# Searing Light



## Dandu (Mar 3, 2011)

As noted in my award nominated presentation World Domination And You: Or How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love The Supervillainy, placing mirrors in orbit can create a devastating effect on a small area of the world. How can we best bring this overly complicated, unnecessarily expensive, needlessly elaborate, and totally awesome means of bringing a country to its knees to fruition in a manner best befitting an egotistical 1970's James Bond-esque evil overlord in the world of Dungeons and Dragons?

Here is my plan.

1. Teleport onto the setting's moon. If the setting does not have a moon, create one using a very large boulder and Walls of Stone.
2. Cast Wall of Iron ten times to create some starting material. 
3. Use Fabricate to create the frame of a giant mirror. (90 meters across sounds about right.)
4. Calculate the curvature necessary to focus sunlight onto specific areas of the world.
5. Using moon sand and the Fabricate spell again, create a giant parabolic of glass piece.
6. Cast Telekinesis and lift glass and fit it into the mirror frame. Note: things weigh less on a moon, so the amount of glass you can lift is much greater than what you would ordinarily lift.
7. Repeat steps 1-6 to form a giant array.
8. Now that you have turned your moon into a "death ray", cast Invisible  Servant a bunch of times, and have them move your mirrors around to fry  whatever insolent country defies your will like ants under a magnifying  glass with concentrated solar rays.
9. ???
10. Profit


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## Alexander123 (Mar 3, 2011)

Creative idea.


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## kitcik (Mar 3, 2011)

Pretty cool idea.

However, the whole thing, but particulalry #6, assumes that physics and magic interact as we think they would.

Based on the recent thread "magic & physics," apparently many people do not agree. Maybe telekinesis would not fare better on the moon... or maybe your "deathray" would grant the target country great profits from tancentric tourism.

If I was the DM, you could just mark down the XP for killing every living thing in a given country (and then I would be done with you as I don't run epic)...


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## Alexander123 (Mar 3, 2011)

I think Dandu meant this as more of a thought experiment than anything else.


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## TanisFrey (Mar 3, 2011)

And we are thinking it right back at him.


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## Greenfield (Mar 3, 2011)

I'd like to see the Craft skill check to make a parabolic mirror with a focal point over 200,000 miles away.

And then, of course, the idea that Unseen Servant spells would have the duration needed for this enterprise, or that they could hear orders in an airless world, or that they (being essentially mindless) could aim the mirrors with the needed precision, and keep them focused as the moon orbits and the world turns.

What's the "to hit" modifier for 221,463 miles?  (Closest the Moon comes to the Earth)  What is it at 251,968 miles (Farthest the moon gets from the Earth).  

That's presuming, of course, that said Servant spells were even allowed to make an attack roll.  (They aren't.)

So, other than the rules of the game, the laws of physics, and the DM's inevitable "Dispel ", it sounds like a great idea.


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## Dandu (Mar 4, 2011)

kitcik said:


> Pretty cool idea.
> 
> However, the whole thing, but particulalry #6, assumes that physics and magic interact as we think they would.



Isn't it stated that you can use a magnifying glass to start a fire in the PHB?



> If I was the DM, you could just mark down the XP for killing every living thing in a given country (and then I would be done with you as I don't run epic)...



Funnily enough, everything I used is available pre-epic.



> I'd like to see the Craft skill check to make a parabolic mirror with a focal point over 200,000 miles away.



If we segment the mirror into many smaller mirrors, we can adjust it at our leisure.

Alternatively, you can assign 23 ranks to Craft: Mirror making, have a 34 Int for a +12 modifier, thow out a Moment of Prescience for +25, and get an army of helpers (Unseen Servants can make the DC 10 to assist other for a +2), and you're looking at a +60 modifier.



> And then, of course, the idea that Unseen Servant spells would have the  duration needed for this enterprise, or that they could hear orders in  an airless world, or that they (being essentially mindless) could aim  the mirrors with the needed precision, and keep them focused as the moon  orbits and the world turns.



1. Unseen Servant has a duration of 1 hour/level. At level 20, you can easily extend that for 50 hours with CL boosts and all.
2. It is never explicitly stated that it needs to hear your orders. It can't actually hear at all. Control may be telepathic. 
3. They can perform simple tasks with a DC of no greater than ten. If you set up some sort of control mechanism and tell the servant to adjust a crank/lever/whatever to keep a reticule aimed at the planet...

In any case, you could just replace the Unseen Servants with Warforged and achieve the same effect.

Well, better since Warforged are sentient.


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## Noctos (Mar 4, 2011)

holy cow were you in my last game?

how i would f with players if they made this _(mainly as a plot device and in a malfunction)_
first: how did you get high enough in the sky to do all this?
second: your character must have a high int and wis for you to even consider i concept i would say 16+ in my world
third:as a dm i would half to allow depending on how you answered the first question.(argue a strong enough point and i accept) 
forth: i would again alter the world to combat you and again you would hate me for it.


but in the true setting of DnD  you would fail in understanding DM'S you would cause an whole NEW level of game play. be care full what you wish for>?


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 4, 2011)

Make it into a "Death Star"

1) Use undead rather than invisible servants, no worries about spell duration.

2) Instead of wall spells, give them silvered shields


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## Dandu (Mar 4, 2011)

> first: how did you get high enough in the sky to do all this?



Teleport spell 

And now for my next trick, I shall make a moon.

1. Start with large boulder that you bring into space.
2. Cast Wall of Stone. Repeatedly.
3. ???
4. Profit.


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## jefgorbach (Mar 4, 2011)

of course very very many curious archmages will appear nearby as SOON as the bizarre points of light appear as the mirror is created/moved into place to investigate this previously unknown event and likely throw a large number of monkey-wrenches into your plan.


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## Alexander123 (Mar 4, 2011)

Dandu said:


> 3.???




Why do you include a step with question marks on it?


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## Patryn of Elvenshae (Mar 4, 2011)

Alexander123 said:


> Why do you include a step with question marks on it?




Step Three: Profit


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 4, 2011)

> Start with large boulder that you bring into space




Start with pocketful of Reduced or Itemized boulders that you brung into space.

OR

Create Wonderous Item: A "dirty" version of Decanter of Endless Water.  The Decanter of Endless Earth will produce dirt, rocks and boulders until you tell it not to.


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## Dandu (Mar 4, 2011)

jefgorbach said:


> of course very very many curious archmages will appear nearby as SOON as the bizarre points of light appear as the mirror is created/moved into place to investigate this previously unknown event and likely throw a large number of monkey-wrenches into your plan.



Every supervillain has his monologue


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## kitcik (Mar 4, 2011)

Alexander123 said:


> Why do you include a step with question marks on it?




That's the:

3. Perform villainous acts necessary to profit (such as coerce, blackmail, intimidate).

step.


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## Greenfield (Mar 5, 2011)

I wasn't sure you could Teleport to a location in mid air or in space.  But let's say you could, and just run with it.  You place your platform at the hight of Lunar orbit, whether there's a moon there or not.  Take your boulder and work from there.  How did you accelerate the whole rig to the speed needed to maintain orbit?  Teleport won't do that, and there isn't a spell in the game that will give you that kind of speed.  That's 3,600 kph, which is 2,160 mph, which is a base move of 19,000.06 feet per round (give or take a little).  And you have no way to really gauge your speed, so the whole rig may just come crashing down in a fiery streak, or spin off into too-wide an orbit and throw all your targeting and glass grinding calculations into the trash.  (Aren't orbital mechanics fun?  )

As far as your mirror making is concerned:  Considering that the precision needed is greater than anything we can make today, I'm not at all sure a +65 Craft check comes close.  Even making "flat" mirrors to use for segmented focusing would have the same issue, since precise flat and precise concave/parabolic face many of the same problems.

So let's pretend you made a mirror array the size of Delaware.  That would let you double the amount of sunlight hitting an area the size of Delaware.  Not exactly a laser death ray.

Now, you get to make a few thousand individual attack rolls, all at once, one per mirror.  This depends on your servants (be they Unseen, Warforged or Undead) each rolling a natural 20 to focus them all on an area the size of Delaware.  This actually plays in your favor though, since it removes any need for them to have any weapon proficiency in mirror array.  Nothing less than a natural 20 will do, and you can't aid them all since they all have to work at once to hit the moving target.  By the time you get one set right and go on to the next, the target has moved away from the first focal point.

But here it gets easier.  The size mods in the game stop at a certain point, so hitting a castle is no harder than hitting a county, or an area the size of Delaware.  And this works in your favor, since you probably want to hit the castle, not the county.

Range mods are a different matter.  For most weapons the maximum range is listed at 5x the range increment, so a Composite Longbow tops out at 550 feet (5 times the 110 foot range increment).  

But let's pretend that that isn't a problem or a limit, and let's give your mirror array a range increment of 100 miles.  Overly generous, I know, but I'm a soft hearted kind of guy.  

So you're shooting at a target, with something like +16 to hit from size, and -40,000 to hit from range (give or take a few thousand.)

Did we mention that the target is on a surface moving past at 1,000 mph due to surface rotation, complicated by the orbital motion of the moon?  But that's okay, because game rules don't take target motion into account.

Now, the next thing to consider is this:  Do you really want to drag physics into a magical role playing game, when you start seeing problems like this?  And I'm just getting started.


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## Noctos (Mar 5, 2011)

greenfield do i really need to take the time to distroy and remove all your ideas of why this wouldn't work or can i say simply

_fantasy game an any wizerd can alter his spells in any way if he only cares to spend some time doing it_


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## JamesonCourage (Mar 5, 2011)

Noctos said:


> _fantasy game an any wizerd can alter his spells in any way if he only cares to spend some time doing it_




Um, this isn't true. At all. You cannot simply alter your spell to have any effect you want. Some things are, simply, too powerful for the spell level.


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## Dandu (Mar 5, 2011)

These are all legitimate points, however I would like to remind you that Einstein had an Int of 20, and a spellcaster in DnD can have an Int of 34 without trickery involved.

There are, however a few points I would like to address.



> I wasn't sure you could Teleport to a location in mid air or in space.  But let's say you could, and just run with it.



Here is the text of the teleport spell.


> This spell instantly transports you to a designated destination, which  may be as distant as 100 miles per caster level. Interplanar travel is  not possible. ...
> You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the  destination. The clearer your mental image, the more likely the  teleportation works. Areas of strong physical or magical energy may make  teleportation more hazardous or even impossible.



I do not mind objections, but I would appreciate if you did not throw up objections to things that clearly work.


> Take your boulder and work from there.  How did you accelerate the  whole rig to the speed needed to maintain orbit?  Teleport won't do  that, and there isn't a spell in the game that will give you that kind  of speed.  That's 3,600 kph, which is 2,160 mph, which is a base move of  19,000.06 feet per round (give or take a little).  And you have no way  to really gauge your speed, so the whole rig may just come crashing down  in a fiery streak, or spin off into too-wide an orbit and throw all  your targeting and glass grinding calculations into the trash.  (Aren't  orbital mechanics fun?  )



I wish there was a way to do this. I really do wish. After reading your post, it really seems like it would take a miracle to achieve geostationary orbit.



> As far as your mirror making is concerned:  Considering that the  precision needed is greater than anything we can make today, I'm not at  all sure a +65 Craft check comes close.  Even making "flat" mirrors to  use for segmented focusing would have the same issue, since precise flat  and precise concave/parabolic face many of the same problems.



Given the many, many ways of boosting skill checks to ridiculous proportions, I don't think this is going to be a problem if we're going about solving issues involved with orbital mirrors from a DnD mechanics points of view.



> So let's pretend you made a mirror array the size of Delaware.  That  would let you double the amount of sunlight hitting an area the size of  Delaware.  Not exactly a laser death ray.



I was thinking about focusing on a city.



> Now, you get to make a few thousand individual attack rolls, all at  once, one per mirror.  This depends on your servants (be they Unseen,  Warforged or Undead) each rolling a natural 20 to focus them all on an  area the size of Delaware.  This actually plays in your favor though,  since it removes any need for them to have any weapon proficiency in  mirror array.  Nothing less than a natural 20 will do, and you can't aid  them all since they all have to work at once to hit the moving target.   By the time you get one set right and go on to the next, the target has  moved away from the first focal point.



Think it would work with a skill check?



> So you're shooting at a target, with something like +16 to hit from  size, and -40,000 to hit from range (give or take a few thousand.)



Hey, I figure if the Russians could do it...



> Did we mention that the target is on a surface moving past at 1,000 mph  due to surface rotation, complicated by the orbital motion of the moon?   But that's okay, because game rules don't take target motion into  account.



So should I put you down as a vote for the "create your own satellite" plan?



> Now, the next thing to consider is this:  Do you really want to drag  physics into a magical role playing game, when you start seeing problems  like this?  And I'm just getting started.



Keep going.


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## Noctos (Mar 5, 2011)

> Um, this isn't true. At all. You cannot simply alter your spell to have any effect you want. Some things are, simply, too powerful for the spell level.




 wrong it only takes one year or research to reduce a spell lvl . you can turn meterswarm to a lvl one spell if you wanted to waste 9 years on it


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## JamesonCourage (Mar 5, 2011)

Noctos said:


> wrong it only takes one year or research to reduce a spell lvl . you can turn meterswarm to a lvl one spell if you wanted to waste 9 years on it




_Please_ show me where this is in a book. I'm sure elven wizards everywhere would love you forever.




Dandu said:


> Keep going.




I'd like to see his points actually refuted before he keeps going, but I'm not exactly opposed to him on going either.


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## Pergentile (Mar 5, 2011)

> I'd like to see his points actually refuted before he keeps going, but I'm not exactly opposed to him on going either.



Agreed. I really don't understand how the things (Other then the Teleport spell quote) you said were proper rebuttals of his points, but his arguments are VERY interesting to read, so please, have him continue.

@ Wish: If you're in a campaign where a DM lets the Wish spell make a moon sized mass move at those speed... I know its supposed to be a powerful spell, but seriously?

@ Skill Check: "Rediculous proportions" would have to be several thousand at least, even for an encouragable DM. Remember, you are working with calculations changing by fractions of seconds... thousands of them, and very VERY complex calculations to include the minimum dozens of variables.

@ Attack Rolls: I don't think you could use skill checks in place of attack roles considering the entire thing is a weapon intended to cause damage. Do you use "Profession: Archer" to make shots with your bow?

@ Russians: The Russians have computers that work at thousands of times the speed of a human mind while doing calculations, and have devices to find out the values of hundreds of variables. Get a Minor Deity to help you out maybe?

Regardless of all these points, I find the idea VERY interesting. Instead of having a moon sized mass with all the mirrors on it, have the mirrors all separately orbiting the planet, at a speed to keep them fixed above a certain place. This would take a lot of variables out of the situation and would make the innumerable calculations a manageable amount.
You would then be able to adjust each mirror separately, and as long as no outside force moved them, you could focus them on a city very realistically. If they ARE all on one mass, then you would just have to adjust them to focus on a point equal to the distance away the planet is, then just move the mass accordingly for a "Moving beam of death". You could keep it trained on a barren landscape while not in use as its "holster".
My god I want to see where this idea ends up...


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## Dandu (Mar 5, 2011)

Pergentile said:


> @ Wish: If you're in a campaign where a DM lets the Wish spell make a moon sized mass move at those speed... I know its supposed to be a powerful spell, but seriously?



Let's be clear here: a "moon sized mass" is not the same things as "a mass of equivalent size as the Earth's moon."

Mars, for instance, has two small asteroids as moons.


> @ Skill Check: "Rediculous proportions" would have to be several thousand at least, even for an encouragable DM. Remember, you are working with calculations changing by fractions of seconds... thousands of them, and very VERY complex calculations to include the minimum dozens of variables.



Ever see Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, aka the movie with whales and nuclear wessels? Spock calculates how to time travel using the sun as a gravitational sling shot using his brain so that the Enterprise crew can get back to the future? Not the Bird of Prey's computer, _his brain_.

I see it working something like that.



> @ Attack Rolls: I don't think you could use skill checks in place of attack roles considering the entire thing is a weapon intended to cause damage. Do you use "Profession: Archer" to make shots with your bow?



Do you use an attack roll to aim an observatory's telescope?



> @ Russians: The Russians have computers that work at thousands of times the speed of a human mind while doing calculations, and have devices to find out the values of hundreds of variables. Get a Minor Deity to help you out maybe?



For the record Pelor has an Int of 32. A wizard with an Int of 34 (18 base+5 level+5 inherent+6 enhancement). +3 to that if he's old.

Admittedly this is less than Boccob's Int of 50 without pulling shenanagans, but you are smater than several gods. Presumiably, minor deities as well.



> My god I want to see where this idea ends up...



In your back yard, if I ever get it off the ground.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 5, 2011)

> Create Wonderous Item: A "dirty" version of Decanter of Endless Water. The Decanter of Endless Earth will produce dirt, rocks and boulders until you tell it not to.




Note to self:  calling this the Matter Horn now.


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## Pergentile (Mar 5, 2011)

Dandu said:


> Let's be clear here: a "moon sized mass" is not the same things as "a mass of equivalent size as the Earth's moon."
> 
> Mars, for instance, has two small asteroids as moons.




Clarification noted, I still stand by my statement. Deimos (The smaller moon) is still 5x6x7 kilometers in size. That is still too much for a Wish or any other similar spell to bring to thousands of kilometers an hour in speed.



Dandu said:


> Ever see Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, aka the movie with whales and nuclear wessels? Spock calculates how to time travel using the sun as a gravitational sling shot using his brain so that the Enterprise crew can get back to the future? Not the Bird of Prey's computer, _his brain_.




(Sarcasm)Yes, because what a fictional character does in a space movie is legitimate grounds to judge what an extremely intelligent person is capable of...(/sarcasm) that is also a single unimaginably difficult calculation I assume, which means, with several hundred thousand Spocks, you are set to go!
Also, I have not seen the movie.



Dandu said:


> Do you use an attack roll to aim an observatory's telescope?



A telescope does not cause damage to what it views, nor is it intended to. Your connection is unrealistically far stretched. To answer the question: No, but it doesn't matter. If the Telescope were the scope for a weapon however, I would say yes, which is closer to the situation being discussed.



Dandu said:


> For the record Pelor has an Int of 32. A wizard with an Int of 34 (18 base+5 level+5 inherent+6 enhancement). +3 to that if he's old.
> 
> Admittedly this is less than Boccob's Int of 50 without pulling shenanagans, but you are smater than several gods. Presumiably, minor deities as well.




Ah sorry, I wasn't clear. Getting a minor deity to help you know all of the variables you would need to would be an option. Since the minor deity is able to be aware of hundreds of times more then what a normal person is, it isn't too much of a stretch to assume they can have a lot more parallel thought then a human (as in, can do hundreds of times the calculations simultaneously). Intelligence does not necessarily encompass abilities and things like this, and so saying someone with higher intelligence then a deity is just as good is... a stretch.



Dandu said:


> In your back yard, if I ever get it off the ground.




Well that didn't seem very friendly... unless you mean you are going to make an important NPC after me, in which case, I am honored. ^^


What about my suggestions to get it to work? Y U ONLY REPLY TO THE NEGATIVE CRITICISM?! I want to help, but if you simply refuse to see the flaws in your plan and acknowledge suggestions to get around them...

Edit: Although theory is one of my strong points, I am not all knowing for D&D. How would you deal with the environment of space/high atmospheric layers long enough to do all of this? Or would this be a "1 hour a day for several years" kind of thing? Even then what spells would you use?


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## Dandu (Mar 5, 2011)

Pergentile said:


> Clarification noted, I still stand by my statement. Deimos (The smaller moon) is still 5x6x7 kilometers in size. That is still too much for a Wish or any other similar spell to bring to thousands of kilometers an hour in speed.



What are the limits of a Wish spell?




> (Sarcasm)Yes, because what a fictional character does in a space movie is legitimate grounds to judge what an extremely intelligent person is capable of...(/sarcasm)



In a fictional roleplaying game.



