# Enterprise 05-21-03 (Season Finale)



## Mark (May 20, 2003)

*Enterprise* - The Expanse

_The ship and the series change course in dramatic fashion with this bold second-season finale about the aftermath of an alien probe of Earth that kills millions.

With Enterprise under fire from fans and critics for being too cautious, executive producers Rick Berman and Brannon Braga penned a daring script that gives the crew a new ongoing mission: to thwart the Xindi, who launched the probe to avenge a future attack by Earth. To prevent the aliens from developing more weapons of mass destruction, Enterprise is sent into the Delphic Expanse, a dangerous area of space Archer likens to the Bermuda Triangle. But first, Archer must elude a Klingon obsessed with his capture._


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## fba827 (May 20, 2003)

It sounds interesting enough and certainly has had its share of hype from the producers... I look forward to seeing it if for no other reason than to see where they take it.  But, even beyond that, I am sure it will be enjoyable for an hour's worth of entertainment... season's finales usually are.

(not that I will get to actually see it Wednesday night due to time commitments elsewhere *sigh* -- I'll have to wait for the saturday repeat).


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## Eternalknight (May 20, 2003)

I won't get to see it for around three weeks, but I am looking forward to it!


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## uv23 (May 20, 2003)

Any Canadians know when this will be on here? I haven't been able to find it on any listings. Last episode I saw was the borg one so I'm a bit behind. I thought I saw a commercial on Space Channels aying Enterprise was moving to Wednesdays but I don't see it on the jam tv Wednesday listings.


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## myrdden (May 20, 2003)

uv23 said:
			
		

> *Any Canadians know when this will be on here? I haven't been able to find it on any listings. Last episode I saw was the borg one so I'm a bit behind. I thought I saw a commercial on Space Channels aying Enterprise was moving to Wednesdays but I don't see it on the jam tv Wednesday listings. *




It should be on A Channel on Wednesday.  At least it is in Edmonton.

Myrdden


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## uv23 (May 20, 2003)

myrdden said:
			
		

> *
> 
> It should be on A Channel on Wednesday.  At least it is in Edmonton.
> 
> Myrdden *




Well I'll be in Edmonton tomorrow so I guess I'll be able to catch it after all.  Thanks!


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## Brown Jenkin (May 20, 2003)

Mark said:
			
		

> *
> But first, Archer must elude a Klingon obsessed with his capture. *




Aaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrgggggghhhhhh!

Please no.


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## Mark (May 20, 2003)

*Re: Re: Enterprise 05-21-03 (Season Finale)*



			
				Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Aaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrgggggghhhhhh!
> 
> Please no. *




_*taps needle and sedates overdramatic poster...*_


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## Brown Jenkin (May 20, 2003)

I've been sticking through Enterprise despite its many flaws. I was looking forward to the season finale as it seemed among the more interesting episodes of this season. Lately I have been more bored than anything by the episodes and this seemed like it might be better. I am concearned however that including this klingon subplot will drag the episode down by just giving us more of the same tired plots. Hopefully it will be just a small part of the episode and the whole earth under attack part will hold my interest.


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## Mark (May 20, 2003)

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> *I've been sticking through Enterprise despite its many flaws. I was looking forward to the season finale as it seemed among the more interesting episodes of this season. Lately I have been more bored than anything by the episodes and this seemed like it might be better. I am concearned however that including this klingon subplot will drag the episode down by just giving us more of the same tired plots. Hopefully it will be just a small part of the episode and the whole earth under attack part will hold my interest. *




I think we're going to keep seeing little bits and pieces about Klingons chasing Archer in episodes here and there until they clear Archer of the charges.  I don't think that Klingons are the forgiving type, nor do I think they like to let things simmer on the back burner.  They'll be dogging him with whatever resources they can spare.  Even when they don't use them, I think they'll be mentioned, at least in an off-handed way.  I think it is a good thing and helps to raise the stakes of being out in deep space.  Perpetual one-shot episodes with no long lasting consequences doesn't seem very compelling to me.

Part of the problem is that we can't sum up a history with a few pithy citations like they did in TOS and all series afterwards.  It's becoming increasingly obvious that the "Vulcan Database" is fairly sketchy, probably due to them either holding back or being so involved in a near-war with the Andorians that it isn't all that well-developed.  In fact, not having an extensive database may be the reason the Vulcans _are_ holding back.  Perhaps they see the Humans as stepping off into space and being natural leaders, a role they felt they were destined to play.

Anyway, two seasons from now when they want to start building the Federation and they want to cite various conflicts with the Klingons as reasons for doing this, all of these snippets are going to need to have been the groundwork for such a leap.


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## fba827 (May 20, 2003)

I _believe_ they already said that the Klingon chasing Archer was going to specifically be Duras.  So it isn't just some random Klingon bent on upholding the law but rather a specific klingon who has a specific story-related reason for hunting down the captain..

('course, I could be remembering wrong)


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## Mark (May 21, 2003)

Might want to add a *Possible Spoiler Alert* to that last one, fb...


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## Tom Cashel (May 22, 2003)

*SPOILERS*



I thought this episode was terrible.

For all the talk about a "new direction," they managed to produce the same tired old Star Trek/Enterprise plot.  How many times have we seen the "getting ready for a big mission" show?  Too many to count.  How many times have Klingons been after the captain of the Enterprise?  About three times in this season of Enterprise alone (and countless times in other shows).  How many times do we have to see T'pol agonize over whether to defy the Vulcan High Command?

It took 45 minutes to leave spacedock!  What th--?!

I would have forgiven all of this if the episode was 2 hrs. long.  Take one hour to show us all that sameness, and then take us in a new direction already!  Although I was hopeful when the Suliban told Archer to "stand closer so you can see more clearly," there was no resolution to the Temporal Cold War plotline.  And by ending the season where they did, there's no indication of a "new direction" except a malevolent probe and the name of a new species.  Yawn.

With a second hour, they could have shown viewers and Paramount execs alike what there is to look forward to.  They could have established total weirdness in the Expanse, they could have had Archer bust out his secret stash of future knowledge, they could have given us a reason--ANY reason--to tune in for another season.  I don't give two bits about the timeline, or Trek continuity...I want to see something new!

As it is, I'll be very surprised if the show doesn't get cancelled.  Which is sad...they could have ended it all on a much better note.  Instead, the Enterprise will likely sail off into the great unknown...never having had much of an effect on the show's "future," or the Trek mythology.

What a waste.


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## myrdden (May 22, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Enterprise 05-21-03 (Season Finale)*



			
				Mark said:
			
		

> *
> 
> *taps needle and sedates overdramatic poster...* *




Maybe he's a pirate?

Myrdden


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## myrdden (May 22, 2003)

If I were to sum up the episode in one word it would be 'meh'.

There was really nothing in it to get me all that excited about the next season.  Photon torpedoes?...meh...the writers seem bent on accelerating the technological level of the show so that they can do stories more in line with TNG.  Rogue vulcan on the ship...meh...the subplot regarding T'Pol's choice had no gravity to it and just wasted time.  The Klingon attack on the Enterprise...not too bad...it seeds the series for future conflict and was interesting to see the Enterprise aided by other Earth vessels.  On the downside the little maneuver in the nebula was hokey.  I'm not sure what to think of "The Expanse" - is normal space so boring that we require an area that defies the laws of physics?  

Overall the episode lacked spark and if this is a preview of what's ahead, I think the producers have seriously misjudged what the show needs.  While there were a few other items to the episode that made me shake my head, the best (and worst) I can say about it is 'meh'.

Myrdden


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## theT0rmented (May 22, 2003)

Well, Malcolm called the torpedoes _photonic_ torpedoes and not _photon_ torpedoes, not that it is a big difference.

I agree that T'Pol's indecision and decision wasn't handled all that well, but I liked the rest of the show.

What was wrong with Enterprise's maneuver? They took advantage of a dense pack of whatever; they knew the Klingon sensors weren't working all that well because many shots were missing them.

I liked Archer's decision to destroy the Klingon ship and not try to disable it or anything, after their first attempt.

The expanse may not necessarily defy the laws of physics; it just defies what the vulcans accept as the laws of physics. Remember "The Vulcan Science Directorate has determined that time travel is impossible..." ? (or whatever it is they've said a few times). I know I could be wrong on this; it may be a region with different laws of physics. We'll see next season, I guess.

For Tom:
I liked that they took time to show the decisions being made, the retrofitting of the ship, etc. The second hour you wanted will probably be the first episode of season 3. They explained the time lapse (at least a few months in the dock, seven weeks to reach the expanse, and an unknown amount of time to get to Earth at the start). Did someone catch how long it took them to get to Earth at the start? I didn't hear anything, but maybe I missed it.


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## Brown Jenkin (May 22, 2003)

theT0rmented said:
			
		

> * Did someone catch how long it took them to get to Earth at the start? I didn't hear anything, but maybe I missed it. *




When Malcom and Reid were talking in the ship durring drydock they mentioned that a memorial service had been held 2 months ago before they got back.


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## jasper (May 22, 2003)

ok another so so episode
gee is the poor little vulcan going to come to play with us. Well her contract says so.
Ok 7+ Million and at least 2 months pass before the Enterprise shows.
Humm Florida is what 20 to 300 feet about sea level. HOW deep was the valley they showed. Why wasn't more water in it. Hello it cut a new valley straight to coast thru cuba and into Venezuela!
Even if the engineers put up a sea wall at the keys, courses of rivers, swamps etc have been change.
Where was the clean up crews. Still debris at site. 
Humm big laser packs the sides of cut tight. Didn't Florida have sinkhole problems last decade. Yet the  sides of valley was sharp.
No matter how little or much time had pass the valley shot was bad. It would have been better if they had been in a boat on the new bay.

No tiolet paper in Starfleet because the Klingons must have been circling Uranis. Close enough to see them leave dry dock but not be detected.

