# Revenant up



## Rechan (Jun 15, 2009)

Download - 376_Playing_Revenants.pdf

Aside from a few feats, I'm actually very disappointed in the mechanics here. It gives me a real "Meh". So much they could've done.


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## Vael (Jun 15, 2009)

I dunno, I kinda like their mechanics. I was surprised to see DEX/CON, I'd had them pegged as INT/CON ... but I think their class options drove that choice. Revenants apparently make good assassins and rogues ... indicating the assassin is another DEX-based class.


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## Moon_Goddess (Jun 15, 2009)

I don't really have any desire to play a revenant, but I really want to take the Free Soul ED.

The concept is just cool


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## GMforPowergamers (Jun 15, 2009)

I don't dislike it...

but after all the build up, I feel it is only OK. I mean really it is cool, but it would have fit in PHB3 as just another race easy...


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## stonegod (Jun 15, 2009)

I like it. Its already given me ideas. The Epic Destiny is pretty flavorful.


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## Shroomy (Jun 15, 2009)

I like them, especially the way you can hybridize your race.  I really want to play a revenant vestige pact warlock; the two fit well together IMO so its unfortunate that there wasn't a related feat.  That said, Life Thief is an awesome feat for revenant rogues.


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## Rechan (Jun 15, 2009)

First of all, I don't like the Dex/Con. Maybe it's just showing my frustration with classes and races keying into very narrow ability score necessities, but I just don't like it. I was really hoping for Con/Int. Or Con/Wis (Considering their connection to the raven queen; Avengers/Clerics). Namely because there are only 2.5 classes (Rogue, Monk, half of the ranger), maybe a 3rd (Assassin) that use Dex as a primary. There is only _one_ class, with only *half* of its builds, that key off Con (Infernal and Vestige warlock), and those pacts do not jive with the race's fluff. And If these guys are so important to the Raven Queen, then why are they all suited for Warlocks and Rogues, not anything even remotely related to the RQ? 

Second, this race _should_ have Necrotic resistance. Deva gets both Radiant and Necrotic resistance, Fire Genasi and Tieflings get Fire Resistance. The Revenant has to spend _two_ feats just to get to the Resist Necrotic. As it stands, Deva are better hunters of the undead than a race created by the Raven Queen, hater of undead!

I'm not sold on unnatural vitality. I think the Warforge's "Take 10 on a death save" is more appropriate. The Unnatural vitality just doesn't feel undead-y to me. It feels more appropriate to the Minotaur or a barbarian than it does a revenant; maybe if the Revenant didn't ever go unconscious (until it DIED), but was just dazed while at negative HP. As it stands, Unnatural Vitality doesn't conjure the image of the unstoppable "The Crow" style pursuer, it's "Crap someone get me a heal stat". 

Past Life is cute, but ultimately leads to feat tax. Most racial feats boost that race's racial power. For the Revenant to qualify for _those_ feats, it needs a "Get the Race's racial power" feat. And _then_ they have to decide between using the Revenant's racial power OR the Past Life racial power. Beyond feats, there aren't that many racial PPs/ED to begin with, so meh. 

Speaking of the Revenant's racial power, _blegh_. First, it keys off when something hits 0, and then you have to connect with your next attack. That's really corner case specific circumstance. More importantly, I shouldn't have to count the number of monsters with necrotic resistance, and against said monsters, your racial is _useless_. Compare to the DB racial, which can be resisted commonly (if you pick fire or poison), but it's at least a minor action close blast 3. In order to use your power against anything that isn't resistant to necrotic damage, you have to take Another feat. The least they could've done was offer a feat to allow you to punch through necrotic resistance, either for other necrotic powers (making Revenants good for necrotic using classes, considering they ARE close to the grave, y'know) or for your Dark Reaping. 

Which brings me to the feats.

The majority of the feats fall into 3 categories: Get the racial power of your race, supe up your Dark Reaping, or trick out your Unnatural Vitality. I've all ready told you what I thought of all those features in the _first_ place. I personally think many of these feats are feat taxes; "Death's Blessing" should be a racial trait, period. I once again compare the Revenant to the Warforged, who don't need to eat, drink or breathe. That's _what playing an undead race is about_, damnit. 

Spectral Reaping makes me mad. So you don't do half damage on that single attack for the round against an insubstantial foe, after something else has dropped. But I can count on my hand the number of monsters that have insubstantial but _aren't_ resistant to necrotic damage, so you're not getting the benefit of Dark Reaping when you make the attack - just that this one attack isn't weakened. 

A few feats did catch my eye. Life Thief is the only reason to use this race with a Rogue, at all. Death Scorned is appropriate - now that's the kind of feat I'm talking about (albeit it makes me wonder if it stacks with Human Preserverance). Cull the Weak makes Dark Reaping far more useful and appropriate, IMO (and how I think Dark Reaping should work). Unnatural Stamina is sexy, and Resilience of Death is nice. Reaping Burst is a little better. Remembered Nack is cute and flavorful.

The reason I focused so much on the mechanics of it is because I really do enjoy the fluff. A lot. The story has lots of potential and various options. And I've always wanted to play an undeadish Race, and here WotC was going to make that legitimate. But the execution kills it for me.

They dropped the ball; there were a dozen directions they could have taken it and they didn't. The Warforged makes a better revenant than this. Setting the Revenant next to the Deva's resistances, the WF's avoidance of breath and taking 10 on death saves, and far more useful Racial powers of most races, the Revenant looks like a day old corpse. It *doesn't feel touched by the grave* to me. I want something that went into the Underworld and came out the other side, walking and talking Death. Something that sneers in the face of Undead, for it has nothing to fear from them. I want something that is the go-to when you want to play a Necromancer, or a Cleric/Avenger/Paladin of the Raven Queen, or whathaveyou. A once-per-encounter piddly necrotic damage and an extra standard action before dropping ain't it.

I was excited and had high hopes for this race. I should have just stuck with One Bad Egg's "Half Dead"; it's not everything I want, but it serves my purposes better than this. If this is the exclusive content from DDi, then they can keep it.


