# Official ruling on Battlerager Vigor mechanics



## Rogue problem (Dec 2, 2008)

Could someone with authority on the subject and who completely understands how Battlerager Vigor and Invigorating powers work together with temporary HP please explain it to me. I have read countless posts each with a different idea on when and how and how often temporary HP from the two stack or don't stack and work together.

If you could include a rundown of a battle showing the Hp and hits and temp hit gains and losses that is long enough to go through all the different possibilities that would be great.
If I could see how it works I can understand it better.
Thanks.

Hopefully this wont start another 15 page debate on this ha.


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## abyssaldeath (Dec 2, 2008)

You get a THP CON modifier bonus everytime you are hit with a melee or close attack. So if you have an 18 CON you would get 4 THP after you take damage. These THP do not stack just like the normal rules. This will happen Everytime you are hit.

Invigorating powers give you THP CON modifier bonus when you hit with them. These THP's stack with whatever THP you already have. You can only get this bonus once per round no matter how many times you hit or even if you use more then one Invigorating power in one round.

You always only have one pool of THP, no need to keep track of regular or Invigorating THP.

example: assuming 18 con(+4) and 30hp. All attacks are melee.

round 1: 
You get hit for 5 hit points of damage. You are now down to 25hp and have 4THP
You attack and hit with an Invigorating power. You now have 25hp and 8THP

Round 2:
You get hit for 6hp. You now have 25hp and 4THP. Battlerager Vigor THP don't stack so you just use the highest value.
You attack with a normal basic attack. 25hp and 4THP.

round 3:
You get hit for 7hp. You now have 22hp and 4THP
You hit with an Invigorating power. You now have 22hp and 8THP.


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## mach1.9pants (Dec 2, 2008)

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4t...-forked-thread-battlerager-how-does-work.html

This is my take on it


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## Doctor Proctor (Dec 2, 2008)

Most of what abyssaldeath said was accurate, but remember that BRV THP only activate when you're hit with a *melee or close attack*.  

Example:  Assuming the parameters above of 18 CON (+4 mod) and 30HP.

A Goblin throws his Javelin at you in the first round for 7 damage, you will take the damage and gain no temp hp.  So you go from 30hp to 23hp, no temp HP.

You then close with the Goblin and use an Invigorating power, you gain 4 temp hp.  Your total is now 23hp and 4thp.

The Goblin draws a melee weapon and attacks you for 5 damage, dropping you to 22hp and letting you gain 4thp.

As you can see, mixing in Ranged combat does change things a bit.


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## themilkman (Dec 2, 2008)

Bettlerager Vigor sounds more complicated than it is.  Basically, stacking works like this:

Temp HP only stacks if it is from hitting with a power that has an invigorating keyword.

That's it.  That's the only time that it stacks.  Period.

The Temp HP you get when you're hit in combat doesn't stack.  Temp HP that you get from other powers, party members, or anything else, doesn't stack.  The ONLY Temp HP that stacks is Temp HP from invigorating powers.


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## Bagpuss (Dec 2, 2008)

abyssaldeath said:


> round 3:
> You get hit for 7hp. You now have 22hp and 4THP
> You hit with an Invigorating power. You now have 22hp and 8THP.




round 4:
You don't get hit.
You hit with an Invigorating power. You now have 22hp and 12THP.


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## abyssaldeath (Dec 2, 2008)

themilkman said:


> Bettlerager Vigor sounds more complicated than it is.  Basically, stacking works like this:
> 
> Temp HP only stacks if it is from hitting with a power that has an invigorating keyword.
> 
> ...




I also want to point out that invigorating powers only stack if you have Battlerager Vigor. It doesn't stack for anyone else.


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## Rogue problem (Dec 2, 2008)

*Thanks*

Great, everyone is on the same page and it makes sense.   I thought that's how it worked. No more headache


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## Sunglare (Dec 2, 2008)

Bagpuss said:


> round 4:
> You don't get hit.
> You hit with an Invigorating power. You now have 22hp and 12THP.




I disagree with this one. It says Temp HP from invigorating powers stack with "other Temp HP" not itself. You still have to adhear to the rule that Temp HP don't stack. THis is why you should keep them seperated out. 
If invigorating Temp HP just kept going up then it would of been easier for them to say "invigorating Temp HP always stack and are cumlitive. Also this way the class is more balance and not as broke as everybody thinks. 

So if you have a Paladin who uses _Bolstering strike_ and gains temp HP and then next round use _Crushing Surge_ because he multiclassed as a Fighter he can swap out his other at-will at level 11 those Temp HP stack. 
But if he still hasn't been hit by the third round and uses _Crushing Surge_ he will not gain more Temp HP.


