# Deaths Gate - Rule's finalized, Now Recruiting! **Paging Players**



## Jemal (Mar 20, 2007)

So I've been re-reading Weis & Hickman's "The Death Gate Cycle", and I've been thinking that the labyrinth from it would make for an interesting campaign world... However, the setting doesn't quite fit D&D so some changes would have to be made... Specifically, the fact that Patryn's and Sartan use what's known as "Rune Magic", which takes something that's "possible" and makes it happen... The less likely it is, the harder it is to do.  I don't think that would work out too well in a D&D game, so I'ld basically scratch that and just replace it with the normal magic system.

There are several other minor things, but the other MAJOR thing is Equipment - They don't use much, except for weapons made by themselves and self-enchanted with runes (Which anybody can do).  I still haven't figured out how to handle that.. Maybe Iron Heroes, maybe something akin to 'vow of poverty'.  I was also thinking that maybe I could just allow magical items, but they all take the form of tattoos on your skin (A'la one of the races of the book, Patryns), etc, etc.

The basic setting of the books is that the Sartan (A super-powerful group of humanoids who use Rune Magic and live in large communities) and the Patryn (Same thing, but mostly loners/small tribes) were at War on Earth.  The Sartan grew weary of the war and all banded together to Sunder the World into several pieces.. Four different worlds (Air, Earth, Fire, Water) for the Mensch (Humans, Elves, Dwarves), the Labyrinth - A prison for their enemies (The Patryn), and the Nexus, a beautiful city outside the last gate of the labyrinth, built for their enemies to inhabit after they've "escaped and been rehabilitated".
Everything backfired, of course - The worlds were supposed to support each other (Fire sending energy, Earth sending Resources, etc) but something failed.  The labyrinth also got screwed up - Some of the Sartan's Anger and Hatred fueled it, made it come alive, and it hates all living things, trying to destroy everything instead of challenging and rehabilitating them.  The Patryn grew up in this labyrinth for many generations, fighting it and trying to get out.

The Labyrinth itself is what inspired me... A sentient prison realm filled with all manner of horrible beasties, death and evil incarnate... But also filled with Hope, as people band together to try defeating it.

If you haven't read the book, getting the 'feel' of it won't be as easy, but shouldn't hinder you too much... 
I was just wondering, before we commit to anything, a few things : 
Who's read the Death Gate Cycle?
Who would like to try something like this out?
Who wants more information?
Who has ideas to share that could help?


----------



## krunchyfrogg (Mar 20, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> I was just wondering, before we commit to anything, a few things :
> Who's read the Death Gate Cycle?
> Who would like to try something like this out?
> Who wants more information?
> Who has ideas to share that could help?




Read it, love it.
I'd definitely try something out.
I want info!
I'm not too familiar with 3.5, definitely not with any additional books, so my help probably won't be very good.


----------



## Jemal (Mar 21, 2007)

Well, we'ld have to make some modifications to make if fit the flavour, unless you know of another system that would work better...

I was more wondering if anybody else had ideas of how to work in the lack of magical items, racial abilities of Patryn/Sartan (And whether we should even use them, or just stick to the normal base races and make the world 'similar enough'.  

On the lack of magical items, I was thinking either A) Use the Iron Heroes setting from Monte Cook, B) Use an alternate form of magic items that is essentially Tattoos (A'la Patryn), but costs the same as Magic, and instead of getting treasure, when you level up you get another tatoo or upgrade existing tatoos to make up the relative treasure difference, OR C) Make up something entirely unique.

Because of the setting and the lack of gear, Vow of Poverty would make absolutely no sense, so it would obviously not be allowed.  As to what other books would work, we'ld have to figure that out, though I'm sure most 3.5 material would work.  Though, as I said, if anybody can name a system that would work better (And If I could somehow get ahold of said system), we could try that.


----------



## Shayuri (Mar 21, 2007)

You -can- use D&D core rules with low magic. You have to ditch the "recommended money per character level" thing, and you have to pay -very- close attention to what monsters you're using, and what their stats are, because the CR system will fall apart.

If you don't mind doing those two things, low magic should be fine.


----------



## Jemal (Mar 21, 2007)

I haven't used the CR system in a couple years, it tends to not work unless the players are using cookie cutters.  

Even then though, half the monsters aren't D&D monsters, I'ld have to ad-hoc create them.


----------



## -SIN- (Mar 21, 2007)

I've not read them, but it sounds _REALLY_ interesting. Count me in!!

As a thought, you might want to post this in the OP to generate a little more interest?

"The Earth was destroyed. 
Four worlds were created out of the ruin. Worlds for ourselves and the mensch: Air, Fire, Stone, Water. 
Four Gates connect each world to the other: Arianus to Pryan to Abarrach to Chelestra. 
A house of correction was built for our enemies: the Labyrinth. 
The Labyrinth is connected to the other worlds through the Fifth Gate: the Nexus. 
The Sixth Gate is the center, permitting entry: the Vortex. 
And all was accomplished through the Seventh Gate. 
The end was the beginning. "

As for the low/no magic - I was reading about a supplement purely about non-magical equipment/treasure (for 3.5) which may help, I'll have to tryt to find it though (I may already have it as a PDF?)

As for races, why not just have one race with 'regional' modifiers?

As i said originally, I've not read the series so don't know if anything I say is any help?

I got the quote from wiki, but I've not actually read the page. I'll do so now and see if I can garner anything that can help us build a workable system.

One thing that immediatly spings to mind - how in gods name did they manage to split the ruins of earth into the 4 domains without the said 'non-existant' magic?...


----------



## Jemal (Mar 21, 2007)

OH, there's a LOT of magic, they just don't have magic ITEMS.


----------



## -SIN- (Mar 21, 2007)

Ahhh, there IS magic - on wiki it says you can go as far as controlling dragons with magic? Thats pretty high magic. It also says Patryn all have inate magic abilities...

Why not run magic like wild psionics in darksun? i.e. Certain cirumstances 'trigger' the spell, like dropping to x HP for example. Each player would not know the spell's they're capable of, nor the trigger, which _could_be quite interesting. Or Once a spell has been triggered, the individual is left with scar (in the form of a tattoo), and then can call upon it's magic at will x amount of days? Or a combination of both (i.e. once reaching say 5th lvl, or having tripped the spell x amount of times?)

Says there's Dwarves & Elves too, so that's cool. 5 races is enough (Human, 2 sub-human, dwarves & elves), just need to work out modifiers....

Reading what's on wiki has really got me interested! I don't like Hick's 'n Wiess -  but I may just order the series up!! (providing it won't spoil the game of course)


----------



## Lord_Raven88 (Mar 21, 2007)

I have to say that I absolutely love this series of books, and I've re-read the entire serries at least three times over the year.  So yeah I'm interested.

Regarding the magic for the Partyn's and Sarytn's you could use the system outlined in 'Elements and Magic' sourcebook.  Basically the Partyn's and Sartyn's could use the generic Mage class, the sourcebook allows characters to learn spell list (which is essentially one spell that scales over the 9 levels), the Mage then uses magic points to cast any combination of spells up to their MP limits (very much like Psionic characters).

There is no restrictions on what spell list can be learnt so characters could learn anything from the 'Fast Healing' list to the 'Dominate Creature' list.  

There are also character options for specialist mages who have a much narrower focus, such as on the elements.  This would also work for the Mensch, but they coud be limited to a certain level of spells (say 7th or 8th) to duplicate the fact that the Mensch weren't as powerful or versatile as the Partyn's and Sartyn's.  Also the Sartyn's and Partyn's didn't use material components to cast their spells.

Regarding Magic Items I seem to remember that the Partyn's used to carve 'death' runes on to various items (such as spears), these were then expended once activated.  This could be simulated by using the 'inscribe rune' feat (from Forgotten Realms).  

Other permanent magic items such as armour, potions (temporary tatoos), wondrous items could be crafted directly onto a person in the form of permanent protective/enhancement runes which occupy the normal item body slots. Perhaps these can be altered over time so that the xp invested into the old tatoo partially pays for any new upgrades/replacements.

Perhaps characters could receive a pool of 'rune points' each level (simiar to artificers craft points) to go towards the cost of such improvements.

Also I think you should allow for characters to determine how much they actually specialise in earning the Partyn rune magic, some would be like the Master of the Partyn's and be very powerful magic users (i.e. advancing in spells known each level) while others might split there time between learning magic and other skills such as fighting (Better BAB and advance is spells known even other levels), this is also covered in the Elements of Magic sourcebook via their re-worked paladin, ranger and bard classses.

Anywho that a just a few thoughts from me.


----------



## -SIN- (Mar 21, 2007)

Sounds good!


----------



## Lord_Raven88 (Mar 22, 2007)

In case you don't have the 'Elements of Magic' sourcebook I've cobbled together a few bits and pieces from the Unearthed Arcana to simulate my previous suggestions using readily available resources.

Options used from the Unearthed Arcana
· Arcane Domains
· Craft Points (Changed from the orginal amounts to equate to half the standard gold for PC's by level)
· Defence Bonus
· Spell Points

Domains
Domains can be chosen from any clerical or arcane domains.  New domains lists could aso be made along similar thematic lines.

Crafting
Partyns can enchant the runes that cover their various body slots in the same manner used to create other magical items.

To enchant an item or one of their body slots they must expend crafting points (CP) equal to 1/2 of the items market value in gp as well as 1/25 of the items market cost in XP.

If a 5th level Partyn Warrior wanted to enchant his body slot to provide a +1 enchantment bonus, then this cost him 500 CP and 40 XP (market value is 1000 gp).  When he gains another level the Partyn decides to upgrade his body slot protective runes to provide light fortification protection, this would normally cost 2000 CP and 160 XP.  Since he has already expended 500 CP and 40 XP he only has to expend a further 1500 CP and 120 XP to do this.

Money
Use crafting points in exchange for money, one crafting point equals two gold pieces value.  Crafting points could be exchanged with other Partyn's for services and equipment.

Defence Bonus
The defence bonus is a magical byproduct of a Partyn's magical runes. The defence bonus can be further enhanced via the usual rules for enchanting magical 'armour'.  This bonus can be bypassed via weapons enchanted thru rune magic.


----------



## Lord_Raven88 (Mar 25, 2007)

Bump

As this idea is too cool to die off so quickly!


