# What is the status of Cormyr in 5e?



## bmfrosty (Mar 1, 2017)

Been looking for this and can't seem to find anything newer than this:

https://www.wizards.com/files/365_Backdrop_Cormyr.pdf

Thanks!

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## TwoSix (Mar 1, 2017)

Restrained.


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## WarpedAcorn (Mar 1, 2017)

I wouldn't mind knowing either. I'm thinking of starting my next Campaign there, but my knowledge of Cormyr is....dated. I remember Azoun ruling and Alusair and Caladnei being up and commers, but now there is a Child-King and Alusair is dead?


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## Pauper (Mar 1, 2017)

Erin Evans's novel 'Fire in the Blood' is set in Cormyr post-Sundering, and even contains a family tree going back to Azoun V and Filfaeril from 3E.

Spoiler alert: In the current Realms timeline, Cormyr has a queen, not a king.

--
Pauper


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## bmfrosty (Mar 1, 2017)

I'm good with this.  Cormyr is still a power.  Not destroyed.  Has a queen.  Everything else I can pull from the 2008 document.

Really looking at a character concept for a knight, and Cormyr seems to be the type of place that has knights and a royal hierarchy.


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## aco175 (Mar 2, 2017)

I think SCAG has the Purple Dragon knight class in it.  

I too find the lack of updated material to 5e to be a miss on Wizard's part.  I know they have their model for putting out material and that is fine, but I would like a bit more.  I know DMsGuild can make and cover all of FR now, but many people do not want things not put out by Wizards to be taken as canon.  Even a Dragon+ article on updating things would be great.


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## doctorbadwolf (Mar 2, 2017)

aco175 said:


> I think SCAG has the Purple Dragon knight class in it.
> 
> I too find the lack of updated material to 5e to be a miss on Wizard's part.  I know they have their model for putting out material and that is fine, but I would like a bit more.  I know DMsGuild can make and cover all of FR now, but many people do not want things not put out by Wizards to be taken as canon.  Even a Dragon+ article on updating things would be great.




Agreed. They shook up the Realms again, and then didn't update how that affected most of the Realms.


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## ccs (Mar 2, 2017)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Agreed. They shook up the Realms again, and then didn't update how that affected most of the Realms.




Because that's for us players & DMs to decide.


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## Onslaught (Mar 2, 2017)

SCAG also has a few lines on Cormyr.

But AFAIK, the Realms are today what they were in 3E. 

Almost all changes from 4e were reversed (thank god), and when things couldn't just be reversed/retconned, they were placed in a way that seemed like "things going back to what they were"... 

Anyway, I'd also like a bit more info than what we've seen in SCAG (yet to read SKT). But until then, just grab old stuff and go with it


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## Al2O3 (Mar 2, 2017)

If you want to use 5e canon for Cormyr then [MENTION=17607]Pauper[/MENTION] is right: Fire in the Blood is the source.

Some spoilers ahead:

The Queen is young, unmarried, a war hero, needs heirs but might not mind if they are bastards. During the the war against Sembia and shade she redistributed wealth from nobles unwilling to fight and gave to commoners willing to. Her brother was king but abdicated ASAP. The Queen is pragmatic and puts Cormyr before all. You do NOT want to suggest that she is unfit to rule.

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## dagger (Mar 2, 2017)

Its pretty much the same as in the 3e FRCS just a different ruler.

Do what I do, run it as in the Grey Box, 2e box, or 3e FRCS book. The 4e crap never happened, so there is nothing to figure out.


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## dagger (Mar 2, 2017)

ccs said:


> Because that's for us players & DMs to decide.




Its always been that way, but some people like official material.


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## Demetrios1453 (Mar 2, 2017)

Onslaught said:


> SCAG also has a few lines on Cormyr.
> 
> But AFAIK, the Realms are today what they were in 3E.
> 
> ...



Honestly, if they just were to do something like "SCAG II: The Rest of the Realms", that would be just fine. A nice overview with unreliable narrators to give us what the rest of the setting looks like in broad strokes. There isn't any need for down-to-the-city-block-level of detail (although I wouldn't object if they were to do that!), but just enough so we have general overall detail while allowing for DM creativity...

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## Onslaught (Mar 2, 2017)

Demetrios1453 said:


> Honestly, if they just were to do something like "SCAG II: The Rest of the Realms", that would be just fine. A nice overview with unreliable narrators to give us what the rest of the setting looks like in broad strokes. There isn't any need for down-to-the-city-block-level of detail (although I wouldn't object if they were to do that!), but just enough so we have general overall detail while allowing for DM creativity...





Completely agree with you, Sir.

I do kind-of-miss the excessive detail of 3E FRCS, but the overview given in SCAG is great entry-point for interesting locations and NPCs without being overwhelming (like FRCS was, frankly... even the font size was smaller than other 3E books for god's sake).

"SCAG 2: A Guide to Everywhere not SwordCoast" would've been great... and could be a nice source of backgrounds and archetypes for eastern culutres (Rashamen, Thay, Halruaa, Calimshan and other stuff). 

They could even review the shi**y Genasi from Princes *sigh*

But I digress...


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## doctorbadwolf (Mar 2, 2017)

dagger said:


> Its pretty much the same as in the 3e FRCS just a different ruler.
> 
> Do what I do, run it as in the Grey Box, 2e box, or 3e FRCS book. The 4e crap never happened, so there is nothing to figure out.




Whereas I run it as mostly 4e with some adjustment as time has moved on and my PCs have impacted the world. And gods came back and some other stuff, and I do use bits of the current canon here and there. 

Which is fine, but I'd be more inclined to care about the setting at all anymore if there was a full updated canon.
 As it is,  I haven't even bought SCAG, because I see no reason to actually invest in the setting at this point.


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## MiraMels (Mar 3, 2017)

dagger said:


> Its pretty much the same as in the 3e FRCS just a different ruler.
> 
> Do what I do, run it as in the Grey Box, 2e box, or 3e FRCS book. The 4e crap never happened, so there is nothing to figure out.




