# The Shadar-kai are NEVER going to be the next drow



## JoeGKushner (Apr 12, 2008)

I remember reading an ecology of article on these guys and thinking, "Where did they come from."

I've seen 'em used a few more times.

Does it seem like WoTC is trying to make the next "great" enemy race? The next gith? The next drow?

Give it up. If the GMs and players haven't taken 'em up already, it's too late.

Opinions?


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## Darrin Drader (Apr 12, 2008)

Shadar-Kai? Is this some invention from Monster Manual IV and V? I'm completely unfamiliar with them.

I do think its worthwhile for them to try to invest something in giving us some new notorious badasses to play around with. Since 2003, I've become a kaorti fanboy myself. There's plenty of room for new enemy races, so I say go for it.


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## RangerWickett (Apr 12, 2008)

They need to be in an adventure. If the adventure is cool enough, they'll become popular.


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## ivocaliban (Apr 12, 2008)

Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> Shadar-Kai? Is this some invention from Monster Manual IV and V? I'm completely unfamiliar with them.
> 
> I do think its worthwhile for them to try to invest something in giving us some new notorious badasses to play around with. Since 2003, I've become a kaorti fanboy myself. There's plenty of room for new enemy races, so I say go for it.




Actually, the Shadar-Kai are from the _Fiend Folio_. Which, if I'm not mistaken, is the same book in which the Kaorti appear.


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## the Jester (Apr 12, 2008)

Yup, Fiend Folio it is.

The shadar-kai are actually really cool. The way they taken negative levels if they go dazed, unconscious, etc. makes for some really creepy flavor if you play it up, imho. Suddenly, color spray is lethal!


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## hong (Apr 12, 2008)

The shadar-kai are too emo for Joe.


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## Darrin Drader (Apr 12, 2008)

ivocaliban said:
			
		

> Actually, the Shadar-Kai are from the _Fiend Folio_. Which, if I'm not mistaken, is the same book in which the Kaorti appear.




D'oh!  

OK, I looked them up and I have to agree with Joe. They're not the worst thing I've ever seen, but they would have to come up with some seriously cool setting specific stuff to make them a worthwhile uber-villain.


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## Ogrork the Mighty (Apr 12, 2008)

I'm with the OP. Give it up already. I don't want to be force-fed the shadar-kai. They're not cool in my books.


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## Shemeska (Apr 12, 2008)

Taking a race that players and DMs find cool and evocative and giving us more of them is cool (something that should have happened with the absolutely awesome Ethergaunts - also from the 3e FF).

But with the shadar-kai I really get the sense that it was declared that they would be the next evil thing to link in with the implied flavor packaged along with 4e's design, and by promoting them heavily they would become what had already been decided was to be the case in 4e. It seems a bit heavy handed.


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Apr 12, 2008)

WotC talked about designing races with "traction" before. They did it with the drow, a bit less successfully with the githyanki... and it looks to me the shadar-kai aren't going to pull it off.


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## amethal (Apr 12, 2008)

The Shadar-Kai always remind of that bit in "Once more with Feeling" (Buffy the Vampire the Slayer) when the demon says "Gosh, that's gloomy".

Gloomy isn't fun.


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## Relique du Madde (Apr 12, 2008)

I want to play a duel wielding, Shadar-Kai ninja monk assassin pirate!


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 12, 2008)

They have some nice ingredients...

I'm currently taking some of my favorite Shadar-Ki  & Drow elements to design a new race of Fey for my next homebrew campaign.


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## Kwalish Kid (Apr 12, 2008)

Wow, I love how WOTC is doing such a good job of force-feeding these guys that most of the people complaining about the race are saying things that are just plain contradictory to the meagre information on the race that has so far been made available.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 12, 2008)

Meager?  They were not only in the FF,  but also had an article devoted to them in Dragon Magazine some time ago.

Less than Drow, more than Flumpfh.


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## Nifft (Apr 13, 2008)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> But with the shadar-kai I really get the sense that it was declared that they would be the next evil thing



 Yeah, and that seldom works.

Anyone remember Desmondu? :\

Cheers, -- N


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## Derro (Apr 13, 2008)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> Taking a race that players and DMs find cool and evocative and giving us more of them is cool (something that should have happened with the absolutely awesome *Ethergaunts* - also from the 3e FF).




Oh, so totally. 

The ethergaunts are so creepy. I've had one floating around in the background of a few of my games. The PCs have yet to run across any of these guys yet cuz they are way above the power level of most of the games I've run. Even the grunts come in at a meaty CR9 and I wouldn't want the encounter to be anything less than spectacular which would mean making it with at least two of 'em. 

I'll come up with something but it's going to be a long time before my players are able to face the ethergaunt city filled with mind-wiped human cattle. Those blacks are just too horrible.

Re the shadar-kai:

I was really surprised when they showed up in a 4e preview product. I guess they must have some link to the feywild which it looks like WotC is pushing as the new Underdark. They seem awfully contrived to me. Maybe I'm a traditionalist but I like my evil fey to plain old vanilla Unseelie court types.


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## Darrin Drader (Apr 13, 2008)

Yeah, Ethergaunts aren't bad at all. Very alien, which is cool.


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## InVinoVeritas (Apr 13, 2008)

Shadar-Kai? Ethergaunts? 

Who?

The trick to how the drow and githyanki were cool had nothing to do with forcefeeding. It had everything to do with the awesome art in the original Fiend Folio.

Make something look and seem awesome, and everyone will come. Why is Lord Soth so cool? Is it because of what he does? No. It's because he's a blackened buckethead with glowing red eyes, kind of a fantasy Darth Vader. 

If we want more shadar-kai, we'll demand it, like we did with githyanki and drow. You can't make us want it.

Remember the marketing lesson: design to your customer's needs, then tell them about it. Don't make something, then tell your customers you need it. That's the difference between an iPod and a Zune.


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## Dire Bare (Apr 13, 2008)

Force-feeding?  Really?

So now some of us cranky gamers are up in arms on articles in Dragon giving more information on existing creatures, specifically the Shadar-kai.

Sheesh.  If you don't care for the gloomy fey, that's fine.  Don't use them.  But why crap on the efforts of the designers?  Are they really _forcing_ the shady guys on you?

More than a few posters in this thread are convinced nobody likes the Shadar-kai outside of some designers at WotC.  Where do you get that info from?  The vast and comprehensive consumer polls you've run?  Or is it really just some squeaky wheels squeaking as they always do about something, _anything_, just so they have something to complain about?

I'm overreacting myself here more than a bit, but I just get so tired of all the pointless negativity that pervades nerdland.

Personally, I love the Shadar-kai and plan to use them.  Am I alone?  Somehow, I doubt it.  But if WotC decides tomorrow to drop the Shadar-kai and run an article on some beastie I don't particularly care for, I won't be put out.  I won't claim WotC is _forcing_ the unliked beastie on me and all my fellow gamers.  I'll just chalk it up to differing tastes and continue happily playing D&D and continuing to patronize WotC products.   Baaahhh!  I'm such a sheeple!


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## Umbran (Apr 13, 2008)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> I remember reading an ecology of article on these guys and thinking, "Where did they come from."
> 
> I've seen 'em used a few more times.
> 
> Does it seem like WoTC is trying to make the next "great" enemy race? The next gith? The next drow?




Well, let me ask you a question first - one article and "used a few more times" is enough exposture to think of it as a full-fledged force-feeding campaign?  To me, that sounds like an unsupported jump.  I mean, I hang out here all the time, and I don't know anything about these guys.

How force-fed can they be if people active on a major site devoted to the game haven't heard of them?


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## Masquerade (Apr 13, 2008)

Dire Bare said:
			
		

> Personally, I love the Shadar-kai and plan to use them.  Am I alone?



You're not alone! I was about to post the same thing.

Admittedly, I've never used Shadar-kai in my 3e/3.5 games, but I already have big plans for them in 4e.


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## Set (Apr 13, 2008)

I'd like to see more of those mirror people, the Nerra?  Those sounded cool.


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## mhensley (Apr 13, 2008)

They are definitely somebody's pet project.  I can't stand them.


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## JoeGKushner (Apr 13, 2008)

Umbran said:
			
		

> Well, let me ask you a question first - one article and "used a few more times" is enough exposture to think of it as a full-fledged force-feeding campaign?




Not at all. Never once in my OP did I say that. 



			
				Umbran said:
			
		

> To me, that sounds like an unsupported jump.  I mean, I hang out here all the time, and I don't know anything about these guys.
> 
> How force-fed can they be if people active on a major site devoted to the game haven't heard of them?




And yet, there are free articles about them on the WoTC site so how active are you in the game? They've been printed in Fiend Folio and Ecologies and the reprint in the paperback book ecologies.

To me, it's a waste.

When WoTC is saying, "No Frost Giant or these dragons in the 4e MM because there is no room" and at the same time publishes stuff about some third rate drow and apparently have plans for them in 4e... well, it just seems like bad marketing to me.

Mind you I don't think they stink.

But in order to make them useful, as well as things like the Ethergaunt and other neat races from the Fiend Folio, they have to do something in some type of mega adventure that is good and is looked at as a shared experience much like the old drow adventurers were. They need novels and other support. Some game talk isn't going to do it. They need "faces".


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## Kunimatyu (Apr 13, 2008)

I think Shadar-Kai got picked because WotC needed to flesh out the Plane of Shadow, er, Shadowfell since it's now much more important -- witness borderline monsters like Shadow Mastiffs sticking around in the core MM.

I don't totally hate the S-Kai, but if you want malice drained of emotion, you go to the yugoloths, who would have been perfect fiends of the Shadowfell. Instead of getting petitioners/larva, they could capture the shades of mortals lingering on the plane to use for unspeakably awful things.


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## Erik Mona (Apr 13, 2008)

I can't recall if Chris Thomasson or Jesse Decker came up with the Shadar-Kai, but it was definitely part of the big "gith candidate" design goal that wove through the Fiend Folio assignments. Each of us designed a monster that, like drow and gith, had a couple of different incarnations and that would potentially be cool enough to stand the test of time. As someone above said, this obviously has something to do with art, so it wasn't a pure design challenge.

Mine was the ethergaunt, which since it was mentioned twice already in this thread means it has now been discussed online a total of seven times. I'm not sure I succeeded in the challenge, is what I'm saying, but it's nice to see the mention.

Unsurprisingly, James Jacobs had the best and most enduring entry with the kaorti.

I wrote a blog entry about this three years ago. You guys might find it interesting.

--Erik Mona


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## Fallen Seraph (Apr 13, 2008)

I personally think the Shadar-Kai could become a very interesting major-power in D&D, just gonna quote what I said about them from the 4e Forum:



> I think the Shadar-Kai could be taken in a very-interesting light if you wish too focus less on the masochistic tendencies and more on the sensationalist tendencies.
> 
> The reason they explore new manners of pain is too keep their minds grounded in reality so that they do not "die" by becoming distanced from what is real and essentially becoming another being of the Shadowfell.
> 
> ...


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## Umbran (Apr 13, 2008)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> And yet, there are free articles about them on the WoTC site so how active are you in the game?




Ah, so now anyone who doesn't spend lots of time reading a specific site is now not active in the game?  If gamers number in the millions, and the website-readers are in the thousands or tens of thousands, I think you'll find that idea pretty unsupportable.  

