# Why Psionics is broken and what to do to fix it



## wildstarsreach (Aug 6, 2006)

I personally love to play Psionics characters.  I do see where they have distinct advantages as well as limitations.  Most of their powers are short range.  This does not balance that all the powers do not have dice limits unlike Arcane or Divine spell casters.  1st and 2nd level spells have between 5 and 7 dice damage typically.  3rd and 4th are at 10 dice, 5th and 6th at 15 dice and 7th and 8th are limited to 20 dice.  The Arcane or Divine spellcasters have to prepare their spells in advance.  They have a greater selection and theoretically more versatility, but experience gained is generally based on direct results.  Also, they don’t have the 3 components of verbal, somatic and material components that spell casting has.  To add, a Psionic character can make a concentration check to stop a visible display from being seen that he/she did something.  A spellcaster would have to take several feats for this kind of stealth spellcasting to equal what you get with Psionics.

The feats for Psionics powers just add cost to the powers unlike spellcasting which adds that the spells have to be memorized at higher levels to utilize their advantages.  To cast a maximized and empowered fireball would be an 8th level memorization doing 90 pts.  An energy burst 3rd level of fire by an equivalent manifester of 15th level, would do 94 points of damage.  Not much more but this could be done round after round till the cows come home or the psion runs out of points.  Now look at disintegrate, a maximized disintegrate would be a 9th level spell memorized doing 204 points vs. 156 points for the equivalent manifester.  This is provided that the creature fails a fortitude save.  The manifester will have at least 6-10 tries at disintegrating the opponents vs. 1-2 for the spellcaster.

What is even more the problem is the prestige class Cerebremancer.  Both Arcane and Psionics use the same prerequisite intelligence.  The wizard class makes it possible for a psion to go all out on the offensive with his Psionics and use his wizard class to supplement the defensive.  

Given the above premises, let’s look at powers by level.  Any not mentioned are not unbalancing in general.  Specific combos could make them a problem.  

1st level powers

Crystal Shard:  This should be limited to 5 dice.  It’s great to give another damage option of physical damage vs. energy damage.

Energy Ray:  This should be limited to 5 dice.  This is so broken at medium to high levels because you the option of any of the 4 types of energy to utilize.  A spellcaster has to memorize the specific type of spell or take separate feats to be able to substitute different energy types.  That is one feat per energy type.  There is an alternate to having one type of energy known at the beginning and either having a feat to add different energy types and/or a knowledge skill, “elements” to add an additional type of energy every 10 ranks that they have in it.  This would be for all the energy powers here.  The first energy power would also determine the higher level powers taken later as the character advances.

Force Screen:  This should not have augmentations.  A spellcaster has to have a higher level spell to get more armor class.

Inertial armor: This should not have augmentations either.  This is double dipping compared to the spellcaster.  Combined with Force Screen at 17th level, the manifester could get a 30 AC.

Mind Thrust:  This is the real power gem that should be limited to 5 dice.  A 15th level manifester who has the empower and maximize feats could do 135 points on a failed will save.  There aren’t many creatures that can take much of this kind of damage.  It does a d10 per level which is well above any other damaging power without a special condition.

Vigor: This is the other gem of the 1st level Psionic powers and should be limited to 5 power point total for augmentation.  The 25 extra hit points per use exceeds the second level spell false life which gives a d10 + 1 point per level of the caster to a maximum of 20.

2nd level powers

Ego Whip:  This should cap out a 5 dice of charisma damage.  It’s great against most creature that use innate spellcasting or charisma base powers.

Concussion Blast:  This should be limited to 7 dice.  This is yet another type of damage, force, very few defenses.

Energy Adaptation Specified:  As Energy Adaptation.  This should be a 3rd level power to make it equivalent to the spellcasters ability to protect.

Swarm of Crystals:  This should be limited to 7 dice.

Energy Missile:  As with Energy Ray but limited to 7 dice.

Energy Push:  As with Energy Ray but limited to 7 dice.

Energy Stun:  As with Energy Ray but limited to 7 dice.

3rd level powers

Energy Bolt and Energy Burst: As with Energy Ray but limited to 10 dice.

Energy Retort and Energy Wall:  As with Energy Ray about different types of energy.

4th level powers

Energy Adaptation:  This should be changed to have an augmentation more than 1 type of energy.  The advantage is to have multiple types of energy defended against.  For a 4th level power, this outstrips the Arcane of divine spellcasters at 3rd level spells.  Otherwise, this should be a 6th level power because it defends against 5 types of energy simultaneously up to 30 points each per attack.  The possible other fix is that you can put this up multiple times, each guarding against a specific type of energy.


5th level powers

Energy Current:  As with Energy but limited to 15 dice.

Psychic Crush:  This power should be at 6th where save or die spells begin.

True Seeing:  This should be 6th since its spellcaster equivalent is 6th.

6th level powers

Breath of the Black Dragon:  This should be limited to 15 dice.

Psionic Disintegrate:  This is possibly the most unbalancing power.  At 17th level, the current Psion I have in play can do 23 disintegrates at the minimum of 11 power points and 14 times at full manifester power.  A sorcerer at 17th level could only do 6 of these.  The potential of having to deal with so many disintegrate can be anti-climatic for both the DM and players when this power so often used.  A way to fix this would be to have a DC 20 fortitude save for the Psion.  If he makes it by 3 or more, he could use the power on the next round.  If the Psion makes the save from 0 to +2, he must wait one round.  If the Psion fail, he must wait 2 rounds.  If the Psion rolls a 1, he may not use the power for the rest of the encounter.  This represents that this power is very draining upon the Psion.

7th level powers

Energy Conversion:  As with Energy Adaptation.  If this is unchanged, then it should be an 8th level power.

Energy Wave:  As with Energy Ray but should be limited to 20 dice.

Ultrablast:  This should be limited to 20 dice.

The 8th and 9th level powers seem to be balanced.  Adding Feats that would increase dice limits as the spellcasters have, and feats that would allow different types of energy with the dice limits would go a long way to fixing what most DM’s have in complaints about Psionics.  I don’t think that this will entirely fix all the problems but would go a long way to powering down the overwhelming power a Psion can bring to a game.


----------



## (Psi)SeveredHead (Aug 7, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> I personally love to play Psionics characters.  I do see where they have distinct advantages as well as limitations.  Most of their powers are short range.  This does not balance that all the powers do not have dice limits unlike Arcane or Divine spell casters.  1st and 2nd level spells have between 5 and 7 dice damage typically.  3rd and 4th are at 10 dice, 5th and 6th at 15 dice and 7th and 8th are limited to 20 dice.  The Arcane or Divine spellcasters have to prepare their spells in advance.  They have a greater selection and theoretically more versatility, but experience gained is generally based on direct results.  Also, they don’t have the 3 components of verbal, somatic and material components that spell casting has.  To add, a Psionic character can make a concentration check to stop a visible display from being seen that he/she did something.  A spellcaster would have to take several feats for this kind of stealth spellcasting to equal what you get with Psionics.




The stealthy manifesting is poorly explained. I think a psion manifesting a power would be obvious, in the sense that they're concentrating on something. If they manifest a Charm power, maybe no one would notice. But if they manifest Recall Death, people will look suspiciously at them.



> The feats for Psionics powers just add cost to the powers unlike spellcasting which adds that the spells have to be memorized at higher levels to utilize their advantages.  To cast a maximized and empowered fireball would be an 8th level memorization doing 90 pts.  An energy burst 3rd level of fire by an equivalent manifester of 15th level, would do 94 points of damage.  Not much more but this could be done round after round till the cows come home or the psion runs out of points.  Now look at disintegrate, a maximized disintegrate would be a 9th level spell memorized doing 204 points vs. 156 points for the equivalent manifester.  This is provided that the creature fails a fortitude save.  The manifester will have at least 6-10 tries at disintegrating the opponents vs. 1-2 for the spellcaster.
> 
> What is even more the problem is the prestige class Cerebremancer.  Both Arcane and Psionics use the same prerequisite intelligence.  The wizard class makes it possible for a psion to go all out on the offensive with his Psionics and use his wizard class to supplement the defensive.
> 
> ...




Seeing how you have to pay for extra damage dice, I disagree.



> Energy Ray:  This should be limited to 5 dice.  This is so broken at medium to high levels because you the option of any of the 4 types of energy to utilize.  A spellcaster has to memorize the specific type of spell or take separate feats to be able to substitute different energy types.  That is one feat per energy type.  There is an alternate to having one type of energy known at the beginning and either having a feat to add different energy types and/or a knowledge skill, “elements” to add an additional type of energy every 10 ranks that they have in it.  This would be for all the energy powers here.  The first energy power would also determine the higher level powers taken later as the character advances.




I agree it's way too flexible when it comes to selecting energy types. I disagree with the damage limit, however. The power point cap - no more power points can be spent on a power than your manifester level - still applies.



> Force Screen:  This should not have augmentations.  A spellcaster has to have a higher level spell to get more armor class.




Hmmm... maybe I should agree with this one.



> Inertial armor: This should not have augmentations either.  This is double dipping compared to the spellcaster.  Combined with Force Screen at 17th level, the manifester could get a 30 AC.




I disagree with this one, though. (And an AC of 30 isnt' that great at 17th-level anyway.) There are better Mage Armor spells. I think Mage Armor should have had scaling (or higher level versions should have been included) in the core rules. So I blame Mage Armor for this one.



> Mind Thrust:  This is the real power gem that should be limited to 5 dice.  A 15th level manifester who has the empower and maximize feats could do 135 points on a failed will save.  There aren’t many creatures that can take much of this kind of damage.  It does a d10 per level which is well above any other damaging power without a special condition.




I agree that 1d10 per power point is excessive. I don't agree on the damage limit.



> Vigor: This is the other gem of the 1st level Psionic powers and should be limited to 5 power point total for augmentation.  The 25 extra hit points per use exceeds the second level spell false life which gives a d10 + 1 point per level of the caster to a maximum of 20.




I think the Mind's Eye version (basically 3 temporary hit points per manifester level) was more blanaced than 5/level. Vigor doesn't last nearly as long as False Life. I don't think it's fair to compare it.



> 2nd level powers
> 
> Ego Whip:  This should cap out a 5 dice of charisma damage.  It’s great against most creature that use innate spellcasting or charisma base powers.




This one could have been Will negates. I don't see a need for a cap _per se_, but maybe it scales too well.



> Concussion Blast:  This should be limited to 7 dice.  This is yet another type of damage, force, very few defenses.




It's also a single target power (at least, single target without augmentation). I don't think this power needs to be changed.



> Energy Adaptation Specified:  As Energy Adaptation.  This should be a 3rd level power to make it equivalent to the spellcasters ability to protect.




Maybe.



> Swarm of Crystals:  This should be limited to 7 dice.




No.



> Energy Missile:  As with Energy Ray but limited to 7 dice.




EM needs more change than that.



> Energy Push:  As with Energy Ray but limited to 7 dice.




No.



> Energy Stun:  As with Energy Ray but limited to 7 dice.




Fix the save DC issue, and maybe nerf the Electricity variant. I don't think the damage dice need to be capped.



> 3rd level powers
> 
> Energy Bolt and Energy Burst: As with Energy Ray but limited to 10 dice.




Doesn't need that cap. It has an ML cap.



> Energy Retort and Energy Wall:  As with Energy Ray about different types of energy.




Probably right on this one. The amount of damage dealt is pretty small, though.



> 4th level powers
> 
> Energy Adaptation:  This should be changed to have an augmentation more than 1 type of energy.  The advantage is to have multiple types of energy defended against.  For a 4th level power, this outstrips the Arcane of divine spellcasters at 3rd level spells.  Otherwise, this should be a 6th level power because it defends against 5 types of energy simultaneously up to 30 points each per attack.  The possible other fix is that you can put this up multiple times, each guarding against a specific type of energy.




I'd forgotten this one.



> 5th level powers
> 
> Energy Current:  As with Energy but limited to 15 dice.




Doesn't need the cap, but might be overpowered compared to Call Lightning.



> Psychic Crush:  This power should be at 6th where save or die spells begin.




I don't like this one. It's like Phantasmal Killer ... but I never liked that spell. But on that note, Phantasmal Killer is a save or die 4th-level spell.



> True Seeing:  This should be 6th since its spellcaster equivalent is 6th.




It's a 5th-level cleric spell, and a Seer special from 2e.



> 6th level powers
> 
> Breath of the Black Dragon:  This should be limited to 15 dice.




Nope.



> Psionic Disintegrate:  This is possibly the most unbalancing power.  At 17th level, the current Psion I have in play can do 23 disintegrates at the minimum of 11 power points and 14 times at full manifester power.  A sorcerer at 17th level could only do 6 of these.  The potential of having to deal with so many disintegrate can be anti-climatic for both the DM and players when this power so often used.  A way to fix this would be to have a DC 20 fortitude save for the Psion.  If he makes it by 3 or more, he could use the power on the next round.  If the Psion makes the save from 0 to +2, he must wait one round.  If the Psion fail, he must wait 2 rounds.  If the Psion rolls a 1, he may not use the power for the rest of the encounter.  This represents that this power is very draining upon the Psion.




That's not a good way to fix it. That's a penalty rather than a limit. You can't force the psion to roll a "one".



> 7th level powers
> 
> Energy Conversion:  As with Energy Adaptation.  If this is unchanged, then it should be an 8th level power.




Maybe. I need to use this one more.



> Energy Wave:  As with Energy Ray but should be limited to 20 dice.




No need. Metacap applies. Doesn't need the multiple energy types. I only recall one power like that from 2e, and it didn't do great damage.



> Ultrablast:  This should be limited to 20 dice.




No need. Metacap applies.



> The 8th and 9th level powers seem to be balanced.  Adding Feats that would increase dice limits as the spellcasters have, and feats that would allow different types of energy with the dice limits would go a long way to fixing what most DM’s have in complaints about Psionics.  I don’t think that this will entirely fix all the problems but would go a long way to powering down the overwhelming power a Psion can bring to a game.




Well, I disagree on the damage dice cap, because of the lack of free scaling. If psions had something like free scaling, then such caps would make more sense.

I think the biggest offender on the list is Disintegrate and other save-or-die powers.


----------



## Psion (Aug 7, 2006)

Okay, not going to peicemeal through this, just re-emphasize: Since you pay a PP for every dice of damage, you are effectively paying the cost of a higher level power when you increase damage. Capping it (beyond the PP limit of the character's manifester level) makes no sense.

Think of it this way. Normally you expect a 3rd level spell like fireball to be capped at 10 dice. So letting a psion pump a 3rd level power to 11 dice is bent, right? Wrong. If he is paying 11 PP for the ability, he is paying the equivalent of a 6th level spell, whose cap is higher than 10.


----------



## Kid Charlemagne (Aug 7, 2006)

The only major issue I've run into as a DM with multiple Psions is with Mind Thrust.  It just is too easy for the Psion to blast the more weak-willed enemies into oblivion, and the all-or-nothing aspect only partly acts as a brake on its use.


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 7, 2006)

Psion said:
			
		

> Okay, not going to peicemeal through this, just re-emphasize: Since you pay a PP for every dice of damage, you are effectively paying the cost of a higher level power when you increase damage. Capping it (beyond the PP limit of the character's manifester level) makes no sense.
> 
> Think of it this way. Normally you expect a 3rd level spell like fireball to be capped at 10 dice. So letting a psion pump a 3rd level power to 11 dice is bent, right? Wrong. If he is paying 11 PP for the ability, he is paying the equivalent of a 6th level spell, whose cap is higher than 10.




Again, a 1st level power like Energy Ray is still a 1st level power even if you spend 17 PP.  Spending 17 PP does not make it a 9th level power.


----------



## Psion (Aug 7, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> Again, a 1st level power like Energy Ray is still a 1st level power even if you spend 17 PP.  Spending 17 PP does not make it a 9th level power.




I agree. Neither shold it be. Though you have paid the power cost for a 9th level power, you only paid the "powers known" cost of a 1st level power. But since you are effectively overpaying at that point if you are paying 17 PP compared to a power of the same level, capping it at a low dice total is sort of pointless.


----------



## Lorgrom (Aug 7, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> Again, a 1st level power like Energy Ray is still a 1st level power even if you spend 17 PP.  Spending 17 PP does not make it a 9th level power.




No it just costs as much as a 9th level power.

After reading the thread, I have a feeling your base problem stems from a point based magic/psionic system vs the slot based system. The point based system they decided to use for psionics is quite balanced. The Psion (or Wilder or Psiwarrior or ...) exchanges the equlivent of a higher spell slot (more PP to active the power as powerful as they wish) to get that additional effect. A better way view powers as having somekind of Meta effect already built into the description. Your still limited by your level (hence the max PP you can spend to manifest). While spells on the other had do increase in power without costing the mage a higher level spell slot. Going with your view, a Fireball would always do 5d6 damage as a level 3 spell, but if you wanted it to do 7d6 then it would use up a 4th level spell slot.


----------



## Nifft (Aug 7, 2006)

In my experience, Psionics is as balanced as Sorcery.

Psions don't ever feel like they have enough Power Points. 

 -- N


----------



## DreamChaser (Aug 7, 2006)

IIRC, the greatest potential weakness of powers like Inertial Armor is that no matter how heavily you augment them, they remain 1st level powers (or what ever base level they started as). This makes for easy dispel.

The energy powers are great yes. I have always thought that this is the way that 3e was going to do spells when I first saw the sneak peak as to the energy desciptors and such. I have always asked myself "why only FIREball?" Now clearly, this allows psions to really tailor their powers to the situation they are in. That is great for them.

BUT

The augmentation cost makes it really easy to burn through your PP really fast.

And as I have said before in threads like this, the greatest imbalance from Psionics comes from the fact that all too often they are only incorporated on a piecemeal basis. There are numerous magical items, monsters, and powers that can make a psionic character's life a living hell, draiing power points, inflating costs, etc. If these are not incorporated along with the psion, then the psion is way too strong in campaigns with only a few encounters.

I know that someone is going to retort that they don't want to have to throw a brain mole or a catapsi spell against the psionic character every day; that it is not realistic and ends up an intentional attack specifically against the psion.

I respond in advance that you don't have to. Do it once or twice without pulling punches and the IDEA that it COULD happen will change the behavior of all but the most foolhardy players. Each day he will have to wonder if today he will need some extra points later to account for an encounter with eyes of power leech, a thought eater, or a psion with catapsi or power leech.

This is equivalent to a wizard or sorcerer. Each of these two classes could choose to use all their spell slots on offensive spells. Heck, all of their 2nd through 4th level slots could go to scorching ray (with some prepared with energy substitution and or heighten spell). 5th through 7th could be spent on disintegrate, and 8th and 9th could be spent on polar ray. First level spells could be used for mage armor and a few utility spells.

BUT no wizard (and few sorcerers) would ever do such a thing; why? because what if they need dispel magic at some point during the day? what if they encounter a creature with an insanely high touch AC or that is incorporeal? What if they encounter a golem? Each of these concerns (which only come into play because the DM plans a range of encounters during the day) keeps the wizard from loading up on just ray spells.

Just my thoughts.

DC


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 7, 2006)

Lorgrom said:
			
		

> No it just costs as much as a 9th level power.
> 
> After reading the thread, I have a feeling your base problem stems from a point based magic/psionic system vs the slot based system. The point based system they decided to use for psionics is quite balanced. The Psion (or Wilder or Psiwarrior or ...) exchanges the equlivent of a higher spell slot (more PP to active the power as powerful as they wish) to get that additional effect. A better way view powers as having somekind of Meta effect already built into the description. Your still limited by your level (hence the max PP you can spend to manifest). While spells on the other had do increase in power without costing the mage a higher level spell slot. Going with your view, a Fireball would always do 5d6 damage as a level 3 spell, but if you wanted it to do 7d6 then it would use up a 4th level spell slot.




Nope, that is not what I'm saying.  Spells go up automatically but have dice limits.  The manifester level limit is the amount of points spent in a particular round.  This would include all the enhancements.  Having a dice limit would in no way stop people from playing Psionic characters but might give those DM's who have completely outlawed them in their campaigns to reconsider.  I'm playing a 17th level Psion 4/Wizard 3/Cerebramancer 10 without the restrictions I suggested.  A couple of the players and the DM have expressed reservations that it's broken.  I understand where they are coming from.  I love the versitility and can see where in some cases that in order to challange my character, he may be killing several of the other character in our campaign.

I've played since the 70's and played the old Arduin system by David Hargrave which was a mana point system.  This allowed that you could cast a fewer high level spells or scads of lower level spells or any combination in between.  If you were 10th level casting a fireball, it would only do 5 dice unless you paid the cost again to do 10 dice.  I love the system that allows me on the fly to do what I'm doing but may DM's see this as abusive and won't allow it in.  I'm suggesting something in the middle ground that would allow more of these characters in gameplay.  

A wizard of 12th level will lose to a Psion of 12th level 75-80% of the and with Temporal Acceleration will win more often.  This means that the Wizard is under powered compared to the Psion or the Psion is over powered.  My suggestions pull the Psion back to a 55-70% win ratio.


----------



## Rystil Arden (Aug 7, 2006)

> A wizard of 12th level will lose to a Psion of 12th level 75-80% of the and with Temporal Acceleration will win more often. This means that the Wizard is under powered compared to the Psion or the Psion is over powered. My suggestions pull the Psion back to a 55-70% win ratio.




Uh, no they don't.  Your suggestions don't really fix any of the beefs that any of the psi-haters have with psionics.  All they do is force psions to waste higher-level powers known for their blast spells because you've put in place an artificial cap on augmentation.  I'm really not sure you understand exactly what you're doing:  Say I'm a 10th-level Psion with Energy Bolt and Energy Ray.  By your system, Energy Ray is capped at 5, but I can still manifest a 10d6 damage Energy Bolt for 10 PP and hit lots of enemies.  Eliminating your limit, I can still manifest the same Energy Bolt, or I could manifest a 10d6 energy ray for the _same price_ of 10 PP and hit one enemy.  You haven't really weakened the Psion at all--you've just forced Kineticists to waste more powers known.


----------



## Drowbane (Aug 7, 2006)

Nifft said:
			
		

> In my experience, Psionics is as balanced as Sorcery.
> 
> Psions don't ever feel like they have enough Power Points.
> 
> -- N



True that! My poor Warforged Psion (shaper) is always running out of Power Points before the end of a session. :/  

I think I'd be happier with D&D magic if it worked more like Psionics.  Spellpoints, spells scaling with augmentation rather than autoscaling, etc.


----------



## Drowbane (Aug 7, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> ...If you were 10th level casting a fireball, it would only do 5 dice unless you paid the cost again to do 10 dice.  I love the system that allows me on the fly to do what I'm doing but may DM's see this as abusive and won't allow it in.  I'm suggesting something in the middle ground that would allow more of these characters in gameplay...




Ya do realize that you can't Augment a power cost higher than your Manifester level, right?  A 5th level Psion can deal 1-5d6 with Energy Ray.  The cost for the 5d6 ER is the equivent of just using a 3rd level power.  Compare this to a 5th level Wizard casting a fireball.  Sure the Psion can do it alot more often, but the Wizard is hitting multiple targets.  The psionic equivilent is a 4th level power.

Edit: Oh, and in case nobody else has said it yet...

Welcome to ENworld!


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 7, 2006)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Uh, no they don't.  Your suggestions don't really fix any of the beefs that any of the psi-haters have with psionics.  All they do is force psions to waste higher-level powers known for their blast spells because you've put in place an artificial cap on augmentation.  I'm really not sure you understand exactly what you're doing:  Say I'm a 10th-level Psion with Energy Bolt and Energy Ray.  By your system, Energy Ray is capped at 5, but I can still manifest a 10d6 damage Energy Bolt for 10 PP and hit lots of enemies.  Eliminating your limit, I can still manifest the same Energy Bolt, or I could manifest a 10d6 energy ray for the _same price_ of 10 PP and hit one enemy.  You haven't really weakened the Psion at all--you've just forced Kineticists to waste more powers known.




Again, this assumption is wrong.  Energy bolt is a 3rd level area affect attack.  Yes, you do 10d6 of fire which is +1 per die and the enemies reflex save for 1/2 damage.  Energy ray if it hits, does not reduce.  Twin power feat would allow you for 11 PP to do 2 5d6 rays of fire that are +1 per die.  If both hit, that would be 45 points of damage average.  The same for the single bolt would be 45 points on an average for 10 PP if they fail their save.  The average for a bolt attack by a Wizard would be 35 points.  Not only are psionics better, but their averages are superior to Wizards and Sorcerers.

To ask you, why is there an artificial cap on Arcane and Divine spellcasters.  It's called game balance.  Why shouldn't Psionic characters have to live by the same rules.  Why is it when Psions manifest fire and cold it's at +1 point per die, and sonic is at -1 per d6 and electricity is +2 to the DC to save.  Spellcasters get none of these benefits, why are Psionic characters getting this freebee.  My suggestions attempt to bandaid what I have found is an anti-psionic camp through most of the role-players that I in almost 30 years of gaming find.  I understand the system and abuse it perfectly since the DM has let me go by the rules as written.  I see a failing with the system in which a set of classes that a lot of people want to play and a lot of DM's ban.  Get out of the box and look at what point you would be unwilling to play these classes.


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 7, 2006)

Drowbane said:
			
		

> True that! My poor Warforged Psion (shaper) is always running out of Power Points before the end of a session. :/
> 
> I think I'd be happier with D&D magic if it worked more like Psionics.  Spellpoints, spells scaling with augmentation rather than autoscaling, etc.




I'll tell you, I've never run out of points since around 10th level.  But being a multiclassed wizard/psion help.


----------



## Rystil Arden (Aug 7, 2006)

> My suggestions attempt to bandaid what I have found is an anti-psionic camp through most of the role-players that I in almost 30 years of gaming find. I understand the system and abuse it perfectly since the DM has let me go by the rules as written. I see a failing with the system in which a set of classes that a lot of people want to play and a lot of DM's ban. Get out of the box and look at what point you would be unwilling to play these classes.




You aren't fixing what the anti-psionics folks find to be the problem, though.  It would be like taking away Survival and Spot as class skills of the Barbarian to appease someone who said "Barbarians are too strong at fighting".  

Your example of Twin Power is actually a bad choice on the part of the Psion (sheer augmentation beats out Twin Power at level 11, since 11d6 > 2 5d6s)



> Again, this assumption is wrong.




Actually, it isn't.  You say it's not and then misdirect away to a different issue without explaining this statement.  It proves, most likely, that you either don't understand or are choosing to ignore the opportunity cost inherent in the power point system and are too caught up on 'but it's a 1st level power that can do high damage' to see that it doesn't matter if it's a 1st level power or a 9th level power if it costs the same number of PP to manifest.

There are many ways to attempt to fix psionics to appease the psi-haters.  Limiting the energy attacks to one energy as you suggest is one of them.  Creating those arbitrary caps is not.  It does not weaken Psions at all except insomuch as the blasters are forced to spend more powers known on attack powers.


----------



## Drowbane (Aug 7, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> I'll tell you, I've never run out of points since around 10th level.  But being a multiclassed wizard/psion help.




Possibly doesn't help that I'm a gestalt Fighter | Psion... I burn alot of PsPs just prepping for combat. (Vigor, Share Pain x2, Force Screen - if I have time, an Astral Construct or two)


----------



## Someone (Aug 7, 2006)

Wildstarsreach, I don´t think you are getting the rationale behing capping for spellcasters and not capping for psionics. 

Spellcasting capping makes sense because no matter how high level the spellcaster becomes, the resources invested in casting the spell remains static. A Magic Missile spell is always prepared in a 1st level slot, no matter if the wizard is level 1 or 20. If he´s level 1, he spends a 1st level slot and deals 1d4+1. If he´s level 20 and without capping, casts magic missile, he´d do 10d4+10. Resources spent remain constant, but benefit provided augments freely: the spell becomes better with time. 

With psionic powers, on the other hand, if you spend 1 pp in, say, energy ray, you always get 1d6 damage (or 1d6+1, or 1d6-1). It doesn´t matter if you are level 1 or 20, you spend 1 pp and get 1 die. While the cost quickly becomes trivial, you always get the same effect, no matter what. If you want to improve the effect, you have to pump PP in it; say you spend 10 extra power points to deal 11d6.

Now is when you say "That´s broken! a 1st level power shouldn´t do so much damage!" But the power remains a 1st level power on paper. You´re not spending 1 pp any more, you´re spending 11. With 11 pp you´d be manifesting otherwise a 6th level power: instead of energy ray, he´d be using Disintegrate, or an augmented Energy Current or whatever, with probably greater effect and the same cost.

With spells that doesn´t happen. A 10 dice magic missile will be vastly inferior to a 9th level spell, but the resources invested on it will continue to be a meager 1st level slot. A 1st level slot may become too good if allowed to freely scale too much; that´s why there are caps on them. Maybe 10 dice are too much, but how about 5 dice?

Now suppose you cap psionic powers. At 11th level, instead of being manifesting Energy Ray and Disintegrate, the psion is manifesting only Disintegrate (because energy ray capped long ago and is no longer useful). You´ve not made the psion less potent: you made him a one trick pony, stuck with low level powers he´ll never use. You didn´t solve the supposed problem with psions (that they can manifest many high level powers) and alienated why many like about psionics (that they are flexible). Summarizing: you made psionics worse.


----------



## frankthedm (Aug 7, 2006)

(Psi)SeveredHead said:
			
		

> I disagree with this one, though. (And an AC of 30 isnt' that great at 17th-level anyway.) There are better Mage Armor spells. I think Mage Armor should have had scaling (or higher level versions should have been included) in the core rules. So I blame Mage Armor for this one.



Thats why there are _bracers of armor _ in the core rules. 

I'd say the greater mage armor spell is broken, but on the other hand it really useful against PCs with a monster caster with non associated spellcaster levels. Slap _practiced spellcaster _ on the critter and the whole dungeon can have a +6 armor bonus when the PCs come calling.


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 7, 2006)

Someone said:
			
		

> Wildstarsreach, I don´t think you are getting the rationale behing capping for spellcasters and not capping for psionics.
> 
> Spellcasting capping makes sense because no matter how high level the spellcaster becomes, the resources invested in casting the spell remains static. A Magic Missile spell is always prepared in a 1st level slot, no matter if the wizard is level 1 or 20. If he´s level 1, he spends a 1st level slot and deals 1d4+1. If he´s level 20 and without capping, casts magic missile, he´d do 10d4+10. Resources spent remain constant, but benefit provided augments freely: the spell becomes better with time.
> 
> ...




Again, you say I don't understand.  I do understand how it works and enjoy using it only to the point that my group also enjoys playing.  My character shouldn't always be the center spotlight, our group is a bunch of heroes that have banded together to stop the darkness.  My goal is not to keep the status quo but to start a discussion on what to do to fix the situation.  If you state a problem, you should at least to to state a possible solution.  This may not be what is needed to fix the situation but I'm open to other ideas that will correct the current problem.  "DM's hating psionics."

The problem is that the powers a character have are always equal to the newest one that the character just earned.  This is against the way that DND has been based on.  You begin small and end big.  Your beginning stuff while more powerful than when you started your is useful, it isn't equal to the stuff that you recently aquired.

If you don't like my suggestions, then give me alternatives as that will help solve the problem.  You attack my suggestions without looking at what my goal is.  Thanks in advance.


----------



## FireLance (Aug 7, 2006)

DreamChaser said:
			
		

> IIRC, the greatest potential weakness of powers like Inertial Armor is that no matter how heavily you augment them, they remain 1st level powers (or what ever base level they started as). This makes for easy dispel.



Actually, it doesn't make them any easier to dispel since dispel is based on caster (or manifester) level. It does mean that _globe of invulnerability_ (and its lesser version) will suppress their effects, though.


----------



## FireLance (Aug 7, 2006)

The way I see it, the problem with psionics is that a psion can potentially create more higher-level effects per day than a sorcerer. A sorcerer gets six 9th-level spell slots, six 8th-level spell slots, and six 7th-level spell slots at 20th level, before adding bonus slots for high Charisma. A 20th-level psion who augments all his powers to 20 PP can manifest seventeen such powers, all of which are effectively equivalent to 9th-level spells, from his base PP alone.

One way I thought of to balance this was to have some sort of recent manifesting effect that further limited the amount of PP a psionic character can spend on his powers. Say, each power reduces the amount that could be spent on subsequent powers by 2. If a psionic character goes 1 round without spending PP, this cap goes up by 1, to his normal limit. So, in the first round of combat, a 20th-level psion could spend 20 PP on a power. In the second round, he can only spend 18 PP. If he does not manifest any powers on the third round, he could spend 19 PP to manifest a power in the fourth. This will require more bookkeeping for the player running the psionic character, but makes it less likely that he will dominate combat, especially in the later rounds.


----------



## Thanee (Aug 7, 2006)

FireLance said:
			
		

> A 20th-level psion who augments all his powers to 20 PP can manifest seventeen such powers, all of which are effectively equivalent to 9th-level spells, from his base PP alone.




10th-level spells, actually. 

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Suldarr'essalar (Aug 7, 2006)

> The feats for Psionics powers just add cost to the powers unlike spellcasting which adds that the spells have to be memorized at higher levels to utilize their advantages. To cast a maximized and empowered fireball would be an 8th level memorization doing 90 pts.



1. You're reffering to the maximal damage a spell can do, right (empowered damage is not maximised)? 
2. Beside the fact that that metapsionic feats also require a manifester to expend psionic focus, so without psionic meditation feat, you can use metapsionic feats once every two rounds. And of course you can't use two metapsionic feats (since you cannot be twice psionicly focused at the same time) without additional 2 feats! And if having those 3 feats you can do it 1 every 2 rounds (without psionic meditation 1 every 3 rounds).
3. Energy burst deals damage to all creatures within 40ft away from manifester. You need to get all those creatures near you before manifesting energy burst.


> Now look at disintegrate, a maximized disintegrate would be a 9th level spell memorized doing 204 points vs. 156 points for the equivalent manifester. This is provided that the creature fails a fortitude save. The manifester will have at least 6-10 tries at disintegrating the opponents vs. 1-2 for the spellcaster.



1. Well, a maximised disintegrate cast by 20th level caster deals 240 points of damage. 
A manifester can manifest maximised disintegrate dealing 192 points of damage (using 20pp equivalent of 10.5 spell slot), or manifest a standard 40d6 disintegrate using the same number of power points. 
2. A manifester in order to use 40d6 disintegrate must use 20pp (10.5 spell slot), while a wizard uses 6th level spell slot to do the same amount of damage.
3. After using all power points on those disintegrates psion can do nothing, while wizards 1st level spells (5d4+5 magic missiles) are still useful (and he didn't use them!).


> Crystal Shard: This should be limited to 5 dice. It’s great to give another damage option of physical damage vs. energy damage.



Too bad it's subject to Damage Reduction.
Another thing, you must pay 20pp to get 20d6 damage of it. Hence you need to use higher level spell slot to get more damage out of 1st level power. Spells are caped because it would be highly unbalanced to let first level spell deal 10d4+10 points of damage (uncaped magic missile cast by 19th level wizard/sorcerer).


> Force Screen: This should not have augmentations. A spellcaster has to have a higher level spell to get more armor class.



Augmentation is nothing more than an equivalent of a higher level spell slot. And shield stops magic missiles!


> Inertial armor: This should not have augmentations either. This is double dipping compared to the spellcaster. Combined with Force Screen at 17th level, the manifester could get a 30 AC.



Check out 3rd level Greater Magic Armor from Spell Compedium and tell me how many power points must a manifester use to get that bonus?


> Mind Thrust: This is the real power gem that should be limited to 5 dice. A 15th level manifester who has the empower and maximize feats could do 135 points on a failed will save. There aren’t many creatures that can take much of this kind of damage. It does a d10 per level which is well above any other damaging power without a special condition.



Beside the fact that it doesn't deal any damage on a succesful save, it's close range and it's mind affecting, so at higher levels there are lots of creatures immune to this power.


> Vigor: This is the other gem of the 1st level Psionic powers and should be limited to 5 power point total for augmentation. The 25 extra hit points per use exceeds the second level spell false life which gives a d10 + 1 point per level of the caster to a maximum of 20.



To get the power of second level spell, vigor must be augmented only by 2pp. That gives 15hp compared to d10+1/level.  Comperable? Yes!
Broken? No!


> Ego Whip: This should cap out a 5 dice of charisma damage. It’s great against most creature that use innate spellcasting or charisma base powers.



Good power, but mind affecting with close range. Spellcasters have high will saves, so it's not as effective as it seems.


> Concussion Blast: This should be limited to 7 dice. This is yet another type of damage, force, very few defenses.



1d6/2 levels? Sometimes it's worth it, but mostly it's beter to use 1d6/level powers 


> Swarm of Crystals: This should be limited to 7 dice.



As with crystal shard, it's subject to DR.


> Energy Missile: As with Energy Ray but limited to 7 dice.
> 
> Energy Push: As with Energy Ray but limited to 7 dice.
> 
> ...



Why the limitation? Seriously, I don't get it. If I have to pay 15pp on 1st level energy ray to get 15d6 points of damage its just as if I'd use 8th level power, except that augmented energy ray is still treated as 1st level power so it's stopped by every glob (i.e. lesser glob of invulnerability).


> Psychic Crush: This power should be at 6th where save or die spells begin.



If you happen to notice it has DC of a 1st level power, it's mind affecting and close range.



> Psions don't ever feel like they have enough Power Points.



So true 



> Again, this assumption is wrong. Energy bolt is a 3rd level area affect attack. Yes, you do 10d6 of fire which is +1 per die and the enemies reflex save for 1/2 damage. Energy ray if it hits, does not reduce. Twin power feat would allow you for 11 PP to do 2 5d6 rays of fire that are +1 per die. If both hit, that would be 45 points of damage average. The same for the single bolt would be 45 points on an average for 10 PP if they fail their save. The average for a bolt attack by a Wizard would be 35 points. Not only are psionics better, but their averages are superior to Wizards and Sorcerers.



So twin energy ray if hits deals 10d6+10 to one target (11pp). You have to expend psionic focus. An equivalent of 11pp is a 6th level spell... hmm... chain lightning: 11d6 to one target and 5d6 to 11 secondary targets. 



> Again, you say I don't understand. I do understand how it works and enjoy using it only to the point that my group also enjoys playing. My character shouldn't always be the center spotlight, our group is a bunch of heroes that have banded together to stop the darkness.



If you'd understand, you wouldn't suggest capping powers 
And as for being in the spotlight, try more encounters durring one day.


> The problem is that the powers a character have are always equal to the newest one that the character just earned. This is against the way that DND has been based on. You begin small and end big.



Psions begin small (d6 - d10 damage), and and big (40d6, bend reality, and stuff like that).


> The way I see it, the problem with psionics is that a psion can potentially create more higher-level effects per day than a sorcerer. A sorcerer gets six 9th-level spell slots, six 8th-level spell slots, and six 7th-level spell slots at 20th level, before adding bonus slots for high Charisma. A 20th-level psion who augments all his powers to 20 PP can manifest seventeen such powers, all of which are effectively equivalent to 9th-level spells, from his base PP alone.



True, but he can do 17*40d6 (disintegrate) = 680d6
Sorcerer can do: 6* 5d8 [lesser orb of X] + 6* 5d6 [Snilloc's Snowball Swaarm] + 6* 10d6 [fireball] + 6 * 15d6 [orb of X] + 6*15d6 [cone of cold] + 6* 40d6 [disintegrate] + 6* 20d6 [delayed fireball] + 6* 60d6 [empowered disintegrate] + 6* 24d6 [meteor swarm] = 1134d6 + 30d8 if I'm not mistaken.


----------



## Tikiman (Aug 7, 2006)

@wildstarsreach:  Someone did a very good job of pointing out to you just why psionic powers don't need effect caps and why adding those caps would not help the system any.  I'd also like to point out that you keep comparing Psion damage dealing ability to that of a Wizard, but neglect to mention that arcane damage dealing is worth about as much as a bard in a hack and slash campaign.  By making damage dealing 'overpowered' the psion simply made it a viable tactic for another 5 levels or so (but it's still pretty meh level 15+).

Now for some helpful suggestions.  If you find a psionic character is overshadowing everyone else the first thing you should do is figure out where exactly the problem is.  Speak with the other players and try to find out exactly how they feel overshadowed.  Perhaps the other players don't mind that they aren't top dog in every encounter, but are instead unhappy because the DM doesn't highlight their strengths and aptitudes.

If you've got a cleric/druid in the party and they're being outdone by a psion then it's a simple fact that the cleric/druid just isn't trying.  If the psion was built very well with combat in mind but the rest of the party made more 'natural' characters then it's only logical that the well built class will shine in it's area of expertise.  If the other players wanted a combat able character, but are simply built poorly, then work with the DM to reforge the character into something with more heft.  On the flipside, it may be easier to gimpify the psionic character to the average level of the party (e.g. swapping Overchannel for Toughness).

Another common occurrence is that your DM isn't throwing the 'default' 4 encounters per rest cycle at the players.  This is perfectly understandable, but the players may be metagaming an advantage out of it.  All casters are able to abuse this situation, but psions often do it best.  So soft-cap the psion to 20% of his PP per encounter (with the DM giving him subtle hints when it's boss time and he can throw around another 10% or so).  This assumes that the CR of the encounter is the same as the party's level.  If your fights are on average tougher, give the psion an extra 10% for every CR the encounter is above the level of the party.  This forces the player to ration his PP and helps prevent 'nova' problems.

Possibly the worst problem you may have is that your DM simply isn't producing challenging encounters.  If he only throws a single monster at you (never ever ever ever ever ever a good idea) then ask him to put more minions in encounters.  If he continually throws the same type of monster at you that's not good either.  You eventually learn their weaknesses and exploit them without realizing it.  And maybe the monsters he's constantly throwing at you are simply weak to whatever effect you're using.  If all the enemies have high AC, nice DR, good fort/will saves, but only have so-so HP, poor ref saves, and no energy resistance then a blaster type is going to shine bright.  A lack of variety may be your problem.

Your DM may also just be playing stupid monsters who's only ambition is to fling themselves at the nearest pointy object.  If you are high enough in levels to have a PrC, then you're powerful enough to have a small reputation.  Intelligent enemies, especially casters, should take advantage of that and prepare accordingly.  If energy damage is your big thing then the enemies could have Globes of Invulnerability.  And never underestimate the power of fighting fire with fire.  Ever thought of giving the villain a Psionic Tattoo of Energy Adaptation?  Players who metagame should be shot with a hammer.  DM's who don't metagame should be shot with a hammer twice.


----------



## Someone (Aug 7, 2006)

> Again, you say I don't understand. I do understand how it works and enjoy using it only to the point that my group also enjoys playing




Where did I say that you don´t understand all psionics? I said that you didn´t understand an aspect of it: how an augmented 1st level power should not be compared to a 1st level spell anymore, but to higher level powers. Several other posters also did that, and reading your answers I had clear that you didn´t get the concept at all. Hence my post.



> My character shouldn't always be the center spotlight, our group is a bunch of heroes that have banded together to stop the darkness. My goal is not to keep the status quo but to start a discussion on what to do to fix the situation.




Good for you. Now that you contributed with your anecdotal evidence, let me do the same with mine. In the campaing I DM a couple years ago the players once almost complained that "the rogue did everything", because he has the wits to infiltrate a mansion and spy the bad guys. The group also included a ftr/clr that could squish the halfling in combat like a bug, and a wizard loaded with utility spells. The point was that the rogue´s player was effective and intelligent, not that the rogue class is overpowered. 

In another campaing I play a mystic theurge who rarely prepares anything else than utility, buff and divination spells, with some summon monster spell for combat: an almost pure support character. But somehow, he´s many times more than his share of spotlight and defeated the most recent BBEG almost by himself* (a lich) with a combo of Silence and Telekinesis spell. Yet the majority here thinks that mystic theurges are underpowered. Maybe it´s the same with your character, I don´t know. 

*Actually, the party´s monk helped, using the poor mute and pinned lich as a punching bag. But you get the point.



> The problem is that the powers a character have are always equal to the newest one that the character just earned




I concede that for Astral construct and Energy Missile this is true. But high level powers are as a rule more powerful than augmented low level powers.



> If you don't like my suggestions, then give me alternatives as that will help solve the problem




I suggest that to find a good solution, one must first identify the problem. As you noticed, I don´t think the problem isn´t on unlimited scaling.


----------



## Thanee (Aug 7, 2006)

The problem is, that whatever inherent balance the PP system has totally falls apart at higher levels, because it grows in too many dimensions at once. One of the biggest issues is what FireLance has mentioned above.

It's an inherent flaw of the system's foundation.

The best idea I have to solve this problem is to give psionic-users two PP totals, each equal to half their regular PP total, one of which can only be used to pay for the base cost of powers, while the other can only be used for augmentation.

Then all powers with augmentation would need to be evaluated and many of them changed in some subtle way, so that there are almost no low level powers anymore, which have the full effect of high level powers with augmentation (i.e. _Astral Construct_ is one of those that do, while _Energy Ray_ is a power that does not). This is alright to some degree, but not to the extent it has currently.

In addition, some powers should be drastically reduced in flexibility. Especially the whole energy line comes to mind, which need to be split up into four individual powers each with a definite energy type.

And scaling needs to be removed from all powers (there are a few, which do scale without the need for augmentation; the most prominent example is _Dispel Psionics_, _Metamorphosis_ is another).

Then the Psion class itself needs to be altered in a way, that it gains new power levels on even levels starting at 4th, as normal for spontaneous casters as well.

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Question (Aug 7, 2006)

Is it just me or do psionic powers seems to work similar to how arcane/divine magic would work with a spell point system?


----------



## Thanee (Aug 7, 2006)

Those systems are both pretty similar (and certainly one is based on the other).

The spell point system is even more broken, though. 

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Question (Aug 7, 2006)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Those systems are both pretty similar (and certainly one is based on the other).
> 
> The spell point system is even more broken, though.
> 
> ...




Why?


----------



## Thanee (Aug 7, 2006)

Because spells still fully scale there, unless they deal damage. That means you can cast HUGE amounts of spells per day, which all scale to full effect.

The augmentation in the psionics system is meant to address this issue, and is a whole magnitude better than the stuff they have done with the spell point system, but ultimately also fails.

Bye
Thanee


----------



## (Psi)SeveredHead (Aug 7, 2006)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> Thats why there are _bracers of armor _ in the core rules.
> 
> I'd say the greater mage armor spell is broken, but on the other hand it really useful against PCs with a monster caster with non associated spellcaster levels. Slap _practiced spellcaster _ on the critter and the whole dungeon can have a +6 armor bonus when the PCs come calling.




You think it's broken? Well, I disagree with that. I don't see why mages are only allowed to use 1st-level spells (other than Polymorph) to boost their AC.


----------



## Question (Aug 7, 2006)

But you have to pay more spell points in order to do more than minimum level damage.


----------



## Malum (Aug 7, 2006)

comparison

Take a level 10 Warmage, 10 Wizard, 10 Sorcerer, 10 Druid, 10 Cleric and a 10 Psion have them pick all the most damaging spells/powers they can and you tell me who causes the most amount of damage. All relative stats 18, no magic or psionic item.


Im thinking the order will be 
#1) Warmage ..."it is what I do"
#2 Sorcerer
#3 Psion
#4 Druid
#5 Wizard
#6 Cleric

although this is a "guess"
Malum


----------



## Question (Aug 7, 2006)

Why would the sorcerer do more damage than the wizard?


----------



## (Psi)SeveredHead (Aug 7, 2006)

Question said:
			
		

> Why would the sorcerer do more damage than the wizard?




Over time, since it has so many spell slots that scale freely.


----------



## Valor (Aug 7, 2006)

Hi well I’d just like to say this is my first post at EN world. 

I’ve been following this discussion about Psionics with great interest. As a Dm and a player I have used and have had used on me Psionics. And I got to say while there are some things I think needed to be hammered out, for the most part I really enjoy Psionics. 

I think one of the key things people forget when talking about Psionics is that it is hard to compare it in some ways to the standard spell slot magic system. While yes it there are spells and powers that are very close in comparison there is so much about the systems respectfully that are different. And this is in no way a bad thing. 

While I will be the first to say it there are some powers and ideas in Psionics that I find are a bit hard to fit into a match. Such things are the Metamorphosis family of powers and things like temporal acceleration. At the same time these more often then not are the same aspects of the magic system that most people have issues with as well. So it is a mute point. Overall I find that the Psionics system is one of the most balanced aspects of D&D. Well now that everyone must think I am insane let me see if I can explain. 

The key and most important world in Psionics is versatility. Truth be told it is the most flexible of “magic” systems I have yet to run into in D&D. Hence the classes and powers of those classes should really reflect this. With this in mind the augmentation system is great. Since Psionic powers are not free leveling in most areas (the exception being normally range and duration), the augmentation of powers becomes very very important. Also the rule that is the core of augmentation, you can’t augment a power higher then you manifester level. This alone is one of the most balancing mechanics in Psionics. Here is an example, a Wiz/Sor casts Fireball at tenth level dealing 10d6 damage. A Psion at the same level manifesting Energy Ball at a base of 5d6 with a cost of 9 pp augmented by 1 pp to a total damage of 6d6. While yes the Save for reflex/fortitude might be higher because it is a higher level power but I don’t believe that really makes up for the 4d6 lose of damage dice. Not to mention that Energy Ball is a discipline power. 

That brings me nicely into the next point. Disciplines play a very important role in the life of a Psion. I have recently started playing a telepath discipline and the one think I have noticed the most if a severe lack of standard damage dealing powers. While this can be fixed with the application of a feat it is a costly expense to spend a feat for a power such as Energy Ball, which is something all caster/manifester should have. Disciplines really do help shape what kind of character your Psion will be. It can be easily said that with the way Disciplines work the Psion class can be considered to be really multiple classes in one. With that said the only class with damage deal ability to spare is the Kinetisist. All other Psions you will find are very hard pressed to go up toe to toe with damage dealing power of the most basic kind. 

While many of you have expressed concern over the fact that Psions could potentially manifest more higher level powers in one day then a slot based caster there is no other way to put it, you are absolutely right they can. So what? It’s a basic principle of the point based system that something like that would happen. As I have mentioned before the Psion is the most flexible of all caster/manifester classes. As such it is his right to do such things. While it many upset matches to have so many high powers being slung around. It does two things that are very counter productive to a Psion. One is that is drains his powers points at a phenomenal rate, augmentation aside slinging 19 pp powers around will drain you quickly no matter what you think. Secondly it will draw the attention of what ever it is you are using these powers on and that is bad for oh so many reasons, not the least of which is that now you are much significantly lower on points. While a Manifester has the option to hide his manifestation displays, for most powers and situations this is a useless option. The big flaming ball of energy is not hidden, but the slimy goo that radiates from you is…see my point? For an example lets look at the disintegrate power. While with the Psionic version of Disintegrate you deal 22d6 of damage right off the bat that  number never changes. The magic version levels as high as 40d6 if I am correct, I might not be, but I know it is higher then Psionics. So even though theoretically and practically the Psion can manifest Disintegrate more times a day then a Wizard or Sorcerer they can not do as much damage with the single power as the other can. At the same time it cost a lot of pp to throw around the Disintegrate power (even though it is watered down from the magic version). One thing you might want to consider is that as the new rules for disciplines goes in Psionics now, the Disintegrate power is one of the major damage dealing powers for non-Kinetisists. 

I feel it has to be said that the idea of “capping” the number of dice a power can do it counter productive. It’s a horrible idea. With the way augmentation works (if properly used) there is no need to cap the dice because they are effectively capped anyway. This is a sure way to “break” the idea of Psionic powers.  

The biggest reason I find that people have issues with Psionics is that the find that Psionic characters outshine the other characters in a party. While I don’t necessarily think this is true I can very well understand why this is though so. I think I should say before I continue that it is HARD FACT that at high levels caster/manifester classes will be more powerful then non-caster/manifester classes. If this I something that you cant abide then I would recommend finding a new game. More often then not most Psionic characters can be very self-reliable to some extent, depending on the context of you campaign (I don’t mean Psionic content) and how the other players in the party are, this could be a big deal. Also I have noticed while DMing that it always turns out to be the more creative or advanced players who chose to play a Psionic class. With that said it is only natural that they might stand above the rest. But it is a game of teamwork and it is up to the individual players to realize this and to keep their ego and “my stick is bigger then your stick” mentality from the game. 

Lastly I would like to address the idea that the pp system loses its balance and becomes broken at high levels. I am utterly confused by this. I cannot see in any way how the pp system changes in any which way at high levels. If anything it is what keeps the high Psionic powers from becoming unbalanced. Please if someone could please explain this in better light then convoluted random seeming judgment

As I said before nothing in D&D is perfect and Psionics is no exception. But I have always found that the Psionic system to be the most balanced of them all. From the powers, to feats to prestige classes I have found it to be a great addition to any campaign and a very balanced and well thought out material (and this includes the Complete Psionic). Unlike the magic system, which is so crowded with things from so many different settings and places. I have recently read a copy of the Spell Compendium in great detail. Afterward I had to strongly suppress my urge to sit down and cry at the madness they had unleashed in that one book. If you want to compare magic to Psionics in a balanced/unbalanced way, then I don’t see how after reading that book you could call Psionics broken or unbalanced.  

This is my first post on these board so please do not be sparing in your responses.


Valor


To Home and Victory


----------



## Laman Stahros (Aug 7, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> If you don't like my suggestions, then give me alternatives as that will help solve the problem.  You attack my suggestions without looking at what my goal is.  Thanks in advance.



The problem lies in the fact that you see a problem in the unlimited scaling and the others don't.

If a problem can not be agreed upon, how can they help you fix it?

How many encounters per rest period does your GM throw at your group?

How experienced are the rest of the players in your group?

These questions (and others that I can't think of right now) need to be answered before we can understand why you see unlimited paid scaling as a problem.

P.S: As a 1st edition GM, I remember how horrible psionics was back then. I very nearly banned psionics from my 3rd edition game as a knee jerk reaction to those memories. I have talked to numerous GMs and I have found that there are two main reasons that psionics get banned.

1) They remember how bad they were in old editions and haven't even looked at the new rules.

2) They hate the "new age, psuedo-science" feel of the new rules.

Neither of these reasons will be fixed by what you propose.


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 7, 2006)

Laman Stahros said:
			
		

> The problem lies in the fact that you see a problem in the unlimited scaling and the others don't.
> 
> If a problem can not be agreed upon, how can they help you fix it?
> 
> ...




We have 3 DM's in our group.  The DM for the current campaign has let psionics in but is expressing that there are problems because of the character's self-reliance.  He can't stop the character like a wizard due to no verbal, somantic or material components.  Being able to sling disintegrates one round after another if I so choose to do with the character.  Having the ability to tailor every his damage potential around most creatures weakness.  Add to this that with the energy adaptation 4th I can protect myself versus most of the damaging spells.  In addition, if a fighter or monster get through to my character, Temporal acceleration pulls his fat out of the fryer.  Plus in non-combat my character can hide his manifestations for the info gathering.

The other 2 DM's for the future campaigns have banned psionics only based on my play when they run.  Not totally influenced from the past.  The DM's have 15 to 25 years each of play.  

Upto 3-5 encounters between rest periods.  With having a Cerebramancer, the Wizard/Psion combo gives my character more gas to a constantly sustain being effective character in almost every situation.  At 18th level I plan to take the unconditinal feat to make up for the few times when the DM has had us by the balls and my character has gone down.  Getting blasphemied before we can act sucks.


----------



## Thanee (Aug 7, 2006)

Malum said:
			
		

> comparison
> 
> Take a level 10 Warmage, 10 Wizard, 10 Sorcerer, 10 Druid, 10 Cleric and a 10 Psion have them pick all the most damaging spells/powers they can and you tell me who causes the most amount of damage. All relative stats 18, no magic or psionic item.




That's a fairly pointless comparison, though. 

But the order of things, nonetheless is very easy:

1) Psion
2) Warmage
3) Sorcerer
4) Wizard

Leaving the Cleric and Druid out there, since while they have some decent damage dealing spells, they are clearly no match for the others in that regard.

Now you want to know why the Psion is 1st, right?

That's because you asked for "the most damaging spells/powers" up there. And the Psion will be able to manifest much more of those 5th-level powers as compared to the 5th-level spells, the others have (they cannot cast their most damaging spells with lower level slots). 

Now if you want to know how many damage dice in total each class can shell out in a day, the Psion will clearly be on the last spot, of course. That lies in the nature of the power point and augmentation system, and as I said already, it's pointless to compare things this way. A comparison between the two system must be much more complex and must take multiple factors into consideration.

How about we compare the number of +10 dispels everyone can do in one day? That's equally silly, but nonetheless quite interesting to look up. 

Bye
Thanee


----------



## KuKu (Aug 7, 2006)

Thanee said:
			
		

> That's a fairly pointless comparison, though.
> 
> But the order of things, nonetheless is very easy:
> 
> ...




+10 dispels? Sorcerers start off with six third level spells, five fourth level spells, and three fifth level spells. This means he has fourteen +10 dispels per day before charisma is taken into account. The psion has eighty eight power points so he has seventeen +10 dispels. The sorcer is behind by three dispels but still has all of his zeroth, first, and second level slots remaining. If the first and second level slots were used for magic missile and scorching ray respectively then he would have seventy eight dice of damage, which is about the same amount of dice that the psion has for the day before he did anything else at all. Although after all of those dispels the psion only had three power points left. I would like to see this damage comparison though, can anyone make a good representation of that?


----------



## Valor (Aug 7, 2006)

Well I don’t know if your DM should be actively trying to stop a character form doing something that he is supposed to be doing but…if he can’t figure out a way to do so then he simply needs to get much much more creative. So a Psion doesn’t have to carry around flammable bat poo…(thanks god). But there are other ways to stop a Psion from being effective. Depending on the Discipline it could be as easy as using a different type of monster. Or maybe make the Psion blind. While this wont necessarily stop him it might slow him down enough. There is also the option of getting the Psion confused or knocked out or some combination of those. With the exceptions of spell components all the same ways to take out a Wiz applies to a Psion. My personal favorite is grapple. Not to mention deal some damage around 12-17 point of damage every two round to the Psion and well have fun making concentration checks. 

Wildstarsearch even with the ability to sling disintegrates around often, (even every round if need be). The Power is no where near as powerful (no pun intended) as the Arcane version. It still nears a ranged touch attack (And is applicable to critical hits by the same rules) and has a Fort save for most Damage. And it is a massive drain on power points. Also deepening again on Discipline of your character well this could be one of the few true damage dealing Psionic powers. Not to mention one of the best damage dealing powers, since it can effect even creatures with out Con scores. And it is a fairly high level power so that’s a big counter balance to its constant use as a primary damage dealing power.  

I have a questions for you Wildstarsearch. How, if at all, do you make the distinction between your Arcane or Psion powers when you are choosing them? By this I mean do you use your Arcane ones for buff spells and your Psions ones for damage dealing or visa versa?  Also how do you find playing a cerebramancer? I don’t mean how is the class but do you find it well balanced and not a broken Prestige Class? It has been hotly debated why with so many if not nearly all the Psionic prestige classes lacking full manifester level progression why they would bother to include one with both arcane and Psionic full caster/manifester levels. Personally I always found it to be a one of the few areas where Psionics in my mind is unbalanced. I actually prefer that prestige classes to not have full manifester progression; it makes the base classes more worthwhile. What do you think?

