# Babylon 5 on DVD [NO SPOILERS for Season 5, please]



## John Crichton (Apr 12, 2005)

Okay, I have finally started watching B5 on DVD. I know nothing about the show and expect it to really entertain me. The first 2 eps have been really good (the first being better than the second) and the Trek actors are already popping up, which is a good thing. 

The widescreen presentation is great and looks awesome on my TV. But there is one thing that I have to ask that I think I know the answer to: Did the CG look THIS FRICKIN' BAD when it was initially aired?! Ugh. Any scene with CGI stuff in it (space or live-action merged) looks terrible. I have read that it was because they didn't convert it to HD very well compared to the normal live-action stuff but it is really jarring at times. I know they had a low budget and all but I'm used to Trek/Firefly/Farscape level CG. Eek!

The story and presentation (I really like the aliens) is good so far, so the shotty CG isn't ruining things but it does take me out of the moment a bit. Anyone else have this problem?

I am looking forward to more eps, tho.  I'm already looking for a good price on the Season 2 DVD set...


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## Psychic Warrior (Apr 12, 2005)

The CGI (imo) improves with each new season (although the story gets a little thin after season 4).  "Severed Dreams" from season 3 is probably the high point of the CGI.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Apr 12, 2005)

Babylon 5 was one of the first, if not the first series to make big use of CGI for their space scenes.  It was an evolving technology, and it looked decent enough for the time, but it is weak compared to today.  It does get better, and Psychic Warrior is right about there being issues in the transfer to DVD, which acerbates the problem.  That also gets better in subsequent seasons.

And trust me, the stories get better each season, too.


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## John Crichton (Apr 12, 2005)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> Babylon 5 was one of the first, if not the first series to make big use of CGI for their space scenes. It was an evolving technology, and it looked decent enough for the time, but it is weak compared to today. It does get better, and Psychic Warrior is right about there being issues in the transfer to DVD, which acerbates the problem. That also gets better in subsequent seasons.



The dating doesn't bother me, at all.  I'm more referring to the DVD transfer.  Have you seen the DVD compared to the show because I haven't.  The net is telling me that the CG stuff actually looks better on a non-HD TV.  I should have been more specific.  My bad.  



			
				Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> And trust me, the stories get better each season, too.



I'm counting on it.  Too many folks have recommended this show for it to be bad.

Any favorite characters?  Without giving away too much that is...

I'm liking Sinclair and Garibaldi the most at the moment.  And I can tell that G'Kar and Londo are going to get along swimmingly...  mmm.


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## Mallus (Apr 12, 2005)

It's been a long time since I saw the early episodes, but my recall my take being "Wow, these these are some of the most artistic/best designed/beautiful CGI shots ever rendered by a bunch of home computers".

The level of _artistry_ in B5's effects shots far exceeded their technical expertise (though I always chalked that up to budgetary constraints). I prefered B5's effects to those in say, the later Treks, which were technically higher quality, but less interesting to look at.


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## Mallus (Apr 12, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> I'm liking Sinclair and Garibaldi the most at the moment.  And I can tell that G'Kar and Londo are going to get along swimmingly...  mmm.



Garibaldi is a great take on a archtypal character; tough guy cop with a compassionate streak (which he never directs toward himself) and a troubled past.

Londo and G'Kar are, for my money, two of the best characters SF has ever produced (with Londo being my absolute fave). Watching their parallel development is worth the price of admission alone.


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## Wolf72 (Apr 12, 2005)

I know others have said, but it bears repeating ... the CGI gets better every season.

good viewing, I loved this series ..

season 1 was a bit slow, but my bro and I stuck it out and the later season made season 1 much better.


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## Orius (Apr 12, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> I know they had a low budget and all but I'm used to Trek/Firefly/Farscape level CG.  Eek!




That's the problem right there.  Yer spoiled by the fancy new fangled CGI effects.  

I haven't seen it on DVD, so I can't comment, but the show was produced in the mid 90's so the CGI may seem a bit crude compared to more recent effects.


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## Crothian (Apr 12, 2005)

I've been watching it on DVD too and while the effects are obvious it really hasn't detracted from the show which is what I was worried about


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## Orius (Apr 12, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> The dating doesn't bother me, at all.  I'm more referring to the DVD transfer.  Have you seen the DVD compared to the show because I haven't.  The net is telling me that the CG stuff actually looks better on a non-HD TV.  I should have been more specific.  My bad.




Perhaps.  I've never seen it on DVD on an HDTV, so I really don't know how bad looks in a higher definition.  Besides, that stuff is eye candy, and JMS knew better than to rely on it alone.


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## Psychic Warrior (Apr 12, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> The dating doesn't bother me, at all.  I'm more referring to the DVD transfer.  Have you seen the DVD compared to the show because I haven't.  The net is telling me that the CG stuff actually looks better on a non-HD TV.  I should have been more specific.  My bad.
> 
> I'm counting on it.  Too many folks have recommended this show for it to be bad.
> 
> ...




By Season 2 you should see a big improvement in the DVD transfer.  I'm not sure if it traslates well on a HDTV but I know (having seen all the episodes on TV back in the day) that there is a world of difference between TV B5 and DVD 5 after season 1.  For better.

Favourite characters for me are G'kar and Londo.  They are the first aliens that, to me, feel like aliens.  They have their own agendas.  They don't really care what Earthlings have to say most of the time.  they do what is best for their people.  The two are so similar they coudl be brothers.  One of the most interesting things I ever heard about G'kar was said by a female friends of mine.  She said G'kar always came across as handsome and charismatic - amazing since the fellow who plays him is such an ugly troll!


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## nharwell (Apr 12, 2005)

*CG problems on the DVD*

The CG was MUCH better in the original show (if you can find someone who recorded it from TV, watch it and compare). The transfer to the DVD is the problem.

Althougth the series was filmed in widescreen format, it was broadcast full-frame (4:3) -- so all the CG was done in the same aspect ratio. When Warner Bros made the DVD transfer, they used the widescreen format -- but re-framed the CG without doing any digital enhancements. The result was very inferior, and unfortunately there are no plans to re-do the first season boxed set (AFAIK).  I believe that they corrected these problems in the later boxed sets, but I may be wrong.


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## Dagger75 (Apr 12, 2005)

Man when that show came out they were super high tech.  Back in 93 we got a Video Toaster for out technology lab for my high school.  One of the graphics was a star fury.  It would take like 6 hours to render it on the screen with a desktop.  It was so cool.  

I mean Jurassic Park had just come out with CGI dinosaurs that were the PEAK of CGI effects, now every show can get them it seems.

 I liked the stories and have to agree they got better as time went by.  My favorite episode though was the season finally for season 4 (I think).  And Veer Cotto was one of my favorites.


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## BastionPress_Creech (Apr 12, 2005)

In my opinion, things really start picking up in season two. B5 is one of the best sci-fi series to have aired and really is writing done right. One of the things I have liked most about the series is how JMS laid the groundwork in season one for plots that don't emerge until season four. 

My two favorite regular characters are Delen (who really shows her stuff in _Severed Dreams_ and Lenir (what's not to like about him?). For guest stars or ongoing character appearances, it's Bester and Marcus.


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## Psychic Warrior (Apr 12, 2005)

nharwell said:
			
		

> The CG was MUCH better in the original show (if you can find someone who recorded it from TV, watch it and compare). The transfer to the DVD is the problem.
> 
> Althougth the series was filmed in widescreen format, it was broadcast full-frame (4:3) -- so all the CG was done in the same aspect ratio. When Warner Bros made the DVD transfer, they used the widescreen format -- but re-framed the CG without doing any digital enhancements. The result was very inferior, and unfortunately there are no plans to re-do the first season boxed set (AFAIK).  I believe that they corrected these problems in the later boxed sets, but I may be wrong.




I have season 3 (and have borrowed and/or watched 1,2 & 4) as well as having every esisode on tape and I have to say that the DVd versions are better.  Does the CGI hold up to the standards we have today?  Not really.  But they are more than adequate for the show.


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## nharwell (Apr 14, 2005)

Well, I'm glad to hear the season 3 set is so much better but I'm afraid I have to disagree with you about season 1. Perhaps the tapes you watched were poor quality? Before typing this I just compared 4 or 5 episodes and, even with the superior image quality of DVD, the CG just looks better on my tapes (of course, I have SVHS as well).


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## LightPhoenix (Apr 14, 2005)

BastionPress_Creech said:
			
		

> My two favorite regular characters are Delen (who really shows her stuff in _Severed Dreams_ and Lenir (what's not to like about him?). For guest stars or ongoing character appearances, it's Bester and Marcus.




