# How to Map/Pace a Ruined City?



## Wik (Nov 15, 2009)

Simple question, but one that I've never been able to answer satisfactorily.  How do you convey a ruined city to a group of players in a dungeon-crawl type of play?  Do you map out each building, each street, and so on, or do you instead leave large areas of "empty buildings" and only mark the main areas of interest?

Do you go for the lame route, and suggest that most of the buildings are rubble, and there are only passageways through the rubble, more or less turning your ruined city into a typical dungeon crawl?  

While it's a good, general-purpose question and I'm really interested in hearing responses, I ask for two particular purposes.  The first being that there is a ruined city in my campaign's future (levels and levels away, but it's worth considering now), with the second being that I've been considering games like Mutant Future or Omega World d20, and have been wondering how to do a sandbox-style ruined city "dungeon".


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## Gilladian (Nov 15, 2009)

I have a huge semi-ruined city in my campaign world that I've used several times, and will use again, I'm sure. 

I have an overall map, just like for a live city. It has major routes marked, and the largest landmarks labeled plainly. The PC's get a copy of it for their own use for planning their expeditions. This map is at about 400' per inch.

I have done a few "region" maps of the city for areas I expect to get high reuse, but not street-level detail. This scale of map is at about 50' per inch. I can show individual buildings, but no real fine detail. This level is where I handle things like street chases, group movement, figuring out what can be seen from where, etc...

Lastly, I have specific encounter areas done at my favorite 10' to the quarter inch scale. So far, I've done portions of the grand cathedral, palace gardens, and several sections of buildings.

I do tend to rely a LOT on just verbal descriptions of the areas. I have numerous short descriptions of partly ruined buildings, totally smashed zones, and buildings that are mostly still standing but plainly unoccupied by much of anything.

Loads of random charts help with that, too. Not just encounters, but tables of minor interesting finds in the rubble, minor accidents, little skill challenge-type scenarios where things go wrong, etc... (like "you're climbing over a pile of rubble and it begins to slide").  

Knowing what group(s) of NPCs/monsters control each region of the city helps, and having a list of potential NPC encounters (even if it is just "you see a patrol of yuan-ti coming from several blocks away. Do you hide?") can really make the whole city seem alive.


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## amnuxoll (Nov 15, 2009)

I'm no expert, but I think a ruined city is more like a wilderness than a dungeon crawl.  Give the players a map of the city that has only major streets and a few landmarks in it.  Let them wander about, getting lost in side streets trying to find their way from place to place.  There should be hazards to:  a pitfall, a building that was *this* close to collapsing and finally gives way when a PC leans on its wall, etc.

I also think mood is critical here.  It has to feel a bit creepy.  They should encounter things that aren't quite right:  recent tracks of what look like a street vender's cart in the dust but with no footprints behind it of someone pushing it, a building with no doors or windows, etc.


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## Rel (Nov 15, 2009)

I agree with the posters above in that you don't need to map out every detail.  I think the big questions you should be asking yourself are things like, "What sort of vibe is this place going to give off?" and "What do I want to have happen here?"

Major landmarks or points of interest are enough to start with.  Just flesh in the other bits as they become important.

I definitely agree that a ruined city has a lot of potential as an adventure site and even a rather large chunk of a campaign.


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## Hussar (Nov 15, 2009)

Cartographersguild.org is your friend here.  There are tons and tons of fantastic city maps for use that will cover most of your bases.

But, yeah, ruined city is more like a wilderness than a dungeon.  After all, the PC's aren't really constrained all that much by where they can go.  But, like a wilderness, I'm not about to poke my nose behind every tree I pass and I'm not about to Greyhawk* a city.  

I'd highlight the important bits, plus a few dozen sites you can chuck in wherever and away you go.

* To Greyhawk - to explore in excruciating detail an entire dungeon complex.  Imagine Taking 20 on Search checks every 5 feet and you get the idea.


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## Raven Crowking (Nov 20, 2009)

Bump.


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## Celebrim (Nov 20, 2009)

I don't think there is any single right answer here.  The solution I'd adopt would depend on what I envisioned in my head when I imagined what said ruined city looked like.  

