# Computers, Projectors, and Battle Maps.



## Blue Max Studios (Feb 7, 2011)

When I first started researching how to make professional looking battle maps on the Ye Olde Internet, I came across this post  on the Geek Six website.  Now I didn't really find the techniques  mentioned all that useful for the kind of look I was going for (don't  get me wrong, the maps shown on the site looked great) I was intrigued  by one thing:  The idea of using a projector to put the battle map up on  screen.  Minis were simply Photoshop layers that could be moved.   Sections of the map could be blacked out at will.  Explosions, puddles  and other effects could be added easily and stay where they're put - and  thanks to the opacity slider, they could even be transparent so the map  underneath isn't obscured.  It sounded good to me.

       The other day, as I was planning out March's deck plans, It  occurred to me that using a projector and Photoshop to display Battle  Maps may have another potential benefit.  Scott McCloud, who wrote  perhaps the definitive books on Comics as an art form, suggested the  potential of using computer displays for that medium is like having an  "infinite canvas" which needs no page breaks to interrupt the flow of  the story.  This got me thinking...if one used a projector and Photoshop  to display a battle map, theoretically that battle map could be as  large as you wanted it.  You could map a capital ship in one-inch scale  and be able to display it without page breaks.  Heck, It didn't even  have to be one-inch scale, because the resolution on the Photoshop  coupled with the magnification of the projector will allow the actual  map document to be smaller. 

       Theoretically, you could map a Star Destroyer.

      What I would like to know, my dear RocketFans, is whether or not  any of you have used a computer and projector for your battle maps  before, and if so, how did it work out?  Did you enjoy it, or was it  more trouble than it's worth.  Fresh cookies for any comments!


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## kmdietri (Feb 7, 2011)

Been doing it for about a year now.  Works great, I wouldn't do it any other way now.  We have gone completely electronic, no more dice or character sheets.

We use FGII to run combats and maptools to project the map onto our screen.

If you run pubished adventures, there's no problem what so ever.

If you run your own stuff it takes a bit of building up/preparing a map library so you have a map for every sitution.  

But I wouldn't go back for anything.


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## mattcolville (Feb 7, 2011)

kmdietri said:


> Been doing it for about a year now.  Works great, I wouldn't do it any other way now.  We have gone completely electronic, no more dice or character sheets.
> 
> We use FGII to run combats and maptools to project the map onto our screen.
> 
> ...




How do the players interact with the projected Battlemat in FG2?


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## kmdietri (Feb 7, 2011)

mattcolville said:


> How do the players interact with the projected Battlemat in FG2?




The two programs don't communicate with each other.  What we do is have a dedicated laptop run maptools as the pc's computer.  Then each PC has  a wireless mouse to move their character in maptools.  While they each run their own PC's off their own laptop via FGII.  

I myself would just use FGII for mapping and everything, but others in the group really like the lighting and visionblocking available in Maptools, which I admit is really kool, so we use the combination of the two.

Once we got used to it, combats sped up quite a bit.


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## cyderak (Feb 8, 2011)

I use D20Pro Virtual tabletop with a projector that is mounted on the inside of this:

EN World: D&D / RPG News & Reviews - cyderak's Album: Touch screen Gaming Table - By: Cyderak

Basically the projector bounces the image off of a mirror at the bottom of the table thus reflecting the image onto a 1/4" thick  3'x3' sheet of plexiglass which serves as the tabletop.  
Maps are projected onto the plexi-glass and mix of D20Pro tokens,  D&D miniatures,  and painted metal minis are used for monsters,  characters,  items,  etc........

Then I mounted a wii-mote onto the inside of the table right next to the projector which works like a signal reciever and a infra-red pen works like a mouse.   
Because the Wii-Mote uses Bluetooth technology I use Bluesoleil software to make it possible for my laptop to communicate with the Wii-Mote.  

Then I use SmartBoard software to map out the array that is able to be manipulated by the infra-red pen which again works like a mouse.

If you don't want to make your own maps you can always go to Dundjinni Mapping Software - Bring Your Game To Life and raid the forums.  Guys are always posting maps on there.


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## OnlineDM (Feb 8, 2011)

This is a topic near and dear to my heart. I've been doing this for about four months with a portable rig using my laptop, a projector and MapTool. The details of my rig are here.

I've been using this to run regular games at home, games at my local store, and even games at local conventions. I now use a white vinyl roll-up mat to project the image onto, so everything is completely portable (carry the mounting rig in one hand and pull the suitcase with everything else in the other hand). I'm looking forward to running games at Genghis Con with it in a couple of weeks.


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## Blue Max Studios (Feb 8, 2011)

Wow!  Thanks for the input, folks; I really appreciate it.  Okay, next question:  Who would like to get their hands on a deck plan of a spacecraft the length of a Corellian Corvette?  It would be about thirteen feet long at one inch scale, but could be used over and over and be the setting of an entire adventure.

Anybody interested?


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## jcayer (Feb 8, 2011)

I'll add my support for this.  We've gone digital with the map(maptools) and projector.  We projected on the table for a while and used the wii-mote hack, but have recently moved to projecting on the wall and the players passing around a wireless mouse.

It's been great.  Lots of space to project on, the players are starting to add macros to expedite their moves, and the table even has a little free space.

In the future, I could see everyone with their own pad type device and use that to control maptools and digitize their character sheets. But that's probably a year away.

I will add, the init tracker that is build into maptools rocks as well.


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## falcarrion (Feb 8, 2011)

I have a projector rig like OnlineDM. I also use maptools to project the maps.
I also have an Ipad with an app that links into maptools ( Mapnakotic). And an app for my character sheet ( I4E ). Now my problem is my group doesn't want to have anything to do with  tech with the game. They don't even want to see what can be done with projectors and maptools at all. Only one guy in the group has bought an Ipad after seeing mine. But that doesn't stop me from experimenting. Like making an app that controls the tolkens. When you tilt an Itouch, Iphone, or Ipad it moves the tolken.

Tilt forward the tolken moves forward.
Tilt left it goes left.
Tilt right it goes right.
Tilt back it move backwards.

I can dream can't I...lol.