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## Ktulu (Jun 15, 2009)

I'll have to reserve judgement until I can play around with it a little (character builder update...grr..), but I'm not hating it, yet.  However, I was saddened that it's more rogue than avenger.  I really saw this as being the Avenger's race.


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## hvg3akaek (Jun 15, 2009)

I did think it would have been nicer to simply condense all those "race's power" feats into a "get your race's power, use it or Rev's power", instead of the same thing over and over again...

Also, Unnatural Vitality only works for one round?  It says "until you attempt your first death saving throw", which means you get one standard action extra...compared to the other UV feats, it would make more sense to say "until you fail your first death saving throw"...hopeful it's a typo...

I agree, some of the feats really should have been racial traits to start with.  I think I might give players a  free racial feat if they wanted to use this.  Otherwise, I do like it, the flavour is quite nice.  Just not sure its a great option, compared to other races.


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## Leatherhead (Jun 15, 2009)

Rechan said:


> First of all, I don't like the Dex/Con. Maybe it's just showing my frustration with classes and races keying into very narrow ability score necessities, but I just don't like it. I was really hoping for Con/Int. Or Con/Wis (Considering their connection to the raven queen; Avengers/Clerics). Namely because there are only 2.5 classes (Rogue, Monk, half of the ranger), maybe a 3rd (Assassin) that use Dex as a primary. There is only _one_ class, with only *half* of its builds, that key off Con (Infernal and Vestige warlock), and those pacts do not jive with the race's fluff. And If these guys are so important to the Raven Queen, then why are they all suited for Warlocks and Rogues, not anything even remotely related to the RQ?




With any luck, this will lead to the development of more classes that use Dex or Con as a primary stat. They are sorely needed (especially Con) even if the revenant used different stats.

But anyway, I think the revenant should have more of a template feel. The feats seem kind of shoe-horned in so that they have an option to resemble what they are supposed to have been, unfortunately it ends up being a sort of feat tax. Perhaps giving them a free feat that can only be used on revenant racial feats would help?


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## alleynbard (Jun 15, 2009)

I want to like it.  I think the fluff is interesting.  The ED is fantastic and I have great ideas for an NPC Free Soul.  

But I am not sure how I feel about the mechanics.  They seem....solid enough.  I don't know.  They don't light me on fire. I have some of the same reactions as Rechan. There is a Raven Queen follower in my game who refuses to be raised from the dead. This seemed like it was going to be a good way to give her an out if her character ever died. I think I can re-work the race a bit to fit my vision of the revenant, but I wouldn't suggest the option as it stands right now.

It isn't terrible, but I am not impressed. Especially after all that build-up.

My major complaint in that article is the mass of wasted space in the feat section.  We didn't need a friggin' feat for every racial power.  As hvg3akaek stated, one feat would have been appropriate. While it won't be difficult to create new feats of this kind when new races are released, why do I need to do that when a simpler method that took future releases into account could have been implemented?  The way it is presented right now irritates me.


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## Asmor (Jun 15, 2009)

GMforPowergamers said:


> I don't dislike it...
> 
> but after all the build up, I feel it is only OK. I mean really it is cool, but it would have fit in PHB3 as just another race easy...




Sums up my feelings perfectly.

In particular, I thought the racial power was rather disappointing. Not bad at low levels, but practically useless at higher levels. The damage should really scale up.

I also thought the article was very poorly developed, e.g. there's no specific limitation stopping you from taking multiple soul feats. There's also the whole thing with the paragon path's conflicting description of the ability score choice.

That said, there was some cool stuff in there. I like the inclusion of the Warforged soul feat, as that's not something I would have thought of and gives me some inspiration. The flavor for the epic destiny's really cool.


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## Cadfan (Jun 15, 2009)

I think my biggest problem is that I just can't figure out what to _do_ with them.  Maybe I'll like them more once Shadow is a power source.


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## Fallen Seraph (Jun 15, 2009)

Personally I like it cause it serves as a very good flavour and variety race. I can quite easily see these guys popping up in various different refluff formats in my campaigns, especially given that they can be any race.


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## Cadfan (Jun 15, 2009)

How about this to bring them in line with other races:

1. Chill of the Grave is free.  Necrotic is too easily resisted.
2. Death's Blessing is free.  Its kind of a lame feat, and mostly serves as a gateway to other choices.

With those changes I'd play it.

I don't think the damage from Dark Reaping necessarily has to scale faster.  It does grow less important as you go up in level, but so do powers like Infernal Wrath.  And there's certainly enough feat support to let you grow Dark Reaping into something really useful: the temp hit points, the +2 attack, the feat for increased damage, etc.


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## Grydan (Jun 15, 2009)

Asmor said:


> I also thought the article was very poorly developed, e.g. there's no specific limitation stopping you from taking multiple soul feats.




There's the basic limitation of prereqs: you're only ever going to count as Revenant and one other race, so you can't qualify for multiple soul feats, except where they've intentionally given a race more than one.

As far as the complaint others have made about the soul feats taking up so much room instead of being combined down to one: note that the only race from a PHB that _doesn't_ have a soul feat is Deva, which is consistent with the idea that Devas don't die the same way other races do.


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## Rechan (Jun 15, 2009)

Cadfan said:


> How about this to bring them in line with other races:
> 
> 1. Chill of the Grave is free.  Necrotic is too easily resisted.
> 2. Death's Blessing is free.  Its kind of a lame feat, and mostly serves as a gateway to other choices.
> ...



I could tolerate it with those adjustments. 

Although I do wonder what not being a living person means, rules wise.


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## RefinedBean (Jun 15, 2009)

Grydan said:


> As far as the complaint others have made about the soul feats taking up so much room instead of being combined down to one: note that the only race from a PHB that _doesn't_ have a soul feat is Deva, which is consistent with the idea that Devas don't die the same way other races do.




