# "D&D Legacy"



## S'mon (Oct 8, 2010)

This is effectively a forum just for 3e & 3.5e D&D.  I feel there is nowhere on ENW I can discuss specific elements of pre-3e D&D.  Perhaps we could have a "3e" forum and a "pre 3e" forum?


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## Aus_Snow (Oct 8, 2010)

I agree. _Excellent_ idea.

I think there would be quite a bit of older D&D discussion, were that made to appear more welcome.

The way things are currently set up, that just really _isn't_ the case.


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## Morrus (Oct 8, 2010)

There isn't the traffic to justify it, I'm afraid.  Our policy is to facilitate existing conversation, not to try to create conversations.

If you can get people talking about it more to the extent that a forum is warranted, we'll certainly consider it.


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## Aus_Snow (Oct 8, 2010)

Morrus said:


> There isn't the traffic to justify it, I'm afraid.  Our policy is to facilitate existing conversation, not to try to create conversations.
> 
> If you can get people talking about it more to the extent that a forum is warranted, we'll certainly consider it.



I feel that's a bit of a Catch 22. And, honestly, given a chance, I think it would work. And hey, without trying, could be it's a lost opportunity.

But, of course, you da boss.  I'm not about to challenge your right to do as you see fit.

Also, I must admit, I would personally love to see it happen, and post there, what's more. Biased? Nah.


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## Morrus (Oct 8, 2010)

Aus_Snow said:


> I feel that's a bit of a Catch 22. And, honestly, given a chance, I think it would work. And hey, without trying, could be it's a lost opportunity.




That way lies the fateful curse suffered by millions of messageboards littered across the web - dozens of empty forums with two threads in each.  They all used that utterly untrue pseudo-philosophical movie quote: "if you build it they will come".  The truth is, if you build it, it will sit there empty. 



> Also, I must admit, I would personally love to see it happen, and post there, what's more. Biased? Nah.




Start talking about it and make it needed.


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## the Jester (Oct 8, 2010)

S'mon said:


> This is effectively a forum just for 3e & 3.5e D&D.  I feel there is nowhere on ENW I can discuss specific elements of pre-3e D&D.  Perhaps we could have a "3e" forum and a "pre 3e" forum?




Huh. I don't exactly frequent the legacy forum, but I've been involved in several conversations about 1e and 2e there.


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## Aus_Snow (Oct 8, 2010)

Morrus said:


> That way lies the fateful curse suffered by millions of messageboards littered across the web - dozens of empty forums with two threads in each.  They all used that utterly untrue pseudo-philosophical movie quote: "if you build it they will come".  The truth is, if you build it, it will sit there empty.



If it's a lot of work to make that kind of thing happen, I would certainly understand. Or even a bit of work, I guess - after all, you don't seem convinced it's worthwhile, so. . .

Would a poll in the general forum help to persuade you (assuming results were, y'know, supportive of such a move) ? Perhaps a closed (to non-logged-in users) poll? Or one that records usernames, at the very least.

Sound reasonable?




> Start talking about it and make it needed.



I did try that once or twice*, when I came across a thread or two, after the 3e fora were altered, to "include" every other "legacy" D&D system as well. Now, I _know_ there are quite a few gamers who are members here, who are also into OD&D (or the like), and who love to talk about it. But in _at least_ one of those threads, I was - AFAIR - the *only* person responding; the only reason *I* was there in the first place was because I was heavily into 3e/2d0 at the time.  Because, yeah, those fora are still (even now!) very much 3e-oriented. That's their history, their "placement" if you will, and it just seems everyone (OK, _nearly_ everyone, and the couple of exceptions have apparently given up anyhow) views them as 3e-centric, and therefore uses them as such, or ignores them altogether, accordingly. When I tried to contribute to said thread(s), the whole thing felt very awkward, as though older D&D had been sort of jammed in, amid a - at best - totally indifferent crowd of regular users.


