# The Problem Of Disney Star Wars



## Zardnaar (Dec 6, 2018)

This is a spin off of my other thread "Rate the Star Wars movies. 

 First things 1st this is not a dump on the Disney Star Wars at all costs. Overall they have been fairly consistent and they have had moments of greatness, I doubt they will ever topple The Empire Strikes Back/ Star Wars: A New Hope as the best Star Wars movies of all time. However there has been a bit of flak directed at The Last Jedi, the Han Solo movie, and to a lesser extent the new expanded universe. Starting off I'll cover TFA, TLJ, and the new EU. The rage directed at Solo I think is mostly a blowback about TLJ and the movie strictly speaking probably did not need to be made. Also apparently there was no master plan for an overall plot for episodes VII-IX and the original plan was 3 different directors. 

 The Force Awakens
 I quite liked this movie and left the movie theatre with a small buss which was missing for the prequels. I think it had two main things wrong with it

1. It was mostly a rehash of Episode IV. To be fair this may have been needed after the prequels. 
2. It did a fairly poor job of world building and left it to the new EU to flush out.

 Now the original trilogies did not do that much world building early on but they did not need to. The empire was evil and kind of an amalgamation of Nazi Germany and the USSR (notice the red, black and white colours used or the red of the Imperial Guard), along with Stormtroopers. In the late 70's this was all you needed and into the 80's you had President Reagan etc. When the old EU worked at its good bits was it answered questions left over from the originals such as Luke becoming a Jedi master, Han and Leias relationship, what happened to the Imperial fleet etc. The Last Jedi effectively reset most of those questions and created a whole heap of new ones even something as basic as "What is the First Order". On camera they are the bad guys but off camera they are a lot smaller than the old Galactic Empire. Even who was Snoke was a big one. A minor downside was Rey came across as a bit of a Mary Sue though. She could instantly fly the Falcon as good as Han (flying through asteroids/Imperial Star Destroyer). Additionally she beat a powerful Darksider who was trained while she had no training whatsoever which kind of flies in the face of the old and the new EU. I guess this was to show she was powerful but I'll follow this up with TLJ.

 The Last Jedi.
 If this was a stand alone movie it probably wouldn't be that bad. Its a sequel though. The main problem was I think after TFA generally positive reception along with Rogue One expectations were probably high. The reason I like RoTS over this is I thought it had better story telling and emotional moments (Vader and the Younglings). The overall plot of this movie was silly (a chase scene) that made little sense (that is what faster TIEs are for), and with the Casino planet sub plot that was totally pointless. Additionally they killed of Luke and Snoke probably 2 movies early and Rey is still a Mary Sue but the actress is good. With the Mary Sue thing in the originals Leia gets captured, she is a badass though, and she later gets wounded. In this movie they have her fly through space. In the originals Luke loses his hand and requires training while Han get dumped in carbonite and is blinded but her we have super Rey. In the grand scheme of things this is still probably minor. THey basically throw out a lot of left over plot points from TFA and the villains are all basically chumps. In TESB the rebels get their asses handed to them and Vader is unleashed and is a bigger bad ass than in Episode IV and its before episode VI. In TLJ Phasma is a chump, Hux is a chump, and Kylo Ren is made to look stupid by Luke who then dies. All the villains basically suck at being villains, Poe looks like an idiot, Finnn has the worst sub plot, they don't follow up on things like Rey picking up the lightsaber, they throw away her parentage mystery. And Snoke is also a chump. Sure Fett died like a chump as well but that was in Episode VI he at least got to be a badass in one movie. And we have super Leia and Mary Sue Rey who is supposed to be powerful I suppose along with Leia but is ultimately boring with a heap of characters heroes and villains you ultimately don't care about because they are boring chumps. 

 And now for the politically incorrect part. Apparently the majority of Star Wars fanbase is white males and going by a fan reactions only we may not be looking that good. Stupid trolls online are going to be stupid trolls. Sure some of the are misogynistic trolls and Kathleeen Kennedy did not help with a shot of here and some females wearing shirts with "The Force is Female" on them. In the old EU and the new the force is the force, no gender required but this feed back to how Rey has been written- at least the actor is doing a better job than the prequel Padme/Anakin ones.. She is not the 1st female Jedi/force user but male or female you need a compelling characters. Padme and Anakin from the original are not overly popular and its not because of their gender. Its because the characters/actors/the writing (take you pick) basically suck. If you read/play the games the old EU you might be familiar with Darth Treya, Zannah and the Dark Lady of the Sith Lumiya. On the light side of the force you have Bastila Shan, Jaina Solo, and Mara Jade who along side Thrawn was probably one of the most popular EU characters (and she married Luke). These female characters were interesting because of the way they were written, none of them were Mary Sues, none of them were damsels in distress (Mara saves Luke- in 1991). Even Admiral Daala initially was interesting (a female genius Admiral) but she became a joke because of the way she was written (she was a chump, Thrawn was not). Han and Leia had 3 kids in the old EU, the males died and Jaina became the Sword of the Jedi and after Luke was probably the most powerful Jedi in the universe. Even then she had to train with Boba Fett, she was not a Mary Sue and her brother Jacen was written more like Anakin from the prequels and he was the one who inherited the Skywalker whine. Jaina needed training, Jacen needed training, Luke, Leia, Mara all needed training (see the recurring theme here). Luke had plot immunity but even he had his ups and downs. Anakin into Vader jumps the gun and gets chopped up even though he was "more powerful" than Obi Wan. Ultimately the popular Star Wars characters (OT 3+ Lando, Mara, Thrawn, Vader etc) are interesting characters. Leave the comic relief to the Droids its what they are there for. 

 The New EU
 In 2014 Lucasfilm burned the old EU to the ground which I can kind of understand why if you want to make new movies. Big screen adaptions of Heir to the Empire and Dark Force rising may have been better received than the new movies though. Obviously this annoyed some people (my reaction was resigned, that being said I follow the new EU on Wookiepedia I don't give them money). The new EU so far has lacked the great moments the old EU had (Thrawn Trilogy, X-Wing books, Knight of the Old Republic) but it has also avoided the worst of the old EUIV (The Cyrstal Star, Children of the Jedi). It also lacks the great video games the old EU had and people are still modding some of those games an playing them now (D&D also has this problem). Its still early though and there was some dreck in the 1st 5 years of the old EU stuff (91-96). And there are alot of bright spots as well (Rgue One, Star Wars Rebels). However they have not learnt from the old EU either, the basic plotline of TFA is roughly the same as multiple stories from 1991-98. That basic plotline is "new imperial faction, new darksiders, new super weapon". They kinda figured this out back in 1998 and wrapped it up and moved on to the New Jedi Order which had its problems but got away from that basic plot. Even worst they went with the bigger is better idea and more of it (Star Killer base, Snokes Supremacy).  Which once again duplicates stuff 20+ years ago with the Galaxy Gun (1991), the Sun Crusher (blows up stars, 1994), and bigger and badder super Star Destroyers (multiple examples eg Eclipse and Sovereign class, the Knight Hammer). To put it into context they figured out this was a bad idea around the same time nu metal started to take off and Stone Cold Steve Austin was entering pop culture.Its bad because its repetitive, boring, predictable and you enter into a "can you top this" plotline. If they pull out a bigger badder, Starkiller Base II in episode IX I am not going to be happy especially if its under construction. 

 So that is basically it. I do not hard core hate the new Disney stuff mostly its just TLJ and I am mostly indifferent to it. By now its hard to come up with truly original Star Wars stuff (the old EU was really massive) but I would like the to keep the over the top silly stuff toned down a bit and give us characters and plotlines I care about. Star Wars has really all been about emotion and its the same in any movie whether the goal of that movie is to laugh, cry, or make you think. Bigger, badder, with boring characters that barely evolve and are semi invincible. One of the few things I did like like about The Last Jedi was the ending with the kid.


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## Ovinomancer (Dec 6, 2018)

Oh, so it IS time to argue about The Last Jedi, again.  Goody?


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## Shasarak (Dec 6, 2018)

I think that a Thrawn movie trilogy would have been awesome.

Maybe it is time to re-read them again.


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## ccs (Dec 6, 2018)

Zard, your rambling & need to use paragraphs.  Reading this was about as hard as EPs.VII & VIII were to watch.


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## Deset Gled (Dec 6, 2018)

Zardnaar said:


> First things 1st this is not a dump on the Disney Star Wars at all costs. ... I do not hard core hate the new Disney stuff mostly its just TLJ and I am mostly indifferent to it.




Look, man, I've got some bad news for you.  You've probably known this for awhile, and have tried to convince yourself it's not true.  But it's time to face the facts.  We can all see it; it's time for you to come clean with yourself.

You are not a Star Wars fan.

I'm sure you were once.  I've sure it was a big deal to you.  A big emotional investment.  A big time sink.  Possibly even a formative part of your journey into adulthood.  But as it stands right now, you simply aren't someone who likes Star Wars.  At all.

You've tried to claim that this isn't a dump on Star Wars.  It's totally and completely a 100% dump on Star Wars.  You claim to be indifferent to the new stuff, but the very fact that you would take the time to write this proves that you aren't.  And it's obvious that this is stuff you've been thinking about for a long time, not just some off-the-cuff ramblings about a movie you just saw.  Heck, in your last thread, I believe you gave 7 out of 10 movies a negative rating, including one of the original trilogy.

It's time to let go.  I know it's hard.  I've been there myself with franchises before, and I get that it's even harder to deal with now that there's new material coming out.  The important thing is that you can still be a nerd or a geek.  You can still go to cons.  You can even talk about how you used to be a fan.  You can keep those memories; they can still be good memories, and they can still make you happy.  But when people talk about the "fandom" or "people who like Star Wars", that's simply not who you are anymore.  Star Wars isn't you're thing.  And that's okay.  We're still here for you.

Maye I'm wrong, and I certainly can't tell you how to live your life.  But I really think it would do you a lot of good to find something new that you like.  Define yourself by the things that you actually enjoy _now_, not the things you enjoyed decades ago, or the things you hate.  Do it for yourself.  Trust me, you'll be happier when you do.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 6, 2018)

Deset Gled said:


> Look, man, I've got some bad news for you.  You've probably known this for awhile, and have tried to convince yourself it's not true.  But it's time to face the facts.  We can all see it; it's time for you to come clean with yourself.
> 
> You are not a Star Wars fan.
> 
> ...




 Thought I gave most of them good ratings, there is 1 Star Wars movie I actively dislike AotC) and 2 I am indifferent to (TPM and TLJ). Rogue One was great along with Star Wars Rebels. 

 The one thing I did give up on was the new EU not because it bad but after 20 odd years of the old EU I didn't want to go through it again.


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## delericho (Dec 6, 2018)

IMO, the problem with the Disney Star Wars is that, simply put, most of it just isn't very good. There are some gems ("Rogue One", "Rebels", and the Lego), but the movies haven't impressed.

Hopefully that will change.

(Of course, it's also worth considering that much of the pre-Disney stuff _also_ wasn't very good. One of the benefits of time is that it tends to preserve the good stuff and let the bad fall away.)


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## Zardnaar (Dec 6, 2018)

delericho said:


> IMO, the problem with the Disney Star Wars is that, simply put, most of it just isn't very good. There are some gems ("Rogue One", "Rebels", and the Lego), but the movies haven't impressed.
> 
> Hopefully that will change.
> 
> (Of course, it's also worth considering that much of the pre-Disney stuff _also_ wasn't very good. One of the benefits of time is that it tends to preserve the good stuff and let the bad fall away.)




