# Scythe Wielder - Feats



## gordonknox (Jun 23, 2003)

I am making a 5th level fighter that will be wielding a scythe.   Why?  I just thought it would be different.

So, besides the basic feats such as Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, are there any other obscure feats that may be useful?  

Anything out there for a character wielding a weapon w two hands?

gk


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## Otterscrubber (Jun 23, 2003)

Might want expertise to help with the AC a bit in certain situations to help make up for a lack of a shield.


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## Shard O'Glase (Jun 23, 2003)

nope.

sure take the basic mellee packacke of power attack and cleave, maybe some xpertise.  I think the spring attack chain is fairly cool for the two handed wielders, and with the new pwer attack of 3.5 whirlwind might actually not suck.

I'd avoid improved crit on anything but a pure fighter.  Even with the x4 damage I don't think the 5% swing is enough.

Other than power attack 3.5, there really aren't two handed style specific feats.

Knockdown maybe since the 10 point sof damage part is easy to hit, anything that size of weapon is an advantage like disarm I guess.


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## Chun-tzu (Jun 24, 2003)

Power Critical (from MotW) is nice for a 4x weapon like the scythe. Note that it has Improved Critical as a pre-req.

If you're going for a "grim reaper" theme, then Death Blow (from S&F) is a decent enough feat, depending on how often CDGs come into your game.


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## IanB (Jun 24, 2003)

A 19-20 crit range on a x4 weapon is, in average damage over time terms, equivalent to a 15-20 range on a x2 weapon (or a 18-20 range on a x3.)* So I'd say there is an argument to be made in favor of it, particularly if combined with a keen effect.

Since vorpal in 3.5e supposedly only fires on a 20 regardless of weapon, the min-maxiness of the larger threat range weapons at high levels is slightly mitigated.

* Assuming all of these rolls are hits. The harder the opponent is to hit, the more attractive the x4 weapon becomes.


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## Mike Sullivan (Jun 24, 2003)

Notwithstanding what Shard O'Glase says above, Improved Critical is a must-take feat if you're going with Scythe.

It will increase your average damage against thing susceptible to critical hits by 15% (compare: with a Greatsword, you'd only get a 10% increase in damage).

Of course, it'll be quite an all or nothing affair, but Improved Critical is as good for the Scythe, in the long-term, as it is for the Falchion.


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## Darklone (Jun 24, 2003)

That build is actually pretty common. Many scythe wielders head towards Weapon Master... another +2 to your 18-20 crit range with Imp Crit and a keen scythe is fun.


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## Shard O'Glase (Jun 24, 2003)

Mike Sullivan said:
			
		

> *Notwithstanding what Shard O'Glase says above, Improved Critical is a must-take feat if you're going with Scythe.
> 
> It will increase your average damage against thing susceptible to critical hits by 15% (compare: with a Greatsword, you'd only get a 10% increase in damage).
> 
> Of course, it'll be quite an all or nothing affair, but Improved Critical is as good for the Scythe, in the long-term, as it is for the Falchion. *




the all or nothing part is whay its not worth it unless I guess if you go with the wepon master sugestion. Unlike the falchion where you get a nice consistent boost of damage, the scythe always seems to waste many of its crits on 5hp suckers.

So while yes there is a 15% increase vs things suceptible to crits the 5% increase in the chance means its very unlikely to be there when you want it.

Like I said though as a pure fighter go for it, you have feats to burn if your focussing on one style.  If he switched to other classes though I'd likely go for other feats.


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## Mike Sullivan (Jun 24, 2003)

Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> *the all or nothing part is whay its not worth it unless I guess if you go with the wepon master sugestion. Unlike the falchion where you get a nice consistent boost of damage, the scythe always seems to waste many of its crits on 5hp suckers.*




Well, Improved Critical _does_ have a fairly high BAB requirement.  How many 5 hp suckers are you fighting at level 8?  