> that is also a single unimaginably difficult calculation I assume, which means, with several hundred thousand Spocks, you are set to go!



Time travel in a Klingon ship not designed for time travel is likely to be much more than just a single unimaginably difficult calculation.



> Also, I have not seen the movie.



It's on Netflix.


> A telescope does not cause damage to what it views, nor is it intended to. Your connection is unrealistically far stretched. To answer the question: No, but it doesn't matter. If the Telescope were the scope for a weapon however, I would say yes, which is closer to the situation being discussed.



Alright, let's operate under the assumption that you must make an attack roll of some sort to hit.

Do you use Str, Dex, or Int for the attack roll? Does it factor off of BAB?




> Ah sorry, I wasn't clear. Getting a minor deity to help you know all of the variables you would need to would be an option. Since the minor deity is able to be aware of hundreds of times more then what a normal person is, it isn't too much of a stretch to assume they can have a lot more parallel thought then a human (as in, can do hundreds of times the calculations simultaneously). Intelligence does not necessarily encompass abilities and things like this, and so saying someone with higher intelligence then a deity is just as good is... a stretch.



It's not just someone with high intelligence, but someone who also has the ability to warp reality with his high intelligence.




> Well that didn't seem very friendly... unless you mean you are going to make an important NPC after me, in which case, I am honored. ^^



You're welcome.



> What about my suggestions to get it to work? Y U ONLY REPLY TO THE NEGATIVE CRITICISM?! I want to help, but if you simply refuse to see the flaws in your plan and acknowledge suggestions to get around them...



I felt like addressing the problems with my idea first.

Thanks for the helpful suggestions. I did not mean to overlook it.

[quote[Edit: Although theory is one of my strong points, I am not all knowing for D&D. How would you deal with the environment of space/high atmospheric layers long enough to do all of this? Or would this be a "1 hour a day for several years" kind of thing? Even then what spells would you use?[/QUOTE]
Necklace of Adaptation allows you to survive in space.

There's also a lot of spells that would protect you, but I felt the Necklace was the most immediate example of a protective countermeasure.


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## JamesonCourage (Mar 6, 2011)

Dandu said:


> What are the limits of a Wish spell?




What are the safe and reliable capabilities of a Wish spell?



> In a fictional roleplaying game.




And thus anything is possible. However, some things are harder to do than others.



> Time travel in a Klingon ship not designed for time travel is likely to be much more than just a single unimaginably difficult calculation.




Who knows, right? I'm pretty sure that's exactly the argument you'd make. Also, just because the difficulty of one thing (time travel) is astronomically difficult does not mean that something else (aiming the scope) is now within the realms of reliably achieving using the human mind alone.

Now, to be fair, if something like Limited Wish can guarantee you a hit, I imagine a Wish could probably help you aim the device well.



> Alright, let's operate under the assumption that you must make an attack roll of some sort to hit.
> 
> Do you use Str, Dex, or Int for the attack roll? Does it factor off of BAB?




Ranged attack. BAB + Dex.



> It's not just someone with high intelligence, but someone who also has the ability to warp reality with his high intelligence.




You're talking about magic. He can't do it with just his intelligence. Have him warp reality in an anti-magic field.


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## krupintupple (Mar 6, 2011)

1) Select an un-errata'd Iron Heart Surge as one of your daily maneuvres
2) Claim that, due to your backstory, humanity has been negatively affecting you since you were born.
3) Activate surge, negate humanity, gain small bonus to next attack roll.
4) Profit!


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## Dandu (Mar 6, 2011)

JamesonCourage said:


> What are the safe and reliable capabilities of a Wish spell?



Well, replicating 8th level sorcerer/wizard spells or effects in line with those spells is a valid and safe use for Wish, correct?

If memory serves, there is a 7th level spell called "Reverse Gravity" that basically turns _g_ from, say, 9.81 m/s^2 to -9.81 m/s^2, so messing around with gravity is certainly within the limits of the Wish spell.



> And thus anything is possible. However, some things are harder to do than others.



Yes, but the point of bringing Spock into this was to show, through use of analogy in fiction, what people can accept highly intelligent characters as capable of doing, much like people who talk about what Ajax was capable of doing when discussing high level fighters.



> You're talking about magic. He can't do it with just his intelligence. Have him warp reality in an anti-magic field.



Yeah, about that...


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## JamesonCourage (Mar 6, 2011)

Dandu said:


> Well, replicating 8th level sorcerer/wizard spells or effects in line with those spells is a valid and safe use for Wish, correct?




Yep.



> If memory serves, there is a 7th level spell called "Reverse Gravity" that basically turns _g_ from, say, 9.81 m/s^2 to -9.81 m/s^2, so messing around with gravity is certainly within the limits of the Wish spell.




Messing around with gravity through the Reverse Gravity spell is one thing. Having a moon-sized mass pick up enough speed to obtain orbit is not the equivalent.



> Yes, but the point of bringing Spock into this was to show, through use of analogy in fiction, what people can accept highly intelligent characters as capable of doing, much like people who talk about what Ajax was capable of doing when discussing high level fighters.




Except that intelligent creatures cannot do what Spock did, no matter their Intelligence score. Intelligent creatures are capable of doing many things, yes. Time travel -based on merely having a high stat- is not one of them.

As a side note, you're also comparing scifi to fantasy, and mixes the two genres always bugs me (you can imagine my feelings on Warhammer). It's not inherently bad in any way, just my personal taste.



> Yeah, about that...




One spell functioning in an AMF is nowhere near the same as warping reality with purely your mind.

I'd agree with Pergentile, in that some of your comparisons seem:



> unrealistically far stretched.


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## Alexander123 (Mar 6, 2011)

Given that magic is equivalent to science in D&D...

...seeing as how magic is more advanced the medical science is... (restoring sight, removing disease, heal, raising the dead) 

...if we were going to figure out all of the implications of magic, one of them would be the capacity of reproducing the capacities of science

...which will be capable in the future (perhaps one hundred years from now) to reproduce what Dandu has produced here.


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## Dandu (Mar 6, 2011)

JamesonCourage said:


> Messing around with gravity through the Reverse Gravity spell is one thing. Having a moon-sized mass pick up enough speed to obtain orbit is not the equivalent.



How massive is the moon we're talking about? As noted previously, moons can vary in size and weight.

Also, the thought occurs to me; it might be possible if we're using Danny's Shrink Item Boulder idea to set a pebble in the right position first, then unshrink it.

Assuming, of course, the laws of momentum don't get upset with us.



> Except that intelligent creatures cannot do what Spock did, no matter their Intelligence score. Intelligent creatures are capable of doing many things, yes. Time travel -based on merely having a high stat- is not one of them.



Are we talking about in real life, or in DnD?



> As a side note, you're also comparing scifi to fantasy, and mixes the two genres always bugs me (you can imagine my feelings on Warhammer). It's not inherently bad in any way, just my personal taste.



Perhaps I've been playing too much KOTOR.



> One spell functioning in an AMF is nowhere near the same as warping reality with purely your mind.



How so?


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## Noctos (Mar 6, 2011)

Dandu wins it's a fantasy world any thing is posible even me spelling words right somethimes


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## JamesonCourage (Mar 6, 2011)

Alexander123 said:


> Given that magic is equivalent to science in D&D...




I don't agree with this.



> ...seeing as how magic is more advanced the medical science is... (restoring sight, removing disease, heal, raising the dead)




I don't see how this proves anything.



> ...if we were going to figure out all of the implications of magic, one of them would be the capacity of reproducing the capacities of science




Magic usually bypassing the laws of science (lifting objects with no support, creating fire from nothing, etc.). Yes, it can replicate scientific effects, but that in no way makes it replace science.



> ...which will be capable in the future (perhaps one hundred years from now) to reproduce what Dandu has produced here.




Again, you've proven nothing from a game mechanics standpoint. You've implied that since science can do something at maybe some point in our realistic future, magic might be able to replicate it in a game.

Sure, that's true. Now show me how.



Dandu said:


> How massive is the moon we're talking about? As noted previously, moons can vary in size and weight.




If we're taking speed into account for the moon, then I'd say any size. Otherwise you'd have people crashing moons (no matter the size) into the game world, or shooting inkpens at such high speeds through opponents.



> Also, the thought occurs to me; it might be possible if we're using Danny's Shrink Item Boulder idea to set a pebble in the right position first, then unshrink it.




I'm sure there are ways to go about it, especially at an epic level. It probably requires some sort of combination of effects, possibly including Shrink Item, using Wish to aim the scope correctly, etc.



> Are we talking about in real life, or in DnD?




In D&D. I'd equate psionics as affecting warping reality rather than magic using solely the mind. As I understand it, using your mind to manipulate magic to manipulate reality is about as straightforward as using your mind to manipulate your body to manipulate reality. However, as far as I can tell, psionics skips the middleman, just letting you use your mind to manipulate reality.

At least, it seems that way to me. 



> Perhaps I've been playing too much KOTOR.




I've never played it, but as a Star Wars fan, I can be jealous.



> How so?




Because in that scenario, the mind should be able to manipulate reality just as well without magic as with it (and yes, as far as I know, psionics are stopped in an AMF as well). Intelligence, as described from the SRD:



> Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons. This ability is important for wizards because it affects how many spells they can cast, how hard their spells are to resist, and how powerful their spells can be. It’s also important for any character who wants to have a wide assortment of skills.




Now, if you can somehow use your character's reasoning to affect reality in such a way without magical aid, then you've accomplished what I've mentioned. However, it is not the same as magical usage, which is a 3rd party manipulator employed by the mind to get the job done (much like using your mind to tell your legs to walk you the hell out of the AMF).



Noctos said:


> Dandu wins it's a fantasy world any thing is posible even me spelling words right somethimes




Personally, I see the reasoning "it's a fantasy world" to be a copout. To me, you should have solid reasoning why it should work, while balancing three things: fantasy, realism, and balance. Those should all be accounted for.

For the moon in question:
1) In terms of fantasy, it makes a small amount of sense (more in a scifi setting). I can definitely see it.
2) In terms of realism, I don't feel it works great, but I feel the fantasy portion overshadows realism enough to allow it.
3) In terms of balance, I feel there's a lot of stretching going on here. Show me the right combination of effects, and I'll buy it.


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## Alexander123 (Mar 6, 2011)

JamesonCourage said:


> Again, you've proven nothing from a game mechanics standpoint. You've implied that since science can do something at maybe some point in our realistic future, magic might be able to replicate it in a game.
> 
> Sure, that's true. Now show me how.




I have no interest in showing you how for the following reasons:

1. It is a thought experiment, don't take it so seriously.
2. This would never enter into an actual D&D game so don't take it so seriously.
3. Nothing, but still, don't take it so seriously!


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## Dandu (Mar 6, 2011)

JamesonCourage said:


> If we're taking speed into account for the moon, then I'd say any size. Otherwise you'd have people crashing moons (no matter the size) into the game world, or shooting inkpens at such high speeds through opponents.



Now that you've brought it up, it should be possible to de-orbit a moon in DnD. The first thing that comes to mind is to use some sort of mass driver to hurl a really massive piece of rock off in the opposite direction of the desired movement. Perhaps a Hulking Hurler build, then.



> In D&D. I'd equate psionics as affecting warping reality rather than magic using solely the mind. As I understand it, using your mind to manipulate magic to manipulate reality is about as straightforward as using your mind to manipulate your body to manipulate reality. However, as far as I can tell, psionics skips the middleman, just letting you use your mind to manipulate reality.



I see what you're getting at, but mechanically psionics and arcane magic are identical. If you want to argue this from a mechancial point of view, there's no distinction between psionics and magic as to how they warp reality outside of the fluff.




> Now, if you can somehow use your character's reasoning to affect reality in such a way without magical aid, then you've accomplished what I've mentioned. However, it is not the same as magical usage, which is a 3rd party manipulator employed by the mind to get the job done (much like using your mind to tell your legs to walk you the hell out of the AMF).



So... truenaming?


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## Fallenibilis (Mar 6, 2011)

Now wish may not be able to get the moon to right speed, ( i personally believe it could but...) but certainly Miracle can (with the help of a deity what can't you do). Also i'm sure if said wizard spent the appropriate amount of time and money he could whip up a 10th level spell to achieve his goal of Moon Rotation.

Fallenibilis


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## Rakusia (Mar 6, 2011)

mirrors alone wouldnt be enough to burn stuff down

real world analogy at admittedly smaller scale   Annotated Mythbusters: Episode 46: Archimedes Death Ray Revisited

now if it were to work you would need a secondary focusing lens. think death star it wasnt one beam but 4-6 that went to a focal point and then fired as one focused energy source


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 6, 2011)

How about using the aforementioned Decanter to create a lens of ice?


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## Rakusia (Mar 6, 2011)

[MENTION=13404]Wish[/MENTION] if your doing all this to make a profit couldnt you just wish for vast sums of money?


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## Pergentile (Mar 6, 2011)

Alexander123 said:


> I have no interest in showing you how for the following reasons:
> 
> 1. It is a thought experiment, don't take it so seriously.
> 2. This would never enter into an actual D&D game so don't take it so seriously.
> 3. Nothing, but still, don't take it so seriously!




Whoa whoa WHOA! The INSTANT you start to say "Don't take x seriously" in a thread where intelligent individuals are obviously seriously discussing something, is the instant where you should STOP POSTING.

Edit: @ Rakusia: This is being done, not only as plot, but for a power so unquestionable and unfailing, that even gods look at you with worry at what you will become... oh , would building this thing make enemies of gods?

@ Deathstar: This is a very valid point. Now the project has gone from making reflectors in close orbit to doing such as well as making a focus lens closer to earth. At this point, it would all have to be connected together, but this point actually makes things a lot easier, as you would only need to focus each reflector onto the attached lens (no changing calculations). At that point, the only problem would be keeping it in orbit while being close enough to the planet not to have your "death beam" turned into a "slightly annoying heat beam" by solar winds/radiation/etc.

I think now that we are approaching the fourth page, that the OP needs to be edited to include what we have discussed.

First, the moon sized mass is not necessary, only the mirrors, focus lens, and connecting material (a latticework of titanium bars would do nicely).
Second, since the lens would focus all the gathered light energy into a straight beam, all you would need to do is move the construct above where you wanted to hit, then angle the entire thing as needed.
Third, we will assume, through shrinking and growing, that getting to the necessary speed will be plausible through the use of a single high level spell designed for the purpose of accelerating a small mass to ridiculous speeds.
Fourth, since the whole think can be made in outer orbit, pointing away from the earth, that no arch-mage will spot it and have his curiosity ruin our day.

The one thing that needs to be considered is moving the thing while in orbit. Simple nudges of gravity would do the job for rotation, but to get it in the right spot to hit where you want, I think a necessary skill check would have to be made along with the spell-casting. The spell casting is just the "hands molding the clay". There is still room for human error/unpredictable variables. There needs to be a critical fail chance.

I think the plan seems very sound. The original idea was a good base, but I think that this is the realistic conclusion. Also, a custom high powered spell for altering levels of light could add power to the thing by increasing the light at the focus point tenfold, theoretically meaning that the device would only have to be one tenth the size. I think keeping it from getting too big is a goal that should be considered.

With all these things considered, now we just have to choose the spells we need, and mention what ones would have to be made more powerful and mention in what order they would have to be done. Again, that is something that should go on the first page, before this thread gets big enough that people only read the first post before commenting.


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## Dandu (Mar 6, 2011)

Rakusia said:


> @Wish if your doing all this to make a profit couldnt you just wish for vast sums of money?



Practicality has no place in a discussion of supervillainy.


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## JamesonCourage (Mar 6, 2011)

Alexander123 said:


> I have no interest in showing you how for the following reasons:
> 
> 1. It is a thought experiment, don't take it so seriously.
> 2. This would never enter into an actual D&D game so don't take it so seriously.
> 3. Nothing, but still, don't take it so seriously!




1) Thought experiments are meant to flex mental ability. They're good mental exercise. By handwaving things, I'd argue you're effectively cheating.
2) Different people play with different things. While it wouldn't happen in my group, I can see this happening in someone's epic level story. And while it's not my cup of tea, play what you like and all that 
3) Yeah, I don't like handwaving, otherwise, what's really the point of the discussion? The original post might just be a concept, _but the discussion is about how it would work._ That requires critical thinking at times, and handwaving actively works against that, convenient though it may well be at times.




Dandu said:


> Now that you've brought it up, it should be possible to de-orbit a moon in DnD. The first thing that comes to mind is to use some sort of mass driver to hurl a really massive piece of rock off in the opposite direction of the desired movement. Perhaps a Hulking Hurler build, then.




I think that'd be easier, honestly. And probably very, very deadly.



> I see what you're getting at, but mechanically psionics and arcane magic are identical. If you want to argue this from a mechancial point of view, there's no distinction between psionics and magic as to how they warp reality outside of the fluff.




True, which is why I admitted almost immediately afterward that I know that psionics gets suppressed in an AMF.



> So... truenaming?


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## kitcik (Mar 6, 2011)

Once again, the Black Mage waves his mighty wand of pot stirring.


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## Alexander123 (Mar 6, 2011)

Pergentile said:


> Whoa whoa WHOA! The INSTANT you start to say "Don't take x seriously" in a thread where intelligent individuals are obviously seriously discussing something, is the instant where you should STOP POSTING.




Don't tell me when to stop posting.

Yes, this is a very serious discussion, what could be more serious than a giant laser on the moon in a D&D game? (sarcasm)


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## Rakusia (Mar 6, 2011)

this thread is more serious than a clowns heartattack


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## Pergentile (Mar 6, 2011)

Alexander123 said:


> Don't tell me when to stop posting.
> 
> Yes, this is a very serious discussion, what could be more serious than a giant laser on the moon in a D&D game? (sarcasm)




I didn't tell you to stop. I told you, "if you do x, you SHOULD stop". No need to get defensive just because I made a simple statement of fact. Considering the level of debate everyone is putting into this thread (except you of course), to say its not serious is to insult it, and everyone discussing it. A discussion is as serious as the people discussing it. The topic itself is irrelevant. Not to mention, I personally think the mechanical and theoretical possibility of a satellite based weapon is serious in the real world, so why not in a complex game that we all like enough to post on forums like these? Again, I think you should stop posting, before you make yourself look like even more of an ***.

Also: I justify this off topic response by saying yours is also off topic, and was first.


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## kitcik (Mar 6, 2011)

Pergentile said:


> I didn't tell you to stop. I told you, "if you do x, you SHOULD stop". No need to get defensive just because I made a simple statement of fact. Considering the level of debate everyone is putting into this thread (except you of course), to say its not serious is to insult it, and everyone discussing it. A discussion is as serious as the people discussing it. The topic itself is irrelevant. Not to mention, I personally think the mechanical and theoretical possibility of a satellite based weapon is serious in the real world, so why not in a complex game that we all like enough to post on forums like these? Again, I think you should stop posting, before you make yourself look like even more of an ***.
> 
> Also: I justify this off topic response by saying yours is also off topic, and was first.




TROLL

Can you regenerate from laser damage?


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## Rakusia (Mar 6, 2011)

idk depends. also you would need somekind of shielding system in place to protect the structure from asteroids. 

i want a frickin "laser" on the frickin moon.


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## Alexander123 (Mar 6, 2011)

Pergentile said:


> Considering the level of debate everyone is putting into this thread (except you of course), to say its not serious is to insult it, and everyone discussing it. A discussion is as serious as the people discussing it. The topic itself is irrelevant. Not to mention, I personally think the mechanical and theoretical possibility of a satellite based weapon is serious in the real world, so why not in a complex game that we all like enough to post on forums like these? Again, I think you should stop posting, before you make yourself look like even more of an ***.




Yes, no doubt to say that people should relax and not to take something seriously is very insulting.

A topic is not as serious as the people discussing it.

