# HBO's ROME



## Mark CMG (Aug 29, 2005)

http://www.hbo.com/rome/


Premiere's tonight.  A Pre-Show begins in about ten minutes.  Looks to be another potential favorite in the same vein as Daedwood, the Sopranos, Entourage, etc.


*"The Stolen Eagle" Episode #01.*
_Two soldiers must find the army's golden standard; the Senate worries about Caesar's popularity; Atia is careful to play both sides of an escalating power struggle. Adult Situations; Graphic Language; Nudity; Violence._


*"How Titus Pullo Brought Down the Republic" Episode #02.*
_Mark Antony returns to Rome; Vorenus heads home to his family; Pompey drafts an ultimatum stripping the general of his power. Adult Situations; Language; Nudity; Graphic Violence._


*"An Owl in a Thornbush" Episode #03.*
_Pompey makes an unusual tactical decision; Atia enlists her mercenary to ensure her family's security; Pullo's unit intercepts a cargo wagon. Adult Situations; Language; Nudity; Graphic Violence._


*"Stealing From Saturn" Episode #04.*
_Caesar seeks to consolidate his hold on Rome; Atia throws a party; Pullo delivers Quintus Pompey to Caesar. Adult Situations; Language; Nudity; Graphic Violence._


*"The Ram Has Touched the Wall" Episode #05.*
_Caesar weighs Pompey's counteroffer; Vorenus must reconsider his career choices; Atia concocts a scheme to come between Caesar and Servilia. Adult Situations; Language; Nudity; Graphic Violence._


*"Egeria" Episode #06.*
_Mark Antony runs Rome while Caesar pursues Pompey; Pullo takes Octavian to a brothel; Atia tries to mend fences with Servilia. Adult Situations; Language; Nudity; Graphic Violence._


*"Pharsalus" Episode #07.*
_Vorenus and Pullo are marooned in the Adriatic Sea; Pompey decides to attack Caesar's depleted forces; Atia enlists Octavia to ask a favor of Servilia. Adult Situations; Language; Nudity; Graphic Violence._


*"Caesarion" Episode #08.*
_Caesar arrives in Alexandria and meets the king; Vorenus and Pullo free Ptolemy's incarcerated sister; Caesar seeks payment from Egypt for past debts. Adult Situations; Language; Nudity; Graphic Violence._


*"Utica" Episode #09.*
_Caesar returns home; Vorenus and Pullo have a showdown with a local thug; Servilia's plan backfires. Adult Situations; Language; Nudity; Graphic Violence._


*"Triumph" Episode #10.*
_Caesar is anointed emperor; Vorenus and Pullo plan their futures. Adult Situations; Language; Nudity; Violence._


*"The Spoils" Episode #11.*
_Pullo descends into Rome's netherworld; Vorenus is rewarded for his allegiance. Adult Situations; Language; Nudity; Violence._


*"Kalends of February" Episode #12.*
_Pullo and Vorenus are rewarded; Caesar decides to overhaul the Senate; Servilia hurdles the final obstacle in her revenge scenario. Adult Situations; Language; Nudity; Violence._


See ya next season!


----------



## Mystery Man (Aug 29, 2005)

five minutes to Rome. Killing time...


----------



## IronWolf (Aug 29, 2005)

Posting while the opening credits are starting.... We'll see how this premier looks!


----------



## ssampier (Aug 29, 2005)

Darn you with premium cable. Curse you, I say.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Aug 29, 2005)

I'm talking about it with my dad right now. He's watching it in New York- loves it, as opposed to the recent ABC attempt.

He loves the costumes and the actors. Says its very historically accurate in almost all respects. He's not entirely sure about the chronology of Octavian's military career, but that's mostly because he never really liked Octavian and didn't pay much attention. Otherwise, though, it meshes with much of what he knows of the period (he's a historian and the Julius Caesar era is one of his favorite epochs.)


----------



## Mystery Man (Aug 29, 2005)

I liked the show a lot, but it lost my wife during the sacrificial bull scene. Don't think she'll be back, but that just means I have the TV room to myself for an hour.  I still like Deadwood better.


----------



## Cthulhu's Librarian (Aug 29, 2005)

I want to watch this, but no HBO in my house... but it's a definite once it hits DVD.


----------



## DreadPirateMurphy (Aug 29, 2005)

Seems like just another melodramatic soap opera, honestly.  We watched it last night, and we almost tuned out when the first 15 minutes seemed really slow.  There was some clever writing, but the characters aren't sympathetic at all, and the nudity seemed gratuitous and unnecessary (and also added obvious anachronisms, unless the Romans were big on bikini waxing and implants).

The biggest problem I had was that the twists seemed pretty predictable, and the whole stoy is like the Star Wars prequels in that you know what is going to happen.  There isn't really any tension over whether Pompeii is going to win out over Julius Caesar in the end, for example.


----------



## Old One (Aug 29, 2005)

Mystery Man said:
			
		

> I liked the show a lot, but it lost my wife during the sacrificial bull scene. Don't think she'll be back, but that just means I have the TV room to myself for an hour.  I still like Deadwood better.




Hehe...that kinda turned my wife off as well.  It was actually kinda of interesting watching it with her...she didn't really get into it (she doesn't like _Deadwood_ either...but I was able to answer virtually all of her questions.  She knew who Julius Caesar was, but Pompey, Alesia, Vercingetorix, Cata, Cicero, Brutus, Marc Antony, Octavian and others were unknown to her...

Her comments were "Lots of naked people..." and "Nice picture..." when the imprisoned legionnaire drew the picture of the male genitalia.

Overall, I thought it was a pretty decent effort...I didn't watch the ABC program because it looked like a big pile of steaming you-know-what...but I thought the costumes, scenery and "flavor" were all very good.  The intrigue and scheming were fun - but I found the player of Julius a bit wooden.

Liked the (limited) combat scene - which seemed to be a repulse of either Vercingetorix's break out attempt from Alesia or the attempted break-in by the Gallic relieving force - hard to tell without any other context.

I also liked it when the two legionnaires took on the bandits...reminded me of a couple of high(er)-level D&D PC mowing through a bunch of low-levels.

I will give it 3.5 out of 5 stars !

~ OO


----------



## Wyn A'rienh (Aug 29, 2005)

Loved it.


----------



## MaxKaladin (Aug 29, 2005)

I loved it.  MUCH better than Empire (ABC's recent Roman show).

I've read that a reviewer who has seen more of it said that the first episode seems slow because they're introducing the characters and establishing them a bit, but the next two are quicker paced and you'll be hooked by the end of episode 3.  Folks might want to give it until then to decide for sure.


----------



## MaxKaladin (Aug 30, 2005)

Something else I noticed:  John Milius of Conan fame is a writer and producer for the series.


----------



## LogicsFate (Aug 30, 2005)

The first ten minutes seemed really slow... then I fell asleep

I recorded it so I'll watch it later


----------



## Tarrasque Wrangler (Aug 30, 2005)

That was way bitchin'.  The interplay between Vorenus and Pullo was well done, the bit with Marc Antony and the gold was straight outta "Sopranos", and every drama on TV needs that Octavian kid to show up and explain every twist and turn.  Just run a little bubble at the bottom of the screen with that kid giving you the roadmap.



			
				DreadPirateMurphy said:
			
		

> but the characters aren't sympathetic at all




You must have a lot of trouble with Deadwood.  It's a different era.  There's some real fiends on this show, but the good guys (I'm gonna say Pullo and Vorenus at this point) are just acting in keeping with the dominant paradigm of the age.



> and the nudity seemed gratuitous and unnecessary (and also added obvious anachronisms, unless the Romans were big on bikini waxing and implants).




Yeah well...real Romans had huge schnozzes too and spoke Latin rather than the Queen's English.  It's not reality, it's HBO


----------



## LightPhoenix (Aug 30, 2005)

Honestly, I found it rather boring.  Perhaps it will get a little more interesting in the next couple of episodes, and I'll keep watching in the hopes it will.  It's certainly no Deadwood though.


----------



## DreadPirateMurphy (Aug 30, 2005)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> You must have a lot of trouble with Deadwood.  It's a different era.  There's some real fiends on this show, but the good guys (I'm gonna say Pullo and Vorenus at this point) are just acting in keeping with the dominant paradigm of the age.




I've never seen Deadwood.  I did actually like Pullo and Vorenus, though, now that you mention it.



			
				Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> Yeah well...real Romans had huge schnozzes too and spoke Latin rather than the Queen's English.  It's not reality, it's HBO




After unfortunately catching some of the silly premier party with folks gushing about the show's realism, it struck me as funny to see bouncing gobs of silicone 10 minutes in.  HBO is unique in its ability to make quality television that also appeals to the lowest common denominator.  

My better half is going to watch the 2nd show, so maybe I'll tune in.  I may have just had an alergic reaction to the hype.


----------



## Mark CMG (Aug 30, 2005)

DreadPirateMurphy said:
			
		

> I did actually like Pullo and Vorenus, though, now that you mention it.




Boiled down, originally, this series was meant to be a 12 part pseudo buddy cop series centered around those two characters and set in Roman times.  I believe, from what I read in passing last spring, they stuck with that idea.  Highborn and lowborn, thown together in troubled times, begrudging respect for one another, in a world about to be turned upside-down, etc.




			
				DreadPirateMurphy said:
			
		

> After unfortunately catching some of the silly premier party with folks gushing about the show's realism, it struck me as funny to see bouncing gobs of silicone 10 minutes in.





I tend to let things like that and vacination scars go but I draw the line at wristwatches.


----------



## The Grumpy Celt (Aug 30, 2005)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> Yeah well...real Romans had huge schnozzes too and spoke Latin rather than the Queen's English.  It's not reality, it's HBO




That's horribly bigoted of you.... everyone knows everyone in the entire omniverse speaks Queen's English with a Brittish or American accent, unless they are evil and then they have a German accent. Don't you watch Dr. Who?

And it's a well known fact the Roman's had implants. They just used - like their plumbing - lead. Which is where the term crazy boobies comes from.

Really, how bloody is this show? This was a very blood-mad part of history, so there should be ample blood-baths for it to be accurate.


----------



## Old One (Aug 30, 2005)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> Really, how bloody is this show? This was a very blood-mad part of history, so there should be ample blood-baths for it to be accurate.




Fairly bloody...one of the female leads (the scheming Atia, mother of Octavian) has a bull sacrificed above her and is drenched in the animal's blood as part of an augury.  The combat scenes are in keeping with the _Gladiator_ mould.

~ OO


----------



## DreadPirateMurphy (Aug 30, 2005)

Old One said:
			
		

> Fairly bloody...one of the female leads (the scheming Atia, mother of Octavian) has a bull sacrificed above her and is drenched in the animal's blood as part of an augury.  The combat scenes are in keeping with the _Gladiator_ mould.




