# Brave New Planes OOC



## Paxus Asclepius (Feb 25, 2004)

Here's the new OOC thread.  Incidentally, y'all get to level now.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 25, 2004)

Woot!  I get two because I'm the first one here right? 

No need to really reply to that btw.  I'll just assume there was no real reward for being first.


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## Velenne (Feb 25, 2004)

I'll take the extra level if Brystasia doesn't want it then. ;p


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## Velenne (Feb 25, 2004)

Antillis levels in Fighter (3rd). 



> 7 + 11 HP's = 243 (271 while Raging)
> 2 SP's (1 in Intimidate, 1 in Jump)
> +1 BAB
> +1 Base Reflex and Will saves
> Paralysis DC improves by 1 (10 + 7 [1/2 HD]+ 11 [CON] + 2 [Feat] = 30 (32 if Raging))




Any issues with that?


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## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 25, 2004)

Brystasia takes a new PrC.  Divine Champion. 



> 7 + 4 HP's = 194 (Non magically adjusted)
> 5 SP's (5 in Spot)
> BAB: +1
> Fort Save: +2
> Ref Save: +2


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## Paxus Asclepius (Feb 25, 2004)

Velenne said:
			
		

> Antillis levels in Fighter (3rd).
> 
> 
> 
> Any issues with that?




Paralysis DC is based only on racial hit dice, isn't it?


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## Serpenteye (Feb 25, 2004)

I've thought some more about Sandorels' history and now i think I made a mistake in character generation. The Leadership feat would have suited him perfectly considering his personality, and Extra Turning is turning out to be less than useful. My question is, can I drop Extra Turning and pick up Leadership instead? Sandorel could use a little church of his very own , and he really doesn't need to turn undead 12 times a day.


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## Paxus Asclepius (Feb 25, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> I've thought some more about Sandorels' history and now i think I made a mistake in character generation. The Leadership feat would have suited him perfectly considering his personality, and Extra Turning is turning out to be less than useful. My question is, can I drop Extra Turning and pick up Leadership instead? Sandorel could use a little church of his very own , and he really doesn't need to turn undead 12 times a day.




I'll allow the swapping of the feat, but you won't retroactively pick up a cohort (followers are easy enough to get, so you can have those).


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## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 25, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> I'll allow the swapping of the feat, but you won't retroactively pick up a cohort (followers are easy enough to get, so you can have those).



Very cool, out of character in all , but I'm curious how long in till he does get a cohort? 

Here I thought that Sanderol was a loner like Brystasia. 

I'll edit this post since I'm curious if I can keep the number of OOC posts that I make...   

PA, when do you suspect that the auction day will be posted?


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## Velenne (Feb 25, 2004)

Looking at the SRD, it appears that you're right.  That would make it DC 28, 30 if he's raging.


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## Paxus Asclepius (Feb 25, 2004)

Auction will be posted either tonight or tomorrow night, depending on homework load.


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## Serpenteye (Feb 25, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> I'll allow the swapping of the feat, but you won't retroactively pick up a cohort (followers are easy enough to get, so you can have those).




 Thanks, that's really nice of you. 

Btw, How many XPs does Sandorel have? (for creating Epic Spells)



> Here I thought that Sanderol was a loner like Brystasia.




He is. But he's also a man of faith, and he needs his flock; People who share his beliefs and allow themselves to be guided by him . He probably won't take any of his people with him on adventures.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 25, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> He probably won't take any of his people with him on adventures.



Yeah followers should only travel if their is an army, mass combat and holy wars.  It's also a good thing for Brystasia, as she wouldn't really want to have to deal with the flock of men around her.

You would kind of think with her charisma that she should invest in the leadership feat but she would rather hunt for the relics and the masterworks then to giver sermons and lectures.

PA that sounds great.


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## Serpenteye (Feb 25, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Yeah followers should only travel if their is an army, mass combat and holy wars.  It's also a good thing for Brystasia, as she wouldn't really want to have to deal with the flock of men around her.




That's one of the reasons why he wouldn't take them out on adventure with him.  I wouldn't want to lead my people into temptation, plus they wouldn't last a minute where we're going.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 25, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> I wouldn't want to lead my people into temptation



Or look bad when you stare temptation in the eye and blink?


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## Serpenteye (Feb 25, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Or look bad when you stare temptation in the eye and blink?




It wasn't sexual temptation I was referring to, my people are free to indulge themselves as long as everyone is consenting. Such things don't really matter a great deal. The kind of temptation I was writing about was of a more spiritual kind. Brystasia is very impressibe in more ways than one.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 25, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> It wasn't sexual temptation I was referring to, my people are free to indulge themselves as long as everyone is consenting. Such things don't really matter a great deal.



So your saying your followers and others of your kind, would have no issues with you sacking up with a priestess of a goddess?  I always figured that that sort of thing would be like socializing with the enemy and be a bad thing.



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> The kind of temptation I was writing about was of a more spiritual kind. Brystasia is very impressibe in more ways than one.



Hmmm I guess so...  Don’t get me wrong I'm glad you think so, and I don't want her to be only a pretty face, but if you look away her looks I wonder how much value to Sune she would honestly have...  She’s a very loving and compassionate young lady but most of what people see her for is only her physical essence.


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## Serpenteye (Feb 25, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> So your saying your followers and others of your kind, would have no issues with you sacking up with a priestess of a goddess?  I always figured that that sort of thing would be like socializing with the enemy and be a bad thing.




I suppose it might set a bad precedent, that's certainly something that must be taken into consideration, but Sandorel's not the kind of person who easily accepts the restrictions of others on himself. If she seems too influential there might be some problems, but it he would reform her it would boost the faith a great deal.



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Hmmm I guess so...  Don’t get me wrong I'm glad you think so, and I don't want her to be only a pretty face, but if you look away her looks I wonder how much value to Sune she would honestly have...  She’s a very loving and compassionate young lady but most of what people see her for is only her physical essence.




Charisma is also force of personality, and brystasia should have a lot of it. If her appearance gets in the way she should consider covering herself better, perhaps using a mask.   (Not a solution Sandorel would agree with btw )


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## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 26, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> I suppose it might set a bad precedent, that's certainly something that must be taken into consideration, but Sandorel's not the kind of person who easily accepts the restrictions of others on himself. If she seems too influential there might be some problems, but it he would reform her it would boost the faith a great deal.




I'm sure it would just don't expect her to crack easiler, if every.   And the same could be said if she could convert you too. 



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Charisma is also force of personality, and brystasia should have a lot of it.




I'll be the first to admit that I think there should be seven abilities and that I have a certain fondness for the old comeliness score.  Now that’s said if you look at the Nymphs creature descriptions it never once says anything about having a strong personality.  If they have such a strong personality one wouldn't expect for them to hide in the woods from anyone and everything.  So some their personality might be strong but their getting that charisma based off of their physical perfection.  I guess that was more debate over appearance vs. personality.  

As for Brystasia personality I've been trying to play it to be just as beautiful as her body...  She doesn't back down from challenges nor does she like to be lectured.  She might be a bit quick to anger but is just as quick to forgive.  I want her to be a truly passionate person who wears his or her emotions where everyone can see it, her sieve.

Now from the commoner of Waterdeep perspective, to look upon Brystasia is probably proof enough for them that Sune exists and has blessed their daily lives.  

Now if her beautify was taken from her she would still have the same personality but to her church and to the commoners of Waterdeep she would have changed profusely.  Maybe that’s just because of the goddess she worships





			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> If her appearance gets in the way she should consider covering herself better, perhaps using a mask.   (Not a solution Sandorel would agree with btw )




Well luckily for Sandorel neither would Sune.  It's pretty explicit in Sune's dogma to hide beauty is a crime and is probably one of the reasons why she doesn’t have a Hat of disguise.


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## John E Smoke (Feb 26, 2004)

Hey Paxus, you probably saw (or can see, as it goes) my explanation of what's going down with me in the Feng Shui OOC thread, so I'll skip on repeating that mess.  Suffice to say, it looks like I have a major shortage of free time both right now and coming up ahead, so I think I'm going to have to respectfully bow out of this game before joining it- and holding everybody else up with my sporadic posts.

It's a shame, as I'm sure I would have quite enjoyed it, but my hands are probably too full with the games I'm already involved with.  I'm still very much interested in playing, mind you.  I'll have to see how things are going a week from now.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 26, 2004)

John E Smoke said:
			
		

> It's a shame, as I'm sure I would have quite enjoyed it, but my hands are probably too full with the games I'm already involved with.  I'm still very much interested in playing, mind you.  I'll have to see how things are going a week from now.



John personally I consider it a shame but thanks for being up front about your inability to post.  I hope you get some free time and get into the game soon. 

So good luck.


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## Paxus Asclepius (Feb 26, 2004)

Incidentally, what did you do with the notes you found on the Seer's desk?  They appear to have been overlooked.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 26, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Incidentally, what did you do with the notes you found on the Seer's desk?  They appear to have been overlooked.



*not liking the sound of that*

That was probably Sandorel’s department.  Conan was looking at the weapons and Brystasia was admiring the beauty of the place.


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## Endur (Feb 26, 2004)

Conan can read, but I can't imagine why he would be interested in trying to read some notes that a dead wizard left behind.  



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Incidentally, what did you do with the notes you found on the Seer's desk?  They appear to have been overlooked.


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## Wrahn (Feb 26, 2004)

Does this mean that with Mr. Smokes departure my request as an alternate from the first thread (post number 64 for reference) is now in effect or are you guys happy with your group composition.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 26, 2004)

Sorry for the insanely long post tonight but I was really bored...  I got of earlier from work and my wife was at work tonight.  Anyhow, I didn't want the chance to expand upon my character expire and I truly wanted to make Brystasia physical beauty but a blessing and a curse.  I hope I hit my mark and I hope at least one person takes the time to read my insanity.


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## Serpenteye (Feb 26, 2004)

I don't remember any mention of any notes, but yes, Sandorel would have read them too. He had plenty of time for that while he was guading the treasure. He would have looked trough everything we found, to catalogue it so he could make sure if something would go missing. I may have forgotten to mention that earlier.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 26, 2004)

Velenne, very sweet post.   It helps me understand Antillis but of course it will probably just unnerve Brystasia.


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## Paxus Asclepius (Feb 26, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> I don't remember any mention of any notes, but yes, Sandorel would have read them too. He had plenty of time for that while he was guading the treasure. He would have looked trough everything we found, to catalogue it so he could make sure if something would go missing. I may have forgotten to mention that earlier.




Sandorel only:



Spoiler



The notes were on the various rituals he intended to use to drain Abd-Ratep's life force, and use the energy to transform himself into a god.  They are incomplete; the final spells is not written down, and he often references some text that you've never heard of and didn't find there, called (in Abyssal) The First Magicks.  Nevertheless, you can tell that this spell was incredibly powerful, and should have been beyond the Seer's abilities.  You did also find his spellbook.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 26, 2004)

PA, you really need to make a near blank post and then edit it with the appropriate spoiler text as the spoiler text shows up in emails as it did this time for me. Sorry boss hopefully the others haven’t been on since the previous post was emailed to them.

Note:  I can, and do, keep the players knowledge from my own so there is no need to worry about Brystaisa acting upon it.


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## Dalamar (Feb 26, 2004)

You actually read the notifications? I throw them straight to the recycler, usually just taking a quick glance at what thread it is from, and that shows in the subject line.


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## Serpenteye (Feb 26, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Sandorel only:
> 
> 
> 
> ...






Spoiler



Sandorel is disgusted by the notes and decides to keep them for himself. The knowledge itself may give useful insights into other areas and must not be destroyed, but it might be unwise to show it to the others.

Does the spellbook contain any epic spells? Or any rare or unique 0-9th level spells?


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## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 26, 2004)

Dalamar said:
			
		

> You actually read the notifications? I throw them straight to the recycler, usually just taking a quick glance at what thread it is from, and that shows in the subject line.



of course, I have to do something will on dial up, or at work like now I sometimes I can read my out in town email easier than reading on the board.

How's Vilya level coming along?


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## Paxus Asclepius (Feb 26, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...






Spoiler



Nothing you note as particularly rare, save Otiluke's Dispelling Screen and the Greater variant.


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## Paxus Asclepius (Feb 26, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Does this mean that with Mr. Smokes departure my request as an alternate from the first thread (post number 64 for reference) is now in effect or are you guys happy with your group composition.




I apologize for not coming to you when GoldenEagle left; that error will now be rectified.  Write up a character at 21st level; the rest of the creation info is in the first OOC thread.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 26, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> I apologize for not coming to you when GoldenEagle left; that error will now be rectified.  Write up a character at 21st level; the rest of the creation info is in the first OOC thread.



Sweet, Wrahn I've liked many of your idea in the other epic game so I'm rather glad to have you aboard.  

What kind of character do you suspect you will play?


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## Endur (Feb 26, 2004)

Right now we have three fighting type characters and two divine caster type characters.

Big opening for either a rogue-based character or an arcane-based character.

We also could use another fighter-type or divine-type if that's what you want to play.


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## Dalamar (Feb 26, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> of course, I have to do something will on dial up, or at work like now I sometimes I can read my out in town email easier than reading on the board.
> 
> How's Vilya level coming along?



 She's leveled, though the way she's build, there aren't that many good feats for her to choose (Dex-based feats seem to be either for archers or rogues, while fighter feats are for Str-based fighters and barbarians). I ended up picking great Dexterity, which increased my Dex bonus. So now my minimum Init is 14 and I have a +11 bonus (zero ranks) in both Move Silently and Hide before any modifiers from magical equipment.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 26, 2004)

Dalamar said:
			
		

> She's leveled, though the way she's build, there aren't that many good feats for her to choose (Dex-based feats seem to be either for archers or rogues, while fighter feats are for Str-based fighters and barbarians).




Yeah I've seen the same issue with Brystasia in epic feats.  Looks like I'll end up with numerous divine feats instead with divine shield being her next feat.

Have they made an epic progression for the new Dervish yet?  If not you can always think about making one.  I've tossed a few ideas at PA for Heartwarder.  If that’s not you cup of tea you might try and find a way into a shadowdancer.  

I was going to go there with Brystasia but even with the idea of her chases after masterwork artwork in dungeons it seemed a tad wrong character wise.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 26, 2004)

Dalamar, oh I forgot to tell you this but their are true desert elves in WotC's  Unearthed Arcana now.


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## Wrahn (Feb 26, 2004)

Paxus, no problem, I figured you just missed the post (which is why I referenced it)

Does the gold value stay the same or does it raise to the standard for 21st level?

I am thinking Arcane Caster at the moment, I will play with a few ideas and throw something up tonight.

Glad to be aboard


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## Paxus Asclepius (Feb 26, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Paxus, no problem, I figured you just missed the post (which is why I referenced it)
> 
> Does the gold value stay the same or does it raise to the standard for 21st level?
> 
> ...




Standard for 21, though that'll actually still put you a tad behind the others, who have GoldenEagle's share of the loot as well.


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## Dalamar (Feb 26, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Dalamar, oh I forgot to tell you this but their are true desert elves in WotC's  Unearthed Arcana now.



 Yeah, I noticed. But I think I'll stay a generic elf, both because of her background, and because I like that +2 to Listen


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## Wrahn (Feb 27, 2004)

Few more gold to spend, which will mainly go to mundane equipment, I should have cleared it with you first, but I started and couldn't stop.  The Ursinal Guardinal can be found on page 174 and 175 of the Book of Exalted Deeds.  I took levels of Loremaster too (I am a bad player).  Let me know if you have any problems:

Name: Malchari
Race: Male Ursinal Guardinal (Outsider, Good)
Class: ECL 8/Outsider 10/Lore Master 3
Alignment: Neutral Good
Height: 8’2"
Weight: 680lbs
Eyes: Brown
Fur: Golden Brown


Strength 24 (10, +8 Race, +6 Enhancement)
Dexterity 22 (12, +4 Race,+6 Enhancement)
Constitution 30 (13, +6 Race, +5 Inherent, +6 Enhancement)
Intelligence 40 (18, +8 Race, +3 Level, +5 Inherent, +6 Enhancement)
Wisdom 14 (8, +6 Race)
Charisma 32 (13, +8 Race, +5 Inherent, +6 Enhancement)

Hit Points: 201 (10d8+3d4+130)

AC 48 (10, +8 Armor, +13 Natural, +5 Deflection, +6 Dexterity, +6 Shield, +1 Dodge, -1 Size)

Attack: +20 (11 BAB, +7 Strength, +2 Morale)
Damage 1d8 (+7) for claws, 1d8 (+3) for Bite

Saves:

Fort +25 (8 Base +10 Con, +5 Resistance, +2 Morale)
Reflex +21 (8 Base, +6 Dex, +5 Resistance, +2 Morale)
Will +19 (10 Base, +2 Wis, +5 Resistance, +2 Morale)


Racial Abilities

—Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision.
—Immunity to electricity and petrification.
---Acid and Cold Resistance 10
— +4 racial bonus on saves against poison.
—Spell-Like Abilities: At will—Aid, Daylight, Deep Slumber, Detect Evil, Detect Magic, Detect Thoughts, Dimension Door, Dipel Magic, Hold Monster, Magic Circle against Evil (self only), Magic Missile, Polymorph, see invisiblility, Solid Fog, 3/day--Heal, Neutralize Poison, Remove Disease, 1/day Holy Word Caster level 12th.
---Lay on Hands (Su):  This works just like the Paladin Ability healing up to 201 hp per day.
---Improved Grab (Ex): If a creature with both claws on a creature one size smaller than it is, it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required.  The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use one claw to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents.  Each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight.
---Speak with Animals (Sp): Ursinals can mentally communicate with animals as a free action.  This works exactly like Speak with Animals cast by an 8th level Druid but does not require sound.
---Uncanny Dodge (Ex): When on Elysium, ursinals can react to danger before their senses would allow them to do so.  They retain their Dex bonus even when caught flat footed.  They lose this ability on other planes.
—Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish)
—Spell Resistance: 25
—+8 Str, +4 Dex, +6 Con, +8 Int, +6 Wis, +8 Cha
—+13 Natural Armor
—Damage Reduction 10/evil or silver

Class Abilities:

Secret (+1 Dodge Bonus to AC)
Lore (+17 for Lore Check)
Secret (Bonus Feat: Greater Spell Penetration) 

Feats:

Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, Quicken Spell, Skill Focus: Knowledge Skill Arcana, Spell Penetration, (Greater Spell Penetration)

Skills:

Appraise 22 (5 Ranks +15 Int, +2 Morale)
Concentration 28 (16 Ranks, +10 Con, +2 Morale)
Decipher Script 22 (5 Ranks, +15 Int, +2 Morale)
Diplomacy 28 (13 Ranks, +11 Cha, +2 Synergy, +2 Morale)
Gather Information 29 (16 Ranks, +11 Charisma, +2 Morale)
Heal 17 (13 Ranks, +2 Wis, +2 Morale)
Intimidate 26 (13 Ranks, +11 Cha, +2 Morale)
Knowledge (Arcana) 33 (16 Ranks, +15 Int, +2 Morale)
Knowledge (Architecture) 20 (3 Ranks, +15 Int, +2 Morale)
Knowledge (Dungeoneering)20 (3 Ranks, +15 Int, +2 Morale)
Knowledge (History) 20 (3 Ranks, +15 Int, +2 Morale)
Knowledge (Nature) 20 (3 Ranks, +15 Int, +2 Morale)
Knowledge (The Planes) 28 (12 Ranks +15 Int, +2 Morale)
Knowledge (Religion) 20 (3 Ranks, +15 Int, +2 Morale)
Listen 17 (13 Ranks +2 Wis, +2 Morale)
Profession (Artist) 17 (13 Ranks +2 Wis, +2 Morale)
Search 30 (13 Ranks +15 Int, +2 Morale)
Sense Motive 17 (13 Ranks +2 Wis, +2 Morale)
Spellcraft 33 (16 Ranks +15 Int, +2 Morale)
Spot 17 (13 Ranks, +2 Wis, +2 Morale)
Survival 16 (12 Ranks, +2 Wis, +2 Morale)
Use Magic Device 19 (6 Ranks, +11 Cha, +2 Morale)

Spells:
Base DC: 25 Caster Level: 15 
4/8/8/8/7/7/6/5/3

Spellbook
0. Daze, Detect Poison, Flare, Light
1. Charm Person, Color Spray, Eyes of the Avoral (BoED 99), Feather Fall, Hypnotism, Shield, Detect Secret Doors, Alarm 
2. Glitterdust, Invisibility, Locate Object, Touch of Idiocy, Yoke of Mercy (BoED 112), Blindness/Deafness, Web, Scorching Ray, Knock
3. Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Daylight, Elation (BoED 98), Healing Touch, Suggestion, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Displacement, Haste, Slow, Greater Magic Weapon
4. Celestial Brilliance (BoED 94), Confusion, Radiant Fog (BoED 104), Scrying, Fear, Enervation, Greater Invisibility, Secure Shelter
5. Dismissal, Wall of Fire, Teleport, Permancy, Baleful Polymorph, Wall of Force, Sending, Feeblemind, Telepathic Bond, Contact Other Plane
6. Mass Suggestion, Wages of Sin (BoED 111), Analyze Dweomer, Greater Dispelling, Antimagic  Field, Legend Lore, True Seeing, Contingency, Disintegrate, Greater Heroism, Chain Lighting, Spell Turning
7. Reverse Gravity, Forcecage, Finger of Death, Plane Shift, Greater Teleport, Greater Scrying
8. Horrid Wilting, Polymorph Any Object, Polar Ray, Irrestible Dance, Power Word: Stun, Mass Charm Monster, Maze, Mind Blank

Memorized:

0. Daze, Detect Poison, Flare, Light
1. Shield (x2), Eyes of the Avoral (x2), Detect Secret Doors (x2), Charm Person, Alarm, 
2. Scorching Ray (x3), Touch of Idiocy, Yoke of Mercy, Blindness (x2), Web
3. Fireball, Lighting Bolt, Elation, Haste (x2), Slow, Greater Magic Weapon, Displacement
4. Celestial Brilliance, Confusion (x2), Fear, Greater Invisibility (x2), Empowered Scorching Ray
5. Wall of Force, Baleful Polymorph (x2), Empowered Fireball (x2), Teleport, Feeblemind,
6. Disintegrate, Chain Lighting, Spell Turning, Wages of Sin, Analyze Dweomer, Maximized Fireball
7. Reverse Gravity, Finger of Death (x2), Greater Scrying, Forcecage
8. Horrid Wilting, Empowered Disintegrate, Irrestible Dance      

Possessions:

137,500	+5 Book of Constitution
137,500	+5 Book of Intelligence
137,500	+5 Book of Charisma

36,000	Belt of Giant Strength +6
36,000	Gloves of Dexterity +6
36,000	Amulet of Health +6
36,000	Headband of Intellect +6
36,000	Cloak of Charisma +6

64,000	Bracers of Armor +8
50,000	Ring of Protection +5
25,000	Ring of Resistance +5

101,700	+5 Mithral Buckler of Heavy Fortification

12,500	Blessed Book

24,000	Robes of Heroism (Continuous Effect: Heroism)

32,500	Normal Empower Metamagic Rod

2,000	Handy Haversack

5,500	Boots of Striding and Springing

53,475 Scrolls of Polar Ray, Irrestable dance, Power Word Stun, Mass Charm Monster, Maze, Mind Blanl, Plane Shift, Greater Teleport, Greater Scrying, Analyze Dweomer, Greater Dispelling, Antimagic  Field, Legend Lore, True Seeing, Contingency, Disintegrate, Greater Heroism, Chain Lighting, Spell Turning Baleful Polymorph, Wall of Force, Sending, Feeblemind, Telepathic Bond, Contact Other Plane, Fear, Enervation, Greater Invisibility, Secure Shelter, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Displacement, Haste, Slow, Greater Magic Weapon, Fly, Blindness/Deafness, Web, Scorching Ray, Knock, Shield, Detect Secret Doors, and Alarm  (used to scribe in Spellbook)

11,825gp unspent


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## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 27, 2004)

Wrahn, holy cow man!  I'm not sure what you made their...  Looks like a paladain but with real spells plus their arcane...  Very cool.


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## Wrahn (Feb 27, 2004)

Thanks, but as you will see in game, he is what I term as a growth character.  I think being only a 15th level caster in a 21st level game he will have some real problems keeping up with the kind of damage a pure caster is suppose to dish out.  On the other hand he has a ton of spells usable at will, is not some dainty caster that can't take a hit and is an eight foot tall bear-man.  Assuming Paxus has no problem with the Guardinal.  He doesn't really have the BAB to be a "real" fighter though.

This was built like Talariel was (my character in Paxus's other epic game) but with arcane caster in mind. I think he can make a good contribution to the party though as he is waiting to grow into his full power.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 27, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Thanks, but as you will see in game, he is what I term as a growth character.  I think being only a 15th level caster in a 21st level game he will have some real problems keeping up with the kind of damage a pure caster is suppose to dish out.




Yeah that sounds like Brystasia who is something like a 14th caster and hasn't cast a spell successfully yet against an opponent.  I'm slowly going to work her spells to more party friendly.  Her spell DC isn't much better as the favored soul requires so many high abilities it's kind of hard to do.



			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> He doesn't really have the BAB to be a "real" fighter though.




Yeah same here Brystasia can take a few hits but lacks the offense of a real fighter.  Hopefuly you’ll be a better “jack of all trades” then Brystasia is as the only thing she is good for is her saving throws.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Feb 27, 2004)

I hate to rain on your parade, especially after you put all that work into it, but I really don't think the Ursinal is an appropriate PC race, especially in a game like this.  While it's true you may not overshadow any individual character in any individual area, the sum of your abilities dwarfs that of any other character.  I'm afraid I can't allow the Ursinal.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 27, 2004)

PA, is there any chance of the auction happening tonight?


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Feb 27, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> PA, is there any chance of the auction happening tonight?




It should have been done yesterday, but the board was futzy.  Thanks for reminding me; I let things slip my mind too easily.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 27, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> It should have been done yesterday, but the board was futzy.  Thanks for reminding me; I let things slip my mind too easily.



It happens and that's what I'm here for.  Any chance that the bed and bedding ends up in the hand of the Sunite church?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 27, 2004)

PA, I'm curious of something and not complaining.  In my epic level handbook pg 23 it shows that 975,000 is the character wealth at level 21.

The wealth at 20th is: 760,000

That’s: 215,000 

We only got 130,000 each from the auction.  (Noted I liquidated the Platinum also.)

Are the weapons worth that much? (425,000 GP)

Anyhow not trying to power game or anything, so if you can't answer you can't answer but you did say we would be getting slightly more than the norm.

Even with Brystasia not in the math cause she donated her share to Sune the others would "only" be getting 160,000 GP.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Feb 27, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> PA, I'm curious of something and not complaining.  In my epic level handbook pg 23 it shows that 975,000 is the character wealth at level 21.
> 
> The wealth at 20th is: 760,000
> 
> ...




Between the sword and the Seer's accumulated magical goodies, that should be exactly the right amount; I'd hate to think I dropped a digit, after spending all that time rolling up random treasures.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 27, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Between the sword and the Seer's accumulated magical goodies, that should be exactly the right amount; I'd hate to think I dropped a digit, after spending all that time rolling up random treasures.



No your golden I forgot the magical goodies...  I can find it later if you did tell us but did we get a list of what was what?


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Feb 27, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> No your golden I forgot the magical goodies...  I can find it later if you did tell us but did we get a list of what was what?




Not yet.  No one's had them Identified.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 27, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Not yet.  No one's had them Identified.



Okay, I'll edit my post to reflect this...  Brystasia will ask Sandorel to help her in this project.  (edited)

Also who won the bed and bedding?


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Feb 27, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Okay, I'll edit my post to reflect this...  Brystasia will ask Sandorel to help her in this project.  (edited)
> 
> Also who won the bed and bedding?




Someone who didn't belong to the order got the bed itself; the phoenix-feather quilt was purchased by the Temple.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 27, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Someone who didn't belong to the order got the bed itself; the phoenix-feather quilt was purchased by the Temple.



Okay,   That was edited in also.


----------



## Wrahn (Feb 27, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> I hate to rain on your parade, especially after you put all that work into it, but I really don't think the Ursinal is an appropriate PC race, especially in a game like this.  While it's true you may not overshadow any individual character in any individual area, the sum of your abilities dwarfs that of any other character.  I'm afraid I can't allow the Ursinal.




Doh!  I was thinking the spell like abilities were a little much.  My fault for not checking with you first.  It will take a little longer to get the Wizard fleshed out, maybe tomorrow I can get something up.  (Spells are a pain)  On the otherhand have you looked at the racial paragons from the Unearthed Arcana?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 27, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> On the otherhand have you looked at the racial paragons from the Unearthed Arcana?




I know I'm not PA but I also know that PA doesn't have Unearthed Arcana.   I do like them myself though.  Anyhow you need to get the rules to PA if you’re really want to try one.  (Again no guarantee that he will approve.)

I wouldn't mind seeing an epic game ghasalt (spell?) characters the ones that have two classes and you take the best from both worlds.    

Endur, your insanely crazy but that’s an hell of an original idea.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Feb 27, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> I know I'm not PA but I also know that PA doesn't have Unearthed Arcana.   I do like them myself though.  Anyhow you need to get the rules to PA if you’re really want to try one.  (Again no guarantee that he will approve.)
> 
> I wouldn't mind seeing an epic game ghasalt (spell?) characters the ones that have two classes and you take the best from both worlds.
> 
> Endur, your insanely crazy but that’s an hell of an original idea.




If I ever run a gestalt game, I'd use the Arcana Unearthed game from Monte Cook; D&D classes just aren't flavorful enough.

I say it at the beginning of every thread, and repeat it quite often: I'll be glad to look at any rules you'd like to try, but, as Brother Shatterstone said, I don't own Unearthed Arcana.  You'd have to email me with any details.


----------



## Velenne (Feb 27, 2004)

Serpenteye,

Legend Lore used to be a Cleric spell but I guess it's not anymore.  I suppose the only thing left is to use the non-XP-draining version of Miracle to do an Analyze Dweomer.  Or you could be a 1st level wizard to cast Identify.


----------



## Serpenteye (Feb 27, 2004)

Velenne said:
			
		

> Serpenteye,
> 
> Legend Lore used to be a Cleric spell but I guess it's not anymore.  I suppose the only thing left is to use the non-XP-draining version of Miracle to do an Analyze Dweomer.  Or you could be a 1st level wizard to cast Identify.




I think Paxus house ruled that Miracle couldn't be used to replicate other spells.


----------



## Wrahn (Feb 27, 2004)

Or you could hire Meekel, the Mighty, gnome extroidnaire and general knowledgable guy.  Almost done with the creation process and have enough money left over to buy some non-standard spells.  Paxus, what books do you own?  I am interested in some Eldritch Might stuff.

Name: Meekel Brokenwheel
Race: Male Gnome
Class: Wizard 10/Loremaster 11
Alignment: Neutral Good
Height: 3’6”
Weight: 45lbs
Eyes: Brown
Hair: Brown, thinning
Complexion: Pale 


Strength *12* (9, -2 Race, +5 Enhancement)
Dexterity *20* (14, +6 Enhancement)
Constitution *26* (13, +2 Race, +5 Inherent, +6 Enhancement)
Intelligence *34* (18, +5 Level, +5 Inherent, +6 Enhancement)
Wisdom *10* (10)
Charisma *10* (10)

Hit Points: *233* (21d4 +169)

AC *41* (10, +8 Armor, +5 Natural, +5 Deflection, +5 Dexterity, +6 Shield, +1 Dodge, +1 Size)

Attack: *+15* (10 BAB, +1 Strength, +1 Unnamed, +1 Epic, +2 Morale)
Damage 

Saves:

Fort *+22* (6 Base +8 Con, +5 Resistance, +1 Luck, +2 Morale)
Reflex *+21* (6 Base, +5 Dex, +5 Resistance, +2 Unnamed, +1 Luck, +2 Morale)
Will *+24* (14 Base, +5 Resistance, +2 Unnamed, +1 Luck, +2 Morale)


Racial Abilities

+2 Constitution, –2 Strength.
Small: As a Small creature, a gnome gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but he uses smaller weapons than humans use, and his lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character.
Gnome base land speed is 20 feet.
Low-Light Vision: A gnome can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
Weapon Familiarity: Gnomes may treat gnome hooked hammers as martial weapons rather than exotic weapons.
+2 racial bonus on saving throws against illusions.
Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against illusion spells cast by gnomes. This adjustment stacks with those from similar effects.
+1 racial bonus on attack rolls against kobolds and goblinoids.
+4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type. Any time a creature loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, such as when it’s caught flat-footed, it loses its dodge bonus, too.
+2 racial bonus on Listen checks.
+2 racial bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks.
Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—speak with animals (burrowing mammal only, duration 1 minute).dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation. Caster level 1st; save DC 10

Class Abilities:

Summon Familiar
Bonus Feat: Scribe Scroll
Bonus Feat: Empower Spell
Bonus Feat: Quicken Spell
Secret (+2 to Reflex Saves)
Secret (+2 to Will Saves)
Secret (+1 to Attack Rolls)
Secret (+1 Dodge Bonus to AC)
Secret (Bonus Feat: Greater Spell Penetration) 
Lore (+25 for Lore Check)
2 Bonus Languages (Infernal and Abyssal)
Greater Lore: At 6th level, a loremaster gains the ability to understand magic items, as with the identify spell.
True Lore: At 10th level, once per day a loremaster can use his knowledge to gain the effect of a legend lore spell or an analyze dweomer spell

Languages:

Common, Gnome, Draconic, Elven, Goblin, Orc, (Infernal, Abyssal)

Feats:

Spell Casting Prodigy, Chain Spell, Skill Focus: Knowledge Skill Arcana, Maximize Spell, Spell Penetration, Craft Rod, Craft Wondrous Item, (Greater Spell Penetration, Empower Spell, Quicken Spell, Scribe Scroll), Epic: Multispell

Skills:

Appraise *25* (10 Ranks +12 Int, +1 Luck, +2 Morale)
Concentration *35* (24 Ranks +8 Con, +1 Luck, +2 Morale)
Craft (Drawing) *28* (13 Ranks, +12 Int, +1 Luck, +2 Morale)
Decipher Script *28* (13 Ranks, +12 Int, +1 Luck, +2 Morale)
Gather Information *27* (24 Ranks, +1 Luck, +2 Morale)
Knowledge (Arcana) *42* (24 Ranks, +12 Int, +3 Skill Focus, +1 Luck, +2 Morale)
Knowledge (The Planes) *28* (13 Ranks, +12 Int, +1 Luck, +2 Morale)
Knowledge (History) *20* (5 Ranks +12 Int, +1 Luck, +2 Morale)
Perform (Story Telling) *18* (15 Ranks, +1 Luck, +2 Morale)
Spellcraft *39* (24 Ranks +12 Int, +1 Luck, +2 Morale)
Use Magic Device *27* (24 Ranks, +1 Luck, +2 Morale)


Spells:
Base DC: *25* Caster Level: *21* 
4/8/7/7/7/7/6/6/6/6

Spellbook:

All spells in the player’s handbook and

1. Silent Sound(BoEM1),Creature Loresigt (BoEM2), Object Loresight (BoEM2), Know Protections (MoF), Spirit Worm (MoF) 
2. Icebolt(BoEM1), Enhance Magic Flow(BoEM1). Precise Vision(BoEM1), Aganazzar's Scorcher (FRCS), Create Magic Tatoo (FRCS)  
3. Missive Token (BoEM2), Amanuensis (MoF), Analyze Portal (FRCS), Blindsight (SS)
4. Greater Mark of Water (BoEM1), Zone of Speed (BoEM1), Greater Magic Flow (BoEM1), Thief of Spells(BoEM2), Darsoon's Potion (MoF), Explosive Cascade (MoF), Spell Enhancer (MoF), 
5. Simbul's Spell Matrix (MoF), Wall of Limbs (SS)
6. Gate Seal (FRCS)
7. Mass Fly (BoEM1), Spell Mastery(BoEM2), Window to Elsewhere(BoEM3), Gemjump (MoF), Simbul's Spell Sequencer (MoF), Simbul's Synostodweomer (MoF), Earth Reaver (SS), Improved Blindsight (SS)
8. Mark of Death (BoEM1), Primal Release (BoEM1), Nybor's Wrathful Castigation (MoF), Stalking Spell (SS)
9. Squamous Pulse(BoEM2), Doorway to Elsewhere(BoEM3), Genesis (ELH), Elminsters Efflugent Epurations (MoF), Simbul's Spell Trigger (MoF)


Spells Memorized

0.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.

Possessions:

82,500	+5 Book of Constitution*
82,500	+5 Book of Intelligence*


15,000	Belt of Giant Strength +5*
21,600	Gloves of Dexterity +6*
21,600	Vest of Health +6*
21,600	Headband of Intellect +6*


38,400	Bracers of Armor +8*
50,000	Ring of Protection +5
60,000	Meekel's Cloak of the Magic Flow:  This cloak manipulates magic in such a way that it enhances a caster's spells as well as protecting the wearer from other's magic (As Arcane Amulet and Cloak of Resistence +5)*
30,000	Amulet of Natural Armor +5*
750	Scroll: Barkskin (Caster Level: 15) used

101,700	+5 Mithral Buckler of Heavy Fortification

15,000	Blessed Book (x2)*

81,050	All the spells from the players handbook copied from others spellbooks at 50gp per level (Minus the spells gotten for free when I went up levels), plus the spells listed in the Spellbook

204,000	Greater Metamagic Rod of Quickening* (x2)
21,000	Lesser Metamagic Rod of Quickening*
72,900	Greater Metamagic Rod of Maximize*

27,000	Robes of Heroism (Continuous Effect: Heroism)*

12,000	Luckstone*
25	Scroll: Divine Favor (used)

3,300	Boots of Striding and Springing*

1,200	Handy Haversack*

1,925 gps unspent.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 27, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> If I ever run a gestalt game, I'd use the Arcana Unearthed game from Monte Cook; D&D classes just aren't flavorful enough.




Sad but true I have this book but all I've done is flip through it once or twice.  I'm not sure how D&D classes aren't favorable enough though.  I wouldn't mind taking a favored soul/paladin to epic levels in a gestalt game.   Of course my ultimate combination would be Green Ronin's Unholy warrior/Assassin combination.  That would be such an ugly and nasty character. 

PA you wouldn’t mind if we all redesigned are characters in mid stride would you?


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Feb 27, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Sad but true I have this book but all I've done is flip through it once or twice.  I'm not sure how D&D classes aren't favorable enough though.  I wouldn't mind taking a favored soul/paladin to epic levels in a gestalt game.   Of course my ultimate combination would be Green Ronin's Unholy warrior/Assassin combination.  That would be such an ugly and nasty character.
> 
> PA you wouldn’t mind if we all redesigned are characters in mid stride would you?