Valor


To Home and Victory


----------



## Thanee (Aug 7, 2006)

KuKu said:
			
		

> The psion has eighty eight power points ...




...with an ability score of 10, yeah. 

Bye
Thanee


----------



## RigaMortus2 (Aug 7, 2006)

I don't think the problem is with Psionics, more than it is with the character build.  Any class/race/combo can appear "broken" depending on how you build it.  Either (a) you built a very good character, better than your fellow PCs or (b) they built their characters poorly, at least not as good as your character.  I think that is where the problem lies.


----------



## Valor (Aug 7, 2006)

Since comparing Dispels and Damage dealing powers is not a proper comparison between the classes what do you think would be a proper comparison, between say Cleric, Sorcerer, Wizard, Psion and Wilder.

Valor

To Home and Victory


----------



## Thanee (Aug 7, 2006)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> I don't think the problem is with Psionics, more than it is with the character build.  Any class/race/combo can appear "broken" depending on how you build it.  Either (a) you built a very good character, better than your fellow PCs or (b) they built their characters poorly, at least not as good as your character.  I think that is where the problem lies.




This is a good point. I think you are wrong on your assessment, though.

While with most classes you actively need to pursuit a certain path to brokenness while building up the character (and surely most classes can end up there in some fashion), you can pick pretty much any Psion in existance and will end up with the problems that have been outlined several times by now on various occasions.

That's a pretty telling difference, IMHO.

The difference here is, that with most classes, there are some specific options or combinations of options, which are broken, while with psionics, it lies in the system.

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Thanee (Aug 7, 2006)

Valor said:
			
		

> Since comparing Dispels and Damage dealing powers is not a proper comparison between the classes what do you think would be a proper comparison, between say Cleric, Sorcerer, Wizard, Psion and Wilder.




Effect.

Comparing specific spells/powers doesn't say much, unless you do the comparison for all spells/powers in existance.

I prefer to compare something like spell level times (capped) caster level vs power level times manifester level. That's a pretty generic value, which gives a good estimate of the effect of one spell casting or power manifesting.

Of course, then you still need to take other factors into consideration, i.e. the lack of verbal, somatic and material components Psions enjoy, or the better choice the spellcasters have for their chosen spells.

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Valor (Aug 7, 2006)

I wish some one would explain to me in what ways the Psionics system is broken or at the very least show me where it has already been discused. People just seem to state it as an unquestionable truth with out justification. 

Valor


----------



## RigaMortus2 (Aug 7, 2006)

Thanee said:
			
		

> This is a good point. I think you are wrong on your assessment, though.
> 
> While with most classes you actively need to pursuit a certain path to brokenness while building up the character (and surely most classes can end up there in some fashion), you can pick pretty much any Psion in existance and will end up with the problems that have been outlined several times by now on various occasions.
> 
> ...




I don't know, I've had no unbalancing problems with any of the Psions I have played.  Sure, he's been in the spotlight in more than one occassion, but so has the other PCs.  And while you can "cast" more higher level powers than a Wizard or Sorc, you also burn through your power point reserve a lot quicker.  I have more of an "issue" with classes that don't have some sort of resource expenditure, such as the Warlock, Incarnate and Totemist. (Well, not really an issue, since I am the one that PLAYS those classes


----------



## Valor (Aug 7, 2006)

Well I think that comparing all power and all spells well while it sounds like a possible way of doing it. Have you even considered the sheer size of the choice arcane and divine have over Psionics? If that were to be the module for comparison I think you would find Psionics just swamped by the sheer volume of Arcane/Divine spells. 

Valor


----------



## Someone (Aug 7, 2006)

@Valor: The arguments I´ve heard for "Psionics are broken" (and I´m just the messenger) are those:

*Psions are too flexible*

Psionics are too good because they can spend their power points the way they want. If they need to manifest may high level powers, they can. If low level utility powers are needed, they can manifest them until the moon turns blue. 

Their damage-dealing powers can deal whatever energy is needed, cherry picking the target´s vulnerabilities.

With scaling, many low level powers (like astral construct or psionic dominate) become defacto high level powers, greatly increasing flexibility and, in practice, number of powers known.

They can apply metapsionics without hindrance except the psionic focus thing: and you can work around that with the right feats.

*Psionic powers are too good*

Astral Construct is noticeably better than equivalent monsters or natural allys; energy misile is much better than any arcane damage dealing spell... the list goes on.

*Psions are hard to counter and defeat*

Psions laugh at conditions that make casting difficult, like being silenced, restrained or being naked and without equipment. Even the dreded grapple becomes a nuisance when your Concentration score is high enough. There´s no condition that impedes manifesting that also don´t restrain spellcasting.

Several powers, like Vigor or Timeless body, make psions very durable and hard to kill compared with the standard wizard.

*Psions have the highest damage potential*

Psions have several powers that gran extra manifestations or actions, like Schism, Temporal Acceleration and Fission. Also, their damaging powers deal more damage than any arcane counterpart. Combining those, and using feats that grans extra foci, a Psion is guaranteed to obliterate whatever they face -spending a large amount of power points- in a single round.


----------



## Thanee (Aug 7, 2006)

Valor said:
			
		

> Have you even considered the sheer size of the choice arcane and divine have over Psionics? If that were to be the module for comparison I think you would find Psionics just swamped by the sheer volume of Arcane/Divine spells.




I'm pretty sure, that I stated pretty much that in the very post you were replying to. 

I always try to look at it from a neutral position, that's why I usually state advantages and disadvantages of both sides. 

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Slobber Monster (Aug 7, 2006)

Someone said:
			
		

> @Valor: The arguments I´ve heard for "Psionics are broken" (and I´m just the messenger) are those:
> 
> *Psions are too flexible*
> 
> ...




I am of the opinion that all these things taken as a whole are indeed a problem. My personal biggest gripe is with the "too flexible" and "too hard to counter" portions of that and I think the free energy substitution is the biggest offender, Get rid of those two problems and "too good" and "highest damage potential" just become regular class differentation.


----------



## Nail (Aug 7, 2006)

Someone said:
			
		

> @Valor: The arguments I´ve heard for "Psionics are broken" (and I´m just the messenger) are those:
> 
> *Psions are too flexible*....
> 
> ...



Wow, *someone*, that's a concise and accurate list.  Well done.

FWIW, I'm one of those DMs who doesn't allow psionics "'cause it's broken".  That said, I'd happily adjust my stance if the above problems were fixed (as a whole).  Complete Arcane, Tome of Magic and Magic of Incarnum take stabs at that, and I appreciate the effort.  So far the 3rd party d20 effort isn't up to the task.

It's pretty clear making a non-Vancian magic system that is balanced is *very* difficult.  Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.  (There's no such thing as a "quick fix" for psionics, for example.)


----------



## Malum (Aug 7, 2006)

I suppose I should thank you for responding to my pointless comparison, thank you. How can a comparison remain germane and accurate (iyo)? I thought giving same stat & same level would prove adequate? It is my belief, though unproven, that a X level Warmage vs. equal level Psion will have more damage output because of free level progression w/ lower level spells as where the Psion will have to spend points for same results-Psion will run out of points before Warmage runs out of spells if both have equal stats. 

Someone in an earlier post replied “how can the DM compete with a Psion manifesting disintegrate over and over”?  Answer have a Sorcerer or a Warmage do same?


EDIT 
I like Psions and have played several but the Arcane casters at higher level will have better selection approximately 4x that of a Psion


Malum


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 7, 2006)

Valor said:
			
		

> Well I don’t know if your DM should be actively trying to stop a character form doing something that he is supposed to be doing but…if he can’t figure out a way to do so then he simply needs to get much much more creative. So a Psion doesn’t have to carry around flammable bat poo…(thanks god). But there are other ways to stop a Psion from being effective. Depending on the Discipline it could be as easy as using a different type of monster. Or maybe make the Psion blind. While this wont necessarily stop him it might slow him down enough. There is also the option of getting the Psion confused or knocked out or some combination of those. With the exceptions of spell components all the same ways to take out a Wiz applies to a Psion. My personal favorite is grapple. Not to mention deal some damage around 12-17 point of damage every two round to the Psion and well have fun making concentration checks.
> 
> Wildstarsearch even with the ability to sling disintegrates around often, (even every round if need be). The Power is no where near as powerful (no pun intended) as the Arcane version. It still nears a ranged touch attack (And is applicable to critical hits by the same rules) and has a Fort save for most Damage. And it is a massive drain on power points. Also deepening again on Discipline of your character well this could be one of the few true damage dealing Psionic powers. Not to mention one of the best damage dealing powers, since it can effect even creatures with out Con scores. And it is a fairly high level power so that’s a big counter balance to its constant use as a primary damage dealing power.
> 
> ...





The character is a Kalashtar Cerebremancer.  With item and varies buff he has a 28 intelligence.  250 PP @ 17th level

Spells are chosen for either powers not taken, party buff, party movement or unique attacks.  If he was Kalashtar, the difference would be 1 less disintegrate of 17 PP at 34 dice/5 dice of which 14 can be done if given time.  Otherwise he could do 24 of them at 11 PP doing 22 dice/5 dice.

Let us drop my dice cap suggestion at this time and focus on the biggest problem, "The versitility".  With all the energy power you can choose at manifestation any one of 4 powers that have advantages versus the spellcaster.  You can with a 4th level power defend against 5 types of powers simultaneously where the spell caster would have to cast 5 3rd level spells just to be equal in defense.

Typical combat
Rd 1:    Temporal acceleration of 15 points for 2 rds, quickened action
     Sub rd 1-1: Schism
     Sub rd 2-1: Vigor of 85 temp HP
     Rd 1 action, cast Mirror image   39 PP expended
Rd 2:    Temporal acceleration of 15 points for 2 rds, quickened action
     Sub rd 2-1: Dragon prophecy full round
     Sun rd 2-2: Energy adaptation
     Rd 2 action, cast Stoneskin
     Rd 2 Schism, mind thrusting or energy ray  30 PP expended
Rd 3:     Temporal acceleration of 15 points for 2 rds, quickened action
     Sub rd 3-1: Inertial Armor to max
     Sub rd 3-2: Force screen to max
     Rd 3 action, Finger of death
     Rd 3 Schism, mind thrusting or energy ray  57 PP expended
Rd 4:     Do whatever helps the party most

By this time the fighters are hurt but my psion is fresh and buffed.  He has a temporary action point (Eberron game) to help hit any target that he may not have hit, AC is 33, the creature if the get into melee will miss fairly often and plenty of temporary hit points to soak up damage.  

126 PP expended and the character is protected and putting out quite abit of damage to help the party and will give out a lot more in round 4-6,  Very few combats against even the toughest monsters go longer than that.


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 7, 2006)

Valor said:
			
		

> Well I don’t know if your DM should be actively trying to stop a character form doing something that he is supposed to be doing but…if he can’t figure out a way to do so then he simply needs to get much much more creative. So a Psion doesn’t have to carry around flammable bat poo…(thanks god). But there are other ways to stop a Psion from being effective. Depending on the Discipline it could be as easy as using a different type of monster. Or maybe make the Psion blind. While this wont necessarily stop him it might slow him down enough. There is also the option of getting the Psion confused or knocked out or some combination of those. With the exceptions of spell components all the same ways to take out a Wiz applies to a Psion. My personal favorite is grapple. Not to mention deal some damage around 12-17 point of damage every two round to the Psion and well have fun making concentration checks.
> 
> Wildstarsearch even with the ability to sling disintegrates around often, (even every round if need be). The Power is no where near as powerful (no pun intended) as the Arcane version. It still nears a ranged touch attack (And is applicable to critical hits by the same rules) and has a Fort save for most Damage. And it is a massive drain on power points. Also deepening again on Discipline of your character well this could be one of the few true damage dealing Psionic powers. Not to mention one of the best damage dealing powers, since it can effect even creatures with out Con scores. And it is a fairly high level power so that’s a big counter balance to its constant use as a primary damage dealing power.
> 
> ...





The character is a Kalashtar Cerebremancer.  With item and varies buff he has a 28 intelligence.  250 PP @ 17th level

Spells are chosen for either powers not taken, party buff, party movement or unique attacks.  If he was Kalashtar, the difference would be 1 less disintegrate of 17 PP at 34 dice/5 dice of which 14 can be done if given time.  Otherwise he could do 24 of them at 11 PP doing 22 dice/5 dice.

Let us drop my dice cap suggestion at this time and focus on the biggest problem, "The versitility".  With all the energy power you can choose at manifestation any one of 4 powers that have advantages versus the spellcaster.  You can with a 4th level power defend against 5 types of powers simultaneously where the spell caster would have to cast 5 3rd level spells just to be equal in defense.

Typical combat
Rd 1:    Temporal acceleration of 15 points for 2 rds, quickened action
     Sub rd 1-1: Schism
     Sub rd 2-1: Vigor of 85 temp HP
     Rd 1 action, cast Mirror image   39 PP expended
Rd 2:    Temporal acceleration of 15 points for 2 rds, quickened action
     Sub rd 2-1: Dragon prophecy full round
     Sun rd 2-2: Energy adaptation
     Rd 2 action, cast Stoneskin
     Rd 2 Schism, mind thrusting or energy ray  30 PP expended
Rd 3:     Temporal acceleration of 15 points for 2 rds, quickened action
     Sub rd 3-1: Inertial Armor to max
     Sub rd 3-2: Force screen to max
     Rd 3 action, Finger of death
     Rd 3 Schism, mind thrusting or energy ray  57 PP expended
Rd 4:     Do whatever helps the party most

By this time the fighters are hurt but my psion is fresh and buffed.  He has a temporary action point (Eberron game) to help hit any target that he may not have hit, AC is 33, the creature if the get into melee will miss fairly often and plenty of temporary hit points to soak up damage.  

126 PP expended and the character is protected and putting out quite abit of damage to help the party and will give out a lot more in round 4-6,  Very few combats against even the toughest monsters go longer than that.


----------



## Thanee (Aug 7, 2006)

Malum said:
			
		

> I thought giving same stat & same level would prove adequate?




Unfortunately, no it does not.



> It is my belief, though unproven, that a X level Warmage vs. equal level Psion will have more damage output because of free level progression w/ lower level spells as where the Psion will have to spend points for same results-Psion will run out of points before Warmage runs out of spells if both have equal stats.




That is so. It doesn't really need to be proven, it's an obvious fact, that when you add up damage dice (one die per point of caster/manifester level of a spell/power, caps included), the casters will get a higher total.

This information, however, doesn't say anything by itself. And that's why I said the comparison this way is pointless, because it takes way too little things into consideration.

For example, I can make a sorcerer with not a single damaging spell, which will be very powerful as a character. If you use damage output over a day to compare classes, this character will be lousy. This is obviously wrong.

Damage is easy to compare, that is why it is often used in comparison, but easy does not equal good. A good comparison takes every important factor into consideration. Comparing damage over a day does not even remotely do this.



> I like Psions...




Nothing wrong with that. 

Bye
Thanee


----------



## RigaMortus2 (Aug 7, 2006)

This is a 17th level character you are describing.  At that level, "brokeness" goes out the window as all bets are off.  Characters of 17th level are supposed to be very powerful and do fantastic things.  Especially casters/manifesters.


----------



## kelvinaw273 (Aug 7, 2006)

*Actually I completely disagree ......*



			
				wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> I personally love to play Psionics characters.  I do see where they have distinct advantages as well as limitations.  Most of their powers are short range.  This does not balance that all the powers do not have dice limits unlike Arcane or Divine spell casters.  1st and 2nd level spells have between 5 and 7 dice damage typically.  3rd and 4th are at 10 dice, 5th and 6th at 15 dice and 7th and 8th are limited to 20 dice.  The Arcane or Divine spellcasters have to prepare their spells in advance.  They have a greater selection and theoretically more versatility, but experience gained is generally based on direct results.  Also, they don’t have the 3 components of verbal, somatic and material components that spell casting has.  To add, a Psionic character can make a concentration check to stop a visible display from being seen that he/she did something.  A spellcaster would have to take several feats for this kind of stealth spellcasting to equal what you get with Psionics.




On the other hand a spellcaster gets lots more spells than a psion gets powers. Also, when a spell inflicts extra damage, does it take up a higher spell slot? That is what a psion augmenting a power has to do, ineffect. Your point about using componants to spellcasting is taken, but then compare the number of spells and powers each has, and the total number of spells a spellcaster can cast compared to fully augmented powers the psionic character can cast, and the spell-caster is well ahead.



> The feats for Psionics powers just add cost to the powers unlike spellcasting which adds that the spells have to be memorized at higher levels to utilize their advantages.  To cast a maximized and empowered fireball would be an 8th level memorization doing 90 pts.  An energy burst 3rd level of fire by an equivalent manifester of 15th level, would do 94 points of damage.  Not much more but this could be done round after round till the cows come home or the psion runs out of points.  Now look at disintegrate, a maximized disintegrate would be a 9th level spell memorized doing 204 points vs. 156 points for the equivalent manifester.  This is provided that the creature fails a fortitude save.  The manifester will have at least 6-10 tries at disintegrating the opponents vs. 1-2 for the spellcaster.




Costing more points is the equivilent of raising spell level to a psionic character. Sure they get 6-10 tries - but what can they do afterwards? After the spellcaster's attempts, they can try umpteen other spells to affect an enemy.



> What is even more the problem is the prestige class Cerebremancer.  Both Arcane and Psionics use the same prerequisite intelligence.  The wizard class makes it possible for a psion to go all out on the offensive with his Psionics and use his wizard class to supplement the defensive.




Not like, say, a Favoured Soul/Sorcerer/Mystic Theurge?



> Given the above premises, let’s look at powers by level.  Any not mentioned are not unbalancing in general.  Specific combos could make them a problem.




All of these take no account of the COST of augmentation, which effectively raises the level of the power - a 1st level power augmented can become the equivilent of a 3rd level spell, but remember that a spellcaster has both the 1st and the 3rd level spell where the psionic (less powers than spells) has only the one power.

Basically, the psionic is no more "broken" than the Warlock or the CoD. What you must consider is the nature of the three kinds of magic. Take three runners: one specializes in the 5000 meters one runs marathons, and one is a sprinter on the 200 meters. Which is best? Well, the marathon runner is the equivilent of the warlock - he can go for longer than the others, but he is slower (less damage output per round). The 5000 meter runner (the conventional spellcaster) can go faster (better damage output per round) and put on a good sprint finish to boot (he can really jack it up if he has too) - but he cannot go for as long; Your typical 3-4 encounter day and he is worn out. Now the psionic is like a sprinter, he can go well faster than either of the others (really amazing damage output over a few rounds) but after that he's done, he has to rest.

Now which of these is broken? Obviously none of them. The psion has to sit back until he is really needed, husbanding his power points until he really has to go for it. The spellcaster can be freeer with his spells, but can still run out, and he can still do a strong burst if he has too. The Warlock can hammer away all day, but has little options when it comes to boosting it. It's all a question of balancing - if the DM allows the party only one encounter a day and lets them rest whenever they want, the psionic is King over the others. If he forces the party onward and onward never letting them rest, the Warlock rules the roost. If either class comes across as "borken" perhaps the DM should reconsider his tactics?


----------



## Suldarr'essalar (Aug 7, 2006)

:|


			
				Someone said:
			
		

> *Psions are too flexible*
> 
> Psionics are too good because they can spend their power points the way they want. If they need to manifest may high level powers, they can. If low level utility powers are needed, they can manifest them until the moon turns blue.



Where's the problem? Take sorcerer for instance: He can do mostly the same, since his lower level spell slots will deal more damage (overall sorcerer has greater damage potential than psions). It's just another approach to flexibility. Whilst Sorcerer can use higher level spell slots for maxing damage, he still has lower level spell slots for extra damage, or utility powers, whereas psions don't. With augmenting powers you effectively use higher level slots to get the same effect as wizards/sorcerers using lower level slots. 
[irony]That's broken. Wizards and sorcerers should use higher level spell slots to get more damage! [/irony]


Their damage-dealing powers can deal whatever energy is needed, cherry picking the target´s vulnerabilities.



			
				Someone said:
			
		

> With scaling, many low level powers (like astral construct or psionic dominate) become defacto high level powers, greatly increasing flexibility and, in practice, number of powers known.



True, but on the other side psions know less powers than sorcerer spells. Not to mention Wilder with only 11 power known at 20th level. 



			
				Someone said:
			
		

> They can apply metapsionics without hindrance except the psionic focus thing: and you can work around that with the right feats.



That's a lie. You need to refocus which takes an action (either full-round, or (blowing a feat) a move action, and requires concentration check; provokes AoO). Furthermore, without another 2 feats you cannot use 2 metapsionic feats the same round (anf if you do, you must refocus twice). There's also no instant metapsionics. 
Some of you say that a sorcerer/wizard must take 3 feats to get rid of components (still spell, silent spell, enshaw materials), psions must take 3 feats to use metapsionics (which is more important than lack of components overall) equally well (psionic meditation, psicrystal affinity and psicrystal containment). The only adventage of this is that psions can manifest quicken power (whilst sorcerers can't).



			
				Someone said:
			
		

> *Psionic powers are too good*
> 
> Astral Construct is noticeably better than equivalent monsters or natural allys; energy misile is much better than any arcane damage dealing spell... the list goes on.



Have you checked Complete Psionics?


			
				Someone said:
			
		

> *Psions are hard to counter and defeat*
> 
> Psions laugh at conditions that make casting difficult, like being silenced, restrained or being naked and without equipment. Even the dreded grapple becomes a nuisance when your Concentration score is high enough. There´s no condition that impedes manifesting that also don´t restrain spellcasting.



The same goes for any creature using spell-like abilities.
It is a problem, but can be easily solved. Just like superman, create (or give) some metal (lead?) ability to negate psionics and you're home.



			
				Someone said:
			
		

> Several powers, like Vigor or Timeless body, make psions very durable and hard to kill compared with the standard wizard.



 :\ And you haven't heard of dispel magic/psionics?



			
				Someone said:
			
		

> *Psions have the highest damage potential*
> 
> Psions have several powers that gran extra manifestations or actions, like Schism, Temporal Acceleration and Fission. Also, their damaging powers deal more damage than any arcane counterpart. Combining those, and using feats that grans extra foci, a Psion is guaranteed to obliterate whatever they face -spending a large amount of power points- in a single round.



Just as if a wizard with one or two prestige classes couldn't do it better :|
Really, the game, and psionic system was designed to have more than one battle each day. That way the player must hold his power and not use nova attacks on the first encounter. It's really that simple.


----------



## Thanee (Aug 7, 2006)

@Suldarr'essalar: Someone's post was listing what - in his opinion and to the best of his knowledge - *others* have stated about psionics... your replies are kinda... off. 

One point:



> True, but on the other side psions know less powers than sorcerer spells.




You are kidding right?

Do you truely want to compare knowing a bunch of 0th level spells with knowing two to four times as many powers of the two highest currently available levels?

Also, did you figure in the powers, which include several spells bundled into one?

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Psion (Aug 7, 2006)

Valor said:
			
		

> Since comparing Dispels and Damage dealing powers is not a proper comparison between the classes what do you think would be a proper comparison, between say Cleric, Sorcerer, Wizard, Psion and Wilder.




Playing a campaign and seeing how much each contributes to the party. 

I think that, except perhaps possibly the wilder, each of those are going to get their licks in.


----------



## Zimbel16 (Aug 7, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> The character is a Kalashtar Cerebremancer.  With item and varies buff he has a 28 intelligence.  250 PP @ 17th level
> 
> Spells are chosen for either powers not taken, party buff, party movement or unique attacks.  If he was Kalashtar, the difference would be 1 less disintegrate of 17 PP at 34 dice/5 dice of which 14 can be done if given time.  Otherwise he could do 24 of them at 11 PP doing 22 dice/5 dice.
> 
> ...





To me, the problem above is obvious: your PC is getting up to 4 actions a round, whereas the rest of the party is (presumably) getting around 1 per round. Of course your spellcaster will dominate in this sort of scenario; your PC should be around as powerful as any 3 or so party members for as long as you can keep this combo up.

My suggestion would be to attack the problem at its root; limit the number of actions. There are three ways in which you gain actions:

Temporal acceleration
Quicken
Schism

I think that the easiest solution is to ban Temporal Acceleration (its the worst offender), and take a different power, then see how your PC pans out. I suspect that you'll get less grumbling from the other players. If that isn't sufficient, ban Schism as well.


----------



## Nail (Aug 7, 2006)

Suldarr'essalar said:
			
		

> Have you checked Complete Psionics?



 

Perhaps you should read over *someone*'s post again.  It was meant as a condensation of all of the points that go under the rubrick "The arguments I´ve heard for 'Psionics are broken'".

I doubt someone's post was meant to include ancilary WotC materials, nor was it meant to be an exhaustive list.


----------



## Psion (Aug 7, 2006)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Also, did you figure in the powers, which include several spells bundled into one?




Contrariwise, did you NOT figure in spells that bundle in several powers, like Telekinesis?


----------



## Sabathius42 (Aug 7, 2006)

You skipped the Warlock when you were discussing damage-per-day.

10th level Warlock has a 5d6 Eldritch Blast.

5d6/round*10rounds/minute*60minutes/hour*24hours/day=72,000d6 damage!

Warlock is broken!!!!

DS

PS:  Note that this post was meant in sarcasm.


----------



## Drowbane (Aug 7, 2006)

Valor said:
			
		

> Hi well I’d just like to say this is my first post at EN world... (snip)




Howdy, great post... and Welcome to ENworld!


----------



## Thanee (Aug 7, 2006)

Psion said:
			
		

> Contrariwise, did you NOT figure in spells that bundle in several powers, like Telekinesis?




Wanna make a list of all spells and all powers which do so?

I would bet, that even with like 10 times (<- pure guess) the amount of spells out there, psionics will easily win that. 

And in the end, only the actually chosen spells and powers for any particular Sorcerer and Psion count, of course, and how many 'multi-power' spells will a Sorcerer have? One? Two? For the Psion that might go into the dozen quite easily.

Saying that a Sorcerer knows more spells than a Psion knows powers is like giving one guy ten quarters and another guy five hundred dollar notes and saying the first guy has more money. 

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Psion (Aug 7, 2006)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Saying that a Sorcerer knows more spells than a Psion knows powers is like giving one guy ten quarters and another guy five hundred dollar notes and saying the first guy has more money.




I wasn't commenting on the known spells thing... I was commenting on the multi-spell/multi-power thing.

I have already come to grips with the fact that the sorcerer is the poor cousin.


----------



## Thanee (Aug 8, 2006)

Psion said:
			
		

> I wasn't commenting on the known spells thing... I was commenting on the multi-spell/multi-power thing.




You were commenting my commont on the known spells thing, though. Just trying to stay on topic. 



> I have already come to grips with the fact that the sorcerer is the poor cousin.




That's a common misconception, yeah. Most people (judging from these boards) who play Sorcerers for some time realize how powerful spontaneous casting is (in most campaigns at least). 

Bye
Thanee


----------



## PallidPatience (Aug 8, 2006)

Many NPCs are smart enough to ready an action to smack you when you start to manifest.

If the NPCs are tactically unintelligent versus one type of attack, that type of attack will dominate. If it happens to be psionics, your psion will be awesome. Do they defend themselves regularly from arcane and divine magic?


----------



## Psion (Aug 8, 2006)

Thanee said:
			
		

> You were commenting my commont on the known spells thing, though. Just trying to stay on topic.




I was interested in the specific statement, not the general topic. If you are making the case that there are powers that drink in several spells, you should recognize their are spells that drink in several powers as well.

There used to be more. And really, the sorcerer got screwed in 3.5 on this score, with spells like emotion and symbol getting parsed out into several spells.



> That's a common misconception, yeah. Most people (judging from these boards) who play Sorcerers for some time realize how powerful spontaneous casting is (in most campaigns at least).




That spontaneous casting is powerful is not the point under debate for me. What is is that the sorcerer pays perhaps too dear a price for it, when stacked up against the other spellcasters.

It didn't take people much time to notice how good a deal the PHB II is for sorcerers. Nonetheless, I would not hesitate to allow it, nor do I hesitate to allow sorcerers to take PRCs that are not net zero gain for the sorcerer.


----------



## Valor (Aug 8, 2006)

Well I hate to say it but your arguments don’t make any sense to me. While I can understand a bit of frustration about the Psion being a very versatile character, I do not see how that is a “Broken” aspect of Psionics. If anything it is the hallmark of Psionics. The only thing I can think of is maybe a sense of unfairness. While a Wizard is all about the massive preparations a Psion is about going on the fly. That aspect alone would give the Psion an upper hand in most situations, especially when the Wizard didn’t have any knowledge about what he is walking into. But at the same time the Sorcerer can do the same thing to a degree. While Even this is balanced out with the number of powers/Spells each knows. And yes this is a MASSIVE balancing factor. Where as a Wizard knows possibly unlimited power, and sorcerer knows 53 spells. A Psion knows 36 powers, and a Wilder knows 11. I am truly sorry but if you can’t see the impact this has on class balance well then I don’t think you truly understand how caster classes work. 

As for Psionic powers being too good…well ok I can concede that there are some powers that ARE really good. But most of there powers are only really effective in a narrow field. While yes there are a number of good buff powers to take keep in mind that if a character stacks up on buff well its more power he wont have for fighting and its less time he will be contributing to the fight other then in the meat shield capacity. 

As for certain powers being too good…well I don’t see how. Most of these have Arcane or Divine counterparts and the ones that don’t are again trademark discipline powers that are not really accessible to all Psions or Widers. Specifically you mentioned the Astral Construct power. Well have you actually read what it does? Ok I agree it is a bit high on the stats for their challenge rating, but that is comparing them to what? I mean there are equally more powerful monsters with the same if not lower challenge rating. And the limit of only one or two if you spend alot of time in a prestige class it’s a big check for the abuse of this power. While the only powers I can think of that are really powerful well they have magical counterparts that do the EXACT same thing. So if you’re trying to say that these overpower full powers are too powerful cause they mirror magical abilities well…that’s a mute point no?

Since when are Psionics hard to counter? Well I guess you could argue that since there is no Psionic counter spelling that countering them outright is no possible. But I mean other then those nasty nasty spell components Psionics are subject to the same rules for casters for doing powers. Give them a bit of damage and then its concentrations check time. Not to mention DISPEL, I would have thought that one being obvious. 

As for Psions having high damage potential…this is a joke right? I mean its such a blatant lie that it seriously makes me wonder if we are all talking about the same Psionics. It is numerically impossible (as long as you follow the rules), that a Psion dishes out more potentially damaging powers then a Wiz or Sorcerer. Arcane or even Divine caster have a massive monopoly on high damage effects. I am not sure where this idea came from but wherever that was, it was clearly from Someone who was not fully informed. The Exact same can be said for those who think Metapsionic feats are too powerful. Most if not all are direct copies from magical version and even then only one can be used at a time with the exception of using ONE feat on ONE power. This says nothing about Psionic Focus, which makes it near impossible for some one to do more then one or two Metapsionic powers in an entire fight. 

Wildstarsearch I hate to say it but your 17th level character is maybe just a bit underpowered. Epic character non withstanding, characters in their High levels are well, the best there are. I mean They are meant to do thing like this. In fact I think I would be very disappointed in my character didn’t do stuff like that at such high levels. Such things are normal. 

Thanee my hat is off to you. You have maybe hit in my mind the one reason that Psionics might be considered to be unbalance. The bundling of similar powers in one. While sometimes this is just a simple augmentation for more targets. But often as is the case with Dominate it’s the grouping of whole families of powers into one power with a stiff augmentation to get different results. While I can really understand why this can be considered unbalanced at the same time it only makes sense. With the way augmentation works, I think these powers would be “Broken” if they were not augmentable in these ways. 

Valor


----------



## Dwarmaj (Aug 8, 2006)

Yes a Psion can go Nova and burn through a bunch of points quickly, but the party as a whole generally pays for it later.

You guys also seem to be overlooking a couple of major issues.
Psionic powers generally don't auto scale. It's been brought up a couple of times, seems to keep getting ignored. A 10th Wizards lightning bolt does 10d6 and uses a 3rd level slot. A Psion manifesting a 3rd level energy bolt does 5d6. He can increase the damage to 10d6 by *spending* more points on it. 

Also, there is no Heighten Power feat. So all of those heavily augmented low level powers are stopped by globe spells and are treated as low level powers verse turning or absorption.

Oh, @wildstarsreach
You spent 126 power point just to buff up for a single encounter? How many encounters per day do you guys run. You should have about 230 (14th Psion with 28Int) power points and can only keep that up 1-2 times. You'll be pretty useless for the 3rd and 4th encounters for the day.

4Psion/3Wiz/10Cerebremancer is < 17th Psion
Sure you gain a lot of low level spells, but you loose out on high level powers, points, feats, and augmentation limits (unless you have Practiced Manifester).

P4/W3/C10 (228psp with 28Int)
Gain Spells levels 1-7, 7,6,6,6,6,4,3,2
Gain Scribe Scroll
Gain ability to use arcane wands/staves, scrolls
Has 14 manifester levels and 13 caster levels (easily dispelled by a 17th caster)
Taking Practiced Manifester does help, but uses a feat (not something this character has a lot of)

P17 (326psp with 28 Int)
Has 3 bonus Psionic/MetaPsionic feats
Has 3 8th and 1 9th level power
Has 17th level Manifester level

The dual caster or caster/manifester classes look good at first glance, but generally aren't as powerful as a straght caster or manifester.


----------



## Tikiman (Aug 8, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> Typical combat
> Rd 1: Temporal acceleration of 15 points for 2 rds, quickened action
> Sub rd 1-1: Schism
> Sub rd 2-1: Vigor of 85 temp HP
> ...




I'm confused.  If you're spending 50% plus of your PP, how are you keeping up for the 3-5 encounters you said your DM throws at you?  And how are you putting 17pp into Vigor?  As a 17th level Cerebremancer your highest ML should be 14.  If you're using Overchannel are you taking into account the Xd8 damage you should be taking every time you use it?  You may want to double check all your abilities to make sure what you're doing is legal.  Pay very close attention to you manifester level.

And in general, this tactic is reffered to as 'going nova' and stems from a pushover DM.  If you are able to regularly do this your DM isn't enforcing those 3-5 encounters.  You need to voluntarily stop metagaming and softcap your PP expenditure at 20% (+10% for every CR the encounter is above your level) per encounter.  A swift M's Disjunction will also deflate your character.  There are also tactics such as; false encounters (illusions), an ambush where you are the first target, and throwing enough minions at you before hand so that you don't have 50% of your PP by the time you get to the boss.  Heck, an evil cleric with Antimagic Field could woop your booty.

The problems you're having are something I've seen and delt with dozens of times.  They stem from two things.  The first is Temporal Acceleration.  DM's who cant challenge there players with multiple encounters fall like kobolds to TA.  Remove that power from your character and see how things work out.  The second is that your DM is a complete and total noob.  He doesn't dispel you.  He doesn't ambush you.  He doesn't target casters first.  Has he ever used a save-or-die effect on you (you seem to be begging for a Finger of Death).  I've seen mobs in DDO with better tactics then him.  Whoever is DMing needs to brush up on the rules more before they try running high level games.

Oh, and could you please post all of your feats (and your discipline)?  This post is begining to gain a familiar odor to it.  A regular on the WotC Psionics forums loves to post problems such as this, but when you ask him to actually give you the character he refuses (because if you build it yourself you find it has somewhere around 20+feats).  While your at it, could we get a list of your magic/psionic items as well?


And about Psionic damage being so overpowered due to versatility, I have to ask, is direct damage really that big of a problem at higher levels?  When your group cleric could be casting Implosion I really don't see how 17d6+17 energy damage is a big deal.


----------



## Storyteller01 (Aug 8, 2006)

We made the house rule that you can increase the effect by spending points, but this increase doesn't include the saves or PR/SR penetration augmentation. For us, it tends to balance out; you can do more damage at higher levels, but it requires the same effort to dispell regardless of your level.

We also brought back the heighten power and equivalent feats from the 3.0 psionics. You can augment SR/PR penetration and save DC's, but you'll pay more for it.

tends to put everyone on equal footing. Your damage output increases over time, all casters need feats to make sure the DC's aren't too low.


----------



## takasi (Aug 8, 2006)

One suggestion I have for psionics is to treat manifestations more like invocations, soulmelds and binding magic and less like the traditional Vancian fire and forget.

First, give a psion his level in power points multiplied by some balancing factor.  Next, to reflect a true mana point system, add a regenerative factor.  The end result is a per encounter, rather than per day, limitation.

For example, a 10th lvl psion would get 10 plus an ability score bonus, perhaps for a total of 12.  Multiply this by a factor of 5 for example to get a total of 60 points.  A psion could use these 60 points for one encounter, and they will not regenerate by a factor of 12 every minute.  

Thoughts?

Of course this would require playtesting to determine what the right multiplier and regenerative rate would be, but I think it would go a long way in limiting what many find frustrating with psionics (whether they are playing beside them or fighting against them): damage potential unrivaled by other classes when all points are expended and power are augmented.  No party wants to go up against a boss that can spam the maximum lvl spell/power for that CR for the entire encounter.  There has to be a trade off similar to magic.


----------



## Psion (Aug 8, 2006)

While a cerebremancer is intriguing to me as a character is some ways, I can't see how it would be overpowering. I think the mystic theurge is the ultimate swiss army knife class, but the cerebremancer lacks that so much because there is more overlap between arcane and psionic. Coupe that with the traditional MT weaknesses related to caster/manifest level and access to high level spells, it's not all you are claiming.

IME, most campaigns of the level the OP is speaking of are rich on high SR creatures. Lacking the levels and the higher level SR-defeating spells seem to be a potentially common handicap.


----------



## Rerednaw (Aug 8, 2006)

Tikiman said:
			
		

> I'm confused.  If you're spending 50% plus of your PP, how are you keeping up for the 3-5 encounters you said your DM throws at you?  And how are you putting 17pp into Vigor?  As a 17th level Cerebremancer your highest ML should be 14.
> ...You may want to double check all your abilities to make sure what you're doing is legal.  Pay very close attention to you manifester level...



Tikiman, you beat me to it.    

If the purpose is to compare apples to apples, I agree that we need a few more facts.  

Character write-up?  (Full stats, items, spells/powers known, etc.)

And since the rest of the party seems to be suffering such a disadvantage, how about posting the stats of other characters in the party?  Even one would help.   

I do agree with Tikiman on the topic that your DM does not appear to know how to handle a buffed caster.  You _Dispel_ them. Target them with no or Fort-save effects.  Heck, I'd have some enemies poison the party's ale at a tavern if it came to that.  I'm sure your party has a few enemies by level 17.  

At 17th level your party should be facing near-epic challenges.  

The point of going nova was also well made.  For whatever the reason, your DM does not run the typical number of encounters.   

There are several very long threads that deal with this subject on the official wotc boards under Psionics.  (It's in the stickied index.)


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 8, 2006)

Valor said:
			
		

> Well I hate to say it but your arguments don’t make any sense to me. While I can understand a bit of frustration about the Psion being a very versatile character, I do not see how that is a “Broken” aspect of Psionics. If anything it is the hallmark of Psionics. The only thing I can think of is maybe a sense of unfairness. While a Wizard is all about the massive preparations a Psion is about going on the fly. That aspect alone would give the Psion an upper hand in most situations, especially when the Wizard didn’t have any knowledge about what he is walking into. But at the same time the Sorcerer can do the same thing to a degree. While Even this is balanced out with the number of powers/Spells each knows. And yes this is a MASSIVE balancing factor. Where as a Wizard knows possibly unlimited power, and sorcerer knows 53 spells. A Psion knows 36 powers, and a Wilder knows 11. I am truly sorry but if you can’t see the impact this has on class balance well then I don’t think you truly understand how caster classes work.
> 
> As for Psionic powers being too good…well ok I can concede that there are some powers that ARE really good. But most of there powers are only really effective in a narrow field. While yes there are a number of good buff powers to take keep in mind that if a character stacks up on buff well its more power he wont have for fighting and its less time he will be contributing to the fight other then in the meat shield capacity.
> 
> ...




Before I comment on Valor, there is a comment that you couldn't metapsionic 2 feats into one power short of epic.  With the feat psicrystal containment, your psicrystal has a focus and your own focus could be spent to use 2 feats.  If you've taken Psionic Meditation, then as a move action instead of full round, you have a focus to use a metapsionic feat every round if you don't have to move more than 5'.

If you take any of the energy powers, this is effectively equivalent to 4 spells each time.  Yes the Socerer and Wizard have more but you bang for the buck is a lot higher.  A 4th level power Energy Adaptation, in one single casting is equal to 5 3rd level spells cast by a cleric.

Let me say this Valor, if as the rules stand, you were required to only play one class for the next year, what would you choose:

1:     Wizard
2:     Cleric
3:     Sorcerer
4:     Psion

Me, I'd choose the Psion.  The rules as they stand favor this class.  You don't think that they are broken.  Fine, I accept that.  That doesn't preclude that you are possibly wrong.  I would like to see a way make this anti-psionic hatred to die down and if you can't see that this system is abusive and needs some scaling back to balance equitably against other classes, I don't know what to do.


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 8, 2006)

Tikiman said:
			
		

> I'm confused.  If you're spending 50% plus of your PP, how are you keeping up for the 3-5 encounters you said your DM throws at you?  And how are you putting 17pp into Vigor?  As a 17th level Cerebremancer your highest ML should be 14.  If you're using Overchannel are you taking into account the Xd8 damage you should be taking every time you use it?  You may want to double check all your abilities to make sure what you're doing is legal.  Pay very close attention to you manifester level.
> 
> And in general, this tactic is reffered to as 'going nova' and stems from a pushover DM.  If you are able to regularly do this your DM isn't enforcing those 3-5 encounters.  You need to voluntarily stop metagaming and softcap your PP expenditure at 20% (+10% for every CR the encounter is above your level) per encounter.  A swift M's Disjunction will also deflate your character.  There are also tactics such as; false encounters (illusions), an ambush where you are the first target, and throwing enough minions at you before hand so that you don't have 50% of your PP by the time you get to the boss.  Heck, an evil cleric with Antimagic Field could woop your booty.
> 
> ...




Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Practiced Spell caster, Dragon Prophesier, Prophesy’s Hero, Practiced Manifester

Telepath

Magic items other than a +6 Headband of Intellect and a Psionatrix of Telepathy are not relevant to the class.

The above is a representation of only one battle in which we had just rested.  Typically only the first round is necessary.  The character would be worse with the feats I suggested of maximize and or empower.

Most people here aren't seeing the problem because they are being too involved with it.  I see because as a veteran gamer of almost 30 years and a 44 year old player, that playing this game isn't just about me but a bunch of friends getting together and enjoying an adventure.  Unfortunately I do my best at surviving and sometimes it shows with the class having more than it should have.  The class isn't balance equitably versus other classes.


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 8, 2006)

Let's change this.  For those of you who don't think psionic is broken, please don't post because I agree that we disagree.  I'm wanting a discussion of those who think that there is a problem and what can we do to fix it.  I want to see solutions.  Telling me I'm wrong or don't understand the system is not why I posted.  Telling me that my DM isn't doing his job is insulting.  He does do a good job and entaining us all.  I'm not looking for the status quo.


----------



## Someone (Aug 8, 2006)

The solution I see is pretty simple: ask your DM to allow you to retrain Schism and Temporal Acceleration for other powers of the same level (and don´t take them again). 

I can´t comment on the Prophecy feat, since I don´t know what it does, but I´ve heard it´s quite powerful too.

3.0 Haste was nerfed for a good reason, and it was a mistake to reintroduce powers that grant extra action. Almost all the "psionics are broken" complains I´ve heard end or include those.


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 8, 2006)

Someone said:
			
		

> The solution I see is pretty simple: ask your DM to allow you to retrain Schism and Temporal Acceleration for other powers of the same level (and don´t take them again).
> 
> I can´t comment on the Prophecy feat, since I don´t know what it does, but I´ve heard it´s quite powerful too.
> 
> 3.0 Haste was nerfed for a good reason, and it was a mistake to reintroduce powers that grant extra action. Almost all the "psionics are broken" complains I´ve heard end or include those.




Thanks, I'll talk to him about that.


----------



## kelvinaw273 (Aug 8, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> Let's change this.  For those of you who don't think psionic is broken, please don't post because I agree that we disagree.  I'm wanting a discussion of those who think that there is a problem and what can we do to fix it.  I want to see solutions.  Telling me I'm wrong or don't understand the system is not why I posted.  Telling me that my DM isn't doing his job is insulting.  He does do a good job and entaining us all.  I'm not looking for the status quo.




Why?

You have voiced an opinion based on certain assumtions. You have asked for comments on your opinion, and some have chosen to point out that they think your initial assumtions are wrong, and why. You have the basis of the cut and thrust of debate here - to then say: "I don't want to hear from anyone who disagrees with me any more" is silly. You may as well say: "I'm wrong but I don't want to have wasted all my effort in re-writing powers so I won't admit it" - at least, that is how it will be interpretted by your detractors.

I've explained why I think you are wrong in your assumtions. Please feel free to counter my arguments, but don't tell me to shut up because you don't want to hear it. That just insults my intelligence and belittles your position.


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 8, 2006)

While I'm a bit uncomfortable with the 'No dissention will be allowed' bit...

"What to do to fix it"

Well, some points:
1.)  Above poster is correct.  Extra Actions are 'tempo'.  Even if not used for direct offense, the ability of extra actions to remove the opportunity cost from buffs and summons is huge.. most buff spells with durations under 1hr/lvl are to some degree balanced by the fact that one either spends precious in-combat rounds casting them, or has to expend the out-of-combat time, effort, and resources to arrange an ambush.  (Save us all from Scry-and-die)
Eliminate your characters ability to gain extra actions, and alot of the problem goes away.  Psionics is notable for gaining this ability earlier than Arcane Magic (Temporal Acceleration, while IMHO inferior even when augmented, occurs earlier than wish Time Stop)

2.)  Singing Synergy, Batman!  The practiced manifester cerebramancer youve got going there is interesting to me.  While classically Ive been somewhat underwhelmed by the double-progression classes (I find giving up higher level spells for scads of lower ones in mulitple areas, coupled with frequent MAD... barring things like Sorc/Favoured Soul... is not a winning combination), you seem to have hit (perhaps unintentionally) on a gem.  By having all of the utility/flexibility/defense of a mages spell list on the left hand, you allow your psion 'right hand' to go crazy-nuts with pure blasting, without ever bleeding off its PsPs over the course of the day to handle all those utility and defensive applications.

3.)  IJNTFU (It's Just Not That Freakin Uber).  With a good feat selection, a good power selection, and some reasonable care, it looks like youve simply built a better more combat effective character than your companions.  This is always an issue in D+D, espc v. 3.0 and higher.  Ive played perfectly good D+D games with the 'My 12th lvl Barbarian should be TOUGH, so I'm taking Toughness....  wee... 3 more HP on top of 150...', and perfectly good D+D games that featured a Fighter/Mage Gish polymorphed into a Hydra and wielding 15 mouth-pick swords (did I mention he had the whole multi-weapon-fighting chain?).  And of course, there is always CoDzilla.....
So find a happy place where your character is something you want to play, and your fellow party members are getting their share of the limelight.  High-powered and low-powered choices in D+D arent 'better' or 'worse'.. their just different, and the GM and players are all well served to know what various players are going to be bringing to the table as far as character creation.  I think that would solve your problem.  

In the alternate, one could simply rework your fellow party members up to your level of performance... your 'See what I can do, aint it broken'... aint broken.  Your 17th lvl.  That doesnt begin to be 'broken', especially considering what it costs you.  By my lights, your 'about right'.... definitely going to out perform a pure fighter (barring decent splatbooking), but definitley not going to outperform anything short of an incompetent druid build of that level, not to mention a serious, tuned CoDzilla (Heck, even core+complete alone!).  That said, redesigning the rest of your party UP rather than you DOWN would change more characters, and change the nature of the game more.. so maybe just drop Schism, Temporal Acceleration, and Practiced Manifester.  Get some item creation feats and spend your XPs to make your friends cooler.
If you want out of the spotlight, you can get there.  Psionics didnt take you there, you did.


----------



## Valor (Aug 8, 2006)

Wildstarsearch I feel from your response that you are under the impression that we are getting a bit harsh. After looking over my recent post I think you are probably right. I apologize, it was not my intention. I very much do not want to inflame anti Psionic hatred. 

About the Metapsionic feats. You’re right I had completely forgotten about the Psionic focus helled by the psi crystal. Since none of my characters I DM for use one nor myself when I play uses one, the idea of them had sloped my mind. Bu yes you are right this is a way to possibly use more then one Metapsionic feat at the same time or to use them in a following consecutive round. The only way I thought it worked was with the Metapower feat from Complete Psionic. But manifesting most (not all), powers is a full round action, and I am almost sure that manifesting Metapsionic powers is always a full round action (except of the Quickened feat). Since getting your Psionic focus back is at least a move action, it is very hard to keep blasting away with Metapsionic feats 

If I had to play a class for a long time I would chose Psion. As I have done since the XPH came out. I find the class to be very enjoyable and I continue to play Psions (mind you I choose different disciplines from time to time). 

It does look like we will just have to agree to disagree. While I don’t believe Psionics is unbalanced, especially when taken into consideration with magic. I do think that it does need some refinement that I have found it to be lacking. While I love the overall flavor and mechanics of the Psionics system, there are parts or it, that seemed to have been really good ideas that were either rushed through to be finished for a deadline or that were never finished at all. I do have a question though. When you say that Psionics (an abusive system) needs to be scaled back to balance with other classes. Do you mean all classes or just the Wizard classes and its Prestige classes? I have always found, especially at higher levels that caster classes of all kinds will outdo the other classes by a lot in many aspects of the game. So I am very curious as to what you want to have it balanced to. 

I am very confused over many of the aspects of your posts Wildstarsearch. You gave a very detailed example of how your character acts in battle and said it was overpowered. Tikiman hit it right on the nose. If you are not facing the proper number of challenges in you campaign then take that into account and realize that most caster classes will be way way too powerful and ban them all. These classes and concepts were tested at length by WotC and they found them to be acceptable. If your campaign doesn’t want to go by the same standards that they were meant to be used and tested in…well how it is that its the concepts that are broken and not the that the style of play makes them broken? Tikiman even had solutions for you as a player and ideas to take to your DM. And you shut him down for it. Why? I figure as (I am assuming) adult D&D players of many years we have enough maturity to have nice civilized talks about something we all have in common and all seem to really enjoy. Heck I have a hard enough time finding people who don’t look at me funny if I tell them I am into D&D that its is very depressing and cruel to be so dismissed and treated in such a way by my comrades in my beloved hobby.

Many people see the problem and a lot of them find your discussions have a lot of merit. Myself included. While I enjoy Psionics a great deal I am always open to the idea that they can be improved in a number of fashions. 

As a 44 years old player how can you go “nova” then decide that there is a problem with the system because you did something you know that you probably shouldn’t have done. Sure most caster class characters can go Nova, but it defeats the purpose of playing the game. As a DM I tell me players that I know that being experienced players that they know how to go “nova” but that they shouldn’t cause it can ruin the game in so many ways. As for cutting out all those who don’t believe the exact same as you. How do you expect to get a proper discussion with only like minded people? While simply telling you that you’re wrong is well…wrong, if they give a detailed and logical explanation then how can you shut them out for it?


Lastly, being that you said it yourself. A 44 year old gamer(that’s rocks by the way) that has been playing for 30 years, a veteran by all accounts. That playing the game is not about you and your buddies getting together and enjoying the adventure. Then what in hell are you playing for?


Valor


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 8, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> Let's change this.  For those of you who don't think psionic is broken, please don't post because I agree that we disagree.  I'm wanting a discussion of those who think that there is a problem and what can we do to fix it.  I want to see solutions.  Telling me I'm wrong or don't understand the system is not why I posted.  Telling me that my DM isn't doing his job is insulting.  He does do a good job and entaining us all.  I'm not looking for the status quo.




I don't mind a discussion but when people tell me that I'm flat out wrong or that I don't understand the system or that my DM doesn't do a good job tends to be insulting.  Many of you decide that you are going to blundgeon me with a sledge hammer to see that the status quo is correct.  That is what I want to avoid.  

I am coming to the end of one campaign in which 3 to 4 times a session I get comments from the other 2 players who will be DM's "And psionics aren't broken?".  They aren't allowing psionics in their campaigns.  I needed discussions on how to scale back so that they might allow them.  

You may not think that psionics is broken but that doesn't make the vast majority of DM's and other players from not allowing them.  I have in 14 months learned very well how to utilize the character I have to great effect.


----------



## Aaron L (Aug 8, 2006)

The vast majority of DMs dont allow psionics?

Really?

Too bad for them.


----------



## KuKu (Aug 8, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> The character is a Kalashtar Cerebremancer.  With item and varies buff he has a 28 intelligence.  250 PP @ 17th level
> 
> Spells are chosen for either powers not taken, party buff, party movement or unique attacks.  If he was Kalashtar, the difference would be 1 less disintegrate of 17 PP at 34 dice/5 dice of which 14 can be done if given time.  Otherwise he could do 24 of them at 11 PP doing 22 dice/5 dice.
> 
> ...




I was just thinking about this post earlier and I thought to myself what good is this character doing for the party? At the end of the third round of combat he has likely done zero damage to the opponents since mind thrust from a schismed mind is unlikely to penetrate most creatures and energy ray cannot be used by it because it has no fingers to point with. At this level the entire combat could easily be over with either the party being nearly destroyed or the bad guys being eliminated. It may look impressive but this character has done nothing to help the group or to hurt the bad guys and everything he has done could easily be taken down by a single spell. Where is the part that actually makes this character any good at anything other than surviving certain kinds of attacks better?


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 8, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> I don't mind a discussion but when people tell me that I'm flat out wrong or that I don't understand the system or that my DM doesn't do a good job tends to be insulting.  Many of you decide that you are going to blundgeon me with a sledge hammer to see that the status quo is correct.  That is what I want to avoid.
> 
> I am coming to the end of one campaign in which 3 to 4 times a session I get comments from the other 2 players who will be DM's "And psionics aren't broken?".  They aren't allowing psionics in their campaigns.  I needed discussions on how to scale back so that they might allow them.
> 
> You may not think that psionics is broken but that doesn't make the vast majority of DM's and other players from not allowing them.  I have in 14 months learned very well how to utilize the character I have to great effect.




Players who like psionics would, if they had 5c for every 'Psionics is Broken' cry, have alot more free time to play D+D.
Perhaps you have been tarred with the broad brush of such complaints, because the phenomenal majority of them stem from misreadings of the rules, inadequate encounters per day and/or non-combat challenges to stretch the Psions more limited resources, or perhaps because Psionics does in fact do some things that other caster classes have not done.

There may be a desensitizing effect going on here... players and GMs are used to Mages doing X, or Clerics doing Y, or Druids doing Z... but Psions are 'the new kid on the block', and when they prove that they can do P (though perhaps being unable to do X, or Y, or Z), where P is something that casters havent classically done well in 3.5, players and GMs respond negatively.

Past editions may also be responsible for it... earlier editions of psionics tended to suffer from their tendancy to be simultaneously very weak, and very subject to abuse.  Given a weak-but-abuseable system, players tended to make those abusive choices.. and shoot right past the 'normal party balance' into minor godhood.  This has made any instance where psionics does anything as well (much less better) than the Arcane crowd a rallying-cry for the 'nerf the new guy' foundation.

As practical advice?  You say yourself that your a good, and effective, player.  Either intentionally reign in your own effectiveness, hang up your psion for a while.  If you can make a psion shine (and a Cerebremancer, at that... hmm... perhaps MAGIC is broken, not Psionics, Mr. 'mancer...  perhaps you can really shock your fellow players by going full-court jungle-ball with Divine casting.  If you actually dont know how to press-button-and-win with Divine casters, Ill point you over to the WoTC Character Optimization Boards, and say things like 'Nightstick' and 'Divine Metamagic' to put your feet on the proper path to power.  Likely you already know those things.  If you dont, ask the nice people there for the a powerful lvl 17 divine caster (limit them to no more books than your Cerebremancer uses, to make it slightly interesting).  I assure you that the trained professional can take Core+Complete+Eberron (I assume the feats you use that I dont recognize are Eberron) and turn out something that makes the 'mancer you use in game look positively tame.

Barring that, delete everything in the entirety of WoTC Cannon that has the words 'Quicken' or 'Time' or 'Persistent' or 'Extra Action' or any of that stuff.

Barring that, dont play a full-court jungleball character (though I maintain its half-court college ball) in a 'suburban game of horse' game.  I think the problem is that you came to play ball, and your fellow players didnt.

That said, I still think your fellow players/GMs need to see a full court jungle ball CoDzilla, if they think PSIONICS has balance issues.


----------



## Dwarmaj (Aug 8, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> I don't mind a discussion but when people tell me that I'm flat out wrong or that I don't understand the system or that my DM doesn't do a good job tends to be insulting.  Many of you decide that you are going to blundgeon me with a sledge hammer to see that the status quo is correct.  That is what I want to avoid.
> 
> I am coming to the end of one campaign in which 3 to 4 times a session I get comments from the other 2 players who will be DM's "And psionics aren't broken?".  They aren't allowing psionics in their campaigns.  I needed discussions on how to scale back so that they might allow them.
> 
> You may not think that psionics is broken but that doesn't make the vast majority of DM's and other players from not allowing them.  I have in 14 months learned very well how to utilize the character I have to great effect.





Does your group ban or limit arcane or divine casters? There's a reason there are very few psionic related builds on the Optimization boards, Psionics are deemed weak, or better yet, arcane/divine is deemed more powerful. Yes, there are a few "bent" powers, but does that make the whole system broken? How many spells/feats/items are overpowered (Wraith strike, Greenbond Summoning, Nightsticks)?

Earlier it was mentioned that Energy Adaption was broken because it gave resistance to several different energy types. It give resist 30 if you're, but you take any damage above that. The arcane/divine version only works for one type at a time true, but allows you to ignore 12 points of damage per level up to 120 points. I don't know about you but if I had a dragon about to breathe on me, I'd prefer to have the arcane/divine version.   

I guess the reason the pro-psionics people can't help you fix psionics is because it's not broken. All we can do is give explanations for each point you bring up as to why it's "different".

One thing you could try is in your next campain, play a arcane or divine caster that is optimized to the same level as your psion. I'll bet you'll still be seen as overshadowing the others.

Now if you want to discuss which powers/feats are overpowered that a different discussion.
Schism (yes a bit too powerful for a straight manifester, basicly quicken power every round)
Metamorphosis (same problems as polymorph)
Astral Constructs (augmented over the ML using wild surge and to a lesser extent overchannel)
Damp Power (Complete Psi was pretty lame, but did introduce a few problems)
Syncronicity (quickened or linked)

After discussing overpowered psionic powers, you might want to take a look at overpowered spells/feats/items, because they do exist and there are many more of them.


----------



## Valor (Aug 8, 2006)

Wildstarsearch could you please give us a break down of your party. By this I mean Class/prestige class, any really important feats or equipment. And General Attitudes and styles of play by your fellow PCs. With this information we can better understand why these other players feel outshined. While I tend to agree that spells or feats that give PCs extra actions are a BIG advantage and depending on how they are described they are rather unbalanced. 