My point is kind of the opposite of yours - you say that unless they have major novels and such, they cannot turn them into the next drow.  I'm saying that unless they have novels and adventures and stuff they clearly _aren't trying to make them_ the next drow - there is no clear attempt to make them ubiquitous.

The exposure is the evidence of the effort, not a prerequisite to start the effort.  



> They've been printed in Fiend Folio and Ecologies and the reprint in the paperback book ecologies.




Well, every monster has a listing in some book or other - and the Fiend Folio is now, what, four years old?  If this is all they have in four years, I can hardly think WotC is trying to do anything much with them at all.  They may have had that in mind back with the original writing of the book, but it sure doesn't sound like they followed up with it much.


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## Graf (Apr 13, 2008)

See mona's post above.


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## Shemeska (Apr 13, 2008)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> Mine was the ethergaunt, which since it was mentioned twice already in this thread means it has now been discussed online a total of seven times. I'm not sure I succeeded in the challenge, is what I'm saying, but it's nice to see the mention.




Mechalich fell head over heels for them and wrote that wicked article on them which he posted in a few places. More than 7 people liked them, you might just be looking in too few places for praise on those critters of yours.


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## Shemeska (Apr 13, 2008)

Kunimatyu said:
			
		

> I don't totally hate the S-Kai, but if you want malice drained of emotion, you go to the yugoloths, who would have been perfect fiends of the Shadowfell. Instead of getting petitioners/larva, they could capture the shades of mortals lingering on the plane to use for unspeakably awful things.




That's what I would have done with 'loths in 4e, fiends of the Shadowfell. Either that or had them as wandering fiends with no (known) native plane, potentially not knowing their own origins, or being bitter exiles from another reality altogether, spreading a gospel of blind misery in the wake of their poisoned smiles.

But alas, gone are the fiends of malice drained of emotion in 4e. Now we've got "soldier demons".  :\


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## Kishin (Apr 13, 2008)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> But in order to make them useful, as well as things like the Ethergaunt and other neat races from the Fiend Folio, they have to do something in some type of mega adventure that is good and is looked at as a shared experience much like the old drow adventurers were. They need novels and other support. Some game talk isn't going to do it. They need "faces".




I don't agree. While adventures certainly can catapult something into a limelight, I think elucidating on an intriguing concept can snare its fair share. The Shadar-kai (And the Kaorti and the Ethergaunt, IMO, have more interesting fluff to them in 3E (and 4E, from what we've seen of the Shadar-kai) than the Drow, who I find little more than prissy annoyances and a terribly weak example of an 'evil' society. Basically, the obsessive fanboism surrounded them has inflated them far beyond their stature: The drow are one of the most supremely overrated villian groups in fantasy.

Rant aside, I agree with Umbran. While they seem to like the concept and want to revisit it, I hardly see this as a full on marketing blitz. Maybe they just want to talk about something new for a change? I'm pretty sick of drow, myself. (Though I'd like order several more servings of Githyanki/zerai, if anyone's in the kitchen). I don' think they'll ever get novels, either: Not when so many more books can be sold namedropping Drow or another D&D standard.

EDIT: Would also enjoy more yugoloths. Please facilitate this.


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## TarionzCousin (Apr 13, 2008)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> I wrote a blog entry about this three years ago. You guys might find it interesting.



I did find it fascinating. Thanks for the link.

Personally, I'm glad that WotC is trying to create another race of monsters with as much "sticking power" as the Drow have shown. What's wrong with them trying to create cool and useful monsters? Yes, they are trying to sell them to us, but that's the nature of the beast... so to speak.


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## Darrin Drader (Apr 13, 2008)

TarionzCousin said:
			
		

> What's wrong with them trying to create cool and useful monsters? Yes, they are trying to sell them to us, but that's the nature of the beast... so to speak.




Absolutely nothing. However, in determining which monsters to choose to populate settings and drop into adventures, they really should look to see what the fans are interested in. Cool monsters tend to rise to the surface because people demand to see them again. Uncool monsters are usually just forgotten. Now a Dragon article about a race happened because somebody thought that the race was interesting enough to do an article on them and made a pitch, which was accepted (assuming that this isn't one of those articles that originated from within Wizards and I haven't checked who the author is). 

So yes, this is fundamentally a good thing. What isn't cool is when D&D starts getting overly polluted by a few monsters that one guy thinks are cool and everybody else hates because that one guy happens to work in WotC R&D. I don't think this is that situation. I just don't see the great appeal of the Shadar-Kai.


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## hong (Apr 13, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Yeah, and that seldom works.
> 
> Anyone remember Desmondu? :\
> 
> Cheers, -- N



 He was the best part of the D&D movie!


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## Evilhalfling (Apr 13, 2008)

well Ive used Kaorti, Ethergaunts and Shari-kar 

The etherguants got the least playing time, not sure if the players even saw them.
they had created a trap that would suck a single player into the ethereal realm, the players   identified that it was a trap and avoided the bait. 
I think their biggest problem is that they are too powerful, not a lot of ability to scale them.  


The Shadri-kar were allies, from the plane of shadow, which fit really well in my homebrew. 
The best was an NPC who was helping the PC elven druid, although the other elves acted incredibly bigoted and warned her against the S-K again and again.  he was appointed was home sitter, and he did a fair job of it.  Although she managed to avoid the more obvious problems, he eventually opened a hole into the shadow realm, in the middle of her grove. Mostly by refusing to believe what he was doing was wrong. 
Not a bad sub-plot. 

the Kaorti were the BBEGs of an entire campaign, seducing the PCs mentor into their ranks, and eventually only defeated by trapping the chairman underground for 1000 years, and creating a cyst destroying explosion, that left a 100' deep smoking crater.  I think they managed to kill at least 2 PCs and a romantic interest.  One PC was almost converted as well. 
They win - hands down.


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## Derro (Apr 13, 2008)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> I wrote a blog entry about this three years ago. You guys might find it interesting.




Thanks Erik. That was quite interesting. 

The yellow musk creeper is near and dear to me. In my early days of gaming it was central to an encounter that has stuck with me. It was the first time I ever felt real fear in a game and the creeper has been a staple for me ever since.

The original Fiend Folio always felt different than the other books. I still have two copies. The art was somehow grittier and more fantastic than the Monster Manual. With the exception of the flumph and the chaotic good tendencies of the booka and killmoulis there were no good creatures. And most of the creatures were weird, dangerous, and sometimes incredibly outlandish.

I don't know that I've ever used a Frostman or an Elemental Prince of Evil but I know I've used Dire Corbies (against my friend Corby no less) and Jermlaine and Tabaxi and Kenku and whatever the hell else.

I think your ethergaunt fits in with the original feeling of the Fiend Folio. Their alien physiognomy, overly mindful agenda of extermination, and psychogenic technology paints a memorable villain. I've always thought Doubt Bomb would be a great name for a band.

My only problem has been that they are too powerful for the usual levels I run my games at. But that's not really a fault.


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## Soel (Apr 13, 2008)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> Mine was the ethergaunt, which since it was mentioned twice already in this thread means it has now been discussed online a total of seven times. I'm not sure I succeeded in the challenge, is what I'm saying, but it's nice to see the mention.




Ethers are my favorite critter out of the FF. Haven't got to use them, as of yet, though a concept of one as a psychic far realms warlock has been kicking around my head for some time.

Still can't forgive you for the Century Worm...It's just dirty....


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## Graf (Apr 13, 2008)

It's interesting, at least to me, to see where shadar kai and co. differ from the gith. 

As EM pointed out: the gith were connected to an earlier monster, the mind flayer, and came as a set with another related and cool monster the githzerai. 
But the gith attempts were completely disconnected from each other and existing monsters. 
If ethergaunts and koatri were fighting for dominance in days of yore and one's return had summoned the other it would have raised the profile of both. 

Also the 3e FF was a terrible book to do it in. Unlike oDnD 3e had vast hordes of monster books with "weird stuff" AND it was a stuck-in-the-middle transition book between 3.0 and 3.5.


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## Mark Chance (Apr 13, 2008)

Umbran said:
			
		

> How force-fed can they be if people active on a major site devoted to the game haven't heard of them?




Good points, Umbran. I've not only never heard of the shadar-kai, I don't even know about this "major site devoted to the game" you mentioned. Maybe I'm just way too obtuse.


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## hong (Apr 13, 2008)

Mark Chance said:
			
		

> Good points, Umbran. I've not only never heard of the shadar-kai, I don't even know about this "major site devoted to the game" you mentioned.




http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd


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## Shroomy (Apr 13, 2008)

I'm not completely sure that the 4e and 3e shadar-kai are exactly the same creature anymore.  For instance, the 4e shadar-kai is no longer a fey creature.


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## Zaukrie (Apr 13, 2008)

Kaorti would be my top choice as best, most interesting new villains from that version of the book. I've always liked the Far Realms. I think the more I read, the more I like.

The Ethergaunt and ShadarKai are about equal in my mind. They play very different roles (in my head, no campaign right now), but are both interesting. I can see how to use both of them.

Erik, yes, James beat you on this one, but you aren't that far behind. We just need a few well done 'gaunt minis and a good adventure, and you'll pass him (unitl they do a Kaorti mini and adventure, but how do you make a Kaorti mini look all that interesting?).

One advantage the Kaorti have is all the related monsters, that aren't Kaorti themselves (unlike the "related" creatures also being 'gaunts).


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## hamishspence (Apr 13, 2008)

*Shadar kai as shades*

the new version of the shadar kai soulds a lot like Faerun's Shades, rulers of the Shadovar people. If this is indeed the way they will go, will it give them traction? shades have appeared in multiple novels and adventurers, and are the star villains of the last big FR adventurer, wheras i've never read a shadar-kai novel. Or, maybe, they are a darker, creepier version of the illumians, who also have a big base in the Plane of Shadow.


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## The Eternal GM (Apr 13, 2008)

Kaorti stood out to me, as did the Ethergaunts.  The E.G's suffered only because they existed as a big threat even in their level band, but the fluff and concept was top-notch.  The Kaorti were pretty good, though tier pet creatures less so.

Shadar-Kai...  Nah, no traction for our group really.  They've been bypassed for enemies a handful of times and skipped as monster player characters too.  They aren't bad...  but not stand out either, there's just something missing from them (y'know, aside from a better name obviously...)


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## jodyjohnson (Apr 13, 2008)

What the Shadar-kai need is uber gear so players want to fight them more.

Drow and Githyanki were always great to fight because when you killed them you got some very good gear (even if it decayed or earned the vengeance of the githyanki empire).

At least at our table it was always about the loot and not the fluff.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 13, 2008)

jodyjohnson said:
			
		

> What the Shadar-kai need is uber gear so players want to fight them more.
> 
> Drow and Githyanki were always great to fight because when you killed them you got some very good gear (even if it decayed or earned the vengeance of the githyanki empire).
> 
> At least at our table it was always about the loot and not the fluff.



Five words: racial proficiency with spiked chains.

Demiurge out.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 13, 2008)

I don't know if the Shadar-kai will be the "New Drow" yet. I really hope not. Drows became a bit tiresome and ridiculous after several attempts to attack the surface world, always defeated by groups of 4-6 adventurers with a knack for violence. And a chaotic evil society where everyone kills everyone else just because he shows signs of incompetence? That's like a mix of everything that was stupid about Darth Vader (Episode IV-VI) and the Klingon culture.

