# What's the best guide to good hybrid choices?



## Piratecat (Feb 17, 2010)

I'm trying to get a feel for the best ways to use the hybrid rules. Does anyone know of resources that discuss good vs. bad choices, and what might be abused?

Thanks!


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## Blackbrrd (Feb 17, 2010)

I always use the charop forums Whoops! Browser Settings Incompatible to answer questions like this.

You will see ALL the cheese you ever want. You can then use moderate the cheese builds and get a very good build that isn't broken.


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## Mengu (Feb 17, 2010)

I think as long as at least primary or secondary stat of one class overlaps with the primary of the other, and weapon/implement choices don't get too complicated, there is potential.

Paladin|Sorcerer and Paladin|Warlock are some interesting choices for inflicting catch 22 situations.

I think Ranger|Cleric is a pretty cool combo for small parties, covering 2 roles quite reasonably.

And I hear Fighter|Ranger wins D&D. 

Edit: A quick note, Hybrid characters are often feat starved and can feel a bit behind other characters for that reason, especially at lower levels.


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## KarinsDad (Feb 17, 2010)

Mengu said:


> Edit: A quick note, Hybrid characters are often feat starved and can feel a bit behind other characters for that reason, especially at lower levels.




Not just feat starved, but class feature starved as well.

The main thing with creating a hybrid is to understand that if Hybrid Talent has to be used in order to get a decent AC, then that particular hybrid is probably going to be challenged in a lot of ways.

If the AC of the two classes overlap quite a bit and Hybrid Talent can be used for something other than AC (typically a lacking class feature), then the concept is probably a lot more viable. There are exceptions to this (like Paladin plus almost anything where Plate armor makes up for a lot), but this is the general concept.


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## Nifft (Feb 17, 2010)

In general, Hybrids seem less powerful than single-classed characters.

There are some exceptional classes which mix well -- like Barbarians, who have most of their class features in their Power list -- but in general, losing class features weakens you more than you gain in return.

The canonical example of a "mechanically good" hybrid is the Sorcerer|Barbarian, because the Sorcerer's Utility powers are so insanely great, and the Barbarian's attack powers are of a similar nature in both greatness and insanity.

Cheers, -- N

PS: Sure, there are tricks a Paladin|Warlock can play, but honestly you can do most of that as just a plain old Half-Elf Paladin with Eyebite.


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## Turtlejay (Feb 17, 2010)

I think it just takes a greater degree of system mastery to make it work for you.  For example, I brought in a Fighter|Warlord, and it *could* have been well built, but I didn't do a great job of it.  He was not sticky at all, and was half the healer/buffer that a Warlord can be.  Another player brought in a Wizard|Warlock and despite not sharing a common attack stat like my combo did, his character is very effective, because it is well made.

As for resources, ENWorld posters are an okay resource, you might get a lot of (unsolicited) advice from here, which could be helpful.  I poked around charop the first time I built my hybrid and I don't think it helped much.  Has anyone with experience using iplay4e or obsidian portal noticed any way to look at builds there?  A lot of characters get uploaded to those sites, it would be nice to be able to use that data.

jay


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## Stuntman (Feb 18, 2010)

The best way to use hybrid characters is to use it when a single classed or multiclassed character does not allow you to build a character that fits your character concept.


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## Destil (Feb 18, 2010)

I wouldn't spent too much time on Char-op because they only really care about outliers. And it's rarely hybrid that breaks things (in some cases, sure). Unless they have a handbook out for it.

I've had 2 hybrid PCs in the game I'm running, and I'm looking to bring in a third shortly. It really comes down to a few things:

Good class features. Some hybrids just get gypped (paladin), while some take almost no penalty to core abilities (swordmage). Mostly for the defender role: they rely on their central class features but those features aren't easy to scale back. Leaders have a very simple core ability that can be scaled back to half in a linear way (their 2/encounter heal), strikers all pretty much play by the same rules (bonus to damage only with class powers). Controllers really lack defining class features and therefore are usually in a pretty good shape as hybrids, they're mainly about power selection.

