# The big announcement: 4dventure



## Glyfair

Went to the D&D site and there is a huge banner with the word "4VENTURE" with a countdown timer (just under 12 hours now).  I guess this is the lead in for the "big announcement."

There is a key 4 in the title and all the dice have 4s showing.

Edit:  4E has been confirmed in this post on the thread.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots

Well, there you go, I guess.


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## Warehouse23

4nd so it begins...


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## Nyarlathotep

Not to worry, they are no doubt talking about 4 dimensional ventures!


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## Glyfair

Nyarlathotep said:
			
		

> Not to worry, they are no doubt talking about 4 dimensional ventures!



I'm not discounting that it could be a big tease.

The art style though has the feel of the 3E art previews.


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## Olgar Shiverstone

Well, let's think about this.

It could be the 4e announcement (doubtful, but still).

It could be "4-D Adventure" ... like 3D, but with more dimensions!

It could be "Ford venture" ... er, sponsored by Ford?

It could be "Adventure" in really bizarre font.  Damn l337-sp34k.

It could refer to the live dungeon delve at GenCon, somehow ...

Perhaps it is the actual name of the "Digital Initiative"?  Like Gleemax, only less Glee, more 4dventure?  As in "For Adventure, click here ..."

4dventure = 4 days of adventure = GenCon ?


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## Bloosquig

Wow... finally doing it eh?

I was wondering when they would launch a new set of WotC flavored 4 sided dice.  Thank goodness my old d4's were getting old.


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## Nyarlathotep

Maybe it's some kind of tie-in with ford and they are being clever


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## dragonlordofpoondari

Say it isn't so.

Now I must cry in my soup.


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## Glyfair

Now the timer has jumped up to slightly under 24 hours.  That makes more sense.

Unfortunately, I can't access the D&D site, something I was trying to do (looking for a specific Dragonshards article).


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## Marshall

Yeah, 4e is using the new d4 system!


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## CaptainChaos

And now we all become suckers.


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## EricNoah

I was gonna say, 6am is kind of early for anything, even announcing 4th edition.


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## Glyfair

EricNoah said:
			
		

> I was gonna say, 6am is kind of early for anything, even announcing 4th edition.



I was thinking that's when the new website would go live.  I guess someone just put in AM instead of PM.


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## Sigma

Woot!

That is all.


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## blargney the second

Huh.


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## Olgar Shiverstone

I'm scared.  Somebody hold me.


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## rkwoodard

*No, they read this thread*

Hi,
  But it is very suspious that the website changed after this thread

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=203991

I am guessing a new Fourniture D20 Campaign Setting.  No Minis just your household furniture and appliances.

RK


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## EricNoah

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> I'm scared.  Somebody hold me.




This is the day EN World dies.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard

Even though I know its not true, this would likely be the most evil, yet hilarious joke possible...but methinks that's stretching it. 

So...24 hours to find out if its a joke or 4E, then the wonderful speculation as we'll likely get very little info.


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## ColonelHardisson

I actually hope this is the 4e announcement. I wonder if Morrus will be able to post about it after his sit-down with WotC tonight?


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## Garnfellow

Definitely 4th edition. That sure looks like concept art in the top register, and a big D&D logo behind the dice. Let the era of "Unofficial 4th Edition News" begin.


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## dragonlordofpoondari

EricNoah said:
			
		

> This is the day EN World dies.




BWAAAAAH!!!

<profuse weeping>


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## Videssian

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Even though I know its not true, this would likely be the most evil, yet hilarious joke possible...but methinks that's stretching it.
> 
> So...24 hours to find out if its a joke or 4E, then the wonderful speculation as we'll likely get very little info.




Not if it was March 31st tonight (and it's not)... betcha they try that with "5th edition" this spring 

Hopefully Morris won't have to sign a 24-hour NDA.. *hopes*


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## Olgar Shiverstone

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> I actually hope this is the 4e announcement. I wonder if Morrus will be able to post about it after his sit-down with WotC tonight?




I hope he posts ... and I hope it's not the announcement (for lots of reasons I won't go into here).

Mostly because if it is, after all the WOTC announcements of "No, we're not working on 4E, it's a long way off, etc, etc" they'd be revealed as lying corporate bastards.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots

Garnfellow said:
			
		

> Definitely 4th edition. That sure looks like concept art in the top register, and a big D&D logo behind the dice. Let the era of "Unofficial 4th Edition News" begin.



Interestingly, none of the iconics appear to be in the art, and one of them has ram horns. (A tiefling?)


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## Kanegrundar

I hope it's 4E as well.  If for nothing else than to get all the "the %)(#*%)%$(# sky is falling threads out of the way.


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## Garnfellow

You know, I actually needed to download a 3e character sheet tonight, but this banner is everywhere.


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## Geron Raveneye

Hey, nice previews...will this be the next edition then that starts out fresh, exciting and simple, only to be buried under the masses of new options, splatbooks and sourcebooks two years later? It looks so new and innocent on that page...sketchy even, like the only thing it needs to be fleshed out is your imagination.


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## Videssian

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> Interestingly, none of the iconics appear to be in the art, and one of them has ram horns. (A tiefling?)




Hmm.. it could be a play on "4th dimension", a.k.a. "Planescape replacement".. one could make a case for that...


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## Shawn_Kehoe

EricNoah said:
			
		

> This is the day EN World dies.




The world has need of you again, sir! 

(No, no ... not to process late book fees. For that OTHER task!)


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## Vigilance

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> I hope he posts ... and I hope it's not the announcement (for lots of reasons I won't go into here).
> 
> Mostly because if it is, after all the WOTC announcements of "No, we're not working on 4E, it's a long way off, etc, etc" they'd be revealed as lying corporate bastards.




Actually, I thought they said we'd get a year's notice. So this could be an announcement that says "4e coming GenCon next year" or something.


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## rkwoodard

*Nay,*



			
				ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> I actually hope this is the 4e announcement. I wonder if Morrus will be able to post about it after his sit-down with WotC tonight?




I bet they hide the NDA under the carrots.  

RK


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## catsclaw227

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWW!!!!!!!

Not sure whether to be excited or bummed that I just bought a bunch of 3.x d20 stuff today on Amazon.

The thing that gets me is the inability to click through to the D&D site, like it's locked behind a curtain of mystery.


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## Grymar

Quick, check the calendar.  Tell me it is March 31st!


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## vongarr

In this modern day where it seems like everything is getting leaked before it comes out, I'm really impressed no one knew anything about this.

I feel like an idiot for not thinking it's 4th edition. I thought it was the Digital initiative, didn't even think about 4th.

What if 4th edition and the DI are the same thing?


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## Vocenoctum

Videssian said:
			
		

> Hmm.. it could be a play on "4th dimension", a.k.a. "Planescape replacement".. one could make a case for that...





First thing I thought of was "for adventure" / 4adventure, but then the 4e thing, then "ah, right... anyway."


I just finally got my Githzerai monk-swordsage-blacksunninja-zerth cenobite, I hope the new edition has that at start!


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## EricNoah

It could be the DI's name, cleverly including 4 to be ready for a 4th edition that is not yet developed.


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## takasi

I'm just glad they're FINALLY releasing info.  It's seemed pretty obvious, at least to me from the upcoming release schedule.  My group will be anxiously awaiting the news.  Since we run multiple games we're ready to start over fresh and keep the old as well.

Edit: Oh sorry, that's not a 4, it's just a capital A in the new 1337 DI font.  This isn't the new edition you're looking for.  Move along.


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## Charwoman Gene

EricNoah said:
			
		

> This is the day EN World dies.




You totally should go get a cheap crappy Blog, do it up in black and red as EN''s unnofficail 4th edition news...


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## Marshall

Is it me or is that counter moving way to fast? It was at 23:30 at 8pm and now its at 22:20 at 8:15pm


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## ColonelHardisson

Geron Raveneye said:
			
		

> Hey, nice previews...will this be the next edition then that starts out fresh, exciting and simple, only to be buried under the masses of new options, splatbooks and sourcebooks two years later? It looks so new and innocent on that page...sketchy even, like the only thing it needs to be fleshed out is your imagination.




If you're afraid of such a "burial," you could always simply _not_ buy all the follow-up material that WotC needs to publish to actually stay in business. Many of us like having a lot of material to choose from, and feel no need to buy and use everything.


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## Vigilance

EricNoah said:
			
		

> It could be the DI's name, cleverly including 4 to be ready for a 4th edition that is not yet developed.




Totally possible.


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## Sigma

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> I just finally got my Githzerai monk-swordsage-blacksunninja-zerth cenobite, I hope the new edition has that at start!




It's going to be a base class.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots

Kanegrundar said:
			
		

> I hope it's 4E as well.  If for nothing else than to get all the "the %)(#*%)%$(# sky is falling threads out of the way.



I predict they announce 4.5E at GenCon 2009. Let the new round of threads begin!


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## cthulhu_duck

If the fourth dimension is time...


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## Olgar Shiverstone

EricNoah said:
			
		

> It could be the DI's name, cleverly including 4 to be ready for a 4th edition that is not yet developed.




If that is the case, they are truly sick, twisted puppies.


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## EricNoah

It will be interesting to see what the rollout plan is for the information.  If they learned anything from the last time they did this.  I'm guessing that since they're specifically holding a meeting with Russ, maybe they did.


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## GAAAHHH

Looks like it's time to buy some more 3rd edition adventures.


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## Vigilance

EricNoah said:
			
		

> It will be interesting to see what the rollout plan is for the information.  If they learned anything from the last time they did this.  I'm guessing that since they're specifically holding a meeting with Russ, maybe they did.





Digital Dimensions Dungeon and Dragon ? (it has 4 D's in it lol)

I do think this could be the DI though, since 4dventure basically reads like "adventure".

Of course, it could be 4e as well.


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## rkwoodard

*smart money*



			
				EricNoah said:
			
		

> It could be the DI's name, cleverly including 4 to be ready for a 4th edition that is not yet developed.





Add me to list that believes you are dead on correct sir!

RK


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## Olgar Shiverstone

EricNoah said:
			
		

> It will be interesting to see what the rollout plan is for the information.  If they learned anything from the last time they did this.  I'm guessing that since they're specifically holding a meeting with Russ, maybe they did.




If they learned anything from the last time they did this, the first hint wouldn't be locking up their site with a bizarre splash page ... they'd quietly brief everyone first, then lock up for the general public.  Which leads me to conclude:

1.  It isn't the 4E announcement, or
2.  They didn't learn anything from last time.  Note the handling of the Dungeon/Dragon license.

More likely the latter.     Why wouldn't they make their big announcement at the "D&D Experience" convention?

If someone decided to be cute and use a l337-speak name for the DI ... they should have thought more about what 4 = A might mean.  Or maybe 4d = 4 days of adventure = GenCon?


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## The Grumpy Celt

Eric! Why arn't you starting a Website about this?

Kidding aside, maybe this is related to why WotC is hiring a new RPG developer (among others)...


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## Ambrus

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> I'm scared.  Somebody hold me.



I'm with you. I'll be hiding under my bed with a bag of cookies if anyone needs me...


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## Glyfair

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> More likely the latter.     Why wouldn't they make their big announcement at the "D&D Experience" convention?



I have to admit, if it is the assumed 4E announcement WotC will have taken a big credibility hit with me.  They as much as said that all big D&D announcements will be made at the D&D Xperience.  The DI covers more than D&D, 4E on the other hand...


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## ColonelHardisson

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> More likely the latter.     Why wouldn't they make their big announcement at the "D&D Experience" convention?




Because even they have to admit to themselves that GenCon is THE RPG convention, the one where such announcements are made.


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## Relique du Madde

Hmmm...  I notice theres a lot of 4s on that page...

4dventure... 4 adventure... 4th adventure... hmm... Go 4th and adventure... damn.. that would be a catchy slogan..  that a lot better then Gleemax.  just incase...  ::does a who is search::


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## Olgar Shiverstone

OK, I'm staying up late in the hope that Morrus posts ... that he's under an NDA and can't say anything.   

Off to find chow ... back later.


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## The Grumpy Celt

dragonlordofpoondari said:
			
		

> Now I must cry in my soup.




My head turned 360 degrees and I spat up a lung... alright, my reaction was not that bad, but I'm not happy.


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## ColonelHardisson

Glyfair said:
			
		

> I have to admit, if it is the assumed 4E announcement WotC will have taken a big credibility hit with me.  They as much as said that all big D&D announcements will be made at the D&D Xperience.  The DI covers more than D&D, 4E on the other hand...




Their credibility in general has been low for quite a while. I still remember how, immediately after 3e's release, they insisted everything was okey-dokey, even when Monte jumped ship. Then they turned around within a really short time and laid a bunch of people off, including many of 3e's designers. Or how about the "gentleman's agreement" they had with Necromancer Games, in which they said they wouldn't be doing their own versions of the critters in the Tome of Horrors, then began doing their own versions soon after? Those are the two best examples I can think of off the top of my head.

Still, it could be the DI, but bundled with something about 4e.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> Because even they have to admit to themselves that GenCon is THE RPG convention, the one where such announcements are made.



I dunno. I just went to Blizzcon this month, and that's where Blizzard made their big announcement (the new WoW expansion). I think WotC is even bigger in the RPG space than Blizzard is in the videogame space. If they decided to go with GenCon rather than the D&D XPerience, it was probably because of logistical issues or something.


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## Sound of Azure

WotC just bought 4chan


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## Korgoth

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> Interestingly, none of the iconics appear to be in the art, and one of them has ram horns. (A tiefling?)




Wait until you see the look on his face when his head butt attack gets nerfed in 4.5.


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## Zaukrie

Wow, I wasn't expecting this. It sure looks like 4E from the other side of the monitor. Interesting. Now I really wish I had gond to Indy.


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## EricNoah

3rd edition got the shaft. 

Someone had to say it!


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## ashockney

*Holy Crap*

Well that's kind of exciting.  It's fun being a fanboy sometimes.


So, I'm wondering what the 4th dimension would be.  Assuming one dimension is word, and the second dimension is art (or 2D like paper), and the third dimension is minis/battlemaps and such (as in 3D representation), what could the fourth dimension represent for D&D that's not paper and mini?  

My guess is that they have developed a way to take your GAME into an "online" world.  You can play it by word, by sight, by mini, or by online gaming environment.


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## Anson Caralya

#@&%#@&#!  And I just figured out how 3.5 _polymorph_ works!


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## Vigilance

The timer is moving really fast. It's already below 22 hours.


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## WhatGravitas

Mkay, this looks... pretty important. And contains new line art, which make me think of something _printed_. This will (hopefully) something big...



			
				Sound of Azure said:
			
		

> WotC just bought 4chan



Or in mind flaying illithid fun. With... humans.


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## Shawn_Kehoe

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> I dunno. I just went to Blizzcon this month, and that's where Blizzard made their big announcement (the new WoW expansion). I think WotC is even bigger in the RPG space than Blizzard is in the videogame space. If they decided to go with GenCon rather than the D&D XPerience, it was probably because of logistical issues or something.




They want to release in 2008. If they waited until D&D Experience, the earliest they could publish is 2009. They have promised us a year's notice, and the retailers would expect such treatment as well. We all saw what havoc the short notice of 3.5 caused.

Besides, the smart money says that D&D Experience will live up to its name next year - I expect there will be lots of seminars, and maybe even sample play sessions with the new rules set.


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## Matt Black

You're all wrong.

It's just that WotC has decided to get behind "March 4th for GM's Day". I guess they'll try to change it to "DM's Day". Why they'd do it in August, though...


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## Son_of_Thunder

4dventure is now officially more lame than Gleemax.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots

Anson Caralya said:
			
		

> #@&%#@&#!  And I just figured out how 3.5 _polymorph_ works!



If this is indeed 4E, and not just a perverse name for the DI, I sure hope we don't have to go through the polymorph nonsense all over again.


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## Son_of_Thunder

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> If this is indeed 4E, and not just a perverse name for the DI, I sure hope we don't have to go through the polymorph nonsense all over again.




Na, we'll see the PHII treatment become S.O.P.


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## Glyfair

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> I still remember how, immediately after 3e's release, they insisted everything was okey-dokey, even when Monte jumped ship. Then they turned around within a really short time and laid a bunch of people off, including many of 3e's designers.



To me, that's pretty normal.  Even if things are rough you don't tell the fans before you the employees.  When you are part of a publicly traded company you don't tell the fans before you tell the stockholders.

Besides "everything is okey-dokey" is such a vague statement is can mean many things.  D&D wasn't folded, so that fits the definition from one point-of-view.



> Or how about the "gentleman's agreement" they had with Necromancer Games, in which they said they wouldn't be doing their own versions of the critters in the Tome of Horrors, then began doing their own versions soon after?




I wasn't part of that.  I don't know what miscommunications there might have been or whether Necromancer was talking to someone that had the ability to reach that agreement.  Besides, it meant little to me to begin with.  I don't care that WotC did versions later, and never expected they wouldn't.  Regarding the project, they were pretty generous even allowing Necromancer to have all the access to their IP.

However, the "major D&D Announcements will be made at the D&D Xperience" was pretty clear.  It also was made just over 6 months ago.  Pretty incredible that they would change their policy in that time.  If 4E is announced now it was in the works then.  They should have had a plan about when they would be announcing it then.


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## Sketchpad

Hmm ... someone at the WotC boards mentioned GC as the 4 best days in gaming ... man, I hope it's not 4e ... I like 3e


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## Irda Ranger

EricNoah said:
			
		

> This is the day EN World dies.



Don't do that!    I felt the happy drain out of the room ...


			
				EricNoah said:
			
		

> It could be the DI's name, cleverly including 4 to be ready for a 4th edition that is not yet developed.



That's better. Thanks. 

But, I agree with Olgar Shiverstone:


			
				Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> If someone decided to be cute and use a l337-speak name for the DI ...



I actually think this is right.  They thought the 4=A would appeal to "young gamers" (maybe it would - I dunno; even at just 29 I'm feeling old some days).  I think they just didn't think what the initial reaction would be the number in the name.  Corporations can be stupid like that sometimes - suffering from group-think is easy if you're not careful.


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## Olaf the Stout

For me, it's either the announcement of the new Digital Initiative or 4th Edition.  I guess we'll find out in about a day from now.

Olaf the Stout


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## DarkKestral

Anson Caralya said:
			
		

> #@&%#@&#!  And I just figured out how 3.5 _polymorph_ works!




Wow. I thought nobody understood 3.5 _polymorph_, just like no one understands quantum mechanics.

And I too wish I were at Indy. I had a chance to go and the cash to spend. Unfortunately, I lacked anyone to go with, so I chose not to go.. this sounds.. interesting.


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## takasi

Son_of_Thunder said:
			
		

> 4dventure is now officially more lame than Gleemax.




Now wh4t would m4ke you s4y th4t?


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## MKMcArtor

Sound of Azure said:
			
		

> WotC just bought 4chan




NOOOOEEEEESSSSS!!!!


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## Korgoth

As I'm sure others have already predicted, I'm guessing that 4E and the DI are going to be pretty closely married.


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## Vocenoctum

Sigma said:
			
		

> It's going to be a base class.





But then everyone will make one!


I want to be unique, just like everybody else!


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## frankthedm

Could be  4E, though it could be made to look likes such to give the Digital initiative the feel of a fresh start. And to muck with the heads of those who worry about a 4th edition.


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## Vocenoctum

EricNoah said:
			
		

> It will be interesting to see what the rollout plan is for the information.  If they learned anything from the last time they did this.  I'm guessing that since they're specifically holding a meeting with Russ, maybe they did.




I assume it's for the Digital Initiative and Gleemax. They're most likely finalizing their purchase of ENWorld tonight, and will kick all the Haters out over the weekend.

It's the only logical conclusion.


