# BattleMaps and D&D Insider



## Nebulous (May 23, 2008)

So, i've bought KotS and really like it, and this morning i got the itch to make some maps for it.  The middle sections, where we just have the blueprint.  So, using trusty old photoshop and a scanner, i've been converting them into tiles, about 6 per map.   They come out looking something like this:








But here's my question:  this is time consuming, and it takes a little know-how and the right tools to do it.  I would LOVE if Wizards made these tiles available for download on their site.  It seems like the perfect thing to bundle with D&D Insider.  Does anyone know if they plan to do this?  Having hi-res printable maps would be a great addition to their service.


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## Heselbine (May 23, 2008)

It would be great, wouldn't it? Maybe this would be content available to subscribers rather than just the free access?


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## Nebulous (May 23, 2008)

Heselbine said:
			
		

> It would be great, wouldn't it? Maybe this would be content available to subscribers rather than just the free access?




Yes, i agree that it should be subscribed content only, not free.  Realistically, every single map in Dungeon magazine could be downloadable and printable, as a supplement to the shiny big sheets.  Maybe there's a hidden reason why they don't or can't make this option available?


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## Ashrem Bayle (May 23, 2008)

Nebulous said:
			
		

> Yes, i agree that it should be subscribed content only, not free.  Realistically, every single map in Dungeon magazine could be downloadable and printable, as a supplement to the shiny big sheets.  Maybe there's a hidden reason why they don't or can't make this option available?



They hate us?



Seriously, I'd LOVE if WOTC would post full scale maps (or tiles) on the site. It's one way to be sure they get my money.


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## Nebulous (May 23, 2008)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> They hate us?
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously, I'd LOVE if WOTC would post full scale maps (or tiles) on the site. It's one way to be sure they get my money.




Nah, they don't hate us. We're the ones that pay for all their Lamborghini's!


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## Ashrem Bayle (May 23, 2008)

I've been working on my own re-mapping this last week. I don't do tiles. I have a projector setup that I'll be using this for.

What do you think? This is an unfinished bit of Area 5.


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## Nebulous (May 23, 2008)

Yeah, looks good.  What do you use to do it?


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## Ashrem Bayle (May 23, 2008)

Nebulous said:
			
		

> Yeah, looks good.  What do you use to do it?




100% Photoshop


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## Nebulous (May 23, 2008)

A projector setup is certainly ideal, but cost prohibitive to most people. Maybe one of these days i'll do that.  It makes it a snap to "blackout" areas you don't want the PC's to see.


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## Nebulous (May 23, 2008)

Just curious, Ashrem:  How much time are you investing in the maps? Scanning one, manipulating the original to erase marks, resizing and printing takes me about an hour per encounter map.  Maybe a little less.


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## Ashrem Bayle (May 23, 2008)

Nebulous said:
			
		

> Just curious, Ashrem:  How much time are you investing in the maps? Scanning one, manipulating the original to erase marks, resizing and printing takes me about an hour per encounter map.  Maybe a little less.




Hard to say. I just started this so I'm learning as I go. So far I'm about half way through with the top portion of the Keep. That's taken about four hours or so.

That said, I'm going to use the provided printed maps where I can. I'm only going to do the Keep because they didn't provide anything but what was in the book itself.

It was either this, or use tiles. And it occured to me that I had the means to make my own "tiles" and project them, so that's the way I'm going.


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## Haffrung Helleyes (May 23, 2008)

I would definitely become a D&D insider subscriber if I could download full battlemaps for all of the WoTC adventures.  That's the sort of thing that would be very valuable to me.

In my mind this is a good area for WoTC to go into to make money.  As a DM, I am all about anything that helps my players better visualize their environment.  Scale battlemats are the way to go, I think, assuming that they are truly custom (IE assuming that all WoTC dungeons dont start looking like they're made from 4x6 tiles).

Ken


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## Kristian Serrano (May 23, 2008)

From what I understand, all maps used in a module will be available in the D&DI Virtual Game Table without having to scan and upload them. This would also work for projector set ups.


