# Special Conversion Thread:  Moldvay's Undead



## Shade (Mar 14, 2008)

Tom Moldvay did a series of fantastic articles in Dragon Magazine providing variant undead.  This thread will focus on these monsters.


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## Shade (Mar 14, 2008)

Here's the first one.

*Keres*

In Greek mythology, the keres were the children of Nyx and Erebus. Nyx was the goddess of night, and Erebus ruled that part of the underworld inhabited by the shades. The keres were closely related with the Moirai (the Fates) and the Erinyes (the Furies). They served Ares, measuring the fate of each warrior and dragging off the corpses of the dead. They also appeared as goddesses of death, often identified with the avenging Furies.

Popular tradition, however, identified the keres with evil spirits of the dead, perhaps ancestral spirits, who had to be appeased by sacrifices. Entire holy days, such as the festival of Anthesteria were set aside for such sacrifices. The festival closed with the command: "Out of the house, ye keres."

If the keres were not properly appeased they would roam the earth bringing misfortune, disease, old age, and death. In popular belief, the keres were one of the plagues that escaped from Pandora's box.  The root "ker" means: "bane, evil, death."

The various accounts of the keres from Greek mythology have inspired an undead monster by the same name.

Keres
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Minimal
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Largely nocturnal
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: High
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Any evil
NO. APPEARING: 1 or 3
ARMOR CLASS: 1
MOVEMENT: 12, Fl 18
HIT DICE: 9 + 9
THAC0: 11
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 1d8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Bad luck, aging, and disease
SPECIAL DEFENSES: + 1 or better weapon to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M
MORALE: Fearless (20)
X.P. VALUE: 7,000

Keres are malignant undead spirits who seek revenge against the living. They look like horrible, black-winged humanoids with gleaming fangs and long, pointed nails. They are dressed in blood-stained robes and carry scourges (barbed whips). 

Combat: An attack by keres will be either one ker (the singular form of the word) alone, or a group of three keres.  While characters could conceivably chance upon the keres by  accident, the undead monster usually is specifically stalking the characters. An attack by a single ker usually will be the spirit of some NPC or monster the characters recently killed. An attack by three keres is often a retaliation visited upon those characters who have become overly bloodthirsty.  This latter kind of attack may even be sent against the characters by the gods as a warning. Likewise, keres may be sent as retribution against characters who have proved overly greedy. Thus, there is an element of fate in most keres attacks.

Keres can strike three times per round with their whips. Each attack does 1-8 points of damage. The first attack could, in addition, bring the victim bad luck. The second attack might age the victim. The third attack could infect the victim with disease.

Victims are allowed a save against the additional effects of the attacks. The save against bad luck is the same as petrification.  The save against aging is the same as death. The save against disease is the same as spells.

Bad luck lowers all attack rolls and saves of the victim by - 1 to - 4 (roll 1d4) for 3d10 turns. Aging will age the victim 10d4 years. The disease caused by the keres is the same as that imparted by the rotting touch of a mummy. Multiple hits are cumulative.  

Keres will fight on until they are reduced to 0 hp or they have slain all the characters. If  they are victorious, the keres will drain the blood of their victims then tear the corpses into pieces and devour them, even the bones. There will thus be nothing left of the victims to later raise or resurrect.

Keres can shapechange themselves into tiny gnat-like creatures so they can better stalk their victims. In gnat form they can fly at a speed of 18") but only for a maximum of six turns. If they are not spotted, Keres may follow their victims and wait to attack when the victims are otherwise occupied (usually with another combat).  Keres cannot attack in gnat form. The transition takes one round. 

The following spells or attack forms have no effect on keres: sleep, charm, hold, cold, poison, and paralysis. They take only half damage from electricity.  A cleric has the same chance to turn a keres as she does a ghost.

Habitat/Society: Keres have no particular society. They may have memories from when they were alive and still believe in the dictates of their once-living society. For example, a hill giant is slain by the characters and comes back as a keres to attack his slayers. The keres still will have the same superstitions as the original hill giant.

Sunlight does not harm keres, but they prefer to attack at night. During the day they remain in gnat form, in some hiding place.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #210 (1994).


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## freyar (Mar 14, 2008)

You know, I could almost see the Greek version as outsiders, but I think we should stick with undead.  You feel like making these a template or just a monster?


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## Shade (Mar 14, 2008)

Let's go with unique for starters, and we can always add a template section later if we want one.


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## freyar (Mar 14, 2008)

Ok, 9HD undead.  We seen to know Int (high), but that's about it.  DR X/magic (probably 10, but maybe 5).  With AC 19, I'd go for 5 or 6 points of natural armor, probably.  +4 turn resistance, like a ghost?

You know, the bit about the hill giant makes me lean toward doing a template, but we can just take what we do for the monster.


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## Shade (Mar 14, 2008)

Let's try to find some ability scores.

High Int is 13-14.

The 8-HD mummy has Str 24, Dex 10, Con —, Int 6, Wis 14, Cha 15.

I figure these guys are fairly strong, but probably not as strong as a mummy.  I think Dex should be a bit higher than 10, since whips are generally finesse weapons.


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## freyar (Mar 14, 2008)

Why don't we drop Str to 16 and raise Dex to 18?  Int 13 sounds good to me.


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## Shade (Mar 14, 2008)

So Str 16, Dex 18, Con —, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 15?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 14, 2008)

We could make them extraplanar undead, to pull in the outsider connection. And those ability scores sound good.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 16, 2008)

Yes, extraplanar sounds good to me, too.

From above, DR 10/magic, +4 turn resistance, +5 or +6 natural armor?

Alternate form or change shape for the gnat bit?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 16, 2008)

Sounds like an alternate form to me.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Mar 17, 2008)

I guess we should work on the whips next.  Should the whips be magic items, or should the magic abilities be associated with the keres (so that the whips become mundane if you get them)?  Or some mix?  What they need:

3 attacks per round
"luck damage"
aging
mummy rot

Maybe I'd suggest making the whips +1 weapons on their own, but the special abilities above are inherent in the ker itself.  What do you think?


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2008)

I think the abilities should be inherent to the ker.

As for the scourges themselves, it doesn't sound like they have the multi-tailed version in mind.  Do we want to just go with a standard whip and allow them the ability to attack thrice per round?   Or borrow this from the earlier Dragon Magazine version of the scourge?

"Scourge: This three-tailed barbed whip allows the wielder to make three simultaneous attack rolls (at the same modifier) with each attack. Each attack roll is resolved separately."


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 17, 2008)

I think the three attacks should also be inherent to the keres--if you pick one up, you use it like any other weapon (maybe a light flail, since scourges aren't SRD).

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2008)

Here's an attempt:

Scourge of Keres (Su):  Each ker wields a barbed whip, through which it can utilize several supernatural powers.  In the hands of a non-ker, the scourge functions only as a masterwork whip/light flail.  In the hands of a ker, it is treated as a +1 weapon and allows the ker to utilize additional powers.

First, the ker may make three attacks with the ker as a full attack action.  It may make no other attacks in a round, regardless of the number of attacks it would normally be granted due to base attack bonus, feats, or spells (such as haste).

The first successful hit against a single target requires the victim to succeed on a DC X Will save or suffer bad luck for 3d10 minutes.  This bad luck imparts a -1 to -4 luck penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.  

The second successful hit against a single target ages the victim 10d4 years unless it succeeds on a DC X Fortitude save.  This effect is permanent, and can only be removed by a limited wish, wish, or miracle spell.

A third successful hit against a single target inflicts a supernatural disease upon the victim known as ker blight (Fortitude DC X, incubation period 1 minute; damage 1d6 Con and 1d6 Cha).  Unlike normal diseases, ker blight continues until the victim reaches Constitution 0 (and dies) or is cured as described below.  

Ker blight is a powerful curse, not a natural disease. A character attempting to cast any conjuration (healing) spell on a creature afflicted with ker blight must succeed on a DC 20 caster level check, or the spell has no effect on the afflicted character.  To eliminate ker blight, the curse must first be broken with break enchantment or remove curse (requiring a DC 20 caster level check for either spell), after which a caster level check is no longer necessary to cast healing spells on the victim, and the ker blight can be magically cured as any normal disease.

An afflicted creature who dies of ker blight shrivels away into dust that blows away into nothing at the first wind.

The save DCs for all effects are Charisma-based.


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## freyar (Mar 17, 2008)

Looks pretty good.  The only change I'd make is to say that the luck penalty is 1d4.  (Or we could peg it to -4, if we're feeling mean.)


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2008)

Updated and added alternate form ability.



> They take only half damage from electricity.




Resistance to elecricity 20?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 17, 2008)

Sure! 

The permanent aging seems really, really harsh for a 9HD undead (which will probably end up being CR 8-10). My recommendation would be to make it a curse that lowers physical ability scores. The ruin chanter from MMV and the "touch of years" spell from Complete Mage could be used as models.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 18, 2008)

One thing that's always bugged me about 3e is the near-total removal of aging effects (and things like rejuvenation to counter them).   That said, I can live with something akin to the ruin chanter's infirmity of body ability.  I'm also fine with toning back the number of years aged, what it takes to reverse the aging, the duration, etc.

Thoughts?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 18, 2008)

My personal opinion, in the light of the absence of aging effects, is to emulate the infirmity of body. Maybe make it less crippling but more permanent, though. Maybe a -4 to Str, Dex and Con for one year or until removed by _remove curse_?

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 19, 2008)

That seems reasonable.


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## Shade (Mar 19, 2008)

Updated.

Alternate Form (Su): A ker can assume the shape of a gnat as a standard action. While in its alternate form, the ker loses its attacks, but it gains a fly speed of 50 feet (perfect).  It is Fine in gnat form, granting it a +16 size bonus on Hide checks.  A ker remains in one form until it chooses to take the other form. A change in form cannot be dispelled, nor does a ker revert to any particular form when killed. A true seeing spell reveals both forms simultaneously.


Skills: 60
Hide 12, Knowledge (religion) 4, Listen 5, Move Silently 12, Search 10, Spot 5, Survival 12?

Feats: 4 
Stealthy? Track? Weapon Finesse?


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## freyar (Mar 19, 2008)

Looks good to me.  Maybe Ability Focus (bad luck) for the last feat?


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## Shade (Mar 19, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Looks good to me.  Maybe Ability Focus (bad luck) for the last feat?




Bad luck is currently rolled into the larger ability "scourge of keres", so how about Ablity Focus (scourge of keres)?


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## freyar (Mar 19, 2008)

More free DC boosts are fine by me!


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 20, 2008)

I'd vote for switching Stealthy and Track for Combat Expertise and Improved Disarm or Improved Trip, myself. Since it's all about tracking people down, giving it Track as a bonus feat doesn't seem too unreasonable.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 20, 2008)

I'd be fine with those feat changes, though I do think Track should be a bonus feat if not one of the regular ones.


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2008)

Updated.

Manueverability?

Scourge damage?  Stick with the 1d8?  1d6 like whip-dagger?

Advancement:  10-18 HD (Medium); 19-27 HD (Large)?  [Large to account for the hill giant mention]

CR: 6?  (they're slightly deadlier than a CR 5 mummy)

A ker is 5 to 6 feet tall and weighs x pounds.


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## freyar (Mar 20, 2008)

I'd say average maneuverability.

1d8 is fine, advancement and CR look good.

100-150 lb?  The should be a little on the light side.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 20, 2008)

I agree with all that freyar has said, although I'm on the fence on average versus good maneuverability.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2008)

Updated.

Pay close attention to the attack lines and scourge entry.  Note that the modifiers include the attack and damage bonuses from it functioning as a +1 weapon.

I think average maneuverability should suffice, since nothing seems to indicate that it hovers or prefers to attack from the air, and it can always take gnat form for perfect flight.

If that all looks correct, are we finished?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 20, 2008)

I'm convinced of average maneuverability... and I think we're done.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 21, 2008)

Looks done to me, too.


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## Shade (Mar 21, 2008)

Next!

*Ka*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Desert, rivers, subterranean
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary or small bands
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: Spirit food
INTELLIGENCE: Average to Genius (8-18)
TREASURE: 50% A
ALIGNMENT: Lawful neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1 or 2-12
ARMOR CLASS: 1
MOVEMENT: 9
HIT DICE: 9 + 6
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2d10
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Fear, spellwriting, curse, statue animation
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Weapon resistances, spell immunities and resistances, spirit doors
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (5'-7')
MORALE: Fearless (20)
XP VALUE: 14,000

A ka is a kind of super-mummy. Once, the ka was a noble, king, or pharaoh. After death, the mummified body continued to live on in the tomb as an undead monster.  A ka is not necessarily evil. It attacks only when its tomb offerings are threatened or when under the control of a cleric. A ka looks like a normal mummy--i.e., as a bandage-wrapped corpse.

Combat: Like a normal mummy, a ka possesses supernatural strength that lets its blows do more than normal damage.  Instead of a rotting disease, however, a successful hit by a ka imparts a curse upon the victim. DMs may make up their own curses or may use the following table (roll 1d20; all curses last until removed):

1-3: Ill luck. All future rolls for the cursed individual are -l on a roll of 1, -2 on a roll of 2, or -3 on a roll of 3. 
4-7: Withering touch. An arm or leg withers and becomes useless. (4 = right arm, 5 = left arm, 6 = right leg, 7 = left leg; loss of a leg reduces movement by 3).
8-11: Mutation. A body part becomes mutated to some other form (8 = a leg, 9 = torso, 10 = an arm, 11 = head).
12-14: Alteration. An attribute chosen at random is lowered by -1.
15-18: Death wish. Extra damage is received in subsequent attacks. (15 = +1, 16 = +2, 17 = +3, 18 = double damage).
19-20: Cursed item. One magical item, chosen at random, loses its benefits on a 19 (as per cancellation). On a 20, the item actually becomes cursed (use the closest appropriate cursed item from the Treasure Tables; hence a sword +3 would become a cursed sword -2).

As with mummies, the mere sight of a ka may cause fear and revulsion in any creature.  A save vs. spells must succeed or the victim will be paralyzed with fright for 1-6 melee rounds. There are no bonuses to the die roll.  

A ka can be harmed only by magical weapons, which do only half normal damage.  Sleep, charm, hold, cold, poison, paralysis, polymorph, and electricity do not harm it. It suffers only half damage from fire or holy water. A raise dead spell turns a ka into a normal human (of 10thlevel fighting ability) unless the ka saves vs. spells.

A ka has a limited magical ability. A word written by it has the force of a command spell. It takes a full round to inscribe such a word. Characters need not see the written word for the spell to take effect.  

The ka is able to fragment its spirit.  These spirit fragments can inhabit special magical stone statues within the ka's tomb.  Treat these statues as stone golems. A ka can inhabit 1-4 statues at a time. If the ka's mummified body is destroyed, its will lives on in the statues. Inside a statue, however, a ka no longer possesses its curse or magical writing powers, and it may be affected by forms of attacks to which the mummified body is immune. Note that the ka has no power to activate any other statue but those in its tomb.

A ka may also walk through special spirit doors carved into stone or wood or painted on a wall when the body was buried. A ka could walk through a spirit door carved into rock, attack the party, then retreat back inside its tomb. 

A cleric has the same chance to turn a ka as he does a vampire.

Habitat/Society: A ka was once a living ruler. It still retains some friendliness toward character races, especially members of its own race and nation. Thus a human ka has an affinity for humans, a dwarven ka for dwarves, etc. This affinity is even stronger if, in the DM's opinion, the ka and character share the same cultural background.

If no attempt is made to steal its tomb treasures, a ka may be placated by showing it reverence and giving it additional grave goods. Such goods may vary from simple food to elaborate treasures. At the DMs discretion, a ka that has become placated may be asked questions that require simple yes-or-no answers. The greater the offerings, the greater the
knowledge such a ka may impart.  

Wealthy individuals are usually buried alone. A ka is, hence, generally encountered as a solitary creature. Sometimes, however, many graves are crowded into one tomb to discourage robbers. In this case, the tomb is shared by a related group of kas. 

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #198 (1993).


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## freyar (Mar 21, 2008)

Comparing this to the mummy lord is kind of interesting.  I'd say that we start with the mummy lord's stats and bump the int a bit.

Question: is cleric considered a melee oriented class?  I'd have thought it might be a non-associated class for the purpose of the mummy, but it seems to give full increase to CR on the mummy lord.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 21, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Comparing this to the mummy lord is kind of interesting.  I'd say that we start with the mummy lord's stats and bump the int a bit.
> 
> Question: is cleric considered a melee oriented class?  I'd have thought it might be a non-associated class for the purpose of the mummy, but it seems to give full increase to CR on the mummy lord.



Casting classes _shouldn't_ be considered associated for any monster unless they have any inherent spellcasting. This does not mean that this is how CRs were adjudicated in the MM. Look to the aboleth mage and the illithid sorcerer for more evidence that the left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing when the 3.5 MM was published.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 22, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Casting classes _shouldn't_ be considered associated for any monster unless they have any inherent spellcasting. This does not mean that this is how CRs were adjudicated in the MM. Look to the aboleth mage and the illithid sorcerer for more evidence that the left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing when the 3.5 MM was published.



 Maybe that's why they've decided on the "exception-based" monster design philosophy --- that way neither hand needs to know what it is doing with respect to the other rules.  That's certainly why they nuked FR; they said "it was too hard for our designers to learn the setting."  

Back to the ka.  Seems like the mummy lord didn't properly use the elite array and two ability boosts, either, so maybe that's not the best place to start.  A dread mummy from Advanced Bestiary might be more interesting.  Compared to the normal mummy, that's Dex +4, Int +6.  So we could go with Str 24, Dex 14, Con -, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 15 (I bumped Wis on the mummy to get odd and even scores right).  

Of course, there's the important question: monster or template?  I'm thinking monster, like the mummy, but I have no objection either way.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 22, 2008)

I think ka should be a template, and I'd say bump the Charisma.

Do we want to keep the ka's curse template as is? It's really weird design, and I have a feeling that it'll take up a lot of our energy on this conversion.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 23, 2008)

For a template, ability bonuses Str +14, Dex +2, Con -, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +8?  Or is that too much?  Let's let Shade vote.

Edit: Regarding the table, I think we should keep it as a table, since the troll mutation table was kind of fun.  This one is kind of wonky, though, so I think we need to simplify it quite a bit.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 23, 2008)

Wait... did I say it should be a template? My apologies. I think it _shouldn't_ be a template. Sorry about that.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 23, 2008)

Ah, well, let's go with Str 24, Dex 14, Con -, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 19 or something.  I added comments about the table above.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 23, 2008)

I agree that a table should be kept, but I think that the table we have needs significant paring down to make it workable. It's a weird one.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 24, 2008)

OK, so it's not a template.

I think the ability scores are a good start, but I'd like to see a bit higher Int.  How about:

Str 24, Dex 14, Con -, Int 16, Wis 15, Cha 19?

This is still less than the true "super-mummy", the hunefer, which has Int 18.

I agree that the random table is too complex.  Perhaps we should give it its choice of curses?  Or list the various curses, and say that each ka can use one specific curse?

We can also look at the greater mummy template in Deities & Demigods for further inspiration.


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## freyar (Mar 24, 2008)

Those scores seem fine.  

I'd say we make a list of curses and say that each ka can choose to use any of some number of them, kind of like the ghost template.  That's probably the simplest.  Edit: or just make a simplified table for rolling on a d6 or d8 or something.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 24, 2008)

I think a d8 of curses would work nicely.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 25, 2008)

Added to Homebrews, using mummy information as placeholders.

First, is 9 HD enough?  A standard mummy is 8 HD.  The 2e mummy was 6 HD, so to maintain the difference, the ka should be at least 11 HD.

Also, Strength is currently equal to a standard mummy.  Should we increase it a tad, since compared to the 2e mummy, it did 2d10 vs. the mummy's 1d12.

AC was 2 better than standard 2e mummy.  Currently, with the increased Dex, it is exactly 2 higher.  Did we want higher natural armor as well?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 25, 2008)

I say:

11 HD for the ka.

Higher strength for the ka.

Give it a small boost to its natural armor, maybe a +2. AC has devalued somewhat from 2nd to 3rd edition, so...

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 25, 2008)

Let's go with 11HD.

I'd say either Str +4 or increase the slam damage by a step (maybe favoring the latter).

I'm wishy-washy on natural armor.  Maybe an additional +1.


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## Shade (Mar 25, 2008)

Updated with 11 HD, Str +4, and +1 natural armor.



> As with mummies, the mere sight of a ka may cause fear and revulsion in any creature. A save vs. spells must succeed or the victim will be paralyzed with fright for 1-6 melee rounds. There are no bonuses to the die roll.




Despair unchanged from mummy?



> A ka can be harmed only by magical weapons, which do only half normal damage. Sleep, charm, hold, cold, poison, paralysis, polymorph, and electricity do not harm it. It suffers only half damage from fire or holy water. A raise dead spell turns a ka into a normal human (of 10thlevel fighting ability) unless the ka saves vs. spells.




Most of that is covered by undead immunities.  We already gave it DR 5/-.  Add immunity to electricty?



> A ka has a limited magical ability. A word written by it has the force of a command spell. It takes a full round to inscribe such a word. Characters need not see the written word for the spell to take effect.




If it's gonna take a full round, I think it should function as greater command.  Thoughts?



> The ka is able to fragment its spirit. These spirit fragments can inhabit special magical stone statues within the ka's tomb. Treat these statues as stone golems. A ka can inhabit 1-4 statues at a time. If the ka's mummified body is destroyed, its will lives on in the statues. Inside a statue, however, a ka no longer possesses its curse or magical writing powers, and it may be affected by forms of attacks to which the mummified body is immune. Note that the ka has no power to activate any other statue but those in its tomb.




Fun!

It sounds like it needs something akin to a proto-dracolich.



> A ka may also walk through special spirit doors carved into stone or wood or painted on a wall when the body was buried. A ka could walk through a spirit door carved into rock, attack the party, then retreat back inside its tomb.




Similar to phase door?



> A cleric has the same chance to turn a ka as he does a vampire.




Add +4 turn resistance (like a vampire)


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 26, 2008)

Phase door: makes sense.

Electricity immunity is good, but we should also add fire resistance 10.

I think we should change the written command to something more like a symbol spell, either pain or weakness. Written greater command is weird. We could, alternatively, give it an actual greater command as a spell-like ability.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2008)

All that sounds good to me.  I also agree with changing the written command to a symbol.  Why not do both and also give it greater command as an SLA?  If it can essentially animate 4 stone golems, it needs to be a high enough CR to go with that.  Maybe we should even bump the HD.


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> All that sounds good to me.  I also agree with changing the written command to a symbol.  Why not do both and also give it greater command as an SLA?  If it can essentially animate 4 stone golems, it needs to be a high enough CR to go with that.  Maybe we should even bump the HD.




You raise a good point.  Stone golems are CR 11.  At best, this guy will be on par with them.  Perhaps a further HD bump is necessary.  We have a long way to go before we tread on the turf of the even-more-super-mummy, the hunefer, clocking in at a whopping 50 HD!

Perhaps we should decide on the target CR for the ka first, and work backwards from there.

As an aside, we can always limit it to 1 stone golem, and grant more with so many additional HD, too.


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2008)

Maybe the easiest is to give it 1 stone golem plus 1 per two additional hd (max 4)?

For the symbol, maybe fear, persuasion, or pain for the writing.  Do we want any limits on how many per day, or is the full-round action enough of a limiting factor?  Edit: symbols normally take 10 minutes, so should we lengthen the writing time?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 26, 2008)

If we wanted to keep the ka weaker, we could replace the stone golems with large animated objects.

And I think we should lengthen the writing time on the symbols and give it greater command.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> If we wanted to keep the ka weaker, we could replace the stone golems with large animated objects.




This is something we really need to decide, I guess.  It's a big power drop, though, if we use animated objects.  Were 2e stone golems significantly weaker than 3.5?


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> This is something we really need to decide, I guess.  It's a big power drop, though, if we use animated objects.  Were 2e stone golems significantly weaker than 3.5?




They appear essentially the same (same HD, same immunities, etc.)


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 26, 2008)

So if we want to keep the stone golems (which I think we do)... the ka's going to need a significant boost. Make the CR 15, work our way back? I say 15 because EL calculations are easier for 2 stone golems (EL 13+15 for the ka = EL 16) or 4 (EL 15+15 = EL 17).

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2008)

CR 15 sounds good.

Advancing a mummy to CR 15 gives 48 HD!  That's a bit much.

The CR 15 hullathoin has 16 HD.  The CR 15 deathshrieker has 18 HD. The CR 14 nightwing has 17 HD.  The CR 16 nightwalker has 21 HD. A CR 16 gravecrawler has 16 HD.  

So I'd say our target HD range is in the 16-20 range.


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## freyar (Mar 27, 2008)

I'm going to say we should go on the low end and pick 16 HD (though I could see 17 easily enough).  It seems to me that most of the ka's abilities are spell-casting in nature -- greater command, "summoning" stone golems, the symbols -- even though it's probably competent in melee too.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 27, 2008)

Let's go 17 HD. Just because.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2008)

Updated.

OK, so we're going with carving a symbol (fear, persuasion, or pain) spell?   

Greater command as SLA?

Animate 1-4 golems now that we've increased the HD?


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## freyar (Mar 27, 2008)

Yes, Yes, and I'd say 2 golems plus 1 more per 2 HD advanced.  Otherwise, I think the CR will probably go off.  What do you think?

Should we get to work on the curse table?


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2008)

Sounds good.



> Combat: Like a normal mummy, a ka possesses supernatural strength that lets its blows do more than normal damage. Instead of a rotting disease, however, a successful hit by a ka imparts a curse upon the victim. DMs may make up their own curses or may use the following table (roll 1d20; all curses last until removed):
> 
> 1-3: Ill luck. All future rolls for the cursed individual are -l on a roll of 1, -2 on a roll of 2, or -3 on a roll of 3.
> 4-7: Withering touch. An arm or leg withers and becomes useless. (4 = right arm, 5 = left arm, 6 = right leg, 7 = left leg; loss of a leg reduces movement by 3).
> ...




Ill luck should probably be a profane penalty to all ability checks, skill checks, saving throws, and attack rolls.

Withering touch should simply mimic the wither limb spell.

Alteration should probably deal ability drain to a random ability.


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## freyar (Mar 27, 2008)

The Tombraider's Curse (Su): Any time a ka makes a successful slam attack, its victim must make a DC X Will (?) save or suffer a curse.  Many who tried to raid a ka's tomb have suffered this grievous fate.  This curse may only be removed by X spells.  The curse is determined randomly by rolling on the following table:

Curse Table (1d8)
1: Ill luck.  The victim takes a -2 luck penalty to all ability checks, skill checks, saving throws, and attack rolls.
2: Withering Touch. As wither limb, someone fill this in!
3: Disfigurement.  The victim is horribly scarred and takes a -4 competence penalty to all Charisma-based skill checks.
4: Mutation. The victim's limbs take on characteristics of a different type of limb (for example, an elbow transforms into a knee, etc), so the victim takes a -4 competence penalty to all Dexterity-based skill checks.
5: Death Wish. The victim inexplicably moves into attacks and takes a -2 profane penalty to AC.
6: Dimwittedness. The victim's mind becomes incredibly slow and foggy, so the victim takes a -4 insight penalty to all Intelligence-based skill checks.
7: ?
8: ?


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## Shade (Mar 28, 2008)

2. Withering Touch:  The ka chooses to wither either the arms or the legs of the victim. Withered legs force a subject to fall prone while at the same time reducing the subject's land speed to 5 feet. Withered arms make it impossible for the subject to use objects or cast spells with somatic components.  A withered limb can be restored to normal by a successful dispel magic from a spellcaster with a caster level greater than the ka's.

7. Plagued by Vermin:  The victim is constantly assaulted by tiny, biting and stinging insects.  Spellcasting or concentrating on spells requires a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level). Using skills that involve patience and concentration requires a DC 20 Concentration check.  Additionally, creatures of the vermin type gain a +2 bonus on skill checks against the victim, and always attempt to attack the victim before any others in an encounter.


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## freyar (Mar 28, 2008)

Do you want to take the line "A withered limb can be restored to normal by a successful dispel magic from a spellcaster with a caster level greater than the ka's" to apply to all of the curses?

8. Shrinking: The victim is instantly reduced to 1/12 height (as the effect of a rod of wonder or the reduce person spell).

Do all these seem balanced?  I wondered if 3, 4, and 6 were too tough.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 28, 2008)

They seem fair to me. Now, how to get rid of these curses? Remove curse? Break enchantment? A mere dispel magic?

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 28, 2008)

How about same as mummy rot?

"To eliminate mummy rot, the curse must first be broken with break enchantment or remove curse (requiring a DC 20 caster level check for either spell)... "


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 28, 2008)

Going the mummy rot route seems right to me.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 28, 2008)

Agreed here, too.


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2008)

Updated.

For the Shrinking curse, would it be simpler to go with half height rather than 1/12?  That is how the reduce person spell currently works (half height, 1 size category reduction).


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## Garnfellow (Mar 31, 2008)

Great thread!

I haven't been around EN World much for a while now (lots of reasons, mostly 4e malaise). Nice to swing by and see such coolness.

For the curious, I've done conversions of a couple Moldvay undead:

Charuntes 
Skotos


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2008)

Good to see ya, Garnfellow!

Nice conversions, as always.


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## freyar (Apr 1, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Updated.
> 
> For the Shrinking curse, would it be simpler to go with half height rather than 1/12?  That is how the reduce person spell currently works (half height, 1 size category reduction).



 Well, my thought on the reduction curse was to make it just like the rod of wonder, but going half-height is fine, too.


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## freyar (Apr 1, 2008)

Yeah, nice looking conversions, Garnfellow.  I don't know if these are in our queue, but maybe we should just link to your site if they are.


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2008)

Updated.

How do these look?

Carve Symbol (Sp): As a full-round action, a ka may carve a special symbol on a surface. This functions as a symbol of fear, symbol of pain, or symbol of persuasion spell (ka's choice at time of carving).   Caster level Xth.  Save DCs are 14 + spell level.

Fragment Spirit (Su): A ka may fragment its spirit to inhabit stone statues within its tomb. These statues function as stone golems. While inhabiting a statue, the ka loses all its special attacks and special qualities but gains all the special abilities of the stone golems. If a ka is reduced to 0 hit points in its normal form, it can live on in these statues eternally unless they too are destroyed. 

A ka may inhabit two stone golems. For each 2 additional Hit Dice, it may inhabit an additional stone golem. Thus, a 21 HD ka can fragment its spirit to inhabit 4 stone golems.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will--phase door; x/day--greater command (DC 19). Caster level Xth. The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## freyar (Apr 1, 2008)

That all looks good.  Maybe CL 17th for the SLAs?  Let's go 3/day for greater command.  Finally, do we want to cap the ka to 4 stone golems?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 1, 2008)

I don't see why we should cap the spirit fragmentation, but I'd be okay with it getting capped.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> I don't see why we should cap the spirit fragmentation, but I'd be okay with it getting capped.




Ditto here.  Any strong reason for imposing the cap, freyar?


Skills: 7 at 20 ranks
Mummies have Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot 
Hunefers have Concentration, Jump , Knowledge (religion, the planes), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot

Feats: 6
Mummies have Alertness, Great Fortitude, Toughness
Hunefers have Cleave, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Great Cleave, Great Fortitude, Improved Critical (slam), Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Power Attack, Toughness, Weapon Focus (slam)

Organization: Solitary or x (2–12)
Mummies are "guardian details" or "warden squads"
Hunefers are "courts"

Challenge Rating: 15 still work?

Treasure: Standard (mummy and hunefer are both standard)
Type A works out to:
1,000-3,000 copper	
200-2,000 silver
1,000-6,000 gold
300-1,800 electrum or platinum
10-40 gems
2-12 art objects
Any 3 magic items

Kas speak x.  (The languages they knew in life?  Usually Common and regional tongues?)


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 1, 2008)

Use the hunefer's skills, but remove Spellcraft and Jump.

Feats: Ability Focus (curse), Cleave, Combat Expertise, Improved Critical (slam), Improved Trip, Power Attack

I like a court of kas, myself. And I think they should speak Common, Infernal, Draconic and regional tongues. 

The mention of "any three magic items" screams "double standard" to me.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2008)

That all sounds good, except I think we should replace Knowledge (the planes) with Knowledge (history) and maybe (religion) with (nobility and royalty).  Thoughts?

Double standard makes sense, considering they were rulers.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 2, 2008)

The knowledge swaps make good sense to me.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2008)

Updated.  Are we missing anything?


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## freyar (Apr 2, 2008)

Looks good.  No real need for a cap, other than the original text.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 3, 2008)

I think we're done here.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 3, 2008)

Le Grand Zombi means "the great zombie."  Le Grand Zombi would be a kind of king of the zombies. Unlike normal zombies, Le Grand Zombi would be intelligent and could even cast spells. It has been speculated that Le Grand Zombi is actually a kind of lich, the spirit of an extremely powerful magic-user/cleric who specialized in necromancy (magic dealing with the dead).

Le Grand Zombi
FREQUENCY: Unique
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -3
MOVE: 9"
HIT DICE: 13 (65 hp)
% IN LAIR: 25%
TREASURE TYPE: E
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-20
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spells
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +1 or better weapon to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 25%
INTELLIGENCE: Supra-genius
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
SIZE: M
PSIONIC ABILITY: 200
Attack/Defense Modes: All/all

Le Grand Zombi looks like the worst moldering zombie. It is able to control all skeletons and zombies (and all their undead variants), being a sort of lord of the undead. Le Grand Zombi's  main attack form is its ability to cast spells as if a 22nd-level magic-user/cleric. Instead of choosing 84 different spells, it is easier for the DM to consider Le Grand Zombi to have any
first-through sixth-level magic-user or clerical spell it needs. Higher-level spells for Le Grand Zombi follow:

Seventh-level clerical
Destruction 
Unholy word 
Wither

Seventh-level magic-user
Mass invisibility
Phase door
Power word, stun

Eighth-level magic-user 
Mind blank 
Power word, blind 
Trap the soul

Ninth-level magic-user
Imprisonment
Energy drain
Power word, kill

In addition, Le Grand Zombi has all the monster summoning spells (I-VII). The spells will only summon variants of skeletons and zombies as shown below: 

Spell Summons
I 2-16 skeletons
II 2-12 zombies, skleros, or shock bones
III 2-8 dry bones or hungry dead
IV 1-6 bloody bones
V l-4 walking dead
VI 1-4 gem eyes
VII 1-2 lesser colossi

If Le Grand Zombi attacks physically, it does 1-20 hp damage, but it prefers to use spells. Le Grand Zombi can only be hit by magical weapons, has 25% magic resistance, 200 psionic ability points, and all psionic attack and defense modes. Le Grand Zombi is in the "special" class for a cleric's chance to turn it away.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #138 (1988).


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 4, 2008)

Yikes. He's a tough customer. We'll have to give him more hit dice if we're keeping the 22nd level casting for two classes. And he's psionic! Although, really, I think we can sweep that part under the rug without much fuss.

Alternatively, we can stick to the original hit dice, and give him lower level casting. Much lower level, like maybe 7th-9th for both classes. At that level, I might be okay with letting psionics back in... but Le Grand Zombi is going to be really tricky to run in a game.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 4, 2008)

Let's raise the HD to allow for that level of spellcasting, but rather than giving it 22 levels in both classes, how about letting it cast as a 22nd-level sorcerer, and include appropriate cleric and domain spells as arcane spells?


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## freyar (Apr 4, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Let's raise the HD to allow for that level of spellcasting, but rather than giving it 22 levels in both classes, how about letting it cast as a 22nd-level sorcerer, and include appropriate cleric and domain spells as arcane spells?



 Sounds like the right approach.  Do you think 20 HD?  Do we want to keep or ditch the psionics?

Too bad summon undead isn't in the SRD, but we can mention that he uses a "variant summon monster" and put in a sidebar.


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## Shade (Apr 4, 2008)

20 will probably work.

I meant to comment on the psionics earlier.  I think we should move them to a "sidebar" describing a psionic variant.  Maybe "the zombie overmind"?


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## freyar (Apr 4, 2008)

Good idea on the psionic variant.

Any SLAs for this guy?  Seems like DR should be DR 15 or 20/magic (& a special material?).  But I'm not sure about anything else.  Do we want to tie him to normal zombies in some way?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 5, 2008)

Good call on the divine as arcane spells. I think the DR should be slashing + special material (how about silver?)

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Apr 5, 2008)

Well, the original took +1 weapons to hit, but DR/magic is probably not worth much at the likely CR.  I could see DR/slashing & silver; that's got a good tie to normal zombies.  How much DR do you think it should have?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 5, 2008)

DR 20. It can cast as a 22nd level caster; it's pretty intense.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Apr 7, 2008)

Summarizing: 22nd level sorcerer casting w/cleric & some domains as arcane spells
20HD
DR 20/slashing & silver
Sidebar for psionic variant
SR converted as usual from 25%



> It is able to control all skeletons and zombies (and all their undead variants), being a sort of lord of the undead.



Rebukes/commands undead as 20th level cleric or a special ability to control all skeletons/zombies within a certain distance?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 7, 2008)

Rebuke/command makes sense. Animate dead also belongs on its spell list.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2008)

Let's try to come up with some ability scores for this fella.

Int is Supra-Genius, so at least Int 19-20.

Cha needs to be at least 19 to cast its highest-level spells.

Looking at other zombie creatures and templates for inspiration:
Zombie:  Str +2, Dex -2, Int -, Wisdom 10, Charisma 1
Juju zombie:  Str +4, Dex +2, Int -4 (minimum 1), Cha +2
Corpse Creature:  Str +4, Dex -2
Tyrantfog Zombie:  Str 13, Dex 10, Con -, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 13


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## freyar (Apr 7, 2008)

He does a lot of damage with his melee (slam?), so let's give him decent strength, too.  AC is also good, which argues for good Dex, unholy grace, or a combination of the two.  How about Str 23, Dex 19, Con -, Int 27, Wis 18, Cha 28?  Dex and unholy grace then gives him the right AC, though we could easily boost it with something like mage armor.


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2008)

I'll try to Homebrew him shortly with those scores and we'll see how they look.

Something to chew on:

If he want to make him the king of all zombies, not just the shuffling single action kind, we could borrow some abilities from the variants.  Here's a few of note...

Speed: In addition to its land speed, a juju zombie gains a climb speed equal to one-half its base speed if it does not have a climb speed already.

Immunities (Ex): A juju zombie is immune to magic missles and electricity damage.

Blood Drain (Ex): If the bloodthirsty zombie scores a critical hit with its bite against a living creature, that creature takes 1 points of Constitution damage.

Disease (Ex): Any successful melee attack by a diseased zombie exposes the target to a disease (filth fever). Any creature making a successful unarmed or natural attack against a diseased zombie is similarly exposed (a character who grapples with a diseased zombie gets a -4 penalty on the save made to resist infection).

The fast zombie gains a +2 dodge bonus to AC.

Hunter zombies have the scent ability and gain Track as a bonus feat.

An unkillable zombie gains fast healing 5.

Sickening Cloud (Su): The fog that lingers around Tyrantfog zombies saps the endurance of creatures within it. A character who comes within 5 feet of a Tyrantfog zombie must make a DC 13 Fortitude save or take 1 point of temporary Constitution damage. A single character only needs to make one saving throw per encounter with these creatures. The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## freyar (Apr 7, 2008)

Hmm, could borrow things from the dread zombies, too.

I'd say that fast healing and the immunities might make sense.  Maybe some kind of aura like the sickening cloud, too, but I'm not so sure.

Another necromancy-related idea is to make part of his slam(?) damage negative energy.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 7, 2008)

Fast healing, immunities, and disease I all like. I think we should borrow a page from Green Ronin's dread zombies and give him improved grab plus brain eating.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Apr 7, 2008)

You know, I'm not so fond of the disease (not a strong opinion), but I do like the brain eating a lot.


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2008)

Mmmm...brains.

We could also look at the other zombielike beings from the same article that we haven't converted yet for inspiration.

I seem to recall a zombie lord in the Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale games that reminded me a bit of this guy.


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 8, 2008)

Le Grande Zombi should be able to pull from the Death, Destruction and Evil domains, I think. I could be persuaded to swap Destruction for Darkness or Madness if we wanted to pull from the SRD's "additional domains".

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Apr 8, 2008)

This guy is a real masher, so we could give him all 5 domains.   But if we restrict to 3, I think I like Death, Darkness, and Evil.


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## Shade (Apr 16, 2008)

Yeah, let's go with all five.    

Anyone wanna tackle the brain eating ability?


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## freyar (Apr 16, 2008)

Now you're really back! 

Can't think of anything with brain-eating in the SRD, but we can go with GRR's version:

Brain Consumption (Ex): When the dread zombie makes a successful grapple check to deal damage with its bite attack against a pinned or helpless living foe, the later must succeed on a Fort save (DC 10 +1/2 HD +Str) or die as the dread zombie consumes its brain.  Creatures immune to critical hits and those with multiple heads are not killed by this attack.

Can't really think of much to improve on this.  We could look up the illithid, also.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 17, 2008)

I agree that pinning/helpless opponents -> Str based Fort DC is the way to go. I liked it so much that I used it in my mi-go conversion:


Extract Brain (Ex) A dweller in darkness can remove a pinned opponent’s brain with the clever blades tipping its tail as a standard action. The pinned foe must make a DC 17 Fortitude save or have its brain removed; on a successful save, the victim takes 1d4 points of Intelligence drain from the trauma. A creature whose brain is removed is effectively dead, unless it does not require a brain (such as an undead) or has multiple heads. The brain itself is still, horrifyingly, alive; it is engulfed by the hollow within the dweller in darkness’ tail and preserved in an oily secretion for up to a week before it finally dies. The save DC is Strength based.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 17, 2008)

Excellent.  Tailoring those abilities to Le Grande Zombi...

Consume Brain (Ex) Le Grande Zombi can consume a pinned opponent’s brain as a standard action. The pinned foe must make a DC x Fortitude save or have its brain removed and devoured; on a successful save, the victim still takes 1d4 points of Intelligence drain from the trauma. A creature whose brain is removed is effectively dead, unless it does not require a brain (such as an undead) or has multiple heads. Le Grande Zombi gains x temporary hit points for each brain it consumes. The save DC is Strength based.

Does that look OK?  We can drop the temporary hp bit if you think that's too much.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 17, 2008)

This is Le Grande Zombi! There's not much that's too much.

5 temporary hp per ability points lost is standard, but this is a whole brain in one go - how many hp should it grant?

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 17, 2008)

25 temporary hit points?  And/or grant it increased speed and maybe a dodge bonus to AC for 1 minute?


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## freyar (Apr 17, 2008)

Sounds like a good amount, as it's more than is possible if the victim makes a save (we should remind people of the 5 temp hp per point of Int drain on a successful save).  I'd also give him +10ft base speed.  Don't know if he also needs the dodge bonus, but it's ok with me.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 17, 2008)

I say give him 25 hp and the speed, but the dodge bonus I'm iffy on.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 18, 2008)

Updated.

How about adding an aura that is essentially a permanent unhallow effect?   Or maybe one that causes fallen zombies within the radius to rise again?


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## freyar (Apr 18, 2008)

How about a create spawn aura?  Any corpse rises as a zombie if it spends a full round within 30 ft of Le Grande Zombi?

We should write up summon zombie.  Here's a start, but I'm not terribly happy with it:

Summon Zombie (Su): Three? times per day, Le Grande Zombi can summon 20? HD of zombies or skeletons as a summon monster spell.  This ability is the equivalent of a 7th level spell.


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## Shade (Apr 18, 2008)

We might be able to model the aura off this epic feat:

Zone of Animation [Divine][Epic]
You can channel negative energy to animate undead.
Prerequisites: Cha 25, Undead Mastery, ability to rebuke or command undead.
Benefit: You can use a rebuke or command undead attempt to animate corpses within range of your rebuke or command attempt. You animate a total number of HD of undead equal to the number of undead that would be commanded by your result (though you can't animate more undead than there are available corpses within range). You can't animate more undead with any single attempt than the maximum number you can command (including any undead already under your command). These undead are automatically under your command, though your normal limit of commanded undead still applies.
If the corpses are relatively fresh, the animated undead are zombies. Otherwise, they are skeletons.
Source: Complete Divine, p. 90, and Epic Level Handbook, p. 69.

Let's no limit the summon to just skeletons and zombies, as it was able to summon a wide variety of variant creatures originally.  At the very least, we'll need to expand it to include the other types of zombies.


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## freyar (Apr 18, 2008)

Should we just call the ability "Summon Undead" and give a list of appropriate monsters as if it's summon monster 7?  We can even pull this from the summon undead list if we go look it up, I suppose.

That feat looks good, let's do that.  Do we want him to burn a command attempt or just make it a continuous aura?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 18, 2008)

Continuous aura of animation... good! Combine it with a desecrate aura for more fun (and along the vein of Shade's suggestion for unhallow).