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## Son_of_Thunder

takasi said:
			
		

> Now wh4t would m4ke you s4y th4t?




You sir, made me laugh! Well done.


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## ColonelHardisson

Irda Ranger said:
			
		

> But, I agree with Olgar Shiverstone:
> 
> I actually think this is right.  They thought the 4=A would appeal to "young gamers" (maybe it would - I dunno; even at just 29 I'm feeling old some days).  I think they just didn't think what the initial reaction would be the number in the name.  Corporations can be stupid like that sometimes - suffering from group-think is easy if you're not careful.




I just think it's just too big a coincidence that the only instance of 1337 is the "A" replaced by a "4."


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## EricNoah

You know, we need to get started on a very vital task right away... those of us staying with 3rd edition must .. I say MUST ... start coming up with clever perjoratives for those traitors going on to 4th edition.  Something to rival "3etard" in its cleverness.  

Get crackin'!


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## EricNoah

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> I assume it's for the Digital Initiative and Gleemax. They're most likely finalizing their purchase of ENWorld tonight, and will kick all the Haters out over the weekend.
> 
> It's the only logical conclusion.




Hey, if they offer him a huge chunk of change, I say he should go for it!


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## Glyfair

EricNoah said:
			
		

> You know, we need to get started on a very vital task right away... those of us staying with 3rd edition must .. I say MUST ... start coming up with clever perjoratives for those traitors going on to 4th edition.  Something to rival "3etard" in its cleverness.
> 
> Get crackin'!



4nicators?


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## Korgoth

EricNoah said:
			
		

> You know, we need to get started on a very vital task right away... those of us staying with 3rd edition must .. I say MUST ... start coming up with clever perjoratives for those traitors going on to 4th edition.  Something to rival "3etard" in its cleverness.
> 
> Get crackin'!




4nicators?


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## Son_of_Thunder

EricNoah said:
			
		

> You know, we need to get started on a very vital task right away... those of us staying with 3rd edition must .. I say MUST ... start coming up with clever perjoratives for those traitors going on to 4th edition.  Something to rival "3etard" in its cleverness.
> 
> Get crackin'!




4th editions just 4play where the real stuff is 3.x.


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## Son_of_Thunder

Glyfair said:
			
		

> 4nicators?




Winner!


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## EricNoah

Glyfair and Korgoth, they think alike.


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## Korgoth

Glyfair said:
			
		

> 4nicators?




Dang it!  Scooped!


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## Garnfellow

EricNoah said:
			
		

> You know, we need to get started on a very vital task right away... those of us staying with 3rd edition must .. I say MUST ... start coming up with clever perjoratives for those traitors going on to 4th edition.  Something to rival "3etard" in its cleverness.
> 
> Get crackin'!




4iners


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## bowbe

EricNoah said:
			
		

> You know, we need to get started on a very vital task right away... those of us staying with 3rd edition must .. I say MUST ... start coming up with clever perjoratives for those traitors going on to 4th edition.  Something to rival "3etard" in its cleverness.
> 
> Get crackin'!




Like 4$$ H4ts?


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## ashockney

Just because nobody else has posted it yet, I believe we're counting down to 6:30pm tomorrow night on the first day of Gen Con.  Anyone got a copy of the schedule to see what's slotted for that time.  It's not the opening of the con, or the opening of the dealer hall, etc...


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## w_earle_wheeler

*sauce*



			
				Sound of Azure said:
			
		

> WotC just bought 4chan




This.


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## Son_of_Thunder

Garnfellow said:
			
		

> 4iners




those durn 4iners.

I like.


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## Vocenoctum

Glyfair said:
			
		

> To me, that's pretty normal.  Even if things are rough you don't tell the fans before you the employees.  When you are part of a publicly traded company you don't tell the fans before you tell the stockholders.
> 
> Besides "everything is okey-dokey" is such a vague statement is can mean many things.  D&D wasn't folded, so that fits the definition from one point-of-view.



Aside from the fact that the lay-off's might have had nothing to do with D&D's healthy, but rather just "highest paid".





> I wasn't part of that.  I don't know what miscommunications there might have been or whether Necromancer was talking to someone that had the ability to reach that agreement.



I never heard of the agreement from anyone but Necromancer, never heard specifics on the agreement, and believe it is more like the Monte Cook Unearthed Arcana Unearthed thing. WotC may have stated they had no current plans for something, but would never lock themselves out of their own IP forever.

Either way, the fact that sometime back 5-6 years ago, these things happened, does not in any way lead to me judge WotC of today.


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## Son_of_Thunder

Perhaps B4rb4ri4ns.


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## Ambrus

EricNoah said:
			
		

> You know, we need to get started on a very vital task right away... those of us staying with 3rd edition must .. I say MUST ... start coming up with clever perjoratives for those traitors going on to 4th edition.  Something to rival "3etard" in its cleverness.



*4rons*


----------



## wingsandsword

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> Mostly because if it is, after all the WOTC announcements of "No, we're not working on 4E, it's a long way off, etc, etc" they'd be revealed as lying corporate bastards.



If this is 4th edition like it looks like it is, all those big pronouncements that it was a long way off are going to look pretty bad.

Didn't they say they'd only do an announcement like that at the D&D Experience, formerly Winter Fantasy, convention?

While it looks an awful lot like a 4e announcement, it also breaks everything WotC said recently about how/when 4e would be announced.


----------



## EricNoah

Ambrus said:
			
		

> *4rons*




Oooh...  Gettin' there...


----------



## bowbe

4rons it is!



Case


----------



## ColonelHardisson

Glyfair said:
			
		

> To me, that's pretty normal.  Even if things are rough you don't tell the fans before you the employees.  When you are part of a publicly traded company you don't tell the fans before you tell the stockholders.
> 
> Besides "everything is okey-dokey" is such a vague statement is can mean many things.  D&D wasn't folded, so that fits the definition from one point-of-view.




Yeah, see, as I recall, after Monte left, people were flat-out asking if WotC was about to lay off more people, and the answer was no. But it was a 6-7 years ago, and I won't say my memory is precise. It's too bad nothing from that era message-board-wise still exists.





			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> I wasn't part of that.  I don't know what miscommunications there might have been or whether Necromancer was talking to someone that had the ability to reach that agreement.  Besides, it meant little to me to begin with.  I don't care that WotC did versions later, and never expected they wouldn't.  Regarding the project, they were pretty generous even allowing Necromancer to have all the access to their IP.




Are you a WotC employee? I didn't know that. Regardless, the NG guys were pretty clear about their dealings with WotC, and discussed it often. It wasn't ambiguous at all. Maybe we could lure Clark Peterson over to address the topic. I agree that WotC was generous, but that doesn't mean going back on their word on something like that won't hurt their credibility.



			
				Glyfair said:
			
		

> However, the "major D&D Announcements will be made at the D&D Xperience" was pretty clear.  It also was made just over 6 months ago.  Pretty incredible that they would change their policy in that time.  If 4E is announced now it was in the works then.  They should have had a plan about when they would be announcing it then.




Now, to me, that announcement is a big "meh." So they change their mind and make the announcement at the biggest RPG convention in the world, the one associated very closely with D&D since the beginning, rather than their own "in house" con that, compared to Gen Con, isn't all that big.


----------



## Charwoman Gene

3diots.

Neo-retro-grognards.

3-kreens.

---C'mon, 6:30PM!


----------



## Wulf Ratbane

ashockney said:
			
		

> Just because nobody else has posted it yet, I believe we're counting down to 6:30pm tomorrow night on the first day of Gen Con.  Anyone got a copy of the schedule to see what's slotted for that time.  It's not the opening of the con, or the opening of the dealer hall, etc...




Their press conference, if I am not mistaken.


----------



## Baron Opal

No, it's for a game involving a four-sided reality / dimensions that disabuses the God-lie rectifing the false historians and the misleading demogaugery. Generating charaters under the true light / dark - high / low paradigm consistant with revolving time you then pursue the TRUTH SELF-EVIDENT for those who desire ILLUMINATION and FREEDOM from false / misleading RPGs.


----------



## Aus_Snow

Some days do indeed produce a greater volume of. . . hilarity. That and its consistency are the only variables, I'm told.


----------



## Anson Caralya

DarkKestral said:
			
		

> Wow. I thought nobody understood 3.5 _polymorph_, just like no one understands quantum mechanics.




Yup, it all just suddenly became clear to me last night, looking through tired eyes at the FAQ, but then the Vogon constructor fleet appeared in the sky this morning and there's some type of countdown going on...


----------



## Glyfair

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> Are you a WotC employee? I didn't know that. Regardless, the NG guys were pretty clear about their dealings with WotC, and discussed it often. It wasn't ambiguous at all. Maybe we could lure Clark Peterson over to address the topic. I agree that WotC was generous, but that doesn't mean going back on their word on something like that won't hurt their credibility.



No.  By "I wasn't part of that" I meant that I never read direct comments about the "promise" and never got involved in discussion of the controversy.  It was a non-factor for me for reasons already stated.


----------



## Xyxox

EricNoah said:
			
		

> This is the day EN World dies.




Why would that be the case?


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

frankthedm said:
			
		

> Could be  4E, though it could be made to look likes such to give the Digital initiative the feel of a fresh start. And to muck with the heads of those who worry about a 4th edition.



I'm also thinking that it might be easier to implement a brand new website if they bring the old one down 24 hours in advance, considering the scope of the changes that are apparently to be made.


----------



## MrFilthyIke

Sound of Azure said:
			
		

> WotC just bought 4chan




That's my vote.


----------



## EricNoah

Xyxox said:
			
		

> Why would that be the case?




The madness, the mayhem, the 3etards vs. the 4rons, brothers killing brothers, dogs and cats living together.  We'll never be the same again!


----------



## ColonelHardisson

Glyfair said:
			
		

> No.  By "I wasn't part of that" I meant that I never read direct comments about the "promise" and never got involved in discussion of the controversy.  It was a non-factor for me for reasons already stated.




Fair enough. The Blizzard thing is completely off my radar, so has no bearing on my opinion, either.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Baron Opal said:
			
		

> No, it's for a game involving a four-sided reality / dimensions that disabuses the God-lie rectifing the false historians and the misleading demogaugery. Generating charaters under the true light / dark - high / low paradigm consistant with revolving time you then pursue the TRUTH SELF-EVIDENT for those who desire ILLUMINATION and FREEDOM from false / misleading RPGs.



Have you been reading Time Cube?


----------



## Charwoman Gene

EricNoah said:
			
		

> The madness, the mayhem, the 3etards vs. the 4rons, brothers killing brothers, dogs and cats living together.  We'll never be the same again!




It's 3-kreens vs. 4-skins, get it right, Eric Noah.

Don't you have a Tiger Beat cover to shoot, library boy?


----------



## heirodule

too soon for 4th edition. really disappointed if thats it, at least, if I have to render all my books useless for RPGA play now.

sucks.


----------



## Baron Opal

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> Have you been reading Time Cube?




I knew you were going to say that. I am no longer imprisoned in linear time.


----------



## EricNoah

Charwoman Gene said:
			
		

> Don't you have a Tiger Beat cover to shoot, library boy?




It's not Tiger Beat, but will this do?


----------



## Talath

People who switch to 4e are a bunch of 4ckers

Did I cross the line that everyone else instinctively knows not to?


----------



## Nyarlathotep

EricNoah said:
			
		

> It's not Tiger Beat, but will this do?




rofl.

Kind of a small target demographic though


----------



## EricNoah

Talath said:
			
		

> People who switch to 4e are a bunch of 4ckers
> 
> Did I cross the line that everyone else instinctively knows not to?




"Over the line?? You went so far _past _ the line that you can't even _see _ the line.  The line is a dot to you!"

(Thank you Joey!)


----------



## Vocenoctum

EricNoah said:
			
		

> The madness, the mayhem, the 3etards vs. the 4rons, brothers killing brothers, dogs and cats living together.  We'll never be the same again!




I had a gnome thief illusionist named Mas Hysteria.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Charwoman Gene said:
			
		

> It's 3-kreens vs. 4-skins, get it right, Eric Noah.
> 
> Don't you have a Tiger Beat cover to shoot, library boy?



4rons & 4 skins.  Keep 'em coming.  They might yet come in handy.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard

Talath said:
			
		

> People who switch to 4e are a bunch of 4ckers
> 
> Did I cross the line that everyone else instinctively knows not to?



 There's crossing the line, and there's crossing the line with _style_.


----------



## T. Foster

Re: derogatory term for 4Dventure fans, one I remember hearing a couple years ago (during a previous round of rampant 4E speculation) that struck me as particularly funny and rude was "4skins" 

EDIT: beaten to the 4skin punch  guess you've got to be speedy at ENWorld!


----------



## Xyxox

Son_of_Thunder said:
			
		

> 4dventure is now officially more lame than Gleemax.




I cedrtainly cannot deny that.

The artwork suX0r, too. I mean, everybody knows the 3E artwork was much better than this crappy 4E artwork (somebody had to say it).


----------



## Charwoman Gene

3 and a half edition is stupid and evil.

GNS triangle plus the self makes 4 sides in one edition.

Gygax and too many Cooks makes stupid and evil to your extra half side stupidity.

4dventure is the new way.


----------



## EricNoah

T. Foster said:
			
		

> Re: derogatory term for 4Dventure fans, one I remember hearing a couple years ago (during a previous round of rampant 4E speculation) that struck me as particularly funny and rude was "4skins"




You are apparently imprisoned in linear time...


----------



## HeinorNY

I'll go for 4E!
I'm gonna 4ckerize as many as I can!


----------



## frankthedm

Ihe life run of 3.5 has had the majority of the books I expected from it

PHB x2
DMG x2
MMx4  3.5, III, IV, V
7 Complete Player books
Dragon book 
A few environment books
A few race books
Horror book
Cthulhiod book
Mini book 
Mass battle book
Tome of magic
Spell compendium
Magic item compendium

SO maybe the time is right.


----------



## ColonelHardisson

EricNoah said:
			
		

> You are apparently imprisoned in linear time...




Yes, EricNoah2075 could've told us all about it, but nooooooo, you had to go and make him stop posting!


----------



## EricNoah

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> Yes, EricNoah2075 could've told us all about it, but nooooooo, you had to go and make him stop posting!




That idiot was trying to mess with the Temporal Prime Directive!!


----------



## der_kluge

catsclaw227 said:
			
		

> WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWW!!!!!!!
> 
> Not sure whether to be excited or bummed that I just bought a bunch of 3.x d20 stuff today on Amazon.




Hah!  I just put a bid on Some 1977 Judge's Guild stuff on eBay.  That stuff just got really, really old.


FWIW, Gen Con week is the best time to bid on eBay stuff!!


----------



## Charwoman Gene

T. Foster said:
			
		

> EDIT: beaten to the 4skin punch  guess you've got to be speedy at ENWorld!




Your MULTIPLE limbs impeded you 3-kreen.

--Proud 4-skin


----------



## Razz

Bah, you guys are reading TOO much into this.

"4dventure" stands for "4 Days of Adventure" because when the timer counts down, it'll be 4 days of GenCon...which is a rather adventurous place.

4E...hah!   (as you can tell...I'm in a lot of denial...heh heh)


----------



## ColonelHardisson

EricNoah said:
			
		

> That idiot was trying to mess with the Temporal Prime Directive!!




You'd think you'd've gotten wiser with age.


----------



## Xyxox

EricNoah said:
			
		

> The madness, the mayhem, the 3etards vs. the 4rons, brothers killing brothers, dogs and cats living together.  We'll never be the same again!




Ahhhh, it wasn't that bad when 3.0 was announced.

Come to think of it, yeah, it was....


----------



## Vocenoctum

frankthedm said:
			
		

> Ihe life run of 3.5 has had the majority of the books I expected from it
> 
> 
> SO maybe the time is right.





Really seems to make the Rules Cyclopedia pointless if those rules are all dead though, nay?


----------



## EricNoah

Oh my gosh -- he was trying to warn me.  Each new edition of D&D stole part of his mental capacity!!  I guess sticking with 3e is the only way to keep my intellect intact...


----------



## scourger

No, they are clearly *4sakers* who have *4saken* _the_ game.


----------



## ColonelHardisson

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Oh my gosh -- he was trying to warn me.  Each new edition of D&D stole part of his mental capacity!!  I guess sticking with 3e is the only way to keep my intellect intact...




...a warning, yes...but perhaps he _did_ stick with 3e...


----------



## Razz

Is it me, or is that logo in the center one of two things:

An artistic symbol of a "dragon"....or the top part of the April Fool's Joke "4E" logo they did a few years ago...?

Does anyone have an image of that logo?


----------



## Friadoc

Umm, okay, it seems the WotC site is back to normal.

Weird, no?


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

scourger said:
			
		

> No, they are clearly *4sakers* who have *4saken* _the_ game.



You, Sir, have just won the internet.


----------



## Charwoman Gene

Razz said:
			
		

> Bah, you guys are reading TOO much into this.
> 
> "4dventure" stands for "4 Days of Adventure" because when the timer counts down, it'll be 4 days of GenCon...which is a rather adventurous place.
> 
> 4E...hah!   (as you can tell...I'm in a lot of denial...heh heh)




Dude, if you are right, you win ENWorld.


----------



## Talath

scourger said:
			
		

> No, they are clearly *4sakers* who have *4saken* _the_ game.




People who switch to 4e have 4gotten their roots and where they came from. 3e baby all the way! I'll never stop partying!


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

Razz said:
			
		

> Is it me, or is that logo in the center one of two things:
> 
> An artistic symbol of a "dragon"....or the top part of the April Fool's Joke "4E" logo they did a few years ago...?
> 
> Does anyone have an image of that logo?



It looks to me more like one of the older "D&D" logos.


----------



## Charwoman Gene

I am looking 4ward to un4gettable fun.


----------



## MerricB

Ok, I'm scared.

Cheers!


----------



## ColonelHardisson

Friadoc said:
			
		

> Umm, okay, it seems the WotC site is back to normal.
> 
> Weird, no?




The site in general. But try to click on the D&D pages.


----------



## Talath

Charwoman Gene said:
			
		

> I am looking 4ward to un4gettable fun.




Personally, I'm holding out 4 WotC to do a D&D4e/WoW crossover

Undead Ninja/Warlock/Rogue/Samurai 4tw!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Digital M@

Geron Raveneye said:
			
		

> will this be the next edition then that starts out fresh, exciting and simple, only to be buried under the masses of new options, splatbooks and sourcebooks two years later? It looks so new and innocent on that page.





I remember thinking that about 3E.  I was dreaming about how th e power gamers and rule nuts would be squished, at least temporarily.  Alas, I was wrong, those people knew the rules forward and backwards, what balanced and what idi not 12 hours after buying the book.  In that time they had read the book three times and squashed my dream.


----------



## ColonelHardisson

Talath said:
			
		

> Personally, I'm holding out 4 WotC to do a D&D4e/WoW crossover




Don't just stand there; get crackin' on Malls & Morons 4e...


----------



## EricNoah

Friadoc said:
			
		

> Umm, okay, it seems the WotC site is back to normal.
> 
> Weird, no?




I'm still seeing it here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/welcome

Just in case it does go away, here's the image.


----------



## Friadoc

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> The site in general. But try to click on the D&D pages.




Yeah, interesting. d20 Modern, Star Wars, TCG stuff, et all, goes to their normal sites, but the D&D link only pulls up the 4dventure thing.

Hmm.


----------



## EricNoah

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> Don't just stand there; get crackin' on Malls & Morons 4e...



Don't you mean...

M4lls and 4rons?


----------



## Talath

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> Don't just stand there; get crackin' on Malls & Morons 4e...




Damnit! I'm still working on M&M 3e ...

Oh well, I guess I can delete everything on the wiki and start over ...