> *So while yes there is a 15% increase vs things suceptible to crits the 5% increase in the chance means its very unlikely to be there when you want it.*




It's there for you when you're fighting dragons or giants or other high-hitpoint things where you're going to be taking many swings at them.

But here's my real point:  Why go scythe if you aren't going to really work the critical range?  A scythe that you haven't bothered to get Imp. Critical or Keen for is inferior in every way to a Greatsword that you've bothered to get either Imp. Critical _or_ Keen.


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## Otterscrubber (Jun 24, 2003)

Ya, if yer going with a scythe you have to get Improved Crit, it is a moral imperative.


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## Shard O'Glase (Jun 24, 2003)

On a metagame level I can't fathom going scythe, sunder sucks way too much for me to use a wood weapon in mellee.  If I'm DMing I never use sunder so my players can feel free to go for it.

I think scythe is all about the cool factor of it being a scythe.  And yes the crit is cool but as like a fighter-barbarian like my last character I wouldn't of gone improved crit,  just didn't have enough feats.  My game plan ran out at 12th level though so I may have picked it up at 15th can't say for sure.

If I had stayed fighter my game plan would of ran out much earlier like at 8th level, so I may have picked it up at 9th.  I definetly would of picked it up if power crit ws in the game I was playing, but we just used the PH for feats.

Personlly though I think you gain mroe use out of a focussed fighter till 6ish level, and then switch into ranged feats for a bit. All you really need is point blank, rapid, and maybe precise shot though once melle happens you'll likely be there its not essential. Then I round out my prefered style form there on.


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## Dreeble (Jun 24, 2003)

*Small sidetrack*

Heya:

 This is hopefully only a very small sidetrack.  I'm curious as to how people determine average weapon damage when taking into account criticals.

 I understand people (Spikey, for example) have their own average damage calculators, but I wrote my own anyway.  I was mostly curious to see how 3.0 Power Attack compared to 3.5.  For those interested it seemed like, except for the extremes, Power Attack in 3.0 either is bad, or never use more than 2 points.  For 3.5, it seemed like people should _always_ use a point or two of PA, and sometimes up to 5 or so.

 Anway, average damage is hit chance * average damage.  If I take into account criticals, is that hit chance * average damage + (threat range or hit chance, whichever is lower) * average damage * critical multiplier?

Thanks much,
Dreeble


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## gordonknox (Jun 24, 2003)

Darklone said:
			
		

> *That build is actually pretty common. Many scythe wielders head towards Weapon Master... another +2 to your 18-20 crit range with Imp Crit and a keen scythe is fun. *




Weapon master, from Sword and Fist?

gk


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## Shard O'Glase (Jun 24, 2003)

yup, and I think OA had a varient.


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## Mike Sullivan (Jun 24, 2003)

*Re: Small sidetrack*



			
				Dreeble said:
			
		

> *Heya:
> 
> This is hopefully only a very small sidetrack.  I'm curious as to how people determine average weapon damage when taking into account criticals.*




Heya, Dreeble.

Actually, I generally just use this as a shortcut for determining critical damage (I'll explain why afterwards):

If crit range/multiplier is:

20/x2 then multiply damage by 1.05
20/x3 or 19-20/x2 then multiply damage by 1.10
20/x4 or 18-20/x2 then multiply damage by 1.15
19-20/x3 or 17-20/x2 then multiply damage by 1.20
18-20/x3, 19-20/x4, or 15-20/x2 then multiply damage by 1.30
18-20/x4 or 12-20/x2 then multiply damage by 1.45

(Basically, a martial weapon like a longsword or battle axe gets a 10% bonus for criticals, "special" weapons like a pick or rapier get a 15% bonus, "bad" weapons like monk weapons or most simple weapons get a 5% bonus.  Double or triple the bonus for Keen and improved critical as necessary.)

Okay, so how does that work?

A critical hit is determined by two D20 rolls -- one of them is within your critical threshold, and the other is within your to-hit threshhold.

The chance of rolling into your critical threshhold is set -- if your threshold is 20, then it's 5%, if it's 19-20, it's 10%, etc.

