# Elements of Magic Comments



## Mortaneus

Great work people!  A truly superb product.

I'm eagerly looking forward to putting this to use in my campaign.

A few comments, though:

I'm still puzzling what to do about the cleric.  I read the new review of the work, plus comments, and noticed the suggestion that a cleric merely be a fighter/mage.   The difficulty with that is then they'd have a decreased spell progression.  I'm going to have to come up with my own cleric class, I guess.


I noticed a quirk with the evoke [element] spell list.  Compare the ray and missle versions of the spells.

Evoke black element, 9th lvl, Mage20:
Ray: 17d6+20 = 122 max damage
Missles: 9 missles at 1d6+20 = 234 max damage

This isn't too bad considering you have to roll to hit with each missle.  Things break down when you look at the evoke force table, though.

Evoke force, 9th level, Mage20:
Ray: 9d4+20 = 56 max
Missles:  9 missles at 1d4+20 = 216 max

Even considering to-hit rolls, there is ABSOLUTELY no reason why someone would should ever throw a force ray when they could throw force missles.  Adding the /level damage to each missle causes things to get fairly out of whack, since EACH MISSLE gets that bonus damage, while the ray only gets it once.  The fact that the missles have a longer range than the ray makes it even worse.  Personally, I'm just going to remove the /level bonus damage from the missles and leave it at 1dX+1 per missle.


Biomatter evocations require some interpretation.  Are they just wood?  A big exploding lump of protoplasmic goo  might appeal to some, but I find the idea more than a bit gruesome.


A question:  What to do with spell-like abilities, spell-casting items, and such.  Leave them as they are?  That seems the easiest route.

I'm currently considering ways to incorporate staves and wands into this system.  Maybe as channels, mana storing items, or some such.


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## Cyberzombie

For the cleric, I'm recommending either the red or the grey mage, depending on whether you want them to have life or death magic.  I don't think a cleric with full spellcasting powers (like in the Core rules) would work very well -- it would overwhelm the poor mage class.  

Or you can make your own cleric class, as you wish.  Once it's in your game, it's yours.   

Evoke [Element]: I'll take a look at that.  That looks like it might need to be an errata.  The first one I've seen, though Ranger Wickett claimed he caught one.

Biomatter: It can be any sort of inert natural material, such as wood, horn, bone, or even goo, if you wish.  So an Evoke Biomatter missile could look like a sharpened horn thrown at the target.  An Evoke Area Biomatter sphere could be an explosion of splinters.  Whatever suits your character.

Spell-like abilities and items should be okay as-is; I tried to make my rules balance to the Core rules.  I haven't got any hard & fast rules on converting them (including wands and staves) as it quickly became obvious that I wasn't going to have room for them.  If you wish, let us know what you come up with.  We're always open to new ideas.  

Thanks for the comments.  Let me know if you have any more.


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## Cheiromancer

The Abjure Creature spell allows the target to attempt a will save to avoid a grapple by the abjured creature.  What is the DC of the save?  When Abjure Creature is used to ward an area, how big can the protected area be?


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## Cheiromancer

Is the xp cost in the Alter Reality table the minimum, or is it in addition to any xp costs that may be incurred for creating items or raising ability scores?


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## Cheiromancer

A 10th level caster could use alter reality  3 multiple times to get a +6 inherent bonus to some ability score, correct?  (Assuming he has enough xp, of course).


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## Cheiromancer

When you talk about Incorporeal creatures, you treat them as if they are ethereal (e.g. page 90, last paragraph under polymorph creature).  I had always thought they were distinct phenomena.

The duration entry for 0 level spells in the Invisibility chart: it should read 2 rounds, shouldn't it?


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## Cheiromancer

Sorry for the gratuitious post-count padding- but I've just discovered that short posts (without italics or urls or sigs) can actually be posted!


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## Cyberzombie

Abjure Creature: As with the save DC of all spells, the Will save is 10 + the spell level + (for tEoM mages) the Charisma bonus of the caster.

Warding with Abjure Creature: You have found an Official Errata (TM).  The area is a 5 ft. radius per spell level -- so you can't do this option with a cantrip, it's a 5 ft. radius with a 1st level spell, and 45 ft. radius with a 9th level spell.

Alter Reality: That is the minimum XP to cast the spell.  I'll have that clarified in the errata.

You are correct about the inherent ability bonus.  A 10th level character is unlikely to have 15,000 xp to use for one ability score, however.

Incorporeality: Well, the DMG and the Blink spell in the PHB seem to say that incorporeality and etherealness aren't the same thing.  Ethereal Jaunt, however, talks about how the ethereal character in incorporeal.  (Not to mention that's the way they've always done it in past editions.)  So, while the evidence leans in your favour, it's still not clear.

To clarify, so it doesn't matter which version is correct: Ethereal or incorporeal creatures can be targeted by this spell only if you are also ethereal or incorporeal.

Invisibility: Ouch!  That is a very bad cut-and-paste error.  Another errata.  Thanks for spotting that one.


Thanks for the comments.  I've looked over the book so many times that the errata know how to hide from me.


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## Mortaneus

Finally!  I can post again!

Anyway, here's what I attempted to post this past thursday:



			
				Cyberzombie said:
			
		

> *If you wish, let us know what you come up with.  We're always open to new ideas.
> *




Well, off the top of my head, here's a few ideas:

Mana Vault- It is capable of storing magical energy.  Basically, it works the same as a Crystal Capacitor from the PsiHB, has the same cost, and doesn't occupy any slots, regardless of form.  Personally, I like the idea of them being usually in the form of rings: ordinary rings, earrings, nose-rings, etc.  Thus, the mage with a ring on every finger becomes a possibility, since these don't take up a slot.  Also, restricted forms of these items are a possibility, providing energy points that can only be used for spells of a particular [element] or [creature], and costing less than the univeral form.