Heh, Marcus is great.  But I'd lump him in with the regular characters myself.


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## Shag (Apr 15, 2005)

If I remember right B5 season 1 was done with Newtek Lightwave 3.5 on Amiga 3000 computers.

By the time they got to Season 3 they were using Lightwave 5 on IBM workstations.


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## Eridanis (Apr 15, 2005)

An easier question for me may be which characters I _don't_ like, and I still wouldn't have an answer.

Every single major character - and many of the minor characters - will change drastically during the five years of the story. That's part of the charm for many people, I imagine. No one is the same, and some don't even make it alive to the end.

G'Kar may be my favorite. Might be hard to believe in the middle of season 1, but his character will change in ways you can't imagine. Andreas Katsulas (sp?) is a marvelous actor, which improves my memory of him, I'm sure.


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## wingsandsword (Apr 15, 2005)

As has been said, the early seasons of B5 were done on off-the-shelf Amigas & Video Toasters.     The show was made on a shoestring budget (especially early on) and CGI was the only way they could even really afford to show anything in space.  Those Season 1 effects date back to 1993 as well (which were considered quite good for the time), and it really was the first show to use CGI for all the effects (not because it was trendy, because it was cheap and the could show a lot more space battles with CGI for the same budget as models).

The CGI does get somewhat better later on, as they get more of a budget, and the DVD transfers get better as well.  Anyway, the real strength of B5 is not in the special effects, it's in the writing and acting, which is really better than any TV Sci-Fi show in history.  Unlike a lot of shows, the characters really change and grow, they aren't afraid to kill off or seriously change main characters, and things aren't all the same at the end of an episode. 

To somebody who's watching it for the first time: pay attention to the little things.  The show makes a big point out of foreshadowing and setting things up in early seasons which you can go back later and understand what and why things happened.


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## Staffan (Apr 15, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> The show was made on a shoestring budget (especially early on)



I recall seeing a statement from JMS to the effect of "Voyager's pilot cost 20 millions? Dang, I could make a full season of B5 for that, and still have enough left for one hell of a wrap party."


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## Crothian (Apr 15, 2005)

I'm watching the third season now and while the Green Screen parts have been less then great the poure CGI parts are looking pretty good.


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## John Crichton (May 10, 2005)

Just finished Season 1 and am 3 eps into Season 2.  I really liked the first season.  

Sinclair was really a great character.  I was waiting to see how he would be written out (I didn't see him on the cover of the Season 2 boxed set plus I knew Boxleitner was on the show eventually) and it looks like they did a in-between season dump for him.  From a web-search, I guess that many audiences didn't take too kindly to Michael O'Hare's acting so they replaced him?  I thought he played a career military man living on the frontier great.  Sheridan is a cool character and the actor certainly has the charisma to make me forget about Sinclair (almost) but it was a little jarring to have the Commander's entire storyline basically chucked to the wind.  I know he pops up again a little later on (checked his imdb profile, which I really shouldn't have because then I saw the entry for Boxleitner which lead to a spoiler) but still.  After a few more DVDs I'm sure I won't miss him as much.

I tried watching one of the commentaries by JMS but the damn thing was FULL OF SPOILERS.  Gah, they were peppered in there pretty hard-core so I had to shut it off after 10 minutes.  I should have known better as I am not at all new to TV on DVD.


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## Plane Sailing (May 10, 2005)

I was really disappointed that (for whatever reason) Sinclair didn't work out. He had the most convincing gravitas of a commander that I'd seen in any space epic. I particularly liked the resolution he came up with for the dock strike in "by any means necessary) (observing the no spoilers request, naturally).

To my mind the big significance of Babylon 5 was that JMS changed the way that TV sci-fi would be done forever. Gone were the bad old days when basically every episode started from a blank slate. In came story arcs, foreshadowing and all the stuff that is expected in intelligent TV sci-fi nowadays.

I just got series 1-4 on DVD before Christmas and watched my way through all of them, and still loved it.

Its just great.


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## Mouseferatu (May 10, 2005)

Actually, my understanding is that O'Hare wasn't dumped, per se. Rather, he wanted to go off and do his own thing, and JMS knew that he was bringing in Capt. Sheridan eventually anyway, so they mutually agreed to take advantage of the opportunity and up the time-table.

Of course, that could just be PC cover for the fact that O'Hare was fired, but I tend to doubt it, due to--well, other things.


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## John Crichton (May 10, 2005)

There are actually a bunch of sites I'd like to read on the topic of Sinclair, including one that showed what the show would/could have been with him as the central character for all 5 seasons.  Just google it to see what I mean.  The reason I didn't read the site was the massive spoiler warning they gave at the start.  Kudos to them for that.  

Ah, just found it again:  http://www.webcs.com/b5/neverwas.html

I'll have to come back to that page after the rest of the DVDs are done.

The one thing I got from that commentary before I shut it off was that JMS had trapdoors for all the characters, which was smart.  

Plane Sailing:  Feel free to talk about Season 1, it has been watched (maybe just spoiler tags for those new to the thread).    I really liked the ep that you mentioned.  The way he handled things at the end was very outside the box and solidified that it was his station.


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## Zog (May 10, 2005)

After you've finished watching the series, listen to the commentaries.  They have far more info, and more correct info, than that 'what may have been' website.  Some of the statements on that site are directly contridicted by JMS's commentaries on episodes.

A better bet would be to check out The Lurker's Guide.


But, yeah, enjoy the series!  DVDs- the only way to watch good television.


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## Staffan (May 10, 2005)

Another reason for dumping O'Hare was that he was already linked to the Minbari and Battle of the Line and probably some other things I don't remember, and it would be too much to also link him to (big upcoming thing). So JMS put in someone who could be linked to said thing instead.


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## LightPhoenix (May 10, 2005)

There's also a couple of points in that article which actually would have been addressed, with _Crusade_.  Not that you would really know from the series as it aired, but the additional scripts that were online.


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## Thornir Alekeg (May 10, 2005)

Just keep watching.  One of the things I loved the most about this series was realizing that an episode I enjoyed for itself from season I was tied to events in later seasons.  

That and Bester.  Gotta love to hate Bester.


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## John Crichton (May 11, 2005)

Hmm, I'll keep it all in mind.

I'm glad I waited this long to watch the show.  Gives me something to enjoy while scifi TV is in hibernation.


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## Seravin (May 11, 2005)

The Lurker's Guide to Babylon 5 was the definitive site for all things B5 when it was airing:
http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/.

The episode write-ups were fantastic - the maintainers would correlate every reference in each episode and post JMS's replies to usenet questions that dealt with that episode.


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## Plane Sailing (May 11, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> There are actually a bunch of sites I'd like to read on the topic of Sinclair, including one that showed what the show would/could have been with him as the central character for all 5 seasons.  Just google it to see what I mean.  The reason I didn't read the site was the massive spoiler warning they gave at the start.  Kudos to them for that.
> 
> Ah, just found it again:  http://www.webcs.com/b5/neverwas.html




Thanks for that link, I'd not seen it before but it was very interesting. While I may not agree with all of his analysis I think his reading of the Sinclair possibilities is very sound. Although I like Sheriden and his role, I never liked him as much as Sinclair, and I had always wished that B5 had been able to keep Sinclair as its central figure throughout the series. It would have been great, and in several respects (as mentioned there) a much more natural development in the series.

Cheers


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 11, 2005)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> Thanks for that link, I'd not seen it before but it was very interesting. While I may not agree with all of his analysis I think his reading of the Sinclair possibilities is very sound. Although I like Sheriden and his role, I never liked him as much as Sinclair, and I had always wished that B5 had been able to keep Sinclair as its central figure throughout the series. It would have been great, and in several respects (as mentioned there) a much more natural development in the series.
> 
> Cheers



Yes, I liked Sinclair, too. I don´t know if it´s the character or the actor that actually makes me prefer Sinclair to Sheridan, but I definitely prefered him.


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## John Crichton (May 13, 2005)

I just watched the ep where Sinclair gives Garibaldi the message about him and the Rangers.  I almost let out a little girly squeal when he popped up on the monitor.  I am starting to warm a bit more to Sheridan.  He ain't a bad character by any stretch.

With the show being so good I'm surprised JMS hasn't gotten another series off the ground since.  I know he's been busy doing comics but this is some very good stuff.  It will be interesting to compare it to DS9.  I plan on watching the full run after I finish the 5 seasons of B5.


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## Staffan (May 13, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> With the show being so good I'm surprised JMS hasn't gotten another series off the ground since.



He did make two seasons of Jeremiah before he quit on account of "creative differences" (read: his bosses tried telling him what to do with the show, and he refused).