The space junk. What big bad laser rips huge tracts of land and we have 2  and only two guards doing an honor guard on the coffin. Again short time or long time to get back to earth. 
The laser would cut to pieces or at least still have lab rats pouring over it.

Weather. hmm If months have pass before Big E return no problem if not. How many megagallons of steam and ash was pumped into atmospher.

Where are the marines ? i know the extras have not been casted.
But still Archer will need a new face or someone on deck will have new duties. 

Ok hopefully next year we get some better writers. Or many the writers will discuss with their 5 years for plans on protecting the Big E while the landing party away.
Please on Please do an year story arc like B5.


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## Mark (May 22, 2003)

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> *I've been sticking through Enterprise despite its many flaws. I was looking forward to the season finale as it seemed among the more interesting episodes of this season. Lately I have been more bored than anything by the episodes and this seemed like it might be better. I am concearned however that including this klingon subplot will drag the episode down by just giving us more of the same tired plots. Hopefully it will be just a small part of the episode and the whole earth under attack part will hold my interest. *




I think we're going to keep seeing little bits and pieces about Klingons chasing Archer in episodes here and there until they clear Archer of the charges.  I don't think that Klingons are the forgiving type, nor do I think they like to let things simmer on the back burner.  They'll be dogging him with whatever resources they can spare.  Even when they don't use them, I think they'll be mentioned, at least in an off-handed way.  I think it is a good thing and helps to raise the stakes of being out in deep space.  Perpetual one-shot episodes with no long lasting consequences doesn't seem very compelling to me.

Part of the problem is that we can't sum up a history with a few pithy citations like they did in TOS and all series afterwards.  It's becoming increasingly obvious that the "Vulcan Database" is fairly sketchy, probably due to them either holding back or being so involved in a near-war with the Andorians that it isn't all that well-developed.  In fact, not having an extensive database may be the reason the Vulcans _are_ holding back.  Perhaps they see the Humans as stepping off into space and being natural leaders, a role they felt they were destined to play.

Anyway, two seasons from now when they want to start building the Federation and they want to cite various conflicts with the Klingons as reasons for doing this, all of these snippets are going to need to have been the groundwork for such a leap.



			
				Tom Cashel said:
			
		

> *For all the talk about a "new direction," they managed to produce the same tired old Star Trek/Enterprise plot.  How many times have we seen the "getting ready for a big mission" show?  Too many to count.  How many times have Klingons been after the captain of the Enterprise?  About three times in this season of Enterprise alone (and countless times in other shows).  How many times do we have to see T'pol agonize over whether to defy the Vulcan High Command?*




(Howdy, New-Groom.  BTW, shoulda got married at center ice, man.  Where's your sense of class?  )

Anyway, it would have been their heads if they had left old plotlines with the Klingons unresolved and of course T'Pol has to agonize over going against the Vulcan High Command.  I have no idea how they would have her along if she didn't.



			
				Tom Cashel said:
			
		

> *It took 45 minutes to leave spacedock!  What th--?!*




Forty-five minutes of showtime equaled about four months of timeline time.  I believe the trip to the Expanse was said to be three months which accounts for the final fifteen minutes (approx).  If the network only gave them one hour and they managed to squeeze seven months of exposition (and a hell of a lot of action) into that time I'd have to say they did a lot more than most episodes of any ST series ever did.  I was impressed how well they moved things along and stil had it all make sense.  In the end it looks like they aren't going to allow themselves to be saddled with the old one year equals one season like all of the others.  I imagine that some of the usual diehards may not like it but if they're going to show the early formation of the Federation by the end of season seven that's how it will probably have to be.



			
				Tom Cashel said:
			
		

> *I would have forgiven all of this if the episode was 2 hrs. long.  Take one hour to show us all that sameness, and then take us in a new direction already!  Although I was hopeful when the Suliban told Archer to "stand closer so you can see more clearly," there was no resolution to the Temporal Cold War plotline.  And by ending the season where they did, there's no indication of a "new direction" except a malevolent probe and the name of a new species.  Yawn.*




I'd rather not have an hour of "sameness" and am glad they mixed the exposition with action and "newness" as well as they did.  The TCW isn't just going to be wiped away, it seems.  I think it's very cool and ambitious of them to integrate several big arcs into the series.  Klingon Vengeance, TCW, Xindi Problem....very ambitious, indeed!  As to how much they've given us on the new direction, how much do people need?  It'll unfold over the next few seasons and I think that's much better than completely outlining the situation all at once.



			
				Tom Cashel said:
			
		

> *With a second hour, they could have shown viewers and Paramount execs alike what there is to look forward to.  They could have established total weirdness in the Expanse, they could have had Archer bust out his secret stash of future knowledge, they could have given us a reason--ANY reason--to tune in for another season.  I don't give two bits about the timeline, or Trek continuity...I want to see something new!*




Although not a traditional cliffhanger, it seems to have gotten you very curious.  The second hour, as with all cliffhangers, comes as the first episode of next season, doesn't it...?   And let's face it, they are without any doubt trying to give us something new while not completely shattering the ever-more-delicate craniums of the canonites. 



			
				Tom Cashel said:
			
		

> *As it is, I'll be very surprised if the show doesn't get cancelled.  Which is sad...they could have ended it all on a much better note.  Instead, the Enterprise will likely sail off into the great unknown...never having had much of an effect on the show's "future," or the Trek mythology.
> 
> What a waste. *




It's already been renewed for next year, so I do not think we'll be seeing the cancelation axe all too soon.  I think we'll be seeing one of the best ST series ever.  One that is willing to bend the rules a bit in various ways to give us something new, while still keeping some of the traditions alive for old timers like myself.  No waste for this kid who used to watch as a child when Roddenbury first talked some network execs into putting Sci-Fi into primetime.  It's kinda funny in a way that most of the people who call themselves Trek fans didn't even start watching until just after it had been cancelled and was run as a weekend filler during the daytime (and most not until it got into it's second round of reruns years later). 



			
				Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> *When Malcom and Reid were talking in the ship durring drydock they mentioned that a memorial service had been held 2 months ago before they got back. *




They mentioned that it would take seven weeks to return to earth, IIRC.  I believe that after they had visited the surface and he pointed out the "old movie house" they returned to refit and repair the Enterprise and they used the "memorial service was two months back" line to represent the time it took to repair the ship, after they had gotten back and visited the surface.  That's the impression of things I got anyway.


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## Mark (May 22, 2003)

myrdden said:
			
		

> *If I were to sum up the episode in one word it would be 'meh'.
> 
> There was really nothing in it to get me all that excited about the next season.  Photon torpedoes?...meh...the writers seem bent on accelerating the technological level of the show so that they can do stories more in line with TNG.  Rogue vulcan on the ship...meh...the subplot regarding T'Pol's choice had no gravity to it and just wasted time.  The Klingon attack on the Enterprise...not too bad...it seeds the series for future conflict and was interesting to see the Enterprise aided by other Earth vessels.  On the downside the little maneuver in the nebula was hokey.  I'm not sure what to think of "The Expanse" - is normal space so boring that we require an area that defies the laws of physics?
> 
> ...




I think the writers have been very clever showing us the early versions of the weaponry and armor that we've come to know from series subsequent in the timeline.  Photonic Torpedoes as the precursor to straight up Photon Topedoes?  Makes perfect sense to me.  Seems to me that most weapons follow that sort of development and nomenclature.

T'Pol's choice lends itself to future Starfleet usupring of the Vulcan's self-proclaimed superiority.  How else do we move from them nursing Earth in its cradle to Humans being the dominant force in the formation of a Federation of Planets?  It can't happen overnight and I am glad they have planted the seeds so well.

I'm also happy to see some of the other vessels.  Remember our previous discussions on "How big is Starfleet?"  I think they are making sure to give us some idea how big it reall is and that bodes well for the detail and care the writers have been putting into the scripts of the show.  Did you catch the part where they mentioned that a second Warp Five ship was being built and should be ready in seven months?  That was prior to Enterprise leaving for the Expanse which means by the time the credits rolled they are four months away from a seond W5 vessel.  I am thinking we may well see that second ship speeding off to the Expanse by the middle of the next season to assist Enterprise.  Maybe they'll get blowed up!  Blowed up real good! 

I didn't mind the dogfight move too much.  It certainly sticks to the premise that the Klingons capture technology but aren't too sharp when it comes to using it, eh?  Humans developed their own and know how to utilize the history of more primitive strategies, which makes a lot of sense even if the execution of it in this episode was "simplified for the masses" so to speak.

"Defies the laws of physics" is just what I would expect the Vulcans to say.  Let's face it, even T'Pol can't seem to wrap her mind around the idea of Temporal Phenomenon.  It's holding true to the premise that Vulcans use very linear logic and just aren't able to progress as quickly as Humans.  That little tape they showed Archer to scare him out of going on the mission sure seemed to have baffled and frightened the Vulcans.  They seem to simply deny the existence of anything they can't explain with their current logic and data.  All the more fodder for how top explain how Humans will stride foward to form the Federation and the Vulcans will become an "also ran" culture.

I'm impressed by how they've moved ahead without completely abandoning the things that require some explanation for longtime fans.  I'm not sure that most of the longtime fans would be satisfied with anything that gets done anyway.  It's a horribly jaded fan base who seem to mirror the progessiveness of the Vulcan culture, isn't it?


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## uv23 (May 22, 2003)

Ho ho fear my criticism! I have returned from Edmonton after seeing the season finale of Enterprise! 

Know what? I didn't mind it. There were definitely some parts that I enjoyed and other parts that I know would have been better if this wasn't a family show. And other parts that could have just been done better over all.

Its hard to put a finger on it, but the pre-credits segment of Enterprise always sucks. I don't know if its general directorial issues or somethign specific. The beginning of this episode should have said "wow, look at that!" Instead it was rather weak.

I liked the scene where the enterprise was assisted by other federation ships. We've all wondered what kind of ships there are back home. It was a fun battle to watch.