  The new EU as I understand it is slightly better overall than the old one but lacks the best of it and big Star Wars moments. There is worse than Attack of the Clones in the old EU, I even own some of it.


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## delericho (Dec 6, 2018)

Zardnaar said:


> The new EU as I understand it is slightly better overall than the old one but lacks the best of it and big Star Wars moments.




I've mostly ignored the new EU (except for "Rebels", as mentioned). When they killed off the old version, they also killed any interest I had in reading their new take.



> There is worse than Attack of the Clones in the old EU, I even own some of it.




Agreed.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 6, 2018)

delericho said:


> I've mostly ignored the new EU (except for "Rebels", as mentioned). When they killed off the old version, they also killed any interest I had in reading their new take.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed.




 See they added Thrawn to Rebels. He is alive in the new EU it seems as of the end of Rebels. They're plugging a lot of the old EU back into the new one.

Darth Zannah (fan made).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S22dLMRBf3g

 Apparently the new Vader comics are really good, the old EU was kinda going downhill at the end (Fate of the Jedi series), although I liked the Legacy comics.


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## Jester David (Dec 6, 2018)

I love how Zard continually attacks TLJ for making Rey a "Mary Sue" and Phasma a "chump" when Rey was even more perfect in _Force Awakens_ and Phasma was even more of a chump.


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## billd91 (Dec 6, 2018)

Zardnaar said:


> The Last Jedi.
> If this was a stand alone movie it probably wouldn't be that bad. Its a sequel though. The main problem was I think after TFA generally positive reception along with Rogue One expectations were probably high. The reason I like RoTS over this is I thought it had better story telling and emotional moments (Vader and the Younglings). The overall plot of this movie was silly (a chase scene) that made little sense (that is what faster TIEs are for), and with the Casino planet sub plot that was totally pointless. Additionally they killed of Luke and Snoke probably 2 movies early and Rey is still a Mary Sue but the actress is good. With the Mary Sue thing in the originals Leia gets captured, she is a badass though, and she later gets wounded. In this movie they have her fly through space. In the originals Luke loses his hand and requires training while Han get dumped in carbonite and is blinded but her we have super Rey. In the grand scheme of things this is still probably minor. THey basically throw out a lot of left over plot points from TFA and the villains are all basically chumps. In TESB the rebels get their asses handed to them and Vader is unleashed and is a bigger bad ass than in Episode IV and its before episode VI. In TLJ Phasma is a chump, Hux is a chump, and Kylo Ren is made to look stupid by Luke who then dies. All the villains basically suck at being villains, Poe looks like an idiot, Finnn has the worst sub plot, they don't follow up on things like Rey picking up the lightsaber, they throw away her parentage mystery. And Snoke is also a chump. Sure Fett died like a chump as well but that was in Episode VI he at least got to be a badass in one movie. And we have super Leia and Mary Sue Rey who is supposed to be powerful I suppose along with Leia but is ultimately boring with a heap of characters heroes and villains you ultimately don't care about because they are boring chumps.
> 
> And now for the politically incorrect part. Apparently the majority of Star Wars fanbase is white males and going by a fan reactions only we may not be looking that good. Stupid trolls online are going to be stupid trolls. Sure some of the are misogynistic trolls and Kathleeen Kennedy did not help with a shot of here and some females wearing shirts with "The Force is Female" on them. In the old EU and the new the force is the force, no gender required but this feed back to how Rey has been written- at least the actor is doing a better job than the prequel Padme/Anakin ones.. She is not the 1st female Jedi/force user but male or female you need a compelling characters. Padme and Anakin from the original are not overly popular and its not because of their gender. Its because the characters/actors/the writing (take you pick) basically suck. If you read/play the games the old EU you might be familiar with Darth Treya, Zannah and the Dark Lady of the Sith Lumiya. On the light side of the force you have Bastila Shan, Jaina Solo, and Mara Jade who along side Thrawn was probably one of the most popular EU characters (and she married Luke). These female characters were interesting because of the way they were written, none of them were Mary Sues, none of them were damsels in distress (Mara saves Luke- in 1991). Even Admiral Daala initially was interesting (a female genius Admiral) but she became a joke because of the way she was written (she was a chump, Thrawn was not). Han and Leia had 3 kids in the old EU, the males died and Jaina became the Sword of the Jedi and after Luke was probably the most powerful Jedi in the universe. Even then she had to train with Boba Fett, she was not a Mary Sue and her brother Jacen was written more like Anakin from the prequels and he was the one who inherited the Skywalker whine. Jaina needed training, Jacen needed training, Luke, Leia, Mara all needed training (see the recurring theme here). Luke had plot immunity but even he had his ups and downs. Anakin into Vader jumps the gun and gets chopped up even though he was "more powerful" than Obi Wan. Ultimately the popular Star Wars characters (OT 3+ Lando, Mara, Thrawn, Vader etc) are interesting characters. Leave the comic relief to the Droids its what they are there for.




Time to burn this "Mary Sue" horse crap down right now. Rey is no more Mary Sue than Luke ("I destroyed the Death Star in my first outing in a sophisticated, high-performance fighter/bomber") was a Gary Stu in A New Hope and a heck of a lot less than Anakin was in Phantom Menace. This is all just bound up in the "a chick is the Force-using star of the new trilogy instead of a guy" backlash that damns her for the stuff her male analogs in previous trilogies got away with.


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## Jester David (Dec 6, 2018)

I also wonder how many times the detractors of _The Last Jedi_ have seen the movie, and if their opinion is based on a single theatre showing...


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## Mallus (Dec 6, 2018)

Ovinomancer said:


> Oh, so it IS time to argue about The Last Jedi, again.  Goody?



I refused to take the bait the other night, but that's probably because I was drinking tea. Maybe I'll crack open the cask strength bourbon I bought for the holidays tonight!


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## Mallus (Dec 6, 2018)

But for now, a list of things wrong with the Disney Star Wars movies:

1. The Force Awakes - very derivative of the original Star Wars.
2. The Last Jedi - Canto Bight sequence needs punching up or trimming. 

Done!


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## delericho (Dec 6, 2018)

Jester David said:


> I also wonder how many times the detractors of _The Last Jedi_ have seen the movie, and if their opinion is based on a single theatre showing...




Three times. Each time it has gone down in my estimation. (The same is true of TFA, incidentally, though that's dropping from a higher base.)


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## Jester David (Dec 6, 2018)

I’m always surprised by how widespread some of _The Last Jedi_ talking points are despite most being silly. 

*How did Rey know how to fly the Falcon? *
Same correspondence course Luke took to learn how to fly an X-Wing I imagine.

*How could she beat Ren without training? *
We saw her kick two guys’ asses on Jakku. Which was more training that farmboy Luke got, who spent an hour training with Ben and a long weekend with Yoda lifting rocks. Also, Ren took a boltcaster shot to the side, and we know those have enough force to knock a stormtrooper flying. 

*Why did it drop Rey’s parentage storyline? *
My response is “what storyline?” Her parents aren’t even mentioned in TFA. All we know is she was abandoned and the people who did were not coming back. The “Rey’s parents” question is pure fan speculation that exists solely because _The Empire Strikes Back_ had a parentage twist.
Why does the new film have to mimic the surprising twist of a different trilogy? Isn’t that the laziest possible thing they could have done?

*Why did they drop the Snoke storyline? *
Because he was a lame Emperor ripoff. We knew two things about Snoke: his title and proper name. Which was MORE details than the Emperor received in the original trilogy. The villain we care about is Ren. Snoke was redundant to the plot, and time spent fleshing him out would be better served with ANY of the other characters.

*Canto Bight was a pointless. *
Hey, you know what else was pointless? The whole Kanjiklub bit, and the following Rathtar chase. 
And Starkiller base. Finn would have gone after Rey anyway, the Resistance wouldn’t want a Ren finding Skywalker, and Han wanted to talk to Ben. That whole bit could have just been on Ren’s Star Destroyer and was superfluous. 

*The new trilogy is suuuuuper feminist. *
But is it? Is it *really*?? Rey is the new hero, but are there significantly more female roles? Do the new movies even pass the Bechdel test? (They do, but only barely. Rey has one brief scene with Maz Kanata in TFA and Leia briefly talks about the Resistance to Holdo AFTER discussing Poe.)
Is flopping the gender of the primary protagonist *really* all it takes to be distractingly feminist?


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## Zardnaar (Dec 6, 2018)

billd91 said:


> Time to burn this "Mary Sue" horse crap down right now. Rey is no more Mary Sue than Luke ("I destroyed the Death Star in my first outing in a sophisticated, high-performance fighter/bomber") was a Gary Stu in A New Hope and a heck of a lot less than Anakin was in Phantom Menace. This is all just bound up in the "a chick is the Force-using star of the new trilogy instead of a guy" backlash that damns her for the stuff her male analogs in previous trilogies got away with.




 Luke got some training, Rey didn't. Kinda like how the USA used truck components in the Sherman tank, if you could drive a Truck you could drive a Sherman almost. He even mentions the T-16 in the movie so you don't need a massive amount of explanation or logic. The OT heroes also got messed up, that is the difference Luke had his hand chopped off, Leia was wounded and captured, Han got chucked in carbonite and blinded. She never used a lightsaber before, picked one up and defeated Kylo Ren a trained dark jedi. And yet in the prequels we see Jedi trained from very young age, Vader was old and later he murders the younglings.

 Han had a hard life but was presented as a pilot from the get go and Leia presumably had royal self defence training and llater oin in the EU she also needed training and was weaker than say Luke, Mara and her children as she devoted less time to it due to being a full time politician. Her daughter Jaina was trained right from the get go and later in life trained with Boba Fett for dirty fighting.

 That is the difference.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 6, 2018)

Jester David said:


> I love how Zard continually attacks TLJ for making Rey a "Mary Sue" and Phasma a "chump" when Rey was even more perfect in _Force Awakens_ and Phasma was even more of a chump.




 Luke trained her at least and I did comment on how Phasma was a chump, along with Hux, Snoke etc.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 6, 2018)

Jester David said:


> I’m always surprised by how widespread some of _The Last Jedi_ talking points are despite most being silly.
> 
> *How did Rey know how to fly the Falcon? *
> Same correspondence course Luke took to learn how to fly an X-Wing I imagine.
> ...




Some of those were quite important plot lines from TFA though.

 Rey being female has very little to do with it, plenty of female Jedi in the older EU and Jaina for example was a lot more interesting than her brother (he had the Skywalker whine), Mara was probably the 2nd most popular EU characters (after Thrawn).

 TLJ was not an out right awful movie (we have AotC for that), but t should have been better IMHO both because Disney made 2 good Star Wars movies but as I said expectations were high. Its hard to relate to the characters though- the villains are chumps, 2/3 are not very interesting, Rey is powerful (to powerful) and kind of boring because of it and saddled with a recycled back ground (desert orphan like Luke). Hell Jedi survivor from a ocean planet subverts ye olde star wars tropes would have worked. 

 I eman they cold have just had her be a survivor of Kylos Jedi massacre or someone from the new Jedi spirited her away. Lucasfilm kinda knows they messed up they have sidelined Kathleen Kennedy and brought back JJ Abrams, the original plan was 3 different directors but no overall plotline or guidelines to have those 3 directors have the same goal in mind.


