# Adventuring Tactics Masterclass: Giants.



## nikolai

Hi all,

I want try this idea out on you all and see if it gets a good response.

For a monster type the board brainstorms tactics which would be useful against it, the more cunning the better. No holds barred, everything from interesting uses of spells, optimum character design, melee tactics, spell selection, weapon selection, etc. Hopefully it'll become a neat resource for players facing the monster in question and an idea mine: whether people design characters from scratch for a campaign, or find themselves unwittingly thrown against them.

This thread's topic is *Giants*.

I'll kick things off...

*Spell tactic: ready Shatter against a thrown rock.*

The giant won't get a save, since the rock'll be in the air, and it gives spellcasters a way of countering the giants ranged weapon capability - particularly with the less powerful giants. While the other member of the party pound their foe from a distance. Making your opponents turn ineffective is a valuable tactic in many circumstances - the catch is it only works well on solitary giants.

Other ideas? all contributions welcome!

nikolai.


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## Victim

Combat tactic 2:  Negate reach.  The reach ability of giants and other large monsters gives them free attacks.  Obviously, this is bad.  Use Spring Attack or Tumble to close without provoking a free attack.  Alternatively, use a weapon with exceptional reach.

Also: Avoid the full attack.  As strong fighter type monsters, giants launch multiple attacks at fairly high bonuses with good damage.  Against these enemies, or monsters with lots of natural attacks - like Girallons - withdraw after attacking to prevent the enemy from taking a full attack sequence.  Depending on the exact circumstances, it can be better to take an AoO and a single attack than a full attack series.  Also, if combined with the above, you can limit the enemy to a single attack.  Finally, since giants aren't usually spellcasters, you can use Haste to launch a full attack, and then withdraw.


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## AuraSeer

_Shatter_ing thrown rocks wouldn't be very useful, because all the MM giants can chuck at least two rocks per round. Neat idea though. 


When fighting multiple giants, take on one at a time whenever possible. Because they have reach, a character being meleed by two or more cannot escape without suffering multiple AoOs. If more than a few are encountered, use _Wall_ spells to split one or two off from the rest, and take them down before their fellows can rejoin them.


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## shilsen

Fight at range, if possible. Giant boulders look impressive, but they're usually far less proficient with boulders than with their melee weapons, and do less damage.

Target them with spells requiring Will and Reflex saves. Spells with ranged touch attacks are also good, since their touch AC usually sucks (and taking advantage of that with a melee touch attack is difficult). 

If fighting multiple giants, try to use them for cover against each other. With at least large size, an intervening giant is going to provide very substantial cover for a medium or smaller creature.


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## Kraedin

Giants have *very* bad Will saves (+4, +4, +5, +6).  Target that weakness.  _Hold monster_, _confusion_ or _charm monster_ should prove effective.  Even _Tasha's hideous laughter_ can work.  (Not very well because of the +4 bonus they get against it, but still.)


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## Lord Zardoz

*Giants are not for climbing...*

Despite the possible tactical advantages of doing so, it is generally ill advisable to attempt to Climb a Giant.

When possible, try to use Trip maneuvers against it, which can greatly cut down on its ability to use its iterative attacks.

END COMMUNICATION


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## Ridley's Cohort

Think about shaping the battlefield to control the pace of combat.  Giants have good offenses and little else except HPs.  If you attempt to match strength with strength, you may well prevail but you are putting your lives at the mercy of the dice -- a giant critical can do a massive amount of damage, especially those individuals that use good two-handed weapons like axes.  Slowing the pace down also gives your cleric a chance to heal up the wounded.

Always have walls and fogs handy.  That allows you to shut down the ranged boulder attacks and bring them closer where you can melee, or bunch them up for a later AoE spell.  It is also useful to break LOS when you have a wounded comrade in a giant's threat zone, or the party needs to retreat.  A Sleetstorm or Web (don't laugh!) will can slow giants down for a round or two and buy some time.  
If giants stand off and use reach, it will be easy to place AoEs without hurting your friends.

Giant Will and Reflex saves are poor.  Besides the obvious choices (e.g. Confusion), Slow and Grease are surprisingly effective against giants.

Have a retreat plan.  Giants have good movement factors.  Wall of Force is handy here.


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## Gaiden

Particular good against giants are the following set of tactics:

If giant on stone surface:

For really low levels:

Throw 2-ball bolas - autotrip (doesn't realy matter if you are proficient - its only a touch attack and most of a giant's AC comes from armor or NA).  Have rogue tumble in to hamstring opponent while wizard casts slow (if hold monster is not available).  Have anyone who is able, cast web/entangle/briar web.  Fire some arrows, summon swarm, whatever.

For mid levels:

Hold Monster, Charm Monster, wall of force+summon swarm, falling wall of stone+stoneshape, slow+spring attack w/fast movement (with hamstring, even better), Arcane Trickster with ray of frost against fire giants or finger of fire against Frost Giants, Stoneskin+oil of slipperiness+melee attacks,psionic attacks using PAM that deals wis, int, or dex dmg.