The problem with D&D classes is that they just aren't inherently cool.  A fighter hits people with things.  A barbarian hits people with things, but he does it when he's angry.  A ranger hits people with things and likes nature.  I'm not saying that D&D characters have no personality, just that the personality can't be derived solely, or even primarily, from the build.  A snake totem warrior/unfettered, though, has inherent flavor, and the greenbond/champion of death is just an awesome concept, that only gestalt characters will allow an effective build of.


----------



## Wrahn (Feb 27, 2004)

Ultimately that is why all games should be run in HERO system 



			
				3.5 SRD said:
			
		

> Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).




Does this mean if I have a scroll of barkskin and a sufficiently high use magic device, I could make an amulet of natural armor?


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Feb 27, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Does this mean if I have a scroll of barkskin and a sufficiently high use magic device, I could make an amulet of natural armor?




That it does, though I would require that UMD to have a high enough modifier to entail no risk of failure when taking 10.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 27, 2004)

PA, well I'll give AU a look through since I'm home now having survived another week with Uncle Sam. 

Before I post I would like to know the size of the Gryphon chick.  (I can’t even find a MM entry.)

Endur, did Conan go to the auction in the morning?  None of your posts had said so one way or another. 

I'm trying to keep some semblance of a timetable...  Did Conan have enough time to find a Gryphon before Sandorel and Brystasia went into town to identify objects or not or did he get back before they left and just in time to miss the intimate moment.

Velenne, BTW I will not for get to incorporate your checking for the night this time.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 27, 2004)

BTW: anyone got a clue who Mystic_pyro is and why he is posting in are IC forum?


----------



## Endur (Feb 27, 2004)

I have no idea.  If the auction took place all day, I was probably in back for the end of it.  If the auction took place only in the morning, I was probably still looking for something to buy.  

I'm guessing that Conan returned to the temple in the afternoon.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 27, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> I have no idea.  If the auction took place all day, I was probably in back for the end of it.  If the auction took place only in the morning, I was probably still looking for something to buy.




Aye, so you didn't go.   I'll not comment on your post till I see how long the auction took.  You might be back before Sandorel and Brystasia leave for town.  I guess it will depend upon the answer from PA.



			
				Endur said:
			
		

> I'm guessing that Conan returned to the temple in the afternoon.




That sounds reasonable.  Hopefuly Brystasia doesn't keep you waiting.


----------



## Velenne (Feb 27, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> BTW: anyone got a clue who Mystic_pyro is and why he is posting in are IC forum?




No clue but I reported the post and hopefully it'll be deleted.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 27, 2004)

Velenne said:
			
		

> No clue but I reported the post and hopefully it'll be deleted.



aye, thanks, hopefully creamsteak can get to it soon... I'm pretty sure that garyh is long gone.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 27, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> aye, thanks, hopefully creamsteak can get to it soon...



He's quick it’s already gone.


----------



## Velenne (Feb 27, 2004)

Paxus,

Not sure how to work this, but there's two more things I'd like to have to complete my concept.

1- Ring of Invisibility or equivalent item.  Nice liquid Predator effect.

2- Greater Circlet of Blasting - a shoulder-mounted variety that is usable at will.  Total price I figure to be 118,800 (5x the DMG price for 1/day).


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Feb 28, 2004)

Velenne said:
			
		

> Paxus,
> 
> Not sure how to work this, but there's two more things I'd like to have to complete my concept.
> 
> ...




The ring of invisibility can probably be purchased with a decent Gather Information check, or a small commission to whoever locates a buyer for you.  The second item would be much harder to acquire; it'd have to take up a slot, probably the mantle slot (otherwise it's double cost, which bumps it into epic).  You'd likely need to commission it from an artificer.


----------



## Serpenteye (Feb 28, 2004)

Do we know of any reasonable stocked and priced magic item shoppes, anywhere in the multiverse?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 28, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> The ring of invisibility can probably be purchased with a decent Gather Information check, or a small commission to whoever locates a buyer for you.




If you used your in door voice and ask Brystasia she would probably be able to help out.

PA are you going to post anything for the magic college?


----------



## Velenne (Feb 28, 2004)

The Hunter has detailed out its specifications (for both ring and circlet); they are to be incorperated into his existing armor.  In fact, since the Armor is already intelligent, I'm wondering if you won't let me "upgrade" its intellect to allow for these abilities.  

The Invis might work like the "Detect Thought at will" (DMG p.270), and cost +44,000, while the Circlet could work like the Special Purpose power: Mass Inflict and cost +81,000.  Ancestral Relic from the "Book of Exalted Deeds" has a mechanic wherein the character spends a day per 1,000gp of the item in meditation to awaken these new powers.  Do you think this would fit Antillis?


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Feb 28, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Do we know of any reasonable stocked and priced magic item shoppes, anywhere in the multiverse?




There are a few in Waterdeep, a handful in Sigil, etc.  Magic item shops tend to sell mostly potions, scrolls, and wands, some basic weapons and armor, and the rest is odd stuff.  Non-consumable items aren't made in bulk quantities; they are either custom jobs or sold items.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 28, 2004)

Velenne, why you are here I'm curious...  What language does your hunter speak?


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Feb 28, 2004)

Velenne said:
			
		

> The Hunter has detailed out its specifications (for both ring and circlet); they are to be incorperated into his existing armor.  In fact, since the Armor is already intelligent, I'm wondering if you won't let me "upgrade" its intellect to allow for these abilities.
> 
> The Invis might work like the "Detect Thought at will" (DMG p.270), and cost +44,000, while the Circlet could work like the Special Purpose power: Mass Inflict and cost +81,000.  Ancestral Relic from the "Book of Exalted Deeds" has a mechanic wherein the character spends a day per 1,000gp of the item in meditation to awaken these new powers.  Do you think this would fit Antillis?




Do you want them to take up slots, or to be part of the armor slot?  If the latter, that does increase the cost.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Feb 28, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> PA are you going to post anything for the magic college?




I'll let Wrahn introduce his character there; that seems the best place to do so.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 28, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> I'll let Wrahn introduce his character there; that seems the best place to do so.




Sweet, I'll get us to the college then. 

Wrahn, since where both powerful characters in the same city I imagine we know each other in at least passing...  Would you agree?


----------



## Velenne (Feb 28, 2004)

It's fine if they take up slots- I was kind of expecting it.

<EDIT: Xills speak Infernal (my mistake in the character sheet; I just looked) which is likely his native language and the language the suit understands.  He can speak Common, Elven, and Celestial in addition to these and is literate.  However, somewhere along the line during his career he was converted to a more neutral outlook than his kin and thus his ostrisization.  

Perhaps Xill is the language the suit was built to understand and thus he speaks it so has not to have to remove his faceplate and scare people. >


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 28, 2004)

Velenne said:
			
		

> Xills speak Infernal (my mistake in the character sheet; I just looked)



Darn I don't know that one!  I guess your going to make Brystasia deaf after all. 

I did notice one other mistake on your character sheet.  You paid for literary when it comes free when you multiclass out of barbarian.   (Yeah I know very minor and what's the guy with animal affinity on his character sheet casting stones for...  )

PA I looked through AU and I must admit I think their is a number of great ideas for classes in their but I also think that the ones from the players handbook besides paladin* are good also.  A class is simply what the player makes out of it.

I love paladins but paladins shouldn't just be lawful good and every deity should have their own divine warriors.


----------



## Wrahn (Feb 28, 2004)

Paxus,

This is the list of spells I am interested in from the Various Books of Eldritch Might.

BOEM1
Mark of Death8
Mantle of Egregious Might8
Primal Release8
Mass Fly7
Greater Magic Flow4
Zone of Speed4
Greater Mark of Water4
Enhance Magic Flow2
Precise Vision2
Icebolt2
Silent Sound1

BOEM2
Squamous Pulse9
Spell Mastery7
Thief of Spells4
Missive Token3
Extended Charge3
Creature Loresigt1
Object Loresight1

BOEM3

Doorway to Elsewhere9
Window to Elsewhere7

oh and Genesis from the epic level handbook

Magic of Faerun and the Forgotten Realms guide is next

Do you have any of the relics and rituals books?
I know you don't have Savage Species, so if there is anything in there I want I will send it to you via email

BS,

Meekel is kind of a wanderer, he constantly looking for new and interesting things.  He is more than likely not native to Waterdeep, but, considering Waterdeep has lots of interesting things in it, he may have been here for a while.

He has a habit of hanging around adventurers and recording the tales they tell, and given enough alcohol has been know to tell a few of his own.  He rarely if ever shows his power in normal circumstances, so I doubt that he would have a great reputation of a powerful mage, but you may know him from one of the inns that adventurers frequent as a teller of tall tales and a mage of some small skill.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 28, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> He has a habit of hanging around adventurers and recording the tales they tell, and given enough alcohol has been know to tell a few of his own.  He rarely if ever shows his power in normal circumstances, so I doubt that he would have a great reputation of a powerful mage, but you may know him from one of the inns that adventurers frequent as a teller of tall tales and a mage of some small skill.



Well Brystasia is probably kind of famous in Waterdeep...   That inherent 30 Charisma has drawn a number of people out of the woodwork.   Wow knows maybe she even hit favored daughter status by now or at least adopted daughter as she isn’t native to Waterdeep either.  I don't think I've seen an inherent ability in a non-deity that high.   The racial information short of implies this also.

 If you want to read the racial information its in Dragon 311 (?) or I can email it to you.

So far I like what you have very nice.   If you want to have meet Brystasia in the past just run with it and I’ll fallow okay?


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Feb 28, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Paxus,
> 
> This is the list of spells I am interested in from the Various Books of Eldritch Might.
> 
> ...




No Mantle of Egregious Might.  Mark of Death deals 10 points of damage per level, max 200, on a failed save.  Mass Fly has duration 1 min/level.  For some reason, Acrobat Reader refuses to read page 23 of the BoEM 1, so you'll need to email me Zone of Speed.

No Extended Charge. Squamous Pulse has Target: one creature with natural armor.

Genesis does not allow you to create time traits other than normal, or magic-enhancing traits.

Otherwise, all spells are acceptable as is.


----------



## Endur (Feb 28, 2004)

I'm going to scale back my surfing of the board, so don't be surprised if several days or a week goes by without my posting.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 28, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> I'm going to scale back my surfing of the board, so don't be surprised if several days or a week goes by without my posting.



Ah should I say time line be darned and post Brystasia reaction to the gift?


----------



## Serpenteye (Feb 28, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> I'm going to scale back my surfing of the board, so don't be surprised if several days or a week goes by without my posting.




I'm sorry to see you leave, and if I share some of the responsibility for causing your desicion I appologize. I hope to see you around again soon.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 28, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> I'm sorry to see you leave, and if I share some of the responsibility for causing your desicion I appologize. I hope to see you around again soon.



Serpenteye, his post in the OOC of the Spider Queen covered everything in more detail.  With the DM, and most of the players, of this game in that game he probably figured he didn't need to repeat everything.

Anyhow Endur is traveling for like two weeks so I don’t see a reason for anything other than Conan will being quite and brooding but very much alive in part of the party.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 29, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> This is the list of spells I am interested in from the Various Books of Eldritch Might.




Hey speaking of which I have both of the 3.5 books now.  FedEx delivered the Hollow Might this morning.  If either of you two need the 3.5 variants for these spells please let me know.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Feb 29, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Hey speaking of which I have both of the 3.5 books now.  FedEx delivered the Hollow Might this morning.  If either of you two need the 3.5 variants for these spells please let me know.




Actually, if you could show me the 3.5 variants of every spell I nixed or modified, that'd be very helpful (though time-consuming).


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 29, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> that'd be very helpful (though time-consuming).



Well you know me, I have nothing but time to consume.  In all honesty I'm about to kick of about 14 megs of download so its no big deal at all.  Besides I’m sure I’ve sent you more than a few spells. 

If you could chop your nixes just to include the spell names that would make it easier for me to make sure I don't miss any. 

Any chance you'll let me convert some of Brystasia near unusable offensive spells to other spells without making me wait till I take a level in fallen soul, or gain a caster level?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 29, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> If you could chop your nixes just to include the spell names that would make it easier for me to make sure I don't miss any.




Okay you obviously took to long to chop up and make a list.    

Heres what was found:
Mantle of Egregious Might
Mark of Death  
Fly, Mass  
Zone of Speed
Squamous Pulse

Here's what was not found:
Genesis

Was not done cause it was vetoed:
Mantle of Egregious Might

Email sent. 

Wrahn, if you want a copy of these as 3.5 spells please email me.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 29, 2004)

Well I have good news. 

It looks like I'm swapping feats also. 

Since not everyone has all the books I do, I have close to 50 books; I figure I should show it to everyone. Anyhow the feat is from Mongooses' Encyclopedia Arcane: Enchantment

Stunning Beauty 
[Enchantment]

Your magical powers of seduction and attraction have become so subconscious, they occur constantly. Those who see you are often taken aback, hesitating a few moments before acting against you. 

Prerequisites: Fair Visage or Charisma 18+, 5 + ranks in Bluff.

Benefit: This feat affects only beings that would be attracted to you (i.e. same or similar race, sexually attracted, etc. The Games Master's discretion has final say in whether this feat applies.)

Any being who tries to target you with an attack or spell during a surprise round loses the ability to act and must wait to do so until normal initiative is rolled. During normal initiative, if you have not yet acted in a given round when someone targets you with a spell or attack he must delay his initiative until it matches yours.


Anyhow it's been house ruled to include a Will save DC (10+1/2 HD + Cha mod) to resists. (DC 29)

Oh I'm losing improve trip for this.


----------



## Serpenteye (Feb 29, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Oh I'm losing improve trip for this.




A good trade, in my oppinion, and it suits her perfectly.

--
Btw, Paxus, Brother; Sandorel and Brystasia do carry all the unidentified magical items in the party, right? The sword, the clawed armour, the manacles and the key? Or were they so intoxicated by each others that they forgot why they were going to the academy? 

--

Is it ok to make all Sandorel's followers clerics of his religion and have them live gathered in a small monastery in the outlands? I'm considering befriending a Sorcerer or Wizard for a cohort, what would that require? The nature of a pbp-game makes it unpractical to go around chatting with a lot of strangers, and I wouldn't want to take too much time away from the rest of the party.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 29, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> A good trade, in my oppinion, and it suits her perfectly.



I agree and obviously so does PA. 



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Btw, Paxus, Brother; Sandorel and Brystasia do carry all the unidentified magical items in the party, right?




No the sword is at the temple of Gond as Conan took it their.  The armor Brystasia isn't touching as it's ugly and makes her apprehensive.


----------



## Serpenteye (Feb 29, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> No the sword is at the temple of Gond as Conan took it their.  The armor Brystasia isn't touching as it's ugly and makes her apprehensive.




So we're just there to make an appointment to have some items identified..?


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Feb 29, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Is it ok to make all Sandorel's followers clerics of his religion and have them live gathered in a small monastery in the outlands? I'm considering befriending a Sorcerer or Wizard for a cohort, what would that require? The nature of a pbp-game makes it unpractical to go around chatting with a lot of strangers, and I wouldn't want to take too much time away from the rest of the party.




Yes, but "small monastery" is a euphemism for "a collection of cottages and a few gardens."  Anything fancier would take some cash of your own to build (though the Landlord feat would give you a pretty penny to work with at your level).


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 29, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> So we're just there to make an appointment to have some items identified..?



Well hopefully not, I imagine that they will be falling all over themselves trying to help Brystasia.  

I’m sure there is some official pull that she could try to use but I doubt it would work with a grumpy mage.  Hopefuly they will help out a Sunites out of respected between their two organizations.

Also I believe we are to meet Warhn's character here.


----------



## Wrahn (Mar 1, 2004)

Okay, except for spells memorized I am ready to go.  So whenever you are ready Mr. DM (assuming everything on Meekel meets with your approval)


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 1, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Also I believe we are to meet Warhn's character here.




PA are we waiting for Warhn now?   

If so Wrahn please go here: If so Wrahn please go here: link and post your character introduction and doing the magic identification.  please.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 1, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> So whenever you are ready Mr. DM (assuming everything on Meekel meets with your approval)



PA been ready for you to post in character, no biggy mind you, I'm willing to assume that if their is any issues their minor and will not change your character any for the roll playing part. 

But I'm more willing to assume as I have like four posts I need to make after we get done with the identify the magical items. 

Also if you need 3.5 version of those spells please email me: ftn4life@earthlink.net


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 1, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Okay, except for spells memorized I am ready to go.  So whenever you are ready Mr. DM (assuming everything on Meekel meets with your approval)




Everything looks good; while the Belt of Giant Strength +5 is a touch unorthodox, it's not specifically forbidden that I'm aware of, and you did make it yourself, so I'll let it go.  As Brother S said, I was hoping you'd introduce yourself; feel free to hijack the librarian as necessary for your posting.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 1, 2004)

Wrahn, I do have one question of you.  What the age of Mr. Brokenwheel? 

( I'm assuming much older than Brystasia but I would like to know for sure.  )

BTW: Nice post.


----------



## Wrahn (Mar 1, 2004)

I am placing him around 92 (that is about 33 in human years), though it may be hard to tell.

and thank you, sorry it took so long (weekends, in general are pretty hectic for me)


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 1, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> I am placing him around 92 (that is about 33 in human years), though it may be hard to tell.




Cool, I assumed right enough then. 



			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> and thank you, sorry it took so long (weekends, in general are pretty hectic for me)



Hey don't worry about it and you can ignore me for the most part I'm just cracking the whip to keep the game flowing... 

You know I just noticed something...  your in the "other" game.  For the record I don't play half-nymph's that often....  You just happen to me in both games…


----------



## Wrahn (Mar 1, 2004)

> You know I just noticed something... your in the "other" game. For the record I don't play half-nymph's that often.... You just happen to me in both games…




Yeah, suuuure.   

Well I assume that you play a bugbear someplace, though truthfully, I think I would prefer looking at the half-nymph rather than the bugbear for your avatar (though the name Brother Shatterstone with a picture of a good looking woman underneath may lead to some confusion.)


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 1, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Well I assume that you play a bugbear someplace, though truthfully, I think I would prefer looking at the half-nymph rather than the bugbear for your avatar




Actually yes I do play a bugbear also, but it has nothing to do with the avatar, as that's just a self-portrait. 

As for a half-nymph avatar I don't think so...  It's really not me.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 2, 2004)

Seeing the items I can honestly say there is nothing their that Brystasia wants. 

Sell them all in my mind.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 2, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Seeing the items I can honestly say there is nothing their that Brystasia wants.
> 
> Sell them all in my mind.




The fact that there's only one thing you can use that you don't have a better version of doesn't play a part in that, does it?  I'm surprised you're eager to sell off the rod of absorption, though.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 2, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> The fact that there's only one thing you can use that you don't have a better version of doesn't play a part in that, does it?



Out of character, oh yeah what do I need that junk for.   I need the money. 

In character: Brystasia would be more than willing to let anyone have something that would help them without even considering the monetary cost and I suspect that is what we should and will do.



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> I'm surprised you're eager to sell off the rod of absorption, though.



Okay yeah it could indeed be useful...


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 2, 2004)

PS PA: I'm ready to go shopping.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 2, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Well on secound thought Brystaisa would have a use for the rod.




Yes.  And to be clear, we're talking about powering spells.  That's all.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 2, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Yes.  And to be clear, we're talking about powering spells.  That's all.



huh?


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 2, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> huh?




The innuendo was unintentional, then?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 2, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> The innuendo was unintentional, then?



oops!!!! 

Yeah it was.     Last time I read and type at the same time...  I fix that now.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 2, 2004)

Serpenteye, hey I'll edit my previous post about Brystasia heading off by herself...  I must admit that Sanderol is insane to fallow her when she goes shopping but his company should be enjoyable. 

I don’t know why I suggested selling them so quickly like that in character…  I must have been really distracted last night.


----------



## Endur (Mar 2, 2004)

OOC: Since the Cimmerian doesn't have any magic items, he could certainly use all of the magic items (other than the staff, spellbooks, and scrolls of course).

However, I'm not sure that he would at all be interested in any magic item the seer would wield.  Even something like the gauntlets of dextertity, which are obviously useful, might be dainty or demon-black.  Even if your gnome claims they are not cursed, the Cimmerian would be hesitant to use something with a bad smell to it.

Since the Sword was chained by the Seer, that makes it more like a prisoner, and more likely to be something the Cimmerian would be interested in.

Selling/Not-selling the items is not something the Cimmerian is really concerned about.  Its not like he is going to ever use money to buy a magic item.  

Buy a castle or an army, maybe.  But spend hard-earned gold on Magic???  



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Seeing the items I can honestly say there is nothing their that Brystasia wants.
> 
> Sell them all in my mind.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 2, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Since the Sword was chained by the Seer, that makes it more like a prisoner, and more likely to be something the Cimmerian would be interested in.




Well the gloves could always be considered a gift...  

The sword I think we have all agreed would become Conan’s. 

PS thanks for not quoting my stupidity. 

Also I do not think we took the armor...  Brystasia would not have carried it as it's obviously evil and ugly to boot.


----------



## Serpenteye (Mar 2, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Serpenteye, hey I'll edit my previous post about Brystasia heading off by herself...  I must admit that Sanderol is insane to fallow her when she goes shopping but his company should be enjoyable.




It won't be as bad as that (I hope). At least he can be sure to see something he likes.


----------



## Serpenteye (Mar 2, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Also I do not think we took the armor...  Brystasia would not have carried it as it's obviously evil and ugly to boot.




Perhaps, but Sandorel would have no reason to leave it behind. He could carry it disassembled in his Haversack (speaking of which, I really need a portable hole or three).


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 2, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> It won't be as bad as that (I hope). At least he can be sure to see something he likes.



Maybe.


----------



## Dalamar (Mar 2, 2004)

Vilya will be happy to have the Ring of Protection as soon as somebody informs her that we have one in our possession.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 2, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Perhaps, but Sandorel would have no reason to leave it behind. He could carry it disassembled in his Haversack (speaking of which, I really need a portable hole or three).



Okay it can come but realize that Brystasia will not touch it and that you have to feed, water, and walk it.  

Dalamar, your more than welcome to it but you'll have a big chuck of money that you would be able to get better.  (Or so I imagine.)


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 3, 2004)

I'm sure at least one of you is curious so here’s the weapon that Brystasia is getting commissioned.

In the hands of anyone:
Aurorum Elven Thinblade +2 that grants proficiency with this exotic weapon.

Aurorum is from the book of exalted deeds and simply cannot be destroyed.  When sundered the pieces can be placed back together to form the weapon again.

You know theirs a quest just in that material...

Anyhow in the hands of a Sunite. (aka Brystasia)
Keen Aurorum Flaming Burst Elven Thinblade +5 (total) that also gives an enchantment Bonus +6 to Charisma.


----------



## Dalamar (Mar 3, 2004)

I'll be spending that cash to update my Gloves of Dexterity to Epic status (I think we have enough cash). Increased Initiative, AC and Attacks, not to mention Hide, MS, Sleight of Hand and Tumble


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## Wrahn (Mar 3, 2004)

I am unsure how much money you all have but I do know that epic items are EXPENSIVE.

Case in point, Gloves of Dexterity +6 being upgraded to Gloves of Epic Dexterity +8 costs 640,000 (bonus squared x1000 (base forumula) x10 (for epic item)) - 36,000 (for the Gloves of dexterity) = 604,000 and requires 60 days to make.  It also requires an epic spell caster with the craft epic wondrous item epic feat.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 3, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> I am unsure how much money you all have but I do know that epic items are EXPENSIVE.



Indeed they are and from what I've been told your money will be enough of an increase to give you the normal money for a 21 level character, with maybe a tad more to spend as we lost GE.




			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> 604,000 and requires 60 days to make.




Wrahn are you sure about the number of days needed?  My sword needs like a 150 days or something like that...  Maybe my math is wrong, it is 1,000 a day right?


----------



## Wrahn (Mar 3, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Wrahn are you sure about the number of days needed?  My sword needs like a 150 days or something like that...  Maybe my math is wrong, it is 1,000 a day right?




Epic items are made at the rate of 10,000gps a day (to the best of my recollection).  Otherwise it would take a loooong time to make some of the items (time numbering in decades).  There is an epic prestige class that makes items even faster on WotC's site though.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 3, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Epic items are made at the rate of 10,000gps a day (to the best of my recollection).




Does any epic creator make non-epic level items quicker then?


----------



## Wrahn (Mar 3, 2004)

I believe it specifies Epic items, but I could be wrong about that, since I don't have my rules here with me.


----------



## Dalamar (Mar 3, 2004)

Hmm... Maybe I should sometimes check stuff like that before speaking.... I _highly_ doubt that's how much extra cash I have laying around.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 3, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> I believe it specifies Epic items, but I could be wrong about that, since I don't have my rules here with me.



It just seems strange that the above can be crafted in a day but my sword will take nearly half a year. (154 days if I remember correctly)


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 3, 2004)

*Is this fair*



			
				Dalamar said:
			
		

> Hmm... Maybe I should sometimes check stuff like that before speaking.... I _highly_ doubt that's how much extra cash I have laying around.



Yeah I doubt that also...  but it does bring up a good point.  We do need to discuses the magic items and making sure everyone gets their fair share.


Note:  This is totally OOC as my character would not worry about the last coin but someone might so how’s this sound.

Assume that the money hasn't been broke up yet but technically we all get the same amount.

As for how to determine how much one gets we add up all the coins from the auction and the value of the magical items found and then divided by group members. (Minus Wrahn, sorry boss but you have your coins already if theirs an item you want please speak up though.)

Lets use Vilya as an example. She expressed interest in the ring of protection.  We minus the rings cost from the total she would have gotten and those coins are "given" to the others so they would have the hard currency that they should have.

If there is an item that no one wants then we sale it though to be honest I think the armor would need to be destroyed 

So if you want an item, or two, or three, please list them now.


----------



## Wrahn (Mar 3, 2004)

Meekel may request you let him copy unique spells out of the spellbook before you sell it.  It will not detract from its value, but could prove useful in the future.

Other than that, Meekel has no claim on any of the items and would not dream of asking for anything.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 3, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Meekel may request you let him copy unique spells out of the spellbook before you sell it.  It will not detract from its value, but could prove useful in the future.



Not a problem in the slightest. 




			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> Other than that, Meekel has no claim on any of the items and would not dream of asking for anything.



That’s probably true but I think that we are at a high enough level that floating someone something in till they can pay it back is a non-issue.  So if you see something that you want or need please say something.  Do note that if someone requested it they would get it over you.


----------



## Endur (Mar 4, 2004)

I'm a traditionalist, so I have never been a fan of the Epic Magic Shops.  I have always preferred to find Epic Items and Artifacts in treasure hoards.

Of course, I'm also a fan of growth items.  Items that get more powerful as characters get more powerful.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 4, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> I'm a traditionalist, so I have never been a fan of the Epic Magic Shops.  I have always preferred to find Epic Items and Artifacts in treasure hoards.




I agree I think they should be found but then you would be skuing the montary vaule of a charters completely or you would be looking at one or two people in the party with an epic item.  I don't think we would have an issues with these players but you never know.  Note Brystaisia sword is not an epic level weapon.



			
				Endur said:
			
		

> Of course, I'm also a fan of growth items.  Items that get more powerful as characters get more powerful.



I couldn't agree more.  The items Brystasia has now or is in the process of getting will be what I plan on using here on out.  I noticed weaknesses that I thought needed to be addressed for Brystasia own safety and the safety of the party.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 4, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> I'm a traditionalist, so I have never been a fan of the Epic Magic Shops.  I have always preferred to find Epic Items and Artifacts in treasure hoards.
> 
> Of course, I'm also a fan of growth items.  Items that get more powerful as characters get more powerful.




I haven't seen all that many good mechanisms for growth weapons, but if you have any rules in particular you think work well, there is that as-yet unstatted sword you've got to try them out.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 4, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> I haven't seen all that many good mechanisms for growth weapons, but if you have any rules in particular you think work well, there is that as-yet unstatted sword you've got to try them out.



What I meant by my comments was that I plan on using the money we earn to improve what I already have...  


KISS

As in Keep It Simple Stupid.


----------



## Endur (Mar 4, 2004)

I have not seen a great mechanism for growth items as an overall system.  The problem is that most of the proposed rules-sets are either too complex or too limited or too dependent on house rules.  Part of the issue is deciding a) can any item be a growth item; b) can only certain items become growth items?; c) can any character have one growth item? many growth items? d) can only some characters have growth items?  I have played in campaigns that restricted growth items to certain items and/or placed limits on how many growth items a character can have.

The simplest system for growth items is to allow each player character to declare one item a "signature item".  Sort of like Aragorn's Anduril or Gandalf's Staff.  The signature item upgrades itself without any magical enchantments being necessary, although the player still has to spend the appropriate amount of gold.  The gold is lost mysteriously for play balance reasons (poor investments, thieves, charitable contributions, fancy clothing, the player can pick how the money was spent).  The player can make up stories of how or why their item has become more powerful (the pc learned how to wield the item a new way, the item is intelligent and learned, the item was enhanced by purpose or accident, etc.).  

I played in a campaign that allowed every player to have three signature items.  Three was too many.

An alternative would be to make the ability to have a signature item be a feat.  Sort of like the Exalted Ancestral Weapon feat.  But I'm not sure that's a feat that will really appeal to people, especially given that its going to take an Epic Feat slot.



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> I haven't seen all that many good mechanisms for growth weapons, but if you have any rules in particular you think work well, there is that as-yet unstatted sword you've got to try them out.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 4, 2004)

Endur I'm going to assume based upon what you said that you have no interest in the Seer's magic items?  (I just want to be double sure here.)

Everyone Else:

Bracers of Armor +8
Headband of Intellect +6
Staff of Frost, 50 charges
Pink Ioun Stone
Ring of Wizardry I
Ring of Protection +3
Gloves of Dexterity +4
Rod of Absorption (contains 5 9th level spells)
Wand of fireball, 10th level, 50 charges
Scrolls of: Fireball (10th level), Greater Teleport, Acid Fog, Incendiary Cloud, Shapechange, Wail of the Banshee, Bigby's Clenched Fist, Horrid Wilting, Maze, Summon IX

There really isn't anything in there that Brystasia needs or wants.  

I don't want to mention the rod again but I guess I must as it's about full having only 5 spell levels left.  Wrahn is Meekel interested in it?

As for everything else I'll add up it's total value tomorrow after work if someone doesn't beat me to it before then. (hint hint)

BTW: I have no plans to go through the issues  that we recently went though in Endur's game so please claim it or watch it go bye bye.  Got it?


----------



## Serpenteye (Mar 4, 2004)

I might be inerested in the manacles and the key, depending on their abilities, but nothing else. I don't think we should destroy the armour, unless it is extremely vile, that would just be wasteful.


----------



## Wrahn (Mar 4, 2004)

Sandorel should take it.  It has 45charges (5x9th level spells) and can be used to cast 45 spell levels.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 4, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Sandorel should take it.  It has 45charges (5x9th level spells) and can be used to cast 45 spell levels.



I believe this is the rod you’re talking about correct?  If so doesn't it cast the spell it "absorbs"?


----------



## Wrahn (Mar 4, 2004)

Stupid browser, deleting for double post


----------



## Wrahn (Mar 4, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> I believe this is the rod you’re talking about correct?  If so doesn't it cast the spell it "absorbs"?




From the 3.5 SRD:



> Absorption: This rod acts as a magnet, drawing spells or spell-like abilities into itself. The magic absorbed must be a single-target spell or a ray directed at either the character possessing the rod or her gear. The rod then nullifies the spell’s effect and stores its potential until the wielder releases this energy in the form of spells of her own. She can instantly detect a spell’s level as the rod absorbs that spell’s energy. Absorption requires no action on the part of the user if the rod is in hand at the time.
> 
> A running total of absorbed (and used) spell levels should be kept. The wielder of the rod can use captured spell energy to cast any spell she has prepared, without expending the preparation itself. The only restrictions are that the levels of spell energy stored in the rod must be equal to or greater than the level of the spell the wielder wants to cast, that any material components required for the spell be present, and that the rod be in hand when casting. For casters such as bards or sorcerers who do not prepare spells, the rod’s energy can be used to cast any spell of the appropriate level or levels that they know.
> 
> ...


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 4, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Absorption: This rod acts as a magnet, drawing spells or spell-like abilities into itself.



Okay so I didn’t read it correctly but then again I was having a real bad day that day...  Anyhow I still think this would be more useful for Sanderol than Brystasia as his spells are much more offensive in nature and also he will have a free hand that Brystasia will probably not have.

Okay I've read it twice and if someone makes some perversion out of it more power to you.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 4, 2004)

EDIT: Late reply.  Whoops.


----------



## Velenne (Mar 4, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> I haven't seen all that many good mechanisms for growth weapons, but if you have any rules in particular you think work well, there is that as-yet unstatted sword you've got to try them out.




I had mentioned this earlier as well in regards to 'upgrading' the sentience of the Hunters armor through meditation and a trove of gold offered as a sacrifice.  I'm not sure how that would work in game but it functions mechancially.  The Book of Exalted Deeds has a feat which uses such a mechanic.


----------



## Wrahn (Mar 4, 2004)

I think that is an interesting way of handling it: as a feat.  You can have a one signature item per feat that allows you to spend money to upgrade the item, rather than find someone to do it for you.

I am not sure if it should cost experience or not.  Costing experience seems a little harsh, especially if the gold cost is similar to purchasing it.  On the other hand, without experience cost it would seem to be a little prone to abuse. As you would just tend to put all your effects on the signature item rather than buying an item.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 4, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> I think that is an interesting way of handling it: as a feat.  You can have a one signature item per feat that allows you to spend money to upgrade the item, rather than find someone to do it for you.
> 
> I am not sure if it should cost experience or not.  Costing experience seems a little harsh, especially if the gold cost is similar to purchasing it.  On the other hand, without experience cost it would seem to be a little prone to abuse. As you would just tend to put all your effects on the signature item rather than buying an item.




That's actually sort of the point.  It eliminates the magic item shop, in favor of a single item which is not only the bulk of their power, but a very significant part of the character.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 4, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> That's actually sort of the point.  It eliminates the magic item shop, in favor of a single item which is not only the bulk of their power, but a very significant part of the character.



I do like it the XP doesn't seem that harsh I guess....  At least my ECL would be eliminated that way if I don't use it...  

I just don't see the feat as fair game cause I have so many I need to make my character realistic.  I needed like 3 or 4, I think, to make it into Heartwarder PrC so this puts Brystasia at a extreme disadvantage and makes the fighter class much more interesting as all of it's free feats can fill most of the normal feats.


----------



## Endur (Mar 4, 2004)

And that item is supposed to be a significant part of the character's story.  

Examples include Arthur's Excalibur, Thor's Hammer, Ironman's Armor, Captain America's Shield, etc.  Just about any significant item that features in stories gets better and more powerful over time, including Frodo's ring.



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> That's actually sort of the point.  It eliminates the magic item shop, in favor of a single item which is not only the bulk of their power, but a very significant part of the character.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 4, 2004)

Given that it doesn't actually adjust character wealth, but in fact may decrease it (as it is more expensive to add functions to an item than to create a new single-purpose item), I think it may be balanced to allow it without a feat.  Anyone object?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 4, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> I think it may be balanced to allow it without a feat.  Anyone object?



I don't really object but if you look at my character sheet you notice I do this already...  Allot too.  Does this mean my signature item is my boots and a ring?


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 4, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> I don't really object but if you look at my character sheet you notice I do this already...  Allot too.  Does this mean my signature item is my boots and a ring?




No.  What I mean is, does anyone have objections to incorporating the rule suggested without requiring a feat for its use: that a character may have one signature item which they may upgrade, at a cost equal to the difference in market prices of the final and current items, through a process of meditation?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 4, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> No.  What I mean is, does anyone have objections to incorporating the rule suggested without requiring a feat for its use: that a character may have one signature item which they may upgrade, at a cost equal to the difference in market prices of the final and current items, through a process of meditation?



So the gold disappears and your "Item" is upgraded with the day, month, years that it normally would need?

Sure I'm game for that.  Would this have any effect upon my commissions?  I mean would commssions in general be allowed?


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## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 4, 2004)

(Double post)

Remember boys and girls don’t forget to drink your Ovaltine!


Also any items you want from the Seer please make a note...
Conan- Sword
Vilya - Ring of Protection


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## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 4, 2004)

(Triple post)

I knew better but it's been a frustrating day...


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## Endur (Mar 4, 2004)

Time cost of upgrade would only be a day of downtime for your single signature item.

In-game, the downtime could be finessed to be appropriate to the character.  For some characters, meditation might be appropriate.  For other characters, a period of drinking, wenching, and swordplay might be appropriate. 



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> So the gold disappears and your "Item" is upgraded with the day, month, years that it normally would need?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 4, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Time cost of upgrade would only be a day of downtime for your single signature item.




That would be cool...  what if we don't have a signature item right now or what if we want to change it later in the game? Can it be done?



			
				Endur said:
			
		

> In-game, the downtime could be finessed to be appropriate to the character.  For some characters, meditation might be appropriate.  For other characters, a period of drinking, wenching, and swordplay might be appropriate.



Hmmm, a goddess of love huh?      No, I think I’ll just leave it at prayer, worship and mediation. 

Honestly I do like it, as it will help keep the time away from adventuring down.


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## Velenne (Mar 5, 2004)

Exactly, and offers us the chance to make our characters (and their items) further unique.  I'm all for it.


----------



## Wrahn (Mar 5, 2004)

Serpenteye,

Does Sandorel usually walk around with persistent Righteous Might cast on him?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 5, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Does Sandorel usually walk around with persistent Righteous Might cast on him?



Not to my knowledge, he hasn't since we've been in Waterdeep.  Anyhow Serpenteye can drop the official word but in case you wanted or needed a quick answer therr you have it.  

Did I word something funny or something?


----------



## Wrahn (Mar 5, 2004)

No, it just is listed as one of his long duration buffs on his character "sheet" and was wondering if he was walking around town 12ft tall.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 5, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> No, it just is listed as one of his long duration buffs on his character "sheet" and was wondering if he was walking around town 12ft tall.



*LOL* No I would say not even Brystasia couldn't attract a crowd with a 12 ft man walking next to her.


----------



## Serpenteye (Mar 5, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> No, it just is listed as one of his long duration buffs on his character "sheet" and was wondering if he was walking around town 12ft tall.



That would look a bit weird. He would have some difficulty going shopping with Brystasia when he'd have to crawl to get trough a normal door.


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## Endur (Mar 6, 2004)

What do the Bracers and the Gloves look like?  i.e. Design, color, sturdiness, etc.



