# Gaming W/Jemal - Epic Mortal Kombat (Character creation.)



## Jemal (Mar 5, 2007)

K, guys, I've noticed a fair amount of interest in Epic Gaming from my "Epic Problem" Thread, and SO I'm here asking... Is there anyone else who'ld like to DM/Play Epic PBP, and if so, what kind of games/Characters would interest People?  

Lets start talking and hopefully somebody will do something about it, eh?

*EDIT : Hmm, OK, Guess that someone was me.


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## Insight (Mar 5, 2007)

I'd be interested in playing in an epic game, depending on the setting and circumstances.  Someone would have to bowl me over with a cool concept at this point for me to commit to the time and effort required in creating an epic character.


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## Ivellious (Mar 5, 2007)

I'm interested (Of course I am, I'm in your game Jemal lol), but one it takes too much too make a character, and two......I wouldn't have the first clue of what to dm for epic.


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## Pyrex (Mar 5, 2007)

I'd love to play in an(other) Epic game (that lasted beyond the first combat).


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## kinem (Mar 5, 2007)

I might be interested just to try it out, but I am against the Epic rules and when I DM I don't use them.  There are too many stupidities within them like epic social skills and infinite arrow shots, not to mention the fact that it makes no sense that people could continue to improve exponentially without limit, and it makes world building too hard if there is no upper power level and there are long lived races.  Besides all that, I have never seen an Epic game last very long - it's clunky and low level challenges seem easier to get immersed in the roleplaying of.

That said, I may soon start a 20th level PBP here as I am interested in trying DMing at that level.


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## Salthorae (Mar 5, 2007)

Personally I love making Epic level characters and would love to play in an Epic game. I've never before in my DM'd though so i don't think it woudl be such a good idea to start out with Epic games....

As far as charcater concepts go though it would really depend on the world/game proposal as to what i would want to make. 

PS - I was too slow on seeing your post for the "Epic Problem" game Jemal, but PM me if a slot opens up eh?


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## pallandrome (Mar 6, 2007)

kinem said:
			
		

> I might be interested just to try it out, but I am against the Epic rules and when I DM I don't use them.  There are too many stupidities within them like epic social skills and infinite arrow shots, not to mention the fact that it makes no sense that people could continue to improve exponentially without limit, and it makes world building too hard if there is no upper power level and there are long lived races.  Besides all that, I have never seen an Epic game last very long - it's clunky and low level challenges seem easier to get immersed in the roleplaying of.




Sorry, but I just had to bring this up. While I'll agree that the epic stuff is often silly powerful, that is sorta the point of epic isn't it? I mean, if you are looking for reasonable "what real people can do" sorta stuff, then anything over level 5 or 10 is pretty much out of the question. Hell, fighters arn't supposed to be supernatural at ALL, but they can just off cliffs with nary a care at high levels.


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## kinem (Mar 6, 2007)

The high level stuff is often not realistic, but it's not completely crazy, either.  Real people have survived long falls.  And that fighter still has a 5% chance of dying from massive damage.  It's not realistic but it's like what we see in movies and TV shows, and it's still possible to play along with it and pretend it's OK.  But with much of the Epic stuff, it's just stupid.  It leaves the realm of pulp fiction and goes all the way into that of bad cartoons.


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## Shanderson (Mar 6, 2007)

Epic is a little bit wacky, but hey, it's D&D, it's all in good fun. So yeah, I'm interested in playin'.


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## Jemal (Mar 6, 2007)

kinem said:
			
		

> I might be interested just to try it out, but I am against the Epic rules and when I DM I don't use them.  There are too many stupidities within them like epic social skills and infinite arrow shots, not to mention the fact that it makes no sense that people could continue to improve exponentially without limit, and it makes world building too hard if there is no upper power level and there are long lived races.  Besides all that, I have never seen an Epic game last very long - it's clunky and low level challenges seem easier to get immersed in the roleplaying of.
> 
> That said, I may soon start a 20th level PBP here as I am interested in trying DMing at that level.




I've both played and DM'd in multiple Epic Campaigns that have lasted anywhere from a few months playing casually to almost a year playing about 12-20 hours a week.
I've played characters from lvl 16 that got up to lvl 30+, started at Epic and gone up, and DM'd a campaign where the  PC's ended up level 68 before we finally stopped.  You just need to understand the rules, and your players, and how to bend/fix the rules when they need to be 'taken care of' (Without letting your players know, of course)

Nothing's broken unless you let it be.  Besides, EPIC to me (And my friends) Has always been the Midievel equivalent of SuperHeroes or Anime-style UBER-WARRIORS.
EXAMPLE:Quickened Teleport + Multispell + Sun School + Knockback = DBZ Combat Teleport, hit opponent, send opponent flying, teleport behind opponent, repeat.
OR Nightcrawler from the X-men.

Hell, I've seen SpiderMan and Wolverine duke it out at lvl 40 D&D.. that was interesting.. Of course, even at Epic you can't do Wolverine justice, but it was worth a shot.

PLUS I usually see a LOT more roleplaying at Epic simply because so much more thought has gone into the character, and usually when somebody's playing a character at EPIC, it's because that character MEANS something to them... I don't just randomly design personality-deprived killing machines (Well, unless I'm DMing...).  I take character concepts that I've played at Various levels.. or never played at all, b/c I saw the character as being too powerful to be cowed by mere Red dragons or solars or Lichs.. And then came.. EPIC.

And just for the record, how does it make sense that people can harness giant balls of fire with a few words and a wave of the hand?  Any sane person know's that's impossible.


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## Lord_Raven88 (Mar 6, 2007)

I'd love to play in an Epic game, but it certaintly takes a lot of work to create a fully fleshed out character. Infact the hardest part is coming up with a decent enough background to explain what the character has been up to for the past 20+ levels.

The main concept I want to try out is an epic Master of the Unseen Hand.

Regarding DMing an Epic game I've been seriously considering it, but I'm waiting for Upper Crust to finish the Immortals Handbook.  As I'd rather use that than the current rules.


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## Insight (Mar 6, 2007)

In terms of concepts, wow, there are so many things you can do with 20+ levels of character building.

If someone is actually offering to DM, I'll throw out six concepts or so and see what meshes with what everyone else has.


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## Arknath (Mar 6, 2007)

Definitely interested in an epic campaign specifically for the reason Jemal mentioned earlier.  Story and character development are paramount because more thought goes into the character.  I have a few concepts and I don't think the epic rules are "stupid" or "silly" as some others tend to, but they are more dramatic and cinematic than the normal rules.  After all, anyone who wants realism in their D&D shouldn't be playing fantasy RPGs.   Just MHO.

Count me in!!


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## Salthorae (Mar 6, 2007)

Arknath said:
			
		

> Count me in!!




So I noticed in your .sig that you DM'd an Epic campaign. Does that "Count me in" above mean you'd want to play or run?


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## Arknath (Mar 6, 2007)

Heh...i hadn't posted in a while and i was looking at my sig and the old games i was in/DM'd.  I still would like to do that one (because the world has come back to me and is better than ever) but I'm not sure if I'm ready to take on that sort of campaign yet.  Maybe in the future but I'd need time to get things together first.  

So a succinct answer to your question is that i"m interested in playing for now.  

As a side note, the game would be in my home brew world.  I'm quite surprised that the boards kept my old threads.


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## Jemal (Mar 7, 2007)

Far As I can tell, the boards keep all old threads... THere hasn't been a wipe that I'm aware of since I signed up.  I've still got some old bookmarked game threads that are 3-4 years old.

And btw, Salthorae... Nice try, too bad Ark didn't go for it. 


One more thing - Why do so many people see Character Creation as 'work'?  I personally find it one of the best parts of the game!  You've got a blank slate, a person who could do (Or may have done in the past) ANYTHING!!

Sure some people don't like the number adding, poring over books, sweeping through feats and Prestige classes... but to me it's like Pizza and Pepsi with the "Epic" part being the Chocolate on the side. 

Heck, the main reason I DM Epic for my RL Group is so I have somewhere to test out all those Epic Character Ideas I have for Villainous types.


SO.. no takers on DMing yet, eh?


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## Arknath (Mar 7, 2007)

Jemal,

Actually, I think you were in a first level game of mine back around the same time as well.  Still ended it because I thought the world was going belly up (IRL).   Probably don't remember me though.

Man...I'd love to DM an epic game. But right now I'm devoting too much time to my TT game and other endeavors (I've seem to have found a      who likes being around me...still can't figure out why!  ), but that game (that I was running - Forgiveness is Divine) would be fun for sure.  My only problem is I don't think I could give it the attention and tender-loving care that I like to give my games...I'll keep you guys posted if I get bored and run out of things to do. 

Anyway, thanks for the vote...


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## Jemal (Mar 7, 2007)

Actually I do remember Gaming with you, just can't really remember details.. 

It's mostly names I remember from my ENWorld games a few years later.. the people I thought were good roleplayers/DM's and fun to game with.


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## Arknath (Mar 7, 2007)

Awesome...well, maybe we can actually get this one going this time.


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## Pyrex (Mar 7, 2007)

Arknath said:
			
		

> ...but that game (that I was running - Forgiveness is Divine) would be fun for sure.  My only problem is I don't think I could give it the attention and tender-loving care that I like to give my games...I'll keep you guys posted if I get bored and run out of things to do. ...




You ever do restart it I want back in on it.  It was just getting interesting...


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## Arknath (Mar 7, 2007)

I saw your name on this post too Pyrex...and you'll definitely be in on it.

Wow...old memories...*sigh* Wish there were 48 hours in a day...


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## Salthorae (Mar 7, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> And btw, Salthorae... Nice try, too bad Ark didn't go for it.




Sorry I tried! 

Personally I love making Epic characters, I do it for fun (usually just in my head) a lot actually. SO much so that I can pretty much now pound out a 1st level character in about 5-10 minutes. 

I should probably START DM'ing at some point just so I can put all my epic character ideas to use like you're doing Jemal


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## Jemal (Mar 7, 2007)

Hey Pyrex! Good t' see you again.



			
				Salthorae said:
			
		

> I should probably START DM'ing at some point just so I can put all my epic character ideas to use like you're doing Jemal




Hmmm...


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## Brother Allard (Mar 7, 2007)

I'd also be interested in a epic level game.  Unfortunately, when Jemal's game opened, I had a hard deadline approaching at work and couldn't devote the time I needed to create an epic character.  Of course, since recruitment closed, my mind's been obsessively tweaking the concept I had, reselecting classes, spells, feats, items.  Shuffling, shuffling, shuffling.

Funny how that works.


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## Salthorae (Mar 7, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> Hmmm...




Hehe, don't "Hmm" me! There is no way I'd start DM'ing at Epic...it's one of those things you have to work and build up to, you know like getting engaged.


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## Pyrex (Mar 7, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> Hey Pyrex! Good t' see you again.




You too.  

If you hadn't already had 8 or 9 partial PC's posted by the time I saw the thread I'd've signed up for the one you're running now.


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## Arknath (Mar 8, 2007)

I guess epic level dms are hard to find as epic level characters in-game, eh?


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## Insight (Mar 8, 2007)

Arknath said:
			
		

> I guess epic level dms are hard to find as epic level characters in-game, eh?




I can't begin to imagine how much time it takes to prep for an epic game.  Even going thru characters for errors (and other things) in a format like this would take some time.  It's quite a committment.

PBP games so hit and miss as it is, and when you give the DM an even _greater_ challenge, I think you run a good chance of the game never getting off the ground.

That said, I'd like to try it out, create a character, and see where it goes from there.  I have neither the time nor the patience to run such a game, however.  That task will have to fall upon someone else's shoulders.


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## Vertexx69 (Mar 9, 2007)

I love making epic toons as well, but then I like the stat crunch, even with my limited resources. Its just even better when you actually get to play them a little bit.


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## Arknath (Mar 12, 2007)

Hey Jemal, How about changing the thread title to "Epic players looking for DM"? Might be a bit more descriptive now that we have a set of players.

Any house rules you guys have found particularly useful for Epic play? (since we're all epic fans here)


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## Pyrex (Mar 12, 2007)

Well, 'SRD Only' makes it a lot less painful for DM's; as does 'No Custom Items'.


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## Jemal (Mar 12, 2007)

except that those of us who've played everything in the core books that we have ever wanted to play need a bit more... I bought all the complete's b/c to me, D&D is about options, and the higher level you are, the more options you should have.  I agree with the no custom items thing (unless your character designs and crafts it themselves), but SRD only kinda sucks for guys like me, who can't make most of the character's we'ld want to play at Epic without at least a few splat books.

if it were SRD only, the only character I'd want to play would be a sorc/archmage.

Hmmm...maybe a straight fighter just so I could pick a single epic feat (DR or Fast heal or Epic Speed) and take it 10-20 times.   Go super-speed!


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## Salthorae (Mar 12, 2007)

I think I could still have fun SRD only, just not as much. I too thrive on options for my character builds, though I've begun to be less than enthusiastic about buying new books. I may actually be getting to the point were I think there are now TOO many option/splat books out there...sigh 

I agree with Jemal as far as custom items goes, though even then I think they should be limited to 1 or 2 at most, still per DM approval.


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## Insight (Mar 13, 2007)

It's up to the DM obviously, but I'd start with the list of outside books the DM personally owns / has regular access to, and go from there.  If all he has is the Core Rules (unlikely), so be it.  Most DMs interested in running an epic game would almost certainly have access to non-Core books.  Whether they want those options available in play is another matter entirely.


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## Amazing Triangle (Mar 14, 2007)

I would love to play a 30th level game.  I would love to play something that has very few prestige classes, if only one....maybe that epic monk/sorcerer/enlightened fist.  I think the part about epic characters should be more about the character than the build.  So is there a DM here or are we all just hoping for an epic game.  I would love to play one but have no experience DMing one as of yet.  Have lots of experience playing in epic games.


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## Arknath (Mar 14, 2007)

so far we're waiting for someone who 1) has the time (not I  ) and 2) doesn't already have an epic game on these boards (Jemal). Sooo..if you know anyone..


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## Jemal (Apr 9, 2007)

Going Twice....


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## Brother Allard (Apr 10, 2007)

That's the spirit.  If we bump it once a month, someone is bound to cave to the mounting pressure.

Right?


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## Arknath (Apr 10, 2007)

I hope so!!!


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## James Heard (Apr 10, 2007)

I agree.


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## Brother Allard (May 10, 2007)

Seriously.  How much longer do you think you can resist?

That's right.  I'm talking to YOU!

The pressure is mounting.


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## Jemal (May 10, 2007)

Nuh-uh... 
Not doin it.... 
Don't you dare try to make me....
I'm saying no...
Though I may change my mind by the 22nd/23rd...
IF I have a good reason...


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## crazy_monkey1956 (May 10, 2007)

Just chiming in with...

I've DMed epic before but a)it has been in face-to-face groups, b)I'm of the opinion that playing a character to epic level is much more satisfying than creating them at epic levels, and c)I've never run a PBP, though I did run several successful PBeMs back in the mid-90s.

So, with that in mind...

Am I volunteering?  I could be persuaded, but I'd need some help getting used to the PBP format.  I would have to rain on the parade a little, however, and limit character options to Core, Psionics SRD, Epic SRD, Divine SRD, Savage Species, Unearthed Arcana (on a case by case basis), Monster Manual II (referencing the Wizards 3.5 update file as appropriate), and Libris Mortis.  What follows below are some campaign ideas.

The Elder Dragons

At the dawn of creation, ten elder dragons were created from the nothingness.  These beings held the keys to the divine spark and were appointed as guardians and watchers of the mortal races, waiting for the time when the best would step forward and claim the mantle of deity.  That time has finally come, but as the centuries passed, several of the elder dragons became greedy, seeking to covet the deific power for themselves.  Now, what was to be freely given must be taken.  

The main theme of Elder Dragons is becoming a god, by petitioning the Elder Dragons.  The Elder Dragons themselves are Divine Rank 0 Great Wyrms of each of the Chromatic and Metallic colors.  Some of the chromatics no longer want to play and must be taken down.  The campaign world is a homebrew with no deities, though there are clerics of philosophical concepts.  Starting level would be 21 with an eye toward ending at about 30.

The Corruption 

In the final epic battle against a demon lord, the heroes and their foe rained such magic upon the land that, although victorious, the heroes, in their final, valiant attack, accidentally created a temporal rift which they fell through.  After mere moments, the heroes return, only to find that centuries have passed.  The demon lord's cunning lieutenant, now an arch-lich, has defiled the land, creating a realm of death and undead.  The heroes now must face an entire world of the damned and seek out the Arch-Lich.

The main theme of The Corruption is two-fold.  Heroes of old returning for another epic battle, but with an emphasis on "stranger-in-a-strange-land" feel, as they are the only living beings left in the world.  Secondly, the dilemma faced by the heroes is whether they should seek out and destroy the Arch-Lich, or instead find some way to go back and prevent his rise to power to begin with.  Enemies, themes, and campaign elements will be drawn extensively from Libris Mortis.  Starting level would be approximately 25 (enough to have defeated a minor demon lord at full power) with an eye toward ending in the mid-30s.

Hero Worship

Action!  Adventure!  Damsels in Distress!  A group of heroes is needed in this time of crisis to step forward and form an unprecedented team to combat the most implacable of foes.

Epic...with a twist.  The idea here is taking an epic scale D&D character, created with D&D rules, and plopping them down into a modern setting that otherwise is bereft of magic...except of course for the villains.  Starting level 21, and the sky is the limit after that.

I must conclude by saying that I'm still very iffy about the whole PBP thing, so, while I'm open to making the attempt, I can't guarantee that this will last beyond the initial discussion phase.


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## Insight (May 10, 2007)

crazypixie said:
			
		

> The Corruption
> 
> In the final epic battle against a demon lord, the heroes and their foe rained such magic upon the land that, although victorious, the heroes, in their final, valiant attack, accidentally created a temporal rift which they fell through.  After mere moments, the heroes return, only to find that centuries have passed.  The demon lord's cunning lieutenant, now an arch-lich, has defiled the land, creating a realm of death and undead.  The heroes now must face an entire world of the damned and seek out the Arch-Lich.
> 
> The main theme of The Corruption is two-fold.  Heroes of old returning for another epic battle, but with an emphasis on "stranger-in-a-strange-land" feel, as they are the only living beings left in the world.  Secondly, the dilemma faced by the heroes is whether they should seek out and destroy the Arch-Lich, or instead find some way to go back and prevent his rise to power to begin with.  Enemies, themes, and campaign elements will be drawn extensively from Libris Mortis.  Starting level would be approximately 25 (enough to have defeated a minor demon lord at full power) with an eye toward ending in the mid-30s.




Me likee!

I find this to be the best of your propositions, thematically.  I like the fact that the heroes are intrinsically involved in the BBEG's rise to power and should feel responsible for it, and have the power to do something about it.  Plus, I like Undead.  Would you allow Undead PCs (perhaps those transformed during the final battle pre-temporal rift)?  Just a thought.


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## crazy_monkey1956 (May 10, 2007)

Absolutely, although I would prefer an undead with an established level adjustment, one of the ones presented in Libris Mortis as a monster class, or something relatively easy to adapt.

As an aside, I have a few minor tweaks and house rules that I use.  For those who are interested, how "by-the-book" do you prefer your games?


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## Jemal (May 10, 2007)

Hmmm.. Personally, I would NOT suggest starting your first PBP as an EPIC DM. 
Trust me, PBP can be very fun, but it IS different from Pen&Paper/Face2Face.  I find that because it's a written format, there's a lot more description and thought (On both the DM and Player's parts).  It also takes a lot of getting used to, and you don't know the people you're playing with as well as you'd like.

That being said, I'd suggest you play a couple before you try your hand at DMing.

(I can't believe I just tried to Persuade someone AWAY from DMing Epic... damnit, now I HAVE to or the others'll kill me.)

OK, Guys & Gals, gimme a couple weeks (I'm heading home soon for my week off, and will be rather busy to start a new game) and I'll come up with something.

crazypixie, I'd like you to try your hand at Playing in one of my Epic Games to see how PBP's tend to go, and then maybe you can return the favour and run a game that I can get into, eh?


*EXTRA: I'm open to suggestions, but I think I have an idea for an Epic Campaign.. I originally ran it for my friends IRL and they've been ravign at me to do it again.

  It's a 'mortal kombat' style tournament, full of Fighter Types (Nobody with major spellcasting), but don't worry, it's not set up like all those other tournaments.  A group of Epic fighters (I'm thinking somewhere from LVL 25 - 40) gets brought to this Demi-plane Island and dropped off.  In the center of the island is a Castle.  nobody can enter the castle and it's guarded by Demi-Gods.  Some of the participants are here of their own will, others are not.  Nobody can leave the plane, and at the begining a guy would inform you that within the clearing around the castle, you cannot affect each other in any way.  The object is simple... 8 of you get to go Inside...   
You get 1 point for bringing back a dead body (Or majority thereof). 2 points for bringing them back unconscious, 3 points if you can get them to surrender.
When there are only 16 left, there is a 24 hour period in which the 'safe zone' around the castle is gone, except a 20' square in front of the gates.  After that 24 hours, the 8 with the highest scores are allowed in.  Any others, well....


It will NOT be just fighting, there's a LOT of roleplaying involved, there's various things on the island, places to explore & hide, non-participants that still need to be 'handled', and then there's finding out what's going on INSIDE the castle.
Many of the participants form groups, and split the points amongst themselves.  For simplicity's sake, it would probably be best if the PC's were of groups that could easily work together.  
I'm not saying it's required, though.
As for # of PC's, b/c this is a Non-spellcaster campaign, and of how it's set up, I could handle quite a few.


As I stated, I won't be starting for a while, but I'm willing to Discuss for the next couple weeks.


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## crazy_monkey1956 (May 10, 2007)

You're probably right about my playing in a PBP first, to get my feet wet.

I'm not sure I quite understand the set-up you have going here.  It appears to be a competition, but I'm not clear on the whys and wherefores.  A little clarification, perhaps?


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## Jemal (May 10, 2007)

that's actually part of the Campaign is the "why".  As stated, some are here by choice (They were approached and/or heard of a "tournament" of all the most powerful fighters, and decided they could win.  Others were 'plucked' there by an unknown being, and forced to compete.

One of the primary goals would be finding out WHY this tournament is taking place.  There are rumours (Anybody with good know:history would know this as true) that this 'tournament' is held every century, but most of the participants are never heard from again.

Some believe the winners transcend to god-hood, others believe they go to another plane where their power is challenged and grows even more.  Still more believe whoever's running the Tourney is doing something untoward, maybe killing or enslaving the winners...
A fourth line of thought is that the Tournament is run to maintain balance, removing the most powerful creatures from the Universe every hundred years, so that they don't upset the balance, or perhaps try to challenge the God's themselves.


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## crazy_monkey1956 (May 10, 2007)

Another question then: the books I mentioned in my above post are the only ones I have access to.  In your opinion, would a character from those sources be able to compete, in terms of game mechanics, with and against characters created from a more robust helping of supplements?


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## Jemal (May 10, 2007)

Well, in the original I ran, the most powerful character was a straight human fighter with nothing but Core+Epic, so I'd have to say yes.
*Also, I hope/expect that there will be some "Grouping" amonsgt the PC's, so it won't be neccesarily PC vs PC.

I'd allow any book so long as the specifics are passed by me.
I would NOT be allowing any of the following: 
Spells beyond 4th level.
Divine Metamagic
Incarnum
Book of 9swords
Psionics
Any of the "power builds" from the Wizco Optimization Boards (If you don't know what these are, GOOD.  if you do, Don't try them.)

One thing I DO enjoy a lot when DMing is giving each player something Unique, that isn't available to the other PC's.   For this campaign, I'd be allowing each of you something fairly powerful...
Such could be a customized Prestige class, a special race, an ability that's not normally allowed, access to a NON-Wizards book (Mongoose, etc), or even an Artifact.

As an example, in my original one, one of the PC's created his own 10-lvl Prestige class (And it's epic part), another gained several abilities that made him essentially a construct, and had dual-personalities (both with different levels), A third was his own designed race and had a pair of special weapons that could Alter it's enhancement (Goign from a +10 to a +9 Keen, or a +8 Flaming Burst, etc) and another.. well, he's our resident "uber-twinker", so his 'special power' was that I didn't say NO to his character.   He was a bit miffed, but didn't lag far behind the others, and enjoyed the campaign, so we counted it a sucess.


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## crazy_monkey1956 (May 10, 2007)

What about races, specifically races with Spell-Like Abilities above 4th level?

Any restrictions in terms of Level Adjustment or racial HD?

I tend much more toward story-effectiveness than combat-effectiveness.  Is my Prince from a lost kingdom level 20-something Aristocrat going to get slaughtered?  Wouldn't actually play an aristocrat, but my point is, is that I don't create combat heavy characters often enough to make them effective in a combat heavy game.


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## Jemal (May 10, 2007)

My games are no more combat heavy than any 'normal' D&D game.. About 50/50.  I personally believe that a character should be able to handle itself in both Roleplaying AND combat.  Otherwise he/she is going to find theirself standing back watching half the game.


if you want an example of how I tend to run games (Specifically Epic ones), I've got two Epic Games running on the boards right now.. One's evil, one's good: 
Prevention
Return to Power


They're both about 200 posts long, but if you can wade from beginning to end, I think you'll like it.

And just a side note... the last tournaments winner was a Prince.  Allarion Sarutobi of Lyrevan, and he's one of the best roleplayed characters I've ever seen, which is half of why he won (He managed to talk a few people into surrendering to him, which is worth 3 kills a piece.. And I don't mean through Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate, but rather through excellent roleplaying.  He WAS a very god fighter, though, on top of that.
(Though I'm not telling anyone what happened in the castle or afterwards. 

One thing to keep in mind though... if your character isn't a powerful fighter, then why & How did he get invited/brought/accepted into the Tournament?
Also, is the concept specifically SUPPOSED to be non-combatant, or is that a side effect of you not usually making powerful/Epic characters?  If it is the latter, there are many here who would be happy to help you with a few tips/pointers.


to your Other questions: No spell like abilities over 4th level either.
As for LA/HD, it depends on what you want.  Just ask.  I'd prefer no Liches, or anything else that's inherently 'unkillable' except by very specific means.  
Vampires, however, are perfectly acceptable.  I can tell you right now that there's going to be about a half dozen of them in the tourney.


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## Brother Allard (May 10, 2007)

You know, I woke up this morning and I said to myself: "self, you need to go find and resurrect that thread, because you never know.  Something good might happen."

This just goes to show that I should always listen to myself.

So... Feral Half-orc (?) Bear Warrior / Frenzied Berzerker.   I've been looking for an opportunity to pull him out of the folder.  This looks like it will do nicely.

Actually, if you're handing out boons: being able to apply the feral template to a giant might not be quite strong enough, but the idea of a feral half-ogre bear warrior / frenzied berserker makes me a little weak in the knees.


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## Brother Allard (May 10, 2007)

And, incidentally, should you ever have openings in either of your other epic games (as if), I've got some good ideas for those too...


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## crazy_monkey1956 (May 10, 2007)

Just an idea to throw out, not finalized...

Enialis Nailo

Half-Elf Wizard 4/Half-Elf Paragon 3/Elf Paragon 3 (Total Wizard caster level 7) Arcane Archer (level TBD by campaign starting level).  

Raised by elven nobility, Enialis would be a prince if not for his human blood, the result of a tryst between his elven mother, a princess at the time, and a human adventurer.  He has struggled his entire life to prove himself just as "elven" as those of purer blood, going so far as to become an arcane archer and rise to the most elite ranks in that endeavor.  Still it is not enough.  His elven family still consider him a child because he is not even a hundred years old yet.  Hearing of a strange competition elsewhere in the world, he has set a new goal to prove his worth to his elven family.

Focus of the character is obviously archery, augmented by spellcasting, though he has some capacity in diplomatic skills and stealth as well.  His goal in the competition would be to avoid melee and defeat his opponenents before they can land a blow, and use diplomacy on the reasonable ones.  I may throw in a few fighter levels to augment his feat selection.


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## moritheil (May 10, 2007)

This seems like a convenient place to pose a question: has anyone had much experience in epic with high-LA races (angels, archons, demons, devils, dragons, etc. ?)  It seems to me that the overall dominance of high-level casters only increases in epic, making high LA a risky proposition, but I'd love to hear from someone whose experience says otherwise.


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## crazy_monkey1956 (May 10, 2007)

I have a house rule in my Face-to-Face games where LA doesn't count toward entry into epic status.  Thus, a character with a LA has to reach 21 HD or class levels before being considered epic.  It works mostly toward the character's advantage because it allows their BAB and Base Saves to progress normally, among other things.

As an example, a 21st level human fighter is going to have 4 attacks per round.  A human-vampire fighter would hit a ceiling of 3 attacks per round according to the normal rules (referencing the 3.5 DMG here, not the Epic Level Handbook).  Sucks (pun intended) for Mr. Vampire.


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## moritheil (May 10, 2007)

crazypixie said:
			
		

> I have a house rule in my Face-to-Face games where LA doesn't count toward entry into epic status.  Thus, a character with a LA has to reach 21 HD or class levels before being considered epic.  It works mostly toward the character's advantage because it allows their BAB and Base Saves to progress normally, among other things.




That's how I've always played it - one cannot take epic feats until reaching 21+ HD.  I don't think that's a houserule.

While this way of ruling things helps BAB, one must also account for the fact that epic feats are much more powerful than regular feats, and if creatures were counted as epic by ECL, those feats would be available sooner.


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## Shayuri (May 10, 2007)

I'm playing a Mature Adult silver dragon in Prevention. It's a lot of fun too. The trick with dragons is to play to their strengths. No dragon is really a main spellcaster. Their magic is best chosen to supplement their natural badassness. Boost your strength and Con through the roof, get Multiattack and something like Dire Charge or an item that gives you pounce. A full attack from a dragon is a terrifying thing when properly buffed.

Problems you'll have include DR...it's hard to make natural weapons pierce epic DR, or any kind of special material DR. To say nothing of alignment DR. On the other hand, if you focus on dragon hit dice instead of class levels, you get monster BAB (which is 1 to 1 even in epic levels) which lets you power attack with a tailslap for so much damage that DR is rarely much of an issue. 

Your magic should be personal buffs, energy resistance (especially if you're vulnerable to something), and check out Draconomicon for "breath weapon magic." Good stuff in there.

----

Hey, you say no spellcasters allowed...but do Warlocks count as spellcasters? Rhodia makes me want to try my hand at an epic warlock.


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## moritheil (May 10, 2007)

Ah, metabreath . . . bane of players worldwide!    

Thanks for the perspective!


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## Lord_Raven88 (May 10, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> Hmmm.. Personally, I would NOT suggest starting your first PBP as an EPIC DM.
> Trust me, PBP can be very fun, but it IS different from Pen&Paper/Face2Face.  I find that because it's a written format, there's a lot more description and thought (On both the DM and Player's parts).  It also takes a lot of getting used to, and you don't know the people you're playing with as well as you'd like.
> 
> That being said, I'd suggest you play a couple before you try your hand at DMing.
> ...