For High Levels:

dominate monster

or my favorite:

wall of force + summon swarm = dead giant w/no save


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## Shallown

Definately keep them at range. their bolders hurt when the hit but they seldom due. Get cover and shoot as much as possible. 

Mobility is also important usually splitting up is a bad idea but if you spread out and make sure that you can out run them you can sometimes keep plugging them at range while they chase someone else. Rogues are good for this with tumble and expertise, fighting defensivly they can keep thier AC up enough to avoid a few blows while leading the Ginats around in circles.

As the group I run did in the last game. Send in the dwarven hasted fighter. he had no effective range and sure as heck couldn't run in full plate but his AC was great so he stood toe to toe for a while with the giant allowing the rogue to roll in sneak attack and still keep his AC up high as described before.

later


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## Elder-Basilisk

*Re: Giants are not for climbing...*

Actually, this is generally a very very bad idea. Trip requires a touch attack which is easy but then forces you to make an opposed strength check with size modifiers against a giant (and giants usually tend to be stronger than PCs). Even a bull's strengthed raging barbarian will have trouble getting a 50% chance at succeeding.

What's more, if you fail the check (as you probably will), you give the giant a chance to trip you back (which he probably will--remember the strength and size difference). If that succeeds, you'll be unable to retreat and the giant is likely to get a full attack with a +4 attack bonus because you're prone.

By the time you're able to have a decent chance at success (18+ level when 30 strengths are the norm for front-line fighters), the giants you can trip won't be a significant challenge. And you still won't be able to trip the giants who are a challenge.



			
				Lord Zardoz said:
			
		

> *When possible, try to use Trip maneuvers against it, which can greatly cut down on its ability to use its iterative attacks.
> END COMMUNICATION *


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## DanMcS

AuraSeer said:
			
		

> *If more than a few are encountered, use Wall spells to split one or two off from the rest, and take them down before their fellows can rejoin them. *




Oh, lord, this is effective.  Played Halls of the Fire Giant King at the Ohio gameday.  We set up a wall of force across most of the main hall, which trapped the king and kept him from escaping, prevented most of them from attacking us while we took on their front line, stopped all those nasty boulder tosses, and funnelled the second line into walking through a narrow gap betwixt force wall and the real wall, where they nicely lined up for a cone of cold.  It was swell.

Side note: mirror image was handy dandy there too, several giants had readied boulders against spellcasters, and they took out some of my mirror images before I put up the wall of force, but didn't hit me.  After that, the battle was practically over.

Heck, though, the wall tactic is probably valid against most any large group of enemies you might face.


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## Someone

Ridley's Cohort said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Giant Will and Reflex saves are poor.  Besides the obvious choices (e.g. Confusion), Slow and Grease are surprisingly effective against giants.*




That´s particulary true. We had a good laugh once with an athach, a Grease spell and a summoned fiendish dire weasel. Target the giant´s weapon with the Grease spell; it´ll lose most of it´s punch and will draw lots of AoO if it tries to recover it or fight unarmed.


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## nikolai

*Spell choice...*

Here's a question.

Is it worth using direct damage spells (Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Cone of Cold etc.) on giants? Or is it better to stick with things like Grease, Glitterdust and other save-or-be-weakened spells. Also, which are the best creature to summon against them.

Any ideas on good feat choices for if you want to make a giant killer.

nikolai.


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## AuraSeer

Direct damage is usually not the best tactic against giants, because they tend to have high HP for their CR. A single damage spell will probably not kill any of them, which means the giant group is still able to attack you at full power.

For instance, say you're fighting a gang of hill giants. If you throw a _Cone of Cold_, it probably won't do 102 hp, so even those who fail their saves will still be standing. Their combat effectiveness has not been diminished, so they'll commence pounding on you and your allies. 

If you instead use a hampering spell, like _Slow_ or _Grease_ or _Wall of Force_, you diminish the number of giants who can immediately harm your party. That means you'll take less damage on this round. It also lets your allies concentrate on one or a few giants, and put them out of the fight quickly. That in turn means there are fewer enemies to attack you in later turns.

Direct damage is best against "mage-type" enemies with a lot of special abilities, because they have few hp for their CR. Giants are "fighter-type" enemies; they're good at taking damage, but have few defenses against nondamaging effects.


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## shilsen

nikolai said:
			
		

> *Any ideas on good feat choices for if you want to make a giant killer.
> *




Depends on the type of character, since most classes could make effective giant killers.

Melee combatant - Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack are very useful, to attack and move so as to avoid full attacks. For a PC who wants to stand toe-to-toe with the giant (yikes!), AC-oriented feats like Expertise help (esp. good on a dwarf or a gnome). 

Ranged combatant - Rapid Shot (Point Blank Shot, as a prerequisite). Far Shot and Precise Shot might be handy too.

Spellcaster - Spell Focus (Enchantment) and (Transmutation).


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## Sir Whiskers

Just to take the other side:

Giants should use overrun to knock down the front line fighters. Any PC's tripped by the overrun attack will have to use a move-equivalent action just to stand, taking away their own full-attack action. If the front line fighters choose to avoid the overrun, the giants simply continue forward to attack the spellcasters and archers. If an overrun is not possible, they should use trip attacks to keep the fighters from getting away, using full-attack actions the following round.