The problem with this approach is that 4th edition covered about a hundred years or so, and the event that reverted everything back for 5th edition happened about maybe five to ten years prior to when the 5th edition AL modules and hardback campaigns are currently set. So, from the perspective of folk living in the Realms, the only people who can remember, first hand, what things were like in 3rd edition are, minimum, 150 years old or so. 

I run a lot of current published material, and i wish i had more guidance from Wizards for what the transition was like, and how to portray folk who lived through it.


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## CAFRedblade (Mar 3, 2017)

You can always look over the forums at Candlekeep.com or there is an FR wiki online I reference for some things.  But other than the SCAG book, and the DND Next adventure modules detailing the Sundering, not much new in FR. Like others have mentioned, kinda back to a status quo pre 4th, but with a different (mostly) cast of actors.


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## Sorcerers Apprentice (Mar 4, 2017)

Al2O3 said:


> If you want to use 5e canon for Cormyr then [MENTION=17607]Pauper[/MENTION] is right: Fire in the Blood is the source.
> 
> Some spoilers ahead:
> 
> ...



So a typical power fantasy character aimed at teenage readers?


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## Al2O3 (Mar 4, 2017)

Sorcerers Apprentice said:


> So a typical power fantasy character aimed at teenage readers?



Not quite, and I might have simplified too much. E.g. by "unmarried" I meant "widowed" and by "might not even care if the kids are bastards" I meant "might not even want children but will make sure to get them to secure the line of succession".

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## MiraMels (Mar 4, 2017)

Sorcerers Apprentice said:


> So a typical power fantasy character aimed at teenage readers?




i mean, yes. But your tone seems to suggest disapproval or dismissal. I'm not sure why that's a bad thing?


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## Eltab (Mar 5, 2017)

If Cormyr is not going to be the "Imperial Cormyr" from pre-Sundering, then the core Kingdom will be surrounded by allies - think 1945-1990 USSR and the Warsaw Pact nations.

Not necessarily willing allies, and maybe not able to really do much on their own, but when Cormyr Speaks, they will listen and they will follow suit.
This, rather than the Cormyrian noble houses, is where I would place a lot of "seditious plotting and rabble-rousing".

And, not being inexperienced in the art of political intrigue, Cormyr uses the Minor Ally governments to provide support to pro-Cormyr forces in other nearby lands.  Plausible deniability, you know.


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## Derren (Mar 5, 2017)

MiraMels said:


> i mean, yes. But your tone seems to suggest disapproval or dismissal. I'm not sure why that's a bad thing?




Why not use believable characters instead of a checklist for teenagers


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## Corpsetaker (Mar 5, 2017)

ccs said:


> Because that's for us players & DMs to decide.




Which is what a lot of people do not want to do. People want to add their own bits and pieces to the Realms but do not want to touch the overall structure. 

It's lazy practice on Wizard's part.


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## Derren (Mar 5, 2017)

Corpsetaker said:


> Which is what a lot of people do not want to do. People want to add their own bits and pieces to the Realms but do not want to touch the overall structure.
> 
> It's lazy practice on Wizard's part.




It was  first and foremost a genius marketing stroke to convince players that the release of untested and unfinished rules and lore was a good thing because they can now modify them (which they were perfectly able to do in previous, finished rules iterations but not forced to).

Less work and cost for you and the fanbase applauds you for releasing something unfinished.


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## Corpsetaker (Mar 5, 2017)

Derren said:


> It was  first and foremost a genius marketing stroke to convince players that the release of untested and unfinished rules and lore was a good thing because they can now modify them (which they were perfectly able to do in previous, finished rules iterations but not forced to).
> 
> Less work and cost for you and the fanbase applauds you for releasing something unfinished.




Well it's sad that people are so now a days duped so easily. Kind of like how a lot of people in the world have such bad taste in music that the market is absolutely flooded with it.


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## Prism (Mar 5, 2017)

Derren said:


> It was  first and foremost a genius marketing stroke to convince players that the release of untested and unfinished rules and lore was a good thing because they can now modify them (which they were perfectly able to do in previous, finished rules iterations but not forced to).
> 
> Less work and cost for you and the fanbase applauds you for releasing something unfinished.




Are you suggesting that 5e was untested before release? What were you doing for the two years before it came out?

The lore is unfinished yes. A combination between not having the staff and time to create more than they need and a lack of people who would buy it maybe. It would be interesting to know how well SCAG sold maybe. That will probably influence whether they will release any more content like that


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## Al2O3 (Mar 5, 2017)

Derren said:


> Why not use believable characters instead of a checklist for teenagers



It certainly is not a checklist for teenagers in this case. From reading the actual novels I am more reminded about the Swedish kings (queen) Kristina and Charles XI or maybe British Queen Elizabeth I.

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## Derren (Mar 5, 2017)

Prism said:


> Are you suggesting that 5e was untested before release? What were you doing for the two years before it came out?




The stealth rules certainly were for example. So the question is, what were they doing the 2 years before its release?


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## Prism (Mar 5, 2017)

Derren said:


> The stealth rules certainly were for example. So the question is, what were they doing the 2 years before its release?




Well the stealth rules were in the playtest documents by the end, although I don't remember when they made their first appearance - certainly a year before release. Maybe we were too busy worrying about class balance to explore them in full detail. That said, I prefer the 5e light rules than lets say the 4e detailed rules mainly because I prefer stealth to be a DM judgement call rather than hard coded.


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## aco175 (Mar 5, 2017)

I have no problem with taking a non-Wizards employee's update of something on FR from DMsGuild.  If someone takes up updating the royal lineage of Cormyr and provides a decent history and factions why wouldn't I?  I know a lot of people may not like it since if is not official, but my game would be better since I would not need to do the work.  Same thing goes for design of the castle or a border lord's conflict with a neighboring kingdom.  These could be adventure modules or just conversion supplements, but I would think more people would get on board if they were modules that they could build off.

