# Wizard vs. Monk...Winner?



## tylermalan (Oct 19, 2005)

Alright, just to point it out right away, I remembered this because I was checking out this, which was about which classes were underpowered.  Needless-to-say, I didn't get very far in reading it before I thought to talk about the following subject because I was astounded at how many people thought the monk was underpowered!  It made me remember back to this original disagreement that was had among my first (and only significant) D&D group a couple of years ago, and I wanted to see what you all thought.

The argument was this:  *Which would win in a duel-type fight, a level 20 Monk or a level 20 Wizard, both with money to spend proportionate to their level* (which was something like 700,000 gold according to the DMG, I think)?

I said the Wizard would win.  A few others agreed with me, but most of my group, which included one guy in particular that didn't game with us that regularly and whom I wasn't too fond of, said the Monk would win.  

My point was simple: the power of a level 20 Wizard spell-wise is just too devastating, and barring horrible rolls on the part of the Wizard and phenomenal rolls for the Monk, the Wizard would be almost unbeatable (not to mention magic items that got the Wizard's save DCs up to like 38, forcing a level 20 Monk to roll an 18+ to save or something).  Granted, the Monk can have magic items too, but I didn't think it would matter really, as I was envisioning a Hasted Wizard with Time Stop and lots of "put these direct damage spells in place to all go off when time stop ends, so that even if he has incredible rolls, he will inevitably take tons of damage while I'm quite the distance away already", and since I would have multiple Time Stops memorized, I could do it multiple times.  

The only real point that I can remember that this other guy had was some exploit with magical shurikens, something about being able to throw an infinite number of them per turn, in addition to them coming back to him, which I never really looked into.  He seemed pretty sure about it though.  But come on, its an exploit!  Right?!  This argument may have been had in 3E also, not 3.5, but I don't remember.  He also basically said that a Monk's speed and abilities would allow him to get within melee range of a Wizard, and then it would be "over", due to the Wizard's low AC and HP.

The argument, which lasted weeks, ended in a kind of draw, where we both couldn't agree on conditions such as surprise, who would be able to go first, the environment, and primarily, at what distance they would start the duel at. 

Oh and also, I ALWAYS wanted to actually HAVE the duel, you know, talk with our fists, so I made the Wizard and he made the Monk, but he would never do it, because he REALLY didn't want to be shown that he was wrong.

So what do you guys think?  What would happen?  Why do people think Monk's are overpowered, when I always thought they were one of the single best stand-alone classes?

And for the record, my Wizard's name was Fizdabulous, and he was totally dabulous.


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## Storm Raven (Oct 19, 2005)

tylermalan said:
			
		

> Alright, just to point it out right away, I remembered this because I was checking out this, which was about which classes were underpowered.  Needless-to-say, I didn't get very far in reading it before I thought to talk about the following subject because I was astounded at how many people thought the monk was underpowered!  It made me remember back to this original disagreement that was had among my first (and only significant) D&D group a couple of years ago, and I wanted to see what you all thought.
> 
> The argument was this:  *Which would win in a duel-type fight, a level 20 Monk or a level 20 Wizard, both with money to spend proportionate to their level* (which was something like 700,000 gold according to the DMG, I think)?
> 
> I said the Wizard would win.  A few others agreed with me, but most of my group, which included one guy in particular that didn't game with us that regularly and whom I wasn't too fond of, said the Monk would win.




In this sort of duel, it frequently comes down to who wins initiative. Once the wizard can leverage out a _time stop_ and rain down death, he's probably going to come away the victor. If the monk can get up on the wizard first and grapple him, he may be able to defeat the wizard (barring various "get away from this" options a wizard mey have prepared).



> _My point was simple: the power of a level 20 Wizard spell-wise is just too devastating, and barring horrible rolls on the part of the Wizard and phenomenal rolls for the Monk, the Wizard would be almost unbeatable (not to mention magic items that got the Wizard's save DCs up to like 38, forcing a level 20 Monk to roll an 18+ to save or something).  Granted, the Monk can have magic items too, but I didn't think it would matter really, as I was envisioning a Hasted Wizard with Time Stop and lots of "put these direct damage spells in place to all go off when time stop ends, so that even if he has incredible rolls, he will inevitably take tons of damage while I'm quite the distance away already", and since I would have multiple Time Stops memorized, I could do it multiple times._





It all comes down to what the wizard has memorized, and what items both has, which is why an abstract debate is of limited value. A poorly prepared wizard could be easily defeated by a well-prepared monk, and vice versa. In the middle, the wizard probably has an edge, but these things are so dependent on circumstance that a one-on-one duel is often a pointless endeavor.



> _The only real point that I can remember that this other guy had was some exploit with magical shurikens, something about being able to throw an infinite number of them per turn, in addition to them coming back to him, which I never really looked into.  He seemed pretty sure about it though.  But come on, its an exploit!  Right?!  This argument may have been had in 3E also, not 3.5, but I don't remember.  He also basically said that a Monk's speed and abilities would allow him to get within melee range of a Wizard, and then it would be "over", due to the Wizard's low AC and HP._





Inifinite shuriken? Not possible - you are limited by your BAB as to how many attacks you can make. Speed? It may be useful, but the wizard's spell ranges by the time he is 20th level are tremendous. Even if the monk got close, the wizard could _teleport_ or _dimension door_ away, never mind all of the other options a wizard might have availabale depending on spell selection.



> _The argument, which lasted weeks, ended in a kind of draw, where we both couldn't agree on conditions such as surprise, who would be able to go first, the environment, and primarily, at what distance they would start the duel at._





I think this answers your question - circumstances are paramount.


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## Deset Gled (Oct 19, 2005)

A battle of this type will probably come down to two rolls: initiative, and a save.  Whoever wins initiative will have the biggest advantage.  From there, all the monk needs is one successful stun, and all the wizard needs is one successful spell.


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## Lamoni (Oct 19, 2005)

Deset Gled said:
			
		

> A battle of this type will probably come down to two rolls: initiative, and a save.  Whoever wins initiative will have the biggest advantage.  From there, all the monk needs is one successful stun, and all the wizard needs is one successful spell.



Exactly.  I could see the monk easily winning before the Wizard got a turn.  Take the Sun school feat from complete warrior, abundant step to the wizard, and stun them.  Then follow up with a full round attack with another stun and lots of damage.

Now I know the wizard could do a lot on round 1 if they got the initiative, but since I have never played a wizard and haven't played a campaign past level 15 I have no idea what they would do.  Anyone care to elaborate?

Also, if you are interested I could whip up a 20th level monk and actually have a duel... if someone else wanted to moderate.  It might not belong in this same thread though, I don't know.


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## Merlion (Oct 19, 2005)

Ok several things.

One, a Monk's ability to defeat a wizard in a duel or not doesnt neccesarily say much one way or the other about wether the Monk class is underpowered or not, for more reasons than I care to go into. 


Now it is true, Monk is one of the few melee classes likely to really hold their own against a spellcaster, because of their saves (including Still Mind), evasion, spell resistance, and comparitively high Touch ACs. 

Despite this as has been said timing  and circumstances will have a lot to do with it. Especially things like who wins initiative, and what spells exactly the Wizard has handy, the terrain etc.


However, I do feel monks are a tad underpowered. It seems often to me that acting as a magekiller would be the only thing they'd be likely to truly excel at.


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Oct 19, 2005)

Lamoni said:
			
		

> Exactly.  I could see the monk easily winning before the Wizard got a turn.  Take the Sun school feat from complete warrior, abundant step to the wizard, and stun them.  Then follow up with a full round attack with another stun and lots of damage.




I think we should stick to the core rules. Otherwise the wizard gets to use _chain contingency_ and do something nasty to the monk without even needing to win initiative.

In fact, what if the wizard used _shapechange_, a core spell, to make himself immune to crits (and therefore stunning) before the battle even started? Or what if he used _moment of prescience_, a spell with a 20 hour duration, to get a +20 bonus to AC against the monk's first attack - monks already have a hard time hitting anything, and now they completely miss the wizard. The wizard then takes a 5 foot step, dimension doors 700+ feet away, then casts fly. At this point, the encounter is pre-ordained.

IMO, a core wizard will win more than three quarters of the time. Any 20th-level PC wizard will have a decent Fort save, or they wouldn't have made it that far. They have a fair chance of making that save even if the monk gets initiative and attacks first.


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## Thanee (Oct 19, 2005)

The wizard.

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Oct 19, 2005)

Lamoni said:
			
		

> Anyone care to elaborate?




You have a _Contingency_ up to teleport you a good distance away as soon as the monk gets/appears within 20 ft. or so.

Then you always have initiative. 

The only way the monk can win this is, if the 'arena rules' are set up to _vastly_ favor the monk. In any other case the monk will lose. 100% of the time.

Bye
Thanee


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## Rystil Arden (Oct 19, 2005)

The Wizard will almost certainly win.  

_However_, if the Wizard underestimates the Monk, he may wind up losing the fight.  Using anecdotal evidence:  The evil demonologist PC was looking for a virgin sacrifice to Grazz't and he came across a girl with one of those poles with two buckets, one on either end.  He was a 15th-level Wizard, and he didn't know it, but she was a 6th-level Monk.  He needed her alive for the sacrifice and he thought she was a commoner from her dress, so he started with a weak spell, with no real buffs up, and she smacked him upside the head with the bucket-pole several times and managed to kill him.  She was promptly sainted by the local church.


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## Storm Raven (Oct 19, 2005)

Merlion said:
			
		

> Ok several things.
> 
> One, a Monk's ability to defeat a wizard in a duel or not doesnt neccesarily say much one way or the other about wether the Monk class is underpowered or not, for more reasons than I care to go into.
> 
> ...




The main problem for the monk will be dealing with the mobility of the spellcaster. Most 20th level wizards will have _dimension door_, _teleport_ and _fly_, and many will memorize all three. If the wizard teleports enough distance away that he can then use _fly_ to get above the monk's abundant step ability (and the monk's caster level is only one-half his character level), the wizard can use various long range spells for which the monk will have no viable counter. Once out of the monk's retaliation range, the wizard can use his myriad of other spell options that avoid the monk's high saves, or don't need to deal with the monk's touch AC: _time stop_, _ice storm_, _true strike_ followed by _meteor storm_. Or he could just pound out lots of damaging long range spells and wait for the monk to miss a save: _delayed blast fireball_, _horrid wilting_ and so on.

The monk _has_ to close with the wizard, and _has_ to either grapple him or stun him. And he better hope the wizard doesn't have a _contingency_ in place that will whoosh him away.


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## Zimbel (Oct 19, 2005)

Thanee said:
			
		

> The wizard.



Seconded.

The only way a well-played core LV 20 Monk would win against a well-played core LV 20 Wizard is is the Monk could take the Wizard out before the Wizard got a chance to act (keeping the Wizard stunned is a theoretical way to do so). Barring sneaking up on the Wizard and coup-de-gracing them in their sleep (which a competant wizard could also likely avoid if desired), this is unlikely to happen.

Mind you, at very low levels, I'd favor the Monk, but here are how a few strategies would likely work:
1) Grapple the Wizard:
Wizard: Teleport away (say, home, or up 1/4 mile) come back a few rounds later (or 1 with time stop) fully spelled up. Blow the Monk away (unless the Monk is smart, and chose to hide really well).
2) Take the Wizard out round 1:
Wizard: if you don't have the HP to take a single large hit from a Monk, you're unlikely to have lived long enough to hit LV 20. Later in the round,  blow the Monk away.
3) Steal the spell component bag:
Wizard: Teleport to a major city. Buy another one. Teleport back, this time fully spelled up. A few minutes later, blow the Monk away (unless the Monk is smart, and chose to hide really well).
4) Stun, round 1. Continually stun until dead:
Wizard: Actually, this has the largest chance of working. The Wizard's fort save should give them a decent chance of saving, but well under 100%. The Wizard might not have a protection against this, and the Monk is likely to pierce any DR. A decent Wizard build by this level should have around +15-+16 Fort Save. The Fort save should be in the range of 24-26. this gives the Monk around a 48.5% chance of stunning (best case), and they should be able to pound on the Wizard until the contingency intervenes, the familiar intervenes, or the Wizard dies (assuing that the Wizard continues to fail saves every round). 

Caveat: I've never played a Wizard at this level (or a Monk) so I may be missing something. I have, however, played a Sorcerer at this level, who would essentially do the exact same things I described above.


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## Goolpsy (Oct 19, 2005)

a Monk made solely for a dual vs a wizard would have a chance...and a good one.
with improved evasion.. high saves.. some good items.. and he is untouchable from anything that allows a save.
Monks usually have a higher initiative first too...
And a monk got something called spell resistance.. that will make some of the wizzies spells fail.

But.. if you really wanted to powergame the wizard.. he would be dominating the battlefield.

i'dd say 60-40 in favor of the wizard


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## Lamoni (Oct 19, 2005)

In my opinion, if the wizard was prepared specifically for the battle with the monk, it would win the majority of the time, even when the monk won initiative.  If the wizard didn't prepare for the specific battle then I think they would still win more often, but the monk would win more than 50% of the time when they won initiative.  All in my opinion of course... and my opinion shouldn't count for much when I haven't ever played past 15th level.


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## Zimbel (Oct 19, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> The main problem for the monk will be dealing with the mobility of the spellcaster. Most 20th level wizards will have _dimension door_, _teleport_ and _fly_, and many will memorize all three. If the wizard teleports enough distance away that he can then use _fly_ to get above the monk's abundant step ability (and the monk's caster level is only one-half his character level), the wizard can use various long range spells for which the monk will have no viable counter. Once out of the monk's retaliation range, the wizard can use his myriad of other spell options that avoid the monk's high saves, or don't need to deal with the monk's touch AC: _time stop_, _ice storm_, _true strike_ followed by _meteor storm_. Or he could just pound out lots of damaging long range spells and wait for the monk to miss a save: _delayed blast fireball_, _horrid wilting_ and so on.
> 
> The monk _has_ to close with the wizard, and _has_ to either grapple him or stun him. And he better hope the wizard doesn't have a _contingency_ in place that will whoosh him away.



Even worse, a high-level Wizard can dramatically effect a Monk's mobility without affecting his/her own.

Minor points: 1) After getting Teleport, I'd be unlikely to prepare Dimension Door.
2) The Monk will still take damage on a made save with Horrid Wilting. It's the SR check that could be mildly annoying.
3) There's no intrinsic reason that the Wizard needs to remain in the same plane with the Monk.


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## Storm Raven (Oct 19, 2005)

Zimbel said:
			
		

> Even worse, a high-level Wizard can dramatically effect a Monk's mobility without affecting his/her own.
> 
> Minor points: 1) After getting Teleport, I'd be unlikely to prepare Dimension Door.
> 2) The Monk will still take damage on a made save with Horrid Wilting. It's the SR check that could be mildly annoying.
> 3) There's no intrinsic reason that the Wizard needs to remain in the same plane with the Monk.




1. It can still be useful to have a backup "get me out of here" option.

2. Mildly so - the monk's spell resistance will work on about half of the wizard's spells that allow for it. But I'm a 20th level wizard, I have spells to burn.

3. True.


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## Aloïsius (Oct 19, 2005)

I'm quiet sure there may be a mean to get some portable antimagic field....



The stun tactic is good, it is better with "freeze the life blood" and CDG. Or maybe that feat allowing you to blind your opponent. A blind wizard will have a hard time against a monk (he can of course teleport away).


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## Storm Raven (Oct 19, 2005)

Aloïsius said:
			
		

> I'm quiet sure there may be a mean to get some portable antimagic field....




Not in the core rules, and if there was a custom item it would be ridiculously expensive (probably an epic item).



> _The stun tactic is good, it is better with "freeze the life blood" and CDG. Or maybe that feat allowing you to blind your opponent. A blind wizard will have a hard time against a monk (he can of course teleport away)._





And return, healed, buffed, and ready to go. That's the problem for the monk in this scenario.


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## Sejs (Oct 19, 2005)

The one who goes first wins.


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## Klaus (Oct 19, 2005)

Like any other "Same CR" fight, this one has exactly 50% chance of going either way.

But you have to pit a wizard and a monk who DON'T expect to fight each other (i.e., average preparation for their level). A well-prepared character (one who knows what's coming) is worth a bump in CR.


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## IcyCool (Oct 19, 2005)

These duels pretty much come down to who wins initiative.

The moment you start throwing preps and buffs in like _Contingent Teleport_ or _Monk designed to kill wizards_, you'll generally have to favor the most prepared.


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## Aloïsius (Oct 19, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Not in the core rules, and if there was a custom item it would be ridiculously expensive (probably an epic item).



A scroll would be good for a rogue, however... It's a cross-class skill in 3.5 for all other class, IIRC ? 

[/i]


> And return, healed, buffed, and ready to go. That's the problem for the monk in this scenario.



So, "freeze the lifeblood" is the best tactic, I guess.


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## Storm Raven (Oct 19, 2005)

IcyCool said:
			
		

> These duels pretty much come down to who wins initiative.
> 
> The moment you start throwing preps and buffs in like _Contingent Teleport_ or _Monk designed to kill wizards_, you'll generally have to favor the most prepared.




On the wizard side I'm trying to go with reasonable options. Most 20th level wizards (in my opinion) are likely to have some sort of _contingency_ in place, and _teleport_ is a pretty common contingent spell. Most of the spells I've put forward as options are likely to be on the majority of wizard's spell lists, and many are likely to be prepared: 20th level wizards often prepare _time stop_, _meteor swarm_, _teleport_, and so on. Even _true strike_ is probably pretty common (to power high value touch attack spells).


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## Storm Raven (Oct 19, 2005)

Aloïsius said:
			
		

> A scroll would be good for a rogue, however... It's a cross-class skill in 3.5 for all other class, IIRC ?




Maybe. But this isn't rogue v. wizard.



> _So, "freeze the lifeblood" is the best tactic, I guess._





Probably, and it still doesn't have a great chance of succeeding.


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## tylermalan (Oct 19, 2005)

Alright then, a few things (some of which I forgot to mention in the beginning)...

One thing is that this debate WAS in only 3E, not 3.5.  I remembered this because of my second thing, which is that we agreed to only use the core books, so nothing from the Complete books (or rather, the 3E splat books) is allowed.

Psi, I never thought about the shapechanging thing to avoid the stuns, but that's a really good point.

Thanee, I love you.  Did I ever tell you that?  Concise, good stuff, which I also love.  But 100% of the time?



> However, if the Wizard underestimates the Monk, he may wind up losing the fight. Using anecdotal evidence: The evil demonologist PC was looking for a virgin sacrifice to Grazz't and he came across a girl with one of those poles with two buckets, one on either end. He was a 15th-level Wizard, and he didn't know it, but she was a 6th-level Monk. He needed her alive for the sacrifice and he thought she was a commoner from her dress, so he started with a weak spell, with no real buffs up, and she smacked him upside the head with the bucket-pole several times and managed to kill him. She was promptly sainted by the local church.




It was agreed upon that we would build our characters specifically to fight each other, including the purchasing of magic items and the memorizing of spells, which means that They both know what they'll be up against (except specifics like stats and items carried etc...), and they'll be fully prepared for the fight ahead of time.  This takes out a lot of answers that a few others have given as well.



> a Monk made solely for a dual vs a wizard would have a chance...and a good one.
> with improved evasion.. high saves.. some good items.. and he is untouchable from anything that allows a save.
> Monks usually have a higher initiative first too...
> And a monk got something called spell resistance.. that will make some of the wizzies spells fail.




I disagree with most of this.  While I agree that the monk would have a chance, I wouldn't go so far as to say he has a GOOD one.  Considering the evasion and saves argument, Fizdabulous' save DC was at 33-38 or something, requiring, like I previously stated, the monk to roll 18s to save against the level 9 damage stuff, which isn't likely to happen too often.



> The one who goes first wins.




I also disagree, I would say that the wizard still has a decidedly high chance to win even IF he loses initiative, while the monk's survivability drastically lowers if HE loses.  I also disagree with the "Same CR fight" post, 50% doesn't seem logical to me.

So let's do this, here's 2 examples, and you guys can tell me what you think:

1)  Everything I said above, where the wizard and monk are both built to fight each other, and are totally prepared on that day with everything they need.  In addition, they start on the Prime Material Plane 200 ft. away from each other, neither surprised.  Considering that initiative has NOT been rolled yet, who would win?

2)  Same example as above, but the builds are average - meaning the wizard has all the "typically good" spells in the book, and they both have magic items that just make them a "better wizard" or a "better monk" (as opposed to a wizard killer or a monk killer).  They start under the same circumstances.  Without going into a debate about which spells are the "typically good" spells and such, would the outcome be any different than the above example?

In addition to all this, I'm still wondering why so many people think Monks are underpowered, because even though I think the wizard would win in the above situations, I can't think of any other classes that would stand a chance one-on-one against a monk.


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## Zimbel (Oct 19, 2005)

Klaus said:
			
		

> Like any other "Same CR" fight, this one has exactly 50% chance of going either way.



CR is a rough measure of the resources that a party of 4 disperately-classed PCs of the same level (at one time, C/W/F/R was standard) would take to defeat that creature. For example, if the party and the creature were the same level, the party should need to expend roughly 20% of their resources.

The problem with using CR for this sort of fight is:
Each combatant has a fraction of the resources of a party, and are typically skewed heavily in certain directions (Wizards typically aren't good melee combatants; Monks aren't good spellcasters). If that combatant dosen't have the right resources to deal with this particular threat, then this threat will be comesurately more difficult for that combatant.

Monks typically don't have an effective way to shut down most of the combat ability of a Wizard if both are at high levels. Wizards do have the ability to shut down most of the combat ability of most Monks.

To think of it another way, a Huge Shark is CR4. It should be able to eat a LV 1 Fighter alive (literally). However, assume that the Shark is in a shallow tank, and the fighter is in a heavily fortified platform well above the Shark's ability to jump, with a quiver (or three) full of arrows.

Who wins?

If you think that this is an unfair analogy (since the monk isn't in a tank, and could dimension door out anyway), the problem is that the Wizard can effectively create a tank. Whether that's a forcecage, prismatic sphere, prismatic walls, walls of force, flying above the monk, teleporting in and out, casting then moving w/ improved invis, or simply leaving the prime material plane, the Monk can't do much about it - unless the Wizard never gets a chance to act.

Now, if you were talking about a LV 1 Wizard vs a LV 1 monk, my answer would reverse- the Wizard's only hope is a failed save on round 1; the chances are low that the wizard would get the second round to act.


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## Thanee (Oct 19, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> 2. Mildly so - the monk's spell resistance will work on about half of the wizard's spells that allow for it. But I'm a 20th level wizard, I have spells to burn.




Even a core rules only wizard can beat it 100% of the time, 80%+ without PrC (from the DMG).

Bye
Thanee


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## Zimbel (Oct 19, 2005)

tylermalan said:
			
		

> 1)  Everything I said above, where the wizard and monk are both built to fight each other, and are totally prepared on that day with everything they need.  In addition, they start on the Prime Material Plane 200 ft. away from each other, neither surprised.  Considering that initiative has NOT been rolled yet, who would win?
> 
> 2)  Same example as above, but the builds are average - meaning the wizard has all the "typically good" spells in the book, and they both have magic items that just make them a "better wizard" or a "better monk" (as opposed to a wizard killer or a monk killer).  They start under the same circumstances.  Without going into a debate about which spells are the "typically good" spells and such, would the outcome be any different than the above example?
> 
> In addition to all this, I'm still wondering why so many people think Monks are underpowered, because even though I think the wizard would win in the above situations, I can't think of any other classes that would stand a chance one-on-one against a monk.



1) Wizard, 100% (assuiming both are played and preped well). Even assuming that the Monk wins init, the Wizard would have an appropriate contingency to deal with that.
2) Wizard, 100% (assuming core). The Monk is simply too far to take out the Wizard round 1. Going beyond core, it might drop to 80% or so (with the possibility that the Monk could get init, and keep continual stun until death).

Finally, I'm curious as to why you think, for example, that a Sorcerer couldn't do the same. Or a well-crafted Cleric. Or a well-crafted Druid. I'm also curious why you think that a Monk has an advantage against, say, a Fighter.


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## Merlion (Oct 19, 2005)

> I can't think of any other classes that would stand a chance one-on-one against a monk.





Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Fighter, Paladin, Barbarian.

The only classes I'd say a Monk really had all that good a chance against would be Rogue, Bard, maybe Ranger, and maybe a Mage if the circumstances where right, as has been discussed here.


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## Rystil Arden (Oct 19, 2005)

Merlion said:
			
		

> Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Fighter, Paladin, Barbarian.
> 
> The only classes I'd say a Monk really had all that good a chance against would be Rogue, Bard, maybe Ranger, and maybe a Mage if the circumstances where right, as has been discussed here.



 It depends on if it's a crazy loony monk with the right PrCs.  Something like Monk/ShouDisciple/NinjaoftheCrescentMoon dual wielding martial weapons for a flurry can really slaughter things.


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## Merlion (Oct 19, 2005)

well, when I say "monk" (or any other class) I mean "monk" (or whatever other class). A mutlcclassed or prestige classed character isnt just a "monk" or a "whatever" anymore its a Monk/Whatever/Whatever.

Certainly prestige classes make a difference, but they to me are seperate.


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## Thanee (Oct 19, 2005)

tylermalan said:
			
		

> But 100% of the time?




I'm making a single assumption there, that both characters are build normally and not specifically for the purpose of fighting each other (i.e. no _contingent Antimagic Field_ items and similar nonsense, that you would _never_ see on an actual character).

I really don't see what the monk could do to win this. It's not even a contest between the two.

The monk is just target practice for the wizard at this level.

Touch AC, Saves, Spell Resistance, Speed, that all doesn't matter in the slightest. It doesn't help _at all_ against a well-prepared wizard, and _every_ 20th level wizard should be well-prepared for situations like this with multiple working strategies.

