# News Digest: Controversy Abounds! New Vampire Edition Details, Green Ronin's Talent Search, 7th Sea



## jimmifett (Apr 6, 2017)

I'm taking what i'm sure is the unpopular position here by the vocal minority.

This green ronin thing is a crock of feldercarb. You don't fix a perceived social "imbalance" by excluding a group you feel is "over represented". This whole concept of intersectionality is also an even bigger crock of bantha poodoo. What if you are "transitioning" to male? Still have your female parts, but Identify as male, are you disqualified? The whole thing is asinine, and while i'm sure there is some loophole being used, this sure seems like an illegal sex-based discriminatory hiring practice.

You want more women in the field, awesome, me too, but choose based on merit, not exclusionary practices such as body parts or mental "identity". It completely invalidates any standing you have if you attempt to combat one form of "social injustice" with further discrimination.

$0.02USD


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## ChapolimX (Apr 6, 2017)

> This project began in controversy after White Wolf announced hiring Zak Smith (aka Zak Sabbath or Zak S) back in February, a man who has been accused of serial harassment of LGBT game designers and community members and those promoting feminism and equality.
> 
> Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/conten...etop-Day-and-more!#.WOZDs3XyuV4#ixzz4dTb2pvTm




This controversy is not about the new edition. It was related to the video-game "Vampire The Masquerade: We Eat Blood"  released on Steam and mobile plataforms. The article gives the impression that Zak Smith (or Zak Sabbath) was hired for work into the tabletop game, which, as far as I know, holds no evidence.


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## TerraDave (Apr 6, 2017)

So there will be 3 editions of Vampire in print at the same time?

As for alternity, they are doing is pretty cool, but it does join the big wave of sci-fi games that seems to be washing over us.


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## ChapolimX (Apr 6, 2017)

@_*TerraDave*_

No. There will be: 

*Vampire: The Requiem* - A different game with its own mechanics, setting and themes. It holds some resemblance with Vampire: The Masquerade because it was released as a spiritual successor when the game line was closed. It will be supported by Onyx Path as a licensee.

*Vampire: The Masquerade - 20th Anniversary Edition* - A commemorative compendium released by Onyx Path that evolved to its own game line. Probably it will still be available as pdf and print on demand but there will be no new releases besides the ones that are already in production.

*Vampire: The Masquerade - 5th Edition* - A new edition under development by the new White Wolf now belonged to Paradox.


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## Lord_Blacksteel (Apr 6, 2017)

I used to think Runequest had the most complicated licensing situation. They seem to have that mostly sorted out and now Vampire is aiming for that crown. Good luck to all involved!


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## ddaley (Apr 6, 2017)

I was going to post this comment to the RPG Crowdfunding article, but it is not accepting comments...

Don't forget the *Castles & Crusades* kickstarter for the 7th printing of the *Players' Handbook*.   If you are looking to get into C&C, or need to pick up some other  books, you might want to check this one out.  I think everything in  their library is available as an add-on at a discount over their regular  prices.  I am in at the Harvester level, which lets you pick and choose  from their entire library:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/676918054/castles-and-crusades-players-handbook-7


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## Jester David (Apr 6, 2017)

jimmifett said:


> This green ronin thing is a crock of feldercarb. You don't fix a perceived social "imbalance" by excluding a group you feel is "over represented".



How else do you fix it? Hope? Just declaring sexism "over" and waiting for things to even out?



jimmifett said:


> This whole concept of intersectionality is also an even bigger crock of bantha poodoo. What if you are "transitioning" to male? Still have your female parts, but Identify as male, are you disqualified? The whole thing is asinine, and while i'm sure there is some loophole being used, this sure seems like an illegal sex-based discriminatory hiring practice.



I think the clarifying statement said all intersex individuals would be considered in this.  



jimmifett said:


> You want more women in the field, awesome, me too, but choose based on merit, not exclusionary practices such as body parts or mental "identity". It completely invalidates any standing you have if you attempt to combat one form of "social injustice" with further discrimination.



They're not going to choose unqualified people in this. Unskilled people will make poor quality books, which is the last thing a publisher wants. So merit WILL be considered. That's doesn't need to even be said (except, apparently, it did). 
It's a way of balancing the resumes. They want more women, so rather than putting all the resumes by women at the top and going through them first and giving them first opportunity of the jobs, they're just doing a call for them first. If no one applies that can do the job, they'll just hire more men.


Just having open applications looks great on paper. The best qualified people apply and get the job. But historic sexism and inequality negatively impacts the present.

Because the industry and gaming groups were historically sexist (either dismissively or even openly misogynistic) there are just fewer women in the industry. There were fewer opportunities for them to get their break. So right off the bat a gender neutral open call will skew male. And because they're competing against so many other likely more qualified males, many women won't even apply. 
Also, because so many publishers remain male-centric, they are often not friendly to women. The work environment is toxic. Nobody wants to work in a place they're not wanted, for a company that doesn't like them. If the company's views on female employees are not known, many women are just hesitant to apply. Just having a women-only call for applications will dramatically increase the number of women who apply.
And because the books are written by male authors writing to people like themselves, the industry has a perception of masculinity. Young women don't see women making the product and don't see themselves in the text and feel discouraged from getting into the industry. 

Without active action, the status remains quo. It's effectively a self-perpetuating closed system.


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## Jester David (Apr 6, 2017)

TerraDave said:


> So there will be 3 editions of Vampire in print at the same time?






ChapolimX said:


> @_*TerraDave*_
> 
> No. There will be:
> 
> ...



Which is a "yes" there will be three in print (if you consider Print on Demand as "print"). 
But only two will have new products.


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## jimmifett (Apr 6, 2017)

Jester David said:


> How else do you fix it? Hope? Just declaring sexism "over" and waiting for things to even out?
> 
> 
> I think the clarifying statement said all intersex individuals would be considered in this.




Funny how the only solution for intersectionalists to correct past discrimination is further future discrimination. It's all just a thin curtain to cover their own biggotry or even justify it. Group A did it, so group has to do it back. Like I said, asinine, and I'll add , bigoted.

As far as their clarification, they said Identifies as female or other non binary identity. Last I checked, identifying as male is binary, thus excludes any whom identify as male. But this is "social justice" in action, so what does logic matter?

I'm done with this "justified" bigotry drivel on this thread, if anyone wants to continue further discussion, send me P.M.s

$0.02USD


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## ddaley (Apr 6, 2017)

I am not sure if they located in the US or not.  But, if so, then discriminating based on gender either way is illegal.



Jester David said:


> How else do you fix it? Hope? Just declaring sexism "over" and waiting for things to even out?


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## Jester David (Apr 6, 2017)

ddaley said:


> I am not sure if they located in the US or not.  But, if so, then discriminating based on gender either way is illegal.



Hopefully they ran it past a lawyer who found a loophole and they're not doing anything illegal. I imagine taking male applicants later is enough.
But Green Ronin is a small company and likely doesn't have a lawyer on staff... so *shrug* could be totally illegal. 
Still, if the end result is more women writing gaming I'm not going to call out legally grey actions. Even if it costs me work...

I dunno. Complaining about giving some people priority always strikes me like complaining about reserved handicapped parking. It's unfair on the surface to give some people better parking spots, but life is pretty unfair so it's trying to balance things out. I have the advantage of good, strong legs: as long as there's a parking spaces for me in the back I'm able to walk a little farther.


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## fulcon35 (Apr 6, 2017)

This post is not meant to address any other post this forum or address their opinion in any way because I am not here to thought police anyone and truth be told I don't really post much of any thing at all.  That said I will not ever buy another Green Ronin product again for the same reason I don't entertain Jehovah's Witnesses on my door step, that is if I cared about your politics or religious beliefs I would ask about your politics or religious beliefs.  I was a huge Star Wars fan my whole life.  Grew up a fan boy, can tell you which companies designed and manufactured 3PO and R2 and the exact make and model of Han's heavy Blaster Pistol.  I will never watch another Star Wars movie ever again either.  When Disney decided that they were going to have their new feminists publicists refer to the empire as a white power organization I tried my best not to vomit.  I failed.  After I cleaned the chunks off my lap top I promptly emailed my friends that I would not be watching Rouge One, ever.  My friends have even offered my the opportunity to see it for free, still won't do it.  When I even see trailers for rouge one I try not to vomit. I fail.  After hurling in the face's of several of my friends who kept trying to get me to watch they decided that my chunks were not worth the trouble of trying to convert me anymore and gave up.  Why this extreme reaction, because if there's one thing I do not want in my fictional entertainment its real world politics.  When you have to sell your story, movie, play, etc. by pandering to left wing political elitism or right wing religious ideologies that means only one thing: your story sucks.  I was particularly aggrieved when George Lucas decided to dub Anakin Skywalker: Jesus Vader by deciding he was an immaculate conception.  Wouldn't have minded an all female casts of Ghostbusters at all if they hadn't written a script that even your average ten year old didn't find funny and hadn't decided to force feminism down everybody's throats.  I never listened to the right wing when they railed against gay marriage i'm not listening about the left wing whine about the LBGT community non stop either.  All in all if we, the geek community, keep buying products that pander to either left wing or right wing ideologies we will lose this meaningless hobby that we love so much.  Propaganda is not for entertainment, its for indoctrination.  Gary Gygax made a game millions of geeks still love even after he was gone, he didn't try to indoctrinate us into a cult no matter what the religious nuts said.  He just gave us food for our imagination and to this day millions of us are grateful to him for that.  Star Wars was once all about a great, fun, fast moving, scifi epic about the struggle of the light vs the dark, now its about feminists rhetoric and pandering to liberals. I spend a lot of time eating member berries these days remembering a time when I could read a book that was just a book or watch a movie that was just a movie and above all else play and RPG that was just an RPG, not an exercise in socialist propaganda.  Disney did it to their marvel line of comic books when they decided to inundate their titles with leftist propaganda and sales have dropped off drastically according to what I've read, and the same thing will happen to RPG if companies like Green Ronin try to force a political agenda in our face rather then just entertain us.  I liked Green Ronin's stuff.  I own ASIF, the DC universe RPG, but I'll never but anything else from them just like I won't ever watch another Star Wars movie while Disney wants to tell me how I should think rather then just take my imagination to a place a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.


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## Morrus (Apr 6, 2017)

fulcon35 said:


> I liked Green Ronin's stuff.  I own ASIF, the DC universe RPG, but I'll never but anything else from them just like I won't ever watch another Star Wars movie while Disney wants to tell me how I should think rather then just take my imagination to a place a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.




They're not telling you how to think. They don't have magic mind control powers.

They're telling you and showing you how _they_ think. And if you don't want to buy products from someone because they want to hire women, that's ultimately your call, but it's not one I can respect. And if you don't want to watch a Star Wars movie because it's "about feminists rhetoric and pandering to liberals" (hint: it's not; that phrase says _far_ more about you than it does about the cast and crew of Star Wars) that, again, is your call. I presume that now means you won't buy anything from me, either.

I'd also note that when you buy a book from somebody they owe you exactly one thing: a book. You are not buying their silence.



> When I even see trailers for rouge one I try not to vomit. I fail.



That sounds... unlikely. If trailers for Rogue One are literally causing you to vomit, you need to see a doctor. Quickly.


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## Morrus (Apr 6, 2017)

As an (obvious, I'd hope) warning given the way the rhetoric is starting to drift in this thread: remember that hate speech will not be tolerated on this site, so folks please be careful about dealing up the rhetoric.


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## ddaley (Apr 6, 2017)

What Green Ronin is doing doesn't particularly bother me.  But, I just want to point out that the issue isn't that they want to hire women, but that they are excluding men... which is in all likelihood illegal.

There are two things that I wouldn't want to see:

Green Ronin getting sued, if they are indeed breaking employment laws... which, for a small company could be catastrophic. 
A completely qualified male, for which this may be a dream opportunity, being completely excluded because he is of the wrong gender 




Morrus said:


> ...And if you don't want to buy products from someone because they want to hire women, that's ultimately your call, but it's not one I can respect.


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## Alzrius (Apr 6, 2017)

From what I can tell, Green Ronin is not breaking any anti-discrimination laws.

The U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission investigates discrimination complaints against companies that have (or have had in the last twenty weeks) fifteen or more employees.

The number of employees that Green Ronin seems to have varies depending on where you look, but none of them meet this threshold. For example, the listing for the "Green Ronin Staff 2016" picture on their website lists fourteen individuals. Their Wikipedia page says that they have twelve employees. Finally, their LinkedIn page lists twenty-three individuals who have worked with the company, but if you subtract those who were only freelancers, rather than employees, it drops down to eleven.


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## fulcon35 (Apr 6, 2017)

I noticed in your quote didn't mention anything about the fact that I don't like Republican anti-gay rhetoric, you just honed in on the part you didn't like, the part about liberals, and warned us about hate speech.  So is the part you don't like the hate speech?  Think I was pretty clear in that all I want is the people i pay to entertain me just to entertain me.   The cast and crew of Star Wars have nothing to do with it, their paid to do a job, and I never accused them of anything i specifically said *Disney*.  When you open an internet forum to free speech you might get response you don't like.  When I buy a star wars book, i just want a book about Star Wars, not real world crap, I can watch that on the news.  I respect free speech which is why i don't respond to other peoples threads, they have the right to think and state what they want, but when you say things like (hint: it's not; that phrase says _far more about you than it does about the cast and crew of Star Wars)_ Your just another troll.  I assume that if your the moderator and you can ban people that may be what your thinking, and if makes you happy I will cancel my subscription to enfider and delete my account, or you can do the whole free speech thing, disagree with my comment, and not threaten people with ubiquitous politically correct rhetoric about hate speech when you read something you don't like.


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## Morrus (Apr 6, 2017)

fulcon35 said:


> Think I was pretty clear in that all I want is the people i pay to entertain me just to entertain me.




You don't _own_ them because you bought a book from them. Other than provide you with a book, they can do, say, and think whatever they like.



> When you open an internet forum to free speech you might get response you don't like.




Well, it's not an "internet forum to free speech" (whatever that is supposed to mean). And let me get this straight, you want to quash speech you don't like by withholding $20 from the publisher of a book? Even if the publisher's silence were that cheap, that's not exactly free speech, now, is it?



> I assume that if your the moderator and you can ban people that may be what your thinking, and if makes you happy I will cancel my subscription to enfider and delete my account,




Please feel free to do whatever you feel you need to do. My silence costs a lot more than your $3 a month, I'm afraid.


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## Doctor Futurity (Apr 6, 2017)

For two whole seconds I thought, "Wow, that's cool, there's going to be a 5E adaptation of Vampire. Wonder how that will work....ooooh wait."


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## jimmifett (Apr 6, 2017)

Green Ronin is breaking washington state law, of which is where they are located.

http://www.hum.wa.gov/employment

An EMPLOYER may not: (1) refuse to hire a person, (2) discharge or bar a person from a job, (3) discriminate in compensation or other terms or conditions of employment, (4) print, circulate, or use any discriminatory statement, advertisement, publication, job application form, or make any inquiry in connection with prospective employment that is discriminatory.

By publishing their gender discriminitory position, they have broken state law.


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## Doctor Futurity (Apr 6, 2017)

fulcon35 said:


> This post is not meant to address any other post this forum or address their opinion in any way because I am not here to thought police anyone, and truth be told I don't really post much of any thing at all.  That said I will not ever buy another Green Ronin product again for the same reason I don't entertain Jehovah's Witnesses on my door step; that is, if I cared about your politics or religious beliefs I would ask about your politics or religious beliefs.
> 
> I was a huge Star Wars fan my whole life.  Grew up a fan boy, can tell you which companies designed and manufactured 3PO and R2 and the exact make and model of Han's heavy Blaster Pistol.  I will never watch another Star Wars movie ever again, either.  When Disney decided that they were going to have their new feminists publicists refer to the empire as a white power organization I tried my best not to vomit.
> 
> ...




Sorry, I had to clean that up a bit so I could read it; I am thinking maybe you wrote it on a phone keypad or something.

Just a couple comments:

1. You cannot claim to know that, for example, Rogue One is feminist propaganda if you refuse to see the movie. To make an educated discussion you need to explore the media in question so you can talk about it intelligently rather than hide from it. 

2. Right now, as someone who was unaware of any such claims of propaganda before seeing the film, and having actually watched it, I can safely say you either have a Very Low Standard for what constitutes feminist propaganda, or you're maybe taking for granted what the fringe right is claiming somwhere about the film. It's not feminist propaganda, and literally the only agenda I could see the film being accused of espousing is a vague attempt to suggest that the world of Star Wars has more people of color in it than Lando Calrissian. Beyond that, it's a fantastic film and deserves none of the accusations you have leveled at it._ It's a normal film, and you are trying to demonize normal in your diatribe._

3. Green Ronin can do whatever they want. You can demonstrate your dislike by voting with your dollars. They do clearly have an agenda, and it's been demonstrated in print elsewhere. That said, ask yourself this question: what is it that is actually bothering you about the agenda that you feel needs to be addressed? Don't turtle up and hide from it. We aren't going to be a better society if we don't communicate, and today's political disarray is an example of what happens when we lose the ability to communicate. The guys at Green Ronin have this problem, too; they aren't communicating to change hearts and minds, but are instead excluding people who need to be included so that they can come to find a happy middle ground with the other side.*

As an example: I am a lefty kind of guy. I think gay marriage is fine. I think people should be able to use their bathroom of choice based on the gender they identify with. I think open immigration with careful vetting is a sounder policy than the nonsense being hung up in courts right now. I think universal healthcare is the only option that should be on the table for everyone. I think --from direct workplace experience-- that women still have a gender gap with income and it needs to be fixed. I think the game industry under-represents women. But time and again, left-leaning diatribes regularly like to make out the middle-aged white male as the demonic Other who must be fought at all costs. And the right thinks a guy like me must be something less because he will side with the group that often seems to assume I am "bad" for being a white middle-aged male (I love the liberal tumblrs I subscribe to that regular hashtag #whitemalemenace and other fun stuff). 

My goal however is to weather through this and get past the point where such arbitrary distinctions are being made. I can do this because as one of those white male guys I am not an idiot and realize I have a very, very substantial gain on my own privileges over those of others, enough so that having a single instance where Green Ronin offers a contest to women writers is not only no skin off my back, it functionally has zero impact on my life at all. Literally the only thing being done wrong here is that I don't get to participate in a special contest for an under-represented group in the industry, and you know why? Because I AM NOT UNDER-REPRESENTED in this industry. Wow. 

TL;DR I am saying grow a pair and own up to the fact that you should be bigger than this. Don't demean yourself. Don't be one of those small-minded freaks. And most importantly, stop being petty.



*To clarify: the best approach any liberal should take is an open dialogue (imo). If you don't engage with the opposite side you will only isolate. That is what (I feel) has led us to the weird and unpleasant political climate today. So engagement needs to include dialogue and discussion, but often I feel the hard left writes off anyone who isn't already on board with their views, which defeats the purpose of inclusivity, and leads to cases where someone will feel put-off by a contest for female writers when in fact you should feel at most like this is a nice experiment to try out.


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## Doctor Futurity (Apr 6, 2017)

jimmifett said:


> Green Ronin is breaking washington state law, of which is where they are located.
> 
> http://www.hum.wa.gov/employment
> 
> ...




Maybe I am misunderstanding the arrangement, but isn't this more of a talent contest than an employment opportunity?


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## Alzrius (Apr 6, 2017)

jimmifett said:


> Green Ronin is breaking washington state law, of which is where they are located.
> 
> http://www.hum.wa.gov/employment
> 
> ...




As a note, the more relevant citation is Revised Code of Washington 49.60.180, which outlines the state's anti-discrimination laws. Interestingly, the definition for "employer" given in RCW 49.60.040 notes that it applies to anyone who "employes eight or more persons," which does seem to be a threshold that Green Ronin meets.

