# Frenzied Berserker+Exotic Weapon Master+ Barbarian= broken?



## Tidus4444 (Aug 22, 2004)

I was just thinking how much damage the Exotic Weapon Master's Uncanny Blow can deal.  X2 strength modifier is pretty huge no matter what weapon you're wielding.  Consider how much strength a Half-Orc 1 Barbarian/5 Fighter/1 Exotic Weapon Master/ 3 Frenzied Berserker can have:
18 (natural)
2 (race)
2 (levels)
4 (stat increasing item)
4 (rage)
6 (Frenzy)
for a total of 36 strength!  That's +26 damage on every single attack this character makes.  So, assuming a +3 Bastard Sword, Weapon Specilization Bastard Sword, we get 1d10+31 damage per hit.  Thanks to the extremely high strength this character has, his attack bonus is also excellent.  +10/+5 to start with.  Add a +13 strength modifier for +23/+17.  The weapon brings it up to +26/+21.  Focus gives it +27/+22.  And Frenzy grants you an extra attack at highest AB, granting you +27/+27/+22.  The vast majority of CR 10 monsters won't even come close to 27 AC.  Those two early ones practically automatically hit, with the last one hitting the majority of the time.  If all 3 attacks hit, you've got a grand total of 108 damage per round.  Not even rogues sneak attacking every round can approach that kind of damage at level 10.


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## Scharlata (Aug 22, 2004)

Frenzied berserker = unplayable as PC 

Kind regards


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## ThirdWizard (Aug 23, 2004)

It sounds nice, until all that damage is coming down on the other PCs. Recipie for death: Trap deaing damage + failed Will Save = dead other PC and possibly more. Especially after stacking all those Good Fortitude/Bad Will save classes together!


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## The Souljourner (Aug 23, 2004)

Frenzied Berserker all on it's own is either really broken if you can get around the whole "attack your party whenever you stub your toe" drawback, or really unplayable if you can't.

Either way, it's not something I'd ever want someone to take if I were in a party with them.

-The Souljourner


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## ThirdWizard (Aug 23, 2004)

Oh yeah, and its really abusable by the DM for NPCs when the drawback doesn't really matter so much. Really really abusable. So far I've resisted temptation.


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## rkanodia (Aug 23, 2004)

A Frenzied Berzerker probably wouldn't make a good leader on a large scale, but a small mercenary army could work well for him, especially one that is self-renewing in some way.  He'd even enjoy just gratuitously killing his own men on occaision.  A bunch of low-level minions (using spells without saving throws or minor magical items that allow them to make some non-trivial contribution to combat - or even just using Aid Another) plus a couple of trolls might make a good combat group for him.  The trolls are used to getting hacked up by him, and there are plenty more mooks waiting at the base.


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## Bauglir (Aug 23, 2004)

> The trolls are used to getting hacked up by him.




"The boss just got himself a new flaming sword?

That's it.  I quit."


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## Tidus4444 (Aug 23, 2004)

EDIT: Double post, sorry.


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## Tidus4444 (Aug 23, 2004)

It's pretty easy to get past the will save thing, I think.  Since my will save is so abysmal, you only need a friendly divine or arcane caster with good DCs to help you out.  Have them  ready an action to cast either calm emotions or hold person on you as soon as the last enemy is defeated- your will save is so horrible you'll almost never make the save (especially since the arcane caster in my case took the vow of peace and has cha up the wazoo- DC 26 will save on hold monster).

And even without the Frenzied Berserker, the EWM's ability is overpowered.  Without the Frenzy, you're only down to +23/+17 BAB and 1d10+25 damage, which is still pretty good.  And those three levels of Frenzied Berserker could be used on some other class.  I don't have my Complete Warrior in front of me, but I imagine another PrC could help make up the difference. Furthermore, if your DM uses the 3.0 versions of the animal buffing spells (most of the DMs I've played for have done this- your mileage may vary), that's around +4 strength right there, more if your friend empowers the spells.  And the boots of haste can make up for the loss of the extra attack (in addition to remedying your AC problem somewhat).  A level 10 character can have +3 Full Plate, +2 Bastard Sword (yes, I know a downgrade, adjust accordingly), Boots of Haste, and Belt of Giant's Strength +4 with 4k gp to spare.