I say ring because the ring of spell storing becomes the ultimate version of this kind of item, providing 19 points (10th level spell).




Wands-  I've found the current form of wands to be a bit lackluster.  Using EoM, you can give them a much more telling role.  What if wands were items geared towards a particular [element] or [creature], and serve as power channels for spellcasting using that [element] or affecting that [creature], increasing the DC of spells cast through them by a certain amount, depending on the power of the wand.  Then you could have, for instance, a wand of fire that adds +2 DC to all Fire spells tossed through it (and maybe +1 DC to kindred elements].  Pricing it would be fairly easy.  Just base it on the price of a CHA increasing item of comparable power, and give a discount from that because it's limited application.  Maybe 2k GP for a +1 DC, 10k GP for a +2, 25k GP for a +3.  As for them affecting related elements, have the + count as 1 less.  So a +1 does nothing for related, a +2 gives a +1 for related, and +3 gives +2 to related.




Staves- Same reasons for changing as wands, but even more so. I've always thought staffs were given the short end of the stick under 3rd edition.  The sheer amount of money you pay for an item that goes after 50 (or less) uses is almost never worth it.  The only really worthwhile staff is the Staff of the Magi, and it's monstrously powerful.

With that in mind, what about making staffs be a universal casting tool?  Maybe working like the Torque of Psionic Might, reducing the mana point cost of spells.  Then you'd see mages running around with them.  Yet again, you could have limited forms of these, perhaps helping only for specific [element] or [creature] types, or maybe helping spells from a certain spell list, regardless of type.


Tokens- One shot bundles of magical energy.  Fetishes, Pawns of Vis, Enchanted gems, rare spell components.  Provide a certain amount of magical energy for a single spell, perhaps of a specific [element] or [creature] type, and then are consumed.


Anyway, just some ideas.  Most of these are easily turned into tables and formula.  Having the option of [element] and [creature] specific versions of each allows for a huge number of permutations of each, giving GMs some very flavorful magic items to toss around.  If you want, I could sit down and fully write each of these up. I'll probably wind up doing so eventually for my campaign anyway.


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## Mortaneus

BTW, a few other questions:

I noticed that the sub-classes of Mage, specifically the Black and White Mage, seem to merely be restricted versions of the Mage class.  Wouldn't it have made sense for them to have some factor to balance then with the much more versitile Mage, in case someone wants to use both?  I like the idea of being able to play a generalist mage, or being able to focus more specifically with a sub-class, and gain some other benefits on top of what you could have for being a mage.


Also, the radius on the hemispherical wall is pretty pathetic.  According to the table, a 10th level caster creating a wall with Wall of [element] 5 would either be able to cover 10 5'x5' squares, for a total surface area of 250 sq. feet, or a hemisphere 10' feet across, having a surface area of ~54 feet.  Why so small?  It seems the chart should be adjusted by a factor of about x4 for a hemispherical shape, or x2 for a sphere.


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## Great Cthulhu

Evoke Black (Element) and Evoke Force (including Evoke Area) mirror each other pretty closely on the amount of dice they use, except for the ray versions. Why does Force suddenly follow the Evoke White pattern for rays instead of the Black pattern it normally imitates? 

Why were Outsiders exempted from being affected by the Enchantment lists like Charm (Creature) and Dominate (Creature)? I don't see any particular reason that you can't select a Outsider version of these spell lists, and it would cover PC Outsiders as well (tieflings and Asimars, Half-fiends and Half-Celestials).

Why is Summon and Conjure (Elementals) capped at 16 Hit Dice vs the 27 Hit Dice for the Outsider versions? There ARE elementals with greater Hit Dice. Or are these just for the Elemental Spirits?

Is there any penalty for an Outsider or Elemental besides not going home for the Bind spell lists? There are plenty of minor and major demons that would see the Prime Material Plane as a great place to live (and where they arn't in fear for there very existence every moment of every day like they would be in the Abyss). It seems the Bind spell lists need a bigger stick to make the pact they agreed upon have force.


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## Justice Beloved

...  Any one came up with a way to cast a light spell??  For the life of me I couldn't figure out a way to make it happen, and since I still harbor evil thoughts towards the last mage who said "I just figure we'd have enough torches"  I always make sure it's in my books...  I'll post the list I've dreamed up, but let me know if you've found a way within the current rules to make shiney things which help avoid sudden spike traps.


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## Ausderop

Justice Beloved, how about Create Light Object?  You can do all sorts of stuff with it, like form a weapon, not just make a little light.
Some questions: why does the Elemental Spirits file mention Manifest Element and Lesser Telekinesis, while they aren't in the main book?  Why do Lightning element spells fail to meet any prerequisites for any non-[Element] spells other than Animate Object?  Why do the Class Magic sidebars say Paralysis and Petrification has prerequisites, but the spell list entry itself says nothing?  Just some weird stuff.  Also, the Red and Grey Mages seem underpowered in comparison to the Green Mage.  Same BAB, different spellcasting, Different (but not equal) special abilities)?  Weird.


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## volcivar

*High magic points*

Hello,

I enjoyed reading EoM.  It has spurred my imagination into creating a few lists out of the many of the PHB spells not represented.

I have at least one misgiving:  Spell Points.  I think the mage has way too many.  310 at level 20, not counting intelligence.  This is around 17 or 18 9th level spells.  I cannot imagine how this will effect an otherwise standard DnD senario.

I plan to playtest this in my home game, so I will find out for sure (at least for myself) if this is an excessive amount.

At the first few levels, there is no problem, just at high levels.

