# Seduction = Bluff or Seduction = Diplomacy



## Shadowdancer

In Dragon No. 303, there is an article by Eric Cagle about "Saying the Right Things" in which the skill Diplomacy is used for seduction.

But in Sword and Fist, seduction was offered as one of the new possible uses of the skill Bluff.

So which is it? Or more to the point, which do you think it should be? What do you use in your game?


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## arwink

I think it'd depend on the situation.  Bluff if useful for outright flatery and bald-faced bravado, diplomacy for etiquette, courtship and other more polite forms of charming.


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## HellHound

I said Bluff...

Seduction *I* define as attempting to achieve intimacy with someone without the "proper" reasons (such as love, enjoyment of another's company, etc). It is essentially an underhanded ploy to get into the sack.

On the other hand, the same COULD be done with honesty and integrity using Diplomacy. I don't think of this as "Seduction" per se.


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## megamania

I use seduction as it's own skill.  If the PC has 5+ ranks in Bluff then they recieve a synergy bonus of +2 to their seduction roll.  Rarely use it but I felt Bluff by itself didn't cover it and Diplomacy was no where near the answer.


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## WayneLigon

HellHound said:
			
		

> *I said Bluff...
> 
> Seduction ...It is essentially an underhanded ploy to get into the sack....be done with honesty and integrity using Diplomacy. I don't think of this as "Seduction" per se. *




That's the system I use; I said 'Bluff' in the poll, since the term 'seduction' refers to the underhandedness you mention.


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## Reprisal

I think it would depend on the intent of the seduction. If the character was merely seducing out of a desire for anything other than the affection of the mark, then it would be a Bluff skill. If, however, if the character really wanted to attract a potential mate through seduction, then it would be a diplomacy check.

Working with the rules as they stand, I think it works well (enough), 

 - Rep.


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## Tonguez

Reprisal said:
			
		

> *I think it would depend on the intent of the seduction. If the character was merely seducing out of a desire for anything other than the affection of the mark, then it would be a Bluff skill. If, however, if the character really wanted to attract a potential mate through seduction, then it would be a diplomacy check.
> 
> Working with the rules as they stand, I think it works well (enough),
> 
> - Rep. *




I see Bluff as a active use of charm in order to illict a particular action

Whereas Diplomacy is use of charm to engender a particular social response.

ergo Seduction is Bluff as its purpose is to cause sexual arousal in the target a byproduct of which might be friendliness

Diplomacy would aim for getting a friendly reaction first


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## ced1106

Yeah, that's the problem with skills. I'd just toss the PC a bone and let him use whichever skill he prefers. Or you could pull a Call of Cthulhu BRP and have him roll against the average of the two skills.

Hmm... EQ RPG has the Disguise skill... 


Cedric.
aka. Washu! ^O^


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## Sanackranib

*neither*

I use a CHA check and certin "professional" NPC's would have it as a class skill ie: the descrete companion from traps and trechery

that said I would allow seduction to be taken as a feat or skill by a PC.


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## rounser

Bluff is one of the skills that rogues tend to pump up a lot, too...


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## Ashwyn

I'm not sure which I would use, but I'm inclined to think that Orcs would use Intimidate.


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## Terraism

Ashwyn said:
			
		

> *I'm not sure which I would use, but I'm inclined to think that Orcs would use Intimidate. *



Teddy bear!   [Chuckle.]  I think you're probably right, though - and for once, that charisma penalty to the score makes sense.

I voted "who needs seduction," by the way.


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## Ashwyn

Terraism said:
			
		

> *
> Teddy bear!   [Chuckle.]  I think you're probably right, though - and for once, that charisma penalty to the score makes sense.
> 
> *



Now that I think about it, lots of skills could be used for seduction. For a woman who is particularly well endowed, Jump. In the right situation, Pick Pocket could be useful. You could use Perform to do a dance that would seduce someone. And for those with very low Charisma, there's always Handle Animal. Good day!


