# Boy, Does It Ever Suck Not Getting Paid!



## John Cooper (Dec 9, 2007)

I've been doing freelance work for several different RPG companies over the last several years, and most of them have been a real pleasure to work for.  However, I've done work for one particular company this year, and they haven't paid me for the last three projects of theirs that I've worked on.  (And no, at this point I don't wish to name the company in question.)  I was originally to have been paid in May.  Then right after GenCon.  Then in November.  I repeatedly send out emails to the company, and they seldon get answered.  When I do get a response, it's with a promise of immediate payment, which at this point has yet to occur.  In fact, this particular company has never paid me for any of the work that I've done for them.  (If you're a company that I've done freelancing work for before and you've ever paid me - even once - then this should reassure you  that no, I'm not talking about you.  The owners of the company in question should know immediately that I'm talking about them when they read this.)

Right now, I'm owed $180.00.  Not a huge sum, granted, but I earned it, I'm entitled to it, and I could certainly use it, especially around this time of year.  I know the people running the company in question check these boards, so hopefully this will be a wake-up call to them.

A continued lack of payment will probably send me looking for legal recourse, and will certainly prevent me from ever working for them again in the future.  (I'm perilously close to that latter point now.)  I'm not looking for another promise of immediate payment of the money they owe me; I'm looking for the actual money.  I'm not interested in stories about what's taken so long to pay me; I'm looking for them to pay me.  I don't want excuses; I want my money.

I think I've been more than patient in this matter, as I've waited over half a year from the time I was originally to have been paid.  Hopefully this public rant will light a fire under their feet.  If not, I may have to do what I can to protect anybody else thinking of working for them and warn them off.  Hopefully it won't come to that.

So, does anybody have any advice as to my options should the company in question continue to ignore their financial obligations?


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## Varianor Abroad (Dec 10, 2007)

What does your contract (if any) say about disputes? If no contract, you can file a small claim. That's tricky if the company is in a different state.

By the way, it sucks that you aren't getting paid. I hope you can work it out and get it!


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## Vigilance (Dec 10, 2007)

In general, there's not a lot you can do, which is unfortunate, but something of a reality.

In the one case I had where I didn't get paid, I elected to do nothing, because the company in question was in dire financial straits (and in fact, is no longer still a going concern).

In that case, as it sounds with yours, I let my enthusiasm get the best of me, and did a second book before receiving payment for the first.

That's suggestion #1 I'd make to any aspiring freelancers out there, and it's been sort of a watchword for me ever since.

Never do work for a company that owes you money. Recognize that your time is money and if you work on book #2 when you haven't seen any cash from book #1 that you're effectively throwing good time after bad. 

Something else I do, if I'm getting paid a set rate for something (as opposed to commission) is ask for partial payment up front. 

This has cost me a couple of freelance gigs in the past, but since I have a company willing to publish anything I hand in, and who has a 100% payment rate for past work (RPGObjects), it's a matter of guaranteeing that a given freelance project will be MORE worth my time than similar work I could do for RPGO.

I realize this isn't necessarily advice that will help you, or someone in your situation, but I guess my point is, that what I've tried to learn from being in this situation and seeing little reasonable discourse, is that I've taken steps to never again BE in that situation. 

Although, I think what you are currently doing also has a chance to get you paid, since I'm sure the company in question doesn't want this to be a topic of discussion in the forums (especially since it's not hard to figure out who exactly you're discussing). 

Chuck


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## RangerWickett (Dec 10, 2007)

I wrote a web enhancement for Mongoose back in 2001. They sent me a check for $15. It was a foreign check, so my bank charged me $20 to deposit it.

Not quite the same, but it's the story I think of whenever I get bitchy about all the money I'm -not- making in the game industry. I had a pretty clear sign right from the start, but I went ahead anyway. 

It's bad form to complain about your employer in public. It's also bad form not to pay your employees. Sometimes a company has no choice, because they have no money. Which is not surprising lately, considering what the 4e announcement has done to sales. I've had to wait to get paid for some recent projects in order to make sure we've paid our contributors. 

I'm not a lawyer so I have no idea what officially should happen, but I was raised to believe that if you agree to pay someone, you pay them, even if it means you have to take a hit to the pocketbook. This is why people should only run game companies if they have the money to lose. It's a lot harder to get pissed at your employer when he has to decide between paying you for "The Complete Book of Tacos" or feeding his five kids.

If you're willing to wait in case their financial position improves, then just wait, but keep in touch with them. I don't recommend going public and naming names, though I can see why it could be a good idea. You warn other freelancers that these folks are unreliable, and you get the cathartic satisfaction of being a d*** to someone you don't like. 

However, if you do decide to do it, don't expect to get paid.


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## John Cooper (Dec 10, 2007)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> It's bad form to complain about your employer in public.



Understood - and I'm going out of my way not to identify the company in question.



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> It's also bad form not to pay your employees. Sometimes a company has no choice, because they have no money. Which is not surprising lately, considering what the 4e announcement has done to sales. I've had to wait to get paid for some recent projects in order to make sure we've paid our contributors.



Unfortunately, the lack of payment predates the 4E announcement. 



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> I don't recommend going public and naming names, though I can see why it could be a good idea. You warn other freelancers that these folks are unreliable, and you get the cathartic satisfaction of being a d*** to someone you don't like.
> 
> However, if you do decide to do it, don't expect to get paid.



I'm not trying to be a d*** about it, and while I certainly dislike not getting paid, I don't dislike the individuals involved.  However, they hired me for specific work, which I provided, and we signed a contract that I was to be paid for such work.  I don't think I'm being unreasonable in expecting to be paid for my work.


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## TheLe (Dec 10, 2007)

John Cooper said:
			
		

> Understood - and I'm going out of my way not to identify the company in question.
> 
> Unfortunately, the lack of payment predates the 4E announcement.
> 
> I'm not trying to be a d*** about it, and while I certainly dislike not getting paid, I don't dislike the individuals involved.  However, they hired me for specific work, which I provided, and we signed a contract that I was to be paid for such work.  I don't think I'm being unreasonable in expecting to be paid for my work.




Go ahead and report it to the BBB -- legally they can't do anything, but it is a start. http://welcome.bbb.org/

`Le


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## kensanata (Dec 17, 2007)

Well, you can always warn your friends via private Email. That's reasonable. But since legal action will problably not get you any money, there's always the hope that you will get paid eventually. All you have to do is not get angry in public.

"In defense of ICE, during the collectible card game boom of the mid-1990s, they finally sent me all the back pay they owed me, and I believe they did the same for all their other freelancers. These were not bad people. They were good people in a bad situation." -- Monte Cook in a footnote


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## TheLe (Dec 17, 2007)

kensanata said:
			
		

> "In defense of ICE, during the collectible card game boom of the mid-1990s, they finally sent me all the back pay they owed me, and I believe they did the same for all their other freelancers. These were not bad people. They were good people in a bad situation." -- Monte Cook in a footnote




This might be true for ICE, but I know a dozen freelancers that never got their money after several years.

In fairness, it goes both ways. I have half a dozen freelancers that has not given me the promised writings/images. Hence I no longer give advances (to unproven freelancers).

`Le


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## Bardsandsages (Dec 17, 2007)

This crap drives me nuts.  It is contrary to everything I know about business.  As a publisher, you should already have a budget set aside for upcoming projects, and not be depending on future money to pay your people.  That's piss poor planning and bad accounting.  Particularly when with PDFs you aren't even talking about that much money to begin with.

And if you don't have the money in your business, you take it out of your pocket.  And if you don't have the money in your pocket YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS PRETENDING TO BE A PUBLISHER. For a $180 the people should use a personal credit card to send you the money via paypal if they have to.  And if they don't have $180 on a credit card, they should release all rights on the work and return it to you to possibly resell to someone else.

The single most valuable piece of advice I ever got about business:  pay your people first, your bills second, and yourself last.


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## John Cooper (Dec 18, 2007)

Status update: I was recently contacted by a member of the company in question (not the same person I'd been dealing with before, who'd been blowing me off repeatedly), with assurances that I'd be paid in full in January.  As this is a new individual being brought into this little saga, I'm more than willing to wait and see if it pans out as I'm being assured it will be.

And if it doesn't, I'll report back in February.  

Thanks to everyone for their support.


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## John Cooper (Mar 1, 2008)

Well, it saddens me (although it doesn't particularly surprise me) to have to report that the second individual I've dealt with from the company in question has proven to be just as unreliable as the first.  My promised payment of $180.00 was to have been delivered in full "sometime in January."  Here it is, over a month past his promised schedule, and I've still got nothing.  Despite repeated emails to both individuals, I've still received no payment, no return emails -- not even any of the false reassurances that payment is just around the corner.

Hey, [Company in Question], are you guys ever planning on paying me, or should I turn this into a Public Service Announcement warning potential freelancers away from your company?  It sucks enough that I've gotten burned by you; I'd hate for others to follow me down the same sad path I find myself currently treading.


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## Piratecat (Mar 1, 2008)

Reading and listening. I hope you get paid.


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## John Cooper (Mar 1, 2008)

You and me both, Piratecat!


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## TheLe (Mar 1, 2008)

John Cooper said:
			
		

> Status update: I was recently contacted by a member of the company in question (not the same person I'd been dealing with before, who'd been blowing me off repeatedly), with assurances that I'd be paid in full in January.  As this is a new individual being brought into this little saga, I'm more than willing to wait and see if it pans out as I'm being assured it will be.
> 
> And if it doesn't, I'll report back in February.
> 
> Thanks to everyone for their support.




If you do not get paid for it, you can resell your writing to someone else. Publishers are more than willing to pay for quality writing (and artwork).

`Le


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## Mouseferatu (Mar 1, 2008)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> It's bad form to complain about your employer in public.




You know what? I think I have to disagree with this--provisionally.

It's _usually_ bad form to complain about your employer in public. However, when you've gone as long as John has without any forward movement, and when you have no viable legal recourse (and let's face it, $180 is too small even for small claims court to be worthwhile), then I'm all for outing the company's name to all and sundry.

If nothing else, you're doing all your fellow freelancers a favor by warning them. And frankly, if freelancers had more of a united voice in the industry, this sort of thing might not happen as often as it does.


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## Napftor (Mar 1, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> If nothing else, you're doing all your fellow freelancers a favor by warning them. And frankly, if freelancers had more of a united voice in the industry, this sort of thing might not happen as often as it does.




Seconded.  We've all been there, John, and after all this time the company deserves to be outed.


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## Goobermunch (Mar 1, 2008)

John,

I'm a lawyer, and I do some employment law (not much, since it's generally not favorable for employees).  Were I in your shoes, I would send a certified letter, return receipt requested to the employer at issue, demanding payment.  That's fancy legalese for a nice, polite letter explaining the work you did, the amount you're owed, summarizing all past correspondence, and kindly asking to be paid.

I would also take a look at the web site for your local state Department of Labor (or Department of Employment or whathaveyou) and see how to file a wage claim.  Many states have expedited administrative procedures that can be used rather than a full blown court battle.  I can understand if you would prefer not to go that route (as it may be viewed as burning some bridges), however, it seems that they aren't interested in maintaining a positive relationship with you.

These are some options you can pursue without crossing the line into full blown litigation (which, given the amounts at issue, may not be worth the time).

Good luck!

--G


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## John Cooper (Mar 2, 2008)

Status update:  Once again, my posting in a Publishers and Press Releases thread seems to have done the trick as far as forcing a response from the company in question.  The second individual finally emailed me back, and I'm to have a check for the full $180.00 by the end of next week.  He also mentioned a personal reason as to what's been been keeping him from checking his email of late (one we need not go into here) -- end result, if I have my check in a week as promised, then fine and good and I'll consider the whole affair done and over.

Otherwise, I believe my allotment of goodwill will have been completely used up, and it'll be time to start naming names and warning away potential future victims.  I'm away on a business trip most of next week, but I'll post here next Saturday with the results either way.