Approach #1: Large basically intact cyclopian city.  This is a 'wonder of wonders' sort of situation, and probably CR 20ish and deserving of some detail.  There might be only one such legendary city on the whole game world.  I'd make a broad level street map.  Then I'd treat this as several smaller dungeons of 9-40 rooms keyed to areas of interest on the map.  Then I'd make a half dozen stock layouts that could be inverted, reversed, kludged together and use them for the majority of buildings.  Then I'd make a wandering encounter table.  This is a major undertaking, and would probably take me serveral months.  Play time would probably be equally long.  You could get lost in something of this size for a long time.  I'd never improv a location of this importance, although you could do it if the players couldn't fly simply by stalling them out in the emmensity of the place until you had time to create prepared locations between sessions.

Approach #2: Largely ruined large city.  Lots of places get swallowed by time.  As above, except that I wouldn't need a street map.  Instead I'd make a 'random find' table indicating minor hazards and points of interest encountered in the course of movement between major locations.  Also, major locations would probably shrink to 3-15 rooms each.  This would probably take me several weeks of prep, and would probably be the hardest to improv because the players have so much freedom and can move right to the points of interest.  If improving, I'd probably try to delay the players by making the city in an heavily overgrown jungle or in a kelp forest (underwater) so that you could literally be standing right next to something and not see it.

Approach #3: There was a city here once.  As #2, but I wouldn't need the dungeons because there aren't really any buildings left.  Most encounters are effectively outlines of rooms or former buildings or simply points in the wilderness with ruins jutting out.  I'd predetermine the location of several points of interest and random up the rest.  I could do this in a week or less.  Depending on how clear my ideas where about this city, I could improv this if I had to because the locations are fairly simple and are produced from fairly simple ideas: a statue, the sanctum of a ruined temple, a fallen obelisk, a king's mausoleum, something lairing in the ruins, etc.

Approach #4: Small largely ruined city.  As #2 except there is no space between the dungeons so I wouldn't need the street map because the dungeons are the street map.  This is basicly a single dungeon of somewhat large size which doesn't have a roof.  It would probably take me a couple of weeks.  I could improv this only be being pretty random about it.


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## Silver Moon (Nov 20, 2009)

Make grid blocks - I've used 3-inch-square sections representing 15x15 feet.   Make 16 total, each with different rubble, walls, etc.   You can then randomly arrange them into a square foot representing 60x60 feet, and since they can be turned with no set north, east, south or west you then have a near infinite number of combinations.  It's also easy enough to track for the DM's map (listing the number and direction of each piece).


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## Stoat (Nov 20, 2009)

I did this several years ago.  I mapped the entire city, down to the buildings, on 17x22 inch graph paper.  I think I used a one inch to one hundred feet scale.  I put the map down on the table for the players to reference.  In my own notes, I divided the city into various zones.  Each zone was occupied by different forces, and each had a slightly different encounter table.  In addition to monsters, each table included various flavorful, neighborhood specific noncombat encounters.  There was one large, set-piece encounter in each neighborhood.  

In play, I gave the players a running description of their location and let them show me where they wanted to go on the map.  It was an efficient way to play, and I didn't feel like the game lost anything just because the players had a bird's eye view of the whole city.


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## Celebrim (Nov 20, 2009)

Silver Moon said:


> Make grid blocks - I've used 3-inch-square sections representing 15x15 feet.   Make 16 total, each with different rubble, walls, etc.   You can then randomly arrange them into a square foot representing 60x60 feet, and since they can be turned with no set north, east, south or west you then have a near infinite number of combinations.  It's also easy enough to track for the DM's map (listing the number and direction of each piece).




Which is a fine approach for a small areas of rubble or terrain, but if your city is a mile or more across, then your overview map is 352x352 to do a direct conversion between your small peices and what's on the overview.  That's like 60-70 sheets of graph paper.   I'd think I'd want to limit my overview map to something poster sized or smaller.

Also, 60'x60' isn't particularly large scale for an outdoor area.  Eighteen of those fit in the area the size of a football field, which is still probably smaller than line of sight in many cases.  