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## Blue Max Studios (Feb 8, 2011)

I dunno if it's the genre or the medium.  I seem to notice that player of Sci-fi games are more inclined to accept new tech in this manner.  Wargamers would much rather use minis and model terrain, if given a choice, and die-hard fans of D&D seem to prefer old-fashioned battle maps.  These are just broad generalizations, of course.

Has anyone noticed how Star Trek gamers seem less inclined to use map at all?  I suppose this makes sense; very few adventures in ST are set on the ships themselves; they usually involve away teams.


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## cyderak (Feb 9, 2011)

Blue Max Studios said:


> I dunno if it's the genre or the medium.  I seem to notice that player of Sci-fi games are more inclined to accept new tech in this manner.  Wargamers would much rather use minis and model terrain, if given a choice, and die-hard fans of D&D seem to prefer old-fashioned battle maps.  These are just broad generalizations, of course.
> 
> Has anyone noticed how Star Trek gamers seem less inclined to use map at all?  I suppose this makes sense; very few adventures in ST are set on the ships themselves; they usually involve away teams.




We've used D20Pro for star Wars RPG.  Found some Star Wars Ship deckplans and some battle maps for Star Wars settings.

It was a BLAST!!!

I also found some maps for our Mutants and Masterminds (2nd Edition) campaigns.  A map with some placeable items for superheroes and super-villains to interact with.


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## Deepfire (Feb 9, 2011)

I use an LED-projector, mounted above my (white) gaming table, a Macbook which uses the display as "second screen" and most of the time photoshop for the display. (I tried to use dndjinny or maptools, but most of the time I stay with PS. I work daily with PS, so my expertise is by far better with it than with maptools for instance).

When I play a published scenario, I scan the maps, cut them into PS-layers, delete the secrets of the maps, name the layers like the rooms they describe, add illumination with semitransparent masks and here we go. We still use metal miniatures or other markers - it's easier this way.

Additionally, when Illustrations are to be shown, I can drop them on the display. Large NPC groups with important persons/names get a page with their portraits and names under it for easy player reference. 

My players like it, I like it - it was a cheap (projector for 200 or 300 Euro) solution with a huge success. Highly recommended


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## Blue Max Studios (Feb 9, 2011)

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.  I like using photoshop precisely because of the ability to add transparent layers and obscure unexplored sections of the maps.  And personally, considering the cost of minis, I think investing in a projector would be cheaper in the long run.


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## Piratecat (Feb 9, 2011)

Here's a question I think I already know the answer to. If you're too damn lazy to prep battlemaps ahead of time, is there any value to setting up a projector to shine down on the table? Can map-building be done swiftly on the fly?


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## falcarrion (Feb 9, 2011)

Piratecat said:


> Here's a question I think I already know the answer to. If you're too damn lazy to prep battlemaps ahead of time, is there any value to setting up a projector to shine down on the table? Can map-building be done swiftly on the fly?




I would say yes if you have the right equipment. With graph paper, scanner/printer, and maptools. I can load a map in a flash. Or I could create a nice map with pymapper. I beleive there is even software out there that you can create random dungeons with.


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## jcayer (Feb 9, 2011)

I'll answer you question with another one...how detailed a map do you want?

If you're looking to throw a room together, that is the shape of a box, and toss a couple creatures in it...just as easy in maptools as on graph paper.

If you want something special in maptools, 30-60 minutes depending on level of detail, size, etc.

Maptools has changed the way I prep....in a good way.


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## darjr (Feb 9, 2011)

If i had a projector or digital map i'd start a catalog or collection of as many of the digital maps I own or can use. I'd build an index so I could find the one I need quickly to plop onto the table.


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## cyderak (Feb 9, 2011)

If you need maps go to:

Dundjinni Mapping Software - Forums Search

Search for a specific type of map like:
--dungeon
--temple
--town
--tomb

Rifle through the posts and find the maps that suit you. 

Alot of them are very nice maps made by professional RPG battlemap designers.


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## Blue Max Studios (Feb 9, 2011)

Why use a table?  The advantage of a projector (and Mini-counter on separate Photoshop/GIMP layers) is that the battle map can be projected on a _wall_.  This leaves the table free for books, sheets and dice-not to mention the fact that spills and crumbs are safely away from the action.  

Also, if the minis are traditional unpainted metal (most non-star wars sci-fi ones still are, aren't they?) then the time required to sand, paint, assemble and otherwise prep a handful of minis can yield a map, a huge number of mini-tiles and still end up costing less.

I'm not suggesting that miniature collecting and wargame play should be replaced; after all, they are a hobby within themselves.  For me personally, I want a convenient way to keep the action going in an RPG, and I think that projectors and jpg files may be the way to go.


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## Steel_Wind (Feb 9, 2011)

Piratecat said:


> Here's a question I think I already know the answer to. If you're too damn lazy to prep battlemaps ahead of time, is there any value to setting up a projector to shine down on the table? Can map-building be done swiftly on the fly?




Yes. Use the original Neverwinter Nights 1 toolset to create and diplay your maps.

With placeable buildings, stripped rooms and rescaled furniture, you can build virtually any scene or battlemap faster than you can draw it -- at a level of detail which is half-dozen orders of magnitude greater in vibrancy and detail, too.

Ignore the suggestion about drawing on the fly with Maptool or other programs. They are FAR too slow. 

Use the NWN1 toolset - that's the ticket to speed.


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## Steel_Wind (Feb 9, 2011)

Blue Max Studios said:


> Why use a table?  The advantage of a projector (and Mini-counter on separate Photoshop/GIMP layers) is that the battle map can be projected on a _wall_.  This leaves the table free for books, sheets and dice-not to mention the fact that spills and crumbs are safely away from the action.