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## keterys (Dec 2, 2008)

Sunglare said:


> I disagree with this one. It says Temp HP from invigorating powers stack with "other Temp HP" not itself. You still have to adhear to the rule that Temp HP don't stack. THis is why you should keep them seperated out.




There are no 'other temp hp' and they aren't separate. You have temp or you don't.

The class can stack temp hp from invigorating to high levels, but do remember the bag of rats exclusion.


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## abyssaldeath (Dec 2, 2008)

Sunglare said:


> I disagree with this one. It says Temp HP from invigorating powers stack with "other Temp HP" not itself. You still have to adhear to the rule that Temp HP don't stack. THis is why you should keep them seperated out.
> If invigorating Temp HP just kept going up then it would of been easier for them to say "invigorating Temp HP always stack and are cumlitive. Also this way the class is more balance and not as broke as everybody thinks.
> 
> So if you have a Paladin who uses _Bolstering strike_ and gains temp HP and then next round use _Crushing Surge_ because he multiclassed as a Fighter he can swap out his other at-will at level 11 those Temp HP stack.
> But if he still hasn't been hit by the third round and uses _Crushing Surge_ he will not gain more Temp HP.




The Paladin won't be able to do that because the Paladin will never have Battlerager vigor. Invigorating powers only stack if you have the Battlerager Vigor class feature.


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## Sunglare (Dec 2, 2008)

keterys said:


> There are no 'other temp hp' and they aren't separate. You have temp or you don't.
> 
> The class can stack temp hp from invigorating to high levels, but do remember the bag of rats exclusion.




Yes there are "other Temp HP." Just about everyclass has a way of obtaining Temp HP. Non of these HP stack. You always take the highest value. But Temp HP from invigorating powers stack with Temp HP from these others sources. So if a fighter gains Temp from a Warlord and then uses a invigorating power he can stack those on top of the warlords Temp HP. 



abyssaldeath said:


> The Paladin won't be able to do that because the Paladin will never have Battlerager vigor. Invigorating powers only stack if you have the Battlerager Vigor class feature.




It doesn't actually mention this requirment anywhere. invigorating is a new keyword that just happens to be found only under fighter powers at this time. The only requirement listed for invigorating is that a person be trained in Endurance. If a weapon talent fighter who is trained in endurance uses the Crushing surge power he will gain the temp HP.


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## Mengu (Dec 2, 2008)

Sunglare said:


> It doesn't actually mention this requirment anywhere. invigorating is a new keyword that just happens to be found only under fighter powers at this time. The only requirement listed for invigorating is that a person be trained in Endurance. If a weapon talent fighter who is trained in endurance uses the Crushing surge power he will gain the temp HP.




Yes, they would gain the temporary hit points, however these temporary hit points would not stack with other temporary hitpoints. Battlerager Vigor is the class feature that allows those invigorating temporary hitpoints to stack.


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## abyssaldeath (Dec 2, 2008)

Sunglare said:


> Yes there are "other Temp HP." Just about everyclass has a way of obtaining Temp HP. Non of these HP stack. You always take the highest value. But Temp HP from invigorating powers stack with Temp HP from these others sources. So if a fighter gains Temp from a Warlord and then uses a invigorating power he can stack those on top of the warlords Temp HP.




Yes you can get THP from different sources, but once you have THP where it came from doesn't matter. The only thing you need to do, as a Battlerage Vigor fighter, when you hit with an invigorating power is add those THP to whatever THP you already have. You don't have a pool of THP and a pool Invigorating THP.


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## Sunglare (Dec 2, 2008)

_Battlerager Vigor_: gives you THP if you are hit. There is nothing special about these THP's and do not stack with other THP. This in of itself is a huge bonus, replenshing your THP everytime you get hit. 

_Invigorating_: Gives you THP that stacks with other sources of THP. Follow the THP stacking rules though  and they should not stack with themselves. 
Nowhere is battlerager Vigor mentioned under invigorating. 

Reason why you should keep Invigorating seperate from Vigor THP sources. 
*Con: 18*
*Not seperate*: If you have 8THP, (4 from Vigor, 4 from invigorating) and you are struck for 4 points of damage. THe the player can simply say he still has 8 THP after the hit because he gets 4 from Vigor for getting hit. 

*Seperate: *Same situation but this time he recieved his Invigorating THP after he recieved his Vigor THP. He is hit for 4 dmg, and looses his invigorating THP but since still has 4 THP from Vigor he can't add more leaving him with only 4 THP.