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## billd91 (Dec 6, 2018)

Zardnaar said:


> Luke got some training, Rey didn't. Kinda like how the USA used truck components in the Sherman tank, if you could drive a Truck you could drive a Sherman almost. He even mentions the T-16 in the movie so you don't need a massive amount of explanation or logic. The OT heroes also got messed up, that is the difference Luke had his hand chopped off, Leia was wounded and captured, Han got chucked in carbonite and blinded. She never used a lightsaber before, picked one up and defeated Kylo Ren a trained dark jedi. And yet in the prequels we see Jedi trained from very young age, Vader was old and later he murders the younglings.
> 
> Han had a hard life but was presented as a pilot from the get go and Leia presumably had royal self defence training and llater oin in the EU she also needed training and was weaker than say Luke, Mara and her children as she devoted less time to it due to being a full time politician. Her daughter Jaina was trained right from the get go and later in life trained with Boba Fett for dirty fighting.
> 
> That is the difference.




What training? Luke shows up at the rebel base, they put him in a top-of-the-line star fighter. And he has no significant mishaps - a big contrast with Rey's sloppy flying.
Rey, whose scrappiness with a staff we've already seen (by your Luke logic, we know she's had some training or can assume some skill), manages to hold off and get a couple of licks in on a *badly wounded* dark jedi, not a fresh one. 

And I don't really know why you're bringing up Han and Leia's problems from the original trilogy - it's not like we aren't seeing similar things happen to Finn and Poe.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 6, 2018)

billd91 said:


> What training? Luke shows up at the rebel base, they put him in a top-of-the-line star fighter. And he has no significant mishaps - a big contrast with Rey's sloppy flying.
> Rey, whose scrappiness with a staff we've already seen (by your Luke logic, we know she's had some training or can assume some skill), manages to hold off and get a couple of licks in on a *badly wounded* dark jedi, not a fresh one.
> 
> And I don't really know why you're bringing up Han and Leia's problems from the original trilogy - it's not like we aren't seeing similar things happen to Finn and Poe.




 Obi Wan trained Luke, and Luke could fly the T-16 and it was mentioned in the movie so it was established he had some piloting skills already. Jumping in the Falcon and flying it is not such a big deal its probably similar to driving a car now. Flying it through a ruined Star Destroyer in RPG terms though is similar to the Death Star trench run, the Hoth Asteroid field, of flying into the DS II- its not something a rookie pilot would generally attempt in the Star Wars universe. Yes I know they burned down the old EU but that might be part of the problem you don't really erase the expectations and tropes of it and they are busy plugging parts of it back in often kinda in a bad way (new Thrawn is good, but not as good as old Thrawn). 

 Why train for years to be a Jedi- just dump your kid on a desert planet seems to work better.


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## Umbran (Dec 6, 2018)

Zardnaar said:


> Why train for years to be a Jedi- just dump your kid on a desert planet seems to work better.




I think that there is sufficient evidence that there's a force-related piloting ability - Anakin, Luke, and Rey all show signs of it.  They are the only uncannily good flyers we've seen.


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## billd91 (Dec 6, 2018)

Obi Wan trained Luke for, what? The length of time it took Han to finish his work in the cockpit, walk back to the common area, have a conversation, and then head back as they were nearing Alderaan? Whole lot of training there. It lasted all of a couple of minutes.


But you actually do highlight something kind of important - there's a vast disconnect between the original trilogy and the current trilogy.... compared to the prequels. Both the original and current trilogy make do with Force-sensitive adults and turn them into big, damn heroes. The prequels in contrast ultimately serve to illustrate how weak the Jedi institutional approach was.


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## billd91 (Dec 6, 2018)

Umbran said:


> I think that there is sufficient evidence that there's a force-related piloting ability - Anakin, Luke, and Rey all show signs of it.  They are the only uncannily good flyers we've seen.




Han's piloting should qualify. His flying around the big asteroid despite not knowing the terrain was pretty darn uncanny.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 6, 2018)

billd91 said:


> Obi Wan trained Luke for, what? The length of time it took Han to finish his work in the cockpit, walk back to the common area, have a conversation, and then head back as they were nearing Alderaan? Whole lot of training there. It lasted all of a couple of minutes.
> 
> 
> But you actually do highlight something kind of important - there's a vast disconnect between the original trilogy and the current trilogy.... compared to the prequels. Both the original and current trilogy make do with Force-sensitive adults and turn them into big, damn heroes. The prequels in contrast ultimately serve to illustrate how weak the Jedi institutional approach was.




Onscreen yes, off screen it was several hours but he taught him the basics of the Jedi code and how to see with the force. He was a prodigy obviously and picked up several force powers. He also got his ass handed to him in ESB. Rey is overpowered by comparison with the in universe Skywalker/chosen one thing. The Skywalker bloodline thing doesn't need to be the be all and end all of Jedi in the Star Wars universe but if you are going to subvert it you probably need a good reasons for it as in the new canon and old it is heavily implied that natural talent is inherited and if your parents are both Jedi/Sith and powerful ones you will be a powerful force user (the Skywalker kids in the old EU, other Sith/Jedi children).

 Lukes kid Ben kind of had "child of destiny" stamped all over him, both parents were Jedi masters. Jaina Solo (Hans kid) had a similar deal. Destiny being a big Star Wars trope.


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## Shasarak (Dec 6, 2018)

billd91 said:


> What training? Luke shows up at the rebel base, they put him in a top-of-the-line star fighter. And he has no significant mishaps - a big contrast with Rey's sloppy flying.
> Rey, whose scrappiness with a staff we've already seen (by your Luke logic, we know she's had some training or can assume some skill), manages to hold off and get a couple of licks in on a *badly wounded* dark jedi, not a fresh one.




There are so many problems with TFA but consider for a second that it took Luke three movies before he could successfully go up against another Jedi.

I think that if they had the decency of at least trying to include a training montage for Rey then she would not be such a Mary Sue.  But really Rey is the least of TFA problems when you consider the plot holes that you could fly a ship through in hyperspace.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 6, 2018)

Shasarak said:


> There are so many problems with TFA but consider for a second that it took Luke three movies before he could successfully go up against another Jedi.
> 
> I think that if they had the decency of at least trying to include a training montage for Rey then she would not be such a Mary Sue.  But really Rey is the least of TFA problems when you consider the plot holes that you could fly a ship through in hyperspace.




 And the other Jedi wasn't trying to kill him they were trying to turn him. Luke ran from Vader once Obi Wan was struck down, and lost in ESB. 

 One thing I did like about Snoke getting killed was Kylos thoughts did not betray him. This has been used in other sci fi and the old Star Wars. The Jedi/Sith can only sense the surface thoughts and emotions. They set Kylo up needing more training at the end of TFA, and basically threw Snoke away but probably a movie to early.


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## doctorbadwolf (Dec 6, 2018)

Jester David said:


> I love how Zard continually attacks TLJ for making Rey a "Mary Sue" and Phasma a "chump" when Rey was even more perfect in _Force Awakens_ and Phasma was even more of a chump.



I love Phasma, bc she isn't a chump, she's a self-serving villain. She probably doesn't give a damn about the 1st Order to begin with. THey should have left in the deleted scene where she shoots her own troops because Finn told them about how she sold out the Starkiller in order to have a chance at survival. I love seeing a villain who will sacrifice anyone and anything, for themselves. None of this "everyone is a hero in their own mind" crap. Some villains just don't care about anyone else. 



Zardnaar said:


> Luke got some training, Rey didn't. Kinda like how the USA used truck components in the Sherman tank, if you could drive a Truck you could drive a Sherman almost. He even mentions the T-16 in the movie so you don't need a massive amount of explanation or logic. The OT heroes also got messed up, that is the difference Luke had his hand chopped off, Leia was wounded and captured, Han got chucked in carbonite and blinded. She never used a lightsaber before, picked one up and defeated Kylo Ren a trained dark jedi.



She didn't defeat Kylo, she held him off and got a decent strike in. After he was severely injured. 
And she literally already was shown to be a competent fighter. 



billd91 said:


> What training? Luke shows up at the rebel base, they put him in a top-of-the-line star fighter. And he has no significant mishaps - a big contrast with Rey's sloppy flying.
> Rey, whose scrappiness with a staff we've already seen (by your Luke logic, we know she's had some training or can assume some skill), manages to hold off and get a couple of licks in on a *badly wounded* dark jedi, not a fresh one.
> 
> And I don't really know why you're bringing up Han and Leia's problems from the original trilogy - it's not like we aren't seeing similar things happen to Finn and Poe.



Luke is much more of a mary sue than Rey, insofar as either of them are, further insofar as the term even has any value. 

It's so weird to see these same bunk points over and over and over again. 



Umbran said:


> I think that there is sufficient evidence that there's a force-related piloting ability - Anakin, Luke, and Rey all show signs of it.  They are the only uncannily good flyers we've seen.




Has is uncanny, I'd argue. Especially in hyperspace navigation. But yeah, the force users seems to able to just, fly stuff real good with no training. 

Also, she already is familiar _with that ship_, so we don't even need to speculate that she has the force piloting ability to make sense of her flying it. She just has to be a good pilot, with force tuned reflexes. She is so familiar with the ship, that she sees it as a piece of junk due to the modifications that have been made to it. 


Also, people always bring up this idea that Leia "flies" in TLJ...what? No, she very obviously doesn't. She uses the Force to pull on the ship, just like Luke pulling a lightsaber to his hand (with no training in moving things with his mind) in Empire. Since she and the ship are both in 0 gravity, the force needed is incredibly small. THe Clone Wars cartoon also features a force user surviving in space for a bit, in one of the first episodes, if not _the_ first. 

IT's just wild to me how many of the endlessly repeated arguments against TLJ are easily debunked, and yet keep popping up.


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## Shasarak (Dec 6, 2018)

Zardnaar said:


> And the other Jedi wasn't trying to kill him they were trying to turn him. Luke ran from Vader once Obi Wan was struck down, and lost in ESB.




Exactly, Luke did not even use a Lightsaber in Starwars except in practice against a drone.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 6, 2018)

doctorbadwolf said:


> I love Phasma, bc she isn't a chump, she's a self-serving villain. She probably doesn't give a damn about the 1st Order to begin with. THey should have left in the deleted scene where she shoots her own troops because Finn told them about how she sold out the Starkiller in order to have a chance at survival. I love seeing a villain who will sacrifice anyone and anything, for themselves. None of this "everyone is a hero in their own mind" crap. Some villains just don't care about anyone else.
> 
> 
> She didn't defeat Kylo, she held him off and got a decent strike in. After he was severely injured.
> ...




Using the force to survive in space is fine, its how it was done. Leia looked like she was flying through space.

 Also remember if some of thee concerns were not valid why was Solo a flop, why are they bringing back JJ Abrams, why have they sidelined Kathleen Kennedy, why has Rian Johnson semi apologised on twitter. They are in damage control. Solo lost money, they canceld all the other side project movies, Rians trilogy is up in the air. TLJ made almost half the amount TFA did and barely more than Rogue One where the expectations of Rogue One were a lot lower than a main story film. Its not the actors fault at all more the writers, directors and the other people involved. 

 Sure some people probably loved TLJ movies are inherently subjective but JJ Abrams was not supposed to do episode IX originally.