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## David Argall

*complications*

"I think it would depend on the intent of the seduction. If the character was merely seducing out of a desire for anything other than the affection of the mark, then it would be a Bluff skill. If, however, if the character really wanted to attract a potential mate through seduction, then it would be a diplomacy check.

Working with the rules as they stand, I think it works well (enough),"

    That should be the basics.  Bluff assumes you have something to hide, so if your intentions are hump and dump, or persuade the guard to leave his post, or...  a bluff check is in order.  And if your intentions are "honorable" [which would include offering gold..], it's a diplomacy check.   

    But there are a lot of complications.  When she asks if the dress makes her look fat, a bluff check is definitely in order [or a con check on your attempt to run at top speed.]  And most seductions will involve more than one roll, and most of them will be diplomacy rolls whatever your intentions.

   Some cases will involve both rolls.  You fail the bluff, she knows you just want her body.  But you get a really great diplomacy roll and she decides you are a great guy worth giving it to.


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## Nathan

For me, the Bluff skill is merely for lying/cheating, etc. Players roll this skill against Sense Motive, etc.

Whereas using the Diplomacy skill doesn't mean that you have to be truthful. Cheating even helps, look at the synergy bonus from Bluff. Therefore, I would let my players roll a Diplomacy check, independent of their motives.

If in turn the NPC being seducted tries a Sense Motive check to look through the motives, the players might have to roll Bluff.

Therefore, I voted for "Diplomacy".

One can also think of if the bard should be allowed to take Perform (Seduction).

Nathan


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## BOZ

diplomacy to get a girlfriend, bluff to get a one night stand.


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## takyris

I put House Rule, mainly because, like the other folks here, I vary it based on intent.    I tend to allow either Diplomacy or Perform for people who really like the person they're attempting to seduce, and Bluff or Perform for people who are attempting to seduce someone with a motive, be it "Just getting some action", lifting their purse later, or distracting them while the party sneaks by.

I only allow Perform if "Acting" is listed as one of the character's Perform skills, though.

And in general, it's not worth rolling for.  Characters in my game usually roleplay their significant others, and using sex as a weapon has never been an issue.

-Tacky


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## BOZ

keep in mind, with synergy bonuses, you can use perform and another Charisma-based skill at the same time.    ergo, a bard can sing a song to a woman, enhancing his bluff roll.


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## Kerrick

We made Seduction an entirely new skill, sicne it incorporates elements from both Bluff and Diplomacy. Seduction is a fine art that takes place over time - it's not trying to get someone into bed for a one-night stand, or trying to pull the guard away from his post (though I guess you could use it that way...). The way we wrote it, you use Seduction to get soemone to do things for you by giving them a little of what they want each time - leading them on, in effect. For anyone who's interested, the Seduction skill appears in _Crimson Contracts: The Assassin's Manifesto_. (Sorry for the plug - couldn't resist  )


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## Umbran

I'd think it would depend on the situation and exactly what the character is trying to do.  Either Diplomacy or Bluff could be appropriate in different settings.


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## KnowTheToe

There is no sex in roll playing so I reduce it to a simple role using diplomacy or bluff, use best modifier.  

What I find interesting is that so many people are using bluff.  What, when men are seducing women or vise-versa (Yeah, right) in a bar, club, class etc, you do not think they are sincere, but are fibbing to up their odds for a date or knocken some boots?


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## jmucchiello

As stated in Joe's Book of Enchantment, Seduction is a composite skill, made from Bluff and Diplomacy. The seducer uses whichever skill she wishes and the seducee "defends" with either Sense Motive or Diplomacy, which every he wishes. Composite skills will be revisited in Character Customization.

Kerrick: Very similar to my write-up. My write-up makes no assumption about what the seducer will get out of his seduction. Only that he is tempting the seducee with some "desire".

Edit: KnowTheToe: Seduction doesn't have to involve sex. You can seduce someone into stealing money from their employer by promising them something they desire.


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## Ravellion

BOZ said:
			
		

> *diplomacy to get a girlfriend, bluff to get a one night stand.   *



I just DID quote you on that!

I agree though, so no worries...