My guess (and it is just a guess) is that there's likely to be some sort of technicality about whether or not this constitutes "hiring," which is what the RCW statute is concerned with. They specifically say that this is for a "talent search" to find someone to write as part of a "paid contract," which seems like it could avoid that on a technicality (as "contractors" are often not considered to be "employees"), but that's just conjecture on my part.


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## jimmifett (Apr 6, 2017)

Doctor Futurity said:


> Maybe I am misunderstanding the arrangement, but isn't this more of a talent contest than an employment opportunity?




If it is paid money or otherwise compensated, then it is a employement opportunity and falls under washington state's human rights commission which protects against gender discrimination in any form. By publishing this, they have already violated the law and If not corrected, I fully intend to register a complaint with that body.

I'm not out to get Green Ronin, I love their work. But you cant go around bigotedly discriminating against men in the state of washington just bc it's the popular 'scause right now.

Who is protected from employment discrimination?
The law prohibits unfair employment practices because of a person’s:

Opposition to a discriminatory practice
Presence of any sensory, mental, or physical disability
Use of a trained dog guide or service animal
HIV/AIDS and Hepatitis C Status
Race/Color
Creed
National Origin
Sex (including pregnancy)
Marital Status
Age (40+)
Sexual Orientation, including Gender Identity
Honorably discharged Veteran or Military Status
State Employee or Health Care Whistleblower Status


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## jimmifett (Apr 6, 2017)

Alzrius said:


> As a note, the more relevant citation is Revised Code of Washington 49.60.180, which outlines the state's anti-discrimination laws. Interestingly, the definition for "employer" given in RCW 49.60.040 notes that it applies to anyone who "employes eight or more persons," which does seem to be a threshold that Green Ronin meets.




Unless GRP has undergone considerable contraction since this photo, I count more than 8 members or GRP staff in 2016.

http://greenronin.com/about-green-ronin-publishing/


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## Morrus (Apr 6, 2017)

jimmifett said:


> If it is paid money or otherwise compensated, then it is a employement opportunity and falls under washington state's human rights commission which protects against gender discrimination in any form. By publishing this, they have already violated the law and If not corrected, I fully intend to register a complaint with that body.




Save us from the armchair lawyering, man. It's a _talent contest_, not an offer of employment. They know what they're doing. You'll be suing the Paralympics for discriminating against able-bodied people next. You're blowing this_ way_ out of proportion. It's a talent contest. Talent contests usually have entrance rules, unlike offers of employment.


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## Sunsword (Apr 6, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Because the industry and gaming groups were historically sexist (either dismissively or even openly misogynistic) there are just fewer women in the industry. There were fewer opportunities for them to get their break. So right off the bat a gender neutral open call will skew male. And because they're competing against so many other likely more qualified males, many women won't even apply.
> Also, because so many publishers remain male-centric, they are often not friendly to women. The work environment is toxic. Nobody wants to work in a place they're not wanted, for a company that doesn't like them. If the company's views on female employees are not known, many women are just hesitant to apply. Just having a women-only call for applications will dramatically increase the number of women who apply.
> And because the books are written by male authors writing to people like themselves, the industry has a perception of masculinity. Young women don't see women making the product and don't see themselves in the text and feel discouraged from getting into the industry.




Respectfully, is it sexism that the small publishers in the industry is predominantly male? The bloggers too? I was born a male and identify as male. I love this industry, game master to a diverse group of gamers in several groups, write a blog, and have a small vanity press for PDF products. 

I have been intrigued by Tales of the Lost Citadel and have an interest in submitting a work. However, I'm not female and my gender is neither fluid or non-binary. One of Green Ronin's owners is female, shouldn't her perspective help fight sexism? Both Chris and Nicole are open-minded and good people, why an artificial constraint to find the best story?

In the end, it's their decision with Editor of the fiction line, I'm simply disappointed in it and where I was anxiously awaiting the release of the Anthology, I'm not sure what that I will pick it up in the future.


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## Alzrius (Apr 6, 2017)

jimmifett said:


> Unless GRP has undergone considerable contraction since this photo, I count more than 8 members or GRP staff in 2016.
> 
> http://greenronin.com/about-green-ronin-publishing/




Yeah, I'm the one who first linked to that picture. I also granted that they likely had more than eight employees. Finally, I speculated how they still might not be in violation of Washington state law. That was all in the parts of my post that you didn't quote.


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## Doctor Futurity (Apr 6, 2017)

jimmifett said:


> If it is paid money or otherwise compensated, then it is a employement opportunity and falls under washington state's human rights commission which protects against gender discrimination in any form. By publishing this, they have already violated the law and If not corrected, I fully intend to register a complaint with that body.
> 
> I'm not out to get Green Ronin, I love their work. But you cant go around bigotedly discriminating against men in the state of washington just bc it's the popular 'scause right now.
> 
> ...




As an employer, I am fully aware of the pitfalls that one must face when hiring employees, and you have to watch out for a variety of issues, and avoid demonstration of bias (especially when you know there's a risk, chiefly due to gender discrimination and ageism, two top concerns in my own industry).

The discrimination laws in WA I could find seem to be:

_Under the new law, an employer may not: (1) refuse to hire a person; (2) discharge or bar a person from a job; (3) discriminate in compensation or other terms or conditions of employment; or (4) print, circulate, or use any discriminatory statement, advertisement, publication, job application form, or make any inquiry in connection with prospective employment that is discriminatory on the basis of an individual's sexual orientation. _

(source)

Although I support Green Ronin in what they are doing (because I have little doubt that if you look at their current roster of employees and contractors I bet most are male) I think they could be in violation of item 4 in the above quoted text from the law (caveat: IANAL).

(EDIT: I used to live in WA and always felt is was simultaneously one of the most litigious states I'd ever been in, as well as conveying a very "big government nanny state" feel, in the name of progressivism. Which always put me in a weird conundrum as a liberal because I couldn't disagree that excessive nanny-state level control in my life felt absolutely awful and I was both very happy to move even while missing the more progressive mindset of WA. In the end, this is why my own philosophy is more about social change for community and self-betterment, and not artificially enforced changed through state/Federal controls).


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## jimmifett (Apr 6, 2017)

Morrus said:


> Save us from the armchair lawyering, man. It's a _talent contest_, not an offer of employment. They know what they're doing. You'll be suing the Paralympics for discriminating against able-bodied people next. You're blowing this_ way_ out of proportion. It's a talent contest. Talent contests usually have entrance rules, unlike offers of employment.




If Green Ronin wants to be known for actively skirting Human Rights to further an ideological agenda, they are as welcome to do as I am welcome to call them out on it and make sure others are aware of GRP's disregards Human Rights set forth by the state of Washington.

You're comparison to Paralympics is quite interesting given that in a growing number of professional sports bodies, those identifying as female are competing directly beside biologic females with what some perceive as an unfair advantage. How long until gender disphoria becomes a qualifying parameter for entry into the Paralympics?

The talent contest ceases to be a talent contest as soon as, and possibly before, an employment offer is made.

Washington set up the goal posts by including gender identity as a protected status. They don't get to be moved when the biologic or identified gender is male.

Standing up for actual equality is certainly not blowing things out of proportion, tho I can understand if others disagree.


----------



## HawaiiSteveO (Apr 6, 2017)

The sixth sheik's sixth sheep is sick - WHOMP ain't that funky now!

Seriously folks . . . oy vey.


----------



## Jester David (Apr 6, 2017)

Sunsword said:


> Respectfully, is it sexism that the small publishers in the industry is predominantly male? The bloggers too? I was born a male and identify as male. I love this industry, game master to a diverse group of gamers in several groups, write a blog, and have a small vanity press for PDF products.



What's the alternative? 
That women just dislike gaming and are bad at writing? Does adventure and game design somehow require a penis? 

If an industry is predominantly male and there's no good reason, what other explanation is there?



Sunsword said:


> I have been intrigued by Tales of the Lost Citadel and have an interest in submitting a work. However, I'm not female and my gender is neither fluid or non-binary. One of Green Ronin's owners is female, shouldn't her perspective help fight sexism? Both Chris and Nicole are open-minded and good people, why an artificial constraint to find the best story?



They said there will be accepting applications from male writers later in the year. It might not be for this project, but there'll be other opportunities. So you will still likely have a chance to submit something, although maybe not explicitly for this project. And if your idea is good enough it will be accepted. 

The whole point of this is to _encourage_ women to submit by explicitly asking them to. It's saying they're not only welcome, but desired. 



Sunsword said:


> In the end, it's their decision with Editor of the fiction line, I'm simply disappointed in it and where I was anxiously awaiting the release of the Anthology, I'm not sure what that I will pick it up in the future.



Why?
Do you think Green Ronin will pick inferiour ideas? Do you think the authors will work any less hard? That the work by already announced authors - which previously made you excited - will be affected by these other writers?


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## Caliban (Apr 6, 2017)

jimmifett said:


> If Green Ronin wants to be known for actively skirting Human Rights to further an ideological agenda, they are as welcome to do as I am welcome to call them out on it and make sure others are aware of GRP's disregards Human Rights set forth by the state of Washington.
> 
> You're comparison to Paralympics is quite interesting given that in a growing number of professional sports bodies, those identifying as female are competing directly beside biologic females with what some perceive as an unfair advantage. How long until gender disphoria becomes a qualifying parameter for entry into the Paralympics?
> 
> ...




You wouldn't happen to be a "Men's Rights" activist, would you?   

And are you protesting this issue anywhere other than this particular message board?


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## ChapolimX (Apr 6, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Which is a "yes" there will be three in print (if you consider Print on Demand as "print").
> But only two will have new products.




No, it is not.. Vampire: The Requiem and Vampire: The Masquerade aren't editions of the same game. They're different games with the word vampire in the name. Why people insist in calling them the same game is beyond me. So, we can say there will be 2 editions of Vampire: The Masquerade avaiable in print if you take into account the print on demand products.


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## Caliban (Apr 6, 2017)

ChapolimX said:


> No, it is not.. Vampire: The Requiem and Vampire: The Masquerade aren't editions of the same game. They're different games with the word vampire in the name. Why people insist in calling them the same game is beyond me. So, we can say there will be 2 editions of Vampire: The Masquerade avaiable in print if you take into account the print on demand products.




Well, to be fair they are two games with "Vampire: The..." in the name.  They only differ by a single word.


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## jimmifett (Apr 6, 2017)

Caliban said:


> You wouldn't happen to be a "Men's Rights" activist, would you?
> 
> And are you protesting this issue anywhere other than this particular message board?




No, while they may have *some* valid arguments, I find that too many of them are often just as wackadoodle as their opposite counterparts.

As to your 2nd question, yes, I notified Green Ronin so they can correct their mistake if they choose to. Thats up to them to be in compliance with their state's laws.


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## Caliban (Apr 6, 2017)

jimmifett said:


> No, while they may have *some* valid arguments, I find that too many of them are often just as wackadoodle as their opposite counterparts.




Hmm...Yes...



> As to your 2nd question, yes, I notified Green Ronin so they can correct their mistake if they choose to. Thats up to them to be in compliance with their state's laws.




So...you don't think they ran this by a lawyer before issuing the talent search?  Are  *YOU *a lawyer?


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## Jester David (Apr 6, 2017)

ChapolimX said:


> No, it is not.. Vampire: The Requiem and Vampire: The Masquerade aren't editions of the same game. They're different games with the word vampire in the name. Why people insist in calling them the same game is beyond me. So, we can say there will be 2 editions of Vampire: The Masquerade avaiable in print if you take into account the print on demand products.




They're not identical. And I don't think I'd call "Vampire: The Requiem" the VtM third Edition. But they're the same game in the same way that D&D BECMI is the same game as Advanced D&D. 
But they're both Storyteller System games where you can play a gangrel vampire who identifies itself as a Kindred and uses the Animalism power and were originally published by White Wolf. They're arguably more similar than D&D and Pathfinder. 
Heck, the difference is really more one of lore. They're different campaign settings to the same game...


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## Sunsword (Apr 6, 2017)

Jester David said:


> What's the alternative?
> That women just dislike gaming and are bad at writing? Does adventure and game design somehow require a penis?
> 
> If an industry is predominantly male and there's no good reason, what other explanation is there?
> ...




I don't see a correlation of sexism between the number of "vanity publishers" that exist throughout the industry, including Green Ronin in it's early days. I've been raised and continue to raise my family that we are all equal, regardless of gender, ethnicity, or religion. Is sexism obliterated? No. But we have much progress since the early 70's, when I was born. GR has the right to make whatever decision they like, and I am free to disagree with it.

Asking if adventure or game design require a penis doesn't even apply to my objection and is fallacy in relation to my objection. Here is my question for you? What if they opened this up to everyone and a man got the job? Would it be because GR is sexist or that the best story happened to be from a male writer?

To me, a better solution for this talent search, would be to seek out amateur writers and give someone their "big break".

You mention to me that later in the year "if your idea is good enough it will be accepted". Why is that okay later but not now? Equality is equality, it doesn't come with an asterisk. I applaud making sure to include women authors, but I don't agree with excluding male authors. If I won a contest with only male authors, I would always wonder what women authors were better than me. It would taint the win for me, because it's, to me, an unsettling and counter-productive decision.

As for my uncertainty, I think it's a poor idea, I'm disappointed in the idea and it doesn't represent my idea of equality. It makes me rethink the project, as a consumer. I'm sure some are attracted to the project because of it, and some, like myself, are put off by it. That's consequence of any decision a publisher makes. I support their right to the decision, yet it will affect how I look at their future products. I won't know if GR picked the best idea, their decision casts doubt on that, since 50% of their talent pool has been excluded.

It's obvious we are both passionate about this issue. I respect your opinion, I simply disagree with you. That's okay and I appreciate the discourse.


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## Abstruse (Apr 6, 2017)

You know, for all of you screaming discrimination at Green Ronin, there's an easy solution:

Report them.

If you think what they're doing is illegal, report them. If they're breaking the law, they'll be fined.

Also, please record the call you make. I want to hear it.

Dudebro: Yeah, I wanna report SEXIST hiring practices!

EEOC: That's horrible! What is the issue?

Dudebro: This game company is only hiring WOMEN in their talent search contest for female authors! Hello? Hello??


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## Nylanfs (Apr 6, 2017)

The best part of these type of posts (either here or on FB) is it give me more people to ignore and shun.


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## Jester David (Apr 6, 2017)

Sunsword said:


> I don't see a correlation of sexism between the number of "vanity publishers" that exist throughout the industry, including Green Ronin in it's early days. I've been raised and continue to raise my family that we are all equal, regardless of gender, ethnicity, or religion. Is sexism obliterated? No. But we have much progress since the early 70's, when I was born. GR has the right to make whatever decision they like, and I am free to disagree with it.
> 
> Asking if adventure or game design require a penis doesn't even apply to my objection and is fallacy in relation to my objection. Here is my question for you? What if they opened this up to everyone and a man got the job? Would it be because GR is sexist or that the best story happened to be from a male writer?
> 
> ...



View attachment 83141

Right now there are systemic issues in place. Things are NOT equal, and they don't become more equal by pretending things are fair, by ignoring barriers that are in place. 
The hard fact is, opening the contest to everyone just *isn't* giving everyone an equal chance.

I don't like the idea of excluding anyone, and think everyone should be judged on their work alone. But that's not the world we live in. People aren't starting in the same place and haven't been given the same opportunity. By limiting the contest it's going to encourage authors that wouldn't otherwise have thought to contribute. And it's also gaining more attention, gaining more attention for the talent show.


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## discoDM (Apr 7, 2017)

I would like to award Jester David all the XP.


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## Sunsword (Apr 7, 2017)

Jester David said:


> View attachment 83141
> 
> 
> The hard fact is, opening the contest to everyone just *isn't* giving everyone an equal chance.




I support your right to you opinion, but I vehemently disagree with it and I think it us regressive and not progressive.


----------



## Jester David (Apr 7, 2017)

Sunsword said:


> I support your right to you opinion, but I vehemently disagree with it and I think it us regressive and not progressive.




I'm not asking you to _*like*_ it. I don't much like it. I'm pretty sure the women participating don't much like it either. The question is whether or not it's necessary.  It's basically a spin on affirmative action, which was a policy in the US as far back as 50 years ago. 

The issue of equity and women representation is a big issue in STEM jobs at the moment. Gaming is running parallel to this for reasons, likely the overlap between tabletop and video games. Women disproportionately do not get computer science degrees. And one of the reasons why is the lack of women spokespersons advocating math, sciences, and computers. Because women don't hold the jobs and positions fewer women apply in the future. 
It's a vicious cycle. Without deliberate action nothing changes. 
There are fewer women in gaming. Why? Because games are designed by men for men. Why? Because there are fewer women designers. Why? Because there are fewer women in gaming. 

Not having representation in the industry sucks. Diversity is a good thing. Everyone should be able to play games and enjoy themselves. I loved D&D and tabletop gaming and want the industry to thrive and for everyone to have a place at the table. 
Excluding people sucks. Even if it's a well represented group like white males. 
*It really comes down to what sucks the least: not having diversity or purposely excluding a group of people. *

Now, to me, the tipping factor is that women are already excluded. By being under represented they're already unintentionally excluded. It's implicit exclusion. So explicitly excluding an already advantaged and well represented group is the lesser of the two evils. I'm not going to come out here and say it's a good thing. That I like it or want it to happen. But I hate it less. I condone it. 
It's some "ends justify the means" BS.


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## redrick (Apr 7, 2017)

I'm all for Green Ronin holding a talent search specifically seeking out talented women writers. I understand that targeted messages of support and interest towards women and minorities can rub some people the wrong way, but I really do think it is an essential part of helping to make our hobby more inclusive and bring as many kinds of people as possible to our gaming tables. Yay.


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## jerry247 (Apr 7, 2017)

ChapolimX said:


> This controversy is not about the new edition. It was related to the video-game "Vampire The Masquerade: We Eat Blood"  released on Steam and mobile plataforms. The article gives the impression that Zak Smith (or Zak Sabbath) was hired for work into the tabletop game, which, as far as I know, holds no evidence.




and the quote:


> a man who has been accused of serial harassment of LGBT game designers and community members and those promoting feminism and equality.




seems like it the opposite of what he is actually doing. changing it to:

a man who has been accused of serial harassment of *_* game designers and community members and those *de*moting feminism and equality *of LGBT*.

would be more correct.


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## Xethreau (Apr 7, 2017)

I congratulate Green Ronin for their call for female authors. It is interesting to me that all-female environments allow women to grow and express themselves in a way that "equal" environments of mixed sexes do not. I know that sexism still exists because my family is full of strong women, and too many women in the outside world clearly have not had a chance to grow into their power. 

I think that this will be a clear plot of ground on which to cultivate the female RPG voice. Let us remember that a woman wrote _The Tale of Genji_.


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## Mavkatzer (Apr 7, 2017)

I applaud Green Ronin and all members of the RPG community who take action like this to make the world a better place.

I would also like to thank Morrus, Jester David , and all other forum members who have the patience to articulate why these steps are beneficial and even necessary.

Every year, because of efforts like yours, my favorite hobby becomes one I am more and more proud of.


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## Abstruse (Apr 7, 2017)

jerry247 said:


> would be more correct.



No, it wouldn't. That's why I cited my sources.


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## mxyzplk (Apr 7, 2017)

You are more than welcome to not like Zak, he's a bit of a freak and not for everyone. But the claims he harasses LGBT people etc. are ridiculous, and only creditable by people that don't take more than 5 minutes to look into it.  I appreciate you 'citing sources' but linking to something crazy someone says online is not much of a source.