As always, thanks to everyone for their support and advice, and let's all keep our fingers crossed that this ends well.


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## guildofblades (Mar 3, 2008)

>>And if they don't have $180 on a credit card, they should release all rights on the work and return it to you to possibly resell to someone else.<<

Hi John,

Technically speaking, if you haven't been paid for your work as per your contract, then these folks don't have a legal right to use it. Its not simply that they've broken their contract and not paid you, but they are also violating your copyrights.

To that end, you have the option of drawing a line in the sand and demanding payment by such and such date. If you do not get it, you can do the following.

1) Its your copyright still and you are the only one with rights to it. Go ahead and shop that work to someone else and license or sell it.

2) If the first company is actually publishing something that contains your works, they are now doing so illegally. You can seek a court order to get an injunction on those goods to stop them from selling any more of it. After such an injunction, they'll be left with the option of making a deal (and paying) with you, ceasing all sales of that product or breaking the court ruling by continuing to sell it and risking the consequences of such.

Ryan S. Johnson
Guild of Blades Publishing Group
http://www.guildofblades.com
http://www.1483online.com
http://www.ms-crm-consulting.com


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## Justin D. Jacobson (Mar 3, 2008)

Goobermunch said:
			
		

> I would also take a look at the web site for your local state Department of Labor (or Department of Employment or whathaveyou) and see how to file a wage claim.  Many states have expedited administrative procedures that can be used rather than a full blown court battle.  I can understand if you would prefer not to go that route (as it may be viewed as burning some bridges), however, it seems that they aren't interested in maintaining a positive relationship with you.



Just an FYI. Most freelancers are hired on an indepdent contractor basis and would not be covered by most administrative or statutory frameworks that cover employees generally and unpaid "wages" in particular.


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## V_Shane (Mar 4, 2008)

I wish you the best with it!
Several years ago in the RPG industry, it got so bad I began to demand 1/2 upfront for any work I do no matter how small. The rest of course upon completion.
I have had potential clients walk away, and lost a number of "opportunities" but I can honestly say, that all the clients whom have paid upfront, followed through completely.
Not one disappeared. When a client puts money down, they have commited themselves and WANT to see it through.
If they don't, you would at least have a kill fee for your efforts.


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## John Cooper (Mar 8, 2008)

Well, what do you know, here it is a week later and I've progressed no further.  I still haven't been paid, and the guy at the company in question was to have emailed me when he mailed off my check this past week.

No check.  No email.

I'm only posting this because:  1) I said I'd report back today one way or another, and 2) it seems that posting here prompts the individual to respond to my emails.  (They otherwise seem to get ignored.)

So, if nothing else, this posting will hopefully get a response out of the guy I've been dealing with lately.  I just emailed him asking if the check has been sent off, but without this post I hold little hope of him actually replying back to me.

More to follow.


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## Darrin Drader (Mar 8, 2008)

Yeah, that's the sucky part about freelancing. A few years ago I wrote 50,000 words for someone who was to have paid me somewhere in the neighborhood of $1500 for it. Of course financial difficulties hit, the company took a plunge, and my payment ended up being two copies of the book and cover credit.

At this point its too late for recourse and even if I could do something about it, I probably wouldn't since the person in question dealt fairly and honestly with me in the past. I understood the situation he was in and while it pained me to see such a large effort go unpaid, I'd rather just let it go than destroy our friendship over it.

I would be interested in knowing who the publisher is in your case so I can steer clear.


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## Mouseferatu (Mar 8, 2008)

Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> Yeah, that's the sucky part about freelancing. A few years ago I wrote 50,000 words for someone who was to have paid me somewhere in the neighborhood of $1500 for it. Of course financial difficulties hit, the company took a plunge, and my payment ended up being two copies of the book and cover credit.




Yeah, I had a similar experience myself. Some of you are familiar with the Lion's Den PDF called "Planar Factions." Well, that was originally written for Dark Nebulae, with the understanding that it was going to be a print product with a pretty reasonable pay rate. Of course, the company simply up and vanished--without, I should point out, ever notifying me of their intent to do so--and while it's done reasonably well for me as a PDF, I haven't made _remotely_ as much off of it as I would have under the original contract.

Thankfully, that's my only true payment-based horror story to date. *knock on wood*


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## John Cooper (Mar 12, 2008)

Status update:  I received a money order for $60.00 in the mail today from the company in question.  I'm a third of the way there!


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## DaveMage (Mar 12, 2008)

Were you expecting $60 or $180?


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## Orcus (Mar 13, 2008)

John Cooper said:
			
		

> I'm not trying to be a d*** about it, and while I certainly dislike not getting paid, I don't dislike the individuals involved.  However, they hired me for specific work, which I provided, and we signed a contract that I was to be paid for such work.  I don't think I'm being unreasonable in expecting to be paid for my work.




You absolutely should be paid. Insist on it. 

Your contract should set forth the terms. If they dont pay, take action. Period. I say that as a publsiher. There is way too much b*** s*** in this industry and too many freelancers get taken advantage of because of this "hey, its gaming, and were all gamers, and i did get something published in the game industry..." Dont buy into that. You did the work. You get paid. Guess what, they got paid. Maybe they mismanaged their business, but that is their problem. 

They got what you were supposed to give them--the work. Now its time for them to give you what they are supposed to give you--the money. 

Dont feel bad about it for a second and dont let them guilt you into waiting. 

Clark


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## Orcus (Mar 13, 2008)

guildofblades said:
			
		

> To that end, you have the option of drawing a line in the sand and demanding payment by such and such date. If you do not get it, you can do the following.
> 
> 1) Its your copyright still and you are the only one with rights to it. Go ahead and shop that work to someone else and license or sell it.
> 
> 2) If the first company is actually publishing something that contains your works, they are now doing so illegally. You can seek a court order to get an injunction on those goods to stop them from selling any more of it.




I dont know what your contract says, but I'll tell you what: if I was you, I would write a letter indicating that you were intending to do either or both of the above. I dont know what your contract says, but it is likely work for hire. They need to pay up or they may not have the rights to use the work you did (again, this is not legal advice and I have not seen your contract). 

And, if I were you, I would post their name here. That is BS.

Clark


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## Orcus (Mar 13, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> You know what? I think I have to disagree with this--provisionally.
> 
> It's _usually_ bad form to complain about your employer in public. However, when you've gone as long as John has without any forward movement, and when you have no viable legal recourse (and let's face it, $180 is too small even for small claims court to be worthwhile), then I'm all for outing the company's name to all and sundry.
> 
> If nothing else, you're doing all your fellow freelancers a favor by warning them. And frankly, if freelancers had more of a united voice in the industry, this sort of thing might not happen as often as it does.




I'm with the fanged rodent on this. Big time. The threat of outing is some of the best leverage you have. Cause guess what, they already have your work. 

I say out them. Truth is not slander. 

Besides, they all have credit cards or other access to money. Sure, it might hurt them to get it, but they can get it. You think they arent buying groceries or game books or going to movies or renting movies or buying videogames? You have any idea how much disposable income they have spent on stuff other than paying you since they said they couldnt pay? I guarantee it is more than what they owe you. 

They are also probably either not incorporated or havent kept appropraite corporate form, which means even if the have a company name each of the business partners of the company is PERSONALLY liable to you. I bet they dont want a recorded small claims judgment against each of their personal names. That would f*** a guy's credit up. 

Presuming what you are saying is true and undisputed (and I have only heard your side), then I'm calling out whatever publisher it is that did this: If you dont pay this guy, you are a bunch of chumps. Period. 

Pay or get tarred and feathered. 

Clark


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## Orcus (Mar 13, 2008)

OK, I've calmed down now. 

I hope you get paid. 

If you dont, I'll help you find a lawyer.


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## John Cooper (Mar 13, 2008)

DaveMage:  I had received an email last week from the second individual in the company in question letting me know that he was sending me $60.00 now and the rest later.  So I expect I'll eventually get my full $180.00, just in $60.00 "chunks."

Orcus:  I appreciate the offer and the support.  I don't think a lawyer will be necessary, and for now at least, I don't want to release the name of the company in question.  Again, I think these are basically decent people running a small RPG company with a lot more enthusiasm than business sense.  They didn't see anything wrong with paying me from the proceeds of the PDF sales, and when those dried up after the 4E announcement didn't really have a backup plan.  The first person I dealt with was particularly aggravating, since her response to my plight seemed to be "if I ignore him long enough maybe he'll go away," but the second person I've been dealing with seems to want to do the right thing.  They've currently got some financial issues due to a complication we need not go into, but it seems like I'll be getting $60.00 per payday until I'm paid up.  It sucks that it's taken this long for me to get the money that was owed me, but at least it looks like I'll be paid up within a month.

More to follow as it unfolds.


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## Mark (Mar 13, 2008)

I do not see where you say one way or another, and other people seem to be assuming otherwise, but I am guesing that the work you did was more in the vein of editing rather than writing or artwork, and therefore it is not something you can simply resell to another company.  Is this the case?


Anyway, you are handling this just like the gentleman you are and have always shown yourself to be.  I do not think that anyone could reasonaby fault you if, at some point, you decided you have waited long enough for the balance and need to escalate to sterner measures.


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## John Cooper (Mar 13, 2008)

Mark:  Yeah, it was an editing job (well, actually, three of them in a row).


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## Orcus (Mar 14, 2008)

Best of luck. I hope you get paid. Your options are a bit more limited as the editor rather than the writer of the content. But you still deserve to get paid.


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## John Cooper (May 17, 2008)

Sigh.  I was hoping I wouldn't have to resort to this same old tired song and dance routine, but it's been over two months now since I was paid the first $60.00, and the individuals in question aren't responding to email.  So, once again I get to resort to posting here, where they will undoubtedly see this issue being paraded around on the Publishers and Press Releases forum, and hopefully decide to pay me another chunk of the $120.00 they still owe me.

So, what do you say, [name withheld for now]?  It's been over 60 days - have you managed to save up a dollar a day so you can pay me the next 60 bucks you owe me?  Just think how much happier we'll all feel once this whole thing is behind us.

I hope to hear from you soon.


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## Wulf Ratbane (May 17, 2008)

This is ridiculous. (I mean them, not you.)

How many times are you going to let them call your bluff?


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## Deset Gled (May 17, 2008)

I've really got to give you credit for being as patient as you have been.  If I were in your shoes, I would have posted the company's name long ago.

The fact that they paid you a partial fee actually makes me very suspicious.  IANAL, but I believe that paying you partially may make it more difficult for you to go through legal channels to get paid the rest, since it is now a dispute about how much you are supposed to be paid instead of a case of outright non-payment.


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## Admiral Caine (May 17, 2008)

Wow..  I've never read this thread before. It's kinda macabre, like a slow motion train wreck.

I'm not a freelancer, I'm just a consumer..

But I hope Mr. Cooper gets his money. If not, I'm coming back here with popcorn for the big reveal. Then I'm telling everyone I know.


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## Piratecat (May 17, 2008)

At this point, John, I'd argue that revealing the name of the deadbeats is more important than the remaining $120.


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## Aus_Snow (May 17, 2008)

I respect your patience. And your superb editing, by the way. 

All the same, I'd like to know who I should be boycotting. But I do understand, $120 ain't nothing. Hope it (finally) works out. :\


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## Wulf Ratbane (May 17, 2008)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> At this point, John, I'd argue that revealing the name of the deadbeats is more important than the remaining $120.




Maybe he should just auction off the rights to know.   

Make a patronage project out of it. I'm good for $20.


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## PatrickLawinger (May 17, 2008)

*Ouch*

John,

I hate to say it, but I am owed a total of thousands of dollars from a variety of projects over the past 8+ years. Like you, I never publicly "outed" the companies in question. I do admit to private discussions with some other freelancers though.

