# How Would You Defend A Mountain Fortress? (Volume II)



## SHARK

EDIT BY HENRY - FIRST THREAD WAS http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=18134&page=1&pp=20

Greetings!

The other thread of this topic was reaching a point of awkwardness, so I have started this thread to continue the interesting conversation.

Thanks again everyone for your interesting ideas and fine contributions to this topic! I have postponed the upcoming scenario, personally, so that at least for me, this thread remains not only very interesting, but also quite useful.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## mmadsen

To recap, how would you defend your Mountain Citadel against the oncoming Vallorean Legions and their Vallorean Champions?

You are an epic-level general of the Galleran empire, serving under the terrible Vampire Lord Mallenar.

The Vallorean Champions (the PCs) are between 30th and 60th level, with numerous cohorts and followers from 15th to 20th level.  The Vallorean Legions are high-level (8th to 12th), with enchanted communication helmets, masterwork arms and armor, and enchanted food, water, and healing supplies.  Specialist units, the Inquisitors and Witch Hunters, hunt down Vampires and Lycanthropes.

The Valloreans also field units of Pegasus, Griffon, and Giant-Eagle air-cav that land groups of flying commandos -- after softening up the landing area with several Meteor Swarms, followed by globes of exploding Daylight.

Our forces include:

(1) Commander (50th level)
(12) Elite Specialists (30th level)
(24) Lords (20th level)
(1) Wang-Liang/Half-Fiend General (30th level)
(2) Wang-Liang/Half-Fiend Lords (20th level)
(30) Wang-Liang/Half-Fiends (16th level)
(300) Wang-Liangs (12th level)
(38) Fire-Giants (20th level)
(24) Cloud-Giants (20th level)
(15) Chimeras
(12) Manticores
(600) Vampires (6th-12th level)
(880) Werewolves (4th-12th level)
(2800) Ogres (under 10th level)
(26,000) Hobgoblins (standard levels as organized)
(100,000) Humans (minimum of 2nd level, majority Fighters)

We have to defend two human cities and our own Mountain Citadel, holding off the Valloreans until Lord Mallenar sweeps them away in a deluge of blood and fire.

Edit: The original thread is still at http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18134.  Feel free to read the original thread, but please reply to _this_ thread.


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## mmadsen

So, against their 350,000 elite human heavy infantry and auxiliaries, we're supposed to pit our ~150,000 humans, hobgoblins, and assorted monsters. Let's look at our strengths and weaknesses.

Our Wang-Liang are effectively Trolls that can turn invisible or disguise themselves. That is, they're big, strong, and immune to most attacks (except fire and acid). I'd love to be able to send Wang-Liang skirmishers against mundane heavy infantry. They can do some damage, withdraw -- with some dead foes for "rations" -- come back fresh, and so on. They can also ambush quite effectively, using their invisibility. Perhaps they can even disguise themselves and infiltrate a camp that doesn't have much magical support. We can't risk Fireballs and Flame Strikes though. Disguised as mundane Ogres, the Wang-Liang might not draw so much fire.

The Vampires have many stengths and at least a few obvious weaknesses. Vampires and their spawn are, of course, vulnerable to sunlight and to Clerical magic, but they have an amazing capacity for spawning more of their kind -- particularly in the short term, since they "spawn" quickly and won't run out of "food" in the time frame of this military campaign. The two nearby cities might find their "noncombatants" (women and old men) quickly conscripted into the Midnight Legions. Also, Vampires don't have to advertise their nature. Armed as soldiers, adult, male Vampires should blend in fine (during a night attack).

The Werewolves, as lycanthropes, don't "spawn" as quickly and effectively as the Vampires. Perhaps they can use their curse behind enemy lines or in guerrilla skirmishes -- the high-level Clerics can't be everywhere -- but they don't end up with powerful slaves. In the vast forests, they should make good scouts and quasi-cavalry, and they may have enough wolves there to command as auxiliaries.


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## mmadsen

From SHARK's original post:

Chief areas for defense and fortification for you to be generally focused on are as follows: 
The fortress itself
The surrounding forest
The mountains and hills within about ten miles in every direction.
The city of Koben-Charrak, and the river-crossings. There is an extensive barge system and river traffic that moves across, and up and down the great river. This river traffic is not only a source of supplies, but also troop deployment.
Your forces are familiar with the terrain, and the terrain favours the defense. Attacking forces will be in for a difficult time, even under the best leadership. 

Being outnumbered, and with limited hard military support, you will have less margin for error, and will have to deploy and equip your forces carefully, and also to make every operation, ambush, and struggle count. The enemy forces may very well send elite units of adventurers to assassinate you, and wipe out the command staff before the arrival of the Legions. 

In addition, though you are quite capable, it should be realised that the enemy will very likely end up assaulting the fortress by storm. The Valloreans will not be merciful, nor will they spare the city populations. Anything that seems tainted and wicked in whatever manner, can be expected to be put to the sword, or burned at the stake. Be prepared for ferocious, relentless, and absolutely ruthless attacks by the Valloreans.


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## mmadsen

According to SHARK, the Valloreans organize their forces in the following forms:

Legion Table of Organization and Equipment (TOE)
Legion: Each Legion is composed of three Regiments, totaling 10,000 men, Commanded by a Legate. Also called a Brigadier General. The Deputy Commander of a Legion is a Lord Tribune.
Each Regiment is composed of three Battalions, totaling 2,622 men, commanded by a Tribune. 
Each Battalion is composed of four Companies, totaling 874 men, commanded by a Praefect.
Each Company is composed of four Platoons, totaling 218 men, commanded by a Captain.
Each Platoon is composed of four Squads, totaling 54 men, commanded by a Centurion.
Each Squad is composed of three detachments, totaling 13 men, commanded by a Sergeant.
In addition to the standard Legion formations, there are the following units that are part of a Legion, totaling 2,126 men. They are as follows:
1 Special Operations Battalion: These forces are various levels of different characters and specialists, who have a range of tactical deployments.
1 Headquarters Battalion: Various levels of experienced characters, some serve to assist in the administration of the legion, while others are elite bodyguards and so on.
1 Air Assault Company: Various levels of Sorcerers and Wizards, mounted on enchanted Griffons.
1 Elite Ranger Platoon: Various levels of Rangers.
1 Elite Knight-Templar Platoon: Various levels of Paladins, Witch Hunters, Inquisitors, and Clerics.
1 Elite Shadow-Raven Squad: Composed of 4 Valloreans, Rogue 10/Shadow Raven 10; 4 Valloreans, Rogue 10/Shadow Raven 6; 8 Valloreans, Rogue 10/Shadow Raven 2.
1 Heavy Assault Squad: Composed of the following:
1 20th level Cloud Giant Sorcerer
1 20th level Cloud Giant Cleric
1 20th level Cloud Giant Fighter
1 20th level Cloud Giant Ranger
1 16th level Cloud Giant Sorcerer
1 16th level Cloud Giant Cleric
1 16th level Cloud Giant Fighter
1 16th level Cloud Giant Ranger
2 12th level Cloud Giant Sorcerers
6 12th level Cloud Giant Fighters
1 Arcane Communications Squad: (Composed of 4 20th level Sorcerers; 4 16th level Sorcerers; 8 12th level Sorcerers. These are usually distributed to each Battalion, to maintain overall command coordination.


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## mmadsen

The average Vallorean Squad is composed of a Vallorean/Half-Celestial, 16th level Fighter; Aasimar Fighter 4/Wizard 12; Aasimar Cleric 12; Aasimar Rogue 12; Urrgan Ranger 12; Ogre Fighter 12; (6) Vallorean Humans, Fighter 8; (1) Vallorean Human Fighter 4.

The Vallorean Legions have magical communication helmets, magical waterskins, and magical MRE (food ration) packs.  They also have items that enhance skills like Hide, Search, Spot, Listen, Swimming and Climbing. Most of the legionnaires (12th level and lower) have either Masterwork weapons and equipment, or magical weaponry of no greater value than +2.


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## mmadsen

In the campaign, there is no resurrection or raise dead spells. Once someone is dead--they are dead. There are however, "Fate Points" and there is the Philosopher's Egg, and a few other substances, magical places, and so on, that can restore life to a dead creature, but they are usually very isolated and rare.


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## mmadsen

I hope that summarizes the ground rules adequately.


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## hong

This is starting to sound like the Sharkworld Mountain Fortress Industrial Revolution. 


Hong "so, what would be the Industrial Rating of a Vallorean Legion?" Ooi


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## Maldur

I started a writeup of the 2800 odd ogres. Ill complete the text asap, but I have a large workload this week.

These ogres are the cadets of a military academy situated at the fortress. This academy takes ordinary teenage ogres and forms them into Shock Ogres, Teams of ogres trained in exploiting openings created by artillery. Unfortunately they are not completely trained so only a small part of the group is capable of their famus shock attacks. To train and support the ogres a cadre of trainers is also part of the academy. To use the typical ogre traits, competitiveness and ( for lack of a better word) simplemindedness, most of these trainers are skilled propagandist (bards) and they are very good in whipping the ogres into a frenzy.

Images:
Young ogres trained to several levels of effectiveness and compatance.  

Fanatical loyalty to the King, ingrained by years of propaganda and brainwashing.

Commisar-like-trainers using fiery retoric to whip the ogres into a fighting frenzy ( the speaking horn is standard equipment for trainers)


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## NewbyDM

I haven't followed this thread... so, maybe my ideas are already mentioned... but,
take the 600 vampires... and make with the 100,000 humans and x hobgoblins, 100,000 + x + 600 vampires 
hit the anti-undead squads first... with so many vampires who can multipy themselfs, use globes of continual darkness (a lot of them) to keep it dark (advantage for undeads, fighting in darkness vs blinded opponents) and LET'S MAKE MORE VAMPIRES .

Also nice to see your friend turning in a vampire. It destroys morale.

Im also a fan of fireworks and summoning... everyone must love the large area of effect spells and the maralith (animate dead at will)

And if nothing works pray and run away! 

im out... to think of more


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## mmadsen

> I haven't followed this thread... so, maybe my ideas are already mentioned... but, take the 600 vampires... and make with the 100,000 humans and x hobgoblins, 100,000 + x + 600 vampires



I can understand not reading the entire original thread -- it was unwieldly, and that's why we started this thread -- but the _third_ post of this new thread mentions that exact strategy:







> The Vampires have many stengths and at least a few obvious weaknesses. Vampires and their spawn are, of course, vulnerable to sunlight and to Clerical magic, but they have an amazing capacity for spawning more of their kind -- particularly in the short term, since they "spawn" quickly and won't run out of "food" in the time frame of this military campaign. The two nearby cities might find their "noncombatants" (women and old men) quickly conscripted into the Midnight Legions. Also, Vampires don't have to advertise their nature. Armed as soldiers, adult, male Vampires should blend in fine (during a night attack).



I don't mean to get snippy, but what's the point of starting a new thread and summarizing the old thread's key points if people aren't even going to read the short summary?


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## NewbyDM

i did read it... it slipped my mind i guess, sorry for it, can i go now?


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## Maldur

mmmm, i only now noticed! Sharks starts a new thread and mmadsen recaps like mad!

You guys are teaming up on the rest of the world, are you?


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## mmadsen

> i did read it... it slipped my mind i guess, sorry for it, can i go now?



I apologize for getting snippy, NewbyDM -- and I _did_ get snippy -- but I recapped for a reason.  Indeed, I "recapped like mad" so new posters wouldn't have to dredge through the old thread, and so we could keep the signal-to-noise as high as possible in this new thread.  (Even this clarification is dropping the value of our thread...)

I want you to post here, and I understand that people will bring up ideas I've seen before.  Just try to skim the recap posts and _add_ to them.


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## mmadsen

To further recap some good ideas from the old thread:

Our Vampires make excellent night-time recon forces.  They can summon wolves and rats to harrass the legions.  Perhaps we can seed the rats with plague?  As animals, they're Neutral, and the legions Lawful Good defenses probably won't stop them.  If the Vampires can Dominate Vallorean Centurions, they can conceal this fact, and exercise their dominance at a critical moment; it works at any distance, once established.  And, of course, our Vampires can spawn a Vampire army in less than a week.

Our Werewolves make excellent recon forces and ideal baggage-train harriers.  Further, they can work with the Vampire's summoned wolves, perhaps blending in.

Our illusions and invisibility can't fool specialist sentries, but they can confuse rank-and-file troops.  An ambush of invisible Wang-Liang shows up on "radar", but an attack by Ogres, Fire Giants, and Wang-Liang magically disguised as Ogres and Fire Giants might keep the spellcasters from targeting the Wang-Liang's weakness to fire (and acid).

Since we're evil, and many of our troops can operate well behind enemy lines, we should attack the troops' loved ones back home.  Then we can present illusions of those loved ones in pain, becoming Vampires or Werewolves, etc.  That could weaken morale, particularly if the loved ones plead with the soldiers to come home.

If our undead armies go beyond Vampires, we can bury Zombies, Ghouls, etc. along the path between Them and Us.  At the right moment, our armies strike -- from below!  Or we can spawn a Shadow army almost instantly, if we can get to the legions at night.

Of course, the legions themselves seem to be the least of our worries.  A handful of Champions can bring the fight to us in a bad way.


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## NewbyDM

retry...

1- make an undead army (as mentioned before) with the vampires.
2- use a darkness generating spell that does allow darkvision, maybe something epic with a very large area of effect.
(The MM doesn't say under the heading vampire that these creatures have darkvision, but it does under the heading undead, so i assume the "creatures of the night" can see in the dark (60ft).
3- Make them go in melee (the undead) use cold and electrical damage (not heavy damage but moderate damage spells) to weaken the enemy troops (makes it easier to add vamps to the lot) and also eliminating the enemies archers and such (if they don't want to fire in the dark amids their own troops) and the vampires are largely immune to the spells.
4- Fighting in winter when its very cold is an advantage for the undeads not to be underestimated (see WW2)

For the high level bunch,... try to let them make a surprise move... (high level assault squat) and try to cut them off (don't let them go)...
Hit them with anti magic area's (spells like that) and create a large slap of stone above their head and let it drop. If im not mistaking, this slap of stone isn't magical anymore when the spell is done.or... use something like the spell (turn pebble to boulder, the reverse of it boulder to pebble (tome of magic, long ago)) when these pebbles hit the antimagic field they ... KABOOM!... anyway, i don't have all the books to see if the spell is still there...

Make a epic level dispelling spell with a large area of effect only for low levels spells... to disable these magical communication helmets, magical waterskins, and magical MRE (food ration) packs... i think they don't expect to bring along more food and water...

Make a pact with a demon(s) for more resources, these Vallorean's have planetar and aasimon help, why we not demon/devil (one of the 2) help (little thought: maybe demons and devils on each of the sides of the Vallorean's troops, maybe they fight harder to get to eachother). and use the fastness of  abysses/hell forces to keep the Vallorean's busy... Think there demons/devils always wanted to pick a fight with some big goodies on neutral ground.
And if you can't use tactics like these, i think to Vallorean's superior numbers, superior combat-power, superior quantity of high level troops, better morale, better training and superior communication/logistic would rip us apart...

We have one advantage... we fight on our ground.

Hope this did contribute to this tread mr. snippy


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## Leopold

i still say disease and poison will be the greatest tool here. Poisoning the supply traing that holds the valloreans foodstuffs will put a halt to the whole march. Without supplies the food would remain useless and inedible.


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## mmadsen

> i still say disease and poison will be the greatest tool here.



How useful is disease against an army full of high-level Clerics, Paladins, and assorted Half-Celestials?  (Notice that Half-Celestials are immune to disease, get +4 Fort vs. poison, can neutralize poison at 5th level, and can remove disease at 7th level.)


> Poisoning the supply traing that holds the valloreans foodstuffs will put a halt to the whole march. Without supplies the food would remain useless and inedible.



We've already established that the Valloreans carry magical MRE (Meals, Ready-to-Eat) packs and waterskins.


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## Cergorach

Why not 'upgrade' some of your own troops to vampires? Think about it, a Vampiric 20th level Fighter Firegiant is a very scarry proposition...


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## mmadsen

> use a darkness generating spell that does allow darkvision, maybe something epic with a very large area of effect.



Odd, isn't it, that Darkness is opaque to Darkvision?  Especially since there's already a Deeper Darkness spell out there.  Anyway, an epic Twilight spell makes perfect sense.

With that in mind, perhaps we should arm our Darkvision troops primarily with missile weapons.


> Fighting in winter when its very cold is an advantage for the undeads not to be underestimated (see WW2)



Unfortunately, the Valloreans have started their military campaign in spring.  I doubt we can delay them until winter.  Maybe some epic magic can change that.


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## mmadsen

*Standard High-Level Magic vs. High-Level Magic Tactics*

When we stop to consider the Vallorean Champions, we face one specific instance of a much broader, more general problem: how do high-level characters with high-level magic deal with one another? It all becomes so far removed from reality, that the tactics aren't very intuitive.

Teleport, for instance, removes the concept of distance -- and the concept of intervening space. How do you defend against someone who can literally appear anywhere -- without having to pass through any of your armies, any of your city walls, etc.? Can you defend your entire nation? I don't see how.

One limited counter to Teleport is Forbiddance. It keeps out anyone of the wrong alignment, and it prevents planar travel into the area (60-ft cube/level) -- and it's permanent. It doesn't keep people from teleporting right next to your fortress, but it's a start.

Dimensional Anchor can ruin a hit-and-run teleporter's day -- but what are the odds you have someone with a Dimensional Anchor ready when the magic commandos arrive? And is it worth anything if you don't have a locally superior force?  Perhaps you can teleport into (or near) the enemy camp, draw out their Champions, Dimensionally Anchor them, then move on to your real objective.

So we fill our Mountain Citadel with Forbiddance, and we Unhallow it with something useful -- perhaps Invisibility Purge to detect spies, or Resist Elements to take away some favorite commando attacks.  Then we Unhallow everything near our Mountain Citadel with Dimensional Anchor, so teleporting commandos get stuck fighting it out (or flying away).

Anyway, those are some of the issues with teleporting. I haven't even touched on scrying.


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## mmadsen

*Re: Standard High-Level Magic vs. High-Level Magic Tactics*



> So we fill our Mountain Citadel with Forbiddance, and we Unhallow it with something useful -- perhaps Invisibility Purge to detect spies, or Resist Elements to take away some favorite commando attacks.  Then we Unhallow everything near our Mountain Citadel with Dimensional Anchor, so teleporting commandos get stuck fighting it out (or flying away).



As smetzger pointed out, "Magically secure your fortress from teleport. But leave some holes in the defense with some nasty traps."  

I enjoyed Crowe9107's follow-up: "The Chinese have a proverb that is something to the effect that a man with one illness is in better health than a man in perfect health. What it means is that a man with minor health problems is more health conscious, and takes better care of himself than a man who thinks everything is fine."

If we leave no openings, the Valloreans will find one, and we won't know where.  If we leave a false opening, we can funnel them into a trap.


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## mmadsen

If we compare forces, our 100,000 scrubs are no match for the Valloreans 350,000 professional soldiers -- particularly since this is D&D, and 8th-level Fighters _crush_ 1st- and 2nd-level Warriors and Commoners.

On the other hand, our Champions (including Wang-Liang, Giants, etc.) seem comparable to their Champions.  Further, our specialists (Vampires, Lycanthrope) seem comparable to their specialists -- except that their specialists specialize in killing ours.

Then there's the fact that the Vallorean forces teem with high-level Clerics and Paladins.  They can quickly recover from injury, disease, and poison.

It seems that we need to draw their Champions away, ideally kill them, but more realistically wipe out their mid-level Clerics and anti-Vampire specialists.  Without them, the legions are vulnerable. Ideally we'd also take out all their means of seeing our invisible (and illusioned) soldiers. Then we can take them apart at our leisure.


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## mmadsen

> Make a epic level dispelling spell with a large area of effect only for low levels spells... to disable these magical communication helmets, magical waterskins, and magical MRE (food ration) packs... i think they don't expect to bring along more food and water...



They seem quite vulnerable to Mordenkainen's Disjunction.  Granted, 9th-level spells aren't cheap, but the magic items they take out don't come back the next day; they're even less cheap.


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## Nifft

*Ingredients:*

1) Several sets of Ring Gates

2) Several very high level mages with two levels of Arcane Archer (looks like elves & half-elves only -- any evil half-elves? drow? satanic fire elves?)

3) Several _very_ high-flying mounted troops


*Recipe:*

High-flyers take one Ring Gate ring each, leaving the others in the hands of the Arcane Archers.

Flyers go _very_ high above the army of do-gooders, then signal to Archers to begin, then turn their Gate Rings pointing straight down.

Arcane Archers imbue very nasty area-effect spells into arrows and shoot through their half of the Ring Gates, and repeat for several rounds.

When the flyers see the spells starting to take effect, they signal the Archer/Magi again, and turn their Rings to face themselves.

The Magi each reaches through his or her Ring, and casts Teleport on him/herself & the flyer (& the mount). They all teleport to The Heavily Guarded Featherfall Room(tm).

By the time the Valorians figure out where all those Wails of the Banshee, Cloudkills, Horrid Wiltings and Meteor Swarms are coming from, your guys are already home.

Now put on some Necklaces of Adaptation, render your arrows immune to fire (somehow), and do it again from orbit.

 -- Nifft


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## dave_o

*What is this...this magic you speak of?*

Admittedly, I know as much about spells in DnD as Anna Nicole Smith about creating quality television, but it seems to me most people are forgetting the traditional, mundane tactics (albiet a bit magically enhanced) for wild, manicial plans. While this makes for a cool game, it's akin to that scene in Indy: Temple of Doom where he calmly shoots the crazy swordsman.

Namely, pretty things die easily.

Some thoughts to consider:

*As I recall, there's an Earth to Mud, Stone or Mud, or some other such spell (it's sad how little I know about DnD magic). Given the fact that hundreds of people, and even worse, stocked for war weigh just a bit, a well placed Earth to Mud sort of spell could be very decisive. Especially after a well placed area effect spell.

*With the considerable amount of manpower available, digging massive amounts of pitfalls isn't a very difficult task. Aided by magical Darkness, and such, skilled men could dig thousands of pitfalls throughout the field of battle. There could even be magically enchanted against detection. Suddenly, most of the force is moving very, very slowly and carefully. And suddenly, you've got all manner of hell raining upon them.

*Fashionable Hats.


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## DDK

Have you ever played Myth (I think this scenario was in Myth II)? There's a scenario where all you have is a bunch of dwarves and you have to "keep" a hill. It was the single most satisfying experience of any game I've ever had after all my strategies for keeping the hill worked. So... I'd use dwarves!


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## mmadsen

An example of an ambush, combining the ideas of CRG and SHARK (as described by SHARK):

Dire Tigers or Dire Bears can make quite an impact on that scouting cavalry patrol, or a small foraging party, not to mention a infantry unit on the march. One or two such animals may not seem like much, but imagine an ambush where you have two dozen Dire Tigers and two dozen Dire Bears, supported by archers that have been hiding previously in a line of fortified, camoflauged Portable Holes, that all rise up and smash into the marching line of legionnaires, attacking with great ferocity and determination, and fighting to the death! With a spell or item of Nondetection, the archers and the Dire Tigers and Dire Bears, will avoid any kind of evil or undead detection spells that the Valloreans are sure to saturate the area in front of them as they march, searching for ambushes. With this kind of ambush, it remains practically undetectable, and invisible--until it's too late.


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## willpax

I believe the previous thread mentioned something in general about trying to take out the communications mages, but here is tweak of two existing plans: 

Using scry to find the lower level comm specialists, try to mount several raids whose purpose is to dominate the communicators, then hide that fact. After you have several different units with your "moles" in place, you can spring several false alarms about attacks together with real ones. At the very least, the champions will have to take time to figure out where the real problems are; at best, they spread themselves thinly, improving the odds that the real raid will succeed. 

After feeding false information, have the sorcs go crazy on people, hopefully taking a few out while they get themselves killed; they won't be trusted after one false report, and better to have them down than have some cleric dispel our domination.


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## mmadsen

How we want to arm our Giants depends, I suppose, on what we expect them to face. Going by previous posts about the Vallorean legions, a typical soldier is 7th level, 54 hp, AC 19, Atk +8, 1d6+2.

With his Huge Greatsword, a typical Fire Giant does 2d8+15, averaging 24 points of damage per hit. If we want to Cleave legionaries, we want to bump that up to 54 points per hit. 

A Flaming (+1), Unholy (+2), Human-Bane (+2) sword with the required +1 Enhancement Bonus is +6-equivalent (72,000 gp), and does 2d8+15+1d6+2d6+2d6+2+1, or 2d8+5d6+18 damage, averaging 47 points per hit. Against AC 19, I guess our Fire Giants can Power Attack aggressively.  Even a Fire Giant with no class levels has +20 to-hit.

If we give the Fire Giants red-hot "cannon" balls to throw (analogous to sling bullets vs. stones), we can enchant 50 of those at a time, making them +1, Unholy, Human-Bane weapons. They already do 2d6 fire damage. That's 50,000 gp for the lot, and 2d6+10+2d6+2d6+2d6+2 damage, or 8d6+12 damage, averaging 40 points. 

Or we can enchant the "cannon" balls with Distance and Spell Storing.  With Stink Cloud stored in them, they become tear-gas grenades.

I envision the Fire Giants carrying chainmail satchels of hot coals and "cannon" balls.


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## mmadsen

*Re: What is this...this magic you speak of?*



> Given the fact that hundreds of people, and even worse, stocked for war weigh just a bit, a well placed Earth to Mud sort of spell could be very decisive. Especially after a well placed area effect spell.



There are many, many things we could do to the mundane forces of the legions _if they didn't have epic-level Champions protecting them_.  We have to find a way to deal with those extremely powerful Champions and the lesser specialists who can hunt down our Vampires.


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## Sarellion

I don´t know how much of this would work. They have a 12lvl wizard and cleric in every squad. 

Vampire Spwan is out the question. As someone in the original thread said: If I am undead or outsider the Valloreans have my number. 

