# Best map maker?



## Jinglehopper (Mar 24, 2009)

Hi there,

I'm starting up a new campaign and thinking about all the maps I'm hungry to make (I love maps as a player and want to extend that to my DMing.)  We play in an apartment with projection capabilities and I plan on extensively using it to display artwork but also maps of the area, cities, etc.  

Problem is, I'm not much of an artist.  In the past, I've hand drawn maps and then scanned them in order to project on the wall.  They were passable, but not awesome.  For this new campaign, I want the maps to look good but also want them to be edited and generated easily.  I don't have tons of money but I'm willing to purchase something if I think it's warranted.

I'm soliciting the EN crowd for the experiences you've had with map making software.  I've looked at a few, but it's hard to tell their success without some anecdotal evidence.

What do you think?

What's the best map maker out there?


Greg


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## mudbunny (Mar 24, 2009)

While I can't provide a direct answer, I recommend checking out Cartographers Guild :: Homepage. Mapping is what they do, and they can recommend all sorts of programs, and provide tutorials/help to boot.


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## Stoat (Mar 24, 2009)

Folks are going to suggest Campaign Cartographer, Dundjinni and Photoshop.

I'm a fan of Campaign Cartographer.  It has a very steep learning curve, but once you figure it out you can bang out good looking maps quickly.  

I used to use Campaign Cartographer with a projector for all my games.  Once the map is complete, its easy to move icons around to represent the PC's and monsters.  With a little more work, it's possible to draw a map so that you can hide or expose each room at will.


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## Ashrem Bayle (Mar 24, 2009)

I use a projector for my game too. Of late, I've found all I need is Photoshop.

Creek Encounter






Mountain Encounter





Mountain Encounter 2





Basement Dungeon (Well leads down to Basement Dungeon 2)





Basement Dungeon 2 (White Dragon Lair)


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## jdrakeh (Mar 24, 2009)

For 'old school' overland hexmaps, there's really nothing better than Hex Mapper. I tried CC3 a couple of years back but found it far too complex. I'm currently fooling around with Fractal Mapper, which I find to be very comparable to CC3 with a much more gentle learning curve. For all of these programs, I recommend Photoshop as a near necessary companion — the large array of texture filters and text options is absolutely fantastic.


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## Maggan (Mar 24, 2009)

Ashrem Bayle said:


> I use a projector for my game too. Of late, I've found all I need is Photoshop.




Awesome cool! Are you using photos as base graphics?

/M


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## Ashrem Bayle (Mar 25, 2009)

Maggan said:


> Awesome cool! Are you using photos as base graphics?
> 
> /M




Yeah, for the most part.


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## slwoyach (Mar 25, 2009)

Civ 3 map editor?


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## Jan van Leyden (Mar 25, 2009)

What kind of maps do you want to produce and how much awesomeness are you aiming at?

If you want to focus on battlemaps, Dundjinni or your trusted ol' CorelDraw are good candidates. Dundjinni has a very active community which can help you and give you lots of axamples, and you can achieve very good results. CorelDraw or a comparable CAD software lets you easily whip up a battlemap, re-using a lot of previous work. You can search the net for free tiles to use as building blocks, but will be hard pressed to get pseudo-realistic looking maps.

If you want to focus on large-scale, overland, world or town/city maps, Campaign Cartographer Fractal Mapper fit the bill. Look around at their web-sites to get an impression of what kind of results you'll get "out of the box". For simple, utalitarian maps probably like you did them by hand, the free Autorealm might suffice.

The Holy Grail of world-building/map-making would be a GIS, but I have yet to see one which makes the process easy enough for roleplaying gamers.


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## Jeff Wilder (Mar 25, 2009)

Ashrem Bayle said:


> [Photoshopped encounter maps.]



Wow.  Those are seriously impressive.  Like, professional game cartographer impressive.