Stunning Fist is the only weapon in the monk's repertoire, that could cause the wizard modest headaches, but it's surely not enough to kill him, even if the monk will be able to employ it at all, which means getting past both initiative (a slight advantage for the monk here, as long as this remains core only without spell research, otherwise the wizard will win initiative a lot more likely) and the _Contingency_ spell, as well as a +30ish Fort save (including _Moment of Prescience_). How exactly should the monk do this!?

Bye
Thanee


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## tylermalan (Oct 19, 2005)

I also am referring to just a monk.  And I would think the Monk would be better agianst EVERY other melee class because of his abilities.  Dimension Door, Ethereal Jaunt-like thing, his mobility just seems to be way higher.

But I see what you're saying Thanee, I guess I'm just trying to figure out where my friend was coming from.  Now that I look at all the Monk abilities, he just doesn't have enough that would actually help him in combat, not near as many as I thought.  You don't think any magic items could possibly tilt the scales in favor of the Monk?


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## IcyCool (Oct 19, 2005)

tylermalan said:
			
		

> It was agreed upon that we would build our characters specifically to fight each other, including the purchasing of magic items and the memorizing of spells, which means that They both know what they'll be up against (except specifics like stats and items carried etc...), and they'll be fully prepared for the fight ahead of time.  This takes out a lot of answers that a few others have given as well.




Ah, then I'd say this fight will be a draw, with a slight lean towards the wizard if he gets initiative.

The combat will likely follow the whole, Monk whacks wizard, wizard's contingent teleport whisks him away, wizard can't find monk again.  If the wizard goes first, then wizard throws a spell or spells and hopes the monk didn't buy something to protect against them.  Provided the wizard picked a spell that the monk didn't purchase a defense against, the wizard will eventually get around to winning said duel.  Otherwise, *smack* *teleport* *smack* *teleport* etc.


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## Zimbel (Oct 19, 2005)

Merlion said:
			
		

> The only classes I'd say a Monk really had all that good a chance against would be Rogue, Bard, maybe Ranger, and maybe a Mage if the circumstances where right, as has been discussed here.



I'm not seeing Ranger (although I agree with you on Rogue & Bard - though a smart Bard given an action would Shadow Walk her/his body out of this combat, hire/charm a bunch of nice "friends", and then return).


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## Zimbel (Oct 19, 2005)

tylermalan said:
			
		

> I also am referring to just a monk.  And I would think the Monk would be better agianst EVERY other melee class because of his abilities.  Dimension Door, Ethereal Jaunt-like thing, his mobility just seems to be way higher.
> 
> But I see what you're saying Thanee, I guess I'm just trying to figure out where my friend was coming from.  Now that I look at all the Monk abilities, he just doesn't have enough that would actually help him in combat, not near as many as I thought.  You don't think any magic items could possibly tilt the scales in favor of the Monk?



Mobility is great. However, a Monk's mobility dosen't really compare well to:
1) A high-level wizard.
2) A high-level Sorcerer.
3) A Cleric with the Travel Domain. (starting around LV 7 or so)
4) A Druid (at almost any level, really).
5) a high-level Bard.

Also, mobility dosen't win duels. Death effects do. Effects that take out a combatant for a few rounds will. Plenty of damage does.

edit: Bard added.


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## Thanee (Oct 19, 2005)

tylermalan said:
			
		

> But I see what you're saying Thanee, I guess I'm just trying to figure out where my friend was coming from.  Now that I look at all the Monk abilities, he just doesn't have enough that would actually help him in combat, not near as many as I thought.  You don't think any magic items could possibly tilt the scales in favor of the Monk?




Sure, magic items can. There are mostly two things, which royally screw the wizard... _Antimagic Fields_ (but only if they are combined with grappling, which won't happen, if the wizard was built for this purpose specifically, since the monk would never get close enough *and* have the _Antimagic Field_ active at the same time; besides, the wizard wouldn't stand such a bad chance to escape from the grapple (because that would be one focus when the character is created) and then move out of the AMF and _quickend teleport_ into safety to launch the actual attack from there, against which the monk will be completely helpless) and _Mordenkainen's Disjunction_ (which doesn't really stop the _Teleport_ either), but both of which wouldn't be available to the monk in any reasonable setup.

And in an unreasonable setup, the wizard will just divine what will happen, what abilities, equipment and preparation the monk has ahead of time and then know exactly what to do to stop the monk. No contest, once more.

Bye
Thanee


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## KarinsDad (Oct 19, 2005)

tylermalan said:
			
		

> In addition to all this, I'm still wondering why so many people think Monks are underpowered, because even though I think the wizard would win in the above situations, I can't think of any other classes that would stand a chance one-on-one against a monk.




Sorcerer?


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## Nytewolf (Oct 19, 2005)

Noting the comment that this would be a 3.0 fight and not a 3.5 fight, any Wiz worth his salt is going to cast Haste first round and kick into spell overload. Really unless the monk can 1st round stun the Wizard its over. The Monks evasion and mobility will mean nothing versus a Wizard that starts firing off Fort save spells. Lots of horrid wiltings and disintegrates. Pitch in a Power Word Stun after the first solid spell hit and its over.


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## Zimbel (Oct 19, 2005)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Sure, magic items can. There are mostly two things, which royally screw the wizard... _Antimagic Fields_



Note that Antimagic fields also don't go through Prismatic Wall/Sphere


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## Zimbel (Oct 19, 2005)

Nytewolf said:
			
		

> Noting the comment that this would be a 3.0 fight and not a 3.5 fight, any Wiz worth his salt is going to cast Haste first round and kick into spell overload. Really unless the monk can 1st round stun the Wizard its over. The Monks evasion and mobility will mean nothing versus a Wizard that starts firing off Fort save spells. Lots of horrid wiltings and disintegrates. Pitch in a Power Word Stun after the first solid spell hit and its over.



Heck, going by 3.0 rules would be silly; that would give the Wizard far too many advantages and the Monk several nasty disadvantages. If, for example, the wizard was insufficiently spelled up, start out with Haste, Time Stop. That's 4-10 more spells that the Wizard can get off in one round. Heck, in 3.0 Using summons to kill the Monk becomes very feasible.


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## Arkhandus (Oct 19, 2005)

A low-level monk will generally mop the floor with a low-level wizard the majority of the time; but then, at low levels, there's always the chance Mr. Monk might fail a save against Sleep, at which point Mr. Wizard could walk up to him and deliver a coup de grace with a Shocking Grasp or something (possibly as part of an unarmed strike, taking penalties for nonproficiency and normal damage, since the monk's AC while sleeping is probably just 10, since he'd be lying prone while asleep and thus granting +4 to the wizard's melee attack roll).

At high levels (after the wizard gains access to Contingency), the wizard will almost certainly win every time.  No matter what the monk does, the wizard will probably have a Contingency up that teleports him away as soon as the monk gets too close or strikes him, even if the monk sneaks up or uses Abundant Step/Empty Body and has surprise.  Then the wizard just casts his defensive spells, plus maybe another and more offensive Contingency, and teleports back to demolish the monk with Time Stop and Finger of Death and stuff.

The 20th-level wizard, built to slay high-save enemies and resist most save-requiring effects himself, would probably look something like this in 3.0 using core rules; 3.5 or non-core would only complicate matters more and unnecessarily.  Human with the feats: 1 combat casting, 1 iron will, 1 scribe scroll, 3 great fortitude, 5 still spell, 6 lightning reflexes, 9 spell focus (evocation), 10 silent spell, 12 spell focus (necromancy), 15 spell focus (transmutation), 15 quicken spell, 18 spell penetration, 20 heighten spell.  Concentration skill checks would be through the roof, so no point trying to stop Mr. Wizard through grappling unless the enemy's a colossal dragon or something with massive Str and BAB, which a core monk most certainly would not be.  I'll assume, since 25 point buy results in rather lame wannabe-heroes, 32 point buy or equivalent rolls.  Base scores of 8 str, 14 dex, 16 con, 18 int, 8 wis, 8 cha.  Modified scores of 8 str, 20 dex (gloves of dexterity +6), 22 con (amulet of health +6), 34 int (5 increases from level advancement, +5 inherant from the appropriate tome, headband of intellect +6), wis 8, cha 8.  Cloak of resistance +5.  Total saves of +19 Fort, +18 Ref, +18 Will.  Spell save DCs would be 22 + spell level, and an extra +2 for the three spell focus schools (so total DC of 33 for each 9th-level evocation, necromancy, and transmutation spell).

His opponent: Human monk 20.  Only relevant feats for this comparison are Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Blind-Fight, Run, and Power Attack.  Stunning Attack may or may not help.  Base scores of 14 str, 15 dex, 15 con, 16 wis, 8 cha.  Modified scores of 14 str, 24 dex (gloves of dexterity +6, +3 inherant from manual), 24 con (amulet of health +6, +3 inherant from manual), 24 wis (5 level increases, +3 inherant from tome), 8 cha.  Cloak of resistance +5.  Total saves of +26 Fort, +26 Ref, +26 Will (+28 vs. enchantments).  Also wearing Winged Boots and a Ring of Feather Falling, just in case.  Chances of saving against the wizard's spells: against one of the wizard's best spells (DC 33), the monk will need a roll of natural 7 or higher, a 30% chance of failure.  Spell Resistance of 30 means the wizard, with Spell Penetration, will need to roll a natural 8 or higher with each spell in order to even force the monk into attempting a saving throw; so a separate 65% chance of the monk even needing to attempt a saving throw at all.

While the monk will only occasionally be affected by the wizard, he only needs to fail one save against a Heightened Finger of Death, Prismatic Spray, Disintegrate, or the like, and then he's dead.  The wizard will be able to Dimension Door or Teleport away each time the monk gets too close, and will likely have Stoneskin, Displacement, Mirror Image, Mage Armor, Shield, Shapechange, and such active anyway, so the monk's attempted attacks will be all but useless.  The monk will more than likely fail a save at some point while trying to grab or hit the wizard.  If he does manage to hit the wizard or get ahold of him, the monk may have a tiny chance of victory.  The wizard will likely resist or negate Stunning Attack or Quivering Palm due to Shapechange or simply his good saving throws (monk's SA or QP DC would be something like 27, so the wizard would only need a natural 8 or higher to resist, anyway).  The monk could always follow the wizard if Mr. Wizard goes ethereal, but the monk couldn't follow him if the wizard chose to Teleport or Plane Shift away.  The monk's Improved Evasion would hardly matter with all the wizard's save-or-die spells (and save-or-be-neutralized-for-far-too-long-some-other-way).

That said, the monk is the only melee class that would stand even the slightest chance against the Contingency-bearing wizard, if going only by the core rules (and as noted already, non-core material tends to just favor the wizard more anyway, unless you only allow non-core supplements for warrior-types).  Non-core, a full  Frenzied Berserker or Forsaker might very well be able to mop the floor with any wizard, but I'm not sure if that would always be the case.


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## Enamel_32 (Oct 19, 2005)

The group I play with has 20th level character tournaments to get sap the powergamer-ness out fo the normal campaign. The winner of the last tournament keeps his character... anyways...

I've found spellcasters to ber incredibly powerful, but I once created a fighter who could hogtie people as a free action in a grapple, from the justicar class. I owned the wizard so hard... point is, it's really up to the character design and the player's knowledge of the game mechanics.


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## Kristivas (Oct 20, 2005)

My ex-group from Florida and I actually had this debate and all spenk like 2 weeks playtesting little tournaments from level 20 monks and level 20 wizards.  We each got to make 1 of each.  It was PHB and DMG only.

There were 4 different 'arenas' and once a combat started, there was no leaving the 'arena' by any means.
The arenas were:
1.  A dense forest.
2.  A storm-ridden wasteland.
3.  A large crypt, maze-like without any traps or monsters.
4.  An "arena", with people in the stands and everything..  I think it was like 100' in diameter, easily the smallest of the 4.

When the encounters happened, we 1d4 to pick the arena.

Arena's 1, 3, and 4 were the ones where the monk had a chance.  1 and 3, they could do well hiding and get the drop on the wizard, stunlock, ect.  Didn't always work.

4 was half and half.  The wizard could fly overhead and rain spells and whatnot, but it was whoever won init here since they were not too far apart from each other when combat began.

In number 2, out of like 10-15 battles, only 1 is where the monk won.  When a wizard is in a big, wide open space and can do his thing, the monk can't even catch him.

I was the only one to get a kill in number 2, because my fight was the first one and no one was ready for what I'd had planned.

I asked the DM if I could have shruikens enchanted with silence and permenacy.  At first, he didn't really want to as he was unsure of the rules, but if I was willing to pay for the costs of the spells being cast and whatnot, then it was allowed.

When the fight started and I won init, I high-tailed it to get into range.  He casted some buffs or another on himself.  I threw shruiken the next round and he was pretty much laughing, til he found out he couldn't cast.  It was quick work at that point.  From then on, the other wizards were well-prepared and didn't let me get that one over again  

For the wizard I made, I had a conjuration-specialized wizard and he was a beast.  Well, not him, but the monstrosities he summoned.  In most fights, after using the ole flying carpet..  he didn't even get touched.  Just rained down fury while minions went on the attack.


Even if my friends and I didn't use the wizard to it's fullest, most of the wins were by wizards.  It was kinda staggering too, like 50-11.

What we figured out was:
1.  Skill of the player.
2.  Initiative.
3.  Terms of the battle (arena-type).

Otherwise, the odds favor the wizard by about 90-97%.

I did get 4 wizard kills, though!


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## Kristivas (Oct 20, 2005)

We did have a 'team' in one of our parties to take care of high level wizards that consisted of a sorcerer and a monk.  Any time we fought casting baddies, these 2 would take care of him and the rest of us would mop up the minions.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Oct 20, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> It depends on if it's a crazy loony monk with the right PrCs.  Something like Monk/ShouDisciple/NinjaoftheCrescentMoon dual wielding martial weapons for a flurry can really slaughter things.




Now, is that the errataed or un-errataed Ninja of the Crescent Moon?

I keep asking my group DMs if they'll let me play an unerrataed version (i.e. the one with full BAB and all good saves), and they keep saying no.  

Brad


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## Artoomis (Oct 20, 2005)

It depends upon:

Intiative
Preparation
Items

Either could win depending upon chance and choices made above.

A monk can have up to 11 ranks in Use Magic Device, right?  So he could use scrolls (albiet without a high chance of success) of up to 11th caster level (or up to 6th level spells).

Obviuosly how this duel would go is HIGHLY equipment-dependent.

A monk should, of course, be able by virtue of an item and be well-defended against magic.

Time Stop is kind of the great equalizer - along with Horrid Wilting.

Of course, it goes without saying that the monk is ALWAYS ready for the combat, the wizard not so.  An arena setting is not really a fair test of which character is "superior."


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## Fieari (Oct 20, 2005)

Have you guys forgotten Forcecage?  No save, no attack roll, just instant imprisonment... with bars even, so more spells can be cast.  How does a Monk have ANY chance?  If the Wizard gets even a single action (and grappling wont help... stilled Dimension Door is a staple of any reasonable wizard build) a forcecage'll go up, and then the Monk is dead.

A Monk would need to be decked out with scrolls up the wazoo to even start having a chance, and even then, the Wizard is still at a huge advantage.  It's almost like asking which would win, a level 10 wizard or a level 20 wizard.  Not even fair.


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## ZuulMoG (Oct 20, 2005)

Odds are the monk will have a higher initiative (Dex is key ability), and therefore go first.  Abundant Step and up to 5 Stunning Attacks (until a Fort save is failed) pretty much guarantees victory for the monk.  A monk also has great saves in all categories, and a high Dex and Wis to pump two of them even higher.  He also gets SR, which can completely negate a low-rolling mage's spells.

Too many advantages to the monk.

Circumstances can give the mage an edge, prep spells like Stoneskin will save him for a round or two, Fire Shield can make every attack costly, etc...but OTOH, the monk also gets that time, and can go Etheral, be Hidden and Moving Silently and therefore impossible to attack, etc...

Long range meetings mean nothing to the monk because of Abundant Step, Improved Evasion, and SR.  He'll simply chug along, carving through roughly two-thirds of a 20th mage's Long Range in one round.

Now if the mage spent a few thousand XP on Simulacra...


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## Fieari (Oct 20, 2005)

ZuulMog, explain how that can deal with Contingency Dimension Door + Forcecage?  Etherial doesn't help against force effects, remember.  A wizard needs only one action to win.  Contingency gives him that action.  That action can be used for Time Stop, and while in Time Stop, everything the Wizard needs is available.


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## ZuulMoG (Oct 20, 2005)

Time Stop is 9th level, even Greater Contingency olny allows 8th level spells.  Your weapon of choice doesn't exist.

Ah, Contingency-Dim Door.

Ok, but what stops the monk from Abundant Stepping out of the cage?  Or using some item to teleport?

Forcecage is not the end-all be-all.


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## Aust Diamondew (Oct 20, 2005)

I'd say 60-40 odds in favor of the wizard.

I remember in my old campaign a PC wizard (level 21) fought a vampire spell stiched monk (level 18 or so), in an arena type setting.  It was a good fight but the wizard won.  It was in 3.0 and disentegrate was instant kill against undead, which was sorta suprising given the villainous monks high touch AC (who have low fortitude saves due to no constitution scores).
It wasn't a battle the wizard should have got himself into or one he should have won, but he got a lucky touch attack, beat SR and the monk didn't have enough luck on his save.


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## Artoomis (Oct 20, 2005)

Fieari said:
			
		

> ZuulMog, explain how that can deal with Contingency Dimension Door + Forcecage?  Etherial doesn't help against force effects, remember.  A wizard needs only one action to win.  Contingency gives him that action.  That action can be used for Time Stop, and while in Time Stop, everything the Wizard needs is available.






			
				srd said:
			
		

> Boots of Teleportation
> Any character wearing this footwear may teleport three times per day, exactly as if he had cast the spell of the same name.
> 
> Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Wondrous Item, teleport; Price 49,000 gp;Weight 3 lb.




So much for Force Cage.

Contingency is limited to 6th level spells, so Dimension Door certainly works - as would teleportation, for that matter.

With preparation, the wizard likely wins.  Without, the monk likely wins.


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## dcollins (Oct 20, 2005)

Kristivas said:
			
		

> My ex-group from Florida and I actually had this debate and all spenk like 2 weeks playtesting little tournaments from level 20 monks and level 20 wizards.  We each got to make 1 of each.  It was PHB and DMG only...




Great stuff, thanks for posting!


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## Saeviomagy (Oct 20, 2005)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> So much for Force Cage.
> 
> Contingency is limited to 6th level spells, so Dimension Door certainly works - as would teleportation, for that matter.
> 
> With preparation, the wizard likely wins.  Without, the monk likely wins.



?? If you mean by "without preparation" that the wizard has no spells and is drained from a serious combat, sure - but I think you'll find that's pretty much the case no matter whom he's fighting. I think you'll find, however, that most wizards have a contingency on them as a matter of fact once they can cast it - it's an all-day, every-day sort of thing.

And whoever said "5 stunning attacks" really needs to check their rules. Stunning fist only works once a round.

I'd also like to point out that any non-wizard who can't fly and see invisible at 20th level is pretty much asking to be torn apart by the average high level challenge. I'd additionally expect every 20th level character to have some 'get out of jail free' card - a dimension door, etherealness, freedom of movement or something similar.

I think a well built and intelligently played wizard will win with almost a 100% success rate in an arena combat. Simply put - he is in a position to expend more resources on the combat, and expending those resources doesn't leave him dead.

Almost every other class has a great deal of resources that are not transitory in nature - a monk can't blow his unarmed combat damage all in one combat for extra damage, nor can he do so with his AC, movement speed etc. And if he blows his hitpoints on a fight, he's just lost

A wizard's class is almost entirely made up of his spells. He gets little in feats, no AC, no hitpoints, no skill points. Nothing to soup him up, except his use-them-and-lose-them spells.

In short - if a wizard blows 90% of his resources on a fight, he's out of spells but alive. His saves, ac, feats and skills are such a small amount of his class package that he's still got room for some hitpoints - he can sacrifice almost everything else and still have some left. If a monk does the same, he's out of stunning fists, abundant steps and most importantly of all - hitpoints. The remaining 10% of his class is his permanent bonuses that he cannot sacrifice in favour of hitpoints. So he's dead, and he loses.


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## Thanee (Oct 20, 2005)

ZuulMoG said:
			
		

> Abundant Step and ...




... your turn ends right there. Then the wizard kills you.

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Oct 20, 2005)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> So much for Force Cage.




Don't forget the _quickened Dimensional Lock_ coming along with the _Force Cage_. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Lord Pendragon (Oct 20, 2005)

I think there are a couple of things that heavily favor the wizard in an arena combat.

The first is, as mentioned by Saeviomagy, the fact that a wizard is a class of limited resources.  Over the course of the day, the monk is (theoretically) balanced against the wizard due to the fact that the wizard can't normally blow everything he has in one fight, and expect to be useful for the rest of the day.  He has to conserve his power so he can continue to contribute throughout the adventure.  In this state, he is (in theory) balanced with the other classes.

The arena breaks that, by allowing a wizard to throw everything he's got into a single battle.  In this scenario the wizard can bring a lot more firepower to bear than the monk.  The monk can't throw four encounters' worth of kung fu at the wizard.  The wizard _can_ throw four encounters' worth of spells at the monk.

Secondly, a wizard's spells are hindered by unpredictability.  If the wizard is going to be fighting a barbarian, or a dragon, he's going to prepare different spells.  In an adventuring scenario, there are almost always going to be spells that the wizard guessed in the morning would be useful, but turn out to be unnecessary or ineffective for whatever reason.  This, too, helps balance the wizard's capabilities.

The arena setup breaks that too.  The wizard's player knows what he's facing.  A single monk opponent.  This means that his entire spell load is going to be tailored to kicking a monk's behind into next week.  The monk, meanwhile, cannot tailor his abilities specifically to fight a wizard.  He can't trade in his _ki strike (lawful)_ for something else more suited to beating on wizards.

These points, taken together, lead me to believe that this kind of arena bout really doesn't say anything about class balance.  Yes, in a one-on-one arena matchup, the wizard is king.  But since I've never played in a game that consisted of nothing but arena battles, this comparison is relatively unrelated to the actual playing of the game.  An interesting exercise, but in the end relatively meaningless.







			
				tylermalan said:
			
		

> So what do you guys think?  What would happen?  Why do people think Monk's are overpowered, when I always thought they were one of the single best stand-alone classes?



I'm going to assume you meant "underpowered" in the above quote.  I think the main reason is the disparity between what the class does, and players' expectations of the class.  When people think of the monk, they think of Bruce Lee or Qui Chang Kane or even Jet Li or Jackie Chan.  In short, they're expecting someone who can put a serious beat-down on baddies, with a kung-fu flavor.

Instead, the class is built as a skirmisher/scout.  So when folks get to playing a monk, they find him extremely weak for what they want him to do.  In 4e, I'd really like to see the monk made into a prestige class based on the fighter.  Make it a frontline fighter class.  That's what people are expecting, and folks are going to continue to be disappointed so long as the class's function remains contrary to expectations and flavor.


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## Shadowdweller (Oct 20, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Not in the core rules, and if there was a custom item it would be ridiculously expensive (probably an epic item).



There's an easy, 100% core way for ANY class to get Antimagic Field up.  It's called a Ring of Spell Storing (Major).

Which basically means that ANY class is capable of taking down a wizard provided I) They can close with the wizard, II) Prevent the wizard from escaping nonmagically (grapple or trip for instance), and III) Depending on how possible contingencies work out/can be avoided.


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## Shadowdweller (Oct 20, 2005)

Lord Pendragon said:
			
		

> Instead, the class is built as a skirmisher/scout. So when folks get to playing a monk, they find him extremely weak for what they want him to do. In 4e, I'd really like to see the monk made into a prestige class based on the fighter. Make it a frontline fighter class. That's what people are expecting, and folks are going to continue to be disappointed so long as the class's function remains contrary to expectations and flavor.



 The monk has NEVER been anything other than a skirmisher-type class.  Not since it's inception in 1e.  The problem is that people see a high unarmed base damage and a high number of attacks and think "Oooh, this guy must be good at fighting."


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## Bryan898 (Oct 20, 2005)

I'd actually put it at a 60-40 in favor of the monk myself, but I'd use different tactics.

For the Monk:

If I were building the monk myself, I'd use my Empty Body ability to go ethereal first thing.  Then close with the wizard/ sorceror.

Next, I'd use Quiverring Palm instead of Stunning Blow.  I can't see why people are talking about Stunning Blow, when Quiverring Palm is the same DC but an instant death.  The Monk could just as easily have a DC 30 on this ability.  Fort or die wizard, and suddenly it's a game of initiative.

Saves need to be maxed... unfortunately Monk's have MAD.  Still with magical items, your saves should each be around 20+.  Invest in a scroll of Protection from Spells and Use Magic Device and possibly add +3.  Most wizard saves will be in the 21-30 range at this level, 34 tops if they dump everything into it.

For the Wizard:

As for the choice of spells most people are using for the wizard, they're not the optimal choice... check your ranges.  

Stoneskin is worthless since the Monk has ki strike (adamantite).  While Displacement and Mirror Image are better choices provided the Monk doesn't have an item that provides true seeing (which I would invest in).

Finger of Death is 75', easily within the 90' movement of a 20th level monk.  If he makes the save you could take a whole lot of hurt you can't afford with d4 HP.  

Force Cage is also close, while Dimensional Anchor has a ranged touch, and a Monk's touch AC at this level could be in the 30's.  You'd be better off chancing the monk's save vrs and instant death spell.

Horrid Wilting would possibly be the best damage dealer, and sure fire way to wear down the monk while keeping distance (1200 ft away Mwuhahaha!!!).  Now if only D&D didn't have -1 to Spot check for every ten feet putting you at a -120 Spot check...  The Monk could Hide without ranks, and run full speed and you'd literally never see him coming.... and you can't target what you can't see.

