# Maze spell: do you allow it?



## Aaron (Oct 3, 2009)

Straight to the topic: the sorcerer of the group I'm dming has reached the 16h caster level and would select the Maze spell.

The spell in itself seems to me a little over the edge, if compared to other core 8th level spells, but I would like to obtain some feedback before saying "No", which is something I'm not accustomed to do with my players.

Thanks in advance.


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## frankthedm (Oct 3, 2009)

Plenty of other spells to worry about is my first thought. Any particular reason you'd worry about this spell?

* in related matters, In My Game if a minotaur has the spell cast on them, they can chose to enter the maze as an _Immediate action_ and use it as a _Dimension Door_.


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## Nebten (Oct 3, 2009)

Over the edge . . . its an 8th level spell! That's what they are supposed to be =v) While there is no save it can be affected by SR. As he is fighting something that has a 10 or greater Int, they will be back in the fight soon. 

Besides its a classic spell.


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## RangerWickett (Oct 3, 2009)

Thing is, maze doesn't defeat the enemy; it just delays you fighting him. It's very strong when the party has only one or a handful of foes, but if they're fighting larger groups of enemies, it's perfectly fine.

And really fun with _spell turning_ enemies.


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## ashockney (Oct 3, 2009)

No spell of the level (16th) can do what this spell can do without a save.  It is ignorantly potent against elite or solo high level BBEG's, which makes it inherently overpowered.  Any spell in which the DM is FORCED to change their encounters to fit the new, expansive powers, something isn't right.  (I'm looking at you, haste.)

Now, having said that, does it single-handedly RUIN a campaign?  No, certainly not.  If your sorc could use some time in the spotlight, this will give it to him, especially RIGHT at 16th.

As others have indicated, there are four primary "counters" to the maze domination effect: minotaurs, insanely high int, MR, and larger encounter sizes.  The MR and larger encounters will be a natural outgrowth of higher levels, so it won't be too impactful in the big scheme.  

If you wanted to "nerf" it a bit, offer a standard Will save as a FULL ROUND ACTION.  Simplifies (less sub-rules to remember) and still a powerfully effective spell, and one that against the right target (a giant) can be devastating.


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## Ahnehnois (Oct 3, 2009)

The 3.0 version did not allow SR, and I didn't like that.

As for the current version, however, it is good for two things: stalling so you can buff/heal/run and splitting up groups of powerful enemies. By itself the spell is totally harmless. I have no problem with it at all.

By comparison, Otto's Irresistable Dance allows to save _and_ makes the subject highly vulnerable to attack, but has a shorter duration and range. Seems equitable to me.


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## the Jester (Oct 3, 2009)

_Maze_ is absolutely okay. It's not even especially powerful for its level, which also includes goodies like _Otto's irresistible dance, horrid wilting, prismatic wall_ and so forth... and that's just from the PH! 8th level spells should kick tons of ass, that is what makes 'em 8th level. 

I think that there are plenty of other 8th level spells that are harder to deal with, probably even without thinking about metamagicked spells in 8th-level slots. Hell, just be glad he isn't taking _mind blank._


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## Rabulias (Oct 3, 2009)

Some may think this heresy, but I have sometimes thought that Maze is a bit weak for an 8th level spell. 

As RangerWickett notes, it just delays your confrontation. You can use that time to get flee, deal with other foes, or to buff up and get in position for your opponent's return from the Maze.

If you just want to flee, Greater Teleport (7th level) is about the same effect. To take one foe out of the fight for a few rounds, I consider this like Hold Monster (5th Level) but with no saving throw; is no save really worth a 3-level increase in spell level for this effect? True, saving throws are better than Int checks for many creatures, but held victims can be wounded, CDG'd, tied up, caught in area effects, etc., while those in the Maze are safe from harm, so I think it balances out.

Note also the spell description says the victim of the Maze spell "_may_ attempt a DC 20 Intelligence check to escape" (emphasis mine).

I read that to mean that the victim may choose to remain in the Maze and do some prep/buffing of their own before they leave... and a desperate wizard could Maze himself to get 10 minutes away from someone or something.