You cannot seriously discuss the fact that in the Soviet Union a law was passed which made the punishment for attempted suicide death nor can you seriously discuss the existence of interstate highways in hawaii.

The topic is not irrelevant. 

D&D is not a sci-fi game, it is a fantasy game. It is intentionally designed to be a fantasy and not a sci-fi game. Which perhaps might explain why some people are resistant to guns in their game. (although this doesn't mean that I disapprove of Dandu's idea since magic is equivalent to science in D&D in my view, people just want to maintain the middle-age feel of D&D)

I think Dandu's idea is a very creative way of figuring out the implications of magic and I am not particularly interested in disguising my desire to maintain the middle-age feel (somewhat, my own preference is a steampunk feel, and not a middle-age feel in fact.) by criticizing the idea as not doable.


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## Pergentile (Mar 6, 2011)

The defense against asteroids is a good point. Perhaps the lazer could be made to be in a bubble of another realm, so you could see it, as it would effect light/energy/etc, but would have no physical mass so wouldn't be threatened by such things?

@ Trolololol: Since "lazer" is just a cool word for high energy ray, I would consider it to be fire for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and killing trolls at the least, and a Disintegrate with an area of 500 square meters (5 kilometers) at most.

Also, perhaps the whole thing could be rigged to be controlled from somewhere on-planet. Anyone ever see the Helios One from Fallout New Vegas?

Edeit: @ Alex: Relaxing is not an antonym of serious... learn English. The subjects you used as examples could very well be discussed seriously, as discussion could simply be the stupidity of, or of the lack of such things. That you can't do so is a sign of your own inability to add anything productive to a serious conversation.

That being said, I have to say that your latest response actually is getting there as far as being valuable goes, so I withdraw my advice for you to stop posting.


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## Alexander123 (Mar 6, 2011)

[MENTION=85158]Dandu[/MENTION], check out the Eldritch Machines in the ECS.

They bear some resemblence to your idea.


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## Alexander123 (Mar 6, 2011)

Pergentile said:


> Edeit: @ Alex: Relaxing is not an antonym of serious... learn English.




It's synonym first of all, and for one who is telling me to learn English, you don't seem to be that knowledgeable yourself.


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## Dandu (Mar 6, 2011)

Let's agree that no one's English is perfect and move on.


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## Plane Sailing (Mar 6, 2011)

Pergentile said:


> I didn't tell you to stop. I told you, "if you do x, you SHOULD stop". No need to get defensive just because I made a simple statement of fact. Considering the level of debate everyone is putting into this thread (except you of course), to say its not serious is to insult it, and everyone discussing it. A discussion is as serious as the people discussing it. The topic itself is irrelevant. Not to mention, I personally think the mechanical and theoretical possibility of a satellite based weapon is serious in the real world, so why not in a complex game that we all like enough to post on forums like these? Again, I think you should stop posting, before you make yourself look like even more of an ***.
> 
> Also: I justify this off topic response by saying yours is also off topic, and was first.






Pergentile said:


> The defense against asteroids is a good point. Perhaps the lazer could be made to be in a bubble of another realm, so you could see it, as it would effect light/energy/etc, but would have no physical mass so wouldn't be threatened by such things?
> 
> @ Trolololol: Since "lazer" is just a cool word for high energy ray, I would consider it to be fire for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and killing trolls at the least, and a Disintegrate with an area of 500 square meters (5 kilometers) at most.
> 
> ...




Quite enough of that kind of behaviour, thank you very much. You've recently joined, which is good, but you signed up to the civility section of our terms and conditions, and we expect people to keep them. 

Thanks


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## Alexander123 (Mar 6, 2011)

What did you think of the Eldritch Machine Dandu?


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## Dandu (Mar 7, 2011)

Don't have the book.


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## Alexander123 (Mar 7, 2011)

That seems odd that you don't have the Eberron Campaign Setting.


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## JamesonCourage (Mar 7, 2011)

Alexander123 said:


> It's synonym first of all, and for one who is telling me to learn English, you don't seem to be that knowledgeable yourself.




an·to·nym  (nt-nm)
n.
A word having a meaning opposite to that of another word.


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## Alexander123 (Mar 7, 2011)

Ah, I misread.

I have a tendency to associate non-seriousness with relaxation.

Perhaps because of a psychologist by the name of Osho who taught people how to relax and also preached non-seriousness. That might have been the reason.

Now since this is Dandu's topic and he wants us to stay on topic let us be polite and return to the original topic of discussion.


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## Alexander123 (Mar 7, 2011)

Dandu,

Why may I ask don't you have the book?

Is it because you don't like the setting?

Eberron if anything would be a place where such ideas as yours would find better reception except perhaps for science fiction.

The reason being that Eberron has a more steampunky feel as opposed to settings which have a more middle-age feel like Dragonlance for instance.

The setting itself also considers magic to be the D&D equivalent of science and this idea of yours seems like something the U.S. government would be developing in the next 100 years or so.

It also has in it's history civilizations which reached great heights of magical progress so it would not be out of place if some epic character perhaps created such a machine.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 7, 2011)

1) Go to moon

2) Find or make crater of proper size and shape.

3) Use Fabricate to convert top layer of minerals to more reflective minerals- micah, obsidian, silver, iron pyrite, nickel etc., in an extremely thin layer- to make your mirror.


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## kitcik (Mar 7, 2011)

1 spin
2 orbital rotation
3 miss

of course, that assumes a distinct lack of magical aiming.


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## Dandu (Mar 7, 2011)

Alexander123 said:


> Dandu,
> 
> Why may I ask don't you have the book?



Have not found a copy in my local bookstore, because that is the only way I ever get DnD books. 
<.<
>.>
Yeah, the only way.


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## Noctos (Mar 7, 2011)

“There is a far more dreadful than a black dragon.” Derminlus says while pointing to the city line. Noartud turns and looks at where the city wall once stood. Her face goes nearly white when she sees over three dozen gigantic skeletons march through the rune streets. They’re monstrous swords cleaving several men with each passing.

A crowd of soldiers stands circled around a small batch of undead when the ground has a slight tremor. When the guards look up to see what it might have been a large bone hands grips the corner of the building while a large skeleton head peers around. Raising it’s sword and slicing across it cleaves eight men in half before the blade carves a large gash in the stone wall. Swinging back out it kills four more. Men throw spears and axes in desperation but they only reflect off. Soldiers jump and dive to avoid the blade deadly touch for most the effort is useless. A soldier twirls a grappling hook and launches it catching the massive collarbone. With no hesitation he wraps the chain around a near by column and braces his foot.  The skeleton beast tries to turn and slice more men in two, the chain tighten and is jerked back. With anger the skeleton turns it’s blade and strikes the columns bottom. Rocks fly out and the soldier falls to his ass as the chain gives ways and snaps free. With a step forward the skeletons blade slices down the soldier barely rolls out of harms way. Turning his head he sees the blade several feet in the ground when it pulls back up. With another strike barring down more grappling hooks catch the skeleton structure two one each shoulder, a couple in the ribs, and two on the sword arm. With men force pulling back they slow the sword just enough for the soldier to roll out of the way. The skeletons sockets flare as it shifts it body dramatically back and forth. Men try to hold there footing only to be ripped from the ground and dangle as the chains flip back and forth. As they skeleton flails around more men toss they’re grappling hooks and try to hold the creature. It’s not until nearly twenty men have hold of fifteen chains is the demon restrained and the soldiers move in with swords and axes smashing the skeleton to dust.

Leranes sword splits two more wraiths as gigantic skeleton steps in to eye view. Men can only scream as it takes it first swipe. Leranes does a side tuck roll as the sword passes over head. Blood of those around her spray the ground coating it thick. Leranes does many flips and rolls to dodge the attacks while others are laid to waste. Her motions leave her a couple feet out of range as she watches the skeleton slaughter all others. Tipping it’s head up it releases eye beams traveling parallel towards her. The beams disrupting the ground as they pass along. She throws a arm over her face as the beam reaches out to her.


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## Rakusia (Mar 7, 2011)

okay. nice flavor text  as for the phased thing it it wasnt physically in this plane how would the mirrors reflect? wouldnt it have to be physically here to have them bouce off? of course you could have it on like plane of light sending the stronger energy through the gate into the array


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 7, 2011)

kitcik said:


> 1 spin
> 2 orbital rotation
> 3 miss
> 
> of course, that assumes a distinct lack of magical aiming.




The moon might not have full orbital rotation- it could be tidally locked.

And I bet if it wasn't, someone with this plan would make it so.  And anyone powerful enough to do _that_ is powerful enough to put the moon over the intended target as well.


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## Dandu (Mar 7, 2011)

Noctos said:


> Text



What are you doing?


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## JamesonCourage (Mar 7, 2011)

Dandu said:


> What are you doing?




I was wondering the same thing. It's apparently in several threads by him, I'm just not sure what he's driving at. I'd like to know, too.


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## Alexander123 (Mar 7, 2011)

Dandu said:


> Have not found a copy in my local bookstore, because that is the only way I ever get DnD books.
> <.<
> >.>
> Yeah, the only way.




This is kind of OT so I'll try to keep it short but have you tried amazon? You can find great deals there and many books are cheaper there than if you were to buy them at the LGS.


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## Greenfield (Mar 7, 2011)

Noctos said:


> greenfield do i really need to take the time to distroy and remove all your ideas of why this wouldn't work or can i say simply
> 
> _fantasy game an any wizerd can alter his spells in any way if he only cares to spend some time doing it_



I guess it depends on how much you care to fantasize now, doesn't it? 

I've seen comments in here about using Spellcraft to change spells on the fly.  I'm not sure if that's a house rule someplace or if it's actually in one of the books.

According to what I know, you need Feats to do that sort of thing, and there isn't always a Feat for whatever change someone might like.

I went to ridiculous extremes to show how foolish it was to try and mix magic and physics.  And yes, I really meant "ridiculous", because the whole thing really is.

You want to make a geosynchronous floating platform?  Use the old Floating Castle trick, where you suspend the entire thing from a Forcecage or Wall of Force made permanent.  (The cage is better, structurally, since it has horizontal faces, and can be made in the laticework fashion so you can hook things on and meld them in/through it.  Wall is cheaper to make Permanent.)

That eliminates half of his issues with physics.

As far as I know, you can't get Aid Another bonuses on crafting via a Fabricate spell, since nobody else can actually work on the item being crafted.  And as a DM I'd cast an Epic level Dispel Bullspit on having Unseen Servants make any kind of Craft skill check, but that's up to the individual DM.  Also, the argument about using Moment of Prescience on a Craft roll?  It's only applicable to opposed skill checks, according to the SRD.  So that +65 to the Craft check to make those mirrors just got a whole lot less.

But let's say all of this is somehow handled.  You're only 200 miles up, which is nothing in terms of orbital distances (Normal Geosynchronous is 22,500 miles up).  You have a mirror array the size of Delaware, and you have an army of loyal critters who can survive without air, and can "hear" your orders somehow, and are allowed to make attack rolls (unlike the Unseen Servants originally described.).  They're all proficient with Heliograph Weaponry, and all your Mirror's are masterworked.

So you place your Eyes of the Eagle over your eyes, and look for your target, Spamalot Castle!  Want to figure the Spot penalties from 200 miles, even with the Eyes?

So yeah, go ahead and tell me how wrong my various calculations are, how they somehow don't apply, or show me the rules that say this will all work.  I'm betting you actually can't.

I have a counter, you see.

You deliver the ultimatum, "Surrender or fry!"

My caster (Only 17th, since I have to be in the inferior position for the threat to work) has to come up with an answer.  He uses his Rod of Maximize (Greater), and his Ring of Evasion, his Necklace of Adaptation, and the Delay Spell feat.  

Cast Time Stop (Maximized), then Greater Teleport to your platform.  Delay Spell on Greater Creation, to create 17 cubic feet of weapon's grade Plutonium, set to appear in 4 rounds (which is after my Time Stop has expired).

17 cubic feet of fissionable material is so much more than a supercritical mass, it would produce a nuclear explosion larger than anything ever seen.  You, your minions, your mirror array, your platform, all converted to a rapidly expanding cloud of radioactive vapor.  That the matter that triggered this is only temporary is of little importance.  It only had to exist for the few milliseconds needed for the chain reaction.

Now, using my Ring of Evasion and Moment of Prescience, I could do without the Time Stop and Delay Spell, and simply appear then nuke you.  95% chance I'd survive (just don't roll a 1), but why take the chance?

And if 17 cubic feet of Plutonium isn't enough, I could use Sudden Widen to multiply that by 8.  (Yeah, I know it doesn't work that way for this spell, but since actual rules got tossed out before the platform got created, ignoring them here seems a fitting way to destroy it.)

Like I said, it all depends on how much you want to fantasize.


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## Dandu (Mar 7, 2011)

> Also, the argument about using Moment of Prescience on a Craft roll?   It's only applicable to opposed skill checks, according to the SRD.  So that +65 to the Craft check to make those mirrors just got a whole lot less.



I would just like to get to this one first, since it is the most egregious flaw in your argument.



> *Moment of Prescience*
> 
> *Divination*
> 
> ...



It explicitly states in the spell description that it works on skill checks. Now, not everyone combs over the spell in detail, but even the brief description in the PHB and SRD states that



> *Moment of Prescience:* You gain insight bonus on single attack roll, *check*, or save.



I don't think it's too much to ask of you to check your facts before posting.



> So you place your Eyes of the Eagle over your eyes, and look for your  target, Spamalot Castle!  Want to figure the Spot penalties from 200  miles, even with the Eyes?



Wish I could. Would take a Miracle.



> So yeah, go ahead and tell me how wrong my various calculations are, how  they somehow don't apply, or show me the rules that say this will all  work.  I'm betting you actually can't.



I think some of the issues arise due to your not understanding how things in DnD work, as evidenced by your misconceptions about Moment of Prescience.

Seriously, looking it up on the SRD takes 65 seconds.



> I have a counter, you see.
> 
> You deliver the ultimatum, "Surrender or fry!"
> 
> ...



Hold on. You spend all this time criticizing a giant orbital mirror... and then summon plutonium (presumably the specific isotope Plutonium-240), a substance that does not exist in DnD, and which your character also has no means of knowing about?


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## Greenfield (Mar 7, 2011)

Actually, if you check the placement of commas, you'll see that Moment of Prescience applies to "opposed ability or skill checks".  All one clause.  Opposed checks, not just any checks.

Read it as written, not just the way you wish it was written.

Regarding the Spot Check:  You'd need to cast a Miracle or Wish for every one of your minions to be able to see their target.  

Regarding the Attack Roll:  Each mirror would have to make a separate attack roll.

Regarding the Plutonium:  It's as valid as the idea of an orbital platform.

Regarding doing it as a geosynchronous platform:  Sidereal motion still applies.  That is, the sun is shifting across the sky, even if the planet isn't shifting beneath you, so your targeting system need to compensate for this constantly.  

Regarding the idea of replicating technology with magic:  Can you use Magic to mass produce Magic items?  Obviously not. Technology can be used to mass produce technology, however, so I'll argue that the two aren't interchangeable.  

In summation, while it's theoretically possible to come up with enough Wishes, Miracles and Limited Wishes to make it work, you'd end up spending so much money/exp that it would have been easier to just wish for your own kingdom.

Regarding time travel calculations and Intelligence:  There are these things called Skills.  Perhaps you've heard of them?  Many are "trained only".  Including some Knowledge skills.  That means that, no matter what Ability modifier you care to apply, you still can't do it unless you actually have the skill.  So you can't just presume, "A 34 Int can do anything".  

Regarding starships, computers and Spock:  If you're going to bring in gear from other settings, why not just bring in the Enterprise, and use the Phaser banks instead of your unworkable mirror array?  I mean, once you start ignoreing the rules, why be a piker about it?  Go all the way.

Here's a thought:  Next time you want to try a thought experiment within a game setting, try giving a thought to the actual rules of that game.  Doing things within the rules is what makes them a challenge.  Ignoring the rules just makes it line noise on the internet.


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## Dandu (Mar 7, 2011)

Greenfield said:


> Actually, if you check the placement of commas, you'll see that Moment of Prescience applies to "opposed ability or skill checks".  All one clause.  Opposed checks, not just any checks.
> 
> Read it as written, not just the way you wish it was written.



My sincerest apologies for misunderstanding the spell. Fortunately there are many ways of boosting skill checks.

Masochoism is a second level arcane spell in the BoVD that gives a +1  boost to attacks, saves, and skill checks for every 10 damage taken.  There are several ways of becoming immune to death from damage, such as via Shapechange into something with regeneration (lethal damage becomes nonlethal) + Favor of the Martyr (immunity to nonlethal), and ways of taking large amounts of damage/infinite damage  (teleport into the sun? Share Pain+ Glory of the Martyr infinite damage  loop?) achieving a very high skill check isn't impossible.

Assuming we play by the rules, of course.



> Regarding the Spot Check:  You'd need to cast a Miracle or Wish for every one of your minions to be able to see their target.



Really depends on what we're using. Single mirror would work better. If it's an array, a scope of some sort would be best for each individual mirror station. That method would entail the use of sentient minions, though.



> Regarding the Plutonium:  It's as valid as the idea of an orbital platform.



That's something of a cop out, isn't it?

Also somewhat less valid, as mirrors, moons, and etc exist in DnD, whereas plutonium never has.



> In summation, while it's theoretically possible to come up with enough Wishes, Miracles and Limited Wishes to make it work, you'd end up spending so much money/exp that it would have been easier to just wish for your own kingdom.



I suppose you'd have told Dr. Evil to focus on building up the investments of Evil Industries instead of hatching an overly complicated and unnecessarily expensive way of holding the world hostage for a relatively small amount of money?



> Regarding time travel calculations and Intelligence:  There are these things called Skills.  Perhaps you've heard of them?  Many are "trained only".  Including some Knowledge skills.  That means that, no matter what Ability modifier you care to apply, you still can't do it unless you actually have the skill.  So you can't just presume, "A 34 Int can do anything".



Int 34... and Knowledge: (any) as class skills.


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## kitcik (Mar 7, 2011)

*I am the DM...*

... and my ruling is that the Orbital Eye of Mass Destruction...


< please send $1.00 to my Paypal account, thedmlikescash[MENTION=41255]dnd[/MENTION]profits.com, to receive the actual ruling >


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## Greenfield (Mar 7, 2011)

Dandu said:


> My sincerest apologies for misunderstanding the spell. Fortunately there are many ways of boosting skill checks.



Hey, it happens.  We're all guilty of that at one time or another.



> Masochoism is a second level arcane spell in the BoVD that gives a +1  boost to attacks, saves, and skill checks for every 10 damage taken.  There are several ways of becoming immune to death from damage, at least  for a while, such as via Beastland Ferocity + Delay Death or  Shapechange into something with regeneration + Favor of the Martyr,  iirc, and ways of taking large amounts of damage/infinite damage  (teleport into the sun? Share Pain+ Glory of the Martyr infinite damage  loop?) achieving a very high skill check isn't impossible.
> 
> Assuming we play by the rules, of course.



Well played.



> Really depends on what we're using. Single mirror would work better. If it's an array, a scope of some sort would be best for each individual mirror station. That method would entail the use of sentient minions, though.



Even given the bonus from a spyglass (funniest 1,000 gp item in the book), it wouldn't make enough of a difference.

And working a single mirror would come back to crafting one with just the right curvature.  You'd also need to have a STR beyond godlike to work it.  Hmm, can you stack Monkey Grip feats?  It is, after all, just a few size categories larger than the character. 



> That's something of a cop out, isn't it?
> 
> Also somewhat less valid, as mirrors, moons, and etc exist in DnD, whereas plutonium never has.



Does the concept of "orbit" exist?  Or is the starry sky actually the inside of the night goddess' cloak?  

The whole idea of the world orbiting a star, instead of having the sun god riding across the sky daily, it actually not part of any of the D&D settings, other than Spelljammer.  