I don't think I'd try to run city exteriors with minatures when you might have initial encounter distances (plains, desert, deserted avenues, seashore) in excess of 400', and turns might finish 80' or more from where they started.


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## Wik (Nov 20, 2009)

There are some really good ideas here.  I really like the one about the grids - that had never occured to me!  As for the encounter tables - I was going to go for something simple, but thinking on it now, I've decided that maybe a bit more complex is the way to go.


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## Jack7 (Nov 20, 2009)

Wik, CB is on the right approach here in one sense. Real ruined cities, or formerly inhabited areas which are then abandoned or ruined, are not just two dimensional fields of exploration.

I vad a lot and have been on archaeological expeditions, so I've seen this first hand.

Depending on how long a formerly inhabited area has been ruined, and/or whether it was then later re-occupied, and/or weather and geographic conditions, a "ruined city" becomes a very 3-dimensional expression of prior occupation.

Some buildings will be for all practical purposes completely wasted or disintegrated, others buried, some only partially buried (large buildings, temples, etc might still be visible or might appear as basically large barrows or mounds - i.e.., seeming like artificial hills - and many structures will later appear to be something they are or were not, until properly cleared and examined, etc).

(The idea of architectural multi-purposing, counter-purposing, and misdirection is an important one when examining ruins - often one's first assumption about prior use will be totally wrong or at least only vaguely or partially correct. This can be easily worked into a game though it is often over-looked. An adventurer comes upon a ruined temple and of course it must be a ruined temple. But was it in fact a ruined temple? If it's a totally alien or dead culture or species, how do you know on first examination? chances are you'll be wrong in such cases.)

Most ruined cities will likely have been abandoned or partially abandoned at one time or another, then re-occupied, modified, etc. Meaning, as was suggested with the sectional grid idea that the implication will be that one should view certain areas of the ruined city as having been thriving at a given period, while others are in decay. This also means that development of the city at any given period will not be homogenous. Construction will be under-way in the forum while the walls are in decay, or a palace undergoes refurbishment while the granaries are burned in a fire. All of these normal developmental processes mean that just as with a human body, different rates of development, repair, growth, decay, and stratification are underway at any given locale at any given time.

You might consider a series of questions related to the background of your ruins in order to better flesh out and enhance your design. For instance:

Why was city abandoned? For how long? Was it ever later reoccupied? For how long? Was it possibly re-occupied by a people different from the original inhabitants? What was the city constructed of (this will tell you basically how it weathered and what ruins are likely to have survived, in what state of decay)? What was the architecture like (did the inhabitants build up, out, down, or some combination of these things)? Did they have readily available resources, food, water, etc, or did they have to import these necessities? What was the major occupation(s), produce, or function of the city? What is the surrounding environment, geography, terrain, and weather conditions, and have such circumstances changed over time (telling you how and in what manner the city has been preserved, or degenerated). How long was it occupied and by exactly whom (cities occupied for long periods of time will have well-developed and distinct stratas of existence, and some occupants are better or more active builders than others)? How big an area did it occupy and for how long? What was the greatest extent of development? What was the median state of development? What was the state of existing technology? And so forth and so on.

A good examination of real world archaeological ruins and techniques will give you a great number of useful ideas, as will a good text of archaeological excavation methodologies. 

But the important thing to remembered is that a ruined city, like a living one, is not simply a 2-Dimensional space, to be examined and mapped merely on a horizontal plane of investigation. Rather it is a very varied 3-Dimensional space, and even a 4-Dimensional space - assuming you or your players also want to examine prior stratification, occupation, and development.

With magic involved it might even be possible to examine the future state of the ruins, or even a future period of re-occupation. In D&D I've done present period examinations and excavations of ruins, past-time or regressive examination of ruins, and even games involving future-time exploration of a set of ruins. Making it a truly active rather than merely passive 4-Dimensional plane of exploration. Leading to a possible set of solutions for your sand-box campaign.

_*But my best advice is do not become entrapped by the idea of thinking of a city as just a 2-Dimensional grid or space.*_ It's at least a 4-Dimensional "Super-structure." So it's useful to map it that way.

Good luck with your design and project.


