# So Mad Can't See (Update 09/10; Victory!)



## Vraille Darkfang (Aug 12, 2006)

I'm going to see if this makes me feel any better.

You might remember that earlier in the year I had a Thread entitled "I need a Cat Whacked".

Basically, about how this lady moved in next door & let her cat run wild & how it was turning my birdfeeders into catfeeders.

She has since allowed 4-5 more cats have the run of her basement.

The problem has escalated to the point the authorities were called in.

One cat is now dead.  The rest are on "The List"

Basically, I was trying to be nice.  I told the lady her cat's were really being a nuisance.

Her reply "I can't control my Cats, they do what nature intended" (Thank god she doesn't raise Pit-Bulls).

Fine.  I'd argue that nature intended for the cat to kill or starve.  Not kill 3-4 birds a day, leave their dead bodies and then wander back & stuff itself full of cat food.

But, as she allowed more cats the run of her basement (she leaves her basement window open).  The problems have gotten unacceptable.  I've tried various pellets/cat repellents, not of it works very well (or is just too expensive; 30 bucks a week is unreasonable).

1.  It smells like a dirty litterbox in our yard.  We can not even open our windows.  My wife filled SIX!!!!!!!!! Wal-Mart sacks full of Cat Crap just along 1 side of our house the other day.

2.  One of the cats is not neutered.  It has taken to Sprayng my & my nieghbor's car.  We are not amused.

3. It broke our nieghbor's bird feeder.

4.  The climb all over everything, leaving cat-prints everywhere.

5.  Our Deck is NOT a scratching post.

6.  My wife has cat allergies.  Even if we could stomach the stench of Cat Crap outside, the tuffs of Cat Fur sets of my wife's allergies.

7.  We planted a bunch of herbs.  They seem to have gotten between the cats and their crap-spots, so they tore them all out.

8.  Their is still the issue of Bird-Corpses in the yard. (I only put out the feeders now when I'm around).

So, we gave animal control a call.  They infomed us that cats that do this fall under the Pest/Vermin/Nuisance Category (much like Rats/Wasps, etc).  Moreover cats need to have a liscense in the city limits & proof they have all their shots.  Animal Control said they'd talk to the lady about her cats.

The response?

One cat does have a Cat Tag (Wether shots are up to date is another question).  The rest, she just 'adopted'. 

"Do they have their shots; like say RABIES Shot?"

"No"

"What about spayed/nuetered?"

"I don't know"

"We have recieved multpile complaints (True, our neighbor called as she has been driven from her flower garden due to the volume of cat crap in it).  Your cats are really causing a lot of problems for several people."

"Not my Problem.  Cats will be cats"

"We are going to have to set out traps, to try to catch these vermin"

"What Vermin?  These are MY Cats and you shouldn't go around trapping them!"

"We aren't setting out traps on your property, ma'am.  We setting them out on other people's property to catch whatever animal is causing the destruction to their property."

"Humph!"

That's basicly what Animal Control relied their conversation to us to be.  Told us they set the traps out once the temps got below 95 or so, so the animal wouldn't die of heat stroke.

Warned us they could only set out the traps for 3 days, do to the heavy demand for their services (Keep your cats Inside people).  They catch several THOUSAND Strays/Wild/just let loose cats every year.  (Town population under 8,000).

Day 1 (actually Day 10, darn Heat Wave).

Catch 1 of the cats first try (Orange Tabby that responsible for most of the fur/claw marks on the deck).

Animal Control come to pcik it up.  The thing is so wild and viscious they inform us they are going to have to take it back and 'Put it Down'.  It has a Flea Collar.  They tell us they'll try to contact the lady (as they HATE to do something to someone's pet).  But, that even if she wants to claim it, she'll have to apply for a City Tag & provide proof it's shots are up to date.  If she won't claim it, it's too wild and vicious to put up for adoption.

In effect.  We have a "Dead Cat Walking"  

I could tell it really got to the Animal Control Lady that she was going to (probablly) have to take this animal and kill it.  I think she was really, really, really, mad at whoever let it get to this stage.  "It's not the animal's fault, someone had to let it get this wild."


Now the reason for being ticked.  Animal Contol got one, so we go back to the bottom of the list (which due to continuing heat wave, massive numbers of people), means we might not see them back until October.

Now me and my wife are eating dinner.  As we get up to put the dishes in the sink...

One of that, umm, lady's, cats is taking a crap in our herb garden, ripping up basil as it does its business.

I rush out to run it off.  Good, it stinks to high heaven in our backyard.  We have a nice deck, but have not been able to enjoy it for 4 months.

This one would be the poop/bird killing/destroyer of plants one.  This is the one, that really, really, really needs to go away.

I've had it.

I've been nice.

I've been patient.

I've followed proper channels.

Proper Channels has done what they could.

The owner has basically said, bleep you.

I'm calling Animal Control on Monday to verify, but if the Cat is considered a Nuisance/Vermin (possibly worse, if it has no proof of Rabies Vaccine), I believe I can set out my own Live Animal Trap  & then just cart whatever I catch to the Pound.

I'm sure this is OK for those cats without tags (after fewer strays means less work for them).

It's the one she actually has Tags for I'm not sure about.  If that's the one we catch, do I have to let it go?  Throw it back over the fence?  Lug it to the Pound, so they can call her to get it out of the joint?

I thinkhow it works is:  I tell them I'm having problems with Vermin Animals & am going to set out a Trap.  They ask me some questions to make sure I'm setting the Trap up on my property.  They may have to come out to verify, that I am, indeed, setting it up in our yard.  They may also require that they come out in person to verify what we catch.

Despite how ticked off we are, me & my wife are still trying to do this the right way.

Visions of Cat-Poop Catapults (Hey, your cat left this over here, here it is back) and saucers of Anti-Freeze have crossed our minds more than once.  They first destruction of my wife's herb garden had her dwelling on not nice things (wehter to the cat or its owner) I'm not sure.

But it's getting to the point, we have to do something.  Due to a recent promotion at work & some other things, we are looking for a new house.

Care to take a guess how hard it is going to be to move a house where the yard reeks of cat poop, and little piles are sticking out here and there?

We are about to our wit's end.

The owner of the cats has made it very clear that she is in no way responsible for any of her cats actions in any way possible.  Thus, the responsibilty must fall to others.

Animal Control is doing what it can.  But it's only 2 people (really, they only have 2 employees) & they are overwhelmed as it is.

Thus, responsibility is left to those directly affected.  That means me, my wife, or the 75 year old widow next door.  Our other neighbor was so fed up she bought a dog & put up a fence.  (Again, wife's allergies prevent the dog option).

So, I guess, it's going to be "Here Kitty, Kitty" for me.


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## Harmon (Aug 12, 2006)

*Couple of thoughts (hoping to help)*

First off I recall the thread and as I did then express my concerns that you and yours are taken care of while maintaining the welfare of the animals.  I know you are mad and you have every right to be, the animals that are not your responsibility are making your life difficult.

Second- Pit Bulls aren’t dangerous by nature, they were bread to be killers yes, but there are more then a few that have not been.  Our family had an American Pit Bull that loved children (and I don’t mean with steak sauce, he loved to play with kids) for nearly fifteen years.  He was smart, a great guard dog, and never took a bite out of anyone.  Unlike a little terrier I recall from my youth, but that is another story, and a bit of a hijack to this thread.

Third (I think) I am a cat lover- well not a cat lover, but I have two cats that are my children and I love them as such.  It would just kill me to find out that one of my neighbors had killed one of my kids, and I know that I might seek some form of vengeance if something like that happened.  I have a cat that stays pretty close and another that ventures out a distance, I fear for them both but rather think its better for them to know what’s beyond the windows and doors then to live a long boring life inside wondering.

Next (I lost count) I do not believe that you would feel very good about killing the cats, you don’t seem like the type- though you might be happy for a time that they are dead, you might feel a bit to bad later and that would be bad for you.  Consider the trapping of said pests.

I know you like us all are more then likes strapped for coin and purchasing live traps and such seems really stupid but consider buying one, trapping the cats, then taking a picture of them, then return the cat to the owner- “I catch this cat again, and he’s going to the pound to be put down.”

Also consider taking all that cat crap- take pictures of it and the clean up, take some soil samples nearby, then take the cat crap to the owners house and deposit it on her porch.  Save the soil samples and the pictures for any future legal actions, inform the owner- “I just spend X number of hours cleaning up cat crap- your cat’s crap.  The next bag of this stuff that I clean up will be scattered about your yard and every bag there after.  I suggest that if you continue to let your cats be cats then you spend some time in my yard with some tools for clean up.”  Oh, and record all conversations, if you have a video camera that would be better- oh, and let her see it.

I Googled live cat traps and came up with a few sites with traps for sale, expensive but consider your future feelings and not the ones that come from anger now.

You are correct to feel this angry and I hope you see some logic in my thoughts and suggestions.  Please consider them before you do anything rash or out of anger.

Take care, and peace.


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## Vraille Darkfang (Aug 12, 2006)

Harmon said:
			
		

> First off I recall the thread and as I did then express my concerns that you and yours are taken care of while maintaining the welfare of the animals.  I know you are mad and you have every right to be, the animals that are not your responsibility are making your life difficult.