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## wingsandsword (May 13, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> I just watched the ep where Sinclair gives Garibaldi the message about him and the Rangers.  I almost let out a little girly squeal when he popped up on the monitor.  I am starting to warm a bit more to Sheridan.  He ain't a bad character by any stretch.
> 
> With the show being so good I'm surprised JMS hasn't gotten another series off the ground since.  I know he's been busy doing comics but this is some very good stuff.  It will be interesting to compare it to DS9.  I plan on watching the full run after I finish the 5 seasons of B5.



Yes, Sheridan really comes into his own later.  In fact, many fans prefer him to Sinclair.

I think JMS is a little burned out on doing work for TV, especially after the debacle that was Crusade.  TNT funded a spin-off series set a few years after the main B5 series, and JMS had a clear plot and tone in mind, but TNT kept wanting to "dumb it down" and add more fistfights (including completely gratiuitous bar fights added for no apparent reason), skin, and get rid of all that annoying talking and thinking.  They also pulled a "Firefly" and aired the episodes way out of intended order, and the whole experience left him a little drained.  The "Creative Differences" over Jeremiah was probably the last straw.  He's probably had too many run-ins with network executives over the years to easily go back to a television format .

Crusades main legacy was that it was a brief glimpse into what happened after the main body of the B5 story, and some scripts that were written but the show was cancelled right before which explained the eventual fate of Bester and where the Technomages got their powers.


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## Staffan (May 13, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> He's probably had too many run-ins with network executives over the years to easily go back to a television format.



I wouldn't say that. He occasionally drops a line on Usenet or wherever (I'm on a mailing list where I receive copies of stuff he posts here and there) where he says he's working on getting new series done. They just haven't panned out much.


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## Endur (May 16, 2005)

Some of JMS's problems are his own fault, not the fault of network executives.  

Instead of thinking that he can routinely churn out fantastic shows, he should have stuck with Babylon 5 and turned out season 6+ of B5.

Yes, people would eventually have tired of it.  But he could have had several more successful years on TV.

In the final analysis, JMS is the one that killed Crusade.  He sold the Network execs on a great product "B5 season 4", then persuaded them that Crusade Season 1 would be a good successor to B5 season 5.  

B5 Season 5 was a drop in quality from B5 season 4.  Crusade Season 1 was an even bigger drop in quality from B5 Season 5.  The Network execs reacted when they realized a bait and switch had occurred and dropped Crusade.


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## Viking Bastard (May 16, 2005)

It was JMS that dropped Crusade, not TNT. Creative differances.

Some of JMS's problems *are* his own fault. He's not the most diplomatic man 
around. He has trouble with everyone he works for. Every network, every comic 
book publisher, every studio, every time.

He's a stubbourn arse. He's just such a goddamn talented stubbourn arse.


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## TwistedBishop (May 16, 2005)

What are you referring to, why the show ended?  That's been made very clear:  it was a ratings issue.  It didn't bomb out, if that's what you're thinking.  The ratings were fine.  The problem was TNT didn't just want good ratings, they wanted people who tuned in to Crusade to stick around after it ended each night.  And that wasn't happening.  So TNT played some goofy game with Straczynski, sending him increasingly inane production notes.  Think of it as psychological warfare from suits.  I can't see how any of that is his fault.

Comparing Crusade to Babylon 5 isn't very fair.  B5's first season was incredibly rocky, and if it had gotten canned then, when no one knew of the fantastic stuff to come in latter seasons, most complaints would boil down to the same ones we're seeing against Crusade.  Crusade was never about spending five seasons looking for a cure to a plague; it was supposed to turn into a deeper story about Earth's corruption and leftover Shadow technology.  You seem to be saying that, since Crusade didn't immediately jump to the climax of action that was akin to B5 Season Four, it was some utter failure.  It makes no sense to me how you expect to instantly get into the thick of a story's plot.

I also can't believe you're suggesting Straczynski should have continued B5 past Season Five, which was the conclusion to the story he set out to tell.  I think everyone who has experienced how awful fiction can get when it's extended for commercial reasons (X-Files and Buffy running way past their prime, and Wheel of Time's insanity) would support his decision to remain true to his story.


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## KenM (May 16, 2005)

Endur said:
			
		

> Instead of thinking that he can routinely churn out fantastic shows, he should have stuck with Babylon 5 and turned out season 6+ of B5.
> B5 Season 5 was a drop in quality from B5 season 4.  Crusade Season 1 was an even bigger drop in quality from B5 Season 5.  The Network execs reacted when they realized a bait and switch had occurred and dropped Crusade.




  From everything I heard about B5, JMS had a 5 year arc for it. The reason season 5 was so poor compared with seasons 1-4 was JMS was not sure until the very last minute that TNT was going to let him do a season 5. So JMS had to tie up all the major plot threads in season 4 and do some other stuff in season 5. I don't want to post spoilers here for people that have not seen the whole series. 
  From what I heard about Crusade, TNT wanted a show that was more action and lots of scantailly clad women, not the orginal version of Crusade, so JMS droped it.


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## TwistedBishop (May 16, 2005)

KenM's right, there is that factor to why S5 didn't have quite the same punch as S4.  However, it's not like the whole season was created off the cuff.  Straczynski has said before that if he'd known there would be a S5, only about the last three arc episodes of S4 would have been moved into Fifth, which is basically what we saw happen with S3 leading into S4.  That's not a huge change, but it does take some of the dramatic punch out of the beginning.  

If you actually look at what Season Five was intended to be, had certain actors stayed on (I don't want to post spoilers here), it would have been a lot more powerful.  That would have vastly mproved the entire Byron miniarc for me, which has always been my sticking point for the season.  The rest of the episodes are fine, and they give us one of the best conclusions to a character ever on television.  

TNT's idea of improving Crusade was asking JMS to include a sexual explorer, and having the female crew member (Dureena) raped as a blackmail tactic by the Captain.  These people are chimps.


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## Staffan (May 16, 2005)

TwistedBishop said:
			
		

> What are you referring to, why the show ended?  That's been made very clear:  it was a ratings issue.



How can Crusade's cancellation be an issue of ratings when it was cancelled before they had even aired one episode?


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## TwistedBishop (May 16, 2005)

Replace "Crusade" with "Babylon 5-Season Five", and there you have it.  Same effect, different names.


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## John Crichton (May 16, 2005)

Fellas, I'm gettin' a strong post-season 2 spoiler vibe off the current conversation.  It's not giving away much but I'd like to be as pure as possible while still enjoying the DVDs and this topic.  Thanks.  

DVD Update:  I'm on disc 4 of Season 2 at the moment.  Just watched the ep of the "newscast" where the Narn/Centauri crusiers pop up and blow each other to space slag.  Good stuff.  The actual meat of the story is starting to heat up it looks like...


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## Storm Raven (May 16, 2005)

TwistedBishop said:
			
		

> Replace "Crusade" with "Babylon 5-Season Five", and there you have it.  Same effect, different names.




"Hi, I'm TwistedBishop, and I don't know what I'm talking about".

Seriously. Crusade was cancelled because JMS couldn't live with the asinine production notes sent to him by TNT. Things like: the big gun on the Excalibur must be fired in every episode, you should have a "sexual explorer" added to the crew, characters should rape one another, and you should have lots of WWF-style fighting (in point of fact, one exec suggested that JMS look to the WWF as an example of how to do good character development).

Stupid people who shouldn't be in charge of driving themselves to 7-11 killed the show.


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## KenM (May 16, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Fellas, I'm gettin' a strong post-season 2 spoiler vibe off the current conversation.  It's not giving away much but I'd like to be as pure as possible while still enjoying the DVDs and this topic.  Thanks.
> 
> DVD Update:  I'm on disc 4 of Season 2 at the moment.  Just watched the ep of the "newscast" where the Narn/Centauri crusiers pop up and blow each other to space slag.  Good stuff.  The actual meat of the story is starting to heat up it looks like...





  Wait until season 3, hehe. One of the things I like about the show is how the characters evolve from show to show. Also in the later seasons, they start to refer back to stuff that happened in eariler shows.


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## TwistedBishop (May 17, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> "Hi, I'm TwistedBishop, and I don't know what I'm talking about".
> 
> Seriously. Crusade was cancelled because JMS couldn't live with the asinine production notes sent to him by TNT. Things like: the big gun on the Excalibur must be fired in every episode, you should have a "sexual explorer" added to the crew, characters should rape one another, and you should have lots of WWF-style fighting (in point of fact, one exec suggested that JMS look to the WWF as an example of how to do good character development).
> 
> Stupid people who shouldn't be in charge of driving themselves to 7-11 killed the show.