Well I'm keen, once you've sorted out the exact character creation guidelines I'll happily submit something


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## Solarious (May 10, 2007)

Mmmnnn. Sounds of an Epic game. I missed my chance at the other one (two?), but I'm more than interested in splashing into this one. I wonder what kind of damage a Rouge/Swashbuckler/X (with Complete Scoundrel) can do in Epic. It would be amusing, at the very least. Sneak attack die up to the stratosphere, and over half the competition are immune.


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## Autumn (May 10, 2007)

Sounds like a nice idea. I don't have personal experience with the Epic rules, but I've always been pretty interested to try them out. This seems like a great opportunity to do just that. 

  I'll give it some thought... definitely interested.


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## Tric (May 10, 2007)

I'm also interested. I'll post my concept in a little bit.

Here's what I'm thinking:

*Class* Druid/Master of Many Forms/Nature's Warrior/Some fighter or barb levels
*Alignment* Neutral Good
*Concept* The character is simple at heart, he (or she) is in tune with nature and rather carefree. He has lived for a long time, and he's ageless just like nature itself. He's had many experiences in his lifetime and has fought many battles. And yet, he could never truly become determined in the face of evil. It was more of a way for him to unleash his passions, to hone himself and to travel to new places. And yet he has a good soul deep down which guides him.


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## Jemal (May 11, 2007)

Comments: 

First, I strongly advise any who want to game with me to check out one of my other Epic games to get an idea of how I run stuff.

Secondly, As stated before, I won't be starting this for about 2 weeks, though I may post char. creation guidelines before then.

Now onto individuals:

Brother A - I've always wanted to play a Feral Half-Ogre Fighter/Barbarian/Bear-Warrior/Frenzied Berserker/Warshaper.  
As such, I'd be inclined to allow a Feral Half-ogre, and as an added bonus (I like added bonuses) it's NO LA!!!
One thing to watch out for, though... Bear Warrior's loose all their equipment when shapeshifted, as per polymorph.  You may want to take that into consideration.

Craypixie - The Archer sounds fun, but do be warned, EVERYTHING has a weakness.  Yours would be obvious - Fast melee characters, Grapplers, and the worst yet.... Infinite Deflection.  Enialis definitely needs to be a team player.

As for the Epic ruling, I usually count LA last, after all the HD are factored in.

Moritheil - Solars, Balors, and Dragons, when played correctly, KICK ASS.
(Plus, how freaking cool are they?)
OH, and the BEST high LA template to add to pretty much anything... PARAGON.

Shayuri - Hmm, as much as I like Warlocks, i DID say no Spells/psionics/Spell-like abilities beyond 4th level, and Invocations ARE spell-like abilities..
If you wanted to just focus on the weaker invocations (Or blast shape/Essence Invocations), and use the warlock mainly for Eldritch Blast, that would be allowable, but I can't allow the normal Spell-Like Abilities above 4th level (OR any of the EPic Warlock SLA's from the wizards site)
sorry

Solarius - Actually, I don't usualy make my Epic NPC's immune to sneak/Crit, unless it's natural (Constructs, Oozes, Undead).
And I only stated a half dozen vamps, there's gonna be like 50-100 contenders total.
That being said, there would probably be a dozen or so (NPC) Fighters immune to crits/Sneak attack.

Tric - A shifter would be pretty cool.


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## Tric (May 11, 2007)

Alright, Shifter sounds good. Thanks for looking over my concept.


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## Lord_Raven88 (May 11, 2007)

For this sort of game I'd be very tempted to submit something using the Soul Eater PrC, so obviously something focused on unarmed melee attacks.


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## Brother Allard (May 11, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> NO LA!!!



Sweet!


> Bear Warrior's loose all their equipment when shapeshifted, as per polymorph.  You may want to take that into consideration.



We should probably clarify this, because the polymorph/wildshape/alternate form rules are really, really confusing.  The polymorph -> alter self chain specifies that an item "remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item)".  It's wildshape that specifies that all items are melded into the new form and rendered nonfunctional.  It's not clear, in any case, to what extent the bear form ability is related to polymorph - it's referenced in the ability description, but the ability is obviously closely tied to rage, and isn't exactly base on polymorph.  Wildshape isn't reference at all.  In other words, there's lots of room for interpretation.  My reading has been that, like polymorph, any items for which a bear has item slots would remain.  So the question then becomes: which item slots does a bear have?  Draconomicon seems to suggest that a quadruped could have quite a few, but it seems there's a fair bit of disagreement.


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## Avalon® (May 11, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> ...
> Any of the "power builds" from the Wizco Optimization Boards (If you don't know what these are, GOOD.  if you do, Don't try them.)




So no theoretical builds then? Can I join another of your games Jemal? They rock!


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## Jemal (May 11, 2007)

Brother A - 
Well, personally I think that if the item makes sense, then it's ok.  But you'd have to wear it in a form that works on the bear, too. (IE BOOTS wouldn't automatically translate, neither would gloves/gauntlets.  Rings wouldn't work, Armour would need the 'wild' ability, but Bracers, Anklets(instead of boots), Necklace(Collar?), Vest, Cape shouldn't be a problem.

LR - OOOH, scarey.   I've seen some nasty stuff with them.

Avalon - Sure, and as for 'theoretical' builds, what do you mean?


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## Avalon® (May 11, 2007)

The gamebreakers like Punpun and the Hulking Hurler and co.


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## Jemal (May 11, 2007)

OH, yeah that's what I was talkign about.

no uber-charger, Twice-betrayed of Sharn, PunPUn, etc.


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## Shayuri (May 11, 2007)

Arr, thanks for feedback. I'll knock my head around and see what I can come up with as far as a non-caster fighter goes. Sadly, someone already grabbed Shifter...cuz that woulda been my next choice. Hee. Well done, sir.


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## Lord_Raven88 (May 11, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> Brother A -
> Well, personally I think that if the item makes sense, then it's ok.  But you'd have to wear it in a form that works on the bear, too. (IE BOOTS wouldn't automatically translate, neither would gloves/gauntlets.  Rings wouldn't work, Armour would need the 'wild' ability, but Bracers, Anklets(instead of boots), Necklace(Collar?), Vest, Cape shouldn't be a problem.
> 
> LR - OOOH, scarey.   I've seen some nasty stuff with them.
> ...



Well I've actually got three possible concepts that would be pretty fun

1. Tauric Halfling/Blink Dog: The ultimate sneaky fighter
2. Feral Winged Human Barbarian/Warlock: Death from above
3. Feral Barbarian / Pyrokitetist/ Soul Eater: Melee bad-@rse

Do you have any preferences from the above.


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## moritheil (May 11, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> As for the Epic ruling, I usually count LA last, after all the HD are factored in.
> 
> Moritheil - Solars, Balors, and Dragons, when played correctly, KICK ASS.
> (Plus, how freaking cool are they?)
> OH, and the BEST high LA template to add to pretty much anything... PARAGON.




Ha.  I was mostly thinking about how most outsiders seem to only have 12 or so HD at ECL 20 when I made that post.  At that point, they have neither the attack bonuses of a straight 20 fighter type, nor the caster level a pure caster needs to break through SR.  I'll take your word for it that they kick ass, though.


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## Shayuri (May 11, 2007)

Mori, check out the stats on the Trumpet Archon in Prevention.

I believe the rogues gallery is up as Epic Problem or something like that.

ECL 30 Trumpet Archon, and his combat stats are actually better than my dragon's! It can be done...though it might be a lot harder at lower ECL's.

** You know what might be fun? Epic Psuedodragon. A former familiar that learned magic from his boss...who then passed away, leaving all his lewt to his familiar. HMMM.

ALL TREMBLE BEFORE THE MIGHTY DRACOMAGE...BUTTERWINKS!!


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## Voidrazor (May 12, 2007)

Ooh! I'd love to do an epic warrior. One of the things that kind of annoys me about D&D is that at higher levels, one is 'forced' towards playing casters from an optimization POV. Er, come to think of it I'll probably still splash in some low level magic/psioncs anyway  :\ . Would manuevers (from Tome of Battle) over 4th level be allowed?

Offhand, I'm thinking of playing an Anthropomorphic Elephant Crusader/Legendary Dreadnought.


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## moritheil (May 12, 2007)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> Mori, check out the stats on the Trumpet Archon in Prevention.
> 
> I believe the rogues gallery is up as Epic Problem or something like that.
> 
> ECL 30 Trumpet Archon, and his combat stats are actually better than my dragon's! It can be done...though it might be a lot harder at lower ECL's.




Yeah, trumpet archons have +10 str and +16 con, and +6 to most other stats, IIRC.  I went through once and noticed that their ability mods are MUCH better than other comparable LA archons, and better than most angel ability mods as well.

The main thing that bugs me about archons in general is that their teleport is Su, not Sp, which means that depending on how a DM rules things it may be impossible to ever get quickened teleport.  (The quickshift spell has wording that could be interpreted to allow it, but no Quicken SLA.)


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## crazy_monkey1956 (May 12, 2007)

Now that I think about it, I think I shall have to bow out.  I'm really just a start from level 1 kind of guy.

Thanks.


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## Avalon® (May 12, 2007)

Jemal, would you allow the use of the thri-keen (MM2 version)?


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## Jemal (May 12, 2007)

Lord_Raven88 said:
			
		

> Well I've actually got three possible concepts that would be pretty fun
> 
> 1. Tauric Halfling/Blink Dog: The ultimate sneaky fighter
> 2. Feral Winged Human Barbarian/Warlock: Death from above
> ...




NO, they'd all work.. though I must ask two things: 

First, info on Pyrokinetesist.
Second... You wouldn't happen to know a short little twink from Saskatoon would you?  Your char. concepts are startlingly familiar...


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## Jemal (May 12, 2007)

Shayuri - *L* Actually that psuedodragon background sounds almost exactly like the background of the Weasel you guys are looking for in Prevention. 

voidrazor - No TOB or Psionics.  i don't like playing with them.
also.... Anthropomorphic Elephant? *L* this I gotta see.

Avalon - Thri-keen... isn't that a psionic race?  Some info, pls...


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## Avalon® (May 12, 2007)

There are two versions of it. One in the EPH and the other in the MM2. Basically its an insect-like humanoid with four arms.

Also, the pyrokineticist doesn't progress manifester level but requires you to have a power point reserve.


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## Lord_Raven88 (May 12, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> NO, they'd all work.. though I must ask two things:
> 
> First, info on Pyrokinetesist.
> Second... You wouldn't happen to know a short little twink from Saskatoon would you?  Your char. concepts are startlingly familiar...



The Pyrokineticist is detailed here. Technically it's a Psionic character.   

But since it doesn't provide access to any psionic abilities and the PP reserve req. can be achieved thru the wild talent feat, you don't need any levels in a psionic character to qualify for it. So I'm hoping that this isn't actually violating your "No Psionic" rule.   

Secondly I'm flattered by your insinuation. But truth to tell I'm pretty hopeless at trying to create a 'power build' character.  I mainly like playing strange and unusual creatures and go for more style than substance.

BTW what's Saskatoon? or are you referring to the um _'vigourous'_ conversation that you aroused from a certain epic character you submitted.  

If it's not regarding that I'll have to admit that I'm clueless and I need you to fill me in.    

And since you're fine with any of my characters submissions, I will start working on the Tauric Blink Dog submission. (which will probably end up a blend of the three ideas anyway    )


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## Jemal (May 12, 2007)

LR- no, Saskatoon is the city I live in.  (Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada.  Betcha couldn't spell that... oh wait, this is written... damit.)

As for the Pyro/Wild Talent, I'm against Psionics period, regardless of whether it's from a psionic book or gives manifester, or whatever... I just don't like them, sorry.


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## Lord_Raven88 (May 12, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> LR- no, Saskatoon is the city I live in.  (Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada.  Betcha couldn't spell that... oh wait, this is written... damit.)
> 
> As for the Pyro/Wild Talent, I'm against Psionics period, regardless of whether it's from a psionic book or gives manifester, or whatever... I just don't like them, sorry.



Dude I just realised that you said you're short! 

That's gratifying for me as someone who was short most of his life and who eventually graduated to average height. That's means that there is at least two people I'm taller than in the whole world. Sure the first guy has no legs but it still counts you know.

[sblock=Saskatoon]So um you mean the Saskatoon that is centrally located in the province of Saskatchewan, Canada, in townships 36 and 37, range 5 and township 36, range 6, west of the third meridian (Latitude 52.24 North, Longitude 106.67 West). The city that lies 780 kilometres northwest of Winnipeg, a little over 520 kilometres southeast of Edmonton, and just over 300 kilometres north of the U.S. border.

The Saskatoon that is situated on the banks of the south Saskatchewan river which is crossed by seven bridges within the city limits. the altitude of which is 481.5 meters above sea level. The Saskatoon city that covers an area of 144 sq. kilometres which includes over 120 hectares of riverbank parklands.   

Sorry my bad I um thought you meant the other Saskatoon, you know the one in Ireland. 
_______________

Isn't the internet great, it can make dumb-@sses like myself appear knowledgable. 

Hey don't look at me like that, it's not like you've ever heard of Christchurch let alone New Zealand before you looked at my Location under my user name. 

If it makes you feel any better I had heard the them Saskatchewan before (it's a german expresion right    ) and I can even pronouce it correctly[/sblock]

Also that's pretty funny that there is another twisted fellow out there who thinks like me. 

But for the record you're a twinker and I'm not. I'm a wannabe twinker who never seems able to pull it off. 

[back on track]
Also that's cool about the psionics ruling. 

Um sure it sucks the very life out of my character ideas and leaves behind a frail hollow shell. 

But you know I'm cool with you ruining my life.    very cool  
[/back on track]

All jesting aside that's fine


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## Shayuri (May 12, 2007)

Hah! You're right! I actually got the idea from another character that was submitted to another game waaaaay back...I can't even remember by whom now. And I think the notion was even mentioned in Tome and Blood, which is an interesting book because it deals with familiars with detail never done again, even in the TWO "Complete" books that deal with magic. But yeah...the liberated familiar of an epic mage has all the ingredients necessary to be a pretty good mage itself, especially if it has access to its ex-master's gear. 

And to me, there's something hilarious yet cool about such a humble creature having so much power.

"Awww look, a little shoulder dragon!"

*meteor swarm meteor swarm empowered maximized horrid wilting*

Hee.

And of course...I like the idea of the little guy having Leadership, and his less powerful cohort pretending to be the mage as his pseudodragon master feeds him lines telepathically.


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## Avalon® (May 12, 2007)

Jemal, so... is the thri-keen a go?

Here's their stats in the Expanded Psionics Handbook:
[sblock]Thri-keen Racial traits:

Monstrous Humanoid
Medium Size
Base land speed: 40 ft.
Daekvision 60 ft.
Immunity to magical sleep effects
+3 Natural Armor
Multiple Limbs: Thri-keen have four arms and thus can take the Multiweapon Fighting feat instead of the Two-weapon fighting feat. They can also take the multiattack feat.
Natural Attacks: They have 4 claws and a bite attack. The claw does 1d4 damage and the bite is a secondary attack that also does 1d4 damage.. If he is wielding weapons, he can make a bite or claw attack as a secondary attack.
Poison: Bite, Initial damage 1d6 dex, secondary damage paralysis. DC 11+Con mod. A thri-keen only produces enough poison for only one poisonous bite per day.
Leap: +30 racial bonus to jump checks
Weapon Familiarity: Treat gythkas and chatkas as martial weapons instead of exotic weapons.
Naturally Psionic: gain 1 bonus power point at 1st level.
Psi-like abilities: 3/day - chameleon, know direction. 1/day - psionic displacement, metaphysical claw. ML equal to 1/2 HD. Saves are Cha based
Racial HD: Thri-keen begin with 2 levels of monstrous humanoid that provide 2d8 HD, BAB of +2, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +0, Ref +3, and Will +3.
Racial Skills: A thri-keen's monstrous humanoid levels grant him skill points equal to 5x (2+Int). Class skills are Balance, Climb, Hide, Jump, Listen and Spot.
+4 racial bonus to hide checks in sandy or arid settings.
Racial Feats: A thri-keen character gains Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat. In addition, his monstrous levels give him one feat.
Automatic Languages: Common and Thri-keen. Bonus Languages: Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, Halfling
Favored Class: Ranger
LA +2
 [/sblock]

So how about if we remove the the psionic stuff in exchange for reducing the LA?


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## Jemal (May 12, 2007)

Avalon - Sure.  I'll give it to you, drop the 'naturally psionic', change the psi-like abilities to SLA's for any that can be directly translated (Displacement & Know Direction), and drop the LA to +1


Shayuri - heh, I'm liking him allready.  You want a humanoid for a familiar?  Then everyone'll think YOU'RE the familiar. *hehe*

LordRaven - Um.. hehe.. sorry?
And no, I wasn't refering to myself, but my roomate and good friend. (He's actually got an account on the boards here, and plays, though I'm not allowed to tell which one.. I think he's embarrassed of me.  )
He likes coming up with.... 'interesting' Concepts.  They just ALSO happen to always end up super-powered, even the ones that seem like they shouldn't be.
You should see what he can do with a bard.


> Also that's pretty funny that there is another twisted fellow out there who thinks like me.
> 
> But for the record you're a twinker and I'm not. I'm a wannabe twinker who never seems able to pull it off.



  There's quite a few of us in Saskatoon.  And we weren't always twinkers, it just kinda.. developed...
You're well on your way though, Grasshopper.  You have started down the path.  "Know what you want, make it cool, THEN figure out how to make it kick ass within the rules".


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## Avalon® (May 12, 2007)

That's the guy who helped you make Whin right? Also, can we use LA buy-off?


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## Jemal (May 12, 2007)

yes to the first question, NO to the second.

I said it in my other game, but I'll repost here for those who didn't read it or missed it.
I have no problem with LA Buy-off at lower levels, but at higher levels it becomes Free LA
If you want to lower the LA/Racial HD of a creature, just ask and I'll see what I can do, though It would be all/part of the Unique Special power of your charachter.


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## Avalon® (May 12, 2007)

No problem with that. I'll just have to figure out what my special power will be. What level are we starting at?


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## ethandrew (May 12, 2007)

Soooo, I haven't really read through all the submissions or everything, but are you guys full-up for this game?


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## Jemal (May 12, 2007)

well, considering I haven't even 'officially' begun recruiting, I'd have to say no, we're not full.

Lets see, who has posted interest & Character Concept: 

Moritheil - Possibly something with a High LA
Shayuri - Possible PseudoDragon (THough remember this is supposed to be no high-end spellcasting.. i think we temporarily lost sight of that)
Brother Allard - Feral Half-Ogre BearWarrior
Solarious - Rogue/Swashbuckler
Tric - Druidic Shifter
Lord_Raven - Tauric Halfling Blink Dog (Sneaky)
Avalon - Thri-Keen
Voidrazor - Anthropomorphic Elephant Crusader/Legendary Dreadnought
Ethandrew - 
Autumn - 
*Crazypixie Dropped*

Wow.. that's almost what I had in the other one, and lets see... 2 of you are IN my other Epic game, meaning 8 new players.

Did I miss anyone?  I think I should probably cap it there, and I haven't even made the game officially Recruiting yet!
I love my job.  

OK, I'll work up some Char Generation Info for you guys to work on, and will expect characters around the 22nd/23rd (At least a good draft, with most kinks worked out, not neccesarily finalized).  I'll still be coming on to check up, and answer questions, though.


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## Tric (May 12, 2007)

Alright, you're the boss.


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## ethandrew (May 12, 2007)

I'm at work so I don't have any of my books with me, but I'm thinking of running a bard. I'd cap it at 4th level spell casting, so there's no worries about progressing. I believe it'd stop at around 12th level total for bard, the rest might be monster levels or a melee heavy PrC. I'll get you something more concrete by tomorrow at least, Jemal.


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## Jemal (May 12, 2007)

One thing for those of you who ARE going to have spells/SLA's:
Pls don't have too much of your character based around them, this IS supposed to be Fighters.  When I said 'no more than 4th level spellcasting', I didnt mean "Everyone take the best buffs&spells up to 4th level."

Keep in mind the spirit behind the rule, and not just the rule itself, I always say.

Now, heeeere's Johny: 

ER, i mean character guidelines.

LVL 40, I won't be handing out/Dealing with individual XP's, I'll be giving you level ups when the time comes.  I'd prefer it if the PC's didn't have anything that required XP expenditure(Though if you think it would be fun, I'm open to talking), and I will be ignoring the Multiclassing Xp Penalties.
Gold: As normal for lvl 40.
Allowed Sources: 
Core(Including ELH), Complete's, Draconomicon.  Keep in mind the previous restrictions (No Psionics, Incarnum, Book of 9, and no spellcasting/SLA's above 4th lvl spells.)  If you want something from outside these sources, ask.

Equipment: Any printed in the above sources.  If you want something specific from another source, Ask + give description.  I WILL be allowing Item stacking (putting multiple abilities onto 1 item for extra cost) and using the Slot affinities.  You may also make any Worn item slotless by doubling it's cost.
In addition, I will allow you to buy up to +40 Skill Enhancers.  These are as per the DMG chart, and must make sense. (Instrument for perform, glasses for spot, boots for movement-related skills, etc, etc) .

I'd also like a bit (lot not required, but SOME required) of background, as well as your character's reason for being here (Against his/her will, wanted to prove self, trying to find out what's REALLY happening, etc).
Finally, I'd like to know if YOU have any idea for what sort of 'unique Extra' Your character might have, or if you'd like me to pick something.

If there's anything else, Just ask.

PS: I'm logging off now, will be back in about 14-15 hours.


----------



## Jemal (May 12, 2007)

*ALso, this may seem like common sense, but have SOME way of getting at hard-to-reach opponents (Flying, standing on cliff, etc).  

One of the most powerful NPC's in the first Tournament(Whom I thought would be one of their hardest fights) died to flight + Shield of Infinite Deflection b/c he I forgot to give him a means to fly, and his Throwing/Returning Great Axe was not enough.  Especialy when he's frenzying + can't run away.

5 minutes of 
"RARGH!"*TING*;  "Rargh!"*Ting*;  "Rargh..."*Ting*;  "rargh?"*TING!*.

*THUD!*  "Is he dead yet?"


----------



## Rino (May 12, 2007)

thinking of doing an Avoral Guardinal dex fighterish type


----------



## Brother Allard (May 12, 2007)

There's a proposed epic progression for bear warrior over here that looks about right to me.  I'd be curious to know what you think of it.


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## ethandrew (May 12, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> One thing for those of you who ARE going to have spells/SLA's:
> Pls don't have too much of your character based around them, this IS supposed to be Fighters.  When I said 'no more than 4th level spellcasting', I didnt mean "Everyone take the best buffs&spells up to 4th level."




If you'd allow, I'd trade out a bard's spellcasting ability with Full BAB. I know it's not necessarily a fair trade for the bard's part, but this fits better with the build I'm looking for, and magic wasn't always a big part of it.


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## moritheil (May 12, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> One thing for those of you who ARE going to have spells/SLA's:
> Pls don't have too much of your character based around them, this IS supposed to be Fighters.  When I said 'no more than 4th level spellcasting', I didnt mean "Everyone take the best buffs&spells up to 4th level."




Heh.  Having a minimum of casting ought to simplify things.


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## Shayuri (May 12, 2007)

I think I'm going with a ranger/beastmaster/duellist with a monk's belt...

Dual kukri. 18HD dire wolf companion that she rides into battle. No armor. Savage warrior!

Might have to dip into Scout or Barbarian too...hmm. We shall see.

Ooo...or even better, a dragon disciple! Rawr!


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## Jemal (May 13, 2007)

Hmmm... I'd say no to the Epic Bear Warrior.  Epic versions of a class are not supposed to keep getting new abilities.  (Note that the Barbarian, which Bear Warrior is based off, does not continue geting more and more powerful rages at Epic, though it can take a SINGLE feat which gives bonuses).

By the Rules, an Epic Bear Warrior would gain extra rages at the same rate, and have 1 Bonus Epic Feat/3 levels, with the same Bonus Epic Feat list as the Barbarian.
Mighty Rage would give an additional +2 Str/Con and +1 Will saves (The same improvement as it has over Greater Rage), and I'd allow Dire Bear Form to qualify as Greater Rage for pre-requisites on Epic Feats.

ethandrew - Hmm, I'll try to think of something good.  How much Bard were you planning on taking?

Shayuri - As a DM, I personally don't like the Monk's belt adding Wis to AC, as that can become an insane AC boost for pocketchange.

Rino - Cool, though be warned that puts us at 11 prospective players, and I'm not sure I can take that many...


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## ethandrew (May 13, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> ethandrew - Hmm, I'll try to think of something good.  How much Bard were you planning on taking?




I was looking at maybe running a Djinni Fighter 7 | Bard 20, and which in that case the BAB progression wouldn't matter since Epic progression would trump it.

One question, in your epic campaigns, do you allow characters to trade an epic feat for an ability score boost? I never knew if that was standard or a house rule.


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## Rino (May 13, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> Rino - Cool, though be warned that puts us at 11 prospective players, and I'm not sure I can take that many...




I'll just get a character up and see what happends, i dont mind


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## Voidrazor (May 13, 2007)

Jemal - Would you allow a Saint (Book of Exalted Deeds), Anthropomorphic Animal (Savage Species, I mentioned the anthro-elephant earlier), and/or War Hulk (Miniatures Handbook)? My character concept is starting to get very weird, sort of a massively muscled patron saint of freaks. Although, actually being a saint isn't as key as some of the other aspects of the character I had in mind.


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## Jemal (May 13, 2007)

ethandrew said:
			
		

> I was looking at maybe running a Djinni Fighter 7 | Bard 20, and which in that case the BAB progression wouldn't matter since Epic progression would trump it.
> 
> One question, in your epic campaigns, do you allow characters to trade an epic feat for an ability score boost? I never knew if that was standard or a house rule.




Actually, that's not a 'trade', nor is it a house rule, Those are Epic Feats straight out of the ELH.  They're called "Great Strength", "Great Dexterity", "Great Wisdom", etc.  Each gives a +1 un-named bonus to the associated ability score.  they can be taken multiple times, but I believe they have a requirement that you have 25 in the score first...

Rino - cool

Voidrazor - Um... yeah, a little weird is right.   'scool, though.  I'm OK with SAINT, but I'm very strict about PC's following the strictures of sainthood.  Anthro is ok, and as for War Hulk, I'd need the info on it, don't have Mini's Handbook.


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## Brother Allard (May 13, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> Hmmm... I'd say no to the Epic Bear Warrior.  Epic versions of a class are not supposed to keep getting new abilities.  (Note that the Barbarian, which Bear Warrior is based off, does not continue geting more and more powerful rages at Epic, though it can take a SINGLE feat which gives bonuses).




Fair enough.  Incidentally, I'm also considering levels in war hulk.


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## Autumn (May 13, 2007)

I'm thinking of going with a Monk/Tattooed Monk/Shadowdancer. Not yet sure about race; maybe Half-Celestial, if you would let me trade out the SLAs for something more in keeping with the tone of this game. 

 A Paragon Human might also might work - but I'm having difficulty finding a sound reference for the LA on the Paragon template. Would you allow it? And if so, at what LA? I've seen it pegged a couple of times at +15 LA, but that seems to be a House Rule rather than anything official. What do you think?

Paragon Template for easy reference.


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## Rino (May 13, 2007)

is it 32 point buy or Invisible castle rolls


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## Jemal (May 13, 2007)

34 point buy.

As for Paragon, there is no 'OFFICIAL' Wording on it, though the +15 you've got is from when a bunch of us over at the Wizards Optimization Boards went over it for a while and that's what we all managed to agree on.

I'll allow Paragon at +15, BUT in keeping with the game, It won't gain the SLA's. (I don't think that loosing Greater Dispel, See Invis, and Haste 3/day is much of a pain to a Paragon, though).

As for Half-celestial, I'll drop the LA by one to compensate for loosing them.  How's that sound?


----------



## Autumn (May 13, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> 34 point buy.
> 
> As for Paragon, there is no 'OFFICIAL' Wording on it, though the +15 you've got is from when a bunch of us over at the Wizards Optimization Boards went over it for a while and that's what we all managed to agree on.
> 
> ...




 Sounds very fair, though actually looking at the template I'm having second thoughts. Some of its perks (DR and SR in particular) are overridden by a Monk's ability, and the Ability bonuses are nice but not overwhelming compared to other stuff of a similar LA. 

 So then... Paragon. Maybe. It's definitely an awesome template, but I wonder if it's worth losing all those Epic Feats. No Vorpal Strike, no Devastating Critical... hmmm. 

 Needs some thought, clearly. 

 At any rate I'll be going with the Monk concept, I'm sure of that at least.


----------



## Jemal (May 13, 2007)

well, it definitely depends on what kinda characte you're going for, but it DOES have alot of good stuff, which compensates for Epic feats...

+25 all attacks (Epic Prowess gives +1 all attacks)
+20 all damage rolls (Epic W.Spec gives +4 to single weapon's damage)
+15 all stats (Epic feat gives +1 to single stat)
+29 AC  (Armor Skin gives +1 ac)
+10 All Saves. (Epic Will/Fort/Reflex gives +4 to one save)
+10 All Skills. (Epic Skill Focus gives +10 to one skill)
Fast Heal 20 (Fast Heal feat gives 3)
Dr is /Epic, which is better than /Magic granted by Monk (Though just a warning, NEITHER will be very effective in this campaign.  Everybody's got an Epic Attack at level 20.)
SR =CR+25[SR 65] vs Monk40 [SR 10+Lvl=SR 50].   (Another warning, as it's a 'fighter' campaign, SR is less meaningful also)
TRIPLE Speed (!!!!!!), not Triple 'base' speed, Triple SPEED.  (Epic Speed gives+30. Taken twice, it Triples the normal human's speed).
ALSO, Paragon's gain a bonus Epic feat according to my ELH.

Though the DOWNSIDE is that you loose 15 class levels.  It's not the EPIC Feats I'd worry about, but the other stuff, like possible extra abilities from multiclassing.

As for Dev Crit, you COULD take it if you wanted, and it would be basically your only feat.
BUT, the DC would be much higher...
Sure, you loose 4 ability points from level, but you gain +15 to STR, and a +13 to all Special Attack DC's, such as the Save DC vs Dev Crit.

Not specifically trying to change your mind, just pointing out that it's pretty damn good.. depending on what you're trying to do with it.


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## ethandrew (May 13, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> Actually, that's not a 'trade', nor is it a house rule, Those are Epic Feats straight out of the ELH.  They're called "Great Strength", "Great Dexterity", "Great Wisdom", etc.  Each gives a +1 un-named bonus to the associated ability score.  they can be taken multiple times, but I believe they have a requirement that you have 25 in the score first




That's what I figured, but I wasn't sure. How does playing a Djinni sound? I know that plane shifting is moot, but otherwise, all the special abilities (minus wind walk) are lower level stuff.


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## Autumn (May 13, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> well, it definitely depends on what kinda characte you're going for, but it DOES have alot of good stuff, which compensates for Epic feats...
> 
> +25 all attacks (Epic Prowess gives +1 all attacks)
> +20 all damage rolls (Epic W.Spec gives +4 to single weapon's damage)
> ...