Can we get an explanation of why so many points?  I understand that Divination and Scry will be using spell points, and that the spells have been restructured so that you need to use a 5th level magic missile to get 5 missiles.  But being able to cast 17 9th level magic missile spells doing an average of 100+ damage (possibly more since touch attacks are easy to make) is scarry.

I know I am the only voice of dissent so far, but my complaint is a minor one, and one that I can fix in my home campaign easily enough.


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## Anon Dragon

I've been reading and re-reading this product for the past week and I must say I'm impressed.  

I did have a question that I've not been able to figure out.  Force objects cannot be destroyed except by disintegrate.  But disintegrate is not among the spell lists (as far as I can tell).  Did I miss something or was it over looked?


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## Phaedrus

*Why so points?*

If you add up the points (310), it's not quite enough to cast 4 of every spell level at 20th level... which is what a wizard can do.

If you remove points, the mage won't be able to cast as many spells per day as a wizard, even if he can cast more high level spells than a wizard.  I guess it's pick which one you like.

You could implement a "max spells per level" in addition to the spell points (I've seen a mana system use a stress level counter to limit the number of high level spells per day independent of the total number of spell points available. )

Perhaps the side-effects was an attempt to address this (as extreme side effects can be quite harmful)?


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## Victim

The chart for bonus spell points could be extended, as a mage could have a 34 int.

Compel [Creature]: dance refers to a chart for the AC penalties, etc for dancing.  These values are not on the above chart.

I don't really like some of the differences in the Abjure [Element] from Protection from [element] spell.  Many encounters, like such as battles against dragons or powerful wizards, seem to be designed around the large total coverage that Pro elements provides.  If the wimpy 25 HP mage takes 50 damage from a spell attack, then 18 points of resistance doesn't help him as much as,  60 points of protection over the duration.  

That reminds me.  The larger number of elements would require lots of changes to existing monsters.

The Alter Reality descirption seems to have an error.  When the section discusses wishing for a staff of power, the spell duplicated is teleport.  However, duplicating a 5th level spell requires a level 6 alter reality, not level 5, so 0-5th Alters would fail and the XP cost should be 3000.

Entrall doesn't list the concentration check DC for casting enchantment spells.  

I would have liked to see rules for combination effects - like an evoke are: fire and some other effect with a duration to create something akin to incendiary cloud - and minor talents for mage who can do something, put only poorly, like a master evoker with low level healing.


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## volcivar

Phaedrus,

Thanks for the clarification on total spell levels that can be cast.  I am afraid I did not think to do that math.  Limiting a particular spell level is an interesting idea though.

I did not see that side effects affected the caster (as long a s he is not in the area of effect).

Also I forgot to mention that it seems that at least 1 metamagic feat will be obsoleted by this system: Persistent Spell.

The spell has to be a Personal spell to be made persistent.  None of the spells listed are range: Personal.  A clever DM can fudge this a little for particular spells, I suppose.  It would also be nice for a list of spells (or spell lists) made available to show which ones work with this feat.

Was Haste left out on purpose?  Some think this spell is broken.  So I thought it may be possible that the author left it out for this reason.


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## Phaedrus

*Observations and suggestions*

There are many others besides Haste "missing."

What if you let Mages learn standard PHB (et al.) spells in lieu of a spell list?  They have 80 lists max (at 20th).  Perhaps learn only 70 lists and pick 10 "normal" spells?  But then how do you cast them?  Memorize as a slot like the old system, or throw them in the mix to cast at will (points permitting, of course)?

Going back to the spell points issue allowing too many 9th level spells a day... what if you use the Wizard's spells/day list instead of points?  At 20th level you get 4 of each level and that's it.  You can trade a higher slot for a lower spell, but you can't trade multiple lower slots to add up to a higher.  Too limiting?  Too complicated?

Other observations:
How do you Animate Dead?  Or create undead?
And with 20 elements to choose from, Outsider immunities to Fire/Cold/etc. become largely useless... just pick other elements to throw at them.  Get Biomatter, Crystal and Metal... no one is immune to bludgeon, pierce, AND slash damage...


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## volcivar

*spell level / day limit*

I was thinking a limit based on a stat, maybe Int or Wis.  Max spells of any level per day is equal to Int bonus or Wis bonus.  This would be fair and could get better as the character gets better.  It also forces the DM to more carefully consider Stat boosting items.

I think this is what I wil do, unless a better plan is offered.  I also plan on using the point-buy system for stats.  This forces a level playing field between players.  It also keeps characters with all 18's out of the game.


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## Victim

Haste was probably left out because there wasn't a place for it.  However, it wouldn't be too hard to create a Temporal spell line, with Haste, Time Stop, and stuff that gives initiative bonuses, haste bonuses to things besides AC, and maybe an aging attack.  Relics and rituals and MaoF (and R&R 2, which has essentially the same spell as in MaoF) provide enough spell effects to fill out the list.


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## r-kelleg

quite excellent book !

here are the thinkks that surprised me:

4 list/level seems to be alot. Of course, spells are less omnipotent than previously (about 12 charms [creature] instead of 2 in core books) but, each list represent 10 spells. so every level the wizzard add 40 spells to his spellbook. Isn't it too much (a core wizard, get 2 new spells per level, and a sorcerer gains a max of 3 !!!)

I was alos supprised wiht the new medium saving throw. not good not bad, but in the middle. I'm affraid this lead to strange thinks.