AC is another issue, you need to choose carefully to not gimp yourself here, OR you need to take a pairing that doesn't really need anything extra from Hybrid Talent so you can get armor (or an armor emulating feature like swordmage warding). Even after that, hybrids are feat-starved as they have access to two classes worth of feats and may need them to get back on par in an area. Good feat selection can help you fall more into one of your two roles (toughness for defenders, for example).

Stats need some overlap, but that's usually pretty clear.

Feat support overlap. Lots of feats are better for certain classes. Since you're going to feel feat-starved anyway you should really look for combos that have a lot of good potential synergy. Look for things like combos that use many powers with the same damage type, make lots of charging attacks, like and have good chances to crit et cetera.

Putting it all together: Swordmage / Artificer is a great combo for example. Swordmages have (IMHO) the strongest hybrid marking mechanic, artifacer don't loose anything key for being a hybrid. Both are happy in leather armor (though you'll want swordmage warding) and you can go Int/Con and have full stat overlap. Both have a mix of implement and weapon powers, and you can use any blade for an implement (you'll want a blade for warding). They both do pretty well with force and thunder powers, which have some nice feat support. On top of that both have controller sub-roles, if you multiclass into wizard you're going to be able to slip between three distinct roles to a fairly wide degree. You'll never beat a generalist but how well you can cover each role is mostly down to how you choose your powers gear and feats.


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## Prism (Feb 18, 2010)

My experience with hybrids is limited, however I have played a couple of levels now as a rogue/sorcerer. Its probably one of my most combat effective characters. There is good stat and weapon (dagger) synergy. I use sorcerous blasts against multiple foes and weapon attacks vs single. Rogues have plenty of minor action attacks which allows sneak and sorcerer extra damage in the same round. This is a 3.5 rogue/sorcerer conversion which is the reason I looked at hybrid.

One of the guys in our group is playing a very effective cleric/wizard mobile command and contol center in another campaign, again due to a conversion. He seems to dictate the flow of most battles


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## jbear (Feb 18, 2010)

Stat synergy is important. The Primary of one class should at least be the secondary of the other and vice versa. If both classes share the primary (and secondary) stat then all the better. Swordmage/Wizards are another viable option as they Share Intelligence and Constitution. If you go down the White Lotus Feat line you can become a very undesireable target.

Ranger/Shaman works beautifully with Dex and Wis. The archer ranger doesn't have very good class features at all and the high dexterity makes your AC decent. So you can safely choose one of the Spirit Boons (which are  frankly, awesome) and so gain an opportunity attack for your archer ranger. My wife plays this build in my game and her opportunity action gives a free ranged basic attack to a nearby ally. There is a sorcerer in the group with Dragon Frost (counts as ranged basic attack) so this is very nice combo. Her other at will is very leadery, forfeiting her own attack and giving an attack to an ally. So basically when she is taken out of combat for whatever reason or suffering a serious disadvantage she can still give her actions to another team member.

The Cleric/Invoker is another viable option, as they share Wisdom as a Primary Stat and both use chainmail armour. Also the class features are basically Channel Divinity for either, so you can choose the one you prefer without losing anything too major. Obviously the powers you choose for your cleric are all going to be ranged as your strength is most likely a pitiful 10. Here you can get away a 16 in your secondary stat after racial adjustments as they both share primary Wisdom, so Human is a great option for the 3rd At Will Power and extra feat (domain feats to boost your at-will powers is a good option) As you can take Astral Seal as an at-will and it remains very effective even if your charisma is average (thanks to Healers Lore, which Hybrids get for free) you can remain a very effective leader with at-will surgeless healing and constant enemy debuffs and switch to the controller role with you other powers when the situation calls for it.

The two-weapon  Str Fighter/Ranger with high Dex is another nice combination taking the Tempest Fighting Technique, Twin Strike becomes very accurate and damaging with the static bonuses to damage. They also both share Wis as a secondary stat. I suppose you could take the Fighters 'Twin Strike' for the Marking but the Charge Attack that knocks prone is a nice variant to have. The Combat Challenge Feature is a free feature so the Hybrid Fighter's marking ability is still ok. Rain of Blows and Off hand attack ... need I say more ... and if you get 13 Wis you can multi class into Avenger!!! 4 attacks rolling every attack twice ... and applying marking and ranger Prey damage... why not blow an action point while your at it and twin strike!!

