# Archery Character - Ranger or Fighter?



## tylermalan (Jul 11, 2011)

I've seen a few threads about archery in Pathfinder, but I wanted to just come out and ask the masses:

Which is the better class if you want your character to hold a bow or crossbow in his hand until the day that he dies:  Ranger or Fighter?

Bonus Question:  Does your answer change depending on the choice of bow or crossbow?


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## Kaiyanwang (Jul 11, 2011)

Crossbows are mechanically inferior to bows. I think it does not change from one class to another. The only exception is sniping with a double one (combo with deadly stroke) - in this case the fighter is more suitable for the feats needed.

I see the issue in this way:

Mobile Heavy Fire Platform: Fighter

Mobile Fire + Control Platform: Archer Fighter in APG.

Skirmisher/SkillMonkery capable of heavy fire: Ranger

Skirmisher/Flanker capable of good sniping and decent fire rate: Ranger

So is not a matter of better and worse, class-wise, but of what you want to obtain.

You cannot match fighters in damage, but rangers have companions (and they can be very different and differently built), skills, and better defenses. And the damage is high anyway, expecially with te instant enemy spell.


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## SteelDraco (Jul 12, 2011)

Mechanically, I don't think crossbows are ever worth it. You can't get a Strength crossbow like you can with a bow, and that's a huge problem. The reloading limitations are even worse. They'd have to be significantly better than a bow per shot to be worth it, and they're not.

I agree with Kaiyanwang - which is better depends on what you want to do. Straight damage output, go with a fighter. If you want to do more than just shoot a bow, I'd recommend ranger - they're significantly more flexible at a relatively minor cost to damage.

Rangers don't have any way to gain access to the Archer archetype's ability to perform combat maneuvers at range. That kinda stinks - I'd like to have my ranger/arcane archer disarm people or pin them to things (grapple attempts at range).

For everything else, I think the ranger is a better choice, especially if you're going to be in a wilderness area. The skills and spells are useful if you prepare properly. Favored Enemy obviously isn't as good as the Expert Archer in terms of damage output, since it's more situational, but FE applies to more than just attack and damage. Obviously, the feats help, especially once you can start taking Critical Focus feats, since an archer is going to pump out more attacks in a round than most melee characters. My arcane archer is already doing some very good damage at 8th level, probably the highest in the party, even more so if I use Ranger's Focus from the Guide archetype. He's a Ranger6/Wizard1/Arcane Archer1 right now.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jul 12, 2011)

Fighers are better at it, Rangers get extra stuff that has nothing to do with archery to make up the difference.  Rangers instantly become better, though, if your DM is of the school of thought that you need a DC 50 perception check to see creatures 500 ft away.  Then again, in that scenario, I'd avoid playing an archer at all.

I will say, though, Rangers getting certain feats (namely Improved Precise Shot at level 6) IS pretty sweet.

As far as crossbows... the Crossbow Master feat more than level the playing field, and I <3 higher crit threat range over higher multiplier, so I think crossbows have a place.  Definitely more feat intensive, but that's not a problem for classes with bonus feats.


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## DragonBelow (Jul 12, 2011)

*Neither*

Zen Archer Monk (APG archetype) is the best option:

1) Flurry with your bow
2) Doesn't provoke AoO from adjacent enemies starting at level 3

That's the way point blank shot was meant to be used 

Now this is not based on any number crunching madness, I just think it's very cool to be able to use your bow while other characters threaten you in melee.  Have not thought about what to do against Sunder.


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## Dingo333 (Jul 12, 2011)

for sheer "shot the fly out from between it's wings" the fighter wins.

More feats means more bonuses faster.

If you wanna do anything else and archery, ranger wins, especially in the wild where they can get food for the party

Gravity Bow also helps with leveling between ranger and fighter (my 2d6 long bow vs your 1d8 long bow)

I also have to agree with the zen archer idea, eventually reaching 2d10 compared with the 2d6 for the ranger and 1d8 of the fighter.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jul 12, 2011)

DragonBelow said:


> Zen Archer Monk (APG archetype) is the best option:
> 
> 1) Flurry with your bow
> 2) Doesn't provoke AoO from adjacent enemies starting at level 3
> ...




Fighters can get Point Blank Master at level 4, though practically speaking, they're getting it at level 5.  Rangers can get PBM at level 6.  So Zen Archer just gets a few levels jumpon them.  In return, he loses out on HD and BAB, and compared to Fighter feats and compared to Ranger skills and spells and an extra set of actions per round (also known as an "animal companion".)