Nothing stops a player from choosing Deva as the Rev's Past Life, though...feels to me like it's a stupid omission.  Warforged, but no Deva?


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## GMforPowergamers (Jun 15, 2009)

RefinedBean said:


> Nothing stops a player from choosing Deva as the Rev's Past Life, though...feels to me like it's a stupid omission.  Warforged, but no Deva?




Deva souls reincarnate...it should be assumed deva is not ment to be a reverant...although not stopped if the PC wants to


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## Jack99 (Jun 15, 2009)

The Half-Dead by One Bad Egg wins hands down IMO. I do not see my self using the revenant, except perhaps transporting some of the fluff.


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## RefinedBean (Jun 15, 2009)

GMforPowergamers said:


> Deva souls reincarnate...it should be assumed deva is not ment to be a reverant...although not stopped if the PC wants to




I figured since the Devas reincarnate, they have even more of a chance to gain the RQ's attention.  She could promise them a "quick" release from their immortality if they accomplish something in this lifetime.  Or, she saves a fallen Deva from becoming a Rakshasa by giving him/her one last chance at redemption.

I mean, there's just as many reasons for a Deva to become a Revenant as there are for a Warforged, i.e. very few.

Not a huge deal, really, it just seemed stupid to me.  They already went crazy with those "soul" feats, what's one more?


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## Baumi (Jun 15, 2009)

It seems interesting, especially if you like a Crow-like Adventurer. 

But it's not flexible enough if you want to play it after a character died, because the fixed Attributes might suck for your class and many Feats, Powers and even some special Items will be useless, which might destroy your whole concept.


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## CardinalXimenes (Jun 15, 2009)

I think people are selling Unnatural Vitality way too short. Consider what happens every time you drop below 0 HP- you go prone and you drop what you're holding. Some class abilities might well turn off too, like Swordmage Aegis. Even if the healer smacks you immediately thereafter with a healing effect, you still have to spend a move action standing up and probably a minor to pick up your gear- assuming your enemies haven't snatched it up away from you while you're lying there bleeding out.

Revenants don't have to deal with that. Give them a bandolier of cheap healing potions, and the only possible way to put them down is to either take them from positive to -half HP before they get a chance to act or run them completely out of healing surges. Let them take the "use a minor as well as a standard while Unnaturally Vital" feat, let them grab a minor-action source of healing, and getting pounded into the negatives won't even break their stride. Moreover, enemies will keep pounding on the revenant because he's still standing up, and every point of damage they do to him in the negatives will be wasted the minute he gets a surge.

Combine it with their paragon path's "Unkillable" level 16 ability, and every revenant gets an absolutely obscene amount of effective temporary hit points, because it doesn't matter how deep they are in the negatives when they get a healing surge. Instead of worrying about healing them when they get bloodied, you start to worry about healing them when they _go negative_... and the revenant operates at 100% until the minute they keel over dead.

Personally, I really like the feel of this race. Unnatural Vitality turns them into high-quality zombie unstoppables, the sort you have to hack to pieces before they stop coming at you. With that in mind, I think Con/Dex is a perfect fit for the "living corpse animated with the awfulest livelieness" thing they've got going.


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## CelticMutt (Jun 15, 2009)

Rechan said:


> Second, this race _should_ have Necrotic resistance. Deva gets both Radiant and Necrotic resistance, Fire Genasi and Tieflings get Fire Resistance. The Revenant has to spend _two_ feats just to get to the Resist Necrotic. As it stands, Deva are better hunters of the undead than a race created by the Raven Queen, hater of undead!




As the very existence of the Revenant, as well as pretty much every single source on the RQ other than PHB1 says, Queenie does not hate undead.  That is a purely player based misconception built off limited (at the time) info that become the popular but inaccurate view.  The truth is that she only hates undead that don't follow her.  She's a jealous and possessive goddess!


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## filthgrinder (Jun 15, 2009)

I wonder if this race isn't OMGWTFBBQ!?!?! powered, because it is DDI exclusive and not in published books. They probably decided to be conservative on this race's mechanics so people don't start the bitching and moaning about how subscribers get over powered races and what not. 

I think the article is pretty high on fluff and story ideas. The fact they aren't the DEFACTO choice for a class means we avoid seeing tons of forum posts of people claiming to be non-DDI subscriber GMs and having to deal with players who want to play in their games with some over-powered min-maxed race/class combo that isn't available to him, blah blah blah.

I think it looks pretty cool. It may not be a "go to" race for power gamers, but it's pretty neat.


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## Moon_Goddess (Jun 15, 2009)

CelticMutt said:


> As the very existence of the Revenant, as well as pretty much every single source on the RQ other than PHB1 says, Queenie does not hate undead.  That is a purely player based misconception built off limited (at the time) info that become the popular but inaccurate view.  The truth is that she only hates undead that don't follow her.  She's a jealous and possessive goddess!



My favorite kind.



My question, is what's wrong with a feat tax?   

I was under the impression that a feat tax was a feat every player regardless of race or class will wind up taking.  Effectively setting the number of available feats down by one.

If a certain effect fits a races concept but the race would be overpowered to have it, then shouldn't they pay for that somehow?   The's got to be some sort of exchange, and feats seem to be the perfect thing to exchange, other races get better abilities through feats.

Everytime I read the words feat tax in this thread it comes across as "I want this ability but I think I should get it for free"  and if we think the race is underpowered that may be true.   But if the race is no underpowered then their is nothing wrong with a feat tax to give it more power.   You've got to pay something.


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## Squizzle (Jun 15, 2009)

It beggars belief that this is not a +wis race. I must also sadly agree with Rechan's assessment that the race is notably underbalanced; the option is "What racial feat do I take to be on par?", not "Should I take a racial feat?". I mean, it's nice to have options, but this is the option to pay your tax in gold _or_ silver.


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## Klaus (Jun 15, 2009)

If my human Raven Queen-worshipping rogue/warlock ends up dying and I ask for him to come back, I'd rather take the Shadar-Kai mechanics than the Revenant ones.