That, by the way, is how you get things up into orbit.  Use a Spelljammer ship.



> You do realize that the stated goal was to do something in an incredibly inefficient way, right?



Must have missed that one.



> Int 34... and Knowledge: (any) as class skills.



Means you can have the skills in class.  Doesn't mean you can use them untrained.  

I liked the note that someone tossed in about applying momentum rules to the idea of expanding a boulder under Shrink Item.  Don't _make_ me get out my hamster cannon! 

I'm sorry if it seems like I'm being a hard nose here.  First, I freely admit that I don't own all the books, nor am I as familiar with many of the spells and feats as many others here.  I am, in fact, a bit of a grognard w/regards to all the various rules and setting expansions.

I used to attend a game club populated, nay, infested with munchkins.  Kids who thought that their beyond-godlike characters were real, being 50+ levels in five or six classes at once.  And that was back in 1st/2nd Ed, where 50 levels really meant something. 

They'd try to join non-munchkin games and I'd have to dissect their many rules violations over and over again.  It got to be a habit.

So I'm sorry if I came across as a bastitch.


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## Dandu (Mar 7, 2011)

> Even given the bonus from a spyglass (funniest 1,000 gp item in the book), it wouldn't make enough of a difference.



That's why you build a better telescope.



> And working a single mirror would come back to crafting one with just  the right curvature.  You'd also need to have a STR beyond godlike to  work it.



About that...



> Does the concept of "orbit" exist?  Or is the starry sky actually the inside of the night goddess' cloak?



Nailed to the Sky indicates that some form of orbit does exist.



> Means you can have the skills in class.  Doesn't mean you can use them untrained.



So assign some skill points (Psychic Reformation would allow this) and call it a day.



> So I'm sorry if I came across as a bastitch.



I'm over it.


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## Greenfield (Mar 7, 2011)

Better telescope, eh?  But where shall we build it...

<don's top hat with steam-punk goggles>
I know!  At the center of the earth, the heat will easily provide a furnace of sufficient power, and if all the mass is around us, then all of it should be pulling outwards at equal force, so we'll be in a null-gravity zone.  You can make wonderful things in such a place, completely free of micro-stress fractures that come from gravitational forces.

But to get there we'll first need a boring machine!  To the workshop!
<removes hat>

Okay, that machine is boring enough.  Let's not add yet another fantasy genre to the mix, eh? 

Consider this as a thought experiment.

There are, in the D&D multiverse, an infinite number of planes, including an equally infinite number of "prime material" planes.

Understanding that "infinite" doesn't simply mean "a really large number", we can realize/speculate that someplace out there, absolutely anything is true.  Someplace out there exist worlds in which every lie we've ever told, every dream we've ever dreamed, every story we've ever heard, are all true.  Maybe even all true at the same time!

So the goal shouldn't be to conquer your neighbor or rule your world, since someplace out there you've already succeeded.  And, in fact, someplace out there, you've not only succeeded, but the "you" of that world is conveniently missing.

So your goal shouldn't be to change the world, but rather to change worlds, to find the one that exactly conforms to your dreams and ambitions, a world where you get the girl and she doesn't press charges, where you not only get to rule the world, but have an admin assistant capable of taking care of all the unpleasant details, leaving you with nothing but the fun parts.

So, what's the DC for the Knowledge Planes skill check?  How many bumps can we add, and how do we add them?


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## Pergentile (Mar 8, 2011)

"a world where you get the girl and she doesn't press charges"
lol

First post seriously needs to be edited. Regardless of all the back and forth points, I think everyone discussing this agrees that, although this might be too "sciency" for some campaigns, it is indeed possible. The number of calculations/variables have ways of being dealt with/restricted. More than just the caster himself to both work on this thing and "fire" it were logically shown to be unessesary. This is indeed a possible project for a single high level caster, not even required to be of epic level. Someone with a good spell list in their head needs to put the spells to this thing.
1a. Teleport to space a very specific distance away from the planet.
1b. Get to the right speed to stay in orbit above a specific point.
2. Construct curved mirror, facing away from the planet (so it isn't seen). Construct a focus lens.
3. Using a latticework of some acceptable material (force?), connect a focusing lens to the mirror to merge all of the light into a single deadly ray.
4. Move the construct to the right place and turn it to shwoop da whoop the desired target.

It is reasonable that aiming the device would be like aiming any ranged weapon, with a critical fail (weapon breaking from accidentally moving it incorrectly enough that it plummets to earth and takes damage entering the atmosphere) and a roll of 20 meaning success, while every other roll would have it miss by certain degrees (a matter of 1 kilometer per miss of 20 (15=5km offtarget, 11=9, etc.)?).


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## JamesonCourage (Mar 8, 2011)

Dandu said:


> I would just like to get to this one first, since it is the most egregious flaw in your argument.
> 
> It explicitly states in the spell description that it works on skill checks. Now, not everyone combs over the spell in detail, but even the brief description in the PHB and SRD states that
> 
> ...






Dandu said:


> My sincerest apologies for misunderstanding the spell.




I hope that discounting the arguments of people who get something wrong once is no longer haunting this thread, or we'd have to discount the OP, and I dare say this thread would be over.



> You do realize that the stated goal was to do something in an incredibly inefficient way, right?




Cool. Use Wish over and over. Wish to know about orbit, Wish to create a small asteroid, Wish to Greater Teleport to it, String a dozens and dozens of Wishes to speed it up to the speed you need (in 100 MPH increments). Wish to move the object into position in orbit. A couple Wishes to create the mirror, Wish to aim it before an attack.

Voilà!


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## Rakusia (Mar 8, 2011)

wish for dm to allow this 

oh and dont forget we need a way to stop incoming asteroids from destroying the stuff


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## kitcik (Mar 8, 2011)

Rakusia said:


> oh and dont forget we need a way to stop incoming asteroids from destroying the stuff




Wall of Farce


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 8, 2011)

Protection from Normal Missiles?


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## Greenfield (Mar 8, 2011)

kitcik said:


> Wall of Farce



I prefer the 1st level version, Wall of Horse!  

(...and other creative uses for the Mount spell <giggle>)

Actually, I'm still trying to work out the DC of the Strength Check needed to aim a mirror the size of Delaware.  I think you need to Shape Change to the biggest Dragon you can manage, and then roll a critical success.

Thinking back on some of this, I don't think D&D rules should even allow us to see the moon from Earth, or Earth from the moon.  +16 for size, and minus 1 per 10 feet of distance?  For 231,000 miles?  That's a -116,688,000 on a base DC of zero?  (Large, in plain sight).  

Hmm, I think I got something wrong there, let me check a few things...

Okay, I found my mistake.  According the the SRD, Colossal is the biggest size category, and it's only +8, not +16.

My bad


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## Dandu (Mar 8, 2011)

> Actually, I'm still trying to work out the DC of the Strength Check  needed to aim a mirror the size of Delaware.  I think you need to Shape  Change to the biggest Dragon you can manage, and then roll a critical  success.



Be a Cancer Mage, get arbitrarily high strength from Festering Anger.



> Thinking back on some of this, I don't think D&D rules should even  allow us to see the moon from Earth, or Earth from the moon.  +16 for  size, and minus 1 per 10 feet of distance?  For 231,000 miles?  That's a  -116,688,000 on a base DC of zero?  (Large, in plain sight).



The Earth isn't hiding. Spot checks aren't required.


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## mirrorcoloured (Mar 8, 2011)

Creating velocity:

1. Use Teleportation Circle or two Ring Gates [DMG] (maybe modified to be bigger with a higher cost?) to make a (semi) endless falling loop.
Upon achieving desired velocity (or reaching critical mass) another Teleportation Circle could be cast, or the higher Ring Gate could be rotated (enter and exit are differentiated) to transmit this kinetic energy to the platform.  Repeat/duplicate until desired kinetic energy (speed) is created/achieved.

2. Same setup, but in space (no gravity).  Use Gust of Wind to push an object to the other Ring Gate/Teleport Circle.  In frictionless space, you'll never lose that velocity, so enough casting should eventually get it going fast enough.

3. A permanent Levitate should negate the need for orbital speeds


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## kitcik (Mar 8, 2011)

Why can't my Monk 10 / Fighter 5 / Soulknife 5 make one?

All of the other characters in my party built one after seeing this post. Then they all scryed me and are chasing me around the world with laser shots. If it wasn't for my high speed and reflex save, I would have been burnt to a crisp.

It is very frustrating.

Maybe I took the wrong feats?


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## Greenfield (Mar 8, 2011)

mirrorcoloured said:


> Creating velocity:
> 
> 1. Use Teleportation Circle or two Ring Gates [DMG] (maybe modified to be bigger with a higher cost?) to make a (semi) endless falling loop.
> Upon achieving desired velocity (or reaching critical mass) another Teleportation Circle could be cast, or the higher Ring Gate could be rotated (enter and exit are differentiated) to transmit this kinetic energy to the platform.  Repeat/duplicate until desired kinetic energy (speed) is created/achieved.



Falling objects reach a "terminal velocity", where the speed loss from air resistance matches the speed increase from gravity.  This is usually around 125 mph for something with mass and air resistance of a human body.  Cats top out at about 60 mph.  (Please don't ask how I know this.) Nothing approaches the thousands of miles per hour needed for a stable orbit at Lunar distances.  Lower orbits need higher speeds.



> 2. Same setup, but in space (no gravity).  Use Gust of Wind to push an object to the other Ring Gate/Teleport Circle.  In frictionless space, you'll never lose that velocity, so enough casting should eventually get it going fast enough.



Gust of Wind in airless space?  I suppose it's technically legal.  You'll kick it up to the wind speed generated by the spell.  That's 50 mph.  Not as fast as the falling cat, and not nearly enough for orbital stability.  

And, for the record, there is gravity in space.  You can counter it and get the zero-gravity thing going for you, if you can just find a way to achieve orbital velocity under D&D rules.  Maybe we should work on that angle. 



> 3. A permanent Levitate should negate the need for orbital speeds



And you're high enough level to Levitate a mirror array the size of Delaware?  Well, if you say so...

One solution already proposed is the "Floating Castle" gimmick that hangs the whole thing from a permanent Force Cage.  Absolutely immovable no matter how much physical force is being applied.

Here's a better solution:  Don't try.


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## mirrorcoloured (Mar 8, 2011)

Greenfield said:


> Falling objects reach a "terminal velocity", where the speed loss from air resistance matches the speed increase from gravity.  This is usually around 125 mph for something with mass and air resistance of a human body.  Cats top out at about 60 mph.  (Please don't ask how I know this.) Nothing approaches the thousands of miles per hour needed for a stable orbit at Lunar distances.  Lower orbits need higher speeds.




Sorry, that's what I meant by critical mass.  Very different, I know.  My point was that this creates an object with a large amount of kinetic energy.  The energy could be transferred to the mirror array by either collision (preferably with a wall of force attached to the array as not to cause damage to the array itself) or some sort of net hooked up to pull the array.



Greenfield said:


> Gust of Wind in airless space?  I suppose it's technically legal.  You'll kick it up to the wind speed generated by the spell.  That's 50 mph.  Not as fast as the falling cat, and not nearly enough for orbital stability.




Same argument as above.  Repeat this enough times and you'll build up enough energy/speed.



Greenfield said:


> And, for the record, there is gravity in space.  You can counter it and get the zero-gravity thing going for you, if you can just find a way to achieve orbital velocity under D&D rules.  Maybe we should work on that angle.




Well yes, technically every object in the universe is constantly gravitationally attracted to every other object.  Being in some void area of space though, the numbers dwindle so much that they are negligible, much like Jupiter and I don't really feel the pulling from each other.



Greenfield said:


> And you're high enough level to Levitate a mirror array the size of Delaware?  Well, if you say so...




2000 lbs at level 20, and it's only a 2nd level spell.  It could be cast multiple times on different parts of the station, or a higher level spell could be created that could handle more weight.

I've heard of a homebrew rule where one could apply Heighten Spell to spells without DC's to increase the effects to that of another spell of whatever level it's raised to.



Greenfield said:


> One solution already proposed is the "Floating Castle" gimmick that hangs the whole thing from a permanent Force Cage.  Absolutely immovable no matter how much physical force is being applied.




This exposes one of the major flaws with certain types of magic in a fantasy world.  When an object is made immobile, it becomes immobile in relation to what?
The planet still rotates and moves through space at enormous speeds, meaning that an immobile object would most likely disappear as soon as it came into existence (and cause massive destruction depending on which side of the planet it was cast).
This would imply that the object is not really immobile, but inherits the same velocity as the planet (though that still doesn't account for rotation).  But why that planet specifically?  If it's based on the planet it was cast, then what would happen in void space?


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## kitcik (Mar 8, 2011)

Greenfield said:


> Cats top out at about 60 mph. (Please ask how I know this.)





How do you know this?


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## Greenfield (Mar 9, 2011)

kitcik said:


> How do you know this?



I asked you not to ask me that...

I read an article a few years back about a cat that fell from an upper floor of a tall building.  It waled away with nothing more than some sore muscles and a chipped tooth.  

The article explained how cats handle long falls, spreading out like a skydiver, then bringing their feet down at the last moment to absorb the impact.

It also mentioned that cats reach terminal velocity at about 60 mph, so any fall of over 60 feet or so is equally survivable.  90% survival rate at that height, and better than a 50/50 chance of walking away with little or no injury.


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## Greenfield (Mar 9, 2011)

mirrorcoloured said:


> Sorry, that's what I meant by critical mass.  Very different, I know.  My point was that this creates an object with a large amount of kinetic energy.  The energy could be transferred to the mirror array by either collision (preferably with a wall of force attached to the array as not to cause damage to the array itself) or some sort of net hooked up to pull the array.



The Wall of Force would stop the object cold without transferring any of its energy to the array.  Immovable and all that.

In any case, once the array is moving at whatever "terminal velocity" you manage to achieve, your redirected projectiles won't catch it to accelerate it any farther.

Same issue with the Gust of Wind.  A wind that moves at 50 mph can't push your array any faster than that, no matter how many times you apply it, nor what intermediate object you bring in.  The spell deals with velocities as an absolute value.

It's one of the problems with trying to mix magic and physics.  Magic presumes absolutes, and physics doesn't recognize that there are any.  No "unmoving" point in space, no absolute reference for speed, none of that.

The idea that gravity is negligible in space is just plain wrong.  Currently the only way we get into space is by achieving orbital velocity, so the common perception is that once you're there, you're weightless.  You aren't.  You're in free fall, with gravity pulling you so hard that you have to have thousands of miles per hour of lateral movement to let you "miss" the planet.  (i.e. orbital velocity).  Without that velocity you'll come down hard and fast, and leave a fiery trail across the sky as you burn up on re-entry.  


> 2000 lbs at level 20, and it's only a 2nd level spell.  It could be cast multiple times on different parts of the station, or a higher level spell could be created that could handle more weight.



Oddly, the spell doesn't say you can apply X amount of lift.  It says it levitates an object of up to X pounds.  The spell can't affect aheavier object at all.

Again, magic doesn't always work the way gut-level physics suggests that it should.  It deals in absolutes.  In any case, the idea of stacking a spell effect with itself is already addressed in the rules, and it's a no-no.



> This exposes one of the major flaws with certain types of magic in a fantasy world.  When an object is made immobile, it becomes immobile in relation to what?



In relation to whatever the DM says.  And that's really the only answer there can be, in the end.

Consider the simple spell Lightning Bolt.  Explain how, in a world where physics are somehow secretly there, one can direct electricity by pointing a finger?  The discharge would arc to the nearest grounded object (probably the caster), not blast outwards simply because a bony digit happened to be pointing in that direction.

Physics says explicitly that matter can be neither created nor destroyed.  Reconcile that with Wall of Stone and Disintegrate.

Can't be done, can it?

So, while thought experiments can be fun, trying to selectively decide which game rules and physical laws apply and which ones don't isn't so much a thought experiment as a daydream.


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## mirrorcoloured (Mar 9, 2011)

Greenfield said:


> The Wall of Force would stop the object cold without transferring any of its energy to the array.  Immovable and all that.




I remembered that afterward.  I guess you'd need some sort of self-replenishing Wall of Stone/Iron since it would wear away.  Your other point makes that negligible anyway though, nice call.



Greenfield said:


> The idea that gravity is negligible in space is just plain wrong.  Currently the only way we get into space is by achieving orbital velocity, so the common perception is that once you're there, you're weightless.  You aren't.  You're in free fall, with gravity pulling you so hard that you have to have thousands of miles per hour of lateral movement to let you "miss" the planet.  (i.e. orbital velocity).  Without that velocity you'll come down hard and fast, and leave a fiery trail across the sky as you burn up on re-entry.



It depends on how far away you are.  At an orbital elevation you're still very strongly affected by the giant mass of a planet below you.  Once you're far enough away from any planets the sum of forces acting upon you will be close to zero.



Greenfield said:


> Physics says explicitly that matter can be neither created nor destroyed.  Reconcile that with Wall of Stone and Disintegrate.



Matter can be changed though.  Maybe it affects the molecules at an atomic level to turn them into different elements (drawing from other things nearby)?


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## TanisFrey (Mar 9, 2011)

Greenfield said:


> Falling objects reach a "terminal velocity", where the speed loss from air resistance matches the speed increase from gravity.  This is usually around 125 mph for something with mass and air resistance of a human body.  Cats top out at about 60 mph.  (Please don't ask how I know this.) Nothing approaches the thousands of miles per hour needed for a stable orbit at Lunar distances.  Lower orbits need higher speeds.





Greenfield said:


> I asked you not to ask me that...
> 
> I read an article a few years back about a cat that fell from an upper floor of a tall building.  It waled away with nothing more than some sore muscles and a chipped tooth.
> 
> ...



This it true.  My father is a vet, I use to work at his clinic.

The most dangerous falls for cats are from ~10 to 25 feet.  This is about one or two stories of a typical building.  The reason is that distance is long enough to do serious damage and that cats do not have the time to right themselves in time to land.


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## Pergentile (Mar 9, 2011)

"The Earth isn't hiding. Spot checks aren't required."
LOL! Next goal after deathstar... giving the earth sentience so it can make hide checks... XD


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## Rakusia (Mar 9, 2011)

dont tell the druids it doesnt have it already


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## Greenfield (Mar 9, 2011)

mirrorcoloured said:


> It depends on how far away you are.  At an orbital elevation you're still very strongly affected by the giant mass of a planet below you.  Once you're far enough away from any planets the sum of forces acting upon you will be close to zero.



Which explains why comets never leave the oort cloud, they just stay out there and never come where anyone can see them.  Right?

Sorry, but no.  Without a good point of reference free fall might seem like weightlessness, but it's an illusion.  For any of the distances we're talking about, gravity is still there, doing its thing.  If it wasn't we wouldn't be worrying about maintaining orbital velocities.



> Matter can be changed though.  Maybe it affects the molecules at an atomic level to turn them into different elements (drawing from other things nearby)?



In which case the entire idea of using Wall of Stone to turn a boulder you can teleport with into small moon gets tossed out the window.

Now, let's start over on this project.  How to get an orbital platform...

Start by making a lot oc calculations you have no data for, and conclude that at 22,500 miles up an object in stable orbit will circle the world once every 24 hours.  Next, grab your boulder and teleport 22,500 miles up.  Since you had no motion relative to the planet (we have to use some frame of reference, after all) you'll land with none, meaning that you are now in geosynchronous orbit.  You'll have to start at the equator, of course, but that's a relatively small thing.

Option 2:  Take your boulder and teleport a few thousand miles straight up.  Quickly levitate it so it doesn't fall.  Now uncork the 12 Decanters of Endless Water you just happened to have with you and point them all in one direction.  Set each to "Geyser", which forces 3,500 gallons per minute out that tiny aperature.  These are your orbital thrusters. and they never run out of fuel.