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## Egres (Aug 24, 2004)

If you really want massive damage without the FB drawbacks try the Weretouched master with the bear hybrid form.


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## DemonikWraith (Mar 13, 2008)

So, let's say my DM is an idiot, and wanted a high powered game. So, he let me chose Were-Bear as my race, and then let me get 10 lvls of Barb and 10 lvls of FB...Is he really an idiot?


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## Evilhalfling (Mar 13, 2008)

DemonikWraith said:
			
		

> So, let's say my DM is an idiot, and wanted a high powered game. So, he let me chose Were-Bear as my race, and then let me get 10 lvls of Barb and 10 lvls of FB...Is he really an idiot?




Nope - at that level nigh infinate damage in melee is a perfecly reasonable advantage. (Werebear +3LA+6 HD + 20 lvls) = 29th level. 

At this point the DM is either Blackdirge (a member of enworld known for epic monster statblocks)  or has a limited grasp of the rules and is making up most of the stuff anyway.  

btw. Welcome to the Boards!


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## Zelc (Mar 13, 2008)

Eh, Frenzied Berserker isn't that great.  One Grease spell pretty much shuts them down since they can't make Balance checks while frenzied.  While that's great for preventing friendly fire (I hope your Wizard wins initiative, mwahahaha!), it's not so great against a smart enemy spellcaster.  Oh, and if you have a low Will save for your friends to shut you down with Calm Emotion, you'll also have a low Will save for your enemies who want to turn you against your friends with Dominate Person.

Also, high melee damage < high level spells.  And some mid level spells.

(By the way, you might want to check out how much a Druid in Dire Lion form plus Bite of the Weretiger can do on a pouncing charge.)


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## Rackhir (Mar 14, 2008)

Another flaw with the FB is that they are all offense and no defense. At high levels, it's very, very easy to suck up so much damage that when the FB comes out of the frenzy, he's at minus a couple hundred HP...

At least that was my experience when I ran an 18th lv one shot. The only thing that kept the completely broken and abusive FB/Warshaper alive, was his weapon which healed him for half the damage he did. And that only kept him alive because the Druid kept summoning stuff for him to kill to regain HP.


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## moritheil (Mar 14, 2008)

ThirdWizard said:
			
		

> It sounds nice, until all that damage is coming down on the other PCs.




Everyone else keeps saying this for a reason.


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## Jhaelen (Mar 14, 2008)

Egres said:
			
		

> If you really want massive damage without the FB drawbacks try the Weretouched master with the bear hybrid form.



You are aware of the errata?

To the OP: Frenzied Berserker is broken no matter what. Nothing to worry about, just limit it to npcs.


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## nick012000 (Mar 14, 2008)

It's not broken; it's just one of the few effective ways to make a damage-dealing PC at high levels.

Besides, that Frenzied Berzerker is weaksauce, anyway; I've seen builds that deal over 500 damage every round. I remember seeing a post with a table detailing the optimal level of Power Attack for any given AC.


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## Egres (Mar 14, 2008)

Jhaelen said:
			
		

> You are aware of the errata?



Are you aware of my post date?

My post: 08-24-04

Eberron Campaign first errata publication date 10/22/2004


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## nick012000 (Mar 14, 2008)

Egres said:
			
		

> Are you aware of my post date?
> 
> My post: 08-24-04
> 
> Eberron Campaign first errata publication date 10/22/2004




Ah... thread necromancy. It looks like DemonikWraith was the one who cast that particular foul spell.

Almost four years old, too.


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## eamon (Mar 15, 2008)

nick012000 said:
			
		

> Ah... thread necromancy. It looks like DemonikWraith was the one who cast that particular foul spell.
> 
> Almost four years old, too.