 Good points for sure. I'm definitely thinking seriously about Paragon, not ruling it out by any means, particularly as it could be rather fitting for my concept of an ascended, enlightened wanderer. 

 Another thing I'm thinking about, though, is possibly drawing up a homebrewed 'Enlightened' template to run by you, since you specifically mentioned that you might be amenable to customized stuff in this game. If I did then I would probably attempt to balance it for about a +5 or so LA, which would give me somewhat more room to manoeuvre with my class levels. 

 Oh, after actually looking at the class it occurs to me that Tattooed Monks suck pretty hard. So strike that off of my plan for the crunch. Not sure if I'll look at taking another PrC or... what. Of course if I go with the Paragon template then it'll be a moot point since I won't have to worry about disposing of anywhere near so many class levels.


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## Shayuri (May 13, 2007)

Shayuri - As a DM, I personally don't like the Monk's belt adding Wis to AC, as that can become an insane AC boost for pocketchange.

--

I completely agree! Most GM"s seem to allow it, but honestly, I dislike that interpretation. Cool. So if I want that bonus, I'll dip into monk or ninja... Mew.


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## Voidrazor (May 13, 2007)

There's a preview of the War Hulk here near the bottom of the page. The preview doesn't include a write-up for the Hulks main drawback, below.

No time to think (Ex): A character with levels in the war hulk prestige class is considered to have 0 ranks in all Intelligence-, Wisdom-, and Charisma-based skills (whether or not he has bought ranks in them previously). The only exception is Intimidate skill, which works normally.


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## Avalon® (May 14, 2007)

Jemal, would the bracers of relentless might allow me to wield weapons two sizes larger that the norm?


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## moritheil (May 14, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> 34 point buy.
> 
> As for Paragon, there is no 'OFFICIAL' Wording on it, though the +15 you've got is from when a bunch of us over at the Wizards Optimization Boards went over it for a while and that's what we all managed to agree on.
> 
> ...




Ah, I was wondering since I looked at Paragon and realized there is no official LA.    

What would happen to a Tulani?  I'm guessing that meteor swarm, time stop, etc. as SLAs do not fit with the theme you want.



			
				Autumn said:
			
		

> Oh, after actually looking at the class it occurs to me that Tattooed Monks suck pretty hard. So strike that off of my plan for the crunch. Not sure if I'll look at taking another PrC or... what.




They're actually okay for the setting they were intended to work with (Rokugan), which is generally low-level and very low on magical healing.  Not so good for a standard campaign, and probably no good in epic.


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## Jemal (May 14, 2007)

Tattooed monk is a dip class.  1 or 3 levels to get 1 or 2 tatoos.  Some of them are very nice, but I can't think which off the top of my head...


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## Jemal (May 14, 2007)

Now, to other questions:

ethandrew - Djinni are ok minus the more powerful SLA's.  I'll even let you keep wind walk b/c it fits with Djinn and I don't think it's gonna break anything.  It's essentially a flight variant.

Voidrazor - Looks acceptable.  Just for the record, I'm hoping you would actually Roleplay that 'no time to think' drawback.  To me, it seems like it's not JUST you don't have ranks in the skills, it implies a mentality that wouldn't try anyways.

Avalon - Hmm, I believe so.  It effectively lets you be one size category larger, so if you WERE medium, you could use large weapons at no penalty, or Huge weapons at the standard -4 penalty.

Moritheil - Tulani?  Info,pls?


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## Avalon® (May 14, 2007)

Jemal, maybe you're thinking of strongarm bracers? Bracers of relentless might are from the ELH.


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## Brother Allard (May 14, 2007)

Jemal: would the Bear Totem variant Barbarian from UA be acceptable?

link: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bearTotemClassFeatures


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## Rino (May 14, 2007)

talking about spell likes
A  avoral guardinal’s list of spell-like abilities: 
At will—
aid 
blur (self only) 
command,
detect magic 
dimension door 
dispel magic 
gust of wind,
hold person 
light 
magic circle against evil (self only) 
magic missile,
see invisibility 
3/day—lightning bolt. Caster level 8th.

keep them all or lose a few? or dropp them all?


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## Autumn (May 14, 2007)

Okay, I think I've decided that I'm going to try to get a custom Enlightened template approved. I'm just trying to work out how best to implement the concept I have, and I think it involves too many class levels for Paragon to be a good choice.

 So, my thoughts on it so far. It isn't written up in proper style yet, this is just to give you an idea of where I'm thinking of taking it.

[sblock=Enlightened] Can be applied to any Humanoid, Monstrous Humanoid, Outsider or Undead with a Wisdom of 16 or better and an Alignment that is partly Neutral (Neutral Good, Lawful Neutral, True Neutral, Chaotic Neutral, Neutral Evil).

 Type changes to Outsider if it is not already. Enlightenment is a way of transcendence, and humanity and mortality are left behind. The Enlightened one can no longer be affected by any spell that would bring him back from the dead, if he could previously. Part of Enlightenment is realizing the detachment to accept your fate and to understand that death is merely a transition. 

 +8 Dex, +4 Con, +4 Int, +12 Wis, +8 Cha. One who has found enlightenment exists in a permanent state of awareness and experiences utter synchronicity between body, mind and soul. He has perfect command of himself both physically and mentally. 

 An Enlightened person does not need to eat, drink, sleep or breathe. 

 +5 Insight Bonus to AC and Attack Rolls. The intense awareness of one's surroundings and one's place in them that comes with Enlightenment is a significant advantage in a combat situation.[/sblock]

 I'm open to suggestions for any other abilities it should gain. I was wondering whether it should have DR and/or SR. Obviously they're not much use to me, but still... they make sense for the template, so perhaps the 'honest' thing to do would be to put them in, not sure.

 Also not sure what LA it should have. As I said, I was aiming for about +5. It's probably that already, I would think, so if more abilities are added I might have to lower some of the current bonuses.


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## moritheil (May 14, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> Moritheil - Tulani?  Info,pls?




Whoops, I was too brief.  Tulani eladrins are from BoED; they are outsiders with +10 LA and numerous spell-like abilities as well as the ability to manifest +4 brilliant holy swords.  It's actually very weird that they have Time Stop (Sp), since they have no summoning or DBF-like SLAs.  Other high-level SLAs include heal and meteor swarm.


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## Avalon® (May 15, 2007)

Jemal: I forgot to include the racial ability mods for the thri-keen. Here they are:
+2 Str, +4 Dex, -2 Int, +2 Wis, -4 Cha

Also, can you help me make an epic progression for the dervish PrC?


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## Brother Allard (May 15, 2007)

Another question: a dire bear has the natural attacks 2 claws (2d4) and bite (2d8).

If that bear advanced from large to huge (by virtue of a magical effect) and then added the morphic weapons enhancement from warshaper on top of that to make the weapons size gargantuan, what would the damage be?

I'm assuming the claws go 2d4 -> 2d6 -> 3d6,
and the bite goes 2d8 -> 3d8 -> ??? either 4d8 or 3d10, I would guess, but on the advancement chart on MM 291, 3d8 is the highest, so no real help there.  If you were to add Jaws of the Dragon from Draconomicon to make the bite colossal, what would it be then?


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## Voidrazor (May 15, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> Now, to other questions:
> 
> Voidrazor - Looks acceptable.  Just for the record, I'm hoping you would actually Roleplay that 'no time to think' drawback.  To me, it seems like it's not JUST you don't have ranks in the skills, it implies a mentality that wouldn't try anyways.



I had been hoping to use my character special to lessen the effect of 'no time to think', but a fanatic that disapproves of book learning and diplomatic niceties might be a fun change of pace. The build I'm planning on at this point is a Sainted (+2 LA) Half-Ogre (+1 LA?) Were-Cachalot (12 monstrous HD +2 LA) Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale (3 monstrous HD) Paladin 3 / Fighter 2 / Monk or Exotic Weapon Master 2 / War Hulk 15. He's more of a protector of the oceans than saint of freaks at this point. Being huge, I had this mental picture of him wielding a chain with an anchor on either end.

A few more questions:

Would you allow armor enhancements to be applied to clothing?

Could I get sizing armor? If so I was thinking a +2 weapon bonus cost was about right.

No flaws allowed, right?

Which version of the half-ogre template should I use?


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## ethandrew (May 15, 2007)

Voidrazor said:
			
		

> I had been hoping to use my character special to lessen the effect of 'no time to think', but a fanatic that disapproves of book learning and diplomatic niceties might be a fun change of pace. The build I'm planning on at this point is a Sainted (+2 LA) Half-Ogre (+1 LA?) Were-Cachalot (12 monstrous HD +2 LA) Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale (3 monstrous HD) Paladin 3 / Fighter 2 / Monk or Exotic Weapon Master 2 / War Hulk 15. He's more of a protector of the oceans than saint of freaks at this point. Being huge, I had this mental picture of him wielding a chain with an anchor on either end.




I like the build, but I have to ask: your character is the product of an Ogre-Baleen Whale coupling?


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## Autumn (May 15, 2007)

Lol. I hope he has a high Str score, or he'll topple over under the weight of all those templates.


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## moritheil (May 15, 2007)

ethandrew said:
			
		

> I like the build, but I have to ask: your character is the product of an Ogre-Baleen Whale coupling?




Heh.  This is starting to look like that crosslinked OOTS forum thread about anthropomorphic animals   

It's cool, though.  Voidrazor's crazy style just happens to involve template amalgamation.  He's not bad at RP once the campaign starts rolling.


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## ethandrew (May 15, 2007)

moritheil said:
			
		

> Heh.  This is starting to look like that crosslinked OOTS forum thread about anthropomorphic animals
> 
> It's cool, though.  Voidrazor's crazy style just happens to involve template amalgamation.  He's not bad at RP once the campaign starts rolling.




Oh I know, I've read some of the games he's been in, very good. And my comment wasn't a dig at the least. I just chuckled thinking of that lonely Ogre, walking along the ocean, out for a good time...


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## Voidrazor (May 16, 2007)

Thanks and LOL. He thinks he's the progeny of an ogre and a whale, but I may have him actually be the result of magical experimentation. And yeah, he's got an awful lot of templates. Originally, I wasn't planning on the half-ogre part, but its necessary for an anthropomorphic animal, whose type is monstrous humanoid, to take lycanthropy, which is only available to humanoids and giants. This is gonna be a fun character to build


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## Autumn (May 16, 2007)

Not to give anybody the impression I'm indecisive or anything I hope, but some thought about how I can best take in the flab from my planned build has convinced me that I should go with the Paragon template after all. 

 I'm thinking of Fighter 4/Monk 16/Shadowdancer 5. Should get time to get down to serious number crunching sometime tomorrow.


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## moritheil (May 16, 2007)

Voidrazor said:
			
		

> Thanks and LOL. He thinks he's the progeny of an ogre and a whale




Wow.  And we say that people in real life have issues regarding their parents . . .


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## Tric (May 17, 2007)

I'm pulling out. Right now my life take presidence and I do not have the time for an undertaking of this magnitude.

Have fun, Autumn. I'll see you in chat. For sparta!!!

Good luck everyone. Remember to enjoy yourself between all those bouts of number-crunching.


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## Jemal (May 18, 2007)

OK, don't have much time but wanted to catch up here so you guys can continue.  I should be back on for good by sunday.

Tric - That's too bad, maybe next time.

Autumn - Cool, can't wait to see it.  Are you still using that Enlightened template then, or switching to Paragon?

Voidrazor - the char Sounds like fun.... Weird, Anime style fun, but that's how I like my Epic games. 
As for your questions:
No I don't allow Clothing to be enchanted as Armour (nor do I allow bracers to have armour enhancements beyond the straight AC bonus).  There has to be SOME downside for those classes that don't wear armour.  Sizing armour sounds good @ +2, though

No Flaws.
Use the +1 Savage Species Half-Ogre.

Brother-Allard : I'll figure out the Bear damage later, just leave it for now.
I can't seem to access that link from this comp, I'll check it later, but go ahead for now, I'm  pretty sure I've seen that variant before, it sounds familiar.

Avalon - Yes, I was thinking of the Strongarm's.  Relentless Might does not NORMALLY let you wield larger weapons, is says it just gives the size bonus as 2 larger for grapple/etc.
As for Epic Dervish, It's pretty easy.  Keep progressing the speed bonus, AC bonus, and Dervishes/day.  Also, your Slashing weapon bonus while in a dervish remains 2/3 lvls, and the bonus Epic feat progression is 1/4.  That's just off the top of my head, but I think I got everything.

Everyone who's playing Outsiders : I've been thinking about all those SLA's that the outsiders seem to get, and I've decided I'm not happy with letting a lot of that in the campaign.  If you REALLY want to play one of those races (Tulani, Avoral, etc), post a complete list of SLA's they get, and I'll be snipping it.  If you don't like the snips, then we'll talk about it, but As I've said before, This is a tournament for Warriors.  Some magic is cool, and the occasional lightning bolt/invisibility spices things up, but...


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## Brother Allard (May 18, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> Brother-Allard : I'll figure out the Bear damage later, just leave it for now.
> I can't seem to access that link from this comp, I'll check it later, but go ahead for now, I'm  pretty sure I've seen that variant before, it sounds familiar.





			
				SRD said:
			
		

> A barbarian dedicated to the bear totem does not gain the standard fast movement, uncanny dodge, trap sense, and improved uncanny dodge barbarian class features, and instead gains the following abilities.
> 
> * A 1st-level bear-totem barbarian gains Toughness as a bonus feat.
> * At 2nd level, a bear-totem barbarian gains Improved Grapple as a bonus feat, even if he doesn't meet the normal prerequisites.
> ...



I'm also considering a few magical items from sources others than those you listed.  I'd like to run them by you:

 * Soulfire armor ability (BoED 112) - immune to all death spells, magical death effects, and energy drain, and any negative energy effects (such as from chill touch or inflict spells).
 * Blindsighted weapon ability (Und 68) - blindsight to a range of 30 feet.
 * Necklace of natural weapons (SS 58) - the enhancement bonuses and weapon qualities on this necklace are applied to attack and damage rolls involving one or more of the wearer's natural weapons. (in this case, claws only)
 * Ring of adamantine touch (BoED 115) - allows the wearer to make melee weapon attacks and natural attacks as though wielding an adamantine weapon.
 * Ring of growth (SS 54) - This ring allows the wearer to speak a command word and instantly grow in size, doubling its height and multiplying its weight by 8.  The usual effects apply.  1/day for 9 minutes.
 * Ring of 9 lives (MoF 146) - If the wearer ever drops to 0 hit points or below, the ring expends one of its [9] charges to cast a heal spell upon her. The wearer can also expend a charge if she fails a saving throw, allowing her to treat the saving throw as a success.
 * Antimagic torc (Und 73) - 1/day antimagic field, as the spell, centered on wielder.  This build is pretty grapple heavy - this item is here to defeat freedom of movement, if necessary.


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## Autumn (May 18, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> Autumn - Cool, can't wait to see it.  Are you still using that Enlightened template then, or switching to Paragon?




 I'll go with Paragon I think. The Enlightened template had a distinct concept but I realised that the more I was working on the crunch of it, the more it was just looking like Paragon-lite. Which seems a little silly.



			
				Brother Allard said:
			
		

> * Necklace of natural weapons (SS 58) - the enhancement bonuses and weapon qualities on this necklace are applied to attack and damage rolls involving one or more of the wearer's natural weapons. (in this case, claws only)




 I'd be very interested in getting one of those too, they're a great option for a Monk. Let me know if you'd allow it.


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## moritheil (May 19, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> Everyone who's playing Outsiders : I've been thinking about all those SLA's that the outsiders seem to get, and I've decided I'm not happy with letting a lot of that in the campaign.  If you REALLY want to play one of those races (Tulani, Avoral, etc), post a complete list of SLA's they get, and I'll be snipping it.  If you don't like the snips, then we'll talk about it, but As I've said before, This is a tournament for Warriors.  Some magic is cool, and the occasional lightning bolt/invisibility spices things up, but...




Doh   If I can find the time, I'll type it up.  It's a really long list, which leads me to believe that you might not like it.   :\   On the plus side, most of the SLAs are low-level; it's only the big three (heal, meteor swarm, time stop) that aren't.


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## Solarious (May 19, 2007)

Looks like Paragon is the weapon of choice. Let it be mine as well, because it seems to simplify so many things for those of us getting our feet wet while remaining fairly powerful regardless.

What's your take on the Void Incarnate? It's an Epic Insights EPrC on the Wizards site. I realize that many of it's features are quite suboptimal for this kind of campaign, with the lack of magical firepower and all, but it also captures the character backstory I've thought of to explain the Paragon template quite well. Also, would you allow Void Presence to interact with Improved Feint the same way as the Beguiler's Surprise Casting (as in feinting as a swift action)? *also pines for the Empty Body 9th level class ability to bypass all the Bracers of Armor going around the unarmored Wis-to-AC types*

In addition, will you approve Races of Destiny's _Able Learner_ feat? It allows all cross-class skills to be purchased at 1 skill point instead of 2, has to be taken at 1st, and requires human or doppleganger race (or Changeling, for Eberronphiles everywhere ).

What is your policy on the Int boost from Paragon? Will you allow it to increase skill points from level 1? Even if character history doesn't involve the Paragon template until late non-Epic to first-step-Epic? *whistles innocently at the editing tool at the back of my mind*

For those of us working off SRD, what's a 40'th level character's budget?

Last question: when do you want these sheets done?


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## Rino (May 19, 2007)

talking about spell likes
A avoral guardinal’s list of spell-like abilities:
At will—
aid
blur (self only)
command,
detect magic
dimension door
dispel magic
gust of wind,
hold person
light
magic circle against evil (self only)
magic missile,
see invisibility
true seeing
3/day—lightning bolt. Caster level 8th.


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## Jemal (May 19, 2007)

Permanent Intelligence Increases give bonus skill points starting the level they are gained, and are not retroactive.

I think I'm gonna say no to Able Learner

I know Void Incarnate and don't like it too much as a DM.. I'll think about it.

Bear Totem is ok.



> * Soulfire armor ability (BoED 112) - immune to all death spells, magical death effects, and energy drain, and any negative energy effects (such as from chill touch or inflict spells).



No


> * Blindsighted weapon ability (Und 68) - blindsight to a range of 30 feet.
> * Necklace of natural weapons (SS 58) - the enhancement bonuses and weapon qualities on this necklace are applied to attack and damage rolls involving one or more of the wearer's natural weapons. (in this case, claws only)
> * Ring of adamantine touch (BoED 115) - allows the wearer to make melee weapon attacks and natural attacks as though wielding an adamantine weapon.



Depends on cost.


> * Ring of growth (SS 54) - This ring allows the wearer to speak a command word and instantly grow in size, doubling its height and multiplying its weight by 8. The usual effects apply. 1/day for 9 minutes.



I assume the "usual Effects" means as though increasing size 1 step? (+2 str, -2 dex, -1 size mod to ac/attack, increased size mod for grapple/trip).  
Or is it based on Righteous Might?
Also, cost?


> * Ring of 9 lives (MoF 146) - If the wearer ever drops to 0 hit points or below, the ring expends one of its [9] charges to cast a heal spell upon her. The wearer can also expend a charge if she fails a saving throw, allowing her to treat the saving throw as a success.



No


> * Antimagic torc (Und 73) - 1/day antimagic field, as the spell, centered on wielder. This build is pretty grapple heavy - this item is here to defeat freedom of movement, if necessary.



Sure.



			
				Avoral Gaurdinal said:
			
		

> At will—
> aid
> blur (self only)
> command,
> ...



Hmm.  True Seeing 3/day, drop Comand, Hold Person, Aid, Blur.
LA is reduced by 1.

I won't need the sheets for a while yet, keep working.


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## Rino (May 19, 2007)

okay, then I'll modify.

btw, my sheet is 50% done


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## Autumn (May 20, 2007)

Necklace of Natural Weapons affecting one type of Natural Weapons (i.e. Claws, Bite, or a Monk's Unarmed Strike) costs 600 gp + the normal price for a magical weapon. So 2600 for +1, 8600 for +2, 18600 for +3, 32600 for +4 and so on and so forth.


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## Brother Allard (May 20, 2007)

I should have included costs in the original message.  An oversight.

* Blindsighted weapon ability (Und 68) *+30,000 gp* - blindsight to a range of 30 feet.
* Necklace of natural weapons (SS 58) *600 + cost of enhancement bonuses multiplied by number of natural weapon types (in this case, one)* - the enhancement bonuses and weapon qualities on this necklace are applied to attack and damage rolls involving one or more of the wearer's natural weapons. (in this case, claws only)
* Ring of adamantine touch (BoED 115) *120,000 gp* - allows the wearer to make melee weapon attacks and natural attacks as though wielding an adamantine weapon.
* Ring of growth (SS 54) *18,000 gp* - This ring allows the wearer to speak a command word and instantly grow in size, doubling its height and multiplying its weight by 8. The usual effects apply. 1/day for 9 minutes. 

And yes, the last is based on enlarge person/animal

Incidentally, soulfire is a +4 bonus - it's powerful, but quite expensive.


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## Avalon® (May 20, 2007)

Jemal, may I request the use of the following things:

-Expeditious Dodge feat from Races of the Wild
-Wrathful Healing ability from Enemies and Allies
-Bondleaf Wrap armor from Arms and Equipment Guide
-Various items from Magic Item Compendium along with the rules presented within for adding common magical abilities to magical items.

Also, what is your stance on thri-keen and item slots (rings, gloves and bracers)? Are they able to wear twice as much as a character with only two arms?


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## Jemal (May 21, 2007)

Avalon - As stated before, i can't approve something until I've received info on what it does.
Also, regardless of # of limbs, a creature is still limited to the same # of magic item slots.

Brother_A - No on the blindsight
the rings of adamantine touch and growth are both good.
I'm gonna say no to that necklace, but I DO allow the Amulet of Mighty Fists to apply to all natural AND unarmed attacks.


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## Brother Allard (May 21, 2007)

Fair enough, but I'll need pricing for an epic version of the amulet.


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## Avalon® (May 21, 2007)

-Expeditious Dodge (RoTW, p.150) Gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC until the beginning of your next turn when you move 40 ft or more in a single turn.
-Wrathful Healing (Enemies and Allies, p.20) +3 weapon bonus. Heal damage equal to 1/2 damage dealt by melee weapon. It has no effect if you have full HP.
-Bondleaf Wrap (Arms and Equipment Guide, p.14) *1000gp* Armor. +1 AC. No max dex, acp or arcane spell failure. 
-Deathstrike Bracers (MIC, p.93) *5000 gp* 3/day - Use melee attacks to deal extra damage from crits and sneak attacks to constructs, elementals, oozes, plants, and undead as if they were not immune to extra damage. This does not affect other immunites or resistances to extra damage such as fortification. Last 1 round per use.
-Belt of Battle (MIC, p.73) *12000gp* +2 Competence bonus to Init. It also has 3 charges that are renewed each day at dawn. These charges can be used as a swift action to gain an extra action depending on the number of charges used. 1 charge: 1 move action. 2 charges: 1 standard action. 3 charges: 1 full-round action.
-Strongarm Bracers. I think you already know about this.

Also 2 more:
-Starmantle Cloak (BoED, p.116)*132000 gp*  Take no damage from non-magical weapon attacks. DC 15 reflex save to take half damage from magical weapons.
-Retributive Amulet (BoED, p.116) *56000 gp*  +2 sacred bonus to AC. Whenever you are dealt damage, you take only half while the attacker takes half. If the damage taken is odd, the attacker takes the odd point. (ex: 15 damage = 7 damage for you, 8 for attacker)


P.S.
-Would you allow the rules for adding common item effects found on p.234 of the MIC to be used?

-Why wouldn't thri-keen be able to use twice the number of rings, gloves, and bracers that a normal being would have. He has four arms.


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## Autumn (May 21, 2007)

Avalon® said:
			
		

> -Retributive Amulet (BoED, p.116) *56000 gp*  +2 sacred bonus to AC. Whenever you are dealt damage, you take only half while the attacker takes half. If the damage taken is odd, the attacker takes the odd point. (ex: 15 damage = 7 damage for you, 8 for attacker)





 ... wow. BoED... 

 If this is allowed then I imagine you can sign everyone up for one, even if they cost 10x that.


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## Jemal (May 21, 2007)

brother_a - The amulet costs 3X what a normal magic weapon would cost, so it would be same at Epic (AN EPIC +10 would thus cost 3 Million gp, etc.)

Avalon - 


> -Expeditious Dodge (RoTW, p.150) Gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC until the beginning of your next turn when you move 40 ft or more in a single turn.
> -Wrathful Healing (Enemies and Allies, p.20) +3 weapon bonus. Heal damage equal to 1/2 damage dealt by melee weapon. It has no effect if you have full HP.
> -Bondleaf Wrap (Arms and Equipment Guide, p.14) 1000gp Armor. +1 AC. No max dex, acp or arcane spell failure.
> -Deathstrike Bracers (MIC, p.93) 5000 gp 3/day - Use melee attacks to deal extra damage from crits and sneak attacks to constructs, elementals, oozes, plants, and undead as if they were not immune to extra damage. This does not affect other immunites or resistances to extra damage such as fortification. Last 1 round per use.
> ...



Expeditious Dodge, Wrathful Healing, Deathstrike Bracers, Belt of Battle, and Strongarm bracers are all ok.  I don't like the bondleaf wrap as it seems like just a cop-out easy way to get magical armour and thus save a space for people who don't ordinarily wear armour due to the downsides.(Dextrous fighters + Mages)



> -Starmantle Cloak (BoED, p.116)132000 gp Take no damage from non-magical weapon attacks. DC 15 reflex save to take half damage from magical weapons.
> -Retributive Amulet (BoED, p.116) 56000 gp +2 sacred bonus to AC. Whenever you are dealt damage, you take only half while the attacker takes half. If the damage taken is odd, the attacker takes the odd point. (ex: 15 damage = 7 damage for you, 8 for attacker)



Never have allowed either of these, never will. sorry.



> P.S.
> -Would you allow the rules for adding common item effects found on p.234 of the MIC to be used?



Depends on what they are, I don't have MIC.



> -Why wouldn't thri-keen be able to use twice the number of rings, gloves, and bracers that a normal being would have. He has four arms.



Most people have 10 fingers, they can still only wear 2 magic rings.  Regardless of # or type of apendages, beings can only wear a certain number of magical equipment before it starts interfering with each other.  The main reason for this from the designers PoV was balance.  Why should an Ettin be allowed to wear 2 necklaces and 2 helms?  Or a centaur wear 2 pairs of boots?  
There was an official answer to similar questions from wizards (Or maybe it was the sage) along these lines.  There was a couple real good reasons given, but in the end, it's all about balance.  There are some fairly easy ways to gain extra limbs pretty cheap, why should that let you have more magic items?


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## Avalon® (May 22, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> Depends on what they are, I don't have MIC.




It allows you to add the effects of common magical items (rings of protection, bracers of armor, amulets of natural armor, cloaks of charisma, amulets of con, gloves of dex, headbands of int, belts of str, periapts of wis, resistance to energy, and cloaks of resistance) to specific items slots without multiplying the cost by 1.5. Example: Adding the effects of a cloak of resistance to a cloak of the manta would cost 25,000 gp instead of 37,500 gp.

So... is it a go?


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## Darimaus (May 22, 2007)

I'm interested in making a character for this. I just have a few questions for you, both of which have probably been answered already  . First, whats the LA on paragon, and second, what is the definative level? I'm gonna be working up a Paragon Pseudodragon, though if the level is too low I'll probably switch myself over to not using the paragon. I'll assume we are level 40 in the interest of having some fun with it. This will give me something to toy with when I go on a road trip for the next week.

Plus: How do you feel about allowing items from savage species?


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## Shayuri (May 22, 2007)

Augh...wuh...buh....psuedodragon!

Oh well. I guess I already sorta released the concept.

Dagnabbit.


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## Darimaus (May 22, 2007)

I'm not basing this character off of anything previously posted. Its essentially going to be a rogue using the feats Giant Bane (Complete Warrior), Underfoot Combat (Races of the Wild), and Confound the Big Folk (Races of the Wild). Its a cute little design I've been working on for awhile now.

BTW, another question. If I have the Prehensile Tail feat, can I pair that with Arms of the Naga or Gloves of Man (see previous post  ) in order to make the prereqs for Multiweapon Fighting?


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## Jemal (May 22, 2007)

Avalon - Um.. I don't think I'd allow that, it's specifically the opposite of the way magic item stacking is supposed to work, and I don't see a good reasoning for it other than people wanting to save money.

Darimaus - We're going level 40, and for the purposes of this game, Paragon is LVL 15.  Though Shayuri did post a pseudodragon concept allready... Hmm, relatives perhaps? 

As for items, I've posted before (numerous times though you wouldn't neccesarily know that) that anything outside my sources (Core, and complete arcane/mage/warrior/divine/adventurer) must be described in full before I'll make a decision on it.  This includes ALL feats, classes, prestige classes, races, templates, spells, items, etc that aren't in my above listed books.


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## Caros (May 22, 2007)

*Eh.*

Eh, long time no see Jemal!  Hoping to be able to get in on this. Few ideas bouncing around my head though I'll save posting them till my days off begin tomorrow.

That said, couple of quick things.

The reasoning as stated in the MIC for removing the 1.5x stacking on those specific abilities was because of the proliference of 1-3 times per day items and trinkets.  Basically the book introduced a lot of abilities that, while nifty, would screw your charachter since they take the slots of 'cruicial' items.

Also, the amulet of retribution was reprinted anyways, functions 2 or 3 times per day now (don't have it with me) Sorta useless now for the cost. =)

Also, are you allowing anything at all from your 'banned' books?  Book of nine swords is my specific question because it has a few feats and weapon enhancements that have nothing to do with the quasi-magical nature of the book and could just as easily have appeared in complete warrior or phb 2. Case by case maybe?


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## Jemal (May 22, 2007)

Depends what they are.  Post'em up and I'll take a look


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## Avalon® (May 22, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> Avalon - Um.. I don't think I'd allow that, it's specifically the opposite of the way magic item stacking is supposed to work, and I don't see a good reasoning for it other than people wanting to save money.




As Caros has said, they instituted this rule because many interesting items take up crucial slots that are needed for placing ability-boosting items and such. 

If this is not allowed, I have to rework my items from the ground up.


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## Solarious (May 22, 2007)

I'll repeat my question: what is the GP wealth for level 40? Some of us work off the SRD.


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## ethandrew (May 23, 2007)

Solarious said:
			
		

> I'll repeat my question: what is the GP wealth for level 40? Some of us work off the SRD.




13.6 Million Gold as per the DMG


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## Vertexx69 (May 23, 2007)

Hey there, thinking about bringing in 1 of the epic toons I have made since joining enworld. I had just a couple of questions though. 

Are lvls of ECL taken into account when tallying Ability Increases? ie: 40 ECL = 10 Ability Increases?

What would a half shadow dragons breath weapon be like? (Not the standard 6d8 negative lvls I'd imagine, but maybe the 2d4 of the _drain energy_ spell?)