I have a friend with a Pit Bull.  Yes, they are can be a nice dog.  But they require a lot of training.  (She also has 2 dogs.  They often bark for hours at a time I have never seen her take them for a walk).

As for threats of violence.  They are just that.  I've had cats my entire life (up until I met my wife and her allergies).  I have been a responsible pet owner since I was 8.  It's not that hard.

As for the one cat winding up dead (I guess, Animal Control hasn't called us back).  They went to her door and told her "We are going to be setting out Live Animal Traps on this Person's Property, if we catch your animal in it, you will have to provide proof of Tags and Shots to get it back".

They told her to her face!  Point Blank, no nonsense.  "We have recieved multiple complaints of cats from your residence doing all sorts of property damage to neighbors.  We are going to see if it is true".

They told her "We are going to do this"  They did it.  The cat was running around and it got caught.  The thing that wasn't in the plan was the fact that the cat is half-feral & bites & claws anyone who gets near.  If she isn't willing to claim it (and pay for its Tags & Shots, then the animal is going to be destroyed).  (There isn't a no-kill shelter anywhere near here & I don't think they'd take a half-feral one anyway).

She was warned about her cats' actions by multple people.  She was warned by the Animal Control (a division of the Police around here).  I can't believe that she really cares all that much for her cats.

If a police official (they have a special police uniform) walks up to your door & tells you point blank.  "Your animals have been doing things they shouldn't, if you can't or won't control them we, the dully appointed and paid authorities, will have to enforce the local laws and take your animals away", shouldn't that get your attention?

I have no sympathy for this woman, or how she may feel about what happens when Kitty winds up in the pound on kitty death row.

I have sympathy for the cat.  It should not be in this posistion.  If she was a responsible pet owner it would never have gotten this far.

I'm even willing to give her the benefit of the doubt and say she 'adopted' some local strays.  But, all she did was feed them.  They are still wild, still not spayed/neutered (as the smell on my new car can attest), and not up to date on their shots.  They are still a hazard.

As for doing something really nasty (Anti-freeze reference).  That is merely fantasy.  We live in an area with quie a few small children (I can see them getting mauled).  Despite what dreams I may have, I'm not going to raise a hand in anger towards those cats.  The garden Hose in another story.

And, if you remember, I said her house fronts on a major truck route into town.  Last week when I was traveling down it, I saw a Cat get plowed into by a Semi going 55.  The cat did not survive.

Her cats are going to get run over.  I see at least 3-4 roadkills a month right along where she lives.  She's playing Road-kill Roullette with her cats lives.  They'll lose at some point.

If she really cares about those cats, she's got a wierd way of showing it.

Almost like an abusive husband who treats his wife like crap & then says he loves her.

She's got a wierd way of showing it.

PS.  All references to Traps refered to the Live-Catch kind.  The local Hardware store has a bunch (they're big sellers, go figure) for 30 bucks.  I'm going to make sure of the proper way of doing things.  If I have to wait 2 moths for Animal Control to show back up, that's fine.

Actually, I'll just get our neighbor (the 74 year old widow) to call in.  She's lived her entire life in the town & done all sorts of volunteer work for 50+ years.  They'll jump to help her out.  So, I'll just have to wait for the heat to break before more Traps (the live kind) are set out.


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## Ranger REG (Aug 12, 2006)

Vraille Darkfang said:
			
		

> Her reply "I can't control my Cats, they do what nature intended" (Thank god she doesn't raise Pit-Bulls).



"Then perhaps it's NOT your nature to keep them. Let the Humane Society deal with it, B****!"

At least that's what I would have said.


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## megamania (Aug 12, 2006)

Instead of the pound take them many miles away and let them be cats somewhere else.  If this many cats are in and out her basement, you may even wish to contact health services.   Her very basement / apartment may be "unfit" for living and that may place a new spin on her "cats are cats" when it gets her either expelled from her home or forces her money to fix the problem.


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## bodhi (Aug 12, 2006)

Vraille Darkfang said:
			
		

> If she really cares about those cats, she's got a wierd way of showing it.



A month or two ago, there was a woman on the news here (PDX metro area) who had multiple horses, underfed and unwell. She had apparently managed to acquire these over time, I forget the details. After she finally got reported, the authorities shut her down. I think all the horses got relocated to reputable farms and ranches. Anyhow, she was diagnosed with some kind of hoarding disorder, ala Crazy Ebay Mom. In addition to Animal Control, maybe you should give Social Services a call. The problem may be bigger than (semi)feral cats.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Aug 12, 2006)

I remember the original thread, and I'm sorry to hear that things haven't gotten better, and in fact, have deteriorated.

Man- you see stuff like this all the time on Animal Planet's Animal Cops and in the local news.

I agree that there may be more going on than this lady being dim- she may actually be mentally ill.  Give social services & your health department a call.  Better yet, write them a letter as well.  If you can, get other neighbors to sign it with you.

She may need more help than the cats she's "helping."

OTOH, she could legitimately not understand what she's doing.  I remember reading a column in a local newspaper reminding people that hummingbirds need high calorie foods to sustain their turbocharged metabolisms and that mixing DIET sodas into their feeders just starves them to death. :\


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## LightPhoenix (Aug 12, 2006)

I definitely thought of Animal Cops too.

If you and all the neighbors are feeling the same way, IANAL, but I'd investigate a class action lawsuit against your neighbor.

Also, don't discount the efficacy of multiple complaints.  If they have to keep coming down there every week, they'll eventually take action against the owner.


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## Mark Chance (Aug 12, 2006)

Catch the cats, but don't hurt them. Remove any tags from them and toss them in the trash. Take them to a shelter, the one farthest from where you live if your town has more than one. If asked about missing cats, say, "I took a stray to the shelter. Could that have been one of yours? Gee, I'm sorry." If asked what shelter, be honest and let the inquirer now.

People who can't take proper of animals have no business owning animals.


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## Aeolius (Aug 12, 2006)

Ever thought of investing in a dog?

   "What? Fido ripped your kitty to shreds? I can't control my dog, he does what nature intended."    

   A more humane solution might consist of motion-activated sprinklers or perhaps lining your fence with hotwire. 

   Granted, I live on a few acres and have my fair share of critters. Seeing the neighbor's dog or cat walking across the yard is commonplace. If their animals attacked mine, however, I'd have to get out the crossbow.


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## LightPhoenix (Aug 12, 2006)

Aeolius said:
			
		

> Ever thought of investing in a dog?
> 
> "What? Fido ripped your kitty to shreds? I can't control my dog, he does what nature intended."




Bad idea.  Not only will they take your dog, but you'll be fined a decent sum of money.


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## Mycanid (Aug 12, 2006)

Yeah ... I also love cats and it is hard for me whenever I see them in poor care. As for killing any ... I'd just go to pieces. When one of my cats was eaten a few years back I was bummed out for a week or so.

It's a difficult situation to be sure. I honestly don't know what I would do in your shoes. Perhaps calling animal control for what would be a good way to proceed OPTIONS wise might be a place to start rather than just calling em in straight out.

The poor woman sounds like she is also in need of help ... possibly even a very lonely lady. I feel sorry for the cats to be sure, but the poor people who live like that is also a very sad thing to see.


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## Aeolius (Aug 12, 2006)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Bad idea.  Not only will they take your dog, but you'll be fined a decent sum of money.




   Point taken. Best to use antifreeze, then. KIDDING!!  I would never condone the killing of innocent animals; probably best just to kill your  neighbor, then.


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## pogre (Aug 12, 2006)

Where I live, if an animal wanders onto another's property it generally is risking its life. As much from coyotes as farmers with guns.

I don't own a gun and neighbors' cats don't bother me - I appreciate them picking off the 13-stripe gophers. However, my neighbors *were* nice enough to ask if the cats were a bother.

I think you need to sue this woman for nuisance. I'm serious. IAAL


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## Ranger REG (Aug 12, 2006)

bodhi said:
			
		

> Anyhow, she was diagnosed with some kind of hoarding disorder,



At least I hoard only RPGs.


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## Roadkill101 (Aug 12, 2006)

Before trapping and turning in any animals to the animal shelter, you better check to see if there is a fee involved.  
I owned 2 cats a while back, male and female, neither were neutered and nature took it's course.  Finding a home for the kittens was easily enough taken care of, I ended up taking the adult female tro the shelter.  I was less than honest and claimed she was a stray who kept hanging around my house, I ended up having to pay a 50 dollar fee (maintaining she was a stray and a nuisance), for the shelter to take her off my hands.
So just catching these cats and trying to turn them over to Animal Control may cost more than investing in a BB gun and a night-time disposal drive.


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## Chimera (Aug 12, 2006)

1.  Check your local laws regarding animal licensing.  Check the penalties involved.  Some communities enact a fine for unlicensed animals.  If this is the case, start calling the police.

2.  City Inspectors.  If they have the run of the basement and are doing this much damage, then the house may be a garbage house or there may be other problems.

3.  Animal Control.  Yeah, it's a pain.

4.  Police complaints.  When I lived in Minneapolis, three complaints about a dog would bring a $75 fine.  A petition of neighbors would get it removed.

5.  Civil Lawsuit for the damages caused to your yard, denial of the use of your yard, risks to the health of your allergic wife, time and expenses of removing the feces.  Start collecting evidence, taking pictures, keeping receipts.  Get or borrow a video camera and start filming the action.  Then talk to an attorney.