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## Cadfan (Jun 15, 2009)

DarwinofMind said:


> My question, is what's wrong with a feat tax?
> 
> I was under the impression that a feat tax was a feat every player regardless of race or class will wind up taking. Effectively setting the number of available feats down by one.



Well, there's no central dictionary of the internet.  But the general use of the term "feat tax" means "a feat you have to take in order to be as good as other races or classes who aren't required to take the feat."

This does get muddled at times with feats that are so good that everyone takes them.


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## Moon_Goddess (Jun 15, 2009)

Cadfan said:


> Well, there's no central dictionary of the internet.  But the general use of the term "feat tax" means "a feat you have to take in order to be as good as other races or classes who aren't required to take the feat."
> 
> This does get muddled at times with feats that are so good that everyone takes them.



Well then in this case I'm gonna have to disagree that this is a feat tax, 

Becuase I do not see the race as underpowered they just have some extra options they can pay feats to get. 

That's what feats are for.


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## Dausuul (Jun 15, 2009)

Interesting. This may be the only time I've seen one of these "quasi-races" and liked it. (By "quasi-races," I mean, "races where people really want to play X but the designers can't think of a way to make it balanced so they give you an X wannabe race that's basically a human in an X suit." Dragonborn, dhampyrs, warforged, etc.)

Revenants are undead wannabes, of course, but they're also a nifty solution for those of us who dislike standard cheap D&D resurrection yet still want a way to bring back beloved and/or plot-centric PCs. With revenants, we have the perfect mechanic for a variant form of resurrection, wherein you do get to come back... but you come back _wrong_.

As far as the race mechanics go:


*Dex/Con:* Weird choice, but I can sorta see it. Revenants are supposed to be unnaturally tough, and stealth is appropriate. Unfortunately, it severely limits their options. There are only 2.5 classes that use Dex as primary (rogue, monk, and half of ranger), and Con is of course the red-headed stepchild of stats with only half a class. On the other hand, revenants do get access to the "compensatory" racial feats like Hellfire Blood that make up for stat deficiencies.
*Dark Reaping Racial Power:* Bleh. I say again, bleh. Effectiveness mediocre, evocativeness zero. Do we really need yet another "Look, Ma, more damage!" power?
*Unnatural Vitality:* Now this is a good ability! I think people are underestimating the value of this, especially for a revenant defender. What it means is that you never have to lose a round to being dropped to zero; if you go negative, and your turn comes up before the cleric has a chance to lay some healing on you, you still get to act. Every 4E fighter and paladin I've ever seen would kill for that. Now if only we had a Con-based defender class...
*Heroic Feats:* The fact that you can get your old racial power back somewhat redeems the lame-ass revenant racial power, although I agree with those who say it's a bit of a feat tax. (And I'm very sad that there's no way to get the tiefling _bloodhunt_ ability back.) Death's Quickening looks lame but is actually almost insanely good, because it lets you get a minor action which you can use to _heal yourself_, while still using the standard action to attack. Most of the other heroic-tier feats are so-so at best.
*Paragon/Epic Feats: *Reaping Burst and Reaper's Strike actually make Dark Reaping useful. Death Scorned and Unnatural Stamina are solid. The epic-level feats are all very nice.
*Avenging Haunt Paragon Path:* Most of this PP is nothing to write home about, but the 12th-level utility power is made of win. I would take this paragon path just for that one power.
*Free Soul Epic Destiny:* The fluff is so-so, the mechanics are blah. Nothing about it screams "I AM AWESOME INCARNATE!" the way a good epic destiny should.
Overall, seems like a decent race to me, with some flaws. Will have to play around with it a bit before making a final judgement. Just looking at it, though, I'd say the "get your old racial power back" feat should come free of charge; Dark Blessing, Reaper's Resistance, and Resilience of Death should be combined into one or at most two feats; and Dark Reaping should let you take your second wind instead of getting bonus damage.

I kinda want to play a revenant fighter now. Get a flame weapon and _hellfire blood_ to make up for the lack of a Strength bonus, perhaps.


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## Asmor (Jun 15, 2009)

CardinalXimenes said:


> I think people are selling Unnatural Vitality way too short. Consider what happens every time you drop below 0 HP- you go prone and you drop what you're holding. Some class abilities might well turn off too, like Swordmage Aegis. Even if the healer smacks you immediately thereafter with a healing effect, you still have to spend a move action standing up and probably a minor to pick up your gear- assuming your enemies haven't snatched it up away from you while you're lying there bleeding out.
> 
> Revenants don't have to deal with that. Give them a bandolier of cheap healing potions, and the only possible way to put them down is to either take them from positive to -half HP before they get a chance to act or run them completely out of healing surges. Let them take the "use a minor as well as a standard while Unnaturally Vital" feat, let them grab a minor-action source of healing, and getting pounded into the negatives won't even break their stride. Moreover, enemies will keep pounding on the revenant because he's still standing up, and every point of damage they do to him in the negatives will be wasted the minute he gets a surge.
> 
> ...




Wow, that's a great point. I'd been thinking that the feature was reasonably nice, but you make some great points. Particularly the negative HP healing thing, which I hadn't even considered.

Yeah, this race is actually really, really powerful. A Revenant Paladin w/Warforged Soul would be all but unkillable... A nice, high hit point total means a nice, low death threshold. Lay on Hands and Warforged Resolve both provide minor action healing (in the latter case, you are still bloodied when you're in the negatives, so it also heals you in addition to temp hp), Paladins just don't run out of healing surges, and you've still got second wind and other party members to back you up after you run out of those.


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## Drkfathr1 (Jun 15, 2009)

Heh, so far I'm glad the exclusive has turned into such a dud. Makes those of us who don't subscribe feel better! 

Now I don't feel like I'm missing anything at all!


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jun 15, 2009)

I don't think that Dex and Con are bad choices for ability scores. A lot of classes can benefit from a high Dexterity and Constitution. Constitution feeds directly into your Healing Surges, Dexterity impacts AC and Reflex. Even if neither is your attack statistic, it's not too bad. Other ability scores are far more "situational". Of course, it is not the min-max optimum. 
Monks will use Dexterity as their attack stat, at least that's what the playtest does.