The Paladin/Warlock with Charisma as a primary stat looks awesome on paper. I haven't seen it in play. As you can get away with having just a high Car human is again a valid option to get the third at will and bonus feat. Paladins and Warlocks both have powers that qualify as melee basic attacks using Car so you can be a formidable melee defender with laughable Strength. Unfortunately their armour class is rubbish ... a paladin in leather armour with 16 Int at most.... doesn't make your Divine Challenge a very hard choice (AC 15 at lvl 1... errrrk!)... so Paladin Armour Proficiency as your Hybrid Talent is pretty much obligatory which means you miss out on having one of the many neat Pact Boons (booo hoo hoo)... Then again a warlock wearing Plate with a Heavy Shield...terrifying! Especially if you take into account if you take a ranged Warlock Power... lets say Eyebite you can keep up your divine challenge from a distance... and not only that but you are invisible to the start of your next turn so -5 to their attacks to hit you (your AC is already probably 20 at level 1) or they take -2 on their attacks against allies and receive 4 Radiant damage (assuming your charisma is 18). If you take into account you are viable for the White Lotus Feats and you can have eldritch strike as a melee basic attack you are going to inflict a lot of lose lose situations on your enemies. If you take Valiant Strike as your melee basic attack you now have at will radiant damge and with the sun domain feat you can inflict 3 radiant vulnerability on your target... if its under you Divine Challenge and ignores you then the 4 damage becomes 7... and if you have a divine oriented party with radiant attacks this becomes wow! And with the 'Crimson  something Feat' your warlock challenge becomes 1d10 dmg if your target is under your divine challenge. 

I guess the pattern of good combination follows a good stat synergy, decent defenses and an attractive combination of class features and powers that make up for your weaknesses. Some combinations just don't work because they require three or more decent stats or they leave your defenses ridiculously low... playing around on the character builder even just making characters up to level 3 or 4 will give you a pretty good idea whether they are viable or not.


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## jbear (Feb 18, 2010)

As for things that could be abused:

Martial Power 2: New At Will Ranger Power 'Throw and Stab'
You have a thrown weapon in one hand and a melee weapon in the other (although the wording is unclear whether a thrown melee weapon on its own is possible). You throw the thrown weapon (lets say a javelin as it's the first thing that springs to mind) for 1d6 + ranger's prey damage (1d6 at level 1 ... but lets take a feat and bump this to 1d8)...

... then as an EFFECT!!!! you can charge. So a charge is a movement and a melee Basic attack. Several classes have at wills that can be used as melee basic attacks. Take the Barbarian's Howling Strike which can be used on a charge.... whoah! And let's put on some fairly low level heroic tier magic items: Horned Helm (+1d6 dmg on a charge) a +1 vanguard Bastard Sword (+1d8 on a charge; versatile... can wield it in one hand and then switch to 2handed as a free action after throwing the javelin for +1 dmg) Boots of Adept Charging (shift after a charge) and Badge of Berserker (charge movement doesn't provoke opportunity attacks) add in the lvl 1 Barbarian Daily rage that allows you to charge through an enemy's square for an extra 1[w] dmg (reminding yourself that with Badge of the Beserker you can do this without provoking an opportunity attack) and your At Will standard action is dishing out something like like this if both attacks (throw and charge) hit:

1d6 +1d8 (Javelin and Prey damage) + 1d10+1+1+1d6 +Str 4 (+1 Bastard Sword Weilded 2 Handed with Howling Strike...which also gets +1 atq for the charge) +1d8 +1d6 (helm and vanguard weapon) +1d10+1 (Rage): 
1d6+1d8+ 1d10+1+1+4+1d6+1d8+1d6+1d10+1 = 3d6+2d8+2d10+7 = 14-61
and then Shift!

And doable by level 4! And without a magical javelin! ANd I'm sure someone more savvy than me could break this even more.

I'm fairly sure this will be first on the list of powers to see an errata.


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## Turtlejay (Feb 18, 2010)

How are you wielding a bastard sword 2 handed and still throwing a weapon?  I doubt that, by raw, you can switch hands in the middle of a power.

And yes, building a charge-optimizing beast is nice if you can cherry pick every item you want for it.  Most players can't do that.