As you probably know, the odds of succeeding in two unrelated things (like two die rolls) are the odds of each event multiplied by each other.

Obviously, your chance of rolling high enough to hit is the same as your chance to hit.  And the chance to roll your threshold is noted above.  So, for example, if you have a 19-20 threshhold, obviously your chance of succesfully critting is 10% of your chance to hit.

So, taking that case above, 90% of the time, you do a normal hit, and 10% of the time, you do a critical hit.  Let's assume that your critical multiplier is x2.  That means, if d is your damage, that your total expected damage can be written as:

.9d + .1*2d

Right?  (90% of the time, you do normal damage, 10% of the time, you do twice normal damage).

Expanding that out, we see that it goes like this:

.9 + .2d

1.1d

So multiply normal damage by 1.1, and you'll get your damage taking into account critical hits.

Similarly, what if you have a 20/x3 crit?

.95d + .05 * 3d
.95d + .15d
1.1d

Etc.

So that's how I derived all of the above numbers.  The only thing you have to watch out for is this:  If your to-hit roll is bad enough that you don't hit on some part of your critical threshold (for example, you have a 12-20/x2 thresh, and you hit on a 14+), then your threshold effectively "shrinks" (to 14-20/x2, in our example).  Then, you can't just use the normal figures above, you have to recalculate.  In this case, it'd be:

.65d + .35 * 2d
.65d + .7d
1.35d

Is that relatively clear?


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## Dreeble (Jun 24, 2003)

*Crystal*

Heya:

 Yep, and thanks.  Very clear.  Factoring in criticals really changes when it's optimum to use power attack.  Also, I'm not too impressed with Scythes now, I think. 

Take care,
Dreeble


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## Mike Sullivan (Jun 24, 2003)

*Re: Crystal*



			
				Dreeble said:
			
		

> *Heya:
> 
> Yep, and thanks.  Very clear.  Factoring in criticals really changes when it's optimum to use power attack.  Also, I'm not too impressed with Scythes now, I think. *




I ran the numbers on scythes at one point.  They're better than greatswords (in terms of expected damage against creatures susceptible to criticals) once you've got a +12 or higher bonus to damage, including all sources, assuming both the greatsword and the scythe are keen and you have improved critical.

...And you have to get significantly above +12 to damage before the difference is terribly noticeable.

Yeah, I'm not too impressed with them either.  But they look cool!


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## Shard O'Glase (Jun 24, 2003)

yeah the difference between 2d4 and 2d6 is signifigant, but ave damage is 5 to 7. 2 points a hit is hard to make up with a slightly better crit.  Same deal I suppose with the flachion, though that is my favortie weapon.

I think they should of been 1d10 instead of 2d4, but It's been way too long since I took statistics for me to attempt to figure it out.


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## Dreeble (Jun 24, 2003)

*Numbers to plug in?*

Heya:

 With all the discussion on 3.5 Power Attack going around, I've become really curious about this stuff.  Mike, could you give me some numbers to plug in, since I'm just not seeing Scythes being worthwhile _at all_ (well, relative to Great Swords at least).

Thanks,
Dreeble


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## Mike Sullivan (Jun 25, 2003)

Sure.

So, we're looking at the damage of great swords versus the damage of scythes:  2d6 19-20/x2 vs 2d4 20/x4.

Basically, then, what we're interested in is this inequality

Let's take 2d4 to be the same as "5" and 2d6 to be the same as "7."

First, let's check out the case where we've got a Keen scythe and a Keen greatsword, and improved criticals in each one.

In that case, what we're interested in is this inequality (note that chance to hit is the same for each weapon, so we abstract that out of our discussion entirely).

(5 + x) * 1.45 > (7 + x) * 1.3

(In other words, what is the damage bonus x such that the scythe's total average damage is higher than the greatsword's total expected damage?)

Answer:

7.25 + 1.45x > 9.1 + 1.3x
.15x > 1.85
x > 12.33333...