One point -- unlike some of the nudity, the violence all seemed to have a point in advancing the plot or background story.



			
				The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> That's horribly bigoted of you.... everyone knows everyone in the entire omniverse speaks Queen's English with a Brittish or American accent, unless they are evil and then they have a German accent. Don't you watch Dr. Who?




Funny, I have British friends who always gripe that all the villians in American films have English accents.


----------



## MaxKaladin (Aug 30, 2005)

Old One said:
			
		

> Fairly bloody...one of the female leads (the scheming Atia, mother of Octavian) has a bull sacrificed above her and is drenched in the animal's blood as part of an augury.



That was more of a blood shower than a blood bath though...


----------



## Fast Learner (Aug 30, 2005)

I can appreciate people's desire to not have nudity in a film.

Me, I enjoyed it, and found the nudity entertaining.


----------



## Mystery Man (Aug 31, 2005)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> I can appreciate people's desire to not have nudity in a film.





I can't. It says TV-MA. If you see that you should know there is going to be something in there that if you don't like it, you're going to have to see it. If you don't like it you don't have to watch it. If you watched knowing about the TV-MA disclaimer and saw something you didnt like you really have no business complaining.

 Now, I would have a problem if this was going to be aired on say, a channel like Nickelodeon or TVLand. But this is HBO, it's where _grown ups_ go to watch TV.


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Aug 31, 2005)

I don't have a *problem* with the nudity, exactly (watching it on On Demand right now)... but the sex scene in the beginning seemed totally unnecessary in every way.  But - I've always wondered why women are so much more likely to do scenes with full nudity.  *shrug*

I don't mind it when it serves to establish something important, but it's not something that I plan to see when I tune into a television show...


----------



## mmu1 (Aug 31, 2005)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> I don't have a *problem* with the nudity, exactly (watching it on On Demand right now)... but the sex scene in the beginning seemed totally unnecessary in every way.  But - I've always wondered why women are so much more likely to do scenes with full nudity.  *shrug*
> 
> I don't mind it when it serves to establish something important, but it's not something that I plan to see when I tune into a television show...




I don't think that women are more _likely_ to do it per se, I just think lots of male full frontal nudity is probably not a very profitable approach given the target demographic of many shows and movies... 

I also think another reasons for it are ratings and standards that used to / still do regulate just what you can show in movies and on TV and how it gets rated - with female "full frontal" nudity, you're arguably just showing pubic hair the great majority of the time. Uh... How the hell did the conversation get here?


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Aug 31, 2005)

mmu1 said:
			
		

> Uh... How the hell did the conversation get here?




*laughs*  I'm not quite sure...  but if there's one thing I love it's a good conversation about ... public hair.     *rolls eyes*


----------



## Mark CMG (Aug 31, 2005)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> I don't mind it when it serves to establish something important,





It's meant to grab your attention but it's also meant to establish a very base, emotional connection between the audience and events that happened two millennia ago.  Much in the same way that the violence of the battle sequence does at the beginning of _Gladiator_ but at a much lower cost (and with a different rating since society has deemed extreme violence more acceptable to display in entertainment than sex, for whatever reasons).  That base connection is meant to tear down the wall someone builds when they go to see a story that takes place in "history".  I believe the "graffiti is speaking to us across time" opening credits sequence is also meant to take us back rather than just leave us as mere observers.

On another level, it is meant to inform us about her character.  How she conducts herself through the sex act, and just afterward, is more important than any words she could speak.  It tells us much more than if the writers would have given her narrative lines to emote during, say, a trip to the market or a conversation with a confidante in her villa.

Further, it sets a tone that the 12 hour series is going to challenge our sensibilities and put us in the middle of very intimate situations.  It says to the audience, "If *this* is too much for you, get out now.  We've only just started."


----------



## Old One (Aug 31, 2005)

Mark CMG said:
			
		

> On another level, it is meant to inform us about her character.  How she conducts herself through the sex act, and just afterward, is more important than any words she could speak.  It tells us much more than if the writers would have given her narrative lines to emote during, say, a trip to the market or a conversation with a confidante in her villa.




Agreed.  It sets her up as a major user and manipulator...the act is nothing more than release for her...part of doing business.

It will be interesting to see how she...um...develops !

~ OO


----------



## Digital M@ (Aug 31, 2005)

DreadPirateMurphy said:
			
		

> and the nudity seemed gratuitous and unnecessary (and also added obvious anachronisms, unless the Romans were big on bikini waxing and implants).





Nope, that is not historically accurate.  i believe the first recorded popular use of plastic surgery was Jewish men having foreskin put back on their wankers.  They wanted to fit in better while excercising in the nude and during public bathing.


----------



## Fast Learner (Aug 31, 2005)

Mystery Man said:
			
		

> I can't. It says TV-MA. If you see that you should know there is going to be something in there that if you don't like it, you're going to have to see it. If you don't like it you don't have to watch it. If you watched knowing about the TV-MA disclaimer and saw something you didnt like you really have no business complaining.



So... you can't appreciate someone's desire to not have nudity in the film? I don't get it. I agree that _complaining_ that _this_ show has nudity doesn't make much sense, but you can't appreciate people not wanting a show to have nudity? How come?


----------



## Fast Learner (Aug 31, 2005)

Oh, and Mark, great post, great points.


----------



## Mystery Man (Aug 31, 2005)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> So... you can't appreciate someone's desire to not have nudity in the film? I don't get it. I agree that _complaining_ that _this_ show has nudity doesn't make much sense, but you can't appreciate people not wanting a show to have nudity? How come?





Knowing about it beforehand and complaining about it after is my point. TV-MA warning. Mature audiences. It means a high probability of nudity, sex, and/or somebody dieing in a gruesome fashion. Get over it or don't watch it.


----------



## BadMojo (Aug 31, 2005)

I enjoyed it, nudity, blood and all.  I think the show will be quite historically accurate, as HBO tends to be pretty good with that sort of thing (see Deadwood).

I did find the first episode to be a bit slow, which is to be expected.  All in all, I think I'm going to enjoy this show.  I'm already developing a soft spot for Pullo, unreliable drunken lout and combat maniac that he is.  

Now that I think about it, I would have been disappointed if there wasn't some ox blood and a crucifiction or two in the first episode!


----------



## Tarrasque Wrangler (Aug 31, 2005)

> After unfortunately catching some of the silly premier party with folks gushing about the show's realism, it struck me as funny to see bouncing gobs of silicone 10 minutes in.




I hate to tell you this (well, no I don't  ) but according to MrSkin.com, Polly Walker is as natural as the day she was born.

And curses to you, Dread Pirate Murphy, for making me go to that vile site to find that out!  Curses!


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Aug 31, 2005)

Mark CMG said:
			
		

> On another level, it is meant to inform us about her character.  How she conducts herself through the sex act, and just afterward, is more important than any words she could speak.  It tells us much more than if the writers would have given her narrative lines to emote during, say, a trip to the market or a conversation with a confidante in her villa.
> 
> Further, it sets a tone that the 12 hour series is going to challenge our sensibilities and put us in the middle of very intimate situations.  It says to the audience, "If *this* is too much for you, get out now.  We've only just started."




I agree totally, but don't see how any of that couldn't have been accomplished without having to see her totally naked.  It's not too much for me, just seems that there are ways to establish all of those important character points without having a screen full of T&A.  The scene itself is fine, but could have proved the same things if she - say - had on a cotton shift or simply didn't show all the bits and pieces.  There are ways to do sex without being so blatant, but I suppose it is HBO.

EDIT - I also found it interesting that many people's wives found the bull scene disturbing.  I found *that* scene to be very interesting, revealing, and - in many ways - quite beautiful.


----------



## Hand of Evil (Aug 31, 2005)

It will be interesting to see who they get for Cleo, so far, the guys have looked like images of the characters they are playing.


----------



## Mark CMG (Aug 31, 2005)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> I agree totally, but don't see how any of that couldn't have been accomplished without having to see her totally naked.  It's not too much for me, just seems that there are ways to establish all of those important character points without having a screen full of T&A.  The scene itself is fine, but could have proved the same things if she - say - had on a cotton shift or simply didn't show all the bits and pieces.  There are ways to do sex without being so blatant, but I suppose it is HBO.





It's a matter of impact.  It's meant to be blatant.  That's part of the intent.  The ACTUAL nudity IS an element in what they were trying to do in all three cases described above.  Faux nudity would be a substitute ingredient.  To remove or downplay the nudity weakens the impact and changes the artistic intent.  Could they have changed it and done it your way?  Sure, but then it wouldn't have been what it is, it would have been something else, something the artists hadn't intended.


----------



## DreadPirateMurphy (Aug 31, 2005)

Just a clarification - there is nothing wrong with nudity on TV.  If anything, Americans are too prudish about it.  The reason there isn't more male nudity is because it is censored more heavily.

My critique of the show is that there was nudity that had no purpose other than to appeal to the young male demographic.  It was basically blatant marketing, not art, and in my mind no better than a product placement.

If they can up the pacing, tone down the melodrama a teensy bit, and avoid crass displays of boobies and gore for demographic appeal, then the show could be really good television.

BTW:  I don't care what Mr. Skin says.  Real breasts MOVE when you bounce up and down.


----------



## Mystery Man (Aug 31, 2005)

DreadPirateMurphy said:
			
		

> Just a clarification - there is nothing wrong with nudity on TV.  If anything, Americans are too prudish about it.  The reason there isn't more male nudity is because it is censored more heavily.
> 
> My critique of the show is that there was nudity that had no purpose other than to appeal to the young male demographic.  It was basically blatant marketing, not art, and in my mind no better than a product placement.




I'll have to agree with Mark's analysis of the nude scene and conclude that perhaps you've missed the point.



			
				DreadPirateMurphy said:
			
		

> If they can up the pacing, tone down the melodrama a teensy bit, and avoid crass displays of boobies and gore for demographic appeal, then the show could be really good television.




There was no "crass display". This wasn't Porky's or some other bad 80's teen sex movie.


----------



## Storm Raven (Aug 31, 2005)

DreadPirateMurphy said:
			
		

> Just a clarification - there is nothing wrong with nudity on TV.  If anything, Americans are too prudish about it.  The reason there isn't more male nudity is because it is censored more heavily.




That may be true, but the reason probably has more to do with the belief (held by many entertainment industry bigwigs) that female nudity increases the draw (and therefore profit) of a movie or show, while male nudity is, at best, profit neutral.


----------



## Mark CMG (Aug 31, 2005)

DreadPirateMurphy said:
			
		

> Just a clarification -.