Contingency teleport eh?  Whenever he gets close?  So the monk closes.. you teleport away, then what?  Cast another contigency and another teleport?  Then you have to cast Another teleport to go back into the battle.  Roll init, and if you lose again, the monk can run 500 feet to get close (which he can do in a round), and your teleported again!  There goes four or more spells.  Not too mention a smart monk would immediately Hide when the Wizard disappears.  So when you return you have to find each other again (see the -1 to Spot for every 10 feet), so teleporting in 5,000 feet away will do you no good.

Time Stop- you can cast area spells and buffing spells, YAY!  Almost all area spells that are worth their salt are Reflex saves, and if the monk makes it he takes no damage, if he fails half.  Horrid Wilting on the other hand....

Meteor Swarm- risk a touch attack or a Reflex save with a 9th level spell for potentially low damage...

My choice of spells- Bigby's Crushing Hand- suddenly the Monk's not-so-mobile as he has NO chance against a +40's grapple.  Prismatic Sphere- because... yeah... you can't run through that much pain.  Quickened True Strike and Otto's Irresistable Dance or Imprisonment if you'd like to chance a save. 

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.


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## Thanee (Oct 20, 2005)

Bryan898 said:
			
		

> Next, I'd use Quiverring Palm instead of Stunning Blow.  I can't see why people are talking about Stunning Blow, when Quiverring Palm is the same DC but an instant death.  The Monk could just as easily have a DC 30 on this ability.  Fort or die wizard, and suddenly it's a game of initiative.




Nope, the wizard will make that first save on a 2+ and that's all he needs to get to cast his spells. I think we all agree, that the wizard simply wins, as soon as he casts his first spell _Time Stop_ or whatever, there are plenty options.



> Saves need to be maxed... unfortunately Monk's have MAD.  Still with magical items, your saves should each be around 20+.




The monk's saves don't matter. Only against wizards with little clue. 



> Force Cage is also close, while Dimensional Anchor has a ranged touch, and a Monk's touch AC at this level could be in the 30's.  You'd be better off chancing the monk's save vrs and instant death spell.




_Dimensional Lock_, bay-bee, not _Anchor_.



> Contingency teleport eh?  Whenever he gets close?  So the monk closes.. you teleport away, then what?




Then you use your buffs and your _Greater Scry_ and summons and ... and ... and ... THEN you come back.



> Time Stop- you can cast area spells and buffing spells, YAY!




YAY, indeed! Do you even have an idea how obscene a 20th level buffed up wizard's stats look like!? 



> Quickened True Strike and Otto's Irresistable Dance




That's one of the working methods to keep the monk busy while crushing him. I'd use an _extended Otto's_, tho, and make sure my _luckblades_ are at hand, to reroll the potential 1 on the attack roll or for a single class wizard the potential 1-4 on the SR roll.

Bye
Thanee


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## green slime (Oct 20, 2005)

You are all wrong. Forget the Wizard, forget the monk. The DM wins.


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## Klaus (Oct 20, 2005)

Here's a Monk 20 I put up in e-Tools:

Unknown, Male Human Mnk20: CR 20; Medium Humanoid ; HD 20d8+20(Monk) ; hp 114; Init +10; Spd 90; AC:37 (Flatfooted:31 Touch:29); Atk +21/16/11 base melee, +22/17/12 base ranged; +26/21/16 (2d10+9, Unarmed strike); AL LG; SV Fort +20, Ref +25, Will +23; STR 20, DEX 22, CON 13, INT 10, WIS 19, CHA 8.
Skills: Appraise +2, Balance +10, Bluff +1, Climb +7, Concentration +3, Control Shape +6, Craft (Alchemy) +0, Craft (Armorsmithing) +0, Craft (Basketweaving) +0, Craft (Blacksmithing) +0, Craft (Bookbinding) +0, Craft (Bowmaking) +0, Craft (Calligraphy) +0, Craft (Carpentry) +0, Craft (Cobbling) +0, Craft (Gemcutting) +0, Craft (Leatherworking) +0, Craft (Locksmithing) +0, Craft (Painting) +0, Craft (Pottery) +0, Craft (Sculpting) +0, Craft (Shipmaking) +0, Craft (Stonemasonry) +0, Craft (Trapmaking) +0, Craft (Weaponsmithing) +0, Craft (Weaving) +0, Diplomacy +1, Disguise +1, Escape Artist +20, Forgery +2, Gather Information +1, Heal +6, Hide +30, Intimidate +1, Jump +37, Listen +18, Literacy +2, Move Silently +30, Perform (Act) +1, Perform (Comedy) +1, Perform (Dance) +1, Perform (Keyboard Instruments) +1, Perform (Oratory) +1, Perform (Percussion) +1, Perform (Sing) +1, Perform (String Instruments) +1, Perform (Wind Instruments) +1, Ride +8, Search +2, Sense Motive +6, Spot +27, Survival +6, Swim +7, Tumble +30, Use Rope +8. 

Feats: Ability Focus, Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack: Unarmed strike, Improved Sunder, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Stunning Fist, Weapon Finesse.
Possessions: 
Goods: Coin: gp (99900) (99,900 gp).
Magic: Wondrous: Belt of Giant Strength +6 (36,000 gp); Wondrous: Bracers of Armor +8 (64,000 gp); Wondrous: Cloak of Resistance +5 (25,000 gp); Wondrous: Amulet of Mighty Fists +4 (96,000 gp); Wondrous: Gloves of Dexterity +6 (36,000 gp); Wondrous: Helm of Teleportation (73,500 gp); Wondrous: Ioun Stone, Incandescent Blue [Sphere] (8,000 gp); Wondrous: Ioun Stone, Pale Blue [Rhomboid] (8,000 gp); Wondrous: Ioun Stone, Pale Green [Prism] (30,000 gp); Wondrous: Ioun Stone, Lavendar and Green [Ellipsoid] (40,000 gp); Ring: Protection +5 (50,000 gp); Wondrous: Boots of Speed (12,000 gp); Wondrous: Tome of Understanding +5 (137,500 gp); Wondrous: Mask of the Skull (22,000 gp); Wondrous: Stone of Good Luck (Luckstone) (20,000 gp); Potion: Cure Serious Wounds (7) (1,050 gp); Potion: Protection from Energy (7) (1,050 gp).


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## Thanee (Oct 20, 2005)

That monk has no way to escape a _Forcecage_-_Dimensional Lock_-Prison.

Besides, he has two enhancement bonuses to strength. 

Bye
Thanee

P.S.


> Craft (Alchemy) +0, Craft (Armorsmithing) +0, Craft (Basketweaving) +0, Craft (Blacksmithing) +0, Craft (Bookbinding) +0, Craft (Bowmaking) +0, Craft (Calligraphy) +0, Craft (Carpentry) +0, Craft (Cobbling) +0, Craft (Gemcutting) +0, Craft (Leatherworking) +0, Craft (Locksmithing) +0, Craft (Painting) +0, Craft (Pottery) +0, Craft (Sculpting) +0, Craft (Shipmaking) +0, Craft (Stonemasonry) +0, Craft (Trapmaking) +0, Craft (Weaponsmithing) +0, Craft (Weaving) +0


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## Storm Raven (Oct 20, 2005)

Bryan898 said:
			
		

> I'd actually put it at a 60-40 in favor of the monk myself, but I'd use different tactics.
> 
> For the Monk:
> 
> If I were building the monk myself, I'd use my Empty Body ability to go ethereal first thing.  Then close with the wizard/ sorceror.




Empty body is of no value against force effects.



> _Next, I'd use Quiverring Palm instead of Stunning Blow.  I can't see why people are talking about Stunning Blow, when Quiverring Palm is the same DC but an instant death.  The Monk could just as easily have a DC 30 on this ability.  Fort or die wizard, and suddenly it's a game of initiative._





Your hypothetical monk has a 30 Wisdom using the core rules? That's pretty high, and assuming you use some sort of point buy build, you have to sacrifice a lot of other ability scores to get there.



> _Saves need to be maxed... unfortunately Monk's have MAD.  Still with magical items, your saves should each be around 20+.  Invest in a scroll of Protection from Spells and Use Magic Device and possibly add +3.  Most wizard saves will be in the 21-30 range at this level, 34 tops if they dump everything into it._





Assuming the wizard has a 30 Intelligence (to match your 30 Wisdom), the saves for his spells would range from 20 (for 0-level spells)  through 29 (for 9th level spells) assuming he does not have anything like Spell Focus on hand. The problem is, the wizard is probably going to try to use spells that don't allow for a save.



> _For the Wizard:
> 
> Force Cage is also close, while Dimensional Anchor has a ranged touch, and a Monk's touch AC at this level could be in the 30's.  You'd be better off chancing the monk's save vrs and instant death spell._





[/i]Dimensional Lock[/i] has no save. Once you are trapped in the _forcecage_ and locked down, your movement doesn't matter.



> _Horrid Wilting would possibly be the best damage dealer, and sure fire way to wear down the monk while keeping distance (1200 ft away Mwuhahaha!!!).  Now if only D&D didn't have -1 to Spot check for every ten feet putting you at a -120 Spot check...  The Monk could Hide without ranks, and run full speed and you'd literally never see him coming.... and you can't target what you can't see._





That's why you have spells like _Scrying_.



> _Contingency teleport eh?  Whenever he gets close?  So the monk closes.. you teleport away, then what?  Cast another contigency and another teleport?  Then you have to cast Another teleport to go back into the battle.  Roll init, and if you lose again, the monk can run 500 feet to get close (which he can do in a round), and your teleported again!  There goes four or more spells.  Not too mention a smart monk would immediately Hide when the Wizard disappears.  So when you return you have to find each other again (see the -1 to Spot for every 10 feet), so teleporting in 5,000 feet away will do you no good._





_Fly_ + _Teleport_ to return. Stay out of the monk's range for abundant step and you are fine. Rain death from above. Rinse, repeat.



> _Time Stop- you can cast area spells and buffing spells, YAY!  Almost all area spells that are worth their salt are Reflex saves, and if the monk makes it he takes no damage, if he fails half.  Horrid Wilting on the other hand...._





And you can summon allies. 4 greater air elementals (or some other combination of 3 or four high level summon spells) can ruin a monk's day.



> _Meteor Swarm- risk a touch attack or a Reflex save with a 9th level spell for potentially low damage..._





_True Strike_ + _Meteor Swarm_ = toasty Monk



> _My choice of spells- Bigby's Crushing Hand- suddenly the Monk's not-so-mobile as he has NO chance against a +40's grapple.  Prismatic Sphere- because... yeah... you can't run through that much pain.  Quickened True Strike and Otto's Irresistable Dance or Imprisonment if you'd like to chance a save._



_

Basically the wizard's tactics amount to (1) lock the monk down, and (2) kill him at the wizard's leisure. Once he's locked down, the monk's resistances will eventually fail._


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## Macbrea (Oct 20, 2005)

It is possible to design a monk that is absolutely cheesy for a single 20th level combat. Take this example:

Monk 20.  Items 20 Necklace of fireballs type VII in sack. 1 type 2 necklace of fireballs in which he has one 2d6 fireball in his hand.  All the feats and dex raising items he can get so that his initiative allows him to go first and one ring of fire resistance.  He moves to within 20 feet and drops the the fireball. Declares he allows himself to be hit by the 2d6 blast. All the fireballs need to suddenly make a save as if they were effected by magic fire.  Total damage when they finally go up equals 1174 d 6 damage in which the wizard will get to save for half damage.  The monk with improved evasion is very likely to ignore all damage completely. And even if he does get hit, it is very likely he will live through the number of items he fails.  

It is very unlikely the wizard would be prepared to resist fireball. As it's not in the monks normal arsenal.   

But, the question isn't wether a 20th level monk could defeat a 20th level wizard. That is easily possible given the ability to pick and choose single items for a combat.  Now, the question really is can a monk given the items aquired during normal play stack up against other classes during the same set of adventures. That really depends on what items were given out.


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## Thanee (Oct 20, 2005)

Macbrea said:
			
		

> It is very unlikely the wizard would be prepared to resist fireball.




_Protection from Energy_ is only a 3rd level spell. Why not have that active against all elements. Extended, too. Lasts over 6h and doesn't really hurt, or does it?

Bye
Thanee


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## Macbrea (Oct 20, 2005)

ok, assuming the 20th level wizard had protection from energy (fire) up. That is 240 hps protection. The average damage the wizard assuming he saves every single time. (We will give him a good day.)  is 2045 damage - 120 max = 1925 damage.  Now, he could have spell immunity fireball running and this combat quickly is over for the monk.  But, the example I gave was simply stupid as no gamemaster would give a character 21 necklaces.


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## Macbrea (Oct 20, 2005)

I should also mention for those of you that remember. I ran the second game of death here on the boards. It was built as an arena combat with 12th level characters.  Under the 3.0 rules allowing any book at the time that wizards had published.  The final winner of that combat was a fighter that got trapped behind a wall of force for the whole combat. It required him start a mining operation to get to the other side.   Very late in the combat all spell casters had wiped out due to the shear firepower they could unlease on each other.   Basicly, spell casters at that level get far more power then they can withstand.   

The only reason it came down to a combat between two fighter types at the end is because one was trapped behind a wall and the other could evade reflex saves.   This was also done on a small arena that prevented a character from leaving the area.  Given most situations a wizard should always at least tie in combat. As they can run away very easily.


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Oct 20, 2005)

Bryan898 said:
			
		

> I'd actually put it at a 60-40 in favor of the monk myself, but I'd use different tactics.
> 
> For the Monk:
> 
> If I were building the monk myself, I'd use my Empty Body ability to go ethereal first thing.  Then close with the wizard/ sorceror.




The monk vanished? I would Dimension Door as far away as I can, then cast _see invisibility_ and buffing spells, like _fly_. So no, the monk needs to sneak up on the mage. Which he can do, but not in one round anymore.



> Force Cage is also close, while Dimensional Anchor has a ranged touch, and a Monk's touch AC at this level could be in the 30's.  You'd be better off chancing the monk's save vrs and instant death spell.




*Sigh*

Cast _fly_. What is the monk to do now? Now feel free to use _true strike_ if you need to hit, provided you prepared it. If not, just fly close and use _forcecage_. (_Forcecage_ is pretty cheesy, IMO.)



> Contingency teleport eh?  Whenever he gets close?  So the monk closes.. you teleport away, then what?  Cast another contigency and another teleport?




No, you cast appropriately-ranged spells until the monk gets too close for comfort, and assuming the monk is still alive, cast another escape spell.



> Then you have to cast Another teleport to go back into the battle.  Roll init, and if you lose again, the monk can run 500 feet to get close (which he can do in a round)




Which is useless against a flying wizard.



> Time Stop- you can cast area spells and buffing spells, YAY!  Almost all area spells that are worth their salt are Reflex saves, and if the monk makes it he takes no damage, if he fails half.  Horrid Wilting on the other hand....




While I can't expect a wizard to always prepare _horrid wilting_, any mage might cast _forcecage_ during the _time stop_.



> Meteor Swarm- risk a touch attack or a Reflex save with a 9th level spell for potentially low damage...




Don't bother unless you have _true strike_.


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## JamesDJarvis (Oct 20, 2005)

The more prepared and more experienced player would win regardless of class as long as they didin't roll a lot of 1's.   
The wizard player has really got to understand how to play a high level wizard to have a sure victory in this fight.   

such duels really don't point out which class is more powerful than another class anyway, they are designed to be in a party of four characters, in a dungeon with a number of encounters against the four characters.  A wizard with all the buffs and plenty of experience in an unknown fully detailed adventure environment  is very different from  a wizard that knows who, where and when he is fighting .


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## Bryan898 (Oct 20, 2005)

Thanee:



> Nope, the wizard will make that first save on a 2+ and that's all he needs to get to cast his spells. I think we all agree, that the wizard simply wins, as soon as he casts his first spell Time Stop or whatever, there are plenty options.




The wizard saves on a 2+?  How exactly does the wizard get a +28 save?  +6 base, +6 Con, +8 resistance (protection from spells)= +20- and that's assuming a +6 Con even.  With +20 he'd still fail 50% of the time.



> Dimensional Lock, bay-bee, not Anchor.




So you cast forcecage.. then the monk abundant steps out of it.  Then Dimensional Lock?  It's an 8th level spell, you're not quickening it more than likely, so how are you pulling off a forcecage/ dimensional lock combo before the Monk can escape?  Not too mention it's easy to purchase a Helm of Teleportation.



> Then you use your buffs and your Greater Scry and summons and ... and ... and ... THEN you come back.




Better summon alot of creatures with teleport if you plan on bringing them back with you.  Greater Scry on the other hand has a save, and if the monk makes it he can't be scryed on for 24 hrs, but of course... the monk's saves don't matter cause only a stupid wizard would use spells with saves, like you said yourself.



> YAY, indeed! Do you even have an idea how obscene a 20th level buffed up wizard's stats look like!?




Yes, I've seen multiple wizards played, some as high as 28.  It can all simply come crashing down with a scroll of greater dispel magic.  But even so, you have Protection from Spells- +3 to your saves assuming a +5 cloak of resistance already.  Mind Blank would be a waste.  Invisibility, Displacement, and Mirror Image are worthless assuming the monk has an item with true seeing.  Stoneskin is worthless since the monk has ki strike (adamantine).  The stat buffing spells are okay, but you'd assume you'd have your needed stats buffed higher by items already.  Fire Shield's okay, but this will be a battle of Save or Die.  I'm missing the wonderful buff spells that would be super effective here....



> luckblades are at hand, to reroll the potential 1 on the attack roll or for a single class wizard the potential 1-4 on the SR roll.




We'll not bring wishes into the equation please.  The game will literally break if you do.  Otherwise my monk buys a ring of wishes and wishes that your wizard forgot all his spells he prepared for the day =P.  Or simply use it to make the saves I fail, or to undo your successful save against my attack, etc.


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Oct 20, 2005)

Brian898 said:
			
		

> Invisibility, Displacement, and Mirror Image are worthless assuming the monk has an item with true seeing.




_Nondetection_ helps with invisibility, but IMO that's not the best resource to use against an opponent who just might have Blind-Fight.


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## Bryan898 (Oct 20, 2005)

Storm Raven:



> Empty body is of no value against force effects.




Yes... and there's what, four force spells?  Just how many magic missiles, wall of forces, forcecage's, and mordenkainen's (sp?) will the wizard have prepared.  A simple Helm of Teleportation remedies the forcecage problem.  Meanwhile, while ethereal almost every other attack spell in the wizard's repeitoire is useless to attack the monk with.  It would make approaching the wizard much safer and easier.



> Your hypothetical monk has a 30 Wisdom using the core rules? That's pretty high, and assuming you use some sort of point buy build, you have to sacrifice a lot of other ability scores to get there.




The hypothetical wizard in the case likely has an Int of 30 as well.  It's also not so high, put +5 from stat increases, +5 book, +6 item and you can start with a 14.  The lack of money needed for weapons (typically 200,000k for a fighter class) allows the monk to use his money on stat increasing items such as books to increase the all import stats of Wisdom, Dexterity, and Constitution.



> The problem is, the wizard is probably going to try to use spells that don't allow for a save.




Not many of those are so great in 3.5.  I looked when choosing the wizard spells I'd use.  The instant kill effects all allow a save nowadays.



> [/i]Dimensional Lock[/i] has no save. Once you are trapped in the forcecage and locked down, your movement doesn't matter.




Yes but it would take you two turns to cast this combination, two turns in which the monk would have to stand still.  Though that does make it quite possible with time stop.



> That's why you have spells like Scrying.




Has a save, so you'd better hope the monk fails it.  You'd also have to establish how well the two know each other, because if they've never personally met the monk gets +5.  Still doesn't help that when you return the monk is hidden via the Hide skill and you have to try to find him.



> Fly + Teleport to return. Stay out of the monk's range for abundant step and you are fine. Rain death from above. Rinse, repeat.




Once again, you can't simply sit 200 feet up in the air and rain death.  That's a -20 spot check to find the monk with Hide.  Neither See invisibility or true seeing allow you to see a hidden character.  Raining death from above isn't a viable option.



> And you can summon allies. 4 greater air elementals (or some other combination of 3 or four high level summon spells) can ruin a monk's day.




True, but over the course of a few rounds.  It doesn't take long for the wizard's d4 HD to run out, or for the stunning attack or quiverring palm.



> True Strike + Meteor Swarm = toasty Monk




Not so.  You throw four spheres, each one makes a ranged touch attack.  Only the first one will benefit from true strike.  Not too mention the spheres deal 2d6 bludgeoning damage, then explode for 6d6 with a Reflex save for half.  With Improved Evasion the monk is already taking only half damage.  Assuming the wizard hits on the first, and second vrs the monk that will be 4d6 bludgeoning damage.  Next the monk gets four saves vrs probably a 30 DC, with a possible +20 or more bonus that's 50%, or hit by two.  Because of Improved Evasion that means he takes 6d6/2 and 6d6/2, or 6d6.  So he takes around 10d6 damage, nothing a self respecting 20th level monk can't handle.  This is assuming the wizard hits on the touch attack.  The monk's AC could easily be 30+ on touch attacks (+5 deflection from RoP, +10 Wis, +7 Dex, +4 monk dodge bonus= 36 touch AC for example.) 



> Basically the wizard's tactics amount to (1) lock the monk down, and (2) kill him at the wizard's leisure. Once he's locked down, the monk's resistances will eventually fail.




I couldn't agree more.  The part where we differ is that I think a well played monk would have a chance of avoiding being locked down long enough to make one attack on the wizard.  One Quiverring Palm or Stunning Blow could possibly be enough to end the fight.


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## Bryan898 (Oct 20, 2005)

(Psi)SeveredHead:



> The monk vanished? I would Dimension Door as far away as I can, then cast see invisibility and buffing spells, like fly. So no, the monk needs to sneak up on the mage. Which he can do, but not in one round anymore.




As would I.  However, on the other hand, if I'm the monk and the wizard disapears I jump for cover and hide.  Also, any self respecting 20th level character will have access to fly.  Eventually, whether it be hours or days, the wizard will need to come down, and that's when the monk strikes.  Stalk your prey until you're controlling the situation.



> Cast fly. What is the monk to do now? Now feel free to use true strike if you need to hit, provided you prepared it. If not, just fly close and use forcecage. (Forcecage is pretty cheesy, IMO.)




Naturally the monk will use an item to fly.  Note, even with true strike the wizard has a chance to miss against a 36 or more touch AC.  Forcecage IMO is cheese as well, I don't really allow it in my game, it kind of goes the way of Imprisonment.



> Which is useless against a flying wizard.




I've played quite a few high level/ epic games, and I've NEVER seen a fighting class without some form of fly by level 20.



> While I can't expect a wizard to always prepare horrid wilting, any mage might cast forcecage during the time stop.




Quite true, the Forcecage and Dimensional Lock combo work well in a time stop.  But if my monk is ethereal the Dimensional Lock won't affect him, as it notes that it has no effect on creatures already ethereal.



> Don't bother unless you have true strike.




Already broke down the meteor swarm true strike thing above.  Meteor Swarm truly is a pretty weak spell for 9th level... too many dice, 4 touch attacks and the opponent gets four Reflex saves... Horrid Wilting is much better, or even Polar Ray IMO.


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## Storm Raven (Oct 20, 2005)

Bryan898 said:
			
		

> Yes... and there's what, four force spells?  Just how many magic missiles, wall of forces, forcecage's, and mordenkainen's (sp?) will the wizard have prepared.  A simple Helm of Teleportation remedies the forcecage problem.  Meanwhile, while ethereal almost every other attack spell in the wizard's repeitoire is useless to attack the monk with.  It would make approaching the wizard much safer and easier.




I don't need more than one or two preapred to ruin the monk's day.



> _The hypothetical wizard in the case likely has an Int of 30 as well.  It's also not so high, put +5 from stat increases, +5 book, +6 item and you can start with a 14.  The lack of money needed for weapons (typically 200,000k for a fighter class) allows the monk to use his money on stat increasing items such as books to increase the all import stats of Wisdom, Dexterity, and Constitution._





Three +5 books would cost you somewhere in excess of 400,000 gp. That's more than half of your wealth by 20th level.



> _Yes but it would take you two turns to cast this combination, two turns in which the monk would have to stand still.  Though that does make it quite possible with time stop._





One round. _greater rod of quicken spell_.



> _Once again, you can't simply sit 200 feet up in the air and rain death.  That's a -20 spot check to find the monk with Hide.  Neither See invisibility or true seeing allow you to see a hidden character.  Raining death from above isn't a viable option._





It depends on what the monk has to use for hiding. In an arena type battle (like has been discussed here), there isn't any place to hide.



> _True, but over the course of a few rounds.  It doesn't take long for the wizard's d4 HD to run out, or for the stunning attack or quiverring palm._





Not with _time stop_ in effect. First you cast _time stop_ then you summon a couple buddies to keep the monk busy while you cast more spells.



> _Not so.  You throw four spheres, each one makes a ranged touch attack.  Only the first one will benefit from true strike.  Not too mention the spheres deal 2d6 bludgeoning damage, then explode for 6d6 with a Reflex save for half.  With Improved Evasion the monk is already taking only half damage.  Assuming the wizard hits on the first, and second vrs the monk that will be 4d6 bludgeoning damage.  Next the monk gets four saves vrs probably a 30 DC, with a possible +20 or more bonus that's 50%, or hit by two.  Because of Improved Evasion that means he takes 6d6/2 and 6d6/2, or 6d6.  So he takes around 10d6 damage, nothing a self respecting 20th level monk can't handle.  This is assuming the wizard hits on the touch attack.  The monk's AC could easily be 30+ on touch attacks (+5 deflection from RoP, +10 Wis, +7 Dex, +4 monk dodge bonus= 36 touch AC for example.)_





Reread the spell description. If the ranged touch attack hits, not only does the monk take the 2d6 bludgeoning damage, but he gets no save against that sphere's fire damage. That's 8d6 damage, no save. A 20th level wizard who isn't even specialized in touch attacks would probably have a +32 or so (+10 BAB +20 _true strike_, +2 Dex) on the _true strike_ enhanced touch attack. Combine this with judicious use of summoned creatures to keep the monk busy, and a couple of things like _horrid wilting_ and the monk will probably lose.