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## Abstruse (Apr 7, 2017)

mxyzplk said:


> You are more than welcome to not like Zak, he's a bit of a freak and not for everyone. But the claims he harasses LGBT people etc. are ridiculous, and only creditable by people that don't take more than 5 minutes to look into it. I appreciate you 'citing sources' but linking to something crazy someone says online is not much of a source.



I reported that he was accused of doing those things. I cited the sources of those accusations. Those sites also cited their sources with first-hand testimony of harassment or with other evidence. You can claim all you want whether or not he actually did the things he's accused of, but the fact that he _was accused _ is not in question.


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## ccs (Apr 7, 2017)

Sunsword said:


> I have been intrigued by Tales of the Lost Citadel and have an interest in submitting a work. However, I'm not female and my gender is neither fluid or non-binary. One of Green Ronin's owners is female, shouldn't her perspective help fight sexism? Both Chris and Nicole are open-minded and good people, *why an artificial constraint to find the best story?*




Because they're looking for the best story _that's written by a woman*_?  Wasn't that abundantly clear from the write up?

*However the hell you define that nowdays here in 2017....


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## Abstruse (Apr 7, 2017)

ccs said:


> *However the hell you define that nowdays here in 2017....



Green Ronin is defining it as anyone who identifies as female, non-binary, intersexed, pangender, bigender, and/or agender, based on their clarification.

If you don't understand what that means, a basic answer would be "not a man". It's obviously more complicated than that, but if you understand it's more complicated than that, you probably don't need a definition.


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## Sunsword (Apr 7, 2017)

Jester David said:


> I'm not asking you to _*like*_ it. I don't much like it. I'm pretty sure the women participating don't much like it either. The question is whether or not it's necessary.  It's basically a spin on affirmative action, which was a policy in the US as far back as 50 years ago.




No matter how it's spun, to me it implies that Nicole and C.E. are saying that either women can't compete with male authors (which is ridiculous) or that they are not capable of choosing the best writer for the job without their biases overriding talent (which is sad). I don't see it as the better of two evils, I see it as a sad commentary of how far to the left equality can be derailed.

I know that my gaming tables are much more diverse now then the were in 1991, 1997, and 2007. And so is the industry. As someone who runs a small chain of comic and game stores I am proud that females make up about 30% of our customers. Perhaps there is room to grow for females in this industry not because we are inherently sexist, but because we are finding better ways to reach them. I am the father of 3 daughters, they are all fierce competitors and the idea that the creative playing field is not equal isn't palatable to any of them in this instance.


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## ccs (Apr 7, 2017)

Sunsword said:


> I support their right to the decision, yet it will affect how I look at their future products. I won't know if GR picked the best idea, their decision casts doubt on that, since 50% of their talent pool has been excluded.




And I would assume they had picked the best idea based upon the criteria/talent pool that they told me they were judging.


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## Sunsword (Apr 7, 2017)

ccs said:


> Because they're looking for the best story _that's written by a woman*_?  Wasn't that abundantly clear from the write up?
> 
> *However the hell you define that nowdays here in 2017....




If I were C.E., I'd first be concerned about getting Tales of the Lost Citadel on Amazon and into book stores. Then I would be looking purely for the best stories available with ethnicity and gender having no bearing on that search.

I think adding the statement that non-binary people are welcome to submit is a back door to ease the rules, which is disrespectful and cowardly in it's own right.


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## Abstruse (Apr 7, 2017)

Sunsword said:


> ...it implies that Nicole and C.E. are saying that either women can't compete with male authors (which is ridiculous) or that they are not capable of choosing the best writer for the job without their biases overriding talent (which is sad).




And if you're as "into" the business as you claim, you know that statement is borderline libelous at worst and unprofessional at a minimum as you're personally insulting the integrity of two established professionals.


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## Caliban (Apr 7, 2017)

My opinion is that this is America, and you can do "talent" contests, writing contests, or almost any kind of contest using whatever criteria you want for the pool of participants, no matter how PC or ridiculous they may seem to others.   They are taking submissions, not hiring people.   

America's Got Talent,  The Voice,  any number of Beauty Pageants, bodybuilding competitions, and writing competitions - they all have pretty specific criteria for participating.  Sometimes gender is a factor, most of the time it isn't.   It's a free country.


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## ccs (Apr 7, 2017)

Abstruse said:


> Green Ronin is defining it as anyone who identifies as female, non-binary, intersexed, pangender, bigender, and/or agender, based on their clarification.
> 
> If you don't understand what that means, a basic answer would be "not a man". It's obviously more complicated than that, but if you understand it's more complicated than that, you probably don't need a definition.





Yes, yes, yes.
If not for the lawyers, lawsuits, $$$, (& everybody thinking their some kind of special & needing their own acronym), it wouldn't be that complicated. 
It's simple: there's males, there's females, & there's people with assorted mental illness and/or biological problems concerning their sexuality.  But for reasons we refuse to treat those particular mental illnesses & bio-problems for what they are....

*Moderator note: Morrus dealt with this post three days ago. You can stop reporting it now, folks.
-Darkness*


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## ccs (Apr 7, 2017)

Sunsword said:


> If I were C.E., I'd first be concerned about getting Tales of the Lost Citadel on Amazon and into book stores. Then I would be looking purely for the best stories available with ethnicity and gender having no bearing on that search.
> 
> I think adding the statement that non-binary people are welcome to submit is a back door to ease the rules, which is disrespectful and cowardly in it's own right.




It's not cowardly, it's trying to avoid being torn apart by lawyers.  Afterall, we're living in a society that can't even figure out where to pee without a court fight.
Now imagine if one of those  non-binaryintersexedpangenderbigendertransgendered, and/or agendered folks (or their lawyers) got it into their head that they'd missed a chance to make $?
As is some man will sue them....


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## pming (Apr 7, 2017)

Hiya!



Abstruse said:


> Green Ronin is defining it as anyone who identifies as female, non-binary, intersexed, pangender, bigender, and/or agender, based on their clarification.
> 
> If you don't understand what that means, a basic answer would be "not a man". It's obviously more complicated than that, but if you understand it's more complicated than that, you probably don't need a definition.




So...what you're saying, is that Green Ronin is defining it as "Anyone"? Ok, that's cool. I can write down "Non-Binary" and/or maybe "Attack Helicopter" for Sex when I send in my resume. I mean, it's not like they can prove a negative (ie, that I _don't_ identify as a non-binary-attack-helicopter...).

See the point? I hope so.

^_^

Paul L. Ming


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## fulcon35 (Apr 7, 2017)

I never claimed to own anyone, this isn't the antebellum south, an no one owns anyone anymore so you can take off your uniform and put down your musket and go home, the North won. Since Abraham Lincoln is one of my favorite historical figures that probably makes me as happy as I am sure it does you.  Concerning the price of your free speech, I completely respect that, and the fact that you put expression ahead of money.  However please don't claim you don't know what I mean by free speech and then defend your own right to free speech you know exactly what I mean, that's disingenuous.  I was directly referring to the claim of hate speech, and nothing else.  Now you claim they don't have mind control powers, and again I think I'm going to completely agree with you on this one to.  However you have to agree that I don't have mind control powers either, and I assure you I don't.  I am not a Sith Lord and I never claimed dominion over the entertainment industry or that I have the power to make anyone write anything so maybe we should leave the mind control to the Jedi and the Sith and talk about the only power any consumer has, their dollar.  I will not pay people to proselytize me, that's my statement, and that's my point.  I completely disagree with your claim that Green Ronin isn't trying to influence people.  Feminists and anti feminists rhetoric are political rhetoric.  Their designed to win people over in the ongoing debate between these two competing ideologies.  Green Ronin has decided to pander to liberal sensibilities in order to make a sale.  If Green Ronin suddenly decided to market a product written by pro trump conservative haters of planned parent hood its the exact same thing.  Here's my anecdotal proof that Politics, religion and RPG should not mix: this conversation.  Your article made a statement that they have decided to throw their hats into the political arena rather then just sell geek products to geek people.  I don't care what side of the aisle their on, that's their business and that's their right, please don't tell me that I'm a bad person because I don't want buy products which have obviously been politicized.  If your trying to convince me that I should buy political rhetoric your off to an armature start at best.  You're only attempting to brow beat me into compliance, if you want me to buy proselytizing products you're going to have to learn to proselytize.  Actually, you need to put a finer edge on your technique and learn to both brow beat and proselytizing at the same time.  If you have no experience with this I can recommend several books that, though I have never read them myself, come highly recommended.  First off you should try Snake Oil Salesmanship and Partisan Proselytizing by Rush Limbaugh.  Rush is one of those oily personalities that successfully manages to both proselytize and swindle his audience while simultaneously convincing them that he's a great guy, and he does it all while stoned out of his mind on oxycodone.  I may not like the man, but damn he's good.  Now Rush might not be your speed, perhaps you don't like his subtly or his conservative views, that's ok, I've got another one you'll just love.  It's call Tax Cheating and Brow Beating, How to Swindle A Fortune In Modern Day America by Reverend Al Sharpton.  No one can take on the heir of righteous indignation, brow beat his detractors and proselytize all his followers simultaneously the way Reverend Al can.  Now if threats of imposing hate speech censor ship is your thing, then Reverend Al's instructional guide is the book for you.  Plus Sharpton's book had a huge bonus: it will tell you how to cheat the IRS out of millions, and unlike Trump University its proven to work, after all Reverend Al isn't in jail despite all the millions of back taxes he owes.  What finer a testimonial to his larcenous skill can you ask for?  Now if my trashing of both political parties has thoughtfully annoyed you then maybe you understand my point about politics and RPG being a bad mix.  I'm sure you know that the old adage that states never talk about politics or religion in polite company, and what table with a role playing game on it is any fun if the company isn't polite?


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## Abstruse (Apr 7, 2017)

pming said:


> See the point? I hope so.



Let me know when you make one.


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## Hussar (Apr 7, 2017)

Why is it that this conversation goes south so quickly?  

Good grief - it's a talent contest for FEMALE AUTHORS.  Is there a problem with gender specific talent contests?  I don't think so.  We do have gender divided sports after all.  It's a contest to see the best that FEMALE AUTHORS can come up with.

Now, it might very well suck rocks.  Who knows?  It might be fantastic.  It might be somewhere in the middle.  But, the idea that it's somehow discriminatory to have a contest for a specific group of people is ludicrous.  We do it all the bloody time.  And it's a great way to highlight work that might otherwise get lost in the background signal noise.

Jeez, it's not rocket science.


----------



## Ricochet (Apr 7, 2017)

I subscribe to various newsletters with writing contests and the like. Most of these contests have guidelines and restrictions of some sorts, and it's not just word counts, genre and all the technical stuff. Some are only open to women. Some are only open to people of a certain heritage. Some are only open to people of specific countries. Some are only open to people with specific sexual orientation. That's just how these things work in 2017. There's nothing illegal about it, as numerous people have pointed out already.

Now, if you are a heterosexual, white male, then you will find that a whooping zero percent of these contests provice exclusivity for YOU (and I believe that is what sparks the outrage. "Why are they getting this when I am not!). That's just the way things are now. There's plenty of other advantages to being a white male though, so there's no need to be angry at the opportunities afforded to others. That's just how these things work in 2017.


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## Hussar (Apr 7, 2017)

And, let's be completely honest here. Heterosexual White Male is hardly a disadvantage when you do enter open contests. The same may very well not be true otherwise. 


Sent from my iPhone using EN World


----------



## Ricochet (Apr 7, 2017)

Hussar said:


> And, let's be completely honest here. Heterosexual White Male is hardly a disadvantage when you do enter open contests. The same may very well not be true otherwise.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using EN World




Exactly.


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## epithet (Apr 7, 2017)

When I read the original posting, I was cool with it--I have no problem with celebrating or championing women. The addendum, however... that's a load of b.s. right there. The entire tone shifted from "women are awesome" (to which I say "huzzah") to "men suck," (to which I say "go fornicate yourself.")<br><br>As amended, the contest is now open to men as long as they have disavowed their masculinity. Instead of women being singled out for approbation, men are singled out for disregard. I get that men are, as a gender, quite well represented in the industry already, but you can't reasonably offer us a middle finger salute without expecting to get one back in return.&nbsp;<br><br>For the record, if Green Ronin had announced something like an adventure path featuring adventures designed and written by women, I would have been interested and quite willing to take a look to see if it was something I could use.&nbsp;


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## Abstruse (Apr 7, 2017)

epithet said:


> As amended, the contest is now open to men as long as they have disavowed their masculinity.



You have a gross misunderstanding of what trangender means.


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## epithet (Apr 7, 2017)

Abstruse said:


> You have a gross misunderstanding of what trangender means.




That might or might not be the case, but in any event the contest is open to people who "identify" as "non-binary gender." Now, I have to admit that I don't know what the hell that is, but it certainly suggests to me that I could participate as long as I identify myself as anything other than male--in other words, as long as I disavow or renounce my masculinity.


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## Abstruse (Apr 7, 2017)

epithet said:


> Now, I have to admit that I don't know what the hell that is...



Clearly. So why are you attempting to speak on a subject you admit your own ignorance about?


----------



## Morrus (Apr 7, 2017)

ccs said:


> Yes, yes, yes.
> If not for the lawyers, lawsuits, $$$, (& everybody thinking their some kind of special & needing their own acronym), it wouldn't be that complicated.
> It's simple: there's males, there's females, & there's people with assorted mental illness and/or biological problems concerning their sexuality.  But for reasons we refuse to treat those particular mental illnesses & bio-problems for what they are....




Utterly, utterly inappropriate. Let me be clear: this website is welcoming to all and is supportive of diversity. Calling transgender people mental ill *is* hate speech. Please do not post in this thread again.


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## Morrus (Apr 7, 2017)

fulcon35 said:


> I never claimed to own anyone, this isn't the antebellum south, an no one owns anyone anymore so you can take off your uniform and put down your musket and go home, the North won. Since Abraham Lincoln is one of my favorite historical figures that probably makes me as happy as I am sure it does you.




I think you may be confusing me for an American.



> I will not pay people to proselytize me, that's my statement, and that's my point.




You are not paying people to proselytise you. You are paying people for a book, and then acting like that entitles you to their silence.



> Green Ronin has decided to pander to liberal sensibilities in order to make a sale.




Don't be ridiculous. If you knew *anything* about Green Ronin, you would know damn well that these are their firm beliefs and they stand by them. They are not pandering to anybody to make a sale. The very thought of Chris Pramas and Nicole Lindroos pandering to somebody to make a sale is utterly absurd.




> If Green Ronin suddenly decided to market a product written by pro trump conservative haters of planned parent hood its the exact same thing.  Here's my anecdotal proof that Politics, religion and RPG should not mix: this conversation.  Your article made a statement that they have decided to throw their hats into the political arena rather then just sell geek products to geek people.  I don't care what side of the aisle their on, that's their business and that's their right, please don't tell me that I'm a bad person because I don't want buy products which have obviously been politicized.  If your trying to convince me that I should buy political rhetoric your off to an armature start at best.  You're only attempting to brow beat me into compliance, if you want me to buy proselytizing products you're going to have to learn to proselytize.  Actually, you need to put a finer edge on your technique and learn to both brow beat and proselytizing at the same time.  If you have no experience with this I can recommend several books that, though I have never read them myself, come highly recommended.  First off you should try Snake Oil Salesmanship and Partisan Proselytizing by Rush Limbaugh.  Rush is one of those oily personalities that successfully manages to both proselytize and swindle his audience while simultaneously convincing them that he's a great guy, and he does it all while stoned out of his mind on oxycodone.  I may not like the man, but damn he's good.  Now Rush might not be your speed, perhaps you don't like his subtly or his conservative views, that's ok, I've got another one you'll just love.  It's call Tax Cheating and Brow Beating, How to Swindle A Fortune In Modern Day America by Reverend Al Sharpton.  No one can take on the heir of righteous indignation, brow beat his detractors and proselytize all his followers simultaneously the way Reverend Al can.  Now if threats of imposing hate speech censor ship is your thing, then Reverend Al's instructional guide is the book for you.  Plus Sharpton's book had a huge bonus: it will tell you how to cheat the IRS out of millions, and unlike Trump University its proven to work, after all Reverend Al isn't in jail despite all the millions of back taxes he owes.  What finer a testimonial to his larcenous skill can you ask for?  Now if my trashing of both political parties has thoughtfully annoyed you then maybe you understand my point about politics and RPG being a bad mix.  I'm sure you know that the old adage that states never talk about politics or religion in polite company, and what table with a role playing game on it is any fun if the company isn't polite?




I can't parse that wall of text, but I can see multiple references to US politics there. As you know, politics and religion are not permitted here. Sometimes there is a little leeway allowed so that a subject such as this can be discussed calmly, but full blown political rants are completely against the rules. Please leave the US political references out of the discussion. I suspect that if I could parse it, I'd see a range of insults buried in there, so let's be glad I can't.


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## Hussar (Apr 7, 2017)

> Quote Originally Posted by epithet  View Post
> As amended, the contest is now open to men as long as they have disavowed their masculinity.
> 
> 
> Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...-l-Tabletop-Day-and-more!/page8#ixzz4dYppki8O




"Disavowed their masculinity"?  

Seriously?  That's your takeaway of transgender issues?  It's okay to have a "women writers" contest, but, someone who identifies as a woman is barred because... they've "disavowed their masculinity"?  It's okay to have a "women writers" contest, but, only so long as those women are straight?

Wow. 

-----

Y'know what folks?  This thread went far, far too far off the ranch for EN World's code of conduct.  I've gotta admit, reading this sort of thing just makes me rather sad for a hobby that has spent so much time catering to sidelined geeks and nerds who used to get treated like crap and often bullied.  

D&D and RPG's in general have always been a safe haven hobby for people who are interested in things that mainstream pop culture deemed childish and ridiculous.  Somewhere I can go and talk about being a pretend elf and then actually get together with people and pretend to be an elf.  And no one in the hobby judges me.

Funny how that doesn't seem to apply to anyone else.  Naw, scratch that.  That's not funny.  It's just incredibly sad and depressing.


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## Maggan (Apr 7, 2017)

Reading this thread has made me decide to buy the Green Ronin game when it is released.

That is all.

/M


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## araquael (Apr 7, 2017)

I really hope the GR game does well. It looks really interesting.

Also, here's a thing - writing a game book is freelance writing. It's not covered by any particular labour laws. It's a work-for-hire, and its a contract based agreement. Such writing pays, for example, significantly less than minimum wage, unless you're really fast and efficient at writing. Similar dynamics exist in the film industry - where you have people working 18 hour days on shoots, (for example to get stuff done while the weather is good), which would violate a whole bunch of labour laws _if_ things were structured normally. But they're not.

Nature of the beast. 
White Wolf in the past, for example, has put out submission calls for people with particular backgrounds, to better work on a particular product. The world didn't end. The writing community was dude heavy then, dude heavy now. It's not the end of the world, but being able to broaden the community is really useful. 

Also, this is for one product. Not a line. Not the entire year's output. But a product. It will likely get some new talent in the door or burnish some other talent's reputation. The manosphere can sleep soundly.


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## Lord_Blacksteel (Apr 7, 2017)

Hussar said:


> And, let's be completely honest here. Heterosexual White Male is hardly a disadvantage when you do enter open contests. The same may very well not be true otherwise.




I'm a little curious - if someone submits a story to a contest on the internet how does one automatically know the race, nationality, or gender of the author? Are they making writers fill out a form that asks these things? The name might give some idea as to gender but it doesn't necessarily help much on the rest.