6.  If you feel particularly nasty, after collecting the feces, throw them in her open basement window.  Or simply dump them in her yard - after all, they are HER responsibility in the first place.  Me, I'd be flicking them in the general direction of her yard each and every time I came across a pile.  Wet stuff will make a good impression on the side of her house or against a window!

7.  Water Hose, high pressure nozzle.  Spray the crap out of them with the hose each and every time that you see them in your yard.


DO NOT simply kill the cats.  You can be subject to criminal charges for animal cruelty and possibly other things as well.  Then YOU become the bad guy.


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## Vraille Darkfang (Aug 12, 2006)

Mycanid said:
			
		

> The poor woman sounds like she is also in need of help ... possibly even a very lonely lady. I feel sorry for the cats to be sure, but the poor people who live like that is also a very sad thing to see.




Some new info I just found out today.  Remember how ticked I said I was for the Craping last night?  Well, today we went out to go to the store.  The stench was so horrible my wife nearly vomited.  I had to pull the car to the front of the house.  I took the offending fecal matter and threw it over the fence into her yard.  She's been feeding them the really cheap dry cat food.  The type every source I have ever read has said to never, ever, ever, feed cats.

1. It makes their poop stink to high heaven

2. It's full of fillers their body can't digest, so they eat more & poop even more.

3. It's not well-balanced and can cause all sorts of health problems over time.


I realize people from all over the world read this forum, so I've tried to be polite.  I live in the Boothill of Missouri, probably the northern extent of the Deep South.

I do not want to use terms Rednecks, White Trash, Trailer Trash, etc due to the connotations that belongs to them, but I will do my best.

The house behind us is run down and owned by a land-lord who really doesn't care about it.  Do to the oreintation of the roads and nieghborhoods, it isn't even considered part of our block.

This lady and her husband (partner?, brother?) moved in around 6 months ago.  The previous tenant ran out before the bill collectors could show up.

I've lived my entire life in small farming communties.  I went to high school there.  I've seen her type many, many, many times before.

The phrase "Trailler Trash" or "Jerry Springer Guest" is often the exact phrase used.  But it's a lot more complicated than that.

Both she & the guy she lives work seem to have to work a lot of hours.  They have run-down cars that barely work.  The have low-skill, low-pay jobs someplace.  She appears to be in her 50's but I'd be surprised if she's over 40.  Chain smoking does nasty things to your body.  And your teeth (the 8-9 she actually still has).

She's not the sharpest tack in the drawer.  She's dumb as a rock actually.  I've tried to explain a few things (like say Rabies), but she just refuses to listen to some "guy who thinks he's so smart cause he's got a cushy job"

I wish to stress.  She, is, indeed uneducated.  That's not what I'm holding against her.  My Grandfather was a high school drop-out, Dave Thomas (founder of Wendy's was a Drop-Out).  Educated is not the same at stupid.  Some of the most intelligent people I know lack the formal education the our current society uses.  Her lack of basic education is self-inflicted (can't say about higher ed).  I went to school with people with her exact mind-set.  They could have gotten something out of high-school.  They choose to cut class & slip Vodka in Hair-Spray Bottles (true story).  If I found out I went to high school with her, I would not be surprised.  I've seen this over.  and over.  and over.  and over.

There is a particular strain of stupidity and stuborness that seems to arise from certain people living below the mason-dixon line.  Jeff Foxworthy, Larry the Cable Guy, the other Blue-Collar, Southern Comedians have made a fortune off of it.

Jeff has a story about how two guys ran over a beaver with their truck.  They stopped the truck & got out to see what sort of shape the beaver was in (they wanted to stuff it).  When the one guy lifted the beaver up & shock it to get the dust off the dead beaver, they found out the beaver, was, in fact, not dead, but merely stunned.  The beaver won initiative & crit'd by biting the guy's nipple off.  I repeat, this guy managed to get his nipple bitten off by a beaver.

In high school, a jock & his buddy nearly got themselves killed.  They were driving along in his new pick-up truck, enjoying their beers.  They saw a cat cross the road & though it would be a hoot to run it over.  Well, the cat was nearly across the road, but the truck had 4-wheel drive, so they chased it into the grass along the side of the road.  The problem was the lack of the side of the road.  The high grass was just covering the irrigation ditch that really formed the side of the road.  The truck flipped 3 times.  Multiple broken bones due to lack of seat belts.  Beer over everything.  Oh, yeah, the guy riding shot-gun got shot in the thigh.  The fully-loaded rifle (safety off) fell out of the gun rack & went off.

Friend had his Uncle shoot a 6 point buck.  From his Toilet.  He was taking a crap and saw a 6 point buck through the bathroom window.  So he took the rifle that he kept next to the toilet (I don't know why, but they guy kept a fully loaded rifle next to the plunger).  From a seated position, he fired through the window of his double-wide and dropped the deer.  The bullet went through the deer and on into his truck, severing the AC Coolant hose.  But, he was so thrilled to get the deer, he ran outside au natural (neglecting to even do TP duty) to begin dressing the deer so he could get the head mounted.

Or the local guy who smelled rotten-egg smell coming from his basement, so he lit his lighter to go see if something died by his NATURAL GAS water heater or Furnace.  He, amazingly, survived.

This lady is of that school.  A combination of brains of a chicken with the will of a camel, that leads to people around here spray painting C-O-W in bright orange letters on their cattle every year.  They've begun to have to paint G-O-A-T on their goats.

This woman is not lonely.  She has a human partner living with her.  2 Dogs, 1 Cat (with Tags) and 3-4 without.  She's just too darn stubborn to take the advice Animal Control gave her (namely, if you don't want to get the shots/tags for these animals that the local laws spell out, you need to find a home for them that will.  Because, right now, you are in conflict with some people around and the laws are pretty specific.  Cats without tags are Vermin and Vermin are taken away. Cats without proof of shots can harbor all sorts of diseases, including the potentially fatal Rabies (we do have raccoons, known Rabies carriers, around).

Animal Control was very polite.  They tried to tell her the correct way of doing things & potential consequences of refusal, from Rabies and other Diseases and capture and disposal of her cats.

She basically didn't even have to remove the cigarette from her lips to tell Animal Control to shove it.  (AC said she was "Less than Cooperative").

She's made her bed.  Now her cats are being forced to lay in it.

I would love to give her the benefit of the doubt.  That she has some undiagnosed mental disorder for which she needs treatment.  Some reason why.  I'd love to think that people who are like her, just have not found the "Right Thing"  That, somehow they's see the light and realize that they've really managed to do a number with their life and really need to try to get it on the right track.  I'd like to think that is what she's doing right now.

Then again.  Sometimes a Jerk is just a Jerk beacuse they LIKE being a Jerk.

Experience has taught me which one is the safe bet.


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## trancejeremy (Aug 12, 2006)

megamania said:
			
		

> Instead of the pound take them many miles away and let them be cats somewhere else.  If this many cats are in and out her basement, you may even wish to contact health services.   Her very basement / apartment may be "unfit" for living and that may place a new spin on her "cats are cats" when it gets her either expelled from her home or forces her money to fix the problem.




Don't do that - that either basically is killing the cat (since a lot of them simply aren't good at living in the wild), or simply moving the problem onto someone else like me, who has had a number of unwanted cats dumped where I live.

Might find someone that wants a cat (and will keep it indoors), then kidnap one of hers.


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## Mycanid (Aug 12, 2006)

Well then Vraille ... I must admit that your description makes me fell even more sorry for her in a certain way.

I'm not "disagreeing" with you - I also think it's a gross situation, and I honestly do not know what I would do if I were in your shoes.

I hope things become better for you and your wife soon. Take steps, just do not lose your cool (easy to say this, of course - I know all too well about getting so angry one goes temporarily blind) and let that be a further excuse for either her making the situation worse or your totally losing what inner peace and quiet you have left. Others have given good suggestions. But don't expect them to change overnight - of course if they do that would be nice too....

I think others have said the same thing in here and those you are around. But I know it can sometimes help to vent too.


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## HeavenShallBurn (Aug 13, 2006)

Can't really add much to what's already been said.  But basically I figure your options depend on just where you live.  Are you actually inside a town, in the outskirts, countryside?  I basically live out on farmland with no close neighbors and so I welcome cats to keep the groundsquirrels and birds in line, besides with coyotes and roaming dogs to worry about they don't really pile up like that.  But my answer would definitely be the shotgun.  Unfortunately I'm fairly certain that would'nt work from the way you talk about where you live.  Try a BB gun they're much quieter and you'd be surprised what neighbors will ignore especially if they're agravated too.  In our county at least laws basically say you're free to kill nuisance animals if they're on your property.


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## Aeolius (Aug 13, 2006)

I am reminded of a poem I wrote, years ago, as part of a "rapid-fire poetry by e-mail experiment": 

In a dream I solved the plight,
Of finding food for man.
An answer came unto the night,
A simple twofold plan.

The homeless and downtrodden,
Deserve a hardy meal.
And we have not forgotten,
The way the hunger feels.

And then I look upon the pound,
Of cats and dogs forsaken.
So simple and yet so profound,
The course my plan has taken.