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Bracers of Armor +8
> Gloves of Dexterity +4


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 6, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> What do the Bracers and the Gloves look like?  i.e. Design, color, sturdiness, etc.




The bracers are steel, engraved with squarish geometric designs, and quite functional.  The gloves are incredibly thin creme-coloured silk, going halfway up to the elbow.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 6, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> The gloves are incredibly thin creme-coloured silk, going halfway up to the elbow.



Ohhh Conan would sooo good in that color.


----------



## Endur (Mar 6, 2004)

Item Sell values (assume they sell for halfprice to the magic shop):

Bracers of Armor +8  : 32k
Headband of Intellect +6 : 18k 
Staff of Frost, 50 charges : 28,125
Pink Ioun Stone : 4k
Ring of Wizardry I : 10k
Ring of Protection +3 : 9k
Gloves of Dexterity +4 : 8k
Rod of Absorption (contains 5 9th level spells) : 25k
Wand of fireball, 10th level, 50 charges : 11,250
Scrolls of: Fireball (10th level), Greater Teleport, Acid Fog, Incendiary Cloud, Shapechange, Wail of the Banshee, Bigby's Clenched Fist, Horrid Wilting, Maze, Summon IX  : 14,075   

Sword: unknown (At least  28k, potentially much more)
Armor: unknown (26,130 if Demon armor with no additional abilities)

total sale value for all items (including sword): 214,580


----------



## Endur (Mar 6, 2004)

The gloves are not an option.

The bracers might be an option.



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Ohhh Conan would sooo good in that color.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 6, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Item Sell values (assume they sell for halfprice to the magic shop)




I would imagine that we could pull of more than 50%...

To bad about the gloves...  They would have been nice.


----------



## Endur (Mar 6, 2004)

Well, then multiply by whatever % we end up getting.



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> I would imagine that we could pull of more than 50%...


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## Serpenteye (Mar 6, 2004)

How many remaining charges does the rod of Absorption hold? What's its true value?


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 6, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> How many remaining charges does the rod of Absorption hold? What's its true value?




It can absorb up to five more spell levels.  The true value is difficult to calculate; whether you'd rather have the spells already stored, or the absorptive capability, is subjective.


----------



## Endur (Mar 6, 2004)

I assumed that the rod was at its maximum value since it was holding 5 9th level spells and can absorb a 5th level.  If any of those spells had been burned, it would make sense to reduce the value of the rod proportionately.



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> It can absorb up to five more spell levels.  The true value is difficult to calculate; whether you'd rather have the spells already stored, or the absorptive capability, is subjective.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 6, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> That a character may have one signature item which they may upgrade, at a cost equal to the difference in market prices of the final and current items, through a process of meditatio?



I know you already know this but I just found it.  There is a feat in the Book of Exulted Deeds that hands this quite well:

Ancestral Relic (pg 39)
You own an ancestral heirloom and can invest it with increasiesg power.

Prerequisites: Any good alignment, character level 3rd. 

Benefit: Choose an item you own. The item must be of masterwork quality, and it must be an item that once belonged to a member of your family. Alternatively, the item may have belonged to another person to whom you are somehow connected, such as another member of your religious order.

At any time, you may retreat to a consecrated or hallowed location and spend time in prayer in order to awaken the spirits in your ancestral relic. This requires a sacrifice of valuable items worth the difference between the market price of the magic item your relic will become and the market price of your current relic. This sacrifice does not have to be gold-you can sacrifice magic items or other goods worth the required amount, rather than selling your goods (at half value) to pay for the sacrifice. You must spend 1 day per 1,000 gp value you sacrifice. During this you must spend at least 8 hours each day in prayer or meditation, not stopping to eat or rest. 

For example, a 4th-level paladin has a masterwork bastard sword she inherited from her grandfather. She makes sacrifices worth 2,000 gp and spends two days in prayer and fasting in the temple of Heironeous. When she emerges, her devotion has awakened the magic inherent in the blade, making it a +1 bastard sword. When she reaches  


7th level, she once again retreats to the temple for 6 days, sacrificng items worth an additional 6,000 gp to make her weapon a +2 bastard sword (market price 8,000 gp). When she reaches 11th level, she can make it a +2 holy bastard sword by making sacrifices with total 24,000 gp (the difference between 32,000 and 8,000 gp) and spending 24 days in prayer.

A character's level dictates the maximum value of his or her Mtral relic, as shown in Table 4-2.


```
4-2: ANCESTRAL RELIC			

Level	Maxuim Relic Value      Level	Maxuim Relic Value
1st	1,350 gp                12th	44,000 gp
2nd	2,700 gp                13th	55,000 gp
3rd	4,500 gp                14th	75,000 gp
4th	6,500 gp                15th	100,000 gp
6th	9,500 gp                16th	130,000 gp
7th	13,500 gp               17th	170,000 gp
8th	18,000 gp               18th	220,000 gp
9th	24,500 gp               19th	290,000 gp
10th	33,000 gp               20th	380,000 gp
```

No character may have more than one ancestral relic.


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## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 6, 2004)

In essence, what I propose is that each person should have access to this ability, without the requirement of the feat.


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## Endur (Mar 6, 2004)

Yes, but the feat in the BOED has a number of drawbacks for this campaign.

1) Only good characters can have it; at least one of us is neutral.
2) You have to inherit the item from your parents.
3) You have to make prayers (some of our characters don't pray).
4) You have to pray for 1 day for every 1k in price difference.  For an epic item, that would require years of prayer. 
5) As you yourself mentioned, feats are in short supply.  Particularly if you have to choose between an Epic feat and this feat.

It would make more sense to just let every character have one signature item and to let the player decide what it will be and let the player just spend the gold difference without a time requirement.  From a play-balance perspective, one signature item seems to work pretty well.  Especially since we're epic characters and are expected to be "legendary."


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 6, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> 1) Only good characters can have it; at least one of us is neutral.
> 2) You have to inherit the item from your parents.
> 3) You have to make prayers (some of our characters don't pray).
> 4) You have to pray for 1 day for every 1k in price difference.  For an epic item, that would require years of prayer.
> 5) As you yourself mentioned, feats are in short supply.  Particularly if you have to choose between an Epic feat and this feat.



I posted it so we could have some rules to base are own rules off of.

1) Easily removed.
2) Easily removed again.
3) It’s for game balanced in a normal campaign and can quickly be removed.  (Besides that's nearly a years worth of fighting, prayers, etc.4) Handled with the above...  and those would be some very sore knees.
5) *Very* short order I need all that I can get with Brystasia.



			
				Endur said:
			
		

> It would make more sense to just let every character have one signature item and to let the player decide what it will be and let the player just spend the gold difference without a time requirement.  From a play-balance perspective, one signature item seems to work pretty well.  Especially since we're epic characters and are expected to be "legendary."




In all honestly I couldn't agree more but we do need to have some type of rules for this.  Is there a max you can spend at each level?  This was the real reason for posting the feat even though it stops before epic level I thought it could be most helpful.  

To be honest their is so many unique rules I would like to see incorporated into this game that I imagine that PA is quite scared to open his email.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 6, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Yes, but the feat in the BOED has a number of drawbacks for this campaign.
> 
> 1) Only good characters can have it; at least one of us is neutral.
> 2) You have to inherit the item from your parents.
> ...




Thus, the removal of the feat requirement (5), and its attendant requirements (1,2, and 3); the time can also be shortened to 1 day per 10,000 gp, or 100,000 when the abilities being added are epic.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 6, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Thus, the removal of the feat requirement (5), and its attendant requirements (1,2, and 3); the time can also be shortened to 1 day per 10,000 gp, or 100,000 when the abilities being added are epic.



Yeah I would agree with this time reduction but technically isn't level 18 and higher epic level items?

Are we going to "rebuild" what we have already or do we just designate what is our item is?

Is the above feat no longer useable?  I sort of found another PrC that I really like.  (Damn PrC!)  Of course a near complete character redesign would really be needed so I doubt it will happen.


----------



## Endur (Mar 6, 2004)

I don't think a rebuild would be necessary, as having the feat wouldn't have changed any of our magic items.  I think you would just have to designate your signature item once you know what it is.  



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Are we going to "rebuild" what we have already or do we just designate what is our item is?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 6, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> To be honest Brystasia’s sword whip would have to be considered her signature weapon.  Anything else wouldn't be right to the character.  I would be tempted to go with her armor but that's going to be replaced as it provides far to little protection.




You know what...  Forget the above if we ever ascend I'm going to look like a blonde copy of Sune.  I'll think of something else.

PA, Oh I found a weapon enchantment bonus that gives the user proficiency.  It costs more than your way but I felt obligated to inform you.  WoTC’s: Arms and Equipment (pg 97) Proficient +2 bonus)

PA, No big deal on the wait or the shortness of the post.  (Hey just got the email.  Most admit I agree with Tundraleaf on the subject. 

FYI: Sandorel and Brystasia had that argument on the way to see Tundraleaf and probably would have ended it long before they got there, as Brystasia wouldn't waste Tundraleaf's time like that.


----------



## Serpenteye (Mar 6, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> It can absorb up to five more spell levels.  The true value is difficult to calculate; whether you'd rather have the spells already stored, or the absorptive capability, is subjective.




Clearly an item that has more charges is more valuable than an item that has a lesser number of charges left. If the rod has already absorbed at least 45 out of 50 spell levels its monetary value should be nearly halved. In my oppinion the ability to absorb spells is more valuable than the ability to cast them again.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 6, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> total sale value for all items (including sword): 214,580



Okay math time.

Difference between 20th and 21st level character wealth: 215,000

Wealth from the auction and the platinum that the Seer had: 650,000
Above items at half value: 214,580
Each member would get: 172,916

Wealth from the auction and the platinum that the Seer had: 650,000
Above items at 3/4 value: 321,870
Each member would get: 194,374

Wealth from the auction and the platinum that the Seer had: 650,000
Above items at 4/5 value: 343,328
Each member would get: 198,665

Wealth from the auction and the platinum that the Seer had: 650,000
Above items at full value: 429,160
Each member would get: 215,832

Notes: We do not know how much the sword is truly worth.

Also we cannot expect to get full market value on the items outside of the party.  If you take an item from the party group you going to have to "pay" the full amount.  It's not really fair but it does lead to balance.  Does everyone else agree with this?

At 4/5 the seller would make nearly 86K when he sold the items for full value.  Not a bad days work to be honest but not very realistically either.  Then again neither is the static value of magic items.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 6, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> In my oppinion the ability to absorb spells is more valuable than the ability to cast them again.



Maybe, but has to consider how and when one is casting the spell like If you’re grappled it could be incredibly valuable.


----------



## Serpenteye (Mar 6, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> ", our faiths can define ourselves but simply cannot define us.”




? I don't get it. It seems like a self-contradiction.
Saizhan


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 6, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> ? I don't get it. It seems like a self-contradiction.
> Saizhan



*LOL* I'll let Sanderol think upon it... 

You I will inform though.  Think "us" as in as in a couple and the fact that there will never be one if Sandorel can't come to terms with her faith.

And here I was quite proud of the line...


----------



## Serpenteye (Mar 6, 2004)

Sandorel probably got it, I'm the one who don't have Common as my first language. Some of the subtleties of english are sadly lost on me.  :\ 
It was a good line, though, now when you have explained it to me.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 6, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Sandorel probably got it, I'm the one who don't have Common as my first language. Some of the subtleties of English are sadly lost on me.  :\



Go with it then.   As for English you do a far superior job than I could do in any language.  As for subtleties of English there are way to many. 



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> It was a good line, though, now when you have explained it to me.



Thanks.


----------



## Endur (Mar 6, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Difference between 20th and 21st level character wealth: 215,000
> 
> Wealth from the auction and the platinum that the Seer had: 650,000
> Above items at full value: 429,160
> ...




Then Conan will take the Sword (at least 56k), the Bracers (64k), and 95,832 gold out of the party treasure (for a total of 215,832).  11,500 of his gold was spent on the griffon chick for Brystasia and 2200 gold was spent on appraising the sword.  That would leave him with 82,132 gold income.

The other option for dividing treasure would be the old "classic D&D approach".  Divide the gold five ways (130k each), then let everyone pick magic items.  The players can then sell or keep their items at their option.  This is actually my preferred approach because it is more realistic.  Its hard to imagine that our characters have an agreed assessment value for different items, and that we all agree that certain items have a specific price.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 7, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> The other option for dividing treasure would be the old "classic D&D approach".  Divide the gold five ways (130k each), then let everyone pick magic items.




I've seen that approuch many times, I've done that approuc many times also but I'm not sure that level 21 characters in the middle of a city with over a million citizens would need to resort to it though.  



			
				Endur said:
			
		

> This is actually my preferred approach because it is more realistic.




In a dungeon I would agree with you but in the middle of Waterdeep I see it vastly unrealistic.



			
				Endur said:
			
		

> Its hard to imagine that our characters have an agreed assessment value for different items, and that we all agree that certain items have a specific price.



Well the market value, and with the static nature of the DMG, would tell us how much they are worth.


----------



## Endur (Mar 7, 2004)

I meant that our characters, with the exception of the loremaster, don't have a copy of the DMG.  So they can't look up items.



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Well the market value, and with the static nature of the DMG, would tell us how much they are worth.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 7, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> I meant that our characters, with the exception of the loremaster, don't have a copy of the DMG.  So they can't look up items.



Right but its a rather large and rich city I'm sure they can have a good idea of the market value after a days work.

I'm sorry it’s taken so long to get back to Conan and the gryphon chick.  This short trip has turned into a trek of epic proportions...  I'm not sure what the delay is either. *sigh*

I can honestly say that Brystasia would have gone with you if giving a chance.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 7, 2004)

PA, when do you suspect you will reply to my response in post 497?


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 7, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> PA, when do you suspect you will reply to my response in post 497?




Right now, but don't expect much.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 7, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> To be honest Brystasia’s sword whip would have to be considered her signature weapon.  Anything else wouldn't be right to the character.  I would be tempted to go with her armor but that's going to be replaced as it provides far to little protection.




You know what...  Forget the above if we ever ascend I'm going to look like a blonde copy of Sune.  I'll think of something.

PA, Oh I found a weapon enchantment bonus that gives the user proficiency.  It costs more than your way but I felt obligated to inform you.  WoTC’s: Arms and Equipment (pg 97) Proficient +2 bonus)

PA, No big deal on the wait or the shortness of the post.  (Hey just got the email.  Most admit I agree with Tundraleaf on the subject. 

FYI: Sandorel and Brystasia had that argument on the way to see Tundraleaf and probably would have ended it long before they got there, as Brystasia wouldn't waste Tundraleaf's time like that.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 7, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> FYI: Sandorel and Brystasia had that argument on the way to see Tundraleaf and probably would have ended it long before they got there, as Brystasia wouldn't waste Tundraleaf's time like that.




Actually after reading the posts again it’s only my posts that state where we are at... I can simply edit my own post to exclude that information.  Shall we do it that way?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 7, 2004)

You know when I look at these numbers one more time I realize something...


```
4-2: ANCESTRAL RELIC			

Level	Maxuim Relic Value      Level	Maxuim Relic Value
1st	1,350 gp                12th	44,000 gp
2nd	2,700 gp                13th	55,000 gp
3rd	4,500 gp                14th	75,000 gp
4th	6,500 gp                15th	100,000 gp
6th	9,500 gp                16th	130,000 gp
7th	13,500 gp               17th	170,000 gp
8th	18,000 gp               18th	220,000 gp
9th	24,500 gp               19th	290,000 gp
10th	33,000 gp               20th	380,000 gp
```

We need to define something is this item a weapon only?  If not one can quickly make ungodly armor at our level I mean a +10 is only 100,000.  

Does anyone plan on having their item be something other than a weapon?

If its not a weapon do you plan on having it be something other than armor? 

If no one answers no to both of the above questions we could always do it one the total + of the enchantment.  (Of course armor has a number of enchantments that are GP based and not Enchantment based.)


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 7, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> PA, Oh I found a weapon enchantment bonus that gives the user proficiency.  It costs more than your way but I felt obligated to inform you.  WoTC’s: Arms and Equipment (pg 97) Proficient +2 bonus)
> 
> FYI: Sandorel and Brystasia had that argument on the way to see Tundraleaf and probably would have ended it long before they got there, as Brystasia wouldn't waste Tundraleaf's time like that.




For the first, meh.  Lesser Bracers of Archery are 5,000; doubled cost for an exotic weapon, and 1.5 for being on an existing item, is still cheaper, and makes more sense.

For the second, Brystasia might be that considerate, but Sandorel might not.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 7, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> For the first, meh.  Lesser Bracers of Archery are 5,000; doubled cost for an exotic weapon, and 1.5 for being on an existing item, is still cheaper, and makes more sense.



Works for me too, though the figures I showed you didn't have the double cost for exotic but I will correct that.



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> For the second, Brystasia might be that considerate, but Sandorel might not.



Works for me I'll edit my post...


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 7, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> We need to define something is this item a weapon only?  If not one can quickly make ungodly armor at our level I mean a +10 is only 100,000.




Actually the amount of money needed to boost a weapon/armor past +11 makes it null and void.  We are probably looking at making level 26th before someone would have enough coin to sink into improving their "Relic" so I think as long as everyone has their item of choice by level 23 we should be good to go.


----------



## Wrahn (Mar 7, 2004)

Speaking as a straight caster, who will be more likely to use his weapons to cut bread than cut his enemies and who doesn't wear armor.  I vote the signature item can be any item.


----------



## Serpenteye (Mar 7, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> For the second, Brystasia might be that considerate, but Sandorel might not.




Maybe he wouldn't, but he did. I assumed we were still on our way to the shop when we had our discussion. It's not a big deal, and there's no need to go back and edit posts again.


----------



## Serpenteye (Mar 7, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Speaking as a straight caster, who will be more likely to use his weapons to cut bread than cut his enemies and who doesn't wear armor.  I vote the signature item can be any item.




I agree.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 7, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Speaking as a straight caster, who will be more likely to use his weapons to cut bread than cut his enemies and who doesn't wear armor.  I vote the signature item can be any item.



Well to be honest I don't even see a weapon on your character sheet and I do see two forums of armor. 

I do agree though that no one should tell you how to use your "relic", I lack a better word right now, but I do think we need to set up a limit and or some rules.     (sorry I sort of like rules, most be from my time in the military and my desire not to see something exploited)

Anyhow, One could spend a fortune with just the DMG if one kept away from a weapon or armor. I mean after you hit a total + 10 or go to an AC Bonus +6 or a +6 enchantment bonus to hit you quickly come across no money to spend on this for a good long time.  With a ring and the DMG you could have a heyday trying to us up the level 20 GP.  (Note: look at the chart I’ve shown twice to see what I mean.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 7, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Well to be honest I don't even see a weapon on your character sheet and I do see two forums of armor.
> 
> I do agree though that no one should tell you how to use your "relic", I lack a better word right now, but I do think we need to set up a limit and or some rules.     (sorry I sort of like rules, most be from my time in the military and my desire not to see something exploited)
> 
> Anyhow, One could spend a fortune with just the DMG if one kept away from a weapon or armor. I mean after you hit a total + 10 or go to an AC Bonus +6 or a +6 enchantment bonus to hit you quickly come across no money to spend on this for a good long time.  With a ring and the DMG you could have a heyday trying to us up the level 20 GP.  (Note: look at the chart I’ve shown twice to see what I mean.




You can add abilities to weapons and armor other than enhancement bonuses and equivalents.  Armor already has the energy resistances listed as flat numerical costs; other things could be added in similar fashion.  The cost of adding a spell of at least 10 min/level duration is simply 1.5xcaster levelxspell levelx2000 for a use-activated property.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 7, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> You can add abilities to weapons and armor other than enhancement bonuses and equivalents.



True and I've done so already...    Also your reasonable when it comes to unique ideas so I wouldn't worry about to many things getting nixed.



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Armor already has the energy resistances listed as flat numerical costs; other things could be added in similar fashion.




Shadow, Silent moves, Glamered, etc.

So yeah it works.  I figure the above table works on some sort of mathematical increase of your regular gold per a level I look at expanding it to level 30 if PA likes it.

Also I sort of thought of a way to limit are time in prayer, battle, etc.  If you do more than one item you only have to pray for the highest item.  

Say you did armor and got Glamered, Shadow, greater and Sonic Resistance, Greater.  The Sonic Resistance is the most expensive so you would have to pray for it.  (66 days by default but maybe only 7 if PA wants to extend his rules to that.)


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 7, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Also I sort of thought of a way to limit are time in prayer, battle, etc.  If you do more than one item you only have to pray for the highest item.
> 
> Say you did armor and got Glamered, Shadow, greater and Sonic Resistance, Greater.  The Sonic Resistance is the most expensive so you would have to pray for it.  (66 days by default but maybe only 7 if PA wants to extend his rules to that.)




That rule would apply to all items and abilities, since they're all going to be about the same expense.  As far as I can tell, the suggested maximum value spent on the item is ~1/2 of suggested cash for the level.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 7, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> As far as I can tell, the suggested maximum value spent on the item is ~1/2 of suggested cash for the level.



Yeah that's what I believe it turns into when I look at it quickly also.  (Though it starts off not at that level)


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 7, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Yeah that's what I believe it turns into when I look at it quickly also.  (Though it starts off not at that level)



Actually you idiot it does...    My previous chart had errors and yes it is 50% max money.


```
Character Level     Character Wealth by Level    Maxuim Relic Value
3rd                      2,700                               1,350
4th                      5,400                               2,700
5th                      9,000                               4,500
6th                     13,000                              6,500
7th                     19,000                              9,500
8th                     27,000                             13,500
9th                     36,000                             18,000
10th                    49,000                             24,500
11th                    66,000                             33,000
12th                    88,000                             44,000
13th                   110,000                            55,000
14th                   150,000                            75,000
15th                   200,000                           100,000
16th                   260,000                           130,000
17th                   340,000                           170,000
18th                   440,000                            220,000
19th                   580,000                            290,000
20th                   760,000                            380,000
21th                   975,000                            487,500
22nd                 1,200,000                           600,000
23rd                  1,500,000                           750,000
24th                  1,800,000                           900,000
25th                  2,100,000                          1,050,000
26th                  2,500,000                          1,250,000
27th                  2,900,000                          1,450,000
28th                  3,300,000                          1,650,000
29th                  3,800,000                          1,900,000
30th                  4,300,000                          2,150,000
31st                  4,900,000                          2,450,000
32nd                 5,600,000                           2,800,000
33rd                  6,300,000                           3,150,000
34th                  7,000,000                           3,500,000
35th                  7,900,000                           3,950,000
36th                  8,800,000                           4,400,000
37th                  9,900,000                           4,950,000
38th                 11,000,000                           5,500,000
39th                 12,300,000                           6,150,000
40th                 13,600,000	                          6,800,000
```


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 7, 2004)

Endur, I stopped my last post to see if you wanted to RP out the gryphon chick or not.  So let me know.


----------



## Endur (Mar 8, 2004)

Feel free to post a response to the gift.



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Endur, I stopped my last post to see if you wanted to RP out the gryphon chick or not.  So let me know.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 8, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Feel free to post a response to the gift.



Will do.  

I'll give PA a chance to comment on what was posted already or to see if he has anything planned for Brystasia on her trip through the streets of Waterdeep.


----------



## Velenne (Mar 9, 2004)

So what's the final word on upgrading our signature items?  Should I get started?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 9, 2004)

Velenne said:
			
		

> So what's the final word on upgrading our signature items?  Should I get started?



I haven't seen anyone claim his or her signature/epic weapon yet.  So if you know what yours is going to be please mention it as it might give me an idea for Brystasia...


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 9, 2004)

Velenne said:
			
		

> So what's the final word on upgrading our signature items?  Should I get started?



Your signature item is your armor, right?  Go ahead, under the rules outlined already.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 9, 2004)

Okay if anyone passing though here want to help me out I would appreciate it:

I narrowed it down to either Brystasia’s current armor or the sword she has commissioned right now but I really can’t decide which. 

I value all of your opinions so what do you think would be her signature item?


----------



## Velenne (Mar 9, 2004)

Ya, it's the armor.  

I think Brysasia could probably do better with the commissioned item.  I like the flavor of it and now that you've played the character (something I didn't have the benefit of- stupid antisocial xill) you have a better idea of what obstacles she could overcome or qualities she might improve.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 9, 2004)

Velenne said:
			
		

> I think Brysasia could probably do better with the commissioned item.  I like the flavor of it.




Aye I do too but it will take a good long while to finish it.  Shes not much of a combatant and the sword will probaly not change this so really insane armor seems like a good choice too.

Anyhow one vote for the sword. 



			
				Velenne said:
			
		

> something I didn't have the benefit of- stupid antisocial xill




I'm sorry I feel like it’s only myself that keep the rest of you from really enjoying this game.  

Do you usally play someone antisocial or is this a first for you?


----------



## Velenne (Mar 9, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Do you usally play someone antisocial or is this a first for you?




At the tabletop, I have a bad tendency of taking a leadership role.  This is usually because the other players get distracted easily and our marathon sessions don't account for much if someone doesn't reign it in.  It's also because I'm just naturally drawn to leadership.

In Play-by-posts, I really try to stretch myself and my ability to get into a range of different characters.  I'm afraid that in the case of Antillis, I put most of my thought into 'how am I going to make a melee character viable at epic levels'.   (This goes into my belief that non-casters are more and more useless at the high echelons, but that discussion is better left at that)  

I put precious little thought into Antillis the character beyond my concept of an epic game hunter who inspires irrational fear on name alone.  More for the fact that he prefers intelligent, wary prey than the nonintelligent variety, but also because he's damn near unstoppable.   

I'm afraid that ultimately, he's pretty shallow and simple.  The Hunt is what he lives for.  A bounty from his own people means he always walks the line between predator and prey, for they could come for him at any moment.  So, now you know what I know about Antillis the Hunter.  

Perhaps another character would be more appropriate for the type of game this is turning out to be.  What does everyone else think?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 9, 2004)

Velenne said:
			
		

> Perhaps another character would be more appropriate for the type of game this is turning out to be.  What does everyone else think?




First let me state that if you want to play the hunter do so.  He's proved more usefulness than Brystasia.  I do know what you mean by pushing yourself to the limits.  I'm playing a mute in another game and to be honest I feel lost in the shuffle at times cause of it.  This concept I'm doing now isn't my first attempt at a half-nymph but I think I've gotten it darn perfect.  My only complaint is with the favored soul's infinite need for ability points and my own obsession with skill points.  I'm also a tinker by nature and PA can attest to this as I'm about as active in his inbox as I am out of topic.

I feel horrible for how long it has taken for Brystasia to get back to her chamber so you can post again.   :\  I'm not sure if you got my email on that or not either it was sent a few days ago. 

All that said if you want to swap right now is about the perfect time, the hunter’s share of the loot hasn't been divided, and we are in between adventures.

All I can suggest is come up with a concept toss some numbers around and maybe you might find something else you like better.    I would avoid ECL races if possible then again a +2 is about as high as I would go and if you really want to test epic levels with a warrior.  Nothing will touch the epic fighter and their insane number of feats.  Feats are more important than any class ability and even any race ability.

Anyhow to sum it up.  Play what you want to.


----------



## Wrahn (Mar 9, 2004)

Truthfully, from what I have seen of your character I think it is interesting, and can be fun to play, but can understand where you may feel limited by it.  I have seen situations like your character before.  The trick of it is to take it in a different direction, if you find yourself bored or hampered by how you envision your character, perhaps you should work with the GM for some character growth, learn that the hunt may not be everything Antillis thought it was.  Or that there is someone who is a greater hunter than he is, or some kind of goal beyond simply hunting.

If you can not envision a way of your character naturally growing in some aspect, then I suppose it is time to move on.  But, that is up to you.

BTW, I think you are underestimating the value of the non-caster to an epic group.  I have played epic level games and watched our casters flounder while the meleers dominate the combat, I have seen the opposite as well.  It just depends on the situation.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 9, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> perhaps you should work with the GM for some character growth




If you seem worried or uncertain on rather or not to do this please don't be PA is more than helpful in letting you make the character you want to.    His email is also continently located in his profile if you want to talk about it offline.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 9, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> If you seem worried or uncertain on rather or not to do this please don't be PA is more than helpful in letting you make the character you want to.    His email is also continently located in his profile if you want to talk about it offline.




Don't say such things.  You'll give me a reputation for softness, and the only way to reverse such a thing is a gratuitous TPK or two.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 9, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Don't say such things.  You'll give me a reputation for softness, and the only way to reverse such a thing is a gratuitous TPK or two.



Fine I take it back...  PA rules his game with a steel fist that few dictators and conqueror of history can top...  

Is that better?


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 9, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Fine I take it back...  PA rules his game with a steel fist that few dictators and conqueror of history can top...
> 
> Is that better?




Slightly, but you still allowed that some dictators may be more brutal than me; that's almost a challenge.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 9, 2004)

Fine I take it back... PA rules his game with a steel fist that few dictators and conqueror of history can top but none of them can top the sure brutality of fingernail removing torture that is PA when cackles from behind his dungeon master screen…

Is *THAT* better?


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 9, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Fine I take it back... PA rules his game with a steel fist that few dictators and conqueror of history can top but none of them can top the sure brutality of fingernail removing torture that is PA when cackles from behind his dungeon master screen…
> 
> Is *THAT* better?




I am satisfied.  For now.  Further adulation may be in order at a later date.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 9, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> I am satisfied.  For now.  Further adulation may be in order at a later date.



I live to serve my master...


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 9, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> I live to serve my master...




For now, you _live_ to serve.  Other arrangements can occur if necessary . . .

*Insert diabolical cackling, the crash of thunder, and other effects as deemed appropriate*


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 9, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> For now, you _live_ to serve.  Other arrangements can occur if necessary . . .



*LMAO* 
In that case I change my mind...

I serve to live.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 10, 2004)

Okay, 

This seems to be dragging on but I'll give it one more sets of posts.

How wants this stuff?


```
Bracers of Armor +8 : (Conan)
Headband of Intellect +6 : 
Staff of Frost, 50 charges : 
Pink Ioun Stone : 
Ring of Wizardry I : 
Ring of Protection +3 : (Vilya)
Gloves of Dexterity +4 : 
Rod of Absorption (contains 5 9th level spells) : (Sandorel?)
Wand of fireball, 10th level, 50 charges : 
Scrolls of: Fireball (10th level), Greater Teleport, Acid Fog, Incendiary Cloud, Shapechange, Wail of the Banshee, Bigby's Clenched Fist, Horrid Wilting, Maze, Summon IX : 
Sword: (Conan)
```


----------



## Dalamar (Mar 10, 2004)

Aylia


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 10, 2004)

Dalamar said:
			
		

> Aylia



Okay so I didn't check to see the proper spelling of Vilya it's just been so long since I've seen it spelled out. 

I did fix it and I am sorry about that...


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 10, 2004)

Velenne, I'm curious do you plan on swapping your character out?  I'm planning, hopefully, on making the post(s) that involve him tonight but if he isn't going to "show" cause your swapping him out please let me know.  

PS: You need not have your new character done and I think its safe to assume that PA is okay with it, as he hasn't said no. 

PSS: Check your PMs please. link


----------



## Velenne (Mar 10, 2004)

I think I can probably keep him.  I'm planning on make the armor Telepathic so it can speak for him in a more sociable manner.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 10, 2004)

Velenne said:
			
		

> I think I can probably keep him.  I'm planning on make the armor Telepathic so it can speak for him in a more sociable manner.



That would work, maybe polymorph also so he doesn't scare the poor people of Waterdeep.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 11, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> The Cimmerian answers Brystasia's questions about the griffon.



He did?  

Okay I'm going to assume it doesn't have a name but I would imagine that Conan got to pick the sex at least most people do with their pets.  

So what is it?


----------



## Endur (Mar 11, 2004)

I was abstracting it so you could fill in any details you want.

Conan bought the first Griffon he could find.



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> He did?
> 
> Okay I'm going to assume it doesn't have a name but I would imagine that Conan got to pick the sex at least most people do with their pets.
> 
> So what is it?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 11, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> I was abstracting it so you could fill in any details you want.



I appreciate that, but it's buying a gif certificate for flowers for your wife and letting her pick the color of the roses. 



			
				Endur said:
			
		

> Conan bought the first Griffon he could find.



In that case I think we will have to wait for PA's answer then.


----------



## Endur (Mar 11, 2004)

You should play a character that is fun.  If its not fun, you should do something else.  In the past, I have built min-maxed rules-based characters that ended up as no fun to roleplay.  

I agree and disagree with the non-casters are useless statement.  On the one hand, my character killed the Seer and ended the fight.  On the other hand, from a strict power analysis my character is the least powerful of the characters in our party.

Personally, I think its easier to role-play a non-caster.  Effectively role-playing a spellcaster can be very difficult.  



			
				Velenne said:
			
		

> In Play-by-posts, I really try to stretch myself and my ability to get into a range of different characters.  I'm afraid that in the case of Antillis, I put most of my thought into 'how am I going to make a melee character viable at epic levels'.   (This goes into my belief that non-casters are more and more useless at the high echelons, but that discussion is better left at that)
> 
> I put precious little thought into Antillis the character beyond my concept of an epic game hunter who inspires irrational fear on name alone.  More for the fact that he prefers intelligent, wary prey than the nonintelligent variety, but also because he's damn near unstoppable.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 11, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> I appreciate that, but it's buying a gif certificate for flowers for your wife and letting her pick the color of the roses.
> 
> 
> In that case I think we will have to wait for PA's answer then.




The griffon is as-yet unnamed, but is decidedly female.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 11, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> You should play a character that is fun.  If its not fun, you should do something else.  In the past, I have built min-maxed rules-based characters that ended up as no fun to roleplay.



I couldn't agree more complex/flawed characters are more fun than anything else.  Brystasia is the only Min/Max character I have made that I've had any success with.  Maybe cause she's flawed. 




			
				Endur said:
			
		

> I agree and disagree with the non-casters are useless statement.  On the one hand, my character killed the Seer and ended the fight.  On the other hand, from a strict power analysis my character is the least powerful of the characters in our party.



I think he could kill Brystaisa in an even fight and the only reason why your power isn't as it could be is cause your not using magical items.  Yet.



			
				Endur said:
			
		

> Personally, I think its easier to role-play a non-caster.  Effectively role-playing a spellcaster can be very difficult.



I couldn't agree more, Brystasia is the only spell caster I have and I chouse a class that had limited spells on purpose.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 11, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> The griffon is as-yet unnamed, but is decidedly female.



Cool works for me.    I was really far into my last post so I didn't bother to backtrack to insert this.  I'll get it in later like when I name her.  

Velenne, you get to post in character!    

*Kermit the frog yell while running of screen*

opps some of that was an email...


----------



## Velenne (Mar 11, 2004)

So what is the final total on our individual shares?  I want to start working on Antillis' armor upgrade.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 11, 2004)

Velenne said:
			
		

> So what is the final total on our individual shares?  I want to start working on Antillis' armor upgrade.



The final total is still uncertain but PA has devised a way to take care of the desire to sale items.  (PA sorry I'll spoil your surprise but at least you will not have to type it.)

With your signature weapon you can sacrifice magic items, at their full value to upgrade them, this will completely destroy the sacrificed item and some rules will need to be hit on but if everyone plans, and agrees to use the unwanted magic items on their signature item then we can have the full value of the haul.

Say: we have the Gloves of Dex that no one wants.  Brystasia through her ceremony can sacrifice it to her custom item.  This would allow for 16,000 GP worth of work. 

I’m not sure if you have to use the magic then or if the item will hold upon them like a bank.  (minus the interest.)

Anyhow from my previous post:


> Wealth from the auction and the platinum that the Seer had: 650,000
> Above items at full value: 429,160
> Each member would get: *215,832*
> 
> Notes: We do not know how much the sword is truly worth.




The above assume that the sword is worth 28K and that the armor is simply Demon armor.  These have not been confirmed but I suspect it will be at least that much and a possibility to be more.

So if everyone would state your signature item that would be great.  If you have none just say that.

If you plan on upgrading your signature weapon please state how much you plan to do to it so we can get rid of the unwated magic items quickly.


----------



## Velenne (Mar 11, 2004)

I was planning on just upgrading Antillis' armor using some of the new Intelligent item rules and some from the ELH.  I havn't seen any armor abilties that I really want added so it'll probably all be abilities related to it being Intelligent.

First upgrade: *better translation capabilties!!*


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 11, 2004)

Velenne said:
			
		

> I was planning on just upgrading Antillis' armor using some of the new Intelligent item rules and some from the ELH.  I havn't seen any armor abilties that I really want added so it'll probably all be abilities related to it being Intelligent.



ELH, rules make for a very high ego, but what do you mean by the "new" rules.  I'm looking at making Brystasia’s sword intelligent also.



			
				Velenne said:
			
		

> First upgrade: *better translation capabilties!!*



Volume control also.


----------



## Serpenteye (Mar 11, 2004)

I'll take the Rod of Absorption, but not at a price of 50k. I'm willing to pay 30'000 gps for it.
Rather than choose a signature item now I'm going to spend my money on several lesser items. Some high level pearls of power, a ring of Telekinesis, a book of Constitution. I'm also going to research some DC 0 Epic buff Spells, but that's not going to cost anything.


----------



## Serpenteye (Mar 11, 2004)

A couple of Epic spells for your review.

*Awareness*
Seed: Fortify
Casting Time: 10 minutes.
Effect: +46 enhancement bonus to Wisdom for 180 hours

DC: 17+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+90 = 123

Mitigating Factors: Casting time of 10 minutes: -18, Backlash 30d6: -30, 45 casters contributing 1level slots: -45, 10 casters contributing 2level slots: -30. Sum Mitigating: 123.

DC: 0. Cost: 0 gp, 0 xp. Time to develop: 0 days.


*Apoteosis*
Seed: Fortify
Casting Time: 10 minutes.
Effect: +46 enhancement bonus to Charisma for 180 hours

DC: 17+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+90 = 123

Mitigating Factors: Casting time of 10 minutes: -18, Backlash 30d6: -30, 45 casters contributing 1level slots: -45, 10 casters contributing 2level slots: -30. Sum Mitigating: 123.

DC: 0. Cost: 0 gp, 0 xp. Time to develop: 0 days.


----------



## Wrahn (Mar 11, 2004)

Um, those spells would certainly kill you.  Backlash is for every round of the spells effect, not just the initial casting.  (for a total of 3,240,000d6 damage over 180 hours)  

Also, if you look at the examples they give, you can increase the casting time to 11 minutes for -20.  

Last point is that there are specific rules about giving your followers PC classes in the epic level handbook, I am not sure that you will have enough 1st or 3rd level clerics to be able to do this. (I think PC class levels count as double, Also I think all followers have average stats so they couldn't muster the 12 wisdom to be able to cast 2nd level spells, though I think 11 is still considered average)

Nice try though.