Jay


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## MrMyth (Feb 18, 2010)

jbear said:


> add in the lvl 1 Barbarian Daily rage that allows you to charge through an enemy's square for an extra 1[w] dmg (reminding yourself that with Badge of the Beserker you can do this without provoking an opportunity attack)




Remember that if you are charging an enemy, you stop at the closest square from which you can attack. Which means you can't charge through them for the extra 1[W] - at least not at level 1. 

It is definitely strong. I wouldn't be surprised if it sees errata that requires you have a thrown weapon in one hand and a melee weapon in the other, to avoid the issue of wandering around with enormous throwing fullblades/greatspears/etc that can be used for both parts. It will still be effective, but that will mitigate things somewhat.


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## On Puget Sound (Feb 19, 2010)

I'm playing a hybrid ranger/rogue whose at-wills are the only standard actions he has.  All encounters and dailies are free, minor or immediate actions.  The point is to score both Hunter's Quarry and Sneak Attack damage on the same turn by using both a ranger attack and a rogue attack.  Link is in my sig (Chizz).


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## Stuntman (Feb 19, 2010)

On Puget Sound said:


> I'm playing a hybrid ranger/rogue whose at-wills are the only standard actions he has.  All encounters and dailies are free, minor or immediate actions.  The point is to score both Hunter's Quarry and Sneak Attack damage on the same turn by using both a ranger attack and a rogue attack.  Link is in my sig (Chizz).




I've seen this build before.  I was wondering how well this works in practice.  Are you able to consistently gain combat advantage?


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## Shin Okada (Feb 19, 2010)

Primary or secondary stats overwrap will be important. But I do not think spending a feat to gain high AC is always bad.

Some Striker/Paladin hybrid works well. Having only 1 (or 2, in case of human) striker at-will may be a slight disadvantage. But you can have high AC without raising stats for AC. Say, Str/Con or Str/Cha barbarian, or warlocks, can just continue raise Primal and Secondary ability scores needed for their powers while wearing nice shiny full-plate.


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## interwyrm (Feb 19, 2010)

Some good ideas up above. As a general guide, I'd do the following

1. Ability score compatibility.
1a. Both classes sharing the primary OR both classes using the same two is best (eg. barb|sorc for str/cha) 
1b. The primary of one is the secondary of the other is usually ok.
1c. Avoid situations where only the secondary overlaps. If this is the case, try to avoid powers with secondary stat based adders.
1d. Especially avoid situations where the primaries are in the same group, e.g. wis/cha

2. Power compatibility - This one requires a lot more thought. What you're looking for is any kind of synergy. 
2a. "Can be used as a (melee) basic attack (on a charge)" is a phrase to look out for. This is especially helpful for hybrids because they don't get class adders on basic attacks. 
2b. Immediate and free action attacks. These can be used to sidestep the 1/round striker damage kludge. See rogue|ranger for details. 


3. General Multiclassing Advice
3a. Paragon path adders. Specific build options that work well with certain class features/powers. For example, feytouched + swordmage assault aegis, Student of Caiphon with paladin and warlock or sorcerer.
3b. Powers which are not working as intended. By this I mean things like fire shield, which is intended to keep enemies away from the squishy wizard. If a sticky defender uses it instead, it creates extra hurt.
3c. A hybrid is a good option in a situation where you would benefit from 3 or more class feats. For example, eladrin swordmage advance (swordmage), fey charge (fighter), surprising charge (rogue), and maybe that warlord one that lets you bring someone along on a fey step, or some barbarian charging feats, or feytouched for damage when starting a fey charge.

4. Armor
Only use your hybrid talent for armor if it gives a significant advantage. The two cases that stand out are paladin plate, and barbarian hide + class ac bonus.

5. Weapons/Implements Consider your weapons and implements when creating a hybrid. 
Arcane casters can use light/heavy blades with a feat for both melee attacks and spells.  Most can also use a staff as an implement and a 2h/double weapon(with feat). 
IIRC, implement users can use either class's implements for either class's powers. There could be some fun to be had using holy symbols for arcane powers for example.

That's about all I can think of.


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## eamon (Feb 19, 2010)

Destil said:


> Good class features. Some hybrids just get gypped (paladin), while some take almost no penalty to core abilities (swordmage). Mostly for the defender role: they rely on their central class features but those features aren't easy to scale back.