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## Mr. Wilson (Oct 3, 2009)

Maze is fine, l2play.  Nerf SR.  K thanks bye.

Er, sorry, wrong forums.

In all honesty, there are much worse spells at 8th level.  I've really not seen anyone use maze except as a means of then using teleport to escape.

At 8th level, there are some killer spells much more damaging than Maze.


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## Nifft (Oct 3, 2009)

IMHO _polymorph any object_ would promote much more actual abuse.

Don't worry about little ol' _maze_.

Cheers, -- N


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## Dice4Hire (Oct 3, 2009)

Yes, with HOrrid WIlting and Poly any Object there, taking Maze seems kind of weak for the single 8th elvel choice. FOr th second 8th level spell, it looks better, but not the first one. Poly any Object can do a whole lot in and out of combat.


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## ashockney (Oct 3, 2009)

What did Trailblazer do?


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## Allenchan (Oct 3, 2009)

Honestly, in my experience it is used essentially as a way to delay/seperate someone from the combat. In which case, it is very weak. Why? Because Force Cage does the exact same thing and is a level lower, also no save.


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## Destil (Oct 4, 2009)

There's no problem with maze in 3E. It's the ultimate 'crowd control' spell, nearly impossible to defend against, but it does nothing else and the duration isn't great unless you're using it on something stupid. A fine niche spell, and for a sorcerer with a lot of area blasting options and utility already a good one.


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## ProfessorCirno (Oct 4, 2009)

Maze is fine.

And what's so bad about Otto's? D:

http://ettin.rancossack.com/demogorgon.gif


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## Nebten (Oct 4, 2009)

Allenchan said:


> In which case, it is very weak. Why? Because Force Cage does the exact same thing and is a level lower, also no save.



 Forgecage is a heck of a lot more expensive though. 1,500 gp in ruby dust, ouch!


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## Runestar (Oct 4, 2009)

> Forgecage is a heck of a lot more expensive though. 1,500 gp in ruby dust, ouch!



Though you can replicate it via greater shadow evocation (8th lv spell), thereby eschewing the need for a costly material component. And I don't think the 60% real drawback affects any part of the replicated spell meaningfully (how do you have a wall of force that is only 60% effective in blocking?).

So yeah, maze can actually be interpreted as being weaker than greater shadow evocation...

I suppose maze would require you to rethink how you design encounters though. In the very least, it discourages the use of dual-monsters of roughly equivalent cr with moderate cr, such as 2 death giants, since you can expect one of them to be mazed, and the other giant to be taken care of by the time maze wears off. 

But then again, I could also argue that this may not necessarily make the battle any easier, since  it would discourage the use of AoE effects (as you can only affect 1 enemy at a time). So depending on how your party fights, they may not really be any better of (not forgetting that maze itself already uses up a 8th lv slot). 

It is also quite powerful against the party as well. Taking the party cleric out of the fight can pretty much turn the tide of the battle. But no fun for the player who effectively has to sit out the entire battle.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Oct 4, 2009)

ashockney said:


> What did Trailblazer do?




Nothing (yet).

I liked one of the suggestions made whereby spending a standard action granted you a save; I'd take that a step further, allowing a bonus to the save for high INT; and yet another step further and stipulate that the creature so banished doesn't _have _to try to find his way out immediately.

He might have things he'd like to do while he's away on mazecation.

All of which, admittedly, is just talking off the top of my head. I wouldn't touch anything without a clear plan in place that knows exactly what type of play experience is desired at such high levels, and which takes all spells of comparable level into account. 

I know what works for *me*; but I don't know what the consensus is.

I don't think it's worthwhile to publish "whack-a-mole" solutions since it's fundamentally easier for the DM to exercise that kind of control himself. If maze isn't working for your campaign, whack it yourself.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Oct 4, 2009)

There's absolutely nothing wrong with Maze.

Time Hop is a low level psionic version of basically the same damn thing, except it allows a save and has aid usage (hop an endangered ally or a dominated one out of the fight for a while) since you can set how long it lasts, and thus have an idea of how long they'll be gone.

