# ninja/shadowdancer build.



## Animal (Nov 5, 2008)

hello, guys.
i've currently started playing a shadowdancer-wannabe ninja. but i'm not sure of the best way to enter the PrC. the obvious option would be to go ninja 7/SD X. on the other hand ninja 4/ranger 2/dread commando 1/SD X seems a lot more combat oriented and viable. what do you guys say, which is better and why? maybe someone will share their own builds with me?


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## Angrydad (Nov 5, 2008)

Oi. It really depends on what you want the character's focus to be. Sneakiness? Combat effectiveness? What are you going for here?


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## Animal (Nov 5, 2008)

being a bit of a powergamer i want to be overall effective.  but i'd like to focus on sneakiness/infiltration/assassination kind of build (hence the SD PrC). i'm also thinking to go ranged, cause i can't whip up a decent melee build (low AC, hampered mobility, harder to use SA, feat-intensive).


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## Drowbane (Nov 5, 2008)

Dark (LA 1 template) + rogue + swordsage (focus on Shadow Hand).

Hide in plain sight is vastly superior to invisibility (see invis is too easy to get)


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## Animal (Nov 5, 2008)

we don't use ToB. and dark template is so broken that i don't want to use it even as a player. anyway i already have two ninja levels..
hide in plain sight is actually one of the main reasons i want to take at least one level in shadow dancer.


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## Shin Okada (Nov 6, 2008)

It seems that all you need is only 1 level of Shadowdancer class. IMHO you should just go for NinjaX/SD1. Because at higher level Ninja gets a lot of fancy abilities such as becoming ethereal or striking from ethereal plane.

If you are a power gamer, taking a level of Fighter and Martial Stalker feat (Comp Scoundrel) is not a bad idea, too. You can add up fighter and ninja levels for qualifying feats which require a minimum fighter level. So you can take feats such as Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Melee Weapon Mastery (PHB II). Bonuses from those feats are effective against enemies immune to your sudden strike damages.


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## Starbuck_II (Nov 6, 2008)

Shin Okada said:


> It seems that all you need is only 1 level of Shadowdancer class. IMHO you should just go for NinjaX/SD1. Because at higher level Ninja gets a lot of fancy abilities such as becoming ethereal or striking from ethereal plane.
> 
> If you are a power gamer, taking a level of Fighter and Martial Stalker feat (Comp Scoundrel) is not a bad idea, too. You can add up fighter and ninja levels for qualifying feats which require a minimum fighter level. So you can take feats such as Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Melee Weapon Mastery (PHB II). Bonuses from those feats are effective against enemies immune to your sudden strike damages.




Does Weapon Mastery require both of those feats (been a whilesince I read PHB 2)?

Even if not a Power gamer (come on, this is a CV ninja not a Druid): Martial Striker is a good feat.


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## Animal (Nov 6, 2008)

i agree that SD can well be just a one level dip if i find a more interesting build. but i don't really feel that martial striker gives me a lot of benefits. do i really need all those fighter feats? this build you guys suggest is very feat-intensive and not powerful at all in the end. i'm a ninja, standard full-round attacks are not effective for me, you see? without SA ninja's damage output is not very impressive and weapon mastery doesn't really make up for it. 
what i need is not boosting my base damage, but gaining more SA, more chances to use it in combat (invisibility, stunning, etc.) and more mobility. any ideas on such a build?


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## Stormborn (Nov 6, 2008)

What's your alignment?  

If evil, or if you have a DM who is willing to work with you on the requirements,  you could try ghost faced killer  There is even some rules about adaptation for a good PC.

If lawful you could consider some levels of monk for increased mobility and FoB could help you out, and IIRC there are some good feats for using Ki abilities. Especially useful if you can talk your DM into letting you take af eat that allow multiclassing with the Monk.