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## epithet (Apr 7, 2017)

Hussar said:


> "Disavowed their masculinity"?
> 
> Seriously?  That's your takeaway of transgender issues?  It's okay to have a "women writers" contest, but, someone who identifies as a woman is barred because... they've "disavowed their masculinity"?  It's okay to have a "women writers" contest, but, only so long as those women are straight?




I thought I had made it clear that I had no issue with the original "identifies as female" wording. My issue was the inclusion of "non-binary" turned the thing from "women" to "not men," from pro-female to anti-male. You might not agree with my assessment (clearly you don't) but please don't misrepresent this as "my takeaway of transgender issues."


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## Caliban (Apr 7, 2017)

Lord_Blacksteel said:


> I'm a little curious - if someone submits a story to a contest on the internet how does one automatically know the race, nationality, or gender of the author? Are they making writers fill out a form that asks these things? The name might give some idea as to gender but it doesn't necessarily help much on the rest.




People lie and misrepresent themselves in contests all the time.  Nothing stops someone from saying whatever they want on the entry form.  But presumably the top choices will be checked out a bit more thoroughly before the winner is chosen.


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## Caliban (Apr 7, 2017)

epithet said:


> I thought I had made it clear that I had no issue with the original "identifies as female" wording. My issue was the inclusion of "non-binary" turned the thing from "women" to "not men," from pro-female to anti-male. You might not agree with my assessment (clearly you don't) but please don't misrepresent this as "my takeaway of transgender issues."




At this point it sounds like you are just looking for something to be outraged about.


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## epithet (Apr 7, 2017)

Abstruse said:


> Clearly. So why are you attempting to speak on a subject you admit your own ignorance about?




Because I do not need to have a full and complete understanding of what "non-binary gender" means in the strictest global sense in order to grasp the clear meaning of the term used in this context. To qualify for this contest, one doesn't have to identify as "female" any more, the revised language implies gender identities beyond the binary "male" and "female" and expressly welcomes them, meaning that a person born male could participate as long as the male identity had been abandoned regardless of whether the destination identity was "female." Thus an event for women became an event for anyone but men.

I don't know why this is such a contentious issue. The clear unequivocal language of the post changes a contest open to those who identify as female into a contest open to everyone except those who identify as male. Are you unwilling to acknowledge that shift in tone? Are you going to suggest that there is no difference from "something special just for you" to "something special for anyone _but _you?"


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## epithet (Apr 7, 2017)

Caliban said:


> At this point it sounds like you are just looking for something to be outraged about.




I was mildly irked over the "anyone but you" tone of Green Ronin's clarifying statement, but I am much more unsettled by the way my first comment in this thread has been misrepresented. I haven't gotten anywhere near outrage, however. I might have gotten all the way to indignation, but I won't know for sure until there's been more coffee this morning.


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## Caliban (Apr 7, 2017)

epithet said:


> Because I do not need to have a full and complete understanding of what "non-binary gender" means in the strictest global sense in order to grasp the clear meaning of the term used in this context. To qualify for this contest, one doesn't have to identify as "female" any more, the revised language implies gender identities beyond the binary "male" and "female" and expressly welcomes them, meaning that a person born male could participate as long as the male identity had been abandoned regardless of whether the destination identity was "female." Thus an event for women became an event for anyone but men.




Yes, that's kind of the point.  How do you not understand this?  They feel that the male point of view has dominated the gaming industry for decades, so they are specifically soliciting submissions from non-males to hopefully get a more diverse pool of viewpoints. 

  They are deliberately trying to go outside the norm.  It may end up with a lot of crap submissions and turn out to be a waste of time and money, but they may also get something new and interesting that they would have otherwise missed without a talent search/contest like this.   It's a risk they have chosen to take.


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## Doctor Futurity (Apr 7, 2017)

Maggan said:


> Reading this thread has made me decide to buy the Green Ronin game when it is released.
> 
> That is all.
> 
> /M




Damn straight. Green Ronin gets all my money with their releases.


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## Doctor Futurity (Apr 7, 2017)

epithet said:


> Because I do not need to have a full and complete understanding of what "non-binary gender" means in the strictest global sense in order to grasp the clear meaning of the term used in this context. To qualify for this contest, one doesn't have to identify as "female" any more, the revised language implies gender identities beyond the binary "male" and "female" and expressly welcomes them, meaning that a person born male could participate as long as the male identity had been abandoned regardless of whether the destination identity was "female." Thus an event for women became an event for anyone but men.
> 
> I don't know why this is such a contentious issue. The clear unequivocal language of the post changes a contest open to those who identify as female into a contest open to everyone except those who identify as male. Are you unwilling to acknowledge that shift in tone? Are you going to suggest that there is no difference from "something special just for you" to "something special for anyone _but _you?"




Dude, we already have ALL the special. Green Ronin is a couple guys graciously sharing a bit of the special with people who have less. If you think holding a special contest for "people who are not male heterosexuals" is somehow damaging your standing in life then my suspicion is you must have a pretty crappy life relative to mine.

How would you feel if the contest had been for submissions from African-American authors, also underrepresented in gaming? Or Asian authors? At what point do you feel you've finally been tricked out of that "slick paying gig" at Green Ronin because you were a man, or white? 

In the real world, I am very well aware of the fact that at least part of the reason for my success in life has had nothing to do with my ability, and at least partially due to my being a white male. I have yet to meet another white male who hasn't also benefited from being such, although I will note that the least successful ones somehow managed to be stupid enough to offset their birthright's inherent value.


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## epithet (Apr 7, 2017)

Caliban said:


> Yes, that's kind of the point.  How do you not understand this?  ...




I do understand it. I fully comprehend their objectives. I'm just positing the notion that hammering a "no boys allowed" sign over the tree house door isn't perhaps the most positive way to go about reaching their goal. It is, in my opinion, unnecessarily antagonistic. Clearly my opinion is not widely shared, and that's ok, but I felt like my position was being misread and misrepresented as something hostile, which is wasn't. No one enjoys being arbitrarily singled out for exclusion, and in fact doing so in the name of inclusivity seems particularly contrary.


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## Doctor Futurity (Apr 7, 2017)

epithet said:


> I do understand it. I fully comprehend their objectives. I'm just positing the notion that hammering a "no boys allowed" sign over the tree house door isn't perhaps the most positive way to go about reaching their goal. It is, in my opinion, unnecessarily antagonistic. Clearly my opinion is not widely shared, and that's ok, but I felt like my position was being misread and misrepresented as something hostile, which is wasn't. No one enjoys being arbitrarily singled out for exclusion, and in fact doing so in the name of inclusivity seems particularly contrary.




I'll agree with this much: it probably isn't the best way, I agree. I think GR has a habit of excluding dialogue through overt "stance taking" in prior press releases, which shuts out the process of actually getting a message to the people who count. 

Imagine if this had been a themed contest in which women and LGBT were strongly encouraged to submit material, but which did not actually exclude men. One way to do something like that would be to clarify that the contest seeks work which incorporates or addresses LGBT and women's issues. This would now mean you, as a man, could submit something, but need to provide content related to the issues to be addressed. Would you have accepted it? I think it would have been a way to make an inclusive, teaching-focused contest. That said: GR may not want to waste time with trying to incorporate an inclusive, thematic contest and then get deluged (anyway) with hundreds of alt-right men-first sentiment or flak online, which I feel would have happened regardless of how the contest was framed.


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## redrick (Apr 7, 2017)

Sunsword said:


> No matter how it's spun, to me it implies that Nicole and C.E. are saying that either women can't compete with male authors (which is ridiculous) or that they are not capable of choosing the best writer for the job without their biases overriding talent (which is sad). I don't see it as the better of two evils, I see it as a sad commentary of how far to the left equality can be derailed.
> 
> I know that my gaming tables are much more diverse now then the were in 1991, 1997, and 2007. And so is the industry. As someone who runs a small chain of comic and game stores I am proud that females make up about 30% of our customers. Perhaps there is room to grow for females in this industry not because we are inherently sexist, but because we are finding better ways to reach them. I am the father of 3 daughters, they are all fierce competitors and the idea that the creative playing field is not equal isn't palatable to any of them in this instance.




I imagine that the reason to make the contest/search specifically for women is as much about attracting as many women, transgender and non-binary people as possible as it is about limiting the pool for the GR staff to sift through. By saying, "hey, we have a contest for You!", maybe they will get more submissions from people who otherwise might not of submitted, either because of hesitation or simply because they weren't aware of the contest to begin with. Maybe some women will say, "screw that, I don't want to compete in a limited pool" and choose not to submit.


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## epithet (Apr 7, 2017)

Doctor Futurity said:


> Dude, we already have ALL the special. Green Ronin is a couple guys graciously sharing a bit of the special with people who have less.




And that's cool. I'm just saying "more women" is a better way to say it than "fewer men." Or in this case, "anyone who is female" carries a better connotation than "anyone who isn't male." That's all I'm saying.


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## Caliban (Apr 7, 2017)

epithet said:


> I do understand it. I fully comprehend their objectives. I'm just positing the notion that hammering a "no boys allowed" sign over the tree house door isn't perhaps the most positive way to go about reaching their goal. It is, in my opinion, unnecessarily antagonistic. Clearly my opinion is not widely shared, and that's ok, but I felt like my position was being misread and misrepresented as something hostile, which is wasn't. No one enjoys being arbitrarily singled out for exclusion, and in fact doing so in the name of inclusivity seems particularly contrary.




So getting a tiny (oh so tiny!) taste of what transgender people and women (and a host of other minorities) have had to deal with for centuries is antagonizing you?   My heartfelt condolences to your newly discovered sense of oppression. 

It's only "antagonistic" if you are looking for something to be antagonized about.


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## epithet (Apr 7, 2017)

Caliban said:


> So getting a tiny (oh so tiny!) taste of what transgender people and women (and a host of other minorities) have had to deal with for centuries is antagonizing you?   My heartfelt condolences to your newly discovered sense of oppression.
> 
> It's only "antagonistic" if you are looking for something to be antagonized about.




I see.

It is unfortunate that you've gone there, although I suppose it was inevitable that someone would. Let's just get this out of the way: you have no clue what I have or haven't faced in my life, and even if you did it wouldn't be relevant. You don't get to tell a person that they need to stop complaining about getting poked with a stick just because some other folks were run over by a truck. I'm fully aware that human history is filled to overflowing with people who've had it worse off than me, and I'm absolutely not playing for sympathy here (or anywhere.) Nothing about this thread, Green Ronin's talent search for women, or in fact anything I would even remotely expect you to be aware of constitutes anything even vaguely resembling an oppression of me.

Your post, however, does express a dismissiveness that is, based on what I've seen of your other posts on this site over the years, beneath you.


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## Caliban (Apr 7, 2017)

epithet said:


> I see.
> 
> It is unfortunate that you've gone there, although I suppose it was inevitable that someone would....
> 
> Your post, however, does express a dismissiveness that is, based on what I've seen of your other posts on this site over the years, beneath you.




Oh, the irony.


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## redrick (Apr 7, 2017)

epithet said:


> And that's cool. I'm just saying "more women" is a better way to say it than "fewer men." Or in this case, "anyone who is female" carries a better connotation than "anyone who isn't male." That's all I'm saying.




I'm unable to find the quote which you are referring to.

As I understand it, Green Ronin made it clear that, in addition to wanting to include women in this talent search, they also wanted to include people of non-binary gender. Is it the inclusion of non-binary folks that offends you, or is it the language defining non-binary?

I am imagining the white male party across the hall from the Green Ronin event, with two non-binary folks standing in the corner. A few minutes in, the non-binary folks get a text message and go over to the Green Ronin event. Nobody was inviting them to participate in the Men Only contest being cooked up over by the punch bowl, but now that they leave, everybody throws their solo cups to the floor and shouts, "Now that does it! At first we thought it was that you only wanted women with vaginas, but now it's clear that you want EVERYBODY except the manly men!"


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## ssspaladin (Apr 7, 2017)

The vitriol I see in this thread absolutely baffles me. For the record I've been gaming since the early 1970s and have been a freelance writer/developer since the mid-80s, I'm friends with Ari, CA, Chris and many of the other people involved in the Lost Citadel project. To address all the Internet lawyers who are claiming sex discrimination... GR is conducting a TALENT SEARCH. It is not a guarantee of employment, nor is it any kind of hiring discrimination -- it is exactly what is printed on the box -- a search for new authors and creators. GR would like to include more female and female-identified creators on this project, which they are entirely legally, ethically and morally entitled to do. In pursuit of this goal they have begun a TALENT SEARCH to find such creators. 

GR is not saying that they will not hire men, they are not saying that men will be excluded from creative jobs on Lost Citadel or any other project. They are asking interested individuals from a certain group to submit work and be considered for future assignments. This is so that GR will have more female writers among its roster of writers and creators. It is not to prevent men from working for them. To suggest otherwise is just plain stupid -- as a male writer I've produced a number of products for Green Ronin and many other companies, and believe me there is no discrimination against men in any of them, given that the vast majority of freelancers are men. The desire to bring more women and minorities into the rpg industry is an admirable one, and a talent search such as this is one way of attracting them.

Even if GR chose to publish a collection of RPG products by women, there is nothing illegal about this, or else you'd see publishers of series like "Women of Wonder," "Genesis: An Anthology of Black SF" and "Where the Stars Rise: Asian SF" (and many others) sued. Contracting individual authors as work for hire contractors (which is what an author is, essentially) for an anthology with specific author requirements is not discriminatory, either legally or ethically. I'm sorry, but a lot of the people on this thread have a very poor understanding of what constitutes discrimination.


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## Caliban (Apr 7, 2017)

epithet said:


> And that's cool. I'm just saying "more women" is a better way to say it than "fewer men." Or in this case, "anyone who is female" carries a better connotation than "anyone who isn't male." That's all I'm saying.




So your position is that, you aren't feeling outraged, you aren't feeling oppressed in any way, and you aren't objecting to being excluded from the contest. 

You are just objecting to *the way* you are being excluded? 

   I can see why you feel this is a major issue that needs to be acknowledged and addressed.   But perhaps a message board not affiliated with Green Ronin isn't the best way to get your message out.


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## epithet (Apr 7, 2017)

Caliban said:


> So your position is that, you aren't feeling outraged, you aren't feeling oppressed in any way, and you aren't objecting to being excluded from the contest.
> 
> You are just objecting to *the way* you are being excluded?
> 
> I can see why you feel this is a major issue that needs to be acknowledged and addressed.   But perhaps a message board not affiliated with Green Ronin isn't the best way to get your message out.




Dude, I didn't start this conversation. I don't have "a message" that I'm trying to get out, I was just participating in a discussion. At least, that's what I thought I was doing... although apparently some people thought I was trying to offer a trite summary of certain gender issues--a perception I sought to correct.

I'm not excluded from anything, since I'm not currently an author seeking any sort of publication. My gender doesn't factor into the equation. I can't imagine getting outraged by something like this, and I actually laughed at the guy on the first page who hammered out a wall-of-text screed about it. Clearly, though, you have seized upon my musings as an opportunity to deploy your rapier wit wield sarcasm to strike a blow for social justice.

Bravo.


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## Caliban (Apr 7, 2017)

epithet said:


> Dude, I didn't start this conversation. I don't have "a message" that I'm trying to get out, I was just participating in a discussion. At least, that's what I thought I was doing... although apparently some people thought I was trying to offer a trite summary of certain gender issues--a perception I sought to correct.
> 
> I'm not excluded from anything, since I'm not currently an author seeking any sort of publication. My gender doesn't factor into the equation. I can't imagine getting outraged by something like this, and I actually laughed at the guy on the first page who hammered out a wall-of-text screed about it. Clearly, though, you have seized upon my musings as an opportunity to deploy your rapier wit wield sarcasm to strike a blow for social justice.
> 
> Bravo.




Well, I glad my efforts do not go unappreciated.   But am I wrong?  All I've been able to glean from your posts is that you mainly object to how they worded it.   Which just seems incredibly petty to me.


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## Michael Dean (Apr 7, 2017)

fulcon35 said:


> This post is not meant to address any other post this forum or address their opinion in any way because I am not here to thought police anyone and truth be told I don't really post much of any thing at all.  That said I will not ever buy another Green Ronin product again for the same reason I don't entertain Jehovah's Witnesses on my door step, that is if I cared about your politics or religious beliefs I would ask about your politics or religious beliefs.  I was a huge Star Wars fan my whole life.  Grew up a fan boy, can tell you which companies designed and manufactured 3PO and R2 and the exact make and model of Han's heavy Blaster Pistol.  I will never watch another Star Wars movie ever again either.  When Disney decided that they were going to have their new feminists publicists refer to the empire as a white power organization I tried my best not to vomit.  I failed.  After I cleaned the chunks off my lap top I promptly emailed my friends that I would not be watching Rouge One, ever.  My friends have even offered my the opportunity to see it for free, still won't do it.  When I even see trailers for rouge one I try not to vomit. I fail.  After hurling in the face's of several of my friends who kept trying to get me to watch they decided that my chunks were not worth the trouble of trying to convert me anymore and gave up.  Why this extreme reaction, because if there's one thing I do not want in my fictional entertainment its real world politics.  When you have to sell your story, movie, play, etc. by pandering to left wing political elitism or right wing religious ideologies that means only one thing: your story sucks.  I was particularly aggrieved when George Lucas decided to dub Anakin Skywalker: Jesus Vader by deciding he was an immaculate conception.  Wouldn't have minded an all female casts of Ghostbusters at all if they hadn't written a script that even your average ten year old didn't find funny and hadn't decided to force feminism down everybody's throats.  I never listened to the right wing when they railed against gay marriage i'm not listening about the left wing whine about the LBGT community non stop either.  All in all if we, the geek community, keep buying products that pander to either left wing or right wing ideologies we will lose this meaningless hobby that we love so much.  Propaganda is not for entertainment, its for indoctrination.  Gary Gygax made a game millions of geeks still love even after he was gone, he didn't try to indoctrinate us into a cult no matter what the religious nuts said.  He just gave us food for our imagination and to this day millions of us are grateful to him for that.  Star Wars was once all about a great, fun, fast moving, scifi epic about the struggle of the light vs the dark, now its about feminists rhetoric and pandering to liberals. I spend a lot of time eating member berries these days remembering a time when I could read a book that was just a book or watch a movie that was just a movie and above all else play and RPG that was just an RPG, not an exercise in socialist propaganda.  Disney did it to their marvel line of comic books when they decided to inundate their titles with leftist propaganda and sales have dropped off drastically according to what I've read, and the same thing will happen to RPG if companies like Green Ronin try to force a political agenda in our face rather then just entertain us.  I liked Green Ronin's stuff.  I own ASIF, the DC universe RPG, but I'll never but anything else from them just like I won't ever watch another Star Wars movie while Disney wants to tell me how I should think rather then just take my imagination to a place a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.




Two issues here: 1. You have some serious issues with vomit and should get it checked out; and 2. For the love of God it's ROGUE ONE!!!  ROGUE ONE!!! Not "Rouge One!"  Get it right, dammit.


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## epithet (Apr 7, 2017)

Caliban said:


> Well, I glad my efforts do not go unappreciated.   But am I wrong?  All I've been able to glean from your posts is that you mainly object to how they worded it.   Which just seems incredibly petty to me.




No, I honestly think that while it's cool to reach out to women, it's not cool to go the next step and make it clear that you're not so much championing women as excluding men. I see one as positive, the other as negative. I understand that nuance generally has no place on the internet, but I keep trying.

What I don't understand is how my opinion can be petty. I'm not complaining, not demanding redress, not claiming any personal impact. I'm not suggesting that people who don't share my opinion are wrong. I'm just participating in a conversation that has no direct impact on me whatsoever, because I happened to have a relevant opinion.