A Propos Healing Surges. Dwarven Revenant with Durable, Dwarven Durability and this new Revenant Feat for +1 Healing Surge will certainly have a lot of Healing Surges. You just need more ways to spend them.


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## Stalker0 (Jun 15, 2009)

I'll echo Rechan's sentiments, this one didn't do it for me.

Also on the ability scores, I wish they had gone with (+2 Dex, +2 Con....or the ability adjustments of your past race).

A lot of times I can see a character wanting to take on the old class they were in, and +dex, +con might be a big power down.

I do wish they had done....more with this race.


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## CubeKnight (Jun 15, 2009)

Stalker0 said:


> I'll echo Rechan's sentiments, this one didn't do it for me.
> 
> Also on the ability scores, I wish they had gone with (+2 Dex, +2 Con....or the ability adjustments of your past race).
> 
> ...



I was thinking something along the lines of +Con (for undead toughness), and +2 to one of the ability scores your past race had a bonus to, other than Con. So, a Dwarf Revenant would be +Con/+Wis, an Elf Revenant could be +Con/+Dex or +Con/+Wis, etc.


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## kenmarable (Jun 15, 2009)

Finally got a chance to read it, and I like it - mostly for the fluff. Although I have no problem with the crunch, it just doesn't stand out from other fun races as much as the fluff does for me.

I've been seeing on messageboards the obvious references to the Crow, but reading the part about memory flashes from your past guiding you, the movie that came to my mind was Memento. Seeing as how that is one of my all time favorite movies, that gives me a ton of fun ideas for a revenant PC. Maybe past life memories are elusive - they appear, but fade quickly, so you could even work in the tattooing side of things.

(Oh, and I also couldn't help but think of Nameless from Planescape: Torment as well. that seemed to be a good angle to use for inspiration if people wanted a different angle than emo-birdman.)

I would love to have a revenant PC in my campaign now and develop and elaborate mystery to their past life that unfolds over the campaign (and have it actually resolve more action-movie like Crow than drama like Memento without going into spoilers). I just love that idea of a past life mystery to solve for the PC and that's what struck me the most from the article.


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## Klaus (Jun 15, 2009)

kenmarable said:


> Finally got a chance to read it, and I like it - mostly for the fluff. Although I have no problem with the crunch, it just doesn't stand out from other fun races as much as the fluff does for me.
> 
> I've been seeing on messageboards the obvious references to the Crow, but reading the part about memory flashes from your past guiding you, the movie that came to my mind was Memento. Seeing as how that is one of my all time favorite movies, that gives me a ton of fun ideas for a revenant PC. Maybe past life memories are elusive - they appear, but fade quickly, so you could even work in the tattooing side of things.
> 
> ...



I'm not seeing Memento here. It's mostly The Crow meets Highlander (specially the Epic Destiny).

My biggest complain, though, is Baxa's art. I wasn't a fan of it back in Dark Sun, and I'm not liking it better now.


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## CelticMutt (Jun 15, 2009)

Dausuul said:


> As far as the race mechanics go:
> 
> 
> *Dex/Con:* Weird choice, but I can sorta see it. Revenants are supposed to be unnaturally tough, and stealth is appropriate. Unfortunately, it severely limits their options. There are only 2.5 classes that use Dex as primary (rogue, monk, and half of ranger), and Con is of course the red-headed stepchild of stats with only half a class. On the other hand, revenants do get access to the "compensatory" racial feats like Hellfire Blood that make up for stat deficiencies.





Assassin is pretty much guaranteed to be Dex primary too.  And for all we know it may have Con as a secondary.



> *Free Soul Epic Destiny:* The fluff is so-so, the mechanics are blah. Nothing about it screams "I AM AWESOME INCARNATE!" the way a good epic destiny should.



What?  The fluff is "you tell the gods and Fate to go f*** themselves, and they *have to* accept it."  How is that no the very definition of awesome?



Drkfathr1 said:


> Heh, so far I'm glad the exclusive has turned into such a dud. Makes those of us who don't subscribe feel better!
> 
> Now I don't feel like I'm missing anything at all!



Actually, it's one of the best articles Dragon has had since going digital.  It's as far from a dud as a nuclear explosion.


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## thecasualoblivion (Jun 15, 2009)

I think Revenant is going to be a non-obvious top tier choice, like Dwarf Fighters. Dwarf Fighters don't get a bonus to Strength, but get a pile of other stuff thats really good. 

It all keys off of Unnatural Vitality, which I believe really is that good. Its specific though, as it really aims the Revenant race at Strikers and Defenders. Its the one piece of sexy Revenants get, and a character who isn't a suicidal glass cannon  or a damage sponge isn't going to get much out of it. 

That being said, Revenant lines up at least moderately well with all seven striker classes:

Ranger--Con/Dex makes for a tolerable Str/Dex TWF, and TWF Rangers are glass cannons who will appreciate the unkillability. Also makes a beefy archer ranger

Rogue--Con/Dex makes for a nice and sturdy Artful Dodger, and if you don't mind dumping your Will Defense Brutal Scoundrel. Rogues are glass cannons, and Unnatural Vitality is great on a glass cannon.

Warlock--Con/Dex is a reasonably solid array for an Infernal or Vestige Warlock. The self-destructive tactics of an Infernal Warlock is made for the Revenant

Avenger--Con/Dex isn't a bad array for a Pursuing Avenger, but the added durability is overkill on the most durable non-Defender class in the game.

Barbarian--Con/Dex is a pretty solid array for a Rageblood Barbarian(use a Fullblade), and what Barbarian doesn't want to stay up when knocked to zero. 

Sorcerer--Con/Dex isn't a bad fit for a Wild or Storm Sorcerer. You can go 18/14/11 for 18Cha, 16Dex, 13Con which will get you where you need to go. 