In some cases you can consult a collection agency, but with your sum of money it probably isn't worth it. The agency usually claims about 20% of what they finally collect (sometimes higher when it is smaller amounts). It is a hassle, but this did work for me in a complicated situation when one company bought another, and then sold "assets" off to a third company. In that case I also paid a legal consultant so in the end I collected about 60% of what I was owed, but as I was owed $2,200 it was significantly more than $0.

Last year I spoke to the owner of one company in person while at GenCon, and stood there with him while he wrote the check.

Efforts to collect CAN pay off, but more often than not, if a company isn't paying, they just aren't paying. Some companies do have a reputation for paying slowly. When you are dealing with smaller sums of money, the hassle to try to collect tends to be less and less worth it. Every year at tax time I review the contracts that I still haven't been paid for. I get furious each and every time.

As someone starting my own .pdf company, I have made an effort to insure I pay people on time (or early as I still don't have releases ready).  This is due to my own experiences of not being paid. My motto is, "I pay like crap, but at least I'll pay you!"

Good luck,
Patrick


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## Mark (May 17, 2008)

John Cooper said:
			
		

> Mark:  Yeah, it was an editing job (well, actually, three of them in a row).





If it was primarily OGC, except for some parts added by you, then you might be able to find a buyer for the balance of what is owed to you.


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## Mouseferatu (May 17, 2008)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> At this point, John, I'd argue that revealing the name of the deadbeats is more important than the remaining $120.




Agreed.


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## BSF (May 17, 2008)

As a consumer, I would be interested in knowing.  If I am buying product that is lining somebody's pocket while contract work is not being paid, then I have no interest in buying the product.

Of course, it could be that nobody is buying the product and the loss of non-existent sales won't mean anything.  

However, it would be interesting to know the company so I can watch the principals.  If you aren't being paid and any of the principals forms a new company, I would be interested in avoiding product from the new company as well.  

It is a small market, but you deserve to be paid.  As contract work, you are not responsible for their ability/inability to make sales.  If they don't intend to pay you, then perhaps public shaming is the only real recourse.


----------



## Klaus (May 17, 2008)

John,

I certainly know how you feel. At one time I was approached by one of the larger d20 companies with an emergency request of 3 color illustrations for $100. The deadline was really tight, like two days or so. Wanting to impress the company, I did the pictures.

A while later I e-mailed the Art Director who contacted me to ask if I could get a copy of the product my pictures were in, and asking when I might expect the payment. Embarassed, he said they never used my pictures, but as a sign of good faith and as an apology for not contacting me, he would pay me the $100 nevertheless.

Well, he didn't. And that was two years ago.


----------



## John Cooper (May 18, 2008)

Well, once again, posting here worked: I got a response from the second individual I've been dealing with, the one who appears to me to genuinely want to resolve the situation fairly.  I've been promised payment of the full $120.00 by the end of June.  (He tells me he'll be dipping into his tax refund and/or economic stimulus package.)  I really want to believe him, because he seems like a decent guy caught up in a situation somewhat beyond his ability to control (despite it also being one of his - and his company partner's - own making).

So, this is their last chance.  On July 1st, I'll go public with their names if I haven't received my payment by then.  If I get my payment before then, I'll post here so everyone knows the situation's been resolved.

Thanks to everyone once again for their support, and if you don't hear anything before then...stayed tuned for a final post on July 1st.


----------



## Ebonyr (May 19, 2008)

After reading this thread, I have to admire your patience John. However, I'm glad that your going to take a stand on July 1st. I'll mark it on my calendar.


----------



## TheAuldGrump (May 19, 2008)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> Maybe he should just auction off the rights to know.
> 
> Make a patronage project out of it. I'm good for $20.



That's no way to handle it!

Use the $20 to start a pool instead.... 

The Auld Grump


----------



## joela (May 19, 2008)

*economic stimulus*



			
				John Cooper said:
			
		

> I've been promised payment of the full $120.00 by the end of June.  (He tells me he'll be dipping into his tax refund and/or economic stimulus package.)




If it's the latter, prepare your post. Unless he's getting the amount electronically, he may not see a check in the mail until the third or even fourth quarter this year.

I'm definitely keeping an eye out on this post. Having worked both as a free-lancer and, now, managing a team of freelancers, prompt payment -- or at least contact -- is a simple sign of good business sense. I'm sorry that this company is having problems, but they don't call business "cut throat" for nothing, and they'll discover that if they don't pay up and force you to make your post. You definitely have been more than patient with them and if I discover I have any of this company's products, I'll be quickly voting with my dollars bills what I think of such policies (and heaven help them if their products are in my review queue....)


----------



## Admiral Caine (May 19, 2008)

*John Cooper Must Get Paid!*



			
				joela said:
			
		

> You definitely have been more than patient with them and if I discover I have any of this company's products, I'll be quickly voting with my dollars bills what I think of such policies (and heaven help them if their products are in my review queue....)




Amen Jolea!

Pay the man! The trouble you save will be your own! I'm already dying to know but I'd rather the guy get paid than actually find out.


----------



## Bardsandsages (May 20, 2008)

John Cooper said:
			
		

> Well, once again, posting here worked: I got a response from the second individual I've been dealing with, the one who appears to me to genuinely want to resolve the situation fairly.  I've been promised payment of the full $120.00 by the end of June.  (He tells me he'll be dipping into his tax refund and/or economic stimulus package.)  I really want to believe him, because he seems like a decent guy caught up in a situation somewhat beyond his ability to control (despite it also being one of his - and his company partner's - own making).
> 
> So, this is their last chance.  On July 1st, I'll go public with their names if I haven't received my payment by then.  If I get my payment before then, I'll post here so everyone knows the situation's been resolved.
> 
> Thanks to everyone once again for their support, and if you don't hear anything before then...stayed tuned for a final post on July 1st.




They ALWAYS seem like decent guys...The best con men are the ones that can convince you they are "sacrificing" to pay you.  But really, if he had budgeted his projects correctly he wouldn't be reaching into his pocket.  And even if he is, he shouldn't even be mentioning it to you.  It's an attempt to get sympathy.

I've said this before, but the best advice I ever got regarding business was from a vacuum sales owner.

"Pay your people first, your bills second, and yourself last.  Then you never get in trouble."

This whole thread should be an object lesson for anyone thinking about starting their own business.  Set a budget you can afford to pay now, not based on sales you think you will get later.  Don't offer to pay more than you can.  

And by all means, don't screw with John Cooper!


----------



## John Cooper (Jun 24, 2008)

Here's an email I just sent to the party in question.







> [Name Withheld],
> 
> I just thought I would mention that it is now one week from the first of July, and I have yet to see the $120.00 you still owe me.  You'd best be getting  a check in the mail, pronto, because if I don't have my payment (in full) on June 30th, then I'm going public with the name of your company on the EN World thread on July 1st.  Please note that I must have the $120.00 in my personal possession by June 30th, not your lame assurances that the check has been mailed.
> 
> ...



We'll see if it has any effect.  Otherwise, I'll be back on this thread a week from today.


----------



## joela (Jun 24, 2008)

*email*



			
				John Cooper said:
			
		

> Here's an email I just sent to the party in question.We'll see if it has any effect.  Otherwise, I'll be back on this thread a week from today.




Thanks for the update.


----------



## xmanii (Jun 24, 2008)

I am really curious as to who it is now.


----------



## Orcus (Jun 24, 2008)

Dont forget to charge interest when you file your small claims action.  

Clark


----------



## dmccoy1693 (Jun 24, 2008)

John Cooper said:
			
		

> Here's an email I just sent to the party in question.  We'll see if it has any effect.  Otherwise, I'll be back on this thread a week from today.




I salute your patience as well as your actions.


----------



## Spinachcat (Jun 24, 2008)

Wow.  I am not sure if it is more horrifying that some "publisher" can't fork over $180 bucks or that the payment for three editing jobs in this industry is only $180 bucks.  

I know we want to emulate REH and HPL, but how did we get stuck with their per-word rates?   And what's this noise about people not paying half up front?   Throw me the idol and I throw you the whip. 

I have been involved in multiple lawsuits against non-paying clients over the years, so I know how frustrating that can be so I sympathize with the situation.  You are FAR more polite about the non-payer than I would be.   I only give 90 days and then its hammer time. 

Good luck!  Hopefully, they will pay up quickly.


----------



## Joshua Randall (Jun 25, 2008)

John, you are now the chump here. You've repeatedly let these deadbeats off the hook by repeatedly issuing ultimatums and then not following through.

You have three choices now.

(1) Pursue legal action to get your money.
(2) Forget about the money. Out the company here for satisfaction.
(3) Forget about the money and don't do anything else.

Continuing to issue toothless threats, however, is not accomplishing anything.


----------



## Alzrius (Jun 25, 2008)

John, you've been FAR more patient than I would have been. As it stands now, you've been waiting over a year for your money, and they've only given you a third of it. There's really no excuse for such behavior from a publisher, particularly one that owes you such a small amount. Just be ready to publicly let them have it when the check doesn't arrive in your mailbox July 1st.

On a separate note, I've been looking back over your work, and the timing of this thread versus when some of your products were released. I now think I have a pretty good idea of who the company at fault is (I won't say it here though, in case I'm wrong).


----------



## Eytan Bernstein (Jun 25, 2008)

This kind of thing has only happened to me once. I wrote a book for a company that I handed in early 2006. It was never released (having nothing to do with quality) and I was never paid. And this is over $1,000 worth of writing. There definitely needs to be a place where RPG industry professionals can talk freely about this kind of thing. I've thought about starting a google group or yahoo group, but I'm not sure if it's worth the trouble.


----------



## John Cooper (Jun 26, 2008)

Joshua Randall said:
			
		

> John, you are now the chump here. You've repeatedly let these deadbeats off the hook by repeatedly issuing ultimatums and then not following through.
> 
> You have three choices now.
> 
> ...



Actually, I'm in the midst of (2) on your list above, but our most recent agreement was that I would be paid in full (the $120.00 they still owe me) by the end of June.  My previous post was a one-week-out reminder to the company in question that time was running out on our already-agreed-upon deadline.  If I'm not paid by June 30th, then I "out" the company on July 1st.  However, I feel honor bound to give them the full amount of time we jointly agreed upon to hold up their end of the bargain.  And if they choose not to, then they already know the consequences of their actions (or, perhaps more accurately, their lack thereof).

Sincerely,

John Cooper
AKA "The Toothless Chump"


----------



## John Cooper (Jun 26, 2008)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> On a separate note, I've been looking back over your work, and the timing of this thread versus when some of your products were released. I now think I have a pretty good idea of who the company at fault is (I won't say it here though, in case I'm wrong).



That's a good call on your part, because I'm afraid I would neither confirm nor deny any guesses on your (or anybody else's) part.

Well, at least for another week.


----------



## mikelaff (Jun 26, 2008)

Eytan Bernstein said:
			
		

> This kind of thing has only happened to me once. I wrote a book for a company that I handed in early 2006. It was never released (having nothing to do with quality) and I was never paid. And this is over $1,000 worth of writing. There definitely needs to be a place where RPG industry professionals can talk freely about this kind of thing. I've thought about starting a google group or yahoo group, but I'm not sure if it's worth the trouble.





There are resources and discussion groups for fiction writers to visit that discuss which magazines, agents and publishing houses are good markets, which take forever to respond to a submission and which ones don't live up to their obligations or are actively running scams.

It'd be handy if there were something similar for RPG freelancers.  It'd be great if there were a way to get the word out about companies and individuals to avoid - just in the interest of cutting down on some of the fraud and trampling of creator rights that (at times) appears too prevalent in this business.


----------



## GMSkarka (Jun 27, 2008)

mikelaff said:


> It'd be handy if there were something similar for RPG freelancers.




There is/was, sort of.

I started the mailing list RPGFreelance back in 1999, originally to be just such a group.   It was just going to be restricted-access, confidential, for working freelancers.

