# [4CtF] Hero Points without the Hero class



## Krizzel (Jan 27, 2003)

I'm setting up a new game over on the 'IC' forum, and I could use some opinions.  

All the players in the game are going to be mutants.  I'm using d20 Modern for the base classes, and each player will start out as a d20 Modern class.  I was thinking about awarding them both a d20 Modern class-level and a level in Hero each time they leveled up, but then I thought why not just award them 8 Hero Points with each d20 Modern level.

That's really what I'd rather do, and I don't see that it would be unbalancing since all the PCs will get it.  Any mutant enemies would be built the same way as well.  I think I *would* have to adjust encounters to provide an adequate challenge if they're fighting 'normal' enemies, but I don't believe that would be too difficult.

Any thoughts?  I also wondered if it might be worthwhile to create mutant template to accomplish this same thing.


----------



## RangerWickett (Jan 27, 2003)

Don't give X hero points per level.  Remember that every 8 HrPs is worth about one level, so with your current system, they level up twice every time they level up.  If you want to double their advancement, I suppose you can go for it, but some characters might hit a block and not be able to think of any more useful powers.  I suppose they can always just default to things like flat bonuses to their ability scores, saves, or attack bonus, but if you're giving them HrPs to improve their  super powers, then you'd kinda be wasting them.

I don't see why using levels of Hero doesn't work, since it lets people advance their powers if they want, or just improve their skills, and everyone can still be equal, but if you really don't want to use the class, you could just give a flat number of Hero Points, maybe 8 or 16, and then whenever they would level up, half the time give them 8 HrPs, the other time give them a level.  

Since the options are balanced, though, it really doesn't make a difference either way.


----------



## Shalimar (Jan 27, 2003)

I am one of the players in Krizzel's game.  I was curious because I do not see the power that I am interested in, in 4 color to Fantasy.  How would one go about converting Kinetic Control from Marvel's old Super-hero RPG.  Here is the write-up of that power.

Kinetic Control: Increase or decrease kinetic energy. Ty intensity FEAT allows
		him to change the direction of any moving object or he can
		'push' a target with power rank strength. He can also control
		a targets telekinesis or kinetic bolts power with a FEAT vs.
		opponents power intensity.


The power was featurred in the X-men novel Smoke and Mirrors.  Slapshot used the power to redirect a few bullets a couple of feet, to stop himself from hitting the ground from a 4th floor window, to throw a quarter and speed it up to terminal velocity by continually changing the direction it was falling.  I believe he also added kinetic energy to his punches.  Anyone have any ideas of where to begin?


----------



## RangerWickett (Jan 27, 2003)

Shalimar said:
			
		

> *Kinetic Control: Increase or decrease kinetic energy. Ty intensity FEAT allows him to change the direction of any moving object or he can 'push' a target with power rank strength. He can also control a targets telekinesis or kinetic bolts power with a FEAT vs. opponents power intensity.
> 
> The power was featurred in the X-men novel Smoke and Mirrors.  Slapshot used the power to redirect a few bullets a couple of feet, to stop himself from hitting the ground from a 4th floor window, to throw a quarter and speed it up to terminal velocity by continually changing the direction it was falling.  I believe he also added kinetic energy to his punches.  Anyone have any ideas of where to begin? *




First of all, how powerful do you want this ability to be?  I mean, taken to the logical conclusion, a lot of super powers out there could be hideously powerful, probably beyond the level a game master could really handle.  With this power, I can see a lot of different possibilities for things you can do with it.  Since the powers in FCTF are effect-based, and not determined by the source of that power, you'd need a lot of small powers to represent that one ability.

First of all, you'd effectively have Telekinesis, which is fairly straightforward.  Maybe with a restriction that, at least until you get better control of your power, you can't make objects stay put in mid-air; they have to be moving (I think that'd warrant a 1 HrP cost reduction).  You'd also want to take the Telekinetic Shield ability, which would let you deflect attacks with your telekinesis.

Second, you'd have Impact Resistance, to represent you being able to keep yourself from getting hurt in a fall.  You could take a restriction that it only works when you're falling, and not when something rams you, or that it only works while you're conscious.

