# Is the Tratnyr underpowered?



## cmbarona (Jan 30, 2009)

I'm having wavering thoughts about this weapon. It seems to be missing a certain something, and I'm not sure what. Is it that its range is the same as a javelin? That it seems to be a normal spear with throwing attached? That it's identical to the trident, but with a longer range? I haven't quite figured this out yet. Is it just my imagination, and it really works quite well?


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## chitzk0i (Jan 30, 2009)

Aside from someone with Eladrin Soldier, who would pay a feat to just use the tratnyr?  Spending a feat just to slightly improve your backup weapon is not a worthwhile move in most campaigns.  And if it was, I'd probably just use a Farslayer weapon or maybe a Grasping javelin.  A ranger that uses heavy thrown weapons might use it, but they're really better off with a bow.


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## Eldorian (Jan 30, 2009)

It's a niche weapon until there is a class with str powers that use thrown weapons.  It is the weapon of choice for a single ranger paragon path, Avalanche Hurler.

edit:  And even then, I'd consider spending the feats to grab bastard sword and heavy blade opportunity, and only use one Tratnyr.  Ranged powers, even the Avalanche Hurler ranged aspects of the powers, don't require the second attack be with an offhand weapon.


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## HeirToPendragon (Jan 30, 2009)

Eldorian said:


> It's a niche weapon until there is a class with str powers that use thrown weapons.  It is the weapon of choice for a single ranger paragon path, Avalanche Hurler.





I'm so building this character. That Paragon just looks fun.


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## Eldorian (Jan 30, 2009)

HeirToPendragon said:


> I'm so building this character. That Paragon just looks fun.




Looks fun, versatile in combat, and mechanically effective too, it looks like.

Edit:  Also a good paragon path for a brutal rogue, (my personal favorite multiclass paragon path for brutal rogue is shock trooper tho).  The rogue is gonna want to throw daggers  obviously.


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## Rechan (Jan 30, 2009)

I imagine it might be useful for the scant few Warlord powers that require a thrown weapon.


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (Jan 30, 2009)

Rechan said:


> I imagine it might be useful for the scant few Warlord powers that require a thrown weapon.




I was thinking that too.


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## cmbarona (Jan 30, 2009)

So the general consensus is that yes, it is underpowered. Maybe grossly underpowered.

So what might be a good fix? +3 proficiency? d10 damage die? Military instead of Superior weapon?


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## HeirToPendragon (Jan 30, 2009)

cmbarona said:


> So the general consensus is that yes, it is underpowered. Maybe grossly underpowered.
> 
> So what might be a good fix? +3 proficiency? d10 damage die? Military instead of Superior weapon?




Currently it's a placeholder and I'm sure later on we'll see a class that just completely abuses it.

If you think it's underpowered, just use a different weapon for now.


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## Simm (Jan 30, 2009)

HeirToPendragon said:


> If you think it's underpowered, just use a different weapon for now.



The problem with that is that there isn't a better 1 handed spear. There are only 3 and it's the best one.


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## HeirToPendragon (Jan 30, 2009)

Simm said:


> The problem with that is that there isn't a better 1 handed spear. There are only 3 and it's the best one.




...Well then what is the problem?


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## Alabast (Jan 30, 2009)

It's an exotic weapon because it adds versatility rather than power.  But there aren't any classes, except (marginally) an warlord, strength-build cleric, or beastmaster ranger, that can make much use if its versatility.


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## HeirToPendragon (Jan 30, 2009)

If three options can use it to an effect (even marginally) and it's the best of it's kind then I say having it as a Superior weapon is correct.


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## infocynic (Jan 30, 2009)

I have a hard time seeing any of Alabast's alleged uses.  Not that they're not potentially there, but it's a long shot (no pun intended). BM Ranger might as well use a longbow if he wants to play at range. 

