# Sell Me on OSE



## Reynard (Jan 4, 2022)

Alright, people really seem to love OSE as an alternative to B/X and other early versions of the game and retroclones. If you are one of those people, tell me what I should get OSE versus using my Rules Cyclopedia or my old B/X books? Also, tell me about the much lauded support for OSE, especially support in the weird fantasy/genre mashup space, if it exists.

Note that this isn't going to be the hardest sell in the world. I have some extra Christmas money, but I want to know why folks love it so much.


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## Ralif Redhammer (Jan 4, 2022)

If you're looking for a B/X experience with OSE, I think what sells it is that it takes the experience you remember and gives it to you, rather than what the B/X books actually were. It is smooth, streamlined, well-organized. Not saying ill of the B/X books, but OSE is a refinement in presentation and organization. Someone, I can't remember who, described OSE as being like a website with a good GUI/user experience, and that fits.

Also, it's got a solid binding and is not decades old, like the original books. And the art is gorgeous! The works by Pauliina Hannuniemi are particular favorites of mine:


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## Retreater (Jan 4, 2022)

The Advanced Fantasy supplements add options not present in B/X - more classes, separate race from class, should that seem appealing to you. 
The zine Planar Compass adds psionics and interplanar travel - so that might add to your weird fantasy mashup. 
However, there is much more in the Rules Compendium: higher levels, more monsters, warfare, strongholds, a campaign setting, etc. OSE looks better, has better organization (building off modern layout technology). That said, OSE is basically the same game as B/X (only with rules for Ascending AC and the Advanced options I mentioned above). It's just been given a little more room to breathe with layout and art.


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## darjr (Jan 4, 2022)

Yea, I gotta try it. Was thinking of using Troika or Into the Odd for UVG but I see people using this.


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## Monayuris (Jan 4, 2022)

The rules are broken down into succinct bullet points that makes referencing easy and quick. I think it is better organized than the original Basic/Expert books (which can have some quirks to finding stuff if you are used to modern games).

You can check out the basic rules for free, to get a clearer picture of the format, here: Old-School Essentials: Basic Rules - Necrotic Gnome | Old-School Essentials | DriveThruRPG.com

It is 100% faithful to B/X which is also nice, if I want to run from a hard copy I don't have to use my original B/X books.

The online SRD is also very useful: OSE SRD

Also online generators for treasure, encounters, spell books and magic items: OSE Generators

In general it gives me classic B/X rules with all the module and zine support that implies, along with a ton of additional online tools. B/X is my favorite version of D&D and Old School Essentials is the best modern presentation of those original rules.


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## The Hierophant (Jan 5, 2022)

Which books do I need to get into OSE, the hard copies seem confusing.


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## Yora (Jan 5, 2022)

Classic Fantasy Rules Tome is everything in one book, except for the Advanced Options.


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## iPwnedMSCS (Jan 5, 2022)

And if you want the advanced options the easiest way is to get the Advanced Fantasy Player's  Tome and Advanced Fantasy Referee's Tome.

Those two will give you all the rules in the Classic Fantasy Rules Tome as well as the advanced material. If you'd rather start with the classic tome and add on the advanced stuff later, you can grab the four smaller advanced fantasy books without duplicating content.


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## Ralif Redhammer (Jan 5, 2022)

Troika is also a good one. I'd say that Troika is better if you want a distinctly non-D&D, much weirder experience more indebted to Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun and Vance's Dying Earth beyond just the magic system. OSE provides a super-streamlined, clean experience, but it's (generally speaking) very much a D&D-like (or should that be "D&D-light?") experience.



darjr said:


> Yea, I gotta try it. Was thinking of using Troika or Into the Odd for UVG but I see people using this.


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## Mannahnin (Jan 5, 2022)

For the core books it's mostly just organization and presentation.  The rules are identical to B/X (with the addition of ascending AC as an optional rule), but are laid out in really convenient single page or two-facing-pages format, where you virtually never have to flip multiple places to read the rules on a given concept.  It's solid information design.  The books have lovely new art and high production values.

I do also like what they did with new classes in the Advanced Fantasy rules, retro-fitting additional options from other editions (like Half Elves, Half Orcs, Gnomes, Knights, Assassins, Acrobats, and Druids) into a B/X race-as-class format.  As well as offering other rules from AD&D (like M-U & Elf spell acquisition other than just from gaining a level) in clear, simple form.

If you prefer the original B/X art, PDFs are thankfully cheap as heck, but unfortunately those aren't sold print on demand yet, and used copies do tend to have some mileage on them.  Thankfully they're common enough that prices for them aren't crazy yet.  I picked up another copy of each book recently.


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## Voadam (Jan 6, 2022)

Reynard said:


> Also, tell me about the much lauded support for OSE, especially support in the weird fantasy/genre mashup space, if it exists.




Necrotic Gnome has their Dolmenwood stuff which is OSE weird fantasy mythic dark forest.

What I've read of it I have enjoyed. Nice spin on druids.


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## Aldarc (Jan 6, 2022)

Reynard said:


> Alright, people really seem to love OSE as an alternative to B/X and other early versions of the game and retroclones. If you are one of those people, tell me what I should get OSE versus using my Rules Cyclopedia or my old B/X books? Also, tell me about the much lauded support for OSE, especially support in the weird fantasy/genre mashup space, if it exists.
> 
> Note that this isn't going to be the hardest sell in the world. I have some extra Christmas money, but I want to know why folks love it so much.



Some highlights: 
** B/X* but with a modern, easier-to-read design layout 
** Rules Support:* the game has the B/X materials but also new races and classes plus ascending AC (for those who prefer it) 
** Adventure Support: *Necrotic Gnome wrote a number of new adventures for OSE. 
** Setting Support:* Necrotic Gnome has their own setting for OSE with setting-appropriate races/classes: Dolmenwood. 
** Zine Support: *Necrotic Gnome has their own zine for OSE that publishes setting, adventure, and additional GM materials. 

OSE has essentially become the new gold standard for B/X retroclone play.


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## Voadam (Jan 6, 2022)

Third party publishers seem to now be saying compatible with OSE whereas it used to be Labyrinth Lord for identifying OGL B/X rules design for new adventures and such.


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## darjr (Jan 6, 2022)

OSE is kinda the new old basic. If you know what I mean. In a good way.

Did anyone else get notice of the new Kickstarter?


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## TwoSix (Jan 6, 2022)

darjr said:


> OSE is kinda the new old basic. If you know what I mean. In a good way.
> 
> Did anyone else get notice of the new Kickstarter?



I didn't, but it looks like they're doing a Kickstarter of the box sets starting next month.  Gotta get in on that one.


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## Voadam (Jan 6, 2022)

OSE PDFs on Drivethru. 

Planar Compass looks like it could be a weird fantasy Astral Sea adaptation.

Night Land bills itself as a weird fantasy setting.


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## Tales and Chronicles (Jan 6, 2022)

TwoSix said:


> I didn't, but it looks like they're doing a Kickstarter of the box sets starting next month.  Gotta get in on that one.



Yeah, I think I'll jump in on this one too. 

Exalted funeral is always out of stock for the boxes, and the used ones of the second-hand market are up to 300 CAD$.


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## mach1.9pants (Jan 6, 2022)

I take it those of us who got in the first kickstarter won't have anything from this second one, apart from that is now two box sets, rather than one (I got all the advanced add ons)


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## Malmuria (Jan 6, 2022)

For anyone in the states, PSA that Exalted Funeral has the Advanced players and referee tome back in stock









						Old-School Essentials Advanced Fantasy Player's Tome
					

Complete Advanced Fantasy Player's Guide The Advanced Fantasy Player's Tome is a complete player's guide to Old-School Essentials Advanced Fantasy games, with the following content: Character options: 22 classic classes (acrobat, assassin, barbarian, bard, cleric, drow, druid, duergar, dwarf...




					www.exaltedfuneral.com


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## reelo (Jan 6, 2022)

The Hierophant said:


> Which books do I need to get into OSE, the hard copies seem confusing.



If you want PURE BX, you need the "Classic Fantasy Rules Tome" (or the "Classic Fantasy Game Set" 

If you want BX with some advanced options, you need the "Advanced Fantasy Player's Tome" AND "Advanced Fantasy Referee's Tome" (or the "Classic Fantasy Game Set" PLUS the "Advanced Expansion Set")

Imho, the 2 "Advanced" Tomes offer the best bamg for the buck in terms of content and options.

I absolutely love all the stuff Gavin Norman releases. The upcoming Dolmenwood setting (to which—as a Patreon supporter—I am privy already) is absolutely stellar stuff, and I'm sure the 5E crowd will want a conversion, but I think that will be very difficult, considering the custom classes/races as well as the restrictions on "standard" classes/races.