Monk--Monks aren't really all that durable, so Dex/Con plus unkillability is a nice fit.


With Defenders, they don't line up as nice. Con/Dex isn't ideal for Fighters, but not a disaster. Wardens are a decent fit, and you'll have a better than average Reflex. Swordmages use Con but not Dex, so thats a so-so fit. Paladins you're pretty much SOL.


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## Dausuul (Jun 15, 2009)

CelticMutt said:


> What?  The fluff is "you tell the gods and Fate to go f*** themselves, and they *have to* accept it."  How is that no the very definition of awesome?




*shrug* And then what? It just seems like setting your sights a little low compared to things like "I become a legendary king" or "I become an archdevil" or "I become a freakin' god." Sure, you told the gods and Fate to go screw themselves, but what does that actually _mean_? What can you do now that you couldn't before, and that your buddy the newly ascended demigod can't do in five different flavors of cool?

This epic destiny seems rather like setting up a strawman in order to knock it down. Being free of Fate and the gods is only epically awesome if Fate and the gods were previously pushing you around like a piece on a chessboard - in which case, I can't imagine your experience playing the campaign has been anything but miserable. I guess this is the epic destiny for people with railroading DMs.

Plus, I think this territory is mostly covered by the Deadly Trickster epic destiny. Which also has cooler mechanics.


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## CelticMutt (Jun 15, 2009)

Dausuul said:


> *shrug* And then what? It just seems like setting your sights a little low compared to things like "I become a legendary king" or "I become an archdevil" or "I become a freakin' god." Sure, you told the gods and Fate to go screw themselves, but what does that actually _mean_? What can you do now that you couldn't before, and that your buddy the newly ascended demigod can't do in five different flavors of cool?
> 
> Plus, I think this territory is mostly covered by the Deadly Trickster epic destiny. Which also has cooler mechanics.



Well, there's also the part where kings, devils, and even gods eventually die.  The free soul exists til the end of time.  Or he gets bored.  Whichever comes first.

Maybe he gets bored and causes the end of time.


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## Dausuul (Jun 15, 2009)

CelticMutt said:


> Well, there's also the part where kings, devils, and even gods eventually die.  The free soul exists til the end of time.  Or he gets bored.  Whichever comes first.
> 
> Maybe he gets bored and causes the end of time.




That isn't stated in the text, nor do the mechanics support it. Many epic destinies have "If you die, you don't" mechanics, but this is not one of them. If you die, you're still dead. The text states that you _can_ live ten thousand lives, but so can gods, archliches, archdevils, and any number of others... if nobody kills them.

I agree that that could be an excellent epic destiny - the true immortal - but it ain't what we got here.


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## CelticMutt (Jun 15, 2009)

Uh, it does state that basically you don't die until you want to as part of the final destiny.  Sounds pretty true immortal to me.  And the mechanics plus their racial feats make it near impossible to fail Death saves.


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## Klaus (Jun 16, 2009)

I was thinking about the Revenants some more. While the fluff is good, the description of the race needs a bit more detail. Consider this sentence: "A revenant's visage has a maskilike quality that can be disturbing to normal mortals". What does that even mean? And then, there's also the contradiction on the eyes description (most are black with a red pupil, there are other colors but they all have a red pupil, then most lack an iris and pupil and some glow).

So here's my description for the revenants:

_Revenants are encased in a body not their own. No matter what race the revenant belonged to in its previous life, its spirit is now housed in a slim, pale body that is unnaturally resilient. Their eyes are usually solid black or white, and sometimes seem to glow with an eerie light when they are angered. Their hair ranges from white to raven black, and males can grow facial hair. Their hands and feet have harder skin, darkening to gray scales similar to a raven's, and their fingernails and toenails are matte black, again like a raven's talons.

Most intriguing of all is a revenant's face. Their skin has been likened to a hand-sculpted porcelain mask, almost without wrinkles or expression lines and lacking the constant twitches of a mortal's face. Also, all revenants have a passing resemblance to one another, as if they were related. The fact that revenants bear a passing resemblance to most depictions of the Raven Queen is not lost on them._


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## Drkfathr1 (Jun 16, 2009)

Wow Claudio, when is WotC going to hire you? 

Actually, I hope you continue to freelance for others, I'd hate to see WoTC take you in and brainwash you! 

Are you listening WotC? You guys still have fluff problems. What's the deal?


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## Ktulu (Jun 16, 2009)

I didn't really see a problem with the descriptions (though, Klaus, your's was nice, too).  To me, it's all about giving some basic inspirations behind decisions.  For my Revenant in an upcoming game he looks almost exactly as he did in life, except he's more gaunt and has a grayish look to his skin (Think almost black & white tv).  Aside from that, he's unchanged.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Jun 16, 2009)

I'm a fan of the fluff, but the mechanics kind of leave me cold.  Con and Dex are not good stats for any existing class.  Being Undead doesn't give you any advantages at all, but does carry some disadvantages.  The racial power isn't all that flavorful.  It just adds extra damage to an attack once per combat.

Maybe if assassin is a Dex/Con class it'll make up for it.  Still, they don't make a really GOOD race for any class, unlike every other race.  Which means they lack flavor in my eyes.


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## Dausuul (Jun 16, 2009)

Majoru Oakheart said:


> I'm a fan of the fluff, but the mechanics kind of leave me cold.  Con and Dex are not good stats for any existing class.  Being Undead doesn't give you any advantages at all, but does carry some disadvantages.  The racial power isn't all that flavorful.  It just adds extra damage to an attack once per combat.
> 
> Maybe if assassin is a Dex/Con class it'll make up for it.  Still, they don't make a really GOOD race for any class, unlike every other race.  Which means they lack flavor in my eyes.




I maintain they make awesome fighters. Pick up Death's Quickening and Quick Draw, stock up on healing potions, and become the Undead Energizer Bunny. For bonus points, be a former dwarf and get Dwarven Soul.