In the same vein, giants should not be afraid to take AoO's while moving past the fighters to get at the weaker party members. Force those spellcasters to cast defensively.

If it's a large group of giants, a few should ready an action to throw boulders at any PC attempting to cast a spell - if just one hits, the spell's probably lost.

As for giants' weak will saves, if no cleric is available to cast buffing spells, GM's should consider giving a few giants a level or two of barbarian. A raging giant gains +4 STR, +4 CON and +2 Will saves all for a measly -2 AC.
___________________________

Taking into consideration the giants' tactics, it seems to me the posters who've suggested splitting up the opponents are on the right track. Limit the number of giants that the party fights at any one time, restrict their movement, use spells that allow the party to dictate engagement range (expeditious retreat, levitate, fly), and use enchantment spells to disable individual opponents.


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## Geoff Watson

*Re: Spell choice...*



			
				nikolai said:
			
		

> *Here's a question.
> 
> Is it worth using direct damage spells (Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Cone of Cold etc.) on giants? Or is it better to stick with things like Grease, Glitterdust and other save-or-be-weakened spells. Also, which are the best creature to summon against them.
> 
> nikolai. *




Depends on the Giant.
Giants have bad reflex saves, so an area spell could do a lot of damage if there are enough giants to be affected.
Fire Giants and Frost Giants are vulnerable to Cold or Fire, so a couple of Fireballs can make short work of a bunch of Frost Giants.

Geoff.


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## AuraSeer

*Re: Re: Spell choice...*



			
				Geoff Watson said:
			
		

> *
> Giants have bad reflex saves, so an area spell could do a lot of damage if there are enough giants to be affected.*



That's not the point. Sure, if you catch 20 hill giants in the area of one Maximized _Fireball_ you have potentially done 1200 total damage, and that sounds impressive. But not one of those giants will actually go down, and they'll remain at full combat effectiveness. If they're within charge range, you might not get a chance for another spell.

Frost and Fire giants are an exception, since their hp are effectively halved when dealing with their opposing element. That changes the whole tactical situation.


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## Someone

*Re: Spell choice...*



			
				nikolai said:
			
		

> *Also, which are the best creature to summon against them.
> 
> *




As I said before, the dire weasel (Summon monster III) is an excelent choice if the giant is already dazzled, stunned or blinded. The critter drains 2d4 Con points if it manages to hit and live for 1 round. Note that, since Giants have lots of hit dice, the con draining will mean lots of hit points less.


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## Gaiden

Classes:

Gnome Giant Killer (Dragon)
Foe Hunter (MotW)
Ranger

Feats:

Spring Attack
Hamstring
Close Quarters Combat
Clever Wrestling
Pebble Under the Foot
Knockdown
Expertise
Superior Expertise
Deflect Arrow
Snatch Arrow
Damage Reduction Increase

Weapons:

Reach Weapons
Disarming Weapons
BIG weapons

Abilities:

Poison
spells w/Will or Reflex saves
Walls
mind blast
entangling effects
stoneskin
damage reduction


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## Piratecat

Admin note: when this thread is essentially finished, someone please post in Meta, and I'll be sure to archive it. This stuff is great..


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## Gaiden

I forgot to mention the Giant Killer (slayer - IDHMBWM) from the Silver Marches.  I don't like it nearly as much as the foe hunter which is less specific, but that is personal preference.

Also, for the dire weasel tactic - you could always make the weasel invisible to make it live longer.


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## nikolai

*What's a cleric or rogue to do?*

I'm pleased the thread's going so well and it's fantastic we've got the Piratecat seal of approval.

There's been a lot ideas on tactics for Fighters and Wizards. With the standard practice being to use spells to weaken giants and then reduce their hit points by peltting them from range.

Any ideas on what should clerics and rogues should do?

Giants can dish out and soak up massive amounts of damage, so healing is going to be important - but very dangerous - and sneak attack may be risky to perform and isn't that lethal against a healthy giant.

yours,

nikoali.


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## AuraSeer

*Clerics*

You're right that clerical healing is risky. Since giants have reach, touching a comrade in melee will subject the cleric to attacks. (If the cleric starts out adjacent to his ally, he probably draws an AoO for casting. If he casts out of range and then moves in to touch, he is probably subject to a full attack next round.)

One way around this is to cast _Sanctuary_. Since giants have such low Will saves, there's a decent chance that they'll fail. That lets the cleric move through their threatened areas with impunity.

Another workaround, perhaps counterintuitively, is to concentrate on offense. If you can take the giants down quickly, they won't have time to do much damage, which means less healing will be required.

The offensive spells a cleric wants to use here are those that take advantage of the low Will saves. _Hold Monster_ is of course the best. In a pinch a _Command_ to "flee", or even a _Random Action_, could buy some time or split up a small group.


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## Pielorinho

*Re: Clerics*

"Command" is a great idea:  many commands (e.g., "Die!") deny an opponent their dex bonus, allowing rogues to sneak-attack.  A command to "Die!" can give the fighters the opportunity they need to approach the giant without incurring an AoO.  Mass-command, of course, is great against lots of giants.