About multiclassing. Can a character be multiclass in Paladin and white mage ? how can we know the limits of his spellist ? (if any). 
Could a mage be black and white multiclass (seems useless, but who knows)

Skills also surprised me. It seems that most of the divine spells and "identification" spells are now skills. What did you push you in this way ? Or in other words why didn't you make a Divine spellist ?? (before I try to make one)

I was also surprised with the lack of haste and time stuff... but I'm pretty sure that pple will make it soon 

anyway that still a gooooood stuff


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## volcivar

*More lists*

In really enjoyed reading EoM, however some of my favorite spells seem to be missing.  I have the following questions:

1.  Will there be a web enhancement or follow-up product?

2.  If yes to #1 what is the "ball park" time frame we should anticipate?

3.  Is it ok for me to post lists on my website (for free) ?


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## Victim

In many cases, actually, each list represents 1 spell, or just a few.  For example, 6 levels of your Evoke Force spell list are essentially the same as 1 Magic Missile spell.  So that whole list might be 2 spells.  The good old Fireball is 3 spells by itself too.

There also needs to be a Dimensional spell list.  D-Anchor is really important when dealing with teleporting outsiders and people with the teleport list.


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## RangerWickett

Wow, lots of questions.  Let me take these one at a time.  

First of all, I will admit, we should've waited an extra two or three months and released a book that could do everything.  In fact, hopefully by February or March we _will_ be releasing the accessory book that _can_ do everything.

*To Anon Dragon*
A 'disintegration' effect is one of those things we forgot to add in.  Mild mistake there; we double-checked to have lots of different elements, but we didn't always make sure to have opposing elements to everything.  As a quick fix, I'd suggest 'Void' could equal disintegration.

*To Victim*
Another error.  I'd have to check with CZ for the exact answer, but I think it just denies them their Dex bonus to AC.

Regarding Alter Reality, yes, I don't have my copy available right now (replying from work), but if you're right, then yes, it should say Alter Reality 6.

For abjure elements, it wouldn't be too hard to provide an option based on total amount resisted, instead of amount per round.  I'd say something like 10 points at 1st level, 30 at 2nd, 60 at 3rd, 100 at 4th, 150 at 5th, and so on.  That's, what, an arithmetic sequence?  Algebraic sequence?  *grin*

I don't quite see your point about having to change creatures.  What do you mean?

Also, I don't have my copy available, so I don't quite know what you mean about the concentration DC.  I'll check when I get back home.

Combination effects will be in the accessory book.  If you've ever played the RPG Talislanta, they sidestep the problem of this complexity by saying that "ancient magic was able to combine different effects, but such knowledge has been lost, and current magic is limited to only single effects at a time."  

*To Volcivar*
We did not actively choose not to include haste.  Rather, we didn't have any time-based stuff in the book, and of the various spells seen in fantasy, speedy ones aren't the most common, so we kept it out in favor of other, more common types of magic.

However, we did consciously remove the restriction that you have to have an Intelligence score of 10 + spell level to cast spells of a particular level.  If you want, you could play something of an idiot savant, with great magical powers but little brains, insight, or personality.  So limiting spells per day of a given spell level by ability score could result in a character unable to use magic at all.    However, since the system is meant to be flexible, if you want your setting to have spellcasters that are intelligent because that fits your setting's feel, then by all means, go for it.  

Alternately, you could just say that no more than 1/2 of a characters MP can be used for a single spell level.  Or perhaps say that a single spell list can be used no more than once per level per day (with a possible explanation that the spirits of magic grow angry if they are called upon too often).  

I personally don't think you need to limit it, since even if you do cast 10 9th level spells to kill a demi-god dragon, you'll be out of luck when the dragon's kobold henchmen starts chasing after you with a pointy stick.    If you want to add restrictions, I'd say to do them for flavor reasons, not balance.

*To Phaedrus*
I think letting people spontaneously cast a single spell would not be overpowering at all.

To animate dead, take Infuse Creature with Death, then Animate Object.  If you want permanent undead, either go the mythical route and just have corpses be animated by uneasy spirits (without needing a mage to cast spells), or have a spellcaster Craft Wondrous Item to make a 'Corpse of Animating.'    Note that this would technically make the creature a construct, but calling it undead for the purposes of 'Abjure Undead' would be perfectly fair.  This is one thing that I do wish we had done more work on, since undead are pretty staple creatures.

Regarding outsider immunities, follow the guidelines in Abjure Element to have them have 1/2 resistance to related elements.  Anyway, it's no fun fighting a monster that is totally immune to your magical attacks.  Creatures should have elemental resistances for flavor reasons (a fire demon being immune to fire), but not just to make life difficult for adventurers.

*To R-Kelleg*
A multiclassed paladin white mage is very possible.  You add their caster levels together.  For purposes of spell lists they can learn, whenever they take a level of a particular class, they can only choose spell lists from that class.  However, they can cast any spell list they know.  So a paladin 10/white mage 1 could choose Evoke Area Force, something a paladin could not take.  She could cast it just the same as any other spell, since the MP pool is shared between all spellcasting classes.

The Medium saving throw was first introduced in the Star Wars D20 version.  I don't see why it'd be a problem.

Having divination spells be skills reflects that a lot of spellcasters in fantasy literature seem to have sort of a 'magic sense,' without having to cast spells.

And now I'm off work, so I must go.


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## netnomad

First off: Great Book!  I’m adding it my home brew as “High Magic”.  Only most talented and “special” people can learn to cast these kinds of spells.  This has been the magic system i haev been waiting for.  Now I just have to finish reading it all. 

I had some random ideas pop in my head:

Armor should not have an arcane spell failure but "somatic" spell failure.  That seams to make so much more sense.

For spell lists you can combine the lists together on the fly but they due have a pentalty.  They would cost 2.5x the normal casting cost and require a spell check that has a DC  of 10+ the levels of both spells.  If the PC fails the roll the spell does not fizzle but continues to the next round.  The PC has to make the spell check again but gets a +2 to there spell check.  If the PC rolls a 1 the spell fumbles and you have to roll on the Wild Spellcraft table.  