Also compare with the level 4 Shadow Well from Spell Compendium, which allows a save, but when the victim comes back, he is shaken.

If it weren't for the not allowing a save, Maze would be worthless at level 8.


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## Thanee (Oct 4, 2009)

ashockney said:


> No spell of the level (16th) can do what this spell can do without a save.  It is ignorantly potent against elite or solo high level BBEG's, which makes it inherently overpowered.




And what exactly does it do against them?

Bye
Thanee


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## stonegod (Oct 4, 2009)

We used Maze to great effect in Savage Tide by _mazing_ Andregost (the big three-headed BBEG of DOOM). Then someone cast _dimension lock_ where the maze occurred. Had a lot of fun discussing what should happen as the maze effect would have to pierce dimension to get big A back, but dim lock prevented that. The DM grinned and then said Big A never reappeared... there, that is.

Turned out, he appeared on the material plane, in Elminster's bedroom. AFter rampaging a bit, the sage dropped him off in front of my wizard after dim locking the area. Bastard. 

Footnote: This wasn't the first time my character randomly teleported something bad into FR. I'll tell you about the vrock with a savage pearl in Waterdeep...


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## Wulf Ratbane (Oct 4, 2009)

Thanee said:


> And what exactly does it do against them?




It completely hoses them. 

Lanchester's Square Law is no minor thing, and removing a BBEG from the safety of his minions so that you can dogpile him later (yes, even if just a round later...) is a Big Deal.

That said-- there's other ways to majorly hose a BBEG with 8th level spells (and lower).


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## Nifft (Oct 4, 2009)

Wulf Ratbane said:


> It completely hoses them.
> 
> Lanchester's Square Law is no minor thing, and removing a BBEG from the safety of his minions so that you can dogpile him later (yes, even if just a round later...) is a Big Deal.
> 
> That said-- there's other ways to majorly hose a BBEG with 8th level spells (and lower).



 8th level spells ought to be a Big Deal. If they're not, why bother having them in the game?

That said, this effect isn't a new thing at all -- from _entangle_ to _wall of ice_ to _resilient sphere_, opposition-splitting effects have been around for many, many levels before 8th.

Cheers, -- N


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## Thanee (Oct 4, 2009)

Wulf Ratbane said:


> It completely hoses them.
> 
> Lanchester's Square Law is no minor thing, and removing a BBEG from the safety of his minions so that you can dogpile him later (yes, even if just a round later...) is a Big Deal.




Sure, it's a useful effect (it should be!), but that it "completely hoses" them is a bit much said...

Bye
Thanee


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## Wulf Ratbane (Oct 4, 2009)

Wulf Ratbane said:


> It completely hoses them.
> 
> Lanchester's Square Law is no minor thing, and removing a BBEG from the safety of his minions so that you can dogpile him later (yes, even if just a round later...) is a Big Deal.
> 
> That said-- there's other ways to majorly hose a BBEG with 8th level spells (and lower).






Nifft said:


> 8th level spells ought to be a Big Deal. If they're not, why bother having them in the game?
> 
> That said, this effect isn't a new thing at all -- from _entangle_ to _wall of ice_ to _resilient sphere_, opposition-splitting effects have been around for many, many levels before 8th.




Good to know we're apparently on exactly the same page.


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## Vegepygmy (Oct 4, 2009)

ashockney said:


> Any spell in which the DM is FORCED to change their encounters to fit the new, expansive powers, something isn't right.



Boo friggin' hoo.


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## Nifft (Oct 5, 2009)

Wulf Ratbane said:


> Good to know we're apparently on exactly the same page.



 If the page we're on is: it's as good as certain 1st through 4th level spells, then sure.

But that seems rather different from "completely hoses".

Cheers, -- N


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## Wulf Ratbane (Oct 5, 2009)

Nifft said:


> If the page we're on is: it's as good as certain 1st through 4th level spells, then sure.
> 
> But that seems rather different from "completely hoses".
> 
> Cheers, -- N



_
Hideous laughter_ has completely hosed many a low-level BBEG.


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## Nifft (Oct 5, 2009)

Wulf Ratbane said:


> _
> Hideous laughter_ has completely hosed many a low-level BBEG.