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## Wik (Nov 20, 2009)

Jack7 said:


> snip




Funnily enough, I was an anthroplogy major before switching paths, and I've done a fair share of archaeology, too.  In fact, I was thinking of adapting some stuff from greek archaeological sites (particularly some of the Cretain ruins) for my ruined city.  

My main concern with this post was, in fact, how to map the silly thing.  I have the location pretty firmly established in my mind.  



> _*But my best advice is do not become entrapped by the idea of thinking of a city as just a 2-Dimensional grid or space.*_ It's at least a 4-Dimensional "Super-structure." So it's useful to map it that way.
> 
> Good luck with your design and project.




Very good advice, and consider it heeded.  

***

I guess I should give a bit more detail on what I'm doing, and how it will be implemented.  

The city is called "The Mazeworks", and was once a series of canyons and grottoes eaten away through rainfall - an arid region of limestone.  The local Minotaur tribes used it as a congregating site for their quasi-religious astrological gatherings (minotaurs, in my world, being very anti-religious).  The Tiefling empire (back before they were technically "tieflings", for all intents being roman-like humans) established a base here, to use it as a northern fort city and trading post, and named it "Kael Tessera".

While there, the imperials had to deal with frequent minotaur uprisings.  Much of their "city" was built over the mazeworks, while the minotaurs lived in the lower levels (which became a lower-class city).  The imperials would descend "into the maze" during the day, but would quickly come back up when night fell, as minotaurs used the dark to go hunting.  So, the lower levels are a mixture of natural caves, the remnants of shanties, and impromptu greco architecture, while the upper levels are built almost like, say, Venice.  Many nice buildings, connected by bridges, with frequent guardhouses, warehouses, and markets.

With the demon scourge, the place was flooded with devils and demons (they are functionally the same thing, in my setting).  The minotaurs fled to the hills, and fragmented into feuding tribes.  Much of the city is plagued by undead (old citizens), devils, and the ghosts of minotaurs.  

The goal of the PCs will be to get to a specific building, while also dealing with a rival (an expedition from one of the Tiefling city-states to the south).  I plan on making this expedition take several days, if not weeks, in a sort of skill challenge.  

I like the idea of a basic city map, though I guess I'll probably make the "maze" portion a skill challenge.  I was thinking using a wide-scale map, and dropping numerous individual buildings that would be so-called five-room dungeons (each giving a clue as to the location of the main building, rewarding exploration).

There would also be random encounters (devils, minotaur ghosts, feral minotaur exiles, undead, tiefling legionnaire squads, various animals and solo monsters, as well as natural hazards and role-playing opportunities).  

The idea of "Street grids" is a good idea for when an encounter happens, as I can just place them together on the fly.  If I do it right, and keep things hidden, it will look as if I've actually mapped the entire city, which could be really cool.  

And Celebrim - I love that "random find" table, though I'm unsure whether I'll factor it into my random encounters table, or make it an individual thing.  I only have a few random find ideas, right now, though.    

Keep the ideas coming!


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## blargney the second (Nov 20, 2009)

WWFOD?  (What would Fallout do?)
-blarg


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## Stoat (Nov 20, 2009)

Who lives there now?  Are there organized gangs?  Lonely squatters?  How do they change or adapt to the parts of the city that they occupy?  For example, a group of devils and Tieflings may turn several city blocks into an armed camp.  Their area is walled off with crude barricades and regularly patrolled.  On the other hand, a tribe of feral minotaurs might simply claim a portion of the maze as their hunting ground and wander through it without settling permanently anywhere.  The edges of their territory are marked with ceremonial totems, but are otherwise left undefended.


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## Hand of Evil (Nov 20, 2009)

It is all about layers and a timelines - first it the map of the place the city would be, then a map of the city before it became ruins.   

What was the cause?  If people just left, was it fast or slow?  If slow there is not going to be much left behind.  War?  Things will be destroyed, buildings will fall placing their ruins in a shape, hitting other buildings.

How long ago?  Life after People a show on The History Channel was great for this.  Land reverts to what it was before there was a city there.  Without maintenance, things breakdown.