I mean, don't get me wrong, it's better than a Javelin, sure, but realistically, who's going to use this as their primary weapon, and who's going to waste a feat on it for a secondary weapon? My Lvl 5 TWRanger carries a +1 magic javelin just in case ranged is really the best option. Long-term I might get that upgraded to a +2 dynamic weapon in case a trident will do (e.g., enemy has seriously nasty immediate reaction to melee attacks). But wasting a feat to pick up tratnyr? No thanks.


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## cmbarona (Jan 30, 2009)

HeirToPendragon said:


> ...Well then what is the problem?




The problem isn't that it's the best one-handed spear, but that its position as the best one-handed spear doesn't quite live up to the standards of other superior weapons. Honestly, I think it's _just_ shy of having an appropriate power level, I'm just having a hard time putting my finger on where exactly that lack/fix lies.


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## abyssaldeath (Jan 30, 2009)

I think it should have a +3 proficiency. Thrown weapons are only really good for basic attacks. A Ranger can only use a Thrown weapon effectively at either ranged or melee, but not both. Rangers get some very nice bonus to powers for having a decent wisdom and they need Con if they are going to be in melee a lot.  So if a Ranger focuses on having a good Str and Dex one of those two stats are going to suffer. For all these reasons I just don't see the increased range over a trident being enough to justify it being superior.


Note: I used a Ranger as an example because I think they would benefit the most this weapon. I haven't seen a Ranger in play so if I'm off base please let me know.


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## cmbarona (Jan 30, 2009)

Yeah, I'm thinking a +3 would tie it neatly together. I think this makes it both worth the feat and competitive with other superior weapons, considering that spears are already middle of the line on associated feats and such. If it were +3/d8, I would be much more inclined to take it for Beastmaster Rangers and certain Warlords. Probably some specific Fighter builds, too.


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## webrunner (Jan 30, 2009)

Ask yourself: Is it ever the best choice?

Yes: Then it's niche, not underpowered

No: Then it's underpowered, because it's pointless.


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## Danceofmasks (Jan 30, 2009)

Well, if you're looking at superior weapons as having some sort of edge over martial weapons, then ...
It's a trident with a bit more range. That's it.

More or less pointless unless you're eladrin, and I don't think "eladrin intelligent swordmaster's basic ranged attack weapon of choice" is enough to make it niche.
More like an ultra-rare quirk.


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## HeirToPendragon (Jan 30, 2009)

Danceofmasks said:


> Well, if you're looking at superior weapons as having some sort of edge over martial weapons, then ...
> It's a trident with a bit more range. That's it.
> 
> More or less pointless unless you're eladrin, and I don't think "eladrin intelligent swordmaster's basic ranged attack weapon of choice" is enough to make it niche.
> More like an ultra-rare quirk.





You know, I'm gonna build that class, and it's gonna be the .

And then you all are gonna want Tratnyr's... but I'll have bought them ALL and NO YOU CAN'T HAVE ONE


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## cmbarona (Jan 31, 2009)

I guess one way to address the issue of the tratnyr being underpowered is to ask: Considering the very few current cases where using a tratnyr is ideal, would giving them a +3 proficiency make those cases overpowered?


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## infocynic (Jan 31, 2009)

I still wouldn't burn a feat for it even at +3 / 1d8 or +2 / 1d10, but at +3 / 1d10 it's obviously too good, so there's not much for it.


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## arscott (Feb 1, 2009)

It's the best one-handed spear in the game.  And if you're going for a thrown-weapon build, it's worth the feat--better range than you'll get by taking Far Throw and using a trident.


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## Drakhar (Feb 1, 2009)

It's a good secondary weapon for an Eladrin with Eladrin Soldier as they not only gain access to them but get a damage bonus with them. I plan on making a Great Spear Eladrin Fighter and having a Tratnyr as his ranged option.


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## jtrowell (Feb 2, 2009)

In my campaign, one of my PCs is an artificer and he doesn't want to use a crossbow nor bow, he prefer to take shield prof. and use a throw wepon. For him, the Trantyr is the best weapon available.