I still think that Wizards should put something out touching the major parts of the world.  For Cormyr it could be how the kingdom changed in a few paragraphs and a few leadership NPCs like the King/Queen, royal wizard, a few leading nobles and a for good contact NPCs.  Maybe a list of noble houses with a few names of people in each house that can help get ideas flowing.  This could be done with 4-5 pages in a Dragon+ article.  Same thing but even less with other kingdoms that have never gotten the love like Sword Coast and Cormyr has gotten all these years.


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## MiraMels (Mar 5, 2017)

Derren said:


> Why not use believable characters instead of a checklist for teenagers




The principle characters in Erin Evans' series are two teenaged girls and their adoptive father.  Why is young women having a feel-good fantasy adventure book written with them in mind something worthy of your scorn and derision?


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## Derren (Mar 5, 2017)

MiraMels said:


> The principle characters in Erin Evans' series are two teenaged girls and their adoptive father.  Why is young women having a feel-good fantasy adventure book written with them in mind something worthy of your scorn and derision?




Because this "feel-good" fantasy book also affects a RPG setting where verisimilitude is a tad bit more important than for a generic young adult fantasy novel.


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## Al2O3 (Mar 5, 2017)

Derren said:


> Because this "feel-good" fantasy book also affects a RPG setting where verisimilitude is a tad bit more important than for a generic young adult fantasy novel.



Of all the Forgotten Realms novels I've read I think the ones in question are least problematic on that account. The attitude is to find plot holes and plug them (such as everything related to Dragonborn).

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## MiraMels (Mar 5, 2017)

Derren said:


> Because this "feel-good" fantasy book also affects a RPG setting where verisimilitude is a tad bit more important than for a generic young adult fantasy novel.




Verisimilitude. Forgive my directness, but have you actually read Erin Evans' series? Out of any of the Realms' novelists, she gives the most time and attention to detailed depictions of conversation and locations. She does this consistently throughout her novels, and they give you an amazing sense of everyday life in the Realms. She has an amazing sense of verisimilitude, and a healthy respect for the source material. She's not running roughshod over the Realms Canon. Ed Greenwood worked with her as she wrote these. She is the canon. 

To return to the thread topic: Fire in the Blood, by Erin M Evans is an amazing resource for DM's looking for to run a game that includes Cormyr as anything more involved than a backdrop to handle equipment transactions, quest hook distribution, and the occasional tavern scene. 

I'd recommend it over the 3rd edition campaign setting, the 4th edition Backdrop Cormyr pdf, and Volo's Guide to Cormyr (which hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet).


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## Jeremy E Grenemyer (Mar 5, 2017)

Derren said:


> Because this "feel-good" fantasy book also affects a RPG setting where verisimilitude is a tad bit more important than for a generic young adult fantasy novel.



Given the fact that Erin has searched high and low for all Realmslore relating to Comryr--including finding the tiny corner of the internet where I had been working on a detailed and updated listing of all the rooms in the Royal Palace of the Purple Dragon, Suzail, Cormyr--in order to write her novels, and given the fact that her first comments to me during a private chat involved how much she enjoyed diving into the material (read: researching Realmslore on Cormyr), I find your comment to be both misinformed and hostile. 

The only thing worse than snark is uninformed snark; it just makes you look bad. 

Realms novels, when done correctly, are an excellent source of material for DMs looking to run believable, immersive campaigns, and of the sort their players will never forget. If you're really interested in verisimilitude, then you ought to read one of Erin's works. 

********

ON TOPIC:

The only work I have done for Cormyr on the DMs Guild is * "Cormyr In The Year of the Ageless One"*, which focuses on Cormyr in the year 1479 DR, and so is about 10-12 years behind the current time in the setting.

I very much want to start another sourcebook for modern day Cormyr, but time and circumstances have put that work on hold (for now).


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## Jeremy E Grenemyer (Mar 12, 2017)

Sorry, double post.


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## hastur_nz (Mar 13, 2017)

As far as "Cannon" goes, everything in 4e did happen, and the only "reversal" via 5e was that the Second Sundering reversed a lot of the physical changes that the Spellplague inflicted upon Faerun etc.  As noted earlier, 4e moved the time-line forward about 100 years to DR 1479; 5e has moved the time-line forward only a few more years, so whatever History you can find from 4e, isn't far off the mark...  For example, the 4e players guide has a little info, and the DM's campaign book has a lot more, about the whole of Faerun.

The "public beta" for 5e was set around DR 1482-1484, with the arrival of the "Chosen", the return of Bhaal, etc - see Madness in Baldur's Gate, Legacy of the Crystal Shard, Scourge of the Sword Coast, etc.  PHB, SCAG, new published adventures for 5e etc are set from DR 1487+, the end of the Second Sundering.  WoTC have deliberately focused mainly on the Sword Coast (like the original focused primarily on the Dales), and kept most things pretty vague, in order to try and avoid "cannon" cramping people's style.  At least that's my interpretation.

On a personal level, I think it's a real shame that 4e advanced the timeline by 100 years, effectively wiping out most of the old source material's specific NPCs etc.  But what's done is done...


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## doctorbadwolf (Mar 13, 2017)

Derren said:


> Why not use believable characters instead of a checklist for teenagers




It is a believable character. 

Could you try to explain your specific objection? 

Do you perhaps labor under the false belief that teenagers are incapable idiots, or the even less true belief that teenage rulers haven't both existed and been pretty similar to the described ruler, or different but equally effective and "badass", in the actual really real world?


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## machineelf (Mar 13, 2017)

Onslaught said:


> But AFAIK, the Realms are today what they were in 3E.
> 
> Almost all changes from 4e were reversed (thank god) ...




Except, most of the NPCs are long dead, and a lot of the political history of various places have changed.

I hate, hate that they advanced the timeline 100 years and made so many changes to the Forgotten Realms. That's why I just stick with the 1369 or 1372 time of the Realms. There's also tons of information on the realms from back then, and I don't think WOTC are interested in producing that kind of complete information on the realms again anytime soon.