* And yeah, I *have* discussed some OD&D/BD&D/1e/2e stuff in, f'rex, the general forum. . . but there are limits as to what should be included _there_, of course. Or so it "feels", so to speak. Specific 4e stuff goes in a 4e forum, specific 3e stuff in a 3e (++! ) forum, but. . . other D&D stuff? Well.


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## Morrus (Oct 8, 2010)

Aus_Snow said:


> If it's a lot of work to make that kind of thing happen, I would certainly understand. Or even a bit of work, I guess - after all, you don't seem convinced it's worthwhile, so. . .




Because everyone has a theory that a certain forum would be popular.  If I opened 'em on request, we'd have 5000 forums with one thread in each.



> Would a poll in the general forum help to persuade you (assuming results were, y'know, supportive of such a move) ? Perhaps a closed (to non-logged-in users) poll? Or one that records usernames, at the very least.




'Fraid not.  A bunch of people saying "I would like to talk about older editions" is not the same as people actually talking about older editions.

The only thing that will persuade me is seeing enough conversation on the topic to warrant such a forum.  If the interest really is there, the conversation will exist already.


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## Aus_Snow (Oct 8, 2010)

Theory, meet theory! 

Nay, ne'er the twain shall meet. 

Ah well, I tried. Sorry, S'mon, if I have in any way _hindered_ progress. And Morrus, if I've been at all irritating. Not my intention, in either case.


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## S'mon (Oct 8, 2010)

IMO there's no discussion of pre-3e because there's nowhere on enw it's made to feel welcome.  I avoid the Legacy forum because it feels very 3e-crunchy, which doesn't interest me.

Oh well, I guess I'll go on talking about 1e & BX etc on dragonsfoot and on the rpgnet 'd20' forum, then.  It's kinda strange that rpgnet is a more welcoming venue than ENW on this, but I guess that's just how it worked out.  On the rpgnet forum 4e, 3e and Pathfinder all have to fight for space, so there's no feeling of exclusivity to a particular edition of D&D.  Whereas ENW has 3 fora in which 4e, Pathfinder and 3e each have uncontested rule.


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## IronWolf (Oct 8, 2010)

S'mon said:


> IMO there's no discussion of pre-3e because there's nowhere on enw it's made to feel welcome.  I avoid the Legacy forum because it feels very 3e-crunchy, which doesn't interest me.




The Legacy forum is pretty up front about being for all pre-4e versions of the system.  It is definitely 3e heavy at the moment, but are folks actually being unwelcoming of discussion of the older systems?  I am a fairly regular lurker, occasional poster in that forum and I have not seen it.

Post some threads in there and let's see what you get!  It might draw more folks out and if enough post and show enough activity, maybe Morrus would reconsider and give the older systems their own forum.


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## pawsplay (Oct 8, 2010)

S'mon said:


> IMO there's no discussion of pre-3e because there's nowhere on enw it's made to feel welcome.  I avoid the Legacy forum because it feels very 3e-crunchy, which doesn't interest me.




I would love to be more welcoming. However, I don't generally talk about older editions unless I'm reminiscing, converting, or talking theory. Theory usually goes in General. I would probably respond to an older edition thread if it were interesting, though.



> Oh well, I guess I'll go on talking about 1e & BX etc on dragonsfoot and on the rpgnet 'd20' forum, then.




Let me pose this question: what would convince a dragonsfoot poster to come here to post?



> It's kinda strange that rpgnet is a more welcoming venue than ENW on this, but I guess that's just how it worked out.




Ouch.



> On the rpgnet forum 4e, 3e and Pathfinder all have to fight for space, so there's no feeling of exclusivity to a particular edition of D&D.  Whereas ENW has 3 fora in which 4e, Pathfinder and 3e each have uncontested rule.




3e doesn't have "uncontested rule." It just has traffic. 

I think this is one of those Gandhi moments: Be the change you wish to see in the world. Start two older edition threads a week and see if you don't start a trend.


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## Morrus (Oct 9, 2010)

S'mon said:


> IMO there's no discussion of pre-3e because there's nowhere on enw it's made to feel welcome. I avoid the Legacy forum because it feels very 3e-crunchy, which doesn't interest me.