----------



## Clutching Yggdrasil (Mar 25, 2007)

I <3 the Death Gate Cycle, my first real intro into fantasy novels, would totally be into a DG roleplay.  I agree with most of how Lord_Raven sees the mechanics of Sartan and Patryn magic with the possible exception of which rules set to apply.  I'd see mensch magic as generic PC wizards & sorcerers with a 20 level limit, and Sartan/Patryn magic as an ability set far beyond that.  Even to the powerful wizards of (what's the name of the Air element world?) the Sartan and Patryn were seen as gods.

If I remember correctly there are appendixes at the end of the various novels that explain how their magic works, and from what I recall their style is much more supportive of a freeform spell generation system then the Vancian fire & forget.  The Epic Magic spell generation system (available for free in the Epic SRD) would be a possible magic system as well, so long as the rules for research and spell/day limits were disregarded.  And only if you had a whole lotta faith in your ability to make on the fly decisions about what would work and wouldn't work. Generic or even D20 modern classes for the Sartan and Patrynly le with an automatically learned spell system attached would work better then trapping their magic within a class or skill system strata.  Such characters would be similar to Gestalt characters, making all PC's an effective 2 or 3 levels higher then their norm according to how easy you make it to cast spells.

Another possible avenue is to use what's provided in the novels as a focus for spell progression.  For Sartan rune magic that would be based on Perform (Runemagic) and for Patryn that'd be Craft (Runemagic)

*Spoiler Note*

The Death Gate Cylce describes P&S magic as able to draw upon the alternate possibilites as the source of their power, so it'd make sense IMO to allow them to be as versatile as possible.  Battles between these superpowers were described as being similar to a game of rock, paper, scissors; but with infinite choices.  It should be maintained however that resurrection of any kind creates serious problems, ala Hugh the Hand and/or Pyrans undead.

Possible feats include the ability to shapechange into a form based upon your magical abilities (ala Alfreds Dragon form) to the elves of Aerenal song based or soul based magic, to the world of Pyrans Necromantic abilities.



			
				Lord_Raven88 said:
			
		

> Bump
> 
> As this idea is too cool to die off so quickly!




I heartily agree, completely willing to help in any way needed.


----------



## Lord_Raven88 (Mar 26, 2007)

Clutching Yggdrasil said:
			
		

> I <3 the Death Gate Cycle, my first real intro into fantasy novels, would totally be into a DG roleplay.  I agree with most of how Lord_Raven sees the mechanics of Sartan and Patryn magic with the possible exception of which rules set to apply.  I'd see mensch magic as generic PC wizards & sorcerers with a 20 level limit, and Sartan/Patryn magic as an ability set far beyond that.  Even to the powerful wizards of (what's the name of the Air element world?) the Sartan and Patryn were seen as gods.
> 
> If I remember correctly there are appendixes at the end of the various novels that explain how their magic works, and from what I recall their style is much more supportive of a freeform spell generation system then the Vancian fire & forget.  The Epic Magic spell generation system (available for free in the Epic SRD) would be a possible magic system as well, so long as the rules for research and spell/day limits were disregarded.  And only if you had a whole lotta faith in your ability to make on the fly decisions about what would work and wouldn't work. Generic or even D20 modern classes for the Sartan and Patrynly le with an automatically learned spell system attached would work better then trapping their magic within a class or skill system strata.  Such characters would be similar to Gestalt characters, making all PC's an effective 2 or 3 levels higher then their norm according to how easy you make it to cast spells.
> 
> ...



As written in the books, the P&S are way above the normal elemental mensch spellcasters.  So the epic magic rues could perhaps be applied to them.

However playing in a RPG is very different from reading a novel, as you have to take into account game balance issues.  So it would really be up to Jemal (if he's still reading this forum) to decide on what best works for him.  

I guess it depends on whether P&S are born as epic level spellcasters, or is there skill in magic acquired over time.  I based my suggestions on the later premise, but either way works.


----------



## Jemal (Mar 27, 2007)

OF course I'm still here! I've been wanting this game off+on for Years.

I think I'd have to either A) Do away with the Sartan/Patryn Rune Magic thing, or B) Make it so that PC's can ONLY be Sartan or Patryn.  

As has been pointed out, the power gap between S/P and Mensch is like the power gap between Superman and a Marine.  Sure, the Marine could be the most powerful 'normal' human in existence, best trained, most intelligent, strongest, fastest, most armed to the teeth person alive.. But without Kryptonite (Or in this world, Chelestran water, which does essentially the same thing.) he hasn't a chance.  

On that note, I've been thinking, and I'm going to take a poll : Who thinks we SHOULD use the rune magic (Meaning you would be playing Sartan/Patryns), and who thinks we SHOULDN'T (Meaning we would just be in a similar world, but without the Sartan/Patryn Rune Magic thing).

If we did go with the S/P, I'd probably be using both Lord_Ravens ideas AND Yggdrasil's, as I've been thinking of both of those types of things anyways.

If we DON'T, it would be basically a D&D campaign set in this prison realm with some changes to make it 'feel' more the same.  I'd still go with something to Lord_Raven's body-slot item options.

And again, I'ld like to point out : You don't HAVE to know the series to be interested!!


----------



## Clutching Yggdrasil (Mar 27, 2007)

I'd definately prefer playing with the Sartan & Patryn as pc options.  Were you planning on most of the game taking place in The Labyrinth?


----------



## Jemal (Mar 27, 2007)

yes, it will be set pretty much completely in the Labyrinth, with the obvious goals being Survive and Escape.


----------



## Lord_Raven88 (Mar 27, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> yes, it will be set pretty much completely in the Labyrinth, with the obvious goals being Survive and Escape.



Surprisingly my vote is to play Sartyn's and Partyn's who can use rune magic.


----------



## Jemal (Mar 27, 2007)

Lord_Raven88 said:
			
		

> Surprisingly my vote is to play Sartyn's and Partyn's who can use rune magic.



Sartan and Patryn


----------



## Lord_Raven88 (Mar 28, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> Sartan and Patryn



Um yeah I vote for them too


----------



## krunchyfrogg (Mar 28, 2007)

I don't remember anybody wearing armor in the books, but Hugh the Hand gets into that Elven hiding suit at one point.  That, and a certain dagger are the only items I can remember.


----------



## Jemal (Mar 28, 2007)

Actually the Patryn use weapons all the time.. Arrows, Daggers, swords, etc.  They enchant them personally, that's one of the things we were talking about.  and the Armour would be more like the Bracers/Natural armour/Ring of Protection type, done by Enchanting their skin.

BTW the PC's would, I think probably have to be Patryn.


----------



## Jemal (Mar 29, 2007)

I'd also like to keep the # of PC's down, as that tends to speed things up a bit.. So far we've had 5 people (Other than myself) post in this thread - 

Lord Raven,
KrunchyFrogg,
Yggdrasil,
Shayuri,
and Sin.

Were you all interested in trying this game out?  If so, what type of character are you thinking? 

Now, as for how the Rune Magic would actually work .... I like the Skill check idea, it would also fit in well with making the Rune Magic similar to Epic Spells.  

OK, I think I've got it - 
When you want to cast a spell, you pick what you want it to do... If it's a fairly standard spell(IE it's from the PHB), it's easier b/c it's more structured, you've probably done/seen it before, thus you would make a lower DC check.  I'm still working on specifics for making stuff up..  I think I'll just base it almost exactly off of Epic Spells, but make them 'on the fly' kinda things.  Also, I would probably not allow most of the tricks usually used to lower the DC's.

As for how often you can do it... I'm thinking a Mana pool, you expend 1 to make a check, and you can expend mana on a 1 for 1 point basis to give a bonus to your check (Before rolling) as you push yourself to finish the job.  Can't spend more mana on a spell than your caster level.  I think I'll allow you to take 10.
MANA POOL - Add up all the spell-levels you could ordinarily cast in a day, counting 0-lvl as 1. (1 for each 1st or 0-lvl, 2 for each 2nd level, etc, and count your CHA/Int/Wis bonuses and Domain bonuses), and that's how much mana you have.

IE a 20th lvl sorceror with a 24 Charisma would have 310 Mana.  Whereas a 1st level Wizard with an 18 would have 5 mana.

If you are NOT a caster, pick a casting class.  You gain one level of effective casting in this class every even level of your character.  Also, you can expend Mana to temporarily gain a power of the class other than spellcasting that you could have at your level (1 mana per level required to have the ability.)  If the ability is something variable (Such as a bonus feat), it must be decided the first time it's used and cannot be changed.

If you ARE a caster, choose a few types of magic (Healing, Buffing, Transmutation, Boom spells, Enchantments, Nature, etc), and please choose types that are associated with your class (IE Warmages don't take Enchantment, Sorc/wiz stay away from Healing, Clerics/druids shouldn't choose Offensive magic, etc, though everyone can DO it, it's just harder for some).  The types of magic you choose are easier to do, and you gain bonuses depending on how many types you choose (Higher bonuses for specializing, obviously).

Metamagic Feats - Yes I'd allow them, and so that they'll work on EVERYTHING, including made-up spells that have no level, they just cost extra mana to add... Double the level adjustment.
No Persistant Spell, btw.


EX : Your secondary class is Wizard.. You are 10th level, so your wizard level is 5.  You have an 18 Intelligence.  You would have 20 Mana, and could temporarily gain their 5th level bonus feat (Say you choose Empower Spell) for 1 round by paying 5 mana.

As for the Equipment : 
You have 'body slot tattoos' (Head tatoo, Breast tatoo, wrist tattoos, etc, etc) comparing to each of the normal slots, and can enscribe yourself with powerful tatoos that mirror magical items. (Certain things aren't done, however, at least not as Items.  a lot of 'items' will have to be allowed or dissalowed on a case-by-case basis.  Basically, though, if it allows you to cast or activate a spell, no.  These should be permanent bonuses only, probably using the DMG table (AC bonus, Attack bonuses, skill bonuses, save bonuses, stat bonuses, etc).

the Tomes + Manuals that provide Inherent bonuses would work the same, except they wouldn't be books, just powerful tatoos you inscribed into your Heart-Rune.

All Patryn's Defensive runes give a +1 at 1st, and 1/3 levels after (2@4, 3@7, etc) Armour bonus (Can be enchanted as normal armour, no max dex or armour check penalty).