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## schneeland (Jan 6, 2022)

reelo said:


> I absolutely love all the stuff Gavin Norman releases. The upcoming Dolmenwood setting (to which—as a Patreon supporter—I am privy already) is absolutely stellar stuff, and I'm sure the 5E crowd will want a conversion, but I think that will be very difficult, considering the custom classes/races as well as the restrictions on "standard" classes/races.



I remember there was talk about a 5e version once the B/X version is done, but that was at least a year back (even before the Patreon started). Was that dropped in the meantime? (I personally plan to use Dolmenwood with OSE, but I guess there would be people here interested in the conversion)


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## Voadam (Jan 6, 2022)

schneeland said:


> I remember there was talk about a 5e version once the B/X version is done, but that was at least a year back (even before the Patreon started). Was that dropped in the meantime? (I personally plan to use Dolmenwood with OSE, but I guess there would be people here interested in the conversion)



That would be nice, I enjoy Dolmenwood and B/X OSE stuff but 5e is my system of choice currently and a 5e Weird Fantasy Dark Mythic Wood setting would be good.


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## reelo (Jan 7, 2022)

Voadam said:


> That would be nice, I enjoy Dolmenwood and B/X OSE stuff but 5e is my system of choice currently and a 5e Weird Fantasy Dark Mythic Wood setting would be good.



The power-level and tone is just too dissimilar. To give you an idea of what _I_ would do to adapt it to 5E:
Races allowed: humans.
New races: Dolmenwood elf, moss dwarf, grimalkin (tabaxi), woodgrue (goblin).
Classes allowed: Cleric, Fighter, Wizard, Thief, Bard, Paladin, Ranger.
Then I would slash Aracne and Divine spell lists in half, removing all "utility spells" and leaving only the most basic ones. Much of the charm of Dolmenwood involves wilderness travel, survival, and discovery, so stuff like Goodberry, Tiny Hut, as well as items like bags of holding etc, completely eliminate those things.


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## Aldarc (Jan 7, 2022)

Voadam said:


> Necrotic Gnome has their Dolmenwood stuff which is OSE weird fantasy mythic dark forest.
> 
> What I've read of it I have enjoyed. Nice spin on druids.



Genre-wise, Dolmenwood is a fantastic setting that is right up my alley, particularly as a fan of smaller-scale grounded settings, but there are some details about the setting that I find a bit "cringe," such as its witches. I still recommend it and look forward to its Kickstarter, but these are the sort of things that I would definitely change as I can imagine a fair number of my players being turned off by it.


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## reelo (Jan 7, 2022)

Aldarc said:


> Genre-wise, Dolmenwood is a fantastic setting that is right up my alley, particularly as a fan of smaller-scale grounded settings, but there are some details about the setting that I find a bit "cringe," such as its witches. I still recommend it and look forward to its Kickstarter, but these are the sort of things that I would definitely change as I can imagine a fair number of my players being turned off by it.



What's wrong with Dolmenwood witches?


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## Reynard (Jan 7, 2022)

reelo said:


> What's wrong with Dolmenwood witches?



Not speeking for @Aldarc but a quick look at the primer suggests Dolemnwood embraces some older tropes about witches -- at least as people see them (not necessarily as they are). Some folks don't want that kind of trope based worldbuilding to remain dominant.


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## Aldarc (Jan 7, 2022)

reelo said:


> What's wrong with Dolmenwood witches?



My partner and I find the whole otherworldly patrons feeding on witches' menstrual blood and sexual energy thing to be cringy.


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## Reynard (Jan 7, 2022)

Aldarc said:


> My partner and I find the whole otherworldly patrons feeding on witches' menstrual blood and sexual energy thing to be cringy.



I didn't even get that far. So edge...
Oof.


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## reelo (Jan 7, 2022)

Aldarc said:


> My partner and I find the whole otherworldly patrons feeding on witches' menstrual blood and sexual energy thing to be cringy.



Ah yes, I just re-read the faction write-up, I see what you mean. Well, it's something that doesn't really need to come up during gameplay, the witches are still one of the major factions and source of intrigue in Dolmenwood. How and why they get their powers can (more or less easily) be changed, I guess.
Dolmenwood being largely based on folk-horror and fairytale-weirdness, some things like these are to be expected. I suppose it's a conscious decision and deliberate choice.


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## Reynard (Jan 7, 2022)

reelo said:


> Ah yes, I just re-read the faction write-up, I see what you mean. Well, it's something that doesn't really need to come up during gameplay, the witches are still one of the major factions and source of intrigue in Dolmenwood. How and why they get their powers can (more or less easily) be changed, I guess.
> Dolmenwood being largely based on folk-horror and fairytale-weirdness, some things like these are to be expected. * I suppose it's a conscious decision and deliberate choice.*



Emphasis mine. That's the part that makes it suspect: traditional or not, it's problematic and could easily have been changed by the author. Since it wasn't, the author is telling us they prefer these sorts of tropes in their world building, so expect more like it.


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## reelo (Jan 7, 2022)

Reynard said:


> Emphasis mine. That's the part that makes it suspect: traditional or not, it's problematic and could easily have been changed by the author. Since it wasn't, the author is telling us they prefer these sorts of tropes in their world building, so expect more like it.



I wouldn't quite say "prefer" but rather "accept for what they are". The setting is, despite being very whimsy, quite mature and morally ambiguous.


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## Reynard (Jan 7, 2022)

reelo said:


> I wouldn't quite say "prefer" but rather "accept for what they are". The setting is, despite being very whimsy, quite mature and morally ambiguous.



The author literally can't "accept [things] for what they are" because they, by definition, determine what things are. An author isn't bound by some pre-exsiting trope; they decide whether to include it or not. This author chose to do so, and therefore it is likely they will do so throughout the work. Of course that's their right but they shouldn't be surprised if some people decide to reject the work out of hand because they find those tropes problematic. There are a million ways to do "witches" without leaning into "women as either monsters or sex objects" trope.


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## Aldarc (Jan 7, 2022)

reelo said:


> Ah yes, I just re-read the faction write-up, I see what you mean. Well, it's something that doesn't really need to come up during gameplay, the witches are still one of the major factions and source of intrigue in Dolmenwood. How and why they get their powers can (more or less easily) be changed, I guess.
> Dolmenwood being largely based on folk-horror and fairytale-weirdness, some things like these are to be expected. I suppose it's a conscious decision and deliberate choice.



When my partner saw this, they said (to the effect of), "This is the sort of writing about women that screams 'THIS SETTING WAS WRITTEN BY A CIS DUDE!'" 

I still overall find a lot to like about Dolmenwood, such as its more localized dark fairytale Europe feel. This world-building detail, however minor, was a bit off-putting of a design choice. Also this is no way detracts from my recommendation of OSE.


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## reelo (Jan 7, 2022)

Aldarc said:


> When my partner saw this, they said (to the effect of), "This is the sort of writing about women that screams 'THIS SETTING WAS WRITTEN BY A CIS DUDE!'"




In Gavin's defense, the setting has some (influential!) LGB NPCs, genderfluid entities, the interior and exterior art features lots of female artists, so in general I think he's aware of cultural sensitivities. But over here in Europe the whole discourse is a lot less, shall we say, "hysterical", and more rational and grounded.


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## bennet (Jan 7, 2022)

wh


Aldarc said:


> When my partner saw this, they said (to the effect of), "This is the sort of writing about women that screams 'THIS SETTING WAS WRITTEN BY A CIS DUDE!'"
> 
> I still overall find a lot to like about Dolmenwood, such as its more localized dark fairytale Europe feel. This world-building detail, however minor, was a bit off-putting of a design choice. Also this is no way detracts from my recommendation of OSE.



why does everything have to turn into a gender based attack?  Its the same with college students I know today, all they talk about is how bi they are (with never having had sex) and how bad cis white males are (who often have done more bi things than they even dreamed of..).   

can't we leave the gender politics out for a change?  enworld is just turning into a naughty word storm of gender and race politics.  that orcs thread being going on for 1000 pages now.


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## Reynard (Jan 7, 2022)

bennet said:


> wh
> 
> why does everything have to turn into a gender based attack?



Maybe read it again:

A woman said, "This is the sort of writing about women that screams "THIS SETTING WAS WRITTEN BY A CIS DUDE!"

It is important to listen when people tell you how they feel about how they are being treated, particularly by institutions (including small press publishing companies). I don't want to put words in @Aldarc 's wife's mouth, but it sound to me like she felt frustrated with the use of the "women evil" trope as well as felt excluded by the component. That's the kind of things we -- creators and community -- should be aware of. Again, that doesn't mean it isn't "allowed" but it does mean that you don't get to include it -- in your book or at your table -- and then be surprised when some people decide your game isn't the kind of thing they want to engage in or support.