I like how there were real consequeneces. 7 million people is a whole lot. But somehow, that huge fact seemed to be glossed over throughout the show. Maybe its because there were no scenes of the massive rescue effort or really any sign of the incident other than a big hole in the ground.

The scene with the vulcans going crazy almost made me laugh. It was basically a PG (not even) version of the "insane spaceship crew" scene from Event Horizon. It could have been done a lot better. As it is, it seemed quite camp.

The special effects were attrocious down on earth. Trip and Malcolm looked like they were on the set of Reboot while overlooking the valley of destruction.

Time travel is e. I wish they'd have done away with it altogether when moving on to this new direction.

Now I've got a headache so thats all the criticism I can manage for now.  But as I said, I still did enjoy this episode. It was reasonably effective and the klingon aspect of it worked well enough. Hopefully we'll see more hard action from Capt. Gentlefingers and less pussyfooting and genuflecting.


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## Mark (May 22, 2003)

We seem to be primarily on the same page with our views (and oddly, "no, I didn't read your post before typing out my responses to the previous posts, but damned if we don't think alike), but I do have a couple of comments...



			
				theT0rmented said:
			
		

> *I agree that T'Pol's indecision and decision wasn't handled all that well, but I liked the rest of the show.*




The only thing I thought they might do differently was to have some back and forth between the Vulcans, Starfleet Command and Archer via transmissions after T'Pol made her decision but it would really have been superfluous to do so.  We all know it took place off screen and that's enough for me.



			
				theT0rmented said:
			
		

> *For Tom:
> I liked that they took time to show the decisions being made, the retrofitting of the ship, etc. The second hour you wanted will probably be the first episode of season 3. They explained the time lapse (at least a few months in the dock, seven weeks to reach the expanse, and an unknown amount of time to get to Earth at the start). Did someone catch how long it took them to get to Earth at the start? I didn't hear anything, but maybe I missed it. *




IIRC seven weeks to reach Earth, at least two months (memorial service) to refit Enterprise, three months to the Expanse, are the rough estimates I drew from the dialog and plot.  I'll try to catch the rerun Sunday and confirm or revise those estimates.

Good to have an openmind on board for what I think will be an exciting new direction for the show!


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## Mark (May 22, 2003)

OK.  Now that I've played my usual part of rebuffing the detractors...  ...time to throw a few bones to the critics. 



			
				jasper said:
			
		

> *ok another so so episode
> gee is the poor little vulcan going to come to play with us. Well her contract says so.
> Ok 7+ Million and at least 2 months pass before the Enterprise shows.
> Humm Florida is what 20 to 300 feet about sea level. HOW deep was the valley they showed. Why wasn't more water in it. Hello it cut a new valley straight to coast thru cuba and into Venezuela!
> ...




You address three of the four problems I did have with the show.  

I am on board with the "why didn't water flow into the swath?" complaint.  It looks more devastated to have a gaping stretch but I see no way they could have avoided the water flowing in to fill the gap.

I'm not sure how the Klingons managed to scan that Enterprise was leaving dock, been close enough to do so, and not been detected by another Starfleet vessel or satelite in our solar system.  I'll have to look for an explanation during the rerun.

I'm also curious why they didn't give us at least a taste of the "General and the Marines" but I understand the potential problem with casting not having been done yet.  Still, they could have made mention of them or new quarters being added, or something.

The third problem I have is with "Quantum Dating" and I have no idea why someone else hasn't jumped all over this yet.  If something exists, no matter in what timeline, it must have been around for a period of time and I would think that it's elements would show to have been converted/transformed/mutated/refined or whatever "a certain amount of time ago" no matter at what point they would have been scanned.  To whit, if a device is manufactured 432 years before, but is brought forth in time 400 years, would it not scan as being manufactured 32 years before?  If something is manufactured 432 in the future, sits on a shelf for thirty-two days, is brought back in time 432 years, and sits in a hanger for two months wouldn't it scan as being manufactured three months ago?


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## Mallus (May 22, 2003)

It bored me. By then end I was paying greater attention to my battered copy of "Santiago: A Myth of the Far Future". Great book. One of the most fun SF adventures ever written.

The episode still felt inert to me, despite all of the action they tried to pack into it. They really need so new writers, and directors...

I think the teaser with Earth getting all carved up was one of the dullest FX sequences I've ever seen. No resonance or impact. It would have so easy to do better. Maybe start the shot with a strolling couple on the Golden Gate Bridge and do one of those CGImpossible pans up to low orbit and the probe materializing. Or at least start on an orbital monitoring stations with loud klaxons going off and crew frantically running about. 

I couldn't help but think of Babylon 5; the Narn outpost being anihilated by the ominous and graceful Shadow vessels, or Narn being bombed into the Stone Age as Londo looked on. These were excellent, dramtic uses of FX. 

Then the Klingon's attacking Archer in Solar space?? Hello, act of war, anyone? Enterprise frequently leaves me with the impression that scads of important exposition gets left on the cutting room floor to give the show that leaner, written-by-6th graders feel.

I liked Phlox's indignation over the Vulcan doctor. I almost liked Archer triumphantly flourishing the piece of ship minted in the future --despite the fact I can't figured out why the alien suicide-anihilator didn't blow the probe up. It was a suicide mission, right?

And it irked me that no-one asked Archer what he intended do in the Delphic Expanse, with his single ship and squad of Marines. Its an intelligence-gathering mission, right? Or is Archer going to go all R-Type on them and defeat the enemy race videogame style, 1 ship vs. a fleet, with only three continues? Or fewer, depending on the ratings...

Arrgghh, this has become a rant. It was another load of missed oppourtunities. But I'll tune in next season, because I'm a big sucker... but hey, I've been watching Trek since I was 4.


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## Mark (May 22, 2003)

uv23 said:
			
		

> *Ho ho fear my criticism! I have returned from Edmonton after seeing the season finale of Enterprise!  *




Welcome home.  Clean place, that Canada, innit it?  Beautiful country. 



			
				uv23 said:
			
		

> *Know what? I didn't mind it. There were definitely some parts that I enjoyed and other parts that I know would have been better if this wasn't a family show. And other parts that could have just been done better over all. *




I'd like some more info on what you think could have been geared toward an adult audience.  Just curious... 



			
				uv23 said:
			
		

> *Its hard to put a finger on it, but the pre-credits segment of Enterprise always sucks. I don't know if its general directorial issues or somethign specific. The beginning of this episode should have said "wow, look at that!" Instead it was rather weak. *




Budget.  I like that they are trying to be spectacular but there are certain things they should avoid when the budget won't let them carry it off, IMO.



			
				uv23 said:
			
		

> *I liked the scene where the enterprise was assisted by other federation ships. We've all wondered what kind of ships there are back home. It was a fun battle to watch. *




That was nice.  They need to do more of that but, again, budget may be interfering with the prospect of it.



			
				uv23 said:
			
		

> *I like how there were real consequeneces. 7 million people is a whole lot. But somehow, that huge fact seemed to be glossed over throughout the show. Maybe its because there were no scenes of the massive rescue effort or really any sign of the incident other than a big hole in the ground. *




Back to budget again.  No money for enough extras to truly show a huge catastrophe with many, many casualties.  One alternative is stock footage from other disasters but I do not think that would go over very well.



			
				uv23 said:
			
		

> *The scene with the vulcans going crazy almost made me laugh. It was basically a PG (not even) version of the "insane spaceship crew" scene from Event Horizon. It could have been done a lot better. As it is, it seemed quite camp. *




Didn't bother me all that much.  I'm glad they scrambled it or it would have been even more campy.  Let's not forget how seriously campy most of TOS actually was... 



			
				uv23 said:
			
		

> *The special effects were attrocious down on earth. Trip and Malcolm looked like they were on the set of Reboot while overlooking the valley of destruction. *




Again, budget.  They do what they can with models and have no money for the kind of CGI required to satisfy an audience used to seeing top-notch CGI in present day films.  Not much they can do about that except avoid trying to do the spectacular scenes with a budget that only allows for the semi-spectacular.  I'm glad, I guess, that they give us a taste rather than not try at all. *shrug*



			
				uv23 said:
			
		

> *Time travel is e. I wish they'd have done away with it altogether when moving on to this new direction. *




Gotta clean things up.  I'm still waiting for the time when they can get a loot at this guy from the future and leave a time capsule with his name and address.  Then we can watch a scene where he's gloating to Archer and Archer smugly mentions that he's left a note for the future.  At that point a couple of future guards can walk up behind the future guy, take him into custody and wink at Archer saying, "Thanks for the tip, Captain." 



			
				uv23 said:
			
		

> *Now I've got a headache so thats all the criticism I can manage for now.  But as I said, I still did enjoy this episode. It was reasonably effective and the klingon aspect of it worked well enough. Hopefully we'll see more hard action from Capt. Gentlefingers and less pussyfooting and genuflecting. *




It does look like they've pissed him off finally, eh?  I like the scene where he and Trip are drinking and Archer comments on just how many "bad guys" they keep running into.  Seems like he's ready to clean up space no matter the cost and get that Federation started, eh?


----------



## Wolf72 (May 22, 2003)

ee gads you guys sure type a lot!

anyway, I was pleased by the episode:

GO ARCHER!!! woo hoo, I was extremely pleased when he took out that bird of prey 

I think T'pol is going to get a starfleet commision, maybe be the first alien to become a starfleet officer?

Trip: his anger is annoying, understandable, but it seems so ... 'all consuming' ?


----------



## Staffan (May 22, 2003)

uv23 said:
			
		

> *The scene with the vulcans going crazy almost made me laugh. It was basically a PG (not even) version of the "insane spaceship crew" scene from Event Horizon. It could have been done a lot better. As it is, it seemed quite camp.*



One thing that occured to me... what if the ship was boarded by Romulans? They look just like Vulcans and they have cloaking tech so they could have approached and attacked without being noticed...