Hmmm… I must think on this.

-NetNomad


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## MDSnowman

Also for the limiting option you can always use the psionic rules in R&R2 for an option. I think it was something along the lines of "if you use more than 3/4 or your power points you become fatigued" I'm not quoting exactly mostly because I cant remember though it may not be legal to do so


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## UoR11

I'm really liking the Elements so far. I'm starting to think of a semi-classless set up where all the characters would be similar to the Mage classes, with maybe some more choices of boons. About this February or March supplement, I'm guessing it's not a reprint, right? I can see there being a lot of room for expansion, both in adding spell lists and maybe having more differentiation between the various Evoke [Element] lists, depending on the element used.


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## Cyberzombie

Hola!

Between Real World time constraints, and the board being down when I try to get on, I haven't had time to reply here.  I'm going to save the thread, however, and work up answers offline.  As soon as possible, I'll work up and FAQ and errata list, and either post it here, or provide a link to a text document if it gets too long.  I'm getting lots of good feedback in other threads and in email, too, so I've got a lot of stuff to work through.  But I will get it to y'all asap.


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## Alzrius

Cyberzombie said:
			
		

> *As soon as possible, I'll work up and FAQ and errata list, and either post it here, or provide a link to a text document if it gets too long.*




Why not just incorporate all this errata directly into the product? You can do like Monte and have a PDF patch available for anyone who bought it before, and people who buy it later will just get the version with the errata incorporated. I suggest this because, not having bought the product yet, EoM sounds top-notch, and I'd love to see it that much better by seemlessly integrating the errata into the finished work.


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## Cyberzombie

I have no idea if a patch is possible -- I know exactly nothing about making PDFs; I don't know if Monte has access to something special -- but if one is possible, I will ask Morrus to do one.  The FAQ list and errata I know I can do, so I'm working it up.  The FAQ will be seperate, in any case.


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## Alzrius

Cyberzombie said:
			
		

> *I have no idea if a patch is possible -- I know exactly nothing about making PDFs; I don't know if Monte has access to something special -- but if one is possible, I will ask Morrus to do one.*




Monte's access to something special was a guy named Alan Card (I didn't intend for that statement to sound dirty, honestly). Monte had admitted previously that he also knew nothing of making PDF patches, and Alan came along and took the errata and did it for him, making the various patches for early Malhavoc Press releases. I don't know the guy's email address or how to get in touch with him, but its a start. Hope that helps.


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## Selganor

Maybe I just have to reread EoM a few times, but I can't find a way to do my favorite spell with this magic system: "Mount"

I only recently dicovered how usefull this spell can be but so far (on my first read-through) can't find any way to do so.

Maybe Summon (Biomatter) but I'm not too sure.

How do I create other Summoning Spells (like Summon Nature's Ally and the like) ?


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## RangerWickett

The simplest thing would be to summon a Celestial/Infernal/Axiomatic/Anarchic Horse.  Alternately, a slightly lenient application of Infuse Object with Life could work if you wanted to create a mobile creature out of existing matter.  It wouldn't be able to fight, just move.


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## Dark Eternal

First and foremost, my compliments to the chef!  EoM is a fantastic product;  I had been working on an idea quite similar to what is here, and I just couldn't figure out how to handle a lot of factors.  The solutions in Elements to the problems I was dealing with are simple but elegent, and to say that I'm impressed is to risk understatement.  Thank you to all involved for making this book available; I'll be quite interested in getting my hands on supplimentary material for this system.

Ok, now on to business.  The biggest question I've had so far has to do with the side effects; particularly the side effects of the Life element.  Why does it create heat?  I had briefly had visions of White Mages being able to use Evoke Area Life, Create Life Object and Wall of Life spells to fashion wonderous and strange types of healing effects, but my dungeon master pointed out that these things would deal damage from heat at the same time that they healed damage!  Was this intentional, and is there any way to prevent this side effect?

My next biggest question was about the Biomatter element, but I've already mostly answered it from previous comments in this thread... ; )  One remaining question, though - do organic remains of living things count as 'Biomatter'?  eg. would Abjure Biomatter protect someone from organic but non-living weapons?

That's all I have for now, but I might have a few more questions as we get closer to starting our new campaign (which will be using the Elements of Magic system for spellcasting - I'm very excited about it).  Thanks again - for everything!  ; )


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## Victim

There needs to be a side effect altering metamagic feat.  Maybe +1 level for adjusting the side effect intenisty by 1.


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## Anon Dragon

Victim,
     I would go even further.  RangerWickett stated that combination effects would become available in the next rule book.  Why keep using Meta feats, when meta lists would serve so much better(if possible). 

    There are several examples, one would increase (or decrease) the elemental side-effect.  One could increase duration, eventually replacing permanency (based on the original duration).  Another would add Contingencies to spells for triggers.  (a delay blast fireball, a force effect in retaliation of getting hit, or a teleport when disabled.)  I think that 90% of the current metaspell-feats can be altered in this manner.

I wonder if this is something that the authors have planned for the next book and I'm eager to see what they come up with.  I only wonder if this will leave the system balanced?


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## towerwarlock

*Elements of Magic and other spells*

I have enjoyed the new magic of the Elements of Magic, and I think that those who don't see their favorite spell or want to create Undead might consider the Alter Reality spell list and use it to duplicate a spell effect.  After all, the Player's Handbook and other books all list the spell level for the spells, it would be easy to  use the Alter Reality spell list to recreate these spells.


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## r-kelleg

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> *To R-Kelleg*
> 
> The Medium saving throw was first introduced in the Star Wars D20 version.  I don't see why it'd be a problem.