I do a combo, you have a path through the ruins, then the ruins have zones, each zone has a dungeon.  All this I spead out on my map where the city was, based on the timeline, I then add a wilderness around the zones.


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## Celebrim (Nov 20, 2009)

Wik said:


> And Celebrim - I love that "random find" table, though I'm unsure whether I'll factor it into my random encounters table, or make it an individual thing.




I love random tables.  The trick is to build enough randomness into the table that its actually useful instead of burdensome.

Random finds are meant to provide structure and place to a setting when you haven't actually filled in all that structure and place.  Effectively you are creating something that looks like a prepared encounter on the fly.  They are meant to supplement and not replace wandering monsters.  You get a random find roll for moving from a place to new place regardless of the time you take getting there.  Conversely, you get a new wandering monster encounter per unit of time regardless of whether you move.



> I only have a few random find ideas, right now, though.




1) *Remains of Former Expedition: Camp site.*  You find a camp site with ashes, empty potion bottles, discarded cotton bandages, painted runes indicating some sort of circle of protection, discarded wineskins, etc.
2) *Remains of Former Expedition: Excavation.*  You find signs that someone was removing rubble, digging, and shoring up loose ruins with logs.  The party can continue the excavation with 1d12 hours of labor.  50% of these go nowhere significant, 10% collapse on party for 5d50 damage unless a DC 20 craft stone check is made, 10% collapse but lead to #3 below, buried in the rubble with x4 normal treasure, and 30% lead to a 5 room dungeon containing a CR appropriate challenge and treasure.
3) *Remains of Former Expedition: Physical remains.*  You find the bodies of an adventuring party.  Most of their gear is worthless or has been looted, but 40% have a minor treasure (art item(s) or magic item(s) worth 2d20x100 gp) which has survived time relatively intact and undiscovered which can be found with a DC20+1d12 search check.  
4) *Remains of Former Expedition: Victims. * Roll on the random encounter table.  The party finds the physical remains of a maximum number of such monster dead among the ruins.  95% of the time all treasure has been removed, but 5% of the time some small object was missed as #3 above.
5) *Remains of Former Expedition: Clue.*  DC 20 search check finds cryptic message scrawled on ruins in random language.  This is clue about some prepared encounter in the city.

For above, you'll need to decide how recent they are.  Some might date back to the time of the tiefling empire.  'Remains of Former Expedition' could probably be its own subtable if you really worked on it.

6) *Evidence of Monsters: Ad-hoc religious site:* Some latter inhabitant (demons, ghouls, minotaurs, tieflings) has for some reason turned the area of the ruins into a make shift shrine.  An scavanged and altered icon of some sort, rudely crafted altar, totems, sacrificial implements, stone basin, strange crudely painted runes and the remains of sacrifices are joined by bits and peices of scavanged artifacts from other parts of the city.  5% of the time a minor treasure can be found here.  50% of the time the area is Desecrated (as the spell), and 25% of the time a minor guardian (CR - 2) gaurds the site from anyone who might defile it.  Wandering monsters are checked 20 times more frequently here.
7) *Evidence of Monsters: Abandoned Lair:* Some inhabitant of the city has laired at this site in the recent past, and the evidence of that (bones of victims, crude belongs, gauno, stench, etc. as appropriate) is evident.  Make a wandering monster check to indicate type.  There is a 10% chance that the monster will return if the party stops to do an extensive search, and only a 5% chance that such a search will turn up a minor treasure.
8) *Evidence of Monsters: Occupied Lair: * Make a wandering monster check.  They didn't find you, you found them.
9)* Evidence of Monsters: Tracks:* Make a wandering monster check.  It left tracks or other spore here.  20% can be tracked to a lair as #8, track DC 20+1d12.



> Keep the ideas coming!




I've got to write some code, or I would.


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## Raven Crowking (Nov 20, 2009)

"You must spread some Experience Points around before giving it to Celebrim again."