Rogues will probably want to use missile weapons:  not only do their low hit points make melee with a giant very dangerous, but they also may have trouble reaching a giant's vitals when in hand-to-hand combat.  Improved invisibility is almost a must-have for a rogue fighting giants.

Consider having grenadelike weapons available, to help overcome a giant's tremendous natural armor bonus.

Druids, if they're lucky, will have a warp wood spell available.  Giants often fight with weapons with wooden hafts; destroying these weapons will definitely help.  A rusting grasp spell may also prove useful, since giants generally wield weapons too large for the party to use anyway.  But the touch range of rusting grasp makes it risky.  They should keep their animal companions out of combat, unless the companions are under the influence  of Animal Growth.  Druids have access to fire and cold spells, and should prepare them if fighting the appropriate kind of giant.

Finally, druids have some great movement-limiting spells, e.g., spike growth.  If you can get most of the party into the air and prepare the battlefield with these spells, you can make it much harder for the giants to bring their melee power into play.

Daniel


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## nikolai

*Re: Giants' Weapons*



			
				Pielorinho said:
			
		

> *Druids, if they're lucky, will have a warp wood spell available.  Giants often fight with weapons with wooden hafts; destroying these weapons will definitely help.*




If occurs to me that shatter could be used to destoy weapons in a similar manner. But it does have a 10 pounds/caster level limit. Does anyone know how much giants' weapons weight. All I'm looking for is a ballpark estimate.

nikolai.


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## Ridley's Cohort

I advise caution with Improved Invisibility.

Giants can do a lot of damage.  If too many PCs go invisible for a tough combat, those that remain visible draw more attacks each round.  That can result in sudden PC deaths.

Sometimes it is best to coax the opposition into spreading the love around.

I would encourage the Rogue to use Blink, Mirror Image, Blur, etc. to boost their defenses instead.

An alternative tactic is to team up with the Cleric.  Holy Smite or Order's Wrath (Reflex save or blind for 1 round), and Sound Burst (Will save or stunned for 1 round) will open up giants to sneak attacks.  These are AoE spells so if you can hit multiple giants one of them is bound to fail.


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## Wippit Guud

Whip out a couple of expanded glitterdust spells. Mass blind with their low will save, should be able to get 2 or 3 in a group. (or even 2 side by side with a standard one)


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## Victim

Ridley's Cohort said:
			
		

> *I advise caution with Improved Invisibility.
> 
> Giants can do a lot of damage.  If too many PCs go invisible for a tough combat, those that remain visible draw more attacks each round.  That can result in sudden PC deaths.
> 
> Sometimes it is best to coax the opposition into spreading the love around.
> 
> I would encourage the Rogue to use Blink, Mirror Image, Blur, etc. to boost their defenses instead.
> 
> An alternative tactic is to team up with the Cleric.  Holy Smite or Order's Wrath (Reflex save or blind for 1 round), and Sound Burst (Will save or stunned for 1 round) will open up giants to sneak attacks.  These are AoE spells so if you can hit multiple giants one of them is bound to fail. *




Or you make everyone Improved Invisible.


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## Sir Whiskers

For clerics:
*Combine Zone of Truth with Enthrall to gain information before starting a fight.
*Sanctuary at the start of the fight, then start casting Bless, Prayer, healing spells, other non-attack spells.
*Entropic Shield (personal only) for 20% miss chance with ranged attacks. Use Imbue with Spell Ability to allow other spellcasters to cast Entropic Shield on themselves.
*Command and Greater Command ('nuff said)
*Insect Plague, then have the arcane casters throw lightning, cold, and acid area effect spells in the same area.
*Blade Barrier to split up the opposition and cover the party's flanks. If you can arrange it, cast it at the only path available to the giants for getting out of your Insect Plague.
*Antilife Shell blocks most living creatures (including giants and their animal friends) in a 10' radius around the cleric, no save. As with Blade Barrier, can create a great bottleneck, if terrain permits. Or, if the party's in trouble, have the sor/wiz cast Rope Trick while within the area effect of the Antilife Shell. The party flees into the interdimensional space (cleric last) for healing and buffing, coming out when the giants have (hopefully) dropped their guard a bit. Don't forget to have the cleric pull the rope in after himself.


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## Hypersmurf

> *Antilife Shell blocks most living creatures (including giants and their animal friends) in a 10' radius around the cleric, no save.*




... and hope they don't have Huge longspears...

-Hyp.


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## shilsen

Looks like this masterclass has done its work. Any suggestions for the next monster type to consider? Beholders, demons, devils, mindflayers, vampires?


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## jontherev

*Re: Re: Re: Spell choice...*



			
				AuraSeer said:
			
		

> *
> That's not the point. Sure, if you catch 20 hill giants in the area of one Maximized Fireball you have potentially done 1200 total damage, and that sounds impressive. But not one of those giants will actually go down, and they'll remain at full combat effectiveness. If they're within charge range, you might not get a chance for another spell.
> 
> Frost and Fire giants are an exception, since their hp are effectively halved when dealing with their opposing element. That changes the whole tactical situation. *




Yes, but what about the rest of the party?  Right after the fireball comes a Cone of Cold, followed by 5 arrows from the arcane archer, followed by the rogue's sneak attack, followed by...you get the idea.  The point is, damage is good.  I do like the Wall of Force idea though.  I understand your point though.