Because:



 I can't put my minis on a wall projected image;
 I can't intereact with such a battlmap normally as I usually do with my game by just reaching out my hand and moving my miniature. By having to tell somebody else what to do, or what to move and  where to move it, the technology DIVIDES the players from the game instead of uniting them around a common tabletop;
 instead of providing a point of focus and convergence around which people gather to play a game and look at one another in the ordinary way, the players slip in to a non-engaged "entertain me" mode which is markedly different from the atmosphere of a normal Tabletop RPG.  This is not an improvement -- this is a marked disadvantage.
I have posted on this issue extensively since I started the initial Coolest. Gaming Setup. Evar. thread here on ENWorld about six years ago. For all of these reasons, projecting an image on the wall is a singularly BAD idea and a poor use of this technology. I recommend strongly against it.


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## falcarrion (Feb 9, 2011)

it is possible to do miniatures on a wall. If it is magnetic. Such as a magnetic white board. I have a white board that I shine the projected image onto. Though I have it flat on a table I could put it on the wall and use it that way.
I already have magnets on the base of my miniatures that are strong enough to stick and stay on the refrigerator.


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## Piratecat (Feb 9, 2011)

Steel_Wind said:


> Use the NWN1 toolset - that's the ticket to speed.




Hmm. Where do you get NWN nowadays? How steep is the learning curve?


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## cyderak (Feb 9, 2011)

Piratecat said:


> Hmm. Where do you get NWN nowadays? How steep is the learning curve?




Heres where you can get Neverwinter Nights for cheap and windows 7 compatible:

Neverwinter Nights: Diamond Edition - GOG.com


But,  How do you add a grid over the NWN created maps???


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## cyderak (Feb 9, 2011)

Blue Max Studios said:


> Why use a table?  The advantage of a projector (and Mini-counter on separate Photoshop/GIMP layers) is that the battle map can be projected on a _wall_.  This leaves the table free for books, sheets and dice-not to mention the fact that spills and crumbs are safely away from the action.
> 
> Also, if the minis are traditional unpainted metal (most non-star wars sci-fi ones still are, aren't they?) then the time required to sand, paint, assemble and otherwise prep a handful of minis can yield a map, a huge number of mini-tiles and still end up costing less.
> 
> I'm not suggesting that miniature collecting and wargame play should be replaced; after all, they are a hobby within themselves.  For me personally, I want a convenient way to keep the action going in an RPG, and I think that projectors and jpg files may be the way to go.




We only use Painted minis for our character PC's. Besides, I get all mine professionally painted by a phenominal artist in my area.

We use D&D Pre-Painted Minis for all the monsters.   

I like using minis.  Keeps with the traditional way of gaming. 

If I want to sit around and watch my game from afar and periodically make decisions i'll just play this   [ame=http://www.amazon.com/Scourge-Worlds-Dungeons-Dragons-Adventure/dp/B00009KU8L/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1297294232&sr=8-1]Amazon.com: Scourge of Worlds - A Dungeons & Dragons Adventure: Dan Hay, Lester Rosenthal, Anna Deas, Caroline Lesley, Jack Brown, Sam Cunningham, Chad Nixon, Paul Stodolny, Peter Lepeniotis, Tom Perry, Jos'h R.L. Fuller, Mark Davies, Dan Krech, [/ame]


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## Steel_Wind (Feb 10, 2011)

cyderak said:


> Heres where you can get Neverwinter Nights for cheap and windows compatible:
> 
> Neverwinter Nights: Diamond Edition - GOG.com
> 
> ...




I project onto a pre-grided surface. This is preferable, as it allows you to control the map scale both in hardware and via the zoom feature of the lens, indpendent of an otherwise consistent grid. For a variety of reasons, I have found this to  be a better approach.


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## Steel_Wind (Feb 10, 2011)

Piratecat said:


> Hmm. Where do you get NWN nowadays? How steep is the learning curve?




I saw NWN Diamond Ed. for $10 on Steam 2 weeks ago. You want to be sure to patch it to the last update -- as that it where all the cool art that my team spent three years making was added in. There is, literally, more art resources in the final patch than was added to the game in the first two expansions -- combined. You can also use our creature art to do some neat things -- like add horses to your scene when creating a campsite with horselines. (complete with barding if you care to add it) Stuff like that is HANDY when building a scene.

In terms of building and drawing? Literally, couldn't be easier. 

NWN 1's learning curve was shalllow as all hell when it came to basic map building. When it came to lighting? A little trickier -- but still extremely easy.

When it came to scripting? That's a different matter entirely. Very steep curve then. But you aren't going to be scripting anything (and in your specific case, I don't think NWScript would be too hard in any event) 

But scripting doesn't matter for this purpose, as you will _never_ be running your map in the game client -- all map display will take place within the toolset itself. You will never be required to do one line of nwscript, ever, with the toolset when using the toolset for this purpose.

The only thing you would have to do any NWN modding for (if you wanted to) would be to add new placeables to your placeables 2da file from the Neverwintervault. That's it - that's all. And there are tutorials available to do this if you needed to do it. It's editing a column delimited text file. That part is easy if you decide to do it.

Otherwise? As easy and intuitive drawing as has ever been devised by man. That's the beauty of tile based map design in NWN 1. It's FAST and EASY.  The entire toolset was designed, literally, on the paradigm that Trent Oster's grandmother (he was the producer of NWN1) was supposed to be able to fire it up and visually accomplish something with it in the first ten minutes.

That was their design mantra and they executed on it rather brilliantly.


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## Oryan77 (Feb 10, 2011)

Steel_Wind said:


> You can also use our creature art to do some neat things -- like add horses to your scene when creating a campsite with horselines.




Can you do fog-of-war within the NWN map tool? I still have my copy of NWN but I never messed with the map tool. I may just have to reinstall this.

Also, maybe this has been discussed in your original thread, but I don't have time to search through that huge thread, so I'll just ask here. Have projectors become any better as far as the room needing to be dark in order to view the projected image?

That has been the only reason I never did attempt this sort of thing. Everything I read about it seemed to show that the room needed to be dark, or fairly dark. And I can't read books and character sheets in a room that is not lit well. Plus I wouldn't want to be in a dark room with my players. There is no telling what they'd do to me if nobody could see.


