# Your Thoughts on the Matrix Revolutions?



## Macbeth (Nov 4, 2003)

DISCLAIMER: I have not seen Revolutions yet, I just figured one of these threads will be needed come tomorrow (or midnight if you are lucky enough to find a theatre   ), and so I would go ahead and get it started now.

So, what do you have to say about the Martix Revolutions? Did it live up to expectations? How well did it complete the trilogy?


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## dave_o (Nov 5, 2003)

I shall be seeing it tomorrow afternoon! I'm pretty stoked, if only for the excellent discussion that will follow.

I just hope Kai Lord doesn't bring out his Tongue of Lashing.


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## Tsyr (Nov 5, 2003)

My opinions in just a handfull of hours now


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Nov 5, 2003)

I'm seeing it tommorrow at 4PM...I don't really CARE if I like it or not. I just want to know what in the Nine Hells is going on!!


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## Mathew_Freeman (Nov 5, 2003)

Got my ticket all ready. I'm going to Leicester Square (central London Entertainment place) to see it at 2.30pm tomorrow - that's half an hour after the opening show. I'm pretty excited to find out what the Wachowski's have cooked up this time, and the trailer looks like great fun.

Still curious about Seraph's role in the proceedings, given that:
a) The part was originally offered to Jet Li, indicating he has a fair amount to do
b) One sneak preview has a shot of him lining up with Morpheus and Trinity
c) A shot in the trailer has (I think) him striking Morpheous. Hmmm.

Plus, more Agent Smith!


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## ConnorSB (Nov 5, 2003)

I have tickets for tommorrow at 5ish. So ready... so ready. 

Oh... this part makes me exited:



Spoiler



On the Ebert and Roper that discussed it, there was a pretty long preview that included Neo looking at bane, and in his matrix sight seeing a flaming, angry Smith.


 Sick!


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## Macbeth (Nov 5, 2003)

I just went to Albuquerque because MoviePhone listed a midnight showing, only to be disspaointed and have to settle for 7:00 AM. Now some freinds and I are planning on leaving here at 5:00 AM just to get in line at a reasonable time. Must sleep...


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## Tsyr (Nov 5, 2003)

I have seen it!

BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG spoilers, if you don't want to read them, dont.

Oh, and friendly spoiler-comments... follow the key:

 Safe for all eyes basicly... It's minorly spoilerish, but either common sense, personal opinion (Of the music, for example), or nothing plot-ruining. 
 Spoilers, but could probably be figured out from tailers and a decent leap of logic.
 Big spoiler
 Something I personaly was disapointed with.



Spoiler



Kick ass!  

Anyone who has ever doubted the religous connections, prepare to taste your foot. This movie makes it so clear it's not even funny.  

As the trailer has hinted at, yes, Neo is blinded in the real world.  

Some very, very cool developments with the Oracle... But mostly just an evolution of what you already could figure out.  

Some interesting looks at the day-to-day life of programs in the matrix... which makes it clear that, slavery aside, most matrix-ite programs are no worse than most people in general. Or that different, really.  

The fight scenes were amazing, particularly the middle-ish of the dock fight. I let out a "sweet mother of god" more than once at some scenes. Some good speaches, some great deaths.   

More than one main character dies... But even I'm not going to tell who. It's not hard to guess (One has been said will die for a long time now, another you could guess after the first one does).  

The scenes on the surface of the Earth are really well done.   

Neo's "Cyberkineses" thing is actually never really explained that well... He can "sense" machines, but it's never really said why or how, or how he can affect them. And he can do more than shut them down... He can actually destroy them. As in boom-boom destroy.  

The final fight with Smith was a bit long for my tastes. VERY "DragonBall Z" ish... insane levels of power. But very creepy at the same time.   

Some good development of minor characters in Zion, and of Seraph, one of the coolest characters of the second one, IMO.   

There is one very... um.... exotic, erotic, kinky, something or other club scene... lesbian makeouts, that actually show some skin, gay guys dancing in tight leather, people in bondage outfits, you name it. Strange. :  

Music was MUCH better than 2, and even 1 IMO, and there was no damn "rave" scene this time, or anything like it. Very orchestral, choral music at the end too.  

Some kick-ass stuff with the hoverships.  



And the one EVERYONE is waiting for, the huge one, the most asked question after 2:



Spoiler



 It's no "matrix within a matrix" or anything of the type. The matrix is EXACTLY what it is made out to be... a computer on a desolate planet.  



More to come as I think of it, or am asked. Maybe not much more tonight though, I'm tired and all that.


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## LightPhoenix (Nov 5, 2003)

Dammit Tsyr, do you know how hard it's going to be not to look at those until I see it tomorrow?  Arrrrrrrgh!!!


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## Tsyr (Nov 5, 2003)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Dammit Tsyr, do you know how hard it's going to be not to look at those until I see it tomorrow?  Arrrrrrrgh!!!




My work here is done.

For once I wanted to be the evil one.

That's a rhyme, I don't know why.

And one more thing that won't make you sigh:

Trailers there are, tons and tons and still another ton.

Yet surprisingly, most of them are fun, fun, fun.

Last Samurai there is, and one out of the blue for me, Troy. 

And Return of the King... Nothing new, but still, LotR, Oh boy!

And last, though actually in order near the first, and not least:

A new one for Punisher... Man, that man is a beast!


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## Tsyr (Nov 5, 2003)

I shouldn't be allowed to post under the influence of 3 32-ouncers of neu-coke (Our movie theater only handles pepsi products and stuff... no coke... Tsyr's Neu-Coke: 1/5 Doctor Pepper, 4/5 Regular Pepsi. It's not exact, but it gets closer all the time. Next time I try adding a little citrus of some sort, maybe give it just a bit more rounded tang)


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## LightPhoenix (Nov 5, 2003)

Tsyr said:
			
		

> I shouldn't be allowed to post under the influence of 3 32-ouncers of neu-coke (Our movie theater only handles pepsi products and stuff... no coke... Tsyr's Neu-Coke: 1/5 Doctor Pepper, 4/5 Regular Pepsi. It's not exact, but it gets closer all the time. Next time I try adding a little citrus of some sort, maybe give it just a bit more rounded tang)



Hey, if you're still up, about how long were the previews? My friend and I are looking to catch a matinee showing, but he doesn't get out of work until 5, and there are no showings in the area between 5 and 6 .


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## Tsyr (Nov 5, 2003)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Hey, if you're still up, about how long were the previews?  My friend and I are looking to catch a matinee showing, but he doesn't get out of work until 5, and there are no showings in the area.




Wasn't really timing it, but rough guestimation is 10 minutes or so. Maybe a touch over... The Last Samurai one was decently long.


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## Tsyr (Nov 5, 2003)

And now I head off to bed.

I'm so tired I could be dead.

I leave you now with spoilers and rhyme.

To torment you another time.

Enjoy my posts, or not I suppose.

It's not like it's any sort of proper prose.

And so, farewell, and now I leave for sleep.

You won't of me hear another peep,

Till morning comes and then I rise...

But I have a test in the morning! I'm screwed, I surmise!


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## Tsyr (Nov 5, 2003)

Tallarn said:
			
		

> Still curious about Seraph's role in the proceedings, given that:
> a) The part was originally offered to Jet Li, indicating he has a fair amount to do
> b) One sneak preview has a shot of him lining up with Morpheus and Trinity
> c) A shot in the trailer has (I think) him striking Morpheous. Hmmm.






Spoiler



Seraph is just what he seems to be, really. He's a program that, whatever it's original purpose, kicks ass now. He's loyal to the Oracle above all else, and definetly seems to agree with her on most issues. He does what the Oracle needs doing but is herself unable to do. There is some connection with him and the frenchman, and we are told that he was an apprentice or something like that to him. He is also a very well-known program it seems. He never turns against the good guys though.



*edit* ACK. Forgot a spoiler tag. Hope I caught it in time.


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## Kesh (Nov 5, 2003)

Oh yes... I shall see this today, and post my thoughts tonight.


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## ASH (Nov 5, 2003)

I have heard a lot of bad things about the movie. It seems the majority of the people so far were dissapointed. I hope it was just the group of people on the other site.
But none the less, I am going in with low expectations. I do not want to be dissapointed. I really liked the second movie, even more than the first. So, I guess I am just hoping it will be good!!!


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## Tsyr (Nov 5, 2003)

I was not dissapointed in the least. 

I think, easily, it is the best of the three films.

On further reflection, I wonder if a lot of the people who were dissapointed were such because their personal theory on The Great Truth (TM) behind the Matrix turned out to be wrong.


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## Mathew_Freeman (Nov 5, 2003)

First a foremost - a massive thumbs up for this one. Really enjoyable good film.

Thoughts:

1) The Battle Zion - oh my Gawd! Frickin' A! One of the most awesome fight scenes I have ever seen. Well considered, clever, tense, dramatic...everything.

2) I actually thought the final battle was a little on the short side!

3) Very ambiguous ending, nothing really explained, but nevertheless very satisfying. And a neat little postscript, too.

4) Loved the Trainman section. Neo - "Oh ." 

5) Something I did notice. All three films follow a pattern. First, something that hints at the rest of the film. Then, a scene involving dancing. Then, the big middle-of-the-film awesomeness. Then the end. Think back of the basic structure of each film, and you'll see they match up quite neatly. I went into this film wondering if, about 20 minutes, we'd be in some sort of club. Doors open - clubbers everywhere. 

6) Hugo Weaving - what a guy.

7) Keanu does really well in this film. Couldn't fault his performance at all. He had everything down, the cool calm power of Neo, the much more vulnerable human side in the real world.

Basically, the film rocks in large amounts, and I look forward to hearing what everyone else thinks about it.


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## Macbeth (Nov 5, 2003)

Just got back. Awesome film, perhaps not as good as the first, but better then the second. Having a hard time keeping my thoughts together after only four hours of sleep and a one hour drive to and from the theatre. Great movie... zzzzzzzzzz....


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## Welverin (Nov 5, 2003)

Tsyr said:
			
		

> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Neo's "Cyberkineses" thing is actually never really explained that well... He can "sense" machines, but it's never really said why or how, or how he can affect them. And he can do more than shut them down... He can actually destroy them. As in boom-boom destroy.




Actually I believe it is, or at least an explanation is given, whether it's good enough for you is another matter. 



Spoiler



As the One, Neo has a connection to the source, which I believe exists at all times and is what allowed him to see and affect things outside the matrix. I pay particular attention to that when I see it again tonight.





			
				Tsyr said:
			
		

> On further reflection, I wonder if a lot of the people who were dissapointed were such because their personal theory on The Great Truth (TM) behind the Matrix turned out to be wrong.




I think I feel a little of that, I won't let it be a problem though. Not sure I like how a few things were resolved (or not resolved), but that will take more viewings to be sure.



			
				Tallarn said:
			
		

> 5) Something I did notice. All three films follow a pattern. First, something that hints at the rest of the film. Then, a scene involving dancing. Then, the big middle-of-the-film awesomeness. Then the end. Think back of the basic structure of each film, and you'll see they match up quite neatly. I went into this film wondering if, about 20 minutes, we'd be in some sort of club. Doors open - clubbers everywhere.




Except Morpheus didn't lose his faith and regain it, and no one died and came back to life (like Neo in M1 and Trinity in M2).


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## Tsyr (Nov 5, 2003)

Welverin said:
			
		

> Actually I believe it is, or at least an explanation is given, whether it's good enough for you is another matter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yeah, I'm fine with that to a point, but 



Spoiler



how does that give him the ability to blow machines up with his mind?


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## Macbeth (Nov 5, 2003)

Tsyr said:
			
		

> Yeah, I'm fine with that to a point, but
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



The machines have the source in them too. He can manipulate the source, or some such. I'm not really sure. Maybe some things are just best left a mystery? Then again maybe I should just go back to sleep...


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Nov 5, 2003)

Okay, what everyone wants to know is: What Rage song closes the film?


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## Tsyr (Nov 5, 2003)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> Okay, what everyone wants to know is: What Rage song closes the film?




Actually, 



Spoiler



it closes with a pretty cool techo-orchestral-choral peice.


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## Chain Lightning (Nov 5, 2003)

My review below does not contain any examples or discription of scenes. However, I do talk about the movie in broad general terms. 
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I was one of 'those guys' that didn't totally bash on Matrix:Reloaded. Lots were saying it was a crappy movie. Now, I did think Reloaded did have many flaws. However, not enough for me to not like the movie. Overall, I enjoyed myself. 

I say this because I don't want someone to read this and assume that perhaps I fall into the camp of viewers that walk into the theatre with negative thoughts already hovering in their heads. Negative thoughts from the previous installment. 

Having said that, I think Revolutions was the weakest of the three films. Not a train wreck of film....but there is (to me at least) a noticeable drop in quality from Reloaded to Revolutions.

Dialogue it seemed suffered the biggest drop in quality. The brothers are starting to show their comic book roots. Not to insinuate that comic books are a medium where bad writers dwell. However, the type of dialogue being spoken is of the same flavor of bad comic book dialogue. This maybe an incorrect label, but its about the best way I can try to describe it right now.

Basic overall story structure is solid, but individual chapters seem to be either misused, illconceived, or poorly being able to further the story in any emotionally impacting way. The first fifth of the movie is a good example.

A lot character arcs don't come full circle or resolve in any satisfactory manner. The changing of the actress that plays the Oracle could've been done more imaginative. An unfortunate and sad loss to the community of actors, but I wish they could've done something more interesting with her sudden change.

The conclusion felt flat and not very epic at all. Especially the last few scenes before credits roll. 

I give Matrix:Revolutions a 5 out of 10 [ 10 being highest score].
Matrix: Reloaded gets a 7 out of 10.
Matrix gets a 8.5 out of 10.

Despite scoring the movie lowest out of all three, its definitely worth seeing if you're into some cool visuals. Lots of stuff to 'ooh' and 'aaah' about as far as cool effects and/or fights.


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## Chain Lightning (Nov 5, 2003)

My review below does not contain any examples or discription of scenes. However, I do talk about the movie in broad general terms. 
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I was one of 'those guys' that didn't totally bash on Matrix:Reloaded. Lots were saying it was a crappy movie. Now, I did think Reloaded did have many flaws. However, not enough for me to not like the movie. Overall, I enjoyed myself. 

I say this because I don't want someone to read this and assume that perhaps I fall into the camp of viewers that walk into the theatre with negative thoughts already hovering in their heads. Negative thoughts from the previous installment. 

Having said that, I think Revolutions was the weakest of the three films. Not a train wreck of film....but there is (to me at least) a noticeable drop in quality from Reloaded to Revolutions.

Dialogue it seemed suffered the biggest drop in quality. The brothers are starting to show their comic book roots. Not to insinuate that comic books are a medium where bad writers dwell. However, the type of dialogue being spoken is of the same flavor of bad comic book dialogue. This maybe an incorrect label, but its about the best way I can try to describe it right now.

Basic overall story structure is solid, but individual chapters seem to be either misused, illconceived, or poorly being able to further the story in any emotionally impacting way. The first fifth of the movie is a good example.

A lot character arcs don't come full circle or resolve in any satisfactory manner. The changing of the actress that plays the Oracle could've been done more imaginative. An unfortunate and sad loss to the community of actors, but I wish they could've done something more interesting with her sudden change.

The conclusion felt flat and not very epic at all. Especially the last few scenes before credits roll. 

I give Matrix:Revolutions a 5 out of 10 [ 10 being highest score].
Matrix: Reloaded gets a 7 out of 10.
Matrix gets a 8.5 out of 10.

Despite scoring the movie lowest out of all three, its definitely worth seeing if you're into some cool visuals. Lots of stuff to 'ooh' and 'aaah' about as far as cool effects and/or fights.