M&M4e coming in 2013


----------



## Vocenoctum

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> It looks to me more like one of the older "D&D" logos.




It reminded me of 3 Dragon Ante


----------



## Chaldfont

I don't want to get in the way of your 4-jokes or even stop someone quoting timecube (cause I loves me some timecube), but I was reading the Gen Con program tonight deciding what to do and there's a full page add about this.

4dventure, Thursday 6:30pm, Sagamore Ballroom.

There's a bunch of dice all on 4 and the watermark is of the dragon '&' symbol in "D&D".


----------



## Talath

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Don't you mean...
> 
> M4lls and 4rons?




Hey, whose side are you on?


----------



## Friadoc

EricNoah said:
			
		

> I'm still seeing it here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/welcome
> 
> Just in case it does go away, here's the image.





It's also here - http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eberron

And here - http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fr/welcome

Only D&D stuff, which really points more towards either 4th edition, the DI being pre-labelled with forethought of 4e, or just an odd take on the DI branding.


----------



## frankthedm

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Really seems to make the Rules Cyclopedia pointless if those rules are all dead though, nay?



Not at all. Wotc knows some folks won't buy 4E. A Compendium of 3E material can still sell to 3E's audience. Heck, if new material is added to the system that makes 'compendiums' _less_ usefull.

TBH Spell and magic item compendiums popingt out recently problaby should have been a big sign...


----------



## EricNoah

Chaldfont said:
			
		

> I don't want to get in the way of your 4-jokes or even stop someone quoting timecube (cause I loves me some timecube), but I was reading the Gen Con program tonight deciding what to do and there's a full page add about this.
> 
> 4dventure, Thursday 6:30pm, Sagamore Ballroom.
> 
> There's a bunch of dice all on 4 and the watermark is of the dragon '&' symbol in "D&D".




Yeah, that sounds like what we're seeing on the website... Vewy intewesting....


----------



## Remathilis

I'm not a betting man, but...

50% chance: 4e
30% DI/Gleemax Announcement
10% General Gen-con Stuff (4 days of adventure)
05% Some unannounced project
04% An April Fools Style Publicity Stunt
01% Other (WotC sold, D&D sold, the web team can't spell, etc)

BTW: Isn't it funny we get this announcement and the FIRST thing we come up with is a derogative term to call its supporters (whatever "it" may be?)


----------



## Charwoman Gene

MerricB said:
			
		

> Ok, I'm scared.
> 
> Cheers!




Can I be the new optimist?


----------



## johnnype

I don't know if I'll ever get to sleep tonight. 

We're such geeks.


----------



## Nyarlathotep

Chaldfont said:
			
		

> I don't want to get in the way of your 4-jokes or even stop someone quoting timecube (cause I loves me some timecube), but I was reading the Gen Con program tonight deciding what to do and there's a full page add about this.
> 
> 4dventure, Thursday 6:30pm, Sagamore Ballroom.
> 
> There's a bunch of dice all on 4 and the watermark is of the dragon '&' symbol in "D&D".





SPOILER!


----------



## EricNoah

Remathilis said:
			
		

> BTW: Isn't it funny we get this announcement and the FIRST thing we come up with is a derogative term to call its supporters (whatever "it" may be?)




Gotta have priorities!


----------



## Xyxox

So if there is no 4.0 version of the SRD released under the OGL, will that mean D&D development will fork?


----------



## Friadoc

johnnype said:
			
		

> I don't know if I'll ever get to sleep tonight.
> 
> We're such geeks.





Oddly enough, I was thinking the exact same thing.

That and I've talked with various people who seem to know what is about to be announced, but don't wanna rain on anyone's parade, yet it is SOOoooOOOOO hard for me not to bug the snot out of them.

Fortunately one of them is off the grid today, so I couldn't get ahold of him to save my life.

See, this is why I really want in the industry, emotion and economic paycheck aside, I just wanna know stuff first.


----------



## ColonelHardisson

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Don't you mean...
> 
> M4lls and 4rons?




OMG, the slippage is already happening! EricNoah2075, where are you when we need you most?!?


----------



## freyar

Xyxox said:
			
		

> So if there is no 4.0 version of the SRD released under the OGL, will that mean D&D development will fork?




It'll mean that the Creature Catalog will get a chance to catch up, since it won't be able to convert all the monsters to 4e!


----------



## Lanefan

While I suspect the 4e announcement speculation might be correct, I just had a totally different thought as to what they might mean by "4D":

D+D Digital Domain - or something similar - DDDD - 4D.

In other words, what they're promoting is nothing more than the D+D wing of Gleemax.  This would also explain why the D+D wing of the main WotC site is down; if it's in process of being moved into Gleemax...

Lane-"throwing another log on the speculative fire"-fan


----------



## Korgoth

EricNoah said:
			
		

> I'm still seeing it here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/welcome
> 
> Just in case it does go away, here's the image.




Interesting.  For some reason, I wasn't getting a scroll bar (b/c of Mozilla?) so I didn't see the whole image.

It could just be a "GenCon" thing... but that's clearly "D&D" behind all those 4-showing dice.


----------



## Razz

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> It looks to me more like one of the older "D&D" logos.




Ok, you're right. For some reason it only showed the top half of those symbols.


----------



## Remathilis

Xyxox said:
			
		

> So if there is no 4.0 version of the SRD released under the OGL, will that mean D&D development will fork?




I think that would be safe to say, with the majority of d20 publishers using some "new" version of the SRD (published in book form, like under "d20 fantasy") while WotC (and perhaps a chosen few) would work under 4e's new mechanics/banner.

We shall see.


----------



## Abisashi

On a barely related note, in M:tG slang, DI means infinite (from Der Infinite*). This makes reading about the Digital Initiative very confusing for me, because the first translation my brain offers is the Magic one.


I now return you to your regul4rly scheduled thre4d.



*This is probably mispelled. I think it is German.


----------



## EricNoah

Xyxox said:
			
		

> So if there is no 4.0 version of the SRD released under the OGL, will that mean D&D development will fork?




That's such a big "if" I don't even want to think about it yet.  Yikes.  You know, on one hand it would be stupid for WotC to essentially encourage 3rd party publishing to stick with 3E by not allowing them to publish material for 4E, thus encouraging a split gaming community. On the other hand ... I can see a different type of licensing that is more restrictive appealing to WotC.  I just can't call it either way...


----------



## Razz

Yeah, crap, I can't sleep tonight either. And I got a long day of work...then a few more hours after that before someone posts what the hell it's all about.

I hope it's just about the DI thing, really.

And all I came on the website to do was see if the *Forgotten Realms Class Chronicles * article was up because I wanted to see Eytan Bernstein's awesome work on that series, the topic now on "Incarnum in the Realms." 

Bummer.


----------



## The Grumpy Celt

(Grumpy steps up to the microphone, carefully adjusts it, takes a sip of water, clears his throat...)

*My hat of e4 know no limit!*


----------



## Talath

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> (Grumpy steps up to the microphone, carefully adjusts it, takes a sip of water, clears his throat...)
> 
> *My hat of e4 know no limit!*




IT IS MORE OF A ROLLPALYING GAME THEN A ROLEPLAYING GAM!!!!!!!!


----------



## freyar

Another thought occurred to me: it could just be that WotC has decided that the new default setting for D&D will be the 4gotten Realms.  

Well, I think 4e is the most likely thing, though it could just have been a funny choice of name for the digital initiative.  I guess I'll stick with 3.5, though, as I have a number of books now but have barely gotten to play.


----------



## Charwoman Gene

So, do you think they'll change the mini scale to force re-buying them all?


----------



## EricNoah

Talath said:
			
		

> IT IS MORE OF A ROLLPALYING GAME THEN A ROLEPLAYING GAM!!!!!!!!




IT'S THE DUMBING DOWN OF THE HOBBY!


----------



## Xyxox

EricNoah said:
			
		

> That's such a big "if" I don't even want to think about it yet.  Yikes.  You know, on one hand it would be stupid for WotC to essentially encourage 3rd party publishing to stick with 3E by not allowing them to publish material for 4E, thus encouraging a split gaming community. On the other hand ... I can see a different type of licensing that is more restrictive appealing to WotC.  I just can't call it either way...




Seeing these sorts of issues crop up with the open source community over the years, it was the first thought that came to my mind.

I keep going back to the whole Ethereal/Wireshark fork.

Or should I say 4k?


----------



## ColonelHardisson

If it isn't 4e they're announcing, then we'll know they've lost their minds. Including the number "4" so prominently in any announcement about D&D, given the furor over a rumored 4e, may just be someone trying to be cute, but it invites a ton of negative feedback. Y'know, all the wailing and gnashing of teeth from those who won't appreciate the joke. As opposed to all the wailing and gnashing of teeth that has already come from all the 4e rumors thus far.


----------



## HeinorNY

freyar said:
			
		

> ...though it could just have been a funny choice of name for the digital initiative.




If that happens to be the case I won't think it was a funny choice, I'll be pissed off!
With all those 4s floating around I really hope it's simply D&D 4E, not because I want it so bad, but I don't like to be fooled.


----------



## s.j. bagley

Abisashi said:
			
		

> On a barely related note, in M:tG slang, DI means infinite (from Der Infinite*). This makes reading about the Digital Initiative very confusing for me, because the first translation my brain offers is the Magic one.
> 
> 
> I now return you to your regul4rly scheduled thre4d.
> 
> 
> 
> *This is probably mispelled. I think it is German.



in german 'the infinite' would be das unendliche.


----------



## cthulhu_duck

http://www.4dventure.com/



> "What you need, when you need it"


----------



## Friadoc

EricNoah said:
			
		

> That's such a big "if" I don't even want to think about it yet.  Yikes.  You know, on one hand it would be stupid for WotC to essentially encourage 3rd party publishing to stick with 3E by not allowing them to publish material for 4E, thus encouraging a split gaming community. On the other hand ... I can see a different type of licensing that is more restrictive appealing to WotC.  I just can't call it either way...




It depends on who makes that call, really.

If the call is made by someone thinking of the community and the hobby, trying to balance it with business, then the next edition will be as OGL as the current edition.

But, if the call is made purely from a corporate stand point, with less thought to the hobby and community and focus more on market share and profit, then a whole lot less, if not the elimination of OGL.

Although I have to say that I'm biased, as any freelance with only d20/OGL credits to his name would be, but I think keeping the OGL/d20 is the best choice, since the community really supports it.

Any drastic or huge change to that would really send shockwaves down the line and, potentially, drive a lot of people to other venues, thusly hurting WotC more than helping it.

That said, companies with their own OGL only products, or own branded ones (i.e. Green Ronin's True20)  are gonna be set for a potential boom.


----------



## Abisashi

s.j. bagley said:
			
		

> in german 'the infinite' would be das unendliche.




An internet search suggests that Der Infinite is not actually German. I'm not sure where it came from originally. Regardless, it is still confusing to me


----------



## smilinggm

This is Definatly the announcment of 4E!!!!  

Check http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=686 out if you doubt.


----------



## jdrakeh

I'm 80% certain that it'll be a 4e announcement (though not necessarily the dread "4e is here!" announcement that everybody seems to be projecting). There have been some HUGE-ISH flags to indicate that a new edition will be upon us for a while in terms of release schedule focus, license expirations without renewal, etc. And of course there were all of those "Absolutely not!" announcements. . . which, for those familiar with the run-up to new editions of other games and previous new editions of D&D, were HUGE-ISH flags in and of themselves


----------



## Festivus

Remathilis said:
			
		

> I think that would be safe to say, with the majority of d20 publishers using some "new" version of the SRD (published in book form, like under "d20 fantasy") while WotC (and perhaps a chosen few) would work under 4e's new mechanics/banner.
> 
> We shall see.




If they did, they would be wise to look at the past lesson with IBMs decision to go MCA (Microchannel) versus PCI for everyone else in the known universe.

Sorry, I am a geek:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_Channel_architecture


----------



## Remathilis

4dventure.com

Services from Network Solutions:
Certified Offer Service - Let us help you get this domain name!
Backorder - Try to get this name when it becomes available.
SSL Certificates - Get peace of mind with a secure certificate.

You have attempted to access the whois service for nameking.com > 20 times today from 
205.178.188.17, try again tommorrow.  If you require more requests please contact 
info@nameking.com with your request.

The previous information has been obtained either directly from the registrant or a registrar of the domain name other than Network Solutions. Network Solutions, therefore, does not guarantee its accuracy or completeness.

Show underlying registry data for this record

Current Registrar: 	NAMEKING.COM, INC.
IP Address: 	208.73.212.12 (ARIN & RIPE IP search)
IP Location: 	US(UNITED STATES)-CALIFORNIA-LOS ANGELES
Record Type: 	Domain Name
Server Type: 	Apache
Lock Status: 	clientTransferProhibited
Web Site Status: 	Active
DMOZ 	no listings
Y! Directory: 	see listings
Secure: 	No
E-commerce: 	No
Traffic Ranking: 	Not available
Data as of: 	14-Jun-2005


----------



## Friadoc

cthulhu_duck said:
			
		

> http://www.4dventure.com/




Freakin' squatters.

However, their whois shows that the domain expires on the 29th of this month, so maybe they're a holding company.

Fortunately, it's obvious that they're not an opportunistic squatter, since the domain was registered in '06.


----------



## catsclaw227

Some more 4e breadcrumbs....

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=905847

http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=686

This sounds fairly official to me.


----------



## EricNoah

None of those Gleemax links works for me.  Do I have to be registered to read that forum?


----------



## jdrakeh

catsclaw227 said:
			
		

> Some more 4e breadcrumbs....
> 
> http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=905847
> 
> This sounds fairly official to me.




I'd say so. Thanks for the link.


----------



## Talath

Posted from the Wizards.com forums (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=905847)

"Hello All.

The announcement of 4th Edition is a pretty big event for all RPG fans. It's a huge event for all of us at Wizards of the Coast, including WotC staff and our WizO support team. We understand that this is something many of you are going to feel very passionate about in a number of ways.

We've created this forum for few reasons. We want everyone to have a single discussion forum where they can get answers and information directly from the D&D staff. We also want to prevent the other forums from being overwhelmed with 4E posts to the point that it drowns out any of the natural discussion in those areas. Additionally, I want to have a single forum where our community can post their hopes, fears, concerns, and dreams about 4E. This will make it easier for the D&D staff to read community feedback, and to (hopefully) provide a lot of answers to your questions.

The WizOs will be moderating this forum and others. They are acting on the direction of Wizards of the Coast, so if you're upset with their moderation, please don't take it out on the WizOs. Their goals will be clear: Keep 4th Edition discussion in the 4E forum. This might mean locking threads and/or moving posts. 

If you have concerns, questions, or issues about the forum moderation taking place after the 4th Edition announcement, I've created a thread here where you may discuss your concerns.

Finally, please try to be respectful in your posts and comments. Be nice to other posters, the WizOs, and WotC staff. The WizOs will be enforcing all Code of Conduct rules on all forums as usual.

If you have any suggestions or ideas on how I can do a better job of helping to facilitate communication between the D&D Staff and the Community, I've created a thread here. 

Thanks!
-Mike"


----------



## jdrakeh

EricNoah said:
			
		

> None of those Gleemax links works for me.  Do I have to be registered to read that forum?




I had to log in to read them.


----------



## Xyxox

smilinggm said:
			
		

> This is Definatly the announcment of 4E!!!!
> 
> Check http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=686 out if you doubt.




No doubt whatsoever now.


----------



## smilinggm

EricNoah said:
			
		

> None of those Gleemax links works for me.  Do I have to be registered to read that forum?




Appairently


----------



## ColonelHardisson

jdrakeh said:
			
		

> I'd say so. Thanks for the link.




Perhaps share with the class?

EDIT: I see someone already covered it.


----------



## marionde

Yes, I had to log in to view the WOTC forums.  Looks like the age of 4E is upon us.


----------



## psionotic

The fact that all the 4e forums @ Gleemax were created yesterday seems fairly conclusive, I'd say.


----------



## jdrakeh

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> Perhaps share with the class?




See Talath's post, above.


----------



## smilinggm

Cut and Pasted from the WOCT Site:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



> Hello All.
> 
> The announcement of 4th Edition is a pretty big event for all RPG fans. It's a huge event for all of us at Wizards of the Coast, including WotC staff and our WizO support team. We understand that this is something many of you are going to feel very passionate about in a number of ways.
> 
> We've created this forum for few reasons. We want everyone to have a single discussion forum where they can get answers and information directly from the D&D staff. We also want to prevent the other forums from being overwhelmed with 4E posts to the point that it drowns out any of the natural discussion in those areas. Additionally, I want to have a single forum where our community can post their hopes, fears, concerns, and dreams about 4E. This will make it easier for the D&D staff to read community feedback, and to (hopefully) provide a lot of answers to your questions.
> 
> The WizOs will be moderating this forum and others. They are acting on the direction of Wizards of the Coast, so if you're upset with their moderation, please don't take it out on the WizOs. Their goals will be clear: Keep 4th Edition discussion in the 4E forum. This might mean locking threads and/or moving posts.
> 
> If you have concerns, questions, or issues about the forum moderation taking place after the 4th Edition announcement, I've created a thread here where you may discuss your concerns.
> 
> Finally, please try to be respectful in your posts and comments. Be nice to other posters, the WizOs, and WotC staff. The WizOs will be enforcing all Code of Conduct rules on all forums as usual.
> 
> If you have any suggestions or ideas on how I can do a better job of helping to facilitate communication between the D&D Staff and the Community, I've created a thread here.
> 
> Thanks!
> -Mike
> __________________
> Mike Lescault
> Online Communities Manager
> Wizards of the Coast
> Host of Gamer Radio Zero


----------



## EricNoah

Thanks Talath!


----------



## jgbrowning

EricNoah said:
			
		

> That's such a big "if" I don't even want to think about it yet.  Yikes.  You know, on one hand it would be stupid for WotC to essentially encourage 3rd party publishing to stick with 3E by not allowing them to publish material for 4E, thus encouraging a split gaming community. On the other hand ... I can see a different type of licensing that is more restrictive appealing to WotC.  I just can't call it either way...




From my understanding, yes. Not open, but licensed products from 3rd party publishers. I am roughly 90% certain of this latter part. I am 100% certain of 4E announcement and have been for over a week, but didn't want to spoil anyones announcements.

But now that it's announced I can finally say something.... *if been bursting to say something* 

joe b.


----------



## marionde

My first attempt at attachments.  Sorry if this doesn't work.


----------



## catsclaw227

Yes,  And it looks fairly official.  Here's a snapshot.


----------



## jdrakeh

marionde said:
			
		

> Yes, I had to log in to view the WOTC forums.  Looks like the age of 4E is upon us.




It might be upon _you_ but I've dropped about 1k on 3.5 books in the last five months, so unless I'm hired to work on 4e (or they're doping the paperstock) I doubt that _I_ will be doing much with it until it's at least a few years old 

[Edit: That said, I am warm and fuzzy right now, knowing that somewhere in Montevideo, a delusion has just crashed head first into reality with disastrous results.]


----------



## EricNoah

So is "D&D Insider" the name of the digital initiative?


----------



## catsclaw227

*D&D Insider * looks to be the official name of the Digital Initiative.


----------



## freyar

Anyone else notice that they had the courtesy to start a "doomsday thread"? :\


----------



## TerraDave

*Called it*

trepidation is overwhelmed by a strong desire to gloat. 

but sleep conquers all. more tomorow.


----------



## catsclaw227

Some more images;


----------



## Korgoth

Well, now I've moved from wondering if it's really 4E to wondering what 4E will be like.

It's interesting, I guess... especially combined with that cryptic thing of the "monster idol" from the 1E PHB and all that.  I don't like what 3.X is "about"... I wonder if 4E will go back to the roots?