Its seems absurd to spend the time,
And waste taxpayers' dollars,
To advertise the lost canine,
On billboards, news, and collars.

And so I take example,
From those who make the treats,
I take a spoonful sample,
And find the rendered meat.

We feed the dogs to other dogs,
And yet discuss it little.
And yet man dines on cows and hogs,
While overlooking kibble.

So make a meal of Pekinese,
Of Manx, or Himalayan.
We'll honor them within our feed,
Is all that I am sayin'.

And should they mind the terrier,
Or turn their nose to poodles,
I ask you which is scarier,
To find within your noodles.

Swallow pride and open up,
It's not that strange a diet.
To serve a kitten or a pup,
To keep the hungered quiet.

Keep the billboards free of pets;
Let man adopt his kin.
Of spay and neuter lets forget,
And let the meal begin!


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## Umbran (Aug 13, 2006)

I think you're basically on the right track. 

If this woman is allowing these cats to roam the neighborhood without so much as a confirmed rabies shot, she doesn't deserve to have the pets.  She's not doing them any favors allowing them to live in such a manner.

Buy or rent yourself a decent live trap.  Make sure you talk to Animal Control to confirm that your setup is legal and humane.  When you catch a cat, take it to the local animal shelter.  Do be sure that you don't let them sit in the trap unattended for very long.

If you want to feel good about yourself, look into "no kill" shelters in your area.  For a fee, they'll take in an animal, and try to adopt it out.  But they will not euthanize a healthy animal if they can't find it a home.


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## CarlZog (Aug 13, 2006)

I think your situation may be the perfect test application for this


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## Blood Jester (Aug 13, 2006)

Harmon said:
			
		

> ...I have a cat that stays pretty close and another that ventures out a distance, I fear for them both but rather think its better for them to know what’s beyond the windows and doors then to live a long boring life inside wondering...




This is actually one of the biggest misconceptions about cats.
They are domesticated animals, and they _love_ the creature comforts of home.
An open (screened) window gives them all of the outdoors they need.  (Think kitty TV.)
On average, indoors-only cats live twice as long as outdoors cats, suffer *way* fewer illnesses, virtually zero parasites, and remain active (if given attention and play-time with their owners) for virtually their entire lives.

Now for my personal take.
I have always adopted strays, but one of my cats was abandoned young, and spent his first year and a half outdoors as a stray before I was able to bring him in.
He loves to look out the windows, but *never* tries to get out.
I once didn't see him near the door, and had the door open wide as I carried in two armloads of groceries.
You know what he did?  He sat there and watched me.  When I noticed him, he was literally sitting, watching what I was doing, with a clear line to the outside.
After experiencing the outdoors, and indoor life, he had *zero* interest in "getting out".  He knew how good his life was, and wouldn't trade it for the (outside) world.

I even tried taking him out on a leash to roam his old stomping grounds outside our apartment.   I had to carry him out, and as soon as he was set down, he turned into a rock, and would not move away from the door.  When I opened it, he shot back inside.


So yes, cats are curious creatures, and want to know what is on the other side of a door, any door.
But you can get the same reaction by closing them out of a room in the house for a couple of days.  As soon as you open the door they will explore that room like it was a new world.


So please, for your cats' well-being, if you love them, keep them indoors.


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## Dragonbait (Aug 13, 2006)

As a side note to the *Vraille Darkfang* and anyone else who owns a cat: If you and your wife intend to have a child, she should not go into the back yard. Pregnant women, and people with weak immune systems, are susceptable to a disease that can be found in cat droppings and urine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxoplasmosis


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## Harmon (Aug 13, 2006)

Okay, I hear you Vraille.   :\   

The wife suggested something when I told her of your plight- chicken wire in the garden, cut it in half, then cut half circles in the edges, bury about a quarter or half an inch and let the cats try to dig through that.  She said that they would not, though they might try for a time.



Jester, realize that in door cats live longer, I really do, I have had more then a few that have passed before their time.  I love my cats as much as I love my daughter- why?  My wife and I were pretty certain that we could not have children so our cats became our children.  

I do not want my cats to ever have wondered "whats beyond that fence?"  While one will (she is not physically able to jump a fence) not know, she seems content to go into the backyard and sun herself.  The other one (Myth) I have seen as much as a mile from our home, it scares the hell out of me to know that he is out there, and I can't tell him to cross the street when no cars are coming, to look both ways, etc.  but that is how he and I want it.  I want him to see the world that he can see and explore, and he wants to explore it. 

I get that you will more then likely not agree, I know at least one person that would agree with you and say "see- listen to this guy, he has a good argument," but I can't watch someone that I love wonder, and want and not give or help them to see the wonders they are missing.  And I know one day one or both of them will not return and I will be completely heart broken but I will know that I did not raise a cat that wondered but a cat that found the wonder.

Peace all. 

V- hope you find the way to handle this- you seem to have it in hand and have a good heart, so take care.


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## Umbran (Aug 13, 2006)

Harmon said:
			
		

> I do not want my cats to ever have wondered "whats beyond that fence?"




You should perhaps remember that your cat is not a human being, and probably doesn't think about what's beyond the fence in the same way you do.  Please consider that you may be projecting your desires onto your animal, and reading his behaviors as they might be for you, rather than for him.

What's beyond the fence?  Feline leukemia, Feline Immunodeficiency Virus, fast cars, rabies, dogs, ter cats, coyotes, raccoons and other dangerous wildlife, vicious and heartless humans, antifreeze, tapeworms, roundworms, ringworms, fleas, ticks, various infectious diseases, and so on.

Indoor cats are, admittedly, slightly more prone to obesity then their outdoor counterparts.

I don't have a citation, but the last study my wife (a veterinarian) can recall (which is admittedly several years old at this point), indoor cats didn't live twice as long as outdoor cats.  An indoor cat had an average life expectency of 15 or so years.  Outdoor cats had an "ownership span" of about three years.  Meaning that on average, the average owner of an outdoor can would expect the cat to be permanently gone (for whatever reason - dead or lost) within three years.  This is, of course, an average, and doesn't tell you everything.  I myself have had outdoor cats that lived decently long lives. 



> I want him to see the world that he can see and explore, and he wants to explore it.




With a little forethought, the indoor environment can remain an interesting place for a cat to explore without the risks.  Enrichment isn't that much a chore - and it gives you new ways to play, interact with and care for your animal that you didn't have before.  

None of this is to berate you.  It is merely to give you information and perspective.  The people who know feline behavior best say that the indoors can be just as fulfilling as the outdoors.  If that's true, why take the risks?


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## frankthedm (Aug 13, 2006)

Umbran said:
			
		

> Indoor cats are, admittedly, slightly more prone to obesity then their outdoor counterparts.



Slightly...











I am all for letting the cat out, though if i really like a cat, i keep it in a lot more often. Of course, if you let it out, you have to accept the chance it might not come back.


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## Harmon (Aug 13, 2006)

Umbran said:
			
		

> None of this is to berate you.  It is merely to give you information and perspective.  The people who know feline behavior best say that the indoors can be just as fulfilling as the outdoors.  If that's true, why take the risks?




I copy all of that.  Though I disagree on the human to cat perspective.  Cats are adventurous, explorer's, etc. (I realize you more then likes know this).  When I see Myth sitting at the door wanting to go out he will go out about 20% of the time (I rarely "throw" him or his "sister" out).  It is their choice when I open the door.

When I call them in they are generally close enough to hear and come running.  

As far as the age goes I would love to have out door cats like my wife has had in her youth (15-18 year range with one coming close to 20 before they put him to sleep), but I have not- of the four cats I have had one died from stomach cancer (actually put to sleep because it was caught in the to late to do anything stage) and another to a heart defect (CPR on cats is something every cat person should learn before you have to learn it in the heat of the moment), both I was present for their passing.  

I have had to many things happen in my life- to many things I regret, I know that I will hate myself for letting them out and having them die or just disappear (which would be far worse), but in my mind and in my heart I know that they want to explore and I will regret not allowing that more.  I thank you for your stats and such, but I have to offer and I have to let them know that they can go if they want.  

Sorry about the hyjack


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## Ranger REG (Aug 14, 2006)

Meh. I'm a dog fan. The day I like cats is the day they can fetch my slippers and catch a flying frisbee.


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## WayneLigon (Aug 14, 2006)

Sounds like you're doing waht you need to be doing. Check out the legality of traps on your property, and go with that, I'm thinking. If it wanders onto your property, it's probably fair game if they've already classified the cats as vermin. Some catnip should probably get them in the trap, too.


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## Paladin (Aug 14, 2006)

Vraille Darkfang said:
			
		

> 1.  It smells like a dirty litterbox in our yard.  We can not even open our windows.  My wife filled SIX!!!!!!!!! Wal-Mart sacks full of Cat Crap just along 1 side of our house the other day.



*Takes off paladin outfit, dons blackguard garb* She obviously has zero regard for your property or well-being. I say turnabout is fair play. Does she leave her car doors unlocked? If so, it's hypothetically possible that SOMEONE, at the height of the heat wave, COULD deposit all six bags of "nature's joy" under the seats of her car. After all, since it came from her cats, that person would simply be returning her property...hypothetically speaking of course.