I disagree with your theory.  We created a Pathfinder forum because there was a lot of Pathfinder discussion and it needed a space.

We'll create a 1E forum if there is a lot of 1E discussion and it needs space.  



> Oh well, I guess I'll go on talking about 1e & BX etc on dragonsfoot and on the rpgnet 'd20' forum, then. I




Prophecy, fulfill thyself!  I feel absolved.  

Remember - we're not trying to socially engineer topics of conversation.  If it exists, we'll accomodate it.  

If you're interested: the way to achieve your goal is to encourage 1E conversation here until it reaches the point where it needs a forum.  That assumes your goal is "a 1E forum at EN World".  If it's simply "a forum where I like talking about 1E" then it sounds like you're already set, and I don't need to do anything.


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## Morrus (Oct 9, 2010)

S'mon said:


> IMO there's no discussion of pre-3e because there's nowhere on enw it's made to feel welcome. I avoid the Legacy forum because it feels very 3e-crunchy, which doesn't interest me.




I disagree with your theory.  We created a Pathfinder forum because there was a lot of Pathfinder discussion and it needed a space.

We'll create a 1E forum if there is a lot of 1E discussion and it needs space.  



> Oh well, I guess I'll go on talking about 1e & BX etc on dragonsfoot and on the rpgnet 'd20' forum, then. I




Prophecy, fulfill thyself!  I feel absolved.  

Remember - we're not trying to socially engineer topics of conversation.  If it exists, we'll accomodate it.  

If you're interested: the way to achieve your goal is to encourage 1E conversation here until it reaches the point where it needs a forum.  That assumes your goal is "a 1E forum at EN World".  If it's simply "a forum where I like talking about 1E" then it sounds like you're already set, and I don't need to do anything.


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## S'mon (Oct 9, 2010)

I'm actually not a fan of having loads of sub-fora (I think dragonsfoot has too many too), really I'd be happy with a single forum I could discuss anything related to any edition of any RPG.  My goal would be to have somewhere at ENW where I'd feel comfortable talking about specific elements of pre-3e D&D.  I normally post in General; talking about specific stuff there would get a thread moved to a different forum, presumably Legacy.  When I browse Legacy it appears to be 100% 3e crunch.


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## Aus_Snow (Oct 9, 2010)

S'mon said:


> II normally post in General; talking about specific stuff there would get a thread moved to a different forum, presumably Legacy.  When I browse Legacy it appears to be 100% 3e crunch.



That's because it is.

And the reason for that? Like I said, history. More or less. For so long, they were the 3e Rules and 3e House Rules fora. Then, suddenly one day, 1e and 2e and so on were "tacked on". But regular users of specific fora are not typically going to (equally suddenly) change their gaming preferences, or even _interests_. And those who wouldn't ever have even visited them - why would they now suddenly look there, just in case their fields of interest had indeed been "miraculously" welded on? Quite.

Since then, if anyone (e.g., S'mon) _does_ look there, on the off chance, guess what they'll see? The exact same kinds of 3e rules and house rules topics as ever before. The same old. And again, the couple of times I remember someone tentatively trying it out, the indifference was, well, _predictable_ if nothing else. I gave responding a go, partly because I felt someone ought to, and partly because I recall liking the poster(s). And hey, because it seemed interesting too (but yeah, I was primarily into 3e/d20 at the time, so not really the best candidate) - kinda "bumping" the thread, hoping to catch someone _else's_ eye in the process, because topmost threads from any forum are visible, should someone be scrolling the message boards index for whatever reason, at that precise moment.

Surprise, surprise - the threads died a quick death. Said people didn't bother again - why would they? I certainly wouldn't. Er, _haven't_.

And so it goes. But then, the odds of this forum actually happening, _regardless_. . . Hm.


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## pawsplay (Oct 9, 2010)

S'mon said:


> I'm actually not a fan of having loads of sub-fora (I think dragonsfoot has too many too), really I'd be happy with a single forum I could discuss anything related to any edition of any RPG.  My goal would be to have somewhere at ENW where I'd feel comfortable talking about specific elements of pre-3e D&D.  I normally post in General; talking about specific stuff there would get a thread moved to a different forum, presumably Legacy.  When I browse Legacy it appears to be 100% 3e crunch.