Ask me again whether the Shadar-Kai are the "new Drow" after they third adventure where the PCs have to stop them conquering the world or important nation. 

If they remain in the Shadowfell, only leaving it to hunt down some magical items or, don't know, collect some souls for the Raven Queen, and are not one-sided, clichéd villains but also reluctant allies from time to time, they might actually have a chance.

Off course, I have no idea what the Kaorti or the Ethergaunt are, so maybe these are way cooler.


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## Derro (Apr 13, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Five words: racial proficiency with spiked chains.




Nothing says cheese like *racial proficiency* in a cheesey weapon. Why not just give them mercurial greatswords and be done with it.

I think that, to me, the shadar-kai just smacks of trying too hard. Anyway, I'm done complaining. I'm gonna start a thread about monsters I like.


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## Stoat (Apr 13, 2008)

I like the Shadar-Kai and have used 'em in my 3.5 games.  I generally picture them as angsty, obsessed with morbid art, and spiteful.  The one quotes a lot of Baudelaire when he talks.  The other sounds like Sylvia Plath.

I think the WotC article highlights a good way to portray them--violent, irritatingly  goth/emo, and just morally ambiguous enough to make them acceptable allies of convenience.  



			
				JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> But in order to make them useful, as well as things like the Ethergaunt and other neat races from the Fiend Folio, they have to do something in some type of mega adventure that is good and is looked at as a shared experience much like the old drow adventurers were. They need novels and other support. Some game talk isn't going to do it. They need "faces".




And this, of course, will prompt some to lament that WotC is "force feeding" us the Shadar-Kai."


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## Woas (Apr 13, 2008)

If they want to get anywhere, they need a new name. Shadar-kai is so "bad" fantasy. I think the only thing worse is if there was an apostrophe in there.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 13, 2008)

Woas said:
			
		

> If they want to get anywhere, they need a new name. Shadar-kai is so "bad" fantasy. I think the only thing worse is if there was an apostrophe in there.



Come up with a good compound word for the them, and they will be 100 % fit for 4E. 

Maybe... Gloompeople? Shadowmen? Gothchick? Fellpeople? Ravenman? 
Or how about something German-derivated? Dunkelmenschen. Düsterschatten. Nekrophile. Schwarzseher. Nachtmensch. Todesboten. Hadeswesen. Halbtote. 

Mustrum "Bringing bad fantasy names to games nearby since spring 2008!" Ridcully


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## Relique du Madde (Apr 13, 2008)

Stoat said:
			
		

> I like the Shadar-Kai and have used 'em in my 3.5 games.  I generally picture them as angsty, obsessed with morbid art, and spiteful.  The one quotes a lot of Baudelaire when he talks.  The other sounds like Sylvia Plath.




So Shadar-kai are goth and because they are goth they are evil?  Wow, I'd never expect WoTC to take that sort of mindset..




> I think the WotC article highlights a good way to portray them--violent, irritatingly  goth/emo, and just morally ambiguous enough to make them acceptable allies of convenience."




Sorry, but I don't see goth/emo mixing well with violent.  Considering that they wield spiked chains, I'd say "metal" would be the right subcultural reference for their civilization.  That why you don't over use that very trite "woe is me, I'm misunderstood and everyone wants to kill me" cliche that people like to toss onto certain character types and character races.


----------



## Gargazon (Apr 13, 2008)

I don't think it's fair to say WotC is force-feeding us Shadar-Kai by putting one article up on their website and including them in a book. Do you also believe they are force-feeding us the Formorian as we also have an article about them?

I will be using the Shadar-Kai, as I think the art we've seen so far is awesome, as is the fluff behind the race.


----------



## Dire Bare (Apr 13, 2008)

Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> Absolutely nothing. However, in determining which monsters to choose to populate settings and drop into adventures, they really should look to see what the fans are interested in. Cool monsters tend to rise to the surface because people demand to see them again. Uncool monsters are usually just forgotten. Now a Dragon article about a race happened because somebody thought that the race was interesting enough to do an article on them and made a pitch, which was accepted (assuming that this isn't one of those articles that originated from within Wizards and I haven't checked who the author is).
> 
> So yes, this is fundamentally a good thing. What isn't cool is when D&D starts getting overly polluted by a few monsters that one guy thinks are cool and everybody else hates because that one guy happens to work in WotC R&D. I don't think this is that situation. I just don't see the great appeal of the Shadar-Kai.



I'd disagree.  I think the best artists DON'T give the fans what the fans THINK they want.  The best artists, whether game designers, movie-makers, musicians, novelists, or what-have-you, give you something you never knew you wanted, but all of a sudden you MUST have!!!  Of course, this is a hard, hard thing to pull off successfully, and giving the fans what they THINK they want is a whole lot easier.

I'm not saying the Shadar-Kai fit into that category (can't roll sixes all the time), but the original introduction of the Drow certainly did.  Are the Shadar-Kai the new Drow?  I doubt it WotC intends them to be, and I doubt they will become so.  But . . . so what?


----------



## Moon-Lancer (Apr 14, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Yeah, and that seldom works.
> 
> Anyone remember Desmondu? :\
> 
> Cheers, -- N




I do. They failed to inspire me. However their bats make awesome wildshape forms.


----------



## Simplicity (Apr 14, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Yeah, and that seldom works.
> 
> Anyone remember Desmondu? :\
> 
> Cheers, -- N




Oh, I remember.  Sometimes, when I close my eyes, I can still hear them shrieking.
AEEAIAIIEIEIEIAIEEEEEEEE!

http://www.enworld.org/archive/index.php/t-39880.html 

I guess I can get into Emo-kai a little more than batmen with tools like Batman who ride bats, while dressed like Borat in a mankini.


----------



## Monkey Boy (Apr 14, 2008)

Umbran said:
			
		

> Well, let me ask you a question first - one article and "used a few more times" is enough exposture to think of it as a full-fledged force-feeding campaign?  To me, that sounds like an unsupported jump.  I mean, I hang out here all the time, and I don't know anything about these guys.
> 
> How force-fed can they be if people active on a major site devoted to the game haven't heard of them?




*Umbran * - You are over reacting  and targeting the wrong person. If you go through Joe's post he never mentions forcefeeding. The term that seems to be getting people fired up. He mentions WOTC have upped the races exposure with 4e. I get that impression also.

If the Shadar-Kai are in a cool adventure I can see them becoming the next drow.


----------



## S'mon (Apr 14, 2008)

(Psi)SeveredHead said:
			
		

> WotC talked about designing races with "traction" before. They did it with the drow, a bit less successfully with the githyanki... and it looks to me the shadar-kai aren't going to pull it off.




Drow created by E Gary Gygax, Githyanki created by Charles Stross.  WoTC have never created a cool villain race AFAIK.


----------



## Derro (Apr 14, 2008)

S'mon said:
			
		

> Drow created by E Gary Gygax, Githyanki created by Charles Stross.  WoTC have never created a cool villain race AFAIK.




Oh...

I'd duck if I were you.


----------



## S'mon (Apr 14, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> Come up with a good compound word for the them, and they will be 100 % fit for 4E.
> 
> Maybe... Gloompeople? Shadowmen? Gothchick? Fellpeople? Ravenman?
> Or how about something German-derivated? Dunkelmenschen. Düsterschatten. Nekrophile. Schwarzseher. Nachtmensch. Todesboten. Hadeswesen. Halbtote.
> ...




Hmm, yeah - German-derivated is definitely the way to go - I'm already liking them better! 

This all is reminding me of the TV show Lexx: The Dark Zone Stories, a German-Canadian co-production, and the undead goth-emo assassin hero "Kai, Last of the Brunnen-G" (mini-series was great, following series was rubbish).  I think the Germans can pull off Goth-emo a lot better than can Canadians or Americans.


----------



## S'mon (Apr 14, 2008)

Relique du Madde said:
			
		

> So Shadar-kai are goth and because they are goth they are evil?  Wow, I'd never expect WoTC to take that sort of mindset..




Dracula?  Frankenstein's Monster?  Goth's roots are clearly in critters commonly regarded as evil, eg vampires.  Goth plays up the "woe is me, I'm so misunderstood", and real Goths are notably non-violent, but the fictional archetypes certainly are violent.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 14, 2008)

S'mon said:
			
		

> Hmm, yeah - German-derivated is definitely the way to go - I'm already liking them better!



I think none of the names I used would not cause a German reader to cringe a bit. (Or, to avoid double negation: All of the names sound cringe-worthy for Germans.) ) 
But I suppose if I was a native english speaker, a lot of the traditional D&D monster names sounded a bit stupid, too. Mind Flayer? Beholder? 



> This all is reminding me of the TV show Lexx: The Dark Zone Stories, a German-Canadian co-production, and the undead goth-emo assassin hero "Kai, Last of the Brunnen-G" (mini-series was great, following series was rubbish).  I think the Germans can pull off Goth-emo a lot better than can Canadians or Americans.



Ah, the show was fun, in a mindless way, and if you could overlook the annoying parts.  It can probably be best described as "guilty pleasure". You'd never admit it openly to your friends that you didn't just watch the shows accidentally because the TV was still running...


----------



## S'mon (Apr 14, 2008)

Derro said:
			
		

> Oh...
> 
> I'd duck if I were you.




Is there a WoTC-created villain race widely regarded as cool?  Many people like the Tieflings, but they date from 2e Planescape and aren't really villainous.  I can't think of any popular WoTC-era races other than maybe Warforged, again a PC race.


----------



## Darrin Drader (Apr 14, 2008)

S'mon said:
			
		

> Is there a WoTC-created villain race widely regarded as cool?




Well there has been some talk in this thread about the kaorti and the ethergaunt. I think the sarrukh are a pretty awesome villain race too.


----------



## hong (Apr 14, 2008)

Relique du Madde said:
			
		

> So Shadar-kai are goth and because they are goth they are evil?  Wow, I'd never expect WoTC to take that sort of mindset..




He didn't say they were evil. Sylvia Plath isn't evil.

I think.


----------



## WhatGravitas (Apr 14, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> I think none of the names I used would not cause a German reader to cringe a bit. (Or, to avoid double negation: All of the names sound cringe-worthy for Germans.) )
> But I suppose if I was a native english speaker, a lot of the traditional D&D monster names sounded a bit stupid, too. Mind Flayer? Beholder?



Gedankenschinder. Betrachter. Yeah.

Also: Stop doing cringeworthy German names. Some designer could pick them up by accident!

Mit freundlichen Grüßen, LT.



			
				hong said:
			
		

> I think.



Therefore, you...?


----------



## hong (Apr 14, 2008)

"Friendlicker" could, at a stretch, be a nifty name for a sword.


----------



## Derro (Apr 14, 2008)

S'mon said:
			
		

> Is there a WoTC-created villain race widely regarded as cool?  Many people like the Tieflings, but they date from 2e Planescape and aren't really villainous.  I can't think of any popular WoTC-era races other than maybe Warforged, again a PC race.




Well this thread has revealed a few choice picks (kaorti, ethergaunt). 

I'd also say that it is a bit skewed to expect the same response to a recently created (last 7 years) creature to something that has stood the test of time (githyanki,  drow, slaad, what have you).

I think there are some pretty decent WotC creatures. Maybe they haven't been featured in the same manner as the drow (1e D-series modules) or even recently as the githyanki (Lich-queen adventure and gith based campaigns) but there is no reason to issue so broad a statement.