A great tactic is to have a rogue super buffed with either a ring of blinking or someone cast it and/or improved invis. on him.  Then, he can go to town on the giants, who have to bypass the 50% miss chance AND a high AC.  This is pretty much my PC's schtick, and it's worked well so far, though I almost died once because the DM was rolling like a madman.  One time, someone cast hold monster on a giant, and I was primed and ready to make a full attack (had just drank a potion of invis.)...and changed my mind and made a successful coup de grace instead...very cool.


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## Pielorinho

Ridley's Cohort said:
			
		

> *I advise caution with Improved Invisibility.
> 
> Giants can do a lot of damage.  If too many PCs go invisible for a tough combat, those that remain visible draw more attacks each round.  That can result in sudden PC deaths.
> 
> Sometimes it is best to coax the opposition into spreading the love around.
> *




Sometimes, certainly.  But not if you're a rogue .

A rogue who suffers a full-attack action from a giant is likely to end up dead.   Unless the rogue has a spectacular AC or has extraordinary hit points, he's best off avoiding being attacked altogether.

The advantage of Improved Invisibility for a rogue is dual:  first, his delicate hit points are protected from most damage; and second, he is able to do much more damage, since he can sneak-attack with every hit.

If II on a rogue is a possibility, it's almost always a good idea vs. a giant.  Let the fighter do the hit-and-run dance against a giant (forcing it to move each round and give up its attack of opportunity):  the rogue needs to avoid being hit at all.

Of course, as I said above, a rogue with a humongous AC or HP may forgo this advice, and share in the giant's beating.

Daniel


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## Ridley's Cohort

Pielorinho said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Sometimes, certainly.  But not if you're a rogue .
> 
> A rogue who suffers a full-attack action from a giant is likely to end up dead.   Unless the rogue has a spectacular AC or has extraordinary hit points, he's best off avoiding being attacked altogether.*




Following your logic, the Wizard will go II, too.  He has even fewer HPs.  Only the Cleric and Fighter remain visible.

Now the Cleric complains he can't cast spells with giants standing on top of him.  He needs invisibility, too.

Only the Fighter remains available to be attacked.

All the giants in the room full attack the Fighter.  He doesn't even survive round 1.

You prevail in the fight, but the Fighter's player is so ticked at your PCs' general cowardice that you cough up money for a True Ressurect, putting you deep in the red for the adventure.


I agree with you that a Rogue needs to avoid the full melee attack.  But it may contribute more to the party if he hangs in back with a well-magicked bow and Protection from Arrows -- drawing boulders attacks away from the Fighter, then if he goes with II.  At least Blink will tempt giants to target him.


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## Lothar

The good thing about giants is their one-dimensionality.  They are just stregnth, reach, and hitpoints.  So if your tactics are sound, it becomes much less of a challenge.

The most important tactic is controlling the battlefield with your mage, as described by Ridley's Cohort above.

When it's time to engage in melee (hopefully one giant at a time), do not charge.  Wait for them.  Ready a 5 foot step and single attack for when they come withing 10 feet of you.  That will allow you to get first strike on them, negate their reach, and be the first with a full attack.

The cleric in the group needs to devote all of his energy to keeping the main fighter alive.  The best way to do that is to have a tower shield.  It will negate the giants reach, spellcasting attacks of opportunity, and provide a healthy AC bonus.  Don't wait for the fighter to be severely injured.  If he is at full health, ready a cure spell for when he gets hit.  That could stop a potentially deadly full attack by healing him in between attacks.

The utility fighters need to keep their low hitpoint butts out of melee.  They should be moving and single attacking each round.  Let the main fighters wear them down.  Don't be a liability.

Cheers


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## Pielorinho

Ridley's Cohort said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Following your logic, the Wizard will go II, too.  He has even fewer HPs.  Only the Cleric and Fighter remain visible.*




Maybe -- not necessarily.  The rogue, depending on his design, may need to get up close and personal with the giant, whereas the wizard can (and should) stay at a good distance.

And a rogue who gets a sneak-attack with every attack will do a buttload more damage per hit than otherwise -- a ninth-level rogue will do 17.5 points damage more per hit if he's sneak-attacking.

You seem to suggest that the rogue share the damage-sponge role in the party.  I simply think he'll be more effective dishing out extra damage and killing the giants faster.

But as you point out, under some circumstances this won't be the best idea.  It depends on party composition, character build, opponent numbers and abilities, and terrain.  

Mostly, though, I think a rogue fighting a giant is best off invisible.

Daniel


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## FreeTheSlaves

My experience when the 11th level party attacked the hill giant outpost is as follows.