----------



## Velenne (Mar 11, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> ELH, rules make for a very high ego, but what do you mean by the "new" rules.  I'm looking at making Brystasia’s sword intelligent also.
> 
> Volume control also.




"New" being the 3.5 rules that are handily priced out for you.  I'll try to use those and other existing items as a guideline.

Ah yes, and volume control.


----------



## Serpenteye (Mar 11, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Um, those spells would certainly kill you.  Backlash is for every round of the spells effect, not just the initial casting.  (for a total of 3,240,000d6 damage over 180 hours)




Not in this game . PA house-ruled backlash to a one time cost.


			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> Also, if you look at the examples they give, you can increase the casting time to 11 minutes for -20.




Thanks. 



			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> Last point is that there are specific rules about giving your followers PC classes in the epic level handbook, I am not sure that you will have enough 1st or 3rd level clerics to be able to do this. (I think PC class levels count as double, Also I think all followers have average stats so they couldn't muster the 12 wisdom to be able to cast 2nd level spells, though I think 11 is still considered average)
> 
> Nice try though.




There's nothing in the (non epic) Leadership feat that disallows followers from having PC-classes, and no mention of that in the SRD about epic leadership.
Even if you are right I can still have over 150 adepts, and they can all cast 1st level divine spells. (Wether the mitigating casters in an epic level spell are arcane or divine casters is entirely irrelevant, btw.)
I'm sure there are plenty of NPCs who have one stat higher than 12, and those who don't have a mental stat at least that high probably wouldn't become spellcasters in the first place.


----------



## Wrahn (Mar 11, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Not in this game . PA house-ruled backlash to a one time cost.




Quite honestly, I think that is a mistake for the very reason you are demonstrating, but hey, it is up to Paxus.



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> There's nothing in the (non epic) Leadership feat that disallows followers from having PC-classes, and no mention of that in the SRD about epic leadership.
> Even if you are right I can still have over 150 adepts, and they can all cast 1st level divine spells. (Wether the mitigating casters in an epic level spell are arcane or divine casters is entirely irrelevant, btw.)
> I'm sure there are plenty of NPCs who have one stat higher than 12, and those who don't have a mental stat at least that high probably wouldn't become spellcasters in the first place.




Again, this is off the top of my head, but I think that non Commoners cost 1.5 per level.  I will look when I get home (don't have the rule book here and I am not as sure of that ratio).

Since we are at epic levels, I believe the ELH rules supercede the normal rules (which seems only fair since we are using the rest of the epic level rules).

Something else to consider:  Every seven and a half days your followers gather and essentially worship you (give you their energy)?  Isn't this more than a bit hypocritical of Sandorel?


----------



## Serpenteye (Mar 11, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Again, this is off the top of my head, but I think that non Commoners cost 1.5 per level.  I will look when I get home (don't have the rule book here and I am not as sure of that ratio).
> 
> Since we are at epic levels, I believe the ELH rules supercede the normal rules (which seems only fair since we are using the rest of the epic level rules).




Seriously? 

We may be at epic levels but I'm still using a non epic feat (until I pick up Epic Leadership). I guess it could go either way.  



			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> Something else to consider:  Every seven and a half days your followers gather and essentially worship you (give you their energy)?  Isn't this more than a bit hypocritical of Sandorel?




 

I'm sure I can come up with a suitable justification when it comes to that. It's really more a question of bartering than of worship. I have my plans to assure that they get very well compensated for their work.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 11, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Since we are at epic levels, I believe the ELH rules supercede the normal rules (which seems only fair since we are using the rest of the epic level rules).




Can stay long but I honestly don't consider a person to be epic in till you hit that first feat.  Neither Antilles nor Brystasia has passed that threshold.


----------



## Wrahn (Mar 11, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Can stay long but I honestly don't consider a person to be epic in till you hit that first feat.  Neither Antilles nor Brystasia has passed that threshold.




Read the sidebar on page 25 of the ELH.  Once your ECL+Level(s)/Hit dice exceeds 20, you qualify to take epic feats.  You retain normal BAB and save progression until you hit 20 hit dice/level however. (It's like the best of both worlds)

And about the followers, yeah, seriously, they really hose followers over.  I think this is a two fold reason, first because at epic level you can get some pretty butt-kicking followers and second to prevent what you are doing or at least make it more painful.

Isn't that what Gods do though?  Worship me and I will give you all benefits?


----------



## Serpenteye (Mar 11, 2004)

Do you worship your boss at work, Wrahn?


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 11, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Not in this game . PA house-ruled backlash to a one time cost.




Only for spells of modest duration, such as an in-combat buff.  Looking at this, I think I'll make it per hour; you can boost yourself for a short period of time at a small cost, but not a one-time shot for that length of time.  To allow this would also allow backlash on a permanent spell to be a one-time thing, and that's burning down the floodgates, not just opening them.


----------



## Endur (Mar 11, 2004)

The DMG says followers only get npc classes.  Only cohorts can have pc classes.  I'm out of town, or I'd give you a page number.



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> There's nothing in the (non epic) Leadership feat that disallows followers from having PC-classes, and no mention of that in the SRD about epic leadership.


----------



## Endur (Mar 11, 2004)

It is Paxus call, but I'm not sure that sidebar is valid in 3.5.  I think the re-release of the ELH will eliminate it.  (For instance, Dragons have to be old, which means 24 or so hit dice mininum to have epic feats in 3.5, even though their ECL is somewhere around 40 when they are Old).



			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> Read the sidebar on page 25 of the ELH.  Once your ECL+Level(s)/Hit dice exceeds 20, you qualify to take epic feats.  You retain normal BAB and save progression until you hit 20 hit dice/level however. (It's like the best of both worlds)


----------



## Endur (Mar 11, 2004)

I didn't know you could develop ELH spells for free.



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> A couple of Epic spells for your review.
> *Awareness*
> *Apoteosis*


----------



## Serpenteye (Mar 11, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> I didn't know you could develop ELH spells for free.




The cost is derived from the spellcraft DC of the spell. If the DC is 0 the cost is 0.


----------



## Serpenteye (Mar 11, 2004)

In post #103 Paxus allowed me to gain followers of PC-classes. 



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Serpenteye
> Is it ok to make all Sandorel's followers clerics of his religion and have them live gathered in a small monastery in the outlands? I'm considering befriending a Sorcerer or Wizard for a cohort, what would that require? The nature of a pbp-game makes it unpractical to go around chatting with a lot of strangers, and I wouldn't want to take too much time away from the rest of the party.
> 
> Yes, but "small monastery" is a euphemism for "a collection of cottages and a few gardens." Anything fancier would take some cash of your own to build (though the Landlord feat would give you a pretty penny to work with at your level).




--


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 11, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> It is Paxus call, but I'm not sure that sidebar is valid in 3.5.  I think the re-release of the ELH will eliminate it.  (For instance, Dragons have to be old, which means 24 or so hit dice mininum to have epic feats in 3.5, even though their ECL is somewhere around 40 when they are Old).




That's inconsistent.  The consistent rule is that epic requires 21+ hit dice, so that is what I will use.


----------



## Wrahn (Mar 11, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Do you worship your boss at work, Wrahn?




Depends on how you look at it.  Is your God your Boss?


----------



## Wrahn (Mar 11, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> That's inconsistent.  The consistent rule is that epic requires 21+ hit dice, so that is what I will use.




This is the first line of the 3.5 SRD Epic rules:


> Regardless of the method used to attain 21st level, once a character reaches that point he or she is considered an epic character.




In essense Endur you are incorrect.  The sidebar rules from ELH pg 25 stand in 3.5.  Monster are treated inconsistently all over the place where epic rules are concerned, for instance, they get normal BAB progression beyond 20 HD and Normal save progression too.  Inconsistent?  Yes.  Standard through out the rules?  Yes again.  Essentially they are saying PCs are different.

Not trying to play rules lawyer here and will accept whatever ruling you make Paxus, just trying to get you all the information I have.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 12, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> This is the first line of the 3.5 SRD Epic rules:
> 
> 
> In essense Endur you are incorrect.  The sidebar rules from ELH pg 25 stand in 3.5.  Monster are treated inconsistently all over the place where epic rules are concerned, for instance, they get normal BAB progression beyond 20 HD and Normal save progression too.  Inconsistent?  Yes.  Standard through out the rules?  Yes again.  Essentially they are saying PCs are different.
> ...




I base my decision on the way in which feats are handled.  Everyone who gets feats gets them at every third HD, not every third ECL.  Therefore, it seems that epic access to feats should also be based on HD.  As BAB, saves, etc only derive from hit dice, epic usages of those should only come from HD.  Monsters may be inconsistent, but PCs shouldn't be.


----------



## Wrahn (Mar 12, 2004)

I am home now and the Optional rule is on pg 37 of the ELH, basically if your follower is not an Expert, Warrior, or Commoner then it is considered 2 levels higher than it's actual level, if it has PC class levels it is considere 3 levels higher and if they have levels in a prestige class it is considered 5 levels higher.


----------



## Wrahn (Mar 12, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> I base my decision on the way in which feats are handled.  Everyone who gets feats gets them at every third HD, not every third ECL.  Therefore, it seems that epic access to feats should also be based on HD.  As BAB, saves, etc only derive from hit dice, epic usages of those should only come from HD.  Monsters may be inconsistent, but PCs shouldn't be.




So is your character level equal to your ECL + HD/Class Levels or is just equal to HD/Class levels?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 12, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> I base my decision on the way in which feats are handled.  Everyone who gets feats gets them at every third HD, not every third ECL.  Therefore, it seems that epic access to feats should also be based on HD.




All this works for me as I said I didn't consider Brystasia epic at all, or at least not yet.  My ECL isn't high enough to really warrant any spells rules.  With an LA of +2 my ECL will never breach 21 or higher when you can gain a feat.  It would need to be a LA +3.


----------



## Serpenteye (Mar 12, 2004)

So, PA. How many follower Clerics does Sandorel have, and what are their levels? Are you using Wrahn's optional rule from the Epic level handbook or are you going with the core rules?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 12, 2004)

Does anyone need to post anything before we start the next day?

Serpenteye: I know that Sandorel teleported to a school of magic, or something like that, with someone else on his mind besides getting away from Brystasia.  Do you need to take care of that still?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 12, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Something else to consider:  Every seven and a half days your followers gather and essentially worship you (give you their energy)?  Isn't this more than a bit hypocritical of Sandorel?






			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> I'm sure I can come up with a suitable justification when it comes to that. It's really more a question of bartering than of worship. I have my plans to assure that they get very well compensated for their work.




No it shows that the people who do not worship gods are not stupid as I doubt their is a single mortal out their that can destroy a deity of considerable power and knocking of some weak worthless god is pointless.  Just because they do not worship a deity does not mean there is just total anarchy within their group.  If you look at any organization you will see a power structure of some type.  It might not be official and laid out in stone like the military but even a high school cliché has an informal power structure.


----------



## Endur (Mar 12, 2004)

Wrahn,

I wasn't referring to the SRD/ELH as 3.5.  In my opinion, the SRD/ELH is still 3.0 with some minor updates for 3.5 DR.  WOTC is going to be releasing an updated version of the ELH (probably with a different name) sometime in the next year or so.    

I agree with your opinion regarding the current SRD/ELH.



			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> In essense Endur you are incorrect.  The sidebar rules from ELH pg 25 stand in 3.5.


----------



## Velenne (Mar 12, 2004)

*Proposed Armor Upgrade*

Here is my attempt to make Antillis both more self-sufficient, a greater threat, and akin to his inspiration, the Predator!

~~

*Skin of the Hunter*
Enhanced by the expanding will of the Xill Hunter, Antillis, this armor is designed for the purpose of protecting its weilder and his Pack (those he views as comrades).  Its four arms and enormous size are obvious traits of its original owner.  In addition, its miscellaneous delicate parts are surprisingly well-suited to travel across the Ethereal plane.
*EGO:*: TBD

*INT:* 19
*WIS:* 19
*CHA:* 10

The Skin can communicate telepathically with its wearer and verbally with others.  It speaks and reads all languages, and can cast _Read Magic_ at will.  It also has Darkvision, Blindsense and Hearing out to a range of 120 feet.  When speaking, the Skin has a dry, deep voice that seems to hum with electricity.

*Lesser Powers:* _Cure Moderate Wounds_ (2d8+3) 3/day, _Faerie Fire_ 3/day, Sustains wearer without air, Grants Evasion to wearer.

*Greater Powers:* Item can cast _Magic Circle vs. Evil_ at will, Item can cast _Heal_ on wearer (CL 11) 1/day.

*Special Purpose Dedicated Power:*  When in combat, Item can cast _Scorching Ray_ (Maximized for 3 x 24 fire damage; All rays must target the same creature.). 

~~

Pricing: 
Upgrade to Intelligence: 15,000 - 2,000 (existing intellect) = 13,000.
Sustains weilder without air: (As Ioun Stone, Halfed for slotted) 9,000.
Evasion: (As ring) 25,000.
Magic Circle: 16,000.
Heal: (As command word item 1/day) 23,760.
Scorching Ray:  (This one was tricky.  I wanted to simulate the Predator effect so I used the DMG's example of _Mass Inflict Light Wounds, Prying Eyes,_ and _Song of Discord_ as other 5th level spells that are Dedicated Powers.  The Ray is 2nd level, but maximized for 5th.  The caveat of targeting the same creature was for flavor, but could also be used for balance.)  81,000.

Total adjustment: 167,760

I left some money in case it requires further arbitration, or if I could add yet further abilities to it.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 12, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> I'll take the Rod of Absorption, but not at a price of 50k. I'm willing to pay 30'000 gps for it.



I think that's reasonable enough under one consideration:  If you later on absorb the power of rod for your signature item you owe the rest of the members the reaming balance.  (if you do absorb it but have used it some and its value is now worth less than 30,000 didn't don't worry about the above clause.)

I think we are all okay if we "give" you 5,000 GP each.  




			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Rather than choose a signature item now I'm going to spend my money on several lesser items. Some high level pearls of power, a ring of Telekinesis, a book of Constitution. I'm also going to research some DC 0 Epic buff Spells, but that's not going to cost anything.




Note: I think you’ll have to get the items commissioned like Brystasia did, but PA can answer your question better.  I would make a list and go from there. 

Good luck on the book I’ve asked about one for wisdom and have been told it will cost far more than the DMG value of it.


----------



## Serpenteye (Mar 12, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Does anyone need to post anything before we start the next day?
> 
> Serpenteye: I know that Sandorel teleported to a school of magic, or something like that, with someone else on his mind besides getting away from Brystasia.  Do you need to take care of that still?




Not really. He was planning on doing some research about epic level magic, but that's not really necessary and can be handled off screen. I'm ready to move on, as soon as I know how great my (and my organizations) capacity for casting epic spells is.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 12, 2004)

Velenne said:
			
		

> *EGO:*: TBD




FYI: Its ego is going to be considerable higher than your Will Save...


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 12, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Not really. He was planning on doing some research about epic level magic, but that's not really necessary and can be handled off screen.



Works for me, I shall start the next day then.   (Armor, shackles, key while Conan has the sword right?)

Endur, would Conan give the sword to Brystasia so she can have it looked at?



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> I'm ready to move on, as soon as I know how great my (and my organizations) capacity for casting epic spells is.



The more trouble I see you having with Epic Level spells and such the less I want any part of it.  :\


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 12, 2004)

Endur, is your new IC post a recap of auction day with new or is the next day?  

Sorry for be lost but I sort of figured your day was spent with the griffin chick, and your evening/night was spent looking for a fight.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 12, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> So is your character level equal to your ECL + HD/Class Levels or is just equal to HD/Class levels?




For terms of feats, skills, and epic v. normal BAB and saves, character level is equal to total HD.  For terms of experience, it is equal to ECL.



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> So, PA. How many follower Clerics does Sandorel have, and what are their levels? Are you using Wrahn's optional rule from the Epic level handbook or are you going with the core rules?




They can be any NPC class at the list level, or any PC class at 1-list.  They'd likely all be adepts and experts (remember, they do have basic material needs), but you may have clerics should you so choose.  Also note that not all magical items can be purchased off the shelf; wands, scrolls, and potions can be, and you'll probably have decent luck shopping around, but may have difficulty finding certain choice items (books of stat boost, Staves of Power, etc), or may have to pay above book price.

Velenne, looks good.


----------



## Velenne (Mar 12, 2004)

Kewl.  There might be more (as I still have resources to work with), but it can wait.  I'm ready to move on as soon as everyone else is.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 12, 2004)

Velenne said:
			
		

> Total adjustment: 167,760




Velenne, sweet glad to see it got approved.    Since you invested so much on your armor I feel like pawning some of these unwanted items on you. 

Your bag of loot contained the fallowing items insteed of some coins that you canalized for your armor:
Headband of Intellect +6: 36,000
Staff of Frost, 50 charges: 56,250
Pink Ioun Stone: 8,000
Gloves of Dexterity: 16,000
Scrolls of many things: 28,150
Wand of fireball: 22,500

Total: 166,900

Brystasia, will pocket the ring of wizardry for her own signature when the time is right.  (It's light and won't add any real weight to her.)

All the items are gone here is how it broke down:

```
Bracers of Armor +8 : (Conan)
Headband of Intellect +6 : (destroyed and cannibalized by Antillis)
Staff of Frost, 50 charges : (destroyed and cannibalized by Antillis) 
Pink Ioun Stone : (destroyed and cannibalized by Antillis)
Ring of Wizardry I : (Brystasia)
Ring of Protection +3 : (Vilya)
Gloves of Dexterity +4 : (destroyed and cannibalized by Antillis)
Rod of Absorption (contains 5 9th level spells) : (Sandorel)
Wand of fireball, 10th level, 50 charges : (destroyed and cannibalized by Antillis)
Scrolls of: Fireball (10th level), Greater Teleport, Acid Fog, Incendiary Cloud, Shapechange, Wail of the Banshee, Bigby's Clenched Fist, Horrid Wilting, Maze, Summon IX : (destroyed and cannibalized by Antillis)
Sword: (Conan)
```

We still don't know how much each person got cause we still do not know how much the sword is or how much the armor truly is worth.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 12, 2004)

*Additional Rules for Signature Weapons*

*Additional Rules for Signature Weapons*

Here are some additional rules that have been addressed.  (I'll make a web page with the rules for quick reference when we have them all knocked out.)

Q) Can the signature item store coins that haven’t been used?  If so I imagine the limit is the max based upon the chart and character level.  Also is there a time frame that they would need to be used by? 

A)  you can only make sacrifice with a specific upgrade in mind; excess that is consumed will be wasted.


Q) What happens if the signature item is destroyed?

A) It's on the difficult side, worst comes to worst, a quest of some sort will allow it to be remade without full cost.


----------



## Velenne (Mar 12, 2004)

Antillis, in his own special way I'll work out IC soon, will request the following item be commissioned during their downtime:

_Hunter's Vengeance_ - +2 Vicious, Keen, Large, Cold Iron Guisarme of Evil Outsider Bane

(9 * 2) * 2 = 36 gp for Large and Cold Iron
+300 gp for Masterwork
+2000 gp to enchant Cold Iron
+50,000 gp of enchantments
=52,336 gp 

He should have 67,003 gp left after upgrading his armor, leaving him ultimately with 14,667 gp (or 1,466 pp as he prefers to carry it) to spare.  If we end up with an extra 6k apiece, I'll just _have_ to pick up a Ring of Invisibility to finish out the build.  

Damage: 2d6+2+2d6+STR*1.5 (19-20/x3)
--+2/+2d6+2 vs. Evil Outsiders


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 12, 2004)

Velenne said:
			
		

> Antillis, in his own special way I'll work out IC soon, will request the following item be commissioned during their downtime.




If need be Brystasia is more than willing to help you with no additional cost of course to you of course. 

Note:  Commissioned item may not be done before the end of our downtime.  I don’t know about the rest of you but waiting half a year between adventures is just not something Brystasia wants to consider.  Being famous in a city the size of Waterdeep would become tedious no matter how much you love your fellow humanoids.  

Note: that’s totally out of character.  In character she probably only realizes the effect and not the cause.  She simply wants to continue Sune's work with finding rare items of beauty.


----------



## Serpenteye (Mar 12, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> They can be any NPC class at the list level, or any PC class at 1-list.  They'd likely all be adepts and experts (remember, they do have basic material needs), but you may have clerics should you so choose.  Also note that not all magical items can be purchased off the shelf; wands, scrolls, and potions can be, and you'll probably have decent luck shopping around, but may have difficulty finding certain choice items (books of stat boost, Staves of Power, etc), or may have to pay above book price.




Sounds like a reasonable compromise. They will mostly be adepts, with a handful of low level clerics to lead them. 
Is this ok?

Leadership Score: 21 (level) +5 (charisma) +2 (stronghold) -1 (moves around a lot) = 27 (25 is max for non epic leadership)

1 17th level cohort (not yet found)
99 1st level Adepts. 
4 1st level Aristocrats.
32 1st level Experts.

13 1st level Clerics.
7 2nd level Clerics.
4 3rd level Clerics.
2 4th level Clerics.
2 5th level Clerics.
----

Sandorel is prepared to shop around quite a bit to find what he wants, for a reasonable price. If he can't find it for sale in Waterdeep then maybe some of it can be found in Sigil or Dis, or the city of Brass, or in one of the other great planar metropolises.


----------



## Endur (Mar 12, 2004)

If you explained why, he might.  

Remember that Conan is not a great believer in magic.  

As far as he is concerned, he interprets the previous priest of smith's words as meaning that the sword's substance fell from the heavens (i.e. its not from around here) and that's why none of the smiths had ever seen the strange color of the metal before.

Conan would be more interested in finding out stories about the previous wielder of the blade and the smith that made it.



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Endur, would Conan give the sword to Brystasia so she can have it looked at?


----------



## Endur (Mar 12, 2004)

Not sure.  Probably the next day or two.  I'm assuming we're spending at least a week in Waterdeep.



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Endur, is your new IC post a recap of auction day with new or is the next day?
> 
> Sorry for be lost but I sort of figured your day was spent with the griffin chick, and your evening/night was spent looking for a fight.


----------



## Wrahn (Mar 12, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> For terms of feats, skills, and epic v. normal BAB and saves, character level is equal to total HD.  For terms of experience, it is equal to ECL.




There are several spells which use character level (like Divine Power).  The sidebar rule in the ELH was very clear that your character level was equal to your ECL + Class/Hit Dice, but if you aren't using that I guess I am still at a loss in your explaination, what character level is.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 12, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Sandorel is prepared to shop around quite a bit to find what he wants, for a reasonable price. If he can't find it for sale in Waterdeep then maybe some of it can be found in Sigil or Dis, or the city of Brass, or in one of the other great planar metropolises.



You forgot to mention Skullport.  



			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> There are several spells which use character level (like Divine Power).  The sidebar rule in the ELH was very clear that your character level was equal to your ECL + Class/Hit Dice, but if you aren't using that I guess I am still at a loss in your explaination, what character level is.




Let me try to help.  Brystasia is a 19th level character, she doesn't have her ability bonus for level 20 nor does she have the max level skill for that level.  Everything she is and everything that she does is based upon that level 19.

For her to make 20th level she needs to gain enough experience for a normal character to make level 22.  (She has a LA of +2)



			
				Endur said:
			
		

> If you explained why, he might.



Of course, Brystasia isn't going to try and grapple it away from your nor would she try to steal it from you. 



			
				Endur said:
			
		

> As far as he is concerned, he interprets the previous priest of smith's words as meaning that the sword's substance fell from the heavens (i.e. its not from around here) and that's why none of the smiths had ever seen the strange color of the metal before.



Very true but Conan is going to be in for a shock when Brystaisa new blade has the same coloring.  Since Brystaisa commioned the sword with this metal I suspect she would know something about it or at least know someone who would. (Master Tundraleaf)



			
				Endur said:
			
		

> Conan would be more interested in finding out stories about the previous wielder of the blade and the smith that made it.



If we found out more its properties it might happen but no guarantees. 



			
				Endur said:
			
		

> Not sure.  Probably the next day or two.  I'm assuming we're spending at least a week in Waterdeep.



So he brought Brystasia something else?  As for how long we are going to be in Waterdeep, it sort of depends.  Commissioning of items takes time, but I would rather go somewhere while they are being commissioned.  You did hear rumors of Undermountain.  Maybe you should make a suggestion to Brystasia about going there.  I'm sure it's halls might contain a treasure or too.


----------



## Dalamar (Mar 12, 2004)

Level= your levels in a single class (and technically, if you have monstrous HD, you have that many levels in the approriate race). This is used to determine determine abilities of the class.
Character Level= The total sum of your levels in all classes and monstrous HD, used to determine your maximum rank for skills, and when you gain feats and ability increases. 
Level Adjustment (LA)= a modifier that shows how much more powerful a creature is than it monstrous HD (or Character Level, in case of a creature that has levels in other classes in addition to monstrous HD) would otherwise indicate.
Equivalent Character Level (ECL)= The sum of your Character Level and Level Adjustment, used to determine how much experience you need to go up a level and how much wealth you should have (this is the number that should be equal for all characters in a party so that the party is 'balanced'). For standard PHB races, this is equal to their Character Level.

Edit - These are, to my knowledge, the official terms as of now.


----------



## Serpenteye (Mar 12, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> You forgot to mention Skullport.




A few Holy Words, a Fire Storm or two and an Earthquake if I feel like being particularly brutal... I doubt Skullport could put up any serious resistance to a fully buffed Sandorel. 
It's really too bad that he's too Good to murder hundreds of people out of mere greed.


----------



## Wrahn (Mar 12, 2004)

Thanks guys, for the help.

Everyone runs their games slightly differently, it is a matter of adapting to the rules of the particular DM as I am attempting to do with Paxus.

Officially, the rules tend to be murky when it comes to ECL and how it effects character level, except in one place, the Sidebar rule in the Epic Level Handbook, which unequivocally states the follow:

Character Level = ECL + Hit Dice + Class Levels

You use Hit Dice + Class Level to determine when you get feats and stats upgrades.

I have found no where else in the rules that states this or specifically contradicts it either, some indicate it by presumption, but it can usually be interpretted another way (such as the 3.5 Epic rules SRD first line).

So I believe Paxus is reintpreting the rules (which is fine and his perogative) I am just looking for clarification from him about how he is doing it.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 12, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Thanks guys, for the help.
> 
> Everyone runs their games slightly differently, it is a matter of adapting to the rules of the particular DM as I am attempting to do with Paxus.
> 
> ...




The hit die rule is more consistent with most features; it is, however, a problem with play balance, as epic features are specifically design to allow balance at epic levels of play, not at 21+ HD.  Therefore, I think I will rule that epic BAB, epic saves, and access to epic feats begins at ECL 21.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 12, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Character Level = ECL + Hit Dice + Class Levels



Sweet!  Brystaisa a level 40 character! 

CL= 21 + 0 + 19

I think you meant LA instead of ECL. 



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> The hit die rule is more consistent with most features; it is, however, a problem with play balance, as epic features are specifically design to allow balance at epic levels of play, not at 21+ HD.  Therefore, I think I will rule that epic BAB, epic saves, and access to epic feats begins at ECL 21.



We I do agree that LA becoming more punishing at higher levels so the rule does make sense.  WoTC has realized that and made this ruling for epic levels but personally I would rather see our LA lowered over time and not simply the end of punishment at Epic Level.

I'll remove the Divine Champion additions and redo everything for last level using the epic progression.


----------



## Serpenteye (Mar 12, 2004)

New and improved

*Awareness*
Seed: Fortify
Casting Time: 11 minutes.
Effect: +46 enhancement bonus to Wisdom for 180 hours

DC: 17+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+90 = 123

Mitigating Factors: Casting time of 11 minutes: -20, 88 casters contributing 1level slots: -88, 5 casters contributing 2level slots: -15. Sum Mitigating: 123.

DC: 0. Cost: 0 gp, 0 xp. Time to develop: 0 days.


*Apotheosis*
Seed: Fortify
Casting Time: 10 minutes.
Effect: +46 enhancement bonus to Charisma for 180 hours

DC: 17+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+90 = 123

Mitigating Factors: Casting time of 11 minutes: -20, 88 casters contributing 1level slots: -88, 5 casters contributing 2level slots: -15. Sum Mitigating: 123.

DC: 0. Cost: 0 gp, 0 xp. Time to develop: 0 days.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 12, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> A few Holy Words, a Fire Storm or two and an Earthquake if I feel like being particularly brutal... I doubt Skullport could put up any serious resistance to a fully buffed Sandorel.



No it couldn't but are old shopping grounds could be fun again. 



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> It's really too bad that he's too Good to murder hundreds of people out of mere greed.



No, that’s a good quality their. 

You'll have to show Brystasia how to cast that enchantment to charisma spell when and if she ever qualifies for it.


----------



## Dalamar (Mar 12, 2004)

Damn, I want one of those spells for Dexterity. +20 to attack, Init, AC, Ref, some skills... Yummy


----------



## Serpenteye (Mar 13, 2004)

Dalamar said:
			
		

> Damn, I want one of those spells for Dexterity. +20 to attack, Init, AC, Ref, some skills... Yummy




 This is just the beginning... 

(hint: the Summon Seed)


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 13, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Sandorel is prepared to shop around quite a bit to find what he wants, for a reasonable price. If he can't find it for sale in Waterdeep then maybe some of it can be found in Sigil or Dis, or the city of Brass, or in one of the other great planar metropolises.



Yeah you can add Brystasia to that list...  She needs a Tome of Understanding badly.  

Actually she needs a redesign but hey what can you do.  

BTW: I still haven't updated for the epic progression.


----------



## Serpenteye (Mar 14, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Yeah you can add Brystasia to that list...  She needs a Tome of Understanding badly.




Maybe we can take a cruise around the multiverse together? (Off screen so that it wouldn't take months in real time)


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 14, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Maybe we can take a cruise around the multiverse together? (Off screen so that it wouldn't take months in real time)



That works for me but I think your trying to get in her dress also...


----------



## Endur (Mar 14, 2004)

When I first saw these two epic spells, I thought they were too powerful.

Then I realized what the limitations are.  

First, they have to be prepared, so even if they have a zero day development time, they have to be developed before you prepare them.  And a 21st level caster only has two epic spell slots a day.  

Second, if one of the followers doesn't contribute his spell slot (for whatever reason, mad at his boss, distracted, sick, already cast his spell that day, out of town on business, etc.), the epic spell automatically fails.  And with an epic caster only being able to cast two spells a day, that is a serious limitation.

If the follower does contribute his spell slot, but he fails a concentration check (for whatever reason), then the Epic Spell can still be cast, albeit the Epic caster has to make a higher spellcraft check.



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> *Awareness*
> *Apoteosis*


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 15, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> When I first saw these two epic spells, I thought they were too powerful.




What Endur says might be true but I still think they’re too powerful and the feedback seems like it would be easy to counter the feedback damage.  

I know *Apoteosis* bothers me and if Sandorel could find someway to pray during the damage then *Awareness* could easily break the game with bonus spells.  Anyhow on the Charisma spell, *Apoteosis*, it can completely replace anything Brystasia can bring to the party quickly making her nothing more than a cheerleader in a Sunite outfit.  (I figure that on the fact that a +23 to charisma checks is higher than Brystasia highest skill check (diplomacy +22)

Anyhow thats my thoughts and feelings I don't expect nor want, them to change the game any.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 15, 2004)

FYI: 

Dalamar is going to be around less for the next two weeks.

Link


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 15, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> FYI:
> Dalamar is going to be around less for the next two weeks.




I'm also going to be out of contact for much of tomorrow, and the entirety of Wednesday, for the same reason as Dalamar.  Damn finals.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 15, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> I'm also going to be out of contact for much of tomorrow, and the entirety of Wednesday, for the same reason as Dalamar.  Damn finals.



Well good luck then!   I imagine we can manage for a day or two.


----------



## Serpenteye (Mar 15, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Second, if one of the followers doesn't contribute his spell slot (for whatever reason, mad at his boss, distracted, sick, already cast his spell that day, out of town on business, etc.), the epic spell automatically fails.  And with an epic caster only being able to cast two spells a day, that is a serious limitation.
> 
> If the follower does contribute his spell slot, but he fails a concentration check (for whatever reason), then the Epic Spell can still be cast, albeit the Epic caster has to make a higher spellcraft check.




The first issue might be a problem, but I have more 1st level casters from leadership than are strictly required for the spell. If less than a dozen are sick at the same time I can easily replace them. Almost all of my people are going to have a Wisdom of 12 or higher, even if they use the lowest array, and they will therefore have one bonus spell a day.
The second issue is no problem at all. Since the spell is DC 0 Sandorel can handle an increase in the DC fairly easily, as long as it is 27 or less.

I know the spells are powerful, and one of the reasons for coming up with them was to impress Brystasia. With a Charisma of 60 Sandorel will be more attractive than most Gods . Brystasia will still have her feminine wiles, though, and be able to twist the minds of the other half of the population. They will complement each others, and be much more effective for it.


----------



## Wrahn (Mar 15, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> When I first saw these two epic spells, I thought they were too powerful.
> 
> Then I realized what the limitations are.
> 
> First, they have to be prepared, so even if they have a zero day development time, they have to be developed before you prepare them.  And a 21st level caster only has two epic spell slots a day.




Development time is equal to 1 day per 50,000gps of cost (round up).  It costs 0,  take 0 time to develop it is essentially spontaneously developed. 

I have been looking for the quote, but haven't been able to find it, one of the writers of the ELH suggests a minimum DC 10 for epic levels spells.  It is not errated, it was only a suggestion.

High level characters are amazingly mobile, it is more than possible for us to be in the middle of the Abyss, for Sandorel to use Plane Shift and Word of Recall to go home, get the spell cast and be back in 15 minutes (half an hour for both) with Gate.

Serpent Eye,

Is Apoteosis suppose to be Apotheosis?  Apoteosis isn't a word, but being a real word isn't a requirement for it to be the name of the spell.  Apotheosis, on the other hand, means 'exaltation to divine rank or stature; deification.'


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 15, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> I know the spells are powerful, and one of the reasons for coming up with them was to impress Brystasia. With a Charisma of 60 Sandorel will be more attractive than most Gods




She might be impressed for 5 minutes but when she realizes how lonely she is now that you've stolen her spotlight she might not be so impressed and might actually come to despise you for it. 

Women  are fickle and I can’t imagine a half-nymph one…


----------



## Wrahn (Mar 15, 2004)

Paxus,

I am beginning to be worried about Disjunction.  If I set up a contingency to cast a antimagic aura when someone cast Disjunction, would it cast in time to offer protection versus it? (Not perfect protection of course, Disjunction has a chance of ripping the spell down, but it is better than just taking it.)

I am not sure that Antimagic field is an appropriate spell for contingency either.  It is personally effects the caster (it is a spell that is cast on the caster) but I am not sure that is what the intended.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 15, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Paxus,
> 
> I am beginning to be worried about Disjunction.  If I set up a contingency to cast a antimagic aura when someone cast Disjunction, would it cast in time to offer protection versus it? (Not perfect protection of course, Disjunction has a chance of ripping the spell down, but it is better than just taking it.)
> 
> I am not sure that Antimagic field is an appropriate spell for contingency either.  It is personally effects the caster (it is a spell that is cast on the caster) but I am not sure that is what the intended.




It seems perfectly reasonable, and doesn't contradict any of the conditions of Contingency.  The trigger would not be "I am hit with a Disjunction" but "A Disjunction is targeted within 40 feet of me."


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 15, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> I am beginning to be worried about Disjunction.



This worries me allot...  About the only thing Brystasia has going for her is magical equipment.

Anti-magic field scare me also Brystasia wears little armor and produces little damage without the use of magic, though I'm not as bad off as Wrahn I imagine, but this sword that she just commissioned grants the wielder proficiency.  I'm sure that's a magical effect and not just the blade being completely and perfectly balanced right?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 15, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> The trigger would not be "I am hit with a Disjunction" but "A Disjunction is targeted within 40 feet of me."




Sweet!  Meekel has a 5'11 blonde haired shadow now!


----------



## Serpenteye (Mar 15, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Serpent Eye,
> 
> Is Apoteosis suppose to be Apotheosis?  Apoteosis isn't a word, but being a real word isn't a requirement for it to be the name of the spell.  Apotheosis, on the other hand, means 'exaltation to divine rank or stature; deification.'




Oops, my mistake. Thanks for the correction.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 15, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Oops, my mistake. Thanks for the correction.



Maybe you should name it after Brystasia.


----------



## Wrahn (Mar 15, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Sweet!  Meekel has a 5'11 blonde haired shadow now!




Well, not just yet, someone (who will remain nameless) spent a little too much money and doesn't have the liquid assets for the focus required for contingency.  Oh well, back to the adventuring life for (said person without a name).


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 16, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Well, not just yet, someone (who will remain nameless) spent a little too much money and doesn't have the liquid assets for the focus required for contingency.  Oh well, back to the adventuring life for (said person without a name).



Hmmm, I know a nameless blonde who may have spent too much money also...  but we have no rogue so you can still have your shadow if you want it. : D

I'm not trying to be a pain with Brystasia....  I just have a hard time seeing a young maiden who is devoted to a goddess of love and beauty wanting to run off and pay mercenary.  

Also I imagine that Sune, or at least her church, tries to stay as natural as possible when it comes down to sovereign rights of nations or city states.  They have no way really way to protect themselves and if their friendly people would be more willing to let them, or help them, advance their cause.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 16, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Also I imagine that Sune, or at least her church, tries to stay as natural as possible when it comes down to sovereign rights of nations or city states.  They have no way really way to protect themselves and if their friendly people would be more willing to let them, or help them, advance their cause.




They don't engage in open conflict, but are not infrequently involved in mediation; as noted, they have a vested interest in preventing destruction.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 16, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> They don't engage in open conflict, but are not infrequently involved in mediation; as noted, they have a vested interest in preventing destruction.




True enough, I shall edit my post some but I imagine that most of the others are not interested in playing diplomat.  (Post edited.)

Pa, did you see this question?  The sword that Brystasia just commissioned grants the wielder proficiency.  Is this a magical effect or is it just the blade being completely and perfectly balanced right?  I imagine the former, which mean that Brystasia’s proficiency with the blade could easily be taken from her.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 16, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> True enough, I shall edit my post some but I imagine that most of the others are not interested in playing diplomat.  (Post edited.)
> 
> Pa, did you see this question?  The sword that Brystasia just commissioned grants the wielder proficiency.  Is this a magical effect or is it just the blade being completely and perfectly balanced right?  I imagine the former, which mean that Brystasia’s proficiency with the blade could easily be taken from her.