Presuming you can maintain the Levitate long enough, you'll eventually achieve an orbital velocity.  Of course ridiculous calculations will be required to know when you've reached that speed, based on observational data you really can't have, but that's a detail.

Now expand your little rock into a real palace in the sky, build your mirror array out of all the sand that you forgot to bring with you, and rule a world you can never safely return to.

Oh yeah, did we forget that little detail?  Teleporting home will caus a "crash and burn" landing that would make Steve Austin proud.  You'll hit at orbital velocity, probably doing more damage than your mirror array would.

As a note:  The Teleport Circle trick to create a gravity accelerator wouldn't work, even if you did it in space where terminal velocity wasn't an issue.  No matter which way you "face" the circle, you aren't aiming the object.  It's a tansmitter with no receiver, and it's the receiver that would need to be aimed.

On a general note, I'll still argue whether you can Teleport to a location based on distance and direction, rather than actually knowing it.  It's not allowed by the spell description, and getting to "know" one particular location in empty space, with no reference points available, just wouldn't be possible, IMHO.  Of course, that's just me.  Other DM's might be more permissive.  I would like to see you try though.

Player: "Teleport to the Moon!"

DM: "Hmm.  you get 100 miles per level, and the moon is 231,000 miles away?  So when did you reach level 2,310, and why didn't I know about it?" 

There's no challenge to the project if you figure to break the rules.  Doing it within the rules, however, now there's an accomplishment.


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## Dandu (Mar 9, 2011)

> Oh yeah, did we forget that little detail?  Teleporting home will caus a  "crash and burn" landing that would make Steve Austin proud.  You'll  hit at orbital velocity, probably doing more damage than your mirror  array would.



Actually, it is unclear what happens to momentum during a teleport. If we assume that it is conserved and you teleport down to earth with orbital velocity, you could just cast Feather Fall on yourself.



> On a general note, I'll still argue whether you can Teleport to a  location based on distance and direction, rather than actually knowing  it.  It's not allowed by the spell description, and getting to "know"  one particular location in empty space, with no reference points  available, just wouldn't be possible, IMHO.




You can cast Overland Flight and just fly up if this is really an issue.



> Of course, that's just me.  Other DM's might be more permissive.  I would like to see you try though.
> 
> Player: "Teleport to the Moon!"
> 
> DM: "Hmm.  you get 100 miles per level, and the moon is 231,000 miles  away?  So when did you reach level 2,310, and why didn't I know about  it?"



Maybe if he used the Greater Teleport spell.

"This spell functions like teleport,  except that there is *no range limit and there is no chance you arrive  off target.* In addition, you need not have seen the destination, but in  that case you must have at least a reliable description of the place to  which you are teleporting. If you attempt to teleport with insufficient  information (or with misleading information), you disappear and simply  reappear in your original location. Interplanar travel is not possible."


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## Eldritch_Lord (Mar 9, 2011)

Greenfield said:


> On a general note, I'll still argue whether you can Teleport to a location based on distance and direction, rather than actually knowing it.  It's not allowed by the spell description, and getting to "know" one particular location in empty space, with no reference points available, just wouldn't be possible, IMHO.  Of course, that's just me.  Other DM's might be more permissive.  I would like to see you try though.






> Player: "Teleport to the Moon!"
> 
> DM: "Hmm.  you get 100 miles per level, and the moon is 231,000 miles away?  So when did you reach level 2,310, and why didn't I know about it?"




Both of those objections are solved by _greater teleport_.



> This spell functions like teleport, except that there is *no range limit* and there is *no chance you arrive off target*. In addition, you need *not have seen the destination, but in that case you must have at least a reliable description of the place to which you are teleporting*.




I'd say "231,000 miles straight up," "that particular crater on the moon," and similar would be considered reliable descriptions.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Dandu.


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## Alexander123 (Mar 9, 2011)

If any of you have read the Dragonlance series, I think there is a novel where a few of the heroes of the lance go on an adventure on the moon so it is not impossible.


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## Greenfield (Mar 9, 2011)

Dandu said:


> Actually, it is unclear what happens to momentum during a teleport. If we assume that it is conserved and you teleport down to earth with orbital velocity, you could just cast Feather Fall on yourself.http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/featherFall.htm



http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/featherFall.htm
Well, several suggestions made so far have been depending on the idea that velocity is maintained, so let's continue to roll with that.

Feather Fall, as written, will slow your descent.  It doesn't actually address what happens to lateral motion.

(Humorous note:  In 4th Ed it doesn't actually slow you at all, it just lets you land safely.)
 


> Maybe if he used the Greater Teleport spell.
> 
> "This spell functions like teleport,  except that there is *no range limit and there is no chance you arrive  off target.* In addition, you need not have seen the destination, but in  that case you must have at least a reliable description of the place to  which you are teleporting. If you attempt to teleport with insufficient  information (or with misleading information), you disappear and simply  reappear in your original location. Interplanar travel is not possible."



So how would one reliably describe a place that has absolutely no physical features, no reliable landmarks or reference points, absolutely nothing to distinguish it from anyplace else in space?  Considering the literally infinite number of points in space that all look the same to the human eye, how would any description not qualify as "misleading"?

Just asking.  

(Yeah, I know, I'm being a bastitch again.  It's a hard habit to break.)


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## Greenfield (Mar 9, 2011)

Alexander123 said:


> If any of you have read the Dragonlance series, I think there is a novel where a few of the heroes of the lance go on an adventure on the moon so it is not impossible.



Ah.  Thanks.  I'd never really considered the various novelizations to be actual rules sources, but it's something to think about.

Greater Teleport to the moon would work.  You have a reference point, landmarks.  You even have a valid frame of reference so the DM can hand wave differences in orbital velocity.

As a note for the orbital platform folk:  It doesn't take a knowledge of Plutonium to destroy the platform.  All it takes is the ability to achieve orbal altitude, and a Force Cage.

The Force Cage is the legendary "immovable object"  Your Death Star isn't the correspondingly "irresistible force".  Think of the ugliest car crash you've ever seen, and expand it a few thousand times.


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## Dandu (Mar 9, 2011)

Greenfield said:


> Well, several suggestions made so far have been depending on the idea that velocity is maintained, so let's continue to roll with that.
> 
> Feather Fall, as written, will slow your descent.  It doesn't actually address what happens to lateral motion.



Unless there's something in the air, you can fly around the skies like Superman for a while.

There's probably a spell that would hold you in place, but that solution seems to take care of things for now.

Alternate solution: You're actually on the planet. You have been carrying out your work in orbit via an Astral Projection.



> So how would one reliably describe a place that has absolutely no physical features, no reliable landmarks or reference points, absolutely nothing to distinguish it from anyplace else in space?  Considering the literally infinite number of points in space that all look the same to the human eye, how would any description not qualify as "misleading"?
> 
> Just asking.



I was talking about the _moon_. Quoting the part about you talking about a player who wanted to teleport to the moon.


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## Greenfield (Mar 10, 2011)

Dandu said:


> Unless there's something in the air, you can fly around the skies like Superman for a while.



Would you care to try "flying like Superman" at 18,000 mph (geosynchronous orbital velocity) without Superman's invulnerability?  All you do is become a lower altitude meteor show.  You'd be torn to pieces by the wind, even if you had enough Fire Resistance to survive the heat. 



> Alternate solution: You're actually on the planet. You have been carrying out your work in orbit via an Astral Projection.



So you grabbed and teleported a stone foundation via Astral Projection?  Then somehow accelerated it to orbital velocity?  And somehow managed to keep up with it long enough to cast all those Wall of Stone spells to convert it into an orbital platform, all from another plane?  Have you looked at the movement rules for Astral space?  It's driven by Intelligence, and a +14 isn't going to take you to the speeds you need.  

Most of what you've proposed can't be cast across planes, so this one is a non-starter.

Have you considered this idea?  Astral Projection to separate body from spirit, then Plane Shift to bring the spirit back to the Prime Material in a material form.  Relatively cheap life insurance.

As for Overland Flight to orbital heights:  Overland flight has a speed of 40 feet per round.  That's about 4.5 mph, give or take a few decimal places.  You're going several thousand miles, at least.  Let's play with 22,500 (Geosynchronous orbit) instead of 231,000 (Moon at Perigee), just to be nice.

You need to stay flying, and awake, 5,000 hours, which is 208.33 days, or a bit more than eight months.   

Oh wait, double that, since you climb at half speed.  Lends a whole new meaning to the phrase "_fall_ asleep", doesn't it?  

And Overland Flying to the moon?  Multiply 10, to keep things simple.

Consider a Carpet of Flying instead.  Same speed, 800 lb carrying capacity for the largest one, and it never has to rest, even if you do.  It can even respond to commands given when you aren't on it, so long as it's within the sound of your voice.  And we'll ignore the problem about the "sound of your voice" having a zero range in the vacuum of space. 

It's still going to take you years each way to even start creating a master weapon that can be destroyed with a slingshot.



> I was talking about the _moon_. Quoting the part about you talking about a player who wanted to teleport to the moon.



Oh, agreed, you could Greater Teleport to the moon.  I thought I already agreed with that idea.  It was popping into a point in empty space that I objected to.


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## Dandu (Mar 10, 2011)

Greenfield said:


> Would you care to try "flying like Superman" at 18,000 mph (geosynchronous orbital velocity) without Superman's invulnerability?  All you do is become a lower altitude meteor show.  You'd be torn to pieces by the wind, even if you had enough Fire Resistance to survive the heat.



Didn't you acknowledge the plan to use Masachoism and a means of surviving large amounts/infinite damage as being "well played"?



> So you grabbed and teleported a stone foundation via Astral Projection?  Then somehow accelerated it to orbital velocity?  And somehow managed to keep up with it long enough to cast all those Wall of Stone spells to convert it into an orbital platform, all from another plane?  Have you looked at the movement rules for Astral space?  It's driven by Intelligence, and a +14 isn't going to take you to the speeds you need.
> 
> Most of what you've proposed can't be cast across planes, so this one is a non-starter.
> *
> Have you considered this idea?  Astral Projection to separate body from spirit, then Plane Shift to bring the spirit back to the Prime Material in a material form.  Relatively cheap life insurance.*



*Yes, that was exactly what I was implying when I said that the caster was carrying out his work through an astral projection.*


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## Greenfield (Mar 10, 2011)

Does Masochism actually allow you to survive infinite damage?  I'm not that familiar with it, and to be honest, I thought you were joking.

As for Astral Projection then transiting back to Prime Material as a way to get a spare body:  Wouldn't Similacrum do the same thing?  Then use Magic Jar to possess your own double, and away you go at full power.  And you wouldn't go leaving that nasty silver cord around, just waiting to be cut.

And, no matter which body you're in, you still face exactly the same basic problems in achieving orbital height and velocity.  

Additional curiousity:  Fabricate lets you convert 20 cubic feet of sand, caustic soda and silver into mirror.  It doesn't say it lets you bypass this limit to create multiple mirror segments, then join them together.  Each segment would then become new "raw materials" for the next Fabricate spell needed to join them, and you're over your volume limit at the start.  

So the idea of crafting a single huge mirror is out.  It simply can't be done, at least not by Fabricate.  At 1/2 inch thickness you get 960 square feet.  That's a shade over a 30x30 mirror, which while quite respectable (and actually structurally sound in a free fall environment) is well short of being "the size of Delaware".  It isn't even enough to make a good solar power plant, in fact.

BTW:  Do you know why we don't use glass mirrors on orbital solar power panels?  We can make them survive the launch, but we can't make them survive the stress caused by temperature extremes.  Direct sunlight and black shadow, with no atmosphere to help buffer or distribute the heat differential makes them shatter like a dropped Christmas tree ornament.  And the larger they are, the greater the total expansion and contraction, and the more easily they break.  That's why we use polished aluminum reflectors.

If only Aluminum existed in a non-industrial world like D&D.  But it doesn't.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 10, 2011)

> Fabricate lets you convert 20 cubic feet of sand, caustic soda and silver into mirror.




At .0006" thick, you could create a circular mirror about 200' across.  Time to enslave some Gnomish mathematicians!


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## Rakusia (Mar 10, 2011)

id say you wouldnt have to ensave just dont tel them the reasning behind the structure and theyd happily build such an edifice as long as their name would be tied to it.... hmmm convenient scapegoat for adventurers trying to end the threat


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## Alexander123 (Mar 10, 2011)

I question the wisdom and sanity of the creators of such spells as sadism, masochism, consumptive field etc. etc.

You could just persist Sadism and go on a killing spree.

There is no such thing as a world like D&D, there are many settings within D&D, some industrial (Eberron), some non-industrial. (Dragonlance)


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## Dandu (Mar 10, 2011)

Greenfield said:


> Does Masochism actually allow you to survive infinite damage?  I'm not that familiar with it, and to be honest, I thought you were joking.



Masochism gives you a bonus to attack rolls, saves, and skill checks per 10 HP damage taken. The surviving death part comes from spells like Delay Death, which allows you to not die when at the negatives, combined with the Diehard feat, which allows you to function in the negatives. Alternatively, you can Shapechange into something with Regeneration, which converts all lethal damage into nonlethal damage, then become immune to nonlethal damage via spells like Favor of the Martyr. 

Granted, you have to find some way of not dying (or falling unconscious in the other case) when the spell expires, but there are ways around that. Offhand, if you're working through an Astral Projection...



> As for Astral Projection then transiting back to Prime Material as a way to get a spare body:  Wouldn't Similacrum do the same thing?  Then use Magic Jar to possess your own double, and away you go at full power.  And you wouldn't go leaving that nasty silver cord around, just waiting to be cut.



I was just proposing one of many ways of creatively solving the problem.

Also, that cord can only be cut under very rare circumstances. It's not going to snap on its own or easily. RAW, I can't think of anything other than a special Gith sword that would do it.


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## Rakusia (Mar 10, 2011)

if you went into a new body would the cord follow you or would you just be a ghost on the matereal plane


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## Greenfield (Mar 10, 2011)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> At .0006" thick, you could create a circular mirror about 200' across.  Time to enslave some Gnomish mathematicians!



And as long as you don't ever have to aim that mirror, that would be okay.  But a wafer of glass that thin and that big will fracture if you try to move it, even a little   And as impressive as a 200' mirror is, it's still not the single mirror version of Slay Castle though.  You need an array, which means many, many individual attack rolls.

Note:  While it's true that the Earth isn't "hiding", that doesn't mean you don't have to Spot it.  PCs are frequently asked to roll Spot to notice important details, even if they aren't actively hiding.  Try going out on a clear night, when you're away from the city lights and the smog, and spotting a particular star in the Milky Way.  It's large and clearly visible, but easily lost against the sea of stars that make up our galaxy.  It isn't trying to hide, but somehow it succeeds.  And that's in the real world, where hard and fast Spot penalties don't apply.

Looking into the matter further, we might agree that the planet should be seen without a roll, Spotting an individual castle from orbit?  It actually is hiding, a tiny patch of stone nestled amid green fields or mountain peaks, concealed behind cloud cover and atmospheric distortion, and surrounded by deceptively similar patches of stone, also surrounded by green fields or mountain peaks.  And at a penalty of -528 per mile of altitude, even a natural 20 won't help.  Skill checks don't auto-fail on a 1, nor do they auto-succeed on a 20.


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## Rakusia (Mar 10, 2011)

again if you have a lens you could just focus the mirrors to that. only need a single attack roll and have a better chance of seeing your target since it could be used to scrye? your chosen target


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## Pergentile (Mar 10, 2011)

Greenfield said:


> Does Masochism actually allow you to survive infinite damage?  I'm not that familiar with it, and to be honest, I thought you were joking.
> 
> As for Astral Projection then transiting back to Prime Material as a way to get a spare body:  Wouldn't Similacrum do the same thing?  Then use Magic Jar to possess your own double, and away you go at full power.  And you wouldn't go leaving that nasty silver cord around, just waiting to be cut.
> 
> ...




If the edges of the mirror are pristine flat and smooth, fitting them together and holding them so with something like force or immovable rods would get you one massive mirror.

Also, IIRC, I thought Aluminum was a base metal, as in, it's in the periodic table of elements, close to silver and gold and all those others, as in, it is the most abundant metal in the earths crust, as in, it is a simple matter to have it occur in nature, as in, unless your DM explicitly states Aluminum isn't on his planet, assuming it is shouldn't be a problem.


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## Rakusia (Mar 10, 2011)

*Aluminium* (UK 

i /ˌæljʉˈmɪniəm/ _AL-ew-MIN-ee-əm_)[4] or *aluminum* (US 

i /əˈluːmɪnəm/ _ə-LOO-mi-nəm_) is a silvery white member of the boron group of chemical elements. It has the symbol *Al* and its atomic number is 13. It is not soluble in water under normal circumstances. Aluminium is the most abundant metal in the Earth's crust, and the third most abundant element, after oxygen and silicon. It makes up about 8% by weight of the Earth's solid surface. Aluminium is too reactive chemically to occur in nature as a free metal. Instead, it is found combined in over 270 different minerals.[5] The chief source of aluminium is bauxite ore.
Aluminium is remarkable for the metal's low density and for its ability to resist corrosion due to the phenomenon of passivation. Structural components made from aluminium and its alloys are vital to the aerospace industry and are very important in other areas of transportation and building. Its reactive nature makes it useful as a catalyst or additive in chemical mixtures, including ammonium nitrate explosives, to enhance blast power.
Despite its prevalence in the environment, aluminium salts are not known to be used by any form of life. Also in keeping with the element's abundance, it is well tolerated[_citation needed_] by plants in soils (in which it is a major component), and to a lesser extent, by animals as a component of plant materials in the diet (which often contain traces of dust and soil). Soluble aluminium salts have some demonstrated toxicity to animals if delivered in quantity by unnatural routes, such as injection. Controversy still exists about aluminium's possible long-term toxicity to humans from larger ingested amounts.


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## Pergentile (Mar 10, 2011)

So, the Wiki post shows that Aluminum is abundant, and reactive enough that it is only in alloys. Saying that the world of D&D isn't industrial enough to melt and separate metals... or to know of them so as it could be used in magical means...


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## Dandu (Mar 10, 2011)

> Note:  While it's true that the Earth isn't "hiding", that doesn't mean  you don't have to Spot it.  PCs are frequently asked to roll Spot to  notice important details, even if they aren't actively hiding.  Try  going out on a clear night, when you're away from the city lights and  the smog, and spotting a particular star in the Milky Way.  It's large  and clearly visible, but easily lost against the sea of stars that make  up our galaxy.  It isn't trying to hide, but somehow it succeeds.  And  that's in the real world, where hard and fast Spot penalties don't  apply.
> 
> Looking into the matter further, we might agree that the planet should  be seen without a roll, Spotting an individual castle from orbit?  It  actually is hiding, a tiny patch of stone nestled amid green fields or  mountain peaks, concealed behind cloud cover and atmospheric distortion,  and surrounded by deceptively similar patches of stone, also surrounded  by green fields or mountain peaks.  And at a penalty of -528 per mile  of altitude, even a natural 20 won't help.  Skill checks don't auto-fail  on a 1, nor do they auto-succeed on a 20.



Logically, it must be safe to stare at the sun in Dungeons and Dragons. The penalty to spot something at 1 AU must be ginormous.

Of course, that's assuming that size categories max out at Colossal, which is not a great assumption as a planet is clearly larger than, say, a Titan or a very large desert scorpion. 

This I do not consider this challenge to be a valid one.

Allow me to be frank. There is being constructive ("You need to achieve a velocity of X") and there is not. This is not.


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## Greenfield (Mar 10, 2011)

Aluminum is indeed a very abundant metal in the Earth's crust.  Whether it's the same in the D&D world is an interesting question, but actually irrelevant.

You can't smelt aluminum the way you do most other metals.  That is, bauxite (aluminum ore) doesn't give up its oxygen when heated, it remains aluminum oxide.  To get it to give up its oxygen and become a workable metal, you need electricity, and not just a momentary jolt.  You need lots and lots of electrical current over an extended period of time.