There are no Item Creation Feats except the following : Craft Tatoo and Inscribe Rune.  The first is a bonus feat for ALL Patryn, the second is what the Wizard gets at first level instead of Scribe Scoll, and can be taken in place of any bonus Item creation feat or by anybody with a caster level.

Craft Tatoo - You have a "craft" pool equal to the GP you would normally have at your level (Gaining the difference when you level up).  Crafting works as normal, but doesn't cost XP, you must follow the 'allowable powers' guidelines, as well as asking DM permission.  Time to craft is 1 day per 2000 GP worth.  You can only tatoo yourself.

Inscribe Rune - You can empower things other than yourself with magical tatoos, Enchanting Weapons, guarding doors, or even tatooing others.
In addition, your crafting now takes only 1 day/5000 Gp worth.

One more miscellaneous rule - No Flying.

I'm still pondering Level and Reason you're together.. Patryn tend to be Loners, but recently there have been some changes in the Labyrinth, Rumours that there was a great battle at the Final Gate, and that many new creatures are in the Labyrinth, a War is being fought near the Final Gate at the moment.  
There are two possible options I can think of - 
1) You've all heard of it and decided to band together to get there as quickly as possible.
2) You are members of a small city/town (some small civilization DOES exist in the labyrinth), and you stay around to keep the town safe, every once in a while heading out for supplies.



Obviously there would be a lot of "Ask the DM" stuff in this campaign, so I ask again.. What TYPE of characters would you *like* to play?


----------



## -SIN- (Mar 29, 2007)

I think I'd like to create a Patryn - they sound almost Athasian (Dark Sun). I'd probably steer more to warrior than caster, possibly a light/no armoured gladiator-esque, 'tumbling' fighter - likely to be unarmed/punch dagger wielding, using his magical feats to enhance his defence, preferring to bewilder his foes by literally running circles around them...

Maybe something like a spiked chain as a main/reach weapon...


----------



## Lord_Raven88 (Mar 29, 2007)

I'm keen on going a straight sorcerer spellcaster.

Have you had any thoughts on what level our characters would start out as.

Also I believe that the Labryinth has taught the Patryns the usefulness of working together as a group.  So I don't think it will be too unusual for us to work together in this fashion.


----------



## krunchyfrogg (Mar 29, 2007)

I'd be interested in a warrior type: Barbarian, Ranger, Fighter, or multiclass combo of any or all of them.


----------



## Jemal (Apr 4, 2007)

Allright, so there's 3 people interested in Playing then?  Anybody else wanna speak up on what they'd like to see before we go about character creation?  Yggdrasil/Shayuri, were you still interested?

I'm looking at I think mid level (8-14), I'll be going with the 'small band trying to make it out together' idea, and any weapons/armour you have has to be self-made and maintainable.

*On second thought, if you don't have Inscribe Rune, I'll still allow each character ONE magical weapon, following these rules : 
it must be made of either Cold Iron or Darkwood, depending on whether it's metal or wood, and it costs 10% extra for the Magic(EX : A +2 Cold Iron Long Sword would cost 11,130).

Still finalizing char. creation rules in my head.  I'll post them sometime in the next day or two if there are no further suggestions/comments/questions/requests before then.


----------



## -SIN- (Apr 4, 2007)

I think it might be worth listing the books we can use, or what we can use from each book - like feats from complete x, but no classes or spells etc...


----------



## Jemal (Apr 4, 2007)

that'll be in the char. Creation guidelines, but I usually include all the books I own/have access to, which is a fair chunk including core, all completes, spell compendium, PHB2, Dragon magic, some of the "Races Of", Draconomicon, Libris mortis, the two fiendish codex's, Vile Darkness, Exalted Deeds, and more (but no psionics)


----------



## -SIN- (Apr 5, 2007)

C'mon dude. Creation guidelines, Creation guidelines, Creation guidelines, Creation guidelines...

Gimme, gimme, gimme!!


----------



## Jemal (Apr 6, 2007)

OK, Assuming we've still got interested people, here's the char.creations : 
12th level
34 point buy (min 10 max 18).
Race : Patryn [+2 racial bonus to stat of choice; Bonus skills as human; bonus ability at every 5th level(Choose from Fighter/Metamagic/Item Creation feat OR +1d6 Sneak attack OR +1 to a stat); Bonus feat @1st - Craft Tatoo; Spot, Listen, and Spellcraft class skills; no multiclassing penalties, Mana Pool(See earlier post)].  NO templates
HP : Max at first, 3/4 (round down) for rest.
Classes/prestige/feats/spells : Any hardcover WizCo source so long as you run it by me first.  I have access to : PHB, PHB2, all Complete's, Spell Compendium, DMG/DMG2, Savage Species, Fiend Folio, Libris Mortis, Draconomicon, Book of aberations, Races of Dragon, Dragon Magic, Book of Vile Darkness, Book of Exalted Deeds, Dungeonscape, Fiendish codex's, Book of 9 Swords, Incarnum.  These I will be more likely to allow.
NO PSIONICS, NO VOWS, NO LEADERSHIP, and keep in mind the 'feel' of the Setting.  If you're not sure whether something would be acceptable, ask.

Equipment :  Details spread over last couple posts.  Any item that is not a straight "PLUS X to Something" will need approval.  I will be allowing use of the DMG item creation table formula's to figure out costs (+X to skill of choice, etc) and since we're not using 'body slots' per se, body slot affinities will be unnecessary.

Both Equipment and Magic are detailed in a recent post.  Further questions just ask.

SO, who's in?


----------



## krunchyfrogg (Apr 6, 2007)

would a Monk work?

I'm in, either way.


----------



## Shayuri (Apr 6, 2007)

Oh hey. Sorry all...I'd posted just to mouth off about how low magic could be done. I've never read any of the Death Gate books, so I have absolutely no clue what the setting is and so on. It sounds like fun, but I'm in enough games right now I'd probably better pass on this one. 

Thanks though!


----------



## -SIN- (Apr 6, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> SO, who's in?




ME!, ME!, ME!


----------



## Jemal (Apr 7, 2007)

A Monk would work fine.

Shayuri - that's too bad, the feel is pretty easy to get, and I won't be basing any events out of the book, so there's no prior knowledge required.


----------



## -SIN- (Apr 7, 2007)

So let me get this straight, IF i pick 12 levels in warrior classes, I gain 6 levels in any mage class too - for spell casting ability only, right?

So if I were a straight 12th lvl fighter, I'd still be able to cast any spell, dependant on whether I've got the Mana / make the DC check?...

Sorry, servere sleep deprevation is making my head go fuzzy...


----------



## Jemal (Apr 7, 2007)

Yep, spellcasting as a 6th level mage-type of your choice.  You'd have less mana, and wouldn't be able to do some of the harder stuff, but you'ld still be able to sling fireballs, heal, etc, and could gain their other class abilities temporarily for extra mana. (EX : Warmage you would gain Warmage edge for one spell by paying an additional Mana.  Wizard you'd gain the bonus feats for one round/spell/whatever amount of time makes sense depending on the feat.)


----------



## Lord_Raven88 (Apr 7, 2007)

I'm in of course, so I'll look at creating a character to submit


----------



## -SIN- (Apr 7, 2007)

Ok, rough outline... Let me know what you think... Oh, and please don't think 'stereo type' swashbuckler - y'know, glossy boots, tight pants, frilly shirt thing - It's more of the 'embodiment of daring & panache' and the 'skill, finess & prowess' elements I'm attracted to. Anyway, here...

[sblock]

NO-NAME...
Male Patryn Scout 5 / Swashbuckler 7
_Neutral Evil_



Strength 23 (+7) [Base=17, +4 Belt of Giant Strength, +2 Gauntlets of Ogre Power Tattoo's]
Dexterity 24 (+8) [Base=18, +6 Boots of Dexterity Tattoo]
Constitution 10 (+0) 
Intelligence 20 (+5) [Base=14, +6 Headband of Intellect Tattoo]
Wisdom 10 (+0) 
Charisma 14 (+2) 

Size: Medium 
Height: 5' 10" 
Weight: 180 lb 
Skin: Tan 
Eyes: Gray 
Hair: None 

Total Hit Points: To be worked out...

Speed: 50 feet [scout, Boots of Springing & Striding Tattoo] 

Armor Class: 24 = 10 +8 [dexterity] +5 [Protection Tattoo] +1 [Padded Armour] 

Touch AC: 23
Flat-footed: 16
Initiative modifier: +11 = +8 [dexterity] +1 [scout] +2 [quick reconnoiter] 
Fortitude save: +16 = 6 [base] +1 [scout] +5 [Cloak of Resistance Tattoo]
Reflex save: +20 = 6 [base] +8 [dexterity] +1 [swashbuckler] +5 [Cloak of Resistance Tattoo] 
Will save: +8 = 3 [base] +5 [Cloak of Resistance Tattoo]  

Attack (handheld): +17/+12 = 10 [base] +7 [strength] 
   Weapon Finesse: +18/+13 = 10 [base] +8 [dexterity]  
Attack (unarmed): +17/+12 = 10 [base] +7 [strength]  
Attack (missile): +18/+13 = 10 [base] +8 [dexterity]  
Grapple check: +17/+12 = 10 [base] +7 [strength]  


Light load:86 lb. or less
Medium load:87-173 lb.
Heavy load:174-260 lb.
Lift over head:260 lb.
Lift off ground:520 lb.
Push or drag:1300 lb.

Languages: Common Dwarven Elven  


Punching Dagger [1d4, crit x3, 1 lb., light, piercing or slashing]

Kukri [1d4, crit 18-20/x2, 2 lb., light, slashing]

Spiked Armor [1d6, crit x2., light, piercing]

Spiked Chain [2d4, crit x2, 10 lb., two-handed, piercing]

Padded Armour [light; +1 AC; max dex +8; check penalty 0; 10 lb.] 