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## tylermalan (Oct 20, 2005)

*Thread starter...*



> Originally Posted by Bryan898
> Yes... and there's what, four force spells? Just how many magic missiles, wall of forces, forcecage's, and mordenkainen's (sp?) will the wizard have prepared?




Bryan898:  Remember, this is a fight between two COMPLETELY prepared characters.  Imagine that from the moment the Wizard and Monk were born, they both instinctively knew that at level 20, they would fight each other in a duel.  This means that throughout their entire lives, every magic item and spell that they acquired was geared specifically to fight each other at level 20, they know the exact limits of each other (in game terms, meaning they know maximum hit points and stats and so on), and the only books allowed are the Core Books.  That being said, there is no argument over whether or not the Wizard would have access to the "right" spells or magic items, and the same can be said for the Monk.  

I really don't see how anyone can think that the Monk even really has a chance, as Dimensional Lock and Forcecage is really all that is necessary, making spell selection beyond those two spells almost pointless.  Even still, you can assume the Wizard has Contigency Teleport and plenty of Scrying spells, plus Horrid Wilting.  That's what, 6 or 7 spells?  That leaves a lot of spell slots open for things like Time Stop... 

The only thing that gives the Monk a chance IMO is antimagic, and even that only gives him a CHANCE, not a win.

In addition, I now see why people think the Monk is underpowered, as after going over his list of abilities again, I don't see a lot there that is worth much, nothing like what I previously thought, anyway.


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## Bryan898 (Oct 20, 2005)

> Three +5 books would cost you somewhere in excess of 400,000 gp. That's more than half of your wealth by 20th level.




I didn't say three +5 books.  One +5 book, two +4 books, four +6 items= approx 460,000 gp.  That's +10 to Dex and Con, +16 to Wis.  Let's see- 32 point buy, base stats of 14, 16, 14, 12, 14, 8.  By 20th level- 20, 26, 20, 12, 30, 8.  Without any other items that gives the monk: AC 32, touch 32, flat-footed 26; Svs +17 Ref +20 Will +22; also Stunning Fist and Quiverring Palm DC 30.



> One round. greater rod of quicken spell.




Another item that I don't allow because of it's horribly broken applications... but yes, allowing these cause much damage.  Then again if we're allowing such items it shouldn't be too improbable to allow the monk an item that can activate Antimagic Field 3/day, or less depending on the most optimal cost-wise.



> Not with time stop in effect. First you cast time stop then you summon a couple buddies to keep the monk busy while you cast more spells.




Summon monsters are pathetic, AC 37+... nuff said.



> Reread the spell description. If the ranged touch attack hits, not only does the monk take the 2d6 bludgeoning damage, but he gets no save against that sphere's fire damage. That's 8d6 damage, no save. A 20th level wizard who isn't even specialized in touch attacks would probably have a +32 or so (+10 BAB +20 true strike, +2 Dex) on the true strike enhanced touch attack. Combine this with judicious use of summoned creatures to keep the monk busy, and a couple of things like horrid wilting and the monk will probably lose.




So he'd hit on the first one for 8d6.  Then likely miss on all the others as he'd need a 20 to hit the monk's touch AC of 32.  Still pretty worthless to me.



> It depends on what the monk has to use for hiding. In an arena type battle (like has been discussed here), there isn't any place to hide.




What type of arena, open top or not?  Do they start across from each other and someone says Go?  If the rules are like that, the monk probably wins initiative (+12 using my monk example above).  Then charges and uses his quiverring palm or stunning blow attack.  If he hits, the wizard has to make a Fort save DC 30 or die.  I'd say about a 50% chance (+6 Fort, +6 Con, +8 Spell Protection).



> Remember, this is a fight between two COMPLETELY prepared characters. Imagine that from the moment the Wizard and Monk were born, they both instinctively knew that at level 20, they would fight each other in a duel. This means that throughout their entire lives, every magic item and spell that they acquired was geared specifically to fight each other at level 20, they know the exact limits of each other (in game terms, meaning they know maximum hit points and stats and so on), and the only books allowed are the Core Books. That being said, there is no argument over whether or not the Wizard would have access to the "right" spells or magic items, and the same can be said for the Monk.




Knowing the Monk's abilites don't exactly mean knowing what the monk's going to do.  You memorize your spells 4+bonus spells, but is he going to directly charge you? Is he going to use Abundant Step, or turn Ethereal?  Will he attack you with Quiverring Palm or try to grapple you?  Will he sunder you component pouch?  You can't assume that the wizard knows this any more than the monk can assume what wizard spells are going to be used.  You can just prepare against the common spells used in such battles.


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## Storm Raven (Oct 20, 2005)

Bryan898 said:
			
		

> I didn't say three +5 books.  One +5 book, two +4 books, four +6 items= approx 460,000 gp.  That's +10 to Dex and Con, +16 to Wis.  Let's see- 32 point buy, base stats of 14, 16, 14, 12, 14, 8.  By 20th level- 20, 26, 20, 12, 30, 8.  Without any other items that gives the monk: AC 32, touch 32, flat-footed 26; Svs +17 Ref +20 Will +22; also Stunning Fist and Quiverring Palm DC 30.




The higher point buy is to the monk's advantage right there. That's part of the problem - most characters aren't built on that many points.



> _Another item that I don't allow because of it's horribly broken applications... but yes, allowing these cause much damage.  Then again if we're allowing such items it shouldn't be too improbable to allow the monk an item that can activate Antimagic Field 3/day, or less depending on the most optimal cost-wise._





Did you miss the terms of the debate? "Core rules only". A _greater rod of sudden quicken_ is core. A home-brewed antimagic field is not. You can forget all of your house rules about what you would and would not allow - they are inapplicable.

And more to the point, all you prove by bringing them up is that, once again, when someone talks about something that varies from most people's experience, that their opinion really stems from a series of house rules that they have adopted that have changed the baseline assumed by the game.



> _Summon monsters are pathetic, AC 37+... nuff said._





But they keep you occupied, which is the point. And a greater air elemental's unmodified attack bonus is +23. Four of them slamming you twice per round will hit your 37 AC 2.4 times per round, for an average of 14 points of damage per hit, or 33.6 points of damage per round. Throw in a couple of attack spells to target you, and your monk is hurting.



> _So he'd hit on the first one for 8d6.  Then likely miss on all the others as he'd need a 20 to hit the monk's touch AC of 32.  Still pretty worthless to me._





Against which, you have no means of retaliating. You're in a _dimension locked forcecage_ remember? He only has to reel off a couple of those, a couple of _horrid wiltings_, even a series of _magic missiles_ and you aren't doing much of anything any more.



> _What type of arena, open top or not?  Do they start across from each other and someone says Go?  If the rules are like that, the monk probably wins initiative (+12 using my monk example above).  Then charges and uses his quiverring palm or stunning blow attack.  If he hits, the wizard has to make a Fort save DC 30 or die.  I'd say about a 50% chance (+6 Fort, +6 Con, +8 Spell Protection)._





You are forgetting things like _luckstones_, _pale green ioun stones_, and so on. Just those two items added reduce the chance of failure to 40%. But then again, what you are saying here isn't that different from what I said in the beginning: the monk has to get on the wizard off the bat to win. Given that most wizard's will likely have a +8 or +9 initiative bonus (Improved Initiative plus high Dexterity), winning initiative isn't such a gimme for the monk. Even then, given that most wizard's will have a _moment of prescience_ active at the outset of combat, your monk may not have a very good chance of hitting with his initial swipe. And if the monk doesn't get the wizard off the bat, the monk is almost certainly dead. The wizard just has too many options to lock down and destroy the monk.



> _Knowing the Monk's abilites don't exactly mean knowing what the monk's going to do.  You memorize your spells 4+bonus spells, but is he going to directly charge you? Is he going to use Abundant Step, or turn Ethereal?  Will he attack you with Quiverring Palm or try to grapple you?  Will he sunder you component pouch?  You can't assume that the wizard knows this any more than the monk can assume what wizard spells are going to be used.  You can just prepare against the common spells used in such battles._





I don't need to know. If I win initative, I lock him down in the first round and finish him off however I want. If I lose Initiative, I know what he's going to do - because he does it. Then I react once he's committed.


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## Crothian (Oct 20, 2005)

Wouldn't it be best to just take the NPCs from the DMG and use that as a base line for this?  They are created with the same rules and are not going to be min maxed and unreaslitic characters like we see here.


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## Lord Pendragon (Oct 20, 2005)

People have mentioned a _forcecage_ a couple times.  If the tactic is so deadly and fool-proof, wouldn't a prepared 20th-level monk have, for instance, a _greater ring of spell storing_ with _disintegrate_ stored, ready for just such an emergency?

Just a question.


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## Macbrea (Oct 20, 2005)

Far as I can tell.. Forcecage only really slows down the combat. Doesn't end it. Techncially, on the 20th level fight that means every 40 hours the wizard looses 1500 gps from his wealth. It doesn't allow him to attack the individual in the cage unless he leaves a barred cage. At that point the monk is perfectly within reason to drink his potion of gaseous form and escape the cage.   So, what that really has the effect of is the monk needs to somehow not have to eat food or need to drink water.  As this could turn out the be a really long fight.


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## Storm Raven (Oct 20, 2005)

Lord Pendragon said:
			
		

> People have mentioned a _forcecage_ a couple times.  If the tactic is so deadly and fool-proof, wouldn't a prepared 20th-level monk have, for instance, a _greater ring of spell storing_ with _disintegrate_ stored, ready for just such an emergency?
> 
> Just a question.




Well, mostly because it is an incredibly expensive item with limited use for the monk. For example, the hypothetical monk that has been partially statted out in this thread has spent ~460,000 on ability enhancing items. A _major ring of spell storing_ would cost another 200,000 gp. That only leaves ~100,000 gp for everything else, like protective items, offensive items, and so on.


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## Storm Raven (Oct 20, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Wouldn't it be best to just take the NPCs from the DMG and use that as a base line for this?  They are created with the same rules and are not going to be min maxed and unreaslitic characters like we see here.




The lower stats and lesser amount of magic the standard NPCs have just works to the advantage of the wizard, since the monk is heavily dependant upon high ability scores and items.


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## Lord Pendragon (Oct 20, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Well, mostly because it is an incredibly expensive item with limited use for the monk. For example, the hypothetical monk that has been partially statted out in this thread has spent ~460,000 on ability enhancing items. A _major ring of spell storing_ would cost another 200,000 gp. That only leaves ~100,000 gp for everything else, like protective items, offensive items, and so on.



Well, I'm not sure it's a good idea to mix one guy's "partial statting" with anothers, but you make a good point.  I hadn't realized the ring was that expensive.

Then again, I'm liking Macbrea's _potion of gaseous form_ as a great supplement.


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## tylermalan (Oct 20, 2005)

> Quote by Bryan898:
> Knowing the Monk's abilites don't exactly mean knowing what the monk's going to do. You memorize your spells 4+bonus spells, but is he going to directly charge you? Is he going to use Abundant Step, or turn Ethereal? Will he attack you with Quiverring Palm or try to grapple you? Will he sunder you component pouch? You can't assume that the wizard knows this any more than the monk can assume what wizard spells are going to be used. You can just prepare against the common spells used in such battles.
> 
> 
> ...




That's exactly my point Bryan, I wasn't trying to say that the Wizard is going to know what the Monk will do, its that he doesn't need to, ever.

Crothian, we don't do that because we're already assuming the exact opposite, that the characters are NOT average.  They're both as prepared as they can possibly be.

I also don't think I need to point out that everything the Wizard can do, he does because he's a Wizard.  Every chance the Monk has, he gets from an item.

Macbrea, unless I'm mistaken, the Forcecage could be the 10 ft. cell with no windows, but its invisible, which means the wizard coule still target the Monk inside of it with Horrid Wilting.


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## Storm Raven (Oct 20, 2005)

Lord Pendragon said:
			
		

> Well, I'm not sure it's a good idea to mix one guy's "partial statting" with anothers, but you make a good point.  I hadn't realized the ring was that expensive.
> 
> Then again, I'm liking Macbrea's _potion of gaseous form_ as a great supplement.




That has it's own problems. The monk while in _gaseous form_ becomes vulnerable, losing lots of its defenses and abilities. The monk may not be able to end the _gaseous form_ when he wants to (I need to reread the potions section to be sure), which would trap him in this form for a while.

But the thing is, slowing the combat down is what the wizard _wants_ to do. The monk wasting time drinking a potion, moving, and later reforming is time that the wizard can cast spells.


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## LostSoul (Oct 20, 2005)

*The cheese, the cheese...*

What about _Dust of Sneezing and Choking_?

How far can you throw that?

Is there a way to negate it?


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## Macbrea (Oct 20, 2005)

Combat styles are really dependant on the character: given this monk:

Random Monk, Male ExPsiHb, Elan Mnk20: CR 20; Medium Aberration (Psionic); HD 20d8+40(Monk) ; hp 134; Init +12; Spd 90; AC:41 (Flatfooted:33 Touch:33); Atk +16/11/6 base melee, +23/18/13 base ranged; +23/18/13 (2d10+1, Unarmed strike); SQ: Repletion (Su), Resilience (Su), Resistance (Su), Naturally Psionic: 2 Bonus PP; AL LG; SV Fort +14, Ref +20, Will +21; STR 12, DEX 26, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 28, CHA 8.
Skills: Balance +15, Climb +10, Concentration +10, Escape Artist +31, Heal +11, Hide +25, Jump +25, Listen +20, Move Silently +25, Survival +11. 

Feats: Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack: Unarmed strike, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Naturally Psionic 2, Self-Sufficient, Stunning Fist, Weapon Finesse.
Possessions: 
Goods: Coin: gp (2050) (2,050 gp).
Magic: Wondrous: Periapt of Wisdom +6 (36,000 gp); Wondrous: Belt, Monk`s (13,000 gp); Wondrous: Boots of Teleportation (49,000 gp); Wondrous: Bracers of Armor +8 (64,000 gp); Wondrous: Cloak of Displacement, Major (50,000 gp); Wondrous: Cube of Force (62,000 gp); Wondrous: Bottle of Air (7,250 gp); Wondrous: Gloves of Dexterity +6 (36,000 gp); Wondrous: Iron Bands of Bilarro (26,000 gp); Eversmoking bottle (5400gp);  Ring: Three Wishes (97,950 gp); Ring: Freedom of Movement (40,000 gp); Wondrous: Decanter of Endless Water (9,000 gp); Potion: Water Breathing (10) (1,500 gp); Potion: Water Breathing (10) (1,500 gp); Potion: Water Breathing (10) (1,500 gp); Wondrous: Heward`s Handy Haversack (2,000 gp); 13 Potion: Cure Serious Wounds (5) (750 gp); 10  Potion: Gaseous Form (5) (750 gp); 3  Wondrous: Dust of Disappearance (3,500 gp); 4 Wondrous: Elemental Gem, Water (2,250 gp);

Used: Wondrous: Manual of Quickness of Action +4 (110,000 gp); Wondrous: Tome of Understanding +4 (110,000 gp); 

Vs the hyperthetical wizard. He would simply put up cube of force on his initiative. Inside any force cage that they wizard set down. Then immediately open the bottle of endless water and the eversmoking bottle. Since, he is probably at this point dimensionally anchored and protected inside his force cube he waits until he needs to drink a water breathing potion. Summones his Water elementals and then uses the ring of wishes to wish to wizard was in the cube with him. The fight truely begins at this point.  Monk underwater and blinded by smoke in the water grapples the wizard with the aid of the water elementals.  Fight becomes a very messy fight for the wizard.

As you can see, it's all a matter of style.


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## Sputnick (Oct 20, 2005)

Heres what I love about the fight a monk is a mage-killer class yet he cant stand an onslaught of spells.  But in some of the above desciptions supplment monk for any other class and you get the same result death for the other class.  Heres why I like Monk because they get a natural spell resistance no other core class has this feature.  Second Improved evasion takes care of you Time Stop carpet bomb of Deley blast Fireballs.  I dont know why you think Time stop sovles all problems cause it gives you a HUDGE advantge but will not WIN you the fight.  I've seen alot of Wizards/Sorcercers blow their wad in three rounds cause they used time stop and lost all their high lvl spells.  Thirdly is simply the saves a monk has the best core class saves which means the wizard cant pick on you targeting a spell of you weak save.  Not to mention the equipment at 20th could make this monk a devistating weapon combine this with a little Use magic device and I take my staff of power and kick that wizard's ass with it.

So the monk class is the best class to defeat a wizard in duel combat, can the wizard win well yes like said 100 times above "depending on circumstance." 

But there is no question in my mind that out of all classes there is none better suited to the task of dueling a wizard and totally owning them!!!!


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## IcyCool (Oct 20, 2005)

tylermalan said:
			
		

> Macbrea, unless I'm mistaken, the Forcecage could be the 10 ft. cell with no windows, but its invisible, which means the wizard coule still target the Monk inside of it with Horrid Wilting.




Unless you do the barred cage, forcecage will block line of effect.


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## tylermalan (Oct 20, 2005)

Sputnick said:
			
		

> Heres what I love about the fight a monk is a mage-killer class yet he cant stand an onslaught of spells.  But in some of the above desciptions supplment monk for any other class and you get the same result death for the other class.  Heres why I like Monk because they get a natural spell resistance no other core class has this feature.  Second Improved evasion takes care of you Time Stop carpet bomb of Deley blast Fireballs.  I dont know why you think Time stop sovles all problems cause it gives you a HUDGE advantge but will not WIN you the fight.  I've seen alot of Wizards/Sorcercers blow their wad in three rounds cause they used time stop and lost all their high lvl spells.  Thirdly is simply the saves a monk has the best core class saves which means the wizard cant pick on you targeting a spell of you weak save.  Not to mention the equipment at 20th could make this monk a devistating weapon combine this with a little Use magic device and I take my staff of power and kick that wizard's ass with it.
> 
> So the monk class is the best class to defeat a wizard in duel combat, can the wizard win well yes like said 100 times above "depending on circumstance."
> 
> But there is no question in my mind that out of all classes there is none better suited to the task of dueling a wizard and totally owning them!!!!




Man, I don't think ANY of that makes sense, assuming I read it correctly, which is, truthfully, unlikely...

We've already dealt with an opinion like this, but to reiterate... It's not Time Stop, then Fireball - its Time Stop, then Horrid Wilting.  Horrid Wilting requires a Fort save for half damage, not a Reflex save, which negates the Evasion/Improved Evasion ability.  Also, Spell Resistance is really easy to beat for a Wizard who has dedicated his life to beating a Monk when they both reach level 20, so I think everyone can agree that the SR is NOT a factor.  In addition, even with horribly high saves, against a Wizard with, what, a 32+ Intelligence, the Monk will still need to roll upwards of a natural 15, meaning he only saves a quarter of the time (all those numbers were approximated).  Lastly, it's not the WIZARD who "might" win based on circumstance as has been said above, its the Monk who "might" win if given the right circumstances.  If in doubt, ask Thanee.

Oh, and thanks Icy, I didn't know.


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## IcyCool (Oct 20, 2005)

tylermalan said:
			
		

> We've already dealt with an opinion like this, but to reiterate... It's not Time Stop, then Fireball - its Time Stop, then Horrid Wilting.




You can't use Horrid Wilting on someone during Time Stop.


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## Shadowdweller (Oct 20, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Well, mostly because it is an incredibly expensive item with limited use for the monk. For example, the hypothetical monk that has been partially statted out in this thread has spent ~460,000 on ability enhancing items. A major ring of spell storing would cost another 200,000 gp. That only leaves ~100,000 gp for everything else, like protective items, offensive items, and so on.



 You've obviously never experimented around much with a Ring of Spell Storing.  They are MASSIVELY and CONSISTENTLY useful (for a non-caster anyway), and well worth every copper.

To be honest, any monk built to face a wizard in this manner who does NOT have a Ring of Spell Storing (or equivalent item) has been built WRONG.



			
				tylermalan said:
			
		

> We've already dealt with an opinion like this, but to reiterate... It's not Time Stop, then Fireball - its Time Stop, then Horrid Wilting. Horrid Wilting requires a Fort save for half damage, not a Reflex save, which negates the Evasion/Improved Evasion ability.



 Too bad Horrid Wilting can't be cast while Time Stop is in effect...

(if that's the tactic you're trying to imply, rather than Time Stop, Trap, Call Outsiders, Buff, Horrid Wilting)


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## Sputnick (Oct 21, 2005)

Hey readin those high lvl spells might help you understand there limitations cause I see way to many mistakes like people over using horrid wilting in a time stop...I bet some of you noobs still think you can haste other people in a time stop too. So like any EXPERIANCED player will tell you Wizards at high lvl are powerful but dont get high and mighty.  READ THE RULES then you'll know how to avoid high lvl spells and in the end the MONK is the best out of all the other classes.  

Oh and you didn't need to tell me that your "numbers" are aproximate because when you make a 20th lvl monk you could have most of your save stats at +10, resitance bonus +5,  base 12, and +2 from feats is +29 and those are real numbers.


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## Thanee (Oct 21, 2005)

Bryan898 said:
			
		

> The wizard saves on a 2+?  How exactly does the wizard get a +28 save?




With _Moment of Prescience_.



> So you cast forcecage... then the monk abundant steps out of it.  Then Dimensional Lock?




Yeah, just without the monk acting in between, thanks to the _greater metamagic rod of quicken_ every 20th level wizard will surely have, if equipment can simply be bought.



> Greater Scry on the other hand has a save, and if the monk makes it he can't be scryed on for 24 hrs, but of course... the monk's saves don't matter cause only a stupid wizard would use spells with saves, like you said yourself.




That's right, but what does it matter, eventually the monk will fail his save. It's not like the wizard can't wait for a few days. 



> Yes, I've seen multiple wizards played, some as high as 28.  It can all simply come crashing down with a scroll of greater dispel magic.




Didn't they know about _ring of counterspells_?



> I'm missing the wonderful buff spells that would be super effective here....




How about _Shapechange_? Or _Gate_ for the 'summons'; 40 HD outsiders can be quite nasty.

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Oct 21, 2005)

Lord Pendragon said:
			
		

> People have mentioned a _forcecage_ a couple times.  If the tactic is so deadly and fool-proof, wouldn't a prepared 20th-level monk have, for instance, a _greater ring of spell storing_ with _disintegrate_ stored, ready for just such an emergency?




If the characters were built just for this purpose, he better had one. 

But realistically, you won't find something like that on a monk, while the wizard has no trouble getting the _Forcecage_ up. It's definitely one of the nastier combos in the PHB.

But a simple _quickened True Strike_ + _extended Otto's Irresistible Dance_ will take care of the monk even better.

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Oct 21, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Wouldn't it be best to just take the NPCs from the DMG and use that as a base line for this?  They are created with the same rules and are not going to be min maxed and unreaslitic characters like we see here.




The problem is, the stuff mentioned for the wizard really is not unrealistic at all. A typical PC 20th level wizard will be able to pull mostly everything mentioned here off. The only item in question would be the _rod of quicken_, which I agree is horribly overpowered.

Bye
Thanee


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## Rystil Arden (Oct 21, 2005)

> That's right, but what does it matter, eventually the monk will fail his save. It's not like the wizard can't wait for a few days.




Not to mention that the initial encounter is a great time to get a body scraping from the monk for the -10 to the save.

You know, I just noticed that the spell's description begins with "You can see and hear some creature..." and later claims "If the save fails, you can see (but not hear) the subject..."


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## tylermalan (Oct 21, 2005)

Sputnick said:
			
		

> Hey readin those high lvl spells might help you understand there limitations cause I see way to many mistakes like people over using horrid wilting in a time stop...I bet some of you noobs still think you can haste other people in a time stop too. So like any EXPERIANCED player will tell you Wizards at high lvl are powerful but dont get high and mighty.  READ THE RULES then you'll know how to avoid high lvl spells and in the end the MONK is the best out of all the other classes.
> 
> Oh and you didn't need to tell me that your "numbers" are aproximate because when you make a 20th lvl monk you could have most of your save stats at +10, resitance bonus +5,  base 12, and +2 from feats is +29 and those are real numbers.




Yeah, my mistake about the Horrid Wilting, sorry about that, but you say you "see way too many mistakes..." - what other mistakes have been made?  Oh, in addition, you didn't address any of the other things I said about why your original strategy wouldn't work, like how SR isn't really a factor, nor are the saves...  Also, I wasn't telling you that my numbers were approximate to make fun of you or something, I was just saying that I didn't calculate them at all, so no need to get nasty while coming in this late in the game, friend.  As usual, Thanee's pretty dead-on, so check above for inevitable Monk death.


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## Lamoni (Oct 21, 2005)

Very interesting thread.

Just a few points:  We have already discussed many sets of spells that the wizard will have prepared.  Yet he can't have all of them prepared without scrolls... and I hope we reduced his wealth by the appropriate amount.  If he created them, then maybe the wizard should still be at level 19 after using up XP.

Another thing... I find it odd that a wizard would have several spells with expensive material components without casting any of them before the encounter with the monk.  We should probably cut down on the wizard's wealth a little bit more if we assume he has had practice in casting them on his journey to level 20.

Anyway, I think that we have demonstrated that the wizard can easily win if he knows what preparations the monk has made.  The monk has disintigrate?  Let's not waste a round with forcecage.  The monk can fly?  Let's not worry about casting fly.  The monk has protection from good (and ignores summoned creatures)?  Let's not summon any monsters.  Etc.  The problem is that the wizard excels most when he can study his opponent.  If he can't, it is much tougher.

Now if a monk was told exactly what the wizard had prepared before the fight, then it wouldn't be too hard to find ways to counter them.  The problem is that neither side supposedly knows.  The wizard does have an advantage because he can be more flexible with less money.  The monk has to invest his wealth in completely different items in order to use different tactics.

Another thing.  We are assuming 3.0?  If we want to allow the more powerful 3.0 version of several spells, while we use the less powerful 3.0 monk... why even do the contest?  I guess that a level 20 monk is about the same in either version, but in 3.0 very few monks would live long enough to reach level 20.