I did mention the production notes, didn't I?  Exactly what does your repetition of what I had already stated earlier prove?  The fact remains the entire Crusade issue started with ratings, most of it from the Babylon 5 Season Five run on TNT (but I suppose it might also have played off their reruns of previous seasons as well).  

If you feel like debating the issue further, perhaps you should take into account that this is all coming from Straczynski himself.  Here's what JMS had to say about it personally at the Hawthorne Comic Con last May:  

"I ran into some guys who worked for TNT about two years after Crusade went down. And they said, "Did you ever hear the rest of the story?" 

JMS: "What rest of the story?" 

TNT guys: "We found out, we did a research survey, a five year long study of our ratings. This was just after Crusade got going. And, we found out that the audience for B5 came for B5, then left afterward. And the TNT regular viewers didn't stick around for B5 and went away and came back. B5 wasn't adding to our viewer base." 

So...they decided to pull the plug on Crusade for that reason and use the money to buy another show. But they couldn't say that because they'd be in breach of contract with Warner Bros. So their job was to make it impossible for us so they could then say, "We aren't getting the show we want, our notes aren't being dealt with, therefore we aren't responsible, we're canceling the show, this is your nut Warner Bros., you take care of it." That is why all the notes became so egregious. If I had given them everything they wanted, they still would have pulled the plug. They just wanted out."


----------



## Viking Bastard (May 17, 2005)

So TNT tricked JMS into quitting?


----------



## TwistedBishop (May 17, 2005)

I think TNT's main goal was to justify a way out of the contract, like he says above.


----------



## John Crichton (May 17, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> Wait until season 3, hehe. One of the things I like about the show is how the characters evolve from show to show. Also in the later seasons, they start to refer back to stuff that happened in eariler shows.



 Yeah, I am enjoying the current season armed with the knowledge that 3&4 are even better than this.  It sucks not being able to listen to the commentaries for fear of spoilers.  JMS is very interesting and I like to hear his take on things.

No big.  It just gives me something else to watch/listen after I finish the series.


----------



## MojoGM (May 17, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Yeah, I am enjoying the current season armed with the knowledge that 3&4 are even better than this. It sucks not being able to listen to the commentaries for fear of spoilers. JMS is very interesting and I like to hear his take on things.
> 
> No big. It just gives me something else to watch/listen after I finish the series.




Keep us updated on your viewing.  Since B5 is one of my favorite series, I like to hear the impressions of someone new to the whole thing


----------



## Plane Sailing (May 17, 2005)

Note to Twisted Bishop, Storm Raven and others who wish to discuss Crusade and various theories about the management of the TV series - please would you start a new thread to discuss that. It would be all to easy for spoilers to creep in and JC has already explicitly asked for no spoilers.

So no more discussion of things post season 2 disc 4 until we get an update on John's progress.

Thanks for your co-operation.

Cheers


----------



## Storm Raven (May 17, 2005)

TwistedBishop said:
			
		

> I did mention the production notes, didn't I?  Exactly what does your repetition of what I had already stated earlier prove?  The fact remains the entire Crusade issue started with ratings, most of it from the Babylon 5 Season Five run on TNT (but I suppose it might also have played off their reruns of previous seasons as well).




Actually, it all started with lousy work on the part of network executives. You see, first there was the whole issue of whether the series would be picked up for Season 5, the poor network support for season 5, and then the asinine interference in the actual production of Crusade. The ratings, to the extent they were a problem, were directly attributable to poor handling by the network.



> _If you feel like debating the issue further, perhaps you should take into account that this is all coming from Straczynski himself.  Here's what JMS had to say about it personally at the Hawthorne Comic Con last May:
> 
> "I ran into some guys who worked for TNT about two years after Crusade went down. And they said, "Did you ever hear the rest of the story?"
> 
> ...





None of which supports the statement that ratings were the issue. This supports the statement that TNT executives didn't know what they were doing. It wasn't about declining ratings, as you have said, nothing in the TNT guys statement deals with that, they said that for some reason getting a different set of viewers for B5 than their other shows was seen as a problem (since apparently, having a diverse market base is bad).

So now, you have shown that not only do you not know what you are talking about, but you can't read what you yourself have posted either.


----------



## Plane Sailing (May 17, 2005)

Storm Raven, you have just deliberatly ignored a moderator request.  If you'd like to email me to explain why you think that is a good idea, you are welcome to do so. I was within a few seconds of handing you a 24 hour ban, but thought I'd give you one more chance.

Don't do it again please.

Regards


----------



## Orius (May 18, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> DVD Update:  I'm on disc 4 of Season 2 at the moment.  Just watched the ep of the "newscast" where the Narn/Centauri crusiers pop up and blow each other to space slag.  Good stuff.  The actual meat of the story is starting to heat up it looks like...




You ain't seen nothing yet!


----------



## John Crichton (May 18, 2005)

MojoGM said:
			
		

> Keep us updated on your viewing. Since B5 is one of my favorite series, I like to hear the impressions of someone new to the whole thing



Sure thing.  That's one of the reasons I keep posting.  I'd love to hear what other people new to shows that I have watched think while watching DVDs.  Shows like Buffy, Farscape & Angel.  This really adds to my fun.

I'll try and throw in a few mini-reviews and story predictions as well if I can find the time.


----------



## John Crichton (May 18, 2005)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> Note to Twisted Bishop, Storm Raven and others who wish to discuss Crusade and various theories about the management of the TV series - please would you start a new thread to discuss that. It would be all to easy for spoilers to creep in and JC has already explicitly asked for no spoilers.
> 
> So no more discussion of things post season 2 disc 4 until we get an update on John's progress.
> 
> ...



 Many thanks, PS.  * thumbs up*


----------



## John Crichton (May 18, 2005)

Orius said:
			
		

> You ain't seen nothing yet!



 That's what I'm hoping!  

I really like being able to watch these eps a chunk at a time.  Having to wait for new eps week after week must have been torture, especially after a particularity juicy plot point was introduced.  My retention isn't great either so having seen the eps so close together really helps to piece together the story bits that I normally would have missed.


----------



## Mouseferatu (May 18, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> That's what I'm hoping!
> 
> I really like being able to watch these eps a chunk at a time.  Having to wait for new eps week after week must have been torture, especially after a particularity juicy plot point was introduced.  My retention isn't great either so having seen the eps so close together really helps to piece together the story bits that I normally would have missed.




Especially since there were multiple hiatuses (hiati?) of _months_, not only between seasons, but occasionally _during_ seasons.  :\


----------



## Zog (May 18, 2005)

Very Important Note regarding Spoilers!!!!

Do not, I repeat, DO NOT read the booklet that comes with the DVD set for seasons 3&4.  Reading the brief explainations of episodes contains MAJOR spoilers.  You will be much happier if you do not read the booklet.  Trust me.


----------



## Plane Sailing (May 18, 2005)

Tell us when you get to the last episode of season 2. I really want to talk about that one!

Cheers


----------



## John Crichton (May 18, 2005)

Zog said:
			
		

> Very Important Note regarding Spoilers!!!!
> 
> Do not, I repeat, DO NOT read the booklet that comes with the DVD set for seasons 3&4.  Reading the brief explainations of episodes contains MAJOR spoilers.  You will be much happier if you do not read the booklet.  Trust me.



 Ah, thanks for the heads-up.  I don't usually read them unless I'm really bored but now I'l totally stear clear.


----------



## John Crichton (May 18, 2005)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Especially since there were multiple hiatuses (hiati?) of _months_, not only between seasons, but occasionally _during_ seasons.  :\



 Ugh.  That used to drive me crazy when Farscape did it.  There was the 6 month wait in the middle of season 4 that drove me mad.


----------



## John Crichton (May 18, 2005)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> Tell us when you get to the last episode of season 2. I really want to talk about that one!
> 
> Cheers



 I certainly shall. I'm on dics 4 right now and the whole season may get finished off over the next few days as I don't work (took some time off for Star Wars/mental health). I'm trying to get a cheap copy of season 3 off ebay but if I have to I'll just go to Best Buy and blow the $80. The other sets I managed to get for ~60, which is reasonable. More than that is too much for one season of TV. Especially considering that the Buffy/Angel sets can easily be found for $40.


----------



## Staffan (May 18, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> I certainly shall. I'm on dics 4 right now and the whole season may get finished off over the next few days as I don't work (took some time off for Star Wars/mental health). I'm trying to get a cheap copy of season 3 off ebay but if I have to I'll just go to Best Buy and blow the $80. The other sets I managed to get for ~60, which is reasonable. More than that is too much for one season of TV. Especially considering that the Buffy/Angel sets can easily be found for $40.



