# Dragonblood taking Dragon feats



## Daenur (Jun 19, 2007)

Okay, so I know this is my first post. I wanted to make it decent. Greetings all.

The premise of this question is that I have a character concept involving (possibly breaking)the Dragonborn race from Races of the Dragon, also visible at Wizards of the Coast .

*Question*
Can a dragonblood character take feats that have the dragon type as a prerequisite, so long as they meet all other prerequisites? (not True Dragon)

Sources for reference include:

Monster Manual 3.5
Draconomicon
Dragon Magic
Races of the Dragon

_*Relevant Citations:*_

[sblock='Type' defined as per Monster Manual (MM p5)]Type determines how magic affects a creature; for example, the hold animal spell affects only creatures of the animal type. Type determines certain features, such as Hit Dice size, base attack bonus, base saving throw bonuses, and skill points. For quick reference, the Glossary gives a full description of the features and traits of each type and subtype.[/sblock]
[sblock=Monsters by type (and subtype) (MM p4)]Dragon: dragons, dragon turtle, pseudodragon, wyvern.[/sblock]
[sblock=Dragon Type (MM p308)]A dragon is a reptilelike creature, usually winged, with magical or unusual abilities.
Features: A dragon has the following features
- 12-dided Hit Dice
- base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter).
- Good Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves
- Skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hid Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hid Die
Traits: A dragon posesses the folowing traits (unless otherwise noted in the description of a particular kind).
- Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision.
- Immunity to magic sleep effects and paralysis effects.
- Proficient with its natural weapons only unless humanoid in form (or capable of assuming humanoid form), in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
- Proficient with no armor.
- Dragons eat, sleep, and breathe.[/sblock]
[sblock=Regarding dragonblood races. (RotD p4)]Being a member of dragonblood race goes much deeper than merely speaking Draconic or having scales. Races of the dragon are those with strong ties to their dragon progenitors. They look, feel, and often behave in ways that reflect their mighty draconic heritage.[/sblock]
[sblock=Humanoid (dragonblood) (RotD p8)]Humanoid (dragonblood): Dragonborn are humanoids with the dragonblood subtype and any other subtypes they had before undergoing the Rite of Rebirth. For all effects related to race, a dragonborn is considered a dragon and a member of her original race.[/sblock]
[sblock=The Dragonkind Races (RotD p4)]Just as City of the Spider Queen expanded and enumerated the various spiderkind races, Races of the Dragon defines several existing races as dragonkind and adds some new ones. (Some of the stranger creatures, such as the ravid and the spell weaver, work very well as spawn of Tiamat—mortal enemies of the dragon born who serve Bahamut.) The dragonkind races detailed in various D&D books (some of them appearing in more than one source) are as follows.
Races of the Dragon: Dragonborn, spellscale, kobold, draconic creatures, half-dragons.
Draconomicon: Dragonkin, dragonnel, elemental drakes, faerie dragon, fang dragon, spiked felldrake, landwyrms, planar dragons, shadow dragon, storm drake, draconic creatures,
half-dragons.
Fiend Folio: Sea drake, sunwyrm.
Monster Manual: True dragons, behir, dragon turtle, kobold, pseudodragon, ravid, wyvern.
Monster Manual II: Gem dragons, felldrakes, frost salamander, hellfire wyrm, linnorms, spellweaver.
Monster Manual III: Ambush drake, dracotaur, dragon eel, rage drake, ssvaklor.

DRAGONBLOOD SUBTYPE
If a race possesses the dragonblood subtype, it has a strong affinity to dragons—which means that spells, effects, powers, and abilities that affect or target dragons also affect it. The subtype qualifies a creature to use magic items normally only usable by dragons, and qualifies the creature to take feats that have the subtype as a prerequisite. The dragonblood subtype also makes creatures subject to harmful effects that affect dragons.
The dragonblood subtype does not confer the dragon type or any traits associated with that type. For instance, it does not give a creature frightful presence. Dragons automatically qualify for any classes, prestige classes, racial substitution levels, feats, powers, or spells that require the dragonblood subtype. Races presented in this book that
have the dragonblood subtype include dragonborn, spellscale, kobold, and draconic creatures. Should a creature acquire the dragon type, it loses the dragonblood subtype.

DRAGON-DESCENDED RACES
This term refers to a narrower category of dragonkind races.
Dragon-descended races are those that use either the halfdragon
or draconic creature templates.[/sblock]

*My thoughts...*

Potential feats in question...