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## abyssaldeath (Dec 2, 2008)

Sunglare said:


> _Battlerager Vigor_: gives you THP if you are hit. There is nothing special about these THP's and do not stack with other THP. This in of itself is a huge bonus, replenshing your THP everytime you get hit.
> 
> _Invigorating_: Gives you THP that stacks with other sources of THP. Follow the THP stacking rules though  and they should not stack with themselves.
> Nowhere is battlerager Vigor mentioned under invigorating.



Try looking in the Battlerager Vigor class feature. _I may have miss understood what you said above. please ignore if I did._


Sunglare said:


> Reason why you should keep Invigorating seperate from Vigor THP sources.
> *Con: 18*
> *Not seperate*: If you have 8THP, (4 from Vigor, 4 from invigorating) and you are struck for 4 points of damage. THe the player can simply say he still has 8 THP after the hit because he gets 4 from Vigor for getting hit.
> 
> *Seperate: *Same situation but this time he recieved his Invigorating THP after he recieved his Vigor THP. He is hit for 4 dmg, and looses his invigorating THP but since still has 4 THP from Vigor he can't add more leaving him with only 4 THP.




I obviously can't seem to explain it well enough so I'm going to stop trying.


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## Thistonius (Dec 2, 2008)

From reading the PHB on THP, and my understanding of it..

You can THP from multiple sources but those multiple sources cannot stack with itself. 

Battlerager vigor, for instance, will only ever give you THP equal to your Con bonus, no matter how many times you are hit.  Battlerager Vigor is classified as one source.

If you get THP from another source, then that will stack with your Battlerager vigor.


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## Sunglare (Dec 2, 2008)

abyssaldeath said:


> Try looking in the Battlerager Vigor class feature. _I may have miss understood what you said above. please ignore if I did._
> 
> 
> I obviously can't seem to explain it well enough so I'm going to stop trying.




Keep trying Abyssal, you make a lot of good points on these threads. 
How would you handle the situation I was talking about before. Player has 4 THP from Vigor and 4 THP from Invigorating. He gets hits for 4 dmg, how many THP does he have left 4 or 8 and why.

FIGHTER TALENT
BATTLERAGER VIGOR
Appears in Martial Power
Each time an enemy hits you with a melee or a close attack, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution modifier (after the attack is resolved).

*When you gain temporary hit points by hitting with an attack that has the invigorating keyword, those temporary hit points stack with any other temporary hit points you already have.* (This does not need to be here. This is the same phrase found under the invigorating keyword listed on the next page. Everybody would get this benefit and it's just confusing by mentioning it under Battlerager Vigor too.)

When wearing light armor or chainmail, you gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls with melee and close weapon attacks whenever you have temporary hit points. This bonus increases to +2 if you’re wielding an axe, a hammer, a mace, or a pick.



Wish I had my books with me. 

(I think I'll just remove all powers with the invigorating keyword to save trouble, this is where everybody's confusion is coming from. Fighter Talent Battlerager Vigor alone is nasty enough.)


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## abyssaldeath (Dec 2, 2008)

Sunglare said:


> Keep trying Abyssal, you make a lot of good points on these threads.
> How would you handle the situation I was talking about before. Player has 4 THP from Vigor and 4 THP from Invigorating. He gets hits for 4 dmg, how many THP does he have left 4 or 8 and why.



Since I can't resist a little ego stroking, I'll try. 

Invigorating powers only stack on top of what you already have. So once they added into your THP pool they are just like any other THP you had. As if you got your current total from one source. Once you've gained the Invigorating THP it wont stack with any other incoming THP because it only stacks with THP you already have not with any THP get. 

In your scenario, the player has 4 THP from Vigor and 4 THP from Invigorating for a total of 8 THP. He gets hit for 4 damage and recieves 4 THP from BRV. He would only have 4 THP because THP from BRV don't stack. If he got hit for 5 damage he would still end up with 4 THP because the 4 he gains would overlap with the 3 he already had. If he got hit for 3 damage he would have 5 THP because already has more THP then BRV can provide.



Sunglare said:


> FIGHTER TALENT
> BATTLERAGER VIGOR
> Appears in Martial Power
> Each time an enemy hits you with a melee or a close attack, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution modifier (after the attack is resolved).
> ...




You do need that line because if you look at Invigorating on page 7 again you will notice that there is no mention to stacking at all.



			
				Martial Power pg.7 said:
			
		

> Invigorating: If you are trained in the Endurance skill, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution modifier when you hit with a power that has this keyword. No invigorating power grants temporary hit  points more than once per turn, even if you hit more than once with the power or use more than one power with the invigorating keyword in a round.


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## keterys (Dec 2, 2008)

Sunglare said:


> Reason why you should keep Invigorating seperate from Vigor THP sources.