Hmm, I'm not sure I agree - both paladin and swordmage really need Hybrid talent to work well.  A swordmage loses warding, which is generally 3AC - a pretty big deal to my eyes.







> Leaders have a very simple core ability that can be scaled back to half in a linear way (their 2/encounter heal), strikers all pretty much play by the same rules (bonus to damage only with class powers). Controllers really lack defining class features and therefore are usually in a pretty good shape as hybrids, they're mainly about power selection.



Mostly this looks right - certainly the wizard is pretty OK, in hybrid form.  The trick here is that the wizard's armor proficiencies are truly terrible, so (for instance) combining him with a swordmage means you're losing warding _and_ leather proficiency - which would be two feats to regain, one of which is your hybrid talent.  In general, lightly armored classes look like they get the better deal; but the problem is they drag down your overall proficiency and _that_'s a feat-intensive problem.

In any case, a wizard loses his implement mastery which isn't too bad.  An invoker loses channel divinity (possibly slightly more painful, but still OK).  On the other hand, the druid is pretty heavily gimped - he loses an at-will and his AC/speed feature.  Since a druid's wild-shape really depends on having powers for wild-shape, losing an at-will and having fewer druid powers in the first place means that building a hybrid-druid with real wild-shape utility is going to be tricky.




> Putting it all together: Swordmage / Artificer is a great combo for example. Swordmages have (IMHO) the strongest hybrid marking mechanic, artifacer don't loose anything key for being a hybrid.



Well... an artificer loses arcane rejuvenation; that feature really matters in tricky battles.  Those temporary hit points really add up, right when you need em too, generally.  Arcane Empowerment's also nice, but more situational.

Most hybrids look to lose well over half of their features - and even after hybrid talent, most combos will be well behind their single-classed variants.  Not unplayably so, certainly, but you really are losing quite a bit.  I don't think I'd suggest a hybrid pre-paragon just because of the heavy feat investment required.

If you're going to build a hybrid, one thing you can make use of is free implement proficiency - you can use an implement of either class for all powers, so if you're considering springing for arcane implement proficiency or some other construction, then a hybrid might be a reasonable alternative.


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## Neonchameleon (Feb 19, 2010)

Destil said:


> Good class features. Some hybrids just get gypped (paladin),




Bah!  The ability to bring plate and heavy shield proficiency to your ally class for a single feat is ... impressive.  Paladin/Sorceror in specific is _really_ nasty as you are a tank-mage if you get the Paladin hybrid talent - divine challenge some poor sod and then blaze away, keeping him marked because you are attacking.  If he attacks someone else he takes mark and mark damage - and if he makes it through to you, you are in plate armour and not going to fall over any time soon while you either run away or pound him in melee.


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## jbear (Feb 19, 2010)

Turtlejay said:


> How are you wielding a bastard sword 2 handed and still throwing a weapon?  I doubt that, by raw, you can switch hands in the middle of a power.
> 
> And yes, building a charge-optimizing beast is nice if you can cherry pick every item you want for it.  Most players can't do that.
> 
> Jay



its a free action.


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## jbear (Feb 19, 2010)

MrMyth said:


> Remember that if you are charging an enemy, you stop at the closest square from which you can attack. Which means you can't charge through them for the extra 1[W] - at least not at level 1.
> 
> It is definitely strong. I wouldn't be surprised if it sees errata that requires you have a thrown weapon in one hand and a melee weapon in the other, to avoid the issue of wandering around with enormous throwing fullblades/greatspears/etc that can be used for both parts. It will still be effective, but that will mitigate things somewhat.



true. ok, so take that out of the equation.

I think the errata will take out the word charge altogether and replace it with move your speed and make a secondary melee attack.

I could be wrong. But a power that makes howling strike even better (way better imho) which is already a top range striker power is going to be revised fairly promptly.


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## Turtlejay (Feb 20, 2010)

Just a little spreadsheet I made to get a visual of Hybrid possibilities. It looks like Str/Wis is the most optimal choice, with 4 classes that have Str primary and Wis secondary. Nothing special, but it was interesting to me so I'll post it here.