I played a Zen Archer from levels 2-7, which is the range where they're really at their best, if you look at the class features.  I was still only on par with the archer Ranger in the party (we had 8 players, we could afford redundancy).  I had slightly better attack and damage per round, he was better at...everything else.  And really, post level 6...you're done getting good class features.  I would've GLADLY traded for normal monk's assortment for levels 7-20, even though some of it has no use with archery, the mid/high level Zen Archer benefits are just that bad.

Flurry with your bow is just Rapid Shot by a different name, except it's not as good because you can't take Manyshot with it, and even though you're *shooting* at full BAB, you don't count as having it, which makes it a pain to meet pre-reqs on occasion and really shoehorns you into a boring routine of only ever full attacking unless it's an absolute necessity not to, even more so than a typical archer.

EDIT: I'm criticizing Zen Archer, but don't get me wrong.  It works fine for what it does.  It's just IMo inferior to Fighter and Ranger, and by far the most narrowly focused and thus boring.


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## tylermalan (Jul 12, 2011)

Alright, so, to play devil's advocate a bit on this...

Let's consider this a 15 point buy character who obviously wants a high dexterity.  He can't put a lot of points into strength, which limits the effectiveness of composite bows.  Is your answer the same in this situation?

Further, what about the Crossbowman archetype for the fighter from the APG?  It gives an ability at 3rd level called Deadshot that allows the fighter to add half of his dexterity modifier to damage rolls made with a crossbow.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jul 12, 2011)

Frankly, I think bow or crossbow Fighter is better off using Mobile Fighter variant instead.  Or if your DM nerfs the whole "they still get Weapon Training 2-4" thing, still do Mobility or any Fighter that gets the first two armor trainings.  I hate that the archer and xbow fighters lose all armor trainings.  How dumb is that to take a guy that wants high dex and take away the class feature that lets him get more dex out of his armor?


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## concerro (Jul 13, 2011)

Dingo333 said:


> for sheer "shot the fly out from between it's wings" the fighter wins.
> 
> More feats means more bonuses faster.
> 
> ...



When you flurry with a monk weapon your unarmed strike damage does not apply to the weapon.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jul 13, 2011)

You can spend a swift action and a ki point to make your arrows do damage equal to unarmed strike, it's a unique ability of the Zen Archer Monk.  This doesn't even produce a benefit till level 10 or so and won't be doing 2d10 till near epic.  Even then, I think it's more worth it to use that swift and ki point for an extra attack over unarmed damage.


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## Dingo333 (Jul 13, 2011)

Let me spell it out to you this way, fighter/ranger vs zen archer monk

level 1   BAB          DMG
F/R        +1           1d8 long bow
ZA       -1/-1         1d8

Level 5
F/R     +4/+4          1d8
ZA      +3/+3          1d8

level 8
F/R      +6/+6/+1     1d8
ZA      +6/+6/+1/+1 1d10

Level 10
F/R      +8/+8/+3      1d8
ZA       +8/+8/+3/+3 1d10

Level 15
F/R       +13/+13/+8/+3             1d8
ZA        +13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3    2d6

Level 20
F/R       +18/+18/+13/+8/+3               1d8
ZA        +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3    2d10


yes, you can argue the ranger has had 2d6 since level 4
yes, the fighter gets greater focus and greater specialization

But the Zen Archer, after level 8, gets 1-2 more shots a full attack, higher bonuses on 1 of the attacks and has higher damage.
Not to mention, if you are large (via an enlarge person potion for example) you are doing even more which nulls the ranger spell and makes final damage 4d8 a shot at level 20

you do not need rapid shot for the Zen Archer as flurry comes and improves on it. Many shot is a seperate story, but I still feel the monk wins out over all


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## VanceMadrox (Jul 13, 2011)

Using a Ki point for an extra attack basically evens out with Many shot.

So as long as you have a KI point to spend you can even out the difference with Many Shot.

Of Course then you can't use it to increase your damage to your unarmed damage though as you only get 1 swift action per round.

Even without the extra attack from KI at 15th and higher a Monk has more shots than either Ranger or Fighter, it's manyshot versus 2 extra attacks from flurry.


The other real big advantage of Zen Archer though is that it splits your attack stat off to a mental stat.

You can boost both attack and damage without having to stack both onto the same item. A big cost savings.


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## Victim (Jul 17, 2011)

Getting the extra attack from Ki and the unarmed strike damage are both swift actions; they can't be combined.