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## machineelf (Mar 13, 2017)

hastur_nz said:


> On a personal level, I think it's a real shame that 4e advanced the timeline by 100 years, effectively wiping out most of the old source material's specific NPCs etc.  But what's done is done...




Completely agree. It's a real shame they mucked around with the setting and advanced the timeline. So many classic NPCs gone. I just stick to the pre-4th edition Forgotten Realms and pretend like the changes they made to the Realms never happened. It means that I have to heavily modify any Realms adventures they put out, but so be it.


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## Ancalagon (Mar 13, 2017)

So erm... what happened during 4e? Is there a short synopsis somewhere?

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## Onslaught (Mar 13, 2017)

secondhander said:


> Except, most of the NPCs are long dead, and a lot of the political history of various places have changed.




You mean... the ones that didn't just survived, reincarnated or basically came back from wherever they were hiding?

And the political history might have changed, but the status came back to what it were in 3e.



secondhander said:


> I hate, hate that they advanced the timeline 100 years and made so many changes to the Forgotten Realms. That's why I just stick with the 1369 or 1372 time of the Realms. There's also tons of information on the realms from back then, and I don't think WOTC are interested in producing that kind of complete information on the realms again anytime soon.



Jokes aside... 

I also hate the 100-years advance. They had to keep it moving instead of just retconning it because the Realms is a setting that always go forward... and that was kind of the major problem with the Realms back then, it must go forward so there's this ton of books, novels and Yearly Realms Shaking Events... 

Nontheless, I just bought a 3e-era book collection of FR 'cos I didn't had the money back then hahahahaha


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## Jeremy E Grenemyer (Mar 14, 2017)

Ancalagon said:


> So erm... what happened during 4e? Is there a short synopsis somewhere?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using EN World mobile app



The free article linked to at the start of this thread (in the OP) includes a brief timeline to Cormyr over the century gap. 

I believe the Scribes at the Candlekeep forums have put together a timeline for the Realms over the 100 year gap.


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## machineelf (Mar 14, 2017)

Onslaught said:


> You mean... the ones that didn't just survived, reincarnated or basically came back from wherever they were hiding?




Well, the elf NPCs and other long-lived races are still around.  But yeah, a lot of classic human and other NPCs from across Faerun are gone. And I liked Mirt the Moneylender, Khelben Blackstaff, and others.

I don't think that just because books are written that alter the campaign universe, that that means the campaign universe in which table-top role-players play in has to be changed to match the books. I see no problem with having the books branch off an alternate reality of the Forgotten Realms, but the playable campaign setting always starts in a certain year with a certain history, so that your own campaign universe can branch off in whatever direction you and your players determine. 

When they force the campaign setting to drastically change along with the books, they run into the problem we have now.

I would love them to reset the Realms back to 1369 or 1372 DR, and publish all-new modules that expand (not change) the old ones, so that all of Faerun is covered and we get all-new maps of every region. That will never, ever happen, so instead I just collect the classic modules and maps, and my Realms always start in the summer of 1372 DR.


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## Demetrios1453 (Mar 14, 2017)

secondhander said:


> Well, the elf NPCs and other long-lived races are still around.  But yeah, a lot of classic human and other NPCs from across Faerun are gone. And I liked Mirt the Moneylender, Khelben Blackstaff, and others.
> 
> I don't think that just because books are written that alter the campaign universe, that that means the campaign universe in which table-top role-players play in has to be changed to match the books. I see no problem with having the books branch off an alternate reality of the Forgotten Realms, but the playable campaign setting always starts in a certain year with a certain history, so that your own campaign universe can branch off in whatever direction you and your players determine.
> 
> When they force the campaign setting to drastically change along with the books, they run into the problem we have now.




Actually, it was the other way round - when 4e came around, the game designers made the decision for the 100-year skip, and forced the novel writers to go along. From what I understand, when they told Greenwood and Salvatore, they were not pleased for the very reasons you mention - their human characters simply would die, by old age at the very least, as a result of the change.


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## doctorbadwolf (Mar 14, 2017)

Ancalagon said:


> So erm... what happened during 4e? Is there a short synopsis somewhere?





The world got rekt by a magical storm called the Spellplague, as a result of Mystra dying on her home plane, with no one to take her place and no backup plan, which caused magic to explode. 

Anyway, 100 years passed, the Realms recovered, things were different (mostly better IMO, but others vehemently disagree), Netheril came back and established a new seat of power, and entered a sort of Cold War with Cormyr and her allies, and a ton of other stuff. 

IMO, the 4e Realms is vastly better setting, but enough people lost their minds over the changes that for 5e, they brought in the "Sundering", rekt the Realms again, but this time every dumb change just "happened" to revert things back to the status quo before 4e. For example, 4e had "earth motes", which were floating islands in the sky, and they all fell down or disappeared in the sunderererering. 
Another example: Netheril's floating cities got blown up, one conveniently crashing into Myth Drannor so that it could go back to being dangerous ruins, the desert magically went back to desert, and the Netherese scattered and just basically overnight stopped being a political entity of any kind.

Oh! and most of the Dragonborn and Genasi that were more populated in 4e disappeared. (there isn't even an emoji for this.) 

And the Dragonborn that are left? Well, Unther came back (yeah, it was gone) and is now zealously dedicated to eradicating the Dragonborn of Tymanther, which is a nation that used to exist where Unther used to be, who believed that their coming to Toril had destroyed Unther, and thus named their new nation in honor of Unther, and their old homeland of Tymanchebar. A sliver of Tymanther is still around, so...thanks devs for that, I guess? (nope.) Only, this sliver is in constant threat of invasion from Unther, because the Unther..ians? want to wipe them out and take back what is "theirs". 

But at least Helm and Mask are back, amirite? OK seriously, I am glad they're back. In my home Realms game they are now reluctant allies, because they came back in a series of events that didn't erase years of canon while insisting that it isn't a retcon, and the circumstances of those events pitted them and their followers against common enemies, on Abier, on Toril, and in the Mirror Planes. 

Also, they both gained Draconic/dragonborn aspects in the process, and Abierians may have started worshipping them, which may or may not threaten the return of the  to that world.