If you have a DVD player that is capable of playing region 2 DVDs (and would likely need to be able to convert the image from PAL to NTSC, but I'm not sure of that), you might want to look into getting them from amazon.de. I got season 3 and 4 there for €30 each + S&H, and they do come with English sound.

As an added benefit, you wouldn't be tempted to get spoiled by the booklet, since it's in German.


----------



## John Crichton (May 18, 2005)

Staffan said:
			
		

> If you have a DVD player that is capable of playing region 2 DVDs (and would likely need to be able to convert the image from PAL to NTSC, but I'm not sure of that), you might want to look into getting them from amazon.de. I got season 3 and 4 there for €30 each + S&H, and they do come with English sound.
> 
> As an added benefit, you wouldn't be tempted to get spoiled by the booklet, since it's in German.



 My computer's DVD player could do it, but my monitor is much smaller than my 16:9 TV.  But thank you for the tip.


----------



## Tiberius (May 18, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Ugh.  That used to drive me crazy when Farscape did it.  There was the 6 month wait in the middle of season 4 that drove me mad.




Oh, man.  If I had to wait the entire summer between season 3 and 4, I would be posting from prison right now, having gone out and killed someone.


----------



## TDRandall (May 19, 2005)

I'm currently taking a similar tour through the show.  I would have sworn I hadn't seen anything past season two when it was showing on TV, but as I'm nearing the end of season 3 I still come across some episodes that are familiar.  Of course, now I can see how those bits actually FIT together and are interconnected into a larger whole.  I can't wait to see how they move from where I am to the remaining bits I remember but have yet to see.


----------



## John Crichton (May 19, 2005)

Tiberius said:
			
		

> Oh, man.  If I had to wait the entire summer between season 3 and 4, I would be posting from prison right now, having gone out and killed someone.



 Yeah, 6 months sucks.  And it wasn't even between seasons, it was the middle of season 4.  That was also the same hiatus that we found out that there would be no season 5.  Crushing, to say the least.


----------



## Mouseferatu (May 19, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Yeah, 6 months sucks.  And it wasn't even between seasons, it was the middle of season 4.  That was also the same hiatus that we found out that there would be no season 5.  Crushing, to say the least.




Thankfully, that particular "crush" went away pretty quick, thanks to TNT. (Who, while I will never forgive them for scuttling Crusade before it started, still get credit for allowing B5 a final season.)

But yeah, that break in the middle of S4... *shudder*


----------



## John Crichton (May 19, 2005)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Thankfully, that particular "crush" went away pretty quick, thanks to TNT. (Who, while I will never forgive them for scuttling Crusade before it started, still get credit for allowing B5 a final season.)
> 
> But yeah, that break in the middle of S4... *shudder*



Ya know, this topic is such an interesting dichotomy. The times were are speaking of were very dark and distressing for science fiction TV.

And now, I'm smack in the middle of Star Wars euphoria and I get to come home and watch B5 which never fails to entertain and actually makes me think. A mini-Golden Age if I ever saw one. I never thought I'd recover from Farscape and Firefly getting cancelled within such close proximity to each other. And the cherry on top is that just as this Star Wars buzz wears off the Firefly movie will be out. That will probably be about the time I polish off B5 (assuming I don't do what I did with Buffy and watch an entire season over the course of a weekend - which may happen if I hit a dead weekend over the summer).


----------



## Mouseferatu (May 19, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> (assuming I don't do what I did with Buffy and watch an entire season over the course of a weekend - which may happen if I hit a dead weekend over the summer).




Heh. I'm right there with you.

I've borrowed seasons 1-7 of Stargate from a friend of mine. I've watched seasons 1-5 in about three weeks.

The advantage of working from home.


----------



## Orius (May 20, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> I really like being able to watch these eps a chunk at a time.  Having to wait for new eps week after week must have been torture, especially after a particularity juicy plot point was introduced.  My retention isn't great either so having seen the eps so close together really helps to piece together the story bits that I normally would have missed.




You have no idea.

PTEN had a really wacky schedule.  They'd air like 4 or 5 fresh episodes of B5, then the next 3 or 4 months would be all repeats.  Some of those seasons seemed to stretch on with no end in sight, yet each season only had something like 22 episodes each.  And there was no normal summer break either.  After about 5 months or so of repeats, they'd air like the final 3 episodes of one season, and then go right into the next season for about 3 or 4 episodes before yet another long stretch of repeats.  So there really was no summer cliffhangers like TV normally has.  It was weird.


----------



## Orius (May 20, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Yeah, 6 months sucks.  And it wasn't even between seasons, it was the middle of season 4.  That was also the same hiatus that we found out that there would be no season 5.  Crushing, to say the least.




Yeah, but that sounds like the usual case when TV shows get put oin hiatus shortly before cancellation.  B5 was different, it just seemed they'd air something like 2 repeats for every fresh episode.


----------



## Plane Sailing (May 22, 2005)

Orius said:
			
		

> You have no idea.
> 
> PTEN had a really wacky schedule.




I'm in the UK, and once they started airing a season we would get the whole season. Somehow we always started a season way after the US, but got the final four episodes way before the US (I was active in the B5 forum on Compuserve in those days. Heady times, being able to communicate with the writer of your favourite show!)

Cheers


----------



## LightPhoenix (May 22, 2005)

Orius said:
			
		

> Yeah, but that sounds like the usual case when TV shows get put oin hiatus shortly before cancellation. B5 was different, it just seemed they'd air something like 2 repeats for every fresh episode.




Actually, that was SFC's normal schedule.  They deliberately avoided showing new stuff during sweeps months, so their programs would draw better numbers.  That's why, for instance, there would be a gap from November to March, episodes from March to early May, and then a hiatus until June or August.


----------



## John Crichton (May 23, 2005)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> Tell us when you get to the last episode of season 2. I really want to talk about that one!



 Just finished Season 2.  Gah-yikes.

Within the span of 25 minutes it all came crashing down.  Stupid pilot and his dern curiosity.  Not that I blame him.

I should have seen the Earth/Centauri alliance coming from a mile away but for some reason I didn't. Totally blindsided me. When the Centauri warcruiser opened up on the station and the Narn crusier all I could do was spudder, "No, no, no, no. Somebody do something." Over and over.

And poor G'Kar.  He looked so defeated those last few episodes.

The Kosh/Vorlon reveal in the last few eps was nuts. I really liked the interrogator. I also liked how the assassination attempt forced Kosh's hand. It was well done and given just the right amount of time to boil before showing the audience what the big deal was.

In short, I loved it.  It left me satisfied while still keeping me begging for more.

I have Season 3 coming in the mail this week.  It can't get here fast enough.  

Note:  Title of thread updated.


----------



## John Crichton (May 23, 2005)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Actually, that was SFC's normal schedule. They deliberately avoided showing new stuff during sweeps months, so their programs would draw better numbers. That's why, for instance, there would be a gap from November to March, episodes from March to early May, and then a hiatus until June or August.



That's not entirely true.  You are right about SFC avoiding sweeps like the plague but Seasons 2 & 3 of Farscape both started up in late winter/early spring with the season finales happening about 2 months before.  Season 4 had its own twisted time-table.

*bleh*


----------



## Plane Sailing (May 23, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> When the Centauri warcruiser opened up on the station and the Narn crusier all I could do was spudder, "No, no, no, no. Somebody do something." Over and over.




This whole episode was one of the turning points in my addiction to the series. The sense of menace from the threatening Centauri cruiser, the bold play to enable the narn vessel to use the jumpgate, the crewman saying "they are targetting the narn cruiser... our fighters..." Bing Bing Bing "...and US". It ratchets up a notch more, is it going to go OK... then the energy spike and all hell breaks loose. The fact that the B5 weapon systems were seriously upgraded during GROPOS makes itself felt. 

Sheriden practicing his apology

The Centauri attempt on his life

- the whole thing just came across perfectly.


The other episode that I found completely striking was "Confessions and Lamentations". How many times in sci-fi has the doctor struggled against the disease and come up with the cure just in time? This was the first time I'd ever seen the doctor find the cure... and it *wasn't* in time. Too late. A race dead. Wow.

Would you believe me if I said that series 3 ratchets things up a notch again, and series 4 yet another notch?

You've got good times coming!


----------



## John Crichton (May 25, 2005)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> The other episode that I found completely striking was "Confessions and Lamentations". How many times in sci-fi has the doctor struggled against the disease and come up with the cure just in time? This was the first time I'd ever seen the doctor find the cure... and it *wasn't* in time. Too late. A race dead. Wow.