			
				Vraille Darkfang said:
			
		

> So, we gave animal control a call.  They infomed us that cats that do this fall under the Pest/Vermin/Nuisance Category (much like Rats/Wasps, etc).
> 
> I'm calling Animal Control on Monday to verify, but if the Cat is considered a Nuisance/Vermin (possibly worse, if it has no proof of Rabies Vaccine), I believe I can set out my own Live Animal Trap  & then just cart whatever I catch to the Pound.



IANAL, but it is my belief that there are no laws protecting vermin since they're, you know, vermin. Generally speaking, you can kill vermin by any manner that would not endanger humans or the surrounding area. If that's poison, arrows, 2x4s with nails dipped in the cat's own feces carefully camoflauged in the torn-up flower beds, or someone practicing the "hammer toss", I don't think the police can really do much. Also, cats really don't like being pepper sprayed. Nope, not even a little. *carefully places blackguard garb back in storage, re-dons paladin outfit* Not that I would ever endorse these things. They would be wrong...granted, not as wrong as someone abetting wild animals to destroy someone else's property...


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## Numion (Aug 14, 2006)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> Sounds like you're doing waht you need to be doing. Check out the legality of traps on your property, and go with that, I'm thinking. If it wanders onto your property, it's probably fair game if they've already classified the cats as vermin. Some catnip should probably get them in the trap, too.




He should be careful .. after all, he's probably a commoner and we all know how though  housecats are   

That makes traps all the more appropriate.


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## Nyaricus (Aug 14, 2006)

Vraille, you should bag the catshit and then dump it on her doorstep. Take a shovel to spread evenly. That is simply intolerable.

Also, definitly get a trap and ask the animal cops if it's legal, etc. That would help as well, I am sure.

Hope this works out


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## Zander (Aug 14, 2006)

Shotgun!

If that doesn't appeal, try spreading orange peel around your garden. It smells nice to people but not to cats. They can't stand it.

If you use big pieces, it makes it easy to collect and replace when it gets old.


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## Metus (Aug 14, 2006)

I'm a vegetarian and an animal rights activist, yet that story you told enrages even me.  Those cats need to be taken away to the animal shelter (or pound, as in the south) so that they do not breed and make even more cats.  Just capture them and take them to the shelter.

As for the woman, she needs to be taken out back behind the chemical shed and shot.


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## Tiew (Aug 14, 2006)

My grandfather owns a large chunk of land up in Virginia. Back in the day he used to farm sheep on it. One of his neighbors had this big black dog that she let run wild. The dog would do things like take people chickens and carry them back to her. It also would lead packs of dogs, both wild and owned by neighbors, in attacking his sheep and killing some of them on a regular basis. One time he fired a shotgun loaded with birdshot into the middle of the pack to sting them a bit. They still came back the next day.

Now, before he switched for farming my grandfather worked in a steel mill. He hated it so much that every weekend he'd buy a brick of .22 rounds and shoot them off the relieve his stress. So one day when he had his sheep locked in his barn the pack ran around trying to break in and generally driving the sheep crazy. So my grandfather shot the leader of the pack in the ear. He managed to make it back home before he died. Since the bullet had gone in the dogs ear there wasn't a mark. The vet knew my grandfather so he covered for him and his neighbor never realized her dog had been shot.

I think my grandfather felt a bit bad about doing this. To this day he still claims he fired over the dog's head and it looked up at the last second.

Now this story doesn't totally apply to your situation. My grandfather was a poor man with a large family who's way of feeding that family was in danger. I'm just telling this to illustrate that we aren't many generations removed from people who were fine with killing things to protect their property. If you turn a pet over to an animal shelter and it gets put down I wouldn't feel bad. You're still being much more civilized than people used to be or many people would be in your situation.


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## waterdhavian (Aug 14, 2006)

I'm suprised that the cops havent done something about this.  Look into city ordinances and regulations.  She should be getting fines for all of what you said.  Have your neighbors call the police every time the cats destroy property.  The police will look into the matter when you have several people upset about it.

I understand that your towns Animal control is made up of only two people.  Perhaps by calling a neighboring town or major city you can get some assitance.  Even try calling the States Animal control or humane societies.  Look into national or atleast nationally spread out groups that help combat animal abuse.  I am sure if they investigate this matter they will take away all her animals, its one thing to have barn cats if you live in a rural area and have a barn, and the need to keep other vermin away, but having feral cats killing birds and small animals in a more populated area could spread disease quickly. 

Try this group out they may be able to help or suggest options
http://www.hsus.org/


And nearly every state has their own groups, look into them and you will not only be calling in more help but also the thunder.  Some of these Animal Rescue groups can and will use legal means to take away animals and fine owners, they may even have this lady jailed if she is found to be abusing animals, I am sure this woman has more cats in her home and not all are being cared for.


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## Simplicity (Aug 14, 2006)

Okay so now that you've gotten the HELPFUL suggestions out of the way, how about some unhelpful but more entertaining ones?

Suggestion 1:
Only one thing can save you now: ROBOSAPIEN.
Give that cat a chance to "drop the kids off", and then hit the ROAR button.  The cat won't come back as long as he can see Mr. Robot standing guard in your yard.
Or, put Robosapien in GUARD mode to automatically go off when a cat drops by.  Maybe he'll be the world's first robotic scarecat.

Suggestion 2:
If you fear that Robosapien might override it's programming and violate the fourth law of robotics (don't bowl using cats), you could try catching the cats with a live-trap.  And then dying them a variety of colors.  It'll make them easier to see.  And, it's fun for the whole family.  Heck, once Fluffy is a neon green, you may find him much more loveable.

Suggestion 3:
Cats make GREAT gift baskets!  Especially for neighbors who don't get the point.  All you need is a wicker basket, some cellophane wrapping paper, a big ribbon, and one very angry cat.  Once you make your neighbor your friend, she'll be much more receptive to your suggestions about animal care.

Suggestion 4:
Duct tape.  Lay it out sticky side up on the top of the fence separating you from your neighbor.  Be sure to staple, nail or tape the duct tape down.  Next time a cat tries coming over the fence...  You get to watch the cat do a little foot dance.  

Suggestion 5:
Snakes will be snakes.  You can't help it if a snake were to somehow wind up in your neighbor's basement.  That's what she gets for leaving the window open all the time...


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## Aeolius (Aug 14, 2006)

Simplicity said:
			
		

> you could try catching the cats with a live-trap.  And then dying them a variety of colors.




Now THIS one I like, so long as you also douse the cat with 4 gallons of cheap perfume.


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## Vraille Darkfang (Aug 14, 2006)

And now....

It is now WAR!

And the enemy has experienced its first casualty.  (Our side has been restricted to various aerial scouts).

The orange cat is now dead.  Animal Control took it to 8 different houses (including the lady whose basement it always runs into when we chase it off).  No one claimed it (in fact, that lady and her husband never even came too the door; despite having lights on & both cars in the yard; yes, they park in their yard).

The cat was too wild to even touch.  It was vicious and tried to claw and bite everything, including other cats.  In effect, they were left with no option but to put it down.  The lady at Animal Control even made a 2nd attempt at the various houses to find an owner.  No luck.

Cats that wild are impossible to put up for adoption, thus the cat was destroyed on Friday.

The cat is gone.  I'm relieved.  I'm sad a potential loving pet was turned into a dangerous menace.  But, things are better with it gone.

As for the other cat (the one that's the biggest menace), it has declared total war upon us.  It has begun to crap openly (not even trying to bury it), it is marking every available surface.  It has finally had enough & is going to drive us out of his 'territory'.  He has resorted to Chemical Warfare (Big pile of Cat Crap right in front of our back door; it was returned-thrown in front of his 'door'; woman's open basement window).

We are, at present, observing a cease-fire, waiting on Official Aid.  Said aid was to come in the form of Animal Control setting the Live-Catch Cage on Friday.

This never occurred.

On Friday, around noon or so a three year old girl was attacked and mauled by a cat.  She described it to her parents as 'Slobbery'.  Rabies was the parents' first thought.  Animal Control, aided by police, was brought in to try to find this animal.  It was found.  It appeared rapid & was put (via a police issue .38) down.  The little girl is undergoing treatment pending test results on the corpse.

This was in a suburban neighborhood.  Much like the very one in which we live.  The cat even had a flea collar (though no tags).  Our town's small enough that the cat's (and whatever bit it, raccoon most likely) range could have easily included our back yard.

Thank god, this girl told her parents the cat was 'slobbery', and that they recognized how serious it could (and was) be.  A real tragedy was potentially avoided this weekend.

I'm not holding Animal Control responsible for not putting the Trap back out.  They had more important things to worry about.  Moreover, they are getting serious about nailing strays.

Our cat enemy will be caught (there is a girl about the same age as the victim three doors down).  The lady with Animal Control has had it with people refusing to get their cats shots.

"If it doesn't have tags, it doesn't have shots.  If it doesn't have shots, we're taking it in.  If it is too wild to handle, we will be forced to destroy it".  I'm pretty sure that when they catch this cat, it's going to be too wild to tame and no one is going to answer the door at the house it hides in.

Hell, if they could prove she's letting them live there, they might  try to charge her with having an animal without a license.  But it's hard to prove, and just is a real mess, unless you got some sort of extenuating circumstance (say digital pictures or a rapid cat).

I'll be content with this cat going bye-bye.