Feats:

Combat Reflexes  
Dodge  
Mobility  
Exotic Weapon Proficiency Weapon: Spiked Chain  
Quick Reconnoiter  (Comp Adventurer)
Stealthy  
Weapon Finesse  
(B)Sneak Attack (2D6)

Skills

Appraise Int 2 =  +2   
Balance Dex* 14 =  +4 +8 +2 [tumble]  
Bluff Cha 12 =  +2 +10  
Climb Str* 8 =  +3 +5  
Concentration Con 0 =  +0   
Craft_1 Int 2 =  +2   
Craft_2 Int 2 =  +2   
Craft_3 Int 2 =  +2   
Diplomacy Cha 14 =  +2 +8 +2 [bluff] +2 [sense motive]  
Disguise Cha 2 =  +2   
Escape Artist Dex* 9 =  +4 +5  
Forgery Int 2 =  +2   
Gather Information Cha 2 =  +2   
Heal Wis 0 =  +0   
Hide Dex* 16 =  +4 +10 +2 [stealthy]  
Intimidate Cha 4 =  +2  +2 [bluff]  
Jump Str* 24 =  +3 +10 +2 [tumble] +4 [speed 40] +5 [Tattoo of spring & stride]  
Knowledge (geography) Int 7 =  +2 +5  
Knowledge (nature) Int 9 =  +2 +5 +2 [survival]  
Listen Wis 5 =  +0 +5  
Move Silently Dex* 16 =  +4 +10 +2 [stealthy]  
Perform_1 Cha 2 =  +2   
Perform_2 Cha 2 =  +2   
Perform_3 Cha 2 =  +2   
Perform_4 Cha 2 =  +2   
Perform_5 Cha 2 =  +2   
Ride Dex 4 =  +4   
Search Int 7 =  +2 +5  
Sense Motive Wis 8 =  +0 +8  
Spot Wis 8 =  +0 +8  
Survival Wis 5 =  +0 +5  
Swim Str** 8 =  +3 +5  
Tumble Dex* 16 =  +4 +10 +2 [jump]  
Use Rope Dex 4 =  +4   


* = check penalty for wearing armor

Bluff >=5 ranks gives +2 on disguise checks to act in character.
Escape Artist >=5 ranks gives +2 on use rope checks for bindings.
Know Geography >=5 ranks gives +2 on checks to avoid getting lost or into hazards.
Know Nature >=5 ranks gives +2 on survival checks above ground.
Search >=5 ranks gives +2 on survival checks while tracking.


Patryn:
Race. Adjustments
+2 charisma
2 bonus abilities [5th: +1D6 Sneak Attack, 10th: +2D6 Sneak Attack]
Craft Tattoo bonus feat [4,750 points]
Mana Pool: 35 [Sorc: 6/6/5/3, +2CHA, +2INT]

Class details

Swashbuckler:

Free weapon finesse feat

+1 on reflex saves (already included)(level 2)

Insightful strike (level 3)
Dodge bonus +1 (level 5)
Acrobatic Charge (level 7)

Scout:

Core class from "Complete Adventurer"

Armor class bonuses after moving are not listed above.

Level 1: Skirmish (+1d6), trapfinding

Level 2: Battle fortitude +1, uncanny dodge

Level 3: Fast movement +10 feet, skirmish (1d6, +1 AC)

Level 4: Bonus feat (already included)

Level 5: Evasion, skirmish (+2d6, +2 AC)



Equipment:

Backpack
Candle
Chalk
Flint and steel
Mirror
Rope (50', silk) x1
Sacks x2
Sewing needle
Signal whistle
Signet ring
Waterskins x2
Whetstone

Tattoo's:

Head: +6 INT (Headband of Intellect +6, 16,000 points)
Legs: +6 DEX (Gloves of Dexterity +6, 16,000 points)
Arms: + 4 STR (Belt of Giant Strength +4, 8,000 points)
Chest: +5 All Saves (Cloak of Resistance +5, 13,500 points)
Back: +5 AC (Ring of Protection +5, 25,000 points)
Feet: + 10' move, +5 jump (Boots of Striding and Springing, 2,750 points)
Hands: +2 STR (Gauntlets of Ogre Power, 2,000 points)


Let me know your likes/dislikes, or if there's anything you don't want to allow...

[/sblock]


----------



## Jemal (Apr 7, 2007)

Looks good so far, don't forget to figure out what tatoos he's got.


----------



## -SIN- (Apr 13, 2007)

I'm a little confused with a couple of things...

1st, the tat's:

The SRD states that Item creation costs are (usually) half the market value in gold, plus 1/25th of the price in xp.

As level 12 I have 88k in gold right?, and another 88,000 points as xp costs? Or would I combine the two and subtract from my gold?

So a belt of giant str +4 would be 8,000gp + 640xp?

secondly...

Also, you say that I can choose a bonus ability every 5 levels, giving sneak attack as an example - where can I choose from, or can I choose from any class as long as I 'pass' the level requirement - i.e. at 5th I could take (one of) wild empathy, combat style, endurance, animal companion or 2 species enemies from the ranger class?...


HELP...


----------



## Jemal (Apr 13, 2007)

-SIN- said:
			
		

> I'm a little confused with a couple of things...
> 
> 1st, the tat's:
> 
> ...



Reposted : 


> Craft Tatoo - You have a "craft" pool equal to the GP you would normally have at your level (Gaining the difference when you level up). *Crafting works as normal, but doesn't cost XP*, you must follow the 'allowable powers' guidelines, as well as asking DM permission. Time to craft is 1 day per 2000 GP worth. You can only tatoo yourself.



there is no actual "GP" in this world, you have 88,000 'Craft Points', and gain more by leveling up.  The belt would cost you 8,000 'craft' points, you don't need to spend xp.  You're level 12 with minimum xp.

This essentially means that all the characters have double the effective gold, but you're limited in what you can spend it on (As noted in a previous post).



> Also, you say that I can choose a bonus ability every 5 levels, giving sneak attack as an example - where can I choose from, or can I choose from any class as long as I 'pass' the level requirement - i.e. at 5th I could take (one of) wild empathy, combat style, endurance, animal companion or 2 species enemies from the ranger class?...



I gave the entire list.  bonus ability at every 5th level(*Choose from* Fighter/Metamagic/Item Creation feat OR +1d6 Sneak attack OR +1 to a stat); 
they aren't examples, that's the list.


----------



## Jemal (Apr 13, 2007)

How's everyone else coming along?


----------



## Lord_Raven88 (Apr 13, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> How's everyone else coming along?



I'm still here, I'll try and put together a character concept early next week.

At this stage I'm thinking of playing a Sorcerer 6 / Sartan Blooded 6. The Sartan Blooded is a renamed Fiend Blooded PrC from Heroes of Horror.  

Since some Sartan were put into the Labyrinth along with the Patryn's they eventually breed with the other prisoners.  So many Patryn's would have some Sartan blood in them.  The Sartan Blooded PrC would be someone who accepts and embraces their unique heritage, by doing so they develop many strange and potent powers.


----------



## -SIN- (Apr 14, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> How's everyone else coming along?




I'm getting a little worried to be honest. Worried that we may be in for a severe ass kicking. Creation guidelines alone allow for some SERIOUS builds... Maybe I'm just too used to playing underpowered characters? 

Not complaining in the slightest - I think this game is going to be incredible once we kick off!!

Heck, I might even make a homebrew of it myself - I especially like the magic rules - they rock!


----------



## -SIN- (Apr 14, 2007)

Ok, getting there...

[sblock]



NO-NAME...
Male Patryn Scout 5 / Swashbuckler 7
Neutral Evil



Strength 23 (+7) [Base=17, +4 Belt of Giant Strength, +2 Gauntlets of Ogre Power Tattoo's]
Dexterity 24 (+8) [Base=18, +6 Boots of Dexterity Tattoo]
Constitution 10 (+0) 
Intelligence 20 (+5) [Base=14, +6 Headband of Intellect Tattoo]
Wisdom 10 (+0) 
Charisma 14 (+2) 

Size: Medium 
Height: 5' 10" 
Weight: 180 lb 
Skin: Tan 
Eyes: Gray 
Hair: None 

Total Hit Points: To be worked out...

Speed: 50 feet [scout, Boots of Springing & Striding Tattoo] 

Armor Class: 24 = 10 +8 [dexterity] +5 [Protection Tattoo] +1 [Padded Armour] 

Touch AC: 23
Flat-footed: 16
Initiative modifier: +11 = +8 [dexterity] +1 [scout] +2 [quick reconnoiter] 
Fortitude save: +16 = 6 [base] +1 [scout] +5 [Cloak of Resistance Tattoo]
Reflex save: +20 = 6 [base] +8 [dexterity] +1 [swashbuckler] +5 [Cloak of Resistance Tattoo] 
Will save: +8 = 3 [base] +5 [Cloak of Resistance Tattoo] 

Attack (handheld): +17/+12 = 10 [base] +7 [strength] 
Weapon Finesse: +18/+13 = 10 [base] +8 [dexterity] 
Attack (unarmed): +17/+12 = 10 [base] +7 [strength] 
Attack (missile): +18/+13 = 10 [base] +8 [dexterity] 
Grapple check: +17/+12 = 10 [base] +7 [strength] 


Light load:86 lb. or less
Medium load:87-173 lb.
Heavy load:174-260 lb.
Lift over head:260 lb.
Lift off ground:520 lb.
Push or drag:1300 lb.

Languages: Common Dwarven Elven 


Punching Dagger [1d4, crit x3, 1 lb., light, piercing or slashing]

Kukri [1d4, crit 18-20/x2, 2 lb., light, slashing]

Spiked Armor [1d6, crit x2., light, piercing]

Spiked Chain [2d4, crit x2, 10 lb., two-handed, piercing]

Padded Armour [light; +1 AC; max dex +8; check penalty 0; 10 lb.] 