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## Caliban (Jun 16, 2009)

What's not to like about a race that counts as undead, is not resistant to Radiant damage (or somehow immune to Turn Undead type effects), and thus get's blasted by their allies Turn Undead (clerics, invokers, paladin's of Aumanitor or Kelemvor) during combat?


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## Rechan (Jun 16, 2009)

Caliban said:


> What's not to like about a race that counts as undead, is not resistant to Radiant damage (or somehow immune to Turn Undead type effects), and thus get's blasted by their allies Turn Undead (clerics, invokers, paladin's of Aumanitor or Kelemvor) during combat?



What makes you think that Turn Undead doesn't effect them?

All attacks that effect Undead effect Revenants (as they are both undead and living). The Turn Undead power says: Target: Each Undead Creature in Burst.


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## Klaus (Jun 16, 2009)

Rechan said:


> What makes you think that Turn Undead doesn't effect them?
> 
> All attacks that effect Undead effect Revenants (as they are both undead and living). The Turn Undead power says: Target: Each Undead Creature in Burst.



Er... he agrees with you.

Caliban said "what's not to like" about an undead pc race that isn't made to be immune to holy "friendly fire", as it were, from radiant spells and turn undead.


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## Rechan (Jun 16, 2009)

Klaus said:


> Er... he agrees with you.
> 
> Caliban said "what's not to like" about an undead pc race that isn't made to be immune to holy "friendly fire", as it were, from radiant spells and turn undead.



Oh. I read it wrong. My mistake.


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## Old Gumphrey (Jun 17, 2009)

Stalker0 said:


> I'll echo Rechan's sentiments, this one didn't do it for me.
> 
> Also on the ability scores, I wish they had gone with (+2 Dex, +2 Con....or the ability adjustments of your past race).
> 
> ...




Seriously. *DEX?* That's like giving dwarves +Cha, or elves +Con. Does. Not. Fit. Instead of +2 Dex/ +2 Con or previous race, I'd say +2 Con and +2 from one of your previous race's stats. So a dexy elf revenant could get +2 dex...but a clumpy dwarf revenant would have his +Wis, like he should.

So you can be a ranger (what?), a rogue, or an infernal warlock? Going purely on secondary abilities, they make great primal classes (what??). Also yeah, that friendly fire stuff is pretty awful. I wouldn't play this class as-written. It'd be like trying to play Orc out of the monster manual, but your only class options are wizard and invoker.


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## Vendark (Jun 17, 2009)

Old Gumphrey said:


> Seriously. *DEX?* That's like giving dwarves +Cha, or elves +Con. Does. Not. Fit.




Why not? They're not trying to hide the fact that The Crow was a major influence on the race, and the Crow obviously had an incredibly high Dex.


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## CelticMutt (Jun 17, 2009)

Vendark said:


> Why not? They're not trying to hide the fact that The Crow was a major influence on the race, and the Crow obviously had an incredibly high Dex.



Exactly.  It's not like  we're talking the shambling dead here.  There are plenty of undead stories of fast, agile undead.  Plus, with the focus on rangers, rogues, assassins, and (kinda) pursuit avengers and predator druids it's obvious the designers are going for a stalker/predator feel for the race.

Also, a number of their paragon & epic options involve becoming ghost-like, which has ties to Dex.


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## CapnZapp (Jun 17, 2009)

I don't get it.

Are you supposed to be able to continue your old character or what?
Isn't this race supposed to be an undeadish version of your old race?

If so, why is there a new set of +2 stats? Why doesn't your old race's bonuses hold true?

I mean, few existing characters will fit a con/dex scheme. (And this would be true for any static pair!)

Is the Revenant supposed to be a stronger race, then? To compensate for losing out on your primary stats, I mean? Wouldn't this then make a tailor-made Revenant too strong (if coupled with a class suited to con/dex).

If when you play a Revenant you're supposed to switch out BOTH your race AND your class, what's then left of your old character?

The "switch out one of your existing attributes for CON" idea makes much more sense to me - it would allow everyone to keep the bonus to their class' primary attribute (the one they paid through the nose to start with 18 upgraded into 20). Of course, humans would get a +2 CON in addition to keeping their old bonus (because now they're a non-human race it should be balanced for two attributes instead of one), possibly creating the game's only +4 bonus (to Con, that is).


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## CapnZapp (Jun 17, 2009)

And one more question:

*Why isn't this race associated with the Avenger class?* 

Seems like all the fluff is about avenge and divine missions...
...classes like assassins, rogues and warlocks (all very profane) to me would be the _last_ choice of somebody like the Raven Queen...?

Just confused...


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## Leatherhead (Jun 17, 2009)

CapnZapp said:


> And one more question:
> 
> *Why isn't this race associated with the Avenger class?*
> 
> ...




Honestly? I think that anchoring the revenant to the Raven Queen is holding it back. Undead, and especially half/quasi-undead, are supposed to be an anathema.  The Raven Queen's blessing is just a kind of stopgap in order to make them accepted in the game world instead of hunted down, much like how tieflings and dragonborn are shoehorned into society.

Stat changes are very easily defined as your old body and minds being rotted or degraded from death, and enhanced with whatever power is powering your unlife. I just wish that they had access to their old race powers by default in order to emphasize the "they were once something else" angle.


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## beverson (Jun 17, 2009)

CapnZapp said:


> I don't get it.
> 
> Are you supposed to be able to continue your old character or what?
> Isn't this race supposed to be an undeadish version of your old race?
> ...




My interpretation from everything I've read about the Revenant is that it's another race choice for a _starting _character, NOT a "template" for bringing back an existing character after death.  While it certainly could be used that way, I don't believe that was the designers intention. Of course I could be wrong.


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## Klaus (Jun 17, 2009)

beverson said:


> My interpretation from everything I've read about the Revenant is that it's another race choice for a _starting _character, NOT a "template" for bringing back an existing character after death.  While it certainly could be used that way, I don't believe that was the designers intention. Of course I could be wrong.



I agree with you there. The ads posit the revenant as a way of keeping your PC after death, but the article itself present a brand new race.