So let me say this so it's very understandable:


GET YOUR CATS ITS SHOTS!!!!!!!  


PS.  The cat she actually HAS a tag for, we have not seen since Animal Control told her they were putting out traps.  Funny little coincidence, ain't it?


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## Nyaricus (Aug 14, 2006)

Yikes, that is terrible with that young girl, and uckily her parents were not the... ill-educated "brains of a chicken will of a camel"-type inhabiting your neighborhood. I she's okay 

ANd good news on the 1 cat being gone for sure, and the next nuisanace on it's way


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## Jdvn1 (Aug 14, 2006)

Vraille Darkfang said:
			
		

> And the enemy has experienced its first casualty.  (Our side has been restricted to various aerial scouts).



You should put cat icons on the back of your car for each cat taken down.


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## Wystan (Aug 15, 2006)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> You should put cat icons on the back of your car for each cat taken down.




That is an evil thought... CompUSA sells printable magnets.


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## Jdvn1 (Aug 15, 2006)

Wystan said:
			
		

> That is an evil thought... CompUSA sells printable magnets.



 Makes me want to get PC icons for every PC I kill as a GM...


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## kenobi65 (Aug 15, 2006)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Makes me want to get PC icons for every PC I kill as a GM...




There was a guy I once had for a DM in a Living City game at GenCon, some years ago, whose DM screen was hand-made, and covered with little stick-figures, each one depicting a PC death under his watch (and the litttle stick-figures each conveyed the manner of death, some with their heads cut off, others on fire, etc., along with the date of death).


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## buzzard (Aug 15, 2006)

kenobi65 said:
			
		

> There was a guy I once had for a DM in a Living City game at GenCon, some years ago, whose DM screen was hand-made, and covered with little stick-figures, each one depicting a PC death under his watch (and the litttle stick-figures each conveyed the manner of death, some with their heads cut off, others on fire, etc., along with the date of death).





We have a judge who does all the local cons here who had T-shirts printed up. 

"I was killed by Weeda the Evil and all I got was this T-shirt"

buzzard


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## megamania (Aug 19, 2006)

The more I read this the worse I feel for you.


Though the duct tape on the fence did bring a smile to me.........  


If it is just a thing of proving the cats use her basement then would a motion sensitive camera aimed at the window work?


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## Dannyalcatraz (Aug 19, 2006)

I had a couple of bonsai trees that got attacked by squirrels.  After one of the trees died, I covered the other one in red pepper.

That did the trick...but the tree died anyway- its injuries were too severe.

You might invest in a great deal of red pepper to sprinkle around your property line and/or your flower beds.

It won't harm your plants, but it should irritate the kitties' noses and eyes...and digestive tracts (after they start grooming themselves.  It may just drive them off.


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## griff_goodbeard (Aug 19, 2006)

Dannyalcatraz said:
			
		

> I had a couple of bonsai trees that got attacked by squirrels.  After one of the trees died, I covered the other one in red pepper.
> 
> That did the trick...but the tree died anyway- its injuries were too severe.
> 
> ...




Your just get yourself a pellet gun.


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## Bryon_Soulweaver (Aug 19, 2006)

Good thing I dont live next door to that woman. It would go something like this.




Me: "No ma'am, I haven't seen your cats lately. Do you need help looking for them?"
Woman: "No, they should come around soon. Thank you though."
Me: "Alright. I'll call you if I see them."
Brother in the background: "Brian, get your ass back here and help me cook these!"

Of course, Vraille, that'd happen after a week or so of what you went through.


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## Vraille Darkfang (Aug 19, 2006)

Ok,  Some Quick Updates.

1.  The Deal with the Rabid Cat.  The story had gotten a little blown out of proportion by the time I heard it.  A feral cat did scratch a little girl.  There was the possibility that the cat was rabid.  A Police Office (or another case) spotted the cat, but had no way to catch it safely.  He managed to corner it & was prepared to shoot it, but Animal Control got there before that had to happen.  The cat was caught & put down.

Tests showed it was negative for Rabies (it had a bunch of bacterial infections that caused its slavia glands to work overtime).  It had Fleas & Ticks (the flea collar on it was over a year old), tapeworms, mange and some oozing sores.  It's claws had amounts of Fecal Matter and Dried Blood.  The little girl was put on antibiotics as a precaution. 

2.  We are still dealing with the other 2 cats.

The Bad News:  Animal Control's Policy is only to set out traps for 3 days before you move to the bottom of the (very long) list.

More Bad News:  Our yard reeks of Cat Crap so bad that we can't even go outside.

The Good News:  The Animal Control Lady had to go out to Cat Crap Central to set the Trap.  She Used a Mask to try to block out the smell.  Thus, we are dealing with a Public Health Issue (as she put it), not a Stray Animal Problem.  Thus, there is no limit on how long it takes to capture them.  (She also understands why we are so ticked off too).

More Good News.  If it can be proven that she is feeding/caring for the animals (which is pretty hard to PROVE to the degree a judge would need it to be), she is the one responsible for the health hazard that is our backyard.  (I find the idea of Community service cleaning up crap all over the town ironic).  We'll try to get pics of the cats taking dumps in our yard & hiding in the lady's basement.  Who knows, I might get lucky and the cops will take the source of my problem (the irresponsible pet owner) away.


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## Nellisir (Aug 20, 2006)

A few thoughts:
1 - I've lived in the country and in the city.  I've had outdoor cats and (have) indoor cats.  My current cats have, minus trips to the vets and one 10 minute escape, been outside a total of about 2 hours in their 8 year lives.

2 - diet food.  Nuff said.

3 - Neighbors where I grew up had two dogs they let run loose.  Over the years the dogs killed our rabbits, chickens, and a neighbor's geese.  We're pretty sure they were also running deer, which is illegal in New Hampshire.  This escalated until another neighbor's three-year old German Shepherd was found dead in our field.

A week later, someone shot both dogs.

No one but the owners were sorry.

4 - I think you're obviously on the right track.  The woman is housing feral animals.  She has a blatant disregard for their health, wellbeing, and actions.  She takes no responsibility for their actions, and thus, IMO, forfeits any right to their possesion.  "cats will be cats" is exactly the same arguement our dog-owning neighbor used (except it was "dogs will be dogs", of course).  You are not responsible for the health and care of her animals.  Spend $30 and get your own trap.  If the local shelter charges for strays, drop them off at night (ordinarily, I would NEVER recommend this), and make lots of donations at Christmas to make up for it.  PHOTOGRAPH EVERYTHING!  My wife and I just spent $700 for a digital camera -- best money I may have ever spent.  Unlimited pictures, almost no ongoing cost.  Photo her basement window, cats, cat waste, damage -- if possible, get testimonial from animal control, health officers, and anyone else official.

And then, if you really wanna play hardball, sue her.

5 - On a lighter, fantasy note -- I've got a dog that comes with a no-cat-comes-back guarantee (my cats survive by moving slow -- really.)  She doesn't bark, she doesn't growl, she doesn't warn - she goes from 0 to 60 in the shake of a cat's tail, and can scale a 6' fence - which ain't bad for a dog that only stands 18" at the shoulder.


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## Captain Howdy (Aug 20, 2006)

Cat food and anti-freeze. Do what must be done.


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## Oscaron (Aug 20, 2006)

Vraille Darkfang said:
			
		

> *snip*...  It was found.  It appeared rapid & was put (via a police issue .38) down.
> *snip* But it's hard to prove, and just is a real mess, unless you got some sort of extenuating circumstance (say digital pictures or a rapid cat).





Even scarier.  You seem to have at least a 3rd Level Wiz, Sor or Bard making those cats Rapid!!

*hangs head in shame*

Osc


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Aug 21, 2006)

Oscaron said:
			
		

> Even scarier.  You seem to have at least a 3rd Level Wiz, Sor or Bard making those cats Rapid!!
> 
> *hangs head in shame*



Quite possibly _expeditious retreat_! Could be 5th-level Wiz with _haste_, it makes all movement modes rapid! *cough*


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## Tiberius (Aug 21, 2006)

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> Quite possibly _expeditious retreat_! Could be 5th-level Wiz with _haste_, it makes all movement modes rapid! *cough*




At least we're in the 3.5 era.  If those cats were operating under 3.0 Haste, I shudder to think of the damage they could inflict on your local NPC-classed neighbors.


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## Oscaron (Aug 21, 2006)

Which also shows their malevolence.
All that speed and they purposely slow down to make their 'deposits'.

Forget the red pepper and orange peels.  I'm recommending Holy Water!

Osc


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## werk (Aug 21, 2006)

As a cat owner, I hope I can state the following without drawing ire.

Find a 'lab animal' center near you.  They usually pay for cats (~$15) for dissection or lab use.
Buy a live trap.
(something something)
Profit!

That what we did when I was a kid.  Feral cats are a real problem.  Pets, not a problem at all if the owner keeps them as pets, rather than housing ferals.

EDIT: A friend here recommended doing the same as we do with black bears.  Get an electric fence (bear strength, not wimpy cow strength) and run it like 8" off the ground around your yard.  Then take foil and put tuna in the foil packets and hang them every so often on the wire.  Turn on and watch the festivities!  The tuna packets makes sure they investigate the fence and get shocked royal.  After that, they should leave your house and yard alone.  Only a partial fix, but better than nothing, and well within your legal rights.