Don´t forget the Legion Standards:

The Legion Standard is a mighty artifact of unimaginable power. The High Priests of the Vallorean Pantheon have access to ancient Greater Rituals that can make these awesome weapons. The great weapon is crafted to a pike-like weapon that is some 10 feet long. The standard is tipped with a silver eagle, inlaid with onyx. The eagle is finely detailed, and has the ability to bite. From behind the back of the eagle, a forged part of the shaft rises higher, and is formed into a formidable spear-point that extends eighteen inches beyond the top of the eagle head. A crossbeam rests at the feet of the eagle, where two white metallic wolf-heads are carved. The wolf-heads are life-like, with intelligent eyes. The weapon strikes normally as a Halberd, as the wolf-heads bite in combat. From beneath the wolf-heads, there are feet that hold onto the dark blue banner, which is trimmed in black and silver. The banner is embroidered with runes inscribed in Ancient Vallorean. The Legion Standards are made so that there is only one per Legion. Some of the Legion Standards were created over two thousand years ago, by the valiant priests of the Valloreans who beseeched the Vallorean gods for aid in their struggle against the forces of Darkness. The Vallorean gods heard the cry of their people, and the Vallorean gods sent divine servants into the midst of the Vallorean people, so as to help them in the design and forging of such awesome weapons. The Divine Servants mixed into the creation process elements of the gods’ blood, which had all been mixed together from each of the deities. The Legion Standards blazed with runes of gleaming fire, like that of a star. The runes are inscribed in the language of Ancient Vallorean, and the standards themselves are sentient, animated, and terrible in their wrath. The Legion Standards envelop the standard bearer with a fine mist of blood when the horns of war are sounded.

The standard bearers are specially selected, trained, and anointed for their position. The standard bearer must undergo an ancient ritual where the standard is attuned to them. Such Standard Bearers are specially bonded with the Legion Standard, and undergo extensive training, as well as a series of rituals that make the wielder fit to be in the presence of such a holy artifact. Others may use the standard, but its powers may not all be accessible, as the Legion Standard desires. 

The Legion Standards were each blessed by the gods of the Vallorean Pantheon, and are of unimaginable power. Attacking the form of the standard with physical and magical attacks that reduce the Standard’s hit points causes the Standard to fall into inertia and a form of hibernation. As an artifact, such action cannot destroy the item, but reduces it greatly in power. The Standard—each of which has its own name—must be healed, and consecrated again in a special ceremony that “reawakens” the Standard, and heals it to full strength again. The Legion Standard has the following special properties that can be invoked by the Legion Standard itself, should it desire to do so, or upon command by the attuned wielder.

The Legion Standard has all of the physical and magical properties of a Divine Planetar. The divine Planetar has been bound up within the mystical creation of the terrifying Legion Standard. 


 HD: 66d8+848 hit points. (1484 hit-points)
AC: 38 (-1 size/+21 Natural/+8 DEX)
Abilities:
STR: 35 (+12)
DEX: 28 (+08)
CON: 28 (+08)
INT: 30 (+10)
WIS: 30 (+10)
CHA: 30 (+10)

The artifact is quite intelligent, and capable of all such forms of communication as speech, and Telepathy. The Legion Standard has access to all such knowledge skills that it has inherently. Additional powers include:

(1) Wielder has free use of Evasion
(2) Wielder has free use of Uncanny Dodge
(3) Wielder has free use of Improved Initiative
(4) Wielder has free use of Blind-Fight
(5) True Seeing at will
(6) Telekinesis; (250-lb. Maximum; 1 minute each use.) 2/day
(7) Globe of Invulnerability 1/day
(8) Sunburst; (Heightened to 9th level; DC 29 2/day
(9) Special Purpose: Defend the servants of the Vallorean Pantheon
(10) Special Purpose Power: +4 Luck bonus on all saving throws; +4 Deflection bonus to AC; Provides Spell Resistance 30 to the wielder
The Legion Standard can Read languages, and Read Magic, in addition to Speech and Telepathy. 

INT: 30 (+10)
WIS: 30 (+10)
CHA: 30 (+10)
EGO: 110

(1) +10
(2) Holy Power
(3) Lawful Power
(4) Dread: Evil Outsiders
(5) Dread: Undead
(6) Fiery Blast

The item usually fights in the form of a Halberd, but in close combat, as a Free Action, the Legion Standard can change form to that of a Great Axe. The standard can switch forms as desired by the wielder. In Great Axe form, however, the various Army Spells cannot be so invoked, for the standard bearer is not then visible to the rest of his fellow legionnaires.

The Legion Standard provides the following Army Spells, and additional properties to the attuned Standard Bearer, as appropriate.

Sunburst 7/Day
Sunbeam 7/Day
Shield of Law: All allies within range of sight; 7/Day
Righteous Might: All allies within range of sight; 7/Day
Protection from Spells: All allies within range of sight; 7/Day
Protection from Arrows: All allies within range of sight; 7/Day
Mirror Image: 7/Day
Mass Haste: All allies within range of sight; 7/Day
Mass Heal: All allies within range of sight; 7/Day
Magic Circle Against Evil: 7/Day
Invisibility To Undead: 7/Day
Holy Aura: 7/Day
Glyph of Warding: 7/Day
Freedom of Movement: Wielder only; Constant
Forbiddance: 7/Day
Fog Cloud: 1200-Feet Radius; 800 Feet High; At Will
Flame Strike: 7/Day
Fire Storm: 7/Day
Emotion: All creatures within range of sight, as appropriate; 7/Day
Divine Favor: All allies within range of sight; 7/Day
Dispel Evil: 7/Day
Detect Evil: Constant; At Will.
Daylight: 1200-Feet Radius; 7/Day

All such spells are invoked at a minimum of 20th level in ability, as appropriate.
These properties are in addition to those inherent within the Planetar-standard, who can cast inherent spells, as well as all allotted Cleric spells.


If these are placed good enough they could see most of the legions all the time.


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## mmadsen

> Don´t forget the Legion Standards:



It's hard to forget the Legion Standards.  Frankly, my advice is to figure out where they are and _do not go there_.  Others suggested teleporting a stream of magma or a chunk of solid rock just above each standard's location.  That might work.


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## mmadsen

Rain of Fire, at DC 50, should kill most ground troops. It hits a two-mile radius, doing 1 hp/round (for 20 hours). How long does it take ground troops to run two miles? Twelve minutes? That's 120 rounds -- and thus 120 hp damage.  And the survivors have probably left behind equipment and supplies.

If we have multiple epic spellcasters, we can probably hit them with a Rain of Fire and a Rain of Acid at the same time, doing 2 hp/round, and getting around resistance to just fire or just acid.

I'm not sure how we defend ourselves against the same thing.  A Rain of Holy Water would sting.

Anyway, if the troops manage to stay together and progress in any one direction, we can just hit the area in front of them with another Rain of Fire.  If they disperse in multiple different directions, that's when we mop them up with our "cavalry" -- teleported-in Fire Giants.


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## Sarellion

@mmadsen

Some days before I have been on a hill and had a vision range for more than 10 miles. As I have read about the standards and their range to line of sight I thought Holy Crap. The planetars in the standards are able to cast weather control and some of the squad wizards could memorize it.  At least the Assault Forces isn´t composed of Storm Giants. If the Valloreans can control the weather the whole legion is assured of the benefits of the standards and clear weather. I think it is really important for both sides to get hold of the weather. I thought it odd that in the old thread, people assumed that the Mallenar forces would get weather control uncontested. 

Rain of Fire/Acid: The question is, what could a cleric/ wizard of 12th level do to get his people out of the way. Probably the legions would be scattered by using some form of escape or protection. I don´t have the ELH. Are there some possible means  to dispel the Rain?


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## Crowe9107

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> It's hard to forget the Legion Standards.  Frankly, my advice is to figure out where they are and do not go there.  Others suggested teleporting a stream of magma or a chunk of solid rock just above each standard's location.  That might work. *




I was thinking a heightened Imprison might do the trick.

Re,

Carl Rowe


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## sword-dancer

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> How useful is disease against an army full of high-level Clerics, Paladins, and assorted Half-Celestials?  (Notice that Half-Celestials are immune to disease, get +4 Fort vs. poison, can neutralize poison at 5th level, and can remove disease at 7th level.)
> 
> We've already established that the Valloreans carry magical MRE (Meals, Ready-to-Eat) packs and waterskins. *





I´m so dumb, I should cry.
The legionaries have theit MMREs, but what is with the animals?
The beasts of burden need, the warhorses, the Griphons, dogs...
need food and water and thats a damn lots of it
If they don`t have MMREs then a large part of the supply train will transport food.
And No you can`t feed horses with gras and expect that they do work, they will broke down very fast.

OTOH an army needs much more supply than food, especially when  laying a siege.
Without tools, resupplying lost equipment, spell components...



> How useful is disease against an army full of high-level Clerics, Paladins, and assorted Half-Celestials?  (Notice that Half-Celestials are immune to disease, get +4 Fort vs. poison, can neutralize poison at 5th level, and can remove disease at 7th level.)



And if we have a plague run in the VF, would these spells send the cured fit for duty in an instant?
Magiocal healing doesn`t prevent reinfection in the next round.
If the clerics get infected, are they able to cast their spells?

SHARK

I´ve the following questions

1 How many beasts of burden and wagons has every legion
2 How many cav had the army?
3 How did the Quartermaster corps supply the army?
4 Are the main bulk of the legionarries old scholl legionairres, or have you wartime trainerd legionairries, maybe the training had taken a few shortcuts needed?
5 How long the the fortress must be hold till the siege should through reinforcements broken?
6 Which denicens of ... would be best asked/bargained as allies, so could be easily summoned, seeing a few dozen hundreds of balors and mariliths with retinue massacre themselves through the legions and the champions
7 Had n`t the fortress battle standards of its own equll to the valnorreans


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## mmadsen

> I was thinking a heightened Imprison might do the trick.



If you want to run up to the Legion Standard and cast a touch spell on it -- Imprisonment's range is "touch" -- go right ahead, Carl.  We'll be right behind you.


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## mmadsen

> Some days before I have been on a hill and had a vision range for more than 10 miles. As I have read about the standards and their range to line of sight I thought Holy Crap.




Yeah, it looks pretty bad:


> Shield of Law: All allies within range of sight; 7/Day
> Righteous Might: All allies within range of sight; 7/Day
> Protection from Spells: All allies within range of sight; 7/Day
> Protection from Arrows: All allies within range of sight; 7/Day
> Emotion: All creatures within range of sight, as appropriate; 7/Day
> Divine Favor: All allies within range of sight; 7/Day



In particular, note that Shield of Law not only grants +4 AC, +4 Saves, SR 25 vs. chaotic spells (and spells cast by chaotic creatures), but it blocks possession and mental influence.  I guess we can forget that Vampire dominance...  

(Oh, and it Slows any attacker who hits a warded creature.  That strikes me as a bit odd...)

I guess we have to find a way to take out the standards first.  Sigh.


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## Crowe9107

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> If you want to run up to the Legion Standard and cast a touch spell on it -- Imprisonment's range is "touch" -- go right ahead, Carl.  We'll be right behind you.  *




Azurukin would, but I'd have to miracle the imprison  And the imprisonment is for the wielder, not the talking electrified chicken stick.

Re,

Carl W. Rowe


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## Tiefling

You have a wizard travel to the capital of the Vallorean Empire. You have him find an abandoned building, and inside it you have him build a permanent Teleportation Circle that goes to your fortress. You have him go through it, then build another Circle that goes somewhere else in that same building. Once he's finished, you have the 100,000 humans run through, slaughter the entire city, and continue to destroy everything else until things start to turn against them. Then you have them run back to the building and teleport back. Be prepared to deal with anyone who follows

If you can do this in every major city, the coordination needed to supply the advancing Vallorean army with food will be lost, and they will be forced to retreat.

Additionally, you should send some agents to investigate how in HELL the country can supply food for 350,000 troops in the first place, along with horses, servants, and camp followers.


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## dave_o

*!*

I can't believe I forgot about this!

Two words: Baby Armor.

Moreover, entire war-trains, animals, and batallions all shielded by the tasty, fleshy goodness.


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## DM with a vengence

Looking at the above, I think that there is only one course of action the defenders could take.

Gather their forces can charge the Vallorean front lines like the British at the Somme, screaming their new battlecry of "_Hastur Hastur Hastur!_"

But then the Valloreans are probably able to kill Hastur anyway.   .

The fort will fall, and in a matter of hours.


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## Leopold

or they could have maximized charm spells cast on the villagers and send the villagers ahead dressed as soliders (the front ranks)..now watch the villagers get attacked by the valloreans and watch the sheer shock as they mow down the innocence and lose their holy goodness!!!


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## mmadsen

> You have a wizard travel to the capital of the Vallorean Empire. You have him find an abandoned building, and inside it you have him build a permanent Teleportation Circle that goes to your fortress.



Presumably the Valloreans have cast Forbiddance and Hallow throughout their cities and strongholds -- just as we've cast Forbiddance and Unhallow within our Mountain Citadel.

We can't teleport directly into their territory, and they can't teleport directly into ours -- but we can each teleport within striking distance of one another.


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## Nifft

We need to know a bit more about the Valloreans.

Okay, so thier cities are protected. What about thier farms? Our undead army doesn't need to eat -- but thier city dwellers sure do! Even if thier army is immune to starvation, we may be able to starve thier citizens. 300 or so vampires could be teleported into their farming communities and could kill everyone with any farming know-how, create vampire spawn from their bodies, set the spawn to burn the crops when they awaken, and teleport home in a single night.

They have some nifty custom artifacts on thier side. What artifacts do we have? Anything with a wide-angle Anti-Magic Field?

Nobody Expects the Spawnish Inquisition: we can turn thier Rangers against them. First, have some vampires Dominate some of our average citizens. If we get lucky, one will know about the resistance and be able to tell us who to look for. If not, have these citizens try (earnestly!) to get into the resistances, then betray thier leaders. We publically turn the leaders into new vampires. Voila -- new ranger-vampires with intimate knowlege of the Vallorean's plans, and no more chance for a resistance.

Do we know any friendly monster races? A couple hundred beholders or illithids would come as quite a surprise to the undead hunters.

 -- Nifft


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## Ace

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *Rain of Fire, at DC 50, should kill most ground troops. It hits a two-mile radius, doing 1 hp/round (for 20 hours). How long does it take ground troops to run two miles? Twelve minutes? That's 120 rounds -- and thus 120 hp damage.  And the survivors have probably left behind equipment and supplies.
> 
> If we have multiple epic spellcasters, we can probably hit them with a Rain of Fire and a Rain of Acid at the same time, doing 2 hp/round, and getting around resistance to just fire or just acid.
> 
> I'm not sure how we defend ourselves against the same thing.  A Rain of Holy Water would sting.
> 
> Anyway, if the troops manage to stay together and progress in any one direction, we can just hit the area in front of them with another Rain of Fire.  If they disperse in multiple different directions, that's when we mop them up with our "cavalry" -- teleported-in Fire Giants. *




How about a rain of Disjunction instead? I don't have the epic level handbook but if you can make such an effect I would use that . 

Than I would follow up with a rain of fire and acid than with a level draining rain or whatever you would call it. 

First you would destroy a lot of magical gear especially the logistic support and communications stuff

Then you would at least weaken and maybe kill and turn into undead many of the Vallorean troops.

Destroying the undead and healing the living troops should deplete a lot of the resources the Valloreans had.

Aftewords you can use hit and run raids or whatever else works. 

Now as I understand this it is a now win scenario, THe Valooreans are basically unbeatable and the enemy has no chance to win or even take the fight home to the Valloreans. 

Since that seems to be the case after I hurt the Vallorean legion a bit I would use my World Hop and Destroy Trace spells and move everyone and everything to another world where there aren't _Legions_  full of eigth level characters


----------



## Tiefling

They have Forbiddance and Hallow spells throughout the whole city?

In that case I advise the army and their vampire king to move to a low-magic world, where armies don't have to spend years puzzling out how they could use magic to do this, but then how the enemy could use magic to prevent it, but then how the army could use magic to prevent them from preventing it, but how the enemy could do that to them, over and over and over.


----------



## sword-dancer

Nifft said:
			
		

> *We need to know a bit more about the Valloreans.
> 
> Okay, so thier cities are protected. What about thier farms? Our undead army doesn't need to eat -- but thier city dwellers sure do! Even if thier army is immune to starvation, we may be able to starve thier citizens. 300 or so vampires could be teleported into their farming communities and could kill everyone with any farming know-how, create vampire spawn from their bodies, set the spawn to burn the crops when they awaken, and teleport home in a single night.
> 
> 
> Do we know any friendly monster races? A couple hundred beholders or illithids would come as quite a surprise to the undead hunters.
> 
> -- Nifft *



Going from my informations of the VE an invasion at their homebase would be meet wit othe valnorrean legions, Rangers and Clerics/Magic users.


----------



## mmadsen

> In that case I advise the army and their vampire king to move to a low-magic world, where armies don't have to spend years puzzling out how they could use magic to do this, but then how the enemy could use magic to prevent it, but then how the army could use magic to prevent them from preventing it, but how the enemy could do that to them, over and over and over.



That's basically the point of this conversation, Tiefling -- to figure out how high-magic would play out on a grand scale.  That's what SHARK's world is like.

Frankly, I agree; it's almost impossible to work out what would really happen.  I suspect that if you described modern technology -- but not how it's used on the battlefield -- to a Roman general, he'd have no idea how modern wars play out.

Anyway, even in a much lower-magic world, we'd want to figure out what we might do _and_ what they might do to counter it.  If you only look at the cool tricks you can come up with, you'll get a rude awakening when you find out the hard way what the other side came up with.


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## Zenon

What the bad guys need to do is play catch-up a little. We need something like this to offset those Standards.

(Apologies to SHARK for blatently ripping off and re-writing the Legion Standard with an evil bent, and for the rules-laywers, this is only a quick re-write, feel free to poke holes in rule mistakes in it  ):

The Apocalypse Standards

The Apocalypse Standards are mighty evil artifacts of unimaginable power. Created in the last age by a mythical Demi-Lich (who has since rumored to have ascended to godhood) to combat the Legion Standards given to the Vallorean Legions by their Pantheon. Like the Valloreans, the Demi-Lich had access to the ancient Greater Rituals used to create these terrible weapons. This horrible weapon is crafted in a mockery of its Vallorean counterpart, and is shaped like an impaling spike that is some 10 feet long, and is tipped with a silver human figure, inlaid with onyx. The human figure is finely detailed and is that of a nude Vallorean male, bound with ropes of ebony thorns which pierce its silver flesh. The head of the figure is thrown back in a perpetual scream. From the throat of the figure, the wail of doomed souls continually emanates. From the top of the figure, a shaft of Force energy, formed of ebon darkness, rises higher and is formed into a cruel barbed spear-point that extends eighteen inches beyond the top of the human figures head. A crossbeam runs through the bound arms of the figure behind its back. At the feet of the figure, two crouching Imps leer upwards. The Imps are life-like, with intelligent eyes. The weapon strikes normally as a Halberd, and the Imps tails animate and strike in combat. The feet of the Imps hold onto the blood red banner, which is trimmed in black and gold. The banner is embroidered with runes inscribed in Abbysal. One Apocalypse Standard was created to oppose each Legion Standard made. Some of the Apocalypse Standards were created over two thousand years ago, by the malignant evil that pevades the land. When the priests of the Valloreans who beseeched the Vallorean gods for aid in their struggle against the forces of Darkness, and Forces of Darkness acted to counter them. The Gods of Darkness heard the cry of their people, and they sent their minions into the midst of their people, so as to help them in the design and forging of these terrible weapons. The Forces of Darkness mixed into the creation process elements of their gods’ blood, which had all been mixed together from each of the evil deities. The Apocalypse Standards blazed with runes of eternal darkness, a darkness so deep it drinks in all light, swallowing it without a trace. The runes are inscribed in Abbysal, and the standards themselves are sentient, animated, and cruel beyond measure. The Apocalypse Standards envelop the standard bearer with a drifting ropy tendrils of darkness and fog when the horns of war are sounded.

The standard bearers are specially selected, trained, and anointed for their position. The standard bearer must undergo an ancient ritual where the standard is attuned to them. Such Standard Bearers are specially bonded with the Apocalypse Standard, and undergo extensive training, as well as a series of rituals that ensure that the wielder fit to wield such an unholy artifact. Others may use the standard, but its powers may not all be accessible, as the Apocalypse Standard desires. 

The Apocalypse Standards were each blessed by the Dark Gods, and are of unimaginable power. Attacking the form of the standard with physical and magical attacks that reduce the Standard’s hit points causes the Standard to fall into inertia and a form of hibernation. As an artifact, such action cannot destroy the item, but reduces it greatly in power. The Standard—each of which has its own name—must be healed, and defiled anew in a special, vile ceremony that “reawakens” the Standard, and heals it to full strength again. The Apocalypse Standard has the following special properties that can be invoked by the Standard itself, should it desire to do so, or upon command by the attuned wielder.

The Apocalypse Standard has all of the physical and magical properties of an Maximum Advanced Balor. The Balor has been bound up within the twisted creation of the terrifying Apocalypse Standard.


HD: 39d8+234 hit points. (546 hit-points)
AC: 38 (-1 size/+20 Natural/+0 DEX)
Abilities:
STR: 33 (+12)
DEX: 11 (+0)
CON: 23 (+06)
INT: 20 (+5)
WIS: 20 (+5)
CHA: 16 (+3)

The artifact is quite intelligent, and capable of all such forms of communication as speech, and Telepathy. The Apocalypse Standard has access to all such knowledge skills that it has inherently. Additional powers include:

(1) Wielder has free use of Evasion
(2) Wielder has free use of Uncanny Dodge
(3) Wielder has free use of Improved Initiative
(4) Wielder has free use of Blind-Fight
(5) True Seeing at will
(6) Telekinesis; (250-lb. Maximum; 1 minute each use.) 2/day
(7) Globe of Invulnerability 1/day
(8) The Abyssal Runes act as Symbol(any); (Heightened to 9th level; DC 29 2/day)
(9) Special Purpose: Defend the servants of Evil
(10) Special Purpose Power: +4 Luck bonus on all saving throws; +4 Deflection bonus to AC; Provides Spell Resistance 28 to the wielder
The Apocalypse Standard can Read languages, and Read Magic, in addition to Speech and Telepathy. 

INT: 20 (+5)
WIS: 20 (+5)
CHA: 16 (+3)
EGO: 56

(1) +10
(2) Unholy Power
(3) Chaotic Power
(4) Dread: Good Outsiders
(5) Dread: Lawful
(6) Icy Blast

The item usually fights in the form of a Halberd, but in close combat, as a Free Action, the Apocalypse Standard can change form to that of a Scythe. The standard can switch forms as desired by the wielder. In Scythe form, however, the various Army Spells cannot be so invoked, for the standard bearer is not then visible to the rest of his allies.

The Apocalypse Standard provides the following Army Spells, and additional properties to the attuned Standard Bearer, as appropriate.

Symbol(any) 7/Day
Power Word Kill 7/Day
Stoneskin: All allies within range of sight; 7/Day
Empowered Bull Strength: All allies within range of sight; 7/Day
Protection from Spells: All allies within range of sight; 7/Day
Protection from Arrows: All allies within range of sight; 7/Day
Mirror Image: 7/Day
Mass Haste: All allies within range of sight; 7/Day
Mass Heal: All allies within range of sight; 7/Day
Magic Circle Against Good: 7/Day
Antilife Shell: 7/Day
Unholy Aura: 7/Day
Glyph of Warding: 7/Day
Freedom of Movement: Wielder only; Constant
Forbiddance: 7/Day
Fog Cloud: 1200-Feet Radius; 800 Feet High; At Will
Flame Strike (Energy Substitution-Cold): 7/Day
Ice Storm: 7/Day
Emotion: All creatures within range of sight, as appropriate; 7/Day
Divine Favor: All allies within range of sight; 7/Day
Dispel Good: 7/Day
Detect Good: Constant; At Will.
Deeper Darkness: 1200-Feet Radius; 7/Day

All such spells are invoked at a minimum of 20th level in ability, as appropriate.
These properties are in addition to those inherent within the Balor-standard, who can cast inherent spells and spell-like abilities.


----------



## mmadsen

> How about a rain of Disjunction instead?



Good idea, but that seems like a very, very powerful effect compared to 1hp/round (Ref negates).

It does remind me of Monte Cook's free Black Rain adventure though:

_When the dreaded black rain falls, all those who revere deities or rely on them for power and protection cringe in fear. The black rain forms a wall between the mortal and the divine and thus, when it falls, clerics lose all ability to cast spells and work miracles. Only the foulest of villains would use this opportunity to strike against the near-helpless clerics of an otherwise powerful temple._ 

Perhaps we can come up with an epic spell that separates the holy Vallorean army from its divine guidance.


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## ashockney

*Wow*

Ok, this is the coolest thread ever.   I've often thought of what our modern "advanced" tech world would be like in an "advanced" magic world.  I agree with the whole setup, and think it's cool as hell, and would kill to help or participate in it!

Ok, having said all that, here's some recommendations:

First, taking drawing from the US army's modern-day challenges, I think the issues here are very similar.  Our Mallenar forces are outgunned, outmanned, and pinned in a corner.  Judging from the breakdown, thus far we have very few advantages, among them, they include:  the element of home territory, the element of deeper supplies/reserves, the element of surprise (to a lesser extent), and it would appear that our "specialists" have the upper hand in brute strength (giants, ogres, etc.) and versatility (werewolves, vampires, and Wang-Liang).  Elements that are up in the air include: the weather, other environmental factors, arcane magic, and magic items.  I'm unclear and would be interested in more information on any of these areas for further exploration as a means to enhance our chances.

On the weaknesses side they have an extremely potent "leadership" (the PC's), we are definitely outnumbered, their rank and file make ours look like a joke, their specialists are dedicated to eliminating ours, and they clearly have the upper hand in divine magic. 

