# Psionic Races/Template?



## Leathros (Jul 20, 2011)

Hi guys! Im new here, this is my first thread.

I wanna know ALL you that you guys think about Psionics.

I wanna a really powerfull psionic, but there are so much options 
that i really don't know where to start

I'll be very thankful if u guys lend me a hand on this.

Im talking about 3.5 ed. 

Is there an Psionic Template for this edition??

Oh and something else, i dont know what in EARTH are the "Combat Modes" i mean, the Attack Modes, and Defense Modes, from the psionics!
can anyone tell me what's this all about? THX 
Thx guys!! I hope u can help me here!


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## Dandu (Jul 20, 2011)

spionics are teh brokenz


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## Duke Arioch (Jul 20, 2011)

I myself don't like psi rules (or any alternate rules). But psi is powerful, no doubting that. 
Psion is, by far the strongest psi class, but probably the hardest to master. I am guessing this would be your first psi character. If that is true, my advice is to go with gishy psi classes. If you like roguish characters, go lurk, if you like warrior type characters, psi warrior is the guy for you. Beyond that, consider the psion and wilder as hard to master as wizard or sorcerer in relation to other classes.
I consider warforged and kalashtar the best races for the job, but both are from Eberron, so you should ask your DM if they would be allowed. However, any INT enhancing race would be a good start.


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## Dandu (Jul 20, 2011)

Warforged Psion meditates and shoots lasers of enlightenment from his eyes.


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## Wyvernhand (Jul 20, 2011)

Attack modes? Defense modes? You sure you are looking at 3.5 psionics? Cause that sounds an aweful lot like 3.0 psionics. The EASIEST way to tell is to look at the Psion. If all disciplines manifest based on Int, then it is 3.5. If some disciplines manifest off other stats (like Egoism off Con, and Telepathy off Cha, IIRC), then it is 3.0. 3.0 psionics is...broken. As much as I hate that word, it is. Not broken as in way overpowered. Broken as in "does not work as intended". I'll see if I can find you the proper quote...

Oh, I guess the real easiest way is to look at the book. Psionic Handbook is 3.0, while Expanded Psionic Handbook (XPH) and Complete Psion are both 3.5.

Look here for the 3.5 psionics rules from XPH (second column, right under epic rules). 3.5 psionics is basically "magic renamed", with some minor changes. In case it gets glossed over somewhere, the cardinal rule of psionics is "THOU SHALT NOT SPEND MORE PP ON A SINGLE MANIFESTATION THAN THOU HAST MANIFESTER LEVELS". Most initial reactions see "oh, a 3rd level psion could dump all 20 of his PP into a single manifestation of Energy Ray to deal 20d6 damage. Thats overpowered". No...the 3rd level psion can only spend 3 PP, since his ML is probably still only 3.

Oh, and in case its a little confusing, manifesting = casting a power. Manifester level is roughly equal to caster level, and manifesting classes are rather like casting classes. They just get their own word because they are "special".

Oh, found it!


			
				AntiDjinn on the WotC Boards said:
			
		

> _I have used this model before, but to really appreciate how this "class feature" worked you should see how it would apply if ported to mainstream D&D where they haven't been conditioned to accept inferior mechanics without question. Lets take the big sacred moo, a Cleric's undead turning ability:_
> 
> _DM: "Before we get started, Cleric, I just want you to know that I am instituting some changes in your turn undead class feature that will make your class more different and give it a unique divine mechanic."_
> 
> ...


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## Leathros (Jul 20, 2011)

Awesome quot, very funny ! 

So atk and defense modes are from 3.0, nice, thx 4 that.

And yes, im planing to make some multiclass psion/wilder/meditant psionic character, but still cant decide which race i will use :S


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## Dandu (Jul 20, 2011)

elanz are teh brokenz


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## xigbar (Jul 20, 2011)

It depends on what you're looking for. As dandu so eloquently, Elans are nice, for their racial once a day life saver. It also depends on what you're trying to do, if level adjustment are allowed, etc. I personally like using LA +1 characters, and Halg-Giants are nice in that vein, letting you wield large weapons. Expansion with a large spiked chain could be nice.


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## kitcik (Jul 20, 2011)

Expansion is great for monks.

Maybe...

er, never mind.


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## Sekhmet (Jul 21, 2011)

Elan Psion (Metacreativity/Shaper) for great effect.

I'm not fond of how they've remastered Psionics to basically be a Wizard variant, I liked how it used to be (Attack Modes, Defense Modes, a rare trait that any character or monster can possess that had as many drawbacks as uses).

How it stands now, you're basically a Sorcerer with slightly fewer limitations, in that power points can be used in any manner you'd like without having to be specific levels.
Do remember that you'll blast through your power points like nothing is you use them wastefully.


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## Leathros (Jul 21, 2011)

Pretty much everything is allowed, except for Eberron and stuff.
I was searching for something that doesen't have LA so i can 
lvl up faster
But pherenic template... omg...