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 18, 2008)

Here's a stab at it...

Aura of Desecrated Animation (Su):  Le Grande Zombi is continuously surrounded by an aura of negative energy to a range of x feet.  This functions as a desecrate spell centered on Le Grande Zombi, who is considered to be a permanent fixture dedicated to a deity (thus granting a –6 profane penalty on turning checks, +2 profane bonus and +2 hit points per HD for undead in the area).  Additionally, all corpses within the area arise as zombies or skeletons (depending on the freshness of the corpse), under the command of Le Grande Zombi.


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## freyar (Apr 18, 2008)

I like it!  How about 40 ft?  That's double the range of a normal desecrate and should be big enough to provide contain quite a few corpses.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 19, 2008)

40 feet sounds good to me too.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 23, 2008)

Updated.

For the summon zombie ability, shall we model it off the summon ability of outsiders rather than simply summon monster spells?   That way he'd get them to hang around for an hour.


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## freyar (Apr 23, 2008)

I think that's a good idea; it's much simpler that way since we can limit the options more sensibly.  Maybe make it a ton of zombies, a moderate number of Large or Huge zombies, or a few of some more nasty kind of undead (nightshades, maybe)?


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## Shade (Apr 23, 2008)

What if we just limited to up to X Hit Dice of any type of zombie, including juju zombies, the variant zombies in the article in which he originated, and other variant zombies throughout the various sources.   Something like so...

Summon Undead (Sp): X times per day, Le Grande Zombi can automatically summon up to X Hit Dice of undead.  These must be zombies or a variant zombie (such as juju zombies, hungry dead, etc.) This ability is the equivalent of a 9th-level spell (CL xth).


This way, we can account for templates rather easily.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 24, 2008)

Accounting for templates is rather nice.

I say 3/day, 20 HD at a time.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Apr 24, 2008)

Good idea, and I agree with demiurge.  CL 20? Edit: or 22 to go with his spellcasting?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 24, 2008)

Let's go CL 20.

We don't have anything like a spell list for Le Grande Zombi yet, do we?

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 24, 2008)

Agreed on CL, and no spell list yet.


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## freyar (Apr 24, 2008)

Before we start this thing's monumental spell list, are there any SAs left?


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## Shade (Apr 25, 2008)

I don't think so.

Spells: Le Grand Zombi casts spells as a 22nd-level sorcerer and can also cast cleric spells and those from the Darkness, Death, Destruction, Evil, and Madness domains as arcane spells. 

Typical Sorcerer Spells known (9/8/8/8/8/8/7/7/7/7)
0th - 9 
1st - 5 
2nd - 5
3rd - animate dead, contagion, 2 more
4th - 4 
5th - 4 
6th - create undead, 2 more
7th - control undead, 2 more
8th - create greater undead, unholy aura, 1 more 
9th - wail of the banshee, 2 more


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 25, 2008)

From his domains: 

Armor of darkness at 4th, bolts of bedevilment at 5th, maddening scream at 8th.

Horrid wilting is a great 8th level spell as well, so we'd have to choose there. 

He should have some negative energy spells, like harm and inflict critical wounds, so he can heal himself.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Apr 25, 2008)

Hmm, the other domain spells at 9th level are pretty good.  Implosion, Power Word Kill, and Weird all seem like good options.  Maybe Implosion and Weird?


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## Shade (Apr 25, 2008)

Revising...

Spells: Le Grand Zombi casts spells as a 22nd-level sorcerer and can also cast cleric spells and those from the Darkness, Death, Destruction, Evil, and Madness domains as arcane spells. 

Typical Sorcerer Spells known (9/8/8/8/8/8/7/7/7/7)
0th - daze, detect magic, ghost sound, inflict minor wounds, mage hand, message, open/close, read magic, tough of fatigue
1st - chill touch, deathwatch, doom, inflict light wounds, ray of enfeeblement
2nd - desecrate, darkness, ghoul touch, scare, spectral hand
3rd - animate dead, contagion, haste, vampiric touch
4th - armor of darkness, enervation, inflict critical wounds, unholy blight
5th - bolts of bedevilment, mass inflict light wounds, unhallow, waves of fatigue
6th - circle of death, create undead, harm
7th - blasphemy, control undead, mass inflict serious wounds
8th - create greater undead, horrid wilting/maddening scream, unholy aura
9th - implosion, wail of the banshee, weird


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 25, 2008)

I think we should replace weird with something else. Too many save-or-dies at the 9th level. I say time stop instead. Also, circle of death is a terrible, terrible spell. Give it disintegrate if we want straight damage, but I think greater dispel magic would be much more useful.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 25, 2008)

Fair enough.  Updating...

Spells: Le Grand Zombi casts spells as a 22nd-level sorcerer and can also cast cleric spells and those from the Darkness, Death, Destruction, Evil, and Madness domains as arcane spells. 

Typical Sorcerer Spells known (9/8/8/8/8/8/7/7/7/7)
0th - daze, detect magic, ghost sound, inflict minor wounds, mage hand, message, open/close, read magic, tough of fatigue
1st - chill touch, deathwatch, doom, inflict light wounds, ray of enfeeblement
2nd - desecrate, darkness, ghoul touch, scare, spectral hand
3rd - animate dead, contagion, haste, vampiric touch
4th - armor of darkness, enervation, inflict critical wounds, unholy blight
5th - bolts of bedevilment, mass inflict light wounds, unhallow, waves of fatigue
6th - create undead, greater dispel magic, harm
7th - blasphemy, control undead, mass inflict serious wounds
8th - create greater undead, horrid wilting/maddening scream, unholy aura
9th - implosion, time stop, wail of the banshee


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## freyar (Apr 28, 2008)

Looks pretty good to me.  Is this guy basically done?


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## Shade (Apr 28, 2008)

Nope.  We've still got a way to go.    

Updated.

Armor Class: x (+4 Dex, +9 deflection, +x natural), touch x, flat-footed x

Slam damage?

Skills: 12 at 23 ranks

Feats: 7

Organization: Solitary or x (Le Grand Zombi plus x zombies)


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## freyar (Apr 28, 2008)

Well, a Medium zombie would have +2 natural armor and 1d6 slam.  What if we keep the same slam damage but bump natural to +4?  Is that enough AC?

Skills: Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (religion), Spellcraft, Concentration, Use Magic Device, Intimidate, Bluff, Appraise, Knowledge (local)?, Craft ? ??


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 28, 2008)

Wait a minute? They have a racial deflection bonus? In that case, no need for Armor of Darkness to be one of their spells. We should switch it out. 

+4 natural AC is pretty low, especially for something this badass. This would be mitigated by putting mage armor on its spell list (since its caster level is high enough for it to basically be on all day).

10+4+9+4+4=31, which is a nice AC all 'round, especially with that solid DR.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 28, 2008)

I'm not sure where that deflection bonus came from.  Probably a cut n' paste error.

+13 natural would be fine with me, or we can work in a deflection bonus if you want.


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## freyar (Apr 28, 2008)

Let's go with +13 natural and leave Armor of Darkness in the spell list.  

Have we remembered to add in the profane bonuses from the aura of desecrated animation?


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## Shade (Apr 29, 2008)

Updated.

What 1st-level spell shall we replace with mage armor?

Also, did we want to try to work more of these onto the list?



> Seventh-level clerical
> Destruction
> Unholy word
> Wither
> ...






> Le Grand Zombi is in the "special" class for a cleric's chance to turn it away.




+4 turn resistance like a vampire or lich?


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## freyar (Apr 29, 2008)

Well, I thought we were going to replace weird with time stop at 9th level, but maybe we should go with power word, kill instead.  That's even in one of his domains.  

Let's swap out ray of enfeeblement for mage armor.

Put destruction in for blasphemy at 7th level?

Not sure about the others.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 29, 2008)

I'm still fighting against the redundant death effects. Yes to time stop, no to power word kill. I'd recommend replacing chill touch with mage armor (ray of enfeeblement is a great spell even at high levels, whereas chill touch is wasted). 

Replacing blasphemy with destruction is a good idea. Yeah, I'm fighting against redundant death effects, but blasphemy is a notorious killer of parties and fun. 

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2008)

I'm fine with that.  I'm anti-blasphemy and its ilk, too.   Most. Annoying. Spell.

Mass invisibility could be interesting, allowing him to hide some of his zombie horde.

Thoughts on +4 turn resistance like a vampire or lich?


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## freyar (Apr 30, 2008)

Ok, so I guess we all agree on time stop rather than weird or power word kill, mage armor instead of chill touch.  Not sure about destruction or mass invisibility.  We really don't have enough spells known here.

+4 turn resistance is probably right.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 30, 2008)

Agreed to +4 turn resistance.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Ok, so I guess we all agree on time stop rather than weird or power word kill, mage armor instead of chill touch.  Not sure about destruction or mass invisibility.  We really don't have enough spells known here.




We can easily fix that problem using a few of his feats on Extra Spell.


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## freyar (Apr 30, 2008)

Speaking of feats, should we get down to those now?


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2008)

Sure thing.

It looks like we'll need two Extra Spell feats.  That leaves 5 more.  I'd like to see Improved Critical (slam) and maybe even Improved Natural Attack (slam) to help get it closer to its original damage output.


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## freyar (May 1, 2008)

That sounds fine, but can't we just peg the base slam damage a little higher and save a feat?

Also, I don't see Extra Spell in the SRD.  Is it there somewhere?

I might nominate going for Spell Focus (conjuration) to get Augment Summoning, but I'm not sure.  Spell Focus (necromancy) and Spell Penetration seem like good choices, though.


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## Shade (May 1, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> That sounds fine, but can't we just peg the base slam damage a little higher and save a feat?




Absolutely, especially since this is a unique being.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Also, I don't see Extra Spell in the SRD.  Is it there somewhere?




D'oh!  It's not.  It's one of those "no brainer" feats that I'm surprised aren't in there.  We could probably still use it, though, since it doesn't really require explanation.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> I might nominate going for Spell Focus (conjuration) to get Augment Summoning, but I'm not sure.  Spell Focus (necromancy) and Spell Penetration seem like good choices, though.




I agree with the latter two.


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## freyar (May 1, 2008)

That from Complete Arcane or something?  I tried looking in the Netbook of Feats for an OGC equivalent, but the best I see is Unique Spell.  'Course, I don't know if using one of their feats is better than using something from a splat.

So, so far we have Spell Focus (necromancy) and Spell Penetration.  If we bump the base natural damage but use Improved Critical, we still have 2 or 4 slots depending on what we do about Extra Spell.  Greater Spell Focus?  Greater Spell Penetration?  Something metamagic?


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## Shade (May 1, 2008)

Yep, Complete Arcane, and I believe Tome & Blood before that.

If we really want to give him extra spells, but don't want to use a non-SRD feat, we could always just give him a special ability that grants him more spells known than normal for a sorcerer of his level.   Maybe something like:

Ancient Knowledge (Ex?):  Over its centuries of unlife, Le Grand Zombi has learned more spells than normal for a sorcerer of its level.


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## freyar (May 1, 2008)

Hmmm, well, that has the extra advantage of freeing up a couple of feats.   I'm fine with using a special ability.  Let's see if demiurge has an opinion on that.


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## demiurge1138 (May 1, 2008)

Ancient Knowledge sounds good to me. Make it one additional spell per level.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (May 1, 2008)

Ancient Knowledge (Ex): Over its centuries of unlife, Le Grand Zombi has acquire a wealth of arcane knowledge.  As a result, Le Grand Zombi has one additional spell known than normal for a sorcerer of its level.

Spells: Le Grand Zombi casts spells as a 22nd-level sorcerer and can also cast cleric spells and those from the Darkness, Death, Destruction, Evil, and Madness domains as arcane spells. 

Typical Sorcerer Spells known (9/8/8/8/8/8/7/7/7/7)
0th - daze, detect magic, ghost sound, inflict minor wounds, mage hand, message, open/close, read magic, tough of fatigue, 1 more
1st - chill touch, deathwatch, doom, inflict light wounds, mage armor, ray of enfeeblement
2nd - desecrate, darkness, ghoul touch, scare, spectral hand, 1 more
3rd - animate dead, contagion, haste, vampiric touch, 1 more
4th - armor of darkness, enervation, inflict critical wounds, unholy blight, 1 more
5th - bolts of bedevilment, mass inflict light wounds, unhallow, waves of fatigue, 1 more
6th - create undead, greater dispel magic, harm, 1 more
7th - control undead, destruction, mass inflict serious wounds, mass invisibility
8th - create greater undead, horrid wilting, maddening scream, unholy aura
9th - implosion, time stop, wail of the banshee, 1 more (energy drain?)


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## freyar (May 1, 2008)

I think you mean "one additional spell known per level."

0 - ray of frost?
2 - blindness/deafness or maybe see invisibility
3 - dispel magic seems like a good one
4 - crushing despair?
5 - permanency?  But I kind of like magic jar for an undead mastermind...

More suggestions later...


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## demiurge1138 (May 2, 2008)

2 - blindness/deafness
3 - ray of exhaustion
4 - crushing despair
5 - magic jar
6 - true seeing

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (May 2, 2008)

Ah, right, I was thinking about ray of exhaustion, too, so let's go with that.  Also, energy drain is good at 9th.


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## Shade (May 2, 2008)

Updated.

Back to feats...

So far we have Improved Critical (slam), Spell Focus (necromancy), Spell Penetration.  That leaves four more.

Greater SF and SP are both options.  Power Attack?  Quicken Spell?  Maximize Spell?


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## freyar (May 3, 2008)

Well, Quicken Spell is no good b/c he's a spontaneous caster, but I think Maximize is good.  Reach Spell also sounds good.  I think I like Greater SF, as well.  We could go with some kind of Craft Magic etc feat for the last one.


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## Shade (May 5, 2008)

I'd rather go with Greater Spell Penetration or another combat feat than a Craft Item feat.  I can't really see uber-zombie tinkering in its workshop on a belt or wand.


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## freyar (May 5, 2008)

True enough, so let's go for Greater SP.  How's it looking?


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## Shade (May 5, 2008)

Updated.

Organization: Solitary or x (Le Grand Zombi plus x zombies)
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: x

Le Grand Zombi stands 6 feet tall and weighs x pounds. 

Le Grand Zombi speaks x.


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## freyar (May 5, 2008)

Hmm, solitary or crowd (LGZ + 10 zombies)?
CR: 22
Double Standard Treasure?
200 lb?
Speaks Common, Abyssal, Infernal, Aquan, Auran, Ignan, Terran, Undercommon, and Draconic?


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## demiurge1138 (May 6, 2008)

I say 145 pounds. I sort of see him as skinny and withered, not hulking.
The language choices sound good.
Triple treasure. If a party takes him down, they'll have earned it.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (May 6, 2008)

How about increasing the crowd to 10-100 zombies?

Updated.

Anything else?


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## freyar (May 6, 2008)

Agreed to all that. 

The only thing I can think of was that we originally wanted to add a sidebar on a psionic variant.  Still game to do that?


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## demiurge1138 (May 6, 2008)

As a sidebar, we won't have to do much. Just say it's equivalent to a 22nd level psion, with x pp and can draw powers from the psion and psychic warrior lists. Maybe make a recommendation to the Stygian powers in Complete Psionic. 

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (May 6, 2008)

You mean you don't want to do a whole powers known list?   Anyway, sounds reasonable.


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## Shade (May 6, 2008)

Updated.

Does that psionic section look OK?


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## freyar (May 6, 2008)

Fine by me, and I guess LGZ is done.


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## demiurge1138 (May 6, 2008)

Print it, and move on.

Edit: Well, not quite. Maybe give its SR an actual number, not "CR+6"


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## Shade (May 6, 2008)

Fixed. Good catch!


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## Shade (May 9, 2008)

Skeletons could be used as the undead repositories for enchanted magical items.  The actual threat from such skeletons would come from the items carried, not so much the skeletons themselves. One simple but effective example of this is to give a skeleton a pair of enchanted gems for eyes. These gems would normally glow with magical light. As a general class, such skeletons could be referred to as "gem eyes." The actual creature names, however, would depend on the type of gem used for eyes (hence ruby eyes, diamond eyes, etc.).

*GEM EYES*
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-12
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVE: 12"
HIT DICE: 4 + 2
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Special
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spells
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Low
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
SIZE: M
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil

Gem eyes are special undead creatures created by powerful magic-users. Each skeleton has a pair of glowing gems for eyes, and each pair of gems holds one magical spell. The power of the eyes is linked to the "unlife" of the creature.  Hence, the magical power leaves the gems when the skeleton is reduced to zero or less hit points.

The magic-users who create gem eyes take special care to make the skeletal life force stronger than normal (hence the 4 + 2 hit dice). The magic-user must be at least 11th level. Instead of animating 11 skeletons with an animate dead spell, the magic-user animates one gem-eyes skeleton with more hit dice. Theoretically, any magical spell could be put into the eyes (using enchant an item or permanency), but two factors limit the gems' magical power. The spells used in the gems are normally fourth level or lower; and spells tied to the "natural" power of the gem types are easier to make permanent.

When designing varieties of gem eyes, the DM may wish to refer to pages 26-27 of the Dungeon Masters Guide ("Reputed Magical Properties of Gems"). The following eight varieties of gem eyes are based on a traditional system of magical symbolism that ties various stones to the so-called "Seven Magical Planets" (cf. Occult Philosophy or Magic by Henry Cornelius Agrippa, originally published in 1510). 

Ruby eyes have the burning eyes spell, which is essentially the same as the firstlevel magic-user spell burning hands (except the flames radiate from the gem eyes instead of the hands). Treat the spell as if cast by a 9th-level magic-user (hence it does 9 hp damage). This power is usable three times per day.

Sapphire eyes grant luck to their animator, if within 60' of such a magic-user. All saving throws and "to hit" rolls made by the spell-caster gain a +2 bonus. This power has no set limit on duration, though it ends if the gem eyes is destroyed.

Diamond eyes have the power to double their movements and attacks, the same as the third-level magic-user spell haste, three times per day.

Amethyst eyes have the power to cast illusions, as per the third-level magic-user spell phantasmal force. Two such illusions may be cast per day.

Opal eyes can appear to duplicate themselves, as per the second-level magic-user spell mirror image. This spell may be cast three times per day.

Pearl eyes cause opponents to fall asleep, as per the first-level magic-user spell sleep, up to three times per day.

Obsidian eyes radiate darkness, as per the second-level magic-user spell darkness 15' radius. This power may be used three times per day.

Emerald eyes weaken opponents, as per the second-level magic-user spell ray of enfeeblement, by touch. This power may be used three times per day.

The magic of the gemstone eyes is so powerful that it temporarily endows these skeletons with limited intelligence (enough to cast the spells effectively). The treasure of gem eyes lies in the value of their eyes themselves; each gem is worth 1,000 gp.

Gem eyes can be turned by clerics as if the creatures were ghasts. Any gem eyes turned away take their gems with them, of course.

If designing a unique variety of gem eyes, the DM should be careful which spells are put into the eyes. Since it takes at least a 9th-level magic-user to animate the dead, and an 11th-level magic-user to animate gem eyes, certain spells such as fireball or lightning bolt are simply too powerful for low-level adventures.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #138 (1988).


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## demiurge1138 (May 9, 2008)

Do we want to list the gems-> spells, or do we want to be more flexible? I see them as sort of an undead shield guardian.


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## freyar (May 9, 2008)

Should we start with the skeleton template and modify that?


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## Shade (May 9, 2008)

We can be as flexible as we like.  I see several options:

1.)  Modify the skeleton template and allow for any spells (within reason)
2.)  Modify the skeleton template and stick with specific gem types
3.)  Stick with the 4-HD Medium monster and allow for any spells (within reason)
4.)  Stick with the 4-HD Medium monster and stick with specific gem types

Preferences?


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## freyar (May 10, 2008)

I'd be closest to option 1.  Beef up the skeleton a little and maybe tie each type of gem to a school.  Allow spells up to 3rd-4th level but give lower level spells more uses per day to even things out.


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## Shade (May 12, 2008)

Anyone else have a preference?


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## demiurge1138 (May 12, 2008)

Freyar's suggestion strikes me as wise and understanding.


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## freyar (May 12, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Freyar's suggestion strikes me as wise and understanding.



  You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar. 

Improving on the skeleton template a little:

Size and Type:  The creature’s type changes to undead. It retains any subtype except for alignment subtypes (such as good) and subtypes that indicate kind. It gains the augmented subtype. It uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Hit Dice: Drop any Hit Dice gained from class levels (to a minimum of 1) and raise remaining Hit Dice to d12s. Increase the number of HD by 3?  If the creature has more than 20 Hit Dice, it can’t be made into gem eyes by the animate dead spell.


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## Shade (May 12, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Freyar's suggestion strikes me as wise and understanding.




I can't argue with such gentlemanly and scholarly praise.    



> Hit Dice: Drop any Hit Dice gained from class levels (to a minimum of 1) and raise remaining Hit Dice to d12s. Increase the number of HD by 3? If the creature has more than 20 Hit Dice, it can’t be made into gem eyes by the animate dead spell.




What if we just retained existing Hit Dice?  Also, I'm not sure if 3e animate dead should be allowed to create gem eyes at all.  Create undead may be more appropriate.


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## demiurge1138 (May 12, 2008)

Sounds good to me.

Edit: That is to say, freyar's version sounds good. I agree with Shade that _create undead_  is a more likely spell to make a gem eyes, but I like the idea of HD + 3 for the template.


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## freyar (May 12, 2008)

I agree with create undead being a better spell; animate dead was left as a place-holder from the skeleton template.  I went with dropping HD from class levels because these just really seem like augmented skeletons, not retaining any knowledge of their past life at all.


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## Shade (May 12, 2008)

OK, I'm convinced.


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## freyar (May 12, 2008)

Ok, so now we have

Hit Dice: Drop any Hit Dice gained from class levels (to a minimum of 1) and raise remaining Hit Dice to d12s. Increase the number of HD by 3? If the creature has more than 20 Hit Dice, it can’t be made into gem eyes by the create undead spell.

Speed:  Winged skeletons can’t use their wings to fly. If the base creature flew magically, so can the skeleton.  Other speeds are unchanged.

Armor Class: Natural armor bonus changes to a number based on the skeleton’s size:
Skeleton Size 	Natural Armor Bonus
Tiny or smaller +0
Small +1
Medium or Large +2
Huge +3
Gargantuan +6
Colossal +10

I left natural armor the same because the AC in the original text was the same as the Dex + natural armor of a normal human skeleton.  We could boost that, though.


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## demiurge1138 (May 13, 2008)

I think we should boost the natural armor of the gem eyes a bit. They should have the staying power to back up their spells.


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## freyar (May 13, 2008)

An extra +2 to natural armor?


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## demiurge1138 (May 13, 2008)

Maybe +3, keeping in theme.


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## Shade (May 13, 2008)

+3 sounds good.


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## freyar (May 13, 2008)

Fixing/updating what I had before and continuing:

Speed: Winged gem eyes can’t use their wings to fly. If the base creature flew magically, so can the gem eye. Other speeds are unchanged.

Armor Class: Natural armor bonus changes to a number based on the skeleton’s size:
Skeleton Size Natural Armor Bonus
Tiny or smaller +3
Small +4
Medium or Large +5
Huge +6
Gargantuan +9
Colossal +13

Attacks: A gem eye retains all the natural weapons, manufactured weapon attacks, and weapon proficiencies of the base creature, except for attacks that can’t work without flesh. A creature with hands gains one claw attack per hand; the gem eye can strike with each of its claw attacks at its full attack bonus. A gem eye’s base attack bonus is equal to one-half its Hit Dice. 

Damage: Natural and manufactured weapons deal damage normally. A claw attack deals damage depending on the gem eye’s size. (If the base creature already had claw attacks with its hands, use the gem eye claw damage only if it’s better.)
Skeleton Size  	Claw Damage
Diminutive or Fine 1d2
Tiny 1d3
Small 1d4
Medium 1d6
Large 1d8
Huge 2d6
Gargantuan 2d8
Colossal 3d8

I increased the damage by 1 step b/c the gem eye original damage was 1d6 for a Medium undead.  But we can go back down a step if you want.


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## demiurge1138 (May 13, 2008)

I like the damage up a step.


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## freyar (May 14, 2008)

Sounds good, then.  I'll put a placeholder in the Special Attacks slot and move on:

Special Attacks: A gem eye retains none of the base creature’s special attacks.  It gains the following special attack.

_Spells (Sp):_ To be filled in.

Special Qualities: A gem eye loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks. A gem eye gains the following extraordinary special qualities.

_Immunity to Cold (Ex):_ Gem eyes are not affected by cold.

_Damage Reduction 5/Bludgeoning:_ Gem eyes lack flesh or internal organs.

_+2 Turn Resistance:_ Treat a gem eye as having 2 additional HD for the purpose of turning, rebuking, and commanding attempts.

I kept the special defenses of the skeleton even though they weren't listed in the original.  I added +2 turn resistance because "gem eyes are turned as ghasts."


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## Shade (May 14, 2008)

All looks good so far.


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## freyar (May 14, 2008)

In that case, I'll leave the place holder for spells and go on.

Saves: Base save bonuses are Fort +1/3 HD, Ref +1/3 HD, and Will +1/2 HD + 2.

Abilities: A gem eye's Dexterity increases by +2, it has no Constitution score, and its Intelligence changes to 3.

Skills: Recalculate the gem eye's skill ranks based on its new HD and Int.

Feats: A gem eye keeps the feats of the base creature and gains one, usually Improved Initiative.

Environment: Any, usually same as base creature.

Organization: Any.

Since these are Intelligent, I decided to leave Wis and Cha unchanged, but we could peg them to 10 and 12 or something if you want.


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## demiurge1138 (May 15, 2008)

I like keeping the Wisdom and Charisma the same, but that opens up a can of worms with the spell save DCs, since I imagine that they'll be Cha based. Or will they? I can see determining the spell save DC on the minimum stat to cast the spell, like a scroll. Either that, or gem eyes with a high Charisma should receive a boost to CR.

What about creatures with more than two eyes? I can sort of envision multiheaded gem eyes getting multiple spells from different heads. Can we put that into a sidebar, or is that too big a can of worms to open?


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## freyar (May 15, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> I like keeping the Wisdom and Charisma the same, but that opens up a can of worms with the spell save DCs, since I imagine that they'll be Cha based. Or will they? I can see determining the spell save DC on the minimum stat to cast the spell, like a scroll. Either that, or gem eyes with a high Charisma should receive a boost to CR.




Well, hmm.  We can handle this as so: since Int comes from the magic of the gems, maybe Wis and Cha should also.  I'm going to go ahead and suggest that CL for all spell effects be 9th, so let's peg Wis 10 and Cha 14.  This is almost the same as the scroll idea, but it doesn't differentiate so much between spell levels.



> What about creatures with more than two eyes? I can sort of envision multiheaded gem eyes getting multiple spells from different heads. Can we put that into a sidebar, or is that too big a can of worms to open?




Oooh, this would be nice to do in a sidebar.  Maybe each extra head will be worth +1 CR or something.

Also, just thought of something: there's an FR skeleton thing with magic missile (either banedead or baneguard, can't remember) that I'll look up tonight for comparison.

Edit: It's the baneguard.  These are basically human skeletons with 4HD, Int 9, Wis 12, Cha 13, and the SLAs magic missile (every 3 rounds) and blink (every 10 minutes) (both CL 4), CR 2.  Interestingly, they get Combat Casting as a feat, so maybe we should suggest that instead of Imp Init.  Anyway, I think dropping one of the SLAs but bumping the CL might average out, so we might be aiming at a CR 2-3 critter for the lowest HD level.  What do you think?

Edit Edit: Looking at the other improvements we've made to this, maybe at least CR 3 at the minimum.


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## demiurge1138 (May 15, 2008)

CR 3 at minimum, and I like the Combat Casting/Skill Focus (concentration) suggestion.


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## freyar (May 15, 2008)

Let's try those again starting at Abilities based on the discussion in posts 200-202.

Abilities: A gem eye's Dexterity increases by +2, it has no Constitution score, and its Intelligence changes to 3, Wisdom to 10, and Cha to 14.

Skills: Recalculate the gem eye's skill ranks based on its new HD and Int.

Feats: A gem eye keeps the feats of the base creature and gains one, usually Skill Focus (Concentration).

Environment: Any, usually same as base creature.

Organization: Any.

Challenge Rating: Depends on Hit Dice. See table.
Hit Dice  Challenge Rating
4-5 3?
6-7 4?
8-9 6?
10-11 7?
12-14 8?
15-17 9?
18-20 10?

Treasure: None, but each gem from the gem eye's eye sockets is worth 1000 gp once the monster is destroyed.

Alignment: Always neutral evil.

Advancement: As base creature (or — if the base creature advances by character class).

Level Adjustment: None. 

Nothing special there, just pasted in the treasure from the original text.  CRs are still a guess.  Need to work out the Spell SA next.


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## Shade (May 16, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (May 16, 2008)

A formatting comment: you need spaces between the entries from Environment on down.

Looking back, we should write the HD line like this:

Hit Dice: Drop any Hit Dice gained from class levels (to a minimum of 1) and raise remaining Hit Dice to d12s. Increase the number of HD by 3 and round down if there are a fractional number of HD.  If the final creature has more than 20 Hit Dice, it can’t be made into gem eyes by the create undead spell.


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## Shade (May 16, 2008)

Updated.


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## freyar (May 16, 2008)

Ok, now for Spells.   Let me know how this looks.

Spells (Sp): Each gem eye has a single spell-like ability corresponding to a spell up to 4th level, caster level 7.  The number of times the gem eye may use this ability depends on the spell level, as follows: 0th - at will, 1st - every 3 rounds, 2nd - 3x/day, 3rd - 2x/day, 4th - 1x/day (but not more than once every 3 rounds except for 0th level).  

The school of spell is determined by the type of gem in the gem eye's eye sockets, as follows: ruby - evocation, sapphire - abjuration, diamond - transmutation, amethyst - illusion, opal - conjuration, pearl - enchantment, obsidian - divination, emerald - necromancy.  The task a gem eye is assigned usually depends on the spell-like ability it possesses.


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## demiurge1138 (May 17, 2008)

I don't think I'd give them the once every three rounds qualifier, but other than that, it looks good.


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## freyar (May 17, 2008)

I just don't want them to be able to whip out the 2nd or 3rd level spell more in a battle than the 1st level spell.  Maybe make the 1st level every other round and same for the others?

I'll note that I had to fudge a little on a couple of the gems (opal & obsidian), since they were repeated schools.


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## demiurge1138 (May 17, 2008)

I think every other round works better. They're not great melee combatants, after all.


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## Shade (May 19, 2008)

Lookin' good.  A few things, though...

Originally they had but a single spell.  



> Theoretically, any magical spell could be put into the eyes (using enchant an item or permanency), but two factors limit the gems' magical power. The spells used in the gems are normally fourth level or lower; and spells tied to the "natural" power of the gem types are easier to make permanent.






> If designing a unique variety of gem eyes, the DM should be careful which spells are put into the eyes. Since it takes at least a 9th-level magic-user to animate the dead, and an 11th-level magic-user to animate gem eyes, certain spells such as fireball or lightning bolt are simply too powerful for low-level adventures.




As it stands, a ruby eyes could employ a 7d6 fireball or lightning bolt 2/day.  In fact, it can open with a 7d6 fireball, wait a round, then unleash a 7d6 lightning bolt.  Too powerful?


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## demiurge1138 (May 19, 2008)

Hm. Maybe the 1/3 rounds is a good qualifier. Also, Shade, I'm not seeing where you're seeing the ability for them to have multiple SLAs.


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## freyar (May 20, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Hm. Maybe the 1/3 rounds is a good qualifier. Also, Shade, I'm not seeing where you're seeing the ability for them to have multiple SLAs.



 I'd be fine with going back to 1/3 rounds.  But, yeah, the way it's written, each is supposed to have only a single SLA.  Should we tone down the CL on these?


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## demiurge1138 (May 20, 2008)

I like the CL - the gem eyes is basically a walking scroll. We might have to up the CR, or maybe tie hit dice to the level of the spell in them.


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## Shade (May 20, 2008)

Sorry guys...I must have glossed over the word "single" when skimming the ability.

Ooh...I like the idea of tying the level of the spell to the Hit Dice.  Following the skeleton CR progression and adding 1 at each step, then comparing it to when spellcasters gain new spell level levels, yields...

3-4 HD = CR 2, 1st-level spell
5-6 HD = CR 3, 2nd-level spell
7-8 HD = CR 4
9-10 HD = CR 5, 3rd-level spell
11-12 HD = CR 6
13-15 HD = CR 7, 4th-level spells
16-18 HD = CR 8
19-20 HD = CR 9, 5th-level spells

How's that?


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## freyar (May 20, 2008)

I like that a lot.  Then we can go with CL=HD and every other round for the spells.  (Or CL = minimum for that level spell?)


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## Shade (May 20, 2008)

I think CL=HD should suffice, and is easier for the DM.


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## demiurge1138 (May 20, 2008)

CL = HD works for me.

Are we going to have the template work as currently written, or are we going to change it to account for the HD/CL thing? For example, could a human skeleton have 20 HD and a CL 9 spell, or is it always going to be 4 HD with a CL 2 or whatever?


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## freyar (May 21, 2008)

I'd actually prefer to change the HD part of the template to be the creator's preference (but always base creature's HD +3 as a minimum), if you both agree.


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## demiurge1138 (May 21, 2008)

This I like. Lets you have human skeletons still throwing down the hurt in the form of 7d6 fireballs.


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## Shade (May 21, 2008)

Sounds good.  How should we word that?


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## freyar (May 21, 2008)

How about the following?

Hit Dice: Drop all class and racial Hit Dice from the base creature.  The number of Hit Dice is assigned at the time of their creation (in conjunction with the spell-like ability of the gem eye, see below).  However, gem eyes always have at least 3 HD, and the create undead spell cannot create gem eyes of more than 20 HD.  Gem eyes have d12 Hit Dice.

Spells (Sp): Each gem eye has a single spell-like ability corresponding to a spell up to 5th level.  This spell-like ability may be used twice per day.  The level of the spell chosen for this ability is determined by the gem eye's HD, as indicated in the table below.  The Caster Level is equal to the HD.

The school of spell is determined by the type of gem in the gem eye's eye sockets, as follows: ruby - evocation, sapphire - abjuration, diamond - transmutation, amethyst - illusion, opal - conjuration, pearl - enchantment, obsidian - divination, emerald - necromancy. The task a gem eye is assigned usually depends on the spell-like ability it possesses.

HD   Level of Spell
3-4  1st-level spell
5-8  2nd-level spell
9-12 3rd-level spell
13-18 4th-level spell
19-20 5th-level spell

Challenge Rating: Depends on Hit Dice. See table.

Hit Dice Challenge Rating
3-4 HD   CR 2
5-6 HD   CR 3
7-8 HD   CR 4
9-10 HD CR 5
11-12 HD CR 6
13-15 HD  CR 7
16-18 HD  CR 8
19-20 HD  CR 9


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## Shade (May 21, 2008)

Updated.

Are we ready for a sample creature or two?


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## freyar (May 21, 2008)

If demiurge agrees with the changes above,  I think so.  Let's do a couple human gem eyes at a few different spell levels.   Maybe 1st, 3rd, 5th, choosing different spell schools each time.


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## demiurge1138 (May 22, 2008)

Sure! Sounds good.


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## Shade (May 22, 2008)

Start with the usual 5th-level human fighter used by some of the MM undead templates?

If so, we're looking at the elite array plus 1 ability score increase.


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## freyar (May 22, 2008)

Sounds good.  I guess start with best elite scores in Str and Con and put the score increase in Str before applying the template.


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## freyar (May 22, 2008)

Before we get into the samples, there are some things in the template I just realized need to be fixed.  Since the HD is no longer HD+3, the feats are not original feats +1.  I'm also not so sure about skills.  What if we do this?

Skills: Recalculate the gem eye's skill ranks based on its new HD and Int and assign new skill ranks.  The class skills of the base creature are class skills for the gem eye.

Feats: Reassign feats according to the new HD of the gem eye.  Use the base creature's feats first, then add more feats if necessary.  Gem eyes usually gain Skill Focus (Concentration) and Combat Casting as their first two additional feats.

Edit: Or maybe it is better to assign skills and feats as if a generic undead.

Skills: The gem eye has HD+3 skill ranks, which are split evenly between Spot and Listen.

Feats: Gem eyes have the following feats, gained in this order as they gain HD: Skill Focus (Concentration), Combat Casting, Ability Focus (Spells), Weapon Focus (claw), Alertness, Great Fortitude, and Lightning Reflexes.

Also, do we still want to leave the saves the same? I guess skeletons do, but that's wacky for the changing HD.


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## demiurge1138 (May 22, 2008)

I think we should give it new skills, but let it keep the feats of the base creature. Make Concentration a class skill. Giving it both Skill Focus (concentration) and Combat Casting strikes me as redundant.


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## freyar (May 23, 2008)

I guess I could see the argument that the feats are "reflexive" and left even though the mind is essentially created anew.  Ok, fair enough.  Forgot about Concentration, also.

Skills: The gem eye has HD+3 skill ranks, all of which are assigned to Concentration.

Feats might be easier if we redo the HD line again.  I've also realized that there are some odd situations where the gem eye might not qualify for its old feats due to changed ability scores.  What about this?

Edit to add:

Hit Dice: Drop all class Hit Dice from the base creature. The number of Hit Dice is assigned at the time of their creation (in conjunction with the spell-like ability of the gem eye, see below). However, gem eyes always have at least 3 HD or the base creature's HD, whichever is greater. The create undead spell cannot create gem eyes of more than 20 HD. Gem eyes have d12 Hit Dice.

Feats: Keep all feats associated with the racial hit dice of the base creature if it still meets the prerequisites.  If a creature of the gem eye's new HD would have more feats, add feats in the following order: Skill Focus (Concentration), Ability Focus (Spells), Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus (claw), Alertness, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes.


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## Shade (May 27, 2008)

Updated with the suggested changes.


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## freyar (May 27, 2008)

Guess we're ready for the samples, then.


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## Shade (May 27, 2008)

Starting with a 5th-level fighter with the elite array...

Ability scores are 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8, with one level increase.  Pick an order and we'll go from there.


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## freyar (May 28, 2008)

In this order: Str, Con, Dex, Int, Wis, Cha.  Then put the level increase into Str.


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## Shade (May 28, 2008)

OK, here's our base creature...

5th-Level Human Fighter
Medium Humanoid
Hit Dice: 5d10+10 (37 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: x (+1 Dex), touch x, flat-footed x
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+8
Attack: x
Full Attack: x
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. 
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: -
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +1, Will +1
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8
Skills: 24
Feats: 2 plus 3 fighter bonus feats
Environment: x
Organization: x
Challenge Rating: 5
Treasure: x
Alignment: x
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +0


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## freyar (May 28, 2008)

Ok, switch to 3d12 HD, change ability scores (Str 16, Dex 15, Con -, Int 3, Wis 10, Cha 14).  Feats: Skill Focus (Concentration), Ability Focus (Spells).  Skills: Concentration 6.  What spell should we give it?  Maybe magic missile for comparison to the baneguard or something a little more creative?


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## Shade (May 28, 2008)

How's this?

Pearl Eyes
5th-Level Human Fighter
Medium Undead (Augmented Humanoid)
Hit Dice: 3d12 (19 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 17 (+2 Dex, +5 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+4
Attack: Claw +4 melee (1d6+3)
Full Attack: 2 claws +4 melee (1d6+3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. 
Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 5/bludgeoning, immunity to cold, +2 turn resistance
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +3, Will +3
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 15, Con -, Int 3, Wis 10, Cha 14
Skills: Concentration +9
Feats: Ability Focus (sleep), Skill Focus (Concentration)
Environment: Any
Organization: Any
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral evil
Advancement: -
Level Adjustment: -

Spell-Like Abilities: 2/day--sleep (DC 15).  Caster level 3rd.  The save DC is Charsima-based.


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## freyar (May 28, 2008)

Looks good!


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## Shade (May 29, 2008)

Did we want to do one at 5th level, as suggested upthread?


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## freyar (May 29, 2008)

Oh, you know, in the above example, "5th level human fighter" shouldn't be in the statblock.

I'd like to do one or two at higher HD with more powerful spells.  Just take the above as a base, add feats from the list, and choose a spell.


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## Shade (May 30, 2008)

Here are a few more.  Look OK?

Ruby Eyes
Medium Undead (Augmented Humanoid)
Hit Dice: 5d12 (32 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 17 (+2 Dex, +5 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+5
Attack: Claw +5 melee (1d6+3)
Full Attack: 2 claws +5 melee (1d6+3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. 
Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 5/bludgeoning, immunity to cold, +2 turn resistance
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +3, Will +4
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 15, Con -, Int 3, Wis 10, Cha 14
Skills: Concentration +11
Feats: Skill Focus (Concentration), Spell Penetration
Environment: Any
Organization: Any
Challenge Rating: 3
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral evil
Advancement: -
Level Adjustment: -

Spell-Like Abilities: 2/day--scorching ray (+4 ranged touch). Caster level 5th. The save DC is Charsima-based.


Emerald Eyes
Medium Undead (Augmented Humanoid)
Hit Dice: 9d12 (58 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 17 (+2 Dex, +5 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+7
Attack: Claw +8 melee (1d6+3)
Full Attack: 2 claws +8 melee (1d6+3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. 
Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 5/bludgeoning, immunity to cold, +2 turn resistance
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +6
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 15, Con -, Int 3, Wis 10, Cha 14
Skills: Concentration +15
Feats: Ability Focus (ray of exhaustion), Skill Focus (Concentration), Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus (claw)
Environment: Any
Organization: Any
Challenge Rating: 5
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral evil
Advancement: -
Level Adjustment: -

Spell-Like Abilities: 2/day--ray of exhaustion (+6 ranged touch, DC 17). Caster level 5th. The save DC is Charsima-based.


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## freyar (May 30, 2008)

Those look great to me!


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## Shade (May 30, 2008)

Updated.  Another one done?


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## freyar (May 31, 2008)

Check!


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## demiurge1138 (May 31, 2008)

Looks like it to me!


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## Shade (Jun 4, 2008)

Next!  How about an easy one for a change?

A classic Walt Disney cartoon featured dancing skeletons, and animated skeletons often appear in cartoon features. Such skeletons not only dance but trade heads, fall into piles of bones, and reform into skeletons again. The skeleton variation herein called dry bones is inspired by the antics of cartoon skeletons. The name "dry bones" comes from the song of the same name ("The leg bone's connected to the hip bone," etc.).

*Dry Bones*
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 2-20
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVE: 12"
HIT DICE: 4; see below
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Non-
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: M
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil

Dry bones are the same as skeletons with one important difference. They can only be destroyed when all their bones are pulverized or otherwise completely destroyed. Each dry bones has 4 HD (with 32 hp)but attacks as a 1-HD creature A dry bones taking a total of 8 or more hp damage collapses into a pile of bones. After one round, the bones re-form into a skeleton and attack again. The process continues until the dry bones has taken a total of 32 or more hp damage in combat, at which point the dry bones falls apart forever.

Dry bones often masquerade as mere piles of old bones, being able to dismember themselves at will until they are destroyed. Clerics have the same chances to turn dry bones as they would zombies.

While dry bones have no treasure themselves, they often act as treasure guards.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #138 (1988).


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 5, 2008)

Was it the coffer corpse that has a similar "play dead" mechanic?


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2008)

Sure enough...

Deceiving Death (Ex): In any round in which a coffer
corpse is struck for 6 or more points of damage (whether the
damage bypasses the creature’s damage reduction or not),
the creature slumps to the ground, seemingly destroyed. If it
has fastened its death grip on a victim, it releases its hold
when is falls. A character viewing the coffer corpse’s destruction
can make a DC 20 Sense Motive check to see through
the ruse. Necromancers get a +2 competence bonus on their
check.

On its next turn, the coffer corpse rises again as if
reanimated. A creature viewing this “reanimation” is subject
to the coffer corpse’s fear effect (see above).


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## freyar (Jun 6, 2008)

Wow, that's just about perfect.  I think we just need to revise the numbers (and drop the fear effect).  Is there anything else about these different than normal skeletons other than the HD?  And do we think these should just be a modified skeleton template?


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## Shade (Jun 9, 2008)

I agree.  It should be a very simple modification to the skeleton template.

Here's a first attempt at a revision...

Deceiving Death (Ex): In any round in which a dry bones is struck for 8 or more points of damage (whether the damage bypasses the creature’s damage reduction or not), the creature slumps to the ground, seemingly destroyed. If it is currently grappling another creature, it releases its hold when is falls. A character viewing the dry bones's destruction can make a DC 20 Sense Motive check to see through the ruse. Necromancers get a +2 competence bonus on their check.

If so commanded, a dry bones can lie in its pile of bones state until a specific condition is triggered (such as "Lie here until a trespasser enters the room").