Moreover, if you're including limited use class features for the monk, why the heck are you not including fighter class features?   At level 10 on your chart, for instance, Weapon Training 2 more than makes up for the slightly lower damage die (1d8+2 > 1d10) in terms of pure damage.  At level 15, Weapon Training 3 on the d8 bow is still a bit ahead of 2d6.  And that's completely ignoring feats; Monk only has an advantage with 2d10 versus just Weapon Training bonus.  Damage is damage, whether it's coming from dice or bonuses.

Doing some rough calculations assuming the monk and fighter each have the same attack stats, if the fighter needs a 10 to hit with rapid shot at level 14, he gets 1.45 hits per full attack, and Many Shot means the first shot counts twice (I think everything the fighter has adds again, so the only loss is from potential critical damage), so that's 2 full hits worth of damage.  The monk is 3 points behind from Weapon Training, and thus needs 13.  Using Ki for an extra attack with his flurry, the monk ends up with 1.55 hits per full attack.  Since the fighter should be able to do at least as much damage per hit with better Weapon Spec access and Weapon Training, the fighter should be ahead.  Similarly, if the fighter needs a 5 to hit, he ends up with 2.45/3.25 hits, while the monk ends up with 2.85 hits.

So the fighter is getting more hits even with the monk using ki points.  However, I ignored criticals - the monk's extra attacks give it more chances for a crit (especially since Many Shot can't crit), but the fighter's sheer number of feats and base attack allow it to get critical boosting feats easily.  Plus I think the I slighted the fighter his bonus from Greater Focus.

Having the extra class attack bonus really matters - and if the enemy AC is sufficiently low that it doesn't, having the feat for Deadly Aim can still allow the fighter to turn better attack bonus into more damage.

Of course, considering the Zen Archer monk still has better skills and saves than the fighter, it makes sense that it's less effective at simply turning foes into pin cushions.  And the monk is only a level away from getting another bonus attack.


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## Victim (Jul 17, 2011)

Oh yeah.  Armor Training seems really good on a bow fighter, since it lets you get more out of the DEX you're getting anyway.  So the Archer Fighter variant isn't necessarily the best option for being an archer.  Normal fighter seems to have more defense, whereas the big gain on archer seems like the trick shooting - it doesn't wreck enemies with its arrows any more than the vanilla class features.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jul 17, 2011)

I think Archer Fighter is terrible, overall, and it's a shame.  Trick shooting is only really nice if you're bored of just rolling attack and damage every turn.  Even the useful ones like bull rush are arbitrarily held back till higher levels, and the grappling one is beyond worthless.

Again, I would do Mobile Fighter.  Losing the last two Armor Trainings doesn't hurt that much, and it gets +7/+7 by level 20.  Though up until level 9, it's the same bonus as any other Fighter, if your game is a low level one.


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## Kaiyanwang (Jul 17, 2011)

You are joking right? 

Try to shoot to a spellcaster or outsider. Either they melee, or must expend the nex standard action, unless minion are involved. And in this case, you forced two targets in the same place.

And let not start on the tactical utility of bull rushes + teamwork with spellcasters. being able to perform them from that distance is amazing.

I agree that mobile fighter and standard fighter are excellent archers too, and tat's good. Mobile fighter is an excellent 2whatever you want", indeed.

But don't understimate the fighter archetypes. barring 1 or 2, they have a place if you know what you want.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jul 17, 2011)

I'm not joking.  Until level 11, your only options are disarm, feint, and sunder.  Disarm is probably the best, though of limited use.  Feint is useless without multiclassing, both to get SA and to actually have Bluff as a class skill.  It's also its own action, whether you have Improved Feint or not.  Giving up your full attack action when you don't have to as an archer = bad.  Sunder I just plain don't like.  It doesn't outright destroy treasure anymore if you just want to use sunder to give some small debuffs out, but it can still mess with your treasure haul if the item you "break" has a higher CL than the party.  In all cases, the -4 CMB penalty seems harsh, considering a melee guy enlarged with a reach weapon can do his thing up to 20 ft away (as opposed to your 30 ft), no problemo.  Add in that your str is almost certainly much lower than a melee guy's and...yeah.

At level 11, you FINALLY get the good stuff.  Trip and bull rush both help you keep your distance from an enemy and give you viable battlefield control options.  Whether it's worth suddenly going out and spending your (now high level) feat slots on a completely worthless feat (Power Attack or Combat Expertise) just to be able to spend another 2 feats on Imp/Greater Trip/Bull Rush is anyone's guess.  And yes, again, the grapple option is useless.  The arrow has 1 hp and 5 hardness.  You spend an attack action to use it, the enemy spends an attack action and destroys it.  Except you have a fair failure chance, he's almost guaranteed to suceed in destroying that arrow.  I guess it could screw up a mage, but so does shooting them up for lots of damage.