I have another question, say i have a Psion2/Wilder2
Int 18 (+4)
Cha 16 (+3)

i get bonus PP for high key characteristic, does this means i get
bonus PP for BOTH Int and Cha, for being Psion/Wilder??


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## RUMBLETiGER (Jul 21, 2011)

Leathros said:


> I have another question, say i have a Psion2/Wilder2
> Int 18 (+4)
> Cha 16 (+3)
> 
> ...



Yup, but in the long run, straight Psion will get the most PP in high levels.


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## Sekhmet (Jul 21, 2011)

Leathros said:


> Pretty much everything is allowed, except for Eberron and stuff.
> I was searching for something that doesen't have LA so i can
> lvl up faster
> But pherenic template... omg...
> ...




When you gain a level in Psion, you'll get your Int mod to PP. When you gain a level in Wilder, you'll gain your Cha mod to PP. 
 As stated before, the Psion will receive the most PP by far, but if you're just using his PP to augment the available pool (not a good idea), then it isn't a terrible route.


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## Leathros (Jul 21, 2011)

Im planning on get 1 or 3 levels of Wilder so i get the free Augment no more,
and then go with Meditant, those Stat Boots really rocks.


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## Wyvernhand (Jul 21, 2011)

If all you want is the free augment, look into Overchannel or something like Earth Power (Races of Stone).  Its not worth sacrificing higher level powers for it.


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## Leathros (Jul 21, 2011)

But overchannel doesen't give Free Augment points, with Wilder lvls y can augment every single power and get it augmented FREE !


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## Wyvernhand (Jul 21, 2011)

In the short term, that might save you some PP, but if you look at the math, it doesn't hold up. First of all, you'll only have Wild Surge +1, which means you'll only ever get one extra PP per power if you use it each time. You will, however, be 1-3 MLs behind unless you spend a feat on Practiced Manifester, so you are either just barely breaking even, or you are spending a feat. Also, since you are a whole level or more behind, you'll have fewer PP per day. At mid to high levels, the difference in PP is after 20 points or more per level, and that's not even counting bonus PP for a high stat. You can augment a lot of powers with 20+ extra PP.

And then there is the fact that you'll have fewer higher level powers, and your highest level powers will lag behind.

Trust me, it looks shiny and neat. But so does the monk class. I'd pick either Psion or Wilder and run with it, especially for your first psionic character.

And remember, YOU CAN'T SPEND MORE PP ON A SINGLE MANIFESTATION THAN YOU HAVE MANIFESTED LEVELS!


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## Leathros (Jul 21, 2011)

Wild Surge (Su)
A wilder can let her passion and emotion rise to the surface in a wild surge when she manifests a power. During a wild surge, a wilder gains phenomenal psionic strength, but may harm herself by the reckless use of her power (see Psychic Enervation, below).

A wilder can choose to invoke a wild surge whenever she manifests a power. When she does so, she gains +1 to her manifester level with that manifestation of the power. The manifester level boost gives her the ability to augment her powers to a higher degree than she otherwise could; however, she pays no extra power point for this wild surge. Instead, the additional 1 power point that would normally be required to augment the power is effectively supplied by the wild surge.

Level-dependent power effects are also improved, depending on the power a wilder manifests with her wild surge.

This improvement in manifester level does not grant her any other benefits (psicrystal abilities do not advance, she does not gain higher-level class abilities, and so on).

She cannot use the Overchannel psionic feat and invoke her wild surge at the same time.

At 3rd level, a wilder can choose to boost her manifester level by two instead of one. At 7th level, she can boost her manifester level by up to three; at 11th level, by up to four; at 15th level, by up to five; and at 19th level, by up to six.

In all cases, the wild surge effectively pays the extra power point cost that is normally required to augment the power; only the unaugmented power point cost is subtracted from the wilder’s power point reserve.

It pays ALL the augment points, not just 1 point.
Or that's what i can understand from this.


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## nijineko (Jul 21, 2011)

Leathros said:


> Wild Surge (Su)
> A wilder can let her passion and emotion rise to the surface in a wild surge when she manifests a power. During a wild surge, a wilder gains phenomenal psionic strength, but may harm herself by the reckless use of her power (see Psychic Enervation, below).
> 
> A wilder can choose to invoke a wild surge whenever she manifests a power. _*When she does so, she gains +1 to her manifester level with that manifestation of the power*_. The manifester level boost gives her the ability to augment her powers to a higher degree than she otherwise could; however, she pays no extra power point for this wild surge. _*Instead, the additional 1 power point that would normally be required to augment the power is effectively supplied by the wild surge.*_
> ...




the part i marked says that you only get one point. also the rule that you can't manifest more than you ml per manifestation (or round, i forget which), and surge increases your ml by only one, ergo 1 pp in the given example. however, see below. 

the free part is limited by the number of levels your surge boosts your ml. however, if you have a high ml, and surge, and use most of your pp per manifestation on augmentations and the base cost of the power is a lot less than your ml+surge, then yeah, according to that wording, it would also pay for all the augment cost up to your new adjusted temporary ml. 

i guess we are saying pretty much the same thing, only different details.