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## Aldarc (Jan 7, 2022)

reelo said:


> In Gavin's defense, the setting has some (influential!) LGB NPCs, genderfluid entities, the interior and exterior art features lots of female artists, so in general I think he's aware of cultural sensitivities. *But over here in Europe* *the whole discourse is a lot less, shall we say, "hysterical", and more rational and grounded.*



You have spoken on Gavin's defense, but now who will speak on yours? Both my partner and I are "over here in Europe" - Austria to be precise - and I am not sure if I necessarily agree with your characterization of the differences in discourse. IMHO, your defense of the author and setting would have been FAR BETTER OFF without the last sentence. I feel you have done more to harm than help your cause.


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## reelo (Jan 7, 2022)

Aldarc said:


> You have spoken on Gavin's defense, but now who will speak on yours? Both my partner and I are "over here in Europe" - Austria to be precise - and I am not sure if I necessarily agree with your characterization of the differences in discourse. IMHO, your defense of the author and setting would have been FAR BETTER OFF without the last sentence. I feel you have done more to harm than help your cause.




If that is so, let me extend my sincere apologies. It was certainly not my intention. All I can say regarding the faction of the Dolmenwood witches is, that they are most certainly not an evil faction. All major factions (7, iirc) considered, the witches are Neutral. They have their own motives and intrigues. You could maybe liken them to Dune's Bene Gesserit in terms of morality.


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## reelo (Jan 7, 2022)

bennet said:


> Can't we leave the gender politics out for a change? enworld is just turning into a naughty word storm of gender and race politics. that orcs thread being going on for 1000 pages now.




No, I think the subject matter is important enough to be discussed when it comes up. I might be moderate in my approach, and certainly less zealous than younger generations when it comes to taking action (read: I prefer using a scalpel rather than a sledgehammer) but I consider myself on the left side of politics and as such acknowledge the importance of the matter.


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## Umbran (Jan 7, 2022)

bennet said:


> can't we leave the gender politics out for a change?



*Mod Note:*

So, having not been in the thread before, you step in and gripe about how others were having a perfectly reasonable discussion?

Here's a hint - if you don't want to see discussions about gender representation in games, don't _willfully insert yourself_ into discussions about it.

Go find a thread that doesn't set you off so, as you won't be posting in this one any further.


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## Malmuria (Jan 7, 2022)

Aldarc said:


> I *still overall find a lot to like* about Dolmenwood, such as its more localized dark fairytale Europe feel. This world-building detail, *however minor,* was a bit off-putting of a design choice. Also *this is no way detracts* from my recommendation of OSE.






bennet said:


> why does everything have to turn into a gender based attack?



@Aldarc does not seem to be attacking OSE, but rather giving it a recommendation while noting, for a prospective buyer, one small aspect of the setting that they found to be off-putting.  And it might be off-putting on any number of accounts; if I were playing OSE with my nephew, for example, I would likely exclude that bit of setting detail.


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## Malmuria (Jan 7, 2022)

Along these lines, Gavin Norman rewrote the intro to Winter's Daughter to make it less...intense.  I much prefer the new intro to the adventure, especially as it is a good starting point or one shot for OSE









						Winter's Daughter — Revised Initial Encounter
					

If you have the PDF version of the Winter's Daughter adventure from DriveThruRPG, you might have noticed an update a while back with couple of changes: The interior art and layout are now in colour. (The original version of the adventure had a purely black & white interior.) The cover now...




					necroticgnome.com


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## Umbran (Jan 7, 2022)

reelo said:


> But over here in Europe the whole discourse is a lot less, shall we say, "hysterical", and more rational and grounded.



*Mod Note:*
If you want to have a rational discussion, do not start it by insulting people.


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## overgeeked (Jan 8, 2022)

Reynard said:


> Alright, people really seem to love OSE as an alternative to B/X and other early versions of the game and retroclones. If you are one of those people, tell me what I should get OSE versus using my Rules Cyclopedia or my old B/X books? Also, tell me about the much lauded support for OSE, especially support in the weird fantasy/genre mashup space, if it exists.
> 
> Note that this isn't going to be the hardest sell in the world. I have some extra Christmas money, but I want to know why folks love it so much.



To bring things back around a bit...

OSE is as direct a retroclone as is legally possible to make of B/X. It has no content from the BECMI line or the RC, as far as I know. As mentioned, the books are new and designed in a great, easy to read layout. A few minor things that were inconsistent between B and X were smoothed out and they include charts for using either old-style descending AC or the newer ascending AC. They also make great use of space by printing on the end papers. Usually the charts and tables you'd have with a DM's screen.

There are a lot of adventures and 3PP writing for OSE now. It's kinda staggering for a "small" retroclone. Even a few award-winning adventures. Dolmenwood is great, except a few bits that have already been mentioned. Halls of the Blood King is a great adventure. The Incandescent Grottoes is another great one. As is The Isle of the Plangent Mage. The thing I love about OSR games, especially OSE, is the level of weird that goes into it. I really miss that. As mentioned, Planar Compass is their Planescape / Spelljammer mashup.

If you want pure B/X, pick up the Classic Fantasy black books. The Rules Tome is all you need as it contains all the rules for the game. The Player's Rules Tome is handy to pass around the table and only includes the player-facing rules, so no monsters or treasures, etc.

They recently did Advanced Fantasy. Which takes the races, classes, spells, etc from AD&D and fits them to the B/X rules. You can have either race as class per B/X or have race and class separate per AD&D. It's important to note you'll need both the Player's Tome and the Referee's Tome as the full contents are split between the two books, akin to the PHB and DMG.

There are some quibbles about the conversion of AD&D stuff to the Advanced Fantasy rules. Like the paladin's stats. In AD&D the paladin needs a 17 CHA, but in Advanced Fantasy only needing a 9 CHA. As far as I can tell there's a few oddities like that, but you're not dealing with wildly different abilities between AD&D classes/races and Advanced Fantasy classes/race. A paladin's a paladin and a barbarian's a barbarian.

ETA: To be clear. Advanced Fantasy has everything Classic Fantasy does plus their conversions of AD&D stuff into the B/X rules.


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## Aldarc (Jan 8, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> To bring things back around a bit...



Thank you. 



overgeeked said:


> There are a lot of adventures and 3PP writing for OSE now. It's kinda staggering for a "small" retroclone. Even a few award-winning adventures. Dolmenwood is great, except a few bits that have already been mentioned.



Just to add more regarding what I like about Dolmenwood: While Dolmenwood is written so that one can play the pre-existing B/X (and converted AD&D) classes (e.g., Fighter, Bard, Ranger, etc.), it also makes more genre-appropriate variants that help capture the medieval fairytale flavor of the setting better: e.g., Knight, Minstrel, Friar, Hunter, etc. 



overgeeked said:


> Halls of the Blood King is a great adventure. The Incandescent Grottoes is another great one. As is The Isle of the Plangent Mage. The thing I love about OSR games, especially OSE, is the level of weird that goes into it. I really miss that. As mentioned, Planar Compass is their Planescape / Spelljammer mashup.



Winter's Daughter (for Dolmenwood) also gets a lot of praise as an adventure.


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## schneeland (Jan 8, 2022)

Another nice thing about OSE is that it is apparently popular enough to receive translations. The German version has just been announced and according to the Necrotic Gnome info page, there are also versions in French, Italian, Portuguese and Spanish.

This also includes some of the adventures (e.g. Winter's Daughter is available in German and more is to come with the above-mentioned translation).


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## Nikosandros (Jan 8, 2022)

schneeland said:


> Another nice thing about OSE is that it is apparently popular enough to receive translations. The German version has just been announced and according to the Necrotic Gnome info page, there are also versions in French, Italian, Portuguese and Spanish.
> 
> This also includes some of the adventures (e.g. Winter's Daughter is available in German and more is to come with the above-mentioned translation).



In Italy it has indeed proven quite popular.


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## Mezuka (Jan 8, 2022)

OSE combines the B and X books in a single volume with crisp and clean modern-day graphic design. The author also fixes some omissions and inserts minor errata that are explained at the end of the book. He offers ascending AC and other optional rules. I also bought Advanced OSE, which separates race and class but also gives you extra race-as-class character choices.

The character sheet is really well made. It has useful boxes to record important info about exploration skills, like finding secret doors. Something the original D&D sheets didn't have. In other words, it's hard to forget about them. It is a better teaching tool when explaining how to play Original Basic D&D to those who never played the game.