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## Shin Okada (Nov 6, 2008)

Animal said:


> i agree that SD can well be just a one level dip if i find a more interesting build. but i don't really feel that martial striker gives me a lot of benefits. do i really need all those fighter feats? this build you guys suggest is very feat-intensive and not powerful at all in the end. i'm a ninja, standard full-round attacks are not effective for me, you see? without SA ninja's damage output is not very impressive and weapon mastery doesn't really make up for it.




Right. But Ninja class has "Average" BAB progression. In my experience, you will eventually find that the biggest problem is that your attack bonus is too low comparing to those of characters with "good" BAB classes. If you can't hit, you can't inflict SA damages. Fighter feats helps you in that area.



> what i need is not boosting my base damage, but gaining more SA, more chances to use it in combat (invisibility, stunning, etc.) and more mobility. any ideas on such a build?




Taking a level of Cleric with Magic Domain instead is not a bad idea. Imagine what you can do with wands and staves of all the Sor/Wiz and Clr spells.


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## Animal (Nov 6, 2008)

> If lawful you could consider some levels of monk for increased mobility and FoB could help you out, and IIRC there are some good feats for using Ki abilities. Especially useful if you can talk your DM into letting you take af eat that allow multiclassing with the Monk.



i'm lawful neutral. and its really a good idea actually. 2 levels of monk and Ascetic Stalker are a very interesting choice. can't believe i've missed out that feat! wisdom synergy, evasion, unarmed damage progression, stunning fist to stun peeps for SS. wow i'm almost sold on it.
maybe i should also take improved disarm and beat people to death with their own weapons? 



> Right. But Ninja class has "Average" BAB progression. In my experience, you will eventually find that the biggest problem is that your attack bonus is too low comparing to those of characters with "good" BAB classes. If you can't hit, you can't inflict SA damages. Fighter feats helps you in that area.



i already have to spend three feats to get into SD PrC. this build is already feat intensive and i just won't be able to pick all the fighter feats until late teens. anyway when i'll be sudden striking enemies will be denied their dex bonus, so that may help a bit. as for feats i think i'll be looking for something that doesn't give plain bonuses but gives some extra abilities and choices. like Pharaoh Fist (iirc) for crowd control or some tactical feats.



> Taking a level of Cleric with Magic Domain instead is not a bad idea. Imagine what you can do with wands and staves of all the Sor/Wiz and Clr spells.



that's an interesting idea. but is it worth losing a level?


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## Starbuck_II (Nov 7, 2008)

Animal said:


> i already have to spend three feats to get into SD PrC. this build is already feat intensive and i just won't be able to pick all the fighter feats until late teens. anyway when i'll be sudden striking enemies will be denied their dex bonus, so that may help a bit. as for feats i think i'll be looking for something that doesn't give plain bonuses but gives some extra abilities and choices. like Pharaoh Fist (iirc) for crowd control or some tactical feats.



 Did you consider enemy rogues, Barbarians, Blind Fight, etc? Uncanny Dodge!
You can't use sudden strike on them with hide in plain sight or invisibility.

You need Feint, Grease (denies them dex to AC while balancing), etc.
Invisible Blade in CW lets you Fient for as a swift action 

or 

Stormwreck has a Prc called Scarlet Corsair (free action but recharge time like how a Dragon must wait Xd4 rounds).


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## Shin Okada (Nov 7, 2008)

Animal said:


> that's an interesting idea. but is it worth losing a level?




It depends on campaign and availability of magic items.

But as ninja can't take UMD as a class skill, ninja will be benefited from this level much.

Wands will give you really various options. Invisibility and Greater Invisibility will complement your limited Ki power use per day. Silence may be your friend, too. Also, depend on your race, you can use Darkvision or Low-light vision spells to gain visions you don't usually have. Blacklight spell (Spell Compendium) can create an area of total darkness in which only you can see things normally. For movement, you can use Dimension Door, Expeditious Retreat, Fly & Haste.

And wands may give you options against critters immune to Sudden Strike. Say, using Fireball against undead monsters.