I'd rather have armor training.

EDIT: To make matters worse, Safe Shot is a curse.  At best, it's delaying your Point Blank Master feat till level 6 (as a bonus feat, since those are by RAW the only ones you can retrain) when any other Fighter could have it at level 5.  At worse, someone who is newer to character building sees it at level 9 and figures its worthless to get the feat, and spends 4 levels needlessly getting AoO'd for shooting his bow.  Actually, worse case scenario, the player takes PBM at level 5 and from level 9+, is stuck forever with a worthless feat...


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## Kaiyanwang (Jul 17, 2011)

I meant "grappling is beyond worthless".

and "I don't like" is not that an argument for sunder. You are not foced to loot everything in every campaing. If you don't consider the valiue of sundering, say, an holy symbol or a scroll with a prepared action, I don't know what to say.


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## tylermalan (Jul 17, 2011)

Kaiyanwang said:


> Try to shoot to a spellcaster or outsider. Either they melee, or must expend the nex standard action, unless minion are involved. And in this case, you forced two targets in the same place.




Sorry, but what does this mean?  

And also, is the tactical utility of bull-rushing an enemy in combination with an allied spellcaster actually _better_ than just outright attacking that same enemy, at level 11?  Somehow, I think the damage output at level 11 would be high enough that you would usually much rather just full-attack than spend your entire turn trying to push an enemy one square so that your Wizard can hit just one more guy with some AoE spell (the damage of which is probably not going to rival your potential damage output if you just tried to shoot the guy).



Kaiyanwang said:


> If you don't consider the valiue of sundering, say, an holy symbol or a scroll with a prepared action, I don't know what to say.




Lastly, how often does this happen?  I never know when a guy is going to pull out a scroll until it happens, and I already used my last turn/action to shoot him.


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## Kaiyanwang (Jul 17, 2011)

A spellcaster or an outsider (so, another type of spellcaster) have big problems if grappled. high concentrations for the spells they want to cast.

So if grappled, since concentration in grapple is high, they must remove the arrow and lose the action.

Synergy with spellcasters meant pit or black tentacles + bull rush. Stuff like that.

if stuff like this, or targeting special items, does not happen in your games this does not make maneuver and features useless I am sorry.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jul 17, 2011)

On a side note, I plan to nerf the bejeesus out of the current concentration DC for using a spell in a grapple, it's just frigging stupid.  10 + CMD + spell level is just simply impossible after a few levels.  Grapple ALREADY completely shuts down any casting that requires somatic or material components (unless you had already gotten them out from your pouch a previous turn), with 100% success rate.  To make a literally impossible DC to cast spells that don't fall into those categories in addition to that is INSANE.  It's really sad when you're relying on magic items or wands to save you from a grapple rather than your own "skill," and the DC is just so out of whack compared to the other ones.

I'm actually rather on edge about this issue because I was just informed of it the other day when I joined a level 14 game.  I mentioned that I had a Dim Door prepped as an emergency for grapple escape and was told it would almost certainly not work, as the last grapple monster the party had fought had CMD 45.  I have anklets of translocation, so no biggie, but isn't it pathetic that a 1400 gp item is more reliable than my own spells?  I'm all for keeping casters in check from breaking the game, but if a caster had a spell with a save DC of 50, people would be livid.

/rant


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jul 17, 2011)

Back to Archer Fighter, I'd like it better if it lost some of the worthless class features, had some things re-ordered, and kept armor training I and II at least.  Heck, just not giving trick shots till level 11 at all (again, so you get AT I and II) and providing the full list at that point would be a huge fix all by itself.

If I were to rearrange, I'd probably do this:

- Keep Armor Training I and II
- Remove Safe Shot completely.  PB Master feat exists already.
- Evasive Archer replaces AT III at level 11 (and goes to +4 at 15)
- Volley replaces AT IV at level 15
- Trick Shot replaces Weapon Training II-IV at levels 9, 13, and 17, and has all options immediately open.


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## Kaiyanwang (Jul 17, 2011)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> On a side note, I plan to nerf the bejeesus out of the current concentration DC for using a spell in a grapple,




I see the thing in the opposite way. IMHO cast in grapple should be impossible. And i consider high level concentration check far too easy without optimization.