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## Shasarak (Dec 6, 2018)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Also, people always bring up this idea that Leia "flies" in TLJ...what? No, she very obviously doesn't. She uses the Force to pull on the ship, just like Luke pulling a lightsaber to his hand (with no training in moving things with his mind) in Empire. Since she and the ship are both in 0 gravity, the force needed is incredibly small. THe Clone Wars cartoon also features a force user surviving in space for a bit, in one of the first episodes, if not _the_ first.




It is probably worse then that if the ship is also accelerating away from her after she gets blown out into space.  Like trying to pull yourself back into a moving car if you get thrown out of it.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 6, 2018)

Shasarak said:


> Exactly, Luke did not even use a Lightsaber in Starwars except in practice against a drone.




Yup its called "character development" and its an issue in the new movies. Hell Rogue One arguably did a better job of it. Not everyone needs a back story but if you are gonna pull out a lightsaber and use it well generally you should be a Jedi Knight or at least a padawan. Luke was clumsy with it along with Han who used it as a tool in ESB. 

 And being trained is a big thing in the OT, new cannon, prequel trilogy, the RPGs, the old EU. Obviously Sidious and Mace Windu don't need to be trained but its implied with Jedi Master and Sith Lord titles. You also have to train as Revan in KoToR. Obviously they wanted to make Rey heroic and powerful etc but she has a lot of the same problems Elminster and Drizzt have (they're kinda boring).

 Also bigger and better isn't always beter (Star Killer Base, Rey> Luke by a lot respective to their development, (Yoda being Sonic the Hedgehog). If its to unbelievable even in a universe like Star Wars it just comes across as OP/stupid/lame etc.


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## Umbran (Dec 6, 2018)

billd91 said:


> Han's piloting should qualify. His flying around the big asteroid despite not knowing the terrain was pretty darn uncanny.




He isn't uncanny, because he has a career's worth of training to get to be that good a pilot.  As opposed to Rey, who as far as we know has only ever flown speeder-type vehicles, or young Anakin, who was flipping 9 years old or something.


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## Umbran (Dec 6, 2018)

billd91 said:


> But you actually do highlight something kind of important - there's a vast disconnect between the original trilogy and the current trilogy.... compared to the prequels. Both the original and current trilogy make do with Force-sensitive adults and turn them into big, damn heroes. The prequels in contrast ultimately serve to illustrate how weak the Jedi institutional approach was.




Note that, by and large, the disconnect is only in rate of gain.  Luke and Rey don't display huge abilities you can't imagine, say, Obi Wan being able to use.  The real difference is *how fast* they get those powers.  In the prequels, a Jedi gets years and years of training to develop their powers.  In the original and current trilogy, powers manifest over the course of days.  

In the tradition of Stan Lee, I offer a "No-Prize" explanation:  Luke and Rey are drinking from a fire hose.

In the prequels, we have a large Jedi order of Force users.  They all draw on the same source of power, and it supports them just fine.  Prequel Jedi are like... washing dishes in the kitchen sink.

Luke and Rey, however, live in a time with very few Force users.  The source of power is largely untapped, and they get to draw on *all of it*.  They get to use a pressure washer for the same tasks.  To start with, this looks really impressive, but there is little understanding, knowledge, control or finesse to it, which is why Luke can't give Vader a beat-down in ESB.  Vader's had a lifetime of training, so the fire hose isn't a direct threat.

In addition, the Jedi we see in the prequels are all about *control*.  The first thing those Jedi kids learn is probably how to *not* manifest power, to prevent accident and harm.  The years of training are then, bit by bit, revealing how to use those powers safely and with finesse.  Luke and Rey don't have never been taught how to not manifest their power - when it comes, it comes full bore, without restraint.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 6, 2018)

Umbran said:


> He isn't uncanny, because he has a career's worth of training to get to be that good a pilot.  As opposed to Rey, who as far as we know has only ever flown speeder-type vehicles, or young Anakin, who was flipping 9 years old or something.




 They also found Han in a dive bar where pilots hang out and he was boasting about how good he was. Its basically established that he is a pilot and supposedly a good one. Rey being good with a staff is not an issue at all and I liked that scene. 

 The OTs are a lot more restrained- Luke, the lightsaber duel choreography (cf Yoda and Mustafar duel).


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## Jester David (Dec 6, 2018)

Zardnaar said:


> TLJ was not an out right awful movie (we have AotC for that),
> ...
> Rey is powerful (to powerful) and kind of boring because of it and saddled with a recycled back ground (desert orphan like Luke).



Which was TFA, and not TLJ. 



Zardnaar said:


> I eman they cold have just had her be a survivor of Kylos Jedi massacre or someone from the new Jedi spirited her away.



Why? 
Why can't she just be some nobody? Why did she need some special past? 
She was abandoned when she was like 5. It's not she would have remembered much had she been Luke's student.

What was Obi-Wan before he was a Jedi? Who were Qui-Gon Jinn's parents?
We don't know. It doesn't matter. 



Zardnaar said:


> Lucasfilm kinda knows they messed up they have sidelined Kathleen Kennedy and brought back JJ Abrams, the original plan was 3 different directors but no overall plotline or guidelines to have those 3 directors have the same goal in mind.



1) Kathleen Kennedy's contract was renewed in late September of this year. They're not sidelining her.
2) J.J. Abrams was hired for Episode IX in mid-September 2017, three months BEFORE _The Last Jedi_ premiered. 
3) Rian Johnson remains in charge of overseeing a new trilogy of films, so Lucasarts is happy with his work.

Yeah, it was probably a mistake not to have an overall plan for the trilogy before they started. 
Oh well. It's not like the original trilogy had a plan. Lucas made up a TONNE of stuff as he went along.


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## Jester David (Dec 6, 2018)

Umbran said:


> Note that, by and large, the disconnect is only in rate of gain.  Luke and Rey don't display huge abilities you can't imagine, say, Obi Wan being able to use.  The real difference is *how fast* they get those powers.  In the prequels, a Jedi gets years and years of training to develop their powers.  In the original and current trilogy, powers manifest over the course of days.
> 
> In the tradition of Stan Lee, I offer a "No-Prize" explanation:  Luke and Rey are drinking from a fire hose.
> 
> ...



The best argument I’ve heard is that being a Force user requires very little training. The Jedi begins training at such a young age not because they need training in using the Force, but in training to be a Jedi. The training in detachment and general monastic lifestyle. Control over emotions. Restraint. 
Basically indoctrinating children so they don’t fall to the Dark Side.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 6, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Which was TFA, and not TLJ.
> 
> 
> Why?
> ...




 Obi Wan and Qui-Gon-Jinn were Jedi Masters when they originally appeared. They didn't need to be trained like how it was established Han was already a good pilot. 

 The characters don't always nee d a back ground of course, had they made a new Star Wars movie with a Jedi Knight protagonist of course you would not need an explanation. If you're a Jedi Knight its kind of already established you're a badass. 

 Using another example Hulk Hogan in the 80's, Stone Cold Steve Austin in the 90's. One was booked as a superhero, the other was different. 

 Different is fine, different is good just don't muck it up. TLJ was not the worst Star Wars movie and if it existed all by itself it might even be a decent movie. Its a sequel though that threw out a lot of logic that universe had. No ones complaining about Jyn Erso because the movie was great, it made sense in that universe, the character was interesting, and it all worked well.


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## Jester David (Dec 6, 2018)

Zardnaar said:


> Its a sequel though that threw out a lot of logic that universe had.



Do we *really* need to start bringing up all the complete nonsensical illogic that was in every other Star Wars movie prior?


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## doctorbadwolf (Dec 6, 2018)

Solo didn’t do that well because they forced a 1/yr release schedule, rushed Solo out to theaters, and bc of its merits as a movie. 

Meanwhile TLJ itself did just fine. Most fans like or love it.


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## Eltab (Dec 7, 2018)

billd91 said:


> Han's piloting should qualify. His flying around the big asteroid despite not knowing the terrain was pretty darn uncanny.



IMHO (I may be reading too much into some details*) Han is an untrained Force adept.  The famous "Solo luck" is him unconsciously tugging at probabilities to get better-than-average results.  The Force gives him a leg up at piloting, plus made a career of Pilot.  He had practice in the Falcon before the first movie happened, and in a few novels he was a fighter pilot for a while before he hooked up with the Falcon.

* Han "There isn't some all-powerful Force guiding MY destiny"  Obi-Wan -smothers grin under sleeve-


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## Umbran (Dec 7, 2018)

Eltab said:


> IMHO (I may be reading too much into some details*) Han is an untrained Force adept.




In the old WEG Star Wars game, the answer was simple - even those who didn't outright use the Force could spend a Force Point to double the number of dice they were rolling.  Rolling 30d6 was not unheard of in that game.

More important, we must remember, we aren't looking at a real world.  Or, at least, not *our* real world.  We are looking at a genre world.  And a normal human piloting that well is *in genre* for Space Opera, which generally celebrates competence.

Heck, if we are getting really picky, we might say, "Well, no human could do that!"  Do you realize that Han Solo isn't human?  At least, not terrestrial _Homo sapiens sapiens_. This is a long, long time ago, _in a galaxy far, far away_.  He's _not from Earth_!  Goodness only knows what his reaction time and hand-eye coordination are like, compared to ours!

Which is to say, this is Space Opera.  Don't think about it *too* hard.  It is about morals and choices, not about how much training one *actually* needs to do a particular thing.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 7, 2018)

Umbran said:


> In the old WEG Star Wars game, the answer was simple - even those who didn't outright use the Force could spend a Force Point to double the number of dice they were rolling.  Rolling 30d6 was not unheard of in that game.
> 
> More important, we must remember, we aren't looking at a real world.  Or, at least, not *our* real world.  We are looking at a genre world.  And a normal human piloting that well is *in genre* for Space Opera, which generally celebrates competence.
> 
> ...




 We still play D6 on occasion and I have a shelf of 40 odd books for it. hasn't aged to bad. I have a rough plotline for e new game set eithe rin the new timeline or the old EU involving the Sith Sisterhood via Darth Mauls secret apprentice since the male Sith keep screwing it up. Recycle some plot threads from SWSE The unknown Regions and the Rakata hiding out there.


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## Istbor (Dec 7, 2018)

Yeah... I never really saw the whole Mary Sue thing. The force just makes you... good at stuff. That was the whole point behind it, you were availed insight and you could use this to enhance your reaction time and reflexes. It would help you understand the denizens of the galaxy better, and allow you to sense things a normal person could not. 

They were children of destiny, they should be extra-ordinary, both Rey and Luke. 

I also agree with the hose theory.  The more you have pulling at the force, the less effect each individual can draw upon.  Obviously experience and natural talent still play big roles, and one could argue, destiny as well.

Edited for grammatical errors.


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## doctorbadwolf (Dec 7, 2018)

Istbor said:


> Yeah... I never really saw the whole Mary Sue thing. The force just makes you... good at stuff. That was the whole point behind it, you were availed insight and you could use this to enhance your reaction time and reflexes. It would help you understand the denizens of the galaxy better, and allow you to sense things a normal person could not.
> 
> They were children of destiny, they should be extra-ordinary, both Rey and Luke.
> 
> ...




My quibble with the hose theory is that I don't think that Anakin is less powerful than Luke or Rey, and there are thousands of Jedi when Anakin is still Anakin.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 7, 2018)

doctorbadwolf said:


> My quibble with the hose theory is that I don't think that Anakin is less powerful than Luke or Rey, and there are thousands of Jedi when Anakin is still Anakin.




Its more of a Sith theory, the less Darksiders there are the more powerful they are.