So, if your damage bonus is 13 or higher, in this case, it's slightly better to use a scythe.

Now, what if we don't have the keen enchantment available?

In that case, we're looking at:

(5 + y) * 1.3 > (7 + y) * 1.2
6.5 + 1.3y > 8.4 + 1.2y
.1 y > 1.9
y > 19

So if your damage bonus (note: not expected damage, but damage _bonus_ is 20 or higher, it's better to use a non-keen scythe (if you have improved critical) than a non-keen greatsword).

Is that what you wanted, or did you want something that's Power-Attack related?  Power Attack is kind of a difficult comparison to make, since it relates a lot of the AC of the opponent.  Broadly speaking, Power Attack is better for the scythe than for the greatsword -- because PA bonus damage is before-criticals, it's really multiplied by the critical multiplier.  So, when you trade in one point of attack, you don't really get +2 to damage with the greatsword, you get +2.4.  And for the scythe, you trade in one point of attack for +2.9 damage.

I'm not really sure how to put that in formal mathematics terms.  Also, whenever I attempt to do so, the critical multiplier keeps cancelling out, which would imply that there _isn't_ an advantage in Power Attack to having a scythe.  So somewhere I'm making an error, but I can't figure out where.  I'll keep chugging at it.

Did I mention I'm a computer scientist?  Why the hell am I doing all this by concrete analysis?  I should just run a brute force calculation.


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## IanB (Jun 25, 2003)

I think you might want to note, though, that as the chance to hit an opponent gets smaller, the scythe becomes relatively more attractive. At an extreme, when you only hit on a 20 the weapons have effectively the same threat range and thus the scythe has a big advantage, no?


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## Dreeble (Jun 25, 2003)

*Thanks*

Mike:

 Thanks much.  I was too into my little program and not paying all that much attention to your 1.10 - 1.20 - 1.30 - 1.45 thingy.  I'll look at that some more.  However, unless I've got a bug somewhere, I still don't like Scythes I think.  Probably a bug, though.  Does anybody have a link to Spikey's damage calculator?  I want to try that out now.

 When comparing Scythes to Great Swords (or just doing expected damage comparison's in general) is it better to assume full attacks or standard attacks?  I've mostly been looking at full attacks.  Still, as Ian points out, the less accurate later iterative attacks should favor the Scythe.  Hmm.

Take care,
Dreeble


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## Mike Sullivan (Jun 25, 2003)

IanB said:
			
		

> *I think you might want to note, though, that as the chance to hit an opponent gets smaller, the scythe becomes relatively more attractive. At an extreme, when you only hit on a 20 the weapons have effectively the same threat range and thus the scythe has a big advantage, no? *




Yes and no.  Let's actually take the case where you've got an improved crit, keen scythe-wielder vs. an improved crit, keen greatsword-wielder.  Now, suppose you hit on an 18+.

In that case, the greatsword wielder has an effective 18-20/x2 crit range (or a 1.15 multiplier), while the scimitar still has a 18-20/x4 crit range (or a 1.45 multiplier).

In that case, our equation looks like this:

1.45(5 + z) > 1.15(7 + z)
7.25 + 1.45z > 8.05 + 1.15z
.3z > .8
z > 2.6666...

So if your damage bonus is a relatively trivial 3 or higher, in that fairly specialized case, scythe is a better choice than greatsword.


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## Mike Sullivan (Jun 25, 2003)

*Re: Thanks*



			
				Dreeble said:
			
		

> * When comparing Scythes to Great Swords (or just doing expected damage comparison's in general) is it better to assume full attacks or standard attacks?  I've mostly been looking at full attacks.  Still, as Ian points out, the less accurate later iterative attacks should favor the Scythe.  Hmm.*




Opinions vary.  Probably, you should do both, and just do your best to internalize both numbers -- certainly, in most games, both full and standard attacks _will_ come up.


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## Jondor_Battlehammer (Jun 25, 2003)

You could go with the FR heavy weapon addon. It makes a weapon heavier than normal, and increases it's damage, so it would be a 2D6 scythe. It would be pretty easy to say that the extra weight comes from a metal haft. That would help vs sunder.