That's a perfectly reasonable argument for why you feel it should work that way, and to rule it as such in home games, but that doesn't make it the right answer for someone asking for the "official" way that it works.

It may be that they will errata things to work that way, but I find it highly unlikely as it would require additional tracking that is not really sensical. For example, a character has 2 temp hp, gets 4 from hitting with invigorating (so now has 4), but your way you'd track it as 2/4 so that next turn you could go to 6 instead of 8?

It's more likely they'd institute a maximum amount of temp hp than add a requirement to track in that way. That's probably not a bad suggestion, either, really. Something like 2 * Con.


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## James McMurray (Dec 2, 2008)

Another cap that feels right would be your surge value. There are some ways to get temp hp equal to your surge value, and at least one that lets you get more (Heart of the Titan). So maybe just limiting total temporary hit points to be 1) the amount you gain from a single source or 2) your healing surge value. That way if you've got less than your surge value and use an invigorating power you'll gain some, but if you've got more than the cap you won't. And it won't tread on the toes of any current powers.


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## Obryn (Dec 2, 2008)

Sunglare said:


> _Battlerager Vigor_: gives you THP if you are hit. There is nothing special about these THP's and do not stack with other THP. This in of itself is a huge bonus, replenshing your THP everytime you get hit.
> 
> _Invigorating_: Gives you THP that stacks with other sources of THP. Follow the THP stacking rules though  and they should not stack with themselves.
> Nowhere is battlerager Vigor mentioned under invigorating.
> ...



That's ... not how I read it at all.  I understand the temptation to do so, but really the Rager only has a single "pool" of temporary hit points.

He starts with 30 HP.  Con of 18.

Round 1: He is attacked by an arrow and takes 8 HP.  He gains no THP.  He is also hit in Melee for 8, triggering his Vigor.
He now has 14 HP & 4 Temp HP
He attacks with an Invigorating power and hits.  He gains 4 more THP that stack with the ones he received before, per the class feature.
He now has 14 HP & 8 Temp HP

Round 2: The archer misses this round.  He's attacked in melee and hit for 3.  This drops his Temp HP down to 5.  His Vigor would only give him 4 THPs, but since he already has more than that, he gains nothing.
He now has 14 HP & 5 THP
He attacks and hits with an Invigorating power.  He gains 4 more THP.
He now has 14 HP & 9 THP

Round 3: The archer crits him for 10.  He loses all his THP, and 1 HP.  He's attacked in melee and also hit, this time for 8.  He gains 4 THP from his Vigor.
He now has 5 HP & 4 THP and should probably consider getting some healing.
Instead, he attacks and hits with an Invigorating power.
He now has 5 HP & 8 THP.

Round 4: Both enemies miss.
He attacks and hits with an Invigorating power.
He now has 5 HP & 12 THP.

Round 5: The archer misses.  In melee, he is attacked and hit for 6.  His Vigor would give him 4 THP, but since he still has 6 THP, it does nothing.
He now has 5 HP & 6 THP.

...and so on.

The important things to keep in mind are that (1) The THPs from getting hit in Melee or Close don't stack with any other THPs, regardless of the source; and (2) The THPs from Invigorating stack with any other THPs for a Rager.

-O


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## Mengu (Dec 2, 2008)

Obryn has it.

The only thing I would add to his example is spending an action point in there somewhere to use an invigorating power only to show that it doesn't grant temporary hit points more than once per turn.


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## Sunglare (Dec 2, 2008)

abyssaldeath said:


> Since I can't resist a little ego stroking, I'll try.
> 
> Invigorating powers only stack on top of what you already have. So once they added into your THP pool they are just like any other THP you had. As if you got your current total from one source. Once you've gained the Invigorating THP it wont stack with any other incoming THP because it only stacks with THP you already have not with any THP get.
> 
> ...




Ah Hah, I see the light. Thanks abyssal, told you you can do it.


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## Caliber (Dec 2, 2008)

Edit: I like abyssaldeath's explanation 

The real question is how to make sure any Battlerager at your table actually understands how this all works?


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## Obryn (Dec 2, 2008)

James McMurray said:


> Another cap that feels right would be your surge value. There are some ways to get temp hp equal to your surge value, and at least one that lets you get more (Heart of the Titan). So maybe just limiting total temporary hit points to be 1) the amount you gain from a single source or 2) your healing surge value. That way if you've got less than your surge value and use an invigorating power you'll gain some, but if you've got more than the cap you won't. And it won't tread on the toes of any current powers.