 Its doesn't seem to matter, it was mostly just easier to hide. Some of the ancient Sith were on par with Palpatine and Vader.


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## doctorbadwolf (Dec 7, 2018)

Zardnaar said:


> Its more of a Sith theory, the less Darksiders there are the more powerful they are.
> 
> Its doesn't seem to matter, it was mostly just easier to hide. Some of the ancient Sith were on par with Palpatine and Vader.




Yeah, I prefer to ignore the EU whenever possible. Especially the stuff on the Sith. Way too many attempts to make them sympathetic, way too much weird lore that doesn't make sense. 

I like a lot of the early WEG Star Wars roleplaying supplements, like the Galaxy Guides, and a decent amount of what was published in the Saga Edition books, but trying to keep track of the EU as a whole is just...not worth it, IMO.


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## Mercurius (Dec 7, 2018)

The biggest problem with Disney Star Wars, in my opinion, is that they lack George Lucas' visionary imagination. The original trilogy was truly visionary. The prequels, while crappy in other ways (mostly around Anakin's actors, lack of romantic chemistry, annoying details like the Fetts from downunda, Jar-Jar Binks, etc), still had the Lucas touch for world-building. They still felt like Star Wars, if the equivalent of a rock bands later albums that aren't as good anymore and lack the vitality of their youth, but still feel like the same band.

_*The Force Awakens*_ was a fun movie, but to me it felt like the film version of fanfic. It didn't feel like Star Wars, but a fan's take on Star Wars. It felt over-produced, like it was the result of an AI algorithm assessing what people want out of Star Wars in today's cultural context. Still, it was overall it was enjoyable.

_*Rogue One*_ was well done and also fun, although it didn't have the mythic quality of the Lucas films. But it did what it intended to do quite well.

As for _*The Last Jedi*_, I left the theater with the thought: "That was a bad movie, I didn't enjoy that very much." It was the first time I watched a Star Wars film and actually was glad when it was over. But I won't go into details, because it seems that any criticism of this film is automatically interpreted as based on some combination of misogyny, racism, nerdrage, alt-rightism, etc. 

I will say that one thing that bothers me that I don't hear mentioned is the under-usage of Oscar Isaac, who in my mind is one of the best actors of his generation. He really could have been the Han Solo of these films, but seems too...tepid? It is almost like the directors said to him, "We kind of want the handsome, roguish thing like Han Solo, but don't be too roguish." I'm not saying he should try to be Harrison Ford, but he should certainly be Oscar Isaac. Maybe more of a melancholic brooder.

_*Solo*_ was OK and probably overly maligned. I liked it better than TLJ. But the problem is not as much that it was a bad movie, it wasn't, but that it continued the process of "fanfication" of Star Wars. It didn't feel like the "real" Han Solo, perhaps because the actor didn't quite play him edgy enough.

One more thing. Disney Star Wars has crappy villains. I love Adam Driver in Indie films (e.g. _Paterson, What if? _etc) and he made _Girls_ watchable, but he is terribly miscast and I can't shake the Darth Emo nickname. In fact, his best moment as Kylo Ren was in that SNL skit. Snoke was just a pale mockery of Palpatine. Compare them to Darth Vader, arguably the greatest film villain of all time (do you remember his sheer presence when you were a kid?!), and the truly malevolent Emperor - not to mention secondary villains like Jabba, Boba Fett and the other bounty hunters, etc.


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## dragoner (Dec 7, 2018)

I've liked Star Wars since I was a kid, seeing the first one in the theater way back when, though I have to say the oeuvre is done, it's not anyone's fault. Maybe other one's can be done, I thought Rogue One was great as a standalone film. Nevertheless, sci-fi has moved on since the original production, as well as nothing will get back to the feeling of the original, the writing is going to be flat because there isn't much else to say about the franchise, it's reached the end of it's lifespan for the most part.


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## Istbor (Dec 7, 2018)

Mercurius said:


> One more thing. Disney Star Wars has crappy villains. I love Adam Driver in Indie films (e.g. _Paterson, What if? _etc) and he made _Girls_ watchable, but he is terribly miscast and I can't shake the Darth Emo nickname. In fact, his best moment as Kylo Ren was in that SNL skit. Snoke was just a pale mockery of Palpatine. Compare them to Darth Vader, arguably the greatest film villain of all time (do you remember his sheer presence when you were a kid?!), and the truly malevolent Emperor - not to mention secondary villains like Jabba, Boba Fett and the other bounty hunters, etc.




Nah, I think Driver is perfect.  Kylo Ren is also so.  I don't want an endless parade of Darth Vaders and Emperor Palpatines.  They are gone.  And maybe that is very realistic.  Vader was a great villian and he had great presence, but should every Sith? Should every villian be the same cookie cutter uber strong and domineering? I think not.  We won't see Vader's like again, or at least not for a long time, and that to me is real.  It's reflected in History even.  Great and terrible people arise, and fall.  Time goes on, and eventually they are over-shadowed by the next, or not. 

And is Ren a Sith? Maybe at the conclusion of The Last Jedi, but before that? I think he is portrayed as a reluctant Sith well.  We can see the division in him as he toils over what he thinks he must do with his father.  We see him again, pause and then even refrain from killing his mother, and then that look of astonishment and maybe even a little of sadness as his wingmen follow through.  

I watch the movies and see him as this reluctant Sith.  In over his head, and like many who first start down that path, and maybe some of the most tragic, one who thinks they have now gone too far to ever go back. That to me is what makes a good villain. That thinking that you have gone too far, and there is only one way forward, that path of destruction. That path to the dark side. 

Snoke?  I loved it. He was some great schemer, or at least we were shown to think so, and then Ren, in his ascent to truly becoming a Sith, maybe even Darth Ren? He kills him. Gone, all that silly speculation about who Snoke was turned on its ear.  I thought that was a great move. 

It is my hope, that we see Ren start to settle into this role as the Dark Lord of the Sith and level out.  Or not.  I kind of also like the fly off the handle Ren.  It makes him unpredictable and a different kind of frightening. He's not Vader and maybe now he can get from out behind that shadow to be a different kind of Dark-side user.


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## Shasarak (Dec 7, 2018)

Everytime I see Kylo Ren I think, would Darth Vader have put up with that?

But then again he is probably a perfect villain for the Millennial audience.


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## dragoner (Dec 7, 2018)

Kylo and Rey as lovers would add more verve to the storyline than killing a roomful people, yet one is family friendly (killing) and romance is not? Meh


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## Kaodi (Dec 8, 2018)

I do not think Kylo Ren counts as Sith. The Sith were an organization of dark force users, not a collection of dark force users. Maybe he will take up the mantle in IX, but unless it is explicit they I would go with, "not a Sith". 

In any case I think I have a relatively rare criticism of TLJ: it is a whiter movie that TFA. Finn was brutally demoted in TLJ, and Poe just somewhat less so. Their actions literally almost lead to the extermination of the Resistance. That is a big difference from what happened in TFA. Sure Poe was captured and interrogated in TFA but he did not do anything wrong per se. And Finn - he is the first character you meet in this trilogy. He defects, saves Poe, and _he faces Kylo Ren with the lightsaber despite not having Force powers_. That was epic and meaningful, and his losing did not diminish that in any way.

TLJ let them down. Poe had a flyboy moment but that was the same time he let the whole bomber fleet die. And the actually fighting between Finn and Phasma was mercilessly short. That could have and should have been one of the great duels in Star Wars film history, a melee battle between two non-force users. But they did not take advantage of that. 

The only possibly meaningful thing that came out of their whole arc was the thing with the kids at the stables. And of a black boy, a white girl, and a white boy, who turned out to be the most important one? The white boy. That is what the movie ended on. All the other important stuff was done by Rey, Leia, Luke, Holdo, and Kylo Ren. For all people complain about TLJ being some kind of SJW movie the racial politics of it are actually bantha poodoo.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Dec 8, 2018)

It's hard to say what my biggest problems with the series are, how much it is just nostalgia for all the good parts of the old movies or the old EU, how much of it is resistance to change, and how much it is just genuine more or less objective flaws.

Some people describe Rey as Mary Sue because she's too competent, but I believe that is not really that important. 

I think one of the bigger aspects about it is that it doesn't feel like she is sufficiently challenged by anything and this denies her real growth. Luke's first light saber training isn't so easy, and him deciding to really trust the force and succeeding feels like great growth. ESB adds to it - we don't really know the time frame of his training with Yoda, but we see Luke's transition and how he gains better mastery of the force. We also see him rush out and end up being overwhelmed when facing Vader, both due to the lack of experience and training, but also due to the emotional challenge of learning that the most terrifying and hated villain in the galaxy (and his personal enemy) is his father, and he loses a hand over it. 
Rey's challenges just always fall flat compared to the journey Luke takes. She learns from a questionable third party that her parents might not be important and fights her way through a group of supposed elite guards, and her final challenge of using the force in the movie is lifting some rocks, which just feels a bit lame compared to what she has already accomplished so far. 
There are certainly some interesting aspects to her - unlike Luke, she is an unwilling hero in the beginning, and her own encounter with the Dark Side is visually quite interesting (but it also feels a bit too open to interpretation). 

Overall I think it would have helped if they had really thought up an arc for the trilogy beforehand, or at least after the first. I mean, that is kinda the point of making it a trilogy.


----------



## Imaculata (Dec 8, 2018)

I didn't really mind the character of Rey in TFA, but I feel TLJ really needed to push her further as a character. I mean, what does she really do in TLJ? She spends a lot of time on an island, which ultimately doesn't lead anywhere, and then fights Snoke's guards a bit. This movie would have been the perfect opportunity to have her suffer defeat, or to be challenged in her convictions. To have shocking dark revelations about her and the origin of her powers. This movie NEEDED to do that. Instead it shrugged, admitted it had no answers, and made jazz hands at the audience.

In TFA Rey is wide-eyed, and dreaming about the grand adventures of great heroes. The name Luke Skywalker gets her excited, because he is a legend. TLJ does some dispelling in that regards, but I feel they didn't go far enough. I wanted to see a complete Luke heel turn, or a complete Rey heel turn. There is some great potential to have Rey and Kylo Ren doubt the side they are fighting on and turn more towards the gray. Maybe Kylo Ren can redeem himself, and turn away from the dark side? Maybe Rey can lose her faith in the light side of the force? Perhaps they can meet somewhere in the middle and reject both ideologies? Instead the movie has both characters flirt with this possibility, and immediately abandon it.

Also, am I the only one who noticed that Daisy Ridley's acting at the start of TLJ is really bad? She gets better later on, but it is a rough opening.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 8, 2018)

Imaculata said:


> I didn't really mind the character of Rey in TFA, but I feel TLJ really needed to push her further as a character. I mean, what does she really do in TLJ? She spends a lot of time on an island, which ultimately doesn't lead anywhere, and then fights Snoke's guards a bit. This movie would have been the perfect opportunity to have her suffer defeat, or to be challenged in her convictions. To have shocking dark revelations about her and the origin of her powers. This movie NEEDED to do that. Instead it shrugged, admitted it had no answers, and made jazz hands at the audience.
> 
> In TFA Rey is wide-eyed, and dreaming about the grand adventures of great heroes. The name Luke Skywalker gets her excited, because he is a legend. TLJ does some dispelling in that regards, but I feel they didn't go far enough. I wanted to see a complete Luke heel turn, or a complete Rey heel turn. There is some great potential to have Rey and Kylo Ren doubt the side they are fighting on and turn more towards the gray. Maybe Kylo Ren can redeem himself, and turn away from the dark side? Maybe Rey can lose her faith in the light side of the force? Perhaps they can meet somewhere in the middle and reject both ideologies? Instead the movie has both characters flirt with this possibility, and immediately abandon it.
> 
> Also, am I the only one who noticed that Daisy Ridley's acting at the start of TLJ is really bad? She gets better later on, but it is a rough opening.