----------



## myrdden (May 22, 2003)

Mark said:
			
		

> *
> I think we'll be seeing one of the best ST series ever.  One that is willing to bend the rules a bit in various ways to give us something new, while still keeping some of the traditions alive for old timers like myself.  *




There's a fine line between delivering something fresh and new (and isn't that ironic for being a prequel that deals with the past?) and "milking" a franchise.  The show has been on the cusp for me all this season and I have to admit that the staff have a lot of work ahead of them to regain my solid interest in the show.



			
				Mark said:
			
		

> *
> No waste for this kid who used to watch as a child when Roddenbury first talked some network execs into putting Sci-Fi into primetime.  It's kinda funny in a way that most of the people who call themselves Trek fans didn't even start watching until just after it had been cancelled and was run as a weekend filler during the daytime (and most not until it got into it's second round of reruns years later).
> *





Hey...I have to plead innocent on this one!  I wasn't even around for the original series and could only catch it in reruns in the 80's and of course the motion picture.  But believe me when I was old enough to handle the remote (which was a huge feat back then because remotes were modeled adter cemment bricks) I loyally watching TOS.

Ahhhhh....good times... 

Myrdden


----------



## myrdden (May 22, 2003)

Mark said:
			
		

> *
> The third problem I have is with "Quantum Dating" and I have no idea why someone else hasn't jumped all over this yet.  If something exists, no matter in what timeline, it must have been around for a period of time and I would think that it's elements would show to have been converted/transformed/mutated/refined or whatever "a certain amount of time ago" no matter at what point they would have been scanned.  To whit, if a device is manufactured 432 years before, but is brought forth in time 400 years, would it not scan as being manufactured 32 years before?  If something is manufactured 432 in the future, sits on a shelf for thirty-two days, is brought back in time 432 years, and sits in a hanger for two months wouldn't it scan as being manufactured three months ago? *




I had this problem too.  It was a rather contrived way to "prove" time travel to the Admiral I think.  Also with the liklihood of alternate realities caused by this series, how would Quantum dating be effective at all?  (And I can't even think of a plausible explanation for the process to begin with).

I also questioned the reason behind testing a prototype weapon against your enemy, which alerts them to your intentions.  If you are building a larger, more powerful weapon, why send the prototype first?  Maybe the Xindi aren't all that swift?

Myrdden


----------



## danzig138 (May 23, 2003)

I watched all of last Season's Enterprise, and the first two of this season and quit after that because it just wasn't good. I figured I'd check out this new direction, so I watched the finale, and let's just say that I doubt I'll be adding it to my watch list. The season, IMO, ended as dully as it began.


----------



## John Crichton (May 23, 2003)

Well, that was interesting.  I wanted a second hour.  Honestly, most of that Technobabble, I just ignore.  However they want to use it in the plot is fine by me as long as they don't overuse it (like they did with 7's Borg implants in VOY).

Not perfect but there were flashes of brilliance in there.  Much has already been said about what was good and bad so I'll just say that I read an article (on IGN I think) about Enterprise taking a page from Farscape's book.  While I don't really see it, taking it in that direction is fine by me.  I'd like to see some more character growth next season between some key characters:

- Malcolm & Trip:  Their dynamic was a little strained in this ep.  Trip was a little out of character with his rage but I blame that on the short episode.  I wanted to see more.  His character should grow from this.  Malcolm (and Archer) should be forced to calm him down at many points making for some interesting moments.

- Archer & T'Pol:  I have no problem with them having a Kirk/Spock relationship.  Just do it well.

- T'pol & Phlox:  Already solid.  He keeps her grounded I think.

Hoshi & Everyone:  Okay, she has been seriously ignored the later half of Season 2.  Give this woman more to do!  I think the communications officer will be just as vital as the extra security forces in the upcoming eps.  Maybe she can develop a friendship or something with one of the military grunts that has been put on the ship.

- Archer & Trip:  They are obviously buddies and have been for a while.  Archer will put up with alot from him, moreso than other ship member but he also expects more from him.  I would like to see the 2 of them have to experience more together.  Bring in another character to create a better thinktank that is better than just Archer bouncing ideas off everyone (T'pol?) and going from his guts.

- A character to stir the pot:  One of those military types would be a perfect candidate.  It would divide Malcolm a bit and add some spice to things.

I would also like to see more character backgrounds and flashbacks.  I loved how Archer & Trip became friends.  It's also a damn shame that Archer's old rival had to die as he was a solid character.  I'd love to see how Archer and Hoshi came to know each other as they obviously knew each other from before the first Enterprise mission.

And finally, I hope they don't botch the obviously approaching field commission that Archer will award T'Pol.  Either don't show it or do it with some pride & flare as it will be a big first for Starfleet.  And please God I hope they make the Xindi interesting.  If they are half as cool as the Scarrans from Farscape I will be pleased.    Without a solid villain this show will die...


----------



## Kesh (May 23, 2003)

Personally, I felt that this should've actually been three or four episodes at the beginning of season three, rather than crammed in one season finale episode. It should've been a normal episode, with three minutes at the end where Enterprise recieves the news and is told to come home.

I would've liked to see some of the journey from Earth to the Expanse, with the crew still coming to terms with the attack, fears over what they're facing, dealing with the Klingon threat in a somewhat more believable manner, etc.


----------



## Mark (May 23, 2003)

Wolf72 said:
			
		

> *ee gads you guys sure type a lot! *




_*fingers bleeding...*_



			
				Staffan said:
			
		

> *One thing that occured to me... what if the ship was boarded by Romulans? They look just like Vulcans and they have cloaking tech so they could have approached and attacked without being noticed... *




Interesting thought...



			
				myrdden said:
			
		

> *... believe me when I was old enough to handle the remote (which was a huge feat back then because remotes were modeled adter cemment bricks)*




Was it called a "clicker" because it actually made a clicking sound, or just called a "clicker" out of tradition...?



			
				John Crichton said:
			
		

> *I wanted a second hour.*




Agreed.

Regarding Trip's new attittude, I'm not surprised.  Losing his baby sister seems reason enough for me.  They've established pretty well that he can't find closure without vengeance, IMO.  Just wait til he bears a Xindi Baby!

I'm glad they didn't drag out the journeys to and from Earth.  That'd more or less what we've been watching for the last two years with the exception that they have a definite destination.

The new direction required a certain amount of shaking off the last two seasons perceived malaise (though I was never personally bored) for it to work with most longtime fans.  Just a cursory reading of the current critics shows that even might be too little.


----------



## Viking Bastard (May 24, 2003)

Again, I decided to download this episode.

Overall, I liked it. That is, the episode itself wasn't inspiring as such, but it's a good setup.
This is actually a very good cliffhanger, a good example of how to end a season (and I hate 
season cliffhangers). 

I like how they took care of the Klingon arc. It didn't "Whoah!" me in any way, but it got the 
job gone. Got rid of Duras while keeping all doors open for a Klingon comeback. I mean, I'd 
loved a much more snazzier way of doing it, something that'd surprise me and leave a mark
on the series forever, but y'know, this IS still Braga. On VOY, this plotline would just have 
been ignored and never be mentioned again. There was certain darkness over the episode 
and you could actually notice the score (which was suitible). 

So... there's not much that really stands out, but I can't think of any major peeves either.

*7/10*


----------



## orbitalfreak (May 24, 2003)

Mark said:
			
		

> *
> Regarding Trip's new attittude, I'm not surprised.  Losing his baby sister seems reason enough for me.
> *




I missed the part where they said how old his sister was.  Does "baby" in this instance mean "She's my youngest sister / she's the baby of the family," or does "baby" mean "under five years old?"


----------



## Mark (May 24, 2003)

orbitalfreak said:
			
		

> *I missed the part where they said how old his sister was.  Does "baby" in this instance mean "She's my youngest sister / she's the baby of the family," or does "baby" mean "under five years old?" *




Youngest/younger.  They don't say exactly but they imply she is old enough to be out of diapers, IIRC.  I'll pay closer attention on Sunday when it's rerun.  I think I remember someone asking him or him saying something like _last time they talked_ rather than _last time he saw her_.  He also points out the movie house and I think mention they used to go there for films.   I'd guess adolescent or young adult.


----------



## John Crichton (May 24, 2003)

Viking Bastard said:
			
		

> *Again, I decided to download this episode.*



I don't mean to harp, but you may not want to mention that around here.  It could get Morrus into trouble.  There are laws or something about it, or so I have been told.  I wasn't previously aware of them until I started posting here...


----------



## Viking Bastard (May 24, 2003)

I can mention it I believe, never has been a problem with that 
in past,  I just can't distribute it or give links or talk about the 
overall _how_ of me downloading the ep. Y'know. Semantics.

But point taken.


----------



## myrdden (May 24, 2003)

orbitalfreak said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I missed the part where they said how old his sister was.  Does "baby" in this instance mean "She's my youngest sister / she's the baby of the family," or does "baby" mean "under five years old?" *




It was mentioned that she was an architect, so I think it's safe to assume that it is a younger sister and not a child sibling.

Either that or Viagra has come a long way.

Myrdden


----------



## myrdden (May 24, 2003)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> *Malcolm & Trip:  Their dynamic was a little strained in this ep.  Trip was a little out of character with his rage but I blame that on the short episode.  I wanted to see more.  His character should grow from this.  Malcolm (and Archer) should be forced to calm him down at many points making for some interesting moments.*




That will come as the seaon progresses.  Although the show hasn't been spectacular for me, and it has been boreing more often than entertaining, I will say that the main characters are interesting and usually well acted.



			
				John Crichton said:
			
		

> *- Archer & T'Pol:  I have no problem with them having a Kirk/Spock relationship.  Just do it well.. *




I would be ok with that as well.  However, instead of a Kirk/Spock relationship (which would draw criticism for being a blatant rip-off) how about a McCoy/Spock relationship?  Both characters having a well earned respect for one another, as well as a close friendship, but they are constantly at odds with their respective outlooks on life?  It sort of there right now, but it needs some more refinement.