So, if you assume these things to be true, then I would suggest going the following direction:

1) Home-field advantage:  I believe this is the primary advantage of our forces...we must choose when and where to fight.  Without this, we are certainly cleric fodder.  Under all circumstances, we must seek to outgun the opposing force (you really won't be able to outnumber them) and leverage the strength of our specialists.  Examples of this include, ambushes from range in the dark, in forests, using surprise, leveraging magic (particularly) arcane, and loading down these strike forces with as much magical items, as well as undead or summoned support, as can easily be made available.  The key will be to get in as much damage as possible and get as many of our forces out alive.  Another example would be to hold a HIGHLY defensible position with powerful weapons and specialists (anti-magic and brute strength - such as cannon-ball throwing giants, I love that idea).  We will have to use cover, conealment, and magical defense as much as possible for this to have an impact.
2) Misdirection: We seem to have a great deal of specialist forces with the ability to offer differing degrees of misdirection.  The Wang-Liang, Vampires, and Werewolves through summoning, skills, and spells can keep the opposing forces guessing.  I think this will have to be leveraged extensively to keep the opposing forces moving in the direction WE want them to.  We must walk them down the path of GREATEST resistance, and they've got to THINK they're making the right choices all along the way.  The primary disadvantage to this tactic will be the specialist forces of our opponents.  I think pre-emptive strikes on the Vallorean's "rangers" and "communications" might also be worthwhile targets for our specialist forces to aid in the efforts of misdirection.  A significant hit in any of these areas could greatly enhance our chances for success.  
3) Supplies:  I assume we have to get some kind of advantage for our supplies being local.  As a result, we must attack their resources.  If the food is coming magically, what can we do or create to screw with their magical food creation!  I would also argue that a powerful enough disease infestation could have a significant impact to their forces, particularly if it costs us little resources to inflict the attack, and it costs them significant resources to defend against the attack (both in time and spell use).  I agree we must definitely attack their supply lines in any other way possible to slow, hinder, or impede the "whole" army's progress, or we will always be outnumbered and outgunned.  Magic items can be overcome, and it sounds to me like their entire armies rations are dependent upon this magical supply, we could conceivably do more damage to the army by marshalling our entire resources to attacking their food supply instead of  trying to attack them directly.
4) Efficiency: Sacrificial mission anyone?  There were jokes above about landing a one-shot imprisonment...but, what would stop a high level rogue from getting that touch spell off of a scroll (16th - 20th level) and potentially taking out one of the opponent's primary leaders (the PC's - lvl 30+).  Also see other no-save, you're dead spells like Harm, Power Word, Otto's and so on, that rogues could use.  I think this would be worth it, in spades.  Plus, take out anything else he can get while he's there!  What if a strike forces successfully got a kill at night while sleeping, and the PC Leader was replaced by a disguised high-level Wang-Liang (30th), who could get access to the party, and take out as many of the high-level spellcasters as possible with surprise.  I think the same types of missions would have to be run at lower levels.  Sending sacrificial Hobgoblins or Undead into the heart of the attack force with a handful of "necklace of missiles"  or forcebombs to drop.  Any exchange where we have one 4th level smutz or undead taking out 3 or more 8th level guys is a good exchange in our book.  How about some low-level arcane trigger spells that detonate fireballs, lightning bolts, and the like when a low level putz is killed (or destroyed by turning).
5) Allies:  In all seriousness, we are massively outgunned here.  I don't think it would be uncalled for to have a little "tactical" surprise for the PC's in the form of some "really bad-ass" EPIC spell effects (ie, nuclear or bio-chem effects) or unforseen allies (ie, drow, beholder, illithid, dragons...all of the above) that might make the combat otherwise a little more intriguing.

How we'll definitely lose:
1) Fighting any war in the open field.
2) Fighting in any kind of "fair" fight.
3) Their specialists outhink our specialists and beat ours.
4) Their leaders use magic to get past our defenses first and use their powerful spells and abilities to clear the path for their army to advance (rinse and repeat).
5) Victory conditions change and the Valloreans are willing to take significant losses in order to finalize this mission.  Most of the above assumes that the Valloreans will give up far sooner than we will because they are an "invading force" and can't afford to do enough damage to their army that they would  jeopardize their homeland defense.  We can't be the only enemy in the world, can we?

Good luck!


----------



## mmadsen

*Re: Wow*



> Ok, this is the coolest thread ever.



I'm glad you like it, ashockney.  Have you read the original thread?  It may provide some more background if you're really interested.

Hopefully SHARK will come up for air soon, so he can share more thoughts with us.


> Home-field advantage:  I believe this is the primary advantage of our forces...we must choose when and where to fight.



What makes this situation a bit odd is that the things that make for a good ambush against mundane forces aren't much of an issue against the epic-level Champions of Vallorea.  We can lead the legions straight into a muddy ravine with enfilading fire from dug-in archers on either side, and it still doesn't matter much.  The Champions are the real threat.  What do we do to set _them_ up?


> Misdirection: We seem to have a great deal of specialist forces with the ability to offer differing degrees of misdirection.  The Wang-Liang, Vampires, and Werewolves through summoning, skills, and spells can keep the opposing forces guessing.



Since the Valloreans have sentries who can see through most illusions, we need to use these powers in a way that overwhelms the rank-and-file troops.  As I've said before, an ambush by invisible troops shows up on "radar".  We need to use our invisibility and illusions cleverly.  Suggestions?


> Supplies:  I assume we have to get some kind of advantage for our supplies being local.



In the absence of logistic magic, certainly, but we need a way to take out the Vallorean MRE packs before that becomes a meaningful advantage.


> Efficiency: Sacrificial mission anyone?  There were jokes above about landing a one-shot imprisonment...but, what would stop a high level rogue from getting that touch spell off of a scroll (16th - 20th level) and potentially taking out one of the opponent's primary leaders (the PC's - lvl 30+).



What would you use to keep out Rogues and Assassins?  Forbiddance?  Magical sentries?  Force Walls?

The Valloreans should have some measures in place -- and we should have similar measures!  We know the Champions are coming for us!


> Sending sacrificial Hobgoblins or Undead into the heart of the attack force with a handful of "necklace of missiles"  or forcebombs to drop.  Any exchange where we have one 4th level smutz or undead taking out 3 or more 8th level guys is a good exchange in our book.



Hobgoblins may have excellent morale, but I don't see them volunteering for certain death.  Undead on the other hand...


----------



## ashockney

*Tactical Examples*

Ok, it's clear from your "pointing" you're looking for more explicit tactical maneuvers to illustrate the strategy.  Here are a few thoughts:

I agree the true threat is the Vallorean Champions.  Therefore, I would take the battle to them, early and often.  Keep them reeling, and force them to use/replenish their resources.  I'm still not sure how much "rope" I've got to come up with random stuff, from what books, using what prestige classes, and using what magic items (and what level of magic items).  So, I'm just going to start throwing some stuff out there.

Attack ethereally.  Use this and scrying to get close to "stage" the battle.  If their defenses are really strong, they'll have a chance to avoid the "surprise" effect, but not prevent the assault.  Depending on how many of the champions we can catch at one time, we either bring a fairly large force (say 50+) or, I would much prefer to take groups of 5 - 10 into attacks on individual champions (who are separated) with a simultaneous strike.  I would go in with Rogues supported by powerful warriors, with support from sorc/wiz. For example (2 x 20th level rogue, supported by 6 x20th level giant and ogre fighters, and 2 x Wiz/Sor).  For the rogues, take Shadowdancer to use Hide in Plain Sight ability, enhance this with items (cloak/boots) and spells (wieldskill) to get this bonus ridiculously high (hopefully out of range for all the champions except the rogues).  Rogues should also be prepared to use high-level magic items and spells off scrolls.  Also use spells and abilities like "brilliant energy" or "touch attacks" against the warriors.  These will make quick work of warrior-types without the high AC or spell support.  Against arcane spellcasters, surround and conquer.  Any well   With surprise, they will make short work of the opponent.  For equipped band of 20th level warriors, supported by some mordenkainen's or Greater Dispellings should be able to hack their way through any defenses put up.  For your fighter ogre/giants maximize their damage potential, and the capacity to overcome defenses easily (without magic) using things like blind fighting, power attack, wf/ws, +5 weapons, unholy, chaotic, etc.  When fighting champion clerics, it's all about spell casters.  Drop bombs on them from as far away as possible, they shouldn't have any reflexes to speak of, and typically can't hang with their hit points.  The key being to wipe them out overwhelming and blowing through their hit points quickly.  Greater Dispellings will also go a long way against divine casters.  Also note that the dispellings in ANY assault will also force the champions to spend more of their precious resources "reloading" particularly the "all-day" buffs they have available to them.  Against other rogues, hit 'em hard with no save and/or fort save spells.  All it takes are one or two of these to connect and finish the job.  

If you get the element of surprise, have your supporting sorcerers t-port them into the room surrounding the champions.  This positioning is critical, particularly against the spellcasters.  You've got to try and stop them from getting spells off if possible by forcing high damage concentration checks.  

Critical to the success of this hit-and-run tactic, are contingency effects that get you THE HELL out of there the second things start to look bad.  If you lose these strike forces, you are in BIG trouble.  The point is to get in, do the damage, and get the hell out!  Literally one, or two rounds at the MOST.

How would I stop the opponent from doing this to me?  Prismatic anything, as big as you can make it!  As many minions and summoned monsters as possible (particularly tanarri) who can stand guard in the ethereal plane, and warn of this.  Heavy use of divination spells such as Foresight, to get as much warning possible.  More importantly, this is YOUR home turf!   IF someone is dumb enough to come find you, I'd let them in...and BLOW THEM AWAY.  SURROUND YOURSELF with UNDEAD (x200) and CONSTRUCTS(x50) and Illithids(x20) with heavily laden traps and triggers and hung spells, using spells that "hang" spells in a set location, and Contingency/Chain Contingency and Simbul's Spell Sequencers, and Limited Wish/Wish/Miracle and Symbols and Greater Glyphs of Warding to trigger magic effects with saves (Slay Living), without saves (Harm and Reverse Gravity and Power Words), all this plus tons of "triggered" and permanent  Prismatic Walls, Prismatic Spheres, Illusionary Wall, Otiluke's Dispelling Shields, plus Anti-magic shells, dead magic zones, and Walls of Force.  Bring it on!!!  

Another note, about a gaping hole in the high level core rules.  Many of the good defensive location spells are ok, but there is significant room for improvement on spells like:  Guards and Wards, Forbiddance, and anything that would prevent ethereal travel into a keep.  I've got a couple of such spells if interested...

Taking out the Vallorean MRE packets...Epic Dispelling/Negation/Disjunction spells.  Doesn't have to be a super-high level effect.  Simply negates spells and abilities in a huge area of say 1st or 2nd level.  I assume we're talking "create food and water" here.  Hell, I think I could justify a 5th/6th level spell that permenantly negated the magic of a "1st level" device (potion, +1 sword, MRE pack) with a successful Dispelling check.  Now you're talking 6 - 8 shots of this spell coming from mid-level sorcerers. Strike forces of undead who use Rods of Negation or Negation spells to assault in "waves" and take out communication or MRE packs.  Again, travel ethereal or t'port there.  Get one shot off, then go gaseous and get out.  As they begin to react, the next two waves strike, from different, and opposing directions.  Keep them moving, and keep them guessing.  Enough strikes against the MRE's, particularly with minimal losses to your forces, and you've just given yourself significant advantage over your opponent!

Muddy valley???  You're thinking too modern day combat.  We are dug into the trenches beneath the forest floor, using magic to pass attacks and move through the ground (burrow, gaseous, ethereal, incorpreal).  If you want to fight us, come invade the "tombs of horrors" we've established beneath the forest.  It is full of natural traps, deadfalls, and loaded with defensive spells!  Humans are the opposing force?  How about some BIG BARS on the other side of BIG DOORS that allows are big OGRES and GIANTS to trap small bands of humans, then pound them with cannon and arrow fire, or cave it in, or fill it with poison gas, or drown them.  True sight doesn't see through walls or the ground!  Another note on true-sight, straight out of the PH, this works up to 120 feet.  That means invisibility works JUST FINE until you get REALLY, REALLY close in combat terms.  Not melee, but certainly within range of full attack actions with missile weapons and cannon fire.  So, I picture misdirection as using illusions and darkness and mist to reduce visibility, taking it down to true sight or nothing...get underneath them, then burrow, move earth, reverse gravity, blink, pop in-and-out.

Here's another example:  you get a few hundred  hobgoblin/human grunts close with invisibility or illusion (such as hallucinatory terrain) and stock them up with potions of true strike, "Greater Magic Weapon" Crossbow Bolts, and Heavy Crossbow.  Get your infiltrators (undead, werewolves, wang-liang) in close using t-port, disguise, or ethereal travel, then use them to drop Obscuring Mist and Faerie Fire simultaneously "highlighting" who to target for your hobgoblins.  The infiltrators then turn their attention on the "standard bearers" or MRE packs.  The hobgoblins start raining auto hits for 1d10+5 points of damage a piece down on the unsuspecting forces (from 180' away)x200 or more.  Take another potion the next round and do it again.  The hobgoblins begin a retreat, while others begin to summoned monsters and ice storms (no save, and most undead and half-fiends will resist).  Finally, on your way out, use enchantment/charm spells to get rid of those damn standards!  Spells like Otto's, Dominate, Greater Command "Drop", and Greater Command "Throw" can give you a chance to drop it in a portable hole and get out.  In the span of about three to five rounds, with minimal (or hopefully no) losses to your forces, you could deal a heavy blow to an advance group of the Vallorean army.  All of a sudden,  I really like our chances in the followup battle, particularly if it's on OUR terms, in a location of our choosing and preparation.  

Let me know if this is the kind of thing you're looking for!


----------



## Tiefling

This is D&D. No matter how ingenious the tactic, there's always some way to counter it.


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## The Iron Mark

ashockney, go post up those spells of yours! Oh, here's a last ditch effort if Evil is a really sore loser.....

Black Hole
Conjuration (Creation)
Spellcraft DC: 0
Components: V, S,
Casting Time: 1 full round
Range: 0 ft.
Duration: 20 hours
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
To Develop: 0 gp; 0 days; 0 XP. Seed: conjure (DC 21) Factor: reduce casting time to one round (+18 DC). Mitigating factor: 39d6 backlash (-39 DC)

This spell creates a black hole: a zero-dementional singularity with a force of gravity that even light cannot escape. It immediately sucks in and destroys anything within 20,000 miles (i.e. the planet the caster is standing on) with no save or SR, as this is simply the effects of a conjured item. Even the atmosphere of the planet is consumed. The gravity of the black hole collapses anything pulled into it into a volume smaller than an electron. After 20 hours, the black hole dissapears and the planet is irrevocably gone. The caster takes 39d6 damage from casting the spell, but that dosen't matter because the caster will be sucked into the black hole along with everything else on the planet.

Nothing like the world being destroyed to spice up your life eh?


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## mmadsen

> Black Hole
> To Develop: 0 gp; 0 days; 0 XP. Seed: conjure (DC 21) Factor: reduce casting time to one round (+18 DC). Mitigating factor: 39d6 backlash (-39 DC)



I don't think I'd let an unmodified DC-21 Conjure Seed summon the nigh-infinite mass of a black hole just because it might fit within the 20' radius...


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## mmadsen

*Re: Tactical Examples*



> Keep them reeling, and force them to use/replenish their resources.



What resources in D&D are easy to deplete?  Just about everything comes back the next day if you've got high-level spellcasters.  Diseases, negative levels, hit-point damage, curses, and the spells used up to fix them, they're all extremely temporary problems.

So what resources can we actually deplete?  In SHARK's world, the dead stay dead (or use up Fate Points to pull through), so injuring enemy soldiers isn't much help, but finishing them off is.  Also, the Valloreans rely heavily on magic items.  Destroying those powerful and expensive items (or burying them under lava) certainly hurts them and helps us.  Using up wand charges, scrolls, and potions might be worth something, but I have to wonder.  Any one skirmish probably only uses up one or two charges of a wand's 50.


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## mmadsen

*Re: Tactical Examples*



> Attack ethereally.



How is this better than teleporting in?


> Depending on how many of the champions we can catch at one time, we either bring a fairly large force (say 50+) or, I would much prefer to take groups of 5 - 10 into attacks on individual champions (who are separated) with a simultaneous strike.



Heck, why not send a large force against an individual champion?


> For the rogues, take Shadowdancer to use Hide in Plain Sight ability, enhance this with items (cloak/boots) and spells (wieldskill) to get this bonus ridiculously high (hopefully out of range for all the champions except the rogues).



A level or two of Assassin wouldn't hurt either.  I doubt any Champion of Vallorea is going to fail a DC-12 Fort Save against Death Attack though.

(By the way, shouldn't an Assassin's spell list include True Strike?  OK, maybe not at 1st-level, but it should be on their list, shouldn't it?)


> Rogues should also be prepared to use high-level magic items and spells off scrolls.



Is that the best use of their abilities (and their money)?  Or should they be delivering multiple 10d6 Sneak Attacks?


> Also use spells and abilities like "brilliant energy" or "touch attacks" against the warriors.



Ideally we'd hit the Fighters with attacks against something other than Hit Points -- Ability Drain, Energy Drain, etc.  Against 200 Hit Points, even multiple 10d6 attacks aren't lethal.


> Against other rogues, hit 'em hard with no save and/or fort save spells.  All it takes are one or two of these to connect and finish the job.



If you ambush their Rogues, they're not necessarily invisible and hidden!  A Rogue in the open dies.  


> Critical to the success of this hit-and-run tactic, are contingency effects that get you THE HELL out of there the second things start to look bad.



Very true.  In fact, if surprise gives you one free round per assault, why ever stick around much past that?


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## mmadsen

*Re: Tactical Examples*



> Muddy valley???  You're thinking too modern day combat.



That was my point.  Well, not modern but non-magical.  All the things that matter so much in the real world and that would matter against the mundane elements of the Legions wouldn't mean much at all against the magical Champions.


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## ashockney

*New Spell*

Here's an example that I sent in to R&R2, but doesn't appear to have been "accepted" according to the spoiler Nightfall posted:

Lomar’s Sanctuary.  Divination and magical effects protect an area.
<2>Hallowed Ground, Holy Ground
<n>Divination 
Level: Clr 9
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Personal 
Effect: One structure, room, or area with a maximum size no greater than a 10 foot radius/level sphere
Duration: 1 week/level or Discharge
Saving Throw: None 
Spell Resistance: No
<3>Allows the caster to keep an area safe through divination and protective spells.
<n>Lomar was a powerful cleric, who stood for noble ideals.  He made many enemies throughout his lifetime, including some that fought him from beyond the grave.  In order to protect himself, and his followers, Lomar developed this spell.  Lomar, the High Justicar of Corean, used this spell to protect his temple, particularly when danger was near.  Enemies of Corean fear this spell, and although many have tried, no person has ever beaten this powerful divinatory magic.  Lomar took great joy in appearing rapidly from one protected location to another when attempts were made on his life, or his church.
<3>A cleric casting this spell will commune with their deity to ask for help in protecting an area.  Upon the spell’s culmination, magical spirits will fly out from the body of the caster in all directions.  Each spirit representing a part of the diety’s portfolio of divinity.  These spirits will fly around in ever-larger circular patterns, regardless of the barriers.  Once they reach the extent of the area to be affected by this spell.  The spirits will settle at the relevant entry points, where they will pose as vigilant guardians to the sacred ground, then disappear from sight.  Lomar’s sanctuary is undetectable, once cast, except by use of magical means such as detect magic or true sight. 
<n>This spell grants the caster complete knowledge about a building, structure, room, or location.  The area to be protected, must be able to be fit completely into the area of effect for the spell.  In addition, the area protected must have clear separation from the areas that surround it.  It should be obvious where one area, building, or room begins, and the next ends.  For example, if an open graveyard, located behind a temple were to be protected by Lomar’s sanctuary, it would have to be fenced in, or would have to be marked with clearly visible signs, from all directions, at the point one was entering the graveyard.  Once this spell is cast, the caster is granted a spiritual connection with the area protected.  Any attempt to enter the protected area by a creature that is evil-aligned, undead, construct, magical beast, dragon, or outsider will alert the caster.  No form of protection prevents detection by this spell, including travelling invisibly, ethereally or in gaseous form.  The caster will be provided information on the number, type, means, and actions of each creature that attempts to affect the protected area.  The caster becomes aware of this information, as simply as if watching it with their own eyes, and can choose to react, even if asleep or on another plane, with full awareness of the creature(s).  Lomar’s sanctuary can also be ended prematurely in order to initiate one of three magical effects on the creature(s) that have entered the protected area.  These spell effects are greater dispel magic (area, targeted, or counterspell type), word of recall, or holy word.  Each of these spells is cast at the present level of the caster.  When triggered the greater dispel magic and holy word spells may be targeted anywhere the caster desires, within the area protected, regardless of the caster’s present range from the protected area.  The word of recall spell can be triggered to affect the caster (and those around her at the time), to return anywhere within the area of effect of Lomar’s sanctuary.  Discharging the spell to obtain one of these three spell effects is a standard action.  Lomar’s sanctuary will not be foiled by other abjuration spells such as non-detection, anti-magic shell, prismatic sphere, or globe of invulnerability.  
Material Components: A 4,500 gold piece crystal sphere, which must be carried at all times by the caster for this spell to function properly.


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## ashockney

*Why not send 50 against one champion?*

I was using the stats you gave to try and divide up our "existing" forces into strike forces that could work together.  Basically I figured about 50 of the "high level" guys could be part of the 50 man strike force and that you could siphon off groups of the mid and low level guys into big groups.  

You certainly could challenge one champion with 50 high level guys, but my guess is that they woudl figure out that tactic quick, and stop splitting up, and now you're in trouble (with them together).  Instead, do a simultaneous strike against 5 different champions at the same time with around 10 high level baddies on each individual champion.  

Also, most of those defensive spells won't do much good against a good old'fashioned earthquake/avalanche/rockslide/mudslide.  Take them out en masse.


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## SHARK

Greetings!

I'm up for air now! LOL! Gosh, I'm glad to be back! I've been missing some cool discussion! Ok--what kind of questions are there?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## mmadsen

> Gosh, I'm glad to be back! I've been missing some cool discussion! Ok--what kind of questions are there?



What's the right answer?

OK, OK, more seriously, what ideas here fit your campaign?  Do you really want the Dark Lord to wipe out the Legions with a few Rain of Fire spells in a row?  Would you allow a Black Rain spell that cuts off the Valloreans from Divine Aid?  Do you allow Shadow Dancers?  Do you want to see what happens when summoned Shadows wipe out an entire camp (or city) in minutes?


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## SHARK

Greetings!

Black Rain Spells? Eh...nice thought, but why couldn't they come up with the same thing then? I don't think that the Valloreans are going to be "cut off" from their divine aid any more than the forces of Darkness are! I like the thought though!

Rain of Fire? Sure. The Valloreans use them also!

As for Shadow Dancers, yeah, I allow them. Vallorean cities are all fortified, and have various arsenals of enchantments. Shadows aren't going to get anywhere near them, sad to say.

As has been mentioned, the Vallorean forces are armed to the teeth against undead and demons. They have been fighting against undead and demons for ten years now, straight, in a vast war. They know what time it is! In the early phases of the war, when the forces of Darkness invaded Vallorea, their undead forces were terribly successful. Hundreds of thousands of people were slaughtered, or turned into undead and werewolves. The Valloreans took a while to build themselves up, as they worked to contain the invasion by gradually strangling its advance. Once that happened, the forces of Vallorea then went over to the offensive, and they were prepared. They have never let up since, as they have begun to harness the power of the empire in bringing doom to the forces of Darkness. 

However, at the point of attack here, they are at the fringe. Though difficult, a sharp reminder of where they are can be made! The aren't in Kansas anymore!

I think that the creative use of spells, and the use of teleporting giants and raiders, as well as hordes of natural animals, can be very effective. It isn't as glamorous, true--but it obviates so much of the Vallorean power, and brings the fight down to an essential struggle between warriors using steel and teeth.

Though outnumbered, that does seem to be an achievement that adds a psoitive dimension to the battle for the forces of darkness, now doesn't it?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## Isawa Sideshow

Maybe I've missed it in the posts somehwere, but exactly _why_ are we trying to defend this fort against this overwhelming good-aligned enemy force, whose only goal is to wipe us evil abominations off the face of the earth?

Being the evil overlord in this case, there's only one real strategy that works.

Before the Valloreans arrive:

1) Round up enough humans from the cities to serve the vampires as cattle. _Dominate/charm_ the cattle as needed.

2) Put the rest to the sword, raze the cities, and salt the ground. 2 less areas to defend, and the Valloreans aren't going to get any use out of them anyway. Besides, there's a chance that the peasants would have turned against us.

3) Inform the 24 Lords and the Wang-Liang leaders that they are in charge of the actual tactics once the battle begins. I plan on being as far away from the battlefield as possible, as do my 12 elite advisors. Encourage them to use guerilla tactics; I want them to take 2 Valloreans for each of our troops lost.

4) Take a couple hundred human soldiers, and have the vampires _dominate_ them. Infect them with some sort of plague, and order them to defect to the Vallorean's side. Make sure to wipe their minds of any knowledge of our actual numbers. By the time the Valloreans have taken them in, the plague should have reached full virulence.

Once the battle begins:

5) My 12 advisors and I will retreat to a specially prepared refuge hundreds of miles from the actual battle, set up plenty of wards, and scry on the battle from afar. I expect most of our forces to be obliterated; these are acceptable losses. They will easily weaken the Vallorean forces to a point where Lord Mallenar can deal with them.

What, you thought I was actually going to put myself at risk, or do the actual clean-up work? I'm _evil_, remember?

6) Hatch a way to slay Mallenar while the battle rages.

7) After Mallenar returns and cleans up the remaining Valloreans, return from my refuge and kill him, claiming his title. Then have my 12 advisors put to the sword; if they'd betray Mallenar, they'll also betray me, and I can't have that.


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## Nifft

How are the Legions traveling? How long will they be on the road, and how much of that time will be on our turf?

How do the Vallorian cities eat? How are their food supplies defended / warded? (If we can't poison the troops or invade the cities, can we at least poison the cities?)

Are they all set to deal with Outsiders, or only Evil Outsiders? (I'm thinking of Gating in some Slaadi here...)

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, what are the Heros up to? Are they together or separated? How do they respond to simultaneous calls for help -- would they split up?

Do "Teleport Redirectors" exist in your world? (Could we 'port in somewhere, lay down a Redirector pointed to an ambush, and get a couple of Heros into it?)