[sblock=ENDURE BLOWS <MONSTROUS>]You are adept at lessening the effects of blows.
Prerequisites: Con 19, dragon type, Toughness.
Benefit: You gain damage reduction 2/—. This stacks with any damage reduction you have from other sources. Damage reduction cannot reduce damage below 0.[/sblock]

[sblock=AWAKEN SPELL RESISTANCE <MONSTROUS>]You gain spell resistance.
Prerequisites: Con 13, dragon type.
Benefit: You gain innate spell resistance equal to your racial Hit Dice.
Special: If your racial Hit Dice increase after you gain this feat, your spell resistance increases as well. If you have this feat and you also have (or later gain) spell resistance
as a racial ability, your spell resistance is equal to your new Hit Dice total or your racial spell resistance +2, whichever is higher. You can take this feat multiple times. Each time you take the feat, your innate spell resistance increases by 2.[/sblock]

[sblock=AWAKEN FRIGHTFUL PRESENCE <MONSTROUS>]You gain frightful presence.
Prerequisites: Cha 11, dragon type.
Benefit: You gain the frightful presence special ability with a radius in feet equal to 5 × 1/2 your racial Hit Dice. The ability takes effect automatically whenever you attack,
charge, or fly overhead. Creatures within the radius are subject to the effect if they can see you and have fewer Hit Dice than your racial Hit Dice. A potentially affected creature that succeeds on a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 your racial HD + your Cha modifier) remains immune to your frightful presence for 24 hours. On a failure, creatures with 4 or fewer Hit Dice becomepanicked for 4d6 rounds and those with 5 or more Hit Dice become shaken for 4d6 rounds. Dragons ignore the frightfulpresence of other dragons.\Special: If you have both this feat and you have (or later gain) the frightful presence ability, your frightful
presence radius either increases by 50% or increases to 5 feet × 1/2 your racial Hit Dice, whichever figure is higher. The save DC against your frightful presence also increases by 2.[/sblock]
This also means that 'dragon' items not otherwise noted as humanoid should be allowed to said character.  (wheter they are available or not).

My conclusion is that for any feat or ability that would have dragon as a type prerequisite should be allowed for a dragonblood character meeting all other prerequisites.


> For all effects related to race, a dragonborn is considered a dragon and a member of her original race. (RotD p4)




I submit this to the powers that be and await your response.

P.S.   Feel free to kibitz on the formatting.  I am not traditionally a forum junky and as such am open to all advice, not limited to just this question.


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## SteelDraco (Jun 19, 2007)

I would agree with your conclusion - you can take feats that have the Dragon type as a requirement if you have the Dragonblood subtype. That's the whole function of it, as far as I'm concerned.

Unfortunately, several of those feats are based on RACIAL hit dice, not normal hit dice. You won't have any of those with any of the dragonblood races. Class levels don't count for determining your racial hit dice.


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## Erywin (Jun 19, 2007)

I would say No.

"The dragonblood subtype does not confer the dragon type or any traits associated with that type. For instance, it does not give a creature frightful presence. Dragons automatically qualify for any classes, prestige classes, racial substitution levels, feats, powers, or spells that require the dragonblood subtype."

The requirement is to have the Dragon Type, the dragonblood subtype does not confer the Dragon Type.

Cheers,
E


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## blargney the second (Jun 19, 2007)

Dragonblood subtype qualifies you for feats with "Dragonblood subtype" as a prerequisite, like those found in Races of the Dragon.  But it doesn't give you the Dragon type required to qualify for the monstrous feats in Draconomicon.


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## Darklone (Jun 19, 2007)

Heck, I think the Draconic Heritage feats are strong enough, you don't need special dragon feats.


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## Daenur (Jun 19, 2007)

Darklone said:
			
		

> Heck, I think the Draconic Heritage feats are strong enough, you don't need special dragon feats.




Don't Draconic Heritage feats by nature require ( Dragontouched OR (Sorceror lvl 1  AND Draconic Heritage feat)) ?

[sblock=Dragontouched]Prerequisites: Cha 11
Benefit: You gain the _dragonblood subtype]. You gain 1 hit point, a +1 bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot check, and a +1 bonus on saving throws against paralysis and sleep effects. In addition, you can select draconic feats as if you were a sorcerer of your character level.[/sblock]

So as a dragonborn, I would have to waste a feat just to have access to the draconic feats that are 'powerful enough'. Besides which, most of the feats that have dragon as a type prereq tend to have other reqs like size, Con, Str, etc. The reason I think this is a valid question is that the Draconomicon, like the Monster Manual, was published prior to the existance of the Dragonblood subtype.

Then, regardless of the actual ruling, is it balanced? Why would a half-orc have the vulnerabilities of being both human and orc without having access to the same hypothetical benefits?