No need.  It's not that your point wasn't understood.  It's just that some of us disagree.


----------



## zen_hydra (Aug 31, 2005)

I loved the show. My wife and I are both historians (by education, if not trade) and it was nice to see that a real effort had been made to keep close to historical accuracy. I would like to address a couple of issues some of the previous posters had with the show (e.g. "gratuitous" nudity and violence). Nearly constant spectacles of full and partial nudity are an accurate portrayal of the time and place that the Rome series is supposed to take place in. Most of the world (past and present) doesn't share the same sensibilities and hang-ups as Americans do. The climate and lack of social stigma facilitated open public nudity in Ancient Rome. To not portray that aspect of Roman life (for the sake of American prudishness) would be, in my opinion, both ridiculous and a false impression of what ancient Roman life was like. The ancient world (and for that matter a lot of the non-western, modern world) is a hard, cruel, brutish place to live.  Life is extremely cheap.  People are exposed to human death on a daily basis. There is little place for modern (western) ideals in a place like that.  Anyway, that's my rant.  I love the show. I can't wait to see more of it. It is shaping up to be, in my opinion, the best thing on television.


----------



## Fast Learner (Aug 31, 2005)

For the record, they did have full frontal male nudity, in the form of the King of Gaul. It was just somewhat distant.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Aug 31, 2005)

I'd love to have seen it but it's on friggin' HBO!   

If it comes out on the regular cable, then, if I can remember about it, I may watch it...


----------



## DreadPirateMurphy (Aug 31, 2005)

Mystery Man said:
			
		

> I'll have to agree with Mark's analysis of the nude scene and conclude that perhaps you've missed the point.




I got the point, I just don't agree with it.    I agree with Queen that the same message could have been addressed in different ways without reducing the impact.  My opinion is that it was purely a crass ratings ploy.



			
				ZenHydra said:
			
		

> Nearly constant spectacles of full and partial nudity are an accurate portrayal of the time and place that the Rome series is supposed to take place in. Most of the world (past and present) doesn't share the same sensibilities and hang-ups as Americans do. The climate and lack of social stigma facilitated open public nudity in Ancient Rome. To not portray that aspect of Roman life (for the sake of American prudishness) would be, in my opinion, both ridiculous and a false impression of what ancient Roman life was like.




In a way, you make my point for me.  The camera work for Atia's nude scenes were driven for maximum exploitation of the titilation value.  The very nature of the portrayal does not convey an air of nonchalance.  Ask yourself if the focus of the bath scene was the conversation with Octavian or her nudity in the tub?  If the emphasis had been on the conversation and the nudity incidental, there would have been no need for the reveal as she rises from the tub, followed by her beckoning motion.

It is also interesting that the other nude scenes contradict the idea that there is no stigma to public nudity, at least in the sense of being stripped.  When the king of the Gauls bows to Caesar, or when Pompeii was "sampling" his bride-not-to-be, there was a very clear message of submission in the nudity.

Finally, even if the intent of the director was to show that Atia uses people, illustrating it with sex is a very modern affectation.  It supposes a modern sensibility that there is something wrong with casual sex based on notions of romantic love that didn't exist in Roman times.  I wonder if an ancient Roman would even get the supposed message.


----------



## Wayside (Aug 31, 2005)

DreadPirateMurphy said:
			
		

> It supposes a modern sensibility that there is something wrong with casual sex based on notions of romantic love that didn't exist in Roman times.



This observation is based on what? Rome's lyric poets more or less invented "romantic love."


----------



## Mark CMG (Aug 31, 2005)

DreadPirateMurphy said:
			
		

> (. . .) even if the intent of the director was to show that Atia uses people, illustrating it with sex is a very modern affectation.





Quite the opposite, and also the point you've been missing.


----------



## Simplicity (Aug 31, 2005)

Rome seemed pretty accurate to me... but it was pretty boring.  If you can take 5 years of Latin, know all the characters, and still be bored by the show, then it's got some problems.  

Atia, Octavius, and the "buddy cops" were the highlights of the show.  But they didn't bother to settle on main character(s), and no one got enough air time such that you'd give a damn about ANYONE.  They should have started with a two-hour premiere.  

As for the nudity...  That's early Roman life.  Romans used to laugh at the Christians for their prudishness.  Now Europe laughs at America for it's prudishness.  Did the show producers exploit that lack of a taboo?  Maybe.  That argument may hold for Atia's scene...  But Octavia's scene?  I don't think that was meant to titalate.  So the scorecard's pretty even on that issue, I think.  

I'll probably watch another show or two and see if it can grow...  But so far... Ho hum.


----------



## Mark CMG (Aug 31, 2005)

Well, the early episodes are going to suffer a bit because they will be bringing some of the audience up to speed.  Although, I find the writers using Octavius as a device a lot of fun.


----------



## DreadPirateMurphy (Aug 31, 2005)

Wayside said:
			
		

> This observation is based on what? Rome's lyric poets more or less invented "romantic love."




Forgive me, I should have said "notions _about_ romantic love."  The concept of romantic love (as opposed to carnal love) is of course a very old concept.  The Greeks had Eros and Agape.  The point I was making was that it is Western Christian culture that intertwines marriage, sex, and romantic love as the expected combination.  Prior to that, their coincidence would have been welcomed but not expected.

I don't think it is unfair to say that your typical, sexually conservative American would find Atia's behavior more shocking than a Roman (or even a modern day Italian, perhaps -- some cultures are more liberal than others) would.

This is starting to really drift off-topic.  The point is that you CAN see some of what was in the show as exploitative or crass.  Given some of HBO's other shows, it would certainly not be below their standards as a network.


----------



## Fast Learner (Sep 1, 2005)

Octavia's nudity was, in my eyes, about humiliation, including the humiliation her mother would put her through, and not about titillation at all.

At least for me: I was mildly titillated, and then suppressed a gag.


----------



## ddvmor (Sep 2, 2005)

When this turns up in the UK, it'll be interesting to see the focus on the violence and gore rather than the run of the mill nudity and sex.  We get loads of that!



			
				Digital M@ said:
			
		

> ... i believe the first recorded popular use of plastic surgery was Jewish men having foreskin put back on their wankers...




He he... you said 'wankers'.  You have no idea how rude that is over here!


----------



## Mark CMG (Sep 2, 2005)

Another part of the writing and direction I enjoyed was how extremely competent they made the Roman soldiers appear.  It was as disciplined as I have ever seen it portrayed and really showed how such warriors could make short work of much larger numbers of lesser-trained fighters.


----------



## Fast Learner (Sep 2, 2005)

Yes, absolutely! Loved the formation, and but for the idiot (who I also enjoyed) their solid use of it. It did indeed make it clear how the Romans did so well: smarter!


----------



## Mark CMG (Sep 2, 2005)

And, as someone mentioned above I believe, how our two heroes casually carved up the brigands guarding Octavian, the white stalion, and the golden eagle.  Mince meat!


----------



## LightPhoenix (Sep 4, 2005)

I do have to admit, despite my boredom with the show as a whole, I loved pretty much every scene with the two guys.  Lucius Vorenus and Titus Pullo are their names, btw.  They were by far and away the best part of the show.  Especially the scene with the brigands.


----------



## Mark CMG (Sep 4, 2005)

Episode two, tonight at 8pm cst... 


*"How Titus Pullo Brought Down the Republic" Episode #02.*
_Mark Antony returns to Rome; Vorenus heads home to his family; Pompey drafts an ultimatum stripping the general of his power. Adult Situations; Language; Nudity; Graphic Violence._


----------



## Fast Learner (Sep 5, 2005)

I agree that Pullo and Vorenus are the most interesting (and yeah, their fighting the brigands was awesome, showing what training could do), and wish the first episode had focused more on them. Here's hoping for the second to do so.

(Ok, actually, I guess what I want is for the episode to focus on those two, an then have 10 to 15 minutes of gratuitous nudity. But I'm not holding out hope.  )


----------



## mmu1 (Sep 5, 2005)

Was it Episode II last night, or episodes II and III? I missed it last night, and when I pulled it up on demand today, II and III were both available...


----------



## Liminal Syzygy (Sep 6, 2005)

From what I've read, III is available a weak early on demand. II just aired on the normal HBO.


----------



## mmu1 (Sep 6, 2005)

Seems like a strange thing to do - are they getting a poor response, and are trying to drum up more viewers? I liked it a lot so far.


----------



## Hand of Evil (Sep 6, 2005)

mmu1 said:
			
		

> Seems like a strange thing to do - are they getting a poor response, and are trying to drum up more viewers? I liked it a lot so far.



I think they realize people do not want HBO just to see one or two of the shows on it.  There is also the 'wave of the future' on-demand TV, you decide what you want to watch, when you want to watch it.


----------



## Simplicity (Sep 6, 2005)

I watched episodes 2 and 3 via on demand.  They're finally giving more time to the buddy cops.  In fact, those two episodes were really almost entirely about them.  They definitely should have made the first episode a 2-hour show...  

Episode 2 has an ending which is much more interesting than the end of episode 1 (wow... you mean soldiers *burn* things?).


----------



## Fast Learner (Sep 6, 2005)

As of ep 2: poor Voreanus! And worse, poor Pullo! Man, that's gotta hurt!


----------



## Steel_Wind (Sep 7, 2005)

Actually - what I have enjoyed most about the show is the sets and the lighting.

This, combined with the gratuitous sex in the presence of others is all aimed at bringing us back to another time.  And at the same time, connect with the viewer in the sense that these people were very much like us.

Given the actors, I don't expect the sex or the lighting was easy to do. But the show seems natuarally lit and appropriately so when indoors for the most part.


----------



## DreadPirateMurphy (Sep 8, 2005)

Ep. 2 benefitted from less hype, less boring exposition, and more plot.

Love the idea of the REAL triggering event for the fall of the Roman Republic.


----------



## Sir Brennen (Sep 8, 2005)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> I think they realize people do not want HBO just to see one or two of the shows on it.  There is also the 'wave of the future' on-demand TV, you decide what you want to watch, when you want to watch it.



Well... the On-Demand feature of my cable provider requires you to be an HBO subscriber to see HBO On-Demand content... I'll have to check if the third episode is on there yet.  (Another premium channel does have a selection of On-Demand movies that it shows before their regular cable run...)

I think this show is going to be a bit diffucult to discuss without referring to real world politics, which is informing some of the writing.  In fact, I'm surprised no one has gone down that road yet.  I guess the gratuitious nudity was pretty effective at capturing everyone's attention after all


----------



## Fast Learner (Sep 8, 2005)

Sir Brennen said:
			
		

> I think this show is going to be a bit diffucult to discuss without referring to real world politics, which is informing some of the writing.  In fact, I'm surprised no one has gone down that road yet.  I guess the gratuitious nudity was pretty effective at capturing everyone's attention after all



More than that, even: I don't see the parallels you're alluding to at all. Wanna give me a clue who Caesar or Pompey relate to, either one?