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 9, 2008)

We should state what sort of action it is to reform, and whether reformation provokes an attack of opportunity.


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## Shade (Jun 9, 2008)

Standard and yes?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 9, 2008)

It'd be cooler if it was move and no, methinks. That way, they could disassemble, reassemble and stab somebody in the back next turn.

Move and yes as a compromise, perhaps?


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2008)

No need to compromise...you convinced me to move and no.


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## freyar (Jun 13, 2008)

You guys have me convinced as well. 



> Each dry bones has 4 HD (with 32 hp)but attacks as a 1-HD creature



How do you want to handle that?  HD=base creature racial HD (min 1) +3?  Ignore the bit about attacking as 1HD and just use BAB as usual?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 13, 2008)

I like racial +3, and ignoring the part about attacking as one HD.


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2008)

Racial+3 sounds good.


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2008)

Here's a shot at the template, then.  I think all that needs tweaking now is the CR table.

Creating a Dry Bones

"Dry Bones” is an acquired template that can be added to any corporeal creature (other than an undead) that has a skeletal system (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

Size and Type: The creature’s type changes to undead. It retains any subtype except for alignment subtypes (such as good) and subtypes that indicate kind. It does not gain the augmented subtype. It uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Hit Dice: Drop any Hit Dice gained from class levels and keep only racial Hit Dice (to a minimum of 1).  Increase this number of HD by three and raise Hit Dice to d12s. If the creature has more than 20 Hit Dice, it can’t be made into a dry bones by the animate dead spell.

Speed: Winged dry bones can’t use their wings to fly. If the base creature flew magically, so can the dry bones.

Armor Class: Natural armor bonus changes to a number based on the dry bones’s size:
Size	Bonus
Tiny or smaller	+0
Small	+1
Medium or Large	+2
Huge	+3
Gargantuan	+6
Colossal	+10

Attacks: A dry bones retains all the natural weapons, manufactured weapon attacks, and weapon proficiencies of the base creature, except for attacks that can’t work without flesh. A creature with hands gains one claw attack per hand; the dry bones can strike with each of its claw attacks at its full attack bonus. A dry bones’s base attack bonus is equal to 1/2 its Hit Dice.

Damage: Natural and manufactured weapons deal damage normally. A claw attack deals damage depending on the dry bones’s size. (If the base creature already had claw attacks with its hands, use the dry bones claw damage only if it’s better.)
Size	Damage
Diminutive or Fine	1
Tiny	1d2
Small	1d3
Medium	1d4
Large	1d6
Huge	1d8
Gargantuan	2d6
Colossal	2d8

Special Attacks: A dry bones retains none of the base creature’s special attacks.

Special Qualities: A dry bones loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks. A dry bones gains the following special qualities.

Immunity to Cold (Ex): Dry bones are not affected by cold.

Damage Reduction 5/Bludgeoning: Dry bones lack flesh or internal organs.

Deceiving Death (Ex): In any round in which a dry bones is struck for 8 or more points of damage (whether the damage bypasses the creature’s damage reduction or not), the creature slumps to the ground, seemingly destroyed. If it is currently grappling another creature, it releases its hold when is falls. A character viewing the dry bones's destruction can make a DC 20 Sense Motive check to see through the ruse. Necromancers get a +2 competence bonus on their check.  The dry bones may reform after a full round as a move action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

If so commanded, a dry bones can lie in its pile of bones state until a specific condition is triggered (such as "Lie here until a trespasser enters the room"

Saves: Base save bonuses are Fort +1/3 HD, Ref +1/3 HD, and Will +1/2 HD + 2.

Abilities: A dry bones’s Dexterity increases by +2, it has no Constitution or Intelligence score, its Wisdom changes to 10, and its Charisma changes to 1.

Skills: A dry bones has no skills.

Feats: A dry bones loses all feats of the base creature and gains Improved Initiative.

Environment: Any, usually same as base creature.

Organization: Any.

Challenge Rating: Depends on Hit Dice, as follows:
Hit Dice	Challenge
Rating
1/2	1/6
1	1/3
2–3	1
4–5	2
6–7	3
8–9	4
10–11	5
12–14	6
15–17	7
18–20	8

Treasure: None.

Alignment: Always neutral evil.

Advancement: As base creature (or — if the base creature advances by character class).

Level Adjustment: —.


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2008)

Lookin' good.

Since undead increase +1 CR per 4 additional HD, I'd say we could just raise each tier by 1 and probably be within reason.


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## freyar (Jun 19, 2008)

So it should look like:

Hit Dice Challenge Rating
4–5 2
6–7 3
8–9 4
10–11 5
12–14 6
15–17 7
18–20 8

Or add +1 to all those CRs?


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## Shade (Jun 19, 2008)

You know, the ability doesn't add that much power, so I think the chart you printed still works.


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## freyar (Jun 19, 2008)

Ready for a simple example or two, then?


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## Shade (Jun 19, 2008)

Sure, sounds good.

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2008)

Ok, here goes nothin'.

Human Warrior Skeleton
Size/Type: Medium Undead
Hit Dice: 4d12 (26 hp)
Initiative: +5
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (+1 Dex, +2 natural, +2 heavy steel shield), touch 11, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/+1
Attack: Scimitar +1 melee (1d6+1/18-20) or claw +1 melee (1d4+1)
Full Attack: Scimitar +1 melee (1d6+1/18-20) or 2 claws +1 melee (1d4+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: --
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 5/bludgeoning, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to cold, undead traits, Deceiving Death
Saves: Fort +0, Ref +1, Will +2
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 13, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 1
Feats: Improved Initiative*
Environment: Any
Organization: Any
CR: 2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always NE
Advancement: -
Level Adjustment: -*


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## Shade (Jun 23, 2008)

Updated.

All done?


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## freyar (Jun 24, 2008)

Unless we want more examples, I think so.


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## Shade (Jun 24, 2008)

One should suffice for something so simple.  I'll get another conversion started soon.


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## Shade (Jun 25, 2008)

*King-wight*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any, usually subterranean
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary, but may have followers
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3/2 by weapon type or 1
HIT DICE: 12 +23 (77 hp)
THAC0: 4
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET! Carnivore (living beings)
INTELLIGENCE: Exceptional (15)
TREASURE: 50% A
ALIGNMENT: Lawful evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -1
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 12 +23 (77 hp)
THAC0: 4
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3/2 by weapon type or 1 by touch
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d8 + 5
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Energy drain, wight control, spellcasting, earthquake, magical items
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immunity to some weapons and spells
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (6’ - 7’)
Morale: Fearless (20)
XP VALUE: 30,000

A king-wight was once a powerful evil king. When he died, he became undead, continuing to rule the ranks of the walking dead. His death is often voluntary, a self-sacrifice made to gain a prolonged existence.

A king-wight looks like a well-preserved corpse. At nighttime, in artificial light, it can even be mistaken for a living being. It wears its favorite armor and carries its favorite weapons, and is often decorated with expensive jewelry. While a king-wight can appear almost alive, the stench of the grave follows it and gives it away.

Combat: A king-wight fights much the same after death as it did in life. It wears chain mail +3 and wields a sword +2 (any type possible). A king-wight was an exceptional human and continues to have excellent attributes even in death. Its attribute statistics are: S 18/50, D 17, C 16, I 15, W 13, Ch 15 (to undead only). These scores and the magical tems are already calculated into the king-wight’s statistics.

When it becomes undead, a king-wight gains many special abilities. A successful attack can drain two life levels from a victim, as per a vampire. Any victim completely drained of life points by the kingwight becomes a full-strength wight under the control of the king-wight.

A king-wight also has the ability to cast spectral force and confusion spells, one spell per round, without limit. It can teleport once per day, but only to or from its barrow home. When the king-wight is destroyed, the action causes an earthquake (as per the clerical spell, at the 14th-level of effect), centered on the king-wight's body, in 4-16 rounds.  Since a king-wight is often encountered in its underground barrow, such an earthquake can be especially deadly.

A king-wight is so powerful that any individual of a level lower than the kingwight must make a saving throw vs. spells or flee in panic from fear. The following spells or attack forms have no effect on a king-wight: charm, sleep, enfeeblement, polymorph, cold, electricity, insanity, and death magic. A raise dead spell turns the king-wight into a normal 12th-level fighter unless a saving throw vs. spells is made.  

A cleric attempting to turn a king-wight should use the "special" column. A king wight can be harmed only by magical weapons.

Habitat/Society: A king-wight retains its court, even after death. It is often surrounded by its faithful warriors, who were turned into wights by the king-wight and remain under their master's control. A king-wight encountered in its barrow usually controls 4-32 normal wights.

A king-wight delights in tricking the living. It often travels to someone's abode to flaunt its treasure and tempt heroes into searching out its lair. A king-wight may appear gracious and hospitable at times, but such appearances are illusory.  In reality, the king-wight hates to give up any part of its hoarded treasure and tempts heroes only as a ploy to trap them in its underground barrow, to either slay the heroes by the sword or turn them into wight slaves.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #198 (1993).


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## freyar (Jun 25, 2008)

Well, it might be worth looking at the Advanced Bestiary Dread Wight for similarities/inspiration.

Given that these are based on "exceptional humans," I'm leaning toward making these a template.  What do you think?


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## Shade (Jun 27, 2008)

Template is probably best, with a sample.  

Let's look toward ability scores...

Wight template (Savage Species): +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Wis, +4 Cha.
Gravewight template (Standing Stone): Str +4, Dex +2, Wis +2, Cha +4.

What modifiers do the dread wight template use?


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## freyar (Jun 27, 2008)

I'll have to look that up tonight.  However, based on the example stats listed in the original text, I'd say we need Str +4, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +2 or even more.


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## freyar (Jun 29, 2008)

The suggestion in the AB for a "wight template" is the same as that in Savage Species.
The dread wight gets Str +2, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4.  Like I mentioned in the last post, I think we should probably go at least this high.  

Suppose the king-wight example in the orginal text started with an elite array of Str 15, Dex 14, Con 13,  Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 12 (reasonable for a fighter and almost in line with the example stats S 18/50, D 17, C 16, I 15, W 13, Ch 15).  Tweaking to get even ability bonuses, this looks like Str +4, Dex +2 or +4, Int +6, Wis +2 or +4, Cha +2 to +4.


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## Shade (Jul 1, 2008)

Let's go with Str +4, Dex +4, Int +6, Wis +4, Cha +4.



> When it becomes undead, a king-wight gains many special abilities. A successful attack can drain two life levels from a victim, as per a vampire. Any victim completely drained of life points by the kingwight becomes a full-strength wight under the control of the king-wight.




Create Spawn (Su): Any humanoid slain by a king-wight becomes a wight in 1d4 rounds. Spawn are under the command of the king-wight that created them and remain enslaved until its death. They do not possess any of the abilities they had in life.

Energy Drain (Su): Living creatures hit by a king-wight’s slam attack gain two negative levels. The DC is X for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. The save DC is Charisma-based. For each such negative level bestowed, the king-wight gains 5 temporary hit points.



> A king-wight also has the ability to cast spectral force and confusion spells, one spell per round, without limit. It can teleport once per day, but only to or from its barrow home.




per the conversion guide, spectral force = major image.

So confusion and spectral force as at-will SLAs?  Greater teleport 1/day?



> When the king-wight is destroyed, the action causes an earthquake (as per the clerical spell, at the 14th-level of effect), centered on the king-wight's body, in 4-16 rounds. Since a king-wight is often encountered in its underground barrow, such an earthquake can be especially deadly.




This sounds like a death throes ability.



> A king-wight is so powerful that any individual of a level lower than the kingwight must make a saving throw vs. spells or flee in panic from fear.




Fear aura or frightful presence?



> The following spells or attack forms have no effect on a king-wight: charm, sleep, enfeeblement, polymorph, cold, electricity, insanity, and death magic. A raise dead spell turns the king-wight into a normal 12th-level fighter unless a saving throw vs. spells is made.




Most of that is handled by the undead type, but we can add in immunity to cold and electricity.

A cleric attempting to turn a king-wight should use the "special" column. A king wight can be harmed only by magical weapons.

We should also retain this...

Skills: Wights have a +8 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 2, 2008)

I think word of recall would be more thematically appropriate than greater teleport, but that cuts on it being able to teleport out. The fear sounds more like an aura than a frightful presence. 

Maybe call the death throes something closer to contingency. Doesn't necessarily sound like a "throe" to me.


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## freyar (Jul 2, 2008)

I'm ok with greater teleport, but we could do one each of greater teleport and word of recall per day.  That would allow it to get out, but it does give a little more freedom.

I'm actually thinking that the fear thing sounds more like frightful presence due to the HD restriction.

Could go with either death throes or contingency; the idea is pretty similar, right?

So turning resistance 8?  DR 10/magic?  Or put in some special material, given the magic weapons will probably be pretty common by the time anyone faces one of these?


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Liches and vampires only have +4 turn resistance, so I think we shouldn't exceed that.


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## freyar (Jul 2, 2008)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> Liches and vampires only have +4 turn resistance, so I think we shouldn't exceed that.



That's ok with me.   Ideas on natural armor?  I'll look at the dread wight again tonight; the regular wight has +4.  Maybe +8?


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2008)

Lich is +5, vampire +6.



> When the king-wight is destroyed, the action causes an earthquake (as per the clerical spell, at the 14th-level of effect), centered on the king-wight's body, in 4-16 rounds. Since a king-wight is often encountered in its underground barrow, such an earthquake can be especially deadly.




How's this?

Contingent Earthquake (Sp?):  4d4 rounds after a king-wight is destroyed, a contingent earthquake spell (caster level 14th) is triggered.  The effect is centered upon the king-wight's corpse.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 3, 2008)

The contingent earthquake looks good.

Incidentally, liches have a HD-dependant fear aura.


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## freyar (Jul 3, 2008)

Umm, I'll settle for +6 natural armor.  The dread wight doesn't seem to have any (?!).

Agreed on the earthquake, and I'm not too picky on the fear aura.


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## Shade (Jul 3, 2008)

Updated using the lich's fear aura and the +6 natural armor.

Treasure: Standard coins; double goods; double items (like a lich) or simply double standard?



> Habitat/Society: A king-wight retains its court, even after death. It is often surrounded by its faithful warriors, who were turned into wights by the king-wight and remain under their master's control. A king-wight encountered in its barrow usually controls 4-32 normal wights.




Organization:  Solitary, court (king-wight plus 2-12 wights), or barrow (king-wight plus 4-32 wights)?

CR +2?  It's about even with a vampire.


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## freyar (Jul 3, 2008)

Sp on earthquake is good, and so is always LE.  I like double standard treasure.  Organization and CR+2 sound good also.  Who's next?


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## Shade (Jul 3, 2008)

The sample guy.


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## freyar (Jul 3, 2008)

Ah, right.  The usual 5th level fighter?


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## Shade (Jul 3, 2008)

Let's go with 10th-level since this guy was a badass.

King-Wight, 10th-Level Human Fighter
Medium Undead (Augmented Humanoid)
Hit Dice: 10d10 (55 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 20 (+1 Dex, +3 chainmail, +6 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 19
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+13
Attack: +2 longsword +17 melee (1d8+5/19-20) or slam +15 melee (1d6+3 plus energy drain)
Full Attack: +2 longsword +17 melee (1d8+5/19-20) and slam +10 melee (1d6+3 plus energy drain)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. 
Special Attacks: Contingent earthquake, create spawn, energy drain, fear aura, spell-like abilities, 
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 10/silver and magic, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to cold, electricity, polymorph, and mind-affecting attacks, +4 turn resistance, undead traits
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +4, Will +3
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 14, Cha 12
Skills: 39
Feats: 4 plus 6 fighter bonus feats
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary, court (king-wight plus 2-12 wights), or barrow (king-wight plus 4-32 wights)
Challenge Rating: 12
Treasure: Double standard
Alignment: Always lawful evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +0


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## freyar (Jul 3, 2008)

3 skills at 13 ranks: Climb, Intimidate, and Ride?

Doesn't he get 5+6 fighter feats because he started out human?

Are we assuming it became undead at 10th level for the purpose of feat assignment?  Making that assumption: Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (longsword), Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Great Cleave, Weapon Specialization (longsword), Greater Weapon Focus (longsword), Mounted Combat, Ride-by Attack?  I think that works out with the assumed progression.


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## Shade (Jul 3, 2008)

freyar said:


> Doesn't he get 5+6 fighter feats because he started out human?




Good point.  That also means he gets 1 more skill per level, so how about adding Jump to what you suggested?



freyar said:


> Are we assuming it became undead at 10th level for the purpose of feat assignment?  Making that assumption: Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (longsword), Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Great Cleave, Weapon Specialization (longsword), Greater Weapon Focus (longsword), Mounted Combat, Ride-by Attack?  I think that works out with the assumed progression.




Yes, and those feats look good.  I'll combine them with what I posted above and update Homebrews.


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## freyar (Jul 3, 2008)

Looks good!  _Now_ I guess he's done.


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## Shade (Jul 7, 2008)

*Wraith-king*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any, often subterranean
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary, may have following
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: Carnivore (living beings)
INTELLIGENCE: Genius (17)
TREASURE: 50% H
ALIGNMENT Lawful evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -5
MOVEMENT: 12/36 if riding
HIT DICE: 15 +27 (95 hp)
THAC0: -1
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2/1 by weapon type, or 1 by touch
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1ds + 10
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Energy-drain gaze, wraith control, spellcasting, magical
items
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immunity to some spells and weapons
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 20%
SIZE: M (6'- 7')
MORALE: Champion (15-16)
XP VALUE: 32,000

Wraith-kings were once powerful individuals who so feared death that they made unholy bargains with an evil god. Each individual believed he was gaining immortality, but was instead turned into an undead monster. The body of a wraith-king has faded away completely. Inside the form of its armor, one can see only two hateful red burning eyes.

Combat: A wraith-king fights much as it did in life. It wears plate armor +3 and wields a sword +4 (any type). It is considered to have exceptional attribute statistics (S 18/00, D 18, C 17, I 17, W 15, Ch 17 (to undead only). These magical items and attribute scores are already calculated into the wraith-king's statistics.

A wraith-king can drain life levels by gaze alone at the rate of one level per round for any one victim within clear view in a 30' range (the victim must save vs. death ray each round to avoid this effect). Any victim completely drained of life levels becomes a full-strength wraith under the control of the wraith-king.

A wraith-king can cast either a permanent illusion or programmed illusion once per round, without limit. It can also cast a mass charm spell once per day. All spells are cast at the 15th level of ability. A wraith-king is so powerful that any individual of a level lower than the wraith-king must make a saving throw vs. spells or flee in panic from fear.

The following spells or attack forms have no effect on a wraith-king: charm, sleep, enfeeblement, polymorph, cold, electricity, insanity, and death magic. A wraith-king can be harmed only by magical weapons with at least a +2 bonus, and even these weapons do only half damage.

A wraith-king is even more powerful than a lich. A cleric of level 9-13 has a chance to turn a wraith-king on a roll of 19 or better. A cleric of level 14 + has a chance to turn a wraith-king on a roll of 16 or better. Because a wraith-king's undead power comes directly from a god, a raise dead spell will not affect a wraith-king.

Habitat/Society: A wraith-king lives in an eternal state of anger and hatred. Having been tricked by an evil god, the wraith-king hates the living and seeks, whenever possible, to convert them to undead to increase the wraith-king's following.

Even when not guarding its hoarded treasure, a wraith-king seeks out the living to punish them for the anguish it feels. It especially delights in using illusions to trick and tempt the living.

A wraith-king is, however, cautious. It considers itself immortal and, hateful as its undead state is, it nonetheless cherishes its unlife. It will flee if an attack appears to be going against it.

When encountered in its tomb/lair, a wraith-king has control of 4-24 wraiths.  When not encountered in its tomb, a wraith-king is likely to be riding a nightmare (see the Monstrous Compendium).

Note: Because wraith-kings are so powerful and so rare, it is suggested that a DM use them sparingly. A wraith-king became undead as the act of an evil god, so a good or neutral god often aids a cleric confronting a wraith-king. 
Such aid may take the form of a special magical item that protects the cleric or the entire party from some of the wraith-king's malign powers. An entire campaign, including visions, communion with a beneficent god or goddess, and the search for an appropriate undead-destroying magical item, can be built around a quest to destroy a single wraith-king.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #198 (1993).


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 7, 2008)

Ooh. We're going to want to shoot for the moon here. If they're supposed to be more powerful than liches, anyway.

First thing first: incorporeal, or not? They do have material weapons and armor.


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## Shade (Jul 7, 2008)

Is there a precedent for incorporeal (non-ethereal) creatures with ghost touch weapons and a Str score?

Alternatively, we could have them "animate" their suit of plate armor and wield weapons through it, yet remain incorporeal within.  I'm thinking ringwraiths from the LotR movies.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 7, 2008)

Shade said:


> Is there a precedent for incorporeal (non-ethereal) creatures with ghost touch weapons and a Str score?
> 
> Alternatively, we could have them "animate" their suit of plate armor and wield weapons through it, yet remain incorporeal within.  I'm thinking ringwraiths from the LotR movies.




I think Moldovay was thinking along the same direction. 

How about giving them an "incorporeal defense" ability? They are themselves corporeal, but are treated by spells and effects as if they were incorporeal.


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## Shade (Jul 8, 2008)

Sounds like a plan.



> MAGIC RESISTANCE: 20%




SR = HD + 5?



> It is considered to have exceptional attribute statistics (S 18/00, D 18, C 17, I 17, W 15, Ch 17 (to undead only).




Wraith has +6 Dex, +4 Int, +4 Wis, +4 Cha.

Maybe +6 Str, +6 Dex, +6 Int, +6 Wis, +6 Cha?



> A wraith-king can drain life levels by gaze alone at the rate of one level per round for any one victim within clear view in a 30' range (the victim must save vs. death ray each round to avoid this effect).




Energy drain gaze.

Retain Con draining touch of normal wraith?



> Any victim completely drained of life levels becomes a full-strength wraith under the control of the wraith-king.




Create spawn.



> A wraith-king can cast either a permanent illusion or programmed illusion once per round, without limit. It can also cast a mass charm spell once per day. All spells are cast at the 15th level of ability.




Spell-Like Abilities:  At will--permanent image, programmed image; 1/day-mass charm.  Caster level 15th.?



> A wraith-king is so powerful that any individual of a level lower than the wraith-king must make a saving throw vs. spells or flee in panic from fear.




Use lich's fear aura again?



> The following spells or attack forms have no effect on a wraith-king: charm, sleep, enfeeblement, polymorph, cold, electricity, insanity, and death magic.




Borrowing from the lich...

Immunities (Ex): Liches have immunity to cold, electricity, polymorph (though they can use polymorph effects on themselves), and mind-affecting attacks.



> A wraith-king can be harmed only by magical weapons with at least a +2 bonus, and even these weapons do only half damage.




DR 15/magic?  Maybe add a special material or good?



> A wraith-king is even more powerful than a lich. A cleric of level 9-13 has a chance to turn a wraith-king on a roll of 19 or better. A cleric of level 14 + has a chance to turn a wraith-king on a roll of 16 or better.




Lich's have +4 turn resistance.  +6 or even +8 for these guys?



> Because a wraith-king's undead power comes directly from a god, a raise dead spell will not affect a wraith-king.




Can only be restored to life by a cleric of the wraith-king's god?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 8, 2008)

I like the resistances/immunities, huge turn resistance, create spawn and SLAs. Is it mass charm person, or mass charm monster? I like that a wraith-king can only be returned to life by a follower of its own god.

As for DR, 15/good would appeal to me. I think it should have both a Con-draining touch and its negative level gaze. Perhaps its weapon attacks do a single point of Con damage/drain, no save?


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.



demiurge1138 said:


> Is it mass charm person, or mass charm monster?




Preferences?

Here are some things from the wraith and dread wraith we might wish to use:

Daylight Powerlessness (Ex): Wraiths are utterly powerless in natural sunlight (not merely a daylight spell) and flee from it.

Lifesense (Su): A dread wraith notices and locates living creatures within 60 feet, just as if it possessed the blindsight ability. It also senses the strength of their life force automatically, as if it had cast deathwatch.

Unnatural Aura (Su): Animals, whether wild or domesticated, can sense the unnatural presence of a wraith at a distance of 30 feet. They will not willingly approach nearer than that and panic if forced to do so; they remain panicked as long as they are within that range.

Both have Alertness and Improved Initiative as bonus feats.

It looks like Infernal as a bonus language as well.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 9, 2008)

Let's go mass charm monster. These guys are very high level, after all. And that lets them get armies of things more monstrous than orcs.

I like all of the above for the wraith king except for the daylight powerlessness. The ringwraiths(who we should use as examples of wraith king par excellence) run around in broad daylight.


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## Shade (Jul 10, 2008)

Updated.

Armor Class: Give them a deflection bonus to AC equal to their Charisma modifier?

Organization: Solitary, retinue (wraith-king plus 2-12 wraiths and 1 nightmare), or tomb (wraith-king plus 4-24 wraiths)?

Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature +x.  (They seem about on par with vampires at +2 or death knights at +3)

Treasure: Double standard?.

Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature +6?  (Vamps are +8, but are harder to permanently destroy)


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 10, 2008)

Deflection bonus? Yes!

CR? +3.

Oh! I forgot to mention earlier...I don't think the fear aura should be as weak as a lich's. The original text was "creatures with less HD than the wraith king". I think it should be more akin to a devil's fear aura (ie no HD cap).

LA should still be +8. They're easier to kill, but energy drain gaze!


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## Shade (Jul 10, 2008)

Updated.

Anything else or are we ready for the sample creature?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 10, 2008)

Time for a sample, methinks. How about something more interesting than a 5th level human fighter this time?


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## Shade (Jul 11, 2008)

How about a 15th-level "elflord".


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 11, 2008)

Sure!


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## Shade (Jul 11, 2008)

10th-level fighter/5th-level wizard or something else?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 11, 2008)

5th level fighter/5th level wizard/5th level eldritch knight?


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## Shade (Jul 15, 2008)

Here we go...

King-Wraith, elven 5th-level fighter/5th-level wizard/5th-level eldritch knight
Medium Undead (Augmented Humanoid)
Hit Dice: 15d12 (97 hp)
Initiative: +5
Speed: 20 ft. in full plate (4 squares); base speed 30 ft.
Armor Class: 25 (+1 Dex, +10 _+2 full plate_, +4 deflection), touch 15, flat-footed 24
Base Attack/Grapple: +12/+18
Attack: _+2 greatsword_ +20 melee (1d8+11/19-20 plus 1 Con drain)
Full Attack: _+2 greatsword_ +20/+15 melee (1d8+11/19-20 plus 1 Con drain)Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. 
Special Attacks: Constitution drain, create spawn, energy drain gaze (DC 21), fear aura (DC 21), spell-like abilities (CL 15th, DC 14 + spell level), spells 
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 15/good, darkvision 60 ft., eternal undeath, immunity to cold, electricity, polymorph, and mind-affecting attacks, incorporeal defense, lifesense 60 ft., low-light vision, spell resistance 20, summon familiar, +8 turn resistance, undead traits, unnatural aura
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +8
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 18, Con -, Int 22, Wis 14, Cha 19
Skills: Listen +4, Move Silently +8, Search +2, Spot +4 (includes -5 armor check penalty) plus 24 fighter skill ranks plus 20 wizard skill ranks plus 20 20 eldritch knight skill ranks
Feats: Alertness (B), Improved Initiative (B), Scribe Scroll (B), plus 6 normal feats plus 4 fighter bonus feats plus 1 wizard bonus feat
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary, retinue (wraith-king plus 2-12 wraiths and 1 nightmare), or tomb (wraith-king plus 4-24 wraiths)
Challenge Rating: 18
Treasure: Double standard (includes +3 full plate and +2 greatsword)
Alignment: Always lawful evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +8

Wizard Spells Prepared: (CL 9th; +16 ranged touch)
  5th—2;
  4th—3;
  3rd—4;
  2nd—6;
  1st—6;
  0—4.


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## freyar (Jul 16, 2008)

Let's start by thinking about feats.  On the bonus feats: Scribe Scroll is from Wizard, and I assume Alertness is from a familiar that isn't listed yet.  Is Imp Init from the template?  I haven't been following this very carefully.  As a start, let's give this guy Power Attack, Weapon Focus (greatsword),  and Quicken Spell.  Also, Weapon Specialization (greatsword).

And I assume that's a ghost touch weapon?


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## Shade (Jul 16, 2008)

Alertness and Imp. Init are from the template.

Scribe Scroll is from wizard.

The wraith-king isn't incorporeal, so it needn't be ghost touch.  Check out the "Incorporeal Defense " ability we gave it for details.


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## freyar (Jul 16, 2008)

Ah, now I get it.  Should'a read that more carefully.

Power Attack, Weapon Focus (greatsword), Quicken Spell, Weapon Specialization (greatsword), Cleave, Great Cleave, Still Spell, Imp Crit (greatsword), ...


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## Shade (Jul 16, 2008)

Lookin' good.  Let's add Spell Focus (necromancy) and maybe the greater version as well?  The fascination with necromancy could explain the elf's eventual fate.  

For skills, I'd suggest max ranks in Handle Animal, Intimidate, and Ride for the fighter levels; max ranks in Concentration, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (nobility and royalty), and Spellcraft for the wizard levels; and a mix of Concentration, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Ride, Sense Motive, and Spellcraft for the eldritch knight levels).

Suggested spells:
5th—quickened ray of enfeeblement, stilled bestow curse;
4th—stilled ray of exhaustion, 2 more;
3rd—stilled ghoul touch, 3 more;
2nd—stilled magic missile, stilled shocking grasp, 4 more;
1st—stilled touch of fatigue, shield, 4 more;
0—detect magic, ghost sound, open/close, read magic.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 17, 2008)

4th-stilled haste, stoneskin
3rd-protection from energy, suggestion, tongues
2nd-blindness/deafness (x2), stilled ray of enfeeblement, still true strike
1st-comprehend languages, feather fall, hold portal, ventriloquism


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## freyar (Jul 17, 2008)

All looking good.  Can we get an updated statblock to see what's left?


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## Shade (Jul 18, 2008)

Updated.

We need 1 more feat.

Currently it has +2 full plate and a +2 weapon.  Want additional magic items or to improve those two with additional pluses or qualities?


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## freyar (Jul 18, 2008)

Spell Penetration, maybe?

Spell Storing would be a nice property for the weapon.  I'm not so particular about the armor.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 19, 2008)

The armor could be mithral, for a lower ACP. If we give it a spell-storing weapon, we should swap out a 3rd level spell for vampiric touch.


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## freyar (Jul 19, 2008)

Good idea on the armor.  I'd put vampiric touch in for tongues, maybe, or else still it and swap it with the stilled ray of exhaustion.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 19, 2008)

Well, he can cast vampiric touch before donning his armor into his sword, so let's keep it 3rd. I think we should switch out protection from energy.


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## freyar (Jul 19, 2008)

Works for me.  That's about it, I guess.


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2008)

Great suggestions!

Updated.

Anything left?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 21, 2008)

Looking over the elflord, I've come to the conclusion that the spell resistance needs to be higher to have any sort of mechanical impact on the wraith-king. A CR 18 wraith-king has SR 20, which will be bypassed except on a 2 or lower by an 18th level caster, unless they have Spell Penetration, caster level boosting tricks, etc.


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2008)

Good point.   How about Hit Dice +14?  That should give them effectively CR +11, right?


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## freyar (Jul 21, 2008)

The original has MR of 20%, so should we aim for CR+4 or HD+7?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 21, 2008)

I prefer Shade's higher numbers.


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## Shade (Jul 22, 2008)

Let's go with the higher numbers and make it worthwhile.

Updated.

How're we looking?


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## freyar (Jul 23, 2008)

Looks ok to me, but I want demiurge to take a check, too.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 23, 2008)

Looks good!


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## Shade (Jul 28, 2008)

Oriental vampires

The ch'ing shih is a kind of Chinese vampire. Like the vrykolakas, the corpse is actually animated by a sort of demon who preserves the corpse from decay so that it can prey on the living. Unlike the vrykolakas, however, the demon animating the corpse is not entirely alien.

The Chinese believed that a person has two souls: the Hun, or superior soul which is aligned with the spirits of goodness; and the P'o, or inferior soul, which is aligned with the spirits of evil. If a body is not given the proper funeral rites, the P'o can seize control and animate the corpse. A particularly evil person may become a ch'ing shih by purposely separating the two souls.  The superior soul can be stored someplace outside the body (much like in the magic jar spell) while the inferior soul is given free reign. When the person dies, he will return from the grave to work evil. This type of ch'ing shih cannot be destroyed until the superior soul is first liberated from whatever physical object it occupies (usually a clay vase). The physical object must be broken to free the superior soul.

G. Willoughby-Meade, in Chinese Ghosts and Goblins, relates a story about four travelers who meet a ch'ing shih. The same story is also told by Pu Sung Ling in the book Liao Chai.  

Four travelers arrived late one night to the village of Tsaitien in Shantung province. They were extremely weary, wanting only to sleep for the night. But the village inn was completely filled. After some lengthy discussion and a bit of bribery, the travelers persuaded the innkeeper to find them some indoor sleeping place, out of the foul weather.

The innkeeper reluctantly led the four travelers to the only place available: a small, lonely house a little distance away where, he told the travelers, his daughter-in-law had recently died. In the one-room cottage, behind a heavy curtain, lay the uncoffined body of the woman. While the circumstances were somewhat gruesome, at least the house was warm and dry. The innkeeper gave the travelers straw pallets and blankets which were comfortable enough. Within minutes, three of the four travelers were fast asleep.

A strange sense of evil seemed to oppress the fourth traveler. In spite of his fatigue, fear prevented him from shutting his eyes for some little while. Yet he was so tired that he could not resist long and had just about fallen asleep when he heard an ominous rustling behind the curtain, which sounded as though somebody was stirring very softly.

Cold, with horror, he peered out from half-closed eyes and he distinctly saw a horrible, stealthy hand thrust itself from behind the curtain, which was noiselessly drawn aside. There stood the livid corpse gazing into the room with a baleful glare.  It approached softly and, stooping over the three sleepers, seemed to breathe upon their faces.

The man who was awake buried his head under the quilt, horror-stricken. He felt that the corpse was bending over him, but after a few minutes, as he lay in an agony of terror, he heard the same gentle rustling as before. This time the sound, made by the movement of the stiff graveclothes, moved away from him. When he cautiously peeped out he noticed that the corpse had returned to its bier and was stretched out stark and still.

He crept from his place and, not daring to even whisper, shook each of his comrades. But he could not make them move.  He then reached for his clothes, but hearing the gentle rustling sound once more, he realized that he had been seen.

In a moment, he flung himself back on the bed and drew the coverlet tightly over his face. A few minutes later he felt the awful creature was standing by his side.  However, after looking him over, it seemed to retire again. At length, half mad with fright, the man grabbed some clothes which he threw on and rushed barefoot from the house.

He again heard the corpse stirring, but now it sprang from its bier with a rush of speed. The man was able to bolt and bar the door just as the corpse leaped at it with demoniacal fury, As the man ran at full speed under the light of a waning moon, desperate to put as great a distance between himself and the haunted house as possible, he chanced to glance back and shrieked aloud to see that the corpse was not only following him -- it was hard at his heels and gaining rapidly. In desperation, he fled behind a large willow which grew by the side of the road. As the corpse rushed at him in one direction, he darted rapidly in the other.

Fires burned in the corpse's red eyes as it strove to catch its terrorized prey. Finally, as it suddenly swooped upon him with hideous violence, the traveler swooned and fell senseless to the ground. The corpse missed its aim so that it struck the tree, not the man, with all of its might.

At daybreak, both corpse and man were found. When the corpse was pulled away, it was found that it had embedded its taloned fingers so deeply into the tree that it could not free itself. The traveler, after many months of rest, recovered his health -- but his companions were found lying dead, poisoned by the fetid breath of the ch'ing shih.

The story shows several aspects of the ch'ing shih. It is not especially intelligent but is extremely persistent. It is not a true vampire, as it kills with its poisonous breath, not by draining blood. It attacks with a terrible, berserk fury which temporarily gives it increased strength.

A ch'ing shih can normally be destroyed by physical attacks. If the superior soul is, however, hidden in some magic container, then the creature will continue coming back to life to stalk its attackers. Normal means of destruction only temporarily destroy the body. Even if it is cremated and the ashes are scattered, the ch'ing shih will regenerate a new body after a day or so and return to the attack. If all else fails, it will take possession of some other corpse. If the magic container holding the superior soul is broken, then the ch'ing shih will return no longer. Whether or not a particular ch'ing shih is the type that has a hidden superior soul is, of course, left to the DM.

*CH'ING SHIH*
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-8
ARMOR CLASS: 3
MOVE: 12" (15" when berserk)
HIT DICE: 7
% IN LAIR: 10%
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 (2 with breath)
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Poisonous breath, berserk attack
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Low
ALIGNMENT! Chaotic evil
SIZE: M
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil

The main attack of the ch'ing shih is its poisonous breath, which can affect any one person within 10' of the creature. At the same time, the ch'ing shih can physically attack, doing 2-12 hp damage with a clawed hand.

During its berserk attack, which may be used once per night for 3-12 melee rounds, the ch'ing shih's strength is considered to be 18/00 (adding +3 to hit and +6 to damage with its claws), although the creature's normal strength is15.

A cleric has the same chance to turn a ch'ing shih as he would a spectre. An exorcism spell can also drive out the evil P'o animating the corpse, returning the corpse to its formerly inactive state.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #126 (1987).


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## freyar (Jul 28, 2008)

A few interesting things here.

The poisonous breath almost seems to be a ranged attack ("can affect any one person within 10' of the creature"), but cloth seems to stop it according to the story.

One (or two if we feel like it) claw attack.  

A rage ability, maybe like barbarian.

+2 turn resistance, like a spectre.

A variant with something that functions essentially like a phylactery.

Most of the original text reads like a monster, but I could see a template for the people who want to turn themselves into one.  Opinions?


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## Shade (Jul 29, 2008)

freyar said:


> The poisonous breath almost seems to be a ranged attack ("can affect any one person within 10' of the creature"), but cloth seems to stop it according to the story.




True, although that seems odd.  A 10-foot cone seems more appropriate, doesn't it?

It could be an inhaled poison, but even those don't appear to be stopped by clothing.



freyar said:


> One (or two if we feel like it) claw attack.




I'd go with two.



freyar said:


> A rage ability, maybe like barbarian.




Probably similar, but make it Cha-based for duration.



freyar said:


> +2 turn resistance, like a spectre.




Agreed.



freyar said:


> A variant with something that functions essentially like a phylactery.




Agreed again.



freyar said:


> Most of the original text reads like a monster, but I could see a template for the people who want to turn themselves into one.  Opinions?




I think most undead lend themselves better towards templates.  Heck, most of the ones in the monster manual were later templated in other sources.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 29, 2008)

Make it contact poison. If the man in the tale was completely covered, the poison would hit the cloth, not him, so he'd be unaffected. The entry doesn't actually say what the poison does... Con damage? Paralysis?


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## freyar (Jul 30, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Make it contact poison. If the man in the tale was completely covered, the poison would hit the cloth, not him, so he'd be unaffected. The entry doesn't actually say what the poison does... Con damage? Paralysis?



That's an idea, a 10 ft cone of contact poison.  Since the 3 victims in the tale die, I'd say some reasonable amount of Con damage.  Maybe 1d6 Con, 1d6 Con?  Or start lower and give 1d6/1d6 to the variant with the phylactery?


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## Shade (Jul 31, 2008)

1d6/1d6 sounds fine.  We could always raise the variant's to 1d8.

How about +4 Str, -4 Int, +4 Cha for the ability score modifiers?


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## freyar (Jul 31, 2008)

I'm waffling on raising the variant's damage.

Ability modifiers are ok, but I'd also be fine with adding +2 Dex.  I also think the variant maybe shouldn't have the Int decrease.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 1, 2008)

Yeah, the phylactery varient shouldn't take the hit to Intelligence.


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## freyar (Aug 4, 2008)

Ok, then:

Normal ability modifiers: +4 Str, +2 Dex?, -4 Int, +4 Cha
Variant: +4 Str, +2 Dex?, +4 Cha


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## Shade (Aug 5, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Aug 6, 2008)

Good start!  For comparison, a lich gets +5 natural armor (does not stack w/base creature), and a vampire gets +6 (stacks).  Go with something like the lich, maybe +6 but does not stack?


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2008)

Sounds good.  Updated.

Let's work on the rage/berserk attack.  

It raises the original versions from 15 to 18/00, which translates to Str 23 in 3e.   So, it grants a +8 bonus to Str.

As an undead creature, it lacks a Con score.  Perhaps we base the duration on its Cha score, and grant unholy toughness during the rage?

To avoid confusion with the other rage/frenzy abilities, maybe call it "fury of the grave" or "unnatural fury"?


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## freyar (Aug 7, 2008)

Either of those titles works for me.

I agree on basing the duration on Cha (maybe 3+Cha?).

Remind me, unholy toughness adds +Cha modifier hp per HD?

Reduce AC by 2 as standard for barbarian?  Bonus to saves?  Or just leave those off?


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## Shade (Aug 8, 2008)

How's this?

Fury of the Grave (Ex):  Once per day, a ch'ing shih can fly into a berserk fury.  During this fury, the ch'ing shih temporarily gains a +8 bonus to Strength, a +2 morale bonus on Will saves, and the unholy toughness ability (which grants the ch'ing shih a bonus to its hit points equal to its Charisma modifier x its Hit Dice, but these hit points go away at the end of the fury. (These extra hit points are not lost first the way temporary hit points are.) While in a fury, a ch'ing shih cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can it cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function. It can use any feat he has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, and metamagic feats. A fury lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the ch'ing shih's Charisma modifier. A ch'ing shih may prematurely end its rage. At the end of the rage, the ch'ing shih loses the rage modifiers and restrictions.  Entering a fury takes no time itself, but a ch'ing shih can do it only during its action, not in response to someone else's action.


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## freyar (Aug 9, 2008)

Looks pretty good.  Instead of


> Entering a fury takes no time itself, but a ch'ing shih can do it only during its action, not in response to someone else's action.



should we just say that it's a swift action?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 9, 2008)

Agreed to swift action. And I really like them getting unholy toughness while frenzied.


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## Shade (Aug 18, 2008)

Good suggestion.  Updated.

Organization: Solitary or x (2-8).  (Vampires appear in "gangs" or "troupes")

Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature +1?  (A vampire is +2, and has many more abilities)

Treasure: None?

Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature +x?  (A vampire is +8, a wight +4)


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## freyar (Aug 18, 2008)

I think "gang" sounds better for these.  They seem more bestial and thuggish.

CR +1 sounds about right; I could see giving them treasure from none to standard, really. LA should probably be closer to the wight than the vampire, but you've got Savage Species and I don't.  (Really need to get that sometime, huh?)  Edit: I guess the original goes for no treasure.  Also, do we need to add SR? (The original has standard magic resistance.)

Here's the lich's phylactery.  What should be changed, besides numbers?  I'd say the typical one should be a clay jar, and the prereqs should probably be easier.



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> An integral part of becoming a lich is creating a magic phylactery in which the character stores its life force. As a rule, the only way to get rid of a lich for sure is to destroy its phylactery. Unless its phylactery is located and destroyed, a lich reappears 1d10 days after its apparent death.
> 
> Each lich must make its own phylactery, which requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher. The phylactery costs 120,000 gp and 4,800 XP to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation.
> 
> The most common form of phylactery is a sealed metal box containing strips of parchment on which magical phrases have been transcribed. The box is Tiny and has 40 hit points, hardness 20, and a break DC of 40. Other forms of phylacteries can exist, such as rings, amulets, or similar items.


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## Shade (Aug 19, 2008)

freyar said:


> Also, do we need to add SR? (The original has standard magic resistance.)




I believe standard equals "none", so I don't think we'll need it.



freyar said:


> Here's the lich's phylactery.  What should be changed, besides numbers?  I'd say the typical one should be a clay jar, and the prereqs should probably be easier.




Clay Jar:  A greater ch'ing shih is created by trapping the portion of its soul aligned with the spirits of goodness within a clay jar, allowing the evil portions of the soul to have full control of the corpse.  As a rule, the only way to get rid of a ch'ing shih for sure is to destroy its soul jar. Unless its soul jar is located and destroyed, a greater ch'ing shih reappears 1d10 days after its apparent death.

A clay jar is Tiny and has x hit points, hardness x (3?), and a break DC of x (15?). Other objects to store the good soul of a greater ch'ing shih can exist, such as rings, amulets, or similar items.


Since most would-be ch'ing shih won't be spellcasters, I think we need to change the methods for creation.


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## freyar (Aug 19, 2008)

Let's make it hardness 5, since it's probably magically enhanced in some way.  20 hp, break DC 20?  I agree that the creation requirements need to be changed, but I do expect that a spellcaster needs to be involved somehow, since creation of one of these seems to be an intentional and magical process.