I suppose that the question can really boil down to this. Would you allow a half-elf, or a half-orc take feats that have orc, or elf as a prereq?_


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## Rhewtani (Jun 20, 2007)

Daenur said:
			
		

> I suppose that the question can really boil down to this. Would you allow a half-elf, or a half-orc take feats that have orc, or elf as a prereq?




Both races have the "elf blood" and "orc blood" racial traits, respectively.  Races of Destiny speaks of the option for a DM to allow a half-elf or a half-orc to take human only feats.


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## drewcopeland (Jun 20, 2007)

Rhewtani said:
			
		

> Both races have the "elf blood" and "orc blood" racial traits, respectively.  Races of Destiny speaks of the option for a DM to allow a half-elf or a half-orc to take human only feats.




The question is . . . would you?


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## Darklone (Jun 20, 2007)

drewcopeland said:
			
		

> The question is . . . would you?



I would.


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## Dagredhel (Jun 20, 2007)

IMHO, it comes down to the fact that the dragonblood *subtype* was created _*specifically*_ to tie in with certain character options (substitution levels, alternate class features, and feats) while remaining distinct from the Dragon *type*.

The dragonblood subtype is relatively easy and "inexpensive" to acquire, while the Dragon type generally requires a greater commitment.

So my answer would be no, absolutely no, no, no, no.  And no.    

On the *other* hand, you certainly *can * "pay the price" to acquire the Dragon type.

Playing a dragonwrought kobold character is the most direct route that springs to mind (at the cost of a single feat and being short and scaly, I believe), but levels in the draconic racial class would also work, or you could just eat the level adjustment and begin play as a Half-dragon.

I don't think there is really any question whether the RAW would allow you to grab the Dragon feats without first actually acquiring the Dragon type, but by the same token, I don't think it's really an insurmountable obstacle to do so.


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## Jdvn1 (Jun 21, 2007)

Daenur said:
			
		

> Don't Draconic Heritage feats by nature require ( Dragontouched OR (Sorceror lvl 1  AND Draconic Heritage feat)) ?



No, they don't.

The Draconic Heritage [DRACONIC] feat requires Sorcerer level 1st and the other Draconic Heritage feats require Draconic Heritage and sorcerer level 1st (except for Draconic Legacy, which just requires any four draconic feats).

It's pretty clear, but I think you're getting turned around, so let's look at it critically:


> *Dragontouched*
> Prerequisites: Cha 11
> Benefit: You gain the _dragonblood subtype_. You gain 1 hit point, a +1 bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot check, and a +1 bonus on saving throws against paralysis and sleep effects. In addition, you can select draconic feats as if you were a sorcerer of your character level.



We see the Dragontouched feat allows you to select draconic feats as if you were a sorcerer of your character level, but not as if you had already taken the Draconic Heritage [DRACONIC] feat. That means that a character with the Dragontouched feat doesn't have to be a sorcerer to take the Draconic Heritage feat, not that he can take any other [DRACONIC] feat.

That is, the Dragontouched feat only allows you to bypass the sorcerer requirement.

If there were another [DRACONIC] feat that didn't require Draconic Heritage, then a character without Draconic Heritage could take it, given that he meets all other prereq's.

If there were [DRACONIC] feats that didn't require Draconic Heritage but did have a sorcerer level requirement, then a character with the Dragontouched feat could take it, given that he meets all other prereq's.


			
				Daenur said:
			
		

> So as a dragonborn, I would have to waste a feat just to have access to the draconic feats that are 'powerful enough'.



Yes, according to the rules.


			
				Daenur said:
			
		

> Besides which, most of the feats that have dragon as a type prereq tend to have other reqs like size, Con, Str, etc. The reason I think this is a valid question is that the Draconomicon, like the Monster Manual, was published prior to the existance of the Dragonblood subtype.



That's a good point, though issues like this are supposed to be resolved in the newer books (as in, Dragon Magic or Races of the Dragon would clarify how to modify core stuff so it works more smoothly), and would also be included in errata (like they did with Swift and Immediate actions).

Regardless of the intention or reason the authors did as they did, RAW (the rules as written) must be taken as-is. Otherwise, it boils down to guesswork.


			
				Daenur said:
			
		

> Then, regardless of the actual ruling, is it balanced?



To allow races that don't qualify for dragon feats to take them? Or to allow any race to take the [MONSTROUS] dragon feats? I dunno, I'd guess it'd depend on the feat. I think Awaken Frightful Presence might be unbalanced for a 1st level character, but I'm not sure. I certainly would think it'd would be odd for any Commoner to take it.

Or do you mean to let dragonblooded characters assume the Draconic Heritage feat? I don't think it would be balanced in that case. Feats past entry feats tend to be powerful enough to warrant the entry feat in the first place.