Somehow we've gone from a conversation about whether or not it's cool to nail a "no boys allowed" sign over the door to your treehouse to a discussion of some of my various possible character flaws. Hey, if that's where you want to take this, I could probably use the therapy.


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## redrick (Apr 7, 2017)

epithet said:


> No, I honestly think that while it's cool to reach out to women, it's not cool to go the next step and make it clear that you're not so much championing women as excluding men. I see one as positive, the other as negative. I understand that nuance generally has no place on the internet, but I keep trying.
> 
> What I don't understand is how my opinion can be petty. I'm not complaining, not demanding redress, not claiming any personal impact. I'm not suggesting that people who don't share my opinion are wrong. I'm just participating in a conversation that has no direct impact on me whatsoever, because I happened to have a relevant opinion.
> 
> Somehow we've gone from a conversation about whether or not it's cool to nail a "no boys allowed" sign over the door to your treehouse to a discussion of some of my various possible character flaws. Hey, if that's where you want to take this, I could probably use the therapy.




The question I have is simply how the move from "women only" to "women and gender non-binary only" crosses the line into "no boys allowed club" for you. Is this the post that put you over the edge? https://greenronin.com/lostcitadel/lost-citadel-news/



> History shows us that women often feel apprehensive about trying to make their way in arenas that are traditionally male-dominated, even when the talent and willingness to contribute are there, and being proactive about including them is one of the best ways to address that concern.
> 
> And for clarity’s sake: Tabletop gaming is one of those largely male-dominated arenas.




Or is there some other post not linked in the original EN World article that contained that contained the language you are concerned over? This is an honest question.

We talk a lot about the subtlety language and, hey, I agree, language is important, but I haven't figured out what actual piece of language is that you are concerned about. The above post that I quoted doesn't strike me as being anti-man. It's simply stating some of the justification for wanting to focus on women creators — males largely dominate this field. Without actively working to include women, males will continue to largely dominate this field, because these things are self perpetuating, even without any intention of discrimination.


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## epithet (Apr 7, 2017)

Doctor Futurity said:


> ... Imagine if this had been a themed contest in which women and LGBT were strongly encouraged to submit material, but which did not actually exclude men. One way to do something like that would be to clarify that the contest seeks work which incorporates or addresses LGBT and women's issues. This would now mean you, as a man, could submit something, but need to provide content related to the issues to be addressed. Would you have accepted it? I think it would have been a way to make an inclusive, teaching-focused contest. That said: GR may not want to waste time with trying to incorporate an inclusive, thematic contest and then get deluged (anyway) with hundreds of alt-right men-first sentiment or flak online, which I feel would have happened regardless of how the contest was framed.




I don't disagree with you, but I also think it is worthwhile to specifically encourage women to write about any and all topics, not just women's issues. I'd like to see women write about dungeon ecology, magic item creation, trade practices among underdark cultures, nesting behavior of dragons by age and scale color, etc. 

Not to put too fine a point on it, but if the largest segment of the game writer demographic wouldn't be interested in writing a certain issue-focussed piece, then in all likelihood a similar segment of the gamer demographic wouldn't be interested in reading it. Women need to be encouraged to write whatever they want to write, but at the end of the day women's voices will be heard more broadly if they're writing the stuff that everyone wants to read.


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## Doctor Futurity (Apr 7, 2017)

epithet said:


> I don't disagree with you, but I also think it is worthwhile to specifically encourage women to write about any and all topics, not just women's issues. I'd like to see women write about dungeon ecology, magic item creation, trade practices among underdark cultures, nesting behavior of dragons by age and scale color, etc.
> 
> Not to put too fine a point on it, but if the largest segment of the game writer demographic wouldn't be interested in writing a certain issue-focussed piece, then in all likelihood a similar segment of the gamer demographic wouldn't be interested in reading it. Women need to be encouraged to write whatever they want to write, but at the end of the day women's voices will be heard more broadly if they're writing the stuff that everyone wants to read.




On the second paragraph I think we'd need some demographic sampling to sort out whether this is true or not. My experience is that there's non-insignificant percentage of gamers who are women, enough so that a fair amount of media in gaming in general targets them specifically. There is profit to be had here when a game company is able to broaden its appeal. Likewise, the industry won't grow to encompass the full audience without going through some effort and growing pains. 

The end goal is really easy: men and women able to write on topics without a sense of controversy, in equal numbers (since we're all a 50/50 split on the general population) with a fan base for gaming that is completely disinterested in the fact that the author is a man or woman other than for basic curiosity. To reach this goal is going to require effort, however, because culturally we are fighting deeply ingrained traditions that are so thoroughly part of the collective consciousness that we all buy in to it as implicit truth, when in fact it is not at all. So experiments like GR are a step in that direction, but it's fighting against a long cultural history of deliberate and often unconscious oppression.

Lifting the oppression will work both ways: men will perhaps one day feel more comfortable with being exposed to a woman's writing, and women will feel confident that they can submit work and be taken equally seriously in the ideal future environment. But a lot....A LOT...of cultural blood must be shed before we get there.


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## epithet (Apr 7, 2017)

redrick said:


> The question I have is simply how the move from "women only" to "women and gender non-binary only" crosses the line into "no boys allowed club" for you. ...




I only read the blurb on the front page here at ENWorld, I didn't follow links to original statements because it was never my intention to get this deep into the weeds on this topic.

To answer your question, the (apparently) original blurb in red text cheerfully declares "a talent search for women who are interested in coming to work on the project. If you identify as female and dark fantasy is your jam, we want to see what you can bring to the table! Not to worry, fellas, we have some other opportunities for you coming up later in the year, as well, but this talent search is just for the ladies." As I've said way too many times, that seemed cool to me.

Then, the blurb refers to a clarification advising that "the talent search was also open to those who identify as non-binary gender." That means it's not "just for the ladies." It means it's for anyone but the "fellas."

It is my opinion that the clarifying statement changed the tone of the overall statement from "girls' special treehouse" to "no boys allowed," the former being a positive message directed at women, the latter a negative message directed at men.

That's just my opinion, based on my perception and reading of a blurb purporting to quote a couple of primary sources. If I had known my opinion mattered this much, I would probably have gone ahead and read the source text...

Who am I kidding? If I had known there would be this much analysis of my off-the-cuff remark, I would have kept my damn thoughts to myself.


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## epithet (Apr 7, 2017)

Doctor Futurity said:


> ...men will perhaps one day feel more comfortable with being exposed to a woman's writing...



Asking in all seriousness: do you really think a significant number of men are uncomfortable reading a woman's writing? That seems like an incredible assertion.


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## Caliban (Apr 7, 2017)

epithet said:


> Somehow we've gone from a conversation about whether or not it's cool to nail a "no boys allowed" sign over the door to your treehouse to a discussion of some of my various possible character flaws. Hey, if that's where you want to take this, I could probably use the therapy.






			
				epithet said:
			
		

> Who am I kidding? If I had known there would be this much analysis of my off-the-cuff remark, I would have kept my damn thoughts to myself.




Playing the victim card?  Seriously?  Don't try to make this about you. 

I simply don't agree with your opinion on this.  That is all.  This is a single talent search, from a single game company in a single market (RPG's) in a tiny sector of the overall gaming industry.  

Based on a single blurb, where you admit to doing no further research, you have declared "they are doing it wrong."  They explicitly want submissions from non-male authors, but because they have chosen to define "non-male" to include "non-binary gender" people as well, you have decided they crossed some sort of line.    That is what I think is "petty".   It's just silly to be upset (or whatever level of dissatisfaction you want rate yourself as feeling) about this. 

And now you are upset because people (or perhaps just me, since this is supposed to be "beneath me" for some reason) disagree with your opinion.


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## The M'hael (Apr 7, 2017)

epithet said:


> I only read the blurb on the front page here at ENWorld, I didn't follow links to original statements because it was never my intention to get this deep into the weeds on this topic.
> 
> To answer your question, the (apparently) original blurb in red text cheerfully declares "a talent search for women who are interested in coming to work on the project. If you identify as female and dark fantasy is your jam, we want to see what you can bring to the table! Not to worry, fellas, we have some other opportunities for you coming up later in the year, as well, but this talent search is just for the ladies." As I've said way too many times, that seemed cool to me.
> 
> ...






I agree that the inclusion of non-binary people does point it to all "No Boys" kind of view, but I don't think that was their intention. There is a huge number of male individuals and a huge number of female individuals. Transgender individuals shift some people around, but it stays basically the same. There are also a small number of individuals who do not identify as male or female all of the time, or at all. These individuals being included in the contest was out of kindness. Green Ronin is so small they can't do a contest for females and a separate contest for non-binary people. 

I think their intention was not to have a contest for "anyone but the fellas" but for "the ladies" AND nonbinary individuals too. Someone at GR could have been reading the announcement and thought "we're not including non-binary people in our contest, that's a bit discriminatory. They already get excluded from so much, we shouldn't add on to that." I honestly think it was more of a "toss in" than anything explicitly intended to make the contest exclusionary. Nevertheless, by writing out a list of gender identities that included "everyone but the fellas" GR made it appear to be exclusionary.

Sort of like having a contest for writers from South America, and then later saying that if you are from Central America you can participate too. So then what was intended to be an inclusionary change appears to now exclude North America.


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## Caliban (Apr 7, 2017)

The M'hael said:


> I agree that the inclusion of non-binary people does point it to all "No Boys" kind of view, but I don't think that was their intention. There is a huge number of male individuals and a huge number of female individuals. Transgender individuals shift some people around, but it stays basically the same. There are also a small number of individuals who do not identify as male or female all of the time, or at all. These individuals being included in the contest was out of kindness. Green Ronin is so small they can't do a contest for females and a separate contest for non-binary people.
> I think their intention was not to have a contest for "anyone but the fellas" but for "the ladies" AND nonbinary individuals too. Someone at GR could have been reading the announcement and thought "we're not including non-binary people in our contest, that's a bit discriminatory. They already get excluded from so much, we shouldn't add on to that." I honestly think it was more of a "toss in" than anything explicitly intended to make the contest exclusionary. Nevertheless, by writing out a list of gender identities that included "everyone but the fellas" GR made it appear to be exclusionary.




Even if it was their intention to have a contest for "anyone but the fellas"  (not saying it is, but what if) - so what?  

Seriously, it's a private company running a contest.  Their contest, their rules.    

They could run a talent search and only accept submissions from white hetero men who can bench 250 lbs and it would still be fine.   (And certain men's fitness magazines probably have criteria similar to that.  ) 

  This whole debate is just silly.


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## Doctor Futurity (Apr 7, 2017)

epithet said:


> Asking in all seriousness: do you really think a significant number of men are uncomfortable reading a woman's writing? That seems like an incredible assertion.




I don't understand it either, but a combination of life and the internet has taught me that many men....especially young men....have a hard time with any media in which they feel the "woman's perspective" is being presented to them. The mere act of putting a woman's name on the cover can cause issues.*

There's actual evidence in the publishing industry for this. A lot of female authors in science fiction and fantasy (and other genres) have historically chosen gender-ambivalent names to help disguise the fact that they were women. This was a common fact of life for publishers,
 and considered necessary to avoid diminished sales in many cases (I'll try to find my source, a book on the history of publishing I read a decade or so ago). This was explained along with the reason for pseudonyms when writing in genre fiction to protect the dignity of an author from being diminished be delving into trashier literary genres, or ditching names which lacked the right gravitas for a cover, among other issues.

EDIT: to be honest, if men in general did not have this sort of issue, then I doubt we'd be having this ridiculously long, stupid thread on GR's contest to help promote women writers.

*In defense of some of these guys I know and have known over the years with this isue, a few are aware this feeling is irrational but also can't deny it still affects them.


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## The M'hael (Apr 7, 2017)

I agree with you. I think this debate is a bit silly.
I was just trying to facilitate communication by pointing out that [MENTION=6796566]epithet[/MENTION] had a valid concern but that Green Ronin did not have bad intentions. 

You do provide the bottom line, that the company can have whatever criteria they want.


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## epithet (Apr 7, 2017)

Caliban said:


> Playing the victim card?  Seriously?  Don't try to make this about you.
> ...
> And now you are upset because people (or perhaps just me, since this is supposed to be "beneath me" for some reason) disagree with your opinion.




I missed something. How am I a victim? 'Cause as far as I am aware, I'm not a victim.

I also didn't make this about me. Some have questioned my motives or perspective, and I've answered. Not remotely the same as making it about me--in fact I have pointed out that none of this is directly relevant to me. I've also pointed out (repeatedly) that I didn't regard people who disagreed with my opinion as necessarily wrong. I mean, clearly _your _opinion is wrong, because your opinion is that _I'm_ wrong. That _can't_ be right.

No, what I had thought was "beneath you" was the implication that whatever "oppression" I experienced from this was invalidated by the fact that others had gotten worse, earlier. I imagined you were above such a nonsensical argument--perhaps I confused you with someone else. Sorry about that. By all means, carry on.


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## Xethreau (Apr 7, 2017)

Can I just say that promoting the voice of an under-represented population in your industry actually _increases _equality?


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## Caliban (Apr 7, 2017)

epithet said:


> I missed something. How am I a victim? 'Cause as far as I am aware, I'm not a victim.
> 
> I also didn't make this about me. Some have questioned my motives or perspective, and I've answered. Not remotely the same as making it about me--in fact I have pointed out that none of this is directly relevant to me. I've also pointed out (repeatedly) that I didn't regard people who disagreed with my opinion as necessarily wrong. I mean, clearly _your _opinion is wrong, because your opinion is that _I'm_ wrong. That _can't_ be right.
> 
> No, what I had thought was "beneath you" was the implication that whatever "oppression" I experienced from this was invalidated by the fact that others had gotten worse, earlier. I imagined you were above such a nonsensical argument--perhaps I confused you with someone else. Sorry about that. By all means, carry on.




Nicely passive aggressive.


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## epithet (Apr 7, 2017)

The M'hael said:


> ... I think this debate is a bit silly. ...




This is undeniably silly, but I'm not convinced it is a debate.


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## epithet (Apr 7, 2017)

Caliban said:


> Nicely passive aggressive.




So good of you to notice.


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## Caliban (Apr 7, 2017)

Xethreau said:


> Can I just say that promoting the voice of an under-represented population in your industry actually _increases _equality?




Only if you do it exactly the right way, otherwise you are excluding men (and only men) and that just isn't right.   You have to exclude at least one other group of people in addition to men...or something.   I really don't understand the argument.   

Just don't be unfair to men while you are promoting whatever under represented population you decide needs a boost.  It's bad, m'kay?


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## Xethreau (Apr 7, 2017)

Caliban said:


> Just don't be unfair to men while you are promoting whatever under represented population you decide needs a boost. It's bad, m'kay?




Let's get 50% of RPG authors to be female first, eh?


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## Caliban (Apr 7, 2017)

Xethreau said:


> Let's get 50% of RPG authors to be female first, eh?




Just in case it wasn't clear - I was being very sarcastic.


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## Hussar (Apr 8, 2017)

Doctor Futurity said:


> I don't understand it either, but a combination of life and the internet has taught me that many men....especially young men....have a hard time with any media in which they feel the "woman's perspective" is being presented to them. The mere act of putting a woman's name on the cover can cause issues.*
> 
> There's actual evidence in the publishing industry for this. A lot of female authors in science fiction and fantasy (and other genres) have historically chosen gender-ambivalent names to help disguise the fact that they were women. This was a common fact of life for publishers,
> and considered necessary to avoid diminished sales in many cases (I'll try to find my source, a book on the history of publishing I read a decade or so ago). This was explained along with the reason for pseudonyms when writing in genre fiction to protect the dignity of an author from being diminished be delving into trashier literary genres, or ditching names which lacked the right gravitas for a cover, among other issues.
> ...




If you want evidence, ask yourself why we refer to her as "J.K." Rowlings.  I mean, it's George R.R. Martin.  Stephen King.  But, still JK Rowlings.


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## epithet (Apr 8, 2017)

Hussar said:


> If you want evidence, ask yourself why we refer to her as "J.K." Rowlings.  I mean, it's George R.R. Martin.  Stephen King.  But, still JK Rowlings.



Huh... I always assumed it was a nod to Tolkien. By the time I'd heard of Harry Potter, everyone already knew who she was.


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## Abstruse (Apr 8, 2017)

epithet said:


> Huh... I always assumed it was a nod to Tolkien. By the time I'd heard of Harry Potter, everyone already knew who she was.



She specifically took the name "J. K. Rowling" because she was told "boys won't want to read a book written by a woman" when she was first published.


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## Dualazi (Apr 8, 2017)

Hussar said:


> Why is it that this conversation goes south so quickly?




Because both sides see their cause as morally just and that they have an imperative to defend it.



Hussar said:


> Good grief - it's a talent contest for FEMALE AUTHORS.  Is there a problem with gender specific talent contests?  I don't think so.  We do have gender divided sports after all.  It's a contest to see the best that FEMALE AUTHORS can come up with.




Sports are segregated due to increased physical capabilities of men, at the high end of physical potential women simply can’t compete against them. Interestingly, this same issue is basically being raised in the sports world where MtF trans athletes are winning over biological women, and there’s certainly debate about the fairness in this situation.

When it comes to writing, there’s no such distinction. I’m pretty sure men and women can both write a module or think up magic items, so the need for exclusion based on practicality is largely moot.



Hussar said:


> Now, it might very well suck rocks.  Who knows?  It might be fantastic.  It might be somewhere in the middle.  But, the idea that it's somehow discriminatory to have a contest for a specific group of people is ludicrous.  We do it all the bloody time.  And it's a great way to highlight work that might otherwise get lost in the background signal noise.




When they do their alleged subsequent male available talent display, is it going to be male only, or will women be able to enter that one as well and double dip? My point is that in today’s society if a company put out a call for a writing gig and specifically noted that only men could apply, they’d have reversed it inside a day from social pressures and bad press, no matter who else they’d hired or for what reason. 

Despite the unlikeliness on it happening based on my predictions above, I’ll be adopting a wait-and-see approach. If GR down the line drops a similar contest that’s only for men, then all’s well and good. If they don’t I’ll likely be taking a hard look at whether or not I’m interested in their material going forward.


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## Abstruse (Apr 8, 2017)

Jester David said:


> View attachment 83141
> 
> Right now there are systemic issues in place. Things are NOT equal, and they don't become more equal by pretending things are fair, by ignoring barriers that are in place.
> The hard fact is, opening the contest to everyone just *isn't* giving everyone an equal chance.
> ...




Quoting this because people still don't seem to get it.

For those who still don't: White straight men are represented by the tall person. The boxes are submission restrictions to contests/talent searches and anthologies seeking authors of a specific gender/ethnicity/sexual orientation/etc.

I can literally think of no better way to explain it other than Jester David did. It's a very simple concept.


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## Dualazi (Apr 8, 2017)

Abstruse said:


> Quoting this because people still don't seem to get it.
> 
> For those who still don't: White straight men are represented by the tall person. The boxes are submission restrictions to contests/talent searches and anthologies seeking authors of a specific gender/ethnicity/sexual orientation/etc.
> 
> I can literally think of no better way to explain it other than Jester David did. It's a very simple concept.




It's not that people don't get it, it's that it's a bad analogy and always has been. For one, it seems highly likely that the subjects are watching that game without paying. Since they are neither in the stands (representing the community at large) nor attempting to play the game (become professional creators) their relevance to the discussion at hand is largely moot. A more pertinent example would be if all three were trying out for the team, and the latter two people were given advantages to allow them to compete where they otherwise wouldn't be able to. That's why this analogy sucks; passively watching a game is something anyone can do, whereas careers and tasks have requirements that need to be met. Suggesting that some people should have lowered requirements or additional help not given to others in this regard has many troubling implications and I find it to be insulting to all involved.