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## machineelf (Mar 15, 2017)

doctorbadwolf said:


> IMO, the 4e Realms is vastly better setting




Opinions vary. But even if you do love the 4e Realms, there just isn't a lot of detailed info about the various regions of the world like there was with the older Realms modules and material.

I'm an older guy, but I'm not really a grognard because even though I played around with D&D a little bit as a kid, I didn't really get into it until about 5 years ago. I eventually wanted to get some more information about Waterdeep, because my players were going there to spend some time. So I got the old Waterdeep and the North module, as well as Volo's Guide to Waterdeep. That led me to get the gorgeous old map of Waterdeep and get it laminated. And I started to learn about these classic, interesting characters in the city. 

From there, I began to collect older modules of the Realms. I learned that it's so big, but so diverse and interesting. So I've begun to collect all the information, and all the maps, I can of the entire continent. I'm getting pretty close to my goal. Maybe this does actually make me a grognard. I'll wear it proudly.

The beauty of it is the massive amount of information that's out there. So even though I wasn't really into D&D at the beginning of 4th edition, I completely understand the aggravation of someone who's collected and learned all that information about this classic campaign setting, to only have it completely upended by a 100-year move into the future, and big political and geographic changes.

And even if you wanted to collect detailed information about the current Realms and the various regions of the continent, you can't because they haven't produced new modules for all those various areas (as far as I know). You're only going to be left with the brief overviews of various areas you get in the general 4th Edition Campaign Guide.

For those reasons, I'm happy to stick to the classic Realms materials and maps. I'm just not interested in any of the changes they've made.

I think it largely depends on what you got into when you first got into the Realms, though. If you (and I don't know if this applies to you specifically or not) got into the Realms during 4th edition, and learned everything from that perspective, then that might be the version you really gravitate to and prefer. If someone has been playing since they were a kid and learned the Realms from all the AD&D modules, and that's the Realms they've learned to love, then obviously they wouldn't be happy to have that changed. That feeling you feel about how they changed 4th edition after the second sundering or whatever, is probably the same feeling older Realms fans felt when they first introduce the 4th edition changes. But really, all these changes over the years over-complicates the setting. Another reason I personally prefer the original material developed for AD&D.


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## doctorbadwolf (Mar 15, 2017)

I can say that for me, I got into the Realms by reading Elminster books, and played in the Realms during 2e, but didn't really get into it until 3.5 era, and got way more into it with 4e, because I just enjoys the world it presented more. 

That said, in case you are ever curious, there is a fricken ton of 4e realmslore. It's spread around amongst the FR campaign guide and players guide, Neverwinter campaign guide, and a ton of Dragon mag and Dungeon mag articles. And novels. 

The scholars at candlekeep can probably tell ya where specifically to look.


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## Ancalagon (Mar 15, 2017)

So it sounds like if someone has a good collection of 2e and 3e stuff, it's a good alternative to 5e since it reverted a lot of changes...

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using EN World mobile app


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## dagger (Mar 16, 2017)

Ancalagon said:


> So it sounds like if someone has a good collection of 2e and 3e stuff, it's a good alternative to 5e since it reverted a lot of changes...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using EN World mobile app




Exactly....its easy to pretend the 4e change never happened AND you can still use the 5e FR stuff if you want.


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## Jeremy E Grenemyer (Mar 16, 2017)

Ancalagon said:


> So it sounds like if someone has a good collection of 2e and 3e stuff, it's a good alternative to 5e since it reverted a lot of changes...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using EN World mobile app




As it relates to Cormyr, having a good collection of 2E and 3E books helps to run a campaign there every bit as easily for 4E as for 5E.

Cormyr fared better than a lot if other places in the Realms when it comes to the Spellplague.


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## doctorbadwolf (Mar 16, 2017)

Jeremy E Grenemyer said:


> As it relates to Cormyr, having a good collection of 2E and 3E books helps to run a campaign there every bit as easily for 4E as for 5E.
> 
> Cormyr fared better than a lot if other places in the Realms when it comes to the Spellplague.



Yeah, and I ignored the weird prison city thing. That was a stupid decision.


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## Onslaught (Mar 17, 2017)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Yeah, and I ignored the weird prison city thing. That was a stupid decision.




What was that?


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## aco175 (Mar 17, 2017)

To me, it does seem that 5e tried to bring in (or back) a more dangerous place to adventure in.  A lot of the daily magic was gone and protective mythals are gone to make places more dangerous or dark.  I see where a lot of the people cowered in the cities over the last 100 years leaving the small towns to fall or struggle to survive where monsters are on the rise.  

It makes a better setting to adventure in.


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## Onslaught (Mar 17, 2017)

Oddly enought, 4E had all that "Points of Light" pholosophy that 5E FR seems to embrace (even better than 4E)


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## doctorbadwolf (Mar 17, 2017)

Onslaught said:


> Oddly enought, 4E had all that "Points of Light" pholosophy that 5E FR seems to embrace (even better than 4E)




I think the "even better" part of that is questionable at best, but yes, 4e FR is what made FR a more dangerous place. 

Anyway, from the wiki on Wheloon, in answer to your question a couple comments up:

"
Post-Spellplague

Sometime after the Spellplague in 1385 DR, the Purple Dragons determined that a large number of Whelunians were secretly Shar-worshipers, and the current king of Cormyr feared Wheloon was a front for Netherese spies. The king decreed that it be transformed into a prison city, all those inside sealed in by brick and magic and prisoners for life. Suspected worshipers of Shar, Shadovar sympathizers and spies, and any others who offended the crown were put over the wall and left to survive on their own. By 1479 DR, Wheloon was a dark prison city, no longer a trade hub, and the streets were controlled by gangs of thugs."

It's probably the one thing in 4e FR that I just outright said, "No. that didn't happen."


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## Onslaught (Mar 17, 2017)

doctorbadwolf said:


> It's probably the one thing in 4e FR that I just outright said, "No. that didn't happen."