 -- Nifft


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## Maldur

im so sorry, but I goofed up.
I said I would make a writeup for the ogre-military academy in the stronghold. I did start it but after doing something really stupid with my computer, It dissapeared. Ill hope Ill find the time to rewrite it, but I did lose some other , more important, files as well so they take a higher priority.

The basic idea was this:
After reading SHARKs article on his version of the ogre and watching enemy at the gate, I came up with a academy of ogres being trained in breaking sieges and opening up breaches in fortifications. They have a small , old, caslte several miles west of the main hold where they live and practise their combat skills.
To train and control these ogres they have a cadre of human(oid) trainers. basically these trainers are commisars, using retoric and propaganda to brainwash the ogres into excelling in the crafts of the siege. So basically the academy provides a group ( 2500+ ) ogres fanaticaly loyal to the overlord, surrounded by these "drillsergeants" from hell.

These cadets can be used to hold or storm fortifications in the warzone. Are fanaticaly loyal, so will fight to the death. Controlled by strategicaly and tacticaly sound "advisors".

No much in a strait fight with the legions, but when able to defend a cliff, or open the gates of a legionbase ( and I presume valadarions do make those at the end of the day). The y could be usefull.

And I just love the images they create

So once again sorry,  and I hope I can salvage a more eleborate story, but I doubt it.


----------



## chilibean

Have any of you looked at the range, AoE, and effects of the spell "Reality Maelstrom".  I think it's either 7th or 8th level arcane spell.

That spell alone makes any massing of troops wothless.  Unless they can plane shift back enmasse that is ....


----------



## Maldur

SHARK, do you want your party to :

Win easily?
Win difficultly?
Win  extremely difficultly?
Lose?
Lose spectaculary?
Win or Lose based on their plans and dicerolls?


----------



## SHARK

Greetings!

Maldur my friend! I would want the party to win based on their plans and die rolls. If they lose--they lose. That is just the way things go, you know? I mean, it's not like they don't have the resources of the most powerful empire in the Western world to help them, after all! Where else would they have an opportunity to command 350,000 of the Vallorean Empire's ferocious Legions in a fight to achieve a major battlefield and strategic victory? 

Victory in this campaign will eliminate the Kingdom of Galleran's southernmost province, reduce their trade and wealth, and eliminate some substantial military forces of the enemy. In addition, potent magical and natural resources will be thus siezed in hand, and there will also be political ramifications.

The political ramifications are that the Kingdom of Galleran will be reduced in its political resources--foreign kingdoms to the south will cease sending mercenaries, and instead, they will begin to increase trade and grant political concessions to a victorious Vallorean Empire.

Of course, a victory here will be strategic for Vallorea, but a defeat for Vallorea will, while not decisive, will be serious in and of itself. The Valloreans would have to be very careful of their next campaign, and they would have more diplomatic problems with southern kingdoms continuing to help the Kingdom of Galleran.

How's that?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


----------



## mmadsen

> Rain of Fire? Sure. The Valloreans use them also!



Ah, but we have a stone roof over _our_ heads!  (There go our two cities though -- and any fire-vulnerable forces who went out without asbestos umbrellas.)


----------



## Maldur

SHARK,  I was just wondering this as I never ran a high level campaign, and I have no idea how much influence epic characters can have on the history of a world ( wotc still hasn't delivered ELH in the Netherlands, so I have no help from that either). 

Isn't it really hard to plan the future history of your world, when you let actions of characters influence it all? How can you plan any long term effents that way? Your world scope must be enourmous. 

What do you base your gamemastering on? A timeline? A geograpic description? Do you create adventures? Or do you present situations for the characters to react to? Images of things you want characters to see or get involved in?

My gamemastering is driven by images, not clever plans, so when this thread came up I was trying to picture this massive campaign. And it was very hard to get a clear picture, which was intense enough for this struggle. Now after two threads of ideas ( ranging from very nice and epic to very silly ( sorry but the flying spiders are very silly, IMHO)) I can see some scenes.

But the scale is enourmous (your legions start looking like Ceasar's 10th) A battle field/ campaign with about a million combatants in one area, the book keeping alone would be a task. Do you have a "aide du camp" when you run games ?   

Reading your and Mmadsens ideas and seeing the amount of research you guys put into creating your games, makes me feel bad. It also inspires me to increase the effort I put into my games, playing a less "off-the-cuff" game and presenting a more eleborate and complete world to my players. I really like world building, as do you it seems, but it looks like like your in the fortunate position that you can make it more of a team effort with players who assist you more when doing just that. 

Sorry if this answer turned into a more personal note, and I hope it makes sense( words always get stuck some where between my head and the paper).


----------



## mmadsen

> SHARK,  I was just wondering this as I never ran a high level campaign, and I have no idea how much influence epic characters can have on the history of a world ( wotc still hasn't delivered ELH in the Netherlands, so I have no help from that either).



I'm afraid the Epic Level Handbook won't be much help there even when you get it.


> Isn't it really hard to plan the future history of your world, when you let actions of characters influence it all?



I guess I don't see the problem.  If you're trying to tell the story of the heroes and their enemies, you plan out the bad guys' evil schemes, and you see how they play out against the good guys.


> My gamemastering is driven by images, not clever plans...



Evocative images and clever plans go well together.


> A battle field/ campaign with about a million combatants in one area, the book keeping alone would be a task.



That's what hand-waving's for.


> Reading your and Mmadsens ideas and seeing the amount of research you guys put into creating your games, makes me feel bad.



SHARK's scenario here is far grander than any scheme I'd work up on my own.  I'm happy to have a trail of a few clues, a few big fights (some easy, some hard, all interesting in some way), and a villain who finally gets his comeuppence at the end.


> I really like world building, as do you it seems...



I like to center any world-building on the heroes.  I'd rather keep most of the world vague and flexible until I need it.


----------



## mmadsen

> Vallorean cities are all fortified, and have various arsenals of enchantments. Shadows aren't going to get anywhere near them, sad to say.



So what anti-Vampire (and anti-Werewolf) defenses are common enough that we would know about them?  What would our Vampires expect if we sent them to attack a Vallorean camp at nightfall?


----------



## Maldur

Clearing parts of the forests surrounding the fortress.

Doing this has the following advantages:
Wood - the wood can be stored, and used for the following things: arrows/javelins, heating/fires/ aditional pallisades ( creating filrelanes/killzones), warmachines etc.
LOS - clearing the surrounding area, decreasing the chance for people sneaking up to the castle.
Obstacles - the stumps of the trees (particulary if hardened by fire) create obstacles for warmachines and other large objects.
entanglement - if the undergrowth is partially left behind, entangle spells can be cast. 
Traps - the stumps and undergrowth form nice places a large amount of traps can be places. Oiltraps, firegliphs tanglefoot bags, alchemistic fire, punjitraps etc, the cleared zone can be turned into a death trap. this combined with missile fire from the keep of from smaller fortifications surrounding the keep can prove very deadly.
Denial - it also denies the enemy easy to use resources close to the keep. If timber needs to be transported to the keep it buys time.

A physical assault upon the keep should be LONG and very hard for the legions. Al we need is time, if we delay them long enough the king will turn up.


----------



## SHARK

Greetings!

Posted by Maldur:
____________________________________________________
Quote:

"SHARK, I was just wondering this as I never ran a high level campaign, and I have no idea how much influence epic characters can have on the history of a world ( wotc still hasn't delivered ELH in the Netherlands, so I have no help from that either). 
____________________________________________________
End Quote.

Well, as mmadsen mentioned, the ELH doesn't really adress the subject of epic-level players influencing the campaign world. As for myself, I like the idea of players affecting the campaign world. I think that the Game Master should build in, that is to say inherently, a buffer-capacity for the players to have a significant affect upon the campaign world. Why not? If the Game Master is very rigic in controlling every little thing that the players can do and affect, then really, what does the Game Master need the players for? The Game Master is then really writing a novel, and the players are simply a dramatic distraction, wouldn't it seem?

I must say, that my players love having this kind of power, this kind of awesome ability to affect history, and the destiny of peoples and nations. Try it! Who needs a Vorpal Sword? Really, though, it can also be seen as a "story award" or form of reward, to the players, rather than mountains of treasure or some new magic item. How about an army of 100,000 soldiers to do thy will? I can allow literally mountains of treasure to fall into the party's hands--because they have an army to share it with. The pride, the prestige, the political power and leverage gained within the campaign by having the command of an army is--in itself--very influential, and intoxicating. It makes a fine reward itself. 

Posted by Maldur
____________________________________________________
Quote:

"Isn't it really hard to plan the future history of your world, when you let actions of characters influence it all? How can you plan any long term effents that way? Your world scope must be enourmous.
____________________________________________________
End Quote.

Hmmm...well, keep in mind that the rest of the "world" is doing its own thing. There is stuff going on throughout the world all the time. The players, after all, can't be everywhere! However, as to affecting large regions, again, why not? I plan future events *loosely*--as opposed to hard and fast--so that players can have an affect, if they desire to do so. If not, or if they fail, then the events that I loosely planned get more detail, and become a part of the new reality. Indeed, my world scope is enormous! I have a world that is the size of Jupiter!

Posted by Maldur
____________________________________________________
Quote: 

"What do you base your gamemastering on? A timeline? A geograpic description? Do you create adventures? Or do you present situations for the characters to react to? Images of things you want characters to see or get involved in?

My gamemastering is driven by images, not clever plans, so when this thread came up I was trying to picture this massive campaign. And it was very hard to get a clear picture, which was intense enough for this struggle. Now after two threads of ideas ( ranging from very nice and epic to very silly ( sorry but the flying spiders are very silly, IMHO)) I can see some scenes.

But the scale is enourmous (your legions start looking like Ceasar's 10th) A battle field/ campaign with about a million combatants in one area, the book keeping alone would be a task. Do you have a "aide du camp" when you run games ?" 
____________________________________________________
End Quote.

It's kinda funny that you mention it Maldur, because, as mmadsen wrote, it is both. It is both vivid images, and clever plans! Mmadsen is very good at grasping my thoughts on the matter. He and I tend to think along very similar lines of thought! It's great! You see, Maldur, I tend to plan what I must--the essentials of something, or a framework--whatever is absolutely necessary. The rest, I like to "image" or just run with the "imaging film" in my head, and the detail provided by that process, combined with the player's actions and responses, will dictate what else needs to be precisely detailed, if that makes any sense. Does it? The image of a vast plain filled with rank upon rank of legionnaires, all waiting for the orders to march is breathtaking! The players look out on the ranks of troops, the groups of heavy cavalry, the ranks of engineers, wagons filled with the tools of war, the clusters of Vallorean priests, their chanting and holy oaths carving glowing runes within the very air as the clouds run to gather and do their bidding; the horses are calm...the war dogs chomp and bark with excitement; the Vallorean wizards sweep through the vast formations, their hands waving through the cool air, casting forth their spells upon the host in readiness for battle; Prayers are uttered forth as they loudly echo across the plain for all to hear; as one, the soldiers kneel in prayer; finally, the banners are raised high, the trumpets have sounded readiness; several tribunes and generals approach the players--who are in command--and ask, "My lords, do we march?" With a swift command, the generals proceed. With fifes, and a long, roaring drumroll that breaks into a cadence, the legions rise, form up, and begin the march to the horizon.

The legions will march into Hell itself if they are commanded to do so. They march with utter trust and devotion in Vallorea, and in their commanders. The legionnaires know that they shall be victorious. Why? Because in 2,000 years, the Vallorean Empire has lost many battles, but has never lost a war.

The legions march onward, the dust swirling about them as the columns of troops stretch out, the lines of horsemen galloping here and there, and the dogs capering about. Overhead, a group of summoned Giant Eagles, patrons to the Legions, fly over them, watching for enemies.

Posted by Maldur
____________________________________________________
Quote:

"Reading your and Mmadsens ideas and seeing the amount of research you guys put into creating your games, makes me feel bad. It also inspires me to increase the effort I put into my games, playing a less "off-the-cuff" game and presenting a more eleborate and complete world to my players. I really like world building, as do you it seems, but it looks like like your in the fortunate position that you can make it more of a team effort with players who assist you more when doing just that. 

Sorry if this answer turned into a more personal note, and I hope it makes sense( words always get stuck some where between my head and the paper)."
____________________________________________________
End Quote.

I do hope it inspires you Maldur! Remember, though, it is *both* clever plans, and bold, vivid images! I say let your images go! Run wild with the images, and let the players join them! Let the players help create additional images, and worry about the details as you go! Let your campaign be big enough to hold your visions! I can understand your reticence for doing this--but really, it frees the game up into really being a vehicle of wondrous imagination! 

My own players are chomping at the bit with the prospect of leading vast armies in desperate battle! The fate of cities, of peoples, of nations, teeter and stagger by their actions, by their decisions! How much greater a reward can there be? Indeed, the players are feverish in their own plans and strategies for carrying out such an epic battle in the campaign! It's going to blend enormous battle between huge armies across a blasted, hellish battlefield, mixed with desperate, clandestine raids behind enemy lines, with deep assaults into dark, terrifying dungeons! They know they are going to face undead, demons, ferocious soldiers, and horrible monsters from the gibbering darkness!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


----------



## Maldur

Thx mmadsen and SHARK for your replies.
I had a bit of the sunday mornin blues, combined with a small bit of jealousy  
As I said I love world building, but I find it very hard to get anyone to think with me stuff like that. I cant always ask my players ( for obvious reasons), besides they are not really into stuff like that. I discovered that brainstorming on ideas really helps me figuring things out for my homebrew.

Luckily Im starting getting the hang of writing stuff down in a way other people know what im talking about  (thinking fast and writing/typing slow is a bad combination).

OH Im definately inspired


----------



## mmadsen

> If the Game Master is very rigic in controlling every little thing that the players can do and affect, then really, what does the Game Master need the players for? The Game Master is then really writing a novel, and the players are simply a dramatic distraction, wouldn't it seem?



I get the feeling many Game Masters really would rather be writing a novel; they just need the built-in audience provided by their gaming group.


> I must say, that my players love having this kind of power, this kind of awesome ability to affect history, and the destiny of peoples and nations. Try it! Who needs a Vorpal Sword?



You make a really good point.  Unfortunately, it's not nearly as easy to fit a kingdom and armies into your game as it is to fit a magic sword and bigger, tougher monsters.

D&D needs some good Birthright-esque rules for kingdoms and armies.  In particular, it needs a good way to fit heroes and their enemies into dramatic battles between larger armies.


> It is both vivid images, and clever plans!



Take a vivid image (Rain of Fire) and follow its consequences.  What does this do to our grand land war?  Can we no longer concentrate our forces?  Or do we concentrate them and protect them with some magical counter?  Or is there a mundane counter?  Or do both forces keep their forces spread out, then time a grand concentration in one big break-through attack?

Or take a vivid image (thousands upon thousand of quasi-Roman legionaries marching on the mountain-top citadel of the vampire lord) and figure out what could logically lead to it, and shape your game that way.


----------



## CRG

*I've missed alot it seems*

Go away for a bit and the old thread is gone baby gone!  At least this one is here now to keep the dream alive...

To recap (inside the recap)....

(1) Their specialists specialize in destroying ours - we've got undead / demons / etc. and they've got clerics, paladins, etc.  As such, I'm still in favor of focusing on non-undead-means of boosting our capabilities.  Animals, vermin, constructs, etc.   These are all things against which their mighty-special magics aren't necessarily all that great.

(2) The army standards...jeebus christmas...there aren't enough Talismans of Pure Evil to get rid of them all.  Let's leave those for another article.

(3) We're defending ... they are attacking ... granted their defences at home are formidable, but really I have to think we can make them suffer while they attack.  Sure, they may have it in for us, but we can summon 10 red dragons to go raze some of their cities...maybe not the biggest ones but enough to do some damage.

(4) And why the heck are we defending here?  Why don't we guard the heck out of the fortress but set up some 2 way for-use-by-evil-only gates.  Keep the bulk of our forces NOT IN THE FORTRESS.

(5) Back on the undead bit thing - why are we undead heavy?  I'd still like to see our big guy (maybe our biggest guy) be some sort of druid / elemental / environmental archon.  If they want to fight on our turf, lets make sure it is OUR TURF.  Maybe we can even get it to fight for us...

SHARK:  If we say that we're going to expend some amount of resources attacking supplies and teleport-raiding and razing in the Vallorean home-land, what effects will that have on the Vallorean army?  Can we count on it to in any way, shape or form change the nature of their attack?  Number of attackers?


----------



## Zenon

*Re: I've missed alot it seems*



			
				CRG said:
			
		

> *(2) The army standards...jeebus christmas...there aren't enough Talismans of Pure Evil to get rid of them all.  Let's leave those for another article.*




Yup. Thirty five of them - that's *35* - of those "mightier-that-anything-in-the-DMG" artifacts bearing down on us.

jeebus christmas indeed.



			
				CRG said:
			
		

> *SHARK: If we say that we're going to expend some amount of resources attacking supplies and teleport-raiding and razing in the Vallorean home-land, what effects will that have on the Vallorean army? Can we count on it to in any way, shape or form change the nature of their attack? Number of attackers?*




From as near as SHARKs descriptions, these guys would put their heads into a threshing machine without flinching. Somehow I don't think razing their homeland will even make them blink. They're like some sort of anti-evil automations ("And he absolutely will not stop! Ever! Until you are dead!").

I've been thinking though, can we blow up the fortress? Sucker them in, let them take it and then with a force of summoned creatures like Fire Elementals and Magmins(sp?) can we turn it into a volcano? Just a random though, anybody have an idea of feasibilty or how they might detect or counter it?


----------



## SHARK

Greetings!

MMADSEN: Hmmm...indeed! Vorpal swords and bigger monsters are probably easier to include in a campaign than kingdoms and armies. I agree--but I think developing armies, kingdoms, and so on, allows for the inclusion of a different scope for reward, victory, and defeat. You see what I'm getting at? 

Make the players broaden their view from themselves and how much gold they have. If the players have an army to feed, train, heal, and equip, it doesn't really matter if you dump a treasure of 20,000,000 GP on them, now does it? What particular magic armor they may or may not have isn't really relevant when they have to worry if the 5th Legion is coming along well in their training or not, and if they will be ready to assault the evil Dragon fortress in the spring, heh? Or, in addition, if Alpha Company's new commander is racist against Ogres or not, and how well his command style is working with the new recruits from the province of Harrgathan. These types of considerations, and their successful resolutions, will be far more meaningful and important than if they have a new suit of +4 Plate Armor, or a +7 Vorpal sword, you know? In addition, even with the idea of using bigger and tougher monsters, that aside, they may be far more worried about the rumours of the "Black Wyvern" Regiment of elite Hobgoblins, led by the famous commander, Zhinnagharn, than what a powerful, sorcerous Beholder is doing, you know? What do you think my friend?

CRG wrote:
____________________________________________________
Quote:

"SHARK: If we say that we're going to expend some amount of resources attacking supplies and teleport-raiding and razing in the Vallorean home-land, what effects will that have on the Vallorean army? Can we count on it to in any way, shape or form change the nature of their attack? Number of attackers?"
____________________________________________________
End Quote.

Well, the Vallorean Empire is enormous, and has a population of over 200,000,000 people. They have an enormous military machine, that is gearing up to integrate 5% of the population into the military, in addition to recruiting large foreign mercenary units, as well as inducting foreign immigrants at an increased level. In short, while damage could indeed be done--it would make the Valloreans bleed and suffer--the party, and the Vallorean Emperor, are likely to guess that such an attack is diversionary. The Vallorean Emperor has been known to then proceed to order additional armies to the attack area, so as to "press home the attack against a desperate, weary enemy." Thus, if a major assault against the Vallorean homeland is made, the Vallorean High Command may bring in an additional 50-200,000 troops to make the enemy pay. You might laugh, but the Vallorean Emperor is just such a personality. He might, in a fit of rage, order armies from other theaters to give up additional troops, so that they can be shipped to the attack area, because he has decided to fully exterminate every living creature in the area or something, in order to make the evil land pay for their arrogance and wickedness in attacking the pure. righteous, Vallorean Homeland. After all, the last time Galleran invaded Vallorea, the Emperor responded by invading Galleran with 150 Imperial Vallorean Legions!

So, by all means, attack the homeland! Some of the players will squirm, while others will appeal to the emperor for even more armies! It's a strategic gamble, I say, as far as what can be gained from it. It might be worthy though just as a bloody strike to bring death and terror! I doubt if it would be likely to seriously affect the armies facing your own lines, though. How's that?




Zenon wrote:
____________________________________________________
Quote:

"From as near as SHARKs descriptions, these guys would put their heads into a threshing machine without flinching. Somehow I don't think razing their homeland will even make them blink."
____________________________________________________
End Quote.

Zenon! You made me choke on my soda! Great visuals! Threshers indeed! Right on target friend, right on target! Many Vallorean Legionnaires would likely pray that the people being slaughtered back home be welcomed into the afterlife with joy, and that their sacrifice is not in vain...therefore they must speed up the attack, and exterminate the enemy in front of them all the faster, except now with even more ruthlessness! For every good, holy, righteous Vallorean killed by the wicked enemy, a price of 10 or 20 of the enemy shall be extracted...the Romans slaughtered half of the population of Carthage, enslaved the other half, and destroyed Carthage to the very ground, salting and tilling the very soil to make it a savage wasteland, where no living creature could live...such is the fate of any city in Galleran that may resist too ferociously! The Lord-General may decide to have 20 or 30 thousand Galleran humans or Hobgoblins, or Beastmen, crucified along the roads leading to and from the besieged city...The Vallorean soldiers could be expected to become even more grim, ferocious, determined, and ruthless.

Very funny Zenon! I was laughing so hard at the visual! Really great my friend! I loved that!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


----------



## Sarellion

The best solution would be to assassinate the emperor and his direct descendants. This madman is one of the most driving forces and we don´t need another like him on the throne. It is essential that one or some of the most powerful families of the empire become suspect. Perhaps they are the family with the most probable heir to the empire. Try to incite a  war of succession between them and other families or army leaders of the other legions. Inspire the legion commanders to seize the throne. Send some dream spells where the gods tell the characters that they must save the Vallorean Empire. 
The vampire kingdom can consolidate his forces. Perhaps they can prolong the throne wars by supporting some of the parties discreetly.

It sounds like that the Vallorean Empire has some more enemies other than the Gallerans. Arrange a meeting secretly and gather them to your side. If the Valloreans are nearly finished destroying themseves and unifying under a new ruler, attack in force and split this kingdom of crazy holy righteous people up between you and your allies.  

@SHARK 

How much time do we have until the new legions are ready? Are there enough standards for all the legions? 
Are there any other enemies?
How big are the Galleran forces that they dare to assault this behemoth?
Why are the Valloreans still considered lawful good? They don´t sound better than their enemy?
Could this assassination be done? There must be spies and other people in the cities of the Valloreans.


----------



## mmadsen

> Vorpal swords and bigger monsters are probably easier to include in a campaign than kingdoms and armies. I agree--but I think developing armies, kingdoms, and so on, allows for the inclusion of a different scope for reward, victory, and defeat. You see what I'm getting at?



Absolutely.  What the game needs is a set of nice guidelines for armies, kingdoms, etc.  We have some well-established guidelines for magical treasure, monster-toughness, etc.  The older Basic/Expert rules had guidelines for strongholds, gaining a noble title, etc. 


> If the players have an army to feed, train, heal, and equip, it doesn't really matter if you dump a treasure of 20,000,000 GP on them, now does it?



This would be more true if high-level characters couldn't literally take on an army and win.


> ...they may be far more worried about the rumours of the "Black Wyvern" Regiment of elite Hobgoblins, led by the famous commander, Zhinnagharn, than what a powerful, sorcerous Beholder is doing, you know?



Love it.


----------



## mmadsen

*Re: I've missed alot it seems*



> Their specialists specialize in destroying ours - we've got undead / demons / etc. and they've got clerics, paladins, etc.  As such, I'm still in favor of focusing on non-undead-means of boosting our capabilities.  Animals, vermin, constructs, etc.   These are all things against which their mighty-special magics aren't necessarily all that great.



Our Vampires can summon rats, wolves, and bats.  Any suggestions on how to use them against a Vallorean camp?  Since the Valloreans are used to Vampire attacks, what countermeasures might they have in place against Vampire-summoned animals?


> The army standards...jeebus christmas...



Well said.


> We're defending ... they are attacking ... granted their defences at home are formidable, but really I have to think we can make them suffer while they attack.



Agreed.


> Keep the bulk of our forces NOT IN THE FORTRESS.



I guess I don't see the obvious benefit.  Are we afraid of getting magically nuked?


----------



## sword-dancer

Hello SHARK



			
				SHARK said:
			
		

> *Greetings!
> 
> SHARK *






> Zenon! You made me choke on my soda! Great visuals! Threshers indeed! Right on target friend, right on target! Many Vallorean Legionnaires would likely pray that the people being slaughtered back home be welcomed into the afterlife with joy, and that their sacrifice is not in vain...therefore they must speed up the attack, and exterminate the enemy in front of them all the faster, except now with even more ruthlessness!




This is the most reasonable reaction since the attack force is to far from Valnorrea, and so the attack would be made with utter ruthless determination, equal to cost, the soldiers know that their families are in dire danger and their best possibilitie is to eradicate their base.
I give you a few examples from our history.
Battle of England, the royal home command fought with the knowledge they are the only who stops Hitler from invading England.
Add the usually idiotics of the Gröfaz and Göring, Operation Blitz, Attack of London. They hold out and "Never own so many so few"

End of WWII German submarines had through Air Attacks to many losses and so Dönitz retreat them. 
Short time later the losses of the civilians through the air bombardements go up, the planes who had searched the oceans are added to the bomber fleets, without hesitation the submarines returned to their old operation theaters.
Fully accepting their risks.

The gothic war italy after 18 years of war the ostgoths under their last hero king teja, attacked the bycantean army, after eight hours of restless fighting, teja was killed through an throwing spear the ostgoths fight till the night and send the next morning Narses a message.
Free Passage or they would fight to the last man.
Narses choose free passage.




> the Romans slaughtered half of the population of Carthage, enslaved the other half, and destroyed Carthage to the very ground, salting and tilling the very soil to make it a savage wasteland, where no living creature could live...



 Nobody had called the romans good and honorable.
Tyrannical and greed driven fits more.