Feats:

Combat Reflexes 
Dodge 
Mobility 
Exotic Weapon Proficiency Weapon: Spiked Chain 
Quick Reconnoiter (Comp Adventurer)
Stealthy 
Weapon Finesse 
(B)Sneak Attack (2D6)

Skills

Appraise Int 2 = +2 
Balance Dex* 14 = +4 +8 +2 [tumble] 
Bluff Cha 12 = +2 +10 
Climb Str* 8 = +3 +5 
Concentration Con 0 = +0 
Craft_1 Int 2 = +2 
Craft_2 Int 2 = +2 
Craft_3 Int 2 = +2 
Diplomacy Cha 14 = +2 +8 +2 [bluff] +2 [sense motive] 
Disguise Cha 2 = +2 
Escape Artist Dex* 9 = +4 +5 
Forgery Int 2 = +2 
Gather Information Cha 2 = +2 
Heal Wis 0 = +0 
Hide Dex* 16 = +4 +10 +2 [stealthy] 
Intimidate Cha 4 = +2 +2 [bluff] 
Jump Str* 24 = +3 +10 +2 [tumble] +4 [speed 40] +5 [Tattoo of spring & stride] 
Knowledge (geography) Int 7 = +2 +5 
Knowledge (nature) Int 9 = +2 +5 +2 [survival] 
Listen Wis 5 = +0 +5 
Move Silently Dex* 16 = +4 +10 +2 [stealthy] 
Perform_1 Cha 2 = +2 
Perform_2 Cha 2 = +2 
Perform_3 Cha 2 = +2 
Perform_4 Cha 2 = +2 
Perform_5 Cha 2 = +2 
Ride Dex 4 = +4 
Search Int 7 = +2 +5 
Sense Motive Wis 8 = +0 +8 
Spot Wis 8 = +0 +8 
Survival Wis 5 = +0 +5 
Swim Str** 8 = +3 +5 
Tumble Dex* 16 = +4 +10 +2 [jump] 
Use Rope Dex 4 = +4 


* = check penalty for wearing armor

Bluff >=5 ranks gives +2 on disguise checks to act in character.
Escape Artist >=5 ranks gives +2 on use rope checks for bindings.
Know Geography >=5 ranks gives +2 on checks to avoid getting lost or into hazards.
Know Nature >=5 ranks gives +2 on survival checks above ground.
Search >=5 ranks gives +2 on survival checks while tracking.


Patryn:
Race. Adjustments
+2 charisma
2 bonus abilities [5th: +1D6 Sneak Attack, 10th: +2D6 Sneak Attack]
Craft Tattoo bonus feat [4,750 points]
Mana Pool: 35 [Sorc: 6/6/5/3, +2CHA, +2INT]

Class details

Swashbuckler:

Free weapon finesse feat

+1 on reflex saves (already included)(level 2)

Insightful strike (level 3)
Dodge bonus +1 (level 5)
Acrobatic Charge (level 7)

Scout:

Core class from "Complete Adventurer"

Armor class bonuses after moving are not listed above.

Level 1: Skirmish (+1d6), trapfinding

Level 2: Battle fortitude +1, uncanny dodge

Level 3: Fast movement +10 feet, skirmish (1d6, +1 AC)

Level 4: Bonus feat (already included)

Level 5: Evasion, skirmish (+2d6, +2 AC)



Equipment:

Backpack
Candle
Chalk
Flint and steel
Mirror
Rope (50', silk) x1
Sacks x2
Sewing needle
Signal whistle
Signet ring
Waterskins x2
Whetstone

Tattoo's:

Head: +6 INT (Headband of Intellect +6, 16,000 points)
Legs: +6 DEX (Gloves of Dexterity +6, 16,000 points)
Arms: + 4 STR (Belt of Giant Strength +4, 8,000 points)
Chest: +5 All Saves (Cloak of Resistance +5, 13,500 points)
Back: +5 AC (Ring of Protection +5, 25,000 points)
Feet: + 10' move, +5 jump (Boots of Striding and Springing, 2,750 points)
Hands: +2 STR (Gauntlets of Ogre Power, 2,000 points)


Let me know your likes/dislikes, or if there's anything you don't want to allow...


[/sblock]

I take it the 'magic' item we are allowed comes straight out of our money? or do we need to create that too - as in have enough points from the tattoo crafting to use as xp?

Also you wrote: All Patryn's Defensive runes give a +1 at 1st, and 1/3 levels after (2@4, 3@7, etc) Armour bonus (Can be enchanted as normal armour, no max dex or armour check penalty).

I don't get what you mean - as in additional +'s?


----------



## Jemal (Apr 14, 2007)

-SIN- said:
			
		

> I take it the 'magic' item we are allowed comes straight out of our money? or do we need to create that too - as in have enough points from the tattoo crafting to use as xp?
> 
> Also you wrote: All Patryn's Defensive runes give a +1 at 1st, and 1/3 levels after (2@4, 3@7, etc) Armour bonus (Can be enchanted as normal armour, no max dex or armour check penalty).
> 
> I don't get what you mean - as in additional +'s?




The Magic Items you're allowed are all tatoos you've crafted yourself, coming out of your 'craft pool', and as I've stated before (And in response to someone elses question), follow the normal guidelines for crafting magical items EXCEPT they take 1 day/2000 'market value', and do NOT cost XP.

Hence, a Tatoo of strength + 6 would cost 8,000 Craft points and would take 8 days to craft (Albeit you would have done all your starting tatoos before the campaign starts).

As for the 'armour bonus', It's the same as if your character where wearing Armour (With no max dex, no spell failure, no armour check penalty, and doesn't count as wearing armour for class abilities such as monk) which gives an armour bonus = 1 @ first level, +2 @ 4th, +3 @ 7th, +4@10th.  It can be enchanted by tatoos as though it were 'armour' and does not stack with 'bracers of armour'(which are also an armour bonus).  
EX : you could spend 12,500 craft points to add a +2 enhancement onto your 'armour', giving it +6 AC, and add Moderate Fortification.  This makes your armour tatoos effectively "+2, Moderate Fortification armour"  (Market value 25,000 GP.  takes 13 days and costs 12,500 craft points)


----------



## Jemal (Apr 14, 2007)

-SIN- said:
			
		

> I'm getting a little worried to be honest. Worried that we may be in for a severe ass kicking. Creation guidelines alone allow for some SERIOUS builds... Maybe I'm just too used to playing underpowered characters?
> 
> Not complaining in the slightest - I think this game is going to be incredible once we kick off!!
> 
> Heck, I might even make a homebrew of it myself - I especially like the magic rules - they rock!




Well, they did believe they were GODS for a reason.. And then the Labyrinth DID kinda kick their butts.. Yes the characters will be inherently more powerful than base D&D, HOWEVER, I've allready limited that power to things I can control (no flying, no special items that don't grant straight bonuses, etc).
And yes, your opponents will also be fairly powerful.  but the main problem will be when you have to get past entire tribes of Wolfen, as I'm expecting you guys to be able to take about 2 of them each without too much trouble.


----------



## -SIN- (Apr 14, 2007)

Is the character ok at the moment? Checkout the tat's, I don't think there should be any probs, but any suggestions would be welcome...

Also, would it be possible to craft an 'invulnerability' tat - DR 5/magic ? and at what cost?

BTW, any hint at as to what AC I should try to get? As is, if I move 10' in combat, I get an AC of 26? Good enough? I can tweak it...

You said that we could all have 1 magic item (cold iron/darkwood) - I meant this... Gold or Craft?

Sorry for askin' 20 questions dude.


----------



## Jemal (Apr 15, 2007)

Magic Weapon Reference:







> If you don't have Inscribe Rune, you get one weapon, though it must be made of either Cold Iron or Darkwood, depending on whether it's metal or wood, and it costs 10% extra for the Magic(EX : A +2 Cold Iron Long Sword would cost 11,130).



AH, I see.. This would be the "equivalent gold" cost, thus you'ld halve it for Crafting XP (The example weapon would cost 5,565 Craft points), since you don't have 'gold', per se.

*Alternately, i will allow the "Magic Weapon" to be inscribed on YOU, to account for unarmed strikes, in which case instead of it being cold iron/Dark wood and costing 10%, it isn't Halved, AND costs 10% EXTRA (Thus a +2 Unarmed Strike would cost 8,800 Craft points)

As for AC.. lets see, at this level, and considering the variant rules, I'd say an attack bonus for a fighter type should be between 16 and 22(22+ being considered great), and AC between 25-32.  32+ would be considered great.

Now, as to your character - 
First, Your Stats don't seem to add up.. could you point out where your +2 racial and the 3 level points are, maybe that'll clear it up.
The 'feet' tatoo should be leg, though that's not a mechanical issue.
The +6 stat tatoos should be 18,000, not 16,000 (36/2=18).
Unfortunately, both the scout's +10 speed and the Boots +10 speed are 'Enhancement bonuses', which do not stack with each other.  The only class I can think off off the top of my head that gains a stackable bonus to speed is Barbarian, which gives un-named.

Now, a couple things RE: AC.  First, you didn't add the Patryn Racial (level-based) bonus.  Second, this may sound a bit twinky, but it's less expensive to get multiple smaller items than one big item.. if you swapped the +5 deflection for say +3 deflection and +3 Natural Armour, it would give 1 more AC, and cost LESS than the +5 deflection.  A +4 deflection and +3 natural would cost the exact same as the +5 deflection.  That would give you a Total AC of 30. (32 using Skirmish).  Also, you'd probably be better off ditching the Padded Armour and going instead for Deflection+3, Natural Armour +3, Armour(as bracers) +3. total cost: 22,500.  AC: 31(33 with skirmish).

Also, I just realized that I called the Patryn's AC bonus an "armour" bonus, which would cause it to not stack with actual armour, so I'm going to change it to a Natural Armour bonus instead, which can be 'enhanced' (cost as an Amulet of Natural Armour).  If you want to wear armour, I'll allow any LIGHT armour, as Patryn's can't really get ahold of too much smithing equipment to get Full Plate/Chain Mail.


----------



## Jemal (Apr 15, 2007)

Krunchyfrog and Clutching Yggdrasil, are you still in?  Starting to get lonely in here...


----------



## -SIN- (Apr 15, 2007)

Ok, stats...

Originally
[sblock]
Strength 16
Dexterity 16
Constitution 10 
Intelligence 14
Wisdom 10  
Charisma 12

total 34 pts[/sblock]
Racial & Level
[sblock]
Strength 17 [+ 1 @ 4th]
Dexterity 18 [+1 @ 8th, +1@12th]
Constitution 10
Intelligence 14
Wisdom 10  
Charisma 14 [+2 Racial]
[/sblock]

Reworking the rest at the moment...


----------



## Lord_Raven88 (Apr 18, 2007)

Okay below is the character that I'm working on.