I've never played beyond level 14. At that juncture, characters retired to their castle, hired new adventurers to go out and defend the kingdom, while they are miserably caught up in court intrigue, paying the bills and looking for spies!

I really enjoyed reading it and using it. OSE is a great addition to my collection.


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## kenada (Jan 9, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> There are a lot of adventures and 3PP writing for OSE now. It's kinda staggering for a "small" retroclone. Even a few award-winning adventures. Dolmenwood is great, except a few bits that have already been mentioned. Halls of the Blood King is a great adventure. The Incandescent Grottoes is another great one. As is The Isle of the Plangent Mage. The thing I love about OSR games, especially OSE, is the level of weird that goes into it. I really miss that. As mentioned, Planar Compass is their Planescape / Spelljammer mashup.



Can confirm. I just finished running _Halls of the Blood King_ for my group today, and we had a ton of fun. As far as horror fantasy adventures go, my players felt a sense of unease the entire time, which is not something one typically finds in a D&D game (and I ran it using WWN rather than OSE, so their characters were more powerful and resilient than the typical OSE character). We’ve also done _Winter’s Daughter_, which they liked too. As a referee, I like how in both adventures what happens depends greatly on the actions the players take as their characters.


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## LoganRan (Jan 10, 2022)

kenada said:


> Can confirm. I just finished running _Halls of the Blood King_ for my group today, and we had a ton of fun. As far as horror fantasy adventures go, my players felt a sense of unease the entire time, which is not something one typically finds in a D&D game (and* I ran it using WWN rather than OSE*, so their characters were more powerful and resilient than the typical OSE character). We’ve also done _Winter’s Daughter_, which they liked too. As a referee, I like how in both adventures what happens depends greatly on the actions the players take as their characters.



Remind me...why did you stop using the OSE ruleset in favor of Worlds Without Number?


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## kenada (Jan 11, 2022)

LoganRan said:


> Remind me...why did you stop using the OSE ruleset in favor of Worlds Without Number?



My players bounced off OSE. I think they prefer more customization than what OSE offers, and they weren’t happy after one combat went particularly poorly, but what they really didn’t like was how the XP system works in OSE. They felt XP for gold really pushed them into playing the game like it was about dungeon heists, but what they would rather do is pursue their characters’ agendas without the system’s pushing them to go in a certain direction. What we’re doing for XP in WWN is very heavily goal-driven, which they really like. For more details on what we’re doing, I made a recent post in the WWN thread with that discusses it a bit.

However, I’m still sort of having it both ways when it comes to system. Obviously, I’m keen to run Necrotic Gnome’s adventures because they’re pretty good. I’m also running something of a hybrid between WWN and OSE. WWN has some gaps in its rules and procedures (particularly when it comes exploration), which I’ve filled in from OSE. I also largely based my bestiary on OSE’s, though I have tweaked things a bit for WWN’s sensibilities. Vampire energy drain, for example, causes the target to gain system strain (and take a stacking penalty) instead of causing level loss, and going over your limit will cause you to turn into one in three days.


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## Voadam (Jan 11, 2022)

Just a heads up that today's Drivethru Deal of the Day is OSE High Moors hex crawl.


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## deganawida (Jan 28, 2022)

Just want to say thanks, I think.  My wallet is a little bit smaller, but I'm eagerly anticipating the arrival of my Basic Fantasy Tome.  While I'm still deciding on system, this thread got me to purchase an OSE product, and I absolutely love what I've seen of Dolmenwood, though I'm debating on whether or not I want to do the Patreon or just wait for release.


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## Weiley31 (Apr 28, 2022)

OSE with its Advanced Options+Rules Cyclopedia variant rules/toggles+Lamentations of the Flame Princess+all four Creature Crucibles Gazetteers sounds like my go to set up for doing it/older DND that isn't 2nd Edition or 3.0/3.5.


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## thirdkingdom (Apr 29, 2022)

There's only a couple days left for the OSE Treasures Bundle of Holding, which includes the OSE rules and a bunch of 3pp stuff (full disclosure I've got a couple titles in there).






						Bundle of Holding - Treasures lost
					






					bundleofholding.com


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## JarooAshstaff (May 8, 2022)

What is blowing my mind with OSE, is that youtube channels and lots of people have praised the book on its organization.  

But it has no index.

How can you have no index in this world of computers?

They added a spell index, a monster index, but no index for all the important things you want to look up.

How is this possible?


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## kenada (May 8, 2022)

OSE organizes content around the spread and puts all you need to know about a topic in its appropriate section. What would be the point of an index? It would (more or less) duplicate the table of contents.


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## JarooAshstaff (May 8, 2022)

kenada said:


> OSE organizes content around the spread and puts all you need to know about a topic in its appropriate section. What would be the point of an index? It would (more or less) duplicate the table of contents.



I understand if you have only ever googled things its a confusing concept I will grant you.  But I like to lookup things efficiently in an alphabetical index, not read the entire contents trying to guess which section it would be under.


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## Malmuria (May 8, 2022)

JarooAshstaff said:


> What is blowing my mind with OSE, is that youtube channels and lots of people have praised the book on its organization.
> 
> But it has no index.
> 
> ...



So as you note, the indices are grouped by category: spell, tables (players), monsters, magic items, tables (referee).  Then of course the table of contents.  Looking over all these just now, there's even a lot of overlap between them, so I don't think it would be hard to find things during play.  I suppose it would be helpful to have page numbers associated with some of the random tables (e.g. for monster encounters and magic items).  The only organizational thing that I'm a bit unsure of is that spells are organized by class, meaning that there are repeats.  But I guess this makes it easy as a player to choose your spells.


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## Yora (May 8, 2022)

Either way, there is no good reason not to have an index, just because some people don't want to use it.


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## kenada (May 8, 2022)

JarooAshstaff said:


> I understand if you have only ever googled things its a confusing concept I will grant you.  But I like to lookup things efficiently in an alphabetical index, not read the entire contents trying to guess which section it would be under.



No need to be rude just because the reason I speculated is not to your liking. In practice, I find it easy to look up things in the table of contents since it’s grouped by topic and comprehensive. However, I can understand preferring to have those topics also organized alphabetically, and OSE does come up short in that regard.



Yora said:


> Either way, there is no good reason not to have an index, just because some people don't want to use it.



I wouldn’t sacrifice content just to make room for an index, which is what Gavin would have to do to add a general index to OSE. The alternative is adding another signature to the books, which would require 4 to 16 more pages of content depending on the size of signature being used.


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## thirdkingdom (May 8, 2022)

One of the things I find difficult to use about the books (don't get me wrong, I love OSE) is that because there are so many different versions there's no easy way to reference a rule in 3rd-party books. Do I use Advanced or Basic, Referee's or Player's? I end up just referring to the chapter or sub-chapter for the rule I want to reference, which I find to be less than ideal.


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## Retreater (May 8, 2022)

thirdkingdom said:


> One of the things I find difficult to use about the books (don't get me wrong, I love OSE) is that because there are so many different versions there's no easy way to reference a rule in 3rd-party books. Do I use Advanced or Basic, Referee's or Player's? I end up just referring to the chapter or sub-chapter for the rule I want to reference, which I find to be less than ideal.



Even my friend who is a huge fan of OSE got confused and accidentally backed the recent Kickstarter, thinking it was something new, when it's essentially a new box to hold your books.
I've already bought too much of the stuff, and the line is getting bloated (for me) after just a few years. It's confusing to new players, redundant to veterans, a headache for store owners to stock. 
I think it would be preferable if Necrotic Gnome would create a compiled version, clearly label it "standard" and use that going forward.


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## Aldarc (May 8, 2022)

Retreater said:


> Even my friend who is a huge fan of OSE got confused and accidentally backed the recent Kickstarter, thinking it was something new, when it's essentially a new box to hold your books.
> I've already bought too much of the stuff, and the line is getting bloated (for me) after just a few years. It's confusing to new players, redundant to veterans, a headache for store owners to stock.
> I think it would be preferable if Necrotic Gnome would create a compiled version, clearly label it "standard" and use that going forward.



Good value or not, there was also a fairly large price tag on the box sets. So it felt a little less "new player" or "starter set" friendly than I would have liked. I will likely wait and see how my enthusiasm fairs once the Dolmenwood Kickstarter arrives, likely in Q1 2023.


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## kenada (May 8, 2022)

Technically, the most recent Kickstarter was new stuff. They reorganized the books again, so this box set is different from the last one. Not that I expect that to be reassuring. I agree having all the different books is needlessly confusing.


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## Reynard (May 8, 2022)

I am baffled someone went through the effort of defending the lack of an index.