			
				Sarellion said:
			
		

> *
> Why are the Valloreans still considered lawful good? They don´t sound better than their enemy?
> . *



That is a good question!
A nation who would call Simon de Monforth a welcomer ally.


> The best solution would be to assassinate the emperor and his direct descendants. This madman is one of the most driving forces and we don´t need another like him on the throne.



 What they definitely don`t need is an Martyr Empereor like King Louis the saint.
OTOH the empereor and his family will be wellprotected, so the chances of success are not worth the effort.
BTW isn`t Hal SHARKS Paladin the heir of the empire?
Under such circumstances i wouldn`t like to be one of G s commanders for all crowns of the world.


> It is essential that one or some of the most powerful families of the empire become suspect. Perhaps they are the family with the most probable heir to the empire.



To easily counterproofed through magic.



> Try to incite a  war of succession between them and other families or army leaders of the other legions. Inspire the legion commanders to seize the throne



In a time of crisis nations tend to unite, and mybe after having such dreams the army commanders would search help by clerics and scholars, or arrange meetings with each other.
And if a few speak of such dreams, 2 things will happen
1 they will see the trick and act accordingly
2 they will work to gether.


----------



## Sarellion

@sword dancer

After the last post I thought that the Valloreans are vastly superior to the Gallerans. If the emperor could be killed and some other family would seize the throne with later evidence indicating that they have killed him. It should look like that they tried to frame the Gallerans and used the opportunity. In this way the emperor would not become a martyr king. There should be confusion how and why the emperor was killed. 

One of the characters is the heir of the empire? Hm, even looks better if he survives he is in the field with his armies, who can´t leave the field but probably the other armies would unite behind him.

But you are right divination magic would solve the murder quite easily. Ask the gods, they tell you via Commune or so.


----------



## Zenon

SHARK said:
			
		

> *Very funny Zenon! I was laughing so hard at the visual! Really great my friend! I loved that!*




(takes a small bow)

I was being serious, and your response in reply to it should help clear this up for any newcomers to the thread.

The Valloreans are dedicated and determined.

Their morale is sky high and almost impossible to break. If their homeland were to totally fall, this 350,000 man army would continue to the heart of our dark empire to rip it's guts out, every man volunteering to stay and continue the fight.

If I was a bad guy (and since I'm viewing their side here) I'd be the terrified one.

We need one of two things (both of which are near impossible):

1 - Break the army. Not just give them some losses, but shatter them. We've had some really good posts on tactics so far...

2 - Win the war (yeah, I know, hard to do). This would be the biggest blow to the Valloreans that I could think of.

Can we focus on any faults of the Valloreans and use them to our advantage? One I can think of is their pride (and you know what they say about pride, it goes before the fall). Another is their zealousness. Can we get them to over-extend? Make them "see" what we want them to believe and they will because they expect it?


----------



## SHARK

Greetings!

Zenon wrote:
____________________________________________________
Quote:

"Can we focus on any faults of the Valloreans and use them to our advantage? One I can think of is their pride (and you know what they say about pride, it goes before the fall). Another is their zealousness. Can we get them to over-extend? Make them "see" what we want them to believe and they will because they expect it?" 
____________________________________________________
End Quote.

Yes to everything Zenon! Indeed, the Valloreans are very powerful--after all, they are the greatest empire in the West--and they have been successful at maintaining their empire for some two thousand years now. They have a magical standard for every legion. They have harnessed their resources for war, and they are very, very good at it. They are specially trained in the legions to love the Vallorean Empire, to believe in it, to live and die for it. This is reinforced when they suffer from death and struggle with the enemy--since Vallorea was *invaded* they have seen first hand, with their own eyes, what will happen to their families if they are not successful. Thus, that adds to their determination even more. Then, according to the Vallorean Pantheon, their religion that they have regular services with every week--the Vallorean Empire is righteous, holy, and blessed by the gods for their divine mission. Thus, their religious instruction reinforces their confidence and their zeal.

Having said all that--indeed, pride and zeal can be manipulated against them. Notice that while throughout history, they have lost battles before--they just have never lost a war. Thus, one can imagine how manipulating their pride and their zealousness could result in some significant advantages and gains--if you can craft such a scheme carefully enough!

I love it Zenon!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


----------



## Sarellion

@SHARK 

What do we know of the enemies leaders like the characters. Do they have some personal preferances in their tactics and strategy? 
Is there any dissension in the command structure (like dissatisfied officers or generals) we could use to our advantage. Perhaps some lower ranking officers have other ideas and we could use persuasion of the magical kind (if it is possible through all these spells) that their ideas would save the battle. In reality it would be used to our advantage.
What are the rules of engagement for the Vallorean Empire. Are there any flaws we could know of and exploit? 
Is there any possibility to change our tactics? Our undead troops are more of a liability than a strength. The best the vampires could do is to dominate animals and send them to battle.


----------



## Maldur

About blowing up the fortress!

We have a trapped lavaflow underneath the fortress.
Does this mean the area is vulcanic?  Can we use that to our advantage? 

What protections do the legions banners have against flying blobs of magma?


----------



## sword-dancer

Perhaps we should remember one thing.
The fortress hadn´t win a war against the VE, the ressources are cclearly not available, or Í´m to blind to see them.
They had to buy time for his vampiric kingship, and then hopefully to serve as an anvil on which the hammer of the new army smash the legions.

So one Question is important. 
How long must they hold, is it possible and maybe reasonable for the legions to block the fortress and go on?


----------



## CRG

> Keep the bulk of our forces NOT IN THE FORTRESS.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I guess I don't see the obvious benefit. Are we afraid of getting magically nuked?




That's the first step.  The second is more along the lines of the "draw them into a trap" idea.  If we're not there we can nuke it when they get near.  Can anyone say Volcano?  It would be really nice if our actual troops were stationed, say off-plane. 

"Dust off and nuke the site from orbit.  It's the only way to be sure."

I'm just thinking we need to go binary to begin with - either we ARE the land or the land is just a foothold for us.  If we ARE the land then we are druids, elemental priests or wield powerful natural magics to punish the heck out of anyone who gets within our sphere of influence.  If it is just a foothold then we exchange such barrages with the Valloreans while they march towards an end-goal of the mountain fortress which is essentially a ploy.

Related note - is Distance Distortion still in the PH?  I don't have it in front of me.  And that 2nd edition spell that let you mass-hide an army ... the illustration showed them all looking like a bunch of trees...very cool.

Another nifty twist for the PCs to deal with might be a trench complex fully "Guards and Wards"-ified.  Not much tactical strength beyond a gimick but might make a fun session for the PCs.


----------



## mmadsen

Speaking of vivid images, what are some evocative scenes or images we'd like to work into the scenario?  I'm fond of my Fire Giants with chainmail satchels of cannon balls and smoldering coals.  I also like the Rain of Fire.  

We have to do _something_ with the pool of magma -- perhaps leave an unprotected patch of castle floor, really a trap door, over it, so the attackers might teleport to their deaths.  Certainly the Fire Giants could have some fun Bull Rushing Valloreans into the lava, grappling them and holding them under, etc.  You thought being dunked in the swimming pool was bad...

I like deadly archers on Wyvern back.  Maybe we can fit three (Small) archers on one Chimera?  Manticores are ugly, but they work.  With enchanted bows, flying archers can sharp-shoot from as far as the eye can see.

I like the Midnight Legion of Vampire Spawn.  I also like the notion of Vampire crypts throughout the countryside.  Since Vampires can travel in gaseous form, their crypts don't even need real doors.  And imagine the traps!

At some point we have to swarm the Vallorean camp with rats, wolves, and bats.  I don't know how to get much mileage out of it, but we need to find a way.


----------



## Maldur

Plagues, virlent diseases, poisons.
Keep the clerics of the legions on the defensive.

the more spells they need for protecting against those things they cant pray for offensive spells, and they have less magical healing, so are less inclined to engage.

That combined with the constant fear for ambushes and traps should decrease the legions fighting potential.


----------



## mmadsen

> Plagues, virlent diseases, poisons.  Keep the clerics of the legions on the defensive.  the more spells they need for protecting against those things they cant pray for offensive spells, and they have less magical healing, so are less inclined to engage.



But _each_ squad (of 13 soldiers) has a 12th-level Cleric.  With 4+1 3rd-level spells per day, I don't see disease and poisons as much of a threat.  How is a disease ever going to hit any kind of critical mass if the first sick guy is cured immediately?  And the second?  By the next day, the Clerics have all their spells back.


----------



## Nifft

*Raw Chaos*

Could we invite some Slaadi into our homeworld -- perhaps into the middle of several of thier cities?

They're not evil, so the anti-evil wards won't work. But they're pretty damn inimical to human life...

Is there any chance of an Epic spell, Slaadi Spore (or some such similarly vile name) which spreads an airborne version of the Blue Slaad's disease ability? We'd only have to hit a few villages minor to create a distraction for the Vallorians.

If we can split up thier forces, we stand a better chance of killing some of them.

 -- Nifft


----------



## Maldur

> But each squad (of 13 soldiers) has a 12th-level Cleric. With 4+1 3rd-level spells per day, I don't see disease and poisons as much of a threat. How is a disease ever going to hit any kind of critical mass if the first sick guy is cured immediately? And the second? By the next day, the Clerics have all their spells back.




Still the first day the squads get sick. The next day clerics prayed for the right spells. So a part of the spells are not available for combat/healing spells.  Small groups raid the camp. So some legionairs die, the disease is reintroduced by the raiders. Next day the same thing. And the next....

You still deny 13 spells cast in offense or defense as they are needed to combat the virulent red pox.  Next day do the same thing with a poison. etc etc .  If your lucky raids reduce the number of clerics. Increasing the load on other squad-clerics. Decreasing combat effectiveness.

Hopefully reduced stats/ damage uses up other spellslots.


----------



## SHARK

Greetings!

Ah, that's some sharp thinking Maldur! Very good! Indeed, that may well work to overload their clerics. After all, their clerics can die in combat, too! Once their clerics are killed, or busy trying to heal diseases, they can't also be casting a bunch of defensive spells protecting the front ranks of the troops, or casting Blade Barriers and Flame Strikes against onrushing vampire-knights, now can they? Got to choose...got to choose...

In addition, Sarrellion, pulling some political coups and assassinations in the Vallorean homeland may be effective in drawing off some resources. Not necessarily forces directly available for the front, but potentially troops and resources that might have been available for reinforcements or for special operations. Some homeland sabotage and some deception campaigns designed to sow dissension, rivalry, suspicion, and so on, couldn't hurt any. It probably wouldn't cause any serious lasting effects, but combined with other types of operations, all going on at the same time, it may indeed contribute to a range of operations that can combine to create circumstances of opportunities for the forces of Galleran! Good thinking! Remember, the forces of Galleran need to harness every resource and every stratagem that they can if they are to even hope for a victory, or at least a long, hard, and costly campaign that even if the Valloreans win, that the vampire king can gather his generals, marshal his other resources, and gain some kind of strategic advantage. There are several theaters of operation here, and long-term planning involved. Every angle can be analysed and chewed on for possible benefit!

Mmadsen, I love the idea of armoured fire giants carrying fiery steel balls to throw at the party! That is great! Think of good armour, some loaded weaponry and special skills and abilities, and I am sure a team of 20, 30, 40 giants, either all fire, or mixed in with other supporting forces, carefully selected, can provide many opportunities to damage the enemy! Imagine the arrows that giants like that can fire! Let alone what they can do with a +4 Unholy/flaming burst/wounding greatsword!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


----------



## Vurt

SHARK said:
			
		

> *
> Zenon! You made me choke on my soda! Great visuals! Threshers indeed! Right on target friend, right on target! Many Vallorean Legionnaires would likely pray that the people being slaughtered back home be welcomed into the afterlife with joy, and that their sacrifice is not in vain...therefore they must speed up the attack, and exterminate the enemy in front of them all the faster, except now with even more ruthlessness! For every good, holy, righteous Vallorean killed by the wicked enemy, a price of 10 or 20 of the enemy shall be extracted...the Romans slaughtered half of the population of Carthage, enslaved the other half, and destroyed Carthage to the very ground, salting and tilling the very soil to make it a savage wasteland, where no living creature could live...such is the fate of any city in Galleran that may resist too ferociously! The Lord-General may decide to have 20 or 30 thousand Galleran humans or Hobgoblins, or Beastmen, crucified along the roads leading to and from the besieged city...The Vallorean soldiers could be expected to become even more grim, ferocious, determined, and ruthless.
> *




Oh my, it almost sounds like you're replacing one evil empire with another!  How much longer before the Valloreans BECOME their enemy?  The long, slow road to ultimate EEEEVILLLL may not be through winning the war at all, but through losing it with bloody abandon!


----------



## Sarellion

If we don´t use the land and animals we could poison it. Destroy the land where the Legions must pass through and make it a poisonous wasteland, where human life can not survive unaided. I am not sure what you could cast as protection against it. You would have to remove the poison itself. Then we could perhaps use the undead against them as they are already dead.
Cast the spell before the legions enter so they cannot dispel it as it is cast.

I think you have to use some kind of epic spell for it but the effects should not be magical by a spell. Let it rain acid, poison and disease (some lingering spores in the land and air). The atmosphere should be poisoned by the fumes from lakes of toxic fliuds and spores. Be sure to keep distance between your positions and the scorched earth. 
This should have an effect on morale. Humans are not so comfortable if they are on life support which could fail any moment.
Perhaps a rain of disjunction on the legions would be really funny. As the clerics scramble to recast whatever protections are available, an assault would be possible and most devastating.

Can you use gates to open to the elemental plane of fire to let the fire and magma of the plane come to the other side? There is nothing in the description of the spell that indicates otherwise. Open as many as you are able to over the legions. Some of them will burn to death. If they already have enough fire protection against it, try water. I think they will appreciate the drink.  

If it is possible sneak near the camp to do this 

It is sad that the gate can´t be opened as large as you wish. Otherwise you could call a whale who will fall on the troops. At least they would get some different meat.  

I am not sure if thenext idea would be possible because of the magic circle and righteous aura effect but nonetheless.
Cast an epic spell which raises the aggressiveness of the legions but against each other. They only get the worst possible meaning of what other people say. The spell should lower their morale so that they think they are doomed, their officers are crap, something like this. 
The final effect should be that they go on each others throats. 
The spell must be really difficult to detect if it is possible to cloak it somehow.
I don´t have the ELH, so I can´t design it. So I can only give some suggestions.

Put up a sign: "You have just entered hell on earth. Welcome" for flavor.


----------



## Maldur

Divert a stream from one valley to the next. One approarch will be dry ( and flammable with the help of some firegiants) the other valley will be very muddy and wet (combined with cattle carcasses disease ridden).

Undermine mountain passages, making progress through the area slow. rig traps and drop cliffs. Make the dangers diverse and varied. One day several threats, the other day nothing. Make them wary and tired. 

Use cliffs for ambushes, throw down rocks and boulders. 

Make eversmoking bottles with poisonous clouds iso regular smoke. fill caverns with the poisoned gas.

Hit the legions with ranged attacks for a while then assault up close. Do the reverse on other units.

Let mountainpasses cave in after some legions passed. cut them off.

ps All ideas to use against the legions. The heroes I dont know?
Eleborate traps and ambushes? Turning them would be the best. A known hero turned blackguard would destroy moral.


----------



## mmadsen

> Oh my, it almost sounds like you're replacing one evil empire with another!  How much longer before the Valloreans BECOME their enemy?  The long, slow road to ultimate EEEEVILLLL may not be through winning the war at all, but through losing it with bloody abandon!



I doubt SHARK'll ever see it that way, but to the rest of us, they already seem Lawful Neutral, maybe Lawful Evil -- except that they're officially Lawful Good; it's what their character sheets say!


----------



## mmadsen

> Still the first day the squads get sick.



Perhaps I'm making the mistake of mixing real-world notions of disease with a D&D game, but what disease is going to spread fast enough that Clerics will ever need to cure more than one guy per day?  An epidemic only gets to that stage by growing exponentially.  If we can get a highly-contagious disease to infect most of the Valloreans at once, we've got something.  If we can't skip straight to that stage though, they can squash it early.


----------



## Twinswords

There is a spell in masters of the wild with that effect.

Twinswords


----------



## SHARK

Greetings!

LOL!!! Well, indeed, does the Vallorean Empire appear to be Lawful Evil to many of you? Or Lawful Nuetral?

Indeed, though I enjoy sharp distinctions, and courageous, noble heroism, and the defeat of evil, there is still room for some moral ambiguity, heh?

However, it should be noted that the Vallorean Empire certainly considers itself the ultimate in Goodness and Righteousness. They claim to much of the following attributes:

(1) They zealously wage war against all evil kingdoms that they are in contact with, or have reasonable geographical access and ability to wage war against;

(2) The support the Rule of Law;

(3) They support the concept of The King's Justice for all citizens, whether they be male or female, rich or poor, native or foreign born;

(4) They have outlawed the institution and practice of private slavery;

(5) They support a capitalist economy, where anyone--regardless of race or heritage, is permitted to freely pursue lawful commerce with a minimum of Imperial taxation;

(6) The Emperor supports the independent authority and sanction of the Imperial Magisterium;

(7) Soldiers do not have the right to quarter themselves upon the population without proper authority;

(8) The military is generally volunteer; occasional conscription is employed, but in no case are people dragooned into service;

(9) The Emperor is in general support of a basic foundation of civil rights for all citizens;

(10) The Emperor must have approval of taxation rates by a majority vote of the Imperial Council and the Board of Governors;

(11) Evil religions are ferociously persecuted throughout the provinces of the Vallorean Empire;

(12) Marriage is a sanctified and honoured institution that recieves taxation benefits from the Imperial Treasury;

(13) The individual rights of the populace to govern and teach their children is not infringed;

(14) Citizens of the Vallorean Empire have the freedom of travel; they can also change occupations and such as desired;

(15) The empire supports a restrained freedom of the press; the press, such as it is, has broad grounds for investigation and commentary;

(16) Freedom of Learning: throughout the empire, scholars and professors, as well as students, are permitted to explore and study a vast range of subjects, with only occasional or specific instruction required by the Imperial Authority;

(17) In foreign policy, the Vallorean Empire seeks to gain friends where there is common cause; the empire seeks to peacefully live with its neighbors, under the provisions that they are not demonstrably evil and wicked, despite the fact that they may adhere to cultural or religious customs that the empire deems strange, harsh, or unfortunate;

(18) The empire embraces a thorough punishment for criminals; Criminals are sure to be punished severely, with victims being compensated by a zealous prosection that pursues justice;

(19) The empire discourages rebellion in all forms, instead encouraging order, law, and responsible conduct, with dignity and honour;

(20) The empire has instituted a range of social programs in cooperation with the Vallorean Churches, designed to help the impoverished masses on occasion with food, vegetables, clothing, as well as medical care, spiritual counseling and job opportunities. Poor people can often volunteer to work for good wages in the iron mines, at 12 hours a day, for example; Others, like women, can work in vast textile factories and laundry centers, helping to provide needed services to the community; The empire embraces a strong work ethic--lazy people are scorned. Industry and hard work, is dignifying and honourable in everyone's eyes.

So, there is but a sampling of some of the virtues that distinguish the Vallorean Empire. Many of the empire's neighbors are not nearly so conscientious, and in fact can be severe and draconian in all things, often embracing various forms of racism and institutionalized slavery as well. These are often Nuetral or Good kingdoms, as opposed to nations that are out and out Evil, which are these things and more.

Thus, overall, many in the Vallorean Empire are, by the narrow definitions of D&D alignment, Lawful Good, with many being Lawful Nuetral. Some, of course, probably do get by with Lawful Evil alignments. The Vallorean Pantheon, though, is made up deities that are in the majority, Lawful Good, Lawful Neutral, and Neutral Good. There are a few Neutral, Chaotic Good, and even Chaotic Neutral deities as well, but there are no evil deities of any kind.

I thought these comments would be interesting!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


----------



## Volaran

SHARK said:
			
		

> *Greetings!
> 
> LOL!!! Well, indeed, does the Vallorean Empire appear to be Lawful Evil to many of you? Or Lawful Nuetral?
> 
> SHARK *




I would say Lawful Neutral in my view but, with no offense intended, having read many of your posts, I can see how it would fit your view of Lawful Good.  DM defines, no?



			
				SHARK said:
			
		

> *(1) They zealously wage war against all evil kingdoms that they are in contact with, or have reasonable geographical access and ability to wage war against;
> 
> (2) The support the Rule of Law;
> 
> (17) In foreign policy, the Vallorean Empire seeks to gain friends where there is common cause; the empire seeks to peacefully live with its neighbors, under the provisions that they are not demonstrably evil and wicked, despite the fact that they may adhere to cultural or religious customs that the empire deems strange, harsh, or unfortunate;
> SHARK *




This is the main point of contention to me.  The Valloreans desire peace, unless their is the slightest sign of evil in a neighbor, in which case there would be brutal and unceasing slaughter until the evil was gone?  It seems that their respect of the rule of law only extends to Vallorean law.  Now, from their perspective, I can see that be reasonable to a Vallorean citizen, but I'd be damned nervous living next to them.






			
				SHARK said:
			
		

> *(11) Evil religions are ferociously persecuted throughout the provinces of the Vallorean Empire;
> 
> (19) The empire discourages rebellion in all forms, instead encouraging order, law, and responsible conduct, with dignity and honour;
> 
> (16) Freedom of Learning: throughout the empire, scholars and professors, as well as students, are permitted to explore and study a vast range of subjects, with only occasional or specific instruction required by the Imperial Authority;
> 
> (13) The individual rights of the populace to govern and teach their children is not infringed;
> SHARK *




These also seem to contradict a bit, but in a reasonable way.  Obviously, the empire would infringe enough to see that children would be taught proper Vallorean things, as opposed to the the religious practices of Chaotic Evil gods for example.  Again, I would assume that the study of such evil things by sages would be limited to countermeasures and theory rather than practical application. ^_-  Balor summoning for the greater good discouraged and whatnot.


----------



## Zenon

Ok, here's another thought (pardon me if I ramble a bit):

What if we cave in? Offer to parlay? Peace with the mighty Valloreans, etc, etc.

After all, we are Chaotic Evil. The Vampire Lord's shoes might be looking pretty good to fill, but if we don't have the power why not get these pesky do-gooders to batter their heads against our Lords defenses while we bide our time.

Will our evil gods mind? Heck no, they like the strongest to serve them. Lets prove we're not only strong, but smart! Its already been pointed out that matching our force against the Vallorean Legions bearing down on us will get us wiped out.

So lets use this to our advantage. Remember, we consider our troops as "throw away". We need to expend enough of our troopies to put up a good fight (which we may do with some of the ideas floating around these threads) and the Valloreans will expect us not to give up easily.

However, when the Valloreans start seriously hammering us, let us have a change of heart. Offer surrender, tell them we've seen the error of our ways, tell them we've see that we were wrong, lay out the sob story how we're just tortured souls doing the bidding of our evil masters and we repent.

Send envoys to them who truly believe this. Zone of Truth? Doesn't work when the person speaking the words believes them. Auguries? Too short term to see effect in the future past an hour or so. Commune? Our dark gods can contribute to block answers by the good gods, this should haze this up.

In short, play it up to the Vallorean ego and their pride. Make them believe it. Offer them passage, give over the fortress, plead with them to spare the lives of our humble (worthless peasant) people.

Make them have to garrison us. Make them have to spread out to watch us and educate us, slow their advance to a crawl.

Oh and make some good faith terms for this. No wholesale slaughter of our people. After all, we're just a poor people trying to change our evil ways after being shown the righteous path by the Valloreans.

Get the promises from the Valloreans on paper. Signed treaties, etc.

But let's not expose all our strength. Do they have an accurate count of us? Know who our actual leaders are? If not hide some of them. Bury some undead in the countryside.

Let them come among us. Study their ways, their methods, their command structure. Study their gear. Learn about our foe.

If they sign the treaties, great. If they go back on them and start up the slaughter machine, send envoys to their allies. Beg and plead and give them the same sobs story, but now we have proof. "Look at how the Vallorean empire treats those who they sign treaties with," we'll cry, "Look how well they keep their word! Look at them killing our helpless peasants after we surrendered!"

If they don't sign, that's great too. We can still send the envoys to their allies. "Look at the warmongers," we'll say, "We offered a treaty for peace, we offered to stop this senseless fighting. We wanted to have them come amongst us and teach us the error of our ways. But no! They are filled with hatred and violence towards anything or anyone different. Beware that they don't find you "different" after they've bled off your land to feed the casualties of the war they're perpetuating! Are not their ambassadors amongst your people even now, preaching the goodness of their empire? What will you do when your people turn against you, letting your nation be absorbed into their never-ending war? How long until they bleed your nation dry of resource and people to feed their lust for violence done to others?"

Good stuff, either way. Lots of propaganda value for our Dark Lord.

If it slows their armies, that's even better. It gives our boss, the Vampire Lord, time to prepare. If it doesn't slow them, that's ok, that means our boss is that much less prepared when they hit. Maybe they'll take him out so we can step in.

If our boss comes down on us, we can show him we have a valid plan. We are trying to infiltrate them to corrupt them, or give us ammunition to weaken the support of their allies. It is a far reaching and ambitious plan. Rather than smash the army before us, can we hack away at the roots? If we can break up the Vallorean alliance, it can weaken them overall. Possibly even enough to turn the tide in the course of the war.

If he thinks we're too ambitious, then we can step aside and let the Valloreans at him.

The above has some merit, and tries to use the Vallorean weaknesses against themselves (pride and zealousness):

1) They've never lost a war - let's give them what they expect. Any casualties from the attempt will most likely be less that trying to engage them on the field, and we're never exposing our most experienced (and thus  hardest to replace) troops.

2) If they kill us out of zealousness, we can manipulate this into a weapon which can harm their alliances with other nations. A whispered word in an advisors ear in some allied country, that travels to the kings ear. Not all of their allies can be as magically protected and vigilant as the Valloreans. We have to whittle away at them, cut the flow of manpower from these other nations into theirs. Once we can stem the incoming tide of manpower, then their bull-headed, damn-the-torpedoes way of fighting, accepting any loss to get us, will really begin to take it's toll on their armies in the field, or those guarding their homeland. Give us some cracks somewhere and we can get a toehold, perhaps enough stick a wedge in.

Comments? What do we think?