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## Filcher (May 23, 2008)

Markers and battlemaps are still the cost effective route.


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## Micco (May 23, 2008)

> What do you think? This is an unfinished bit of Area 5.




Very nice, Ashrem! We use a projector setup with Map Tools and find it a huge help. I don't have photoshop, so I was planning on scanning each map. But your approach looks much better


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## Ashrem Bayle (May 23, 2008)

Micco said:
			
		

> Very nice, Ashrem! We use a projector setup with Map Tools and find it a huge help. I don't have photoshop, so I was planning on scanning each map. But your approach looks much better



That was my original plan, but I couldn't get a good scan of the Keep. It's a LOT of work, but I think my approach is going to be worth it.

And it's moving along faster as I get more done. I get more and more shapes to work with that I can just copy and paste.

Unfinished Area 2 attached.


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## Brown Jenkin (May 23, 2008)

I seem to recall WotC saying that they are not providing the ability for the mapping software they are creating to be able to print hi-res because they want people to buy their Dungeon Tiles. I suspect that they won't make any other hi-res maps available in DDI for the same reason.


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## Ashrem Bayle (May 23, 2008)

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> I seem to recall WotC saying that they are not providing the ability for the mapping software they are creating to be able to print hi-res because they want people to buy their Dungeon Tiles. I suspect that they won't make any other hi-res maps available in DDI for the same reason.




I suspect that's true. Shame.


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## Haffrung Helleyes (May 24, 2008)

I think dungeon tiles are a terrible substitute for a battlemap enlarged and printed out for a one shot.

With the tiles, you're very limited in what you can portray.  They're a step back from something like Tac-Tiles, which I currently use.  I'm only interested in buying things that are better than what I already have.

Ken


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## Nebulous (May 24, 2008)

*****SPOILERS!!!!!!**********8


If you're going to play in Keep on the Shadowfell, you probably shouldn't look further.  Not a major spoiler though.




So, i've been working very hard on these maps, and i've decided to map out ahead of time the entire first level of the Keep.

Damn, this has turned into a hell of a project, and i don't know if it's worth the effort.  HOWEVER, i do think it looks very good. I think the players will appreciate it quite a bit, and it does look better than random tiles stuck together.

See, what bothers me is that the campaign comes with beautifully drawn maps of the keep, but they are all but useless in print scale unless you do what i've done here, or recreate them like some others have done.  I elected to go the scan/print/cut route because that's the most viable option for me.

I spent all morning arranging this, and here are the first 3 encounters:












What do you think?  It looks better in the finished state than the tile i posted earlier. I didn't intend for the excavation site to be a different color, i added too much contrast by accident, but it hardly ruins it. There's a seam you can see that i'll probably color over with crayon or marker, but it's not bad. I should have enough space in my game room to arrange the entire floor plan, but i have to admit this is HIGHLY time consuming, and if i wasn't such a dork i wouldn't bother.

Again, which was the point of this thread, having actual hi-res tiles pre-sized for print would save dozens and dozens of hours of time.  At least these maps are reusable, so it's not exactly a one-shot deal.


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## Xorn (May 24, 2008)

A fellow Descent fan?  Those doors look familiar.  

I have thought about drawing the map in Campaign Cartographer 3/Dungeon Designer 3--best part about using CC3/DD3 is it has a built-in tile-printing setup that frankly rocks my socks.  But I could actually take my current scans (50 px/sq & 50 dpi) and drop them into CC3/DD3, blow them up 400% (as it uses 200 dpi default) then use the tile printing functions still.

If you know the encounter area will fit on 2x2 sheets (16x20), then you specify 2x2 landscape or portrait, pick the spot to center it on, and hit print.  Boom, perfectly tiled prints.  