It is a magical property, and thus as vulnerable as any other to suppression or disjunction.  Signature items, though, are less vulnerable to disjunction than a normal item, owing to their stronger connection (and because it'd just be mean to disappear them like that).


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 16, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> It is a magical property, and thus as vulnerable as any other to suppression or disjunction.



Well I guess I should add that to the list of feats I need...  Maybe I should look at the fighter class. 



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Signature items, though, are less vulnerable to disjunction than a normal item, owing to their stronger connection (and because it'd just be mean to disappear them like that).



Sweet!  That’s very good news indeed.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 16, 2004)

Okay, I think I'm finaly happy with my character... 

A few feats got swapped.
Combat Expert (6th feat)  --> Two-Weapon Fighting
Stunning Beauty DC: 29 (7th feat) ---> Improved Two-Weapon Fighting

But this will lead up to perfect Two-Weapon Fighting, and from their I have a few other ideas but I should at least be more effective for the party this way but don’t expect any offensive spells.


----------



## Endur (Mar 16, 2004)

If we're swapping out feats, can I swap out Improved Initiative?  

In that case, I would have taken Weapon Focus as a pre-level 20 feat, and take Overwhelming Critical as my 21st level epic feat.


----------



## Wrahn (Mar 16, 2004)

BS,

If you intend to dual wield, you may want to consider the ambidexterity feat, otherwise you are going to have a hard time hitting with your off hand.  (Unless, of course, I am missing something.)


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 16, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> If you intend to dual wield, you may want to consider the ambidexterity feat, otherwise you are going to have a hard time hitting with your off hand.  (Unless, of course, I am missing something.)



Ambidexterity went the way of dinosaurs and the dodo with 3.5.  It's simply extinct.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 16, 2004)

> "I have never been to Luskan or Mirabar. What can you tell us of these places?"




PA, What would Brystasia know of these places...?


----------



## Wrahn (Mar 16, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Ambidexterity went the way of dinosaurs and the dodo with 3.5.  It's simply extinct.




You're right, I should stop looking at the minutea and start looking at the big picture.  I wonder if that is in response to making Power attack more powerful for the two handers.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 16, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> You're right, I should stop looking at the minutea and start looking at the big picture.  I wonder if that is in response to making Power attack more powerful for the two handers.



No big deal I double check to make sure it's truly gone once or twice myself.  I think it's gone simply because it's take so many feats to do it.  I mean even with perfect two-weapon fighting you still have a negative for using a weapon in your off hand.  (Usually a -2 cause it's usually small.)


----------



## Velenne (Mar 16, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> You're right, I should stop looking at the minutea and start looking at the big picture.  I wonder if that is in response to making Power attack more powerful for the two handers.




Perhaps, but it still doesn't even come close to balancing out.  I have yet to see an instance where 2-Weapon Fighter beats a 2-Handed Fighter, all other factors being equal.  Ah well, that's another discussion.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 16, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> PA, What would Brystasia know of these places...?



Anything in the sections of FRCS players are supposed to read.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 16, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Anything in the sections of FRCS players are supposed to read.



Rog, I'll write something up when I get home...  I don't have that kind of information stored in my head.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 16, 2004)

Velenne said:
			
		

> Perhaps, but it still doesn't even come close to balancing out.  I have yet to see an instance where 2-Weapon Fighter beats a 2-Handed Fighter, all other factors being equal.  Ah well, that's another discussion.



Lets have this discussion, as I'm rather curious to hear everyone opinion but I would imagine that someone of Brystasia limited strength is more capable of doing more damage with more attacks but I will admit that’s based upon gut feeling and nothing else.


----------



## Wrahn (Mar 16, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Lets have this discussion, as I'm rather curious to hear everyone opinion but I would imagine that someone of Brystasia limited strength is more capable of doing more damage with more attacks but I will admit that’s based upon gut feeling and nothing else.




This assumes all attacks hit, as they have the same chance to hit and crit, there should be no difference.  It assumes perfect two weapon fighting and exotic weapon proficiency: Bastard Sword (require 5 feats and a 15 dex) compared to a greatsword power attacking for two (making the chances to hit the same, requiring 1 feat).  The advantage goes to the Two Handed weapon initially.

These numbers ignore strength, because with perfect two weapon fighting it comes out the same:

1d10+1d6 (9 average) x4 = 36 
Versus
2d6+3 (10 average) x4 = 40

Now assume that all weapons involved are +5, advantage goes to the dual wielder

1d10 +5 + 1d6 +5 (average of 19) x4 = 76 
Versus 
2d6+8 (average 15) x 4 = 60

Now assume that all weapons are +5 and the combatants are hasted (Note at this point, strength become relevant, at 57 Str or lower, advantage does to the Dual Wielder, 58 Strength or higher it goes to the Two handed weapon wielder.

1d10 + 5 + STR + (1d10 + 5 + STR + 1d6 + 5 + ½ STR) x 4 =(average 86.5 + 7xSTR)
Versus
(2d6 +8 + 1 ½ STR) x5 = (average 75 + 7 ½x STR)

(STR = Strength Modifier)


So the more non-strength damage bonuses you have, the better dual wielding becomes.
Two Handed fighting has several tactical advantages however.  You do more damage on AoO, you do more damage on attack where you can not full attack, You do more burst damage and thus have a greater chance to penetrate damage reduction.

Dual wielding is more expensive than two handed weapon fighting, both in the terms of feats and in terms of equipment (twice as many weapons).  I personally prefer Two Handed weapons as they present more tactical advantages.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 16, 2004)

Two-weapon, however, also provides more opportunity for feats and class abilities to come into play.  A dual-wielder with Improved Buckler Defense can use a shield with impunity.  A dual-wielder with sneak attack or precise strike gets more bonus dice.  Two-Weapon Rend does ridiculous damage.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 16, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Two-weapon, however, also provides more opportunity for feats and class abilities to come into play.




I must admit I'm looking forward to divine might. 



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> A dual-wielder with Improved Buckler Defense can use a shield with impunity.



Its on the list of feats to get.  



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Two-Weapon Rend does ridiculous damage.




Also on the list.


----------



## Dalamar (Mar 16, 2004)

But dual-wielding costs more (weapons, that is). Of course, any effect that gives a flat bonus to damage on all attacks (like sneak attack) is more advantageous to the dual-wielder, since they deal damage more often. 

And Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting requires a Dex of 25, not 15 (I assume that's a typo on your part, Wrahn). This means that in most cases a dual-wielder is better off with two light weapons or special finesseable weapons and Weapon Finesse than trying to also have the Str to compete.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 16, 2004)

Dalamar said:
			
		

> This means that in most cases a dual-wielder is better off with two light weapons or special finesseable weapons and Weapon Finesse than trying to also have the Str to compete.



You use your DEX to hit but you still use your strength for damage.


----------



## Dalamar (Mar 16, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> You use your DEX to hit but you still use your strength for damage.



 I know that, but it doesn't matter how much damage you do if you can't hit at all (which would most likely be the case when you need a Dex of 25 and don't use that for attacks). That is how things are for Vilya: high Dex keeps her safe and allows a good attack bonus, but her damage is quite meager.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 16, 2004)

Dalamar said:
			
		

> I know that, but it doesn't matter how much damage you do if you can't hit at all.




Sorry I didn't mean to sound like I was picking on you their...  I was simply state for all since we had issues with dead feats this morning and Wrahn was talking about 58 strength for assessing damage so damage this morning so it make sense to comment on it.  Personally I think weapon finesse should let you apply your dexterity to both your attack and damage rolls but only on a creature that you can score a  critical on.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 17, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Sorry I didn't mean to sound like I was picking on you their...  I was simply state for all since we had issues with dead feats this morning and Wrahn was talking about 58 strength for assessing damage so damage this morning so it make sense to comment on it.  Personally I think weapon finesse should let you apply your dexterity to both your attack and damage rolls but only on a creature that you can score a  critical on.




Well, there is an epic feat that lets you use your Int bonus instead of your Str for damage.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 17, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Well, there is an epic feat that lets you use your Int bonus instead of your Str for damage.



Indeed and I showed you one that did much of the same for DEX but you said it was unbalanced.  Would you reconsider it as an epic level feat?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 17, 2004)

Again I’m not trying to be difficult with Brystasia, nor is she trying to be so, but there is few deities that Sune doesn’t get along with and the ones that she doesn’t its mostly just an announce with them causing destructions to things she values as pretty. 

The only deity that does hate her with a passion is Umberlee, who she envies for her beauty, but Umberlee is a lesser power with a disorganized church so I don’t think she is what Sandorel is looking for.  Plus I doubt Sune would want to seek out her destruction as her power would just transfer to the other “Gods of Fury” which would probably cause more destruction to objects of beauty in the chaotic infighting.

Sorry, Brystasia isn’t much of a epic “smite the evilness” girl after all she really just a lover…


----------



## Velenne (Mar 17, 2004)

Paxus, I've sent you an email regarding Antillis!


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 17, 2004)

Velenne said:
			
		

> Paxus, I've sent you an email regarding Antillis!



Sweet, I honestly couldn't think of a reason for an email tonight...   

In all honesty, good luck on your finals PA.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 17, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> ooc: I'm ready to move on to the academy.




Sweet, me too.   I'm going to assume that nothing happens to us on our way their so Ender when you reply you can take us straight to the academy if you would like.



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Undermountain is Huge, the biggest dungeon in Faerun. If our characters go down there we'll die of old age before we're done fighting (not so) terrible beasties way beneath our CR.




I think we are just looking for a quick trip to pass the time while some items are being commissioned so Undermountain might be a better choice than Luskan if that is true.

If we are looking for a true epic adventuring we need to find some way to get involved in this Luskan war.



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> I don't really know where we should go, though.



I have an idea, I'll shoot it to PA when I get home from work, I'm in no hurry right now, plus he needs his attention and focus on school right now. 

Edit:
Wrahn, your up in the IC thread.


----------



## Wrahn (Mar 18, 2004)

I have an idea, I am not sure how feasable it is though.  I have an outstanding email to Paxus which should tell me whether or not Meekel will even suggest the idea, however, I am not constrained by such limitations.

Thousands of years ago the Netheril Empire ruled a significant portion of Faerun, they did it based on their superior magical might.  This might was based on information contained in scrolls discovered by an adventurer, whose name was forgotten but the scrolls themselves retain the name the Nether Scrolls which were lost or stolen during the time of the Netheril Empire.

Meekel wishes to find the scrolls and more significantly discover their origins.

Cracking thounds of year old mysteries is no small task, but unknown to the common man, there are a couple of sources of information we could tap.  Both are EXTREMELY dangerous and may not get us the information we want, but it is a starting place.

First are the shades.  The city of the shades is Shadovar and date back to the time of the original Netheril Empire.  The ruler of the city is the same ruler that ruled during the time of Netheril and it is the only flying city to escape the catastrophe that destroyed the others.  The may have knowledge of the Nether Scrolls and may even be willing to share it with us (assuming they get the scrolls when we find them).

The other is not as friendly.  One of the Arcanist Kings of the Netheril Empire is still up and walking around, though he isn't alive.  Larloch is his name and he is an amazingly powerful lich.  He lives in the Warlocks Crypt surrounded by an army of powerful undead, including some lichs which also date back to that time.  Larloch is occasionally chatty with his 'guests.'  And is occasionally just plain insane and not the kind of friendly insane where he talks to bunnies which aren't there, but the homicidal, kill anything that moves, kind of insane.

Anyone have any ideas or comments?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 18, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> I have an idea, I am not sure how feasable it is though.  I have an outstanding email to Paxus which should tell me whether or not Meekel will even suggest the idea, however, I am not constrained by such limitations.




Cool I sent an idea also...  I'm not going to share it though as I like surprises. 



			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> Anyone have any ideas or comments?



I think it works well enough; you have more than a few forgotten places that might have objects that Sune would want the world to see.  If not theirs enough of a chance for Brystasia to go, if all else fails she could always just spread Sune's word and love.


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## Serpenteye (Mar 19, 2004)

I like the idea, Wrahn. Oh yes, I like the idea of my epic-level cleric kicking undead ass for fun and profit.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 19, 2004)

PA, do we get a list of all the swords powers now?  

(That way we can break everything up the coins once and for all.)

Does anyone want the demon armor?  Remember you can take it either for yourself or for your signature item?


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## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 19, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> PA, do we get a list of all the swords powers now?




I'm not going to give you a list of powers until you learn them, but for the sake of cash balance I will tell you that it is worth 205,000.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 19, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> I'm not going to give you a list of powers until you learn them, but for the sake of cash balance I will tell you that it is worth 205,000.




That’s really all I was asking for...  Nice sword their Endur.


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## Serpenteye (Mar 19, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> They do not respond to Identify, nor does Meekel's Lore ability reveal any information about them.




If our characters would make a guesstimation about the value of the manacles and the key, how much would they think they were worth?


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## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 19, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> If our characters would make a guesstimation about the value of the manacles and the key, how much would they think they were worth?




Their value, as far as you can tell, is an issue of supply and demand.  This is the only item you can think of that can hold Abd-Ratep; the number of people who would want to do so is the determinant of its worth.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 19, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Their value, as far as you can tell, is an issue of supply and demand.  This is the only item you can think of that can hold Abd-Ratep; the number of people who would want to do so is the determinant of its worth.



Personally, I don't think we should sale them as we might need them either for Adb-Ratep or another powerful being that we must capture.


----------



## Serpenteye (Mar 19, 2004)

Me neither. I've wanted them from the start. Sandorel is, after all, the party-member most likely to end up in a situation where he would have to fight celestials. 
What price would you you be willing to sell your share of it for (to Sandorel)?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 19, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Me neither. I've wanted them from the start. Sandorel is, after all, the party-member most likely to end up in a situation where he would have to fight celestials.



And why do you say that? 



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> What price would you you be willing to sell your share of it for (to Sandorel)?



Brystasia would honestly not sale them.  The angel was freed against her will but she still fills responsible for capturing Adb-Ratep if need be.


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## Serpenteye (Mar 19, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> And why do you say that?




Celestials tend to work for deities. Sandorel seeks the undoing of all gods. 



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Brystasia would honestly not sale them.  The angel was freed against her will but she still fills responsible for capturing Adb-Ratep if need be.




So Brystasia wouldn't let Sandorel have them? She would prefer it they were party property under her own control?


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## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 19, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Celestials tend to work for deities. Sandorel seeks the undoing of all gods.




Yet Him and Brystasia are the same alignment...  I see your point though but I'm curious of something would Sandorel rather wipe out an evil deity or a good one, or does it simply not matter?




			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> So Brystasia wouldn't let Sandorel have them? She would prefer it they were party property under her own control?



I'm not sure how party property reflects that their under her control as it would be our control as a group.

It would take allot of conniving to let them out of her grasp to be honest as she didn’t like the idea of the angel being locked in forgotten for all time, but call it women's intuition as she doesn't feel right about the mad angel being free. 

If we need to settle this how about you take the key and she will take the manacles?


----------



## Serpenteye (Mar 20, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Yet Him and Brystasia are the same alignment...  I see your point though but I'm curious of something would Sandorel rather wipe out an evil deity or a good one, or does it simply not matter?




Well, the deities who call themselves Good are usually more seductive and insidious. They are much harder to beat in a propaganda-campaign and even if their clergy is wiped out they will still posess a strong grass-roots movement that would help them reestablish themselves. It would also be much harder to find reliable allies against them. They are usually not as destructive and cruel as the evil deities, though their worshipers ultimately end up as nothing more than fuel for their power.
 Evil deities are much easier to fight. Once their infrastructure of fear has been demolished by a simple application of brute force their worshipers will desert them and they will dwindle and die, in most cases. 
 Since it is easier to fight evil deities Sandorel will probably want to direct most of his efforts against them.



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> I'm not sure how party property reflects that their under her control as it would be our control as a group.




Brystasia rules this group by virtue of her sex appeal will-power. What can we do against her will?  (Besides, PA wrote that she was the last owner of the Key and the Manacles. She handed them over for identification and she was likely the one who took them afterwards. Posession is 9/10ths of the law.)



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> It would take allot of conniving to let them out of her grasp to be honest as she didn’t like the idea of the angel being locked in forgotten for all time, but call it women's intuition as she doesn't feel right about the mad angel being free.
> 
> If we need to settle this how about you take the key and she will take the manacles?




Hmm... Ok.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 20, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Well, the deities who call themselves Good are usually more seductive and insidious. They are much harder to beat in a propaganda-campaign and even if their clergy is wiped out they will still posess a strong grass-roots movement that would help them reestablish themselves. It would also be much harder to find reliable allies against them. They are usually not as destructive and cruel as the evil deities, though their worshipers ultimately end up as nothing more than fuel for their power.



which could be a small price to pay for a lifetime of their love. 




			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Since it is easier to fight evil deities Sandorel will probably want to direct most of his efforts against them.




Well, I can agree with that but Brystasia would seriously frown at waging an unprovoked war against any deity.  Even if they are totally evil there destruction will cause more evil actions and/or destruction as the other evil powers move to take their place.



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Brystasia rules this group by virtue of her sex appeal will-power.



Well I guess I'm glad that's the way it went...  I don't think she's done anything overly sexual.  Which is good, I wanted her to come across that way.   I'm shocked that someone so ineffective, up to this point, could become the gruops leader.



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> What can we do against her will?



Hopefuly nothing and if someone tried to do something against her will that Antilles would rip him or her to shreds.  (Nice to have a celestial and invisible bodyguard.)



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> (Besides, PA wrote that she was the last owner of the Key and the Manacles. She handed them over for identification and she was likely the one who took them afterwards. Posession is 9/10ths of the law.)



They where also being carried into your bag...  Brystasia was just being her usual helpful self. 



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Hmm... Ok.



Besides the key is more valuable anyhow.   Note it said door*s* and we only used it for a door.


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## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 20, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> If we're swapping out feats, can I swap out Improved Initiative?
> 
> In that case, I would have taken Weapon Focus as a pre-level 20 feat, and take Overwhelming Critical as my 21st level epic feat.




Shouldn't have missed this, but Brother S kindly pointed it out.  I see no problem with that; it's hardly any less balanced than other feat swaps that have been made so far.  Does this mean you're putting off Dire Charge, or forgetting it altogether?


----------



## Endur (Mar 20, 2004)

Delaying Dire Charge.

I think we're closer to being a 'collection of individuals' than an organized party.  And that's probably what happens most often at epic levels if your characters don't have a back history in common.  In our case, we even come from different worlds.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 20, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> I think we're closer to being a 'collection of individuals' than an organized party.




I really couldn't agree more our "party" has some serious flaws but those flaws make sense when you consider that no member of the party is even from the same world...      I'm still uncertain how we managed to do that.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 21, 2004)

Dalamar said:
			
		

> OoC: Technically, Vilya never tagged along, but I really wanted to chime in on this one.



I don't think it’s a big deal and in till you get more of a chance to respond I'm going to assume that Vilya is fallowing Brystasia around.   (Girls got to stick together right?  )


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## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 22, 2004)

I should be everyone hero for this and I expect you all to buy something nice for Brystasia for my doing this...  (Minus Conan who has already done so.)

I went an added up the value of all the items again here's the damages:
Sword: 205,000
Bracers of Armor +8: 64,000
Staff of Frost: 56,250
Demon Armor: 52,260
Rod of Absorption: 50,000
Headband of Intellect +6: 36,000
Scrolls of: 28,600
Wand of fireball: 22,500
Ring of Wizardry I: 20,000
Ring of Protection +3: 18,000
Gloves of Dexterity +4: 16,000
Pink Ioun Stone: 8,000

Above items at full value: 576,610


Updated please see below.


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## Serpenteye (Mar 22, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> I should be everyone hero for this and I expect you all to buy something nice for Brystasia for my doing this...  (Minus Conan who has already done so.)
> Now we still need to worry about the armor.  Who wants it?
> 
> Serpenteye: if Sandorel will take it and sale it on your planer travels Brystasia will take the Rod of Absorption as a trade off.




You know Sandorel's got something he wants to give her   (sorry)

That's more than fair enough, the Rod is not worth 50'000 to me anyway. Sandorel is taking the armour to sell it somewhere in his travels. It's sale value is only half of 52'260, though, so the cash levels in your breakdown will have to be adjusted.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 22, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> You know Sandorel's got something he wants to give her   (sorry)




Surprising most of the time he doesn't act like it...   I was thinking more along the lines of a necklace, earrings and other jewelry... 



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> That's more than fair enough, the Rod is not worth 50'000 to me anyway. Sandorel is taking the armour to sell it somewhere in his travels. It's sale value is only half of 52'260, though, so the cash levels in your breakdown will have to be adjusted.



With your Charisma and your wisdom spells I think you should be able to do more than 50 % but if you can't I'm taking on Conan's indebtance I think you can handle the loss of a few coins and if not I guess Brystasia will take a loss on it too as I have no desire to edit the above...

*sigh* which I will do right now to reflect that Brystasia has the rod and Conan’s debt.


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## Serpenteye (Mar 22, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Surprising most of the time he doesn't act like it...   I was thinking more along the lines of a necklace, earrings and other jewelry...




He's realised that it's hopeless. He's never going to win her, unless he becomes more attractive than her he's always going to be the inferior in their relationship, platonic or not . 



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> With your Charisma and your wisdom spells I think you should be able to do more than 50 % but if you can't I'm taking on Conan's indebtance I think you can handle the loss of a few coins and if not I guess Brystasia will take a loss on it too as I have no desire to edit the above...
> 
> *sigh* which I will do right now to reflect that Brystasia has the rod and Conan’s debt.




Ok, ok. Consider it my gift to you.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 22, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> He's realised that it's hopeless.



What happened to?  "Better to have loved than never to have loved at all."

I would also say its far from hopless but as she said the issues are on his side.




			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> He's never going to win her, unless he becomes more attractive than her he's always going to be the inferior in their relationship, platonic or not .



Sandorel probably could use more charisma if I truly wanted to play her as nymph like in her attractions but she is part human too.  A Tome of Leadership and Influence would help but then again so would a Manual of Gainful Exercises and a Manual of Quickness and Action.



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Ok, ok. Consider it my gift to you.




What's the gift?


----------



## Serpenteye (Mar 22, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> What's the gift?




Me making a loss from the sale of the armour.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 22, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Me making a loss from the sale of the armour.



Well if you want me too I can take the "loss" part out of it but then I would have to refigure it so that Conan doesn't take a loss too.

So how do you want it done?

And here Brystasia thought she was going to get something pretty. *pout*


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## Serpenteye (Mar 23, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Well if you want me too I can take the "loss" part out of it but then I would have to refigure it so that Conan doesn't take a loss too.
> 
> So how do you want it done?




I'll take the armour at full value and sell it for as much as I can get, it's no big deal.



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> And here Brystasia thought she was going to get something pretty. *pout*




So my Mr 60 Charisma is not pretty enough for her?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 23, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> I'll take the armour at full value and sell it for as much as I can get, it's no big deal.




Well, I might reworked it anyways I need word from Endur and I want to see how PA wants to handle it but this isn't the real world one should "lose" money by getting a sword.  



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> So my Mr 60 Charisma is not pretty enough for her?



Maybe, maybe not I’m still trying to figure out how I’ll play it but its dually noted that is not natural, like hers is, and you must admit that Sandorel has done more than his fare sure of lecture her on her "foolhardy" faith in a goddess of beauty so she might see it simple as a slap in the face and yet another one of your lectures...  “Look at me I’m pretty than your goddess.”


----------



## Serpenteye (Mar 23, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Maybe, maybe not I’m still trying to figure out how I’ll play it but its dually noted that is not natural, like hers is, ...”




Not entirely true. Brystasia got 9 of her 30 points of charisma artificially (+5 book, +4 divinely granted), and Sandorel has a natural charisma of 14 so he's doesn't owe everything to magic. It's not all black and white, but rather shades of grey. That's duly noted .


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## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 23, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Not entirely true. Brystasia got 9 of her 30 points of charisma artificially (+5 book, +4 divinely granted)




correct but those types of bonus both function in an anti-magic field but enchantment bonus don't and yours wouldn't except for the epic nature of your bonus.



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Sandorel has a natural charisma of 14 so he's doesn't owe everything to magic. It's not all black and white, but rather shades of grey.



If you want to take away all of the bonuses maybe you should hit up her racial bonus also...  

Hey where equal then.  *LOL*

The way I see it Brystasia charisma is completely natural compared to your epic spell, which would be like silicon.  Its nice to look at but isn't like the real thing.


----------



## Serpenteye (Mar 23, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> correct but those types of bonus both function in an anti-magic field but enchantment bonus don't and yours wouldn't except for the epic nature of your bonus.
> 
> 
> If you want to take away all of the bonuses maybe you should hit up her racial bonus also...
> ...




This discussion is approaching absurdity. "I'm prettier than you." -"But you use silicon, it's all fake." -"And you're genetically altered." -"Yeah, but that's completely natural." "Huh?"  :\ 
It doesn't really matter. Brystasia and Sandorel don't have the same target demographic, so there's no reason for rivalry (at least not about their respective attractiveness). Neither of them is likely to find a more attractive potential mate.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 23, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> This discussion is approaching absurdity.




Oh I totally agree.   I simply explained how my character would look upon it cause I figured you would really want to know before hand. 



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> "I'm prettier than you." -"But you use silicon, it's all fake." -"And you're genetically altered." -"Yeah, but that's completely natural." "Huh?"  :\




It was about the only real world example I could come up with... :shrug:



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> It doesn't really matter. Brystasia and Sandorel don't have the same target demographic, so there's no reason for rivalry (at least not about their respective attractiveness).




I agree but they seems to always have a rivalry no matter what going on...   



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Neither of them is likely to find a more attractive potential mate.



Based upon how you see things that’s completely true but that’s not how Brystasia is going to see things.

The simple truth is that Brystasia isn’t looking for someone with maxed out charisma, if she were she would have hit it off with a male Sunite with ten levels of Heartwarder a long time ago.  :Shurgs:  


So she is obviously looking for something else.


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## Endur (Mar 23, 2004)

<humor>
What?  You can't count the Sword as treasure.  The Sword is an intelligent ally that was rescued from prison.  
</humor>

Seriously, Conan took a 1/5 share of the platinum we took from the Seer's quarters, the Sword, and the Bracers.  If you wish to negotiate a different share of the treasure with him, please feel free to do so.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 23, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> <humor>
> What?  You can't count the Sword as treasure.  The Sword is an intelligent ally that was rescued from prison.
> </humor>



I did it mostly for party balance but we all would only lose like 4,000 if we "gave" it to you and you simply got zero gold for the adventure.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 23, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Seriously, Conan took a 1/5 share of the platinum we took from the Seer's quarters, the Sword, and the Bracers.  If you wish to negotiate a different share of the treasure with him, please feel free to do so.



IC: That's simply not an option at least not for Brystasia.

In your own posts you talked about selling it. :shrug:  

But If you feel that’s the deal you got that's the deal you got.  It's not like my character needs money...


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 23, 2004)

out of date


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 23, 2004)

This should probably be under my next post but I simply don’t want it to be overlooked.

Are individual breakdowns have changed due to Conan having his own agreement and also to reflect that the Armor isn't Sandorel’s but the groups that still needs to be sold/dealt with.  When the armor is sold it will be spilt up in four ways.  (Conan will not be eligible to receive payment.)

Grand Total with Seer's wealth: 885,350

Each member would get: 221,338

individual breakdowns

*Antillus*: Headband of Intellect +6, Staff of Frost, Pink Ioun Stone, Gloves of Dexterity, , Scrolls of many things, Wand of Fireball.  (Item Wealth: 167,350)  *GP Wealth: 53,988*

*Brystasia*: Rod of Absorption, 67,663 GP "Ley" from Conan (Item Wealth: 117,663) *GP Wealth: 103,675*

*Conan*: Sword, Bracers of Armor +8 (Item Wealth: 269,000) *GP Wealth: 20,000*

*Sandorel*: Ring of Wizardry, (Item Wealth: 20,000) *GP Wealth: 201,338*

*Vilya*: Ring of Protection +3 (Item Wealth: 18,000) *GP Wealth: 203,338*

Serpenteye, if you look above you'll see that I gave you the ring of wizardry.  I honestly hope you don't mind but I also realize that you have no signature item so if it’s an issue please let me know and Brystasia will take that burden also.  On a positive note it's small and rather inexpensive to carry in till you do name your signature item.

PA, obviously any shopping list I sent you is null in void now as I can't afford them.  I'll work on something tomorrow/later today.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 23, 2004)

*Looting Rules*

Okay people,

Unlike my normal OOC posts you can consider this one to be most important.  It's been pretty much decided that I'm the group leader.  To be honest leadership isn't something I wanted but due to circumstances, be they my character, my posting habits, or simply cause I stepped forward its happened.  

Now my character might be carefree when it comes to the concerns of money and to be honest so am I but we simply need some semblance of balance with monetary value in the party as it does represent power.  

These rules do not reflect upon Endur in anyway as I don’t think anyone realized the sword was that valuable.  I was expecting something close to 120K to 150K but the prize was so much sweeter.

Now all that said I've lived my whole life believing, and most of my adult life protecting democracy so these purposed "Loot Rules" will not take effect in till over half of the players say yay or nay.

Also of note with the below new rules the amount of money every will be getting will change a bit.  At the moment I believe, as I haven’t done the math yet, this will cause a slight decrease in coins for all members but this will only be temporary.

Those changes are:
1)	Conan’s share for this “looting” will be handled separately from the others party members but this doesn’t mean that there will not be balance in later “lootings.”
2)	Sandorel will not be stuck with the Demon armor nor am I going to assume that some one wants an item that radiates evil.  Sandorel will try and sale this item on his planer travels.  (This is the reason for the slight reduction in coins but we will get those coins back when he sales it, or at least most of it.)

Looting Rules

0) All valuables found will be the groups in till PA calls for a “looting”. 
1)	All magical items will be valued at their DMG, or other books, market value.
2)	Coins will be converted to gold pieces, this will probably be a paper work only change.
3)	For looting purposes the market value of items and the actually physical coins will be added up before dividing the “loot”.  This is called the “market coin value.” 
4)	Each party member will get an equal share of loot in the form of market coin value.
5)	If there are more magical items than party members then each party member will take at least one magical item.
6)	People who plan on using the item for their own gain have the right to the item over someone who simply wants to destroy the item for their signature item.
7)	If an item is worth more than an equal share than the party member who wants the item will have to pay the other members back in the form of a “levy” at the next “looting.”
8)	If no one wants and item that is worth more than an equal share than it will simply stay in the group bag in till next “looting.”  At which point we will try again to find a proper usage for the item.
9)	If someone owes a “levy” they must first pay the group back before they can collect from a “looting.”
10)	 “Levy” will be owned to the party and not a single individual.
11)	 When paying a “Levy” you must give up your coins first.
12)	 If you want to loan money to each other please do so but you do so at your own risk.  An individual will not be given coins just so they can pay you back.

*I hope that’s all we need and hopefully we don’t need this half but if I could have a vote from all of the above I would appreciate it.  Wrahn the above will affect Meekel so please vote also.*  (please for my mental well being please copy some sort of this post so I know what you’re agreeing too.)

Now we need an example so everyone can see this work but luckily we have one.

An equal share was: 221,338 GP
Conan’s equipment and coins was: 269,000
The difference is: -67,663

So after the next adventure and we go to divide the loot Conan will give up 67,663GP of his share to the group* before he does anything else with it.  His “levy” will now be paid off.

* Since no one has agreed to these rules this one is going to be slightly different as Conan will owe Brystasia and not the group.  I do this cause I honestly fill like I let you all down plus I’m the leader and their for its my responsibility to take the hit.


----------



## Dalamar (Mar 23, 2004)

I agree to the rules as they stand as of your last edit at 9:14AM GMT, the March 23 (I'm not going to needlessly copy the whole damn thing in my post).


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 23, 2004)

Dalamar said:
			
		

> I agree to the rules as they stand as of your last edit at 9:14AM GMT, the March 23



Yeah I dropped in rule zero...  I see no future edits as I think we got everything covered.



			
				Dalamar said:
			
		

> (I'm not going to needlessly copy the whole damn thing in my post).



Nor did I want you to; I just wanted beyond a doubt that you agreed to it.


----------



## Wrahn (Mar 23, 2004)

I think your proposal is fine, you have my aye.

Just as an aside, the way I used to play prior to 3.0 was that all money was split and all magic items were given to those who could use them.  Magic items were never something you would sell because 1) there was no market for them and 2) they were too precious.  Is this unusual to my play area or have you guys found (like me) that with 3.0 magic items and money became far more interchangable?


----------



## Serpenteye (Mar 23, 2004)

That looks reasonable. You have my vote BS.

At these levels most of the loot we find is not going to be very useful to any of us (Conan excepted), since we all have plenty of magic items in all our slots that have been optimised for our builds. We are going to have to sell most of what we find (or cannibalise it into our signature items).


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 23, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Just as an aside, the way I used to play prior to 3.0 was that all money was split and all magic items were given to those who could use them.




I agree with you and I'm all for having an item that someone is going to use being giving to a person.  (hince rule # 6)  but with the signature item magic items do need to be balanced cause they can indeed be "sold" or at least can be used to make your itme more powerful.  

Personally, I'm not very found of buying magic items, this isn't Diablo after all, but epic level characters have access to plane travel and do have the ability to sale items.



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> At these levels most of the loot we find is not going to be very useful to any of us (Conan excepted), since we all have plenty of magic items in all our slots that have been optimised for our builds.




Not really true my character wasn't optimized cause I had the 3 items over 70K rules.  This rule was bent for Conan as he had 5 items over the 70K max and look at how much trouble the rest of us have had with finding "inherent books" and he started play with five of them maxed out and another one at +2 for good measure.  

So yeah it’s going to be much easier for Conan to find magical items for his empty slots but a simple look at his character sheet shows that he has had his fair share of treasure.



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> We are going to have to sell most of what we find (or cannibalise it into our signature items).




I think most of the unneeded magical items will be cannibalized and I'll do my best to see that continues just like you saw in Antillus' loot.  You might need to hold onto an item till you can afford your next “upgrade” but I believe I can be creative enough to keep this to a minimum.  Plus if it does happen Brystasia will probably take the hit.

Thanks for the votes and this has passed but Endur and Velenne please fill free to chime in on this.

If anyone sees any potential pitfalls please say so...  I wrote most of this after midnight.


----------



## Velenne (Mar 23, 2004)

Looks A-ok to me!


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## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 23, 2004)

Velenne said:
			
		

> Looks A-ok to me!




Honestly I'm glad to hear that.   Did you need to post anything IC before I press on?


----------



## Endur (Mar 24, 2004)

<please read all of this before reacting>

IC: Conan would not agree to what you are proposing.  Conan does not believe in being in debt unless there is no other alternative.  

OOC: I think the system you have proposed is as fair as any system I have seen anyone propose, so I have no OOC objections.

I will point out that it was my original plan to use my gold share to buy presents for Brystasia and to hire and equip an army of mercenaries with my share of the gold (after the sword and bracers).  So its not like any of the gold coins was likely to find its way into my character wealth, since I don't believe in buying magic items.  

On the other hand, its extremely useful for the sword to fall into Conan's hands, as the powerful intelligent sword is a subtle plot hook (Grazz't anyone?).  

I propose the following alternative system, which is what Conan would have proposed IC (and which can work just like Brother Shatterstone's OOC system would work).  

1) All coins (hard currency) are split up evenly amongst party members (i.e. 1/5 each);
2) Other items are split up as mutually agreed (i.e. Conan got the sword and bracers, Brstasia got the artwork, others got various items.  Brystasia then sold her artwork and gave large amounts of the proceeds to various members of the party).

This would be the system that would make sense to Conan.  He may not know whether or not an antique vase is worth anything, but he can count coins just as well as Sandorel can.

And, since we're defining that items are split up as mutually agreed, then we can implicitly use Brother Shatterstone's ley idea, to incorporate balance on a long term approach.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 24, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> <please read all of this before reacting>



Always my man. 



			
				Endur said:
			
		

> IC: Conan would not agree to what you are proposing.  Conan does not believe in being in debt unless there is no other alternative.



Well IC, I doubt Brystasia would ever agree to this either...  She is after all a Sunite and not very good with money.  



			
				Endur said:
			
		

> OOC: I think the system you have proposed is as fair as any system I have seen anyone propose, so I have no OOC objections.



This is the reason for doing it OOC.  We can force the fairness of the system and keep the balance that we need that are characters would overlook.  If Conan needed more money Brystasia would over look it with a smile.  If Sandorel needed the money she might frown as she wonders why but she would, more than likely, still over look it with a smile.



			
				Endur said:
			
		

> I will point out that it was my original plan to use my gold share to buy presents for Brystasia and to hire and equip an army of mercenaries with my share of the gold (after the sword and bracers).  So its not like any of the gold coins was likely to find its way into my character wealth, since I don't believe in buying magic items.




Trust me I know, I'm not sure if Brystasia would be comfortable traveling around with a small army of mercenaries.  It could imply Sune going to war and besides they would probably try and treat her like less than the lady that she is.



			
				Endur said:
			
		

> On the other hand, its extremely useful for the sword to fall into Conan's hands, as the powerful intelligent sword is a subtle plot hook (Grazz't anyone?).




I've never regretted Conan getting the sword, the bracers or the money they where the right items for Conan to have and Neither Brystasia, or I, would want to see a partner gong into combat unprepared and unequipped.  It places you in danger and it places her in danger.  Brystasia might feel like she is capable of protecting herself in combat but I know better.

The system is just their for balance and I except their will be times when it doesn't work cause an item that makes sense in Sandorel’s hands is more than he can afford and I be shocked if it wasn't handled like the complete adults we are.



			
				Endur said:
			
		

> I propose the following alternative system, which is what Conan would have proposed IC (and which can work just like Brother Shatterstone's OOC system would work).
> 
> 1) All coins (hard currency) are split up evenly amongst party members (i.e. 1/5 each);
> 2) Other items are split up as mutually agreed (i.e. Conan got the sword and bracers, Brstasia got the artwork, others got various items.  Brystasia then sold her artwork and gave large amounts of the proceeds to various members of the party).




Well with signature items all magical items are worth coins and there really is no OOC way around this.  We didn't want to shop in places like Union and I know Brystasia has no desire to get old before her time while waiting for high end commissions to be done.



			
				Endur said:
			
		

> This would be the system that would make sense to Conan.  He may not know whether or not an antique vase is worth anything, but he can count coins just as well as Sandorel can.
> 
> And, since we're defining that items are split up as mutually agreed, then we can implicitly use Brother Shatterstone's ley idea, to incorporate balance on a long term approach.




If we did the above, we are looking at allot more paper work and we are looking at allot more time spent IC/OOC deciding everything.

I can spend 20 minutes with a prospective loot and be done with the loot.  I'm all for simplicity.