I would argue in a game like OSE that is built on a game many of it's players already "know" and has many similar games adjacent to it, that an index is even more important. You are much more likely to need to spot check a specific rule during play in a game like that, and that's what an index is for.


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## kenada (May 8, 2022)

The original question was, “How is this possible?” I speculated about how it could possible. The negative responses my post engendered are what is baffling.



Reynard said:


> I would argue in a game like OSE that is built on a game many of it's players already "know" and has many similar games adjacent to it, that an index is even more important. You are much more likely to need to spot check a specific rule during play in a game like that, and that's what an index is for.



Is this a problem you find happens in practice? Like I said, I don’t find it to be, but that’s my experience, and I can understand why one would want an alphabetical index of all topics regardless.

Edit: rework for clarity and more constructive framing


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## kenada (Jun 2, 2022)

The boxed set Kickstarter has started delivering PDFs. The new covers are really nice. Carcass Crawler #3 has a nice discussion on creating monsters. The Tomb of Aum-Pharath in Carcass Crawler #2 looks like a nice, small dungeon. I like the inclusion of a secret entrance.


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## Yora (Jun 3, 2022)

There is _another_ repackaging of the content?

How many are there now?


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## Nikosandros (Jun 3, 2022)

Yora said:


> There is _another_ repackaging of the content?
> 
> How many are there now?



Just two currently: boxed sets or tomes. This KS was to reprint the boxed sets.


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## kenada (Jun 3, 2022)

The latest printing of the boxed sets also changed the organization of the books a bit to make them easier to use at the table.


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## Reynard (Aug 3, 2022)

::casts Raise Thread::

So I finally failed my save and purchased OSE last night: the Advanced Fantasy rulebooks, plus the Tower Silveraxe adventure.

Give me your top 5 tips for running OSE. Note: i started playing with BECMI, have played B/X and AD&D a bunch, but it has been 20 years since I ran Old School D&D in any serious way.


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## Monayuris (Aug 3, 2022)

I've been running B/X and other retro clones regularly for about 10 years now.

Here's my tips...


Use the Reactions rules. - B/X and OSE can be very deadly if combat is commonplace and frequent, especially at low levels. The Reaction rules are key to mitigating some of the deadliness. Encourage players to parley and use the Reaction Roll mechanic to determine the reaction of the monsters. The most common outcomes of the Reaction roll allows the players some way to avoid combat or at least choose if they engage in combat. In most cases, combat should be a choice available to the players.
Use Morale Rules - monsters will not always fight to the death, and there are situations where a monster will make a morale check and fail and run. If a monster fails and runs, have the monster run and consider it a WIN for the players. Don't always have running monsters come back to ambush later or come back with reinforcements. Consider breaking morale to be the same as a combat victory.
Use wandering monster checks in the dungeon. When you implement advice 1 and 2, they aren't so bad. But you need the constant pressure of potential encounters to build tension and provide challenge and risk. This encourages decisiveness and keeps the pace moving.
If you use followers and retainer, let the players run them as additional character's. Some DM's run all NPCS, I'd let players take them over. If you need to, you can override a player's action with a follower if it is too abusive.
When dealing with traps remember that dungeon movement rate is very slow. It assumes careful movement. I'd give players a chance to notice pits and traps or at least describe hints of their existence. Its more fun to know there's a trap but figure out how to overcome them that to just be forced to seemingly randomly have to make a save or take damage. Also (and this is general advice, but very important in OSE/B/X) remember that players rely on you for their knowledge of their environment. If they seem to be doing something profoundly stupid, its probably because your players misunderstood something you said. Clarify your player's intentions and assumptions before letting them do something dumb.


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## thirdkingdom (Aug 3, 2022)

Monayuris said:


> I've been running B/X and other retro clones regularly for about 10 years now.
> 
> Here's my tips...
> 
> ...




Addressing this point. I like to run games where players control a number of retainers and actually build retainer "trees" (with their retainers having retainers of their own, etc). My typical rule of thumb is that when a player is controlling the main PC all retainers are run as NPCs, but in instances when a retainer is acting on their own the player gets to control them as an actual PC.


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## overgeeked (Aug 3, 2022)

To reiterate three very good points above. Always use reaction rolls, always use morale rolls, and always use wandering monsters (not just in the dungeons). For basically the reasons stated above. But they also apply to overland travel as well. If the players want their character to reach the dungeon or adventure sight as well-rested as possible, they will actively avoid pointless combats along the way, but they will have plenty of opportunity to role-play, fight, and explore if they want to before reaching the dungeon.

It might help to pass around the Principia Apochrypha.









						Principia Apocrypha: Principles of Old School RPGs, or, A New OSR Primer
					

Principia Apocrypha is a new, free Primer for OSR  and other Old School Style RPG Gaming in the form of a collection of Apocalypse World-s...




					lithyscaphe.blogspot.com
				




My points would be.

1. Don't house rule until you've given the game as written a fair shake. Create characters as per the rules. Follow the procedures of play. Roll some checks for the players when their characters wouldn't know the outcome either way (secret doors, traps, etc). While not as tightly wound as modern games, the designers did know what they were doing and elements will interact with each other in unforeseen ways. Get used to the game first, then if you feel you need to make changes, hack away.

2. Follow the procedures of play. Roll to get lost. Roll to forage. If the party wants to hunt for food, they stop traveling to hunt. Players declare their actions at the start of the round. Casters can either move or cast spells. The procedures are there to both show you how the game is supposed to be played, but also to minimize adversarial refereeing. You're not deciding to put monsters in their path when they're already near dead, it's been an hour and the PCs are making noise, so it's time for a wandering monster check. It's not you deciding that a warband of 37 orcs happens to be on patrol, it's the dice making that determination. As such the world is dangerous and if the players want their PCs to survive, they have to play smart.

3. Keep track of time and resources. Older D&D games are very much resource management games. Time, food, water, spells, torches, oil, hit points, weight carried, etc are all resources to keep track of. It can be a lot at first. But it's worthwhile as it leads inevitably to hard choices. How long do you push in the dungeon with dwindling supplies? How much treasure do you pack out considering you still need to carry your arms and armor, food and water, etc? Do you toss food at chasing monsters in the hopes they're hungry and will leave you alone? These are the kinds of hard choices that make these games so interesting.

4. As often as possible, roll in the open. Some checks you'll need to keep behind the screen to avoid meta-gaming (secret doors, etc) but as much as you can, roll where the players can see. This avoids even the hint of adversarial refereeing. Wandering monsters, roll in the open. What the monsters are, roll in the open. Number appearing, roll in the open. Attacks and damage, in the open. Etc. You're not out to get the PCs or the players, you're following the dice.

5. Encourage the players' creativity. The biggest draw, for me, for older games is they are so light on rules and so deadly that they practically beg the players to get creative. So not only "let" the players get creative, but actively encourage it. More often than not, the players being creative will get them out of far more problems than combat or rolling dice will. Keep things grounded in the world you're using, but if some wild idea could work, give them a fair shot at it working. Description should always beat rolling dice.


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## Voadam (Aug 3, 2022)

1 Be aware that there are not a lot of default mechanics for things like social interactions, mostly just the reaction roll and charisma adjustments to that roll. Be ready to roleplay interactions and have NPCs/monsters make reactions as seems reasonable for those specific NPCs and the specifics in the situation.

2 Be ready to describe things evocatively and make judgment calls. A lot of old school play was skilled play about players coming up with solutions based on descriptions rather than having characters designed mechanically well for the situation. Often this meant resolving things with no die rolls at all but based on a player's description of their actions and the DM's knowledge of the situation and the DM's conception of what seems reasonable.  

3 Be aware of the fragility of characters. Death at 0 hp. Save or Die. Low hp for a long while. Few healing resources.

4 Be aware of the low resources, particularly at low level. Poor chances to hit, really low percentage thief skills, limited one shot spells per day.


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## Mannahnin (Aug 3, 2022)

I generally agree with the prior posts, but I do usually use a couple of simple house rules:

1. Max HP at first level.  Just this little durability boost helps a bit.  I've also considered the Petal Throne-style "Re-roll all your hit dice every time you level" approach but never played a full campaign this way.

2. As an alternative to the book's take on Sub-Par Characters (you can ask the DM to re-roll if your ability scores suck) I like the "flip" method.  That is, roll 3d6 in order, but you may optionally flip the set by subtracting all values, in order, from 21.  This still means most characters will be pretty average, but turns cruddy ones into strong ones, and gives the player a choice of two sets without requiring any re-rolls.

3. I really like including spell acquisition rules, which are an optional rule in OSE for M-Us and Elves.  I think it's much more fun to play those characters if you can acquire spells from scrolls and enemy spellbooks, not just from leveling up.