 She isn't a great actor but Mark Hamill wasn't that good in SE:IV and then we had kid Anakin and Hayden so I gave her a free pass- she looks good by comparison. Any problems with her character are not the actors fault.


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## trappedslider (Dec 9, 2018)




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## Imaculata (Dec 9, 2018)

Zardnaar said:


> She isn't a great actor but Mark Hamill wasn't that good in SE:IV and then we had kid Anakin and Hayden so I gave her a free pass- she looks good by comparison. Any problems with her character are not the actors fault.




In TFA she was great, so it was kind of weird to see her deliver such a bad performance. But like I said, this is only during the opening of the movie, so I think the director is really to blame here.


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## Umbran (Dec 9, 2018)

Istbor said:


> And is Ren a Sith?




Not as such.  While they haven't really defined it in the new movies, going on the old canon, the Sith were a specific tradition of users of the Dark Side of the Force.  Snoke never uses the term "Sith".  Andy Serkis (the actor for Snoke) went so far as to say explicitly that Snoke was not a Sith Lord.

Snoke was some other user of the Dark Side.  So, Kylo Ren is not Sith either.


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## Umbran (Dec 9, 2018)

dragoner said:


> Kylo and Rey as lovers ...




Ew.

Kylo Ren in an immature, entitled, self-absorbed anger-puppy.  When he gets angry, he throws literal tantrums, lashing out with deadly violence.  

He is not a mentally or emotionally stable adult, not capable of romantic love in the standard sense.


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## dragoner (Dec 9, 2018)

Umbran said:


> Ew.
> 
> Kylo Ren in an immature, entitled, self-absorbed anger-puppy.  When he gets angry, he throws literal tantrums, lashing out with deadly violence.
> 
> He is not a mentally or emotionally stable adult, not capable of romantic love in the standard sense.




See, it works, you are already adding verve to the idea. To paraphrase Tolstoy's “All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.” It's the fact that it would probably play out like an _unhappy romance_ is key, tragedy is more gripping story-wise.

Rey as the Red Queen? Pregnant mother fleeing to the wilderness to protect her unborn child? There are a huge amounts of tangents that could play off the romance angle.


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## doctorbadwolf (Dec 9, 2018)

Umbran said:


> Ew.
> 
> Kylo Ren in an immature, entitled, self-absorbed anger-puppy.  When he gets angry, he throws literal tantrums, lashing out with deadly violence.
> 
> He is not a mentally or emotionally stable adult, not capable of romantic love in the standard sense.




Exactly this. 

Also, I don’t understand how people expected or wanted random heel turns?


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## Umbran (Dec 9, 2018)

dragoner said:


> Rey as the Red Queen? Pregnant mother fleeing to the wilderness to protect her unborn child? There are a huge amounts of tangents that could play off the romance angle.




Note that you are thus defining Rey's role in the story in terms of her romantic relationship to the man.  Which is already the dominant mode of fiction, to date.  Not so much "verve" as "cliche".

Thanks, I find it more interesting for her to be out on her own, not needing the man to define who or what she is to the story.


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## dragoner (Dec 9, 2018)

Umbran said:


> I find it more interesting for her to be out on her own, not needing the man to define who or what she is to the story.




So you liked the slaughter of the room full of people together angle? People are always defined by their interactions with each other. I suppose if you believe in some sort of libertarian ubermensch, she would make sense to you? It's foreign to me.


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## jonesy (Dec 9, 2018)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Umbran said:
> 
> 
> > Ew.
> ...



Because REDEMPTION ARC!! Woo!! (You have to throw your hands straight up in the air while you shout it for it to have maximum impact.)

No, but seriously, because Darth Vader was apparently redeemed in his story (does Vader-ghost really signify that? I'm not entirely sure) a not insignificant portion of viewers also thought, and wanted, for Kylo to follow down that same path somehow. Or something like that. Love conquers all? Personally I'd prefer Kylo to lose all self-control and just go straight nuthouse cuckoo in the last film. That would be new. I don't think we've had truly crazy villains in Star Wars.


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## dragoner (Dec 9, 2018)

Kylo's arc eclipses Rey's, huh. I find it interesting that people think she should stay a virginal murder-machine, that is better, more pure? Also, does a woman lose her agency in a romantic relationship? Very strange. I think some of it is immaturity, which Star Wars has plenty of; even though Rogue One, shows there is a market for a more mature audience.


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## billd91 (Dec 9, 2018)

dragoner said:


> So you liked the slaughter of the room full of people together angle? People are always defined by their interactions with each other. I suppose if you believe in some sort of libertarian ubermensch, she would make sense to you? It's foreign to me.




What, on earth, are you taking about? Libertarian ubermensch? Because Rey shouldn't be thought of as a male character's girlfriend? What has that go to do with a libertarian übermensch?


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## dragoner (Dec 9, 2018)

billd91 said:


> What, on earth, are you taking about? Libertarian ubermensch? Because Rey shouldn't be thought of as a male character's girlfriend? What has that go to do with a libertarian übermensch?




Do you believe that a woman, as a sexual creature, it demeans them? That is what I mean, it is immaturity, mommy issues. I figure the whole pure violence maiden, like Brunhilda - that's the libertarian ubermensch; it doesn't mean much to me as I'm more eastern, not german.


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## jonesy (Dec 9, 2018)

I'd like to rant a little about this whole business of things having meanings. I think I've said this here before years ago, but you know what ruined a large part of my love for Star Wars? The EU. Yes, you read that right. In my opinion the Expanded Universe was the worst thing that ever happened to Star Wars. Not because it's somehow bad to have more stories in the universe you like. No, that was a good thing. The ruining, the bad, it was the quantifying, the over-explaining, the information overload. It was having to have every single thing in the Star Wars universe somehow have a significant meaning that had to connect to every other meaning there ever was. It was people creating this dictionary like super defined mass of dry data that sucked all life out of the whole damn lot of it. You don't have to have a meaning for every single thing. The same thing goes for Midichlorians. There was no need for those. It's perfectly fine for a thing to exist in a story and not have it be explained to the finest detail. And yes, while I do like Solo, having the dice explained was stupid. Do you remember Ratts Tyerell? Do you know what his goal for the Boonta was? Did you know he had just become a dad when he died in Phantom Menace? Do we know what material the grains of sand that his pod flew through were made of? I don't know that last one, but I'm guessing the chances of there being an actual answer are higher than zero.


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## Shasarak (Dec 9, 2018)

dragoner said:


> Kylo's arc eclipses Rey's, huh. I find it interesting that people think she should stay a virginal murder-machine, that is better, more pure? Also, does a woman lose her agency in a romantic relationship? Very strange. I think some of it is immaturity, which Star Wars has plenty of; even though Rogue One, shows there is a market for a more mature audience.




It is just because it is an American movie made for an American audience.


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## dragoner (Dec 9, 2018)

Maybe. /shrug



jonesy said:


> I'd like to rant a little about this whole business of things having meanings. I think I've said this here before years ago, but you know what ruined a large part of my love for Star Wars? The EU.




This has relevance to me, while I don't know much about the EU, I remain peripheral to the fandom at large, I did buy a Star Wars t-shirt at Macy's the other day, except that is probably just nostalgia. I don't really think there is a problem with the Disney Star Wars, it's me, not them. I have simply outgrown the franchise. I will still go see the movies, knowing they won't ever get back to what it meant to me as a kid, and I remain in the shadow of what was.


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## Umbran (Dec 9, 2018)

dragoner said:


> Do you believe that a woman, as a sexual creature, it demeans them?




Hardly.  You are taking only part of the point.

Broadly speaking, in the history of literature and film, female characters are far too frequently defined by their role in the male character's life.  They are most often defined by their sexuality.  It is, as I said above, cliche.

That's the real point - there are already tons of female characters who are the male's significant other, in one form or another.  The female who *doesn't* become the love interest is more rare, and therefore more interesting, imho.



> I figure the whole pure violence maiden, like Brunhilda - that's the libertarian ubermensch; it doesn't mean much to me as I'm more eastern, not german.




It has nothing to do with the scene where they slaughter Snoke's guards, ro any other bit of violence from the movie.   That is a false dichotomy - romance with Kylo Ren or slaughter!  As if those are the only choices?  There's a world of other narratives, dude.

And if "libertarian" enters into it at all, you're leaning way too far to the political.


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## dragoner (Dec 10, 2018)

Umbran said:


> You are taking only part of the point.




I'm continuing with what was already there:

_Kylo Ren: Rey... I want you to join me. We can rule together ... _

A natural end result, and in line with other themes like:

_Rose Tico: We're going to win this war not by fighting what we hate, but saving what we love! _

Rey does have feelings for Kylo. Heartbreak and desire have a certain gravitas that override cliche, not that Star Wars doesn't have a ton of cliche in it already. It is a chance to develop the characters, but obviously in a more mature manner. Romance or slaughter are the choices the movie made, I just observed it, and feel that romance would have been the better choice. *In General* I find a lot of the violence gratuitous in that the outcome is preordained, so in the end it is only a see how they win scene. That is more of the cliche of the movies, it's filler.





> And if "libertarian" enters into it at all, you're leaning way too far to the political.




More just descriptive of the Rey "Going Their Own Way" thing.


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## Umbran (Dec 10, 2018)

dragoner said:


> More just descriptive of the Rey "Going Their Own Way" thing.




First the libertarian thing, and now Men's Rights Activist lingo?  Pardon me for a second...

*Moderator Hat ON*

As a moderator, I now must point you at The Forum Rules (there's a link to them at the bottom of every forum page).  You will note that we have some rules about these things - no politics, no religion (under "Keep It On Topic") and if we see significant sexism, racism, or similar messages, you will be asked to stop (under "Keep it Inclusive").

You may not have *intended* to run afoul of these.  But I'm going to have to ask you to leave such references out of your discussion.  It *will* be taken poorly, if it continues.

Sorry if you find that restrictive, but that's the way it is.  If you have questions about this, please take them to e-mail or Private Message with a member of the moderating staff.  Do not argue the point in-thread, please and thank you.

*Moderator Hat OFF*


We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion of space wizards with laser swords.


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## dragoner (Dec 10, 2018)

Are you saying you are one of those types?


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## Istbor (Dec 10, 2018)

Umbran said:


> Not as such.  While they haven't really defined it in the new movies, going on the old canon, the Sith were a specific tradition of users of the Dark Side of the Force.  Snoke never uses the term "Sith".  Andy Serkis (the actor for Snoke) went so far as to say explicitly that Snoke was not a Sith Lord.
> 
> Snoke was some other user of the Dark Side.  So, Kylo Ren is not Sith either.




Yeah, I too felt that was pretty questionable. He does do a lot of Sith-like things.  Use the force, fight with a laser sword. Kill his master to become the new. So I may have just conflated it. Or assumed, that is one of Ren's goals, as at least... he used to want to emulate Dark Vader.

You are of course on point in regards to Snoke.  We don't know who or what Snoke really was.  Some user of the force with darker intentions obviously, but outside of that, no clue as to an organization beyond the First Order. 