----------



## Velenne (Mar 24, 2004)

Bro S. said:
			
		

> Velenne, is the weapon on the screen something she would recognize? A sword? An axe? Obviously, it would be alien in appearance but if she recognizes the base weapon it might help her, and me out.




The weapon is a glaive, which I took to be the closest adaptation to the Predator's "Combistick".  The information on the screen essentially describes this:



			
				Velenne said:
			
		

> Antillis, in his own special way I'll work out IC soon, will request the following item be commissioned during their downtime:
> 
> Hunter's Vengeance - +2 Vicious, Keen, Large, Cold Iron Guisarme of Evil Outsider Bane
> 
> ...


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 24, 2004)

Velenne said:
			
		

> The weapon is a glaive, which I took to be the closest adaptation to the Predator's "Combistick".




Oh okay, my knowledge in predators is lacking cause I've always liked aliens better. 

That she could and would be able to get done in Waterdeep.

Very spooky moment btw. 

You didn't dismiss yourself so I figure you weren’t done so I'll await your next post but will edit that she can get indeed get it done.

POST EDITED.


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## Endur (Mar 24, 2004)

Actually, you didn't understand me.  We're still using your system, its just that your system is best used OOC.  And we can use my system IC.  I don't see any need for any additional paperwork or more time.



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> If we did the above, we are looking at allot more paper work and we are looking at allot more time spent IC/OOC deciding everything.
> 
> I can spend 20 minutes with a prospective loot and be done with the loot.  I'm all for simplicity.


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## Endur (Mar 24, 2004)

The 3.5 version of Persistent metamagic feat is +6.  Players Guide to Faerun.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 24, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Actually, you didn't understand me.  We're still using your system, its just that your system is best used OOC.  And we can use my system IC.  I don't see any need for any additional paperwork or more time.



That's will be fine then as long as you realize the treasure will not be broken up IC in till it has been done OOC
:shrugs:

Then again ask serpenteye as I suspect all of this will be his issue, and the treasure will be divided up as he sees fit, as Brystasia simply can’t compete and has no role now…  

*Goes and looks for pom poms*


----------



## Serpenteye (Mar 24, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Then again ask serpenteye as I suspect all of this will be his issue, and the treasure will be divided up as he sees fit, as Brystasia simply can’t compete and has no role now…
> 
> *Goes and looks for pom poms*




It's not going to be like that, I suspect. Sandorel considers the party and their adventures more like a passtime, at least at this stage. He's not as committed to the party as Brystasia is and will likely be content to let her run things as long as it doesn't interfere with his plans too much.
 Ooc our character's charisma mean little and I'm not going to be able to impose my will on the rest of you anyway.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 24, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> It's not going to be like that, I suspect. Sandorel considers the party and their adventures more like a passtime, at least at this stage. He's not as committed to the party as Brystasia is and will likely be content to let her run things as long as it doesn't interfere with his plans too much.



I think that’s a shame, he should be the party leader but if he doesn't want the function I guess it would still fall upon Brystasia but I imagine that she will be stepping on your toes allot.  Killing gods isn't a good thing, making spells that elevate you to their status isn't a good thing either.



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Ooc our character's charisma mean little and I'm not going to be able to impose my will on the rest of you anyway.



If our charisma scores mean little to nothing than why did you make the spell?  

To be honest I don't expect you to being to force your will on this character...   but I expect that if you make the spell you should suffer the repercussions of it.  Your charisma is doubled, or nearly so, of Brystasia.  Like it or not your the group leader.

The balance of power in this party has changed, this should be reflected upon are style of play and how are characters interact, theirs a small chance you can’t kill the rest of the party with your charisma spell.  (Oh look at divine shield from the complete warrior as your AC would go up 26 points or so.)

Now the above doesn’t break the game but when you cast your wisdom spell, what the DC for your spells going to be?  

With that and the above feat I imagine that you could kill the rest of the party…  Now you might be saying Sandorel would never kill the party but remember PA has to be able to toss something at us to make it a challenge and that’s going to get the rest of use killed.

Yes indeed the balance of this party and this game has changed.


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## Serpenteye (Mar 24, 2004)

He made the spell to be a more convincing speaker and weaken the gods by stealing their worshipers. (and to impress a girl )



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> With that and the above feat I imagine that you could kill the rest of the party…  Now you might be saying Sandorel would never kill the party but remember PA has to be able to toss something at us to make it a challenge and that’s going to get the rest of use killed.
> 
> Yes indeed the balance of this party and this game has changed.




Disjunction is a 9th level spell and Sandorel has no defence against it. He can be killed just as easily as the rest of you and he's got plenty of enemies who might go after him but ignore the rest of the party. Sandorel is only one little mortal, way out of his league, but he's just become a threat to the gods and they will ignore that threat at their peril... 
There are plenty of in-game justifications for Paxus to do whatever he likes about the percieved imbalance in the party.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 24, 2004)

Don't mind me it was just my last ditch effort to see something that's going to damage the game...

Anyhow, since I think I've spent too much time spreading Hate and Discontent today I shall change subjects.


I have my d20 Library list only most complete…  I have like 6 books to add. 
Link


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## Serpenteye (Mar 24, 2004)

Paxus, do you feel that Sandorel's charisma boost is going to damage the game? If so I can change the spell to make it enhance Consitution or AC instead.

--
Brother, that's an impressive list. How much did all that cost?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 24, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Paxus, do you feel that Sandorel's charisma boost is going to damage the game? If so I can change the spell to make it enhance Consitution or AC instead.



The charisma isn't damaging to the game, just Brystasia psyche... but it does have the chance to be broken with the one feat I mention and changing the charisma spell to a straight AC bonus will indeed be broken.  (At least in my opinion.)

Honesty, It’s the wisdom spell that I think will break the game.



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Brother, that's an impressive list. How much did all that cost?



Honesty?  I don't have a clue but if I did I probably would not be as proud of it...


----------



## Wrahn (Mar 24, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Disjunction is a 9th level spell and Sandorel has no defence against it.




If Paxus has to resort to using Disjunction in every combat to deal with you,  Meekel isn't going to be adventuring with you long or he will have no magic items left.

Very seriously, I think the spells are bad for the health of the game.  I would have no problem if you actually developed them, but Paxus's house rule allowed you to circumvent the control on what Epic Spell casting is supposed to be able to do.  Unbalanced games don't last long, and you are certainly making it unbalanced.  I would ask you to reconsider these spells and this line of character development.


----------



## Serpenteye (Mar 24, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> If Paxus has to resort to using Disjunction in every combat to deal with you,  Meekel isn't going to be adventuring with you long or he will have no magic items left.
> 
> Very seriously, I think the spells are bad for the health of the game.  I would have no problem if you actually developed them, but Paxus's house rule allowed you to circumvent the control on what Epic Spell casting is supposed to be able to do.  Unbalanced games don't last long, and you are certainly making it unbalanced.  I would ask you to reconsider these spells and this line of character development.




The only thing he house-ruled was backlash damage, which I don't use as a mitigator in the spells. Broken or not, my spells are purely core.
 Maybe epic magic needs to be changed, maybe we need to impose limitations on the mitigating factors, but in that case we need a concrete rule that limits what we can and cannot do. 
If we limit epic spells too much they are going to become useless. The epic spells in the book are terribly designed and incredibly expensive. You cannot create a normal fireball spell in epic without paying hundreds of thousands of gps and thousands of experience points. The only way to make it worthwile is to look carefully at the rules and then exploit them for all that they are worth. It's a terrible system, and it may need to be remade entirely.


----------



## Endur (Mar 24, 2004)

The 3.0 Epic Spellcasting feat is in the process of being remade completely for 3.5.  

No idea exactly when the new version will be released.  I'm guessing it will be in the 3.5 version of the Epic book.  I'm certain it will have a mininum cost.  

Even if it is remade completely, I'm not sure that they are going to change the "crowd of clerics" aspect.  A crowd of clerics should be able to do far more than any individual cleric.  That is, after all, how Gods are made (according to some people).


----------



## Wrahn (Mar 24, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> The only thing he house-ruled was backlash damage, which I don't use as a mitigator in the spells. Broken or not, my spells are purely core.
> Maybe epic magic needs to be changed, maybe we need to impose limitations on the mitigating factors, but in that case we need a concrete rule that limits what we can and cannot do.
> If we limit epic spells too much they are going to become useless. The epic spells in the book are terribly designed and incredibly expensive. You cannot create a normal fireball spell in epic without paying hundreds of thousands of gps and thousands of experience points. The only way to make it worthwile is to look carefully at the rules and then exploit them for all that they are worth. It's a terrible system, and it may need to be remade entirely.




I agree that the Epic casting is incredibly punishing, but as you have demonstrated, it should be.  The power of the epic system is there is no upper limit, things that usually are capped at +6 can be, for instance, made +46 (a number taken off the top of my head ).  Honestly using the rules, I can not see them being used until much higher level (26 is around minimum)

You are missing my point however, I don't care if it is a first level spell, engraved in stone by Gary Gygax himself, if it grossly overbalances the game, it is a bad thing.

/shrug I have made my case, if you don't find it convincing, so be it.  I may not even be correct, but that is what my experience tells me.  Please realize that I am not attack you, just voicing my concerns.

(According to the ELH, have Followers who are something other than a Commoner, Warrior, or Expert is an optional rule, one which states it is +2 level for an Adept or Aristicrat.  Paxus allowed the optional rule and lowered it to +0 for NPC classes, thus making your spells possible.  It is only allowable from a House ruling, though it is still possible with epic leadership and the DM allowing an optional rule)


----------



## Serpenteye (Mar 24, 2004)

And I suppose you are going to have objections to Sandorel and his followers summoning spellcasting outsiders using a spell with permanent duration, and then having them join in an ever larger circle to cast ever more powerful spells   . That is my plan for world domination, you know...
 That would break the game, I have no illusions about that, but Sandorel's abitions are so much greater than your average dungeon-delver's and he's doing it not to overcome random encounters with the party but to achieve a personal spiritual goal. Off course it's not going to be allowed, but it would be silly of me not to make the attempt. 
I'm willing to adapt to the rest of the party, but I'm going to have to hear what the DM has to say first. I am finding your case very convincing.


----------



## Wrahn (Mar 24, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> And I suppose you are going to have objections to Sandorel and his followers summoning spellcasting outsiders using a spell with permanent duration, and then having them join in an ever larger circle to cast ever more powerful spells   . That is my plan for world domination, you know...
> That would break the game, I have no illusions about that, but Sandorel's abitions are so much greater than your average dungeon-delver's and he's doing it not to overcome random encounters with the party but to achieve a personal spiritual goal. Off course it's not going to be allowed, but it would be silly of me not to make the attempt.
> I'm willing to adapt to the rest of the party, but I'm going to have to hear what the DM has to say first. I am finding your case very convincing.




Though I do find the summoning idea to be ingenous (it was something I hadn't considered), it probably falls into the same bucket of "broken" as the rest of your epic spells.


----------



## Serpenteye (Mar 25, 2004)

Paxus, the natives are restless. What's your position on epic magic?


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 25, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Paxus, the natives are restless. What's your position on epic magic?




For the time being, I am content to leave the rules as I've iterated them.  Should it prove problematic, for any of the reasons Wrahn or Brother S mentioned, you yourself have already pointed me at a number of potential nerfs.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 25, 2004)

Who's all went into Undermountain?  I know Conan, Brystasia for sure...


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 25, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> *OOC:*
> 
> 
> Making a few assumptions here, like 1) Meekel knows deeper enterances into the Undermountain and 2) that he overheard Conan's conversation with the group and made it here before them.



Meekel would know, Brystasia would have made sure to mention it to him... 

I too would rather have gone with a deeper and less public entrance but they sort of pressed on with out asking for options.   :\


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 25, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> The first assumption is fine; the second is inaccurate, primarily to avoid backtracking.  You can always go down after them, if you want to catch them quickly.





If their wasn't a huge gap of time before went then Brystasia never went down there, as she doesn't carry her gear in Waterdeep and had other things to take care of also...

Nor have a placed my character down in Undermountain

PA, I sent a pretty important email to you.  Let me know when you get it so I can tell everyone else.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 25, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> If their wasn't a huge gap of time before went then Brystasia never went down there, as she doesn't carry her gear in Waterdeep and had other things to take care of also...
> 
> Nor have a placed my character down in Undermountain
> 
> PA, I sent a pretty important email to you.  Let me know when you get it so I can tell everyone else.




I got the email, but it doesn't seem to change anything under these circumstances.  The game can continue without change.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 25, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> The game can continue without change.



Well yeah I new this already...  

I wanted to know who went to Undermountain?

How much time did we have to prepare for this?

Are we all there now are do we need to wait for each persons arrival?


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 25, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Well yeah I new this already...
> 
> I wanted to know who went to Undermountain?
> 
> ...




That's a question for Endur.  If he waited for you to prepare, then you are prepared; if he rushed ahead, you are either with him and unprepared or behind him by as long as your preparations require.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 25, 2004)

Roger, if he did just head straight from the Magic academy then Brystasia would not be there either as she walks around Waterdeep in dresses and not adventuring gear like any good Sunite would.


----------



## Endur (Mar 25, 2004)

The Cimmerian went straight from the magic academy (after Vilya was notified).


----------



## Wrahn (Mar 25, 2004)

So you are alone?


----------



## Endur (Mar 25, 2004)

Unless you, Vilya, or Antillus followed me in.



			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> So you are alone?


----------



## Wrahn (Mar 25, 2004)

Well, I didn't reach the Yawning Portal before you did, so I am not sure if you have gone down or not.  Meekel has used most of his low level spells to identify items, so he is not really set up to wander around swatting kobolds, worse there is no telling what is to be found there.  While he is realitively certain of his own abilities, knowing the reputation of the place, it is certainly possible to encounter something truly powerful, even on the first level, though unlikely, so he probably will not wander the halls alone.


----------



## Endur (Mar 26, 2004)

Well, I'm sure if you ask in the tavern, they'll tell you the Cimmerian (and possibly Vilya?) went into Undermountain.  

After all, how many tall powerful blackhaired barbarians with a pair of longswords are there in Waterdeep?


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 26, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Well, I'm sure if you ask in the tavern, they'll tell you the Cimmerian (and possibly Vilya?) went into Undermountain.
> 
> After all, how many tall powerful blackhaired barbarians with a pair of longswords are there in Waterdeep?




328, if you limit it to humans only, and those not carrying other large weaponry.

Oh, that was rhetorical?


----------



## Endur (Mar 26, 2004)

Well, I'm sure the Gnome would/should know that number even if the Cimmerian does not.



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> 328, if you limit it to humans only, and those not carrying other large weaponry.
> 
> Oh, that was rhetorical?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 26, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Well, I'm sure if you ask in the tavern, they'll tell you the Cimmerian (and possibly Vilya?) went into Undermountain.




Brystasia is having fun with the commoners of Waterdeep, I will edit her post showing she had no desire to go into the Undermountain and was simply escorting Conan, and is now waiting for him.  (She will probably not stay long.)


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 26, 2004)

Wrahn, Brystasia was actually already at Yawning Portal before Meekel could  have arrived.  If your wanting to go down into Undermountain then I can edit my posts to reflect this by having Brystasia leave and then return with her adventuring gear only to arrive as you stated. 

Just let me know. 

Everyone else, Brystasia will obviously say yes to him and agree to spit the treasure equally among us.  (I’m doing this to accelerate the game but if anyone has issues, obviously IC, she’s more then willing to hear them out at a later time.)


----------



## Wrahn (Mar 27, 2004)

Endur, you know this always got the real Conan in trouble.  Beautiful women are always trouble (just look at Brystania)

Sorry for the confusion BS, I had actually assumed you had gone to get your equipment and Conan had gone down ahead of you.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 27, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Endur, you know this always got the real Conan in trouble.  Beautiful women are always trouble (just look at Brystania)




*LOL* very true...  I'm curious as to what the ladies response to Brystasia will be.  Alpha Female is taken.   (No disrespect to Dalamar as if school hadn't happened it could have easily of been Vilya.)



			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> Sorry for the confusion BS, I had actually assumed you had gone to get your equipment and Conan had gone down ahead of you.



Naw, Brystasia probably really gets out alone, and if she does it would never been is such a seedy place, so right now she's enjoying the company a bar full of rogues and the less than savory members of civilization.

I'm editing posts right now if you would like for it to be the other way around but if I can Meta game for a moment, as it doesn't change my posts any, the female might need healing so Brystasia might be needed.


----------



## Endur (Mar 27, 2004)

Well, I'm halfway convinced that the woman is an evil fiend and the three 8 foot tall creatures are lawful good bear warriors, but for Conan to do anything other than what he just did would be out of character.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 27, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Well, I'm halfway convinced that the woman is an evil fiend



Maybe she recanted... 

Anyhow my posts are edited and the new one is up...  PA if you wanted one of the "boys" to try something stupid please do so.   Though I imagine doing anything to drastic would probably cause the bar fight of the century.


----------



## Endur (Mar 27, 2004)

Are the 8' tall creatures close enough together for a cleave (or great cleave opportunity)?


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Mar 27, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Are the 8' tall creatures close enough together for a cleave (or great cleave opportunity)?




No, they're using their reach to advantage.


----------



## Endur (Mar 27, 2004)

The Cimmerian has a +4 on his heal check, so he should be able to bandage her successfully after a round or two.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 27, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> (OOC: Its been a while since Vilya posted. Is Vilya with the Cimmerian right now?)



Its obviously PA's call but I would assume your alone...  Tread carefully.



			
				Endur said:
			
		

> The Cimmerian responds, "I am from a land far away, and few here recognize my name. I am called Conan.



It takes her one post to get your name and it took 430 for Brystasia to do the same?  It's too late your inn way over your head.  

Anyways, back to lurking...


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## Endur (Mar 27, 2004)

Well, when nobody has seemed to react to his name, not Sandorel, Brystasia, the Angel or anyone else, the Cimmerian has begun to think that maybe people around here have never heard his name before.



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> It takes her one post to get your name and it took 430 for Brystasia to do the same?  It's too late your inn way over your head.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 27, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Well, when nobody has seemed to react to his name, not Sandorel, Brystasia, the Angel or anyone else, the Cimmerian has begun to think that maybe people around here have never heard his name before.



I thought he was more worried about peopling gaining magical power over him by knowing his name and not his reputation.


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## Dalamar (Mar 27, 2004)

Somebody want to give me a recap of everything that has happened, both IC and OOC? I don't really feel like wading through a mountain of posts.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 27, 2004)

Dalamar said:
			
		

> Somebody want to give me a recap of everything that has happened, both IC and OOC? I don't really feel like wading through a mountain of posts.



There really shouldn't be that many most are Ender’s and Pa's posts as Conan went to Undermountain...  

Honestly, your going to have to read the posts if you want to role-play as no one knew what to do with Vilya so she’s really not mentioned in any of the posts.

OOC:  The loot rules passed and we debated Sandorel’s epic spells some but they remain unchanged.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Mar 30, 2004)

Wrahn, theirs a post for Meekel to respond to also... 604


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## Velenne (Apr 6, 2004)

Paxus,

Per my general post, I think it might be simplest to say that Antillis does not return for its next nightly visit to Brystasia after recieving the Spear of Othraxis.  If the others inquire as to its whereabouts, it would likely have returned to its people to challenge the leadership directly.  How does that sound?

Again, sorry for dropping. 

-Nate


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## Serpenteye (Apr 6, 2004)

I'm sorry to see you leave, Nate, And I hope that you change your mind once you've had some time off. Antillus has been an interesting character and an asset to the group.


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## Wrahn (Apr 6, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Wrahn, theirs a post for Meekel to respond to also...




Sorry another busy weekend extending into Monday, but you will all be happy to know that the doctor says I will be fine.  Meekel will be responding as soon as I get caught up.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 6, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Sorry another busy weekend extending into Monday, but you will all be happy to know that the doctor says I will be fine.  Meekel will be responding as soon as I get caught up.



Actually that's old news...  but at the same time it's rather current.   No big deal and I'm glad you’re going to be okay.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 11, 2004)

PA, did Meekel’s spell go through?  Post: 655


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## Paxus Asclepius (Apr 11, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> PA, did Meekel’s spell go through?  Post: 655




No way of knowing.  A lack of response may mean it didn't go through, or that the Cimmerian had nothing to say.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 11, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> No way of knowing.  A lack of response may mean it didn't go through, or that the Cimmerian had nothing to say.



I was simply waiting for acknowledgement of it...  Now I just need Wrahn to post and tell Brystasia the above.


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## Wrahn (Apr 12, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> I was simply waiting for acknowledgement of it...  Now I just need Wrahn to post and tell Brystasia the above.




Then I can safely assume that Meekel recieves no reply?


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## Paxus Asclepius (Apr 12, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Then I can safely assume that Meekel recieves no reply?




Yes.  If I don't post something happening, it doesn't happen.


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## Endur (Apr 13, 2004)

The Cimmerian is far too busy dreaming of Brystasia and Melsa to be bothered by inquisative gnomes. 



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Yes.  If I don't post something happening, it doesn't happen.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 16, 2004)

I hope no one is bothered by my roleplaying of Brystasia due to Sanderol’s charisma being so ungodly…  Its not really how I wanted to play Brystasia and one of the reason why a fought so hard against the spell... :\


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## Serpenteye (Apr 16, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> I hope no one is bothered by my roleplaying of Brystasia due to Sanderol’s charisma being so ungodly…  Its not really how I wanted to play Brystasia and one of the reason why a fought so hard against the spell... :\




If you don't want to play it that way you really don't have to. Everyone else has pretty much ignored his charisma until now, so I guess that's a viable way to play. PCs are by the rules not actually affected by the social skills of other characters, whatever the dies might show, because that would take too much freedom away from their role-playing. Sandorel doesn't have to care about Brystasia's Charisma and she doesn't have to even notice his. So play this any way you like, and I'll be content to just get a bonus to my undead turning .


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## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 16, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> If you don't want to play it that way you really don't have to. Everyone else has pretty much ignored his charisma until now, so I guess that's a viable way to play.



Yeah, I've noticed and it must be frustrating for you the player and also for Sandorel...   You know me, you know the way I do things and I'm not going to change.  Sandorel created the spell, it's in effect, and I'm going to make sure my character reacts to it.



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> So play this any way you like, and I'll be content to just get a bonus to my undead turning .



*LOL* you should invest in divine might.


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## Wrahn (Apr 16, 2004)

People react to things differently.  If Brystania aproaches powerful figure with lust, so be it.  The effect on Meekel is there, it just isn't so apparent.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 16, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> People react to things differently.  If Brystania aproaches powerful figure with lust, so be it.  The effect on Meekel is there, it just isn't so apparent.



To be blunt about this I think no one, NPC included, has reacted to Sanderol any differently then they normally would with the exception of me.  (Endur doesn’t count he’s yet to be exposed to him.)

To us it’s simply a number, hey so his charisma and wisdom doubled, but to them there is simply NO way they are going to perceive him the same as before yet no one has looked at him differently, etc. 

Anyhow…  I’m going to stop before I piss some/all of you off so I guess I wasn't very blunt afterall.  :\ 

Serpenteye, I'll get a IC post up when I can...  (Rather busy at work.)


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## Wrahn (Apr 16, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> To be blunt about this I think no one, NPC included, has reacted to Sanderol any differently then they normally would with the exception of me.  (Endur doesn’t count he’s yet to be exposed to him.)
> 
> To us it’s simply a number, hey so his charisma and wisdom doubled, but to them there is simply NO way they are going to perceive him the same as before yet no one has looked at him differently, etc.
> 
> ...




I don't think that is exactly true, for instance, Meekel has rarely even noticed anyone else except Brystania, Sandorel steps into the room and he is chatty with him, agreeing with what he says.  He didn't consider Brystania sudden attraction to Sandorel as anything other than what was his due.

/shrug  I am not sure what you are expecting here, BS.  Brystania reaction to Sandorel and his to her made it pretty obvious that you two wanted to be alone, so we left.  I think anything he says will carry more weight, I think he will be noticed and deferred to, but I don't really see Meekel bowing down and worshipping him.


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## Serpenteye (Apr 16, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> To be blunt about this I think no one, NPC included, has reacted to Sanderol any differently then they normally would with the exception of me.  (Endur doesn’t count he’s yet to be exposed to him.)
> 
> To us it’s simply a number, hey so his charisma and wisdom doubled, but to them there is simply NO way they are going to perceive him the same as before yet no one has looked at him differently, etc.
> 
> ...




Honestly, I have't really played him very differently than I played him before. It's simply impossible for me to emulate a Wisdom of 74 and a Charisma of 60. Since I can't play him appropriately I don't expect any of you to react to him that way. I understand, and sympathise with, your reluctance.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 17, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Since I can't play him appropriately I don't expect any of you to react to him that way. I understand, and sympathise with, your reluctance.



You know if this is going to be a game where we don't roleplay and we go from combat A to combat B then theirs little point in me continuing as what I want isn’t what anyone else wants.  My character isn’t maxed out for combat and to be honest I haven’t been having much fun of late.

I still haven’t bothered with the equipment we where suppose to be a few weeks/months ago so I guess what I’m saying I’m just not having enough fun in this game to continue it.


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## Dalamar (Apr 17, 2004)

Don't you dare stop with Brystasia. I enjoy reading what she does, despite the fact that I can't think of comparable things to do for Vilya. But the latter is due to the fact that she isn't exactly on familiar territory, so she's trying to adapt. And, well, repeated posts saying 'Vilya is ill at ease' aren't really interesting, now are they?


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## Serpenteye (Apr 19, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> You know if this is going to be a game where we don't roleplay and we go from combat A to combat B then theirs little point in me continuing as what I want isn’t what anyone else wants.  My character isn’t maxed out for combat and to be honest I haven’t been having much fun of late.
> 
> I still haven’t bothered with the equipment we where suppose to be a few weeks/months ago so I guess what I’m saying I’m just not having enough fun in this game to continue it.




Sorry about that. I hope you and Brystasia can return to join us again, I've enjoyed playing with and against you. 
Should I assume she left the Inn in tears or in anger and is nowhere to be found?


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## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 19, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Sorry about that. I hope you and Brystasia can return to join us again, I've enjoyed playing with and against you.



I've enjoyed playing with and against you also, and can't think of a better description for it, but I don't see Brystasia or me coming back to the game…  



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Should I assume she left the Inn in tears or in anger and is nowhere to be found?



That or she found a surrogate Sanderol from the inn...  Again do as you see fit she's an NPC now.


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## Endur (Apr 20, 2004)

I'm going to be stopping now as well.  I have too many other things going on in my life right now, and I don't have the time to play in this game.  The game was very cool, though, and I really enjoyed it.  

I loved the background story for the Sword.  Fantastic GMing job.    

I thought Brother Shatterstone did a great role playing job on Brystasia, I just didn't have the time to do the amount of role playing necessary for my character to fully interact with Brystasia.


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## Paxus Asclepius (Apr 20, 2004)

With the loss of half of the characters (not to mention most of the adventure hooks I was plotting), is there interest in keeping this game up?  If so, what can I do to keep the rest of you interested?  If not, would you like me to run another game, and if so, what?


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## Dalamar (Apr 20, 2004)

Hmm... I think we have three players still? We can recruit one or two new players and continue with the game, or even go with just three.
I'm really sad to see that we've lost so many players, but it's better for a game, if a player feels s/he doesn't wish to continue, the s/he leave the game.


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## Serpenteye (Apr 20, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> If so, what can I do to keep the rest of you interested?




You could make it an epic fast-paced game against epic enemies, much like it was in the beginning. Undermountain is a dungeon for ages 5-10, a series of rooms filled with monsters without any reason to actually be there. Give us an enemy we can hate, with plans we have to stop and servants that are worth our time and effort to fight. That would keep me interested, and few players might actually be an advantage in that kind of game.

I'd like that.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 21, 2004)

I have the bad habit of not kill subscriptions, especially with the damn email notification turned off.  Anyhow, I'm happy to give suggestions..



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> With the loss of half of the characters (not to mention most of the adventure hooks I was plotting), is there interest in keeping this game up?



I would hope so; you have three outstanding roll players that indeed would like to continue with their characters.

Things I would change, the pacing should pick back up, Undermountain should be forgotten, and I hate to say this but you need to be more responsive to actions.  I know that Wrahn cast a spell in the hopes of contact Conan and it took a post in the OOC to find out rather or not it went through.  Theirs simply no way to know for certain rather or not you saw something so we end up sitting their waiting.  This happened once or twice before.  

Also something should bind the companions together and that seems to have been lost in this game…  I mean shortly after we reached Waterdeep the companions could have disbursed to our normal worlds…   



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> If so, what can I do to keep the rest of you interested?  If not, would you like me to run another game, and if so, what?




You know what I would be interested in…    Brystasia wouldn’t be there as I already have a Gestalt version of her in another game but I wouldn’t mind making a new character if you went to some of the UA rules.


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## Paxus Asclepius (Apr 21, 2004)

I'll do what I can to pick up the pacing, and return to the action of the earlier stage.  I'm working on the enemies you can hate, but that's going to mean hurting some of you rather dramatically.


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## Serpenteye (Apr 21, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> I'll do what I can to pick up the pacing, and return to the action of the earlier stage.  I'm working on the enemies you can hate, but that's going to mean hurting some of you rather dramatically.




Sounds good , I wouldn't mind Sandorel getting a little bit of respect from NPCs for his greater than godlike charisma, but I understand if you prefer not to.


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## Wrahn (Apr 21, 2004)

If you are looking for more players, you may want to consider consolidating your epic games (no I am not sure how, it is only an idea).

Paxus, did you not like the idea of going after the nether scrolls?  I never was any response from you, either by email or in response to the post here.  I don't want to go off in a direction you are not comfortable with.


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## Paxus Asclepius (Apr 21, 2004)

The Nether Scrolls will be an interesting quest, but it's not very time-critical.  Despite the loss of players, my basic instincts go against revising history, so while it's certainly your choice if you want to head after the Cimmerian, the fact of his abduction was something I felt obligated to keep in the storyline.


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## Wrahn (Apr 21, 2004)

I realize we haven't given the other players enough time in the other thread, but I haven't seen much activity from Winter Wolf, Jemal or Mithreander recently, so importing Pyrex may be a good move, letting the other thread die.  

As far as Conan's abduction goes, I can't see Meekel letting it go, he has some powerful locating magics at his finger tips, but they can be foiled.  If he is dead, Sandorel can use True Ressurection to bring him back and he can go on about his merry way.


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## Endur (Apr 21, 2004)

By the time Conan is freed from the Abyss, I might be available to play him again, or just make a post about him riding off into the Sunset.

If he is dead, he would refuse being Resurrected.



			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> As far as Conan's abduction goes, I can't see Meekel letting it go, he has some powerful locating magics at his finger tips, but they can be foiled.  If he is dead, Sandorel can use True Ressurection to bring him back and he can go on about his merry way.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 3, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> I've enjoyed playing with and against you also, and can't think of a better description for it, but I don't see Brystasia or me coming back to the game…




Yeah I know I said this, but I've been checking on the game, and I've noticed the slow posts and such.  There seems to an absolute goal...  Anyhow, I think I'm over the fact that Brystasia lookes like a total whore now, so if you want her, me, or both of us back let me know.


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## Serpenteye (May 3, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Yeah I know I said this, but I've been checking on the game, and I've noticed the slow posts and such.  There seems to an absolute goal...  Anyhow, I think I'm over the fact that Brystasia lookes like a total whore now, so if you want her, me, or both of us back let me know.




 Why is a woman in touch with her sexuality automatically considered a whore (not that there's anything wrong with being a whore)? It's not like Sandorel would pay her.  
I'd like having her back with us, as an equal partner in the group.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 3, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Why is a woman in touch with her sexuality automatically considered a whore?




She always been in touch, its the way she acted...  begging, and then who knows what she did, or whom, when left in alone in the inn is why I said she looked like a whore...  :\ 



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> I'd like having her back with us, as an equal partner in the group.



Great.   Hopeful the others feel the same way.


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## Dalamar (May 3, 2004)

Welcome back aboard, mate


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 9, 2004)

Dalamar said:
			
		

> Welcome back aboard, mate




Honestly it's good to be back.   my IC post was sort of hard to write but hopefully it seems IC enough for a very out of character action.

Anyhow after some Q&A we can get this game seriously moving again...  I'm in contact with Wrahn, not sure if he will comeback, this was his hobby while at work and they’ve made changes and he’s having issues making it back to ENworld and he never remembers to check when he is at home.  I say we prepare to continue without him and if he leaves he leaves with his equipment.  

PA, since we are going to leave Waterdeep for a very long time, and on an epic quest is there any chance that the items that Brystasia wanted can be complete before we go?  Also, what I need now as more of a frontline fighter’s equipment and build, levels and equipment  such, she’s still going to have the same slender frame, so is there a chance she could have any “free” items donated from the church of Sune or maybe from her new Sunite lovers?

Also I have no issues with the division of equipment and Vilya no possessing one kick ass sword but if he do redesign for gestalt I would like to just start over equipment wise, at least from the pre 20 level and simply break the items up and or gold up to some what equal amounts for level 21.

Anyhow, it's great to be back lets have some fun.


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## Wrahn (May 11, 2004)

By the way, I am still alive.  I am just having a bear of a time getting on the board.  My input is going to be a little limited for a while.  (Network guys have place new security mesures in causing slow downloads, combined with EN Worlds problems is always having me time out).  I will try and post when I can actually get on.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 27, 2004)

Anyhow, I know it's my post but I've been waiting for Wrahn to come back, working on Kilcif, and basally time got away from me… 

Anyhow, what’s everyone opinion on this game?  Are we on or should we just call it over?


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## Serpenteye (May 28, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Anyhow, I know it's my post but I've been waiting for Wrahn to come back, working on Kilcif, and basally time got away from me…
> 
> Anyhow, what’s everyone opinion on this game?  Are we on or should we just call it over?




I'm on. I would be willing to play this game as a duo, or even a solo game. A low number of active players should be an advantage, leading to greater responsibility, commitment and immersion in the game.
I really don't think there's a point on waiting for Wrahn or Dalamar, we can do this just the three of us . Sandorel can bring in a cohort from his Leadership feat to cover our arcane weakness, and at these levels fighter-types are not really necessary.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 28, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> I'm on. I would be willing to play this game as a duo, or even a solo game.



Same as I. 




			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> A low number of active players should be an advantage, leading to greater responsibility, commitment and immersion in the game.




I agree, this game was great and can honestly be so again...  Nothing has changed that. 



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> I really don't think there's a point on waiting for Wrahn or Dalamar, we can do this just the three of us .




Technically Dalamar has been waiting on us...  It’s only the two of us in the room, though I guess Vilya could simply knock also. 



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Sandorel can bring in a cohort from his Leadership feat to cover our arcane weakness, and at these levels fighter-types are not really necessary.



I don't think we need a cohort, I know you spent a feat on leadership but I think a party of three could make this work by itself...

Dalamar, jump in here if you want to play.  When I see you online I drop a reminder of it also.

PA, I say we write off Wrahn, reboot to gestalt characters, I’ve contacted both Serpenteye and Dalamar on this a while ago and they where happy to do this, and respond are money as need be.  Conan's sword is obviously important to the game Vilya shouldn't have to pay for it...  I guess it can be considered a "group" item. 

sound good?


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## Dalamar (May 28, 2004)

I'm still around!

Vilya's not really the type that comes a-knocking to other people's doors, though I was considering the option anyway.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 30, 2004)

*bump*

PA, do you want to weigh in on this?


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## Paxus Asclepius (May 30, 2004)

GAAH!  My deepest apologies; the thread somehow dropped off my list, so I hadn't noticed these posts.

I am more than happy to keep this game going; it's up to you whether you'd rather go gestalt or not, as I can balance encounters either way.

EDIT: I'm thinking that it might be best, especially if we go gestalt, that we drop Epic Spellcasting; it's a little out of hand when you have two full spellcasting classes.  It also tends to shift spellcasting even more towards buffs than instantaneous effects, which in my opinion isn't a good thing.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 30, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> GAAH!  My deepest apologies; the thread somehow dropped off my list, so I hadn't noticed these posts.




No need to apologize it's easy enough to do; hell I'm still having issues with the lack of email notifications. 



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> EDIT: I'm thinking that it might be best, especially if we go gestalt, that we drop Epic Spellcasting; it's a little out of hand when you have two full spellcasting classes.  It also tends to shift spellcasting even more towards buffs than instantaneous effects, which in my opinion isn't a good thing.




This will affect only one person to be honest...  Though it could indeed affect Brystasia also, but it really should be between you two. 

I do have S&S Advance Players Guide, in fact it should up yesterday, and it has some alternate rules for epic levels, like you don't stop gaining spells or your BAB doesn't stop either.  It caps out at 30th Level and is meant to replace the rules in the DMG.  (It states you can only use one or the other so it’s a rather big change.  It’s rather cool to see a Bard casting 9th level spells and rangers/paladins casting 6th level.) 

Let me all know what you think, and if everyone is interested in this system let me know rather or not you have excel.


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## Paxus Asclepius (May 30, 2004)

Aside from epic spells, I think that the rules work fairly well, and am inclined to keep them for the sake of simplicity; it's simply that Epic Spellcasting is either vastly too powerful (for example, it's a piece of cake to boost one of your opponent's SRs to 60+ with a single epic spell) or terribly weak (that same opponent is much better off using a Destruction spell than an epic attack spell).


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 30, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Aside from epic spells, I think that the rules work fairly well, and am inclined to keep them for the sake of simplicity; it's simply that Epic Spellcasting is either vastly too powerful.




Right and I agree with this but at the same time what's in it for a spell caster to go to the 21th level when he can't even learn more spells?


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## Paxus Asclepius (May 30, 2004)

Beautiful feats like Improved Spell Capacity, Improved Metamagic, Multispell, Automatic Quicken Spell, and so forth.  If the current list of spells doesn't suit, I'll be willing to look at spells of 10th or higher level if you'd like to research them.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 30, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Beautiful feats like Improved Spell Capacity, Improved Metamagic, Multispell, Automatic Quicken Spell, and so forth.



True enough.  I stand corrected.



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> If the current list of spells doesn't suit, I'll be willing to look at spells of 10th or higher level if you'd like to research them.



So your saying that your going to allow epic spells that are in the ELH?


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (May 30, 2004)

No, because those don't have a level.  I mean spells which use a slot of higher than 9th level, and have corresponding power.  There's really nothing special that makes 9th level the highest level of spell that should be castable, nor (failing Wish and Miracle, which I avoid like a bad cliche) are 9th level spells so potent that they can't be surpassed.


----------



## Serpenteye (May 30, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> EDIT: I'm thinking that it might be best, especially if we go gestalt, that we drop Epic Spellcasting; it's a little out of hand when you have two full spellcasting classes.  It also tends to shift spellcasting even more towards buffs than instantaneous effects, which in my opinion isn't a good thing.