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## KenM (Nov 5, 2003)

Just got back from seeing it, my thoughts: I thought the last fight was way over the top. I'm surpised Neo did not start to fire laser beams from his hands. I also thought the movie took itself way to serously, the first 2 had at least some light moments. Plus if you think about it 



Spoiler



Since Neo just made a peace, for now, and fixed the matrix, for now. They will go back to fighting once the machines need more power and start taking the humans again. Also, if the machines need the humans for power, why go to Zion to kill, why not take as many humans back for power?


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## Macbeth (Nov 5, 2003)

KenM said:
			
		

> Just got back from seeing it, my thoughts: I thought the last fight was way over the top. I'm surpised Neo did not start to fire laser beams from his hands. I also thought the movie took itself way to serously, the first 2 had at least some light moments. Plus if you think about it
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My interpretation:



Spoiler



The architect is going to let any humans that WANT to leave the matrx leave, but the humans that have no idea that they are in the matrix, or who know but don't care, will stay. Presumably, with a peace between humans and machine sthey can owrk together to find more power. If the humans use geothermal energy, why not the machines, now that they work together?


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## Uzumaki (Nov 5, 2003)

One quick question from someone who hasn't seen it yet:

Are the twin ghosts from Reloaded in it?


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## Tsyr (Nov 5, 2003)

Uzumaki said:
			
		

> One quick question from someone who hasn't seen it yet:
> 
> Are the twin ghosts from Reloaded in it?






Spoiler



And just so the length of my response won't give it away, no.


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## reapersaurus (Nov 5, 2003)

I just gotta say:
Tsyr- those rhymes of yours were very impressive.


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## Starman (Nov 5, 2003)

I just got back from seeing it and one of the things that baffled me was 



Spoiler



that the Oracle told Neo that the power of the One extended to all worlds, yet he didn't use his power to resurrect Trinity as he did in Reloaded. Any ideas?



Starman


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## Kesh (Nov 5, 2003)

Saw the 12:30 pm showing of Matrix Revolutions today. So, here's my thoughts.

Short version, without spoilers: it did a good job of tying together the plot and providing a good ending to the story. Not everything was cleanly answered, but most of it was laid out for us. There wasn't as much action as the previous two films, but a lot more large, military-style events. So it wasn't as gripping, but still very fun.

Oh, and don't sit through the end credits. There's nothing special afterwards.

Now, on to the main review...

I'll start off by mentioning the trailers before the film. Looks like there's a new film based on Marvel's _The Punisher_ comics. Doesn't look too bad, might even be fun, but I was never fond of Punisher anyway.

Another _Fast and the Furious_ rip-off, but by the original creators. This one is motorcycles, called _Torque_.

A sweet, sweet trailer for a thriller called _Mindhunters_. FBI trainees, specializing in serial killers, are finally about to finish their training and have to go through an exercise simulating the events of a deranged killer. Unfortunately... someone really _is_ a psychotic killer, which is discovered when one of the traps is real and kills an agent. But.. the only people on the island are the trainees and their teachers.

The trailer for _Troy_ blew me away. It's the Trojan War done _Gladiator_ style. 'nuff said. 

And, the teaser trailer for _Return of the King_. I was hoping for the full trailer, but oh well. On to the movie!

*The Matrix: Revolutions*

No intro. No flashbacks. You jump right in where we left off, with minimal exposition to set up the story. Might want to go rent/rewatch _Matrix Reloaded_ before you go to the theater.

Zion is less than a day from destruction. Neo is in a coma... and Bane/Smith is unconscious right beside him. So, now what?



Spoiler



We do learn a lot in this film. Programs can gain emotions, or a relatively close approximation thereof. They have just as much choice as humans, but most programs choose not to fight their purpose.

Choice is the real focus of the story, which is delivered with just the right amount of firmness. Not over the top, not too subtle.

Neo's ability to affect machines in the real world wasn't actually explained, nor his ability to access the Matrix without a link. I suppose that's a suspension of disbelief point, though a tough one to make.

The effects were, of course, excellent. Great job blending CGI with real actors this time, nothing as blatant as the "Burly Brawl" in the second film. The APCs, or mini-mechs as I like to call them, were pretty well done. I especially liked how they had to be reloaded with ammo, which came to be a critical part of the story.

The Neo/Bane fight was pretty well done. A decent reason for the strobe-light effect, and I was shocked by Neo being blinded. It really fits the archetype though... made blind, so he can 'see'. Though the makeup people saved money by putting the blindfold on him. 

I liked the Machine City. Interesting visual design. The Big Floating Head was pretty cheesy though. 

And finally, the Neo/Smith fight. I figured out how Neo was going to win back when I first saw _Reloaded_, but it was interesting to see how he got there. The FX were great, the combat was fun (if a bit hard to actually see) and the solution made sense.

My biggest complaint with the film was the death scenes. The APC captain and Trinity should've been dead, dead, dead... instead, they managed to have a nice conversation and say everything they needed to before dying. Gah.

There was very little of the signature hand-to-hand combat in this movie. Carrie-Ann Moss got to do her favorite bits, though, during the "Hell Club" fight. Including her classic jump-hover-kick from the first film. Nice to see that again.

I wish the Merovingian had died. Damn, patronizing, rambling... grrf. 



Overall, I'd give _Revolutions_ 3 out of 5 stars as part of the trilogy, 2 out of 5 as a film you see by itself without watching _Reloaded_ first. They really are one big movie, so watching them back-to-back would make it flow a lot better.

Personally, I hope that someday the brothers edit together _Reloaded_, _Enter the Matrix_ and _Revolutions_ into one extra-large director's cut someday. Dunno how that'd fit on a single DVD though.


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## Macbeth (Nov 5, 2003)

Starman said:
			
		

> I just got back from seeing it and one of the things that baffled me was
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Seemed to me that 



Spoiler



it was just her time to go. She was ready to die, and her death was needed for him to sacrafice himself in the (very christ-like) death scene.


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## Dpulse303 (Nov 5, 2003)

Well what a film, loved it .
cool effects, great scenes,
people dying and not coming back to life ,great ending....inevatable


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## Kesh (Nov 5, 2003)

Starman said:
			
		

> I just got back from seeing it and one of the things that baffled me was
> 
> 
> 
> ...






Spoiler



Keep in mind that, in Reloaded, he was accessing the 'code' that made up Trinity to remove the bullet 'code', then using her link to force her heart to restart. In this film, she had *real* re-bar through her chest. That kind of damage can't be changed. He can affect machines, he can affect code, he can even affect people plugged into the Matrix... but he's not all-powerful.


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## Mathew_Freeman (Nov 5, 2003)

Yeah, 



Spoiler



Trinity died in the real world. Ain't nothing Neo can do about that.

In another note, can someone confirm that the Indian guy in the train station is the same one that we spotted in the Merovingian's resturant in _Reloaded?_

I also thought that this one had the right amount of black humour in it. Neo "...but I think you'll have to drive" for example. Neo running back into shot in the train station was another wryly funny moment, as was his reaction. I found myself laughing several times during the movie.

As far as Neo's ability to destroy machines in the real world, I suppose you could say that he can manipulate code wherever he is via the Source, so when facing machines he can destroy them by destroying their code, even if he's not plugged in.

I was surprised Neo didnt' spot Smith in Bane's body as soon as he opened his mouth. I mean, who else do we know that calls him "Mr Anderson"?


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## Macbeth (Nov 6, 2003)

Tallarn said:
			
		

> Yeah,
> 
> 
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> ...






Spoiler



The indian guy says that he worked for the merovingian. Is he the same actor? I don't know. But is he the same character? Yes.


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## Kesh (Nov 6, 2003)

Tallarn said:
			
		

> Yeah,
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> ...




Positive ID, yes. He even says as much in the film.



> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I also thought that this one had the right amount of black humour in it. Neo "...but I think you'll have to drive" for example. Neo running back into shot in the train station was another wryly funny moment, as was his reaction. I found myself laughing several times during the movie.




Same here. Most of the other audience members weren't laughing quite as much as me, though, so I guess some of the jokes didn't work for everyone.



> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I was surprised Neo didnt' spot Smith in Bane's body as soon as he opened his mouth. I mean, who else do we know that calls him "Mr Anderson"?




Yeah, really. 


Spoiler



Plus, the actor playing Bane had Hugo Weaving's personality quirks and pattern of speech down pat. Sounded perfect.


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## Macbeth (Nov 6, 2003)

Kesh said:
			
		

> Positive ID, yes. He even says as much in the film.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, Hugo Weaving bears an amazing resemblance to my CS teacher. You should hear Prof. Keisling (aforementioned CS professor) do his Smith impression. It give me goosebumps...


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## AshremBayle@Home (Nov 6, 2003)

Loved it!

I did find myself asking many of the same questions as you guys about some of the seemingly unresolved stuff.

Great movie though. I think they wrapped it up pretty darn well.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Nov 6, 2003)

Woah...just...woah.

I expected this to be horrible. I really did...but...I don't see anything unresolved. It all makes sense to me at least.



Spoiler



Neo's jacking into the Matrix WAS explained, but only in passing. Simply, the one is connected to the Source. He sent orders THROUGH the Source to stop the sentinals, but since he wasn't actually ready for it, he fell into Limbo. 
And I have to say...I LOVED the Arthurian ending with Neo. That was just too good.


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## Macbeth (Nov 6, 2003)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Woah...just...woah.
> 
> I expected this to be horrible. I really did...but...I don't see anything unresolved. It all makes sense to me at least.
> 
> ...





Spoiler



Aruthrian AND Christ-like! You just got to love those literary allusions.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Nov 6, 2003)

Macbeth said:
			
		

> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Aruthrian AND Christ-like! You just got to love those literary allusions.





Spoiler



Yep...I just didn't expect ANYTHING Arthurian at all. That was a big surprise to see the 'boat'. Its just like Arthur in that, he's 'dead' but will come BACK when he's needed.
...did any of the other movies have Arthurian styled allusions? I sure didn't catch any...


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## Macbeth (Nov 6, 2003)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Spoiler
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Spoiler



Not that i can think of off the top of my head, but with th number of biblical/mythalogical/literary allusions, I'm sure there must be SOME other Arthurian reference...


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## AshremBayle@Home (Nov 6, 2003)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ..... Its just like Arthur in that, he's 'dead' but will come BACK when he's needed.....




Yea? Whats up with that?


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## Tom Cashel (Nov 6, 2003)

Tsyr said:
			
		

> ...maybe give it just a bit more rounded tang




Mmmm...rounded tang.


----------



## LightPhoenix (Nov 6, 2003)

Just got back myself.

I'm really not sure what I thought of it.  I know I didn't dislike it.  Though I was another person that was not a _Reloaded_-basher.  Like I said though, I'm really not sure exactly what I thought of the whole thing.



Spoiler



I was a little disappointed at the whole Christ-story - Smith is the Devil, the Devil is in all of us (sin), Neo sacrifices himself for their sins, frees them to make their own choices, will be back when needed.  I would have liked to have seen them put a little more twist on the whole thing.


 
I need more time to let it sink in, but I'll have more thoughts later.


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## Starman (Nov 6, 2003)

Kesh said:
			
		

> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Keep in mind that, in Reloaded, he was accessing the 'code' that made up Trinity to remove the bullet 'code', then using her link to force her heart to restart. In this film, she had *real* re-bar through her chest. That kind of damage can't be changed. He can affect machines, he can affect code, he can even affect people plugged into the Matrix... but he's not all-powerful.




You're right. I wasn't thinking of his resurrecting Trinity in Reloaded in terms of fixing the code, but in performing a "miracle."

Overall, it was a good movie, but I was a bit let down. The brilliant part of the first movie was figuring out along with Neo the answer to "What is the Matrix?" The two sequels did not have anything like that for the audience. While I enjoyed Reloaded and Revolutions, I don't feel that they became greater than the sum of their parts as the first one did.

Although, the Wachowski brothers greatest crime is not featuring Monica Belucci in every scene.  

Starman


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## Quasqueton (Nov 6, 2003)

I really liked the first two movies, and I really liked this one. But 



Spoiler



I feel stupid for not understanding the ending. What did Neo do? The movie just suddenly seemed to tidy itself up and end. I was left with, huh? It was like a handwave to finish the plot. What did I miss?



Quasqueton


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## Starman (Nov 6, 2003)

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> I really liked the first two movies, and I really liked this one. But
> 
> 
> 
> ...






Spoiler



Neo let Smith "assimilate" him so that he was essentially inside Smith. Then he destroyed himself and all the Smiths.



Starman


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## Wulf Ratbane (Nov 6, 2003)

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> I really liked the first two movies, and I really liked this one. But
> 
> 
> 
> ...




No, you're absolutely right. It was a hand wave. 

Phantom Menace had better plot.

No, I'm not a "hater," and both 2 and 3 were interesting in a "spectacle" kind of way-- but I'm not afraid to call 'em like I see 'em. The Wachowski's were too clever for their own good and dangled more threads than they could handle.

Now I have to scrub Matrix 2 AND 3 out of my head to be left with the perfection and satisfaction of Matrix 1-- a movie that needed no sequel. The original Matrix is _diminished_ by 2 and 3 in the same way that the original Star Wars trilogy is dimished by TPM and AoTC. 

Wulf


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## KChagga (Nov 6, 2003)

Hmm, I was entertained, but I am highly disappointed in the way it ended.  I can't believe you people are satisfied with that as a conclusion. Namely 



Spoiler



that we are left in almost the same position that the first movie began in.  The majority of the human race are being used as energy slaves for an enslaving robot master race.  Sure the robots are going to let anyone who isn't satisfied with the matrix out.  How many people actually didn't believe the illusion of the matrix.  Not that many.  Even if they get let out.  What then?  They get to try to survive somehow in the machine dominated world.  Probably still trapped in Zion.
People are still slaves.
Those who aren't are essentially cockroaches in the machine society.
That is pretty sucky and essentially exactly the same way these movies started out.
There is essentially no resolvement of the driving conflict to the story.
If Smith being out of control was the problem, then yes we have a conclusion, but he wasn't the main problem.
I also thought that the last scene against Smith was totally a Dragon Ball Z fight.  I kept waiting for one of them to start screaming about how incredible their power level.  Then they would have started lobbing energy blasts around.

There also were quite a few loose ends.
What about the food as code.
Was the oracle programming Neo? He refused her candy in this one.


I was entertained, but very disappointed.  I give the Matrix 9/10, Reloaded 8/10, Revolutions 7/10.  The original movie on its own is better then the trilogy.  Wulf Ratbane is right the sequals bring the original down.


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## Dagger75 (Nov 6, 2003)

I didn't care for this one.   Let me try this spoiler thang



Spoiler



Okay A piece of plexiglass on the Mechs might have save a few pilots lives or at least let them live longer.  
  Nit picky things but it just irritates me.  They can make hovering ships and guns that shoot lightning but apparently they have no idea how to sew a shirt.  

 The idea of rogue programs and the Mirovigan and such was actually the coolest thing in the second movie (the twins), they were never in this one. 

 For those of you who didn't "understand" the end, I'll join you.  Its like they ran out of money 5 minutes before the movie actually ended.  

 What I liked-- The ship flying through the tunnel to Zion was cool. The mechs were neat, I also did like how they had to be reloaded.

 What I really hated
The fight at the end-  I HATE Dragonball Z, this felt like that. I was waiting for a spirit bomb.



 3 out of 10 for me.  Wish I had gone and seen Alien instead.


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## mmu1 (Nov 6, 2003)

I was pretty dissappointed by it, actually.

It was all action and virtually no substance (yes, you can rationalize the "hand-waves", and some people here are doing a very good job of it, but the reality is that the movie was riddled with plenty of glaring ones, though the pseudo-philosophical tone of the films lends itself to passing them off as features rather than bugs), but the action was nowhere near as good as in the first two. Not a single scene that even came close to the Morpheus rescue or the Neo/Smith fight in the original, or the freeway sequence in _Reloaded_ - frankly, the Zion battle scene was boring in comparison (woo-hoo, 30 minutes of people shooting guns at unfeeling robots that keep on coming anyway). When I go to see a Matrix movie, I want to at least see some excellent martial arts choreography , not a blurry and computer generated Neo and Smith doing a (as someone aptly pointed out) a Dragonball-Z act.