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## Celebrim (Nov 20, 2009)

Ok, fine, more ideas:

*10) Archealogical Find: Fresco: *A large fragment of relatively intact mosaic, fresco, or frieze can be found here decorating a wall, well, altar, arch or obelisk.  It depicts a significant event from the history of the city.  50% have some runes or heiroglyphs which accompanies the work that names the event and its major participants, which can be deciphered with decipher script check of DC 20+1d12.
*11) Archealogical Find: Major cultural artifact:* DC 15 search check to stumble across an artifact of significant cultural importance to the people that built the city: a stone calendar, canopic jars, a large ewer, a palanquin, a board game, the implements for playing some team sport, a measuring rod, etc.  5% of these items are magical but investigated prove to do something of no obvious utility to the PCs.  20% of items are rare, and count as a minor art treasure to a collector.  However, if the item is both rare and magical there is a 50% chance that it is a priceless object of art and legend, and worth 100 times normal (2d20x10000!) to wealthy collector of the esoteric and arcane.  A DC 20+1d12 appraisal check is required to identify the rare items from the merely interesting (failure by more than 10 indicates you think a ordinary item is rare), however all such items regardless of value weigh 1d100x1d6 lbs and are thus difficult to transport.
*12) Archealogical Find: Rosseta Stone:* DC 15 search check, you find a fragment of fired clay or stone which contains a portion of the runic language commonly used around the ruins together with a translation into a more common tongue.  The object weighs 1d10x1d4 lbs, but gives a +1d10 circumstance bonus to all decipher script checks through out the city and allows such checks to be attempted untrained.  Multiple stones additive up to the maximum bonus of +10. 
*13) Archealogical Find: Memorial:* A statue or other memorial to a cultural hero is found here, along with a description naming the individual and their deeds (decipher script check of DC 20+1d12).  70% are simply honors, but 15% are associated with a plundered tomb or grave, and 15% conceal an unplundered tomb containing the remains of said hero.  80% of these contains some minor treasure, but 50% contain an undead of CR+2.
*14) Hazard: Dead Zone:*This is the boundary of an area 10x1d6 feet across where the ethereal plane is no long coterminus with the material.  Anyone accidently walking to the boundary of a dead zone is checked and takes 1d6 nonlethal damage.  Once on a dead zone boundary, it is easy to detect its edge.  A DC 25 Know(Planes) check will recognize a dead zone boundary for what it is and what it means. Falling or being shoved into a dead zone forces a living character to make a DC 15 fortitude save or die as the soul is ripped from the body.  The body is instantly animated as a zombie.  If the save is made, the character takes 1d6xcharacter level nonlethal damage.  Although the reason for the empediment might not be obvious to the character, it's difficult to force yourself to pass into a Dead Zone willingly - a DC 20 Will save is required.  Within a dead zone, all creatures are treated as if they were effected by a Dimensional Anchor.   Ethereal creatures are unable to enter a dead zone, and outsiders are generally reluctant to do so.  It is 50% likely that a delay of 1d6x10 minutes is required to go around a Dead Zone.
*15) Hazard: Pit:* A cavity in the ground has been covered by a thin layer of rubble or debris, concealing a 20' pit that requires a DC 20+1d12  search check to notice.  If not noticed, a random character falls in.  30% of these falls lead to a 5 room dungeon containing a CR appropriate challenge and treasure.
*16) Hazard: Green Slime:* The ubiquitous dungeon hazard may be found here in some shadowy place.
*17) Discovery: Holy Ground:* This appears to be a memorial as #13 above, but the hero honored here was a true hero.  As a result, the area 1d6x10' around the memorial is Consecrated (as the spell) 50% of the time or Hallowed (as the spell) 50% of the time.  Characters walking into the ground make a Sense Motive check (DC 20) to notice an unusual calm and tranquility to the place (this gives good aligned characters a sense of well-being, and makes evil ones nervous), and the whole area radiates a faint aura of Good.  Wandering monsters in this area are only half as likely.  Plundering any tomb present here desecrates the site.