I'll be interested in seeing what Ren's goals are once the next portion of the trilogy hits.  Especially if we see a jump in time.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 10, 2018)

Istbor said:


> Yeah, I too felt that was pretty questionable. He does do a lot of Sith-like things.  Use the force, fight with a laser sword. Kill his master to become the new. So I may have just conflated it. Or assumed, that is one of Ren's goals, as at least... he used to want to emulate Dark Vader.
> 
> You are of course on point in regards to Snoke.  We don't know who or what Snoke really was.  Some user of the force with darker intentions obviously, but outside of that, no clue as to an organization beyond the First Order.
> 
> I'll be interested in seeing what Ren's goals are once the next portion of the trilogy hits.  Especially if we see a jump in time.




 Kylo Ren is a Dark Jedi not a Sith.


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## Istbor (Dec 10, 2018)

Zardnaar said:


> Kylo Ren is a Dark Jedi not a Sith.




Yeah, I think we came to that conclusion.


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## Ovinomancer (Dec 11, 2018)

Zardnaar said:


> Kylo Ren is a Dark Jedi not a Sith.



Describe what this is using only new canon sources.

The old EU is strong in this one.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 11, 2018)

Ovinomancer said:


> Describe what this is using only new canon sources.
> 
> The old EU is strong in this one.




 Old cannon Any force user that is a dark sider that is not a member of a force tradition. 

 New cannon might not be specific but Kylo has had Jedi training and is a dark sider. He might be a Knight of Ren assuming they are a tradition, but he is basically a dark Jedi.


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## Ovinomancer (Dec 11, 2018)

Zardnaar said:


> Old cannon Any force user that is a dark sider that is not a member of a force tradition.
> 
> New cannon might not be specific but Kylo has had Jedi training and is a dark sider. He might be a Knight of Ren assuming they are a tradition, but he is basically a dark Jedi.



Despite ignoring the old cannon restriction, a dark Jedi is what you call a dark side force user not associated with a force tradition?  Really?  They're not associated with a tradition, so they get associated with a Light side tradition?

I'm even less sorry the old EU went up in flames.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 11, 2018)

Ovinomancer said:


> Despite ignoring the old cannon restriction, a dark Jedi is what you call a dark side force user not associated with a force tradition?  Really?  They're not associated with a tradition, so they get associated with a Light side tradition?
> 
> I'm even less sorry the old EU went up in flames.




Sorta that was the Jedi councils position on it. Later on they added in a heap of other traditions light and dark. Generally its more like a Jedi who falls to the dark side but is not a Sith or any other force tradition. A more generic thing might be any dark sider using a lightsaber but is not a memebr of another tradition is a dark jedi.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Jedi

 Ok generally a dark Jedi or anyone trained by one. Could be used to describe any dark side user.

 In universe the differences between dark jedi, Sith etc are mostly academic to the general populace. If someone can fire force lightning its gonna suck. Knowledge of the Sith was suppressed, only senior Jedi, occultists and maybe specialists in history would have knowledge of them It would be like knowledge of old Roman mysteries for their religious ceremonies, the average person would not know about them.


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## doctorbadwolf (Dec 11, 2018)

Ovinomancer said:


> Despite ignoring the old cannon restriction, a dark Jedi is what you call a dark side force user not associated with a force tradition?  Really?  They're not associated with a tradition, so they get associated with a Light side tradition?
> 
> I'm even less sorry the old EU went up in flames.



Entirely in new canon, Kylo Ren is a former Jedi who has gone Dark. Thus, Dark Jedi is a perfectly acceptable description.


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## Umbran (Dec 11, 2018)

Zardnaar said:


> http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Jedi
> 
> Ok generally a dark Jedi or anyone trained by one. Could be used to describe any dark side user.




WIkipedia or not, I'd say... dark side user that had Jedi training.

In the movie canon, Darth Vader was Sith *and* Dark Jedi.  Darth Maul, Palpatine/Darth Sidious, and Count Dooku/Darth Tyranus were Sith, but had no known Jedi training, IIRC.  They are *not* referred to as Dark Jedi in the movie canon, or anywhere else, IIRC.

Snoke was not referred to as "Darth".  We have an actor's word that he was not Sith, and we have no information that he had Jedi Training.  Goodness only knows what he was.

Kylo Ren had Jedi training, and so could be counted as Dark Jedi... and whatever Snoke was.


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## Jester David (Dec 11, 2018)

Umbran said:


> WIkipedia or not, I'd say... dark side user that had Jedi training.
> 
> In the movie canon, Darth Vader was Sith *and* Dark Jedi.  Darth Maul, Palpatine/Darth Sidious, and Count Dooku/Darth Tyranus were Sith, but had no known Jedi training, IIRC.  They are *not* referred to as Dark Jedi in the movie canon, or anywhere else, IIRC.
> 
> ...



Dooku was a Jedi. He trained Qui-Gon Jin.
It just doesn’t come up much.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 11, 2018)

Umbran said:


> WIkipedia or not, I'd say... dark side user that had Jedi training.
> 
> In the movie canon, Darth Vader was Sith *and* Dark Jedi.  Darth Maul, Palpatine/Darth Sidious, and Count Dooku/Darth Tyranus were Sith, but had no known Jedi training, IIRC.  They are *not* referred to as Dark Jedi in the movie canon, or anywhere else, IIRC.
> 
> ...





 Well it was never really clear in the old cannon. It has come up in the new cannon as Dookus trainees in the Clone Wars are dark Jedi not Sith. 

 I basically go with dark side user with Jedi training. If you are a member of the Sith or another dark side organisation you're not a dark Jedi. There was a hint Snoke was a Dark Jedi or even an ancient Jedi. He didn't have the Darkside eyes like the Sith did (although Dooku also avoided this), and on the mosaic on the Jedi temple it looked like he was on it in TLJ. 

 They could have had Snoke handled a lot better to put it mildly. Rian dropped hints it seems but didn't follow up.


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## Umbran (Dec 13, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Dooku was a Jedi. He trained Qui-Gon Jin.
> It just doesn’t come up much.




Huh.  Learn something new every day.  Somehow, that detail slipped by me.  Reading up, yes, was trained by Yoda, and then trained Qui-Gon Jin.


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## Jester David (Dec 13, 2018)

Zardnaar said:


> Well it was never really clear in the old cannon. It has come up in the new cannon as Dookus trainees in the Clone Wars are dark Jedi not Sith.
> 
> I basically go with dark side user with Jedi training. If you are a member of the Sith or another dark side organisation you're not a dark Jedi. There was a hint Snoke was a Dark Jedi or even an ancient Jedi. He didn't have the Darkside eyes like the Sith did (although Dooku also avoided this), and on the mosaic on the Jedi temple it looked like he was on it in TLJ.
> 
> They could have had Snoke handled a lot better to put it mildly. Rian dropped hints it seems but didn't follow up.



It comes up, but they’re not really called either “dark Jedi” or “Sith”. Neither Ventress or Savage are given a title to their order, and neither is Maul.

As far as Snoke’s past go... again, we know more about him than the Emperor in the original trilogy. I don’t think learning how he became Emperoror really improved Palpatine much. The movies suggest much, but aren’t 100% clear.
And really... the mystery is entertaining. Answers are boring.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 13, 2018)

Jester David said:


> It comes up, but they’re not really called either “dark Jedi” or “Sith”. Neither Ventress or Savage are given a title to their order, and neither is Maul.
> 
> As far as Snoke’s past go... again, we know more about him than the Emperor in the original trilogy. I don’t think learning how he became Emperoror really improved Palpatine much. The movies suggest much, but aren’t 100% clear.
> And really... the mystery is entertaining. Answers are boring.




 Context is the kicker. The Empire was roughly space Nazi Germany/USSR analog, they were evil and it was a new story.

 TFA and co are basically sequels. The new canon has explained some things but on screen for example they don't really detail the First Order or go into how they actually exist or why are they a threat post RoTJ and how has this new "imperial" faction arrived or why it matters. You get less information than in ANH with Luke talking to Kenobi about the clone wars. You don't need a vast explanation but even 5 minutes would help and they don't do that.

 Otherwise why do we really care about the heroes, what they are doing etc etc etc. Doesn't help that there is virtually no character development with the 3 main heroes and the villains are basically chumps. 

 TFA opens well but Kylo by the end is a chump (Vader was basdass) and then in TLJ- Hux chump/comic relief, Phasma chump, Snoke  chump and its purely down to the story. Kylo comes out looking a bit better but he got tricked by Luke so is a chump (for the second time back to back in 2 movies). Its hard to root for the villains defeat when they are more comical than threatening. They started out well at the start of TFA with Kylo holding the blaster bolt in place.

 The main problem is they jobbed out all the villains, and the heroes are very generic so its hard to care about any of them. Even Rogue One pulled this off with the relationship between Jynn and her father. She was also a badass and her sacrifice meant something despite only having 2 hours or so to tell that story. 

 Sure the villains got their comeuppance in the OT but it was in the 3rd movie they killed of Fett/Emperor/Vader. Even have somehting simple like rather than desert Orphan 2.0 Kylo could have killed Reys parents in the opening scene of TFA. Avoids rehash 2.0, gives you an explanation/motive and Rey a simple few lines could tie Rey to Luke so she could have had some training. Evil king/Empire, royal orphan, evil empire is classic, doesn't require that much set up.


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## Jester David (Dec 13, 2018)

Zardnaar said:


> Context is the kicker. The Empire was roughly space Nazi Germany/USSR analog, they were evil and it was a new story.
> 
> TFA and co are basically sequels. The new canon has explained some things but on screen for example they don't really detail the First Order or go into how they actually exist or why are they a threat post RoTJ and how has this new "imperial" faction arrived or why it matters. You get less information than in ANH with Luke talking to Kenobi about the clone wars. You don't need a vast explanation but even 5 minutes would help and they don't do that.



I agree. _The Force Awakens_ really dropped the ball with that. We have no idea of the scale or scope. It's terrible, terrible worldbuilding. 



Zardnaar said:


> Otherwise why do we really care about the heroes, what they are doing etc etc etc. Doesn't help that there is virtually no character development with the 3 main heroes and the villains are basically chumps.



Well, Poe is only a lead in the second movie, and has a tonne of character development where's humbled repeatedly and forced to be a leader. 
Finn goes from being a mindless killing machine to a coward who wants to just run away to someone willing to sacrifice themselves.
And Rey learns independence, and is able to be herself and live her own life without waiting from someone from her past to save her or give her meaning, while also being willing to walk away from Luke and not rely on him and his teachings to define her. 

Quick: what's the character development for Leia and Han in Episodes V and VI?



Zardnaar said:


> TFA opens well but Kylo by the end is a chump (Vader was basdass) and then in TLJ- Hux chump/comic relief, Phasma chump, Snoke  chump and its purely down to the story. Kylo comes out looking a bit better but he got tricked by Luke so is a chump (for the second time back to back in 2 movies). Its hard to root for the villains defeat when they are more comical than threatening. They started out well at the start of TFA with Kylo holding the blaster bolt in place.



It's not like Ren got hit in the jetback by a blind guy, flew into the side of a sail barge, and was eaten by a giant sand sphincter. That kind of defines "chump".