Another piece of advice for DMing I'd give is from Moldvay, that the pace of advancement should, at least for the first few levels, see surviving PCs gaining a level once every 3-4 sessions (thieves and clerics likely a session faster, elves slower).  While the players' choices and their luck will have a lot of say in this, it's incumbent on the DM to make sure that enough treasure is available so it's at least possible for them to level that fast!  When designing dungeons/adventure sites, be sure to place at least a couple of bountiful hoards/stashes of major coin/gems/jewelry per dungeon level, and not just use random stocking for treasure.  Random stocking is intended to be used to flesh out the balance of a level, AFTER you've placed a couple/few hoards, cool monster lairs and/or special/magical rooms that you deliberately design and place.


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## overgeeked (Aug 3, 2022)

One of my favorite house rules for old-school play is to award XP for gold _spent_ instead of gold found. This makes it far more like a Conan, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, and other sword & sorcery stories. Fighters can spend on training, magic-user can spend on magical research, thieves can spend on bribes, clerics donate to their church, etc. And of course, there's always drinking and carousing. It also just makes more sense. If you're a brave adventurer and you barely survived one dungeon crawl...why would you ever do that again if you're sitting on a pile of gold that will let you live comfortably for the rest of your days? You wouldn't. So, XP for gold spent and now the PCs actually have a reason to go out adventuring again.


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## Mannahnin (Aug 3, 2022)

Yes, Carousing is another rule I commonly use, to soak up excess treasure and help PCs advance a little faster.  The usual way I run it is as follows:

After any given adventure, a PC may choose to Carouse, wasting money on wine, fine foods, parties, charming company, music and revelry.  Roll 1d6 and multiply by 100.  Spend that many GP and gain that many XP immediately.  I normally also then have them roll a save vs poison.  On a failed save, I roll on a table for some amusing complication or misadventure.  Most of the time these are just color, though sometimes they may present a problem or an adventure hook.  Here's an example table:


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## Reynard (Aug 3, 2022)

Question: I want to use my AD&D 2E Monstrous Manual for monster stats. What pitfalls should I look out for?


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## Monayuris (Aug 3, 2022)

Reynard said:


> Question: I want to use my AD&D 2E Monstrous Manual for monster stats. What pitfalls should I look out for?



Should be doable. I’ve used AD&D monsters almost as written.

Use OSE for attack/to hit based on hit die.
Use OSE saves by class level (if it says Saves as F8 use saves for an OSE 8th level fighter)
Use d8 for all monster hit dice.
You might want to step down damage by a die size.l… I think PCs in 2e use AD&D class hit dice (d10 for fighter, d8 for cleric, d6 for thief, etc…)

Off the top of my head I don’t see any other things to worry about.


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## Voadam (Aug 3, 2022)

Reynard said:


> Question: I want to use my AD&D 2E Monstrous Manual for monster stats. What pitfalls should I look out for?



1e MM is close to basic for monster stats.

2e bumped up the power (mostly HD) of dragons and giants so if you are running OSE modules then this might be an unintended power up in opposition.


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## Nikosandros (Aug 4, 2022)

Another couple of considerations for monsters are morale (2e uses a different scale from B/X) and saving throws. In AD&D a monster normally saves as a fighter with a level equal to HD, while in Basic saves are alway explicit and are often at a lower level.


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## Monayuris (Aug 4, 2022)

Voadam said:


> 1e MM is close to basic for monster stats.
> 
> 2e bumped up the power (mostly HD) of dragons and giants so if you are running OSE modules then this might be an unintended power up in opposition.



That’s good to know. Honestly, 2E is the edition I’m least familiar with.

But the saving grace is if you know the monster’s hit dice you can adjust the power level down.

Yeah maybe a quick comparison of AC and abilities with some existing similar OSE monsters may be a good idea.


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## Reynard (Aug 4, 2022)

Here is the first draft of my intitial design doc for the campaign I want to run.
----------
The Point
    The purpose of this campaign is to play an old school exploration based campaign with a defined end point (slay the dragon, obvs). PCs will begin the adventure/campaign without the personal power or resources to take on the dragon and will have to spend their time acquiring that power and those resources. How they go about doing so is entirely up to them. There is no quest line. The only thing certain is that the dragon sleeps in its lair from the time the PCs arrive at the Autumn Equinox until the following Summer Solstice (9 months), when it wakes and gorges itself on flock and shepherd alike.

The Land
    The Barony of Falscorth is located in the hinterlands of the Kingdom of Hurdon. It is composed primarily of a river valley in the semi-arid highlands. The relatively flat land near the wide, shallow river is farmed and the rugged hillsides that border the valley are grazed. There are copses of dense, gnarled trees but no true forests The capital (called Falscorth) is located alongside a “lake” near the mouth (lower) end of the valley. Lake Falscorth is really little more than a slight widening and deepening of the river. Villages follow the river for a few leagues before the land becomes too rugged and there are a few herding settlements on the hillsides.
    The most notable feature of the Barony is that is is littered with the barrows, cairns and tombs of a long dead and forgotten people. Certainly buried for millenia, these tombs housed kings, warriors, priests and sorcerers. Many are filled with grave goods. All are dangerous, haunted by fell spirits, strange monsters, or both. By decree, any such burial place that is found is property of the Lady Falscorth (along with its contents, of course). Most tombs re found by accident and not well explored when turned over to the Baroness, but a growing cottage industry of spelunkers and tomb robbers has begun to take root in Falscorth -- some of whom even report their findings to the Lady and her guards.

The Dragon
    The dragon Baskrorix arrived in Falscorth five years ago. The monstrous red wyrm descended from the peaks north of the valley and tore into a hillside, revealing a cavernous tomb. It did not merely loot the treasures within and flee, however, as the then still living Lord Falscorth assured his subjects that it would. Instead it made the cairn its lair and from there it sortied into the valley. It devoured both flock and shepherd and incinerated farm and farmer alike. It attacked again and again for a full month before seeming to lay itself to rest. Lord Falscorth -- carrying the blessings of teh Nine, charms from his sorcerous vizier, and bearing ancient weapons looted from area tombs -- led his small but loyal army to destroy the beast. Baskrorix allowed a squire and a shield maiden to survive so as to tell the rest of the dragon’s “subjects” its name, then went to sleep.
It awoke on the following summer solstice and began its assault anew, as it has every year since. It attacks for a month, then slumbers again until the next year.
In the meantime, Lady Falscorth has alternately tried to appease it with sacrifices, bribe it into leaving and kill it with guile (a flock with bellies full of poison). None of her tactics have worked and every summer her lands are again under the terror of fire and claw.
Finally at a loss, Lady Falscorth has abandoned pride and put out the call: anyone, be it a single champion or an army of mercenaries, who kills or drives of Baskrorix will be granted all the wealth in the dragon’s lair and wherever among the victors is chosen to do so will wed her and become the new Lord Falscorth.

The PCs
    Player characters in the campaign will be among those who have come to Falscorth Barony to slay Baskrorix and claim the reward. That is the only requirement. The presumption is that they will engage in activities to prepare themselves to attempt the task. How they do so is entirely up to the players, but likely activities include exploring the local dungeons for experience and treasure, finding henchmen and other allies, and making contact with the Baroness and other powers in the valley. It is known that Baskrorix wakes on the Summer Solstice and the PCs arrive in Falscorth on the Autumn Equinox.  Player characters arrive in the Falscorth as 1st level adventurers. They are assumed to be members of a group that has agreed to try and take down Baskrorix together, and may want to put together a charter or group bylaws prior to beginning adventuring.


The Rules
    The campaign is played using Old School Essentials Advanced Fantasy rules. No house rules are planned, and all the usual rules from OSE are intended to be used, including random encounters, exploration procedures, reaction rolls, morale checks for enemies, random treasure generation, and so on.


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## Cruentus (Aug 4, 2022)

Reynard said:


> Question: I want to use my AD&D 2E Monstrous Manual for monster stats. What pitfalls should I look out for?



Most of the above comments are solid and I agree completely.

With re: to monsters, I find that everything up to 1e is pretty straightforward to just port over, maybe keeping an eye on Morale for some of the monsters (I seemed to have noticed some creep).  Don't be afraid to lower a monster's attack damage die or play with AC to bring it in line with where the players are.  OSE does have some monsters in their rulebooks, so use those as a rough guide.  Using 2e MM is fine as well, you again might want to adjust down as others have mentioned.