----------



## Inferno!

Did you notice the date on that message - it was posted yesterday?   (You may have to log in to see it)  How'd we miss it for so long?


----------



## EricNoah

freyar said:
			
		

> Anyone else notice that they had the courtesy to start a "doomsday thread"? :\




Gotta hand it to them, they know their audience!


----------



## Zaukrie

I still use a lot of 2E edition stuff, I imagine I will use a bunch of 3E stuff too, even after I convert. Why all the hate, was that just humor?


----------



## Shawn_Kehoe

smilinggm said:
			
		

> This is Definatly the announcment of 4E!!!!
> 
> Check http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=686 out if you doubt.




Campaign Vault / Character Vault?
D&D Game Table?
Character Creator?

Yeah, looks like Wizards wants to make D&D as easy to play online as Magic online. On the bright side, we should be able to bring our toys from table to net and back, unlike those virtual magic cards.

Now REMEMBER THE MAC USERS!!!!


----------



## Ambrus

Hm. The creation of a slew of 4e forums on the WotC boards pretty much nixes all of the speculation involved over the mysterious 4dventure page. Why even bother with a countdown? Now we know 4th edition is officially coming in 2008, most likely at next year's GenCon. What's left to learn except perhaps the future of the OGL? I wonder how the WotC speakers will address the accusations they'll receive about having lied about planning the release of 4e. :\


----------



## EricNoah

Well there are a lot of D&D players who aren't as plugged in as we are.  It'll still be a surprise for a lot of folks.


----------



## Zaukrie

Agreed. Many, many won't know until tomorrow. Heck, we know before all those people that went to Indy.


----------



## Ambrus

Shawn_Kehoe said:
			
		

> Now REMEMBER THE MAC USERS!!!!



*HEAR! HEAR!*


----------



## jdrakeh

Ambrus said:
			
		

> I wonder how the WotC speakers will address the accusations they'll receive about having lied about planning the release of 4e. :\




They'll probably say "DUH!" and then point out that the staff of TSR, SJG, and pretty much every other game company in existence has done the same thing prior to releasing a new edition of a popular game (or selling a popular IP, etc). Keeping the cat in the bag is pretty much standard practice when the future of popular IP is up in the air.


----------



## marionde

Zaukrie said:
			
		

> Agreed. Many, many won't know until tomorrow. Heck, we know before all those people that went to Indy.




So we are lucky to be at home instead of GenCon?


----------



## Xyxox

Zaukrie said:
			
		

> Agreed. Many, many won't know until tomorrow. Heck, we know before all those people that went to Indy.




I guess us non-GenCon-goers got the consolation prize this year, eh?


----------



## Friadoc

Shawn_Kehoe said:
			
		

> Now REMEMBER THE MAC USERS!!!!




I second that statement, as well as add the leverage of being an IT Professional, as well as a freelance writer.

Currently, I'm 6-9 months out from switching over to Mac from PCs, with my only keeping a 'nix and windows PC for skillset reasons.

My main writing, surfing, and other computer usages will all be done via a Mac (hopefully, if all goes well, a tricked out Macbook Pro).

So, PLEASE, be fully Mac compliant, it would be so nice.


----------



## Ambrus

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Well there are a lot of D&D players who aren't as plugged in as we are.  It'll still be a surprise for a lot of folks.



There's free internet access at the Con. I imagine word will get around to those who care enough to attend the preview session long before it begins.

I'd hate to be that one guy in the room who gasps in shock when the speaker begins: "As you're probably all aware by now, we're officially announcing an upcoming 4e here tonight."


----------



## Friadoc

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Well there are a lot of D&D players who aren't as plugged in as we are.  It'll still be a surprise for a lot of folks.




Very true there, although it is becoming rare in the community and hobby to not be on-line to some degree, especially in the US.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, as it most obviously does, but I think as time goes by it'll be rarer and rarer.


----------



## bowbe

Hmm... if thats the logo (and hopefully it isn't)

It appears they takend the (D)ungeons & (D)ragons out of the equation. The must have seen that flick "The Gamers" or something. 

Of course everyone callse it D&D but I dunno, culture has been dumbed down enough already without reducing everything to even more acronyms. 

Maybe it will be a new trend. Instead of the iPhone 2.0 apple will try to copywright *IP*, then Jobs can claim he owns even more stuff he doesn't own. 

Case


----------



## Xyxox

Friadoc said:
			
		

> I second that statement, as well as add the leverage of being an IT Professional, as well as a freelance writer.
> 
> Currently, I'm 6-9 months out from switching over to Mac from PCs, with my only keeping a 'nix and windows PC for skillset reasons.
> 
> My main writing, surfing, and other computer usages will all be done via a Mac (hopefully, if all goes well, a tricked out Macbook Pro).
> 
> So, PLEASE, be fully Mac compliant, it would be so nice.




It'll all be Web 2.0 based in Java is my guess, so even Linux users should be able to use it.


----------



## EricNoah

Well I meant plugged in to the community, not just general online access.  How many folks have spent the past several hours dinking around on EN World and on WotC's forums?  In the grand scheme of D&D fandom, not a lot.


----------



## Friadoc

Xyxox said:
			
		

> I guess us non-GenCon-goers got the consolation prize this year, eh?




Maybe, but I so would have rather been there. Of course, I would have snagged a laptop with WiFi and been on-line, anyhow.

But, that said, with the exception of the 3e announcement (I ran a playtester group for it), this is the second most depressing "I couldn't go to Gencon" moment for me.

Not only because of the 4e stuff and potential spiff/promo material, but moreso because Castle Shadowcrag might get an Ennie and, as a patron, I would have love to been there to see it.

One day I will get to Gencon, this I SWEAR!

*grins*


----------



## Obscure

*Countdown to 4th edition*

Is it ironic that this page hasn't been locked out by the countdown?   

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20010401a


----------



## Friadoc

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Well I meant plugged in to the community, not just general online access.  How many folks have spent the past several hours dinking around on EN World and on WotC's forums?  In the grand scheme of D&D fandom, not a lot.




True, since the layoff I've been a net junkie, blogs, forums, and what not.

Heck, right after the layoff I was a real pain in the butt on the local news blogs about it all.

But, alas, I'm more subdued now, at least about being laid off from my work.


----------



## Friadoc

Obscure said:
			
		

> Is it ironic that this page hasn't been locked out by the countdown?
> 
> http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20010401a




That's because us geeks are way to into gallows humor, rat bastiches.


----------



## The Grumpy Celt

So....

4E is announced, or technically will be announced soon. But when will it actually be published and released? I'm guessing spring of '08.


----------



## Talath

Congratulations gentlemen: we've outlived yet another edition of D&D.

The third edition dream was a good dream while it lasted. We were gods among men; but somehow, someway, we knew it would end someday. 

And now, the inevitable looms on the horizon.


----------



## BiggusGeekus




----------



## freyar

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> So....
> 
> 4E is announced, or technically will be announced soon. But when will it actually be published and released? I'm guessing spring of '08.




You mean May, right after the nearly empty 1st quarter publication schedule?  Not a bad guess, and it's a 9 month lead-in.


----------



## Baron Opal

Oh, I'm sure it will be released Gencon of '08. that gives them a full year of hype and ironing out the last of the problems.

I was hoping for TimeCube RPG, but I guess will have to be stuck gaming in lateral time.

*sigh*


----------



## freyar

You know, one possible benefit is that maybe, just maybe, the 3e books will *all* be sold as PDFs and at the same ridiculously cheap prices as the other old edition books.  I could get behind that.


----------



## Remathilis

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> So....
> 
> 4E is announced, or technically will be announced soon. But when will it actually be published and released? I'm guessing spring of '08.




Summer. It gives them a bit more time for nostalgia items, world-ending modules, etc. Then, here come the Drums!


----------



## Xyxox

Wow, I posted a link to the 4E stuff on the WotC boards and the mods deleted it.

Oh well, only ENWorlders are privy, now.


----------



## TwinBahamut

Thanks to this thread, I already posted in the 4E Hallalujah thread and the 4E Eberron thread. Thanks for the advance notice.

Bring on 4E! I am ready and waiting! More Keith Baker in Eberron!

I am getting pretty excited, even though I am certain that they are going to announce the game for a fall '08 release.


----------



## Remathilis

So much for that. The Forum's locked. :-(. Hope they keep my posts though when it opens tomorrow...


----------



## ColonelHardisson

freyar said:
			
		

> You know, one possible benefit is that maybe, just maybe, the 3e books will *all* be sold as PDFs and at the same ridiculously cheap prices as the other old edition books.  I could get behind that.




Oh wow, I hadn't even thought of that. That would be nice.


----------



## Talath

The time of 3rd edition is now over! Let the 4th age of the 4th edition begin!

It is time for a new Eric Noah! Now we can sacrifice the old Eric Noah so that our crops will grow and our women will be fertile!


----------



## Thurbane

Disappointing news.

I guess I'll do what I did last time - I went from 2E to 3.5, skipping 3E altogether. I'll save my $$$ until "4E Revised" hits the shelves.

Coupled with the axing of Dragon and Dungeon makes, this has firmed my resolve to stick with the books I've already got, use free online resources and buy 3rd party products for all my D&D needs for the forseeable future.

...one thing I will say is I sure hope the transition from 3.5 to 4E is a lot smoother and more integrated than the jump from 2 to 3E. IMHO, the 3.5 system is prefectly workable as it is, and any future edition upgrades can only be for the purposes of grabbing some dollars.


----------



## Friadoc

Did the 4e Forum just become inaccessible for anyone else?


----------



## Inferno!

Yup, it appears they've locked down the forums.  I hit refresh and now I don't have access priviledges

I guess us finding out counts as a big oops on WoTC's part.


----------



## BiggusGeekus

(I forgot I had that one!)


----------



## EricNoah

The sadness for me is in the possibility that Paizo will go all-4E next year ... I'll only get a year's worth of their Pathfinder goodness.


----------



## heirodule

So Judging from the image, 4th edition is all about rolling less than average on most of the dice.

Who wants that


----------



## Nyarlathotep

I'm refusing to hit refresh, I'm going to leave that page up until it burns the image into my monitor..... just like it did my heart!


----------



## Xyxox

I guess I shouldn't have posted the link in the WotC forums.

Sorry.


----------



## Mouseferatu

Thurbane said:
			
		

> IMHO, the 3.5 system is prefectly workable as it is, and any future edition upgrades can only be for the purposes of grabbing some dollars.




I disagree. I think even a workable system can benefit from an occasional revamp and clean-up. There's a lot of baggage to 3E now, and while the _core_ D20 system is rock-solid, I think there are a lot of rules that can stand to be streamlined or redesigned.

As far as the news itself...

I'm stunned. I really thought it was going to be something else, and that 4E was further off. And I was really hoping to be a WotC employee by the time this happened, so I could have more of a direct hand in shaping it.

That said, I'm excited to see what's to come, and to be part of it to the fullest extent I can be as a freelancer.


----------



## Ambrus

Yeah. I'm blocked too. Darn. I was just about to start a Planescape 4e thread in the Other Worlds forum. 

I guess the 4e forums weren't intended to be generally accessible until tomorrow. Kudos to those who posted screen captures! Nothing escapes us here at ENworld!


----------



## Vocenoctum

Friadoc said:
			
		

> Did the 4e Forum just become inaccessible for anyone else?




If you noticed the top line, it was a WizO admin forum. No one was supposed to see it yet, when I'd assume they'll move it to the main forums.


----------



## wingsandsword

*sigh*

Well, if it's official, then that's the worst news I've heard in a long time.

Well, at least I'll be able to finish collecting 3.5 books, but now I'm going to end up a grognard bitterly refusing to play newfangled 

I find myself not only disinterested in 4e, but outright hostile to the concept.  The more I think of it, the less I think we need a new core edition, and the more I see myself finding my "retro" niche as a 3.5 guy.

When 3e was announced, I was cautiously optimistic since I knew 2e was way behind the times.  When 3.5 was announced, I knew 3e was good but had stuff that needed fixing.  Now, things work but I have the deep suspicion that this is nothing but a cash grab.

A new edition of D&D is coming out. . .just as Dragon and Dungon magazines die and their names are plundered for some pay-access website.  A new edition is announced at Gen Con just a few months after WotC said it would never be announced at Gen Con and would only be announced at Winter Fantasy.

WotC is going to have to utterly knock my socks off with this 4e for me to even do so much as buy a PHB.


----------



## Friadoc

EricNoah said:
			
		

> The sadness for me is in the possibility that Paizo will go all-4E next year ... I'll only get a year's worth of their Pathfinder goodness.




Yeah, I was having the same thought on this end, too.

But, that could depend, Paizo could go the OGL route, too, ala Green Ronin.

Or, maybe 4e is just a continued evolution, ala 3e to 3.5.

Heck, maybe they're lisencing Monte's system for Arcana Evolved.


----------



## MoogleEmpMog

Considering the huge leaps in d20 design since the release of 3.5, and the fact that 3.5 was already well behind WotC's own design curve relative to d20 Modern, I'd say there's more than enough design space for a D&D 4e.  If the improvement brings it even close to on par with the best Green Ronin d20 systems and Star Wars Saga, it will be worthy of that appellation.  If it goes much further, it will be as significant an upgrade as from 2e to 3e.


----------



## EricNoah

Ooh, the secrecy, the drama... anyone else getting all tingly?


----------



## Inferno!

You're not at GenCon Ari?


----------



## ColonelHardisson

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> I disagree. I think even a workable system can benefit from an occasional revamp and clean-up. There's a lot of baggage to 3E now, and while the _core_ D20 system is rock-solid, I think there are a lot of rules that can stand to be streamlined or redesigned.




That's pretty much my thought on it.

I also hope the Warlock becomes core...


----------



## Jonathan Drain

I'd heard about this a while ago, but. I started a blog entry as soon as I saw the 4DVENTURE page:

http://d20.jonnydigital.com/2007/08/wizards-to-announce-4th-edition-tomorrow

I'll keep abreast of updates on the blog.


----------



## Friadoc

Xyxox said:
			
		

> I guess I shouldn't have posted the link in the WotC forums.
> 
> Sorry.




No worries, it was bound to happen, sooner or later.

I mean, serious, WizOs were gonna notice the traffic. 

No harm, no foul..snitch.


----------



## Mouseferatu

Inferno! said:
			
		

> You're not at GenCon Ari?




Not yet. My flight leaves at (gulp) 6 am.


----------



## Talath

I for one welcome our new 4th edition overlords.


----------



## Baron Opal

Dang, bounced. I didn't even get a chance to get a sneak peek.

If I had a TimeCube they couldn't stop me, I wager.


----------



## BiggusGeekus

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> Well, if it's official, then that's the worst news I've heard in a long time.




And let's have a little perspective.  If this is really "bad" then things are pretty good, right?


----------



## Friadoc

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Ooh, the secrecy, the drama... anyone else getting all tingly?




I gotta admit, I'm anxious, but I'm a gamer geek for life, been so since 1980, when I was 6.

I own games that I've never even played, just because I liked them and they looked awesome, (Blue Planet 2.0 and GURPS 4th Edition).

Plus games I loved, but only play occassionally (Alternity, especially Dark*Matter).


----------



## EricNoah

My goal is to stick with 3e and yet avoid becoming a bitter grognard.  Possible?  We'll find out...


----------



## Charwoman Gene

Baron Opal said:
			
		

> If I had a TimeCube they couldn't stop me, I wager.




Wiz_O's are educated stupid and evil.


----------



## Hjorimir

Talath said:
			
		

> I for one welcome our new 4th edition overlords.



You know, I've seen that quote modified a million times, but this is the first time I laughed out loud. Don't ask me why, but it just really strikes me as funny.

Granted, I'm excited and optimistic about a new edition of the game.


----------



## Mouseferatu

EricNoah said:
			
		

> My goal is to stick with 3e and yet avoid becoming a bitter grognard.  Possible?  We'll find out...




Aw, Eric, I'm disappointed. From Mr. "Everything Newsworthy About This New-Fangled 3rd Edition," I'd expect more of a "I'll wait and see what it looks like" and less of a "Do not want!"


----------



## Xyxox

In the 4E - What we know thread that MerricB started, there will be no OGL for 4E.

Prepared for D&D to be forked.


----------



## Talath

EricNoah said:
			
		

> My goal is to stick with 3e and yet avoid becoming a bitter grognard.  Possible?  We'll find out...




Convert or be thrown into the perilous pit of peril!!!


----------



## Olaf the Stout

I got to have a quick sneak peek before they locked the forum.  Looks like they're sticking with their core 3 rulebooks.  I guess we'll find out tomorrow.

Really, the fact that 4 was so prominent on the main page did suggest pretty heavily that 4E was the big announcement.  Hindsight is a wonderful thing though.

I wonder who slipped up and opened access to the forum early?

Olaf the Stout


----------



## Nyarlathotep

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> If you noticed the top line, it was a WizO admin forum. No one was supposed to see it yet, when I'd assume they'll move it to the main forums.




I love that when the screenshot was posted there were 16 viewing. When I went in it was 160, and a lot of those names are recognizable.


----------



## Charwoman Gene

Xyxox said:
			
		

> In the 4E - What we know thread that MerricB started, there will be no OGL for 4E.
> 
> Prepared for D&D to be forked.




Wrong.

You don't even know if 4e is fundamentally incompatible.

D&D has forked dozens of times before, and survived, anyway.


----------



## EricNoah

Well, I have a TON of 3E stuff.  More than i could probably use in my whole lifetime. I was VERY turned off by how WotC handled Master Tools/eTools and have very little faith that their character building/management tools will mesh with the way I play.  I was VERY turned off by how WotC handled the Dragon and Dungeon magazine situation.  

I don't begrudge anyone a new edition.  Who knows, in a few years I might be ready.  But I just have scads and scads and scads of stuff I haven't used yet.  I just don't see it happening...


----------



## Friadoc

EricNoah said:
			
		

> My goal is to stick with 3e and yet avoid becoming a bitter grognard.  Possible?  We'll find out...




While I can see my group buying 4e stuff, we're still so engrained in our Arcana Evolved campaign (played with the same characters since Arcana Unearthed released) that I don't see us jumping systems unless Monte Cook suddenly releases AE/AU 4th Edition.

Personally, I think 3e is very viable branch/splinter that could easily go on a tangent development/production line, but only if enough companies step-up to help it happen.

Green Ronin is one such company, Paizo could easily be another, as is Malhvoc Press.


----------



## Ycore Rixle

Count me in as stunned. I thought they were going to wait longer. I hope that Chris Perkins and Chris Thomasson have had a strong hand in the design (surely the design must be almost over by now?). I keep thinking of how Peter Adkison was such a great guiding force for Jonathan, Monte, and Skip. Wow. I just hope they did 4E right. 

I was at the Trade Day seminar with Randy Buehler (sp?) today. Randy is in charge of Gleemax. I wonder if he knew that his board minions were about to let the cat prematurely out of the bag?


----------



## Xyxox

Charwoman Gene said:
			
		

> Wrong.
> 
> You don't even know if 4e is fundamentally incompatible.
> 
> D&D has forked dozens of times before, and survived, anyway.




Guranteed it'll fork.

One fork open, the other closed. IF the only way you can develop content for 4E is on the D&D Insider site and nowhere else, that's a closed system.

Ergo, the 3.5 SRD continues on one completely open fork and 4E continues on the other, closed fork.


----------



## Inferno!

There is a bright side for those of you that don't intend to switch.  Just think of all the cheap 3.5 books showing up at Half-Price Books and eBay.


----------



## Nyarlathotep

How can I get a pretty screenshot that show the whole page like Catsclaw did? I don't want a truncated one that just show what's available on my monitor, but the entire page. Any suggestions?