Third, you could probably use this ability to fly, though it'd be jerky flight at first, and you might get motion sick.

If you want to be able to, say, redirect a bullet's flight in mid-air and make it turn around and strike someone else, that'd probably be a fairly high-end super feat.  Call it "Redirect Missile," requiring telekinetic shield, exotic weapon proficiency (clairtangent weapon), and lightning reflexes.  You'd have to ready an action to use it, then make a ranged attack roll to have it hit where you want it to go.  You'd have a penalty to this attack roll for things like buckshot or cruise missiles, of course.


----------



## Shalimar (Jan 27, 2003)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> *
> First of all, how powerful do you want this ability to be?  I mean, taken to the logical conclusion, a lot of super powers out there could be hideously powerful, probably beyond the level a game master could really handle.  With this power, I can see a lot of different possibilities for things you can do with it.  Since the powers in FCTF are effect-based, and not determined by the source of that power, you'd need a lot of small powers to represent that one ability.
> 
> First of all, you'd effectively have Telekinesis, which is fairly straightforward.  Maybe with a restriction that, at least until you get better control of your power, you can't make objects stay put in mid-air; they have to be moving (I think that'd warrant a 1 HrP cost reduction).  You'd also want to take the Telekinetic Shield ability, which would let you deflect attacks with your telekinesis.
> ...




Good ideas, and thanks for the prompt response Ranger Wickett.  Maybe I can provide some more specific Info on this and we can get this ironed out.

The power cannot be used to affect anything that is not in motion, only those things already in motion can be affected at all, and the faster something is going, the harder it is to affect, also based on size.  I think that only affecting objects in motion would be qualify as a restriction.  Circumstance suppression?  Maybe enhancements to up the speed of what can be affected? ie. base cost x you can affect things traveling up to 25 mph, 2 ranks for every 20mph faster that can be affected?  Also have to buy size categories smaller then normal?  It should be harder to nudge  bullet then a buick.

Bullet redirection:  It wasn't used to turn the bullets around and redirect where they go, more like it was used to nudge them a little, trying to make them not hit, So I geuss a Deflection Bonus to Defense, but only while conscious.  Same thing for regular attacks, but purchased seperately?  Would there be a restriction for it only working on physical attacks and not energy or elemental attacks?

Impact Ressistance and falling:  Impact resistance makes sense in effect, although not in flavor.  He stopped himself from being damaged in the fall by draining away the kinetic energy his body was building up.  It would also work with the other damage types listed under the power.  The only part that doesn't really work is that it should be an activated power.

Flight wouldn't really enter into the power for a long time, there should probably be an enhancment to affect yourself in such a drastic manner.


----------



## RangerWickett (Jan 27, 2003)

First off, could you give me some specific ideas of what you'd like to do with the power?  I understand that you can't move objects that aren't already moving, but what could you do with objects that _are_ moving?  If someone is trying to jump across a pit, could you slow down their forward momentum in the middle of the jump so they fall?  Or if they weren't going to make it, could you make them move farther?

And by saying that you cannot move objects at rest, if you want to get technical you have to take into account the whole frame of reference deal.  If you're sitting in a moving car, could you help the car jump a gap in the road (since in relation to you, the car is immobile)?  What if you're standing still on the side of the road?


----------



## Shalimar (Jan 27, 2003)

You can speed up(add momentum), slow down(subtract momentum), or change the direction an object is moving in(change the direction of the momentum).  Only affecting objects in motion, regardless of their relative momentum to you.  From your example, yes you could affect the moving car, even if you are sitting in it causing it to be immobile in respect to you.

A specific example of adding momentum to an object:  Taking a quarter and throwing it(by hand) and then using your power to add to its forward momentum causing the impact to be stronger. Another example would be to add momentum to an ally's attack allowing it to do  more damage if it hits.