Those are my two cents.  I think that it was all summed up well by the person who posted his results from actually performing the battles in 4 different arenas.  I am also impressed by some of the different ideas presented like the monk with fireballs and the monk with the water elementals.  If I were the wizard, I would be caught completely by surprise.


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## Thanee (Oct 21, 2005)

Lamoni said:
			
		

> Another thing... I find it odd that a wizard would have several spells with expensive material components...




Which one apart from _Force Cage_?



> Anyway, I think that we have demonstrated that the wizard can easily win if he knows what preparations the monk has made.  The monk has disintigrate?  Let's not waste a round with forcecage.




How about we start at the right point... the _Disintegrate_ was the counter to the _Force Cage_, since the monk was preparing for the wizard's preparations, not the other way around. 



> Another thing.  We are assuming 3.0?




I don't think so. 3.5 is the current edition.

Bye
Thanee


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## Lamoni (Oct 21, 2005)

Just a few more questions I had.  If the wizard uses true strike and otto's irresistable dance, is there a way for the wizard not to have to run up to the monk to touch him?  I think that any smart monk will not stand close enough for the wizard to do this.  The monk will either close completely, or stay 40 feet away ready to close next round.

Two more items that could be quite valuable for the monk.  A ring of spell turning and some dust of disappearance.



> Which one apart from Force Cage?



Maybe there wasn't another one.  But I know that gate was mentioned as a buffing spell that can be cast during a time stop.  That does have a significant XP cost with it.


> How about we start at the right point... the Disintegrate was the counter to the Force Cage, since the monk was preparing for the wizard's preparations, not the other way around.



Very true.  The monk would have to try to counter some tactic they thought the wizard would employ.  If the monk knows what the wizard is going to do and the wizard is still clueless, the monk CAN win and will have a good chance.  The thing is if the wizard knows what the monk has planned the wizard WILL win and there is no chance for the monk.

In other words, I was making a new point based on what I read... not accusing anyone of having said those words before.


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## Macbrea (Oct 21, 2005)

In a sense, I tried to counter any tactic a wizard might employ.   By simply walling yourself off and doing your own prep work. Then summoning the wizard with a wish spell. You very quickly counter alot of stuff the wizard had done.    The wizard is left outside the wall of force trying to figure a good way to take it down. If he realizes it is up in the first place.


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## Arkhandus (Oct 21, 2005)

For my example, at least, I was using 3.0 core, because 3.5 core includes even more cheese for the wizard.  Many of the things Thanee has mentioned, for instance, weren't in 3.0 core, so the monk's best chance in this comparison is 3.0 core; 3.5 just gives even more goodies to the wizard so he has even more/better ways to screw over everyone else without even picking up a supplement.

A monk's save bonuses and Spell Resistance are nothing to a high-level wizard with Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Headband of Intellect, the appropriate Tome that boosts Int, etc.  Supplemental material, such as Spellcasting Prodigy, Metamagic Rods, and so on are really just gravy for the wizard.

As I already pointed out in my example, which applies about as well in 3.5 too, the monk really doesn't have a chance of resisting the wizard's spells often enough; he only has a small chance of avoiding or resisting any given spell.  The wizard WILL destroy the monk with one death spell or another; even if the monk is protected against death effects somehow, a Prismatic Spray or Heightened Flesh To Stone will still lay waste to the monk easily.  The wizard's defensive spells, combined with Time Stop, will allow him to resist or avoid the monk's feeble attempts at putting up a fight, long enough for the wizard to utterly annihilate the monk.

The monk has a meager, though not impossible, chance of overcoming the wizard.  Forcecage could work, but it could also be countered one way or another, and the wizard doesn't need it anyway.  Any Wish the monk could make with a Ring of Three Wishes could be countered by the wizard making his own Wish, if even necessary, and I'm quite certain the wizard wouldn't fail any saves against the monk's attempted Wishes (except on a natural 1, so a 5% chance that the wizard could die to a Wish, Quivering Palm, or the like; but who's to say he won't have a Contingency up before that point that will teleport his corpse to his favorite temple, to be True Resurrected by his onetime cleric comrade?  And then proceed to teleport back and massacre the monk).

Keep in mind that wizards, at high level, pretty much as a rule will have 18+ Intelligence, which is GENIUS-level intellect.  Anyone who doesn't take that into account is doing the wizard a disservice and completely forsaking realism in the situation.  Especially since any wizard who has survived to 20th-level is going to be quite experienced in combat.


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## Arkhandus (Oct 21, 2005)

In any case, all the Wizard really needs to do is Wish the monk's possessions away, or Disjunction to hapless monk and ruin the monk's foolish plan of using magical items to overcome a master of magic who needs no such crutch.  A wizard can overcome material needs through Spell Mastery and Eschew Materials in most cases.  Even if the monk were to Wish away the wizard's gear, the wizard could probably still mop the floor with the monk and then retrieve his gear.  Unlike the monk, the wizard isn't limited by the number of wishes contained in an item, and isn't limited by the base save DC for them (23 for Wish; the wizard I partially statted up earlier would have another +10 or so to the DC when casting it).


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## Bryan898 (Oct 21, 2005)

> The higher point buy is to the monk's advantage right there. That's part of the problem - most characters aren't built on that many points.




IME actually most characters are built on that many points.  IIRC there was a poll a while back on ENworld and most groups used 32 point buy.  The higher point buy is in no way to the monk's advantage, because the wizard also gains the higher point buy.  It's not like the monk gets extra points.



> But they keep you occupied, which is the point. And a greater air elemental's unmodified attack bonus is +23. Four of them slamming you twice per round will hit your 37 AC 2.4 times per round, for an average of 14 points of damage per hit, or 33.6 points of damage per round. Throw in a couple of attack spells to target you, and your monk is hurting.




How exactly does the Wizard get 4 greater air elementals, and what is the monk doing while this happens?  Not too mention only a dumb monk would focus on the air elementals instead of going after the wizard.



> Did you miss the terms of the debate? "Core rules only". A greater rod of sudden quicken is core. A home-brewed antimagic field is not. You can forget all of your house rules about what you would and would not allow - they are inapplicable.




No I understood perfectly the rules of the debate.  There are core rules for creating items that aren't specifically in the magical items section of the DMG.  It's on page 285 of the DMG.  Making an item that could use Antimagic field is core by the rules.



> Against which, you have no means of retaliating. You're in a dimension locked forcecage remember? He only has to reel off a couple of those, a couple of horrid wiltings, even a series of magic missiles and you aren't doing much of anything any more.




I tire of the resort to forcecage arguement.  Here's an idea, the monk buys 3-5 rod's of cancellation for 11,000 each... no more forcecages.  So now what ya gonna do? 



> You are forgetting things like luckstones, pale green ioun stones, and so on. Just those two items added reduce the chance of failure to 40%.




True, but the monk could have diverted more points into his Wis, or taken the feat Ability Focus (Quiverring Palm) to add +2 to the DC.  Ability Focus is Core btw, and is found in the back of the MM.  They are listed as typically only being used by monsters, not exclusively.  The fact that Awesome Blow is listed as a possible Fighter bonus feat and the recent statement by WotC that the monk may take Improved Natural Attack further cement this statement.  The monk could easily improve the DC of Quiverring Palm to 33.



> And if the monk doesn't get the wizard off the bat, the monk is almost certainly dead. The wizard just has too many options to lock down and destroy the monk.




Yeah, but if the wizard doesn't get the monk off the bat he's almost certainly dead as well.  Also, the only real viable way I've seen to lock down the monk is to rely on forcecage, and I've provided a simple solution above.



> I don't need to know. If I win initative, I lock him down in the first round and finish him off however I want. If I lose Initiative, I know what he's going to do - because he does it. Then I react once he's committed.[/.quote]
> 
> No, you lock him down, it's his turn he escapes + a move, and you're back to where you started.


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## Bryan898 (Oct 21, 2005)

> Just a few more questions I had. If the wizard uses true strike and otto's irresistable dance, is there a way for the wizard not to have to run up to the monk to touch him? I think that any smart monk will not stand close enough for the wizard to do this. The monk will either close completely, or stay 40 feet away ready to close next round.




A very interesting point, and with the monk's speed of 90+ it's near impossible for the wizard to move in close enough without the monk getting a chance to attack.


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## Bryan898 (Oct 21, 2005)

Thanee said:
			
		

> With Moment of Prescience.




Ouch... darn Moment of Prescience... that does increase the chances of the first save enough to effect the likelyhood of the outcome.  Score 2 points for the wizard.



> That's right, but what does it matter, eventually the monk will fail his save. It's not like the wizard can't wait for a few days.




True but we run the risk of this going from a duel to a long term feud.



> Didn't they know about ring of counterspells?




Yes, but that and the chance of failing are why you buy more than one scroll.  I was just demonstrating that a simple spell can cause all this well timed planning to fall apart.



> How about Shapechange? Or Gate for the 'summons'; 40 HD outsiders can be quite nasty.




Shapechange is another good option- change into something with a high Con to increase that Fort save and decrease the monk's chances dramatically.  

Gate is also a good option, but you'd have to assume extra XP.  Otherwise you couldn't cast the spell as stated on page 174 of the PHB. I quote: "You cannot spend so much XP that you lose a level, so you cannot cast the spell unless you have enough XP to spare."  That would also rule out Wish btw.  However, you could choose to remain as 19th level and use the XP for those spells, as stated after the above quote.


The Moment of Presience against his save definetely puts a damper on the monk.  That probably swings thing in the wizards favor IMO.  However, I still think the monk stands a chance, even though the class is horribly underpowered.  The only thing a monk is good at is killing spellcasters, you'd expect him to have the upper hand when doing the only thing he's good at.  In all truth, the monk should be able to kill the wizard 90% of the time if they had made him capable of doing his job.  The wizard on the other hand is geared towards other areas then monk killing, so this change wouldn't unbalance the class in the least.


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## Thanee (Oct 21, 2005)

Lamoni said:
			
		

> In other words, I was making a new point based on what I read... not accusing anyone of having said those words before.




I see, sorry, if that came across wrong. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Oct 21, 2005)

Bryan898 said:
			
		

> However, I still think the monk stands a chance, even though the class is horribly underpowered.




As soon as there are dice involved, there is also a chance, yeah. But it's very slim.



> The only thing a monk is good at is killing spellcasters, you'd expect him to have the upper hand when doing the only thing he's good at.




I absolutely don't see how this is true. The monk is fairly well protected against magic, but has pretty much nothing (apart from the Stunning Fist/Quivering Palm thing) to do anything *against* the spellcasters. They are really not that good at killing spellcasters IMHO, they are good at surviving. That's something they definitely are. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Oct 21, 2005)

Bryan898 said:
			
		

> We'll not bring wishes into the equation please.




Forgot to answer this... I meant _luckblade_ without _Wish_, just the basic one for ~20k.

Very good item. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Zimbel (Oct 21, 2005)

*1e Monk*



			
				Shadowdweller said:
			
		

> The monk has NEVER been anything other than a skirmisher-type class.  Not since it's inception in 1e.  The problem is that people see a high unarmed base damage and a high number of attacks and think "Oooh, this guy must be good at fighting."



Actually, in 1E, I found them to be pretty good damage dealers (if their to hits were a bit lower than a Fighter or subclass of the Fighter). At low levels (kinda like 3.0) you needed to ignore your natural attacks, and use polearms instead(okay- in 3.0, you needed to use Monk Weapons). Then, at high levels (if you ever got there), with more damage than many fighters/average attack and more attacks, you cleaned up against relatively low AC oponents (which at the highest levels was pretty much everyone- remeber the -10 cap on AC)


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## Kristivas (Oct 21, 2005)

Basically, it's all coming down to player skill/deviousness at this point.  There are some great wizard strategies (forcecage, contingency, ect.) and counters by the monk (ring with disentegrate or helm of teleportation, ect).  No 2 players will be 100% even when it comes to skill, so that's going to be the deciding factor.

Well, that and the dice rolls.  If the monk makes every save long enough to do his hand-to-hand dps against the wizard, the Gandalf is going to end up with his staff lodged somewhere in the depths of Mordor, if ya know what I mean.

On the other hand, if Jet Li rolls a 1 on his first save, he's not coming back for a sequel.

It only takes one spell from a wizard and one hit from a monk (stun/quivering) for either of them to drop the other.  It's skill and dice rolls (assuming the gear and environment gave both an equal advantage).

Arena-style can favor the wizard, unless ALL spells have to be cast after the battle begins and neither can have active spells on them before someone says 'go' (no pre-casting contingencies) and if there's no leaving the arena until the fight is over..  both of which is something I would impose if I were wanting to see these two powerful figures fight for my amusement/curiosity.

Monks can have a great advantage if they meet the wizard in a random encounter sometime during a random day.  The wizard may have already exhausted some spells and the monk may use hide and MS to get close.

While I would most certainly favor the wizard, I think everyone that says the monk would just get annihilated every time is just underestimating the class (which isn't that great, but useful against casters) and the skill of the person controlling the character.


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## Kristivas (Oct 21, 2005)

I'm pretty much going to stop using the monk for my games.  If someone really wants to play one, I won't say no.  I think UFC-style fighting is much better and more realistic than Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon-style anyway.  This post has shown me that unless the monk is TOTALLY min/maxed for encounters at the high level, that he's just going to get his behind handed to him.

If I want someone to scout ahead, I'll send the rogue..  or just summon some goblin minions and make them open the doors/run down the hallways.


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## Zimbel (Oct 21, 2005)

*Monks & Neckalces of Fireballs*



			
				Macbrea said:
			
		

> It is possible to design a monk that is absolutely cheesy for a single 20th level combat. Take this example:
> 
> Monk 20.  Items 20 Necklace of fireballs type VII in sack. 1 type 2 necklace of fireballs in which he has one 2d6 fireball in his hand.  All the feats and dex raising items he can get so that his initiative allows him to go first and one ring of fire resistance.  He moves to within 20 feet and drops the the fireball. Declares he allows himself to be hit by the 2d6 blast. All the fireballs need to suddenly make a save as if they were effected by magic fire.  Total damage when they finally go up equals 1174 d 6 damage in which the wizard will get to save for half damage.  The monk with improved evasion is very likely to ignore all damage completely. And even if he does get hit, it is very likely he will live through the number of items he fails.
> 
> ...




Maybe it's just my particular PC (she had a low Con compared to a good d4 class build), but around LV 14 or so, my Sorcerer started investing in the highest Fire Res item possible (so as not to die from fire attacks/spells, which is the most common type). In 3.5, it's even better (if more expensive), since on a failed save versus a 10d6 fireball, you'd take 5 points, on average, per fireball (as opposed to the resistance taking effect 1/round). At this level, the Wizard isn't going to fail many saves.

So against such a preped wizard, this tactic would cause around 160 points assuming all failed saves. That's enough to kill a Wizard that isn't high Con, or shapechanged to be fire immune. Unfortunately, the save DC is only 14. A Wiz of this level would have at least a +5 (Res) +6 (base) +1 (Dex) = +12 to their save, which suggests a 5% failure rate. Even on max damage, a Wizard takes 0 points on a made save.

This gives roughly an average of 8 points of damage. Even octupling this (64), assuming that some of the relevant fireballs against which saves are failed (might as well not bother with the 5d6 and lower ones) have substantially higher than average damage, this won't kill a average HP for a +1 Con Wiz (and frankly, a Wiz with a +1 to Con and no other HP source is unlikely to have lived to this level): 71

As a more minor point, the Monk *will* take 0 damage. Their SR may not be very good against a LV 20 Wiz, but it's plenty against an item that has a 0% chance of beating it.


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## Zimbel (Oct 21, 2005)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> An arena setting is not really a fair test of which character is "superior."



I agree here. Here's how I'd determine it:
1) Set up a variety of encounters, say 4 of them. Make 'em around EL 20 (19-21). Try to vary the types wildly.
2) Create 5 PCs- say 1 rogue, 1 Fighter, 1 Cleric, 1 Monk, and 1 Wiz. All LV 20.
3) Try out the above encounters, 1 after another with the following parties:
   A) 1 rogue, 1 Fighter, 1 Cleric, 1 Monk
   B) 1 rogue, 1 Fighter, 1 Cleric, 1 Wizard
4) At the end of each party's encounters, look at the resources expended by the control PCs (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue), as well as any 1 use items by the test PC. Did they survive? Were all the enounters successfully completed? How many spells/HP/1 use items were used?
5) Declare the class with the least control resources (and 1 use items) weighed by their power/cost that were consumed the stronger class.

I have not attempted this per se, but I've seen encounters with and without a LV 20 sorcerer, and with and without a LV 20 mainliner, and frankly the first is a huge difference in the other PC's survivability; the second is a minor effect. Same with a (LV 18 in this case) Cleric vs a mainliner.


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## Shadowdweller (Oct 21, 2005)

Bryan898 said:
			
		

> However, I still think the monk stands a chance, even though the class is horribly underpowered. The only thing a monk is good at is killing spellcasters, you'd expect him to have the upper hand when doing the only thing he's good at.



 Before you make such a sweeping statement, keep in mind that the classes have never been balanced _fighting against each other._  Against many enemies, particularly high-level outsiders with all sorts of spell-like abilities, yet not quite the breadth or versatility of a Wizard, having a grade-A skirmisher can make a BIG difference (even though sadly lacking in the DR bypassing category).  A monk CAN serve as the party's front-liner, you just have to be a lot more careful and tactically-oriented to pull it off.


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## Bryan898 (Oct 21, 2005)

Shadowdweller said:
			
		

> Before you make such a sweeping statement, keep in mind that the classes have never been balanced fighting against each other. Against many enemies, particularly high-level outsiders with all sorts of spell-like abilities, yet not quite the breadth or versatility of a Wizard, having a grade-A skirmisher can make a BIG difference (even though sadly lacking in the DR bypassing category). A monk CAN serve as the party's front-liner, you just have to be a lot more careful and tactically-oriented to pull it off.




I fail to see why the classes have never been balanced fighting against each other, or could not be.  Is the idea of a monk opposing an evil wizard in the game that ludicrous?  Do the PCs not fight the evil fighter warlord, or the kobold theif?  They should be balanced for fighting each other because they DO fight each other and quite commonly at that.

As for serving as the party's front liner, I don't think monks can do it very well.  Even if they can, the other classes like Paladin, Fighter, and Barbarian do it better.  They lack the ability to soak damage due to lower hit points.  They lack the ability to deal good amounts of damage.  They lack a good BAB.  They can't break the DR of most creatures.  If a 20th level monk were to go up against say a Balor (a CR 20 creature), the Balor would pound him into the ground.  He has no way of breaking the Balor's DR of 15/cold iron and good.  He can't afford to use Power Attack due to his low Bab, his MAD will cause him to generally have only a mediocre strength, and he can't take weapon specialization. With Improved Natural Attack and an Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 he deals 2d8+5+Str, to do five points of damage on average to the Balor he needs a +6 Str.  Sure he can withstand the Balor's spell-like abilities, but his physical attacks will tear the monk apart.  I admit, I did pick one of the bigger creatures, but the same 20th level monk would have the same problems with a CR 16 Horned Devil.  Heck, I'd say even a solitary Elder Earth Elemental (CR 11) could possibly whack the 20th level monk.  (Off topic, but when did the Horned Devil (Cornugon) pass up the Ice Devil (Gelugon)?  As far as I remember the Gelugon was the more powerful of the two, now its a CR 13 vrs CR 16.)

My point is that a monk has very little to bring to the table except: Mobility, Spell Resistance, the highest saves, and a few Fort or stun/die abilities.  He makes a decent skirmisher, but the Scout works better IMO.  His abilities are exactly the abilities you need to have a chance of fighting off a spellcaster, but he's poor at even that.


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## tylermalan (Oct 21, 2005)

I agree that the Monk is NOT the front-liner of choice, they just don't have what's necessary to tank, be it in the damage-taking category, or the damage-dealing category.  On that note, I can't see why I would use a Monk to scout when I could use a ranger or rogue instead.

But on topic, what have we decided is the best strategy for both (not considering Wishes)?  I think the Wizard is Time Stop, Contingency, Teleport, Horrid Wilting, Finger of Death, Scry, and Disjunction with a ridiculous Intelligence.
I think the Monk is, what, maybe Stun/Quivering Palm?  But how is the Monk going to get around the Contingency?  Plus, he'll need a HIGH Fort.  

Is this about what it boils down to?


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## Nail (Oct 21, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> And more to the point, all you prove by bringing them up is that, once again, when someone talks about something that varies from most people's experience, that their opinion really stems from a series of house rules that they have adopted that have changed the baseline assumed by the game.



 This point is so often true, it's silly.    

"If you are having trouble in your game, take a hard look at your list of House Rules.  Some of them might not be as clever as you thought."


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## Nail (Oct 21, 2005)

Macbrea said:
			
		

> In a sense, I tried to counter any tactic a wizard might employ.   By simply walling yourself off and doing your own prep work.



Mordenkainen's Disjunction

What Ring of Greater Spell Storing?


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## Zimbel (Oct 21, 2005)

*What would make a "fair" arena*

I propose turning the question slightly: "How would an arena need to be modified to give the Wizard and Monk closer to an equal chance of winning" (other that the arena, we use the original suggestion). Some ideas:
1) Top the Ceiling at, say, 15'. This reduces the advantage of Fly.
2) Make the Ceiling, walls, and floor out of exotica. Like layered walls of force layerd with Prismatic Walls (or a simular effect- the Prismatic wall has to be verticle). Hit the entire internal area with Dimensional Lock.
3) Give a lot of really good cover (lead-lined cubbyholes made out of force?), and a significant amount of concealment.
4) Limit line of sight to a short distance.
5) Do not limit hearing.
6) Have numerous antimagic and/or Wild Magic fields. Have them move, either randomly or in patterns which aren't trivially discernable.
7) Have numerous mechanical and magical traps in the arena, some of which are non-trivial for summoned creatures to trigger. Make the vast majority of them reflex-save based.

I think that all of these combined may be close to evening the odds.


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## Macbrea (Oct 21, 2005)

Well, Lets figure out what a wizard really would have for DCs:

Start Int 18    
LvL Int +5
Book Int +5
Headband +6
= Int 34 = +12 bonus

Assume feat Spell penetration for +2 DC.

10 + 9th level spell + 12 + 2 = DC 33


All magic items need to roll a 12 or higher to survive a mord's disjunction. That by the way is probably the best bang for the buck the wizard can start with on a fighter type.


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## Artoomis (Oct 21, 2005)

Nail said:
			
		

> Mordenkainen's Disjunction
> 
> What Ring of Greater Spell Storing?




1. Will Save

2. Monks should carry a minor artifact.



> Even artifacts are subject to disjunction, though there is only a 1% chance per caster level of actually affecting such powerful items. Additionally, if an artifact is destroyed, you must make a DC 25 Will save or permanently lose all spellcasting abilities. (These abilities cannot be recovered by mortal magic, not even miracle or wish.)




20% chance.  Wizards don't normally cast this spell as being WAY too risky.


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## Nail (Oct 21, 2005)

Of course there's a Will save.  

....and now the Monk can purchase a Minor Artifact?   Please.


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## Artoomis (Oct 21, 2005)

Nail said:
			
		

> Of course there's a Will save.
> 
> ....and now the Monk can purchase a Minor Artifact?   Please.




Perhaps not, but, most importantly, the wizard should NOT be able to count on him NOT having one.

Otherwise M' Disjunction becomes a freebie that it's not supposed to be.


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## Nail (Oct 21, 2005)

Macbrea said:
			
		

> 10 + 9th level spell + 12 + 2 = DC 33.



And the Mnk's Will save could be 12(class) +5(cloak) +6(wisdom) = +23 .....or some such.  (That's just an eye-balled save.)

So slightly less than half of the Mnk 20's magic items would be gone, and all of his active buffs, etc.  Timing, as in all things high-level, would be everything.


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## Nail (Oct 21, 2005)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> Perhaps not, but, most importantly, the wizard should NOT be able to count on him NOT having one.



Atoomis: The only way the Monk can win is if he has a minor artifact?   Are you being serious?


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## Macbrea (Oct 21, 2005)

Technically. the monk is better off in any fight versus a wizard to start by using a ring of spell storing with an antimagic field in it. Or a ring of wishes to wish for that antimagic field.  The wizard should always open up with Mord's disjunction and Force cage.  

Heck, isn't worred about the junk that monk is keeping on him!


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## Macbrea (Oct 21, 2005)

Got a silly question on Mord's disjunction. Does the monk loose the inherit bonuses gained from a manual or tome when hit by it?


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## Artoomis (Oct 21, 2005)

Macbrea said:
			
		

> Got a silly question on Mord's disjunction. Does the monk loose the inherit bonuses gained from a manual or tome when hit by it?




No.


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## Artoomis (Oct 21, 2005)

Nail said:
			
		

> Atoomis: The only way the Monk can win is if he has a minor artifact?   Are you being serious?




No.  But if there is a chance the monk has any artifact, even very minor one, then the wizard will NOT use M's Disjunction.


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## Artoomis (Oct 21, 2005)

M's Disjunction ends ALL spells (no save) and possibly items (Will Save), right?

Why not have it in a ring of spell storing, major for the monk?  First action, end all buffs for the wizard plus a lot of items, too.


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## Thanee (Oct 21, 2005)

Well, if the monk does anything, that does not immediately kill the wizard, the monk is actually pretty much dead afterwards (not immediately, but effectively). 

Bye
Thanee


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## tylermalan (Oct 21, 2005)

Zimbel said:
			
		

> I propose turning the question slightly: "How would an arena need to be modified to give the Wizard and Monk closer to an equal chance of winning" (other that the arena, we use the original suggestion). Some ideas:
> 1) Top the Ceiling at, say, 15'. This reduces the advantage of Fly.
> 2) Make the Ceiling, walls, and floor out of exotica. Like layered walls of force layerd with Prismatic Walls (or a simular effect- the Prismatic wall has to be verticle). Hit the entire internal area with Dimensional Lock.
> 3) Give a lot of really good cover (lead-lined cubbyholes made out of force?), and a significant amount of concealment.
> ...