What about...

Maug 
Inevitable
Avolakea
Living Spells
Quori
Blue
The Blood Golem of Hextor
Chuul
nearly any of the Oni from Oriental Adventures

I may have stretched what you have envisioned as villains, and I can't be 100% on all of these being WotC design but I'm pretty sure they are. At this point of the development of the fantasy gaming niche there are so many different creatures out there it's pretty difficult to get as broad a base of fans for any one type. When the only sources of creatures were the Monster Manual, Fiend Folio, and the occasional article in Dragon or Role-gamer or whatever it's a lot easier to say, "That's cool, let's develop that." The consumer was a lot less jaded and the designer was a lot less derivative.

While I don't have any real big love for any of the stuff after MM2 or the recent 4e developments I'm also willing to recognize the stuff that's good even if it won't see a lot of use. The maug warband that alternately allied with and fought against the PCs in my last Planescape campaign were pretty good characters and a damn sight more memorable than any of the drow I've run across in the last 10 years.

But we all know what opinions are like so I'll stop here.


----------



## Derro (Apr 14, 2008)

hong said:
			
		

> He didn't say they were evil. Sylvia Plath isn't evil.
> 
> I think.




Well she did commit suicide. I think that counts as a damning sin, doesn't it.

Probably best not to bring up religion, I remind myself.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 14, 2008)

Lord Tirian said:
			
		

> Gedankenschinder. Betrachter. Yeah.
> 
> Also: Stop doing cringeworthy German names. Some designer could pick them up by accident!



My hope is that they look at my names, and think something like "Dang, that sounded so nifty. But not only is it apparently actually cringe worthy, it's also made up by someone else, and Legal will take weeks just to ensure that that guy doesn't hold any rights to the name. I guess I'll have to do it better!"


----------



## JoeGKushner (Apr 14, 2008)

And part of it may be WoTC dropping adventurers for a while there.

Even with Dungeon, some of these races haven't seen a lot of use. While Ecology of articles are a good place to start, actual use of them as enemies, as well as fiction, can be a great way of exposure.

One of the reasons why I think drow have maintained their popularity is that despite the Drizzt hate, there are several best seller books with him and the race is a failry easy playable one.  This doesn't count the other drow characters we've seen either from RA or from others.

Their initial tie to the game is also strong. Dark Elves and elves. War beyond time. Betryal on a godly scale.

While the Gith haven't had the books and I don't think they're quite as useable as PCs in 3.5, they've featured in several adventurers, have their own campaign arc, and have always been "cool" with a rich history, impressive naming conventions for their various classes/echolons, and have a build in tie with another popular critter, the mind flayer.


----------



## Schmoe (Apr 14, 2008)

It seems to me that Drow are ubiquitous because TSR put out some adventures featuring them which became very successful (not the least because there were very few adventures available at the time).  Subsequent articles in Dragon created quite a bit of positive feedback, leading to more products related to drow, which consistently did well.  The initial exposure to drow was actually pretty significant, considering how few adventures there were at the top level range of D&D at the time.  That exposure then continued to grow as designers received positive feedback.  So to begin with, Drow really were one of the designers' pet projects that was "forced" on the gaming community, but it was only through the repeated affirmations of the community that they became what they are today.

As more and more material has been produced, it requires much more dedication to a particular race to equal that shown to Drow long ago.  A single module or a handful of adventures won't do it, it requires a prominent place in a flagship product.  As far as I know, none, or at least very few, of the new races have received that kind of exposure yet.  Increasing the exposure to Shadar-kai in 4e is simply an attempt to give fans the opportunity to use them and like them.  If the fans don't like them, designers will move on to something else.


----------



## Stoat (Apr 14, 2008)

Relique du Madde said:
			
		

> So Shadar-kai are goth and because they are goth they are evil?




No.  Indeed, if you re-read my post, you'll see that I specifically like that they are "morally ambiguous."  Indeed, the new WotC article states that, "as a people, they aren't evil, but their morals lack a stripe of humanity more decent folk of the world might expect from one another."

IMO, this is superior to the Drow, who are generally portrayed as being so duplicitous and eeevil that only fools would treat with them.  Because the Shadar-Kai aren't inherently evil, PC's are more likely to interact with them non-violently.

I'll also admit that I used the term "goth/emo" in the broadest, most stereotypical manner possible.  Shadar-Kai are pale and gaunt.  They fancy tattoos and piercings.  They wear black leather and have a penchant for chains.  They're morbid, with a connection to shadow, death and gloom.  In my day, those traits were stereotypically "goth."     Those kids today, with their hair and their clothes, use the word "emo" the same way, which is weird to me, 'cause that's not what emo meant when I was coming up.


----------



## Set (Apr 14, 2008)

Derro said:
			
		

> Living Spells




Awesome concept (and my favorite of those you listed) but not really a humanoid race, a la the Githyanki / Drow / Shadow-cows.

Warforged, on the other hand, pretty darn cool, and also possible contenders for the 'new Gith.'

I like Maug, but they are insane.  Someone just decided to see how freaking much stuff they could shove onto a 2 HD critter without getting slapped, I think...  Almost as bad as those 3 HD Slyphs that cast spells as 7th level Sorcerers and can summon 8 HD Air Elementals.  That cheese is so overwhelming I'm holding my nose just thinking about it!

Ironically, Kobolds and Hobgolins seem to be turning into the 'new Drow,' since both races seem to have a massive resurgence in popularity lately.


----------



## Nifft (Apr 14, 2008)

Stoat said:
			
		

> IMO, this is superior to the Drow, who are generally portrayed as being so duplicitous and eeevil that only fools would treat with them.  Because the Shadar-Kai aren't inherently evil, PC's are more likely to interact with them non-violently.



 Yes. The "we are SOOO EEEEEEEVIIIIIL" aspect of Drow society is a serious turn-off for me, and the reason I don't use any of their official society or back-story in my game.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## theskyfullofdust (Apr 14, 2008)

I like the concept of the Shadar-kai, currently using them in my game. And, they're more punk (or metal) than goth or emo, just to make that point clear.

And I am not a fan of drow. They've been over-used, in my opinion. It'd be nice if there was some new 'drow' but do we really need anything like that? With all the monsters and races out there, why get bogged down just with one race, let's play with all of them!


----------



## I'm A Banana (Apr 14, 2008)

> I like the concept of the Shadar-kai, currently using them in my game. And, they're more punk (or metal) than goth or emo, just to make that point clear.




EH?! Shadar-kai aren't _metal_. Metal is thumping bass and blood-soaked flesh and giant axes and gratuitous T&A and hyperviolence.

Shadar-kai are "Blah! I suffer! Blarg!" That's incredibly emo, or at least more '90's Nu Metal (which is rage-based emo for suburban kids, right?). Punk? Seriously?

I'm a bit of a fan of Shadar-kai. I like 'em just fine.

But I do think that someone over on the dev team has some kind of an irrational boner for them. 

I WANT ME SOME ETHERGAUNTS!


----------



## Stoat (Apr 14, 2008)

The Ethergaunts are the bee's knees, but at, what, CR 9 and up?  They're a little to beefy to see regular use from me.


----------



## Relique du Madde (Apr 14, 2008)

hong said:
			
		

> He didn't say they were evil. Sylvia Plath isn't evil.




I know he didn't say that are evil, but the fact is most races which appear in monster manuals which play up the goth/metal (and to some extent emo) stereotype all tend to have evil alignments which I think is BS since it seems like the only WoTC employee might have the guts that tries to even challenge certain pop-cultural tropes which they are incorporating into their fantasy world.


----------



## Fallen Seraph (Apr 14, 2008)

See, I don't see where this "oh, woh is me, for I must suffer so" idea is coming from for the Shadar-Kai.

If that was the case, why would they revel and become debased in their pursuit of masochistic tendencies.

I don't consider it very emo; when after a fighter impales a Shadar-Kai on a spear. The Shadar-Kai begins to laugh and shudder in pleasure as he feels the spear pierce his flesh, this moment of sheer elation at having felt something driving him on to seek more carnage and chaos in war.

In many regards they embody extremely masochistic and sadistic tendencies that have arisen given the fact that it is these sensations that keep them grounded.

Masochistic in that well they seek out each new level of pain to keep them grounded.

Sadistic in that this desire for pain would very-often come about through combat, and thus their wish to harm others.


----------



## Stoat (Apr 14, 2008)

I don't have my books with me (and I can't remember the clever acronym) but I think the "woe is me, I must suffer!" vibe comes from the Fiend Folio writeup.  I think the S&M angle comes more from the recent DDI article.


----------



## Fallen Seraph (Apr 14, 2008)

Which is where the difference lies I think. 

The Shadar-Kai are going a different route in 4e then they had in 3e. So they could begin to appeal to more people then (or not you never know). But they certainly appeal to me and would make good enemies and odd-allies.


----------



## Sparafucile (Apr 14, 2008)

Drow and Gityhyanki have been done, again and again. You know what? I don't care to know anything else about them.  They were fun in high school. . . and it's great to know I can use them again if I need to, gleaning info from 20+ years of exhaustive material on the subjects.

What I DO need/want now are new monsters, new civilizations, new ideas. Shadar-Kai are one of these, so bring 'em on. And if WOTC has any other pet races. . .  it certainly couldn't hurt.

QUESTION: I want to make a brand new race. I envision a primitive reptilian race from the swamps. i think they'd be cool. Any new ideas to share?


----------



## Darrin Drader (Apr 14, 2008)

Sparafucile said:
			
		

> QUESTION: I want to make a brand new race. I envision a primitive reptilian race from the swamps. i think they'd be cool. Any new ideas to share?




Hey, that sounds like something I'm working on - lizard men, which are ruled by lizard kings. They'll be huge, guaranteed.

- Darrin Drader
April 14 1977


----------



## SkidAce (Apr 15, 2008)

Gargazon said:
			
		

> I don't think it's fair to say WotC is force-feeding us Shadar-Kai by putting one article up on their website and including them in a book. Do you also believe they are force-feeding us the Formorian as we also have an article about them?
> 
> I will be using the Shadar-Kai, as I think the art we've seen so far is awesome, as is the fluff behind the race.




Yes, we were force fed the Fomorians.

ALL HAIL OUR MODRON OVERLORDS!


----------



## Sparafucile (Apr 15, 2008)

Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> Hey, that sounds like something I'm working on - lizard men, which are ruled by lizard kings. They'll be huge, guaranteed.
> 
> - Darrin Drader
> April 14 1977




Yeah . . . well you better hurry, because whoever does it first gets to be part of "_D&D Canon_," to be praised and worshipped by grognards across the mulitverse.

Whoever does it second is a poser who deserves nothing but reactionary scorn.

May the best man win!


----------



## Derro (Apr 15, 2008)

Set said:
			
		

> I like Maug, but they are insane.  Someone just decided to see how freaking much stuff they could shove onto a 2 HD critter without getting slapped, I think...  Almost as bad as those 3 HD Slyphs that cast spells as 7th level Sorcerers and can summon 8 HD Air Elementals.  That cheese is so overwhelming I'm holding my nose just thinking about it!




The maug is definitely CRed low. I put them at 4 instead of 3 when I use them. But I don't think they are too overloaded. The thing about them being apparently powerful for their low amount of hit dice is that they're a large construct. The bonus HP alone is a massive boon. Then there's all the construct immunities. I would never give standard maugs any of the grafts. That is strictly something that a leveled character would purchase with wealth.