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## kenobi65 (Aug 21, 2006)

werk said:
			
		

> EDIT: A friend here recommended doing the same as we do with black bears.




You've got a black bear problem?  In Madison??  Boy, things have gotten even weirder since I went to school there...


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## werk (Aug 21, 2006)

kenobi65 said:
			
		

> You've got a black bear problem?  In Madison??  Boy, things have gotten even weirder since I went to school there...




Upstate Jersey is where I battled the bears, Sussex county.  I think the nearest town was Newton.  My friend is still back there...up there...in Jersey.

Very large camp with stinky dumpsters + thousands of displaced bears = creative fun.

That 'bear deterrant system' is still in use today!  It works a little too well, getting most any kind of animal interested in tuna cans, and your occasional kitchen staffer or waste disposal technician.


I'm pretty sure we have black bears in Wisconsin too, just not in Madison


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## Umbran (Aug 22, 2006)

Captain Howdy said:
			
		

> Cat food and anti-freeze. Do what must be done.





This is not funny.  Death by antifreeze is slow and painful.  

This has gone beyond suggestions to help solve a problem, and has gotten too far into joking that causing suffering is acceptable.  If you want to talk about that sort of thing, please do it elsewhere.


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## Oscaron (Aug 23, 2006)

Umbran said:
			
		

> This is not funny.  Death by antifreeze is slow and painful.
> 
> This has gone beyond suggestions to help solve a problem, and has gotten too far into joking that causing suffering is acceptable.  If you want to talk about that sort of thing, please do it elsewhere.




Agreed.

Disturbing story sblock-ed:

[sblock]
I rented a room at a house with a couple of complete idiots who left out some anti-freeze and their cat got into it.

I came back to the house after work late one night and the cat was lying there convulsing and meowing in pain.

When I went to tell them, they said:
_Yeah.  The cat got poisoned. It's dying. The vet said there's nothing to do.  Just let it die. Now close the door and let us sleep._​I was shocked. I went out and pet the cat once, then went to my room and stared at the ceiling and listened to the cat in the other room.

After about 10 minutes, I realized the cat was outside my door.  She had dragged itself between convulsions, to my door for comfort.

It ended up laying next to me in my sleeping bag for the next 3 hrs convulsing and croaking until she passed away.  Then I took her out and laid her in her bed.

The next morning, the girl who lived there (who I might add, before this night I found attractive) said:
_See! She crawled back into her bed and died peacefully._​I arranged for new living arrangements that day.
[/sblock]
That's the _fun_ of poisoning.

Not giving you a hard time, but THAT'S why Umbran is upset. FYI.

Osc


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## Vraille Darkfang (Aug 23, 2006)

Oscaron said:
			
		

> Agreed.




Which is the reason I haven't done that. I've also had 8; yes 8, offers to loan me their hunting rifle (actually bow in 1 case & throwing axes in another).

I do not have anything against these cats personally.  They are just animals (although some cats serve over to the Dark Side a little too easily; such as my sister's attack cat).  They are just not being properly handled; thus forcing me to figure out what to do.

Since I live inside the city limits there is a set list of procedures.

1. Inform Animal Control (part of my taxes pays these people after all).

2. Animal Control will Investigate and Respond Accordingly (in this case, tell the 'owner' that 'stray' cats are roaming free and harming other people's property, thus AC will be setting out live traps to catch them.  And, should your cat be one of those caught, you can pick it up at the pound, providing you provide proof of shots and tags.

3. Set out Traps.  (This is the step we are on; one cat was caught.  It had to be destroyed because it was too wild to put up for adoption and no one wanted to claim it).

I'm not looking to make these cats suffer (despite the suffering/aggravation they are causing me).  The problem is an irresponsible owner, not a bunch of feral felines.  If the owner was a decent, well, owner, I would have no problems.  But, she isn't thus, I've been forced to take matters into my own hands.  Or, in this case Animal Control because that is what they are there for.

Oh,

If you think Anti-Freeze is a horrible way for a Cat to die, you should see one that gets its enitre back half ran over by a tractor trailer, but manages to live.  For a while.  Not a pretty sight.


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## Pielorinho (Aug 23, 2006)

I worked for a humane society for six years (last Friday was my last day--I'm still in shock, even though it was a deliberate and amicable parting and I'll keep volunteering for them).  A couple notes:

1)  *Vraille*, it sounds as if you're handling the situation very well.  I only wish everyone were as conscientious as you.
2) Suggestions for killing the cats in various ways may be legal where you live, or may result in a felony animal cruelty charge, *especially* if you kill an owned animal in a way that causes suffering.  Animal welfare advocacy aside, you (I mean the impersonal "you" here, not *Vraille* specifically) need to be perfectly, crystal clear on the law before you decide to take matters into your own hands.
3) I'm pretty surprised that the odor from five cats' droppings would be so strong that the animal control person would need to wear a mask.  That sounds to me as though her entire house might be full of cats, the classic animal hoarder type.  Are you certain it's this few animals, or are you judging by the animals you see?
4) Things may be different where you live, but 'round our parts, animal control loves photographic evidence.  If you can get a disposable camera and take pictures of her cats on your property, that can be very helpful.
5) Someone suggested removing the tags from the cat before taking him to the animal shelter.  This is a bad idea, for several reasons.  First, it creates a liability for you:  doing this is pretty illegal, and will probably constitute fraud (since most shelters have you sign a form attesting that you don't know the animal's owner).  Second, it's a terrible thing to do to the shelter staff:  if they end up having to euthanize an animal, and then the owner comes in later to find out their pet was euthanized, you can bet that owner is going to scream and wail at the poor shelter employees, maybe threaten their lives, maybe threaten to call the police on them, maybe start writing to city council with half-truth-filled screeds against the shelter.  Don't put the shelter employees in this situation.
6) Finally, although some no-kill shelters will take in any animal, most are what's called "limited-access":  they only take in animals that they're pretty sure they can find a home for, and only take in animals when they currently have an open cage. The folks that run the open-access shelter--i.e., the folks that never turn an animal away--have a pretty thankless job.  I dunno how relevant that is, but I figured I'd throw it in anyway .

Good luck getting this awful situation resolved!

Daniel


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## werk (Aug 23, 2006)

Vraille Darkfang said:
			
		

> If you think Anti-Freeze is a horrible way for a Cat to die, you should see one that gets its enitre back half ran over by a tractor trailer, but manages to live.  For a while.  Not a pretty sight.




Since we're into horrible cat stories now...my mom's cat 'Fancy' got ran over.  Mom has farm cats to control 'varmints' like mice, moles, stuff like that, so the cats are always outside, but are fixed, well fed and tended to, and they shelter in the climate controlled barn.  

Fancy was RUN OVER, literally, flattened out, head and all, bleeding from the ears, etc. and was not happy about it...but was alive.  Took her to the vet who said, wow, not a lot I can do, she has a lot of broken bones, including her skull, take her home and hope for the best.  And Fancy pulled through completely fine!  About two years later she was run over again, insta-kill, which somehow seemed weirder than her surviving the first time.

<pours out a little for Fancy Cat>

Glad to see you're not even considering poisoning or harming your neighbor's cats, even in frustration!


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## Xath (Aug 24, 2006)

werk said:
			
		

> Since we're into horrible cat stories now...my mom's cat 'Fancy' got ran over.  Mom has farm cats to control 'varmints' like mice, moles, stuff like that, so the cats are always outside, but are fixed, well fed and tended to, and they shelter in the climate controlled barn.
> 
> Fancy was RUN OVER, literally, flattened out, head and all, bleeding from the ears, etc. and was not happy about it...but was alive.  Took her to the vet who said, wow, not a lot I can do, she has a lot of broken bones, including her skull, take her home and hope for the best.  And Fancy pulled through completely fine!  About two years later she was run over again, insta-kill, which somehow seemed weirder than her surviving the first time.
> 
> ...




My aunt's cat, Figaro, had a similar situation, except that it resulted in the amputation of his rear left leg.  Cats are pretty amazing creatures, for the amount of sheer abuse they can survive.  

That same cat also learned to use and flush the toilet.


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## Oscaron (Aug 24, 2006)

Vraille Darkfang said:
			
		

> If you think Anti-Freeze is a horrible way for a Cat to die, you should see one that gets its enitre back half ran over by a tractor trailer, but manages to live.  For a while.  Not a pretty sight.




Does it make me a bad person if I say that I wouldn't feel 1/100th as bad if you gave Anti-Freeze to the woman and her live-in?

Osc


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## megamania (Aug 24, 2006)

In the 70's my parents had adopted a cat that before they could even agree on a name was hit by a car.  The stomach burst complete with everything hanging out.   Parent's did what they could to "put it back together".  It lived (though afraid of the road now) and was given a name- Superman.



Beyond all this-  lets get back to being useful to the problem on hand.  Legal means are required- NOT lethal poisoning and the such.


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## Uzumaki (Aug 24, 2006)

Oscaron said:
			
		

> Does it make me a bad person if I say that I wouldn't feel 1/100th as bad if you gave Anti-Freeze to the woman and her live-in?
> 
> Osc




Of course not. I would throw a party. Humans = the biggest animal menace on the planet.