EDIT 2: I also simplify or remove abilities of some monsters, to keep aligned with how OSE and Basic DnD roll.  Monsters over time have had a lot of abilities added to them, and many can be safely ignored, unless its the monster's key feature  

The other thing generally I'd say is that OSE plays much slower than 5e, for example.  And maybe its just our group, but we're not rushing through things at the table.  Lots of discussion, more RP, but also less getting stuck on the character sheet for answers, lots of creative solutions to things in game.  Don't worry if the game seems to "crawl", sometimes it will, particularly when being careful in dungeons, but then the action is fast and furious when it occurs.

Last thing is that OSE does have that undead level drain mechanic.  I know that's fairly polarizing, and things that drain energy levels are not unheard of on random monster tables.  Just something to consider (or avoid those undead until the party gets some levels under them).

Report back on how your games go!

*EDIT: after reading your write up, is the intention that the party will be in a position to slay the dragon after 9 months, or is that just a known fact of the realm?  What happens if the wyrm wakes up and they're not ready?  Does it attack again then go to sleep, or is the campaign over at that point?  Just curious. Sounds like a fun campaign!


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## Reynard (Aug 4, 2022)

Cruentus said:


> *EDIT: after reading your write up, is the intention that the party will be in a position to slay the dragon after 9 months, or is that just a known fact of the realm?  What happens if the wyrm wakes up and they're not ready?  Does it attack again then go to sleep, or is the campaign over at that point?  Just curious. Sounds like a fun campaign!



My thought is that they know when they arrive and they know when it wakes up so they have a deadline if they want to catch it unawares. Obviously, the could just hole up or even flee when it wakes, but I would kind of assume either of those things would be a "fail state." The depredations would be so bad this time that there isn't anything left to save, etc...


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## Cruentus (Aug 4, 2022)

Reynard said:


> My thought is that they know when they arrive and they know when it wakes up so they have a deadline if they want to catch it unawares. Obviously, the could just hole up or even flee when it wakes, but I would kind of assume either of those things would be a "fail state." The depredations would be so bad this time that there isn't anything left to save, etc...



Cool.  In that case, you have to be ready to hand out a lot of treasure in those barrows, and whatever else the players decide to pursue.  As you can see in the Advanced materials, it takes a lot more XP to level up, and gold is the only way to do it (magic items don't, iirc, give Xps.).  

Of course, they can get XP for bringing the treasure out, and it sounds like the Queen is going to take the treasures anyway until they chase off the dragon and claim its hoard, so you won't have to worry about them becoming too rich 

And I'm sure you already know all this, so feel free to ignore my prattle


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## Reynard (Aug 4, 2022)

Cruentus said:


> Cool.  In that case, you have to be ready to hand out a lot of treasure in those barrows, and whatever else the players decide to pursue.  As you can see in the Advanced materials, it takes a lot more XP to level up, and gold is the only way to do it (magic items don't, iirc, give Xps.).
> 
> Of course, they can get XP for bringing the treasure out, and it sounds like the Queen is going to take the treasures anyway until they chase off the dragon and claim its hoard, so you won't have to worry about them becoming too rich
> 
> And I'm sure you already know all this, so feel free to ignore my prattle



I'm still in the planning stages so I can make adjustments. I might start them at 2nd or even 3rd level. Baskrorix might be less Smaug and more St George's dragon. It will all depend on how much time I think I have, the players, and so on. I appreciate your insight, tho!


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## overgeeked (Aug 4, 2022)

Reynard said:


> The Rules
> The campaign is played using Old School Essentials Advanced Fantasy rules. No house rules are planned, and all the usual rules from OSE are intended to be used, including random encounters, exploration procedures, reaction rolls, morale checks for enemies, random treasure generation, and so on.



OSE also has a fair amount of optional rules. You might want to check out this page and grab the free PDF checklist. It might seem silly, but it does help. 









						Old-School Essentials Optional Rules Checklist
					

DOWNLOAD HERE The official optional rules checklist for the Old-School Essentials game. Lists all Classic Fantasy and Advanced Fantasy optional rules. Optional rules summaries for quick reference. A check box for each optional rule. A4 size. Form-fillable PDF.




					necroticgnome.com


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## Reynard (Aug 4, 2022)

Am I right in thinking a party should start being able to consider taking an OSE red dragon at about 5th level assuming they are able to plan a strike? Looking at the numbers it seems about right.


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## overgeeked (Aug 4, 2022)

Reynard said:


> Am I right in thinking a party should start being able to consider taking an OSE red dragon at about 5th level assuming they are able to plan a strike? Looking at the numbers it seems about right.



It all depends on how smart the players are and how smart you play the dragon, but I would say not really no.

A red dragon starts with 10** HD for an average of 45 hp. Its breath weapon is a 90’ cone that deals its current hp in damage. A 5th-level fighter will have at most (1d8+3) x 5 hp. So if the fighter rolled less than ~80% of max for hp and fails their save (13 or higher, so 60% to fail)…it’s a one shot kill. If the fighter makes the save (40%), then they’re down by about half from one attack. But going with the average amount of hp a 5th-level fighter would have...yeah, even if they make their save, a round one breath weapon is going to one-shot that fighter. Not to mention all the other characters without that many hp. And that assumes the party starts the fight at full health...which is more than likely not going to happen, making one-shot kills more likely. The dragon can do that 3x per day with diminishing returns due to losing hp as the fight goes on.

Unless the dragon is incredibly dumb, it’s going to fly, avoid melee, and spend 3 rounds covering the party in flaming death. Plus it has three attacks at +8 for 1d8 x2 and 4d8. It’s AC20. It also has a 50% chance for 3 1st-, 3 2nd-, and 3 3rd-level spells. Fireball and lightning bolt come to mind. Fireball and lightning bolt in B/X deal 1d6 per caster level. With 10 HD, that’s a 10d6 fireball (average of 35 damage). X3. Plus those 1st- and 2nd-level spells.

ETA: And that’s not considering the advice from the Monsters and NPCs section of the books. OSEAF Referee’s Tome, p7. Dragons are smart. They will have guards and traps, etc. That will be an incredibly tough fight for a fresh party of 5th-level characters with it being very likely several of them will die in the first few rounds.


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## Mannahnin (Aug 4, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> Unless the dragon is incredibly dumb, it’s going to fly, avoid melee, and spend 3 rounds covering the party in flaming death. Plus it has three attacks at +8 for 1d8 x2 and 4d8. It’s AC20. It also has a 50% chance for 3 1st-, 3 2nd-, and 3 3rd-level spells. Fireball and lightning bolt come to mind. Fireball and lightning bolt in B/X deal 1d6 per caster level. With 10 HD, that’s a 10d6 fireball (average of 35 damage). X3. Plus those 1st- and 2nd-level spells.
> 
> ETA: And that’s not considering the advice from the Monsters and NPCs section of the books. OSEAF Referee’s Tome, p7. Dragons are smart. They will have guards and traps, etc. That will be an incredibly tough fight for a fresh party of 5th-level characters with it being very likely several of them will die in the first few rounds.



This is likely one of the reasons that B/X and BECMI give guidelines for dragons in combat which include randomizing which attack form they use in any given round.  

But overall, absolutely, yes, a dragon is going to be a very scary fight for most parties, and a red dragon usually more appropriate for a party of maybe 7th or 8th level.  A lot hinges on the circumstances of the fight (whether they can attack it in a place where it can't easily fly out of melee reach), and who wins initiative.  If the PCs can put a substantial dent in its HP before it gets off a breath weapon attack.

And all this is exacerbated if the DM uses 2nd ed stats, which significantly beefed up dragons.


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## Reynard (Aug 4, 2022)

Thanks @overgeeked and @Mannahnin . 

Note a couple things: I am talking about an absolute floor of when the PCs will THEMSELVES think they are ready, and that the rules of the scenario say the dragon will be asleep unless they wait for it to wake up. Mostly I am trying to determine how dense to make the sandbox so I have enough potential XP out there to get them to where they are ready to make their move.


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## Mannahnin (Aug 4, 2022)

Reynard said:


> Thanks @overgeeked and @Mannahnin .
> 
> Note a couple things: I am talking about an absolute floor of when the PCs will THEMSELVES think they are ready, and that the rules of the scenario say the dragon will be asleep unless they wait for it to wake up. Mostly I am trying to determine how dense to make the sandbox so I have enough potential XP out there to get them to where they are ready to make their move.



Makes sense!  

You can also seed specific tools in the sandbox which would help against the dragon.  One or more rings or potions of fire resistance, a scroll of protection from fire, a magic sword +1 /+3 vs dragons, or even a poison (not save or die, but HP damage or some weakening effect) that's specifically efficacious against dragons that they can obtain from some wizard or druid or something in the setting if they do said NPC a big enough favor.