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## cyderak (Feb 10, 2011)

Steel_Wind said:


> I saw NWN Diamond Ed. for $10 on Steam 2 weeks ago. You want to be sure to patch it to the last update -- as that it where all the cool art that my team spent three years making was added in. There is, literally, more art resources in the final patch than was added to the game in the first two expansions -- combined. You can also use our creature art to do some neat things -- like add horses to your scene when creating a campsite with horselines. (complete with barding if you care to add it) Stuff like that is HANDY when building a scene.
> 
> In terms of building and drawing? Literally, couldn't be easier.
> 
> ...






You have any pre-generated maps you'd like to share?


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## Steel_Wind (Feb 10, 2011)

Oryan77 said:


> Can you do fog-of-war within the NWN map tool? I still have my copy of NWN but I never messed with the map tool. I may just have to reinstall this.




In the toolset? Not easily - but you can kludge one. I created a placeable with a black pane preset to come in at a height above the map. I think I made it an attachment to a message in the original thread. It should still be there.

You essentially build your map - then populate those placeables and place them over the top of what you want hidden. You then remove them in the toolset to uncover the map beneath it as you go along.

It's not really intended for fog of war. It's ideal for villages, inside of small buildings, random encounters in the wild, caves, outdoor scenes and, especially, campsites. You can use it to explore a dungeon, but it's kludgey for that purpose.  Not recommended for that.



> Also, maybe this has been discussed in your original thread, but I don't have time to search through that huge thread, so I'll just ask here. Have projectors become any better as far as the room needing to be dark in order to view the projected image?



This was always a function of brightness. As long as you have an 1800 ANSI or better projector (preferably 2200 ANSI+) you'll be fine. Once you spike over 3500 ANSI, it's _goudge your eyes out bright.
_ 
But to address this issue head on? I think projection technology is now passe for battlemat applications. A far better alternative -- and one which completely solves the brightness issue -- is a flat panel display.  Grab a TV and lie it down on the table top. 

When the projection thread started nearly six years ago, projectors at that time were ~ $500-$600 for a used projector. A lot of people on EN World bought projectors for $1000 to $2000+ dollars. Most were spending about $700-900 on their new projectors.  All of those models used special lamps with optics in them that had a finite number of hours and were $300+ to replace. That has not changed. They still have a finite lifetime of use, degrade over the lifetime of that use (they get noticeably dimmer), and are hella-expensive to replace.

You can purchase a 5000 series Samsung 46" OLED Flat panel display, which is only 1.12 inches thick, for $899 right now. That thing has a flat back and lies down almost perfectly on a tabletop. It's THIN. REALLY THIN.  It is a FRIKKIN AMAZING flat panel. The colors on it are absolutely gorgeous too. Moreover, the weight on this unit is so low that you can move it around easily without the need for another set of hands to help you. This technology is now here and as affordable as projection tech was when we first started adopting it here on ENWorld. 

The Samsung 5000 is only a 60Hz model. The market is now moving to 120Hz or 240Hz for top end Blu-Ray use. But for most viewers? Really - the Samsung 5000 is still an *amazingly high quality picture*. And for battlemat use? The increase in Hz -- which is only relevant for a fast moving scene in a 1080p movie, is utterly irrelevant for our purposes. Our scenes aren't fast moving car chases   So the trend in the high-end market is now serving  a tech problem we don't have -- and which the more expensive sets don't add anything too. That means it's a good time to buy last year's set at a bargain price 

In terms of size, a 46" flat panel is larger than most projected maps. It's also at the size where in terms of resolution, you really can't make a projected image any bigger than 46" on the diagonal without running into significant pixelation issues and image degradation. Most projectors were recommend on whether or not they could manage a 42" to 44" image at the throw distance from the ceiling to tabletop. If they could do that? They were about as good as they needed to be. Even 38" was considered passable.

Well, a 46" flat panel already beats that yardstick in every possible way.

In terms of contrast, brightness and detail? There probably isn't a projector on Planet Earth (well, outside of a Planetarium) that could ever compete with the Samsung.

And that's for a 1" thick bleeding edge OLED flat panel. 

For a more middle of the road 42" or 46" LCD flat panel? That will run you only about $500-600.

Still, I think the Samsung OLED 46" is the way to go. But there are a large number of flat panels which are less sophisticated (read, thicker) than the Samsung which produce a comparable image.

Anyway, a flat panel is never going to suffer from any brightness issues. With a flat panel, the real question is ensuring it is turned down in brightness so it's not too bright to look at up close. The concerns that the image is washed out or not visible during play utterly vanishes.

We had speculated in the original thread when flat panels would become cheap enough -- and thin enough --  that projection technology would no longer make sense. In my view, we're at that point now.

Now, if you already have one -- or have a source for a fairly cheap used one? Ok. Then it's a matter of dollars and getting by with what you can.

But there is absolutely no reason to be buying a new projector for battlemap projection. I'd get a Samsung 5000 series LED flat panel.

That recommendation will change later this year and next, as new models come out. The main issue is image size, cost and overall thickness of the flat panel. 60 pound 1080P TVs that are 5" thick with an unevenly contoured back are hard to lie flat without a custom fit table specifically designed for the purpose.

A 46" 1.12 inch Samsung 5000? You can lie that down on your kitchen table and pick it up and move it after the game without any special modifications to the table. 

Check it out at your local Best Buy. I did -- and I must admit, that within 1 second of seeing the thin and EVEN contour profile of that model, my mind started whirring like a sonofabitch. *"She will be mine. She will be."*

We're there folks. [Edit: Well... at least Oryan77 is there! ]


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## Blue Max Studios (Feb 10, 2011)

Steel_Wind said:


> Because:
> 
> 
> 
> ...






Mmmmm... I do sort of see your point.  I admit for many traditional games that using such non-traditional techniques would indeed break that special magic that makes gaming an interactive experience as opposed to a low-tech version of a video game.