Well, feeling comfortable is more of a personal emotional issue.


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## S'mon (Oct 9, 2010)

pawsplay said:


> Well, feeling comfortable is more of a personal emotional issue.




So?


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## pawsplay (Oct 10, 2010)

S'mon said:


> So?




So, the forums could be restructured, or not, but nothing anyone else can do is going to make you feel comfortable posting. The Legacy forum specifically includes an invitation to post older edition stuff there. If you choose not to, that is clearly not anyone else's doing.


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## Ahnehnois (Oct 13, 2010)

I suggest merging the two "legacy" forums with Pathfinder to make a "3.X General" forum. It seems strange to separate PF out; there isn't much separation between the games as they're played. The separation of legacy general and legacy houserules is also uneeded I think. Many houserule-ish topics come up in general and the houserule forum has pretty low traffic.

After consolidating all that, maybe another forum for older edition discussions. I would happily participate but those editions predate me.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Oct 13, 2010)

I've participated in a few 1Ed and 2Ed themed threads in Legacy.  Yes, its 3.X heavy, but that's no real surprise, what with its status as being the most recently supplanted commercial version of the game.

So, personally, if a 1Ed/2Ed theme thread pops up *and it interests me*, I'll participate...but I can't see those warranting their own sub-fora.

ENWorld goes that way, and pretty soon we'll have a forum for OD&D (1974) in which diaglo just listens to the echo.


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## renau1g (Oct 13, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> ENWorld goes that way, and pretty soon we'll have a forum for OD&D (1974) in which diaglo just listens to the echo.




Maybe he could make sock-puppet accounts and then talk to himself


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## Dannyalcatraz (Oct 13, 2010)

That way lies madness...or Saturday Morning TV.


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## Aus_Snow (Oct 13, 2010)

Ahnehnois said:


> I suggest merging the two "legacy" forums with Pathfinder to make a "3.X General" forum. It seems strange to separate PF out; there isn't much separation between the games as they're played. The separation of legacy general and legacy houserules is also uneeded I think. Many houserule-ish topics come up in general and the houserule forum has pretty low traffic.



Indeed. It's entirely bass ackwards atm. 

Separate altered 3e from 3e, but [in theory anyway] lump in every (_considerably different_) earlier edition of D&D with it instead?

O. . . K. . .

It might be interesting to get some more perspectives from those actually _interested in_ earlier D&D, you know, _in the present_.


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## Merkuri (Oct 13, 2010)

I seem to recall that 3e and Pathfinder were one forum at one point and there were complaints about that.  I think those complaints revolved around the idea that the games were subtly different enough that somebody asking a question about 3e might get a bunch of entirely unhelpful responses about Pathfinder.

It makes sense to me to put them in the same forum, but I guess the 3e and Pathfinder fans thought otherwise.


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## pawsplay (Oct 13, 2010)

Merkuri said:


> I seem to recall that 3e and Pathfinder were one forum at one point and there were complaints about that.  I think those complaints revolved around the idea that the games were subtly different enough that somebody asking a question about 3e might get a bunch of entirely unhelpful responses about Pathfinder.
> 
> It makes sense to me to put them in the same forum, but I guess the 3e and Pathfinder fans thought otherwise.




Well, it helps me keep track of which rules-set I'm responding to. I think from a practical standpoint, Pathfinder does get enough traffic to justify its forum. I don't think it would be a huge deal if they were combined, but I like the separation.


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## Orius (Oct 13, 2010)

Two ways to fix this without adding a forum that won't get used:

Add thread prefixes to the Legacy forum to indicate edition: 1e, 2e, BECMI, 3.x.

Have the mods move threads that are clearly about classic D&D into the Legacy forum from General, which is where much of this discussion ends up.  Get enough threads move, it might "train" posters into using the Legacy forum for pre-3e discussion.


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