----------



## Mark CMG (Sep 10, 2005)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> More than that, even: I don't see the parallels you're alluding to at all. Wanna give me a clue who Caesar or Pompey relate to, either one?





Let's not go down that road, since it is against board policy.

I think it is a nice bonus that on-demand subscribers can get an early viewing of things.  That's a nice added value.

Anyway, here comes episode three...

*"An Owl in a Thornbush" Episode #03.*
_Pompey makes an unusual tactical decision; Atia enlists her mercenary to ensure her family's security; Pullo's unit intercepts a cargo wagon. Adult Situations; Language; Nudity; Graphic Violence._


----------



## johnsemlak (Sep 11, 2005)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> Yeah well...real Romans had huge schnozzes too and spoke Latin rather than the Queen's English.  It's not reality, it's HBO




Didn't upper-crust Romans speak Greek mostl of the time during that period?


----------



## Wayside (Sep 11, 2005)

Not primarily, but they knew it well enough.


----------



## Mark CMG (Sep 12, 2005)

Looks like Pullo is in way over his head...


----------



## fett527 (Sep 12, 2005)

Mark CMG said:
			
		

> Looks like Pullo is in way over his head...




Surprised me that he took the treasure.  I thought they'd have it end with him "returning" the wealth to Ceasar because he couldn't get the cart moving.  Fun to see what he can do with all that wealth...


----------



## Mark CMG (Sep 13, 2005)

fett527 said:
			
		

> Surprised me that he took the treasure.  I thought they'd have it end with him "returning" the wealth to Ceasar because he couldn't get the cart moving.




I thought as much, too.  It would have been the second time he was recognized for greatness he didn't deserve.  Maybe that seemed a bit much to the writers.  I saw in the preview of next week's episode that he goes to talk to his new buddy about it, so maybe they'll both make hay out of the incident.


----------



## Tarrasque Wrangler (Sep 13, 2005)

The more I watch this show, the more I realize that these guys are definitely the spiritual forefathers (if not the _actual_ forefathers) of every character on "The Sopranos".  Bit with Pullo and the ox-cart?  Pure Sopranos.  Mark Antony asking Caesar for X amount of gold to distribute to Pullo and Vorenus to find the gold eagle, and then turning around and pocketing half?  Pure Sopranos.  And if Livia Soprano wasn't a direct descendant of Atia, I'll eat my hat.


----------



## Shag (Sep 13, 2005)

Well according to real History Caesar does get the Treasury that Pompeius Magnus left behind.

I really like the accuracy on this show...the fact that Cato has no Tunic on under his Toga just blows me away...perfect.


----------



## LightPhoenix (Sep 13, 2005)

I must say, after seeing episodes two and three, the show has gotten much better.  Pullo and Vorenus are by far and away the heart of the show, and I'm glad the writers are focusing on them.  Octavian is a great character too; I don't know anything about the history, but I'm really hoping he and Octavia get to kill Atia.  Other characters range from likable to blah... Cato in particular I can't stand.  The stories seem to be much better paced... neither of the last two episodes dragged to me at all, let alone to the pace the intro did.


----------



## Mark CMG (Sep 15, 2005)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Octavian is a great character too;





Well, he's our "Basil Exposition," isn't he?   But with a twist, in that some of the subtlties of the political maneuvering _would_ actually be lost on the two buddy-soldiers, and even some of the others surrounding this young emperor-in-the-making, so it isn't jarring when he rattles off what happened, why, and possibly what might happen next.  I like how whenever he is done we see the looks on other people's faces (the mist clearing) and they often glance toward one another with "why didn't we see that?" looks.  I, too, like Octavian very much.  They are definitely making good use of Octavian in many ways, i.e. exposition, foreshadowing, comic relief, etc.


----------



## fett527 (Sep 15, 2005)

Mark CMG said:
			
		

> Well, he's our "Basil Exposition," isn't he?   But with a twist, in that some of the subtlties of the political maneuvering _would_ actually be lost on the two buddy-soldiers, and even some of the others surrounding this young emperor-in-the-making, so it isn't jarring when he rattles off what happened, why, and possibly what might happen next.  I like how whenever he is done we see the looks on other people's faces (the mist clearing) and they often glance toward one another with "why didn't we see that?" looks.  I, too, like Octavian very much.  They are definitely making good use of Octavian in many ways, i.e. exposition, foreshadowing, comic relief, etc.




I keep looking at him and can't get Doogie Howser out of my head.


----------



## Mark CMG (Sep 15, 2005)

fett527 said:
			
		

> I keep looking at him and can't get Doogie Howser out of my head.




  I keep thinking how much he's grown up since Master and Commander: Far Side of the World.


----------



## fett527 (Sep 16, 2005)

Mark CMG said:
			
		

> I keep thinking how much he's grown up since Master and Commander: Far Side of the World.



Good movie that.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Sep 16, 2005)

ddvmor said:
			
		

> When this turns up in the UK, it'll be interesting to see the focus on the violence and gore rather than the run of the mill nudity and sex.  We get loads of that!




Yeah. I've seen a few eps of "I, Claudius" they ran one time on Trio while over at a friend's house...


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Sep 16, 2005)

Mark CMG said:
			
		

> Another part of the writing and direction I enjoyed was how extremely competent they made the Roman soldiers appear.  It was as disciplined as I have ever seen it portrayed and really showed how such warriors could make short work of much larger numbers of lesser-trained fighters.




That was the main strength of the Roman army: it's training and discipline vs the "barbarians" who had no organization or any training as far as being in an army went. Sure they had warrior training but it was more one-on-one training than as a unit like the Romans had.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Sep 16, 2005)

mmu1 said:
			
		

> Seems like a strange thing to do - are they getting a poor response, and are trying to drum up more viewers? I liked it a lot so far.




IMO, if it wasn't on HBO, it might have more viewers. But then it'd have to tone down (from what I've read so far) on the violence and nudity.

I may have to wait for the DVD set to come out...


----------



## Mark CMG (Sep 18, 2005)

This week . . .

*"Stealing From Saturn" Episode #04.*
_Caesar seeks to consolidate his hold on Rome; Atia throws a party; Pullo delivers Quintus Pompey to Caesar. Adult Situations; Language; Nudity; Graphic Violence._


----------



## Mark CMG (Sep 18, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> That was the main strength of the Roman army: it's training and discipline vs the "barbarians" who had no organization or any training as far as being in an army went. Sure they had warrior training but it was more one-on-one training than as a unit like the Romans had.





Oh, yes, very true.  But this show really, really does it up right.  It's like watching a professional sports team (in the case of the army scenes) playing a high school varsity squad or a couple of professional boxers (in the case of when the two buddy-soldiers taking out the mercs/thieves) stepping into the ring and making short work of a handful of drunken brawlers.  It really is an amazing difference in skill levels being shown but you don't feel as if it is exaggerated, just that it's simply remarkable to the nth degree.


----------



## Fast Learner (Sep 18, 2005)

I agree, Mark. Somehow they manage to not make Pullo and Voreanus seem like supermen, just like really good soldiers. Normally that comes off fake to me, but here it seems really authentic and believable. Great stuff.


----------



## Mark CMG (Sep 18, 2005)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> I agree, Mark. Somehow they manage to not make Pullo and Voreanus seem like supermen, just like really good soldiers. Normally that comes off fake to me, but here it seems really authentic and believable. Great stuff.





Yup.


_I'm looking at you, Brad Pitt's portrayal of Achilles in Troy (which is not necessarily inappropriate given it's a mythical character, afterall)._


----------



## Mark CMG (Sep 25, 2005)

This week's episode...

*"The Ram Has Touched the Wall" Episode #05.*
_Caesar weighs Pompey's counteroffer; Vorenus must reconsider his career choices; Atia concocts a scheme to come between Caesar and Servilia. Adult Situations; Language; Nudity; Graphic Violence._


----------



## fett527 (Sep 26, 2005)

A little slow up until the sewer scene.  Though the scene with Titus on the stairs was LOL.  I'm still loving the show.


----------



## KaosDevice (Sep 26, 2005)

To back up an episode, how halarious was it watching Pullo being carried around on a litter? The guy just has absolutely no shame, but the second he was talking to Caeser it was 100% soldier all the way. That guy rocks.


----------



## Mark CMG (Sep 27, 2005)

Yeah, Pullo gets a bit nervous when he forgets his place, too.  His recent surgery hasn't seemed to slow him down much, either.


----------



## Tarrasque Wrangler (Sep 27, 2005)

If this show somehow goes under, I say turn it into the Pullo & Octavian Hour, and they can just go around torturing cheating husbands.  That scene in the sewer seriously rocked.  I just love that Octavian had Pullo _start_ with the guy's thumbs.

I only hope I can have a son like that someday *sniff*.


----------



## LightPhoenix (Sep 27, 2005)

Holy frak!!!  The sewer scene rocked!

Once again, Vorenus, Pullo, and Octavian simply dominated the episode.

Pullo and Octavian were great together, both in the sewer and with the training.  They have a great chemistry between them.  I loved how Pullo goes to Octavian for advice with Niobe's lover.  They both have a lot to learn from each other, and complement each other well... a lot like Vorenus and Pullo.

Speaking of Vorenus, I must say that I find him perhaps the most engaging character.  At the very least, he's the character that I identify the most with.  He's sincerely trying to be something more than a soldier... to be with his wife, with his family.  In the end though fate simply doesn't allow him to be anything more than a soldier.  He still struggles anyway.

I'm so waiting to see Atia die.  Again, I don't know the history at all, but I'm really hoping one of her children gets to do her in.


----------



## Tarrasque Wrangler (Sep 27, 2005)

> I'm so waiting to see Atia die. Again, I don't know the history at all, but I'm really hoping one of her children gets to do her in.



Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but Atia actually outlived Caesar himself (OK, by a year, in 43 BC).  She did live long enough to see her son Octavian's first consulship, the beginning of a somewhat notable career .

Incidentally, I thought about putting this in spoiler tags, but well, _it already happened._


----------



## fett527 (Sep 27, 2005)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> ...Incidentally, I thought about putting this in spoiler tags, but well, _it already happened._




Yeah, no need to put spoiler tags on history.


----------



## Broccli_Head (Sep 27, 2005)

Definitely looking forward to the next episode. 

I wonder if they will show Dyrrichium  (and Caesar's defeat) before  Pharsalus. 