Bottom line - just do it well...



			
				John Crichton said:
			
		

> *T'pol & Phlox:  Already solid.  He keeps her grounded I think.*




I like the Phlox character but I feel that his pressence detracts from the consept of the show.  This is supposed to be the explorarion of space by humans.  Why not have a human doctor who must struggle with the knowledge that human medicine doesn't know everything?  The Phlox character seems to be well experienced with space medicine, which would be vital on the mission, but sometimes seems a bit too convienient.  I really do like the character so this is only a minor nitpick.



			
				John Crichton said:
			
		

> * Archer & Trip:  They are obviously buddies and have been for a while.  Archer will put up with alot from him, moreso than other ship member but he also expects more from him.  I would like to see the 2 of them have to experience more together.  Bring in another character to create a better thinktank that is better than just Archer bouncing ideas off everyone (T'pol?) and going from his guts.*




I'll agree with this.  Of all the characters, I feel Archer is the weakest.  I think this will be addressed by having more background story as the season continues.  I thought that the episode "First Flight" was decent, but I was a bit unsatisified with Archer being a test pilot.  Just a personal preference I suppose.

I wonder - is the show trying to create a Kirk/Spock/McCoy relationship between Archer/T'Pol/Trip?  There are some similarities.



			
				John Crichton said:
			
		

> *And finally, I hope they don't botch the obviously approaching field commission that Archer will award T'Pol.  Either don't show it or do it with some pride & flare as it will be a big first for Starfleet.  And please God I hope they make the Xindi interesting.  If they are half as cool as the Scarrans from Farscape I will be pleased.    Without a solid villain this show will die... *




I think they will have to tread very carefully with awarding T'Pol a field commission.  It was stated that Spock was the first vulcan to enlist in Starfleet.  Now technically it was the Federation and not Earth but splitting hairs like that could cause further problems for hard-core fans.  I think they have setup a plausible storyline whereby Archer can use the Klingons as a reason for not being able to take T'Pol home.  T'Pol gets to stay on the ship and she doesn't need to resign her position.  I'm just thinking out loud.

And I absolutely agree...the Xindi had better be interesting else this whole change of direction will be a waste of time.

Myrdden


----------



## el-remmen (May 24, 2003)

> . It's kinda funny in a way that most of the people who call themselves Trek fans didn't even start watching until just after it had been cancelled and was run as a weekend filler during the daytime (and most not until it got into it's second round of reruns years later




I don't see how _when_ you first started watching the show and franchise has to do with how much of a fan of it you are.

Also, bad science doesn't bother me so much when it comes to Star Trek (as long as it isn't too crazy) - it is the characters, stories and situations that matter to me. . . 

So the rift cut into Florida didn;t have enough water in it?  Who cares about such things, seems like a silly detail to worry about. . .  The quantum dating thing is much more glaring - though I can't imagine another way to show proof - I would have had then go into the Expanse on faith alone - faith vs. logic being the recurring conflict between humans and vulcans through out the star trek franchise.

I did like that they blew up th Klingon ship - which will (hoepfully) start the precedent for a war with the Klingons in the future.

Maybe they'll run into Romulans in the Expanse and something about the area will make video contact impossible - thus eventually instigating the war with the Romulans.

See, I am not as inteested in Enterprise as a way to do "new" things - but as a way to explore old things - stories, legends and histories we first heard about in the past series.

I think its silly to complain about "the same old villians" and such - they are aren't "old" in this series and good writing can capture that awe and mystery again. . . also, just because we know what is gonna happen doesn't mean it isn;t entertaining.   If you watch a war film about WWII does it ruin it b/c you know the Nazis are going to lose? 

Or to take a sci fi example - the new star wars movies are not disappointing because we know Anakin is going to become Darth Vader - that is what we pay to see - it is disappointing because Lucas is doing a horrible job of _showing_ it -  Enterprise is disappointing to me because they are doing little of showing that stuff I always heard about, but want to see. . . 

I still think that newer fans could really enjoy that stuff too, seeing it for the first time.


----------



## John Crichton (May 24, 2003)

Sounds like we are on similar pages.  Allow me a few short responses.  


			
				myrdden said:
			
		

> *That will come as the seaon progresses.  Although the show hasn't been spectacular for me, and it has been boreing more often than entertaining, I will say that the main characters are interesting and usually well acted. *



Agreed.  The acting has been good and I they do a good job with what they are given.  I actually enjoy all the characters which is a first for me on a Trek show.  There is usually one in there that I don't like all that much.  Time will tell.  


			
				myrdden said:
			
		

> *I would be ok with that as well.  However, instead of a Kirk/Spock relationship (which would draw criticism for being a blatant rip-off) how about a McCoy/Spock relationship?  Both characters having a well earned respect for one another, as well as a close friendship, but they are constantly at odds with their respective outlooks on life?  It sort of there right now, but it needs some more refinement.
> 
> Bottom line - just do it well... *



I would be cool with an adversarial relationship as those are usually more entertaining than an more conventional friendship.  It has been hinted at that there may be a potential romance in the works for the two characters.  Now, that would be interesting if done correctly.  Yes, it could be soap-opera-ish but these things DO happen, just rarely onscreen.  And if done well, really do wonders for the overall story as it creates a bunch of natural situations.

And I really don't care what they do with the Archer/T'pol dynamic as long as it works.  It's the most important relationship of the show so it has to be at least solid.  The only thing of greater importance is the main antagonist.







			
				myrdden said:
			
		

> *I like the Phlox character but I feel that his pressence detracts from the consept of the show.  This is supposed to be the explorarion of space by humans.  Why not have a human doctor who must struggle with the knowledge that human medicine doesn't know everything?  The Phlox character seems to be well experienced with space medicine, which would be vital on the mission, but sometimes seems a bit too convienient.  I really do like the character so this is only a minor nitpick. *



I sometimes feel that having a human doctor would make things more interesting.  However, I really like the character's contrast to the humans.  Humanity is learning but so is Phlox.  Plus, we get to learn about him and his culture.  Since Trek has all but eliminated inter-human racial and cultural problems/tensions we have to look elsewhere for conflict so aliens are next best thing.  They haven't used the doctor not being human as a Deus Ex Machina yet, so I am happy with that.  


			
				myrdden said:
			
		

> *I'll agree with this.  Of all the characters, I feel Archer is the weakest.  I think this will be addressed by having more background story as the season continues.  I thought that the episode "First Flight" was decent, but I was a bit unsatisified with Archer being a test pilot.  Just a personal preference I suppose.
> 
> I wonder - is the show trying to create a Kirk/Spock/McCoy relationship between Archer/T'Pol/Trip?  There are some similarities. *



Well, every successful Trek series has had a really interesting relationship between the Captain and the science officer (Kirk/Spock, Picard/Data, Sisko/Dax) so having one here would just be keeping in line with the formula.

As for Archer being just a test pilot, he was one of Earth's best which seemed to be really important.  I had no problem with his position in that show.  


			
				myrdden said:
			
		

> *I think they will have to tread very carefully with awarding T'Pol a field commission.  It was stated that Spock was the first vulcan to enlist in Starfleet.  Now technically it was the Federation and not Earth but splitting hairs like that could cause further problems for hard-core fans.  I think they have setup a plausible storyline whereby Archer can use the Klingons as a reason for not being able to take T'Pol home.  T'Pol gets to stay on the ship and she doesn't need to resign her position.  I'm just thinking out loud.*



I agree about the treading lightly which is why a field commission could do the trick.  She never enrolled in Starfleet therefore keeping Spock's importance intact.  Additionally, I don't think Phlox is officially a Starfleet officer as he is never in uniform.  Well, that an the whole interspecies exchange thing.    I guess the one problem will be that she is the second highest ranking officer on the ship.  I just hope they handle it well.  They have said that she is getting a new uniform (or did they actually _say_ catsuit?) next season so maybe that means something.  I think it would be a shame to have her reduced in rank (and therefore influence) on the ship as it's fun to see her remind Trip that she outranks him.    You just know it drives him and probably Malcolm nuts.


----------



## Viking Bastard (May 24, 2003)

> I wonder - is the show trying to create a Kirk/Spock/McCoy relationship between Archer/T'Pol/Trip? There are some similarities.



Yup. They are. B&B said so before the show started. Honest. If 
you dig up all 'em old articles and interviews with 'em (particularly 
Berman, he's a much better media pimp) you'll find many statements
on it.


----------



## John Crichton (May 24, 2003)

Viking Bastard said:
			
		

> *
> Yup. They are. B&B said so before the show started. Honest. If
> you dig up all 'em old articles and interviews with 'em (particularly
> Berman, he's a much better media pimp) you'll find many statements on it. *



Really?  I read about the Kirk/Spock influnce but not the Big 3.  I don't doubt it...


----------



## Orius (May 25, 2003)

Tom Cashel said:
			
		

> *SPOILERS
> 
> I thought this episode was terrible.
> 
> ...




I generally agree.  This seemed to have a lot of elements of _Trek_ we've seen many times before.  And as for Braga's statement of needing to do something fresh, why then did they shoehorn Klingons into the plot?  They're the most overused race in _Trek_.  

It wasn't too bad overall, though.  Just not something overly exciting.  Duras must have been one stupid Klingon; he chooses to attack Enterprise just as it reaches the solar system.   What an idiot!  Why did the Klingons even let him go back out after Archer after making that blunder?   Still, it would have been cool if they didn't kill him off and kept him around as a recurring nuisance.

They also slipped in some Suliban and that guy from the future, though they seemed like little more than a plot device.  

And T'Pol's staying on Enterprise seemed contrived and not at all logical, I think that really needed a better approach than it was given.

Anyway, I think I'll just have to wait and see how this plot line develops before passing judgement.