I haven't playtested the Rager yet, but from thinking about it, I don't think this will prove to be a huge problem at all...  Unless enemies are always missing, the Rager is never attacked by missile weapons or Area attacks, and he's hitting constantly with Invigorating powers, there will generally be a cap of THPs around 2x the Rager's Con Bonus. (2.5x for Dwarves with Stoneblood Vigor.)  1x the bonus from getting hit in combat, and 1x from hitting with an Invigorating power.

Against a single foe, or against melee-only foes with no ranged support, it could get very grindy since the THPs translate to DR averaging around 1.5 to 2x the Rager's Con bonus vs. every attack.  (Melee minions become darn near useless in this scenario, too.)  In 4e, these sorts of combats are the exception, rather than the norm.  Ragers can fall to concentrated archer fire just as easily as any other class can, in the end. 

If you track "pools" separately like Sunglare suggests, stack where you shouldn't stack, or forget about the ranged/area exclusions...  Well, you can easily go into Insanity Land. 

-O


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## Obryn (Dec 2, 2008)

Caliber said:


> Edit: I like abyssaldeath's explanation
> 
> The real question is how to make sure any Battlerager at your table actually understands how this all works?



Make sure only rules-competent players play one, and make sure they only keep 1 running total of temporary HPs. 

-O


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## abyssaldeath (Dec 2, 2008)

Sunglare said:


> Ah Hah, I see the light. Thanks abyssal, told you you can do it.




Woot! I wins the internets! 

I'm just glad I could help. I'm not the best at explaining things.


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## Rogue problem (Dec 3, 2008)

*ah glad everyone agrees again*

I don't suspect this power will get too out of control as a hammer wielding Dwarf's to hit was already weak to begin with.  I played one with a 16 str without BRV who was already missing his attacks too often for my liking. With BRV costing a point to hit, he will miss even more and not be getting as many invigorating THP as people might imagine.


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## Bagpuss (Dec 3, 2008)

Sunglare said:


> Reason why you should keep Invigorating seperate from Vigor THP sources.
> *Con: 18*
> *Not seperate*: If you have 8THP, (4 from Vigor, 4 from invigorating) and you are struck for 4 points of damage. THe the player can simply say he still has 8 THP after the hit because he gets 4 from Vigor for getting hit.




NO. Because he has just one pool of 8 THP, not 4 Vigor THP, and 4 Invigorating THP. 

THP do not recall the source they come from they are just one pile. the stacking on Invigorating is only checked as you gain them. Once they are added to the pile where they came from doesn't matter.

So he goes down to 4 hit points, then gains 4 THP from Battle Vigor (but they do not stack) so he still only has 4 THP.

Edit: Seems he's already conceded the point. Although not the first poster I've seen come to that conclusion originally, so perhaps it could have been better worded in MP.


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## James McMurray (Dec 3, 2008)

Rogue problem said:


> I don't suspect this power will get too out of control as a hammer wielding Dwarf's to hit was already weak to begin with.  I played one with a 16 str without BRV who was already missing his attacks too often for my liking. With BRV costing a point to hit, he will miss even more and not be getting as many invigorating THP as people might imagine.




It looks like the concern has mostly shifted from hammer dwarves to normal fighters taking this because the temp hp are stronger than the +1 to hit. I too don't see much of a problem in a build that's designed to miss, even if statistically he's doing more average damage. But if it's so much stronger than the base weapon talent that there's little reason to not pick it, there's a problem.


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## Sunglare (Dec 3, 2008)

Bagpuss said:


> NO. Because he has just one pool of 8 THP, not 4 Vigor THP, and 4 Invigorating THP.
> 
> THP do not recall the source they come from they are just one pile. the stacking on Invigorating is only checked as you gain them. Once they are added to the pile where they came from doesn't matter.
> 
> So he goes down to 4 hit points, then gains 4 THP from Battle Vigor (but they do not stack) so he still only has 4 THP.




Yeah.... this is probably why people don't like to admit they are wrong on the internet. Even after addmitting and showing they understand, people still show to try and explain it to them


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## Bagpuss (Dec 3, 2008)

Sunglare said:


> Yeah.... this is probably why people don't like to admit they are wrong on the internet. Even after addmitting and showing they understand, people still show to try and explain it to them




If you want to admit you are wrong it's usually a good idea to go back and edit where you made your mistake.


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## James McMurray (Dec 3, 2008)

Bagpuss said:


> If you want to admit you are wrong it's usually a good idea to go back and edit where you made your mistake.




Why? Have we shifted into a revisionist society where mistakes are to be swept under the rug? Or would it be better to leave history unchanged and expect people who want to jump on somebody to actually read an entire thread first. It seems to me that expecting others to work to prevent you* from looking silly is a bit egotistical.