That being said, I still contend that there are situations that would make the advantages of computer controlled, wall projected battle maps and minis preferable to the traditional alternative:

_Big ships_: Let's look at the Corellian Corvette, as _Star Wars'_ smallest capital ship.  At 150 meters, the battle map size (in SWSE's 1 inch=1.5 meter scale) would be nearly _thirteen feet long._  That is certainly a point where the side scroll function of a computer trumps a full sized poster map.
_Angle and Glare:_ Maybe it's just me, but at normal table top level, the glossy maps that one normally uses are at such a shallow angle to my eyes that about half the map is obscured by glare.   Not to mention that I have to physically stand and move a mini, possibly walking around the table to do so.  This may sound lazy, but my point is actually that it increases the risk of knocking over minis and scrambling terrain features in the process.  The risk of such on a projection is zero.
_What Table?:_ I don't game at one.  My friends and I would much rather sit on the couches in the living room.  The coffee table is too small to be in reach of both couches at the same time, and it's low enough that my toddler boys can conduct truly epic raids against minis if not watched constantly.  The argument can be made that my kids should not be present at a game, but if we couldn't have our kids present, there would _be_ no game.  Besides, out fellow players like our kids, like the fact that they can bring their kids and we don't mind and if we use a wall projection, again, _all of the above arguments are invalid._
I not trying to suggest that everyone do it that way, mind you.  I'm simply saying that an applied use of technology opens up options that would otherwise be impractical or impossible.  That's what technology is _for,_ right?


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## mattcolville (Feb 10, 2011)

Steel_Wind said:


> Yes. Use the original Neverwinter Nights 1 toolset to create and diplay your maps.
> 
> With placeable buildings, stripped rooms and rescaled furniture, you can build virtually any scene or battlemap faster than you can draw it -- at a level of detail which is half-dozen orders of magnitude greater in vibrancy and detail, too.
> 
> ...




How does it compare to Dundjinni or the Tiamat Tile Mapper?


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## Steel_Wind (Feb 10, 2011)

mattcolville said:


> How does it compare to Dundjinni or the Tiamat Tile Mapper?




I have not tried Tiamat - though I did try e-Adventure tile mapper. e-Adventure is slapping down 2d images. Even then -- it's not as flexible and nowhere NEAR as pretty. 

NWN's placeable list is vast. When you choose to paint down buildings as placeables, the "grid" look to NWN villages vanishes as well. Now, as a GAME, NWN pathfinding will break into a billion pieces if there are placeable buildings across walkmesh node points. 

But that isn't what we are using it for when we just want to use it as a paint program to display a graphic image on a screen. We aren't making a module that needs to run as a compurer game with pathfinding AI that works. All we are using it for it to make a pretty 3d map. So it's all kinds of awesome for that. Hell, it will even give you animated seas/Ocens or animated lava fires on screen, too. 

You can paint an entire village or town in less than a minute. Poof. Done.

Compared to Dundjinni? It's like comparing the Excelsior (NWN) vs. a Space Shuttle (Dundjinni).

Java is a slow-ass language for graphics. Dundjinni (which I bought the Platnium version of at a primo price back-in-the-day) is slow on _any_ machine. The only point in favor of Dundjinni is that it will print maps. NWN does not have that capability.

But seeing as we are using a projector/display technology so that printing a map isn't an issue -- well that removes that advantage at a stroke, doesn't it?

They really can't compare. I can do more in NWN in 5 minutes than most people can do in 5 hours with Dundjinni. 
And you can too.

Yes. Really. There's no comparison.

Now, appreciate as well that NWN is a 3d engine - not 2d. All the more reason.

Frankly, for making the kinds of maps that Dundjinni makes for electronic display (not for printing), I think that Maptool is a better, faster and more capable software package at a far better price (FREE). 

But, even still, I wouldn't want to use Maptool in real time to make a great map in 1 or 2 minutes flat. 

OTOH, I can get awesome results with NWN in those sorts of time constraints, no problem.


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## Deepfire (Feb 10, 2011)

doublepost


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## Deepfire (Feb 10, 2011)

Blue Max Studios said:


> Why use a table?  The advantage of a projector (and Mini-counter on separate Photoshop/GIMP layers) is that the battle map can be projected on a _wall_.  This leaves the table free for books, sheets and dice-not to mention the fact that spills and crumbs are safely away from the action.
> 
> Also, if the minis are traditional unpainted metal (most non-star wars sci-fi ones still are, aren't they?) then the time required to sand, paint, assemble and otherwise prep a handful of minis can yield a map, a huge number of mini-tiles and still end up costing less.
> 
> I'm not suggesting that miniature collecting and wargame play should be replaced; after all, they are a hobby within themselves.  For me personally, I want a convenient way to keep the action going in an RPG, and I think that projectors and jpg files may be the way to go.




Displayed on a wall, I would have to move all counters ("no, more to the right"), PCs and whatever - on a table, the players can move their chars, I can add 3d elements for clarification, the concentration of the players is on the table/game/gm/center, not on a far away display.

On a table you can combine miniatures and digital icons - or use just one of them. It's "easy playing" - for more easier than with printed maps or with chessex washable maps, for instance.

These days, one of my groups visited a HUGE dungeon - and I could just scroll ... no problem with a too small table (ok, my table is huge), with cups or beer bottles (this is europe, we drink while playing) standing in the way or with chips fatting my precious paper maps. 

Miniatures are just used because I have them already. Else I would only use digital icons.

Maybe I add a pic if I learn how i can do this here 

happy gaming from germany


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## jcayer (Feb 10, 2011)

As a group that has recently moved to the wall, I have to disagree with all the negativity.  We use the built in tokens from maptools, or the players went and found an image they liked and we made it a token.  Heck, they could draw one if any of them had the skill to do so.  On top of that, someone/something gets bloodied, I can change their token to reflect that with 2 clicks.  I have, or can easily create, ALL the monster tokens I want.  I got tired of having the wrong mini, or using dice to represent monsters.

Moving things?  Piece of cake, they have a wireless mouse that gets passed around the table and they can move their tokens wherever they wish.  

They never look down, except at their sheets.  I sit with my back to the wall and face them.  Since they are always looking at me or the map, they are more involved.

We have a couple laser pointers scattered around the table and a grid, with coordinates, on the map.  Easy to point things out.

Finally, the map is dynamic.  Last night, the players had stolen an astral ship and were pursued by a flight of red dragons.  Two of the dragons lit the ship on fire with their breath weapon.  I drew the fire right on the map.  One of the players decided to try to use an ice power against the fire, that also made it onto the map.    Another ship pulled up along side and I was able to draw it right there in less than a minute(yes, it was rudimentary).  But the map changed as combat did.  It was pretty awesome.