There aren't any electrical generating stations in the D&D world, at least not that I'm aware of.  

Regarding segmented mirrors:  Binding mirror segments with force effects or Immovable Rods sounds like a wonderful idea.  How were you planning to aim the thing, if it can't be moved?  

Aside from that, even the half inch panel I described would fracture if wedged in tightly by such means.  The paper thin one suggested wouldn't even survive being moved into position to be bound.

Regarding focusing an array of mirrors onto a single lens: You send a thousand beams of reflected light into a lens, and you get a thousand beams of light coming out.  The lens doesn't convert them into a coherent beam.

Regarding the use of Scry to aim the orbital weapon:  Scry spots people, not places.  Clairvoyance spots places.  In any case, it lets you see them, but it doesn't tell you where they are, or how to aim anything at them.

Regarding sunblindness:  You're absolutely right, by the rules the sun should be pretty much impossible to Spot. 

And yeah, there are things larger than Titans, castles and mountains.  But they're all the same size category: Colossal.  And that means they all have the same size modifiers.  Size modifiers are assigned by category, not exact height or size.  Hey, don't blame me, I didn't write the rules, I just make fun of them.

There's a difference between game rules and the real world.  Game designers can't write perfect rules.  There will always be holes or inconsistencies.  That's one of the reasons it's so hard to mix real physics into a game world, with or without magic.


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## Dandu (Mar 10, 2011)

> And yeah, there are things larger than Titans, castles and mountains.   But they're all the same size category: Colossal.  And that means they  all have the same size modifiers.  Size modifiers are assigned by  category, not exact height or size.  Hey, don't blame me, I didn't write  the rules, I just make fun of them.



I don't believe that the size categories you refer to were ever intended to apply to planets, mountain ranges, and castles.

In any case, the game becomes unplayable at that level of RAW-ness so I consider this line of discussion unproductive.


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## Eldritch_Lord (Mar 10, 2011)

In fact, there's a Colossal+ size category, so Colossal isn't the upper limit.  Though it isn't RAW, given that size categories follow a logical pattern, it wouldn't be unreasonable to rule that mountains, moons, etc. fit into ever-larger Colossal+++, Colossal +++++, etc. categories, with appropriate modifiers for Spot.


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## kitcik (Mar 10, 2011)

Imagine the campaign where they play 1 = auto failure.

Party leader "We cautiously approach Mount Doom, circling it within the treeline."

Wizard "I keep an eye on the ridges, looking for any smoke or movement."

Barbarian "What mountain??"
<Marches straight up, smacks head into mountainside.>


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## Dandu (Mar 10, 2011)

Force Dragons in the SRD can get up to Colossal + iirc. It's in the Epic section.


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## Alexander123 (Mar 10, 2011)

kitcik said:


> Imagine the campaign where they play 1 = auto failure.
> 
> Party leader "We cautiously approach Mount Doom, circling it within the treeline."
> 
> ...




That gave me a good laugh.


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## Greenfield (Mar 10, 2011)

My point regarding Spot, silly though it was, is that the project is to accomplish the orbital platform *within the rules*.  And the RAW are, in fact, sometimes quite silly.

We normally look the other way when we encounter such game inconsistencies, and pretend they aren't there.  We really do "pay no attention to that man behind the curtain".  It's the only way to keep the fantasy alive in the world.  As people try to twist the rules to extremes in order to make something odd or broken work, they have to remember that the DM can twist them just as badly in the opposite direction.

So while there are tricks like Die Hard and Delay Death to let you survive anything and keep functioning, there are equally bizarre twists of the rules that will get in the way.

Attempting to apply "common sense" to a problem, while blatantly ignoring common sense in other areas of the same problem, is a common trick.  And the common counter is to apply, no, to _inflict_ the rules on the people who try it.

So go ahead and argue for "common sense", then try to use Delay Death and Die Hard to survive orbital re-entry.  Your scattered ashes will be alive, at least technically, until the spell runs out.   The spell doesn't prevent the damage, after all, and common sense says the damage will tear you to pieces, even if the rules don't normally allow for it.


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## Dandu (Mar 10, 2011)

I'm still not entirely sure what your point is. Is the point to remind me that I can't out rules lawyer the DM? 

That's never been my contention. All I'm trying to do is make something interesting for possible use in a game. I'm not trying to be a munchkin and ruin someone's campaign, so I would really appreciate it if you'd stop approaching this thread with that attitude.

You've had problems with such people in the past. I suggest you leave them there.

In short, I have but one thing to say to you.


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## kitcik (Mar 10, 2011)

Dandu said:


> All I'm trying to do is make something interesting for possible use in a game.




I thought that was just the gravy.

I thought the main course was an attempt to put something wildly audacious, but just barely plausible, onto the board in order to (i) elicit a cacophony of varied responses, some of which are quite emotional and which get at people's feelings regarding the basic underpinnings of the game, and (ii) create an interesting thread where people work together to solve implausible logistical problems.

If you really wre only trying to make something for possible use in a game, I don't thinnk you've achieved much. No DM in their right mind would allow you to build an orbital laser platform in D&D.

On the other hand, you did a fantastic job in eliciting some really interesting responses and creating a cool thread, and I applaud you for that!!


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## Greenfield (Mar 10, 2011)

Fair enough.

As a DM, you can create/approve any type of world feature you like, and when people ask for an explanation, you (as DM) can simply answer, "You don't know how they built such a thing."

But I'll cut the obstructionist BS.

Spotting the planet wouldn't be a problem.  Spotting a particular building would be.  The only man made structure visible from orbit to the naked eye is the Great Wall of China.  Even with magical aid, it would be a problem to see and identify a specific castle, or even a city.  Some sort of divine guidance could bypass that, of course.  In fact, you could Gate in a Solar to aim it, and he/she could Contact Higher Plane for divine aid.  You'll need an army of Gnome craftsmen to build the aiming mechanism for all the mirrors at once, but that's just backstory.

Hitting that building would also be a problem.  You, as DM, can create any custom aiming ritual the "bad guy" needs, of course, and make it as long and drawn out as you like for dramatic purposes.

Or maybe that's part of the puzzle the PCs have to figure out:  How is the BBG managing to hit, precisely, whatever castle he threatens, first shot every time?  Is there some magical equivalent of a homing device there?  Is it being fired through a Ring Gate, so he need only hit the nearby Ring Gate while the other half is hidden someplace near the castle, aimed at it?  Is he using some kind of divine or fiendish adviser that can be killed, dissuaded or subverted?

Or is the challenge finding a way to his mountain stronghold, hidden someplace within the darkness between the stars?

Lots of good story potential there.  

I have no issue with you, as a DM, doing anything you want with the idea.  

But I thought you were asking as a player, and I replied to you in that context.  Sorry for the misunderstanding


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## kitcik (Mar 10, 2011)

This version of the ring gate idea solves so many problems. I am not an expert on high level spells, but surely you could have some avatar/minion flying around the earth at your command with the end of the ring gate. Then you simply fire the laser into your ring gate, it fires out the other and its "shock and awe" / party time.

This solves all the problems about spin and orbital rotation with respect to aiming. Heck, if you found a moon which did not rotate on its axis, you could build the mirror / lens on the back side (assuming it still got sun) - you could take as long as you want to build it & no one could ever find it!

No, we're onto something...


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## Greenfield (Mar 10, 2011)

Build it in a trans-polar orbit and you'll always have sun.  Build it with the Ring Gate as part of the structure, at the focal point, and all aiming considerations go away.

All problems with precision grinding of the mirrors goes away as well.  

But you definitely want it in orbit, so the Spot problems apply to your enemies.  Hell, build it on Mercury (the planet, not the god) for all it matters.

Then, when crunch time comes, you hit yourself with Dust of Disappearance so you can't be seen, even with See Invisible, Greater Teleport to a spot near the castle, and open up the Ring Gate.  Maybe fly over it for the top-down blast effect if you like, though it really doesn't matter.  Once it's slag, it's slag, and directionality won't really matter.

Oh, and be sure not to do a Wile E. Coyote and have it facing the wrong way.  That would be embarrassing.


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## Greenfield (Mar 11, 2011)

Oh come on, Dandu, now that I've proposed a solution, you're supposed to shoot me down.

There's an obvious flaw in my proposal.  Aren't you even going to try?


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## Dandu (Mar 11, 2011)

You mean the 100 mile range limit?


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## Greenfield (Mar 11, 2011)

Good, good!  Now you're thinking like a skeptical DM should.  

Question:  Can you see through one Ring Gate and out the other?  They transport *objects*, not visible light or attacks spells.

Same for an actual Gate spell, as well as a Teleport Circle, which would otherwise overcome the range limit objection.

You'd have to craft a custom item or spell, which reeks of just using Wishes for everything.


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## Pergentile (Mar 11, 2011)

Greenfield said:


> Aluminum is indeed a very abundant metal in the Earth's crust.  Whether it's the same in the D&D world is an interesting question, but actually irrelevant.
> You can't smelt aluminum the way you do most other metals.  That is, bauxite (aluminum ore) doesn't give up its oxygen when heated, it remains aluminum oxide.  To get it to give up its oxygen and become a workable metal, you need electricity, and not just a momentary jolt.  You need lots and lots of electrical current over an extended period of time.
> There aren't any electrical generating stations in the D&D world, at least not that I'm aware of.




All it would take would be the knowledge of aluminum's existence to prod some wizard with a smithing fetish to devise a spell to get the job done. I personally don't think that is any form of a stretch.



Greenfield said:


> Regarding segmented mirrors:  Binding mirror segments with force effects or Immovable Rods sounds like a wonderful idea.  How were you planning to aim the thing, if it can't be moved?




I was just suggesting a way to bind them together, just because the way I suggested won't work doesn't mean that binding them together wont work. ^^



Greenfield said:


> Regarding focusing an array of mirrors onto a single lens: You send a thousand beams of reflected light into a lens, and you get a thousand beams of light coming out.  The lens doesn't convert them into a coherent beam.




That doesn't change the fact that there is still x amount of light energy all going to the same place, the majority of such being converted into heat energy when coming into contact with the earths surface or anything that absorbs light. Thus, a massive scale disintegrate is born.



Greenfield said:


> Spotting the planet wouldn't be a problem. Spotting a particular building would be. The only man made structure visible from orbit to the naked eye is the Great Wall of China. Even with magical aid, it would be a problem to see and identify a specific castle, or even a city.




Isn't it a pretty huge assumption to say someone must SEE something in order to aim at it. Knowing somethings location, in degrees, fractions of degrees, or something else, in relation to several visible landmarks would make "seeing" your target completely irrelevant to aiming at it, from an orbital perspective. You think astronauts can "see" where they are going when they come in for a landing? It is all just calculations and fore-knowledge as to the location of things.



Greenfield said:


> Question:  Can you see through one Ring Gate and out the other?  They transport *objects*, not visible light or attacks spells.




Energy and Mass are the same thing, simply in different form. To say something like a Ring Gate would not function in a similar manner to a blackhole (effects everything, even gravity and time), is illogical. If it transports anything, it transports everything, unless specifically stated otherwise. In my opinion, saying it transports "objects" and nothing else should not be assumed to mean one can't see through it. I however don't know the spell, so am just making arguments of logic. XD I think the limit of 100 miles does a good job of keeping people from using it to suck away earths atmosphere, or cover earths surface in magma.

@Greefield My god, you're fun to talk to. <3!!


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## JamesonCourage (Mar 11, 2011)

Greenfield said:


> Good, good!  Now you're thinking like a skeptical DM should.
> 
> Question:  Can you see through one Ring Gate and out the other?  They transport *objects*, not visible light or attacks spells.




While I strongly dislike the flavor of ring gates, if you were able to build a cone-shaped focal point at the end of a convex surface with a small enough focal point to put through the ring gate, wouldn't it work?

Ring gate on the moon (wherever) would look something like:

. . /
. ./     () = ring gate
<()     > = the tip of the mirrored cone, sticking through the ring gate.
. .\
. . \    

I see no particular reason why that wouldn't work. You could still make an argument that light wouldn't flow through the ring gate, but as the tip of the object is actually through the ring gate that you possess, it seems like it's much more plausible now. Most people would allow natural fire to pass through a ring gate, after all, and the concept is not that different.

As for the distance limit, there may be a way to string together a series of ring gates, yeah? Sure, it'd be vulnerable now, but you cut put permanent force cages or walls around them for at least some protection.


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## Rakusia (Mar 11, 2011)

it would be a bunch of ring gates if its 100 feet maximum


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## JamesonCourage (Mar 11, 2011)

Rakusia said:


> it would be a bunch of ring gates if its 100 feet maximum




According to the SRD:



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Ring Gates
> These always come in pairs—two iron rings, each about 18 inches in diameter. The rings must be on the same plane of existence and within 100 miles of each other to function.


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## Greenfield (Mar 11, 2011)

Natural fire is actually matter, heated gasses in the process of combustion.

If you can't look into one ring gate and see out the other, then you can't send light through, whether it's a signal light, a the light from a spell, or the concentrated light of a thousand suns.  Routing it through an object in the path won't change that.

There is always another way.  There are enough specialized items, spells and sourcebooks that the rules have become a maze of twisty little passages.  Or was that a maze of little twisty passages?  No, I'm sure it was twisty maze of little passages.  Unless it was...


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## Pergentile (Mar 12, 2011)

Next project after giving the earth sentience so it can make hide checks:
One thousand strings of Ring Gates to bathe the earth in the light of a thousand suns... the mass/gravity of the sun would push itself halfway through the ring gate, leaving half on each side, allowing you to encircle the earth with 1000 half-suns and the light that's caused by them.

Wait, if combustion can pass through, fusion can too right?


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## Dandu (Mar 12, 2011)

Greenfield said:


> Natural fire is actually matter, heated gasses in the process of combustion.
> 
> If you can't look into one ring gate and see out the other, then you can't send light through, whether it's a signal light, a the light from a spell, or the concentrated light of a thousand suns.  Routing it through an object in the path won't change that.



You can't see through a Stargate portal, but Jaffa staff weapons can fire through it just fine.


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## Rakusia (Mar 12, 2011)

yeah but it'd be kinda like   )( ring gates an enter and exit okay


light ---)    (---)    (---)      (---)     (--- earth


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## Greenfield (Mar 13, 2011)

So Jaffa staff weapons are purely visible light?  

Which of course explains why the bolts travel slowly enough for people to dodge them, eh?  Because visible light causes explosions when it hits things?

And all of which is applicable to a completely different set of items that operate on a completely different set of principles in a completely different world in a completely different genre.

Ring Gates are pretty clearly documented:  *OBJECTS* pass from one to the other.  Doesn't say a thing about spells, or about being able to see from one through the other.


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## Dandu (Mar 13, 2011)

[sblock]Actually, as far as Stargate goes, electomagnetic radiation can go through a Stargate. It's how the radios work.

I'm glad you got the joke and we had a laugh at the sci-fi/pop culture reference.[/sblock]


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 13, 2011)

1) Create terrarium on the moon with carefully shaped crystal dome

2) Protect dome with necessary anti-impact spells

3) Populate terrarium with Dire Legendary Blindheims

4) Train them to ask for food by focusing their gaze at a particular spot next to a food dispenser opening on the dome at a particular time- said spot being a lens.


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## Rakusia (Mar 13, 2011)

These always come in pairs—two iron rings, each about 18 inches in diameter. The rings must be on the same plane of existence and within 100 miles of each other to function. Whatever is put through one ring comes out the other, and up to 100 pounds of material can be transferred each day. (Objects only partially pushed through and then retracted do not count.) This useful device allows for instantaneous transport of items or messages, and even attacks. A character can reach through to grab things near the other ring, or even stab a weapon through if so desired. Alternatively, a character could stick his head through to look around. A spellcaster could even cast a spell through a _ring gate. _A Small character can make a DC 13 Escape Artist check to slip through. Creatures of Tiny, Diminutive, or Fine size can pass through easily. Each ring has a “entry side” and an “exit side,” both marked with appropriate symbols


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## Greenfield (Mar 14, 2011)

Pergentile said:


> All it would take would be the knowledge of aluminum's existence to prod some wizard with a smithing fetish to devise a spell to get the job done. I personally don't think that is any form of a stretch.



So, all he needs is knowledge of a metal that doesn't exist, and the metal will exist?

Or does he also need an understanding of a smelting process that doesn't exist, driven by a continuous supply of electricity that doesn't exist, to create the metal that doesn't exist?  

So I guess that means no aluminum in your game world, eh? 


> I was just suggesting a way to bind them together, just because the way I suggested won't work doesn't mean that binding them together wont work. ^^



That's hilarious.


> That doesn't change the fact that there is still x amount of light energy all going to the same place, the majority of such being converted into heat energy when coming into contact with the earths surface or anything that absorbs light. Thus, a massive scale disintegrate is born.



Except that it means that there is still x amount of light energy all going to a lot of different places.  Like I said, the lens won't unify multiple light sources into one.  It's just a crossing point.  The only thing that this rig might do a "massive scale disintegrate" on is the lens itself, since that's the only place all the light is going to hit.


> Isn't it a pretty huge assumption to say someone must SEE something in order to aim at it. Knowing somethings location, in degrees, fractions of degrees, or something else, in relation to several visible landmarks would make "seeing" your target completely irrelevant to aiming at it, from an orbital perspective. You think astronauts can "see" where they are going when they come in for a landing? It is all just calculations and fore-knowledge as to the location of things.



So you check the GPS coordinates?  

So you're arguing for a 50/50 miss chance?  Even Blindfighting won't help if you don't know which square to attack into.  

Astronauts "see" via RADAR, spotter planes, land based observers on the radio, and yes, with their eyes.  

The only one of these that exist in the D&D world is the eyes.  

A general idea of knowing where things are?  Half of the American Civil War was a bloody comedy of errors because of inaccurate maps.  West Point was originally a cartography school (map making) and students had been mapping and remapping the entire region the war was fought on for generations, and with generations of surveys and mapmakers' notes, they still couldn't get any two maps to agree.  One general fought most of the war using a map from the fly leaf of a book, since it seemed more accurate than any of the others.  

And with GPS, orbital photos and aerial surveilance, modern artillery still uses forward spotters.  The much vaunted pinpoint accuracy of the Tomahawk missiles used in Iraq was achieved through the efforts of men on the ground "painting" the target with a laser.  The guidance system on those missiles in fact use a visual recognition system within the missiles themselves.


> Energy and Mass are the same thing, simply in different form. To say something like a Ring Gate would not function in a similar manner to a blackhole (effects everything, even gravity and time), is illogical. If it transports anything, it transports everything, unless specifically stated otherwise. In my opinion, saying it transports "objects" and nothing else should not be assumed to mean one can't see through it. I however don't know the spell, so am just making arguments of logic. XD I think the limit of 100 miles does a good job of keeping people from using it to suck away earths atmosphere, or cover earths surface in magma.



First, it's not a spell, it's a magic item.

Second, it specifically says that it transports objects.  It also says that if you want to see through it you have to actually stick your head through.

Third, "Energy" in D&D doesn't conform to real world logic, so attempts to apply your gut-level version of real world logic to the setting are a non-starter.  

What form of real world "energy" radiates cold?  Cold is an active energy type in D&D, not just a lack of heat.

Darkness exists in D&D in a manner that goes beyond a mere absence of light.  It's an active force.  

Lightning doesn't follow any normal rules for an electrical discharge, in the D&D world.  It goes in whichever direction the caster points their finger, instead of arcing to the nearest grounded object (which would be the spell caster 99 times out of a hundred).

Fireballs expand to a set radius, doing full damage all the way to the edge.

Energy dispersal in general doesn't follow the inverse distance square rule in D&D.  It goes X distance then cuts off, hard and sharp.  No degradation of effect over that distance, no leak through beyond that distance.