Also, I think the original text had the ch'ing shih reappearing after just 1 day, so let's shorten 1d10.  1 day is fine with me, and 1d4 would be ok too.


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## Shade (Aug 20, 2008)

Updating...

Clay Jar: A greater ch'ing shih is created by trapping the portion of its soul aligned with the spirits of goodness within a clay jar, allowing the evil portions of the soul to have full control of the corpse. As a rule, the only way to get rid of a ch'ing shih for sure is to destroy its soul jar. Unless its soul jar is located and destroyed, a greater ch'ing shih reappears 1 day after its apparent death.

The creation of a clay jar requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The creator must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of xth (7th?) or higher. The clay jar costs (60,000?) gp and (2,400?) XP to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation.

A clay jar is Tiny and has 20 hit points, hardness 5, and a break DC of 20. Other objects to store the good soul of a greater ch'ing shih can exist, such as rings, amulets, or similar items.


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## freyar (Aug 20, 2008)

I think that looks ok, and I'm fine with the creation requirements.  Let's call this a "soul jar" throughout but note that it is a clay jar in the first sentence.  So:

Soul Jar: A greater ch'ing shih is created by trapping the portion of its soul aligned with the spirits of goodness within a clay jar, allowing the evil portions of the soul to have full control of the corpse. As a rule, the only way to get rid of a ch'ing shih for sure is to destroy its soul jar. Unless its soul jar is located and destroyed, a greater ch'ing shih reappears 1 day after its apparent death.

The creation of a soul jar requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The creator must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 7th or higher. The soul jar costs 60,000 gp and 2,400 XP to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation.

A soul jar is Tiny and has 20 hit points, hardness 5, and a break DC of 20. Other objects to store the good soul of a greater ch'ing shih can exist, such as rings, amulets, or similar items.


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## Shade (Aug 20, 2008)

Updated.

Ready for a sample?


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## freyar (Aug 20, 2008)

Ready!  How about a 4th level barbarian?


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## Shade (Aug 20, 2008)

Getting started...

Ch'ing shih, 4th-Level Human Barbarian
Medium Undead (Augmented Humanoid)
Hit Dice: 4d12 (26 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 18 (+2 Dex, +6 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+9
Attack: Claw +9 melee (1d4+5) or greataxe +9 melee (1d12+7/x3) 
Full Attack: 2 claws +9 melee (1d4+5) or greataxe +9 melee (1d12+7/x3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Breath weapon, fury of the grave, rage 2/day
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., fast movement, illiteracy, trap sense +1, +2 turn resistance, uncanny dodge, undead traits
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +1
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 15, Con -, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 12
Skills: Climb +12, Intimidate +8, Jump +16, Listen +7, Survival +7, Swim +12
Feats: 3
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary or gang (2-8)
Challenge Rating: 5
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +3

Breath Weapon (Su): Once every 1d4 rounds, a ch'ing shih may breath a 10-foot cone of contact poison. Inital damage 1d6 Con, secondary damage 1d6 Con, Fortitude DC 13 negates.  The save DC is Charisma-based.

Fury of the Grave (Ex): Once per day, as a swift action, a ch'ing shih can fly into a berserk fury. During this fury, the ch'ing shih temporarily gains a +8 bonus to Strength, a +2 morale bonus on Will saves, and the unholy toughness ability (which grants the ch'ing shih a bonus to its hit points equal to its Charisma modifier x its Hit Dice, but these hit points go away at the end of the fury. (These extra hit points are not lost first the way temporary hit points are.) While in a fury, a ch'ing shih cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can it cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function. It can use any feat he has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, and metamagic feats. A fury lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the ch'ing shih's Charisma modifier. A ch'ing shih may prematurely end its rage. At the end of the rage, the ch'ing shih loses the rage modifiers and restrictions.


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## freyar (Aug 21, 2008)

Want to go with Power Attack, Cleave, and Great Cleave?

You know, maybe barb wasn't such a great choice.  What happens to the rage with Con -?


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## GrayLinnorm (Aug 21, 2008)

Actually, I don't think making this a template was a great choice.  Scott said that he didn't think every undead needs to be a template.


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## Shade (Aug 21, 2008)

freyar said:


> Want to go with Power Attack, Cleave, and Great Cleave?




Sure.



freyar said:


> You know, maybe barb wasn't such a great choice.  What happens to the rage with Con -?




That actually makes it a perfect choice, as it forces us to address that question.   We could add a note to the fury of the grave ability stating that creatures with rage/frenzy swap out their daily uses for an equivalent number of uses of fury of the grave.  Alternatively, we could state that they use their Charisma rather than Constitution for any rage-like ability.


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## freyar (Aug 21, 2008)

Hmm, multiquote not working today; have to do it manually.



			
				GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> Actually, I don't think making this a template was a great choice. Scott said that he didn't think every undead needs to be a template.



Not every undead, just most!   More seriously, I could see the argument that the normal ch'ing shih could be just a monster, but I think the "greater" variant kind of screams template.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> That actually makes it a perfect choice, as it forces us to address that question. We could add a note to the fury of the grave ability stating that creatures with rage/frenzy swap out their daily uses for an equivalent number of uses of fury of the grave. Alternatively, we could state that they use their Charisma rather than Constitution for any rage-like ability.




Let's swap it out.  So, in the fury of the grave description we should say "If the creature has a rage or frenzy ability, these are replaced with the same number of daily uses of fury of the grave."  Sound right to you?


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## Shade (Aug 22, 2008)

freyar said:


> Not every undead, just most!   More seriously, I could see the argument that the normal ch'ing shih could be just a monster, but I think the "greater" variant kind of screams template.




I'm generally of the mind that if it used to be another creature, then it at least should be considered as a template, while the undead of unknown origins or that spontaneous arise from negative energy, etc. should be standalone creatures.



freyar said:


> Let's swap it out.  So, in the fury of the grave description we should say "If the creature has a rage or frenzy ability, these are replaced with the same number of daily uses of fury of the grave."  Sound right to you?




That seems reasonable.  Barbarians need their own specialty undead.


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## freyar (Aug 22, 2008)

Does our barbarian need anything else, or are we basically ready to move on (once the change to fury is made, that is).


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## Shade (Aug 22, 2008)

Updated.


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## freyar (Aug 22, 2008)

I just noticed in the template "Fury of the Grave" entry that the "fury" is called a "rage" in the last couple of sentences.  Once that's fixed, I think we're done.


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## Shade (Sep 2, 2008)

Fixed.


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## freyar (Sep 3, 2008)

Looks pretty much done.  Did Moldvay do any more?


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## Shade (Sep 3, 2008)

freyar said:


> Looks pretty much done.  Did Moldvay do any more?




Many.  

I'll get another one going soon.


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## Shade (Sep 4, 2008)

Angreden
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any, especially subarctic and subterranean
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary or small bands
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Average
TREASURE: 20% B
ALIGNMENT: Any evil
NO. APPEARING: 1 or 2-16
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 4 +4
THAC0: 14
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d6 + 2
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Enfeeblement, fear
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immunity to some spells
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (5'-7')
MORALE: Fearless (20)
XP VALUE: 1,400

An angreden, based on Middle-English form, would mean "the state or condition of anger" or "filled with anger." An angreden is the walking corpse of an individual who died under a curse, or who was so filled with hatred and anger in life that he refused to lie still in his grave. An angreden has a blackened, bloated body with a huge, oversized head.

Combat: An angreden is considered to have 18 Strength, so it gets a +1 to attack and +2 to damage in combat, which has already calculated into its statistics. Its touch acts like an enfeeblement spell.  Victims of a successful hit must make a save vs. spells or temporarily lose 25% of their Strength scores (fractions rounded down). The gaze of an angreden acts as a fear spell. An. angreden's attacks are unsophisticated, being physical attacks with a club or hand-held rock.

An angreden is immune to sleep, charm, hold, cold, poison, paralyzation, and death magic. A raise dead spell destroys it. A cleric has the same chance to turn an angreden as he does a wight.

Habitat/Society: An angreden has trouble getting along with everyone, even after death. It is often solitary but may sometimes band with others for protection. Such bands are a snarling, quarrelsome lot.

An angreden may be lawful, neutral, or chaotic, but will always be evil. It exists only to vent its insensate rage at the world. It delights in harm for its own sake and, when not killing, will try to smash everything in sight.

Note: Strictly as a plot suggestion, DMs may wish to give an angreden the power to curse before being destroyed. Such a curse acts as a prophetic utterance, unless it is lifted with a remove curse spell. For example, an angreden might tell a character: "Horses will die under you" and that character would be unable to ride a horse until the curse was lifted. If an angreden is given a curse, the XP Value becomes 2,000 instead of 1,400.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #198 (1993).


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## freyar (Sep 4, 2008)

I'm going to say that this reads as a monster rather than template, but I could be persuaded otherwise.  

4HD seems a little low for the special abilities it has, maybe.  It does have +4 hp, so maybe we could give it unholy toughness or something or else boost the HD, just to get hp a little more in line with the likely CR.  Thoughts?


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## Shade (Sep 4, 2008)

Yeah, I don't see this one as a template.

Unholy toughness seems a good fit for this thing.


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## freyar (Sep 4, 2008)

Ok, then, abilities: Str 18, Dex 15, Con -, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 14 or thereabouts?


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## Shade (Sep 8, 2008)

Sounds good.  Added to Homebrews.



> Its touch acts like an enfeeblement spell.  Victims of a successful hit must make a save vs. spells or temporarily lose 25% of their Strength scores (fractions rounded down).




Borrowing from ray of enfeeblement, how's this?

Enfeebling Touch (Su):  Any creature struck by an angreden's melee touch attack takes a penalty to Strength equal to 1d6+1 per two HD of the angreden (maximum 1d6+5). The subject’s Strength score cannot drop below 1. 

Shall we add a save, since it doesn't require a ranged touch like the spell?



> The gaze of an angreden acts as a fear spell.




How's this?

Terrifying Gaze (Su): Panicked for 4 rounds (or shaken for 1 round on with a successful DC X Will save), 30 feet. The save DC is Charisma-based.



> An angreden's attacks are unsophisticated, being physical attacks with a club or hand-held rock.




Use a club and/or give them a slam attack?



> An angreden is immune to sleep, charm, hold, cold, poison, paralyzation, and death magic. A raise dead spell destroys it. A cleric has the same chance to turn an angreden as he does a wight.




Immunity to cold and mind-influencing effects?

Wights have no turn resistance, so none for angreden?



> Note: Strictly as a plot suggestion, DMs may wish to give an angreden the power to curse before being destroyed. Such a curse acts as a prophetic utterance, unless it is lifted with a remove curse spell. For example, an angreden might tell a character: "Horses will die under you" and that character would be unable to ride a horse until the curse was lifted. If an angreden is given a curse, the XP Value becomes 2,000 instead of 1,400.




Variant, or simply add to default creature?


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## freyar (Sep 10, 2008)

Yeah, let's give Enfeebling Touch a Cha-based Fort save.

The gaze seems good.

Let's give them a club and maybe an ability to use rocks as clubs without taking improvised weapon penalties.  Unsure about the slam.  Maybe.

Undead are already immune to mind-affecting, but cold is good.  No turn resistance.

Let's add this to the base creature.  But do we want to standardize the curse (make it a bestow curse SLA, maybe)?


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## Shade (Sep 10, 2008)

Updated.

How's this?

Final Curse (Su):  Upon reaching 0 hit points, an angreden may utter a curse as an immediate action.  This functions as a bestow curse spell (caster level xth), but does not require a touch attack and may only be directed upon the angreden's slayer.  A successful DC 14 Will save negates the curse.  The save DC is Charisma-based.

Skills: 21

Feats: 2

Challenge Rating: 3?  They're about on par with a ghast.

Treasure: Standard?  (Type B has a good mix of all types)

Advancement: 5-8 HD (Medium); 9-12 HD (Large)?

An angreden stands 5 to 7 feet tall and weighs x to x pounds. 

Angredens speak X.


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## freyar (Sep 10, 2008)

I like the curse! CL 4?

Skills: max Spot, Listen, Intimidate?

Feats: They're a little boring, but I think Power Attack and Cleave fit.

CR, Treasure, Advancement look good.

100-200 lb?

the language they spoke in life (usually Common).


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## Shade (Sep 10, 2008)

Updated.

All that's left is to determine the caster level for the curse.


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## freyar (Sep 11, 2008)

Looks good!  I suggested CL=4 (or really =HD for advancement purposes).  How's that sound?


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## Shade (Sep 11, 2008)

Sounds good.  Another one finished!


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## Shade (Sep 11, 2008)

A type of ghoul found in Haiti is the baka. A baka is similar to a zombie with several important differences. The corpse which forms a baka belonged to a member of a secret magical society that practices ritual cannibalism. The cannibalism is believed to give the eaters magical powers and is a form of necromancy.

While a baka has to be animated like a zombie, the baka is no mindless slave. In the realms of death, the dead person has merged with certain evil spirits and now has their powers. This supernatural monster can bring luck, power, or wealth to its master. But the baka must be treated in the proper manner (which includes a steady diet of fresh corpses), or the owner will be destroyed by uncontrollable magical energy. In fact, the baka is often quite willing to return from the grave to continue the horrid practices of its life.

*Baka*
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 2-16
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVE: 12&#148;
HIT DICE: 3
% IN LAIR: 10%
TREASURE TYPE: C
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 1-8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spells
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Average
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
SIZE: M
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil

Baka are the animated undead corpses of members of a secret cannibalistic society.  They have gained some demonic magical powers and have the clerical spells command and hold person. Baka can influence the luck of their enemies. Anyone fighting a baka has a -1 to hit, to do damage, and to all saving throws for the duration of the combat.

Baka are essentially a variety of ghoul, and clerics have the same chances to turn them as they do ghouls. Like ghouls, baka are immune to sleep and charm spells.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #138 (1988).


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## freyar (Sep 11, 2008)

Sounds like a monster, rather than template.  I definitely think we should spice up this 







> They have gained some demonic magical powers and have the clerical spells command and hold person. Baka can influence the luck of their enemies. Anyone fighting a baka has a -1 to hit, to do damage, and to all saving throws for the duration of the combat.



along the lines of 







> This supernatural monster can bring luck, power, or wealth to its master. But the baka must be treated in the proper manner (which includes a steady diet of fresh corpses), or the owner will be destroyed by uncontrollable magical energy.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 12, 2008)

Radiates a good hope or crushing despair spell, perhaps?


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## freyar (Sep 12, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Radiates a good hope or crushing despair spell, perhaps?



I'd go with crushing despair and maybe some kind of luck bonus for the "master."  But the penalties for the despair aura are somewhere between Bane and Crushing Despair.  Know of a spell that fits those parameters?


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## Shade (Sep 12, 2008)

freyar said:


> I'd go with crushing despair and maybe some kind of luck bonus for the "master."  But the penalties for the despair aura are somewhere between Bane and Crushing Despair.  Know of a spell that fits those parameters?




How about crushing despair on a failed save, but bane effects if the save succeeds?


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## freyar (Sep 12, 2008)

Excellent idea!  I think we should set up the idea that bakas are bound to a master.  Then we'd have something like this:

Aura of Despair (Su): Any creature other than the baka's master that enters within 30 ft of the baka must make a DC X Will save or be subject to the effects of crushing despair (as the spell) for X rounds.  On a successful save, the creature is subject to bane as the spell for X rounds instead.  The save DC is Cha-based.

That probably needs a little work.

The HD are between a ghoul and a ghast, so maybe Str 15, Dex 16, Con -, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 14, right in between?  I think we should probably leave off the disease and paralysis, or else these might be a little overpowered for their HD.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 12, 2008)

Shade said:


> How about crushing despair on a failed save, but bane effects if the save succeeds?




Ooh, I like that.

Since they're listed as being variant ghouls, I say they should get paralysis or disease, but not both. Keep 'em ghoulish. Definitely no stench.


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## Shade (Sep 12, 2008)

Paralysis feels more "traditional ghoulish" to me, so how about retaining that?


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## freyar (Sep 12, 2008)

Shade said:


> Paralysis feels more "traditional ghoulish" to me, so how about retaining that?



Works for me.  How about this ability (I even found a way to work in the disease)?

Bound to Master (Su): Each baka is bound to a living master.  As long as the master treats the baka favorably (which included providing a supply of fresh corpses), the baka grant the master a +1 luck bonus on all attack and damage rolls and most skill checks.  The master instead receives a +5 bonus on all Craft and Profession skill checks made to earn money.

If the master fails to treat the baka properly, the baka can remove the luck bonus.  At that time, the master contracts ghoul fever immediately with no incubation period.  The master receives no saves to prevent ability damage from the disease until the baka is destroyed.


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## Shade (Sep 12, 2008)

I like it!

Let's figure out ability scores.   Ghouls got a huge Intelligence boost from 1e to 3e (from 5-7 to 13), so if we were to increase the baka similarly, it would go from 8-10 to probably around 16.

Baka are also faster than ghouls in 1e, but have the same AC.

Ghouls have: Str 13, Dex 15, Con —, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 12
Ghasts have: Str 17, Dex 17, Con —, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 16

So how about:

Str 13, Dex 15, Con —, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 15?

Bite damage is a die higher, so we can either boost bite damage or increase Strength.


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## freyar (Sep 12, 2008)

Let's put Str at 15, I think.  That puts it between ghoul and ghast, like in HD.


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Skills: 36
Ghouls and ghasts have Balance, Climb, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Spot.  Just max all these?

Feats: Multiattack, 1 more  (Ghast has Toughness, but I'm sure we can do better)

Challenge Rating: 2 (right between a ghoul and ghast)?

Advancement: 4-6 HD (Medium)

Fill in the X's...

Aura of Despair (Su): Any creature other than the baka's master that enters within 30 ft of the baka must make a DC 13 Will save or be subject to the effects of crushing despair (as the spell) for X rounds. On a successful save, the creature is subject to bane as the spell for X rounds instead. The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## freyar (Sep 15, 2008)

We shouldn't forget Command and Hold Person as SLAs (maybe 1/day each).

Let's max those skills.

I kind of like Ability Focus (aura of despair) for the other feat, if that doesn't make the DC too tough.

Let's make it 1d6 rounds in both cases for the aura durations.


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2008)

I think Ability Focus is OK.  DC 15 isn't exceptional at that CR.

Caster level equal to HD?

Since they are faster than ghouls in 1e, do we want to boost speed to 40 feet?


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## freyar (Sep 15, 2008)

Yes and yes. You know, I kind of like these and really should use one sometime.


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2008)

Yeah, these are fun.  

Updated.


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## freyar (Sep 15, 2008)

These look pretty much done.  I'm going to say a weak CR 3; I think these are nearly as good as a ghast if not as good.


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2008)

Yeah, looking at it again, they are probably worthy of CR 3.


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## freyar (Sep 15, 2008)

Ready for the next one when that's updated.


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2008)

Get ready to do some reading.  

*Callicantzaros*
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO APPEARING: 2-20
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVE: 15"
HIT DICE: 6
% IN LAIR: 10%
TREASURE TYPE: D
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Stand
INTELLIGENCE: Low
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
SIZE: L (6-8' tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil

*Great Callicantzaros*
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: - 1
MOVE: 18"
HIT DICE: 18 (90 hp)
% IN LAIR: 10%
TREASURE TYPE: I
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 6-36
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Very
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
SIZE: L (10' tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil

In Greek folklore, the callicantzari are hideous, man-eating monsters that sometimes take on human form. They are described differently in different regions of Greece, but in general there are two main types of them: small and large.

The small callicantzari are not maneaters, and are less hideous to look at and less numerous than the larger variety. In fact, the small callicantzari are closer in nature to the European faerie races than to any kind of undead. The larger callicantzari are malicious and deadly. Their size varies from human-size to twice the height of a cottage. Usually, they are about 6-8' tall.

Callicantzari have dead-black skin. Most of them are covered with a coat of shaggy black hair, but a bald variety is sometimes mentioned. Their heads are huge, out of all proportion to the rest of their bodies.  Their faces are dark black, and their eyes glare redly. They have the ears of goats or asses. From their huge mouths, blood-red tongues loll out, flanked by ferocious-looking tusks. Their bodies are generally lean and tall, but some are shorter and thick-set.

Callicantzari have the arms and hands of monkeys. Their nails are as long again as their fingers, and are curled like the talons of a vulture. Some have the legs of a goat or an ass, some have one human leg and one bestial one, and some have human legs with the foot so distorted that the toes come out where the heel should be.  Hence, it is not surprising that these monsters are often lame, but even so, they are swift of foot and terrible in strength. They run with a peculiar shambling gait which, while appearing awkward, still allows them to run quickly.

Sometimes a callicantzaros (the singular form of callicantzari) appears to be a normal human; sometimes a callicantzaros appears in completely animal shape. In general, the callicantzari are neither wholly human nor wholly bestial but a blend of the two. It is possible that, in ancient times, "callicantzari" was a general term to describe animal-human combinations.  Creatures like the centaurs, satyrs, and sileni (like satyrs, but part ass) were specific kinds of callicantzari. If so, the generic meaning has long been lost, and callicantzari has evolved into a term to describe specific monsters.

From dawn to sunset, the callicantzari hide in dark and dank places - in caves or beneath mills - feeding on the loathsome food there (snakes, snails, insects, etc.).  But at night, they issue forth and run wildly to and fro, rending and crushing those who cross their paths. Destruction, waste, greed, and lust mark their courses.

Despite their uncouth shapes, the monsters delight in dancing. Sometimes a person can trick them into dancing all night. But people must beware, for the callicantzari delight in the taste of human flesh.

Fortunately, the callicantzari are stupid, gullible, and extremely quarrelsome.  They have little discipline or sense of planning, which adds an interesting aspect of roleplaying to an adventure as the PCs try to figure out ways to trick these monsters. A smart, alert person usually has no difficulty getting the better of them, as the following story from the island of Scyros shows(related in Modern Greek Folklore and Ancient Greek Religion, by John Cuthbert
Lawson):

A man of Scyros was returning home from a mill late at night, driving his mule before him laden with two sacks of meal.  When he had gone about halfway, he saw before him some callicantzari in his path.  Realizing his danger, he at once got upon his mule and laid himself flat between the two sacks and covered himself up with a rug, so as to look like another sack of meal. Soon the callicantzari were about his mule, and he held his breath and heard one say, "Here is a pack on this side and a pack on that side, and the top-load in the middle, hut where is the man?"  

So the callicantzari ran back to the mill thinking that the man had loitered behind.  But they could not find him and came back after the mule, looked again, and said, "Here is a pack on this side and a pack on that side, and the top-load in the middle, but where is the man?" So they ran on in front, fearing that he had hastened on home before his mule.  But when they could not find him, they returned again, then went back a second time toward the mill. This went on many times.  The mule needed no one to guide it; it had traveled the path many times. While the callicantzari were running to and fro, the mule steadily trudged home. When the beast stopped at the door of the man's home, the callicantzari were close behind.  The man called to his wife, and she opened the door and he entered safely.

When the callicantzari saw how he had tricked them, they knocked at the door in great anger. The woman, fearing that the monsters would break in by force, promised to let them in on the condition that they first count the holes in her sieve. To this they agreed, and she let the sieve down to them by a cord from an upper window. Straightaway, the monsters began to count the holes, and they counted round and round the outermost circle of holes in the sieve and so never got to the middle. Frustrated with the lengthy counting process, they only counted more and more hurriedly as a result.

Meanwhile, dawn was breaking. Soon the neighbors saw the callicantzari, and they hurried off to the priests and told them. The priests immediately set out with censers and sprinkling vessels in their hands to chase the callicantzari.  The monsters fled right through town, spreading havoc in their path as they were hotly pursued by the priests. At last, when they were clear of the town, one callicantzaros began to lag behind, and by a great effort the foremost priest ran up to him and struck him on a hind foot with a sprinkling vessel. At once the foot fell off. The callicantzaros replaced it as best he could, but he got it on backward. Thus came about the phrase "callicantzaros foot," to describe their peculiar kind of lameness.

Callicantzari are on the borderland between the undead and other monsters. While the final choice of whether or not to make them undead is up to the DM, I have classed them as undead because, in legends, they operate only at night, can be scared away by unarmed clerics, take damage from holy water, are man-eaters, and traditionally appear only at the 12 days of Christmas - a time, like Halloween, when the harriers between the dead and the living are weak.

Callicantzari are a kind of undead mixture of animal and human traits. They have black skin and shaggy hair, oversized heads with goat ears, and red eyes. Their feet are either animal feet or distorted so that the heels are where the toes should be. Callicantzari are big, stupid, malicious man-eaters that roam at night seeking prey. Daylight does not actually hurt them, but they will avoid it if at all possible.

The traditional leader of the callicantzari is the Great Callicantzaros. He has the power of confusion (as per the magic-user spell, usable three times per day); anyone who fails the saving throw against it will be influenced toward mindless destruction, greed, and lust as long as the Great Callicantzaros is within sight. Clerics and cavaliers of good alignment, including paladins, are immune to the confusion.  Any other character of good alignment gets a +2 on the saving throw.

The callicantzari are hopelessly stupid and easily tricked. They often work at cross-purposes since they are incapable of organized action. The Great Callicantzaros, by himself, acts in an intelligent manner. But even he cannot exert enough influence to alter the stupid behavior of his fellow callicantzari.  

Clerics can turn callicantzari with the same chances as they have against wights.  The Great Callicantzaros cannot be turned, but he will flee if the majority of the callicantzari flee. Holy water causes 2-8 hp damage per vial against callicantzari.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #138 (1988).


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 16, 2008)

OK, that confusion effect might be better modeled by song of discord or non-core spells like miser's envy (which makes the victim violently defend its treasures).

From the description, I wouldn't call them undead, but I would allow it if they were (say) the undead remnants of wicked fey.


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## freyar (Sep 16, 2008)

I'd probably be a little happier with fey, but with ties to undead.  Maybe some negative energy affinity or something.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 16, 2008)

Tomb-tainted fey (harmed by positive energy, healed by negative, hurt by holy water, light sensitivity, able to be turned) works for me too.


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## Shade (Sep 16, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Tomb-tainted fey (harmed by positive energy, healed by negative, hurt by holy water, light sensitivity, able to be turned) works for me too.




That sounds like the best way to go.

Let's figure out ability scores.

Int is Low (5-7).



> they are swift of foot and terrible in strength.




Decent Str and Dex?



> Fortunately, the callicantzari are stupid, gullible, and extremely quarrelsome.






> The callicantzari are hopelessly stupid and easily tricked.




Low Wis?

Con could be average to good, and Cha might be OK due to their abilities of disguise and Perform (dance).

Suggestions?


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## freyar (Sep 16, 2008)

I assume we're starting with the smaller ones.  Should these be Medium, I guess?

What about Str 19, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 5, Wis 8, Cha 15?


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## Shade (Sep 16, 2008)

The article didn't provide stats for the smaller ones, presumably because they weren't "maneaters".   However, the larger varieties are only 6-8 feet tall, so still could be Medium.   If so, I think your suggested stats work fine.


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## freyar (Sep 16, 2008)

Oh, sorry, I meant the smaller of the two larger varieties.   I think the Great Callicantzaros should probably be Large and correspondingly stronger, etc.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 16, 2008)

Those ability scores look pretty good. I might boost Cha a bit to 16, but other than that...


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## Shade (Sep 16, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.



> Callicantzari have dead-black skin. Most of them are covered with a coat of shaggy black hair, but a bald variety is sometimes mentioned. Their heads are huge, out of all proportion to the rest of their bodies. Their faces are dark black, and their eyes glare redly. They have the ears of goats or asses. From their huge mouths, blood-red tongues loll out, flanked by ferocious-looking tusks. Their bodies are generally lean and tall, but some are shorter and thick-set.
> 
> Callicantzari have the arms and hands of monkeys. Their nails are as long again as their fingers, and are curled like the talons of a vulture. Some have the legs of a goat or an ass, some have one human leg and one bestial one, and some have human legs with the foot so distorted that the toes come out where the heel should be. Hence, it is not surprising that these monsters are often lame, but even so, they are swift of foot and terrible in strength. They run with a peculiar shambling gait which, while appearing awkward, still allows them to run quickly.




Despite only originally having one attack, I'm thinking bite and two claws for the most common configuration.  Thoughts?


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## freyar (Sep 17, 2008)

Yeah, I'd go with bite primary, 2 claws secondary.

These are really ugly, huh?  Something in the description reminds me of "Where the Wild Things Are," but not quite as friendly as the monsters in that book.


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## Shade (Sep 17, 2008)

freyar said:


> These are really ugly, huh?  Something in the description reminds me of "Where the Wild Things Are," but not quite as friendly as the monsters in that book.




I can definitely see that!  My first thought was of trollocs from Wheel of Time.

1d8 bite, 1d4 claws?


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## freyar (Sep 17, 2008)

The damage sounds about right.  How are these looking?


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## Shade (Sep 17, 2008)

Updated.



> The larger callicantzari are malicious and deadly. Their size varies from human-size to twice the height of a cottage. Usually, they are about 6-8' tall.




"twice the height of a cottage" suggests advancement to Huge, at least, eh?



> Despite their uncouth shapes, the monsters delight in dancing. Sometimes a person can trick them into dancing all night. But people must beware, for the callicantzari delight in the taste of human flesh.




It gets 27 skill ranks (max rank 9).  Put 9 ranks in Perform (dance)?



> Callicantzari are on the borderland between the undead and other monsters. While the final choice of whether or not to make them undead is up to the DM, I have classed them as undead because, in legends, they operate only at night, can be scared away by unarmed clerics, take damage from holy water, are man-eaters, and traditionally appear only at the 12 days of Christmas - a time, like Halloween, when the harriers between the dead and the living are weak.






> Clerics can turn callicantzari with the same chances as they have against wights.






> Holy water causes 2-8 hp damage per vial against callicantzari.




Borrowing Demiurge's suggestion above, how is this?

Tomb-Tainted (Ex):  Although fey, callicantzari are harmed by positive energy and healed by negative energy.  They are treated as undead for purposes of spells and effects that treat undead differently (such as searing light or a holy water).  A callicantzari may be turned as if it were an undead creature.



> Daylight does not actually hurt them, but they will avoid it if at all possible.




Wanna borrow this from orcs?

Light Sensitivity (Ex): Callicantzari are dazzled in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell.


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## freyar (Sep 17, 2008)

I would think they should advance to Huge, but the Great Callicantzaros is only 10ft tall, which I think is still Large.  So I think advancement might depend on whether we want the Great C to be a special individual (and whether we bump his size or not) or a separate species.  I'm almost inclined to make a separate species.

All the rest seems perfect.  Skills: max out Perform (dance), Intimidate, Disguise?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 18, 2008)

The Great should be a seperate species, with the lessers advancing up to Huge.

With all those ranks in Perform (dance), we should give them (and/or the Great) some sort of bard-like dancing power. Perhaps the lesser ones can dance as a full-round action to inspire fear? They can dance themselves into a frenzy?


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## freyar (Sep 18, 2008)

If Shade agrees, let's do the separate species.

I kind of like the frenzy idea, as it kind of goes along with this:


> Despite their uncouth shapes, the monsters delight in dancing. Sometimes a person can trick them into dancing all night. But people must beware, for the callicantzari delight in the taste of human flesh.




Here's an idea.

Dancing Frenzy (Ex): If a callicantzaros spends X full rounds dancing, it gains +4 Str, +4 Con, and a +2 circumstance bonus to Ref saves (due to its constant motion) while it continues dancing (for at least a move action per round) and for X rounds thereafter.  However, the callicantzaros must make a DC X Will save to take any action other than dancing in a given round and a DC X Will save to stop dancing altogether.

Thoughts?


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## Shade (Sep 18, 2008)

I like the dancing frenzy.

Maybe 3 rounds "prep time", 1d4 rounds thereafter, DC 15/20 for the saves?

Advancement: 7-9 HD (Medium); 10-14 HD (Large); 15-18 HD (Huge)?


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## freyar (Sep 18, 2008)

All sounds good to me!


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 18, 2008)

Wait, what's the difference between taking an action other than dancing and stopping dancing? The idea is that they can make a DC 15 to attack and dance, and a DC 20 to stop dancing, yes? The wording is a little confusing.


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## freyar (Sep 18, 2008)

This is why I thought it might still need work. 

That's the idea.  Maybe we should say that they must make a DC 15 to spend a round dancing (move action) and taking another standard action (as opposed to full-round dancing) and DC 20 to stop dancing (no move or full-round action devoted to dancing).


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 19, 2008)

I'm not sure I like the uncontrollableness. Seems like a liability--and these guys are already operating at a loss, being melee-focused fey. I also think there should be some way they can benefit from a good Perform check


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## freyar (Sep 19, 2008)

Hmmm, I think there should at least be a small loss of control based on the flavor of the original text.  We can negotiate.   I like the idea of a benefit from the Perform check, though!  Maybe a save/attack bonus based on making a set DC Perform check?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 19, 2008)

Sure, something like DC 15 = +1, DC 25 = +2, DC 35 = +3? Borrowing a little bit from the archivist. 

I think that sacrificing an action (no full attacks, for one thing) is already a big sacrifice. Perhaps if they have to make cumulative Will saves every round or just start dancing uncontrollably without fighting?


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## freyar (Sep 22, 2008)

Ok, I had a start here a couple of days ago, lost it, and have just been too uninspired to type it in again since.  But here goes:

Dancing Frenzy (Ex): A callicantzaros can dance itself into a frenzy.  If a callicantzaros spends a move action to make a DC 15 Perform (dance) check, it gains a +1 to attack and damage rolls and an additional +1 for each 5 points the check exceeds DC 15.  In addition, the callicantzaros may choose to use its Perform (dance) check result in place of any necessary Reflex save in the same round that it has danced.  If a callicantzaros has made a successful Perform (dance) check for three successive rounds, it also gains +4 Str and +4 Con as long as it spends a move action to make a Perform (dance) check.  However, each round that it benefits from enhanced Str and Con, it must make a DC 10 Will save or spend its full round dancing without taking any other actions.

Look better?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 22, 2008)

That I like! Maybe make the Will save a higher DC--I'm not sure what their Will save is.


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## freyar (Sep 22, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> That I like! Maybe make the Will save a higher DC--I'm not sure what their Will save is.



It's at +4 right now, so they'll succeed 75% of the time.  The failed Will save isn't too big of a penalty, but maybe it doesn't come up often enough.


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2008)

Updated.

Feats: 3

Environment: x

Organization: Solitary or x (2-20)

Treasure: x
Type D:
1-8 1,000s of copper pieces: 10% 
1-12 1,000s of silver pieces: 15% 
1-8 1,000s of electrum pieces: 15%
1-6 1,000s of gold pieces: 50%
1-10 gems: 30%
1-6 jewelry: 25%
Maps or Magic Items: Any 2 plus 1 potion: 15%

A callicantzaros is 6 to 8 feet tall and weighs x pounds. 

Callicantzari speak x.


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## freyar (Sep 23, 2008)

Feats: Power Attack, Dodge, Mobility (or maybe Cleave instead)?
Environment: Any land?
Treasure: 1/2 coins, 1/2 goods, standard items?
200-300 lb?
Sylvan?


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2008)

Updated.

Special Qualities: Damage reduction 5/cold iron?

Organization: Solitary or x (2-20)
x=pack?  horde?

Challenge Rating: 3?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 24, 2008)

CR 3 looks about right. I say yes to DR 5/cold iron. How about a party or a cohort as the group noun?


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## Shade (Sep 24, 2008)

"Party" does seem appropriate to a bunch of disorderly, dancing destroyers.  

Updated.

Ready for the greater version?


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## freyar (Sep 25, 2008)

Looks good!  I say we're ready to move on, unless you guys think the DCs in the Dancing Frenzy are too easy.

For the greater one, keep pretty much whatever we have, advance HD, add SLAs?  Should probably rejigger the stats, too, huh?


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## Shade (Sep 25, 2008)

> Callicantzaros
> FREQUENCY: Rare
> NO APPEARING: 2-20
> ARMOR CLASS: 5
> ...




Let's see...

9 more HD
6 better AC
Triple the damage output
Int is Very (11-12)


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 26, 2008)

I'd boost the dancing frenzy DC to 15, meself.

The Great might have the ability to suppress the negative effect of dancing frenzy of the lessers in a certain radius.


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## freyar (Sep 26, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> I'd boost the dancing frenzy DC to 15, meself.
> 
> The Great might have the ability to suppress the negative effect of dancing frenzy of the lessers in a certain radius.



I like both those ideas.

To account for higher damage and AC (partly), should we boost Str and Dex?  (Con, too, while we're at it.)


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## Shade (Sep 26, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> I'd boost the dancing frenzy DC to 15, meself.




Consider it boosted.



demiurge1138 said:


> The Great might have the ability to suppress the negative effect of dancing frenzy of the lessers in a certain radius.




Sounds good.

Increasing the lesser to Large, and increasing Int yields...
Str 27, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 16

Should we keep Dex the same as the lesser?

How much to boost Wis and Cha?

Following normal size increases to damage, this would raise damage output from 11-24 to 20-40 for a full attack.  That's closer to double.  Do we want to raise Strength more, raise base damage, raise both, or not worry about it?


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## freyar (Sep 26, 2008)

Let's put Dex back at 16, right.  Maybe Wis 12, Cha 18 or 20?  These guys are pretty much automatically going to get big bonuses from dance checks.  Maybe we should modify their frenzy somehow.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 27, 2008)

Let's raise base damage a bit.


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## freyar (Sep 28, 2008)

Yeah, agreed.  Maybe 1 extra step?


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## Shade (Sep 29, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Sep 29, 2008)

Ok, at this point, I think we may want to revisit dancing frenzy.  These are going to have a Perform (dance) modifier of +26 (if we max it), which means they are always going to get +3 attack & damage.  Reasonable, or should we increase the DC to get to +1 (as well as to avoid full-round dancing later)?  If we increase the DC, we should probably put in some additional reward, like helping out the lesser callicantzari as demiurge suggested.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 30, 2008)

I agree that the dancing DCs should be higher, and that it should have additional benefits.


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## Shade (Sep 30, 2008)

Suggested DCs and added bennies?


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## freyar (Oct 1, 2008)

Increase the base DC to 30.  A successful gives any (lesser) callicantzari within 30 ft a +2 circumstance bonus on Perform (dance) checks.  It can choose to spend only a swift action to dance by increasing the DC 5 points?

I'd like your opinions, especially on the numbers...


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## Shade (Oct 1, 2008)

I like it!   Demiurge, your thoughts?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 1, 2008)

Sounds good to me. I'd like it better if we folded in my previous suggestion that lessers dancing around a greater didn't have to make Will saves or got a bonus to their Will saves against losing control.


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## freyar (Oct 1, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Sounds good to me. I'd like it better if we folded in my previous suggestion that lessers dancing around a greater didn't have to make Will saves or got a bonus to their Will saves against losing control.



Taking that suggestion, how about this?

Greater Dancing Frenzy (Ex): A great callicantzaros can dance itself into a frenzy. If a great callicantzaros spends a move action to make a DC 30 Perform (dance) check, it gains a +1 to attack and damage rolls and an additional +1 for each 5 points the check exceeds DC 30.  A great callicantzaros may choose to spend only a swift action on the Perform (dance) check, but the DC increases by 5.

In addition, the great callicantzaros may choose to use its Perform (dance) check result in place of any necessary Reflex save in the same round that it has danced. Also, a successful Perform (dance) check grants any (lesser) callicantzari within 30 ft a +2 circumstance bonus to dance checks for one round and causes the (lesser) callicantzari to succeed automatically at Will saves to avoid taking full-round actions of dancing for the following round.

If a great callicantzaros has made a successful Perform (dance) check for three successive rounds, it also gains +4 Str and +4 Con as long as it spends a move (or swift) action to make a Perform (dance) check. However, each round that it benefits from enhanced Str and Con, it must make a DC 30 Will save or spend its full round dancing without taking any other actions.


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## Shade (Oct 1, 2008)

Even better!


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 2, 2008)

Well done! I am thoroughly satisfied.


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## freyar (Oct 2, 2008)

My only other thought on the greater dancing frenzy, since it has an inspirational effect on the lesser callicantzari: should it be Su rather than Ex?

Two other things before we move on to feats and skills:
The great callicantzaros is immune to turning (we should note this in tomb-tainted).
Also should get confusion as 3/day SLA.


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## Shade (Oct 2, 2008)

freyar said:


> My only other thought on the greater dancing frenzy, since it has an inspirational effect on the lesser callicantzari: should it be Su rather than Ex?




Yeah, probably.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Two other things before we move on to feats and skills:
> The great callicantzaros is immune to turning (we should note this in tomb-tainted).
> Also should get confusion as 3/day SLA.




Caster level = HD?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 2, 2008)

CL = HD seems a bit mean in this case--I doubt these guys are going to be more than a CR 10-12. High HD melee fey are like that. CL = CR to CR +2, perhaps?


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## freyar (Oct 2, 2008)

Let's go CR+2.


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## Shade (Oct 2, 2008)

Sounds good.

Damage reduction 10/cold iron?

Skills: 7 at 21 ranks
We gave lesser max ranks in Disguise, Intimidate, Perform (dance)

Feats: Cleave, Multiattack, Power Attack, 4 more

Organization: Solitary or party (1 plus 2-20 callicantzari)?

Challenge Rating: 10-11?

Treasure: x
They have type I:
3-18 100s of platinum pieces: 30%
2-20 gems: 55%
1-12 jewelry: 50%
Maps or Magic Items: Any 1: 15%

Advancement: x


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## freyar (Oct 2, 2008)

DR looks good.

Skills: also Balance, Tumble, Bluff, Climb?

Feats: Imp Overrun, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 3, 2008)

freyar said:


> DR looks good.
> 
> Skills: also Balance, Tumble, Bluff, Climb?
> 
> Feats: Imp Overrun, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack?




Boost Int to 13 and switch Imp Overrun and Cleave with Combat Expertise and Whirlwind Attack? Whirlwind Attack strikes me as appropriate for these guys.


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## Shade (Oct 3, 2008)

Updated.

CR 10-11?

Advancement: 19-30 HD (Large); 31-54 HD (Huge)?

A great callicantzaros is between x and x feet tall and weighs x to x pounds.


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## freyar (Oct 3, 2008)

CR 10?

10-13 ft tall, maybe 800-1200 lb?


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## Shade (Oct 3, 2008)

Updated.

Finished?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 3, 2008)

I think we should change the flavor text around a bit; a lot of this looks to be copy-paste from the lesser entry.

Thoughts on flavor:

They lead their lessers in wild, frenzied revels on holy days like the winter solstice and fall equinox. They often invite cruel nymphs, satyrs and other fey to join them, giving rise to rumors of witchcraft.

The great are smart enough to be favored by the Queen of Air and Darkness, and they try (without much luck) to get their lessers to show Her the reverence She deserves.

They lord over lessers regardless of the lesser's power, taking great pride in bullying around advanced lessers the size of houses.


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## freyar (Oct 6, 2008)

Excellent ideas!


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2008)

Fantastic!   Updated.


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## freyar (Oct 6, 2008)

Looks done now...


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 6, 2008)

I'd put the name of the monster into the flavor text I provided... I didn't because I can't spell the damn thing!


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2008)

I feel your pain.  Each time I searched for the entry, I spelled it differently.  Finally I just searched for "cantz", and remembered it because I "cant zpell it".

Updated.  Good?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 6, 2008)

Looks good!


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## Shade (Oct 7, 2008)

*Dark lords*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any, often subterranean
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Not applicable
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Exceptional to godlike
TREASURE: 25% H
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: - 2
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 13 +
THAC0: See below
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 1d12 each
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Energy drain, aging
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 50%
SIZE: M
MORALE: Fearless
X.P. VALUE: 13 = 17,000 xp;
14th = 18,000;
15th = 19,000 xp, etc.

A dark lord is an extremely high level, chaotic evil NPC who was slain by a sphere of annihilation and has managed to return to the world as one of the undead.  In essence, when the dark lord was killed, it was sucked into another dimension. The creature joined the ranks of the undead and has struggled its way back across the dimensions with one goal in mind: revenge on the living. In so doing, the dark lord has gained a number of powers dealing with other dimensions, gravity, and the space-time continuum.

A dark lord looks like the shadows of a person, but looks are deceiving. The monster is actually composed of material from the Negative Material Plane.

Combat: Any character who comes within 200’ of a dark lord is slowed due to the effects of heavy gravity (no save allowed).  On each successful hit, a dark lord not only causes 1-12 points of damage, but drains one energy level if a save vs. death is failed. It also ages its victim 10d4 years if a saving throw vs. spells is failed. Both the energy drain and aging apply to each of the dark lord’s physical attacks. Thus, an unlucky character might lose two levels and age 80 years in one round.

In addition to its physical attacks, a dark lord can cast one spell per round. Consider the spell to be an innate power without the usual spell-casting requirements (e.g. no somatic gestures, incantations, or special components are needed). The dark lord has only nine spells that can be cast, but they are extremely powerful ones: disintegrate, duo-dimension, alter reality, reverse gravity, maze, astral spell, gate, imprisonment, and time stop.