With that said, why do you use them? If you know they are “broken” then why continue to use them. While I understand that Schism and Vigor can look really powerful, most times they are not. Sure one gives a player more hit point but there are spells that do the same. As for Schism. I have only recently started playing a Telepath and well it doesn’t even look like a tempting power to take. I mean sure cutting your brain up into two pieces and having each kick ass sounds cool, but at 6 lower manifester levels? That gives your already lower end power/spell character a real disadvantage. But if it is that big of a deal that the other PCs that Schism and other power like Temporal Acceleration, make it seem that you have an unfair advantage. Well why not just not use those powers? Pick other powers, there are SO many to chose from. 

While I will assume that your whole group is of the same caliber as you (you seem like a really smart person), then they should know that at levels like 17, that’s when casters really get to shine, it is their time…no questions about it. It almost sounds like they have a bigger problem with the fact that as a caster/manifester you are out doing them in damage, depending on their classes…this is…normal. 

Marcus Smythe has some very good point about how think get taken the wrong way. Also he is right about that as far as over powered goes…well you aint seem nothing yet. While I though we had a solem vow not to get the WotC boards involved in this…but since that door has been opened. Here is are a pair of links  to two thread that might help you. 

Myth Thread 1

Myth Thread 2


----------



## takasi (Aug 8, 2006)

I can do that for him:

http://home.comcast.net/~eberron/aow/Party.htm

He is playing as Jaden, the kalashtar psion.

I am the DM.  

Jaden actually doesn't do that much damage and I don't complain about his abilities often, but we have two other players (who plan on DMing) who don't like psionics.  However, if you look at the rest of the party you'll see we have a somewhat "optimized" group to compare him with. 

Compare Jaden with Rasael (straight wizard).

The biggest complaints I've heard around the table are:

Lack of components:  enemies cannot grapple, silence or use other means to stop the psion.

Seemingly unlimited high level abilities:  15+ disintegrates just sounds goofy.

Wonky abilities:  Temporal Acceleration and schism are two that stick out in my mind

Just likes spells - only better!:  Detect thoughts is better, mage armor / force screen, energy adaptation, energy ray...they all seem better than comparable spells.

Of course, now that I've confessed, I'm sure several people will quickly tell wildstarsreach that it's the DM's fault.    

Really, it isn't that bad, I think the OP can be a worry wart sometimes.  I think the biggest problem is that the other 2 DMs don't like the flavor (rather than the mechanics) of psionics and no amount of balancing is going to convince them otherwise.

Edit:  wildstarsreach, the two threads referenced above are the threads I was talking about a few months ago.


----------



## Nail (Aug 8, 2006)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> The vast majority of DMs dont allow psionics?



That's difficult to prove, one way or another.  Polls have been tried on this site....but self-selection is a huge confounding factor.

However, we can look at how the game (3.0e, 3.5e, etc) is evolving as a clue.  How many psionic supplements are out, compared to the rest?  Which WotC splatbooks are put out first?  Which are put out last?  Etc.

@ Marcus Smythe: Psionics is not "the new kid on the block".  It's been around 3.xe from nearly the beginning.  That don't play, bud.


----------



## Nail (Aug 8, 2006)

takasi said:
			
		

> Of course, now that I've confessed, I'm sure several people will quickly tell wildstarsreach that it's the DM's fault.



Actually, from the tenor and content of your post, we can tell that it's not.


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 8, 2006)

takasi said:
			
		

> The biggest complaints I've heard around the table are:
> 
> Lack of components:  enemies cannot grapple, silence or use other means to stop the psion.
> 
> ...




1.)  Lack of Components:  Yes, this is a difference.  I submit that any mage who, at 17th lvl, finds himself getting shut down by grapples, silence, etc. is a mage who will have a short lifespan.  Still, advantage-Psion

2.)  Unlimited High Level Abilities:  Okay, I'm counting 16 Disintigrates off of the Sorcerer.. use the 'Metamagic Sorcerer' variant, and a good chunk of those would be empowered.. or.. -gasp- Twinned.    

3.)  Temporal Acceleration/Schism.  Time Stop and memorizing quickend spells.  Psion version is granted more flexible.

4.)  Many of them are better than their mage counterparts.  Then again... the psionic version of invisibility is a joke compared to its Mage counterpart, I'm still looking for the Psionic Color Spray, Evards B.T., and Ottos Irresistable You-Loose (aka Dance), and in many instances, even where there is a psionic counterpart, you have to pay a feat for it, or be the right sub-specialty.. which means your paying a feat for OTHER abilities that the mage just kinda scribbles into his tome-o-happy.  (Consider the Following:  Fireball.  Polymorph Self.  Flight.  If your a psion, you cannot have all 3 without paying 2 feats)

Takasi:  In closing, I wanted to say thank you for coming into the thread.  I find your insight helpful, and am glad to provide my thoughts whenever useful (though we may in the end agree to disagree).

Final Thought:  I see an Artificier 16 in that party.  If the Caster Level 13x2 Cerebremancer is dominating in a group with an Artificer 16, its cause the Artificier aint tryin.


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 8, 2006)

Nail said:
			
		

> However, we can look at how the game (3.0e, 3.5e, etc) is evolving as a clue.  How many psionic supplements are out, compared to the rest?  Which WotC splatbooks are put out first?  Which are put out last?  Etc.
> 
> @ Marcus Smythe: Psionics is not "the new kid on the block".  It's been around 3.xe from nearly the beginning.  That don't play, bud.




Perhaps I was insufficiently clear.  It is certainly the kid that people have limited experience with in 3.5... in no small part because if issues I discussed with prior versions.  As far as order of production?  I dont think anyone would argue that its the least-popular-thing in core (barring epic).  Some people dont like the flavor, some people dont think it fits in their games, some people have had bad past experiences, and some people would prefer not to learn a new system.  Heck, if you dont like something, theres no reason to play one/play with one.

None of the above have 'out of balance with arcane casting' as precursors.


----------



## frankthedm (Aug 8, 2006)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> I don't know, I've had no unbalancing problems with any of the Psions I have played.  Sure, he's been in the spotlight in more than one occassion, but so has the other PCs.  And while you can "cast" more higher level powers than a Wizard or Sorc, you also burn through your power point reserve a lot quicker.



That IS the unbalanced part of the class. The Psionic characters can dump far too much PP in a combat. Once that happens the character will either have very little to do or will attempt to get the party to rest. It is at that point the DM either.

_Allows the Psion to be overpowered and allows the group to rest.

Risks being seen as the "Bad Guy" when the foes press the attack against the resting PCs._

A limitation of a psionic character from spending more than X PP per minute might help the situation. A nice migraine headache [mental stat damage] would be about right and right in the flavor of the psycic abilities.


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 8, 2006)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> That IS the unbalanced part of the class. The Psionic characters can dump far too much PP in a combat. Once that happens the character will either have very little to do or will attempt to get the party to rest. It is at that point the DM either.
> 
> _Allows the Psion to be overpowered and allows the group to rest.
> 
> ...





See, I dont think this is a situation that requires external management.  The psion who blows all his PsPs early on deserves what he gets as a commoner-with-will-save later in the day.  The party who stops and rests just because the psion cant manage his PsPs is the party that teleports home when the mage runs low on spells.. said mage also being able to go crazy-nuts pretty easily.  (Quicken, Time-Stop, Metamagic Rods, etc. etc. etc.)

While the Psion may present a more extreme instance of resource management, hes hardly the only instance, and I think the same solutions that have long worked for other casters applies here, too.


----------



## Nail (Aug 8, 2006)

Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> Perhaps I was insufficiently clear.  It is certainly the kid that people have limited experience with in 3.5....



Hmmmmmm.  I doubt it.  (shrug)

Check out all of the other "magic users" put out since 3.5e: warlock, warmage, binder, soulborn,....etc.  Not to mention all of the PrCs.    

I suspect that people have _lots_ of experience with psionics, in comparison.  I know I do.....although in my case, the latest example of a psion PC was played by a _very_ good player.  He mopped the floor with the competition.


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 8, 2006)

And were the psion being compared to the things you named, that would be applicable.


----------



## Nail (Aug 8, 2006)

Errr?

Claim: Psions are disliked because people have limited experience with them in 3.5e.

Counter-argument: Classes with even less time "in the mix" that are also "magic users" have not run into nearly as much trouble.  (Hence my examples.)


----------



## IcyCool (Aug 8, 2006)

Valor said:
			
		

> While Even this is balanced out with the number of powers/Spells each knows. And yes this is a MASSIVE balancing factor. Where as a Wizard knows possibly unlimited power, and sorcerer knows 53 spells. A Psion knows 36 powers, and a Wilder knows 11. I am truly sorry but if you can’t see the impact this has on class balance well then I don’t think you truly understand how caster classes work.




Of course, those wizards and sorcerers need to take 4 spells to match the Psions 1 power...  (Not for every power, but a non-trivial number of them).



			
				Valor said:
			
		

> Specifically you mentioned the Astral Construct power. Well have you actually read what it does? Ok I agree it is a bit high on the stats for their challenge rating, but that is comparing them to what? I mean there are equally more powerful monsters with the same if not lower challenge rating.




Astral Construct is compared to Summon Monster.  Astral Constructs have better AC, attacks, and perhaps the biggest advantage is that they can't be hedged out by the _protection from evil_ and _magic circle against evil_ spells.  It's like Summon Monster, but better in every way.



			
				Valor said:
			
		

> And the limit of only one or two if you spend alot of time in a prestige class it’s a big check for the abuse of this power. While the only powers I can think of that are really powerful well they have magical counterparts that do the EXACT same thing. So if you’re trying to say that these overpower full powers are too powerful cause they mirror magical abilities well…that’s a mute point no?




What's the magical counterpart of Schism?  Fission?  Astral Construct?  Timeless Body?



			
				Valor said:
			
		

> As for Psions having high damage potential…this is a joke right? I mean its such a blatant lie that it seriously makes me wonder if we are all talking about the same Psionics. It is numerically impossible (as long as you follow the rules), that a Psion dishes out more potentially damaging powers then a Wiz or Sorcerer.




A wizard (barring much time, xp, and money spent creating fragile simulacrum) can blast off 2 spells a round.  A sorcerer can do that once per day with the sudden quicken feat.  A Psion can blast off 4 (6, if he's an Elan) or more in a single round (not counting swift or quickened powers).


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 8, 2006)

Nail said:
			
		

> Errr?
> 
> Claim: Psions are disliked because people have limited experience with them in 3.5e.
> 
> Counter-argument: Classes with even less time "in the mix" that are also "magic users" have not run into nearly as much trouble.  (Hence my examples.)




Statement:  GMs and players have less experience with Psionics than with Arcane magic, and are therefore less comfortable with them and more likely to be troubled by what they can do.

I've never even seen the 'less time in mix' classes played, so I have no idea what problems they have created.. though I do remember an initial SCREAM at the release of the Warlock (Unlimited Spells!  Broken!).  Then people got comfortable with it.

Final Note:  Of all the new kids on the block (with which my experience is admittedly VERY limited), Psionics seems to be the only one that even approaches the holy duo (Arcane and Divine) in power.  Lets face it.  Warlocks are cute, and fun, but casters they aint, in terms of in-game dynamics and power.  Truenaming stinks on ice.  I doubt any of the 'new systems' can manage the basic-I-win button that is Timestop and a stack of Gates.


----------



## tomBitonti (Aug 8, 2006)

*Encounter style issue*

Hi,

We've found, running with psionics, that in a single encounter, the psionicists shine.
But! Only within that single encounter, where they are able to burn through their powers
very quickly to great effect.

The psionicist has a *total* damage dealing capability that is much less than the sorcerer.
If there are multiple encounters, leading up to a nasty fight at the end, then it's much harder
for the psionicists.  They have to be very careful to conserve power points between  ncounters.  And, in the end, they run out sooner than the sorcerer.


----------



## Nail (Aug 8, 2006)

@ Marcus: Agreed.  (Although the Gates tactic is not clear-cut, BTW.  Not only does it cost significant XP, but the "commanded" text indicates communication, which is not possible within a Timestop.)

As for the Warlock, I think that's a excellent example to compare with psions vis-a-vis new "magic users".  The "introduction" phase of public commentary was identical, but after some time for serious analysis after a relatively short time, it became clear the warlock was not over-powered. 

 ....Whereas for the psion, the argument still rages.  That, in and of itself, tells us something significant.


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 8, 2006)

Edited due to DP


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 8, 2006)

IcyCool said:
			
		

> Of course, those wizards and sorcerers need to take 4 spells to match the Psions 1 power...  (Not for every power, but a non-trivial number of them).
> 
> 
> 
> ...




1.)  True, in more than a few instances a single psionic power can duplicate mutliple spells.  Lets face it, would a spontaneous caster with a short powers-knowable list EVER LEARN 4 different powers, one for each elemental reistance?  I think not.  Limited vs. Unlimited spells known really changes the way you look at things.

2.)  Astral Constructs are pretty much bruisers.  Summons are mutlitools.  And you can only have one Astral Construct at a time, post Complete Psionic.  Different != Better

3.)  Whats the psionic counterpart to Chain Contingency?  Mordenkainens Disjunction?  Orb of Force?  Gate?  Invisibility?  And shall we discuss both Flight and Teleport likely costing a feat?  The Psionic limited wish comes later, and the psionic Wish is more limited, than the Arcane version (and shouldnt you be bitching about Miracle?)  Ottos Irresistable I Win Button?  Evards Black AOE I Win Button?  Color Spraying I Win Button?  Maybe just WEB?

As for the powers named:
Schism:  Telepath Only, all others must spend a feet.  Equivalent to an extra Quicken every round.. decent for buffs, not so decent for nuking.  Great way to burn out in a round.

Fission:  Ohh!  Another you, only without any magic items?  Lifespan <= 1 rnd

Astral Construct:  Covered above.  Closest parallell is likely Summon Natures Ally, since the Druids do get better bruisers than the Wizards.

Timeless Body:  Re-read this power.  Though YOUR immune, it aint.  Dispel and carry on.  Heck, Ill hide under a Primsy Sphere if I want to be stuff-proof.. much harder to knock down than Timeless Body.

4.)  The Psions 4 Powers Per Round:  Great in theory.  Nova builds tend to be low-utility 1-trick ponys that can blow up a game, or themselves, in nothing flat.  This is not a psionic unique attribute... but somehow psionics is 'bad' for it, but any other class that does it is just playing D+D?  And as for multiple actions in a round... 
Chronytron Shapeshift, Timestop, Gate-until-sufficient Solars/Balors/etc. are present to handle ANY situation.  And then cast some.
Now theres a nova.


----------



## Dinkeldog (Aug 8, 2006)

Moved to house rules because this is about creating house rules to alter how psionics work, rather than about whether or not they're balanced or even minor rules interpretations.


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 8, 2006)

Nail said:
			
		

> @ Marcus: Agreed.  (Although the Gates tactic is not clear-cut, BTW.  Not only does it cost significant XP, but the "commanded" text indicates communication, which is not possible within a Timestop.)
> 
> As for the Warlock, I think that's a excellent example to compare with psions vis-a-vis new "magic users".  The "introduction" phase of public commentary was identical, but after some time for serious analysis after a relatively short time, it became clear the warlock was not over-powered.
> 
> ....Whereas for the psion, the argument still rages.  That, in and of itself, tells us something significant.




It tells us Psionics is different in how it is percieved than other forms of 'Magicy Stuff'
Why is this?

1.)  It may be strictly better to be a Psion 20 than any of the extant pure caster classes  (I suggest this is unlikely)

2.)  It may be more different, dynamically, than most new flavours of "Magicy Stuff"  (I suggest this is likely, compared to some of the new flavours.)

3.)  It may be better than the most/all new flavours of Magicy Stuff (I suggest this is a given.. most 'new' classes and types of magic have proven very very very weak compared to the old core)

4.)  It may have a long history of poorly balanced (both up and down) applications in game, that lead to a more intense scrutiny.  (Given)

5.)  It may require different GM choices to keep from overshadowing non-casters than does Arcane and Divine Magic, leading to those choices being less frequently made, and so the class appears stronger.  (Uncertain)

6.)  Players and GMs may percieve the ability to deal massive Direct Damage (something some classes actually do better than the Psion.. I suggest a Blastificer, or an Energy-Sub Metamagic-Specced variant Sorc) as superior to the ability to force a save-or-die, or a no-save-just-die.  (Uncertain, depends on player/GM perception)

The fact that many GMs are apparently uncomfortable with psionics in their game certainly suggests that there are opportunities for education and discussion.  It does not necessarily mandate that psionics is unbalancing.


*Caveat:  I will admit that there are psionic powers that really need to go.  I will also admit that there are magic spells that really need to go.  I think once we get rid of both, most of our concerns will be found to have gone with them.


----------



## Zimbel16 (Aug 8, 2006)

takasi said:
			
		

> The biggest complaints I've heard around the table are:
> 
> Seemingly unlimited high level abilities:  15+ disintegrates just sounds goofy.



The present Wiz could do this 11 times/day, with 7 of them heigtened and/or otherwise metamagiced. Is that "goofy"?



			
				takasi said:
			
		

> Wonky abilities:  Temporal Acceleration and schism are two that stick out in my mind



We had lots of problems with Time Stop in 3.0; we eventually banned it. I'd tend to ban 1-2 of the most problemic powers, and see if that helps resolve the issues.



			
				takasi said:
			
		

> Just likes spells - only better!:  Detect thoughts is better, mage armor / force screen, energy adaptation, energy ray...they all seem better than comparable spells.



There are also numerous cases where there are powers worse than the "equivalent" spell. As an example from your above list, when I played a Sorcerer, the primary reason for casting Shield was to grant my PC Magic Missile immunity; the AC change was largely irrelavant 90%+ of the time. I wouldn't have bothered with Shield as a selection were it not for that feature (which is absent from Force Screen).

Also note that the "better" versions of a number of these powers have the cost of a much higher-level power.


----------



## Spatzimaus (Aug 9, 2006)

Thanee said:
			
		

> You are kidding right?
> 
> Do you truely want to compare knowing a bunch of 0th level spells with knowing two to four times as many powers of the two highest currently available levels?




At level 20, a Sorcerer has 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3.  No spells are prohibited.

At level 20, a Psion has 0/5/4/4/4/4/3/3/3/6 by my count, assuming he always takes powers from the top level available.  Many key spells (_fly, teleportation, astral construct, charm, animal affinity, schism, fission_) are limited to a single Discipline, so unless you burn a LOT of Feats, you'll have far less to choose from, and you can't even use items that cast those powers.  (A Sorcerer who skips _fireball_ can use a wand or scroll for it just fine...)  This REALLY hurts in the mid-levels; I had a hard time finding enough I actually wanted at some levels (especially 6th and 7th).

Picking from the top psion level at all times really isn't a good idea; when my Psion was around level 10ish, his power point pool was just too small to make lots of 4th and 5th-level spells a good idea, but there were plenty of good 1st-level spells available, many of which would be augmentable for down the road (when I'd have enough power points to do so).  By 20, I think I had eight or nine first-level spells, most of which were augmentable.  So the effect, in the end, is the same as with the Sorcerer; you'll still be choosing lower-level powers when you could be taking higher-level ones, simply because they're the best choice for you.

So, the difference?  The Sorcerer gets 9 cantrips (Psion gets none), one extra 2nd-level spell, but loses 3 spells of 9th level (really, this means "any level" since there are only 7 9th-level powers, plus 1-2 per discipline, and most of them aren't that great).  Now, you can scoff at cantrips all you want, but have you ever tried to play a Sorcerer or Wizard who couldn't use _read magic_ or _detect magic_?  Like it or not, these things are *useful*, and to get the equivalent, a Psion has to take them as 1st-level powers... which means if he doesn't want to dump some other critical 1st-level power, he's going to have to use a later slot (like those extra 9th-level ones).  This really adds up.

To me, this is a wash; the Psion gets an edge because of the flexibility of the powers involved, but I'd still put it close enough to not be a huge discrepancy, but the Sorcerer can pick from a much wider range of spells thanks to the Discipline limit.

Anyway, I and my group are happy with Psionics, to the point where we've basically merged the Wizard into the Cleric class to make room for the Psion.  It's very flexible, but the Focus thing limits metapsionics, and the Sorcerer still beats it in sustainable firepower by a large margin, while the divine casters beat it in spell selection easily.  The ONLY major complaint I've seen is that the Schism/Fission-style powers are just too good; in 3.5E _haste_ was changed so that casters couldn't double-cast as easily, and yet Psions can still do similar things.  Fortunately, none of the Psions I've grouped with ever chose a Telepath, so _schism_ just isn't an issue for us.

And as a Shaper who specialized in Astral Constructs, I can say: I love the things, but there's REALLY a big appeal to being able to summon something with spell-like abilities, or good all-around resistances, or that can drain some stat, or that have Scent, etc.  ACs become a bit too one-dimensional.


----------



## takasi (Aug 9, 2006)

Zimbel16 said:
			
		

> The present Wiz could do this 11 times/day, with 7 of them heigtened and/or otherwise metamagiced. Is that "goofy"?




I mispoke.  At 17th lvl he can do it 25 times with psionics.  He can also augment it, essentially giving him metamagic without taking any feats.

He's also a cerebremancer with practised spellcaster and manifester.  He could actually disintegrate almost 40 times per day, if he decided to do use his wizard spells and the heighten feat.


----------



## Thanee (Aug 9, 2006)

Spatzimaus said:
			
		

> At level 20, a Sorcerer has 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3.  No spells are prohibited.
> 
> At level 20, a Psion has 0/5/4/4/4/4/3/3/3/6 by my count, assuming he always takes powers from the top level available.




Why not look at a few more levels, like...

1st Sorcerer 4/2 - Psion 0/3 (small advantage Sorcerer)
2nd Sorcerer 5/2 - Psion 0/5 (small advantage Psion)
3rd Sorcerer 5/3 - Psion 0/5/2 (great advantage Psion)
4th Sorcerer 6/3/1 - Psion 0/5/4 (great advantage Psion)
5th Sorcerer 6/4/2 - Psion 0/5/4/2 (huge advantage Psion)
6th Sorcerer 7/4/2/1 - Psion 0/5/4/4 (great advantage Psion)
7th Sorcerer 7/5/3/2 - Psion 0/5/4/4/2 (huge advantage Psion)
8th Sorcerer 8/5/3/2/1 - Psion 0/5/4/4/4 (great advantage Psion)
9th Sorcerer 8/5/4/3/2 - Psion 0/5/4/4/4/2 (huge advantage Psion)
10th Sorcerer 9/5/4/3/2/1 - Psion 0/5/4/4/4/4 (great advantage Psion)
... and so on.

(And this is not counting the 'multi' powers, which effectively become additional higher level powers with augmentation; every Psion will have a few of those.)

Please don't tell me that a Sorcerer has better (or even remotely equal) spells known than a Psion has powers known. They are worse by several degrees at almost every level.



> So, the difference?  The Sorcerer gets 9 cantrips (Psion gets none), one extra 2nd-level spell, but loses 3 spells of 9th level (really, this means "any level" since there are only 7 9th-level powers, plus 1-2 per discipline, and most of them aren't that great).  Now, you can scoff at cantrips all you want, but have you ever tried to play a Sorcerer or Wizard who couldn't use _read magic_ or _detect magic_?  Like it or not, these things are *useful*, and to get the equivalent, a Psion has to take them as 1st-level powers...




Yes, I always said, that _Detect Magic_ is very useful and I would waste no second to count it as another 1st-level spell known in such a comparison. The other 0-level spells are neglectible, though.

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Valor (Aug 9, 2006)

Hello Takasi welcome to the convo. After looking over your group you presented I got to say. HOLY HANNA. I mean I have never heard of a group with that many caster classes at such high levels. Compared to these characters I can really understand how Wildstarsearch is being showed up in sheer power. 

As far as complaints go. The lack of components as I have said before in previous posts is a basic staple of Psionic powers. They have Displays instead (which can be hidden if need be). I don’t really see where this is that big of a deal. How often does using components come up for Wizards? Ok if they are pinned or otherwise bound or in major hindrance then yes components can become a hassle. Or is it that no Psionic powers have GP cost attached. I would like to point out that Powers that would normally have GP costs have XP cost. And as we all know XP is infinitely more valuable then GP. Grappling still works wonders for taking down Psions. Its just a big distraction to manifest power as it is to cast spells. So I don’t see how that is a problem, maybe just lack of information. While silence wont stop a Psion, blindness will, or lack of a line of sight. While this can be gotten around by some powers, most Psions won’t have taken the time to have learned these powers since they are not that useful Also Dispel works wonders for putting a Psion in his place. 

While yes it is possible that a Psion would use up all his power points on high level powers. This is much more problematic then most realize. While sure he can sling around Psionic Disintegrate a lot (Which is numerically almost having half of what the Arcane version is). So while it is more high level spells in this case it is actually like casting half of one of the Arcane versions of the spell. That Psion is pretty much screwed for the rest of the day not to mention the rest of the fight. While a Wizard can throw around not nearly as many of these powers, when they have exhausted their supply of high level spells they still have all their OTHER spells to use. This is the trade off While this sounds more like a jealously issue on the part of the spell casters maybe they should be reminded that at this time they are still very much active and kicking ass while the Psion is running home to mommy for being so foolish. 

Wonky abilities. Well ok you got me there that term can apply to more then a few powers(ditto for spells and more so because there are many more spells out there). Powers like Schism and Temporal Acceleration have been banned in my campaign for the simple reason that other then quicken spells/powers I don’t like the idea of giving out more rounds. From what I understand this is the approach most DM take when faced with these kind of wonky abilities. 

As for powers that are just like spells, only better. Ok your right there are some. But the same can be said in reverse there are powers just like spells only worse. In some case basic spells that do not even have power counterparts. And even as far as power/spell power well after looking at The spell/power lists of your players. If you take out the two mentioned powers from before then the Psions powers compared to the rest of the group is well average if not mediocre.  

Takasi I don’t think anyone would say this is your fault…in fact isn’t that the biggest rule 0 there is? It’s never the DM’s fault. 

I highly recommend those links I put up a few posts ago. For anyone looking for most answered when it comes to things they question about Psionics THAT is the place to go.

Valor


----------



## Thanee (Aug 9, 2006)

Valor said:
			
		

> The lack of components as I have said before in previous posts is a basic staple of Psionic powers. They have Displays instead (which can be hidden if need be). I don’t really see where this is that big of a deal. How often does using components come up for Wizards? Ok if they are pinned or otherwise bound or in major hindrance then yes components can become a hassle. Grappling still works wonders for taking down Psions. Its just a big distraction to manifest power as it is to cast spells.




It's not. This is completely wrong. It's almost no distraction, having to make a mediocre Concentration check is no deal (for neither of them). Being *completely unable* to cast 95% of the existing spells is a rather big 'distraction'.



> I highly recommend those links I put up a few posts ago. For anyone looking for most answered when it comes to things they question about Psionics THAT is the place to go.




LOL

Sorry, but the guy (well both of them) who posted those threads over at WotC _so_ has (have) no clue (judging from what they write there), it's really good for a laugh, but that's all there is to it. There are so many errors in these posts, that this alone completely invalidates the points that are tried to be made there. The only stuff they got right are the really obvious ones. Then there are some real gems, like the explanation why _Energy Missile_ is not broken. 

Granted, there might be some decent posts hidden somewhere inside those monster threads, but I already asked someone once who claimed there were any to show them, and he was unable to do so, so I assume they are all just as questionable and ridiculous as the opening post is. I will gladly revert my opinion on them, though, if someone is able to point out some actually decent posts in there.

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Spatzimaus (Aug 9, 2006)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Why not look at a few more levels, like...
> 
> 1st Sorcerer 4/2 - Psion 0/3 (small advantage Sorcerer)
> 2nd Sorcerer 5/2 - Psion 0/5 (small advantage Psion)
> ...




There are two separate issues here:

1> The Sorcerer's 1-level lag isn't exactly a new issue.  The justification I've always seen for it when compared to a Wizard was that Sorcerers sacrifice that and spells known in exchange for their MASSIVE firepower, and the exact same situation comes up in regards to Psions.  Why?  Because while Psions can front-load their spells better than Wizards can, the total number of spell levels per day they can cast is far closer to the Wizard end than the Sorcerer one.  My old 3E Sorcerer NEVER ran out of spells, even considering the fact that he used a lot of low-level ones (_invisibility, haste, fly_); my 3.5E Psion runs out often.

So, if you accept that the 1-level lag is balanced vs. Wizards, then by the same logic it must be balanced vs. Psions... which means you should be comparing a Sor 10 (9/5/4/3/2/1) to a Psi 9 (0/5/4/4/4/2), which is a bit closer.  If you don't compare it this way, you're claiming that Sorcerers are far weaker than Wizards, because they're being penalized for nothing.

2> Again, this assumes the Psion ALWAYS picks spells of the highest possible level.  Which, as I've mentioned, isn't always true.

Take that 10th level you mention; for my Shaper, what four 5th-level powers would he want at that point?  Okay, _plane shift_ is nice, and _true seeing_ has its uses (except note that the psionic version is self-only, while the arcane/divine are Touch range; of course, there's no 250gp component involved either).  But what else did I have to look from?  _power resistance_'s usefulness depends on whether you play with complete magic/psionic transparency; _hail of crystals_ just doesn't seem that attractive when compared to the other damage powers; what's left, _adapt body_ and _major creation_?
Plus, as I pointed out, the PP shortage really hurts too much to always take the biggest powers.  A level 10 Psion with an 18 INT has 108 power points, and those 5th-level powers cost 9 apiece.  Once you include all the lower-level powers (especially the augmentable ones) you'll be using, there just isn't any point to having 4 5th-level powers at that level.
So really, what I ended up doing at level 10 was picking two lower-level powers (I forget which.)  The same pattern happened all the way up; I only took the newest and biggest power maybe half the time, which really ends up just mimicking the Sorcerer progression (where you get your four known spells at N, N+2, N+4, and N+6).



> (And this is not counting the 'multi' powers, which effectively become additional higher level powers with augmentation; every Psion will have a few of those.)




For the Energy attack powers, sure, they're more flexible than anything an arcane type gets.  Of course, to get them to do the damage of their arcane equivalents, you need to pump extra power points into them, and this adds up *fast*.  But okay, overall they're stronger.
The level 1 augmentable stuff is nice, but most of the time the augmentation is just marginally increasing its effectiveness at a steep cost.  (The Shield equivalent that's 1pp for the first 4 AC but +4pp for each one after that?)  There are a few exceptions, of course; I like the ones that let you spend 6pp to quicken, because at high level the time becomes the limiting factor.
And there are powers like _animal affinity_ that can be used to mimic multiple arcane spells... but the power is self-only, to balance.  (And is limited to a single discipline, of course)

But many of the other Psion powers are LESS functional than their arcane equivalents.  Several simply become self-only (_tongues, true seeing_) with no gain in flexibility, some have drastically increased casting times (_identify_ goes from 1 hour to 1 day), some have drastically decreased durations (_moment of prescience_ drops from 1 hour/level down to 1 ROUND per level), some drop minor functions (_force screen_ doesn't stop _magic missile_)... this really starts to add up after a while.

And, as I mentioned before, the difference in spell selection is HUGE.  Psions can't _fly_, _charm_, _fireball_, _scry_, Summon, or buff a stat at the same time, because each of these is in a different Discipline; barring spending an entire Feat just to get a single power, you're out of luck.  So while the Psion might be able to effectively spoof more powers by using some multi-use powers, he can't cover nearly as large of a range of abilities.  My Sorcerer, on the other hand, could do all six of these.

I can say from experience, my Sorcerer never felt stifled by the known-spell limit, but my Psion does.



> Yes, I always said, that _Detect Magic_ is very useful and I would waste no second to count it as another 1st-level spell known in such a comparison. The other 0-level spells are neglectible, though.




I'd put _read magic_ and _mage hand_ into that group, too.  So that means the Sorcerer gains the equivalent of three additional known 1st-level spells, not counting what he could learn with the remaining cantrips (like _message, light, prestidigitation_, etc.)  But even if you only like _detect magic_ and cast it the 6 times per day, that's still effectively a half-dozen extra power points the Psion would be expected to burn, and an extra known power he'd be expected to take in lieu of something stronger.


----------



## Deekin (Aug 9, 2006)

I just have to throw 2 cents in about psions and grappling

Grappling or Pinned

To manifest a power while grappling or pinned, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + the level of the power you’re manifesting) or lose the power. 

Retrieve a Spell Component

You can produce a spell component from your pouch while grappling by using a full-round action. Doing so does not require a successful grapple check


Another problem you seem to have is free scaling vs Augmentantion . WHat if when the Sorc used a 3rd level slot to cast fireball, he only got 5d6 damage and to do more damage, he would have to use a higher level slot, but could use two slots of a lower level instead to cast a higher level spell? 

Psionics metamagic feats are cheaper becouse of the point cap. A psion can never spend more points than his level, and metamagic counts toward that cap. A wizard does not have that cap. A 10th level wizard can cast an empowered fireball for 15d6 damage using up a fifth level slot. A 10th level Kineticist can toss a 10d6 energy ball or a 12d6 empowered energy ball. The advantage is that the psion save DC will be 2-3 higher, and they can chose an energy type on the fly.


----------



## Tsuul (Aug 9, 2006)

Problem:
Ok, the argument is that spell caps need to be added to psionics in the same manner that they are implemented for arcane/divine.
Brainstorming:
Implement replacement powers higher level as seen in arcane and divine will be needed as well

Wait, that's what augmenting does. But augmenting has the hamstring that it doesn't raise the actual level of the power.

Solution: Listen to your DM.



			
				Your DM said:
			
		

> Jaden actually doesn't do that much damage and I don't complain about his abilities often, but we have two other players (who plan on DMing) who don't like psionics. However, if you look at the rest of the party you'll see we have a somewhat "optimized" group to compare him with.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> I think the biggest problem is that the other 2 DMs don't like the flavor (rather than the mechanics) of psionics and no amount of balancing is going to convince them otherwise.


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 9, 2006)

Double Posting is the Devil


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 9, 2006)

takasi said:
			
		

> I mispoke.  At 17th lvl he can do it 25 times with psionics.  He can also augment it, essentially giving him metamagic without taking any feats.
> 
> He's also a cerebremancer with practised spellcaster and manifester.  He could actually disintegrate almost 40 times per day, if he decided to do use his wizard spells and the heighten feat.




Okay, weve established sufficient nukes from the psion that, assuming all he does is nuke, he can nuke all day.  22d6 save for 5d6 every round for any reasonable day.

77 damage assuming an average roll and a failed save.  154 damage save for 30 assuming maximize.

Is 154 damage per round good at 17th level in your games?

(Proposition.. the pro-psionics crowd is always going about this the wrong way.  We should try, for arguements sake, assuming that Psionics was the baseline, and then argue that arcane casting is broken by comparison, based on the things arcane casters do better than Psions.  For half credit, repeat the process but with Divine casters)


----------



## Someone (Aug 9, 2006)

Nah. I (we) agreed that some powers need to go, but on he other hand actually like the power point system. Others just don´t. In my experience no amount of discussion is going to change that, most of the threads at this point just continue in a O RLY? sequence or a flame war, once everything that had to be said it´s said.


----------



## Tikiman (Aug 9, 2006)

takasi said:
			
		

> Jaden actually doesn't do that much damage and I don't complain about his abilities often, but we have two other players (who plan on DMing) who don't like psionics. However, if you look at the rest of the party you'll see we have a somewhat "optimized" group to compare him with.



Actually, the rest of your party is far from optimized.  Most of your melee characters are toting a +4 weapon at best.  Those same melee characters are also multiclassed with semi-melee classes.  You have a Cleric/RSoP and an Artificier in your group.  As I and Marcus Smythe have stated, if they're getting outdone by a psion, they're just not trying.  Both of these characters could be tweaked in a fashion that would easily quintuple their power.

As for Jared, he's got a whole list of advantages.  He seems to have the largest pile of magical items in the group.  And he's one of the highest level characters in the party.  And he seems to be taking the largest number of non-core spells (Orb of Force and Assay Spell Resistance are both questionable).  Temporal Acceleration, while not itself overpowered, is more powerful than most of the spells the rest of the group has.



			
				takasi said:
			
		

> Compare Jaden with Rasael (straight wizard).



Good idea.  Lets see, Jaden is a level higher.  This level is extremely important because if Rasael was 1 level higher he'd be 2 spell levels ahead of Jaden (and he'd have lvl 9 spells like Timestop).  If Jaden were one level lower he would not have 7th level spells/powers.  Jaden has more/better gear.  Jaden has more non-core spells of questionable power level.  Jaden has wisely selected feats that all synergize with each other while Rasael has a random smattering of feats.  Jaden's feats are all 'definitely worth taking' (especially Prophecy's Hero) while several of Rasael's feats are iffy (Still, Silent, Heighten).  It looks like you have one character who was built by someone who knows the system well while the other was a wizard built by someone who usually plays fighters.  And what is up with the 'Lord Jaden, Templar of the Silver Flame' thing?  It appears as if Jaden is the only member of the party who hasn't died (a couple times) and has accumulated miscellaneous bonuses due to that.




			
				takasi said:
			
		

> Lack of components: enemies cannot grapple, silence or use other means to stop the psion.



Redied actions against casting/manifesting would stop him.  Unless you had both Silence AND grappling, an arcane Dimension Door would let him escape.  Rasael can escape from a Silenced Grappled situation right now with a Silenced Teleport (or with a Silenced Dimension Door, 700gp for a scroll).  A grappler with an Antimagic field would keep them pinned (Stick of Antimagic Field [single use, use activated, 3300gp]).  Psionic Restraints can prevent manifesting (pg 175 of the XPH, cost ranges from 1k to 24k).  Blinding him would prevent him from targeting anything.  Many Cloud spells could occupy him for a round or two and force him to DDoor into unknown territory.



			
				takasi said:
			
		

> Wonky abilities: Temporal Acceleration and schism are two that stick out in my mind



There are many ways to 'deal with' Temporal Acceleration.  Dispel Magic, M's Disjuction, Timestop, readied actions, false encounters (illusions, show up and look scary with minions but teleport away), scrying (don't fight them when they are at 100%), and 3-4 encounters after the TA incident will work wonders.  If you don't feel you should have to 'deal with' the power, remove it from his character.  I personally like to attach a 10xp/round gained cost to it so that players don't abuse it and instead save it for TPK situations.



			
				takasi said:
			
		

> Just likes spells - only better!: Detect thoughts is better, mage armor / force screen, energy adaptation, energy ray...they all seem better than comparable spells.



For some reason, I think a Telepath should have a better version of Detect Thoughts then a bat-poo flinging wizard (5/6 of psions have to take a feat to get it).  Mage Armor and Force Screen only get better if you spend more resources on them, so saying they are better is like saying that an Empowered Fireball is better then a regular Fireball.  Energy Adaptation is better, but it's also self only, can't block 12pts/level, and can't hold a candle to Energy Immunity (which lasts 24 hours btw).

As for energy damage powers like Energy Ray, I will state once again that A) Arcane energy damage generally blows chunks (notice how Raseal stopped at the level 4 Orb spells), B) Psionics 'overpowering' of energy damage simply makes it useful mid to high levels, and C) compare a 13pp Energy Ray to a Finger of Death.

And now lets turn the tables and compare Invisibility to Cloud Mind.  Finger of Death and Crystallize/Decerebrate.  Magic Missile/Orb of Force and Concussion Blast.  Summon Nature's Ally VIII (for 1d4+1 Dire Bears) + Animal Growth vs. Astral Construct + Ecto Protection.  Each caster class simply has some things they do better then others.  For psions, that happens to be self buffing, direct damage, and mental effects.  In exchange they give up things like any ability with illusions and fewer/weaker save-or-die effects.



			
				takasi said:
			
		

> Of course, now that I've confessed, I'm sure several people will quickly tell wildstarsreach that it's the DM's fault.



Well... you've got one well built caster (the only _offensively_ well built character) in a high level game (where casters reign supreme) with low magic items (where casters reign supreme) that allows non-core material (where casters reign supreme).  That player doesn't feel sufficiently challenged.  Given that he's apparently famous enough to have earned the title 'Lord', I'd suggest making him the focus of your villains attacks.  Engineer some encounters so that something in them is specifically designed against him.  Have all of your enemy casters memorize with him in mind.  I'm not saying you should kill him, just scare the bejezuz out of him every now and then.



			
				takasi said:
			
		

> Really, it isn't that bad, I think the OP can be a worry wart sometimes. I think the biggest problem is that the other 2 DMs don't like the flavor (rather than the mechanics) of psionics and no amount of balancing is going to convince them otherwise.



I would like to thank you for coming onto this forum and informing us of this.  I apologize for calling you a noob, but I still feel it was warranted given what I was told.  I still can't believe you let him buff for 4 rounds though. 

Has nobody noticed that this character is actually 50% psion, 50% wizard?  He's got exactly the same caster and manifester level.  He has level 7 powers and level 7 spells.  And yet, after all of that, everyone just keeps saying 'yeah, psions are overpowered'.



			
				takasi said:
			
		

> Edit: wildstarsreach, the two threads referenced above are the threads I was talking about a few months ago.



Well, unfortunitly, Wildstarsreach doesn't listen to anyone who disagrees with him.  At least, not until you smack him around a bit and call his DM a noob.  That'll get you a response.


----------



## Thanee (Aug 9, 2006)

Spatzimaus said:
			
		

> So, if you accept that the 1-level lag is balanced vs. Wizards, ...




Yes, I accept that.



> ...then by the same logic it must be balanced vs. Psions...




And I very much do not accept this!

Since when did Psions have to prepare their powers in advance?



> ...which means you should be comparing a Sor 10 (9/5/4/3/2/1) to a Psi 9 (0/5/4/4/4/2), which is a bit closer.  If you don't compare it this way, you're claiming that Sorcerers are far weaker than Wizards, because they're being penalized for nothing.




They are 'penalized' for their spontaneous casting ability. Psions are not.



> 2> Again, this assumes the Psion ALWAYS picks spells of the highest possible level.  Which, as I've mentioned, isn't always true.




Only in 95% of the cases? Ok, I will give you those 5% and gladly declare, that they are not really a relevant factor. 



> Take that 10th level you mention; for my Shaper, what four 5th-level powers would he want at that point?




Well, there are constantly (slow, but still) coming more powers for Psions in various supplements. Yes, they have a weaker selection and I often pointed that out already. That's definitely one of their main disadvantages right now. But their selection is far from bad.



> I can say from experience, my Sorcerer never felt stifled by the known-spell limit, but my Psion does.




Then you can never really have played a Sorcerer, if you havn't felt this extremely harsh limit on their known spells. Really.



> I'd put _read magic_ and _mage hand_ into that group, too.




Not really. They are no more than nice to have, but absolutely not necessary.

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Tikiman (Aug 9, 2006)

Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> Proposition.. the pro-psionics crowd is always going about this the wrong way. We should try, for arguements sake, assuming that Psionics was the baseline, and then argue that arcane casting is broken by comparison, based on the things arcane casters do better than Psions. For half credit, repeat the process but with Divine casters



Going Nova: This thread from the Psionics forums details how a wizard (with sufficient non-core material) can nova for an average of 72,819 damage.  In a single round.  And it ignores energy resistance.  I think a core+Faerun only build still nets you over half of the effect.

Summoning/Polymorph: This thread is a detailed guide for druids looking to be a CoDzilla.  Reports indicate that a single round of summoning can produce melee combatants more powerful, damaging, tougher, and more useful then an entire group of fighters.  You can also WildShape into animal form and achieve the same effect.  Or you could do both and take out an entire army (seriously, there were posts of druids storming entire castles solo).  You could even become a competent offensive caster and put the average wizard/psion to shame.

Breaking the game: Ropetrick has to be one of the most disruptive spells to gameplay, especially given its level.  It basically gives the players 100% control over how often they fight, even in the middle of a dungeon.  This spell alone makes going nova possible despite your DM's best efforts (short of banning the spell, which seems like a very popular choice).

And if I had a link I'd show everyone Pun-Pun; a 100% legal character build no sane DM would allow because it literally has infinite stats.  Infinite str, con, wis, int, hp, spells, saves, AC, you name it.  I think they're still trying to figure out some way to kill him.  The Psion can achieve this at an earliest of level 13 while the wizard can do it by level 5.

Illusions: A psion rarely gets an illusion like effect, and when they do it's pathetic in comparison (eg Invisibility versus Mind Blank).

Save-or-Die effects: Psions get fewer to chose from, and almost all of them are either [mind-affecting] and/or living target only.  Many of them don't actually kill the target either, they just disable it.

Prestige Classes: Wizards have book after book of full caster prestige classes.  All of them give power without taking much in exchange (which is why you almost never see a wizard 20).  The Archmage grants some of the benefits that people think make Psionics overpowered (only better).  In comparison, Psionics has far fewer PrCs, and only one of them grants 10/10 manifester progression.

Counterspells: Psions cannot counterspell at all.  However, with default transparency in effect the Counterspell option under Dispel Magic specifically grants wizards the ability to counterspell both spells and powers.

Stamina: While the Psion can have a larger impact for fewer encounters, in a game where the DM enforces 3-5 encounters a day the wizard will have more overall impact.

Getting allowed into games: Nobody ever says 'you can't play a wizard' unless it's a weird campaign thing (I loved DarkSun).  However it's not at all unheard of for DM's to ban psionics because of something that happened years ago, in editions far far away.  Even if you provide a solid argument and promise to not make an overpowered character many of those DM's won't budge.

Metamagic: Want to metamagic for free, ignoring those pesky spell slot requirments?  Try a metamagic rod.  Arcane/Divine only.

Utility: Wizards can own every spell in every book.  Lower level spell slots, at higher levels, can be completely devoted to useful spells like Invisiblilty and Fly, while a Psion has to consume some of this univeral PP pool to achieve the same effect.  And did you know that a wizard can leave spell slots open and fill them in later in the day? (PHB, pg 178)

Being a generalist: All Psions must specialize.  In order to learn powers another specialist could use they must take Expanded Knowledge (and can never get 9th level specialist powers this way pre-epic).  Wizards on the other hand have the option of specializing, and there are no 'specialist only' spells.


----------



## Thanee (Aug 9, 2006)

Tikiman said:
			
		

> And if I had a link I'd show everyone Pun-Pun; a 100% legal character build...




The current version (with the Divine Minion template) is actually not legal. 

But that creature (Sagguth or whatever) is pretty nuts for sure. Game designers should be able to do better than that. 

Anyways, there are certainly many truely broken combinations of various sources out there for most classes (casters/manifesters being clearly in the lead there because of the vast amonut of options they have).

Bye
Thanee


----------



## JonnyFive (Aug 9, 2006)

thanee, semi-off topic question, where did you find the spellpoint system? the only one that i know if is outa UA, and it specificaly says that spells do not scale w/o additional points.


----------



## Thanee (Aug 9, 2006)

That one and you are wrong there... here's the quote:



> Spellcasters use their full normal caster level for determining the effects of their spells in this system, with one significant exception. Spells that deal a number of dice of damage based on caster level (such as magic missile, searing light, or lightning bolt) deal damage as if cast by a character of the minimum level of the class capable of casting the spell. Spells whose damage is partially based on caster level, but that don’t deal a number of dice of damage based on caster level (such as produce flame or an inflict spell) use the spellcaster’s normal caster level to determine damage. Use the character’s normal caster level for all other effects, including range and duration.




It only does so for spells, that deal dice of damage (as has been noted) ... all other spells scale freely!

Bye
Thanee


----------



## JonnyFive (Aug 9, 2006)

ah ok, i missunderstood.  thanks


----------



## Psion (Aug 9, 2006)

Nail said:
			
		

> ....Whereas for the psion, the argument still rages.  That, in and of itself, tells us something significant.




That unlike the warlocks, Psionics has the burden of being known by broken past editions?

That psionics-bashers are simmering inwardly about the "flavor" of psionics and feel the need to manufactur reasons to exclude it on a "balance" level to validate their tastes?

That the closest thing to a psion in the core rules is fundamentally underpowered compared to the other full casters in the game, thus creating an invalid reference point, whereas due to flavor, the warlock benefits by not being directly compared to its closest references (an archer build), which when such a comparison made, it is shown the warlock is potent enough to think twice about its inclusion?

Yeah, those are all good points.


----------



## Thanee (Aug 9, 2006)

The sorcerer isn't underpowered. He's just misunderstood. 

Well, at least you are reasonable enough to see, that the sorcerer and the psion are not on one level (there are people who vehemently argue that they are).

Now you only need to realize that the sorcerer is not significantly weaker than a wizard. 

Not that you will ever agree on that, since you very much know about the conclusion. 

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 9, 2006)

Thanee said:
			
		

> The sorcerer isn't underpowered. He's just misunderstood.
> 
> Well, at least you are reasonable enough to see, that the sorcerer and the psion are not on one level (there are people who vehemently argue that they are).
> 
> ...




I am... crushed, by the weight of irony inherit in this statement.

State what evidence would be sufficient to indicate to you that Psions are NOT broken?  What evidence is necessary to falsify the 'Psionics are Broken' Hypothesis?

Set a standard, give a guideline.  I tire of trying to hit the ever-moving target.


----------



## Thanee (Aug 9, 2006)

If you could (which is impossible IMHO) find evidence, that the sorcerer and the psion class (and the wizard class) are about on one level on the power scale, when under the applied playing style (which can turn a few things upside down here) sorcerers and wizards are about equal.

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 9, 2006)

Thanee said:
			
		

> If you could (which is impossible IMHO) find evidence, that the sorcerer and the psion class (and the wizard class) are about on one level on the power scale, when under the applied playing style (which can turn a few things upside down here) sorcerers and wizards are about equal.
> 
> Bye
> Thanee




If your hypothesis is not subject to falsification (which is the only way we will ever move this beyond the realm of 'I think' opinion rants) then we might as well be discussing the nature of God or 'what is the good of man', for as much chance of resolution as we would have.  Intellectually stimulating, but not susceptible to proof.

It appears that you will not be playing a psionicist, and noone will be playing a psionicist in a game you or OP run.  The first is at most your loss (if you do not like them, no loss) and the second, whoevers loss it may be, is not mine.


----------



## Thanee (Aug 9, 2006)

Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> If your hypothesis is not subject to falsification (which is the only way we will ever move this beyond the realm of 'I think' opinion rants) then we might as well be discussing the nature of God or 'what is the good of man', for as much chance of resolution as we would have.  Intellectually stimulating, but not susceptible to proof.




Hey, you asked what would be sufficient evidence to me, that the Psion class is not broken. I told you that. If you think it's impossible to create such evidence, then you probably realize why I am so strongly convinced of my opinion about this topic. 

I'm pretty much 100% convinced, that Sorcerer and Wizard are about equal (unless the playing style favors Wizards in some fashion, which some playing styles surely do); the Sorcerer is maybe _a little_ behind, because of the fewer options they have, but that's well within normal limits.

I'm also 100% convinced, that the Psion is _way ahead_ of the Sorcerer. And this is something most people actually agree with.



> It appears that you will not be playing a psionicist, ...




How do you come to that conclusion?



> ...and noone will be playing a psionicist in a game you or OP run.




That's most likely right, yep. Under the current circumstances, I see absolutely no reason to allow psionics (and thus create a lot of headaches). Flavorwise, which is the only reason to even think about adding them, they are not really needed, psionics can easily be done via spell-like abilities (i.e. MM 3.5 Mind Flayer) and simple flavor text/description.



> The first is at most your loss (if you do not like them, no loss) and the second, whoevers loss it may be, is not mine.




Noone's loss, really. Psionics add almost nothing new to a game. There's easily 90+% overlap with existing abilities. They can easily be left out and noone will ever notice the 'lack'. 

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 9, 2006)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Hey, you asked what would be sufficient evidence to me, that the Psion class is not broken. I told you that. If you think it's impossible to create such evidence, then you probably realize why I am so strongly convinced of my opinion about this topic.
> 
> I'm pretty much 100% convinced, that Sorcerer and Wizard are about equal (unless the playing style favors Wizards in some fashion, which some playing styles surely do); the Sorcerer is maybe _a little_ behind, because of the fewer options they have, but that's well within normal limits.
> 
> ...




The impossibility inherit in the evidence requested is the ill-defined nature of what is desired.

Provide a precise definition of what your looking for, and I'll try to give it a shot.


----------



## Dwarmaj (Aug 9, 2006)

> Noone's loss, really. Psionics add almost nothing new to a game. There's easily 90+% overlap with existing abilities. They can easily be left out and noone will ever notice the 'lack'.




That's pretty harsh. I guess we really don't need anything but the core PC types either.

Sounds like someone's wizard got beat up by a psion when they were a kid...   

Yes, Psionics does have some powers that are better than arcane/divine spells. There are many more spells that are better than powers. 

Every issue that has been brought up as to why psionics are broken have been addresses and either dismissed or ignored.

One power can do many things... Psion get fewer powers known. 3.0 psionics didn't have this, but psions had more powers then too. There are Energy Substitution feats if a mage really wants to change enegry types. There's also PrCs that grant this ability. If psions have to burn feats to get cross disipline powers, why shouldn't a wizard need to burn a feat to do some things. 

A 1st level power can do 20d6 at 20th level... Psionic powers don't autoscale and they have to use more resources to increase their damage output.

The only real issue with psionics is the extra actions that can be gained and can also be limited by the DM if it becomes a problem.

Again, being different does not mean it's broken.


----------



## Thanee (Aug 10, 2006)

Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> The impossibility inherit in the evidence requested is the ill-defined nature of what is desired.
> 
> Provide a precise definition of what your looking for, and I'll try to give it a shot.




Uhm... how much more precise can it get?

I guess your 'precise' is not the 'precise' I know. 

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 10, 2006)

A falsifiable hypothesis requires an objective standard of measure, something a non-interested 3rd party could decide was met, or not met.

"About on one power level with" is subjective, and within the general bounds of it, massive quantities of information have been put forth.  None of this is apparently sufficient.

What would be?  Spare me generalities.  Give me exact, objective numbers.

If that seems unfair, I'll point out that I'm not the one claiming that a part of the game system is broken.  The burden of proof, my friend, is yours, unless you are comfortable with having the foundation of your arguement be 'because I said so'.


----------



## Nifft (Aug 10, 2006)

Maybe we could see a breakdown of...

- Access to magic item creation, types of items, and resources to create "situational" items (Wizard or Cleric wins by a long shot, but Sorcerer vs. Psion could be interesting);
- Points of ability damage each caster type can do, and how often;
- Points of HP damage each caster type can do, and how often;
- Number of save-or-die effects that can be done each day, at high DC, and at moderate DC;
- Available utility effects.

What do you think of that as an objective measure?

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 10, 2006)

Works for me, Nifft.

One thing wed want to nail down early on is what exact books are allowed.  While its certainly advantage:Mage the more we restrict it, if we dont, the outcome is going to be some nutso creation that would never appear in a game.

I personally suggest core+complete.

Potential Extra Categories:
Party Buffing
Dealing with Spell-Resistant Baddies (Undead, Golems, high-SR Crowd)
Mobility

All performances must also be judged by a single character.


----------



## Tikiman (Aug 10, 2006)

Thanee said:
			
		

> The current version (with the Divine Minion template) is actually not legal.



The Divine Minion is just one of several ways to achieve the build.  And upon finding the thread (just found a way to search those forums) I see that Divine Minion is iffy because it's very obviously cheese.  The legality of it revolves around DM fiat.


I finally (re)found an old post I've been looking for.  You can argue until you're blue in the face about game balance, but the only way to really test it is to playtest it right?  For good results you need to playtest across multiple tables, campaigns, DMs, and players.  This thread is a conglomeration of 30 polls asking people 'what is the most powerful class'.  Wizards, *by consensus*, tie for 2nd place (with clerics and artificers) at 8.6/10.  Psions come in third at 8.1.  Sorcs come in much lower at 6.4.  Does that do _anything_ for you Thanee?

And what's even better is that the other poll in the thread asks 'what is the most fun class to play'.  Sorcs rank 2nd at 7.4.  Psions 4th at 6.9.  Wizards 10th at 6.0.


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 11, 2006)

Here's an example one of the problems with a 1st level power.  With my character Jaden, Kalashtar Psion/Wizard/Cerebremancer of 17th level with Psionic Charm.  He has a Psionatrix of Telepathy.  Using 17 PP, 1 to power, 2 to make applicaple to a giant, 4 extend from an hour/level to a day/level and 10 more to raise the DC.  DC with a 28 intelligence came to DC 30.  A wizard would be hard pressed to get beyond a DC 26 with a charm monster.  DC 10 + 1 power level + 9 for stat + 8 for 16 add PP + 1 item and +1 Kalashtar. 

Granted that Only a telepath starts with this power but a 3rd level psion could use a feat to get this.


----------



## FrostedMini1337 (Aug 11, 2006)

2 Focus + Heighten it to 9th + 9 to stat = 30.  Every wizard needs Heighten.

17 PP = a ninth level power doesn't it?  

Psion could add two to the DC, but he'd have to expend focus.  The wizard can't use the item, but he could easily brew the same thing up himself, or take a PrC to raise the DC.

Edit: To clarify I'm not saying you're right or wrong, just saying that was a bad example.


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 11, 2006)

FrostedMini1337 said:
			
		

> 2 Focus + Heighten it to 9th + 9 to stat = 30.  Every wizard needs Heighten.
> 
> 17 PP = a ninth level power doesn't it?
> 
> ...




I disagree, this is indemic to the Psion class.  To even match it you have to take multiple feats.


----------



## FrostedMini1337 (Aug 11, 2006)

Well, if you let the wizard use the item, and the Kalashatar bonus effects spells you need 1 feat.  (Don't have my ebberon book onhand, I think it would work anyway with the psionics/magic transparency thing).

And he would most likely have those feats anway wouldn't he?  Well, at least Heighten, and if he's an echanter he will most likely have both focus.  If we're assuming the psion is a telepath, we can assume the wizard is an echanter.   Those 3 feats are highly useful.


----------



## Nifft (Aug 11, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> Here's an example one of the problems with a 1st level power.  With my character Jaden, Kalashtar Psion/Wizard/Cerebremancer of 17th level with Psionic Charm.  He has a Psionatrix of Telepathy.  Using 17 PP, 1 to power, 2 to make applicaple to a giant, 4 extend from an hour/level to a day/level and 10 more to raise the DC.  DC with a 28 intelligence came to DC 30.  A wizard would be hard pressed to get beyond a DC 26 with a charm monster.  DC 10 + 1 power level + 9 for stat + 8 for 16 add PP + 1 item and +1 Kalashtar.
> 
> Granted that Only a telepath starts with this power but a 3rd level psion could use a feat to get this.




Soo... a power that only 1/6 of all Psions have normally vs. a spell that any Wizard can get (but not some Specialists -- let's say 3/4 of Wizards can have it at no extra cost). A power that *costs a feat* for 5/6 of Psions vs. a spell that *costs a feat* (to heighten) for a Wizard to use effectively at high level. Sounds about equal. 

Of course, an Enchanter could choose to prepare _dominate monster_ instead of _heightened charm_ -- a Wizard knows a lot of spells by level 20. The Psion will have exactly 36 powers known. A Psion can't even trade out powers like a Sorcerer trades out spells. So, a 1st level Power better not be useless at level 20. The same does not go for spells.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Tsuul (Aug 11, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> I disagree, this is indemic to the Psion class. To even match it you have to take multiple feats.