If you need to know how I feel about gut level logic/physics, go look up my posts on the hamster cannon.  You'll probably get a kick out of them.

BTW:  Was there a reference in there to Black Holes transporting things?  As far as I know, all they do is crush them.


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## TanisFrey (Mar 15, 2011)

What if Mithral is just what aluminum is called in that game world?


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## Pergentile (Mar 15, 2011)

Greenfield said:


> So, all he needs is knowledge of a metal that doesn't exist, and the metal will exist?



You are assuming I am referring to the metal and not the element, or alloy with aluminum as a component. Are you debating just for the sake of debating?



Greenfield said:


> Or does he also need an understanding of a smelting process that doesn't exist, driven by a continuous supply of electricity that doesn't exist, to create the metal that doesn't exist?



I'm sure you and I both could think of dozens of spells that can do something they shouldn't. I am also sure we can both think of spells that would do this, even though they shouldn't. Are you debating just for the sake of debating?



Greenfield said:


> That's hilarious.



How so? I don't see how what you said was a rebuttal of the idea of connecting the mirrors.



Greenfield said:


> Except that it means that there is still x amount of light energy all going to a lot of different places.  Like I said, the lens won't unify multiple light sources into one.  It's just a crossing point.  The only thing that this rig might do a "massive scale disintegrate" on is the lens itself, since that's the only place all the light is going to hit.



The lens doesn't need to unify them. It needs to focus them to a single point. I think something is being assumed or misinterpreted. Flat Mirror/s to redirect light to convex lens, and convex lens to focus light to a single point (about 1 milex1 mile) at the distance away that the lens is from the earth (We have already gotten past being able to hold the lens a certain distance from the earth). Are you debating just for the sake of debating?



Greenfield said:


> So you check the GPS coordinates?
> So you're arguing for a 50/50 miss chance?  Even Blindfighting won't help if you don't know which square to attack into.
> Astronauts "see" via RADAR, spotter planes, land based observers on the radio, and yes, with their eyes.



The only one of these that exist in the D&D world is the eyes.[/quote]
Are you saying basic latitude and longitude cannot exist in D&D? They seem like fairly simple concepts to me. Are you debating simply for the sake of debating?



Greenfield said:


> A general idea of knowing where things are?  Half of the American Civil War was a bloody comedy of errors because of inaccurate maps.  West Point was originally a cartography school (map making) and students had been mapping and remapping the entire region the war was fought on for generations, and with generations of surveys and mapmakers' notes, they still couldn't get any two maps to agree.  One general fought most of the war using a map from the fly leaf of a book, since it seemed more accurate than any of the others.



The American's during their civil war could not see things from any distance up one could possibly want, or use a Spell to have some Outsider simple craft a perfect map using empirical knowledge. You MUST be debating just for its own sake, because your points are starting to lose the clarity, concision and relevence of your earlier posts...



Greenfield said:


> And with GPS, orbital photos and aerial surveilance, modern artillery still uses forward spotters.  The much vaunted pinpoint accuracy of the Tomahawk missiles used in Iraq was achieved through the efforts of men on the ground "painting" the target with a laser.  The guidance system on those missiles in fact use a visual recognition system within the missiles themselves.



Modern things also cannot control variables like in D&D, where you can remove factors like inertia and gravity, and make other factors like wind, temperature, etc. inconsequential.



Greenfield said:


> attempts to apply your gut-level version of real world logic to the setting are a non-starter.



English isn't my first language, and I don't quite understand this sentence. Could you clarify? It seems like you might be trying to insult me or my way of thinking? At least one of the moderators on these forums reads things as "Dismissive and rude" even if they arguably aren't or aren't intended to be, so I suggest being careful.

It specifically says that it transports objects. It also says that if you want to see through it you have to actually stick your head through.
What form of real world "energy" radiates cold?  Cold is an active energy type in D&D, not just a lack of heat.
Darkness exists in D&D in a manner that goes beyond a mere absence of light.  It's an active force.  
Lightning doesn't follow any normal rules for an electrical discharge, in the D&D world.  It goes in whichever direction the caster points their finger, instead of arcing to the nearest grounded object (which would be the spell caster 99 times out of a hundred).
Fireballs expand to a set radius, doing full damage all the way to the edge.
Energy dispersal in general doesn't follow the inverse distance square rule in D&D.  It goes X distance then cuts off, hard and sharp.  No degradation of effect over that distance, no leak through beyond that distance.[/quote]
All very good points. ^^ You have made a convincing argument that the reality of D&D is very illogical.



Greenfield said:


> BTW:  Was there a reference in there to Black Holes transporting things?  As far as I know, all they do is crush them.



I was trying to reference the fact that they effect absolutely everything. Sorry for my poor wording. Also a black hole does not crush anything. A black hole is infinite mass in an infinitely small space, and it warps reality. It is not quite known what happens to things pulled in by a black hole but one theory I know of is that nothing ever actually makes to to the center of a black hole, since as you get closer to it, time slows, infinitely and since black holes also warp space, to say that the things it effects are compressed into a smaller space is... a stretch as far as theories go. Turn this thread into a discussion on black holes ftw!


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## Dandu (Mar 15, 2011)

> I was trying to reference the fact that they *effect *absolutely everything.



That word you keep using. I do not think it means what you think it means.


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## Greenfield (Mar 15, 2011)

Pergentile said:


> You are assuming I am referring to the metal and not the element, or alloy with aluminum as a component. Are you debating just for the sake of debating?



You spoke of smelting.  That's specific to the metal, not the raw element in a compound.  


> I'm sure you and I both could think of dozens of spells that can do something they shouldn't. I am also sure we can both think of spells that would do this, even though they shouldn't. Are you debating just for the sake of debating?



Dozens of spells that would give a continuous electrical current?  Sorry, but no.  Pretty much everything that does lightning damage has an effective duration of "instantaneous".  

So, since you can think of dozens, why not start with one.  Name one single unmodified, non-custom spell that will provide a continuous electrical current for the hours needed to separate bauxite into aluminum and oxygen.


> The lens doesn't need to unify them. It needs to focus them to a single point.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Pergentile (Mar 15, 2011)

Greenfield said:


> You spoke of smelting.  That's specific to the metal, not the raw element in a compound.



I spoke of a wizard with a smelting fetish. I can see the implication, but no.



Greenfield said:


> Dozens of spells that would give a continuous electrical current?  Sorry, but no.  Pretty much everything that does lightning damage has an effective duration of "instantaneous".



Dozens of spells that do what they should not. Maybe my poor English is causing confusion. Do I structure my sentences strangely? Also I did not say we could both think of a spell that can provide a constant electrical current, but of a spell that could separate the two elements when it logically shouldn't.... I can't though ha ha. Lets just use Mithral and call it a win on your part on the Aluminum discussion.



Greenfield said:


> Which it won't do.  Try it.  Go into a room with several light sources and try to focus them all into a single point of light using a lens.  You'll get an inverse image of the room, complete with images of several distinct light sources.



Which it will do. Try it. Go outside on a sunny day and roast some ants. Why are you assuming that the light is from several sources? It is simply a giant magnifying glass and the sun. The flat mirror would only be used to redirect the suns light to the magnifying glass when it is to be aimed somewhere that does not have sunlight.



Greenfield said:


> Latitude is easy.  Every sailor can figure that by sighting the stars.  Longitude, on the other hand, requires precise time measurements, accurate to the second, as measured against some base point.  In the real world, that's a rather famous city in England.  Timepieces accurate enough to measure this weren't available using medieval technology, and the need in fact inspired a hefty reward from the King of England for the clockmaker who could fashion such a piece. It took decades.



"Medieval technology" I thought we were using magic? Using magic to attain the correct information as to think of a system like latitude/longitude seems plausible to me.

I don't think saying that something could be targeted based on its location relative to several landmarks that could be seen from space is a stretch, or that its location relative to those landmarks could be figured out. Remember that this is theoretically being done by a high level wizard, who would have a LOT of time to dedicate to it. Even if latitude and longitude don't fit the bill, I still stand by my original statement that the castle you cannot see could still be targeted without seeing it based on knowledge and calculations.



Greenfield said:


> The forces during the American Civil War had observation balloons available, and spyglasses were definitely around.  Moreover, the map makers had had the opportunity to take all the time they needed, to walk the fields and roads, and to use surveyer's equipment to their heart's content.  And they still got it wrong, over and over.



I don't see how this rebuts my point. I only see how it shows the flaws of what Americans did, and of the imperfect systems humans used and still use. I don't think that the fact that the Americans can't make a proper map is an accurate example of how targeting based on relevant location could not be done in D&D.



Greenfield said:


> What do any of those have to do with seeing a castle from orbit?



Nothing, they have to do with making things easier to accurately aim. Did you not say that even high tech stuff nowadays needs to have its target painted? When there is absolutely no outside forces effecting ones calculations or few enough that they can be accounted for, one can reliably say that projectile A will hit target B, regardless of the distance between them.



Greenfield said:


> My point was that our gut level interpretations of logic and physics are often just plain wrong.  I could give examples, like the "hamster cannon", but I think you already know what I'm talking about.  Trying to apply these very questionable tools to a setting where both logic and physics are distorted by game rules that defy both is a bad idea.  A "non starter", meaning something that doesn't even survive a cursory examination.



Nicely put; what is gut level?



Greenfield said:


> Text about Black Holes



^^ Where did you read that from an outside perspective, one could see something go into a black hole? I thought that light was also warped, and that nothing can be seen from within a certain radius of the black hole? (Black Hole may have been named for the fact that it does look like a hole of nothingness since it warps light, but the phenomenon itself is an infinitely small point) Do you mean one will reach the outside edge of the pocket of light-less space in a finite amount of time?



Greenfield said:


> As for the "debating for the sake of debating" question: This whole thread has been about a "thought experiment", and yes, I've taken the role of spoiler. So yes, I've been debating more or less for the fun of it, as has pretty much everyone else involved.



I think of "debate for the sake of debating" as one trying to rebut every single point, even if one's points start to become less than polished. I agree that a thought experiment elicits a wide range of topics etc, but when ones points become hard to discern, or start to become based on assumption, and stop being effective in their rebuttal, I see them as not having a point in said thought discussion. I would like to point to post #20 as an example.


There are a lot of points that have been made. It is getting difficult to decide whether this is possible or not.


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## Dandu (Mar 15, 2011)

> Nothing, they have to do with making things easier to accurately aim.  Did you not say that even high tech stuff nowadays needs to have its  target painted? When there is absolutely no outside forces effecting  ones calculations or few enough that they can be accounted for, one can  reliably say that projectile A will hit target B, regardless of the  distance between them.




It's how artillery works.


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## kitcik (Mar 15, 2011)

Pergentile said:


> I think of "debate for the sake of debating" as one trying to rebut every single point, even if one's points start to become less than polished.
> 
> ...when ones points become hard to discern, or start to become based on assumption, and stop being effective in their rebuttal, I see them as not having a point in said thought discussion.




You rebutted nine separate points in this post alone, most of which had nothing to do with the topic of the thread. THAT is "debate for the sake of debating" and I find you guilty. YOU will test the ring gate!


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## Greenfield (Mar 16, 2011)

Pergentile said:


> I spoke of a wizard with a smelting fetish. I can see the implication, but no.



You mentioned the "Fetish for smelting", and then joined in on the debate over how Aluminum is smelted.  Only after that point was lost did you decide that you were never really talking about that.


> Dozens of spells that do what they should not. Maybe my poor English is causing confusion. Do I structure my sentences strangely? Also I did not say we could both think of a spell that can provide a constant electrical current, but of a spell that could separate the two elements when it logically shouldn't.... I can't though ha ha. Lets just use Mithral and call it a win on your part on the Aluminum discussion.



Try Wall of Fire, altered by Energy Substitution and made permanent, for the endless power source.  Or Fabricate to smelt the metal, once you know how.  It's that problem of "once you know how" that messes that one up.


> Which it will do. Try it. Go outside on a sunny day and roast some ants. Why are you assuming that the light is from several sources? It is simply a giant magnifying glass and the sun. The flat mirror would only be used to redirect the suns light to the magnifying glass when it is to be aimed somewhere that does not have sunlight.



I'm presuming that it's from several separate sources because we've effectively discarded the idea of making a parabolic mirror on the scale needed, with a focal length in the tens of thousands of miles.  We've been talking about that for some time.  Now, if you want a single flat mirror 200 miles across, it can direct light at a single target, providing that the target is 200 miles across.  It won't focus it.  Now if you have a way to fabricate a lens 200 miles across, somehow bypassing the volume limits of the spell, that would be interesting.  You'd still face the problem of grinding it so it has a focal length in the tens of thousands of miles, a goal that was discarded as impossible quite a while ago.

All you've done is relocate the problem, without actually solving it.   


> "Medieval technology" I thought we were using magic? Using magic to attain the correct information as to think of a system like latitude/longitude seems plausible to me.



So use magic to establish the exact time someplace else.  Not hard at all.  Use spherical trigonometry to calculate your position.  Now you have some useful numbers.

What will you do with them?  We'll pretend that you can somehow Spot a reference point to measure from using those numbers. At most they'd count as "Aid Another" and give you a +2 to a Spot check being made with a penalty in the tens of thousands.  And they definitely won't help you when the attack roll comes.


> I don't see how this rebuts my point. I only see how it shows the flaws of what Americans did, and of the imperfect systems humans used and still use. I don't think that the fact that the Americans can't make a proper map is an accurate example of how targeting based on relevant location could not be done in D&D.



It rebuts it in noting that mapmaking, even with years of effort, wasn't a precise science, and in many ways still isn't.  (Try navigating around Washington DC some time.  Depending on which map you use, Prince Street either crosses Kings Street or runs parallel to it.  I'm not kidding.)  Knowing *exactly* where something is isn't nearly as easy as some might think, particularly when you don't have aerial photography.  (Flight exists in D&D, as it did during the Civil War via balloon.  Photography during the war tops anything available in D&D, and it still wasn't enough to make a difference.)


> Nothing, they have to do with making things easier to accurately aim. Did you not say that even high tech stuff nowadays needs to have its target painted? When there is absolutely no outside forces effecting ones calculations or few enough that they can be accounted for, one can reliably say that projectile A will hit target B, regardless of the distance between them.



Because inertia and temperature affect a beam of light?

Okay, temperature actually does to some extent, but since you have no way to stabilize the temperature over the target, from ground level up to the stratosphere, it hardly makes a difference.  

But just for giggles, take a .22 caliber gun out someplace isolated.  Strap it down to a concrete block.  Fire it.  The slugs will carry for almost a mile.  If your theory is correct, two shots fired within a second of each other should strike almost in the same hole at that distance.

Now try it again at a closer target.  Say 200 yards.  Now again at 100 yards.  Now at 100 feet.  Now at 10 feet.

Tell me how close you have to get to pop them both in the same hole.  I'm betting that it's somewhere in the 10 foot or less range.  And that's with mass produced ammunition, powder counted to the exact grain, in a finely machined weapon.  

Now, when it comes to aiming your huge mirror and lens, we get the fun of accounting for thermal expansion of your supporting frame, part of which will be in sunlight and part in shadow.  And the temperature change will be an ongoing process as your platform orbits.  The mirror will distort, an alteration invisible to the human eye, but more than enough to send your 200,000 mile shot off into never never land.  The castle you're aiming for will be the safest place in the world, with regards to your weapon, since it will be the one place that can't be hit by accident.  


> Nicely put; what is gut level?



Quoting ideas as you think they should work, without actually doing the math.  The Hamster Cannon example played with this, that someone had a basic idea of "Conservation of Momentum", and forgot that the world wasn't the stationary foundation of the universe.  

Here's another example that people often get wrong.

If I try to drive from LA to San Francisco, it's about 400 miles.  If I drive that in 8 hours, I average 50 miles an hour.  If I want to drive it in 4 hours I need to average 100 miles an hour.

So if I want to split the difference between an 8 hour trip and a 4 hour one, and drive it in 6 hours, how fast do I have to drive?

Gut level response typically says 75 miles an hour, splitting the difference between 50 mph and 100 mph.  And that answer is wrong.  Do the math if you don't believe me.

That's what I mean by "gut level".  The answer that feels right if you don't think about it too much.

Regarding black holes:  "Infinitely small" is a misnomer.  Immeasurably small would be a better way to say it.  Space distorts, making such a measurement meaningless, or so the theory goes.  And yes, the idea that an outside observer could "see" the impact is also a misstatement, a "gut level" answer, if you will.  But the point is that the time dilation is specific to the frame of reference.  The "outside observer" doesn't suffer the illusion of an infinite delay in falling.  Presuming that they had some way of observing the moment of impact, it would happen in linear time.



> I think of "debate for the sake of debating" as one trying to rebut every single point, even if one's points start to become less than polished.



Considering the length and detail of your post, I find that hilarious.  You've added tangent after tangent to this discussion, and when I've tried to dismiss some as irrelevant, you've worked to drag them all right back in again.   


> I agree that a thought experiment elicits a wide range of topics etc, but when ones points become hard to discern, or start to become based on assumption, and stop being effective in their rebuttal, I see them as not having a point in said thought discussion.



Were you _trying_ to describe your posting style, or is that just a happy coincidence? 


> There are a lot of points that have been made. It is getting difficult to decide whether this is possible or not.



Easily possible, if you're willing to ignore the rules of the game, while simultaneously ignoring the laws of physics.  Only by selectively choosing which rules to use, and when, can this be done.  If you try to follow either real world laws of physics, or game world rules as written, it can't be done, short of a barrel full of Wishes.


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## Pergentile (Mar 16, 2011)

I will admit, I am obviously not following the thread as well as I want to think. Lets simplify things for my sake.

Parabolic, kept at a set distance from the earth, and made to focus light at a point equal to that of the distance away that the earth is, was discarded? Was the device itself determined to be structurally impossible, or was the curve of the parabolic decided to be impossible to determine?

Lets just contact a god and ask them what curve the parabolic should have, at X distance from the earth, where x is the distance needed to be able to orbit the earth while staying above a specific point (unless obtaining orbit that follows the rotation of the earth is impossible...).

Lets not aim it, lets just go Dr. Evil style on a country and just drag the "Disintegrate" all over said country. Lets draw our name. To hell with aiming at anything specific. Wouldn't the penalty to hit due to distance be irrelevant if the thing can only damage a set distance, and the target is always at said distance? Even if it is relevant, the device would cause considerable damage to anything vertically within several miles of the intended focus point wouldn't it? Meaning that you could drag it over a mountain or a valley and still get destruction out of it. It would be a matter of moving the thing horizontally relative to the earth. Any penalty in that regards would easily be offset by the fact that you are directing the thing straight at the center of the earth from your perspective on the device. What would be the modifier to hit the earth? I think it would be equal to any arguable penalty from distance, etc.

Since you (Greenfield) argued yourself that Aluminum is a prime choice to make said parabolic out of (a mirror in this case), is there no metal in D&D that would be appropriate? Adamantine, Mithral, some "indestructable and unalterable" material that can only be manipulated with magic? Would Diamond do the job?

Could we even just use a spell that redirects sunlight, and make it permanent, and cast it (365(24(60(10*1d4+1)))) times?

I really do want to see this thing be made possible. It is an entire campaign in a single idea.

As always, <3 you Greenfield!


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## Dandu (Mar 16, 2011)

Re: presence of aluminum in DnD.

A suby is composed of CrAl2O3. An emerald's consists of Be3Al2(Si03)6. A sappire is Al2O3

Guess what Al stands for?


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## Alexander123 (Mar 16, 2011)

Dandu said:


> Re: presence of aluminum in DnD.
> 
> A suby is composed of CrAl2O3. An emerald's consists of Be3Al2(Si03)6. A sappire is Al2O3
> 
> Guess what Al stands for?




I would just like to say that to rule that aluminum doesn't exist in D&D is one of the stupidest rulings anyone could make.

It is completely arbitrary and is only designed to put an end to player creativity.