Jay

EDIT - In case it isn't clear, any row would make a good hybrid.  For example, the only Dex/Con class is the Assasin, but if you go across the row you can see all the other Dex builds that make a good MC.  The columns are secondary, so they might have *some* synergy, but not much.  For example, the Assassin/Barbarian could benefit from higher Con, but would still need two primary attack stats.  Not a good thing.


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## Piratecat (Feb 20, 2010)

Thanks, Jay, that's handy.


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## Flipguarder (Feb 20, 2010)

very handy. thanks


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## Nifft (Feb 20, 2010)

Turtlejay said:


> For example, the Assassin/Barbarian could benefit from higher Con, but would still need two primary attack stats.  Not a good thing.



 The time when it *is* a good thing is when class A's primary attack stat is class B's secondary stat, and vice-versa -- for example, Cha Barbarian + Str Sorcerer = awesome, and same for Dex Sorcerer + Cha Rogue.

Cheers, -- N


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## Turtlejay (Feb 20, 2010)

Nifft said:


> The time when it *is* a good thing is when class A's primary attack stat is class B's secondary stat, and vice-versa -- for example, Cha Barbarian + Str Sorcerer = awesome, and same for Dex Sorcerer + Cha Rogue.
> 
> Cheers, -- N




Yeah, I noticed that like, a few minutes after I put it up. Now each stat pairing just lists all classes that have that as a Primary or Secondary. Note that some classes have pretty weak Secondaries (Wizards have Cha as a secondary. . .)

So, lets try this again.

Jay


View attachment Hybrid Matrix 2!.xls


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## Neonchameleon (Feb 20, 2010)

Nifft said:


> The time when it *is* a good thing is when class A's primary attack stat is class B's secondary stat, and vice-versa -- for example, Cha Barbarian + Str Sorcerer = awesome, and same for Dex Sorcerer + Cha Rogue.
> 
> Cheers, -- N



It works even better when they share primary stats, but use them in completely different ways.

Obvious ones:

Paladin/Sorceror (arguably also Paladin/Warlock, but not anything like as strongly)
Wizard/Swordmage
Barbarian/Warden
Druid/Shaman (Invoker and Shaman don't share implements).


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## Nifft (Feb 20, 2010)

Turtlejay said:


> Yeah, I noticed that like, a few minutes after I put it up. Now each stat pairing just lists all classes that have that as a Primary or Secondary. Note that some classes have pretty weak Secondaries (Wizards have Cha as a secondary. . .)
> 
> So, lets try this again.
> 
> View attachment 43038



 Cool, looks much better now.



Neonchameleon said:


> It works even better when they share primary stats, but use them in completely different ways.
> 
> Obvious ones:
> 
> ...



 Eh, now we're getting into specifics too much: IMHO Paladin|X works poorly because hybrid Paladin is severely nerfed, while Wizard|X works well because so much of the Wizard's value is in his power-list.

I'd much rather play a Con Warlock | Shielding Swordmage than a Paladin | Sorcerer, because of the specific differences between how they hybridized Paladin and Swordmage.

Cheers, -- N


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## Flipguarder (Feb 20, 2010)

I just built a fighter swordmage combo. The fighter works pretty well because you can choose the powers that have extra non-numerical bonuses instead of stat dependant ones. using hybrid talent to get the +1 to hit and taking the kensi pp you get a good bonus to both sets of powers and im pretty happy overall with it.

The idea was to get a guy who's entire life revolves around his sword.


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## AbdulAlhazred (Feb 21, 2010)

I think despite that it is fashionable here to disparage the WotC charops forums they are by far the best place to get good solid info on what works well mechanically. There are of course people that spend their time there cooking up some ridiculous stuff, but the vast majority of discussion tends to be about solidly practical concepts. People may take them to extremes but usually that is how you find out what the system can do.

You'll learn more in an hour there than in a week here in terms of which mechanics go together and how to craft a character out of it. You may never want to play 80% of the builds you find there as-is but since when do you want people handing you your character sheet anyway? All it takes is a minuscule amount of common sense to see what you want to play and what you don't.


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## Prism (Feb 21, 2010)

Neonchameleon said:


> Druid/Shaman (Invoker and Shaman don't share implements).