Because none of the class ever proposed in all the D20 fantasy oriented books I saw used them   

Understand me well, I think that those medium SavingThrow are an excellent idea. but They are alone in the DnD world. May be the monk should be revised or the barbarian or the rogue... 
Anyway, that's a detail. This system is amazing. We will play with it next sunday. I can't wait


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## Cyberzombie

I've saved this page again, and I'm adding questions and comments to the FAQ/Errata sheet I'm working up.  I should have a first draft within a week, maybe less.  I want to have it as complete as possible.


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## nharwell

*missing spells*

I noticed that several spells are referenced that are not in the book. Were these cut for space? If so, might they appear in a future supplement?

Some examples are Telekinesis (mentioned p.15) and Glamers/Change Self (mentioned p.20 & 84). I suspect the "missing" spell lists would cover many of the PHB spells that aren't in EoM...


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## G.A. Donis

I just bought EoM and haven't quite digested it all yet, but I think Telekinesis would fall under the "Infuse Object with [air, force, life or sonic].  Those elements give the flight ability when used with Infuse Creature with [element].


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## G.A. Donis

*Evoke Life*

I noticed that Jennas the Hind uses evoke life 1 as a cure light wounds.  She uses this as a touch spell with a focus.  Would it screw things up (balance wise) if a mage was allowed to use the ray or missile versions of this spell to cure HP damage?  This could be pretty handy (not to mention cinematicly cool).  I would think that it would still require a successful ranged touch attack.  

On a similar note, the evoke area life spell would be an area effect healing?  Am I interpreting this correctly?  A burst of white light and everybody in the area of effect (15' fan) is healed 1d8+1/level for the first level spell?

I'm sure I'll have more questions soon (I'm looking forward to the faq).  So far the book looks very good and I'm looking forward learning how to use this system and to future books that may add to it.


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## Wormwood

edit: wrong thread.


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## r-kelleg

I have a question for the FAQ
where is the faq ?


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## G.A. Donis

I don't think the faq is up and running yet.  I guess we'll have to wait out the holidays.


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## Cyberzombie

*Re: Evoke Life*



			
				G.A. Donis said:
			
		

> *I noticed that Jennas the Hind uses evoke life 1 as a cure light wounds.  She uses this as a touch spell with a focus.  Would it screw things up (balance wise) if a mage was allowed to use the ray or missile versions of this spell to cure HP damage?  This could be pretty handy (not to mention cinematicly cool).  I would think that it would still require a successful ranged touch attack.*




Yes, you can cure at a distance with Evoke Life.  You do have to make a successful ranged touch attack.  You can heal undead with Evoke Death the same way.


The FAQ is indeed a casualty of the holidays.  I'm still working on it, though.


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## Slander

*Patch Utility*

First, lemme give a heartfelt "Thanks" for this book.  I'd been attempting to create a Tal-like magic system ever since I downloaded a copy of the 4th Edition preview, and even if it wasn't your intention, you blended the openness of the Tal system with d20 masterfully.  My group and I will be singing your praises for some time .

After reading this thread I noticed you were not sure if you could make a patch file for the .PDF.  While this would be a Windows-only solution, I would point your attention to the following bit of software: PatchWise (http://www.hanmen.com/patchwise/pwfre.htm).  It is a free application, even for commercial use (though donations are apparently appreciated), and it allows you to create executable files that can update a PDF with your changes (it can update any file, really, but the book is all that matters ).

For the record, no I am not in any way associated with the company ... jes looking forward to errata.  Thanks again for the great product!


Slander


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## Plane Sailing

r-kelleg said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Because none of the class ever proposed in all the D20 fantasy oriented books I saw used them
> 
> *




They are used in the Wheel of Time d20 RPG as well. In fact they have been used in *everything* that WotC produced since D&D... I wouldn't be surprised if they managed to make their way into the revised D&D due out later this year


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## Dave Blewer

Great Book, I am really looking forward to integrating this system into my homebrew world.

*This post in no way should be seen as my blatant attempt to subscribe to this thread so that I can get easy notification of the patch.*


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## Selganor

I'm still wondering if I should give the Mages in Glantri in my Mystara Campaign the EoM-Magic instead of the "normal" magic. This way they might well be as snobby as they always appear compared to other spellcasters. ;D


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## Dave Blewer

*Slight ranger confusion*

On page 32 the book states that rangers gain +1 to various skills plus weapon damage.  It then states that this bonus also applies to the chance to hit bonus on page 33.

I am seriously loving everything I have read so far by the way


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## Dave Blewer

I have some more questions.  They have probably been asked and answered elsewhere, so please excuse any redundancy in this post.

Abjure [Creature]: The Warding component of this spell does not state the size of area that can be warded

Abjure [Magic]: The spell description of this spell implies that the caster can have access to five different uses for this spell.  However the Dwarven Mage Maelus Kaison (detailed on page 48-49) has a Spirit Mask spell that only accesses the Non Detection part of Abjure [Magic].  How about giving a mage who does something like this a bonus to the effect that he has chosen?

Favoured Class: How is this effected by these rules?  Do Gnomes and Elves  now have a choise of either Mage or a seperate coloured Mage as their favoured class?

How do I cast a Comprehend Languages or Tongues Spell?

Command [Creature]: This ones a little nit picky.  the 5th level version causes an individual 1d6 damage per hour (with a save). 6th level spell states as 5th level except that the target suffers 2d6 damage per day that they fight the spell.  I take it that this damage replaces the 1d6 per hour from the 5th level version?

Companion [Creature] I am a bit confused on this one.  If you have Companion [Animal] and no other Companion [Creature] list you can only have 1 HD of companion per spellcasting level (+ a similar level of Animal HD back home playing guard dog.