----------



## Volaran

Gah, nevermind


----------



## mmadsen

> These also seem to contradict a bit, but in a reasonable way.



In Vallorea, you're allowed freedom of speech and freedom of religon -- as long as you don't say or believe anything _wrong_. 

More seriously, our notions of freedom of speech and freedom of religion are predicated on the notion that reasonable people disagree on important issues.  In a world where religion isn't an issue of faith, but a real, measurable force, a world where the gods regularly intercede, a world where many churches _don't_ preach some variant of The Golden Rule but human sacrifice instead, does freedom of religion still make sense?  Or do you eliminate all the evil cultists who are stealing babies for their blood-soaked rites?

Edit: This is probably a tangent we shouldn't follow up on.  I don't want to get political.


----------



## Maldur

> This is probably a tangent we shouldn't follow up on. I don't want to get political.




I second this.

We're charged with the defense of the mountain fortress ( what's its name anyway) by someone who could make our life, death, and afterlife very unconfertable. So let's talk defense.

Who has ideas for defending against the champions and heroes the Valloreans can throw our way?

What are their main strenghts? Do we know, by reputation or otherwise, these heroes? What can we expect?

Instant travel via Teleportation and gates. High martial and arcane prowess. The favor of their "lily-white" gods. 

Do we know that the wielder of the famous "runesword of Kurn" is among them? Or the Hero of "Tridal Gap"?  (Names and items are totally fictious , but you get the point). 

Lets list their known and/or likely abilities and find ways to counter them.

SHARK can you tell us somethings about these heroes? What are our spies telling us?


----------



## SHARK

Greetings!

Well, I shall offer some character notes that the forces of Darkness can determine somewhat from intelligence gathering and research.

"The Guardians of Empire"

____________________________________________________

(01) Haldainethor: (M); Vallorean; Noble 10/Paladin 40/Knight-Templar 10
(02) Khellic: (M); Vallorean; Paladin 40/Knight-Templar 10
(03) Osric: (M); Vallorean; Paladin 40/Knight-Templar 10
(04) Darthian: (M); Vallorean; Paladin 40/Knight-Templar 10
(05) Khellsen: (M); Vallorean; Courtier 20/Fighter 30/Sorcerer 10
(06) Tarminion: (M); Vallorean; Ranger 30/Ranger-Captain 10/Rogue 10
(07) Hallendar: (M); Vallorean; Noble 10/Courtier 20/Bard 20
(08) Deitrich: (M); Vallorean; Courtier 20/Cleric 30/Inquisitor 20
(10) Sargen: (M); Vallorean; Noble 20/Wizard 30/Mage of The Silver Dragon 10
(11) Harthogg: (M); Ogre; Fighter 30/Legendary Dreadnaught 10
(12) Garthogg: (M); Ogre; Fighter 30/Legendary Dreadnaught 10
(13) Theracles: (M); Margallen; Fighter 30/Gladiator 10/Legendary Dreadnaught 20
(14) Tharwulf: (M); Valladain; Barbarian 60
(15) Dhargen: (M); Albeeri; Fighter 30
(16) Mardranna: (F); High-Elf; Ranger 30/Rogue 10/Forest Lord 10
(17) Ellthenar: (M); High-Elf; Barbarian 30/Fighter 20/Cleric 10
(18) Margellion: (M); High-Elf; Noble 20/Paladin 30/Knight of The Silver Lion 10
(19) Saerendor: (M); High-Elf; Noble 10/Bard 10/Paladin 40
(20) Malderathan: (M); High-Elf; Ranger 30/Rogue 10/Sorcerer 10/Agent Retriever 10
(21) Rhiannon: (F); High-Elf; Wizard 30/Mage of The Silver Dragon 10
(22) Rhethaina: (F); High-Elf; Wizard 30/Mage of The Silver Dragon 10
(23) Demarra/Daraina: (F); Ogre/High-Elf/Margallen; Infiltrator 20/Royal Explorer 10/Wizard 10
(24) Dharlanna: (F); Ogre/High-Elf/Naeben; Fighter 20/Infiltrator 20 
(25) Malyra: (F); High Elf/Margallen/Tegeran; Courtier 20/Cleric 20
(26) Tyren: (F); High-Elf; Druid 30
(27) Isabelle: (F); Maltainian/High-Elf; Druid 30
(28) Nychen: (F); Khandar; Courtier 20/Wizard 30/Expert 10
(29) Lirryn: (F); High-Elf; Wizard 20/Alchemist 20 
(30) Tiberius: (M); Albeeri; Wizard 30
(31) Titus: (M); Harthak; Cleric 30
(32) Darthenor: (M); Minotaur; Noble 20/Fighter 40
(33) Kendric: (M); Halfling; Rogue 30
(34) Indrethil: (F); High-Elf; Ranger 30
(35) Marnogg: (M); Ogre/High-Elf/Vallorean; Fighter 30
(36) Brandor: (M); Dwarf; Fighter 30/Warlord 10
(37) Brumbar: (M); Dwarf; Fighter 20/Cleric 40
(38) Thargrim: (M); Dwarf; Fighter 20/Rogue 10
(39) Vallarak: (M); Dwarf; Fighter 20/Ranger 10
(40) Mallyndi: (F); Halfling; Rogue 20/Thief-Acrobat 10
(41) Freidrich; (M); Vallorean; Infiltrator 20/Cleric 20/Witch-Hunter 10  
(42) Otto; (M); Vallorean; Fighter 10/Cleric 20/Inquisitor 20
(43) Thandil; (M); Vallorean/High-Elf; Infiltrator 20/Sorcerer 10/Arcane Archer 10  
(44) Hrolf; (M); Vallorean/Valladain/Werewolf; Barbarian 20/Ranger 20
(45) Darathain; (M); High-Elf; Ranger 20/Sorcerer 10/Arcane Archer 20
(46) Zahbinah; (F); Seren; Rogue 20/Spymaster 10  
(47) Jahzerah; (F); Rogue 10/Thief-Acrobat 10/Cleric 10 
(48) Ahkhanera; (F); Tegeran; Courtier 20/Cleric 10  
(49) Khaeden; (M); Vallorean/Marthogg; Infiltrator 20/Shadow Raven 10
(50) Nebiah; (M); Fighter 20/Warlord 10 

Special Notes:

Haldainethor: Haldainethor is the crown prince of the Vallorean Empire; He is an excellent commander, and wields “Alaric” also known as the “Hand of Judgment”—a powerful artifact sword from the founding of the empire.

Deitrich: Deitrich has the appearance of an older man, his hair is salt and pepper; He wields the Mace of Tarmen, an awesome weapon against Undead.

Sargen: Sargen is one of the most powerful wizards in the empire; He wields the Staff of Alderrion, a weapon so awesome that is can burn entire companies of soldiers to ash; He also wears a Ring of Arcane Might, and a Ring of The Ancient Dominion.

Theracles: Theracles is a famous warrior and gladiator from the South; He wields “Vallenar”—a Trident of great power; He also has “Narbichus”—an intelligent Net that whispers ancient secrets of the arena and combat to the famous warrior.

Tharwulf: Tharwulf hails from the frozen forests of Valladain; He is a savage berzerker and Dragon Slayer. He wields “Gallric”—a famous greatsword forged by ancient Valladain craftsmen, and blessed by Odin. He also has the Horn of The Rainbow Gate, a horn that summons a squad of powerful Valkaries.

Ellthenar: Ellthenar is a prince from the great elven kingdom of the north; He is the scion of an ancient royal line, and a ferocious warrior; He wears “Gallthenar”—a shimmering suit of mail crafted of crystal and mithril. Ellthenar also wields “Narthallion”—a bastard sword that burns like a star.

Margellion: Margellion is a prince from the elven kingdom to the west, and is the greatest swordsman of the realm. He is a great commander, and his sword, “Therradain” was wielded by elven kings of old, in the first Dominion Wars.

Rhiannon: Rhiannon is from the elven kingdom to the west, and is wife to Haldainethor. She shall rule the Vallorean Empire as queen when the time comes. She wields the Staff of Darthallion, a powerful artifact from ages past. She also wears the Orb of Finnbar, a glittering jewel of awesome magical power.

Rhethaina: Rhethaina, sister to Rhiannon, wields a Staff of Force, as well as a the Ring of Aedallion.

Nychen: Nychen comes from the great Khandar Empire, far to the east. She has the Staff of Xin-Hai, and the Rod of Celestial Wrath.

Darthenor: Darthenor is an unusual white Minotaur, who comes from the Nimbar Islands. He is a famous general, and a ferocious warrior. He has the Axe of Marniccus, as well as the Platemail of Ceredorn the Great, a mighty hero from two thousand years ago. 

Brandor: Brandor is a powerful dwarven lord, and has the Plate of Tharden, a famous dwarven king. He also wields “Detherak”—the Axe of the Lord of the Citadel of Vallagoth.

Brumbar: Brumbar is an ancient dwarven priest, and famous for discovering the way to the lost dwarven citadel of Vallagoth. He wears platemail of molten mithril, and wields the “Thardennor”—the Hammer of the famous dwarven warrior Arthak The Black, who led the great crusade against the Orcs of Chargan-Garnash in a savage war that lasted 260 years.

Darathain: Darathain is an elf lord from the west, and the greatest archer in the realm. He wields “Ellthandra” a mystical composite longbow that bears the visage of a beautiful elf-woman. “Ellthandra” is a bow of awesome power that can fire arrows of burning starfire as well as standard arrows.

Khellsen: Khellsen, warrior extraordinair, is a great champion, and friend to Haldainethor. Khellsen wears an animated cloak of a huge White Tiger, and wields a powerful longsword, “Serragain”—a mighty sword forged by the wizard Sargen. Khellsen is utterly loyal, and is a great captain of men.

Mardranna: Mardranna is a beautiful elven woman, and is one of the greatest trackers and rangers of the kingdom. She is known to arm herself with a shining spear—“Argallion”—an ancient weapon that can reach enemies at the horizon, and strikes terror in the hosts of Darkness.

Dhargen: Dhargen is a ferocious Albeeri from the distant Albeeri kingdoms, and a mighty warrior. He wields a Vorpal Halberd, and a Greater Lion Shield. He is also known to have an ancient Albeeri Land Ark. The Albeeri Land Ark is a massive, enchanted ship-like vehicle that can carry armies and marches across the landscape like a crushing juggernaut of war.

Titus: Titus is a powerful Harthak Cleric from the south, who wields the Staff of The Radiant Dawn. He also wears the Platemail of Jezran.

Demarra/Daraina: Demarra and Daraina are Siamese twins. They have two heads, but only one body. They have separate personalities and identities, and are very intelligent. They wear the enchanted armor, Thandra’s Skin, a suit of smooth, black panther fur. They also wield a matched pair of glittering Shortswords of Razor Frost. They also have a great cloak of shimmering, rainbow-colored feathers.

Malyra: Malyra comes from the Tegeran Empire, and is a seductive, cunning priestess and leader of fanatical warriors. She has the Mace of Aten-Rheinu, a powerful weapon forged by the priestess of the same name over 6000 years ago. She also wears the Plate armor of Demarnichus. She also has a Staff of Divine Wrath, and a Ring of Divine Rulership, an ancient ring crafted by priestesses of the Goddess Isis.

____________________________________________________
End.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


----------



## Maldur

Thanks SHARK, now we can design "custom"defeats for each and everyone


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## Sarellion

Is Rhiannon the heiress of the elven throne, too? Or Rhetaina? If they are, we could perhaps set up some false evidence that the Valloreans are planning to incorporate the elven empire in their realm by marriage (and ask your gods to disturb the communes to their gods). This would certainly create some dissension and even to a withdrawal of the elven heroes by orders of the elven kings.

Even if this is not possible, there must be some disgruntled nobles in both realms who think poorly about the marriage. They could be some potential allies for our realm, at least in the political theater.


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## mmadsen

> "The Guardians of Empire"
> 
> (01) Haldainethor: (M); Vallorean; Noble 10/Paladin 40/Knight-Templar 10
> ...
> (50) Nebiah; (M); Fighter 20/Warlord 10



Are we expecting all 50 epic-level Guardians of the Vallorean Empire to fight in this military campaign?  We are so doomed.


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## SHARK

Greetings!

Sarellion: No, Rhiannon and Rhethaina are not heirs to any elven thrones. They are well-placed elven noblity, but nothing that is really powerful. Their political connections through the Vallorean Empire are extensive, however, and Rhiannon is very close friends with an Elven king who rules a kingdom in the north-east, in addition to being close to the elven king of the western kingdom. Rhethaina is married to the scion of a Royal Governor in the Vallorean Empire, a powerful province in the north-west of the empire. Her husband is a powerful warrior, and is very popular with several legions raised in the province.

mmadsen: Well, in addition to the "Guardians of Empire"--some of whom are cohorts to other members--while others, have cohorts and followers of their own, with appropriate levels in different classes. You know--a few 20th level, a few 15th level, and so on down the line. I have several pages detailing the personalities, equipment, and stats for these different cohorts and followers, as well as detailed training and replacement schedules for when they die, and who gets promoted up the ranks, leading to a new recruitment drive, and so on.

Some of the characters noted have extensive forces that they can call upon, merely as special bodyguards and assault troops, with crack members of cohort units, while others have only developed a few cohorts. So, it can vary somewhat, you know?

With the kind of firepower involved, you can see why I have been interested in some different ideas, because running extensive encounters with this many high-powered characters and NPC's can be quite challenging. That is why I thought of recruiting some different ideas to throw some stuff at them that perhaps I haven't thought of!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## mmadsen

> With the kind of firepower involved, you can see why I have been interested in some different ideas, because running extensive encounters with this many high-powered characters and NPC's can be quite challenging. That is why I thought of recruiting some different ideas to throw some stuff at them that perhaps I haven't thought of!



How do you plan on playing out the confrontation?  You could spend all weekend playing out one battle between a couple dozen of those Guardians and as many Fire Giants.  How are you going to integrate their actions with the greater army's?


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## mmadsen

SHARK, what does a normal encounter in your campaign look like at this point?  What's a typical challenge for dozens of epic-level heroes?  (And they're not just barely epic-level; many are 60th-level!)


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## Maldur

Isolation and elimination.

So now we only have to find a way to  get them unarmed, naked, alone and asleep in between a group of buffed firegiants and we got a chance.

Damn, your Heros are tough!
Lets hope their intelligence isn't as good.

Allthough the knowledge of one of our hero's could draw some in a assasination attempt. Who would be willing to act like bait?


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## Sarellion

Yeah this collection of heroes let our undead heart sink pretty deep.

What about my proposal to toxify the country? Is there anything wrong with it? 

It seems that our only option is to harass the enemy as long as possible than to retreat and join the forces of our empire. The fortress is lost. All troops who defend it are trapped into it. We should trap it so we can destruct it when the Vallorean forces ar taking the fortress. 
The vallorean pride will perhaps blind them long enough that they don´t realize that it is a trap.

If the other forces of Galleran are as pathetic as our troops (oh my god if I think about the normal power niveau of our troops it is unbelievable that I write this) we should leave the country and join some other guys.


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## SHARK

Greetings!

No, all hope is not lost! There are some reinforcements available--but they are not a huge number. It seems that one can expect about two-three dozen evil champions between levels 30-50 to arrive, along with 56,000 elite human troops (levels 8-16).

As for standard encounters, well, this particular group is often not all present, and when they are, they usually fight hordes of beastmen, demons, monsters, vampires, and so on. There was a vampire captain that crushed five or six of them in no time, before the rest pounded on him. Despite their high levels, and a few choice items, they can be taken down. They lose fate points and retreat all the time. They eventually win most of the time, but not always. The Vampire King Mallenar himself makes them flee en masse. His top knight-commanders can certainly kill them for good, so they are often very careful. Mob attacks, multiple spell-casters and such, all working as well-oiled teams, can really put the hurt on the group.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## mmadsen

> As for standard encounters, well, this particular group is often not all present, and when they are, they usually fight hordes of beastmen, demons, monsters, vampires, and so on.



I'm having trouble seeing how hordes of beastmen would pose a threat to a dozen 40th-level PCs.


> Mob attacks, multiple spell-casters and such, all working as well-oiled teams, can really put the hurt on the group.



Are the mobs at all effective, or do they just provide "color"?


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## SHARK

Greetings!

Mob attacks effective?: Sure! Imagine groups of flying archers, say groups of (10) 15th-20th lvl Fighters. Each group of ten remains invisible, flying, and firing barrages of arrows at

(1) Groups or individual wizards

(2) Obvious clerics and healers

(3) Front-line combat warriors, knights, fighters.

Depending on what else that you have going, such an ambush can be quite harrowing for the party. Toss in two groups of six or ten 18th level wizards that all agree to drop targeted fire-power on the group of wizards or clerics, and then have a phalanx of mounted knights or heavy infantry rushing in with halberds, and pretty soon, the party--even though they are of powerful, high level--they are milling about, struggling to survive and stay organized, while they attempt to fend off the hordes and quickly organize a plan of counter-attack. I would say that they have a system down, but it varies, because the enemies that they fight are different, and don't just do the same things. I'd say the group loses a henchman or two every other adventure. The party themselves, well, as you can see from the roster, there are significant gaps in power level. That is because of significant player-character and npc attrition losses through various adventures. It can, as you can imagine, get quite ferocious and bloody.

The actual incidence of blood and thunder combat must be kept, in my opinion, at a ferocious level, with mass confusion everywhere, and death at everyone's elbow. I admit that I don't use 6th level trolls. No, I use 16th level flying trolls who have bane arrows, and hide in ambush, and cooperate with a squad of giants as heavy infantry, with a good level of magic power, and they storm the group as they travel quickly. The essence in bringing terror to such a party is while the main wizard is being eaten alive, and is grappled, and can't cast spells, he then can't be protecting someone else. The enemy wizard or wizards can pound the clerics to mush, while additional enemy infantry swarms the party with arrows and hand-to-hand assaults. Even with creatures and characters of significantly lower level, the increased numbers, combined with cunning tactics, and liberal use of spoiling attacks timed precisely to keep the party off-balance, can make their life a living hell.

With dealing with a party of such power, as the Game Master, you cannot let them take their time to figure everything out nicely, and optimize every little spell. Hit them fast, hit them hard, and never let up the pressure. Make them make realistic decisions in a vacuum. There's fog, smoke, and screaming everywhere, in addition to flashes of magical Darkness, Light, as well as the constant screams for help, and the shouts of triumph, mixed with the screams of the dying, makes it very difficult for any sense of unit cohesion to prevail. 

They don't, despite their often powerful spells and magic items--they don't know, feel, see, hear, everything, instantaneously, that is going on with everyone. They attempt to help the screaming paladin, while over there, in the darkness, evil dire tigers are shredding one of the clerics, and so on. Constant pressure, constant uncertainty, constant screaming and death.

Somehow, when the smoke and fog of battle clears, and they have buried the dead, and healed the wounded, the ones that have survived give thanks to the gods that they are alive, and they have survived another terrible onslaught by the forces of darkness. This of course doesn't necessarily take into account the occasional player-character or npc that is mentally disturbed, sometimes temporarily, and sometimes a few are driven utterly insane, gibbering and broken from the blood, savagery, and horror that they have endured. These characters must be grappled, and taken to a quiet monastery somewhere where they can hopefully live out their days achieving some semblance of peace and tranquility, for they have sacrificed those things so that others might experience them instead. They quietly retire in their enforced quest for peace. There have been three player-characters and 9 npc's that have entered a monastery in retirement.

Thus, such ferocious horde tactics must be used, so as to minimise the party's vast strengths, and bring them down to the level of blood and sweat. Doing so, consistently in my experience, keeps them quite humble, and keeps them firmly in mortal consciousness, for a savage and terrible death always awaits them should they make a mistake, or become arrogant.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


----------



## mmadsen

> Mob attacks effective? Sure! Imagine groups of flying archers, say groups of (10) 15th-20th lvl Fighters. Each group of ten remains invisible, flying, and firing barrages of arrows...



I was under the impression that epic-level characters would be able to see invisible foes and fly at will -- especially if they're regularly attacked by flying, invisible enemies.  They don't all have a gem of seeing and wings of flying (or something similar)?


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## Maldur

Well have to set up several ways of gathering intel.
Mundane, magical and any other way we can think of.

If we need to swamp them with attacks, we need more intelligence. 

Clouds of bats, crows and other eyes in the sky. maybe some tremorse creatures buried at key points. 

Also do we need to find a way to utilize neutral creatures ( or even good) so detect evil spells/abilities wont detect our spies.


Delaying should still be our first priority.


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## Melkor Lord Of ALL!

Hi Shark! I would have posted earlier in this thread but life made me a bit busy recently. Most advices I would suggest were already given , I think that withdrawing most forces from Fortess and making it a deadly trap might be a nice idea. Do you have a list of major evil NPC`s?  One of Mallenar`s Generals, maybe one that doesn`t seem that much evil, might pretend to betray his master, give some valuable info, and at the crucial time betray the Valloreans!


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## Nifft

Do we have time to make an army of iron golems shaped like giant skeletons?

How about one million stirges?

A squad of half-dragon rust monsters?

Could we dominate a force of purple worms?

How about a batallion of gorgons?

 -- Nifft


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## SHARK

Greetings!

Maldur, Melkor, and Nift: Indeed, all of these ideas have merit, and can be used to some effect. Good thinking! Also, remember that most of the nuetral and evil spellcasters on your side have a greater range of creatures that they can summon and bind to serve them, than the forces of Good have. 

Mmadsen: Yeah, you might think that. It is reasonable after all. However, various players and their characters have motifs that they follow, and they have favorite items--like certain kinds of cloaks that Wings would interfere with, and so on. They value their special items more than, how do I say it?--absolute interchangeable and flexible mass items and responses, if you see what I'm saying. It isn't like they don't have the wealth to do so!

I'm thinking that the operation might get off the ground this weekend!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## Zenon

SHARK said:
			
		

> *I'm thinking that the operation might get off the ground this weekend!*




Well, keep us posted! After all the input on the two threads of this, I'm going to love to hear how it goes, what gets used and what doesn't and how the PC's react.


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## Melkor Lord Of ALL!

And if you have time, give descriptions of some NPC`s on Mallenar`s side. I am really curious on Mallenar`s level, I hope he has some custom mighty epic spells that will show these pesky heroses the True Power Of Darkness! Of course, there can`t be The Dark Lord greater than Melkor, Lord Of All!


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## mmadsen

> Each group of ten remains invisible, flying, and firing barrages of arrows at:
> 
> (1) Groups or individual wizards
> (2) Obvious clerics and healers
> (3) Front-line combat warriors, knights, fighters.
> 
> Depending on what else that you have going, such an ambush can be quite harrowing for the party. Toss in two groups of six or ten 18th level wizards that all agree to drop targeted fire-power on the group of wizards or clerics, and then have a phalanx of mounted knights or heavy infantry rushing in with halberds...



You seem to be following a German _blitzkrieg_ model where I'd follow an American air-war model.  Instead of giving them something to fight back against (mounted knights or heavy infantry), soften them up with aerial units -- and just keep softening them up, until they have no anti-air capability.

It might not make for a fun game, but it's a wise strategy.  A few aerial units with Distance bows can snipe away, day and night.  The first Guardian to shoot back is the new target.  A couple dozen Unholy Bane arrows should end that threat.

Or, if we're willing to come in closer, we should arm our aerial units with Javelins of Lightning or slings with enchanted bullets -- one-hand weapons -- so they can carry Arrow Deflection shields.


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## Melkor Lord Of ALL!

Uhm, Mmadsen, last time I checked Valloreans had a huge advantage in aerial cavalry.


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## mmadsen

> Uhm, Mmadsen, last time I checked Valloreans had a huge advantage in aerial cavalry.



Then we shoot them down until that's not the case.  Missile weapons enchanted for Distance are tailor-made for shooting down aerial units -- through arrow-slits from the towers of our own Mountain Citadel, no less!


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## Maldur

Shark: have fun, keep us posted.
So we can react to their actions as well.

You got yourself a thinktank, so you better use it


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## Maldur

We have to find a way to keep them awake for a few days. 
Lets have the spellcasters run dry.

So load noises, and lightshows (alchemistic concoctions and fireworks)


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## mmadsen

> So now we only have to find a way to  get them unarmed, naked, alone and asleep in between a group of buffed firegiants and we got a chance.



Basically true.  Do all the Guardians set up camp right next to each other?  Are they mobile enough to come together before a teleport-skirmish has done its damage?

If any of them wander off, we have to strike.  On the other hand, if they don't spread out at all, we have to go where they're _not_ and do some damage there.  We could probably eat through legions until the Guardians come out to play.


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## Maldur

If we can get the legions clerics low on spells, tired and sick. the gardians need to spread out to assist in healing and Curing the troops.

To do this we use plans we mentioned before ( keeping them awake, hitting them with plagues and diseases, Unexpected attacks and ambushes, traps etc etc).

If they spread out to do this we can see if we can assault them, one-by-one with the higher level monsters/heroes at our disposal. 

The assault teams can be outfitted like the cannonball armed firegiants. Or the very, long range archers mounted on flying steeds.

Lets  "divide and conquer".


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## mmadsen

> If we can get the legions clerics low on spells, tired and sick. the gardians need to spread out to assist in healing and Curing the troops.



Good idea.

Now to combine a few ideas, let's strike from the air, invisibly, while our illusory archers attack from nearby woods (or other cover).  If the Guardians get hit by arrows while visible archers attack from nearby and invisible archers attack from miles away, who will they attack?  Presumably the nearby archers -- who aren't necessarily even there.  

Fire Giants can lob indirect fire over a small hill, while one or two invisible allies spot for them.  Illusory Fire Giants then charge from over the hill (or whatever).  The Guardians waste valuable spells destroying these non-troops.

But maybe certain Guardians can and will see through those illusions and communicate that to their allies?  So perhaps we buff up a few units with lots and lots of defensive spells, and surround them with illusory allies.  Or we disguise Wang-Liang as mundane Ogres amongst actual Ogres.  The true-seeing and not-so-true-seeing Guardians will each see a bunch of enemies, but they won't realize that the other sees something subtly different.


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## mmadsen

> I'm thinking that the operation might get off the ground this weekend!



Well, SHARK, did it get off the ground?  Fill us in!