I miss spotting it frequently too .  It would be handy if posts were color-coded according to age, or something.


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## moritheil (Apr 13, 2008)

Egres said:
			
		

> Are you aware of my post date?
> 
> My post: 08-24-04
> 
> Eberron Campaign first errata publication date 10/22/2004




I'm pretty impressed by this response.    

Anyhow, I wouldn't call the FB "weak sauce," but there are more reliable alternatives.


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## jodyjohnson (Apr 13, 2008)

Now that Bo9S is in play a lot of those broken damage numbers from 4 years ago look pretty tame.


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## calighis (Apr 13, 2008)

Bauglir said:
			
		

> "The boss just got himself a new flaming sword?
> 
> That's it.  I quit."




HAhahahahahah


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## Zelc (Apr 14, 2008)

jodyjohnson said:
			
		

> Now that Bo9S is in play a lot of those broken damage numbers from 4 years ago look pretty tame.



The only practical Bo9S high damage combo I can think of requires you to full attack the same enemy two rounds in a row, with very minimal payoff if you can't get the second full attack in (actually, I suppose I forgot about some of the TWF abilities, but those seem equally situational).  On the other hand, I'm pretty sure the FB was responsible for at least a damage record with the ubercharger for a while, before stuff like the Hulking Hurler and Chuck were discovered.  Oh, and Druids make up some of the best melee combatants with Bite of the Werebear .


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## NightCrawler (Apr 14, 2008)

Well 108 dmg on lvl 10 isnt that much anyway.


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## Nifft (Apr 14, 2008)

IMHO the main broken thing about an FB is *infinite hit points*, rather than damage output. That's the bit which has stayed broken across the years.

Cheers, -- N


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## Corsair (Apr 14, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> IMHO the main broken thing about an FB is *infinite hit points*, rather than damage output. That's the bit which has stayed broken across the years.
> 
> Cheers, -- N




FBs can't do much besides hit things while frenzying.  Just solid fog them, and drop some area spells on the fog.  Then wait for frenzy to end.


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## Crothian (Apr 14, 2008)

People get way to caught up in the numbers but D&D is like a complicated game of rock, paper, scissors.  There is always something out that trumps what you are doing if needed.


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## Zelc (Apr 14, 2008)

Crothian said:
			
		

> People get way to caught up in the numbers but D&D is like a complicated game of rock, paper, scissors.  There is always something out that trumps what you are doing if needed.



A game of rock-paper-scissors with the added dynamite option of magic, and the only thing that trumps it is more magic.  Just to be accurate .


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## ardentmoth (Apr 15, 2008)

And gods. They tend to trump magic, until it gets epic.

Even then, Lord Ao awaits those who seek power without His glorious approval.


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## Bloodweaver1 (Apr 15, 2008)

I played a FB character in an epic campiagn and was quite successful. The build I went with was this: [sblock]
	