* generic "you," referring to anyone that thinks others should edit their posts so they don't accidentally call somebody on something that's already been resolved and reveal their own inability to keep up with the thread.


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## Bagpuss (Dec 3, 2008)

James McMurray said:


> Why? Have we shifted into a revisionist society where mistakes are to be swept under the rug?




By edit I mean add something to say you no longer agree with what you wrote before. Not remove completely. That isn't revisionist, that's making clear your current position.

Also since it was my point he was originally arguing against I though I should offer why I thought what I did in response, I was responding in order, as the points arose rather than skipping to the end, a perfectly valid way of using a message board.


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## James McMurray (Dec 3, 2008)

Cool. I guess I just assumed that's what the multiquote button is for: so I don't look silly replying to issues that have already been resolved.


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## Nail (Dec 3, 2008)

James McMurray said:


> I guess I just assumed that's what the multiquote button is for: so I don't look silly replying to issues that have already been resolved.



Amen.

...and Long Live the Multiquote Button!


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## Nail (Dec 3, 2008)

I note that *all* of the examples posted here start with the battlerager damaged first, _then_ he uses his invigorating powers.

What if the reverse occured?  That is, what if the battlerager first hit with an invigorating power, then got damaged by a melee attack?  According to the posters above, he doesn't get to stack the battlerager THP on top of the invigorating THP.

So...you can stack invigorating on top of battlerager THP, but you *can't* stack battlerager on top of invigorating THP.

Huh.


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## James McMurray (Dec 3, 2008)

Invigorating temp hp only stack with temp hp you already have. Once they've been applied, their type no longer matters because their chance to stack has passed.

A BRV fighter with temp hp (from any source), who gets hit, will not get to stack his new temp hp with his old, because they are not from an invigorating power.

A quick rundown of the two questions to ask when seeing if temp hp stack:

1) Are they a BRV fighter?
no: no stacking
yes: goto 2

2) Is it an invigorating power?
no: no stacking
yes: it stacks with everything you've already got

There may later be other ways to stack temp hp (or I may have missed something), but that's currently all you have to ask when gaining temp hps.


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## abyssaldeath (Dec 3, 2008)

Nail said:


> I note that *all* of the examples posted here start with the battlerager damaged first, _then_ he uses his invigorating powers.
> 
> What if the reverse occured?  That is, what if the battlerager first his with an invigorating power, then got hit by a melee attack?  According to the posters above, he doesn't get to stack the battlerager THP on top of the invigorating THP.
> 
> ...




That's correct. Invigorating only stacks with THP you already have. One way stacking. Otherwise, it would get too confusing (pot, yes you are black). You would have to keep track of 2 THP pools and then would have to try and figure out which THP get removed first.


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## Nail (Dec 3, 2008)

Agreed.

It's just a "huh?" kind of thing.  The order in which a BRV fighter does things matters.  Heck, a BRV fighter should want to go _last_ in the combat round, so no THP are wasted.


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## abyssaldeath (Dec 3, 2008)

Nail said:


> Agreed.
> 
> It's just a "huh?" kind of thing.  The order in which a BRV fighter does things matters.  Heck, a BRV fighter should want to go _last_ in the combat round, so no THP are wasted.




Well, if he goes first he could use invigorating so he won't take full damage from that first attack. Of course that only works assuming an all melee encounter.


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## Nail (Dec 3, 2008)

abyssaldeath said:


> Well, if he goes first he could use invigorating so he won't take full damage from that first attack.



True enough.

The really good "way to explain it" thing I got out of this thread:  THP aren't "typed" once they are put into the PC's THP pool.  That's a key point to remember.


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## Zaran (Dec 4, 2008)

James McMurray said:


> Another cap that feels right would be your surge value. There are some ways to get temp hp equal to your surge value, and at least one that lets you get more (Heart of the Titan). So maybe just limiting total temporary hit points to be 1) the amount you gain from a single source or 2) your healing surge value. That way if you've got less than your surge value and use an invigorating power you'll gain some, but if you've got more than the cap you won't. And it won't tread on the toes of any current powers.





I don't think there is a cap required.   There are purposely no at-will powers with the Invigorating descriptor so even if the Battlerager picked every single encounter and daily as Invigorating there will still be a finite amount of temporary points he can have.   And if the Battlerager keeps getting missed to reach that amount then having them is rather moot anyway.


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## Ibixat (Dec 4, 2008)

Zaran said:


> I don't think there is a cap required.   There are purposely no at-will powers with the Invigorating descriptor so even if the Battlerager picked every single encounter and daily as Invigorating there will still be a finite amount of temporary points he can have.   And if the Battlerager keeps getting missed to reach that amount then having them is rather moot anyway.