To be precise, to match it you need 1 feat (Heighten), plus one item, plus one racial bonus. Your character is pretty well optimized.
How are the item and racial bonus indemic to the psion class? Remove them from the argument.

In both cases for the charm effect, arcane and psionic versions, the characters are still blowing the equivalent of 9th level resources; a 9th level spell slot or 17PPs.


----------



## Thanee (Aug 11, 2006)

Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> A falsifiable hypothesis requires an objective standard of measure, something a non-interested 3rd party could decide was met, or not met.
> 
> "About on one power level with" is subjective, and within the general bounds of it, massive quantities of information have been put forth.  None of this is apparently sufficient.
> 
> What would be?  Spare me generalities.  Give me exact, objective numbers.




Really, your post just reads like... "sorry, can't do that, but don't really want to say so." 

You asked, what would be sufficient evidence for me, I told you that.
And I don't think that was in an unreasonable or unanswerable fashion.

If you cannot do that, that's not my fault, really.

The PHB has full mechanical data on the Sorcerer.
The XPH has full mechanical data on the Psion.

What else do you need to compare two classes? 

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Thanee (Aug 11, 2006)

Tikiman said:
			
		

> The Divine Minion is just one of several ways to achieve the build.




Yep, the biggest 'problem' is this ridiculous creature ability, of course.



> I finally (re)found an old post I've been looking for.  You can argue until you're blue in the face about game balance, but the only way to really test it is to playtest it right?  For good results you need to playtest across multiple tables, campaigns, DMs, and players.  This thread is a conglomeration of 30 polls asking people 'what is the most powerful class'.  Wizards, *by consensus*, tie for 2nd place (with clerics and artificers) at 8.6/10.  Psions come in third at 8.1.  Sorcs come in much lower at 6.4.  Does that do _anything_ for you Thanee?




Actually, no. Playtesting is, unfortunately, not a strong method to test balance, unless it is specifically done in an environment, which has this purpose and no other, where classes and circumstances are specifically tailored to test certain factors. That, of course, would be the point of playtesting, but it rarely is done that way, because it's hard work and not much fun to do so. That doesn't mean playtesting isn't good. It certainly is. It's a decent method for spot tests.

There are simply too many factors which skew the results, like personal preferances, commoness of certain classes (i.e. Psions aren't used in most campaigns, the results are therefore automatically skewed towards Clerics, Druids and Wizards, since they are in the Core rules), specific broken abilities/spells/powers/PrC/etc, which don't say anything about the classes that use them themselves, house rules, specific character choices, player experience, DM experience, playing styles, etc.

That's why I don't think polls like this are very accurate.

Also, Sorcerers are often voted very low in such polls, and there are plenty reasons for this. I don't believe it does them (or their power) justice, though. 

It's still an interesting poll (or series of polls), which does give some insight into people's opinions about the classes, I suppose (link isn't working right now, but I will try again later), thanks! 

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 11, 2006)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Really, your post just reads like... "sorry, can't do that, but don't really want to say so."
> 
> You asked, what would be sufficient evidence for me, I told you that.
> And I don't think that was in an unreasonable or unanswerable fashion.
> ...




I dont even know how to answer this.  Are you being disingenous?  I can only hope so.
What exactly does 'more powerful' mean?  More damage per round?  Per day?  Better save-or-dies?  What?


----------



## Thanee (Aug 11, 2006)

Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> What exactly does 'more powerful' mean?




It's a common phrase used on message boards (polls, etc) like this. 



> More damage per round?  Per day?  Better save-or-dies?  What?




Everything. The whole picture.

Bye
Thanee


----------



## FrostedMini1337 (Aug 11, 2006)

Did the Complete Psionic add a lot of Save or Dies the only ones I can remember are Decerebrate, Microcosm, Assimilate, Crisis of Life, and Disintegrate(Psionic) and Recall Death, with Disintegrate being the stupidest power ever.  Crisis of Breath also counts, I guess.

Magic has Imprisonment, WoB, Weird, Phantasmal Killer, Finger of Death, and Circle of Death and Disintegrate.  They also have PWK and Symbol of Death, but those are kinda iffy.

For my money I'd rather have Stop Heart or Implosion than any of those....

Anyway, just wondered where the save or die thing came from.  I always thought that was where psionics lost out.


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 11, 2006)

Thanee said:
			
		

> It's a common phrase used on message boards (polls, etc) like this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




So, a mathmatical analysis of all potential power/feat/class/PRC combinations, in all circumstances, in all game styles, evaluated for impact per day, impact per round, surviviablity, flexibility, mobility, utility, synergy with other party members, buffing, debuffing, crowd control...    

Would you like a side of fries with that, too?

In case I am unclear.. people throw around 'more powerful' in a fashion that enables nothing more than further debate, talking past one another, changing the balance target, etc.  I am proposing that we attempt to move this to the next level, and apply something vaguely resembling rigor to the process.  While not true science, the idea of testable, falsifiable, repeatable-by-disinterested-3rd-parties theories and standards is, I think, a much better step towards rejecting or accepting the 'Psionics is overpowered' hypothesis put forward by the OP, and lately supported by your good self.

If your not interested in that, let me return the conversation to its more basic level.

"Psionics is too powerful, because of power XYZ, and anecdote PDQ"
"No, Arcane Magic is too powerful, because of spell ABC and anecdote DMZ"
"Is not"
"Is too"
"Not"
"Too"
"Not"
"Too"

While not enlightening, it is entertaining, and has the added benefit of never being able to be proven wrong.


----------



## Vurt (Aug 11, 2006)

In this discussion I see constant references to the psion, largely in part due to the framing of the issue by the OP, but it does leave me to wonder somewhat whether folks feel that "psionics is broken" as well for the psychic warrior and the wilder.  Not to derail this thread, but I am curious.

Cheers,
Vurt


----------



## FrostedMini1337 (Aug 11, 2006)

The psi warrior is on par with most classes imo, and the wilder, while incredibly fun, is horribly, horribly underpowered if your going striaght class.  I would honestly only consider taking serious levels in wilder if was genning a high level character that needed a very limited amount of psionics to qualify for a PrC.  The lack of power known is too immense to live with.  Your first level power pretty much has to be crystal shard.  Cleric bab does nothing for you with crappy weapon selection and rouge hitpoints.

On the other hand, from my DMing days, Wilders can make murderous evil guys.  Wild Surge a Mind Thrust with a psionomatrix and greater power focus.  That'll end the Fighter or the Rouge.


----------



## Taraxia (Aug 11, 2006)

Thanee said:
			
		

> It's a common phrase used on message boards (polls, etc) like this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It's a common phrase because it has no definition and is completely subjective. It's *easy* to say things like that. Look, let's approach this from the other direction. I'm convinced the Sorcerer is underpowered relative to the Wizard. That's why I'll never play one.

Now you prove to me why I'm wrong. Based on Everything. The whole picture. Come on, it's a simple question. Why are sorcerers powerful? (And you have to *prove* it, not just say it, since people have given a hell of a lot more *evidence* for the power balance of the Psion than you have for the power balance of the Sorcerer in this thread.)


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 11, 2006)

FrostedMini1337 said:
			
		

> The psi warrior is on par with most classes imo, and the wilder, while incredibly fun, is horribly, horribly underpowered if your going striaght class.  I would honestly only consider taking serious levels in wilder if was genning a high level character that needed a very limited amount of psionics to qualify for a PrC.  The lack of power known is too immense to live with.  Your first level power pretty much has to be crystal shard.  Cleric bab does nothing for you with crappy weapon selection and rouge hitpoints.
> 
> On the other hand, from my DMing days, Wilders can make murderous evil guys.  Wild Surge a Mind Thrust with a psionomatrix and greater power focus.  That'll end the Fighter or the Rouge.




Not having played the PsyWar, Wilder, Lurk, Divine Mind, Ardent or Mindblade, I don't have any real experience with them but from my estimation they are not imbalanced like the Psion or possibly the Erudite.

The other classes have much less PP or powers.  The Erudite get upto 51 powers and Psion 36 powers.  Granted that 11 of the powers require access that the Erudite doesn't have to powers restricted to other classes.  

I guess that I'm not going to convince people that there are inherent  problems with this class.  I love the class but see that there are problems.  I give up commenting.  thanks for all of your opinions.


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 11, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> Not having played the PsyWar, Wilder, Lurk, Divine Mind, Ardent or Mindblade, I don't have any real experience with them but from my estimation they are not imbalanced like the Psion or possibly the Erudite.
> 
> The other classes have much less PP or powers.  The Erudite get upto 51 powers and Psion 36 powers.  Granted that 11 of the powers require access that the Erudite doesn't have to powers restricted to other classes.
> 
> I guess that I'm not going to convince people that there are inherent  problems with this class.  I love the class but see that there are problems.  I give up commenting.  thanks for all of your opinions.




I hate to see the OP retire from the thread... I'm willing to be convinced.  I also love the class.  Im just not seeing anything that seems to me out of whack, given the other costs involved for the psion.  (As I love to say... Teleport, Fireball, Polymorph.  Pick one.  Use a feat for the each of the other two...)


----------



## IcyCool (Aug 11, 2006)

FrostedMini1337 said:
			
		

> The psi warrior is on par with most classes imo, and the wilder, while incredibly fun, is horribly, horribly underpowered if your going striaght class.




Wow, I have had the exact opposite experience with this.  I had a party (all 14th level) consisting of a Drow Warlock 14 (bought off her level adjustment), a gray elf Wizard/Geometer/Celestial Mystic, a human Wizard/Druid/Arcane Heirophant (using Precocious Apprentice to qualify), a Dwarven Paladin, a Warforged Fighter/Juggernaught, a human Bard/Rogue/Druid/Folchian Lyricist/Sublime Chord (with the Words of Creation feat), and a Human Wilder 14.

The Wilder was by far the powerhouse of that group.  In an encounter that wound up just being the Celestial Mystic and the Wilder against an old red dragon (CR 20) and two of his mortal lackeys (simple, human fighter 6s), the wilder killed the dragon _by herself_ in three rounds.

Edit - I would like to add that I'm a fan of the Psychic Warrior, and find the Soulknife interesting.


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 11, 2006)

I'm trying to imagine a CR20 Red Dragon not simply eating (claw-claw-bite-improved grab-breath weapon) a Lvl 14 Wilder.

That must have been SOME cunning plan the party had...


----------



## IcyCool (Aug 11, 2006)

Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> I'm trying to imagine a CR20 Red Dragon not simply eating (claw-claw-bite-improved grab-breath weapon) a Lvl 14 Wilder.
> 
> That must have been SOME cunning plan the party had...




Well, when your wilder has Schism, Time Hop, Temporal Acceleration, and the silly power from Races of Destiny (? The one that lets you take your action as if you had readied it, so you can act at pretty much any single point in the initiative count), it was less cunning and more "I spend power points and make it die while making the initiative system into my prison buddy".  On the bright side, it was the first time since the Wilder had joined the group that she was close to running out of power points.  Normally, I'd only run her down to about 1/3 her total on a good day.


----------



## Thanee (Aug 11, 2006)

Vurt said:
			
		

> In this discussion I see constant references to the psion, largely in part due to the framing of the issue by the OP, but it does leave me to wonder somewhat whether folks feel that "psionics is broken" as well for the psychic warrior and the wilder.  Not to derail this thread, but I am curious.




Not as much as the psion for sure. There are issues with those classes, the psychic warrior is strong but except for a few very specific things, I consider them fine. Wilders have this pretty broken ability to manifest powers of a *power level* way beyond what they should be able to do. It has downsides (and pretty hefty ones) as well, but that can easily go out of bounds. Psions can do that, too, to some degree with overchanneling, but not as easily.

This is also, why I think Practiced Manifester was a *really* bad idea. It's easily twice or three times as powerful as Practiced Spellcaster, because augmentation allows you to improve the effect of a power in a way, that both manifester level and more importantly power level increase.

And yes, I'm well aware, that the actual power level does not change... it's the effective power level I'm speaking about.

But, to get back to your question, my main gripe is with the psion class specifically, because it is simply way too good (it's also way more powerful than the wilder). Somehow in the design process they must have forgotten, that the psion can spontaneously manifest...

Wilders are definitely a very powerful class as well, but they also have downsides, which psions do not have (apart from the overall psionics downsides, of course, like the much fewer powers (compared to spells) that exist overall, or PrC choices).

Bye
Thanee


----------



## FrostedMini1337 (Aug 11, 2006)

If you can have a wilder live to level 14 you deserve a good character.  Scraping around low levels with 1-3 powers know is * awful *.


----------



## Thanee (Aug 11, 2006)

Taraxia said:
			
		

> Now you prove to me why I'm wrong.




I havn't asked and offered to do so, unlike someone else here. 



> Based on Everything. The whole picture. Come on, it's a simple question. Why are sorcerers powerful?




I already did that, actually (within reasonable limits, of course). 

I have no link unfortunately, but maybe you can dig it up somehow. 



> (...since people have given a hell of a lot more *evidence* for the power balance of the Psion...)




Like what?

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Thanee (Aug 11, 2006)

Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> So, a mathmatical analysis of all potential power/feat/class/PRC combinations, in all circumstances, in all game styles, evaluated for impact per day, impact per round, surviviablity, flexibility, mobility, utility, synergy with other party members, buffing, debuffing, crowd control...




You said that. I just said, that the whole picture should be represented.

You are also the one who both offered evidence and says that evidence has to be mathematically perfect. So, really, that's your problem, not mine. 



> Would you like a side of fries with that, too?




No, thanks. 



> In case I am unclear.. people throw around 'more powerful' in a fashion that enables nothing more than further debate, talking past one another, changing the balance target, etc.  I am proposing that we attempt to move this to the next level, and apply something vaguely resembling rigor to the process.




Done that already a long time ago. 

Unfortunately, I have no link, and I don't really want to write it up again.



> If your not interested in that, let me return the conversation to its more basic level.
> 
> "Psionics is too powerful, because of power XYZ, and anecdote PDQ"
> "No, Arcane Magic is too powerful, because of spell ABC and anecdote DMZ"
> ...




Yep, many (most actually) people base their subjective opinions on singular experiences. I don't.

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 11, 2006)

IcyCool said:
			
		

> Well, when your wilder has Schism, Time Hop, Temporal Acceleration, and the silly power from Races of Destiny (? The one that lets you take your action as if you had readied it, so you can act at pretty much any single point in the initiative count), it was less cunning and more "I spend power points and make it die while making the initiative system into my prison buddy".  On the bright side, it was the first time since the Wilder had joined the group that she was close to running out of power points.  Normally, I'd only run her down to about 1/3 her total on a good day.




Oh.  "She went Nova".  Check.  Usually a very bad call, but when 2xCR13 characters run into a CR20 encounter, you dont have much choice...

Im seeing 4 of 7 powers built out for nova-ing... except Im not sure what role Time Hop played (getting her friends safely in the future and out of the way?), one of which cost a feat... what was the kill card, if I may ask?

Thanee:  You refuse to prove the inverse of my arguement, you refuse to define what is desired save by gross generalities.  I was attempting to get to some sort of resolution with you, but you appear to be too firmly convinced to even risk your assumptions to any sort of test.  I dont see us coming to an understanding, or even grounds for further discussion.


----------



## Thanee (Aug 11, 2006)

Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> You refuse to prove the inverse of my arguement, ...




That's right. I also don't see why I should do so? I wasn't the one who offered evidence in the first place. 

BTW, what argument? I must have missed that, sorry. (Post #?)



> ...you refuse to define what is desired save by gross generalities.




Yeah, I'm not doing that work for you either (and I'm not entirely sure what kind of definitions you expect, really; it's impossible to put the classes into mathematical formulas). I gave you a basic idea of where I'm coming from, if you cannot work with that... *shrug*

Just don't make offers, if you cannot fulfill them. 

Bye
Thanee


----------



## IcyCool (Aug 11, 2006)

Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> Oh.  "She went Nova".  Check.  Usually a very bad call, but when 2xCR13 characters run into a CR20 encounter, you dont have much choice...




They set up the meeting (not knowing it was a red dragon (and the parent of the younger red dragon they piped many levels ago)).  I honestly figured that once things hit the fan, they'd teleport out.



			
				Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> Im seeing 4 of 7 powers built out for nova-ing... except Im not sure what role Time Hop played (getting her friends safely in the future and out of the way?), one of which cost a feat... what was the kill card, if I may ask?




Actually, her powers centered around temporal control (it was a very cool backstory).  The kill card was a combo of Schism + Energy Ray + Anticipatory Strike (I'm not sure, but there may have been a fission involved).  She even managed to burn through a Protection from Energy Spell.  I don't believe Time Hop came into play in this fight (her standard op of fights was to death urge foes, Time Hop those she couldn't urge, and if any of her teammates wound up in trouble, she'd Time Hop them and herself out of the fight).

I think she started the campaign at 7th level.


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 11, 2006)

My group and I had a discussion before our game on Wednesday.  It came up, Does anyone think that they could beat my character in a straight out fight.  No one thought that they could.  Our Warforge paladin/Cleric/Exorcist of the silver flame whom I thought would have been the most dificult opponent even thought he would lose.

Granted that I have worked at building within the rules an effective character, but when everyone thinks that you have the power character, it makes you think about the class being broken.  This may be accentuated because the character is a Psion/Wizard/Cerebremancer with effective levels 14 Psion/13 Wizard and CL/ML of 17/17.

Over the last two sessions, we had 5 encounters, with no rest inbetween, a single dragon, 5 dragons, 2 dragons, multiple giants and a colossal carrion crawler.  We are nearing the end of the age of wyrms campaign.  In our last encounter, all but the Wizard and my Psion had been downed or chased off by the colossal carrion crawler.  The Wizard and I spent 10+ rounds flying, being invisible, greater blinking and spelling this creature to death.  My Psion has 20 PP left and a half dozen spells of which 3 are magic missile.

When I can out last most of our party and still have some reserves left, albeit small, after 5 encounters, there must be something wrong.  We still don't have time to rest either.  I can't put my finger on.  The problem may be more that I have this combination of classes that support each other.  The Mystic Thurge is not a fair comparison since they have to have 2 stats to cosider each with bonuses.  The Cerebremancer, Psion and Wizard only have one.

This is a campaign that was started at 1st level and I joined this group at 2nd level.

I don't plan on closing this thread but I am banging my head against a wall that I and a few who comment see but the vast majority think that there isn't a problem.

James


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 11, 2006)

IcyCool said:
			
		

> They set up the meeting (not knowing it was a red dragon (and the parent of the younger red dragon they piped many levels ago)).  I honestly figured that once things hit the fan, they'd teleport out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Not to criticize the GM, or the game.. sounds like a cool character concept, and perhaps an unintentional, rather than intentional, nova build (time manipulation is usually pretty mean in games, IMHO), and a neat (if unexpected!) outcome of a meeting gone terribly awry...

But boy, if that Dragon had been even a wee bit paranoid and had a MGoI up...  actually, I imagine she would have swtiched  MOs, picked up her teammate in her accelerated time frame, and run like heck.

-stops and thinks-  I think there may be some errata on the Anticipatory Strike... I know there were some powers, related to time, not in the core Psionic rules, that were being used to VERY good effect in Novas, and later modified.  I wish I had the link for the 'Nova' thread on the psi boards... theres some great discussions about how to, what is and isnt legal, and when to/not to/ 'good of the game' style concerns.


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 11, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> My group and I had a discussion before our game on Wednesday.  It came up, Does anyone think that they could beat my character in a straight out fight.  No one thought that they could.  Our Warforge paladin/Cleric/Exorcist of the silver flame whom I thought would have been the most dificult opponent even thought he would lose.
> 
> Granted that I have worked at building within the rules an effective character, but when everyone thinks that you have the power character, it makes you think about the class being broken.  This may be accentuated because the character is a Psion/Wizard/Cerebremancer with effective levels 14 Psion/13 Wizard and CL/ML of 17/17.
> 
> ...




Well, your character is, IMHO, more mechanically proficient in design than your teammates.  There may be a self-supporting synergy here (though that is counter-intuitive, given people USUAL appraisal of the mystic theurge... perhaps the combination of having only one Prime Requisite stat, as well as having a 'defense utility' casting half and a 'flaming nuking' casting half is driving the ability to perform outside usual bounds)

IMHO?  Chunk the very efficient power and feat selection to get something more 'in bounds' with what the rest of your party is packing, build efficiency wise.  Specifically any power related to time or extra actions, all the practiced spellcaster/manifester stuff, and the nifty-neato Eberron feat that I dont know, but that everyone else speaks dangerously highly of.  Get feats in line with what the rest of your party is packing, go for some flavour.  Maybe get some crafting feats and blow some XPs making the rest of the party cooler...

Whatever the outcome of a balance discussion, balance is also a choice.. one made every day, by players and GMs.  Whether or not Psionics is broken, I'm sure we can get you in a place where you dont outshine your party.


----------



## FrostedMini1337 (Aug 11, 2006)

The party thing is a bad idea.  In every party, one guy will be able to stomp somone else most likely, espesically spellcasters.

Also note that when XPH came out, there was no Practiced Spellcaster or Practiced Manifester, both of which are kind of messily powerful with certain builds.  Now if Practiced Spellcaster can be powerful in some builds, and Practiced Manifester is powerful in all builds, I wonder what would happen if I could somehow harness the power of both of them...

Oh, I'd have your PrC. 

Gawd yes it's powerful, but your 17th level (On ebberon no less).

Is your issue with the PrC or the Psion?  I'm confused now.  As a psion, I don't think you would have been able to crank that much out, because you'd be burning feats to gain acess to the wizard spells you were shooting out.

To clarify my position: I'd agree that psionics is broken if magic is the base line.  I think magic got robbed, but if you're going to dumb down the psion in some manner, you need to tone down the wizard as well.


----------



## Thanee (Aug 11, 2006)

Ha, I actually found some older posts of mine...

[SBLOCK]Psion level 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th (these are the levels at which the "important" spell levels cap, so in favor to the arcanists), assuming reasonable stats (starting at 16, all level improvements applied to them and +2/+4/+6/+6 item included, as well as a +3 inherent at 20th level, also from 15th level onwards, I'll assume each power costs 1 PP less thanks to the torque of psionic world domination ).

5th PP total 25+10=35
10th PP total 88+30=118
15th PP total 195+52=247 (-1 PP per manifestation)
20th PP total 343+100=443 (-1 PP per manifestation)

A 5th level psion can manifest roughly 7 _fully augmented_ powers per day.
A 10th level psion can manifest roughly 12 _fully augmented_ powers per day.
A 15th level psion can manifest roughly 18 _fully augmented_ powers per day.
A 20th level psion can manifest roughly 23 _fully augmented_ powers per day.

A 5th level psion knows 11 powers, let's say 5 of those are equivalent to 3rd level powers.
A 10th level psion knows 21 powers, let's say 10 of those are equivalent to 5th level powers.
A 15th level psion knows 28 powers, let's say 14 of those are equivalent to 8th level powers.
A 20th level psion knows 36 powers, let's say 18 of those are equivalent to 9th level powers.

The reduced number (1/2) for the highest level powers comes from the fact, that not all are augmentable and a few are simply not worth it anymore. I guess this is a fair assumption.



Now for the sorcerer spells per day and wizard spells known (0th not included).

Note, that the sorcerer is leagues behind in spells known and the wizard somewhat lacks behind in spellcastings per day, still I pick the optimum from both classes in this comparison in each case!

A 5th level sorcerer can cast 7/5/0! spells per day.
A 10th level sorcerer can cast 8/8/7/6/4 spells per day.
A 15th level sorcerer can cast 8/8/7/7/7/7/4/0! spells per day.
A 20th level sorcerer can cast 9/9/8/8/8/8/7/7/7 spells per day.

A 5th level wizard knows 14 spells, 2 of those are 3rd level.
A 10th level wizard knows 24 spells, 4 of those are 5th level.
A 15th level wizard knows 34 spells, 2 of those are 8th level.
A 20th level wizard knows 44 spells, 8 of those are 9th level.

(plus some more (usually lower level) spells added with money, of course.)



So, what do we see here, considering that the psion goes for maximum possible effect and wastes PP at the highest possible rate, the sorcerer needs to resort to the 3-4 highest spell levels to keep up with that number of manifestations. Sure, the sorcerer still has some weak spells left, but then again, each of the psion's manifestations was more powerful (easily up to twice as powerful, considering the lower spell levels involved, I guess there is no argument, that an 8th level power is much, much more powerful than a 5th level spell).

Also, the psion knows not that much fewer powers than the wizard knows spells in total, however, the wizard can add more for money, which will most certainly double or triple the number of spells known, but the psion's powers also are in most cases at least worth as much as three spells known, since they include all the lower and higher versions the wizard has to learn seperately, and which are included in this knowledge. So the psion is not really that much behind here for sure. If we look at the highest levels only, then the psion is way ahead even with two to three times as many different high level powers to choose from.



Now in total this means, the psion has the knowledge base of the wizard and _almost_ the casting endurance of the sorcerer, while the psion with no doubt has an equal or higher total power in every single manifestation as compared to the spellcasting of both sorcerer and wizard.

And this does not take into account the lack of verbal, somatic and material component, the ability to manifest in full plate armor; that the psion is in all ways at the level of the wizard when it comes to gimmicks (skills, feats) and way ahead of the sorcerer here, or to look at it from the other perspective has spontaneous manifestation, which the wizard lacks and which is a huge advantage. It also does not take into account the obviously much better flexibility psions enjoy when it comes to distributing their PP over the day, or when it comes to manifesting a single power (best example the Energy line, but also stuff like Dominate can be custom tailored for the situation each time it is manifested, and these certainly are not the only examples).


Best of both worlds, I say, with basically none of the disadvantages of either sorcerer or wizard!

Fair? Hardly! [/SBLOCK]

[SBLOCK]Here's the picture I had made for the last thread () again. It shows a 10th level sorcerer and a 10th level psion and what they can do with their spells/powers in a day. The psion augments every single power to the max!

The vertical axis is spell/power level times caster/manifester level (including the spell caps) to show how effective overall one such spell/power is.







The total effect is pretty similar in one day (the picture is certainly not 100% accurate to show this, but should be close enough to demonstrate the similarity), and that is *only* the case if the sorcerer is able to use all spells slots (at which point the sorcerer probably has a slight advantage on that particular day), which simply will not be the case every day. And everytime the sorcerer does not, the psions advantage improves (which is a lot more often in an average campaign, which is not completely tailored towards the need to balance psions, which should not be such a game-altering requirement to the DM, no class should work that way, that it can only be balanced, if the DM dramatically favors the other classes with the campaign style).

And that's just the spellcasting versus manifesting, which does not include the much higher number of high level powers the psion has available, the better flexibility, which is likewise not included here, the effective powers without augmentation, the lack of components, and so on. The psions advantages put that class way ahead here as there are almost no disadvantages to balance them (only really noteworthy are the smaller power base, that is there are more arcane spells available to pick from, and the weaker party buffs).[/SBLOCK]

[SBLOCK]







> *Damage is the Only Common Ground.*
> 
> To compare the two, the only true real basis for analysis is damage output. The usefulness of other powers and spells is too dependent on other factors such as the DM's style, the environment, etc, and therefore can’t be taken into consideration here.




It's one way to compare, but certainly not the only one and surely (IMHO) not the best one (especially not, if the numbers are flawed, which easily happens, not to blame you there, just the system ). I believe the best way is to simply compare spell/power levels at the same scaling/augmentation level, as I have tried earlier.

Why? Because it doesn't focus on single spells/powers, which by themselves could (and most certainly will) not be fully balanced among each other, or single hypothetical situations only; it focuses on the potential, which can be brought to bear, be it damage, utility or whatnot. It's more generic and includes many more situations than simple damage dealing ever could. Still it is accurate, since spell levels and caster/manifester levels are the base for the whole system and very much compareable.

The crux of this comparison is the following:

*An x-th level spell of y-th caster level (but not higher than the cap) has about the same effect as an x-th level power augmented to y-th manifester level.*

The powers are often more flexible by themselves (especially when looking at the kineticist powers, of course), but the actual effect will be and should be _roughly_ the same. The flexibility itself is not covered here, however. The power also costs more effectively, because "scaling" has to be paid for, but this cost is obviously included already, if you compare the augmented power and look how many of those can be manifested compared to scaled-up spells. But do not forget here, that quite a few powers are available also, which have their full effect at minimum augmentation level (in fact do not even have any augmentation in most cases, Fly or Metamorphosis are two of those), so it is not needed to fully augment every power (duration and range do scale for free for psions in the same way as they do for the sorcerer).

With this in mind, the number of spellcastings/manifestations per day is being compared.

I believe, that in this comparison, the sorcerer and psion come out about even... so far. The sorcerer will win in the endurance department (additional low-level effects), obviously, while the psion clearly wins in the raw power department (more powerful effects in a short time). I consider the latter to be more important (which the "Mystic Theurge problem" effectively demonstrates, who suffers greatly from the lack of high level effects, which is not fully compensated by the huge amount of low level effects they have until they reach very high levels (and by then have much, much more additional low level effects than the sorcerer has over the psion)), but that's just an opinion like any other. All in all, I think it's ok up to this point and neither class is at a considerable advantage yet.

Now, if they are about even up to this point, if you look at what is left, because the above is not the whole picture yet, the psion has such a clear advantage there, that it's not even funny.

+ usually higher save DCs on augmented powers (further increased by psionatrix)
+ faster access to higher power levels
+ more "effective spells" known (one power includes more than one spell in most cases), much more high level spells/powers among those (and on top of that the ability to swap all powers, skills and feats out _completely_ at an XP cost)
+ much higher flexibility and the ability to manifest more high level powers or a huge amount of low level powers
+ many powers have built-in flexibility, which similar spells lack usually
+ no need for many metamagic feats (Heighten, Still, Silent, Energy Affinity mostly)
+ Quicken Power
+ no verbal, somatic, material components (grapple, silence)
+ bonus feats
+ better feat choices
+ better skills (more effective skill points and better class skill list)
+ armor
- lack of good party buffs, often powers are personal only
- weaker base to pick powers from, there simply are more spells out there
- more restricted by discipline lists (tho, since they have plenty more feats (bonus feats and non-dependancy on metamagic feats), this can be circumvented with Expanded Knowledge to a degree)
- psionic focus issues (tho the feats (Psionic Endowment/Penetration most importantly) are better in comparison and the focus issues can be circumvented to a degree)

If I have missed something important here, please point it out, I'll gladly add it to the list. [/SBLOCK]

[SBLOCK]







> How so? A 10th level sorcerer gets 3 more spells than a psion gets powers and the psion is forced to specialize.




Yeah, if you simply add up spells known (including the almighty 0th level spells, which make up a considerable amount there (over 1/3 of the total) ) and compare them *one-by-one* to powers known... but this comparison is _highly flawed_.

1) Because of the already mentioned 0th level spells, which can be ignored pretty much. Except for Detect Magic mostly, which the psion has to waste a single 1st level power on.
2) Because a single power known is "worth" a lot more than a single spell known in most cases, since all the lesser and greater, or I, II, III, etc versions are already included. To be fair, this is partially (but not even close to fully) compensated by the sorcerers ability to swap out single spells every other level.
3) Because a 10th level sorcerer knows exactly *one* 5th level spell, while a psion knows *four* (real) 5th level powers, plus all the lower level ones, which include higher level versions via augmentation, which will add another 8-10 to the tally for sure.

Spell/Power Level | Sorcerer Spells Known | Psion Powers Known

0th | 9 | - (1 - Detect Psionics)
1st | 5 | 5 (4)
2nd | 4 | 4+
3rd | 3 | 4++
4th | 2 | 4+++
5th | 1 | 4++++

That's how.[/SBLOCK]

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Thanee (Aug 11, 2006)

BTW, there are a few verbalisations (esp. in the first one), which are a little misleading probably, so don't be too picky on such details and try to discern the meaning within the context rather than pounce on the specific word combinations. 

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Slaved (Aug 11, 2006)

IcyCool said:
			
		

> They set up the meeting (not knowing it was a red dragon (and the parent of the younger red dragon they piped many levels ago)).  I honestly figured that once things hit the fan, they'd teleport out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I was sent over from a different site to take a look at this and I am very curious about it.

How did the character actually kill the beast? Protection from energy would give 120 points of protection, the beast has spell resistance, a touch attack had to be made, and it had rather a lot of hit points to begin with.

Did the wilder make its save vs fear? If not then it would've been shaken. After using temporal acceleration it would've been shaken again, making it frightened and forcing it to flee from the battle.

It takes a round to put up schism, then it couldnt help much with the battle between spell resistance and a lack of fingers which prevents it from using energy ray.

With the wilder pumping out an energy ray every round, if it knew the beasts weakness which is not assured, could do 18d8+18*1.5(weakness)*0.95(misschance)*0.75(SR)=86.56875 which means it would've taken an average of 5.753 rounds to kill off the dragon. This gives a 20% chance each time of enervating as well which would end the wilders next turn.

During any one round without massive defenses the wilder dies to either the breath weapon (16d10, average 88, DC 31, the wilder would need at least a 16 con to survive a single failed save on average) or a single round of attacks (average damage if all hit is 93).

It would seem that more information is required. Just going by the information given so far it would seem to be impossible for the wilder to have won, or even done anything effective.

Please do not take this as an attack. We are all trying to understand balance here I hope and this situation bears some looking in to.


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 11, 2006)

Way too much material for me to respond to all at once, Thanee... but definitely food for thought.

I still think the individually-superior spells (Evards, Color Spray, Ottos, Mordenkainens) coupled with the XP-Cost differences (several psionic powers have XP costs absent from their magic counterpoints), the PRC and crafting differences (More and better, of both, as options), the feat availability (Psion starts out down 2 feats vs. Magi.. I know you want to compare to Sorc... I really prefer the Mage for this comparison, because I think the Sorceror is a spontaneous caster burdened by a Memorization system.  Both the wizard and psion are fish in their element, for lack of a better way to put it) taken together, redress your concerns.  

However, the fact that a Psion stays at 'full burn' until his transformation into a Commoner certainly does change his dynamic!  (Note, in my games, the psion usually tapers off in the last half of his PsPs.. spending less and less, in the intent of having some left over.. but unlike the Sorc, he certainly CAN 'burn it all' if he chooses).

Hmm... that seems to be, ultimately, what it comes down to.  No matter how you slice it, anything a Psion can do, an Arcane can almost certainly do better.. and in many situations, especially given a days prep, the Arcanist can do things the Psion could not even imagine.  However, the Psion is always ready to go, and can usually go from cold to full burn in a round or two (sometimes FAR less, with the proper time manipuation/buff prep powers).

So, for people who are in situations where the party is pro-active (planning ahead, putting their own plans in motion, etc.) the arcanist, and especially the magi, shine.  Typical freeform gaming, or mid-high level situations.  Also any case where a DM relaxes his death-grip on the fate of the poor players.

In situations where the DM retains that death-grip, and forces the players to continually react to being outclassed/outmanuvered/suprised/unable to prepare (or even think) in advance, the Psion is going to SHINE (at least until he gutters out).  If the players cant think, cant plan, cant breathe, and dont know what downtime smells like, the Wizards strengths are masked and those of the Psion are at their height (again, barring exhaustion).

Hmm... proposition:  The GMs who maintain tight control over player choices, freedom of action, and 'free will' are those GMs who likely have the most comfort issues with player power of any sort.  When those GMs find that the Psion doesnt fold as quickly under their strictures as the Magi (whom said GMs are used to ambushing, grabbing, etc... and whom said GMs would NEVER allow to sit at home and scry away, planning the assault on the Dark Lords Fortress...)... those GMs go nuts about Psionics, because they cant 'turn it off' as easily as they can Arcane (or Divine.. but the games where the GM is crushing everything under their booted heel are the same games where the GM will likely squish any aspiring CoDzilla before it matures).

Not sure, here, but considering the WIDE disparity of observations (from the 'psionics is neat but underpowered vs. arcane' to 'psionics is neat but overpowered vs. arcane'), it might make sense that we really are suffering under some observer bias.. were seeing different things in different games.


----------



## FrostedMini1337 (Aug 11, 2006)

Wow Thanee that is an assload of work.

*Quiet applause*

My 2 Cents:
_Damage is the Only Common Ground.

To compare the two, the only true real basis for analysis is damage output. The usefulness of other powers and spells is too dependent on other factors such as the DM's style, the environment, etc, and therefore can’t be taken into consideration here._

But it has to be taken in to consideration somewhere.  The fact that if a psion wants to Charm _and_ teleport(for example) he has to burn a feat, is a pretty big setback imo.

In any event, again, what an amazinng amount of work.


----------



## Thanee (Aug 11, 2006)

Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> Way too much material for me to respond to all at once, Thanee... but definitely food for thought.




 



> Hmm... that seems to be, ultimately, what it comes down to.  No matter how you slice it, anything a Psion can do, an Arcane can almost certainly do better..




Ahem.

I sure hope you are kidding here... how many examples do you want?

Spontaneous manifesting (when you want to compare with the wizard)?
Manifesting in a grapple? While _silenced_? And wearing full-plate armor?
Choosing energy types for spells freely (yeah, some Archmages can do that, too)?
_Dominate Monster_ at what 8th level? 10th?
(Not completely the same, but for the most important parts. This is a 9th-level spell and not a 5th-level spell for a reason.)

There are certainly _many_ specific things, that arcanists can do better, and there are other downsides as well, but being able to 'almost certainly' do anything better is a *huge stretch* at best. From the things psions _can_ do, a whole lot they do _a lot_ better than any arcanist can ever hope (including the arcanists signature abilities, as defined by the DMG).

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Thanee (Aug 11, 2006)

FrostedMini1337 said:
			
		

> But it has to be taken in to consideration somewhere.  The fact that if a psion wants to Charm _and_ teleport(for example) he has to burn a feat, is a pretty big setback imo.




Here:



> - weaker base to pick powers from, there simply are more spells out there
> - more restricted by discipline lists (tho, since they have plenty more feats (bonus feats and non-dependancy on metamagic feats), this can be circumvented with Expanded Knowledge to a degree)




It's listed in the big list of advantages and disadvantages, I've tried to write together (hopefully fairly complete).


And thanks! 

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 12, 2006)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Ahem.
> 
> I sure hope you are kidding here... how many examples do you want?
> 
> ...




Hmm... I suppose I gave you that one for free. I meant in the sense of 'solving specific sorts of problems' not in the sense of 'different class abilities'

Im curious as to your thoughts on the second part of my post... that bit struck me like an epiphany, and I'm really wondering about peoples thoughts on it.


----------



## FrostedMini1337 (Aug 12, 2006)

@ Thanee Right, I'm saying to me and the people I play with these are HUGE setbacks to us.

Note: I just realized that as per the core rules, the bonus psion feat can be just a generic psionic feat.  IMG it's always had to been a metapsionic, psicreation, or 1 or 2 DM discretion feats.  I'm not even sure if it's an offical house rule or we're all just dumb.


----------



## Spatzimaus (Aug 12, 2006)

FrostedMini1337 said:
			
		

> Note: I just realized that as per the core rules, the bonus psion feat can be just a generic psionic feat.




From the SRD:

" A psion gains a bonus feat at 1st level, 5th level, 10th level, 15th level, and 20th level. This feat must be a psionic feat, a metapsionic feat, or a psionic item creation feat."


----------



## FrostedMini1337 (Aug 12, 2006)

Spatzimaus said:
			
		

> From the SRD:
> 
> " A psion gains a bonus feat at 1st level, 5th level, 10th level, 15th level, and 20th level. This feat must be a psionic feat, a metapsionic feat, or a psionic item creation feat."




Right.  That's what I said.  
I'm saying that's bad mojo, because with it you can take Expanded Knowledge (among other things, and the main thing that balances psionics for me and mine is that you have to burn feat to achieve versatility)


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 12, 2006)

FrostedMini1337 said:
			
		

> Right.  That's what I said.
> I'm saying that's bad mojo, because with it you can take Expanded Knowledge (among other things, and the main thing that balances psionics for me and mine is that you have to burn feat to achieve versatility)




Well, you COULD.. or you could blow two feats getting a familiar and scribe scroll.. err.. I mean a Psicrystal and Inscribe Power Stone.  Both incredibly useful, both things that a Wizard gets as class features, and enough to put you back at 1 or 0 feats for 1st lvl...


----------



## Nyeshet (Aug 12, 2006)

Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> Im curious as to your thoughts on the second part of my post... that bit struck me like an epiphany, and I'm really wondering about peoples thoughts on it.



I agree. If the DM sets up a game that plays to the strengths of one class to the expense of another class, then certainly the former will seem overpowered in comparison to the latter. Personally, I tend to think that Psionics is somewhat underpowered, but then I tend to allow quite a bit of planning time, as I tend to think that forcing them through the meat grinder (so to speak) is uncharitable and un-fun. They tend to enjoy finding the information and working out how best to use it to their advantage, and I tend to prefer and encourage such strategic play. Of course, I also limit some spells /powers a bit - including pushing up a couple levels those that raise dead, so that they are not as negligent with their mortality. 

The psion is good for the unexpected situations, while the wizard (its true comparative class when comparing the two systems, not the sorcerer as some have suggested) is best when the party has time to prepare, to scout and plan.


----------



## Thanee (Aug 12, 2006)

Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> Hmm... I suppose I gave you that one for free. I meant in the sense of 'solving specific sorts of problems' not in the sense of 'different class abilities'




Ok. Then I think, I see where the issue lies.



> Im curious as to your thoughts on the second part of my post... that bit struck me like an epiphany, and I'm really wondering about peoples thoughts on it.




Of course, when we only look at the core rules for the concepts, i.e. sorcerer vs wizard, that's the primary distinction between the two:

Wizards are almost unbeatable (in terms of overall class power) in an environment, where they know what challenges they are going to face. Of course, they also need to know the right spells, which is more likely for them as for sorcerers, for obvious reasons.

Sorcerers (specifically, sorcerers with a good, versatile spell selections; themed sorcerers, which many people like to play for roleplaying reasons, are obviously much weaker, but shouldn't really be considered here, since they are basically limiting themselves by choice) can instantly react to any challenges that present themselves. In some cases they won't have an optimum response, but in most cases (from my experience at least) they do have a good response.

Here the comparison in spells is not against the spells known, but spells known vs spells prepared, which is a much smaller amount suddenly, and which is why the sorcerer easily wins out here. Also, once the wizard starts to use up spells, the number of different answers slowly diminishes, while the sorcerer usually keeps all options for the whole day, except some higher level ones eventually.

Spontaneous casting is *very* powerful. IMHO the most powerful ability (apart from spellcasting itself) in the game. Obviously, the designers also thought so, otherwise the sorcerer wouldn't lose so much against the wizard (i.e. bonus feats, delayed spell levels, etc).

And once they reach decent levels, sorcerers know *enough* spells to have answers to almost any situation. Not the perfect one, but a good one. It's universally agreed upon (from observation of similar topics) that sorcerers become too powerful too fast if they would gain much more spells known than they do. A little more would probably be alright, though.

And that brings us back to the aforementioned issue. (Tell me if my deductions are wrong.)

You compare psions with wizards, and you compare them in a way, where you treat (probably not even intentionally) wizards as having a great spell selection useful for whatever comes up against them prepared all the time. You think about a situation... then you think about what a wizard could have prepared to solve it. There's almost always a perfect solution available. That's where you came from, when you said, that arcanists are always superior up there (the part I misinterpreted a little ).

Of course - in theory - the wizard will be able to solve every situation in a pretty much perfect manner. But that's pure theory. In practice, they cannot prepare ahead for every possible situation, and they often won't know ahead of time what's going to happen. And often, they will find their spell selection that they prepared to be somewhat lacking. If that is not the case... then wizards are being prefered by the environment (playing style, whatever), which lets them appear more powerful than they really are (unless one limits the observation only to those cases, but that's not the whole picture then), and sorcerers appear weak, because they are robbed of their advantages in such an environment.

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Thanee (Aug 12, 2006)

Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> Well, you COULD.. or you could blow two feats getting a familiar and scribe scroll.. err.. I mean a Psicrystal and Inscribe Power Stone.  Both incredibly useful, both things that a Wizard gets as class features, and enough to put you back at 1 or 0 feats for 1st lvl...




And how many feats would the wizard have to use up to gain spontaneous casting (from their whole spells known)? 10? 20?

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Zimbel16 (Aug 12, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> My group and I had a discussion before our game on Wednesday.  It came up, Does anyone think that they could beat my character in a straight out fight.  No one thought that they could.  Our Warforge paladin/Cleric/Exorcist of the silver flame whom I thought would have been the most dificult opponent even thought he would lose.



This is not an uncommon experience for high-level major spellcasters. Even worse from their point of view, you've focused on defense.


			
				wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> Granted that I have worked at building within the rules an effective character, but when everyone thinks that you have the power character, it makes you think about the class being broken.  This may be accentuated because the character is a Psion/Wizard/Cerebremancer with effective levels 14 Psion/13 Wizard and CL/ML of 17/17.
> 
> Over the last two sessions, we had 5 encounters, with no rest inbetween, a single dragon, 5 dragons, 2 dragons, multiple giants and a colossal carrion crawler.  We are nearing the end of the age of wyrms campaign.  In our last encounter, all but the Wizard and my Psion had been downed or chased off by the colossal carrion crawler.  The Wizard and I spent 10+ rounds flying, being invisible, greater blinking and spelling this creature to death.  My Psion has 20 PP left and a half dozen spells of which 3 are magic missile.
> 
> When I can out last most of our party and still have some reserves left, albeit small, after 5 encounters, there must be something wrong.  We still don't have time to rest either.  I can't put my finger on.  The problem may be more that I have this combination of classes that support each other.  The Mystic Thurge is not a fair comparison since they have to have 2 stats to cosider each with bonuses.  The Cerebremancer, Psion and Wizard only have one.



I'm not clear as to what's wrong; from the above description, your PC is roughly around the power of the party Wizard, which is about right. You're a major high-level spellcaster focusing on defense - you, very simply, will survive things that other PCs can't dream of surviving. Both of my previous high-level spellcasters (Magister (from Arcana Evolved), Sorcerer) had simular issues, and they weren't even focused on defense.

Inversely, you can think of it this way: if it weren't for your PC, you likely would have had a TPK (Total Party Kill). Most groups consider a TPK a bad thing.

In any case, if you think your PC is too strong, I'd ban your most powerful 1-2 psionic powers, until you think that you're close in power (Temporal Acceleration would be my top canidate). Although Thanee may be correct on Psions being too powerful, it's easier to ban (or modify) a power or two than to re-balance a class.


----------



## Thanee (Aug 12, 2006)

FrostedMini1337 said:
			
		

> @ Thanee Right, I'm saying to me and the people I play with these are HUGE setbacks to us.




Absolutely. They are huge drawbacks. That's why I tend to list them or mention them in such a comparison, because they do have quite an influence.

There are a few advantages, though, that are also pretty huge.

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 12, 2006)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Ok. Then I think, I see where the issue lies.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





-nods-  And if your used to playing in (what I would consider) highly GM focused/controlled games (also likely very heavily combat focused), then your perception of the Sorceror as approaching the Wizards power makes more sense, as compared to the more frequent perception of the Wizard as being clearly superior.

Most of my play experience was classically in more 'sandbox' rather than 'railroad' games.. and in a Sandbox game, the Wizard rules supreme over other Arcane, or Psion style, casters.  My current game is alot more Railroad, and I probably do slightly out-perform the Wizard in the party (though its hard to measure.. hes a Wizard/Fighter/Arcane Knight hybrid, focused on dual wielding, dual wanding, negative levels/status effects/necromancy.  Ill say this.  I envy the HELL out of Innervate and Alter Self, not to mention the 'shuts down other team' casts like Evards and Color Spray.  He envies my raw 'point and click' ability to remove single foes from the battle map at will.  We completement each other WONDERFULLY... but hes the problem solver, I'm Railgun Gandalf)

Hmm.. how do the War Mages and Shadow Blades stack up in your game?

(And, personally, I belive that the Psion IS strictly better than the Sorceror.. though the Sorceror can come close, and I think the PHB2 variant that trades its familiar for metamagic without full round casting times is a heckva treat.  Combine with Practical Metamagic and stand way back..)


----------



## Tikiman (Aug 12, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> I don't plan on closing this thread but I am banging my head against a wall that I and a few who comment see but the vast majority think that there isn't a problem.



As has been stated several times, the problem you're having is that you have a well built character in a group of people who are of average builds.  It sounds as if though you simply know the system better then the rest, and that's a powerful factor in the hands of a caster.  All of you are playing within the rules, but you're using those rule to their fullest.  Everything about your character seems carefully chosen to enhance his power while other characters appear to have let a d20 decide what feat they chose at that level (or even worse, they chose them for flavor reasons  ).  And you have feats/spells that are of questionable power level, and are clearly more powerful then what your comrads have chosen.  The solution to this problem, as has already been stated, is to remove some of his more powerful attributes until he's on par with the rest of the party.  Temporal Acceleration, Practiced 'blah', and Prophecy's Hero are all candidates.

And again, your character is 50% wizard, 50% psion.  If he's overpowered it must be due to both of these characteristics.  The only reason you can do half of the stuff you're doing with psionics is because you have those wizard abilities to back you up.

What you're seeing isn't a problem with the psionics system in particular.  It's a problem with your specific character in your specific group at your specific gaming table.



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> There are simply too many factors which skew the results, like personal preferances, commoness of certain classes (i.e. Psions aren't used in most campaigns, the results are therefore automatically skewed towards Clerics, Druids and Wizards, since they are in the Core rules), specific broken abilities/spells/powers/PrC/etc, which don't say anything about the classes that use them themselves, house rules, specific character choices, player experience, DM experience, playing styles, etc.



The poll specifically gets around these problems.  Classes that did not recieve many votes (such as the Artificeer) were specifically called out as not getting many votes.  Psions got plenty.  And the poll wasn't 'compare class X to class Y' it was just 'rank class power on a scale of 1-10'.  The poll covered 30 different threads, which covered multitudes of different DM's, tables, players, styles, houserules, books allowed, etc.  The average experiences real players have had with the psion indicate that it's power is close to, but a smidge short of the wizard.  The guy who summarized the polls even confessed to an anti-psi bias.  If you want to mathematically test the limites of either class, that's been done time and time again on the Psionics forums in the Myth threads.  Wizards, due mostly to metamagic rods and non-core books, can* win every contest (again, nothing is more powerful then a properly prepaired wizard).  As I linked earlier, the king of a Nova is actually a mage (who can dish out ~73k in one round, or 2k dmg to multiple targets with just a swift action if he's not trying to blow up the world).  I think the best a Psion could do was around 10k.

Oh, and all links to the WotC forums are currently not working because of convention traffic (well, you have to register to see the forums).

*note that I'm saying a wizard 'could' do this, not that every wizard can.  There is some spell in a non-core book that lets the caster spend up to an hour in quite contemplation as a standard action (used to be a 2nd ed spell).  Combine that with leaving spell slots open and a wizard can 'spontaneously' cast any spell in his spell book.  A Silenced DDoor/Teleport (feat or rod or class ability) can get a wizard out of a Silenced Grapple situation (in fact, the mage in wildstarsreach's party can do this).  There are material's and PrCs that can allow a wizard to cast in Full Plate with no negative effects.  As you stated, Archmages can use any energy type (including Acid, which Psions can't), or you can get feats that let you do that, or you could just take one of the several feats that allow your spells to ignore energy resistance (and even immunity to some degree).  5 out of 6 psions have to take a feat to get Dominate, while any wizard of any level could try to cast Dominate Monster from a scroll (I think a UMD build can do this as early as 10 with no chance of failure).  Again, I'm not saying that all mages can do all things better then psions, but when you get into build vs. build, the wizard is always capable of outdoing the psion (sometimes he has to use a backdoor, such as using powers that don't allow saves to compete with psions pumping out high save powers).  In exchange for this, nothing is more gimped then a poorly prepaired mage.  Player skill is very important when playing a wizard, while the psion is much more 'noob friendly'.



> (including the arcanists signature abilities, as defined by the DMG)



Do you mean the ones on page 132?  I've read that and I don't understand what you mean.  A wizard built to do those things is still the king of artillery, utility, items, and telling people what to do.



			
				FrostedMini1337 said:
			
		

> Did the Complete Psionic add a lot of Save or Dies the only ones I can remember are Decerebrate, Microcosm, Assimilate, Crisis of Life, and Disintegrate(Psionic) and Recall Death, with Disintegrate being the stupidest power ever. Crisis of Breath also counts, I guess.



Complete Psionc added a couple of save-or-die type effects.  One of them is like disintigrate but it only targets critters with 3+ int.  Another mimics the petryfying gaze attack of a Medusa.  The only one that actually forces the target to instantly die cannot be taken by a Psion pre-epic (lvl 9 mantle power).  You are correct in the notion that Psions have weaker save or die effects than mages.  To make up for that they're raw damage capabilities are stronger (though a well prepaired mage can still win that contest with non-core material by about 60k damage).

In all, Complete Psionic did more harm to psionics then help, and smacked you with an editing error at leats once every 3 pages.  It's widley considered the worst of the Complete books (average rating 4/10).  I sent mine back.



			
				IcyCool said:
			
		

> Well, when your wilder has Schism, Time Hop, Temporal Acceleration, and the silly power from Races of Destiny (? The one that lets you take your action as if you had readied it, so you can act at pretty much any single point in the initiative count),



I'm slightly confused here.  Anticipitory Strike lets you shift your initiative around, but only after you've taken an action (cannot be used while flat-footed, all player are flat-footed until their iniative come up).  It's like Delaying, but a swift action.  You cannot use this power to go more then once in a round btw.  Synchronicity is a power that is poorly worded, and can therefore become broken.  Much like Temporal Acceleration, it's common advice to pull it from a character if they're found abusing it.  The thing to remember is that it doesn't grant you any extra actions, so if you use it in the 1st round to go twice, you don't get an action in the 2nd round, and can't use any immediate actions until the 3rd round.


----------



## Thanee (Aug 12, 2006)

Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> -nods-  And if your used to playing in (what I would consider) highly GM focused/controlled games (also likely very heavily combat focused), then your perception of the Sorceror as approaching the Wizards power makes more sense, as compared to the more frequent perception of the Wizard as being clearly superior.




I would actually say, that both are highly useful. They both have their advantages and disadvantages, which is also why I say, that both are about equal in power (sorcerer slightly lower maybe, but not much). I've played both often enough. And I've played them in campaigns were planning was possible, and in others were things were more hectical. I think I have seen a large portion of the whole picture with my own eyes already, so to say. 



> Most of my play experience was classically in more 'sandbox' rather than 'railroad' games.. and in a Sandbox game, the Wizard rules supreme over other Arcane, or Psion style, casters.




I wouldn't call that 'railroad', that's such a negative term, and also falsely applied here.

You can have that effect, which you mean there, without forcing players along a certain route (i.e. railroading).



> Hmm.. how do the War Mages and Shadow Blades stack up in your game?




I do not only play in one game. 

War Mages - only seen one in play so far (where I am the DM) and he is very useful (even the 1st level Evocation spell of choice... naturally: _Tenser's Floating Disk_ has been mighty useful ). Overall, I think the class is weaker than a sorcerer, though, because they are a bit too focused.

Shadow Blades - don't even know what that is... 



> (And, personally, I belive that the Psion IS strictly better than the Sorceror.. though the Sorceror can come close, ...




They might appear to come close, but that would be in one specific situation, so to say.
Take the very same characters and put them into a very different situation, and that psion will likely have it much easier to adapt most likely. Do that with lots of situations, and we have a clear winner.



> ...and I think the PHB2 variant that trades its familiar for metamagic without full round casting times is a heckva treat.  Combine with Practical Metamagic and stand way back..)




Metamagic Specialist is great. But losing the familiar hurts. And they have no bonus feats. They also need some metamagic feats to use with that, and then they have pretty much no feats for *anything* else.

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Thanee (Aug 12, 2006)

Tikiman said:
			
		

> If you want to mathematically test the limites of either class, that's been done time and time again on the Psionics forums in the Myth threads.




These sorts of comparisons, and I have seen numerous of them, pretty much always are flawed. It's usually pick spell X or broken combination of weird stuff Y. Most often they use damage as a point of comparison, thus limiting the comparison to such a small fraction of the whole, that it becomes meaningless. None of those will win against a fighter or warlock in a straight damage/day comparison, BTW.  It's simply pointless IMHO.

As for the poll... how many total votes did the Psion get, and how many the Wizard?
How many voters had both a Psion and a Wizard in the game and voted Psion (or Wizard)?

(Suppose the latter isn't even answerable by the information available, but the first should.)

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Zimbel16 (Aug 12, 2006)

Thanee said:
			
		

> And how many feats would the wizard have to use up to gain spontaneous casting (from their whole spells known)? 10? 20?
> 
> Bye
> Thanee



That depends on your definions; if the "spells known" list for the wizard for the purposes of spontaneous casting is equal to the spells/day that they currently can prepare, perhaps 5 (?) Don't get me wrong; I think that spontaneous spellcasting is pretty wonderful, but the most critical thing about making spontaneous spellcasting work well is to limit the spells you can choose from on that particular round. See Arcana Evolved for an alternate take on spontaneous spellcasting (slightly weaker spells on average, large list to choose from, small list prepared at any one particular time).

On the other hand, if it's the size of their spellbook (with standard spellbook rules), I'd accept any non-countably infinite set of feats. (Mostly because I'd love to see someone try to min/max such a set of feats).


----------



## Zimbel16 (Aug 12, 2006)

Tikiman said:
			
		

> Player skill is very important when playing a wizard, while the psion is much more 'noob friendly'.



Interesting; I'd suggest the opposite. A Psion typically can't alter their powers known list, so a player who really isn't familiar with the game can easily get stuck with a bunch of weak powers. A Wizard making the same sort of bad choices can rectify that relatively easily by scribing more spells in their spellbook.


----------



## Zimbel16 (Aug 12, 2006)

Tikiman said:
			
		

> As I linked earlier, the king of a Nova is actually a mage (who can dish out ~73k in one round, or 2k dmg to multiple targets with just a swift action if he's not trying to blow up the world).  I think the best a Psion could do was around 10k.