(Kind of a plug for CC3/DD3, sorry.)  If there's a way I can post my 50 dpi scans of both maps without getting in trouble, let me know, I'll be happy to "un-yoink" the link below:

http://www.eugee.net/downloads/yoinked.shadowfell.keep.maps.zip


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## Nebulous (May 24, 2008)

Xorn said:
			
		

> A fellow Descent fan?  Those doors look familiar.
> 
> I have thought about drawing the map in Campaign Cartographer 3/Dungeon Designer 3--best part about using CC3/DD3 is it has a built-in tile-printing setup that frankly rocks my socks.  But I could actually take my current scans (50 px/sq & 50 dpi) and drop them into CC3/DD3, blow them up 400% (as it uses 200 dpi default) then use the tile printing functions still.
> 
> ...




Yeah, they're Descent doors.  In fact, i'll have to plug Descent while you plug CC3.  Descent is a good game in and of itself, but as far as stealing stuff for 4e D&D: my god, between the tiles, monsters, and the tokens for Bloodied, poisoned, dazed, etc., there's hardly a piece of that boardgame that's not usable. 

Anyway, on track, i don't have CC3 or DD3 so i imagine the start up is a little steep to get those, although someone has been telling me i should do it.  

How much time is it taking you, start to finish, to build one encounter?  I'm guessing from the time i scan an image, to the time i lay down the last piece of tape, it's an hour per encounter. Maybe an hour and a half.  That's a long time i think.  Does CC3 make this any faster?  You still have to import the image, but it sounds like it makes breaking them up into pieces much easier.  It's tough breaking the maps down into inch squares in Photoshop.


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## Klaus (May 24, 2008)

Nebulous said:
			
		

> *****SPOILERS!!!!!!**********8
> 
> 
> If you're going to play in Keep on the Shadowfell, you probably shouldn't look further.  Not a major spoiler though.
> ...



 That looks nothing short of amazing! Well done!


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## Xorn (May 26, 2008)

Nebulous said:
			
		

> Yeah, they're Descent doors.  In fact, i'll have to plug Descent while you plug CC3.  Descent is a good game in and of itself, but as far as stealing stuff for 4e D&D: my god, between the tiles, monsters, and the tokens for Bloodied, poisoned, dazed, etc., there's hardly a piece of that boardgame that's not usable.
> 
> Anyway, on track, i don't have CC3 or DD3 so i imagine the start up is a little steep to get those, although someone has been telling me i should do it.
> 
> How much time is it taking you, start to finish, to build one encounter?  I'm guessing from the time i scan an image, to the time i lay down the last piece of tape, it's an hour per encounter. Maybe an hour and a half.  That's a long time i think.  Does CC3 make this any faster?  You still have to import the image, but it sounds like it makes breaking them up into pieces much easier.  It's tough breaking the maps down into inch squares in Photoshop.




I tried it out.

Set the book on the scanner, hit preview scan, then crop the selection to just the map area.  Scan at 300 dpi (which is a little bigger than 50 pixels/square).  Zoom in and check the level of the grid and use a "free rotate" of 0.2-0.5 degrees to get it straight.  Takes usually 2 tries to get it.  While still zoomed in, check the width of a square in pixels, and percentage resize the image so the squares are 50 pixels each.  Save map.  It's now ready for VTT use.

5 minutes has passed.

Open up CC3 and make a new, blank, non-bordered map.  Add my 50 px/sq map as a background symbol, blowing it up 400% (200 pixel squares now).  Center my view on the area I want to print and set it to tile whatever dimensions I think I'll need (2x3 Portrait for Area 1, for example) and hit Preview.  If it looks right, hit Print.

10 minutes have passed, after printing, at this point.

I've got a straight edge papercutter, so trimming the image is actually pretty fast.  Drop some strips of tape down and I've got the whole map down on the floor, then take scissors and cut the excess away (so I just have the corridors and rooms left) then cut those apart in the chunks I want to reveal them.  Map finished!

Took 30 minutes total, but the straight edge paper cutter is a nice tool, and I have a really nice office jet printer/fax/scanner that kicks out the pages pretty quickly.