Casters must avoid being grappled and threatened, and in case, melee are there to save them. the fact that concentrations are too easy (barring grapple, which is good as is) mantains some high level imbalance.

And Freedom of Movements is still too strong.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jul 17, 2011)

I wouldn't mind raising the cast defensively DC.  At the very least, I plan to make it 10 + 3* spell level, so it starts off easier and is harder for high level spells.

But seriously...the grapple DC is broken.


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## tylermalan (Jul 17, 2011)

Ahhh, ok, I see what you mean.


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## tylermalan (Jan 28, 2012)

Is there any one major, awesome feat that an archery character should be working toward?


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jan 28, 2012)

Clustered Shots (BAB +6, feats you'll need anyway) from UC to make DR something to never worry about again?  Improved Precise Shot (BAB +11, feats you'll need anyway) is invaluable to avoid concealment, penalty for soft cover of allies in the way, etc... and is probably my most desired archery feat for any character.  And Point Blank Master so you don't get screwed by Step Up is quite important, IMO.  A spellcaster can cast defensively and only suffers one AoO for casting.  When the melee guy follows your 5 ft step?  You're just boned, and he gets an AoO for every shot you take, and does more damage than you.

Those and Point Blank/Rapid/Precise Shot I'd say are staples for almost any archer.  Beyond that it's really up to you.  UC has a bunch of feats to eventually threaten a sizeable area with bowshots, and with Improved Precise Shot you can ignore less than full concealment and cover (which by RAW would prevent making AoOs, annoyingly).


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## Squire James (Jan 28, 2012)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> On a side note, I plan to nerf the bejeesus out of the current concentration DC for using a spell in a grapple, it's just frigging stupid.  10 + CMD + spell level is just simply impossible after a few levels.  Grapple ALREADY completely shuts down any casting that requires somatic or material components (unless you had already gotten them out from your pouch a previous turn), with 100% success rate.  To make a literally impossible DC to cast spells that don't fall into those categories in addition to that is INSANE.  It's really sad when you're relying on magic items or wands to save you from a grapple rather than your own "skill," and the DC is just so out of whack compared to the other ones.
> /rant




I have the feeling the grapple Concentration DC was designed before the concept of CMD was finalized, and the extra +10 shouldn't be there.  I feel CMD + spell level is more than reasonable.


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## tylermalan (Jan 28, 2012)

This character will be in the same party as the alchemist I'm making at level 6, by the way.  Archery Ranger.

The guy has Point Blank/Rapid/Precise already, plus Improved Precise.  Also Weapon Focus.  Passed on Point Blank Master for Improved Precise.  What do you mean "threaten a sizeable area?"


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## Qik (Jan 28, 2012)

Snap Shot enables you to threaten adjacent squares, and the Improved version expands that out by 10'.  Pretty wicked.

Edit: Also, for whatever it's worth, to the OP or others, there's a great guide on the zen archer up on the Paizo boards.  Linky


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jan 28, 2012)

Bah, and I thought I'd have the first Zen Archer Monk guide!  Oh well, I've been lazy and haven't updated.  I skimmed his guide though, and it seems far too wordy and of questionable advice (Goblin is NOT a good race for the class!), but YMMV I guess.


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## LogantheBard (Jan 31, 2012)

For a pure DPR standpoint, fighter is king.  From a utility standpoint, ranger is king.  My personal preference is Crossbow ranger.  It lets me dump strength (low enough only to carry my gear) for higher Wis/Int/Cha for skills/feats/spells.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jan 31, 2012)

I like crossbows, too, they're wildly underrated, and Crossbow master means you can use a Heavy Xbow just as easily as a bow for rate of fire.

My only issue is, RAW a Crossbow Ranger can never get Point Blank Master feat, it's only available to bow rangers (who probably take it at 10th level since IPS is still better, but the point is they can get it).  Most DMs will probably houserule that issue away, but it should be noted.


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## kinem (Feb 2, 2012)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> On a side note, I plan to nerf the bejeesus out of the current concentration DC for using a spell in a grapple, it's just frigging stupid.  10 + CMD + spell level is just simply impossible after a few levels.




Old post, but (at least according to the SRD) it's 10 + CMB + spell level, not CMD. Which, IMO, is still too hard; there should be a cap.


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## Fooly_Cooly (Feb 5, 2012)

Something that really helps an archers dmg is the Great Bow. 1d10 dmg. They also have composite of course on top of that. Has a longer range and higher dmg. From heroes of battle I think. So Ask your dm if he could let you use that puppy .


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