Combine the above with the fact that the nothing was resolved, little was explained, interesting characters like the Merovingian hardly played a part, and it really becomes a bit of a turkey. Not a bad movie, but not nearly as good the second one, and crap compared to the original Matrix. 

It made it very obvious that there was never any kind of larger story beyond the first film (Wachowskis seem to have caught the George Lucas disease, there) and that the first movie is much better left standing on its own merits...


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## TBoarder (Nov 6, 2003)

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> I really liked the first two movies, and I really liked this one. But
> 
> 
> 
> ...






Spoiler



It looked like he did what the Architect told him to do at the end of Reloaded, entering the source and rebooting the Matrix.  This time, however, he allowed Smith to assimilate him before the reboot took place, destroying him as well (thus making sure Smith didn't carry over to the next version).  Since Neo was in the Machine City, he entered the source through there, rather then through the Architect's area inside of the Matrix.


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## s/LaSH (Nov 6, 2003)

That was _cool_.

Now we see what the Matrix Online has to say about it... (that's the MMORPG currently in development, set _after_ Revolutions). There may be interesting things there...

I am a little disappointed that 



Spoiler



there was no new layer of reality revealed, nor was Neo's 'broadcast' ability adequately explained. Sure, he's touched the Source. That doesn't explain how he can do what he does... unless he's _psychic_. Which implies disturbing things about the sophistication of the machine intelligences. It also explains his early visions of his last journey.



Why is everyone so down on DragonBallZ, though? Is it perhaps that there's a _better_ show about people who have that kind of power? (Let's forget the slow plot and the adolescent dialogue and the fact that the combat is culturally influenced.) Superman has never fought that desperately, and he's the only other character I can think of who's that powerful.

Perhaps it's just that people haven't thought through what it really means to be able to move with a thought. If Neo has that level of power, that's how it's going to get used. If you don't want him acting realistically... well, don't give him that power.

Anyway, I'd rate the film as a spectacle, not a brainmelter like the first. It's proved some things can be done, some things I'd be very excited to see used for certain other properties. It's about very brave people, which in a way is a flaw - 



Spoiler



I think it might have had more emotional resonance if just one character had hid under a bed screaming at one point, those Sentinels can't be too endearing to watch. I think that could be why Two Towers was awesome, despite being essentially the same. Don't fret, they're both films about big battles, people being convinced to do things, solitary journeys - it's just that Revolutions wasn't quite as human in regards to cowardice.


 And it's expanded on a world that could be very interesting to interact with down the trail.

Oh yes - early on I found myself wondering why everyone looks so impassive when they enter a lift. It's like they have a Standard Elevator Pose that they assume. Is that good battle tactics, or just the actors?

Overall, though, I wasn't disappointed. Like certain anime, there was a lot in there not spelt out for you, and figuring out what it means is half the fun. Is spoonfed plot important? Maybe for some, but I don't really care for it... I like a movie that lasts after I've left the cinema.

To echo a previous poster: don't wait through the credits, there's no final reward. The music's cool, though.


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## Imperialus (Nov 6, 2003)

Personally I didn't find the ending confuseing or anything like that, but the hand wave as people have been calling it rather irritated me, to put it into terms the cencor won't pick up.  It almost seemed like the two brothers got a bad case of writers block when working on the final scene, only instead of working their way through it they almost adopted a philosophy of 

"well, we have their money anyhow, and it's not like we're makeing another one so... HA HA!  Thanks for giveing us enough money to retire off of."

Appart from the last 5 minutes however the movie was a spectacular visual feast.  I loved the Zion battle, and I've never seen Dragonball Z so I can't really say the Neo/Smith fight was too much like that, sure it was over the top but these are basically two demigods kicking the crap out of each other, of course it will get ugly.  It was cirtanly better than that "Burley Brawl" in Reloaded.  I do wish Merovingian played a bigger part.  I really liked his character in Reloaded but on a whole, with a different ending I'd probably be going to see it again tommorow, as it stands I might watch it again once it hits the cheep theaters.


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## Agamon (Nov 6, 2003)

I loved it.  I got the ending.  I was satisfied with the ending.  



Spoiler



I knew the humans weren't going to outright defeat the machines,


 that much couldn't have been more obvious from the last movie if they slapped you in the face with it.



Spoiler



Anyone that thought the fight was silly must have thought the same of the horde fight in the last movie too.


  Which is too bad, I thought they were both quite entertaining.



Spoiler



Does it seem to anyone else that the ending leaves an opening for something more?


  That entices me more than disappoints...

Silly spoiler tags.  Why back in my day, I went to the movie before reading the durn threads...


----------



## Mistwell (Nov 6, 2003)

Might want to put the spoiler tags on your post, Agamon.


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## Mistwell (Nov 6, 2003)

Spoiler



I liked the movie, however I was unsatisfied with the ending, and some of the plot holes.

1. Humans did not achieve their goal.  Morpheus makes it clear in the first two movies that the goal is to eventually release all humans from bondage by the machines.  In no way is this goal achieved.  In fact, the goal of peace is the same as saying the machines win.  Zion always could have had peace.  The architect said he let Zion exist as a release for those small percentage of humans that didn't want to stay.  So what exactly has changed? I mean, sure, agents won't attack people from Zion anymore in the matrix when they try to free people, but the basic problem - that people are enslaved by machines, is still the exact same problem.  It's just now marginally easier to extract people from the Matrix - but not greatly so.

2. The sun is there, and there is a sky, in the real world, at an altitude fully reachable by simple platforms and solar panels.  You do NOT need humans to generate energy.  A *Hover Car* was able to reach the height of open sky!  The machines can build the monstrosities of technology we saw, but not a friggen building that reaches 30 stories? Come on!



More later


----------



## Wycen (Nov 6, 2003)

Saw the movie Wednesday afternoon.  Enjoyed it, but some people here make good points, which is why I came here, hoping to fill in some blanks and help form my thoughts on the trilogy. 

Of course the background info we get from watching The Animatrix should have told me not to put too much thought into what might happen.  Once they said, "the machines were immune to nuclear bombs" I threw my hands up in the air and tried to enjoy the pretty colors.

As for the dome scene, damn, you don't want to be an ammo reloaded for the infantry.

And for those who don't like Dragon Ball Z, I suggest thinking of the final battle as the last battle in the movie Dark City.  That was my first thought.


----------



## Chain Lightning (Nov 6, 2003)

Spoiler



I actually like the Dragon Ball Z style end fight with Smith. And yes, it is VERY much in the style of Dragon Ball Z. I'd be very disappointed if there wasn't one. If Neo stood fought with only speed and slightly above human strength....that would've been boring. There needs to be an escalation to fights that go up along with his abilities.

For those of you who liked the movie and are attempting to 'fill in the blanks' for us that were disappointed, here's a question I never got answered by the 3 movies:   What's with Neo's ability to dream/see into the future?In 'Reloaded', the Oracle says, "You have the sight now Neo". The story arc on that ability goes absolutely no where. He doesn't dream or foresee anymore after "Reloaded". It was just there to make him have artsy bad dreams of doom basically. 

Other stuff: the unclear resolution to Smith. One of you mentioned that Neo allowed himself to be assimulated so he can then self-distruct and kill ALL Smiths. Yes, I can see how the seen can be interpreted like that, but how can we be for sure? Where's the evidence in the film of that move? My first impression was that the 'big face machine leader-guy' injected a cleansing program/energy stream into the Smiths via Neo once he was assimulated. Or the 'big face machine leader-guy' hit self-destruct on Neo's body/the source with same result in mind. Its truly sloppy and unclear. The only way it can be clear, is if you're really convinced your own interpretation is THE ONE. But there's no proof that tells the audience 100% for sure what happened. I think there needs to be. 

Another thing. The last few seens where horrible imho. The little girl talking with the Oracle and that sunrise.........that's our big trilogy conclusion?


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## Tsyr (Nov 6, 2003)

Chain Lightning said:
			
		

> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Other stuff: the unclear resolution to Smith. One of you mentioned that Neo allowed himself to be assimulated so he can then self-distruct and kill ALL Smiths. Yes, I can see how the seen can be interpreted like that, but how can we be for sure? Where's the evidence in the film of that move? My first impression was that the 'big face machine leader-guy' injected a cleansing program/energy stream into the Smiths via Neo once he was assimulated. Or the 'big face machine leader-guy' hit self-destruct on Neo's body/the source with same result in mind. Its truly sloppy and unclear. The only way it can be clear, is if you're really convinced your own interpretation is THE ONE. But there's no proof that tells the audience 100% for sure what happened. I think there needs to be.






Spoiler



The proof is in the Architect and the rest of the machines. He/they is/are honoring the deal that Neo made with the machines -- that is, if he got rid of Smith, the machines would stop, and peace would exist.


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## Dagger75 (Nov 6, 2003)

*If I made the ending*

My ending if I wrote the movie



Spoiler



I would have had people waking up to the world out of there bubbles seeing what the world was really like now.  A few would chose to leave the Matrix and live in the Zion, the rest angry and mad being showed what it is really like. They would want to be put back into the Matrix and live a fake life rather than a real one.

 The whole war would have been fought for nothing as most of the people choosing to remain in the Matrix. There would have been peace, the source woudn't have to attack Zion, knowing full well it has already won.

 Thats just me.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Nov 6, 2003)

Spoiler



Another way to look at Neo-Smith is that Neo is an Anti-Virus to CLEAN OUT Smith's Virus. So Neo let the virus take him over, then his code was used to destroy it and reboot the Matrix.

The biggest problem I'm seeing is that people expected WAAAY too much from this movie. It ended fine...it tied everything together, it just stayed to a 'simple' plot. I don't see it as being too much to bring together at all...because really, Neo WAS a Messiah figure. He was essentially pyschic. They don't blatantly tell you all of this, and of COURSE they don't tell you what the Matrix is. Why? Easy.

"No one can be told what the Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself."

The Matrix, was choice. The machine's CHOICE.


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## Berandor (Nov 6, 2003)

Let me be the first to say it:

*I hate the spoiler tags!*

I mean, they are a very good idea, if you post in a general topic and want to leave a sentence or so hidden, because obviously not everyone reading the thread will want to know.

But after highlighting 67 posts, all full of spoiler tags, my head swims, and I don't even know who said what or what was said, simply because I my eyes began bleeding halfway through.

I'd say in a discussion such as this one, put *spoiler* at the start of the thread, or at your post's beginning, and go from there.

Especially when most "spoilers" here deal with no spoilerific details.
"The Merowingian's character is not fully explored."
"The battle of Zion is cool."
"Smith and Neo fight like Dragonball Z."
No real spoilers, because they don't deal with details, or important details. Nobody's gonna say "Hey, you just told me Smith will fly at the end - the movie's ruined!"
Also, it's not a real spoiler to say "Zion is saved at the end.", as long as you don't go into detail how.

Also, theories and interpretations, like the messianistic undercurrent or the relation between Smith and Neo, aren't spoilers as long as no detail from the movie is given away - they don't need spoiler tags.

On the other hand, 



Spoiler



Trinity dying, Neo being absorbed by Smith, Neo being blinded, Smith absorbing the oracle


... these deserve spoiler tags.

Please, please, use them discreetly - for the sake of my eyes and the last shred of sanity I retain.

On topic:
I liked the film. I liked they explained little, and left the end kind of hanging. The effects were superb. The film lacked a little of the emotional punch of a true classic, but it was a very fun film, and as far as fun action movies go, it was at the top of its game.
8/10 to me; and I disliked Reloaded _a lot_.

The Wachowskis still lack the ability to do really great last-minute-rescues. You have to let the viewers in on them, so they don't feel surprised when suddenly the rescue happens. Ex.: 



Spoiler



Trinity cutting the lights when Neo faces Bane; the kid being saved by a particle blast; Neo realizing he must let himself be absorbed


. On the other hand, the fight for Zion was so involving exactly because the audience knew 



Spoiler



the "Hammer" was coming to help them


.

I really would have seen Seraph 



Spoiler



with wings


, as hinted at by the Merowingian.

All in all, a fulfilling finish to the series to me.

Berandor


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## Quasqueton (Nov 6, 2003)

And what was the deal with the little girl?



Spoiler



Her program parents (apparently from the matrix) were putting her on a train to go. . . where? She ended up in the matrix, where the parents say they live. Why did they need to ride "the train" to get the girl to the Oracle? The parents were programs with "mundane" jobs? Why would they need programs that did the jobs of humans? And then at the end, the little girl created a rainbow effect at sunrise? Huh?

The first two movies, when I think more about them make go, "cool". This movie, though, when I think more about it makes me go, "huh?"

Although I do like Smith's reaction after assimilating the Oracle. And he essentially "explained" that reaction when he told Neo that he knew he would win the fight. This is the only plot piece that got wrapped up for me. All the other little things just went over my head, I guess.



And I went into this movie fully expecting to love it, because I loved the first two. But the tapestry they were weaving seems terribly frayed with loose strings here at the end. I liked this movie as a spectacle (to take someone else's words), but not as a final part of the trilogy.

Quasqueton


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Nov 6, 2003)

I watched a Matrix Triple Feature (all three movies in a row...) last night.
I think the movie was great.

The special effects were... well, spectularly, great, superb. The ending was worthy.

Yes, there may be still some questions, but remember: there are always questions that are left unanswered. 
(After the princess marries the prince, they live happily everafter? Really? Do they get kids, and what will they do? Didn`t the evil stepmother sisters and brothers that might want to avenge her?)
I somehow think it might... well, belittle my movie experience if I try to wrap up some things, especially since I know that not everybody will agree with me, so I just won`t do it. 

Well, finally, everybody has to decide for himself if he liked the movie. I decide for myself: I liked it. I hesitate to give any film a 10 out of 10, so let´s make it 9/10.


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## Someone (Nov 6, 2003)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> No, you're absolutely right. It was a hand wave.
> 
> Phantom Menace had better plot.
> 
> ...




I agree 100% with Wulf.


----------



## Kesh (Nov 6, 2003)

Couple quick points...

For those who think we 'lost':



Spoiler



Consider that Morpheus' goal was essentially total freedom for humans, which = destruction of the machines. In this case, humans and machines reached a compromise, and can work _together_ to rebuild the planet. Humans alone would be pretty screwed.



Regarding the girl and her parents:



Spoiler



Her code was being transferred to the Source (aka Machine Mainframe). As was said in the second movie, when a rogue program wants to avoid deletion, they can either attempt to hide out in the Matrix or return to the Source. Sounds like her parents went with the safer choice, let the Merovingian smuggle her code into the Source, and then (so she wouldn't be alone) she was allowed to access the Matrix under the care of the Oracle.

Her parents didn't exactly have human jobs... it sounded like the father was a program in charge of the city's power systems, while the wife was some kind of data processing program.



And the ending was appropriate. Sure, they could've shown the aftermath, shown the rebuilding, but it would've just been what we already know: after a war, people have to start picking up the pieces and letting go of old grudges.


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## Technik4 (Nov 6, 2003)

*Dissapointment*

My thoughts and broad strokes, potentially contains spoilers if you consider any knowledge of the movie a spoiler.

Disappointment rushed through me as I sat and watched. The movie is just over 2 hours but easily less than half is focused on Frodo, I mean Neo, on his path to destiny. We focus very long on some irritating heroes like Zee who with her bald female friend (name even mentioned?) ends up scoring some big points for the resistance. Then there is the kid, who predictably also saves the day. Someone mentioned people talking after death too much, I totally agree. Jason, commander of the resistance is still irritated, all-the-time, and the council's purpose is only to ask some redundant questions now and then. And of course there is time for long, drawn-out conversations with Indian programs, which is a little amusing and informative, but otherwise feels out of place. 'The last exile' isn't even mentioned in the other movies (although it is in the game) and for the role to be so pivotal (apparantly) seems off.