My players would bitch about them anyway.  "Can we stand in this square?"  "Is this square difficult terrain?"  And so on.  If I had the skills to do that (I don't), I'd have to lay the grid down first and work the image into the grid, which would impact the aesthetics.


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## Darrin Drader (Mar 25, 2009)

Ashrem Bayle said:


> I use a projector for my game too. Of late, I've found all I need is Photoshop.




Nice! My Photoshop-foo clearly does not rival yours.

I really need to spend more time at the Cartographer's Guild.


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## rounser (Mar 25, 2009)

> For 'old school' overland hexmaps, there's really nothing better than Hex Mapper.



It's best grid equivalent seems to be Lior's Map Creator (Map Creator - Home).  Bit of a memory hog but features like being able to make icons within the program help make up for it.  Programmer is on these boards, iirc.


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## Jinglehopper (Mar 25, 2009)

Thanks for the links guys, I'm checking them out now.

I was thinking more of overland and city maps, preferring to sketch out a map with markers and battlemap for the actual encounters.

But I have to agree that those gridded maps look awesome, Ashrem.  Where did you get the source photos?  And how do you best reveal them in PS, Black layer with a large erase tool?


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## Silverblade The Ench (Mar 25, 2009)

you can also make maps with 3D software!

old stuff, with Bryce
dwarven fort















Gnoll mine





[Sblock="Hobgoblin fortress done in Rhino"]









[/sblock]

could do a lot better nowadays


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## seregil (Mar 25, 2009)

Also, if you wish to use Photoshop. I might suggest Gimp. Gimp is essentially the Open Source equivalent of Photoshop and is free. There are both Linux and Windows versions available.


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## Jinglehopper (Mar 25, 2009)

Yeesh, Bryce seems a little too heavy-duty for me, thanks though Silverblade.

CC3 definitely looks the most promising.  But I'm confused by all the addons.  Do you need all of them?  Can you make basic cities without the City Designer for example?


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## Jürgen Hubert (Mar 25, 2009)

Personally, I use Inkscape. Sure, it doesn't come with lots of premade objects like dedicated map-making programs. But it's free, fast, and the maps are easily scalable.

I made this map with Inkscape, for instance.


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## ki11erDM (Mar 25, 2009)

I have used just about everything the people above talk about. I gave up and starting using Illustrator. Have not looked back.


[rant]
I have no idea why the tools made for map making suck so bad, but the day someone puts out a vector graphic mapper with a UI that is not designed by morons I will pay good money for it. 
[/rant]


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## Jinglehopper (Mar 25, 2009)

ki11erDM said:


> I have used just about everything the people above talk about. I gave up and starting using Illustrator. Have not looked back.
> 
> 
> [rant]
> ...




That is exactly the problem I was worried about.  Is it really that difficult to make great looking maps with CC3?

Please keep in mind that I have next to zero visual artist ability, I've tried to make things in photoshop but it just looks awful.


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## Hand of Evil (Mar 25, 2009)

You have to find the best one for you, download the demos and give all a try.  Find the one that you are going to use!


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## kitsune9 (Mar 25, 2009)

Jinglehopper said:


> Hi there,
> 
> I'm starting up a new campaign and thinking about all the maps I'm hungry to make (I love maps as a player and want to extend that to my DMing.)  We play in an apartment with projection capabilities and I plan on extensively using it to display artwork but also maps of the area, cities, etc.
> 
> ...




In my own experience in owning Campaign Cartographer 2 and 3 (along with the Dungeon Designer add-ons) and Dundjinni, I would say Dundjinni is the better one because I found it way easier to make maps that looked half-way cool than with CC. 

CC3 does have it cool perks and do a lot more in terms of shading, transperancy, layers, etc., but I always find it really hard to work with and so far, my dungeon maps look terrible compared to the Dundjinni ones I created.

If you're looking for a simple-to-use software, I'd check out Dundjinni though CC3 is decent if you have the time.


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## Bold or Stupid (Mar 25, 2009)

Does Dundjinni do world mapping?