Granted the story is about Rome, the city, but it woudl be nice to hear tidbits of what esle is going on in the Roman Republic (ie, C's gains in Spain)


----------



## DreadPirateMurphy (Sep 28, 2005)

Question:   Why did the child's status mean Titus shouldn't tell his friend about the adultery?  He was all for telling up until that point.


----------



## Mark CMG (Oct 2, 2005)

After tonight, halfway home . . .


*"Egeria" Episode #06.*
_Mark Antony runs Rome while Caesar pursues Pompey; Pullo takes Octavian to a brothel; Atia tries to mend fences with Servilia. Adult Situations; Language; Nudity; Graphic Violence._


----------



## Mark CMG (Oct 2, 2005)

DreadPirateMurphy said:
			
		

> Question:   Why did the child's status mean Titus shouldn't tell his friend about the adultery?  He was all for telling up until that point.





Pullo might have suspected Vorenus was the victim of cuckoldry but until the torture event Pullo, as everyone, hadn't thought anything about the child that has been thus far played off as the child of Vorenus' daughter.  Letting the news come out now might mean the death of the child.


----------



## Broccli_Head (Oct 3, 2005)

I thought last night's episode didnt' really go anywhere. 

Did like MA calling Attia a Harpy


----------



## Fast Learner (Oct 3, 2005)

I liked last night's episode, and enjoyed where it went:

1. Marc Antony is shown even more clearly for who he is.

2. Vorenus and his wife come to a point of peace, important for when  he heads off to war again.

3. Octavian is torn from his intellectual paradise.

4. Pullo is shown to be considerably more clever than I would have expected... perhaps he got the idea from Octavian, or perhaps Octavian just rubbed off on him.

5. Pompey turns out to have been in a much better position than it seemed, somehow re-amassing power while running around Greece without much money.

6. Julius Caesar's remaining force in Rome (or at least the bulk of it) leave the city entirely, opening up the future a great deal.

Felt like a standard episode to me, anyway. Though with extra penis.


----------



## Broccli_Head (Oct 3, 2005)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> Though with extra penis.





LOL...there was that. 

So as far as history goes..Caesar was beaten at Dyrrhachium...

"Moving north towards Dyrrhachium, he discovered Pompey entrenched there with an army of 45,000. Pompey saw no reason to risk a battle, since his fleet controlled the Adriatic, and Caesar's troops went hungry in the spring of 48, although eventually reinforcements arrived with Mark Antony.

Finally Caesar had to do something, so he tried to surround Pompey in Dyrrhachium and squeeze him. But Pompey was able to cave in the left of Caesar's line, Caesar lost 1,000 of his veterans in the fighting, and decided to leave the field to Pompey and content himself with being able to leave the field at all." --Wikipedia

So i guess we are at the "reinforcements from Antony" part. Im scarded though. Says that C. lost 1K of his veterans...Pullo and/or Voreanus?

Of course Pompey not pursuing his victory lead to C. being able to regroup for Pharsalus...


----------



## mmu1 (Oct 3, 2005)

Broccli_Head said:
			
		

> So i guess we are at the "reinforcements from Antony" part. Im scarded though. Says that C. lost 1K of his veterans...Pullo and/or Voreanus?
> 
> Of course Pompey not pursuing his victory lead to C. being able to regroup for Pharsalus...




Well, it looks like Pullo and Vorenus end up shipwrecked, judging by the previews of the next episode... And while historically, Ceasar's supposed to lose the upcoming battle, the writers have already played fast and loose with history a lot - in reality, years passed between the death of Pompey's wife / Ceasar's daughter and the civil war, but in the series it all seems to happen in a matter of months.


----------



## Mark CMG (Oct 3, 2005)

mmu1 said:
			
		

> And while historically, Ceasar's supposed to lose the upcoming battle, the writers have already played fast and loose with history a lot -




That seems an overstatement in light of the one example, which may or may not be the case.  They really don't discuss the timeline a great deal, except in relation to when MA was holding the Winter-to-Spring knife to the throat of the old guard ("No threat.  Snows _always_ melt . . ."  ).  Bringing a single incident forward in time to more dramatically set up the deteriorating political ties between C and P is hardly something that can be characterized as "fast and loose".


----------



## Fast Learner (Oct 3, 2005)

Agreed, I don't consider time compression to be much of a change at all, especially for dramatic purposes.


----------



## LightPhoenix (Oct 4, 2005)

I don't think it's a matter of playing with the timeline, I think it's a matter of them ignoring the passage of time as a barrier to things happening.  Since they mostly avoid talking about time, those who know the timeline can apply it, and those who do not can ignore it.  Either way it keeps the show moving.

Octavia and Pullo were the stand-outs this episode.  Especially Octavia, I don't know why but she was just great, IMO.


----------



## mmu1 (Oct 4, 2005)

Mark CMG said:
			
		

> That seems an overstatement in light of the one example, which may or may not be the case.  They really don't discuss the timeline a great deal, except in relation to when MA was holding the Winter-to-Spring knife to the throat of the old guard ("No threat.  Snows _always_ melt . . ."  ).  Bringing a single incident forward in time to more dramatically set up the deteriorating political ties between C and P is hardly something that can be characterized as "fast and loose".




Pompey's wife died in 54BC, much of the political maneuvering we've seen occurred ~51-52BC, the civil war started in 49BC with the crossing of the Rubicon, and, IIRC, Octavian was only 18 or so when Ceasar was killed in 44BC.

Don't get me wrong, I love the show, but that's hardly "bringing one incident forward in time".


----------



## Broccli_Head (Oct 4, 2005)

In between episode 5 and 6 two months have passed. Niobe says as much in relation to how long her sister has been staying with them and Evander's disappearence...

Loved Pullo's "I made some inquires..."


----------



## Mark CMG (Oct 4, 2005)

mmu1 said:
			
		

> Pompey's wife died in 54BC, much of the political maneuvering we've seen occurred ~51-52BC, the civil war started in 49BC with the crossing of the Rubicon, and, IIRC, Octavian was only 18 or so when Ceasar was killed in 44BC.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I love the show, but that's hardly "bringing one incident forward in time".




Points taken.  Shall we add to FL's choice of vocabulary and concede that it's been a worthwhile indiscretion of compression?


----------



## Mark CMG (Oct 4, 2005)

Broccli_Head said:
			
		

> Loved Pullo's "I made some inquires..."





I love a scene that's rich in subtext.


----------



## Broccli_Head (Oct 4, 2005)

i concede that i was hasty to judge this last episode. the more i think about it, and analyze the dialogue and events, the more i like it.


----------



## Steel_Wind (Oct 5, 2005)

The series is really starting to be quite enjoyable. A few things, in no particular order:


Atia is the uber_bitch of bitches;
Octavian is portrayed wonderfully; the viewer who has half a clue knows who he is  - so we are all in on the secret, as it were;
Marc Antony is a little odd, but he was loyal to Caesar;
Roman life seems "real". It's well done. These people lived and died and they lead real lives. It shines through;
The devoutness of the Romans to their religion is also well done. While not wholly original (Gladiator showed Maximus to be sincere in his religious observances as well) it is interesting. The links in aspects of their observances to what emerges as Roman Catholicism is also both authentic and well done. There is a reason for the stautes of the saints and all these damn candles in dark churches, after all. The hokum of auguries is shown as well - good with the bad.
Slavery is shown as oppressive bondage but not without its perqs to the few who were important slaves (Caesar's scribe and closest advisor, obviously being the most important example);
 Different sexual mores. While there is a little too much Caligula era decadence being shown, there are real insightful moments too. Slaves waiting and observing in the dark corners of the patrician Atia's bedchamber to serve when needed is a touch creepy and very real. 
Likewise, the subplot of Octavian's involvement in the death of the adulterer of Verenus' wife is a neat setup to his later changing the law as Augustus Caesar's in his _Adulterium_. Fanciful perhaps, but at least it's educated speculation with some purpose.

All-in-all, it's shaping up to be a damn fine series. I hope the ratings are good and the awards plentiful. A second, third and fourth season of Rome would be welcome.


----------



## fett527 (Oct 5, 2005)

Just chiming in that I loved the episode and am still watching.  Usually see it after original airing through On Demand.

Best line:  

Prostitute:  "Like Bull."


I will miss the interaction between Octavian and Pullo, but we will get more Pullo and Vorenus.


----------



## Mark CMG (Oct 5, 2005)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> the subplot of Octavian's involvement in the death of the adulterer of Verenus' wife is a neat setup to his later changing the law as Augustus Caesar's in his _Adulterium_. Fanciful perhaps, but at least it's educated speculation with some purpose.




Nice catch!


----------



## Broccli_Head (Oct 6, 2005)

this coming sunday's episode is called "Pharsalus"   

So i guess V. and P. miss Dyrrachium, but a still of the episode has Pullo in the front of a squad of legionarres so maybe..battle scence


----------



## Mark CMG (Oct 9, 2005)

He had some sizeable, if short, battle sequences in the first episode.  I'm hoping they give us more of that this week.

*"Pharsalus" Episode #07.*
_Vorenus and Pullo are marooned in the Adriatic Sea; Pompey decides to attack Caesar's depleted forces; Atia enlists Octavia to ask a favor of Servilia. Adult Situations; Language; Nudity; Graphic Violence._


----------



## Tarrasque Wrangler (Oct 9, 2005)

> Vorenus and Pullo are marooned in the Adriatic Sea




I desperately hope this turns into Rome's version of Paulie Walnuts and Christopher being "marooned" in the Pine Barrens on Sopranos.  BEST EPISODE EVAR.  Was there an ancient Roman equivalent to the ketchup packet these two can fight over?


----------



## Broccli_Head (Oct 10, 2005)

This episode rocked! Cant' wait for the next one esp from teh previews they gave....

Spoiler:

There is such an amazing dialogue in there between Pompey and Vorenus. I love how the director's focus on Pompey and his brokeness. He really shines as a tragic character...


----------



## Mark CMG (Oct 10, 2005)

Highlights?  Nice raft.  Octavia _becomes_ a woman.  Ceasar _reaches_ Rome, Pompey doesn't quite. 


The budget constraints show in the way they handle the battle sequences but I can forgive them being clever instead of throwing a little money at it and doing only a half assed job.


Favorite exchange?  Vorenus carving crudely on a rock (paraphrased):

Pullo:  What are you doing?
Vorenus: Writing to my wife.
Pullo:  Give her my best.
Vorenus: If there's room.