My concepts are: 
Serraphina DeLecort Half-cel(+3)/Minotaur(6+2)/WereBear(6+3)/fit8/sor1/monk1/shadow dragon disciple 10 
Half shadow dragon(+3)/dryder(6+4)/Lolth-touched(+1)monk1/fit4/acrane archer 21
Paragon(+15)/wiz1/fit9/arcane archer 15

@ Void - What do you think about an adnanced Serraphina entering this little tournament


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## Solarious (May 23, 2007)

SR can go far beyond 45, but you'll need templates for that. And those seem to be a popular method of advancing or improving characters in Epic games, because it stings less, but still gives benefits. For example, the ever-popular Paragon template. 

Characters are typically considered Epic at level 21, and not before, even with LA, when considering feats, BAB, saves, and so on. ECL is not considered for ability increases, only HD.

EDIT: Holy sacred cows. What's the story behind these endless screams of time?  The things that happen when you get distracted...


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## Voidrazor (May 23, 2007)

Vertexx69 said:
			
		

> @ Void - What do you think about an adnanced Serraphina entering this little tournament



Fine with me. But I should warn you that Serraphina was the inspiration behind my character's build. So the two characters would both be lycanthropic spiked chain wielders. 

Jemal - A misreading of the the lycanthropy rules has prompted a bit of change in character build. So I've got yet another list of yea or nay's.

Warbeast template applied to the base animal (giant crocodile) for lycanthropy. +1 HD +10' move +3 Str +3 Con +2 Wis +1 listen & spot +1 CR

Paladin of Slaughter and Monk of the Passive Way.

The Voidmind template (p.42).

The feats Knock-down and Large and in Charge.

The weapon enhancements Eager (+1 for +2 unnamed to Init, +2 to damage rolls in surprise round), Warning (+1 for +5 insight to init), Ki Focus (+1 to use Stunning Fist feat through weapon), Sweeping (+1 for +4 to trip attempts), and Marrowcrushing (+3 for 1 Con damage).


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## Jemal (May 23, 2007)

hmmm.. Actually I'm gona give you guys a flat 14 Million GP.

Vertex - Shadow dragon's breath weapon doesn't deal negative levels, it deals negative energy damage (Much like Inflict wounds and Harm spells).
Also, as has been pointed out by others, you gain ability increases every 4 HD, not ECL.

Avalon - I'm gonna stick with no on that one.  The difference at this level can quite literally be millions of dollars.
*EDIT: On second thought, I'll allow it for the NON-EPIC versions of those items... I wouldn't consider _any_ Epic Item 'common'.

Voidrazor - 
No to Paladin of Slaughter.
Yes to Monk of the passive way.
I don't see the LA on Voidmind...

What's the LA and Racial HD on a Giant Crocodile Warbeast?

The feats and Weapon Enhancements are all good except Knockdown (At epic that's EVERY hit).  Also, I won't let Marrowcrushing stack with Wounding, so it's one or the other.


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## Jemal (May 23, 2007)

Hmmm... Also, one other thing I should say right now.
If there are multiple characters that are VERY similar, I will only accept the one that has been presented in the 'coolest' fashion.

Also, I will only be taking 2-3 Paragons MAX.  

I want to see character sheets ASAP, btw.  Any of you who've gamed with me before know I'm impatient to get moving on stuff, and this is no exception.

I'd like to see at least a basic character sheet including Background/personality and why your character is at the tournament (Even if only to say your character doesn't know why).
I'd like some basics up by the weekend (Or end of it).  
I know some people aren't available to do that right now, but bonus points to those who DO get something posted soon.

Also, anybody who I haven't allready talked to about a 'special power/item', fire me an idea if you got it.  Also, if I've said NO to something, then there's still a chance I'll give it to you as part of your 'Special'.  (Still no spellcasting, Book Of Nine, etc)


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## Vertexx69 (May 23, 2007)

Okey dokey Jemal. 
I would like to throw my Hat in the ring with Tenneth Shafar.

The Half Shadow dragon, Lolth-Touched Dryder: fighter 3/Monk 2/ Arcane Archer 21   
Evil Needs to be represented in this Tournament!

Lolth touched is a template from MM4. Its a blessing from Lolth that gives +6 str, +6 con, darkvision and the SA Fearless. LA +1

(maybe the no lvl adjustment thing for his special and or maybe the dragon born dice advancement for my breath weapon [1D8 per 3 HD]?)

Should we post our builds/background in a RG forum or in this thread? Either way I should have something later today.

Heres a few items and feats Id like consideration on:

[sblock=new things]Ghost gauntlet (DMG2): makes any weapon held in that hand ghost touch, can make parts of itself and hand inside incorporeal (+5 to disable device/open locks), send 1 touched object far away on ehtereal plane (as teleport object) 1/day. 68,782g

Caster glove (DMG2): like storing glove + Item is considered weilded while shrunk, once per round a magical effect can be used as if in hand while shrunk (potion drunk, wand charge used etc.) 25k

Dazzix's vest (DMG2): adds 5 to SR given by SA or other item. 25k

Robe of 2nd chances (DMG2): 1/day reroll before success or failure are determined. 6k
Monks Belt: is it ok to get it if you already have monk lvls?

Dragon Breath (races of the dragon): lets half dragon with 6+HD use breath attack every 1D4 rounds instead of 1/day

Dragon Tail  (races of the dragon): 1st lvl only. gives a dragon blooded character a secondary tail attatck.

Greater Manyshot (Expanded Psionics handbook) dex 17, BaB 6, Manyshot, Pb shot, Rapid shot. When using manyshot, can fire at more than 1 target, roll seperate attacks for each arrow apply all dmg to each arrow and if multi crits are rolled each can deal crit dmg.[/sblock]


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## Voidrazor (May 23, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> Voidrazor -
> No to Paladin of Slaughter.
> Yes to Monk of the passive way.
> I don't see the LA on Voidmind...
> ...



On the Paladin of Slaughter, is that because you don't wan't evil characters in this campaign, or that you prefer Blackguards? If the later, would I be able to retain the Blackguard's class features after loosing the 2 ranks in Know:Religion due to the War Hulk's 'no time to think'?

Voidmind lists +1 on Crystal Keep, but given all the things the template provides it may be a misprint.

Giant War Crocodile would be the 'base animal' used with lycanthropy. Afflicted lycanthropy is a +2 LA template in the SRD. Giant Crocodiles are 7HD, so warbeast ones would be 8HD.

And, heh, maybe knock-down is too good. At MID levels, with a decent Str bonus, that's every hit. With Improved Trip, which is a pre-req, you get 3 attacks in one (trip and 2 damaging attacks) for each iterative or AoO attack against a standing opponent.


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## Vertexx69 (May 23, 2007)

Voidrazor said:
			
		

> And, heh, maybe knock-down is too good. At MID levels, with a decent Str bonus, that's every hit. With Improved Trip, which is a pre-req, you get 3 attacks in one (trip and 2 damaging attacks) for each iterative or AoO attack against a standing opponent.




In the errata for Knockdown it says you don't get the Improved Trip extra attack when using it.


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## Shayuri (May 23, 2007)

Here's one concept I'm developing. The nymph finesse fighter. Not done yet, but I predict a final AC of about 100.

[sblock]Name: Something
Race: Nymph
Class/Level: 6 fey + 7 ECL + 27 levels
Gender: Female
Exp:

Desc

Strength (STR) 28 6
Dexterity (DEX) 36 6 
Constitution (CON) 30 6 
Intelligence (INT) 30 4 
Wisdom (WIS) 36 6 
Charisma (CHA) 42 6 

Alignment: ?
AC: 73 (10 + 11 armor + 13 Dex + 10 Int + 13 Wis + 16 Def)
Hit Points: 6d6+10d10+2d6+15d8 +360
Movement: 50' ground, 20' swim

Init: +23
Base Attack Bonus: +24/+19/+14
Melee Attack: +33/+28/+23
Ranged Attack: +37/+32/+27
Fort: +42
Reflex: +55
Will: +48

Race Abilities
+6 Dex, +2 Con, +6 Int, +6 Wis, +8 Cha
DR 10/cold iron
Low Light Vision
Blinding Beauty DC 29
Dimension Door 1/day SLA
Spellcasting (as 7th level druid)
Stunning Glance DC 31
Unearthly Grace +16
Wild Empathy +22

Class Abilities:
Canny Defense
Improved Reaction +4
Enhanced Mobility
Grace (+2 reflex)
Precise Strike +2d6
Acrobatic Charge
Elaborate Parry
Deflect Arrows

Ki Pool:
Trapfinding
Ghost Step: Invisible

Skirmish (+4d6, +4 AC)
Battle Fortitude +2
Uncanny Dodge
Evasion
Fast Movement +20'
Trackless Step
Bonus Feats (Spring attack, combat expertise, improved initiative)
Flawless Stride
Camoflauge
Blindsense 30'
Hide in Plain Sight

Skills:
110 fey
Concentration 9 ranks
Diplomacy 9 ranks
Escape Artist 9 ranks
Handle Animal 9 ranks
Heal 9 ranks
Hide 9 ranks
Listen 9 ranks
Move Silently 9 ranks
Perform (sing) 3 cc ranks
Ride 5 ranks
Sense Motive 9 ranks
Spot 9 ranks
Swim 9 ranks

26sp nin

225sp scout

110sp duellist
Balance (Dex)
Bluff (Cha)
Escape Artist (Dex)
Jump (Str)
Listen (Wis)
Perform (Cha)
Sense Motive (Wis)
Spot (Wis)
Tumble (Dex)

Feats
1 Dodge
3 Weapon Finesse
6 Mobility

9 Ability Focus: Stunning Glance
12 Weapon Focus: Rapier
15 Improved Critical: Rapier
18 Bounding Assault

21 Infinite Deflection
24 Exceptional Deflection
27 Reflect Arrows
30 Epic Weapon Focus: Rapier
33 

Languages - Common, Sylvan, Elven, Orcish, Goblin, Draconic, ?, ?, ?

Money - 214,400+1.04mil

Weapons - Green Destiny +9, +49 to hit, 1d6+18 dmg, 15-20crit, x2, 6.485mil
+9 Starmetal Defending, Ghost Touch, Undead Dread Rapier


Armour -
	None

Gear -
	None


Magic -
Headband of Intellect +6, 36k
Vest of resistance +5, 25k

Bracers of Epic Armor +11, 1.21mil
Cloak of Charisma +10, 1mil
Periapt of Wisdom +10, 1mil
Gloves of Dexterity +10, 1mil
Belt of Strength & Con +8, 1.312

All Tomes 825k

Background: 
	None[/sblock]


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## Voidrazor (May 24, 2007)

Here's my character thus far. It has some magic items that I haven't cleared yet that are a legacy from the character sheet I copied the format from. I'll work on that part soon.


Tehrazhon, the Abomination in Chains
[sblock=Background]For the first few years after his creation, Tahrazhon believed he was the offspring of  a stone giant and a magic whale, and destined to be a guardian of nature. He had fond childhood memories of mountain vistas and the harmony of the sea. He took on faith that serving ‘Grandfather’ Theros, and elderly arcanist was part of his duty. In time a rival wizard attacked, using fell troops that mixed the most fearsome aspects of humans and great crocodilians trained for war. 

Tahrazhon was injured in the attack but managed to escape. His master was less fortunate. The wizard’s passing released the enchantment upon the giant’s mind. He remembered the pain from eldritch energies used in his creation and the barred cell where he actually spent his childhood. Horrified, he turned to a peaceful monastery nearby, hoping to come to terms with his identity. But beneath a sanguine moon, Tahrazhon discovered that the bite of the crocodile men had left a terrible curse. In a mindless rage, the transformed giant slew his gentle brethren and left nothing of the monastery but rubble.

From that point Tahrazhon wandered, consumed by his curse. In time, he came to embrace what he referred to as Sebek’s Kiss, destroying whole townships for money or just the joy of slaughter. While hired to procure a relic hidden in the depths of the earth, he ran afoul of an Illithid holdfast. If there had been anything left of the original Tahrazhon it was destroyed that day. For the mind flayers’ powers quickly overcame the freakish giant, and most of his brain was consumed, replaced with a foul but potent secretion.  

The Illithids’ new slave was soon sent back to the surface to wreak havoc upon their enemies. Enhanced, by the slime that had replaced most of its brain, Tahrazhon’s already formidable prowess quickly grew to that of a legend. Whole cities were flattened before the creatures might, and despite the danger of being in his proximity, the freakish giant gained a following of mongrelmen. Yet, despite the vengeance by proxy the mind flayers brought upon the surface, their fortunes waned. Two of the illithids that had transformed the giant were slain in lightning raids by Drow. The remaining mind flayer was subsumed into the holdfast’s elder brain in order to maintain control of their prize. Even that measure was only partly effective, constantly the mindlessly destructive nature of Tahrazhon’s lycanthropic curse vied the ancient aberration’s mental dominance. But the elder brain soon found an opportunity to capitalize on its powerful but untrustworthy resource. A tournament of the greatest warriors in all creation was about to be held, and the spoils for winning such a competition promised to be very, very useful. Certain that a victory there could be parleyed into eventual dominance of the underdark, it entered Tahrazhon in the legendary event.[/sblock]
	
	



```
Male Voidmind (+2 LA) Half-Ogre (+1 LA) Anthropomorphic Whale (3 HD +0 LA) afflicted with Lycanthropy (Giant War Crocodile) (8 HD +2 LA)
Monk of the Passive Way 2 / Fighter 2 / Blackguard 2 / Warshaper 3  / War Hulk 15

Strength    100  (+45)  14 base +6 Enchantment +5 Inherent +1 Levels +4 Voidmind +6 Half-Ogre +8 Anth Whale +20 Were-Croc +4 Warshaper +30 War Hulk
Dexterity    32  (+11)  14 base +6 Enchantment +5 Inherent +1 Levels +2 Voidmind -2 Half-Ogre +4 Anth Whale +2 Were-Croc
Constitution 40  (+15)  15 base +6 Enchantment +5 Inherent +4 Levels +2 Voidmind +4 Anth Whale +4 Warshaper
Intelligence 12  (+1)    8 base +4 Inherent +2 Voidmind -2 Half-Ogre
Wisdom       32  (+11)  14 base +6 Enchantment +5 Inherent +1 Levels +4 Anth Whale +2 Were Croc
Charisma     24  (+7)   15 base +6 Enchantment +5 Inherent +2 Levels -2 Voidmind -2 Half-Ogre

Size: Huge
Height: 20 ft
Weight: 3 tons
Skin: Blue
Eyes: Grey, flecked with gold
Hair: none
Age: 33 years

HP:  (8 + 15d8 + 4d10 + 15d12 + 540 Con)
AC: 65 (10 base +12 Dex +8 Armor +5 Deflection +3 Profane +15 Natural +11 Monk +1 Insight) 50 Touch 49 Flat-footed
Initiative: +26 (+11 Dex +2 Eager +5 insight:Warning +8 Superior Initiative)
BAB: +23 Grapple: +76

Fort 64 (19 base +8 Epic +15 Con +10 resistance +3 Profane +1 Ioun Stone +1 Luckstone +7 Paladin)
Ref 56 (14 base +8 Epic +12 Dex +10 resistance +3 Profane +1 Ioun Stone +1 Luckstone +7 Paladin)
Will 51 (10 base +8 Epic +11 Wis +10 resistance +3 Profane +1 Ioun Stone +1 Luckstone +7 Paladin)

Melee Attack +76 (+23 BAB +45 Str +6 Enhancement +1 Competence +1 Epic Prowess)
Ranged Attack +41 (+23 BAB +11 Dex +5 Enhancement +1 Competence +1 Epic Prowess)

1 Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale 1 
2 Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale 2
3 Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale 3
4 Were Giant War Crocodile 1
5 Were Giant War Crocodile 2
6 Were Giant War Crocodile 3
7 Were Giant War Crocodile 4
8 Were Giant War Crocodile 5
9 Were Giant War Crocodile 6
10 Were Giant War Crocodile 7
11 Were Giant War Crocodile 8
12 Monk of the Passive Way 1
13 Monk of the Passive Way 2
14 Fighter 1
15 Fighter 2
16 Blackguard 1
17 Blackguard 2
18 Warshaper 1
19 Warshaper 2
20 Warshaper 3
21 War Hulk 1
22 War Hulk 2
23 War Hulk 3
24 War Hulk 4
25 War Hulk 5
26 War Hulk 6
27 War Hulk 7
28 War Hulk 8
29 War Hulk 9
30 War Hulk 10
31 War Hulk 11
32 War Hulk 12
33 War Hulk 13
34 War Hulk 14
35 War Hulk 15

Feats
Voidmind Bonus Feats: Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Great Fortitude
Lycanthrope Bonus Feat: Iron Will
Monk Bonus Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
Fighter Bonus Feats: Power Attack, Cleave
War Hulk Epic Bonus Feat: Dire Charge
1st EWP - Spiked Chain
3rd Improved Initiative
6th Large and in Charge
9th Leadership
12th Stunning Fist
15th Improved Sunder
18th Leap attack
21st Improved Combat Reflexes
24th Superior Initiative
27th Deft Opportunist
30th Epic Prowess
33rd Epic Sunder 

Skill Points 123 (12 @ 1st, 6 @ 2nd-3rd, 24 @ 4th-11th, 10 @ 12th-13th, 6 @ 14th-15th, 6 @ 16th-17th, 5 @ 18th, 9 @ 19th-21st, 45 @ 22nd-36th)
Skill Name	         Ability   Total	Mod	Ranks	Misc.
Hide                      Dex      29 =         +3      +20  +1 Luck, +5 Competence
Intimidate                Cha      48 =         +7      +36  +1 Luck, +1 Competence
Jump              	  Str	   55 = 	+45	+8     +1 Luck, +1 Competence
Knowledge (religion)	  Int	    1 = 	+1 	+2(0)	
Listen                    Wis	    ? = 	+11	+?      +1 Luck, +1 Competence
Move Silently             Dex      25 =         +11     +8        +1 Luck, +5 Competence	
Spot         	          Wis	    ? = 	+11	+?     +1 Luck, +1 Competence	

Skill Tricks: 

Equipment 

[B]Arms[/B] - Strongarm Bracers 6k
[B]Head[/B] -  Crown of Sorcerous Terror 200k + Scout's Headband (+2 competence to Spot. 3 charges/day - 1 charge: darvision 60' for 1 hr, 2 charges: See Invisible for 10 min, 3 charges: True Seeing for 1 min) 3,400
[B]Face[/B] -  Basilisk's Mask (Wearer always makes his/her save vs. Gaze Attacks. Gains Feat: Diehard. If the wearer’s hit-points drop to –10 or lower, he/she does not die until the end of
the next round. If healed to –9 or higher before the end of the next round, the wearer
automatically stabilizes and does not die. After 3 uses of this ability, the Mask looses
its magic) 47,500 + Mask of Fury (Wearer can Rage as a Barbarian twice per day. To activate, the wearer must smear the mast with his/her own blood (Standard Action + 3hp damage). If the wearer has been wounded within the last hour, the Rage can be activated as a Free Action & no additional damage is taken) 18k
[B]Shoulders[/B] - +20 Intimidate 40k + Mantle of Second Chances 9k (1 re-roll per day)
[B]Throat[/B] -  Periapt of Wisdom +6 36k + Amulet of Health +6 54k + Antimagic Torc 37,500
[B]Body[/B] - Dyr's Impervious Vestments 123K + Ghost Shroud 5k (+1 defclection to AC, attacks have stike incorporeal normally)
[B]Torso[/B] - Vest of Resistance +10 1,000k
[B]Hands[/B] - Gloves of Dexterity +6 36k
[B]Waist[/B] - Epic Belt of Strength +12 1,440k + Belt of Battle 18k (+2 Competence bonus to Init. It also has 3 charges that are renewed each day at dawn. These charges can be used as a swift action to gain an extra action depending on the number of charges used. 1 charge: 1 move action. 2 charges: 1 standard action. 3 charges: 1 full-round action.)
[B]Feet[/B] - Boots of Teleportation 49k + Boots of Speed 18k + Steadfast Boots 2,100 (+4 bonus to avoid bull rush, trip, or overrun attacks. Any two-handed weapon you carry is treated as if readied against charges.)
[B]Finger[/B] - Ring of Deflection +5 50k
[B]Finger[/B] - Ring of Feeedom of Movement 40k + Ring of Sustenance 3,750

Large Eager (+2 unnamed to Init, +2 damage in surprise rnd) Warning (+5 insight to Init) Wrathful Healing (heal 1/2 damage dealt) Sweeping (+4 trip) Sizing Vicious Wounding Ki- Focus Starmetal Spiked Chain +6 5,790,770
Huge Composite Longbow (+10 in ench) 205,700
Large Sizing Defending Eager Spiked Gauntlets +5 98,610
+4 Tome of Clear Though 110k (Used)
5 +5 Tomes&Manuals 137,500ea 687,500gp
Eversmoking Bottle 5,400
Rod of Absorption 50k
Luckstone 20k
Dusty rose Prism Ioun Stone (+1 insight bonus to AC) 5k
Pale Green Ioun Stone (+1 competence bonus on attack rolls, saves, skill checks, and ability checks) 30k
Iridescent Spindle Ioun Stone (Sustains creature without air)  	18k
Handy Haversack 2k
Sphere of Awakening (Awaken all allies within 60'. Remove exhaustion and fatigue from same. All are immunie to fatigue, exhaustion and sleep effects for 10 min after activation) 1,800
30 vials of Enlarge Person potion 250ea 7,500
30 vials of Fly potion 750ea 22,500

Remaining funds 3,713,970
```


----------



## Vertexx69 (May 24, 2007)

wow! war hulk is sooo broken  and voidmind should totally change type to undead, especially since he said no psionic stuff :..( I miss my third eyes.


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## Vertexx69 (May 24, 2007)

Alrighty then Jemal here is the 95% version of Tenneth. without any special added bonuses.

[sblock=story]The tale of Tenneth Shafar is a sad one indeed, but does not begin with him. 

     In the underdark, some time ago, there was a young drow woman named Shanana Shafar. Her beauty was unsurpassed and it led to her most gruesome demise. She was a wizard of Lolth, and fast approaching the time of her ultimate test. One day while harvesting mushrooms in the deep caves, the floor gave way depositing her quite roughly to the bottom of a chamber she had never seen before. Unfortunately this was the home of an immensely foul tempered shadow dragon, who saw this as an insufferable trespass. But on seeing her beauty thought of the perfect vengeance to wreak upon her. Shanana was ravaged for days before her limp, used body was thrown back out the hole she had inadvertently created. 

     After what seemed like days more she came to and made her way home, using her masterful disguise skills to hide her shame. But a few months after the wounds had healed, she discovered a much more serious violation had occurred. She was with child, but could tell nobody. 

     The day of testing arrived, and she was nearly full term. And when she was brought before the spider queen herself as a failure, Shanana knew there was but one punishment. As the goddess’ finger pointed to her, the pain was truly blinding. But at the same time she did not feel herself changing. Instead, the horror that started tearing its way from inside her told the truth of the matter. The wings, claws, teeth and tail left no time to consider her fate as the child  rose from the shredded remains of his mother, on wobbly spider legs. He grew to his fully monstrous proportions in a matter of moments, born with the memories of her, as the goddess watched with fascination. Beckoning him to her, he approached utterly without fear, pulling a chunk of draped flesh from his shoulder and eating it. At this she smiled and whispered, “Ah, mother’s milk. You have murdered your way into this world my young Tenneth, I think you might have a great future. But you cannot stay in this Underdark child, your test shall be what you can make of yourself alone. Know that none shall ever love you, save me.”  And as she leaned forward and kissed his bloody forehead, he stretched his damp new wings and his eyes flashed red. Then he was on the surface, unbidden, unwelcome, and unafraid. 

     Days later while stalking through an empty and forgotten battlefield, he found an old rusty helmet. When he placed it on his horn crowned head, he felt something besides hunger. He felt a need to help and that this helmet was now his forever (Cursed helm of opposite alignment CE>LG while worn). Magics came as naturally as breathing but interested him only for a short while. The murder vanished from his eyes and Tenneth wandered. In an ancient temple he found a small child crying amongst piles of discarded robes. Dressing himself in them he consoled the youth and led her back to the outskirts of her village, where stories of the strange dark monk are still told to this day.  

     However, that small village was the exception to the rule of monsters. As Tenneth traveled the land, he was met more with screams of terror than with disdain or anything else. And had to learn his “monks”  ways fairly quickly from an old blind man just to survive. But early in his training, a brutal blow shattered the helm from his brow and the hunger returned along with the fiery glow in his eyes. He set upon his tutor with such ferocity that when the smoke cleared there was nothing left of the blind monk but a bloody smear, and an oddly full feeling.

     The wars that found this abomination taught him fast the value of weaponry more versatile than his claws, and the bow came naturally to his attention.  Tenneth started to notice himself drawn to the darker places of the world and his immunity to its rotting denizens’ touch meant he could take what he wanted. And so he did. Tenneth rained bloody death down from the heavens on any he met and none could stand before his fury. 

     After many years Tenneth found his way back into the underdark, returning as a lord of war and great champion of darkness, he found his way to the one who loved him. “You were right my dark goddess, you were the only one that loved me in all the world.” The words fell from his lips like a chisel etching steel. Bowing before her as she smiled her immutable smile. “You have done well, my blackest prince. There is now a task I would set for you. The champions of many worlds will soon gather, and you will send their hearts to their lesser gods.” A terrifying new expression of glee burned its way across his face as he bowed deeper. The bloodlust rising in anticipation.[/sblock]


[sblock=spoiler stat block]Tenneth, Shafar

Half shadow dragon(+3 LA), Lolth-Touched(+1 LA) Dryder(6+4 counts as 6 lvls of wizard): 
Wizard1 / Monk 2nd / Fighter 2nd /Arcane Archer 21st

Large Dragon
Hit Dice: 10+1D4+8D10+22D8+544 (699)
Initiative: +17
Speed: 50 ft. / 105 ft. fly (good)/climb 15 ft.

Adjusted Abilities: (base+racial+inherent+enhancement+level)
Str: 42/+16 (10+18+4+10)
Dex: 44/+17 (16+4+4+12+8)
Con: 44/+17 (16+14+4+10)
Int: 24/+7 (8+6+4+6)
Wis: 34/+12 (16+6+4+8)
Cha: 24/+7 (10+8+6)

Saves: (Dragon6+wizard1+fighter2+monk2+arcane archer10+ability+magic+epic+luck+comp)
Fortitude: 53 (5+0+3+3+7+17+10+6+1+1)
Reflex: 50 (5+0+0+3+7+17+10+6+1+1)
Will: 47 (5+2+0+3+3+12+10+6+1+1)

Armor Class: 85 (10 Base, +17 Dex, +12 Wis, +1 Monk, +15 Natural, +15 Armor,
+5 Defense, +10 Deflection, +1 insight, -1 size) touch 55, flatfooted 68

Base Attack/Grapple: +25/+49

Attack (30ft. or closer): +11 Composite Longbow(+11 str bonus) +47 ranged (5 arrows)(1D10 + 23 +2d4 level drain/X3) or +7 scimitar +47 melee (2d6 + 31 /15-20X2) or +5 Gauntlet +45 (1D8 +21/X2) or breath

Attack (outside 30ft.): +11 Composite Longbow(+11 str bonus) +57 ranged 1D10 + 23 +2d4 level drain/X3

Full Attack (30ft. or closer): +11 Composite Longbow(+11 str bonus) +47/+47/+42/+37/+32/+27 ranged (5 arrows each)(1D10 + 23 +2d4 level drain/X3) or +7 scimitar +49 melee (2d6 + 31 /15-20X2) or +5 Gauntlet +47 (1D8 +21/X2) and breath

Full Attack (outside 30ft.): +11 Composite Longbow(+11 str bonus) +55/+55/+50/+45/+40/+35 ranged (1D10 + 23 +2d4 level drain/X3) 

Space/Reach: 10ft/5ft

Special Attacks:
Imbue arrow
Seeker arrow 1/day
Phase arrow 1/day
Hail of arrows 1/day
Arrow of death 1/day
Breath weapon:

Special Qualities:
Spell Resistance 37
Damage Reduction 15/Adamantine
Immunity to gases, ranged attacks, sleep, critical hits, energy drain
Resistance +30 to fire, cold, electricity, sonic, acid
Low-light vision
Darkvision 60ft
Enhance arrow (+11)
D-door 3/day
Repel Vermin
Evasion

Spells cast: 4/6/5/4/3
Spells Known: all 1st-4th from Phb

Spell like abilities:: 1/day dancing lights, clar, darkness, detect good, detect law, detect magic, dispel magic, faerie fire, levitate, suggestion

Feats:
1 Weapon focus (Composite Longbow)
3 Rapidshot
6 Dragon Breath
-- Scribe scroll (bonus wizard)
-- Improved unarmed strike (bonus monk)
-- Improved grapple (bonus monk) 
-- Combat reflexes (bonus monk)
9 Improved Sunder
-- Point Blank Shot  (bonus fighter)
-- Precise shot (bonus fighter)
12 Practiced spellcaster
15 Manyshot
18 Deflect arrows
21 Exceptional Deflection
24 Infinite deflection
-- Uncanny accuracy (bonus epic arcane)
27 Reflect arrows
-- Improved Manyshot (bonus epic arcane)
30 Greater Manyshot

Items: 14 mil
Tomes & Manuals +4 110k X5 550k,
circlet of stealth (hide) 40 1.6 mil +(int 6 54k)
Scabbard of keen edges 19k
Falchion of  Ruin 1mil
Rod of Invulnerability 600k
Amulet of Con 10 1 mil  +Wisdom 8 960k  +(adaptation 13k)
Ghost gauntlet 68.8k +(+5 defending 108k, caster X2 75k) 251.8k
Souldrinker 478k, Composite longbow(+11) 1.5k  479.4k
Ring of greater universal energy resistance 216k + (counterspelling X3 18k) 
Bracers of armor 15 2mil  +(greater archery 37.5k) 
Ring of protection 10 2mil +(invisibility 30k) +(Growth 27k) + (Freedom of movement 60k)
Belt of giant strength 6 36k +(monks 19.5k)
Goggles of seeing 75k 
Cloak of epic resistance 10 1mil  +(mounteback X3 45k) + (cha 6 54k) 
+ (capote of dragonfly wings 127.5k)
Dusty rose Ioune stone 5k
Greaves of epic dex 12 1.44mil 
Quiver of elohna 1.8k +(elohna X9 24.3k) 26.1k
Daazzix's vest 25k
Portable hole 20k
Pale green ioune stone 30k
Luckstone 20k
Barrels of arrows (500 each) X6 600g
Candle of Invocation X2 16.8k
Feather Tree Token X10 8k
Smokesticks w/ tindertwigs attached to end X20 420g
Wand of Web 4500g
Boccob's blessed book 12.5k
Wand of Improved Invisibility (lvl20) 60k

37,595g unspent

Skills: (rank+ability+racial+competence+magic+luck)+synergy
292 skill points (Monster 90 / fighter 18 / monk 16 / arcane archer 168)


Hide (Dex) +136/116 attacking while hiding (30+17+8+40+40[20]+1)
Move Silently (Dex) +49 (30+17+1+1)
Concentration (Con) +29 (10+17+1+1)
Search (Int) +16 (10(20pts.)+4+1+1)
Survival (Wis) +35 (20+13+1+1)
Listen (Wis) +45 (30+13+1+1)
Spot (Wis) +84 (30+13+40+1)
Intimidate (Cha) +19 (10(14pts.)+7+1+1)
Spellcraft (Int) +16 (9+4+1+1)
Bluff (Cha) +13 (10(20pts.)+2+1)
Sense Motive (Cha) +19 (10(20pts.)+7+1+1)
Open Lock (Dex) +24 (1+17+5+1)
Disable Device (Int) +11 (1+4+5+1)
Diplomacy (Cha) +18 (10(20pts.)+7+1)
Gather Information (Cha) +9 (1+7+1)
Knowledge Dungeoneering (Int) +22 (16(32)+4+1+1)[/sblock]


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## Avalon® (May 24, 2007)

Jemal, how would you price the boots of swiftness that had its dex bonus increased to +12?
1,660,000 gp?