Solid fog spell greatly immobilised them, forcing them to a crawl out of it in different directions as was convenient.
The hasted Paladin was visible and indeed was thus targetted almost exclusively. When he was made improved invisible he was criticalled and went down. Criticals hurt but that was a fluke.
The party out-missiled the giants badly.
The giants speed of 40 and light encumbrance ment that the heavily armoured could not run away.
On the second round of combat, a giant power attacked the lower AC monk.
Do not fight with a badly wounded ally up close as all giants can cleave.
The enchantress was twice as good as the evoker it seemed.
Giant senses are pretty good and they may notice those invisible by sight or sound. 
Dire bears are good hill giant pets with scent, improved grab and fearsome combat stats.
Giants large size and high strength make many combat options attractive. Trip in particular is a good option for the giants last full action attack v heavily armoured foes. It is a touch attack, so easily done and the giant has the better odds.
A group of giants may assign one of their members to ready boulders v spellcasters. Shield spell, bracers of AC and haste will guard against this.


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## Ridley's Cohort

Pielorinho said:
			
		

> *You seem to suggest that the rogue share the damage-sponge role in the party.  I simply think he'll be more effective dishing out extra damage and killing the giants faster.*




Well said.

I would say you are _probably_ correct.  But it _may_ be true that the Rogue (and the Wizard) absorbing 10-20 points of damage per round that would have fallen on the Fighter would help the party more than the 20-30 points more damage done with the sneak attack.

A giant with a hot dice can do amazing damage in a single round.  Spreading the hurt around is a hedge against a bad run of luck that might kill a PC.


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## Gaiden

This is completely unrelated to tactics against giants - I just thought it might be worth mentioning.



> A giant with a hot dice can do amazing damage in a single round. Spreading the hurt around is a hedge against a bad run of luck that might kill a PC.




I know that Giants are not very smart and in some circumstances they may want to spread the hurt around.  Especially if something they though was just a nuissance just became more than a thorn in their side (read as wimpy looking rogue sneak attacks).  However, in general the most efficient tactic which I can't help but think that even giants would follow would be to focus on one guy until he is down and then move to the next.  This of course assumes that doing so is the most tactically sound attack method - if the giant had whirlwind attack things might be different.

I just thought I would say this because sometimes I, as a DM, have been (as well as seen other DM's I play with) be "nice" and spread the hurt around so that no one character dies.  I don't like this because it takes away the realism of the game.  If the giant has been sitting there bashing on the fighter for a few rounds and the fighter looks to be on his last legs and then a new combatant moves into the fray, the giant I doubt would suddenly shift his attention to this new foe - all else being equal.  IMO, giants should fight just like everyone else - you eliminate threats as fast as possible.  The giant will take down that fighter and then move to the new target.  Extrapolating this to multiple foes around the giant - the giant takes one out a time - probably who ever looks like the biggest threat.  (This is the case where their lower intelligence would come into play - in general it makes more sense to take out the weakest foe first.)


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## Pielorinho

There will definitiely be circumstances in which you don't want a giant to be full-attacking one ally, no matter how HP-heavy that ally is.  As Gaiden points out, however, an intelligent enemy WILL focus on one opponent until that opponent drops.  Whether a 

I would suggest that a fighter in this situation go for hit-and-run tactics, fighting defensively, in order to deny the giant its full attack.  Reach makes this dangerous, since the fighter will suffer an AoO every time she runs -- but it's likely to be better than taking a full attack from the giant.

Again, this is something to judge from the circumstances.

Daniel


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## nikolai

Thanks very much to everyone who's posted. There have been some really good ideas - and I'm proud to say that, since the thread has started, I've participated in the successful _glitterdust_ing and pelting with arrows of an unsuspecting Hill Giant.

I'll post another Masterclass in the next couple of days, when I think the activity here will have more or less died down. I'll leave the topic as a surprise until then - but it will be very different from this one. 

As for the tactics of groups of giants, I think the default assumption should be that each giant would strike at the greatest threat to himself. The idea being that each wants to preserve his own life by taking out enemies striking at him in particular. You can then layer other levels of detail over this: such as a boulder throwers readying at spellcasters (if they're not in direct danger), giants leaving ineffectual opponents to charge PCs who are major threats and all out attacks on PCs who have taken down certain individuals etc. I think, in general, only the most elite groups of enemies should approach PC-like levels of coordinated attacks and selfless teamwork.

nikolai.


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## Pielorinho

nikolai said:
			
		

> *As for the tactics of groups of giants, I think the default assumption should be that each giant would strike at the greatest threat to himself. *




Another fun tactic for giants:  pick up that pesky fighter and throw him, like a boulder, at the pesky wizard.

Here's how I'd resolve it:  

To pick the fighter up, make a grapple check at -20.  You may need to try a couple of times, since the fighter's going to be stabbing at you while you try (i.e., making an AoO on you).  But once you've got him, you can throw him like a boulder, with a -2 penalty for his unusual shape (and the fact that he's struggling like a kitten as you hold him).  If he hits, both he and the wizard take normal boulder damage.

You may want to knock the sword from the fighter's hand before doing this; that way, he won't get to make an AoO on you.