A specific example of subtracting from an objects momentum: Falling out of a window and using the power to lessen the momentum of the fall,as if you were falling from a lower height, lessening the impact or even cacelling out the impact damage entirely with enough power ranks.  Other examples, lessening the momentum of an incoming punch make lessening the impact, slowing down an out of control car by lessening its forward momentum.

A specific example of Changing the direction an object is moving:  a person leaps at you, you change the direction they are moving, from forward to sideways for example, or vertically, or even down at the ground.  The object still has the same momentum just in a new direction.



> If someone is trying to jump across a pit, could you slow down their forward momentum in the middle of the jump so they fall? Or if they weren't going to make it, could you make them move farther?




The answer to both questions would be yes.  You could increase someones forward momentum to allow them to clear a jump, or you could lessen it, insuring that they don't.  Or you could simply make their forward momentum downward momentum.


----------



## KitanaVorr (Jan 28, 2003)

Back to Krizzel's idea of hero points instead of the hero class.  I like having the characters advance in their own personal D20 Modern class.

If you controlled the number of hero points you give them, that will prevent them from getting too powerful too fast.  For example, giving them a large one int the beginning and then giving them a much smaller number of hero points per level after that or have their hero points correspond to skill points...points can either go to skill or hero points with the max number you can put in hero points?

The reason really I don't like using the hero class is because you can't advance in the regular D20 classes if you want the power and I don't think that a character loses herself on the way to becoming a hero....it ends up most people are more heros and less interesting because of that.

Though I do see the problems inherent in the excess accumulation of hero points.

So in my Wuxia game I did away with hero points/hero class and just converted them to feats and letting them be a feat they can choose instead of regular feats.  I need to keep streamlining the feats to make sure they aren't over done, but I like that idea better.


----------



## KitanaVorr (Jan 28, 2003)




----------



## RangerWickett (Jan 28, 2003)

Well, the one to increase damage of weapons (both for yourself and for others) is something I hadn't thought about.  And I've got too much Japanese homework to be able to come up with the rules right now.

For the others, though, I think you could pretty much do everything else with telekinesis.  Just put the majority of your HrPs into Telekinesis, maybe take Gain Feat to get Telekinetic Deflection, plus maybe Super Speed, and Heightened Defense to provide a Deflection bonus to AC.

To Kitana, my only real worry is that you could reach the point where you keep giving out HrPs, and maybe one PC wouldn't want any more powers.  As for people taking Hero instead of a normal class, it's all a play-style choice.  I prefer classes (easier to do power balancing), but some people would rather just have people start off with X HrPs, and then not have powers advance at all, or only advance slowly.  It's up to the GM to determine how people are able to advance.


----------



## Verequus (Feb 1, 2003)

Luckily some posts have inspired me to a solution: Calculate for every standard class level feature (save boni, attack bonus, caster level, bonus feats, special abilities, ...) the hero point equivalent, then give out only 8 hero points per level. Then the players can buy a normal level, a whole hero level or something between. This generic approach, which kills the distinction between classes, can be restricted, by some features for a class must be selected (a wizard has to get a higher caster level, for example). If this approach should not function for every standard class then it could be because they are not rightly balanced. This should be no issue with the revised edition. This method seems also to be great way to balance out prestige classes.


----------



## Malacoda (Feb 2, 2003)

RuleMaster said:
			
		

> *Luckily some posts have inspired me to a solution: Calculate for every standard class level feature (save boni, attack bonus, caster level, bonus feats, special abilities, ...) the hero point equivalent, then give out only 8 hero points per level. Then the players can buy a normal level, a whole hero level or something between.  *




If you are going to be doing this for d20 Modern, you might want to take a look at The Custom Hero, which already deconstructs the classes into a point-based system, including over 120 new feats. The character points of The Custom Hero and the Hero Points of 4CtF are not quite the same (Custom Hero gives out 26 per level), but the two systems should mesh fairly well, something like 3 character points for 1 Hero Point (or some other workable ratio). Just remove saves, skills and feats from the stuff you can buy with Hero Points, since The Custom Hero already covers that.

The Custom Hero can be found at...

http://myweb.cableone.net/tyranthraxus/TBLIV/


----------