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## Rino (May 24, 2007)

here is my concept character

[sblock=guardinal]
26FIGTER/14AVORAL GAURDINAL

str  	16	+4	+5	+3	+10	=40 +15
dex  	16	+12	+5	+5	+12	=50 +20
con 	14	+10	+5	+1	+10 	=40 +15
int   	12	+2	+5	  	+6 	=25 +7
wis  	10	+4	+5	+1	+6 	=26 +8
cha  	10	+6	+5	  	+6 	=27 +8

HP: 7d8+26d10+525: 764 
AC: 10+20+16+10+8= 64
touch: 40 flatfooded: -
speed:  70 ft., fly 120 ft. (perfect)

BAB: +30/+25/+20/+15 
grapple: +45
i

adamantine +5 briljant energy evil outsider bane scimitar
+54/+49/+44/+39 1d6+25 15-20/x2
(vs evil outsiders +56/+54/+46/+41 1d6+2d6+15 15-20/x2)

2 weapon
+52/+52/+47/+47/+42/+42/+37/+37 1d6+25 15-20/x2
(vs evil outsiders +54/+49/+44/+39 1d6+2d6+15 15-20/x2)

2 wings 
each +45/+40/+35/+30 2d8+14 

2claws 
each +45/+40/+35/+30 2d6+14 

saves:
fort 	+12	+5	+15	+10	+2	= +44
ref  	+6	+5	+20	+10	+2	= +43
will 	+6	+5	+8	+10	+2	= +31

skills:
Diplomacy 31+8 =39
handle animal 43+8 =51
hide 31+20=51
move silent 31+20=51
sense motive 31+8=39
listen 31+8=39
spot 31+8=39
concentration 31+15=46
knowledge (planes) 31+7=38
knowledge (local) 31+7=38
knowledge (arcana) 31+7=38
knowledge (religion) 31+7=38


feats:
weapon focus: scimitar
power attack
cleave
two-weapon fighting
imp. 2 weapon fighting
greater 2 weapon fighting
weapon spec: scimitar
greater weapon focus: scimitar
greater weapon spec: scimitar
improved critical 
improved sunder
combat brute
quick draw
combat expertise
great cleave
improved flight
oversized 2 weapon fighting
flyby attack
+2

epic feats:
perfect 2 weapon fighting
epic speed
overwhelming critical
devastating critial (fort DC 36)
great health

+8 racial bonus on Spot checks,
darkvision 
low-light vision 
+8 natural armor,
natural weapons (2 wings, 2d8; 2 claws, 2d6),
spell resistance 36
damage reduction 10/evil or silver,
immunity to electricity 
+4 bonus on saves against poison
immunity to petrification
speak with animals
lay on hands 764 HP
resistance to cold 10 and sonic 10
fear aura DC 22

inteligent item
- uncanny dodge as lvl 5 bbn
- evasion
- wielder does not breathe
- heal 1/day


A avoral guardinal’s list of spell-like abilities:
At will—
detect magic
dimension door
dispel magic
gust of wind
hold person
light
magic circle against evil (self only)
magic missile,
see invisibility
3/day- true seeing
3/day-lightning bolt. Caster level 8th.[/sblock]


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## Shayuri (May 24, 2007)

Hmm. Jemal, what would the ECL adjustment for a dragon be? I'm talking silver or gold...probably Old"ish" in age category...maybe even Ancient.

I know I already have one...but I do love me dragons.


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## Jemal (May 24, 2007)

[sblock=Shayuri] -As is evidenced by your pic.  Well, I've always thought that the dragon LA was too high.  As for a special thing... I know what I WANT b/c I LOVE Dragon PC's (Especially Silver's)..... It may seem a bit overpowered, but how about 40HD straight dragon no LA?
That'd be a Great Silver Wyrm exactly, if memory serves..

Just for the record, I'd prefer the dragon to the Nymph, just for coolness factor, but the 100AC Nymph WOULD have a good advantage.
[/sblock]

Rino - Looks good so far.  I'll go over numbers later, for now I just have one question - Guardinals can attack with their wings?

AVALON - Hmm, that number works for me.

Vertex - Lolth touched is OK, all those things you mentioned are ok with the exception that you CAN'T try stacking that SR vest on multiple slots or anything, k?
Also, the monk's belt is ok with monk levels, it just increases some of your monk abilities (As listed in the item description)

Void - My problem with the paladin of slaughter is a couple of it's abilities, especially deadly touch.
I wouldn't give voidmind for a +1, probably not even a +2.
The warbeast lycanthrope thing is ok, though.  Just keep in mind the LA and HD are counted to your 40ECL normally.

BTW.. Three-digit strength = Awesome.  There's gonna be a couple guys in the tourny that'll wanna arm wrestle you.


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## Shayuri (May 24, 2007)

[sblock=ooc]Wow. Well, I was gonna post my Warforged Dreadnought sheet. It's pretty fracking nasty, with DR 31/-, Fast Healing 9, more hit points than you can shake a stick at, and immune to practically everything. But a Great Wyrm? How can I pass that up?  I'd be worried about power level too...but then I look at that dude with 100 Str, and my worry sort of...withers away.  I'll post some sheets shortly. Oh...and I'm assuming that said Great Wyrm will, for whatever reason, lack it's normal casting abilities. Will it retain any spellcasting at all?[/sblock]


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## Jemal (May 24, 2007)

[sblock=shayuri]Ah yes, forgot to address that.  It's effective Sorc level will be caster level 9th.  This is part of the reason I'm allowing it at Great Wyrm... IT looses a lot of punch.

Also, if you want, a Variant Silver from my campaign setting (Alseria, where my other Epic game is set) can choose Druid spells instead of Cleric spells (Which normal silvers/Golds can choose for their sorc spell slots).  It's still only up to 4th lvl spells, but it's something a bit different.[/sblock]


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## Voidrazor (May 24, 2007)

Jemal - would it be possible to take a subset of the voidmind template bonuses get it at +1 LA?  If so, how does dropping the tentacle entirely, as well as the cone of slime, DR, 2 of the +4 Con, and the Alertness and Great Fortitude feats sound?


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## Darimaus (May 24, 2007)

Ok, I don't have my books here, and I won't for another few days, but I can give you a rundown on what I'm using just to give you a basic idea.

Underfoot Fighting (I'm not sure if this is what its called exactly, but Its close enough to the real thing to find if you've got access to Races of the Wild)

This feat allows for a small or smaller creature to move into an opponent's space without invurring an attack of opportunity (since tiny and smaller creatures have a reach of 2.5 feat and have to attack from the same square)

Confound the Big Folk (Tactical Feat, also from Races of the Wild)

This feat does sevral things. First off, if I start a round in my opponent's square, he is considered flatfooted towards me. Second, while I'm in an opponent's square, I gain a +4 cover bonus to my AC, as well as a 50% chance that anyone other than the person whos square I'm occupyig attacks me, they hit the other person in the square instead. Thirdly, I can make a trip attack with my Dex or Strength, and my opponent loses size modifiers to his opposed check.

Prehensile Tail (Feat, Out of savage Species)

This feat makes a tail able to function as a third hand, allowing to use items, wield weapons, ect. It also qualifies a character for the multiweapon fighting feats.

Arms of the Naga (Item, out of Savage Species)

This item is essentially a worn pair of arms with humanlike hands attached allowing a creature to use items they normally could not in them, and carry additional gear. It does not allow for any "additional" attacks, but I'm pretty sure if weapons are put in them you can use your normal attacks through them (somebody please correct me if I am wrong)

Gloves of Man (Item, Out of Savage Species)

These gloves can be worn in order to give creatures lacking humanoid hands the ability to use gear they normally could not (such as making a tentacle capable of wielding a weapon)


I'll post the exact wording once I'm up and running again. Also, if you want a brief overvue of my character, its going to be 16 Rogue, 2 Fighter, 1 Monk, and 1 Scout, + 2 HD and 3 LA from Psuedodragon and + 15 LA from Paragon.


----------



## Brother Allard (May 24, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> Brother_A - No on the blindsight



Sorry to be so long in getting back to this - I was out of town and had much more limited internet access than I had anticipated.

In any case, you'd suggested in an earlier post that the acceptability of the blind-sighted ability would depend on its cost.  If 30k is too low, would a higher pricetag make the item acceptable?


			
				Jemal said:
			
		

> brother_a - The amulet costs 3X what a normal magic weapon would cost, so it would be same at Epic (AN EPIC +10 would thus cost 3 Million gp, etc.)



A normal +10 weapon would be 2mil.  So a +10 amulet of mighty fists would be 6mil, not 3.  Right?  Or am I confused?


----------



## Brother Allard (May 24, 2007)

*Grugg*
[SBLOCK]Chaotic Neutral Feral Half-Ogre Barbarian (bear totem) 5 / Fighter 2 / Bear Warrior 10 / Warshaper 3 / Frenzied Berserker 10 / War Hulk 10


```
Str 72 	+31 	base 15 (cost 8) + 2 race + 4 template + 5 inherent + 10 level + 12 enhancement + 20 war hulk
Dex 20	+5	base 13 (cost 5) - 2 race - 2 template + 5 inherent + 6 enhancement
Con 34	+12	base 13 (cost 5) + 2 race + 2 template + 5 inherent + 12 enhancement
Int 14	+2	base 15 (cost 8) - 2 race - 4 template + 5 inherent
Wis 18	+4	base 11 (cost 3) + 2 template + 5 inherent
Cha 16	+3	base 13 (cost 5) - 2 race + 5 inherent
```

Age 24
Height 8'4"
Weight 530 lbs

Description: Big, dirty, doesn't smell too good.

HP 	842 (12+(34*9=306)+(3*6=18)+(2*7=14)+(40*12=480)+12)
Fast Healing 5
AC 	44 (10 base + 5 dex + 13 armor + 11 natural armor + 5 deflection)
DR 	15/-
Energy Resistance 30 (all types)
Init 	+5 (+5 Dex)
Move 	80 ft / x4, fly 120 ft (good)

Fortitude 49 (17 base + 10 epic + 12 con + 2 feat + 8 resistance)
Reflex 28 (5 base + 10 epic + 5 dex + 8 resistance)
Will 27 (5 base + 10 epic + 4 wis + 8 resistance)

Attack Bonus +28 (19 BAB + 10 EAB - 1 size)
Melee Attack +59 (19 BAB + 10 EAB + 31 str - 1 size)
Ranged Attack +33 (19 BAB + 10 EAB + 5 dex - 1 size)

Melee: +6 keen cold iron greataxe +65/+60/+55/+50 (3d6+55, 19-20/x3) or two +6 claws +66 (2d6+67, 20/x2)
Ranged: rock +60/+55/+50/+45 (2d8+31, 20/x2, 50ft.)


```
1	barbarian 1   	power attack, bonus: Toughness
2	barbarian 2	bonus: Improved Grapple
3	barbarian 3	improved bull rush, bonus: Great Fortitude
4	barbarian 4 	
5	barbarian 5
6	fighter 1	improved sunder, bonus: shock trooper
7	fighter 2	bonus: combat brute
8	bear warrior 1 
9	bear warrior 2	destructive rage	
10	bear warrior 3
11	bear warrior 4
12	bear warrior 5	intimidating rage	
13	bear warrior 6
14	bear warrior 7
15	bear warrior 8	cleave		 
16	bear warrior 9
17	bear warrior 10
18	warshaper 1	extra rage
19	warshaper 2
20	warshaper 3
21	frenzied berserker 1	extra rage, bonus: diehard
22	frenzied berserker 2
23	frenzied berserker 3	
24	frenzied berserker 4	terrifying rage
25	frenzied berserker 5
26	frenzied berserker 6
27	frenzied berserker 7	damage reduction
28	frenzied berserker 8	
29	frenzied berserker 9	
30 	frenzied berserker 10 	damage reduction
31	war hulk 1
32	war hulk 2
33	war hulk 3 	damage reduction
34	war hulk 4
35	war hulk 5
36	war hulk 6 	damage reduction
37	war hulk 7
38	war hulk 8	bonus: Toughness
39	war hulk 9	damage reduction, bonus: Toughness
40	war hulk 10	bonus: Toughness
```


Skills:
 * balance +25 (0 ranks + 5 dex + 20 competence)
 * climb +85 (34 ranks + 31 str + 20 competence)
 * jump +94 (43 ranks + 31 str + 20 competence)
 * intimidate +76 (43 ranks + 3 cha + 30 competence)
 * swim +53 (22 ranks + 31 str)
 * tumble +25 (0 ranks + 5 dex + 20 competence)

Class Abilities:
Barbarian:
 * +4 on grapple checks while raging
 * rage 6/day

Bear Warrior:
 * scent
 * bear form (dire): +20 str, +2 dex, +8 con (+160 hp), space/reach 10'/5', +7 natural armor, attacks: 2 claws (2d4), bite -5 (2d8), special attack: improved grab

Frenzied Berserker:
 * supreme cleave: 5' step between attacks when using cleave
 * deathless frenzy
 * supreme power attack: +2 to damage for every -1 to hit
 * inspire frenzy
 * greater frenzy: 5/day, +10 str, 1 extra attack at highest bonus, -4 to AC, 2 pts nonlethal damage each round
 * tireless frenzy

Warshaper:
 * morphic immunities: immune to stunning and critical hits when in bear form
 * morphic weapons: can grow natural weapons as a move action, can improve dire bear attacks to 2 claws (2d6) and bite (4d6)
 * morphic body: +4 str & con when in bear form
 * morphic reach: can stretch limbs to give an extra 5' of reach

War Hulk:
 * no time to think: considered to have 0 ranks in all int-, wis-, and cha-based skills
 * massive swing: as standard action, one attack with melee weapon vs all defenders threatened
 * mighty rock throwing: throw 50 lb rocks for 2d8, using str instead of dex with range increment of 50'
 * massive sweeping boulder: affect four adjacent squares with thrown rocks, provided each square is farther away.  one attack roll applied to all affected targets.

Racial Abilities:
Half-ogre:
 * space/reach 10'/10'
 * +4 natural armor
 * darkvision 60'

Template Abilities:
Feral:
 * land speed +10 
 * +6 natural armor
 * 2 claw attacks (2d6)
 * special attacks: improved grab, pounce, rake, rend
 * darkvision 120'
 * fast healing 5

Abilities from items:
 * evasion
 * haste 3/day (20 round duration)
 * energy resistance 30 (all types)
 * treated as two size categories larger for combat-related opposed checks
 * immune to mind-affecting spells and abilities
 * bite attack (when in bear form only) as one size category larger (after warshaper is 4d8)
 * does not need to eat or drink
 * fly 60 ft. (good)
 * natural weapons are treated as adamantine for overcoming DR

Equipment: [14,000,000 - 895,010 yet to spend]
 * tomes +5 (x6) [read] 825,000 gp
 * bracers of relentless might 4,438,000 gp
 * +8 wild (+4 in abilities) mithral breastplate of greater energy resistance (30, all 5 types) (2,254,350 + (62,000 x 5)) 2,564,350 gp
 * +6 amulet of mighty fists / +5 natural armor (2,160,000 + (50,000 x 1.5)) 2,235,000 gp
 * +6 keen cold iron greataxe 982,640 [34,410]
 * ring of mental fortitude (slotless, worn in ear) (110,000 x 2) 220,000 gp
 * cloak of epic resistance +8 640,000 gp
 * nose ring of intimidation +30 (fills mask spot) 90,000 gp
 * jaws of the dragon 40,000 gp
 * ring of protection +5 (slotless, worn in ear) (50,000 x 2) 100,000 gp
 * wings of flying (slotless, worn as large steel piercing between shoulder blades) (54,000 x 2) 102,000 gp (because a raging bear with batwings is the most awesome thing ever)
 * ring of sustenance 2,500 gp
 * bag of holding, type iv (full of 50 lb rocks [30]) 10,000 gp
 * anklets of swiftness 256,000 gp
 * ring of djinni calling 125,000 gp
 * gem of seeing 75,000 gp
 * helm of teleportation 73,500 gp
 * ring of adamantine touch (slotless, worn in ear) (120,000 x 2) 240,000 gp
 * ring of growth (slotless, worn in ear) (18,000 x 2) 36,000 gp
 * antimagic torc (slotless, worn as piercing) (25,000 x 2) 50,000 gp[/SBLOCK]

Spoilered for space considerations only - feel free to look.

As a point of interest: frenzied, enlarged, and in bear form, he has a strength of 114.


----------



## Solarious (May 25, 2007)

Uugghhh. Number crunching at this level can be such a nightmare, to speak nothing of actual optimization. Perhaps one of the reasons I'm going with Paragon. If I can't do Paragon, I'll steal a fallen character concept and become a Shifter... probably a Ascetic, working off the material you have already posted in your previous game's OoC, Jemal.

Any word on Void Incarnate yet? If not permitted, I might pick up Fighter and combine with Daring Warrior for some extra feats. Or something. I'm also dipping into Ninja for Wis-to-AC.

Which reminds me I won't have anything up until the weekend. I need to actually go out and pick up the books. 

PS. What books are we talking about when it comes to Shapes for a Wildshaper?


----------



## Jemal (May 25, 2007)

Voidrazor - I don't know, what EXACTLY Are you wanting?  Just type up a template and I'll approve/dissaprove it.

Darimaus - Hmm, last time I heard about that character, it was a Halfling with permanent Reduce Person..
All the stuff you listed is OK, but I won't allow Arms of the Naga to let  you make weapon attacks via multiweapon fighting, if that's what you're planning.  
An Item (Regardless of cost) that gives you an extra TWO sets of full attacks @ Epic seems wrong to me.

Solarious - I'm gonna say no to the Void Incarnate this time through.  Last time I had one, they were a bit of a pain.
As for allowed books for shapes, if it's not in the Core, ask, b/c the only creatures your character is assumed to know about (regardless of Level) are the 'basic' core beasts.  And just having a high Knowledge check doesn't mean you don't have to ask for others, b/c some of them may not EXIST in this universe. (Like, for instance, ANYTHING out of Serpent Kingdom)

And btw, there's actually a few of us who enjoy Epic level number crunching/Optimization.  I find it to be almost as fun as the gaming itself.

Brother_Allard - Yeah, I forgot to X2 for weapon cost as opposed to armour/stat stuff.
And the problem is that for Blind SIGHT, at this level it's either going to be a drop in the bucket or stupidly expensive, I can't think of a good cost for it...  Gimme a day or two to ponder.


*Speaking of Pondering - Have I missed any other questions or told people I'd "get back to them" over the last week or 2, that I may have forgotten?


----------



## Rino (May 25, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> Rino - Looks good so far.  I'll go over numbers later, for now I just have one question - Guardinals can attack with their wings?



The avoral guardinal has two different
types of natural attacks. On the ground, it has
two primary wing attacks, each dealing 1d8 points of
damage. In the air, it has two primary claw attacks,
each dealing 1d6 points of damage. It can’t make
claw and wing attacks in the same round.

so yes


----------



## Avalon® (May 25, 2007)

[sblock=Tchk'kla'khan]Tchk’kla’khan, the Deus Pugna, 
Male Saint Thri-keen LA 1/ Racial 2/ Scout 2/ Ranger 2/ Fighter 2/ Dervish 23/ Highland Stalker 2/ Tempest 4
Chaotic Good

Str 30 -- (4 Pts) +2 racial +4 inherent +12 enhancement
Dex 46 -- (10 pts) +9 level +4 racial +5 inherent +12 enhancement
Con 32 -- (6 pts) +4 inherent +12 enhancement +2 Saint
Int 13 -- (8 pts) -2 racial
Wis 22 -- (2pts)+2 racial +2 Saint +8
Cha 12 -- (4 pts)-4 racial +4 Saint

Hit Points 656 (8d8+29d10+407)
AC 60 (10 base +5 armor +18 Dex +6 Insight +5 Deflection +8 Natural Armor +2 Tempest +6 Dervish), Touch 47, Flat 42
Init +24 
BAB +28, Grap +38
Speed 160 ft, 150 ft fly (good maneuverability) (base 40 ft, load 0/532, light armor)
Fort +32, Ref +42, Will +24

+50/+45/+40/+35 Melee, +6 Vicious Large Starmetal Scimitar of Wrathful Healing, 2d4+16+2d6 (1d6 to wielder), 15-20/x2
+50/+45/+40/+35 Melee, +6 Vicious Large Starmetal Scimitar of Wrathful Healing, 2d4+16+2d6 (1d6 to wielder), 15-20/x2
+50/+45/+40/+35 Melee, +6 Vicious Large Starmetal Scimitar of Wrathful Healing, 2d4+16+2d6 (1d6 to wielder), 15-20/x2
+50/+45/+40/+35 Melee, +6 Vicious Large Starmetal Scimitar of Wrathful Healing, 2d4+16+2d6 (1d6 to wielder), 15-20/x2

[sblock=In a dervish dance (21 rounds)]
+62/+57/+52/+47 Melee, +6 Vicious Large Starmetal Scimitar of Wrathful Healing, 2d4+28+2d6 (1d6 to wielder), 15-20/x2
+62/+57/+52/+47 Melee, +6 Vicious Large Starmetal Scimitar of Wrathful Healing, 2d4+28+2d6 (1d6 to wielder), 15-20/x2
+62/+57/+52/+47 Melee, +6 Vicious Large Starmetal Scimitar of Wrathful Healing, 2d4+28+2d6 (1d6 to wielder), 15-20/x2
+62/+57/+52/+47 Melee, +6 Vicious Large Starmetal Scimitar of Wrathful Healing, 2d4+28+2d6 (1d6 to wielder), 15-20/x2
[/sblock]


Medium, 6'11" tall, 287 lb, 10 yrs old 

Speaks Common, Thri-keen, Elven

+44 Balance (22 +4 Synergy)
+100 Jump (4 +4 Synergy)
+44 Perform (Dance) (40+3cc)
+14 Survival (8)
+61 Tumble (43)

+46 Listen (40) 
+21 Spot (15)

Skill Tricks: 
-Back On Your Feet (stand up prone as an immediate action without provoking attacks of opportunity)


Feats
-Deflect Arrows (bonus)
-Expeditious Dodge
-Track (bonus)
-Multiweapon Fighting (bonus)
-Mobility
-Weapon Focus (scimitar)
-Combat Expertise
-Improved Multiweapon Fighting
-Improved Critical (scimitar)
-Spring Attack (bonus)
-Elusive Target
-Greater Multiweapon Fighting
-Close Quarters Combat
-Weapon Finesse
-Touch of Golden Ice
-Nimbus of Light
-Nemesis (Undead)

Epic Feats
-Perfect Multiweapon Fighting
-Blinding Speed (15 rounds)

[sblock=Thri-keen Traits]
-+2 Str, +4 Dex, -2 Int, +2 Wis, -4 Cha
-Monstrous Humanoid
-Medium Size
-Base Land Speed 40 ft.
-Darkvision 60 ft.
-Immunity to Sleep Effects
-+3 Natural Armor
-Multiple Limbs: Thri-keen have four arms and thus can take the Multiweapon Fighting feat instead of the Two-weapon fighting feat. They can also take the multiattack feat.
-Natural Attacks: They have 4 claws and a bite attack. The claw does 1d4 damage and the bite is a secondary attack that also does 1d4 damage.. If he is wielding weapons, he can make a bite or claw attack as a secondary attack.
-Poison: Bite, Initial damage 1d6 dex, secondary damage paralysis. DC 11+Con mod. A thri-keen only produces enough poison for only one poisonous bite per day.
-Leap: +30 racial bonus to jump checks
-Weapon Familiarity: Treat gythkas and chatkas as martial weapons instead of exotic weapons.
-Spell-like Abilities: 3/day – Know Direction. 1/day – Displacement. Caster Level equal to ½ HD. Saves are Cha – based.
-Racial Hit Dice: Begins with two levels of Monstrous Humanoid, which provides 2d8 HD, BAB of +2,  Fort +0, Ref +3, Will +3
-Racial Skills: A thri-keen's monstrous humanoid levels grant him skill points equal to 5x (2+Int). Class skills are Balance, Climb, Hide, Jump, Listen and Spot.
+4 racial bonus to hide checks in sandy or arid settings.
-Racial Feats: Deflect Arrows as bonus feat. In addition his monstrous levels give him one feat.
-Automatic Languages: Common, Thri-keen. Bonus Languages: Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, Halfling.
-Favored Class: Ranger
-LA +2[/sblock]

[sblock=Saint Traits]
-Outsider (Native Subtype)
-Wis to AC (Insight Bonus)
-Holy Power
-Holy Touch
-Spell-like Abilities: At Will – Guidance, Resistance, Virtue, Bless CL: 36
-DR 10/evil
-Fast Healing 10
-Immune to acid, cold, electricity, and petrification attacks
-Keen Vision
-Protective Aura
-Resistance to fire 10
-+4 racial bonus on Fort saves against poison
-Tongues
-+2 Con, +2 Wis, +4 Cha
-LA +2[/sblock]

Scout Abilities
- Skirmish (+1d6)
- Trapfinding
-Battle Fortitude +1
-Uncanny Dodge

Ranger Abilities
-Favored Enemy (Undead)
-Track
-Wild Empathy
-Combat Style (Multiweapon Fighting)

Fighter Abilities
-Bonus Feat x2

Dervish Abilities
-Dervish Dance 12/day
-Movement Mastery
-Slashing Blades
-Fast Movement +40 ft.
-Spring Attack (bonus)
-Dance of Death
-Improved Reaction
-Elaborate Parry
-Tireless Dance
-A Thousand Cuts 1/day
-Bonus Feat (Epic x3)

Highland Stalker Abilities
-Mountain Stride
-Skirmish (+1d6)

Tempest
-Tempest Defense +2
-Ambidexterity (+0)
-Multi-weapon Versatility

[sblock=Equipment]
Boots of Swiftness (Dex +12) 1,660,000 gp
+6 Vicious Wrathful Healing Starmetal Scimitar 2,005,315 gp
+6 Vicious Wrathful Healing Starmetal Scimitar 2,005,315 gp
+6 Vicious Wrathful Healing Starmetal Scimitar 2,005,315 gp
+6 Vicious Wrathful Healing Starmetal Scimitar 2,005,315 gp
Ring of Freedom of Movement 40,000 gp
Ring of Evasion (+5 Deflection) 75,000 gp
Manual of Gainful Exercise +4 110,000 gp
Manual of Bodily Health +4 110,000 gp
Manual of Quickness of Action +5 137,500 gp
Belt of Str +12(w/ belt of battle) 1,458,000 gp
Bracers of Health +12(w/ Deathstrike Bracers, Strongarm Bracers, and Bracers of Armor +5) 1,481,500 gp
Periapt of Epic Wisdom +8 (w/ Amulet of Natural Armor +5) 690,000 gp
Gem of Seeing 75,000 gp
Ring of Solar Wings 118,000 gp

23,740 gp[/sblock]
[/sblock]


----------



## Autumn (May 25, 2007)

Okay, I'm back from my trip and getting a character statted up for this is now my priority. Should hopefully have something for you to look at by the end of tomorrow.


----------



## Shayuri (May 25, 2007)

Heya Jemal, what do you think about dragon PrC's from Draconomicon? I was looking at the Hidecarved and the Dragon Ascendent in particular. A Very Old silver with 31HD could still fit in 9 levels of Ascendent, which might be a lot more survivable than just being a 40HD Great Wyrm. Lemme know...


----------



## Darimaus (May 25, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> Darimaus - Hmm, last time I heard about that character, it was a Halfling with permanent Reduce Person..
> All the stuff you listed is OK, but I won't allow Arms of the Naga to let  you make weapon attacks via multiweapon fighting, if that's what you're planning.
> An Item (Regardless of cost) that gives you an extra TWO sets of full attacks @ Epic seems wrong to me.




You seem to have misunderstood. A psuedodragon isn't documented to have any hands (or in that case claw attacks). Because of that, it "can" be constued that even while using its tail as an arm it still doesn't make the prereques for having 3 hands. The arms of the naga would simply be used to make the prereques for the other two hands. Realistically though, if you think a dragon can use items with its claws, I don't even have a problem at all.

As for actual stats, constuction begins tonight.


----------



## Voidrazor (May 25, 2007)

'Lesser' Voidmind 
+4 improvement to Natural Armor
Spell Resistance of 10 + HD
Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat
+4 Racial bonus on Intimidate checks.
Str +4
Dex +2
Con +2
Int +2
Cha –2
Immunity to Acid, Mind-affecting Effects, Ability Damage, Ability Drain, & Energy Drain
The (DM controlled) Elder Brain can give the voidmind creature basic commands (no save or SR), such as “Come here,” “Go there,” “Fight,” and “Stand still.” It knows what the voidmind is experiencing but doesn't receive direct sense impressions.

Please let me know what else, if anything, would need to be dropped to fit the template into a +1 LA. Also, could my cohort take the Fiend of Possession PrC from the back of the Fiend Folio so long as it doesn't get the control creature ability?


----------



## moritheil (May 26, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> I want to see character sheets ASAP, btw.  Any of you who've gamed with me before know I'm impatient to get moving on stuff, and this is no exception.




I really hate to do this, but due to RL taking up more time than I anticipated, I'm probably going to have to bow out.  I can barely keep my own campaign afloat, and that obligation comes first.  On the plus side, it looks like you have no shortage of players.  Have an awesome campaign!


----------



## Solarious (May 26, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> Solarious - I'm gonna say no to the Void Incarnate this time through.  Last time I had one, they were a bit of a pain.
> As for allowed books for shapes, if it's not in the Core, ask, b/c the only creatures your character is assumed to know about (regardless of Level) are the 'basic' core beasts.  And just having a high Knowledge check doesn't mean you don't have to ask for others, b/c some of them may not EXIST in this universe. (Like, for instance, ANYTHING out of Serpent Kingdom)
> 
> And btw, there's actually a few of us who enjoy Epic level number crunching/Optimization.  I find it to be almost as fun as the gaming itself.



I know that number crunching can be a rewarding and exciting pastime... I should know, having statted up a number of monsters specificly to make characters suffer greatly (Dialexis, the First Among Astraloths and Korliac, of the Grey Flame are two of my babies  ). It's just that the sheer _amount_ of crunching... and seeing the talents of other players firsthand who clearly have more talent, knowledge, and experience at this kind of game is  daunting. I mean, there is making effective characters, and there is creating RAW overdeities at level 4.   The time limit doesn't help a great deal either. Being an Epic minnow in a sea of Epic whales is hard.  