Then there is always monkey grip, so you could use a shield at the same time, thou this lessens the effectiveness of Power Attack. With a x4 crit, I'd stick two handed. 

Expertise and a Defending weapon are good ways of keeping up the AC, aswell as  Greater Expertise and Greater Defending(?) later on. Also, there is a feat that allows you to ad 2x STR mod to a two handed weapon. I wouldn't normally take it, but for a x4 crit, it might be worth it.

If you are looking fo PrC's, the frenzied Beserker(?) eventually got a Power Attack that traded damage for penalties 2 to 1. I don't know how they are going to handle this in 3.5, but if it went to 3 to 1, it could be very ugly.

Side note, could a Frenzied Berserker be the ultimate dual weapon fighter?


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## Darklone (Jun 25, 2003)

Actually, I've seen a lot of paladins with Scythe... since you don't need many feats to use them properly (Smite Evil as class ability, Power Critical and Improved Critical as feats).

Overall, if you fight many high AC monsters, the scythes crit range proves to be better than the falchions, since many "threats" with the falchion may not hit at all...


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## IanB (Jun 25, 2003)

The silliness of a monkey gripped scythe is _precisely_ why that feat will never see the light of day in my campain.


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## Mike Sullivan (Jun 25, 2003)

I am absolutely baffled as to why anyone would think that Monkey Grip is a good feat.

You could spend that feat on Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Bastard Sword, and your average damage is one lower than a Greataxe, 1.5 lower than a Greatsword.  And does anyone honestly think that trading off 2 points to hit for one to 1.5 points of damage is a good idea?

EDIT:  The reason that two-handed weapons are such pros and dishing out the deep hurting has a lot less to do with their base weapon damages, and a lot more to do with the * 1.5 str bonus, anyhow.


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## Shard O'Glase (Jun 25, 2003)

It's not good, but some might like the style.  Its very anime like.  Me I love big swords but I expect them to be wielded two handed.  After FF7 big swords is the only way to go for me, that was even back in 2e when they sucked.


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## Lotus (Jul 1, 2003)

> If crit range/multiplier is:
> 
> 20/x2 then multiply damage by 1.05
> 20/x3 or 19-20/x2 then multiply damage by 1.10
> ...




Great shortcut.   With that chart, the quickie formula would be:

((21 * number of attacks) - (sum of rolls needed to hit)) * average damage * crit factor / 20

For example, 2d6+12 19-20/x4, needing rolls of 5, 10, 15 to hit:  (63 - 30) * 17 * 1.3 / 20 = 36.465.

And if you have energy enchantments it's just a little more complex:

((21 * number of attacks) - (sum of rolls needed to hit)) * avg normal dmg * (1 + ((crit factor-1) * avg crit dmg / avg normal dmg)) / 20

For example, give that weapon above a 1d6 flaming enchantment and you have:  

(63-30) * 20.5 * (1 + (.3 * 17 / 20.5)) / 20 = 42.24.

Or flaming burst (why, God, why?):

(63-30) * 20.5 * (1 + (.3 * 22.5 / 20.5)) / 20 = 44.9625.

Or to remind everyone why burst sucks, trade it for another +1:

(63-27) * 21.5 * (1 + (.3 * 18 / 21.5)) / 20 = 48.42


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## Black_Dog (Jul 1, 2003)

I just have to point out that weapon threat range increases in the upcoming 3.5 rules will no longer stack, ie Keen enhancment and Improved Critical no longer result in a Scythe having a threat range of 18-20.
I must admit I have played a Cleric/Fighter/War Priest of quite high level who had a Scythe and very effective it was too. Flaming Burst or another such enhancement results in a Critical hit giving an extra 3d10 points of damage!
The feats he had to deal with his Scythe? Well remembering that he was also a cleric I think all he had was Improved Critical!