			
				Daenur said:
			
		

> Why would a half-orc have the vulnerabilities of being both human and orc without having access to the same hypothetical benefits?



First of all, Half-Orcs are kind of a corner case. They're generally considered way underpowered anyway. Secondly, what vulnerabilities of being Human do they have? And, who said the other "Half" of the "Half-Orc" was Human?


			
				Daenur said:
			
		

> I suppose that the question can really boil down to this. Would you allow a half-elf, or a half-orc take feats that have orc, or elf as a prereq?



I don't agree that it's a similar question, since Half-Elves, Half-Orcs, Orcs, and Elves, all have the Humanoid type and only differ in subtype, whereas dragons and dragonblooded differ in both subtype and type (except for those few dragons that take the Draconic Heritage or Dragontouched feats, but for them this is a non-issue). Besides, the Arcane Archer PrC give evidence for an answer of 'No' anyway (since it requires 'Elf or half-elf'--if half-elves qualify for anything an elf can take, they wouldn't have specified both).


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## Daenur (Jun 21, 2007)

Dude, that was so well argued that my head hurts... >.<


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## Jdvn1 (Jun 22, 2007)

Oh, and welcome to EN World. 

Note that:
1. [Monstrous] feats _can_ be taken by PCs, with GM approval, according to RAW, but I think most GMs wouldn't allow you to bypass any explicit prereq's (such as 'dragon type'... whereas some [Monstrous] feats have very easy-to-qualify-for prereq's like 'Cha 11').
2. It's also worth noting the line on page 102 of RotD, "Anyone interested in taking draconic feats must take the very first feat in the series: Draconic Heritage."
3. A lenient GM _might_ let any dragon-blooded race take the Dragonwrought feat.


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## Joshua McKee (Dec 18, 2022)

So you are saying that if my character was of dragon blood naturally and became a dragonborn thus gaining the dragonblood subtype (via result of the right of rebirth)  I would still need to sacrifice a feat and take dragontouched as a prerequisite for any  Pr/C that requires dragontouched as a prerequisite; like Hand of the Winged Masters?


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## dave2008 (Dec 20, 2022)

Joshua McKee said:


> So you are saying that if my character was of dragon blood naturally and became a dragonborn thus gaining the dragonblood subtype (via result of the right of rebirth)  I would still need to sacrifice a feat and take dragontouched as a prerequisite for any  Pr/C that requires dragontouched as a prerequisite; like Hand of the Winged Masters?



Just to be clear, you are responding to a thread that is 15 over years old since the last post before yours.


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## Joshua McKee (Dec 20, 2022)

dave2008 said:


> Just to be clear, you are responding to a thread that is 15 over years old since the last post before yours.



yes I am well aware that it is very old. It still does not negate the fact that I have a legitimate question regarding the subject. Especially since I am currently faced with such a scenario in my D&D game. No I am not mistaking 5e for 3.5. I started playing 3.5 in 2010 and had to stop playing a year later. I recently started playing again in 2019 but found 5e to be lame and stupid; so I returned to 3.5 2 years ago.  So I will wait for as long as possible for answer.

      The fact that this thread is still open and I am posting a legitimate question ( which you can see by my post) means that my question has merit and is relevent. I am assuming you were not trying to be condesending towards my post/me and I most certainly do not mean to do so myself. 

       If you have an answer to my question that's fine I can wait for one. I am a very patient being. after all I waited for over a decade for an opportunity to play 3.5 again.  I can wait; I can most assuredly wait.


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## dave2008 (Dec 21, 2022)

Joshua McKee said:


> yes I am well aware that it is very old. It still does not negate the fact that I have a legitimate question regarding the subject. Especially since I am currently faced with such a scenario in my D&D game. No I am not mistaking 5e for 3.5. I started playing 3.5 in 2010 and had to stop playing a year later. I recently started playing again in 2019 but found 5e to be lame and stupid; so I returned to 3.5 2 years ago.  So I will wait for as long as possible for answer.
> 
> The fact that this thread is still open and I am posting a legitimate question ( which you can see by my post) means that my question has merit and is relevent. I am assuming you were not trying to be condesending towards my post/me and I most certainly do not mean to do so myself.
> 
> If you have an answer to my question that's fine I can wait for one. I am a very patient being. after all I waited for over a decade for an opportunity to play 3.5 again.  I can wait; I can most assuredly wait.



Sorry, I was just trying to be helpful. Usually people thank me when I let them know. I wanted to make sure you where aware because you may not get a response from such an old thread. Even more so as it is a D&D question in the Pathfinder forum and not a lot of people visit this forum.

Unfortunately I skipped 3e (from 1e to 4e to 5e for me), I so I can't help you with your issue.


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