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## ki11erDM (Mar 25, 2009)

Bold or Stupid said:


> Does Dundjinni do world mapping?




Not the last time i looked at it.


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## Jinglehopper (Mar 25, 2009)

Hand of Evil said:


> You have to find the best one for you, download the demos and give all a try.  Find the one that you are going to use!




Definitely true.  I was just wondering about other DMs experiences with mapping tools.  Sometimes software can be frustrating at first but worth it once you get the hang of things.  Others are just plain bad.

The Cartographer's Guild is a great resource but I'm worried that I will never have the chops to match their best maps.


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## ki11erDM (Mar 25, 2009)

Jinglehopper said:


> That is exactly the problem I was worried about. Is it really that difficult to make great looking maps with CC3?
> 
> Please keep in mind that I have next to zero visual artist ability, I've tried to make things in photoshop but it just looks awful.




With illustrator at least you can go buy a book and learn it... you might even be able to use those skills in RL. Is illustrator perfect? heck no. but i do feel like i have control over what i am doing.

If you are going to be making large campaign sized maps you really need to use a CAD program or a Vector Graphics program so you can keep the size down and zoom in and out quickly and easily. If you want to just make small maps that don’t need to scale then photoshop or Dundjinni will do well.


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## Mercutio01 (Mar 25, 2009)

You can force Dundjinni to make campaign maps.  There are add-on user art packs created with that in mind, and there are also ISO map objects it that's your bag.

Here's a link where someone made city level maps.  
http://www.dundjinni.com/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=2085&PN=3

I've attached one I made in fairly short time.  It's nothing fancy, and it doesn't look half as good as the battlemaps made in Dundjinni, and I'm not a good cartographer, but this served my purposes.


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## Jack99 (Mar 25, 2009)

Old School Maps FTW


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## Ashrem Bayle (Mar 26, 2009)

Jeff Wilder said:


> Wow.  Those are seriously impressive.  Like, professional game cartographer impressive.




Thanks!


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## Bishop Odo (Mar 26, 2009)

There is no one best program, there is a thread at the Cartographer’s Guild that discusses just that. Also there is no short cuts, every program has a learning curve, and so be forewarned unless you want to invest time and lean it, best stick to paper and pen, or buy your maps, and demos are nice but they can just lead to being overwhelmed.

CC3 has a lot of support geared toward mapping, tutorials and such. Photoshop has just as much if not more information out there but applying to mapping might take a little creativity. From what I can see, most people who become proficient in one system then branch out and learn other styles and programs to add to the first style. Some at the Cartographer Guild are versed in multiple programs and used them for little things. 

However remember if you become an expert in say Campaign Cartographer 3, what application to the real world would you have, compared to Photoshop? But them again, there are elements that all these program share.


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## Nellisir (Mar 26, 2009)

I've recently started a masters in landscape architecture, so computer-illustrated geography is a Big Deal.  Our core four are Photoshop/GIMP, Illustrator/Inkscape, AutoCAD, and Sketchup.  I think Photoshop has an ease of use that GIMP lacks, and documentation is a hundred times better, but much of the photoshop documentation can also be applied to GIMP, and GIMP's pricetag (free!) is hard to beat.

I had some issues with Inkscape crashing, but Illustrator rocks.  Again, though, for the price (Free!) Inkscape is pretty awesome.  And not much beats Sketchup for simplicity, ease of use, and awesomeness of price (again, FREE!)  I'm  going to start playing around with it for dungeon mapping.

AutoCAD was designed by human-hating aliens, and gradually turns you into one of them.  Awesome if you know it, but learning involves ritual scarification.

Now that I've gotten more experience with photoshop & illustrator I'll probably try Gimp & Inkscape again over the summer, just to compare.