Anyways, if I might ask, what happened the Void Incarnate last time you allowed them? I'm curious as to how they made your life difficult... they seem somewhat underpowered, frankly.


----------



## Darimaus (May 26, 2007)

BTW, heres another point I've been looking for but haven't found yet. Do you allow the switching of item slots/combining items at the appropriate costs? As well, do you allow things like skill boosting items, or are you altogether banning the Item Creation Chart?


----------



## Autumn (May 26, 2007)

Hmmm. Some time spent on my character is rapidly convincing me that Epic number crunching may not be my pastime of choice. 

 I can see where the appeal lies, but I fear that for me right now it's just feeling like a real grind. So I guess that means that I should also bow out. It's too bad, because this really looks like a fun game, but I just don't think that I'm suited for it. Or at least I'm not in the mood to be doing it at the moment, which is roughly the same thing.

 Have fun guys, I'll be reading along with interest!


----------



## Jemal (May 26, 2007)

Moritheil/Autumn - Sorry to hear that.  Have fun, and seeya later.

Darimaus - I don't think Pseudodragons can manipulate weaposn with their claws, but I had thought that's why you were using the "gloves of Man".

Voidrazor - Lesser Voidmind would be acceptable as a +2 LA, to get it to +1, you'd have to drop a couple things... I mean, the SR and Immunities alone are worth 1 LA, even with the drawbacks.  The +4 nat armour, bonus feat, and Stat mods are another 1 LA
Also be warned that there may be some... Imperial... er, I mean Illithid entanglements during the campaign.

No Fiend of Possession.

Shayuri -I'm rather partial to those, the Dragon Ascendant in particular (The Sea was a 40HD Silver Dragon With 12 lvls in Dragon Ascendant)

Solarius - Anything can be a pain depending on how it's used, but the Void Incarnate is just naturally painful to DM.  By lvl 10, they've got Improved Easion & Mettle(Fort/Will).  With a good Reflex save (And Dextrous fort/will), this makes them essentially immune to anything that allows a save.
Add that to their existing immunity to force effects, mind affects, and divinations, as well as their Freedom of Movement(Immunity to grapples) and Void Presence.  THEN, take into account that all of these powers are EXTRAORDINARY! 
Definitely NOT Underpowered.  I call them the "can't touch this" class.  Not too much on the offense, but with the sneak attack 1/round, just pump your rogue levels non-epic, Dual-wield Keen Kukri's, and get something that lets you sneak attack & Crit constructs/undead.
[sblock=rant]Worst I ever saw, though, was a guy who combined them with Kensai, and one other "secret ingredient".  The end result was that he could make a concentration Check (Very easy to pump) vs anything that allowed a save, and if he made it, nothing happened.
If he'd had more levels he would've added legendary dreadnought for the 'unstoppable' part, which then allows you to make a save (at +20) vs something that doesn't NORMALLY allow a save.[sblock]



> BTW, heres another point I've been looking for but haven't found yet. Do you allow the switching of item slots/combining items at the appropriate costs? As well, do you allow things like skill boosting items, or are you altogether banning the Item Creation Chart?



Yes I allow switching Item slots and combining items, though keep in mind the +50% cost.
As for the item creation chart, it's a no-go, except for Skill Boosters.  All skill boosters must either be in an appropriate slot, or cost extra (I consider Rings as appropriate for any skill booster).  Max +40 item, and after +20 they're considered epic (X10 cost).


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## Avalon® (May 26, 2007)

Jemal, can I use this item?

Ring of Solar Wings (118,000 gp) - Gain fly speed 150 ft. (good maneuverability). If it is removed while the wearer is in flight, the wearer floats to the ground as per the feather fall spell.


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## Darimaus (May 26, 2007)

Thanks Jemal, I think I have enough info to have my character made up before I go to sleep tonight. Btw, the reason why I asked about the arms was for an alternative, since they do accomplish the same thing as gloves of man.


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## Jemal (May 26, 2007)

Avalon - Where's that from, and what's it based off?

Darimaus - cool.  Go with the gloves, they shouldn't be too expensive to add onto whatever uber-magical gloves you were planning on.


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## Avalon® (May 26, 2007)

Book of Exalted Deeds p.115. It;s an actual item.


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## Vertexx69 (May 26, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> All skill boosters must either be in an appropriate slot, or cost extra (I consider Rings as appropriate for any skill booster).  Max +40 item, and after +20 they're considered epic (X10 cost).




Ouchie that means the +40 skill boost items cost 1.6 mil right?

What would be the cost of A greater invisibility ring? Standard one costing 20k. Maybe like 100-120k? I dont know if one already exists.


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## Solarious (May 27, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> Solarius - Anything can be a pain depending on how it's used, but the Void Incarnate is just naturally painful to DM.  By lvl 10, they've got Improved Easion & Mettle(Fort/Will).  With a good Reflex save (And Dextrous fort/will), this makes them essentially immune to anything that allows a save.
> Add that to their existing immunity to force effects, mind affects, and divinations, as well as their Freedom of Movement(Immunity to grapples) and Void Presence.  THEN, take into account that all of these powers are EXTRAORDINARY!
> Definitely NOT Underpowered.  I call them the "can't touch this" class.  Not too much on the offense, but with the sneak attack 1/round, just pump your rogue levels non-epic, Dual-wield Keen Kukri's, and get something that lets you sneak attack & Crit constructs/undead.
> [sblock=rant]Worst I ever saw, though, was a guy who combined them with Kensai, and one other "secret ingredient".  The end result was that he could make a concentration Check (Very easy to pump) vs anything that allowed a save, and if he made it, nothing happened.
> If he'd had more levels he would've added legendary dreadnought for the 'unstoppable' part, which then allows you to make a save (at +20) vs something that doesn't NORMALLY allow a save.[/sblock]



You sound like someone who allowed something that seemed perfectly reasonable, then it exploded into this horrific exploit that totaled everything you could brought into play and then some.  I can see where my character was shaping up to be something similar... I'll find something else to put levels into. Maybe the original Daring Warrior idea, or perhaps Swashbuckler for AC madness. We'll see.


----------



## Darimaus (May 27, 2007)

Alrighty, I still need to write up a personality/background, as well as post a word for word section on the outside sources things I used, however I'm pretty much done so heres my rough draft.

Caltrop the Odd 

[sblock]

Paragon Pseudodragon, Rogue 16, Fighter 2, Monk 1, Scout 1 

Str: 56 (13 Base + 15 Paragon + 5 Inherant + 20 Enhancement + 5 Level 
- 4 Racial + 2 Graft) 
Dex: 60 (14 Base + 15 Paragon + 5 Inherant + 20 Enhancement + 4 
Racial + 2 Graft) 
Con: 42 (14 Base + 15 Paragon + 5 Inherant + 6 Enhancement + 2 Graft) 
Int: 40 (14 Base + 15 Paragon + 5 Inherant + 6 Enhancement) 
Wis: 42 (12 Base + 15 Paragon + 5 Inherant + 6 Enhancement + 2 Racial) 
Cha: 42 (14 Base + 15 Paragon + 5 Inherant + 6 Enhancement) 

BAB: +17 
Fort: 41 (11 Base + 15 Con + 5 Resistance + 10 Paragon) 
Ref: 48 (13 Base + 18 Dex + 5 Resistance + 2 Feat + 10 Paragon) 
Will: 37 (8 Base + 16 Wis + 5 Resistance + 10 Paragon) 
AC: 100 (10 Base + 12 Luck + 12 Insight + 25 Dex + 15 Wis + 10 Natural Armor + 8 Armor + 5 Deflection + 2 Size + 1 Monk) 
Speed: 45 ft/ 180 ft fly (good)
HP: 804 (2d12 + 18d8 + 2d10 + 616) *Max Hit points due to paragon 
Initiative: +29
Languages: All in PhB (except Druid)

Feats: Underfoot Fighting, Giantsbane, Confound the Big Folk, Multi Weapon Fighting, Improved Multiweapon Weapon Fighting, Greater Multiweapon Fighting, Run, Prehensile Tail, Dodge, Stunning Fist, Swift Ambusher (Scout and Rogue levels stack for the purpose of Skirmish), Savvy Rogue (Improves the effects of rogue special abilities. Ones in question are (defensive roll) use defensive roll 3 times/day, (improved evasion) gain +2 on reflex saves, (crippling strike) the extra str damage from your sneak attacks affect creatures who are immune to crits.)

Epic Feats: Epic Dodge 

Special Abilities: Trapfinding, Trapsense +5, Improved Evasion, Defensive Roll, Crippling Strike, Sneak Attack 8d6, Improved Unarmed Strike, Flurry of Blows, Skirmish +5d6, +4 AC

Skills: (459)
Hide: 84 (25 Ranks + 25 Dex + 30 Competence + 4 Racial)
Move Silently: 80 (25 Ranks + 25 Dex + 30 Competence)
Spot: 51 (25 Ranks + 16 Wis + 10 Competence)
Listen: 51 (25 Ranks + 16 Wis + 10 Competence)
Search: 50 (25 Ranks + 15 Int + 10 Competence)
Bluff: 51 (25 Ranks + 16 Cha + 10 Competence)
Sense Motive: 51 (25 Ranks + 16 Wis + 10 Competence)
Diplomacy: 51 (25 Ranks + 16 Wis + 10 Competence)
Gather Information: 51 (25 Ranks + 16 Cha + 10 Competence)
Survival: 51 (25 Ranks + 16 Wis + 10 Competence)
Tumble: 74 (25 Ranks + 25 Dex + 20 Competence + 4 Racial)
Knowledge Arcana: 50 (25 Ranks + 15 Int + 10 Competence)
Knowledge Religion: 50 (25 Ranks + 15 Int + 10 Competence)
Knowledge (Everything Else in PHB): 26 (1 Ranks + 15 Int + 10 Competence)
Use Magic Device: 51 (25 Ranks + 16 Cha + 10 Competence)
Open Lock: 60 (25 Ranks + 25 Dex + 10 Competence)
Handle Animal: 27 (1 Ranks + 16 Cha + 10 Competence)
Disable Device: 26 (1 Ranks + 15 Int + 10 Competence)
Decipher Script: 26 (1 Ranks + 15 Int + 10 Competence)
Climb: 92 (25 Ranks + 23 Str + 40 Competence + 4 Racial)
Escape Artist: 74 (25 Ranks + 25 Dex + 20 Competence + 4 Racial)
Speak Language: 10 Languages (20 Crossclass Ranks)
Spellcraft: 37 (25 Crossclass Ranks + 15 Int + 10 Competence)
Balance: 49 (0 Ranks + 25 Dex + 20 Competence + 4 Racial)
Jump: 43 (0 Ranks + 23 Str + 20 Competence)

Attacks: Melee: +65, Ranged +67

Full Attack (Quarterstaff of Alacrity/Souldrinker, and Flurry of Blows): +66 (5 attacks, Quarterstaff), +62 (Souldrinker), +61 (2 attacks, Quarterstaff), +57 (Souldrinker), +56 (2 attacks, Quarterstaff), +52 (Souldrinker), +47 (SoulDrinker)

Damage: Quarterstaff = 1d3+36
Souldrinker: 1d6+48

Equipment: 
Boots of Swiftness/Climbing +40: 1,984,000
Hand of Glory/Natural Armor +5/Wisdom +6/Constitution/Adaption/Golembane/Protection: +6: 224,250
Ring of Deflection/Sustenance/Invisibility: 83,750
Ring of Freedom of Movement/Shrinking: 45,400
All Tomes +5: 825,000
Monk's Belt/Strength +20: 4,019,500
Vest of Resistance +5: 25,000
Cloak of Charisma +6/Great Stealth/Aracnia/Displacement: 369,000
Portable Hole: 20,000
Heward's Handy Haversack: 2,000
Quarterstaff, +5, Marrowcrushing, Disruption: (both sides enhanced): 400,600
Quarterstaff of Alacrity (ELH): 462,600
Souldrinker (ELH): 478,335
+5, Speed Adamantine Kama: 128,000
Bracers of Armor +8: 64,000
Gloves of Man/Storing/Dex +20: 4,093,000
Headband of Intelligence: 36,000
Luckstone: 20,000
Ring of Universal Energy Resistance Major: 216,000
10 Immovable Rods: 50,000
10 Sovereign Glue: 24,000
10 Universal Solvent: 500
Flexible Spine: 91,000 (Book of Abberations, Graft, Gives +4 initiative, balance, escape artist, tumble)
Silthilar Bones: 110,000 (Book of Abberations, Graft, Gives +2 to Con)
Silthilar Tendons: 110,000 (Book of Abberations, Graft, Gives +2 to Dex)
Silthilar Muscles: 110,000 (Book of Abberations, Graft, Gives +2 to Str)

8,065

[/sblock]


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## Vertexx69 (May 27, 2007)

Wow and I thought voidmind was broken, paragon should be worth +25-30 LA  easy  :\
+15 is like giving away creature of legend for +1
I also didnt know we were allowed to make custom items like +20 stats things, when he said no item creation.


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## Shayuri (May 27, 2007)

Given that the epic psuedonatural template is +10 CR (and thus anywhere from +15 to +20 EL) and is far inferior...

On the other hand, I don't have much room to complain.


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## Avalon® (May 27, 2007)

Jemal, so is the ring allowed?


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## Darimaus (May 28, 2007)

Vertexx69 said:
			
		

> Wow and I thought voidmind was broken, paragon should be worth +25-30 LA  easy  :\
> +15 is like giving away creature of legend for +1
> I also didnt know we were allowed to make custom items like +20 stats things, when he said no item creation.




If you'll recall, I did inquire on such things before. It may be just an assumption, but I'm pretty sure stat boosters fall into the same catagory as skill boosters. If such isn't true, well that just means I have a few more million GP to spend on more important things.

BTW: To all who consider paragon to be broken by looking at what I concocted, I assure you that my non-paragon equivilant is in no way inferior to this design, and that I chose paragon as a flavor thing. And realistically, I've not surpassed some of the other builds posted here. I don't think I deserve the Hangman's noose quite yet.


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## Vertexx69 (May 28, 2007)

No specific jibe against ya, just a general statement about the template. As I had been reading it in the ELH.

However do you have 3 quarterstaves or did you just not pay the +50% extra to stack abilities? Just the +5 bonecrushing(+2), disrupting(+2), defending(+1) (both endsX2) quarterstaff = +20 weapon which costs 8million gold. And both alacrity and souldrinker are Epic lvl specific items, so to add anything extra to one of them incurs epic lvl prices.


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## Darimaus (May 28, 2007)

Vertexx69 said:
			
		

> No specific jibe against ya, just a general statement about the template. As I had been reading it in the ELH.
> 
> However do you have 3 quarterstaves or did you just not pay the +50% extra to stack abilities? Just the +5 bonecrushing(+2), disrupting(+2), defending(+1) (both endsX2) quarterstaff = +20 weapon which costs 8million gold. And both alacrity and souldrinker are Epic lvl specific items, so to add anything extra to one of them incurs epic lvl prices.




Step one, I didn't enhance either of my premade items, I'm not sure what gave you that impression. Step two, the costs to enhance the two sides of a weapon are done seperatly, which means both ends are +10, non-epic enhancements.


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## Shayuri (May 28, 2007)

Darimaus said:
			
		

> If you'll recall, I did inquire on such things before. It may be just an assumption, but I'm pretty sure stat boosters fall into the same catagory as skill boosters. If such isn't true, well that just means I have a few more million GP to spend on more important things.
> 
> BTW: To all who consider paragon to be broken by looking at what I concocted, I assure you that my non-paragon equivilant is in no way inferior to this design, and that I chose paragon as a flavor thing. And realistically, I've not surpassed some of the other builds posted here. I don't think I deserve the Hangman's noose quite yet.




Hee...no one's faulting you, Dari. No worries.


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## Jemal (May 28, 2007)

Darimaus, a couple things...  
You have 2 Quarterstaffs and a Sword, and only 2 hands and a tail to wield them with... And since they all require two hands to wield (I didn't notice Exotic Pro: Bastard Sword on your sheet), that puts you 3 hands short, unless you're only wielding one at a time.

Plus, .since you're a size smaller, the damage on them will be less.  1d4 for the quarterstaff's for small size, and I believe 1d8 for the Bastard Sword.

OH, and I don't think I'll be allowing Darkstalker this time around.

Not too sure on grafts, I'll have to think about it.

Also, quarterstaff's are made of wood and thus can't be converted to adamantine.  You could use Darkwood or maybe Ironwood.

Vertex (And ALL)
 Stat boosters, skill boosters, Weapon/Armour/Nat.Armour Enhancements, Deflection Bonuses(AC) and Resistance Bonuses(saves) follow a specific, non-abusable pattern, and are thus not considered 'custom made' regardless of the Bonus.  The ELH Just doesn't continue listing them past a certain point b/c it would be redundant.  I DO, however, put a limit on such items... Weapon/Armour/Save bonuses can't be more than 3/4 your level (30 in this case) and stat/skill/Resistance bonuses can't be more than your level (40 in this case).  I thought I'd pointed this out before, but if I did or if anybody was wondering, there it is.

Avalon - Yeah, that ring's OK, I guess.  Nothing broken about it.

Shayuri - Don't knock Pseudonatural... Max HP, Double Speed, and Their SR may as well be SPELL IMMUNITY.  (HD X 5?  even if it were a +20 LA, at lvl 40 that's still 20 HD, which is SR 100....).  Plus they get bonus Tentacle attacks.. 1 + 1/4HD, each doing 1d8+STR damage.  Considering their +22 STR..  Paragon's still better overall(IMO), but not by much.
And Pseudonatural Paragon is just scarry.  
Just imagine, if you can, the Paragon Pseudonatural Half-Red Dragon Tarrasque.  CR: 47.  
that would be considered a tough boss fight for 6 of you guys at this level.  And it's perfectly legal by the rules.  ALL of those templates can be stacked. 

Hmm, I oughta stat that monster up and use him if any of youse ticks me off ...


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## Shayuri (May 28, 2007)

I wasn't knocking it, I was just pointing out a possible disparity in "pricing" the two templates.

Believe me, I wouldn't mind having either one, but the loss in HD would be...irksome.

*shrug*

Also, pdragons are Tiny, I thought...not Small. That's 2 size categories down.

SHOULDERDRAGONS! 

Nearly done with my dragon, btw. Should be postable today or tomorrow. Just doing inventory now.


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## Jemal (May 28, 2007)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> Also, pdragons are Tiny, I thought...not Small. That's 2 size categories down.
> 
> SHOULDERDRAGONS!



Right, Tiny.  Got it.


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## Darimaus (May 28, 2007)

Step one, I don't understand what you guys are getting caught up on. I NEVER stated I was to be wielding more than one quarterstaff at a time. I buy different weapons to use at different times. Why is that such an odd concept? I will use one quarterstaff and the sword at the same time, and if the situation changes, I will switch off the quarterstaffs. And yes, I don't have the exotic weapon proficiency, but I did factor in the -4 penalty for doing that in the stats.

I am annoyed that you won't let me use adamantine for the quarterstaff, after all it would just be a metal stick, I don't see how far of a stretch that is... but I'll switch it to Ironwood or whatever if you really want me to since it was a flavor thing as well. 

I did notice the damage thing, and it got changed on my own character sheet copy, but the change didn't make it over to this one. That will change as well.

Not having Darkstalker sucks, but I'll live.

Lastly, Bring That Monster On!!!!! I could use a challenge


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## Vertexx69 (May 28, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> Vertex (And ALL)
> Stat boosters, skill boosters, Weapon/Armour/Nat.Armour Enhancements, Deflection Bonuses(AC) and Resistance Bonuses(saves) follow a specific, non-abusable pattern, and are thus not considered 'custom made' regardless of the Bonus.  The ELH Just doesn't continue listing them past a certain point b/c it would be redundant.  I DO, however, put a limit on such items... Weapon/Armour/Save bonuses can't be more than 3/4 your level (30 in this case) and stat/skill/Resistance bonuses can't be more than your level (40 in this case).  I thought I'd pointed this out before, but if I did or if anybody was wondering, there it is.



 thx for the clarifications, just wasn't sure how far we were allowed to get away from the book.


			
				Jemal said:
			
		

> Just imagine, if you can, the Paragon Pseudonatural Half-Red Dragon Tarrasque.  CR: 47.
> that would be considered a tough boss fight for 6 of you guys at this level.  And it's perfectly legal by the rules.  ALL of those templates can be stacked.
> 
> Hmm, I oughta stat that monster up and use him if any of youse ticks me off ...




mmm sounds tasty!


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## Vertexx69 (May 28, 2007)

Darimaus said:
			
		

> Step one, I don't understand what you guys are getting caught up on. I NEVER stated I was to be wielding more than one quarterstaff at a time. I buy different weapons to use at different times. Why is that such an odd concept? I will use one quarterstaff and the sword at the same time, and if the situation changes, I will switch off the quarterstaffs.



Its all good Dar, I'm no longer hung up. I thought double headed weapon enchantments stacked up (+10 and +10 on same wep =+20). But going over the book I couldnt find any rule about it (must have had my crazy-flakes that morning, don't mind me   ) And the way I read the way you typed it just wasn't clear, couldnt tell if it was 1 weapon or 3. 
And I don't see the problem of having your, tiny/diminuitive (with shrink item), adamantium quaterstaff since it would still only have 10/5 hp.

Ya we could take that Big-T no problem


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## Solarious (May 29, 2007)

Anyone who reads Sepulchrave's fantastic Epic-level storyhour will recall, with affection, Mostin's trump card, *The Horror*. It was just a baseline Ultroloth (pants version) with the template, but it's 90SR, large number of potent spell-likes, reoptimized feat choices, 6 full attack tentacle rakes with Rotting Constriction, among other things, made it something even Demon Princes feared.

Granted, it's only CR 30, but 90 points of SR makes it effectively invulnerable to magic unless you used an abused Epic Spell bumped up to penetrate it's defenses to kill it instantly. And magic is probably the most potent weapon in any relatively normal campaign.

*@Jemal*: Unfortunately, I tried to get a hold of the Complete Scoundrel over the weekend, but it was nowhere to be seen, even at the FLGS. I didn't have time to finish an outline yesterday or today (damn all work hours), but I'll try to get it up tomorrow. By the by, with access to the MMI, MMII, and MMIII, what monsters within would a Shifter qualify for?


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## Jemal (May 29, 2007)

First - How's everybody coming?  Are we ready for a Rogues Gallery?

Solarius - As I stated before, just the basic 'core' stuff. (DMG/ELH).  Anything beyond that has to be an ask-and-you-may-receive case by case basis.

Vertex & Darimaus - *L* You probably could, though it'd be an... interesting fight.

I do, however, have a small swarm of SuperStirge ready if you guys wander into marshland. Lets just say that a couple of THEM could kill said Tarrasque.


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## Shayuri (May 29, 2007)

Not anymore. They errataed Big T to be immune to ability damage. The Stirge Swarm technique has been nerfed.


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## Jemal (May 29, 2007)

Hmm, funny, MY BOOK doesn't say immune to ability damage, and that's what I work off. 

I don't know if I've stated this before, but I don't use errata unless it was to clarify something that was previously left unclear. (Unfortunately that kind of errata, which is what they NEED to be doing for a lot of stuff, is few and far between)


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## Vertexx69 (May 29, 2007)

hehe well said, what do you think of tenneth's brief background there Jemal?


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## Jemal (May 29, 2007)

Vertex - Very cool.


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## Avalon® (May 29, 2007)

Jemal, what would the damage dice of a large scimitar be? 1d8 or 2d4?


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## Jemal (May 29, 2007)

A large Scimitar is essentially a Falchion, which is 2d4.


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## Rino (May 29, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> First - How's everybody coming?  Are we ready for a Rogues Gallery?




I'm ready for RG


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## Avalon® (May 29, 2007)

Only the fluff is missing from my char.


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## Rino (May 29, 2007)

then you will say it is a large scimitar and use the stats from falchion


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## Shayuri (May 29, 2007)

Really? I said errata, but it's actually in the SRD. You have the 3.5 monster manual, right? It should list the immunity to negative levels and ability drain there...


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## Brother Allard (May 29, 2007)

I'm trying to find +4 worth of armor abilities to replace _soulfire_.  Here's a couple I'm looking at - let me know if they're kosher:

*Magic of Faerun:*
_Death Ward_: Once per day, armor enhanced by this special ability makes the wearer immune to death effects. The armor’s magic automatically confers death ward for a period of 70 minutes the first time the wearer is exposed to a death effect in the course of a day.
Caster Level: 7th; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, death ward; Market Price: +2 bonus.

_Negative Energy Protection_: 
This armor’s magic automatically confers negative energy protection once per day for a duration of 5 rounds the first time the wearer is exposed to any negative energy attack in the course of a day.  
Caster Level: 5th; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, negative energy protection; Market Price: +1 bonus.


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## Jemal (May 29, 2007)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> Really? I said errata, but it's actually in the SRD. You have the 3.5 monster manual, right? It should list the immunity to negative levels and ability drain there...




Yes, as has been pointed out to me over MSN by Darimaus, I am stupid..

I'm actually working of d20SRD.org, and I thought when you said Errata, that it WAS errata, though thinking back, that's actually one I WOULD have agreed with, even if it wasn't allready in there.

Rino - Yep, I actually prefered the 3.0 weapon sizing rules.. A Falchion is a large Scimitar, a Greatsword is a large Long sword, etc..  That made sense, no? Meh, Either way, The answer stands. 

Brother A - They both look acceptable, though I don't plan on using Death Magic against PC's unless you guys use it first.. That and considering the Spell cap on participants, Death Ward seems less than productive.  Neg Energy Pro is excellent, though.

Avalon - Excellent.  

ALL - I'm gonna go post an RG right now, look for it soon.


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## Voidrazor (May 30, 2007)

I've got another round of magic item requests.

Crown of Sorcerous Terror: +6 Enhancement bonus to Charisma.+3 Profane bonus to AC. 
+3 Profane bonus to all saving throws. Able to ‘capture’ 10 levels of single target or
ray spells that are targeted on its wearer. The wearer can ‘redirect’ a captured spell as
a Standard Action. The crown cannot partially absorb spells (i.e.,. all or nothing). Non-Evil wearer only: 4 Persistent Negative levels. 200,000gp Dragon312

Basilisk Mask: Wearer always makes his/her save vs. Gaze Attacks. Gains Feat: Diehard.
If the wearer’s hit-points drop to –10 or lower, he/she does not die until the end of
the next round. If healed to –9 or higher before the end of the next round, the wearer
automatically stabilizes and does not die. After 3 uses of this ability, the Mask looses
its magic. 35,000gp Dragon340

Mantle of Second Chances: Gain 1 re-roll/day. Decision to re-roll must be before success or failure determined. 12,000gp Magic Item Compendium (MIC)

Ghost Shroud: +1 deflection to AC, attacks have strike incorporeal normally. 5,000gp MIC

Steadfast Boots: +4 bonus to avoid bull rush, trip, or overrun attacks. Any two-handed weapon you carry is treated as if readied against charges (even if it normally can't be). 1,400gp (I'd be happy to pay more tho) MIC

Sphere of Awakening: Awaken all allies within 60'. Remove exhaustion and fatigue from same. All are immunie to fatigue, exhaustion and sleep effects for 10 min after activation. 1,800gp MIC

Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis: Gain Dark Creature template - +10 move, Hide in Plain Sight, Darkvision 60', Resistance to Cold 10, Superior Low-Light vision, +8 Hide, +6 Move Silently. 22,000gp Tome of Magic

Gloves of the Master Strategist: True Strike 1/day and functions like gloves of storing. 3,600gp Ghostwalk

Mask of Fury: Wearer can Rage as a Barbarian twice per day. To activate, the wearer must smear the mast with his/her own blood (Standard Action + 3hp damage). If the wearer has
been wounded within the last hour, the Rage can be activated as a Free Action & no
additional damage is taken. 12,000gp Dragon324

Ring of Entropic Deflection: Provides Entropic Shield if you move 10' or more. Miss chance goes up to 50% if speed boosting magic items are worn. 8,000gp MIC

Scout's Headband: +2 competence to Spot. 3 charges/day - 1 charge: darvision 60' for 1 hr, 2 charges: See Invisible for 10 min, 3 charges: True Seeing for 1 min. 3,400gp MIC

Sizing (MIC version): As Sizing from Comp Adv but costs +5,000gp instead of +1

Belt of Ultimate Athleticism: can take 10 on Balance, Climb, Jump, Swim, and Tumble checks. Take 20 1/day. 3,600gp MIC


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## Jemal (May 30, 2007)

Voidrazor - No stacking extra charges on an item.  I'm gonna rule that while you can stack charged items as normal items, you can't stack the SAME ITEM onto itself.

Also, could you point out which book each of those items is from?


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## Voidrazor (May 30, 2007)

Jemal - I edited the post above to include sources. Also, would it be OK to make a charged item slotless and get multiples or have it in several different slots? Or should I just abandon this line of thinking.


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## Jemal (May 30, 2007)

VR - I'd prefer not, that completely goes against the purpose behind X times/day.

As for the other stuff:
Crown of Sorcerous Terror - OK
Basilisk Mask - OK
Mantle of Second Chances - OK
Ghost Shroud - OK 
Steadfast Boots - OK without the Auto-ready All weapons.
Sphere of Awakening - is this 1/day?
Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis - NO.  I don't like Items that give templates.
Gloves of the Master Strategist - Um.. I'm gonna say no b/c that price is WAY off.  NORMAL gloves of storing cost much more, so why should Gloves of storing PLUS true strike 1/day cost LESS?
Mask of Fury - OK
Ring of Entropic Deflection - NO
Scout's Headband - OK
Sizing (MIC version) - Is this the Weapon Enhancement?
Belt of Ultimate Athleticism - Seems a bit on the cheap side for Skill Mastery.


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## Voidrazor (May 31, 2007)

Yeah, magic item pricing often seems to be whacked out. Would Steadfast Boots, Gloves of the Master Strategist, or the Belt of Ultimate Athleticism be available at a higher price? And yes, Sphere of Awakening is 1/day, and Sizing is the weapon enhancement.


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## Jemal (May 31, 2007)

my problem with the steadfast boots is the auto-ready vs charge (Specifically even if the weapon can't normaly be readied).  I may give it at a higher price, but it would only apply to weapons that can normally be readied vs a charge.

The gloves wold cost 23,000.  (each glove of storing costs 10K, plus 3,000 for True Strike 1/day @ CL 6, which is the Level of the gloves of storing.)

The belt would be acceptable if we can come up with a good price for it.

Sphere of awakening is ok if 1/day, and As for Sizing, I thought I'd seen it as a +1 in the MIC, though I don't have access to the book now.


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## Lord_Raven88 (Jun 1, 2007)

[sblock=Jemal Only]
I'm still interested in submitting a character for this, but I've had to scrap my previous idea as I couldn't seem to nail down the concept.

Finally I've managed to decide on an idea. I'm interested in playing a Multiheaded (from Savage Species LA+2) Mineral Warrior (From FR Underdark) Jovoc (MM2 Tanari'ri) Fighter / Mortal Hunter (from BoVD) with a penchant for weilding two swords

Basically I like the Jovoc's Aura of Retribution, which means any damage to him is inflicted on all non-tanar'ri in a 30 foot radius (half damage with a fort save). 