Hybrids don't need to worry about matching implements - they can use the implements of both classes on all their powers


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## Piratecat (Feb 21, 2010)

Dumb-ass question of the morning: I just headed over to the Character Builder to make a hybrid character, and I'm not seeing the option. Is it there and I'm just missing it?


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## Mengu (Feb 21, 2010)

Piratecat said:


> Dumb-ass question of the morning: I just headed over to the Character Builder to make a hybrid character, and I'm not seeing the option. Is it there and I'm just missing it?




Probably (unless you have a very old version of CB). When choosing your class look carefully. It's the 5th row in the 3rd block.


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## Piratecat (Feb 21, 2010)

Dang, my eyes must have slid over it five times without absorbing it. Thanks!


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## Storminator (Feb 24, 2010)

I tried to make a druid/shaman hybrid. I think it's the most complicated 4e character possible. Just ridiculously tricky.

Looks like fun to play! 

PS


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## interwyrm (Feb 24, 2010)

Btw, unless I'm mistaken, hybrids are seriously bugged in the CB right now with respect to power replacement. You can never swap out a power from a class you only have one power for. So unclear...

Say you have a barb|sorc

1. Enc Sorc power
3. Enc Barb Power
7. Enc Barb Power
13. You can only switch out your barb powers. Worse, you can't switch one out for a sorc power.

This should hopefully be fixed early next month.


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## Deverash (Feb 24, 2010)

jbear said:


> its a free action.




Yes, it is.  There isn't anything specific about throwing something in one hand and then switching to a two-handed melee weapon for the second half of the power.  However, the rule for fighter powers that require one hand free makes a strong case you aren't intended to do that(If the power requires one hand to be free, it must be free for the entire power, or until that hand is used in the power, for example to make a grab.).

Edit: Bah, forgot to mention that rule is in MP2.


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## interwyrm (Feb 24, 2010)

On a related note, does anyone have a good idea on how to use a hybrid druid wild shape / beast form powers?


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## jester_gl (Feb 24, 2010)

I tried a couple of hybrid build myself: 
1. Druid/avenger: at first the idea was to be a sticky isolating avenger that would then wild shape to slap the other silly, but it got transformed along the way to take only implement power that could be used up close.  Surprisingly fun.

2. Druid/invoker: A true invoker of Chauntea, with summon and some fireseed mixed in.  Lots of controller effect.

3. Sorcerer/Paladin: Plate-wearing fire-breathing machine.  Lacking in the true damage department but still iconic enough to be fun.  Dragonborn of course.  Needs to be higher level (paragon hybrid) to stop being such a wuss though.


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## MrMyth (Feb 24, 2010)

Storminator said:


> I tried to make a druid/shaman hybrid. I think it's the most complicated 4e character possible. Just ridiculously tricky.
> 
> Looks like fun to play!




Yeah, I just started in LFR a Druid|Warden/Shaman, which I've had fun with. In a lot of ways it simply resembles an old-school druid, in that it sorta does everything: wild shape, companion, healing, summoning, etc. Economy of actions keeps things balanced, of course, but it is a lot of fun being so adaptive for whatever the party needs.


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## jbear (Feb 24, 2010)

Deverash said:


> Yes, it is.  There isn't anything specific about throwing something in one hand and then switching to a two-handed melee weapon for the second half of the power.  However, the rule for fighter powers that require one hand free makes a strong case you aren't intended to do that(If the power requires one hand to be free, it must be free for the entire power, or until that hand is used in the power, for example to make a grab.).
> 
> Edit: Bah, forgot to mention that rule is in MP2.



i agree the issue enters murky waters. The charge is a separate action triggered by the effect however, its not even a secondary attack.

nevertheless what is intended and what each dm rules is a case of personal preference. Legally however, it is ok.


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## KarinsDad (Feb 25, 2010)

interwyrm said:


> Btw, unless I'm mistaken, hybrids are seriously bugged in the CB right now with respect to power replacement. You can never swap out a power from a class you only have one power for. So unclear...
> 
> Say you have a barb|sorc
> 
> ...




This is probably caused by the alternating power rule.

Try replacing the 7. Enc Barb Power with a 7. Enc Sorc Power and see if the 13 power now only allows a Sorcerer swap.

Not that this fixes the issue, it doesn't. If this happens, it probably explains why the problem occurs.


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