Also, there are various low-level touch attack spells and ranged touch attack spells. As you can add SS damage bonus, wands of those spells could be useful.


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## Runestar (Nov 7, 2008)

Shin Okada said:


> If you are a power gamer, taking a level of Fighter and Martial Stalker feat (Comp Scoundrel) is not a bad idea, too. You can add up fighter and ninja levels for qualifying feats which require a minimum fighter level. So you can take feats such as Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Melee Weapon Mastery (PHB II). Bonuses from those feats are effective against enemies immune to your sudden strike damages.



What's so power-gamer'ish about that? If anything, that seems woefully underpowered to me. Weapon focus/spec are very weak feats normally not worth wasting precious feat slots on.


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## Shin Okada (Nov 7, 2008)

Runestar said:


> What's so power-gamer'ish about that? If anything, that seems woefully underpowered to me. Weapon focus/spec are very weak feats normally not worth wasting precious feat slots on.




Not so munchkin. Just going all out for simple attack/damage bonuses instead of building around some nifty tricks.

Well, whether if Weapon Focus tree worth or not depends on DM and campaign. Or more specifically, what kind of opponents you meet, and how often you fight between each rest. If your DM throw descent to high AC opponents often, anything improves attack bonus worth more than any other feats for melee/ranged combatants. While many of the fancy tricks (such as super charger builds or some super attack per day builds) occasionally let you do something devastating, pure attack bonus and damage bonus are almost always useful.


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## Stormborn (Nov 7, 2008)

Animal said:


> i'm lawful neutral. and its really a good idea actually. 2 levels of monk and Ascetic Stalker are a very interesting choice. can't believe i've missed out that feat! wisdom synergy, evasion, unarmed damage progression, stunning fist to stun peeps for SS. wow i'm almost sold on it.
> maybe i should also take improved disarm and beat people to death with their own weapons?




See, I think that the ninja/monk combo is the perfect chocie for an infiltrator assassin type.  You get stopped at the city gate by the guards, so what, you aren't carrying any weapons.  Other than farm implements. 

Of course if you do want to go totally xuixia and can take feats from Eberron you take alevel of fighter along with it, two weapon fighting, and the feat that lets you flurry with long swords.

Or just stick with ninja/mon/shadow dancer.


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## Animal (Nov 10, 2008)

starbuck, shin okada, thanks for your advice guys. those options are interesting but i just don't want optimization to go too far. i mean ninja/scarlet corsair or ninja/cleric? it doesn't really fit the character concept. so i guess i'll have to find another way to deal with barbarians and rogues. (anyways, who takes more than one lvl of barbarian nowadays? ). invisible blade is better but still very hard to meet the prereqs. and even if i do, i'll run out of feat for SD.

stormborn, no eberron material allowed. guess i'll have to stick to ninja/monk/SD for the time being.


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## Stormborn (Nov 18, 2008)

So, has the build seen play?


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## Kurashu (Nov 19, 2008)

Umbral Disciple is an awesome prestige class from Magic of Incarnum. It's monky+sneaky. Three levels gets you hide in plain sight and concealment and some sneak attack. Too bad you don't use ToB, shadow sun ninja is pretty awesome as well. Swordsage by itself is zogm for this. Oh well.

You may want to look into Dread Commando if you have Heroes of Battle. Avenging Executioner, Combat Trapsmith and Uncanny Trickster are all good choices to augment your combat as well each are from Complete Scoundrel. In Complete Adventurer there is Nightsong Inflitrator and Nightsong Enforcer.


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## pawsplay (Nov 19, 2008)

The thing about ninja invisibility is that it lasts for one round. Thus, you really should be thinking about full-round attacks using two weapons and possibly Fighter specialization feats. It's not the only way to go, but it's definitely worth thinking about. Ninja X/SD 1 is good in that respect, add Fighter to taste.