Daniel


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## Ridley's Cohort

Gaiden said:
			
		

> *...However, in general the most efficient tactic which I can't help but think that even giants would follow would be to focus on one guy until he is down and then move to the next...
> 
> I just thought I would say this because sometimes I, as a DM, have been (as well as seen other DM's I play with) be "nice" and spread the hurt around so that no one character dies.  I don't like this because it takes away the realism of the game... *




I agree with nikolai, the best rule of thumb is to have the giant (or whatever opponent) attack what _he perceives_ as the greatest threat.

As for concentrating on one enemy until it goes down, that is an extremely unrealistic tactic that only works in D&D because peculiarities of the rules.  No savvy tactician would ever do that in real life -- it is a certain path to defeat.

I do agree that the bad guys aren't go to let up on a wounded PC merely because he is wounded.  That's where friends come in handy.  If the wounded PC fights defensively and steps back 5', he looks less dangerous.  If a friendly PC then steps up can do some damage, that fresh PC looks much more threatening.  Guess who will get targetted?

The downsides of being "clever" and having the NPCs concentrate on killing one PC at a time are:
(1a) It is unrealistic.
(1b) It only works because the DM is gaming the system.  
(2) It puts the DM in the position of having to decide which PC gets to die this adventure.  Won't that be fun?
(3) NPCs are, in fact, quite disposable.  PCs are not, even though losses are part of the game.  So *do not* treat NPCs as a player treats his PC.


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## Pielorinho

Ridley's Cohort said:
			
		

> *As for concentrating on one enemy until it goes down, that is an extremely unrealistic tactic that only works in D&D because peculiarities of the rules.  No savvy tactician would ever do that in real life -- it is a certain path to defeat.
> *




Although it's unrealistic, it's not hugely unrealistic (IMHO):  all it requires is a small shift in understanding, a belief that people fight more and more ferociously and desperately, as they become wounded, compensating for the problems the wounds cause.  I know it's not that way in our world, but it's not a totally incomprehensible idea, and it allows characters in the world to respond appropriately to what they observe.

I agree, though, that a stupid opponent will likely target the biggest immediate threat, and might change its target from round to round, not realizing that picking off a weaker opponent quickly might be the best strategy.

Daniel


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## Gaiden

> As for concentrating on one enemy until it goes down, that is an extremely unrealistic tactic that only works in D&D because peculiarities of the rules. No savvy tactician would ever do that in real life -- it is a certain path to defeat.




In all seriousness, is this true?

I want to use a bar fight as a test case:

So there is the equivalent of a grand melee going on in said bar and we are going to focus on 2 combatants - both are young adult males of equivalent build, neither of whom has any real skill in martial arts, boxing, wrestling, or any other form of unarmed combat.  Both are partially drunk (important because they will feel less pain).  So they are going at it, and one gets in a lucky shot - lucky in that it lands and actually does some real damage - let's say breaks a rib.  So we will say A has injured B.  Now B, being drunk gets even angrier (not being rational due to the alcohol and feeling reduced pain again because of the alcohol).  Let's say combatant C enters the fray - to help the injured B.  A now faces both B and C, with B badly injured (let's say he has a punctured lung as a result).  I realize that A may act very differently than what I am about to describe, but I am looking for the most rational tactics, not what is most realistic.  It seems to me that the most rational tactic would be to reduce the number of opponents as 2v1 is going to be more difficult than 1v1 (assume C has same combat expertise as A or B).  The reason why you reduce the number of combatants is that the more combatants there are the more "actions" they get to do in a given amount of time relative to you.  This is why when you see any sort of training exercises for any sort of military or police, that teamwork is so important.  One person is incredibly vulnerable.  But a team can function together to do multiple things at once.  

So back to the example - it seems the most rational course of action would be to drop B.  Then A can focus on C.

The problems with this example are as follows:

B, as he is injured, is funcitoning at reduced capacity and function, his punches are probably swinging slower, his flexibility is reduced because of the broken rib, etc.  Thus, A might want to focus on C as he is at 100%.  Howver, it B is still fighting, doesn't it make sense to get rid of him as quickly as possible.  The reason why he would not do this is that he opens himself to C.  However, if he focuses on C he does the same for B.

The problem with D&D seems more to be that the HP system doesn't take into account reduced funcitoning.  However, regardless, I would think one would still get rid of the weaker person first.



> I do agree that the bad guys aren't go to let up on a wounded PC merely because he is wounded. That's where friends come in handy. If the wounded PC fights defensively and steps back 5', he looks less dangerous. If a friendly PC then steps up can do some damage, that fresh PC looks much more threatening. Guess who will get targetted?




It too often seems that the guy who fights defensively - is still fighting.  I would presume that the giant would interpret defensive fighting as "good, I got him" rather than oh, let's focus on someone else.

Again, I am seriously wondering because I am planning a big fight involving a bunch of giants and want to make sure that I play them tactically sound for their intelligence.



> (2) It puts the DM in the position of having to decide which PC gets to die this adventure. Won't that be fun?




