# Blindsense vs Blindsight



## 0-hr (Mar 3, 2004)

It says that blindsense is not as precise as blindsight. Is there any more information on that anywhere? My particualr question is trying to determine if a creature with blindsense can tell exactly which 5x5 square an invisible opponent is in.

I'm convinced that "not precise" means that the creatures can't tell "what" exactly is there, but I'm not sure if he can tell which square that "something" is in. If not, how wide is his margin or error?



SRD







> Blindsense: Other creatures have blindsense, a lesser ability that lets the creature notice things it cannot see, but without the precision of blindsight.


----------



## Camarath (Mar 3, 2004)

Stuff from SRD

BLINDSIGHT AND BLINDSENSE
Some creatures have blindsight, the extraordinary ability to use a nonvisual sense (or a combination of such senses) to operate effectively without vision. Such sense may include sensitivity to vibrations, acute scent, keen hearing, or echolocation. This ability makes invisibility and concealment (even magical darkness) irrelevant to the creature (though it still can’t see ethereal creatures). This ability operates out to a range specified in the creature description.
• Blindsight never allows a creature to distinguish color or visual contrast. A creature cannot read with blindsight.
• Blindsight does not subject a creature to gaze attacks (even though darkvision does).
• Blinding attacks do not penalize creatures using blindsight. 
• Deafening attacks thwart blindsight if it relies on hearing.
• Blindsight works underwater but not in a vacuum.
• Blindsight negates displacement and blur effects.
Blindsense: Other creatures have blindsense, a lesser ability that lets the creature notice things it cannot see, but without the precision of blindsight. *The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature.* Any opponent the creature cannot see has total concealment (50% miss chance) against the creature with blindsense, and the blindsensing creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see.

Blindsense (Ex): Using nonvisual senses, such as acute smell or hearing, a creature with blindsense notices things it cannot see. *The creature usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to pinpoint the location of a creature within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature.* Any opponent the creature cannot see still has total concealment against the creature with blindsense, and the creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see.

Blindsight (Ex): This ability is similar to blindsense, but is far more discerning. Using nonvisual senses, such as sensitivity to vibrations, keen smell, acute hearing, or echolocation, a creature with blindsight maneuvers and fights as well as a sighted creature. Invisibility, darkness, and most kinds of concealment are irrelevant, though the creature must have line of effect to a creature or object to discern that creature or object. The ability’s range is specified in the creature’s descriptive text. The creature usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice creatures within range of its blindsight ability. Unless noted otherwise, blindsight is continuous, and the creature need do nothing to use it. Some forms of blindsight, however, must be triggered as a free action. If so, this is noted in the creature’s description. If a creature must trigger its blindsight ability, the creature gains the benefits of blindsight only during its turn.


----------



## jgsugden (Mar 3, 2004)

You can't tell the exact size or shape (though you would know the difference between a huge creature versus a large creature) of something detected by blindsense, but you do detect location. The detected creature still has full concealment, so I'd treat the effect to how I would treat a blur spell that granted full concelament (without color).


----------



## 0-hr (Mar 3, 2004)

Ya, thanks for the really long cut-n-paste, I've read all that in the books and SRD. Is your point that you are reading "location" to mean "the exact 5ft sqaure"?  That sounds reasonable, but not 100% unambiguous. Still, if that's all there is to go on, then it's what I'll go with.


----------



## Hypersmurf (Mar 3, 2004)

Ki Ryn said:
			
		

> Ya, thanks for the really long cut-n-paste, I've read all that in the books and SRD. Is your point that you are reading "location" to mean "the exact 5ft sqaure"?.




Yeah.

Like a really good Spot check - you can pinpoint the opponent's square(s), but you still can't "see" him.

Unlike Blind_sight_, where you can effectively "see" (ie no concealment miss chance).

-Hyp.


----------



## Camarath (Mar 4, 2004)

Ki Ryn said:
			
		

> Ya, thanks for the really long cut-n-paste, I've read all that in the books and SRD. Is your point that you are reading "location" to mean "the exact 5ft sqaure"?  That sounds reasonable, but not 100% unambiguous. Still, if that's all there is to go on, then it's what I'll go with.



 Sorry about that but you did ask if there was "any more information on that anywhere" I assumed that you had only seen the quote you posted. I do however think that "to pinpoint (to fix, determine, or identify with precision) the location" of a creature is pretty clearly to find exact space occupied by that creature.


----------



## 0-hr (Mar 4, 2004)

Actually, that did help. The MM uses the word "pinpoint" whereas the SRD does not. I agree that pinpoint clearly means the exact square. I wonder why Open Content critters aren't as precise?


----------



## questionmark (Mar 4, 2004)

can a rogue with blindsight sneak atk?


----------



## Hypersmurf (Mar 4, 2004)

questionmark said:
			
		

> can a rogue with blindsight sneak atk?




Yes.  Sneak attacks are prevented by concealment, but Blindsight negates concealment.

Blind_sense_, on the other hand, doesn't, so if you're a Rogue in the dark with Blindsense, you can't sneak attack.

-Hyp.


----------



## questionmark (Mar 4, 2004)

wow, who knew smurfs could be cool and informative!


----------



## Camarath (Mar 4, 2004)

Ki Ryn said:
			
		

> Actually, that did help. The MM uses the word "pinpoint" whereas the SRD does not. I agree that pinpoint clearly means the exact square. I wonder why Open Content critters aren't as precise?



The second Blindsense of entry is from the Types, Subtypes, and Special Abilities section of the SRD which basicly the MM glossary.


----------



## Ryan Shepherd (Sep 10, 2017)

you're all wrong. idk where D&D wiki got their info but the fcking creator of the rules said on twitter that you can hide from Blindsight if you're behind cover. And in the rules all it says is you can still see while blinded. its basically just the ability to see through eyelids or magically with an unblindable pair of eyes.

Blindsense is generally MUCH more reduced in range, but tells you the exact location of any creature in your blinsense range. even behind cover.

This is 5th edition ruling. The information on D&D wiki is from an older edition.


----------



## Joseph Taylor1 (Sep 30, 2017)

This question was from 13 years ago, so yeah they are referring to 3.5 and their information is correct. (Sorry for the extended thread necromancy, just thought I'd get that straight)


----------