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## ArchAnjel (May 26, 2008)

Filcher said:
			
		

> Markers and battlemaps are still the cost effective route.



Or you could use MapTool for free and create maps that are nicer than a battlemat and faster, too.  That makes it pretty cost effective.


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## incantator (May 26, 2008)

I still have not figured out how to print with MapTool, though (unless you do a screenshot and then import it into another program for scale manipulation).


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## MMKyt (May 26, 2008)

Xorn said:
			
		

> (Kind of a plug for CC3/DD3, sorry.)  If there's a way I can post my 50 dpi scans of both maps without getting in trouble, let me know, I'll be happy to "un-yoink" the link below:
> 
> http://www.eugee.net/downloads/yoinked.shadowfell.keep.maps.zip



Page Not Found  Can you upload somewhere else


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## Graf (May 26, 2008)

Totally awesome. I was despairing (sp!) over what to do for my online game.


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## Xorn (May 26, 2008)

Graf said:
			
		

> Totally awesome. I was despairing (sp!) over what to do for my online game.




For online play, I recommend:

Fantasy Grounds II
Battlegrounds RPG
MapTool

In that order.  All are good, I just happen to think FG2 is the best is all.
http://www.eugee.net/03_08_2008.htm

And I know my link to the maps isn't working.  I'm not comfortable posting a full scan of a copyrighted map that WotC has not released to the public.  So I "yoinked." the link.  If a disclaimer of, "You must own KotS in order to download these images" would suffice, I'll put the maps back, otherwise they'll stay like they are.


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## Aria Silverhands (May 26, 2008)

I like MapTool far better than FG2.  I hate the chat window in FG2, it requires a high level of xml knowledge to customize.  Not to mention you can create maps entirely within MapTool using a texture resource library.


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## Xorn (May 26, 2008)

To each their own.  FG2 feels closer to a tabletop setting than MapTool, to me.  Plus the dice rolling and hotkeys for dice rolls are great, coupled with the encounter/DM tools.

http://www.eugee.net/fg21.htm

I don't know the first thing about XML, by the way.


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## Aria Silverhands (May 26, 2008)

I think Trevor is looking to add skins to MapTool which could let you mimic the feel of FG2 for the most part.  There's a huge macro window which lets you create all kinds of text, die roll, and more for macros.  The only thing missing is the actual roll of the dice you pick up.


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## Nebulous (May 27, 2008)

Well, i've finished printing out the first 11 encounters.  I've only got up to 5 assembled, but i'll try to work on that tonight.  When all together, this is going to easily be the biggest map i've ever put together.  I'll post some more pictures when i get it done.


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## Bayuer (May 27, 2008)

Nebulous said:
			
		

> *****SPOILERS!!!!!!**********8
> 
> 
> If you're going to play in Keep on the Shadowfell, you probably shouldn't look further.  Not a major spoiler though.
> ...




Could you please put those maps to download somewhere? you will make my life so simpler


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## Nebulous (May 27, 2008)

Bayuer said:
			
		

> Could you please put those maps to download somewhere? you will make my life so simpler




Well, this is the same problem Xorn was having, we don't know about the legality of making these things available for download.


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## Stoat (May 27, 2008)

Excellent work, Nebulous.  When are y'all playing?  

IMO, WotC is missing out on a tremendous opportunity if they don't make their adventures compatible with their own VTT.  It seems to me that the best way to promote the service is to make it easy and familiar to use, and the best way to do that is to provide whole adventures online.  I've been playing with various VTT's for about two years now, and I've got two beefs with 'em.  (1)  They have a steep learning curve.  I gave up on Fantasy Grounds because I was having too much trouble figuring it out.  (2)  They take a lot of additional work.  At a minimum, you need a digital version of the map and digital versions of the NPC's/PC's.  Doing those right takes a fair amount of time.

Providing maps, digital minis, etc. for published adventures eliminates problem 2, and will get my money.