 Cool, we are on the same page.

Cheers, -- N


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## Wulf Ratbane (Oct 5, 2009)

Nifft said:


> Cool, we are on the same page.
> 
> Cheers, -- N




Yes, but I am curious what your 1st level hoser is. _Sleep_?

I don't really count _entangle_, as it equally hoses the party.

(I was looking at my 1e books over the weekend, and marvelling that the 1e _levitate _could be used on an unwilling target. Ogre with greatclub, you wait _up there_ for a while until we are done with these goblins... I actually kinda like it. Why should _hideous laughter_ be the only hoser? Why indeed have only one hoser per spell level?)


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## Nifft (Oct 5, 2009)

Wulf Ratbane said:


> Yes, but I am curious what your 1st level hoser is. _Sleep_?
> 
> I don't really count _entangle_, as it equally hoses the party.
> 
> (I was looking at my 1e books over the weekend, and marvelling that the 1e _levitate _could be used on an unwilling target. Ogre with greatclub, you wait _up there_ for a while until we are done with these goblins... I actually kinda like it. Why should _hideous laughter_ be the only hoser? Why indeed have only one hoser per spell level?)



 If you disregard _entangle_, then the main offender would be _grease_: the Dex check can hose a single non-flying foe significantly, and that's before you consider stairs, ropes, bridges, and the like.

Cheers, -- N


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## Votan (Oct 5, 2009)

Nifft said:


> If you disregard _entangle_, then the main offender would be _grease_: the Dex check can hose a single non-flying foe significantly, and that's before you consider stairs, ropes, bridges, and the like.
> 
> Cheers, -- N




Skills do not scale with level and so it is amazing how many critters can fail a DC 10 balance check!  I'm thinking enemy clerics, especially, who rarely have good dexterity scores, wear heavy armor and for whom Balance is never going to be a class skill.


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## Nifft (Oct 5, 2009)

Votan said:


> Skills do not scale with level and so it is amazing how many critters can fail a DC 10 balance check!  I'm thinking enemy clerics, especially, who rarely have good dexterity scores, wear heavy armor and for whom Balance is never going to be a class skill.



 Exactly.

Consider the Iron Golem, for example. It has a net -1 on the DC 10 Balance check.

Cheers, -- N


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## Runestar (Oct 5, 2009)

Nifft said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Consider the Iron Golem, for example. It has a net -1 on the DC 10 Balance check.
> 
> Cheers, -- N




That, and the glaring lack of monsters in the MM which actually have ranks in balance...

Sleep has one drawback, which is its 1 round casting time - this typically gives the enemy 1 opportunity at disrupting you.



> yet another step further and stipulate that the creature so banished doesn't _have _to try to find his way out immediately.




Isn't there the option that the creature can opt to do nothing, in which case the spell would expire after 10 minutes?


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## Wulf Ratbane (Oct 5, 2009)

Votan said:


> *Skills do not scale with level* and so it is amazing how many critters can fail a DC 10 balance check!




Now _that_, on the other hand, I can definitively say that we're addressing with Trailblazer...


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## Votan (Oct 5, 2009)

Wulf Ratbane said:


> Now _that_, on the other hand, I can definitively say that we're addressing with Trailblazer...




Yeah, that is a good idea.  It was part of the Star Wars Saga Edition that I really liked.  Adventurers automatically scale with other types of competences (saves, attacks) but the skill gap remains forever . . .


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## Rabulias (Oct 6, 2009)

Interesting Historic Trivia Dept: In 1st Edition AD&D, Illusionists got Maze as a 5th level spell (castable by 10th level Illusionists).


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## Tim Ball (Dec 11, 2017)

If you're worried about Maze on the BBG, one solution I found was to have them use Dimensional Anchor on themself. Sure, it cuts their ability to flee, but it also prevents Plane Shift and Maze shenanigans.


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## Piratecat (Dec 12, 2017)

Ha, here's what Google gets us! An excellent point, 8 years late.


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## Tim Ball (Dec 12, 2017)

Yeah I knew it was necro, but I figured if I found this thread...


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