Especially as it pertains to writing jobs, there's little reason why they couldn't devise a submission method where name/gender/ethnicity are blanked out initially, and simply just evaluate the pitches based on merit. Equality of opportunity is the goal we should reaching for, enforcing whatever the popular idea of 'equality of result' is counterproductive and is ultimately just a form of discrimination that society views more favorably.


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## epithet (Apr 8, 2017)

Abstruse said:


> ...
> For those who still don't: White straight men are represented by the tall person. ...




Oh, nice. Now we've added race and sexual orientation to the conversation. As a middle-aged Anglo-Saxon male heterosexual, I thought I had every advantage in life already, but I just realized that I should add "tall" to the list of my unfair advantages.

Come on, man.


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## Abstruse (Apr 8, 2017)

Okay, I'm at a loss. This cannot be explained most simply and clearly with Elmo doing it with flash cards and monosyllabic words.


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## epithet (Apr 8, 2017)

I think everyone understands your point perfectly well. You've done a fine job explaining yourself.


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## Abstruse (Apr 8, 2017)

epithet said:


> I think everyone understands your point perfectly well. You've done a fine job explaining yourself.



Apparently not when you're still arguing.


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## Morrus (Apr 8, 2017)

Caliban said:


> Nicely passive aggressive.




Caliban, drop the insults, please.


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## araquael (Apr 8, 2017)

Beyond the hypotheticals, the deep theory, the cleverly shaped talking points, the blunt reality is this.

Most books, films and RPGs are worked on by people who are not the most talented, skilled and hard working, but those who had _access_. They may well be all of those things, but more than anything else, they had access. You get most creative gigs, not by submitting something over and over until someone beholds your shining genius, but because you know someone who knows someone. (This is like most careers, you'll find too). 

Top directors? They went to the right film school, or their uncle was a producer, or they followed someone else from theatre. The industry itself couches the discussion in terms of "mentorship" and "reciprocity" but that's what it means. Top authors? Same deal, often - someone in their circle discovered they were writing a book and got them a meeting with an agent. That phenomenon of access is the true gatekeeper. While the RPG  creative community is relatively easy to get into, you get to create a name for yourself through that same network access. Traditionally, this network was run by a bunch of pasty dudes. Nothing wrong with that, we're all pasty-acceptant. But for a long time, that's all it was. This broadens it out. 

And not only does RPG writing not really pay very well, quite often it doesn't pay at all. Someone with a bunch of established contacts can absorb that loss a lot better. Someone from a middle class background can afford to eat a 1000 dollar loss when Guide to the Flumps Vol 2's funding budget falls through. 

The other aspect of the access-network is that if someone new wanders in, they may often be given some fiddly, risky project. Awesome Book of Orcs will be given to the established hand - he asked first, has this body of work already. Out-of-network person, whether they be a woman, or someone not-pasty may be given small bits on Awesome Book of Orcs, and maybe asked to help on Experimental Postmodern Descriptor of Obscure Elf Subclass, which five people read. Even if neither sell, the Awesome Book of Orcs team will get the plaudits: Awesome Book of Orcs is awesome. Look at the talent! Too bad it didn't sell!

On top of all that, the RPG industry is in a constant state of failure - it goes through weird peaking cycles that relies constantly on selling the same sort of thing to the same people over and over. If you want to sell to a new sort of people, you need to reach them, and getting the same set of thing from the same set of people may not actually sell that well outside the constantly shrinking mainstream. 

So the best thing you can do for a: out-of-network talent and b: your own product reach is to broaden your appeal. That means access. 

And that's not hypothetical.


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## cmad1977 (Apr 8, 2017)

araquael said:


> Beyond the hypotheticals, the deep theory, the cleverly shaped talking points, the blunt reality is this.
> 
> Most books, films and RPGs are worked on by people who are not the most talented, skilled and hard working, but those who had _access_. They may well be all of those things, but more than anything else, they had access. You get most creative gigs, not by submitting something over and over until someone beholds your shining genius, but because you know someone who knows someone. (This is like most careers, you'll find too).
> 
> ...




But what about the men? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jester David (Apr 8, 2017)

Dualazi said:


> It's not that people don't get it, it's that it's a bad analogy and always has been. For one, it seems highly likely that the subjects are watching that game without paying. Since they are neither in the stands (representing the community at large) nor attempting to play the game (become professional creators) their relevance to the discussion at hand is largely moot.



That's a pretty big stretch. You're really focusing on the irrelevant and largely cosmetic parts of the analogy to discredit it.



Dualazi said:


> A more pertinent example would be if all three were trying out for the team, and the latter two people were given advantages to allow them to compete where they otherwise wouldn't be able to. That's why this analogy sucks; passively watching a game is something anyone can do, whereas careers and tasks have requirements that need to be met. Suggesting that some people should have lowered requirements or additional help not given to others in this regard has many troubling implications and I find it to be insulting to all involved.



Yes. 
However, certain people applying for careers are societal given said advantage. They start with an advantage. While other start with a bias and outright disadvantage. 



Dualazi said:


> Especially as it pertains to writing jobs, there's little reason why they couldn't devise a submission method where name/gender/ethnicity are blanked out initially, and simply just evaluate the pitches based on merit.



Again, that looks good on paper. 
In practice, far fewer women and non-binary people will even apply because they're so used to be excluded and ignored that many will thing "why bother?" 
In practice, with so very, very many male submissions the odds of picking a woman are reduced. 

Also, editors don't just want the same thing by the same people. It's like picking a hockey team. You don't just want six people who are all "the talent" and great at handling a puck. Because they can't take a hit or fill a goal. But you also don't just want six goons. You need a mix. It's not *really* discriminating against a talented hockey player to pick a goon over him, you're just choosing what is needed to round out the team.
(Or forming a D&D party. Five fighters or five rogues aren't going to do very well. You need that wizard and cleric to round things out.)

When compiling a book you want a nice mix of types of stories but also types of author. Different authors have a different voice. The publishers (and more likely the editor) has an idea of what they want and has decided more female authors are needed to round out the anthology. That they want to encourage more women into gaming.



Dualazi said:


> Equality of opportunity is the goal we should reaching for, enforcing whatever the popular idea of 'equality of result' is counterproductive and is ultimately just a form of discrimination that society views more favorably.



But you can;'t get equality of opportunity by doing nothing. It doesn't happen automatically. The civil rights movement was fifty years ago and equality still hasn't happened. 

I'm not one for binary "with us or against us" statements, but you either work towards _equity_ or you're condoning inequality.


Is it "ultimately just a form of discrimination that society views more favorably"? YES! Absolutely.
I said so already. It's evil but it's the lesser of the two evils. 

Just like not showing graphic violence on television at 8am is a form of censorship and a violation of free speech, but it's one we all accept. Just like you can't have sex in public is a violation of your pursuit of happiness and freedom of expression, but we're all okay with that being illegal. And just like preferred parking lot spaces discriminate against abled bodied people, potentially making them unable to park. 
The world is full of compromises. Limitations on freedoms because the alternative is legal anarchy.

But when you protest against "discrimination" against males it's pretty much the same thing as protesting against disabled people having their own parking spots.


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## Jester David (Apr 8, 2017)

Did anyone post to Green Ronin's response: 
https://greenronin.com/lostcitadel/2017/04/04/the-lost-citadel-talent-search/


_Greetings, fans of dark fantasy.

As some of you may have heard, yesterday Green Ronin announced that a new talent search will be going live in a couple weeks. Rather than tease a bit from the Lost Citadel Roleplaying project or its setting, as usual for this blog, I’d like to take this chance to talk a bit about that outreach effort.

Nicole (Lindroos, of GR) and I discussed the whys and wherefores of the concept at length before we decided to go ahead with it. We don’t enjoy the idea of exclusion, and we know that feeling excluded from things can hurt, but that is exactly in part why we are doing this talent search.

The tabletop gaming world has come a long way from its humble origins, and this includes the participation of people who identify as women. Nicole and I are proud to have been a part of that development, but we also know that there’s more that we and others can do. History shows us that women often feel apprehensive about trying to make their way in arenas that are traditionally male-dominated, even when the talent and willingness to contribute are there, and being proactive about including them is one of the best ways to address that concern.

And for clarity’s sake: Tabletop gaming is one of those largely male-dominated arenas.

As a concept, the Lost Citadel has been and will continue to be designed in an expressly women-inclusive way. One of the core team, Jaym Gates, is a woman, and half the contributors to the table of contents of the first anthology (Tales of the Lost Citadel) were women. The setting/property does not shy away from telling stories by women, about women, or for women, even as it endeavors to provide a context for telling stories that are gender-neutral. To us, that is genuine inclusivity, which is part of why non-binary-identifiying folks are welcome to submit to this talent search, too.

Both men and women were on that first anthology, and the same will be true of the LCRPG, but Nicole and I observed that if there was ever a situation in which it was clearly the right thing to do to reach out to women specifically, to let them know that there’s a place where their efforts and ideas aren’t just welcome but desired, that situation could involve the Lost Citadel.

Specific guidelines on submissions will follow in a separate announcement, but we thank everyone for their interest and for recognizing the positive effect that efforts like this can have._​


----------



## Hussar (Apr 8, 2017)

And, there is the somewhat more cynical take on all of this as well.  It's marketing.  It's a way to differentiate GR's product from the hundred other products that are on the shelves that, at the end of the day, aren't all that different.  But, by doing this, they are separating their product from the pack.

Now, just because it might help their bottom line doesn't take away from their efforts.  Of course, it could blow up in their faces and the crowd that feels excluded might damage sales.  That's true.  That's also the risk you always take in marketing anything.


----------



## Abstruse (Apr 8, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Did anyone post to Green Ronin's response:
> https://greenronin.com/lostcitadel/2017/04/04/the-lost-citadel-talent-search/



That was the post that made me Part of the Problem ^_^;; The link in the original draft of the article linked to that post from Chris Pramas, but I decided to change it to the post from Nicole Lindroos about her experience at DICE and didn't double-check the byline and correct it. So I attributed the words of a woman to the male in the company. So the haphazard edits marked in the column are because Nicole herself pointed out my mistake to me on Facebook and I was in a rush to fix it since it'd already been up for about a day at that point. I was even kind of a jerk about it to her in a "pass the buck" way when I blamed Green Ronin's site for crediting Chris. It wasn't until I checked my original notes I realized where I'd messed up.

So I would like to once again apologize to Nicole Lindroos. I screwed up and I'm sorry.


----------



## Abstruse (Apr 8, 2017)

Hussar said:


> And, there is the somewhat more cynical take on all of this as well. It's marketing. It's a way to differentiate GR's product from the hundred other products that are on the shelves that, at the end of the day, aren't all that different. But, by doing this, they are separating their product from the pack.
> 
> Now, just because it might help their bottom line doesn't take away from their efforts. Of course, it could blow up in their faces and the crowd that feels excluded might damage sales. That's true. That's also the risk you always take in marketing anything.



Trust me, it's not just marketing. I've known Chris, Ari, and Jaym for a while and I've interacted with pretty much everyone involved with Lost Citadel at some point. Making gaming and publishing more inclusive is a big goal of everyone involved in general, not just for this specific project.


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## Mouseferatu (Apr 8, 2017)

First, straight from Nicole Lindroos, and yes, linked with permission:

https://www.facebook.com/nikchick/posts/10158587982730500

Second, I, myself, am not an employee of Green Ronin, but I am co-creator of the Lost Citadel property. I 100% support everything CA and Nicole are doing with this.

Yes, there's an imbalance in the industry. Yes, this contest is a single step in the effort toward correcting that. No, there will not be a men-only equivalent; that very concept misses the entire point. (And yes, the creative team on both the anthology and the game is a solid mix of men and women. This talent search is to find someone to fill _one seat _on the RPG team.)

If people agree with the goals and/or means, great. Glad to hear it. If people don't care, fine. Buy the product or not, on its merits and your preferences.

People who are truly, deeply upset that Green Ronin would dare to reach out to under-represented demographics on the creative side of our industry? Well, look, as I said, I'm not an employee of GR. I'm not making an official statement on their behalf.

But I, and many others involved, believe what we believe. We do what we feel is right. Our beliefs are going to impact not just how we staff and create the property, but the property itself. If that turns you off, so be it.


----------



## Rygar (Apr 8, 2017)

Jester David said:


> That's a pretty big stretch. You're really focusing on the irrelevant and largely cosmetic parts of the analogy to discredit it.
> 
> 
> Yes.
> ...




Ok, I have to jump in at this point.

You really need to quit ignoring the very obvious fact that women were instrumental to birthing this industry.  I find it *incredibly* offensive that you belittle the work of Margaret Weiss and Laura Hickman among others with your narrative that women have been barred from doing anything in this industry.  Never mind all of the women working in the genre like Anne Mccafferty.  Drop the political narrative and quit belittling the achievements of women.

Green Ronin is gone.  They've just based their future on a political statement and in doing so, just tossed out the majority of their market.  Anyone who is conservative is now gone, most males are gone, anyone who is deeply religious is now gone.  For what?  A meaningless political statement.  Women were already key to the creation of the industry. There has never been a module whose cover included "Author is gay!" or "Author is transsexual!" on it, so not a single customer has ever been aware of the sexual orientation of the author and no customer ever will be.

So they fragmented their customer base to make a completely meaningless political statement and now they have to survive on a fraction of the sales they used to have.  Considering that they're an extremely niche producer in a small market, they have perhaps months at best left to them.


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## Abstruse (Apr 8, 2017)

Mouseferatu said:


> First, straight from Nicole Lindroos, and yes, linked with permission:
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/nikchick/posts/10158587982730500
> 
> ...



Well said.

And yes, I'm the person referred to in the post from Nicole. Yes, I'm in favor of the goal of more diversity in gaming and what Green Ronin is doing. Yes, my intentions were good and honest. Yes, I screwed up.


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## Abstruse (Apr 8, 2017)

Rygar said:


> Green Ronin is gone.



Yes, I'm sure with licensed content like Dragon Age, A Song of Ice and Fire, and DC Adventures, they are just doing horribly. And the forthcoming Matt Mercer penned Exandria sourcebook from Critical Role that has been demanded for years for a show with tens of thousands of live viewers and hundreds of thousands of archive viewers, and Sentinels of Earth Prime the sequel game to Sentinels of the Multiverse which is one of the best-selling card games of recent years, are both going to horribly flop. And their original properties like Icons, Mutants & Masterminds, Fantasy AGE, Freeport, plus their licensed work with Wizards of the Coast on official Dungeons & Dragons products? Yeah, they're TOTALLY out of business because of the people mad because they want to help women with their cooties get into game writing.

Also, everyone seems so concerned with the business ethics and legality of this talent search...but not one comment has been made about the fact that I, a gaming journalist, promoted not one but two Kickstarters from companies I have financial ties to...odd that, isn't it?


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## Xethreau (Apr 8, 2017)

Caliban said:


> Just in case it wasn't clear - I was being very sarcastic.





*feels foolish*
I THOUGHT I remembered you fending off the trolls!


----------



## Nagol (Apr 8, 2017)

Abstruse said:


> Yes, I'm sure with licensed content like Dragon Age, A Song of Ice and Fire, and DC Adventures, they are just doing horribly. And the forthcoming Matt Mercer penned Exandria sourcebook from Critical Role that has been demanded for years for a show with tens of thousands of live viewers and hundreds of thousands of archive viewers, and Sentinels of Earth Prime the sequel game to Sentinels of the Multiverse which is one of the best-selling card games of recent years, are both going to horribly flop. And their original properties like Icons, Mutants & Masterminds, Fantasy AGE, Freeport, plus their licensed work with Wizards of the Coast on official Dungeons & Dragons products? Yeah, they're TOTALLY out of business because of the people mad because they want to help women with their cooties get into game writing.
> 
> Also, everyone seems so concerned with the business ethics and legality of this talent search...but not one comment has been made about the fact that I, a gaming journalist, promoted not one but two Kickstarters from companies I have financial ties to...odd that, isn't it?




Where is your disclosure?  I missed it in the article.


----------



## Abstruse (Apr 8, 2017)

Nagol said:


> Where is your disclosure? I missed it in the article.



In the article.


----------



## Nagol (Apr 8, 2017)

Abstruse said:


> In the article.




I found them.  The ENWorld one  is an expected conflict since this is the ENWorld site.  The other I missed because I wasn't interested and it is tertiary conflict anyway.


----------



## Jester David (Apr 8, 2017)

Rygar said:


> You really need to quit ignoring the very obvious fact that women were instrumental to birthing this industry.  I find it *incredibly* offensive that you belittle the work of Margaret Weiss and Laura Hickman among others with your narrative that women have been barred from doing anything in this industry.



????
That's a MASSIVE logical leap. Saying I think it'd be a good idea for there to be *more* women in the industry in no way shape or form says or even implies that I do not appreciate the works of the few women who were around at the start of the industry, nor does it trivialise the number of women currently in the industry.

I got into gaming because of Dragonlance books. They were hugely influential to me. 



Rygar said:


> Never mind all of the women working in the genre like Anne Mccafferty.  Drop the political narrative and quit belittling the achievements of women.



I'm not belittling their achievement. Remotely. 



Rygar said:


> Green Ronin is gone.  They've just based their future on a political statement and in doing so, just tossed out the majority of their market.  Anyone who is conservative is now gone, most males are gone, anyone who is deeply religious is now gone.



Hahahahahahah.
Just because someone is Conservative, doesn't mean they're misogynist. People can be deeply religious _and_ feminist. And there are a large number of males who support this. 
Yeah, no, this is not going to affect Green Ronin in the slightest.



Rygar said:


> For what?  A meaningless political statement.



Equity is never meaningless. Fair representation is never meaningless. 
And it's far from political. No political party supports female inequality. That's not a platform. 
People are making it political. 



Rygar said:


> Women were already key to the creation of the industry. There has never been a module whose cover included "Author is gay!" or "Author is transsexual!" on it, so not a single customer has ever been aware of the sexual orientation of the author and no customer ever will be.



Funny thing, gay writers will write gay characters. Or are more likely to work in elements of the homosexual experience into their writing. Because, surprise, people write what they know. And they're likely to present it in a positive light.
You often can get an inkling of the author's orientation or values very easily. 



Rygar said:


> So they fragmented their customer base to make a completely meaningless political statement and now they have to survive on a fraction of the sales they used to have.  Considering that they're an extremely niche producer in a small market, they have perhaps months at best left to them.



Green Ronin, like Wizards of the Coast and Paizo, have a strong reputation as progressive companies that hire and employ people of all sexes, races, and creeds. Anyone fragmented away from Green Ronin by this move likely wasn't a Green Ronin fan to begin with or wasn't paying attention.


----------



## Caliban (Apr 8, 2017)

Rygar said:


> Ok, I have to jump in at this point.




Do you?  Is it really a "have to", or more of a "want to"?   



> You really need to quit ignoring the very obvious fact that women were instrumental to birthing this industry.  I find it *incredibly* offensive that you belittle the work of Margaret Weiss and Laura Hickman among others with your narrative that women have been barred from doing anything in this industry.




I'm incredibly offended at your lack of reading comprehension.  (Whee! We're like twins! Offended over stupid stuff!)   They said "far fewer" not "barred".  Not at all the same thing.  



> Never mind all of the women working in the genre like Anne Mccafferty.  Drop the political narrative and quit belittling the achievements of women.




No one said there aren't women in gaming.   They said they are "under represented".  As in "far fewer", or a "minority".   It only takes a tiny amount of research to see that this is true.   

Having a talent search specifically to find a non-male author doesn't belittle or threaten anyone who isn't actively looking for a reason to be offended.



> Green Ronin is gone.