As for why the old race stats don't stay true, the article explains it in a way that isn't very clear, but which I surmised in my re-description of the race (above): _Revenants are encased in a body not their own. No matter what race the revenant belonged to in its previous life, its spirit is now housed in a slim, pale body that is unnaturally resilient._


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jun 17, 2009)

Klaus said:


> I agree with you there. The ads posit the revenant as a way of keeping your PC after death, but the article itself present a brand new race.
> 
> As for why the old race stats don't stay true, the article explains it in a way that isn't very clear, but which I surmised in my re-description of the race (above): _Revenants are encased in a body not their own. No matter what race the revenant belonged to in its previous life, its spirit is now housed in a slim, pale body that is unnaturally resilient._



I seem to remember that the article is very clear about this - the Raven Queen chooses a new body.


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## Klaus (Jun 17, 2009)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I seem to remember that the article is very clear about this - the Raven Queen chooses a new body.



Exactly. One of the sample revenant characters hints, an avenger, hints at having been a red dragon (taste of flame, feel of coins against scales), and is now hunting its slayers.


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## CelticMutt (Jun 17, 2009)

CapnZapp said:


> I don't get it.
> 
> Are you supposed to be able to continue your old character or what?
> Isn't this race supposed to be an undeadish version of your old race?




No.  Playing an undead version of your old character is an option, but it is not the default.  The default is you're any dead person brought back to unlife.



CapnZapp said:


> And one more question:
> 
> *Why isn't this race associated with the Avenger class?*
> 
> ...




Well, because they're being tied so heavily to the Assassin - which btw is a) no more profane than the Avenger (and neither is the rogue for that matter), and b) is 99% certain to be a Shadow class, and since RQ is from the Shadowfell ....


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## Wraith Form (Jun 18, 2009)

CelticMutt said:


> They're being tied so heavily to the Assassin - which btw is a) no more profane than the Avenger (and neither is the rogue for that matter), and b) is 99% certain to be a Shadow class, and since RQ is from the Shadowfell ....




Right.

They cannot release this class (assassin, I mean) fast enough, IMO.


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## socratesgonemad (Jun 19, 2009)

Anyone else notice that their ability boost is the same as the gnoll's?  I wonder if that means that gnolls will be primo assassins too.


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## yesnomu (Jun 19, 2009)

socratesgonemad said:


> Anyone else notice that their ability boost is the same as the gnoll's?  I wonder if that means that gnolls will be primo assassins too.



Also: kobolds.

I like the revenant a lot, as feat-intensive as it is to trick out. My one complaint is the ability score thing; I like the houserule where it's +2 Con, +2 to a score of your old race.


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## The_Fan (Jun 19, 2009)

Klaus said:


> Exactly. One of the sample revenant characters hints, an avenger, hints at having been a red dragon (taste of flame, feel of coins against scales), and is now hunting its slayers.



I now want to play a revenant warforged so I can go "I'm...meat!" *feels self, sniffs* "...bad meat."


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## Klaus (Jun 19, 2009)

The_Fan said:


> I now want to play a revenant warforged so I can go "I'm...meat!" *feels self, sniffs* "...bad meat."



"I'm a real boy. All I had to do was die."

[cue music] When you wish/upon a raven...[/cue music]


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## Phaezen (Jun 19, 2009)

Klaus said:


> "I'm a real boy. All I had to do was die."
> 
> [cue music] When you wish/upon a raven...[/cue music]




You'll end up like Eric Draven

Sorry, crit vs will...


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## Morrus (Jun 19, 2009)

Klaus said:


> _Their hands and feet have harder skin, darkening to gray scales similar to a raven's__._




The ravens in Brazil have _scales_?  Now that's scary!


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## Moon_Goddess (Jun 19, 2009)

The skin on the legs and feet of birds is scalelike.   And if we wanted to get really technical feathers are a form of modified scales.


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## Klaus (Jun 19, 2009)

Morrus said:


> The ravens in Brazil have _scales_?  Now that's scary!



We barely have ravens. Instead we have caracaras:

Caracara - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Ktulu (Jun 19, 2009)

The Caracara Queen lacks some oomph, does it not?


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## Hellzon (Jun 19, 2009)

Rechan said:


> Past Life is cute, but ultimately leads to feat tax. Most racial feats boost that race's racial power. For the Revenant to qualify for _those_ feats, it needs a "Get the Race's racial power" feat. And _then_ they have to decide between using the Revenant's racial power OR the Past Life racial power. Beyond feats, there aren't that many racial PPs/ED to begin with, so meh.




I felt it looked weak too, but my first thought when seeing Past Life was "Whee, Action Surge!" Or whatever the great human feat is.

Lost in the Crowd and Underfoot (both halfling feats) look good too and give me visions of a cheerful halfling coming back from death as Mr. Bilbo Grimdark von Reallygrim.



kenmarable said:


> I've been seeing on messageboards the obvious references to the Crow, but reading the part about memory flashes from your past guiding you, the movie that came to my mind was Memento. Seeing as how that is one of my all time favorite movies, that gives me a ton of fun ideas for a revenant PC. Maybe past life memories are elusive - they appear, but fade quickly, so you could even work in the tattooing side of things.




My first thought was of the Man With No Name from Sergio Leone's movies. And anyone thinking I just dated myself will be dead wrong.


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## Klaus (Jun 19, 2009)

Hellzon said:


> I felt it looked weak too, but my first thought when seeing Past Life was "Whee, Action Surge!" Or whatever the great human feat is.
> 
> Lost in the Crowd and Underfoot (both halfling feats) look good too and give me visions of a cheerful halfling coming back from death as Mr. Bilbo Grimdark von Reallygrim.
> 
> ...



Hmm... Revenant (Human) Rogue/Crossbow Sniper/Dark Wanderer with the Two-Fisted Shooter feat?

Awesome!


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## Shroomy (Jun 20, 2009)

Revenants can also get access to those pretty good racial weapon training feats.


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