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## Camarath (Jul 1, 2003)

With Weapon Master you can still get the threat range down to 17-20. With the new power attack you can take a -5 to attack and get +40 to damage on a critical. A +1 scythe with flaming burst, shocking burst, acidic burst and icy burt (total enhancement of +9) wield by a weapon matser with 26 str and who uses full power attack will do 8d4 + 92 + 3d10 fire + 3d10 acid + 3d10 cold + 3d10 electricity (112 to 244) on a critical strike. A simple +5 scythe would do 116 to 140 on a critical (normal damage 29 to 35) . If the weapon is adamantine then it will still bypass most DR. Aginst high AC foes 17-20 can encompass a large perecnt of your hits.


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## Mike Sullivan (Jul 1, 2003)

Black_Dog said:
			
		

> *I just have to point out that weapon threat range increases in the upcoming 3.5 rules will no longer stack, ie Keen enhancment and Improved Critical no longer result in a Scythe having a threat range of 18-20.
> I must admit I have played a Cleric/Fighter/War Priest of quite high level who had a Scythe and very effective it was too.*




Not as effective as wielding a greatsword, unless your damage bonus was 13 or higher.  And if it was that high, fractional hit points per round more effective than a greatsword.



> * Flaming Burst or another such enhancement results in a Critical hit giving an extra 3d10 points of damage!*




...read, "Flaming Burst or another such enhancement results in a lot of wasted money."


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## wolff96 (Jul 1, 2003)

I'm curious...

The only time I've ever even considered an Elemental Burst weapon is on a high critical weapon -- such as a Scimitar.  Using such a weapon nets a lot of extra d10's of damage, 1d10 at a time.

However, a scythe master (especially if using the crit ability increase of the Weapon Master class) will do a much higher number of dice of damage with a x4 weapon... 3d10 normally, or 4d10 with the increased critical multiplier.

Can anyone tell me, using the math that permeates this thread and is over my head (I never did like statistics... ) which (if either) is actually worthwhile?


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## Mike Sullivan (Jul 1, 2003)

wolff96 said:
			
		

> *I'm curious...
> 
> The only time I've ever even considered an Elemental Burst weapon is on a high critical weapon -- such as a Scimitar.  Using such a weapon nets a lot of extra d10's of damage, 1d10 at a time.
> 
> ...




Neither is actually worthwhile.

They're mathematically nearly identical -- The pick/scythe gets 3d10 exactly 1/3rd as often as the rapier/falchion gets 1d10 (assuming all else is equal), and neither of them are as good as getting just the normal _flaming_ property and an additional +1.

Examples:

+1 Keen, Flaming Burst Scimitar wielded by 18 Str Fighter with Weapon Specialization and Imp. Crit:

Normal Damage:
1d6 + 7 + 1d6 (flame) = 14 on average

Critical Damage:
2d6 + 14 + 1d6 + 1d10 = 30 on average

Percentage of hits which are criticals: 45% (this is under 3.0 rules, in which _keen_ and imp. crit stack)

So, total expected damage per hit:
.65 * 14 + .45 * 30 = 22.6


+1 Keen, Flaming Burst Heavy Pick wielded by 18 Str Fighter with Weapon Spec. and Imp. Crit:

Normal Damage:

1d6 + 7 + 1d6 = 14 on average

Critical damage:

4d6 + 28 + 1d6 + 3d10 = 62 on average

Percentage of hits which are criticals: 15%

Total expected damage per hit:
.85 * 14 + .15 * 62 = 21.2


Compare to:

+2 Keen, Flaming Heavy Pick

Normal Damage:

1d6 + 8 + 1d6 = 15 on average

Critical damage:

4d6 + 32 + 1d6 = 49.5 on average

Same percentages

Total expected damage per hit:
15 * .85 + 49.5 * .15 = 20.175

...But don't forget the additional +1 to hit!  Assuming that you hit on a 3+ for the +1 weapon and a 2+ for the burst weapon, then your actual expectations are:

.9 * 21.2 = 19.08 (burst weapon)
.95 * 20.175 = 19.16625 (+2 weapon)

And that's the best-case scenario for the flaming burst weapon -- if you're going from, say, needing a 10+ to hit to needing an 11+ to hit, then your expectations are:

.5 * 21.2 = 10.6 (burst weapon)
.55 * 20.175 = 11.09625 (+2 weapon)

In other words, Don't Get Burst Weapons.  They suck.