Fun, but a little silly. After all: 
1) Either way, the opponent is dead. Damage beyond whatever kills your opponent is just wasted effort.
2) It's trivial to do far more total damage in a single round with a single action, and a single spell or power. How? Opponents: Plenty, all size fine, 1 HP each (not a swarm), no defenses worth mentioning. Packed as close together as possible with their face (1/2' cube), in a place where the spellcaster can take advantage of the full volume of the spell (probably in the air). Spellcaster makes a concentration check, and casts any 60' cone spell that does at least 22 points of damage (Cone of cold does nicely, assuming a reasonable damage roll or Empower or Maximize - Energy Cone may not need that help if augmented sufficiently, with a good energy chosen). Each opponent dies at -10 HP, thus taking 11 points of damage each (regardless of save). Since roughly 450,000 creatures have been hit, You're talking about roughly 5,000,000 points of damage in a single round. Note that if you give the opponents more HP, you can actually deal more damage


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 12, 2006)

Psion vs Sorcerer vs Wizard

All have same BA and saves

Psion 
 Has built into most powers the ability to augment to current ML with DC's increased, he spend for the output as he chooses
 Does not have Imprint stone or psycrystal affinity to start
   Imprint stone equivalent to scribe scroll
   Psicrystal affinity equivalent to summon familiar
 Has bonus feat to start
 Doesn't require Verbal, Somantic and Material components for manifestations
 Can choose to manifest powers of any known that is similar to spontaneous casting
 Can make a concentration check to keep manifestations from being known that anything has happened, nothing in spell casting That I know can keep a spell from being seen
 Powers involving energy damage utilize 4 different types choosen at time of manifestation.
 Has several defensive powers that defend against 5 different types of damage with 1 manifestation

Wizard 
 Free Scaling of damage, no ability to do reduced damage
 Doesn't have Heightned feat
 Doesn't have Still Spell Feat
 Doesn't have Silent spell feat
 Doesn't have Enchew materials feat
 Has scribe scroll and summon familiar
 Greatest selection of effects for spells
 Must prepare spells in advance
 Must prepare damage spells from known list, each spell has specific type, needs feat(s) to change to different energy type
Defensive spells typically defend against only one kind of attack

Sorcerer 
 Free scaling of damage, no ability to do reduced damage
 Doesn't have Heightned feat
 Doesn't have Still Spell Feat
 Doesn't have Silent spell feat
 Doesn't have Enchew materials feat
 Has summon familiar
 Can spontaneously cast spells from any known spells 
 Greatest selection of effects for spells though there is a limit to spells know, greater than the Psions powers known
 Must cast damage spells from known list, each spell has specific type, needs feat(s) to change to different energy type
Defensive spells typically defend against only one kind of attack

I'm just putting out the comparison


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 12, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> Psion vs Sorcerer vs Wizard
> 
> All have same BA and saves
> 
> ...




Theres no reason a 'quickened' spell, or any lacking V/S/M, would be any less visible than a supressed-manifestation psionic power.

You can cast spells at a lower level, just not lower than the caster level, IIRC.  I know you can create Items at those lower levels, should work for spells, too.

Arcane defensive spells provide more protection, and can be shared with friends.

Psion raw damage is higher, in the general condition
Arcane save or dies are better, in the general condition
Psicrystals, though costing a feat, are superior to familiars
Psions need feat(s) to apply mutliple metamagics, but are free use metamagic on the fly.


----------



## Tikiman (Aug 12, 2006)

@wildstarsreach: Another thing to add to the Psion list is difficulty using metapsionic feats.  You have to expend focus to use them, so unless you spend 2 more feats you can only use 1 on any given power.  Also, you have to regain your focus, so unless you spend another feat you can only use a metapsionic feat once every 2 rounds (at best, DC20 concentration check to regain focus, full round action).  And something for the wizard, he's got the best support from non-core books.  He has access to more potential spells, items, feats, PrCs, etc.

And forgive me for pestering, but what are you opinions on the shared idea that your character is simply better built then the rest of the party, hence the power discrepency?  It's been brought up a couple of times now and you seem to be ignoring it.

Oh, and there are no actual rules for what happens when a psion manifests w/o displays.  It's 100% DM decision.  If you personally believe that the ability to manifest without being detected at all is to powerful, then simply impliment Rule 0 (which has to be implemented in this case no matter what).  There are some obscure rules for what happens when a wizard manifests a Silent, Stilled spell, and those simply involve penalties to the opponents Spellcraft check.  Many people houserule some sort of opposed bluff/spot checks.



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> As for the poll... how many total votes did the Psion get, and how many the Wizard?
> How many voters had both a Psion and a Wizard in the game and voted Psion (or Wizard)?



The poll doesn't actually show # of votes (it isn't written up in a very formal format).  As I said, classes that did not recieve enough votes were designated at such.  Given that this was a poll of polls, the total number of votes could very well be over a thousand (I remember a single poll on the WotC forums recieved 200 votes).  To quote the pollster:


			
				danielinthewolvesden said:
			
		

> This list is the result of two threads in "Classes & Prestige Classes" and in "Character Optimization." I was able to count around 30 of them for this "poll" (which is pretty darn good, thus this- albeit unscientific- has some validity). The results are below. Note that with that many responses, results are skewed toward the media, of course.



And again, I'm not trying to use that poll as evidence that psionics aren't broken, or that the wizard is more powerful.  I'm just using it as a piece of non-computational evidence towards the case that psionics and magic are close enough to each other in power level that neither of them are, in general, overpowered compared to the other.  To me, this would seem to be supported by the fact that people constantly debate wizard vs. psion and yet never reach a final conclusion (whereas wizard/psion vs. bard is no contest at all   ).



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> These sorts of comparisons, and I have seen numerous of them, pretty much always are flawed. It's usually pick spell X or broken combination of weird stuff Y. Most often they use damage as a point of comparison, thus limiting the comparison to such a small fraction of the whole, that it becomes meaningless. None of those will win against a fighter or warlock in a straight damage/day comparison, BTW.  It's simply pointless IMHO.



Actually, the myth threads are pretty good about not allowing non-core material (the default for any discussion is core+xph only).  This is because when non-core material was allowed it simply wasn't a contest, followed by the anti-psi crowd calling whatever feat/spell the forums used total cheese that no sane DM would allow(eg Searing Spell).  From time to time _Scorching Ray_ is called uber cheese, and sometimes the argument is adjusted to accomodate this.  Broken combos/spells are also usually thrown out (eg Gate).  This very concern has been address multiple times in the dozens of pages contained in the myth threads.

And if you're going to assume that their arguments are flawed, then naturally any arguments in your favor must be flawed as well.  So if you can't use logical arguments, then you've only got player experience to work with.  Poll that experience, and your result turns out to be what the data indicated all along; the Psion and the Wizard are roughly equal to each other.  They've both got their advantages, they've both got their disadvantages.  They can both be made overpowered or underpowered in any given campaign, so it's up to the player to keep themself in balance with their setting.

Oh, and as for the fighter comment, total damage per day has never been an important point.  The Sorc clearly wins the 'total dice/day' race.  Damage/round is usually the crux of the argument.


@Zimbel16: Point #1 has been laughingly pointed out in that very thread.  The comment that stuck in peoples minds was the fact that this caster could easily take out two pit fiends with a swift action.  As for your second point, I'm not 100% sure what you're getting at.  However, when I say 2k damage, I mean 2k damage per target, not total.  Actually it would probably be a bit less if you were using a Cone effect (the build relies upon Split Ray quite a bit).


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 12, 2006)

Tikiman said:
			
		

> @wildstarsreach: Another thing to add to the Psion list is difficulty using metapsionic feats.  You have to expend focus to use them, so unless you spend 2 more feats you can only use 1 on any given power.  Also, you have to regain your focus, so unless you spend another feat you can only use a metapsionic feat once every 2 rounds (at best, DC20 concentration check to regain focus, full round action).  And something for the wizard, he's got the best support from non-core books.  He has access to more potential spells, items, feats, PrCs, etc.
> 
> And forgive me for pestering, but what are you opinions on the shared idea that your character is simply better built then the rest of the party, hence the power discrepency?  It's been brought up a couple of times now and you seem to be ignoring it.
> 
> ...




As my character just made 18th, he is taking psionic meditation and psionic luck.  The meditation is for a quicker recovery of the psionic focus and when action points are spent, Jaden get to choose the best of 3d10 to add to rolls instead of 3d6.

It is possible that I have made a better character but I am not arrogant to say that I'm a better player them the group that I'm in.  We have our rules lawyer who is a lawyer in real life.

The hidden manifestation has been used in non combat encounters for such powers as read thoughts or charm.  

The feats/spells are out of the campaign setting books (Eberron) (ECS, Races, Magic, Sharn and PHE), XPH, Completes, Spell Compendium and core. 

The current DM is going to run our next campaign, the changes are going to be Core + Eberron.  We will get to unlock one thing not in these book per level.  Thereby limiting some of the perceived overpowering.


----------



## Tikiman (Aug 12, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> As my character just made 18th, he is taking psionic meditation and psionic luck. The meditation is for a quicker recovery of the psionic focus and when action points are spent, Jaden get to choose the best of 3d10 to add to rolls instead of 3d6.
> 
> It is possible that I have made a better character but I am not arrogant to say that I'm a better player them the group that I'm in. We have our rules lawyer who is a lawyer in real life.
> 
> The hidden manifestation has been used in non combat encounters for such powers as read thoughts or charm.



You're not being arrogent; your character is in fact above the average quality of the rest of your party.  You've simply taken good feats/powers/spells.  Your character is so above average that the difference in power has become obvious.  And there's a big difference between a rules lawyer and a min-maxer (no offence, I love being a min-maxer myself).  In the future I would suggest steering away from solid classes.  Try challenging yourself by playing something more iffy (like a monk, warlock, wilder, etc).

I'm actually in the same position as you in my regular group, only they're unabashedly horrible when it comes to making characters.  A memorable group we had contained a Half-orc Bard/Warmage, a Halfling Barbarian/Bard/Illusionist, a Warforged Warlock/Sorcerer, and me, a Halfing PsiWar.  Despite taking nothing but Skill Focus: Craft (Cooking, Smithing, Gambling, etc.) for my feats I was still the most powerful character.  Sometimes you just need to realize that your group is a little 'special', and adjust your playstyle accordingly.

Taking Psychic Meditation is not going to help you at all.  Well, it will help you trounce mobs in no time, but that's currently your problem.  May I suggest Toughness instead?   

And what exactly happens when you manifest with no displays is 100% a DM call.  Even if your character isn't spewing ectoplasm out the wazoo, he's still standing there, staring at the target with a rather constipated look on his face.  Spot/Sense Motive checks (opposed by your Bluff/Hide/Manifester Level) could be just what you need.  Remeber, even if you have no displays, you still provoke attacks of opportunity.  And spell like abilities are the same.  No components, yet they provoke AoOs.


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 12, 2006)

Tikiman said:
			
		

> You're not being arrogent; your character is in fact above the average quality of the rest of your party.  You've simply taken good feats/powers/spells.  Your character is so above average that the difference in power has become obvious.  And there's a big difference between a rules lawyer and a min-maxer (no offence, I love being a min-maxer myself).  In the future I would suggest steering away from solid classes.  Try challenging yourself by playing something more iffy (like a monk, warlock, wilder, etc).
> 
> I'm actually in the same position as you in my regular group, only they're unabashedly horrible when it comes to making characters.  A memorable group we had contained a Half-orc Bard/Warmage, a Halfling Barbarian/Bard/Illusionist, a Warforged Warlock/Sorcerer, and me, a Halfing PsiWar.  Despite taking nothing but Skill Focus: Craft (Cooking, Smithing, Gambling, etc.) for my feats I was still the most powerful character.  Sometimes you just need to realize that your group is a little 'special', and adjust your playstyle accordingly.
> 
> ...




Funny thing is that when I made some suggestions about how to scale back, they said don't do so on account of us.  That is why I will continue to pick the best for the character.  I want to make sure that our group survives and stops the age of wyrms.  If they had said or worked with how to fix it, then I would have.


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 12, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> Funny thing is that when I made some suggestions about how to scale back, they said don't do so on account of us.  That is why I will continue to pick the best for the character.  I want to make sure that our group survives and stops the age of wyrms.  If they had said or worked with how to fix it, then I would have.




Then you, sir, are the designated powerhouse, the go-getter, the kill-card, the person what makes stuff dead for your team.

Just dont forget the words of that great philospher, Uncle Ben...


----------



## Tsuul (Aug 12, 2006)

> Funny thing is that when I made some suggestions about how to scale back, they said don't do so on account of us.



Are they just busting your chops?


----------



## Tikiman (Aug 12, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> Funny thing is that when I made some suggestions about how to scale back, they said don't do so on account of us. That is why I will continue to pick the best for the character. I want to make sure that our group survives and stops the age of wyrms. If they had said or worked with how to fix it, then I would have.



To paraphrase one of my friends; "Don't kill Jaden, he's the one that deals damage!"   

Enjoy being the most powerful character for a while.  And have fun storming the castle.


----------



## FrostedMini1337 (Aug 12, 2006)

To further de-rail this: If your DM wanted to be super evil I don't imagine it would be to hard to bone you, especially if your making a bunch of draconic enemies, but he's not because he wants you to succeed.

Note: Cerebremancer is still incredibly powerful.  BTW what was your point buy?  Most classes are balanced assuming you have 1-2 decent stats because your using roll method or 32 point buy.


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 12, 2006)

FrostedMini1337 said:
			
		

> To further de-rail this: If your DM wanted to be super evil I don't imagine it would be to hard to bone you, especially if your making a bunch of draconic enemies, but he's not because he wants you to succeed.
> 
> Note: Cerebremancer is still incredibly powerful.  BTW what was your point buy?  Most classes are balanced assuming you have 1-2 decent stats because your using roll method or 32 point buy.




To stop dracotha, we are going after his phylactory.  He has a hoard of dragons in the area.  That's why we are fighting so many dragons.  Out of the 8 dragons, we've only killed 2 and chased off the rest.

Str 10 (2 pts) Int 18 (16 pts) Wis 10 (2 pts) Dex 12 (4 pts) Con 14 (6 pts) Chr 10 (2 pts)  32 pt buy


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 13, 2006)

Looking through the powers, I found one setback.  All the powers that are direct affecting have to go against PR.  Those that do not are durational enhancements such as claws or weapons.  There is crystal shard which is not subject to PR.

Now, my DM does make it harder, he uses the magic transparency but if a spell reduces the SR, it doesn't reduce the PR.  If a creature has SR, then it has equal PR.


----------



## FrostedMini1337 (Aug 13, 2006)

Crystal Shard, if you ask me, is actually one of the most powerful powers in the game.

Touch Attacks are never hard to make, it gives no spell resistance, and that liches immunity to mind effecting won't matter when the crystal flies through his chest.  Hell you can weapon focus the ray for that matter.


----------



## Zimbel16 (Aug 13, 2006)

Tikiman said:
			
		

> @Zimbel16:  As for your second point, I'm not 100% sure what you're getting at.  However, when I say 2k damage, I mean 2k damage per target, not total.  Actually it would probably be a bit less if you were using a Cone effect (the build relies upon Split Ray quite a bit).



I'm clear on that point; I was simply attempting to make an equivalently silly damage outupt example usuing relatively realistic parameters (against, say, a "swarm" (technical term, not game term) of locusts). I'm sorry if I failed.

Frankly, unless the entire party is min/maxed to this type of extent, the exact numbers here are really irrelevant. Anything which would challenge such a Wiz/Psion/Sor/Druid/... (even when not using the full combo listed here) would be likely insurmountable for any non-major spellcasters (or, possibly, equivalently silly builds). This means, that were I DM, I'd have to either:
1) Remove the PC from the party
Or
2) Reduce the power of the combo substantially (i.e. remove several of the essential elements of that build from the game)

Just to keep the rest of the party relevant. Frankly, in my opinion, the only use for these "I can deal 10^N points of damage/round (where N >= 3)" is to read them to see what should be banned (should it become a problem).


----------



## Nifft (Aug 13, 2006)

Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> Just dont forget the words of that great philospher, Uncle Ben...




With great powers... come great rice recipes?








 -- N


----------



## Thanee (Aug 13, 2006)

LOL 

Bye
Thanee


----------



## JonnyFive (Aug 13, 2006)

and i declare Nifft the winner


----------



## Tikiman (Aug 13, 2006)

Zimbel16 said:
			
		

> I'm clear on that point; I was simply attempting to make an equivalently silly damage outupt example usuing relatively realistic parameters (against, say, a "swarm" (technical term, not game term) of locusts). I'm sorry if I failed.



Sorry, my bad.  I'm used to people posting things like what you said as actual proofs that the 73k dmg build isn't the king of nova.  And the build wasn't meant for actual use either.  The creator never expected to see it in play.  Think of it more like you would Pun-Pun; as an example of just how far the rules can really be taken.  The purpose of the Nova Myth thread was to reply to the dozens of 'Psions are teh kings of Nova, they ruin games' posts.  It did seem to do a good job of stopping those posts.



			
				Zimbel16 said:
			
		

> Frankly, unless the entire party is min/maxed to this type of extent, the exact numbers here are really irrelevant. Anything which would challenge such a Wiz/Psion/Sor/Druid/... (even when not using the full combo listed here) would be likely insurmountable for any non-major spellcasters (or, possibly, equivalently silly builds). This means, that were I DM, I'd have to either:
> 1) Remove the PC from the party
> Or
> 2) Reduce the power of the combo substantially (i.e. remove several of the essential elements of that build from the game)



All wise decisions, but this is another thing that the Nova Myth thread brought to light.  When people saw a wizard doing 73k damage their responses were similar to yours.  It was the fault of non-core material, it would never actually be allowed at the table, and best of all, it was the player's fault.  Nobody even came close to saying that the wizard was overpowered despite what he was clearly, and legally, capable of doing.

Now look at what happens when people post similar things about psions.  The instant reply is 'psionics are overpowered, and therefore must be banned/nerfed'.  Nobody bothered to look at the character and realize that he was a rediculous monster build, or that he was a one trick pony and turned into a level 20 commoner after he was done.  When the forums pointed out the fact that it was the players fault for building such a character (and the DM's for allowing it) the response was ignored/shot down and the 'ban psionics' posts just kept coming.  Psions were clearly subject to a double standard.

No offense intended, but look at the OP here.  His character is 50% wizard, 50% psion.  He's one of the highest level characters in a group, with the most magic items, and with clearly the best build of the bunch.  Despite all this his initial reaction was 'psionics did it, and therefore must be nerfed'.  And people jumped on the bandwagon.  Nobody wanted to fix the problem; they wanted to fix the psion.  It took 6 pages of posts, including some from his own DM, to get him to change his opinion and realize that maybe the psion class wasn't the problem (not that Temporal Acceleration isn't a barrel of fiendish were-monkies).

It's this attitude that has earned psions the nickname 'red-headed stepchild of WotC'.  Well, that and quantum singularities of bull!@#$ like Complete Psionic.    Psi-fans are just a bit jaded and tired of reminding people 'don't blame the psion, blame the player'.


----------



## Tsuul (Aug 13, 2006)

I am concerened about Wildstarsreach mention that wizards and sorcerers "Doesn't have Heightned feat", which implies that psions do get that free. They don't.

Heighten increases the spell level of a spell. It does not increase damage caps that an arcane caster still suffers from. A psion increasing the damage output of a level one power to the same effect that an arcane caster can achieve with a ninth level power is still throwing a level one power. This can be seen through use of the Globe of Invulnerability series of spells to cancel a 20 die damaging level one power.

A psion augmenting a low level power to include the effects of a high level arcane spell (such as charm > charm monster) is still throwing a level one power. 

There is no free Heighten feat effect in play here.

Edit: I just remembered the DC increases for increasing psionic powers. So what is that, half a feat?


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 13, 2006)

Tsuul said:
			
		

> I am concerened about Wildstarsreach mention that wizards and sorcerers "Doesn't have Heightned feat", which implies that psions do get that free. They don't.
> 
> Heighten increases the spell level of a spell. It does not increase damage caps that an arcane caster still suffers from. A psion increasing the damage output of a level one power to the same effect that an arcane caster can achieve with a ninth level power is still throwing a level one power. This can be seen through use of the Globe of Invulnerability series of spells to cancel a 20 die damaging level one power.
> 
> ...




Exactly the but equivalent of a full feat, not all the all of them but many do.  Mind Thrust was the first that I ran into.  For every 2 dice +1 to the DC and with this particular one would have a +10 DC from dice at 20th level and +1 DC for the level of power + the intelligence bonus.  In the case of my character, a DC 30 will save, for 20d10 of damage.  If the target fails, an average of a 110 points of damage.  If he had the empower feat, this would be a DC 29 with and average damage on failing the save of 149 points.  Granted that this is all or nothing but quite powerful.  I still think that there are still is some part of the Psion that are broken.  

Here's some suggestions that I would make.

Energy powers get one type of energy at start.  Knowledge skill of arcana required to gain additional types.  A new energy type is learned based on every 8 ranks in the skill including all bonuses.  Higher level energy powers have same type as the previous ones taken.  

Energy adaptation, 4th level, will only resist one type of energy unless augmented.  For each 2 PP's, and additional type of energy is protected against.

Temporal acceleration, augment to be changed to 8 PP for an extra round.  This power would not give 2 extra rounds until 19th level.  At 19th level you would get 3 extra rounds.  Slows down extra attacks.

Just my thoughts for now


----------



## Bacris (Aug 14, 2006)

Wouldn't the easier option for Temporal Acceleration be to take a note from Complete Psionic and make it a higher level power with negative augmentations?

So make it 9th level, granting 3 rounds, or spend 4 pp less for one fewer round, etc...

And augmentation is not the same as Heighten Spell, as Heighten Spell treats the spell in all ways as higher level, including bypassing effects such as Spell Turning and Globe of Invulnerability.  Augmentation does not cover this aspect.


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 14, 2006)

Bacris said:
			
		

> Wouldn't the easier option for Temporal Acceleration be to take a note from Complete Psionic and make it a higher level power with negative augmentations?
> 
> So make it 9th level, granting 3 rounds, or spend 4 pp less for one fewer round, etc...
> 
> And augmentation is not the same as Heighten Spell, as Heighten Spell treats the spell in all ways as higher level, including bypassing effects such as Spell Turning and Globe of Invulnerability.  Augmentation does not cover this aspect.




But it is equivalent in that most powers allow augmentation and have DC increased.  Yes spell turning and Glode of invulnerability are problems but the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages.


----------



## Tsuul (Aug 14, 2006)

The number of powers that can be DC pumped is probably about half of the powers that have saves, not including powers that only affect objects. 
The psion should get something considering the loss of spell power when compared to a wizard or sorcerer. Augments fill that in nicely.
Just using the class tables (not including bonus spells or PPs based on ability scores) the psion gets 343 points of powers*
Wizards get 564*.
Sorcerers get 726*.

* This is a breakdown of spells into equivalent PPs and uses the Single target Max Damage cap found in the DMG for a 20th level caster. Example, a second level wizard spell costs 3 PPs to cast, and has free damage scaling up to 10 dice (+7pp for free) for a total of 10 points. Note, my math skills are horrid, so while I hope these numbers are correct, they should certainly be close.


When compaired to a wizard a sorcerer gives up infinite spells known, 4 bonus feats, (a free)scribe scroll, and a level lag in learning the next level of spells ---for--- 162 spell points worth of spells and spontanious casting.

When compaired to a wizard a psion gives up infinite spells known, and 221 spell points worth of powers ---for--- spontanious casting, augmentable powers, and a discipline.

When compaired to a sorcerer, a psion has gives up 383 spellpoints, and a familiar ---for--- 4 bonus feats, augmentable powers, a discipline, and no lag in spell/power level



edit: fixed bad math.


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 14, 2006)

Tsuul said:
			
		

> The number of powers that can be DC pumped is probably about half of the powers that have saves, not including powers that only affect objects.
> The psion should get something considering the loss of spell power when compared to a wizard or sorcerer. Augments fill that in nicely.
> Just using the class tables (not including bonus spells or PPs based on ability scores) the psion gets 343 points of powers*
> Wizards get 564*.
> ...




Okay, the Psion gets a bonus feat at 1st level that neither of these get.  He could take Psicrystal Affinity or Imprint Stone.  He could have the affect of a familiar or the psionic equivalent of scribing a scroll.

Again, they have the effect of three feats to start with.  No verbal, somantic or material part of spells.  

I will admit that at the upper end of level 1-20, the Sorcerer and Wizard begin to come back to a more level playing field.  From 6th to 16th is where my I've seen my character out shining some of our party.

At our last game in which we had 3 encounters, the wizard was comparable.  But that was 2 encounters less than my character had.  We were both spent after 3(Wizard) or 5(Cerebremancer) encounters.  Our wizard wasn't there for the previous week with the other 2 encounters.

Now, I'll admit that I haven't played a Sorcerer.  I've considered it due to this list, it is on my choice of future characters.


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 14, 2006)

Bacris said:
			
		

> Wouldn't the easier option for Temporal Acceleration be to take a note from Complete Psionic and make it a higher level power with negative augmentations?
> 
> So make it 9th level, granting 3 rounds, or spend 4 pp less for one fewer round, etc...
> 
> And augmentation is not the same as Heighten Spell, as Heighten Spell treats the spell in all ways as higher level, including bypassing effects such as Spell Turning and Globe of Invulnerability.  Augmentation does not cover this aspect.





Where in the complete psionic is it?


----------



## Zimbel16 (Aug 14, 2006)

*Overpowered*



			
				Tikiman said:
			
		

> Nobody even came close to saying that the wizard was overpowered despite what he was clearly, and legally, capable of doing.
> 
> ...
> 
> Now look at what happens when people post similar things about psions.  The instant reply is 'psionics are overpowered, and therefore must be banned/nerfed'.



Interesting; my opinion is that both classes (as well as the Sorcerer, Druid, and Cleric) are overpowered in comparison to front-liners at high levels. Unfortunately, (other than avoiding high levels), a good fix is non-trivial. Going to, say, Arcana Evolved rules merely changes the names and pushes off the major problems by a few levels.


----------



## Zimbel16 (Aug 14, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> Here's some suggestions that I would make.
> 
> Energy powers get one type of energy at start.  Knowledge skill of arcana required to gain additional types.  A new energy type is learned based on every 8 ranks in the skill including all bonuses.  Higher level energy powers have same type as the previous ones taken.
> 
> ...



I like your ideas, although I'd go for Knowledgesionics for the Energy powers idea (unless you consider both skills the same for magic/psionics transparency).


----------



## Thanee (Aug 14, 2006)

Tikiman said:
			
		

> Nobody even came close to saying that the wizard was overpowered despite what he was clearly, and legally, capable of doing.




Makes sense. While the wizard is extremely powerful at high levels already (most classes are, but spellcasters surely get ahead of everyone else at some point, psionic-users go even farther), you need to exploit broken rules to get there. The psion, however, is broken by default, because the basic psion rules are broken already. That's the big difference.

Nova whatever doesn't mean anything to a normal game.

How a class behaves in a normal situation does.

Bye
Thanee


----------



## KuKu (Aug 14, 2006)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Maybe we could see a breakdown of...
> 
> - Access to magic item creation, types of items, and resources to create "situational" items (Wizard or Cleric wins by a long shot, but Sorcerer vs. Psion could be interesting);
> - Points of ability damage each caster type can do, and how often;
> ...






			
				Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> Works for me, Nifft.
> 
> One thing wed want to nail down early on is what exact books are allowed. While its certainly advantage:Mage the more we restrict it, if we dont, the outcome is going to be some nutso creation that would never appear in a game.
> 
> ...





What happened to this plan? This sounds great! Verifiable points which can be debated rationally instead of a few posters less than helpful "it is just better because I say so". In my experience psionics is hands-down more balanced than the very unbalanced vancian system. The vancian system is just a mess. I think that arguements should be made based on these two posters suggestions though as they make for a much much much much much better structure.


----------



## Taraxia (Aug 14, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> Looking through the powers, I found one setback.  All the powers that are direct affecting have to go against PR.  Those that do not are durational enhancements such as claws or weapons.  There is crystal shard which is not subject to PR.
> 
> Now, my DM does make it harder, he uses the magic transparency but if a spell reduces the SR, it doesn't reduce the PR.  If a creature has SR, then it has equal PR.




Er, you misunderstand transparency. Transparency means that SR *is* PR. They're two words for the same effect, because magic and psionics are the same kind of "energy", so being able to unilaterally "resist" that kind of energy works on both types of uses of that energy.

Taking down SR is the same thing as taking down PR, and vice versa. It's just like how something that blocks Detect Magic also blocks Detect Psionics, or how something that works in an Antimagic Field also works in an Antipsionic Field (or vice versa).


----------



## Taraxia (Aug 14, 2006)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Makes sense. While the wizard is extremely powerful at high levels already (most classes are, but spellcasters surely get ahead of everyone else at some point, psionic-users go even farther), you need to exploit broken rules to get there. The psion, however, is broken by default, because the basic psion rules are broken already. That's the big difference.
> 
> Nova whatever doesn't mean anything to a normal game.
> 
> ...




If you're going to define all the ways a wizard can scale up his power by using metamagic and so on as "broken", sure. The psion was written with the assumption in mind that wizards would, in fact, use the options given to them that they are supposed to use.

Of *course* a character who's not locked into an extremely rigid paradigm of what 1st-level spells vs. 9th-level spells can do solely based on spell level will be broken next to someone who is locked-in that way. But no class was actually written to have that degree of lock-in -- it makes them boring and hard to play.


----------



## Taraxia (Aug 14, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> Okay, the Psion gets a bonus feat at 1st level that neither of these get.  He could take Psicrystal Affinity or Imprint Stone.  He could have the affect of a familiar or the psionic equivalent of scribing a scroll.
> 
> Again, they have the effect of three feats to start with.  No verbal, somantic or material part of spells.




Stop harping on this. It really doesn't matter, given that the most important ways to disrupt a spellcaster -- attacking him or grappling him -- still work perfectly well on a psion.

So you can't use Silence against them. Big deal. That's the only one I can think of that matters -- when have you ever actually found a way to reliably stop a spellcaster by taking away his pouch of material components? A DM who *did* do that on a regular basis would rightfully be called cheestastic.



> At our last game in which we had 3 encounters, the wizard was comparable.  But that was 2 encounters less than my character had.  We were both spent after 3(Wizard) or 5(Cerebremancer) encounters.  Our wizard wasn't there for the previous week with the other 2 encounters.
> 
> Now, I'll admit that I haven't played a Sorcerer.  I've considered it due to this list, it is on my choice of future characters.




All I can say is that if I were playing a wizard or sorcerer in your party I could probably thrash you. It's not at all hard to get a wizard who can outshine a psion if you build him right.


----------



## Tikiman (Aug 14, 2006)

@wildstarsreach;

Did you completely miss the part of this thread where we determined that there wasn't a problem any more?  If you didn't they why are you still so fixated on blaming the psion for a problem that doesn't exist?

Did you completely miss the part of this thread where we showed you that your character was built much better then his comrads?  And the part where you yourself said your friends *wanted* it that way?  If you didn't then why are you still trying to compare your character to your groupmates?  They *want* to be less powerful then you, and have built there characters accordingly.

Did you completely miss the part of this thread where we informed you that your character is 50% wizard, 50% psion?  If you didn't then why are you still trying to pin all of your balance problems on...wait a minute, you don't actually HAVE any levels in Psion (unless you've taken more since what your DM posted).  You've got 3 levels in a non-core racial class, and then 10 levels in a prestige class (which people have agreed could be the problem).  Are you trying to tell us that the last 2 levels you've taken in a psion are what is making you overpowered?

You do not have a psion.  Let me repeat that.  *You do not have a psion.*  You have cobbled together non-core material in a very potent fashion and created a character that is a league ahead of your groupmates (who *WANT* him to be a league ahead).  Do psionics a favor and try a XPH _only_ PsiWar, Wilder, or Psion before you start monkeying with the system.

I'm sorry if this comes of as a bit of an attack, but we are reaching a point of true stupidity here.  Your own DM has told you there isn't a problem. _Your group members have told you there isn't a problem._  Everyone is happy with your character, except you, and even then you only have a problem with half of him.  Despite all of this you're still hell bent on blaming the XPH for what you as a player have done.  Quit passing the buck and realize that your character is overpowered because you made him that way.




			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> How a class behaves in a normal situation does.



And when normal situations were polled across wildly disparate gaming styles, DM's, players, material allowed, etc, it was found that the psion was 5% behind the wizard.

But, just like all other evidence that doesn't agree with you, you're just going to ignore it because anything that disagrees with you is obviously flawed in some fashion.  I'm sorry Thanee, you're 100% correct.  Your baseless opinion does have more validity in an argument then the opinions of hundreds of other gamers backed up by pages upon pages of evidence that has been gone over with a fine tooth comb by both supporters and detractors.  I don't know how I could have ever disagreed with you.

Again, sorry if this post is offensive, but we've gotten into broken record territory.  Same claims, same evidence, same ignoring of said evidence.


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 14, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> Okay, the Psion gets a bonus feat at 1st level that neither of these get.  He could take Psicrystal Affinity or Imprint Stone.  He could have the affect of a familiar or the psionic equivalent of scribing a scroll.
> 
> Again, they have the effect of three feats to start with.  No verbal, somantic or material part of spells.
> 
> ...




Here's one of the counter balancing factors for the Wizard vs the Sorcerer.  The Wizard gets 4 metamagic feats.  This is 11 feats vs 7 feats if both are human.  The wizard can match the sorcerer here and take more feats to increase his effectiveness or take item creation feats to make magic items to improve his effectiveness.  For the sorcerer to take some of these, it seriously degrades his capabilities.

Now the Psion has almost as many feats as the wizard.  Granted that he cannot unlearn a power unlike a sorcerer.  But his powers singlely tend to be individually more powerful than the spell equivalents.  They tend to include all variants of higher levels spells.  Most have augmentations that keep the powers competative with the highest level of powers the psioncan manifest.


----------



## takasi (Aug 14, 2006)

Taraxia said:
			
		

> Er, you misunderstand transparency. Transparency means that SR *is* PR. They're two words for the same effect, because magic and psionics are the same kind of "energy", so being able to unilaterally "resist" that kind of energy works on both types of uses of that energy.




You're right.  What I'm using isn't transparency.  IMC magic and psionics are different.  However, for some strange reason every single creature that the party encounters that has spell resistance just so happens to also have psionic resistance.


----------



## KuKu (Aug 14, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> But his powers singlely tend to be individually more powerful than the spell equivalents.




This looks like a good thing to test with the criteria posted before. If we go by what people have said then it is both true and false, a contradiction. It may be true for some while not true for others and it being generally true is far from proven. Under what circumstances? Using what resources? Which spells and powers are being called into question? What about effects that are unique to one or the other, how do they count? What is the molality of a milkyway?


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 14, 2006)

Tikiman said:
			
		

> @wildstarsreach;
> 
> Did you completely miss the part of this thread where we determined that there wasn't a problem any more?  If you didn't they why are you still so fixated on blaming the psion for a problem that doesn't exist?
> 
> ...




Yes, you are offensive.  You attack Thanee and I instead of looking at the arguments.  I do not take you apology as sincere since you are trying to browbeat us.  You tell Thanee that "I'm sorry Thanee, you're 100% correct.  Your baseless opinion does have more validity in an argument then the opinions of hundreds of other gamers backed up by pages upon pages of evidence that has been gone over with a fine tooth comb by both supporters and detractors."  You attack her.  You attack me.

I love the psionics as they are because I see the advantages.  From a power gaming perspective, a Psion or Erudite is the class to play.  Think about that.  Why do most players choose to play a class.

#1     Power
#2     What they are familiar with.
#3     Theme

Most gamers tend towards #1.  They want they ability to shine.  Power more often gives them that ability.  

By your statement "but we've gotten into broken record territory.  Same claims, same evidence, same ignoring of said evidence", that this thread should be closed.  You appear to want to squash the whole discussion.  I believe that you owe both of us an apology.  I don't know Thanee but respect her opinion because she takes time to think about what she says and that alone deserves respect.  You have shown disrespect to us.  I have not disrespected you when you do not do the same for us.  Try to use the golden rule.  "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

I don't want this thread closed as I think that there is a need to identify and a forum to work at coming up with fixes to balance the classes.


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 14, 2006)

takasi said:
			
		

> You're right.  What I'm using isn't transparency.  IMC magic and psionics are different.  However, for some strange reason every single creature that the party encounters that has spell resistance just so happens to also have psionic resistance.




But you do use the transparency of dispels, Globes or anti-magic.


----------



## takasi (Aug 14, 2006)

wildstarsreach, if you have a problem with a poster inform a moderator.  Keep the focus on the topic, not the posters.  What's being said is more important than who is saying it.  If you ignore this I'm sure this thread will be locked.

With that gentle warning from your DM, let me add something constructive.

I've already posted a few things that strike me as an advantage for the psion, but I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say the class is broken.  A good question to ask might be "Why do some people ban psioniics from their games?"  Is it more because of flavor or is it because of mechanics?

If I were playing the game in Eberron again I definately wouldn't ban psionics due to flavor.  i think the setting has done a good job of building a consistent backstory for psionic material.  (I'm also looking forward to the Secrets of Sarlona supplement.)  However, if I were running the game in a homebrew I might avoid psionics unless I could come up with a good backstory to add them.  It's the same thing with adding Incarnum, Taint, Truename, Bonding, Warlocks, Ninjas, or any other major change to the world.  Whether the mechanics are balanced or not, the background flavor needs make sense in the world and it isn't always going to work.  If someone builds a world and says they don't want monks because they don't like the flavor of unarmed combat in their game then you won't be able to change their mind by simply debating mechanics.

You also have to consider older players who may have a bias against psionics from earlier editions of the game.  Just a few things to consider...


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 14, 2006)

KuKu said:
			
		

> This looks like a good thing to test with the criteria posted before. If we go by what people have said then it is both true and false, a contradiction. It may be true for some while not true for others and it being generally true is far from proven. Under what circumstances? Using what resources? Which spells and powers are being called into question? What about effects that are unique to one or the other, how do they count? What is the molality of a milkyway?




All the energy powers.  They each can utilize 4 types of energy at manifestation.  A wizard or sorcerer would have to have 4 feats of energy substitution to be used with all of there damage spells to be able to match this.

Energy Adaptation, this protects against the equivalent of 5 second level spells or manifestations.  There is no equivalent that I have found in spellcasters.  Allow only one energy type at start but give an additional augment for each 2 PP spent, it can protect against an additional energy type upto the 5 that this protects against.  This would be a maximum of 15 PP at 15th level.

Temporal Acceleration is a sixth level power that gives you one additional round or more.  Time stop is a ninth level spell that gives d4+1 rounds.  I would do one of 3 things.

#1     Leave as is except augment is 1 round for each additional 8 PP.
#2     Make 8th level, does 2 additional rounds for 15 PP and a negative augment for -4 PP's to receive only 1 additional round.
#9     Make 9th level power with no augments and get an additional 1d4 rounds.

This is my two cent anddoes this help you?


----------



## takasi (Aug 14, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> But you do use the transparency of dispels, Globes or anti-magic.




That's true.  So far it hasn't really been a problem though has it?


----------



## Tikiman (Aug 14, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> You appear to want to squash the whole discussion.



You appear to want to ignore the parts of this discussion that don't agree with you.  The first time I tried to politely point out what the problem was (and it turned out to be the actual problem) you just ignored me.  I smacked you around a little bit and *poof* you finally found out what the actual problem was (and then promptly proceeded to ignore it).  If you don't want to get 'attacked', try listening when people are being polite.

And you're STILL dancing around the fact that your character is overpowered because *you made him that way*.  You ignoring us is highly disrespectful (and 'us' includes your DM and group members).  Want an apology?  Admit that your character is overpowered not because of the rule system he uses (half of the time) but because *you made him that way*.  And because your group wants him that way.  And because you're using non-core material.

So go back and reply to the facts presented in my post.  Go back and refute the fact that you're not actually playing a XPH Psion.  Refute the fact that your character is overpowered _because everyone wants him to be that way_.  Refute the fact that this whole problem stems from your character choices.  Then I will stop being so blunt.  Until then, it seems as if though you're not listening, and that is not only insulting, but infuriating as well.


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 14, 2006)

takasi said:
			
		

> That's true.  So far it hasn't really been a problem though has it?




That is true.


----------



## KuKu (Aug 14, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> All the energy powers.  They each can utilize 4 types of energy at manifestation.  A wizard or sorcerer would have to have 4 feats of energy substitution to be used with all of there damage spells to be able to match this.
> 
> Energy Adaptation, this protects against the equivalent of 5 second level spells or manifestations.  There is no equivalent that I have found in spellcasters.  Allow only one energy type at start but give an additional augment for each 2 PP spent, it can protect against an additional energy type upto the 5 that this protects against.  This would be a maximum of 15 PP at 15th level.
> 
> ...




You have listed a few, but that does not a general trend make. For the first, arcane guys are much better at force damage which bypasses all energy resistances and typically does not give a save. Magic missile is first level, does a good amount of damage, and it doesnt allow for a save or a to hit roll. Shadow evocation though can do all five energy types of damage and can emulate a huge number of different spells. This means I have just named several spells which could invalidate the general tendency that you are saying, if we are looking in a vacuum. Specified Energy adaption is the power you want to compare the level two spell to as it is the most comparable, and they compare rather well. The tradeoff is that one is personal only while the other can, with extra resources, be made into an immediate action. So those are very close, no clear advantage all of the time. There are other unique effects, or earlier or later, on both sides, some are simply better at it than others. That is why a systemic comparison needs to be made across the board otherwise the comparisons are lost and people will make many claims about tendencies which may or may not actually be present. We could go back and forth with examples and never get anywhere until they were compiled in a single source that was easily viewed with the details people could agree upon. Does this sound beneficial?


----------



## NilesB (Aug 14, 2006)

FrostedMini1337 said:
			
		

> Crystal Shard, if you ask me, is actually one of the most powerful powers in the game.
> 
> Touch Attacks are never hard to make, it gives no spell resistance, and that liches immunity to mind effecting won't matter when the crystal flies through his chest.  Hell you can weapon focus the ray for that matter.



Liches dont have spell/power resistance. They do on the other hand have damage resistance that applies against the piercing type damage a Crystal shard does.


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 14, 2006)

Tikiman said:
			
		

> You appear to want to ignore the parts of this discussion that don't agree with you.  The first time I tried to politely point out what the problem was (and it turned out to be the actual problem) you just ignored me.  I smacked you around a little bit and *poof* you finally found out what the actual problem was (and then promptly proceeded to ignore it).  If you don't want to get 'attacked', try listening when people are being polite.
> 
> And you're STILL dancing around the fact that your character is overpowered because *you made him that way*.  You ignoring us is highly disrespectful (and 'us' includes your DM and group members).  Want an apology?  Admit that your character is overpowered not because of the rule system he uses (half of the time) but because *you made him that way*.  And because your group wants him that way.  And because you're using non-core material.
> 
> So go back and reply to the facts presented in my post.  Go back and refute the fact that you're not actually playing a XPH Psion.  Refute the fact that your character is overpowered _because everyone wants him to be that way_.  Refute the fact that this whole problem stems from your character choices.  Then I will stop being so blunt.  Until then, it seems as if though you're not listening, and that is not only insulting, but infuriating as well.




I sit and make a character every level for replacement who is a straight Psion every level in case the DM does kills the character.  The character would be 90% or the current character with 4 additional feats that the current character doesn't have of replacments of practiced spellcaster/manifester.

You say "So go back and reply to the facts presented in my post.  Go back and refute the fact that you're not actually playing a XPH Psion.  Refute the fact that your character is overpowered _because everyone wants him to be that way_.  Refute the fact that this whole problem stems from your character choices.  Then I will stop being so blunt.  Until then, it seems as if though you're not listening, and that is not only insulting, but infuriating as well", you ignore the facts presented when I started this post.  That there are problems of imbalance with psionics.  Yes I did state that my character was built effectively and in my campaign see the problem just from the psionics end since the wizard class is used to support the Psion Class.

Over 40 posts ago I did agree with the argument that my character with regard to the other characters was broken.  So again, need I constantly go back to my character or can we discuss the problem that psionics has some problems that need to be addressed.  

You especially owe Thanee an apology and I think that you owe me one as well.  By my not discussing what you want here, I'm inviting your right to be blunt and rude.  I started this thread as "Why Psionics is broken and what to do to fix it", not about my character.  The only reason to show my character, was to stop the arguments that my character or opinions were not based on the rules from non-sanctioned d20 books.

I have listened to you and the other posters on this list and backed off of my dice limit caps based on power level.  This is supposed to be a discussion and all I seem to be getting are rants.

Now I am redirecting the conversation back to the discussion about what I had originally started.  If you feel the need to be rude, please refrain from posting.  I don't insult you or make this personal but you seem to feel that it is your right to do so.  Another instance of rude behavior and I will report your actions as they are uncalled for.


----------



## IcyCool (Aug 14, 2006)

Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> Not to criticize the GM, or the game




No offence taken.  I was the GM in that game.  I apologize if I'm fuzzy on the details, it has been a while.  For reference, I'm not currently running a game, but I'd allow psionics in if I ran another one.  I'd just make it clear that I'd be keeping a careful eye on the character, and would work with the player to adjust it if the power was out of whack.



			
				Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> But boy, if that Dragon had been even a wee bit paranoid and had a MGoI up...  actually, I imagine she would have swtiched  MOs, picked up her teammate in her accelerated time frame, and run like heck.




Plenty paranoid, just no MGoI.  And if he had one up, the MO would probably have been to either run, or get the wizard (who was hiding behind a wall of force trying to decide what to do) to dispel it.  It's been a while, but I seem to recall that an old red isn't much of a spellcaster, what's their caster level/max spell level known?  I think I actually statted out his spells and didn't include that one.  I'll hunt around and see if I can find what I put on his spell list.



			
				Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> -stops and thinks-  I think there may be some errata on the Anticipatory Strike




I hope so.


----------



## IcyCool (Aug 14, 2006)

Slaved said:
			
		

> I was sent over from a different site to take a look at this and I am very curious about it.




Ask away.  I'll answer as best as I can remember.



			
				Slaved said:
			
		

> How did the character actually kill the beast? Protection from energy would give 120 points of protection, the beast has spell resistance, a touch attack had to be made, and it had rather a lot of hit points to begin with.




Pretty much exclusively with Energy Ray (cold), as far as what damaged him.  He was gimped in that he was in a location where he could not take to the air for a few rounds, which limited his mobility.  The wilder and the wizard both won the initiative (not hard for them to do).  I think we were using Eberron actions points.



			
				Slaved said:
			
		

> Did the wilder make its save vs fear?




Yes.



			
				Slaved said:
			
		

> It takes a round to put up schism, then it couldnt help much with the battle between spell resistance and a lack of fingers which prevents it from using energy ray.




Well, it takes a round to put up Temporal Acceleration, and then Schism is pretty easy to throw down.



			
				Slaved said:
			
		

> With the wilder pumping out an energy ray every round, if it knew the beasts weakness which is not assured, could do 18d8+18*1.5(weakness)*0.95(misschance)*0.75(SR)=86.56875 which means it would've taken an average of 5.753 rounds to kill off the dragon. This gives a 20% chance each time of enervating as well which would end the wilders next turn.




The wilder enervated once, during a Temporal Acceleration (so it pretty much didn't make a difference).  She never missed (pretty hard to do with a 5% chance to miss), and she succeeded in defeating the dragon's spell resistence every time with her main blast, and several of the Schism blasts (I think action points were spent on these).  The wilder rolled well on damage.  Not overwhelming, but certainly above average.



			
				Slaved said:
			
		

> During any one round without massive defenses the wilder dies to either the breath weapon (16d10, average 88, DC 31, the wilder would need at least a 16 con to survive a single failed save on average) or a single round of attacks (average damage if all hit is 93).




The wilder was never in a position to be hit by the breath weapon, due to Anticipatory Strike.



			
				Slaved said:
			
		

> It would seem that more information is required. Just going by the information given so far it would seem to be impossible for the wilder to have won, or even done anything effective.




The wilder repeatedly proved herself to be the most "effective" member of the party in all encounters except for the final one, where she stood around under timeless body.



			
				Slaved said:
			
		

> Please do not take this as an attack. We are all trying to understand balance here I hope and this situation bears some looking in to.




No problem.  I will freely admit that it is entirely possible that this was a fluke (although previous performances in the game showed me that she spent a great deal of her time holding back), or that I am a poor gm.

The main thing that jumps out at me with psionics are the things they can do either way better, or way earlier than their arcane equivalents.


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 14, 2006)

KuKu said:
			
		

> What happened to this plan? This sounds great! Verifiable points which can be debated rationally instead of a few posters less than helpful "it is just better because I say so". In my experience psionics is hands-down more balanced than the very unbalanced vancian system. The vancian system is just a mess. I think that arguements should be made based on these two posters suggestions though as they make for a much much much much much better structure.




Im not sure.. lack of interest?
Part of the problem is that we can see the end from here... no matter what characters are built or put forward, and no matter what paradigm is used to test it, the outcome is too easily decried by those whose assumptions it upsets.  By me, by someone else, by anyone, I got to thinking about it and realized that the supporters of the falsified hypothesis could too easily question the outcome.. suggesting different builds, slightly different assumptions, etc.

In addition, the primary advocate of 'Psionics is Broken', who I had hoped to encourage into a more rigorous methodology, has shown no interest in it.


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 14, 2006)

KuKu said:
			
		

> You have listed a few, but that does not a general trend make. For the first, arcane guys are much better at force damage which bypasses all energy resistances and typically does not give a save. Magic missile is first level, does a good amount of damage, and it doesnt allow for a save or a to hit roll. Shadow evocation though can do all five energy types of damage and can emulate a huge number of different spells. This means I have just named several spells which could invalidate the general tendency that you are saying, if we are looking in a vacuum. Specified Energy adaption is the power you want to compare the level two spell to as it is the most comparable, and they compare rather well. The tradeoff is that one is personal only while the other can, with extra resources, be made into an immediate action. So those are very close, no clear advantage all of the time. There are other unique effects, or earlier or later, on both sides, some are simply better at it than others. That is why a systemic comparison needs to be made across the board otherwise the comparisons are lost and people will make many claims about tendencies which may or may not actually be present. We could go back and forth with examples and never get anywhere until they were compiled in a single source that was easily viewed with the details people could agree upon. Does this sound beneficial?




The mages Force effects are not item of discussion and does not follow with what you asked.  Wizards, Clerics, Sorcerers, ect. have access to more types of energy such as positive, negative, shadow and so on.  

Shadow evocation gives a full or 1/5 damage.  It is one spell unlike every energy power that the psion has.  

So, with having the ability to have any of the 4 types of damage (fire, cold, electricity and sonic) is balance by the lack of the other types of damage being absent?

The 2nd level Energy Adaptation, specified is equivalent to its counterpart 2nd level energy resistance.  To get all 5 types you would have to manifest this power 5 different times.  Energy Adaptation 4th is in the long run more powerful than the 3rd level Protection from Energy.  A 15th level caster/manifester in comparison.  In any long protracted battle, 30 points written off every type of the 5 types damage is worth more than 180 points of one damage type.  Granted that if you fail your save, you will get more miliege out of the 3rd level spell.


----------



## IcyCool (Aug 14, 2006)

Tikiman said:
			
		

> The thing to remember is that it doesn't grant you any extra actions, so if you use it in the 1st round to go twice, you don't get an action in the 2nd round, and can't use any immediate actions until the 3rd round.




Yes, it can basically let you take two actions in the same round (at the cost of giving up your action in the next round).  With Schism up, that's four actions in a single round (albeit two of them at reduced caster level).


----------



## Slaved (Aug 14, 2006)

IcyCool said:
			
		

> Ask away.  I'll answer as best as I can remember.




Great!



			
				IcyCool said:
			
		

> Pretty much exclusively with Energy Ray (cold), as far as what damaged him.  He was gimped in that he was in a location where he could not take to the air for a few rounds, which limited his mobility.  The wilder and the wizard both won the initiative (not hard for them to do).  I think we were using Eberron actions points.




This is pretty important information.

It looks that there were mitigating circumstances that made the dragon not quite as rough as he could have been. Unable to attack effectively and the opposition using action points, which can do a number of impressive things at this level.



			
				IcyCool said:
			
		

> Yes.




Impressive. DC 29 vs a 14th level wilder likely has 9 base, 1 or 2 from wisdom, and likely 3 from a cloak of resistance would give about a +14 which means 70% chance of failure, unless an action point is used which could boost the chance of success.

I am just going through the list of things to see what the overall chances are. This one alone would've changed the entire encounter for the worse for the wilder.



			
				IcyCool said:
			
		

> Well, it takes a round to put up Temporal Acceleration, and then Schism is pretty easy to throw down.




This is true. Expensive though. I am curious though, did you allow the wilder to use schism while in acceleration or not? It is specifically disallowed by the power, but it is easy to miss.



			
				IcyCool said:
			
		

> The wilder enervated once, during a Temporal Acceleration (so it pretty much didn't make a difference).




What was the wilder doing during this extra acceleration? I assume that it was not the same one that was used for schism.



			
				IcyCool said:
			
		

> She never missed (pretty hard to do with a 5% chance to miss), and she succeeded in defeating the dragon's spell resistence every time with her main blast, and several of the Schism blasts (I think action points were spent on these).  The wilder rolled well on damage.  Not overwhelming, but certainly above average.




Yeah, missing that touch attack would be difficult! I probably didnt need to put it into the equation earlier.

Defeating the SR each blast is decently impressive though. It may be only 25% for the main blasts while fully surged but it had to be quite a few blasts in a row.

Schism cant blast with energy ray though, it doesnt have any fingers. This isnt that big of a deal though, so we'll move on.




			
				IcyCool said:
			
		

> The wilder was never in a position to be hit by the breath weapon, due to Anticipatory Strike.




How is this possible though? Anticipatory strike does not give you extra actions, it merely allows you to use next rounds actions now instead of then.

It would allow the wilder to get some actions faster one time but after that it would skip its next turn and then have to wait until its next turn after that popped up or it manifested the power again to use the following action early.

The dragon would have a move of 40' and a cone of fire that goes 60'.

I am guessing that this was just a misreading of the power, which happens, but isnt exclusive to powers.



			
				IcyCool said:
			
		

> The wilder repeatedly proved herself to be the most "effective" member of the party in all encounters except for the final one, where she stood around under timeless body.




Good! It sucks to have a useless character or a specialist whose specialty never comes up.



			
				IcyCool said:
			
		

> No problem.  I will freely admit that it is entirely possible that this was a fluke (although previous performances in the game showed me that she spent a great deal of her time holding back), or that I am a poor gm.




It certainly looks like the pc's had the deck stacked in their favor and there were a few potential misreadings which are always unfortunate while the enemy was incredibly overpowered.

If the wilder had failed the save vs fear they would have had to flee, if the dragon had gotten in a breath weapon or full attack they would have died, if the wilder had not known what the dragon weakness was because of an insufficient skill check or the dragon disguising its color they would have been forced to flee, and it sounds like if they had not been using action points they would have been a great deal worse off as well.

Was it an exciting encounter though? it sounds like it. Are they still talking about it? If so it was a success no matter what else might've happened.



			
				IcyCool said:
			
		

> The main thing that jumps out at me with psionics are the things they can do either way better, or way earlier than their arcane equivalents.




Yeah. When you play one though you see all of the things that other casters do that you cannot. In the last game I was in I envied haste so very, very much. Full party buff, incredible effects, especially when the cleric popped up a prayer as well.


----------



## Slaved (Aug 14, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> The mages Force effects are not item of discussion and does not follow with what you asked.  Wizards, Clerics, Sorcerers, ect. have access to more types of energy such as positive, negative, shadow and so on.




I think that follows with his/her point though.

Psions can use 4 energy types fairly easily, easier than anyone else. The other casters get things like force, positive, negative, or whatever and are able to use those much easier.

Which is better? fire/cold/electricity/sonic at whim or simply force? I would say most of the time, possibly the vast majority of the time, force is better.

Do you disagree? If so, why?



			
				wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> The 2nd level Energy Adaptation, specified is equivalent to its counterpart 2nd level energy resistance.  To get all 5 types you would have to manifest this power 5 different times.  Energy Adaptation 4th is in the long run more powerful than the 3rd level Protection from Energy.  A 15th level caster/manifester in comparison.  In any long protracted battle, 30 points written off every type of the 5 types damage is worth more than 180 points of one damage type.  Granted that if you fail your save, you will get more miliege out of the 3rd level spell.




You are saying that the 4th level ability is better than the 2nd level ability?

Duh?

There is a direct 2nd level spell comparison to the 2nd level power. Bringing up the higher level version which has no corallary that I know of so it would be listed as unique. Although there is a mass version of resist energy in complete arcane so the whole party could get resistance to one type so I suppose one could compare it with that, sortof.


----------



## IcyCool (Aug 15, 2006)

Slaved said:
			
		

> It looks that there were mitigating circumstances that made the dragon not quite as rough as he could have been. Unable to attack effectively and the opposition using action points, which can do a number of impressive things at this level.




It could still attack effectively, it just couldn't (at the time) fly (which is a useful dragon tactic).  That is important.



			
				Slaved said:
			
		

> Impressive. DC 29 vs a 14th level wilder likely has 9 base, 1 or 2 from wisdom, and likely 3 from a cloak of resistance would give about a +14 which means 70% chance of failure, unless an action point is used which could boost the chance of success.




She didn't have a magic weapon (or any weapon), so all of her money went into other items.  I'm fairly sure she had a +4 or +5 resistance cloak at that point.  The Celestial Mystic had a Lantern Archon familiar (which grants a protection from evil effect in a radius, right?).  All told, I think the odds were closer to 40-50% failure.



			
				Slaved said:
			
		

> I am just going through the list of things to see what the overall chances are.




No problem, I've likely forgotten a few things that your questions will bring up.



			
				Slaved said:
			
		

> This is true. Expensive though. I am curious though, did you allow the wilder to use schism while in acceleration or not? It is specifically disallowed by the power, but it is easy to miss.




No, Schism was brought up under TA, but no Schism action was used under TA.



			
				Slaved said:
			
		

> What was the wilder doing during this extra acceleration? I assume that it was not the same one that was used for schism.




She used it often in the fight to maneuver into hiding or beyond range/reach.



			
				Slaved said:
			
		

> Defeating the SR each blast is decently impressive though. It may be only 25% for the main blasts while fully surged but it had to be quite a few blasts in a row.




I'm thinking there must have been a critical in there somewhere.  I know the warlock got a couple in the campaign.



			
				Slaved said:
			
		

> Schism cant blast with energy ray though, it doesnt have any fingers. This isnt that big of a deal though, so we'll move on.




I will double check the power, but where do you get that you can't use it with Schism?



			
				Slaved said:
			
		

> How is this possible though? Anticipatory strike does not give you extra actions, it merely allows you to use next rounds actions now instead of then.




Which is essentially the same thing, if you are inaccessible for the next round.  I'll see if I can dig up the Wilder's character sheet (we ended at 18th I think) and talk with the player to see if we can remember exactly what happened.



			
				Slaved said:
			
		

> Good! It sucks to have a useless character or a specialist whose specialty never comes up.




It also sucks to have a character who is overshadowed by the psionic character all the time.  However, I think almost everyone got a chance to shine.  (The Bard taking out an eldritch giant with Otto's and Grease was one of my favorites).



			
				Slaved said:
			
		

> It certainly looks like the pc's had the deck stacked in their favor and there were a few potential misreadings which are always unfortunate while the enemy was incredibly overpowered.




I don't think there were any misreadings, but the PC's did get a slightly favorable meeting place.



			
				Slaved said:
			
		

> If the wilder had failed the save vs fear they would have had to flee, if the dragon had gotten in a breath weapon or full attack they would have died, if the wilder had not known what the dragon weakness was because of an insufficient skill check or the dragon disguising its color they would have been forced to flee, and it sounds like if they had not been using action points they would have been a great deal worse off as well.




Agreed on the action points and failed fear save.  I would contest the others, but that's just personal opinion either way.



			
				Slaved said:
			
		

> Was it an exciting encounter though? it sounds like it. Are they still talking about it? If so it was a success no matter what else might've happened.