Oh! I understand why... and would also rule the same way hehehe


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## thanson02 (Mar 19, 2017)

Jeremy E Grenemyer said:


> As it relates to Cormyr, having a good collection of 2E and 3E books helps to run a campaign there every bit as easily for 4E as for 5E.
> 
> Cormyr fared better than a lot if other places in the Realms when it comes to the Spellplague.




I would agree for the most part.  I would say both Cormyr and the Dalelands did well and are cleaning up after the war and getting back to normal.  Sembia on the other hand I think had some if the most drastic changes, at least in the North.  It would be interesting to see how relations between them are now.  I have not seen anything official.

Sent from my XT1096 using Tapatalk


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## Al2O3 (Mar 19, 2017)

thanson02 said:


> I would agree for the most part.  I would say both Cormyr and the Dalelands did well and are cleaning up after the war and getting back to normal.  Sembia on the other hand I think had some if the most drastic changes, at least in the North.  It would be interesting to see how relations between them are now.  I have not seen anything official.
> 
> Sent from my XT1096 using Tapatalk



From novels: Cormyr distrust Sembia, but trade has started again. Sembia is looking for status quo ante bellum and blame Shade for everything.

My guesses: The government and society is probably structured whatever way it was pre-spellplauge unless magic was a big part. Lots of rebuilding and trying to regain any former status. Lots of bad and scary stuff happend during Shade, so inhabitants might prefer to try and forget it. Maybe similar to countries that became independent from USSR.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using EN World mobile app


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## thanson02 (Mar 19, 2017)

Al2O3 said:


> From novels: Cormyr distrust Sembia, but trade has started again. Sembia is looking for status quo ante bellum and blame Shade for everything.
> 
> My guesses: The government and society is probably structured whatever way it was pre-spellplauge unless magic was a big part. Lots of rebuilding and trying to regain any former status. Lots of bad and scary stuff happend during Shade, so inhabitants might prefer to try and forget it. Maybe similar to countries that became independent from USSR.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6 using EN World mobile app



That would make sense. I know there were dozens of Shadowfell crossovers that were established during the Spellplague. It would take a while to clean a lot of that up and shut them down, assuming that would even be possible.  I'm assuming it's possible that they might be doing witch hunts as well for any followers of Shar or anyone who they think might be affiliated with the Shadowfell or shades.

Sent from my XT1096 using Tapatalk


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## Zarithar (Jun 20, 2018)

I've had Erin Evan's book on my Kindle for a couple of years now... time to give it a read apparently as my current campaign is set in The Stonelands (northern Cormyr).


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## thanson02 (Jun 26, 2018)

Zarithar said:


> I've had Erin Evan's book on my Kindle for a couple of years now... time to give it a read apparently as my current campaign is set in The Stonelands (northern Cormyr).



Well the war with the Netherese Empire ended with the Sundering so I would assume that there and postwar clean up. People are probably happy to have their lives go back to normal and not be paranoid about assassin's and spies around every corner. I don't know if they're helping Sembia out or not and the restoration efforts. I know that the people of Sembia are working hard to regain their sense of Independence, especially after their occupation.


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## thanson02 (Jun 26, 2018)

thanson02 said:


> Well the war with the Netherese Empire ended with the Sundering so I would assume that there and postwar clean up. People are probably happy to have their lives go back to normal and not be paranoid about assassin's and spies around every corner. I don't know if they're helping Sembia out or not and the restoration efforts. I know that the people of Sembia are working hard to regain their sense of Independence, especially after their occupation.



Wow, my phone did something really goofy. Ignore this last post.


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## gyor (Jun 26, 2018)

Its has simularities to 3e, but it is not the same.

 Not only is there a new ruler, alot of the other major figures are dead or very different.

 Cormyr just won a very brutal war with Shade, warlocks, dragonborn, drow, and Tieflings are more common.

 There are a variety of other differences, a lot happened between 3e Cormyr and 5e Cormyr.


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## Pauper (Jun 27, 2018)

Zarithar said:


> I've had Erin Evan's book on my Kindle for a couple of years now... time to give it a read apparently as my current campaign is set in The Stonelands (northern Cormyr).




It's a solid read; I'd recommend it.

One point for Realms nerds -- I haven't seen anything reversing the destruction of Tilverton by the forces of Shade in 1372 DR. (This was actually a late 3E event, around the time of "War of the Spider Queen", not a 4E event, but given that so much of 4E material is focused around the Shade War in this area, it wouldn't surprise me if a few Realms grognards lump it in as such.)

--
Pauper


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## Istbor (Jun 28, 2018)

doctorbadwolf said:


> I think the "even better" part of that is questionable at best, but yes, 4e FR is what made FR a more dangerous place.
> 
> Anyway, from the wiki on Wheloon, in answer to your question a couple comments up:
> 
> ...




Actually sounds pretty cool, and an interesting place to start or hold a campaign, to me.


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## Ancalagon (Jun 28, 2018)

gyor said:


> Cormyr just won a very brutal war with Shade, warlocks, dragonborn, drow, and Tieflings are more common.



I'm sorry, but the war was against whom, and which is most common? Feels like two sentences would be clearer.


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## gyor (Jun 29, 2018)

Ancalagon said:


> I'm sorry, but the war was against whom, and which is most common? Feels like two sentences would be clearer.




 The war was against Shade,  aka the Netherese Empire. 

 And Waocks and Tieflings are more common now. 

 There are new races like Dragonborn,  Shifters,  and so on. 

 Shadar Kai are now elves now instead of an offshoot of humans. 

 Over a hundred years of history has happened since 3e. 

 A new Queen,  new Nobles,  the Brimstone Angels,  and so on has happened,  Swordmages (Eldrich Knights in 5e)  are a thing.

 New Gods have appeared and olds ones returned from the dead and almost all the Demigods went from being demoted to Exarchs in 4e to being promoted over demigods to to Lesser Gods. 

 New kinds of Warlocks and other strange magivs have appeared including a lot of at will magic,  a form of magic that only existed in like the rare Binders and Warlocks in 3.5e. 