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## kitcik (Mar 16, 2011)

Alexander123 said:


> I would just like to say that to rule that aluminum doesn't exist in D&D is one of the stupidest rulings anyone could make.
> 
> It is completely arbitrary and is only designed to put an end to player creativity.




Curses, "foiled" again!


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## Greenfield (Mar 16, 2011)

Pergentile said:


> I will admit, I am obviously not following the thread as well as I want to think. Lets simplify things for my sake.
> 
> Parabolic, kept at a set distance from the earth, and made to focus light at a point equal to that of the distance away that the earth is, was discarded? Was the device itself determined to be structurally impossible, or was the curve of the parabolic decided to be impossible to determine?



I questioned the skill check needed to create such a mirror, with a curvature so precise as to give it a focal point 231,000 miles away (presuming a lunar orbit).  We couldn't build that now, with the most precise machines we have.  Hell, we had to retro-fit the parabolic in the Hubble because of an optical flaw.  

Dandu suggested a combination of skill, Aid Another and Moment of Prescience to give him a total bonus in the 60s.  I questioned "Aid Another" from an Unseen Servant, as well as using Aid Another to help a Fabricate, since they can't actually do anything to Aid.  We also determined that Moment of Prescience only applies to opposed skill checks, not just any skill check.  I also questioned whether a check in the 70s or 80s (adding in the presumed dice roll) would be anywhere close to doing the job in any case.

In reality, making a mirror optically flat enough to just reflect accurately at that distance is just about as hard.  


> Lets just contact a god and ask them what curve the parabolic should have, at X distance from the earth, where x is the distance needed to be able to orbit the earth while staying above a specific point (unless obtaining orbit that follows the rotation of the earth is impossible...).



Let's pretend that a deity could and would give you that answer.  I'm sure there's a patron deity for hair brained schemes out there, after all.  We have gods of everything else.

Now that you have it, how will you put it into use?  How will you make such a mirror, when the curvature would be imperceptible to the human eye, or any known instrument.  Seriously, there's such a thing as "margin of error", and in this case that margin is less than a micron.  There isn't a polishing compound fine enough to avoid leaving micro-scratches larger than the grinding tolerances would allow for.

The minor changes in shape from movement stress and temperature variance will add more irregularities to the mirror(s).  Remember, a thousandth of a degree makes a huge difference over a course of over 200,000 miles. 



> Lets not aim it, lets just go Dr. Evil style on a country and just drag the "Disintegrate" all over said country. Lets draw our name. To hell with aiming at anything specific. Wouldn't the penalty to hit due to distance be irrelevant if the thing can only damage a set distance, and the target is always at said distance? Even if it is relevant, the device would cause considerable damage to anything vertically within several miles of the intended focus point wouldn't it? Meaning that you could drag it over a mountain or a valley and still get destruction out of it. It would be a matter of moving the thing horizontally relative to the earth. Any penalty in that regards would easily be offset by the fact that you are directing the thing straight at the center of the earth from your perspective on the device. What would be the modifier to hit the earth? I think it would be equal to any arguable penalty from distance, etc.



Here's where we get back to the difference between game rules and the laws of physics.  The castle would be considered Colossal size, giving you a +8 to hit it.  The County or Barony it was in would be considered as Colossal size as well, as would the nation, the continent, and in fact the planet itself.  Colossal is as big as the scale gets in the game rules.  You could invent a term for something bigger, but at that point you're back to ignoring the actual rules.

As for the precise focal length:  You're right, who cares if you're off by a few miles.  Less damage over more area, or more damage over less, it works out the same in the end.  The question is more a matter of whether you have any focal point at all.  Does your immense mirror (that can't actually be Fabricated at that size) actually bring all that light into focus on any point at all?    


> Since you (Greenfield) argued yourself that Aluminum is a prime choice to make said parabolic out of (a mirror in this case), is there no metal in D&D that would be appropriate? Adamantine, Mithral, some "indestructable and unalterable" material that can only be manipulated with magic? Would Diamond do the job?



First, I never said aluminum would do the job.  

Second, neither Adamantine nor Mithral are indestructible or unalterable in D&D.  Maybe you're thinking of Adamantium, from Marvel Comics?  

And even there, there are powers that can break it.  

In both universes, their "ultimate metal" can be bent, even if it does tend to spring back.  How you would Craft an indestructible, unalterable metal is, of course, another problem, but we'll ignore it for the moment.

Would diamond work?  It's actually the preferred material for high precision reflectors in the real world, but even carbon crystal, the hardest substance known, expands and contracts with temperature changes.  Your huge reflector would still distort with heat, even if you had some way to grind it to that impossible precision.  (Which you still don't.)


> Could we even just use a spell that redirects sunlight, and make it permanent, and cast it (365(24(60(10*1d4+1)))) times?



You can invent any spell you like.  You could even specify that that it will somehow stack with itself.  We're getting back to that "ignore the rules of the game" issue, of course, but we'll ignore that as well.

You still can't hit your target at that range.  And you'll need to roll that attack roll 365(24(60(10*1D4+1))) times, taking a standard action per attack, while your target is shifting away at a thousand miles an hour (surface velocity of a rotating earth-sized planet with a 24 hour day).  By the time you've lined up your 5th reflector, the first one is off target.  You'll be spending weeks setting up the attack on a target that's gone from sight in 12 hours.  


> I really do want to see this thing be made possible. It is an entire campaign in a single idea.
> 
> As always, <3 you Greenfield!



There are two ways to make it work.

1) Use a cargo ship full of Wishes.
2) Cheat.

(Note, the two solutions aren't mutually exclusive.)

Oh, there is anther way.  Create an Artifact, the Wrath of Pelor.  Its power is that it will send a beam of sunlight unerringly at any target in sight, doing damage based on the amount of sunlight striking it.  

Now build your array of mirrors, all focused on a single point a few hundred yards away.  You can Take 20 on the aim, trying again and again as you fine-tune it until you get it just right.  Since these aren't actual attack rolls (there isn't one with this method), Take 20 is allowed.

All that's left is building the orbital platform to mount it on, and we've already addressed that issue.  (Stone + Levitate + Greater Teleport + 12 Decanter's of Endless Water to use as maneuvering jets to build orbital velocity, add Wall of Stone again and again to create the platform itself.)

Epic enough?


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 16, 2011)

Dandu said:


> Guess what Al stands for?




[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9xbikYWOAs&feature=youtube_gdata_player]YouTube - Paul Simon- You Can Call Me Al[/ame]


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## Greenfield (Mar 16, 2011)

Dandu said:


> Re: presence of aluminum in DnD.
> 
> A suby is composed of CrAl2O3. An emerald's consists of Be3Al2(Si03)6. A sappire is Al2O3
> 
> Guess what Al stands for?



Never said, or argued that the element doesn't exist.  It's been around forever, and known or used for almost as long.  The ancient Romans used Alum as a medicine and as a dye, for example.  (Alum is Aluminum Sulfate)

I just said that the discovery of it as a useful metal had to wait for the industrial use of electricity, since you need that to smelt it.

As an element it was isolated in 1825 by a chemist, Hans Christian Oersted, though it had been suspected much earlier.  

In game terms I'd have to rate its production as an alchemical process rather than something a smith might do.  It was so hard to produce that it considered more valuable than gold at one time.

Look at Aluminium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia if you want some history.  It's the best mirror coating, and probably the worst structural material for a project like this, because it's so soft, and undergoes a lot of expansion/contraction with temperature changes.


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## Dandu (Mar 17, 2011)

Yes, in real life they had to wait for an efficient extraction process.

In the world of Dungeons and Dragons, however...


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## Alexander123 (Mar 17, 2011)

Medical science in D&D is also hundreds of years more advanced than modern medical science.


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## Summer-Knight925 (Mar 17, 2011)

If telekenisis works in space...and all things in space are weightless, why not just crash the moon into the country and be even more awsome?

No one forgets the guy who drops a moon on someone to make a point, you don't mess with that guy either...he'll drop a moon on you

and as for all this ring-gate debate the answer is simple.

"Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
*One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
*In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie."



and if you were to do that much work to destroy a country anyways...why not just cast earthquake? :3 to soon japan?


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## Dandu (Mar 17, 2011)

Summer-Knight925 said:


> If telekenisis works in space...and all things in space are weightless, why not just crash the moon into the country and be even more awsome?



The moon is its own source of gravity.


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## Pergentile (Mar 17, 2011)

"Can't make mirror perfect enough"
I thought a huge number of spells in D&D hinged on your will alone? All you would need to do is know of what you would need, and your will itself would make it as perfect as it needs to be, no? (Question, not argument)

"Earth is Colossal"
Some things in D&D MUST be homebrewed, as the WotC people are not perfect, and so it is arguable that making a new size category for a planet could be considered official rule, regardless of the fact that it would vary for every group. To consider earth to be the same size category as a dragon is... No, I'm not even going to bother arguing the logic. I'll just leave it at that for everyone following this.

Awesome. Smaller mirror array, set at a closer distance, focusing on a "Wrath of Palor". Pristine mirrors would be best, but not a necessity in this case.
What book is that in?

This challenge has successfully been completed, yes? Should Dandu think of the next challenge? I personally think Greenfield gets VIP in this thread. I really don't want this thread to end, but since any more arguments would be moot, a new thread should be made, with a new idea.
Maybe a discussion on a star and what it would be considered in D&D? (Combustion does not equal fusion) I really like the idea of making a gateway in the middle of a star and having its own gravity force itself through the gateway.
Bathing the earth in the light of a thousand suns... here I come.

Side note... I thought energy could not travel in the form of heat, (since heat is just molecules with high energy) in a vacuum? Would the light energy, after it is turned partially to heat energy when contacting the mirrors, really dissipate into the vacuum behind the mirrors? How does earth, then, keep from dropping to absolute zero...?


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## Greenfield (Mar 17, 2011)

Pergentile said:


> "Can't make mirror perfect enough"
> I thought a huge number of spells in D&D hinged on your will alone? All you would need to do is know of what you would need, and your will itself would make it as perfect as it needs to be, no? (Question, not argument)



Fabricate is the crafting spell, and it still requires a crafting skill check.  While it's nearly instantaneous, it has problems as well.  You can't claim crafting bonuses from masterworked artisan's tools, circumstance bonuses for having access to a well prepared shop, nor Aid bonuses from assistants, since they can't actually participate in the crafting.

In the end, it still comes down to a skill check, and the item is only as "perfect" as you could make it by hand.

Greater Creation can create the mirrors out of nothing at all, though they don't last, and there's still a Craft check involved for fine work.  

To my mind, a parabolic mirror with a focal length of 231,000 miles qualifies as "fine work".  Hell, it's overqualified if anything.


> "Earth is Colossal"
> Some things in D&D MUST be homebrewed, as the WotC people are not perfect, and so it is arguable that making a new size category for a planet could be considered official rule, regardless of the fact that it would vary for every group. To consider earth to be the same size category as a dragon is... No, I'm not even going to bother arguing the logic. I'll just leave it at that for everyone following this.



Most of my argument here has been that you can follow the rules of the game, or you can try to follow the laws of physics and "common sense".  It's really hard to do both.

So if your solution is to "homebrew" an answer (which amounts to changing/ignoring the rules of the game) then that's your solution.  



> Awesome. Smaller mirror array, set at a closer distance, focusing on a "Wrath of Palor". Pristine mirrors would be best, but not a necessity in this case.
> What book is that in?



It isn't.  I made it up.  In fact, I said as much when I wrote "...create an Artifact".  And there's no reason to limit it to a smaller mirror array.  You could include as many as you like.

What you need to look out for is the enemy with a mirror of his own.  He'll be able to redirect your weapon to use as he will.



> Side note... I thought energy could not travel in the form of heat, (since heat is just molecules with high energy) in a vacuum? Would the light energy, after it is turned partially to heat energy when contacting the mirrors, really dissipate into the vacuum behind the mirrors? How does earth, then, keep from dropping to absolute zero...?



Infra-red radiation is a form of light, radiant energy, and can travel through a vacuum.  It excites molecules when it strikes them, inducing "brownian motion", meaning vibration on the molecular scale.  Other wavelengths of light can do this as well, but less effectively.

These molecules can re-emit the infra-red energy, which can again radiate back into space.  If that couldn't happen then you wouldn't worry about the Earth dropping to absolute zero, you'd worry about it superheating into a plasma cloud.  The ultimate "greenhouse effect".


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## Samloyal23 (May 16, 2012)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Start with pocketful of Reduced or Itemized boulders that you brung into space.
> 
> OR
> 
> Create Wonderous Item: A "dirty" version of Decanter of Endless Water.  The Decanter of Endless Earth will produce dirt, rocks and boulders until you tell it not to.




This is interesting... You could make a decanter for any element really, could you not? How about a decanter of endless fire? What about para-elements and quasi-elements? A large enough _decanter of endless vacuum _could suck a planet's atmosphere away, presumably diverting it to the Plane of Vacuum. You could build into the structure of a really large spelljamming ship, and use it to devour the ozone around a pesky planet. A _decanter of endless ash _ could pollute a huge area given enough time. Drop a few thousand on a planet and it could block sunlight, killing off the plant life and changing the climate...


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## Shaghayegh (May 17, 2012)

Pergentile said:


> "The Earth isn't hiding. Spot checks aren't required."
> LOL! Next goal after deathstar... giving the earth sentience so it can make hide checks... XD





There's already a living demiplane, why not a living planet? Imagine a gaseous planet turning slowly into organic compounds and then congealing into proteins that develop a cellur structure...


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## Shaghayegh (May 17, 2012)

Samloyal23 said:


> This is interesting... You could make a decanter for any element really, could you not? How about a decanter of endless fire? What about para-elements and quasi-elements? A large enough _decanter of endless vacuum _could suck a planet's atmosphere away, presumably diverting it to the Plane of Vacuum. You could build into the structure of a really large spelljamming ship, and use it to devour the ozone around a pesky planet. A _decanter of endless ash _could pollute a huge area given enough time. Drop a few thousand on a planet and it could block sunlight, killing off the plant life and changing the climate...




A Decanter of Endless Fire on "geyser" setting would make a good rocket. Just find a way to aim it and make a crude warhead out of vials of oil and thunderstones...


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## Greenfield (May 18, 2012)

First, an object or person doesn't need to be "trying to hide" in order to call for a spot check.

Consider the person on foot in an open field, no cover.  DC 0 to spot.  But wait, did I mention that they're 10 miles away?  The distance modifier makes the Spot pretty much impossible, both in the real world and in the game.  Even though they aren't "trying to hide" and have no cover.

Second, why would a Decanter of Endless Fire make a good rocket?  Because it shoots fire the way fireworks do?  Since the whole gizmo is an attempt to use physics in a magical realm, physics still applies.  Action/reaction.  How much does the fire weigh?  How fast is it shooting out?

Mass1 x Velocity1 = Mass2 x Velocity2.  Small mass at high speed moves a larger mass at a slower speed.  The near-zero mass of flaming gas at a speed to carry it 20 feet (presuming the Decanter of Fire follows the model of the Decanter of Water) will result in a near-zero change in your man made asteroid's motion.  We use fire in our real world rockets because of gaseous expansion:  It's a way to get our reaction mass into motion.

The V2 of WWII fame used Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2) as the fuel.  It hit's a catalyst material and all the excess oxygen is released in an exo-thermic reaction.  2(H2O2) becomes 2(H2O) + O2 and a lot of heat.  That boils the H2O, and expansion forces it out the tailpipe.

That is, by the way, the same fuel and reaction that powers the jet packs you'll occasionally see at parades, sporting events or James Bond movies.  They fly for about 15 seconds and then they're done.

And a Decanter of Vacuum?  Is Vacuum an element?  Or even a demi-element?


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## Shaghayegh (May 18, 2012)

Greenfield said:


> First, an object or person doesn't need to be "trying to hide" in order to call for a spot check.
> 
> Consider the person on foot in an open field, no cover. DC 0 to spot. But wait, did I mention that they're 10 miles away? The distance modifier makes the Spot pretty much impossible, both in the real world and in the game. Even though they aren't "trying to hide" and have no cover.
> 
> ...




That depends on how you interpret the volume of matter being produced. Think of it as the same amount of material in plasma form as a water decanter produces jetted out in the same amount of time...


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## Shaghayegh (May 20, 2012)

Greenfield said:


> And a Decanter of Vacuum? Is Vacuum an element? Or even a demi-element?




Vacuum is a quasi-element, representing the Negation of Air. As such, in game terms, yes, it is an elemental force. Just as a vase is not a vase without the empty space within it, vacuum is a real thing that helps define other things that would not exist without it...


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## Samloyal23 (May 27, 2012)

Shaghayegh said:


> There's already a living demiplane, why not a living planet? Imagine a gaseous planet turning slowly into organic compounds and then congealing into proteins that develop a cellur structure...




The center of the planet would be crystallized by atmospheric pressure. If it was big enough cold fusion would occur, creating  charge that alter the chemistry of the proteins, creating life. The entire planet would be like a vast brain. It could survive by eating other planets, using telekinesis to move and tear off chunks of other worlds...


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## Shaghayegh (Jun 6, 2012)

Samloyal23 said:


> The center of the planet would be crystallized by atmospheric pressure. If it was big enough cold fusion would occur, creating charge that alter the chemistry of the proteins, creating life. The entire planet would be like a vast brain. It could survive by eating other planets, using telekinesis to move and tear off chunks of other worlds...




LOOOOTTTTSSSS of hit points! Lol. How on in the Multiverse would stat a living planet? You cannot even scale the size within the rules...


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## RUMBLETiGER (Jun 6, 2012)

A living planet would be the natural conclusion of This Concept.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jun 6, 2012)

Hmmm...

http://th09.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2010/092/9/5/ego___the_living_planet_by_alecyl.jpg

http://media.comicbookmovie.com/images/users/uploads/18262/mogo.jpg

Actually, I think the living planet is just one (unlikely) outcome of that concept...and one that would take a billion+ years to occur...


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## RUMBLETiGER (Jun 6, 2012)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Hmmm...
> 
> http://th09.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2010/092/9/5/ego___the_living_planet_by_alecyl.jpg



http://media.comicbookmovie.com/images/users/uploads/18262/mogo.jpgAlright, I'll buy that a living planet might have eyes and a mouth, but a nose??



Dannyalcatraz said:


> Actually, I think the living planet is just one (unlikely) outcome of that concept...and one that would take a billion+ years to occur...



Would the spread/growth of the organism be incremental or exponential?


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jun 7, 2012)

Nose = supervolcanoes?

As for the second question...damn if I know!


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## Shaghayegh (Jun 7, 2012)

A living planet would not need a nose, what would it breathe? It would be more like a gigantic ooze developed from the chemical reactions of a gas cloud. It could possibly have eyes or other sense organs, but it would have a radically different structure than most multicellular creatures...


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jun 7, 2012)

> A living planet would not need a nose, what would it breathe?




The sparse, but still extant, molecules present in "empty" space.


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## Shaghayegh (Jun 7, 2012)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> The sparse, but still extant, molecules present in "empty" space.




Meh. Makes no sense for a creature to develop that way on it own. A megacellular lifeform, essentially a giant amoeba, would just absorb energy and gases through a cellular membrane...


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## Dandu (Jun 7, 2012)

Perhaps the planet feeds on the transluminiferous ether of space, like the planet Earth did in Arthur Conan Doyl's story When the Earth Screamed?


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## Shaghayegh (Jun 7, 2012)

Dandu said:


> Perhaps the planet feeds on the transluminiferous ether of space, like the planet Earth did in Arthur Conan Doyl's story When the Earth Screamed?




The solar wind and asteroids would be its main diet, until it got powerful enough to start moving through space to eat other nearby planets...


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## Samloyal23 (Jun 11, 2012)

A living planet could have incredible mental powers. I am thinking it could communicate with minds on other planets, maybe other crystal spheres...


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