I agree that this is quite nasty.  As I said, I have been nice in the past - but really that doesn't make sense - at least with the system we use in 3E.  Also, you see the players focusing on one opponent until they go down or surrender.  It will make the players act more consciously of the fact that there PCs can die though and will make retreats occur (where as they probably would not occur at all before).  At least this is what I have experienced in my games - and anyone who knows my style either by having read the Undermountain thread in story hour, or by previous posts - knows that I pose tough challenges to my players.


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## Ridley's Cohort

Sorry for the digression folks, but I can't resist...



			
				Gaiden said:
			
		

> * The problem with D&D seems more to be that the HP system doesn't take into account reduced funcitoning.  However, regardless, I would think one would still get rid of the weaker person first.*




Bingo!

This is a "feature" of D&D.  As a game mechanic, it has both pluses and minuses.  As a simulation of combat, it is almost completely wrong.

In the real world, being seriously injured almost always reduces your effectiveness.  In fact, superficial wounds -- deep bruises, broken bones, dislocations -- are often debilitating even if not life threatening.  Injured muscles tire out very quickly.  Internal hemoraging is rather complicated, but suffix to say that if you are nearly passing out from blood loss, your stamina isn't going to be very good.

Secondly, facing is a very important issue.  D&D ignores it almost completely and throws in rather questionable threat zones and AoOs instead.  I think these were very good choices as game mechanics, but downright awful as a simulation of a combat.  Picking on a weakened foe will usually leave you open to devastating rear and flank attacks from an agile opponent.

Thirdly, we have suppression.  It is actually much easier to distract a target than hurt the target.  The best distraction is an attack.  If you stop attacking someone, they are much more likely to land a well aimed blow.

The bottom line is trying to knock weakened foes has big potential downsides in the real world.  Not that there aren't sometimes real good reasons to do so, but it is not the brilliant idea D&D mechanics might lead you to believe.


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## LuYangShih

Whether or not the D&D combat model is a successful simulation of fantasy combat is irrelevant.  Just tell me more about how to kill Giants.   


I agree that getting into melee combat with Giants is generally a bad idea, even in a Fighter heavy group.  Try to keep your distance as long as possible, and once they get close prepare for pain.  Summoning monsters is useful for expendable tanks that soak up damage while you fire arrows and spells, and as always are good for flnaking if and when the Giants do get close.  

Non buffed Clerics have a hard time with Giants since they are good at interrupting their spells and make it next to impossible to engage in melee combat with them.  A buffed Cleric is god, though.  Monks are absolutely BONED fighting Giants.  

About the only thing I can see Monks doing against Giants is becoming extremely defensive.  Full defense would be a must, and any other method of getting AC as high as possible.  Monks don't have the damage dealing or fighting abilities to do anything truly useful against Giants.  

Bards should actually do well, given their list of enchantment and illusion spells that really work well against Giants.  The Image spells would probably work decently well, as well as the other basic Charm and Hold spells.  Displacement would be a must, I think.  

A couple other great tactics against Giants would be to send your Ranger/Rogue types in with stealth mode. bows and boots of speed.  They could hit and run the Giants very well, and it would extremely difficult for the Giants to locate them. 

And of course, the classic cheese tactic of simply casting fly on all the spellslingers and archers,  and whittling them down from the relative safety of the skies.  Hurled boudlers are a lot less deadly than a Full Melee Attack from a Giant.


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## Gaiden

> Whether or not the D&D combat model is a successful simulation of fantasy combat is irrelevant. Just tell me more about how to kill Giants.




Haha


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## Ridley's Cohort

LuYangShih said:
			
		

> *Whether or not the D&D combat model is a successful simulation of fantasy combat is irrelevant.  Just tell me more about how to kill Giants.   *




Sure.

The monk's best bet seems to be spring attack and hope for a lucky stun.  You should have at least a DC of 19 -- not great but a giant might fail.  If you can boost your Wis and get some Ki straps +3, say, you could have a DC 24 on the stun attack.  A giant will fail that ~40%.  Unfortunately your odds of landing blows are not so hot.

OTOH, actually going toe-to-toe with a giant _while standing next to the party fighter_ is a reasonable tactic for a monk.  The fighter will be doing more damage so he will attract more of the attacks.  You can easily Tumble into a flanking position (if you dare risk being flanked yourself).  The monk really needs to flurry in order to land blows.

I think Druids could do reasonably well.  Animal Growth on summoned Dire Apes and a Dire Lion companion will tear a single weaker giant type to shreds.  There is something to be said for summoned disposable creatures when fighting giants.  (Keep in mind that giants usually can Cleave.)  The spike spells are good for controlling movement -- giants have enough HPs to cross them but it is intimidating to cross a barrier you might have to flee over.

The Lesser Planar Ally spell (4th level cleric) is quite good.  They cost a bit of money to summon, but they last pretty well against run-of-the-mill giants with their DR 10/+1.


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## nikolai

*New Masterclass*

With _Ridley's Cohort_'s discussion of monk tactics I don't think there's much more to add here. It's also been more than a week since this masterclass began, so the second Masterclass - on *Beholders* - has been posted.

Beholders are high level monsters which have a whole raft of interesting powers, many of which can be extremely lethal, this will be very interesting...

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40835

Hope to see you all there.

nikolai.


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