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## Wyvernhand (Jul 21, 2011)

The last paragraph is simply a reminder to the 2nd paragraph, rather than a new rule. There it indicates that each +1 you get from Wild Surge comes with its own free PP. You still have to pay any other augment costs associated with the power you desire to add. Wild Surge doesn't actually make all of your augment free. Sorry. If it was the way you see it, one level of Wilder would be in EVERY psionic build ever.

I stand by my advise that it would be prudent to make your first psionic character either a Psion or a Wilder, and not try to mix and match.


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## Leathros (Jul 22, 2011)

In all cases, the wild surge effectively pays the extra power point cost that is normally required to augment the power; only the unaugmented power point cost is subtracted from the wilder’s power point reserve.


Then that phrase is wrong, it says "only the unaugmented power point cost is subtracted from the wilder’s power point reserve" but its not true, u still have to pay the rest of the augmentation? its stupid.


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## Wyvernhand (Jul 22, 2011)

Again...you are taking it out of context. That text only applies WRT the extra points supplied by Wild Surge. It is a reminder to the 2nd paragraph. It is not new rule text, just clarification.


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## Leathros (Jul 22, 2011)

WRT? didn't get that... What does it means?

Anyway, i still don't get it, i have read it in English, and Spanish, both says
that it gives you free augmentation power points for each power u wanna use with Wild Surge, i don't know, i might be blind but i just read it that way!

I mean, cmmon, that phrase its pretty clear !

ONLY THE UNAUGMENTED POWER POINTS ARE EXTRACTED ...

wth?


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## Wyvernhand (Jul 22, 2011)

WRT: With Regards To (also White Raven Tactics, but thats a whole different thread).

Also, you are taking the sentance out of context. You know what context means? That means that what is said vs what is implied is different because of other statements preceding or suceeding the statement.

Lets look at it again, with a bit of snippity snip.



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> <snip>
> A wilder can choose to invoke a wild surge whenever she manifests a power. When she does so, she gains +1 to her manifester level with that manifestation of the power. The manifester level boost gives her the ability to augment her powers to a higher degree than she otherwise could; however, she pays no extra power point for this wild surge. Instead, the additional 1 power point that would normally be required to augment the power is effectively supplied by the wild surge.
> <snip>
> At 3rd level, a wilder can choose to boost her manifester level by two instead of one. At 7th level, she can boost her manifester level by up to three; at 11th level, by up to four; at 15th level, by up to five; and at 19th level, by up to six.
> ...




In all cases refers to the paragraph right above it. All cases refers to the different amounts a Wilder can surge for, depending on her level. The last statement only really applies if the Wild Surge is the only augmentation provided. All other augments must be paid for seperately.

By taking that last paragraph out of context, standing it by itself, alone, I can see where its confusing. But together, as a whole, it is not, because it is self referential. The 2nd paragraph in Wild Surge is the one that contain all of the rules about how bonus PP are applied. The last statement is simply reminder text that no matter how much you are able to surge for, Wild Surge always covers that many extra PP which can be used to augment the power.

EDIT: Trust me...if it really ment what you think it means, EVERY psionic build would include 1 level of Wilder.  Being a Psion19/Wilder1 and being able to cast a 20d6 Energy Ray for 1 PP?  Hot dang!  And that's not even MODERATELY optimized.


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## Leathros (Jul 22, 2011)

Ye of course, i see your point.
It freaking confusing -.-

thx anyway 

in spanish it says a Whole different thing xD


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## Belzbet (Jul 23, 2011)

Leathros said:


> In all cases, the wild surge effectively pays the extra power point cost that is normally required to augment the power; only the unaugmented power point cost is subtracted from the wilder’s power point reserve.
> 
> 
> Then that phrase is wrong, it says "only the unaugmented power point cost is subtracted from the wilder’s power point reserve" but its not true, u still have to pay the rest of the augmentation? its stupid.




Hi Leathros and welcome I have been reading this thread and unfortunately I believe you may be reading the word "augmented" wrongly in this context.  It can mean two things: (1) a level 3 power costs 5 pp (lets say this power is exactly like fireball, but it does 5d6 damage and you have to spend one more pp for an extra die of damage so if i soend 7 pp it would do 7d6). Now we call that "augmenting" the spell. (2) wild surge augments the spell (read the first highlighted blue sentence above). So, we are talking about two different types of augmentations (it would seem weird it it paid FOR ALL OF THE augmentation). are you saying that a lv 18psion/level2wilder can cast a 19d6 psionic fireball for 5 pp EDIT: better yet a 20d6 energy ray for 1pp, I should have read further???? If so I would have to disagree... But yeah you have to pay for the augmentation  that ISNT provided by the wild surge class feature thats the only way it makes sense to me... Yeah we all have to go through the ambiguous wording of the text...


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## Leathros (Jul 23, 2011)

Yeah i already thought that  thx for your help guys!!

I think that Human Pheneric is the best choice, or just human. I get 6 feats at lvl 6 with full psion, its awesome.

Some feats recomendations for a Psion??


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