Early on, somebody violated our confidentiality and forwarded emails from the list to one of the publishers being discussed (Last Unicorn Games).   This resulted in 'blacklisting' and other reprisals by the publisher (and friends of theirs who ran other publishing operations).

I eventually gave up and opened the list to everyone, given that its original purpose was now impossible.   It now functions (barely) as a place where publishers can post calls for freelancers, etc.

Sadly, I think that any effort to start up a place for Freelancers to share their experiences will be met with the same sort of resistance from some corners of the industry.


----------



## mikelaff (Jun 27, 2008)

GMSkarka said:


> There is/was, sort of.
> 
> I started the mailing list RPGFreelance back in 1999, originally to be just such a group.   It was just going to be restricted-access, confidential, for working freelancers.
> 
> ...




Ah - that's too bad it went down that way.


----------



## Deset Gled (Jun 30, 2008)

Anybody else out there waiting anxiously for an update?  This cliffhanger has been more suspenseful that half of the X-files' season finales!


----------



## kcmopd1913 (Jun 30, 2008)

Deset Gled said:


> Anybody else out there waiting anxiously for an update?  This cliffhanger has been more suspenseful that half of the X-files' season finales!




Well yes. This story has got me waiting also. Just can't believe he waited thiis long! Though we probably won't hear anything until tomorrow the 1st (depending on time zones).


----------



## Alzrius (Jul 1, 2008)

I figure we'll have to wait until after John checks his mail tomorrow, and since (as mentioned) we're not sure what time zone he's in, we might not know until the end of the day.

I still think I've guessed the company and the products in question. Since it seems impolite to say so before the name is revealed, I'll mention only this clue to my guess: the company's name has three words.


----------



## Allensh (Jul 1, 2008)

ICE owed me $50 for an article published in Hero System Almanac #1 and to this day I have never seen that money, nor did I ever get any copies of the book.

Allen


----------



## JoeGKushner (Jul 1, 2008)

Allensh said:


> ICE owed me $50 for an article published in Hero System Almanac #1 and to this day I have never seen that money, nor did I ever get any copies of the book.
> 
> Allen




At least ICE had the "benefit" of doing the whole bankrupcy thing eh?


----------



## DItheringFool (Jul 1, 2008)

Alzrius said:


> I still think I've guessed the company and the products in question. Since it seems impolite to say so before the name is revealed, I'll mention only this clue to my guess: the company's name has three words.



My guess was two...are you counting the word "Publishing"?


----------



## dmccoy1693 (Jul 1, 2008)

Watching, Waiting, Wondering.


----------



## Alzrius (Jul 1, 2008)

DItheringFool said:


> My guess was two...are you counting the word "Publishing"?




Yeah, that's the third word. And the products in question are alliterative.


----------



## TheLe (Jul 1, 2008)

"The Le Games" is three words -- I hope those bastiches rot.

.

.

.

.

.


----------



## joela (Jul 2, 2008)

*tlg*



thele said:


> "the le games" is three words -- i hope those bastiches rot.
> 
> .
> 
> ...




lol :d



Alzrius said:


> Yeah, that's the third word. And the products in question are alliterative.




Huh. John hasn't been paid for six months and there's this company that hasn't been heard from the last six months.


----------



## John Cooper (Jul 2, 2008)

Well, here we are on the 1st of July and I still haven't received my $120.00.  The individual I've been dealing with at the company in question did email me last week, hoping to extend the deadline once again by a week or so.  I told him I had had enough of deadline extensions, and since he was the one who had promised payment by the end of June, I was not interested in extending it any further.  Last night he emailed me again, hoping to find a way to get me my money overnight, but his suggestions didn't work for me (I don't have a PayPal account, and Western Union is problematic for me).  Since the post office was already closed by the time I read his email, I seriously didn't expect my money to have gotten to me today, and how about that - it didn't.

So, for the record, the "company in question" I've been referring to over the course of this thread is Dog Soul Publishing.  The first individual I was dealing with - the one who constantly offered me payment, then neglected to pay me and ignored all my attempts to contact her until I started up this thread - is Deborah Balsam.  The second person I've been dealing with is Sean Frolich.

In February 2007, Deborah contacted me with an idea she had come up with: having seen several of my reviews, she was impressed with my ability to find and correct stat block errors, and thought a "Cooper's Corrected Creature Codex" would be a good product line, wherein I would go through the monster portion of the SRD and fix up any stat block errors.  I agreed to do it, and she drew up a contract wherein I would be paid $60.00 for each of the PDFs in the series.  She originally envisioned that a new entry in the series would be released every two weeks.

So I started going through the SRD.  For each letter of the alphabet, I would send Deborah a Word document with my changes made and my "Cooper's Comments" sidebars explaining why I had changed what I did.  She in turn would turn it into a PDF.  Fortunately, part of my stipulation in doing the series was that she would send the "finished" PDF to me before it was released to the public for sale, because I had gotten burned years before by a different PDF company who didn't bother making all of my changes because they didn't think they were important.  (They were important to me: my name was listed as "proofreader/editor," and I hated the fact that there were known errors that I had pointed out but were left in the product nonetheless.)  When I received the initial "finished" A-C PDF, I typed up a list of the additional changes that had to be made, she made most of them, I sent back a list of the things she had missed, and so on, back and forth, until I was satisfied with the finished product.  (Despite the fact that I had already made my changes to the original Word document from the SRD, there are some things that can't be checked until the document has been converted to a PDF: things like hyphenation of a word split between two lines, proper spacing between entries, standardization of font sizes and styles, proper location and placement of sidebars, correct page numbering, and so on.)  Let's just say that the first PDF she sent to me was...way below my expectations of quality.

At that point it was pretty obvious that the "new PDF every two weeks" was not going to happen.

In any case, determined to do my part to keep the process rolling, I finished up the monster portion of the SRD through the letter "Z," sending each file to Deborah for eventual conversion to a PDF and subsequently (after my tweaking) a finished product.  Right as I was about to start the Animals and Vermin appendices, I realized I had yet to be paid for any of the PDFs that had been released thus far.  Deborah originally promised payment in May 2007, then immediately after GenCon, and then, after 4E was announced and PDF sales pretty much dried up, "as soon as she could."  Around November, after getting no responses to my emails, I finally started up this thread, and shortly thereafter Sean was assigned to dealing with me.

I think all of the next part of the story is pretty much summed up, in stages, in the earlier parts of this thread.  And that takes us to today, when, after over a year of promised payment for the work that I did (actually, not even that; just the work that I did that was subsequently published), I still have only been paid for one of the three PDFs in the "Cooper's Corrected Creature Codex" series.

I'll leave it for Sean and Deborah to explain their inability to pay me what they owed me, should they desire to do so; while I know the reasons they gave me, I don't feel it's my place to broadcast that information.

So, where does that leave us?  To begin with, I refuse to do any further work for Deborah, Sean, or Dog Soul Publishing.   This means that the "Cooper's Corrected Creature Codex" series will never be completed, which is a real shame, because I was really looking forward to the finished series, and I think it would have been a very valuable tool for those who are interested in correct stat blocks.  But oh well.  I asked Sean and Deborah to delete the remaining files I had sent them, and informed them that they were not to produce any further entries in the "Cooper's Corrected Creature Codex" series, because I would not be doing any pre-release PDF proofreading/editing and did not want my name associated with any product that I had not done any final checking on.  (Nor, based on that initial "finished" A-C PDF Deborah had sent me, was I in any way convinced that the desired level of quality would be maintained without my involvement.)

As a final note on the "Cooper's Corrected Creature Codex" line, I'd like to personally thank Claudio Pozas for the cool cover he did for the PDFs, featuring me in all of my bearded glory, sitting hunched over a tome of monsters while a trio of creatures stands in line waiting their turn.  Thanks again, Claudio!  (And I hope you were paid for your work!)

And finally, while I personally will have no further dealings with Dog Soul Publishing, and hope that any freelancers who are interested in working for Dog Soul Publishing will learn from my mistakes, I would also hope that Sean and Deborah have learned some valuable lessons about how to (and, perhaps more importantly, how _not_ to) run an RPG publishing company.  Hoping to pay your freelancers from the proceeds of their work just isn't a very good idea.  I fully expect that they will be changing their business practices and this won't be a problem in the future.

However, I hope I'll be forgiven for not testing this theory myself.

I'll post here again when I finally get the $120.00 still owed me, just to close the loop on this whole deal.  Despite everything, I still believe that Sean wants to do the right thing, and will do so when he's able.


----------



## Alzrius (Jul 2, 2008)

I'd hoped that things would turn out differently. Sadly, this is a story without surprises, and I think a number of us figured out who the company was and what the products were well in advance.

By the way, John, they're Dog Soul _Publishing_, not Dog Soul _Press_. Sorry to nitpick - it's the editor in me (I'm sure you understand ).



			
				John Cooper said:
			
		

> This means that the "Cooper's Corrected Creature Codex" series will never be completed, which is a real shame, because I was really looking forward to the finished series, and I think it would have been a very valuable tool for those who are interested in correct stat blocks.




This is truly saddening, as I *really* wanted to see the rest of those products.

John, is there any possibility that you'd be willing to complete the series with a different company? They wouldn't be able to use the name "Cooper's Corrected Creature Codex" to be certain, but there shouldn't be any reason why they can't put out corrected entries for monsters from the SRD. Heck, since the SRD is all OGC, they could even reprint the existing work you did on the line (that is, monster for A-G) under a different title. I know some companies - ones who'd make sure to pay you - who'd be happy to work with you if you want to put your work to good use.



> _I asked Sean and Deborah to delete the remaining files I had sent them, and informed them that they were not to produce any further entries in the "Cooper's Corrected Creature Codex" series, because I would not be doing any pre-release PDF proofreading/editing and did not want my name associated with any product that I had not done any final checking on. (Nor, based on that initial "finished" A-C PDF Deborah had sent me, was I in any way convinced that the desired level of quality would be maintained without my involvement.)_




I hope you also asked them to immediately cease selling the PDFs of "D" and "E-G" since they have yet to pay you for them, meaning they're selling and profiting off of your work, which they do not own.


----------



## Vigilance (Jul 2, 2008)

Chuck's First Law of Freelancing: Never write a second book until you've been paid for the first.

I've not gotten paid twice, by the same company. I don't regret writing the FIRST book for them nearly as much as I do the SECOND.


----------



## John Cooper (Jul 2, 2008)

Alzrius: Yeah, it's Dog Soul Publishing, not Press.  What can I say?  It's late, I'm tired, and I lost my entire post after an hour and a half of playing around with the wording and had to start all over from scratch.  I went back and edited my post above, though - thanks for the correction.  I don't like my work to have errors in it, even if it is just a message board thread post.  

And I certainly wouldn't be adverse to completing the series under a different title with a different publisher, should there still be any interest in such a product.  It seems as if quite a lot of publishers are moving on to 4E.

And no, I didn't ask Sean and Deborah to stop sales on "D" and "E-G" - I figured the more money they made from those sales, the more likely I'd finally get paid.  Foolish, perhaps, but I was still giving them the benefit of the doubt.  Again, I don't think either of them was being devious or underhanded, so much as inexperienced.

Vigilance:  Believe me, I'll be adopting your First Law of Freelancing in all of my future dealings.    Live and learn.


----------



## Mark (Jul 2, 2008)

Sad news.  I have an idea, though, and have sent you and email, John.


----------



## Nikosandros (Jul 2, 2008)

Are the fellows running the company destitute? Can't they take $120 out of their pockets and pay John?


----------



## dmccoy1693 (Jul 2, 2008)

Sorry to hear this John.  I was really hoping that you'd come back and say, "Hey guys, I got paid."  You, sir, have demonstrated a real feat of patience and restraint.  I still hope you get paid.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Jul 2, 2008)

Hell, I'd pay John $120 bucks just to get it into the OGC wiki.