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## MarkB (Feb 2, 2009)

Drakhar said:


> It's a good secondary weapon for an Eladrin with Eladrin Soldier as they not only gain access to them but get a damage bonus with them. I plan on making a Great Spear Eladrin Fighter and having a Tratnyr as his ranged option.




Since my Eladrin Fighter was already a spear-and-shield-wielding fighter with the Eladrin Soldier feat before AV was published, I jumped at the chance to upgrade to a Tratnyr. It works just fine for me at melee range, and when I can't physically get to a target, a ranged basic attack will still let me mark them, at the same attack and damage bonuses as my regular attacks.

Currently, I'm using a Vicious tratnyr, but I intend to replace or supplement it with a Grasping tratnyr as soon as I can - the ability to Pull in, grab and mark an enemy from up to 20 squares away once per encounter is just unbeatable for a Defender.


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## infocynic (Feb 3, 2009)

So what I'm seeing is that it's a nice toy if you're an Eldarin, and that's about it.


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## cmbarona (Feb 3, 2009)

infocynic said:


> So what I'm seeing is that it's a nice toy if you're an Eldarin, and that's about it.




Which is ironic, considering it's supposed to be a _Dragonborn_ designed spear.


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## MarkB (Feb 3, 2009)

infocynic said:


> So what I'm seeing is that it's a nice toy if you're an Eldarin, and that's about it.




Pretty much. I went for it because it was a straight replacement for my existing weapon and didn't cost me anything extra for the versatility, but I couldn't see any other Fighter build going for it.

I also have a Drow Ranger who's stat-balanced to be versatile between ranged and melee combat (16s in STR and DEX). If I'd built her as an Eladrin, this might be her weapon of choice - but I haven't actually played her enough to decide whether a balanced ranged/melee build is even viable.


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## thisisaspace (Aug 9, 2009)

Aside for the example of the shield and tratnyr artificer above, an artificer with a tratnyr can still have an implement in her offhand, meaning she can make use of every artificer power there is without having to fumble in her backpack, and she probably doesn't have to worry about dancing away if anything with a pointed stick comes after her. That kind of versatility has to be worth something.


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## Rechan (Aug 9, 2009)

All the Ranger powers are Str (melee) and Dex (ranged). There's no Str (Ranged). None of the Ranger's powers work with a Heavy Thrown weapon. 

Thus, a heavy thrown weapon is only usable with a basic attack for a ranger.


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## Mort_Q (Aug 9, 2009)

There are some [Arena Fighting] feats that make a _Shield & Tratnyr Fighter_ more interesting, including an at-will reach attack, and a free heavy thrown attack option.


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## Nifft (Aug 9, 2009)

It's a very interesting weapon for the Bard, who just got a bunch of ranged weapon powers in Arcane Power.

Cheers, -- N


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## Turtlejay (Aug 9, 2009)

Thread necromancy!?!

You could have that argument for any number of weapons.  To me it boils down to this core thing that seems to be bugging a number of people.

It is the X is overpowered and Y is underpowered arguments that I don't like.  Should everything be balanced 100%?  Should everyone just roll a d20 sans modifiers and hit on a 10 or over, and do 3.5 damage?  Why roll?  We could average out what the average player does and just apply it.  Why have combats then, the DM could just email us a story.

There are a number of options in this game that are out of synch with the norm.  Either a little (or a lot!) better, of worse.  This is fine with me, since not every single person is going to play them.  Just like this thread condemned the Tratnyr early on as sub-par, and I have seen them in use, other threads have touted the brokenness of other items/powers/feats and they are often passed over.

Sorry for the ill worded rant, but at least I feel better now.

Jay


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## Pierson_Lowgal (Aug 9, 2009)

> There are some [Arena Fighting] feats that make a Shield & Tratnyr Fighter more interesting, including an at-will reach attack, and a free heavy thrown attack option.




Correct!  There is a cleave-arena-fighting feat that allows a throw attack instead of the damage to an adjacent target.  That allows two marks on an at-will for sword-and-board users.  Also, its a Dragonborn spear that works with draconic arrogance and all the other spear feats.