It was ... anticlimactic.  The first few rounds were exciting, and then the players around the table pretty much watched in mute horror or disbelief.  The wilder's player never did it again (hence the Timeless Body tactic in the final confrontation).  The game was still fun, and there were more memorable encounters, but that one sticks in my mind and comes up whenever I hear the word "psionics".  I'm not saying they're broken, but I'm not saying they're perfectly balanced either.



			
				Slaved said:
			
		

> Yeah. When you play one though you see all of the things that other casters do that you cannot. In the last game I was in I envied haste so very, very much. Full party buff, incredible effects, especially when the cleric popped up a prayer as well.




You know, that's why you adventure with a _party_.  So the bard or wizard or sorcerer can throw Haste down on you.  In fact, the most fun the wilder player had was when she was surgically time hopping enemies and allies to prevent damage to her teammates.


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 15, 2006)

Slaved said:
			
		

> I think that follows with his/her point though.
> 
> Psions can use 4 energy types fairly easily, easier than anyone else. The other casters get things like force, positive, negative, or whatever and are able to use those much easier.
> 
> ...




Everyone else has used that I'm comparing the 2nd level when I have just been talking about the 4th level power.  That is why I compared them.  I thought them equal and had no problem.  The problem is with 4th level power.





			
				Slaved said:
			
		

> There is a direct 2nd level spell comparison to the 2nd level power. Bringing up the higher level version which has no corallary that I know of so it would be listed as unique. Although there is a mass version of resist energy in complete arcane so the whole party could get resistance to one type so I suppose one could compare it with that, sortof.




I have also compared this.  Our party uses this all the time.  The thing is that one type of energy is resisted again for the party.  We have 9 party members.  7 primary characters with 2 characters having henchman since they have paid for the leadership feat.  We fight a blue dragon and we protect against electricity.  In situations where we can face multiple energy types, due to spells memorized, we can only generally protect against one or maybe two.  The psion can give himself 30 points of protection against 5 different types of energy that the party cannot benefit.

Something in which I'm realizing is that the Psion for the most part is able to take care of himself and not worry about the rest of the party.


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 15, 2006)

That is very true.. the Psion is much, much better at buffing himself, than he is at buffing others.

Most people, however, dont consider this a strength...


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 15, 2006)

Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> That is very true.. the Psion is much, much better at buffing himself, than he is at buffing others.
> 
> Most people, however, dont consider this a strength...




But this is a strength in the survivability of the character.  Not the party as a whole.


----------



## Dwarmaj (Aug 15, 2006)

Again, *different != broken*

If you restrict the energy powers to a single energy type, are you going to give the psion more powers known? How about the Wilder or Ardent who are even more power restricted? They get so few powers that they need to be able to do more things with them.

How often do you get hit with multiple types of energy effects in a battle? If you have a dragon about to breathe on you which would you prefer to have up (resist 30 to four types or resist 120 to the one you need)?

Yes, psions do have an advantage when it comes to componants (V, S, and M). But they are also resticted in the use of metapsionics unlike they're arcane counter parts.

Now if you want to discuss things that are overpowering in psionics, great. I can think of Dampen Power, Syncronicity, Affinity Field, Bestow Power, and Astral Constructs (when used with Overchannel or Wild Surge).


----------



## Slaved (Aug 15, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> Everyone else has used that I'm comparing the 2nd level when I have just been talking about the 4th level power.  That is why I compared them.  I thought them equal and had no problem.  The problem is with 4th level power.




You are apparently comparing the 2nd level spell (which has a 2nd level power with which you have no problem) to a 4th level power. There are bound to be some issues with that.

Is greater mage armor a problem because mage armor exists? Why is a higher level version of an effect, which is also better, a problem?

A first level effect might hit a single creature for 5d6 damage. If a third level effect hits up to 20 creatures for 5d6 damage is this a problem? It is way better after all.

Higher level abilities are better than lower level ones in general when they effect the same thing.

I am not seeing the problem here. Except maybe that specified energy adaption should simply have an augment for more energies resisted at once rather than having a whole other power. 



			
				wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> Something in which I'm realizing is that the Psion for the most part is able to take care of himself and not worry about the rest of the party.




Psions generally only have self buffs. This is one of the drawbacks of the class and it is pretty hefty.


----------



## Tikiman (Aug 15, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> you ignore the facts presented when I started this post. That there are problems of imbalance with psionics.



This is not a fact, this is a highly debated opinion.  Both you and Thanee need to learn the difference between a fact and an opinion.  I have no problem with the _opinion_ that psionics are overpowered, but trying to tout it as a fact is just plain rude.

Between polls and the fact that this debate has never been resolved, I can't help but think that the general evidence suggest the psion and the wizard are in balance with each other.  Each has things they do better then the other.  

Would you agree that there are problems of imbalance with arcane magic as well?  (eg Rope Trick, Gate, Disjunction, never seeing a Wiz20, etc)



			
				wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> Over 40 posts ago I did agree with the argument that my character with regard to the other characters was broken. So again, need I constantly go back to my character or can we discuss the problem that psionics has some problems that need to be addressed.



The problem is that you can't use the fact that your character is overpowered compared to your group as evidence that all of psionics is overpowered compared to the rest of D&D (like you did in post 223, as well as elsewhere).  That's like saying 'I'm taller then my brother, so I must be taller then everyone else'.  I've got no problem with the topic as a whole, but you're using disingenuous tactics to further your argument.



			
				wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> You especially owe Thanee an apology and I think that you owe me one as well.



Funny thing, I've had several people I live with (college house) read what I posted to you, and all of them responded with 'he wants an apology...for that?'.  All of them instantly recognized that my text towards Thanee was meant as sarcastic/exasperated, not an attack.  I should have remembered it's easier to say "you're attacking me" then to actually reply to the topics in the post, and therefore posted with my kiddy-gloves on.



			
				wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> By my not discussing what you want here, I'm inviting your right to be blunt and rude.



No, by ignoring me when I (and others) were posting politely you invited me to be blunt in order to get a response.  I had to pester you about admitting your character was designed to be overpowered before I got a response about it.  I continually get the feeling that you're trying to steer the conversation in a specific direction, away from topics that weaken your position.



			
				wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> I started this thread as "Why Psionics is broken and what to do to fix it", not about my character.



But we quickly learned that your biggest beef was with your current character in your current campaign.  I have to ask (and this is something I'm going to pester you about, so please respond), is this your first psionic character?  If not, what have you previously played and how was the experience?  If you haven't, then how can you justify using your experiences in this..._unique_ situation as evidence that all of psionics should be nerfed?



			
				wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> This is supposed to be a discussion and all I seem to be getting are rants.



Welcome to the internet.  If you think I'm bad, I'd suggest getting a protection from fire item before you do much more posting.  Anonymity + humans = bad juu-juu, especially given that nobody seems to recognize sarcasm for what it is and instead takes it as a personal attack.

And I have made several suggestion of how psionics could very well be overpowered, especially at your gaming table.  The total list of potential problem areas, from what topics have been raised here, include non-XPH psionic material (anything non-core/campaign is broken by default), extra action powers (Temporal Acceleration, Schism, Anticipatory Strike, Synchronicity, etc), and the Cerebremancer PrC (though I've had lots of non-overpowered experience with it, it's apparently just not right for your table).  I'm not the only one who has called these things out in particular.  Despite that, you continually harp on direct damage and other things specifically called out as stuff the psion does better then the wizard (in exchange for illusions, save-or-die effects, party buffing, etc).



			
				wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> Now I am redirecting the conversation back to the discussion about what I had originally started.



I thought your original point had already been covered?  People, myself included, admitted that yeah, Temporal Acceleration can be a bit of a @#$^!, so it's a decent houserule to just get rid of it.  Same for Schism.  Almost every post about how psionics are broken revolve around those powers, and yet when people admit that those are in fact problem powers, every one of those posts somehow shifts into '4 energy types for free is broken'.  It's like how people say they won't use psionics because they are overpowered, when in fact they just don't like the flavor.  It's sneaky, devious, and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.



			
				wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> If you feel the need to be rude, please refrain from posting.



And again, I wouldn't feel the need to be rude if you wouldn't ignore things people have posted, especially when those things detract from your argument.  It sometimes feels like you haven't lost the "for those of you who don't think psionic is broken, please don't post because I agree that we disagree" attitude.



			
				wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> I don't insult you or make this personal but you seem to feel that it is your right to do so.





			
				wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> Most people here aren't seeing the problem because they are being too involved with it. I see because as a veteran gamer of almost 30 years and a 44 year old player, that playing this game isn't just about me but a bunch of friends getting together and enjoying an adventure.



This isn't an insult?  In an elitist tone you basically just told everyone that they're stupid and don't actually see what's going on, and that they don't know what playing D&D is about to boot.  And you did it again when you said "I and a few who comment see but the vast majority think that there isn't a problem."  Again you imply that your opinion is correct and there must be a problem, and anyone that doesn't agree simply doesn't know what they're talking about.

Have you ever possibly considered that there isn't a problem with psionics, but simply a problem with how you play them in your 'less then optimal' groups?  Have you ever had similar problems with other caster classes?  I'm dying to know just how much experience you've had with psionics in general.

I'm not trying to say that psionics is a perfect system and doesn't have it's broken areas.  But I will adamantly support the idea that it has fewer problems then arcane magic.  Every aspect of D&D has the potential to be broken in the hands of a 'powergamer' such as yourself.  It's up to the players, and the DM, to make sure they all agree on a general power level and build there characters accordingly.  Your character broke the power level of the group he was in, and in response you tried to blame 1/2 of your character's abilities.  It's like you want to use psionics as a scapegoat so you don't have to admit to being a 'powergamer'.


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 15, 2006)

I am a power gamer.  I'm not unabashed about that.  My style will take things to an extreme so that the rules will be tested.

I don't attack you personally.  You, on the other hand under the guise of sarcasm attack Thanee.  Yes, I have a jaded opinion since I have played all the editions of psionics.  I admit that the system currently used is the best that TSR/Wotc has put out.  That doesn't mean that there aren't problems.  This is what I'm talking about.  You state that my opinion is invalid since I have not played a straight psion.

I have a degree in Logic.  Convince me of your argument, not your brow beating.

I have moved my opinion away from the dice limits.  Someone presented me with a valid line of reasoning.  You state that just that the opinions of other gamers must be right and I must be wrong.  Give me logical reasons and I'm receptive.  Attack me and no amount of convincing with that will change my mind.

In the last 6 months, during a typical session in which we have 2-4 encounters, my character typically uses maybe 4 spells.  The Psion part is what is used for 95% of the combat.  The last 2 sessions have been the endurance test.

The Psion part is 3 levels less than the party.  This part alone keeps up with the party.  Practiced Manifester was not added until 15th level.

You can apologize or not.  Rude, sarcastic and blunt behavior will get nowhere with me.


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 15, 2006)

Here's something about the Sorcerer that most are leaving out.  If a sorcerer uses a metamagic feat, it increases the time.  From one action to full round and so on.  Even heightened feat will make the spell a longer casting time.  Expending your psionic focus is a paltry cost compared to this penalty.


----------



## Zimbel16 (Aug 15, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> Here's something about the Sorcerer that most are leaving out.  If a sorcerer uses a metamagic feat, it increases the time.  From one action to full round and so on.  Expending your psionic focus is a paltry cost compared to this penalty.



I disagree; when I played a Sorcerer, I found that the only significant issue with the full-round action was that I couldn't use metamagic with hasted actions (3.0). Since they removed this issue from Haste in 3.5, I doubt it is much of an issue any more.

Frankly, because of the long ranges of many of the sorcerer's more common spells, movement isn't going to likely be an issue, save in combats with lots of obstacles on the field. I'll note that at high levels, my character's typical response to such obstacles was to remove them (typically via repeated uses of disintegrate).


----------



## Tsuul (Aug 15, 2006)

Expending your focus is a small penalty compared to increasing your casting time for the round you use it in, but you still have to give an action to get it back; thats a full round if you don't have the feat. Also, expending your focus has the other negative that you can't use multiple metapsionics without two more feats. Even with the feats, a sorcerer can stack on 3-8 (or more in epic) more metamagics. Then there are those rods that casters just love. But I wouldn't be surprised to see psionic versions of them pop up in a book at some point.

That's 3 feats just to keep up and under certain circumstances pass the sorcerer.
Usualy passing means that the psion can move once then cast, with each following round standing still to refocus and then cast. The sorcerer is down one movement.


----------



## Zimbel16 (Aug 15, 2006)

Slaved said:
			
		

> You are apparently comparing the 2nd level spell (which has a 2nd level power with which you have no problem) to a 4th level power. There are bound to be some issues with that.



A few ways to compare them:
1) spell slots required in AE (which does cross-conversions): 1 LV4 spell slot = 4 LV 2 spell slots. Of course, this presumes the time to use those spell slots.
2) Assume that one normally dosen't have these cast before combat. Then, the real cost is in actions, so to get up all 5 energy resistances, one might expend:
3 2nd level slots
2 6th level (quickened slots)

over 3 rounds. which means that you're using 2 fewer other standard actions in comparison with someone using Energy Adaptation.
3) Same assumption as #2:
1 9th level slot (time stop), with maximize or empower rod used
2) 5 2nd level slots.

So, from the above, Energy Adaptation does not look extremely strong in comparison to Resist Energy if both can be cast in advance of the combat. It does look extremely strong if it can't (particularly since Energy Adaptation can also be quickened on the cheap).

Personally, I'm more concerned with the amount of resistance than the plethora of types;  I'd remove the text: "The energy resistance provided by this power increases to 20 points at 9th manifester level and to a maximum of 30 points at 13th level.", and add the augment:
"If you spend 5 additional power points, the energy resistance provided by this power increases to 20 points. If you spend 10 additional power points, the energy resistance provided by this power increases to 30 points."


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 15, 2006)

Zimbel16 said:
			
		

> A few ways to compare them:
> 1) spell slots required in AE (which does cross-conversions): 1 LV4 spell slot = 4 LV 2 spell slots. Of course, this presumes the time to use those spell slots.
> 2) Assume that one normally dosen't have these cast before combat. Then, the real cost is in actions, so to get up all 5 energy resistances, one might expend:
> 3 2nd level slots
> ...




Now here's a reply with a solution.  Unfortunately here's the problem with this suggestion.  to increase to 20 points would cost 12 PP meaning that you would have to be a 12th level manifester to augment and you would have to be a 17th level manifester to augment further and a 21st level manifester to augment to its fullest as a quickened action.  I think that this may be a solution.  Thanks


----------



## Tikiman (Aug 15, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> I am a power gamer. I'm not unabashed about that. My style will take things to an extreme so that the rules will be tested.



Then I'd like to submit the idea that whatever you play, no matter what rules it uses, it will look overpowered in comparison to the rest of your party (who are not powergaming).  When you play other casters with this group and powergame them, do they appear overpowered?  Have you ever tried playing a Cleric or Druid around them?



			
				wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> I don't attack you personally. You, on the other hand under the guise of sarcasm attack Thanee.



And I did not attack you personally either.  I 'attacked' your DM, and later apologized.  I asked you a series of direct questions, your response to which was to ignore the facts presented and instead take offense at them.  If I want to attack you, I'll do it in a fashion that will surely get me banned.  Until then assume that I'm just being sarcastic.  If you don't want me to be sarcastic, say so and I'll give it a try (no promises though).

And, as I stated, my comment to Thanee was a sarcastic/exasperated remark.  All logical evidence presented to her was ignored because "all evidence is faulty".  Then I presented a poll of anecdotal evidence which was also ignored (for more fuzzy reasons).  People who post opinions as fact and then ignore evidence are called trolls.  I don't think that's what Thanee intended, but my remark did have a little bite to it because of this.  As I stated, several of my house mates read what I posted and realized it was a sarcastic remark.  If you still won't believe that then, well, I guess we've just got different definitions of 'attack'.



			
				wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> I admit that the system currently used is the best that TSR/Wotc has put out. That doesn't mean that there aren't problems. This is what I'm talking about.



And I will admit that the psionic system also has it's problems (as I've stated several times, Temporal Acceleration).  However, arcane and divine magic, heck, the D&D system as a whole has problems.  But some people like playing with these problems, and actually derive joy from them.  Even if you do 'fix' the psionics system, it won't do you any good.  You will still have to custom tailor the power level of your character to fit the power level of your group.  All you've really accomplished is adding another layer of house-rules that have to be remembered.  So why bother 'fixing' the system when it all comes down to a table specific agreement on power level anyways?



			
				wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> You state that my opinion is invalid since I have not played a straight psion.  I have a degree in Logic. Convince me of your argument, not your brow beating.



OK, how about this piece of logic.  Lets say you want to buy a new car, and you're trying to choose between a Zorp or a Dweedle.  You're currently at the Zorp deeler and the janitor walks up to you.  He has 0 experience with cars.  However, he works for the Zorp dealership and tells you an angry story about how a his friends once ran over his foot with a Dweedle (they all thought it was fun).  Therefore he can tell you for a fact that all Dweedles are bad cars and you should buy a Zorp.  Would it be logical to listen to him?  Of course not.  He has a bias towards Zorps, a personal problem with Dweedles, and absolutely no relevant knowledge on the subject.

This is the situation you are in.  You have 0 experience with 3.5 psionics except for a character that your group wants to be overpowered.  You have stated yourself that you built him to 'test the limits' while your party uses more casual builds.  You have a self-admitted anti-psi bias.  You have every reason to not like psionics, and yet you have no credible evidence with them.  Until you have playtested the system more, especially just XPH without overpowered non-core material, you don't have any credentials for passing judgment on the system.  Does it look overpowered compared to arcane in some areas?  Yes.  So does divine.  And there are things that a Psion is incapable of doing that the wizard excels at.  As has been beaten into your brow by others, different does not equal overpowered.



			
				wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> You state that just that the opinions of other gamers must be right and I must be wrong. Give me logical reasons and I'm receptive.



The opinions of hundreds of other gamers, tested with both mathematical and anecdotal evidence, has more credibility then the opinion of one person who has little-to-no experience with the system in question, especially if that single person has a bias.  What you are doing is the equivalent of walking into a hospital where all of the doctors recommend Tylenol and demanding that Advil is in fact a better medicine because you took Tylenol one time and it gave you an upset stomach.  And to top it all off, much of the evidence you have presented has been countered, and sometimes proven flat wrong, by multitudes of other people on this thread.  I can also inform you that the arguments you have presented have been handled in much the same fashion dozens of times on the Psionics forum.



			
				wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> In the last 6 months, during a typical session in which we have 2-4 encounters, my character typically uses maybe 4 spells. The Psion part is what is used for 95% of the combat. The last 2 sessions have been the endurance test.



Possibly the reason why I appear to be browbeating you is because you continually raise the same points again and again without acknowledging what I have previously said about them.  You cannot use your character as an example of psionics in general being overpowered because in your case your character is simply more powerful then your fellow group members.  Imagine if your group was a baseball team.  Everyone else plays some in their free time, but they never really train for the game.  On the other hand, you love baseball and try to be the best that you can be, right down to buying 'how to be a pro' books.  In addition to that, when you go up to bat your team insists that you use an aluminum bat.  Would you consider the comparison between your score and anyone else's to be a logical comparison?  Wouldn't a true test require you to not only put away the aluminum bat, but also play with people who are trying to be as good at the game as you are?  This is why I suggest that you play a regular psionic character on par with the power level of your group before you start trying to 'fix' the system.

I'm not saying you _can't_ fix the system; what I am saying is that you are currently far to inexperienced with the system to make an educated objective assesment of it.

I'd like to know, do you consider the arcane/divine casting system in need of 'fixing' as well?  Do you implement changes X, Y, and Z to bring them into balance with the rest of the game?  If not, aren't you holding psionics up to a double standard?  If you do believe/do these things, then please say so, as that radically changes the discussion.  You would no longer be 'fixing' the psionics system, you would be 'fixing' casters in general, and lots of people agree with that sentiment (myself included).

And if you won't listen to me, will you listen to your own DM.  Specifically when he says things like:


			
				takasi said:
			
		

> Jaden actually doesn't do that much damage and I don't complain about his abilities often





			
				takasi said:
			
		

> Really, it isn't that bad, I think the OP can be a worry wart sometimes. I think the biggest problem is that the other 2 DMs don't like the flavor (rather than the mechanics) of psionics and no amount of balancing is going to convince them otherwise.





			
				takasi said:
			
		

> What's being said is more important than who is saying it.





			
				takasi said:
			
		

> I've already posted a few things that strike me as an advantage for the psion, but I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say the class is broken.


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 15, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> Now here's a reply with a solution.  Unfortunately here's the problem with this suggestion.  to increase to 20 points would cost 12 PP meaning that you would have to be a 12th level manifester to augment and you would have to be a 17th level manifester to augment further and a 21st level manifester to augment to its fullest as a quickened action.  I think that this may be a solution.  Thanks




Hmm... would be interesting.  I suppose the people who like that style of defensive magics would still get the power, and the people who dont (myself, among others) would still not take the power...


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 15, 2006)

Tikiman said:
			
		

> Then I'd like to submit the idea that whatever you play, no matter what rules it uses, it will look overpowered in comparison to the rest of your party (who are not powergaming).  When you play other casters with this group and powergame them, do they appear overpowered?  Have you ever tried playing a Cleric or Druid around them?
> 
> 
> And I did not attack you personally either.  I 'attacked' your DM, and later apologized.  I asked you a series of direct questions, your response to which was to ignore the facts presented and instead take offense at them.  If I want to attack you, I'll do it in a fashion that will surely get me banned.  Until then assume that I'm just being sarcastic.  If you don't want me to be sarcastic, say so and I'll give it a try (no promises though).
> ...




You don't want to fix the system, just brow beat since in your opinion of my experience has no validity.  Even though I've suggested reasonable fixes.  I find that.....



			
				Tikiman said:
			
		

> Possibly the reason why I appear to be browbeating you is because you continually raise the same points again and again without acknowledging what I have previously said about them.  You cannot use your character as an example of psionics in general being overpowered because in your case your character is simply more powerful then your fellow group members.  Imagine if your group was a baseball team.  Everyone else plays some in their free time, but they never really train for the game.  On the other hand, you love baseball and try to be the best that you can be, right down to buying 'how to be a pro' books.  In addition to that, when you go up to bat your team insists that you use an aluminum bat.  Would you consider the comparison between your score and anyone else's to be a logical comparison?  Wouldn't a true test require you to not only put away the aluminum bat, but also play with people who are trying to be as good at the game as you are?  This is why I suggest that you play a regular psionic character on par with the power level of your group before you start trying to 'fix' the system.
> 
> I'm not saying you _can't_ fix the system; what I am saying is that you are currently far to inexperienced with the system to make an educated objective assesment of it.




Okay, so know historian can really have an opinion since they did not experience it themselves.  That will destroy the entire academic community.  I can look at the numbers, use the part of that I have observed.  I can make conclusions based the evidence I have.  Again, you appear to have ignored me.  I make a straight psion every level to replace the character if he is killed.  This character from paper looks more broken than Jaden.  I guess that a nuclear bomb prediction that it would set off the atmosphere during the Manhattan Project never came to happen.


----------



## Vurt (Aug 15, 2006)

Can we please stop with the personal sniping?  Debate the arguement, not its poster.

If the problem is seen to be the psion class, and not psionics in general (which seems to be a reasonable enough position if neither the psychic warrior nor the wilder, who both make heavy use of the psionic power system, draw such contested debating), then would any of the following simple ideas help?

Option 1) Decouple save DC increases from damage increases.  Pay for each separately.  This also tones down the wilder somewhat.

Option 2) Psions receive 25% less power points per level.  Scale the number to whatever is appropriate for your game.  This is to encourage psions to be somewhat more conservative with their augments.

Option 3) Psions get even less powers known.  They alternate getting either 2 or 1 new power per level from the very start.

Cheers,
Vurt


----------



## Dwarmaj (Aug 15, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> Now here's a reply with a solution.  Unfortunately here's the problem with this suggestion.  to increase to 20 points would cost 12 PP meaning that you would have to be a 12th level manifester to augment and you would have to be a 17th level manifester to augment further and a 21st level manifester to augment to its fullest as a quickened action.  I think that this may be a solution.  Thanks




You're kidding right.  

You're saying that resist 30 to Fire/Cold/Electric/Sonic is equal to a 9th level power/spell? Did you know that there's an arcane/divine version that grants total immunity to a specified energy type? I believe Energy Immunity is a 6th level spell. There's also a 9th level spell that makes you immune to all energy types.

How is resist 30 to 4 types equal to total immunity to all energy types?


----------



## Tikiman (Aug 15, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> You don't want to fix the system, just brow beat since in your opinion of my experience has no validity. Even though I've suggested reasonable fixes. I find that.....



Oh contraire.  I have a houserule that where Temporal Acceleration costs 10xp per round you gain.  And any material from a non-core book (even campaign books) is assumed to be broken until proven otherwise.  I'll gladly go over this material if someone wants it, but it may very well end up deformed and much less potent before it makes it to the gaming table.  The important point is that I played with the system as is for a year before I decided to make any changes.  And when I did decide to make changes, I researched what others had experienced to determine if there was an actual problem with the system or if it was just a table specific 'this doesn't work so well in your campaign' thing.

Valid: "assertions, arguments, conclusions, reasons, or intellectual processes that are persuasive because they are well founded. What is valid is based on or borne out by truth or fact."  By the definition of valid your opinion has little validity.  It is not based on well founded fact, it is based on a single biased experience that has been proven erroneous due to your powergaming.  Many things you have stated have not 'borne out'; they have been countered/refuted.

My problem isn't with the fixes your proposing.  My problem is that you're proposing fixes to something just for sake of fixing it, not for the sake of actually solving any problems.  This is change for the sake of change.  How is what you're doing logical?



			
				wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> Okay, so know historian can really have an opinion since they did not experience it themselves. That will destroy the entire academic community.




Opinion: "A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof."  Anyone can have an opinion, but opinions do not rely on facts or evidence.  Therefore it is highly illogical to base rules and fixes on mere opinion.  Lots of people are of the opinion that D&D is the tool of the Devil.  Does that mean it should be made illegal?



			
				wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> I can look at the numbers, use the part of that I have observed.  I can make conclusions based the evidence I have.



Please explain to me how you can logically use your current experience with a non-psion, that you powergamed in a group of non-powergamers, as evidence that all of psionics is broken compared to all of magic.  I'm completely baffled as to how that works.



			
				wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> Again, you appear to have ignored me.



How.  Where.  Please quote something I haven't addressed.



			
				wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> I make a straight psion every level to replace the character if he is killed. This character from paper looks more broken than Jaden.



Overpowered compared to your underpowered group that wants you to be overpowered?  Or overpowered compared to the entirety of what is possible for an arcane caster (like the 73k damage in one round wizard build).  And is he overpowered because you just can't make a non-broken psionic character, or is he overpowered because you intentionally built him to be overpowered?

And I love the fact that you're ignoring what your own DM posted.  He says there isn't a problem.  Is his opinion invalid?


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 15, 2006)

Dwarmaj said:
			
		

> You're kidding right.
> 
> You're saying that resist 30 to Fire/Cold/Electric/Sonic is equal to a 9th level power/spell? Did you know that there's an arcane/divine version that grants total immunity to a specified energy type? I believe Energy Immunity is a 6th level spell. There's also a 9th level spell that makes you immune to all energy types.
> 
> How is resist 30 to 4 types equal to total immunity to all energy types?




Nope, I was commenting on what the poster said.  Personally I think that is is worth between a 6th to 8th level power.  I think that 7th is probably the target.

7 PP's to start, 3 additional PP's at 10th for 20 points and 13 PP's at 13th for 30 points against 5 different energy types for 10 mins/level.


----------



## takasi (Aug 15, 2006)

Tikiman said:
			
		

> Or overpowered compared to the entirety of what is possible for an arcane caster (like the 73k damage in one round wizard build).




That build is no longer possible with the polymorph errata, from what I understand.  I may be wrong, but it seems like that build is based on exploiting polymorphing into a nagahydra,  casting multiple time stops in the same round, and using circle magic from forgotten realms to create dozens of metamagic'd scorching rays.

IMO energy ray is better than even this uber combo simply because that 73K is useless against a creature that's immune to fire.  Again, the psion has the advantage of versatility as well as raw power.


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 15, 2006)

Tikiman said:
			
		

> Oh contraire.  I have a houserule that where Temporal Acceleration costs 10xp per round you gain.  And any material from a non-core book (even campaign books) is assumed to be broken until proven otherwise.  I'll gladly go over this material if someone wants it, but it may very well end up deformed and much less potent before it makes it to the gaming table.  The important point is that I played with the system as is for a year before I decided to make any changes.  And when I did decide to make changes, I researched what others had experienced to determine if there was an actual problem with the system or if it was just a table specific 'this doesn't work so well in your campaign' thing.
> 
> Valid: "assertions, arguments, conclusions, reasons, or intellectual processes that are persuasive because they are well founded. What is valid is based on or borne out by truth or fact."  By the definition of valid your opinion has little validity.  It is not based on well founded fact, it is based on a single biased experience that has been proven erroneous due to your powergaming.  Many things you have stated have not 'borne out'; they have been countered/refuted.
> 
> ...



I am not further debating you.  This is the house rules forum.  Maybe if these rules were going to be official, then your debate might hold water.  Someone else complained about the attacks.  Drop it please.  As house rules, I want a discussion, not endless arguments on who is who.


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 15, 2006)

-tags Tikiman and goes back over the rope for the last time- 

I'm out.  This will go nowhere.  There were occasional flashes of vague hope... but no.

To the OP:  Feel free to nerf until its comfortable for you.  Once youve nerfed psionics enough that an optimized Wizard/Psion hybrid is on par with a collection of generally lower level, more poorly equipped, non-optimized characters, I imagine you will be happy, as may be the GMs that you play with that currently resist using psionics.

Heck, people may even still play Psions... history proves that no matter how underpowered a class is, either mechanically or perception, some people will play it.. and others will optimize even the lowest of the low into performing well.

I do have one closing question, and this is probably approprois nothing... what is your (I refer both to the OP and to Thanee) thought on the current running debate between the Creationists and the Evolutionists?

-Scratch some of the above-

You know, this is fascinating.  I think I'll stay and play after all, on the terms as they have been outlined.

"Why Psionics is Broken, and what is needed to fix it"
Psionics suffers from an inflexible concept of power knowledge, limiting the ability of the Psion to fill the 'problem-solver' role in the party normally required of D4 classes.

This stems from a number of factors:
1.)  Feat Shortage.  Its difficult to emulate a Wizard when your down two feats right out the door. (Down three or four if you count the cost of actually USING metamagic, but... the Psion is a more casual user of metamagic than the Wizard, so this is a bonus).
1a.)  Change Psions to recieve Psycrstals and Enscribe Power Stone for free at first level, same as Scribe Scroll and Familiar.  Note that Psicrystals are better in some ways than Familiar... but OTOH, a raven is just a raven.  A rock with ectoplasmic legs skittering along the ceiling draws comment.

2.)  Any psion is by definition closed off from getting a vast majority of the basic 'wizarding options' that he needs to fill the wizard role in parties.
2a.)  Allow Psions to choose freely from other discipline lists, perhaps limit them to one level lower than their current max level knowable.

3.)  The psions need to pour PSPs into powers to keep them functional causes him to have shorter legs than the wizard.
3a.)  While I'm tempted to suggest 'free scaling' up to the common breakpoint for Psions (IE, up to 10 dice for lvl 3 powers, etc), that might be a bit much.

4.)  Psion mainstay powers, being low level, tend to fail in the presence of dispels or Globes.
4a.)  Every two PsPs spent to enhance a power should also increase its level by 1 for purposes of effects that tend to cancel or counter said power.

Im sure there are more, but thats a start.


----------



## Tikiman (Aug 15, 2006)

takasi said:
			
		

> That build is no longer possible with the polymorph errata, from what I understand.



I never follwed the polymorph errata very closely because I never use the spell (nor does it get used at my tables).  Given that the build uses shapechage, and I can't see any relevant changes in the 3.5 PHB errata, I honestly don't have a clue how the build would be affected.

However, the 2k damage as a swift action is a pure Faerun tactic that doesn't rely upon the shapechange cheese.  Searing Spell from Sandstorm eliminates the Fire Immunity worry (I think it reduces it to Resistance 30 or something like that).  A cheap metamagic rod of Energy Substitution could also let you get around this.  Without shapechange this build is still capable of taking out a couple of pit fiends as a swift action.



			
				wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> I am not further debating you. This is the house rules forum. Maybe if these rules were going to be official, then your debate might hold water. Someone else complained about the attacks. Drop it please. As house rules, I want a discussion, not endless arguments on who is who.



So we're continuing with the 'I'm going to say you're attacking me so I don't have to respond to you' line of "logic"?  Or is this reheated leftovers from the 'I don't listen to people who disagree with me' post?  I honestly don't know how anyone with a degree in logic could use such tactics though.  Well, maybe if you were a politician...(now THAT was an attack  )

Either way I still think you should just listen to your DM. 



			
				Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> -tags Tikiman and goes back over the rope for the last time-



roflmao.  This thread has been so darn amusing.  I hate to see it devolve into an anti-psi circle-jerk.  But that's what the OP wants, so oh well.



			
				Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> "Why Psionics is Broken, and what is needed to fix it"
> Psionics suffers from an inflexible concept of power knowledge, limiting the ability of the Psion to fill the 'problem-solver' role in the party normally required of D4 classes.



Ooh, this sounds fun.  But no, I'll stay out of it.  My opinion isn't worth as much as wildstarsreach's, so I guess I'll just admit that I'm a total noob who doesn't know anything about logic or balance.

Not that I won't keep tabs on this thread mind you.


----------



## takasi (Aug 15, 2006)

Tikiman said:
			
		

> I never follwed the polymorph errata very closely because I never use the spell (nor does it get used at my tables).  Given that the build uses shapechage, and I can't see any relevant changes in the 3.5 PHB errata, I honestly don't have a clue how the build would be affected.




Not sure what the shapechange is for then, as I don't see the advantage to becoming a nagahydra if you can't assume its supernatural powers.



			
				Tikiman said:
			
		

> However, the 2k damage as a swift action is a pure Faerun tactic...




Well there's your answer:  the Forgotten Realms are broken.  

Seriously though, anything that not only gives you multiple timestops but also allows you to have multiple actions within a timestop, in my opinion, provides an overwhelming advantage in the game.  This is by definition "unbalanced".  Is this the fault of "arcane magic"?  No.  Should it be included in a discussion on balancing arcane magic?  Certainly.  

I don't have the energy nor the inclination to discuss this topic.  I would love to see more intelligent and dedicated people than myself have a discussion on "balancing psionics".  The first question would be identifying what is and what isn't "balanced".  I think a few people had some very good ideas on how to set up ground rules for this type of discussion, but I think those were ignored several pages ago.


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 15, 2006)

RE:  Temporal Powers

Alot of people tend to forget that the time stop, etc. powers dont let you direct damage during them, anymore... your pretty much limited to summoning, leaving lingering effects, etc.

Mind you, that doesnt keep 'Time Effects' from being an I-win-button, but it does mitigate some of their power, and sets a slight tax on pressing the 'I win button'


----------



## Taraxia (Aug 15, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> The mages Force effects are not item of discussion and does not follow with what you asked.  Wizards, Clerics, Sorcerers, ect. have access to more types of energy such as positive, negative, shadow and so on.
> 
> Shadow evocation gives a full or 1/5 damage.  It is one spell unlike every energy power that the psion has.
> 
> So, with having the ability to have any of the 4 types of damage (fire, cold, electricity and sonic) is balance by the lack of the other types of damage being absent?




Er, yes? It is?

I mean, YES, isn't that answer obvious? That it doesn't matter nearly so much to be able to switch off between the four elemental energy damages at a whim if you can have a non-elemental energy damage that nothing resists, and that affects incorporeal creatures?

Not that damage really matters -- save-or-die is much scarier, and both wizards and clerics get better save-or-die effects than the psion.


----------



## Taraxia (Aug 15, 2006)

takasi said:
			
		

> That build is no longer possible with the polymorph errata, from what I understand.  I may be wrong, but it seems like that build is based on exploiting polymorphing into a nagahydra,  casting multiple time stops in the same round, and using circle magic from forgotten realms to create dozens of metamagic'd scorching rays.
> 
> IMO energy ray is better than even this uber combo simply because that 73K is useless against a creature that's immune to fire.  Again, the psion has the advantage of versatility as well as raw power.




The polymorph errata hasn't actually nerfed polymorph, or erased it from the game. What it has done is deleted all references to polymorph from the other rules so that polymorph *can* be erased from the game, which is clearly the direction WotC is leaning.

Although you can't use polymorph to get Supernatural Abilities anyway -- for that you need shapechange, a 9th-level spell.


----------



## Taraxia (Aug 15, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> I am a power gamer.  I'm not unabashed about that.  My style will take things to an extreme so that the rules will be tested.
> 
> I don't attack you personally.  You, on the other hand under the guise of sarcasm attack Thanee.  Yes, I have a jaded opinion since I have played all the editions of psionics.  I admit that the system currently used is the best that TSR/Wotc has put out.  That doesn't mean that there aren't problems.  This is what I'm talking about.  You state that my opinion is invalid since I have not played a straight psion.
> 
> ...




If you have a degree in "logic" (by which you mean what, a math concentration?) then you ought to know that anecdotal evidence means very little in these sorts of situations. There are way too many variables in people's subjective experience for any single person's experience saying "Psionics is broken" to mean anything on its own.

When we actually analyze the situation we see that you have a highly optimized psionic build, while the other characters have highly nerfed builds with many wasted feats and poor class synergies. The fact that your character is the most powerful therefore has *nothing* to do with what you picked and everything to do with the way it was built. Therefore *your experience* does not outweigh the *many, many, many* arguments the people on this thread have put forward in favor of psionics being balanced.

Your only arguments in this thread have been your personal experience, the fact that "DMs think psionics is unbalanced" (which, if you've taken logic, you should know is an invalid _argumentum ad populum_, your assumptions about *why* DMs ban psionics notwithstanding) and a very few other points that have mostly been addressed. ("Free" Energy Substitution? Sure, as though energy damage is what really matters to spellcasters. No material components? Oh, scary, as though spellcasters are actually scared of losing their components pouch more than they are being melee'd or grappled. Etc.)

Look, dude. I've been in a campaign where the most powerful character, by a long shot, was the *bard*. Because the bard was being played by an experienced player looking for a fun challenge while the rest of the characters were played by high-school freshman tyros.

Does the fact that this bard was regularly outdamaging my fighter or my fellow player's sorcerer mean that bards are more powerful than fighters and sorcerers? I sure hope not. Does the fact that in a very recent one-shot I played, my knight character consistently outshone my friend's cleric character, mean that knights are overpowered relative to clerics? Hell no.

You're not arguing in good faith, wildstarsreach -- you came into this thread with a highly provocative and controversial assumption, that psionics is *obviously* broken, that DMs ban it because it's broken, and it therefore needs clumsy fixes to make it more like all other forms of existing magic. You should've expected people to react badly to that assumption and had arguments to defend it that went beyond personal anecdotal experience. To do otherwise is a failing in logic.


----------



## takasi (Aug 15, 2006)

Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> RE:  Temporal Powers
> 
> Alot of people tend to forget that the time stop, etc. powers dont let you direct damage during them, anymore... your pretty much limited to summoning, leaving lingering effects, etc.
> 
> Mind you, that doesnt keep 'Time Effects' from being an I-win-button, but it does mitigate some of their power, and sets a slight tax on pressing the 'I win button'




A little off topic, but I'm starting to see this come into play in our games.  Can you still target creatures with delayed spells?

Here is the post I was referring to earlier from Nifft that was...er...nifty:

"Maybe we could see a breakdown of...

- Access to magic item creation, types of items, and resources to create "situational" items (Wizard or Cleric wins by a long shot, but Sorcerer vs. Psion could be interesting);
- Points of ability damage each caster type can do, and how often;
- Points of HP damage each caster type can do, and how often;
- Number of save-or-die effects that can be done each day, at high DC, and at moderate DC;
- Available utility effects.

What do you think of that as an objective measure?"


Which was followed by this one from Marcus Smythe:

"...
One thing wed want to nail down early on is what exact books are allowed. While its certainly advantage:Mage the more we restrict it, if we dont, the outcome is going to be some nutso creation that would never appear in a game.

I personally suggest core+complete.

Potential Extra Categories:
Party Buffing
Dealing with Spell-Resistant Baddies (Undead, Golems, high-SR Crowd)
Mobility"


----------



## IcyCool (Aug 15, 2006)

takasi said:
			
		

> I personally suggest core+complete.
> 
> Potential Extra Categories:
> Party Buffing
> ...




I'd suggest using Core only.  Because if you can prove that psionics isn't broken compared to arcane in the core, then you'll have a pretty powerful card to play in your arguments.  The only reason to use the complete books is to include the "I'm an evocation spell dressed as a Conjuration spell to ignore SR" Orb spells so that you can hold them out and say, "See how borken arcane magic is!?"

Start with Core, build out from there.


----------



## takasi (Aug 15, 2006)

One last thing to bring up.

With an arcane/divine caster I can ready an action to damage them when they cast.  With a psion I can't do this.  Silent manifestation is a very easy concentration check and it bugs me to no end.  Personally I'd like to see silent manifestation "nerfed" in my games, but I'd like to see what others have to say first.

Also, what house rules have players adapted for psionics in general?  Why do you use them?


----------



## Taraxia (Aug 15, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> Here's something about the Sorcerer that most are leaving out.  If a sorcerer uses a metamagic feat, it increases the time.  From one action to full round and so on.  Even heightened feat will make the spell a longer casting time.  Expending your psionic focus is a paltry cost compared to this penalty.




Er, no. Unless you take feats, regaining focus is a *full-round action* in and of itself. That means that using a metapsionic feat turns a standard action into a standard action + a full round action. This is clearly a higher cost than turning a standard action into a full round action.

The sorcerer can spontaneously decide to metamagic a spell, and then metamagic it again and again as long as he has slots, never having to take any feat other than the metamagic feat itself. The Psion who only has the metapsionic feat must take *two rounds* every time he manifests a metapsionic'd power, using up a full round and drawing AoO's to regain focus. If he takes an *extra feat*, he can refocus as a move action -- which means that to keep on manifesting metapsionic'd powers he must refocus as a move action and manifest as a standard action, effectively increasing manifesting time to a full-round action. If he takes *two more feats* to get a psicrystal with a focus, then he gets two "free" metapsionic manifestations -- *assuming he starts out psionically focused and with a focused crystal* -- before he has to start refocusing.

This is not a "paltry" cost, and the fact that you refer to it as such is, again, a reason you are not arguing in good faith. If you've actually played a psion you should *know* that regaining focus is a pain in the arse and that whether or not you've expended focus is a very big deal. The sorcerer's unavoidable extended casting time is annoying, yes, but it predominantly nerfs the sorcerer next to the *wizard* (or, in some cases, next to the artificer who's got money to blow on spontaneously metamagic'd wands and scrolls), not the psion, who has to pay a very similar cost to use metapsionics.

And if it bothers you that much, just use the PHB2 variant rules for the sorcerer, giving up the familiar for the use of free metamagic. Now he's better than the psion, but the psion is in turn more flavorful, using his "familiar", the psicrystal, for what the sorcerer now does as a lone wolf.


----------



## takasi (Aug 15, 2006)

Taraxia said:
			
		

> Er, no. Unless you take feats, regaining focus is a *full-round action* in and of itself. That means that using a metapsionic feat turns a standard action into a standard action + a full round action. This is clearly a higher cost than turning a standard action into a full round action.




I think he's specifically referring to the comparison of augmentation vs traditional spellcasting.

Psions gain the following for free without taking any feats and without having to use higher level slots:

Silent Spell
Still Spell
Eschew Materials
Heighten Spell (partial)

A sorcerer get a few extra spells than the wizard, but in exchange for this he has to increase his casting time on metamagic spells (which he has very few feats to work with).  The psion clearly has an advantage here.  Overall I don't see the tradeoff or purpose of giving the psion all of these free feats.  It seems as though they were designed with flavor in mind instead of mechanics, but that's just my opinion.


----------



## Taraxia (Aug 15, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> Okay, so know historian can really have an opinion since they did not experience it themselves.  That will destroy the entire academic community.  I can look at the numbers, use the part of that I have observed.  I can make conclusions based the evidence I have.  Again, you appear to have ignored me.  I make a straight psion every level to replace the character if he is killed.  This character from paper looks more broken than Jaden.  I guess that a nuclear bomb prediction that it would set off the atmosphere during the Manhattan Project never came to happen.




...You do realize this is the stupidest argument ever, right, and makes me seriously question that "degree in logic"?

Historians have to rigorously check their theses against facts and records and the interpretations of other historians. That's why history is an academic discipline rather than a whole bunch of people venting their speculations into the air. What you're doing is the equivalent of saying, "I was totally well off and happy in the 1960's; my house was very nice, my job was great, and I loved the government; so all that social unrest is a myth". It's exactly the sort of thing historians are *warned about* when reading primary sources, and the reason historians don't just interview some guy who was alive back then and make his statements into a history book -- because *individual experience is biased and unreliable and has to be checked next to the facts and the experiences of others*.

As for the Manhattan Project thing... you also realize that in engineering, it matters very much that equations and plans on paper have actually been tested in real life, right? That we didn't just take some handwavy set of plans, build the first ever A-Bomb, and drop it on Hiroshima immediately -- that they had to *try it out first* to see if it worked? And this was based on physics and engineering principles that had already been firmly and logically established in experimentation many times before the actual Project started, as opposed to handwavy and subjective claims like "It sure looks like it'd make a big explosion to me!" by someone who'd only just read the plans and had no degree in nuclear physics.

Of course, this whole thing is stupid, since my own subjective experience is that when someone starts making grandiose comparisons between themselves and the entire academic or scientific community, they're probably wrong. But that's me.


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 15, 2006)

takasi said:
			
		

> A little off topic, but I'm starting to see this come into play in our games.  Can you still target creatures with delayed spells?
> 
> Here is the post I was referring to earlier from Nifft that was...er...nifty:
> 
> ...




I would probably rule that you could still target a creature with a delayed spell.  By my understanding of delayed spell, it would check validity of target when the delay time is run, not at the time that the spell is set up.  (Basically, the idea is that the spell checks for a valid target when it happens.  Until the time of the delay has run out, theres no 'spell there' to check.)
Mind you, other rulings would also be possible.. that would raise the tax slightly higher, by forcing people to focus on spreads and the like, rather than target powers and rays.


As to my opinions on Niftys topics?  Well, without creating a character, I'll put forward my opinions/observations on the topics...

- Access to magic item creation, types of items, and resources to create "situational" items (Wizard or Cleric wins by a long shot, but Sorcerer vs. Psion could be interesting):

Agreed, Wizard or Cleric.  Sorcerors ability to use spells on his class list from items might let him buy scrolls, etc, to craft (unsure of ruling on this).  Psions ability to Psychic Reformation into crafting feats and powers takes him past the Sorceror (if this power is allowed, many consider it problematic), but does so at a non-trival XP cost.

- Points of ability damage each caster type can do, and how often;
Psions only 'save for half' ability damage is Charisma, and while a decent power, is one that I often find very limited in utility.
Mages seem to have alot more ability to 'pick a target', though I'm not sure who scales better, here.  Outside of Core+Complete, its Game-Over in favour of the Arcanists, but were not going out there.

- Points of HP damage each caster type can do, and how often;
Assuming the Core+Complete, and that both are optomized for something other than damage?  Probably Psion in terms of Damage, with Wizard winning in Duration and Total Damage.  Core+Complete, optomized for Damage?  Hmm.. tougher call... but Psion probably still over Arcanist by a hair in crunch, with Arcanist more comfortably in the Damage per Day lead.


- Number of save-or-die effects that can be done each day, at high DC, and at moderate DC;

High DC?  Probably Psion, since he can burn up to the 'top'.  This will likely require a feat choice or proper selection of discipline.  This ignores one-off mage tricks on an optomized DC racking wizard... which Im pretty sure wins.

Moderate DC?  Wizard or Sorc.  No contest.  This is also kinda thrown off by the fact that Wizard SoDs tend to be strictly better, and of course the Arcanists get the special 'no save, just die' category.

- Available utility effects.
This one doesnt even BEAR thinking about.  Availability in play will be determined by power selection and forethought, but overall availability?  Arcane.


- Party Buffing
No contest.  Note that Psion buffs self about as well (some argue better.. Id argue more broadly but with less focused power than an Arcane self-buffer), but the Wizard has it all over the Psion on party buffing.

Dealing with Spell-Resistant Baddies (Undead, Golems, high-SR Crowd)
Arcanist.  Force Effects, Orbs, Assay Resistance, etc.  Power Penetration and G.P.P. are lovely, if you want to blow two feats and focus on them.. but I dont think they compete with the above.  Mind you, the Psion still has Crystal Shard for the SR crowd, and Concussion Missle (its like Magic Missile, but sucky!) for the Incorporeal Crew.. but even so.. nah.  Arcane for the win, IMHO.


----------



## Taraxia (Aug 15, 2006)

takasi said:
			
		

> I think he's specifically referring to the comparison of augmentation vs traditional spellcasting.
> 
> Psions gain the following for free without taking any feats and without having to use higher level slots:
> 
> ...




The ability to semi-Heighten for free is part of the point of psions. It's why they get so few powers known compared to spells known -- because their lower-level powers turn into higher-level powers. This is limited, though, as others have pointed out, and is in any case an *essential feature of the class*. Take it away and you might as well just make Psions into Sorcerers with a different spell list.

As far as Eschew Materials, Still Spell and Silent Spell, these are all fairly pointless metamagic feats to take. A character who takes them will be suboptimally built, because Silence doesn't come up often enough to be worth taking a feat to offset, and Still Spell is only useful for those wizards who are wearing armor with an ASF chance, which itself leads to suboptimal builds. And Eschew Materials is just, well, dumb. It makes you marginally more likely to survive being grappled. Woot.

This is really like saying a fighter is broken relative to a wizard because a fighter gets Martial Weapon Proficiency, Heavy Armor Proficiency, etc. "for free" rather than having to take the feats. This is why counting feats as a way to compare classes is dumb, because you clearly have fairly pointless feats (Toughness, Eschew Materials, Deft Hands) vs. really good or at least significant feats (Empower Spell, Power Attack, Mobility).

I mean, sheesh, are we saying that a wizard who has one level of Outsider HD has a "free feat" because the larger HD gives him the same bonus that Toughness would?


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 15, 2006)

IcyCool said:
			
		

> I'd suggest using Core only.  Because if you can prove that psionics isn't broken compared to arcane in the core, then you'll have a pretty powerful card to play in your arguments.  The only reason to use the complete books is to include the "I'm an evocation spell dressed as a Conjuration spell to ignore SR" Orb spells so that you can hold them out and say, "See how borken arcane magic is!?"
> 
> Start with Core, build out from there.




See, I disagree inasmuch as Psionics was brought into 3.5 in a 'Core+Complete' Environment... several Complete books were already out, and more were in the works.

And a powerful card?  It would be a nigh overwelming one, because the SRD is the -weakest- Arcane magic ever, ever got... whereas Psionics got nerfted in its complete book, and mostly ignored in the others (meanwhile full-progression Arcane PRCs spring up like mushrooms).  Im sorry, im not.. quite.. willing to willfully gimp my arguement to that great a degree (though I still believe it winnable).

Besides, Core+Complete seems to be the closest thing to a 'baseline game' that you often see... I cant recall the last Core-only game in my area, and alot of GMs still frown on things beyond complete (Faerun, I'm lookin at you, ya monkey!)... but pretty much everyone considers the Complete series to be fare game.  Thats just my experience.


----------



## takasi (Aug 15, 2006)

Taraxia said:
			
		

> Historians have to rigorously check their theses against facts and records and the interpretations of other historians. That's why history is an academic discipline rather than a whole bunch of people venting their speculations into the air. What you're doing is the equivalent of saying, "I was totally well off and happy in the 1960's; my house was very nice, my job was great, and I loved the government; so all that social unrest is a myth". It's exactly the sort of thing historians are *warned about* when reading primary sources, and the reason historians don't just interview some guy who was alive back then and make his statements into a history book -- because *individual experience is biased and unreliable and has to be checked next to the facts and the experiences of others*.




To be fair though, it only takes one witness to document their experience.  Experimentation can be done with one person, and proper facts and conclusions can be drawn in isolation.

If someone plays a class like a wizard or psion and tests various manifestations, spells, feats, etc in play there's no reason why he can't draw conclusions.  He may not have expressed his reasoning behind those conclusions yet but you can't deny that he could be correct.  You also can't say he's right until he provides evidence of course, but he could have all the "evidence" he needs by simply playing the game.  Game mechanics are very abstract, and do not necessarily need extensive playtesting and multiple perspectives to find errors.  Solving those errors, on the other hand...


----------



## takasi (Aug 15, 2006)

Taraxia said:
			
		

> The ability to semi-Heighten for free is part of the point of psions. It's why they get so few powers known compared to spells known -- because their lower-level powers turn into higher-level powers. This is limited, though, as others have pointed out, and is in any case an *essential feature of the class*. Take it away and you might as well just make Psions into Sorcerers with a different spell list.




Wait, doesn't the psion actually have MORE powers known per level than a sorcerer has spells?  I may be wrong on that one.  Anyone?



			
				Taraxia said:
			
		

> As far as Eschew Materials, Still Spell and Silent Spell, these are all fairly pointless metamagic feats to take. A character who takes them will be suboptimally built, because Silence doesn't come up often enough to be worth taking a feat to offset, and Still Spell is only useful for those wizards who are wearing armor with an ASF chance, which itself leads to suboptimal builds. And Eschew Materials is just, well, dumb. It makes you marginally more likely to survive being grappled. Woot.




A common tactic for defeating a low-mid level wizard is to cast silence on grapplers so they can target casters.  You can't do this to a psion.  Still spell and silent spell get around this, but they are very expensive as you pointed out (not worth it).  A psion gets them for free, totally bypassing this "DM challenge" to casters. 



			
				Taraxia said:
			
		

> This is really like saying a fighter is broken relative to a wizard because a fighter gets Martial Weapon Proficiency, Heavy Armor Proficiency, etc. "for free" rather than having to take the feats. This is why counting feats as a way to compare classes is dumb, because you clearly have fairly pointless feats (Toughness, Eschew Materials, Deft Hands) vs. really good or at least significant feats (Empower Spell, Power Attack, Mobility).




Again, I don't find those feats pointless.  However, a fighter does get these for free whereas a wizard would have to pay for them with feat selections.  This should be taken into consideration when comparing the fighter with the wizard correct?  If you had a class that was identical to a wizard in every aspect except for weapon and armor proficiency wouldn't you raise an eyebrow?



			
				Taraxia said:
			
		

> I mean, sheesh, are we saying that a wizard who has one level of Outsider HD has a "free feat" because the larger HD gives him the same bonus that Toughness would?




You would say this, which is why you have to pay for it in ECL.


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 15, 2006)

Psion Powers Known:  36 total.
Sorceror Spells Known: 34, excluding 0 lvl spells.  43, Including.
(Repeat after me.  "The Sorceror is jacked because hes an attempt to spot-weld spontaneous casting onto a Vancian system".  Add a side note of 'Alot of Psionic fans are psionic fans not because they like brain-melting, but because they like spontaneous casting, and the Sorceror is jacked.  The sorceror is so jacked that the psi-fans are willing to give up full-progression PRCs with no class featuers to loose, and no-save-just-dies to get away from the stupidity that is a spontaneous caster being out of magic missiles but having a quiver of Meteor Swarms in his hands.")
(Mind you, the new, PHB2, looses-the-familiar-for-metamagic Sorceror.. is somewhat less jacked... and a better user of metamagic than the Psion, in some ways)


RE:  A common tactic for defeating low and mid level wizards...
-I always found it sufficient to simply close and munch the low to mid level wizard, with whatever baddy bruiser was willing to charge past the fighter.  By 8-10, the Wizard should have immunized himself from such tactics in any one of a lot of ways.
-Now, I'm not agreeing that this isnt an advantage to the Psion.. I just dont see it as a huge one.  Lets face it, if every Wizard was taking still, silent, etc and apply them to every spell because they were all that great, then giving them to the Psion for free would be a huge issue.

I dont think Ive seen more than a very tiny handful of players take and use these feats.  There are simply better ways to accomplish the goal (Ring of Free Action!) and those ways are as likely to be used by the Psion as the Wizard (thus reducing the opportunity cost arguement)

RE:  A Wizard with Heavy Armor and All Martial Weapons Proficiencies
Actually, I pity the fool who trades any of their wizards feats for these stinkers.  Their low value to the character in question.. about on par with the aformentioned psion abilities.

RE:  Outsider HD.
Thank you for that example of how little value some feats have compared to caster levels/caster power.  Lets face it.. the guy who takes an ECL hit for toughness?  Thats a heckva sacrifice.


Side Note:
Can I get the 'Arcane is fine, psionics is broken' Crowd to comment on the 'No save Just Die' difference?


----------



## IcyCool (Aug 15, 2006)

Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> See, I disagree inasmuch as Psionics was brought into 3.5 in a 'Core+Complete' Environment... several Complete books were already out, and more were in the works.




Well, Complete Warrior and Complete Divine (I think) were out.  I've got no problem comparing based on Core + those two.  I'll not bother discussing how "balanced" Psionics is against the Orb spells, or any Forgotten Realms material when I think/know that those things are broken.



			
				Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> And a powerful card?  It would be a nigh overwelming one, because the SRD is the -weakest- Arcane magic ever, ever got...




Well, then, why don't you just list the broken things from the supplemental material you want to use, and we can discuss the "balance" of those items?  That way, once we are agreed on what is and isn't balanced, we'll have a mutually acceptable baseline for a Psionics balance discussion.

I've rarely seen anyone find something in the Core unbalanced (save one or two spells, and the whole Psionics debacle).  I honestly don't see why using Core as a baseline is a bad thing, unless you are after a few broken tactics from supplemental books to prove your point.  Trust me, if you need to rely on that to prove your arguement, it's already "gimped".



			
				Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> Besides, Core+Complete seems to be the closest thing to a 'baseline game' that you often see... I cant recall the last Core-only game in my area, and alot of GMs still frown on things beyond complete (Faerun, I'm lookin at you, ya monkey!)... but pretty much everyone considers the Complete series to be fare game.  Thats just my experience.




Mine is different, and the next poster will likely tell you the same.  But I'll bet you that all of those games at least use the Core (with "psionics" as a possible exception).  With the complaints in this thread of "bias" and "personal experiences" coloring the perceptions of people regarding psioncs, I find it odd that you don't want to use the only guaranteed common ground as your comparison point.  Why? (And, I hope you'll realize, simply stating "because Arcane magic is weakest in the Core" is as valid a point as "psionics is broken because I made an overpowered character with it one time.")


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 16, 2006)

IcyCool said:
			
		

> Well, Complete Warrior and Complete Divine (I think) were out.  I've got no problem comparing based on Core + those two.  I'll not bother discussing how "balanced" Psionics is against the Orb spells, or any Forgotten Realms material when I think/know that those things are broken.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




**EDIT LONG POST**

So your conceeding that outside pure, Core Arcane magic, as published, is superior to Psionics?  