I will say, when playing AD&D, without a tactical map, they were far more engaged than they usually are.


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## kmdietri (Feb 10, 2011)

jcayer said:


> As a group that has recently moved to the wall, I have to disagree with all the negativity.  We use the built in tokens from maptools, or the players went and found an image they liked and we made it a token.  Heck, they could draw one if any of them had the skill to do so.  On top of that, someone/something gets bloodied, I can change their token to reflect that with 2 clicks.  I have, or can easily create, ALL the monster tokens I want.  I got tired of having the wrong mini, or using dice to represent monsters.
> 
> Moving things?  Piece of cake, they have a wireless mouse that gets passed around the table and they can move their tokens wherever they wish.




I agree 100% with the wall love.  my laptop has 6 usb inputs so everyone at the table gets their own wireless mouse, so there's even less of a hastle.  

We tried the table top, but someone had to be 'upside down' so to speak in terms of the map and token movement so the wall has worked a lot better.


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## Oryan77 (Feb 10, 2011)

Steel_Wind said:


> A 46" 1.12 inch Samsung 5000? You can lie that down on your kitchen table and pick it up and move it after the game without any special modifications to the table.




I may just need to make a trip to the store to view these tvs in person. I have actually been considering buying a new tv for my wife to watch in another room when I'm bothering her with my xbox in the living room. 

I could use it as a game table also. What would you suggest I use on top of it as far as glass/plexiglass so we don't mess up the tv?

And do you know of any problems with a tv being on its back like that for long periods of time?


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## Oryan77 (Feb 10, 2011)

Can anyone find any youtube videos where gamers are using a flat panel tv as a battlemat? I can't really find anything and I'm not really sure what to search for to get results. I keep getting reviews on tvs. Surely someone is doing this and has a video to show off their setup.


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## mattcolville (Feb 10, 2011)

Steel_Wind said:


> But, even still, I wouldn't want to use Maptool in real time to make a great map in 1 or 2 minutes flat.
> 
> OTOH, I can get awesome results with NWN in those sorts of time constraints, no problem.




Downloaded NWN and tried it, I think you're probably a power-user of the toolset and so what would be nigh-impenetrable to a normal GM is transparent to you. I think someone, a normal person, looking to map a map quick should expect to spend quite a lot of hours mastering the NWN toolset before you can get a great looking map in 1 minute.


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## OnlineDM (Feb 10, 2011)

I wanted to chime in to disagree with Steel Wind about the difficulty of putting together a map on the fly in MapTool. I respect Steel Wind's advice a lot on projector setups, but I've very easily put together quick, good-looking maps in MapTool. One example is in this post, where I put together an encounter on the fly and took 10 minutes to do everything - decide what I wanted the encounter to look like, draw the map, create the monster tokens (based on other existing tokens).

Obviously this is quicker to do the more experienced you are with MapTool, but that's going to be true of any tool.

I'm sure it's also very easy to generate great maps on the fly in Neverwinter Nights, but that doesn't mean that it's not easy and fast in MapTool.


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## Steel_Wind (Feb 10, 2011)

Oryan77 said:


> I may just need to make a trip to the store to view these tvs in person. I have actually been considering buying a new tv for my wife to watch in another room when I'm bothering her with my xbox in the living room.
> 
> I could use it as a game table also. What would you suggest I use on top of it as far as glass/plexiglass so we don't mess up the tv?
> 
> And do you know of any problems with a tv being on its back like that for long periods of time?




If you look at the Samsung model in question, it appears to me that there is a 1/4"  - (maybe 3/16ths" ?) of a recessed "dip" where the screen is lower than the surrounding bezel.

My plan was to have a piece of plexiglass (or maybe two of them sandwiched together) which I could cut so that they "fit" this hole and lay them down on top of the recessed screen. 

The outer plexiglass layer would have "a lip" which would be larger than the recessed part of the screen so that the plexiglass was being supported by the bezel and not just bearing all the weight on the screen. That plexiglass "sandwich" would also:

1 - be pre-gridded with 1" grid (insert a 1" grid printed on  transparency film in the middle of the plexiglass sandwich, perhaps); and

2 - act to protect the screen during use

I'm not CERTAIN that would work, but that was my current idea. I'm rather confident that approach would work.

I'll ask my podcast co-host Azmyth about this tonight. He's a professional AV/Home Theatre guy and installs ridiculously expensive high-end systems in CEO's homes so this is his core business. I think he's even a Samsung dealer for that matter.  Anyway, I'll ask him as to whether or not he thinks that approach might work. 

The only real catch I can see in all of this is what you do with the wall mount bracket you would normally put on the flat panel. That's a real issue.

It's all well and good to suggest the back of the unit is contoured flat and so it will lie flat on the table. Well, that's true enough -- but that isn't the whole of the story.

Because if your plan was to use that flat panel as a TV when not using it as a battlemat? Then the flat panel is going to need a wall mount bracket attached to the back of it. If so, there goes your perfectly flat 1.12" profile. That is certainly going to detract from the ability to just plop it on the Kitchen table in all of its 1.12" thick glory.

Now, if you buy that flat panel for use *only* a battlmat? Well, then the question of what you do with the wall mount bracket  isn't an issue (because it won't have one). My guess is that the number of us who  can choose to dedicate a 46" flat panel LED TV *solely* for use as a battlemat is a pretty short list indeed.

When you can use the 46" flat panel as a big ass TV when not gaming once a week? The "wife factor" is a *LOT* less of an issue then if you try and reserve the thing dedicated solely to battlemat use once a week on Saturday evenings. 

As for problems with it being on its back like that all the time? Azmyth told me that it's very unlikely to prove be an issue, and if it is, it is best deal with through the use of a few PC microprocessor fans clipped on to the top of the unit to assist in cooling when lying flat. Happily, LED's are very energy efficient and don't throw off so much heat that they will need active cooling.