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## Skallgrim (Aug 10, 2009)

Pierson_Lowgal said:


> Correct!  There is a cleave-arena-fighting feat that allows a throw attack instead of the damage to an adjacent target.  That allows two marks on an at-will for sword-and-board users.  Also, its a Dragonborn spear that works with draconic arrogance and all the other spear feats.




Agreed.  Put this one handed spear on a dragonborn with a shield, Tide of Iron, Draconic Arrogance, Draeven Marauder, and the plethora of feats that help you push and knock prone your opponent.  Proceed to knock everything you fight down, push it away, and do your STR to them, twice (once for pushing, once for proning, plus the original hit).


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Aug 10, 2009)

Rechan said:


> All the Ranger powers are Str (melee) and Dex (ranged). There's no Str (Ranged). None of the Ranger's powers work with a Heavy Thrown weapon.



As far as I see, they work with it - but they still use Dexterity, not Strength.


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## karolusb (Aug 11, 2009)

I tend to lean towards them being underpowered.  And to some degree yes, when you create an economy, and release something into it it is fair to contemplate it's value.  

I have played around with the spear and shield fighter concept (using the cleave to throw feat), at the end of the day I am not sure that increasing the thrown range compared to a trident is worth the feat, it certainly wouldn't be a no brainer.  

Taking a look at my prospective build I would grab tratnyr at 8 (but I am not sure it wold be better than a stock feat like toughness) but would certainly sell it back at 11, and likely wouldn't bother to grab it again until I ran out of good options in the high teens.  

Since this is at best an obscure build, the best build I can possibly come up with for taking this feat, and the feat is niether integral nor optimal for it, I am inclined to say meh.


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## FDM (Aug 11, 2009)

My dragonborn warden uses it because it's fun. I agree that it may be underpowered but not THAT underpowered; I haven't felt outclassed by the other members of the party. If you just like the thought of using a weapon that looks like a harpoon, go for it. It is the best heavy thrown weapon and that can be nice if you don't want to invest your gold in both a magic melee weapon and a magic heavy thrown weapon.


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## DracoSuave (Aug 11, 2009)

Niche weapon is niche.  Can't really base it on more than that.

It's a heavy thrown weapon with the range of Magic Missile that can take melee-weapon based magic enhancement.

The value of that is entirely up to the player and whether Grasping Tratnyr +2 appeals to what a Fighter or Paladin or Warden wants in a ranged back-up weapon.


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## Klaus (Aug 11, 2009)

Skallgrim said:


> Agreed.  Put this one handed spear on a dragonborn with a shield, Tide of Iron, Draconic Arrogance, Draeven Marauder, and the plethora of feats that help you push and knock prone your opponent.  Proceed to knock everything you fight down, push it away, and do your STR to them, twice (once for pushing, once for proning, plus the original hit).



Now I have yet ANOTHER character to stat up. Thanks for nothing, man!


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## ChristopherA (Aug 12, 2009)

The tratnyr does seem a bit underwhelming, but not that bad. It does seem to have a clear purpose. If you want a character whose primary weapon is a thrown weapon, it is the best choice. Certainly worth the feat to upgrade your primary weapon from a trident or a javelin. Sort of an unusual character, not really supported by a lot of the existing classes, but still a straightforward idea. I mean, giving my mighty warrior with a heavy shield the ability to make a long-ranged attack with his primary weapon any time he is immobilized, fighting flying opponents, standing back for defense, or whatever, seems pretty cool. Maybe not "optimized" - you sure do take a substantial hit on your main melee attack - but good enough for me to think of making such a character. And I do fear that giving it as much as an additional +1 to hit might risk giving non-ranged classes a bit too much easy access to range.


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## DracoSuave (Aug 14, 2009)

Also, see above comment about a Grasping Tratnyr being a Defender's best friend.

Ranged 20 teleport someone next to me on a hit?  Yes, I think I like that on my Fighter/Paladin/Warden/Swordmage.


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