And the machines, the bad guys, just dont seem too bad-ass anymore. In the first movie Sentinels had lasers, in the second there were Sentinel-bombs (waiting outside of EMP range then flinging themselves at hoverships). In this movie Sentinels have "battery" power and other than that are only good because of their sheer numbers. Remember in Matrix when the Nebuchanezzar (sp?) is fleeing from like 6 sentinels? Seems to me that they could have taken em out with some guns. There is a new character though, with the apt name Train-Man (least inspired name *ever*) who is 1) Crazy and 2) has bad teeth and hair and dresses like a bum. Great. We also find out that the Merovingian is almost as powerful as he is made out to be, what with the bondage club, controlling critical characters like Keymaker and Trainman and all. Not. We question how the heck he even got control of such characters because he is so inept in his home (typically where you are strongest, right Train-man?).

And as for the heroes, the stars? Well the true stars get almost equal billing with the lowly resistance fighters (see paragraph 1) with Neo getting more than anyone (but still less than either previous movie). Trinity kicked a little ass, Morpheus kicked almost none - even Seraph had more action. Sad. Neo's journey I don't have too much trouble with and despite the outcome of his fight with Smith being really obvious, I enjoyed it. However, Neo was pretty oblivious to some things I think wouldve been obvious (Bane IS Smith). Disbelief is an ok vindication for his oversight, but really he IS the one, he HAS the sight, and he is pretty much breaking a bunch of rules too, is it such a stretch to think that someone else can too?

Overall I felt it was the weakest of the trilogy and am debating whether or not to wait for some sort of 'trilogy pack' (as I had planned) or just buy the first and be done. I am a huge matrix fan, despite not owning it, and have played the video game, watched the anime, and been in numerous discussions about the overall plot and defending Matrix: Reloaded. I wasn't a 'hater', but my underwhelment was noticeable on my face. I think it still makes for a good sci-fi action movie (always a rarity) but hardly does the previous 2 justice.

Technik


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## Maraxle (Nov 6, 2003)

Wow.  I've seen an overwhelming amount of negativity surrounding this movie.  It sounds like quite a few were disappointed.  I'm glad at least Mustrum_Ridcully had something good to say about it.

Admittedly, I was only lukewarm on the first movie.  I thought it was an interesting concept, but am not a huge sci-fi fan, so I wasn't terribly enthusiastic about it.  I was pretty bored throughout the second movie, but had held out some hope that this one would make the second one worth it.  But now I'm seeing that both the people who liked the second one and the people who disliked the second one seem to dislike this one.  For someone like me, that's a bad sign.  I mean, if only the people who liked the second movie hated this one, I could justify it to myself by saying, "Well, I disagreed with them on the last one, so maybe I will on this one too."  Or if only the people who disliked the second one hated this one, I could rationalize it by saying, "They went into it with a negative attitude, so they hated it because they expected to."  But no... everybody hates it.  That tells me that it really does suck.

Now I have no desire to see it.  I mean, why should I spend $7 on a movie that the casual fans and even the super-fans think sucks?  In a way, I'm disappointed, as I was hoping to catch a movie this weekend, but now there's nothing playing that I want to see.  On the other hand, I'm kind of happy.  Everyone else saved me from wasting a couple hours of my time on something that sucks.  They also opened up a whole realm of possible things that I can spend my $7 on.  Think about it.  Now I can buy myself a whole plate of Mexican food AND a Pepsi.  Or, if I'm not hungry, I can get a nice PDF product from RPGNow, or possibly a used or budget-priced module from my FLGS.  I could even fill up the gas tank on my Jetta almost half-way.  I could get a six-pack of beer, as long as I don't get LaBatt Blue, since for some reason it's overpriced at the one store that carries it here in Richmond, and after tax ends up being about $7.35 for a sixer.


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## Aaron L (Nov 6, 2003)

Well, everyone who complains about the machines using humans as energy, etc.  This is only what the humans think the machines keep them alive for.  I don't buy it, and teh machbines never say that it is true.


And as for Neo's powers outside the Matrix: 



Spoiler



I though it was pretty clear that the Source Neo was conected to was the power source.  He was seeing energy conduits and things in the machine city, and he was blowing up sentinels by overloading them.  I know that doesn't explain how he saw Smith, but I know it has something to do with that.


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## Mathew_Freeman (Nov 6, 2003)

I want to say again that I have enjoyed all three movies, and that I also enjoyed the open ending more than a nice, neat, everything-is-tied-up sort of ending.

The Aurthurian moment was neatly done, too.

Oh, the reason Morpheus and co didn't just shoot the Sentinels in the first film is that they're hiding from them. Suddenly going into a hail of gunfire really isn't the sort of thing you want to do when you're trying to avoid detection. The Sentinels can no doubt talk amongst themselves, so if you start shooting one it'll tell all it's friends and then you're really screwed.


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## Technik4 (Nov 6, 2003)

*Rationalization*



> Oh, the reason Morpheus and co didn't just shoot the Sentinels in the first film is that they're hiding from them. Suddenly going into a hail of gunfire really isn't the sort of thing you want to do when you're trying to avoid detection. The Sentinels can no doubt talk amongst themselves, so if you start shooting one it'll tell all it's friends and then you're really screwed.




I suppose, although sentinels are never seen to have that capacity. As fast as they were getting taken down in this movie, it seems they could have shot them up and chased down any trying to broadcast "we found a ship". Either interpretation seems ok, my point was sentinels seemed stronger in the other movies whereas in this one they are the fodder getting taken down like flies.

Which brings me to these APC (APU?) thingies. Its been said that Zion has been in skirmishes before, (which doesnt follow, as that implies the machines know where Zion is, which is the crux of the first movie and skipped over in the second) hence the need for such defenses. And someone else made a good point about the front not being covered, I kept waiting for another thing to get lowered over the pilot - it would seem the din of all those guns would cause you to go deaf and the vibrations would make it near impossible to aim with any accuracy. The training courses must have been brutal though, I mean obviously they were done in the matrix (I know kung-fu) on how to operate/target sentinels, so why doesnt every 'holed' citizen in Zion have that capacity? I know there arent that many of these units, but its only a few seconds to have the knowledge.

Inconsistencies were mounting (but there was a chance the 3rd movie would dispel them), but little was revealed (and I can understand not revealing some things, for the mystery) and more inconsistencies created. Hence my distaste. I still feel it is a decent movie, and it IS the kind of movie I go to the movies for (big action/explosion) it just let me down in terms of the potential I assigned to it (being as good as the first, or possibly (gasp) better).

Technik


----------



## KenM (Nov 6, 2003)

I also can't belive all this tech that the humans have, but the can't patch holes in clothing? Also the piolt area in the ACP things whould have been better protection, having the totally exposed like they were is just sucide.


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## ASH (Nov 6, 2003)

I liked it. I think that people who did not like it probably expected too much. Or Thought there was more meaning in things like the kiss in the second movie or the candy that the oracle was giveing Neo.  Yes there was cheseey dialoge. Some scenes were too long.  I liked the small side characters they were not given *that * much attention.  I understood it. Yes some of it you have to take on what was suggested and not proven with facts but its a movie not a court case. 

Good movie.!!!


I cant wait for Return of the King!!!!!


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## jasamcarl (Nov 6, 2003)

I think most people who disliked the movie expected evocative if not humane dialogue, suspenceful pacing appropriate to an action film, non-mastubatory special effects that served the need of the aformentioned action script, and a coherent tone which didn't languish in the hypocricy of film-makers who bask in a deconstructionist philosophy while pumping there films with orchastral noise and assorted other demonstration of their own pomposity.

But that could just be me...


----------



## ASH (Nov 6, 2003)

I think that some people really do expect too much from a movie. Its a movie. Did it entertain you..yes or no...
If not than thats great but it did me, and a lot of other people too!

But to each their own.


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## KenM (Nov 6, 2003)

ASH said:
			
		

> I cant wait for Return of the King!!!!!




  Me either, Return of the King will blow Matrix Revolutions away, IMO. But Like you said, I might be expecting alot from it.


----------



## Chain Lightning (Nov 6, 2003)

When I go see movies, I don't expect too much....and I don't expect too little either. I go in neutral. I have so many friends that fall into the trap of expecting too much, or expecting the wrong thing, or being too easy on a film, or whatever. 

I go in neutral. I go in relaxed and in a good mood. I love watching movies. Even bad ones I don't mind too much. I just love theatres. I love it when the lights go down and the previews start coming up. At that point I'm already in a good mood. The slate is blank. What happens after that is entirely up to the makers of the film. As I watch, points start either going up or down. Or both....

Now, all I can do is sit here and type this. There's no way for you to really believe what I'm saying is true. Most likely, some will just think "yah whatever, you expected too much". But there's only so many times that I can retort with "no I didn't" before it becomes a waste of time. So all I ask is some trust on your part. 

I didn't expet too much.

My score still stands. " Matrix:Revolutions " : 5 out of 10


Tsyr wrote:







> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> The proof is in the Architect and the rest of the machines. He/they is/are honoring the deal that Neo made with the machines -- that is, if he got rid of Smith, the machines would stop, and peace would exist.









Spoiler



That still doesnt' tell me what happened EXACTLY. That tells us that Neo kept his part of the bargain and that the machines kept theirs. That's all. As far as the conclusion to the Neo/Smith fight....all we know is: Neo let himself be assimulated, Neo's body started to strain chest upward in the real world, energy came out of his eyes, mouth, and nostrils in the real world, his whole body was radiating tons of light in the orange/yellow 'machine vision' p.o.v., the assimulated neo blew up, then the other Smiths blew up. That's all we know.

We really don't know if Neo caused the explosion or if the machines did it through Neo. I admit we have a vague idea....an assumption as to what happened. And to some that's good enough. But I consider it a little sloppy writing/directing.



Ankh-Morpork Guard wrote:







> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Another way to look at Neo-Smith is that Neo is an Anti-Virus to CLEAN OUT Smith's Virus. So Neo let the virus take him over, then his code was used to destroy it and reboot the Matrix.




We can look at the resolution of that fight in a hundred ways. It still does'nt refute the fact that the resolution doesn't show the audience clearly what happened. I can speculate all day long. Maybe to some, that's a cool thing. The charm of the movie. While I do find certain deeper more subtle parts to be fine left up to speculation and mystery, this fight shouldn't be.

P.S. the trailer for "Troy" was awesome!


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Nov 6, 2003)

Chain Lightning said:
			
		

> We can look at the resolution of that fight in a hundred ways. It still does'nt refute the fact that the resolution doesn't show the audience clearly what happened. I can speculate all day long. Maybe to some, that's a cool thing. The charm of the movie. While I do find certain deeper more subtle parts to be fine left up to speculation and mystery, this fight shouldn't be.
> 
> P.S. the trailer for "Troy" was awesome!




Well, from the way I see it...it wasn't JUST a fight. It was THE fight. But I do understand your view on it. I like that its left for the viewer to work things out themselves, it just fits how the Wachowski brothers seem to do things and it seems to help the "No one can be told what the Matrix is..." quote from the first movie.

...and yes....Troy looks so great!!!


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## ASH (Nov 6, 2003)

Hey, I dont want to judge anyone specifically.  
 I just understand that some times I have higher expectations than I should, and that can ruin a movie.  

For instance I did not expect The Two Towers to differ from the book and when it did I was a little annoyed and that kind of ruined the movie going experience. But seeing it again, I reailized that the movie is awesome...regarudless if its close to the book or not.  

I just see alot of people picking the movie apart for, what seems to ME to be really small picky reasons. I have done that before  too, I mean I hated   Gladiator for alot of reasons that other people just thought were stupid reasons to hate a movie. I am not calling anyones's reasons stupid, just difficult for me to agree with. 

I am also not saying it was the greatest movie in the world.  If I were to rate it I would probably give it a 6.5 out of 10. Entertaining, a bit above average. 


Also I am basing my expectations of Return of the King on the two first movies. They are, in my opinion, the best two movies I have ever seen. I have no doubt that the expectations I have will be let down. It also helps that I will read the third book after seeing the third movie so that if their are changes I will not be dissapointed.


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## Trainz (Nov 6, 2003)

Just came back from seeing it:



Spoiler



I think the mecha battle was awesome. Absolutely awesome. I would love to see other movies like that.

As for the rest... it was average. Even under par some times. Trinity's death scene was VERY bad.

The movie was just what I expected, a great roller-coaster ride. The W. brothers should have realised that and eased up on the talk scenes. They are not good with talk scenes. They should diminish them, or take pointers from Tarantino.

Now THAT is one great director.

The preview of Troy gave me shivers, and that movie preview from the guy that did ID4 (some ice-age New-York thingy) really intrigued me.


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## s/LaSH (Nov 6, 2003)

Maraxle said:
			
		

> Wow.  I've seen an overwhelming amount of negativity surrounding this movie.  It sounds like quite a few were disappointed.  ...  That tells me that it really does suck.




No it doesn't. Well, not for me, and not for the people who've rated it, who seem to rate it somewhere between 5 and 9 stars. Say 75% and you've still got an enjoyable film, right?

Anyway, I think most problems have been caused by people accustomed to Hollywood garbage, where everything MUST have a happy ending, where everything MUST be spelt out for the guy in the back whose largest leap of imagination was back before he could talk when he tried to eat playdoh (about 9 or so), where everything MUST be wrapped up neatly and allow people to forget the film so they can see the next one from the studio (and when they're making a film every week or two, that's a lot). If you're not a brainwashed zombie, you'll be more satisfied with the film.

No offense to brainwashed zombies, of course. You're a vital cog in the corporate machine that makes movies possible.

Anyway, I really did enjoy it, and if you're ready for it, I suspect you will too.



Spoiler



And to state something fairly obvious: Neo has psychic powers, and the machines are powered by the human soul. I mean, he can see the future (like when he was in the Trainman's realm), he can see without sight (but he can't see things without souls, like giant iron girders), he can project his soul out of his body (albeit not reliably). The Source is a machine soul thing. Fairly simple, really. The Oracle is a machine, true, but she's a machine with _soul_. Which opens the possibility of her having psychic ability too.

As for the little girl: I got the impression that her parents were not Matrix inhabitants, they were inhabitants of the Machine City. Someplace you never see from virtual. Machines need power and creativity too, you know. Anyway, she's a program without purpose, so they're taking her into the Matrix, where things are considerably less policed. I imagine she'd look a lot different in the Machine City. The Trainman ran a conduit between machine virtuality and human virtuality, a hyperlink that's not an exclusive hyperlink. (Frex, the Source isn't part of the Matrix, but they're still linked.)


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## Trainz (Nov 6, 2003)

jasamcarl said:
			
		

> I think most people who disliked the movie expected evocative if not humane dialogue, suspenceful pacing appropriate to an action film, non-mastubatory special effects that served the need of the aformentioned action script, and a coherent tone which didn't languish in the hypocricy of film-makers who bask in a deconstructionist philosophy while pumping there films with orchastral noise and assorted other demonstration of their own pomposity.
> 
> But that could just be me...



Oh no, I am 100% with you on this one. My thoughts exactly.

I think that some (otherwise great) film-makers are overwhelmed by the new techniques and technology that are available nowadays. Lucas and the W. brothers come to mind. They are so obssessed by the tools at hand that they forget what makes a great film GREAT, that is, screenplay. 

A movie is a huge jigsaw puzzle with square pieces. It takes skill and genius to be able to put this pieces together, no matter how pretty and shiny those individual pieces are.

Maybe in 5 or so years the novelty of the new techniques will fade away and producers will get back to making movies.

/not holding my breath.


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## s/LaSH (Nov 7, 2003)

s/LaSH said:
			
		

> ...people who've rated it ... seem to rate it somewhere between 5 and 9 stars.




Actually, after consulting the Rate Revolutions thread, it seems the AVERAGE is 64%, but the distribution is all wonky - it seems you either think the movie sucked (a minority), or (like most people) that it was very good. Not awesome, according to the figures, but very good.