----------



## Napftor (Jul 2, 2008)

This is a shame as I had heard good things about Dog Soul in the past.  I had good (if brief) dealings with them when they produced their Katrina charity pdf but then that didn't involve any money of course.    Best of luck getting your money, John, and thumbs up from this publisher for your elegant perseverance.


----------



## Klaus (Jul 2, 2008)

I'm sad things went this way, John (and it was a real fun making that cover). Deb and Sean have been off the radar even at CircvsMaximvs, and last I heard Deb herself didn't get paid for a layout job she did for a d20 publisher.


----------



## seankreynolds (Jul 2, 2008)

John, you could always self-publish this. It's easy to get a Word doc looking the way you want and turn it into a PDF. It's your work, and if you finished it there's no reason why you shouldn't publish it (on your own or with another company). And given that the series' name is based on your name, you should be able to continue with the name, or (if you're really concerned about them snarking you) change the name just a little bit.

I assume this is all OGC? You could even republish the finished volumes under your own product name, or compile them all into one big PDF when you're done.


----------



## Joshua Randall (Jul 2, 2008)

I find it somehow appropriate that the name of the company is Dog Soul.

Although actually, even dogs have better souls than these deadbeat thieves, now that I think about it.


----------



## Rafael Ceurdepyr (Jul 2, 2008)

John Cooper said:


> So, for the record, the "company in question" I've been referring to over the course of this thread is Dog Soul Publishing.




Well, I have to come out with a "Me, too." I haven't been paid anything for _Books of Faith: Hinduism_ from them. I did get some payments for _Sahasra_ and _Sahasra: The Spirit in the Spice Groves_, but the last one was about a year ago. I've been very disappointed by this, as the books looked good with nice cover art. And they were nice people to work with.

Except for the whole not getting paid part.


----------



## HinterWelt (Jul 2, 2008)

John, You do not know me but I will offer to render your files to PDFs if that would help. I hate to see this kind of thing happen to freelancers. 

Let me know if I can help and good luck,
Bill


----------



## GMSkarka (Jul 2, 2008)

Ironic, especially given the fact that Deb dragged me through the mud on various fora a couple of years back for paying Dog Soul about a month late. 

A little digging turned up  an entry about it on my blog, from 2006.


----------



## GeorgeFields (Jul 2, 2008)

Mark said:


> Sad news.  I have an idea, though, and have sent you and email, John.




Hmmm, sounds promising...


----------



## kcmopd1913 (Jul 2, 2008)

GMSkarka said:


> Ironic, especially given the fact that Deb dragged me through the mud on various fora a couple of years back for paying Dog Soul about a month late.
> 
> A little digging turned up  an entry about it on my blog, from 2006.




I read the blog and it was funny as hell, at least the way you expressed it was great.

There should be a list or stars next to publishers names that are good at getting the job done. Something like how ebay has it. I think that would help out alot of publishers looking for freelancers and freelancers considering working for publishers. I think that would helpful. Of course word of mouth works quit well. I sure will not be doing business with them. and the funny thing is they are selling the product John did. I just hope he gets paid for his work!


----------



## joela (Jul 2, 2008)

*two strikes*



Rafael Ceurdepyr said:


> Except for the whole not getting paid part.




That makes two reasons not to purchase DSP products.


----------



## John Cooper (Jul 3, 2008)

Thanks again, everyone, for the support, advice, and kind offers.  I've been contacted by several different companies interested in publishing the "CCCC" line in some form or another, so now I'm sending them queries on their plans and deciding how best to proceed.


----------



## Mynex (Jul 3, 2008)

John,

When you get a free moment, drop me an email please.  mynex at codemonkeypublishing dot com.

I've physically sickened by this treatment of freelancers.  Without you guys, there wouldn't be so much good stuff out on the market.  I expect to see lots more 3.5 and even a goodly number of 4.0 products done by all you guys over time.

You don't get to be a professional by accident, it takes time, practice, work, patience, and most of all a love for what you do.

*sigh*

And CMP has been burned by a freelancer in the past for a couple grand... So it can go both ways, but for 180$... that's just insane.


----------



## Aus_Snow (Jul 3, 2008)

Damn. Can I 'unbuy' the one thing I bought from them? ********

Anyway, I'll just make it a policy never to buy anything anyone from that company is involved in, and will point others here for future reference (or at least give them the basics.)


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## eyebeams (Jul 3, 2008)

Good on you for talking about it, John.

There are a lot of companies with unrealistic business models. They don't know the scale of things, or they assume some other source of cashflow is going to happen. In Dog Soul's case, I suspect the latter, because the company was also  did B2B work. I have a hunch that they figured they would divert some of this to production costs, release a lot of stuff and then watch the long tail money come in. Unfortunately, B2B services in PDF are not a big thing. No revenue from there = no money to hire people, and if you want a bunch of releases fast, you're going to have to schedule things before you know you can pay for them. This is a bad idea, especially when you pay on a per-word/piece rather than a profit sharing scheme.

People panic. They get too proud to admit they made a mistake. They start playing fast and loose with the truth. They start leaning on people for money.

Now I've had two tight spots. In one, I hired someone to do a little class book. They submitted, I PDFed it. The sales sucked. Fortunately, I paid royalty, so it kind of sucked equally for both of us. I ended up paying this person an advance and withdrawing the product simply because tracking it was too onerous. They got the money they were owed. It stung, though.

In the other situation, I was on the verge of contracting someone for a Quick20 expansion, but almost right after tentatively the proposal (but before signing anything), I had to spend a bunch of my savings to commute to the ARG/online project I was working on. I had to tell this person that I couldn't move forward. I got their hopes up and feel bad about that, but again -- nobody was denied money they were entitled to.

These were unfortunate situations, but I feel I made the best out of them by identifying the issue early, and taking it on the chin before I dug myself a hole. People really need to do this if they want to do business ethically. Wince to yourself and take control.


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## Rhianni32 (Jul 3, 2008)

I think you handled this very professionally in not naming them at first and to give them a more then reasonable time to pay you.
I'm glad you called them out and named them. I have been holding off buying some new pdfs as I had no idea who the company was. I can now avoid them and help to support proper companies.


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## thegrizz (Jul 4, 2008)

I am sad to hear you didn't get paid.  I really wish people wouldn't hire someone and then refuse to pay them.  I get not accepting a proposal.  I even get not liking the rough draft and saying "sorry trashing the project"  but I don't get signing contracts that state a person will get paid and then not paying them.  I wish this problem didn't exist but unfortunately it does.  However the up side is that near as I can tell the RPG industry is actually one of the better industries, other freelance markets can be brutal about never getting paid.

I really dug the CCCC idea, I hope someone picks it up.  I am entering the pdf market myself in a couple months but I want to make sure I know what I am doing before I offer to pay a writer.  However when I feel that I can afford to pay a writer I will give you a call dude.


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## RSKennan (Jul 4, 2008)

Eytan Bernstein said:


> This kind of thing has only happened to me once. I wrote a book for a company that I handed in early 2006. It was never released (having nothing to do with quality) and I was never paid. And this is over $1,000 worth of writing. There definitely needs to be a place where RPG industry professionals can talk freely about this kind of thing. I've thought about starting a google group or yahoo group, but I'm not sure if it's worth the trouble.




I'd thought the same thing, and I just started a subforum on my RPG Fan site. I'm an ex-freelancer, and at one point I wrote an article for a magazine and was never paid. For unrelated reasons, I decided that I'm going to keep writing game stuff, but that I'm going to give it away. 

The forum's here: http://www.4thwallgames.com/forum/. If you join, just PM i4thwall to be let into the subforum. It's invisible to non-game designers, and nothing anyone says there should leave.


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## RSKennan (Jul 4, 2008)

Just finished the thread. 

John- that really stinks. A lot of people love games so much that they think they have what it takes to run their own company, but they fail to understand the difficulties of running a real business. It's a shame.


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## JLowder (Jul 5, 2008)

GMSkarka said:


> Sadly, I think that any effort to start up a place for Freelancers to share their experiences will be met with the same sort of resistance from some corners of the industry.




Most publishers realize that there are always freelancers out there willing to work for less than they're paying the talent now or even for nothing, writers and artists willing to sign bad contracts and accept terrible treatment to get their names in print. The unscrupulous ones take advantage of that truth.

There are plenty of unscrupulous writers who will side with those unscrupulous publishers and editors, too. In public dust ups, they're the ones that attack the writers complaining about the lack of pay or poor treatment, in hopes of getting better treatment themselves; of course, they eventually get burned by the offending publishers, too. (That's not to say, of course, that the freelancer is always the abused party in these public feuds; plenty of freelancers burn publishers, too. That said, the publishers tend to be the ones with all the power, thanks to the typical industry contract.)

Writers groups are of limited value here. The National Writers Union does good work, but it's very expensive to join. Places like HWA and SFWA have grievance committees, but these can be of _very_ limited value, in large part because the groups are run by working writers who really don't want to annoy places that might hire them. There's no equivalent group for RPG designers and efforts to create a branch of GAMA for designers/freelancers have been unsuccessful.

So you're mostly on your own. The trick is to educate yourself on contracts enough to recognize bad ones, then learn to say "no" to them.

Cheers,
Jim Lowder
www.jameslowder.com


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## Klaus (Jul 6, 2008)

JLowder said:


> Most publishers realize that there are always freelancers out there willing to work for less than they're paying the talent now or even for nothing, writers and artists willing to sign bad contracts and accept terrible treatment to get their names in print. The unscrupulous ones take advantage of that truth.
> 
> There are plenty of unscrupulous writers who will side with those unscrupulous publishers and editors, too. In public dust ups, they're the ones that attack the writers complaining about the lack of pay or poor treatment, in hopes of getting better treatment themselves; of course, they eventually get burned by the offending publishers, too. (That's not to say, of course, that the freelancer is always the abused party in these public feuds; plenty of freelancers burn publishers, too. That said, the publishers tend to be the ones with all the power, thanks to the typical industry contract.)
> 
> ...



And mind you, all this applies to artists as well.


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## JLowder (Jul 6, 2008)

Klaus said:


> And mind you, all this applies to artists as well.




Absolutely! And editors and graphic designers. Any freelancers.

Of course, there are good publishers out there. If you're a freelancer thinking of working with a company, try to track down some of the writers and artists who have published with them in the past, to see if they've been paid and how their work was treated. Understand that your mileage may vary, as the saying goes, and that you should get as many opinions as possible--particularly if you're signing on for a big project.

But your best defense remains a well-written, balanced contract. (Just as a well-written, balanced contract is the best defense for a publisher, in case the freelancer fails to meet his or her obligations.)

Cheers,
Jim Lowder


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## Darrin Drader (Jul 8, 2008)

Well, it sucks that they never made good, but I think most of us freelancers have been there at one time or another. There is one book I worked on with the expectation that I was going to be paid in the neighborhood of $1200. My work was turned in, but my payment wasn't. I understood the circumstances behind it and I wasn't bitter or angry, rather, just wished that I was $1200 richer. 

Partially because of that experience and partially because it really hurts my lifestyle when projects get canceled at the last minute or payments get delayed, I try to collect half the money before I start writing unless the publisher has a really good reputation. On that note, if any freelancers who write True20 stuff ever get the opportunity to work with Reality Deviant Publications, I'd just like to put in a *GOOD* word for them and mention that they do pay in full and on time.


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## dragonier (Aug 11, 2008)

Rafael Ceurdepyr said:


> Well, I have to come out with a "Me, too." I haven't been paid anything for _Books of Faith: Hinduism_ from them. I did get some payments for _Sahasra_ and _Sahasra: The Spirit in the Spice Groves_, but the last one was about a year ago. I've been very disappointed by this, as the books looked good with nice cover art. And they were nice people to work with.
> 
> Except for the whole not getting paid part.




Wow, this is some development.  Donna, my wife Laura did the editing of the _Books of Faith: Hinduism_ manuscript for Deb and Sean.  In fact she did a number of projects for them over the course of about 8 or 9 months.  She hasn't seen a dime for any of them.