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## Jürgen Hubert (Mar 26, 2009)

Nellisir said:


> I've recently started a masters in landscape architecture, so computer-illustrated geography is a Big Deal.  Our core four are Photoshop/GIMP, Illustrator/Inkscape, AutoCAD, and Sketchup.  I think Photoshop has an ease of use that GIMP lacks, and documentation is a hundred times better, but much of the photoshop documentation can also be applied to GIMP, and GIMP's pricetag (free!) is hard to beat.
> 
> I had some issues with Inkscape crashing, but Illustrator rocks.  Again, though, for the price (Free!) Inkscape is pretty awesome.




I use GIMP and Inkscape in combination with a graphics tablet - which makes drawing coastlines and other irregular shapes a _lot_ easier.


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## Hand of Evil (Mar 26, 2009)

Jinglehopper said:


> Definitely true.  I was just wondering about other DMs experiences with mapping tools.  Sometimes software can be frustrating at first but worth it once you get the hang of things.  Others are just plain bad.
> 
> The Cartographer's Guild is a great resource but I'm worried that I will never have the chops to match their best maps.





I have used just about every map maker there is, Campaign Cartographer is the best because that is its job, to make maps - the learning curve is there but if you do the tutorials you will learn a lot.  

I would then follow it up with NBOS' Fractal Mapper.  I have played around with using Vue/Bryce/Poser.  I am just starting to learn Photoshop mapping but then I have a dream of using Z-Brush to do some 3D maps.


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## SiderisAnon (Mar 26, 2009)

I use Campaign Cartographer 3.  I have an architectual background, so the CAD interface makes sense to me.

My recomendation to anyone thinking of getting a map maping program is to remember that map making is an art and a skill, and that both take time, patience, and lots of practice.  No matter what they say, you will not be able to turn out professional looking maps in your first five minutes, or even in your first five hours.  You have to take the time to learn how to use the program, probably while creating numerous maps to hone your skills.  If you take your first attempts and compare it to the glorious things you can find on the web, you will end up disappoined in whatever program you picked.  The programs are not magic, unfortunately.

Now, the programmer that invents a mapping program that can just read your mind and produce art, that person will be both rich and worshipped.


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## jdrakeh (Mar 26, 2009)

SiderisAnon said:


> My recomendation to anyone thinking of getting a map maping program is to remember that map making is an art and a skill, and that both take time, patience, and lots of practice.  No matter what they say, you will not be able to turn out professional looking maps in your first five minutes, or even in your first five hours.  You have to take the time to learn how to use the program, probably while creating numerous maps to hone your skills.




It's also worth noting that artisitic talent does not necessarily translate into good computer CAD skills. Back in the day, I could knock out extremely detailed maps in black ink on faux parchment that looked great (I suppose I still could, if I had the space to work in) but that didn't help me at _all_ with computer mapping.


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## Grymar (Mar 26, 2009)

No one mentioned AutoRealm? I did an old-school hex map on it for my last session and got a lot of positive response on it, much more than the maps that I've spent 4-5 hours on using GIMP.


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## Jinglehopper (Mar 26, 2009)

SiderisAnon said:


> My recomendation to anyone thinking of getting a map maping program is to remember that map making is an art and a skill, and that both take time, patience, and lots of practice.




This is a very good point.  My lack of art skills will probably persist unless I devote a lot of time into honing them.  And while I love maps, and making them, I'd much rather spend time preparing the campaign and playing.  Perhaps I will just stick with pen and paper maps.

They do have a certain charm, even if they don't look quite so professional.


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## Ethalias (Mar 30, 2009)

I'm in a similar position to the OP: Would love custom made gorgeous maps, but lack art skills and the time to develop them.  Are there any keen gaming cartographers out there hungry for a new project?  Collaboration FTW!


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## Calico_Jack73 (Mar 30, 2009)

I like Dundjinni quite a bit.

AutoRealm is great for making campaign setting maps (plus it is free).

If you use the old 3E Dungeon Tiles I reccommed using WotC's Dungeon Tile Mapper.  Also free it helps you design you maps using the tile sets that you own.

Dungeon Tile Mapper -- v1.2.0


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