----------



## catsclaw227

Friadoc said:
			
		

> ...unless Monte Cook suddenly releases AE/AU 4th Edition.



That would be 256 shades of awesome.

I also welcome our new 4e overlords.

*Welcome 4verlords!*


----------



## Friadoc

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Well, I have a TON of 3E stuff.  More than i could probably use in my whole lifetime. I was VERY turned off by how WotC handled Master Tools/eTools and have very little faith that their character building/management tools will mesh with the way I play.  I was VERY turned off by how WotC handled the Dragon and Dungeon magazine situation.
> 
> I don't begrudge anyone a new edition.  Who knows, in a few years I might be ready.  But I just have scads and scads and scads of stuff I haven't used yet.  I just don't see it happening...




Definately a series of dropped balls there, in my not so humble opinion.

Heck, I remember the Dragon and Dungeon announcement day/weekend, as I was all over the boards, not always possessing a cool head, either.

Master Tools/eTools was a great idea that was mishandled. It is really hard, in my opinion, for non-tech companies to try and launch an ambitious tech idea, which Master Tools/eTools was.

But, the cool factor of getting that CD in the PHB still tickles my fancy.

Now, hopefully, they've learned from the past few years, worked out some kinks, are the coming product will show that, but I'm nervous about that, for sure.


----------



## Vocenoctum

Friadoc said:
			
		

> Green Ronin is one such company, Paizo could easily be another, as is Malhvoc Press.





Green Ronin created True20 to avoid 4e, and Malhavoc is gone, so you might want to trim your hopes down a bit.


----------



## Kaodi

I hope it is not too late for naughty names. I present to you, _4BAR_.


----------



## Hjorimir

EricNoah said:
			
		

> My goal is to stick with 3e and yet avoid becoming a bitter grognard.  Possible?  We'll find out...



Give yourself to the D4rk Side. It is the only way you can save your friends. Yes, your thoughts betray you. Your feelings for them are strong. Especially for... sister 3E. So, you have a twin sister a love for 3E. Your feelings have now betrayed her it, too. Obi-Wan Scott Rouse was wise to hide her it from me. Now his failure is complete. If you will not turn to the D4rk Side... then perhaps she it will...


----------



## Korgoth

Olaf the Stout said:
			
		

> I wonder who slipped up and opened access to the forum early?




Pretty hilarious, really.  I hope nobody gets in trouble over it.

"Sir, the cat's out of the bag."
"How far out?"
"300,000 kilometers per second.  The bag opened about a half hour ago."


----------



## catsclaw227

Nyarlathotep said:
			
		

> How can I get a pretty screenshot that show the whole page like Catsclaw did? I don't want a truncated one that just show what's available on my monitor, but the entire page. Any suggestions?



I use SnagIt.  http://www.techsmith.com/screen-capture.asp

Awesome screen capture tool.


----------



## Shawn_Kehoe

Xyxox said:
			
		

> It'll all be Web 2.0 based in Java is my guess, so even Linux users should be able to use it.




You would think so, eh?

When I took the Herald Test for the RPGA last fall, I had to use a friend's PC because the form would ONLY accept IE 6 ... which was never made for the Mac!

I've got Boot Camp now, but it's really a tool of last resort and Half-Life 2


----------



## Friadoc

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Green Ronin created True20 to avoid 4e, and Malhavoc is gone, so you might want to trim your hopes down a bit.




Malhavoc isn't gone, Monte's just switched his focus, for now, and I'm all for it. I can easily see him jump back into the trenches whenever something grabs his interest.

But, True20 is a definate development branch in the d20/OGL trunk and I could see more occur, or people jump on that one to move onto their own path.

Plus, like Eric said, there is tons of stuff out now that you could use for a longtime to come.


----------



## ashockney

I am totally thrilled. 

I was on the fence about making the drive from Columbus to Indianapolis.  In light of this, I will probably call off work on Friday to make the drive.  

I can't wait!  

Fire up the 4E forums on ENWorld, cause it is on like Donkey Kong!


----------



## Grymar

It's worth mentioning that one of the topics in the forum is OGL/D20, so I would guess that some form of the license is going to carry over into 4e.

That's good news, at least.


----------



## Charwoman Gene

Kaodi said:
			
		

> I hope it is not too late for naughty names. I present to you, _4BAR_.




Namecalling is like 3 hours ago... *sheesh*

4Bar is about as cool sounding as 4dventure...


----------



## Keldryn

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> I disagree. I think even a workable system can benefit from an occasional revamp and clean-up. There's a lot of baggage to 3E now, and while the _core_ D20 system is rock-solid, I think there are a lot of rules that can stand to be streamlined or redesigned.




I completely agree with you.  1st Edition was still a workable system when 2nd Edition came out, and there was way less material to rework and clean-up back then.

3.5 is still very playable, but there is a lot of stuff that I'd like to see streamlined, consolidated, and cleaned-up.


----------



## Xyxox

Grymar said:
			
		

> It's worth mentioning that one of the topics in the forum is OGL/D20, so I would guess that some form of the license is going to carry over into 4e.
> 
> That's good news, at least.




I remain cautiously optimistic.


----------



## takasi

Eric, hopefully the new programmers they hire will take a hint from what's already out there.

eTools was a fiasco, but that's because of its scope.

Take our group, for example.  We play twice a week at the table, and have other campaigns we play online.  We keep it simple, using MapTool.

If WotC had something very simple, like MapTool, we would might switch.

If WotC had something like MapTool and provided a central location to find players, we'd probably switch.

If WotC had MapTool, a centralized location to find players and a persistent database of characters, it would be a no brainer.

But we'll see.  

And despite having several campaigns (or perhaps because of it), we'll have a mix of 3.5 and 4E games.  War of the Burning Sky is going on month 6 and we only finished the second module, we're 3/4 through Savage Tide, 1/2 through Shackled City, going through Mysteries of the Moonsea and Expedition to the Demonweb Pits and I'm also running the old Dungeon FR Mere of Dead Men series (converting them on the fly).


----------



## EricNoah

Hjorimir said:
			
		

> Give yourself to the D4rk Side.




Oh my.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> Well, at least I'll be able to finish collecting 3.5 books, but now I'm going to end up a grognard bitterly refusing to play newfangled



I guess we should start a support group.  I'm still trying to find myself a replacement 3.5e game after I switched cities, and that's been hard enough.  Now I'm going to be one of those weirdo holdouts all coming up to people on the street and mumbling, "hey kid.  You want some Savage Tide?  You want some Mystic Theurge?  I got what you need, man."

The only consolation is that I haven't even finished running Age of Worms yet, and I've got Savage Tide and Pathfinder ahead of me (I loves me some Paizo flagship adventures).  That means I've got a few years of life left in my 3.5 books.

This is depressing.  It's not that I have anything against a new edition _per se_, but it's going to make it more difficult to find 3rd edition players, and it's already difficult.


----------



## Ycore Rixle

So now that the news has sunk in, I'm sitting here looking at the 4dventure ad on p.37 of the Gen Con program, and I'm thinking, "Man, doesn't the 4E announcement deserve at least a double-page spread?"


----------



## Talath

A big part of 3e for me was following Eric Noahs site and keeping up on the leaks and designer tidbits about 3rd edition: from confirmation on rules content and whatnot, to reasonings why rules were designed a certain way, to how playtesters shaped the rules as they are.

I look forward to feeling excited for a game again in the same way I was excited about 3e. Here is hoping 4e isn't lame.


----------



## Goblyn

EricNoah said:
			
		

> You know, we need to get started on a very vital task right away... those of us staying with 3rd edition must .. I say MUST ... start coming up with clever perjoratives for those traitors going on to 4th edition.  Something to rival "3etard" in its cleverness.
> 
> Get crackin'!



How about 4sshat?


----------



## Olaf the Stout

jgbrowning said:
			
		

> From my understanding, yes. Not open, but licensed products from 3rd party publishers. I am roughly 90% certain of this latter part. I am 100% certain of 4E announcement and have been for over a week, but didn't want to spoil anyones announcements.
> 
> But now that it's announced I can finally say something.... *if been bursting to say something*
> 
> joe b.




Wow, that must have been hard to keep to yourself Joe.  I imagine that there were several other people in gaming companies that have been in the very same position as you.  I'm surprised that the information hasn't been leaked before now.

Olaf the Stout


----------



## EricNoah

Talath said:
			
		

> A big part of 3e for me was following Eric Noahs site and keeping up on the leaks and designer tidbits about 3rd edition: from confirmation on rules content and whatnot, to reasonings why rules were designed a certain way, to how playtesters shaped the rules as they are.
> 
> I look forward to feeling excited for a game again in the same way I was excited about 3e. Here is hoping 4e isn't lame.




Who knows ... if they blow me away with the character generator, and if the editions are not so far apart and conversion of adventure material is relatively easy ... I certainly can't say "never."


----------



## Ishmayl

Korgoth said:
			
		

> Pretty hilarious, really.  I hope nobody gets in trouble over it.
> 
> "Sir, the cat's out of the bag."
> "How far out?"
> "300,000 kilometers per second.  The bag opened about a half hour ago."




I'm pretty sure the "cat out of the bag" was nothing more than a publicity stunt.  Seriously, now thousands (if not _ten of_ thousands) of people are going to know tomorrow to check out the site, who would otherwise not go to www.wizards.com/dnd unless their life depended on it (such as myself).


----------



## Talath

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Who knows ... if they blow me away with the character generator, and if the editions are not so far apart and conversion of adventure material is relatively easy ... I certainly can't say "never."




I'm just saying. If I pick up the 4e PHB and it doesn't blow my mind with it's hardcore rocktastic gamertude, then I won't pick it up.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol

takasi said:
			
		

> And despite having several campaigns (or perhaps because of it), we'll have a mix of 3.5 and 4E games.  War of the Burning Sky is going on month 6 and we only finished the second module, we're 3/4 through Savage Tide, 1/2 through Shackled City, going through Mysteries of the Moonsea and Expedition to the Demonweb Pits and I'm also running the old Dungeon FR Mere of Dead Men series (converting them on the fly).



Man, I seriously have to move somewhere with more population density.


----------



## Ycore Rixle

Talath said:
			
		

> A big part of 3e for me was following Eric Noahs site and keeping up on the leaks and designer tidbits about 3rd edition: from confirmation on rules content and whatnot, to reasonings why rules were designed a certain way, to how playtesters shaped the rules as they are.
> 
> I look forward to feeling excited for a game again in the same way I was excited about 3e. Here is hoping 4e isn't lame.




Me too. But the thing is, I didn't like 2nd edition. I like 3rd edition a lot. So I'm not sure if I can get that excited again. But I hope so. 

I share your hopes of non-lameness for 4e. In fact, I hope it's really great.

My biggest concern is whether it's more like the 1st-to-2nd jump or the 2nd-to-3rd jump. If it's the former, that's great, because I can just continue to use my 3rd edition resources easily with 4e rules. I mean, 1-to-2 was not that big a jump. But 2-to-3, well, after that, I couldn't easily use my 1st- or 2nd-edition resources. And if 4 is so different from 3 that I can't use my 3rd-edition resources, that's going to be tough to take unless 4e really kicks serious butt. Which it might. Here's hoping!


----------



## catsclaw227

Check out this RPG.Net post from 8-4-06...

http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=6120435&postcount=9


----------



## BiggusGeekus

Goblyn said:
			
		

> How about 4sshat?





That is full of win.


----------



## Sketchpad

You know ... thinking about this ... why was the forum open for others to see?  Was it a mistake?  Call me "In Denial", but I'm almost wondering if this stuff wasn't on purpose.  Could it be possible that 4dventure actually isn't 4e?  But rather a marketing plan to catch people's attention?  It's not the first time someone's said something big and then pulled the "Now that we have your attention" card.  
I do know that if this is indeed 4e, there's a pretty big chance that I won't be joining in.  I have way too much money invested in 3.5/d20Modern/etc to go forward with another money pit.  Be honest with ya, I'll probably just move over to True 20/M&M or Hero.  Count me as one that thinks it's a bad move ...


----------



## Hjorimir

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Who knows ... if they blow me away with the character generator, and if the editions are not so far apart and conversion of adventure material is relatively easy ... I certainly can't say "never."



...and thus your fall into the D4rk Side begins!

Muahahahaha...


----------



## ssampier

*4dv3ntur3 All your vowels are belong to us.*

I am having such complex emotions over this. I think I need a gamer-shrink. ~Sits in his apartment in the fetal position muttering, "There is no 4e. There is no 4e."~*

*I've noticed this thread has more Eric Noah sightings than normal; cool.


----------



## DaveMage

catsclaw227 said:
			
		

> Check out this RPG.Net post from 8-4-06...
> 
> http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=6120435&postcount=9




If the game changes so dramatically that I can't use my 3E adventures, then this is where I get off this train....


----------



## Baron Opal

MoogleEmpMog said:
			
		

> If the improvement brings it even close to on par with the best Green Ronin d20 systems and Star Wars Saga, it will be worthy of that appellation.  If it goes much further, it will be as significant an upgrade as from 2e to 3e.




Yeah, I really like the smoothness of SWSE. I can see some problems with a _direct_ translation, but I assume that the R&D folks have figured ways around it.


----------



## Dinkeldog

Grymar said:
			
		

> Quick, check the calendar.  Tell me it is March 31st!




*shrug*  Okay, if you want.  It's March 31st.


----------



## takasi

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> Man, I seriously have to move somewhere with more population density.




Check out my sig for a link to our Meetup.com site.  You can find others to game with from there.

But with an online tabletop like MapTool, you really don't need to move anywhere.  The problem is finding other gamers, and if WotC can promote D&D like an MMO, but as a tabletop game like MapTool, I think they would be doing a good thing.

I must say, despite their technical difficulties sometimes, for years WotC has provided more online material for their games than any other game company, period.  If they put that much dedication to helping gamers find each other I'm all for that.


----------



## Abisashi

Sketchpad said:
			
		

> You know ... thinking about this ... why was the forum open for others to see?  Was it a mistake?  Call me "In Denial", but I'm almost wondering if this stuff wasn't on purpose.  Could it be possible that 4dventure actually isn't 4e?  But rather a marketing plan to catch people's attention?  It's not the first time someone's said something big and then pulled the "Now that we have your attention" card.
> I do know that if this is indeed 4e, there's a pretty big chance that I won't be joining in.  I have way too much money invested in 3.5/d20Modern/etc to go forward with another money pit.  Be honest with ya, I'll probably just move over to True 20/M&M or Hero.  Count me as one that thinks it's a bad move ...




According to Mark Rosewater (head of Magic design), posting rumors, even fake ones, will get you fired from Wizards. I'd say this qualifies. It would be too big of a hit to their trustworthiness. (sp?)


----------



## catsclaw227

I really hope my Gamemaster modules and Pathfinder campaign will be compatible.  I am already starting AoW (only 1 game session into Whispering Cairn), and I want to be able to use these adventures with the new system.


----------



## Hjorimir

Damnit! How am I supposed to work on my campaign (game tomorrow night) while I'm crusing message boards for information that I already know won't be there?


----------



## WayneLigon

I guess it cooouuuld be about something to do with the Digital Initiative, but the '4' thing seems just too big to be a fake-out.


----------



## bowbe

To my fellow 3.5_4lyfe gamerz ... Welcome to Grognard status . Time to start growing your beards! Time to start sentences with "Well Back in 3.5 edition we..."

Now everyone knows what the oD&D, 2ed, 3.0 ed folks felt like. 

Case

An Implausible P.S.

Maybe the core books will come in a textspeak version that you can download to your mobile phone, provided your phone provider is the "official mobile phone provider of 4ed"

4rmr, HPtz, 

Monsters are not killed they 0wnd.

Kobolds and goblins will be referred to as "campers" for their sedintary ambush tactics.

Condition rules will be replaced with smileys and so on.


----------



## catsclaw227

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> I guess it cooouuuld be about something to do with the Digital Initiative, but the '4' thing seems just too big to be a fake-out.



I think you might need a little thread catch-up.


----------



## Hjorimir

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> I guess it cooouuuld be about something to do with the Digital Initiative, but the '4' thing seems just too big to be a fake-out.



We already know it is 4E being announced, WL. Somebody got into the Gleemax forum before they locked it and the moderators created a slew of 4E threads and posted that it was announced. 

I imangine those threads will be unlocked tomorrow at the appropriate time...which is less than 19 hours from now according to the timer.


----------



## EricNoah

ssampier said:
			
		

> *I've noticed this thread has more Eric Noah sightings than normal; cool.




I came for the "Pazio Druggie Doll" thread.  I stayed for the "4E Revelation" thread.


----------



## KingCrab

Kanegrundar said:
			
		

> I hope it's 4E as well.  If for nothing else than to get all the "the %)(#*%)%$(# sky is falling threads out of the way.




Nah.  The 5ed "sky is falling" threads will just have to start instead.


----------



## DaveMage

EricNoah said:
			
		

> I came for the "Pazio Druggie Doll" thread.  I stayed for the "4E Revelation" thread.





It's all pretty much the same....


----------



## Friadoc

EricNoah said:
			
		

> I came for the "Pazio Druggie Doll" thread.  I stayed for the "4E Revelation" thread.




Yeap, but was it through an RSS reader link?

I was checking my webcomics, which is on the same iGoogle page as my En World RSS feed, with the "Open Letter to Paizo" catching my attention.

I swear, it's so weird how much a part of our lives certain things have become, isn't it?

EDIT P.S.

A thread that just got closed. *grins*


----------



## catsclaw227

Erik Mona just posted in the Exp to Ruins of Greyhawk thread, maybe he can come by and fill us in on Paizo's play.


----------



## Baron Opal

jgbrowning said:
			
		

> From my understanding, yes. Not open, but licensed products from 3rd party publishers. I am roughly 90% certain of this latter part. I am 100% certain of 4E announcement and have been for over a week, but didn't want to spoil anyones announcements.
> 
> But now that it's announced I can finally say something.... *if been bursting to say something*
> 
> joe b.




Wow. Third party confirmation. A small piece of me was kinda wondering if it was a prank or deliberate misinformation. I guess the fourth age is upon us...


----------



## Vocenoctum

EricNoah said:
			
		

> I came for the "Pazio Druggie Doll" thread.  I stayed for the "4E Revelation" thread.




And, you just know as soon as you eventually have to give up and go to bed, when you return in the morning the thread will be impossible to navigate.

We're already up to 9 pages, with NO information, imagine once things break!


----------



## catsclaw227

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> We're already up to 9 pages, with NO information, imagine once things break!



I wouldn't say there is NO information, with the screencaps, the confirmation from joe browning, etc.  Its just not confirmed OFFICIAL from the WOTC team.


----------



## Nyarlathotep

catsclaw227 said:
			
		

> Check out this RPG.Net post from 8-4-06...
> 
> http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=6120435&postcount=9




It kind of sounds like a variation of how earthdawn did advancement... which was a feature I really liked.


----------



## rhm001

With this news, I have a terrible sense of 4boding...

Ah well, at least 4warned is 4armed...

"I sense... a great disturbance in the 4ce, as if millions of voices cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced…"

There, at least I got that out of my system...


----------



## Irda Ranger

catsclaw227 said:
			
		

> Check out this RPG.Net post from 8-4-06...
> 
> http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=6120435&postcount=9



Wow. Really, really hope that's wrong. I didn't buy "Buy the Numbers" for a reason.

Although I am cautiously optimistic, I am not eu4ic.

Btw, I vote for "4rons", since it uses the phonetic "4".  Whether "4sshat" will be meaningful two months from now depends on whether they continue to use "4dventure", which I really hope they don't, since that's stupid.

But whatever. What I really need now is more in4mation. 

By the way, I'm tradmarking the term: "Ha ha! You've been 4k'd!"