And here is where you really go off the deep end.  I think you are making the mistake of thinking that you actually represent the majority of the male gamers out there.   I really don't think you do, being one myself.  Male gamers are the largest demographic by far, but there is still a lot of diversity within that very broad category.  And a lot of us (possibly most of us) aren't threatened  by having more women, gay, or transgendered individuals join the player base or by having more content that reflects their ideas and viewpoints.  More diverse content is good, it means more stuff for us to try out. And just maybe we'll like some of the new stuff more than the old stuff.  You never know.


----------



## epithet (Apr 8, 2017)

Abstruse said:


> Apparently not when you're still arguing.




Amigo, I was never arguing. I've been discussing the issue, but I have no interest in persuading anyone or "winning" anything in the thread.


----------



## Abstruse (Apr 8, 2017)

epithet said:


> Amigo, I was never arguing. I've been discussing the issue, but I have no interest in persuading anyone or "winning" anything in the thread.



Then why comment at all?

This image is completely unrelated, don't mind it.View attachment 83178​


----------



## epithet (Apr 8, 2017)

Rygar said:


> ...
> Green Ronin is gone.  They've just based their future on a political statement and in doing so, just tossed out the majority of their market.  Anyone who is conservative is now gone, most males are gone, anyone who is deeply religious is now gone.  For what?  A meaningless political statement.  Women were already key to the creation of the industry. There has never been a module whose cover included "Author is gay!" or "Author is transsexual!" on it, so not a single customer has ever been aware of the sexual orientation of the author and no customer ever will be.
> ...



Your last sentence there refutes your foregoing statements. I doubt that a large slice of the tabletop RPG demographic is either reactionary in their politics or strongly motivated by sincere zealotry, but even if they were there would be nothing on a Green Ronin product to offend their delicate sensibilities. As for males, well... most of us can't be bothered to give a damn most of the time any way.

As long as Green Ronin produces products with interesting stories, well realized NPCs, appealing art, and good cartography, they will sell those products. People will buy based on production value, not politics, because as you point out the politics aren't on the package.

Furthermore, in the current political climate in the US, I suspect an earnest declaration of progressive values would actually win more customers than it cost them.


----------



## epithet (Apr 8, 2017)

Abstruse said:


> Then why comment at all?
> ...



Because I had an opinion relevant to an ongoing conversation in this thread, and as a participating member of the site I am expressly invited to join these conversations provided I do so within the rules for posting here. So I did.

If you want to have an argument, telling me to keep my opinion to myself might be a way to start one.


----------



## epithet (Apr 8, 2017)

Abstruse said:


> ...
> Also, everyone seems so concerned with the business ethics and legality of this talent search...




For what it's worth, although I am not licensed in Washington I am, in fact, a lawyer. I am not at all concerned with the legality of this talent search.


----------



## Abstruse (Apr 8, 2017)

epithet said:


> Because I had an opinion relevant to an ongoing conversation in this thread, and as a participating member of the site I am expressly invited to join these conversations provided I do so within the rules for posting here. So I did.
> 
> If you want to have an argument, telling me to keep my opinion to myself might be a way to start one.



If your opinions are sexist and/or transphobic, I would like to say yes, please keep them to yourself.


----------



## epithet (Apr 8, 2017)

Caliban said:


> ...  Male gamers are the largest demographic by far, but there is still a lot of diversity within that very broad category.  And a lot of us (possibly most of us) aren't threatened  by having more women, gay, or transgendered individuals join the player base or by having more content that reflects their ideas and viewpoints.  More diverse content is good, it means more stuff for us to try out. And just maybe we'll like some of the new stuff more than the old stuff.  You never know.



I don't disagree with you, but I think there might be an unfortunate trend of RPG publishers toning down the sex appeal of their products' cover and interior art because they think (mistakenly) that the eye candy discourages female consumers. I'm sure adding some beefcake would help, but all you have to do is scan the covers of a few romance novels and women's magazines to realize that frumping up your character art isn't going to win you the female demographic.


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## Abstruse (Apr 8, 2017)

Only in 2017 can the news front page of a tabletop RPG site have two stories and "Game Company Launches Talent Search for Female and Genderqueer Writers" gets more comments than "New Dungeons & Dragons Movie".


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## epithet (Apr 8, 2017)

Abstruse said:


> If your opinions are sexist and/or transphobic, I would like to say yes, please keep them to yourself.




But they aren't. If you want to accuse me of something, don't mince words--come right out and say it.


----------



## epithet (Apr 8, 2017)

Abstruse said:


> Only in 2017 can the news front page of a tabletop RPG site have two stories and "Game Company Launches Talent Search for Female and Genderqueer Writers" gets more comments than "New Dungeons & Dragons Movie".




Not enough info on the movie yet, and frankly I think many of us are afraid to get our hopes up.


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## Caliban (Apr 8, 2017)

epithet said:


> I don't disagree with you, but I think there might be an unfortunate trend of RPG publishers toning down the sex appeal of their products' cover and interior art because they think (mistakenly) that the eye candy discourages female consumers. I'm sure adding some beefcake would help, but all you have to do is scan the covers of a few romance novels and women's magazines to realize that frumping up your character art isn't going to win you the female demographic.




Yeah, I don't really purchase my gaming products based on the cheesecake on the cover.  I'm much more concerned about game mechanics and world lore.  Maybe I'm the exception though.


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## epithet (Apr 9, 2017)

Caliban said:


> Yeah, I don't really purchase my gaming products based on the cheesecake on the cover.  I'm much more concerned about game mechanics and world lore.  Maybe I'm the exception though.




No, I think most of us buy for the content. I just appreciate the cheesecake, and I'll admit the art on the cover can most effectively draw my attention to the content within.


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## Jester David (Apr 9, 2017)

epithet said:


> I don't disagree with you, but I think there might be an unfortunate trend of RPG publishers toning down the sex appeal of their products' cover and interior art because they think (mistakenly) that the eye candy discourages female consumers.



It certainly doesn't help... 
Female objectification really upsets a lot of people.



epithet said:


> I'm sure adding some beefcake would help, but all you have to do is scan the covers of a few romance novels and women's magazines to realize that frumping up your character art isn't going to win you the female demographic.



Sex sells a lot of things but I'm not sure RPG books are one of them. I can't think of many D&D or RPG books that have really tried to market themselves based on sex appeal. I don't think anyone has ever decided to buy a D&D or other RPG product because the cover was hot.
Especially after the existence of the Internet. The succubus and nymph pictures were hot stuff in the 1980s but I think people today *might* have other sources of erotic images. 

Also... I'm not sure women have ever purchased products because of beefcake in the history of time. Otherwise, _Playgirl_ would have sold a lot more copies and _Sports Illustrated_ (or _Cosmo_ would have a male swimsuit issue. 
Romance covers are the way they are more out of tradition than an actual need. After all, some of the best selling "romance" books of all time are _Twilight_, _50 Shades of Grey_, and _Outlander_, which all have a distinct lack of cover beefcake.


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## Jester David (Apr 9, 2017)

Abstruse said:


> Only in 2017 can the news front page of a tabletop RPG site have two stories and "Game Company Launches Talent Search for Female and Genderqueer Writers" gets more comments than "New Dungeons & Dragons Movie".




After how bad the last three movies are, I don't think anyone is expecting much. And sooooo very many movies get planned, scripted, and actors associated and then never make it into the filming phase. Until it actually starts production, most people aren't going to get their hopes up.


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## RedPenOfDoom (Apr 9, 2017)

Rygar said:


> I find it *incredibly* offensive that you belittle the work of Margaret Weiss



Weis*



Rygar said:


> and Laura Hickman among others with your narrative that women have been barred from doing anything in this industry.  Never mind all of the women working in the genre like Anne Mccafferty.



McCaffrey*

If you're going to make a point about how influential women's voices have been, do the minimal research necessary to spell their names correctly. It shows respect.

Also, Anne McCaffrey isn't working in this or any other genre, having been dead for five years.


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## epithet (Apr 9, 2017)

Jester David said:


> ... I'm not sure women have ever purchased products because of beefcake in the history of time. ...




Back when you bought music on physical media, my mother's collection was largely inspired by how attractive she found the guy on the disc cover. She has some horrible music. My wife used to insist that we go to every single movie Leonardo DiCaprio was in, until finally one (can't remember which, they all blur together) was so bad she reconsidered that policy. 

Sex sells really well, to men and to women. One of the reasons we really need women involved in publishing, though, is that we men are typically really, really bad at predicting what women will find sexy.


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## Jester David (Apr 9, 2017)

epithet said:


> Back when you bought music on physical media, my mother's collection was largely inspired by how attractive she found the guy on the disc cover. She has some horrible music. My wife used to insist that we go to every single movie Leonardo DiCaprio was in, until finally one (can't remember which, they all blur together) was so bad she reconsidered that policy.



Buts is Leonardo DiCaprio is what you would consider "beefcake"? Is that the kind of male image that you want on the PHB? Leo and a hot warrior woman in a chainmail bikini?



epithet said:


> Sex sells really well, to men and to women. One of the reasons we really need women involved in publishing, though, is that we men are typically really, really bad at predicting what women will find sexy.



Sex is one way of selling. But it's not the *only* way, and certainly not everything needs to be sexy to sell. 

And when said industry is really, really trying to expand its demographics, it really doesn't need to risk pushing anyone away for cheap titillation.


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## IanWatson (Apr 9, 2017)

Neatly sidestepping the rest of the discussion for the moment:



Abstruse said:


> So some of you may be wondering where Onyx Path is in all this. They’re still around, but they’re not involved with this new edition of the game. They are, however, still creating new material for World of Darkness. But not for the new edition. Onyx Path still holds the license for the Chronicles of Darkness (which is the official name of what was called the New World of Darkness titles: Vampire: The Requiem, Werewolf: The Forsaken, etc.) and they hold the license for the 20th Anniversary editions of all the World of Darkness (the official name for Old World of Darkness titles: Vampire: The Masquerade, Werewolf: The Apocalypse, etc.). So Onyx Path is still publishing new material for both of these lines, but are NOT publishing material for the new 5th Edition of Vampire: The Masquerade.




This is something I see often repeated, but it's not entirely accurate. Our World of Darkness license is not limited to the 20th Anniversary material, although that's obviously our focus at the moment. We have, for example, released four Convention Books for Mage: The Ascension's Revised Edition, Dark Ages: Darkening Sky for 2002's Dark Ages line, as well as Werewolf, Mage, and Demon Translation Guides which all target the Revised-era versions of those game lines.

Our license includes the World of Darkness, without edition limits. White Wolf has, however, decided to do the 5th edition rulebook in-house. While we aren't working on the 5e core rulebook, that doesn't exclude us from working on other books: Rich commented on the latest Monday Meeting Notes blog that we're still planning to pitch ideas for V5, for example.


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## Abstruse (Apr 9, 2017)

IanWatson said:


> Neatly sidestepping the rest of the discussion for the moment:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for the clarification. It's something that isn't talked about openly a lot unless there's a big definitive announcement, like when the rights are acquired to a big property and a new line is announced, or a license is lost and products are going out of print (and even that's rarely announced so much as it's pieced together by noticing when something's pulled from websites/Drive Thru).


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## Abstruse (Apr 9, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Sex is one way of selling. But it's not the *only* way, and certainly not everything needs to be sexy to sell.
> 
> And when said industry is really, really trying to expand its demographics, it really doesn't need to risk pushing anyone away for cheap titillation.



Sex _doesn't _sell. Sex attracts attention but distracts from whatever the product is because men are looking at the pretty lady and not the product logo, while women are looking away entirely from the body-shaming image. Goes the same way for women and beefcake shots. And it crosses sexual orientation as well, so women who are attracted to women will be similarly distracted from whatever the product is advertising.

Also, what women find physically attractive and what men self-identify as a power fantasy aren't the same thing typically.

View attachment 83189
Source​


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## Dualazi (Apr 9, 2017)

Jester David said:


> That's a pretty big stretch. You're really focusing on the irrelevant and largely cosmetic parts of the analogy to discredit it.




Because it’s a bad analogy. It only superficially works when it is related to involvement with society as a whole, and falls apart if it gets any narrower than that.




Jester David said:


> However, certain people applying for careers are societal given said advantage. They start with an advantage. While other start with a bias and outright disadvantage.




This is really something that has to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. In this instance I can see no reason why a name/race/gender screen wouldn’t remove the majority of perceived hurdles.




Jester David said:


> In practice, far fewer women and non-binary people will even apply because they're so used to be excluded and ignored that many will thing "why bother?"
> In practice, with so very, very many male submissions the odds of picking a woman are reduced.




Frankly, if the assumed blind auditions are in place, the failure to apply because of those thoughts are squarely the women’s own problem and not society’s. The blind audition practice works, you can read about it here http://gap.hks.harvard.edu/orchestrating-impartiality-impact-“blind”-auditions-female-musicians , and they didn’t have to say that male applicants weren’t needed during. They simply let the best players come forth uninhibited by prior bias.



Jester David said:


> Also, editors don't just want the same thing by the same people. It's like picking a hockey team. You don't just want six people who are all "the talent" and great at handling a puck. Because they can't take a hit or fill a goal. But you also don't just want six goons. You need a mix. It's not *really* discriminating against a talented hockey player to pick a goon over him, you're just choosing what is needed to round out the team.




This is very true. Yet nothing says that the excluded men couldn’t do it as well as better. Basically the question is what, in particular, does this non-male viewpoint add to the product that could not be equally well met by an equally talented male author? It seems to me that this smacks dangerously close to saying that you couldn’t write a compelling gay character without being gay yourself, which is ridiculous.



Jester David said:


> When compiling a book you want a nice mix of types of stories but also types of author. Different authors have a different voice. The publishers (and more likely the editor) has an idea of what they want and has decided more female authors are needed to round out the anthology. That they want to encourage more women into gaming.




Sure. James Clavell and J.K. Rowling are two different beasts for two different demographics, but I’m not sure how much that relates to their gender specifically. Sorry to keep hammering it home but the above question stands, unless you think that James Clavell, Stephen King, and Lemony Snicket all have the same ‘voice’ due to being men, then it beggars the question of what specifically requires a female writer.




Jester David said:


> Is it "ultimately just a form of discrimination that society views more favorably"? YES! Absolutely.
> I said so already. It's evil but it's the lesser of the two evils.




I disagree. The blind auditions example proves that we can find methods to foster diversity growth without resorting to simply barring otherwise acceptable applicants based on factors beyond their control.



Jester David said:


> But when you protest against "discrimination" against males it's pretty much the same thing as protesting against disabled people having their own parking spots.




It is not. The parking spot assures access to necessary facilities or reasonable measures ensuring that they can interact with their place of employment. My continued opposition would be more akin to hiring a sub-par programmer because he is handicapped over more talented but able bodied one.

I’d like to thank you for your civility though. While we may not agree on the issue at least the exchange has been more amicable here than on other sites I frequent.



Abstruse said:


> Sex _doesn't _sell. Sex attracts attention but distracts from whatever the product is because men are looking at the pretty lady and not the product logo, while women are looking away entirely from the body-shaming image. Goes the same way for women and beefcake shots. And it crosses sexual orientation as well, so women who are attracted to women will be similarly distracted from whatever the product is advertising.
> 
> Also, what women find physically attractive and what men self-identify as a power fantasy aren't the same thing typically.
> 
> ...




I don’t even know where to start with this really, the idea that sex doesn’t sell is completely insane on its face. This is true for women more than ever in this day and age, do you really think that women flocked to Robert Pattinson, Leonardo Dicaprio, or Chris Hemsworth because of their acting acumen, or because they’re physically attractive? Do you think that 50 shades would have been as well received if the assertive male billionaire was a pudgy bald 65 year old?

Also, there are a not-insignificant number of women who like playing as or imagining themselves as the sexy bombshells. The idea that every woman is repulsed by an attractive female, scantily clad or no, is just as silly as assuming that every dude wants to be the incredible hulk.

Lastly, please drop the straw-manning. If men were uncomfortable with effeminate males to that degree then industries like recent rise in anime consumption would never have occurred. Likewise, it’s not hard to dig up counter-evidence with idle google searches:

View attachment 83191


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## Jester David (Apr 9, 2017)

Dualazi said:


> This is really something that has to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. In this instance I can see no reason why a name/race/gender screen wouldn’t remove the majority of perceived hurdles.



"I don't see why a screen wouldn't remove hurdles, therefore no hurdles must exist."



Dualazi said:


> It is not. The parking spot assures access to necessary facilities or reasonable measures ensuring that they can interact with their place of employment. My continued opposition would be more akin to hiring a sub-par programmer because he is handicapped over more talented but able bodied one.



Which implies that you believe this talent search will result in a subpar writer.


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## Abstruse (Apr 9, 2017)

Dualazi said:


> Lastly, please drop the straw-manning. If men were uncomfortable with effeminate males to that degree then industries like recent rise in anime consumption would never have occurred. Likewise, it’s not hard to dig up counter-evidence with idle google searches:
> 
> View attachment 83191



Cool story, bro. The fiction publishing industry, even romance novels, is still dominated by men.


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## Hussar (Apr 9, 2017)

Abstruse said:


> Trust me, it's not just marketing. I've known Chris, Ari, and Jaym for a while and I've interacted with pretty much everyone involved with Lost Citadel at some point. Making gaming and publishing more inclusive is a big goal of everyone involved in general, not just for this specific project.




Oh, totally agree.  I probably made my point too strongly, as usual.


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## Hussar (Apr 9, 2017)

Rygar said:


> /snip
> 
> Laura Hickman /snip




Umm, it's TRACY Hickman, and he's a dude.  But, you knew that right.


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## Dualazi (Apr 9, 2017)

Jester David said:


> "I don't see why a screen wouldn't remove hurdles, therefore no hurdles must exist."




Try again. I’m saying the blind audition would remove any logical hurdles without necessitating the removal of certain categories of applicants. 



Jester David said:


> Which implies that you believe this talent search will result in a subpar writer.




I have no way of conclusively knowing this any more than you do. That said, I do believe it increases the chances of receiving a sub-par piece of work because of arbitrary and unnecessary restrictions on the applicant pool.

That’s why I find this initiative stupid. It’s a poor moral choice (sexism against men is still sexism) and it’s a bad choice pragmatically, since they are simply walling off talent from coming forward.



Abstruse said:


> Cool story, bro. The fiction publishing industry, even romance novels, is still dominated by men.




It is a cool story. Almost as cool as the fact that author demographics had nothing to do with me shooting down your tiresome argument that sex doesn’t sell to women and that all muscle-bound men are a male power fantasy.


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## schnee (Apr 9, 2017)

Abstruse said:


> Cool story, bro. The fiction publishing industry, even romance novels, is still dominated by men.




...who make more money finding out what women want, giving it to them, and have it down to a science. You think men decide these covers because it's what they want?!? Learn publishing.

Really though, patriarchy is a thing, and it is bad, but your absurd thinking that every single thing can be explained by a single reductionist thought doesn't persuade anyone. I bet it feels good to you though.


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## mythago (Apr 9, 2017)

Dualazi said:


> It’s a poor moral choice (sexism against men is still sexism)




I missed the part where GR said that they're limiting this to female authors because they think men are worse at writing or that men are jerks? Because _that_ sure would be sexism against men. But I'm not following how wanting to give an opportunity to an underrepresented and often marginalized group of people is automagically bigotry.


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## Dualazi (Apr 9, 2017)

mythago said:


> I missed the part where GR said that they're limiting this to female authors because they think men are worse at writing or that men are jerks? Because _that_ sure would be sexism against men. But I'm not following how wanting to give an opportunity to an underrepresented and often marginalized group of people is automagically bigotry.