He'll have tons of hit points (to soak up the damage) but be only a moderate fighter. So he'll be relying his Aura to take care of business.

I'm not 100% set on using the mineral warrior (aka stony) template, as the only real reason is to boost his Con, however I am keen on the multiheaded template as this would give him the Superior Two Weapon Fighting ability (like an Ettin) as well as +2 con.

As you can I'll need your permission before I waste too much time on the concept, let me know if you need more details on any of the above.

Also I'm keen to the 'Robilars Gambit' (PHB2) feat which will give his opponents +4 to hit and dam, but allowing AoO for each attack made against him.[/sblock]


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## Jemal (Jun 1, 2007)

[sblock=LR]
Actually, I don't have access to ANY of that stuff, so I'd need the specifics on all of it.
I allready don't like the Jovoc, though.  I allready said no to something earlier that reflects half damage back on the attacker, and this is on EVERYONE nearby.
[/sblock]

Also everybody, something was just brought to my attention: 
No Robillars Gambit (PHB2).


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## Lord_Raven88 (Jun 1, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> [sblock=LR]
> Actually, I don't have access to ANY of that stuff, so I'd need the specifics on all of it.
> I allready don't like the Jovoc, though.  I allready said no to something earlier that reflects half damage back on the attacker, and this is on EVERYONE nearby.
> [/sblock]
> ...



[sblock=Jemal]Bottom, I was looking forward to this concept.   

I'll see if I can come up with another concept.[/sblock]


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## Jemal (Jun 1, 2007)

[sblock=LR]
Need any help?  Maybe you could base the character around your 'special/unique trait', if You can come up with one.
[/sblock]
Allright guys, I notice some posts in the RG, but not as many as I'd like.  From my tally we've got A lot of interested parties in this campaign, and only 3 submissions there.

I know lvl 40 characters are a big deal to make, but I'd like to get this going pretty soon with the current 11 players.

So far, we have the following 'interested' that haven't pulled out: 
( * = Submitted to Rogues Gallery)

*Darimaus - Caltrop
*Rino - Iapetus
*Brother Allard - Grugg
LordRaven 
Voidrazor
Shayuri
Avalon
Vertex
Solarius
Caros
Ethandrew
(Did I miss anybody?)

SO, How's everybody coming Along?  
BTW, Once you ALL have the basics of your character (Name, Personality, Background, and fighting style), I can start the IC thread and introduce the story to let the RolePlaying begin.


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## Avalon® (Jun 1, 2007)

Tchk'kla'khan is now in the RG. Btw Jemal, can you give some examples for the special power so that we can have something to base what we should ask for on?


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## Jemal (Jun 1, 2007)

I've given a few throughout the thread, can't recall them off the top of my head... I think I gave less LA adjustment to some people, I may allow custom (Or not normally allowed) races/class/PrC, etc.


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## Brother Allard (Jun 1, 2007)

Jemal: would you consider allowing me to apply a weapon property to Grugg's amulet of mighty fists?  I'm thinking specifically of wrathful healing.  At the moment, I'm carrying around a greataxe only to get some sort of access to healing, but given that Grugg would generally prefer to be in  bear form in combat, that's obviously problematic.

Given the x3 cost premium for the amulet, I would drop the attack bonus to +6 for a total cost of +9, or (1,620,000 x 3) 4,860,000 gp, which I would pay for by dropping the greataxe entirely.

Given that Tchk'kla'khan has 16 iterative attacks with weapons with that same property, I don't think this would be unbalancing.  Even frenzied with rend and a bite, Grugg would essentially have 6.


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## Darimaus (Jun 1, 2007)

[sblock=Avalon] I hope you don't mind, but I have a quick suggestion for your character based off of a similar concept I have run. You have alot of bonues nifty feats in your character that just seem to be extras. The blinding speed for example. If you felt inclined, you may wish to attempt to use these feats instead to obtain Devastaing Critical. A DC 39 save or die effect whenever you crit, which should be about 1/4 of your attacks anyways, is something to be feared. Just a suggestion. [/sblock]


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## Jemal (Jun 1, 2007)

[sblock=Brother_allard] If you want, I could give you a Special ability something like that, instead of it being on the amulet, that would allow you to keep your better attacking amulet.  

Say the Wrathful Healing effect on all of your Melee Attacks?
Or were you thinking something else for your 'talent'(Or did I allready give you one?)[/sblock]


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## Brother Allard (Jun 1, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> [sblock=Brother_allard] If you want, I could give you a Special ability something like that, instead of it being on the amulet, that would allow you to keep your better attacking amulet.
> 
> Say the Wrathful Healing effect on all of your Melee Attacks?
> Or were you thinking something else for your 'talent'(Or did I allready give you one?)[/sblock]



[SBLOCK=Jemal]You already gave me one: applying the feral template to a giant and no LA.

At the moment, the amulet is at +7, so dropping it to +6 isn't a great hardship if that works for you.[/SBLOCK]


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## Avalon® (Jun 1, 2007)

[sblock=Darimaus]The problem, Darimaus, is that I don't qualify for the Str requirement for the feats (23 for Overpowering Crit and 25 for Devastating). Also, I'm not sure but I think I need 3 exalted feats to qualify for the Saint template.

Other than that, I would take those feats instead. I could free up the 3x Blinding Speed and replace them with Power Attack, Cleave and Great Cleave but I will still be needing 2 feat slots for Overpowering and Devastating Crits.[/sblock]


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## Darimaus (Jun 1, 2007)

[sblock=Avalon] Alrighty, heres where things get a little interesting. First off, your enhancement item should make the prereques for your str, as long as you don't lose it or take it off. More importantly, you have a virtual feat for both cleave and great cleave from your Dervish class. You may want to check with Jemal for this one, cause I'm not calling the shots, but stands to reason you can use those to make the feat requirements for cleave and great cleave as long as you are using your Dervish Dance ability that grants you access to those feats in the first place. Essentailly you could use Dev Crit only while Dervish Dancing, which is your primary attack mode anyways. [/sblock]


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## Jemal (Jun 1, 2007)

[sblock=BrotherA]
Works for me
[/sblock]

[sblock=Avalon/Darimaus]
Hope you don't mind me reading, but I AM the DM.  
Darimaus is correct, both about the Strength Enhancement counting (You would temporarily loose access to the feat whenever your str goes down, like in Antimagic of if you take the item off) and the Virtual Feats.  You'd still need Power Attack, however.
[/sblock]


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## Brother Allard (Jun 1, 2007)

[SBLOCK=Jemal]Cool.  We'd also been talking a while back about a blind-sighted weapon ability.  You had suggested that 30,000 gp was too low a price and that you would think about a more appropriate cost.  I'm guessing it slipped off the radar.  Do you have any thoughts?[/SBLOCK]


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## Vertexx69 (Jun 1, 2007)

[sblock=Jemal] I'm still waiting for an answer about the Improved Invisibility Ring for around 120,000g or so. It would make things much simpler, as the only reason i took the lvl of wizard was to get Imp. Invis. 

I'd also like to inquire as to an item that would raise the save DC of my breath weapon by like 20 to make it viable at this lvl.

Also here are the official rules for half shadow dragons and their breath weapon, pg 7 http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Templates.pdf[/sblock]


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## Voidrazor (Jun 2, 2007)

Apologies for yet another magic item list. I've still got almost 4 mil to spend. On the plus side my char is up in the RG.

Greatreach Bracers (+10ft reach for 1 rnd 3/day) 2,000gp MIC

Boots of Bigstepping (+2 CL for teleportation spells, teleport w/o error up to 60ft as a standard action 3/day) 6,000gp MIC

Splitting [+3 weapon enhancement] (ammunition splits in two when fired each doing full damage on a hit) Champions of Ruin.

For the Belt of Ultimate Athleticism: Does 30k sound fair? I might still want them at 40k but would have to think about it.

EDIT: 2 more

Dispelling [+1 weapon enhancement] (can be activated upon striking a creature or object up to 3/day for a targeted Dispel Magic at 5th lvl) MIC

Greater Dispelling [+1  weapon enhancement, Prereq: Dispelling] (as above but Greater Dispel Magic at 15th)

Re: Sizing MIC does have it as +5,000gp. I'm sure someone can confirm this independently. Even so, I'm not assuming that it's OK yet.


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## Jemal (Jun 2, 2007)

[sblock=Brother A] - i don't know, I've been thinking and I don't Think I want Blindsight to be a buyable Ability.
[/sblock]
[sblock=Vertex]


			
				Vertexx69 said:
			
		

> [sblock=Jemal] I'm still waiting for an answer about the Improved Invisibility Ring for around 120,000g or so. It would make things much simpler, as the only reason i took the lvl of wizard was to get Imp. Invis.



By my calculations, such a ring would cost 224,000 GP.  
Use Activated or Continuos: Spell level(4) X Caster level(Min7) X 2,000 X 4(Duration=round/level).  
I'll give it to you for 200K.  that's 10X the normal ring cost.



> I'd also like to inquire as to an item that would raise the save DC of my breath weapon by like 20 to make it viable at this lvl.



Definitely not, though the Ability Focus feat increases it by 2.  Save DC should be as viable now as it was non-epic, if you pump the associated stat (DC = 10 +1/2 HD + mod).  That's 30+Con mod.  That's the equivalent of a 20th lvl spell.  AND I believe B.Weapon is Con Mod, meaning you'd have a crapload of HP.



> Also here are the official rules for half shadow dragons and their breath weapon, pg 7 http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Templates.pdf[/sblock]



Actually, the OFFICIAL rules are in either Races of Dragon or Draconomicon (I have both and can't remember which it's in).  Also, I can't download from this computer, so linking PDF's doesn't help. *shrug*[/sblock]

Voidrazor - 
Belt of Athletecism... 32K.
Sizing keep at +1 modifier, please
Dispelling/Greater Dispelling are ok
Greatreach Bracers and Bots of Bigstepping are ok.
No to Splitting.


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## Vertexx69 (Jun 2, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> Actually, the OFFICIAL rules are in either Races of Dragon or Draconomicon (I have both and can't remember which it's in).  Also, I can't download from this computer, so linking PDF's doesn't help. *shrug*



Yah its in RotD pg 70-71 and its the same as on the crystal keep link I posted above 
[sblock=Jemal]What kinds of things should I be thinking about for the added extra? You mentioned the LA thing, but what about a wipey item for free or extra abilities? Thats why I mentioned the increased save DC for the breath weapon, as I have a 44con currently which only gives it a DC of 43, and since everyone has a ref save of 50+ makes the 1 neg lvl (ref neg) breath weapon useless. Which is what i meant by viable at epic lvl. What about adding the elven warbow ability to my souldrinker bow for no extra cost? Since drow are elves and dryders are drow that have had godly magic cast on them to change their form permanently? Just a couple ideas. [/sblock]


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## ethandrew (Jun 2, 2007)

I'm going to have to back out of this one. It's too daunting of a task and some of the concepts are bewildering! I'd find myself being someone's 1 point in no time flat!


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## Lord_Raven88 (Jun 2, 2007)

[sblock=Jemal] I was thinking of maybe going a paragon human warrior who spurns magic. 

Basically the only magical item he'd have is an amulet of continuous antimagic, also he would have read +5 books for all of his abilities. So all up he would have spent less than 1 M gold. (I'll reduce his starting gold to 1 Million)

So for his special ability I'd like possible two things. Reduced LA on the Paragon class, and maybe making the antimagic field a supernatural ability. [/sblock]


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## Jemal (Jun 3, 2007)

[sblock=LR]I'm gonna have to say no to the antimagic field (Whether supernatural or from an item) right now.  A character built around an antimagic field will always beat one that isn't, and nobody else will be made for it.  If you want to spurn magic, you could either take the Vow of Poverty, or we could talk about trading your money for something else.
[/sblock]


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## Lord_Raven88 (Jun 3, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> [sblock=LR]I'm gonna have to say no to the antimagic field (Whether supernatural or from an item) right now.  A character built around an antimagic field will always beat one that isn't, and nobody else will be made for it.  If you want to spurn magic, you could either take the Vow of Poverty, or we could talk about trading your money for something else.
> [/sblock]



[sblock=Jemal]Um okay DomI (destroyer of my ideas)   

How about a reduce LA for the Paragon template.[/sblock]


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## Jemal (Jun 3, 2007)

[sblock=LR]
Hmm.. You mean for your 'special' power, or in exchange for not having any money?
[/sblock]
[sblock=vertex]
First, most Fighters don't have that high of a Reflex save.  Looking at your fellow party members for example : Grugg needs a 16, and I'm not sure how the rest of you got such high saves.. I'll be going over the math for everything shortly. Suffice it to say, the average save at lvl 40 for the types that'll be in this is ~ +30.  (Also keep in mind that 1/2 dragon breath weapons are SUPPOSED to be useless at lvl 40.. The rest of them have "6d8 elemental damage".
With that being said, I am open to suggestions, but a giant boost seems out of order.  
Hmm...  If you're wanting to be more based off of your breath weapon, I could make it more powerful.   You've allready got it at every 1d4 rounds instead of 1/day, and you don't have the feat that does that.  Did I give that to you for free?  Either way, if you have that you COULD take the Heighten Breath feat..
IN other news, what's an Elven Warbow?
[/sblock]

OK, how's everyone coming?  SO far it looks like we've got 6 posted  in the Rogues Gallery: 

Darimaus - Caltrop
Rino - Iapetus
Brother_Allard - Grugg
Avalon - Tchk'kla'khan 
Voidrazor - Tehrazhon
Vertex - Tenneth

I'll start looking over characters right away, but I think we should soon be ready to start IC Setup & Roleplaying pretty soon.

We also have the following as interested - 

LordRaven - Um.. depends on when I stop throwing walls in front of him. (sorry).
Shayuri - (Currently moving?) - Nymph.
Solarius - Shifter or Daring warrior/Rogue.  (Swashbuckler?)
Caros - Some sort of Swordsman?

SO, if  YOU think you've got enough of a concept in mind that you can begin Roleplaying (Stats won't be needed for a little while), then "Check" the 'ready box'.


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## Vertexx69 (Jun 3, 2007)

[sblock=Jemal]My bad, I had taken dragon breath that lets me use the breath weapon every 1D4 rounds, but seeing it was going to be useless I changed it out but missed the description lower down the post. And I meant elven greatbow from ELH not warbow ;p elven greatbow matches your strength modifier no matter how it changes and every arrow fired from the bow is considered keen no matter it existing bonus. It also has Unerring accuracy but I already have that epic lvl feat as bonus arcane archer. Or maybe take away the +4 LA from dryder as my extra thing: it would give me +4HD, +2BaB, +2 saves, 1 more epic feat, 1 bonus epic feat, +2 enhancement to ranged attacks.[/sblock]


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## Lord_Raven88 (Jun 3, 2007)

[sblock=Jemal]I'd be interested to see what reduction you would give to the paragon template as a special power and if I give up most of my gold.

Also I have an almost completed insectile (savage species) feral tauric Human-Blink Dog, with a crazy number of attacks (about 28 at last count)

And my most recent idea was either going an Illithid Ultimate Grappler (aka brain sucker) or maybe even a Half Illithid Medusa.  

I have to have lost of ideas, as so many of them are being shut down   [/sblock]


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## Shayuri (Jun 4, 2007)

Back!


Actually, I'm stattin' up that Old silver Dragon Ascendent, Jemal. I should have it posted by tomorrow.


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## Voidrazor (Jun 4, 2007)

I'm ready to RP. Still have a bunch of details to finish up on the crunch tho.

[sblock=Jemal]So with this version of the character I'm looking forward to playing out the effects of 'no time to think'. By any chance would the ability to make an opposed skill check against tumble checks to avoid my AoO's be an acceptable special ability?[/sblock]


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## Jemal (Jun 4, 2007)

[sblock=VR] - Nice idea.  Did you have any specific skill in mind?  Spot or Sense Motive would make the most sense to me, and I'll do the added bonus of throwing it in as a Class Skill if you don't allready have it.[/sblock]

[sblock=Shayuri] - yay!  Two questions RE: The Dragon Ascendant.
Any relation to your OTHER Epic dragon?
Any relation to The Great Sea?  (You should recall him from the other Epic game.)[/sblock]

[sblock=LR] yikes, your concepts are way too familiar. OK, Time to take my shots: 
Half-Illithid = NO. Normal Illithid would be accetpable, however.
What's Tauric?
For the Paragon reduction, that depends on HOW MUCH gold you're giving up, and how much you're keeping, and what you're spending it on.[/sblock]

[sblock=vertex]
Hmm.. OK, How's this : NO LA on Drider, and if you want to replace it's racial HD with class levels you can.  And yes, I'll let you keep the "elven blood" to qualify as an elf for such things(This isn't a 'special power', that's just how I see Driders.  They've still got elven blood).
[/sblock]


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## Voidrazor (Jun 4, 2007)

[sblock=Jemal]Hmm 'no time to  think' zeros out both spot and sense motive. Could that be an exception as part of the special. Of course, if the countering skill was jump that would be even better    [/sblock]


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## Jemal (Jun 4, 2007)

[sblock=vr]I don't see Jump as working in that regards, but yes to the first part.  It's not taking time to think, it's quick reaction.
Hmm, maybe a dex-based skill would make more sense in that respect... [/sblock]


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## Vertexx69 (Jun 4, 2007)

[sblock=Voidrazor]A little extra info you might have missed, you get the +12 con mod from your giant warcroc lycanthopy, but you only get the str/dex/con mods when in hybrid or animal form and you cant speak, and a -2 to hit and AC from being huge size. [/sblock]


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## Shayuri (Jun 4, 2007)

[sblock=Jemal]Hadn't thought about it...it's an intriguing idea. On the other hand, Athear has been in the planes most of his life, while I see this new dragon as being something of a material plane-sticking sort, if that's congruent with your campaign background. As for the Great Sea, I suspect he regards 'Big C' as something as a role model, and is attempting to follow in his footsteps. There are only a few roads to true immortality for dragons, and Ascending is one of the few that lets a dragon -remain- a dragon. Sea, as one of the more successful in that line, would naturally be an inspiration for like-minded drakes. Suggestions are always entertained though![/sblock]


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## Jemal (Jun 4, 2007)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> [sblock=Jemal]Hadn't thought about it...it's an intriguing idea. On the other hand, Athear has been in the planes most of his life, while I see this new dragon as being something of a material plane-sticking sort, if that's congruent with your campaign background. As for the Great Sea, I suspect he regards 'Big C' as something as a role model, and is attempting to follow in his footsteps. There are only a few roads to true immortality for dragons, and Ascending is one of the few that lets a dragon -remain- a dragon. Sea, as one of the more successful in that line, would naturally be an inspiration for like-minded drakes. Suggestions are always entertained though![/sblock]




[sblock=Shayuri]Well, here's something to keep in mind : The Great C is a title, not just a single dragon.[/sblock]


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## Vertexx69 (Jun 4, 2007)

what is star metal and why does everyone have it, how much does it cost etc.?

[sblock=jemal]Does that Mic thing apply to all non epic item abilities or just those 7 or 8 mentioned? How much would it cost to add wounding (+2) to my souldrinker composite bow (+5 and 2d4 negative lvls for 478k)? Should I treat it like going from +5 epic to +7 epic and add 670k to the price? Or non epic and only add 48k? Either is fine by by me, I'm just wondering. Can we have inteligent item qualities? The srd says primaries cost 2-10k each so see invis/at will would most likely be a 10ker, uncanny dodge would be 6-8k, imp sunder 6-8k and the like?[/sblock]

[sblock=darimaus]Competence bonuses dont stack, so with the +10 from paragon and the +20 from boots of swiftness or cloak of great steath you only use the higher of the 2. The +30 skill bumps cost 900k and +40 bumps cost 1.6 mil each before your X1.5 to add them to items.[/sblock]


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## Jemal (Jun 5, 2007)

Vertex - Starmetal is from on of the completes.  It's basically Adamantine plus it's got some special affects against Outsiders(?i think).

The cheap stacking only applies to those abilities that were mentioned.

A +2 Wounding Souldrinker would cost 1,408,000 (Plus MW weapon)

And you can have any Intelligent item that's allready stated (As with normal items, you don't get to design it yourself). Such as Zax, cloak of kings


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## Darimaus (Jun 5, 2007)

Vertexx69 said:
			
		

> [sblock=darimaus]Competence bonuses dont stack, so with the +10 from paragon and the +20 from boots of swiftness or cloak of great steath you only use the higher of the 2. The +30 skill bumps cost 900k and +40 bumps cost 1.6 mil each before your X1.5 to add them to items.[/sblock]




I'm not quite sure what you are getting at. Step one, if you peruse my skill list, NONE of my stats use more than one competance bonus. So wherever you're assuming I am, its flat out incorrect. Step two, I'm not adding the climbing to the Boots of Swiftness, I'm adding the Boots of Swiftnesss to the Boots of Climbing. This means the 1.5 multiply is on the cost of the boots of swiftness NOT the boots of +40 climbing. And that +30 to Move Silently is the one ALREADY granted by the Mantle of Great Stealth, I didn't change anything.

One other thing btw. How did you convert a specific weapon thats a bastard sword into a bow? (I.E. Your souldrinker). That doesn't fall into the change slot rules, and Souldrinker isn't an enhancement.


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## Jemal (Jun 5, 2007)

According to the Stacking Rules, You take the full (100%) cost of the MOST EXPENSIVE item, and add 150% of each other ability you're adding.
I believe that in this case that is what Darimaus did.
However, (And keep in mind i havent gone over yoru sheet yet), the Paragon bonus is Competence, and thus IT wouldn't stack with any items.  Not sure if you had taken that into account, but there it is just in case.
As for the SoulDrinker, I hadn't noticed he was using it as a bow...  
While it IS fairly simple to change weapons like that, I would prefer it I were asked first.  If I was, then please point my to the post where I gave my answer.  If I haven't previously said that it _was_ allowed, then I'm going to have to rule NO on switching from between categories(melee to ranged, or Slashing to Piercing to Bludgeoning), but within those categories it should be ok, as the only difference in price would be the difference between the Base weapon. (IE a MW staff is 300 wheras a MW Heavy Mace is 312.  The magic costs the same).

ALSO, [sblock=DARIMAUS ONLY PLEASE]
Sorry I blew up at you on MSN the other day.  If I log on will we be able to talk about it a bit more civilly?
[/sblock]


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## Vertexx69 (Jun 5, 2007)

Ok then, would so would a souldrinder falchion be ok since they are both slashing?

[sblock=Jemal]Ok so we arent allowed to have any epic Inteligent item abilities since there are no premade epic inteligent items? I had taken a couple of common sense steps for granted, so please allow me to back up and break them down for you: 

Sunder in the PHB says you can attempt a sunder with either a slashing or bludgeoning weapon. 

I had purchased (gone now) a Falchion of Ruin ELH(1,000,375) (Since I couldn't fathom how a bludgeoning weapon could sunder anything supple like a cloak or belt) that was semiempathic (1k) and gave the wielder free use of the Improved Sunder feat (10k) 
and a +5 defending gaunlet that was semiempathic (1k) and gave use of Imp. Init.(10k) and Mobility (10k) feats (as these made sense to me). 

After looking through my sheet again I also saw something I forgot to run by you: 
Capote of dragonfly wings (cloak)DR335 p.69 - gives beings with a fly speed +5 fly speed and 1 better maneuverability class. +4 enh to dex, -4 to move silent checks from constant buzzing, wind effects treat wearer as 2 sizes smaller. 85,000g

I Don't know if there is a specific quiver for epic lvl archers (all of which can shoot 25-40 arrows as a full-round action) that holds more than 60 arrows (quiver of elohna) so I stacked it 10 times so it holds 600 arrows (about 20 rounds of combat) intead of some sort of Quiver of infinite arrows. Then I bought barrels of arrows and put them in my portable hole to refill the quiver (as they are all non-magical arrows. I hope its acceptable   )[/sblock]


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## Vertexx69 (Jun 5, 2007)

[sblock=darimaus]







			
				Darimaus said:
			
		

> I'm not quite sure what you are getting at. Step one, if you peruse my skill list, NONE of my stats use more than one competance bonus. So wherever you're assuming I am, its flat out incorrect. Step two, I'm not adding the climbing to the Boots of Swiftness, I'm adding the Boots of Swiftnesss to the Boots of Climbing. This means the 1.5 multiply is on the cost of the boots of swiftness NOT the boots of +40 climbing. And that +30 to Move Silently is the one ALREADY granted by the Mantle of Great Stealth, I didn't change anything.



Apoligies Darimaus, I didn't mean to sound accusatory. Several people have said they weren't used to building this high of level or haven't played in many a moon until recently (raises hand vigorously) so its easy to miss little things like mantle of stealth is an actual item instead of just a skill booster ;p Just trying to help which is why I sblocked it. Peace brother   [/sblock]


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## Jemal (Jun 5, 2007)

[sblock=Vertex] 
Souldrinker Falchion is acceptable.
I'll give you a Quiver of Endless Arrows at the same cost as the 10X stacked one you have.  It can produce infinite NORMAL arrows at will, and can store up to 600 'special' arrows(MW, Magic, Silver, Adamantine, etc).  Calling up any particular arrow takes no extra action.  If it is ever inside an Antimagic field, it has 60 arrows available and they do not 'restock' until it's magic is restored (as by leaving the field).

As for Intelligent items, I'm still gonna say no to anything player created, sorry.

The buzzing wings are OK.. Is the speed bonus Enhancement?
[/sblock]


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## Voidrazor (Jun 5, 2007)

Vertexx69 said:
			
		

> [sblock=Voidrazor]A little extra info you might have missed, you get the +12 con mod from your giant warcroc lycanthopy, but you only get the str/dex/con mods when in hybrid or animal form and you cant speak, and a -2 to hit and AC from being huge size. [/sblock]



Thanks for the reminder. I'll mark the size mods as soon as I get a chance and look for some form of telepathic communication.


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## Vertexx69 (Jun 6, 2007)

[sblock=Jemal]1 last round of items to run by you ;p

Admirals hat, Storm p.131 - +5 unnamed bonus to proffesion (sailor) checks, +5 unnamed bonus to charisma based skill checks, voice can be heard by anyone within 100ft, +2 moral bonus to hit/saves/skill checks for wearer and any allies within range of his voice. 53,000g

The Nine Pointed Star (brooch), DR312 p88 - +3 Luck bonus to saves, 760ft of Dimension Door per day split up however wearer sees fit. 63,000g

Spellblade, weapon enhancement, PGF p120 - when wielding weapon, gain immunity to 1 targeted spell (chosen at creation) If spell is cast at wielder, the weapon absorbs it. On the following round the wielder can redirect the spell as a free action or let it drain harmlessly away. +6000 (seems low to me, maybe +60,000?)

Rod of the Wyrm from EHL, Could I buy a shadow dragon version at the gold/red price 1,897,400g?[/sblock]


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## Jemal (Jun 7, 2007)

Vertex:
Admirals Hat - no
Nine pointed star - sure
Spellblade - no
rod of the shadow wyrm - NO.  

Actually, I'm gonna say No Rods of the Wyrm at all..


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## Shayuri (Jun 7, 2007)

Hey Jemal...here's the sheet I have for my character so far. Sblocked mainly for space...I need some help spending the last 270,000gp. I'm just not sure what to buy.

[sblock]Name: Macrisse
Race: Silver Dragon
Class/Level: Very Old Dragon Ascendent 9
Gender: Male

Strength (STR) 56 8
Dexterity (DEX) 30 8
Constitution (CON) 44 8
Intelligence (INT) 28 1
Wisdom (WIS) 28 1
Charisma (CHA) 46 8

Alignment: Lawful Good
AC: 84 (10 -2 size +10 dex +8 armor +40 natural, +18 deflection)
Hit Points: 40d12+680
Movement: 50'  fly 170' poor

Init: +10
Base Attack Bonus: +40
Grapple: +79
Melee Attack: +61
Ranged Attack: +48
Fort: +49
Reflex: +35
Will: +40

Race Abilities
Breath Weapon: 18d8 50' cold cone, 50' paralysis cone (1d6+9 rounds) DC 42
Frightful Presence DC 37
Sorceror Caster Level 9
Blindsense 60'
4x Low Light Vision
Darkvision 120'
DR 20/epic
SR 27
Immune to Acid, Cold, Paralysis, Sleep
Feather Fall 2/day
Fog Cloud 3/day
Control Winds 1/day
Cloudwalk (Su)
Alternate Form 3/day

Class Abilities:
Awesome Aura (Fear, Resolve), 270' radius, DC41
HP Increase (8 or better on d12)
Transmutation immunity
Improved DR (+5/epic)
Lifewarding
Deflection Bonus
Iron Mind

Skills: 644
Listen +53 (43 ranks + 9 Wis + 1 competence)
Search +53 (43 ranks + 9 Int + 1 competence)
Spot +53 (43 ranks + 9 Wis + 1 competence)
Concentration +61 (43 ranks + 17 Con + 1 competence)
Diplomacy +61 (43 ranks + 13 Cha + 4 synergy + 1 competence)
Intimidate +57 (43 ranks + 13 Cha + 1 competence)
Bluff +48 (34 ranks + 13 Cha + 1 competence)
Disguise +48 (34 ranks + 13 Cha + 1 competence)
Knowledge (Arcana) +53 (43 ranks + 9 Int + 1 competence)
Knowledge (Planes) +53 (43 ranks + 9 Int + 1 competence)
Knowledge (History) +44 (34 ranks + 9 Int + 1 competence)
Sense Motive +53 (43 ranks + 9 Wis + 1 competence)
Heal +40 (30 ranks + 9 Wis +1 competence)
Jump +54 (30 ranks + 23 Str +1 competence)
Know Religion +40 (30 ranks + 9 Int +1 competence)
Spellcraft +40 (32 ranks + 9 Int + 1 competence)
Use Magic Device +44 (34 ranks + 9 Cha + 1 competence)

Feats
1 Power Attack
3 Flyby Attack
6 Draconic Knowledge
9 Increased Speed
12 Great Fortitude
15 Iron Will
18 Lightning Reflexes

21 Multiattack
24 Fast Healing
27 Hover
30 Fast Healing
33 Additional Magic Item Space (amulet)
36 Fast Healing
39 Penetrate DR (Adamantine)

Languages - Draconic, Common, Sylvan, Elven, Dwarvish, Orc, Goblin, Giant, Celestial, Infernal, Auran

Spellcasting

0 - 6/6, 1 - 9/9, 2 - 8/8, 3 - 8/8, 4 - 6/6

0 Arcane Mark, Prestidigitation, Message, Mending, Detect Magic, Mage Hand, Create Water, Cure Minor Wounds
1 True Strike, Shield, Divine Favor, Disguise Self, Grease
2 See Invisible, Invisibility, Cure Moderate Wounds, Lesser Restoration
3 Heroism, Sleet Storm, Blinding Breath
4 Dimension Door, Breath Weapon Substitution

Money - 270k

Weapons -
Bite, +70, 2d8+30, 15' reach
2 Claws, +68, 2d6+18, 10' reach
2 Wings, +68, 1d8+18, 10' reach
1 tailslap, +68, 2d6+41, 10' reach

1 Crush, +68, 2d8+39, 10' reach, Only vs Small creatures

Armour -


Gear -
	None

Magic -
Ring of Fire Immunity, 240k
Ring of Sequestering, 300k
Pectoral Gem of Heavy Fortification, 35k
Boots of Speedy Teleportation (Haste & Teleport), 67k
Luckstone, 20k
Pale Orange Ioun Stone, 30k
Gem of Seeing, 75k
Cloak of Etherealness, 55k
Orb of Storms, 48k

Bracers of Relentless Might & Armor +8, 4.48mil
Crown of Epic Charisma +12, 1.44mil
Vest of Epic Resistance +10, 1mil
Amulet of Epic Natural Armor +10, 2mil
Amulet of Epic Mighty Fists +7, 2.94mil
Gloves of Epic Dexterity +10, 1mil[/sblock]


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## Jemal (Jun 7, 2007)

Shayuri - I'd say Boots of Swiftness, but I see you've allready got boots.  I assume that's just the boots of speed(haste 10 rnds/day) and Teleportation(3/day) combined?
In that case, why not go with boots of Swiftness and add the Teleportation? (Swiftness boots give, among other things, Haste 3/day for 20 rounds each time)
Would cost a total of 329,500.  You say you have 270K, and the other boots cost 67.  That adds up to... 337K.  leaving you with 7,500 GP.