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## Animal (Nov 20, 2008)

Stormborn said:


> So, has the build seen play?



not yet. i'm play a 2nd level ninja right now. planning to take 2 monk levels next. then some more ninja and eventually SD.



> Umbral Disciple is an awesome prestige class from Magic of Incarnum.



noone in my group has MoI. 



> You may want to look into Dread Commando if you have Heroes of Battle.



i considered this option from the very beginning (see my first post), but i'm afraid that Dread Commando won't synergize well with monk..



> The thing about ninja invisibility is that it lasts for one round. Thus, you really should be thinking about full-round attacks using two weapons and possibly Fighter specialization feats. It's not the only way to go, but it's definitely worth thinking about. Ninja X/SD 1 is good in that respect, add Fighter to taste.



a caster in our party plans to go for War Weaver so i don't expect problems with invisibility on high levels.


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## insanogeddon (Mar 10, 2009)

*Ninja Experience*

I played a ninja once, he was the most fun I had in ages.  He was a Human (had to be) Ninja 16, Ftr 4.  With a longspear and became known as 'the spearman'.  He put NO ranks in hide or move silently as we are all aware ninjas are ALWAYS seen and make a swooshing sound but can at will dissapear.  He used to jump most everywhere utterly spectacularly never having issues with terrain due to that and had a nasty jump attack that usually locked down a foe. The first level had to be fighter to fulfill all my needs but skill points were never an issue it went F1, N2-7, F2, N1, F1, N10:  FB1.Wpn.Focus longspear, B. Power Attack, 1 personal fun, 3.Martial Stalker, 6. Specialisation, 9. Staggering Strike, FB2. Raptor School (+4 dam), 12. Leap Attack, FB12 Weapon Mastery
Lunging Strike, Short Haft, C.Ref, Expert Tactician wera all on the cards but I found they were irrelevant in the face of my ninja powers and so retrained them eventually.


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## Darklone (Mar 10, 2009)

That spear build looks nice. Combine it with a level monk, that ascetic stalker for monk/ninja multiclassing and then get that Eberron feat that let's you flurry with a spear... 

Flurrying with a twohanded weapon and Power Attack... 

Edit: Would this build be possible with that Greatspear... and Exotic Weapon Master? Books to me...


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## insanogeddon (Mar 11, 2009)

*Nice*

Nice idea would be possible with greatspear and an exotic weapon master dip for x2 str damage. Unfort not enough feats and my dm is tight on custom items and sunder (or slime) pops up occasionally and exotic weapons are rarely found (we have a random item generator).  Also due to our dm stricktly sticking to treasure limits if I combined flurry with power attack and the ninjas medium BAB I might have missed alot.  I preferred jumping about one shot owning the battlefield.

I found a special spear wasn't necessary. I would jump in (swooshing with special 20gp extra 'swooshy' pants) doing d8 +2 (spec) +3 (strx1.5)+3 (str item x1.5) +2 (wpn mastery) +2 (majic spear) + 4 (raptor school) + 6 (2pts of power attack from charge processed thru power attack and leap attack) = d8 + 22 + 6d6 (sudden strike: 1st round I was always invisible due to a ring of invisibility) and then thru 'staggering strike' (complete adventurer) the speared had to do a fort DC (damage dealt!) or be staggered for 1 round.  
1 round being more than enough to go mcstabby, assume a 'ninja pose', tumble, or jump away/to the next target or (if patronising) to the far door to open it letting your mage/warrior followers 'mop up'.  Also at any point I could use my ninja powers to turn invisible again as a swift action.

Nothing quite like jumping over the mages 'meat shields' and impaling the eggshell artillery and having the door open before your team make it across the chamber (NB: not always the best tactic for survival.... untill you can turn ethereal).  

Even better that in our group I was only ever expected me to be a 'sneaky trap finder' till they realised my light weight changed combat outcomes and as I was to all audio appearances as sneaky as a cellophane gollem (when things did dissappear ..etherally.. it: 'couldn't have been me you would have heard me').


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