Crushing surge is invigorating and at will.


Still doesn't matter in real game play that much.


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## James McMurray (Dec 4, 2008)

Zaran said:


> I don't think there is a cap required.   There are purposely no at-will powers with the Invigorating descriptor so even if the Battlerager picked every single encounter and daily as Invigorating there will still be a finite amount of temporary points he can have.   And if the Battlerager keeps getting missed to reach that amount then having them is rather moot anyway.




I don't know if it's needed either, I was mostly just pointing out a problem with a Conx2 cap at higher levels. I won't be house ruling it until someone proves it to be unfun, or it turns out to be too nasty in play or in a proposed build at our table.

By the way, Invigorating Surge is an invigorating At Will. It's not all that attractive to me, but I haven't run any numbers on it. It just doesn't jump out at me as a fun option.


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## darkwing (Dec 4, 2008)

Nevermind. Everyone seems to understand it now.


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## Vaeron (Dec 4, 2008)

Shouldn't a post titled "Official ruling on blablabla" actually be an official ruling on blablabla?


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## Kordeth (Dec 4, 2008)

Vaeron said:


> Shouldn't a post titled "Official ruling on blablabla" actually be an official ruling on blablabla?




The OP was asking for someone who understands the official rules of battlerager vigor. As there's actually no ambiguity in the text, an explanation of what's in the book with examples supporting it _is_ an official ruling.


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## Nail (Dec 4, 2008)

Vaeron said:


> Shouldn't a post titled "Official ruling on blablabla" actually be an official ruling on blablabla?






Kordeth said:


> The OP was asking for someone who understands the official rules of battlerager vigor. As there's actually no ambiguity in the text, an explanation of what's in the book with examples supporting it _is_ an official ruling.



<laughs>

I agree with Vaeron; there's no "official ruling" in this thread, so the title is misleading.  That said, the discussion among fellow gamers is valuable and helpful, methinks.


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## OsricO (Dec 4, 2008)

Sunglare said:


> _Invigorating_: Gives you THP that stacks with other sources of THP. Follow the THP stacking rules though  and they should not stack with themselves.
> Nowhere is battlerager Vigor mentioned under invigorating.



Not sure if anyone else has corrected this, but Invigorating THP don't stack by default. Part of the Battlerage Vigor feature is that it makes them stack, nowhere in the rules for Invigorating does it say they stack so they don't stack otherwise.


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## the8bitdeity (Dec 4, 2008)

James McMurray said:


> I don't know if it's needed either, I was mostly just pointing out a problem with a Conx2 cap at higher levels. I won't be house ruling it until someone proves it to be unfun, or it turns out to be too nasty in play or in a proposed build at our table.
> 
> By the way, Invigorating Surge is an invigorating At Will. It's not all that attractive to me, but I haven't run any numbers on it. It just doesn't jump out at me as a fun option.





It's Crushing Surge. It's basically an invigorating Basic Melee Attack. I'm playin g a hammer + shield warforged, but not a battle rager. I'm swapping out my non-Tide of Iron At Will for Crushing Surge at level 6 just for an at will to give me some THP.


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## SableWyvern (Dec 5, 2008)

Kordeth said:


> The OP was asking for someone who understands the official rules of battlerager vigor. As there's actually no ambiguity in the text, an explanation of what's in the book with examples supporting it _is_ an official ruling.




Actually, it would appear that there is ambiguity.

I read "stacks with other temporary hp" to mean "stacks with all other temp hp". Many people in this thread read it to mean "stacks with temp hp gained from sources other than invigorating powers".


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## James McMurray (Dec 5, 2008)

That's not ambiguity, it's reading comprehension. Seeing "those temporary hit points stack with any other temporary
hit points you already have." and taking it to mean "those temporary hit points stack with any other temporary
hit points you already have, except for invigorating ones" has nothing to do with ambiguous text.

If I were to say "when you get green M&Ms, they can go into a bowl with any other M&Ms you already have" and someone were to infer that I meant "other M&Ms unless they're green" they're reading too much in to a straightforward sentence. The same is true here.

Is it possible the designers wanted us to track things seperately and intended that invigorating powers not stack with one another? Possible, but unlikely. But even if that's what they wanted, they'll need an errata to enforce it, because it's not the rule that made it out the door.


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## themilkman (Dec 5, 2008)

James McMurray said:


> Is it possible the designers wanted us to track things seperately and intended that invigorating powers not stack with one another? Possible, but unlikely. But even if that's what they wanted, they'll need an errata to enforce it, because it's not the rule that made it out the door.