I guess it's no more than fair, otherwise Sandorel will always be far more powerful than the other characters. But if we don't get epic magic it should not be in the hands of NPC's either, it should simply not exist in the Multiverse and not even the greatest of gods should have it.


----------



## Serpenteye (May 30, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> If the current list of spells doesn't suit, I'll be willing to look at spells of 10th or higher level if you'd like to research them.




That would be a great alternative, I would be willing to write up some new spells.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 30, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> ... not even the greatest of gods should have it.




God, you even talk OOC in character!    Very interesting point.  

I had assumed that the NPC wouldn't have it either but a god is a god...  and there for beyond my simple grasp.   (Of course PA should know.)


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## Paxus Asclepius (May 30, 2004)

It was in part a desire not to have my NPCs using epic magic that motivated this decision; as I said, it would have been child's play to give her unbeatable SR and a DR that only Conan could have overcome readily.  Gods are another matter entirely; they've got salient abilities which make most mortal magics, even epic, look faintly silly.  Of course, the operative word there is _most_.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 30, 2004)

PA, great!  Sounds like gestalt epic here we come but there's still one issue...  Brystasia has an ECL, and at this point she's the only one in the group with this issue...  How do you want to handle this?  

I personally think that the half nymph template isn't worth the LA +2 in any game...  In the Vile game, Loviana got eat alive.  In this game Brystasia would be hard pressed to win against either one of the others though she might be able to make it work close...

Anyhow how do you want to handle a LA in a gestalt game?  Surely losing four class levels would be to punishing, (LA: 2 across the board) so why don't we just drop it to a LA 1 and she can lose the normal two levels... 

I would suggest just dropping it totally but that probably isn't fair to the other two...   (if they would support this I wouldn’t mind seeing their support…  )

PA, also do you have UA yet?  and are you willing to use some of the other variants presented in this book?  (I still plan on having Brystasia’s favored soul come into effect at the fifth level so there is a rogue variant in there that I really like.  It turns the paladin from a lumber armored tank to an agile fighter.  Basically you swap the rogue sneak attack for fighter feats.)


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (May 30, 2004)

I do have UA, but the Thug variant isn't one I like using.  My thought for the template was to simply treat it as a template class; your first two levels would be half-nymph/(other class).


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 30, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> I do have UA, but the Thug variant isn't one I like using.



Thug?     I was acutally talking about the rogue variant on 9g 58.  (Bottom right)



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> My thought for the template was to simply treat it as a template class; your first two levels would be half-nymph/(other class).



I would rather not do it like that as I'm hoping to pick up some nice 1st level skills and not get stuck with the skills of a 1st level paladin... If you catch my drift.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (May 30, 2004)

I misremembered which variant the Thug was.  I still would prefer not to use that variant; if you want the fighter feats, take fighter levels.  I also believe that losing two levels of one class is a closer approximation of LA +2 than losing one level of both classes, but I suppose I can allow the latter in this case.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 30, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> I still would prefer not to use that variant; if you want the fighter feats, take fighter levels.



I'm not really looking at fighter feats, I'm simply trying to remove the sneak attack from the rogue class...  It's not I really Brystasia if you ask me and I'm not trying to anything crazy with them...  (I was thinking combat expert, and improved trip)  I guess I can simply go rogue. 



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> I also believe that losing two levels of one class is a closer approximation of LA +2 than losing one level of both classes, but I suppose I can allow the latter in this case.



Sweet, I do appreciate that. 

Edit: Also would you prefer the Avenger class we used before or should we go to the Holy Warrior from the Book of the Righteous? 

Edit 2:   I can't seem to find that dragon anymore...  I'll start looking through the BotR for the domains that suite Sune...  (How about Aymara's domains: Guardian, Emotion, and/or Creation)

Do you have issues with a pegasus for the paladin mount?


----------



## Dalamar (May 30, 2004)

To make things easier on converting Vilya to gestalt form, I think I'll just tag on Rogue levels on top of her, or maybe I should do ranger instead...


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (May 31, 2004)

I'd be fine with the Holy Warrior, though I feel Guardian is inappropriate for Sune; Fire, Compassion, and Emotion seem like the best options.  If you want a rogue without sneak attack, you might consider the bard; it's missing a couple skill points, but will give you most of the relevant skills, another strong use for your high Cha, and is quite appropriate for a worshipper of Sune; I'd allow the Divine Bard from UA if you want it.  I don't object to the pegasus as a paladin mount, so long as you recall the reduced effective level.  I'm strongly considering going back to the old 3.0 way of doing things, where the mount stayed with you instead of being summoned; if you have an opinion either way, please voice it.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 31, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> I'd be fine with the Holy Warrior, though I feel Guardian is inappropriate for Sune; Fire, Compassion, and Emotion seem like the best options.




Compassion and Emotion seem like good choices but there's nothing in Sune's Dogma, to me at least, that warrants fire.  Yes Sune carries a flaming weapon but this is, in my eyes, a "pun" off of her red hair.

Also her clerics receive the protection domain.

a few quotes:



			
				Faiths & Pantheons pg. 66 overview said:
			
		

> Lady Firehair loves and protects her followers, who in turn manifest and protect the beauty of the world.






			
				Faiths & Pantheons pg. 66 overview said:
			
		

> Sunites also offer their prayers to Sune by standing in a pool or bath and looking into a mirror lit only by natural light or candles.






			
				Faiths & Pantheons pg. 66 History/Relationships said:
			
		

> Sune shares the waters of the Evergold.






			
				Faiths & Pantheons pg. 66 Dogma said:
			
		

> Keep your body as comely as possible and as attractively displayed as situations warrant.




All the above seem to disapprove fire and warrant guardian...  To be honest Brystasia as a concept was meant as a way to show through faith one can find protection.  (aka divine grace.) 

Now I have no issue with going Lawful Good, but then she couldn't be either a heartwarder and/or a favored soul and I would like to have both still....  It's not like she min and maxed.  Feats are still tied up in Heartwarder, and her Heartwarder Caster Level is on her paladin spells...  :\ 



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> If you want a rogue without sneak attack, you might consider the bard; it's missing a couple skill points, but will give you most of the relevant skills, another strong use for your high Cha, and is quite appropriate for a worshipper of Sune; I'd allow the Divine Bard from UA if you want it.




True...  but there are combat skills in the rogue that I feel a lightly armored woman truly needs. (evasion, uncanny dodge)



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> I don't object to the pegasus as a paladin mount, so long as you recall the reduced effective level.  I'm strongly considering going back to the old 3.0 way of doing things, where the mount stayed with you instead of being summoned; if you have an opinion either way, please voice it.



To be honest, I've never taken a mount in 3rd edition, either version, so I'm rather uncertain what to do here...  I would rather not have to wait a year and a day to get a new one and if she can unsummon it then at least the mount can be spared from father suffering...  (The later seems to be more in character also.)

Brystasia is a holy warrior of the 11th level so how much of this mount advancement does she get?  I've found nowhere it says that you lose levels on this advancement table if you chose something other than a warhorse.

Also I have her as a paladin in good faith and one that can still advance as a paladin but she did take Heartwarder levels instead of paladin levels but I figured this shouldn’t truly be an issue.  What do you think?


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (May 31, 2004)

Rogue or bard, it's entirely up to you.  The rules for alternate paladin mounts are in Defenders of the Faith, but in brief, your mount is treated as if you were a certain number of levels lower, only one in the case of the pegasus.  I have no objection to a Holy Warrior of Sune taking levels in Sune's own prestige class, so there are no multiclassing penalties there (the system sort of breaks down in gestalt anyway).  I must have been thinking of an earlier form of Sune when imagining that she had a substantial fire connection; go ahead and take Guardian, and revel in your Divine Grace.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 31, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Rogue or bard, it's entirely up to you.



Cool thinks for understanding...    I might make a few changes as I'm really need of feats now with a mount...  I guess a few levels of fighter couldn't set her back to far...



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> The rules for alternate paladin mounts are in Defenders of the Faith, but in brief, your mount is treated as if you were a certain number of levels lower, only one in the case of the pegasus.



Cool, I'll read them and also work on the mount...  One more level of paladinhood would be a smart pick up also.



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> I have no objection to a Holy Warrior of Sune taking levels in Sune's own prestige class, so there are no multiclassing penalties there (the system sort of breaks down in gestalt anyway).



Indeed they do sort of break down but I am trying to main her devotion.  

Do you have the complete divine yet? 



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> I must have been thinking of an earlier form of Sune when imagining that she had a substantial fire connection; go ahead and take Guardian, and revel in your Divine Grace.



*bows humbly*

Edit:  I'm not sure how my feats look so this might be a wasted question but how would you rule upon leadership but how would it work if she used the cohort stats on her paladin mount?


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (May 31, 2004)

The only circumstance under which a paladin mount can also be a cohort is when it's a dragon; for that, the Dragon Cohort feat (from Draconomicon) is probably best.  I don't have Complete Divine, and likely won't pick it up soon, unless I happen to go shopping and suffer an attack of consumerism.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 31, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> The only circumstance under which a paladin mount can also be a cohort is when it's a dragon; for that, the Dragon Cohort feat (from Draconomicon) is probably best.



Cool, I'll look it up but I doubt I can offered it feat wise...  (edit: no pre for leadership...  very interesting and very much Brystasia.  Would the bonus HD and such come before or after the pegasus level was calculated?)



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> I don't have Complete Divine, and likely won't pick it up soon, unless I happen to go shopping and suffer an attack of consumerism.



   The normal then?  Email what I'm interested in? 

oh on a side note I'm quite pleased with this book.


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## Paxus Asclepius (May 31, 2004)

Yep.  As always, email anything that you want to use that I don't have.  I'm not sure what your question is about the hit dice; to calculate the bonuses granted to your mount, you take your Holy Warrior level, subtract any modifiers for a more powerful creature (in the case of a pegasus, -1), and then look on the table.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 31, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Yep.  As always, email anything that you want to use that I don't have.



Cool, I'll work on it now...   I see this as a replacement for the generic Divine Champion that we had talked about for Sune's Knights of the Ruby Rose.



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> I'm not sure what your question is about the hit dice; to calculate the bonuses granted to your mount, you take your Holy Warrior level, subtract any modifiers for a more powerful creature (in the case of a pegasus, -1), and then look on the table.




Only that as a cohort wouldn't the pegasus being entitled to more HD and such?  (well after the ECL was figured out for it.  Its base is 6 in M&M 3.5)

I didn't look at Brystasia leadership level, I assuming that it would be high enough that she could have her max cohort.  (17th level, Her ECL 20, LA +2, minus two levels bellow)

And the pegasus as it is right now would be normally 4HD, +6 from the paladin mount advancement, +2 level adjustment, so it would still have 5 HD right?  Or am I totally skewing the pooch on this one?)


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (May 31, 2004)

Pegasi can't be cohort/mounts.  It would be a mount only.  Therefore, if you're an 11th level holy warrior, you'd be treated as 10th level for terms of this ability (as a pegasus has a -1 effective level modifier), and it would gain the benefits of a 10th level paladin's mount, namely +4 HD, +6 natural armor, +2 Str, an Int of 7, empathic link, improved evasion, share spells, share saving throws, and improved speed.  If you're a 12th level holy warrior, you get an additional +2 HD, +2 natural armor, +1 Str, +1 Int, and the ability to Command other pegasi.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 31, 2004)

Right, So that dragon cohort feat would end up being pointless than?  (I think I misunderstood that you would consider changing it for the pegasus mount)


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (May 31, 2004)

Yes.  I meant only that if you wanted a cohort that was also your mount, that was the only way I knew of.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 31, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Yes.  I meant only that if you wanted a cohort that was also your mount, that was the only way I knew of.



Rog, she really doesn't need two mounts you know.


----------



## Dalamar (May 31, 2004)

I'm considering bard levels for Vilya instead of rogue or ranger. However, her history states that she doesn't have interest for the arcane arts. This can, of course, be hand-waved at with "it's bardic arts, not arcane arts", but what would you consider to be suitable replacements for a bard's spellcasting ability?

Edit - Perhaps the Whirling Frenzy variant of Rage (Unearthed Arcana p. 66)?


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (May 31, 2004)

The bard is really mostly about magical song, and so if she's not interested in magic, it seems the wrong route to go.  Rogue will give you the same skillset, and if it won't give you songs or lore, you have plenty to make up for it.


----------



## Dalamar (May 31, 2004)

I think I'll go with the bard in any case as the bardic music fits Vilya so well. I'll just have to define her spellcasting as another form of her bardic music, not magic per se.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 1, 2004)

Dalamar said:
			
		

> I'll just have to define her spellcasting as another form of her bardic music, not magic per se.



Sune is always looking for divine bards...


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## Paxus Asclepius (Jun 1, 2004)

If you feel it fits the character concept, go right ahead.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 1, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> If you feel it fits the character concept, go right ahead.



Speaking of character concepts that PrC is in your inbox...  plus my usual long-winded words to go along with it.


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## Dalamar (Jun 1, 2004)

How is one supposed to determine the base save bonuses for a multiclassed gestalt character? Vilya'll be Bard/Fighter 12 and Bard/Dervish 9, which'll mean base saves of +8 on all saves for the first 12 levels. But then it gets muddy.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 1, 2004)

Dalamar said:
			
		

> How is one supposed to determine the base save bonuses for a multiclassed gestalt character? Vilya'll be Bard/Fighter 12 and Bard/Dervish 9, which'll mean base saves of +8 on all saves for the first 12 levels. But then it gets muddy.



factional saves on pg. 73...  I highly suggest we go with these...  I've been doing Bry with them.

I have a template excel doc you can use if you’re interested.


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## Paxus Asclepius (Jun 1, 2004)

Both bard and dervish have strong Ref and Will saves.  Thus, for eight levels of those, you get +2 to Fort, +4 to Ref, +4 to Will, plus the +2 to Ref and Will that a dervish gets for the 1st level, totaling to +2 F, +6 R, +6 W.  After 20th level, you get a +1 at every even level, regardless of what classes you take.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 1, 2004)

PA, silly question...  I know we where a 32 point buy it now before hand but with the increasing need for more diverse abilities do to trying to maintain two classes would it be insane of me to ask about bumping it up to a 36 point buy?


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Jun 1, 2004)

32 seems more than sufficient to me, given the plethora of ability-boosting options available.  I reserve 36 point buy for campaigns in which magic is seldom available; this is not such a campaign.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 1, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> 32 seems more than sufficient to me.




Very true, I shouldn't have asked but Dalamar was to scared too so I was doing him a favor...


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 1, 2004)

PA, a serious question this time, how much do you see the pegasus seeing use?  Trying to figure out if the mounted combat feat is worth it or not...  Also does anyone know of any good sources for mount magic items?


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Jun 1, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> PA, a serious question this time, how much do you see the pegasus seeing use?  Trying to figure out if the mounted combat feat is worth it or not...  Also does anyone know of any good sources for mount magic items?




How much use the mount sees depends on how much effort you want to spend on making sure you use it.  You're certainly capable of arranging many, if not all, encounters so that a flying steed can be brought into play; the question is simply whether you consider it worth the effort.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 1, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> How much use the mount sees depends on how much effort you want to spend on making sure you use it.




Okay, I do plan on spending a small fortune on this mount so consider there the attempt in the effort. 

I have one more question...  My caster level for Favored Soul has suffered some cause of the gestalt rules.  Favored Soul is on the "other side" of the Heartwarder levels, its replacing paladin levels...  With the rules that you only get the best for each level there was no point in ever adding the Heartwarder spell levels to the Favored Soul cause only one counts so I'm casting levels on a 20th level paladin and only a 12 level favored soul... 

I would be willing to remove the heartwarder levels from the paladin side, those going to 12 level casting and give them to the favored soul when they don't over lap each other but I can only do if I use two PrCs at the same time...  Which is a "no no" according to the book...  But if you allow it I could be 15th level caster for the Favored Soul...  

I understand if you say no.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 1, 2004)

PA, how do you feel about this magic item from magic of the Faerûn..?



> *Battle Bridle*: This fine leather bridle aids a rider and mount, giving the rider using the bridle a,+10 competence bonus on all Ride checks and allowing him to fight as if he had the Mounted Combat feat. If the rider already has the Mounted Combat, he can act as if he had the Ride-By Attack.
> 
> Caster Level: 7th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, Mounted Combat feat, Ride-By Attack feat, calm animals; Market Price: 9,000 gp; Weight.- 1 lb.




I'm going to have mounted combat btw.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Jun 1, 2004)

It's woefully underpriced.  An item of +10 circumstance bonus (which is what 3.5 uses for item boosters) costs 20,000.  A feat-granting item is decently costly; as this is a second-tier feat, I'll say that's at base worth 8,000, raised to 12,000 because it's a second concurrent use on one item.

I'm not sure what your question is for caster levels; can you spell out what your current progression is, so I can see that more clearly?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 1, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> It's woefully underpriced.



Yeah I thought so too, 32K then?



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> I'm not sure what your question is for caster levels; can you spell out what your current progression is, so I can see that more clearly?




Yeah but it's ugly...  :\  (give me a secound)

One more item for now...  Arms and Equipment:



> *Everlasting Feedbag*: This feedbag has a small medallion on it with an embossed cornucopia symbol. When placed around the muzzle of a horse, donkey, or other equine animal, it produces an unlimited amount of suitable feed. Care must be taken that the animal does not overeat, and most creatures must still eat other plants for proper nutrition. The feedbag produces nothing when it is not placed around an animal's muzzle.
> 
> Caster Level: 5th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, create food and water; Market Price: 15,000 Weight: 1b.




Hopefuly you'll agree with me that this is overpriced...


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Jun 1, 2004)

Create Food and Water is a 3rd level spell, with a minimum caster level of 5th, giving a base of 3x5x2000=30,000 gp.  However, this produces no water and only affects 1/5 of the total targets of a normal spell at caster level 5.  Thus, I feel confident in stating that it is balanced at 3,000 gp.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 1, 2004)

Okay here's the progression as it stands now....  Levels 1 through 7 can't change because favored soul pays for the Heartwarder's weapon proficiency...


```
1	Holy Warrior	1	Rogue	1
2	Holy Warrior	2	Rogue	2
3	Holy Warrior	3	Rogue	3
4	Holy Warrior	4	Rogue	4
5	Holy Warrior	5	Favored Soul	1
6	Holy Warrior	6	Favored Soul	2
7	Holy Warrior	7	Favored Soul	3
8	Heartwarder	1	Favored Soul	4
9	Heartwarder	2	Favored Soul	5
10	Heartwarder	3	Favored Soul	6
11	Heartwarder	4	Favored Soul	7
12	Holy Warrior	8	Pious Templar	1
13	Holy Warrior	9	Pious Templar	2
14	Holy Warrior	10	Pious Templar	3
15	Holy Warrior	11	Pious Templar	4
16	Heartwarder	5	Favored Soul	8
17	Heartwarder	6	Favored Soul	9
18	Heartwarder	7	Favored Soul	10
19	Heartwarder	8	Favored Soul	11
20	Holy Warrior	12	Favored Soul	12
```

Bry would be a:
Holy Warrior 12/Favored Soul 12/Heartwarder 8/Pious Templar 4/Rogue 4/

Make sense?   

Anyhow, her caster level would be Holy Warrior 20*/ Favored Soul 12.

* Heartwarder goes with this class cause you can't gain to caster levels for the same class in the same over all level.

Here's what I'm wanting to do...


```
CL	Class A	CL	Class B	CL
1	Holy Warrior	1	Rogue	1
2	Holy Warrior	2	Rogue	2
3	Holy Warrior	3	Rogue	3
4	Holy Warrior	4	Rogue	4
5	Holy Warrior	5	Favored Soul	1
6	Holy Warrior	6	Favored Soul	2
7	Holy Warrior	7	Favored Soul	3
8	Heartwarder	1	Favored Soul	4
9	Heartwarder	2	Favored Soul	5
10	Heartwarder	3	Favored Soul	6
11	Heartwarder	4	Favored Soul	7
12	Heartwarder	5	Pious Templar	1
13	Heartwarder	6	Pious Templar	2
14	Heartwarder	7	Pious Templar	3
15	Heartwarder	8	Pious Templar	4
16	Holy Warrior	8	Favored Soul	8
17	Holy Warrior	9	Favored Soul	9
18	Holy Warrior	10	Favored Soul	10
19	Holy Warrior	11	Favored Soul	11
20	Holy Warrior	12	Favored Soul	12
```

Bry would *still* be a:
Holy Warrior 12/Favored Soul 12/Heartwarder 8/Pious Templar 4/Rogue 4

but her casting level would change cause her Heartwarder wouldn't go to paladin as I see that as a bigger waste...

Anyhow, her caster level would be Holy Warrior 12/ Favored Soul 16*

* Note that half of her heartwarder caster levels would go to the abyss but oh well lesser of two evils...


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 1, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Thus, I feel confident in stating that it is balanced at 3,000 gp.



Sweet, sounds like a steal of a deal then. 



> *Saddle of Weather Protection*: A boon to travelers, this highly polished saddle protects the steed and rider from the elements. The steed and rider are completely immune to "normal" temperature from 0° to 110° Fahrenheit and remain perfectly dry unless completely immersed in a body of water.  In addition, the rider can cast protection from elements upon himself and his mount once per day.
> 
> Caster Level: 5th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item,
> protection from elements; Market Price: 5,400 gp; Weight 25 lbs.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Jun 1, 2004)

Neither of those progressions really work; you need to be able to cast 3rd level spells to be a heartwarder.  Try this instead: First four levels are favored soul/rogue.  Levels 5-6 are favored soul/holy warrior.  Levels 7-16 are heartwarder/holy warrior.  Levels 17-20 are favored soul/pious templar.  You get two extra levels of heartwarder, don't lose any pious templar or holy warrior levels, and get full caster progression on the stronger caster.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Jun 1, 2004)

The saddle is roughly equivalent to one 1st level spell cast once per day, at half power, that is suppressed rather than dispelled, and one third level spell, cast once per day.  That's 2000x.5x1.2x.2=240 for enduring elements, and 2000x3x5x.2=6000 for the protection from energy bit; the endure elements is thus increased by 50% to 360.  Total price:6,360.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 1, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Neither of those progressions really work; you need to be able to cast 3rd level spells to be a heartwarder.



oops...  I edited it some, guess I messed it up when I did that.



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Try this instead: First four levels are favored soul/rogue.



Well her history shows that her favored soul came later in her career, but I don't ever see us breaking are characters down that far do to drains and such, but if we do we have bigger issues than Brystasia’s history... 

So as long as I don't need to redo her history call that the progression she's going to go. 



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> You get two extra levels of heartwarder, don't lose any pious templar or holy warrior levels, and get full caster progression on the stronger caster.



I'll stat it up but I'm hoping to get father in the favored soul but that's minor and I can fix that on my own.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 1, 2004)

PA, hey the Holy Warrior is suppose to get two or three skills as class skills based upon church/religion and I figure Sune should go like this

1) Perform
2) Diplomacy
3) Appraise

1) Seems like a most...
2) No one really hates them...
3) They buy allot of art objects...  (They do over pay hence its last status)

Your thoughts?


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Jun 1, 2004)

Sounds good to me.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 1, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Sounds good to me.




Hey, your progression was awesome, perfect too!  Now that you know what my levels look like do you want to figure out the saves or should I simply go with the fraction saves and BAB?


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Jun 1, 2004)

Fractional is preferred.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 1, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Fractional is preferred.




You and me both.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 1, 2004)

PA, one more question...  

The Gift of the God power.  What do you want to use for Sune?

I was thinking Charm Monster...  but I really don't have any great ideas.  My spell knowledge is pretty limited.


----------



## Endur (Jun 1, 2004)

Pegasi or Griffin?

Just a reminder that Brystasia owns a Griffon.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Jun 1, 2004)

At levels 3, 6, and 9, you gain one weekly use of Enthrall.  At levels 12, 15, and 18, you get one weekly use of Charm Monster.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 1, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Pegasi or Griffin?




Yes, she does indeed have a griffin but it’s still a little young for combat, so she has a pegasus mount from Sune.  

PA, those gifts look just fine.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 1, 2004)

SE, I saw your post about computer time in the house post, are you going to have time to convert over to gestalt anytime soon?  (This shouldn't really affect us until combat anyhow.) 

PA, also should we continue on in the IC thread or do you want to see how we look with gestalt rules before we get ahead of ourselves?


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Jun 1, 2004)

Feel free to plot in the IC thread, but you don't actually get to do anything besides talk to yourselves and others until your capabilities are fixed.


----------



## Serpenteye (Jun 2, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> SE, I saw your post about computer time in the house post, are you going to have time to convert over to gestalt anytime soon?  (This shouldn't really affect us until combat anyhow.)




Converting such a high level character to gestalt will take me a while, there are a lot of choices to be made both in levels and equipment.
I'm considering a (Cleric 11, Mystic Theurge 10/Sorcerer 11, Fighter 10) with a Caster level of 21/21 and a bab of 17 (10 fighter+10*0,75 cleric). 
And I'm devicing a number of 10th level spells...

What's the spell/level progression in your new system, Paxus? Is it a linear continuation of the non-epic system or does it have it's own progression?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 2, 2004)

SE, PrC that give bonus to two caster levels are mentioned in the UA rules as being to unbalanced in gestalt play and that they should be removed and banned but of course PA has final say.


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## Serpenteye (Jun 2, 2004)

Then I'll have to search the web for some good prestige-classes. I don't want to go with Archmage or Incantatrix again, so I must find suitable alternatives.  Something on the cleric side with full casting ability and 1/1 bab would be good too.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 2, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Something on the cleric side with full casting ability and 1/1 bab would be good too.



I'll look through my copy of the _compete divine_ when I get home tonight.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 2, 2004)

Serpenteye, I hate to a bearer of bad news but after looking through about 5 books, PGtF, Compete Warrior, Complete Divine, Defenders of the Faith, and the Book of Exalted Deeds the best I have found was a +10 BAB and a CL of +9.  It lacked +1 to the existing caster level at first level.  

It's the Fit of Raziel...  But it's not for Sandorel at all.  LG  requirement

I also found the Swanmay, but like wise it’s not for Sandorel...  Not in less you want to do an all girl party. 

There’s a number of PrC that give a BAB +7 and full casting levels but not to many at all that do full BAB and that give a hand full of casting levels.

I really don’t think you wanting to lose your 9th level divine spells so I won’t even bring up the PrC that gives you a new set of spells but gives BAB +10

So tell me what you want for Sandorel, like do you want him to be a mega undead killer a mega healer, etc. and I’ll start working on getting it to you.  

PA, hey silly question but I’m full of them it seems… I know that Vilya now has Conan’s sword and that’s not counting against her equipment, nor should it.  Anyhow I was wondering if you had any plans to augment Bry or Sandorel?  

I think it would be cool to see a Sunite relic in the hands of Brystasia do to her True Believer feat.


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## Paxus Asclepius (Jun 3, 2004)

Bear in mind that Kepesk'Athear is quite capable of moving on its own.  It'd be more accurate to say that she was transporting it than wielding it; it's as likely as not to take off in combat and go after a different target.

Spell/level progression is through the Improved Spell Capacity feat; given that you might have two classes which grant it as bonus feats, that can add up very quickly.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 3, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Bear in mind that Kepesk'Athear is quite capable of moving on its own.  It'd be more accurate to say that she was transporting it than wielding it; it's as likely as not to take off in combat and go after a different target.




That's not really a strong no...  You know?


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## Paxus Asclepius (Jun 3, 2004)

Any spectacular augmentations either of you receive will be more likely from cunning roleplaying than from a desire to keep the party in EQ balance; that doesn't mean they won't happen, just that you'll have to earn that relic, godhood, or whatever other reward you have your eye set on.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 3, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Any spectacular augmentations either of you receive will be more likely from cunning roleplaying than from a desire to keep the party in EQ balance.




I'm intrigued now...     Any hints ole dungeon master?

As an update I have a pretty good handle on Brystasia...   I need to finish spending her money but sadly it's going quickly...  :\   (My problem no one else’s I know.  )


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 3, 2004)

PA, I'll toss this idea out there cause Dalamar might want to consider it…  But epic characters are supposed to be able to do epic things so why not Epic weapon finesse?

Prerequisites: Weapon finesse*, 15 BAB, Dexterity 21

* Including a weapon finesseable weapon.

Other prerequisites could be added to balance this out, maybe epic prowess, but this seems reasonable enough if they have one based upon Int.


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## Paxus Asclepius (Jun 3, 2004)

I take it that you intend such a feat to grant Dex bonus to damage?  There are already a number of options available for finesse-based damage, such as sneak attack and the Duelist's precise attack, in addition to the Combat Insight feat to which you refer.  I have confidence that Vilya's damage is sufficiently high without such a feat.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 3, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> I take it that you intend such a feat to grant Dex bonus to damage?




Yeah, sorry I should have been more blunt on that, and I was also more worried about Brystasia but you are right.  With her sneak attacks (2d6), and her own ability to remove dex bonus from opponents (improved trip) it could get ugly as is.


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## Paxus Asclepius (Jun 3, 2004)

Well, the sneak attack damage itself isn't going to be too bad, as a pair of energy enhancements could do the same.  It's mostly that opponents vulnerable to being tripped may suffer numerous attacks, both from you and from Vilya, should they lose their footing in a melee situation.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 3, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Well, the sneak attack damage itself isn't going to be too bad, as a pair of energy enhancements could do the same.



True.   I do have flaming burst though... I had to mimic the boss lady herself... ya know? 

I can't afford it now but I'm curious about what you think of Heavenly Burst.  It's exalted, not a clue on the page number but there’s not to many pages of magic items.  Anyhow it’s 3d6 on a burst, a “chance” of blinding someone, and deals 1d2 temporary strength damage to wielding in the process.   +2 bonus

Would you be okay with this later in the game?  (I haven’t really seen anything else that caught my eye for a whip.



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> It's mostly that opponents vulnerable to being tripped may suffer numerous attacks, both from you and from Vilya, should they lose their footing in a melee situation.



Yeah that's the game plan for allot of things...  Brystasia has, improved trip, the sweeping enchantment that was on her whip originally so she should be capable of tripping at least most of the time. 

I'm pretty sure your okay with the feat and the sweeping enchantment stacking in sweeping attacks as she did have but at the same time orginaly but I should probably ask.  I know your going to say something like named bonus don’t stack but to be honest I think everyone interrupts that differently.


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## Paxus Asclepius (Jun 3, 2004)

Named bonuses don't stack.  Improved Trip is an unnamed bonus.  Ergo, it stacks.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 4, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Named bonuses don't stack.  Improved Trip is an unnamed bonus.  Ergo, it stacks.



Yaw know PA it looks like it doesn't matter...  I just read the feat again in my 3.5 book and you only get the bonus for unarmed attacks...  :\ 

3.0 says nothing about being unarmed, do you see any issue with keeping the 3.0 feat or should I chose another feat?  I just don't see Brystasia as being capable of tripping to many people when unarmed, she lacks the power.


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## Paxus Asclepius (Jun 4, 2004)

What the SRD says is "You also gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to trip your opponent. If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt."  Neither of those rules are limited to unarmed attacks.  The only rule which applies to unarmed attacks alone is that you no longer provoke AoOs; this rule only applies to unarmed attacks because "Some weapons can be used to make trip attacks. In this case, you make a melee touch attack with the weapon instead of an unarmed melee touch attack, and you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity."  Thus, as armed trip attempts never provoke AoOs, Improved Trip does not need to negate those AoOs.

This is the DM's ruling.  So let it be written, so let it be done.


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## Serpenteye (Jun 4, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Serpenteye, I hate to a bearer of bad news but after looking through about 5 books, PGtF, Compete Warrior, Complete Divine, Defenders of the Faith, and the Book of Exalted Deeds the best I have found was a +10 BAB and a CL of +9.  It lacked +1 to the existing caster level at first level.
> 
> So tell me what you want for Sandorel, like do you want him to be a mega undead killer a mega healer, etc. and I’ll start working on getting it to you.




Thanks, I hope it's not too much work for you. 

Mega spellcaster, I think, both arcane and divine. I only wanted the full Bab for maxi-buffed Shapechenged-into-something-awful butt-kicking, but it's better to work with his strengths. 



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Spell/level progression is through the Improved Spell Capacity feat; given that you might have two classes which grant it as bonus feats, that can add up very quickly.




And that feat only works for one of the caster-classes per taking, right? And we only get the feats for one of our classes, meaning that Gestalt will be effectively meaningless for those level spells.
Without his epic buffs Sandorel won't get many (if any) bonus spells for high abilities and get merely one spell/day for one class for one taking of the feat. I better come up with some kick-ass 10th level spells.
How does learming new spells work for his Sorcerer class? Does he have to pick Improved Spell Knowledge every time?


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## Paxus Asclepius (Jun 4, 2004)

You're right; I hadn't considered how much that would reduce spell-level increases.  I'll tentatively let the feat work for each class that you fill the prereqs for, and sorcerors gain one spell known of each new level.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 4, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Thanks, I hope it's not too much work for you.




No problem. 



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Mega spellcaster, I think, both arcane and divine. I only wanted the full Bab for maxi-buffed Shapechenged-into-something-awful butt-kicking, but it's better to work with his strengths.




I might need help on the Mega spellcaster PrCs, as I don't know the spells that well.  Maybe PA could help.  Name some PrCs that meat what Serpenteye wants and that you will allow and I'll get him the required information.

Sound good? 

PA, Bry will be done this weekend.


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## Paxus Asclepius (Jun 4, 2004)

Incantatrix is right out.  I'll allow thaumaturge, archmage, and loremaster from the SRD.  None of the Tome and Blood PrCs seem to suit, being either the wrong flavor or incompete caster progression.  If the Contemplative or Divine Oracle have been modified for 3.5 in Complete Divine, those might be good choices.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 5, 2004)

PA, FYI, I'm dropping the combat feat and all equipment for a mount...  I simply don’t have the gold to protect it…  :\  (I'm just going to assume that she's never called for a mount, as she wouldn't let it go unprotected.)

Both those PrCs have seen updates in the complete divine.  I shall put Brystasia aside, which is fine cause I’m rather stuck now, finish my post in the puppy game, and then work on scanning them. 

Edit:  its late here, the PrC were sent out a few hours ago but I never did make it back to working on Brystasia...  :\  Oh well tommarow will come soon enough, and I don't mean in 10 minutes.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 5, 2004)

SE, to be honest I'm not sure if there is really any PrC for Sandorel, or at least divine PrC there might be arcane but I don’t know these PrCs that well.  You can the most out of going straight cleric and straight wizard/sorcerer.  (You’re the only one in the party with a real chance of turning undead.)

Or at least I think so, do we get bonus epic feats for both sides of the classes right or only is it only for one side of the epic class levels?  

I’m not sure how PA fills about it but the Radiant Servant of Pelor, I’m sure that the overview hasn’t changed any so he can make a call without needing to see an update.  It is without a doubt a powerful PrC and one for the most part, minus the Sun domain and some minor issues, seems to fit Sandorel.  (At least in my eye.)

He is a man after all who craves power nearly above all else and a PrC where he gives up little is probably for him. 

SE, hey I also posted in character the other day.  With your traveling and the lack of email notifications I know how easy it is to miss a post.


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## Paxus Asclepius (Jun 5, 2004)

The Radiant Servant of Pelor is very much a prestige class for priests of Pelor.  Last I checked, Sandorel didn't particularly care for Pelor.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 5, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> The Radiant Servant of Pelor is very much a prestige class for priests of Pelor.  Last I checked, Sandorel didn't particularly care for Pelor.



The PrC is adaptable for anyone with the Sun Domain...  Of course SE, would need to work upon a reason why Sandorel now has that domain, but it is possible with the epic level feat *bonus domain*.  

Anyhow, as I said I'm not seeing much that would be worth it, besides the abovem, mechanically or IC, when one considers everything.  Take cleric 20 levels and take your epic bonus feats.


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## Paxus Asclepius (Jun 5, 2004)

It could be adapted, but I'm trying to keep PrCs prestigious.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 5, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> It could be adapted, but I'm trying to keep PrCs prestigious.




And I totaly agree with this. 

Quick question on the body affinities for magic powers, you know cloak, cape, mantle = protection, while boots = movement.  They don't even include a listing for a ring, does this mean a ring can generate any other magic item?

I'm looking at the *cloak of displacement, lesser* but I don't really like magical cloaks, mainly cause Bry changes outfits when in Waterdeep so getting stuck with the same garment over and over would be frowned upon.

Anyhow would it be a straight transfer or would I half to pay for it?

Edit: What should be the range of our armor class?


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## Paxus Asclepius (Jun 5, 2004)

Rings can do just about anything that's a constant or command word effect; most target the wearer, but exceptions (such as the Rings of Shooting Stars and the Ram) have no additional cost.  Your AC should be whatever you think you can afford; I'll tailor encounters to both strengths and weaknesses, so you'll have neither walkovers nor instant TPKs except where plot-appropriate.


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## Serpenteye (Jun 6, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> You're right; I hadn't considered how much that would reduce spell-level increases.  I'll tentatively let the feat work for each class that you fill the prereqs for, and sorcerors gain one spell known of each new level.




Great, 




			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Incantatrix is right out.  I'll allow thaumaturge, archmage, and loremaster from the SRD.  None of the Tome and Blood PrCs seem to suit, being either the wrong flavor or incompete caster progression.  If the Contemplative or Divine Oracle have been modified for 3.5 in Complete Divine, those might be good choices.




The Thaumaturge is quite nice, Archmage is tempting (especially with all the wonderful clerical Touch spells) but I don't wan't to copy my other characters too much. 
I think I'll go with a simple build of Cleric / (Sorcerer, Thaumaturge.). Sandorel will be powerful enough without me trying to squeeze every drop out of the system, and since I'm so pressed for on-line time there's no point spending more than I have to on char-gen.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 6, 2004)

PA, I'm rather curious how we are going to handle breathing in Umberlee’s domain and temples.  (I’m pretty sure that most of them have under water entrances.)

I looked for an item that gave water breathing but didn't find any...  (Besides a helm) so I looked at making a ring.  (3rd spell + 5 level caster) x 2,000 = 30K.  

Anyhow, I was wondering if we should worry about this detail now while rebooting are character or if someone, like Sune, will provide an in character answer.


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## Paxus Asclepius (Jun 6, 2004)

Depending on how long you plan to be there, a single Water Breathing spell would last the three of you 14 hours.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 6, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Depending on how long you plan to be there, a single Water Breathing spell would last the three of you 14 hours.




I hate to give a DM an idea, so pretend you’re not the DM, okay? 