----------



## Dinkeldog

EricNoah said:
			
		

> I came for the "Pazio Druggie Doll" thread.  I stayed for the "4E Revelation" thread.




So far, I don't think we need to close this thread, though.   So far...


----------



## Vocenoctum

catsclaw227 said:
			
		

> I wouldn't say there is NO information, with the screencaps, the confirmation from joe browning, etc.  Its just not confirmed OFFICIAL from the WOTC team.




Sorry, I didn't mean "no confirmation" I meant "no information". We've got nothing really to go on, other than there will BE a 4e. We don't even know WHEN...

And yes, "nothing" is hyperbole, but still.


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> *sigh*
> 
> Well, if it's official, then that's the worst news I've heard in a long time.
> 
> Well, at least I'll be able to finish collecting 3.5 books, but now I'm going to end up a grognard bitterly refusing to play newfangled
> 
> I find myself not only disinterested in 4e, but outright hostile to the concept.  The more I think of it, the less I think we need a new core edition, and the more I see myself finding my "retro" niche as a 3.5 guy.
> 
> When 3e was announced, I was cautiously optimistic since I knew 2e was way behind the times.  When 3.5 was announced, I knew 3e was good but had stuff that needed fixing.  Now, things work but I have the deep suspicion that this is nothing but a cash grab.
> 
> A new edition of D&D is coming out. . .just as Dragon and Dungon magazines die and their names are plundered for some pay-access website.  A new edition is announced at Gen Con just a few months after WotC said it would never be announced at Gen Con and would only be announced at Winter Fantasy.
> 
> WotC is going to have to utterly knock my socks off with this 4e for me to even do so much as buy a PHB.




You and me both, buddy.

This has got me really pissed off.  I want to rant, scream, and vent.  Not so much about the edition change ... that was eventual ... but because we've been lied to about it.  You lying WOTC bastards ... 'we're not working on it, it's several years off' my hairy dwarven arse!  Just tell me this: why?  Why do we need a 4E now?  And frankly, if you give me any other answer than "It's all about money; sales were beginning to slump so we needed to kick out another edition to refresh our sales of core books and reprint everything from the beginning again to boost our profits" I'm going to call you all liars, turn my back, and never give you another dime.

Where's Morrus to confirm/deny this stuff?  And I want the ex-WOTC'ers to give there assessment of the why now (OK, why a year from now, but why now) decision.

I need an appropriate smilie to convey my anger.


----------



## catsclaw227

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> Where's Morrus to confirm/deny this stuff?  And I want the ex-WOTC'ers to give there assessment of the why now (OK, why a year from now, but why now) decision.



I am pretty sure that there is no denial coming, and confirmation is not necessary.

Though I WOULD like to get some kind of rough outline of what 4e will look like, and how easy it will be for us to port our vast 3.x library of stuff over.  I could care less about splat books.... I want to easily and quickly port my adventures.


----------



## Irda Ranger

rhm001 said:
			
		

> "I sense... a great disturbance in the 4ce, as if millions of voices cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced…"



 
Wow.  A literal "lol." Thank you.

Man. Just remembering how i found Eric's site less than a week after the GenCon where they announced 3e. 

So this is what it feels like to be a grognard.  I just wrote (and deleted) a whole paragraphs of complaints and grumbles - and 4e's not even announced yet! It's a sickness.


----------



## EricNoah

Irda Ranger said:
			
		

> So this is what it feels like to be a grognard.




Yep, there's gonna be a whole bunch of us in this very uncomfortable position.  

At least I hope it's a whole bunch of us!


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone

Well, I'm expecting Morrus has the meat of the details, is what I meant.  Though he's probably been sworn to secrecy.


----------



## AdmundfortGeographer

Grymar said:
			
		

> It's worth mentioning that one of the topics in the forum is OGL/D20, so I would guess that some form of the license is going to carry over into 4e.



That seems to be a ray of hope.


----------



## Ruin Explorer

Apparently I'm not a grognard, because I'm pretty excited about 4E. Then again, I'm not nearly so invested in 3E as a lot of people. Sometimes bitterness is helpful!


----------



## Ishmayl

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Yep, there's gonna be a whole bunch of us in this very uncomfortable position.




Like in the back of a Volkswagen?


----------



## Irda Ranger

catsclaw227 said:
			
		

> Though I WOULD like to get some kind of rough outline of what 4e will look like, and how easy it will be for us to port our vast 3.x library of stuff over.  I could care less about splat books.... I want to easily and quickly port my adventures.



Yes.  There's two ways make it easy to port adventures:

1. Make 4e just "3.5, but better"
2. Make 4e new and different, but drop dead simple to generate "stuff" for.

If 4e falls into the former - well, I hope it doesn't. If they're going to do a new edition, they should do a new frickin' edition.  I wouldn't buy a D&D 3.5.9 

I hope we can port adventures because of the latter, because that would mean it's also drop dead simple to make new adventures for. And run them off the cuff.


----------



## EricNoah

Wow, Ruin Explorer - there's a blast from the past!


----------



## catsclaw227

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> Well, I'm expecting Morrus has the meat of the details, is what I meant.  Though he's probably been sworn to secrecy.



You are probably right about this. Tomorrow will be interesting.  I just hope that I am able to follow one of the key threads while I am working.  I imagine it will grow to 10 pages in 2 hours.  That's a lot to read.


----------



## Ruin Explorer

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Wow, Ruin Explorer - there's a blast from the past!




It's amazing the fogies a new edition release will drag up - I probably wouldn't even have heard about this if I hadn't recently gotten back into d20 stuff via the excellent Iron Heroes though. It's good to see at least some of the old faces are still around


----------



## Irda Ranger

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> Well, I'm expecting Morrus has the meat of the details, is what I meant.  Though he's probably been sworn to secrecy.



Not if they're smart.

I bet Morrus' one-on-one meeting with WotC is so he can grill them with Q&A to make sure he gets it right.  The last thing WotC needs is for Morrus to post an innocent misunderstanding on the front page of EN World, and set off a conflagration. EN World is big enough that a bad enough mistake like that could poison many wells or generate lasting misconceptions of the game.  They can't afford that.


----------



## EricNoah

Maybe they'll agree to feed EN World exclusive bits if he plays by certain rules.


----------



## Mouseferatu

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Maybe they'll agree to feed EN World exclusive bits if he plays by certain rules.




You know, that's actually an interesting idea. EN World is perhaps the largest single community of RPGers in existence. While it's true that any opinion generated online is subject to various distortions, if one knows how to read them, they can also be fairly informative. EN World wouldn't be a bad place for WotC to float a few particular edition-specific rules/changes and see if they stick.

(They wouldn't want to rely _solely_ on EN World, or even predominantly, but as one resource of feedback among many, it could prove quite valuable.)


----------



## AdmundfortGeographer

I just paused and I've suddenly looked at all of my purchase over the past 3 years. They are stacked on the floor around me and also in some boxes. Wow. This non-announcement in some ways feels like a kick in the nuts, but only because it is a non-announcement so far. We have no details on how compatible the old stuff will be.

But the anticipation wondering how compatible all of my purchases will be makes me wonder. I'm not exactly in a position where everything I own could be reusable with a little work. I play nearly exclusively in Living Greyhawk. If my books can't be used in LG they are nothing.


----------



## megamania

No Dragon

No Dungeon

No 3e......?!?


sigh...........


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone

And what's up with Scott Rouse asking about suggestions for future Ideas (the brand manager of fluff thread)? What kind of misdirection was that?


----------



## EricNoah

They may also be trying to build or repair some bridges as WotC hasn't had a particularly close relationship with EN World and Russ except recently.


----------



## Talath

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> And what's up with Scott Rouse asking about suggestions for future Ideas (the brand manager of fluff thread)? What kind of misdirection was that?




Oh great!!! Now I will have to wait even longer for my book of fey!!! This just burns my buns!!!!


----------



## Mouseferatu

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> And what's up with Scott Rouse asking about suggestions for future Ideas (the brand manager of fluff thread)? What kind of misdirection was that?




Why assume it was misdirection at all?

If 4E is announced at GenCon, then we can assume that either

A) The main system has just been finished, or

B) The main system is still being worked on, but is almost finished.

In either case, there's a whole open field ahead of us in terms of release schedules. It's entirely possible that WotC is looking for customer feedback on what sort of books we want after the initial core. And by asking for flavor-specific ideas, he makes it that much more likely that the ideas that were offered will be compatible with the new edition.


----------



## Ruavel

of course, this may all be just one of the best exercises in viral marketing the world has ever seen...


----------



## Glyfair

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> 'we're not working on it, it's several years off' my hairy dwarven arse! .



To be fair, I never saw "it's several years off" quoted from WotC staff.  What I saw was "it won't be soon" (earlier this year).  Soon is so vague as to almost be meaningless.


----------



## thundershot

Hopefully the fine folks at Paizo knew this was coming, and with any luck, they get to be the publisher of 4E adventures via Pathfinder.



Chris


----------



## catsclaw227

thundershot said:
			
		

> Hopefully the fine folks at Paizo knew this was coming, and with any luck, they get to be the publisher of 4E adventures via Pathfinder.



I get the sense from a vague comment by Erik Mona in another thread that they did know something and with some time, they can make an announcement as well.

Then again, I could be wrong....


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> It's entirely possible that WotC is looking for customer feedback on what sort of books we want after the initial core. And by asking for flavor-specific ideas, he makes it that much more likely that the ideas that were offered will be compatible with the new edition.





Except that asked the way he did, 99% of the responses were for books needed from the current state of 3.5 ... there's a lot of basic ground to cover if you're rebooting an edition.  I'd give almost completely different responses if asked "what fluff/crunch is needed for books released after the core rulebooks."

A Greyhawk Campaign Setting hardcover would be the only duplicate entry on both my lists.


----------



## AdmundfortGeographer

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Why assume it was misdirection at all?



I'm sort of in agreement. Even if it is an announcement, the final release will likely be a full year out, (maybe more?).

Plus, for all we know 4e may be transparently compatible with 3e products. In that case there won't be a hard rush to redo everything already out there.


----------



## Festivus

catsclaw227 said:
			
		

> I really hope my Gamemaster modules and Pathfinder campaign will be compatible.  I am already starting AoW (only 1 game session into Whispering Cairn), and I want to be able to use these adventures with the new system.




You don't *have* to upgrade.  Just play your Gamemastery, Age of Worms, Patherfinder, Etc in 3.5.  

I don't plan on buying much more than the PHB for a start at 4E.  Till there is a compelling reason to switch, it will be like Windows ME was to me, a skipper.


----------



## Lidgar

Why do I expect Steve Jobs to appear on stage wearing a black turtle neck to announce 4e and touting it as the coolest thing ever to grace your battle mat? I mean, come on, a count down page? "And just check out these webpages! You will never need to use a messy No. 2 pencil ever again!" Yeesh.


----------



## LoPaC

Theres way too many posts for me to go back and re-read, so this may be already stated:

Has anyone noticed that all the dice have the number 4 facing up?


----------



## Glyfair

catsclaw227 said:
			
		

> I get the sense from a vague comment by Erik Mona in another thread that they did know something and with some time, they can make an announcement as well.
> 
> Then again, I could be wrong....



I know another former WotC employee who said he knew what the announcement was going to be about, so I assume that the word went around.  Of course, the "word" might have been misdirection.

Looking at the times of the various posts, I think I scooped everyone by about 1-2 minutes.  Woo Hoo


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> Plus, for all we know 4e may be transparently compatible with 3e products. In that case there won't be a hard rush to redo everything already out there.




I'd like to think that ... I'd actually consider buying a product if it was equivalent to the shift from 3.0 to 3.5 (essentially backwards compatible and easily convertible).  But if that were the case, why call it 4E?  Why not just announce another revision of 3.X?


----------



## Jonathan Drain

Here's what I've got so far on my D&D blog:

*Wizards to Announce 4th Edition Tomorrow*
"Discussion already abounds but I’m going to stick my neck out here and announce that Wizards is announcing Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition at Gencon 2008 on Thursday, 16th August..."
http://d20.jonnydigital.com/2007/08/wizards-to-announce-4th-edition-tomorrow

*4th Edition: Early Indications*
The 4th Edition forum at Wizards is already up, but evidently we weren’t meant to find it until the big announcement tomorrow at Gencon. I still have the forum open in my browser, so here’s what I can tell you...
http://d20.jonnydigital.com/2007/08/4th-edition-early-indications

Finally, here's a link to vote up the story on digg.


----------



## Korgoth

LoPaC said:
			
		

> Theres way too many posts for me to go back and re-read, so this may be already stated:
> 
> Has anyone noticed that all the dice have the number 4 facing up?




Umm... you might want to go ahead and skim.


----------



## KingCrab

I'm so overwhelmingly depressed.  The only up side for me?  At least I didn't finish actually learning and understanding all the 3.5 rules yet   .


----------



## AdmundfortGeographer

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> But if that were the case, why call it 4E?  Why not just announce another revision of 3.X?



Marketing. Publicity. Headlines. Impact to drive sales.


----------



## Olaf the Stout

Ishmayl said:
			
		

> Like in the back of a Volkswagen?




No!!!!    

Olaf the Stout


----------



## Erik Mona

catsclaw227 said:
			
		

> I get the sense from a vague comment by Erik Mona in another thread that they did know something and with some time, they can make an announcement as well.
> 
> Then again, I could be wrong....




We're pretty much as in the dark as everyone. I have reason to believe I'll know more soon, but it's way, way, WAY to early to say what our plans are, because we haven't made them yet.

Pathfinder and the GameMastery Modules are 3.5 until 4.0 comes out. After that it'll be an issue of the terms of the OGL and a variety of other factors, including what our readers tell us they want us to do.

--Erik


----------



## Talath

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> We're pretty much as in the dark as everyone. I have reason to believe I'll know more soon, but it's way, way, WAY to early to say what our plans are, because we haven't made them yet.
> 
> Pathfinder and the GameMastery Modules are 3.5 until 4.0 comes out. After that it'll be an issue of the terms of the OGL and a variety of other factors, including what our readers tell us they want us to do.
> 
> --Erik




You're good people.


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone

Glyfair said:
			
		

> To be fair, I never saw "it's several years off" quoted from WotC staff.  What I saw was "it won't be soon" (earlier this year).  Soon is so vague as to almost be meaningless.




From D&D EXP, FEB 2007:



> "I'm surprised it took this long for someone to ask that. It's going to come at some point. It's a long ways away. You'll get an announcement when that happens, but it's a long ways away. We have a lot of good stuff coming out through 2008."




Which implies no earlier than 2009, or later.


----------



## Dire Bare

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> Marketing. Publicity. Headlines. Impact to drive sales.




And because calling it "D&D 3.75" is just lame.


----------



## AdmundfortGeographer

Dire Bare said:
			
		

> And because calling it "D&D 3.75" is just lame.



Well . . . there is that.


----------



## WayneLigon

Hjorimir said:
			
		

> We already know it is 4E being announced, WL. Somebody got into the Gleemax forum before they locked it and the moderators created a slew of 4E threads and posted that it was announced.




I saw those, and it.. just struck me as it _could _ be taken either way. Like it could be a 4E announcement OR it could be an attempt to create a central place for 4E suggestions and the like. Some of the initial posts in there made me think of it like that, though I'd assume that if 4E were announced that all the initial playtesting would be over by now and most suggestions would be moot; I think a year from the launch, they'd be ready for more intensive second- or third-phase playtesting.

But yeah, my money is on a 4E announcement of some type.


----------



## KingCrab

I just hope they really did a lot of marketing research before adopting this strategy.


----------



## johnnype

Buying a 3.5 book and buying a 4.0 book should cost the same. I knew there was a reason I stopped buying crunch books over a year ago.

And a tip of the hat to Monte Cook who called this a long time ago.


----------



## MoogleEmpMog

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> You know, that's actually an interesting idea. EN World is perhaps the largest single community of RPGers in existence.




I was going to say rpg.net was larger, but now that I look I notice they have about twice as many POSTS, they actually have fewer MEMBERS.  Interesting.


----------



## Xyxox

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Sorry, I didn't mean "no confirmation" I meant "no information". We've got nothing really to go on, other than there will BE a 4e. We don't even know WHEN...
> 
> And yes, "nothing" is hyperbole, but still.




Hell, for all we know the books are already printed and ready to go.


----------



## Baron Opal

megamania said:
			
		

> No Dragon
> 
> No Dungeon
> 
> No 3e......?!?
> 
> 
> sigh...........




Don't worry, you'll _love_ it. Just go to sleep with this book next to your bed, and when you wake up, you'll be just the same.


----------



## Ruin Explorer

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> Which implies no earlier than 2009, or later.




Yeah, keep living the dream. No later than 2008, more like it.


----------



## Xyxox

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> I just paused and I've suddenly looked at all of my purchase over the past 3 years. They are stacked on the floor around me and also in some boxes. Wow. This non-announcement in some ways feels like a kick in the nuts, but only because it is a non-announcement so far. We have no details on how compatible the old stuff will be.
> 
> But the anticipation wondering how compatible all of my purchases will be makes me wonder. I'm not exactly in a position where everything I own could be reusable with a little work. I play nearly exclusively in Living Greyhawk. If my books can't be used in LG they are nothing.




Yep, you're now a grognard.

I've got boxes upon boxes of 2E, 1E, and OD&D stuff.

I've been down this road a few times. It gets easier, but you look at the dollars you put into it all and wonder how you can let the old go in favor of the new.

I purchased one copy of everything TSR put out for 2E (sometimes more than one copy, too).

I learned from that and made my 3E purchases much more prudent. The 3.5 purchases were even more prudent than that.

With 4E, it'll probably be the core and nothing more.


----------



## Mortellan

No more Dragon, no more Dungeon, I got my last GH published book. Now 4e announced. I've never felt so liberated!


----------



## Xyxox

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> We're pretty much as in the dark as everyone. I have reason to believe I'll know more soon, but it's way, way, WAY to early to say what our plans are, because we haven't made them yet.
> 
> Pathfinder and the GameMastery Modules are 3.5 until 4.0 comes out. After that it'll be an issue of the terms of the OGL and a variety of other factors, including what our readers tell us they want us to do.
> 
> --Erik




IF the licensing terms are too odious, is it possible you'll be supporting the OGL SRD material as a fork of D&D?


----------



## Hjorimir

Ruin Explorer said:
			
		

> Yeah, keep living the dream. No later than 2008, more like it.



Yeah, WotC/Hasbro probably just finished their Q2 update of the 2007 Business Plan and saw some numbers that they didn't like then proceeded to move up 4E.

Bottom line is that business plans change all the time. You have to stay agile and adjust accordingly.


----------



## Maggan

jgbrowning said:
			
		

> From my understanding, yes. Not open, but licensed products from 3rd party publishers. I am roughly 90% certain of this latter part. I am 100% certain of 4E announcement and have been for over a week, but didn't want to spoil anyones announcements.
> 
> But now that it's announced I can finally say something.... *if been bursting to say something*
> 
> joe b.




Well, in light of my made up scoop about such a license being announced at GenCon ... I'm looking into getting into speculating about the D&D business hard core after this!   

/M


----------



## Korgoth

Hjorimir said:
			
		

> Yeah, WotC/Hasbro probably just finished their Q2 update of the 2007 Business Plan and saw some numbers that they didn't like then proceeded to move up 4E.
> 
> Bottom line is that business plans change all the time. You have to stay agile and adjust accordingly.




That's certainly possible.


----------



## Moon-Lancer

Inferno! said:
			
		

> There is a bright side for those of you that don't intend to switch.  Just think of all the cheap 3.5 books showing up at Half-Price Books and eBay.




when do you think the really cheap 3.5 books will be available? right when 4 comes out? right before? or right after? I have been itching to get 9swords.