I've seen a few people mention tracking different sources of temp HP, which seems very weird to me.  Where is this coming from?

The temporary HP section of the PHB is much clearer than many other sections, and MP only lays down one modification of that rule (so far) for BRV + Invigorating powers.  How did this devolve into having multiple pools of HP and all the other strangeness that people have extracted from this?


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## James McMurray (Dec 5, 2008)

I don't know.


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## Sunglare (Dec 5, 2008)

themilkman said:


> I've seen a few people mention tracking different sources of temp HP, which seems very weird to me. Where is this coming from?
> 
> The temporary HP section of the PHB is much clearer than many other sections, and MP only lays down one modification of that rule (so far) for BRV + Invigorating powers. How did this devolve into having multiple pools of HP and all the other strangeness that people have extracted from this?




Easy but very hard to explain, least to say they could of used different wording and made it easy on everybody. They should of just stuck to their main rule of no stacking THP ever.

EDIT: And what Abyssaldeath said below too.


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## abyssaldeath (Dec 5, 2008)

themilkman said:


> I've seen a few people mention tracking different sources of temp HP, which seems very weird to me.  Where is this coming from?
> 
> The temporary HP section of the PHB is much clearer than many other sections, and MP only lays down one modification of that rule (so far) for BRV + Invigorating powers.  How did this devolve into having multiple pools of HP and all the other strangeness that people have extracted from this?




I think it's because some people (me included when I first read it) read "those temporary hit points stack with any other temporary hit points" and miss the next tree words "you already have". Maybe it's they are too excited, shocked or mad, I don't know.


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## Doctor Proctor (Dec 5, 2008)

Okay, there's a LOT of misunderstandings of how this is working here.  It's really simple, but it's being needlessly overcomplicated.

You have Temp HP's that are granted from various sources, one of those being Battlerager Vigor.  Temp HP's do not stack.  So if you have 4 temp HP and you're hit by a melee attack for 2 damage, and you would gain 4 Temp HP from BV (18 CON) then you would have a total of 4 Temp HP since they don't stack.

The only new thing here is that Invigorating powers grant Temp HP that stacks with any Temp HP you already have.  So assuming you have 4 Temp HP, and then hit with an Invigorating power, you gain 4 Temp HP that stack with the Temp HP you already have.  So now you have 8 Temp HP.  Not 4 of one kind and 4 of another, it's just 8 Temp HP, and they follow the normal rules of no stacking _except when an Invigorating power is used_.

So if you have 8 Temp HP from any source and then you get hit for 2 damage, you will have 6 Temp HP.  You will then gain no Temp HP because you already have more temp HP than you'd be gaining.  If you then attack with an Invigorating power, it will grant 4 Temp HP that will stack with the Temp HP that you already have, thus giving you 10 Temp HP.

If you want, here's a crappy analogy to explain how the Temp HP's interact.  Let's say you have two friends, Jack (Normal Temp HP) and Diane (Invigorating Temp HP).  Jack and Diane each give you money periodically.  When Jack decides to give you money he picks an amount and then only gives you enough money to get up to that amount.  If he wants to give you $4 and you have no money, then he gives you $4.  If you already have $2, then he'll only give you $2 to get you up to $4.  If you have $6, he calls you a rich ******* and doesn't give you anything.

Diane, on the other hand, is very generous.  She always gives you $4 no matter how much money you have.  If you have $0, $2, $4 or $6, it doesn't matter, she'll give you an extra $4.  Understand?


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## Obryn (Dec 5, 2008)

Doctor Proctor said:


> Let's say you have two friends, Jack (Normal Temp HP) and Diane (Invigorating Temp HP).



Be sure you get the money from them before they start freefalling.

-O


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## Doctor Proctor (Dec 6, 2008)

Obryn said:


> Be sure you get the money from them before they start freefalling.
> 
> -O




 Free Fallin' was Tom Petty...  Jack and Diane was Mellencamp.


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## DrSpunj (Dec 7, 2008)

Obryn said:


> Be sure you get the money from them before they start freefalling.






Doctor Proctor said:


> Free Fallin' was Tom Petty...  Jack and Diane was Mellencamp.




Right. It'd be more appropriate to talk about getting the money from them while they're living in their _Pink Houses_ in a _Small Town_ on this is _Lonely Ol'Night_. After all, tomorrow is _Just Another Day_. 

*Nail*, it looks like we're on the same page here with this stuff. 

Thanks to everyone for the explanations and examples. Very helpful!


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## Obryn (Dec 7, 2008)

Doctor Proctor said:


> Free Fallin' was Tom Petty...  Jack and Diane was Mellencamp.



Oh, come on.  You know they're the same person. 

-O


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