The THAC0 of a dark lord depends on its level: 13th-14th = 7; 15th + = 5.

A cleric of level 9-13 can turn a dark lord on a roll of 20. A cleric of level 14 + can turn a dark lord on a roll of 19-20.

A dark lord can be hit only by magical weapons with a +2 or greater bonus. The following spells, or attack forms, have no effect on dark lords: charm, sleep, enfeeblement, hold, cold, electricity, teleportation, polymorph, fear, magnetism, insanity, slow, disintegrate, maze, imprisonment, gravity, time, paralysis, or death (including poison). Holy water will do only half normal damage on a dark lord. A raise dead spell will destroy a dark lord, but it is allowed a saving throw versus spells.

Note: Dark lords are even more powerful than liches and should be used cautiously by the DM.

Habitat/Society: Dark lords are strictly solitary and thus have no society. They prefer to inhabit lonely, forlorn places, especially ones that were once the abode of great evil. Graveyards, ruins, battlefields, isolated caverns, and wild wastelands are their preferred dwelling places. Sunlight does not harm dark lords, but they will stick to darkness or shadow if at all possible, making them harder to notice, and better fitting their mood and temperament.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #210 (1994).


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 7, 2008)

Alright. What are we going to do about the aging, first off? There's no aging effects in D&D these days... ability drain? I recall recommending the touch of years spell from Complete Mage for an aging-type effect earlier.


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## Shade (Oct 7, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Alright. What are we going to do about the aging, first off? There's no aging effects in D&D these days... ability drain? I recall recommending the touch of years spell from Complete Mage for an aging-type effect earlier.




That is probably a good idea.  I'll see if I can dig up the last ability for which we used it.

This definitely screams "template" to me.   The tough part is deciding the "prereqs"...how to define "high-level" for purposes of gaining the template.


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## freyar (Oct 7, 2008)

Agreed on template.  High-level needs to be at least 13th level, but you could argue for higher based on faster leveling in 3.X.  Maybe we should add some prereqs based on ability scores or something.

For aging, I agree with looking for the previous ability.  But there are the modest aging effects as follows:


			
				SRD said:
			
		

> 1 At middle age, –1 to Str, Dex, and Con; +1 to Int, Wis, and Cha.
> 2 At old age, –2 to Str, Dex, and Con; +1 to Int, Wis, and Cha.
> 3 At venerable age, –3 to Str, Dex, and Con; +1 to Int, Wis, and Cha.


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## Shade (Oct 7, 2008)

It looks like we used it on the ker:

"The second successful hit against a single target prematurely ages the victim unless it succeeds on a DC 18 Fortitude save. This imposes a -4 penalty to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, and causes the victim's hair to turn white, skin to wrinkle, and posture to stoop. This effect lasts for 1 year our until the victim receives a remove curse spell."


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## freyar (Oct 8, 2008)

I can go with those effects, though maybe in this case it should be permanent/instantaneous unless removed with break enchantment or similarly powerful magic.  Thoughts?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 8, 2008)

Sounds good to me.


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## Shade (Oct 8, 2008)

> Note: Dark lords are even more powerful than liches and should be used cautiously by the DM.




Let's use that bit above to guide us as we continue...



> INTELLIGENCE: Exceptional to godlike




Lich is Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +2.   Maybe +4 to each for these?



> ARMOR CLASS: - 2




Natural armor seems a bit odd for this creature (although the somewhat similar blackball has high natural armor).  A lich has a +5 natural armor bonus.



> MAGIC RESISTANCE: 50%




AKA spell resitance CR + 11.



> A dark lord looks like the shadows of a person, but looks are deceiving. The monster is actually composed of material from the Negative Material Plane.




An interesting sidebar...



			
				Manual of the Planes said:
			
		

> In some locations on the Negative Energy Plane, the collapsing intensity of the plane is so great that the negative energy folds in on itself, stabilizing into solid chunks of utterly black matter. These chunks of voidstone might be the building blocks of such items as the sphere of annihilation. Indeed, anything that comes into contact with a voidstone is instantly destroyed. Unlike with a sphere of annihilation, a character touching a piece of voidstone gets a Fortitude saving throw (DC 25) each round he stays in contact with it. Even natives of the Negative Energy Plane are vulnerable to voidstones.




Maybe natural armor isn't so odd after all.  



> Combat: Any character who comes within 200’ of a dark lord is slowed due to the effects of heavy gravity (no save allowed).




Something like this?

Aura of Heavy Gravity (Su):  A dark lord is continually surrounded by an aura of heavy gravity in a 200-foot-radius centered on itself.  All creatures within the area are slowed (as the spell) while within the area and for x rounds after leaving the area, with no saving throw.



> On each successful hit, a dark lord not only causes 1-12 points of damage, but drains one energy level if a save vs. death is failed. It also ages its victim 10d4 years if a saving throw vs. spells is failed. Both the energy drain and aging apply to each of the dark lord’s physical attacks. Thus, an unlucky character might lose two levels and age 80 years in one round.




"Voidstrike" (Su):  The touch of a dark lord deals 1d12 points of negative energy damage and subjects the victim to its energy drain attack.  Additionally, a successful hit prematurely ages the victim unless it succeeds on a DC x Fortitude save. This imposes a -4 penalty to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, and causes the victim's hair to turn white, skin to wrinkle, and posture to stoop. This effect is permanent and can only be removed by a break enchantment effect.

Energy Drain (Su): Living creatures hit by a dark lord's slam attack gain one negative level. The DC is x for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. The save DC is Charisma-based. For each such negative level bestowed, the dark lord gains 5 temporary hit points.



> In addition to its physical attacks, a dark lord can cast one spell per round. Consider the spell to be an innate power without the usual spell-casting requirements (e.g. no somatic gestures, incantations, or special components are needed). The dark lord has only nine spells that can be cast, but they are extremely powerful ones: disintegrate, duo-dimension, alter reality, reverse gravity, maze, astral spell, gate, imprisonment, and time stop.




At will (shudders) SLAs?  Caster level equals HD?



> A cleric of level 9-13 can turn a dark lord on a roll of 20. A cleric of level 14 + can turn a dark lord on a roll of 19-20.




A lich has +4 turn resistance.  Maybe +6 or even +8 for dark lords?



> A dark lord can be hit only by magical weapons with a +2 or greater bonus.




Lich's have damage reduction 15/bludgeoning and magic.  Maybe 15/holy and magic?



> The following spells, or attack forms, have no effect on dark lords: charm, sleep, enfeeblement, hold, cold, electricity, teleportation, polymorph, fear, magnetism, insanity, slow, disintegrate, maze, imprisonment, gravity, time, paralysis, or death (including poison).




How's this?

Immunities (Ex): Dark lords have immunity to cold, electricity, disintegration, polymorph (though they can use polymorph effects on themselves), and mind-affecting attacks.  Additionally, they are immune to any temporal effects (such as haste, slow, or time stop), gravity effects (such as reverse gravity), or magnetism effects (such as a metalmaster's magnetism abilities or the magnetic attraction ability of a lodestone marauder).



> Holy water will do only half normal damage on a dark lord.




Special ability?



> A raise dead spell will destroy a dark lord, but it is allowed a saving throw versus spells.




Some special vulnerabilty to all life-restoring magic?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 9, 2008)

The DMG/Manual of the Planes actually have high gravity rules--I think we should use those, rather than slowing.

Perhaps a profane or deflection bonus to AC instead?


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## freyar (Oct 9, 2008)

All good suggestions.  And I think yes that those are at will SLAs.  These things are going to be like chronotyrins (or however you spell that).  Huge CR boost, esp if we allow them to keep class abilities.


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## Shade (Oct 9, 2008)

Chronotyryns are among my favorite creatures.  

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Oct 11, 2008)

I think it's looking good so far.  We should remove references to "DC X Fortitude" saves in Energy Drain and Voidstrike, since the saves don't have a fixed DC.

How about saying that the template can be added to any humanoid of at least 15 HD?


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## Shade (Oct 13, 2008)

I'm not sure we should limit it to humanoids.  In fact, the image in the article showed a non-humanoid creature (it looks most like a dragon to me).

Maybe just limit it to living creatures?  We could limit it by highest base saving throw of a certain amount (say, +9, which is normal for 15th level) so as to give spellcasters and fighters an equal entry point.  That would allow monsters of 14 Hit Dice access.  Thoughts?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 14, 2008)

I like that idea!


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## Shade (Oct 14, 2008)

Updated.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 14, 2008)

I should point out that their DR should be 15/good, not 15/"holy".


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## Shade (Oct 14, 2008)

Indeed!  I'll fix it.

Armor Class: A dark lord has a +x profane bonus to Armor Class.  (Fixed amount or equal to Cha modifier?)



> A raise dead spell will destroy a dark lord, but it is allowed a saving throw versus spells.






			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.




Should we stick with the usual undead reaction to such spells, or create a "Vulnerability to Life-Restoring Magic" SQ?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 15, 2008)

I think we should use industry standard for the life-type magic. And I like profane bonus = Charisma modifier.


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## Shade (Oct 15, 2008)

Updated.

Ready for the difficult part?

Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature +x.

Treasure: x.

Alignment: Always chaotic evil?

Advancement: Same as base creature or by character class?

Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature +x.


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## freyar (Oct 15, 2008)

These are big, big bads, so I like triple standard treasure.

Always CE.

Advancement: I'd say same as base creature.

Uhh, tough one.  CR+5 or 6?  Needs to be at least +4, but I'd think even higher.


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## Shade (Oct 15, 2008)

Let's see...

The minimal creature is 15th-level or 15 HD.   For a creature with class levels, a CR of +5 would put it at CR 20.  That may actually be too weak for a creature with disintegrate and time stop at will.  Even the CR 25 phane can only use time stop 1/day, and the chronotyryn is limited to 3/day, without the added disintegrate ability.

I'm wondering if we shouldn't limit the SLAs a bit to make these things more reasonable.


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## freyar (Oct 16, 2008)

Maybe.  These seem comparable to phanes actually (man, the phane's stasis touch and null time field could be tough!).  But CR +10 seems a bit crazy -- are there any precedents for that?


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## Shade (Oct 16, 2008)

freyar said:


> Maybe.  These seem comparable to phanes actually (man, the phane's stasis touch and null time field could be tough!).  But CR +10 seems a bit crazy -- are there any precedents for that?




Pseudonatural Creature Template (Epic version): Up to 6 HD, as base creature +16; 7 HD to 15 HD, as base creature +13, 16+ HD, as base creature +10.

Paragon Creature: As base creature +15. 

Demilich +6 (on top of +4 from lich)


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## freyar (Oct 16, 2008)

I guess the greater vampire templates also stack up to be that much.  So +10 wouldn't be too ridiculous, unless you think a dark lord would be too much of a glass canon.  Would you rather bump the CR or reduce the SLAs?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 17, 2008)

I think we should dial down a few of the totally over-the-top SLAs (like time stop and gate) down to a "mere" 3x day--but perhaps also increase the defenses a bit more. Unholy toughness seems like a given, and fast healing might also compensate.


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2008)

Sounds good.   Updated.

Fast healing 10?

I'm thinking Level Adjustment: -, as there's really no way I can fathom these guys as playable, even at epic levels.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 17, 2008)

10 sounds good for the fast healing.


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2008)

I think we're ready for the sample creature.   15th-level dwarven fighter sound good?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 18, 2008)

Sounds fine... but I'd prefer a 15th level orc fighter. Just because there's not enough templated orcs.


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## freyar (Oct 19, 2008)

Let's go for that, sure!


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## Shade (Oct 20, 2008)

Here's the base stats...

15th-Level Orc Fighter
Medium Humanoid (Orc)
Hit Dice: 15d10+30 (112 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 11 (+1 Dex), touch 11, flat-footed 10
Base Attack/Grapple: +15/+21
Attack: Weapon +15 melee (xdx+6)
Full Attack: Weapon +15/+10/+5 melee (xdx+6)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. 
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., light sensitivity
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +6, Will +4
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 6
Skills: 36
Feats: 6 plus 8 fighter bonus feats
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 15
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Often chaotic evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +0

Light Sensitivity (Ex): Orcs are dazzled in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell.

Starting scores before racial and level adjustments:
Str 15, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8


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## freyar (Oct 20, 2008)

After the template, goes to Con -, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 10.

Jump and Climb would be good fighterly skills.


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## Shade (Oct 20, 2008)

Suggested feat chains?   This guy is loaded with feat slots.


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## freyar (Oct 20, 2008)

He should be able to take Weapon Focus, Greater WF, Weapon Specialization, Greater WS.  Too bad he's not smart enough for Combat Expertise until after you apply the template, or he could get the Whirlwind Attack chain.  Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder could all or separately work.  Or maybe the 2-weapon tree.  Could even see archery feats, but that's a waste of that great Str.

Anyway, we need a vision for him.  I definitely say go with the GWS tree, but that still leaves 10 feats!


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 21, 2008)

Greater weapon spec, fights with an orc double axe. So that way we can use TWF feats as well.


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## Shade (Oct 21, 2008)

Unfortunately, Dex isn't high enough for TWF.  

Back to the drawing board...

I also noticed that his Cha will be too poor to showcase several of the abilities (unholy toughness, profane bonus to AC), so lets reverse Wis and Cha to at least get a +1 bonus.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 21, 2008)

Back to the drawing board for feats, or put some of his points into Dex? Remember, he's going to be a high-level NPC. We can give him some equipment, and that equipment can include gloves of Dex if we have to.

Edit: Or give the template a racial Dex bonus. It is CR + lots, after all...


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## freyar (Oct 21, 2008)

Since he loses his Con anyway, why not swap that with Cha (starting before racial adjustments)?  It's sort of a cheat, because what orc fighter would have Con 8, but we'd end up with Cha 16. 

While we're at it, he gets a big Str bonus for being and orc and I'm assuming level bumps, so why not swap starting Str and Dex?  Then you get Dex 15 for TWF and TWD.  That's part of the chain.  We might also consider some of the shooting feats, since his opponents are likely to want to stay at range.


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## Shade (Oct 21, 2008)

While applying the feat, the ability modifiers did seem a bit underpowered.

How about Dex +4, Int +4, Wis +6, Cha +8?   It has to be a sign of a lot of strength of personality and willpower to avoid annihilation, after all.  

And swapping Dex for Str is fine, which makes sense assuming he was a two-weapon fighter in life.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 22, 2008)

Those ability increases look good to me.


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## Shade (Oct 22, 2008)

Updated.   It's looking much better now.  

Did we ever decide on an amount for fast healing?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 22, 2008)

I thought 10, right?


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## Shade (Oct 22, 2008)

Sounds good.  Updated.

We need 10 (!) more feats.

A few suggestions:  Improved Critical (orc double axe), Power Attack, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will.


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## freyar (Oct 23, 2008)

I think the ones you just listed will do it.  (I think we only need 7 more.)  And the ability increases look good.


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## Shade (Oct 23, 2008)

You're right, I miscounted.   Updated.

I think all that's left is gear.   Gloves of Dex, cloak of Cha, bracers of armor, boots of speed, magical double axe?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 23, 2008)

I'd go for a magical chain shirt over bracers of armor.

This also highlights a problem with the template. AC. Our orc buddy's currently sitting pretty with an AC of 17 (!) at CR 25 (!!). Equipping him isn't going to cut it--a Power Attack from a 25th level fighter, and our buddy's a goner. We should add a flat bonus to natural armor (or deflection?) in addition to the profane one.


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## Shade (Oct 23, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> I'd go for a magical chain shirt over bracers of armor.
> 
> This also highlights a problem with the template. AC. Our orc buddy's currently sitting pretty with an AC of 17 (!) at CR 25 (!!). Equipping him isn't going to cut it--a Power Attack from a 25th level fighter, and our buddy's a goner. We should add a flat bonus to natural armor (or deflection?) in addition to the profane one.




Agreed.  I still like natural armor, based on the voidstone.  Would +8 suffice?


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## freyar (Oct 23, 2008)

The natural armor plus a pretty good set of chain should be ok, I think.  I'm always guessing with this epic stuff.  But yeah, this template has so many powerful SAs that these are kind of glass canons.


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## Shade (Oct 24, 2008)

Updated.

The gloves of Dex currently push its Dex higher than the max Dex allowed by a mithral chain shirt.  Do we want to go back to bracers of armor, or just "eat" the 1 point of Dex bonus to AC?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 24, 2008)

Just let it be lost.


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## Shade (Oct 24, 2008)

That works for me.   Updated.

Is that a bit more competitive AC-wise?


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## freyar (Oct 24, 2008)

I think it's ok.   I'd sure love to turn this loose on someone after they think they've killed the BBEG with a sphere of annihilation.


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## Shade (Oct 24, 2008)

That would be pure rat-bastardly joy.  

Next!

A traditional monster from English folklore similar to skeletons is Bloody Bones. The monster’s full name is Rawhead-and-Bloody-Bones, and it is sometimes referred to as Old Bloody Bones or Tommy Rawhead. Samuel Johnson, in his l7th-century dictionary, defined the creature as “the name of a spectre, mentioned to fright children” (Here, spectre is, of course, used generically, and bears no relationship to the AD&D game monster of the same name.)

In Folklore Society County Publications (of England), Ruth Tongue quotes two informants who described Bloody Bones as living in dark shadowy places such as in deep cupboards, inside closets, or under the stairs. Those who are heroic enough to peep through a crack might get a glimpse of the dreadful crouching creature, with blood running down its face, seated waiting on a pile of bones that once belonged to children who told lies or said bad words. However, if you spied upon the monster, it knew about it and got you anyway.

Most creatures classed as “nursery bogies” are based on earlier legendary tales of monsters. In Lancashire and Yorkshire, Rawhead-and-Bloody-Bones is a kind of evil spirit haunting old marl pits and similar places. In Cornwall, Old Bloody Bones lives in abandoned mines, especially those near the sites of ancient battles.

Bloody Bones lies waiting to grab victims who pass nearby, dragging the unwary down into deep forbidding lairs.

*BLOODY BONES*
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1 (30% chance of 2-12)
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVE: 12.
HIT DICE: 3
% IN LAIR: 50%
TREASURE TYPE: 40% chance each of J-N
(B in lair if more than 1)
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-10
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Fear
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
lNTELLIGENCE: Low
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
SIZE: M
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil

Bloody bones are the undead, animated corpses of evil criminals cursed to continue their horrid trade long after they should have died. They look like bloody skeletons with a few shreds of flesh hanging on the bones. In fact, they resemble corpses left hanging on gibbets (a traditional punishment for criminals).

Bloody bones lair in hidden caves or deep concealed pits. They venture forth only to kill and rob victims. At the sight of a bloody bones, a character must make a saving throw vs. spells or else suffer the effects of a fear spell.  For the effects of damage vs. a bloody bones, treat the creature as if it were a skeleton (i.e., one-half damage from sharp weapons, etc.). The chance of a cleric turning a bloody bones is the same as the cleric’s chance to turn a shadow.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #138 (1988).


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 24, 2008)

They appear to be something akin to a lesser morgh, at least flavor-wise. Seems pretty straight-forward mechanically.

A few years back, I did a Rawhead and Bloody Bones based more on the bogey's appearance in the "Courtney Crumrin" comic-book. Mine was a hulking fey with high regenerative powers and the ability to squeeze into the tiniest of places. That last bit, at least, I think we should port over to this undead version--the flavor text mentions them squeezing into cupboards, after all.


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## freyar (Oct 26, 2008)

Agreed on squeezing.  Also, fear gaze or frightful presence/aura?


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## Steve Jung (Oct 27, 2008)

I think a frightful presence is more appropriate.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 27, 2008)

Seems more of a fear aura. It's "at the sight of", not "when it attacks."

Ooh. Fear gaze?


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2008)

For physical ability scores, somewhere between a skeleton and a mohrg?

Human Warrior Skeleton Abilities: Str 13, Dex 13
Mohrg Abilities: Str 21, Dex 19

Int is Low (5-7).

Average Wis, decent Cha?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 27, 2008)

Str 18, Dex 16, Con - , Int 6, Wis 13, Cha 15?


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## Shade (Oct 28, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.



> NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
> DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-10




Stick with this (presumably a slam attack?) or go with typical Medium skeleton attacks (2 claws at 1d4 damage)?

I could also see them wielding daggers and other rogue weapons.

For the "squeezing", something like the narrow berth ability recently given to some of the dinosaurs, or something more supernatural?


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## freyar (Oct 28, 2008)

Let's go with a slam but let them wield weapons.

Su for squeezing, I think.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 28, 2008)

Definately Su.


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## Shade (Oct 28, 2008)

Here's an attempt at the "squeezing"...

Squeeze (Su):  A bloody bones can squeeze through seemingly impossible portals.  As a move(?) action, a bloody bones can pass through an opening as if it were a Fine creature.

Should it have to end its movement in an area large enough to contain it?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 28, 2008)

I like the squeezing. Let's have it be able to fit into spaces as if it were Tiny. So that way, it could crawl inside of a cupboard or under a bed, but not, say, into a bottle of ink.


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## freyar (Oct 29, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> I like the squeezing. Let's have it be able to fit into spaces as if it were Tiny. So that way, it could crawl inside of a cupboard or under a bed, but not, say, into a bottle of ink.



Agreed.

Squeeze (Su): A bloody bones can squeeze through seemingly impossible portals. As a move action, a bloody bones can pass through an opening as if it were a Fine creature.  A bloody bones must end its movement in an region large enough to hold a Tiny creature, but it can take no actions other than movement unless it is in an area large enough that a Medium creature could normally squeeze through.

Is the limitation on actions too harsh?


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2008)

I think that looks reasonable.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 29, 2008)

I mightn't limit the actions that far-might just limit them in areas smaller than Tiny. I'm thinking of a panel from that comic I mentioned earlier, with Rawhead and Bloody Bones reaching out of a medicine cabinet to grab his victim.


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## freyar (Oct 29, 2008)

Wait, isn't a Tiny space (2.5 ft wide) the same as the space a Medium creature can squeeze through (1/2 its space)?


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2008)

Updated.

Fear Gaze (Su): Fear, 30 feet. A creature that meets the gaze of a bloody bones must succeed on a DC 13 Will save or be frightened for *x rounds*. A frightened creature becomes panicked. A panicked creature cowers in fear. This is a mind-affecting fear effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Wanna take the criminal aspect a step further and give them sneak attack?  It seems to fit nicely with their theme.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 29, 2008)

freyar said:


> Wait, isn't a Tiny space (2.5 ft wide) the same as the space a Medium creature can squeeze through (1/2 its space)?




Point taken. Had to think about that for a second...

Let's say frightened for 5 rounds. And I agree to sneak attack. One or two dice worth?


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## freyar (Oct 30, 2008)

These are probably CR 3, so 2 sneak attack dice, I think.

Fear gaze looks good w/5 rounds.

If you want to change the language in Squeeze for clarity, I'm ok with that.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 30, 2008)

If we give them +2d6 sneak attack, they'll be rather a bit better than a 3rd level rogue, which is also CR 3. I say 1d6.


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## Shade (Oct 30, 2008)

Updated.

Suggested weapon for the attack lines?

Skills: 12

Feats: 2

Environment: Any?

Organization: Solitary or x (2-12) 

Challenge Rating: 3?

Treasure: Half coins, no goods, no items?
They had J-N, which looks like...
J: 3-24 copper pieces per individual
K: 3-18 silver pieces per individual
L: 2-12 electrum pieces per individual
M: 2-8 gold pieces per individual
N: 1-6 platinum pieces per individual

Alignment: Usually neutral evil?

Advancement: x

Bloody bones are 5 to 6 feet tall and weigh about x pounds.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 30, 2008)

Scimitar for the weapon line. I like the treasure suggestion.

Skills: Hide, Move Silently, Spot?

Feats: Stealthy, Improved Initiative


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## freyar (Oct 30, 2008)

Agreed with everything suggested above.

Organization: Solitary or gang (2-12) 

Advancement: By character class?  Do sneak attack dice automatically stack, or should we mention it if we go with character class advancement?

75-175 lb. (A bit light for a human due to loss of flesh?)


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 30, 2008)

Sneak attack stacks from multiple sources. Might be a good idea to mention that their favored class is rogue.


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## Shade (Oct 30, 2008)

freyar said:


> Advancement: By character class?  Do sneak attack dice automatically stack, or should we mention it if we go with character class advancement?




That is generally the case, but it wouldn't hurt to list it.

Alternatively, we could have them advance by Hit Dice, and borrow this from the nathzarune rakshasa...

Sneak Attack: The naztharune rakshasa's sneak attack ability is equivalent to that of a rogue of a level equal to the creature's Hit Dice.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 30, 2008)

I like them advancing by character class, personally.


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## freyar (Oct 31, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> I like them advancing by character class, personally.



Yeah, I do, too.


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## Shade (Oct 31, 2008)

Updated.  Does that cover it?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 31, 2008)

Looks like it to me. Are we done here?


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## Shade (Oct 31, 2008)

I think so!


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2008)

*Lesser Colossus*
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 8
MOVE: 12”
HIT DICE: 11 (50 hp)
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 3-18
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Non-
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
SIZE: L (11' tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil

*Greater Colossus*
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 8
MOVE: 18”
HIT DICE: 33 (150 hp)
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 10-60
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Non-
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
SIZE: L ( 33' tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil

In a story entitled "The Colossus of Ylourgne" by Clark Ashton Smith, the evil Nathaire created a terrifying giant undead creature. "The Colossus of Ylourgne" was first published in the magazine Weird Tales (June, 1934) and has since been published in hardback and paperback as part of the collection of stories entitled Genius Loci and Other Tales.

Nathaire was a powerful alchemist, astrologer, and necromancer. Working with his 10 students, he robbed a graveyard of all its corpses. In a kind of magical assembly-line, the corpses were stripped of all clothing, then the flesh and bones were separated into separate vats and rendered down to a pliable mass. All the bones were then reshaped and rehardened to form a huge skeleton. Finally, the skeleton was once again fleshed out. The separate ingredients were thus used to create a giant zombie. Along similar lines, the lesser and greater colossus herein may be added to the AD&D game.

A colossus is essentially a giant zombie magically made from many corpses. A lesser colossus is about 11' tall (between the size of a hill giant and a stone giant). A greater colossus is an amazing 33' tall (larger than the largest titan). Either one can rip up a whole tree to use as a club, doing double-normal damage. Otherwise, colossi use only their massive fists.

Colossi have the same invulnerabilities to magic and cold as do normal zombies, and they always lose initiative from their slowness. Holy water does 2-8 hp damage to them. A cleric has the same chance to turn a lesser colossus as he would a mummy.  The greater colossus is in the "special" category regarding turning it away by a cleric.  

Note that the actual Colossus of Ylourgne and many other monsters and characters created by Clark Ashton Smith appear in the section on Averoigne, which is part of the D&D module X2 Castle Amber (Chateau d'Amberville). While most sections of that module were completely made-up, the Averoigne section was based on the Averoigne stories of Clark Ashton Smith and was written with the express permission of the Clark Ashton Smith estate.

A skeletal version of this monster, the bone colossus, appears in the AD&D module GDQ 1-7 Queen of the Spiders, page 111. This colossus even regenerates its wounds!

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #138 (1988).


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2008)

We might be able to reduce the flesh colossus in the Epic-Level Handbook to Gargantuan size for the greater, and Large for the lesser, with some modifications to special abilities.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 2, 2008)

I'm glad you mentioned the flesh colossus from the ELH. That was a construct, wasn't it? Do we want to make these guys constructs (like massive flesh golems) or undead?


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2008)

Yep, it's a construct, which does seem more appropriate here.  The only issue I see is that the originals could be turned, but we could always give it a vulnerability to turning as an exception.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 2, 2008)

Yeah; we could make their magic immunity such that they're healed by negative energy, harmed by positive energy, and treated as undead for the purpose of spells that specifically affect the undead.


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## freyar (Dec 3, 2008)

I like that approach.  Hopefully the lesser colossus won't just end up being a zombie giant that way.


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2008)

Shrinking the flesh colossus to Gargantuan and 33 HD (and stripping out the controlling spirit bits and irrelevant special abilities) yields...

Gargantuan Construct
Hit Dice: 30d10+60 (195 hp)
Initiative: -2
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 19 (-4 size, -2 Dex, +15 natural), touch 4, flat-footed 19
Base Attack/Grapple: +22/+42
Attack: Club +26 melee (4d6+12) or slam +26 melee (3d6+8)
Full Attack: Club +26 melee (4d6+12) or 2 slams +26 melee (3d6+8)
Space/Reach: 20 ft./20 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Construct traits, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to magic, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +8, Will +10
Abilities: Str 27, Dex 6, Con -, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 1
Skills: -
Feats: -
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral evil
Advancement: x
Level Adjustment: -

The Str works out to be a bit low, as a flesh golem sized up to Gargantuan would have Str 37 (which is, ironically, 2 higher than the flesh colossus).


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 4, 2008)

Let's ignore the ELH colossus as a basis for stats. I think the sized-up flesh golem Str is closer to the mark. We should also do something about that terrible natural armor.


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2008)

Taking a different approach, here's a flesh golem upsized to 30 HD and  Gargantuan, with a few changes based on colossus's original writeup and a proper upsizing of a greatclub.

Gargantuan Construct
Hit Dice: 30d10+60 (195 hp)
Initiative: -2
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
AC: 21 (–4 size, –2 Dex, +17 natural), touch 4, flat-footed 21
Base Attack/Grapple: +22/+47
Attack: Slam +31 melee (4d8+13) or greatclub +31 melee (4d8+19)
Full Attack: 2 slams +31 melee (2d8+13) or greatclub +31 melee (4d8+19)
Space/Reach: 20 ft./20 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Construct traits, damage reduction 5/adamantine, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to magic, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +8, Will +10
Abilities: Str 37, Dex 7, Con —, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 1
Skills: -
Feats: -
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral evil
Advancement: x
Level Adjustment: -


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 4, 2008)

That I like better. We should inflate the natural armor and improve its damage reduction, but that looks pretty good as a baseline.


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2008)

Cool.  I think we need a namechange as well to avoid confusion with the multiple other colossi.   How about "necromantic colossus"?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 4, 2008)

Necromantic colossus works for me.


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Dec 5, 2008)

Looks pretty decent, but I'm not sure if the adamantine DR makes so much sense.  Maybe DR 15 or 20/slashing like a zombie?

It also reads like it should have the Single Actions Only SQ like zombies.


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## Shade (Dec 5, 2008)

Agreed to the DR change and single actions only.  

How does this look?

Immunity to Magic (Ex): A necromantic colossus is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below. 

A magical attack that deals positive energy damage (such as a cure spell) damages a necromantic colossus as if it were an undead creature. 

A magical attack that deals negative energy damage breaks heals 1 point of damage for each 3 points of damage the attack would otherwise deal. If the amount of healing would cause the necromantic colossus to exceed its full normal hit points, it gains any excess as temporary hit points. For example, a necromantic colossus hit by an inflict moderate wounds gains back 6 hit points if the damage total is 18 points. A necromantic colossus gets no saving throw against negative energy effects.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 6, 2008)

That looks pretty good!


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## freyar (Dec 6, 2008)

Agreed!  Shall we make it take damage from holy water and be turn-able (with high turn resistance), per the original text?  These are practically tomb-tainted.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 6, 2008)

freyar said:


> Agreed!  Shall we make it take damage from holy water and be turn-able (with high turn resistance), per the original text?  These are practically tomb-tainted.




I agree.


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2008)

Updated.

We're nearly done already.  We'll need CR, advancement, weight, and construction.


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## freyar (Dec 8, 2008)

This is turned "as special," so IIRC it should get turn resistance.  +4?

Shouldn't the 2 slams in the Full Attack each have the same damage as the slam in the normal Attack line?  (Though it can't actually take a full attack, can it?)

I'm going to guess CR 13.   It's probably not actually any better than an iron golem, and it's definitely worse than a greater stone golem.  The single action only hurts it a lot if you ask me.


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2008)

Nice catches.  I believe the full attack line was a holdover from the work-in-progress phase.  

Updated.

Advancement: 31-60 HD (Gargantuan); 61-99 HD (Colossal)?

A necromantic colossus stands 33 feet tall and weighs x pounds.


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2008)

Advancement seems good.

Uhh, 10000 lb?


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2008)

Updated.

Let's work on construction...



> Nathaire was a powerful alchemist, astrologer, and necromancer. Working with his 10 students, he robbed a graveyard of all its corpses. In a kind of magical assembly-line, the corpses were stripped of all clothing, then the flesh and bones were separated into separate vats and rendered down to a pliable mass. All the bones were then reshaped and rehardened to form a huge skeleton. Finally, the skeleton was once again fleshed out. The separate ingredients were thus used to create a giant zombie. Along similar lines, the lesser and greater colossus herein may be added to the AD&D game.






			
				Flesh Golem said:
			
		

> The pieces of a flesh golem must come from normal human corpses that have not decayed significantly. Assembly requires a minimum of six different bodies—one for each limb, the torso (including head), and the brain. In some cases, more bodies may be necessary. Special unguents and bindings worth 500 gp are also required. Note that creating a flesh golem requires casting a spell with the evil descriptor.
> 
> Assembling the body requires a DC 13 Craft (leatherworking) check or a DC 13 Heal check.
> 
> CL 8th; Craft Construct, animate dead, bull’s strength, geas/quest, limited wish, caster must be at least 8th level; Price 20,000 gp; Cost 10,500 gp + 780 XP.






			
				Flesh Colossus said:
			
		

> Only a master necromancer of surpassing power can create a flesh colossus. The bodies of not less than three hundred previously animated Medium humanoid creatures must be stripped of their flesh and the bones, which are then rendered in two great vats. The resulting semi-liquid bone-paste is then cast into a new articulated skeleton of great size, to which the rendered flesh is applied like wet clay to shape the figure. Finally, the necromancer must bind a ghost of at least 10 HD (the more powerful the better) into the colossus to act as the controlling spirit. Without the controlling spirit, the colossus is just an oversized zombie; with it, it functions as a golem of great size and repugnant appearance. If no ghost is available, the necromancer may occupy the colossus himself by casting magic jar.
> 
> The colossus costs 760,000 gp to create, which includes 100,000 gp for the body. Assembling the body takes no great skill, and many flesh colossi reveal that fact in their uncouth forms.
> 
> The creator must be 29th level and able to cast epic spells. Completing the ritual drains 30,600 XP from the creator and requires magic jar, limited wish, polymorph any object, and finger of death.


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2008)

Let's go with the basics of the flesh colossus (making the paste, etc, since that's in the original text).    I'd say maybe 50 corpses (but we can drop the previously animated bit). Then we can drop the ghost.  Required spells: animate dead, limited wish, polymorph any object?  Maybe geas/quest, too.  CL 16?  Cost around 80,000 gp (like iron golem)?

Something weird about the flesh golem: how can an 8th level anyone cast limited wish?  You have to go buy a scroll from someone?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 9, 2008)

freyar said:


> Something weird about the flesh golem: how can an 8th level anyone cast limited wish?  You have to go buy a scroll from someone?




Yep. This was actually a plot point in Paizo's Curse of the Crimson Throne AP.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2008)

Like so?

The pieces of a necromantic colossus must come from normal human corpses that have not decayed significantly. Assembly requires a minimum of fifty different bodies. In some cases, more bodies may be necessary. Special unguents and bindings worth 5,000 gp are also required. Note that creating a necromantic colossus requires casting a spell with the evil descriptor.

Assembling the body requires a DC 20 Craft (leatherworking) check or a DC 20 Heal check.

CL 16th; Craft Construct, animate dead, geas/quest, limited wish, polymorph any object, caster must be at least 16th level; Price 80,000 gp; Cost 40,500 gp + 3,000 XP.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 9, 2008)

I dunno about Craft (leatherworking). The flavor text (and a Hellboy comic inspired by the original story) involved melting down the bodies, then reassembling them in vast molds, which is both unique and much grosser.


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2008)

Agreed.  In fact, I particularly wanted the text "The corpses must be stripped of their flesh and the bones, which are then rendered in two great vats. The resulting semi-liquid bone-paste is then cast into a new articulated skeleton of great size, to which the rendered flesh is applied like wet clay to shape the figure."  This is in the flesh colossus and the original text.  I don't think we need a Craft or Heal check.  Also, I'm ok with special unguents, but I don't think we need bindings.  The numbers seem fine, though.

Interesting about CotCT.  I wish I had shelf space for all the Pathfinders.  One day...


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 9, 2008)

Use Craft (sculpture) for the skill involved? A giant composite monster is a lot like a statue made of clay... in a way I'd rather not think too much about.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2008)

Ewww!

How about Craft (sculpting) or Knowledge (architecture and engineering), the latter for the creation of the giant vats?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 9, 2008)

How about both? A fairly easy Craft check to make the body man-shaped, and a higher DC Knowledge (arch and engineering) check to make the molds. The molds, however, could be reused.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2008)

Revising...

The pieces of a necromantic colossus must come from normal human corpses that have not decayed significantly. Assembly requires a minimum of fifty different bodies. The corpses must be stripped of their flesh and the bones, which are then rendered in two great vats. The resulting semi-liquid bone-paste is then cast into a new articulated skeleton of great size, to which the rendered flesh is applied like wet clay to shape the figure. Special unguents and bindings worth 5,000 gp are also required. Note that creating a necromantic colossus requires casting a spell with the evil descriptor.

Assembling the body requires a DC 20 Craft (sculpting) check.  Alternatively, special vats may be designed with a DC 30 Knowledge (architecture and engineering) check.  These vats may be used to create additional necromantic colossi, provided the other prereqs are met.

CL 16th; Craft Construct, animate dead, geas/quest, limited wish, polymorph any object, caster must be at least 16th level; Price 80,000 gp; Cost 40,500 gp + 3,000 XP.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 10, 2008)

Looks fantastic!


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Looks fantastic!



Agreed!


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2008)

Updated.  I think we're done.

Downsize to Large and 11 HD (with a few other slight modifications) for the lesser?



> *Lesser Colossus*
> FREQUENCY: Very rare
> NO. APPEARING: 1-2
> ARMOR CLASS: 8
> ...






> A cleric has the same chance to turn a lesser colossus as he would a mummy.


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

Yeah, I think so.  Seems like no turn resistance in the turning vulnerability.


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2008)

Do we want to call it "lesser necromantic colossus", and change the other to "greater", or give it a different name, since it is far from colossal?


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

I think "lesser necromantic colossus" is ok (no need to add greater to the other one), but we could go with something else.  Is there a necromantic golem anywhere?  This is sort of between a flesh golem and a zombie, really.


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2008)

There's a cadaver golem, but I believe "necromantic golem" is still unused.  In fact, that makes the most sense, as a necromantic colossus implies a really big necromantic golem, much like a stone colossus implies a really big stone golem.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 10, 2008)

Necromantic golem is good.


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

So, just those few changes.  Want to make the construction more like a flesh golem but maybe with a few different spells?


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

I didn't modify the construction yet.

DR amount?

Weight?


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

Just DR 5, I think.  How about 1000 lb (twice as much as a flesh golem)?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 10, 2008)

Agreed to both.


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## Shade (Dec 12, 2008)

CR 8?  (Slightly better than a flesh golem)

Here's an attempt at construction...

The pieces of a necromantic golem must come from normal human corpses that have not decayed significantly. Assembly requires a minimum of ten different bodies. The corpses must be stripped of their flesh and the bones, which are then rendered in two vats. The resulting semi-liquid bone-paste is then cast into a new articulated skeleton, to which the rendered flesh is applied like wet clay to shape the figure. Special unguents and bindings worth 1,000 gp are also required. Note that creating a necromantic golem requires casting a spell with the evil descriptor.

Assembling the body requires a DC 15 Craft (sculpting) check. Alternatively, special vats may be designed with a DC 20 Knowledge (architecture and engineering) check. These vats may be used to create additional necromantic golems, provided the other prereqs are met.

CL 8th; Craft Construct, animate dead, death ward, geas/quest, limited wish, caster must be at least 8th level; Price 25,000 gp; Cost 13,500 gp + 960 XP.


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## freyar (Dec 12, 2008)

I'm actually thinking slightly worse than a flesh golem due to the single actions, so let's compromise and go with CR 7. 

Ok, not all these spells are on any single spell list (death ward and limited wish I think).  Let's drop death ward and go with bull's strength as the flesh golem.  I don't really like limited wish or geas/quest either b/c of caster level, so maybe lesser geas and polymorph?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 12, 2008)

I would suggest false life rather than bull's strength or death ward.


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## freyar (Dec 12, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> I would suggest false life rather than bull's strength or death ward.



Brilliant!  I agree whole-heartedly.


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2008)

freyar said:


> Brilliant!  I agree whole-heartedly.




Ditto.  

Updated.  Work complete?


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## freyar (Dec 16, 2008)

Maybe.  Any thoughts about ditching geas/quest for lesser geas and limited wish for polymorph or equivalent?  I just don't like having the spells higher than the required caster level can actually cast.


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2008)

Sure, that makes sense.  Updated.


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## freyar (Dec 16, 2008)

I'm satisfied, then!


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## Shade (Jan 15, 2009)

Echohawk, I think we've found a deathless candidate.  


*Vartha*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: High (13)
TREASURE: Varies
ALIGNMENT: Any
NO. APPEARING: 1 or 2-12
ARMOR CLASS: 0
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 9 +18 (63 hp)
THAC0: 7
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3/2, by weapon type
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2d4 + 5
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spellcasting, magical items
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immunity to some spells
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (5’-7’)
MORALE: Fearless (20)
XP VALUE: 18,000

Vartha means “guardian spirit”. It is one of the few undead that are not necessarily malign. A vartha is a guardian spirit in many senses. It can be a spirit conjured or cursed to protect a specific area or treasure.  It can also be a spirit that appears to aid a character in times of need. Lastly, it can be a spirit sent to hunt down wrongdoers.

A vartha does not share the generally gruesome appearance of the undead.  It looks like a newly dead corpse, after the body has been treated by a mortician.

Combat: A vartha has high attribute scores (S 18/75, D 16, C 16, I 13, W 17, Ch 15). It wears partial plate armor +2 (AC 2) and wields a morning star +2. The magical items and attribute scores have been calculated into the vartha’s statistics.

While it is undead, a vartha should otherwise be treated as a fighter-cleric with the following clerical spells, each of which can be cast at the rate of one spell per round, once each per day: bless, command, detect evil, light, remove fear; sanctuary; augury, detect charm, hold person, know alignment, silence 15’ radius; animate dead, dispel magic, locate object, remove curse; detect lie, tongues; commune.

A vartha can be of any alignment. One of evil alignment may have the reverse of appropriate spells (e.g., curse instead of bless).

A vartha is not affected by sleep, charm, hold, cold, electricity, poison, or death magic. A raise dead spell returns it to life as a 9th-level fighter/9th-level cleric. If the vartha serves anyone involuntarily, it need not make a save vs. spells against the raise dead spell, and the spell automatically works. The chance for a cleric to turn a vartha is the same as the chance to turn a spectre.

Habitat/Society: Vartha vary in motivation.  A vartha guarding its own treasure may have voluntarily become undead through greed. A vartha forced to guard a treasure not its own may be under a curse or commanded by a more powerful being.  A vartha sent by the DM to help a character may be that character’s guardian spirit, perhaps an ancestor. A vartha hunting down a wrongdoer may have been a marshall in life, continuing its mission after death. Vartha do share one personality trait: They are all highly motivated, even driven, whatever their purpose.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #198 (1993).


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## Echohawk (Jan 15, 2009)

Shade said:


> Echohawk, I think we've found a deathless candidate.



Woot!


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 15, 2009)

Yeah, deathless definitely fits most vartha. They can be any alignment, though--so we should also do a "dark vartha" as the undead.


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Yeah, deathless definitely fits most vartha. They can be any alignment, though--so we should also do a "dark vartha" as the undead.




I like that!


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## freyar (Jan 16, 2009)

I do too.  Also, this looks like a monster rather than template to me (even if undead sort of "ought" to be templates in some sense).


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2009)

That's funny, because this one screams "template!" at me.  In fact, it tied me to a chair and subjected me to subliminal images while bombarding me with the word "template" in various languages.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 16, 2009)

It looks like a template... that's only applied to 6th level dual-classed fighter/clerics. That's a narrow enough focus for me to think it should be a monster. If we broadened the focus, though, I could see it as a template.


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## freyar (Jan 16, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> It looks like a template... that's only applied to 6th level dual-classed fighter/clerics. That's a narrow enough focus for me to think it should be a monster. If we broadened the focus, though, I could see it as a template.



That was my feeling, too.


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## Shade (Jan 20, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> It looks like a template... that's only applied to 6th level dual-classed fighter/clerics. That's a narrow enough focus for me to think it should be a monster. If we broadened the focus, though, I could see it as a template.




That's exactly why I thought template...the focus was too narrow.