Just like to set that straight.


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## Technik4 (Nov 7, 2003)

> Anyway, I think most problems have been caused by people accustomed to Hollywood garbage, where everything MUST have a happy ending, where everything MUST be spelt out for the guy in the back whose largest leap of imagination was back before he could talk when he tried to eat playdoh (about 9 or so), where everything MUST be wrapped up neatly and allow people to forget the film so they can see the next one from the studio (and when they're making a film every week or two, that's a lot). If you're not a brainwashed zombie, you'll be more satisfied with the film.




You enjoyed the movie. Fair enough. I didn't. The reason isn't because I'm a brainwashed zombie, and is ironically for the very reason you say I didn't like it. Too much hollywood cheese and predictability. I *knew* as soon as we started seeing them get so much as a little movie time (and imo they got a lot) that some of the bit characters would end up being 'heroes' and doing great things. Only in hollywood would things like that happen, and they irritated me. I *enjoyed* some of the obscurity between where Neo got his powers, how they worked, and the ending. I *didn't* like most of the mundane (non-matrix) fights, most of the dialogue/scenes with non-critical story characters, and more generally the 'vast' focus that it took (3 different big scenes at once, through the whole movie).

It would be like a d&d game where you played for 30 min, then the dm told you what happened back in town for 30 min, then told you what another group he dms is up to for 30 min. Reduce those extras to 5 or 10 minutes and I'm cool with it, but taking as much time and having so much heroics killed a lot of those scenes to me. I was cringing in the theater as my friend asked "When are we going to see Neo again?". The title would be more apt were it "Zion: Revolutions".

Technik


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## Rugger (Nov 7, 2003)

ASH said:
			
		

> I think that some people really do expect too much from a movie. Its a movie. Did it entertain you..yes or no...
> If not than thats great but it did me, and a lot of other people too!
> 
> But to each their own.




I couldn't have said it better myself. 

And before I saw the movie, I was one of THOSE people...I wanted to have all the answers handed to me on a plate, and for this movie to somehow cure cancer and bring peace to the world.

But when I walked out, all I could say to myself was "That was fun!"

And I couldn't be happier. 

-Rugger
"I Revolution!"


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## KenM (Nov 7, 2003)

Warner Brothers said there will be no more Matrix movies, but think about this: 



Spoiler



If Neo is a christ figure, he will rise again in three days......



  I am also basing my expectation of RotK on the last 2 movies. A friend of mine loved FotR, hated TTT because it was not as close to the book.


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## Macbeth (Nov 7, 2003)

KenM said:
			
		

> Warner Brothers said there will be no more Matrix movies, but think about this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



One of the actors has also hinted that there may be more, though one of the producers outright denied it.


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## Mistwell (Nov 7, 2003)

s/LaSH said:
			
		

> Anyway, I think most problems have been caused by people accustomed to Hollywood garbage, where everything MUST have a happy ending, where everything MUST be spelt out for the guy in the back whose largest leap of imagination was back before he could talk when he tried to eat playdoh (about 9 or so), where everything MUST be wrapped up neatly and allow people to forget the film so they can see the next one from the studio (and when they're making a film every week or two, that's a lot). If you're not a brainwashed zombie, you'll be more satisfied with the film.
> 
> No offense to brainwashed zombies, of course. You're a vital cog in the corporate machine that makes movies possible.
> 
> ...




Wow.  You've visciously insulted 70% of the people in this thread.  How can I respond to this without getting banned? I can't, so I guess I won't.


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## Dagger75 (Nov 7, 2003)

I deleted what I was going to post here.


 Sorry I could not live up to THE MATRIX.  Guess I should just go back to watching Jerry Springer and Joe Millioniare.  Sorry for seeing the movie and not liking it.


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## Macbeth (Nov 7, 2003)

Hey, lets calm down here. Some people liked the movie some didn't, thats why this thread is titled "YOUR Thoughts." If you liked it, fine, if you disliked it, fine, nobodies opinion is less valid. Lets just leave all of the "offensive" comments in the past (or maybe delete them) and move on with discussion, without demeaning anybody else's opinion.


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## ASH (Nov 7, 2003)

> Posted by Dagger75 - Yesterday at 11:52 PM
> I deleted what I was going to post here.
> Sorry I could not live up to THE MATRIX. Guess I should just go back to watching Jerry Springer and Joe Millioniare. Sorry for seeing the movie and not liking it.



 

I am so sorry if anything I typed brought you to feel this way.   I think its great to express your opinions and alot of people did not like the movie for a multitude of reasons.  I dont think it is fair to refer to anyone as a brainwashed zombie.  

 I like hollywood garbage, Charlies Angels Movies,  even mindless shows such as Zena warrior princess. One of my favorite movies is Mulan Rouge. Survivor is my favorite TV show.
  But like I have previously stated, I hated Gladiator, and still do. I dont think anyone is stupid for liking it! 


My husband hates most movies considered Hollywood movies.  He has a standard of actors and producers that he expects to find in a good movie. Pretty much hates most TV shows, especially Everybody Loves Raymond.
  (he also disliked Gladiator.)

We both liked Revolutions.  
Neither of us are sheep or zombies, brainwashed or otherwise.


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## Dagger75 (Nov 7, 2003)

I found a picture of a tank that was supposed to be used in the movie.


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## Arthur Tealeaf (Nov 7, 2003)

Dagger75 said:
			
		

> I found a picture of a tank that was supposed to be used in the movie.




Hah! Great stuff!


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Nov 7, 2003)

Arthur Tealeaf said:
			
		

> Hah! Great stuff!



Nice picture, indeed.  I wondered about it in the movie, too.

But there is a simple reason why the characters aren`t sitting behind 2cm of steel, it is even spelled out on the whatisthematrix page - they wanted the audience to see the characters. Quite simple. Imagine you couldn`t see them - wouldn`t that make the whole fight quite boring - all you would be able to see were machines and weapons, no characters. Realistic, maybe, but boring. 
So, if it helps you: in the "real" Zion, the pilots of the APUs are shielded. In the movie Zion, they aren`t. 

Mustrum Ridcully


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## kingpaul (Nov 7, 2003)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> But there is a simple reason why the characters aren`t sitting behind 2cm of steel, it is even spelled out on the whatisthematrix page - they wanted the audience to see the characters. Quite simple. Imagine you couldn`t see them - wouldn`t that make the whole fight quite boring - all you would be able to see were machines and weapons, no characters. Realistic, maybe, but boring.



Wasn't that reasoning also utilized when Starship Troopers was created?


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## Berandor (Nov 7, 2003)

Sorry, for picking you ou, TrainZ, but just an example of the spoiler-tagytis around here:


			
				Trainz said:
			
		

> Just came back from seeing it:
> 
> I think the mecha battle was awesome. Absolutely awesome. I would love to see other movies like that.
> 
> ...



You see? Much better!

BErandor


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## s/LaSH (Nov 7, 2003)

OK, I apologise for the 'brainwashed zombies' comment. That was more directed at Hollywood execs, as filtered through my brain, and came out more vitriolic than I intended it, and interpreted as an attack against people I was inferring to be victims, not villains.

If I instead asked people who didn't like it to 'free their mind from tradition', would that have been better phrasing?

Anyway, I'm quite the zombie myself. I enjoyed Charlie's Angels almost as much as Revolutions. I was trying to make some kind of point, and on consideration, I rolled a 1. Fine line, I crossed it. Sorry.

Carry on, then.

Oh, and I did wonder about the APC armour issue. I suppose it would have been too difficult to create individual mech designs to distinguish important characters, as the Japanese would have done, and still have them look realistic. ("Ha! My APC is pink, with red feathers on the back!" "Yeah, well mine's got six arms and bangles!" It just doesn't work for the established tone.)

However, I think it's fairly obvious why they don't have great clothing in Zion - where would they get the material? The sheep? The vast cotton fields they happen to have out the back? Nah, they've managed to get this much together, they're pretty lucky to have it. (Sure, they've got some sources of biological matter - probably big tanks of food algae, though. About a billion years too primitive to create decent fibers.) So what little stuff they have managed to put together, they'll keep around without unravelling it to make new ones, because they're concerned with other matters.

And Bane's actor was spot-on. Incredible. Just gotta say that.


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## KenM (Nov 7, 2003)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> Nice picture, indeed.  I wondered about it in the movie, too.
> 
> But there is a simple reason why the characters aren`t sitting behind 2cm of steel, it is even spelled out on the whatisthematrix page - they wanted the audience to see the characters. Quite simple. Imagine you couldn`t see them - wouldn`t that make the whole fight quite boring - all you would be able to see were machines and weapons, no characters. Realistic, maybe, but boring.
> So, if it helps you: in the "real" Zion, the pilots of the APUs are shielded. In the movie Zion, they aren`t.
> ...





  They could have plexiglass windows or something so you can see the characters. Not having any sort of protection for the driver is just stupid. I also don't see how not seeing the driver would make the fight boring. Lots of movies/ anime with tanks/ planes/ mecha fights are exciting without seeing the drivers during the fights.
   With the Starship Troopers movie, I heard the could not get the suits right, so the did not put them in.


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## mmu1 (Nov 7, 2003)

If you want to get anal about it, all those APUs (or at least as many as possible) shouldn't even had any pilots inside them. They could have just been controlled remotely from behind 10' of concrete by people with matrix jacks.

Not that I think it's necessarily a bad thing, but all Zion technology is style without any substance. Some of the more nonsensical things:

1. Building a city underground by excavating cavities hundreds if not thousands of feet across instead of having a tunnel network, wasting God knows how much effort in the process and making the place completely indefensible. (done, of course, to make for better visuals in the movie)

2. The mysterious shortage of EMP devices after 50 years of war against the machines. (a complete hand-wave to justify the pointless and wasteful battle at the docks)

3. Apparently, nukes don't work against the machines, but explosive shells filled with hand-ground powder do. 

4. Mechs - the ultimate in style over substance. Ought to have built hover-tanks, they definitely have the technology...


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## Tsyr (Nov 7, 2003)

Chain Lightning said:
			
		

> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> We really don't know if Neo caused the explosion or if the machines did it through Neo. I admit we have a vague idea....an assumption as to what happened. And to some that's good enough. But I consider it a little sloppy writing/directing.






Spoiler



My point was, by virtue of the fact that the machines are honoring the bargin with Neo, we know that it was Neo that did it, not the machines. After all, if the machines had been the final blow, they wouldn't feel compelled to honor the agreement. The agreement was for Neo to solve the problem.


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## Tsyr (Nov 7, 2003)

Everyone is saying "Well, the Zionites had all this technology, why didn't they..."

I don't think they DID have all that technology.

They did not, for example, build the hoverships. They are pre-matrix. So is, most likely, everything else in Zion. Zion is mostly a city of scavengers. Witness, for example, the fact that they were loading shells by hand, as opposed to on an assembly line.

Further, that councilmans speach about "I have no idea how any of this technology works" and such... I think that's a very strong indication that Zion is basicly a very primative place. They have figured out the basics... enough to maintain and repair stuff, it seems. But not to build anything new at that level of technology.


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## KingOfChaos (Nov 7, 2003)

Bah..there goes my hope for an actual deep science fiction movie with a lot of symbolism in it.  They ruined it by turning it into a crappy action flick -.-


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## mmu1 (Nov 7, 2003)

Tsyr said:
			
		

> Everyone is saying "Well, the Zionites had all this technology, why didn't they..."
> 
> I don't think they DID have all that technology.
> 
> ...




That's not how things work - it's only in sci-fi that you end up with the ability to maintain and repair high technology without actually being able to build anything. Unless you have an endless supply of spare parts lying around, being able to repair computers, robots and hovercraft over 50 years requires the same abilities as building them from scratch - you have to be able to make your own semiconductors.

You can come up with a complicated and far-fetched explanation for the discrepancies in Zion technology (in the best geek tradition of rationalizing plot-holes and technobabble at any cost that probably goes back to before the heady days of orginal Star Trek) or you can accept the simple explanation that the directors made a stylistic choice that doesn't make logical sense.


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## jasamcarl (Nov 7, 2003)

s/LaSH said:
			
		

> OK, I apologise for the 'brainwashed zombies' comment. That was more directed at Hollywood execs, as filtered through my brain, and came out more vitriolic than I intended it, and interpreted as an attack against people I was inferring to be victims, not villains.
> 
> If I instead asked people who didn't like it to 'free their mind from tradition', would that have been better phrasing?
> 
> ...




See my above comments. I'm still stuck with the archaic yearning for decent character development and a script that doesn't mistake pomposity for wit/intelligence....


----------



## MarauderX (Nov 7, 2003)

Ok, gotta comment on this finally after seeing it last night.  

Chase scene:


Spoiler



I thought it was great that the Trainman got away, and made more of an interesting quandry of 'what do we do now'.  The figured something out naturally, and I liked how Merv and his peeps are all decked out like they should be - the Devil in his lair, hell, as he was striking deals with all sorts of people from the indian guy to Morph & Trin.  Everyone comes to him eventually...



The Oracle:


Spoiler



I think she doesn't really have a 'soul' per se, but probably just sits and runs probability of things occuring in a certain manner based on actions and reactions of everything she sees, which is a lot.  It's safe to say she influences things to an outcome she wants, and probably cooks up ways to manipulate people and outcomes.  After all, this whole thing has happened 6 times before, right?



Zion:  Cool.


Spoiler



The graphics were cool, eventhough some of the timing was perhaps a little off for my tastes.  I was wondering why the 'spiders' didn't use some different stratagies for attacking, but I loved it for the shear amount of action anyway.



War:  what's it good for?


Spoiler



I wonder how the war originally got started in the first place, and why the machines bother with the pesky humans when they have enough of a problem with some cancerous programs seeking to doom the system.  And why should Neo save the machine's network for them?  Perhaps in a few hours the machines would have been shut down or taken over by Smith, and if Zion could have held out longer they wouldn't have to worry about being attacked until Smith took total control, which he seemed close to doing.  Would Smith have just shut the matrix and all of the machines down, leaving the humans to die?



Matrix logic: why plug humans into the Matrix to begin with?


Spoiler



I also was wondering why the machines didn't cook up a program or two to deal with Smith, to affect him when they were assimilated just like Neo did.  As Smith controls all of the 'human' minds in one neat bundle, start trying to re-write his code to make him more docile, or put him in a sub-Matrix that keeps the human 'batteries' under wraps.  
Then I got back to the original conclusion - if the humans are only used for heat and electricity production, why do the machines ever plug them all in a Matrix?  Why bother when you could keep them floating in the baggies doing the same thing?  Put some restraints on them at birth and forget about entertaining them.  They would lose any advantage to learn and ability to communicate, rendering a pack of free humans pretty close to neanderthals.  But thankfully I am not a machine, as that doesn't make for a great set of movies.



Overall, I gotta give the trilogy a 10/10 simply for having very cool ideas and running with them, as well as mucking with your mind.  The action scenes are the best out there for this day and age, and with a story that began by making you second-guess what reality is, how can you go wrong?  The religious, greek mythology, and other references were well thought out and depicted and I couldn't have been more pleased with the direction of the films.


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## buzzard (Nov 8, 2003)

Just got back from seeing the movie. It was good. It wasn't great. It also wasn't bad. It was simply good. It did what it needed to do to be a Matrix movie- it was cool. Was it as cool as the first one? Of course not. Cool is fairly dependent on novelty. However it was cool because it kept you watching.

Now was the direction, dialog and plot first rate? Not really, but then that has never been what the Matrix is about, so don't fool yourselves. It has always been about Cool. I walked out thinking "that was cool. " Of course when I left the first movie I walked out saying "That was COOL!!". I will at some point own the whole series and be willing to watch all of them (with judicious use of the scene skip during Reloaded). 

buzzard


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## Wolf72 (Nov 8, 2003)

hey MarauderX ... have you seen the animatrix yet? ... the second rennaissance pt's 1 and 2 will explain some of the origins of the war for you.