I don't refute your assertion that they are tough but I don't think it's as bad as the sylph. One thing that I noticed as wrong with the maug is the DC for Pulverize. Unless I'm mistaken It should be 12 (HD/2+1 for Charisma). The FF has it at 18. 

Which is something that you have to do with most of the FF creatures is check the errata and recalculate save DCs. A lot. I know on my old computer I've got an entire file of corrected stats for FF and MM2 monsters. Of course my old comp is so viral if I plugged it in I might die of ebola.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 15, 2008)

Howzabout we crossbreed them with Minotaurs and make them into the *Shadar-Kow?*

Advantages:

1) Never gets lost in the dark...or anywhere else!

2) Forget Racial Weapon familiarity with Spiked Chains- make it Oversized Mauls and Great-Axes

3) All those divine bovine jokes!


----------



## DrunkonDuty (Apr 15, 2008)

Ya know I wondered about the Fiend Folio and why all the races in there that had a particular style to them. Knowing that the design brief basically said: "give us the new Drow" it all makes sense.

I gotta say I like the Ethergaunts, the Kaorti and the mirror people ones (their name escapes me at the mo.) 

Shadar-Kai didn't do it for me. My first thought on reading their entry was: "More frickin dark-elves. Wonder how long till we have the angst-driven Drizzt equivalent?" Basically I just feel they don't have an original enough feeling to them.


----------



## haakon1 (Apr 15, 2008)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> I can't recall if Chris Thomasson or Jesse Decker came up with the Shadar-Kai




Probably whichever one lives in downtown Seattle -- piercings and tattoos on a fey?  Kinda lame-o early 90s if you ask me.  The male shadow-kai have soul patches, like Apolo Ono, while the fem-shadow-kai have "target tats" on their lower backs and belly-button piercings.


----------



## Shemeska (Apr 15, 2008)

Derro said:
			
		

> I think there are some pretty decent WotC creatures. Maybe they haven't been featured in the same manner as the drow (1e D-series modules) or even recently as the githyanki (Lich-queen adventure and gith based campaigns) but there is no reason to issue so broad a statement.
> 
> What about...
> 
> ...




The Inevitables are directly inspired by the 2e Marut from Planescape (which became on the core Inevitable types in 3e).

3.x Living Spells seem inspired by (but may very well have been created independantly) the 2e Spellhaunts from Planescape as well.

I can't say much on the others in your original listing there since I'm not as versed in their origins, 3e or pre-3e.


----------



## Shemeska (Apr 15, 2008)

haakon1 said:
			
		

> Probably whichever one lives in downtown Seattle -- piercings and tattoos on a fey?  Kinda lame-o early 90s if you ask me.  The male shadow-kai have soul patches, like Apolo Ono, while the fem-shadow-kai have "target tats" on their lower backs and belly-button piercings.




Hey, there's nothing wrong with soul patches and piercings.


----------



## haakon1 (Apr 15, 2008)

Stoat said:
			
		

> I like the Shadar-Kai and have used 'em in my 3.5 games.  I generally picture them as angsty, obsessed with morbid art, and spiteful.  The one quotes a lot of Baudelaire when he talks.  The other sounds like Sylvia Plath.




I'm thinking more the goth episode of South Park.  "Everything sucks."  "Yeah, it totally sucks."


----------



## haakon1 (Apr 15, 2008)

hong said:
			
		

> "Friendlicker" could, at a stretch, be a nifty name for a sword.




How about "Fiendlicker" for a holy, cold burst, demon-slayer sword?


----------



## Derro (Apr 15, 2008)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> The Inevitables are directly inspired by the 2e Marut from Planescape (which became on the core Inevitable types in 3e).
> 
> 3.x Living Spells seem inspired by (but may very well have been created independantly) the 2e Spellhaunts from Planescape as well.




You got me on the Inevitable.

I remember a ghost-spell in Ravenloft that could be a progenitor as well. I just used one to great effect which is probably why it's on my list.


----------



## haakon1 (Apr 15, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> EH?! Shadar-kai aren't _metal_. Metal is thumping bass and blood-soaked flesh and giant axes and gratuitous T&A and hyperviolence.
> 
> Shadar-kai are "Blah! I suffer! Blarg!" That's incredibly emo, or at least more '90's Nu Metal (which is rage-based emo for suburban kids, right?).




Metal is about Vikings killing people with axes.  It's Led Zeppelin and Metalicca.  It's orcs and frost giants and mind flayers and balors.

Nu metal is about mom isn't sensitive enough to my emotion needs.  Shadar-kai and other monster I forgot existed are Nu Metal.

Flumphs are Floyd, man, super trippy and kinda cool in their own bizarre way.  Tear down the Flumph wall, dude . . .


----------



## haakon1 (Apr 15, 2008)

Sparafucile said:
			
		

> QUESTION: I want to make a brand new race. I envision a primitive reptilian race from the swamps. i think they'd be cool. Any new ideas to share?




Lizardmen?  Bullywugs?  Trolls?


----------



## DrunkonDuty (Apr 15, 2008)

> haakon1 wrote:
> Metal is about Vikings killing people with axes. It's Led Zeppelin and Metalicca. It's orcs and frost giants and mind flayers and balors.
> 
> Nu metal is about mom isn't sensitive enough to my emotion needs. Shadar-kai and other monster I forgot existed are Nu Metal.
> ...




OK, so what are New Romantic Synth-pop? 
And how about Blues? Any races out there have the blues? (and I've already considered Blues and disregarded them on account of them being rubbish.)


----------



## haakon1 (Apr 15, 2008)

DrunkonDuty said:
			
		

> OK, so what are New Romantic Synth-pop?
> And how about Blues? Any races out there have the blues? (and I've already considered Blues and disregarded them on account of them being rubbish.)




Mongrelmen got the blues . . . I like mongrelmen.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 15, 2008)

Gnomes have the "My butt got kicked out of the 4Ed PHB blues"

"I woke up the morning
4th Edition got announced
I scanned thru them pages...
My entire race got bounced!

I gots the blues...
Oh' Garl- I gots them blues
We're only in the MM,
With them dragons of different hues."


----------



## DrunkonDuty (Apr 15, 2008)

My father was half-orc,
My ma was a gnolblin,
I'm outcast from the tribes
and ugly as all sin!
I got the Mongrelman blues, 
I got walking away Mongrleman Bloooooos.


Yeah, that works for me.


----------



## Glyfair (Apr 15, 2008)

Dire Bare said:
			
		

> Personally, I love the Shadar-kai and plan to use them.  Am I alone?



I have to admit, I've seen a few discussions where people were begging for Shadar-kai to appear in 3rd party products, even after it was pointed out that it was WotC IP.  They certainly have a cult following (sort of like the gith did in the early days).


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## Fallen Seraph (Apr 15, 2008)

I still don't see Shadar-Kai in 4e as nu metal/emo, it is closer to metal then anything else. They are a race that will laugh and get pumped up and essentially find elation in being in-combat/getting the crap beat out of them.

They would actually make a PERFECT berzerker race, they revel in pain as the main-thing keeping them together and they are masters of combat. Berzerkers are masters of combat and use pain to help energize/enrage them.


----------



## DrunkonDuty (Apr 15, 2008)

These descriptions of the Shadar-kai remind me a bit of the Qullan, also from the original FF. They were freaky, tattooed berserkers who got off on pain and scarification. They also had a permanent Chaos field around them. Me, I'd like to see these guys come back.


----------



## Derro (Apr 15, 2008)

Total freaks.

They had that wicked +3/+3 greatsword that only stayed sharp if they had it. 

The old Dragon magazine that had 1e rules for playing humanoids had a qullan fighting some dwarves on the cover. And they're right next to...

QUAGGOTHS!!!

And how could you say that about Blue? Good enough for OotS, good enough for me.


----------



## DrunkonDuty (Apr 15, 2008)

Oooh, forgot the extra sharp swords.

I once ran a campaign (that died too soon) that had tribes of Quaggoth invading the human lands. What the players never learned (unfortunately) was that the Quaggoth were being driven out of their own lands by invading Qullan. I guess I just had a Q thing going on at the time.


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## DM_Jeff (Apr 15, 2008)

I simply never gave the Shadar-kai much notice until recently. They are featured in the Cormyr: Tearing of the Weave hardcover adventure and I went to research them for that.

Does anyone recall the Issue of Dragon where the Shadar-kai Ecology was written?

-DM Jeff


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 15, 2008)

DrunkonDuty said:
			
		

> Oooh, forgot the extra sharp swords.
> 
> I once ran a campaign (that died too soon) that had tribes of Quaggoth invading the human lands. What the players never learned (unfortunately) was that the Quaggoth were being driven out of their own lands by invading Qullan. I guess I just had a Q thing going on at the time.



Was this your 17th campaign you ever run, and and the next campaign featured R-related monsters? At what point of the alphabet are you now? Did you invent new letters, or are you recycling?


----------



## theskyfullofdust (Apr 15, 2008)

DM_Jeff said:
			
		

> Does anyone recall the Issue of Dragon where the Shadar-kai Ecology was written?
> 
> -DM Jeff




Yes, it's in Dragon mag # 337


----------



## Hussar (Apr 15, 2008)

S'mon said:
			
		

> Drow created by E Gary Gygax, Githyanki ripped off from George RR Martin  by Charles Stross.  WoTC have never created a cool villain race AFAIK.




In the interests of honestly.


----------



## DM_Jeff (Apr 15, 2008)

theskyfullofdust said:
			
		

> Yes, it's in Dragon mag # 337





Thanks a ton!

-DM Jeff


----------



## I'm A Banana (Apr 15, 2008)

> I still don't see Shadar-Kai in 4e as nu metal/emo, it is closer to metal then anything else. They are a race that will laugh and get pumped up and essentially find elation in being in-combat/getting the crap beat out of them.
> 
> They would actually make a PERFECT berzerker race, they revel in pain as the main-thing keeping them together and they are masters of combat. Berzerkers are masters of combat and use pain to help energize/enrage them.




Reveling in your own pain is totally EMO. Metal would be reveling in the pain of those who oppose you, walking on a carpet made of their corpses, in order to make out with the irrationally proportioned blonde wearing the chainmail bikini who is being held captive in the Lust-Palace of the Demon Queen B'thaglu. 

Without the whole "I am of two worlds, I am darkness and light, suffering is what keeps me alive" emo-ness of the Shadar-kai, they come off as S&M style. "Ooooh, baby, stab me so _hard_."

I like classifying the Shadar-Kai as a bit "nu metal" with their suburban rebellion from piercings and their intentse ennui and their parents who don't understand their suffering and their tramp stamps. They are crying out for attention, for meaning, for _someone who understands![/U]

This is coming from a guy with nothing in particular to hate about 'em. I just really like seeing how music has influenced various aspects of D&D.  

Oh, plus the aforementioned "one of the designers has an irrational boner for them." _


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## Darrin Drader (Apr 15, 2008)

I'm beginning to think that maybe the shadar-kai are a major new player, given all of the conversation they have prompted. Just the metal/nu-metal/emo debate is giving them traction.


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## Set (Apr 15, 2008)

DrunkonDuty said:
			
		

> These descriptions of the Shadar-kai remind me a bit of the Qullan, also from the original FF. They were freaky, tattooed berserkers who got off on pain and scarification. They also had a permanent Chaos field around them. Me, I'd like to see these guys come back.