But I'm fine with just going the monster route if you guys would prefer, as long as we cut out the extremely limited thing they revert to if raised.


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## freyar (Jan 20, 2009)

The problem is that I can't figure out what a template would actually grant if these are specifically fighter/cleric vartha's.  I'm fine with template if you can tell me that.   Or cutting out the raise dead instructions and leaving them as monsters.


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## Shade (Jan 20, 2009)

As written, they aren't very exciting creatures.  All they really gain over being a fighter cleric is:


Deathless traits
Immunity to cold and electricity
+2 turn resistance

In other words, they are less exciting than a skeleton or zombie.  

I'm thinking regardless of the approach we take, they need some jazzing up to justify conversion.

Thoughts?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 20, 2009)

I think we should stat it out as a monster, deathless, created from the remains of a holy warrior that fights beyond death. The monster would have clerical casting as a 6th level character, have that fighter training thing we gave to the blood riders (was that it? Kazguroth's undead lackeys), and those above features. Perhaps Sacred Toughness and/or Grace, perhaps DR 5/evil.


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## freyar (Jan 21, 2009)

That sounds like a good blueprint!


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2009)

OK, let's figure out ability scores to get the ball rolling.

The original writeup has S 18/75, D 16, C 16, I 13, W 17, Ch 15.

The exceptional Strength becomes Str 20 per the conversion guide.   Cha might need a slight boost.

How about Str 20, Dex 16, Con -, Int 13, Wis 17, Cha 17?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 23, 2009)

Those ability scores appeal to me. Do we want to put them in armor, or will we get their AC just by natural armor and Dex?


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2009)

I think armor would be great.  Since the original wore "partial plate armor", I'd recommend half-plate.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 23, 2009)

Half plate, however, would conflict with that lovely 16 Dex. I recommend breastplate, or something mithril.


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## freyar (Jan 24, 2009)

A mithral half-plate would work, but maybe it's a bit expensive.  Elven chain is a bit less than half as much, but still pretty good.  Breastplate would be the cheap alternative.  So I guess it depends on how much treasure we want to give it.


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## Shade (Jan 27, 2009)

Let's go with a breastplate, since it fits both flavor and function.

Added to Homebrews.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 27, 2009)

Feats: Weapon Focus (morningstar), Weapon Spec (morningstar), Improved Critical (morningstar), Power Attack.

Ranks in Spot, Listen, Concentration, Know (religion), Sense Motive, Diplomacy?


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## freyar (Jan 27, 2009)

That sounds good to me.

Assuming these will be always Good or Neutral, leaving Evil for the "dark vartha," how about sample domains of Good and Protection?  

What do we want to give these to distinguish them from dark vartha?  I'm thinking some "good" ability, maybe something protective, to swap out for something destructive.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 28, 2009)

Lay on hands, perhaps? Or an aura of hope, that causes non-evil creatures to gain a +2 morale bonus on saves within X feet?


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## freyar (Jan 28, 2009)

Let's do the aura of hope, 20 ft.  And the dark ones can have an aura of despair.


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## Shade (Jan 28, 2009)

I like it.  

Updated.

Should we let them turn undead like clerics of their level?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 28, 2009)

I don't think so, no.


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## freyar (Jan 28, 2009)

While there's nothing exactly that calls for turning, it would give us another point of contrast with the dark varthas.  I kind of like the idea.  What about turning  as a cleric  of HD/2?

Turning to the spell list:
0 - cure minor wounds, detect poison, guidance, resistance, virtue


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 28, 2009)

I'm not keen on turning because then it might as well be a cleric/fighter with a template slapped on. I'd rather make it more distinct. I do like the idea of it interacting differently with undead, though. Hide from undead on permanently, perhaps?

Rest of the spells: 
1st level--cure light wounds, divine favor, protection from evil (D), remove fear, shield of faith
2nd level--bull's strength, cure moderate wounds, hold person, shield other (D), sound burst
3rd level--cure serious wounds, dispel magic, invisibility purge, protection from energy (D)

I'm not sure if it has spontaneous healing or not. If it does, we should specify, and replace the cures above with sanctuary, aid and prayer, respectively.


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## freyar (Jan 29, 2009)

It casts as a cleric, so it should get spontaneous casting.  Good catch.  Could swap in purify food and drink at 0th level.

Hide from undead works, though what is the reverse for the dark vartha?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 29, 2009)

freyar said:


> Hide from undead works, though what is the reverse for the dark vartha?




Command undead as an SLA?


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## freyar (Jan 29, 2009)

Ok, but since hide from undead doesn't seem so powerful, maybe command undead only 1 or 3/day?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 29, 2009)

Sure.


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2009)

Updated.

Should the hide from undead be a supernatural ability that allows it to remain invisible to undead even when attacking (similar to greater invisibility)?  Or just make it an at-will SLA?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 30, 2009)

I'm not sure about greater invisibility from undead... it's kind of cool, but it might be too powerful.


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## freyar (Jan 30, 2009)

Let's make it an at will SLA.  I think that's reasonable compared to 3/day command undead on the dark version, right?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 30, 2009)

Sounds pretty equivalent.


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2009)

Updated.

Caster level for hide from undead?

Organization: Solitary or x (2-12) 
x = Guard detail?  

Challenge Rating: 9?  They are better than crypt wardens (CR 8), but a few HD less than unying coucilors (CR 9), although their spells and martial abilities might offset the difference

Treasure: Double standard?

Advancement: x  (We could go "by character class", allowing cleric levels to stack with their innate spellcasting, or provide an "advanced varthas" sidebar to explain how to improve spellcasting with increased Hit Dice).

A vartha stands 5 to 7 feet tall and weighs x pounds.


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## freyar (Jan 30, 2009)

Might as well make it CL = HD.

Guard detail sounds good.

Sure, CR 9.  

Double standard treasure.

by character class.

100-300 lb?  Like a normal person?  (How much does a 7-footer weigh, anyways?)


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 30, 2009)

CL = HD for hide from undead. CR 9 strikes me as reasonable, and I like it advancing by class more than by HD.


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2009)

Updated.

Dark vartha spell list/domains?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 31, 2009)

I think we should differentiate the dark vartha more as well. Give it its own stat block, make it undead. Raise Str, drop Dex, switch out the breastplate for spiked full plate.

Domains... Death and Destruction?


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## freyar (Jan 31, 2009)

That sounds like a good idea, but let's keep them about the same CR.


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## Shade (Feb 3, 2009)

Sounds good to me.  Added to Homebrews.

Updated vartha as well to remove dark vartha bits.


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## freyar (Feb 4, 2009)

Looking fairly good.  Needs damage from the armor spikes.  

These look slightly tougher than the regular varthas -- think it's still CR 9?

Spells:
0 - detect magic, resistance, virtue, guidance x2?
1 - cause fear*, command, deathwatch, doom, obscuring mist
...


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## Shade (Feb 4, 2009)

Updated.

I think they still seem fine at CR 9.  In fact, they may be overrated.  A mohrg has higher HD and deadlier abilities, and is only CR 8.


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## freyar (Feb 4, 2009)

Think we should drop both varthas to CR 8?

2 - death knell*, hold person, shatter, silence, sound burst
3 - bestow curse, contagion*, deeper darkness, dispel magic


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## Shade (Feb 4, 2009)

Possibly.  Let's get Demiurge's take when he finds his way back.

The spells look good.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 5, 2009)

Replace obscuring mist with divine favor, shatter with spiritual weapon, and deeper darkness with blindness/deafness. It doesn't have any way of seeing through its own darkness or mists, and by the time its encountered, everyone will probably have +1 weapons and armor.


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## freyar (Feb 5, 2009)

Sure thing!


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2009)

Updated.

Anything else?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 6, 2009)

Looks good to me!


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## freyar (Feb 8, 2009)

Same here, though I'm still not sure if we should drop both the varthas to CR 8.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 8, 2009)

They do hit harder than a morgh and have the spellcasting... I'd be fine either way.


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2009)

Let's drop 'em to 8.  That paralyzing touch attack of the mohrg really raises the bar, methinks.


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## freyar (Feb 9, 2009)

Then we're done.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 9, 2009)

Any more Moldvay monsters that are better suited for fey-hood, like the calliwhatzits?


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2009)

I'll see what I can find.


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## Shade (Feb 10, 2009)

Note:  This is *the* wendigo, a unqiue epic creature.

If ghouls personify the fear of the wilderness and Black Annis personifies the fear of death, Wendigo personifies the fear of cannibalism. The origin of Wendigo comes from the Indian tribes of Canada.

The Canadian wilderness can be a terrifying place in the winter for people who have only a subsistence economy. Living by hunting is always a chancy life. There are times of plenty, but there are also times when game is scarce. During lean times, food can be gathered from the wild. During the winter, however, food is often unavailable. In the past, when there were few good methods of preserving food, there was the very real possibility that food would run out before spring. The problem was increased by the natural tension of people cooped up together. 

Anthropologists refer to the extreme fear of cannibalism, coupled with a kind of "cabin-fever," as Wendigo psychosis. They hypothesize that the fear itself, if it grew too great, might trigger a psychotic hallucination of Wendigo.

Indian myths of Wendigo were carried over into more modern Canadian folklore, though the single entity now became numerous creatures, half phantom and half beast, who live in the forests and prey on human beings, particularly children.  These wendigos might be people who entered into a pact with certain evil spirits that lurk in the forest and help these people kill their victims. Perhaps these wendigos were humans gazed upon the mythical being Wendigo, as in the Indian myths.

The legend of this creature has been immortalized in Algernon Blackwood's short story "The Wendigo," first published in 1907. Versions of Wendigo have worked their way into some of the stories of the Cthulhu Mythos; in fact, the Old One named Ithaqua, the Wind Walker, is essentially a reworking of the Wendigo legends to fit into the mythos.

Like Black Annis, Wendigo is on the borderline between the undead and other kinds of monsters. Even if the DM chooses to consider Wendigo as undead, the monster would be too powerful to turn, so the choice makes little practical difference.

*WENDIGO*
FREQUENCY: Unique
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -5
MOVE: 24"
HIT DICE: 30 (135 hp)
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 3-30
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 75%
INTELLIGENCE: Supra-genius
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
SIZE: L (15' tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: 250
Attack/Defense Modes: All/all

Wendigo sometimes appears as a giant spectral being, part human and part animal, but his appearance varies because Wendigo is so chaotic that his body constantly changes. Everyone who sees Wendigo sees him differently, since Wendigo's form reflects a person's deepest fears.

In addition to his physical attacks, Wendigo can summon 2-24 ghouls, 1-6 ghasts, and 1-3 wind walkers, one group each per day. Wendigo can use this summoning power once per turn until, after three turns, he has summoned each kind of monster.

Anyone looking at Wendigo must save vs. spells or be affected by fear. If the save fails, the person must make a second saving throw against death magic. If this second save also fails, then the individual becomes a servant of Wendigo and will be under his complete control. The control can only be broken by reducing Wendigo to zero or less hit points, slaying him.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #138 (1988).


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 10, 2009)

Oh god. Another wendigo conversion. We've got... let's see...
wendigo template, Fiend Folio
Wendigo, Pathfinder #6
Witigo, Creature Collection 3
And Cleon's three (!) wendigos in his "Fearsome Critters" thread.

And that's just off the top of my head.

The Pathfinder Wendigo is probably most similar to this one--CR 17, native outsider. I've never heard of wendigos summoning things or dominating people before. Generally they just infect them with their hunger. 

What are wind walkers? Lesser wendigoids from the same article, I imagine?


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## Shade (Feb 10, 2009)

Its wendigo madness!   Perhaps we should devote an entire month to nothing but wendigoes?  

The wind walker is a variant air elemental from back in the day.  Here's a conversion:
Wind Walker

I'd suggest we rename this fellow to something like "Great Wendigo" or "Legendary Wendigo" to attempt to alleviate some of the confusion.


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## freyar (Feb 11, 2009)

Legendary wendigo sounds appropriate.  And let's make it fey for fun -- are any of the others fey?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 11, 2009)

The wendigo template certainly is.


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2009)

So 30 HD?

Int is listed as Supra-genius.  Wendigo template gives Str +4, Dex +8, Con +4, Wis +2, Cha +4.  So it looks like it should have good ability scores across the board, with Dex being the highest.  Suggestions?


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## freyar (Feb 11, 2009)

Str 22, Dex 27, Con 20, Int 19, Wis 17, Cha 16?


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2009)

Let's bump Cha to 20, and I'll be happy.  



> Anyone looking at Wendigo must save vs. spells or be affected by fear. If the save fails, the person must make a second saving throw against death magic. If this second save also fails, then the individual becomes a servant of Wendigo and will be under his complete control. The control can only be broken by reducing Wendigo to zero or less hit points, slaying him.




A dominating fear gaze?


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## freyar (Feb 12, 2009)

Seems about right to me.  Base off the vampire?


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2009)

I think so.  In fact, I think we've done this before...but where?


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## freyar (Feb 12, 2009)

Ok, let's just do it.  Might have been a greater vamp, but I'm not sure.

Dominating Fear (Su): This ability functions as a gaze attack with a range of 30 ft.  Any creature that looks at the Wendigo must make a DC X Will save or be frightened for 1 minute (?).  Any creature frightened by this ability must make a second DC X Will save or be dominated by the Wendigo as the spell dominate person (caster level X).


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2009)

That'll work.  Should we explicitly note that the domination is permanent until the wendigo's death?


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## freyar (Feb 13, 2009)

You're right, we should.


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## Shade (Feb 13, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Feb 13, 2009)

Summon Hungry Spirit (Sp): Three times per day, the Great Wendigo can automatically summon 2d12 ghouls, 1d6 ghasts, or 1d3 wind walkers.  This ability is the equivalent of an X level spell.

Those are the numbers from the original text, but I feel like ghouls aren't that much worse than ghasts to explain the discrepancy in numbers.  Want to make it more like 1d12?

Edit: Maybe we should also do a 3.5 version of the wind walker to go with this, too.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 14, 2009)

Ghouls, ghasts and windwalkers all are pretty pathetic summons for something with 30 HD.


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## freyar (Feb 14, 2009)

True that.  Devourers would be better and are thematically good.  Sticking with undead, nightshades are also fairly appropriate toughness but not as well themed.  Let's see if we can think of any other "hunger" or "wind" themed monsters we've converted...


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## GrayLinnorm (Feb 14, 2009)

Elder air elementals?

Famine spirits (MM2)?

Abyssal ghouls(FF)?


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2009)

Good suggestions.

We might also consider the elevated ghouls we converted recently.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 17, 2009)

Elevated ghouls are a good idea.


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## freyar (Feb 17, 2009)

Yeah, I like these suggestions too.  If we have to pick just one of the ghouls, let's go elevated just because we converted it ourselves.


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2009)

We could note others, like the famine spirit, as "if you're using x book".


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## freyar (Feb 18, 2009)

Sounds good.  How many options do we want to give?


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2009)

At the very least, the elder air elementals, elevated ghouls, and famine spirits.

Alternatively, we could allow it to summon X HD worth of elementals with the Air subtype and corporeal undead with ties to consuming flesh.  That leaves it wide open for the DM.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 18, 2009)

I'm not sure about famine spirits. They're CR 17-19 (and poorly designed enough that I rewrote them), which is probably about what Ol' Wendy here is.


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2009)

Oh...I forgot how tough those fellas were.  

How about we allow it to summon 30 HD worth of worth of elementals with the Air subtype and corporeal undead with ties to consuming flesh?   Thus, it could get 15 ghouls, 7 ghasts or bakas, 2 elevated ghouls, 3 breathdrinkers, or 1 elder air elemental plus a Medium and Small air elemental (and so on).


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## freyar (Feb 18, 2009)

Shade's more wide open option works, and we can give the others as examples.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 18, 2009)

Sounds good to me.


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2009)

Updated.

This fella's a bit light on the abilities.  Wanna borrow from the wendigo template, or other wendigo sources?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 18, 2009)

Absolutely. Generally, wendigo have the ability to

walk on the wind
terrify people to the point of wisdom damage
eat human flesh
make people eat human flesh
turn people who eat human flesh into wendigos

They are also associated with ice, wind and cold. So a breath weapon is not inappropriate, and would distinguish them from other wendigos out there, as I can't think of any with one.


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2009)

How about a cold breath weapon with a secondary effect of making people "go cannibal"?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 18, 2009)

Works for me!


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## freyar (Feb 19, 2009)

Agreed, and it should be a pretty hefty one, too.


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2009)

8d12 cold damage?

Maybe borrow from this for the cannibalistic bit?

Need to Feed (Ex): A ravenous creature is driven by a consuming hunger, not a lust for battle. Whenever it slays a living opponent, the ravenous undead must succeed at a DC 15 Will save or immediately stop to eat its kill. When eating, a ravenous creature can do nothing else. It loses its Dexterity bonus to AC and does not make attacks of opportunity.


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## freyar (Feb 20, 2009)

So a victim of the breath must make a save to avoid attacking (and eating if it kills) the nearest possible sentient victim?


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## Shade (Feb 23, 2009)

Yeah, that sounds like it fits the wendigo nicely.


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## freyar (Feb 23, 2009)

Something like this?

Ravenous Breath (Su): Once every 1d4 rounds, the Great Wendigo can breath a 60 ft cone (??) that does 8d12 cold damage.  A DC X Reflex save halves the damage.  In addition, any creature damaged by the breath weapon must make a DC X Will save or become ravenous.  On a failed save, the victim must immediately attack the nearest sentient creature; if the victim successfully kills its target, it will cease all other activities to eat its target.


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## Shade (Feb 23, 2009)

Looking good.  Let's add "with members of its own race taking preference" after the "nearest sentient creature".


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## freyar (Feb 24, 2009)

Excellent suggestion!


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## Shade (Feb 24, 2009)

Updated.

Currently, the Great Wendigo lacks an ability to "walk the wind".  Give it a fly speed, or a permanent air walk effect?  I think I prefer the latter for flavor.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 24, 2009)

Let's do that, then.


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## Shade (Feb 24, 2009)

Updated.

Any other special abilities?  Maybe immunity to cold?  Whispering wind as a SLA to torment victims?

Claws or slams?   Damage?

1 minute duration for frightened condition of gaze attack?  Caster level of domination effect?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 25, 2009)

Cold subtype seems appropriate. Claw attacks as well. I like whispering wind.


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## freyar (Feb 25, 2009)

I like all that. 1 minute is a fine duration for the fear, and CL doesn't matter for domination as we've modified the range and duration (the only things CL-dependent in the spell).  We might as well use CL=HD.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 25, 2009)

Claw damage... 2d6+Str per? Give it a secondary bite attack for 2d8+1/2 Str?


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## freyar (Feb 26, 2009)

Sounds good.


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2009)

Updated.

Damage reduction 20/cold iron or 15/cold iron and epic?

Skills: 9 at 33 ranks

Feats: 11 (4 can be epic)


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 26, 2009)

20 cold iron.


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2009)

Skills:  9 at 33 ranks
Bluff, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (nature), Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Survival, Tumble?

Feats: 11 (4 can be epic) 
Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dire Charge, Dodge, Improved Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Mobility, Multiattack, Spring Attack, Track (B), Weapon Finesse, Whirlwind Attack?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 26, 2009)

Feats look good. So do skills.


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2009)

Updated.

How about giving him scent and the "track by scent" bonus?

Environment: Any cold land?

Organization: Solitary or ravenous horde (Great Wendigo plus x elder air elementals, x ghouls, x ghasts, and x elevated ghouls)?

Challenge Rating: 20?  He's not nearly as tough as the CR 22 master of the wild hunt.

Treasure: None?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 27, 2009)

Agreed to any cold land, no treasure, tracking by scent. We may even want to give him keen scent, ala dire sharks.

CR 20 sounds good, but his AC is really low for that CR. It should be mid 30s, not  mid 20s. How about boosting natural armor up to +13 and giving him unearthly grace?


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## Shade (Feb 27, 2009)

Excellent ideas.  Updated.

Organization: Solitary or ravenous horde (Great Wendigo plus 30 Hit Dice worth of worth of elementals with the Air subtype and corporeal undead with ties to consuming flesh)?

The Great Wendigo is 15 feet tall and weighs x pounds. 

The Great Wendigo speaks Common, Sylvan and Auran?


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## freyar (Feb 28, 2009)

Agreed to all that.  If he's 15 ft tall and Large, and he's always hungry, let's make him skinny.  800 lb?


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2009)

Updated.

Work complete?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 3, 2009)

Unearthly grace isn't listed in the SQs line. Other than that, looks solid.


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## freyar (Mar 4, 2009)

Now he seems done.


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## Shade (Apr 15, 2009)

A spirit-ghoul is a type of ghoul which is actually some poor unfortunate victim possessed by an evil entity. The entity warps the physical appearance of the person so that the individual looks like a ghoul. The possession attempt is a long drawn-out process and has no bearing in combat (i.e., the spirit cannot take over some other body during melee).

*SPIRIT-GHOUL*
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-6
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVE: 12&#148;
HIT DICE: 3
% IN LAIR: 15%
TREASURE TYPE: B, Q, T
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 3
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Paralyzation
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 20%
INTELLIGENCE: Average
ALIGNMENT Chaotic evil
SIZE: M
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil

A spirit-ghoul is the end result of a human victim's possession by unknown demonic entities. Once so possessed, the victim becomes immune to sleep and charm spells, and has paralyzation powers like normal ghouls. Such spirit-ghouls look just like normal ghouls, and the two can often be found together in a pack. Exorcism will work against a spirit-ghoul. A detailed examination by a high-level cleric will reveal the possession. Thus, unlike normal ghouls, a spirit-ghoul is not necessarily doomed to be a ghoul forever. In fact, if a spirit-ghoul is knocked unconscious but not killed, it can be bound so that the demon can later be exorcised. A character killed by a spirit-ghoul does not risk becoming a ghoul. Clerics can turn these spirit-ghouls as they can normal ghouls.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #138 (1988).


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## freyar (Apr 15, 2009)

Template?  Work this in with the possession rules either from FF or FC1?


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## Cleon (Apr 21, 2009)

freyar said:


> Template?  Work this in with the possession rules either from FF or FC1?




That was my second thought, my first thought being "what happens if a Cleric gets a 'destroy' result with a turn attempt - does it count as a successful exorcism?"

But, yes, a template looks like the way to go. I'd think it turns the possessed into a Monstrous Humanoid with pseudo-undead powers - some immunities, vulnerability to turning and a ghoul's paralysis. It probably wouldn't include ghoul fever, as there's no mention of the Spirit-Ghoul creating more of its own kind.


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## Shade (Apr 29, 2009)

I can agree with all of that except the change to monstrous humanoid type.


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## freyar (Apr 29, 2009)

Yeah, these seem to be outsiders that possess and grant abilities to their victims.  Actually, could these be loumarae?  Or whatever we might be allowed to call them?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 30, 2009)

Loumara would be flavorful, but decidedly not OGL.


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## freyar (Apr 30, 2009)

Well, we could make it a pseudo-loumara.  There was a demon lord that we basically made an obyrith.  Make the mechanics basically the same, but don't use the trademarked name.  You know the strategy.


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2009)

Indeed.  Incoporeal demon that grants its hosts paralyzation attack and some undead qualities?


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## freyar (Apr 30, 2009)

Sounds right to me.  To simplify the possession, do you want to rip from ghost's malevolence or go look up whatever loumarae do?


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2009)

Loumara reference the Demonic Possession rules in FC1, which aren't OGL.  So the ghost route may be the way to go, with a sidebar mentioning they can be treated as loumara (and thus use those rules) if used with FC1.   Thoughts?


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## freyar (May 1, 2009)

From flipping through FC1, I noticed that the dybbuk (1 of only 2 loumara) don't really use the full possession rules.  They just take over a corpse.  So, to simulate the possession rules, let's steal from malevolence for the spirit-ghoul to become a "rider" and grant the victim a second save to resist transformation (successful save means immune to transformation for 24 hours).  So we'd essentially be writing a statblock for the incorporeal fiend and a small template for the transformed victim.

How's that work?


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## Shade (May 5, 2009)

That'll probably work.

Use ghould ability scores for the spirit-ghoul?   Of course, we'll need to add a Con score since it isn't undead.


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## freyar (May 5, 2009)

Yeah, that would work.  Or do you want to do a simple template?  Just turn the victim into a native Outsider and tack on some special abilities, maybe a stat boost or two.


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## Shade (May 8, 2009)

Don't you think we need the possessing creature so it can be fought off/prevented?


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## freyar (May 10, 2009)

Oh, absolutely!  I meant the template for the victim as opposed to just using a modified ghoul. 

Now I'm a little confused.  Did you want to use the ghoul stats for the incorporeal outsider?


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## Shade (May 11, 2009)

Yes, minus the Strength score, of course.


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## freyar (May 11, 2009)

Oh, good.  Incorporeal critters with Str kind of bother me.

Ready for homebrews?


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## Shade (May 11, 2009)

Sure!  Added.


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## freyar (May 11, 2009)

Do the victims get the "weapons count as chaotic and evil aligned" bit?  Also, they need to be vulnerable to turning.  Finally, I think it's reasonable to give them Con-based ghoul fever due to the festering flesh in their teeth, but that's negotiable.


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## demiurge1138 (May 12, 2009)

No to ghoul fever, yes to weapons counting as the proper alignment.


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## freyar (May 12, 2009)

Fair enough.


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## Shade (May 12, 2009)

Agreed to aligned strike.

How's this?

Vulnerability to Turning (Ex?):  A spirit-ghoul victim may be turned as if it were an undead creature with +2 turn resistance.



> A spirit-ghoul is the end result of a human victim's possession by unknown demonic entities. Once so possessed, the victim becomes immune to sleep and charm spells, and has paralyzation powers like normal ghouls.




Give 'em just immunity to all mind-affecting spells and abilities, or all undead immunities?



> Such spirit-ghouls look just like normal ghouls, and the two can often be found together in a pack.




Organization:  Solitary, gang (1 plus 2–4 ghouls), or pack (1 plus 7–12 ghouls)?


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## freyar (May 12, 2009)

Vulnerability to turning looks right, though perhaps we could say that, rather than destroying a spirit-ghoul, a turning check that would destroy the spirit-ghoul instead ends the possession and returns the possessed creature to its natural state.  Or perhaps we should list this whereever we do the possession.  Or both. 

I'd say just mind-affecting and I guess sleep effects.  A lot of the undead immunities seem to come with having no Con, and I'd rather not include those.

Organization looks good.

Edit: rather than a boost to Wis and Cha, why doesn't a spirit-ghoul victim take the spirit-ghoul's mental stats?


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## Shade (May 13, 2009)

Great ideas all around.

Shall we work on the possession mechanic?  We discussed it a bit upthread, but never put it into an actual ability format.


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## freyar (May 13, 2009)

Sounds good.


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## Shade (May 13, 2009)

freyar said:


> Sounds right to me.  To simplify the possession, do you want to rip from ghost's malevolence or go look up whatever loumarae do?






Shade said:


> Loumara reference the Demonic Possession rules in FC1, which aren't OGL.  So the ghost route may be the way to go, with a sidebar mentioning they can be treated as loumara (and thus use those rules) if used with FC1.   Thoughts?






freyar said:


> From flipping through FC1, I noticed that the dybbuk (1 of only 2 loumara) don't really use the full possession rules.  They just take over a corpse.  So, to simulate the possession rules, let's steal from malevolence for the spirit-ghoul to become a "rider" and grant the victim a second save to resist transformation (successful save means immune to transformation for 24 hours).  So we'd essentially be writing a statblock for the incorporeal fiend and a small template for the transformed victim.
> 
> How's that work?





Here's malevolence...

Malevolence (Su):  Once per round, an ethereal ghost can merge its body with a creature on the Material Plane. This ability is similar to a magic jar spell (caster level 10th or the ghost’s Hit Dice, whichever is higher), except that it does not require a receptacle. To use this ability, the ghost must be manifested and it must try move into the target’s space; moving into the target’s space to use the malevolence ability does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The target can resist the attack with a successful Will save (DC 15 + ghost’s Cha modifier). A creature that successfully saves is immune to that same ghost’s malevolence for 24 hours, and the ghost cannot enter the target’s space. If the save fails, the ghost vanishes into the target’s body.


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## freyar (May 13, 2009)

Here's a draft.  Don't know if we should keep it as two abilities or merge them to one.

Possession (Su):  Once per round, a spirit-ghoul possess a creature by moving into that creature's space (this movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity).  The target can resist the attack with a successful Will save (DC X). A creature that successfully saves is immune to that same spirit-ghoul’s possession for 24 hours, and the spirit-ghoul cannot enter the target’s space. If the save fails, the spirit-ghoul vanishes into the target’s body.  While the spirit-ghoul does not control the target, it is aware of everything the target is.  X, X, X or similar magic ends the possession.

Fiendish Transformation (Su): After X rounds (?), the spirit-ghoul may attempt to transform any creature that it possesses.  The target must make a DC X Fortitude save or gain the spirit-ghoul victim template (see below).  If the save succeeds, the victim is immune to the spirit ghoul's fiendish transformation for 24 hours.  If the save fails, the spirit-ghoul takes control of the victim (as a magic jar spell, except that it does not require a receptacle).  Once the victim is transformed, only X, X, X or similar magic can end the possession and return the target to its previous state, as can a turning attempt that would destroy an undead of the spirit-ghoul victim's HD plus 2.


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## Shade (May 13, 2009)

Great start!

Should the fiend fail on its transformation check, does it remain in possession, or is it ejected from the creature's body (and space)?


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## freyar (May 13, 2009)

I had thought it would just stick around as a rider, but I don't mind having it booted out.  What do you think?


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## Shade (May 13, 2009)

I have no preference, just felt we needed to clarify.


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## freyar (May 13, 2009)

Let's let it stay:

Fiendish Transformation (Su): After X rounds (?), the spirit-ghoul may attempt to transform any creature that it possesses. The target must make a DC X Fortitude save or gain the spirit-ghoul victim template (see below). If the save succeeds, the victim is immune to the spirit ghoul's fiendish transformation for 24 hours, but the possession is not ended. If the save fails, the spirit-ghoul takes control of the victim (as a magic jar spell, except that it does not require a receptacle). Once the victim is transformed, only X, X, X or similar magic can end the possession and return the target to its previous state, as can a turning attempt that would destroy an undead of the spirit-ghoul victim's HD plus 2.

What kind of magic do you want to allow to end a possession and/or reverse the transformation?  I don't know about protection/magic circle spells -- the possession doesn't exert mental control (so I don't think protection from evil applies, for ex), and the transformation seems too strong to be ended by those, too.


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## Shade (May 14, 2009)

Protection/magic circle would prevent the initial possession, so theoretically that barrier has already been bypassed by the time it can attempt the transformation.  So, I'll agree with "no".

Danishment, dispel evil, dismissal, and holy word?


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## freyar (May 14, 2009)

Just for possession or for both?  Dispel evil is a 4th level spell -- could a 7th level cleric easily destroy a ghoul with a turning check?  Or advanced ghoul?


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## Shade (May 15, 2009)

A 7th-level cleric would automatically destroy any standard (or advanced to 3 HD) ghouls he/she turns.


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## freyar (May 15, 2009)

Then that's fine by me for both of them.


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## Shade (May 18, 2009)

So...

Fiendish Transformation (Su): After X rounds (?), the spirit-ghoul may attempt to transform any creature that it possesses. The target must make a DC X Fortitude save or gain the spirit-ghoul victim template (see below). If the save succeeds, the victim is immune to the spirit ghoul's fiendish transformation for 24 hours, but the possession is not ended. If the save fails, the spirit-ghoul takes control of the victim (as a magic jar spell, except that it does not require a receptacle). Once the victim is transformed, only banishment, dispel evil, dismissal, holy word, or similar magic can end the possession and return the target to its previous state, as can a turning attempt that would destroy an undead of the spirit-ghoul victim's HD plus 2.


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## freyar (May 18, 2009)

Looks good.  Maybe instead of X rounds, let's say 1 day before attempting the transformation.

Let's list those spells in the Possession entry, also.


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## Shade (May 19, 2009)

Updated.

Should the spirit-ghoul have an Attack: incorporeal touch attack?  If so, what should the damage be?   Maybe the equivalent of a ghoul touch spell?


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## freyar (May 20, 2009)

Maybe.  I'd lean towards just paralysis, or maybe ability damage (Dex?).  Ghoul touch is a fine option, though.


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## demiurge1138 (May 20, 2009)

The ghoul touch option sounds good.


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## Shade (May 20, 2009)

Updated.

Skills: 54
Hide, Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Spot?  What else?

Feats: 2
Ability Focus (fiendish transformation), Ability Focus (possession)?


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## freyar (May 21, 2009)

The feats sound fine. 

Knowledge (religion) (for the relation to undead), Intimidate?  If we change the victim template to use the spirit-ghoul's skills, that would make a few more important (like Move Silently, Climb, Jump, or Balance, like regular ghouls have).


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## Shade (May 26, 2009)

That sounds like a good idea, but I'd rather not give an incorporeal creature ranks in Move Silently.  How about it grants a +8 racial bonus on Move Silently checks to the possessed victim, in addition to sharing its skills?


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## freyar (May 26, 2009)

Sounds fine.  So for skills, maybe Balance, Climb, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Sense Motive, Spot?  Not sure here really.


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## Shade (May 26, 2009)

Yeah, this one's tricky.  An incorporeal creature wouldn't really have much use for Balance, Climb, or Jump either.   Maybe racial bonuses in all of those for the victim?

The loumarae have...

Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Disguise, Forgery, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (dungeoneering), Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (local), Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Tumble

So maybe...

Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Tumble?


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## freyar (May 26, 2009)

Sure, those sound ok.  Although Hide seems almost as weird as Move Silently for something that can just slide into another object.  How about just a +2 bonus on the ghoul skills?  Or no bonus, since this is probably not a big deal.


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## Shade (May 26, 2009)

Replace Hide with Bluff?


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## freyar (May 26, 2009)

Sure.  Maybe it can use Bluff checks to convince someone it's a regular ghoul!


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## Shade (May 26, 2009)

Updated.

So we're not giving racial bonuses to the ghoul skills to the victim?

Organization: Solitary?

Challenge Rating: 3?

Treasure: None (unless possessing a victim)?

Advancement: 6-12 HD (Medium)? (Most loumarae do not increase in size, but some exceed the usual double/triple base HD advancement)


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## freyar (May 27, 2009)

Your suggestions sound right.

As for skill bonuses to the victim, let's put in

Skills: A spirit-ghoul victim gains a +2 racial bonus to Balance, Climb, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, and Spot checks.  In addition, the spirit-ghoul victim may use the spirit-ghoul's skill ranks in place of its own for any skill check.  A spirit-ghoul victim otherwise retains its own skills and ranks.

That look ok?

Also, for abilities, I'd like to go with 

Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +2, Dex +4.  In addition, a spirit-ghoul victim uses the possessing spirit-ghoul's Int, Wis, and Cha.


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## Shade (May 27, 2009)

Updated.  What remains?


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## freyar (May 27, 2009)

It must be done!


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## Shade (Jul 13, 2009)

*BLACK ANNIS*
FREQUENCY: Unique
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVE: 15”
HIT DICE: 11
% IN LAIR: 50%
TREASURE TYPE: I,X
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spells
SPECIAL DEFENCES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 50%
INTELLIGENCE: Exceptional
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
SIZE: L (10' tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil

*HER CAT*
FREQUENCY: Unique
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVE: 18”
HIT DICE: 9
% IN LAIR: 50%
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-8/2-8/2-16
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENCES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 25%
INTELLIGENCE: Average
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
SIZE: L
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil

A monster related to ghouls is Black Annis. Her legend is part of the basis for the AD&D game monster annis (MM2). Black Annis is a man-eating hag with a blue face and iron claws. She is supposed to live in a cave in the Dane Hills in Leicestershire England.  There was a great oak at the mouth of the cave in which she was said to hide; she would leap out from behind the oak to catch and devour travelers. The cave, which was called Black Annis. Bower Close, was supposed to have been dug out of the rock by her own nails.

On Easter Monday, it was the custom from early times to hold a drag-hunt from Annis. Bower to the Mayor of Leicester.s house. A drag-hunt is an overland hunt in which the hounds follow the scent of a dead animal that has been dragged over the ground to make a trail. The bait dragged was a dead cat drenched in aniseed. The bait was symbolically important; aniseed is associated with the second part of Black Annis’s name. Black Annis was also associated with a monstrous cat, a kind of pet or familiar. The drag-hunt custom died out at the end of the 18th century.

Ruth Tongue, in her Forgotten Folk-Tales of the English Counties, reproduced a tale about Black Annis the hag, as told by an evacuee from Leicester in December 1941. The description seems to show that the tradition of Black Annis was still alive as late as World War II. The hag was said to be “ever so tall and had a blue face and had long white teeth”. The hag ate people and only went out when it was dark. When Black Annis ground her teeth, people could hear her in time to bolt their doors. They kept well away from the windows, too, in case she reached inside and grabbed for villagers (which was why Leicestershine’s cottages lacked a lot of big windows). When Black Annis howled, people could hear her five miles away. Even the poor folk who lived in huts fastened skins across the windows and put witch-herbs above them to keep Black Annis away.

Black Annis personifies the spirit of death and fears of the wilderness. It seems likely that she was once a goddess-figure that had to be ritually propitiated. Perhaps she was the dark side of Anu (Dana), a Celtic mother goddess. If so, it shows the staying power of memories of horror. The good aspects of the mother goddess (fertility, rebirth, and the cycle of the seasons) have been forgotten, and only the evil aspects remain.

Black Annis is a man-eating hag with a blue face and iron claws. Her cat is a giant cat, larger than a sabre-tooth tiger, having blue-black fur. While sunlight does neither Black Annis nor her cat any real harm, both of them prefer darkness and are normally encountered at night or in deep caverns.

Black Annis has the following spells: darkness 15. radius, detect magic, dispel magic, clairaudience, clairvoyance, dig, confusion, and animate dead. Her cat has three attacks (claw/claw/bite); Black Annis has only one, which could be either a physical attack or a spell. Black Annis is sometimes encountered alone, but her cat will be encountered only if the hag is also present.

Because of her close association with death, Black Annis could be considered an undead spirit seeking living victims. If so, she would be in the “special” category regarding turning. But Black Annis does not have to be a type of undead—she could merely be an evil spirit haunting the night. The final choice whether or not to make her undead is left strictly to the DM.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #138 (1988).


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## Shade (Jul 13, 2009)

Shall we just make her a unique 11-HD annis with a few additional abilities?

Also, a 3.5 smilodon happens to have exactly the same Hit Dice as her cat.


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## freyar (Jul 13, 2009)

Sounds good to me, and an intelligent smilodon would be a fun familiar!


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## Shade (Jul 13, 2009)

Here's a mockup.  I increased her mental scores a bit, since her Int is "Exceptional" (and thus 15-16).

*Black Annis*
Large Monstrous Humanoid
Hit Dice: 11d8+22 (71 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 20 (–1 size, +1 Dex, +10 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 19
Base Attack/Grapple: +11/+22
Attack: Claw +17 melee (1d6+7)
Full Attack: 2 claws +17 melee (1d6+7) and bite +12 melee (1d6+3)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab, rake 1d6+7, rend 2d6+10, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 2/bludgeoning, darkvision 60 ft., spell resistance CR+11
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +9
Abilities: Str 25, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 15, Cha 16
Skills: 5 at 14 ranks
Feats: Alertness, Blind-Fight, Great Fortitude, 1 more
Environment: Temperate hills?
Organization: Solitary or with Black Annis' Cat
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: x
Alignment: Neutral evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: —

_This creature looks like an ancient female human, but impossibly tall. It has deep blue skin and filthy black hair._

Flavor text..

Black Annis stands 10 feet all and weighs about x pounds.

Combat

Tactics.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, Black Annis must hit a Large or smaller opponent with a claw attack. She can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.

Rake (Ex): Attack bonus +17 melee, damage 1d6+7. Black Annis can attack a grappled foe with both claws at no penalty.

Rend (Ex): If Black Annis hits with both claw attacks, she latches onto the opponent’s body and tears the flesh. This attack automatically deals an extra 2d6+10 points of damage.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will—detect magic; 3/day—animate dead, clairaudience/clairvoyance, confusion, deeper darkness, disguise self, dispel magic, fog cloud;  1/day—move earth. Caster level 12th.


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## freyar (Jul 14, 2009)

Let's make her tomb-tainted, also.  Think she's boosted enough?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 14, 2009)

There's a line in the original that says that her one attack is either physical or "with a spell". Considering that she has no damage-dealing SLAs, I kind of want to give her an eldritch blast analogue. Ray of doom, anyone?

I agree that tomb-tainted is the way to go.


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## Shade (Jul 14, 2009)

Sounds good.

Added to Homebrews.

Wanna write up that "ray of doom"?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 14, 2009)

Ray of Doom (Sp): As a standard action, Black Annis may fire a ray of seething evil energy at an opponent within 60 feet. Creatures struck by this ray take 2d6 points of damage (and must make a DC X Fortitude save, Cha based, or be dazzled for 1 round?). 

and add "or ray of doom +11 ranged touch (2d6)" to her attack and full attack lines.


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## Shade (Jul 14, 2009)

Great!  I like the secondary effect, too.

Updated.

For her cat, shall we take the smilodon stats, convert to magical beast, and remove the augmented critical (since it doesn't seem to have saber teeth)?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 14, 2009)

I like the sound of the cat. Do smilodon have pounce/rake?

Edit: Since Black Annis is a unique, we should probably increase her Con to give her more staying power and bump her DR to at least 5. Perhaps 5/bludgeoning and good?

We should also come up with SLAs to give to a coven with Black Annis as its leader.


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## Shade (Jul 14, 2009)

Yes to pounce/rake.

DR 5/5/bludgeoning and good appeals.

The specialized coven is an interesting idea.


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## freyar (Jul 15, 2009)

This is looking good!  Note also that her cat should be more intelligent, perhaps like a familiar for some appropriate level Wiz/Sorc.

Bump Con to 18 or 20 ish?


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## Shade (Jul 15, 2009)

Updated with Con 20.   Increased Cat's Int and Cha to 10 and 12, respectively.

I was thinking of suggesting allowing Black Annis to have an empathic link with her cat, like a familiar, but then a more flavorful idea presented itself.  How about the cat either wears her _hag eye _on its collar, or even has it as a replacement for one of its own eyes?

Should the cat be tomb-tainted as well?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 15, 2009)

Agreed to tomb-tainted cat with a hag eye for an eye. Alternately, the eye can be removed from the cat and given to another spy.

If the cat's going to do a lot of spying, we could give it the quiescent SQ (from the gloom, makes it absolutely supernaturally silent and gives it a +20 bonus to Move Silently checks).


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## Shade (Jul 15, 2009)

Great suggestion!

This conversion is turning out far more interesting than I'd expected.


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## freyar (Jul 16, 2009)

Yeah, these suggestions are fun, agreed to them all!


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## Shade (Jul 16, 2009)

Updated.

Here are the usual spell-like abilities of a covey...

Spell-Like Abilities: 3/day—animate dead, bestow curse (DC 17), control weather, dream, forcecage, mind blank, mirage arcana (DC 18), veil (DC 19), vision. Caster level 9th. The save DCs are based on a Charisma score of 16. To use one of these abilities (which requires a full-round action), all three hags must be within 10 feet of one another, and all must participate.

How shall we modify it for Black Annis' "super covey"?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 17, 2009)

Most of those we should keep. Switch animate dead for create undead, give them bolts of bedevilment and earthquake, perhaps?


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## freyar (Jul 17, 2009)

Those sound good, and circle of death appeals to me also.


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## Shade (Jul 17, 2009)

Sounds good.

Updated.

Skills: 5 at 14 ranks
Standard annis has Bluff, Hide, Listen, Spot

Feats: Alertness, Blind-Fight, Great Fortitude, 1 more
The listed feat are those of a standard annis.  We can swap those out if we'd like.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 17, 2009)

Bluff, Hide, Listen, Spot, Concentration?

Of the feats, we should keep Blind-fight and Great Fortitude. The other two should be... Improved Initiative and Multiattack?

Also, the description of the hag eye in her Cat makes reference to multiple covey members. Since she can make one without a covey, just have its destruction deal damage to and blind Black Annis.


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## Shade (Jul 17, 2009)

Sounds good.

Updated.

For her cat...

Skills: 12 ranks
Smilodon has Listen and Spot

Feats: 4
Smilodon has Alertness, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 18, 2009)

Pull some ranks out for Hide and give it a racial bonus. Stealthy cat is stealthy, after all. Remember its bonuses for being quiescent.

Feats look good for the most part--let's drop Alertness for Multiattack.


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## Cleon (Jul 20, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Ray of Doom (Sp): As a standard action, Black Annis may fire a ray of seething evil energy at an opponent within 60 feet. Creatures struck by this ray take 2d6 points of damage (and must make a DC X Fortitude save, Cha based, or be dazzled for 1 round?).
> 
> and add "or ray of doom +11 ranged touch (2d6)" to her attack and full attack lines.