----------



## Orius (May 25, 2003)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> *Well, every successful Trek series has had a really interesting relationship between the Captain and the science officer (Kirk/Spock, Picard/Data, Sisko/Dax) so having one here would just be keeping in line with the formula.
> *




Come to think of it, did _Voyager_ even _have_ a science officer?  Not that I recall.


----------



## fba827 (May 25, 2003)

Orius said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Come to think of it, did Voyager even have a science officer?  Not that I recall. *




What was Kim?  I think he sat in the place the science officer _would_ sit.

If not Kim, then, definately, seven took that role when she became the chief user of the astrometrics facility on the ship 
(even if not by official rank/title, she was the main science officer at that point)


----------



## fba827 (May 25, 2003)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> *Really?  I read about the Kirk/Spock influnce but not the Big 3.  I don't doubt it... *




Yeah, now that someone mentioned it - I _do_ recall reading lots of the early promotion for the show stating how that was one of the key things they were trying to recreate - that trio's relationship with these three specifically.


----------



## John Crichton (May 25, 2003)

fba827 said:
			
		

> *What was Kim?  I think he sat in the place the science officer would sit.
> 
> If not Kim, then, definately, seven took that role when she became the chief user of the astrometrics facility on the ship
> (even if not by official rank/title, she was the main science officer at that point) *



I don't recall a science officer at all for Voyager.  I guess Seven would qualify as she did deal with science a great deal.  But I wouldn't characterize her relationship with Janeway as key to the show or even that interesting.


----------



## fba827 (May 25, 2003)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> *I don't recall a science officer at all for Voyager.  I guess Seven would qualify as she did deal with science a great deal.  But I wouldn't characterize her relationship with Janeway as key to the show or even that interesting. *




Oh - I completely agree.  Their relationship was not the kirk/mccoy type relationship.  I was merely answering the other person's question as to whether or not there _was_ a science officer on Voy.  Wasn't meant as a response to the questions about sci-officer/captain relationships in general 

(while they did have a relationship, it was like a mother-daughter sort of thing, not the best-friend/co-worker-at-odds sort of thing.)

Maybe it's just something confined to the *male* captains - if you are a male captain on star trek, then you must have a certain relationship with your science officer 

(not meant as a gender issue.. just making a joke about the pattern that was formed).


----------



## John Crichton (May 25, 2003)

fba827 said:
			
		

> *Oh - I completely agree.  Their relationship was not the kirk/mccoy type relationship.  I was merely answering the other person's question as to whether or not there was a science officer on Voy.  Wasn't meant as a response to the questions about sci-officer/captain relationships in general *



All good.  I actually wasn't responding in dissagreement or correction, I was trying to add to what you said and confirm that there was a Captain/Science officer connection on each iteration of Trek rather than just gloss over it like I did in my original post.  I tend to leave Voyager out of Trek conversations because of my negative feelings towards it...


----------



## Eternalknight (May 25, 2003)

I liked the episode.  The main goal of any cliffhanger, obviously, is to leave people wanting to see the second part - and personally I can't wait to see how they handle the Delphic Expanse.  





> *Did you catch the part where they mentioned that a second Warp Five ship was being built and should be ready in seven months?*




Mark, I think they mentioned that the NX-02 would be ready in fourteen months.  I could be wrong though...


----------



## fba827 (May 25, 2003)

Eternalknight said:
			
		

> *Mark, I think they mentioned that the NX-02 would be ready in fourteen months.  I could be wrong though... *




I seem to recall it being 7 months as well (but I could be remembering wrong and the power of suggestion by reading Mark's post first has clouded my memory  )


----------



## Mark (May 25, 2003)

fba827 said:
			
		

> *I seem to recall it being 7 months as well (but I could be remembering wrong and the power of suggestion by reading Mark's post first has clouded my memory  ) *




_These are not the droids..._


----------



## John Crichton (May 25, 2003)

Okay, just watched it again.  Tivo saved it for me.  Joy.  Here are the numbers and various tidbits...
Arrival date back to Earth:  4/24/2153 (note that startrek.com puts the previous ep on 3/21/2153)
@ Warp 5 it's about a 3 month trip to the region inside the Expanse (NOT specifically the Xindi homeworld, they will have to look for it).
time till NX-02 completion:  14 months
General Casey - Archer requested men from him (note: non-Starfleet personel)
8-9 didn't make up their minds about staying aboard
Photonic torpedoes - 50x range, higher yield (adjustable)
Day of Rememberance happened a couple (2) months ago.  7 million dead.
T'pol not going back to Vulcan would mean immediate dissmissal.  She resigned anyway.
Warp 5 for 7 seven weeks to get to the Expanse.
6 hours for a vulcan ship to penatrate the clouds
.2 impulse was the speed Archer commanded Mayweather to take entering the clouds surrounding the Expanse.
I just threw the any potential points of contension in there as well.  There is some guesswork to be done but you figure out times pretty well from the episode without reaching too far.

edit:  formatting & spelling


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## Mark (May 25, 2003)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> *Okay, just watched it again.  Tivo saved it for me.  Joy.  Here are the numbers and various tidbits...
> 
> 
> Arrival date back to Earth:  4/24/2153 (note that startrek.com puts the previous ep on 3/21/2153)
> ...




Thanks.

So does this mean that the NX-02 ship will be ready to go roughly by the beginning of the fourth season?


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## fba827 (May 25, 2003)

Mark said:
			
		

> *So does this mean that the NX-02 ship will be ready to go roughly by the beginning of the fourth season?  *




Well, since the amount of time shown in each episode (and shown inbetween each episode) varies greatly, I'm not certain you can make that assumption 

Then again, now that I think about it -- regardless of that variability, they usually do tend to refer to each season as "years" ("We left Earth two years ago," etc...) but, who knows?


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## Eternalknight (May 25, 2003)

Someone fill me in:  Did they leave Earth in 2150 or 51?


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## John Crichton (May 25, 2003)

Eternalknight said:
			
		

> *Someone fill me in:  Did they leave Earth in 2150 or 51? *



April 2151.


			
				Mark said:
			
		

> *So does this mean that the NX-02 ship will be ready to go roughly by the beginning of the fourth season? *



I think that is a safe assumption based on the currect way they are handling time.  Each season has "started" and "ended" in April of their respective years.  The NX-02 will be completed in June of 2154, otherwise known as just in time for Archer and crew to have another ship waiting for them when they come limping back to spacedock from the Expanse in a borrowed Klingon ship which they....  

But seriously, yeah.  If I was a writer these dates would drive me bonkers.


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## Richards (May 25, 2003)

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the one obvious analogy to the plot of this episode (well, it was immediately obvious to me, anyway, and also to my oldest son, who watched it from halfway across the country, so I can site two separate sources): September 11th.

To me, this episode simply _screamed_ 9-11.  Here's the Earth, sitting fat, dumb, and happy, when out of the blue comes a major, devastating attack from an unexpected source.  Extreme damage is incurred.  The reaction is first one of disbelief and shock, followed quickly by anger and a desire for retaliation (especially on the part of Trip, who lost someone close to him in the attack).

I don't wish to start a political discussion about the terrorist attacks of 9-11, but this episode (to me, at least) seems a sort of parallel and possible catharsis to the 9-11 attacks.  In real life, the US suffered an unexpected attack, found out who was responsible, and was eager to punish those who engineered the carnage.  We're still eager to do so, but Al-Qaeda and Osama bin Laden are apparently still around.  On _Enterprise_, we see a similar situation occurring (on a much bigger scale: 7 million people dead as a result of the Xindi attack), and we see Archer and crew heading off to go do something about it.  Since this is a TV show, we're pretty certain that, even though it might take the better part of a season, we'll get to see the good guys triumphant in the end.

Now, this might all just be in my head, but I have to wonder if these parallels were intentional.  My guess: yep.

Hopefully, I haven't crossed any "political discussion" lines by bringing this up.  If so, I'll bear the moderators no ill will if they want to edit this post to oblivion.  (I'll just pretend it was hit by one of those new-fangled photonic torpedoes.)  

Johnathan


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## Mark (May 25, 2003)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> *...just in time for Archer and crew to have another ship waiting for them when they come limping back to spacedock from the Expanse in a borrowed Klingon ship which they...*




Purchased from their new allies the Duras clones.  Meanwhile, T'Pol has been brought back to life in a borrowed SG-1 sarcaphogus but has been reincarnated in a velveteen creature with ping pong ball eyes who sounds suspiciously like Frank Oz.  Trip has given birth again, this time to a Xindi child who he has vowed will not live to see the age of his deceased baby-sister.  Phlox is addicted to dilithi-crack that he smokes from a miniature replica of a warp core with his new love Hoshi who has taken to wearing nothing but veils, one of which is removed each episode.  Malcolm shakes his head and services the General and his troops in an effort to be accepted by the military men.  In an oversight, Mayweather is completely left out of season three but still collects a paycheck after marrying Braga's daughter off-camera.

Well, it would be a new direction... 

*EDIT* Good point, JR.


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## Richards (May 25, 2003)

Oh, another thing I wanted to point out about this episode: the death of the Klingon, Duras.  If I remember correctly, when his ship was blown up, didn't we see the "command section" of the ship (the front part of the ship, as is common with Klingon vessels) go spiraling away from the massive explosion?  That, to me, says the people behind the show have given themselves a plot "out" if they even want to bring Duras back.  All they have to do is have that section of the ship sealed off.  The Klingons can always be encountered by another alien ship, which they then take over and use as their own.

Hey, it worked for Darth Vader at the end of _Star Wars_, didn't it?  His "modified Tie fighter" looked like it was destroyed, but he turned out okay, right?   