So then, pretty much what you're saying is that the Wizard is way better than the Monk, so much so that to make the odds "even", you have to take away a ton of the Wizard's inherent, class-based advantages?  I'm not prodding, I'm actually asking if that's the point you're trying to get across.


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## tylermalan (Oct 21, 2005)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Well, if the monk does anything, that does not immediately kill the wizard, the monk is actually pretty much dead afterwards (not immediately, but effectively).
> 
> Bye
> Thanee




Again, I agree.  The Monk doesn't exactly have days to waste NOT killing the Wizard, because as soon as the Wizard gets a chance, he's going to take it, and the Monk, in all probability, will only survive if the rolls are in his favor.  But like I said, in all probability...


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## Nail (Oct 21, 2005)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> M's Disjunction ends ALL spells (no save) and possibly items (Will Save), right?
> 
> Why not have it in a ring of spell storing, major for the monk?  First action, end all buffs for the wizard plus a lot of items, too.



Good call.

The problem is that then the wizard gets to act....and he's got more spells.

Let's ground this discussion, shall we?  --> "Is there something that the Monk can do, that other classes *can't* do, that dooms the poor Wiz 20?

If the Monk's only hope is magic items, I think we've answered the over-arching question.


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## tylermalan (Oct 21, 2005)

Good question, can any of the Monk enthusiasts answer it with an answer that hasn't already been given (and consequently, shown to have been not that effective)?


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## Shadowdweller (Oct 21, 2005)

Macbrea said:
			
		

> Assume feat Spell penetration for +2 DC.
> 
> 10 + 9th level spell + 12 + 2 = DC 33



Err...Spell Penetration applies to SR checks, not save DCs.  That little +2 is equivalent to BOTH Spell Focus: Abjuration AND Greater Spell Focus: Abjuration (two whole feats!).



			
				Nail said:
			
		

> If the Monk's only hope is magic items, I think we've answered the over-arching question.



 Well, one thing the monk can do is close effectively and nonmagically after activating Antimagic Field (say by Ring of Spell Storing).


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## Lamoni (Oct 21, 2005)

I know this strays a little from the thread, but I'd like to ask this.  Which non full casting class would have the best odds against the level 20 wizard?

I would guess Paladin... if he wins initiative, there is a good chance he can close the distance and obliterate the wizard in one attack.  Of course a mounted fighter may do the same thing, but the Paladin's mount could better contribute to the attack... and the Paladin would have a chance of surviving one round from the wizard if he had to with better saves.

Anyway, I find it funny that this thread has gone on so long when no one is disagreeing that the wizard wins most of the time.  The arguing is over how much of a chance the monk can have.  From what I've seen in playing D&D, even a low level party can take out a dragon... if they buy the right scrolls and the dragon allows them to approach (isn't expecting a fight).  There are WAY too many variables to decide the outcome without seeing the given scenario.  

Also, in response to Nail's question...







> Is there something that the Monk can do, that other classes can't do, that dooms the poor Wiz 20?



Obviously not.  However, if you want to discount magic items, then you have eliminated a huge portion of D&D.  All classes depend on magic items and they should.  Spellcasters don't rely on the magic items as heavily, but they still certainly use them.  And why eliminate magic items from the equation without eliminating all magic?  It is just something that should never be done.


----------



## Klaus (Oct 22, 2005)

So can ANY class take on a Wizard 20?

Sorcerer?

Cleric?

Druid?

Psion?

Anyone else?


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## Rkhet (Oct 22, 2005)

All of the pure casters (i.e. any class with access to lvl 9 spells or equivalent psionics), properly prepared, has a chance.  The fighter types and the rogue types are boned, though.


----------



## moritheil (Oct 23, 2005)

Bryan898 said:
			
		

> IME actually most characters are built on that many points.  IIRC there was a poll a while back on ENworld and most groups used 32 point buy.  The higher point buy is in no way to the monk's advantage, because the wizard also gains the higher point buy.  It's not like the monk gets extra points.




Please stop talking about all your campaign specifics.  Other people have called you out on this, yet you persist.  You're hurting America.




> How exactly does the Wizard get 4 greater air elementals, and what is the monk doing while this happens?  Not too mention only a dumb monk would focus on the air elementals instead of going after the wizard.




Gate, maybe?  How about whirlwind form?  They can just suck him up.  It's going to take him a little time to escape their clutches, even if he can fly.



> No I understood perfectly the rules of the debate.  There are core rules for creating items that aren't specifically in the magical items section of the DMG.  It's on page 285 of the DMG.  Making an item that could use Antimagic field is core by the rules.




Dead wrong.  Magic item creation for unspecified items is OPTIONAL.  It is always subject to DM whimsy.




> I tire of the resort to forcecage arguement.  Here's an idea, the monk buys 3-5 rod's of cancellation for 11,000 each... no more forcecages.  So now what ya gonna do?




Did the monk have enough ranks in Knowledge (arcana) to know to do that?



> Yeah, but if the wizard doesn't get the monk off the bat he's almost certainly dead as well.  Also, the only real viable way I've seen to lock down the monk is to rely on forcecage, and I've provided a simple solution above.
> 
> No, you lock him down, it's his turn he escapes + a move, and you're back to where you started.




He can't escape.  Haven't they been talking about quickening dimension lock, or hitting him with QTS+Otto?  I've only seen you respond with, "Well, IMC we don't do it that way, so I refuse to talk about it," or some variant thereof.


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## moritheil (Oct 23, 2005)

Lamoni said:
			
		

> Maybe there wasn't another one.  But I know that gate was mentioned as a buffing spell that can be cast during a time stop.  That does have a significant XP cost with it.
> Very true.  The monk would have to try to counter some tactic they thought the wizard would employ.  If the monk knows what the wizard is going to do and the wizard is still clueless, the monk CAN win and will have a good chance.  The thing is if the wizard knows what the monk has planned the wizard WILL win and there is no chance for the monk.
> 
> In other words, I was making a new point based on what I read... not accusing anyone of having said those words before.






			
				Artoomis said:
			
		

> Perhaps not, but, most importantly, the wizard should NOT be able to count on him NOT having one.
> 
> Otherwise M' Disjunction becomes a freebie that it's not supposed to be.




Can we PLEASE stop with the pointless arguments about what each side will or won't know?  The monk is limited in his knowledge of the wizard's capabilities to the knowledge checks he can make.  The wizard can cast a spell or two before the day of the fight and get some greater deities to tell him exactly what he needs to know.


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## Thanee (Oct 23, 2005)

Klaus said:
			
		

> So can ANY class take on a Wizard 20?
> 
> Sorcerer?
> 
> ...




Yep, those are all able to win, some have a slightly lower chance, some a slightly higher chance, depending on circumstances, but it's really just the spellcaster vs. non-spellcaster issues at high levels, which are the 'problem'.

Spellcasting is simply too poweful at high levels for the non-spellcasters to stand a realistic chance.

Bye
Thanee


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## Rassilon (Oct 23, 2005)

Given that we are being silly, how 'bout we make the fight absolutely NAKED. I mean it. I've read the whole thread: The wizard most often beats the monk. 

But now 20th level wizard vs. 20th level monk in some sort of arena. They have each  known from first level that they will fight naked at 20th level (so can choose appropriate feats). (should we ban the monk from having VoP ?)

GO:

Rassilon.


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## Doctor Shaft (Oct 23, 2005)

There's not much difference in a naked fight. Primarily because both the monk and the wizard aren't really helpless when naked.  In fact, the wizard is still more potent than the ever ready monk.  

The monk, naked, starts with 10/magic armor, a single healing spell, some stunning fists, and a really solid, damage reduction penetrating fists with 1d20 damage and some excellent maneuvering, along with evasion and other neat gimmicks.

The monk, clothed, ain't much different.

The wizard, naked, starts with all the awesome spells and strategies that he will use to kill said monk as the wizard that's clothed. A wizard with clothing is merely a wizard with even MORE spells or ever-ready tricks to kill the monk.

The monk's clothing, by comparison, is probably more focused on enhancing the very poor utility of his monk abilities. He wants to raise the DC of this stunning fist, make his attacks actually hit, and maybe increase his AC and some resistances.  After that, he's pretty much spent.  

A wizard can do everything the monk can for free.


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## Shadowdweller (Oct 23, 2005)

Err...there's a HUGE difference in an equipmentless fight.

All non-casting classes rely upon their equipment to make up for their lack of versatility.  Monks are no exception, and need equipment no less than any other non-caster.  Without equipment, the lethality of certain spells (e.g. the oft-mentioned forcecage) increases dramatically.  Fighting "naked", the monk COMPLETELY lacks that tiny chance he otherwise might have to take down the Wizard.


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## Artoomis (Oct 23, 2005)

Shadowdweller said:
			
		

> Err...there's a HUGE difference in an equipmentless fight.
> 
> All non-casting classes rely upon their equipment to make up for their lack of versatility.  Monks are no exception, and need equipment no less than any other non-caster.  Without equipment, the lethality of certain spells (e.g. the oft-mentioned forcecage) increases dramatically.  Fighting "naked", the monk COMPLETELY lacks that tiny chance he otherwise might have to take down the Wizard.




Actually, with absolutely NO equipment the monk wins every time.

No spell book and no spell components.  Wizard cannot even prepare any spells.  Monk wins because he is too fast for the wizard who cannot run away.

Yes, I know this is silly.

Another approach is for the monk to sunder or "disarm" (take) the Wizard's spell component pouch.  No spells that have material componenets certainly reduces the options for the Wizard.  Sunder is easier, as the pouch just might be "well-secured."

Force Cage and most other spells require a material component.  Time Stop and Teleport do not, so the wizard can get away, at the least.

The wizards true weakness is need for his spell book and material components.  Naturally, he will (one hopes) have spares.


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## Bryan898 (Oct 23, 2005)

moretheil said:
			
		

> Please stop talking about all your campaign specifics. Other people have called you out on this, yet you persist. You're hurting America.




How was I talking about my campaign specifics?  Someone tried to argue that 32 point buy was a high point buy when it seems the norm.  Nobody else has called me out on campaign specifics, as I've used none.  As for hurting America, I find it amusing that instead of coming back with a logical arguement against my point you try to make an insult.  This is a debate topic, if you can't stand the other side's debate try to debate back with an arguement, not a childish comment like the one above.



> Gate, maybe? How about whirlwind form? They can just suck him up. It's going to take him a little time to escape their clutches, even if he can fly.




Maybe you should read the spell.  You can summon up to your Caster Level with Gate when summoning multiple creatures.  So you could only summon one at a time, not four as posted before, unless you're spending four rounds casting gate four times.  As for picking them up with their clutches, once again you have not read the ability.  It has a Reflex save DC, the Elder's being a DC 28.  It's not even close to a sure thing that the monk will be picked up give a 20th level monk could have a Ref save of +26 (+12 base, +6 dex, +5 resistance, +1 luckstone +2 lightning reflexes).  Another terrible arguement.



> Dead wrong. Magic item creation for unspecified items is OPTIONAL. It is always subject to DM whimsy.




I wasn't arguing whether or not is was optional or not.  I was arguing whether or not it could be core, and seeing as there are core rules to justify it being made there's no reason to have it otherwise.  As for it being subject to DM whimsy, EVERYTHING is subject to DM whimsy.



> Did the monk have enough ranks in Knowledge (arcana) to know to do that?




Sure why not?  As said by tylermalan, the debate is assuming both have spent their entire lives readying to battle each other.  Therefore, it's very plausible to assume that the monk has researched certain spells or hired someone to research it for him.  Considering the rules of the debate may be helpful before you post such an arguement.



> He can't escape. Haven't they been talking about quickening dimension lock, or hitting him with QTS+Otto? I've only seen you respond with, "Well, IMC we don't do it that way, so I refuse to talk about it," or some variant thereof.




Sure he can, because he bought rod's of cancellation which stop the forcecage.  Or ring's of greater spellstoring with disintegrate in them which other people have mentioned.  

The QTS+Otto was mentioned yes, first by me on the 2nd page post #60, where I said it was one of the better strategies to be employed by the wizard, along with the other spells I would have chosen for the wizard.

As for the response of "In my campaign we don't do it that way" I have yet to discard a strategy based on the way we handle things in my campaign.  I simply stated how we handle the spell, then went on to discuss the strategy I'd use by Core without my campaign specifics.

You should actually read my posts, the rest of the thread, and the spells you're speaking of using before you make an arguement based on them.  So far it seems that you have yet to do so.  Or if you're going to put words in my mouth about "Well, IMC we don't do it that way, so I refuse to talk about it", you should post the quotes that you're referring to.


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## 10th man down (Oct 23, 2005)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> Actually, with absolutely NO equipment the monk wins every time.
> 
> No spell book and no spell components.  Wizard cannot even prepare any spells.  Monk wins because he is too fast for the wizard who cannot run away.




Unfortunately you're wrong in this one. As the wizard knows that he has to fight with no equipment he simply takes Eschew Materials to cast all those spells with inexpensive material components. Moreover he takes Spell Mastery several times as he knows that he won't have access to his spellbook.

End result: Monk 0 Wizard 1


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## moritheil (Oct 23, 2005)

Bryan898 said:
			
		

> Maybe you should read the spell.  You can summon up to your Caster Level with Gate when summoning multiple creatures.  So you could only summon one at a time, not four as posted before, unless you're spending four rounds casting gate four times.  As for picking them up with their clutches, once again you have not read the ability.  It has a Reflex save DC, the Elder's being a DC 28.  It's not even close to a sure thing that the monk will be picked up give a 20th level monk could have a Ref save of +26 (+12 base, +6 dex, +5 resistance, +1 luckstone +2 lightning reflexes).  Another terrible arguement.




That wasn't my idea; it was a throwaway guess on the summoning idea.  But fine.  How about a balor?  What do you propose the monk does when the wizard pulls out a balor (maybe while in TS, as everyone keeps mentioning) and leaves the fight for the balor to clean him up?



> I wasn't arguing whether or not is was optional or not.  I was arguing whether or not it could be core, and seeing as there are core rules to justify it being made there's no reason to have it otherwise.  As for it being subject to DM whimsy, EVERYTHING is subject to DM whimsy.




Like houserules.  Haven't you read the discussions here about how magic item creation is NOT an actual official part of the rules?



> Sure why not?  As said by tylermalan, the debate is assuming both have spent their entire lives readying to battle each other.  Therefore, it's very plausible to assume that the monk has researched certain spells or hired someone to research it for him.  Considering the rules of the debate may be helpful before you post such an arguement.




Then that costs him resources.  You can't give that to the monk for free.  What you're proposing is allowing the monk character to metagame.



> Sure he can, because he bought rod's of cancellation which stop the forcecage.  Or ring's of greater spellstoring with disintegrate in them which other people have mentioned.




But you haven't built a complete monk with all those strategies combined.  Is it cost-efficient? You don't have an infinite amount of money.



> As for the response of "In my campaign we don't do it that way" I have yet to discard a strategy based on the way we handle things in my campaign.  I simply stated how we handle the spell, then went on to discuss the strategy I'd use by Core without my campaign specifics.
> 
> You should actually read my posts, the rest of the thread, and the spells you're speaking of using before you make an arguement based on them.  So far it seems that you have yet to do so.  Or if you're going to put words in my mouth about "Well, IMC we don't do it that way, so I refuse to talk about it", you should post the quotes that you're referring to.




Okay, well, you asked for it.  Coming right up.


----------



## moritheil (Oct 23, 2005)

Bryan898 said:
			
		

> We'll not bring wishes into the equation please.  The game will literally break if you do.  Otherwise my monk buys a ring of wishes and wishes that your wizard forgot all his spells he prepared for the day =P.  Or simply use it to make the saves I fail, or to undo your successful save against my attack, etc.




This was in answer to someone who was talking about using LUCKBLADES.  You know, the ones that let you reroll missed attacks?  Funny how wishes suddenly came into it.  And, you know, when it comes down to it, it's funny how you're avoiding a core wizard spell.  Did you catch the later discussion about how much harder the wizard's wishes are to save against than the monk's.  I did.



			
				Bryan898 said:
			
		

> Forcecage IMO is cheese as well, I don't really allow it in my game, it kind of goes the way of Imprisonment.
> 
> ...
> 
> I've played quite a few high level/ epic games, and I've NEVER seen a fighting class without some form of fly by level 20.




You responded that something was cheese and not allowed in your game.  First time.



			
				Bryan898 said:
			
		

> Another item that I don't allow because of it's horribly broken applications... but yes, allowing these cause much damage.




Again, you refer to things that are banned in your campaign.



> You can't assume that the wizard knows this any more than the monk can assume what wizard spells are going to be used.  You can just prepare against the common spells used in such battles.




Incidentally, this is untrue, as I discussed above.



			
				Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Did you miss the terms of the debate? "Core rules only". A _greater rod of sudden quicken_ is core. A home-brewed antimagic field is not. You can forget all of your house rules about what you would and would not allow - they are inapplicable.




You totally ignored this poster when he pointed out that your houseruled AMF item can be allowed under SUGGESTED rules that HAPPEN to be in some core books, but ARE NOT CORE.  The EN Worlds forum established long ago that the custom build item rules suggested there are actually house-rules, and people discussing magic item creation regularly get asked to take it into the house-rules forum.


Finally, I will prove that other posters have called you out on talking about your own campaign already.



			
				StormRaven said:
			
		

> And more to the point, all you prove by bringing them up is that, once again, when someone talks about something that varies from most people's experience, that their opinion really stems from a series of house rules that they have adopted that have changed the baseline assumed by the game.






			
				Nail said:
			
		

> This point is so often true, it's silly.


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## Bryan898 (Oct 23, 2005)

moretheil said:
			
		

> That wasn't my idea; it was a throwaway guess on the summoning idea. But fine. How about a balor? What do you propose the monk does when the wizard pulls out a balor (maybe while in TS, as everyone keeps mentioning) and leaves the fight for the balor to clean him up?




Yes, a balor would decimate the monk as I said before.  Also, gate is a powerful spell as I admitted before.  However, the chance the monk has revolves around acting before the wizard does, as high level battles often come down to winning initiative.



> Like houserules. Haven't you read the discussions here about how magic item creation is NOT an actual official part of the rules?




Actually no, I haven't.  So instead of assuming that everyone has read that and being a jerk if someone doesn't take it into account, you could have been polite and pointed out the thread the first time around.  Then I could have read it and politely taken back my previous statement about creating items, assuming I agree with the thread.



> Then that costs him resources. You can't give that to the monk for free. What you're proposing is allowing the monk character to metagame.




It's not what I'm proposing, these were the terms and conditions of the contest as stated by the creator of the thread.



> But you haven't built a complete monk with all those strategies combined. Is it cost-efficient? You don't have an infinite amount of money.




No I haven't yet, but could and possibly will.  However, 11,000 gp per wand to stop what is one of the most effective spell combinations against the monk isn't much.



> This was in answer to someone who was talking about using LUCKBLADES. You know, the ones that let you reroll missed attacks? Funny how wishes suddenly came into it. And, you know, when it comes down to it, it's funny how you're avoiding a core wizard spell. Did you catch the later discussion about how much harder the wizard's wishes are to save against than the monk's. I did.




A.) The purpose for the Luckblades is the +1 to saving throws, not to reroll the miss chance on an attack.
B.) I'm not ignoring wish nor contesting the use of it.  I was implying that if wish is allowed in this debate it should be to the terms allowed in the PhB.  What I am contesting is using it in terms of the more powerful abilities that are under the DM jurisdiction, those that go above and beyond the power of those listed, such as the example I stated of wishing the opposing wizard forgets all his spells.
C.) To cast Wish in this example fight, it would need to start at least +5000 XP above 20th level, or the Wizard would need to start at 19th level with enough XP to be 20th level.  The reason for this being that one cannot cast a spell with an XP component if the required XP would drop him a level (page 174 "XP Cost", PhB).



> You responded that something was cheese and not allowed in your game. First time.




This was in reference to Forcecage.  Yes, I do believe it is cheese, and should have gone the way of most no save spells in the 3.5 change (Harm, Imprisonment, others).  However, I simply stated my opinion, but continued to argue strategies against Forcecage and take it into account as a viable strategy for the wizard to take in this exercise.  I in no way said that Forcecage should be disallowed, and was simply stating an opinion, not making an arguement on it.



> Again, you refer to things that are banned in your campaign.




Quote referred to Greater Metamagic Rod of Quickening.  Once again, simply opinion, I still took into account the existence of the Rod in Core rules, and its effect on the duel.  I didn't argue for it to be disallowed, nor did I not take it into effect in stating strategies against it.



> You totally ignored this poster when he pointed out that your houseruled AMF item can be allowed under SUGGESTED rules that HAPPEN to be in some core books, but ARE NOT CORE. The EN Worlds forum established long ago that the custom build item rules suggested there are actually house-rules, and people discussing magic item creation regularly get asked to take it into the house-rules forum.




Once again I had not read the En Worlds thread on establishing what is core or not about item creation.  However, I was merely making a point that the monk could get access to an Anti-Magic Field, which he still can through a ring of major spell storing if he chooses to go that route.

As to the others calling me out- that was in reference to the AMF item stated above.  The decision that item creation rules weren't core as decided by EN World (if such a decision is theirs to make and not WotC), had not been brought to my attention as of yet.

You accuse me of using my house rules to justify my arguement for the monk, however the only presumbly house rule item or rule I used was the AMF item, which was admittedly brought up due to a lack of knowledge about about a different thread.  The other's were simply stated opinion, and in no way shaped my arguement as what I put as banned in my campaign I still put strategies out that took them into account.  Now if you wish to debate, how about we get back to the thread topic and discontinue our hijack?


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## Bryan898 (Oct 23, 2005)

> Let's ground this discussion, shall we? --> "Is there something that the Monk can do, that other classes can't do, that dooms the poor Wiz 20?




A.) As far as fighter-type classes go:  Move extremely fast to close with the monk in one round up to 180 feet away with a charge.  This becomes moot in an open area, but in a more cramped area such as a dungeon could be effective.  Once magical flight becomes a factor, most speeds will even out, though the wizard will have the advantage of being able to shapechange or polymorph into a creature with a faster natural fly speed.  However, in a more cramped area where the ceiling is within the range of a monk's jump on a charge it is effective.  This is because many spells that have been outlined in the wizard's capabilities are at a range of close which maximizes at 75'.  To move and cast a close range spell the wizard must be within 135' (60' fly movement), which could allow the monk to charge on his turn.  A quickened teleport admittedly stops this advantage, and it is limited by terrain.

B.) Have an ability that could conceivable end the fight with a Fort save.  No other fighter class has a similar ability, and the Wizard's weak save is his Fort save.

C.) Have saves that give him a chance to continually make his saves.

D.) Have an ability to turn ethereal, which makes him immune to most of the wizards spells, save force effects, and may give him a chance to close with the wizard.

That would be about it IMO.


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## Shadowdweller (Oct 23, 2005)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> Actually, with absolutely NO equipment the monk wins every time.
> 
> No spell book and no spell components.  Wizard cannot even prepare any spells.  Monk wins because he is too fast for the wizard who cannot run away.
> 
> ...



 Err...what 10th man down said.  Yes, I admit Forcecage was a bad example.  But there will still be a number of spells the monk will be utterly unable to deal with.


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## Bryan898 (Oct 23, 2005)

Here's my Monk that I hope would stand a chance against a Wizard:  20th level, 28 pt buy, 760,000 starting wealth (DMG pg 135).

Human Monk 20; HD 20d8+100 (average 193); Init +11; Spd 90', fly 60' (boots); AC 37 t 33, ff 30 (+7 Dex, +11 Wis, +4 class bonus, +1 luck, +4 bracers of armor); Bab/Grp +15/+19; Atk unarmed strike +22 melee (3d8+4); Full Attack +22/+22/+22/+17/+12 melee (3d8+4); SA Flurry of blows, quiverring palm (DC 33) 1/day, stunning fist (DC 33) 5/day; SQ abundant step (dimension door CL 10), diamond soul (SR 30), empty body (etherealness 20 rounds/day), evasion, improved evasion, ki strike (adamantine, lawful, and magic), perfect self, purity of body, slow fall (any distance), still mind, timeless body, tongue of the sun and moon, wholeness of body (40 hp/day); AL Lawful Neutral; SV Fort +26 Ref +25 Will +31 (+12 base, +5 resistance, +1 luck: Fort +5 Con +2 feat. Ref +7 Dex. Will +11 Wis, +2 feat); Abilities Str 12 (18- +6 belt) Dex 14 (24- +4 book +6 gloves) Con 14 (20- +4 book +2 ioun stone) Int 10 Wis 16 (32- +5 level +5 book +6 periapt) Cha 8.
     Skills: Escape Artist +31, Hide +31, Jump +52, Knowledge (arcana) +24, Spot +35.
     Feats: Ability Focus (Quiverring Palm), Ability Focus (Stunning Fist), Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike), Iron Will, Power Attack, Weapon Finesse (unarmed strike); Bonus Feats: Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist.
    Possessions
- Stat Related: Book of Wis +5, book of Con +4, book of Dex +4, belt of giant str +6, periapt of wisdom +6, gloves of dexterity +6, ioun stone- incandescent (*473,500 gp)
- Buffs: bracers of armor +4, cloak of resistance +5, ring of protection +5, stone of good luck (+1 luck to saves, ability checks, skill checks) (*111,000 gp)
- Use Activated: boots- winged (fly 3/day), dust of disappearence (x2- invisible but can't be seen by see invisibility or invisibility purge), gem of seeing (true seeing 30 min/day), rod of cancellation (6), figurine of wondrous power- ebony fly (*173,000 gp)


----------



## Anubis (Oct 23, 2005)

Using the current rules, the higher level you go, the more likely the monk will win the duel.  While the spellcasting classes usually start outshining the melee classes at higher levels, the monk is an exception to this due to their monstrous saving throws and numerous special abilities.  At the upper levels, the wizard is unlikely to even be able to hit the monk.  At Level 20+, the monk will almost undoubtedly have a means by which to fly and will have good enough saves so as not to have to worry about instant death spells or _Mordenkainen's disjunction_ (which are the top spells for the wizard).  Energy attacks are useless against monks due to improved evasion, so that means the wizard's only course of action will be _magic missile_.  No dice, the wizard loses.