*18) Hazard: Maze Trap:* A seemingly innocuous portal actually conceals a portal to a demiplane, dumping the characters into a maze in a pocket diminsion constructed by some long forgotten Minotaur spellcaster.  Noticing the trap requires a DC 28 search check, or a mere DC 18 search check if a DC 25 Knowledge (Planes) check is also made by the same character.  Navigating the maze requires passing a skill challenge.  Retries are allowed to escape, but each contest consumes two hours of time and after each failure 20% are found to contain a CR equivalent foe that was stalking the character party.  80% of the time the exit returns the characters back to their starting point, but 20% of the time they will be in some distant part of the city after escaping (possibly without even realizing they've been plane hopping).
*19) Remains of Former Expedition: Blast Zone* The characters encounter evidence that a fireball, lightning bolt, or other powerful evocation was used here.  Stones are shattered, glass is melted, there are scorch marks, considerable ashes, etc.  If the characters linger for more than 10 minutes, make a wandering monster check.
*20) Discovery: Anti-magic zone:* This is a region 10'x1d6 in diameter where magic does not work.  It is generally only noticable if the characters have ongoing spell effects which wink out when it is entered.  
*21) Discovery: Locked Portal:* The players discovery a substantial portal of metal or stone that proves difficult to open.  It is wizard locked by a wizard of level 2d10+5, has a glyph of warding on it, and runes indicating a circle of protection of some sort.  It's is 80% likely that it contains a 5 room dungeon containing a hazard of CR+2d4 and appropriate treasure, but 20% when opened prove to contain only empty rooms and nothing of apparant value (perhaps looted long ago).
*22) Discovery: Unholy Ground:* This appears to be a memorial as #13 above, but the hero honored here was a blackground of the foulest sort.  As a result, the area 1d6x10' around the memorial is Desecrated (as the spell) 50% of the time or Unhallowed (as the spell) 50% of the time.  Characters walking into the ground make a Sense Motive check (DC 20) to notice an unusual taint to the place (this gives good aligned characters a sense of disgust, and makes evil ones feel invigorated), and the whole area radiates a faint aura of Evil.  Wandering monsters in this area are twice as likely.  Concecrating any tomb present here with holy water removes the taint and wins an award of 500 XP to a good aligned party.
*23) Hazard: Unstable Ruins:*Areas of a ruin prone to collapse are actually fairly rare, as minor earthquakes and the elements tend to knockdown anything that can be easily knocked over.  However, in this area the ruins have been sheltered from the elements and loose stacks of rubble represent a serious hazard.  Detecting the instability before the area is entered requires a DC 20 craft stoneworking check.  Otherwise, a DC 15 balance check by all characters in the hazard area is required to prevent a collapse.  Vigorous activity like digging, combat, evocation spells etc. automatically causes a collapse.  Collapses do 5d10 damage, reflex save DC 20 for half (counts as a trap).   Failure by more than 5 pins the character in fallen rubble, requiring a DC 20+1d10 strength check to extricate.  Digging or other stonework requires a DC 20 craft stoneworking check to prevent a second collapse (which also increases the difficult of extraction by an additional +1d10).  80% of trapped characters bear significant weight and suffer 1d6 damage per round unless that they pass a DC 20 endurance check.  The remainder however can alternatively extricate themselves with a DC 20+1d12 escape artist check.  It is 80% likely that a delay of 1d6x10 minutes is required to go around an area of unstable ruins.
*24) Hazard: Shriekers:* This area is overrun by a large number of shrieking fungi - survival DC 20 to detect and recognize as such.  If the area containing the Shriekers is entered, a DC 15 movesilently check is required by all players or the fungi release a percing shriek.  Roll immediately for a wandering monster.  It is 60% likely that finding a route around the fungi will cause a delay of 1d6x10 minutes.