Qullan rocked.  Now they must be converted!


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## Evilhalfling (Apr 15, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> Was this your 17th campaign you ever run, and and the next campaign featured R-related monsters? At what point of the alphabet are you now? Did you invent new letters, or are you recycling?




I once ran a 2nd ed game called the B-quest. 
I thought placing the Baraccuda and the Bulette in an inland forest enviornment for 3rd level characters was particularly tricky. 

I was pelted with food at about the 5th encounter, but the players finished the game.



> In the interests of honesty.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 15, 2008)

Evilhalfling said:
			
		

> I once ran a 2nd ed game called the B-quest.
> I thought placing the Baraccuda and the Bulette in an inland forest enviornment for 3rd level characters was particularly tricky.
> 
> I was pelted with food at about the 5th encounter, but the players finished the game.




I liked the idea of "themed" adventures (though I might actually have run only one: Theme was "Crystals & Spiders", and it was pretty enjoyable), but never considering using the alphabet. 

Maybe the next theme should be the "Count Count" theme. "1 Kobold Minion. 2 Kobold Minions. 3 Kobold Minions." *roaring thunder and lightning* "Hahaha 3! 4 Kobold Minions, 5... Hahaha" *roaring thunder and lighting* "...5 Kobold Minions!"


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## Kesh (Apr 16, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> EH?! Shadar-kai aren't _metal_. Metal is thumping bass and blood-soaked flesh and giant axes and gratuitous T&A and hyperviolence.
> 
> Shadar-kai are "Blah! I suffer! Blarg!" That's incredibly emo, or at least more '90's Nu Metal (which is rage-based emo for suburban kids, right?). Punk? Seriously?




Bah. I think there's a lot of biases throwing this discussion to the wind. I've seen nothing that says "woe is me" in the Shadar-kai, and everything that says, "I suffer for *power*."

I'm surprised no one brought it up before: Shadar-kai are heavily borrowing from The Order of the Gash. They just haven't been able to cross into full-fledged demons yet. And _that_, my friends, is f-in' metal.


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## freyar (Apr 16, 2008)

Set said:
			
		

> Qullan rocked.  Now they must be converted!




Apparently they're in Living Greyhawk Journal #4.  There's also a free 3.0 version right here in the EN World Creature Catalog.


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## Nifft (Apr 16, 2008)

Kesh said:
			
		

> Bah. I think there's a lot of biases throwing this discussion to the wind. I've seen nothing that says "woe is me" in the Shadar-kai, and everything that says, "I suffer for *power*."



 So they're *Blood Elves*?

Cheers, -- N


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## Clavis (Apr 16, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> Reveling in your own pain is totally EMO. Metal would be reveling in the pain of those who oppose you, walking on a carpet made of their corpses, in order to make out with the irrationally proportioned blonde wearing the chainmail bikini who is being held captive in the Lust-Palace of the Demon Queen B'thaglu.




Yes! Bring back the days when D&D was F'ing METAL already! Cue the Manowar albums!


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## Fallen Seraph (Apr 16, 2008)

This conversation reminds me of this joke:

* POWER METAL
The protagonist arrives riding a white unicorn, escapes from the dragon, saves the princess and makes love to her in an enchanted forest.

* THRASH METAL
The protagonist arrives, fights the dragon, saves the princess and s her.

* HEAVY METAL
The protagonist arrives on a Harley, kills the dragon, drinks a few beers and s the princess.

* FOLK METAL
The protagonist arrives with some friends playing acordions, violins, flutes and many more weird instruments, the dragon falls asleep (because of all the dancing). Then they all leave........ without the princess.

* VIKING METAL
The protagonist arrives in a ship, kills the dragon with his mighty axe, skins the dragon and eats it, rapes the princess to death, steals her belongings and burns the castle before leaving.

* DEATH METAL
The protagonist arrives, kills the dragon, s the princess and kills her, then leaves.

* BLACK METAL
The protagonist arrives at midnight, kills the dragon and impales it in front of the castle. Then he sodomizes the princess, drinks her blood in a ritual before killing her. Then he impales the princess next to the dragon.

* GORE METAL
The protagonist arrives, kills the dragon and spreads his guts in front of the castle, s the princess and kills her. Then he s the dead body again, slashes her belly and eats her guts. Then he s the carcass for the third time, burns the corpse and s it for the last time.

* GRIND METAL
The protagonist arrives, screams something completely undecipherable for about 2 minutes and then leaves...

* DOOM METAL
The protagonist arrives, sees the size of the dragon and thinks he could never beat him, then he gets depressed and commits suicide. The dragon eats his body and the princess as dessert. Thats the end of the sad story.

* GOTHIC METAL
The princess in a velvet costume starts singing soprano. The protagonist completes the duet by adding the beast part, while the dragon plays the flute. Suddenly he swallows up the pipe and accidently scorches the beauty and the beast and suffocates to death. All their souls are damned in hell's eternity.

* PROGRESSIVE METAL
The protagonist arrives with a guitar and plays a solo of 26 minutes. The dragon kills himself out of boredom. The protagonist arrives to the princess' bedroom, plays another solo with all the techniques and tunes he learned in the last year of the conservatory. The princess escapes looking for the HEAVY METAL protagonist.

* INDUSTRIAL METAL
The protagonist arrives wearing greasy overcoat, makes obscene gestures towards dragon, and gets escorted out of fairy tale land by security guards.

* SPEED METAL
Suddenly there, short solo, dragon is confused, someone's screaming weird stuff, princess realizes she's been deflowered, dragon and princess are still looking for the one who did this.

* CHRISTIAN METAL
The protagonist rides in on his way home from church and sings a mushy power ballad to the dragon about how much Jesus loves him and that the dragon should turn to Him. The Dragon is immediately converted, and when the princess wants to thank the protagonist he replies, "Sorry, but I don't believe in having sex before marriage."

* GLAM METAL
The protagonist arrives, the dragon laughs at the guy's appearance and lets him enter. He steals the princess' make up and tries to paint the castle in a beautiful pink colour.

* BATTLE METAL
The protagonist arrives with a legion of a hundred brave footmen, war chariots and a dozen elite warriors and, as a master tactician, flanks the dragon in a bloody siege that lasts six hours. The princess gets bored.

* NU METAL
The protagonist arrives in a run down Honda Civic and attempts to fight the dragon but he burns to death when his moronic baggy clothes catch fire.

* EMO
The protagonist sees the dragon and moans about how hard it will be to get the princess to fall in love with him. He gets eaten. The princess is very happy, because he was a whiny dork anyway.

* GRUNGE
The protagonist doesn't get eaten by the dragon because he stinks too much from not washing his hair in months. The princess won't go near him either, and he ends up dying on the town hall steps with the other grungers due to the over consumption of white cider.

* POP-PUNK
The dragon can't eat the protagonist because he can't catch him because he keeps bouncing up and down. The princess won't  him either, because he likes ska.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 16, 2008)

They forgot that in Glam Metal, the Dragon is extra happy since he now has 2 princesses.


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## Contrarian (Apr 16, 2008)

Fallen Seraph said:
			
		

> This conversation reminds me of this joke:




Wow, jokes about rape are _hilarious_. Thanks a bunch for that.


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## Darrin Drader (Apr 16, 2008)

Contrarian said:
			
		

> Wow, jokes about rape are _hilarious_. Thanks a bunch for that.




I actually LOL'd because while totally crass, it really did manage to capture the feel for each of those subgenres. ALTHOUGH! GRUNGE! IS! NOT! METAL!


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## Sol.Dragonheart (Apr 16, 2008)

I have always enjoyed that joke.  Humor does not have to be gentle and polite to be amusing.  


In any case, as far as the original topic goes, the Shadar-Kai are interesting, but I do not believe they, or any race will match the successful races that have filled the role until they are detailed in the same manner.  Use them in several adventures that also provide insights into their culture and general modus operandi, and, given that those two elements are interesting, and clever, the race will naturally reach that apex.  

As an aside, how many times have people used the Githyanki as a central villain in their campaign plots?  From what I've seen, they are generally only used as a side event to the main battle or villain, and are rarely used as the crux of the campaign.


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## Darrin Drader (Apr 16, 2008)

I should point out that I say grunge is not metal because I really do like grunge.


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## HeavenShallBurn (Apr 16, 2008)

Fallen Seraph said:
			
		

> This conversation reminds me of this joke:



Oddly enough I've always equated rpgs and campaigns with music styles.  It just provides a quick handle to encapsulate the overall feel of the game you're trying to convey.

And D&D should aim for the first of these categories most of the time.  But you know it tends to turn into 2 or 3 fairly frequently.


> * HEAVY METAL
> The protagonist arrives on a Harley, kills the dragon, drinks a few beers and s the princess.
> 
> * VIKING METAL
> ...


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## DrunkonDuty (Apr 16, 2008)

> I should point out that I say grunge is not metal because I really do like grunge.




I'd guessed. Only a fan would have that sort of passion.   

So are Orcs metal or grunge?
And I still haven't heard any suggestions for which race(s) may be New Romantic. C'mon, I know there's someone out there who's thought about it.

Rustrum:  No idea why I had a Q thing going on.  It wasn't an alphabet thing (which I will now do sometime. Each adventure in the campaign arc is a letter of the alphabet! Fantastic idea!) It certainly wasn't Trek related. All I can say is, it just was.


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## Derro (Apr 16, 2008)

Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> I should point out that I say grunge is not metal because I really do like grunge.




Actually...

If you have seen the _definitive_ documentary *Metal: A Headbanger's Journey* grunge is considered a sub-genre of metal. There is a flow-chart that shows the development of metal as a genre from it's inception in the '60s by the likes of Iron Butterfly and Cream all the way to the nu-metal and orchestral black metal of today. If you are a fan of any genre of metal from Led Zeppelin to Dimmu Borgir to Ratt I highly recommend this movie.

Even before the production of this movie grunge was largely considered an amalgam of heavy metal, punk rock, and indie rock.

Music is another feather in my geek hat so my apologies if this comes off as anything other than informative.


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## DrunkonDuty (Apr 16, 2008)

Not at all. Music geekism is the best geekism.
Will have to track down the show.


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## Darrin Drader (Apr 16, 2008)

Derro said:
			
		

> Even before the production of this movie grunge was largely considered an amalgam of heavy metal, punk rock, and indie rock.




See, I always saw it as a fusion of punk and indie rock. The reason I exclude metal is because it seems to be the antithesis of what metal had traditionally been. It was not about gravity defying guitar solos, looking pretty, singing pretty, or even making sense half the time. It was very introspective and political, which are two things metal typically is not. I also think there were a number of bands that were considered grunge because of when they emerged or where they emerged from. For example, I would really not consider Radiohead, Pearl Jam, Sound Garden, and Stone Temple Pilots all the same type of music. Pearl Jam definitely had its punk roots, but it sounded more like fuzzier classic rock. Radiohead was just plain mislabeled as we can see today by their status as the modern day Pink Floyd (listening to OK Computer as I type this). I do have to admit that I can see certain metal elements in Soundgarden and Alice in Chains. STP, on the other hand started out sounding like a Pearl Jam knockoff but transformed into something unique and wonderful - not truly grunge, not pop, not metal, but memorable and wonderful (they just reunited by the way - W00t!)