----------



## AdmundfortGeographer

Xyxox said:
			
		

> Yep, you're now a grognard.



Oh I've been a grognard a long time. I have about 24 boxes of old OD&D, 1st ed, 2nd ed books. Boxes of Greyhawk, Spelljammer, Dark Sun, Birthright, Al Qadim, Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Mystara (every edition, every region), Forgotten Realms, I could go on and on. All those boxes are in storage, these boxes on my floor are new buys.

I was just noticing how much have new . . . all over again. I was thinking deep down "but I just bought this stuff! I haven't had much time to use it yet!"


----------



## Vague Jayhawk

I don't know what to think.  

I'm kind of excited to see the new product...and yet thinking "ahhh-man, another set of rules to learn".


----------



## Moggthegob

I ma welcoming my selfto grognard status barring dnd 4e being absoltulely incredible im gonna sit dnd out from here on in. Hell evne wahammeri s less expensive that switching editions every 3 years. SO back to warhammer and historical minis for me. as wel las continuing 3.5 games i have going now.


----------



## Dirigible

As others have noted, I think this'll have something to do with the re-edition of the 1e-like D&D that WotC is supposed to be bringing out. $D, time, time travel, back to _auld schoole_...

And they deliberately disguised it as 4e because they knew it'd give the public conniptions


----------



## frankthedm

Vague Jayhawk said:
			
		

> I don't know what to think.
> 
> I'm kind of excited to see the new product...and yet thinking "ahhh-man, another set of rules to learn".



I doubt they will be hard to learn. Heck, I won't be surprised if there is a base class caster with no prep work / no hard choices _at all_ that makes the warlock look _complex_.


----------



## Xyxox

Moggthegob said:
			
		

> I ma welcoming my selfto grognard status barring dnd 4e being absoltulely incredible im gonna sit dnd out from here on in. Hell evne wahammeri s less expensive that switching editions every 3 years. SO back to warhammer and historical minis for me. as wel las continuing 3.5 games i have going now.




At least with Warhammer, you're minis are still usable. Worst case scenario is costs change and you might have to break up a unit into smaller units or something.


----------



## Cadfan

I really like the idea of a rules revision.  The creation of game rules for a roleplaying game like this really need redone every so often based on experience gained from actual players rather than playtesters.

That being said, I really like all the weird character types and feats out there.  A rules revision which eliminates those makes the game a lot less fun for me.  I don't feel like waiting ages for new versions of Tome of Battle, the Scout, the Hexblade, etc, etc, etc.  Even though I'd like revised versions of these things, I won't like the period between the release of 4E and the release of the feats and classes needed to create certain character concepts.

While there are things that can be done better, and I welcome the chance to see that happen, part of the fun for me is coming up with an off the wall character type, then optimizing it as much as possible.  That won't be as enjoyable with fewer choices.


----------



## Agamon

LOL, I have enough 3.5 stuff to last me to 5E.  Not to mention M&M and WFRP.  This isn't really a big announcement to me.  

I was ready to drop D&D and not look back right when 3E was announced, which made me excited with all the changes I wanted to see to the game.  WotC made too good of a game this time around, ironically.

I know Morrus was looking forward to this news to get some meaty chunks on the front page like Eric used to be able to do.  So I'm happy for him, anyway.


----------



## Rangoric

Xyxox said:
			
		

> At least with Warhammer, you're minis are still usable. Worst case scenario is costs change and you might have to break up a unit into smaller units or something.




If you say so, The Wood Elf Army I had when they where first published is useless under the new rules.

If you ran a Craftworld Eldar Army in 40k it got smushed rather well too.  Not completely like my Wood Elf Army, but sometimes an army concept you have just gets nukedm which it did.  I can still "Play" it but it doesn't play out at all like I had it worked out to.

Costs changing is the least of the issues, army compositions rules have changed from edition to edition.


----------



## frankthedm

Xyxox said:
			
		

> At least with Warhammer, you're minis are still usable. Worst case scenario is costs change and you might have to break up a unit into smaller units or something.



Oh, you'd be surprised. Rules changes and whatnot can really much with one's model selections.

Edit: The above post points it out nicely.


----------



## Jonathan Drain

I wouldn't compare Warhammer to D&D when it comes to cost. A box of unpainted miniatures costs the same as or more than a D&D rulebook, but with D&D it's feasible for a group of five players to purchase one book between them every few weeks. You don't get the same economy with Warhammer.

Granted, Warhammer gives you a much more tangible product that won't become useless when a new rules edition is released.


----------



## Agamon

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> You and me both, buddy.
> 
> This has got me really pissed off.  I want to rant, scream, and vent.  Not so much about the edition change ... that was eventual ... but because we've been lied to about it.  You lying WOTC bastards ... 'we're not working on it, it's several years off' my hairy dwarven arse!  Just tell me this: why?  Why do we need a 4E now?  And frankly, if you give me any other answer than "It's all about money; sales were beginning to slump so we needed to kick out another edition to refresh our sales of core books and reprint everything from the beginning again to boost our profits" I'm going to call you all liars, turn my back, and never give you another dime.
> 
> Where's Morrus to confirm/deny this stuff?  And I want the ex-WOTC'ers to give there assessment of the why now (OK, why a year from now, but why now) decision.
> 
> I need an appropriate smilie to convey my anger.




I refuse to be the angry grognard, myself.  I think apathy will work a lot better for me.  And I won't be a hypocrite; I can't stand posters that have to announce every other post that they dislike 3/3.5E because an older edition is so much superior.  Well, diaglo notwithstanding, at least he does it in a way that makes me grin.

I will frequent these threads though, just in the hopes that Henry is down with the new rules.  We need a return of "C'mon August!"  Ah, memories...


----------



## Ruin Explorer

Jonathan Drain said:
			
		

> Granted, Warhammer gives you a much more tangible product that won't become useless when a new rules edition is released.




Oh no?

3rd Edition Warhammer invalidated over 50% of the points value of my Eldar army, by removing all rules for lasgun Guardians, Harlequins, and a few other units covered in 2E. Afaik they've still not put rules for any of those back in.

So it's not always that simple, sadly.


----------



## mhacdebhandia

Ruin Explorer said:
			
		

> Yeah, keep living the dream. No later than 2008, more like it.



Yes. "(3.5) products coming out through 2008" means nothing more than "we have some (3.5) products coming out *in* 2008". Nothing about such a statement precludes Fourth Edition products from coming out *after* them.


----------



## BadMojo

Agamon said:
			
		

> I refuse to be the angry grognard, myself.  I think apathy will work a lot better for me.




Yeah, my general mood on this is apathy with a touch of disappointment regarding the apparent lack of OGL.

I'm not angry about 4E coming, but it'll have to be pretty impressive to get me on board.  I haven't really liked much of the new rules stuff lately (Magic of Incarnum, Book of Nine Swords), so I might end up sitting 4E out, the same way I did with a large portion of 2nd ed.  Maybe 4E will move in a completely new direction.

I'm more curious to see if this whole announcement is handled as smoothly as the Dungeon/Dragon thing.


----------



## six_v2

*bang.*

Well. 

I 'just' got back into buying 3.5 stuff, and was thinking 'hell i probaly will see about 7 more years of support for this product from the people who made it, just like Ad&D'

don't i feel like a dirty 3etard who just had 4skin in his class

that hurts the pride


----------



## Moon-Lancer

if 4e was ogl, i would say i cant wait. I really want to give d&d 4e a fair chance, but the possibility their wont be an ogl puts me off.


----------



## Piestrio

http://theminiaturespage.com/news/519193


The first substantive thing I've heard.

And TMP is usually very good about their news.

EDIT: sorry, had two URLs squished in there. Works now.


----------



## Moon-Lancer

the link is broken for me

*edit*

is this the link?

http://theminiaturespage.com/news/519193


----------



## Charwoman Gene

Hear is the text... Sounds legit.



> August 16, 2007 (Renton, WA) – Whether you storm a mad wizard's tower every week or haven't delved into a dungeon since you had a mullet and a mean pair of parachute pants, one thing is certain - millions of D&D players worldwide have anticipated the coming of 4th Edition for many years. Today, Wizards of the Coast confirms that the new edition will launch in May 2008 with the release of the D&D Player's Handbook. A pop culture icon, Dungeons & Dragons is the #1 tabletop roleplaying game in the world, and is revered by legions of gamers of all ages.
> 
> The 4th Edition Dungeons & Dragons game includes elements familiar to current D&D players, including illustrated rulebooks and pre-painted plastic miniatures. Also releasing next year will be new web-based tools and online community forums through the brand-new Dungeons & Dragons Insider (D&D Insider) digital offering. D&D Insider lowers the barriers of entry for new players while simultaneously offering the depth of play that appeals to veteran players.
> 
> The 4th Edition rules emphasize faster game play, offer exciting new character options, and reduce the amount of "prep time" needed to run the game. D&D Insider includes a character creator that lets players design and equip their D&D characters, dungeon- and adventure-building tools for Dungeon Masters, online magazine content, and a digital game table that lets you play 24/7 on the internet — the perfect option for anyone who can't find time to get together.
> 
> "We've been gathering player feedback for eight years," said Bill Slavicsek, R&D Director of Roleplaying and Miniatures Games at Wizards of the Coast. "Fourth Edition streamlines parts of the D&D game that are too complex, while enhancing the overall play experience. At its heart, it's still a tabletop game experience. However, D&D Insider makes it easier for players to create characters, run their games, and interact with the rest of the D&D community."
> 
> Wizards of the Coast will release two 4th Edition preview books in December and January — Wizards Presents: Classes and Races and Wizards Presents: Worlds and Monsters. The first live demos of 4th Edition will happen at the D&D Experience gaming convention in Washington D.C. in February 2008. The full scope of 4th Edition books, miniatures, and adventures will be available in the spring and summer of 2008.
> 
> Since its first release in 1974, the fantasy roleplaying game Dungeons & Dragons has taken millions of players on imaginary adventures of epic scale. Today, D&D is universally regarded as the original game that created the roleplaying game category, and the inspiration for generations of game designers. D&D is enjoyed by millions of players worldwide, while countless more remember it with fond nostalgia.


----------



## Glyfair

4th edition preview books?

I wonder whether this is early 4E stuff, 3.5 stuff with a 4E flavor, or something else.


----------



## meomwt

Here's a new TMP Link


----------



## Draxo

Hope they do a good job of it..

The more I think about it, the more I get worried they're going to mess it up.

Worst thing is, I hardly get to play anymore.. so I dont know what this will mean.

My only hope is that they'll make Kobolds a standard PC race option


----------



## Moon-Lancer

Glyfair, sounds like 4e content to get people hyped. as in crunch with possibly flavor. Just like they always do with new books.


----------



## JustKim

BadMojo said:
			
		

> Yeah, my general mood on this is apathy with a touch of disappointment regarding the apparent lack of OGL.



That's not apparent to me at all. One of the 4E threads before the forum was locked was "OGL/d20 License". Although I can't bring up the thread now, the hover text was "Here's the place to share thoughts on the Open Game License under 4E."

So the only evidence I've seen is directly to the contrary.


----------



## Moon-Lancer

well i really really hope for a ogl. do you think i we will find out tomorrow?


----------



## dragonlordofpoondari

> Also releasing next year will be new web-based tools and online community forums through the brand-new Dungeons & Dragons Insider (D&D Insider) digital offering. D&D Insider lowers the barriers of entry for new players while simultaneously offering the depth of play that appeals to veteran players.
> 
> The 4th Edition rules emphasize faster game play, offer exciting new character options, and reduce the amount of "prep time" needed to run the game. D&D Insider includes a character creator that lets players design and equip their D&D characters, dungeon- and adventure-building tools for Dungeon Masters, online magazine content, and a digital game table that lets you play 24/7 on the internet — the perfect option for anyone who can't find time to get together.




Ug. This I suppose was inevitable. Neverwinter Nights has been providing this resource for a while now. WotC is simply subsuming this aspect into the core game. It just doesn't feel right, though. It seems impure somehow.

EDIT: I think I know why ... I believe the medium is critical. If people aren't sitting around a table together rolling actual dice, eating, and laughing together, it doesn't feel like authentic D&D experience to me. I see how virtual game tables are is important to appeal to a wider demographic, but that feels a hell of a lot less like a tabletop dice-driven role-playing game. While a better alternative than not playing, it seems like a weak substitute. I prey to the gods it doesn't become the normative model over the years.


----------



## JustKim

I expect tomorrow those forums will be reopened, and since there's a spot dedicated to 4E OGL discussion it seems likely.


----------



## Friadoc

Glyfair said:
			
		

> 4th edition preview books?
> 
> I wonder whether this is early 4E stuff, 3.5 stuff with a 4E flavor, or something else.





Yeah, they had those packets for when 3e released, too.

Basically, they're hardcopy versions of the preview stuff you see on websites from companies, White Wolf is an excellent example of this, in which they show flavor and crunch mixed together.

Lots of class, race, and what not examples.


----------



## Friadoc

dragonlordofpoondari said:
			
		

> Ug. This I suppose was inevitable. Neverwinter Nights has been providing this resource for a while now. WotC is simply subsuming this aspect into the core game. It just doesn't feel right, though. It seems impure somehow.




Yeah, but this time it might be attached to something good. 

*chuckles*

Seriously though, I do like the idea of a digital table, moreso since I've had to give a lot of serious thought to moving, due to work, and I would love a solid, reasonable option to continuing to play with my group even after moving.


----------



## Mouseferatu

> The 4th Edition rules emphasize faster game play, offer exciting new character options, and reduce the amount of "prep time" needed to run the game.




If this is truly indicative of the new design philosophy, I'm absolutely, 100% all for it. It's exactly what I would've wanted in a new edition.

Now, obviously I'm not prepared to make any decisions based on a single sentence from a press release from a secondary source, but I consider it a positive omen.


----------



## Friadoc

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> If this is truly indicative of the new design philosophy, I'm absolutely, 100% all for it. It's exactly what I would've wanted in a new edition.
> 
> Now, obviously I'm not prepared to make any decisions based on a single sentence from a press release from a secondary source, but I consider it a positive omen.




I'm gonna re-read through Star Wars Saga Edition tomorrow, since I've got a feeling that many aspect of that product are indicative of what's to come with 4e.

Hopefully, though, the dimensions of the book are not one of them.

It still feels odd, when I hold the thing. *grins*


----------



## MerricB

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> If this is truly indicative of the new design philosophy, I'm absolutely, 100% all for it. It's exactly what I would've wanted in a new edition.
> 
> Now, obviously I'm not prepared to make any decisions based on a single sentence from a press release from a secondary source, but I consider it a positive omen.




I'm with Mouseferatu. 

Cheers!


----------



## blargney the second

Thanks to the industry people (Mouseferatu, jgbrowning, Erik Mona) who have chimed in to let us know what's up.  It's appreciated.

I'm excited about 4e on behalf of all the new players that will be introduced to the game over the next couple of years.  WotC is a smart company, and they know that the new edition will alienate a lot of current customers.  The profitable move is to do a strong push to increase their player base, much like they did with the advent of 3e.  The sheer potential is exhilarating.

On a personal note, I'm sad that the barrier to entry will be too much for me to abandon my current investment and switch editions anytime soon.  Hopefully by the time 4.5 rolls around I'll have tapped out my 3.5 resources and be in a better place to take advantage of the great new game.
-blarg


----------



## Chris_Nightwing

For once, I'm glad of time zones. Wonderful time zones that have allowed me to wake up just in time to read all the gossip and news. Wonderful, wonderful time zones that mean the counter on the WotC site finishes just before I go to bed. God bless you time cube, I mean, zones.

I for one welcome our new 4th edition overlords, I genuinely believe they can make the game everything they're claiming.


----------



## Charwoman Gene

I have to sign off... I need so much sleep...


----------



## Lanefan

2 quick thoughts here:

1. Allow me to be the not-quite-first to welcome a bunch o' you to the League of Extraordinary Grognards, a fine organization of which I have been a member for quite some time now.  Pull up a chair.  While you're at it, roll up a character...any edition starting with a number that is 3 or lower will do...here's some d6's... 

2. The release of 4e will just give our crew yet another source to plunder for ideas to possibly add into the "Victoria Rules" system - based on 1e - we already have.

Lanefan


----------



## Matrix Sorcica

Chris_Nightwing said:
			
		

> For once, I'm glad of time zones. Wonderful time zones that have allowed me to wake up just in time to read all the gossip and news. Wonderful, wonderful time zones that mean the counter on the WotC site finishes just before I go to bed. God bless you time cube, I mean, zones.
> 
> I for one welcome our new 4th edition overlords, I genuinely believe they can make the game everything they're claiming.



What the man said.


----------



## AdmundfortGeographer

Charwoman Gene said:
			
		

> I have to sign off... I need so much sleep...



Me too. I'm stuck on 4e gossip and can't get to bed.


----------



## Baumi

I'm very exited about this ... cannot wait till the real announcement 

But as always my intuition sucks. This is the first GenCon in years where I didn't thought that they will announce 4E ....


----------



## green slime

Well, all I can say, is that it had better be an absolutely fantastic edition, and the Digital Interaction not require monthly fees, or it won't be getting my dollars. 

Not saying it can't be all that, but I'm doubtful.


----------



## JDragon

Well it's looking like I'll be joining the ranks of the new Grognards, as I just can't see making the switch anytime soon.   Barring being able to use most of my 3.5 books, changing in June 08 is going to be a stretch.  How ever I will not make my final decision on this until I really know what they are doing with 4e.


On another note, this announcement is not being received with a lot of goodwill on my part.  Having just gotten my last issue of Dungeon in the mail today and expecting my last of Dragon any day now I'm still a bit pissed that they killed them the way the did. (I know they are being moved to the DI, but how ever you spin it they KILLED them, IMHO.)  Add to that the fact that we have been told again & again that 4e was a long ways off (as quoted somewhere earlier in this thread), I'm just not buying that.  Announcing a new product approx 6 months after that statement for what appears to be a release in less than a year is NOT A FREAKIN' "Long way off"!  /rant


JD


----------



## Visceris

I hope it is not 4th Edition.

I have taken a look in the Saga rules for the New Star Wars game and I hated them.  I really do.  If that is how 4th Edition is going to be laid out I want nothing to do with it.  I am very much happy with 3.5e.  I like the class system, the detailed skills, the feat structure, and everything else in the game.  I see no reason for there to be a 4th Edition.  It is just a marketing ploy to bring in revenue.  I have spent enough money on Dungeons and Dragons rules.  I don't want nor need new core books.


----------



## Aloïsius

There were people in the know... It's not a coincidence if Nothingland close when 4e open...
Hail to the squirrel !


----------



## Talath

JDragon said:
			
		

> On another note, this announcement is not being received with a lot of goodwill on my part.  Having just gotten my last issue of Dungeon in the mail today and expecting my last of Dragon any day now I'm still a bit pissed that they killed them the way the did. (I know they are being moved to the DI, but how ever you spin it they KILLED them, IMHO.)  Add to that the fact that we have been told again & again that 4e was a long ways off (as quoted somewhere earlier in this thread), I'm just not buying that.  Announcing a new product approx 6 months after that statement for what appears to be a release in less than a year is NOT A FREAKIN' "Long way off"!  /rant
> 
> 
> JD




10 monthes is a short time to release a new edition. 3e had a berth of time.


----------



## Berandor

Done. Phew. Now to wait another 12 hours, and then until December? Dangit, I want some goods.

Our current campaign (Shackled City, closing on three years now) will finish in 3.5, possibly just in time for the MM to appear in July. And then? We don't use miniatures, so that might get in the way of switching. Less prep time, however... that would be good.