Johnathan


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## John Crichton (May 25, 2003)

Mark said:
			
		

> *Purchased from their new allies the Duras clones.  Meanwhile, T'Pol has been brought back to life in a borrowed SG-1 sarcaphogus but has been reincarnated in a velveteen creature with ping pong ball eyes who sounds suspiciously like Frank Oz.  Trip has given birth again, this time to a Xindi child who he has vowed will not live to see the age of his deceased baby-sister.  Phlox is addicted to dilithi-crack that he smokes from a miniature replica of a warp core with his new love Hoshi who has taken to wearing nothing but veils, one of which is removed each episode.  Malcolm shakes his head and services the General and his troops in an effort to be accepted by the military men.  In an oversight, Mayweather is completely left out of season three but still collects a paycheck after marrying Braga's daughter off-camera.
> 
> Well, it would be a new direction...  *



LOL!! 

I _knew_ you wouldn't be able to resist running with that!


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## John Crichton (May 25, 2003)

Richards said:
			
		

> *Oh, another thing I wanted to point out about this episode: the death of the Klingon, Duras.  If I remember correctly, when his ship was blown up, didn't we see the "command section" of the ship (the front part of the ship, as is common with Klingon vessels) go spiraling away from the massive explosion?  That, to me, says the people behind the show have given themselves a plot "out" if they even want to bring Duras back.  All they have to do is have that section of the ship sealed off.  The Klingons can always be encountered by another alien ship, which they then take over and use as their own.*



Yep, I made sure to watch and there were 2 (maybe 3) huge chucks of the Klingon ship still intact after the explosion.  I was thinking the same thing as to being able to bring Duras back.  There is no reason to kill him off just to have another Klingon with the same temperment hunt Archer down later.  Seems to me like B&B watched Trek 3 & 5 before writing the last few eps of this season...  

John "who liked ALL the original cast Trek films" Crichton


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## Orius (May 25, 2003)

fba827 said:
			
		

> *
> 
> What was Kim?  I think he sat in the place the science officer would sit.
> 
> ...




Kim wasn't the science officer, he was the ops officer.   I concede somewhat about Seven, but she really wasn't a science officer either.  I'm not really sure what her official designation on the crew was.


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## John Crichton (May 25, 2003)

Orius said:
			
		

> *Kim wasn't the science officer, he was the ops officer.   I concede somewhat about Seven, but she really wasn't a science officer either.  I'm not really sure what her official designation on the crew was. *



Someone can feel free to correct me, but she didn't have a designation or even a position on the ship.


Also:  Because it was brought up before about the age of Trip's sister it should be noted that he used to stand up for her when they were younger which would make her an adult now.


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## Erik Mona (May 25, 2003)

Allow me to offer a somewhat different viewpoint.

I came to Star Trek with the original movies, saw a few of the original series episodes on reruns, and fell in love with the Next Generation, eventually seeing every single episode. While I can't even bear to watch 98% of those shows on re-runs now because I find them so dated, boring, and horrible, there was something about that show that hooked me instantly and held me until the very last episode.

I didn't care for the first couple of seasons of Deep Space 9, but I eventually learned to love that show, too, especially as they got closer to the end and it became more and more a political drama. The last couple seasons mark a Trek "high-water mark" for me.

Voyager was a bitter disappointment, and aside from a few episodes in which they brought in 7 of 9 and the Borg Queen, I largely ignored the last five seasons of that show. Judging by the ratings, I was part of a mass exodus of Star Trek fans.

When the new show came out, I took stock of the situation. Same production team. Odd "set in the past" format that seemed at odds with the "canonical" information I knew about the show. Folk music opening. Without ever watching the show, I happpily wrote it off. Up until last night, I'd _never_ seen an episode of Enterprise, and I was content to live a life completely absent of Star Trek.

"The Expanse" was written for viewers exactly like me. I read all the quibbles and complaints in this thread with an arched eyebrow. I'm sure the producers are glad that many of you regular viewers liked the episode, but I'm also certain you're not the episode's target market, and that trekkie complaints about water rushing into canyons and quantum dating problems (valid as both are from a scientific perspective) are of little concern to Braga and Berman, who are trying to save their show (and probably their careers).

If Enterprise is going to succeed as a show and as a financial enterprise, it's got to attract more viewers. The logical place to start is with viewers like me, who once had an affinity for Star Trek but who had lost faith in the "franchise runners" and were willing to give it up.

Like I said above, I've _never_ seen an episode of Enterprise. Here's what I saw last night:

* By far the most exciting and visually compelling Star Trek space battle I've ever seen. Yes, the "whip around and shoot them from behind" maneuver was a bit cliche, but it looked _spectacular_. I have no idea if all Enterpise space battles have looked this cool so far, but the special effects technology of this show is _leaps and bounds_ better than its predecessors. The ships seem to have a "weight" to them that's been missing from previous series, and the camera angles are much tighter than in the past, making you feel like you're flying along with the ships. I thought this was great, and so did my girlfriend, incidentally. She thinks Star Trek is for nerds, for the most part. If the "bold new direction" gambit is going to work, the show must attract people like her, too.

* An obvious compact with the fans that "yes, we know certain characters on the show are namby-pamby, and all that's about to change." I like Scott Bakula fine as an actor, but had concerns about him as captain. In the time since TNG, it's become clear to me (and I think several others) that the passive, "let's think our way out of this problem with a psychologist at our side and a kid on ops" style of Captain Picard is far less enjoyable to watch than the "devil may care" emotions of Shatner's original fist-fighting Captain Kirk. I think most viewers want an emotional captain willing to throw a punch and willing to blow his enemies to high heaven. While I have no idea where Archer has been as a character, it seems clear that the deaths of 7 million people are going to push him a tad further into the Kirk region.

* Lots of "fan service" to people like me. THAT's why the klingons were there. Klingons remind the casual viewer that this show has ties to the previous series. Showing the Enterprise shoot photon torpedoes was a great touch. Both my girlfriend and I said "oh, wow! This is where they introduce photon torpedoes! Neat." Not "according to my desk reference of Star Trek technology, photon torpedoes were introduced several years later." 
     The Vulcan high command was another such reference. As were the Starfleet scenes. As was the spacedock allusion to Star Trek I. As was the image of the first warp ship in the opening credits. I know you guys have seen that image lots of times by now, but for people who haven't ever seen the show, it was a welcome nod to the past that suggested the people in charge of the show know what they're doing. 
   Now I don't know if they _do_ know what they're doing, really, but the job of this episode was to make it seem like they were, and for me it worked in spades.

* As Jonathan mentioned, the Xindi attack was an obvious allusion to September 11th, and how a terrible surprise attack on the homeland can change everything. I thought this was too heavy-handed, but it appears to have been missed by a lot of folks, so perhaps they played it off with just the right amount of subtlety. In any event, it helps to make the new series direction "relevant" in the same way many people thought Lord of the Rings, with its tale of good against evil, tapped the post-September 11th zeitgeist.

* Most importantly, I left the episode with the impression that the show will now be about exploration into unknown space (like the original series, and like Voyager attempted and failed to pull off convincingly) with lots of fighting and explosions (like the best movies and episodes of TNG and DS9, notably Wolf 359 and the last season of the Dominion war) and a cool new ship with a captain that's not afraid to use his numerous new armaments. 
     I'm desperately hoping that the show will cast aside the liberal posturing of the 1990s that made Voyager seem so dull and boring and will get back to the spirit of high adventure that made the original series so enjoyable in its time. But this time, it'll hopefully have some of the politics of DS9 and Babylon 5 coupled with the exciting space battles of something like Battlestar Galactica or Star Wars.

Am I a convert to Enterprise? Not really, no, but I definitely will record the first couple episodes of the next season on my TiVo. If they're good, I'll add it to my season pass and will become a happy new viewer. So will my girlfriend, who doesn't generally care for Star Trek, but who really liked that show. 

Chances are most of you die-hards will be watching the show no matter what. You watch it now, when by all accounts it's got some serious flaws--flaws the producers apparently recongnize and are trying to recitify with this new direction. If they were able to pick up two viewers like me with last week's episode, I'm sure they picked up thousands more. Maybe hundreds of thousands more. If those people tune in to the first episode next year, they'll have vastly increased their audience, which seems to be the point of the "bold new direction."

I suggest that, at least as far as my apartment was concerned, "The Expanse" was a staggering and utterly surprising success.

--Erik


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## Mark (May 25, 2003)

Welcome aboard, Ensign Mona.


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## ColonelHardisson (May 26, 2003)

I think Erik's take on the episode was both dead-on accurate, and interesting from the standpoint of someone like me, who has watched the show from the beginning.

I also think that many people who were already Trek fans may have passed Enterprise by simply due to the legacy of Voyager. That's too bad, and I hope more come back into the fold for Enterprise. Personally, I've thought the show had begun to wander into the politically-correct/talking head/technobabble territory Erik decried, and which plagued much of Next Gen and Voyager. I think Archer's destruction of the Klingon ship was as much symbolic to the viewership as it was to the characters on the show - "less talk, more action, and oh, by the way, enough with the namby-pamby attitude you're all used to." 

I thought it was a good, if subdued, episode. There was an air of desperation that lent an immediacy to the show. Some have criticized the allusions to 9/11, but I have to say that a lot of shows do "ripped from the headlines" stories, and I don't think Enterprise has to be different. In some ways it harkened back to more muscular, Kirk-punching-his-way-through-the-galaxy attitude of the original series, but I think Enterprise in general has modelled itself after the old show more than any of the other Trek shows. 

The space battle was cool, true, but I've seen bigger and more spectacular ones (the kind I like) on DS9, and there have been some cool ones on other episodes of Enterprise - I liked the brief skirmish they had with the Tholians, for example.