*Questions*
Also what use will Knowledge(Arcana & Religion) and Spellcraft be put to.  If we ever get to Epic levels will these be important in determining how many spells we can cast.  
Are we using the Spellcraft skill or the Craft(runes) skill to determine if we succeed in casting spells.
What level spells are we able to cast up to

[sblock=Character Submission(Work in Progress)]
	
	



```
Solan the LVIII
Patryn [url=http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3]Archivist[/url] 3 / Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 6

Alignment: Neutral Evil
Size: Medium
Type: Humanoid
Base Speed: 30

Str: 10 (+0)  2 pts
Dex: 14 (+2)  6 pts
Con: 20 (+5)  6 pts +6 enhancement
Int: 28 (+9) 10 pts +2 Racial +3 level +1 bonus +6 enhancement
Wis: 14 (+2)  6 pts
Cha: 12 (+1)  4 pts

HP: 102 (9d4 + 3d6+ +60)

AC: 22 (10 base +2 Dex +7 nat +3 def)

Saves: 
For: +16 ( 6 Base +5 Con +5 resist)
Ref: +11 ( 4 Base +2 Dex +5 resist)
Wil: +18 (11 Base +2 Wis +5 resist)

Init: +6

Base attack bonus: +5

Attacks: 
?

Skills                 Total     Ranks   Stats    Misc
Appraise		 9        0.0      9        0
Balance			 2        0.0      2        0
Bluff			 1        0.0      1        0
Climb			 0        0.0      0        0
Concentration		20       15.0      5        0
Craft (Runes)		34       15.0      9       10
Diplomacy		 1        0.0      1        0
Disguise		 1        0.0      1        0
Escape Artist		 2        0.0      2        0
Forgery			 9        0.0      9        0
Gather Information	 1        0.0      1        0
Heal			 2        0.0      2        0
Hide			 2        0.0      2        0
Intimidate		 1        0.0      1        0
Jump			 0        0.0      0        0
Know(Arcana)		24       15.0      9        0
Know(Dungeoneering)	16        7.0      9        0
Know(History)		16        7.0      9        0
Know(Nature)		16        7.0      9        0
Know(Planes)		16        7.0      9        0
Know(Religion)		24       15.0      9        0
Listen			10        8.0      2        0
Move Silently		 2        0.0      2        0
Perform			 1        0.0      1        0
Ride			 2        0.0      2        0
Search			 9        0.0      9        0
Sense Motive		 2        0.0      2        0
Spellcraft		24       15.0      9        0
Spot			10        8.0      2        0
Survival		 2        0.0      2        0
Swim			 0        0.0      0        0
Use Rope		 2        0.0      2        0


Feats
1  - Improved Initiative
   - Craft Tatoo (bonus)
   - Inscribe Runes (bonus)
3  - Empower Spell
5  - Corrupt Spell (bonus ability)
6  - Searing Spell 
9  - Malign Spell Focus
10 - +1 Intelligence (bonus ability)
12 - Maximise Spell

Languages: Patryn, Sartan, ?, ?, ?, ?, ?, ? 

Equipment 16500CP
Head: +6 Intelligence (18000cp)
Eyes: 
Neck: 
Torso: +5 Resistance (12500cp)
Body: +3 Natural Armour(9000cp)
Belt: +6 Constitution (18000cp)
Cloak: 
Arms: 
Hands: +10 Craft[Runes] (5000cp)
Ring1: +3 Defection Bonus(9000cp)
Ring2: 
Feet: 

Other Items
Travelers Outfit 5lb

Weight Carried: 5lbs 
Carrying Capacity: Light(33 lb), Medium(31-66lb), Heavy(67-100lb)
```
[sblock=Patryn Abilities]
Abilities: +2 racial bonus to any one stat
Skills: Bonus skills as a human, Spot Listen and Spellcraft are always class skills
Bonus Ability: One bonus ability at every 5th level. Choose from Fighter/Metamagic/Item Creation feat OR +1d6 Sneak attack OR +1 to a stat.
Defensive Runes: +4 natural armour
Bonus Feat: Craft Tatoo
[/sblock]

[sblock=Archivist Abilities]
Bonus Feat: Inscribe Runes
Dark Knowledge: Tactics 4/day.  Can call upon knowledge of abberations, elementals, magical beast, outsiders, or undead.  Using dark knowledge requires an appropriate knowledge check (DC15).  +1 bonus to attack rolls against creatures if successful, the archivist recieves a further +1 bonus for every 10 points that he beats the DC check by.
Lore Mastery: +2 bonus to all decipher script checks and to all checks of any one knowledge skill of his choice.
[/sblock]

[sblock=Wizard Abilities]
Bonus Feat: Inscribe Runes
Summon Familiar:
[/sblock]

Height: 6'
Weight: 160 lbs
Eyes: Cobolt
Hair: Brown with white tips
Skin: Bronze

Appearance:
Solan is a lean hawk-nosed handsome man of above average height.

Background:
When the Labrynth was first costructed Patryns weren't the only prisoners interred there.  Infact any Sartan who disagreed with the Councils decision to sunder the world (and in the process kill millions of innocent mensch) were also thrown into the Labrynth with the councils hated foe, the Patryns.

Over time the minority group of Sartans were fully incorporated into the larger Patryn population, as former petty rivalies were soon put aside as the two groups were jointly forced to fight for survival inside of their harsh prison.

Solan is a descendant of both of these groups, and for generations all of his male ancestors have named Solan in honour of the original Sartan prisoner.  Not because that the believe that their Sartan ancestory is more important than their Patryn ancestory.  Rather in recognistion of what can be achieved when enemies put aside their differences and learn to work together.
[/sblock]


----------



## Jemal (Apr 18, 2007)

Lord_Raven88 said:
			
		

> Okay below is the character that I'm working on.
> 
> *Questions*
> Also what use will Knowledge(Arcana & Religion) and Spellcraft be put to.  If we ever get to Epic levels will these be important in determining how many spells we can cast.
> ...



Good Questions.  I'm basing your magics off of the Craft skill (I believe that's what I said earlier, right?), that would also be the skill used for determination of epic spells(replacing both knowledge AND spellcraft).  

Knowledges 
Knowledge: Religion is nonexistant b/c patryn's don't believe in higher powers than themselves, and Knowledge: Arcana is un-needed.   Most Knowledges would be un-needed in fact... I'm picturing that you'll just know what you know.  If you think your character would know something, ask me, and based off of background/# of gates/etc, I'll tell you what I think you should know.
The only two that You'd need/want ranks in would be : 
Knowledge: The Planes, giving you a knowledge of what's beyond the labyrinth (the 4 menshc worlds, the nexus, and Death's gate).
Knowledge: Labyrinth, giving you info about various monsters/etc within the labyrinth (Since I'll be using some new made up monsters that never appeared in the books, and conceivably your characters may know stuff about them).

As for max level of castable spell - Anything with an aproximate power level equal to whatever your 'class' could cast normally. 

**IMPORTANT**
[sblock=Review and update of the Magic System]
When you want to cast a spell, you pick what you want it to do.  If it's a fairly standard spell(IE it's from the PHB), it's easier b/c it's more structured, you've probably done/seen it before, thus you would make a lower DC check.  It's based off of Epic Spells, but make them 'on the fly' kinda things. Also, not allowing most of the tricks usually used to lower the DC's on Epic Spells.

As for how often you can do it... I'm thinking a Mana pool, you expend 1 to make a check, and you can expend mana on a 1 for 1 point basis to give a bonus to your check (Before rolling) as you push yourself to finish the job. Can't spend more mana on a spell than your caster level, though you CAN take 10.
The first time you use a (non-PHB) spell, you won't know the DC, so you'll have to decide you mana Blindly.  After the first, you'll know how hard it is, and it will get easier with time.

For spells from the PHB, you can cast any spell that would normally be available to your casting class (If does not appear on your class list, but is from the PHB, you can cast it as if it were 1 lvl higher than the highest level any class gets it at.)
EX: A sorceror could treat Heal as an 8th level spell, Mass Heal as a 10th level spell
EX 2: A Cleric would treat Fireball(If it wasn't in one of their domains) as a 4th level spell.

You still can't cast a spell that breaks the rules (No Flying or intradimensional travel, among others.  Always ask first if you're iffy).
DC's will be 5 + (spell level+1) squared.  (EX: Fireball = DC 21 craft check, 

As for the non-PHB spells, I'll decide their DC based off whether they're in your classes 'type', what you want them to do (Be as detailed or vague as you like, from "12d4+12 slashing damage as the wind slices them" to "I blow rocks at them, pummeling them for massive damage"), and what 'effective spell level' I think they are, as well as how "Probable" it is to happen based on the situation. (either of the examples would be easier outdoors than in a closed room)

MANA POOL - Add up all the spell-levels you could ordinarily cast in a day, counting 0-lvl as 1. (1 for each 1st or 0-lvl, 2 for each 2nd level, etc, and count your CHA/Int/Wis bonuses and Domain bonuses), and that's how much mana you have.

IE a 20th lvl sorceror with a 24 Charisma would have 310 Mana. Whereas a 1st level Wizard with an 18 would have 5 mana.

NON CASTERS WITH SPELLS: 
If you are NOT a caster, pick a casting class. You gain one level of effective casting in this class every _even_ level of your character. Also, you can expend Mana to temporarily gain a power of the class other than spellcasting that you could have at your level (1 mana per level required to have the ability.) If the ability is something variable (Such as a bonus feat), it must be decided the first time it's used and cannot be changed.  

EX: If you choose Warmage, at lvl 14 you could cast spells and have mana as a 7th lvl warmage, could gain use of their Warmage Edge ability for 1 extra mana(per use), or Sudden Empower (7 mana, usable 1/day).
EX2 : Your secondary class is Wizard.. If are 10th level, your effective wizard level is 5. You have an 18 Intelligence. You would have 20 Mana, and could temporarily gain their 5th level bonus feat (Say you choose Empower Spell) for 1 round by paying 5 mana.  

ACTUAL CASTERS:
If you DO have levels in a casting class, choose 1 or more types of magic (Healing, Buffing, Transmutation, Boom spells, Enchantments, Nature, etc), and please choose types that are associated with your class (IE Warmages don't take Enchantment, Sorc/wiz stay away from Healing, Clerics/druids shouldn't choose Offensive Magic's, etc...  Though everyone can DO anything, certain things are easier for some). The types of magic you choose are easier to do, and you gain bonuses depending on how many types you choose.
You get a bonus = half your level(round down) divided evenly (If fractions are left over, add +1 to your 'primary' specialty) between all your specialties.  (EX: lvl 12=+6. 2 specialties = +3 each, 4 would be +1 to three, with your 4th, 'primary', getting +2)
ALSO, if you choose exactly 2 specialties, you can cast spells from them as if you were 2 levels higher for purposes of effective spell level and Caster Level dependant variables.