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## FoxWander (Feb 11, 2011)

Piratecat said:


> Here's a question I think I already know the answer to. If you're too damn lazy to prep battlemaps ahead of time, is there any value to setting up a projector to shine down on the table? Can map-building be done swiftly on the fly?




I'm partial to Maptools because of its fairly short learning curve (and price ).  But yes, maps can be made very quick on the fly.  Here's 2 videos which showcase just that:
Maptool Quick Maps 1 
Maptool Quick Maps 2 
These folks are rather experienced with the interface and keyboard shortcuts, but it doesn't take much to learn it that well.  And of course it would be just as easy to do this as pre-game prep work.  Not to mention that there are tons of pre-made maps available that can be dumped into Maptools just to take advantage of the easy grid movement and spell area templates without bothering to set up fog-of-war/line-of-sight blocking.  The rptools and dunjinni forums are awesome for user-made miniature scale adventure maps.

Finally here's another vid (Digital Tabletop Demo) that uses Johnny Lee's wiimote whiteboard hacks to make maptools (and other programs) interactive with a projector.

The first couple of minutes just show interactively scrolling around maps. From the 2-5 minute mark they appear to use photoshop to overlay a dungeon map with a fog-of-war texture and manually erase it to show progress thru the dungeon.  But fast-forward to 5:19 and see how you can use maptools as digital graph paper- but with snap-to-grid easy lines, texture fills, and the ability to pull the map over to the DM for easy drawing then slide it back under the PC minis.


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## falcarrion (Feb 11, 2011)

I found this on the internet today.

PRODUCTS - SKIN | DISPLAX - Interactive Systems


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## Oryan77 (Feb 11, 2011)

Steel_Wind said:


> If you look at the Samsung model in question, it appears to me that there is a 1/4"  - (maybe 3/16ths" ?) of a recessed "dip" where the screen is lower than the surrounding bezel.




I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm now the proud owner of a Samsung 46" 5000 series TV.

I read your earlier reply today and then immediately after had to leave the house to take my wife to the dentist. While she was getting a tooth pulled, I took my son to Best Buys just to check out their TVs since this topic was on my mind. I wasn't planning on getting anything and figured everything I found there would be out of my price range.

Then there it was hanging on the wall, a Samsung 48" 5000 series TV with a red sticker marked down from $899 to $679. At first I asked a salesman about a TV that I could lay on it's back and he said anything like that would cost me over $1000 and most likely would be a 30". Then I asked him about the 5000 series I saw and he said, "Ya know, I don't make commission, so I'm not trying to get you to buy a more expensive TV. I actually just forgot we had that TV on display."

It was the last one of it's kind in the entire store. He mentioned the poor refresh rate but I told him that in my case, that is not an issue. So he said the TV would be perfect for me then. At that price, I had to snatch it up. Plus I had a $20 Best Buys gift card.

So I bought it and they took it down from the wall, wrapped it in bubble wrap, gave me a remote control, and I now have it sitting on my gaming table!

I haven't plugged it in yet. I'm trying to figure out how I'm going to use this thing & set everything up. I cut some black cloth that it can lay flat on. Also, I don't wall mount my TVs, so I have a stand for it. So staying flat is not even an issue. But it does seem a bit of a hassle to screw it back onto it's stand. Would have been nice if it just hooked on, but I have to take 3 screws out to remove it from the stand.

But I have to say, just looking at it sitting on the table powered off is exciting. The thing looks like it was built to be a battlemat. I can't wait to turn it on, hook a PC up to it, and set minis on it. I still need to get some plexiglass though.

What a totally unexpected buy. Thanks for the suggestion.


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## Steel_Wind (Feb 11, 2011)

Oryan77 said:


> I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm now the proud owner of a Samsung 46" 5000 series TV.
> 
> What a totally unexpected buy. Thanks for the suggestion.




Pics! Reports! Gleeful boasting!!

From the looks of the hook-ups and dealing with the dongle best, I thought a HDMI to the Samsung would be best. But that depends on your video card.

Either HDMI or VGA should rock. 

Really excited for you man. Let us know how it looks and is working out for ya.
*
*BIG THUMBS UP**


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## JDragon (Feb 11, 2011)

Oryan77 said:


> I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm now the proud owner of a Samsung 46" 5000 series TV.




CONGRATS!! This rocks.

As a faithful follower of SW's original thread and projector user for over 2 years I can still honestly say I'm jealous.

BTW what is the actual height / width of the screen?  IE how many 1" squares can you get in each direction?


I'm currently getting 30 - 40 1" grid from my setup, but do have to admit the quality, while drastically better than Tac-Tiles is only 20pix per inch so not very detailed.  But I was more interested in play area than detail.

I'm really liking the fact that flat panel TV's are getting to a usable price and transportable weight.  I would love to roll in to my local convention with one to run a game. 

I know I will be looking much closer at this when my projector dies.

JD


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## Oryan77 (Feb 11, 2011)

All I have done so far is set it on the table, hooked up a laptop, and loaded a generic map that is not scaled or anything (looks pretty close though). But here are some pics of it so far that actually seem impressive for doing very little setup.

I tried to show how it looks with minis, how thin the tv actually is, and how even though the tv is sitting on it's cables, it still lays very flat on the table. The thing doesn't rock at all. It's very stable. Oh, and btw, I have both of my halogen lamps on in the room. So my room is lit normally and the image on the tv still looks great. Not too bright, not too dark. Although you can adjust those settings if you want.


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## JDragon (Feb 11, 2011)

Looks really good!  

I agree with SW on making a cover for it to keep from scratching the screen, even if all you use is plastic minis. 

Depending on your gaming  area / available table space, I could see a couple options for set up.

1. Build a low frame with 4" - 12" legs that it sits on, which then allows players to set their books/ character sheets and dice underneath out of the way.

2. Build a table that is drops into so it sits flush with the top of the table which then gives you space for books ect. (see above)

Damn, this is really making me want to do the same thing, but their is no way I could sell my wife on it after just getting her to let me mount the projector on the ceiling last year. 

Just noticed you are in SJ, any chance you coming up to San Ramon for DunDraCon next weekend? (Feb 18th - 21st)


JD


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## Steel_Wind (Feb 11, 2011)

*WOW.*

TV3.jpg tells the tale. About as gorgeous as it gets.