_Races of Consequence_ - published
_Books of Faith: Hinduism_ - published as two books, one on Hinduism and one on Jainism
_Road of the Worlds_ - unpublished
_Cassia_ - unpublished

In addition Deb worked with Laura on some material for Dark Quest Games' _Gods of War_ set in their _Guiding Light_ series.  The first book, _Seth_ was published and the editing was completed on _Morrigan_.  The manuscript for _Odin_, the third in the series, was never sent.

The work with Dog Soul was the first gig Laura got in the RPG field and it was a real boost to morale.  Here was a company that was producing really interesting, high quality material, and apparently plenty of it.  And as other posters have said, Deb and Sean seemed great to work with right up to the point of payment.  Unfortunately we don't even know the exact amount Laura is owed since at least one of the projects was to be paid on a percentage of the sales.

What is doubly frustrating is the fact that I was the one to point out the original "help wanted" post from Dog Soul.  My wife is an excellent, professionally trained editor and can tear apart a 3.5 stat block with ease (though not quite with your practiced eye John!).  With the bad feelings left by this fiasco, she is unlikely to want to work with another RPG company again.  The d20 publishing community has likely lost a fantastic resource.


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## Rafael Ceurdepyr (Aug 11, 2008)

dragonier said:


> Wow, this is some development.  Donna, my wife Laura did the editing of the _Books of Faith: Hinduism_ manuscript for Deb and Sean.  In fact she did a number of projects for them over the course of about 8 or 9 months.  She hasn't seen a dime for any of them.




That really is awful. I completely sympathize. I had high hopes too, especially after seeing the high quality of the books they did put out. I've heard of this kind of thing happening to other people, but it really does sour me on spending effort for nothing. If it's any consolation, I really appreciate the great work your wife did on the editing. (Yeah, I know, not much help there.) Really a shame, because I thought we were building a very interesting setting.


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## Angellis_ater (Aug 12, 2008)

I would suggest that Mr Cooper contact OBS (owner of RPGNow and DTRPG) and inform them that Dog Soul Publishing is selling PDFs for which they have no copyright (D-E) and two PDFs which Mr Cooper was contracted for but never paid. http://spiderforest.net/?p=40 - more people are loosing out on this, while at the same time, Dog Soul is selling these PDFs...


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## HalWhitewyrm (Aug 12, 2008)

Andreas, as a publisher, you are reflecting really badly upon your company with that language, regardless of how right you may be.


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## Morrus (Aug 12, 2008)

kcmopd1913 said:


> I read the blog and it was funny as hell, at least the way you expressed it was great.
> 
> There should be a list or stars next to publishers names that are good at getting the job done. Something like how ebay has it. I think that would help out alot of publishers looking for freelancers and freelancers considering working for publishers. I think that would helpful. Of course word of mouth works quit well. I sure will not be doing business with them. and the funny thing is they are selling the product John did. I just hope he gets paid for his work!




The new EN Marketplace is designed to do just that!


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## Angellis_ater (Aug 13, 2008)

HalWhitewyrm said:


> Andreas, as a publisher, you are reflecting really badly upon your company with that language, regardless of how right you may be.




You are quite right and I allowed my emotions to spill over into the post. Above post edited.


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## HalWhitewyrm (Aug 13, 2008)

It's all good.


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## tensen (Aug 13, 2008)

dragonier said:


> In addition Deb worked with Laura on some material for Dark Quest Games' _Gods of War_ set in their _Guiding Light_ series.  The first book, _Seth_ was published and the editing was completed on _Morrigan_.  The manuscript for _Odin_, the third in the series, was never sent.
> posters have said, Deb and Sean seemed great to work with right up to the point of payment.  Unfortunately we don't even know the exact amount Laura is owed since at least one of the projects was to be paid on a percentage of the sales.




Deborah was handling that line of books for Dark Quest.  It was quite a headache.  I know I only recently (a couple months back) was in touch with Martin Rayla over the Morrigan manuscript that had never been turned over to me.  Please have Laura contact me at darkquestgames@gmail.com


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## dragonier (Aug 30, 2008)

tensen said:


> Deborah was handling that line of books for Dark Quest.  It was quite a headache.  I know I only recently (a couple months back) was in touch with Martin Rayla over the Morrigan manuscript that had never been turned over to me.  Please have Laura contact me at darkquestgames@gmail.com



Hi,

I just wanted to reply to Tensen. Thanks so much for getting in touch with me through my husband via this site. Sorry that you also had a run around with Deborah over this line of books for Dark Quest.

I especially wanted to thank you for paying me for the job that I did on Seth; I realize that you'd paid Deborah for it already and I very much appreciate the gesture in paying me on top of that (since I never recieved payment from DogSoul). And I wanted to post publicly that you have restored some of my faith in the RPG publishing community with this act. 

Thank you! I am looking forward to seeing Morrigan published too. 

Laura


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## Charke (Aug 30, 2008)

John, a marvelous performance, and I'm not being sarcastic. I only just found this thread and I wasn't planning on reading it all but I did. I was shocked and disapointed by and with the Publisher when you named them. I admit I was terribly curious.

I've seen this "deadline to release information" used once before on an ebay type transaction, very effectively a buyer, who did indeed pay as digits of his home phone number were being released weekly.

I'm glad you had the nerve to stand up for yourself. But gosh darn, if I were a publisher, I'd think long and hard about this thread if you came to me looking for a job. It's the biggest bat we freelancers have and you are the first person I've seen swing it, and you swung hard (says 8000 hits).

So, good job, but woah.

You give me, us, lots to think about.

Mark Charke


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## PatrickLawinger (Aug 30, 2008)

dragonier said:


> Hi,
> 
> I just wanted to reply to Tensen. Thanks so much for getting in touch with me through my husband via this site. Sorry that you also had a run around with Deborah over this line of books for Dark Quest.
> 
> ...




Neal is a stand-up guy. Dark Quest is a small company but has always been fair and honest in my experience. I am saddened that someone working with them might have reflected poorly on them. The fact that he paid you despite paying for the work already is a sign of his honesty and fairness

Patrick
Edit: distractions, sigh...


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## John Cooper (Aug 31, 2008)

Charke said:


> I'm glad you had the nerve to stand up for yourself. But gosh darn, if I were a publisher, I'd think long and hard about this thread if you came to me looking for a job.



Actually, I would hope that anybody hiring me to do a freelancing job would intend to pay me, and thus would have no fears about this thread.  I've worked for around a dozen different RPG publishers over the years, and I've never had to resort to this kind of thing for any of them but Dog Soul Publishing.

Laura, I'm glad to hear that things worked out well for you.  And Neal, that was indeed a class act.


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## Charke (Aug 31, 2008)

You've done this thread well and there are good things to consider from it. You're very determined and resourceful. 


Mark Charke


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## HinterWelt (Aug 31, 2008)

John Cooper said:


> Actually, I would hope that anybody hiring me to do a freelancing job would intend to pay me, and thus would have no fears about this thread.  I've worked for around a dozen different RPG publishers over the years, and I've never had to resort to this kind of thing for any of them but Dog Soul Publishing.
> 
> Laura, I'm glad to hear that things worked out well for you.  And Neal, that was indeed a class act.




John,
The concerns I would have is that I know little of you but this thread. Therefore, my view of you is one of a freelancer who conducted themselves well in the face of adversity. On the other side, I only know of you airing the negative about a publisher who has wronged you. I do not see you starting threads (again to my very limited knowledge) praising those publishers you have worked for.

I tend to like looking on the freelancers I work with as partners. People who will praise me or damn as I treat with them. I have gone back and unprompted or legally bound in any way to pay artists for reuse of their art in further editions(Roma True20). So, it is not that I "fear" you would expose me if I did not pay you, I would expect that, but that you may view any relationship with a publisher as adversarial.

Let me stress, I think you conducted yourself very professionally in this thread. I want no doubt of that. However, these types of threads are always losing propositions, IMO, for all involved. A sad reality to be sure.

Bill


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## joela (Sep 17, 2008)

*Dog Soul Publishings back!*

Looks like it has a new site and products!


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## Rafael Ceurdepyr (Sep 17, 2008)

joela said:


> Looks like it has a new site and products!




Huh, interesting. Wonder if that means I'll get paid now.


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## John Cooper (Sep 18, 2008)

You and me both, Rafael.  I'm still waiting for them to pay me the rest of what they still owe me.


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## imptrigger (Sep 20, 2008)

John, all I can say is...WOW.

I've been kicking around the idea of publishing some of the material I've developed over the last 20 years or so, and after stumbling over this thread, it makes me feel that the best thing I could even possibly hope to do is publish it myself.

I really hope you get paid for the work you've done, or better yet, you find someone willing to pick up your work and help you along. You obviously know what you're doing and have shown incredible patience with these people. You should feel no guilt whatsoever in naming these people as the 'dead-beat' publishers they are.....

I wish you all the best, and am truly happy I stumbled on to this....

Sincerely,
S.A. Munson


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## Mark (Sep 20, 2008)

Just sent you a new email, John.


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## John Cooper (Sep 21, 2008)

I haven't received anything, Mark.  You may want to send it again.


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## Mark (Sep 21, 2008)

John Cooper said:


> I haven't received anything, Mark.  You may want to send it again.





I'll try it from a different address.


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## John Cooper (Sep 21, 2008)

I got that one, Mark, and have responded via email.  Thanks!


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## Scott Holden (Sep 28, 2008)

Threadsurrection. 

Sorry to hear about your trials, John. A similar thing happened to me a few years back, and I wouldn't wish it on an enemy. (FWIW, it was Otherworld Creations who screwed me out of about $900 -- I have no issues reporting it publicly in these forums or anywhere else, given the run-around they gave me for about 16 months. I finally gave up. Very disappointing.)


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## A Virtual Stranger (Sep 30, 2008)

A  similar thing has happened and is still happening to me, so I thought that I would share.  This was previously posted elsewhere.

Now let me begin by saying that this is simply written as a request to all publishers great and small to treat artists, and also writers, with respect. I'm speaking of course generally, as respect is often a thing earned. Still, I think that as people first, and artisans second, we all deserve a little polite consideration. 

 A number of years ago, the summer and fall of 2005 to be exact, I was hired to do a set of illustrations for an upcoming print on demand product by a well known game producer. I was flattered of course, and everything seemed to be on the up and up. I had some small reservations about the project at first, as I and the man in charge had had a previous, but patently ridiculous history involving some unimportant disagreements. Still, that frivolous friction was years past and he seemed genuinely glad to be working with me, and had indeed recommended me for the job based on another similar piece I had done for a private party two years before, so we forged ahead. Royalty percentages were agreed upon. Deadlines were set and negotiatied. Contracts were signed. 

 I began my illustrations. The work took many days spread out over a month and a half. As the deadline loomed, I wrote to the company and asked for a little more time to complete the work and the company thanked me for being honest and direct and insisted that that would be fine, as the project was being pushed back due to other items on their docket. 

 I finished the artwork.

 Shortly afterwards I received confirmation that they had the art, liked it and that they had already chosen which piece would garnish the cover. The project would be released just prior to Christmas of that year. The setbacks were all being taken care of, and it was insinuated that the only delay had come from a minor licensing issue. In the meantime, I bragged openly to several friends that I had been picked up to do this project. I was very happy to get my foot in the door at this particular company. I patted myself on the back more than a few times.

 Fast forward to 2008...

 I have never heard from them again.  

 Repeated emails in 2006 went unanswered when I inquired after the release of the product. It was not showing up on their website. A letter I mailed to them went unanswered. I continued sending emails off and on and by the latter part of 2006 they finally announced publicly that they had indeed hit a wall with the project, but that it was still on their plate and scheduled for release. I refrained from emailing them for a time, but again the project never came to light. Eventually the announcement was removed altogether and the project disappeared from their website. 