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## Nifft

This is based off an old idea...

*Baby Bombs!*

Ingredients:

1 lb alchemical explosives
1 remote detonator
1 means of non-fatal insertion
1 medium-sized child


It's important that the child be alive when dropped (or hurled) and that the Vallorians know that the child is alive. If they catch it, BOOM! If they don't, they've moved one step further from Good... and therefore away from their god-granted cleric & paladin abilities.

 -- Nifft


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## mmadsen

SHARK, did it get off the ground, or are you still looking for input?


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## SHARK

Greetings!

Indeed, mmadsen, I think I have postponed it until this weekend instead! Hopefully it will get off the ground! I, and the other players as well, have been very busy, so we haven't quite had the time we would really like to have. Hopefully, it will go well this weekend!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## mmadsen

> Indeed, mmadsen, I think I have postponed it until this weekend instead! Hopefully it will get off the ground! I, and the other players as well, have been very busy, so we haven't quite had the time we would really like to have. Hopefully, it will go well this weekend!



Let us hope it gets off the ground -- and that we, as Galleran's Council of Elders, can aid our Dark Lord in turning the Vallorean advance.


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## Elder-Basilisk

Nifft said:
			
		

> *This is based off an old idea...
> It's important that the child be alive when dropped (or hurled) and that the Vallorians know that the child is alive. If they catch it, BOOM! If they don't, they've moved one step further from Good... and therefore away from their god-granted cleric & paladin abilities.
> *




I don't think it would work that way in SHARK's world. He seems to display a certain flexibility that doesn't allow bad guys to place good guys in impossible situations like this. In other words, his gods say "That is a vile and evil act--you must exact painful and just vengeance upon its perpetrators" rather than "Naughty Paladin--you didn't sacrifice yourself in a vain attempt to save the baby who was doomed to die no matter what you did. I think I'll remove your powers as punishment for someone else's vile deeds."


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## SHARK

Greetings!

LOL! Elder-Basilisk, you have described my own attitude and approach precisely! I love it! Very goo my friend, very good!

By the way, Elder-Basilisk, I should like to E-mail you. Perhaps you could E-mail me, there are some things I would like to share with you.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## Sarellion

Hi Shark

how is the campaign going and what have you implemented from this fine ideas?


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## Maldur

> how is the campaign going and what have you implemented from this fine ideas?




I second that!

How was the first contact?
Was is as bad as we thought it would be?


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## SHARK

Greetings!

The Legions are on their way! The Guardians of Empire have begun sorting out their strategy, and they are on their way to the staging area of the theater of operations! There are 15 veteran legions in this area, with 20 additional legions filtering in, training, and preparing for the coming offensive. Meanwhile, the party is preparing for their own assault...the group has many different options. More will develop this weekend, now that the planning and travel has been dealt with!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## SHARK

Greetings!

Well...the attack has begun! Should we talk about it here, in this thread, for those who are interested, or should I begin a separate thread for that discussion? What do you think?

Semper Fidelis!

SHARK


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## Sarellion

Salute

IMHO we could discuss it here. So we could see the proposals made before.

What could Intel tell us about their plans?

And what kind of plan will the Mallenarians want to use now against them? Have you already decided?


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## ashockney

*Just post it baby!!!*

Very excited at the early results!

Probably easiest to start new and reference the first two threads.


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## LairdRuari

*Laird Ruari Von Christensen, Captain Vallorean Legions, Decorated Hero of Vallorea*

I, Laird Ruari Von Christensen, Captain of the Vallorean Legions, Decorated Hero of Vallorea, Blessed and Holy Palladin of Ulrich(30th lvl), and one of the slayers of the Great Black Wyrm do hereby offer greetings and sulutations to all Lords and Ladies of En World!  I have been reading this thread with great interest and decided to offer my update as the assault has begun!!
    My troops consisted of 147 1st lvl infantry equipped with masterwork chainmail, large shields, and bastard swords; 11 2nd lvl rangers with mty. comp. longbows and +1 arrows; 12 3rd lvl barbarians with greataxes and hvy. picks; and my staff consisting of 5-20th lvl rangers, fighters, and paladins equipped with much less mundane items.  The Empire has launched a surprise assault with myself and my forces included against the Citadel as a disorienting move against our enemy.  While Mallaran pours his troops to the defense of his citadel the bulk of our legions are making for the cities (the real prize).  
    We executed the assault utilizing our glorious Vallorean flying warships to overcome any wards against teleportation into the Citadel.  In a swift manuever we caught our enemy off-balance, but since we could only initially transport half a legion we were quickly outnumbered and taking heavy casualties.  The remaining legion and a half were to be teleported to the ships and the dropped over the LZ.  Things were going OK in spite of our losses until Mallaran unleashed a surprise of his own! I was busy charging down Fire Giants when several of our warships vaporized to grey ash midair.  It was a Great Black Wyrm from another plane unleashed upon my comrades and I in all of its foul wickedness!!  Ulrich help us it was consuming everything in sight!!  I called upon Ulrich for His mighty blessing and spun my steed for a run at this abomination of evil lest it consume all that I hold dear!  I was peppered with Meteor swarms and showered with vile arrows from enemy wizards and archers.  I was within Ulrich's glory(death) several times(lost 3 fate points) before I even reached the vile Wyrm and plunged my sword into its gizzard with a holy and righteous smite.  The beast roared in all its fury seeking to turn me and my steed to ash, but Ulrich had granted me favor so my reflexes were swift to avoid his putrid emanations from his nostrils.  Then the Lady Rhiannon vexed the beast with some of her powerful magiks, and I readied another strike for the glory of Ulrich and Vallorea.  It was a mighty struggle, but with but a few breaths of sweet life in my lungs victory was granted and the heroes of Vallorea had slain one of Mallaran's mightiest weapons.  Re-inforcements are now able to safely arrive, we have secured a major LZ in the Citadel including a tower that housed a regiment of Mallaran's Knights.  My forces are cut by 40%, I lost some brave men, but we are now moving for a clash with the Beastmen forces guarding the Crystal Pyramid.
    I am certain that Shark will give you a further update as the battle unfolds.  Shark and I have been friends since 1989.  Baron Ruari Von Christensen was created around 1994 when Shark finally talked me into playing Rollmaster with him.  It was alot of tedious work that I still hate, but his imagination and storymaking abilities coupled with his amusing characterizations held my interest and made playing a D20 game fun in spite of the tedious work involved.  Shark's world has always been historically correct, detailed, multi-faceted, and VERY LETHAL!!  Don't expect your Clerics to have access to resurrection spells in Shark's world as he takes maniacal glee in "rule-zeroing" that spell as well as a host of other's he hates.  We as players had to threaten mutiny to un-rule-zero restoration spells and only at a high GP/XP cost!!  Ruari has been subjected to Drow torture and breeding farms, vampires, masochistic prison guards, nymphomaniacal Chaos priestessess, etc.  Evil in Shark's world is to the core, and good such as Ruari would make Billy Graham proud.  Each are crusaders for thier own cause with a fervor.
    Thank you for listening and I apologize if I strayed a bit off-track.  I posted this because Shark has been after me to comment as one of his regular players, so all of you Lords and Ladies could get another perspective than his.  The battle for the Citadel is an intense one and a bit of a learning experience for me.  Ruari was near 20th lvl when Shark switched to playing 3rd edition D&D, and he was do to marry his elven maid he had been betrothed to.  While waiting on Epic rules to come out Ruari enjoyed a long honeymoon with his bride before being called back to the legions.  That was 1997, so I am re-aquainting myself with him.  For one Ruari had no Paladin spells that I recall in Rollmaster and now he has all to lvl 4, and Epic abilities/feats to learn.  Anyway, I will try to visit now and then if you want me to post more.  Thanks again for listening and I highly recommend everyone to purchase Shark's upcoming modules as they are published.  I guaranty that you will find much enjoyment and adventure within!!



Laird Ruari


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## Maldur

Laird Ruari Welcome to ENworld!!! 

From our viewpoint its a shame your assault went this easy
 I hope you will post more so we can follow your adventures in SHARK world. Reading your mail, your troop sound s a bit underpowered. Is SHARK giving us the full recruiting ( trumped up ) version of the legions? Have fun, and keep us posted.

We have to torture some of our spies as we were never told about the "glorious" AIRBOATS!!!  Now we had a shortage of AAA.


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## sword-dancer

Maldur

They took the bait with the hook completely.


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## LairdRuari

*LOL*

I salute you Maldur!  I also assure you that if our inquisitors find any of your spies they will wish for torture from your forces!!

Concerning my forces, They were part of the contingent of "fresh" conscripts and recruits, I have sent a request to command for my old seargent "Garthog" a half-Ogre fighter from the old days of "Rollmaster" to whip them into shape, but I have not recieved any word as of yet.  The remaining 60% were given a +2 moral bonus to attack after witnessing the destruction of the Great Wyrm and field promotions, so the 100 or so of the 147 for example fought well enough to be given 3rd lvl rank.

Ruari


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## sword-dancer

Oops

I shouldn`t had post this so

look on this rod of 




light


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## SHARK

Greetings!

Well, the armies have attacked!

Rhiannon reminded me of the fleet of flying ships that the Vallorean Empire has, and rolled a high enough Diplomacy check to persuade the High Command to release the fleet for use in the offensive. The Valloreans then sent a blocking force to the south, where they have proceeded to build roads, bridges, and fortifications. Some 4 Legions are involved. In the center, driving towards the mountain passes and the Citadel, are 8 Legions, which deployed an elaborate deception operations for two weeks, before making decisive attacks. There are large siege trains with this force as well.

The largest legion force, an army of 20 Legions, marched far to the north-east, and turned south, to launch operations by a coup-de-main against the two northern cities. 

Furthermore, the Guardians of Empire used Rhiannon's father's enchanted island to fly over the citadel. Remaining hidden within the clouds and out of missile range, the island hosted the fleet of flying ships as teleportation circles were set up en masse to teleport two legions from the forward base-camp to the island, from where they boarded the flying ships to make the daring air assault at dawn.

With the arrival of dawn, the Guardians of Empire launched a ferocious assault, choosing to attack the upper tier of the citadel, rather than the lower two levels. The Guardians of Empire landed, and Rhiannon opened up with a intensified Call Lightning spell, while elite Legionnaires dropped from the flying ships by Feather Fall.

The defenders were not idle, though. The defending forces reaped an awful harvest of legionnaires as they floated down through the air, and landed hither and anon. The upper courtyard was slick with Vallorean blood! The citadel walls were manned by ranks and ranks of deadly archers--thousands of them, as they sent clouds of deadly arrows into the legionnaires landing in the courtyards below.

Meanwhile, the assault force of Fire Giants launched barrages of flaming steel balls at the flying ships, shredding them with searing hot steel, and sending several of them, loaded with legionnaires, plunging to their deaths. The platoon of Cloud Giants began firing their own powerful bows at the Guardians of Empire, and legionnaires that were struggling to take a tower by assault. Meanwhile, ranks of Beastmen and human warriors filled the courtyards at different points, isolating the legionnaires. Evil wizards proceeded to pepper the courtyard with Meteor Swarms, barrages of Lightning Bolts, and Cones of Cold, slaughtering ranks and ranks of Legionnaires under the deluge.

Then, a Pyroclastic Dragon, swept into the courtyard, and slaughtered 1800 Legionnaires almost immediately. A blast of its furnace-like breath brought two flying ships to the ground in flaming hulks, the trapped legionaires screaming as they melted under the blast. The single dragon proceeded to breath and bite the party of some fifty characters almost to death. Fully half the party were on the brink of death, with nearly everyone losing two or three Fate Points in fighting the dragon, and other forces in the courtyard. 

Finally, under a furious assault by the party, the dragon was killed under a barrage of Cones of Cold, and flashing blades! It was getting very desperate--I thought the party might actually be defeated right here, and the jig would be up! With the defeat of the dragon, the Vallorean assault forces managed to capture two of the fortress towers, and several outbuildings and sections of wall as more and more Vallorean legionnaires continued to land, in wave after wave, even as many of them continued to be slaughtered!

Later in the first night, the Heavt Assault squads of the army--composed of some 500 Cloud Giants--made an air assault at night which reinforced the besieged Legionnaires. Despite these powerful reinforcements, the Vallorean position remains desperate and tenuous, as more and more evil minions are locking them down, and maintaining horrendous pressure against them. The Valorean assault force may indeed be swept from the fortress!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## Zenon

Awesome, simply awesome.

Keep it coming. It looks like some of the suggestions here might have caught them a little off guard.

I know we (The Bad Guys) are most likely going to lose in the end, but it's great seeing the results of all of the posters efforts in action.


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## Bagpuss

SHARK said:
			
		

> *Greetings!
> 
> Black Rain Spells? Eh...nice thought, but why couldn't they come up with the same thing then? *




Perhaps because such a powerful magical effect takes days to prepare and the land that is to be effected needs to be prepared with the correct spell components. Rituals performed night after night until enough magical energy is built up and ready to be realeased.

Thus the spell/ritual is really only useful to a defending force, that has given up ground it has prepared ready for the enemy to advance into, not for an attacking army which can't prepare the land it has yet to claim.

It's a bit like mine-fields absolutely useless as an attacking weapon but useful for defense.

Seems resonable to me.


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## Bagpuss

While we are on the topic of defense measures as its your land and  you can control who teleports where.

One method would be to 'mine-field' the terrain the Vallorians must advance over with small pebbles (or some such) that when stepped on teleport the person to prepared locations where you attack them, with the advantage of numbers and being prepared. A spell sort of like Refuge only with an unwilling victim.

Or alternatively, just into a lava pit. Another option would be to enchant arrow heads to the same effect. You're hit by an arrow and you reapper over a fire pit. This also has the advantage that the arrow is no-longer a normal missile so Protection from Normal Missiles has no effect.

[Note: I don't have access to any Epic level information so I'm just going by PHB, DMG, etc. Feel free to pick holes in my ideas]


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## Jürgen Hubert

Put a Nexus Tower on top of the fortress, and shelling any invaders into submission shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Of course, this means that there needs to be a significant number of people in the fortress for a lengthy period of time...


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## clockworkjoe

The defenders can easily maximize their combat srength with a few simple pieces of wondrous architecture from the stronghold builder's guide. 

Circles of healing are incredible for well organized defenders. Strategically place them near choke points so they are constantly healed. 

There's also a wondrous architecture item that effectively acts as a permanent haste to anyone in the room. Fire giants and other missile troops with lots of ammo can lay waste to any defenders before the attackers can heal themselves.


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## Nifft

I haven't seen this before, but what about "trigger mines". Some sort of a Delay Blast Fire/Ice/Sonic/Acid/Lightning Ball, but with a trigger of "Detect Good 5' Radius" instead of a timer.

Evil spells ought to be able to substitute the blood / body parts / lives of innocents for their material components.

 -- Nifft


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## Twinswords

Why not start raising a few legonairs. And throwing those mines on them. Moving mines. give some a gentle repost. And when they get close then klabam. You could even mass teleport them into a likely place of an infirmary of the good guys. And off course raise the dragon as a dracolich. hehehe BTW Shark how many legionairs are still alive? 

Twinswords


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## Jürgen Hubert

My setting has the following spell that will deal nicely with all those pesky infantry units:



> Mass Conflagration [Nexus]
> Evocation [Fire]
> Spellcraft DC: 16
> Components: V, S
> Casting Time: 1 minute
> Range: 4,800 ft.
> Area: 320-ft.-radius spread
> Duration: Instantaneous
> Saving Throw: Reflex half
> Spell Resistance: Yes
> To Develop: 144,000 gp; 3 days; 5,760 XP. Seed: energy (DC 19). Factors: area +1,500% (+60 DC), range +1,500% (+30 DC). Mitigating factors: burn 1,000 XP (-10 DC), two additional nexus towers contributing epic spell slots (-38 DC), five additional casters contributing 5th-level spell slots (-45 DC).
> 
> As fireball, but with increased range and area.
> Spells like mass conflagration are largely responsible for the fact that mass battles with large numbers of troops in tight formations are a thing of the past in the world of Urbis, especially in the vincity of nexus towers. Such spells can reduce whole armies to ashes, as few troops are able to withstand the intense heat.




Of course, you will want to have the above-mentioned Nexus Towers to go with it... but hey, they are worth it!


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## Rhiannon

Hello All

Well, I also play in SHARK'S campaign. It's good to see Laird Ruari has updated everyone on the opening battle for the fortress. Of course, in typical Vallorean style, he tells the story leaving out all the contributions made by someone other than himself and his troops. 

Ruari joined the fun in time for this excursion. He was given command of a small detachment of recruits by his temple. Ruari fought well and contributed to the sucess of the fight against the Dragon and went on to lead an attack against the gathering horde of Beastmen. 

Other members of the group contributed sigificantly to the defeat of the Dragon. Several powerful wizards and clerics were launching chain lightning, cone of cold, flame strike and Otiluke's Freezing Sphere spells at the Dragon. At least 15 other Paladins and Fighters were a sigificant part of the fighting. More than a few of the party members and numerous cohorts died in this combat alone. 

I believe that we surprised SHARK by landing our forces on the uppermost tier of the fortress. Instead of starting off with the weaker defenders, we went straight to the top to hit the big players first. 

Almost immediately upon landing, gates opened and a dozen Tyrannosaurus Rexs came through to wreak havoc. Thank you if you suggested this. I was able to cast Dominate Monster on one and now am considering casting Awaken on it. Just imagine the looks on the towns folk's faces when I bring this bad boy home! I can just picture him with specticles, reading a book and talking philosophy.

After a very hard, intense fight we have a toe hold on the upper tier of the fortress. With luck we will not lose our grip and are beginning to make assaults against the rest of the defenders on the upper tier. In game time, our attack is less than 24 hours old so I know much more fun awaits us. 

Rhiannon is the daughter of a half Elf/Vallorean and an Elf. She was not raised within the Vallorean Empire and has a number of conflicting ideas and beliefs. I began to play Rhiannon when she was a teen and still in training (about 6 years ago in real time). She was raised on the outskirts of an Elven Kingdom and the only Vallorean that she knew was her father. She and He had numerous heated conflicts and at different times he locked her in a tower, locked her in her room, made her clean out the stables, serve him like a servant and tied her out in the courtyard to be whipped by the Captain of the Guard. Needless to say there was not much love lost for Vallorea or Valloreans by Rhiannon.  Rhiannon is most often the character that starts debates with the Valloreans just to get under their skin. Fanatical, patriarchal, strict Puritannical Valloreans and their crones (namely Dwarves) sent Rhiannon to the moon. It is difficult for her to pass up opportunities to pick at them. So not everyone in SHARK'S campaign is a Vallorean sycophant. 

The really ironic thing is that Rhiannon married a Vallorean and not just any Vallorean, she married a Vallorean Prince! Now she can no longer complain about how Vallorea is trying to take over the world and import their culture and beliefs to the older and more developed cultures, she must participate in it. So now she is leading legions in a back water all in the name of the glory of Vallorea! 

Well, I know that SHARK will keep you posted on the happenings in the battle for the wilderness. Ruari will no doubt stop by to relive moments of Vallorean glory. Perhaps I can come by to tell you how the rest of us helped. 

Thanks for reading this and if you have any suggestions of how to attack a mountain fortress, I'm all ears!

Rhiannon


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## Maldur

Rhianon, welcome as well!

Sorry, but NO we will not assist you in attacking our fortress!
There are some tricks up our sleeves. And we will send really good new suggestions by mail iso posting them here  ( we now know your reading this)

The campaign sounds like great fun. Its a shame you guys live on the other side of the planet!


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## LairdRuari

*I respecfully beg your pardon my lady*

Evidently my attempts at brevity in describing the battle has "gotten under your skin"!!

I should like to point out that I only claimed to be "One of the slayers of the Great Wyrm", and that I gave you the full credit that you were due as my future Queen ie. "Lady Rhiannon vexed the vile beast with her powerful magiks".  And finally, in describing the final demise of the evil beast I summarized the battle by stating "The heroes of Vallorea were victorious" of which yourself and I were but a few.

Being but a Captain in Vallorea's mighty legions I was with my troops during the planning of the attack and was not privy to the higher details of the assault.  I called it as I experienced it amongst the fury of the fighting.

I find it hard to understand my Lady's distaste of all that is Vallorea.  I suppose it is just the Quirky Elven side of her.  I have many of the same problems with my own wife.  Can you believe it my Lords and Ladies??  Elves actually believe that they are greater than the Empire??  It is Vallorea that has absorbed all that is good from their culture, mixed it with all that is good from other peoples that we have brought under our guidance in the purpose of bringing civilization to a barbaric world.  Soon all will know the "sweetness" of Vallorean life and experience the true peace that is Vallorea!!!   Furthermore, as my Lady has pointed out, it is her that is now the instrument of guidance!

Ruari

Hail Vallorea the mightiest of the mighty and blessings upon blessings from Ulrich our patron God of War!!  May she reign supreme and all know the "peace that is Vallorea"!!


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## Sarellion

Somehow I can understand the elves and it would be a blessing to smash Vallorea once and for all.  

@Shark How are our chances creating an alliance with the elves? Somehow I could picture an lovely alliance between the goody elves and the not so goody vampires destroying a greater evil  , ah good of course.


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## Maldur

Or revolutionairies 

That could be a interesting campaign, playing revolutionairies in the empire. Dodging inquisitions, fighting overzealous bureaucrats and other officials. Could be zorro-ish or have some other double identity complication.


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## SHARK

Greetings!

LOL! Yeah, scotch that! The elves and the Valloreans, while occasionally disagreeing on approach, method, or attitude, generally share the same goals, so they have a strong alliance. It's kinda like the relationship between Britain and America--Britain is older, somewhat more refined, a bit more worldly, renowned for sophistication, and usually fairly wise; while America is larger, louder, passionate, more aggressive, and more numerous and powerful, and capable of actually getting large projects done. The elves and Vallorea, like Britain and America, agree on general goals, but often disagree on method, or become irritated at various different cultural attitudes.

I also think that alignments should be complex, and allowing a great variation and depth in how they are expressed and emphasized, as for example, Lawful Good Elves, while having much in common with Lawful Good Valloreans, will still have considerable differences because they are different races, come from different cultures, have different religions, and grow up with many different personal and community values and philosophies on life. That doesn't mean that either of them are "evil"--but it means that they can be very different from each other, including being frustrated, competitive, jealous, greedy, prideful, stubborn, and passionately opposed to various philosophies or approaches in life--and still both be Lawful Good.

Thus, I'm not surprised when different characters in the group have differences of opinion or philosophy. It's pretty much guaranteed, and it certainly ensures that the interactions and relationships will be complex, diverse, and interesting!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## Maldur

Combining a few of the recent posts you  can say that:

A: the valloreans try to institute the "Pax vallorea" 

B: the US is a bit like the Vallorean empire

Sounds a bit like a very "strong" political comment, hope the moderator dont clamp done on that one 




ps sorry could not help commenting on that.


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## LairdRuari

*Garrett Highhill 'ere*

'ello all and a gooday to ya!!  Garrett Highhill at your service!!  I'm another of the chaps fighting Mallinor in Sharky's world (Halfling 16th lvl 10th rogue/ 6th sorcerer).  I been a readin' all this stuff about this battle and I'm glad to 'ear our boys are giving 'em what for aye.

  I can't says I cotton too much to that Ruari chap though I've not met the bloke me'self.  He sounds like one of those over the top zealots that are always a pushin' Vallorea this an' Vallorea that down yer throat ya know??  Reminds me of this muckety-muck at Naban-Kari after my party returned from a re-con mission in that be-witched forest north of the battle 'ere.  All o' us were near daft after our mission.  We sees Great Shadow Dragons, time-warp portals, crazy animals, vampires, all sorts of nasties a poppin' out 'a nowheres.  Lost near half our party we did, and me'self I lost my true love Nimbarra.  By the gods I shall find her 'an slit the gizzard 'o the bloke who stoles her!!  Anyways, this Vallorean bloke starts barkin' orders this an' orders that and shoves me pal Anghus'(Half-elven 16th lvl ranger) face in the mud like he was a dog or something.  That was the stroke that drove me pal over the edge.  Anghus stood up to the ingrate.  Here we were suffering an' a bleedin' for their bloody "Empire" and this is the thanks and reception we get!!  The whole party was near burned at the stake over the whole mess!!

Me, I likes the elves much more.  I've not met the Lady me'self, but from her letter I believe I would like to.  Anyways, just thoughts I would pop in an' put me spin on things.  I've tagged me some good loot in Sharky's world, an' it sure beats the boredom of me 'ome in the Naban Isles.


Garrett

Go ahead, make fun of halflings, ignore us, ya just makes our jobs easier that way!!


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## SHARK

Greetings!

Great stuff Laird Rauri! Halflings would be where?--if not for the protection that the legions of Vallorea provides?

Maldur--well, I was merely using an example of cultural relationships. Vallorea doesn't have much at all in common with America, certainly, unless you could find some commonality between the ancient Roman Empire, Britain of King Edward's reign, Queen Elizabeth, Puritan America of the 1640's, with a heavy dose of the Inquisition!

Vallorea is a dominant cultural force, which the elves resent, because the Valloreans are so wealthy and powerful, whereas the elves do not have the numbers, wealth, and power to maintain an empire as large as Vallorea, so there is some cultural jealousy. However, unlike many such worlds, the elves are gradually experiencing a cultural resurgence, and are gaining slowly in numbers and power...

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## sword-dancer

Zenon said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I know we (The Bad Guys) are most likely going to lose in the end, but it's great seeing the results of all of the posters efforts in action. *




If the fortress hold them off long enough to accomlplish the mission.
Who had won?


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## Maldur

Shark:  I know I was just commenting on the weird conclusions people can make on threads here 

Sword-dancer:  remember It ain't over until the fat lady sings. And the area isn't secure enough to ship in Opera singers just yet.


Time for phase TWO!!


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## mmadsen

It looks like I've got some catching up to do.  Anyway, it's great to see some of SHARK's acolytes here.  Welcome, Valloreans!  Now, if you'll excuse me, I must plot your deaths...