It's not so much that they think men are worse that they aren't interested in finding out. In my discussions with Jester I pointed out a blind audition format could be completely fair to any applicant and would likewise ensure the company and consumers get the best product possible. GR has instead essentially said that they're not interested in merely offering an opportunity for women to be involved in the project, but are instead saying that they will force female involvement whether or not it would be the optimal decision. The only way said involvement wouldn't be forced is if zero women apply and they have to open it back up to the general public. Furthermore, Mouseferatu's post linking to one of the co-creator's facebook pages confirms that GR will not be doing a male-only casting call as well, which pretty much decisively proves that they care more about the gender of the worker than the quality of the work. If you have two competing options and you pick based on the gender of the creator as opposed to any merits of the options in question then yeah, that's a sexist call no matter who is on the receiving end.


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## mythago (Apr 9, 2017)

Dualazi said:


> It's not so much that they think men are worse that they aren't interested in finding out. In my discussions with Jester I pointed out a blind audition format could be completely fair to any applicant and would likewise ensure the company and consumers get the best product possible. GR has instead essentially said that they're not interested in merely offering an opportunity for women to be involved in the project, but are instead saying that they will force female involvement whether or not it would be the optimal decision. The only way said involvement wouldn't be forced is if zero women apply and they have to open it back up to the general public. Furthermore, Mouseferatu's post linking to one of the co-creator's facebook pages confirms that GR will not be doing a male-only casting call as well, which pretty much decisively proves that they care more about the gender of the worker than the quality of the work. If you have two competing options and you pick based on the gender of the creator as opposed to any merits of the options in question then yeah, that's a sexist call no matter who is on the receiving end.




"Forced female involvement" is a very odd way to phrase it. I don't think they're going out press-ganging female game designers. 

Blind audition format is not how any game company does business. Game companies work with writers they've worked with before; they work with big-name writers whose byline will attract attention and money; they work with people whose style they like better or who they know to be reliable. Is any of that unfair? Are they risking inferior product because they're not opening a blind casting call to all and sundry?


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## Dualazi (Apr 9, 2017)

mythago said:


> "Forced female involvement" is a very odd way to phrase it. I don't think they're going out press-ganging female game designers.
> 
> Blind audition format is not how any game company does business. Game companies work with writers they've worked with before; they work with big-name writers whose byline will attract attention and money; they work with people whose style they like better or who they know to be reliable. Is any of that unfair? Are they risking inferior product because they're not opening a blind casting call to all and sundry?




Yeah, my phrasing could use work, but they're still ultimately boiling it down to "female or bust". It's forced in the sense that I think there are very few industries that see 100% of either gender reliably in people entering the workforce, and GR is forcing that scenario to occur here.

Those issues you outlined aren't unfair because in many cases they're value adds that elevate their product. A big name writer is more valuable to the company specifically because he/she brings in more sales, and to avoid that when it's reasonable to pursue wouldn't be smart. Same thing for people you know are reliable, which is definitely a sadly rare quality in a lot of places. All I ultimately care about is that merit takes center stage.

None of those scenarios really apply here though, because this is explicitly looking for new talent. They've already either decided they don't want to pursue the things you listed or don't have the means to do so, and then have arbitrarily excluded a segment of equally unknown creators based on their gender. Fighting sexism with more sexism doesn't really sit well with me, and that's exactly what I see occurring here. If they had gone with the blind audition option, would we be seeing this same furor? If they had been more explicit in what the subject matter would entail, would that not have given us more insight into the validity of necessitating a specifically female viewpoint?

From the press releases they've issued and the facebook post linked up thread, it seems to me that GR considers it a moral imperative to get more women into the hobby, regardless of the means or the effect on the product.

"...Nicole and I observed that if there was ever a situation in which it was clearly the right thing to do to reach out to women specifically, to let them know that there’s a place where their efforts and ideas aren’t just welcome but desired, that situation could involve the Lost Citadel."

- Follow up press release by Green Ronin, found here https://greenronin.com/lostcitadel/2017/04/04/the-lost-citadel-talent-search/

The fact that they consider this the "right thing to do" is telling on that note, and I fundamentally disagree with that assertion. If there are biases in place that have hindered women getting into those positions either industry wide or on a per-company basis, those can be addressed by things like the blind audition drum I keep banging, especially when specifically scouting new talent. Adding women in and of itself is not a morally correct decision on its own, though.


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## Mouseferatu (Apr 9, 2017)

(Again, I must state in advance that I am speaking for myself, not for Green Ronin or any other developer of Lost Citadel in any capacity.)

It's not a question of whether a woman can write a female character better than a man, or whether a trans writer can write a trans character better than a cis writer can. I mean, odds are that, all else being equal, they could, but that's not universally true--and it's not the point.

The point is that women bring a different perspective to their writing in general than men. Trans writers bring a different perspective than cis writers. And so forth. Not better. Not worse. Different. And a given anthology, or game--and certainly the industry--are better for having that variety of perspective. It produces richer results.

Further, the industry and the market still have a strong undercurrent of prejudice. Women aren't treated as fairly, trans writers aren't treated as fairly, etc. This isn't true all the time, or for every individual, but it's common enough for it to be an issue. This is partly about making a commitment and a stated effort toward erasing those problems, those boundaries. A promise that they are being offered as safe a space as we can provide them for them to tell their stories, make their voices heard. And that requires open and overt encouragement of marginalized voices, not just blind auditions.

We believe that these goals will ultimately lead to better products, a better industry, and a better world. And even if it were true that this meant a given project (such as Lost Citadel) might be a tiny percentage less good than it otherwise would be? It would be worth it. I would rather have a B-grade book that includes women and trans authors than an A book that doesn't, for that reason.

(Not that I agree talent contests like this result in inferior writing. They don't. There are plenty of skilled female writers and trans writers out there. I'm just saying _even if they did_, it would still be worth it.)

And yes, I believe that does make it the morally correct decision, and I will support these efforts and these authors over anyone's objections.


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## Mecheon (Apr 9, 2017)

Dualazi said:


> From the press releases they've issued and the facebook post linked up thread, it seems to me that GR considers it a moral imperative to get more women into the hobby, regardless of the means or the effect on the product.




I mean, given the history of the hobby and things like FATAL almost existing?

Yes. It is a moral imperative to get as far, far, *far* away from the ridiculous past of this hobby


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## Dualazi (Apr 9, 2017)

Mecheon said:


> I mean, given the history of the hobby and things like FATAL almost existing?
> 
> Yes. It is a moral imperative to get as far, far, *far* away from the ridiculous past of this hobby




Not sure what you're trying to get at here, its infamous horribleness notwithstanding, FATAL existing is no more an indictment of the industry than any shocking or provocative film is of cinema at large.

Also, the 'ridiculous past' of the hobby is why we're here discussing this genre of game at all, and has given birth to many creative elements independent of the system itself, from novels to artwork to settings and story lines. If there was intentional gatekeeping with regards to female involvement then that's a shame, but it doesn't at all retroactively lessen the works themselves, and I reject the assumption that future works will be magically better by their inclusion. Of course, that's not to say that they can't be, only that treating it as an assured outcome is impossible.


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## epithet (Apr 9, 2017)

Hussar said:


> Umm, it's TRACY Hickman, and he's a dude.  But, you knew that right.




Don't you just hate it when your smug sanctimony blows up in your face?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laura_Hickman


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## Morrus (Apr 9, 2017)

epithet said:


> Don't you just hate it when your smug sanctimony blows up in your face?
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laura_Hickman




Namecalling. No.


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## epithet (Apr 9, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Buts is Leonardo DiCaprio is what you would consider "beefcake"? Is that the kind of male image that you want on the PHB? Leo and a hot warrior woman in a chainmail bikini?
> ... .




Doesn't matter what I consider beefcake. Let the ladies make that determination.


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## Jester David (Apr 9, 2017)

epithet said:


> Doesn't matter what I consider beefcake. Let the ladies make that determination.



They have. And their determination was overwhelmingly "no cheescake".


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## Jester David (Apr 9, 2017)

Dualazi said:


> Try again. I’m saying the blind audition would remove any logical hurdles without necessitating the removal of certain categories of applicants.



Agreed. Logically it would. Blind auditions look great on paper. 
However, people are not logical. And there are hurdles. 

In practice, you will attract more female creatives if you directly target them.



Dualazi said:


> I have no way of conclusively knowing this any more than you do. That said, I do believe it increases the chances of receiving a sub-par piece of work because of arbitrary and unnecessary restrictions on the applicant pool.



I believe that while - theoretically - there's even odds of missing the best writer, the increased diversity and different voices will improve the overall anthology as a whole, and that improving the quantity and presence of female creatives in the industry goes a long way to combating negative stereotypes of gamers. 

I also believe that any writer chosen from the talent contest will give it 110%, as it's their big break and they don't want to blow it. The worst stories in the book will likely come from the established authors, who might be busier or have less to prove. 



Dualazi said:


> That’s why I find this initiative stupid. It’s a poor moral choice (sexism against men is still sexism) and it’s a bad choice pragmatically, since they are simply walling off talent from coming forward.



Okay. Cool. So Green Ronin drops that idea. 
_What should they do instead?_
Vetoing an idea is Step One. You still need to propose a better, workable alternative. If you have no better idea then the "poor moral choice" is still the best one. 

And forty years of gaming publication has demonstrated that blind auditions have not worked, as the number of female creatives in the industry is still well below 50%. 

What's your master plan for increasing female participation in the industry and targeting more female creatives for products?



Dualazi said:


> It is a cool story. Almost as cool as the fact that author demographics had nothing to do with me shooting down your tiresome argument that sex doesn’t sell to women and that all muscle-bound men are a male power fantasy.



Sex certainly sells romance covers. And romance books with men on the cover sell three times as well as ones with just women. Buuuut... romance books are inherently sexy. Sex is a big part of that genre. Even if actual intercourse does not occur, being strictly chaste, romantic feelings are essential to the books. 

Sex and romance aren't a big part of D&D. Cheese and beefcake on D&D is cheap and obvious, like a bad superbowl ad. The sex works because it is eye catching but literally anything else eye catching would work just as well _and_ wouldn't potentially turn off a segment of the audience. 

Let's face it, nobody EVER buys a $50 book because the cover looks cool. Let alone three. People buy D&D because they already know of the game. The books could have a brown cover with some rules summary on the front and it would still sell.


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## epithet (Apr 9, 2017)

Abstruse said:


> Sex _doesn't _sell. Sex attracts attention but distracts from whatever the product is because men are looking at the pretty lady and not the product logo, while women are looking away entirely from the body-shaming image. Goes the same way for women and beefcake shots. And it crosses sexual orientation as well, so women who are attracted to women will be similarly distracted from whatever the product is advertising.
> 
> Also, what women find physically attractive and what men self-identify as a power fantasy aren't the same thing typically.
> ...



First off, you don't seem to really understand marketing very well. If the man looks at the pretty lady on the cover, he's very likely to also read the title and maybe even pick up the product to see if she has a friend smiling at him from the back cover.

Secondly, your post implies that an alluring woman on the cover is a "body shaming image," while a hunk on the cover is a man's "power fantasy." I think that is not only an unfair double standard, it is an indication that you don't have as much respect for women as you might believe that you do. You're so eager to shelter these hypothetical women who you seem to regard as fragile and vulnerable that you seem unable to conceive of a _woman's_ "power fantasy." I think one of the more interesting things to come from the recent inclusion of Wonder Woman in the pantheon of big-budget live action cinema super heroes is the discussion of the history of the character as a feminist icon, and the way Wonder Woman has empowered women and girls since well before Linda Carter wore the outfit on television.

Anyway, while the anecdotal evidence I have from the women in my life doesn't support some of your assumptions or assertions, it also doesn't make me an expert on women. This discussion has apparently devolved in part into a group of mostly (or entirely, I can't tell) men discussing what women want, which nicely underscores the point that we need more women in the hobby. That's why I was supportive of a talent search for women, until it became (in tone, to my perception) a talent search for anyone who wasn't a man.

See, I'm all in favor of a "rising tides lift all boats" philosophy. More women in the hobby is growth that will lead to more opportunities for authors (including men) and more quality RPG products for all consumers (including men.) In our current highly charged political climate, however, I'm always suspicious of anything that veers toward the "zero-sum game" philosophy, which inevitably creates an "us vs. them" mentality. I'm not suggesting Green Ronin is institutionally of that mindset, I'm just of the opinion that an "anyone but men" standard takes a shuffling little half-step in that direction.

Also, just as an aside regarding your "background radiation" cartoon: no one would be afraid of that Batman, ever. You could draw Bruce Wayne with large, intense eyes and "kissable lips," but the bat costume exists to strike fear into the hearts of Gotham's criminals. Just sayin'.


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## epithet (Apr 9, 2017)

Jester David said:


> They have. And their determination was overwhelmingly "no cheescake".




You're saying that women, collectively and overwhelmingly, determined that their standard of "beefcake" was "no cheesecake."

That doesn't make sense.

If your suggestion is that "they" determined "overwhelmingly" that the way to make a product appeal visually to women is to make all the character art frumpy, I'm calling BS on that.


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## Jester David (Apr 9, 2017)

epithet said:


> You're saying that women, collectively and overwhelmingly, determined that their standard of "beefcake" was "no cheesecake."



No. 
They collectively and overwhelmingly determined they'd rather have no cheesecake than beefcake. That the discomfort from the cheesecake is not offset by the presence of the beefcake.



epithet said:


> That doesn't make sense.



If you love pork but hate pineapple then it doesn't matter how much ham you add to a pizza, you're not going to like a slice of Hawaiian. Something you dislike being present is always going to bug you more than something you like. 



epithet said:


> If your suggestion is that "they" determined "overwhelmingly" that the way to make a product appeal visually to women is to make all the character art frumpy, I'm calling BS on that.



Your (repeated) use of the term "frumpy" is rather telling.
*Frump*y.* (of a woman or her clothes) dowdy and old-fashioned.
or 
dressed in an unattractive way; also of clothing : old and unattractive

It's not frumpy they want. It's practical. Reasonable. Armour that actually functions as armour. Women dressed comparable to men. Women adventures who seem competent as adventurers whom they can imagine themselves as. 
That's the point of:
http://womenfighters.tumblr.com/
https://gomakemeasandwich.wordpress.com/
and even 
https://feministfrequency.com/


The fact is, male adventurers presented in the books should be characters that male players want to imagine being. And that female characters in the books should be characters that female players want to imagine being. (And anyone who wants to play a character of a different gender is also cool.) Art of adventurers is there so you can imagine _being_ that character, not so you can imagine _boning_ that character.


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## epithet (Apr 9, 2017)

Jester David said:


> ...
> Sex and romance aren't a big part of D&D.
> ...
> Let's face it, nobody EVER buys a $50 book because the cover looks cool. Let alone three. People buy D&D because they already know of the game. The books could have a brown cover with some rules summary on the front and it would still sell.




Romance is a part of some D&D campaigns, not at all a part of others. Romance has been a part of RPGs since before BioWare let you woo Bastila Shan, and the 5e DMG list romantic entanglements on its carousing table in the downtime activities section.

While no one would by a $50 book for the cover art, they would absolutely pick it up and check it out. Good art, especially good character art inside the book very much helps to sell the fantasy. I'm not saying it would have been impossible for Pathfinder to steal the RPG crown in a brown paper wrapper, but it would have been a lot more difficult. Likewise, it is difficult to imagine the staggering success of D&D 5e without the art on and in the books. The art sells the fantasy, and for some people the fantasy includes cheesecake and/or beefcake, either to be or to be with.


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## Jester David (Apr 9, 2017)

epithet said:


> Romance is a part of some D&D campaigns, not at all a part of others. Romance has been a part of RPGs since before BioWare let you woo Bastila Shan, and the 5e DMG list romantic entanglements on its carousing table in the downtime activities section.



Romance _can_ be a big part of D&D. But so can running a spice trading business across an island archipelago, or riding dragons between floating islands, or travelling between planes via portals in a city inside a Torus. 
But they're not assumed parts of the game. And it's not so representative of the game that it needs to be on the damn cover. It's not as iconic as fighting King Snurre.



epithet said:


> While no one would by a $50 book for the cover art, they would absolutely pick it up and check it out. Good art, especially good character art inside the book very much helps to sell the fantasy. I'm not saying it would have been impossible for Pathfinder to steal the RPG crown in a brown paper wrapper, but it would have been a lot more difficult.



I do agree. It certainly helps attract the attention. More that likely it makes people curious enough to Google and find out more about the game. Or reassure people that the purchase is worthwhile. 

Pathfinder is a good example as well. Because the art is so diverse. You have the iconic paladin and cleric, whom are both women of colour fully covered in reasonable armour. And yet everyone keeps being drawn to the images of Seoni the iconic sorcerers who is very cheesecake. 



epithet said:


> Likewise, it is difficult to imagine the staggering success of D&D 5e without the art on and in the books.



True. But 4e had equally pretty art, albeit less representative of the diversity of humanity. 
While I doubt 5e would have done as well without the art, having high quality colour artwork is clearly not the only factor in the success of the game. 



epithet said:


> The art sells the fantasy, and for some people the fantasy includes cheesecake and/or beefcake, either to be or to be with.



And just as easily "bad" art can un-sell a book. 
See the Pathfinder example above, and look how much flack that's caused for that game despite the rest of the art being so much better (and despite the presence of beefcake like Seltyiel).


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## Abstruse (Apr 9, 2017)

epithet said:


> First off, you don't seem to really understand marketing very well.



You're plain wrong.


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## epithet (Apr 9, 2017)

Jester David said:


> No.
> ...
> It's not frumpy they want. It's practical. Reasonable. Armour that actually functions as armour. Women dressed comparable to men. Women adventures who seem competent as adventurers whom they can imagine themselves as.
> ...
> The fact is, male adventurers presented in the books should be characters that male players want to imagine being. And that female characters in the books should be characters that female players want to imagine being. (And anyone who wants to play a character of a different gender is also cool.) Art of adventurers is there so you can imagine _being_ that character, not so you can imagine _boning_ that character.




The great popularity of Buffy the Vampire Slayer among women and girls wwas not a result of Buffy's practical body armor, but it might have had something to do with Angel and Spike.

There are certainly people who make characters spectacularly unatractive, but this is usually (in my experience) either for comedic effect or because of min/maxing, not because it is a fantasy role the player wants to inhabit.

Of the women I've played RPGs with, I cannot think of a single one who wanted her character to be dressed "practical, reasonable," or "comparable to men." I'm not saying my game friends are necessarily a representative sample, but those terms don't describe their fantasy. Not all of them wanted a "sexy" character, to be sure, but they certainly haven't seemed interested in practical or reasonable gear loadouts.


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## Rygar (Apr 9, 2017)

Hussar said:


> Umm, it's TRACY Hickman, and he's a dude.  But, you knew that right.




Now would be a *really* good time to notice this his wife Laura writes too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laura_Hickman

It makes it so much less embarrassing when trying to claim someone else doesn't know what they're talking about.


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## Abstruse (Apr 9, 2017)

I commend the many people in this thread still responding to the sexist and transphobic crap. You have the patience of saints to still try explaining to these people why they're wrong.

I should warn you, however, that this column has been linked on message boards and other sites for a certain group concerned about "ethics in gaming journalism" if you can't tell by the various comments. To those people I have this to say: Stop reading my column. I neither want nor need you reading my words. You're sexist, racist, homophobic, hateful people and I want nothing to do with you in any way, shape, or form.

To those who aren't members of that group but still in here arguing like there's some point to prove in what Green Ronin's doing beyond attempting to be actively inclusive and finding new voices to enrich their product and the industry as a whole:
View attachment 83198​


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## Morrus (Apr 9, 2017)

Time to close this trainwreck down.


----------