*wolf just got back from seeing the show ... very pleased*

I glanced over some comments already written, and I think one reason that they didn't really use armor ... well it didn't do so hot the first time around (the first war w/ the machines).

anyway I like how they showed that the sky was pretty well _still_ scorched ...

first chance I get I'm gonna spend a couple of hours on the matrix site ... free comics anyone?

[edit] ... weren't most of the EMP's on the hovercrafts? ... how would the battle have gone if smith/bane hadn't sabotaged the attack. ... I wonder if the had the tech to build EMP's, it seems they were left overs in the hovercraft that just worked.  (but yah, I would have tried to get a couple of EMP's around home too).


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## Trainz (Nov 8, 2003)

To reajust my original comments with everything posted here (made me think), it is true that, has a whole, the Matrix is a success. It wasn't LOTR, but the W. bros. succeeded.

And also, the open mechs, the dirty clothes, and all those... is like complaining about the sound you hear when a ship blows up in Star-Wars. It would have been more realistic, but the general "feel" of the movie would have suffered: artistic license.

Thanks for the heads-up on how to properly use the spoiler tag Barendor.

And I totally forgot about 



Spoiler



the Bane character.


 THAT was MIND-BLOWING ! The way 



Spoiler



he spoke with Smith's speech manerism,


was masterfully done. I kept looking at my GF with a "WOW!" look during that scene. Some very memorable scenes in the 3rd matrix, despite it's flaws. 

But you see, that scene (



Spoiler



the Bane character


) was about ACTING and SCREENPLAY, not gazillion dollars special effects, which was the point of my previous post in this thread.

But in a sense, the fact that I forgot such a cool thing after watching the whole thing, is kinda a failure as a whole... of the producers, or my brain, that is yet to be determined...

_edit: dyxlesia_


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## Tsyr (Nov 8, 2003)

Re: Bane



Spoiler



Actually, I think the actor for Bane did Smith TOO well. ANYONE who had ever been around Smith for more than a few seconds (Like Morpheus and Neo) should have recognized the speach mannerisms (And even the voice) almost instantly.


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## buzzard (Nov 8, 2003)

Tsyr said:
			
		

> Re: Bane
> 
> 
> 
> ...






Spoiler



Yes, but it was also firmly believed that an agent  couldn't take over a human or especially come back into the real world. Hence Neo had such a hard time making the connection even with all the prompting.



buzzard


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Nov 8, 2003)

Oh...someone was talking about why the machines didn't just build up past the sky, and along the same lines, why the humans didn't just fly UP into the sky.

Well...


Spoiler



Its basically a giant EMP. Didn't you see it kill all the sentinels and take out all the systems of the Logos...?


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## mmu1 (Nov 8, 2003)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Oh...someone was talking about why the machines didn't just build up past the sky, and along the same lines, why the humans didn't just fly UP into the sky.
> 
> Well...
> 
> ...




Bah. In that case all you need is a few dirigibles with no electronics to carry the equipment past the "EMP layer", then repair and re-set the electrical systems and start building a utopia above the clouds. 

It's all a load of crap, anyway, the machines survive nukes but don't seem to be able to shield against EMP.

And can people cut it out with the spoiler tag BS? If someone isn't smart enough to figure out a thread discussing a movie has spoilers, they deserve what they get...


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Nov 8, 2003)

mmu1 said:
			
		

> Bah. In that case all you need is a few dirigibles with no electronics to carry the equipment past the "EMP layer", then repair and re-set the electrical systems and start building a utopia above the clouds.
> 
> It's all a load of crap, anyway, the machines survive nukes but don't seem to be able to shield against EMP.




*shrugs* Its called Science-Fiction for a reason. Everything doesn't HAVE to make sense, but eh. I do understand what you mean though, guess I just feel satisfied with leaving it as it is.


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## mmu1 (Nov 8, 2003)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> *shrugs* Its called Science-Fiction for a reason. Everything doesn't HAVE to make sense, but eh. I do understand what you mean though, guess I just feel satisfied with leaving it as it is.




For the record, I don't mind that movie "science" doesn't make sense, I just mind when people try to convince me that it actually does. 

As for it being science-fiction... That label is so overused and inapproriate it's not even funny. Basically, "sci-fi" these days means "high-tech fantasy", and you can hardly find a book or a film that actually has enough real scientifc basis to deserve it. Aside from movies like 2001 or something based on Crichton or Sagan, it's all just fairy tales with guns, robots and spaceships.


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## Zappo (Nov 8, 2003)

The movie was spectacular, there is no doubt about it. The scenery was great, and the special effects were tasteful.

 Much like Reloaded, though, its merits end there as far as I'm concerned... the plot of the first Matrix had originality and a certain intelligence, even if it was plagues by some gaping plot holes (why humans and not cows?). The original Matrix also had several good one-liners that I can throw into a conversation for a quick laugh.

 The second and third movie maintain the high quality action and effects, and worsen all the rest. The dialogue is pompose, not witty: lots of talking in circles and self-referencing, but little actual information. The acting is generally bad (I half-joked that they had to cover Keanu Reeves' eyes so that he could put up a decent performance in the scene where 



Spoiler



Trinity dies


).

 The worst job of all is done with the plot, though. Neither Reloaded nor Revolutions do anything to plug the problems of the original Matrix - in fact, they create even larger holes. I don't care about the shirts of the people in Zion; I could even tolerate them not knowing how to replicate the technology they used. But the fact is that the entire trilogy hings on absurdities and contradictions. 



Spoiler



How is it possible that their most powerful weapon, the EMP, is not ready for use at all times in Zion? Why did the agents want the access codes to Zion's mainframe in the first movie? Why do 5 sentinels almost destroy the ship in the first movie, when a horde of them can't even stop one in Revolutions? How is Neo's connection to the machines maintained without any kind of transmitting hardware? Why would such a connection allow him to remotely blow them up? Why does he have to fight Seraph in Reloaded and not in any of the other two? Why humans and not cows? How could the operator overseeing Bane before he got assimilated not notice that something strange was happening? What's the whole point, seeing that the situation at the end of Revolutions is almost exactly the same one as it is at the beginning of The Matrix? Even the peace won't last long, since the videogame set after the third movie will have to have some kind of conflict. Why would the machines even bother to use sentinels to destroy Zion when a nuke would be more reliable and faster? Especially considering that the humans could have won that battle easily even without the need for Neo, if only they had the freakin' EMP. So what if it disables the other defenses, seeing how effective it is, you don't _need_ any other defense. How did the Oracle's precognition work? Where were the twins when the Merovingian needed them?


And that's just the stuff I can think off the top of my head. Naturally, I could invent several justifications for all of that, but that's not the point. Whatever excuse I can invent, it wasn't in the movie, and leaving explanations out is something you can only do for obvious or irrelevant issues, not for stuff that is the basis of the plot.

 I have a _very_ high tolerance for inconsistencies in sci-fi/action flicks, but with these last two Matrix episodes I am finding troubles holding up my suspension of disbelief, heavily attacked every five minutes or so. Good thing the scenery and effects are spectacular enough to distract me.

 Overall, among "mindless action/scifi" movies (a genre I love, btw) I rank it at 8/10, but among intellectual/sci-fi, well, I think it hardly qualifies.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Nov 8, 2003)

Zappo said:
			
		

> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> How is it possible that their most powerful weapon, the EMP, is not ready for use at all times in Zion?



EMPs also damage THIER equipment, and then they'd be left with MORE machines to attack them without any way to defend. 



> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Why did the agents want the access codes to Zion's mainframe in the first movie?



To ruin the systems keeping the people alive? Not really sure on that one...



> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Why do 5 sentinels almost destroy the ship in the first movie, when a horde of them can't even stop one in Revolutions?



Well, for one, the Neb didn't have extra crew members to man any kind of weapons. Also, they weren't going anywhere, just sitting on the ground. And last...the Hammer just looks a lot more like a fighting ship to me.  



> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> How is Neo's connection to the machines maintained without any kind of transmitting hardware? Why would such a connection allow him to remotely blow them up?



They DID say that the One has a connection to the Source. Neo basically used this connection to destroy the Sentinels via the control of the Source. Beyond that...who knows, its left to be a mysterious thing to show his power.



> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> What's the whole point, seeing that the situation at the end of Revolutions is almost exactly the same one as it is at the beginning of The Matrix? Even the peace won't last long, since the videogame set after the third movie will have to have some kind of conflict.



The movies, at least, seem to hint that the peace will EVENTUALLY end but not any time soon. So I assume that the machines and humans will actually work together. 



> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Where were the twins when the Merovingian needed them?



The more I think about that one, the more I'm starting to think they may have actually been destroyed in that explosion...



> Whatever excuse I can invent, it wasn't in the movie, and leaving explanations out is something you can only do for obvious or irrelevant issues, not for stuff that is the basis of the plot.




Well, consider that the plot of the movies are HEAVY into religion, and point me to a part of the Bible that tells me EXACTLY how some of the things that happened...happened. The Matrix movies seem to be another Messiah style story, and they take it to the point where you are FORCED to think about things and draw your own conclusions in places that most movies wouldn't. Personally, I like that.


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## Tsyr (Nov 8, 2003)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> To ruin the systems keeping the people alive? Not really sure on that one...




My take on that is that it was mostly Smith who was after the codes, not the Machines as a whole... Smith has, from the first movie, been the only program that actually seems to _hate_ humanity. The Architect is annoyed by it, the Merovingian thinks its silly, what have you, but the only one that hates it like Smith does is Smith. It was really only Smith pushing for the codes in the first movie, not the other ones, and when Smith was "deleted", or so they thought, they were all too willing to extract themselves from that situation. I think Smith might have been... non-standard even then, from his desire for the codes, to his hatred, to his... cruelty... etc.


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## Zappo (Nov 8, 2003)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> EMPs also damage THIER equipment, and then they'd be left with MORE machines to attack them without any way to defend.



You don't have to only use one EMP. From what seen in Revolutions, the machines attacked in large waves, but one EMP could take out an entire wave in one shot. It could be argued that the first EMP fired would damage the others - but there are several easy ways around this, such as hiding the second and successive EMPs beyond range. Besides, they could have EMP-trapped the entire path from the surface to Zion.







> To ruin the systems keeping the people alive? Not really sure on that one...



How? You can't hack into anything unless you actually have a physical connection to it, passwords or no passwords. I don't think there's a big cable from surface to Zion, and radio communications don't seem to be easy either. Besides, even if they got the codes from Morpheus, all Zion had to do was to change them.







> Well, for one, the Neb didn't have extra crew members to man any kind of weapons. Also, they weren't going anywhere, just sitting on the ground.



Considering the squid carnage that the Hammer dealt, I reckon a single gunman could have taken care of 5 of them. The crew could have even attacked them with the electro guns when they breached the hull; they seemed to work fine in Zion. Maybe it would have worked, maybe not, but the crew didn't do anything at all except waiting for Neo to wake up, and that doesn't make sense.







> And last...the Hammer just looks a lot more like a fighting ship to me.



Me too.  Still, it's incredible that the Neb didn't have a single turret, and that noone used the electrogun.







> They DID say that the One has a connection to the Source. Neo basically used this connection to destroy the Sentinels via the control of the Source. Beyond that...who knows, its left to be a mysterious thing to show his power.



A connection needs a device to run on. No device means that something psionic/supernatural is going on in reality. That doesn't really fit the tone IMO. Or, there is another explanation that we weren't given (hidden device in Neo's implants?), but since we weren't given it, it doesn't count. 


> The movies, at least, seem to hint that the peace will EVENTUALLY end but not any time soon. So I assume that the machines and humans will actually work together.



I'm curious to see what the Matrix videogame will pull out about this.







> The more I think about that one, the more I'm starting to think they may have actually been destroyed in that explosion...



Possible, but it wasn't clear. They are just secondary characters, no point in making us wonder whether they are alive or not.







> Well, consider that the plot of the movies are HEAVY into religion, and point me to a part of the Bible that tells me EXACTLY how some of the things that happened...happened. The Matrix movies seem to be another Messiah style story, and they take it to the point where you are FORCED to think about things and draw your own conclusions in places that most movies wouldn't. Personally, I like that.



Symbolism in movies is great, and there _is_ some of that in the Matrix trilogy. Unfortunately, there are a lot of things that just don't make sense at _any_ level, and even more unfortunately, some of these things are about the very foundations of the plot.


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## Wolf72 (Nov 9, 2003)

well if most (oops, ALL) the EMP's were based on the hovercrafts ... and bane/smith ruined that, at least I can accept that they had no others ...



Spoiler



heck if they had even 3 ships in dock ... that's 3 waves they could have knocked out before having to deal with them the way they did.

  ... the architect (the oracle seemed to think of him as sort of boob though)seemed fairly confident that the machines would simply win this battle though.


  I wonder how long the battle would have lasted if the fleet hadn't been wiped out.  Especially since the Hovercrafts were almost immune to the EMP's as long as they were shut down ...

shut down, fire it, ... start 'er up, recharge ... repeat process.


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## Stormfalcon (Nov 9, 2003)

I haven't seen the movie yet (probably not until sometime next week), but one thing should be noted.  Ankh (if the abbreviation isn't minded) wasn't talking about the EMPs disabling themselves.  He was talking about EMPs disabling all of the other equipment that Zion was using.  That means the mechs, the hovercraft, any other EMP devices, their own computers...anything that was electronic by nature.  Hence, Zion would be completely defenseless as another wave of squiddies would be sent by the machines.

In fact, if humanity in our world were to engage in a nuclear war, one of the earliest tactics to be used would be to explode warheads at high altitude (about a mile up or so) in order to generate EMPs for the purpose of disabling the enemy.  Vehicles would stop running, electronics would be fried, all sorts of fun would be had before the other warheads hit their own targets.


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## drnuncheon (Nov 9, 2003)

A couple of clarifications that nobody's brought up yet. Both IMO, natch.



Spoiler



Q: Why was Neo able to blow up machines with his mind?  
A: Notice that all the ones he blows up are the 'sentinel bombs' that we saw in Reloaded.  He doesn't blow up any actual Sentinels, just shuts them down.  He doesn't have 'psychic explodo power', just the ability to control their code and tell them to explode prematurely.

Q: What happened to the humans left in the Matrix?
A: _What_ humans?  Watch the final fight.  Near as I can tell, they're all Smith.  The ones in Zion may well be the only ones left.  That would fit with the Christian imagery, too - only those 'saved' survive.


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## Remathilis (Nov 9, 2003)

drnuncheon said:
			
		

> A couple of clarifications that nobody's brought up yet. Both IMO, natch.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



OOH My turn with spoiler quotes.



Spoiler



There are humans in the matrix, they awaken after smith is destroyed, having been cleansed of him. (Witness the exile girl and oracle.) They are there, still asleep and awaiting disconnection.


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## s/LaSH (Nov 9, 2003)

Why did they need codes for Zion? Here's what I think: Remember those giant doors? Remember when 



Spoiler



Zion Command almost didn't let the Hammer in because it wasn't broadcasting


? Trojan Horse tactics. Send in one hovercraft loaded with Sentinels, dock, kill everyone, cripple defences. If you don't have access codes, they don't let you through the big giant doors, maybe they open gun ports in the walls and blow the crap out of you, I don't know.

I still maintain that certain characters had psychic (or miraculous) powers, pure and simple. What did Neo see in the train station? A reminder: 



Spoiler



It was his last journey on the Logos.


How would comprehension of computer code help him see that? It wouldn't, and you can't tell me it could. He's obviously got something else.

All this talk of messianic tones reminds me of a conclusion I came to, however. 



Spoiler



There's a Christ-like figure in the film, all right, but it ain't Neo. It's the Oracle, and it fits on just about every level. Neo just pulls an Arthur, which is a distinctly second-rate death.


 I think the Oracle's demonstrated a profound spirituality, which says some interesting things about the machines...