 I was surprised by this. I considered several avenues of discovery, but when I went to put them into play, the company made a surprise move. My artwork unexpectedly appeared in another publication of theirs, in an altogether different print on demand pdf. It was from the same product line, but they had chosen only a few of the illustrations and they had chosen a different cover piece. I was never notified about the use of my artwork in this pdf. As time passed I was not notified about payment, but to be fair, I cannot be certain if the project actually made any money apart from the one copy I purchased myself. 

 It has been two and a half years now. Two and a half years of silence. No explanations. No apologies. No contact whatsoever. I still have the same email address.

 I admit that my email or URL may have been flagged as Spam and filtered off their system. Whether or not this is on purpose or by accident, I cannot say. I'm left to wonder, imaging the worst at times and simply shrugging it off at others. 

 Admittedly, the project might have simply and utterly failed. Therefore, I have earned a royalty percentage equalling 33% of nothing. This bothers me to be sure, but I could accept it. I'm not happy with it, but it happens often enough in this industry. The problem lies in the fact that I simply don't know. I have no idea if the project failed. This company that I worked for has never told me one way or the other. I do not know if they intend to use the remaining art in future porjects. For all I know, they may have already used pieces without my knowledge. They have no phone numbers listed anywhere. I cannot call them. Repeated efforts to find a contact number have failed. My emails (Not from one address, but several, and not to one address, but several) have gone unanswered up to this very moment. Regular mail has proved fruitless.

 To be patently forgotten is very unpleasant.  It's dehumanizing.  

 You game producers out there...please...never cut off a person working for you. If a project fails to meet its first expectations and your promising outlook falls short, just be honest. Tell your artist and writers point blank that it didn't work. Let them know what became of it. Your explanation need only be brief, straight forward and to the point. Make reparations when necessary, but at least speak with them. 

 "It failed.  We're sorry."  It's just that easy.




Sadly, I was contacted about payment shortly after I wrote this and promised a check.  That was in June.  It is almost October.


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## Kaladhan (Sep 30, 2008)

And what company would that be?


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## Angellis_ater (Sep 30, 2008)

Yes indeed, what company is it?


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## A Virtual Stranger (Sep 30, 2008)

Strangely enough, a company with strong ties to the gaming community.  A company that seems to be on the up and up in every possible way, as I can't find evidence of such negligence anywhere else.  I alone seem to be their whipping boy, balancing out all of their good karma as their one closet misdeed.  I've looked for other misconduct on their part.  Many times in fact, but found none, which makes the situation that much more perplexing.  Thus my reticence to name them.


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## John Cooper (Oct 1, 2008)

Well, let's hope that your posts here prompt the company in question to contact you about the payment they owe you.  It worked for me with Dog Soul Publishing - the contact part, if not the payment part (although I did get $60.00 thus far of the $180.00 that I was owed) - as pretty much every time I posted in this thread, I at least got an email response from Sean.

Maybe you could forward the link to this thread to the company that owes you money and see if the possibility of being named as a "payment shirker" might not prompt them to pay you what you're owed?


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## joela (Oct 1, 2008)

*more product*



joela said:


> Looks like it has a new site and products!




Latest product up from Dog Soul Publishing. For a cash-strapped company, it's sure been busy. Unless it's delaying payment to its latest crop of writers/artists, too


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## Stormborn (Oct 1, 2008)

EDIT THE SECOND: Got it all sorted out, nevertheless this thread made it clear that the publisher wasn't getting my e-mail and I wasn't getting his.


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## A Virtual Stranger (Oct 6, 2008)

John Cooper said:


> Well, let's hope that your posts here prompt the company in question to contact you about the payment they owe you.






I'm not holding out hope of that.  The company in question posts here regularly and on the other forum where I posted the horrible experience.  I even took the opportunity to remind the owner of the company by dropping a not so subtle reminder about not getting a check into one of his threads.  I was reported to the moderators for my troubles.


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## Greg K (Oct 6, 2008)

I can sympathize with those people not getting paid. While I was paid for the one rpg book  I illustrated, I am still owed just over $2000 for a storyboard- and, I'll never see the money as the producer has spent the last  5 years in jail for running drugs through his production company.


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## Mouseferatu (Oct 6, 2008)

A Virtual Stranger said:


> I'm not holding out hope of that.  The company in question posts here regularly and on the other forum where I posted the horrible experience.  I even took the opportunity to remind the owner of the company by dropping a not so subtle reminder about not getting a check into one of his threads.  I was reported to the moderators for my troubles.




Then maybe you _do_ need to actually start naming names...


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## Greg K (Oct 6, 2008)

Stormborn said:


> EDIT THE SECOND: Got it all sorted out, nevertheless this thread made it clear that the publisher wasn't getting my e-mail and I wasn't getting his.




Glad to hear that it all was sorted out.


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## Greg K (Oct 6, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:


> Then maybe you _do_ need to actually start naming names...




Agreed.


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## GMSkarka (Oct 6, 2008)

A Virtual Stranger said:


> I even took the opportunity to remind the owner of the company by dropping a not so subtle reminder about not getting a check into one of his threads.  I was reported to the moderators for my troubles.




Might've helped if you used your real name, you know.

I reported that, because I had no idea who "The Gamer Market" was, and your sig linked to a personal attack.    

Communication kinda requires identification for it to actually work --- not to mention the fact that you haven't responded to any email I've sent you since about August....


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## GMSkarka (Oct 6, 2008)

A general announcement:

Anyone who has not heard from me in a while -- please send an email to gmskarkaATsbcglobalDOTnet (my home address).    

I've had two people now who were getting blocked at the ISP level on my adamantentertainment.com domain, both incoming and outgoing (and yes, I've got a ticket in with the hosting company).


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## A Virtual Stranger (Oct 6, 2008)

GMSkarka said:


> Might've helped if you used your real name, you know.
> 
> I reported that, because I had no idea who "The Gamer Market" was, and your sig linked to a personal attack.
> 
> Communication kinda requires identification for it to actually work --- not to mention the fact that you haven't responded to any email I've sent you since about August....





Ambiguity seemed the gentler course, considering the subject matter and the public here, but as you've decided to step into the limelight I shall answer your questions.

I interviewed you on the Gamer Market.  I was hired through the same 'Gamer Market' by your associate who sent me the following PM on the RPGnet.  You had her contact me there as stated in the following message...

"Hey there--

This is Laura with Adamant Entertainment. Gareth-Michael Skarka told me to check out some art that you did, and had posted here on RPGnet:

http://www.xmission.com/~steev/pictu.../AnijahRGB.jpg

Adamant is looking for artists for our upcoming line of adventures for Green Ronin's MUTANTS & MASTERMINDS superhero RPG, and Gareth thought you'd be a good artist to contact.

If you're interested, email submissions@adamantentertainment.com, or just email Gareth directly at gms@a....com.

Thanks, and sorry for the unsolicited PM."


In addition to this, you and I also talked about it in our first emails when you hired me, wherein you stated that you missed the RPGnet and where you commented on the interviews.  

As for the blog listed in my sig, I found that in April while hunting in vain for a phone number at Adamant Entertainment.  As it was one of the few articles I've read to paint you in a bad light, it certainly reflected my mood at the time, so I placed it in my signature and forgot about it.

The last email I received from you was in August stating that you sent the check uncertified.  It never arrived.

-William


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## GMSkarka (Oct 6, 2008)

I'll completely cop to forgetting that you were "The Gamer Market" at RPGnet.  It was a while ago.

I apologize for handling this so badly -- hopefully you now have my email reply.


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## A Virtual Stranger (Oct 6, 2008)

GMSkarka said:


> I apologize for handling this so badly -- hopefully you now have my email reply.





I have received the email.


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## GMSkarka (Oct 6, 2008)

Update:   Entirely my fault.

My host just got back to me -- apparently, they added a filter program (Maia Mailguard) to my mail hosting -- which was default set to high, and was screwing around with incoming and outgoing emails on some addresses.

They had sent a notification about it, and I had missed it -- so the email screw-ups were entirely my fault.

I apologize to anyone who got caught up in my stupidity.   Everything should be set now, so feel free to contact me via any available address.


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## John Cooper (Nov 4, 2008)

In the interest of "going public" with the good as well as the bad, I just wanted to let everyone know that I received a money order in the mail today for $120.00 from Sean Frolich and Deborah Balsam of Dog Soul Publishing.  It took them a year and a half, but they finally paid me what they owed me.


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## joela (Nov 4, 2008)

*willing to open wallet*



John Cooper said:


> In the interest of "going public" with the good as well as the bad, I just wanted to let everyone know that I received a money order in the mail today for $120.00 from Sean Frolich and Deborah Balsam of Dog Soul Publishing.  It took them a year and a half, but they finally paid me what they owed me.




Thanks for the update, John. I will now look at their material again.


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## Alzrius (Nov 4, 2008)

John, I'm glad you finally received what you were owed. I just wish it hadn't taken so much time, effort, and aggravation on your part to get it (I also wish we could get the rest of the CCCC, but you being paid is the most important thing).


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## Starglim (Nov 4, 2008)

Good to know. The time I might have had a particular use for some of their work has passed, but I'll be glad to pick up some new items.


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## A Virtual Stranger (Nov 4, 2008)

Today marks the three year anniversary since Gareth-Michael Skarka accepted the artwork that I created for one of his M&M Superlink publications at Adamant Entertainment.  Three years have come and gone and I have never been paid.


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## HalWhitewyrm (Nov 5, 2008)

Didn't you get in touch with him some time back?


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## A Virtual Stranger (Nov 5, 2008)

I did.  Gareth promised a payment in June.  When it didn't arrive by July I approached him about it and he said that he had sent it and he was waiting for it to be cashed or returned.  It never arrived.  Nor did it arrive in August.  By September and October he blamed a wrong address and then an email issue and offered to mail me a check again.  Nothing came after the fifteenth of October (the 15th being the day his company cuts checks and pays out royalties by Paypal) and he assured me that I would see a check before the end of the month.  It is now the fourth, almost the fifth of November.  

Three years.  No check.  I believe that I have been as patient as anyone might be expected to be at this point.


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## joela (Nov 5, 2008)

*Adamant following Dog Soul*



A Virtual Stranger said:


> I did.  Gareth promised a payment in June.  When it didn't arrive by July I approached him about it and he said that he had sent it and he was waiting for it to be cashed or returned.  It never arrived.  Nor did it arrive in August.  By September and October he blamed a wrong address and then an email issue and offered to mail me a check again.  Nothing came after the fifteenth of October (the 15th being the day his company cuts checks and pays out royalties by Paypal) and he assured me that I would see a check before the end of the month.  It is now the fourth, almost the fifth of November.
> 
> Three years.  No check.  I believe that I have been as patient as anyone might be expected to be at this point.




Thanks for the update. _*Puts "Do Not Recommend" next to Adamant*_


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## dmccoy1693 (Nov 5, 2008)

Congrats, John. Glad to hear.


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## Mark (Nov 5, 2008)

Congrats to you, John!  Glad to see that has worked out.


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## GMSkarka (Nov 5, 2008)

A Virtual Stranger said:


> Three years.  No check.  I believe that I have been as patient as anyone might be expected to be at this point.




You have indeed.

Sadly, Adamant simply does not have the money right now.  I had expected the traditional 4th quarter upswing in sales to allow me to make good on your balance (and, to be completely forthcoming, the balance on 3 other freelancers).

Unfortunately, October's sales were *40% less* than this time last year. 

We've lost nearly half of our income.  Things are that bad.

I'm working as hard as I'm able to turn this around.   Everyone *will* be paid.



On a side note -- Adamant is one of the top PDF publishers out there, and the current economy has hit us hard.   I'm positive that others have been hit as well.   If you've got a favorite publisher, try throwing a few extra sales their way -- I'm sure they could really, really use it.