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## Xorn (May 27, 2008)

I love Fantasy Grounds, so don't take this as me being disagreeable--but I find I have a lot _less_ prep work over FG2 than playing IRL.  To make my encounter map for FG2, I just scan the encounter in the book, size it to 50 pixels/square, and save it.

If I want it for IRL use, then I have to tile-print it, and spent some arts and crafts time cutting and taping stuff, not to mention watch the ink-levels on my printer go down.  (I have a really nice printer though, so this isn't that bad.)

Note that I'm not accounting for the fact that I have a OCR'd PDF of Keep on the Shadowfell that I made myself, so I can literally cut-n-paste the whole adventure into FG2.  

*Do not ask for a copy of my PDF here or in PMs.  I made it for my own personal use.*


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## Nebulous (May 27, 2008)

Stoat said:
			
		

> Excellent work, Nebulous.  When are y'all playing?
> 
> IMO, WotC is missing out on a tremendous opportunity if they don't make their adventures compatible with their own VTT.  It seems to me that the best way to promote the service is to make it easy and familiar to use, and the best way to do that is to provide whole adventures online.  I've been playing with various VTT's for about two years now, and I've got two beefs with 'em.  (1)  They have a steep learning curve.  I gave up on Fantasy Grounds because I was having too much trouble figuring it out.  (2)  They take a lot of additional work.  At a minimum, you need a digital version of the map and digital versions of the NPC's/PC's.  Doing those right takes a fair amount of time.
> 
> Providing maps, digital minis, etc. for published adventures eliminates problem 2, and will get my money.





Thanks Stoat! We're looking to play on occasional Friday nights, for now anyway.  It is possible that 4e will kill all desire to play SW, we'll just have to wait and see what happens. 

I completely agree about the VTT, and their potential adventure support for it. Providing full maps and minis for online would be a definite incentive.


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## Bayuer (May 28, 2008)

@Nebulous
Well, could you send it on e-mail to me or sth? If not i can understand that. I will have to turn my scaner on and pray to God that I can do sth with this...


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## Nebulous (May 28, 2008)

Well, here is the full map for level 1 of Keep on the Shadowfell.  I think it turned out really good, and i'm glad i spent the time.  I got faster at doing it and it didn't take as long as when i started.  In fact, i might do Level 2 as well.  Players can only see the general layout, no encounter specifics, but still...



***SPOILERS****



















The maps are printed on heavy white cardstock, so they're pretty durable, as far as paper goes.  If i were to run this in smaller chunks, per encounter room, i would slide it under the plexiglass on my game table.  

I still haven't decided yet if we're going to game on the floor around the keep itself, leaving it intact as you see it, or break it up into chunks and move it back to the game table.


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## Silverblade The Ench (May 28, 2008)

By the way, do folk know you can make nice maps with 3d software? 

http://www.silverblades-suitcase.com/erynavar/images/fortress1.jpg
http://www.silverblades-suitcase.com/erynavar/images/fortress2.gif
http://www.silverblades-suitcase.com/erynavar/images/fortress6.jpg

just a thought for "arty" folk


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## brad-pet (May 28, 2008)

Nebulous said:
			
		

>




This is amazing	!  
I'm sad that we can't share these maps ...
It would have done my life simpler ... 
I don't understand why WoC don't propose these maps for download on their site. We need them to run KotS.


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## Nebulous (May 28, 2008)

Who knows, maybe they are planning to release them once the DDI becomes available, i just don't know.  You would think they'd mention it by now though.  By letting them know this is something we're interested in, it might happen, even if it's for modules down the road.  Cobbling together random Dungeon tiles just isn't the same thing, especially considering how many packs you would have to buy to complete this map.


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## Wuffr (Jun 2, 2008)

Great work Nebulous   

Was really thinking about going with Insider. Great help for me as a new  DM (Going through my first campaign in 3.5 - Red Hand of Doom). And I thought it would have printable maps. Without maps, I dont really know.

Think Ill give one of the maptools a go.