	



```
Name: Obsidian
Class: Barbarian 3/ Fighter 2/ Warforged Juggernaunt 5/ 
     Frenzied Berserker 10  / War Hulk 1
Age: ??
Race: Warforged           Height: 10' 0"
Size: Large (Huge)        Weight: 4545 lbs
Gender: Male 		  Eyes: Purple
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral Hair: None
Deity: Gir'Kuek           Skin: Black & Purple
Domians: War, Choas, Strength 

Class & Racial Traits:
Barbarian & Fighter       Character Level
Rage 3/day (16 rounds)    Feats: 7
Uncanny Dodge             Ability Increases: 5
Fast Movement             Epic Feats: 1
Illiteracy
Feats: 2

Warforged Juggernaunt
Imunnities: Critical Hits, All mind affects and
abilities (good & bad), Non-leathal Damage, death & 
necormancy effects, ability drain & damage, poison, 
sleep effects, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, 
exhaustion, sickened, healing subschool
Expert Bull Rush: +5 Bullrush
Superior Bull Rush: +2d8+3d6+19 damage on bullrush
Powerful & Greater Powerful Charge: (+3d6)
Armor Spikes: 2d6
Reserved: -5 Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Info, Sense Motive
Extended Charge: +5' to charge
Charge Bonus: +4 Charge Attack

Frenzied Berserker
Greater Frenzy 5/day (16 rounds)
Inspire Frenzy 3/day
Supreme Power Attack (-1/+4)
Diehard, Supreme Cleave, Deathless Frenzy, Tireless Frenzy

War Hulk
No Time to Think
Strength Ability Boost: +2

Str: 36/50 (+20)  Level: 21     XP: 
Dex: 14 (+2)      BAB: +18(+1)  HP: 331 [373] (19d12+2d10+189) [Rage]
Con: 24/28 (+9)   Grapple: +47  Dmg Red: 7/Adam [5/Adam = 150hp]
Int: 10 (+0)      Speed: 25'    Spell Res: -
Wis: 5  (-3)      Init: +4      Spell Save: - 
Cha: 4  (-3)      ACP: -6       Spell Fail: 50%

       Base Armor Shld  Dex Size Nat Misc Total
Armor:  10   +13   +7   +1   -1  +0  +0    30 (24 Rage & Frenzy)
Touch: 13    Flat-Footed: 12

      Base Mod Misc Total
Fort:  17  +9   +6   +32/+34 (Rage)
Ref:   5   +2   +6   +13
Will:  5   +9   +8   +18/+22 (Rage)

Armor              Bonus Dex ACP ASF  Weight  Cost
H. Shield +5        +7    -   -1 15%    -lbs  49,270gp
- Animated
Adam Full Pate +5   +13   +1  -5 35%    -lbs  115,000gp
- Proof Against Transmutation
- *Quickness (+5ft)
- *Magic Eating: When successful save vs spell, regain HP's equal to spell's level 

Weapon         Attack           Damage      Critical Range Weight Cost  
Granite   +44/44/39/34/29    3d8+35 (+2d6)     x3      -   20lbs  200,000gp
    +5 Huge Starmetal Holy Maul of Wraithful Healing
      -Starmetal: +1d6 vs Outsiders (Like Adam qualities)
      -Wriathfu Healing: Channels 1/2 of damage dealt as positive energy back to wielder
 **Power Attack: -1/+4 (-2 Att or more gains +2 Dam)
 **Charge Bonus: +4 Charge Attack & +5' to Speed
 **Powerful & Greater Powerful Charge: +3d6
 **Heedless Charge: On Charge, can assign PA attack pentalty to AC instead

Equipment                   Cost / Weight
Strength Tome +4          (110,000gp / -lbs) [USED]
Permanant Enlarge         (4,000 gp / -lbs)  [USED]
Iuon Stone (Pale Green)   (30,000gp / -lbs)
*Iron Ward Diamond        (18,000gp / -lbs) [x3]    Stackable DR5/50hps
*Crystal of Life Drinking (18,000gp / -lbs) [x3]    Regain 5 hps per hit for 50
Read Magic & Comp. Lang.  (5,200gp / -lbs)  [Head]
Traker Mask               (18,000gp / -lbs) [Eyes]  Gives Scent ability
*Heartseeking Amulet      (3,000gp / -lbs)  [Neck]  3/day Melee attack counts as touch attack
Cloak of Displ., Minor    (24,000gp / -lbs) [Back]  Continous 20% miss chance
Vest of Resistance +5     (50,000gp / -lbs) [Chest]
*Belt of Battle           (12,000gp / -lbs) [Waist] Use charges to gain extra actions
*Strongarm Armbands of    (13,100gp / -lbs) [Arms]  Gives Powerful Build
     Might                                          +2 PA damage when >-2 attack is taken
*Skirmisher Boots         (6,800gp / -lbs)  [Feet]  2/day move >10' gain 1 extra attack
Gloves of Gaint Str +6    (36,000gp / -lbs) [Hands]
Freedom of Movement       (40,000gp / -lbs) [Ring 1]
Ring of Health +6         (36,000gp / -lbs) [Ring 2]

*Magic Item Compendium

Total Gold Spent: 759,770
Total Gold Remaining: 230

Current Capacity: Light (200)
Carry Capacity: Light: 0 – 12800 Med.: 12,801 – 25,600 Heavy: 25,601 – 38,400 
                     Lift: 76,800 Drag: 192,000
Languages: All

Feats: (9) Epic (1)
Adamantine Armor, Cleave, Extra Rage, Power Attack, Improved Bullrush
Destructive Rage, Intimidating Rage, Endurance, Steadfast Determination
Shock Trooper

Skill Points: 50 Max Ranks: 23
Skills                Abil Ranks Mod Misc Total
Climb                 Str   14   +20  -6   28
Intimidate            Cha   23   -3        20
Jump                  Str   15   +20  -1   34
```
[/sblock] Never failed a frenzy check and was immune to mind effects, allowing him to be able to play nice with other players. Wraithful Healing (a 3.0 source) allowed him to hit and keep on trucking. Not completely immune to everything, but immune to a lot of things. The highlight is that it is playable with other characters. 