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## Reynard (Aug 4, 2022)

Mannahnin said:


> Makes sense!
> 
> You can also seed specific tools in the sandbox which would help against the dragon.  One or more rings or potions of fire resistance, a scroll of protection from fire, a magic sword +1 /+3 vs dragons, or even a poison (not save or die, but HP damage or some weakening effect) that's specifically efficacious against dragons that they can obtain from some wizard or druid or something in the setting if they do said NPC a big enough favor.



Yeah, I figured I would do some combination of that and "Say Yes" when they start coming up with bizarre plans.


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## Voadam (Aug 4, 2022)

In addition to morale possibly being on a different scale in 2e (I have not checked), I believe the listed xp is a different formula. You could compare the listed amounts for hobgoblins or some other common monster in both systems to see.


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## Nikosandros (Aug 4, 2022)

Voadam said:


> In addition to morale possibly being on a different scale in 2e (I have not checked)



Yes, in 2e morale is on a 2-20 scale (2d10) instead of 2-12 (2d6).


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## Reynard (Aug 4, 2022)

Nikosandros said:


> Yes, in 2e morale is on a 2-20 scale (2d10) instead of 2-12 (2d6).



Yeah, I think I will use the 2E MM for inspiration and non-mechanical information. I don't ant to have to fiddle with numbers a bunch -- especially the dragon (which is become more St. George-like than Smaug-like the more I plan the thing).


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## Voadam (Aug 4, 2022)

Reynard said:


> Yeah, I think I will use the 2E MM for inspiration and non-mechanical information. I don't ant to have to fiddle with numbers a bunch -- especially the dragon (which is become more St. George-like than Smaug-like the more I plan the thing).



Most of the key stats are completely mechanically compatible, HD, AC, damage, special attacks and defenses.

There are a few exceptions to be aware of (morale, xp, alignment, dragons, giants). otherwise I would feel free to use them as desired.


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## Mannahnin (Aug 4, 2022)

Voadam said:


> Most of the key stats are completely mechanically compatible, HD, AC, damage, special attacks and defenses.



AC is sometimes a point off, as I recall, since AD&D sets unarmored AC at 10, and D&D has it at 9.  

But yeah, generally speaking they're super close.  The 1E MM is even closer, since it was really written as much for OD&D as it was for AD&D.


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## Reynard (Aug 4, 2022)

HUGE old school Humble Bundle.


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## overgeeked (Aug 4, 2022)

Reynard said:


> HUGE old school Humble Bundle.



That's a crazy good deal. All of OSE for $45 is a steal. Plus all those modules. That's fantastic.


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## Reynard (Aug 4, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> That's a crazy good deal. All of OSE for $45 is a steal. Plus all those modules. That's fantastic.



Right? I just bought OSE last night and I still sprung for the Bundle because there is so much in it.


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## overgeeked (Aug 4, 2022)

Reynard said:


> Right? I just bought OSE last night and I still sprung for the Bundle because there is so much in it.



Including the free optional rules checklist I just linked to yesterday. LOL.


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## Grendel_Khan (Aug 4, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> That's a crazy good deal. All of OSE for $45 is a steal. Plus all those modules. That's fantastic.




Even the $1 bundle is incredible. Wow.


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## overgeeked (Aug 4, 2022)

Grendel_Khan said:


> Even the $1 bundle is incredible. Wow.



Absolutely. The OSE Classic Fantasy Rules Tome (the one in the $1 bundle) is all you need to play. It's the complete retroclone of B/X. The Hole in the Oak is a fantastic module and well worth full price. And the optional rules checklist is still free. LOL.


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## Voadam (Aug 4, 2022)

I already had Rappan Athuk and a bunch of the other Frog god ones (though for 5e) but Highfell and a bunch of Necrotic stuff that I didn't already have was a quick grab.


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## Reynard (Aug 5, 2022)

On dungeons: I don't want to do a mega dungeon,  but I still want PCs to explore in the traditional manner. One thing I am thinking of is that all of the ancient burial tombs are far more extensive inside that the mounds or cairns would suggest. Maybe the first two or three chambers seem "normal" but as you go deeper it starts to expand and change. There is some mystical effect-- maybe based on the land, maybe religious, I haven't decided -- that turns the tomb into a kind of mini heaven or hell based on the nature of, deeds and sins of the one buried within.

Something like this would let me do very different isolated dungeons while not having to rely on the IMO boring 5 room model. 

Thoughts?


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## aia_2 (Aug 5, 2022)

Sorry but where is it written the format? For that price i assume theseare pdfs but i could not find the info ...

Re to the topic: is OSE more or less collectable than the previous edition (entitled "B/X essential")?


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## overgeeked (Aug 5, 2022)

aia_2 said:


> Sorry but where is it written the format? For that price i assume theseare pdfs but i could not find the info ...



The Humble Bundle? PDFs. 


aia_2 said:


> Re to the topic: is OSE more or less collectable than the previous edition (entitled "B/X essential")?



What do you mean? Will they be worth gobs more money in a few years? Not likely.


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## overgeeked (Aug 5, 2022)

Reynard said:


> On dungeons: I don't want to do a mega dungeon,  but I still want PCs to explore in the traditional manner. One thing I am thinking of is that all of the ancient burial tombs are far more extensive inside that the mounds or cairns would suggest. Maybe the first two or three chambers seem "normal" but as you go deeper it starts to expand and change. There is some mystical effect-- maybe based on the land, maybe religious, I haven't decided -- that turns the tomb into a kind of mini heaven or hell based on the nature of, deeds and sins of the one buried within.
> 
> Something like this would let me do very different isolated dungeons while not having to rely on the IMO boring 5 room model.
> 
> Thoughts?



That sounds a lot more fun and interesting than most dungeons. Maybe give the PCs ways to learn about the person buried there to prepare for what might meet them in the underworld.


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## kenada (Aug 5, 2022)

Reynard said:


> On dungeons: I don't want to do a mega dungeon,  but I still want PCs to explore in the traditional manner. One thing I am thinking of is that all of the ancient burial tombs are far more extensive inside that the mounds or cairns would suggest. Maybe the first two or three chambers seem "normal" but as you go deeper it starts to expand and change. There is some mystical effect-- maybe based on the land, maybe religious, I haven't decided -- that turns the tomb into a kind of mini heaven or hell based on the nature of, deeds and sins of the one buried within.
> 
> Something like this would let me do very different isolated dungeons while not having to rely on the IMO boring 5 room model.
> 
> Thoughts?



You could grab one of Necrotic Gnome’s adventures and use that as source material for your dungeon. Other than _Halls of the Blood King_ (which is excellent but not really a traditional dungeon), they’re all supposed to be pretty good. I’ve also run _Winter’s Daughter_ (good but short) and plan to start _Incandescent Grottoes_ sometime soon.

Edit: To address your question more directly, I think you have an interesting concept. If you want to avoid just having a 5-room dungeon, I’d suggest paying attention to and following the stocking procedures. Dungeons in B/X are meant to have empty rooms.


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## Voadam (Aug 5, 2022)

Reynard said:


> On dungeons: I don't want to do a mega dungeon,  but I still want PCs to explore in the traditional manner. One thing I am thinking of is that all of the ancient burial tombs are far more extensive inside that the mounds or cairns would suggest. Maybe the first two or three chambers seem "normal" but as you go deeper it starts to expand and change. There is some mystical effect-- maybe based on the land, maybe religious, I haven't decided -- that turns the tomb into a kind of mini heaven or hell based on the nature of, deeds and sins of the one buried within.
> 
> Something like this would let me do very different isolated dungeons while not having to rely on the IMO boring 5 room model.
> 
> Thoughts?



That sounds like a fun premise.

I am a fan of the premise in Nightmares Underneath where dungeons are manifestations of Chaos and Nightmares sending incursions into reality through manifesting mythic underdark dungeons that grow.

"The justification for dungeoncrawling in this setting is that adventurers are raiding nightmare incursions, to find the treasure that keeps an incursion anchored to the physical world. Once the treasure is looted, the incursion is destroyed, and the adventurers profit. Individual creatures made of nightmares can be killed, but as long as the incursion exists, it will continue to spawn more."

"There are procedures for creating nightmare incursions, the creatures that stalk them, and how they grow larger and more dangerous the longer it takes adventurers to deal with them. The rules also include procedures for creating ancient ruins that may or may not be plagued by nightmares."

I played a paladin monster hunter in a game where I felt it was my duty to plunder dungeons to combat Chaos incursions using this type of setup and it was a lot of fun.


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## Thomas Shey (Aug 5, 2022)

There's some conceptual overlap between the Nightmares Underneath dungeons and the living dungeons from 13th Age.


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