Right, but if dispelled we would be in a world of hurt if still in the water.  If the ring functioned on a trigger like the ring of feather falling would it lessen the cost or up it?  (Trigger would be drowning obviously)


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## Paxus Asclepius (Jun 6, 2004)

Up it considerably.  It would be quickened, which is a +4 spell level.  You don't want that.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 6, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Up it considerably.  It would be quickened, which is a +4 spell level.  You don't want that.



Nope, I don't want that...    

Why is feather falling so damn cheep then?  :\  (WotC decisions?)


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## Dalamar (Jun 6, 2004)

Because Feather Fall has Quicken built into it


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 6, 2004)

Dalamar said:
			
		

> Because Feather Fall has Quicken built into it



Feather falling is also first level...  (went and looked wife has my PHB.  )


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## Paxus Asclepius (Jun 7, 2004)

Yep.  The Ring of Feather Falling casts a 1st level spell which normally has a casting time of Free Action.  Water Breathing is a 3rd level spell which is normally a standard action to cast.  Big difference there.  You'd be better off with a constant item of Water Breathing; as base duration is 2 hrs/level, it'd cost 3x5x2000x.5=15K.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 7, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> You'd be better off with a constant item of Water Breathing; as base duration is 2 hrs/level, it'd cost 3x5x2000x.5=15K.



Yeah, good point, but I'm getting low on money and I should look at spells and their component costs and such before I get to crazy.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 7, 2004)

PA, is there any spells you would like to see outlawed?


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## Paxus Asclepius (Jun 7, 2004)

Is there a spell in particular you want that you think I'll veto?


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 7, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Is there a spell in particular you want that you think I'll veto?



Here are my 9th level spells:

*9th level:* 4; Dominate Monster, Energy Drain, Miracle, True Resurrection

Miracle, just makes good IC sense and Brystasia isn't likely to bother Sune not in less its life and death anyways.

Dominate Monster, is from the charm domain. (FRCS)

Energy Drain, just seems a tad bit crazy if you ask me.  No Save and such strikes me as very powerful, maybe to so…  :\


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## Paxus Asclepius (Jun 7, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Here are my 9th level spells:
> 
> *9th level:* 4; Dominate Monster, Energy Drain, Miracle, True Resurrection
> 
> ...




Energy Drain is fine; it's a touch attack which can be perfectly blocked by a 4th level spell, or fixed with Restoration-type magic.  Miracle is a no-no, as are Wish and Limited Wish for arcanists; they really defeat the purpose of epic magics, whether they're Epic Spells of ELH brokenness or merely a 12th level spell.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 7, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Miracle is a no-no, as are Wish and Limited Wish for arcanists.




I can see where you’re coming on that...  :\  

Do you have any spell recommendations for me when, and if, Brystasia needs Sune's intervention?   (and you better not say miracle!    )

I will also have a few spells to email you...


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## Paxus Asclepius (Jun 7, 2004)

Beg and Plead with Deity?

Divine intervention is something that happens when the god wants it to happen, not when the character does.  Even the Chosen of deities don't get direct access whenever they want it; Elminster or Fzoul can yell all they want, but can't do anything to compel or direct the power of their god.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 7, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Beg and Plead with Deity?




I'm not finding that spell...  :\   Do you have a book and page number?   

Good points and all.  I'm not sure if Sune, or most of the other FR deities, would abandoned their worshipers in this way but I can understand the need for game balance.


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## Paxus Asclepius (Jun 7, 2004)

I've never, in any of the FR books, either novel or sourcebook, seen an instance where a deity directly answered a call for aid in the manner which Miracle entails.  Most acts of divine intervention are for the deity's purpose, not the clerics, or occur on behalf of Elminster.  I am not Ed Greenwood, and neither (unless I'm sorely mistaken) are any of my players.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 7, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> I've never, in any of the FR books, either novel or sourcebook, seen an instance where a deity directly answered a call for aid in the manner which Miracle entails.



Probaly, I don't read many of the novels...  I did read the anzure bonds Probably, I don't read many of the novels and it has been years...  I did recall that in the azure bonds and Finder seemed to help out the Saurials that would come to worship him but I think your point of view is best served by the example of at the beginning of the avatar series when the Faerûn gods are sitting around watching like Greek gods. 



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> I am not Ed Greenwood, and neither (unless I'm sorely mistaken) are any of my players.



Darn what gave me away.    

Hey thanks for the quick reply on the spells.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 7, 2004)

Here's a full list of Brystasia’s Favored Soul spells.  (I could use help on some of these I imagine)

*Zero level:* 9; Create Water, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Light, Hygiene, Mending, Purify Food/Drink, Quick Boost, Resistance
*1st level:* 6; Charm person, Divine Favor, Entropic Shield, Protection from Evil, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith
*2nd level:* 6; Consecrate, Cure Moderate Wounds, Eagle’s Splendor, Hold Person, Resist Energy, Silence 
*3rd level:* 6; Guided Weapon, Magic Circle Against Evil, Obscure Object, Remove Curse, Suggestion, Water Breathing 
*4th level:* 6; Blade of the Archangel, Divine Power, Freedom of Movement, Halo of Glory, Magic Weapon Greater, Restoration 
*5th level:* 6; Charm monster, Commune, Halo of Shelter, Righteous Might, Spell Resistance, True Seeing
*6th level:* 6; Angel's Redoubt, Blade Barrier, Geas/Quest, Heal, Dispel Magic (Greater), Undeath to Death
*7th level:* 6; Empyreal Ecstasy, Holy Word, Insanity, Restoration Greater, Repulsion, Righteous Smite 
*8th level:* 5; Demand, Fire Storm, Holy Aura, Mind Blank, Summon Monster VIII
*9th level:* 4; Dominate Monster, Energy Drain, True Resurrection, Visage of the Deity, Greater

I will also edit in spells that are not in the core book. (Slate Grey means I'm working on it but they are from the CBoEM.) (Cyan is part of the Charm Domain)

Hygiene 
Transmutation 
Level: Adp 0, Brd 0, Clr 0, Drd 0, Pal 1, Sor/Wiz 0 
Components: V, S
Casting Time: Standard action 
Range: Touch
Target: One creature 
Duration: Instantaneous 
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates 
Spell Resistance: Yes

You clean one creature, ridding it of dirt, sweat, contamination, foul odors, and so on. This spell not only makes its 
subject presentable for fine company, it promotes better health. For 24 hours after the casting, the affected creature gains a +t circumstance bonus on all saves against disease. Used frequently, this spell can help stave off tooth decay and other such minor maladies, although this has no in-game effect.


Quick Boost  
Transmutation
Level: Clr o, Sor/Wiz o 
Components: V, S 
Casting Time: Standard action 
Range: Touch
Target: One living creature 
Duration: id4 rounds (D) 
Saving Throw: None 
Spell Resistance: Yes

Calling up a short-lived but intense burst of positive energy, you bestow a +z enhancement bonus to the Constitution, Dexterity, or Strength score of one creature.

Guided Weapon
Evocation [Force]
Level: Ava 3, Clr 3 
Components: V, S, DF 
Casting Time: 1 action 
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) 
Effect: Magic weapon made of force 
Duration: I round/level (D) 
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

A melee weapon made of pure force springs into existence and attacks opponents at a distance, much as with the spiritual weapon spell. Like a spiritual weapon, the guided weapon takes the shape of a weapon favored by your deity (or one with some spiritual significance or symbolism to you, if you have no deity). It has the same threat range 
and critical multipliers as a real weapon of its form. It strikes the opponent you designate, starting with one attack the round the spell is cast and continuing each round thereafter. It uses your base attack bonus (possibly allowing it multiple attacks per round), but adds your Charisma or Wisdom modifier (for an avatar or cleric, respectively) instead of your Strength or Dexterity modifier. Like a spiritual weapon, the guided weapon strikes as a spell, not as a weapon.

The guided weapon strikes from your direction, and unlike its lower-level counterpart, it can help an ally get a flanking bonus and can benefit from a flanking bonus or an ally's aid another action. Feats such as Weapon Focus, Power Attack, and similar abilities do not affect attacks made with the weapon, and you cannot make sneak attacks with it.

The guided weapon continues to attack the designated foe unless it travels out of range, in which case the weapon returns to you. You can direct the weapon to attack a new foe once per round as a free action. If left undirected, the weapon continues to attack the last designated foe. As with the spiritual weapon spell, if a designated target has SR, 
the resistance is checked the first time the weapon strikes it. If the guided weapon is successfully resisted, the spell is dispelled; otherwise, the weapon has its normal full effect on that creature for the duration of the spell.

Blade of the Archangel 
Transmutation
Level: Ava 4, Clr 4 
Components: V, S, DF 
Casting Time: 1 action 
Range: Touch
Target: Weapon touched 
Duration: 1 round/level 
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless, object) 
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless, object)

You imbue a weapon with the force of pure good and bless it with holy power. While so affected, the weapon glows with a silvery radiance and trails light through the air behind it.

For the duration of the spell, the affected weapon deals an additional 2d6 points of holy damage with each successful hit against an evil opponent. An evil creature attempting to wield the affected weapon takes a -2 sacred penalty on attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, and saving throws.

Halo of Glory
Transmutation [Good] 
Level: Clr 4, Hallowed Mage 4 
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: Standard action 
Range: Touch
Target: One creature of a nonevil alignment 
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None 
Spell Resistance: No

This spell allows the caster to confer the celestial template on a creature for a very short time. The target also glows with  divine energy (particularly around the head) that illuminates 5-foot radius. 

Material Component: A vial of holy water

Halo of Shelter 
Abjuration [Good]

Level: Clr 5, Hallowed Mage 5 
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: Standard action 
Range: Touch
Target: One creature of a nonevil alignment 
Duration: One minute/level (D)
Saving Throw: None 
Spell Resistance: No

You create a halo around a subject that can sustain 5 hit points of damage per caster level. All incoming damage (hit point damage-normal or nonlethal-but not ability score damage) is subtracted from the halo before any of it reaches the target; as long as the halo has any hit points left, it absorbs the entire attack.

Thus, if a 9th-level cleric casts halo of shelter upon a subject, the halo has 45 hp. If the subject is then struck by a sword that deals 13 points of damage, the halo absorbs the damage and has 32 hp left. If the target then falls into a pit and suffers 20 points of damage, he sustains no damage himself, leaving the halo with 12 hp. If the target is then in the area of a fireball which inflicts 24 points of damage, the halo is destroyed, but the subject remains unscathed. The halo also blocks any effect accompanying an attack that requires damage to be inflicted, such as a poisonous bite or the effects of an axe of wounding.

The target glows with divine energy (particularly around the head) that illuminates a 5-foot radius.

Damage from artifacts, spells of 7th level or above, and +5 weapons bypasses the halo. The halo does not protect against nondamaging attacks like cause fear, gaze attacks, or disintegrate (although it would absorb the damage inflicted by a disintegrate spell if the subject's save succeeds).

Material Components: Four vials of holy water

Angel's Redoubt  
Conjuration (Creation) [Good] 
Level: Clr 6

Components: V, S, M 
Casting Time: One minute 
Range: Medium (l00 feet + 10 feet/level) 
Effect: A tower 20 feet square and 30 feet tall 
Duration: Two hours/level
Saving Throw: No 
Spell Resistance: No

You conjure a fortified tower made of stone upon a flat surface. There are two floors and a flat roof with battlements, all connected by narrow stairs inside. In all respects the structure resembles a normal tower with an iron door and three shuttered windows on the upper level (stairs lead from the ground level outside up to the door), and a small fireplace.

The shelter has a comfortable temperature and atmosphere no matter what the conditions are like outside. The tower provides considerable security-the stone walls measure 4 feet thick, and the iron door 2 inches thick. The structure itself resists spells cast directly upon it as if it had spell resistance 25. It is impervious to normal missiles, but not the sort cast by siege machinery or giants.

The door, shutters, and even chimney remain secure against intrusion, the former two being arcane locked and the latter secured by an iron grate at the top and a narrow flue. Finally, seven conjured celestial dogs watch over and protect the tower for the duration.

The tower contains elegant furnishings: 12 bunks, a trestle table, eight chairs, two benches, and a writing desk. The interior decor includes reliefs and tapestries depicting angels and other holy beings.

Material Components: A small block of granite and a white feather dipped in holy water


Empyreal Ecstasy 
Abjuration
Level: Bard 6, Pleasure 7 
Components: V, S, DF 
CastingTime: 1 round 
Range: 30 ft.
Target: One creature/level 
Duration: l minute/level (D) 
Saving Throw: Will negates 
Spell Resistance: Yes

Like the ease pain spell, empyreal ecstasy immediately removes any lingering effects of pain, including penalties imposed by symbol of pain, angry ache, and similar spells. It neither prevents damage nor blocks other effects not directly related to pain (such as the recall agony or recall pain psionic power).

The spell also induces a pleasurable fuguelike state that yields a number of additional effects:

First, empyreal ecstasy renders its targets immune to mind-affecting spells and effects for the spell's duration, but does not negate mind-influencing effects already in place.

Second, targets of the spell take only half damage from all melee and ranged attacks for the duration of the spell.

Third, the fuguelike state induced by the spell makes it difficult for targets to concentrate on certain tasks. Creatures in ecstasy take a -4 penalty on all skill checks, and casting a spell while under the influence of empyreal ecstasy requires a DC 15 Concentration check.

Righteous Smite 
Evocation [Good] 
level: Cleric 7, exalted arcanist 7, Wrath 7
Components: U, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action 
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) 
Area: 20-ft. radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will partial; see text Spell Resistance: Yes

You draw down holy power to smite your enemies. Only evil and neutral creatures are harmed by the spell; good creatures are unaffected.

The spell deals 1d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 20d6) to evil creatures (or 1d8 points of damage per caster level, maximum 2od8, to evil outsiders) and blinds them for 1d4 rounds. A successful Will saving throw reduces damage to half and negates the blinding effect.

The spell deals only half damage against creatures that are neither good nor evil, and they are not blinded. They can reduce that damage by half (down to one-quarter of the roll) with a successful Will save.

Visage of the Deity, Greater 
Transmutation [Evil, Good]
Level: Cleric 9
Components: V S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action 
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level


As lesser visage of the deity, except that you take on the qualities of a half-celestial or half-fiend (see the Monster Manual 
for complete details). You do not gain the spell-like abilities of these creatures.

Your creature type changes to outsider for the duration of the spell. Unlike other outsiders, you can be brought back from the dead if you are killed in this form.

Good clerics undergo the following transformations:

• You grow feathered wings that allow you to fly at twice your normal speed (good maneuverability).

• You gain +1 natural armor. 

• You gain low-light vision.

• You gain resistance 10 to acid, cold, and electricity. 

• You gain immunity to disease.

• You gain a +4 racial bonus on saving throws against poison.

• You gain damage reduction 10/magic. 

• You gain spell resistance 25.

• You gain the following bonuses to your ability scores: +4 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Int, +4 Wis, +4 Cha


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 7, 2004)

Okay, all the spells are found and have been edited in.  Halo of Glory doesn't strike me as being that great anymore...  :\


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 7, 2004)

Gestalt Brystasia, most of it is done...  I need to pick paladin and Pious Templar spells, double check the math, maybe play around with the feats, and spend a few more coins.  (Mainly on few spell components* Brystasia will need.)

*  PA, I Take it your wanting to track everything 25 GPs and above? 


*Character Name:* Brystasia Purelove
*Character Race:* Half-Nymph/Human
*Character Classes:* Holy Warrior 12/Favored Soul 12/Heartwarder 8/Pious Templar 4/Rogue 4 
*Alignment:* Chaotic Good
*Deity:* Sune

*Gender:* Female
*Age:* 26
*Height:* 5’11” 
*Weight:* 129
*Eyes:* Turquoise Blue
*Hair:*  Slivery Blonde

*Experience Points (Current):* 210,001
*Experience Points (Needed):* 231,000
*Character Level:* 20
*Effective Character Level:* 21

*Known Languages:* Common, Sylvan, Celestial, Elven, Draconic, Dwarven, Goblin

-------------------------------------------------------

*Strength:* 13 +1 *17 +3* (2 points, Book +3) Enchant +4
*Dexterity:* 22 +6 *26 +8* (6 points, +2 Racial, +1 12th level, Book +5) Enchant +4
*Constitution:* 19 +4 *25 +7* (6 points, Book +5) Enchant +6
*Intelligence:* 16 +3 (6 points, +2 Racial) 
*Wisdom:* 21 +5 (6 points, +2 Racial, Book +5) 
*Charisma:* 31 +10 (6 points, +4 Racial, +3 4th, 8th,16th, 20th level, +4 PrC, Book +5)

*Bold:* After magical enchantment
-------------------------------------------------------

*Hit Dice:* 4d8,16d10 +7 
*Hit Points:* 286 
*Armor Class:* 40 [ BASE (10) + ARMOR (7) + DEX (8) + SHIELD (6) + DASTANA (6) +DEFLECTION (2) + DODGE (1)]
*Flatfooted Armor Class:* 40
*Touch Attack Armor Class:* 19
*Damage Resistance:* 1/-
*Spell Resistance:* 0
-----------------------------

*Armor Worn:* Nightscale +5
*AC Penalty: * 0
*Maximum DEX bonus: * +10
*Armor Type:* Light
*Weight:* 3 lbs.

*Shield Used:* Mithral Buckler +5
*AC Penalty: * 0
*Maximum DEX bonus: * -
*Weight:* 2.5 lbs.

*Other:* Mithral Dastana +5
*AC Penalty: * 0
*Maximum DEX bonus: * -
*Weight:* 2.5 lbs.

*Notes:* 
Uncanny Dodge (Dex AC)
-------------------------------------------------------

*Save vs. Fortitude:* 29 [BASE (12) + DEVINE GRACE (10) + CON MOD (7)]
*Save vs. Reflex:* 30 [BASE (11) + DEVINE GRACE (10) + DEX MOD (9)]
*Save vs. Will:* 27 [BASE (12) + DEVINE GRACE (10) + WIS MOD (5)]

*Special Save Notes:* 
Divine Grace (Holy Warrior)
Evasion: Successful reflex for no damage (Rogue)
Mettle: Successful fortitude or wisdom against spells for no damage  (Pious Templar)

-------------------------------------------------------

*Initiative Modifier:* +9
*Base Attack Bonus:* +19/+15/+10/+5

*Melee Attack Bonus:* +22/+18/+13/+8
*Ranged Attack Bonus:* +27/+24/+19/+14
-------------------------------------------------------

*Weapons:*

* Mighty (+1) Sword Whip +5, Sweeping, Flaming Burst * +32/+29/+24/+14 1d6+6 / Critical: 19-20 / Slashing / 4 lbs. Trip: +12	 (128,550 GP)
Sweeping (MoF pg 141)

*Weapon weight:* 4 lbs.
-------------------------------------------------------

*Skills : *

Name/Total Mod (Ability) ** # Ranks taken
Appraise /5 (Int + 3) 2
Balance /15 (Dex + 8) 7
Bluff /15 (Cha + 10) 5
Concentration / 23 (Con + 7) 16
Diplomacy /28 (Cha + 10) 18
Decipher Script /5 (Int + 3) 2
Gather Information /20 (Cha + 10) 10
Hide /15 (Dex + 8) 7
Intimidate / 10	(Cha + 10) 0
Jump /	3 (Str + 3) 0
Knowledge: Religion /13 (Int + 3) 10
Listen /12 (Wis + 5) 7
Move Silently /15 (Dex + 8) 7
Perform: Dance /21 (Cha + 10) 11
Perform: Sing /21 (Cha + 10) 11
Perform: String Instruments /12 (Cha + 10) 2
Search /10 (Int + 3) 7
Sense Motive /15 (Wis + 5) 10
Speak Language: 2 (Dwarven, Goblin)
Spellcraft /13 (Int + 3) 10
Spot /12 (Wis + 5) 7
Swim / 10 (Str + 3) 7
Tumble /15 (Dex	+8) 7
Use Magic Device /15 (Cha + 10) 5

* Armor Check Penalty Applies
[CC] Cross Class Skill
-------------------------------------------------------

*Feats *
True Believer (Human)
Spell Focus (Enchantment) (1st feat)
Dodge (2nd feat)
Mobility (3rd feat)
Power Attack (4th feat)
Weapon Finesse (5th feat)
Divine Might (6th feat)
Combat Expert (7th feat)
Improved Trip (Favored Soul 12th level feat)
Improved Buckler (Pious Templar 4th level bonus feat)


Empower Turning (Greater Sune Holy Symbol)

*Special Abilities*
Awesome Beauty DC: 29 (Nymph)
Fey Bloodline (Nymph)
Low-Light Vision (Nymph)
1 Extra Feat (Human)
4 Skill Points (Human)
1 Skill Point/Level (Human)
Divine Grace (Holy Warrior)
Divine Health (Holy Warrior)
Aura of Courage (Holy Warrior)
Confer Blessing 12/day (Holy Warrior) 12 temporary Hit Points for 24 hours, plus +4 on fear saves for 120 minutes
Healer’s Aid 1/day (Holy Warrior) Max hit points gained on heal spell, +1 for each Holy Warrior level and the casters level.
Sacrifice (Holy Warrior) trade HP with other target while absorbing their damage
Turn Undead 13 /day (Holy Warrior)
Deity’s Weapon Focus: Whip (Favored Soul)
Energy Resistance: Acid, Fire (Favored Soul)
Heart of Passion (Heartwarder)
Lips of Rapture 10/Day (Heartwarder)
Tears of Evergold (Heartwarder)
Charisma Increase +4 (Heartwarder)
Mettle (Pious Templar)
Smite 1/Day (Pious Templar) +4 to attack + 4 to damage
Damage Reduction 1/- (Pious Templar)
Weapon Specialization: Whip (Pious Templar)
Bonus Feat (Pious Templar)

------------------------------------------------------- 

*Equipment & Gear:* 
Manual of Quick Action +5, used Inherent (137,500 GP)
Tome of Leadership and Understanding +5, used Inherent (137,500 GP)
Manual of Bodily Health +5, used Inherent (137,500 GP)
Tome of Understanding +5, used Inherent (137,500 GP)
Manual of Gainful Strength +3, used Inherent (82,500 GP)

Head: 
Eyes: 
Neck: Amulet of Health +6 (36,000 GP)
Torso: 
Robe/Armor: Sacred (Sune) Nightscale +5 
Waist: Belt of Giant Strength +4 (16,000 GP) (1 lbs.)
Clock/cape/mantle:  
Arms: 
Hands: Gloves of Dexterity +4 (16,000 GP) (nil lbs.)
Ring Left Hand: Ring of Lesser Displacement, Swimming, Feather Falling and Hygiene (32,550 GP) (nil lbs.)
Ring Right Hand: Ring of Protection +2 (8,000 GP) (nil lbs.)
Feet: Boots of springing/striding and of the Winterlands (9,250 GP) (1 lbs.)

Heward’s Handy Haversack (2,000 GP)
-Greater Sune Holy Symbol (5,040 GP) (1 lbs.)

*EQUIPMENT WEIGHT:* 3 lbs.
*ARMOR WEIGHT:* 8 lbs.
*WEAPON WEIGHT:* 4 lbs.
*TOTAL WEIGHT:* 15 lbs.

*Carrying Capacity* 17 STR *Light:* up to 86 lb. *Medium:* 87-200 lb. *Heavy:* 201-260 lb.


-------------------------------------------------------

*Money:* 
PP: 0
GP: 8,551 GP
SP: 0
CP: 0
-------------------------------------------------------

*Base Speed:* 30 feet *40 feet*


*Spells:* Holy Warrior (Wisdom)
*1st level:* 1+2
*2nd level:* 1+1
*3rd level:*1+1

1st level Memorized 
Divine Favor

*Spells:* Favored Soul (Charisma)
*Favored Soul Domains:* Charm, Protection
*Caster Level:* 20
*Difficulty Class:* 15 + Spell Level

Favored Soul Spells per Day

*Zero level:* 6+3
*1st level:* 6+3
*2nd level:* 6+2
*3rd level:* 6+2
*4th level:* 6+2
*5th level:* 6+2
*6th level:* 6+2
*7th level:* 6+1
*8th level:* 6+1
*9th level:* 6+1


Favored Soul Spells Known
*Zero level:* 9; Create Water, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Light, Hygiene, Mending, Purify Food/Drink, Quick Boost, Resistance
*1st level:* 6; Charm person, Divine Favor, Entropic Shield, Protection from Evil, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith
*2nd level:* 6; Consecrate, Cure Moderate Wounds, Eagle’s Splendor, Hold Person, Resist Energy, Silence 
*3rd level:* 6; Guided Weapon, Magic Circle Against Evil, Obscure Object, Remove Curse, Suggestion, Water Breathing 
*4th level:* 6; Blade of the Archangel, Divine Power, Freedom of Movement, Halo of Glory, Magic Weapon Greater, Restoration 
*5th level:* 6; Charm monster, Commune, Halo of Shelter, Righteous Might, Spell Resistance, True Seeing
*6th level:* 6; Angel's Redoubt, Blade Barrier, Geas/Quest, Heal, Dispel Magic (Greater), Undeath to Death
*7th level:* 6; Empyreal Ecstasy, Holy Word, Insanity, Restoration Greater, Repulsion, Righteous Smite 
*8th level:* 5; Demand, Fire Storm, Holy Aura, Mind Blank, Summon Monster VIII
*9th level:* 4; Dominate Monster, Energy Drain, True Resurrection, Visage of the Deity, Greater

*Spells:* Pious Templar (Wisdom)
*1st level:* 1+2
*2nd level:* 1+1


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 7, 2004)

PA, she's had the greater Sune holy symbol since the last game but the empower turning feat has changed in the complete divine. 

Anyhow let me know if you really dislike it. 



> Empower Turning
> 
> You can turn or rebuke more undead with a single turning attempt.
> 
> ...


----------



## Serpenteye (Jun 7, 2004)

*A preview*

lvl 21 Gestalt (Cleric 20 Epic Cleric 1 / Sorcerer 15, Archmage 5, Epic Sorcerer 1)

Feats:
* Spell Prodigy
* Improved Counterspell
* Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
* Spell Focus (Enchantment)
* Spell Focus (Transmutation)
* Spell Penetration
* Reactive Counterspell
* Leadership
Epic: 
* Improved Spell Capacity

High Arcana:
* Mastery of Counterspelling (-7)
* Mastery of Elements (-8)
* Spell Power (-5)
* Spell Power (-5)
* Spell Power (-5)
---

Btw how much money do we have?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 7, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> lvl 21 Gestalt (Cleric 20 Epic Cleric 1 / Sorcerer 15, Archmage 5, Epic Sorcerer 1)



I believe your sorcerer level should be 16 and not broken like that. 



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Btw how much money do we have?




Standard 21 level money.  (If you’re needing that give me a second to look it up in the SRD.)

Edit:  Hell I don't know the SRD that well, I can't find it but I'm pretty sure its 960,000


----------



## Serpenteye (Jun 7, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> I believe your sorcerer level should be 16 and not broken like that.



Then we wouldn't know how his bonus spell progression would be, since iirc Archmages get a different progression than sorcerers.



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Standard 21 level money.  (If you’re needing that give me a second to look it up in the SRD.)
> 
> Edit:  Hell I don't know the SRD that well, I can't find it but I'm pretty sure its 960,000




I don't think it is in the SRD, for some reason.


----------



## Dalamar (Jun 7, 2004)

975,000gp for a character of 21st level. And here's Vilya's current version, I still need to go through her with lots of care to make sure the math adds up and all that.

Vilya Desertleaf
Bard/Fighter 12 and Bard/Dervish 9
Speed 75ft (run 375ft)

*Str* 24 (+7) *Dex* 30 (+10) *Con* 24 (+7) *Int* 14 (+2) *Wis* 10 (--) *Cha* 27 (+8)

*HP:* 314 *Init:* +12 (+10 Dex, +2 Improved Reaction)
*Armor Class:* 38 (+10 Armor, +10 Dex, +5 Deflection, +3 Dervish)
*Saves:* Fort +22 (+10 base, +7 Con, +5 Resistance), Ref +29 (+14 base, +10 Dex, +5 Resistance), Will +19 (+14 base, +5 Resistance)
*Skills (Ranks):* 192 skill points
Balance +17(5), Bluff +13(5), Climb +17(10), Concentration +27(20), Diplomacy +17(5), Escape Artist +15(5), Gather Information +14(5), Hide +30(20), Intimidate +15(5), Jump +35(10), Listen +15(15), Move Silently +30(20), Perform (Dance) +32(24), Perform (Singing) +32(24), Sense Motive +5(5), Survival +2(2cc), Tumble +22(10)
*Conditional skill bonuses:* +4 to Jump for running jumps
*Feats:* 7 fighter, 7 regular
Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Greater Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Greater Weapons Specialization (Scimitar), Improved Critical (Scimitar), Improved Disarm, Mobility, Power Attack, Quick-Draw, Run, Spring Attack (Dervish bonus), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Weapon Specialization (Scimitar)
*Epic Feats:* 1 regular
Epic Speed
*Class features:*
AC bonus +3, Bardic Knowledge +23, Bardic Music 21/day, Countersong, Dance of Death, Dervish Dance 3/day, Elaborate Parry, Fascinate (7 creatures), Fast Movement +15ft (enhancement bonus), Improved Reaction, Inspire Competence, Inspire Courage +4, Inspire Greatness (5 creatures), Inspire Heroics (3 creatures), Mass Suggestion, Movement Mastery, Slashing Blades, Song of Freedom (CL 21), Tireless Dance

*Attack Routine:*
Adamantine +5 Flaming Burst Ghost touch Scimitar +38/+33/+28/+23 melee (d6+16+d6 fire, 15-20/x2+d10 fire)

*Spells:*
Cast per day: 4/6/6/6/6/5/5, DC 18+ spell's level
Known:
_0th (6):_ Know Direction, Lullaby, Mending, Message, Open/Close, Prestidigitation
_1st (5):_ Charm Person, Comprehend Languages, Cure Light Wounds, Remove Fear, Ventriloquism
_2nd (5):_ Calm Emotions, Enthrall, Shatter, Silence, Tongues
_3rd (5):_ Charm Monster, Fear, Glibness, See Invisibility, Wounding Whispers (Magic of Faerun p.134)
_4th (5):_ Detect Scrying, Freedom of Movement, Legend Lore, Modify Memory, Zone of Silence
_5th (5):_ Dream, False Vision, Greater Heroism, Song of Discord, Mass Suggestion
_6th (4):_ Analyze Dweomer, Find the Path, Otto's Irresistible Dance, Sympathetic Vibration

*Equipment:* 16,485 gold left
Amulet of Health +6 (36,000gp)
Bag of Holding I (2,500gp)
Belt of Strength +6 (36,000gp)
Bracers of Armor +10 (100,000gp)
Cloack of Displacement, Minor (24,000gp)
Gloves of Dexterity +6 (36,000gp)
Manual of Bodily Health +5 (137,500gp)
Manual of Gainful Excercise +5 (137,500gp)
Manual of Quickness of Action +5 (137,500gp)
Ring of Protection +5 (50,000gp)
Scarf of Charisma +6 (hat slot, 36,000gp)
Scimitar, Adamantine +5 Ghost Touch Flaming Burst (131,315gp)
Spell foci and components:
--Small lens of sapphire set in a golden loop, Focus for Analyze Dweomer (1,500gp)
--ground dust of a jade, material component for False Vision (4 uses) (1,000gp)
--four strips of ivory, Focus for Legend Lore (200gp)
--Incense, material component for Legend Lore (4 uses) (1,000gp)
Tome of Leadership +5 (137,500gp)
Vest of Resistance +5 (25,000gp)


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Jun 7, 2004)

Serpenteye, Brother Shatterstone is correct; epic class benefits are gained at _class_ level 21, not character level 21, so that last level of sorceror is non-epic.  Cash is 975K.

Brother Shatterstone, I'm alright with the Greater Holy Symbol and Empower Turning feats as they are.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 7, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Brother Shatterstone, I'm alright with the Greater Holy Symbol and Empower Turning feats as they are.



I'm sorry I didn't really understand.  Did you mean you like the new feat in the complete divine or do you want to use the one that is in the DotF? (3.0)


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Jun 8, 2004)

I will use the one from Complete Divine.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 19, 2004)

SE, hey did you get gestalt Sandorel done yet? 

Also on a side note Sandorel is more than welcome to chase after Bry if he feels the need.


----------



## Serpenteye (Jun 21, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> SE, hey did you get gestalt Sandorel done yet?




I'm really sorry about the delay, 



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Also on a side note Sandorel is more than welcome to chase after Bry if he feels the need.




That would depend on just how wise he is at the moment. If he's still at 74 he would probably realise the futility of love and be strong enough to fight it.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 21, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> I'm really sorry about the delay,




Don't Be.



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> That would depend on just how wise he is at the moment. If he's still at 74 he would probably realise the futility of love and be strong enough to fight it.




:LMAO:  Way to funny, I guess we need PA to rule on rather those two spells are still active...

Are they?


----------



## Serpenteye (Jun 22, 2004)

I'm finally (almost) done with updating Sandorel. Nothing is optimized, everything is from the SRD and I'm not quite sure about some choices. He is, however, ready for play. We will still have to agree on a few 10th level spells, and I'll begin working on that shortly.
I reserve the right to make some, minor changes and improvements in the spell-selection.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 22, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> I reserve the right to make some, minor changes and improvements in the spell-selection.



Lawyer!!!!   

Actually Brystasia is in the same condition as I think I have minor work to do on her.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Jun 22, 2004)

For the spells, the easier way to make them is to simply upgrade an existing spell, using current spells as a guideline.  For example, increasing the spell Slay Living from a touch attack to a short-ranged non-attack raises it two levels(Finger of Death); increasing it from one target to 1/level raises it another two (Wail of the Banshee).  The same could be done for Disintegrate, creating a 10th level spell that deals 2d6/level, maximum of 50d6, to one creature per level within medium range.  Note that Temporal Stasis can't be modified in this way; the only thing keeping that spell within a hair of balance is that it requires a melee touch attack.


----------



## Serpenteye (Jun 24, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> The same could be done for Disintegrate, creating a 10th level spell that deals 2d6/level, maximum of 50d6, to one creature per level within medium range.




That looks quite nice. If we can make it 2d6/level, maximum of 50d6, to one creature or (a 5x5x5ft piece of an) object per level within medium range, Fort save for half damage I think I'll choose it as one of my new Sorc spells.

For another spell I'm thinking about an improvement to the Spell Trap (a 2nd edition 9th lvl spell, that the Rod of Absorption is based on). A 10th level spell that absorbs 4d6 (average of 14) spell levels from spells and supernatural abilities with greater than personal range cast at the subject of the spell and adds the spell levels as temporary spell slots to the caster as he chooses. Duration 10min/lvl.

Another spell (cleric this time) would be an improved Holy Word/Blasphemy/Dictum/Word of Chaos that can work against any general alignment the caster chooses at the time of casting, has a greater range (60ft radius), and affects more powerful foes (instead of -10, -5, -3, -1 lvls it would affect -7, -4, -2, +-0).

Another (cleric) spell would be an improvement to the Genesis power, working the same way but without any XP or GP components.

Another (cleric) spell would be an anti-aging spell, reversing physical aging for 10 years per casting, 1 hour casting time, no expensive components.

Another spell would be the the 3,5 Miracle.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Jun 24, 2004)

The Greater Disintegrate would, as the current spell, inflict only 5d6 on a successful save.  Spell Trap looks acceptable; the Word-type spells are also fine, but still must be prepared for a chosen alignment.  The next two are permanent effects too powerful to grant without cost; some XP or expensive component must be a balancing factor.  Miracle is right out.


----------



## Serpenteye (Jun 27, 2004)

Ok, I'll make the Disintegration (1 target/level within a medium range 50d6 damage, 5d6 if saved, Fort save, SR) and the Spell Trap for my 10th lvl Sorc spells.

The Alignment Word spell is too weak compared to the 7th lvl original unless one can choose the alignment affected at casting, so I'll suggest a new spell instead that works exactly like Blasphemy but affects one target per level within a 60 ft radius regardless of the target's alignment. (It affects fewer targets and is does less to it's targets than the spell I originally suggested)

For the Genesis and the Anti-aging (which are only RP-spells after all, nothing that can break the game), I suggest a 1000gp material component for each.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Jun 27, 2004)

That sounds alright for the Genesis and anti-aging spells.  A targeted, alignment-less Blasphemy is just very, very odd thematically; it doesn't feel at all like a cleric spell to me.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 28, 2004)

Okay,

It's time to make a new OOC thread, IC too but we can hold off on that till we get ready to assault the Sea Bitch. 

Also on a side note if no one has issues I'm going to edit out the spoiler text from the very beginning of the game.


----------



## Wrahn (Jun 28, 2004)

Hey,

I just wanted to apologize for my abrupt disappearance and officially drop out of the game.  I usually only have time for the message boards at work and since they started the move to the new building here, the internet has been slow, very slowing, causing me to drop the connection (automatically, I have no control over it).

Somedays (like today) are better, but I can't reliable maintain access.  So I am sticking with only one game, the slowest of all the games that I used to play and dropping out of the rest.

Thanks for the time and consideration.  Meekel lives on in WoW beta if it is any consolation.


----------



## Serpenteye (Jun 29, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> That sounds alright for the Genesis and anti-aging spells.




Thanks . 



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> A targeted, alignment-less Blasphemy is just very, very odd thematically; it doesn't feel at all like a cleric spell to me.




The thing is, Sandorel isn't really much about alignment. He makes friends and enemies across the spectrum, the descisive factor isn't alignment but wether they either share his philosophy about the gods or if they could be useful (or if he falls in love). He only rarely concerns himself with more general matters of morality. Therefore, making an alignment-based spell for his highest and most powerful level would be anti-thematic for Sandorel (who would just as readily fight an Angel as a Devil).

--
Bye, Wrahn.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 29, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> I just wanted to apologize for my abrupt disappearance and officially drop out of the game.




Thanks for coming to tell us, its truly appreciated nd I wish you luck in your other game. 

PA, this game needs a new OOC thread... 

BS
PbP Moderator


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## Paxus Asclepius (Jun 29, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> The thing is, Sandorel isn't really much about alignment. He makes friends and enemies across the spectrum, the descisive factor isn't alignment but wether they either share his philosophy about the gods or if they could be useful (or if he falls in love). He only rarely concerns himself with more general matters of morality. Therefore, making an alignment-based spell for his highest and most powerful level would be anti-thematic for Sandorel (who would just as readily fight an Angel as a Devil).




I know; that's one of the tricky things about being a godless cleric, isn't it?  On the other hand, you've still got to obey the basics, like only channeling one kind of energy and so forth; it just seems to me that the Word spells are fundamentally alignment-based, and so a targeted variant strikes me as wrong.


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## Paxus Asclepius (Jun 29, 2004)

New OOC thread here.


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