If you have two Companion [Creature] lists (say Animal and Beast),  then you can have up to 1HD per level in each category.  So A 1st level Green Mage with these lists could have a Badger and Stirge companion, plus another Stirge and a Monkey back at his home base.

Where I get confused is the text on page 66 that states that a typical starting companion [creature] is a 2HD Wolf.  What am I missing/not understanding?

Also I was expecting that this list would give you the ability to Awaken a Companion Creature... I suppose that Alter Reality could be used to do this very slowly or there might be something later that I haven't seen yet.

Compel [Creature]: The Dance component of this spell states that the penalties to AC, skills, damage, attacks etc are included in the table on page 66.  They are not.

Enthrall [Creature]: What is the area of effect for this spell?

I'll add more if I come across them.  Really Love the Book though!


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## Dave Blewer

*More questions...*

It seems to me that the Grenade component of Infuse Object with [Element] should have a saving throw for those caught in the blast radius.


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## RangerWickett

Abjure [Creature]: The Warding component of this spell does not state the size of area that can be warded

_I think there was a post early about this.  Something like 5-ft. radius/level?_

Abjure [Magic]: The spell description of this spell implies that the caster can have access to five different uses for this spell.  However the Dwarven Mage Maelus Kaison (detailed on page 48-49) has a Spirit Mask spell that only accesses the Non Detection part of Abjure [Magic].  How about giving a mage who does something like this a bonus to the effect that he has chosen?

_Each spell does only one thing from those five.  So for Abjure Magic you have to choose whether you want an antimagic effect, or nondetection, or spell resistance, etc.  You'd have to cast it 5 times to get all 5 effects, but you only have to choose the spell list once._

Favoured Class: How is this effected by these rules?  Do Gnomes and Elves  now have a choise of either Mage or a seperate coloured Mage as their favoured class?

_Forget favored classes and just ignore them.  I completely see no reason for them, except for flavor's sake, to persuade more people to play warrior Dwarves and sneaky Halflings.  You don't need to use them at all.  If you want to, though, just use the generic Mage class as the favored class for all races that currently have a spellcasting class favored._

How do I cast a Comprehend Languages or Tongues Spell?

_*coughs nervously*  Yeah, we forgot to put that one in.  If you want a sorta freaky application, you could use Polymorph Sonic 3 or 4 as a way to emulate Tongues.  For comprehend languages, maybe it could be a magical application of the Decipher Script skill.  Use 1 MP to understand a document of any language.

I skipped a couple of your questions because I don't know the answers off the top of my head._

Compel [Creature]: The Dance component of this spell states that the penalties to AC, skills, damage, attacks etc are included in the table on page 66.  They are not.

_I think they just lose their Dex bonus to AC and are considered flat-footed.  I might be wrong._


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## Dave Blewer

Thanks for the replies


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## Dave Blewer

*Yet another question...*

But I am really near the end now  

The Sight spell mentions that it cannot effect Phantasms because they effect the mind. Where is rge Phantasm spell or effect ?


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## Bandido

I'd really love to get _The Elements of Magic_, but I hate reading PDFs off computers. Are you going to be doing a print version in the near future, or at least making it a 'Print on Demand' product at RPGNow? Home-printed stuff is never the same.


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## Moonsword

When is that FAQ going to be ready, and where will it be posted?  I'd like to look through it.

Great product, very interesting ideas.  I'm looking at mixing it with d20 Modern in a few ways.


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## Dave Blewer

*Another Question*

Abjure Humanoid... Would this protect against/Ward/Bind all Humanoids or would the Mage have to specify at the time of casting Humans, Orcs, Goblinoids, Giants etc...?


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## RangerWickett

Abjure Humanoid would protect against all types of humanoids and giants.


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## nopantsyet

Bandido said:
			
		

> *I'd really love to get The Elements of Magic, but I hate reading PDFs off computers. Are you going to be doing a print version in the near future, or at least making it a 'Print on Demand' product at RPGNow? Home-printed stuff is never the same. *




My (thus far unexecuted) plan is to take it to Kinkos, laser print it 2-up, double-sided on heavy tabloid-sized paper, using a cardstock weight for the cover, then staple-bind it.  The result will be a letter-sized book.  I figure it'll cost less than $10, but I'll post once I've actually done it if you're interested to know.


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## Alzrius

Nopantsyet, I just wanted to add that I'm personally very interested to know how that goes. I buy a lot of PDFs and always print them out, but many don't staple well or the papers get lost, etc. Binding them has long been a dream of mine.

If your plan works, could you post pics of how the final copy turned out, and then list those steps again in order? Thanks.


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## Dave Blewer

> Abjure Humanoid would protect against all types of humanoids and giants.




so if a mage warded an area to stop a group of Orcs and Ogres from stealing an important magic item and a Mindflayer also arrived in the monstrous raiding party and also tried to steal the item.

The Orcs and Ogres would have to make a saving throw to enter the warded area.

The Mind Flayer wouldn't - he is an aberration.

The PC group would have to make a saving throw to enter the area in order to reach the item before the Mind Flayer.

The caster would presumably not have to make a saving throw to enter the warded area?


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## Bandido

nopantsyet said:
			
		

> *
> 
> My (thus far unexecuted) plan is to take it to Kinkos, laser print it 2-up, double-sided on heavy tabloid-sized paper, using a cardstock weight for the cover, then staple-bind it.  The result will be a letter-sized book.  I figure it'll cost less than $10, but I'll post once I've actually done it if you're interested to know. *




Kinkos?  

Anyway, yeah, I'd love to know how much it cost. And could you explain how you did it, like Alzrius said? Then I'll know if it's worth me doing something similar. 

Mmmmmm, Natural20 employees? Are you going to do a print version of EoM? If not, can you at least put it on the Print on Demand list at RPGNow? Please?