Mind you, -I- suggested complete+SRD as a generous compromise to the opposing position (because we both know who wins if its 'All of 3.5', and it aint you).  Generosity in debate has its limits, and thats mine.  Im contending that out of all of 3.5, I -only- need the SRD+Complete to pull off a decisive, non-debateable, not-even-interesting victory for the superiority of Arcane casting.

I, personally, think its alot closer in the SRD, but still advantage Arcane.  However, I feel it is too close to be subject to the kind of overwelming, soul-crushing, counterarguement-annulling, on-the-face-of-it-blatant proof that it would take to budge the people who have decided psionics is "Bad, all bad, all ways bad, forever bad, Ho!".

I'll reiterate a prior question, out of pure personal curiosity... Creationist or Evolutionist, which are you?


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 16, 2006)

When we finish this campaign around 21st to 23rd level, takasi said he will be running another campaign.  Since it is on Eberron, it will be core plus Eberron.  We will get as a choice to unlock one non-core thing per level whether spell/feat/PrC/ect.  I intend to run a human Erudite whom I think is potentially more broken than the Psion to level 20.  40 powers plus upto 11 unique/restricted powers.  Again, I am taking this class to refine my opinions that fundamentally there are problems with Psionics that need addressing.

My conclusions are based on four things, one, my experience to date with my current character, second, my projections withbuilding alternatecharacters and seeing what they could have done in the same situation as the current character, three, talking over with my group the impressions that they have and four, putting info onto this list and evaluating those responses.

Not all things in psionics are broken but I have pointed out the things that are most glaring to me as problems in which fine tuning is needed.


----------



## Tikiman (Aug 16, 2006)

Taraxia said:
			
		

> If you have a degree in "logic" (by which you mean what, a math concentration?) then you ought to know that anecdotal evidence means very little in these sorts of situations. There are way too many variables in people's subjective experience for any single person's experience saying "Psionics is broken" to mean anything on its own.



May I give you a hug?  How about a nice batch of cookies?  



			
				takasi said:
			
		

> Well there's your answer: the Forgotten Realms are broken.



Oh don't get me started on Forgotten Realms material.  One of my players made an Elminster wanna-be once and I actually _burned_ his character sheet right in front of him.  Everyone else at the table said 'we told you so'.



			
				takasi said:
			
		

> With an arcane/divine caster I can ready an action to damage them when they cast. With a psion I can't do this. Silent manifestation is a very easy concentration check and it bugs me to no end. Personally I'd like to see silent manifestation "nerfed" in my games, but I'd like to see what others have to say first.



Actually, even if a psion hides his displays he still provokes attacks of opportunity and opponents can still ready an action against him.  True, he doesn't have ectoplasm shooting out his wazoo, but he does look like his bowels are moving violently.  In the heat of combat if you stop and stand still for more then a second it's an obvious opening.  In addition, there aren't actually any rules for what happens when a psion hides his displays, so the DM has 100% freedom to interpret the situation as he sees fit.  If the player was clever and stood in a crowded place with a hood on while making a hide/bluff check, you should reward him for his efforts, but if he just stands in front of the guy and manifests feel free to smack him around.  And note that however you rule on this situation will pertain to Spell-like abilities (which are another instance of componentless casting).

I think the closes thing to official rules for what happens when you cast/manifest without components is that it enforces a -10 penalty to opponents spellcraft checks.  That's it.



			
				takasi said:
			
		

> Also, what house rules have players adapted for psionics in general? Why do you use them?



I ban Metamorphosis (and Polymorph, not Baleful though).  The ability is just plain broken.  I attach a 10xp/round gained cost to Temporal Acceleration to prevent abuse and make it a 'oh god, oh god, we're all gonna die' power.  I make Psychic Reformation a DM only power (I just stole it and use it as my respec system for new players).  I don't use ANY of the Dominate errata (and in fact use it as a template for the arcane version).

One of the more important houserules I have is that I limit the amount of PP people are allowed to spend in combats from time to time.  The general formula is 20% + 10% for every CR the encounter is above the party.  This is highly useful if I don't feel like throwing 3-4 encounters at the party per rest cycle.  I do similar for arcane/divine casters (I have little note cards that say 'you may use 1 Xth, 1 Yth, and 2 Zth level spells this combat').

And, as I have done for all my games, at all tables, for all characters, ever since 2nd edition, I require that non-core material be subject to balancing well before gameplay.  If you want to use spell/feat X from Complete Garbage, you have to run it past me at least 24 hours before you plan on using it.


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 16, 2006)

Well, considering that your going for broken, I have every faith in your ability to acheive it.
I have less faith in what it will prove.. but whatever you and your fellow players enjoy!


----------



## takasi (Aug 16, 2006)

Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> "The Sorceror is jacked because hes an attempt to spot-weld spontaneous casting onto a Vancian system".




Can we agree then that the assertion that psions are balanced because they have fewer powers known is unfounded?



			
				Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> RE:  A common tactic for defeating low and mid level wizards...
> -I always found it sufficient to simply close and munch the low to mid level wizard, with whatever baddy bruiser was willing to charge past the fighter.  By 8-10, the Wizard should have immunized himself from such tactics in any one of a lot of ways.




How is he completely immune to this?  Freedom of movement, using up a 4th lvl slot?  This can be dispelled.  A ring of fom?  Why should the psion get this for free?  Buffs can be dispelled, but the psion is always immune to this tactic.  Why?  Where is the drawback?



			
				Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> -Now, I'm not agreeing that this isnt an advantage to the Psion.. I just dont see it as a huge one.  Lets face it, if every Wizard was taking still, silent, etc and apply them to every spell because they were all that great, then giving them to the Psion for free would be a huge issue.




Arcane casters don't take this because there is a cost involved:  higher level spell slots AND feat slots.  This doesn't make the ability bad; the ability is great, it's just not worth the high cost.

Don't forget the most important benefit to having a simultaneously Stilled, Silent spells with eschew materials (3 free feats and 2 spell slots for the psion):  interruptions.  You cannot ready actions against psions.  This is a significant advantage and I don't see the drawback for this.



			
				Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> RE:  A Wizard with Heavy Armor and All Martial Weapons Proficiencies Actually, I pity the fool who trades any of their wizards feats for these stinkers.  Their low value to the character in question.. about on par with the aformentioned psion abilities.




It's not a trade we're talking about here.  I said if they were identical, except one class had the feature for free.  What's the purpose of the advantage?



			
				Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> RE:  Outsider HD.
> Thank you for that example of how little value some feats have compared to caster levels/caster power.  Lets face it.. the guy who takes an ECL hit for toughness?  Thats a heckva sacrifice.




It's still an advantage that needs to be balanced.  Would you give them a level of outsider for free?




			
				Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> Side Note:
> Can I get the 'Arcane is fine, psionics is broken' Crowd to comment on the 'No save Just Die' difference?




Can you name a few of these spells so we can discuss them?

Most of them are "HD = caster level - 10", and the vast majority of encounters in published sources do not involve creatures that are 10 HD below the party.


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 16, 2006)

Tikiman said:
			
		

> May I give you a hug?  How about a nice batch of cookies?
> 
> 
> Oh don't get me started on Forgotten Realms material.  One of my players made an Elminster wanna-be once and I actually _burned_ his character sheet right in front of him.  Everyone else at the table said 'we told you so'.
> ...




Taraxia, Takasi, Tikiman... Its getting to where I need a play card to know which of you to flame when I see you posting.     Seriously though, its kinda nice.. forces me to assess posts, and not posters.

One question.. do you find that the 10xp/rnd thing AND the "X % of Resources-per-fight' thing are necessary at the same time?  While Ive considered a self-imposed XP cost on Temp. Acceleration (so that I dont feel dirty taking it... I used to have Metamorphosis and reformed it away last level gain, because its just that whacked...), with a hard cap of PsPs-per-round, it seems that Temp. Accel. would mostly loose its point (cause your going to blow right past that hard cap headed north before you really start to pay for using it... mostly, its just going to be points of that cap that cant go into effect)

One interseting side-light is the Tome of Battle stuff.. with the sword-magic-folks going to a 'Per-Fight' rather than a 'Per-Day' paradigm, I've been wondering what D+D would look like rebalanced around a 'per fight' paradigm.  Move away from grinding down even-CR encounters and retreating to recharge, to a little more direct heroism, and retreating when the sun goes down or when you get seriously overextended.  My concern would of course be the vast increase in character mortality... but its still a thought.

Additional side-thought... Hmm... maybe juggle Psionics so that your 'per fight' expenditure is 20% of your 'list total', and then put a HP burn (like ability burn, but maybe-worth-actually-doing) to go above that (of course, no burning temp HPs, friends HPs, healed HPs, healble HPs, etc)... with full recharges between fights.  Maybe do something similar with the Arcanists, etc.  Might be intersting.. wed limit the impact of the Per-Day guys, to help balance their impact with the poor every-round bastards...  though the implications for repeated, out of combat use of certain powers might be iffy.  Okay, back on topic!


----------



## Tikiman (Aug 16, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> plus upto 11 unique/restricted powers.



I'm not sure what you mean by this.  An Erudite may learn as many Discipline powers as he wants, but he has to A) find someone with that power (or a stone), and B) pay 20xp/level to get access to it (as well as spending 8 hours in meditation).  Or were you reffering to the non-core powers you could select (in which case wouldn't it be 19, 1/level minus level 1 which bought you Erudite)?  Or are you talking about the fact that an Erudite, at level 20, may only manifest up to 11 of his powers known per day (he can manifest them again and again, but he can only use 11 different powers per day)?

Given that everyone on this thread (even your rude, assulting arch-nemesis, me) agrees that Temporal Acceleration is probably better off banned, will you be taking the power?  What about stuff like Schism, Anticipatory Strike, Synchronicity, etc?

And don't forget to use the Complete Psionic errata.  Specifically: you may only have 1 astral construct in existance at any time, crystal shard (and similar powers) are subject to all forms of damage reduction (even /magic), and Energy Missile/Stun now have a DC progression of +1/2pp spent.  You know, technically, because the updated versions of these powers appear in a non-core book, you should have to expend your 1 non-core thing/level to get them.  But that's kinda splitting hairs.   



			
				Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> Well, considering that your going for broken, I have every faith in your ability to acheive it.
> I have less faith in what it will prove.. but whatever you and your fellow players enjoy!



What he said.


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 16, 2006)

takasi said:
			
		

> Can we agree then that the assertion that psions are balanced because they have fewer powers known is unfounded?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The Psion hardly gets his Ring of FOM for free.. I paid as much for mine as the Arcanist did for his, and I wanted it just as bad.  Ive got better things to do with my life than try to make concentration checks and praying while the improved-grabber-o-doom is warming up his Full Attack Action.  EVERY caster should get a ring of FoM.  Heck, everyone should get it.  Grab is too good, and the R of FoM is 'standard equipment' at my tables, because of it.

I agree that any assertion based on the Psion being balanced with the Sorcerer based on powers known is likely false.

RE:  Still, silent, etc.  Yup, a Psion can mask his casting in ways the mage cannot.  Nowhere in the psionics book does it say that you cant ready an action against it (and as it provokes AoOs, I and every GM I run with has ruled that its sufficiently obvious to ready against).  If you dont want to get readied against, go Quicken.

If the two were completely identical, then of course, X+N>X, where the value of N is greater than 0.  However, the two are not externally identical (as you are so fond of pointing out) and I contend that the advantage, while not nonexistant, is also not sufficient to be unbalancing.  I contend that you overstate the value of N, and have said why.

You know, I see where this is going.  You contend that in any time, in any way, psionics is better than magic, it is an advantage that needs to be balanced by Psionics giving up something it currently has to balance it out.  I contend that psionics gives up many things it Arcane magic currently has.  A few free feats, for one.  Continuing Support for another.  A Complete book that isnt errata+nerfs, for a third.  The ability to summon mutlilpe creatures at once, theres one.  Better Save-or-Dies, longer power list with lots of very useful specialized effects, more ability to buff the party, better board control, better AOE save-or-dies earlier.. 


As for 'No Save, Just Die'
1.)  Otto's Irresistable Dance.  No Save.  Just Die.
2.)  Mordenkainens Disjunction:  Hmm.. Okay, I take this one back half-way.. your items get a save.  So call it all your hanging effects and half your magic items.  Thats a 'W' in my book.
3.)   Power Word:  Kill.
4.)  Enervation Salvos.

Above is core only, top-of-my-head only.


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 16, 2006)

Oh, and by the way...  I'm still curious as to the response to:

"Why Psionics is Broken, and what is needed to fix it"
Psionics suffers from an inflexible concept of power knowledge, limiting the ability of the Psion to fill the 'problem-solver' role in the party normally required of D4 classes.

This stems from a number of factors:
1.) Feat Shortage. Its difficult to emulate a Wizard when your down two feats right out the door. (Down three or four if you count the cost of actually USING metamagic, but... the Psion is a more casual user of metamagic than the Wizard, so this is a bonus).
1a.) Change Psions to recieve Psycrstals and Enscribe Power Stone for free at first level, same as Scribe Scroll and Familiar. Note that Psicrystals are better in some ways than Familiar... but OTOH, a raven is just a raven. A rock with ectoplasmic legs skittering along the ceiling draws comment.

2.) Any psion is by definition closed off from getting a vast majority of the basic 'wizarding options' that he needs to fill the wizard role in parties.
2a.) Allow Psions to choose freely from other discipline lists, perhaps limit them to one level lower than their current max level knowable.

3.) The psions need to pour PSPs into powers to keep them functional causes him to have shorter legs than the wizard.
3a.) While I'm tempted to suggest 'free scaling' up to the common breakpoint for Psions (IE, up to 10 dice for lvl 3 powers, etc), that might be a bit much.

4.) Psion mainstay powers, being low level, tend to fail in the presence of dispels or Globes.
4a.) Every two PsPs spent to enhance a power should also increase its level by 1 for purposes of effects that tend to cancel or counter said power.


----------



## Tikiman (Aug 16, 2006)

Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> Taraxia, Takasi, Tikiman... Its getting to where I need a play card to know which of you to flame when I see you posting.  Seriously though, its kinda nice.. forces me to assess posts, and not posters.



You're flaming me?  I didn't notice that.  *looks down at singed arm hair*  Oh, THAT'S what that smell is.  



			
				Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> One question.. do you find that the 10xp/rnd thing AND the "X % of Resources-per-fight' thing are necessary at the same time?



I sorta do.  I've seen people pull off some pretty efficient novas.  I basically use the two rules for two different purposes though (an abusable power for TA, metagaming for % cards), so I never really considered their cumulative effects.  I suppose you could get away with just one of them, in which case I would recommend the % resource cards more.  A lot of the time if people are worried enough to use TA, and I deem it an appropriate usage, I will wave the % cards to avoid TPK situations.  So long as they're running like little girls it's all good.  



			
				Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> One interseting side-light is the Tome of Battle stuff.. with the sword-magic-folks going to a 'Per-Fight' rather than a 'Per-Day' paradigm, I've been wondering what D+D would look like rebalanced around a 'per fight' paradigm. Move away from grinding down even-CR encounters and retreating to recharge, to a little more direct heroism, and retreating when the sun goes down or when you get seriously overextended. My concern would of course be the vast increase in character mortality... but its still a thought.



I would absolutely love to see 4th edition introduce a /encounter system, instead of a /day system.  I didn't know Tome of Battle had relevant material on it though (haven't been able to snag the book).  Between that and what I've read of The Book of Nine Swords, I may very well get my wish.



			
				Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> Additional side-thought... Hmm... maybe juggle Psionics so that your 'per fight' expenditure is 20% of your 'list total', and then put a HP burn (like ability burn, but maybe-worth-actually-doing) to go above that (of course, no burning temp HPs, friends HPs, healed HPs, healble HPs, etc)... with full recharges between fights. Maybe do something similar with the Arcanists, etc. Might be intersting.. wed limit the impact of the Per-Day guys, to help balance their impact with the poor every-round bastards... though the implications for repeated, out of combat use of certain powers might be iffy. Okay, back on topic!



BESM D20 has an 'Advanced d20 Magic' system that you might be interested in.  You don't have any spells/day.  Instead, every time you cast a spell you make a Fort save against the spells DC (better spells = higher DC).  Every time you cast you take Drain damage (subdual damage, cannot be magically healed).  If you pass the DC by 10 or more, you take 1/2 drain damage.  If you fail the save, you take double drain damage and must make a Control check (failure results in the spell fizzling, and possibly harmful side-effects for the caster like being Dazed or Stunned).  As examples, Magic Missile has a DC of 20 and causes 1d6 drain damage.  Fireball has a DC of 34 and deals 1d10 drain damage.  Sadly, I haven't found a group that wants to give this system a try, so the book has just been collecting dust.




			
				Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> A Complete book that isnt errata+nerfs,



And all the editing errors.  Can't forget something that shows up at every turn of the page.  I especially love how Energy Emanation was changed to no longer allow a save, but the electric variant of it still says it adds +2 to the save DC.


----------



## takasi (Aug 16, 2006)

Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> The Psion hardly gets his Ring of FOM for free.. I paid as much for mine as the Arcanist did for his, and I wanted it just as bad.  Ive got better things to do with my life than try to make concentration checks and praying while the improved-grabber-o-doom is warming up his Full Attack Action.  EVERY caster should get a ring of FoM.  Heck, everyone should get it.  Grab is too good, and the R of FoM is 'standard equipment' at my tables, because of it.




It's extremely easy to make those concentration checks, to the point that it's meaningless.  



			
				Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> RE:  Still, silent, etc.  Yup, a Psion can mask his casting in ways the mage cannot.  Nowhere in the psionics book does it say that you cant ready an action against it (and as it provokes AoOs, I and every GM I run with has ruled that its sufficiently obvious to ready against).  If you dont want to get readied against, go Quicken.




That's a house rule.  The enemy must be be aware of trigger conditions in order to ready an action.  The reason for the AoO is not because an enemy notices the manifestation, it's because the psion cannot defend against it.  Manifestations, even silent ones, require concentration, effectively dropping their guard.  Combat in d20 is abstract and it is assumed that a character is always trying to hit someone with an attack and someone in melee is always trying to avoid that attack.  Anything that prevents someone from defending themselves provokes an AoW, whether you can tell what they're doing or not.

Do you feel it's "broken" without the house rule?



			
				Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> If the two were completely identical, then of course, X+N>X, where the value of N is greater than 0.  However, the two are not externally identical (as you are so fond of pointing out) and I contend that the advantage, while not nonexistant, is also not sufficient to be unbalancing.  I contend that you overstate the value of N, and have said why.




Exactly how much do you value these advantages?  What has the psion given up for these?



			
				Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> You know, I see where this is going.  You contend that in any time, in any way, psionics is better than magic, it is an advantage that needs to be balanced by Psionics giving up something it currently has to balance it out.  I contend that psionics gives up many things it Arcane magic currently has.




You're right, and I think this is a great way to analyze class balance.  You would need to rate every advantage and disadvantage and compare them with the rest of the game.



			
				Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> A few free feats, for one.  Continuing Support for another.  A Complete book that isnt errata+nerfs, for a third.  The ability to summon mutlilpe creatures at once, theres one.  Better Save-or-Dies, longer power list with lots of very useful specialized effects, more ability to buff the party, better board control, better AOE save-or-dies earlier..




Product support is important to consider, which is why I prefer to compare supplements to core vs class vs class.  Core vs XPH.  You could also compare supplement+core to supplement+core.  Core+Tome of Magic vs Core+XPH.  Core+Complete Arcane vs Core+XPH+Complete Psion.  As others have suggested (including you), a better balance discussion limits book comparisons, so the drawback of "support" is negated. 



			
				Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> As for 'No Save, Just Die'
> 1.)  Otto's Irresistable Dance.  No Save.  Just Die.
> 2.)  Mordenkainens Disjunction:  Hmm.. Okay, I take this one back half-way.. your items get a save.  So call it all your hanging effects and half your magic items.  Thats a 'W' in my book.
> 3.)   Power Word:  Kill.
> 4.)  Enervation Salvos.




1.) No save, crowd control (single target).  
2.) No save, dispel (save for items)
3.) No save, 100 damage max
4.) What's this one?


----------



## takasi (Aug 16, 2006)

I few pages back I asked for feedback on a per encounter take on psionics.

Take your level plus stat power bonus and multiply it by some factor to be determined by playtesting.  Add a regenerative factor of x pp every minute, effectively making point management a per encounter affair for the most part.


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 16, 2006)

takasi said:
			
		

> It's extremely easy to make those concentration checks, to the point that it's meaningless.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




1.)  RE Concentration Checks when Grappled:  Considering that the grapple also probably came with some damage, some continuing damage, and in the anticipation of you-just-died damage, Ill pay the gold and not roll.

2.)  RE:  House Rule.  We differ in perception.  My perception is that you would be aware that a foe is provoking AOOs (else, how could one make them?  And they cant just happen automatically, without your concious involvement, else how could you choose NOT to make them?)

3.)  Well, he gave up infinite spells known, two free feats of higher relative value (if you wish, in my games, I suppose you may get psionic 'manifesting' in place of arcane finger-waving etc., and a 5XP per GP ratio for expensive magic items, rather than the familiar and scribe scroll.  As a GM, I wouldnt have a problem with that trade being made by a player) and all the other differences that are advantage mage.

4.)  Placing exact values on every advantage and disadvantage and weighing them:  Its a good starting place, but its not the end of the analysis.  Lets face it, even in an everything-has-a-cost system (say, the HERO system), and even assuming that all those costs are exactly correct for the general condition (a big assumption, and one that no game has yet met, IMHO), then certain combinations of those abilities will still outperform others.

5.)  Product Support defines the play environment, which is why it is a consideration at the very least in balance discussions, IMHO.  I intially offered to compare at the core+complete level (That is to say, Complete Warrior, Divine, Arcane, Adventurer, and Psion, coupled with the XPH, the PHB, the DMG, and MM1).  At least one poster (was it you?) was unhappy with that chosen level.  Oh, well, cant please everyone.

RE:  Spells.

In my gaming experience, crowd control is very nearly transitive with death in game situations.  While a CCed target is not YET dead, he probably can be very easily MADE dead, and his absence from the fight throws the balance against his side pretty seriously (assuming he was a significant target.  If he was the Goblin compainon of a Great Wyrm, and you should be fighting a Great Wyrm, ignore him.  If hes one of 3 same-CR baddies in an encounter, and you put him out of the fight for even two rounds, the fight is pretty much done)

As for Mordenkainens Disjunction:  While not a kill in and of itself, the advantage generated is, like Ottos Dance, sufficient to generate one.

As for Power Word:  Kill (and argueably its lesser cousins are BETTER, tactically, as they work on higher HP targets)... for anything with HP <= 100, its a death sentence.  Ive played alot of PCs that had <=100 HPs.  As for foes?  Sure, you have to wait till round 2 or so, but after the Barbarian Charged it, you nuked it, the rogue shanked it, and the cleric whapped it, its a 'forced close' button.  Turns any close call fight into a win.
And why are you fighting things that you cant get under 100HP before they TPK you, anyway?

Enervation Salvos:  I was referring to Enervation+Quickened Enervation, Quickened Enervation+Dual Wand Wielding for 2 more, or Metamagiced Innervation.  Its one of those things that gets nasty, fast, when you start piling it out.  2d4 negative levels stinks.  4+1d4 Negative levels REALLY stinks.  Best bet is to have one memorized Quickened, Split (and run it through a rod of Maximize) and have one memorized Maximized, Split (and run it through a Rod of Quicken).  16 Negative Levels, no save.


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 16, 2006)

takasi said:
			
		

> I few pages back I asked for feedback on a per encounter take on psionics.
> 
> Take your level plus stat power bonus and multiply it by some factor to be determined by playtesting.  Add a regenerative factor of x pp every minute, effectively making point management a per encounter affair for the most part.




Hmm.. come up with a % that makes everyone happy, and I could get behind that.

I prefer per-encounter management rather than per-day management.  

Put in some fashion to exceed those limits, with an appropriate risk/penalty, and Id be on board 100%.

Now, it would cost the psion some of his flavour (I really like the fine-throttle-control of the Psion), but my preferences for per-encounter are even stronger, so I could live with it, no worries.

Thoughts:
1.)  Base it off of total PSPs.  This encourages feats that give extra PsPs (at least at epic level, where such feats matter)
2.)  Give some method of 'pushing'  Pushing is heroic.
3.)  Were you planning on doing this with Arcane/Divine as well?  Good and bad both ways...
4.)  Pay careful attention to out-of-combat, problem-solving type powers.  Divinations, especially.  A character with unlimited divinations per day is going to be just hell in any kind of non-raw-combat adventure... and damn devastating IN a raw-combat adventure.


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 16, 2006)

Tikiman said:
			
		

> I'm not sure what you mean by this.  An Erudite may learn as many Discipline powers as he wants, but he has to A) find someone with that power (or a stone), and B) pay 20xp/level to get access to it (as well as spending 8 hours in meditation).  Or were you reffering to the non-core powers you could select (in which case wouldn't it be 19, 1/level minus level 1 which bought you Erudite)?  Or are you talking about the fact that an Erudite, at level 20, may only manifest up to 11 of his powers known per day (he can manifest them again and again, but he can only use 11 different powers per day)?
> 
> Given that everyone on this thread (even your rude, assulting arch-nemesis, me) agrees that Temporal Acceleration is probably better off banned, will you be taking the power?  What about stuff like Schism, Anticipatory Strike, Synchronicity, etc?
> 
> ...




Please read all of page 154 in the complete Psionicist.  An Erudite cannot automatically learn or unlock powers from any discipline list (Egoist, Shaper, Telepath, ect).  He may unlock 2 disciplines of any level he can manifest from the Psion/Wilder lists.  The unique powers per day are from powers on a discipline list or another list such as a mantle or class list.  This class is considered one thing outside of non-core.  I'm unlocking the class as my 1st level unlock.


----------



## Tikiman (Aug 16, 2006)

takasi said:
			
		

> That's a house rule. The enemy must be be aware of trigger conditions in order to ready an action.



It's a house rule no matter which way you go.  There are no rules for what happens when you manifest without displays other then you manifest without displays.  The closest analogy, casting without components, imposes a -10 to opponents spellcraft checks but is in every other way 100% identical to regular casting, including readied actions.  Also, the XPH specifically states that manifesting a power causes a "faraway gaze, the focus on something other then the material world, and the split-second of focus required to manifest a power."  You are 100% within your rights as DM to state that this is all it takes to set off a triggered action.  The ball has been in your court from day 1.  Now take that ball and hit your players squarely between the legs/eyes (as you see fit).


And I really feel the need to stick my nose into your business and give you a bit of advice about wildstarsreach's upcoming Erudite (sorry   ).  I would specifically like to call to attention the fact that you are 100% within your rights to deny him access to powers he tries to gain (except the 2/level he gets).  Right in the description of the Erudite it states "many [psions] jealousy guard their higher level powers and charge much more (or deny access to them altogether)".  This means that he can't just walk down to the local Psi-mart and pick up any power he wants to.  Additionally, you have to take into account that you're playing in an Ebberon setting.  There are almost no higher level casters in the world.

As evidence of this, I cite Sharn: City of Towers.  Sharn is one of the largest cities on the planet, and it has the biggest magical goods economy ("If it can be bought, it can be bought here").  On page 23 it states that "There are no resident NPCs in Sharn who can cast spells of 7th level or higher, and few who can cast 6th level spells...are unlikely to exchange their services for gold, dealing instead in favors and services.  As a general rule, characters can only purchase spells of 5th level or below.  Finding higher-level spells should be part of a quest or adventure."  And all of this applies to magic, which is insanely abundant in Eberron.  I can only guess that psionic materials would be more difficult to find.  This is six times more true for Discipline powers.

Now I'm not trying to tell you how to play your game, and I apologize if this comes off as bossy, but I really had to throw it out there.  wildstarsreach is going to metagame the system to make his character powerful, so I suggest you metagame his power access in return to keep him in line with the rest of the party.  He apparently refuses to balance himself in this regard.

Couldn't you do us all a favor and beat him until he makes a character on par with the rest of the group?   I recommend Complete Psionic, as it's probably the only thing the book does properly.



			
				takasi said:
			
		

> I few pages back I asked for feedback on a per encounter take on psionics.
> Take your level plus stat power bonus and multiply it by some factor to be determined by playtesting. Add a regenerative factor of x pp every minute, effectively making point management a per encounter affair for the most part.



Unfortunately the entire D&D system is based around the concept of encounters/day, so this system would have a lot of wonky loose ends.  Powers that last 1hr/level would basically no longer have any cost.  Extend Power + 10min/level powers would also have no cost.  People would walk around continually re-manifesting Extended 1min/level powers as well.  The Unearthed Arcana recharge system has similar faults.

The best I can suggest is my % resource card idea.  Allow manifesters acces to 20% of their PP pool, +10%/CR the encounter exceeds the party level (so, party level 3 + CR 5 encounter = 40%, roughly 7pp).  A similar system can, and should, be applied to casters as well.  Though, actually, in your case it may be best to just apply this system to wildstarsreach only.


----------



## Tikiman (Aug 16, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> Please read all of page 154 in the complete Psionicist. An Erudite cannot automatically learn or unlock powers from any discipline list (Egoist, Shaper, Telepath, ect). He may unlock 2 disciplines of any level he can manifest from the Psion/Wilder lists. The unique powers per day are from powers on a discipline list or another list such as a mantle or class list. This class is considered one thing outside of non-core. I'm unlocking the class as my 1st level unlock.



OK, I'm not at all trying to disprove you, or browbeat you, or anything like that, but I'm really confused now.

The 40 (+lvl 1 int) powers that you automatically get to know must ALL come from the general psion/wilder list, so no Astral Construct, Energy Missile etc.

Additional powers committed to repertoire (by spending XP) may be psion/wilder powers, or they may be any discipline list power that is 1 level lower then your maximum power level known.  Technically there is nothing in the rules about learning Domain powers, but I would assume the would be treated like Discipline list powers.

A level 20 Erudite knows 40+ powers, but is only able to manifest 11 of those powers in a given day.  He may manifest any of those powers multiple times, but he cannot manifest all 40+ of his powers known.  This is supported by the Behind the Curtain sidebar on page 153, specifically where it says "an erudite is much more versatile at the beginning of an encounter then at the end."  This thread may explain it better then I can.

If all of this is what you meant, then just say 'yeah, that's what I meant'.  I'm particularly worried about the last point though, as many people (myself included) get confused about it.  It is nice to know that this is one of your non-core choices too.

P.S.: Are you planning on taking Temporal Acceleration?  Are you using Complete Psionic power errata?


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 16, 2006)

Tikiman said:
			
		

> It's a house rule no matter which way you go.  There are no rules for what happens when you manifest without displays other then you manifest without displays.  The closest analogy, casting without components, imposes a -10 to opponents spellcraft checks but is in every other way 100% identical to regular casting, including readied actions.  Also, the XPH specifically states that manifesting a power causes a "faraway gaze, the focus on something other then the material world, and the split-second of focus required to manifest a power."  You are 100% within your rights as DM to state that this is all it takes to set off a triggered action.  The ball has been in your court from day 1.  Now take that ball and hit your players squarely between the legs/eyes (as you see fit).




No kidding....



			
				Tikiman said:
			
		

> And I really feel the need to stick my nose into your business and give you a bit of advice about wildstarsreach's upcoming Erudite (sorry   ).  I would specifically like to call to attention the fact that you are 100% within your rights to deny him access to powers he tries to gain (except the 2/level he gets).  Right in the description of the Erudite it states "many [psions] jealousy guard their higher level powers and charge much more (or deny access to them altogether)".  This means that he can't just walk down to the local Psi-mart and pick up any power he wants to.  Additionally, you have to take into account that you're playing in an Ebberon setting.  There are almost no higher level casters in the world.




Nah...  I thought that the DM was suppose to give us everything and not make us have to work at it!!!!!



			
				Tikiman said:
			
		

> As evidence of this, I cite Sharn: City of Towers.  Sharn is one of the largest cities on the planet, and it has the biggest magical goods economy ("If it can be bought, it can be bought here").  On page 23 it states that "There are no resident NPCs in Sharn who can cast spells of 7th level or higher, and few who can cast 6th level spells...are unlikely to exchange their services for gold, dealing instead in favors and services.  As a general rule, characters can only purchase spells of 5th level or below.  Finding higher-level spells should be part of a quest or adventure."  And all of this applies to magic, which is insanely abundant in Eberron.  I can only guess that psionic materials would be more difficult to find.  This is six times more true for Discipline powers.




Naw....  Ourage of wyrms campaign is set in Eberron.



			
				Tikiman said:
			
		

> Now I'm not trying to tell you how to play your game, and I apologize if this comes off as bossy, but I really had to throw it out there.  wildstarsreach is going to metagame the system to make his character powerful, so I suggest you metagame his power access in return to keep him in line with the rest of the party.  He apparently refuses to balance himself in this regard.




I do?  How would you know with out having been to our game?  Is this a case of where direct knowledge necessary to make a judgement?



			
				Tikiman said:
			
		

> Couldn't you do us all a favor and beat him until he makes a character on par with the rest of the group?   I recommend Complete Psionic, as it's probably the only thing the book does properly.
> 
> 
> Though, actually, in your case it may be best to just apply this system to wildstarsreach only.




Tikiman,
     The Erudite is out of the Complete Psionic which unlocks the book and restrictions on the powers as recommended.  My god, could psionics possibly be imbalancing or are you being an ......................


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 16, 2006)

Tikiman said:
			
		

> OK, I'm not at all trying to disprove you, or browbeat you, or anything like that, but I'm really confused now.
> 
> The 40 (+lvl 1 int) powers that you automatically get to know must ALL come from the general psion/wilder list, so no Astral Construct, Energy Missile etc.
> 
> ...




Boy did I miss that.  I'll have to think about that.  TA, depends, we'll have to see.


----------



## Zimbel16 (Aug 16, 2006)

*Sarcasm*



			
				Tikiman said:
			
		

> Until then assume that I'm just being sarcastic.  If you don't want me to be sarcastic, say so and I'll give it a try (no promises though).



I should note that one problem with sarcasim is that it can be difficult to recognize, particuarly:
1) In a text only forum.
2) By someone whose first language isn't the one you are using.
Frankly, this is one of the issues that smilies are supposed to address. You might want to consider their use.


----------



## Zimbel16 (Aug 16, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> Nope, I was commenting on what the poster said.  Personally I think that is is worth between a 6th to 8th level power.  I think that 7th is probably the target.
> 
> 7 PP's to start, 3 additional PP's at 10th for 20 points and 13 PP's at 13th for 30 points against 5 different energy types for 10 mins/level.



My main problem with this power is that it freely doubles in power 2 CL after you obtain it. I have no problem with +3/augment; I just think that the increase should be paid for.


----------



## Zimbel16 (Aug 16, 2006)

Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> "Why Psionics is Broken, and what is needed to fix it"
> Psionics suffers from an inflexible concept of power knowledge, limiting the ability of the Psion to fill the 'problem-solver' role in the party normally required of D4 classes.
> 
> This stems from a number of factors:
> ...



Other than 4a (which I agree with), these are comments on the Psion class, not Psionics.

1) I'm unclear on this one- Psions do get a free feat at LV 1, so it looks like they are 1 feat down. I take your point, but I'd typically prefer 1 feat of choice to 2 "feats" that are chosen for me. In any case, I don't see a huge problem with front-loading the Psion a bit more.

2) Yes. Actually, I think that this is a problem with the XPH (essentially, that most of the weaker abilities will never see play, since any PC will use at most a tiny handful of powers/level). However, were I to give Psions more power, I'd limit it severely. How about:

Feat: With a concentration check (DC 25+ Power level), A Psion may concentrate for 1 minute to temporarily gain a single power. This power must be manifested at most once in the next hour, and for the purposes of manifesting this power, the Psion's Manifester Level is halved. If any other power is manifested prior to this one, the psion looses the ability to manifest this until used again. This ability may be used at most once/day.

As a side note, giving the above feat as a bonus feat at LV 1 would amiliorate your concern #1.

3) I'm afraid that I don't agree here. Autoscaling in a point-based system is nasty. Frankly, I'd more tend to take away (or severely limit) autoscaling for slot-based casters than give it to point-based casters.

4a) I agree. To counterbalance this, I'd give slot-based casters the effect of Heighten Spell for free.


----------



## Zimbel16 (Aug 16, 2006)

*PP limit per round*

Getting back to one of Thanee's points (Psions can cast many more highest-level equivalents than Slot-based casters), what do you think of the following as a solution?

Current rule: "The maximum number of points you can spend on a power (for any reason) is equal to your manifester level." - SRD

Alternate rule: "The maximum number of points you can spend on a power (for any reason) is equal to 90% of your manifester level, rounded up."

Now, at least at higher levels, a psion would be comparing their highest-level abilities with a somewat lower spell-level equivalent.

ML Max PP
1 1
2 2
3 3
4 4
5 5
6 6
7 7
8 8
9 9
10 9
11 10
12 11
13 12
14 13
15 14
16 15
17 16
18 17
19 18
20 18
21 19
22 20
23 21


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 16, 2006)

Zimbel16 said:
			
		

> Getting back to one of Thanee's points (Psions can cast many more highest-level equivalents than Slot-based casters), what do you think of the following as a solution?
> 
> Current rule: "The maximum number of points you can spend on a power (for any reason) is equal to your manifester level." - SRD
> 
> ...




They are in fact related to the Psion.. but then again, I've not noticed many people here to fix the Psychic Warrior or the Soulknife.

RE:  Concentration Check to gain powers:  Hmm... Id have to think about this.  Would kinda tilt the scale to combat nukers, because they could just roll-up those out of combat powers, whereas the out-of-combat power people (Seers, esp.) couldnt return the favour.  Also, DC starts way high, and gets way easy.  Maybe a lower number, plus 2X power level.

RE:  Autoscaling... I personally agree.  I think the right answer here might be some combination of 'per fight limits' on day/resource characters, or a 'points recover between fights' system with a much lower PsP total (and some sort of tax on your 'flat' PSPs for any effects you keep up).  Say that Hour/Day buffs cost 1/5 of their normal cost, but the points stay spent, and set 10min/lvl buffs at some higher cost (say 1/2 normal cost), points also stay gone as long as the power is up at the start of the fight.

Round buffs are of course going to be cast either in, or in anticipation of, combat, so they stay gone.

RE:  Lower max expenditures, slow power knowledge.... well, it would reduce the damage they do, and their overall power, pretty nicely, if thats what your after.


In Closing:  I think we need to be somewhat careful not to turn Psionics into Magic, here... not sure what the answer is, and perhaps its not suprising that what happens when people (be it me or you) complain about the differences as making the character too weak/strong, compared to Arcane, and try to fix it.. that we start turning it into Arcane magic.  

Tis a conundrum.


----------



## IcyCool (Aug 16, 2006)

Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> So your conceeding that outside pure, Core Arcane magic, as published, is superior to Psionics?




Not at all.  What I said (you can read it, because I said it specifically), was that I think it's a waste of time debating the balance of psionics vs. something I consider broken.  You don't balance off the extremes, you balance off the baseline and fix the extremes.

Perhaps you don't agree?



			
				Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> Mind you, -I- suggested complete+SRD as a generous compromise to the opposing position (because we both know who wins if its 'All of 3.5', and it aint you).  Generosity in debate has its limits, and thats mine.  Im contending that out of all of 3.5, I -only- need the SRD+Complete to pull off a decisive, non-debateable, not-even-interesting victory for the superiority of Arcane casting.




So, "I can win the arguement using the baseline you suggested, so I don't want to even debate it?"  I'm confused here.  I admit, it's only in my personal experience, but I haven't met anyone (or seen many people on these boards) who don't think the Orb spells from Complete Arcane are stupid/broken.  A non-magical Orb of Force?  C'mon.

I guess I'll have to come right out and ask:

Does your "soul-crushing" arguement depend on the Orb spells from Complete Arcane?  (If you need to include the full progression PrCs for the wizard, or some of the silly stuff from Complete Divine to "win", that's fine, I'll give that a shot.)



			
				Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> I'll reiterate a prior question, out of pure personal curiosity... Creationist or Evolutionist, which are you?




And I'll suggest you read the forum rules for an answer as to why we can't talk about that.

I'll answer you, but I won't be discussing it further on these boards.
[sblock]Evolutionist[/sblock]


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 16, 2006)

I just dont see how we can get anywhere in any sort of balance debate if you presuppose your ability to throw out anything you wish, by calling it 'Broken'.  Then we arent debating balance as between X and Y, but as between X and whatever you fell like Y is at the time.

Or are you strictly limiting your exclusionary principle to Orbs, such that I can safely rely on other things in my arguements, without you having access to a 'doesnt count, broken' whenever I say something you dislike?

You do, I hope, understand my reluctance to debate on the terms as they appear to be offered?

As for balancing off the baseline and fixing the extremes... agreed, wholeheartedly.  With that provisio, I will be honest:

1.)  I do not belive that any proof or arguement I submit will be in any fashion convincing to you. 

2.)  I belive that the only chance I have to ever carry the day in such a debate is to make the outcome as one sided as possible, because anything less will simply devolve into a debate about which differences have relatively greater value.

3.)  I am not comfortable with my ability, limited to core only, to decisively prove that Arcane is not just better, but so much better as to render the answer obvious.  Core only, I belive its pretty close.  Further, that would seem to require me to prove a negative 'Psionics is not Broken'.  I am much more comfortable proving a positive 'Arcane can do many things better than Psionics'

4.)  As, again, we are both well aware of the impact of the baseline assumptions on the character of debate, you will pardon me if I question the purity of your motives, when those pure motives also, purely by happenstance, lead to the set of baseline assumptions that most favour your position and most hinder mine.


----------



## IcyCool (Aug 16, 2006)

Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> Or are you strictly limiting your exclusionary principle to Orbs, such that I can safely rely on other things in my arguements, without you having access to a 'doesnt count, broken' whenever I say something you dislike?




Since you refuse to discuss based on just the Core, yes.  I'll give a shot at discussing Core+Complete with the just exclusion of the Orb spells.  I'm probably forgetting something else I consider broken, but what the hell, I like to argue.



			
				Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> You do, I hope, understand my reluctance to debate on the terms as they appear to be offered?




Reluctance to debate on the terms of just core?  No, I don't understand it at all.

Reluctance to try and hit a moving target?  Yes, which is why I've agreed to exclude just the orbs.

I'd wager that you understand why I think using the Complete books is probably an exercise in futility (though I suppose it's remotely possible you think the Complete books are completely fair and balanced?).



			
				Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> As for balancing off the baseline and fixing the extremes... agreed, wholeheartedly.  With that provisio, I will be honest:
> 
> 1.)  I do not belive that any proof or arguement I submit will be in any fashion convincing to you.




You'll note that I've not outlawed Psionics in my game.  I'm well aware that different != better.  Thus far, I have seen a very powerful showing from a wilder. I'm also not coming into this with the default mindset of "Psionics is broken".



			
				Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> 3.)  I am not comfortable with my ability, limited to core only, to decisively prove that Arcane is not just better, but so much better as to render the answer obvious.  Core only, I belive its pretty close.  Further, that would seem to require me to prove a negative 'Psionics is not Broken'.  I am much more comfortable proving a positive 'Arcane can do many things better than Psionics'




I'm interested in seeing just how "equal" psioncs and arcane are.  I'm not interested in "Psionics is broken" or "Arcane is broken".  If, in the pursuit of equality, Psionics shows itself to be obviously weaker, or obviously stronger, I think the answers to broken questions will become evident.



			
				Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> 4.)  As, again, we are both well aware of the impact of the baseline assumptions on the character of debate, you will pardon me if I question the purity of your motives, when those pure motives also, purely by happenstance, lead to the set of baseline assumptions that most favour your position and most hinder mine.




No offence, but if you feel that a Core only comparison is a hinderance to you, then a debate would be a waste of my time.  Regardless, I'll give a shot to discussing Core + Complete - the Orb Spells (which I think are obviously broken and which, in my opinion, make Arcane casters over the top).

I rather suspect that if we were to debate on a Core basis only, we'd find that the real issue lies in a small subset of spells and powers, and not with the base classes themselves.


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 16, 2006)

IcyCool said:
			
		

> Since you refuse to discuss based on just the Core, yes.  I'll give a shot at discussing Core+Complete with the just exclusion of the Orb spells.  I'm probably forgetting something else I consider broken, but what the hell, I like to argue.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You know, I was ready to paint you with the broad brush there for just a little bit, but the last comment really rings a bell.
(And no, I dont begin to think the Complete books are completely fair and balanced.. but then again, I dont think Core is, either.)
I agree.  Completely.

Things that cause real problems:
1.) Anything that gives more/extra actions
2.) Shapechange, or any of its cousins.
3.) Anything that denies a save, while still having a winning, or near-winning, effect.
4.) Gate
5.) Lotsa stuff I forgot.

Once we peel back those things, what weve got is..
1.)  Psions are more on-the-fly flexible, Wizards are more absolutely flexible.
2.)  Psions do Direct Damage better.  Wizards do board control better.
3.)  Psions self-buff better.  Wizards do other-buff better.
4.)  Psions self-defend primarily via extra HP and AC type effects, with some nod to some decent swift-action effects.  Wizards self defend via avoidance and mitigation type effects.  The Wizards defenses tend to be more absolute in nature, but require more setup time.
5.)  A purpose built psion, core only, frequently meets or exceeds the ability of a wizard to accomplish that core purpose (especially if its in line with the "Psion Strengths", above.. Im less sure belive a purpose built Psion board-controller would match a wizardly counterpart).  However, the Wizard will generally out-perform the Psion at things the Psion is not built for.
6.)  The relative abilty of each to shine will be closely tied to the amount of encounters per day (more favours the Wizard, though eventually both run out) the freedom of action available to the players (again, more favours the Wizard, whereas in tighter games, the Psion shines), and similar to the last, the amount of information available to the players (For obvious reasons)
6a.)  The ability of the Psion to still shine, even when the GM is restricting player freedom of choice, information gathering, and even when the GM is throwing high-CR but not fully thought out encounters at them (The classic CR+5 single-encounter one-bad-guy day) probably contributes alot to the perceptions of psionics.. it is exactly the GMs who feel the most need to keep their players and game tightly under control (for reasons good or ill, its  a difference of style) who will see the most difference in performance between the Psion and the Wizard.  It is also such GMs who are most likely to respond poorly when a PC exhibits behaviour outside of the GMs expectations.
7.)  Given all of the above, and purely in my experience playing a Kineticist in the company of a Wizard, the two complement each other in a single party, with the Arcanist providing problem-solving and board control, and the Psion providing focused combat power and flexibility in the form of what utility powers the Psion DOES know (and thus, the Wizard need never memorize).  If I had to only have one, in a purely-numbers-crunchy game, my choice would depend, I belive, on the composition of the rest of the party and the nature of the game (relative to issues in '6', above).
8.)  When performing at his best, the Wizard makes the whole party shine, while appearing to do very little (at least in terms of damage or death), until the Wizard SoDs a given foe (doing X damage, where X is the targets HPs).  The latter is percieved as fairly normal by D+D players "Yup, he failed his save.  Happens."  When performing at his best, the Psion (at least the most-reviled flavours, the Construct-Creators and the Energy-Throwers) tend to shine themselves, while sharing little light with the rest of the party.  Their actual in-game impact will be the same, but they can make the rest of the party feel as if their contributions are not meaningful.  And when it comes time to blow away the BBEG... for reasons unknown (though I am guilty of this myself) the ability to make a bad guy with 300 hit points fail a save or die half the time (rounds to kill=2) is percieved as much less useful than the ability to blow away half the bad guys HPs in a round (rounds to kill=2).


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 16, 2006)

Random Thought on Character Balance:
1.)  The real issue of balance is one of actual play, at actual tables.
2.)  Thus, balance is an issue between actual characters in play at those tables.
3.)  A version of almost any character concept can be built (given sufficient materials) that will perform beyond the level allowed at any table I have ever played at.

If you accept all of the above, the question becomes.
1.)  What is the target-point of character balance/character power in this game?  Are we looking at 'My character is tough, so Ill take Toughness'?  Are we looking at 'Complete Divine Cleric Archer or attendant CoDzilla build'?
2.)  Once we know what our performance target is, can we allow each player to play a character that fits his concept, that is in line with that performance target?
3.)  Can we trust our players not to exceed that performance target by a significant margin?

I know I'm pushing this from Player-vs-Environment balancing to Cooperative-Storytelling-In-character-Creation, and I dont mean to duck out of our ongoing conversation... but this came to me last night as I was discussing balance and Psions with the arcanist in our play group, and I didnt want to see it lost.


----------



## takasi (Aug 16, 2006)

Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> I just dont see how we can get anywhere in any sort of balance debate if you presuppose your ability to throw out anything you wish, by calling it 'Broken'.  Then we arent debating balance as between X and Y, but as between X and whatever you fell like Y is at the time.




Just wanted to add that this is the same logic as rejecting comparisons to core material because it is "underpowered".

Personally I find it much better to compare supplement to supplement instead of class vs class.  I think it would be more rational to compare various builds based on options from book x vs options from book y.


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 16, 2006)

takasi said:
			
		

> Just wanted to add that this is the same logic as rejecting comparisons to core material because it is "underpowered".
> 
> Personally I find it much better to compare supplement to supplement instead of class vs class.  I think it would be more rational to compare various builds based on options from book x vs options from book y.




You are mischaracterizing my statement.  I suggested that I preferred not to do core only in a debate context, as I felt that doing so would be choosing the debate context that was most favourable to the opposing position.  I suggested Core+Complete as a middle ground.

While it might well be enlightening to do comparisons based on Core+X, then Core+Y, then Core+X+Y, etc., doing so exhaustively would be a full time job.

P.S.:  I wonder if wed been better served to have a debate thread and a discussion thread, rather than doing both in the same thread.  I'm having trouble keeping track of which rules I'm supposed to be operating under at any given point.


----------



## Tikiman (Aug 16, 2006)

Zimbel16 said:
			
		

> I should note that one problem with sarcasim is that it can be difficult to recognize...  Frankly, this is one of the issues that smilies are supposed to address. You might want to consider their use.



 I tried that here;


			
				Tikiman said:
			
		

> Couldn't you do us all a favor and beat him until he makes a character on par with the rest of the group?     I recommend Complete Psionic, as it's probably the only thing the book does properly.
> 
> Though, actually, in your case it may be best to just apply this system to wildstarsreach only.



 and got the response;


			
				wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> The Erudite is out of the Complete Psionic which unlocks the book and restrictions on the powers as recommended. My god, could psionics possibly be imbalancing or are you being an ......................



 So when I do use smileys, even when talking to someone else, it is still taken as a direct assult on him. :\ 




			
				wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> I do? How would you know with out having been to our game? Is this a case of where direct knowledge necessary to make a judgement?



Actually, you provided direct evidence for this assumption in the following;


			
				wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> I intend to run a human Erudite whom I think is potentially more broken...
> 
> I sit and make a character every level for replacement who is a straight Psion every level in case the DM does kills the character. The character would be 90% or the current character.
> 
> ...



  And I've got 5 pages to go if you want more.



			
				wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> Boy did I miss that. I'll have to think about that.



I really can't wait to see the outcome of this.


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 16, 2006)

Is the psionic part of the feat(s) psionic shot/weapon subject to power resistance.  I haven't found any but My memory isn't what is was 20 years ago.


----------



## Frylock (Aug 17, 2006)

*Yes, They're Broken*

There's one thing relevant to this discussion that my undergraduate degree in Physics taught me: theory is just theory; if reality says differently, then you must change your theory.  Psionics are broken.  Anyone who claims not to see that has his head in the sand.  You can throw out any "logical" and mathematical arguments as to why psionics is balanced, but when there's a psionicist at the table, he's doing more damage and than even the warmage (see my home game for an example  ) and his Call to Mind (XPH, page 82) makes him just as valuable outside combat.  Do you think it's a coincidence that power gamers are attracted to psionics?  They know that their characters will be the most powerful at the table.  

Now it's a matter of figuring out how to fix psionics, which I'd really like to do being that I like my players to have any character concept they want.  I'd prefer a simpler route than many of you have provided, and I have a suggestion, but I'm not a power gamer, so I don't have the precise mathematical answer.

The problem appears to be (IMHO) that a psionicist is able to increase his "spell slot" without any real consequences.  That is, I've never seen a psionicist run out of power points.  Although they always complain about not having enough, when they're complaining, they're at about 50% max, which to a power gamer is a horrifying thought.  If a psionicist is constantly augmenting but the extra cost doesn't have the consequence of taking him out of future encounters (or skill checks, etc.), then the system is broken.  Can anyone (other than a power gamer that thinks 50% PP = 0 PP) really say that this hasn't been their experience with psionics?

So, my suggestion is to adjust the augmentations so that psionicists and spell casters are running out of "spells" at about the same time.  Does that mean adding 1 to the augmentation formula, doubling the augmentation formula, or what?  I don't know, but I'm guessing one of you guys/gals is willing to do the math.  Go to, for example, Force Screen, XPH, page 108.  Augmentation: for every 4 additional PP, the AC improves by 1.  Instead, we could say "for every 8 additional PP" (PP x 2) or "for every 5 additional PP" (PP + 1).

Maybe there's a slightly more complicated formula that would be better.  For example, PP + 1 for powers of a certain type, and PP x 2 for powers of another type.  Of course, these are just examples.  Maybe the answer is PP x 8, for all I know (although I doubt it's that high).

Granted, this solution won't balance each power as well as the suggestions above, and a uniform formula might actually make certain powers useless, but it wouldn't take a doctoral thesis to address.


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 17, 2006)

Frylock said:
			
		

> There's one thing relevant to this discussion that my undergraduate degree in Physics taught me: theory is just theory; if reality says differently, then you must change your theory.  Psionics are broken.  Anyone who claims not to see that has his head in the sand.  You can throw out any "logical" and mathematical arguments as to why psionics is balanced, but when there's a psionicist at the table, he's doing more damage and than even the warmage (see my home game for an example  ) and his Call to Mind (XPH, page 82) makes him just as valuable outside combat.  Do you think it's a coincidence that power gamers are attracted to psionics?  They know that their characters will be the most powerful at the table.
> 
> Now it's a matter of figuring out how to fix psionics, which I'd really like to do being that I like my players to have any character concept they want.  I'd prefer a simpler route than many of you have provided, and I have a suggestion, but I'm not a power gamer, so I don't have the precise mathematical answer.
> 
> ...




Objection.  Assuming facts not in evidence.
I deny your anecdotes, and substitute my own!

-aside to Tikiman-  I've been playing Good Cop.  This one seems to require Bad Cop, you want it?


----------



## Nifft (Aug 17, 2006)

Frylock said:
			
		

> There's one thing relevant to this discussion that my undergraduate degree in Physics taught me [...] I don't know, but I'm guessing one of you guys/gals is willing to do the math.




I've heard math is a key ingredient to physics.

Why don't you help us do the math?

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Frylock (Aug 17, 2006)

Ignore this.  Accidental duplicate post.  I suck.


----------



## Frylock (Aug 17, 2006)

*Math*



			
				Nifft said:
			
		

> I've heard math is a key ingredient to physics.  Why don't you help us do the math?  Cheers,




Dude, I graduated in 1992.  I'm lucky I can still add.


----------



## Frylock (Aug 17, 2006)

*Bad Power Cop*



			
				Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> Objection.  Assuming facts not in evidence.
> I deny your anecdotes, and substitute my own!
> 
> -aside to Tikiman-  I've been playing Good Cop.  This one seems to require Bad Cop, you want it?




Uh-oh.  A threat of bad cop?  It looks like I offended a power gamer.


----------



## Tikiman (Aug 17, 2006)

Marcus Smythe said:
			
		

> -aside to Tikiman- I've been playing Good Cop. This one seems to require Bad Cop, you want it?



Mwa ha ha ha.  Actually, I already know what this guy's problem is, and the solution has been posted on this forum ad nausium.



			
				Frylock said:
			
		

> That is, I've never seen a psionicist run out of power points.



This is your entire problem, top to bottom, front to back, inside and out.  This is either the DM's fault, or it's the Player's fault.  Most likely your DM simply isn't throwing the DMG recommended 3-4 encounters at you per day.  This is a very common occurrence.  Now it's not your DM's fault if he doesn't have the ability to put 3-4 in, but it's also not Psionics fault that the game designers built it on a multiple encounter per day system.  Arcane and Divine magic have the same problem, psionics just does it better.

The solution I would suggest is to limit the Psion to 20% of his total PP pool per encounter, adding 10% for every CR the encounter is above the party (so party level 3 + CR 5 = 40%, roughly 7pp).  That way your psions ALWAYS run out of PP in an encounter.  That running out is what keeps the psionics system in check.  Your DM can just write the % (or # of PP) on a scrap of paper and hand it to the psion at the start of a fight, or whenever the situation needs adjusting (extra mobs show up, the group thief turns on you, etc).

Arcane/Divine casters should be limited in a similar way.  For every 20% let them use 1 spell of their highest 2 levels, and 2 spells of the next two highest levels.  If you have an odd % (like 30%) give them an additional spell at their second and fourth highest slot.  So a level 10 mage in a CR 11 encounter (30%) would get 1 level 5 spell, 2 level 4 spells, 2 level 3 spells, and 3 level 2 spells.  He could use as many 1st and 0th as he wanted.  (note that this is a rough rule of thumb system, feel free to experiment with it).

If your DM tries to give you 3-4 encounters, but your party doesn't let him (they run away/rope trick/etc) then the fault rests with the players.  I can't really help you with that, nor will any amount of fixing the rules help with that (they'll simply move to something else that's overpowered, and anything in D&D can be made overpowered, even bards).  I'd suggest telling your DM to flex his [evil] side and do things you just can't get away from (like ambushing you, locking the door behind you, nobody will deal with you cuz you're cowards, etc).  Basically, if the players won't take the offensive and instead pick away encounter by encounter, then the mobs need to take the offensive and hunt the players down.

Also, for those who think that people gravitate towards psionics because it's powerful, have you ever taken a look at the druid or the cleric?  I don't think I've met anyone who doesn't think these are clearly the two most powerful classes in the game (psion and wizard sometimes tie, but practically never exceed them).  Have you ever seen 5 bears (maximized[rod] summons) with Animal Growth cast on them?  And the Druid shifts into an Animal Growthed form as well?  If you haven't, you've never actually seen overpowered.  Despite this, not every powergamer plays these classes.  Oh, and if you don't think Druids are the king of the crop, I suggest this poll, or visiting the WotC Character Optimization board (where they try to find every way possible to break the system).  The CO boards regularly play with clerics, druids, wizards, etc, but normally don't toy with psion or sorcerer.  Maybe these two classes are just too much for the people who invented the infinite everything Pun-Pun.  

Oh, and any 'balance' debate past level 15 is just plain retarded.  All casters, psion included, are capable of doing ridiculously stupid stuff at those levels.  Trying to balance D&D past level 15 is like trying to fit an entire kindergarten class into a phone booth.  It's just a bloody mess.  



			
				Frylock said:
			
		

> Uh-oh. A threat of bad cop? It looks like I offended a power gamer.