Metamagic Feats - Yes I'd allow them, and so that they'll work on EVERYTHING, including made-up spells that have no level, they just cost extra mana to add... Double the level adjustment. (EX: Adding Maximize to a Fireball doesn't raise the casting DC, but it does cost an extra 6 mana).  The 'sudden' feats will NOT cost more, as they can allready be used only a given number of times a day.

No Persistant Spells, btw.
[/sblock]



> [sblock=Character Submission(Work in Progress)]
> 
> 
> 
> ...




OK, noticed your ??? under languages... Everyone should know Patryn + Sartan, and there ARE others... Wolfen, Draconic, Chaodyn, Orcish(yes there's orcs now), the four elemental languages, and finally Elven, Dwarven, Human (Though you'd need to explain how you learned the Mensch tongues).  Patryn would be considered the 'common' tongue in the Labyrinth.

Also, will you be using a 'mage-armour' type spell? If not, maybe you should look into a tatoo of armour.


----------



## Lord_Raven88 (Apr 19, 2007)

I've changed my character slightly, as there isn't much point in having levels in two spellcasting classes.  And yes I will be using mage armour and greater mage to provide further protection.

Question: Is there any point in taking the Use Magic Device skill, I'm assuming that everyone will be able to use any magic item that find, due to having access to all spell list.

Also I wanted to raise a couple of points that I've been mulling over.

Firstly, I've been thinking about your revised system for spellcasting, particularly how you've calculated the DC for spell levels.  Using your system it become exponentially more differcult to cast higher level spells (which make sense).


```
[b]   Spell Level		DC[/b]
	1		9
	2		14
	3		21
	4		30
	5		41
	6		54
	7		69
	8		86
	9		105
```
This system make it very differcult to cast the higher level spells.  For instance a 20th level Wizard with 36 Intelligence (18 Int +5 inherent +5 levels +6 enhancement +2 bonus abilities) with 23 ranks in Craft(Runes), has a skill check bonus of 36.  

Now even if we assume that they have a +20 bonus on Craft (Runes) from other sources, that still only equates to a total of +56 skill bonus.  Which means he needs to roll a 49 on a d20 to cast a 9th level spell.   All of this assumes that he is casting a spell from the PHB, and not from another source.

Secondly, I believe that straight spellcasters aren't as well off as non-spellcasters.  

If I were to create a mad 12th level combat monster, my character would all of the abilities of the whatever classes I used  *plus* the spellcasting ability of a 6th level spellcaster.  This equates to 6 free levels of any spellcasting class of their choice, which means that non-spellcasters are getting  6 ECL for free. 

On the other hand a 12th spellcaster is just a 12th level spellcaster, and they are getting nothing to balance out the 6 ECL difference between their non-spellcasting contemporaries.

[sblock=Character Submission(Work in Progress)]
	
	



```
Solan the LVIII
Patryn Warlock 3 / Wizard 3 / Eldritch Theurge 6

Alignment: Lawful Evil
Size: Medium
Type: Humanoid
Base Speed: 30

Str: 10 (+0)  2 pts
Dex: 14 (+2)  6 pts
Con: 20 (+5)  6 pts +6 enhancement
Int: 28 (+9) 10 pts +2 racial +3 level +1 bonus +6 enhancement
Wis: 12 (+1)  4 pts
Cha: 18 (+4)  6 pts +4 enhancement

HP: 99 (11d4 + 1d6+ +60)

AC: 22 (10 base +2 Dex +7 nat +3 def)

Saves: 
For: +13 ( 4 Base +5 Con +4 resist)
Ref: +10 ( 4 Base +2 Dex +4 resist)
Wil: +16 (11 Base +1 Wis +4 resist)

Init: +6

Base attack bonus: +7

Attacks: 
Eldritch Blast +9 5d6 20/x2

Skills                 Total     Ranks   Stats    Misc
Appraise		 9        0.0      9        0
Balance			 2        0.0      2        0
Bluff			12        8.0      4        0
Climb			 0        0.0      0        0
Concentration		20       15.0      5        0
Craft (Runes)		39       15.0      9       15
Diplomacy		 4        0.0      4        0
Disguise		 4        0.0      4        0
Escape Artist		 2        0.0      2        0
Forgery			 9        0.0      9        0
Gather Information	 4        0.0      4        0
Heal			 1        0.0      1        0
Hide			 2        0.0      2        0
Intimidate		12        8.0      4        0
Jump			 0        0.0      0        0
Know(History)		17        8.0      9        0
Know(Labyrinth)		24       15.0      9        0
Know(Planes)		16        7.0      9        0
Listen			11       10.0      1        0
Move Silently		18        6.0      2       10
Perform			 4        0.0      4        0
Ride			 2        0.0      2        0
Search			 9        0.0      9        0
Sense Motive		10        9.0      1        0
Spot			11       10.0      1        0
Survival		 1        0.0      1        0
Swim			 0        0.0      0        0
Use Magic Device	 0        9.0      4        0
Use Rope		 2        0.0      2        0

Feats
1  - Corrupt Spell 		 	-[BoVD PG 47]
   - Craft Tatoo (bonus)
2  - Inscribe Runes (bonus)
3  - Empower Spell
5  - Searing Spell* (bonus ability)	-[Sandstorm PG 53] 
6  - Maximised Spell-like Ability (Eldritch Blast)
9  - Malign Spell Focus			-[BoVD PG 49]
10 - +1 Intelligence (bonus ability)
12 - Sudden Maximise
[size=1] * Ignores fire resistance, creatures with immunity to fire take half damage, Creatures with the cold subtype take double damage. +1 spell level[/size]
```
Languages: Patryn, Sartan, ?, ?, ?, ?, ?, ? 

Equipment 1750CP
Head: +6 Intelligence (18000cp)
Eyes: 
Neck: 
Torso: +4 Resistance (8000cp)
Body: +3 Natural Armour(9000cp)
Belt: +6 Constitution (18000cp)
Cloak: +4 Charisma (8000cp)
Arms: 
Hands: +15 Craft[Runes] (11250cp)
Ring1: +3 Deflection Bonus(9000cp)
Ring2: 
Feet: +10 Move Silently (5000cp)

Other Items
Travelers Outfit 5lb


Backpack
Bedroll
Bowl(Wooden)
Spoon (Wooden)
Flint and Steel
Silk Rope 50'
Winter Blanket
Waterskin

Weight Carried: 5lbs 
Carrying Capacity: Light(33 lb), Medium(31-66lb), Heavy(67-100lb)

*Patryn Abilities*
Abilities: +2 racial bonus to any one stat
Skills: Bonus skills as a human, Spot Listen and Spellcraft are always class skills
Bonus Ability: One bonus ability at every 5th level. Choose from Fighter/Metamagic/Item Creation feat OR +1d6 Sneak attack OR +1 to a stat.
Defensive Runes: +4 natural armour
Bonus Feat: Craft Tatoo

*Warlock Abilities*
Eldritch Blast: 5d6
Detect Magic at will
Damage Reduction: 4/cold iron
Invocations:
Eldritch Spear
Entropic Warding
See the Unseen*
Spiderwalk*
Walk Unseen*
* Usually active

*Wizard Abilities*
Bonus Feat: Inscribe Runes
Summon Familiar
Specialities: +3 to DC checks on Abjuration and Evocation spells. +2 effective caster levels on Wizard spells.

*Eldritch Theurge Abilities*
+6 levels of invocation class
+6 levels of arcane spellcasting class
Fiendish Resilence: Fast Healing 1 for two minutes 1/day.
Spellblast: This invocation (Lesser; 4th; Eldritch Essence), allows an Eldritch Theurge to place an arcane spell that affects an area upon an eldritch blast(EB).  If the EB hits it's target, the spell's area is centred on any corner of the targets space.  If the EB misses it's target the spell is lost with no effect.  It takes a full round action to cast the spell and fire the EB.  Only an area spell with a casting time no greater than 1 standard action can be placed upon an EB.
ELdritch Spellweave: Can apply an eldritch essence(EE) invocation you know (other than spellblast) to any arcane spell that affects a target or that requires a melee or ranged touch attack.  The spells level must be at least as high as the level of the EE.  If the EE requires a saving throw, use the normal save DC for that essence.  If an EE invocation changes the damage of the spell, it can only be applied to a spell that deals damage.  This ability increases the spells casting time to 1 full-round action.  This ability can be used 7 times per day (3+cha mod).

*Favoured Spells (Mana Points 69)* 
1st (DC9)   - Mage Armour 
2nd (DC14)  - Cats Grace 
3rd (DC21)  - 
4th (DC30)  - Stoneskin
5th (DC41)  - 
6th (DC54)  - * (Antimagic Field, Bigby's Forceful Hand, Chain Lightning, Contingency, Greater Dispel Magic, Globe of Invulnerability, Guards and Wards, Otiluke's Freezing Sphere, Repulsion.)
7th (DC69)  - N/A
8th (DC86)  - N/A
9th (DC105) - N/A
* Can only cast Abjuration and Evocation spells of this level

Height: 6'
Weight: 160 lbs
Eyes: Cobolt
Hair: Brown with white tips
Skin: Bronze

Appearance:
Solan is a lean handsome man of above average height.

Background:
When the Labyrinth was first constructed the Patryns weren't the only prisoners interred there.  Infact any Sartan who disagreed with the Councils decision to sunder the world (and in the process kill millions of innocent mensch) were also thrown into the Labyrinth with the councils hated foe, the Patryns.

Over time the minority group of Sartans were fully incorporated into the larger Patryn population, as former petty rivalries were soon put aside as the two groups were jointly forced to fight for survival inside of their harsh prison.

Solan is a descendant of both of these groups, and for generations all of his male ancestors have been named Solan in honour of the original Sartan prisoner.  Not because that the believe that their Sartan ancestry is more important than their Patryn ancestry.  Rather in recognition of what can be achieved when enemies put aside their differences and learn to work together.
[/sblock]


----------



## Jemal (Apr 19, 2007)

RE: UMD Yep, that's right, it'd also be pointless, so let's add it to the list of "skills that don't exist".

RE: Spellcasting.  Yeah, that's true, which is why I'm giving you guys so much mana.