 An Eventual called the Great Rain occurred,  nearly drowning the nations of the Sea of Fallen Stars,  and caused a whole bunch of people to become Storm Sorcerers,  and ended with a magically enhanced harvest. 

Their is more land then there was in 3.5e,  alot more, the Sundering made the Faerun bigger,  things have gotten further apart.

 Various demon lords have run amok,  Dragons,  and Giants have run amok. 

 Resurrection spells can't be relied upon anymore, at least not until after ToA thanks a Greyhawk Liche named Ackrak. 

 The greater geopolitical is radically different. 

 Heck even Abier Toril means something different now,  they added an entire twin planet because Toril wasn't big enough and the two wolrlds have a habit of swapping locations like twin sisters swap clothes. 

 Cormyr is mirrored in the Feywild,  Shadowfell,  Border Ethereal,  and various border Elemental Planes. The Elemental Chaos is a thing.

 I could continue,  this is why when WotC suggests using the 3.5e FRCG to new players of 5e I cringe,  it's useful as a historical document at best,  5e plays to nostoligia,  but it's still it's own beast as it's been shaped by every single edition and it has it's own stuff going on on top of that.


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## gyor (Jun 29, 2018)

Istbor said:


> Actually sounds pretty cool, and an interesting place to start or hold a campaign, to me.




 That practice ended during the Sundering,  so it's over,  but the memory remains.


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## Eltab (Jun 29, 2018)

A thought, for those who like political intrigue campaigns:
4e "Imperial Cormyr" expanded to absorb nearby city-states.  For 5e, Cormyr is supposed to have shrunk back to traditional boundaries.
The nearby city-states will be treated as "buffer zones" or client-states.  Any trouble will have to go through them to get at Cormyr, and Cormyr will have no problem at all quietly sending official strike forces - _or preferably adventurer bands_ - to deal with people / organizations / issues that are still small but too big to ignore.  

The Royal official sponsoring the PCs might even claim to be "keeping alive the tradition of the Steel Regent, who went adventuring in her younger days before ascending to the throne."


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## Istbor (Jun 29, 2018)

gyor said:


> That practice ended during the Sundering,  so it's over,  but the memory remains.




Nah nothing is 'over' at your table until yourself and your group agree it is.


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## gyor (Jun 29, 2018)

Eltab said:


> A thought, for those who like political intrigue campaigns:
> 4e "Imperial Cormyr" expanded to absorb nearby city-states.  For 5e, Cormyr is supposed to have shrunk back to traditional boundaries.
> The nearby city-states will be treated as "buffer zones" or client-states.  Any trouble will have to go through them to get at Cormyr, and Cormyr will have no problem at all quietly sending official strike forces - _or preferably adventurer bands_ - to deal with people / organizations / issues that are still small but too big to ignore.
> 
> The Royal official sponsoring the PCs might even claim to be "keeping alive the tradition of the Steel Regent, who went adventuring in her younger days before ascending to the throne."




 Interesting ideas.


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## gyor (Jun 29, 2018)

Istbor said:


> Nah nothing is 'over' at your table until yourself and your group agree it is.




I'm talking in Canon,  you can do anything at your table, have Communist insurrection against the crown succeed in Cormyr if you want,  or turn 90% of population into Vampires,  or turn the whole country into one giant brothel,  anyghing happen at your table,  but that is very different from Canon.


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## Istbor (Jun 29, 2018)

gyor said:


> I'm talking in Canon,  you can do anything at your table, have Communist insurrection against the crown succeed in Cormyr if you want,  or turn 90% of population into Vampires,  or turn the whole country into one giant brothel,  anyghing happen at your table,  but that is very different from Canon.




Which is why the "at your table" was included in my post.


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## Ancalagon (Jun 29, 2018)

gyor said:


> I'm talking in Canon,  you can do anything at your table, have Communist insurrection against the crown succeed in Cormyr if you want,  or turn 90% of population into Vampires,  or turn the whole country into one giant brothel,  anyghing happen at your table,  but that is very different from Canon.



Is the novel Canon?


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## MiraMels (Jun 30, 2018)

Ancalagon said:


> Is the novel Canon?




_Fire in the Blood_? Yeah, of course it is. Erin Evans worked with Ed Greenwood on the details, and it was published by Wizards of the Coast. Her series is mentioned in the _Dungeon Masters Guide_ and one of the books provides the header quote for tieflings in the _Player's Handbook_.


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## gyor (Jun 30, 2018)

Ancalagon said:


> Is the novel Canon?




 All FR novels are Canon,  Eberron novels specifically aren't.


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## gyor (Jun 30, 2018)

MiraMels said:


> _Fire in the Blood_? Yeah, of course it is. Erin Evans worked with Ed Greenwood on the details, and it was published by Wizards of the Coast. Her series is mentioned in the _Dungeon Masters Guide_ and one of the books provides the header quote for tieflings in the _Player's Handbook_.




 Dragonborn too.


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## Ancalagon (Jun 30, 2018)

gyor said:


> All FR novels are Canon,  Eberron novels specifically aren't.




I reject the notion that I should have to read *novels* to learn the canon of a setting for an rpg game. That is hugely inconvenient.


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## Demetrios1453 (Jun 30, 2018)

Ancalagon said:


> I reject the notion that I should have to read *novels* to learn the canon of a setting for an rpg game. That is hugely inconvenient.




Well, until such time as we get some sort of guide for the region for 5e, it's really the best we've got.


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## gyor (Jun 30, 2018)

Ancalagon said:


> I reject the notion that I should have to read *novels* to learn the canon of a setting for an rpg game. That is hugely inconvenient.




 It's an amazing novel,  as are the rest of the novels in the series,  I highly recommend it.


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## Ancalagon (Jun 30, 2018)

gyor said:


> It's an amazing novel,  as are the rest of the novels in the series,  I highly recommend it.



Oh I believe you.  But a novel is a terrible format for a campaign setting. That's the problem.