And someone please remind me: What was the sign above the Oracle's kitchen door? I didn't catch that, and I think it could be important.


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## Starman (Nov 9, 2003)

s/LaSH said:
			
		

> And someone please remind me: What was the sign above the Oracle's kitchen door? I didn't catch that, and I think it could be important.




Know thyself.

Starman


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## Chain Lightning (Nov 9, 2003)

WARNING - - - SOME MINOR SPOILERS MAY BE CONCLUDED FROM READING MY THOUGHTS ON CERTAIN SCENES.
-
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Originally Posted by ASH


> I think that some people really do expect too much from a movie. Its a movie. Did it entertain you..yes or no...
> If not than thats great but it did me, and a lot of other people too!
> 
> But to each their own.







			
				Rugger said:
			
		

> I couldn't have said it better myself.
> 
> And before I saw the movie, I was one of THOSE people...I wanted to have all the answers handed to me on a plate, and for this movie to somehow cure cancer and bring peace to the world.
> 
> ...






I disagree. I don't think art should be so simple. I don't think many things should be so simple. I don't think it should be "Yes" or "No". Its like having a scientist rate the temperatures with just "Hot" or "Cold". There's a reason for degrees. Because its more accurate and close to measuring things.

I can't say , "Yes" and be 100% truthfully communicating what I feel. Its more like "Yes....but barely." That's totally different from "Yes! Absolutely awesome!"



> And before I saw the movie, I was one of THOSE people...I wanted to have all the answers handed to me on a plate, and for this movie to somehow cure cancer and bring peace to the world.




I didn't expect that ever of any movie. I know you're exaggerating...but really. At its core, I want to be entertained...that's true. But we discuss here, the different levels of achievement in these goals.

And I in particular never said I didn't like the movie because there were certain things unexplained. I scored it low because of a many variety of reasons. Bad dialogue, bad editing/or storyboarding, script's inability to provoke appropriate emotional response that a trilogy's ending should have.....etc, etc.

There are parts of a story that you allow to remian mysterious because its the charm of the story. A writer knows when and what to leave mysterious. Let's take the original Star Wars trilogy for example. They introduce bits that they never explain or show. Like 'the Clone Wars'. They never show it in episodes 4-6. They never explain Boba Fett's past. And if episodes 1-3 never ever came out, we'd still be fine with it.

But imagine certain things that ought to have a resolution of some sort....being totally not addressed. I rather have some very important things resolved, even in a way I DON'T understand , rather than not get resolved at all. David Lynch films are good examples of this. Even his weird films, that twist and make your brain quiver in confusion....there's a still a resolution. It may take you years of discussing it late night in coffee houses to disect it...but its there. You saw and recognized it the first time you saw the movie, even if you didn't understand it till years later. Or not at all...just the hint of meaning being slightly out of your grasp. Like maybe some part of Pink Floyd the Wall. Or the ending to Casablanca. Now THAT'S the type of _ 'leaving it a mystery' _
I enjoy. Not, the _'I'm a bad writer and I totally forgot to address this, but it doesn't matter because fanboys are now thinking I did it on purpose and that I'm a genius' _type of _ 'leaving it a mystery'_.   

Now here's the trick. Being able to see which one is which.

In Matrix:Reloaded, Neo starts to develop a little of 'the vision'......which we assume is much in the same vision/ability the Oracle has. He dreams of Trinity's impending doom.  He doesn't know why he's having these dreams until he meets the Oracle and she explains to him (and the audience), that "he now has the vision". Where does this go?

In Matrix:Revolutions, this vision is never brought up, used, expanded on, or anything. Oh...and please don't disgust me by retorting with "the vision is a part of his vision to see the machine world that he develops and also the ability to enter without being jacked in....."  

The vision mentioned in Matrix:Reloaded is plainly the ability to see into the future. Which is never explained how a computer can have clairvoyance. But THAT PART , I don't mind. We are left to assume they use a complex mathematical probability process that is so complex and layered...its much like fortune telling. Us filling in THAT blank is cool. What's not cool, is the introduction of this ability only to facilitate a plot device the brothers thought would be cool. That being...bookending Reloaded with the doom of Trinity and how it is a major cloud over Neo's journey through that middle story. And they are right, that IS a cool plot device. However, to make it work, they came up with an explanation which tags Neo with this ability, but since it was only brought up to facilitate the plot device in the second movie....it doesn't appear at all in the third. In doing that....you've created a 'hole'. A mistake, a flaw in the story. 

Imagine watching Empires Strikes Back and listening to the line, "no...there is another....." 

Then in Jedi....they never reveal who the other is. Leia isn't revealed as his sister or anything. Darth doesn't find out either. She just romantically ends up with Solo at the end. And nothing is ever done to resolve this 'bomb' Yoda threw out in Empire.

Another thing. It's just not holes like Neo's growing Oracle like vision/ability. Its how things were shot too. 

I don't mind not knowing FOR SURE what exactly becomes of the human and machine race at the end. I don't need the Matrix equivelant of the Ewok Celebration to be satisfied. You are wrong in assuming that is what we (who were let down a bit) were after. I was fine with the resolution, I just wasn't fine with how it was shot. No emotional impact for me whatsoever. How odd considering how easy I go on movies. I'm usually the one that comes to friends and say "come on guys, lighten up....you're being too nit picky". But those last few shots were bad. That still shot of the city with sherbert icecream colored sunrise coming up over city....ugh.  Where's the majesty? Where's the famed impressive visuals that the Matrix makers boast? What? No vitual crane shot slowly rising above the city and seeing the city stretch on the the horizon? Just that static shot? C'mon guys.......do something awe and breathtaking with this last shot......something....


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## Kai Lord (Nov 9, 2003)

Chain Lightning said:
			
		

> The vision mentioned in Matrix:Reloaded is plainly the ability to see into the future...they came up with an explanation which tags Neo with this ability, but since it was only brought up to facilitate the plot device in the second movie....it doesn't appear at all in the third.





Spoiler



Actually it does.  In Revolutions Neo has a vision of his future flight to the Machine City, which is pretty major considering its what gives him the idea to go there in the first place and results in the end of the war.


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## drnuncheon (Nov 9, 2003)

Remathilis said:
			
		

> OOH My turn with spoiler quotes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...






Spoiler



Well, the two you mention don't really tell us anything about the _humans_, since they are both programs!  After the 'reboot' we see: a cat (presumably a program), the Last Exile (program), the Oracle (program), and the Architect (program).  No humans.  A remarkable _absence_ of humans, in fact.


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## drnuncheon (Nov 9, 2003)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Actually it does.  In Revolutions Neo has a vision of his future flight to the Machine City, which is pretty major considering its what gives him the idea to go there in the first place and results in the end of the war.




Some more things to consider:



Spoiler



"The Eyes of the Oracle can only be given, not taken."  Smith takes them - and suffers false visions for it.  (Or, rather, he recognizes that he can't see past a choice he doesn't understand - in this case, Neo's choice to continue fighting).  Neo is _given_ them, and sees the truth (because he knows himself, and therefore understands his choice?)

Neo's blinding is also important - many mythical seers were blind or blinded so that they could see things other than this world.


 It would be interesting to look for other things that led up to that that.  I suspect that the Bros. W put in more foreshadowing than we suspect - look at some of the stuff that was only really realized after Reloaded was on DVD, like the car license plates in the Freeway chase.

J


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## Viking Bastard (Nov 9, 2003)

Whoah. That's a lot of blackness.

Anyway, I don't know how good Revolutions is as an independant
movie. But as the final chapter of a 6+ hour movie, it's breathtaking
and very satisfying. Last night, I saw all three movies back-to-back
and it really felt like one big movie. It didn't feel like the original
Star Wars trilogy or the TOS movie trilogy. It didn't feel like a series
of interconnected movies, but as a one big whole. All the pacing issues
I had with Reloaded when it first came out weren't there anymore. As 
a middle part of a movie, it didn't feel like it was slow, but as if the 
film was simply taking a breather.

The Matrix Megamovie gets 8.5 of 10. Very Good.

The Matrix Revolutions needs another viewing to grade. I'll be seeing
it with my dad sometime this week. Expect some more comments then.


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## Chain Lightning (Nov 9, 2003)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Actually it does.  In Revolutions Neo has a vision of his future flight to the Machine City, which is pretty major considering its what gives him the idea to go there in the first place and results in the end of the war.




Please point out this scene for me. I do not recall it. 



Spoiler



I know he has a quick glimpse when meditating in that limbo train station of a the three power coils leading to the machine city, but that's all I remember. I didn't interpret that as using the same ability to see the future. I thought that was him just sensing like 'the heart beat' or 'power' of the source. And thus his ability to get a glimpse of the power lines for a brief moment. As if as he is sitting there...the camera passes over the power lines showing them at that moment,  not into the future. But it is possible that glimpse is a part of him seeing into the future ....seeing the brief part of the future journey Trinity and  he will take. That would indeed qualify as using it in the third movie. Still, it would seem too little for my tastes, just that one glimpse. Even if 'the vision' was dealt with more to my satisfaction in Revolutions....I still have a large list of other things that I thought brought the experience down to a lower score.



But interesting....was that the scene you meant Kai Lord?  Or was there another one? I freely admit that I am quite capable of having a brain fart once in a while. Could've happened during the watching of this movie. Heh heh.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Nov 9, 2003)

DM Magic said:
			
		

> http://www.matrix-explained.com/index.php
> 
> Spoilers and all.
> 
> Natch.



 Eh...reading that just shows me people expected waaaay too much from this movie...


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## theburningman (Nov 9, 2003)

I still don't know if I liked this movie or not.  Since it is taking me so long to make up my mind, I'm thinking it's probably going to wind up being 'not'.

It just didn't satisfy me.  I'm usually the one telling my wife that I liked a movie that she didn't like because "a perfect, happy ending" just wouldn't be good enough, but I have this nagging feeling of being let down and disappointed by this movie.  And I liked _Reloaded_.

It irritates me because, like many others, I feel like there are a lot of points (especially from _Reloaded_) left unaddressed and dangling.  Just see any of the above dissatisfied reviews.  And no matter how many of the rationalizations I read among the posts above, the feelings of irritation and dissatisfaction don't fade.

And no matter what anyone says, it's not enough that this movie had amazing action sequences (I, too, was awed by the battle for Zion, until I began thinking about how easy it seemed to be to kill squidies now, and the flying effects in the Neo/Smith final battle were very cool, but the whole fight just seemed to lack the emotion and urgency that its parallel in the first movie had) and that it was entertaining.  I did find it entertaining while I was watching it, but the reason _everyone_ kept talking about _The Matrix _ long after the neatness of the special effects wore off was because of the literary, religious, and philosophical allusions that peppered the first one and added depth to it.  Not because it was just 'entertaining'.

It makes me sad that I feel like this movie took some of the most brilliantly realized (if not exactly original) concepts that have ever appeared on the screen, and just left me wishing that I had never seen anything besides the original _Matrix_.

(I'm not worried about _Return of the King_, since I already know the ending, but please, God, I'm begging that Episode III will be a better payoff than this.)


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## theburningman (Nov 9, 2003)

> Eh...reading that just shows me people expected waaaay too much from this movie...




Maybe so, and there is definitely some stupid shte on that site, but let me just point to a couple of examples of the kind of things that bothered me. Some of these have already been mentioned, but bear with me.

In _Reloaded_, Neo and Co. go to see the Merovingian.  The directors deliberately show Neo watching a man leave, then mention no more of it.  Fine, I'll wait until _Revolutions_ to see what's going on.  Well, the man in question turns out to be a very nice and polite program who is trying to get his daughter somewhere.  Where isn't clear to me, but it seems to be to other people.  Okay, that's fine, but what isn't fine is that I don't understand why the entire scene with Neo and those programs takes place.  It doesn't seem to advance the plot to me.  I'm left feeling extraordinarily dense, which is not a feeling I'm used to.

Also in _Reloaded_, Persephone demands a kiss from Neo in exchange for her help.  There is an extreme close-up and the whirring Matrix sound effect.  What just happened?  It must have been important for it to be focused on so specifically.  Is it ever explained?  No.  Watch all the bright bullets shooting all the scary squidies, and forget it ever happened.

I don't know, maybe the problem is the Wachowskis just put too much into  these three movies for just three movies.  Maybe they should have done a _Matrix_ television series instead.


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## Kai Lord (Nov 9, 2003)

Chain Lightning said:
			
		

> But interesting....was that the scene you meant Kai Lord?





Spoiler



There was that glimpse, but there's was also the larger version of that vision when he's collecting his thoughts in solitude on the _Hammer._  He tells everyone he needs some time, goes and meditates in a chamber and has an extended vision where the camera is panning at high speed over the surface of the earth and centers on the Machine City.

He then gets up and goes down to the others and says, "Now I know where I have to go."  This is right after the Oracle tells him he'll be able to see into the future but no farther than the choices he doesn't understand.



I thought it was really cool how they did that.


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## Viking Bastard (Nov 9, 2003)

theburningman said:
			
		

> ...but what isn't fine is that I don't understand why the entire scene with Neo and those programs takes place.  It doesn't seem to advance the plot to me.



As I took it, it was to show that the Machines weren't as different from us as we'd like to think.


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## Tsyr (Nov 9, 2003)

DM Magic said:
			
		

> Was there anything after the credits? I was with people who didn't want to stay, so I had to leave.
> 
> If there was, describe it in great detail please, as I will proably not see it a second time untill the DVD is released.




Nothing.

Some good music during the credits, though.


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## Kesh (Nov 9, 2003)

Not a damn thing. I was rather disappointed, too. Sat through all those credits, expecting the Bros. would've put something there... a thank-you from the crew, a cut scene, a "100 years later" scene, _something_.

Nada.


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## Allanon (Nov 9, 2003)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Eh...reading that just shows me people expected waaaay too much from this movie...



 But is that so strange? Didn't you after seeing The Matrix and hearing that it would be a trilogy imagine something bigger, better? 
 The problem is that The Matrix left so much unexplained that everyone just naturally began to fill in the blanks. Everyone had a different version...vision of the movie. And most (yes most) felt something of dissapointment after reloaded...
  And I dare say MOST felt dissapointed (even if only slightly) after revolutions...

 Why? Simple really, the fact that people think that you shouldn't expect anything means that there is a fatal flaw in a movie. I expect *GREATNESS* in RotK. And I will be dissapointed if the movie doesn't live up to expectations, not because I ask to much... but because I ask what they set out and promised to deliver. And the exact same goes for the Matrix Trilogy.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Nov 9, 2003)

Allanon said:
			
		

> But is that so strange? Didn't you after seeing The Matrix and hearing that it would be a trilogy imagine something bigger, better?
> The problem is that The Matrix left so much unexplained that everyone just naturally began to fill in the blanks. Everyone had a different version...vision of the movie. And most (yes most) felt something of dissapointment after reloaded...
> And I dare say MOST felt dissapointed (even if only slightly) after revolutions...
> 
> Why? Simple really, the fact that people think that you shouldn't expect anything means that there is a fatal flaw in a movie. I expect *GREATNESS* in RotK. And I will be dissapointed if the movie doesn't live up to expectations, not because I ask to much... but because I ask what they set out and promised to deliver. And the exact same goes for the Matrix Trilogy.



 Well, I guess my expectations were just different. I was EXPECTING a lot to be left unexplained and up to the viewer to decide on. For me, that just seems to be how the W. Bros work. I also saw the whole Messiah angle coming as it did...it just. Fit. For me at least. Obviously, not everyone agrees on that, but that's the point. The Brothers left it for US to decide what's really going on. They left enough hints and clues, but they didn't blatantly say a single thing.
Like I've said before, that FITS the "No one can be told what the Matrix is" idea from the first movie.


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## LoneWolf23 (Nov 9, 2003)

Short review: I LOVED IT, from beginning to end.

Long Review: I loved it because, unlike some, I wasn't looking at the details; never have, never do, probably never will again. I was trying to do like Neo, and look past the appearances, past the symbolism, to see the Truth.