Yes, that was very cool.  I knew the series had some balls at that point.



			
				Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> Would you believe me if I said that series 3 ratchets things up a notch again, and series 4 yet another notch?



Yes.  Yes, I would.



			
				Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> You've got good times coming!



Sweet.


----------



## John Crichton (Jun 1, 2005)

Season 3 DVD update.

I spent the better part of Memorial Day watching B5.  Got up to where they solve the mystery of Babylon 4 and we find out who Valen really is.  And all I have to say is...

HOT DAMN!

Getting to see Sinclair and Sheridan share the spotlight for a few eps was a real treat.  G'Kar's character has totally changed and he has become one of my favorites.  The guy just lights up the screen.  Considering all that's happened, he has managed to keep a 'glass full' approach to things and has really made a difference.  I eagerly await his continued story...


----------



## Storm Raven (Jun 1, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Within the span of 25 minutes it all came crashing down.  Stupid pilot and his dern curiosity.  Not that I blame him.




JMS reportedly hated the character (I believe he says so much in the commentary for one of the Season 2 episodes). The "hotshot pilot" was mandated by the network, and JMS killed him off at his earliest possible opportunity. He made the character's death matter to the plot anyway, which is a mark of how well thought-out the series was.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Jun 1, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> JMS reportedly hated the character (I believe he says so much in the commentary for one of the Season 2 episodes). The "hotshot pilot" was mandated by the network, and JMS killed him off at his earliest possible opportunity. He made the character's death matter to the plot anyway, which is a mark of how well thought-out the series was.




Yeah, he does.  He says exactly that.  

Anyway I just wanted to chime in on how much I loved this show and how glad I am to hear a new fan digging the magic of B5.  I just need to find a cheap copy of Season 5 to complete the collection myself.  It was my least favorite season, but it had good stuff with Londo.  Seasons 1-4 were magic.  Yes I included season 1 in there!  I thought it was great.


----------



## Orius (Jun 1, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Season 3 DVD update.
> 
> I spent the better part of Memorial Day watching B5.  Got up to where they solve the mystery of Babylon 4 and we find out who Valen really is.  And all I have to say is...
> 
> HOT DAMN!




Told ya.  



> Getting to see Sinclair and Sheridan share the spotlight for a few eps was a real treat.  G'Kar's character has totally changed and he has become one of my favorites.  The guy just lights up the screen.  Considering all that's happened, he has managed to keep a 'glass full' approach to things and has really made a difference.  I eagerly await his continued story...




Both G'Kar and Londo get some great character development throughout the series; you've seen part of it already. 

There's some really good stuff ahead too, keep watching.


----------



## Orius (Jun 1, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> JMS reportedly hated the character (I believe he says so much in the commentary for one of the Season 2 episodes). The "hotshot pilot" was mandated by the network, and JMS killed him off at his earliest possible opportunity. He made the character's death matter to the plot anyway, which is a mark of how well thought-out the series was.




That would explain why the character showed up in very few episodes, even though he appeared in the opening credits.


----------



## John Crichton (Jun 2, 2005)

Orius said:
			
		

> Both G'Kar and Londo get some great character development throughout the series; you've seen part of it already.



I'm seeing it more and more.  Just started Season 4 and hit the 2nd ep.  They really start to hit the spotlight which is good considering how much has been built up between the two.



			
				Orius said:
			
		

> There's some really good stuff ahead too, keep watching.



Oh, I am.  Time to order Season 5 just in case I get some extra time...


----------



## John Crichton (Jun 2, 2005)

Update:  Title changed.

Time for some thoughts on Season 3.  

High points:

- Delenn's breaking of the Grey Counsel.
- Seeing the fleet of the White Star for the first time.  Blew my doors off.
- Londo and Vir's fate revealed.
- Delenn showing up at the very last second and talking down the EA cruisers just in time to save the now completely neutral Babylon 5, especially...
- "Only one human captain has ever survived battle with a Minbari  fleet. He is behind me. You are in front of me. If you value your lives,  be somewhere else."
- G'Kar's revelations.  All of them.  Narns rule.
- Sheridan & Sinclair get their mission on.
- Sinclair's fate.
- Londo & G'Kar taking care of business with Lord Refa intercut with the gospel singing.
- Lenier's cunning in battle.
- The whole story of B4.
- Sheriden's bold attack on the Shadows.
- That bastard Morden.

And probably my favorite part:
- "As of this moment, Babylon Five is seceding from the Earth Alliance."  

That whole speech was great.  I think I went a little numb in the middle of it.  

I'd come up with a few parts that i didn't like but it would be nitpicking.  I am really looking forward to watching the commentaries after the series is over so I don't get spoiled.


----------



## Staffan (Jun 2, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> - "Only one human captain has ever survived battle with a Minbari  fleet. He is behind me. You are in front of me. If you value your lives,  be somewhere else."
> - Londo & G'Kar taking care of business with Lord Refa intercut with the gospel singing.



I think these two are my favorite scenes from the entire show.


----------



## jonesy (Jun 2, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> - Sheridan & Sinclair get their mission on.



And with my favourite line of the season:
"The question of who stole Babylon 4 is the biggest mystery of the last decade. Now you are telling me that it was me?"
 



> - Londo & G'Kar taking care of business with Lord Refa intercut with the gospel singing.



I liked how right before that Londo goes to rescue Vir personally. Unarmed. *punch* Armed.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Jun 3, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Update:  Title changed.
> 
> - Londo & G'Kar taking care of business with Lord Refa intercut with the gospel singing.




That scene is pure magic.  Probably my favorite of the whole series.


----------



## TwistedBishop (Jun 4, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> That scene is pure magic.  Probably my favorite of the whole series.





I definitely agree.  It's hysterical and disturbing at the same time.


----------



## TwistedBishop (Jun 4, 2005)

This reminds me, now that you're in the third season and coming up on the fourth, there's something you may want to keep in mind.  TNT did several B5 movies, and some of them take place before, during, or after the series run.

The list goes, in chronological order:

In the Beginning - prequel movie to the series.  A lot of debate is based around when you should watch this film, before you see any of the show or after you've seen all of it.  Personally I think if you've seen War Without End already, it's fine to watch it now.  It's a great movie.

Thirdspace - more of a standalone episode, but a really fun one.  It takes place during the 5 year arc, as best as can be determined, between the 4th season episodes "The Illusion of Truth" and "Atonement".  It's the only movie to happen during the series run itself, and it may be nice to watch it during the spot it's supposed to occur during.

River of Souls - my least favorite of the movies.  Another stand-alone, this time dealing with a soul hunter.  Happens six months into 2063 (that's a ways after the show ends).

Call to Arms - big plot event movie.  I can't explain it without giving away spoilers.  It's a good one though.  Takes place in 2067, iirc.

They released a dvd movie pack of these films last year.  There's also a bit of a blacksheep movie, that takes place between River of Souls and Call to Arms, called Legend of the Rangers.  It only has one member of the B5 cast in it though, so it may not be of too much interest.  This isn't available in any form that I know of, in any case.


----------



## jonesy (Jun 4, 2005)

TwistedBishop said:
			
		

> Call to Arms - big plot event movie. I can't explain it without giving away spoilers.  It's a good one though.



Suffice to say that it sets the stage for the short-lived Crusade series. To be seen after you've seen all of B5.


----------



## Orius (Jun 5, 2005)

TwistedBishop said:
			
		

> This reminds me, now that you're in the third season and coming up on the fourth, there's something you may want to keep in mind.  TNT did several B5 movies, and some of them take place before, during, or after the series run.
> 
> The list goes, in chronological order:
> 
> In the Beginning - prequel movie to the series.  A lot of debate is based around when you should watch this film, before you see any of the show or after you've seen all of it.  Personally I think if you've seen War Without End already, it's fine to watch it now.  It's a great movie.




Actually, I think it would be best until after he watches the episode about Dukhat and how Delenn became a member of the Gray Council first.  In the Beginning relies on some plot points from that episode as well.  



> Call to Arms - big plot event movie.  I can't explain it without giving away spoilers.  It's a good one though.  Takes place in 2067, iirc.




As jonesy said, it's the prequel to Crusade.  In some ways in can be considered sort of a bridge between B5 and Crusade as it includes character from both series.

There's also The Gathering (IIRC), the TV movie that started off B5 and preceeded the first season by a year, both in the series and on TV.  I don't know if that's included with the season dvd, or somewhere else.


----------



## Orius (Jun 5, 2005)

Oh yeah, Lord Refa's end was one of the high points of season 3.  I like how he realizes too late he's fallen into Londo's trap and is helpless, and tries to run with the gospel quoir singing along in the background.  I liked how G'Kar watched his underlings beat him into a pulp like some mafia don before turining and walking away.