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## mmadsen

*Re: Laird Ruari Von Christensen, Captain Vallorean Legions, Decorated Hero of Vallorea*



> I, Laird Ruari Von Christensen, Captain of the Vallorean Legions, Decorated Hero of Vallorea, Blessed and Holy Palladin of Ulrich(30th lvl), and one of the slayers of the Great Black Wyrm do hereby offer greetings and sulutations to all Lords and Ladies of En World!



Welcome, Laird Ruari.


> I have been reading this thread with great interest...



I can imagine!  I only hope SHARK has permuted our many fiendish ideas into something still more fiendish -- something you won't expect, even after reading this thread.


> My troops consisted of 147 1st lvl infantry equipped with masterwork chainmail, large shields, and bastard swords; 11 2nd lvl rangers with mty. comp. longbows and +1 arrows; 12 3rd lvl barbarians with greataxes and hvy. picks; and my staff consisting of 5-20th lvl rangers, fighters, and paladins equipped with much less mundane items.



Has SHARK fed us Vallorean propaganda?  Those forces seem...weak.


> While Mallaran pours his troops to the defense of his citadel the bulk of our legions are making for the cities (the real prize).



I was under the impression that we couldn't realistically hold the cities if we wanted to -- but that our Mountain Citadel could repel anything less than a full-fledged siege, complete with magical siege engines.  


> We executed the assault utilizing our glorious Vallorean flying warships to overcome any wards against teleportation into the Citadel.



Flying warships?  How did that one slip past intelligence?


> In a swift manuever we caught our enemy off-balance...



Is anything easier to spot than a fleet of flying warships?  And wasn't the Mountain Citadel already full of troops prepared for war?


> ...but since we could only initially transport half a legion we were quickly outnumbered and taking heavy casualties.



Good!  


> The remaining legion and a half were to be teleported to the ships and the dropped over the LZ.



Dropped?  Via Feather Fall?  Wouldn't archers take their toll?


> I was busy charging down Fire Giants when several of our warships vaporized to grey ash midair.  It was a Great Black Wyrm from another plane unleashed upon my comrades and I in all of its foul wickedness!!



Ouch!


> I was within Ulrich's glory(death) several times(lost 3 fate points) before I even reached the vile Wyrm and plunged my sword into its gizzard with a holy and righteous smite.



"Ulrich's Glory" -- love it!


> Then the Lady Rhiannon vexed the beast with some of her powerful magiks...



"Vexed" -- love it!


> Re-inforcements are now able to safely arrive, we have secured a major LZ in the Citadel including a tower that housed a regiment of Mallaran's Knights.



"LZ" -- that's a bit of an anachronism...

Anyway, you've seized a portion of the larger Citadel then?  Interesting.  In the _étoile_ fortress period, this was enough of a problem that Vauban introduced the detached bastion; seizing a detached bastion didn't mean gaining an opening into the fortress proper.


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## mmadsen

> Rhiannon reminded me of the fleet of flying ships that the Vallorean Empire has, and rolled a high enough Diplomacy check to persuade the High Command to release the fleet for use in the offensive.



Easy enough thing to overlook, a fleet of flying ships. 


> Furthermore, the Guardians of Empire used Rhiannon's father's enchanted island to fly over the citadel.



Equally easy to overlook.


> The upper courtyard was slick with Vallorean blood!



"Slick with Vallorean blood!" -- love it!


> Meanwhile, the assault force of Fire Giants launched barrages of flaming steel balls at the flying ships, shredding them with searing hot steel, and sending several of them, loaded with legionnaires, plunging to their deaths.



Excellent!


> Then, a Pyroclastic Dragon, swept into the courtyard, and slaughtered 1800 Legionnaires almost immediately.



Eek! 


> Later in the first night, the Heavt Assault squads of the army--composed of some 500 Cloud Giants--made an air assault at night which reinforced the besieged Legionnaires.



Why didn't they lead the attack?


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## mmadsen

> Hello All



Welcome, Rhiannon.


> I believe that we surprised SHARK by landing our forces on the uppermost tier of the fortress. Instead of starting off with the weaker defenders, we went straight to the top to hit the big players first.



Lord Malloran will feed SHARK to the dogs for his tactical blundering.  


> Almost immediately upon landing, gates opened and a dozen Tyrannosaurus Rexs came through to wreak havoc.



That is _so_ SHARK.


> Thank you if you suggested this. I was able to cast Dominate Monster on one and now am considering casting Awaken on it.



Again, I think that one's all SHARK.  Someone did suggest lightning-shooting triceratops "tanks" though, I think.


> In game time, our attack is less than 24 hours old so I know much more fun awaits us.



D-Day+1.


> She and He had numerous heated conflicts and at different times he locked her in a tower, locked her in her room, made her clean out the stables, serve him like a servant and tied her out in the courtyard to be whipped by the Captain of the Guard.



I feel a bit...dirty just reading that.


> So not everyone in SHARK'S campaign is a Vallorean sycophant.



Keep fighting the good fight, Rhiannon!


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## SHARK

Greetings!

Well, mmadsen, it's good to see you again! You have to tell me about your trip! E-mail me! 

As for the assault on the fortress, well, there are many things going on!

(1) There are squads of archers that fly about, constantly sniping away at range-of-sight with enchanted bows, causing a constant stream of casualties.

(2) There are numerous boobytraps throughout the fortress, including teleportation traps that have taken more than a few troops to the magma chamber, there to die in burning agony!

(3) The vampires have begun to isolate the incursion to a limited sector of the fortress, while adding additional reinforcements! The vampires attack at night under cover of magical darkness, fog, and the use of Mirror Image when they do strike, before fading back into the night.

(4) The Wang-Liang, along with the force of Ogres, continue to operate as elite striking forces, attacking the lead Vallorean elements while being healed by their clerics who march behind them; after a few savage attacks, they retreat, heal up, rearm, and attack again and again. Of course, the Wang-Liang appear to be Ogres, too, so they aren't especially targetted. Half of the 300 Wang-Liangs are 12th level Sorcerers, and they make liberal use of Mirror Image spells to increase their apparent numbers—which reduce their actual casualties when the Valloreans unleash Chain Lightning spells, or Firebrand spells. Their spells also greatly augment their fellow Wang-Liangs, and Ogres as well, that increase their lethality, as well as their survivability.

(5) The Werewolf forces work closely with Wizards who teleport them into close range to grapple with Vallorean wizards, thus fixing them, while the Vallorean Wizards are targeted en masse by groups of archers, waiting especially to slaughter them with targeted barrages. Meanwhile, out in the frontier, groups of Werewolf Rangers have organized elite groups of human warriors and evil human Druids, who coordinate numerous animal allies in forming ambushes against Vallorean forces in the southern sector, and in the central sector of the front. Because these forces are intimately familiar with the surrounding terrain, their effectiveness is quite out of proportion to their numbers.

(6) On the northern frontier of the front, groups of Bulette/Blue Dragons continue to make devastating assaults upon the advancing Vallorean forces, as they leap into them from underground ambush points, attack and rampage amongst the densely packed ranks of Vallorean cavalry and infantry, before taking flight and escaping! These ambushes are often coordinated with attacks by the Chimeras and the Manticores, who are Improved Invisible/Hasted/Energy Immunity/Mage Armoured.

(7) The two northern cities have been fortified and prepared for sieges. In both cities, 25,000 people were sacrificed in great ceremonies that opened up gates to the Nine Hells, where there are several hundred Devils pouring into the cities, and enhancing the fortifications! In each city, 10,000 people have been made into vampires, and another 25,000 people have been made into skeletons, and enhanced with magic. The remaining civilian population has been harnessed fully into the defenses of the city. Each building, each street, house-by-house, has been booby-trapped and fortified. Elementals have been summoned to augment the defenses, by digging new tunnels, building new walls, kill-zones, barbed towers, and so on. 10 Juggernauts have been deployed; 300 Nimblewright Golems have been deployed with mobile strike forces to make raids against the Vallorean forces; 6 Iron Colossi march towards the Vallorean forces, along with the highly mobile Hobgoblin forces, to intercept the Vallorean armies before their arrival at the cities.

(8) At the fortress, 10 huge Ragewinds have been formed and harnessed by the Demi-Lich commander; These Ragewinds proceed to take a fearful harvest of Vallorean soldiers! 25 Runic Guardians have been deployed, and operate with various wizards in support of the Wang-Liangs; 6 Huge (82 HD)Adamantine Golems and 12 Huge (54 HD) Mithril Golems continue to serve well, fighting alongside the group of Fire Giants.

(9) The forces of Galleran have received some 80,000 Beastmen as reinforcements, and they have been distributed throughout areas needing extra support. Also at the fortress, hordes of Dire Tigers have been used to assault the Vallorean alongside the human defenders.

(10) General Khang-Rhann, the Wang-Liang/Half-Fiend, has used the Rod of The Undying Emperor to transform 240 fallen soldiers into the Regiment of Damnation—a force of relentless Winterwights, who have since deployed throughout the fortress to hamstring Vallorean attacks, and grind them to dark shattered piles of ice! The Regiment of Damnation is commanded by three 30th level Wizards, of which one of them, along with 80 of the terrifying soldiers, have already died. Still, the remaining members of the Regiment of Damnation seek vengeance for their fallen brethren!

The Vallorean forces have managed to hold onto a small toe-hold, and have fortified three large towers that they have captured. The two Legion Standards have kept two of these towers relatively safe from attack by Undead forces, but they have not been taken outside, because the standard bearers have all been slaughtered, and the Standards have been beaten down, and nearly captured by the hordes of Galleran forces that pour forth in fanatical fury to kill all who come near with the Standards, and of course, they seek to capture the Standards!

In the fortress, the Galleran forces have poured so many troops and maintained so much of the high-ground, that they continue to keep the onrushing Vallorean forces closed off, and packed into a smaller space, preventing them from spreading out. The Valloreans are barraged constantly with clouds and clouds of deadly missile fire, which further restricts their mobility, and ability to deploy effectively in the cramped quarters of the fortress courtyards.

The Fire Giants and the Cloud Giants have maintained their ferocious assault, striking, healing, moving, striking again, moving, and so on. Meanwhile, the 500 Vallorean Cloud Giants, brought together as reinforcements, have been cramped together by phalanxes of human warriors wielding halberds, who slow them down, while the archers, from a dozen towers around, and out of reach, proceed to hammer the good Cloud Giants with clouds of deadly missile fire, which in turn has caused the good Cloud Giants to retreat back into the small Vallorean sanctuary, and make more selective attacks. Indeed, while thye have been successful in keeping the Valloreans from being swept off the fortress entirely, they have suffered significant casualties.

Well, there is certainly more to come!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## Zenon

(Whistling, stomping feet and throwing popcorn while waving the Evil flag)

"Go! Go! Go!"

I can't believe that we (The Evil Guys) are managing to hold our own so far!

Winterwights! 240 of them! Wo-hoo!
Juggernauts!
Iron Colossi!
10,000 vampires!
Hundreds of Devil reinforcements!

Yeah!!!

BTW, I love the teleporting the werewolves to grapple spellcasters. 

I told you they'd try right away for the fortress. Time to make them pay for it.

We've got to capture those two Legion Standards that are in jeopardy. They are irreplaceable to the Valloreans! Break them, give them to the Devils to take to the Abyss, something. We have to get as many of those out of the equation as we can.

Keep us posted, SHARK!


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## sword-dancer

Hello SHARK



			
				SHARK said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Semper Fidelis,
> 
> SHARK *






> (2) There are numerous boobytraps throughout the fortress, including teleportation traps that have taken more than a few troops to the magma chamber, there to die in burning agony!



 Steak valnorrea tasty.

Rhiannon and LairdRuari

Welcome


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## mmadsen

> (1) There are squads of archers that fly about, constantly sniping away at range-of-sight with enchanted bows, causing a constant stream of casualties.



Always good, but with a little leadership (and some decent intel), they can concentrate their fire on Vallorean officers.  A few dozen archers with Unholy _whatever_-Bane arrows can take out just about any Champion.


> (2) There are numerous boobytraps throughout the fortress, including teleportation traps that have taken more than a few troops to the magma chamber, there to die in burning agony!



If only they could see what happened to their comrades!  Actually, a magma pool magically disguised as an icy lake sounds like a fun idea -- with "Frost" Giants wading about in it.


> (3) The vampires have begun to isolate the incursion to a limited sector of the fortress, while adding additional reinforcements! The vampires attack at night under cover of magical darkness, fog, and the use of Mirror Image when they do strike, before fading back into the night.



Sounds good.  Since the Valloreans are just establishing their "beachhead", I guess they don't have all their anti-Undead defenses in place yet.


> (4) The Wang-Liang, along with the force of Ogres, continue to operate as elite striking forces, attacking the lead Vallorean elements while being healed by their clerics who march behind them; after a few savage attacks, they retreat, heal up, rearm, and attack again and again.



And they regenerate too!


> Of course, the Wang-Liang appear to be Ogres, too, so they aren't especially targetted.



I'll take credit for that one! 


> Half of the 300 Wang-Liangs are 12th level Sorcerers, and they make liberal use of Mirror Image spells to increase their apparent numbers—which reduce their actual casualties when the Valloreans unleash Chain Lightning spells, or Firebrand spells.



Good tactic.


> (5) The Werewolf forces work closely with Wizards who teleport them into close range to grapple with Vallorean wizards, thus fixing them, while the Vallorean Wizards are targeted en masse by groups of archers, waiting especially to slaughter them with targeted barrages.



Ooh, I like it!


> (6) On the northern frontier of the front, groups of Bulette/Blue Dragons continue to make devastating assaults upon the advancing Vallorean forces, as they leap into them from underground ambush points, attack and rampage amongst the densely packed ranks of Vallorean cavalry and infantry, before taking flight and escaping!



Ah, Bulette/Blue Dragons!  As long as you don't try to imagine where they came from, they're great. 


> (7) The two northern cities have been fortified and prepared for sieges. In both cities, 25,000 people were sacrificed in great ceremonies that opened up gates to the Nine Hells, where there are several hundred Devils pouring into the cities, and enhancing the fortifications! In each city, 10,000 people have been made into vampires, and another 25,000 people have been made into skeletons, and enhanced with magic.



Imagine how quickly you'd volunteer to become a Vampire if you knew they were drafting people into the Skeleton Corps!


> Juggernauts, Nimblewright Golems, Ragewinds, Runic Guardians...



I don't think I even know what those are, but they certainly sound scary.


> (9) The forces of Galleran have received some 80,000 Beastmen as reinforcements, and they have been distributed throughout areas needing extra support. Also at the fortress, hordes of Dire Tigers have been used to assault the Vallorean alongside the human defenders.



Frankly, I can't imagine a horde of cooperating Tigers cresting the hill to attack my unit.  Now let's make 'em 35 feet long!


> (10) General Khang-Rhann, the Wang-Liang/Half-Fiend, has used the Rod of The Undying Emperor to transform 240 fallen soldiers into the Regiment of Damnation—a force of relentless Winterwights, who have since deployed throughout the fortress to hamstring Vallorean attacks, and grind them to dark shattered piles of ice! The Regiment of Damnation is commanded by three 30th level Wizards, of which one of them, along with 80 of the terrifying soldiers, have already died. Still, the remaining members of the Regiment of Damnation seek vengeance for their fallen brethren!



Ooh...


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## mmadsen

> Meanwhile, the 500 Vallorean Cloud Giants, brought together as reinforcements, have been cramped together by phalanxes of human warriors wielding halberds, who slow them down...



How do you find volunteers to "slow down" Cloud Giants?  "Men, take a good look at those 18'-tall Giants.  Right, the silvery fellows with 8' morningstars.  Our job is to slow them down.  Let's get to it!"

Really now, they swing their morningstars for 32 points of damage, multiple times per round.  It's suicide to engage them in melee combat.  I'd try to blend in with the archers, m'self...


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## SHARK

Greetings!

My good friend Dragonblade came to town and stayed with us the previous weekend, and he brought into the game two characters that were very interesting! One was a LVL 20/LVL 20 Monk/Sorcerer, and the other was a LVL 10/LVL 30 Fighter/Paladin. Very cool characters! It was a blast! Dragonblade did an excellent job of role-playing, tactics, combat and everything. It was a great time had by everyone! I will post a more detailed account a bit later.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## mmadsen

> My good friend Dragonblade came to town and stayed with us the previous weekend, and he brought into the game two characters that were very interesting! One was a LVL 20/LVL 20 Monk/Sorcerer, and the other was a LVL 10/LVL 30 Fighter/Paladin.



I'll assume he made them up specifically for your game...


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## SHARK

Greetings!

Indeed mmadsen! He wanted to experience what epic-level campaigning in my world could be like, especially since his own DM often ends their campaigns when they reach 14th or 15th level, and they have to start all over again. Thus, Dragonblade had never played in an epic-level campaign, so I obliged him by having him join the epic-level campaign I have going. I have several other campaigns going, but the characters in those groups are less than 20th level. Everything was very fun though.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## mmadsen

> He wanted to experience what epic-level campaigning in my world could be like, especially since his own DM often ends their campaigns when they reach 14th or 15th level, and they have to start all over again. Thus, Dragonblade had never played in an epic-level campaign, so I obliged him by having him join the epic-level campaign I have going.



Had he read this thread?  I shudder to think of the shock to an ill-prepared player's system... "Wait!  How many Fire Giants?  Armed with _what_?!  What do you mean, I'm already dead?  I'm 40th level!"


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## mmadsen

I was noticing how many different types of evil nasties we have to throw at the Valloreans, and while there are certain synergies there, I was starting to think we should hit them with different waves each day.  Their spellcasters would never quite know what to prepare for that day.  Cold spells against Fire Giants?  Fire spells against Vampires and Wang-Liang?


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## Twinswords

And how are the fearless crusaders doing? Are they dead yet?
Btw the nice flying island isn`t that a nice addition to our army?

Twinswords
Two swords are better then one.


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## Endur

*Evil Tactics*

More Evil Tactics:

From a tactical point of view, I'd probably split my forces into two groups: mobile forces (vampires, were-wolves, flyers, etc.) and non-mobile forces (infantry, etc.).  All the non-mobile forces would fight to the death (and beyond).  All the mobile forces would retreat once the Mountain (or a city) becomes hopelessly lost to the enemy.

I'd use several of the classic epic evil city spells you see in Master of Magic or Heroes of Might and Magic.   I'd also make use of the possession spells from Book of Vile Darkness and use those possessions against the high level heroes.

Area Affect epic spells to protect a fortress or a city

Eternal Darkness: Only the Undead can see (or those with blind sight).  

Zombie Horde: All that die that aren't turned into some other type of undead (i.e. vampire or wight), rise as a zombie in d4 rounds.

Eternal Evil: No spells with the good descriptor can be cast.  Smite Evil and Detect Evil do not function in the area.

Terror Beyond Fear: Anybody not immune to fear immediately flees.

Tom


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## ashockney

I absolutely LOVE this thread!

Shark, you are an inspiration to our group.  We are heading into Epic for the first time, and when we try to envision all the crap that's going to happen, it's tough to get our arms around it.  You're doing a really nice job of helping to illustrate it for us on this thread. 

BTW, in case the thought hadn't occurred to you, the Epic market-segment is WIDE OPEN and there are MANY, MANY unanswered questions that you could "jump into" with any number of d20 publishers and address.  

Book of Vile Darkness.  Check it out.  There is some insane stuff in that book that will HAVE to make an appearance in these battles.




> (10) General Khang-Rhann, the
> Wang-Liang/Half-Fiend, has used the Rod of The
> Undying Emperor to transform 240 fallen soldiers into the Regiment of Damnation—a force of relentless Winterwights, who have since deployed
> throughout the fortress to hamstring Vallorean attacks, and grind them to dark shattered piles of ice!




This is absolutely fabulous.  I threw 1 Winterwight (with minions) at my 18th or 19th level party and it nearly wiped them out.  

240!


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## Ffaeril

*Hello all*

Damn... I only recently started reading the EN boards, and I found this thread 4 days ago.

In that time, I've read the entire first thread and the rest of this thread, and then I get to this last page, and I'm too late to help.

*sigh*

I had this amusing idea that as long as we were playing with epic spells, huge versions of something like Otiluke's Resilient Sphere would be amusing.

First cast one that surrounds not only the fortress, but the enemy army beyond. Now the conflict is completely shut off from the outside world (with the number of spellcasters on our side, we should have the ritual support to make the DCs easily).
Next, cast a second one that surrounds our fortress; now the enemy is unable to touch us and unable to leavel.

Now we fill the area (we shall call it the donut, as that is how it would appear in a cross-section) with water through the liberal use of pre-planted contingency spells like Gates to the Elemental plane of Water and planted items like bottles of endless water.

As long as we maintain the spheres, the Valloreans would all drown.  Just to be amusing, we could have had our epic spellcasters fashion Living Vaults in the Donut zone from which they could make secret forays out to animate the drowned Valloreans, instructing them to 'play dead' until there are huge numbers of them...


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## Maldur

Ffaeril, its never to late to help!
If the valloreans succeed ( And its gonna be hard), there are more fortresses, and more evil armies in SHARKs domains.

As this is the first stronghold attacked in this (military) campaign. I can only imagine what the rest of the evil lands are doing to retaliate this "unprovoked"attack on our sovereign nation.


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## Ffaeril

I'd be interested to know approximately what the output of those gemstone mines is. This fortress seems to be able to generate a significant amount of wealth, and I don't think that the potential for hiring mercenaries has been really explored. Planar mercenaries would be the best, as they'd have no political ties to any existing political entities and wouldn't have any qualms about angering the Valloreans.


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## Oskar

How about the rules from the Stronghold Builder's guide allowing for planeshifting strongholds.

Enchant the fortress (Or the entire valley, if you have enough resources) to shift into Elemental plane of water/fire/dust, the abyss, or maybe the negative energy plane. 
You might want to include a command word/ritual allowing for the fortress' return.

Should make a nice trap.

Make sure you get your own troops out of there. Or if you go for Water/dust or negative plane, you could leave your vampires, constructs,elementals etc to mop up the troops not killed by the planar effects.


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## mmadsen

*Re: Hello all*



> Damn... I only recently started reading the EN boards, and I found this thread 4 days ago.  In that time, I've read the entire first thread and the rest of this thread, and then I get to this last page, and I'm too late to help.  *sigh*



It is an interesting thread, isn't it, Ffaeril?  Welcome to EN World.


> I had this amusing idea that as long as we were playing with epic spells, huge versions of something like Otiluke's Resilient Sphere would be amusing.
> 
> First cast one that surrounds not only the fortress, but the enemy army beyond. Now the conflict is completely shut off from the outside world (with the number of spellcasters on our side, we should have the ritual support to make the DCs easily).
> Next, cast a second one that surrounds our fortress; now the enemy is unable to touch us and unable to leavel.



SHARK would appreciate that this is analogous to some of Caesar's sieges -- only in reverse.  Caesar regularly used double encirclement: one circle, facing in, around the besieged enemy to keep him in, and one circle, facing out, around his own forces to keep enemy reinforcements out.


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## SHARK

Greetings!

Indeed, the northern front is being swallowed up in fierce fighting! The Vallorean forces have swept the area in front of their advance with storms, and have fast columns of enchanted cavalry that are specially equipped with anti-demon and anti-undead weaponry that ride to and fro ahead of the main host, searching out pockets of undead forces, and slaughtering them. These forces strike swiftly, before retreating into enchanted mists. There are numerous evil forces gathering in the shadows and watching, waiting...even as other forces gather their strength, and throw themselves in great, ferocious waves against the Vallorean armies! The deployment of the Bulette/Blue Dragons continue to reap a terrible cost in Vallorean lives, while platoons of heavily armoured evil knights, supported by fanatical devils, sweep in at night and make ferocious attacks to upset the Valloreans and keep them busy at night, where the evil forces are strongest.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## Maldur

Im getting the feeling that this war is becoming more like the:  Immovable object meets the instoppable force. 

Both Superpowers (Vallorean and the Vampire lord) should be careful not to weaken each other to such a point were other "powers" can move in and take on both.

Shark do you have a map of your world ( the part this is taking place)? It might be interesting to see how other nations might effect this struggle. Also how are other borders defended? When this escalates more and more troops will be sucked into this conflict leaving the rest of the nation less defended. How important is this war for both the emperor and our high lord vampire?

Are there more conflicts on the continent(s)? How are other nations reacting to this conflict?


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## mmadsen

> Both Superpowers (Vallorean and the Vampire lord) should be careful not to weaken each other to such a point were other "powers" can move in and take on both.



Ooh, now _that_ could be a great twist, Maldur.  I don't see SHARK letting his Vallorean empire dwindle away though.


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## Maldur

It would not be dwindling, it could be a long draw out fight for survival , two ( or more ) fronts, the only potential ally, a completely evil vampire nation. It could be very epic, and exiting. Also when overrun the vallorean underground rebelion could be a great enviroment for gaming .

But you r right it doesn't sound like SHARK would do that


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## sword-dancer

SHARK said:
			
		

> *Greetings!
> 
> Indeed, the northern front is being swallowed up in fierce fighting! The Vallorean forces have swept the area in front of their advance with storms, and have fast columns of enchanted cavalry that are specially equipped with anti-demon and anti-undead weaponry that ride to and fro ahead of the main host, searching out pockets of undead forces, and slaughtering them.
> Semper Fidelis,
> 
> SHARK *




Hello SHARK

What beasts ride the valnorreans that aren`t afraid of the terror of undead or daemons?
Normally i would sya normal animals including destriers would panick when encountering undead, not to speak from daemons?


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## Maldur

I can only imagine there are a large amount of paladins with their mounts among those cavalry squads. Aura of courage and the interaction of the paladin mounts with regular mounts can keep the cavalry going.


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## mmadsen

> What beasts ride the valnorreans that aren`t afraid of the terror of undead or daemons?  Normally i would sya normal animals including destriers would panick when encountering undead, not to speak from daemons?



I have to agree with Maldur; I doubt the Vallorean cavalry ride steeds afraid of the Vampires, Werewolves, and Demons.  If they did, the Valloreans would've dumped cavalry a long, long time ago.


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## Oskar

Maybe they ride Druids Wildshaped into horses. With the Natural Spell feat so they retain their spellcasting abilities.


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## Maldur

or awakenend horses with paladin levels.

The question is what kind of mount do they get at fourth level?   or do they get wings?


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## Maldur

SHARK, how did the rest of the battle for te mountain fortress go?

Curious mind swant to know


----------