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## hastur_nz (Jul 2, 2018)

I agree, but it's the same problem we now get with Star Wars; once upon a time, a movie would stand on its own self-contained story, now it seems a lot of the plot is explained by the books / comics / cartoons you've never actually experienced.  Some might call that progress, personally for me it's laziness in terms of crafting a good, self-contained experience.

Anyway, on topic, ... I've always felt the Forgotten Realms has always suffered from this problem!  I own the original boxed set, and have recently re-read it (well, skimmed, it's not designed for reading end to end) - it feels like a reference book where half of it got left behind, all sketch, no real meat.  Then you read for example the first three Drizzt novels to learn about the Savage Frontier, and so on.  What did that boxed set tell me about Cormyr?  Very little, from what I recall, the only bits with much "meat" were the Dale Lands, and even that was sketchy at best.  It wasn't until 3.x put out the Forgotten Realms hard-back, that people finally had a "one stop shop" that, to a fair degree, actually gave you a comprehensive look at the whole land.  So more like the old World of Greyhawk boxed set, but not really (more detail, I think, in some areas at least).  It's a large reason I've never liked Forgotten Realms... too much material spread all over various products (hardbacks, adventures, novels, even computer games).

That said, I've run a PC in various Forgotten Realms games, and am DMing FR myself now, and we all treat it very superficially - at most, google some basic things, and just run the game like we would normally i.e. the overall game world isn't a huge feature.  For example one of my latest PC's was an Eldritch Knight from Cormyr, I'd done some basic research, but we played Out of the Abyss, so I might as well have been from anywhere or nowhere it hardly ever featured at the table.


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## akr71 (Aug 30, 2018)

Al2O3 said:


> If you want to use 5e canon for Cormyr then @_*Pauper*_ is right: Fire in the Blood is the source.
> 
> Some spoilers ahead:
> 
> ...



I have the book(s) on my 'to read' pile and plan on getting to them right after I finish The Expanse.  I'm planning a sandbox campaign set in Cormyr and we're starting very soon.

Any chance you could throw me a bone and tell me the name of the Queen?  I'm not a stickler for canon, but sometimes mining canon lore is easier than making it up


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## Pauper (Aug 30, 2018)

akr71 said:


> Any chance you could throw me a bone and tell me the name of the Queen?




Queen Raedra. Born in 1460 DR to Irvel Obarskryr (son of King Foril) and Ospra Goldfeather.

The book has a partial genealogy of the royal family of Cormyr right at the start, after the dedication, tracing the line of the crown from Azoun IV through Raedra's generation. I call it 'partial' because the families of Cormyr, based on this genealogy, appear very small, so it's likely the chart only shows the 'important' people that get the genealogy from Azoun IV to the time of the story rather than a comprehensive genealogy of all those with Obarskyr blood in Cormyr as of 1486 DR.

--
Pauper


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## gyor (Aug 30, 2018)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Agreed. They shook up the Realms again, and then didn't update how that affected most of the Realms.




 That is very frustrating.


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## gyor (Aug 30, 2018)

akr71 said:


> I have the book(s) on my 'to read' pile and plan on getting to them right after I finish The Expanse.  I'm planning a sandbox campaign set in Cormyr and we're starting very soon.
> 
> Any chance you could throw me a bone and tell me the name of the Queen?  I'm not a stickler for canon, but sometimes mining canon lore is easier than making it up




http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Raedra_Obarskyr

 Queen Raedra Obarskyr.


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## Kobold Boots (Aug 30, 2018)

gyor said:


> That is very frustrating.




That the people updating the campaign setting don't read the novels either?


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## akr71 (Aug 30, 2018)

gyor said:


> http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Raedra_Obarskyr
> 
> Queen Raedra Obarskyr.





Thanks (& [MENTION=17607]Pauper[/MENTION] too).  It took some digging, but I eventually found it on the forgotten realms wikia too.  Too bad the entry for Cormyr wasn't updated with the info, but free is free...

Again, I'm not a stickler for canon - I will make up or change whatever I feel I need to, but I do like having the names of political leaders and influential people at my fingertips.


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## gyor (Aug 30, 2018)

Kobold Boots said:


> That the people updating the campaign setting don't read the novels either?




 It would help, but aside from Salvatore there are no new novels, which really, really sucks.


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## gyor (Aug 30, 2018)

hastur_nz said:


> I agree, but it's the same problem we now get with Star Wars; once upon a time, a movie would stand on its own self-contained story, now it seems a lot of the plot is explained by the books / comics / cartoons you've never actually experienced.  Some might call that progress, personally for me it's laziness in terms of crafting a good, self-contained experience.
> 
> Anyway, on topic, ... I've always felt the Forgotten Realms has always suffered from this problem!  I own the original boxed set, and have recently re-read it (well, skimmed, it's not designed for reading end to end) - it feels like a reference book where half of it got left behind, all sketch, no real meat.  Then you read for example the first three Drizzt novels to learn about the Savage Frontier, and so on.  What did that boxed set tell me about Cormyr?  Very little, from what I recall, the only bits with much "meat" were the Dale Lands, and even that was sketchy at best.  It wasn't until 3.x put out the Forgotten Realms hard-back, that people finally had a "one stop shop" that, to a fair degree, actually gave you a comprehensive look at the whole land.  So more like the old World of Greyhawk boxed set, but not really (more detail, I think, in some areas at least).  It's a large reason I've never liked Forgotten Realms... too much material spread all over various products (hardbacks, adventures, novels, even computer games).
> 
> That said, I've run a PC in various Forgotten Realms games, and am DMing FR myself now, and we all treat it very superficially - at most, google some basic things, and just run the game like we would normally i.e. the overall game world isn't a huge feature.  For example one of my latest PC's was an Eldritch Knight from Cormyr, I'd done some basic research, but we played Out of the Abyss, so I might as well have been from anywhere or nowhere it hardly ever featured at the table.




 I think Waterdeep will be different, I think there is a plan to draw on backgrounds more for season 8, which would make character details like where you are from more important.

 Plus you can make your character from Waterdeep making it your home city.


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