Anyway, rambling here. To get to the heart of what grunge is, I think you have to look at the seminal grunge band, which is Nirvana. I consider them almost pure punk which broke the rules by including melody. But I suppose that since it is so difficult to categorize, it makes some amount of sense for some (including Dave Grohl) to just group it in with metal, even if I don't completely agree with it.


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## Derro (Apr 16, 2008)

Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> Anyway, rambling here. To get to the heart of what grunge is, I think you have to look at the seminal grunge band, which is Nirvana. I consider them almost pure punk which broke the rules by including melody. But I suppose that since it is so difficult to categorize, it makes some amount of sense for some (including Dave Grohl) to just group it in with metal, even if I don't completely agree with it.




I don't want to thread-jack here so if this continues maybe we should do it somewhere else. However I'd like to address that Nirvana statement. I don't think it is entirely accurate to call them *the seminal grunge band*. They are undoubtedly the most successful and recognized band of the grunge genre but they were descended from bands like the Melvins (Cobain's favorite band), Mudhoney, Green River and Motherlovebone (who reformed as Pearl Jam), TAD, and the Screaming Trees. 

All of these bands had a real DIY sensibility inherited from punk but lacked for the most part the sensationalism of both punk and metal and maintained a lower key attitude more in line with indie-rock. Metal was cited as an influence mainly because the music was often as abrasive as metal but with more technical proficiency than punk. And the long hair.    Grunge was as much about attitude as sound. And location. If you were from Seattle, Olympia, or Tacoma you were a grunge band like it or not.  

All in all it is a debatable point at best. Music is music, what it's called just makes it easier to find at the record store.


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## Darrin Drader (Apr 16, 2008)

Derro said:
			
		

> I don't want to thread-jack here so if this continues maybe we should do it somewhere else.




I think its good that here we are, about 13 years after grunge more or less transformed into something else entirely and we're still trying to define it. For a genre that disliked labels and groupings, I think that this is fitting. I am grunge and I believe I always will be though I never had the hair or the tats, and its been a long, long while since I've worn flannel.

I agree that this thread has gotten completely hijacked, so to get it back on track, I'll urge this to be the last post on the subject.


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## S'mon (Apr 16, 2008)

Hussar said:
			
		

> In the interests of honestly.




George RR Martin was publishing in the mid-late '70s?  Githyanki first appeared in White Dwarf magazine around 1978 AIR, before being collated in Fiend Folio years later.


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## Clavis (Apr 16, 2008)

Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> I actually LOL'd because while totally crass, it really did manage to capture the feel for each of those subgenres. ALTHOUGH! GRUNGE! IS! NOT! METAL!




Ok, let's get something straight. There was no such music as "Grunge" before the media needed a label to put on the Seattle metal scene. Before "Smells Like Teen Spirit" broke big on MTV, who know who was listening to Pearl Jam (and before that Mother Love Bone), Soundgarden, Nirvana, etc? Metalheads, especially metalheads who were also expanding their tastes into old punk. Wearing flannel was something metalheads were doing in the late 80s/ early 90s, beacuse it was cheap. Seattle metalheads wore flannel because its f'ing cold in Seattle.

OK, rant's over. It's just that I remember being told how this music I had been listening to, that we all referred to as metal, was suddenly something called "Grunge". I also remember the week that all the metal sl*ts suddenly lost their black LA gears, ripped t-shirts, acid washed jeans and big hair, and all started dressing like lesbian truck drivers.

Oh, and the Shadar-Kai are totally NOT METAL. Ta-da, back on topic!


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## Darrin Drader (Apr 16, 2008)

Clavis said:
			
		

> Ok, let's get something straight. There was no such music as "Grunge" before the media needed a label to put on the Seattle metal scene. Before "Smells Like Teen Spirit" broke big on MTV, who know who was listening to Pearl Jam (and before that Mother Love Bone), Soundgarden, Nirvana, etc? Metalheads, especially metalheads who were also expanding their tastes into old punk. Wearing flannel was something metalheads were doing in the late 80s/ early 90s, beacuse it was cheap. Seattle metalheads wore flannel because its f'ing cold in Seattle.
> 
> OK, rant's over. It's just that I remember being told how this music I had been listening to, that we all referred to as metal, was suddenly something called "Grunge". I also remember the week that all the metal sl*ts suddenly lost their black LA gears, ripped t-shirts, acid washed jeans and big hair, and all started dressing like lesbian truck drivers.




Were you actually live in Seattle? Because when I saw Alice in Chains and Soundgarden in concert back in 1989, neither me or my friends were in any way into metal at the time. In fact, we had a pretty healthy dislike of about 90% of the metal that was popular back then. We lived in Pullman WA, just over the mountains from Seattle, and to us, they fit perfectly in with the college and alternative rock scene which was usually composed of some local bands as well as some that came in from Seattle. As an aside, I actually enjoyed one of our local bands more than Soundgarden when they played here and their guitarist actually went on to play with someone somewhat large, I think Mud Honey - but not positive.

As for the flannel thing, there were a lot of us wearing it before Nirvana broke, not because it was cheap or metal, but because we liked it. Eh, it was a strange time and there were a lot of emerging trends that piggybacked on other things in different areas.

And no, the Shadar-Kai are certainly not metal. Maybe emo, but not metal.


----------



## danzig138 (Apr 16, 2008)

Sol.Dragonheart said:
			
		

> I have always enjoyed that joke.  Humor does not have to be gentle and polite to be amusing.



No, but it should be at least kind of funny, and that wasn't. That was stupid. Stupid _and _ funny can be good; stupid and unfunny isn't. 


And while I'm probably in a minority, I'm still waiting for a cool villain race, because the Drow and Gith aren't. The Gith could be, but the Drow have never been very interesting. Mind Flayers should be, but I think they lack an appropriate volume of material. But I did miss a bunch of 2nd Edition books, so maybe I missed something there. I do remember a pretty cool MF article in Dragon from way back, but I don't know that anything was ever built on that.


----------



## Gryffyn (Apr 16, 2008)

S'mon said:
			
		

> George RR Martin was publishing in the mid-late '70s?




I'm catching this out of context, but his career was indeed active then.  He won a Hugo in 1975.  I'm pretty sure he was gaming back then, too....


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## Clavis (Apr 16, 2008)

Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> Were you actually live in Seattle? Because when I saw Alice in Chains and Soundgarden in concert back in 1989, neither me or my friends were in any way into metal at the time. In fact, we had a pretty healthy dislike of about 90% of the metal that was popular back then. We lived in Pullman WA, just over the mountains from Seattle, and to us, they fit perfectly in with the college and alternative rock scene which was usually composed of some local bands as well as some that came in from Seattle. As an aside, I actually enjoyed one of our local bands more than Soundgarden when they played here and their guitarist actually went on to play with someone somewhat large, I think Mud Honey - but not positive.




No, I was in NJ. Obviously, you know what your own experiences were, and it would be stupid for me to try and argue them. I can only say that around here, those bands were definitely identified as metal bands, and were only listened to by metalheads before '92. Your experience demonstrates, whoever, why they became popular (because they had cross-scene appeal).




			
				Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> As for the flannel thing, there were a lot of us wearing it before Nirvana broke, not because it was cheap or metal, but because we liked it. Eh, it was a strange time and there were a lot of emerging trends that piggybacked on other things in different areas.




That's sure true. Around these parts, though, flannel was also definitely a metal thing before '92, and many metalheads would typically wear a band t-shirt, with a flannel over it, and a leather or denim jacket over that. The other great thing about flannel was it was a thick cloth, and as part of your layers it would give you some more protection while moshing.



			
				Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> And no, the Shadar-Kai are certainly not metal. Maybe emo, but not metal.




On that we are 100% in agreement!


----------



## Clavis (Apr 16, 2008)

danzig138 said:
			
		

> And while I'm probably in a minority, I'm still waiting for a cool villain race, because the Drow and Gith aren't. The Gith could be, but the Drow have never been very interesting.




The thing with the Drow is that they were sexy. I always saw them as essentially a big FemDom BDSM fantasy. I went with it, and just described them as dressed up in bondage gear, and had the females behaving like real-world professional Dominas.


----------



## Tewligan (Apr 16, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Yeah, and that seldom works.
> 
> Anyone remember Desmondu? :\
> 
> Cheers, -- N



Ha! I was going to make that same reference, but I couldn't remember their name. Shows how well _that_ worked out...


----------



## Kesh (Apr 16, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> So they're *Blood Elves*?
> 
> Cheers, -- N



 Yes.

/dance


----------



## Tewligan (Apr 16, 2008)

DrunkonDuty said:
			
		

> These descriptions of the Shadar-kai remind me a bit of the Qullan, also from the original FF. They were freaky, tattooed berserkers who got off on pain and scarification. They also had a permanent Chaos field around them. Me, I'd like to see these guys come back.



If I recall correctly (often a big "if"), the qullan were the creation of our own Plane Sailing.


----------



## Kesh (Apr 16, 2008)

Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> The reason I exclude metal is because it seems to be the antithesis of what metal had traditionally been. It was not about gravity defying guitar solos, looking pretty, singing pretty, or even making sense half the time. It was very introspective and political, which are two things metal typically is not.




That sounds like glam rock, which I never considered metal anyway. Poison and Winger aren't metal, they're what happened when metal went pop. Kinda how Emo is when Goth went pop.


----------



## Voadam (Apr 16, 2008)

danzig138 said:
			
		

> No, but it should be at least kind of funny, and that wasn't. That was stupid. Stupid _and _ funny can be good; stupid and unfunny isn't.
> 
> 
> And while I'm probably in a minority, I'm still waiting for a cool villain race, because the Drow and Gith aren't. The Gith could be, but the Drow have never been very interesting. Mind Flayers should be, but I think they lack an appropriate volume of material. But I did miss a bunch of 2nd Edition books, so maybe I missed something there. I do remember a pretty cool MF article in Dragon from way back, but I don't know that anything was ever built on that.




From 2e

A sourcebook on them:

Illithiad 

And a trilogy of modules based on them:

A Darkness Gathering 

Dawn of the Overmind 

Masters of the Eternal Night 

as well as a few other less prominent appearances


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## LordVyreth (Apr 16, 2008)

I find the idea that the FF was intentionally designed to make the next drow/gith very interesting, especially since that's been my favorite of the MM expansions (though that might just be a balance issue as much as everything.)  If the kaorti won that competition, the Shadar-Kai came in second, and the Ethergaunts were in the middle, what other examples filled up the rest of the book?  The Nerra I heard mention; what else?  If we could come up with a comprehensive list, I would love to see people's rankings of them; especially Eric's!


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## Evilhalfling (Apr 16, 2008)

LordVyreth said:
			
		

> I find the idea that the FF was intentionally designed to make the next drow/gith very interesting,  what other examples filled up the rest of the book?  The Nerra I heard mention; what else?  If we could come up with a comprehensive list, I would love to see people's rankings of them; especially Eric's!




this list is drawn from memory and is short on proper names: 

Sulks 
Anti-magic lizardmen (Magic eaters?) 
Finnish dwarves (w/giant wives) 
3 new formorians 
True neutral shape shifting outsiders (?) 
Nerra - outsiders from the mirror plane 
ethergaunts 
Korti 
newt men (?)
Verrogin (?) abyssal bat-vampire men, 3 types 
Shadar-Kai 
Abyssal ghouls 

At least some were seen before this book
Some worked, some did not, ratio was better than the orginal FF 
Any nominations for the worst concept in the book?