----------



## Fifth Element

johnnype said:
			
		

> And a tip of the hat to Monte Cook who called this a long time ago.



People have been "calling" 4E for several years now. Being the most recent is not necessarily being the best prognosticator.


----------



## Maggan

Fifth Element said:
			
		

> People have been "calling" 4E for several years now. Being the most recent is not necessarily being the best prognosticator.




Now is the time to dredge up those "when do you think 4e is due" threads, and start tallying up who was right and who was wrong.

As far as I remember, some people have been predicting 2008 since sometime 2005. I know I've gone on record in threads as saying 2008. Which was just a hunch as much as anything.

So those with search access! Go wild!

 

/M


----------



## Tharen the Damned

This is my 4cast:
If 4th edition is currently designed, where are the playtesters?
I mean there have to be some people out there gloating because they now how it will be.
Right?
Or, do they go without Playtesters?
Only the WOC Staff tests?
Then, I definetly wait for 4.5.
Have a look at 3.0 Playtester List and see how many changes they made for 3.5.
No think about 4.0 done without external playtesters.
We will see what the future brings.


----------



## BiggusGeekus

Fifth Element said:
			
		

> People have been "calling" 4E for several years now. Being the most recent is not necessarily being the best prognosticator.




I gave into the notion of a 4th edition when I saw that Cook was getting out of RPGs.


----------



## Grazzt

Maggan said:
			
		

> Now is the time to dredge up those "when do you think 4e is due" threads, and start tallying up who was right and who was wrong.
> 
> As far as I remember, some people have been predicting 2008 since sometime 2005. I know I've gone on record in threads as saying 2008. Which was just a hunch as much as anything.
> 
> So those with search access! Go wild!
> 
> 
> 
> /M




Clark Peterson mentioned it back in May of this year. (http://p208.ezboard.com/fnecromancergamesfrm9.showMessage?topicID=553.topic)

That's 1.


----------



## Maggan

Tharen the Damned said:
			
		

> We will see what the future brings.




A massive playtest through the RPGA, is my guess.

/M


----------



## DaveMage

If they make a faster game that I can port all of my 3.x stuff to with ease, then I'm all for it.

However, I'm not going to buy *yet another* FR Campaign Setting and rehash of similar setting books.

I've spent so much on this stuff that I'm thinking this is a good reason to get off the train.

Plus, the good news is that my Pathfinder subscription credit should take me through the end of 3.5 nicely. 

The thing that really pisses me off though, is that Tegal Manor now will probably be retooled for 4E and it won't mesh well with my other 3E JG stuff.


----------



## mhensley




----------



## mhensley

Maggan said:
			
		

> Now is the time to dredge up those "when do you think 4e is due" threads, and start tallying up who was right and who was wrong.
> 
> As far as I remember, some people have been predicting 2008 since sometime 2005. I know I've gone on record in threads as saying 2008. Which was just a hunch as much as anything.
> 
> So those with search access! Go wild!
> 
> 
> 
> /M




I predicted this in 2006.  The naysayers may apologize now.


----------



## Akhena

So 4th is coming...

Maybe it's been already pointed out. But did anyone notice that the path adventure from Paizo Publishing is going till ... April 2008. And I read that 4th starts in May 2008. I say there are no coincidence. The Paizo people knew very well what was going to happen, and they got ready for it. An adventure path till 4th is released and maybe they are already preparing their next adevnture path to be used with 4th edition rules.

But maybe this is just a coincidence...


----------



## Klaus

4th Edition, eh? It'd be a nice point to get new and fresh art, wouldn't you agree, WotC?

WotC?

Anyone?

Ferris?


----------



## Sound of Azure

mhensley said:
			
		

> <4e Advisory pic>




Bwahahaha! That's great!


----------



## Numion

This is good news. Probably they'll improve the game, and if they don't, well, I have two adventure paths and Ptolus 1-20 campaign to play.


----------



## Numion

mhensley said:
			
		

> I predicted this in 2006.  The naysayers may apologize now.




Well, people have predicted 4E since 3.5E, so it's hardly suprising someone was actually right. Like, you know, broken clock is right twice a day, unless it's a digital watch and doesn't show anything.


----------



## Tharen the Damned

Akhena said:
			
		

> So 4th is coming...
> 
> Maybe it's been already pointed out. But did anyone notice that the path adventure from Paizo Publishing is going till ... April 2008. And I read that 4th starts in May 2008. I say there are no coincidence. The Paizo people knew very well what was going to happen, and they got ready for it. An adventure path till 4th is released and maybe they are already preparing their next adevnture path to be used with 4th edition rules.
> 
> But maybe this is just a coincidence...




Yes, it is coincidence. Somehwere between page 1 and here Erik Mona mentioned that they were in the dark concerning 4th ed too. As for Pathfinder, they have no plans yet but they will listen to what the subscribers/buyers say.
I believe them.


----------



## The Grumpy Celt

Someone needs to come up with a grognard anthem...

I've always known 4E was in the works, but I did not think it was coming until 2009 - its beating my predictions by about 18 months or so.

As a gamer, ambivalence is a good term for how I feel. 3E was better than 2E, and 3.5E better still but now I'm in my 30s, and if not quite set in my ways I am a little resentful of change for the sake of change (as in money change in someone’s pocket) and so 4E will have to be pretty good for me to bother.

As an occasional RPG supplement writer, I'm wondering how this will play out. It also seems exceptionally unlikely that 4E will simply be OGL. But it might be licensed – at heavy expense – to third party publishers. It seems unlikely OGL and d20 will be folded up, but it probably will be forgotten and neglected by gamers, in which case for all intents and purposes it will still just “go away.”

Please, do not presume to lecture me about how WotC and Hasbro are for profit enterprises. I am not retarded and I know that – but nothing about capitalist philosophy says I have to start being stupidly giddy when this kind of thing happens.

I bet my pet hermit crabs that Forgotten Realms will be kept and brought forwards, a nameless version of Grayhawk will also be kept as the default setting. I wonder about Eberron…


----------



## mhensley

Numion said:
			
		

> Well, people have predicted 4E since 3.5E, so it's hardly suprising someone was actually right. Like, you know, broken clock is right twice a day, unless it's a digital watch and doesn't show anything.




It's a nice change of pace to be right once in while.  I also predicted that WOTC would get totally out of the miniatures business when they dumped Chainmail - oops, that was kinda wrong...


----------



## TheYeti1775

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> We're pretty much as in the dark as everyone. I have reason to believe I'll know more soon, but it's way, way, WAY to early to say what our plans are, because we haven't made them yet.
> 
> Pathfinder and the GameMastery Modules are 3.5 until 4.0 comes out. After that it'll be an issue of the terms of the OGL and a variety of other factors, _*including what our readers tell us they want us to do.*_--Erik





And that right there is why we love supporting Paizo.  They have always listened to their customer base.  
Honestly though if 4E is very restrictive on it's OGL'ness, I can see Paizo as the leader in our divergent fork staying in 3.5E.

Yeti


----------



## Son_of_Thunder

Ya, I'm cautiously optimistic as well. The extent of my 3.x books are three 3.0 PH's, the 3.5 SRD and a hand full of Malhavok PDF's, so I'm not that heavily vested in 3.x. The group I play in currently runs 2nd and if 4th is as simple as pre-d20 I might look at it.


----------



## Son_of_Thunder

So do I read the DI correctly when I can purchase an online book and it's updated for free when and if there are rule changes and errata? So no Polymorph in 5 odd books for example?


----------



## BiggusGeekus

mhensley said:
			
		

>




That is awesome.


----------



## Irda Ranger

Son_of_Thunder said:
			
		

> So do I read the DI correctly when I can purchase an online book and it's updated for free when and if there are rule changes and errata? So no Polymorph in 5 odd books for example?



That would be nice, as long as they let you "Comment" your house rules in the margins, and those comments are persistent from rule version to version.

BUT, they better have a good change log to print out, and you better read it, because 4e's _Polymorph_ won't work the same from session to session.


----------



## pallen

EricNoah said:
			
		

> My goal is to stick with 3e and yet avoid becoming a bitter grognard.  Possible?  We'll find out...



When I saw that Eric was posting to this thread, I just had to add my 2 cents.

I was happy playing the 2e grognard role when I first heard that Wizards was working on 3e.  Then I found that stinkin' Eric Noah blog.  And I kept finding myself reacting to his different updates, "Hey that's a good idea." or "Ooh, I'll have to add that house rule to my game".  And I ended up being a convert.

And it's all your fault, Eric Noah!


----------



## GreatLemur

Anybody thinking "tieflings as a core race", yet?


----------



## EricNoah

pallen said:
			
		

> Then I found that stinkin' Eric Noah blog.




The word "blog" didn't exist back then.  That's how long ago it was!    I simply called it "Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D Third Edition News."  Rolls right off the tongue...


----------



## Xyxox

EricNoah said:
			
		

> The word "blog" didn't exist back then.  That's how long ago it was!    I simply called it "Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D Third Edition News."  Rolls right off the tongue...




And now there are things like my Xyxox Plog , which is a Project Log.



BTW, Eric, lookslike your avatar needs an upgrade.


----------



## Jonathan Drain

GreatLemur said:
			
		

> Anybody thinking "tieflings as a core race", yet?




I thought of that. I've assumed that the art could be from the Monster Manual or some other book. No edition to date has made tieflings a core race I'd hate to see the negative PR from a game that lets you play "demons".


----------



## Chris_Nightwing

EricNoah said:
			
		

> The word "blog" didn't exist back then.  That's how long ago it was!    I simply called it "Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D Third Edition News."  Rolls right off the tongue...




I demand a NOSTALGIA THREAD!


----------



## johnnype

mhensley said:
			
		

>



This is hilarious except for the fact that just yesterday you were at code yellow (Elevated) and now you've jumped Orange (High) and went straight to Red (Severe). I think your code is flawed. We should have had more warning. It should have been at Orange all this time.


----------



## Jonathan Drain

johnnype said:
			
		

> This is hilarious except for the fact that just yesterday you were at code yellow (Elevated) and now you've jumped Orange (High) and went straight to Red (Severe). I think your code is flawed. We should have had more warning. It should have been at Orange all this time.




Surely if this is to mirror the real thing, we should stay at Guarded most of the time, switching to Elevated once in a while just to keep us on our toes?


----------



## Festivus

Friadoc said:
			
		

> I'm gonna re-read through Star Wars Saga Edition tomorrow, since I've got a feeling that many aspect of that product are indicative of what's to come with 4e.
> 
> Hopefully, though, the dimensions of the book are not one of them.
> 
> It still feels odd, when I hold the thing. *grins*




I almost want to say that the shape of the book was intentional as a copy protection mechanism.  Harder to scan / print a odd shaped duck.


----------



## Corinth

I need a bulletproof answer to this question before I go to 4E: "Why play this when I can just play WOW?"


----------



## Jonathan Drain

Corinth said:
			
		

> I need a bulletproof answer to this question before I go to 4E: "Why play this when I can just play WOW?"




Why play any D&D game when you could play WoW?

Unfortunately, a lot of people who used to play D&D now prefer the WoW experience. I think a new edition can get a lot of those people playing again, but there are some people who find the dice and paper thing a bore.


----------



## Glyfair

Jonathan Drain said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, a lot of people who used to play D&D now prefer the WoW experience. I think a new edition can get a lot of those people playing again, but there are some people who find the dice and paper thing a bore.




I think there are a lot of reasons besides that.  I've had a few who like it because getting a group together is too much of a headache.  They can get online and start playing without having to play event planner and find a time that fits in everyone's schedule.


----------



## Klaus

Corinth said:
			
		

> I need a bulletproof answer to this question before I go to 4E: "Why play this when I can just play WOW?"



 Unending adaptability.

In WoW you can only do the tasks, go on the quests and make the characters built into the game.

In D&D (4e or otherwise), you can do anything, go anywhere, be anyone.


----------



## Remathilis

johnnype said:
			
		

> This is hilarious except for the fact that just yesterday you were at code yellow (Elevated) and now you've jumped Orange (High) and went straight to Red (Severe). I think your code is flawed. We should have had more warning. It should have been at Orange all this time.




Ever seen how the real threat level adviser worked?


----------



## Ishmayl

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> Pathfinder and the GameMastery Modules are 3.5 until 4.0 comes out. After that it'll be an issue of the terms of the OGL and a variety of other factors, including what our readers tell us they want us to do.
> 
> --Erik




I don't think there's a single quote anywhere else on any D&D-related sites that expresses my sentiments on how a publisher should act more than Erik's statement here.  If only WotC had people saying "including what our readers tell us they want us to do."


----------



## mhensley

johnnype said:
			
		

> This is hilarious except for the fact that just yesterday you were at code yellow (Elevated) and now you've jumped Orange (High) and went straight to Red (Severe). I think your code is flawed. We should have had more warning. It should have been at Orange all this time.




Honesty, when I was first making this I was going to place the alert level to High due to the comments made by the Necromancer guys.  I just thought the Elevated level to be the funniest one to post though.


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## Falstaff

*OMG!*

Have any of you guys clicked on the #4 of the d20? There is a hidden link to the PHB's cover art!

Awesome!


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## AdmundfortGeographer

Falstaff said:
			
		

> *OMG!*
> 
> Have any of you guys clicked on the #4 of the d20? There is a hidden link to the PHB's cover art!
> 
> Awesome!



What browser are you using, and what type of computer?


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## EricNoah

Where exactly are you seeing this?  I'm not seeing it at www.wizards.com/dnd ...


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## Falstaff

Falstaff said:
			
		

> *OMG!*
> 
> Have any of you guys clicked on the #4 of the d20? There is a hidden link to the PHB's cover art!
> 
> Awesome!




Okay, I'm just kidding!   

happy gaming!


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## Jonathan Drain

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> What browser are you using, and what type of computer?




Clearly he's using Microsoft Hoax Explorer.


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## Aeolius

Falstaff said:
			
		

> Have any of you guys clicked on the #4 of the d20? There is a hidden link to the PHB's cover art!




   When TSR had forums on AOL, there were hidden links on their main page that led to information about various dragons.


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## AdmundfortGeographer

Cute.


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## Hjorimir

Ishmayl said:
			
		

> I don't think there's a single quote anywhere else on any D&D-related sites that expresses my sentiments on how a publisher should act more than Erik's statement here.  If only WotC had people saying "including what our readers tell us they want us to do."



But WotC is doing what I want them to do!


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## Jonathan Drain

They just switched up the image.

"Thursday 6:30pm, August 16, 2007, Sagamore Ballroom - Indianapolist Convention Center"


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## catsclaw227

Falstaff said:
			
		

> Okay, I'm just kidding!
> 
> happy gaming!



I am not sure that this was appropriate.


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## morbiczer

Some thoughts:

1. I wasn't expecting 4E before 2009, since 
a) WotC said that all major D&D announcements in the future will be made at D&D Experience
b) I believed them when they said just a few months ago that 4E is still a "long way off". (These probably weren't the exact words, but the basic meaning of what was said.)

Wizards certainly lost quite some credibility with me, but that's I think something they can live with. (See also:  "Ending Dragon & Dungeon has nothing to do with an upcomming new edition." Sure.)

2. Am I understanding it right that the Digital Initiative (now called D&D Insider) will only feature 4E (and edition independent) content? Will it be launched only in the spring of 2008?

I would have thought that there would be a year or two of 3.5 DI time, and only then a switch. As I see it now, there will be two "entry barriers" to the DI: you must be interested in online content + you must switch to 4E. I'm sure some people would have tried a 3.5 DI (and than stayed for a 4.0 version), but won't join now. 

The impact of this is probably not to big though.

3. My first impressions - based on the small tidbits of information available at this point - aren't that positve. It seems that the rules are getting "simplified" (in other words: dumbed down), that's not necessarily something that I was looking for. Also I'm not getting this whole focus on "encounters". It seems so gamey. And looking back at some of my groups, I know that we would have had lot's of arguments when one encounter ends end when the new one starts. (I never warmed up to the new adventure format either.)  

But I don't think that I'm really Wizards target audience anyway: I'm absolutely not interested in any online content (at leats not the form Wizards seems to have come up with), and am even less interested in miniatures. (Counters, coins or dice are doing the job fine, for a fraction af the costs.) 

I think my gaming dollars in the future will go to Green Ronin's upcoming A Song of Ice and Fire books. I get the first two issues of Pathfinder for my remaining Dragon and Dungeon subscriptions. I'll probably by the rest of the first AP if it's any good. (I don't have much doubt that it will be.) After seeing the first previews, I really liked the setting material Paizo came up with for their new world, but I'll probably hold my purchases of it untill I see the future of the Pathfinder line (3.5? 4.0? something completly different?)

4. I wonder whether there will be introductionary prices for the new core books. When 3.0 came out, the PHB, the MM and the DMG cost only 20 dollars for some time, not 30 as later. Such a step by Wizards would increase the chances of me buying at least the new PHB.

5. What's up with the two "preview" books? Will people really pay 15 dollars just to staisfy their curiosity? Maybe it's just me, but this seems a pretty lame idea.

Bottom line: Good luck to Wizards. What you came up with is probably not what I'm looking for.


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## GentleGiant

GreatLemur said:
			
		

> Anybody thinking "tieflings as a core race", yet?



Tieflings are indeed going to be a core race:
http://www.wizarduniverse.com/magazine/inquest/005672645.cfm


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## morbiczer

By the way: I find it somewhat funny, that Wizards has such great online plans, but when I go to their "countdown page", I can only see half the page, and there is no way to scroll down.

This is the same in IE and Firefox.


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## Corinth

Klaus said:
			
		

> Unending adaptability.
> 
> In WoW you can only do the tasks, go on the quests and make the characters built into the game.
> 
> In D&D (4e or otherwise), you can do anything, go anywhere, be anyone.



That's not the reality of how the game, now and in the past, was actually used.


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## dragonlordofpoondari

"The game will remain the same! The game will remain the same!"

I don't allow laptops at my table. The suck the fun out of the room. Everyone gets distracted by them.

My game will remain the same ... without D&D Insider.


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## WotC_Dave

For what it's worth, the highest tech at my 4E playtest table right now is...the three-ring binder. (At least it's got moving parts, right?)

I'm really looking forward to the prep-time I'll save with all the digital stuff, but I'm still rolling dice, talking in funny voices, and moving little dudes arounds on Thursday nights. And I wouldn't want it any other way.

--David Noonan, game designer, Wizards of the Coast.
...who wishes he had time to reply to every thread.
...who is vaguely aware of the irony of typing the above on a wireless-enabled laptop.


----------



## dragonlordofpoondari

WotC_Dave said:
			
		

> For what it's worth, the highest tech at my 4E playtest table right now is...the three-ring binder. (At least it's got moving parts, right?)
> 
> I'm really looking forward to the prep-time I'll save with all the digital stuff, but I'm still rolling dice, talking in funny voices, and moving little dudes arounds on Thursday nights. And I wouldn't want it any other way.
> 
> --David Noonan, game designer, Wizards of the Coast.
> ...who wishes he had time to reply to every thread.
> ...who is vaguely aware of the irony of typing the above on a wireless-enabled laptop.




Hmm ... that's good to know, David.

Still, I wish that the bulk of this putatively fabulous online content was available in dead tree form since D&D is, at its heart, a game best played in meatspace, not webspace. Having tools online makes sense I suppose (it would be nice if they could be downloaded and used offline)... but I don't want my game or even prep to be chained to a computer.


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## Treebore

Corinth said:
			
		

> That's not the reality of how the game, now and in the past, was actually used.





????

What game are you talking about?


----------



## Irda Ranger

WotC_Dave said:
			
		

> For what it's worth, the highest tech at my 4E playtest table right now is...the three-ring binder.



Good to hear. D&D Insider looks good, but I'd hate for it to be mandatory (by rules or de facto).


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