Min/maxer actually.  I like being given very little to work with and do my best with it (favorite class: PsiWar).  I regularly play core-only characters in campaigns that allow non-core material.  My goal in every campaign is to be the most powerful character, but only by a little bit.  I have yet to have any DM complain about my power level.  In fact, any group that knows me will sick me on powergamers.  This is why I'm the 'bad-cop'; I have no problem telling people what their actual problem is.  I've had enough experience in life to realize that I am in fact better at spotting problems then the average joe, so I get blunt about it.  In exchange for this ability I simply can't do anything with horror.  To me horror is just, well, silly.


----------



## Bacris (Aug 17, 2006)

Frylock said:
			
		

> The problem appears to be (IMHO) that a psionicist is able to increase his "spell slot" without any real consequences.  That is, I've never seen a psionicist run out of power points.  Although they always complain about not having enough, when they're complaining, they're at about 50% max, which to a power gamer is a horrifying thought.  If a psionicist is constantly augmenting but the extra cost doesn't have the consequence of taking him out of future encounters (or skill checks, etc.), then the system is broken.  Can anyone (other than a power gamer that thinks 50% PP = 0 PP) really say that this hasn't been their experience with psionics?




That's funny, I've played 4 psionic characters across 3 different DM's, from level 1 to level 26 (yes, 26).  I've always had problems keeping enough power points, and my group always managed to stay relatively close in powerscale, and that's including a pure fighter, paladin, and a bard...  Now, given that this is with 3 DIFFERENT DM's, I have to say that either I've been very lucky with DMs (possible), or your just have a crappy DM when it comes to handling psionics (also possible).

So I disagree with your "psionics is broken, that's a fact" and say that it's very much dependent on player, DM, and group.


----------



## Tikiman (Aug 17, 2006)

The other reason I'm the 'bad cop' is that I'm an 'implacable foe'.  I like to address each and every point raised by someone, in detail, and I won't let anything slide.  People often get mad when I read what they wrote better then they did.  Why do I do this?  Because I'm a teacher and I like giving other people grades.  So excuse me while I enjoy myself at your expense.



			
				Frylock said:
			
		

> Psionics are broken. Anyone who claims not to see that has his head in the sand.



Broken compared to what?  Compared to a fighter?  Oh heck yeah.  Lots of things are broken compared to them, psions included.  Broken compared to a wizard is the usual debate though, and that's a bigger problem.  I can provide a wizard build that can do 73k damage in a single round (or 2k damage as a swift action).  Can you make a psion do that?  

Does that mean that all wizards are broken?  No, it just means that with sufficient non-core material you can make stuff that can blow up the planet (oddly enough, fighters were the first to achieve this with the Hulking Hurler).  It also means that there are broken abilities out there.  Avoid the broken abilities (like Temporal Acceleration and Time Stop) and you'll avoid broken characters.  I find it rather stupid that people think they should be able to do anything they want with the rules and then blame the game designers for not providing them with a perfect system that meets their exact needs.  Powergamers are going to make broken stuff.  That's why we call them powergamers.



			
				Frylock said:
			
		

> You can throw out any "logical" and mathematical arguments as to why psionics is balanced, but when there's a psionicist at the table, he's doing more damage and than even the warmage (see my home game for an example)



So, let me get this right.  Personal anecdotal evidence outweighs logical debate?  Anyone who says that is stupid and has their head in the sand.  

More importantly though, the psion is capable of outdoing the warmage on a per round damage scale (blasting is something psions do better, but they give up say Illusion for it).  But in a per day scale he gets left in the dust.  Again, it's not the psions fault he was balanced on a 4/day system, it's your DM's fault for not following the guidelines in the DMG.  One encounter per day is a 'house rule', and a pretty lame one at that.  Its almost as bad as only throwing a single monster at the players in an encounter.  4 actions/round trumps 1 action/round hardcore.



			
				Frylock said:
			
		

> and his Call to Mind (XPH, page 82) makes him just as valuable outside combat.



Wow, knowledge checks are the only thing useful outside of combat?  I guess wizards can stop memorizing Invisibility (the psionic version blows, single target will save system), Fly (5/6 of psions have to spend a feat), Summons (5/6 of psions have to spend a feat), Teleport (5/6 of psions have to spend a feat), Charm (5/6 of psions have to spend a feat), Polymorph (5/6 of psions have to spend a feat), Scrying (5/6 of psions have to spend a feat), Fabricate (5/6 of psions have to spend a feat), Detect Thoughts (5/6 of psions have to spend a feat), and other such useless abilities.  I wonder why I even wanted those pointless spells in the first place.  


@ Bacris: I'm not posting on the WotC forums cuz I currently hate them (Complete Psionics), but I'd like to say I love Untapped Potential.  I paid $5 for a copy and am loving the Half-Giant material, the Phenotype Impressionist, and the Psicrystal Binder.  One of my friends loves the Society Mind.  Keep up the good work.

Oh, and if I've got the wrong Bacris, just ignore this.


----------



## Bacris (Aug 17, 2006)

Tikiman said:
			
		

> @ Bacris: I'm not posting on the WotC forums cuz I currently hate them (Complete Psionics), but I'd like to say I love Untapped Potential.  I paid $5 for a copy and am loving the Half-Giant material, the Phenotype Impressionist, and the Psicrystal Binder.  One of my friends loves the Society Mind.  Keep up the good work.
> 
> Oh, and if I've got the wrong Bacris, just ignore this.




Same Bacris   And glad to hear it!

You are aware that Untapped Potential is essentially "The Real Complete Psionic", right?    We're hoping to increase the number of PrC's in the final version by 1 or 2 and I'm also currently working on playing a Psicrystal Imprinter myself (only level 4, so almost there)... it and the Enlightened PrCs are my favorites.  And the Energist


----------



## Frylock (Aug 17, 2006)

Thanks for your response.  However, I said you had your head in the sand, whereas you said I have my head in the sand **and** am stupid.  Technically, you've started a fight, so I must respond.

I hate you.

Moving on . . .



			
				Tikiman said:
			
		

> Most likely your DM simply isn't throwing the DMG recommended 3-4 encounters at you per day.  This is a very common occurrence. . . .  Arcane and Divine magic have the same problem, psionics just does it better. [\QUOTE=Tikiman]
> 
> This is a good point, and its been raised to me by one of my players as a possible solution.  I'm building the next session around the premise that the psionsist will run out of PP if I do this.  If it doesn't work, I'll be back.
> 
> ...


----------



## Tsuul (Aug 17, 2006)

Frylock, if Call to Mind is coming up as a power house of a power then perhaps a second reading is in order. All it does is help A.D.D.  players remember things the DM has already told them. Or if the DM knows the player has the power, he can use it to reveal clues later in a session that would otherwise tip the player off too early if the DM actualy mentions them in real time.


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 17, 2006)

Frylock... while I'm feeding you to the not nice poster (me, myself, being the nice guy)... im curious about a few things..

1.)  Whose tracking that Psions PSPs?  If hes fully augmenting every round, and the Warmage is casting every round, and the Warmage runs out of spells before the Psion runs out of PsPs (assuming both same level, same gear, blah blah freakin blah)... well, I dont buy it.  
Now, if the Psion isnt full manifesting every round, but is instead throwing a bunch of lower cost powers to preserve PsPs... then theres no reason for his impact to be so much higher.

I suspect we have a situation not unlike the OPs, where we have a well built psion and the 'skill focus-basketweaving' rest of the party.

2.)  "The Psions are so much more powerful than clerics/druids at that level"
   
I am... wow.  Just wow.  With a side of 'Your kidding, right?'
In the war between 15d6 Energy Rays and a Crash (that is to my recollection the technical term) of Animal Growthed Dire Bears... including the Animal Companion and the Druid herself for kicks...

You know that whole stupid civil war sig thing?  Well, in this Civil War, I'm with the Crash of Freaking Buffed Dire Bears.    They said theyd come get me if I wasnt.    And I'll run out of PSPs long before the Druid runs out of bears   

3.)  As regards anecdotal evidence.. true, its grounded in experiment.  I know.. lets get a group of the best number-crunchers in the history of D+D together, and tell them, with their knowledge of the system, to break it, and boil down what they consider the best-worst parts of D+D, as far as impact-to-effort.  The folks who have no higher alliegance than to sheer IC power, and who consider Anthropomorphic Baleen Hulking Hurlers and Hydra-Dervishes multiattacking with Mouthpick Scimitars to be nothing more than tools to the end of breaking the game.
And lets give them all the books in the game to break, and see what they come up with, see what their best toys are, and what their basic appraisal of how-to-win-at-D+D is.

That sounds like a great experiment.  Shall we run it, and see whether our observations tend to support or disprove the "Psionics-is-broken" hypothesis?


----------



## Someone (Aug 17, 2006)

Allow me to second that thought that if the psion is fully augmenting his direct damage powers and is dealing more damage than the warmage and outlasts him, there´s something quite strange going on.

If we´re throwing personal accounts into play, a psion doesn´t usually throw so many high level powers every day. Most of the time it´s a mixture of high level, lower level but augmented because of the not-free-scaling thing, utility, and lower level powers. Even then they have to be careful not to spend too many PPs in one cmbat, unless he´s positive that there´ll be only one combat before resting (for example, a wilderness encounter just before going to sleep). Frankly, the concerns of several posters here (too many high level powers being thrown around, etc) strike me as theoretical, since except some cases the psions performance isn´t that different from  other casters.

The exceptions, though, almost always have something to do with Temporal Acceleration.

Also, actual psions tend to be rather one sided. Given the nature of disciplines they tend to be themed and do one thing very well, and the rest not so well, unless they spend many feats on Expanded Knowledge and neglecting things like overchannel/talented, psychic meditation, and metapsionic feats.


----------



## Tikiman (Aug 17, 2006)

Frylock said:
			
		

> Thanks for your response. However, I said you had your head in the sand, whereas you said I have my head in the sand *and* am stupid. Technically, you've started a fight, so I must respond.



Yeah, but my insult had a smiley face at the end of it, so YOU started the fight. 



			
				Frylock said:
			
		

> I hate you.



I'm telling mom!



			
				Frylock said:
			
		

> This is a good point, and its been raised to me by one of my players as a possible solution. I'm building the next session around the premise that the psionsist will run out of PP if I do this. If it doesn't work, I'll be back.



Well, it looks like you're on the road to fixing your own problem (yay), so now lets see how we can help.  How exactly will you be running the psion out of PP?  Have you seen the Psychic Vampire power? (XPH pg 127)



			
				Frylock said:
			
		

> This I don't like. It just rubs me the wrong way. I'd rather that my encounters as a whole wear them down. In any case, I wouldn't add a rule like this mid-campaign, so for now it isn't an option anyway. (I'm not trying to discourage suggestions, though.)



Hmm, about the only other way to deplete the characters in one encounter is to throw a CR+7 encounter at them, and have that encounter contain loads of equal CR critters (not 2-3 big ones).  But this is basically smashing 3-4 encounters into a single one so...

I've got plenty of other suggestions you can take or toss though.  You could hit the Psion with a nightmare type spells just before an important battle.  The spell prevents him resting properly so he can't regain his PP (its in one of these darn books).  Or you could implement a houserule where if you manifest at your maximum manifester level you suffer a -2 manifester penalty for 1 round.  At the *end* of his next turn this penalty goes away.  If, in the next round, you manifest at your new highest manifester level (2 lower then before), the penalty stays and you get another -2.  As soon as you stop manifesting at max power this penalty goes away at a rate of 2/round.  The same system would work for casters, just lower them 1 spell level each time they cast their highest.

My favorite suggestion though would be to simply sit down with the character and have a good long talk (which should involve hitting him with various D&D books).  Tell him that's he's being a jerk and hogging the spotlight.  Ask him to tone it down so everyone else can have fun too.  Remember to cast Eagles Splendor on yourself first for that +2 to diplomacy checks.  And intimidate.  

Oh, and another thing to add, you could try out these house-rules in 'side games'.  Like, lets say you know someone can't show up for the next session.  Instead of gaming without them, you could take all the present characters and run them through an imaginary side encounter.  Use the house rules in those encounters to test drive them.  And if anyone wants to play something totally wacky, let them give it a try.  Just make sure the Psion gets played, and that he has an appropriately built caster to compare to.



			
				Frylock said:
			
		

> I can help myself with that. When they come out of the rope trick, they'll be a spellwarped, advanced 36 HD dire bear waiting for them. If they go back in, there'll be two of them waiting for them when they come out.



Of for the love of all things sentient, not another rope trick cheese group.  Where do you people find these losers?  How is crawling into an extradimensional space and hiding until you're overpowered again heroic?  Two things I'd like to point out.  1) Your psion is overpowered due to a wizard spell (*stares meaningfully at the OP*).  2) Rope Trick is often touted as the most broken spell in the PHB.  There's an entire thread of ways to deal with it though, but my suggestion would be to simply ban the spell (changing the duration to 10min/level would also work).  It basically does what higher level spells try to do (Tiny Hut, Secure Shelter, Magnificent Mansion), only much better.

And another great tactic for dealing with Rope Trick is a Transdimensional Fireball (Complete Arcane, +1 spell slot, affects incorporeal, ethereal, Shadown, and creatures in extradimensional spaces).  Don't forget the maniacal laughter too.  



			
				Frylock said:
			
		

> In short, I don't think you've provided a solution to the problem.



I did too provide a solution.  You just didn't like it.  So  



			
				Frylock said:
			
		

> If I throw out more unavoidable encounters, eventually the psionicists will run out of PP, but the warmage and (to a lesser extent) the cleric will feel useless becuase they'll run out of spells long before the psionicists run out of PP.



I would like to fervently add my voice to the chorus saying that something is very wrong here.  I will completely agree with the idea that a Psion can outdo a Warmage on a /round basis, but there should be no way in the nine hells he can keep it up for longer.  At level 10 he should be throwing out 10d6+10 powers for about 11 rounds.  The Warmage would be able to do 10d6 for 15 rounds, followed by 14 rounds of level 1 and 2 spells.  And this doesn't take into account his Sudden Empower, which should let him do 15d6 once a day.

Check just how many PP your psion actually has and is using.  Keep track of every power he uses and the PP required to do it for a couple encounters.  I'm not saying your character is cheating, but I'm certainly thinking it very loudly.  And don't forget that powers don't scale for free, so a 7pp Energy Ball only does 7d6+7 damage.



			
				Frylock said:
			
		

> One last point: one piece of anecdotal evidence by itself doesn't make a scientific study, but it has two advantages over a theory: 1) it's based in reality, and 2) it has plenty of company (i.e., there's a lot more than one piece of said evidence floating around).



Neither anecdotal evidence nor theory can actually prove anything.  It's only when you combine the two that you get close to the truth.  And I provided you with a link to a poll of anecdotal evidence about how powerful people thought classes were.  On a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being most powerful) Druid got a 9.4, Cleric and Wizard got 8.6, and the Psion got 8.1.  Between this and the fact that 'psionics are overpowered' debates have never been resolved, I think the evidence suggests that some sort of balance is in place here.  In my opinion, all casters are broken, and you just have to pick out the bad parts (like Rope Trick, Temporal Acceleration, Timestop, etc).

And thank you very much for approaching this with a sense of humor.  It makes things so much easier when you don't have to carefully pick every little word you use for fear the other side will turn it into an attack.  And I can finally use sarcasm.  Woot!

Oh, and when quoting, don't put =name in the second quote block and use /, not \ (so you should have [/QUOTE] at the end).


----------



## Frylock (Aug 17, 2006)

*Focus, People!*



			
				Tsuul said:
			
		

> Frylock, if Call to Mind is coming up as a power house of a power then perhaps a second reading is in order. All it does is help A.D.D.  players remember things the DM has already told them. Or if the DM knows the player has the power, he can use it to reveal clues later in a session that would otherwise tip the player off too early if the DM actualy mentions them in real time.




Oh good lord.  C'mon guys; stay focused.  Call to Mind was an example off the top of my head that shows that even a kineticist can do more than just blow up things.  At least a warmage can't do any more than explode kobolds.  He has limited skills, and his spells and class features serve that purpose (and yes, I know there are a few exceptions).  A psion does its overpowered thing in all aspects of the game.  Call to Mind is a constant reminder of this fact.

BTW, you've misstated the use of Call to Mind.  It has nothing to do with what a DM has told you before.  You use it to re-roll your failed knowledge checks on the spot.  See XPH, page 82.


----------



## Frylock (Aug 17, 2006)

Bacris said:
			
		

> I've played 4 psionic characters across 3 different DM's, from level 1 to level 26 (yes, 26).  I've always had problems keeping enough power points, and my group always managed to stay relatively close in powerscale, and that's including a pure fighter, paladin, and a bard...  Now, given that this is with 3 DIFFERENT DM's, I have to say that either I've been very lucky with DMs (possible), or your just have a crappy DM when it comes to handling psionics (also possible).
> 
> So I disagree with your "psionics is broken, that's a fact" and say that it's very much dependent on player, DM, and group.




Were there any house rules that affected psionics adversely?  Were you the only "caster"?  If anything, I suspect you had a really good DM who knew how to handle psionics and adjusted the encounters accordingly.  Other than me, most DMs that allow it have a lot of experience with it.  The overwhelming evidence, though, seems to be that psionicists are broken, with characters wielding way too much power, unless steps are taken to weaken it.

Maybe the cause-and-effect is backwards.  Power gamers are often attracted to psionics (for whatever reason), and therefore the psionic characters are more powerful.  If you're not a pure power gamer, but instead make some decisions based on flavor and role-play, then maybe your psionicists aren't overpowered.

Of course, either way I have a problem, balancing encounters between power gamers and flavorites (huh?), but that's for another thread.


----------



## Tsuul (Aug 18, 2006)

> C'mon guys; stay focused.



I guess I read more into what were saying about Call to Mind then what was intended. The point being made wasn't obvious.

Power gamers are often attracted to Psionics because of the scaling DCs. By scaling the DCs it makes damage a viable kill tactic for more levels then it's arcane counterpart.

If not going the damage route, then they are probably going the self buffing route, which again is strong, but essentialy flawed in a group dynamic where a buffed fighter would be stronger then a buffed caster. But nothing compares to clerics in this reguard.

From what I gather Save or Die psionics don't have scaling DCs and fall in direct comparision with arcane/divine for its life expectancy as a viable tactic. But psionics have less in general.

I had a level 12-14ish wizard one shot a CR 16-18 vampire with a save or die (Halt Undead IIRC). Odds were against the wizard for each cast, but mathematicaly, he would have taken the vamp down before any nukers would have. And the nukers would have just caused said vamp to go gaseous and escape (for a second time). I don't think psionics can even match that.


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 18, 2006)

I've looked in the Player's Handbook II and the Complete Psionic.

I'm looking for where in the PHB II a sorcerer can sacrifice getting a familiar and get metamagic that doesn't make their spells take longer.

I've looked through the CPSY for references about temporal acceleration.  

Could you provide the specific pages that were mentioned in previous posts.


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 18, 2006)

Taraxia said:
			
		

> Er, no. Unless you take feats, regaining focus is a *full-round action* in and of itself. That means that using a metapsionic feat turns a standard action into a standard action + a full round action. This is clearly a higher cost than turning a standard action into a full round action.
> 
> The sorcerer can spontaneously decide to metamagic a spell, and then metamagic it again and again as long as he has slots, never having to take any feat other than the metamagic feat itself. The Psion who only has the metapsionic feat must take *two rounds* every time he manifests a metapsionic'd power, using up a full round and drawing AoO's to regain focus. If he takes an *extra feat*, he can refocus as a move action -- which means that to keep on manifesting metapsionic'd powers he must refocus as a move action and manifest as a standard action, effectively increasing manifesting time to a full-round action. If he takes *two more feats* to get a psicrystal with a focus, then he gets two "free" metapsionic manifestations -- *assuming he starts out psionically focused and with a focused crystal* -- before he has to start refocusing.
> 
> ...





Page # please.  I could not find what you are referring too


----------



## Tsuul (Aug 18, 2006)

If your looking for the Sorcerer variant in the PHBII to remove your familiar and gain speedy metamagics, its on page 61. Metamagic Specalist.


----------



## Zimbel16 (Aug 18, 2006)

Tikiman said:
			
		

> In my opinion, all casters are broken, and you just have to pick out the bad parts (like Rope Trick, Temporal Acceleration, Timestop, etc).



I disagree. Rangers are very well balanced (a little weak, it you ask me).     Paladins really aren't too bad either.    

More seriously, I don't think that banning the strongest power/sspells is the only solution; it's merely the easiest one. One could, for example, re-design the classes in question. One could, for example, re-design the magic system from the ground up to make their abilities more comparable to non-magic classes at high levels.


----------



## Bacris (Aug 18, 2006)

Frylock said:
			
		

> Were there any house rules that affected psionics adversely?



No.  No house rules, period.  We used psionic-magic transparency and that was it.  But he did use monsters that had spell resistance or turning...



			
				Frylock said:
			
		

> Were you the only "caster"?



In some, yes.  In others, no.  It wasn't a problem in either.  One game had a cleric (played by the DM so we didn't die) hireling and a druid (played by a player who wasn't really good with playing druids) and, since the characters weren't being played to be broken, my psion was easily on the same level with the entire party.  Of course, if either of those characters had been played to be power-houses, my psion would have looked like a wuss (which he did pre XPH, btw...).



			
				Frylock said:
			
		

> If anything, I suspect you had a really good DM who knew how to handle psionics and adjusted the encounters accordingly.  Other than me, most DMs that allow it have a lot of experience with it.  The overwhelming evidence, though, seems to be that psionicists are broken, with characters wielding way too much power, unless steps are taken to weaken it.



It was actually the first time using psionics for 2 of the 3 DMs, so I don't think it was that the DMs were experienced using psionics.  My main DM, who handled 3 of my psionic characters (I had 5, not 4 - one kineticist, one egoist/druid multiclass, two psywars, and an erudite) simply used multiple encounters per day every now and then.  But he also understood that encounter doesn't mean combat and would fling traps at us or social situations that required the expenditure of limited use resources.  This was an issue for the other casters in their spell slots as well as for my power points.
And the DM didn't do anything special in the encounters to counter psionics - he simply built encounters that took casters / manifesters into account as well as just melee / ranged combatants.  Pretty simple.



			
				Frylock said:
			
		

> Maybe the cause-and-effect is backwards.  Power gamers are often attracted to psionics (for whatever reason), and therefore the psionic characters are more powerful.  If you're not a pure power gamer, but instead make some decisions based on flavor and role-play, then maybe your psionicists aren't overpowered.
> 
> Of course, either way I have a problem, balancing encounters between power gamers and flavorites (huh?), but that's for another thread.




I'm not a power-gamer, actually.  I am more of a roll-player than a role-player and readily admit to that, but I've always enjoyed psionics for the flavor of it (even back in 2E when the system could literally kill the user) as opposed to being able to pull off stupid combos.  If I wanted stupid combos, I would play a wizard...


----------



## IcyCool (Aug 18, 2006)

Bleh.  New God-daughter, new puppy, and plenty of new work.

Marcus, I'll address your points, honest, but as I don't have computer access over the weekends, I'll likely not get to it until next week.  Sorry for the delay.


----------



## Dagger of Lath (Aug 18, 2006)

While I haven't played a psionic before, I've GMed for an Elan Wilder. At 18th - 20th level (he came in very late to a long running campaign), he remained on a roughly equal footing to the Human Arcane Trickster of equivalent level. Can't comment on psion from personal experience, but I found the wilder to be entirely balanced, perhaps even a little underpowered. I certainly wouldn't object as a GM to a player wanting to play a psionic character again.

I guess this partly comes down to the GM and game style. My games feature a lot of very widely varied situations, which tends to reward versatility and the ability to adapt your abilities to the scenario at hand. This brings most spellcasters down to earth but particularly psionics. In a game that was very strongly focused on a single theme or opponent, psionics could become devastating.

Sidenote: I thought 3rd edition psionics were completely broken, but 3.5 fixed the problems I had with them.


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 18, 2006)

IcyCool said:
			
		

> Bleh.  New God-daughter, new puppy, and plenty of new work.
> 
> Marcus, I'll address your points, honest, but as I don't have computer access over the weekends, I'll likely not get to it until next week.  Sorry for the delay.




Hug your god-daughter, pet your puppy, and work is more important than gaming debates.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the thread will still be going when you get back.


----------



## Frylock (Aug 18, 2006)

*Out for Now*



			
				Tikiman said:
			
		

> And thank you very much for approaching this with a sense of humor.



I was?  



> Oh, and when quoting, don't put =name in the second quote block and use .., not .. (so you should have ... at the end).



Yeah, I was wondering how I screwed up the tags.

Anyway, I've had a lot of good suggestions on how to address this issue in my campaign, and I appreciate that.  I'm going to try out some things and see what happens.  I also will be monitoring the numbers more closely, which is kind of hard to do because -- wouldn't you know it -- the guy playing the psion is the only one who has ignored my repeated attempts to see his character sheet.  (I try not to be a %&$# about it, but that's annoying and suspicious.)

We're not meeting this Sunday, so if I have any further questions I'll post to the thread after that (although I'll probably visit as new ideas are posted).  I think I have more homework to do before I can figure out which solution (if any) will work for me.


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 19, 2006)

Zimbel16 said:
			
		

> My main problem with this power is that it freely doubles in power 2 CL after you obtain it. I have no problem with +3/augment; I just think that the increase should be paid for.




4th level energy adaptation

Here's one of the few psionic powers that freely scale like a wizards spell.  This should have an augmenting option for more points.


----------



## Tetsubo (Aug 20, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> 4th level energy adaptation
> 
> Here's one of the few psionic powers that freely scale like a wizards spell.  This should have an augmenting option for more points.




I think they didn't take the augmentation route to avoid resistance levels that were near infinite. The other path to take would be to make it a costly, higher level power. But that puts it out of reach of those that need it most. I can see why scaled it as they did.


----------



## pawsplay (Aug 20, 2006)

The rationale behind the OP would apply equally well to saying wizard spells shouldn't be enhanced by metamagic feats such as Empower, Maximize, Heighten, and so forth. Like a psion, the wizard pays the same cost to learn the spell (one spell known), but can fire off the spell at a higher resource cost (4th level slot for maximized magic missile). There's no getting around this, just as they're no way to stop a 15th level fighter from picking up an ordinary greatsword and using Power Attack to split an ogre in half. 

If the main beef is the ability of psions, effectively, to give up lower slots for higher slots, then an entirely different approach needs to be taken. Nothing about caps for individual powers prevents psionic characters from repeatedly firing off their high level powers.

Incidentally, a wizard can easily fire off twenty or more level 9 spells a day; they do, after all, get scribe scroll as a bonus feat.


----------



## Nifft (Aug 20, 2006)

Frylock said:
			
		

> the guy playing the psion is the only one who has ignored my repeated attempts to see his character sheet.  (I try not to be a %&$# about it, but that's annoying and suspicious.)




Yeah. Very suspicious. That guy may be broken (even if, as I claim, Psionics is not).  


Re: Energy Adaptation: I suspect it scales for free because it's otherwise a weak power. ("Resist" is a passive ability, as opposed to an ability where you control when it applies.)

Cheers, -- N


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 21, 2006)

Bacris said:
			
		

> Wouldn't the easier option for Temporal Acceleration be to take a note from Complete Psionic and make it a higher level power with negative augmentations?
> 
> So make it 9th level, granting 3 rounds, or spend 4 pp less for one fewer round, etc...
> 
> And augmentation is not the same as Heighten Spell, as Heighten Spell treats the spell in all ways as higher level, including bypassing effects such as Spell Turning and Globe of Invulnerability.  Augmentation does not cover this aspect.




On what page did you find this reference?


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 21, 2006)

Based on this list, here are the changes I would suggest to some of the Psionic powers to work at balancing the problems in which I see.  Again, this is a suggested house rules and not official dogma.  

     Energy powers get one type of energy at start. Knowledge skill of Arcana and Psionics required for gaining additional types. A new energy type is learned based on every 8 ranks in each in the skill including all bonuses. Higher level energy powers have same type as the previous ones taken. 

     Inertial armor would be changed to every 4 PP to augment every +1 AC.

     Force Screen would be changed to every 6 PP to augment every +1 AC.

     Energy adaptation specified, 2nd level, will only resist one type of energy for 10 points unless augmented. For 2 additional PP's at 9th level, 20 points can be resisted and 2 additional PP’s at 13th level to 30 points of resistance.

     Energy adaptation, 4th level, resists five types of energy for 10 points each. For an 2 additional PP's at 11th level, 20 points can be resisted and an 2 additional PP’s at 15th level to 30 points of resistance.

     I would change energy conversion to a 9th level power.

     Temporal Acceleration, I would change to a 9th level power. This power would give 2 extra rounds.  The augmentation for 1 round per 4 additional PP’s still is used.  IE 3 additional rounds at 21st level, 4 at 25th and so on.  This is not as powerful as Time Stop but with the PP system can be done several times.

     Keep augments with regards to DC’s intact but does not change so that augmented of lower level powers is still subject to dispels and globes.  Make a separate feat to raise the level of the power based on points spent.

     Change the 1st level bonus feat to choose either psicrystal affinity or imprint stone only.

     Change hidden manifestation to DC 20 plus the level of the power and a plus 4 more if in combat.

     Psychic Crush is basically a save or die power. Any power that puts down an enemy into negative HP will get that NPC killed at the PC’s convenience.  This is a 5th level power.

Again, just my suggestions or 2 cents.  Also, don't underate the suboptimal builds!


----------



## KuKu (Aug 21, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> Based on this list, here are the changes I would suggest to some of the Psionic powers to work at balancing the problems in which I see.  Again, this is a suggested house rules and not official dogma.
> 
> (1)     Energy powers get one type of energy at start. Knowledge skill of Arcana and Psionics required for gaining additional types. A new energy type is learned based on every 8 ranks in each in the skill including all bonuses. Higher level energy powers have same type as the previous ones taken.
> 
> ...




Numbers added by me. (1) So without spending the skill points a psion who picked fire for energy ray cannot get any other energy types later on? Are you going to give them extra choices of energy types (force, alignment, acid, etc) in order to keep the other energy dealers from getting way ahead? (2) Do you disallow things like greater mage armor and other armor boosters from other sources as well? (3) The normal augment is already worthless, why this change? (4) and (5) and (6) these still seem very unecissary and illogical but if you are going to do them then perhaps some other benefit should ride along with it. After all, that is a huge amount of resources to pay, well above and beyond anyone else for the same benefit. (7) why not just get rid of temporal acceleration and time stop entirely? If not that why does temporal acceleration have to be worse than time stop in effectively every way? (8) Adding power points does not increase the level of the power so this does not seem to be a change other than having a feat which could raise the actual level of the power. (9) Why this change? This seems horrible. If you are going for more wizard like then give them both. Maybe you could change the wizard to have the same choice, a single choice feat or familar plus scribe scroll. (10) Perhaps ten plus power level plus half of power points spent to augment plus five times the number of displays that the psion wishes to hide? That starts it at a base of 16, which is doable a little over half of the time for a first level psion if he puts the skill points into it for a single hidden display while a ninth level power with two points of augmentation hiding three displays would take a check of thirty-five which is possible for a twentieth level psion to fail. (11) Psychic crush is already a fifth level power and a bad one at that with its massive bonus to the will save of the target plus all of its other issues. (12) suboptimal builds are suboptimal by definition, how can they not be treated as such? If you have one optimized build, one par build, and one suboptimal build then that is likely the order they will have in the group power wise as well unless the dm goes well out of his way to make it different.


----------



## Bacris (Aug 21, 2006)

Negative Augments - check out Dimension Door, Psionic in Complete Psionic (not in the XPH or SRD) - it adds the ability spend fewer power points and manifest as a standard action instead of move action.  The power level remains unchanged.  Easy way to limit access to later levels.

And I agree, if Temp Acceleration is a problem, just eliminate it and time stop, problem solved.


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 21, 2006)

KuKu said:
			
		

> Numbers added by me. (1) So without spending the skill points a psion who picked fire for energy ray cannot get any other energy types later on? Are you going to give them extra choices of energy types (force, alignment, acid, etc) in order to keep the other energy dealers from getting way ahead? (2) Do you disallow things like greater mage armor and other armor boosters from other sources as well? (3) The normal augment is already worthless, why this change? (4) and (5) and (6) these still seem very unecissary and illogical but if you are going to do them then perhaps some other benefit should ride along with it. After all, that is a huge amount of resources to pay, well above and beyond anyone else for the same benefit. (7) why not just get rid of temporal acceleration and time stop entirely? If not that why does temporal acceleration have to be worse than time stop in effectively every way? (8) Adding power points does not increase the level of the power so this does not seem to be a change other than having a feat which could raise the actual level of the power. (9) Why this change? This seems horrible. If you are going for more wizard like then give them both. Maybe you could change the wizard to have the same choice, a single choice feat or familar plus scribe scroll. (10) Perhaps ten plus power level plus half of power points spent to augment plus five times the number of displays that the psion wishes to hide? That starts it at a base of 16, which is doable a little over half of the time for a first level psion if he puts the skill points into it for a single hidden display while a ninth level power with two points of augmentation hiding three displays would take a check of thirty-five which is possible for a twentieth level psion to fail. (11) Psychic crush is already a fifth level power and a bad one at that with its massive bonus to the will save of the target plus all of its other issues. (12) suboptimal builds are suboptimal by definition, how can they not be treated as such? If you have one optimized build, one par build, and one suboptimal build then that is likely the order they will have in the group power wise as well unless the dm goes well out of his way to make it different.




1)     No, they have other powers out of CP that include Positive, Force, Physical and so on so no additional energy types are needed.

2)     So at 9th level you get the effect of greater mage armor and at higher level you get additional.  At 17th level, +8 to AC instead of +12 which is far above the spells that Wizards have.

3)     You only get +4 deflection from which does not conflict and you can get +6 at 15th level.  Add that to +7 at same level for inertial armor, say +5 for natural armor from oak body, this give him AC 28 as it is and on apar with the wizards buffs.

4)     Free scaling isn't part of the way in which psionics are built and this brings them in line with the way that they are built.

5)     In one manifestation you get the effect of 5 spells and that you shouldn't get free scaling as per #4.  I think this is still well worth the power and will take it regardless of the character.

6)     As 4 & 5, this power is well worth it at 9th level in that you can store damage of 4 types to deal again back at your enemies.

7)     A wizard at 20th would have 3 spells and how many would take all three as Time Stop.  A wizard would get 3.5 rounds every time with the same restrictions as Temporal Acceleration.  A Psion with this power could easily use at least 2 to equal that a wizard would typically have which would be one spell or more.

8)     This was meant to show an understanding and what could be done to fix other player complaints.

9)     Because they shouldn't have the ability to choose whatever they want.  This keeps them within the flavor of psionics.  I'm not adverse to giving them both but my suggestion is to scale back to baseline and not keeping Psions above the baseline.   XPH vs Core.

10)     Yep, this should not be the end all and have no chance of failure but it could possibly be scaled back down to a DC 15 to start.

11)     People have said that there was a lack of save or dies and I was pointing out one in which the Psion gets at a 5th level power and not 6th as most Wizard spells.

12)     Okay.


----------



## Tsuul (Aug 21, 2006)

> 2) So at 9th level you get the effect of greater mage armor and at higher level you get additional. At 17th level, +8 to AC instead of +12 which is far above the spells that Wizards have.



So? Should a psion be <=wizard in all respects?



> 9) Because they shouldn't have the ability to choose whatever they want. This keeps them within the flavor of psionics.



Please read *Bonus Feats* under psionics. The flavor restriction is already in place. [edit: removed my _spiteful_ comment.] Realy, should psions be <= wizards in all respects? Psions are not just flexible wizards. They are different.

Those are my two obvious remarks.


----------



## Bacris (Aug 21, 2006)

It really does seem like you're more interested in making sure that psionics is less worthwhile than magic as opposed to "balancing it"

The many changes you want to make seem only intended to make the wizard better than the psion in all aspects.  Why is it so wrong that the psion be better than the wizard at parts of the game, while the wizard is better at others?


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 21, 2006)

Tsuul said:
			
		

> So? Should a psion be <=wizard in all respects?




Should they be greater than the Wizard?  I think not.  They should be equitable, not superior.



			
				Tsuul said:
			
		

> Please read *Bonus Feats* under psionics. The flavor restriction is already in place. Ar you just being spiteful at this point? Realy, should psions be <= wizards in all respects? Psions are not just flexible wizards. They are different.
> 
> Those are my two obvious remarks.




Missed that one.  Okay, I take it back.


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 21, 2006)

Bacris said:
			
		

> It really does seem like you're more interested in making sure that psionics is less worthwhile than magic as opposed to "balancing it"
> 
> The many changes you want to make seem only intended to make the wizard better than the psion in all aspects.  Why is it so wrong that the psion be better than the wizard at parts of the game, while the wizard is better at others?




I'll still play the Psion with the limits I've suggested.  I want them to be on par with the Core only wizard.  Not a head and shoulders above.  My suggestions don't take them below a wizard, they just level the playing field.


----------



## Bacris (Aug 21, 2006)

But he's not on par...

The Wizard has far superior higher level spells and the ability to learn as many spells as he can pay for or find and keep spell slots open to choose later in the day.  The save or dies you discuss that the psion has are drastically inferior to the higher level wizard spells.

Are you going to take this into account, as well?  You're taking some of the psion's flexibility away, which is its greatest strength, and leaving one of the wizard's greatest strengths in place (save or dies).

Comparitively, your psion is not on par with the wizard, he is quickly becoming an inferior.


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 21, 2006)

Bacris said:
			
		

> But he's not on par...
> 
> The Wizard has far superior higher level spells and the ability to learn as many spells as he can pay for or find and keep spell slots open to choose later in the day.  The save or dies you discuss that the psion has are drastically inferior to the higher level wizard spells.
> 
> ...




Prove me wrong by playing it.  I am willing to play with the restrictions because one, I like the flavor and two are still more than playable to still be a powerhouse.  Again, these are house rules and not doctrine.

Yes, the wizard has much more save or dies.  1/6 get crystalize which is essentially a flesh to stone at 6th level of power.  There are some but not a lot.

With complete psionic, positive and negative damage has been added to the Psions potential repertoire.  They had Force potential and now these kinds.  The Psion is getting everything that detractors had said they were missing.  Now it is time to scale back.  I'm sure that future supplements will give them that.

They still have flexability, just not all at once.  They have to grow into it instead of having it handed to them all at 1st level.


----------



## KuKu (Aug 21, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> 1)     No, they have other powers out of CP that include Positive, Force, Physical and so on so no additional energy types are needed.
> 
> 2)     So at 9th level you get the effect of greater mage armor and at higher level you get additional.  At 17th level, +8 to AC instead of +12 which is far above the spells that Wizards have.
> 
> ...




(1) There are few powers which are worthwhile which are outside of those elemental powers. Concussion blast is a waste of space and as you are using complete psionics then damage reduction effects the physical powers which really cuts into their effectiveness. You are imposing a fairly large extra limit on the energy powers without giving anything back at all. A fire psion is stuck being a fire psion without expending even more resources beyond what it takes to keep up with damage from a wizard. Yuck. If the number of ranks was lower and they could choose between a greater selection then I might be able to get behind what you are saying, but as is? (2) Even if this is true, which is a big if, I still do not see the reason for the change. A wizard could research a better spell for a higher slot and put it into his pool of nearly limitless choices. But your change does not follow the progression outlined by spells already available to the wizard so you are just making the psion worse. It is ok for one to be better at something than the other however. (3) It is a shield bonus and it is basically the same as the shield spell except that instead of blocking magic missile it has a horribly expensive augment. (4) Free scaling of damage dice is not a psionic thing generally, scaling of other effects is hit or miss. Even for damage there are other tradeoffs however. Instead of free scaling psions get choice and dc increase for the extra cost, tradeoffs. With your change there is no tradeoff, it is simply worse. If you are going to charge more then there should be something to show for it. Otherwise it is simply a nerf and a poor one in this case. (5) I believe that this was already debunked very well earlier in the thread. (7) And the specialist wizard has many more total equivalent slots for the day along with potentiallly orders of magnitude more choices for what to place into those slots. You would simply be better off removing all of them entirely as they could still cause problems, people complain about time stops problems quite often and your changes will only make the psionic a poor cousin yet again in the comparison. (8) Which complaint? (9) Others have covered this, it seems that you were unaware of the choices for the feat in question. Does that knowledge adjust how you would do this rule? (11) So you pick one that is mostly a waste of space? Wizards have baleful polymorph and phantasmal killer while psions have psychic crush. Psychic crush has the same dc as a first level spell or power plus is mind-affecting plus any healing spell will put them back into the fight.


----------



## FrostedMini1337 (Aug 21, 2006)

Just as a note: I read complete psionics.  completely disgusted.  What a waste of paper.  Rather than rectify the problems and reinforce flavor, they destroy my dreams.  Paying 40 dollars for eratta is lame.


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 21, 2006)

KuKu said:
			
		

> (1) There are few powers which are worthwhile which are outside of those elemental powers. Concussion blast is a waste of space and as you are using complete psionics then damage reduction effects the physical powers which really cuts into their effectiveness. You are imposing a fairly large extra limit on the energy powers without giving anything back at all. A fire psion is stuck being a fire psion without expending even more resources beyond what it takes to keep up with damage from a wizard. Yuck. If the number of ranks was lower and they could choose between a greater selection then I might be able to get behind what you are saying, but as is? (2) Even if this is true, which is a big if, I still do not see the reason for the change. A wizard could research a better spell for a higher slot and put it into his pool of nearly limitless choices. But your change does not follow the progression outlined by spells already available to the wizard so you are just making the psion worse. It is ok for one to be better at something than the other however. (3) It is a shield bonus and it is basically the same as the shield spell except that instead of blocking magic missile it has a horribly expensive augment. (4) Free scaling of damage dice is not a psionic thing generally, scaling of other effects is hit or miss. Even for damage there are other tradeoffs however. Instead of free scaling psions get choice and dc increase for the extra cost, tradeoffs. With your change there is no tradeoff, it is simply worse. If you are going to charge more then there should be something to show for it. Otherwise it is simply a nerf and a poor one in this case. (5) I believe that this was already debunked very well earlier in the thread. (7) And the specialist wizard has many more total equivalent slots for the day along with potentiallly orders of magnitude more choices for what to place into those slots. You would simply be better off removing all of them entirely as they could still cause problems, people complain about time stops problems quite often and your changes will only make the psionic a poor cousin yet again in the comparison. (8) Which complaint? (9) Others have covered this, it seems that you were unaware of the choices for the feat in question. Does that knowledge adjust how you would do this rule? (11) So you pick one that is mostly a waste of space? Wizards have baleful polymorph and phantasmal killer while psions have psychic crush. Psychic crush has the same dc as a first level spell or power plus is mind-affecting plus any healing spell will put them back into the fight.




Again, these are suggested house rules to work at balancing the some of the problems I and others see in psionics.  We are going to have to agree to disagree.

The advantage of the wizard is his diversity.  But he cannot have all his spells available at the same time.  The psion always has all his options available no matter the condition.

Take a Psion against a wizard on any given time would be at a severe disadvantage.  Now, if the wizard is prepared for the Psion, yep, probably a good match with the wizard with the wizard winning 65-70% of the time however, if the wizard is not prepared, it reverses to between about 25-30%.  Again, anecdotal but this is enough to make the conclusions from the premises I'm using.


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 21, 2006)

FrostedMini1337 said:
			
		

> Just as a note: I read complete psionics.  completely disgusted.  What a waste of paper.  Rather than rectify the problems and reinforce flavor, they destroy my dreams.  Paying 40 dollars for eratta is lame.




I tend to agree as this is one of the few books that I have bought rather than use PDF files.  If fact anything psionic has always been purchased by me.  I think that there are maybe 40 pages that are worthwhile and the rest wasted fluff.


----------



## Tsuul (Aug 22, 2006)

Wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> Should they be greater than the Wizard? I think not. They should be equitable, not superior.



I agree with that for all the classes. But I am refering to the following.
If a wizards abilities can be quantified as the following formula.
2 + 2 + 2 + 2

And the Psion can be quantified as the formula
1 + 3 + 1 + 3

Then what it seems your are doing (on a small scale) is change a few parts of the psion to equal a wizard in those areas it is better and create a formula that looks like.
1 + 2 + 1 + 2

I am over simplifying to the extream though.
Some aspecs of psionics need to be addressed as "supposed to be superior to arcane" while others are to be addressed as "supposed to be inferior to arcane". The DMG briefly touches on the differences between arcane and divine.
I wish I knew psionics well enough (from a design standpoint) to be able to say what areas are where on the powerscale in comparision to other spellcasters.

Wild, I edited my spiteful comment above. I jumped the gun on an accusation. My apologies.


----------



## KuKu (Aug 22, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> Again, these are suggested house rules to work at balancing the some of the problems I and others see in psionics.  We are going to have to agree to disagree.
> 
> The advantage of the wizard is his diversity.  But he cannot have all his spells available at the same time.  The psion always has all his options available no matter the condition.
> 
> Take a Psion against a wizard on any given time would be at a severe disadvantage.  Now, if the wizard is prepared for the Psion, yep, probably a good match with the wizard with the wizard winning 65-70% of the time however, if the wizard is not prepared, it reverses to between about 25-30%.  Again, anecdotal but this is enough to make the conclusions from the premises I'm using.




Yes, they are suggestions, and I was attempting to explain why they might need to be rethought. Giving a different perspective on the matter is usually pretty helpful. The wizard may not have all of his spells available at a moments notice but he does have them all available over the course of a few minutes. Leaving slots open is a great way to have the wizard be able to take advantage of his massive selection. Several people here are giving different lines of thought along with different anecdotal evidence. Some of it agrees in some ways and others of it disagrees. With your latest post in response to my post you brushed off very valid concerns with your proposed changes. This continued right down to the last point about the save or dies which was also shown to be incorrect in the counter example. Hopefully at least some of the responses have been helpful though.


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Aug 23, 2006)

This thread is huge. Has anyone compiled key points into a handy document? If so, I would appreciate it if they would post the document as an attachment.


----------



## Someone (Aug 23, 2006)

That would be easy:

"Psionics are broken!"

"No they are not!"


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Aug 23, 2006)

Someone said:
			
		

> That would be easy:
> 
> "Psionics are broken!"
> 
> "No they are not!"



Wow, that was productive.    

Seriously though, I am interested in a "Psionics Houserules' document.


----------



## Marcus Smythe (Aug 23, 2006)

If your interested in specific house rules to offset the strengths of Psionics, the OP is your best bet.  A large % of the thread has been spent arguing strengths and weaknesses, and suggesting strategies to allow GMs to deal with Psionics as written, without having to make changes to the rules that (in some opinions) are not necessary.


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Aug 23, 2006)

Just what exactly is OP?


----------



## Tsuul (Aug 23, 2006)

OP: Original Poster


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Aug 23, 2006)

Tsuul said:
			
		

> OP: Original Poster



 Oh, well I feel sheepish.


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 23, 2006)

Found another power that initially is inferior to its equivalent but becomes superior as the psion get tohigher level.  Urge Extermination vs. Power Word Kill.  Just pointing out another power that that flat out kills.  A 20th level could kill a creature with 120 or less HP.  No suggestions to modify.


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond (Aug 24, 2006)

Hi all, just thought I'd chime in with my 2 cp.
With the whole "Can't ready an action against a psion" thing, I checked the SRD. It never states that you have to be able to percieve the action the opponent is taking to ready an action against it. (I think it did in 3.0 though, but a quick glance didn't confirm this) So I could ready an action to attack the Psion if he thinks about butterflies. (And if he does, even if I don't know it, I can attack him)
Since psionics require time to manifest (usually) and since its usually a standard action, and since a round is 6 secounds and everything is assumed to happen simultaneously, the whole 3 secounds a psion stands there staring at me seems like a good time to put my short sword into his skull. I think one could ready an action for that too. I mean, 3 secounds is a long time.
Then again, it never says anywhere in the SRD that a Dead character suffers any penalties. (Except decay, but that has no mechanical benfit/downside)


----------



## KuKu (Aug 24, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> Found another power that initially is inferior to its equivalent but becomes superior as the psion get tohigher level.  Urge Extermination vs. Power Word Kill.  Just pointing out another power that that flat out kills.  A 20th level could kill a creature with 120 or less HP.  No suggestions to modify.




That is not in the system resource document as far as I could find, is it in complete psionic? Also, if it starts off weaker but one can put more resources in to become equivalent and then exceed is that an arguement for it being too strong or too weak or balanced?


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 24, 2006)

KuKu said:
			
		

> That is not in the system resource document as far as I could find, is it in complete psionic? Also, if it starts off weaker but one can put more resources in to become equivalent and then exceed is that an arguement for it being too strong or too weak or balanced?




No argument here, just pointing out comparisons of another power.


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 24, 2006)

Someone said:
			
		

> That would be easy:
> 
> "Psionics are broken!"
> 
> "No they are not!"




I almost laughed my butt off!!!!


----------



## Tikiman (Aug 25, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> Prove me wrong by playing it.



This I find interesting.  When I basically told you to do this (I think my words were 'experience the system more before fixing it') it was interpreted as an assault on your person in the form of 'you say my opinion is invalid', followed by a prompt ignoring because it didn't agree with you anti-psi position.  But when you tell others to do this it is interpreted as a rational justification (even though anyone with a science background knows that the norm has to be proven wrong, not the experimental).  Any explanation?



			
				wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> I am willing to play with the restrictions because



Why are you so unwilling to play with the system as it is, XPH only?



			
				wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> my suggestion is to scale back to baseline and not keeping Psions above the baseline. XPH vs Core.





			
				wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> With complete psionic, positive and negative damage has been added to the Psions potential repertoire. They had Force potential and now these kinds. The Psion is getting everything that detractors had said they were missing. Now it is time to scale back. I'm sure that future supplements will give them that.



Hang on a second there buddy.  You're not comparing Core vs. XPH, you're comparing Core to XPH+non-core.  It's hard to help you when you're position keeps shifting like this.  It is also hard for core vs. XPH rules to help you in a game that contains non-core material.  Why don't you make rules tailored to your fix your problem instead of rules designed to fix psionics?


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 25, 2006)

I've been looking Psychic Reformation.  I think that this should be used but these restrictions should be used.  

It may change one this.  IE if you make a change, change a skill or a power or a feat, the XP cost is per item.  If you change a class, then make the XP 500 per level gone back instead of 50 XP per level.

If you were 15th level and wanted to change your 6th level feat, it would cost you 450 XP.  If you wanted to go back and and change to a racial replacement level instead of standard at 1st.  Then this would cost 7500 XP.


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 25, 2006)

Tikiman said:
			
		

> Hang on a second there buddy.  You're not comparing Core vs. XPH, you're comparing Core to XPH+non-core.  It's hard to help you when you're position keeps shifting like this.  It is also hard for core vs. XPH rules to help you in a game that contains non-core material.  Why don't you make rules tailored to your fix your problem instead of rules designed to fix psionics?




With XPH you have to use Complete Psionic because it used has errata on XPH.


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 25, 2006)

I found with Dimension Door that you can spend 6 points as an augment to have D. Door as a move action.  Would this mean that you could D. Door and then take any other actions unlike standard D. Door where it ends your turn?


----------



## Liquidsabre (Aug 25, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> I found with Dimension Door that you can spend 6 points as an augment to have D. Door as a move action.  Would this mean that you could D. Door and then take any other actions unlike standard D. Door where it ends your turn?




Looks like they can use a standard action and *then* use DD as a move action via this ability.


----------



## Tikiman (Aug 25, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> With XPH you have to use Complete Psionic because it used has errata on XPH.



 Complete Arcane has errata in it (weaponlike spells chiefly).  How come you can ignore that but you can't ignore it when psionics does the same thing?  Why do you have such a double standard for psionics and magic?

And this doesn't change the fact that you are comparing XPH+non-core to core alone.  In fact, this means that you were never comparing XPH to core at any point, but you said you were.  Please stop being disingenuous like this.  It's very hard to not flame someone when they _appear_ to be lying to you.

And why can't you use just the errata from the book?


----------



## Zimbel16 (Aug 28, 2006)

*Non-linear Power Point costs*

I have an idea sprung from Thanee's posts on Psion power vs. Core Spellcaster power (See post # 176 ). To summarize, it's that point-based spellcasting gives more of the top-level powers per day than normal spellcasting.



			
				THANEE said:
			
		

> 5th PP total 25+10=35
> 10th PP total 88+30=118
> 15th PP total 195+52=247 (-1 PP per manifestation)
> 20th PP total 343+100=443 (-1 PP per manifestation)
> ...




My question is: what if the power point costs were non-linear in comparison to the effect? Would this not solve the problem?

Let's seperate out PP into two categories: The amount spent "Spent PP" And the amount that the power's effect is at "Effective PP". Caps (for spending PP) are based on the Spent PP alogrithm (not merely Manifester Level) Obviously, in the XPH, these numbers are always the same. However, they need not be:

Here's a first pass at a formula, let's see what you think:

Spent PP = Floor(Effective PP^Beta)

Where Beta is 1.1, we get:
Effective    Spent
1                1
2                2
3                3
4                4
5                5
6                7
7                8
8                9
9                11
10               12 
11                13
12                15
13                16
14                18
15                19
16                21
17                22
18                24
19                25
20                26

So above 5 PP, the Manifester is spending "extra" power points that get "wasted" in the creation of the effect. What effect would this have on Thanee's analysis?

5th PP total 25+10=35
10th PP total 88+30=118
15th PP total 195+52=247 (-1 PP per manifestation)
20th PP total 343+100=443 (-1 PP per manifestation)

A 5th level psion can manifest roughly 7 fully augmented powers per day.
A 10th level psion can manifest roughly 12 10 fully augmented powers per day.
A 15th level psion can manifest roughly 18 14 fully augmented powers per day.
A 20th level psion can manifest roughly 23 18 fully augmented powers per day.

So somewhat better, but probably not as good as we'd like - from this measure, a LV 20 Psion is still better than a core spellcaster.

Where Beta is 1.3, we get:
Effective    Spent
1                1
2                2
3                4
4                6
5                8
6                10
7                12
8                14
9                17
10               19 
11                22
12                25
13                28
14                30
15                33
16                36
17                39
18                42
19                45
20                49

So above 2 PP, the Manifester is spending "extra" power points that get "wasted" in the creation of the effect. What effect would this have on Thanee's analysis?

5th PP total 25+10=35
10th PP total 88+30=118
15th PP total 195+52=247 (-1 PP per manifestation)
20th PP total 343+100=443 (-1 PP per manifestation)

A 5th level psion can manifest roughly 7 4 fully augmented powers per day.
A 10th level psion can manifest roughly 12 6 fully augmented powers per day.
A 15th level psion can manifest roughly 18 7 fully augmented powers per day.
A 20th level psion can manifest roughly 23 9 fully augmented powers per day.

This is far closer to a "core" spellcaster (but the Core spellcaster will have far more low-level spells). Since this would be all their power/day, perhaps it should be upped a bit, to say 1.2?

Where Beta is 1.2, we get:
Effective    Spent
1                1
2                2
3                3
4                5
5                6
6                8
7                10
8                12
9                13
10               15 
11                17
12                19
13                21
14                23
15                25
16                27
17                29
18                32
19                34
20                36

So above 3 PP, the Manifester is spending "extra" power points that get "wasted" in the creation of the effect. What effect would this have on Thanee's analysis?

5th PP total 25+10=35
10th PP total 88+30=118
15th PP total 195+52=247 (-1 PP per manifestation)
20th PP total 343+100=443 (-1 PP per manifestation)

A 5th level psion can manifest roughly 7 6 fully augmented powers per day.
A 10th level psion can manifest roughly 12 8 fully augmented powers per day.
A 15th level psion can manifest roughly 18 10 fully augmented powers per day.
A 20th level psion can manifest roughly 23 13 fully augmented powers per day.

I like these numbers. I also like the idea that a LV 9 power costs more than twice the amount that a LV 5 power does.


----------



## wildstarsreach (Aug 29, 2006)

Zimbel16 said:
			
		

> I have an idea sprung from Thanee's posts on Psion power vs. Core Spellcaster power (See post # 176 ). To summarize, it's that point-based spellcasting gives more of the top-level powers per day than normal spellcasting.
> 
> Edited for length.
> 
> I like these numbers. I also like the idea that a LV 9 power costs more than twice the amount that a LV 5 power does.




I like the idea in principle but I think that the bookkeeping problem will be more than players want to mess with.

A simpler solution would be to make 1/2 you power points can be spent on power costs and the other 1/2 can be spent on augmentations.  Once you rune out of the augmentation half you can only use the base power.   You can not use the first part of your PP's to augment but you can use your augment PP's to pay for base powers.

What do people think?


----------



## Tikiman (Aug 30, 2006)

Zimbel16 said:
			
		

> Here's a first pass at a formula, let's see what you think:



The problem I'm seeing is that this doesn't actually solve any problems.  In games where the psion normally doesn't run out of PP (1-2 encounter sessions) your system will have the psion paying more PP, but he still won't run out, so he'll still just pump out power after power.  If there was a 3rd encounter he might run dry.  Worst of all, if you were normally a nice player and rationed your PP all by yourself, this system would now bend you over and go to town on you in encounter 4.  The wizard would still have lots of firepower, but you'd be left with a crossbow.  So, in games with too few encounters, your system does nothing, and in games with DMG recommended 4/day encounters you are now a gimp.  This would encourage people to only play psions when they're overpowered.  No offence, just my honest take on what your system would do.

What do you think of the system I had in post #334, where you give the psion a slice of his PP pool every combat (basically forcing him to ration)?  I think it achieves the affect you're looking for, but on a per encounter basis instead of per day.



			
				wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> A simpler solution would be to make 1/2 you power points can be spent on power costs and the other 1/2 can be spent on augmentations. Once you rune out of the augmentation half you can only use the base power. You can not use the first part of your PP's to augment but you can use your augment PP's to pay for base powers.



This is an interesting system, but I can't really see the benefit in it.  The only thing this would prevent is the use of lower level powers augmented to their max.  However, the psion would simply switch to using higher level powers augmented to their max (save or dies probably).  A level 20 psion with your rules could still pump out 20+ maxed out disintegrates.  All you've done really is forced people to use their higher level powers more often, limiting flexibility but not overall impact.  I suppose they'd also waste some XP making 6th level versions of their favorite lower level powers (like Astral Construct, Energy Missile, etc).

I don't like the overall flavor of this system, and I wouldn't want to play a psion with it (mostly due to having to keep track of two different pools), but I don't think it would reduce the power of the psion so others may like it.


----------



## Bacris (Aug 31, 2006)

As soon as you start using Complete Psionic, you open the door to Complete Arcane, Divine, and Adventurer, and any semblance of balance is destroyed.

So, either go Core vs XPH or Core+Complete vs XPH+Complete.

You can't have it both ways and not be a hypocrit.


----------



## wildstarsreach (Oct 9, 2006)

I found due to someone pointing out the word 'or' in Energy Adaptation, that this power has been misinterpreted by me and a good many other people.  

This power is 4th because you don't have to choose at the time of manifesting which type of energy it protects against. You choose at the time of attack which type if it currently up or instantly manifested. This still only protects against 1 type of energy and not all 5 simultaneously as I had previously thought. You have protection vs. any of the five energy types until you are attacked. From that point forward you only have protection against that type previously protected unless you manifest EA again.  

That also goes with energy conversion.


----------