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## Jhaelen (Apr 16, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> So they're *Blood Elves*?



Hmm, I'm not so sure about that. The ritual that turns them into blood elves was originally invented to protect themselves from the influence of the horrors. Only a lot later (well after the Scourge) they started to take pride in their change and started feeling superior to other races. I think the change in their mentality was triggered by the negative reaction of the other races towards their transformation.

The 4E Shadar-Kai immediately reminded me of Clive Barker's Cenobites (Hellraiser...). I think, I liked them better in 3E.


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## Nifft (Apr 16, 2008)

Jhaelen said:
			
		

> Only a lot later (well after the Scourge) they started to take pride in their change and started feeling superior to other races. I think the change in their mentality was triggered by the negative reaction of the other races towards their transformation.



 Erp. That actually does sound "emo" -- as in, they sound annoyingly like teenagers.

:\, -- N


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 16, 2008)

[hijack]For the record...I know some don't call Grunge "Metal," but it really is.  Pretty much all heavy popular music can trace at least some critical influence back to bands like Black Sabbath.

As for blistering arpeggiated solos- those weren't really a feature until the 80's- up until that point, most hard rock was essentially Blues turned up to 11 with distortion and some additional seasoning from around the world.

The 70's shredders like Montrose, Blackmore and Roth were emulated by guys like Van Halen, Malmsteen, Rhoads, Satriani, Lane, Vandenburg, Skolnick and almost anyone you could name in a Glam band in the 80's.

Grunge just took back some of the dirgelike constructions of early metal and gave it a new  lyrical direction, away from mysticism/supernatural evil and into social commentary and the evil man does to himself and his surroundings- never more evident than in Soundgarden's "Into the Void (Sealth)."

For more, check out 
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=194991&page=1&pp=30
[/hijack]


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## Derro (Apr 17, 2008)

Evilhalfling said:
			
		

> Some worked, some did not, ratio was better than the orginal FF
> Any nominations for the worst concept in the book?




I can't say the absolute worst but what is the point of the terror bird? Maybe it's just the stupid name.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Apr 17, 2008)

ivocaliban said:
			
		

> Actually, the Shadar-Kai are from the _Fiend Folio_. Which, if I'm not mistaken, is the same book in which the Kaorti appear.



Well, they're no kaorti or nerra, but honestly, they're not intrinsically any better or worse than the githyanki, who are ridiculously popular, and were even before they appeared in a single module.


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## DrunkonDuty (Apr 17, 2008)

Terror Bird is a dumb name. But I like big raptors, ever since the Axe Beak.

I'd go with the giant magic eating lizardmen as the worst. There was just something about them. They're really good in combat, basically immune to magic. Just too convenient and too tough. They smack of mary-sue. 

I think the Nerra are my favourite, just waiting for the right time to use them.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Apr 17, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> But I do think that someone over on the dev team has some kind of an irrational boner for them.



"Rational Boner" would be a great name for a band.


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## Derro (Apr 17, 2008)

DrunkonDuty said:
			
		

> Terror Bird is a dumb name. But I like big raptors, ever since the Axe Beak.
> 
> I'd go with the giant magic eating lizardmen as the worst. There was just something about them. They're really good in combat, basically immune to magic. Just too convenient and too tough. They smack of mary-sue.
> 
> I think the Nerra are my favourite, just waiting for the right time to use them.




Heh. Axe Beak.

I kinda like the sarkrith. Kinda. I adapted them for a pseudo-Mechwarrior game. Them and the *GARGANTUAN CHUUL*. They are a little contrived though. One of those "f-you spellcaster who's ruining the game" races. My biggest problem is their CR. Even if I wanted to use one it pretty damn rare that I'm running a party that high level. Same with the ethergaunts. 

I've often wished there was a comprehensive way to reverse engineer monsters. Savage Species comes close but it's so much work. Then you could use high CR monsters for lower level parties.

And yeah, the nerra are pretty cool. Weird, but cool.


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## DrunkonDuty (Apr 17, 2008)

If I want to reduce the power of critters I just reduce the numbers. AC20 goes to AC15, that sort of thing. The exact reduction based purely on what I think will work for a given group. I realise my ad hoc approach does not appeal to many folks. I may even be accused of breaking the rules. But I consider them more guidelines to help ensure everyone has fun.

And now, a musical interlude: "Ladies and gentlemen, give it up for Rational Boner and their new hit song 'Hard for Descarte!' "


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## haakon1 (Apr 17, 2008)

Derro said:
			
		

> Grunge was as much about attitude as sound. And location. If you were from Seattle, Olympia, or Tacoma you were a grunge band like it or not.




Nod, that's why Hendrix and Queensryche are grunge.


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## Darrin Drader (Apr 17, 2008)

haakon1 said:
			
		

> Nod, that's why Hendrix and Queensryche are grunge.




If you add time to that equation, I think it's pretty close to accurate. Queensryche, Hendrix, and Heart, among others, were obviously products of different times.


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## SSquirrel (Apr 17, 2008)

They have been re-concepted as some who work for the Raven Queen (or whatever she is) in the Shadowfell.  Not entirely like their 3E incarnation, what I saw seemed pretty neat so far, I'm willing to give them a chance.  A good story and some good art makes them beg to be used.

As far as leaving out a specific giant or dragon, so what we already have craploads of them from over the years.  I'm sure there are multiple giants found in the MM already and w/the recent change to how they're approaching giants to not just be a big humanoid, it should be interesting


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## Khur (Apr 17, 2008)

DrunkonDuty said:
			
		

> These descriptions of the shadar-kai remind me a bit of the Qullan, also from the original FF. They were freaky, tattooed berserkers who got off on pain and scarification. They also had a permanent Chaos field around them. Me, I'd like to see these guys come back.



OK. How does a June 6th comeback work for you? New name okay? Hope so, because the MM is printing now, and those presses ain't stopping to save that name.   

Oh, and nobody's trying to make shadar-kai the next drow. Maybe back in the 3e Fiend Folio, when Jesse Decker created them, that was a strategy. That was 5 years ago by a couple weeks. That make the issue a little dated, doesn't it?

In fact, we did a lot of work to make them distinct from drow. They seemed like an obvious choice for a low-level threat/potential PC race from the Shadowfell in the new cosmology. Seems like every plane has one or more of those these days. I take that as a good thing.

As far as I know, R&D likes all the monsters that are in the MM. If someone considers shadar-kai a pet project (be polite about it), I'm not aware of it. We picked them for the _Dungeon _article just to showcase another creature that made a transition into 4e, but that could also be used in 3e games, in the RvR column. We picked them in a group meeting.   

And for the win, terror bird. I blame the academics, really. I mean, come on. But if it's good enough for Robert E. Howard, isn't it good enough for D&D? I think so. I mean, look at my sig.

Now, I might be the only one in R&D who likes grunge . . . and Queensryche (not grunge, if you ask me) . . . and a little Hendrix (also not). Or maybe it's just Queensryche. Probably an umlaut problem.


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## Hussar (Apr 17, 2008)

S'mon said:
			
		

> George RR Martin was publishing in the mid-late '70s?  Githyanki first appeared in White Dwarf magazine around 1978 AIR, before being collated in Fiend Folio years later.




Yup.  Wiki to the rescue:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Githyanki



> The githyanki were created by Charles Stross for his Advanced Dungeons & Dragons campaign. It was first published in White Dwarf in the late 1970s, and in 1981 in the Fiend Folio. Stross borrowed from a fictional race created by George R. R. Martin in his 1977 science fiction novel Dying of the Light. George R. R. Martin himself was not aware of the name being borrowed until the 2000s. The githyanki/ illithid relationship was inspired by Larry Niven's World of Ptavvs.


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## DrunkonDuty (Apr 17, 2008)

Ya know, I had a weird inkling that "Terror Bird" may have been a proper scientific name. There ya go.

Oh I like the idea of having a rich cosmology with potential foes that work for varied levels. Gotta be good for adventuring. Not that I'm gonna be getting into 4th ED anytime soon, quite happy with 3rd (toned down a bit) and HERO. Of course I may well steal, er, borrow ideas from it to integrate into any games I run. Never say no to a potential well of inspiration.


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## haakon1 (Apr 17, 2008)

Khur said:
			
		

> Now, I might be the only one in R&D who likes grunge . . . and Queensryche (not grunge, if you ask me) . . . and a little Hendrix (also not). Or maybe it's just Queensryche. Probably an umlaut problem.




For the record, I was raising an eyebrow on snarky comedy when I said if being from Seattle makes a band grunge, then Hendrix and Queensryche must be grunge.  I don't disagree with the idea that being early 1990s Seattle = grunge.  And I don't think Jimi or Queensryche are grunge.

I'm a moderate Hendrix fan (have the best of CD and a few other odds and ends like the BBC sessions).  The latest chapter of my PBEM is called "All Along the Watchtower".  I'm enough of a fan to know he didn't write it, Dylan did, but I also don't care because Jimi did it best.

Queensryche is OK, but I never bought any of their stuff.  I'm a Floyd fan, and I figure they are in the Floyd tradition.

That means Hendrix is classic blues-rock with guitar rending power, represented by the troll since he's from Seattle, while Queensryche is art rock, represented by the dryad.

And further for the record, I wore flannel since the early 1980s, and I still do more often than anyone but a lumberjack should.


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## LordVyreth (Apr 17, 2008)

Evilhalfling said:
			
		

> True neutral shape shifting outsiders (?)




Those were the Rilmari, right?  I think they actually predate 3rd Ed.  From what I heard from fans, the modern incarnation is not very well-liked.  This was the book that brought back the Dark Ones as well, didn't it?  Again, that's not a new design, but arguably attempt to make an old design "cool."


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## Korgoth (Apr 17, 2008)

Is it really true, as alluded to upthread, that Shadar-Kai will "shudder with pleasure" when you spear them, and otherwise get off on being chopped up in combat?  Because if so that's totally disgusting.


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## SSquirrel (Apr 18, 2008)

They'll shudder and grind into the weapon and taunt you to hurt them more.  Shadar-kai will make great use of the Book of Erotic Fantasy I'll bet


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## hamishspence (Apr 18, 2008)

*terror bird*

translation of scientific name phorusrachos. Largest member of the family (Titanis) was over 2 metres tall. And yes, wasn't a very good illustration.


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## Khur (Apr 18, 2008)

haakon1 said:
			
		

> For the record, I was raising an eyebrow on snarky comedy when I said if being from Seattle makes a band grunge, then Hendrix and Queensryche must be grunge.  I don't disagree with the idea that being early 1990s Seattle = grunge.  And I don't think Jimi or Queensryche are grunge.



 Well, honestly, I don't know enough about music (academically speaking) to really say anything at all about its history or classification, probably even in jest. That's what I was doing too, though. 

Now Queensryche in flannel . . . no, I'll just stop.


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## Kishin (Apr 18, 2008)

Korgoth said:
			
		

> Is it really true, as alluded to upthread, that Shadar-Kai will "shudder with pleasure" when you spear them, and otherwise get off on being chopped up in combat?  Because if so that's totally disgusting.




They need to feel pain to feel a connection to life, and to not simply fade into restless shade-like nonentities in the Shadowfell. So, yes, I'd say.

Also completely unrelated, but Queenrsryche != grunge. They're much more of a prog band.


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