Isn't the damage a bit wimpy for a creature of her power? A warlock of comparable hit dice would be doing, what, 5d6 ranged touch with their eldritch blasts.

Why not give the old girl a bit more bite and up Ray o' Doom's damage a few dice.


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## freyar (Jul 20, 2009)

I'll note under tomb-tainted that the cat is a magical beast, not monstrous humanoid.

I'm a bit torn on upping the ray of doom damage that much.  5d6 might be too good for her to do anything else.  Other thoughts?


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## Cleon (Jul 20, 2009)

freyar said:


> I'm a bit torn on upping the ray of doom damage that much.  5d6 might be too good for her to do anything else.  Other thoughts?




Well the 5d6* was just for comparison purposes, I'd be fine with 3d6, the same average damage as one of her claws, or 4d6. 2d6 just seems too feeble. 

(*Come to think of it, doesn't an 11th level Warlock shoot 6d6 eldritch blasts? They do 1d6 at 1st level plus 1d6/two levels, if my memory serves me right.)


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 21, 2009)

The rationale behind the 2d6 was because the original did 2-12 damage with either a claw or a "magical attack". I'd rather keep the damage low, but perhaps increase the rider effect to sickened or shaken.

Consider, Cleon, that an 11th level warlock won't have that good of DR, that many hit points or that powerful of a melee attack. The ray of doom isn't her primary attack or defining feature--it's just an option.


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## freyar (Jul 21, 2009)

How about we compromise and go with 2d6+Cha?


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> The rationale behind the 2d6 was because the original did 2-12 damage with either a claw or a "magical attack". I'd rather keep the damage low, but perhaps increase the rider effect to sickened or shaken.
> 
> Consider, Cleon, that an 11th level warlock won't have that good of DR, that many hit points or that powerful of a melee attack. The ray of doom isn't her primary attack or defining feature--it's just an option.




I agree.  We don't want it to become her primary attack mode.  When touch attacks become an option, they'll always be chosen in favor of regular attacks if the damage is close.

I'm OK with increasing the effect to sickened, though.



freyar said:


> How about we compromise and go with 2d6+Cha?




I'd rather not break the warlock standard here, but what if we allowed her to cast a "super blast" three times per day at a higher damage threshold as a compromise?


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## Cleon (Jul 21, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> The rationale behind the 2d6 was because the original did 2-12 damage with either a claw or a "magical attack". I'd rather keep the damage low, but perhaps increase the rider effect to sickened or shaken.




That 2-12 claw attack is a little odd, come to think of it, since a regular 1E/2E Annis has claws that do 9-16. I wonder why Moldvay cut it down?



Shade said:


> I agree.  We don't want it to become her primary attack mode.  When touch attacks become an option, they'll always be chosen in favor of regular attacks if the damage is close.
> 
> I'm OK with increasing the effect to sickened, though.
> 
> I'd rather not break the warlock standard here, but what if we allowed her to cast a "super blast" three times per day at a higher damage threshold as a compromise?




Don't much like the idea of a limited use "super blast", since she may well never use more than three in a typical fight I suspect the 3/day will not be a practical limitation.

Upon reflection, I'd rather not give her a Ray o' Doom attack at all, since the original legendary monster does not have such a power.


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2009)

Cleon said:


> That 2-12 claw attack is a little odd, come to think of it, since a regular 1E/2E Annis has claws that do 9-16. I wonder why Moldvay cut it down?




I'm guessing just to simplify the attack line, but only Moldvay knows for sure.



Cleon said:


> Don't much like the idea of a limited use "super blast", since she may well never use more than three in a typical fight I suspect the 3/day will not be a practical limitation.




Perhaps not, although the same could be said for any creature with Empower SLA and similar feats/powers.



Cleon said:


> Upon reflection, I'd rather not give her a Ray o' Doom attack at all, since the original legendary monster does not have such a power.




It's not too much of a stretch, though, since the original had that vague "spells" damage.   I think it adds some nice flavor, and helps differentiate her further from a standard annis.   So my vote is "keep", but I'll bow to the majority if the support isn't there.


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## Cleon (Jul 21, 2009)

Shade said:


> It's not too much of a stretch, though, since the original had that vague "spells" damage.   I think it adds some nice flavor, and helps differentiate her further from a standard annis.   So my vote is "keep", but I'll bow to the majority if the support isn't there.




What vague "spells" damage? The only spells I'm seeing with any offensive capacity in the original are _confusion _and _animate dead_, neither of which cause damage directly. Although obviously she can create zombies and skeletons to sic on her foes to injure them.


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2009)

> NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
> DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-12






> Her cat has three attacks (claw/claw/bite); Black Annis has only one, which could be either a physical attack or a spell.




It's vague, but definitely hints at the possibility.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 21, 2009)

Keep ray of doom, keep it at 2d6 plus sickened.


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## freyar (Jul 21, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Keep ray of doom, keep it at 2d6 plus sickened.



That would be my vote, as well.  Probably the original description was just sloppy language, but there's enough wiggle room to give her a little help.  She's just not quite strong or interesting enough otherwise as a unique monster, I think.


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2009)

Updated.

Environment: Temperate hills?

Organization: Solitary (with Black Annis' Cat) or covey (Black Annis and her cat plus 2 hags of any kind plus 1–8 ogres and 1–4 evil giants)?

Challenge Rating: x (A normal annis is CR 6; HD advancement alone should bring her to 7)

Treasure: x  (A normal annis has standard)


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## Cleon (Jul 21, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Environment: Temperate hills?
> 
> ...




Your suggested Environment and Organization look good to me.

I'd think Challenge Rating at least 8. She's got a couple of effective 3/day SLA's (_confusion _and _dispel magic_) plus spell resistance, and her cat's presumably included in her CR.

As for treasure, I'd leave it at standard. If I remember my AD&D treasure tables, the original's type I, X is nothing special.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 22, 2009)

The cat shouldn't be included in her CR. But if the cat's CR is 6, it'll make for a nice little EL 9 encounter with her and her cat if she's CR 8.


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## freyar (Jul 22, 2009)

CR 8 is probably reasonable.  I guess we shouldn't treat the cat as a familiar, so it should have a separate CR.

The rest of the suggestions seem right.


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## Cleon (Jul 22, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> The cat shouldn't be included in her CR. But if the cat's CR is 6, it'll make for a nice little EL 9 encounter with her and her cat if she's CR 8.




Well I thought that since the Organizations of both imply they're always together, their CR would take that into account. Maybe add a note that she's normally an EL9 because her cat's with her?


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## freyar (Jul 22, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Well I thought that since the Organizations of both imply they're always together, their CR would take that into account. Maybe add a note that she's normally an EL9 because her cat's with her?



I feel like this is semantics, but Black Annis would be CR 8, but the encounter of them both would be EL 9.  But that might be a helpful reminder for DMs.  Of course, a wizard's familiar has no CR but is folded into the wizard's CR.  That makes things nice and confusing here.


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## Shade (Jul 22, 2009)

Updated.

Black Annis stands 10 feet all and weighs about x pounds.  (An annis stands some 8 feet all and weighs about 325 pounds.)


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## Cleon (Jul 22, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Black Annis stands 10 feet all and weighs about x pounds.  (An annis stands some 8 feet all and weighs about 325 pounds.)




Well if her proportions are identical to a regular Annis she works out around 640 pounds. However, Black Annis is no stronger than a regular Annis, which suggests she's either rather flabby compared to a regular annis or extremely gaunt. The latter seems appropriate considering her tomb-tainted quality, so I'm tempted to cut her weight to 500-575 pounds (equivalent to 100-120 lbs if she were 6' tall).

Either works OK for me, but somewhere in the 500-650 pounds range looks about right.


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## freyar (Jul 22, 2009)

550 lb?  Or 600 lb if we don't want her quite so emaciated.  And then I think she's done.


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## Shade (Jul 22, 2009)

Let's split the difference and go with 575.


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## Cleon (Jul 22, 2009)

Shade said:


> Let's split the difference and go with 575.




575 is fine by me, look like the old girl's finished then.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 23, 2009)

Yeah, I think so too.


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## Shade (Sep 10, 2009)

In Greek legends, the gelloudes are a kind of female demon that steals and then devours young children. The prototype for the gelloudes was the maiden Gello whose ghost, according to the ancient poetess Sappho, returned after her untimely death and was said by the people of the isle of Lesbos to have caused the early deaths of children. By the 10th century A.D., Gello had become a demon of the Greek Orthodox Church. Her various minions were the gelloudes.

Just as a ghoul is the personification of the wilderness and the fear of cannibalism, the gelloudes are the personification of the fear of infant mortality. In cultures without modern medical techniques, infant mortality can result in a 20% death rate. With one out of five children being born dead or dying soon after birth, it is not surprising that the cause was attributed to demons.

In Greek folklore, gelloudes have 12½ secret names. The names (transliterated from the Greek) are: 1) Guloy - a form of Gello; 2) Mora - a kind of lamia; 3) Budzoy - a sucker of blood; 4) Marmaroy – “heart of stone”; 5) Petasis – “fly like a bird”; 6) Pelagia – “.swim like a fish”.; 7) Bordona – “swoop like a hawk”; 8) Apletoy – “insatiable”; 9) Khamodrakaina – “lurk like a snake”; 10) Anabardalaia – “soar like a hawk”; 11) Psychanaspastria – “snatcher of souls”; 12) Paidopniktria – “strangler of children”; and 12½) Strigla – a kind of stirge.

Gelloudes are related to lamias, stirges, type V demons, and succubi (all from MM1). While their prime purpose is to prey upon children, they are not limited to that function and are likely to attack anyone when the man-eating urge becomes too great.

*GELLOUDES*
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-6
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVE: 6./18.//12"
HIT DICE: 5
% IN LAIR: 5%
TREASURE TYPE: 1
NO. OF ATTACKS: 4
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4/1-4/1-6/1-6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Energy drain
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 50%
INTELLIGENCE: Average
ALIGNMENT. Chaotic evil
SIZE: L (7. tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: 100
Attack/Defense Modes: E/F/G

A gelloudes is a kind of demon, with the lower body of a giant serpent and the upper body of a woman. The serpent body has a pair of scaley legs with webbed talons. The woman.s hands end in claws; she has vampirelike canines. A gelloudes has dragonlike wings that aid both flying and swimming.

Gelloudes attack with hand claws (1-6 hp damage each) and foot talons (1-8 hp damage each). If any attack succeeds, the victim is pulled close to the demon but is not held. On the next round, if it gains the initiative, the gelloudes can bite its victim (roll to hit at +2) and drain an energy level every round thereafter unless the victim breaks free of its bite, requiring an open doors strength roll. If the roll is not made, the victim can be struck on following rounds at +2 to hit with claws and talons (and automatically by the bite) until he breaks free. The victim gains no saving throw against the energy drain. As the victim loses energy levels, he seems to grow younger. When the victim has no levels or hit dice left, he dies. This reverse aging is something of an illusion and is not necessarily permanent. If the victim dies from the attack, then the corpse will be that of a young child. If the victim can be freed before death from energy draining, he will immediately return to his normal age (the life-level loss is permanent).

As minor demons, the gelloudes rank in the “special” category when being turned by clerics.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #138 (1988).


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## Shade (Sep 10, 2009)

Actual demon, magical beast like a lamia, on monstrous humanoid like a lamia noble?

Regardless of the type, it should be very easy to tie them to Graz'zt.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 11, 2009)

I say magical beast (extraplanar).


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## freyar (Sep 11, 2009)

I'm slightly in the monstrous humanoid camp, but I prefer that or magical beast to outsider.  Extraplanar is fine, though.


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## Shade (Sep 11, 2009)

They are similar in size and shape to a lamia noble, which has the following ability scores:

Str 21, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 18

These have average Int, so maybe drop Int to 10 and Cha to 16?


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## freyar (Sep 11, 2009)

These are lower HD than the lamia noble, I think, so maybe also drop Str a little.  Maybe to 17?


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## Shade (Sep 11, 2009)

Sure, that sounds reasonable.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 11, 2009)

Stats sound pretty good to me, but I'd rather split the difference stat-wise to 19. These guys are more melee oriented than lamias, after all.


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## freyar (Sep 11, 2009)

Str 19 is ok by me.


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## Shade (Sep 11, 2009)

Ditto here.

I'll start a Homebrews the next time I drop in.

Have a good weekend!


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## Shade (Sep 14, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.



> Gelloudes attack with hand claws (1-6 hp damage each) and foot talons (1-8 hp damage each). If any attack succeeds, the victim is pulled close to the demon but is not held. On the next round, if it gains the initiative, the gelloudes can bite its victim (roll to hit at +2) and drain an energy level every round thereafter unless the victim breaks free of its bite, requiring an open doors strength roll. If the roll is not made, the victim can be struck on following rounds at +2 to hit with claws and talons (and automatically by the bite) until he breaks free.




So, stick with just two claws and bite for normal attacks, give 'em improved grab, rake, and maul (the auto hit with bite when both claws hit)?

Energy drain with each bite attack isn't out of the question at this HD/probable CR range (see vampire spawn).



> The victim gains no saving throw against the energy drain. As the victim loses energy levels, he seems to grow younger. When the victim has no levels or hit dice left, he dies. This reverse aging is something of an illusion and is not necessarily permanent. If the victim dies from the attack, then the corpse will be that of a young child. If the victim can be freed before death from energy draining, he will immediately return to his normal age (the life-level loss is permanent).




So actual aging, or illusion?



> As minor demons, the gelloudes rank in the “special” category when being turned by clerics.




Tomb-tainted, or simply "vulnerable to turning"?

Also, some inspiration stuff here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gello


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 14, 2009)

Both tomb tainted and vulnerable to turning. It sounds like they can't bite if there's no grapple--which I'm okay with. They get two claws and improved grab, then rake and maul and energy drain? Which is very, very nasty to the one poor bastard who gets grappled.

I think the de-aging thing is an illusion.


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## freyar (Sep 14, 2009)

I'd agree with demiurge on all counts here.


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## Shade (Sep 14, 2009)

[url="http://www.enworld.org/forum/4932847-post749.html']Updated.[/url]

Does that cover what was discussed sufficiently?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 15, 2009)

It would possibly if the link worked.


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2009)

Oops!  Try this one.


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## freyar (Sep 15, 2009)

Aren't we calling bite during Imp Grab something like Chew or Gnaw?  But otherwise, I think it does.

Should the illusion bit be an ability or flavor?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 15, 2009)

The illusion bit should be flavor, I think. Also, the improved grab is currently keyed to the bite, not to the claws.


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2009)

Ok, fixed improved grab.

I borrowed the maul from the mara and tener, so we've used that terminology at least twice.  

Updated.

Do we want to do anything with the infant mortality/infertility bits from mythology?   Maybe a variant curse?


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## freyar (Sep 16, 2009)

Maul is like rend, and I think you have that right.  I was talking about "bite." 

I'm thinking flavor that they like to eat kids.  Maybe the illusion bit helps entice them to eat older victims as well.   But I'd like to do an ability for the 12 1/2 names, maybe something to foil divinations?


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## Shade (Sep 17, 2009)

Yeah, you're right...

Gnaw (Ex): An agriotherium that hits with both claw attacks may make an immediate free bite attack. Additionally, it deals automatic bite damage every round it maintains a grapple.


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## freyar (Sep 17, 2009)

Any thoughts about the names?


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## Shade (Sep 17, 2009)

I like your idea about foiling divinations (and probably truenames if using any rules that require that).

Back to gnaw for a second...the reason I went with "bite" rather than "gnaw", is because it doesn't have a bite attack listed anywhere else.  I borrowed it from the wyste.


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## freyar (Sep 17, 2009)

Ahhh.  Ok, that works for me.  The problem is that there are too many variations of the same mechanic in 3.X.  I like that Pathfinder uses rend for any attack, for example.

Definitely agreed on the truenames.


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## Shade (Sep 17, 2009)

Here's a stab at it...

12 and a half Names (Ex?):  Each gelloudes possesses twelve and 1/2 secret names.  As a result, any divination magic that requires knowledge of the target's name will fail, as will any spells or abilities that require knowledge of a creature's truename.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 17, 2009)

That strikes me as an Su ability. For one thing, it blocks supernatural effects. For another, how exactly do you explain that half a name?


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## Shade (Sep 18, 2009)

Good point!

Updated.

Suggested natural armor bonus?   Lamia's have +7.

Skills: 16

Feats: 2


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## freyar (Sep 18, 2009)

+5 natural?

The stealing and devouring children makes me think Hide and Move Silently would be good skill choices.

Stealthy and Weapon Focus?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 18, 2009)

freyar's suggestions all ring true to me.


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## Shade (Sep 18, 2009)

Updated.

Flight manueverability?

Challenge Rating: 4?

Treasure: Standard?

Advancement: 6-13 HD (Large); 14-15 HD (Huge)?  This follows the lamia's size progression.

A gelloudes is 7 feet tall and weighs x pounds. 

Gelloudes speak Abyssal and Common?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 19, 2009)

Average manueverability. I'm on the fence between 4 and 5. They can destroy the day of a single target, but don't have much ability to affect multiple targets.


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## freyar (Sep 19, 2009)

Let's go with CR 4.  I see these as kind of heavy but not overly so, so maybe 250-300 lb.  The rest sounds good.

For the 12-1/2 names listed in the flavor, let's say those are the secret names of the first gelloudes.


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## Cleon (Sep 20, 2009)

freyar said:


> Let's go with CR 4.  I see these as kind of heavy but not overly so, so maybe 250-300 lb.  The rest sounds good.
> 
> For the 12-1/2 names listed in the flavor, let's say those are the secret names of the first gelloudes.




Sorry for being late to the party, looks like I've missed out on most of the Gelloudes fun.

I'd have given them foreclaws and hind talons as a full attack myself, like a _Deinonychus_ without a bite.

They probably speak Common, so they can lure the innocent and foolish into their devouring clutches.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 20, 2009)

Languages sound good. The text on the original only has them making attacks with the foreclaws outside of a grapple, and I like it that way.


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## Cleon (Sep 21, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Languages sound good. The text on the original only has them making attacks with the foreclaws outside of a grapple, and I like it that way.




Eh? How do you get that.

The original text says "Gelloudes attack with hand claws (1-6 hp damage each) *and* foot talons (1-8 hp damage each)" and has "NO. OF ATTACKS: 4". To me, that clearly says the AD&D version has both two foreclaw attacks and two rear-talon attacks in a round.

There's obviously a conflict in the DAMAGE/ATTACK entry though, which appears to say its claws do 1d4 and talons 1d6, while the body text says 1d6 and 1d8.


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## Shade (Sep 21, 2009)

I think the rake mechanic is a better fit here.  1e didn't really have such a mechanic, so had to list out all the attacks on the line.

Updated.

Do we want to increase the damage to 1d6/1d8?

Organization: Solitary, pair, or x (3–6).   x="gang" like lamias?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 21, 2009)

Increasing the damage is fine by me.


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## Shade (Sep 21, 2009)

Updated.

Finished?


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## freyar (Sep 21, 2009)

Wow, nasty in a grapple, but I have to agree with that.  Increased damage is ok here, too.


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## Cleon (Sep 22, 2009)

Shade said:


> I think the rake mechanic is a better fit here.  1e didn't really have such a mechanic, so had to list out all the attacks on the line.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> ...




Actually, 1st edition AD&D did have something like 3.X edition's rake, e.g. the bonus rear claw attacks big cats got if they hit with both front paws, or the 'hug' that bears did if they did the same. Indeed, I suspect it was those attacks that inspired the 3E special attacks.

Increasing the claw damage is a good idea.

Anyhow, the girl's looking pretty close to being complete. I like the idea of a lamia-like gang - maybe one made up of mixed types of female supernatural monsters. I have a horrible temptation to call it a "sorority".


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## Shade (Sep 22, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Anyhow, the girl's looking pretty close to being complete. I like the idea of a lamia-like gang - maybe one made up of mixed types of female supernatural monsters. I have a horrible temptation to call it a "sorority".






I like the idea of a mixed gang of lamias, lamia nobles, and harpies, all in the name of Graz'zt.  

Updated.


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## freyar (Sep 22, 2009)

Scary.  Calling that group a sorority would remind me of the mobs at the frozen yogurt counter at my college. 

Looks done!


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## Shade (Sep 22, 2009)

Greek mythology is not the only traditional source for a horde of ghosts cursed to eternal wandering. Gaelic (Scottish Highlands) mythology has tales of the sluagh (pronounced "slooa"), who are known as "the host of the unforgiven dead" or, more simply "the host". Descriptions of the sluagh vary, but most correspond closely to that given by Alexander Carmichael in the Carmina Gadelica (volume II, page 357). He noted that the .hosts. are the spirits of dead mortals. One informant told Carmichal that these spirits fly about in great clouds like starlings and return to the scenes of their earthly transgressions. On bad nights, say others, the hosts shelter themselves under russet docken stems and yellow ragwort stalks (two types of plants found in the Highlands). They fight aerial battles as men do on the earth, and may be heard and seen on  lear frosty nights, advancing and retreating. After a battle, their crimson blood may be seen upon the rocks and stones. These spirits use poisonous darts to kill cats, dogs, sheep, and cattle. They can command men to follow them, and men obey, having no alternative. Such human victims slay and maim at the bidding of their spirit-masters, who in return treat them badly and without pity.

The picture of the sluagh that emerges is certainly full of horror. On a chill frosty night, one might see the host advance in the bright moonlight. Like fast-moving, low-lying storm clouds, boiling with iridescent blues and greens and reds as if the aurora borealis was trapped within, the host would wash across the night sky. Sometimes the rolling clouds would clash together and, when they did, bloody crimson rain would fall to stain the earth. As the sluagh got closer, it could be seen that the .clouds. were actually masses of malignant bird-sized spirits. Each creature would look much like the negative photographic image of a sprite, with a dark shadowy body and iridescent wings. Each would be armed with a tiny bow with an equally tiny broad sword strapped to its waist. Trapped deep within the cloudlike host would be numerous zombies, magically born aloft and forced to obey every whim of the sluagh host.

*Sluagh*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Cold or temperate/mountainous
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Large roving bands
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Nocturnal
DIET: Living beings
INTELLIGENCE: Average
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
NO. APPEARING: 10-100 in wilderness
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 3, F1 24 (B)
HIT DICE: 2
THAC0: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spell-casting, poisoned missiles
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Control of zombies
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Special
SIZE: S (2’ tall)
MORALE: Fearless (20)
XP VALUE: 975

The sluagh (also known as “the host”) are undead spirits who roam the night in packs, warring with each other and preying on the living. A member of the sluagh looks much like a black sprite, with a dark shadowy body and gauzy iridescent wings. Seen at a distance at twilight, a group of sluagh looks like a roiling thundercloud. 

Combat: The sluagh fire tiny bows with poisonous arrows, having a maximum range of 75 yards. A victim hit by an arrow must save vs. poison or die in 2-5 rounds (unless the poison is slowed or neutralized). The save need be made but once only; any character who survives such a poison attack is thereafter immune to sluagh poison. The sluagh can also fight with tiny swords that do damage equal to daggers.

The sluagh can cast the spells animate dead and fly, one spell per round, as often as they wish. Any character slain by the sluagh is turned into a zombie and is then taken along when the sluagh fly away. The sluagh are usually accompanied by 3-24 zombies already under their control. The sluagh need not make normal morale checks. At the DM’s discretion, any time the sluagh turn a victim into a zombie they may choose to fly away. 

The sluagh exist in a state of barely controlled rage. When not tormenting the living, they are likely to fight among themselves. Tales are told of great aerial battles fought between divisions of the sluagh host. Characters can often turn this animosity to their advantage, as large numbers of the sluagh are easily tricked into fighting each other and leaving the characters alone. 

The sluagh are not affected by sleep, charm, hold; or cold-based spells, nor by poison or paralyzation. They take 2-8 hp each per vial of holy water and are destroyed by raise dead or resurrection spells. A cleric has the same chance to turn the sluagh as he has to turn ghouls. In the same round, allow the cleric a chance to turn the zombie accompanying the sluagh.

Habitat/Society: Sluagh always travel in large war bands, being the undead forms of warlike elves who turned on their fellow elves and were slain in battle. They appear only in the wilderness, never in dungeon settings. The sluagh never appear during the day and always flee sunlight. Their preferred habitat is any terrain similar to the Scottish Highlands.

The sluagh are sometimes led by other types of undead. For every 20 sluagh there is one wraith lieutenant. For every 40 sluagh there is an additional vampire captain. If 80 or more sluagh are encountered, their commander will be a lich. Note that special undead leaders make an encounter with the sluagh more deadly and should be used only if the characters are of an appropriately high level (with at least some chance of a cleric of their level turning the leader).

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #162 (1990).


*Sluagh*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Cerilia, near populated areas
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Host
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Nocturnal, near midnight
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Very (11–12)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING: 1–20
ARMOR CLASS: 0
MOVEMENT: Fl 24 (B)
HIT DICE: 8
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d6/1d6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Domination, poison
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Range
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (10' tall
MORALE: Elite (13–14)
BLOODLINE: None
BLOOD ABILITIES: None
PERCEPTION/SEEMING: None/None
XP VALUE: 4,000

The Sluagh (SLOO-ah), or the Host of the Unforgiven Dead, are the spirits of Cerilians who have died with unspeakable crimes on their consciences. Rejected in the afterlife by their gods for their transgressions, the Sluagh become trapped on Aebrynis.

Physical Description
The Sluagh appear as vaporous apparitions. Their heads and upper bodies, though composed of gray mist, retain a human shape—indeed, their facial features might be faintly recognizable to those who knew them well. Their expressions still hold the malice and cruelty they did in life. Below the waist, the figures taper off into foggy tendrils.

Role in the Campaign
Were the spirits that comprise the Sluagh capable of remorse, they would not be sentenced to such a lousy way to spend eternity. The gods, after all, were once themselves mortal—they understand mortal weakness, and they understand forgiveness. But when death is the only reason an evil person stopped committing heinous acts, the gods feel quite justified in withholding the compassion the deceased never showed.

The unforgiven dead are sentenced to walk the earth until they have made up for their crimes. Unfortunately, those who make up the Host just never get it. They find fault with the gods for rejecting them instead of looking inward with a critical eye. They use their extended time on Ceriliaas an opportunity to continue the plots and vendettas they began while alive. And they enslave the living into abetting their causes.

Habitat/Society
The Sluagh live in the great gray clouds that drift across Cerilia’s night skies. From there, they launch their attacks on the living. The newly dead tend to focus their ire on enemies they had as mortals — particularly if their deaths occurred at the hands of such enemies. As time passes, however, this focused hatred expands to encompass all the living, from powerful kings to simple farmers to dumb animals.  Those caught outdoors at midnight, be they men or beasts, risk dropping dead—the victim of an invisible dart. When someone dies unexpectedly, f rom no apparent cause, the victim is said to have caught the eye of the Host.

Ecology
The Sluagh not only interfere in the affairs of the living, but also fight among  themselves. Folk wisdom says that particularly violent storms indicate mighty clashes going on between factions of the Sluagh. Occasionally, the morning after such an event, their blood stains rocks and stones. The phenomenon is called shegh nan sluagh,or “blood of the Host.”

Combat and Other Encounters
Though the Host of the Unforgiven Dead can be deadly in missile combat, they prove even more sinister in personal encounters. 

Combat
Typically, the only sign of an impending Sluagh attack are gathering cumulonimbus clouds with high vertical development. The Host can easily hide themselves in these clouds to gain surprise.

The Sluagh attack from the sky, hurling their invisible darts at those below. Each dart inflicts 1d6 points of damage. Two to three minutes after being hit, victims feel a burning poison (class B) enter their veins and must attempt a saving throw vs. poison for each hit. Failure means they suffer an additional 20 points of damage from the poison; success reduces the damage to 1d3 points.

Because the Sluagh attack from such a distance (clouds tend to be at least half a mile—880 yards—in elevation), they are out of range for nonmagical weapons and many offensive spells. Dungeon Masters may allow characters to use battle spells (as described in The Book of Magecraft and The Book of Priestcra)ft during combat with the Host.

Peaceful Encounters
By far the most insidious encounters with the Sluagh come when they attempt to dominate (per the domination spell) a character’s will. Driven by vengeance, a member of the Host sometimes descends from the clouds to speak to its victim. The malevolent being addresses the character in hypnotic, soothing tones to lower the victim’s guard, then subjugates his or her will. The master then uses the character to carry out acts of vengeance against its old enemies. Should the victim avoid being killed by those enemies for his or her actions, and live long enough for the effects of the dominationto wear off, the character must succeed at a system shock roll or die.

Perception and/or Seeming
The Host of the Unforgiven Dead is a threat native to Cerilia, and therefore has no Seeming score. Even if members of the Sluagh adventured in the Shadow World while alive, upon death they lose any perception score they attained.

Originally appeared in Blood Spawn (2002).

Sluagh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## freyar (Sep 22, 2009)

I guess these are stats for the individual monsters.  The description of a cloud of them, though, reminds me in some ways of the danse macabre from Paizo's Skeletons of Scarwall (Pathfinder #11, I think).  There's also a big difference in HD in the Moldvay and Birthright versions.  I'm kind of a mind to do an individual at 2HD or so and a "cloud" of them as something like a mob or swarm.  What do you think?

Also, they read like they're incorporeal, but they have material attacks.  What do we want to do about that?


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## Shade (Sep 22, 2009)

I see a couple of options, including the "phantom strike" ability of the phantom (and similar "ghost touch" attacks of other creatures), or we can go with the gaseous quality of some creatures, where they are corporeal but are essentially in gaseous form.

I really like the idea of these things as a swarm that drops zombies.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 22, 2009)

I really like them as a swarm too.


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## Cleon (Sep 23, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I really like them as a swarm too.




I was thinking swarm of grave-touched Fey myself. We can always stat up an individual as well.


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## Cleon (Sep 23, 2009)

So, let's start with the basics - size and type.

Fey or Undead? Do we want Incorporeal?

Tiny or Small?

I fancy Tiny Fey, from the description of them as being the size of birds and the mention of their "tiny weapons". It also lets us make a Swarm of them, while they'd have to be a Mob if they were Small.

I'm thinking a Grig would be a good basis for statting an individual, and would vote against the Incorporeal subtype - although I could be persuaded to give them _gaseous form_ as an at-will supernatural ability.


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2009)

I thought fey at first, too, but I feel the evidence, both from the D&D source and original mythology, more strongly supports undead.

I'll bow to the majority, though.

I could see Tiny or Small.  I think Tiny makes for a better swarm, though.


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## Cleon (Sep 23, 2009)

Shade said:


> I thought fey at first, too, but I feel the evidence, both from the D&D source and original mythology, more strongly supports undead.
> 
> I'll bow to the majority, though.
> 
> I could see Tiny or Small.  I think Tiny makes for a better swarm, though.




Yes, I am divided on the Fey/Undead question since they're they're basically undead fey. Undead is probably a little closer to what's described, so I'm fine with that.

I do prefer Tiny though.

Celtic mythology can get rather confused as to the nature of some of these creatures, some switch between nature spirits, ancestral ghosts, corporeal foreigners, otherworldly sprites or hellish demons depending on who (and when) you ask.

So, an 8 hit dice swarm of Tiny Undead?


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2009)

That sounds about right, and I think the grig stats you mentioned upthread are a good fit:  Str 5, Dex 18, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 14.


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## Cleon (Sep 23, 2009)

Shade said:


> That sounds about right, and I think the grig stats you mentioned upthread are a good fit:  Str 5, Dex 18, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 14.




That suits me, we'll have to zero the Con stat of course, it being an Undead.

We can modify the Grig's longsword & longbow attacks for the individual version. Not sure how we'll represent a swarm of little undead fey all shooting away with their little longbows, though.

I'm thinking we should aim for the high AC of the Cerilian version.  An AD&D AC 0 is around AC20 in 3rd edition terms.

Size +2, Dex +4 leaves it 4 points short - shall we give them natural armour or wee little chainshirts, or a combination of natural and artificial armour?

I remember reading a folktale about clouds of limedust and splinters raining down from the sky from their shields during one of their perpetual wars, so how about Large wooden shields and the same +2 NA as a Grig?

Armour Class: 20 (+2 size, +4 Dex, +2 natural, +2 shield), touch 16, flat 20

It's got some pretty nasty special abilities.

Magical Flight (which it can impart to its zombies)

Create Spawn (slain Humanoids become zombies, do slain Fey become more Sluagh?)

Elfshot (deadly poison arrows)

Domination

I'm also thinking DR/cold iron and turn resistance would be appropriate.

Should it have low-light vision as well as darkvision?


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## freyar (Sep 23, 2009)

Tiny undead swarm sounds good to me.  I kind of like some sort of incorporeal ranged touch or ghost touch arrows, but I think the ranged attack may actually make more sense as an area effect (due to the large number of arrows).  In any case, I guess you can tell I'm thinking incorporeal for these.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 23, 2009)

Tiny incorporeal undead. I too like the arrows as an area of effect thing, either a cone or a burst emanating from the swarm.


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2009)

It sounds like we have a plan, then.  I'll start 'em up in Homebrews.


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Sep 24, 2009)

Let's make that area effect a cone, maybe 60 ft.

Swarm damage could be justified by the tiny swords n the first description (almost makes me wonder if we should do a different Birthright version).  Maybe incorporeal touch for regular hp damage?  Or negative energy damage?


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## Cleon (Sep 24, 2009)

freyar said:


> Tiny undead swarm sounds good to me.  I kind of like some sort of incorporeal ranged touch or ghost touch arrows, but I think the ranged attack may actually make more sense as an area effect (due to the large number of arrows).  In any case, I guess you can tell I'm thinking incorporeal for these.




Yes, I was thinking of some kind of AoE attack for the arrows too, with a Dexterity-based Reflex save for half damage and tied to a nasty poison-like effect.


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## Cleon (Sep 24, 2009)

freyar said:


> Let's make that area effect a cone, maybe 60 ft.
> 
> Swarm damage could be justified by the tiny swords n the first description (almost makes me wonder if we should do a different Birthright version).  Maybe incorporeal touch for regular hp damage?  Or negative energy damage?




The flavour text about them shooting their arrows from the clouds suggests a lot longer range than 60 feet. I was thinking they volley-fire at everything in an area (30 foot radius?) out to the maximum range of a longbow (1000 feet). Maybe with a -1 penalty on the Reflex save DC per 100 foot range increment?

Still not feeling the incorporeal subtype. I prefer them material, maybe with a gaseous form ability like a vampire.


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## freyar (Sep 24, 2009)

Yeah, you're right about the range, but such a long cone seems unbalanced.

I could see a gaseous form, but I don't think it would be an on/off ability, though.

Organization should include options with powerful undead "commanders," too.


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## Shade (Sep 24, 2009)

Rather than a cone, how about a burst?   That way, we can preserve the long range without causing a bunch of "collateral damage".

A cone would obviously have the most realistic results (hitting things in between), but a burst's no less realistic in D&D terms than if it shot an arrow from far away.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 25, 2009)

I'm okay with burst. They can do arcing fire.


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## Cleon (Sep 25, 2009)

Shade said:


> Rather than a cone, how about a burst?   That way, we can preserve the long range without causing a bunch of "collateral damage".
> 
> A cone would obviously have the most realistic results (hitting things in between), but a burst's no less realistic in D&D terms than if it shot an arrow from far away.




A 30 foot burst with a range of 1000 feet was what I was thinking of.

Although I see little reason they couldn't do both. A long-range "arching fire" burst (30' radius @ 1000' range) or a shorter-ranged cone (somewhere around 75-100 feet?), to represent spraying arrows at close-by targets?

Also, do we want to limit how many times a day they can use this attack? Presumably they'll only have so many poison arrows.


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## Shade (Sep 25, 2009)

Yep, that seems reasonable.

How about "at will" usage for the arrows, but they can only envenom them 3/day?

So the writeup might look something like this...

Arrow Storm (Ex):  A sluagh can release a volley of tiny arrows as an area attack.  The sluagh may choose to release either a 30-foot burst to a maximum range of 1,000 feet, or a 100-foot cone.  Regardless of the shape, the arrow storm deals xdx points of piercing damage (Reflex DC X half).  The save DC is Dexterity-based.

Envenom Arrows (Ex):  Three times per day, a sluagh may choose to envenom its arrow storm.  Any creature damaged by the arrow storm is exposed to the sluagh's poison.

_Sluagh Arrow Poison:_  Injury, Fortitude DC X, initial damage x Con, secondary damage x Con.  The save DC is Charisma-based and includes a +X racial bonus.


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## Cleon (Sep 25, 2009)

Your Arrow Swarm proposals looks good to me. All we've got to do is decide on damage. I suppose the same as the swarm's melee damage (however much that will be), since longbows and longswords do the same damage.

3d6 piercing?

As for the Envenom Arrows, I was wondering whether we could make it Supernatural, since it seems as much curse as venom going by the mythology.

The first AD&D version gives it deadly poison on the arrows.

How about 1d10/1d10 Con, like the _poison_ spell?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 25, 2009)

I like the idea of the poison being cursed somehow. Perhaps initial damage 1d10 Con, secondary damage a bestow curse spell (-4 to attack rolls, saving throws, skill and ability checks)?


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## Shade (Sep 25, 2009)

I like that last thought.  It's not as deadly for its probable CR, but still nasty.

3d6 sounds good.


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## freyar (Sep 26, 2009)

All those suggestions sound good.  I particularly like the bestow curse poison.


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## Cleon (Sep 26, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I like the idea of the poison being cursed somehow. Perhaps initial damage 1d10 Con, secondary damage a bestow curse spell (-4 to attack rolls, saving throws, skill and ability checks)?




Great idea! How about expanding it so the initial damage is 1d10 Con and it gets a choice of -6 penalty on one ability or the -4 attack/save/skill/ability checks. Then it could opt to apply the -6 to Con and do a potential 1d10+6 to Con, which gives it an option to shoot potentially lethal arrows which cause a permanent health disability (barring _remove curse_) to those lucky/unlucky enough to survive it.

That seems nasty and mythologically appropriate.

I like it!

EDIT: It also allows the Sluagh to inflict any other sort of anti-ability curse, emulating stories were elf-shot causing weakness (Str), clumsiness (Dex), disfigurement (Cha) or the loss of wits (Int/Wis).


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 26, 2009)

Fair enough point on the elf-shot. So, bestow curse with all the options?


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## Cleon (Sep 27, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Fair enough point on the elf-shot. So, bestow curse with all the options?




Well I left out the "Each turn, the target has a 50% chance to act normally; otherwise, it takes no action." option of _bestow curse_, since it doesn't match up to any of the described effects, and it may cause the players to quit if their PCs permanently lost half their actions.

While effective, it's just not that much fun to roll 50% failure every round until you can get _remove curse_ cast on you.

Now what save should we use now for its elfshot, Fortitude for the initial Con damage, Will for the curse?


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## freyar (Sep 27, 2009)

Let's either go all options or just the ability drain.  I think we might be getting too fiddly otherwise.  Not a big deal to me, though.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 27, 2009)

I prefer all options. And yes, the 50% one sucks.

I think we should do Fort for both stages of the poison, despite bestow curse, the spell, being Will negates.


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## Shade (Sep 28, 2009)

Like so?

Arrow Storm (Ex): A sluagh can release a volley of tiny arrows as an area attack. The sluagh may choose to release either a 30-foot burst to a maximum range of 1,000 feet, or a 100-foot cone. Regardless of the shape, the arrow storm deals 3d6 points of piercing damage (Reflex DC X half). The save DC is Dexterity-based.

Envenom Arrows (Su): Three times per day, a sluagh may choose to envenom its arrow storm. Any creature damaged by the arrow storm is exposed to the sluagh's poison.

Sluagh Arrow Poison: Injury, Fortitude DC X, initial damage 1d10 Con, secondary damage curse.  The curse functions similiar to the bestow curse spell (sluagh's choice of curse).  The save DC is Charisma-based and includes a +X racial bonus.

Did you prefer the name "Elf-shot" for one of the abilities?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 28, 2009)

Elf-shot for the poison would be thematically appropriate, but elves in D&D aren't very fey. I say stick to "poison".


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## freyar (Sep 29, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Elf-shot for the poison would be thematically appropriate, but elves in D&D aren't very fey. I say stick to "poison".



Yeah, I agree with that.


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## Shade (Sep 29, 2009)

Updated.

Does the +2 racial bonus on poison suffice?  That sets the DC equal to the arrow storm DC, which I think is mechanically beneficial.

Did we ever decide on the incorporeal vs. gaseous/insubstantial debate?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 29, 2009)

I think most of the votes were for incorporeal; I know mine was.


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## Shade (Sep 29, 2009)

Very well, then.   So "ghost touch" for the swarm damage?


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## Cleon (Sep 29, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Elf-shot for the poison would be thematically appropriate, but elves in D&D aren't very fey. I say stick to "poison".




Well I prefer elf-shot (but then a lot of the elves in my campaign are "very fey", and often not very nice), but I guess poison is more appropriate. Although I can see some advantage in working 'Curse' in the name to reflect its supernatural nature, but I'm having trouble figuring out a way that doesn't sound a little clumsy, such as "Curse-Poison Arrows".



Shade said:


> Does the +2 racial bonus on poison suffice? That sets the DC equal to the arrow storm DC, which I think is mechanically beneficial.




+2 racial is fine by me.



Shade said:


> Did we ever decide on the incorporeal vs. gaseous/insubstantial debate?




I'll (somewhat reluctantly) go along with incorporeal, but in any case I'd have ghost touch on the Sluaghs attacks (both arrows and swords).


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## Shade (Oct 1, 2009)

Does this suffice?

Ghost Strikes (Su):  A sluagh's swarm attack and arrow storm count as either corporeal or incorporeal at any given time, whichever is more beneficial to the sluagh.


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## freyar (Oct 2, 2009)

All this looks good.  Are we all set with special abilities?


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## Shade (Oct 2, 2009)

We still need the create/control aerial zombies ability.


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## Cleon (Oct 2, 2009)

Shade said:


> We still need the create/control aerial zombies ability.




I like the idea of giving them the ability to create more Sluagh from fey as well as zombies from other creatures. Something like:*Create Spawn (Su)*
Any Fey slain by a sluagh's envenomed arrow rises as a sluagh in 1d4 rounds. Its body remains intact and inanimate, but its spirit is torn free from its corpse and transformed. A fey who becomes a sluagh in this way retains none of the abilities it possessed in life. It is not under the control of any other sluagh, but it lusts to destroy and torment the living and behaves like a normal sluagh in all respects.

Any other living corporeal creature slain by a sluagh, including Fey a sluagh slays by means other than an envenomed arrow, becomes a zombie in 1d4 rounds. These zombies are under the command of the sluagh that created them and remain enslaved until its death. They do not possess any of the abilities they had in life. 

EDIT: Note that sluagh use their _fly_ spell-like ability on their zombies so they can fly along with the swarm.​


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## Shade (Oct 2, 2009)

Looks good!

Also, I suppose we need to add fly as a SLA.  Actually, since this is used primarily on the zombies, wouldn't overland flight be more appropriate (since it lasts hours rather than minutes)?

Do we still need animate dead, or does the create spawn ability suffice?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 3, 2009)

Create spawn would suffice. However, since we're doing the slaugh as a swarm, the create spawn for fey doesn't work. Perhaps something more akin to a death knell--the slaugh gains hit points (which become temporary if it's at max) and a temporary bonus to saving throws?


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## Cleon (Oct 3, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Create spawn would suffice. However, since we're doing the slaugh as a swarm, the create spawn for fey doesn't work. Perhaps something more akin to a death knell--the slaugh gains hit points (which become temporary if it's at max) and a temporary bonus to saving throws?




I thought we were planning on statting up individual Sluagh after we've finished the Swarm version, which would mean the Create Spawn on Fey would have a use.


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## freyar (Oct 3, 2009)

Cleon said:


> I thought we were planning on statting up individual Sluagh after we've finished the Swarm version, which would mean the Create Spawn on Fey would have a use.



We'll have to decide that, I guess.  Looking back, I think you're the only one who suggested the individual, though I wouldn't mind doing one.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 4, 2009)

I'm not too keen on individuals. I like them as a swarm only.


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## Cleon (Oct 4, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I'm not too keen on individuals. I like them as a swarm only.




Hmm, in that case I guess we could have the Fey join the swarm somehow - maybe each converted Fey adds a hit point to a Sluagh swarm, and when it reaches saturation it splits into two swarms?

Or just have them turn Fey into zombies too.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 4, 2009)

Well, I suggested that killing fey gets them a death knell-type boost. Bonus hp and a bonus to saves.


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## freyar (Oct 5, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Well, I suggested that killing fey gets them a death knell-type boost. Bonus hp and a bonus to saves.



Agreed to that.

EDIT: Or negative levels, which can perhaps become permanent somehow.


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## Shade (Oct 5, 2009)

That sounds good.  What happens if the individual fey is raised or resurrected?  An equivalent penalty to the sluagh swarm?