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## WampusCat43 (Nov 20, 2009)

FWIW, there's an insanely detailed map of Waterdeep here.  12Mb pdf file that shows every single building in a very large city.  Might be good for quick creation of a random area of your city, something like that.


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## Gilladian (Nov 30, 2009)

Here's a direct link to my campaign's ruined city with the bits I've done: Vishteer Campaign / Escruag

It isn't too complete, but it gives an idea of how I chose to do things.


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## dougmander (Dec 1, 2009)

I would argue treating it as a dungeon rather than as a wilderness -- come to think of it, I treat wildernesses as dungeons too. When you're mapping the city, think of each neighborhood, district, or quarter as conceptually equivalent of a room in a dungeon. There are one or more ways in and out. There's a block of descriptive text you read to the players when they first enter the area. There may be bad guys waiting there, or an NPC encounter. There may be hidden stuff you have to actively search for to discover. There may be several skill challenges available that each lead to an opportunity or reward if passed. Without this conceptual rigor, everything tends to feel the same for me and for the players.

I would never think about mapping every single dwelling, any more than I'd write a life story for each goblin in the mob that the PCs are about to hack through. Just a representative building layout or two, and leave the mapping to major structures like monuments, fortifications, marketplaces, and so on.


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## TheAuldGrump (Dec 1, 2009)

blargney the second said:


> WWFOD?  (What would Fallout do?)
> -blarg



Block avenues with piles of rubble that the players can't get over, even though a man with no legs and only one arm could climb over them? (My only real gripe with Fallout - if you are going to block routes of exploration then _block them!_ Having an invisible wall suddenly stop me on top of the pile of rubble is just annoying.  )

The Auld Grump


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## Pbartender (Dec 1, 2009)

dougmander said:


> I would argue treating it as a dungeon rather than as a wilderness -- come to think of it, I treat wildernesses as dungeons too. When you're mapping the city, think of each neighborhood, district, or quarter as conceptually equivalent of a room in a dungeon. There are one or more ways in and out. There's a block of descriptive text you read to the players when they first enter the area. There may be bad guys waiting there, or an NPC encounter. There may be hidden stuff you have to actively search for to discover. There may be several skill challenges available that each lead to an opportunity or reward if passed. Without this conceptual rigor, everything tends to feel the same for me and for the players.
> 
> I would never think about mapping every single dwelling, any more than I'd write a life story for each goblin in the mob that the PCs are about to hack through. Just a representative building layout or two, and leave the mapping to major structures like monuments, fortifications, marketplaces, and so on.




In other words, ZORK it.

Don't actually map the city, but block diagram it.  Each area of interest gets a block, and connections between blocks indicate avenues of travel between them.  At a minimum, each block and each connection should have its description.  Add further detail, either ahead of time or on the fly, where necessary.


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## dougmander (Dec 2, 2009)

Pbartender said:


> In other words, ZORK it.
> 
> Don't actually map the city, but block diagram it.  Each area of interest gets a block, and connections between blocks indicate avenues of travel between them.  At a minimum, each block and each connection should have its description.  Add further detail, either ahead of time or on the fly, where necessary.




Yes. Funny, I was just playing the original Zork last week.


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## howandwhy99 (Dec 2, 2009)

A ruined city dungeon is just like a normal city dungeon, but with far more empty buildings.  They are both more akin to the wilderness dungeon surrounding it than a traditional underground dungeon.  I would start by drawing out the levels of the dungeon with the "deeper" or more difficult to reach quarters as higher level dungeons areas (i.e. 1st level monsters, 2nd level monsters, etc.)  Then populate each region/city quarter with treasure and monsters.  By your description this once was an actual ordered and civilized city, so I'd let that influence the design on all levels.  As with any dungeon, the whole of it should tell a story, a history of the place and what happened there. From the very beginnings of the city to current time.

I assume there will be far fewer rooms to explore too because their is a much smaller population and no real sustainability for living creatures.  But that is an assumption.  You could go heavy into non-living monsters, but the more you put in, then the more we are talking about a BIG dungeon and more of a need for mapping by the Players.  You could also go the route of having dozens or even hundreds of empty buildings/dungeon rooms, but I would stay away from that.  It would be like running Dragon Mountain as published.  Almost all empty rooms gets boring really fast.  I'd go fewer empty buildings and more building debris in the overland room.  

So hypothetically, in abstract form this is going to look a lot like a normal city dungeon, but smaller.  Just think of the Chaos Caves from B2, which is a classic monstertown dungeon design.  Most of those rooms/monster homes are connected even though they don't appear so from outside.  In your case, just paint a different description for those connections sensible for your city.  Say underground sewers or lofted bridges, which invite their own difficulties for passing through.  And don't forget the stuff within them or rooms connected influence each other too.


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