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## Orius (May 27, 2003)

Richards said:
			
		

> *I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the one obvious analogy to the plot of this episode (well, it was immediately obvious to me, anyway, and also to my oldest son, who watched it from halfway across the country, so I can site two separate sources): September 11th.
> 
> To me, this episode simply screamed 9-11.  Here's the Earth, sitting fat, dumb, and happy, when out of the blue comes a major, devastating attack from an unexpected source.  Extreme damage is incurred.  The reaction is first one of disbelief and shock, followed quickly by anger and a desire for retaliation (especially on the part of Trip, who lost someone close to him in the attack).
> *




Here's a link to an interview with Berman that touches on that point:

http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-main.html?2003-05/20/12.30.tv

Basically, Berman says a 9-11 analogy wasn't intdented from the beginning.  He says they went back and copied elements from Trek films, though he claims they borrowed from IV and VIII.  He does admit that there are parallels to 9-11, though that wasn't the focus they were going for from the start.


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## fba827 (May 27, 2003)

Orius said:
			
		

> *
> <snip>
> Basically, Berman says a 9-11 analogy wasn't intdented from the beginning.  He says they went back and copied elements from Trek films, though he claims they borrowed from IV and VIII.  He does admit that there are parallels to 9-11, though that wasn't the focus they were going for from the start. *




Yeah, I gotta say while there were parrallels, it was not necessarily intentional as suggested earlier.

I mean, I have been using the "attack without warning followed by disbelief, etc. etc." scenario in games long before the 9-11 situation.  It may have had similarities in its basic core but intention was not necessarily present.

And, as Orius has found, it apperently wasn't intentional when developed.


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## Mark (May 27, 2003)

Orius said:
			
		

> *Come to think of it, did Voyager even have a science officer?  Not that I recall. *




I don't remember if their Science Officer died (they lost a few people early on to the Caretaker) or if they just didn't have one since their mission was just to chase down and capture one specific Maquis ship.  In any event, Janeway was a Science Officer before being promoted to Captain so she could function as her own (and did, bouncing ideas off of Torres, mainly, and Seven, later in the show's run.)


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## Orius (May 27, 2003)

Mark said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I don't remember if their Science Officer died (they lost a few people early on to the Caretaker) or if they just didn't have one since their mission was just to chase down and capture one specific Maquis ship.  In any event, Janeway was a Science Officer before being promoted to Captain so she could function as her own (and did, bouncing ideas off of Torres, mainly, and Seven, later in the show's run.) *




Yeah, I know they lost people, the ship's doctor, the first officer, and the con officer.  I know they also didn't include some types of crew members, like a councilor, because it was supposed to be a short mission.  So science officer could fall under either category.

Though I guess we're really talking about a story-external exclusion here, that is there was no science officer because the producers didn't put one in, not because he or she died on the way to the Delta Quadrant.  After all they killed off the officers I mentioned above to make room for the main cast members.


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## Mark (May 27, 2003)

Orius said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Yeah, I know they lost people, the ship's doctor, the first officer, and the con officer.  I know they also didn't include some types of crew members, like a councilor, because it was supposed to be a short mission.  So science officer could fall under either category.
> 
> Though I guess we're really talking about a story-external exclusion here, that is there was no science officer because the producers didn't put one in, not because he or she died on the way to the Delta Quadrant.  After all they killed off the officers I mentioned above to make room for the main cast members. *




Yup.  It seemed to be an effort to get Janeway more involved in that area, much as Picard was "the Diplomat", I suppose.


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## Mistwell (May 27, 2003)

I thought the episode was great.  Then again, in general I really like Enterprise, which puts me alone among my sci-fi loving friends actually.

I'm quite pleased the show was renewed for next season. In my opinion, this show has the best acting, at this stage, of all of the Trek shows.  I felt Next Generation had better acting in the last couple of seasons...but far worse for the second season than Enterprise has had.


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## Blockader7 (May 28, 2003)

T'Pol can NOT become the first Vulcan in Starfleet. That title is SPOCK'S.


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## Mark (May 28, 2003)

Maybe they'll offer he a commission and she'll turn it down on principle.


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## S'mon (Jun 18, 2003)

Mark said:
			
		

> *
> The third problem I have is with "Quantum Dating" and I have no idea why someone else hasn't jumped all over this yet.  If something exists, no matter in what timeline, it must have been around for a period of time and I would think that it's elements would show to have been converted/transformed/mutated/refined or whatever "a certain amount of time ago" no matter at what point they would have been scanned.  To whit, if a device is manufactured 432 years before, but is brought forth in time 400 years, would it not scan as being manufactured 32 years before?  If something is manufactured 432 in the future, sits on a shelf for thirty-two days, is brought back in time 432 years, and sits in a hanger for two months wouldn't it scan as being manufactured three months ago? *




In reality, yes, since as Einstein demonstrated, time is relative, not a Newtonian Universal Constant.  However Trek writers like to use words like 'quantum' without having any idea what they're talking about.  They seemed to assume some absolute frame of temporal reference against which the parts were -403 (etc) years old.


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## S'mon (Jun 18, 2003)

The episode aired in the UK on Monday.  I thought it was functional - setting up a new threat, moving on the timeline - though not particularly well done.  The probe attack seemed poorly handled and made little sense - attacking a populated but not strategically important part of Earth as a 'test fire' - annoying the humans but not impeding their ability to fight back.  In reality attacks are either to 'send a message' or 'damage the enemy', or both - the intent of this seemed neither.  They were just checking if it worked?!

I did like Admiral Forrest's talk with Archer about the Marines and questioning how he'd work with 'the military' - reminding us that Starfleet claims to be 'non-military'(!) even in this early era.  It left me wondering who these military are - a national (US?) military, a United Earth military, or something else?  It should be interesting to see.


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## Jemal (Jun 18, 2003)

S'mon said:
			
		

> *
> 
> In reality, yes, since as Einstein demonstrated, time is relative, not a Newtonian Universal Constant.  However Trek writers like to use words like 'quantum' without having any idea what they're talking about.  They seemed to assume some absolute frame of temporal reference against which the parts were -403 (etc) years old. *




Or you could look at it this way.
Accepted Scientific Fact#1: The universe is expanding all the time.
Accepted Scientific Fact#2: Matter cannot be created or destroyed, only rearanged.

Therefore, the density of the universe becomes less as the Universe expands, meaning the farther back in time, the more densely packed the matter in the universe, and the farther forward, the LESS densely packed.

Possible Trek Science conclusion: The density of the universe when something is created affects its molecular structure, and this 'device' reads the molecular structure to find out the density of the universe, then extrapolates the 'temporal date' of the object it reads and displays it in relation to the current temporal date.
The only thing I haven't figured out is wouldn't that mean that everythings molecular structure is undergoign 'constant' change?
So there's still a few bugs, but if you ignore the little inconsistencies (Which is what you're supposed to do in a science FICTION show) it works.

And you know the weird part?  According to advanced Quantum Theory, that's possible... Not with our current technology, but it IS theoretically possible.

Which could explain why they call it 'Quantum' Dating.


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## S'mon (Jun 18, 2003)

The density of the entire universe is decreasing as an average, but of course the density of the Galaxy, Solar System, or my PC are not decreasing.  You could theorise some kind of Absolute Cosmic Clock for the Trekverse, held within atomic structure presumably, giving a measure for Absolute Time (implying Einstein was wrong, time is not just another dimension, etc) but I'm not sure why the universe's average density would affect this, since within an atom gravity isn't an important force - especially the gravity of faraway galaxies!


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## Orius (Jun 21, 2003)

S'mon said:
			
		

> *The episode aired in the UK on Monday.  I thought it was functional - setting up a new threat, moving on the timeline - though not particularly well done.  The probe attack seemed poorly handled and made little sense - attacking a populated but not strategically important part of Earth as a 'test fire' - annoying the humans but not impeding their ability to fight back.  In reality attacks are either to 'send a message' or 'damage the enemy', or both - the intent of this seemed neither.  They were just checking if it worked?!
> *




Actually IIRC, the probe malfuntioned and exploded before it was finished with the attack.  That's probably why it seems kind of pointless.  Also I think the Xindi didn't really know anything about humans, so maybe they just picked any old spot to start blasting away.


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## Griswold (Jun 22, 2003)

Enterprise season ender was pretty good, really looking forward to next season!

alittle OT, but am I the only person that liked Voyager?  Now I will admit that the first season was beyond bad and the second season wasn't much better, but I thought the show really improved once DS9 writers started to drift over.

-G.


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## S'mon (Jun 22, 2003)

Orius said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Actually IIRC, the probe malfuntioned and exploded before it was finished with the attack.  That's probably why it seems kind of pointless.  Also I think the Xindi didn't really know anything about humans, so maybe they just picked any old spot to start blasting away. *




Malfunction - I don't remember that in the episode, Future Guy said it was a weapons test AIR.  

Not knowing about humans - surely it wouldn't take very complex programming to detect major population centres?  Unless Florida is a major population centre (fully urbanised) in 22nd century - but then, the straight line across land-sea-land-sea-land is never going to maximise damage, surely.  Of course maybe the Xindi just aren't very smart and don't have much experience attacking planets.


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## S'mon (Jun 22, 2003)

Griswold said:
			
		

> *Enterprise season ender was pretty good, really looking forward to next season!
> 
> alittle OT, but am I the only person that liked Voyager?  Now I will admit that the first season was beyond bad and the second season wasn't much better, but I thought the show really improved once DS9 writers started to drift over.
> 
> -G. *




I thought the later Voyager seasons were ok, I watched it much more than DS9.  Basically I quite liked it.


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## Mark (Sep 4, 2003)

And they'll be using last season's finale, of course, to end the summer reruns...


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## Kesh (Sep 4, 2003)

Naturally! So, now we're all caught up on the suckage. 

I'm semi-anticipating the new season. The few clips they showed after the episode ended... were not encouraging.


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## Mark (Sep 4, 2003)

Kesh said:
			
		

> The few clips they showed after the episode ended... were not encouraging.




Are you talking about the rapid-fire shots/montage from last season, or were there actually a group of clips from the new season?


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## Kesh (Sep 4, 2003)

The montage. A few scenes in there caught my eye, and I wasn't too happy. One appears to be, "Archer and T'Pol on an alien planet, where Archer 'de-evolves' and forgets his ship."


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