----------



## Broccli_Head (Oct 10, 2005)

Mark CMG said:
			
		

> The budget constraints show in the way they handle the battle sequences but I can forgive them being clever instead of throwing a little money at it and doing only a half assed job.




it woudl be hard to reproduce even with a movie budget...however the rehash later in the episode was right pretty close. as was the pressuring of pompey to give battle apparently...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Pharsalus

http://heraklia.fws1.com/battles/pharsalus/


----------



## Mark CMG (Oct 10, 2005)

Broccli_Head said:
			
		

> it woudl be hard to reproduce even with a movie budget...however the rehash later in the episode was right pretty close.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Pharsalus





And all the more dramatically conveyed, coming from the mouth of the defeated.  Defintely clever, and well played.  High marks from me, if that wasn't obvious.


----------



## fett527 (Oct 11, 2005)

I didn't mind the gloss over of the battle.  This is character driven and that would have detracted from the show.


----------



## Tarrasque Wrangler (Oct 11, 2005)

Wow.  As I'm not an expert on Pompey Magnus, I did *not* see that ending coming.  It's funny, but at the time I took it for a bit of Hollywoodizing history, as I didn't figure the way he died could have been that cinematic.  WRONG.  I went on Wikipedia the next day and that's pretty much exactly how he bought it, right down to being left in the surf.


----------



## fett527 (Oct 11, 2005)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> Wow.  As I'm not an expert on Pompey Magnus, I did *not* see that ending coming.  It's funny, but at the time I took it for a bit of Hollywoodizing history, as I didn't figure the way he died could have been that cinematic.  WRONG.  I went on Wikipedia the next day and that's pretty much exactly how he bought it, right down to being left in the surf.




Yeah.  Pretty cool.  I've been doing kind of the same, looking up the history after the episodes.


----------



## Broccli_Head (Oct 11, 2005)

fett527 said:
			
		

> Yeah.  Pretty cool.  I've been doing kind of the same, looking up the history after the episodes.




As am I. There was this show called _Life and Death in Rome_ that was shown on the History Channel the week HBO's _Rome_ first aired. There was one episode where they used the epitath of a centurion from his tomb as their template for that show. Woudl be cool if there were a real Vorenus or Pullo from which inspiration was gained.


----------



## MaxKaladin (Oct 11, 2005)

Broccli_Head said:
			
		

> Woudl be cool if there were a real Vorenus or Pullo from which inspiration was gained.



There was.  Titus Pullo and Lucius Vorenus were the only two soldiers in his army ever mentioned by name.  They took liberties with them (Pullo was a Centurion in real life) but they are inspired by real people.


----------



## Broccli_Head (Oct 11, 2005)

haha! found it. its like their first scene in episode 1. nice job screenwriters and directors!!

http://ummianum.typepad.com/my_weblog/entertainment/


----------



## fett527 (Oct 12, 2005)

Broccli_Head said:
			
		

> haha! found it. its like their first scene in episode 1. nice job screenwriters and directors!!
> 
> http://ummianum.typepad.com/my_weblog/entertainment/



OK, now that is kick-ass!


----------



## Mark CMG (Oct 16, 2005)

This week...

*"Caesarion" Episode #08.*
_Caesar arrives in Alexandria and meets the king; Vorenus and Pullo free Ptolemy's incarcerated sister; Caesar seeks payment from Egypt for past debts. Adult Situations; Language; Nudity; Graphic Violence._


----------



## Fast Learner (Oct 16, 2005)

I'm very excited. This series is just amazing.

I wonder if Marc Antony meets Cleopatra somewhere in here, or if historically that would be out of order.


----------



## Shag (Oct 17, 2005)

Yeah the whole Antonius/Cleopatra thing didn't happen till after Ceasar was dead. In fact that is why it happened.  Antonius went to Egypt for the power to knock out his rival Octavian.


----------



## Fast Learner (Oct 17, 2005)

Ah, thanks.


----------



## Broccli_Head (Oct 17, 2005)

Wow! just wow!

I enjoyed how they portrayed the decadence of Egypt, holding on to its former glory.


----------



## mmu1 (Oct 17, 2005)

I'm wondering how much things changed back in Rome - after all, almost a year has passed. (and it's the first time in the show where they so clearly acknowledge the passing of such a large amount of time)

I wish I could make sense of that fancy calendar they show occasionally.


----------



## Broccli_Head (Oct 17, 2005)

from the context of the show...marc anthony is consolidating power and making threats. the optimates (cato and scipio) are mustering a new army. many are/will be disturbed by Caesar's liason with Cleopatra and his 'son'..hehe


----------



## fett527 (Oct 18, 2005)

OK the Pullo and cleopatra thing was hilarious. Just watched it tonight.  Caesar's facila expressions are outstanding too!


----------



## Shag (Oct 18, 2005)

Egypt is where Ceasar's hubris really starts to catch up with him.
I really like how they cast Cleopatra, by alot of accounts she wasn't really all that great looking.  But she had charisma.

And Antonius is so freightning in this episode.  He has such a complete lack of morality.  He wants to be like Ceasar (and later Octavian) but he can't do it with the skills he has, so he makes up for it by just plain being dirty.

I was waiting to see in this episode how they would handle Ceasar's response to Pompeys murder.  Ceasar totally lost it on them.  How *DARE* they!!
See what they didn't understand is that in his mind to defeat an enemy is to make  them realize that he was right and they were wrong.


----------



## Broccli_Head (Oct 18, 2005)

fett527 said:
			
		

> OK the Pullo and cleopatra thing was hilarious. Just watched it tonight.  Caesar's facila expressions are outstanding too!




My wife and I were rolling with laughter at Pullo and Cleopatra's escapades. Kudos to Vorenus for not going through with things, and Pullo wanted it anyway..

LOL...Caesar's son really Pullo's? Awesome. They are truly blessed by Fortune.


----------



## Mark CMG (Oct 19, 2005)

They're running out of hooks down there.


----------



## LightPhoenix (Oct 19, 2005)

"Get in there and do what Her Majesty says, NOW."

I almost peed my pants.   

Also, great casting on Cleopatra.


----------



## fett527 (Oct 19, 2005)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Also, great casting on Cleopatra.




I heartily agree!


----------



## Mark CMG (Oct 20, 2005)

Cleo is quite the temptress, yes?


----------



## Steel_Wind (Oct 21, 2005)

The really sad thing is that there are only TWO episodes of Rome left to be aired AFAIK.

I expect there will be another "season" of Rome - but I am becoming wistful that this one is about to end.

NO BSG until January. No Rome. Seeing as that's the only TV I actually watch other than hockey, it going to be a long 2.5 months till Galactica comes back with new episodes.

Oh well.


----------



## Broccli_Head (Oct 21, 2005)

*only two more!?*

I thought they were doing 12 episodes for the season?


----------



## Mark CMG (Oct 21, 2005)

I had originally heard it was meant to be a twelve-part mini-series but, prompted by this discussion, I just checked their news page and have found out otherwise -

http://www.hbo.com/rome/news/



> 09.12.2005 | HBO renews the epic drama series Rome
> 
> HBO has renewed its epic drama series ROME for a second season, it was announced today by Carolyn Strauss, president, HBO Entertainment. Production of the 12-episode second season will begin next March, with the debut set for 2007.
> 
> ...


----------



## Mark CMG (Oct 31, 2005)

This week . . .

*"Utica" Episode #09.*
_Caesar returns home; Vorenus and Pullo have a showdown with a local thug; Servilia's plan backfires. Adult Situations; Language; Nudity; Graphic Violence._


----------



## UmmRa (Oct 31, 2005)

*wow...*

Imagine my surprise, finding my own weblog linked here.  (A better link is: http://ummianum.typepad.com/my_weblog/2005/09/update_and_a_wh.html to the post itself and not the category)

I've TiVo'd "Utica," but haven't watched it yet.

Note that Egypt as portrayed in "Caesarion" is heavily influenced by Roman accounts (no doubt, they're the only ones we have) which invariably present Egypt as a decadent land with an enslaved populace ruled by eunuchs and scheming brats.

While certainly, that characterization isn't probably far from the truth, it's worth remembering our perspective is biased.  When Roman authors sat down to write their history, poems, etc., they all paid lip service to Augustus and retroactively justified his actions...and, of course, the feminists would say that good Roman men would be threatened by a powerful, scheming woman...


----------



## Broccli_Head (Oct 31, 2005)

Servilla got 'jacked' bad. 

I dont think that the historical Atia was that scheming and evil. She acts more like the later imperial women.

from Wikipedia

_Atia was a religious and caring matron. She had doubts about her son's legitimacy as Caesar's heir. She died during her son's first consulship, in August/September 43 BC. Octavian gave her the highest honours at her funeral.
_


Only 3 more episodes. Im thinking that the last episode is Caesar's assassination.


----------



## Shag (Oct 31, 2005)

Just watching it now, a bit dissapointed for the first time, but I suppose they cut it for time.
Cato had one of the most horrible slow suicides I think in history.

Quote" Legend has it that Cato attempted to commit suicide by falling on his own sword. His servants found him on the ground and stitched up and bandaged his wound. Cato waited till they left him and then tore off the bandages and the stitches with his fingers and pulled out his own intestines, thereby completing his suicide attempt."

Wow!  That is hard core.


----------



## fett527 (Nov 1, 2005)

Once again the writing of Pullo's and Vorenus' story shines.  They are definitely blessed by the gods. The timing Ceasar's visit this time around shows it even more.


----------



## Mark CMG (Nov 1, 2005)

UmmRa said:
			
		

> Imagine my surprise, finding my own weblog linked here.




Welcome to the boards, UmmRa!


----------



## Fast Learner (Nov 1, 2005)

_Loved_ the ep, love the show. My only beef is that Octavian looked no older, when a youth of the actors age who was two years older would look _significantly_ different. I understand _why_, but it seems like Octavian has looked like he's 15 for about, what, 4 or 5 years of story time?


----------



## mmu1 (Nov 1, 2005)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> _Loved_ the ep, love the show. My only beef is that Octavian looked no older, when a youth of the actors age who was two years older would look _significantly_ different. I understand _why_, but it seems like Octavian has looked like he's 15 for about, what, 4 or 5 years of story time?




It's hard to tell exactly how much time is supposed to have passed - the events shown so far actually spanned about 8 years, historically speaking (and we're quickly getting to the point of Ceasar's assassination - only a year or two at most are left). This means that, for the first time during the show, Octavian actually looks the right age (he's supposed to be 18 when Ceasar dies). 

Based on things like Cleopatra's pregancy and Octavian being away at school for two years, the 3-4 years are probably as good a guess as you can make.

Still, I actually think they've made at least a small effort to make him look older - I think he either lost a little weight, or they're using makeup to make his features sharper, and I could swear they also gave him a hint of teenage facial hair.


----------



## Mark CMG (Nov 1, 2005)

I'm glad they are giving us plenty of reasons beyond just being jilted for Servilia to want to get some payback.