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## Darklone (Jul 2, 2003)

Mike Sullivan said:
			
		

> *Neither is actually worthwhile.
> 
> They're mathematically nearly identical -- The pick/scythe gets 3d10 exactly 1/3rd as often as the rapier/falchion gets 1d10 (assuming all else is equal), and neither of them are as good as getting just the normal flaming property and an additional +1. *




Mathematically they are mostly identical... but you have to consider that a weapon with a higher crit range (e.g. scimitar) is better against low AC monsters with few hitpoints (you don't need that supercrit damage to drop them) while a scythe is better against a monster that you only hit with an 19+ ... 

Mike, or anyone else... did I get that right, flaming burst weapons only do extra damage on a crit? No extra d6 fire damage on normal hits?

Not that I used these silly +1d6 damage things at all...


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## Mike Sullivan (Jul 2, 2003)

Darklone said:
			
		

> *Mike, or anyone else... did I get that right, flaming burst weapons only do extra damage on a crit? No extra d6 fire damage on normal hits?*




No, Flaming Burst (specifically -- some of the other "burst-like effects" work a little differently) does 1d6 fire damage on a normal hit, 1d6 + 1d10 damage on a x2 crit, 1d6 + 2d10 on a x3 crit, and 1d6 + 3d10 on a x4 crit.  At least, that's how I interpret it.  I think that there's an argument to be made for it doing a flat 1d10 (not 1d6 + 1d10) on a crit.

But it's worthless even with the more generous interpretation, so why not go with that?


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## Darklone (Jul 2, 2003)

A big boom shows style, I gonna use that  

Worthless stuff: All the better for "balance"!


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## Saepiroth (Jul 3, 2003)

I say take a level or two of Monk, get Extra Stunning Attacks, Get Death Blow, get a Ki Focus scythe, and then play Grim Reaper. 

Stun your target, than Coup de Grace your target. 







Better get a black cowl into the mix, too. For style.


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## Staffan (Jul 3, 2003)

A stunned target isn't helpless, and thus isn't eligible for coup de grace.


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## Fedifensor (Jul 3, 2003)

Camarath said:
			
		

> *If the weapon is adamantine then it will still bypass most DR.*



Creatures with Adamantine DR are usually nonliving (like golems), and immune to crits.


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## Fedifensor (Jul 3, 2003)

With the new 3.5 rules on threat ranges, your best threat range is 13-20 (a Weapon Master of the Rapier with Improved Crit).  A Weapon Master of the Scythe with Improved Crit has a crit of 17-20/x4.  Seems like Scythes became more viable in 3.5.


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## Camarath (Jul 3, 2003)

Fedifensor said:
			
		

> *Creatures with Adamantine DR are usually nonliving (like golems), and immune to crits. *




I had heard that there was to be a hierarchy of materials with Adamantine at the top.


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## Jhamin (Jul 4, 2003)

Camarath said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I had heard that there was to be a hierarchy of materials with Adamantine at the top. *




Nope.  No more hierarchies.  It was felt that all anyone ever did was get whatever was at the top of the hierarchy and then proceed to ignore damage resistance.  There is now a menu of materials, with some materials affecting some creatures and not others.  You will now need a variety of weapons to affect a variety of creatures.

Silver vs. Lycantheropes, some undead, & some outsiders
Iron vs. Fey
Adamantine vs. Constructs
Lawful weapons vs. Slaad, Chaos Beasts, etc
Magic vs. some undead, some outsiders
and so on..

Your +5 Flaming Adamantine holy avenger will not bypass the DR of a werewolf, cause you need siver.


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