War Without End brought a great resolution to the B4 mystery from season 1.

Have you seen the final episode of Season 3 yet?  There's no way in hell I can discuss that one with out giving major spoilers.


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## TwistedBishop (Jun 5, 2005)

Orius said:
			
		

> Have you seen the final episode of Season 3 yet?  There's no way in hell I can discuss that one with out giving major spoilers.




Best season finale ever.


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## TwistedBishop (Jun 5, 2005)

Orius said:
			
		

> There's also The Gathering (IIRC), the TV movie that started off B5 and preceeded the first season by a year, both in the series and on TV.  I don't know if that's included with the season dvd, or somewhere else.




It's not on the Season 1 DVD set, but it is in the Movie Collection boxed set with the above-mentioned films.  I never had much love for The Gathering, for a lot of the same reasons Season 1 as a whole doesn't sit well with me:  the look and style to the show hadn't reached where it needed to be yet.


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## John Crichton (Jun 5, 2005)

Orius said:
			
		

> Have you seen the final episode of Season 3 yet? There's no way in hell I can discuss that one with out giving major spoilers.



Yup.  I'm on disc 2 of Season 4 right now.


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## Staffan (Jun 5, 2005)

TwistedBishop said:
			
		

> Best season finale ever.



 Actually, I'd put Becoming (Buffy season 2) above Z'ha'dum, when it comes to "best season finales". But yeah, it's up there.


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## Orius (Jun 5, 2005)

TwistedBishop said:
			
		

> It's not on the Season 1 DVD set, but it is in the Movie Collection boxed set with the above-mentioned films.  I never had much love for The Gathering, for a lot of the same reasons Season 1 as a whole doesn't sit well with me:  the look and style to the show hadn't reached where it needed to be yet.




Oh for sure.  I really didn't watch the Gathering when it first aired, as it seemed cheesy and rather uninspired.  I finally did get hooked on B5 near the end of the first season where JMS started ramping things up with the Great Machine, B4, and the Shadows.  Anyway, the Gathering serves as a sort of introduction to some of the main characters, but doesn't seem to have any major plot point that make it a must see.  The makeup in the Gathering is also inferior to what was used in the show itself.


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## Staffan (Jun 6, 2005)

Orius said:
			
		

> Oh for sure.  I really didn't watch the Gathering when it first aired, as it seemed cheesy and rather uninspired.  I finally did get hooked on B5 near the end of the first season where JMS started ramping things up with the Great Machine, B4, and the Shadows.  Anyway, the Gathering serves as a sort of introduction to some of the main characters, but doesn't seem to have any major plot point that make it a must see.  The makeup in the Gathering is also inferior to what was used in the show itself.



Some important things that appear in the pilot:

1. Kosh for some reason wanting to greet Sinclair outside of his encounter suit (otherwise they couldn't have gotten the patch on him).
2. Lyta making telepathic contact with Kosh.
3. Someone in the station staff being a traitor (though this was changed a bit on account of the actress in question leaving).
4. The dying Minbari gasping out to Sinclair "There's a hole in your mind", putting him on the path to investigating his missing 24 hours.
5. Narns not having any teeps, and being very interested in getting genetic material from one.

Also, it was a happy coincidence that both the actors of characters who saw Kosh without his suit (Dr. Kyle and Lyta) left the show before season 1, which in turn meant that both the characters had been recalled to Earth.

As for makeup... in at least one case, Delenn's, that was due to a change in plans. Originally, JMS had planned to make Delenn a male Minbari (and alter her voice in post-production), which is why she has male-looking makeup. This would have made the Chrysalis change even more impressive. However, it turned out that changing the voice didn't work out very well, so they scrapped that idea, and made her more female-looking for the series.


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## wingsandsword (Jun 6, 2005)

Staffan said:
			
		

> 3. Someone in the station staff being a traitor (though this was changed a bit on account of the actress in question leaving).



You probably know this, but to make it clear to people who might not know: (and since this all happens well before the season 4 spoiler limit on this thread)

Lieutenant Commander Takashima was the traitor.  She arranged for the breach of security that let the assassin get to Kosh, and she was originally the person who was supposed to shoot Garibaldi in the back at the end of Season 1 to protect Clark's assassination of President Santiago.

Takashima was replaced by Ivanova, but that part of the character arc didn't follow over.  JMS put out a few red herrings along the way, wanting to make online fans who knew that Takashima was a traitor and Ivanova was her replacement think that she would betray B5 at some point, but didn't to keep fans on their toes.

Personally, I think it's better this way.  Having a main character be the traitor at the end of Season 1 would have been nice, but Ivanova grew to be a favorite character of many in B5 and for all the betrayals, assasinations, conspiracies, double-crosses, and secret alliances in B5, Ivanova shooting Garibaldi just didn't sound right with how it all finally turned out (I wish Talia hadn't left the series either, the relationship between her and Talia and Talia's plot arc with the Ironheart gift were pretty cool).  However, Kosh having the Vicker recording of Talia's brain and Lyta having seen the true form of a Vorlon in the pilot did make her being given those powers by the Vorlons actually make sense.


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## Orius (Jun 9, 2005)

Staffan said:
			
		

> Some important things that appear in the pilot:
> 
> 1. Kosh for some reason wanting to greet Sinclair outside of his encounter suit (otherwise they couldn't have gotten the patch on him).
> 2. Lyta making telepathic contact with Kosh.
> ...




Most of those points were later brought up in the series itself.  The movie does have some importance, but I didn't see it until it was rebroadcast after Season 4, and not seeing it didn't lessen my understanding of the overall arc.



> Also, it was a happy coincidence that both the actors of characters who saw Kosh without his suit (Dr. Kyle and Lyta) left the show before season 1, which in turn meant that both the characters had been recalled to Earth.




In the case of Lyta, it was actually beneficial for JMS, as it helped to contribute to her storyline. 



> As for makeup... in at least one case, Delenn's, that was due to a change in plans. Originally, JMS had planned to make Delenn a male Minbari (and alter her voice in post-production), which is why she has male-looking makeup. This would have made the Chrysalis change even more impressive. However, it turned out that changing the voice didn't work out very well, so they scrapped that idea, and made her more female-looking for the series.




Yes, I've read about that, although I didn't know it at the time.  However, the bone headpiece in the movie looks like it's about to fall off.  That's what I was commenting on.  They did a good job of refining both Delenn's and G'Kar's makeup in the series.  Even Londo's hair in pilot movie looks somewhat ragged, and is once again improved upon in the series.


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## Orius (Jun 9, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> You probably know this, but to make it clear to people who might not know: (and since this all happens well before the season 4 spoiler limit on this thread)
> 
> Lieutenant Commander Takashima was the traitor.  She arranged for the breach of security that let the assassin get to Kosh, and she was originally the person who was supposed to shoot Garibaldi in the back at the end of Season 1 to protect Clark's assassination of President Santiago.
> 
> Takashima was replaced by Ivanova, but that part of the character arc didn't follow over.  JMS put out a few red herrings along the way, wanting to make online fans who knew that Takashima was a traitor and Ivanova was her replacement think that she would betray B5 at some point, but didn't to keep fans on their toes.




I've been reading about that too.  Having the original betrayal might have been an interesting addition to the overall arc, but Ivanova was a *much* more interesting character.  B5 wouldn't have been the same without her.


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## Plane Sailing (Jun 9, 2005)

Orius said:
			
		

> Even Londo's hair in pilot movie looks somewhat ragged, and is once again improved upon in the series.




It is interesting to track the changes in Londos hair throughout B5, since it very much reflects his position and self esteem(porbably not right expression?). 

I love the way that at the outset in year 1 G'Kar is the agressor and Londo is the downtrodden, washed-up, powerless one. Gradually we see a real shift in their positions, and ultimately even a swap.

Anyone who started with season one probably hated G'Kar and felt sorry for Londo... and then feelings start to change as the series progressed. Great writing IMO.

Cheers


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## Mouseferatu (Jun 11, 2005)

Staffan said:
			
		

> 1. Kosh for some reason wanting to greet Sinclair outside of his encounter suit (otherwise they couldn't have gotten the patch on him).




Not to nitpick an otherwise spot on analysis, but I'm pretty sure JMS has said that Kosh _was_ wearing his encounter suit when this happened. The poison is simply something the suit wasn't designed to keep out.

Yeah, it sounded a bit weird to me, too. But I'm about 99.44% sure it's what was said.