----------



## Tarrasque Wrangler (Nov 2, 2005)

I was thinking today about how unbelievable it would be if they set up the assassination plot _and somehow it fails_.  Brutus loses his nerve, or Pullo (true to form) jumps in the way right as the conspirators are about to strike and clobbers them.  And suddenly we go into Elseworlds mode, and the whole rest of the series is "What If Caesar Had Lived?".


----------



## UmmRa (Nov 2, 2005)

A couple of years ago, someone (Christian Meier?) suggested that Caesar might have deliberately allowed the conspirators to murder him.

While, certainly, this hypothesis isn’t beyond reason -- by 44 BC Caesar was a very sick, very arrogant man and may have seen suicide-by-Senate as the only Roman way out -- we are second-guessing an account that’s survived 2000 years of scrutiny.

For me, Cato’s end was a bit of a let down.  Future stoics would accord the man near messianic significance, so much so in fact, that Dante (c.1300) places him at the entrance to Purgatory and not in Hell with the other pagans.

Other interesting points:  1) Caesar was a notorious womanizer, in fact, he probably had a tryst with Cato’s wife.  2) Roman sources, though suspect here, relate that Antony was habitually _very_  drunk, to the point that he’d actually loose control of his bodily functions.

Rome is an incredible series and much better than anything I’ve seen set in the period.


----------



## Apollo (Nov 4, 2005)

I hope the show does not get to Caesar's assassination too quickly; he's a great character.  Octavian went away for 2 years.  Does anyone know how Caesar defeated Ptolemey?  He had a 100,000 men!?  I wonder what Pullo is going to do?


----------



## Mark CMG (Nov 4, 2005)

I expect this season culminates with Caesar's assassination.  With no guarenteees they would be picked up for more than their original mandate of episodes, it's the most reasonable place to end it.


I thought they made good use of costumes to age Octavian, btw.  Now that they'll be doing another season, in which he will likely figure very prominently, I'll bet that he will be hitting the workout room in the off-season in a serious effort to grow into his role.


----------



## fett527 (Nov 4, 2005)

Mark CMG said:
			
		

> ..I thought they made good use of costumes to age Octavian, btw.  Now that they'll be doing another season, in which he will likely figure very prominently, I'll bet that he will be hitting the workout room in the off-season in a serious effort to grow into his role.



For some reason I thought his hair made him look older.  Not sure what it was, I'll have to rewatch.


----------



## Mark CMG (Nov 5, 2005)

Coming this week . . .

*"Triumph" Episode #10.*
_Caesar is anointed emperor; Vorenus and Pullo plan their futures. Adult Situations; Language; Nudity; Violence._


----------



## Mark CMG (Nov 7, 2005)

A bit on the slow and somber side.  I expected we might see an episode that dipped down a bit on the excitement as they set up the finale.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Nov 9, 2005)

What a depressing episode.

Poor Pullo. 

I didn't think I'd surpass the pathos I felt for Vorenus and his "wife troubles," but this did it.


----------



## fett527 (Nov 9, 2005)

I really felt badly for Pullo as well.  I really wanted all the bad things to stop happening to him.


----------



## Old One (Nov 9, 2005)

Hehe...

Pullo is such the typical D & D fighter...

High STR, High CON, Low INT, Low WIS !

He did mangle that slave up but good...

~ OO


----------



## fett527 (Nov 9, 2005)

Old One said:
			
		

> Hehe...
> 
> Pullo is such the typical D & D fighter...
> 
> ...




I cringed every time he smashed that guy's head.  Not for the slave, but for Pullo digging his hole deeper every time the head hit the pillar.


----------



## mmu1 (Nov 9, 2005)

Well, he's got a ways to go, yet... 



Spoiler



IIRC, the previews from before the season started showed him fighting in a gladiatorial match, and one way to end up in the arena was as punishment for a crimes...


----------



## Shag (Nov 10, 2005)

Verinus looks spiffy in his toga candida.

Isn't the  stripe on the toga praetexta supposed to be tyrian purple?  It looks very red on my screen.  Or is tyrian purple just a reddish purple?


----------



## Mark CMG (Nov 10, 2005)

Coming this week . . .


*"The Spoils" Episode #11.*
_Pullo descends into Rome's netherworld; Vorenus is rewarded for his allegiance. Adult Situations; Language; Nudity; Violence._


----------



## Fast Learner (Nov 11, 2005)

Mark CMG said:
			
		

> Coming this week . . .
> 
> 
> *"The Spoils" Episode #11.*
> _Pullo descends into Rome's netherworld; Vorenus is rewarded for his allegiance. Adult Situations; Language; Nudity; Violence._



Underline mine. Been missing that in recent episodes. C'mon, ladies, let's get those tops off!

(Oh cripes, I've become a sleazy promoter for Romans Gone Wild. Save me!)


----------



## Tarrasque Wrangler (Nov 11, 2005)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> Underline mine. Been missing that in recent episodes. C'mon, ladies, let's get those tops off!




I like the cut of your jib, sir.

Just remember though: "nudity" can mean dudes too.  IE Mark Antony's sponge bath scene in episode 4.


----------



## Old One (Nov 14, 2005)

Damn!

That brute Pullo is just...so...loveable !

What is his bonus in _Bluff_?

I particularly liked decapitating one of the first trio with the shield (along with Vorenus hamstringing the guy a bit later on), nice touch.

~ OO


----------



## Truth Seeker (Nov 14, 2005)

Well, finally saw a esp...I was *Impressed*.

Man, now must see all the past ones.


----------



## Tarrasque Wrangler (Nov 14, 2005)

Man oh man, that was BRUTAL.  That arena fight was as gnarly as anything in Gladiator.  And go Vorenus!  From now on, I will judge my friends on whether they'd jump in the ring and fight a huge guy with a mace for me.

I've got some buddies, but I don't think I've got any ARENA friends.


----------



## Broccli_Head (Nov 14, 2005)

i did like that episode. im glad L. Vorenus and T. Pullo's relationship was stronger than what left me in the last episode. 

brutus on the other hand came across as a whiner and driven by his emotions (which makes him ez target for the conspirators)

in the preview, was that Vorenus in senator's robes?

is pullo gonna be offed while recooping?

Does V. join in the killing of JC?

cant wait till this weekend.


----------



## Shag (Nov 15, 2005)

Nah he just had the regular old toga pura on.  I wonder if he has been promoted to equestrian rank.  I doubt it but he must be getting close to qualifying...He has mentioned owning farm land, plus a butcher shop.


----------



## jaerdaph (Nov 15, 2005)

Old One said:
			
		

> Damn!
> 
> That brute Pullo is just...so...loveable !
> 
> ...




Titus Pullo is definitely my favorite character. Not only is he responsible for the fall of the Republic, he's probably the real father of Cleopatra's and Ceasar's son too!


----------



## fett527 (Nov 17, 2005)

jaerdaph said:
			
		

> Titus Pullo is definitely my favorite character. Not only is he responsible for the fall of the Republic, he's probably the real father of Cleopatra's and Ceasar's son too!




The Pullo character is just awesome.  I was getting VERY upset when I thought he was going to get run through, I actually pumped my fist in joy when Vorenous came out of the crowd.  And that fight scene was great, very well done.


----------



## Mark CMG (Nov 19, 2005)

This week . . .

*"Kalends of February" Episode #12.*
_Pullo and Vorenus are rewarded; Caesar decides to overhaul the Senate; Servilia hurdles the final obstacle in her revenge scenario. Adult Situations; Language; Nudity; Violence._


----------



## Tarrasque Wrangler (Nov 20, 2005)

Ancient Rome geeks: Are the "Kalends of February" anything like the "Ides of March"?


----------



## shilsen (Nov 20, 2005)

I'm not a Roman history geek, but IIRC, the Kalendae/calends (root of the word calendar) referred to the 1st of the month, while the Ides fell about the middle of the month (13th or 15th).


----------



## Steel_Wind (Nov 20, 2005)

Episode #11 is where they finally let the purse strings loosen.  The shots of the Forum were impressive as hell and the Triumph scenes were finally Hollyood worthy.

The Arena fight would have been more impressive in a true arena, but it was nasty and gritty all the same.

It is an amazing series. While not quite Band of Brothers, it is one of the best things I have seen on TV.

After the last episode, Jan 6/06 and the return of BSG is going to seem like a long wait...


----------



## Steel_Wind (Nov 20, 2005)

On another point...

So much of the common scenes in the Rome series seems to ring true to me (not that a lot of it isn't hollywood pap - it is) that the reality of it almost seems depressing in a way.  Makes you feel very mortal sometimes.

These people lived and died and everything they were is just.... gone.  I guess "what they did in life echoes in eternity", but unlike a fantasy or SF film - what is represented as a society in this series was once very real, so it seems kind of bittersweet to behold its glory. 

Am I the only one who feels a little melancholy watching all this grandeur that once was and never will be again?


----------



## Steel_Wind (Nov 20, 2005)

Broccli_Head said:
			
		

> is pullo gonna be offed while recooping?




I would doubt that they will want to make Vorenus part of the conspiracy to kill Caesar.

There is a second series in the works and they will build it around the major historical characters. But somehow, I think Vorenus and Pullo must have their role in it. The pre-existing connection with Octavian and Marc Anthony will be exploited.

Can't let these two die or become the enemies of MA and Octavian. The series must go on...


----------



## Mark CMG (Nov 20, 2005)

SW - I concur all around.  2,000+ years of "gone", eh?



			
				Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Can't let these two die or become the enemies of MA and Octavian. The series must go on...




Well, Octavian likes them for saving his life (and more).  MA has been chided by JC for wanting to kill them both and cued into the idea that they might both be "blessed by the gods" in some way, so it's unlikely he'll tempt fate by messing with them too much (and, IMO, is more likely now to want to keep them both close).  I think they've done a fine job of weaving them into the inner circles so we can keep seeing history, somewhat, through their eyes and experiences.  We'll see.


----------



## mmu1 (Nov 20, 2005)

Broccli_Head said:
			
		

> Does V. join in the killing of JC?




See, I don't think this will happen. Vorenus vaccilated so much before signing up with Marc Anthony and running for magistrate for Ceasar not because he's [Brutus]indecisive or unpendable[/Brutus] but because of how seriously he takes something once he's committed to it. 

Last episode was a great example of this - he might have talked about Pullo being dead to him, but what did he do in the end?


----------



## Steel_Wind (Nov 20, 2005)

mmu1 said:
			
		

> Last episode was a great example of this - he might have talked about Pullo being dead to him, but what did he do in the end?