This is the thing: the problems you have in the new movies almost always exist in the original trilogy. The difference is you're willing to just completely overlook or forgive those problems because you loved the movie before you noticed the problems 



Zardnaar said:


> Sure the villains got their comeuppance in the OT but it was in the 3rd movie they killed of Fett/Emperor/Vader. Even have somehting simple like rather than desert Orphan 2.0 Kylo could have killed Reys parents in the opening scene of TFA. Avoids rehash 2.0, gives you an explanation/motive and Rey a simple few lines could tie Rey to Luke so she could have had some training. Evil king/Empire, royal orphan, evil empire is classic, doesn't require that much set up.



So... you want the First Order to kill Rey's parents as a motive exactly like the Empire killed Luke's adoptive parents... to make her less of a rehash?


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## Umbran (Dec 13, 2018)

Zardnaar said:


> they don't really detail the First Order or go into how they actually exist or why are they a threat post RoTJ and how has this new "imperial" faction arrived or why it matters.






> Otherwise why do we really care about the heroes, what they are doing etc etc etc.




Well, we see this new faction wantonly slaughter an entire village in the opening of the movie.  And they are willing to _destroy entire inhabited planets_ to get what they want.

Dearie me, I don't know why it matters!  I don't know why I should care that the heroes oppose them!  

Hint: it is because they are *bad guys*.  We don't need to know the history to see that they're brutal, deadly, and not the kind of folks you want wandering around with planet-killing weapons.




> TFA opens well but Kylo by the end is a chump (Vader was basdass)




It might help for you define the term, "chump" as you are using it.  

The traditional definition is "foolish or easily deceived" and has nothing to do with how badass you are.  A chump is beaten by outwitting them, not by outfighting them on their own terms.  The trolls in The Hobbit are chumps, and completely physically overwhelm the heroes.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 14, 2018)

Umbran said:


> Well, we see this new faction wantonly slaughter an entire village in the opening of the movie.  And they are willing to _destroy entire inhabited planets_ to get what they want.
> 
> Dearie me, I don't know why it matters!  I don't know why I should care that the heroes oppose them!
> 
> ...




 Not claiming the First order is not evil but basically why should we care they are evil.

 Lets put it another way. Say Rey goes forth in Episode IX and deals with/kills Kylo Ren yay the good guys win. But it was never in doubt, Kylo threw tantrums in TFA, lost a battle, got made to look like a chump in Episode TLJ by being fooled by Luke and Rey is superwomen you may as well put her in a blue and red super hero costume. That is boring because Kylo is a weak villain there no emotional attachment for him getting his ass kicked because he has already lost twice (cf Vader). Assuming they don't pull a swerve by a double turn (Rey dark, Kylo Light) or pull something like Kylo wins or they both die. 

 And they could have avoided this just by a few tweaks. They lost about 40% of the revenue from TFA to TLJ, Rogue One cf Solo lost over half if that pattern holds Episode IX is heading towards Solo levels of losing money (maybe they film it cheaper and turn a small profit IDK). TLJ did not have the fans going back and seeing the movie over and over again like TFA did (or it attracted a lot less people take your pick). 

 Take Rey tweak her background slightly and she could have been a Jedi survivor, the last Jedi Knight (and it feeds into being the Last Jedi), you don't really need to know much more she is a Jedi Knight ergo she is already a bad ass (like Obi Wan in the prequels). It doesn't bring up the issue of her parents (-1 for being a rehash, -1 for a crap follow up). TFA is mostly the same tweaking it for the new back ground. TLJ rolls around, Rey is a Jedi- the last one even makes sense yes? Have Kylo get trained by Snoke (as hinted at end of TFA), he makes a comeback, kills Luke not some projection (makes him a badass, Snoke less of a chump because he trained him), Evil wins round 2 a'la ESB, and episode IX you have a climatic showdown (Rey vs dude who killed Luke). Lukes valiant last stand is enough of a distraction for the resistance to get away more or less like TLJ as is.  TLJ screens more or less as it but instead of Rey being trained its Kylo with Snoke (or have both of them get trained why not). 

 Finn got stuck in a boring pointless sub plot, Poe looked like an idiot for getting his entire command killed for being an idiot. Yeah sure in ANH a lot of rebels died in the Death Star run but its because they're desperate not stupid and they're dead anyway if they don't make an effort. 

 Most of the main cast are chumps. Chumps basically being easily defeated in a stupid/foolish way or doing stupid and foolish things (and getting defeated). Sure Luke rushed of being reckless but there at least was a bit of plot protection for him as he cared about his friends. They all survived and his stupidity was limited to his friends. 

Earlier comment about character development. Han ANH went from ruthless mercenary type to good hearted rebel. Followed up on in ESBwith comments about deathmark. Leia, senatorial princess, becomes very handy with blaster, rebel commando RoTJ. Luke farmboy to Jedi Knight. Hell even Lando did the right thing in the end and tried to fix his screw up (successfully). 

 Rey superwomen right from the get go none of Lukes weaknesses .  Poe Great pilot turned into blithering idiot who got his squadron mates killed (and disobeyed orders for no good reason), Finn coward, became heroic but in a boring stupid sub plot but at least they made the effort I suppose. Hell since you don't need to be trained with a lightsaber anymore just chuck that kid at the end of TLJ a lightsaber and point him at the First Order. He should at least knock off Hux right? Put all three of the new heroes together, they almost qualify to carry Landos cape and he was a supporting character (and Donald Glover kinda stole Solo as well, Billy Dee was great in the OT). Lando has "it". Even Finn deserting the First Order doesn't mean that much as he didn't pull the trigger so doesn't really have anything to redeem as he wasn't that bad to begin with (cf Han shooting Greedo, theatrical release). 

 TLDR. Whos the villain in Episode IX and why should we care?


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## doctorbadwolf (Dec 14, 2018)

Umbran said:


> Well, we see this new faction wantonly slaughter an entire village in the opening of the movie.  And they are willing to _destroy entire inhabited planets_ to get what they want.
> 
> Dearie me, I don't know why it matters!  I don't know why I should care that the heroes oppose them!
> 
> ...




Also, the opening scroll tells us who the First Order is. They’re an expansionist successor to the Empire, that the New republic isn’t taking seriously enough, leading to Leia going rogue to oppose them. It’s...not that complicated.


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## Deset Gled (Dec 14, 2018)

Zardnaar said:


> And they could have avoided this just by a few tweaks. They lost about 40% of the revenue from TFA to TLJ, Rogue One cf Solo lost over half if that pattern holds Episode IX is heading towards Solo levels of losing money (maybe they film it cheaper and turn a small profit IDK). TLJ did not have the fans going back and seeing the movie over and over again like TFA did (or it attracted a lot less people take your pick).




Your analysis of financials is inaccurate.  The drop in revenue from TFA to TLJ is almost identical to the drop in revenue between ANH and ESB, and is on par for similar trilogies (Indiana Jones, Back to the Future, Jurassic Park, etc).  Rogue One and Solo are a separate series (Anthology) not expected to get the same turn out.  And while Solo didn't match Rogue One and didn't match Wall Street's projections, it still made just shy of $400M on a $300M budget.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 14, 2018)

Deset Gled said:


> Your analysis of financials is inaccurate.  The drop in revenue from TFA to TLJ is almost identical to the drop in revenue between ANH and ESB, and is on par for similar trilogies (Indiana Jones, Back to the Future, Jurassic Park, etc).  Rogue One and Solo are a separate series (Anthology) not expected to get the same turn out.  And while Solo didn't match Rogue One and didn't match Wall Street's projections, it still made just shy of $400M on a $300M budget.




 Solo needed 450 million to break even apparently, the makers of the film won't see all of the 400 million as movie theatres take a cut and other expenses. 

 TLJ underperformed for expectation along with Solo. Rogue One over performed (they expected around 800 million IIRC got over a billion). They were not expecting TFA numbers for TLJ basically for the reasons you mentioned.


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## Imaculata (Dec 15, 2018)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Exactly this.
> 
> Also, I don’t understand how people expected or wanted random heel turns?




Because I like them playing with the idea that maybe Kylo Ren is not beyond saving. It was certainly a thing in TFA, where his humanity is his weakness. I also like the idea that Rey's powers may be coming from a place of darkness. Kylo already tried to reach out to her in TFA... If you're going to introduce that element, I feel you should follow up on it. It's an interesting idea to me that maybe the two characters as we know them, are not that black and white after all. Maybe they can meet somewhere in the middle? So far Rey has been very predictable and things have been going her way a lot. I feel characters need to be challenged in both their convictions and goals, in order to create a compelling narrative.

Maybe Kylo Ren could be lured to the light side of the force through his weakness to Rey? Maybe Rey could be lured away from Luke Skywalker, after learning the crime he committed against his former student? 

Perhaps the same darkness that he saw in Kylo Ren, also lies in Rey? I think this is interesting stuff. Certainly more interesting than what we got in TLJ.


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## ccs (Dec 15, 2018)

Zardnaar said:


> Whos the villain in Episode IX and why should we care?




Kylo & the 1st order.

But given that TLJ was Dumb (heroes) & Dumber (1st order) in space, our heroes don't really have much to fear from them.

As for Kylo?  I stopped caring about him the moment he took his helmet off & started pitching a tantrum in TFA.
From that point on he just wasn't a credible character (let alone a villain) anymore to me.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Dec 15, 2018)

ccs said:


> Kylo & the 1st order.
> 
> But given that TLJ was Dumb (heroes) & Dumber (1st order) in space, our heroes don't really have much to fear from them.
> 
> ...




I actually liked that. I agree that it hurt his "villainy", but we have our bad ass dark lords already and an attempt of topping that was kinda bound to fail anyway, having him more of a "wannabe" felt interesting and new. But it feels they really didn't go with that anywhere yet.


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## Jester David (Dec 15, 2018)

Zardnaar said:


> TLDR. Whos the villain in Episode IX and why should we care?



Then don't care. Literally no one is asking you to care. 
If you want to tap out now that's fine. You can skip Episode IX and just rewatch the original trilogy again.


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## Umbran (Dec 15, 2018)

ccs said:


> But given that TLJ was Dumb (heroes) & Dumber (1st order) in space, our heroes don't really have much to fear from them.




Curious.  How are they more dumb than the Rebels and Empire?  Do you realize that Space Opera is not about tactical correctness?



> As for Kylo?  I stopped caring about him the moment he took his helmet off & started pitching a tantrum in TFA.
> From that point on he just wasn't a credible character (let alone a villain) anymore to me.




Interesting.  I found that *more* credible.  It isn't like villains are *all* going to be pillars of emotional strength.  When your source of power is to engage anger, you don't expect people with anger control issues?


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## Jester David (Dec 15, 2018)

ccs said:


> As for Kylo?  I stopped caring about him the moment he took his helmet off & started pitching a tantrum in TFA.
> From that point on he just wasn't a credible character (let alone a villain) anymore to me.



It was odd but it made sense to me. 
Sith and the Dark Side is driven by passion. They are literally fuelled by rage and anger and hate. They shouldn't be calm. And yet every other Sith lord we've seen has been a calm, collected badass who seems about as drive by passion as a Vulcan.

I can buy it with Vader. He seethed with a quiet rage. And did not hesitate to let it out. But Maul and Darth Tyranus and Sitdious/ Palpatine were all also far too calm for people corrupted by hatred and fury.


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## cbwjm (Dec 15, 2018)

I watched Solo when it came out and loved it, it was one of the best of the new movies (the one-shots seem to be better than the new trilogy in my opinion, although I still loved watching those as well). Solo seemed to get a lot of hate which I never really understood, it was an excellent adventure.


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