-Blood


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 15, 2008)

Bloodweaver1 said:
			
		

> I played a FB character in an epic campiagn and was quite successful. The build I went with was this: [sblock]
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 After a quick glance, the build appears to, while in Frenzy, be immune to pretty much everything in the game except Dispel Magic-type effects, which, among other things, make it lose all PrC abilities and become unable to wield its weapon due to the loss of permanent Enlarge (and possibly also dispels the Ring of FoM or the Armour to allow hampering spells or Disintegration).  

Is Wrathful Healing something like a +7 equivalent epic enhancement?  Seems like it should be, but who knows with 3.0.  Using Permanencied spells to qualify for a feat or PrC seems a poor option, though, even if the GM allows it.  They're just so likely to be dispelled, even by accident.


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## Bloodweaver1 (Apr 16, 2008)

My intent with the build was to make it party friendly. I agree that having spells as the foundation for feats and/or PrCs is not the strongest way to go, but that was the only way that I could find in making the character playable in parties.  

I do thank you though for the kind words of the build. I was always skeptical on how solid of a build it was. Also I think Wraith Healing was a +3 weapon enchantment in Sword and Fist.


-Blood


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## VanRichten (Apr 16, 2008)

I still find it funny that it was stated that a level 10 rogue couldn't do that much damage with sneak attack. 

This is the break down.

Race: Half Orc
Class:  Rogue
Level:  10

STR:  26 (+8 Bonus) (20 Base, Belt of Giant Strength +4, +2 Level Bonuses)

Feats:  Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting

Sneak Attack Bonus:  5d6

Weapons:  Short Sword +1, Short Sword +1

Attacks/Round:  4

Assume all attacks landing, all attacks gaining sneak attack bonus, and maximum damage.

Single Round of Attacks

First attack (MH):  6d6+9
Second Attack (OH):  6d6+5
Third Attack (MH): 6d6+9
Fourth Attack (OH):  6d6+5

Total Damage:   damage 172

And if we do 1 level of barbarian and 9 levels of rogue the total damage shoots up to 178.

EDIT:  Changed the weapons to +1 weapons vs +3 weapons to be equal with the OP sense he used a single +3 weapon.  I also included the value of the swords themselves which was not included in my original calculation.


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## Folly (Apr 16, 2008)

VanRichten said:
			
		

> I still find it funny that it was stated that a level 10 rogue couldn't do that much damage with sneak attack.




Lies, all lies. Nothing can do more damage that a two-hand power attacking barbarian.


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## VanRichten (Apr 16, 2008)

Make the following changes to the above rogue:

Feats:  Martial Weapon Proficiency:  Greatsword, Power Attack

Weapon:  Greatsword +3

Assume all attacks include 5 points put into power attack, all attacks hit, and all attacks are sneak attacks.

First Attack:  7d6 + 25
Second Attack:  7d6 + 25

Total Damage:  134

If one level of barbarian is included total damage is 140.


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