Rav


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## am181d

Shadowdancer said:
			
		

> *So which is it? Or more to the point, which do you think it should be? What do you use in your game? *



Well, since the Bluff skill isn't really designed to persuade people.  You could use Bluff to make an NPC think you were interested in them, but I don't see how that would be particularly useful for seduction...

(I suppose you could also use Bluff to feign indifference, if you want to "play hard to get.")

It wouldn't be an issue if Diplomacy were simply called "Persuade", which is what it generally winds up getting used for...


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## Henry

KnowTheToe said:
			
		

> *What I find interesting is that so many people are using bluff.  What, when men are seducing women or vise-versa (Yeah, right) in a bar, club, class etc, you do not think they are sincere, but are fibbing to up their odds for a date or knocken some boots? *




I think the better definition of Bluff vs. Diplomacy would be the following:


Bluff is used to tell the target what they want to hear.

Diplomacy is about getting the target to agree with you, and for the most part to tell YOU what YOU want to hear.


*Bluffing* is good for feinting, because you give the target the "tells" he expects to see.

*Bluffing* is good for seduction because you give your object of desire the "tells" that they use to tell them you are suitable for intimacy - whether it is the truth, or a lie, doesn't matter. The good bluffer knows when the truth works just as well as a lie.

*Diplomacy* is for convincing someone to your way of thinking, or at the very least a compromise that is just as good for you as for them.


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## BOZ

KnowTheToe said:
			
		

> *There is no sex in roll playing *




are you serious?  

hey, with so many virgins into gaming (sorry fellas, we know you're out there) how can you not expect them to find an outlet, albeit a particularly imaginary one, for their frustrations?  

lol, seriously if you're all adults, it can be a lot of fun (or hell, even if you're all kids...)


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## barsoomcore

Henry said:
			
		

> *Bluff is used to tell the target what they want to hear.
> 
> Diplomacy is about getting the target to agree with you, and for the most part to tell YOU what YOU want to hear. *



Not sure I agree with you. I would say:

A successful Bluff check means the target believes you.

A successful Diplomacy check means the target LIKES you.

The primary use of Diplomacy is to shift an NPC's position on the NPC Attitude chart, right? To change them from Hostile to Friendly.

So seduction I guess would work like this: First the target must be Friendly. Use Diplomacy to get them to that state. Second, unless true love is at hand, use Bluff to make the target believe that sleeping with you is a good idea.

Now, of course, most "seduction" actually involves two people more or less seducing themselves. If we're just talking about getting together with someone pretty for a night's entertainment, then I don't require any sorts of rolls. I would work with a system like this only if the NPC in question had reasons to NOT sleep with the PC.

Otherwise, big deal. Why make anyone roll for that?


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## Dark Jezter

I'd say that whether seduction is a diplomacy or bluff check would depend on the situation.

For example, if the party's rogue tries to seduce the sultry barmaid by making up a bogus story that he is a prince in exile on a quest to reclaim his lost kindgom, it would be a bluff check.

On the other hand, if the well-traveled adventurer was telling the young noblewoman about his previous adventures in an effort to impress her and get her into bed, I'd say that would be a diplomacy check.


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## Shadowdancer

KnowTheToe said:
			
		

> *There is no sex in roll playing*




Don't ever play in our game, then. There's always sex in our game. But then, we're all older than 40, so we can handle it. For some of the players, it's the only sex they're getting.


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## KitanaVorr

Or instead of rolling dice, you can just roleplay it.


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## CRGreathouse

HellHound said:
			
		

> *I said Bluff...
> 
> Seduction *I* define as attempting to achieve intimacy with someone without the "proper" reasons (such as love, enjoyment of another's company, etc). It is essentially an underhanded ploy to get into the sack.
> 
> On the other hand, the same COULD be done with honesty and integrity using Diplomacy. I don't think of this as "Seduction" per se. *




I'm with Hound here.


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## Skarp Hedin

Though my players would probably rather choke on their own tongues before getting into any sort of seduction roleplaying, I'd say that it would depend on the circumstances.. basically, what the Hound said.


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