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## TwistedBishop (Jun 11, 2005)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Not to nitpick an otherwise spot on analysis, but I'm pretty sure JMS has said that Kosh _was_ wearing his encounter suit when this happened. The poison is simply something the suit wasn't designed to keep out.




Spoilers are below, if the OP hasn't seen The Gathering yet.



Sort of yes and no on the above.

He doesn't fully leave the suit, but what you see is a Vorlon "hand" come out to shake Sinclair's, which the fake Sinclair puts a poison skin-tab on.  It was the first hint that the Vorlons didn't really need their encounter suits to survive, if they could just open access hatches at will.


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## Orius (Jun 12, 2005)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> It is interesting to track the changes in Londos hair throughout B5, since it very much reflects his position and self esteem(porbably not right expression?).
> 
> I love the way that at the outset in year 1 G'Kar is the agressor and Londo is the downtrodden, washed-up, powerless one. Gradually we see a real shift in their positions, and ultimately even a swap.
> 
> Anyone who started with season one probably hated G'Kar and felt sorry for Londo... and then feelings start to change as the series progressed. Great writing IMO.




Londo is a tragic character.  He starts out seemingly little more than a comic buffoon, where G'Kar and really all the Narns as a whole are aggressive, obsessed with vengeance and really not all that sympathetic.

Then Londo makes that fateful, Faustian pact with the Shadows.

And all hell breaks loose.

Londo digs himself in deeper and deeper, knowing what he's doing is wrong, but believing it's still what must be done.  He slowly realizes that Refa and his cadre don't have quite the same goals he does, and he tries desperately to fix the damage he did but in the end it all turns out for the worse for him (as we see in the future scenes in War Without End).

G'Kar on the other hand does fight, but comes to realize the futility of revenge.  He seems like little more than a warmonger at the beginning of the series, but after Narn is brutally defeated and conquered, he gradually becomes a more sympathetic character.  I'd say more, but it would involve events in the 4th season, and I don't know how far into it the original poster has gone.


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## John Crichton (Jun 12, 2005)

Orius said:
			
		

> I'd say more, but it would involve events in the 4th season, and I don't know how far into it the original poster has gone.



I just finished the first ep where Sheridan is being tortured/interrogated.

Once the Yankee game is over I'll probably polish off Season 4.


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## TwistedBishop (Jun 12, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> I just finished the first ep where Sheridan is being tortured/interrogated.





That's where Season 4 was supposed to end.  Would have been a terrific cliffhanger.


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## John Crichton (Jun 13, 2005)

TwistedBishop said:
			
		

> That's where Season 4 was supposed to end.  Would have been a terrific cliffhanger.



 I can see why.  It's fantastic stuff.

Actually, I've seen this episode before.  It was the only episode of the show I ever watched while it was on the air.  I believe I was sick that day in bed and couldn't find anything else to watch.  Loved the ep but never tried to get into the show because I knew there was a plot in there that I wouldn't understand unless I got to see it from the start.

DVD made that possible.


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## John Crichton (Jun 13, 2005)

Okay, now I'm done with Season 4. Thread title updated.

They really crammed alot into that season.  I know that the story was supposed to spread out into 2 seasons so it did seem a bit rushed.  Kinda like watching Farscape: Peacekeeper Wars where they stuffed 22 eps into 4 hours, but not as bad.

Overall - Great stuff.  I just finished and there are too many cool moments running through my head.  Watched the last 6 eps consecutively which really gave it a cinematic feel.  I'm thinking about starting up a thread just on the finale (covering a million years!?!?!).

I'm not trying to figure out which season I liked the most out of 3 & 4.  Season 5 is coming in later this week/early next.


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## KenM (Jun 13, 2005)

There was a bunch of stuff that was suposted to go into season 5 that got pushed into season 4. The reason for this was JMS did not find out intil the very last possible moment if there was going to be a season 5, so he had to wrap up most of the major plot threads in season 4.


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## Plane Sailing (Jun 13, 2005)

I remember the shock at seeing the earthforce 'special' ships with a bit of 'oh no', plus Ivanovas fatal injury, and Marcus' response and how that all panned out.

I remember the chill at President Clarkes 'scorched earth' message and the sense of desperation, as well as the strange effect of earth forces now fighting alongside minbari in an assault on earth.

I didn't enjoy the Garibaldi arc much at the time, although I was OK with how it turned out at the end.

I really enjoyed every scene with Lyta Alexander. 

I also really enjoyed the final scene of season 4, I thought it worked well and to me that is always the 'true' end of the series (even though I know it isn't really).

BTW, what did you think of the resolution of the shadow war? I was a little disappointed that it turned out to be simply law vs chaos with the vorlons and shadows as opposing philosophies. When first introduced it had looked as though the Shadows were an earlier order than the Vorlons, with a more mysterious and sinister agenda. In the end it turned out that they were no worse than the alien race that Ivanova had diplomatic relations with (and had to seal the agreement by having 'sex'). I don't remember which episode that was in, but those aliens had pretty much the same 'evolution to the nth degree' philosophy.

Your take on Season 5 will be interesting

Cheers


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## Orius (Jun 14, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> I just finished the first ep where Sheridan is being tortured/interrogated.




Oh, well then you're waaay ahead of where I thought you might be.



> Once the Yankee game is over I'll probably polish off Season 4.




Yankees?   Arrg, B5 is the reason I hate the Yankees in the first place.

Back when the show was on the air around here, the local Fox affiliate aired the show in syndication.  Unfortunately, near the end of Season 3, Fox was broadcasting the World Series playoffs or something around the same time.  This goes back to the wonky airing schedule I mentiioned earlier.  In any case, one of the playoff games was on earlier in the evening before B5 game on.  The game went into extra innings (something like 12 innings or so), and ran over the alloted time.  So instead of preempting B5 by 40 minutes, they joined the episode already in progress (and made sure to air all the commercial first).  This episode was the one where Sheridan takes his fleet and kicks the Shadows' ass right before going off to Z'ha'dum.  Needless to say I was quite pissed.  Damn Yankees.  Though I suppose the management at the local TV station were more to blame; the workers probably wanted to go home for the night rather than sticking around another 40 minutes.

I'm certainly glad they didn't pull that crap for the next episode.


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## Orius (Jun 14, 2005)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> BTW, what did you think of the resolution of the shadow war? I was a little disappointed that it turned out to be simply law vs chaos with the vorlons and shadows as opposing philosophies. When first introduced it had looked as though the Shadows were an earlier order than the Vorlons, with a more mysterious and sinister agenda. In the end it turned out that they were no worse than the alien race that Ivanova had diplomatic relations with (and had to seal the agreement by having 'sex').




Actually, it didn't bother me that much.  What's interesting though, is that while the Vorlons are lawful, they're bigger liars than the Shadows.  Think about it.  They don't appear in their true form, but rather they appear how the want the younger races to percieve them.  And they lie about the whole purpose of the Shadows and Vorlons too.  The two of them are supposed to be guiding the development of the younger races, yet the Vorlons don't even bother to mention that fact.  They spin some story about the Shadows being an ancient enemy the keeps trying to conquer the galaxy.  

What I wonder is exactly what the Shadows were _really_ up to.  They're helping Earth and the Centauri out in the series, but they're far from benevolent.  I can't believe they simply wouldn't give their aid to the various younger races without some price attached (of course, the Centauri do pay a fairly terrible price for taking the help of the Shadows and then later stabbing them in the back).   I have my own thoughts about this.

There are other younger races who've sided with the Shadows in the past, in particular the Drakh.  However, they don't interact with the rest of the galaxy (except possibly as living components to Shadow ships), until after the Shadows leave.  I got the impression that the Drakh were sort of opposites of the Minbari — where the Minbari long ago sided with the Vorlons, the Drakh obviously seem to have sided with the Shadows but with one important exception.  The Vorlons let Minbari society develop on its own, where the Drakh seem to have been utterly dominated by the Shadows.  Is that what the Shadows' ultimate price for Earth and the Centauri could have been?  Some sort of enslavement?  

And that other race was called the Lumati.


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## LightPhoenix (Jun 14, 2005)

While there are a number of issues I have with the fifth season (which I won't mention until JC has finished it, because of spoilers), I also think it contains a number of great storylines and character development.  In particular, G'Kar and Londo continue to shine.  Zack, Lyta, Lennier, Vir, and Garibaldi all get some great development.  I wonder how much of this would have taken place in the non-rushed season five, as a good deal of it only works post-Shadow War.

Also, I'm a much bigger fan of Objects at Rest than Sleeping In Light, as far as endings go.  In fact, I pretty much choose to ignore the last fifteen minutes of SIL with regards to B5 canon.


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