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## Shayuri (Jun 7, 2007)

The only thing is that with Boots of Swiftness, I'd be paying for a LOT of stuff I'll never use. The dex bonus is overwhelmed by the gloves. The skill bonuses are largely meaningless for a dragon. The Evasion is nice, but Reflex is my weak save...

Still...I suppose there's no reason not to. Hee.

Extravagance.


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## Lord_Raven88 (Jun 7, 2007)

Yay the site is finally back up, I've been waiting a whole day to make this post

[sblock=Jemal] I've almost completed work on a Dwarven Druid 5 / Blood Hound 5 / Master of Many Forms 10 / Master of Flies 10 / Natures Warrior 5 / Warshaper 5. 

I'm just finalising the skills and equipment choices. Below are the character classes that I want to use all bar the Master of Flies are from the allowed rulebooks

[sblock=Druid Abilities]
Animal Companion: 
Nature Sense: +2 on Knowledge(nature) and Survival checks
Wild Empathy: Improve attitude of animals via Diplomacy check. +10 druid levels. 
Woodland Stride: Move through any sort of undergrowth at normal speed
Trackless Step: Leave no trail in natural surroundings and can't be tracked
Resist Natures Lure: +4 bonus on saving throws against SLA of fey
Wild Shape (14/day): 10 hours duration.
[/sblock]
[sblock=Blood Hound Abilities(Comp Adv PG 28)]
Mark(2): +5 insight bonus on Gather Info, Listen, Search Spot and Survival checks.
Swift Tracker: Move at normal speed while following tracks
Nonlethal Force: no penalty when dealing nonlethal damage
Ready and Waiting: Can ready action against mark, even outside of initiative. If mark triggers action at any point within the next 10 minutes, the BH can carry out his readied action as if the two were engaged in combat.
Bring 'em back alive: Can turn a potentially killing blow into an incapacitating one. At the BH's option, any melee attack that would reduce a foe to -2 or fewer hit points reduces the foe to -1 hit points instead. A BH must choose to use this immediately upon reducing his foe to -2 or fewer hit points, and before making any other action.
Tenacious Pursuit: +4 bonus on Constitution checks made to resist nonlethal damage from a forced march. +10 speed
Hunter's Dedication: Add Constitution bonus to will saves made to resist the special attacks or spells of his mark.
Move like the Wind: Can move stealthily even at a quick pace. No longer takes a -5 penalty on Hide and Move Silently checks when moving at any speed up to his normal speed, and he only takes -10 penalty on Hide and Move Silently checks when running.
Crippling Strike: +2 Str damage to mark
Track the Trackless: Can track a creature moving under the influence of a _pass without trace_ or a similar effect with a -20 penalty on Survival checks.
[/sblock]
[sblock=Master of Flies Abilities(Savage Species PG 80)]
Summon Swarm(sp): Can use _summon swarm_  10/day as 40th level sorcerer. d20 for swarm type (1-6 Spiders, 7-13 Centipedes, 14-20 Flying Beetles). 
Swarm Shape (su): Can take the form of a swarm of vicious little vermin 6/day. This effect is similar to that of _summon swarm_ spell, except that the swarm is of the same size category as the caster (and has the same face as the caster). The MoF can choose the type of vermin from the list above. In swarm shape, he can move at a speed of 15 feet, or up to 45 feet if the swarm flies (poor man).  The swarm has the same number of hit points at the original creature and can be damaged by fire and area-effect spells and abilities. If the swarm is dispersed (by a gust of wind for example), the MoF must return to his original shape. To do so, the dispersed creatures must first coalesce (at the swarms speed); the MoF must take a standard action on the following round to transform. In all other respects, the swarm shape ability is identical to the druids _wild shape_ ability.
Plague Swarm Shape (su): Can take swarm shape that is identical to that produced by an _insect plague_ spell except that the swarm can be no more than one size larger than the MoF's. This swarm can move at half the MoF's normal speed and can fly at the same speed(clumsy man).
Pied Piper(su): Can charm 40 hit dice of vermin or less 10/day, starting with the lowest hit dice vermin within range and moving up in hit dice until the limit is reached. The range is 100 feet and the vermin are allowed Will saves against this effect (DC14 + Cha mod), and any that make there saves can be affected by this ability for one day. Charmed vermin move towards the MoF at their land speed, taking the most direct path available. If the path leads into a dangerous area they are allowed another saving throw. Charmed vermin can take no actions other than to defend themselves. If the MoF's moves, the charmed vermin follow. This effect last for as long as the MoF concentrates. Once concentration is broken, those vermin can't be affected again by this ability for one day.
Insect Plague(sp): _Insect Plague_ 10/day
Flyblown(su): Can shift to swarm shape and back as a free action
Creeping Doom Swarm Shape (su): Can take swarm shape that is identical to that produced by an _creeping doom_ spell except that the swarm can be no more than two sizes larger than the MoF's. This swarm can only move at 10 feet per round and can't fly.
Creeping Doom(sp): _Creeping Doom_ 10/day
Awaken Vermin(sp): Can use _awaken_ on vermin once per week at no XP cost.
Swarm Leap(su): Can transport self over great distances. Once per day as a standard action the MoF can enter any swarm of mundane vermin (whose size equals or exceeds his own) and travel to another swarm in a single round, regardless of distance. The MoF merely designates a distance and direction, and the swarm leap ability transports him to a destination swarm as close as possible to the desired destination. He can attempt to name a specific swarm, but if no such target exist, the ability fails and the MoF is ejected from the entry swarm.  Both the entry swarm and the exit swarm must be alive, but they can be either naturally occurring or summoned. Except as noted here this ability functions like the _transport via plants_ spell.
[/sblock]
[sblock=Master of Many Forms Abilities(Comp Adv PG58)]
Shifters Speech(ex): Retains ability to speak regardless of the form he takes. Furthermore he can communicate with other creatures of the same kind while in _wild shape_, as long as such creatures are normally capable of communicating with each other using natural methods.
Improved Wild Shape(su): Can assume the forms of humanoid, giants, monstrous humanoids, fey, vermin, aberrations, plants, oozes, elementals and dragons from diminutive to gargantuan size. A MoMF also gains one additional daily use of her wild shape ability per class level.
Fast Wild Shape(ex): Use wild shape ability as move action.
Extraordinary Wild Shape(ex): Gain the extraordinary special qualities of any form she assumes.
Evershifting Form(ex): Gains the shapechanger type and becomes immune to any transmutation effect unless he willing accepts it.
[/sblock]
[sblock=Natures Warriors Abilities(Comp War PG63)]
Natures Armament(su): Armour of the Crocodile: +5 natural armour while wild shaped
Natures Armament(su): Claws of the Grizzly: +3 bonus damage when using natural weapons
Natures Armament(su): Earth's Resilience: DR 3/-
Wilding(su): NW class levels stack with druid levels to determine wild shape abilities and for wild empathy checks
+2 level of Divine Spellcasting
[/sblock]
[sblock=War Shaper Abilities(Comp War PG89)]
Morphic Immunities(ex): Immune to stunning and critical hits
Morphic Weapons(su): As a move action, a WS can grow natural weapons dealing damage appropriate to the size of is form. This weapons need not be natural weapons that the creature already possess. If the WS form already has a natural weapon of that type, the weapon deals damage as if it were one category larger.
Morphic Body(su): +4 Strength and +4 Constitution
Morphic Reach(su): +5 feet reach
Morphic Healing(su): Fast Healing 2, and if he spends a full round action and succeeds on a Concentration check (DC equals total damage sustained) he heals 10 points of damage.
Multimorph(su): Can change forms multiple times during the duration of the Wild Shape ability. Only the first transformation heals the WS.
[/sblock]
[/sblock]


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## Voidrazor (Jun 7, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> [sblock=vr]I don't see Jump as working in that regards, but yes to the first part.  It's not taking time to think, it's quick reaction.
> Hmm, maybe a dex-based skill would make more sense in that respect... [/sblock]



[sblock=EDIT jemal]How about Tumble itself? On second thought, if Sense Motive is OK with you that sounds good.[/sblock]


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## Vertexx69 (Jun 8, 2007)

Since I couldn't find one when I went back through the thread, heres the link to the  Rogues Gallery


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## Solarious (Jun 8, 2007)

[sblock=jemal]Getting close to done, but still waffling on those last levels. 

Asking permission to use Paladin of Freedom varient, from Unearthed Arcana[/sblock]


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## Jemal (Jun 8, 2007)

Solarius - If it's the same as the one on d20srd.org, it's fine.


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## Vertexx69 (Jun 10, 2007)

I think Im ready for an IC thread.


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## Jemal (Jun 10, 2007)

OK, starting an IC thread.

Feel free to post, everybody, though the tournament won't be officially started until SunUp the next day.


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## Lord_Raven88 (Jun 10, 2007)

Lord_Raven88 said:
			
		

> Yay the site is finally back up, I've been waiting a whole day to make this post
> 
> [sblock=Jemal] I've almost completed work on a Dwarven Druid 5 / Blood Hound 5 / Master of Many Forms 10 / Master of Flies 10 / Natures Warrior 5 / Warshaper 5.
> 
> ...



Hey Jemal I see that you've started an IC thread. I've almost completed my character but I need to know if you have any issues with my character classess (see above).


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## Lord_Raven88 (Jun 11, 2007)

Mostly completed character   

*Moved to Rogues Gallery*


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## Jemal (Jun 11, 2007)

[sblock=LR]
Well, I'm a bit iffy about the Swarm shape (master of Flies)... Immunity to physical damage when there's no mages is immune to damage...  I'll leave it for now, but should it become a problem, would you be able to change those Master of Flies levels to some more Master of Many Forms and keep the shifter without the swarms, or would that make the character pointless to u?  I'm really not trying to screw your ideas, I just want the characters to be a good mix, and make for good fights...[/sblock]


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## Lord_Raven88 (Jun 11, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> [sblock=LR]
> Well, I'm a bit iffy about the Swarm shape (master of Flies)... Immunity to physical damage when there's no mages is immune to damage...  I'll leave it for now, but should it become a problem, would you be able to change those Master of Flies levels to some more Master of Many Forms and keep the shifter without the swarms, or would that make the character pointless to u?  I'm really not trying to screw your ideas, I just want the characters to be a good mix, and make for good fights...[/sblock]



[sblock=Jemal]That's cool, if it seems that the Master of Flies is unbalanced then I'll happily change it. 

I only chose it as I wanted to find as many PrC's that would allow my character to change into different forms. Anyway Primal Elementals, Dragons and Sirrushes will be much more fun.[/sblock]


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## Vertexx69 (Jun 11, 2007)

and away we go  IC Thread


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## Jemal (Jun 11, 2007)

LR - Thank you, that would be appreciated.

Vertex - Thank you too.


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## Jemal (Jun 11, 2007)

BTW, as Vertex has noted, the IC thread is up.  

I need to know who has NOT completed their character and posted it in the RG.  This needs to be done within the next week so I can look them over.  The Tournament starts next week.  The sun will rise when I get back from my vacation, and until then I'll be checking in when I can if anybody has any questions, and to make sure all the characters are done.


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## Vertexx69 (Jun 14, 2007)

[sblock=Shayuri]If I could offer just a couple possibly helpful suggestions.
instead of wasting 3 feats for +2 to all saves you should check out the nine pointed star from post 281, and Take some dragon feats from draconomicon (approved source) like maximized breath (like maximize spell but adds 3 rounds to your breaths cooldown) persistent breath (breath deals half initial dmg on following round) and lingering breath (makes breath stay in the area until end of next round, dealing dmg to anything that enters the area or is still in the area). Greater Pectoral of Manueverability (robe slot for dragons) increases your flight maneuverablilty by 2 classes raising yours from poor to good (which lets you hover freeing up another feats slot for other epic feats like dire charge)  or 1 shot draughts of dragon breath that add dragon spell effects to your breath weapon (next round only) if your targets fail the save like: blindness 750g, stunning 1400g, 2d4 lvl drain 6k, energy admixing (add same amount of dmg in normal breath in another type ei: 10d10 cold+10d10 acid) 6k etc.[/sblock]Can we use candles of invocation?


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## Shayuri (Jun 14, 2007)

Thanks for the ideas...but sadly, those three feats are prereqs for my Ascension. Normally, I wouldn't have bothered taking them.


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## Voidrazor (Jun 15, 2007)

Jemal - Arg, I can't believe I have yet another thing to run by you. Is the Chain Lash from Savage Species OK? I was planning on just usng a spiked chain but that won't work with those sunder feats due to being piercing.

EDIT - Also could I get a Helm of Telepathy that doesn't have the read thoughts feature but can be used for voluntary communication without it?


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## Vertexx69 (Jun 15, 2007)

Nice combo Void, being able to sunder from 45ft away is nasty   for everyone but me


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## Voidrazor (Jun 16, 2007)

Thanks. I don't really like the sunder mechanics. But as long as the Blackguard's pre-reqs put me in it, I figured I'd make the most of it.

BTW, how'd you get your Wraithstrike wand to work as a swift action? Sign me up for that!


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## Vertexx69 (Jun 16, 2007)

(Keeping all this stuff strait is almost a full time job), But why does it list wraithstrike as a viable wand spell in CAdv. if using a charge is a standard action and the spell only lasts 1 round (as you can't attack that round) unless it lasts until the end of the next round. That's why I have several memorized as well.


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## Caros (Jun 17, 2007)

Err, It's useful if you can attack as a swift action? Sun school? Shadow pounce etc. Thats about it =/


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## Voidrazor (Jun 17, 2007)

Oh, and for AoO's


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## Jemal (Jun 21, 2007)

I really really dislike WraithStrike.  just something to keep in mind.

Voidrazor - You'd have to tell me what Chain Lash is first.
Vertex - I think I'll say no to the candles for now.

Allright, I'm back from vacation, meaning the Tournament BEGINS today.  I'll be double checking the characters, and anybody who's character is NOT posted in the RG yet cannot leave the 'safe zone' until their character IS posted and complete.

Speaking of which, I need a check in here.  You cannot post yourself leaving the safe zone until you've checked in here to say that your character is Complete.  be sure to include your character's name in the 'checkin' post just to make it simple.


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## Brother Allard (Jun 21, 2007)

Grugg is complete.  And welcome back!


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## Shayuri (Jun 21, 2007)

Macrisse is complete.

Also, by RAW, a wand always takes a minimum of a standard action to use, regardless of the spell that's in the wand. Some classes can use metamagic feats on spell trigger items, at an additional cost in charges, and applying Quicken Spell that way is the only way to get a wand down to a swift action that I know of...


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## Avalon® (Jun 21, 2007)

Tchk'kla'khan is ready. I'm just trying to make a good intro for him.


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## Rino (Jun 21, 2007)

Iapetus is ready, but got a question

are intelligent items allowed?


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## Jemal (Jun 21, 2007)

any intelligent item that's Pre-Printed is allowed.  I believe that narrows the list to what's printed in the DMG, cuz I don't know of any printed elsewhere.  Remember, I said no customized/self made items, and that's what most Intelligent items are.


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## Vertexx69 (Jun 21, 2007)

Alrighty then, Tenneth Shafar is ready to go. (gaining access to draconomicon caused a few changes ;p as I'm a dragon.)


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## Caros (Jun 21, 2007)

Okay, this is the base draft of my character. Only thing required still is explination of magic item descriptions, which will be up tonight. Yay!


Auril

1 Druid, 1 Cleric, 4 Bard, 2 Monk, 2 Blackguard, 10 Seeker of the Song, 5 Focluchan Lyrist, Lyric Theumaturge 3, Fighter 14,

Str: 22 = 10 Base + 4 Inherant + 6 Enhancement+ 2 Graft
Dex: 28 = 15 Base + 5 Inherant + 6 Enhancement + 2 Graft
Con: 42 = 15 Base + 5 Inherant + 20 Enhancement + 2 Graft
Int: 18 = 14 Base + 4 Inherant 
Wis: 22 = 11 Base + 5 Inherant + 6 Enhancement 
Cha: 50 = 15 Base + 5 Inherant + 20 Enhancement + 10 Level

BAB: 28
Fort: 61 = 11 Base + 10 Epic + 15 Con + 5 Resistance + 20 Cha + 1 Luck
Ref: 54 = 11 Base + 10 Epic + 8 Dex + 5 Resistance + 20 Cha + 1 Luck
Will: 52 = 11 Base + 10 Epic + 6 Wis + 5 Resistance + 20 Cha + 1 Luck
AC: 62 = 10 Base + 8 Dex + 20 Cha + 1 Monk + 10 Natural Armor + 5 Deflection + 8 Armor
Base Speed: 80
Initiative: +13
HP: 4d8 + 14d10 + 22d6 +  640 = 869

Feats: (19): Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Bounding Assault, Rapid Blitz, Sun School, Melodic Casting, Captovating Melody, Expertise, Improved Expertise, Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Sunder, Divine Might, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Katana), Deflect Arrows, Skill Focus (Listen)

Epic Feats (7): Inspire Excellence, Epic Inspiration, Lingering Song, Infinite Deflection, Ascetic Mage, Keen-Eared Scout, Quick Reconnoiter

Skills: (324)
Hide: +14 = 5 Ranks + 8 Dex + 1 Luck
Knowledge Religion: +7 = 2 Ranks + 4 Int + 1 Luck
Knowledge Arcana: +18 = 13 Ranks + 4 Int + 1 Luck
Perform (Sing): +104 = 43 Ranks + 20 Cha + 40 Competence + 1 Luck
Spellcraft: +12 = 7 Ranks + 4 Int + 1 Luck
Decipher Script: +12 = 7 Ranks + 4 Int + 1 Luck
Diplomacy: +28 = 7 Ranks + 20 Cha + 1 Luck
Gather Information: +28 = 7 Ranks + 20 Cha + 1 Luck
Perform (Stringed Instrument): +34 = 13 Ranks + 20 Cha + 1 Luck
Knowledge Nature: +18 = 13 Ranks + 4 Int + 1 Luck
Slieght of Hand: 16 = 7 Ranks + 8 Dex + 1 Luck
Speak Language: 17 Ranks (Can speak all languages in PHB) 
Listen: +93 = 43 Ranks + 6 Wisdom + 3 Skill Focus + 40 Competence + 1 Luck
Spot: +50 = 43 Ranks + 6 Wisdom + 1 Luck
Escape Artist: +28 = 19  Ranks + 8 Dex + 1 Luck
Sense Motive: +50 = 43 Ranks + 6 Wis + 1 Luck
Tumble: +64 = 35 Ranks + 8 Dex + 20 Competence + 1 Luck

Special Abilities:Animal Companion, Nature Sense, Wild Empathy, Improved Unarmed Stike, Flurry of Blows, Evasion, Pride Domain, Celerity Domain, Rebuke Undead 23/day, Baric Music, Countersong, Fascinate, Inspire Courage +2, Suggestion, Inspire Greatness, Bardic Knowledge, Aura of Evil, Detect Good, Poison Use, Dark Blessing, Smite Good 1/day, Rapture of the Song, Seeker Music, Comnine Songs, Subvocalize, Captavating Melody, Spell Secret, Unbound

Spells:
Bard:
Spells/Day: 
0: 3
1: 8
2: 8
3: 8
4: 7

Spells Known: 
0 (6): Detect Magic, Light, Dancing Lights, Know Direction,Mage Hand, Read Magic
1 (5): True Strike, Amplify, Invisibilty Swift, Critical Strike, Improvisation
2 (5): Wraith Strike, Heroism, Blur, Fly Swift, Sonic Weapon
3 (4): See Invisibilty, Blink, Haste, Displacement
4 (3): Sirine's Grace, Lingering Chorus, Dimension Door

Cleric:
Spells Prepared:
0 (3): Light x3
1 (3+1): Detect Good, Detect Evil, Divine Favor

Druid: 
Spells Prepared:
0 (3): Detect Magic x3
1 (3): Magic Fang x3

Blackguard:
Spells Prepared:
1 (3): Corrupt Weapon x3

Melee Attacks: +34
Ranged Attacks: +37

Equipment: 
+20 Ring of Perform/Deflection/Wizardry I /Universal Elemental Resistance (Major) (426,000)
+40 Ring of Listen/Invisibility/Sustenance/Fleshring of Scorn (1,645,750)
Boots of Swiftness/Translocation/Tracklessness (274,600)
Tomes of Cha/Wis/Dex/Con +5 (550,000)
Tome of Str/Int +4 (220,000)
Katana (+5, Wrathful Healing, Defending, Invulnerability (As per Rod of Invulnerability), Quicken (As per Rod of Quicken), Immovable (As per Immovable Rod), Epic Negation (As per Rod of Epic Negation), Aurorum) (1,686,550)
Masterworked Locked Guantlet of Storing (15,308)
Cloak of Charisma +20/Flying/Eyes (4,261,000)
Amulet of Constitution +20/Wisdom +6/Teamwork/Tears/Golembane (4,063,950)
Glove of Storing (10,000)
Bracers of Armor +8/Might (70,150)
Monk's Belt/Strength +6/Battle (72,500)
Heward's Handy Haversack (2,000)
Luckstone (20,000)
Chitin Plating +5 (100,000)
Healing Blood (182,000)
Silthilar Muscles (110,000)
Silthilar Bones (110,000)
Silthilar Tendons (110,000)
Blind Helm/Anonymity (33,750)
Goggles of Lifesight (2,000)

46,442


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## Drerek (Jun 21, 2007)

Is recruiting closed?

Great timing on my part as usual.


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## Lord_Raven88 (Jun 22, 2007)

The Protector is ready to rock and roll.


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## Voidrazor (Jun 27, 2007)

Jemal: the chain lash (Savage Species p.43) is essentially the same as spiked chain except that its bludgeoning, doe 1d6, and can be used a non-reach double weapon. T. for a number of mechanical reasons won't be using that last feature.


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## Drerek (Jun 27, 2007)

So, has recruiting closed here?


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## Jemal (Jun 27, 2007)

I'm gonna go with yes.  Sorry, derek.

As to the rest of you - I've had a few... changes lately that are causing an upset in my schedule.  Mostly, they're making me not want to deal with Epic Numbers for a few days.  I apologize for the temporary inconvenience, I should've postponed the official tournament start for another week, but i should be able to kill.. Er I mean Challenge you all soon.


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## Drerek (Jun 27, 2007)

Oh well, thanks anyway.  I'm going to be lurking there, so if a spot does come open ......


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## Lord_Raven88 (Jun 27, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> I'm gonna go with yes.  Sorry, derek.
> 
> As to the rest of you - I've had a few... changes lately that are causing an upset in my schedule.  Mostly, they're making me not want to deal with Epic Numbers for a few days.  I apologize for the temporary inconvenience, I should've postponed the official tournament start for another week, but i should be able to kill.. Er I mean Challenge you all soon.



No worries, I'm content to wait until you're ready.


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## Rino (Jun 28, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> I'm gonna go with yes.  Sorry, derek.
> 
> As to the rest of you - I've had a few... changes lately that are causing an upset in my schedule.  Mostly, they're making me not want to deal with Epic Numbers for a few days.  I apologize for the temporary inconvenience, I should've postponed the official tournament start for another week, but i should be able to kill.. Er I mean Challenge you all soon.




we will wait and see


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## Jemal (Jul 2, 2007)

Really sorry again about the delay guys.  I'm ready to start pretty much any time, but I'm going to be gone from the morning of the fourth until sometime on the 8th/9th, so I'll start it up as soon as I'm back.

I promise I'll make up for it with some deadly-cool opponents.


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## hellrazor111 (Jul 4, 2007)

hey can I join


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## Vertexx69 (Jul 10, 2007)

oh where, oh where has our little jemal gone? oh where, oh where could he be?


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## Jemal (Jul 19, 2007)

Sorries, 1 week vacation turned into 2.. hehe.. don't kill me, eh?
I've got 2 weeks worth of a dozen games to catch up on, as well as some stuff to take care of IRL in town here, but I'll be updating with all available speed.

Speaking of speed, remember those 'deadly' opponents I promised? *evil grin*


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## Vertexx69 (Jul 19, 2007)

Tenneths Comp longbow base dmg is 2d6 not 1d10 (standard size increase for large weapon) ill be marking charges and spells used in the RG if thats ok.


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## ishalleatyourflesh (Jul 21, 2007)

*I beg your forgiveness my liege.*

My liege, i beg your forgiveness for the lateness of my post, but my lord you must know that there was extrenuating circumstances that were beyond my contol. i shall now post my character and statr posting in game.


 your humble servent,
 ishalleatyourfleash


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## Jemal (Jul 21, 2007)

tenneth - very well.

Flesh - Indeed, you are fortunate that I am lenient, my servant.  Now go forth and rend them limb from limb.


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## Jemal (Jul 22, 2007)

> OOC-withing 30ft i have manyshot, which lets me fire +1 arrow for each 5 points of Base attack bonus up to 4 arrows with each attack at BaB 16 (I have a BaB of 27) with a cumulative -2 for each arrow (-8 for 4 arrows per shot) PHB pg 97. My BaB gives me 6 attacks, rapid shot gives me 7, and haste will give me 8 (though I haven't used it yet). 7X4=28 I threatened a crit with a natural 20, with a longbow which has a crit multiplier of X3 , but I accidentally rolled 31 arrows instead of 30 so just ignore the last roll. And since I don't think it critted only 24 arrows would count (if 1s are auto misses) meaning 24 points of con dmg (480hp lossat 40 HD) plus the weapon dmg (minimum 28X24=762) or immediate death in a geyser of blood  .




OK, biggest problem - Yes, It does let you shoot up to 4 arrows as a single attack.. HOWEVER, Manyshot is a Standard action, it is not used as part of a full attack.  
Second problem - You stop gaining extra attacks from BAB at epic, you only gain a max of 4 attacks for your BAB, +1 for Rapid shot, +1 for Haste.  
That's 6 attacks as a full attack(3 at your highest attack bonus-2, 1 @ -7, 1 @ -12, 1 @ -17), or 4 arrows with 1 attack roll (Highest attack bonus -6) as a Standard Action.


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## Voidrazor (Jul 22, 2007)

Wraithstrike is in? As a swift action?? I got the impression Jemal nixed that. But looking back I suppose saying that he really hates it isn't necessarily the same thing as saying no. Pretty close though.


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## Vertexx69 (Jul 22, 2007)

Ok then, that'll teach me to try and make common sense conclusions in D&D like anything you could do with a standard action could be applied to a full action. [sblock=Jemal]So then with your permission I'll need to make a couple of changes as my concept was heavily based on that incorrect conclusion. Like trading out the wand of wraithstrike (for hunters mercy SC), and 2 feats (power attack and improved sunder, for Ranged Sunder CWar and Improved Precise Shot) the new combo is; Round 1: Cast Wand of Find the gap 11th caster lvl (11rounds) (use M device DC20) Full action (draw, use drop into pack). Round 2: use Wand of Hunters Mercy from caster glove (use M device DC20) and stay in position. Round 3+: Stay within 30ft and shoot 1 manyshot as touch, if it hits its an auto crit for 12d6+156+6con dmg(120hp loss at 40HD).[/sblock]


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## Shayuri (Jul 22, 2007)

A standard action can't be combined with a full round action. That's common sense.

Manyshot = standard action. Full Attack = full round action.

The advantage of Manyshot is that you can use it with a move action, which you can't with Rapid Shot and Haste and so on. But to get the advantage of iteratives and rapid shot, you forego Manyshotting.


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## Jemal (Jul 22, 2007)

Also, dropping something INTO a container is a move action, not a free action.  the Draw/cast/drop thing would end up dropping it on the ground.  Just 'saying' you keep your hand over the bag while you use it is incorrect, it's an exploit people like to try, but doesn't actually work.  If you kept it in a belt loop, you could Quick draw(free), cast(standard), Stow(Move).

what DOES work, is this : Tie a foot-long string to the wand, attach it to your belt.  Then draw(move), cast(standard), Drop (dangles by string, can be retrieved and stowed later as an action, but you don't have to worry about loosing it)


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## Jemal (Jul 22, 2007)

*forgot to answer the actual question.. sry..*

Vertex - Permission granted, I hate when stuff like this happens and I know how you feel, sorry bout that.


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## Vertexx69 (Jul 23, 2007)

Alrighty then, wand O------- is attached via fine adamantine chain to belt to allow fullround grab/cast/drop. 

Another variation i came up with some years ago was a type of holster on the thigh that could hold up to 5 wands pointing them slightly in toward the leg (at the wearer) so you could just grab the exposed end of any of the wands and use a charge then let go without actually drawing it. (Using any of them is considered a full round action that does not provoke an AoO.)
But obviously this could only be used for wands that have a target of personal of creature touched.


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## Lord_Raven88 (Jul 23, 2007)

[sblock=Jemal]Are you trying to protect my character because you believe he's underpowered? or is this part of some crazy plan of yours[/sblock]


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## Vertexx69 (Aug 8, 2007)

are we waiting for someone in particular Jemal, or have we stalled? I know epic combat can bogg down very fast, but we spent quite a bit of creation time here


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## Jemal (Aug 8, 2007)

Actually, the main problem is I was called back to work unexpectedly (less than 12 hours notice for Sleep/Packing/Getting Ready), and don't have any of my notes/books/info with me.  I'll be back in town on about the 14th/15th, but I don't want to try running Epic Combatants off memory right now, not to mention brain not working good right now.  I'll have to update my Epic games (Both this one and my Prevention/Problem games) when I get back in a week.

My apologies once again for the delay, guys. 

[sblock=LordRaven]
Crazy Plan. [/sblock]


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## Jemal (Aug 22, 2007)

OK, I'll be updating my Epic Games in a few days, probably by Thursday/Friday at the Latest. 
Sorry about the mass delay, but I just couldn't get the creative juices required to DM EPIC for the last week.  The Problem has since been solved.


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