The monk is the only melee class that can stop the wizard at epic levels, really, almost entirely due to the special abilities and saving throws.

Monks underpowered?  Not even.  That's the funniest thing I ever heard.  They're the second most powerful class out there next to clerics, at least in the core rules (warmage and warlock are both superior using the optional books).


----------



## Shadowdweller (Oct 23, 2005)

You know, if you really want to test this an actual combat should be conducted...and both monk and wizard builds should be built blindly.  Do spoiler tags work in this forum?



Spoiler



Testing...testing



Edit: Nice.  For those who do not know, to use those [spoiler and [/spoiler with proper closing brackets ].  Perhaps a test fight itself is inappropriate here (as opposed to one of the other forums).  But given a dice roller/verifier, such as www.invisiblecastle.com there really shouldn't be any difficulty conducting it.  Slinging opinions and counter-opinions all day long will only get you so far, after all...


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## StreamOfTheSky (Oct 24, 2005)

I personally like monks, weak as they are, and all these people just taking the easy route and repeating for the 20th time what spells will be certain doom for the monk instead of being creative and trying to find ways for the monk to win is just extremely annoying.  Can this thread go 50 words straight without "forcecage" being mentioned?  Some particular issues I have with these arena assumptions:

1) Why does it have to be a flat, wide-open plain?  May as well pit a machine gunner against the monk.  Any *interesting* battlefield should have ample cover, concealment, terrain, etc...  Maybe even weather effects which would, while hurting both classes, certainly hinder spellcasting more.

2)  *Moment of Prescience*:  If it's an arena battle, how is it fair that either character got to take any preparatory actions before the initiative roll?  If the wizard can cast that hours beforehand, and it's OK, why can't the monk nudge his cleric friend to blow a day's worth of buffs on him before the fight, either?  "I'll take GMW, and bless just for the heck of it.  And, ooh, don't go easy on the death ward!"

3) Starting them far apart in plain view of each other is unrealistic, a clear boon to the wizard, and is the primary reason so many people have said that the initiative roll determines the victor.  If they have to start within 100 feet, but can choose to start hiding amongst the bushes or whatever, the fight becomes far more unpredictable.

4) No leaving the arena via teleport or whatever else.  Within the arena is fine, though.  If this really is a spectator thing, the whole teleport back fully prepared thing is just beyond b.s.  Even if it wasn't for entertainment, it's meant to be a decisive, SINGLE battle.  If the wizard can teleport outside, why can't the monk turn ethereal or use his skills to escape as well, taking the fight into the streets?


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## tylermalan (Oct 25, 2005)

Because I would say that the Monk turning ethereal and using Abundant Step to escape has a far less chance of being successful than the Wizard's Contigency Teleport.  Now, that's not to say that the Monk CAN'T do that, but its almost pointless for the Monk to do so.  Escape to the streets when his entire purpose is to close with the Wizard?  Ok, the Wizard blows up the city.  What streets?

In addition, I don't think there is one environment out there that would mean certain doom for the Wizard - no matter how you hack it, the Wizard ALWAYS has the advantage.


----------



## Storm Raven (Oct 25, 2005)

Bryan898 said:
			
		

> IME actually most characters are built on that many points.  IIRC there was a poll a while back on ENworld and most groups used 32 point buy.  The higher point buy is in no way to the monk's advantage, because the wizard also gains the higher point buy.  It's not like the monk gets extra points.




Except that by the rules, that's a "high-powered game". Normal point buy is 22 points, with 24 and 28 being "tough campaign" options.



> _How exactly does the Wizard get 4 greater air elementals, and what is the monk doing while this happens?  Not too mention only a dumb monk would focus on the air elementals instead of going after the wizard._





_Time Stop_. _Summon_, _Summon_, _Summon_, _Summon_. How hard was that?



> _No I understood perfectly the rules of the debate.  There are core rules for creating items that aren't specifically in the magical items section of the DMG.  It's on page 285 of the DMG.  Making an item that could use Antimagic field is core by the rules._





Optional rules. Stated clearly as such. Thus not core.



> _I tire of the resort to forcecage arguement.  Here's an idea, the monk buys 3-5 rod's of cancellation for 11,000 each... no more forcecages.  So now what ya gonna do? _





Great. Now you are spending money on crap of situational value. Being a wizard, I have a vast repertoire of spells that I can use to deal with the monk. If you want to focus on one option, you won't be as good at the others.



> _True, but the monk could have diverted more points into his Wis, or taken the feat Ability Focus (Quiverring Palm) to add +2 to the DC.  Ability Focus is Core btw, and is found in the back of the MM._





Not for PCs. Sorry.



> _They are listed as typically only being used by monsters, not exclusively.  The fact that Awesome Blow is listed as a possible Fighter bonus feat and the recent statement by WotC that the monk may take Improved Natural Attack further cement this statement.  The monk could easily improve the DC of Quiverring Palm to 33._





"Statements from WotC" are not core rules. Sorry.



> _Yeah, but if the wizard doesn't get the monk off the bat he's almost certainly dead as well.  Also, the only real viable way I've seen to lock down the monk is to rely on forcecage, and I've provided a simple solution above._





All the wizard has to do is delay the monk long enough for him to get into the air. Even with _boots of flying_ the monk's flight duration is far less than the wizard's with a _fly_ spell. All the wizard has to do is stay away from the monk until his boots wear off. Then the monk is landbound again.



> _No, you lock him down, it's his turn he escapes + a move, and you're back to where you started._





The wizard is all about delaying the monk and dragging the conflict out to bring his options to bear. The monk spending time dealing with obstacles the wizard has placed in his way works to the wizard's advantage.


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## Sputnick (Oct 25, 2005)

*Real question*

So what class is better suited to take out this 20th lvl wizard, cause of all core classes I think it is the best equiped which is what I've been trying to say....sry for the confusion.


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## Storm Raven (Oct 25, 2005)

Sputnick said:
			
		

> So what class is better suited to take out this 20th lvl wizard, cause of all core classes I think it is the best equiped which is what I've been trying to say....sry for the confusion.




I'd probably go with the cleric or the druid. They have the stamina to last, spells at their disposal, and reasonable fighting capability to boot.


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## 10th man down (Oct 25, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Ability Focus not for PCs




PCs can take it, as explained in the DnD Main FAQ on page 13.

10th


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## Storm Raven (Oct 25, 2005)

10th man down said:
			
		

> PCs can take it, as explained in the DnD Main FAQ on page 13.




Which is interesting, but not part of the core rules.


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## 10th man down (Oct 25, 2005)

Let's take a look at the SRD, Monster Feats:

These feats apply to abilities *most commonly* found amongst monsters or are related to monsters.

Most commonly doesn't mean that they are exclusively reserved to them.

Some examples:

Archmage with the High Arcana Spell-like Ability. Is it a (Sp)? Yes. Is he therefore able to take Empower Spell-like Ability? Yes. It's a [General] feat, therefore open to everyone who meets the prerequisite {PHB/SRD: general, meaning that no special rules govern them as a group} in this case a (Sp) and not a [Monstrous] Feat, which can only be taken be monsters.

Death Attack of an Assassin. Special Attack? Yes. Save DC? Yes. Ability Focus prerequisite: Special Attack:

Stunning Fist/Quivering Palm. Yes and Yes-> eglible for Ability Focus.

DnD Main FAQ: Clarification of the Rules.

10th


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## Bryan898 (Oct 25, 2005)

> Except that by the rules, that's a "high-powered game". Normal point buy is 22 points, with 24 and 28 being "tough campaign" options.




So what?  I'm missing the point of lowering the point buy arguement.  If you lower the point buy then not only does the monk's stats lower but so do the wizard's.  The wizard will need a high Int and decent Con and Dex for hit points and AC/ touch attacks.  The Monk I post needs a high Wis, and decent Dex and Con.  They both require the same attributes and lowering the point buy affects both the same.



> Time Stop. Summon, Summon, Summon, Summon. How hard was that?




Not very.  You cast time stop, assume you get 4 rounds, then summon four greater air elementals.  A 9th level spell, and four 8th level spells or 2-3 more 9th level spells.  Not a very great strategy for the cost.



> Great. Now you are spending money on crap of situational value. Being a wizard, I have a vast repertoire of spells that I can use to deal with the monk. If you want to focus on one option, you won't be as good at the others




Yeah, 11,000 gp out of 760,000 gp isn't a bad deal when forcecage is the most mentioned strategy so far.  You do have a vast repertoire of spells, many of which allow a save, which gives the monk a chance.  Forcecage was one of the strategies that doesn't, and making it moot for a measly 33,000 gp is definetely worth it.



> Not for PCs. Sorry.




Says who?  The people that have the authority to determine the rules says it is, and you're not anyone to say different.  The very text in the monster manual says the feats are typically used only by monsters, not exclusively.  The feats aren't limited to only monsters.  Otherwise, good luck crafting a construct such as golem or shield guardian as its in the MM.



> "Statements from WotC" are not core rules. Sorry.




Once again, it's in the book and nowhere does it state that PCs can't choose the feat.  As for statements from WotC, just because you don't like what they say doesn't mean that its not true.  Like it or not, they make the core rules and it's their right to change them or interpret them as they see fit.  But that's a different discussion.



> All the wizard has to do is delay the monk long enough for him to get into the air. Even with boots of flying the monk's flight duration is far less than the wizard's with a fly spell. All the wizard has to do is stay away from the monk until his boots wear off. Then the monk is landbound again.




And all the monk has to do is go into an enclosed area (such as a dungeon), where flying is not a viable option and wait for the wizard to come and get him.  As the monk doesn't age, and there's no immortality spell for the wizard in the Core rules, eventually the wizard either pursues him or dies of old age.   



> The wizard is all about delaying the monk and dragging the conflict out to bring his options to bear. The monk spending time dealing with obstacles the wizard has placed in his way works to the wizard's advantage.




No, it's your turn, you cast a quickened dimensional lock and forcecage.  It's the monk's turn, he escapes using one of his rod's of cancellation and a move action.  You're back to square one, your turn again, except you're out a 7th level spell, an 8th level spell, and one of three daily uses of a 170,000 gp item.  Meanwhile the monk's out of a measly 11,000 gp item.  This is definetely in the monk's advantage.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Oct 25, 2005)

tylermalan said:
			
		

> Because I would say that the Monk turning ethereal and using Abundant Step to escape has a far less chance of being successful than the Wizard's Contigency Teleport.  Now, that's not to say that the Monk CAN'T do that, but its almost pointless for the Monk to do so.  Escape to the streets when his entire purpose is to close with the Wizard?  Ok, the Wizard blows up the city.  What streets?
> 
> In addition, I don't think there is one environment out there that would mean certain doom for the Wizard - no matter how you hack it, the Wizard ALWAYS has the advantage.




By my arguement I meant to say that if you allow such abilities to enable the monk or wizard to leave the arena, then it's not really an arena battle.  By saying they fight in the arena, whther it be a flat plain or a 10 foot cube, it should be assumed that they STAY in the arena.  Teleporting to another end or screwing with the rate of time flow is perfectly fine INSIDE THE ARENA.  If the wizard teleports away to re-configure his spells, why should the monk have to just wait around.  Any reasonable ruling would call it a retreat by the wizard and give the monk victory by default.

Also, I wasn't trying to think up arenas the were for the single purpose of dooming the wizard.  Just pointing out that without terrain and such, you would be dooming the monk.  Let me put it to you this way:  If it was 200 feet away, no obstacles blocking initial line of sight (or effect) to each other, and the wizard were against an arrow demon class leveled up to ECL 20 instead of the monk, would he still be happy with the starting conditions?  Any battle field that allows the longer ranged guy or the one with the "bigger guns" to pincussion the other guy in the first round seems unbalanced to me.


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## Shadowdweller (Oct 25, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Except that by the rules, that's a "high-powered game". Normal point buy is 22 points, with 24 and 28 being "tough campaign" options.



 By the "normal" rules the standard is 25 (Elite Array).  The average based on the standard 4d6, drop lowest is actually HIGHER. (~28 or so IIRC).


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## tylermalan (Oct 25, 2005)

StreamOfTheSky said:
			
		

> By my arguement I meant to say that if you allow such abilities to enable the monk or wizard to leave the arena, then it's not really an arena battle.  By saying they fight in the arena, whther it be a flat plain or a 10 foot cube, it should be assumed that they STAY in the arena.  Teleporting to another end or screwing with the rate of time flow is perfectly fine INSIDE THE ARENA.  If the wizard teleports away to re-configure his spells, why should the monk have to just wait around.  Any reasonable ruling would call it a retreat by the wizard and give the monk victory by default.
> 
> Also, I wasn't trying to think up arenas the were for the single purpose of dooming the wizard.  Just pointing out that without terrain and such, you would be dooming the monk.  Let me put it to you this way:  If it was 200 feet away, no obstacles blocking initial line of sight (or effect) to each other, and the wizard were against an arrow demon class leveled up to ECL 20 instead of the monk, would he still be happy with the starting conditions?  Any battle field that allows the longer ranged guy or the one with the "bigger guns" to pincussion the other guy in the first round seems unbalanced to me.




Oh ok, I got what you're saying.  However, I think that by limiting the arena to such stringent rules, you're indirectly taking away from the effectiveness of a Wizard's class abilities - i.e., his ability to cast any spell he knows that comes from the PHB.  If you don't allow him to teleport (or cast any other spell) to the maximum range that is allowed by the spell, then you're hampering his class-given abilities, which I think is what we're trying NOT to do, because this is a fight between a monk and a wizard, not a monk and a slightly worse than core wizard.  That's like saying:

"Ok, let's pit a Monk and a Fighter against each other, but the arena is closed, meaning you can't leave it, and it's too small for the Monk to Abundant Step to his full range, because even if he started on one extreme border when he Stepped, he would Step out of the arena, and lose the fight by default." - That sounds like its making the Monk's class abilities a little worse, hampering the class.


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## Zimbel (Oct 25, 2005)

tylermalan said:
			
		

> So then, pretty much what you're saying is that the Wizard is way better than the Monk, so much so that to make the odds "even", you have to take away a ton of the Wizard's inherent, class-based advantages?  I'm not prodding, I'm actually asking if that's the point you're trying to get across.



Actually, I'm saying that a *high-level *Wizard is way better than an equivalent-leveled Monk (I do not, for example, believe this of a LV 1 Wiz vs. a LV 1 Monk). To make this fight even remotely close to fair, yes, we need to change the rules to favor the Monk. I was suggesting a set of rules which might do it. And, yes, as you suggest in your more recent argument, this is deliberately giving the Wizard unusual disadvantages and the Monk unusual advantages to try to get the odds closer to 50%.


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## Storm Raven (Oct 25, 2005)

Bryan898 said:
			
		

> So what?  I'm missing the point of lowering the point buy arguement.  If you lower the point buy then not only does the monk's stats lower but so do the wizard's.  The wizard will need a high Int and decent Con and Dex for hit points and AC/ touch attacks.  The Monk I post needs a high Wis, and decent Dex and Con.  They both require the same attributes and lowering the point buy affects both the same.




The monk, more than any other class, is highly dependent upon high ability scores. By skewing the range up above the norm, you automatically give the monk an advantange compared to the baseline given in the core rules.



> _Not very.  You cast time stop, assume you get 4 rounds, then summon four greater air elementals.  A 9th level spell, and four 8th level spells or 2-3 more 9th level spells.  Not a very great strategy for the cost._





It puts obstacles in your way that will inflict damage that you cannot save against. A couple rounds of being pounded on by elementals and your monk will be roughed up enough to deal with. A couple rounds of elemental attacks gives the wizard time to do other things.



> _Yeah, 11,000 gp out of 760,000 gp isn't a bad deal when forcecage is the most mentioned strategy so far.  You do have a vast repertoire of spells, many of which allow a save, which gives the monk a chance.  Forcecage was one of the strategies that doesn't, and making it moot for a measly 33,000 gp is definetely worth it._





33,000 gp that you can't spend on something of general utility, that is also completely useless to you unless the wizard does exactly as you expect him to.

Many of which don't. Heck, just a plain, vanilla _magic missile_ doesn't allow a save, and while you are busy trying to get around the elementals at the flying wizard, he'll pick away at your hit points with that. Or _true strike_ and _scorching ray_, or some other combination of spells.



> _Says who?  The people that have the authority to determine the rules says it is, and you're not anyone to say different.  The very text in the monster manual says the feats are typically used only by monsters, not exclusively.  The feats aren't limited to only monsters.  Otherwise, good luck crafting a construct such as golem or shield guardian as its in the MM._





Says the core rules. The feats availabale for players are detailed in the Player's Handbook. Anything else is a house rule.



> _Once again, it's in the book and nowhere does it state that PCs can't choose the feat.  As for statements from WotC, just because you don't like what they say doesn't mean that its not true.  Like it or not, they make the core rules and it's their right to change them or interpret them as they see fit.  But that's a different discussion._





They could if they wanted, but they didn't. If they had, they would have issued errata. The FAQ is not core, and it is not errata.



> _And all the monk has to do is go into an enclosed area (such as a dungeon), where flying is not a viable option and wait for the wizard to come and get him.  As the monk doesn't age, and there's no immortality spell for the wizard in the Core rules, eventually the wizard either pursues him or dies of old age._





The monk isn't immortal, he merely does not suffer the effects of aging. When he gets to his time, he still dies. As a wizard, I'd _teleport_ away, and pick a battle at a time and place of my choosing. If the monk is going to bottle himself up in a dungeon he's not going to be much of a problem for me when I'm going about my business in the rest of the world now is he?



> _No, it's your turn, you cast a quickened dimensional lock and forcecage.  It's the monk's turn, he escapes using one of his rod's of cancellation and a move action.  You're back to square one, your turn again, except you're out a 7th level spell, an 8th level spell, and one of three daily uses of a 170,000 gp item.  Meanwhile the monk's out of a measly 11,000 gp item.  This is definetely in the monk's advantage._



_

Now I know what you are going to do. I've dragged thing out and gotten information. The longer the battle goes, the better off I am._


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## Zimbel (Oct 25, 2005)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Yep, those are all able to win, some have a slightly lower chance, some a slightly higher chance, depending on circumstances, but it's really just the spellcaster vs. non-spellcaster issues at high levels, which are the 'problem'.
> 
> Spellcasting is simply too poweful at high levels for the non-spellcasters to stand a realistic chance.
> 
> ...



I'll second Thanee's view. This isn't just a problem of Wiz powerful vs Monk weak at high levels.

It's a problem of major spellcasters powerful vs non-major spellcasters weak at high levels.

Spellcasters get both too powerful of effects and too many effects in comparison to a non-major spellcaster at high levels.


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## Zimbel (Oct 25, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Says the core rules. The feats available for players are detailed in the Player's Handbook. Anything else is a house rule.



I don't think that I agree with you here; as I define the Core Rules are the PH, DMG, and MM, a feat in the MM is perfectly valid Core, unless it states that a PC/ member of the specified race can't take it.

On the other hand, I really don't think that the +2 save DC helps the Monk enough to matter in either direction. A high-level Wizard is likely to have Moment of Precience, which makes their first save modifier nearly irrelevant. Furthermore, the Monk has to actually close with the Wizard, which is highly unlikely with a minimally prepped Wizard.


			
				Storm Raven said:
			
		

> The monk isn't immortal, he merely does not suffer the effects of aging. When he gets to his time, he still dies. As a wizard, I'd _teleport_ away, and pick a battle at a time and place of my choosing. If the monk is going to bottle himself up in a dungeon he's not going to be much of a problem for me when I'm going about my business in the rest of the world now is he?



Also note that the Wizard can affect the shape/makeup of the dungeon (Passwall, Disintegrate, Stone Shape, appropriately called/gated creature) far easier and faster for a sustained duration than any Monk build I can come up with.


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## Anubis (Oct 26, 2005)

I don't think _forcecage_ is a commonly memorized spell for wizards.  The only way the wiard beats the monk is by taking spells that work specifically toward that goal.  I've never seen _forcecage_ used even once by PCs in a standard adventure.  Even if you consider that one fair, _quickened dimensional anchor_ and _dimensional lock_ are most certainly rarely used in common adventuring.

So if you take a standard monk with standard gear against a standard wizard with standard spells, the wizard will most likely lose.  Wizards are far more likely to take _horrid wilting_ than _quickened dimensional anchor_ or _ dimensional lock_; also, the former requires a touch attack (good luck with that against a monk) and the latter has to get through SR (also not guaranteed to succeed.

Frankly, I don't know any wizards who commonly take duel-type spells as part of their normal spells-per-day.  That is somethign that requires foreknowledge of the situation.  Any monk with a brain, however, will have a means to permanently be able to fly, as it's their one real weakness.


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## Doctor Shaft (Oct 26, 2005)

Part of me wants to agree with what Anubis is saying.  So far, the arguments have broken down to:

1.) Wizard's can kick all sorts of butt... if they know what they're fighting before hand.

2.) Monk's don't have much variety or even many options when going up against the wizard, but they can do some damage once they get past that "wall of spells." 

3.) Monks can get magic items to take care of glaring weaknesses (such as the inability to fly, etc). 

I'll agree with others though that in an arena type setting, the wizard wins a majority of the encounters. But as Anubis said, that's also assuming that the wizard sat down at the dinner table one night and said, "How can I crush this martial artist guy who swings with just his bare hands?" This is also assuming the wizard has a spellbook that has access to all those nifty monk killing spells that everyone is talking about, and that said wizard is going to make it a point of memorizing all of these spells.  This also assumes that in-game, the monk will actually willingly call out the wizard, declare what his "class" is, and give the wizard knowledge as to how to defeat him.  

"Dear Wizard:

I just wanted to inform you that I'm going to attack you head on with my hands and feet. Careful, I have spell resistance that you'll need to crush. I will charge you from 100 yards away, in an open field. Let us begin this fight tomorrow.  

Signed - Dumb Monk"

 

Sure, the wizard is more "powerful," as are all spellcasters at high levels compared to their melee counterparts, but melee characters have a few methods, albeit very limited, to dispatch of their spell-slinging friends, especially the monk.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Oct 26, 2005)

tylermalan said:
			
		

> Oh ok, I got what you're saying.  However, I think that by limiting the arena to such stringent rules, you're indirectly taking away from the effectiveness of a Wizard's class abilities - i.e., his ability to cast any spell he knows that comes from the PHB.  If you don't allow him to teleport (or cast any other spell) to the maximum range that is allowed by the spell, then you're hampering his class-given abilities, which I think is what we're trying NOT to do, because this is a fight between a monk and a wizard, not a monk and a slightly worse than core wizard.  That's like saying:
> 
> "Ok, let's pit a Monk and a Fighter against each other, but the arena is closed, meaning you can't leave it, and it's too small for the Monk to Abundant Step to his full range, because even if he started on one extreme border when he Stepped, he would Step out of the arena, and lose the fight by default." - That sounds like its making the Monk's class abilities a little worse, hampering the class.




Granted, being stuck in the arena hinders the wizard's options.  However, I think it far from compensates for the boon he gets in this style of contest.  As others have pointed out, the wizard has what is supposed to be 4-5 CR 20 battles worth of spells to blow on this single battle.  Not to mention foreknowledge of the encounter is unquestionably an advantage to the wizard.  I'll even prove it through logic if you don't agree.
1. The main advantage of foreknowledge is the ability to prepare
2. The more versatile your abilities (or options), the more you can prepare for a specific problem
3. With all his spells and the same spending cash for magic items, the wizard has more options than the monk to utilize
Therefore, the wizard has a greater benefit from the advance knowledge of the encounter.

So, for both those major advantages, being limited by the boundaries of the arena seems like a more than fair trade-off.  With spells like invisibility and non-detection still perfectly functional, this needn't be much of a problem.  Besides, a crafty mage could make the arena's constraints a nightmare for the monk.  A few high level summon monsters, and making various "zones" of the arena certain death with evard's black tentacles, cloudkill, etc.. you can herd the monk around like a sheep.


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## Demoquin (Oct 26, 2005)

Is it me or did everyone miss out on Quivering Palm? Fort save or Die outright.


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## Arkhandus (Oct 26, 2005)

As I already pointed out about two or three pages ago, the monk cannot get his Quivering Palm DC high enough to have a good chance of success with it.  The wizard, with good Constitution, a cloak of resistance, the Great Fortitude feat, and possibly an amulet of health, luckstone, bear's endurance spell, or the like, will be able to have a Fort bonus of +16 to +20 easily, and the monk's QP DC isn't going to be terribly high; 20 + wis mod (maybe +5 or +10, depending on how much the monk is going to sacrifice in str, dex, and con just to get better Will saves and monk DCs).  The wizard will likely only have a 5-25% chance of failing the saving throw, whereas the monk will have a higher chance of failing to save against the wizard's death spells (DC 33-36 typically if the wizard has focused on boosting his save DCs).

The monk has too many things to divide ability score points, stat boosts, and ability-boosting items amongst, and isn't likely to have any given one be exceptionally high unless he's seriously, seriously sacrificing other stuff.  The monk only needs one exploitable weakness and the wizard will be able to kill or disable him within the first few rounds.  If the monk pumps up Wis above all else, the wizard will likely kill him with a Finger of Death or Disintegrate (with Quickened True Strike) or petrify him with Flesh to Stone.  If the monk pumps Con and thus Fort, the wizard will likely kill him with a Phantasmal Killer or Wierd, or disable him with an Otto's Irresistable Dance or Dominate Person or the like.  Prismatic Spray could spell doom for the monk in numerous ways.  I rarely see high-level wizards who don't have at least one or two of these spells in their spellbook and either prepared or on a scroll, because relying on damage-dealing alone is a poor tactic against certain tricky or supertough enemies.  The wizard doesn't have to know the monk's weakness, though he can through observation with Scrying or questions through Contact Other Plane.  The wizard just needs to cast a few different spells until he finds the monk's weakness through trial and error.