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## HalWhitewyrm (Nov 5, 2008)

GMSkarka said:


> On a side note -- Adamant is one of the top PDF publishers out there, and the current economy has hit us hard.   I'm positive that others have been hit as well.   If you've got a favorite publisher, try throwing a few extra sales their way -- I'm sure they could really, really use it.



Quoted for truth on every single point.


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## Pinotage (Nov 5, 2008)

GMSkarka said:


> Sadly, Adamant simply does not have the money right now.
> 
> Unfortunately, October's sales were *40% less* than this time last year.
> 
> We've lost nearly half of our income.  Things are that bad.




Wow! Didn't really things were so bad for you guys. Very sorry to hear that. ?I'll start spreading a few dollars around to help out.


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## FATDRAGONGAMES (Nov 6, 2008)

GMS is not blowing smoke here people. We saw a significant drop in sales for October as well, our worse single month drop in three and a half years.


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## Urizen (Nov 6, 2008)

Sales have been down for my company (Reality Deviant Publications) as well.

Not HUGE, mind you. I've had some solid releases which have done well, but I've been looking at a downward trend every month since August.


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## mikelaff (Nov 6, 2008)

With all due respect to Gareth and all the other esteemed publishers:

 The most important point is getting lost here.

If I'm reading the post right -  a promised payment date went by with no contact from the publisher. (And although hopefully this was merely an oversight, unfortunately in this case,  it was not the first time.)

Everyone is very busy and everyone is feeling the pinch.

That doesn't mitigate the truth that the creators who've worked for you deserve the basic courtesy of an email explaining  why you can't pay them right now and what sort of arrangement might be made in the future.

They shouldn't have to call you out on a gaming forum before they find out what's going on.


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## A Virtual Stranger (Nov 6, 2008)

mikelaff said:


> With all due respect to Gareth and all the other esteemed publishers:
> 
> The most important point is getting lost here.
> 
> If I'm reading the post right -  a promised payment date went by with no contact from the publisher. (And although hopefully this was merely an oversight, unfortunately in this case,  it was not the first time.)




Thank you...and you are reading it right.  

I was not notified about this sudden change in payment due to fourth quarter losses until mentioning non-payment here.  I have not received an email since the one Gareth sent to me on October 21st informing me that I should expect a check by the end of the month.    Also, Adamant's fourth quarter earning problems this year cannot explain the lack of payment from any other quarter earnings over the last three years.


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## GMSkarka (Nov 6, 2008)

A Virtual Stranger said:


> I have not received an email since the one Gareth sent to me on October 21st informing me that I should expect a check by the end of the month.




Because you posted publicly, so I responded publicly here.



A Virtual Stranger said:


> Also, Adamant's fourth quarter earning problems this year cannot explain the lack of payment from any other quarter earnings over the last three years.




The project your art was commissioned for was never released, as you know.   I did use a couple of pieces of your artwork as filler on other projects, and I should have been more communicative regarding that.  

What the earning problems did affect, though, was cash-on-hand -- to allow the entire balance to be cleared, which is what I've been trying to do, and still am.


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## A Virtual Stranger (Nov 6, 2008)

GMSkarka said:


> Because you posted publicly, so I responded publicly here.




I posted publicly four days after the month of October was over.


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## A Virtual Stranger (Nov 22, 2008)

Although my experience with Adamant Entertainment was unpleasant at best, I would be remiss if I didn't mention that Gareth finally paid me for my work.  Also, he released my remaining illustrations, that I might sell them elsewhere.  It's nice to see the matter resolved.


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## matthewajg (Dec 15, 2008)

*Same problem*

As fate would have it, I have had the exact same problem with Dog Soul Publishing for work I started in 2005, that was published in 2006, sold well when it was first released, and garnered an Honorable Mention for Best Eelectronic Book in the Ennies! The book I co-wrote "Kitsunemori" was bery well received by players and critics.  I worked for hundreds of hours on the project, and even convinced friends to contribute free artwork for the project.  I was very proud of what was accomplished.  However, after only the initial payment for the book, I never saw another payment!  I have been emailing the company literally for YEARS with only empty promises of payment.  One promise after another have proven nothing more than lies, and I am frankly sickened by their inattention to this matter.  It is ridiculous and unacceptable.  I have been speaking with a lawyer about further action as I am owed more than John's $180 at this point.  I think it is about time that the publisher be responsible and take care of this.  Sean or Deb, after all of the work I did for free for your company, and the endless hours poured into creating a book that you have profited from, I think it is only fair that you pay me what is owed.  Contact me.

For all of you reading this thread, I am among a group of many freelancers; friends who write for reputable companies like Goodman Games and even Wizards.  Unless I am finally paid for my work on "Kitsunemori", I can do nothing but strongly urge you to not work for or buy any other Dog Soul's products.  If I am paid, I will gladly post on this thread again to let you all know that Dog Soul has done the right thing.


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## Rafael Ceurdepyr (Dec 15, 2008)

I'll be interested to hear what happens, matthewajg. I'd wondered if I was the only person Dog Soul hadn't paid, but apparently not. I contacted them when they re-emerged with a new website and new products and was assured I'd be paid. Doesn't seem likely now.


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## matthewajg (Dec 15, 2008)

Yeah, there are quite a few of us.  I think at this point wee should consider a boycott of their merchandise.  Perhaps this is the perfect forum to get that started.


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## Alzrius (Dec 16, 2008)

Matthew, I think it's a travesty that you haven't been paid for your work. _Kitsunemori_ is one of the best d20 products I've ever seen (something I said in my review). I hope your legal action against Dog Soul succeeds, as it's sickening that they're STILL profiting from your hard work.


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## matthewajg (Dec 16, 2008)

Thanks for the support.  I was very proud of "Kitsunemori", and all that I have endured trying to be compensated has left a very bad taste in my mouth.  As a result, I have moved away from game design for fear of having to experience this kind of massive disappointment again.  It's really unfortunate.


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## John Cooper (Dec 21, 2008)

Matthew, that's despicable!  And I thought I had it bad with my measly little $180.00!  I'm sorry to hear that mine was not an isolated incident; I can only hope that your litigation (or better yet, just the mere threat of it) gets you the money you so richly deserve.

If this is the way that Deb and Sean run their company - and it sure seems to be a recurring pattern - they really shouldn't be in business at all.


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## Mark (Dec 21, 2008)

John, maybe you could email Matthew to ensure he has as much up to date emailing information as you have?


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## John Cooper (Dec 22, 2008)

Good idea, Mark.  Done.


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## John Cooper (Feb 2, 2009)

For those of you who had been following this thread and had expressed hopes that another company would pick up this series, I'm very pleased to announce that the fine folks at Skirmisher Publishing have done just that.  Check out the following link for details:  http://www.enworld.org/forum/publishers-press-releases/249689-skirmisher-publishing-coopers-compendium-corrected-creatures-d-released.html


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## joela (Feb 2, 2009)

*skirmisher*



John Cooper said:


> For those of you who had been following this thread and had expressed hopes that another company would pick up this series, I'm very pleased to announce that the fine folks at Skirmisher Publishing have done just that.  Check out the following link for details:  http://www.enworld.org/forum/publishers-press-releases/249689-skirmisher-publishing-coopers-compendium-corrected-creatures-d-released.html




thanks!


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## Mark (Feb 2, 2009)

Congrats!


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## Angellis_ater (Feb 2, 2009)

Congratulations!


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## Aers (Mar 3, 2009)

just wanted to give this a nudge since I am also owed money by Dog Soul - I worked on The Road of Worlds project and it's been years since it was commissioned and no money paid.

after reading this thread I don't think I'll ever see my money. 

so it goes, as Father Kurt would say.

still... such a pity.


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## Rafael Ceurdepyr (Mar 3, 2009)

At this point, no, it doesn't look like any of us will see payment from Dog Soul. I emailed and asked when they re-emerged, and was assured I'd get paid, but didn't believe it then and don't really now. I agree, it is sad. And very annoying. I'm proud of the work I did for them and have had mixed feelings about posting my authorship of it.


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## EP (Apr 22, 2009)

Aers said:


> just wanted to give this a nudge since I am also owed money by Dog Soul - I worked on The Road of Worlds project and it's been years since it was commissioned and no money paid.
> 
> after reading this thread I don't think I'll ever see my money.
> 
> ...




Crap, I was afraid of that. I take it that means the content is ours again as those contracts would be null and void by now.

Anyone else involved with the Road of Worlds project and still interested and salvaging their brilliant work, please contact me at warden@emeraldpresspdf.com. No promises on anything - just discussions as to how to salvage the work.


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## KeepFlying (Jul 18, 2009)

Look, your situation with freelancing, I definitely feel your pain. 

Let it be known that within this thread are folks who would have you believe that they're not involved in the same exploitation of people's hard work, but guess what? 

I'm abstaining from stating outright, but dropping a line here to let the party know that the other site they frequent is about to have a similar thread, with not just one but several artists who have been treated this way.

I'll quote Malcolm Reynolds: 'I do the job, and I get paid.' 

Thus far, several folks can't say the same thing. 

KF


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## Crothian (Jul 18, 2009)

What other site?


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## KeepFlying (Jul 22, 2009)

Crothian said:


> What other site?





Hey Cro...

Well...I've been waiting to respond to this until I heard what the other guys would want to do about this. Some were merely not kept informed of their royalties for their work (and so pulled their product from the line), and decided not to push forward. 

If my situation were similar (and simply withdrawing my art were possible/feasible) I would likely let this drop. 

Let me state for the record, that the person in this thread has been notified that I'd like to be paid...numerous times. 

I created a thread over at the Atomic Think Tank, where this person seems to be farming out new artists/playtesters, I suppose. I've declined from naming names, but believe me, I've not made it hard to clue in to who it is. 

I finished my work for this person 2 years ago...and since release (unlike our OP person, the book I worked on has been released, can you believe it?!) the book has been one of the company's top sellers. 

To date: no payment. 

I've asked a few other publishers for comment/advice, since I'm fairly new to the freelance graphic artist stuff, and a man whose opinion I trust said that just naming names would be fine, since they defaulted on payment so long. 

What's REALLY ironic, is that even in this thread, this person seems to pity the plight of the freelancer...and yet has refused to pay. Or is unable. 

Seriously, as I read the excuses given to the OP, it was like I was thumbing through the email responses to the payment requests I was given. Believe you me, I am almost certain this company's NOT going to pay unless they're MADE to pay...and in this thread, this certainty was given credence...as that's JUST what it took. 

Now, for the good news, other companies, in this thread, have actually read my proposals for art, and I'm currently working on one of their projects. Emerald Press, in case you were curious. The owner/writer/editor was up front with the budget (fancy that! he HAD a budget) and I worked with that to come up with my price. 

If only all business deals could be this simple and honest. 

Anyway, this has become a rant, when it probably just should have been a link to the thread. 

The Atomic Think Tank • View forum - M&M Superlink


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## dmccoy1693 (Jul 23, 2009)

Hey, I got tired of being stiffed (most notably by a major rpg company for a large high profile release) so much that I quit freelancing and started my own rpg company. I get all my material published and I always get paid. Win, win.  More work in other respects, but its a tradeoff for getting paid.

One thing about my company, I always pay those that write/draw for me.

EDIT (some time later): I should add that I did finally get paid for that project.


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## KeepFlying (Aug 1, 2009)

Update: Big Damn Hero Gets Paid! 

So, after talking it out with the publisher, who made himself known at the other thread I talked about, I got paid a sizeable portion of what I was owed. This actually sparked people's interest in my commissions and work, and so, I've thus far got four paying projects! O.O 

And, furthermore, the people who hired me, Phipps Publishing (producer of the hit 'Halt Evil Doer' supplement under Mutants and Masterminds' Superlink banner) has already paid for services rendered (no pun intended) thus far! 

Life is good enough for me to celebrate a hard won victory. 

Oh, and here's a sample of the stuff you can expect from Phipps Publishing's new books:


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