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## functionciccio (Jun 2, 2008)

Nebulous said:
			
		

> Well, here is the full map for level 1 of Keep on the Shadowfell.




What you did is simply AMAZING.
I'm speechless...


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## phloog (Jun 2, 2008)

Nebulous said:
			
		

> Who knows, maybe they are planning to release them once the DDI becomes available, i just don't know.  You would think they'd mention it by now though.  By letting them know this is something we're interested in, it might happen, even if it's for modules down the road.  Cobbling together random Dungeon tiles just isn't the same thing, especially considering how many packs you would have to buy to complete this map.




Maybe WOTC is hoping that fans will do all this work (as seen here)...because then you can upload it to their site for them, and they'll own your work 100%!

Seriously, this is some awesome mapping you've done here, but I do wonder how much WOTC is relying upon their rather interesting 'you make it, we own it' philosophy to provide content.


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## tintagel (Jun 30, 2008)

Fantasygrounds it pretty good, but I'm a bit more inclined to the functionality of d20pro. (http://www.d20pro.com).  It has the basic tools, like fog of war, login via IP address, chat tools, and map imports, but it also tracks initiative, hit points, lets you put in attacks and even at will / per init (encounter) / per day and charged abilities (4th Ed, anyone?).  It also tracks effects, like bonuses to hit, AC, temporary hit points, etc.

It's designed for 3.5, but it's easy to move it to 4th.  They offer a fully functional 14 day trial too.  Here is a screenshot of a 4th Edition game I ran at Origins just last week, just to give you an idea of what it looks like.  (It was a conversion of the ToEE moathouse)


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## Matrix Sorcica (Jul 1, 2008)

Wuffr said:


> Great help for me as a new  DM (Going through my first campaign in 3.5 - Red Hand of Doom). And I thought it would have printable maps. Without maps, I dont really know.



Have you seem the thread with resources for RHoD on the WotC forums? There's tons of maps and other great stuff.


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## tintagel (Jul 5, 2008)

Well, I bought H1, and I had to make some scans in order to get the maps into d20pro.  I have all of the maps done so far except for the 2nd level, and that should be done this weekend.

I posted them on my Mad Mapper site, if anyone wants them.  I've stitched together the poster maps and re-created the whole Level 1 map from various scans in the book.  I also Photoshopped the notes and keys out of the maps (like miniature placement and such) so the player's wouldn't be tipped off.

Hopefully, some of you other Virtual Tabletop users will find some use for these.  They might be high enough resolution to print too.  Click the thumbnail for the link.


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## tintagel (Jul 6, 2008)

Shadowfell Keep Level 2 is done, and that's the last one.  The poster maps are at 100 dpi and the dungeons at 50 dpi.  ENJOY!





WoTC... get on the ball so your fans don't have to do this...


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## MadDrMark (Jul 9, 2008)

I just got a copy of Dundjinni, and my first project was to make battlemaps for the Keep on the Shadowfell.  I have encounter areas 1-8 finished already.  Each map takes about 20 minutes, tops.  I'm still learning the software, though, and I took a few shortcuts as I have yet to download the bazillion or so fan-produced textures out there.

Here is a section of area 4 to demonstrate:





If Wizards gives the OK to distribute such fan material, I will make them generally available.  Otherwise, contact me through my website for a look.


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## Ashrem Bayle (Jul 9, 2008)

Here's my completed map set:

Quarter scale sample images of both floors can be found below. Click the links at the bottom for the full 1" scale image files.




http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=bjv9h3dwm2t&thumb=4




http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=qttdbxw0mfn&thumb=4


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## nerf_ninja (Aug 23, 2008)

*Anyone make any Thunderspire battle maps?*

The KOTS ones were so awesome that we'll have a hard time regressing to the battlemap....

Does anyone know where to find maps of the H2 areas? I haven't uncovered any yet. 

In the spirit of helping: there's a shareware app called Split and Tile that can split these large images up very well for printing. 

http://www.softdd.com/splitting-images/splitting-pictures.html

-NN


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