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## nameless (Oct 26, 2005)

Wizard, 100% of the time.

Even a wizard who isn't expecting an arena-type fight would have spells prepared to deal with various obstacles. Any one of these will probably mean that a monk simply loses, with no save:

Shapechange (give the wizard unbeatable defenses, or attacks that devestate the monk)
Bigby's Grasping Hand (only level 7!), around +45 grapple check versus what is likely +25-+30 for a monk. Wizard can then kill the monk at his leisure.
Bigby's Crushing Hand, even higher grapple check than grasping hand, and deals damage to boot. This will probably kill a lone monk by itself while the wizard takes 0 damage.

If the wizard is willing to grant the monk a save, countless spells between 4th and 9th level kill instantly.

If the wizard can negate the monk's SR (or the monk doesn't have SR because he took a prestige class), a summon monster IX will get him a gaggle of avorals that do empowered magic missles every round. On average that is 3 avorals per spell, doing 63 damage per round with no save.

A conjuror will probably have a greater planar binding or ten at work, with some beaucoup powerful outsiders doing his bidding. A monk isn't much of a match for a pit fiend, planetar, or a balor on his own, either.

Considering the sheer number of spells a level 20 wizard prepares, it isn't even a significant drain of resources to beat a mere level 20 monk.


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## Storm Raven (Oct 26, 2005)

Anubis said:
			
		

> I don't think _forcecage_ is a commonly memorized spell for wizards.  The only way the wiard beats the monk is by taking spells that work specifically toward that goal.  I've never seen _forcecage_ used even once by PCs in a standard adventure.  Even if you consider that one fair, _quickened dimensional anchor_ and _dimensional lock_ are most certainly rarely used in common adventuring.




Then your wizards are probably not being used to their full potential. _Forcecage_ is a spell that can isolate an enemy (or protect yourself) that has no save. _Dimensional lock_ is a utilitarian spell at high level, since so many of your probable opponents have the ability to teleport, go ethereal, or otherwise move away from where you want them to be.



> _So if you take a standard monk with standard gear against a standard wizard with standard spells, the wizard will most likely lose.  Wizards are far more likely to take horrid wilting than quickened dimensional anchor or  dimensional lock; also, the former requires a touch attack (good luck with that against a monk) and the latter has to get through SR (also not guaranteed to succeed._





_True strike_ is a high level wizard's best friend. Combined with the Quicken metamagic feat, or a _lesser metamagic rod of quicken_ it makes those pesky touch attacks pretty much a sure thing against most foes.



> _Frankly, I don't know any wizards who commonly take duel-type spells as part of their normal spells-per-day.  That is somethign that requires foreknowledge of the situation.  Any monk with a brain, however, will have a means to permanently be able to fly, as it's their one real weakness._





Using the core rules, how does a monk get the ability to fly permanently?


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## tylermalan (Oct 26, 2005)

> I don't think forcecage is a commonly memorized spell for wizards. The only way the wiard beats the monk is by taking spells that work specifically toward that goal. I've never seen forcecage used even once by PCs in a standard adventure. Even if you consider that one fair, quickened dimensional anchor and dimensional lock are most certainly rarely used in common adventuring.
> 
> So if you take a standard monk with standard gear against a standard wizard with standard spells, the wizard will most likely lose. Wizards are far more likely to take horrid wilting than quickened dimensional anchor or dimensional lock; also, the former requires a touch attack (good luck with that against a monk) and the latter has to get through SR (also not guaranteed to succeed.
> 
> Frankly, I don't know any wizards who commonly take duel-type spells as part of their normal spells-per-day. That is somethign that requires foreknowledge of the situation. Any monk with a brain, however, will have a means to permanently be able to fly, as it's their one real weakness.






> Part of me wants to agree with what Anubis is saying. So far, the arguments have broken down to:
> 
> 1.) Wizard's can kick all sorts of butt... if they know what they're fighting before hand.
> 
> ...




Good lord, how many times does it have to be pointed out that the MONK AND WIZARD ARE BOTH TOTALLY PREPARED FOR THE PURPOSE OF THIS DEBATE!!  I'm pretty sure I've said that 3  or 4 times now, read the thread.  Yes, in a "standard" situation, there are certain things tht we cannot assume, but for the purpose of this argument, it is NOT a standard situation.


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## Artoomis (Oct 26, 2005)

tylermalan said:
			
		

> Good lord, how many times does it have to be pointed out that the MONK AND WIZARD ARE BOTH TOTALLY PREPARED FOR THE PURPOSE OF THIS DEBATE!!  I'm pretty sure I've said that 3  or 4 times now, read the thread.  Yes, in a "standard" situation, there are certain things tht we cannot assume, but for the purpose of this argument, it is NOT a standard situation.




And  how many times does it need to be pointed out that an arena-type setting is a really ridiculous way to figure out relative character power.

A monks' real power comes from the fact that he is virtually ALWAYS prepared for combat, even if stripped of all equipment.


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## Nail (Oct 26, 2005)

tylermalan said:
			
		

> Good lord, how many times does it have to be pointed out that the MONK AND WIZARD ARE BOTH TOTALLY PREPARED FOR THE PURPOSE OF THIS DEBATE!!



I can understand your frustration, OP.   

...but keep in mind, the thread is now 5 pages long.  A significant faction of the people that "read" the thread really just skim the first parts - or skip them entirely - before posting their own ill-thought through opinion.   What, did I just _write_ "ill-thought through".  I meant to just imply it.


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## Nail (Oct 26, 2005)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> ...A monks' real power comes from the fact that he is virtually ALWAYS prepared for combat, even if stripped of all equipment.



...or at least, it _seems_ as if a Monk is always prepared, regardless of equipment.  

As this thread has showed time and again, the only way a Mnk 20 can take a Wiz 20 is if he is prepared with the right equipment.  A wizard, OTOH, doesn't need much in the way of equipment to beat the Monk.  That's the point, Artoomis.


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## tylermalan (Oct 26, 2005)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> And  how many times does it need to be pointed out that an arena-type setting is a really ridiculous way to figure out relative character power.
> 
> A monks' real power comes from the fact that he is virtually ALWAYS prepared for combat, even if stripped of all equipment.




1)  Seconding Nail's above post.

2)  Yes, it is ridiculous, but those were the conditions laid out for the purpose of this debate.  We can have a new debate about all that other stuff, about how an arena-type combat is a ridiculous way to determine character power (which I am NOT arguing against), but for the purpose of this debate, that's how it is.

3)  And yeah, I know Nail, its just gaaaaaaah!  Thanks for the same opinion that we've already refuted 1000 times, you know?


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## Storm Raven (Oct 26, 2005)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> A monks' real power comes from the fact that he is virtually ALWAYS prepared for combat, even if stripped of all equipment.




Sort of. A high level monk stripped of all his equipment will usually lose a significant portion of what makes his ability scores really high (probably dropping his Wisdom, Dexterity, Strength, and possibly Constitution by 6 points or more each). This, off the bat, drops his AC, attacks, damage, saves, the save DC of his monk abilities all by a not insignificant amount. He retains his ability to flurry, stun, and so on, but everything is less effective. Without items the monk's AC enhancers go away. His saves come down to earth. He loses the ability to fly. He loses the ability to counter magical barriers and attacks.

Without his equipment, a high level wizard still has access to high level spells. His save Dcs might go down, and he loses a lot of his AC and so on, but he can compensate for that to some extent with his spell casting ability.


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## Artoomis (Oct 26, 2005)

Actually, what's truly been shown is:

1.  The wizard has greater raw power (well, duh!)
2.  Given the right equipment choices, the monk could win, but it definately depends upon equipment vs. wizard choices.
3.  The terms of the dual really can, to a large extent, determine the victor.  The ideal conditions for the monk and for the wizard are far from the same.
4.  With absolutely no equipment or preperation at all, the monk wins (well, duh, the wizard needs his spell book and spell component pounch, or at least have been able to prepare spells that are V & S only.)   Yes, the wizard COULD counter this with feats, but then he has NOT taken other feats, has he?
5.  Who wins is GREATLY intiative-dependent.  In many cases the wizard could be completely neutralized in the first round if the monk goes first and takes the right actions.
6.  Feat choices have also figure largely in the debate, but only so many can be taken and, really, have these two characters ONLY been preparing for THIS FIGHT all their lives?

Bottom line:  Monks are wizard-killers, but not so much if the wizard is well-prepared to face the monk one-on-one.

The whole discussion is a bit silly, really.


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## Nail (Oct 26, 2005)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> Actually, what's truly been shown is:
> 1.  The wizard has greater raw power (well, duh!)



Which was a point of contention with some.


			
				Artoomis said:
			
		

> 2.  Given the right equipment choices, the monk could win, but it definately depends upon equipment vs. wizard choices.



In fact, it's almost entirely dependent.  Which tell us something, nicht wahr?


			
				Artoomis said:
			
		

> 3.  The terms of the dual really can, to a large extent, determine the victor.  The ideal conditions for the monk and for the wizard are far from the same.



Yea, it does help the Monk if the Wizard's foot is nailed to the floor, and his left arm cut off.      We agree there.


			
				Artoomis said:
			
		

> 4.  With absolutely no equipment or preperation at all, the monk wins (well, duh, the wizard needs his spell book and spell component pounch, or at least have been able to prepare spells that are V & S only.)   Yes, the wizard COULD counter this with feats, but then he has NOT taken other feats, has he?



Wait.   When was it claimed a wizard without a spell component pouch could win?  This is a laregly spurious conclusion to draw.


			
				Artoomis said:
			
		

> 5.  Who wins is GREATLY intiative-dependent.  In many cases the wizard could be completely neutralized in the first round if the monk goes first and takes the right actions.



As in all high level combat, this is true.  But given the wizard's spells, it's not as important as with other match-ups.


			
				Artoomis said:
			
		

> 6.  Feat choices have also figure largely in the debate, but only so many can be taken and, really, have these two characters ONLY been preparing for THIS FIGHT all their lives?



That is the question asked by this thread, Artoomis.



			
				Artoomis said:
			
		

> Bottom line:  Monks are wizard-killers, but not so much if the wizard is well-prepared to face the monk one-on-one *so long as they have exactly the right equipment and a party of friends to help.*



Fixed that for you.


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## 10th man down (Oct 26, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Says the core rules. The feats availabale for players are detailed in the Player's Handbook. Anything else is a house rule.




Could you please refer me to the pages where this is explained? 
In case you refer me to the pages 59 and 87 you should read them again. Those pages, especially 87, detail only the process of acquiring feats and that you must meet the prerequisites of feats you want to take.
Nowhere is it said that a player is restricted to the feats listed in the PHB, only that he has to follow the rules of acquiring feats. 

10th


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## Storm Raven (Oct 26, 2005)

10th man down said:
			
		

> Could you please refer me to the pages where this is explained?
> In case you refer me to the pages 59 and 87 you should read them again. Those pages, especially 87, detail only the process of acquiring feats and that you must meet the prerequisites of feats you want to take.
> Nowhere is it said that a player is restricted to the feats listed in the PHB, only that he has to follow the rules of acquiring feats.




Perhaps the titles of the respective texts would illuminate you.

But, really, this debate is neither here nor there. Even with Ability Focus, a monk is still generally outclassed by an equally levelled, appropriately equipped wizard.


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## Tzarevitch (Oct 26, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Which is interesting, but not part of the core rules.




So by your definition anything that corrects or explains the alleged "core rules" is not "core"? That doesn't make sense. 

Tzarevitch


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## Storm Raven (Oct 26, 2005)

Tzarevitch said:
			
		

> So by your definition anything that corrects or explains the alleged "core rules" is not "core"? That doesn't make sense.




The FAQ, by definition, is not core. In many cases, the FAQ purports to contradict the core rules, even though the order of precedence WotC ascribes to it states that it cannot. I don't say the FAQ isn't core, WotC does.


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## Tzarevitch (Oct 26, 2005)

What it boils down to is that unless the monk gets an early stunning fist or quivering palm in he will probably loose. There are simply too many ways that a spellcaster can prevent a monk from closing the range and the monk simply can't defend against all of them:

Teleport related spells
Walls (Force, Stone, Ice, Prismatic)
Prismatic Sphere
Solid Fog/Acid Fog
Summon Monster Spells
Terrain altering spells
Illusions
Forcecage
Bigby's Hand spells

The wizard also has multiple ways to auto-disable, incapacitateor otherwise hinder for which the only defense is SR.
Power Words
Otto's Irresistable Dance
Ray of Enfeeblement
Waves of Fatigue/Exhaustion

The monk's defense comes a couple of flavors:
Speed: (close the range, unfortunately the monk can't innately fly and if he has a fly item he flies no faster than the wizard does. The item is also VERY vulnerable to Dispel.)
High AC: (Again the monk needs items. Base AC is quite good for someone who is unarmored but it is not THAT good without Bracers). 
All Good Saves: (This is fine, except for the spells that cause partial damage and spells with no save at all)
Evasion: (This is related to the good saves issue).

The Monk's offense comes in a single flavor:
Fists (Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm mainly). Damage is pretty good but you onnly have middle BAB and unfortunately you have to get close enough to hit him so you are really only getting a single swing and hoping for a special effect. Grapple is the monk's only other real option but a wizard or any other high level adventurer who doesn't oen a Ring of Freedom of Movement deserves what he gets.

Tzarevitch


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## Storm Raven (Oct 26, 2005)

One thing that is interesting to me is that many of the monk's suggested tactics involve him purchasing (often expensive) magical items that effectively duplicate some handful of the spells on the wizard's spell list: _winged boots_, _rings of spell storing_, _rods of cancellation_, and so on, and so forth. Effectively, the implicit message in this strategy suggestion is that the monk has to emulate being a wizard in order to defeat the wizard.


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## Zimbel (Oct 26, 2005)

Artoomis said:
			
		

> 3.  The terms of the dual really can, to a large extent, determine the victor.  The ideal conditions for the monk and for the wizard are far from the same.



Good. Can you propose conditions under which the Monk would have an advantage? I came up with a list a few pages back, if you want a starting point. I think that of my suggestions, the "Wandering anti-magic fields" was probably the most useful one (other than containing both PCs). Most of the others could work to a Summoner's benefit, over the long term. The other one that could be nice is the useful cover suggestion (i.e. made of force, or something else difficult to destroy).


			
				Artoomis said:
			
		

> 5.  Who wins is GREATLY intiative-dependent.  In many cases the wizard could be completely neutralized in the first round if the monk goes first and takes the right actions.



Erm.. not if the Wizard is prepped (which is the assumption). Contingency makes initiative largely irrelevant for being hit, and in the event that the Monk figures out a way around Contingency, MoP reduces the chance of Stunning Fist/Quivering Palm from taking down the Wizard to 5%. A single Luckblade can reduce this to 0.25%.


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## solates (Oct 26, 2005)

The issue here is gear.
lvl 20 characters should have about 760,000 gp in gear.

A wizard is going to blow most of his on scrolls, staves, rods, armor increasing items(bracers of armor +9, gloves of dex +6, amulet of natural armor +6, ring of protection +5).
and any intelligence increasing items(headband of intellect +6).

A monk however is going for saves(cloak of resistance +5) and the same above except he probably will get a belt of giant strength as well and instead of amulet of natural armor a phylactery of wisdom +6.  And all the above as well. 

Difference is basicly that a monk has no bad saves, has leap of the clouds(and with 23 ranks + say 3 for str mod is 26 + d20 roll for jumping) massive speed(made better with a simple set of boots of striding and jumping).  He also has abundant step(dimension door) 1/day.

And he has the diamond soul ability(which at lvl 20 would be sr 30 meaning the wizard would have to roll 10 or higher everytime he cast a spell to have it affect the monk, or 6 or higher if he had burned 2 feats to get greater spell penetration).

Getting to the wizard is not an actual issue-a monk can close distance without issue, OR he could just sneak up on the wizard.  There is no spell that reveals a hidden character.  This gives him a surprise round.  And most likely the wizard will start his round flat on his back.  Which means among other things he will spend the rest of the fight trying to get up.

And saying he does have contigency for 50% hp(normal contingency) all that does is get him away from the fight, he goes away, buffs, comes back flying etc.. The monk can simply just hide and wait for a new opportunity to gank the wizard.

Simply put any character with a high hide skill can kill anyone without spot as a class skill. 

This starts at 1st lvl when a ranger, rogue, monk starts using hit and run tactics to win against overwhelming opposition.  The way it works is legit, but extremely one sided, unless you have someone who can spot the enemy the enemy will eventually win.

Also only a small handful of wizard spells do not allow a save, and most are touch, or ranged touch attacks, both of which are pretty much NOT going to hit a monk because his ac and touch ac are pretty much the same(minus bracers of armor and amulet of natural armor if he does have them, most give up the natural armor for the wisdom boost).

If the environment allows for stealth the monk will win.  IF it does not the monk will still most likely win IF he has boots of flying in his backpack and takes the round to change footwear.  OR he has a potion of flying(best bet).

A high lvl character is dangerous but only against certain enemies, a monk is really designed to take out soft targets and make hard targets work for the kill.  A wizard is in general designed to handle utility spells among the party and take out enemy hard targets but starts to lose steam when he comes accross anything with evasion, improved evasion and good saves.

The two classes that really work well against a wizard are rogues, and monks.  A rogue can hit and run a wizard to death in no time, and a monk can just literally take a wizard out without much issue in one round or 2. 

Solates


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## Storm Raven (Oct 26, 2005)

solates said:
			
		

> The issue here is gear.
> lvl 20 characters should have about 760,000 gp in gear.
> 
> A wizard is going to blow most of his on scrolls, staves, rods, armor increasing items(bracers of armor +9, gloves of dex +6, amulet of natural armor +6, ring of protection +5).
> and any intelligence increasing items(headband of intellect +6).




All of which will probably soak up a fractional portion of the total cash. Leaving him money to go for saves, and so on.



> _A monk however is going for saves(cloak of resistance +5) and the same above except he probably will get a belt of giant strength as well and instead of amulet of natural armor a phylactery of wisdom +6.  And all the above as well._





Yes, he will. But since he has four stats that really _need_ enhancing (Wisdom, Dexterity, Strength, and Constitution), he's got to invest a lot in building those up, more than the wizard, who really only needs to boost his Intelligence.



> _Difference is basicly that a monk has no bad saves, has leap of the clouds(and with 23 ranks + say 3 for str mod is 26 + d20 roll for jumping) massive speed(made better with a simple set of boots of striding and jumping).  He also has abundant step(dimension door) 1/day._





The wizard casts _fly_. Your land bound speed is of no value.



> _And he has the diamond soul ability(which at lvl 20 would be sr 30 meaning the wizard would have to roll 10 or higher everytime he cast a spell to have it affect the monk, or 6 or higher if he had burned 2 feats to get greater spell penetration)._





So only half my spells work. Half my spells that allow SR that is. That leaves me plenty of spells to damage you with.



> _Getting to the wizard is not an actual issue-a monk can close distance without issue, OR he could just sneak up on the wizard.  There is no spell that reveals a hidden character.  This gives him a surprise round.  And most likely the wizard will start his round flat on his back.  Which means among other things he will spend the rest of the fight trying to get up._





Cast _fly_ while prone (casting defensively should be automatic for any reasonably desinged 20th level wizard). Fly out of the monk's reach.



> _And saying he does have contigency for 50% hp(normal contingency) all that does is get him away from the fight, he goes away, buffs, comes back flying etc.. The monk can simply just hide and wait for a new opportunity to gank the wizard._





_Scry_. Sure it has a save, but a reaosnably desinged wizard will have a save DC high enough that this will work a fair amount, and if it doesn't, he just leaves and looks for the monk some other day.



> _Also only a small handful of wizard spells do not allow a save, and most are touch, or ranged touch attacks, both of which are pretty much NOT going to hit a monk because his ac and touch ac are pretty much the same(minus bracers of armor and amulet of natural armor if he does have them, most give up the natural armor for the wisdom boost)._





We went through this already. _True strike_ is a wizard's friend. Alternatively, a barrage of _magic missiles_ cast while flying should ruin the monk's day.



> _If the environment allows for stealth the monk will win.  IF it does not the monk will still most likely win IF he has boots of flying in his backpack and takes the round to change footwear.  OR he has a potion of flying(best bet)._





The _winged boots_ allow you to fly for 15 minutes. The _potion of flying_ allows you to fly for five minutes. The 20th level wizard can fly for 20 minutes. Unless you have both on hand, the wizard can outlast you in the air, and all he has to do is avoid you for that time period. If you have both, he can cast the spell again (possibly from, for example, a scroll).


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## Zimbel (Oct 26, 2005)

solates said:
			
		

> A monk however is going for saves(cloak of resistance +5)



All high-level PCs should be looking for a way to consistantly get a +5 resistance bonus to saves, minimum. Cloak of Resistance is way to cheap to pass up, regardless of class (unless you have a way to get high resistance in some other way). On the other hand, it's unlikely that the Wizard's saves will matter (see earlier comments for why).


			
				solates said:
			
		

> Getting to the wizard is not an actual issue-a monk can close distance without issue, OR he could just sneak up on the wizard.  There is no spell that reveals a hidden character.  This gives him a surprise round.  And most likely the wizard will start his round flat on his back.  Which means among other things he will spend the rest of the fight trying to get up.



Speaking for my caster (who I retired at the end of LV 20), she'd just summon creatures with blindsight. She spoke the language of everything she summoned, so communication was a non-issue. Problem solved. 

I'm also not certain why you think Trip has any relevance to the matter - perhaps you're used to low level Wizards, for which Trip may be an issue?


			
				solates said:
			
		

> And saying he does have contigency for 50% hp(normal contingency) all that does is get him away from the fight, he goes away, buffs, comes back flying etc.. The monk can simply just hide and wait for a new opportunity to gank the wizard.
> 
> Simply put any character with a high hide skill can kill anyone without spot as a class skill.



If you read the prior posts, you'll find that you haven't scratched the contingency issue.


			
				solates said:
			
		

> This starts at 1st lvl when a ranger, rogue, monk starts using hit and run tactics to win against overwhelming opposition.  The way it works is legit, but extremely one sided, unless you have someone who can spot the enemy the enemy will eventually win.



Erm... I'll grant that this can work against a stupid opponent, or one that's particuarly weak. Frankly, using a fast mount and Ride-by Attack is better against slow opponents than these options. On the other hand, given the initial terms, this is largely irrelevant.

I'm also not certain why you think the Monk is likely able to even see the Wizard, particuarly since you're granting the inverse (that the Wizard can't see the Monk).


			
				solates said:
			
		

> Also only a small handful of wizard spells do not allow a save, and most are touch, or ranged touch attacks, both of which are pretty much NOT going to hit a monk because his ac and touch ac are pretty much the same(minus bracers of armor and amulet of natural armor if he does have them, most give up the natural armor for the wisdom boost).



There are dozens of comments on how to breach AC above, if the Wiz wants to. There's no real reason why the Wiz has to, though. At LV 20, there are plenty of options for the Wizard. The Monk has to shut the Wizard down on attack  action 1 (very unlikely), and keep them shut down until dead (marginally more likely).


			
				solates said:
			
		

> ...the monk will still most likely win IF he has boots of flying in his backpack and takes the round to change footwear.  OR he has a potion of flying(best bet).



Neither item grants enough mobility to matter. If the Monk has a round to change footwear, the Wizard is very stupid. On the other hand, given the terms of combat, the Monk should start off with the boots on.


			
				solates said:
			
		

> A high lvl character is dangerous but only against certain enemies, a monk is really designed to take out soft targets and make hard targets work for the kill.  A wizard is in general designed to handle utility spells among the party and take out enemy hard targets but starts to lose steam when he comes accross anything with evasion, improved evasion and good saves.
> 
> The two classes that really work well against a wizard are rogues, and monks.  A rogue can hit and run a wizard to death in no time, and a monk can just literally take a wizard out without much issue in one round or 2.



I'm wondering why you think a LV 20 Wizard is a soft target. A LV 1 Wizard is a soft target; a LV 20 Wizard can compensate for virtually every disadvantage fairly cheaply (e.g. spells that they'll replenish tomorrow). As for saves, SR, and evasion, please look at the prior posts.

The rogue's chances in the described combat are largely the same as the Monk although their base Move is lower. Fundamentally both need to get the first attack. Both need to hit with that attack, and using that attack either kill the Wizard or shut them down, so they can't do anything until death. A moderately well-played Wizard is very unlikely to give them the opportunity to take that attack. A well-played Wizard is unlikely to be shut down even if they get that attack.


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## Zimbel (Oct 26, 2005)

<removed; duplicative of above post>


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## green slime (Oct 26, 2005)

Mooooo! Moo-moo-moo!

*gallops over to other side of field*

Mooo! Moo! Moo! Moo!

*comes thundering back over to this side*

*Moo!*

*trots back over to the other side*

Moo? Moo-moo-moo mooooooo moo!

*starts to walk back across the field, gets abducted by aliens*


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## Lamoni (Oct 27, 2005)

Edit - Deleted post because I didn't want to inspire any more posts.  The topic has been adequately discussed.


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## Lord Pendragon (Oct 27, 2005)

Lamoni said:
			
		

> Edit - Deleted post because I didn't want to inspire any more posts.  The topic has been adequately discussed.



Meh.  Nobody ever got down to it.  I wish I still had a link to the fantastic Fighter vs Psiwar thread from a few months back.  Elder-Basilisk and another poster (I want to say Scion, but I may be misremembering,) each posted a build and its advantages/disadvantages.  It was a very informative thread, allowing each person to look at a fully-statted 20th-level character, the rationale behind the creators, and judge for themselves whom they believe was stronger.

In the Fighter/Psiwar thread it was more about "being the best fighter" than winning an arena match, but the point remains.  With any of these comparison discussions, at the end of the day you need to stat up examples and analyze them.


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