(Remember, that by lvl 20, a sorc has over 300-400 mana, and it only costs 1 (regardless of level) to attempt a spell(And additional for bonuses to the check).  So, using your 'example' skill check of +56, and the fact that you can take 10.... that's a 66.  NOW, if you're a casting a spell from your 'specialty' (Which only primary casters can do), you could gain a bonus of +10, meaning to get the DC 105, you'd need to spend an additional 29 mana.  So, that's 30 mana for a lvl 9 spell (10 more if it's not in your specialty).  
So, even assuming it's NOT in your specialty, Out of 400 Mana, that means 10 lvl 9 spells a day.  OR, say 6 (What a sorc could cast at lvl 20) lvl 9 spells, with about 100 mana left for other spells. 
Since you've got a base 66 skill check taking 10, you'd pay 1 mana for every spell up to lvl 6, 4 mana for a lvl 7, 21 for a lvl 8)

Allright, so 6 lvl 9 spells, 6 lvl 8 spells, 6 lvl 7 spells would cost 390 mana (which your char. in question should have, np).  Everything else would cost 1 mana a piece.

OK, I am going to make ONE change.. Craft(Runes) for spellcasting uses whichever of the following stats is your highest (instead of int).  Dex, or your casting class's primary casting stat.

Does that sound fair, or do we still think it needs to be worked out some more?

As for the 6 free ECL, well Gestalt is figured at +2 ECL, and that's for an ENTIRE extra class as secondary, whereas this is half level, and you need to spend mana to activate the extra features.. Maybe +1 ECL... SO, I might work on something else for primary casters.

*EDIT: Also, don't forget that the Primary Caster has a casting skill bonus = half his level, which at 12 is +6, divided between any specialties he chooses.  Also, if you choose a single specialty, you get +2 to your level for all purposes surrounding that school.  SO, if a sorc12 chose "Fire spells" as a single specialty, they would gain +6 to casting any fire spells(which is effectively 6 less mana cost for the spells that he can't make normally), and would be considered Sorc14 (meaning higher caster level, and access to lvl 7 spells).  In addition to the fact that mana goes up fast.. The lvl 12 Sorceror(Special:fire) wouldn't have "double", but more like 4X the mana of the lvl 12 fighter(backup sorc).


----------



## Jemal (Apr 19, 2007)

One more thing : RE double spellcasting

A char. with 2 spellcasting classes would add the mana for both together, and would have 2 seperate 'specialty' pools. (AKA A cleric6/Wizard6 would figure out their cleric mana, the figure out their wizard mana, and add the two together.  Plus, they could choose 1 cleric specialty (which would get +3skill and +2 CL), and 1 wizard (which would get +3 skill and +2 CL).  They wouldn't be allowed to choose the same specialty twice, and would normally only have access to 3rd level spells, but b/c of their comparatively high casting skill mod, would find any spell they DO try easy.
Thus, Mystic Theurge and Ultimate magus ARE really good choices, IMO.


----------



## Lord_Raven88 (Apr 19, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> RE: UMD Yep, that's right, it'd also be pointless, so let's add it to the list of "skills that don't exist".
> 
> RE: Spellcasting.  Yeah, that's true, which is why I'm giving you guys so much mana.
> 
> ...



I didn't realise that you could pay mana to add on to your spellcasting check, That certainly makes it more achievable.



			
				Jemal said:
			
		

> OK, I am going to make ONE change.. Craft(Runes) for spellcasting uses whichever of the following stats is your highest (instead of int).  Dex, or your casting class's primary casting stat.
> 
> Does that sound fair, or do we still think it needs to be worked out some more?



Well as the resident moaning twit, I'm going to have to stick up my anally retentive hand and continue to point out any percieved flaws.

Changing the Craft(Rune) ability certainly makes it easier for everyone to cast spels but it completly breaks the Wizard class.   

In the core rules Wizards and Sorcerers are _relatively_ well balanced against each other, Wizards cast less spells per day but have the potential to learn and cast any spell they want.  While the Sorcerer has access to a smaller pool of spells and is a level behind the Wizard in learning new higher level spells, but can cast more and use them on the fly.

Now with the rule changes there is little reason to go a Wizard, as Sorcerers has access to all spells, have more mana than Wizards (due to being able to cast more per day) and aren't hindered by the Craft (Runes) skill, as it is no longer driven by their Int score.  

The only draw back to going a Sorcercer is being a level behind Wizards for casting higher level spells.  This is partially mitigated by specialising in 1 or two fields of magic, so as to get the +2 effective caster levels.

Now im not complaining per se (honest!    ) just pointing the ways that the system can and will be exploited by greedy little twinkers like myself.  Although I'm not really a serious twinker like someone I could name *cough* AC 70 *cough*.   



			
				Jemal said:
			
		

> As for the 6 free ECL, well Gestalt is figured at +2 ECL, and that's for an ENTIRE extra class as secondary, whereas this is half level, and you need to spend mana to activate the extra features.. Maybe +1 ECL... SO, I might work on something else for primary casters.
> 
> *EDIT: Also, don't forget that the Primary Caster has a casting skill bonus = half his level, which at 12 is +6, divided between any specialties he chooses.  Also, if you choose a single specialty, you get +2 to your level for all purposes surrounding that school.  SO, if a sorc12 chose "Fire spells" as a single specialty, they would gain +6 to casting any fire spells(which is effectively 6 less mana cost for the spells that he can't make normally), and would be considered Sorc14 (meaning higher caster level, and access to lvl 7 spells).  In addition to the fact that mana goes up fast.. The lvl 12 Sorceror(Special:fire) wouldn't have "double", but more like 4X the mana of the lvl 12 fighter(backup sorc).



I obviously can't be too upset by this as I'm creating a primary spellcaster myself.  Anyway it was mearly something to think about.


----------



## Lord_Raven88 (Apr 19, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> One more thing : RE double spellcasting
> 
> A char. with 2 spellcasting classes would add the mana for both together, and would have 2 seperate 'specialty' pools. (AKA A cleric6/Wizard6 would figure out their cleric mana, the figure out their wizard mana, and add the two together.  Plus, they could choose 1 cleric specialty (which would get +3skill and +2 CL), and 1 wizard (which would get +3 skill and +2 CL).  They wouldn't be allowed to choose the same specialty twice, and would normally only have access to 3rd level spells, but b/c of their comparatively high casting skill mod, would find any spell they DO try easy.
> Thus, Mystic Theurge and Ultimate magus ARE really good choices, IMO.



True, that's why my initial submission was a Archivist 3 / Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 6. He certainly had a lot more mana that my current submission.  But the Archivist levels felt like a waste as a straight Wizard can cast any divine spell anyway, albiet as a spell of 1 level higher.  But that was before you included the rules for specialisation with the bonus CL's.

I'm still pretty happy with my Warlock 3 / Wizard 3 / Eldritch Theurge 6, as being able to use the warlocks invocations and eldritch blast at no cost at will is pretty cool.  I also like the Warlock as it can be explained via Solon's Sartan/Patryn heritage.  Although with the new rule refinements I 'll be swapping out the Wizard levels for Sorcerer levels.


----------



## Jemal (Apr 19, 2007)

I see your point, Though wizards DO still gain bonus feats (Inscribe Rune at lvl 1, and a bonus metamagic every 5), as well as gaining new spell levels 1 earlier, and the ability to specialize (different from the Rune-magic specializing).  Plus, the whole "Spontaneous metamagic = 1 full round casting" thing.
Im not inclined to do much for wizards, though that could be b/c of my inherent Sorc love.
In this case, though, Sorc fits the bill more than Wizard if you ask me... Casting specific, pre-memorized formula from a book doesn't seem very Patryn to me.

(And btw, normally it's Sorc's who get the short end.)

I do like your Warlock = Sartan concept, though.. I love warlocks.



> Although I'm not really a serious twinker like someone I could name *cough* AC 70 *cough*.



Oh, that's not twinking... I was going Easy on them.  Straight core @lvl 20 it's easy to beat 100, My friends and I have done it with 3 seperate characters(Core/SRD only, no psionics)


----------



## Lord_Raven88 (Apr 19, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> I see your point, Though wizards DO still gain bonus feats (Inscribe Rune at lvl 1, and a bonus metamagic every 5), as well as gaining new spell levels 1 earlier, and the ability to specialize (different from the Rune-magic specializing).  Plus, the whole "Spontaneous metamagic = 1 full round casting" thing.
> Im not inclined to do much for wizards, though that could be b/c of my inherent Sorc love.
> In this case, though, Sorc fits the bill more than Wizard if you ask me... Casting specific, pre-memorized formula from a book doesn't seem very Patryn to me.



I agree, so I'm happy to change to Sorc.



			
				Jemal said:
			
		

> I do like your Warlock = Sartan concept, though.. I love warlocks.
> 
> 
> Oh, that's not twinking... I was going Easy on them.  Straight core @lvl 20 it's easy to beat 100, My friends and I have done it with 3 seperate characters(Core/SRD only, no psionics)



I'll have to take your word on it, I'm pretty useless at 'optimising' characters.  I have access to so many books, but I never seem able to find al of those little loopholes that others do.


----------



## Jemal (Apr 24, 2007)

CLEAR!!
 *ZAP *

I don't think there's enough interest to run this, which sucks b/c I really like the concept... 

IF I'm wrong, could I get at least 3 people telling me so?  
If I'm right, then I'd like to invite those who may have been interested in this to check out my new game starting soon.  Check the thread Gaming w/Jemal : Choose your destiny.


----------



## -SIN- (Apr 25, 2007)

I'm interested


----------



## Lord_Raven88 (Apr 25, 2007)

Jemal said:
			
		

> CLEAR!!
> *ZAP *
> 
> I don't think there's enough interest to run this, which sucks b/c I really like the concept...
> ...



Well i'm interested, but if there aren't ennough players I'm happy to take part in your other adventures.


----------



## Jemal (Apr 25, 2007)

The problem is that while 4/5 people expressed interest initially, only you two have stuck around.  OK, if we get even one more person posting that's going to make a char, i'll probly keep this going.  Otherwise, I guess we let it sink, and you're more than welcome to come try something else with me.  Maybe I'll try ressurecting this in the future.


----------



## Land Outcast (Apr 25, 2007)

Sorry, not here to join in (Though I'm dying to do so... one word: exams)

Just to wish luck to this project   

Death Door Cycle Rocks. Hard.


----------



## -SIN- (Apr 28, 2007)

M'kay, I've posted on your other thread & would love to join if poss!!


----------