Please don't sell animals to labs. I know there is protocol for lab animal welfare, but it's such ugly business that a quick death is preferable.


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## kenobi65 (Aug 24, 2006)

werk said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure we have black bears in Wisconsin too, just not in Madison




Yup...there's actually a bear-hunting season in Wisconsin, but pretty much all of 'em are way up north, in the woods.

Wisconsin joke:
Q: How do you keep bears out of your backyard?
A: Put up goalposts.


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## Harmon (Aug 24, 2006)

Nellisir said:
			
		

> 5 - On a lighter, fantasy note -- I've got a dog that comes with a no-cat-comes-back guarantee (my cats survive by moving slow -- really.)




We had a dog like that around here for a brief time, got after one of my cats.  

I informed my nieghbor that I would do to his dog what his dog did to my cats.  Quickly he broke his dog of chasing cats.  I think he realized something about my seriousness in the matter.


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## Pielorinho (Aug 24, 2006)

Moderator's Notes
I just want to remind folks that this can't get into a discussion of the merits of animal welfare, animal rights, or other political positions.  Discussing the law as it stands is fine, and discussing individual cases is fine (within limits), but I can say from long experience that if this gets into a discussion of the merits of different attitudes toward animals, it's gonna get emotional fast .

Daniel


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## bodhi (Aug 25, 2006)

Uzumaki said:
			
		

> Please don't sell animals to labs.



What if he sells the neighbor to a lab?


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## Vraille Darkfang (Aug 25, 2006)

Pielorinho said:
			
		

> 3) I'm pretty surprised that the odor from five cats' droppings would be so strong that the animal control person would need to wear a mask.  That sounds to me as though her entire house might be full of cats, the classic animal hoarder type.  Are you certain it's this few animals, or are you judging by the animals you see?




3 Months worth of Cat's Eating the Cheapest Dry Food Available
+
2 Months of 100+ Degree Heat.
+
1 Day of Rain
+ Right Back to the Heat Wave.

AC CHOOSE to wear a mask.  She might not of HAD to, but she had one & choose to wear it for her comfort.

A little bit of an update.

The Boys in Blue have now been called in.

Really.

If you remember, I mentioned that we live next door to a Spinster woman (in her 60's I think).  She's lived in the town her entire life and does a lot of charity and volunteer work.  She's very nice, but a little.... ummm... Eccentric.

She's been removing the cat doody from her flowerbeds every morning this entire time.  The cat's have now taken to leaving their little stink piles under almost every window in her house.

She lacks Central AC.

She called the Cops.  (not 911, thank God, just the Police Department).  She knows all of them by name (part of her volunteer work is for most of the police functions).  She gave them a 'Stern Talking To' (As she has known some of them since Grade School this was more effective than if I had tried it).

So.  Now we are getting 2 traps set out.

(At present our Nieghbor will not be recieving an Protective Services for her flower beds).


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## buzzard (Aug 25, 2006)

Harmon said:
			
		

> We had a dog like that around here for a brief time, got after one of my cats.
> 
> I informed my nieghbor that I would do to his dog what his dog did to my cats.  Quickly he broke his dog of chasing cats.  I think he realized something about my seriousness in the matter.




I suppose this depends on where the cat is. I have a fenced in yard, and were a cat dumb enough to enter it when my dog were present, I would enjoy watching that cat be chased out of my yard. My dog doesn't ever even try to jump the fence (she isn't a jumper), so it would end at that. If some neighbor dared to complain that my dog had chased their cat, I would either laugh in their face, or maybe use more choice words about where there cats should be. 

buzzard


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## Nareau (Aug 25, 2006)

Ed:  "Hey Murray, pass me the donuts."
Murray:  "Eh, sure.  There's only one left."
E: "Man, I hate stakeout work."
M: "Me too...wait, what's that?!  Over there, in the flowerbed!!"
E:"Oh, crap!  Dispatch, we've got a 10-29h situation on our hands!  Send in all units; repeat, send in all units!"
M:  "Oh no...oh no...the HUMANITY!  I think I'm gonna...be...BROWLLLFFF"

Spider


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## kenobi65 (Aug 25, 2006)

Spider said:
			
		

> E:"Oh, crap!  Dispatch, we've got a 10-29h situation on our hands!  Send in all units; repeat, send in all units!"




Those of us old enough to remember CB radios would suggest that it's actually a 10-100 situation.


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## Harmon (Aug 26, 2006)

buzzard

He kinda implied the same thing- <shrug> "dog gon-it, Dave."  I think that was what got him when he realized I would hold him responsible for anything and everything that happened to my son or my daughter.  

Even once got a guy fired for targeting cats on his way to work.  Saw him swerve to hit a cat, he misssed.  We talked later about it, the boss heard and the boss fired him, it was a couple days later that the boss told me why.  That was cool, to bad the jerk couldn't be told but hay thems the breaks.

Peace, all.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Aug 26, 2006)

> I have a fenced in yard, and were a cat dumb enough to enter it when my dog were present, I would enjoy watching that cat be chased out of my yard.




Our dogs & cats got along, but the dogs hated intruder kitties.

There was one neighborhood tom, however, who loved the sound of barking dogs.

We would let the dogs out to romp in our (fenced in) yard, and occasionally, we'd hear them barking their heads off.  One day, I decided to investigate.

There was the cat lying down in our driveway, turned so his back was to the gate to our yard (a mere 2' away).  His ears were turned to the dogs, and he was slowly flipping his tail and purring audibly (I could hear him despite the barking dogs).

However, when I laughed at the tableau, he quickly skampered off.


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## Vraille Darkfang (Sep 12, 2006)

VICTORY at LAST!!!!!!!

Or, more accurately....

The lady is gone.  Vanished.  Left with no forwarding address.

And, she took the cats.

Plus, I got to hear the whole thing, as I was mowing (with my new, whisper quiet electric mower) while she yelled her head off on her cell phone as she was moving out.

It seems her (deleted, deleted, and yet more grandma unfriendly terms deleted) were horribly cat haters and complained.  She was really letting 'whoever' complained have it.  She actually used the phrase "What is the problem if they dig and crap in their yard?  Cats will be cats."

Listening to her rant, it became clear she was mentally incapable of even entertaining the idea that letting cats just run wild could in any way inconvience other human beings.  She is incapable of seeing beyond herself.

Now, as to why she moved, and part of the reason she was so ticked off.

Her lease says no pets.  She had 3 dogs and 4 cats.  When Animal Control kept getting called in (and the lady pretended no one was home), the Animal Control agent got the brainstorm of looking up who lived there via public records.  Thus she got the land-lords phone, and told him how all the animals at the house were disturbing the neighbors.

His first thought was "What animals at the house with a No-Pets clause?!?!"

He drove over and gave them 48 hours to clear out.

I should point out that the land lord IS a slum-lord.  He doesn't give a darn who he rents to, the house is starting to fall apart and he doesn't do jack.

I think the only reason he kicked her out (the animals had been around 8+months) was this was the first he'd heard of it, and the animals might damage stuff.

Since he bought that house (nieghbors have been there forever), the 'Cat Lady' was one of the better tenants.

The previous tenant got left he stopped paying rent.  That's what happens when you develop a Meth Habit.  

The land-lord is a jerk.  That's about nicest thing I can say.  I talked to him for 30 seconds and, while I'm no paladin, me Detect Jerk ability was almost blinding.

It'll be OK.  We were looking at moving in a year or two anyway.  And my wife has a shot at a better job about 60 miles away (as I live 30 miles from work to begin with, the distance would be the same, just going North rather than East to get to work).

Bottom Line.

She was incapable of giving a darn about anyone but herself.

Landlord's incapable of giving a darn about anyone other than his pocket-book (not in the smart-greedy way, more in the stupid-lazy-greedy way).


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## Barendd Nobeard (Sep 12, 2006)

kenobi65 said:
			
		

> Yup...there's actually a bear-hunting season in Wisconsin, but pretty much all of 'em are way up north, in the woods.
> 
> Wisconsin joke:
> Q: How do you keep bears out of your backyard?
> A: Put up goalposts.




Not this week, bub!  

And, Vraille, congrats!!!!!!!


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## Harmon (Sep 12, 2006)

VD,

Good to hear that problem has cleared up for you.    

I was thinking about you and the cat lady a couple days back (it was all in kindness). 

Harmon


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## Nyaricus (Sep 12, 2006)

Nice, good to hear it was as simple as tipping off the landlord, after all that. At least there wasn't a prolonged legal battle. 

cheers,
--N


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## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 12, 2006)

Congrats and here's hoping that you haven't traded cat poo for meth-head poo (before you move on, that is)!


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## Chimera (Sep 13, 2006)

Congrats!

Hope you can get your own yard *safely* cleaned up so that your family can use it again!


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## Jdvn1 (Sep 13, 2006)

Victory is mine!


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## Mycanid (Sep 13, 2006)

Whew! Glad that is over!


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## BOZ (Sep 13, 2006)

glad to see your sitaution has been solved with little or no harm to fuzzy critters.


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## kibbitz (Sep 14, 2006)

Congratulations, though I must say, that bit about the landlord is interesting... anyway, you just shifting to somewhere else in the neighbourhood, or are you and the missus planning to relocate to somewhere significantly further? If it's okay to ask, of course.


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