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## freyar (Oct 5, 2009)

Yes, but only if the bonus is still in effect?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 6, 2009)

Good call on the negative levels!


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## freyar (Oct 6, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Good call on the negative levels!



Think there should be a way for them to become permanent?  Maybe like we did for the blood riders (?); each negative level lasts a day, but if it has some negative levels continuously for X days, they become permanent?


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2009)

Here's what we did with the blood warrior/rider...

Necessary Slaughter (Su): Blood warriors must kill to maintain their strength. If a troop of blood warriors fails to kill sentient creatures with Hit Dice totaling at least that of the troop\'s Hit Dice each week, each member of the troop gains one positive level. 

Additionally, should a blood warrior be destroyed, each remaining member of the troop gains one positive level. 

When the troop slays a number of Hit Dice of sentient creatures equal to its own total Hit Dice, each member of the troop removes one positive level. If a blood warrior currently has no positive levels, it gains one negative level. 

Undead react to positive levels the way nonundead react to negative levels. An undead character with positive levels at least equal to its current level is instantly destroyed. After 24 hours, an undead must make a DC 18 Will save. If the saving throw succeeds, the positive level goes away with no harm to the creature. The afflicted creature makes a separate saving throw for each positive level it has gained. If the save fails, the positive level goes away, but the creature\'s level (or HD) is also reduced by one. 

A blood warrior with a negative level gains a +1 competence bonus on all skill checks and ability checks, attack rolls, and saving throws, and gains one effective level or Hit Die (whenever level is used in a die roll or calculation) for each negative level. A spellcaster gains one spell slot of the highest level of spells she can cast and (if applicable) one prepared spell of that level. These gains persist until the negative level goes away (is removed by the gain of a positive level). A negative level that is not removed by a positive level for 3 weeks becomes permanent, resulting in advancement by 1 HD.


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2009)

Duplicate post.


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## freyar (Oct 8, 2009)

Well, anyone think we should do something like that to let the negative levels become permanent?


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## Shade (Oct 8, 2009)

I'm fine with that.  You don't think it overcomplicates them too much, do you?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 9, 2009)

I don't think so. It's way easier than advancing by hit dice like barghests do.


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## Shade (Oct 9, 2009)

OK, blending the two...

Create Spawn (Su): Any fey creature slain by a sluagh's envenomed arrow becomes part of the sluagh swarm.  For each fey creature slain, the sluagh swarm gains one negative level. 

A sluagh swarm with a negative level gains a +1 competence bonus on all skill checks and ability checks, attack rolls, and saving throws, and gains one effective level or Hit Die (whenever level is used in a die roll or calculation) for each negative level. These gains persist until the negative level goes away (is removed by the gain of a positive level). A negative level that is not removed by a positive level for 3 weeks becomes permanent, resulting in advancement by 1 HD. 

Should a fey creature slain by the sluagh swarm later be restored to life, the swarm gains one positive level.  Undead react to positive levels the way nonundead react to negative levels. A sluagh swarm with positive levels at least equal to its current Hit Dice is instantly destroyed. After 24 hours, the swarm must make a DC 18 Will save. If the saving throw succeeds, the positive level goes away with no harm to the swarm. The sluagh swarm makes a separate saving throw for each positive level it has gained. If the save fails, the positive level goes away, but the sluagh swarm's Hit Dice are also reduced by one. 

Any other living corporeal creature slain by a sluagh, including fey creatures a sluagh slays by means other than an envenomed arrow, becomes a zombie in 1d4 rounds. These zombies are under the command of the sluagh that created them and remain enslaved until its death. They do not possess any of the abilities they had in life.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 9, 2009)

That looks pretty good!


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## Shade (Oct 9, 2009)

Updated.



			
				Me said:
			
		

> Also, I suppose we need to add fly as a SLA. Actually, since this is used primarily on the zombies, wouldn't overland flight be more appropriate (since it lasts hours rather than minutes)?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 9, 2009)

Agreed to overland flight. It's not range: personal, is it?


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## Shade (Oct 9, 2009)

D'oh!  It sure it.

How about...

Bestow Flight (Sp):  This functions exactly as the overland flight spell, except the target is one creature per Hit Die of the sluagh.  Caster level equals sluagh's Hit Dice.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 10, 2009)

This is equivalent to a... 6th level spell? 7th?


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## Cleon (Oct 10, 2009)

Shade said:


> OK, blending the two...
> 
> Create Spawn (Su): Any fey creature slain by a sluagh's envenomed arrow becomes part of the sluagh swarm.  For each fey creature slain, the sluagh swarm gains one negative level.
> 
> ...




That looks fine to me.


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## Cleon (Oct 10, 2009)

Shade said:


> Bestow Flight (Sp):  This functions exactly as the overland flight spell, except the target is one creature per Hit Die of the sluagh.  Caster level equals sluagh's Hit Dice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Well _wind walk_ is Cleric 6, Druid 7 and it also gives gaseous form, so I'd think 6th level should be enough.


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## freyar (Oct 12, 2009)

Agreed to all that including 6th level spell.


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## Shade (Oct 12, 2009)

Updated.

Skills: 44
Listen, Search, Spot...

Feats: 3

Environment: Temperate and cold hills and mountains?

Organization: Solitary, host (1 plus 3-24 zombies), or warband (x swarms plus x-x zombies and 1 greater undead leader)?

Alignment: Usually chaotic evil?

Sluagh speak Elven and Sylvan?


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## freyar (Oct 13, 2009)

Maybe Intimidate for that last skill?

Great Fort, Ability Focus (arrow storm), Ability Focus (sluagh arrow poison) ?

The rest sounds good with perhaps 2-6 swarms, 6-48 zombies, and a dread wraith leader?  I'm not sure how much I think the greater undead leader flavor fits with the rest, though.


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## Cleon (Oct 13, 2009)

freyar said:


> Maybe Intimidate for that last skill?
> 
> Great Fort, Ability Focus (arrow storm), Ability Focus (sluagh arrow poison) ?
> 
> The rest sounds good with perhaps 2-6 swarms, 6-48 zombies, and a dread wraith leader?  I'm not sure how much I think the greater undead leader flavor fits with the rest, though.




Those feats look good, and I like Intimidate for the last skill.

I quite like the idea of them being accompanied by incorporeal flying undead (e.g. shadows, wraiths & spectres).


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## Shade (Oct 13, 2009)

Updated.

CR 7?  They are slightly better than the feral spirit swarm (CR 6), but arguably not as deadly as a bloodfiend locust swarm (CR 8).


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 14, 2009)

I'm still tempted by CR 8. The bloodfiend locusts do grant negative levels, which is very nasty, but these are a swarm with a ranged attack! Perhaps we go for CR 8 and unholy toughness?


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## Cleon (Oct 14, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I'm still tempted by CR 8. The bloodfiend locusts do grant negative levels, which is very nasty, but these are a swarm with a ranged attack! Perhaps we go for CR 8 and unholy toughness?




Well it's a tiny Swarm, so its not immune to ranged weapons. Still, it is incorporeal *and* takes half damage even if that fails, which is nasty.

So, yes I can see CR8. Might as well add Unholy Toughness, although I don't think the extra 16 hit points would be worth a CR boost by itself.

I don't think I've seen the Feral Spirit Swarm, where's it from?


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## Shade (Oct 14, 2009)

You guys have convinced me of CR 8, and I don't think unholy toughness is necessary to justify it.  Plus, it seems a bit odd for 'em for some reason.

Updated.  I think we're done.

The feral spirit swarm is from _Sharn: City of Towers_.


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## freyar (Oct 14, 2009)

They do look done!


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## Shade (Oct 15, 2009)

*VRYKOLAKAS*
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-10
ARMOR CLASS: (none given)
MOVE: 12”
HIT DICE: 7
% IN LAIR: 25%
TREASURE TYPE: E
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-10
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Energy drain (see text)
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See below
INTELLIGENCE: Average
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
SIZE: M
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil

*GREAT VRYKOLAKAS*
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: - 2
MOVE: 12”
HIT DICE: 13
% IN LAIR: 10%
TREASURE TYPE: G
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-20
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Energy drain (see text)
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +1 or better weapon to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 30%
INTELLIGENCE: Average
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
SIZE: M
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil

The vampire in Greek folklore is called the vrykolakas. Both the vrykolakas and the vampire are animated corpses that prey upon the living, but the vrykolakas differs from the vampire in a number of details.

A vrykolakas has a weird, distinctive look. The 17th-century writer Leo Allatius gives an eyewitness account of the exumation of a man believed to be a vrykolakas: .On top of the bones of other men there was found lying a corpse perfectly whole; it was unusually tall of stature; clothes it had none, time or moisture having caused them to perish. The skin was distended, hard, and livid, and so swollen everywhere that the body had no flat surfaces but was round like a full sack. The face was covered with hair dark and curly; on the head there was little hair, as also on the rest of the body, which appeared smooth all over. The arms, by reason of the swelling of the corpse, were stretched out on each side like the arms of a cross. The hands were open, the eyelids closed, the mouth gaping, and the teeth white.

“Such bodies do not, like those of other dead men, suffer decomposition after burial, nor turn to dust, but having, as it appears, a skin of extreme toughness become swollen and distended all over, so that the joints can scarcely be bent; the skin becomes stretched like the parchment of a drum, and when struck gives out the same sound.”

The vrykolakas is not self-animated. Instead, an evil spirit enters the body, causing it to move  about. The vrykolakas would thus be the result of a bizarre kind of demonic possession, all the more terrible because the dead person has no mind to actively resist the takeover. The vrykolakas is most active at night, but only because devils and demons prefer darkness, not because the monster itself is in any way allergic to sunlight. If it so wishes, the vrykolakas can terrorize its victims in the daytime. In fact, a Greek proverb advises people to “beware of the noontime vampire.”

This monster delights in inflicting random violence and spreading panic. The vrykolakas does not so much feed off the blood of the living as it does their terror and fright. One common practice of the vrykolakas is to seat itself upon a sleeping victim and, by its enormous weight and horrific presence, cause an agonizing sense of oppression. A victim who dies from this oppression will himself become a vrykolakas.

In a short time, the original vrykolakas can gather a large and dangerous train of followers. Furthermore, as time goes on, the vrykolakas becomes more and more audacious and bloodthirsty, so that it is able to completely devastate whole villages. According to legend, if the vrykolakas in not annihilated within 80 days of its first appearance, it will become a merciless and invincible dealer of death. The mere sight of the vrykolakas in this state could cause death.

Among the many legends of the vrykolakas are some curious ones. One says that when the vrykolakas first returns from the dead, it goes to its native village at night, knocking at doors and calling for one person of the household. If that person answers, he will die the next day. But a vrykolakas never calls twice, and so the inhabitants of the island of Chios (from which this legend springs) always wait for a second call at night before answering. Even as late as 1910, according to John Lawson (author of Modern Greek Folklore and Ancient Greek Religion), the island of Santorini was notorious for its vampires (i.e., vrykolakas).  “To send vampires to Santorini” was an expression synonymous with sending “owls to Athens” or “coals to Newcastle”. (American equivalents might be sending “cars to Detroit” or “movies to Hollywood.”) The present day island of Santorini was known in ancient times as Thera. About 1,600 years ago, the island of Thera blew apart in a volcanic explosion believed to have been more devastating than even Krakatoa or Mount St. Helens. The resultant tidal waves and heavy fall of ash helped destroy the Minoan civilization and might possibly be the historical basis of the Atlantis myths. Making Santorini the “Isle of the Undead” may reflect some folk memory of that ancient disaster. Areas in a fantasy universe in which huge numbers of people were slain or died all at once might also form breeding grounds for immense numbers of undead.

There are two ways to destroy a vrykolakas. One method is to exorcise the evil spirit which animates the monster. If the exorcism is successful, the corpse immediately begins to decay, rapidly decomposing in a single round until only bones are left. The second method is to dig up the monster’s grave and burn the corpse. Presumably, the evil spirit is only in the corpse while it is animated. By finding the grave and exhuming the body, it is possible to catch the evil spirit unaware, before it has a chance to repossess the body.

In the statistics given here for the vrykolakas are two separate columns. The first, termed “Vrykolakas”. is for the monster from its initial appearance and for the first 80 days of its existence. The second column, termed “Great Vrykolakas” is for the monster after 80 days have passed. Sleep, charm, and hold spells do not affect these creatures, nor do poison or paralysis. A vrykolakas also has a special kind of attack. Each turn, anyone whom the vrykolakas touches must make a saving throw vs. spells (specifically against fear, with wisdom bonuses applicable). If the save fails, the victim loses an energy level as the vrykolakas feeds off his fear. The vrykolakas can also attack physically for 1-10 hp damage per strike. A cleric has the same chance to turn a vrykolakas as he does a mummy. In addition, the exorcise spell can force the evil spirit to leave the vrykolakas, rendering the creature harmless and inert. After 80 days, the vrykolakas gains enough power to become a great vrykolakas. The great vrokolakas has a better armor class and more hit points than an ordinary vrykolakas. It has two attacks per round, each of which does 2-20 hp damage. It also attacks by fear, but the power works on anyone who gazes at the great vrykolakas (in addition to anyone it touches). The fear power drains two levels if the save is unsuccessful. A great vrykolakas has a 30% resistance to all magic (except the exorcise spell).

The great vrykolakas is usually accompanied by 1-6 ordinary vrykolakas under its control. For purposes of turning it away, consider the great vrykolakas to be in the “special” category. If the great vrykolakas can be turned away, or the exorcism spell succeeds against it, the ordinary vrykolakas are also rendered harmless and “dead” again.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine # 126 (1987)

Vrykolakas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 15, 2009)

Oh man! Negative level gaze! Deals two negative levels at a time! The greats are seriously nasty! 

This'll be fun...


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## Shade (Oct 15, 2009)

It sure will!

Here's the 1e vampire for comparison...

*VAMPIRE*
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMORCLASS: I
MOVE: 12”/18“
HIT DICE: 8 + 3
% IN LAIR: 25%
TREASURE TYPE: F
NO. OF ATTACKS: I
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 5- 10
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Energy drain
SPECIAL DEFENSES: + 1 or better weapon to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See below
INTELLIGENCE: Exceptional
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
SIZE: M
PSIONICABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil


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## freyar (Oct 15, 2009)

Before we get started, anyone want to make these Outsiders based on the possession bit?  They're kind of like super-dybbuks.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 16, 2009)

Outsiders might be good for a twist, certainly.


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## Shade (Oct 16, 2009)

Interesting!  I hadn't made the connection, but they really are "super dybbuks".  

So, are we making them demons, then?


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## Cleon (Oct 16, 2009)

freyar said:


> Before we get started, anyone want to make these Outsiders based on the possession bit?  They're kind of like super-dybbuks.




I'm divided on that. We could just make them Undead (extraplanar) like Bodak or Devourers.

If we do go for Outsider, we'll obviously want to give them grave touched or a similar special quality.

Oh, and from what I remember of _vrykolakos_ myth, these undead fiends were unable to cross running water like standard vampires. Also, some of them became so powerful they would reform to torment the living even if the corpse was burnt and exorcised - in such cases, the _vrykolakos_ were shipped to an unpopulated island, were they could be seen roaming the shores wailing for victims in broad daylight!


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## Shade (Oct 16, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Oh, and from what I remember of _vrykolakos_ myth, these undead fiends were unable to cross running water like standard vampires. Also, some of them became so powerful they would reform to torment the living even if the corpse was burnt and exorcised - in such cases, the _vrykolakos_ were shipped to an unpopulated island, were they could be seen roaming the shores wailing for victims in broad daylight!




Now that is *badass*.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 17, 2009)

I like them as outsiders. Tomb-tainted is a good idea.


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## freyar (Oct 17, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I like them as outsiders. Tomb-tainted is a good idea.



Let's do that.  More loumarae are always good, even if we can't call them that.   And I can think of a couple demon lords who'd love these.


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## Cleon (Oct 17, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I like them as outsiders. Tomb-tainted is a good idea.




Fine by me.


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2009)

The dybbuk has 10 HD, Str -, Dex 20, Con 20, Int 16, Wis 15, Cha 23.

The lesser vry have 7 HD, and Average intelligence.

So tone 'em down to Str -, Dex 20, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 19?


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## freyar (Oct 19, 2009)

Seems fair enough.


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Are we borrowing this as is?

Corpse Possession (Su): A dybbuk that enters a square occupied by a corpse can, as a standard action, possess the body. It can only possess bodies of creatures of the following types: animal, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, and vermin. The body cannot be headless or destroyed beyond recognition, and a dybbuk cannot possess a corpse in the area of a magic circle against chaos, magic circle against evil, or a similar effect.

A dybbuk's possessed body rises to its feet on the dybbuk's next action. The fiendish essense of the dybbuk restores the host body to its full hit points; old wounds simply vanish, and any conditions that might have once affected the host are removed. A dybbuk can inhabit such a body indefinitely, and the body doesn't age while possessed. If the possessed body is reduced to -10 hit points, the dybbuk is forced out of the body and into an adjacent square (or the nearest available space). Unless the body is beheaded or completely destroyed, the dybbuk can attempt to possess it again on its next turn.

A dybbuk possessed body gains the benefits of its natural armor and any armor it wears, but not the dybbuk's deflection bonus to AC. The dybbuk adopts the statistics of the creature it is possessing but gains none of its extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like abilities, nor can it use any of the possessed creature's Intelligence-, Wisdom-, or Charisma-based skills.

A dismissal, dispel chaos, or dispel evil spell cast on the possessed body immediately drives the dybbuk from the body into an adjacent square (or the nearest available space) and dazes the dybbuk for 1 round (no save). Without the dybbuk to inhabit it, the dead body collapses to the ground, lifeless.


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## Cleon (Oct 19, 2009)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> Are we borrowing this as is?
> 
> Corpse Possession (Su): A dybbuk that enters a square occupied by a corpse can, as a standard action, possess the body. It can only possess bodies of creatures of the following types: animal, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, and vermin. The body cannot be headless or destroyed beyond recognition, and a dybbuk cannot possess a corpse in the area of a magic circle against chaos, magic circle against evil, or a similar effect




Don't much like this approach, it seems to be rather back-to-front. From what I remember of vrykolakas myths, although they may be animated by a demon it's portrayed as a rather material creature.

So, I'd rather stat up a "demonic corpse" as a corporeal creature and add a Supernatural trait noting that if it's destroyed it may be able to repossess another corpse (although not just any old one, only a cursed or unhallowed corpse should be vulnerable to possession by a vrykolakas, although unfortunately that category includes "folks killed by a vrykolakas") or simply reform it in the case of a greater vrykolakas.

Obviously, that would entail dropping the incorporeal trait and giving it a Strength score.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 19, 2009)

Cleon might have the right idea, but I don't like making the spirit unkillable. Make them a corporeal outsider that's killable by violence. Give them an SQ that dismissal or dispel evil kills them, but they have rejuvenation that's beaten by a Spellcraft/Know: religion/ Caster Level check against a DC based on the HD?


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## freyar (Oct 20, 2009)

I can't say I really like making them corporeal per se; in that case, we might as well go with undead rather than outsider.  What if a vrykolakas can possess a corpse for 24 hrs at a time and gives fixed stats to the possessed corpse during that time.  Then we could have two stat blocks, one corporeal and one incorporeal.

I feel like we did something similar not that long ago.  I just looked, it was the mara.  I guess for that one we did them as corporeal outsiders with possession flavor.  Well, I have a vague feeling I wanted an incorporeal possession then too and was overruled, so I'll go with the majority now as well.


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## Shade (Oct 20, 2009)

freyar said:


> I can't say I really like making them corporeal per se; in that case, we might as well go with undead rather than outsider.  What if a vrykolakas can possess a corpse for 24 hrs at a time and gives fixed stats to the possessed corpse during that time.  Then we could have two stat blocks, one corporeal and one incorporeal.




I think I'm with you.  If we're going to make them corporeal, I'd rather just make them undead, with vulnerabilities to things that affect outsiders.


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## freyar (Oct 20, 2009)

Sounds like two votes for corporeal (unknown type) and two for incorporeal outsider.  Or am I perhaps misinterpreting Cleon and demiurge?


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## Cleon (Oct 21, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Cleon might have the right idea, but I don't like making the spirit unkillable. Make them a corporeal outsider that's killable by violence. Give them an SQ that dismissal or dispel evil kills them, but they have rejuvenation that's beaten by a Spellcraft/Know: religion/ Caster Level check against a DC based on the HD?




Sounds good, I wasn't proposing the spirit was indestructible.



freyar said:


> Sounds like two votes for corporeal (unknown type) and two for incorporeal outsider. Or am I perhaps misinterpreting Cleon and demiurge?




Put me down for a vote for corporeal.

I agree it leaves us with a problem with the type. Is an Outsider possessing a corpse an Undead? Frankly, if a Devourer or a Bodak is an Undead, we don't really have much justification not making these guys Undead as well.

Should they have the Extraplanar or Evil subtypes?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 22, 2009)

I think, at this point, we're looping back around to undead, based on the devourer's precedent. Bodaks, at least, used to be something (mortals killed by the touch of ultimate evil, or by another bodak).


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## freyar (Oct 22, 2009)

The difference for me is that I don't usually think of the animating power of undead as being demons.  Devourer's, for example, are animated by a need to find their lost souls (and negative energy, of course), per the Dragon ecology.  These things, well, I'm not so sure.  I think we're still split on this.  But I do insist on removing the demon references if we go the undead route.


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## Shade (Oct 22, 2009)

Let's work 'em up as undead and see how they look.  We can always change if we're not satisfied with the results.

Retain the scores we came up with earlier (Str -, Dex 20, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 19), and add an appropriate Str score?  Vampire spawn have Str 16.


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## freyar (Oct 24, 2009)

Picking a number out of a hat, let's say Str 20.


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## Cleon (Oct 24, 2009)

freyar said:


> The difference for me is that I don't usually think of the animating power of undead as being demons.  Devourer's, for example, are animated by a need to find their lost souls (and negative energy, of course), per the Dragon ecology.  These things, well, I'm not so sure.  I think we're still split on this.  But I do insist on removing the demon references if we go the undead route.




Well I'm used to think of D&D undead as being created or occupied by demonic entities, since AD&D strongly implied that's how many Chaotic Evil undead came about.



freyar said:


> Picking a number out of a hat, let's say Str 20.




That suits me. It should certainly be higher than a Spawn's.

That would give us Str 20, Dex 20, Con -, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 19.

I'm thinking the Dex and Cha may be a tad high, we could knock off a couple of points from each to make it Str 20, Dex 18, Con -, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 17.


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## freyar (Oct 25, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Well I'm used to think of D&D undead as being created or occupied by demonic entities, since AD&D strongly implied that's how many Chaotic Evil undead came about.




I think I showed up too late, as I think about them in terms of Negative Energy.  Maybe outsiders from the negative energy plane? 



> That suits me. It should certainly be higher than a Spawn's.
> 
> That would give us Str 20, Dex 20, Con -, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 19.
> 
> I'm thinking the Dex and Cha may be a tad high, we could knock off a couple of points from each to make it Str 20, Dex 18, Con -, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 17.




Those scores appeal.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 25, 2009)

Those stats work for the lessers. We'll want to boost Dex and Cha back up for the greaters.


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## Cleon (Oct 27, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Those stats work for the lessers. We'll want to boost Dex and Cha back up for the greaters.




Well obviously.

I was assuming we'd tweak most, if not all, of the greater vrylokalas's ability scores up.


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2009)

Updated.


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## Cleon (Oct 28, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.




Looks a fair start. The AC19 seems right.

So, shall we start on the special abilities? Going by Molday's description, we want:

*A) "knock on door and kill" special attack*

A variant of _finger of death_ they can use once per night that does not need line of sight? Will save rather than Fortitude, since they must resist answering the call? No, I've got a better idea - we'll model it on _phantasmal killer_. Something like:*Call of the Dead (Su):* Once a night, a vrykolakas can call out the name of a sapient creature within 200 feet. That person must make a DCX Will save to resist answering the call. If they fail, they will die the next day (roll randomly to determine the time) unless they succeed at a DCX Fortitude save. This is a sonic, fear and mind-affecting power.​EDIT: I've thought of some tweaks to the above, I'll lay them out in my next post.
*
B) The "Sit on Sleepers and Oppress Them to Death (creates another Vrykolakas)"*

That sounds like a combination of the Night Hag's Dream Haunting and Create Spawn.*Oppress Sleeper (Su):* Once per night, a vrykolakas can sit upon a sleeping creature, causing agonizing nightmares of a horrific presence crushing them under its oppressive weight. The victim gets no benefit from their night's sleep, and takes 1 point of Constitution drain. Any humanoid slain by Oppress Sleeper rises as a vrykolakas the following night. Such vrykolakas are under the command of the vrykolakas that created them and remain enslaved until its death. They do not possess any of the abilities they had in life. At any given time a vrykolakas may have enslaved vrykolakas totaling no more than half its own Hit Dice; any spawn it creates that would exceed this limit are created as free-willed vrykolakas.​*C) "Can only be killed by exorcism or digging up and burning their corpse"*

Give it fast healing like a vampire (including the turning gaseous and returning to its grave if destroyed), although they don't have at-will _gaseous form_ like regular vamps. Then note that consuming their body with fire or exorcism destroys them. I guess we should do them separately.*Fast Healing (Ex):* A vrykolakas heals 5 points of damage each round so long as it has at least 1 hit point. If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, its body dissolves into invisible vapour (as per the _invisibility__gaseous form_ spells) and flies directly back to its lair. Any additional damage dealt to a vrykolakas forced into gaseous form has no effect. If it cannot enter its lair due to a _protection from evil_ effect or the like, it travels to the nearest similar spot such as an open grave, the cellar of an abandoned house. Once it reaches its destination, the gaseous form ends and the vrykolakas resumes corporeal form. The vrykolakas is then helpless for the next hour, then is no longer helpless and resumes healing at the rate of 5 hit points per round.

If the vrykolakas is burnt to ashes (-10 hit points or less) while it is resting as a corpse during the day, or after it has been rendered helpless as described above, it is permanently destroyed. plus  ​And the exorcism:*Vulnerability to Exorcism (Ex):* A vrykolakas is permanently destroyed if an exorcism or similar spell is successfully cast upon it, decaying into dust and bones within a round.​*C Growing in power until they become Greater Vrykolakas*

Do they just need time for this, or should we have them gain Hit Dice as they kill victims / create spawn / drain energy levels, becoming Greater Vrykolakas when they hit 13 Hit Dice? 

At the moment I favour the Create Spawn route, we could add the following to Oppress Sleeper:A vrykolakas gains 1 Hit Dice for every vrykolakas it creates with Oppress Sleeper. When it reaches 13 Hit Dice it becomes a Greater Vrykolakas.​Let's see, that means it needs to kill & tranform six people to become a greater vrykolakas. Assuming they're healthy Greek peasants they'd have 12-13 Con, so at 1 Con a night that would take 72-78 nights, which would fit with the 80 day timeframe of Molday's description. It also matches with the "The great vrykolakas is usually accompanied by 1-6 ordinary vrykolakas under its control" bit, if this reflect how many it created before becoming Greater.


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## Cleon (Oct 28, 2009)

Okay, further on the Call of the Dead, I feel we need a couple of additions:

A) A bit of text to make it explicit that it doesn't need line-of-sight, the target only needs to hear it.

B) Nailing down the time the death-curse kicks in. I was originally thinking 5-15 hours after the Call, but I now fancy noon the following day, to riff off the "beware the vampire in the noonday sun" line.

C) Someway to prevent/remove the call before the Fortitude save. I'm thinking the usual remove curse/break enchantment.

D) I've decided I like it doing hit points damage if the Fort save is passed, like _phantasmal killer_.

Put that together, and we get something like:*Call of the Dead (Su):* Once a night, a vrykolakas can call out the name of a sapient creature within 200 feet. This supernatural attack does not need line of sight, the intended target just needs to be able to hear the vampire's call. This is a sonic, fear and mind-affecting power.

The vrykolakas must call out the target's personal, individual name, if the target is a stranger or is using a false name the Call automatically fails. Assuming the Call uses the correct name, the target must succeed at a DCX Will save or be affected by the call and cry out an answer to the vrykolakas. Those affected will feel a impending sense of dread, and become convinced that a ghastly death is inexorably creeping up on them. At noon the following day, the Call's curse will complete itself, and the target must make a DCX Fortitude save or drop dead from fight. Even if the Fortitude save is successful, the subject takes 3d6 points of damage. A _remove curse_ or _break enchantment_ spell can remove the Call of the Dead before it manifests itself.

The save DCs are Charisma-based.​


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 29, 2009)

I'm glad you added the damage on failed Will, passed Fort, because that's exactly what I was going to suggest. I like the dream haunting model for the oppress sleeper.


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## freyar (Oct 29, 2009)

These are all great ideas, but I'm starting to feel a bit oppressed by all that brownish text!


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2009)

Some great work there!

Updated.

The only "exorcism" spell in 3.5 is a minor spell in Fiendish Codex, so we'll need to change the "vulnerability to exorcism" writeup to something more like dispel evil or holy word.

As an aside, would the plural of vrykolakas be "vrykolaki"?


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## Cleon (Oct 30, 2009)

freyar said:


> These are all great ideas, but I'm starting to feel a bit oppressed by all that brownish text!




I don't much like it myself. The post-editor does it automatically when I indent text.

I believe I can manually reset the colour, I'll try editing it.

EDIT: Yes, you can just set the font-colour to white (or anything else, for that matter).


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## Cleon (Oct 30, 2009)

Shade said:


> The only "exorcism" spell in 3.5 is a minor spell in Fiendish Codex, so we'll need to change the "vulnerability to exorcism" writeup to something more like dispel evil or holy word.
> 
> As an aside, would the plural of vrykolakas be "vrykolaki"?




Yes, that exorcism was just a hold-over from AD&D, _dismissal_ is the closest 3E equivalent, or any higher level spell that forces extraplanar entities back home, such as _banishment_, _dispel evil_ or _holy word_.

Although wouldn't we need to give it the Evil subtype for _dispel evil_ or _holy word_ to banish it?

EDIT: Suggested change as follows:
*Vulnerability to Exorcism (Ex):* A vrykolakas is permanently destroyed if a spell with the power to banish evil extraplanar creatures is successfully cast upon it, such as _dismissal_ or _dispel evil_. Its body decays into dust and bones within a round.​


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## Cleon (Oct 30, 2009)

Shade said:


> As an aside, would the plural of vrykolakas be "vrykolaki"?




I don't believe so, since it's Greek not Latin.

My best guess would by Vrykolakones, since the plural of Catoblepas is Catoblepones.


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## Cleon (Oct 30, 2009)

I've tweaked the "If it cannot enter its lair" bit of the Fast Healing proposals, since I was going to add a cave and forgot to do so, which means the current version has an ungrammatical sentence (what horror!). Also, the plus between invisibility and gaseous form somehow got shifted to the end of the paragraph.*Fast Healing (Ex):* A vrykolakas heals 5 points of damage each round so long as it has at least 1 hit point. If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, its body dissolves into invisible vapour (as per the _invisibility_ plus _gaseous form_ spells) and flies directly back to its lair. Any additional damage dealt to a vrykolakas forced into gaseous form has no effect. If it cannot enter its lair due to a _protection from evil_ effect or the like, it travels to the nearest suitable spot such as an open grave, the cellar of an abandoned house or a cave. Once it reaches its destination, the gaseous form ends and the vrykolakas resumes corporeal form. The vrykolakas is then helpless for the next hour, then is no longer helpless and resumes healing at the rate of 5 hit points per round.
 
 If the vrykolakas is burnt to ashes (-10 hit points or less) while it is resting as a corpse during the day, or after it has been rendered helpless as described above, it is permanently destroyed.
​


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## freyar (Oct 31, 2009)

Hehe, I didn't mean because of the text color, just that you'd written so many cool abilities I couldn't keep up! 

Fast healing looks pretty good, nice vampire variant.


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## Shade (Nov 2, 2009)

Nice job.  

Updated.

I don't think we need the Evil subtype, as bodaks lack it.

Skills: 40
Do we want any of the vampire or vampire spawn racial skill bonuses?

Feats: 3
Do we want any of the vampire or vampire spawn bonus feats?

Organization: Solitary or x (2-10) [x="oppression"?]

Treasure: Standard?

Advancement: 8-12 HD Medium and see text?


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## freyar (Nov 2, 2009)

Looking at dispel evil, you can banish evil (extraplanar) creatures, not just creatures with the evil subtype, so I agree with Shade.

Let's give it Hide, Intimidate, Listen, Spot for ranks?  I'd agree to vampire spawn racial skill bonuses (+4) except for Sense Motive, I think.  Probably bump to +8 for the greater version.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 3, 2009)

I agree with freyar's assessment of skills. Some of the vampire bonus feats would be appropriate--Lightning Reflexes and Imp. Initiative?


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## freyar (Nov 3, 2009)

Those bonus feats seem good.  For the regular feats, maybe Power Attack, Cleave, and Combat Reflexes?  Something melee-focused anyway.


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## Shade (Nov 3, 2009)

Updated.

Weight?  They are extremely bloated, apparently.

CR 6-7?


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## Cleon (Nov 3, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Weight?  They are extremely bloated, apparently.
> 
> CR 6-7?




The skills and feats all look good to me.

As for the weight, if I remember the legends they only get bloated if they've fed a lot, they are be like hollow dried-out wineskins or empty drums if they have lacked victims.

So, perhaps something like this:

A lesser vrykolakas is as tall as it was in life. They are often bloated on the blood of their victims and can weigh up to twice what they did in life, but a vrykolakas that has not fed for a long time shrivels like a dried-out wineskin and sounds as hollow as a drum, such a creature may only weigh half what it did in life. An average male human vrykolakas may be anywhere between 90 and 360 pounds, having weighed 180 pounds when alive.


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## Cleon (Nov 3, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Weight?  They are extremely bloated, apparently.
> 
> CR 6-7?




Not sure about the line "They feed upon terror and fright rather than blood." I think I'd prefer "as well as blood", since they are also enthusiastic haemovores.

I've just noticed a bigger problem though - we've forgotten to say how many levels of energy drain it inflicts!

Oh, and I'd think Challenge Rating 6 would be ample.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 4, 2009)

There vryolak are apparently not blood-feeders. I'm alright keeping them that way.


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## Shade (Nov 4, 2009)

One negative level like the vampire spawn?


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 4, 2009)

I think so. We can boost the greaters up to two.


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## freyar (Nov 5, 2009)

I'm fine with either flavor.  And I think we're ready for the greater version.


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2009)

Sounds good.



> After 80 days, the vrykolakas gains enough power to become a great vrykolakas. The great vrokolakas has a better armor class and more hit points than an ordinary vrykolakas. It has two attacks per round, each of which does 2-20 hp damage. It also attacks by fear, but the power works on anyone who gazes at the great vrykolakas (in addition to anyone it touches). The fear power drains two levels if the save is unsuccessful. A great vrykolakas has a 30% resistance to all magic (except the exorcise spell).
> 
> The great vrykolakas is usually accompanied by 1-6 ordinary vrykolakas under its control. For purposes of turning it away, consider the great vrykolakas to be in the “special” category. If the great vrykolakas can be turned away, or the exorcism spell succeeds against it, the ordinary vrykolakas are also rendered harmless and “dead” again.




It looks like the greater gets 13 HD, gains DR and SR, deals greater damage, and Int remains unchanged.

+6 Str and Cha over the lesser?  Improve Dex as well, or just natural armor, to account for the better AC?


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## freyar (Nov 9, 2009)

+6 Str/Cha sounds right.  Let's improve both Dex and natural.  Maybe +2 or +4 Dex?  Agreed to other adjustments.  Isn't there also some near invincibility for these too?


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## Cleon (Nov 10, 2009)

freyar said:


> +6 Str/Cha sounds right.  Let's improve both Dex and natural.  Maybe +2 or +4 Dex?  Agreed to other adjustments.  Isn't there also some near invincibility for these too?




According to some legends, particularly powerful vrykolakas would reform even if their bodies were burnt to ash after being stuffed with holy wafers, so had to be shipped to an uninhabited island.

As for the AC, I too was thinking "a little from column A and a little from column B" on the NA and Dex question. We could give it +2 Dex and +2 NA, to give it the AC22 that match the original AD&D AC of -2, but I feel D&D number inflation demands a somewhat higher AC than that, since I feel it needs to be comparable to a midlevel Demon like a Glabrezu (12 Hit Dice, AC27).

Perhaps four more points of both Dexterity and natural armour, for Dex 22, NA +9 and AC 25?


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## Shade (Nov 10, 2009)

That works for me!

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Nov 10, 2009)

Works for me, too.  And let's put in the vampire-like weaknesses/destruction.  I think we need to remember to up energy drain to 2 negative levels and also get rid of vulnerability to exorcism.


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## Shade (Nov 10, 2009)

We also need the fear effect and energy-draining gaze.


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## freyar (Nov 11, 2009)

Regular gaze attack? 

Draining Gaze (Su): energy drain, 2 negative levels, 30 feet, Fortitude DC X negates. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Want to do an aura for the fear?

You know, looking back at the description, there should be some kind of exorcism against these, but we should probably up the ante in terms of how powerful the spells need to be.


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## Shade (Nov 11, 2009)

Banishment or greater?

Fear aura similar to that of a pit fiend?

Gaze looks good.


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## freyar (Nov 11, 2009)

Yes to the fear aura.

I think banishment or greater would work.  That still requires at least caster level 11.


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## Shade (Nov 11, 2009)

Updated.

Damage reduction 10/silver?

+4 turn resistance?


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## freyar (Nov 11, 2009)

That sounds good.  Are these basically done?


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## Shade (Nov 11, 2009)

Skills: Bluff +7, Hide +18, Intimidate +13, Listen +15, Move Silently +8, Search +4, Spot +15, *20 more ranks*

Feats: Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative (B), Lightning Reflexes (B), Power Attack, *2 more*


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## Cleon (Nov 11, 2009)

freyar said:


> Regular gaze attack?
> 
> Draining Gaze (Su): energy drain, 2 negative levels, 30 feet, Fortitude DC X negates. The save DC is Charisma-based.




The mechanics look fine, but I would like to jazz up the name a bit - "Life-Sapping Gaze"?



freyar said:


> Want to do an aura for the fear?




I agree with the Pit Fiend fear aura it's been given.



freyar said:


> You know, looking back at the description, there should be some kind of exorcism against these, but we should probably up the ante in terms of how powerful the spells need to be.




I think _banishment_ should destroy them, but only temporarily. I'd give them an ability like a Ghost's Rejuvenation (Level check vs DC16 to reform after destruction). Heck, I'd just give them Rejuvenation but call it something a bit less silly, like "Rematerialisation". I don't think they look younger after reforming from being burnt to ash or banished! We'll probably want to lay out some method to destroy them which circumvents this ability (learning the animating demon's true name? a _holy word_, _limited wish_, _wish_ or _miracle_ spell once they're destroyed?).


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## Cleon (Nov 11, 2009)

Shade said:


> Skills: Bluff +7, Hide +18, Intimidate +13, Listen +15, Move Silently +8, Search +4, Spot +15, *20 more ranks*




Four more ranks in Hide, Intimidate, Listen, Move Silently and Spot?

I'd also give it a full vampire's +8 racial bonus to skills.



Shade said:


> Feats: Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative (B), Lightning Reflexes (B), Power Attack, *2 more*




Weapon Focus (slam)?

Ability Focus (life-sapping gaze), just to be horrible? Although if I did that, I'd suggest dropping the uses of its gaze attack to something like 3/day or 1/hour.


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## freyar (Nov 11, 2009)

I missed the missing skills and feats!

I think ability focus on the gaze would make them glass cannons of a sort.  Very capable of taking out a party at a level potentially even above their HD but toast if anyone can get a few good attacks in.

I can agree to rejuvenation (I understand why you don't like the name, but I think we're stuck with it).  I'm of the opinion that banishment might still let them rejuvenate, but burning should be a way to destroy them permanently.


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## Shade (Nov 11, 2009)

Updated.

So we're skipping Ability Focus?  I'd rather not reduce the usage of the gaze.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 12, 2009)

I say go for Ability Focus, if not for the gaze, then for the fear aura. 

Do they have a create spawn tied to their negative level dealing?


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## freyar (Nov 12, 2009)

Ability focus for fear makes sense.  

Per the original text, create spawn only goes with Oppress Sleeper.  I guess the energy drain just creates wights like normal.


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## Shade (Nov 12, 2009)

Do we want to take some artistic liberties and extend the energy drain to create lesser vrykolakas, or should we note that it creates free-willed wights?   The latter option just seems...odd.

Ability Focus for fear sounds good to me as well.


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## freyar (Nov 12, 2009)

Having energy drain create regular vrykolakas is ok by me if all agree.  But I'm not sure that a greater vrykolakas creating wights is any weirder than a succubus doing that.


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## Shade (Nov 13, 2009)

No, probably not.   Although "In a short time, the original vrykolakas can gather a large and dangerous train of followers" and "The great vrykolakas is usually accompanied by 1-6 ordinary vrykolakas under its control" could imply that it has an easier time creating spawn.

I have no real preference.  Anyone feel strongly either way?


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## Cleon (Nov 13, 2009)

freyar said:


> Ability focus for fear makes sense.
> 
> Per the original text, create spawn only goes with Oppress Sleeper.  I guess the energy drain just creates wights like normal.




Ability Focus (fear aura) is a neat compromise, I'll back that.

As for the energy drain gaze / create spawn question, I don't like the idea of it creating more vrykolakas with its gaze attack. I'd prefer if it just created corpses, although I'd be alright with it spawning wights.

Hmm, would the energy draining gaze give any undead it hits temporary hit points like an _energy drain_ spell does? I hope not, or it would make them really nasty with a posse of lesser vrykolakas (and maybe wights) to act as cannon fodder.


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## freyar (Nov 14, 2009)

As long as the gaze is just a negative level gaze and doesn't cite the spell, it shouldn't grant any temporary hit points to undead (that is, the spell does that but not generic negative levels).  Plus undead are immune to the gaze since it allows a Fort save! 

The thing with wights is that energy drain that kills a character always creates spawn or a wight.  From the SRD:


			
				SRD said:
			
		

> A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain. Depending on the creature that killed her, she may rise the next night as a monster of that kind. *If not, she rises as a wight.* A creature gains 5 temporary hit points for each negative level it bestows (though not if the negative level is caused by a spell or similar effect).



My bold there.  So either we specify something, or victims become wights (assuming there's no preventive magic used first).


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## Cleon (Nov 14, 2009)

freyar said:


> As long as the gaze is just a negative level gaze and doesn't cite the spell, it shouldn't grant any temporary hit points to undead (that is, the spell does that but not generic negative levels).  Plus undead are immune to the gaze since it allows a Fort save!
> 
> The thing with wights is that energy drain that kills a character always creates spawn or a wight.  From the SRD:
> 
> My bold there.  So either we specify something, or victims become wights (assuming there's no preventive magic used first).




Well, I've already said I have no objection to it creating wights.

As for the energy drain write up, I prefer having creatures slain by that SA sometimes becoming wights, not invariably doing so.


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## Shade (Nov 16, 2009)

OK, so we're agreed on sticking with wights.  Now, should they be free-willed or under the vryk's control?


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## freyar (Nov 16, 2009)

Let's just leave off the create spawn text, so they follow the default rules (ie, free-willed wights).


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 17, 2009)

Agreed to free willed wights.


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## Shade (Nov 17, 2009)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: x

Advancement: x

Anything else left for 'em?


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## freyar (Nov 17, 2009)

Just strip off some question marks (organization line, for ex).

CR 8 or 9?

14-20HD (Medium) and by character class?


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## Cleon (Nov 17, 2009)

Shade said:


> OK, so we're agreed on sticking with wights.  Now, should they be free-willed or under the vryk's control?




My preference is putting them under the greater vyrkolakas's control, but making them free-willed doesn't bother me.



freyar said:


> Just strip off some question marks (organization line, for ex).
> 
> CR 8 or 9?
> 
> 14-20HD (Medium) and by character class?




Well I guess Challenge Rating 9, since they're pretty nasty with all that energy draining. (And my preferred "nigh-immortal" version with more potent rejuvenation would likely be an even higher CR)

I'd say Advancement by Hit Dice, I also like the idea that especially powerful greater vrylokalas become bigger, like advanced mummies do.

14-20HD (Medium); 21-26 HD (Large) ?


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## freyar (Nov 18, 2009)

That advancement is reasonable, sure!


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 18, 2009)

Agreed to CR 9 and the advancement.


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## Shade (Nov 18, 2009)

Updated.

All done?


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## freyar (Nov 18, 2009)

I'm happy with it.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 19, 2009)

*nods*


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## Shade (Nov 19, 2009)

Thread closed due to exceeding 1,000 posts.

See continuation here.

Edit:  In fact, we actually addressed that very conversion upthread.

It must've just missed being removed from one of the unconverted lists.


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