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## G.A. Donis

I just printed mine out at work and had someone there use our binder that is used for some manuals we supply.  Of course, this left me with a black and white book, but I'm all for keeping it cheap.  

I also spent some time and reformatted the Elemental Spirits document before I printed it.  I just got a hair and needed nice breaks between the pages with a Spirit's description appearing complete on a page instead of flowing to the next page.  Just my little version of OCD.


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## Alzrius

Bandido said:
			
		

> *Kinkos?  *




You don't have Kinkos in the UK?? I'm shocked, we have them even here in Japan. They started as just a professional copy service, but they've since expanded into a larger service on professional printing, document production, and much more. Go here for more information about them: http://www.kinkos.com/


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## Krizzel

Wow.  I just finished making my first EoM character, and I had to stop by and say that EoM is *very* nice   We're starting up a small game over in the IC forum to take EoM on a test drive - you can take a look at my character and my gushing over the spell lists here.

Skimming through this thread it looks like everyone's made the same discoveries I have.  I really like the usefulness and flexibility of the spell lists and I can't wait to try making a couple more characters.

I need to go through the pdf a little more before I start making more useful comments (I think I only looked carefully at perhaps a dozen spell lists while making my character), but there are a couple of requests I'd like to start off with.  

1)  I'd like to see a chart of all the spell lists, with prerequisites listed and perhaps brief descriptions of the general effects of each list (if that is even possible given how much you can do with one list).  Something like the spell charts at the beginning of the Spells chapter in the PHB is what I'm thinking of, that could be used to quickly pick out potential lists when you're building a character (I used the contents page for this).  Also charts listing the creature types, element types, and (for the sake of completeness) outsider types to be used along with the chart of spell lists would help.  Finding the list of creature types didn't take me too long, but it would be nice to have a reference chart for convenience.

2)  A brief description of each element, with examples for what you get when you evoke, infuse, create, polymorph, etc. with it.  I know someone asked about evoke biomatter before, and I was wondering about evoke void.  Some of the others could be questionable too.  I know you can interpret them many ways, but a few examples would help get the ideas flowing.  There was also a suggestion about using Polymorph Sonic to emulate the _tongues_ spell.  I'd particularly like some ideas for what Polymorph [Element] can do.

3)  I still like magic-users learning from spellbooks (though the memorization stuff is a welcome removal).  I'd like guidelines/rules options for mages learning their spell lists instead of gaining them automatically.  Specifically whether it would be unbalancing for a mage to know less or more than the number of lists given on table 1-1 for a given level.

Any of these things could be something from a web-enhancement to just a discussion on the boards.  I'd be happy to do some of the work of writing them up.  And if they've _already_ been discussed, anyone please feel free to direct me to the relevant thread


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## masque

Krizzel said:
			
		

> *
> 1)  I'd like to see a chart of all the spell lists, with prerequisites listed and perhaps brief descriptions of the general effects of each list (if that is even possible given how much you can do with one list).  Something like the spell charts at the beginning of the Spells chapter in the PHB is what I'm thinking of, that could be used to quickly pick out potential lists when you're building a character (I used the contents page for this).  Also charts listing the creature types, element types, and (for the sake of completeness) outsider types to be used along with the chart of spell lists would help.  Finding the list of creature types didn't take me too long, but it would be nice to have a reference chart for convenience.
> *




For my personal use I have a document that has a master spell list with names, which class can use the spell list, and prerequisites.  After that it is divided by lists, so that it has only the lists which a class can use.  Farther down is a crude spell tree, and at the end the element, creature, and outsider lists are separated so that one doesn't have to hunt through everything.

Sounds pretty much like what you want.  I'm still trying to figure out what kind of information I should put on it before I put it out on the web.  "For use with Elements of Magic by Natural 20 Press" maybe?  On a footer or on a separate page?  Eh, I'm paranoid, what can I say.


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## RangerWickett

masque said:
			
		

> *
> 
> For my personal use I have a document that has a master spell list with names, which class can use the spell list, and prerequisites.  After that it is divided by lists, so that it has only the lists which a class can use.  Farther down is a crude spell tree, and at the end the element, creature, and outsider lists are separated so that one doesn't have to hunt through everything.
> 
> Sounds pretty much like what you want.  I'm still trying to figure out what kind of information I should put on it before I put it out on the web.  "For use with Elements of Magic by Natural 20 Press" maybe?  On a footer or on a separate page?  Eh, I'm paranoid, what can I say. *




Do not do this, or we will track you down and dislocate every non-jointed bone in your body.  You won't like that, will you?

Just kidding.  Go for it.  Heck, upload it here (though you should start a new thread, for better visibility).  I had a cheat sheet of this sort myself that I used to doublecheck the text while editing it, but if yours is nice, we might co-opt it and put it in EoM2.


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## masque

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> *
> Do not do this, or we will track you down and dislocate every non-jointed bone in your body.  You won't like that, will you?
> *



Oh, okay. ^_^


> *
> Just kidding.  Go for it.  Heck, upload it here (though you should start a new thread, for better visibility).  I had a cheat sheet of this sort myself that I used to doublecheck the text while editing it, but if yours is nice, we might co-opt it and put it in EoM2. *




I wouldn't exactly say nice, but I find it functional.  I'll have to do it after lunch as my roommates are kidnapping me to have a decent meal.  Look for it soon (being a relative term, of course).


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## masque

*Why Microsoft Needs to Die*

So I've been trying to get it to upload, but the file says it's 287 KB, 72.0 KB on disk.  Hmm...  I might have to post the thing up in pieces, with the master spell table in one and the other 11 pages in the other.  Just working on it, mind you.


----------