Near as I can tell, he:


 As a magistrate of Rome, directly interfered in a state execution of a murderer - who was in fact guilty of the crime alleged
 thereby committed murder (if one can murder a gladiator)
 expressly disobeyed the direct order of the Emperor not to become involved 

Near as I can tell, Vorenus is now a criminal and has betrayed Caesar's direct orders and the law of Rome. He had better hope the XIII stands with him or he is in a fair bit if trouble - probably the only thing which will save him is Caesar's assasination.

So much for Vorenus' high ideals.


----------



## Morrus (Nov 20, 2005)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> probably the only thing which will save him is Caesar's assasination.




I'd wager that that is what saves him.  I'd like to see both of them in the next series.


----------



## Fast Learner (Nov 20, 2005)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> So much for Vorenus' high ideals.



Blessedly, ideals don't always win out.


----------



## Old One (Nov 21, 2005)

Damn...

That was...unexpected!  Not JC bitin' the dust of course, but Vorenus's wife's...errr...exit, shall we say.  I see a little Vorenus/Pullo role-reversal coming next season.

~ OO


----------



## mmu1 (Nov 21, 2005)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> So much for Vorenus' high ideals.




Yeah... I mean, the guy decided to throw in with Ceasar, when all he had to do was say no, thank you, I don't want to be a magistrate, there's an armed mob waiting to kill me and my friend, and rape my wife that I need to get back to.  

Not that I was talking about his ideals, anyway - I was talking about his sense of loyalty.


----------



## Mark CMG (Nov 21, 2005)

"First, I will make you run." 

Well, of course, now I cannot wait for the next season.


----------



## satori01 (Nov 21, 2005)

Vorenus will survive, I am almost sure of it,  he has to in order to pull off the eventual tough choice of staying true to his word of being loyal to Anthony "unto death",  or supporting Octavian.

I loved the final scene with Sevalia, and how they framed the shot so that Octavian is framed in the background the whole time.  Kinda brings home that whole power is fleeting morale doesnt it


----------



## ShinHakkaider (Nov 21, 2005)

Mark CMG said:
			
		

> "First, I will make you run."
> 
> Well, of course, now I cannot wait for the next season.




And long wait it will be. Rome returns sometime in 2007.


----------



## Azlan (Nov 21, 2005)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> The Arena fight would have been more impressive in a true arena, but it was nasty and gritty all the same.



IIRC... During the time of Julius Caeser, the grand "true" arena (as depicted in the movie Gladiator) hasn't been built yet. So, the producers were being historically accurate (as well as budget saving), by showing the gladiator fights in such a lesser arena.


----------



## Azlan (Nov 21, 2005)

satori01 said:
			
		

> Vorenus will survive, I am almost sure of it,  he has to in order to pull off the eventual tough choice of staying true to his word of being loyal to Anthony "unto death",  or supporting Octavian.



Vorenus will not have to make that choice between the two... at first.

Mark Anthony and young Gaius Octavian will be teaming up, at first, to exact their great revenge on the murderers of, and the plotters against, Julius Caeser. Afterward, the two will split the Roman Empire between them. Octavian will even give his sister, Octavia, in marriage to Anthony.

It's years later, when Anthony goes to Egypt and has an affair with Cleopatra, that Octavian gets pissed off and the two men start battling.

All of this, of course, is according to history.


----------



## Broccli_Head (Nov 21, 2005)

Azlan said:
			
		

> Vorenus will not have to make that choice between the two... at first.
> 
> Mark Anthony and young Gaius Octavian will be teaming up, at first, to exact their great revenge on the murderers of, and the plotters against, Julius Caeser. Afterward, the two will split the Roman Empire between them. Octavian will even give his sister, Octavia, in marriage to Anthony.
> 
> ...




Actually...Antony and Octavian fight it out at first at Mutina, then ally against the conspirators forming the Triumvarate, then fight it out again. 

long historical quote..

_The situation was now highly volatile. Decimus Brutus, backed by the senate, was resisting Antony under arms, and retired to the fortified town of Mutina in Cisalpine Gaul. Antony had four legions, Octavian had five. All the armed parties were mutually antagonistic. The senate, led by Cicero in his last great political action, identified Antony as the greater threat. [[14]] Cicero and Antony were now on opposing sides, following an acrimonious oratorical exchange in the senate that started in September 44 BC. At this crucial juncture, then, Cicero deployed his considerable rhetorical skill to Octavian's benefit and began to champion his cause as a foil to Antony's power. As a result, on 1 January, 43 BC Octavian's essentially illegal command of men under arms was legitimized with a grant of propraetorian power. As such, Octavian continued his preparations to attack Antony, now declared a public enemy, who had begun besieging Decimus Brutus at Mutina. Octavian, now an official representative of the republic, led his force into the region and moved against Antony. [[15]]

In two engagements in April, Antony was bested and fled over the Alps to his political allies in Transalpine Gaul. Both consuls for 43 BC, however, perished in the fighting around Mutina, and Octavian, as the senior commander on the spot, refused to cooperate any further with Decimus Brutus, a murderer of his father. The senators, it appears, hoped that Octavian would now go away. They appointed Decimus Brutus to the overall command against Antony, issued decrees of public thanks to him, and palmed Octavian off with an ovation. When a commission to distribute land to veterans was set up, Octavian was pointedly omitted. Smarting at such insulting treatment, Octavian bided his time and put in requests for a consulship (with Cicero as his colleague) and a triumph. Meanwhile, Antony was preparing to return to Cisalpine Gaul with enormous forces gained from Caesarian commanders in Transalpine Gaul. The situation remained unstable.[[16]] 
_


----------



## Shag (Nov 21, 2005)

Great Episode and great series!!!


Only thing that bugged me was that Octavian isn't even supposed to be in Rome at all.
The only question I have is:  Where is Marcus Agrippa in all this?? He is Octavians right hand man for almost his entire life.  They can't just omit him, can they?


----------



## Fast Learner (Nov 22, 2005)

Great ending! Really sucks to lose Niobe, though. Poor Vorenus.


----------



## Steel_Wind (Nov 23, 2005)

For the most part, I think TV is an absolute wasteland.

A few series - _BSG_, and *maybe* 24 are watchable if not very good (in the case of_ BSG_), but for the most part it is complete drivel.

And then every now and then - series like _Band of Brothers_ or _Rome_ come along - and remind you just how good the medium can be.

It's like like _Lord of the Rings _ at the cinema.  They charge you the same admission price to _ROTK_ as they did for a turd of a movie like _Alone in the Dark_.  One reminds you just how good the movies can be when Hollywood is bothered to try; the other just how bad a motion picture can be when people go through the motions.

A long wait until MA and Octavian wreak vengeance upon the murderers of Caesar.

"_First, I will make you run_."

(And Second - *_bitch_* - the boy you ignored on the left will grind your family into the dirt beneath his sandals).

So - all of this because Pullo had some gambling debts and Seblilia had a few naughty pictures of her painted on the wall.


----------



## Broccli_Head (Nov 23, 2005)

yes..Servillia's character comes across as very self-absorbed. jilted by Caesar, so she plots to ruin his family and kill him. Did you see the look Octavian gave her as they left? She's dead.

 I was right about Vorenus being elevated to Senator, and I could tell how much I got into the series as I got angry when Cassius and the other Liberators commented on the plebian nature of V.  And how much blood did you guys give for your Precious Rome? Grrr....

Im glad they all get theirs in the end. I hope Pompey's son gets it particularly bad. Good acting by that guy to make him such a despicable character. 

I can't belive Niobe is dead.

So how long do we have to wait? Anyone know?


----------



## Steel_Wind (Nov 23, 2005)

Broccli_Head said:
			
		

> So how long do we have to wait? Anyone know?




Best guess - about 18 months.

Principal Photography on Rome II start in March 2006. 

So expect it sometime in the first half of 2007 is my guess.


----------



## Azlan (Nov 23, 2005)

Broccli_Head said:
			
		

> I can't belive Niobe is dead.



So, do you think Vorenus (her husband) would've killed her, if she had not commited suicide? He looked so enraged, there. After learning that his grandson was actually his wife's baby from an affair with another man, Vorenus' face became so twisted and red with anger, he was almost unrecognizable. And then, just before Niobe fell to her death from the balcony, Vorenus was gripping that kitchen knife.


----------



## Steel_Wind (Nov 23, 2005)

Is it possible? Maybe. We will never know. I guess Vorenus will never know either.

Niobe thought it was possible - that much is clear.


----------



## Mark CMG (Nov 23, 2005)

Do we know for a fact that she is dead?  Certainly they imply it, and it would be one of the least brutal deaths on the show so far (physically, though not emotionally), but do we know from more than seeing her cradled in his arms?  Maybe they can just drill her brain like Pullo . . .


----------



## Viking Bastard (Nov 23, 2005)

Uh-oh.


----------



## Tarrasque Wrangler (Nov 24, 2005)

That link's not working for me, Viking.  In fact, I can't pull up AICN at all right now.  What did they post there?


----------



## fett527 (Nov 24, 2005)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> That link's not working for me, Viking.  In fact, I can't pull up AICN at all right now.  What did they post there?



It points to this NYT article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/17/arts/television/17hbo.html?8hpib



> Mr. Albrecht announced only a couple of weeks into its run that he was renewing the series for another season. But in the interview he said, "That ship hasn't entirely sailed yet."
> The reason, he said, has nothing to do with how well "Rome" turned out. Mainly, the issue has been money. "Rome" was wildly expensive, costing an estimated $100 million. It initially experienced debilitating production delays, fueling rumors that it was a troubled show. Once it was on the air and was seen to be a quality production, Mr. Albrecht said, those rumors subsided.
> But he said those delays meant he had only a short window of time to retain a hold on the actors, which was why he renewed the series so quickly. For now, that means ordering scripts, which will be difficult to write because they need to cover the complicated period following the fall of Caesar.


----------



## Broccli_Head (Nov 24, 2005)

It would be nice if they had a show about Octavians rise to power. Augustus did so much more to form  the Imperium and help Rome survive the period of despotism from Sulla to Caesar.


----------



## MaxKaladin (Dec 3, 2005)

Broccli_Head said:
			
		

> It would be nice if they had a show about Octavians rise to power. Augustus did so much more to form  the Imperium and help Rome survive the period of despotism from Sulla to Caesar.



I'm sure that's what the next few seasons will be about.  Caesar's assassination pretty much kicked that off and I'm sure we'll jump right into his rise next season (along with Pullo and Vorenus' personal drama).  I'm predicting next season will cover the immediate aftermath of the assassination up through the formation of the triumverate  and the third will cover Anthony and Cleopatra through their fall.  

I'm especially looking forward to seeing Antony's face when he finds out Octavian is Caesar's heir.


----------