Because, when you get right down to it, ALL of it was symbolism, from the Matrix to Zion. That's probably why so many people are getting cognitive dissonance trying to figure out how things like the Ships or the Sentinels or the Battery thing work: They're not supposed to. All those things are just symbolic elements containing the greater elements of the story.

And what is the story? Humanity is oppressed by a Inhuman entity that it created itself, one born of dispassionate science. In order to defeat it and liberate itself, Humanity has to go beyond the Machines and get back in touch with higher qualities such as courage, love and hope, not to vanquish the Machines, but to restore a balance of peace.

All in all, comparaisons to series like Utena or Eva are probably accurate ones, as those (and other Anime series) tend to be more about the philosophical content then the apparant story. In Eva, the giant robot battles and the conspiracy theories eventually take a backseat to the deeper spiritual/emotional concepts of "Why am I here?" and "Choose your Destiny".

Look past the appearances, and The Matrix makes sense. As long as you can't see the Forest for the Trees, you're going to be disappointed.


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## EricNoah (Nov 10, 2003)

Saw it this afternoon and was pleasantly surprised -- I enjoyed it a lot.  The stuff at the beginning, I thought, was interesting, and the fight at Zion was pretty amazing.  The end isn't all wrapped up nice and neat, but I found it pretty satisfying and would definitely see it again and will buy it on DVD when it's out.


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## Jeremy (Nov 10, 2003)

I watched the movie, and was only able to make it through about 5/6 pages of this stuff.  So if you are still reading and haven't seen the movie, skip my post.  Cause I don't feel like using spoiler highlighting.  

Went in expecting not to like it, ended up loving it.

Neo entered the Source and because of choices he made ended up fractured between the the Matrix and the real world.  Maybe that made more sense because the Oracle explained it to Niobe in the game, but the end result, being able to sense them through their own hivemind and trigger their own self destruct protocols or just freeze them up was fine by me.

I loved the Oracle and Neo infuriating Smith.  I have two theories on how Smith was defeated.  The Oracle allowed herself to be absorbed to manipulate Smith to where she wanted him to be.  He saw right up until he lost because he couldn't understand the moment and see past it.  So naturally, he concluded he won from the scene he did see (standing over a defeated Neo).

When Neo was absorbed they were very blatant about showing a massive influx of power to him from the machine world.  I figure what the Oracle said of Neo being the positive to Smith's negative combined with the might of the machine mainframe and collective allowed them all to chip in, overload and purge Smith.

I thought Zee hearing Loch's desperate request of the APC commander and bee-lining it for Gate 3 and the actual opening of the gate were great.  Nothing more confusing than outsmarting your foe, cutting off his chances, moving on to more important goals, and then finding out that one little punk kid survived behind your lines to open a door.  Happens in FPS's all the time despite best efforts otherwise and it can be very devastating as it was to the machines first wave.  But then, with unlimited other waves, it hardly mattered.  

I was very satisfied with the ending.  Most people live a much more fulfilling life inside the Matrix than they would outside of it.  Those who can't except it are no longer at such risk as the system now conciously allows for them.

Zion gets to live, and maybe build to some kind of comfort and everyone gets to stop expending resources on killing each other and maybe start doing something to fix the world.  There are all kinds of happy sappy places you can go from there, many of them that negate the need for human batteries, but for the time being, it's practically in their best interests.

I had a lot of fun with the movie both in what it did and what it didn't do.  It never knocked me out of the experience and it even held me in it a little better than say the Two Towers.  The reason the kid is in there so much, and Zee, and Loch and everyone else is to give you a sense of them as people.  That way it's not faceless people fighting faceless machines.

Sure it's convenient that it's those people that do the important things, but think of it this way, 3 movies ago the writers knew who did the saving, so they introduced us to them before hand so we'd have some idea who it was that got there and how and why they got there to do saving.  They were going to do what they did regardless, we just got a chance to see why.

I loved that not everyone goes in for that One nonsense and though Loch came off as jerk he was also right most of the time, and believing in the theroetically impossible is not a luxury he had.  I thought everyone filled their roles nicely.

I liked how stunned Morpheus was and how he had to kind of shoulder through clinging to things he had left and being pushed back to the things he once loved.

But then, I see how that came about because I saw how Loch had misused his relationship with Niobe in the game.

Between the comics, the game, the animatrix, and many other things the Matrix is a story VERY large in scope and there are a lot of things not seen in the movie.

When Niobe said that she could pilot a hovership through a mechanical tunnel, I remembered doing just that.  When Sparks got to be a wise ass and Ghost got his credit as a fine gunner I felt justified in my investment of time in other areas.

When through the history of the Matrix from the animetrix we knew more about Zero One than the principals in the movie it gave me a sense of depth to the story that gave it a right to treat things as seriously as it did.  I thought the movie was lots of fun.


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## Kai Lord (Nov 10, 2003)

Chain Lightning said:
			
		

> Other stuff: the unclear resolution to Smith.



Hi again.  I answer your question here, where we can talk about it without all the black spoiler text:

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1214261#post1214261


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## kingpaul (Nov 10, 2003)

theburningman said:
			
		

> Also in _Reloaded_, Persephone demands a kiss from Neo in exchange for her help.  There is an extreme close-up and the whirring Matrix sound effect.



Maybe I'm going deaf, but I've seen this movie multiple times, and I've *never* heard that sound during the kissing scene.


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## theburningman (Nov 10, 2003)

Well, I've only seen it once, so I'm going by memory.  Anyone else that can back me up?


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Nov 10, 2003)

theburningman said:
			
		

> Well, I've only seen it once, so I'm going by memory.  Anyone else that can back me up?



 I've heard it claimed many times that the noises plays...but...it doesn't. I've watched that scene tons of times TRYING to listen, but there's no Matrix noise...
As for the reason, its actually much simpler than some people want it to be. She's a Vampire for emotions. Just like all the other rogue programs are some kind of creature(werewolves, ghosts, etc), she's the Vampire. She doesn't HAVE emotions, so you 'samples' them from other people.


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Nov 10, 2003)

My review, reposted from my website:

            Thougts and feelings on Matrix Revolutions, with various and sundry spoilers:

 First half: Ho hum. Weren't the squiddies 20 hours away like, 10 hours ago? I'd have to go back to the Reloaded DVD, but weren't they 6 hours away at the end? Anyway, lotsa yakking, although thankfully a little more cogent than Reloaded's yakking. Great BDSM club scene though.

 Second half: Oh my Christ.  *GIANT FREAKIN' ROBOT BATTLES!*  If the rest of this movie had been gay cowboys eating pudding, the *GIANT FREAKIN' ROBOT BATTLES* would have made it all worthwhile.  

 SuperSmith vs. Flying Neo in the rainstorm was very nicely done. Saw some shots that looked videogame fake, but less so than Reloaded's burly brawl. As cool as it was though, it was basically a big slugfest. Not even a very kung fu-ish one at that. I was really looking forward to seeing what two gods could do to each other in a reality as malleable as the Matrix. Compare it to the final battle in Dark City, with Murdoch and Mr. Book basically throwing buildings at each other, stopping each others missiles in mid-air, and redirecting them at each other. Still, as slugfests go, Revolutions was suitably epic.

 The Ending: Having a hard time on this. It was good, but it wasn't what I wanted. It left me feeling a little cold. The best thing I can say about it is I can't think of a better way to end it, but that's the Wachowski brothers' jobs, not mine.

 Don't let my negativity fool you, I genuinely liked this movie. I think it's a testament to what the Wachowskis created that everyone is so contentious about it; everyone feels that it's *their own* film. It's similar to the criticisms leveled at the Star Wars reissues and prequels: "Lucas is ----ing with MY MOVIES!" I'd say any comparison to a pop culture phenomenon like Star Wars (to which the Matrix Trilogy more than holds its own) has to be considered a positive. 

 Will this be looked at the way Star Wars is 30 years from now? Hard to say. After all, the Matrix generation still has Star Wars front and center in their experiences, but people in 1977 had bupkis. That's why SW is so huge in peoples' minds. Is it as good as Star Wars? Except for a much less satisfying ending than Jedi's, I'd say yes. And that's as high praise as you'll ever get out of me.

 Plus, it had *GIANT FREAKIN' ROBOT BATTLES!*

 Revolutions:  **1/2 stars our of four.  The whole 7-some-odd hour Matrix Trilogy:  ****.


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Nov 10, 2003)

*deleted, double post*


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## Pbartender (Nov 10, 2003)

*Matrix Wars: The Programs Strike Back*

My favorite scene of the movie is that last big climactic battle between Neo and Agent Smith...

~~~

*INTERIOR: THE MATRIX -- A SIMULATION OF A HUMAN-BATTERY STORAGE FACILITY*

SMITH: You have learned much, Mr. Anderson.

NEO: You'll find I'm full of surprises.

[CGI special effects fight scene hoopla.]

SMITH: Your destiny lies with me, Mr. Anderson. Morpheus knew this to be true.

NEO: No!

[More CGI special effects fight scene hoopla.  Neo gets shoved back into a matrix human-battery pod thingy.]

SMITH: All too easy. Perhaps you are not as strong as the Architect thought.

[More CGI special effects fight scene hoopla.  Neo super-jumps out of the matrix human-battery pod thingy.]

SMITH: Impressive... most impressive

[Neo lands.  Agent Smith and Neo both strike martial arts combat poses.]

SMITH: Morpheus has taught you well. You have controlled your fear... now release your anger.

[More CGI special effects fight scene hoopla.  Neo is cautious.]

SMITH: Only your hatred can destroy me.

[More CGI special effects fight scene hoopla.  Neo is getting his ass kicked.]

SMITH: You are beaten. It is useless to resist. Don't let yourself be
destroyed as Morpheus did.

[More CGI special effects fight scene hoopla.  Agent Smith cuts off Neo's hand.]

SMITH: There is no escape. Don't make me destroy you. You do not yet
realize your importance. You have only begun to discover your power.
Join me and I will complete your training. With our combined strength,
we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the matrix.

NEO: I'll never join you!

SMITH: If you only knew the power of the programming. Morpheus never told
you what happened to your father.

NEO: He told me enough! He told me you killed him.

SMITH: No. I am your father.

NEO: No. No. That's not true! That's impossible!

SMITH: Search your feelings. You know it to be true.

NEO: No! No! No!

SMITH: Mr. Anderson, you can destroy the Architect. He has foreseen this. It is
your destiny. Join me, and we can rule the matrix as father and son.
Come with me. It's the only way.

[Agent Smith beckons to Neo.  Neo steps back off the gantry and falls into the bottomless pit of the matrix human-battery pod storage facility.]

~~~


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## Allanon (Nov 10, 2003)

Pbartender said:
			
		

> My favorite scene of the movie is that last big climactic battle between Neo and Agent Smith...
> 
> ~~~
> 
> ...



LOL !!!


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## Hand of Evil (Nov 10, 2003)

I was disappointed in some of it.  As for a special effects movie it was good, loved the gaint robot fights (is it time for Mechwarrior?) and the superman fights but the story did not give the punch, which I say was an actor issue, KR sucks and could not make me believe enlightment and understanding.  

 3/5


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## Plane Sailing (Nov 10, 2003)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> Phantom Menace had better plot.
> 
> No, I'm not a "hater," and both 2 and 3 were interesting in a "spectacle" kind of way-- but I'm not afraid to call 'em like I see 'em. The Wachowski's were too clever for their own good and dangled more threads than they could handle.
> 
> Now I have to scrub Matrix 2 AND 3 out of my head to be left with the perfection and satisfaction of Matrix 1-- a movie that needed no sequel. The original Matrix is _diminished_ by 2 and 3 in the same way that the original Star Wars trilogy is dimished by TPM and AoTC.




Wulf, I'm with you here absolutely. I found that story-wise the third episode was the least interesting and least involving of the three. 

The first movie was excellent in all quarters, one of the finest movies I've seen. If it had ended there it would have been perfect. Reloaded took it in an unexpected direction which could have overturned everything, but didn't really when it came down to it.

Lots of action (and the action scenes are good) but... I'll not be bothering to watch this again. 

Ah well.


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## kingpaul (Nov 10, 2003)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> I'll not be bothering to watch this again.



And there you and I differ.  I can't wait to see it again.


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## Plane Sailing (Nov 10, 2003)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> And there you and I differ.  I can't wait to see it again.




That's excellent. I'm glad that you (and others) have been excited by the film; I wish I had been, but that is more a reflection on me than any assertion about the film as a whole.

Cheers


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## Tom Cashel (Nov 10, 2003)

Here is a remarkably cogent and well-thought-out essay by Matt Feeny on why the Matrix series went downhill after the first film.  (I've quoted it in its entirety in case the link goes the way of _Reloaded_ and _Revolutions_.)



> The good news is that the conclusion of the Matrix trilogy, _The Matrix Revolutions_, is not quite as terrible as the second entry, _The Matrix Reloaded_. Reloaded was downright infuriating, with its portentous monologues and willful rejection of narrative coherence. Revolutions, as a thudding sci-fi war movie, is merely disorienting and unfathomable. From the standpoint of the original it is profoundly disappointing, but it does have its own romantic and martial intensity. The bad news is that that, in tandem with Reloaded, it achieves a kind of cumulative badness that will permanently and unfairly stain the reputation of the original. How did something so good go so wrong?
> 
> It seems that, in conceiving their pair of sequels to _The Matrix_, the writing and directing team of Andy and Larry Wachowski overestimated the profundity of the original's philosophical musings. The resulting ponderousness might have been excusable, except that they disastrously misidentified which of those musings was most important to the original—namely, the Matrix itself. In the sequels, the Wachowskis ditched the conceit of the Matrix, the computer program in which all of humanity, save for a few thousand enlightened souls inhabiting an underground city called Zion, is unwittingly trapped. That, in turn, removed virtually everything distinctive and meaningful about the original film—its hipster skepticism, its strangely compelling logic of human striving, and, perhaps most fundamentally, the storytelling discipline that imposed a gorgeous economy on almost every scene. _The Matrix_, it turns out, is nothing without the Matrix.
> 
> ...


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## WizarDru (Nov 10, 2003)

Well, I really, *really* enjoyed it, personally.  After all of the negative buzz, I kept waiting for the film to jump the shark, and to my mind, _it never did._

I admit that when Scorch, dravot and I were walking out, we spent time trying to figure out why some people were so unhappy about the film.  I can easily see how some wouldn't prefer the resolution, but there are some things I think people hold against the movie that have little to do with the movie's plot, and more to do with what it didn't contain: namely very little 'wire-fu' and what dravot referred to as a 'M. Night Shamylan-esque' ending.  Case in point: one of the previous posters linked to a 'Matrix:Explained' rant, and what was one of the headers?  "_Wachowskis, where is the twist, goddammit?_"  Not, "_Why didn't you explain the whole 'humans as energy source' conceit?"_ or _"How exactly did Neo's powers work?_"...but where was the twist ending.  And there was none.  Whether that was a fair criticism or not is left as an exercise to the reader.

I got better than I expected.  I got an epic robot battle, I got Dragonball-Z (live-action), I got some amusing plot twists, I got some standout performances by smaller actors (Bane and Safi's father), I got a resolution and I got a thinking man's action flick.  It didn't work for some folks, which is too bad...but I would see it a second time, and the more I think about it, the more I realized how much I liked it.


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## Black Omega (Nov 11, 2003)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> I got better than I expected.  I got an epic robot battle, I got Dragonball-Z (live-action), I got some amusing plot twists, I got some standout performances by smaller actors (Bane and Safi's father), I got a resolution and I got a thinking man's action flick.  It didn't work for some folks, which is too bad...but I would see it a second time, and the more I think about it, the more I realized how much I liked it.




This is purely a matter of taste, but I've had to put my brain on hold to enjoy the Matrix movies.  Excellent action and SFX.  But thinking about it too much just gives me a headache with the things that don't make sense.


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