That panel is full of WIN


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## mattcolville (Feb 11, 2011)

...

That's a thin TV, yo.


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## Oryan77 (Feb 11, 2011)

JDragon said:


> Just noticed you are in SJ, any chance you coming up to San Ramon for DunDraCon next weekend? (Feb 18th - 21st)




Wait, are you asking my new TV/battlemat if he'll be at the con, or are you wondering if I'll be there? Cause my new TV is much more interesting than I am.

I've never been to an RPG con before, but we've been wanting to check one out. I forgot about DunDraCon, I might see if I can talk some of the players to go.

I do plan to get some plexiglass or something because it probably isn't safe using minis directly on the tv. I was thinking of getting one of those rotating table tops like you see at Chinese restaurants. I could set it on our gaming table, put the tv on it, and that will keep it lifted up a bit. It could even help with the cables being in the way. It wouldn't spin around much since the tv will be plugged into the wall and a laptop, but it could still turn a bit.

Was just an idea. I'm not sure if I could trust my craftsmanship if I tried to build something myself.




Steel_Wind said:


> *WOW.*
> 
> TV3.jpg tells the tale. About as gorgeous as it gets.




The pics show it off pretty good, but it is much better in person. My pics don't really show off the quality that well. I didn't use the flash because it kept coming out too bright. I'm not very good with a camera. If this TV is as much as people spent on projectors, then it is *well* worth it.

Everything that discouraged me from doing the projector setup is not even an issue at all with this TV. Thanks for the heads up man.


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## Oryan77 (Feb 11, 2011)

I just installed my old copy of NWN and updated it. I also realized that I have the Shadows of Undentide and Hordes of the Underdark expansion packs. My brother gave them to me years ago and I never even installed them.

Do you know if they would add to the map building tool for NWN? If I install them, will they provide additional items to be used in map making?


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## Steel_Wind (Feb 11, 2011)

Oryan77 said:


> I just installed my old copy of NWN and updated it. I also realized that I have the Shadows of Undentide and Hordes of the Underdark expansion packs. My brother gave them to me years ago and I never even installed them.
> 
> Do you know if they would add to the map building tool for NWN? If I install them, will they provide additional items to be used in map making?




Install them. No question they will be helpful. The original SoU had a PITA bit of red paper with the install code on it -- hope you didn't lose it. Then update and patch the install to the final version (that adds TONS more art).

To get the most out of NWN 1 mapping you need to do some screwing around and adding of hak paks from Neverwinter Vault. Add me to your Skype (you have my e-mail address) and give me a shout on the weekend. I'll give you the complicated run-down on what you need to do to get the most out of it. It can be a rather fiddly one-time bit of modding/set-up to deal with at first, but once set up properly it's *done* and you won't have to worry about it again. You use it and it "just works".


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## vegaserik01 (Feb 11, 2011)

My group bought a standard projector and hung it from the ceiling. We project a gridless map down to an erasable battle mat and use mini's and counters. We started about two years ago with it, and our map library has grown considerably. There's a few places online that have maps, plus you can download Wizard's from their adventures and books. A couple people in the group are good at making maps, the rest of us make due with what we can find. We used GIMP since it's free, and use layers to simulate the fog of war. The projector has a standard monitor plug that plugs into any computer so we just bring a laptop and plug it in and we're ready to go. The best feature of the projector is we can freeze the image, so then the DM can erase fog of war or draw or do whatever is needed and the players can't see until the projector is unfrozen and it displays the current image.


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## falcarrion (Feb 11, 2011)

You could make a base out of PVC pipe to raise the tv off of the table. Extremely cheap and easy to do.
Then you can put on those felt peices on the pipe to protect the tv from scratching and the table too.


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## pendragoncrw (Feb 11, 2011)

My group and I were just talking about the possibilities of a TV last night and after some Google searching, stumbled across this thread.  A lot of awesome information and I look forward to seeing how the TV table progresses.


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## Bereaved (Feb 11, 2011)

what are you doing about the heat? i used my 32" flat panel and it got pretty warm.


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## Steel_Wind (Feb 12, 2011)

Bereaved said:


> what are you doing about the heat? i used my 32" flat panel and it got pretty warm.




It's an LED -- not a CCFL backlit unit like most LCD tvs. It runs a lot cooler. It _should_ be fine.


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## Oryan77 (Feb 12, 2011)

Steel_Wind said:


> It's an LED -- not a CCFL backlit unit like most LCD tvs. It runs a lot cooler. It _should_ be fine.




 I made this yesterday to set the tv on, but I'm not sure if it would be bad to have the tv sitting on the foam. I haven't used the tv much so I don't know if it does get hot and if it would melt the foam or something. Should I reinforce the foam with electrical or duct tape? Or should it be fine?

BTW, the opening on the left is to put the cords through.


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## Bereaved (Feb 12, 2011)

Steel_Wind said:


> It's an LED -- not a CCFL backlit unit like most LCD tvs. It runs a lot cooler. It _should_ be fine.





hmm i might have to look into one.


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## Azmyth (Feb 13, 2011)

Oryan!
Congratz on a beautiful set!

I'm in the A/V business. 
I'd like to toss in my professional 2 cents...

"When in doubt, over ventilate!" 
If your flat-screen has fans, they won't be seriously powerful. This keeps the amount of sound they emit on the low side. That mixed with the fact that they are designed to pull hot air toward the top edge of the set, can create problems when laying flat for extended periods of time. 

My recommendation is to add a half dozen more 'T' pieces to your frame.
Use a laptop cooler in one (or both) of the open areas to promote air flow. You'll want to test to see if you can power them off the TV's USB port.

Cheers!


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## Oryan77 (Feb 13, 2011)

Azmyth said:


> Oryan!
> My recommendation is to add a half dozen more 'T' pieces to your frame.
> Use a laptop cooler in one (or both) of the open areas to promote air flow. You'll want to test to see if you can power them off the TV's USB port.




I looked at laptop coolers and I was wondering if this was a good one (I'd get 2 of them)? [ame=http://www.amazon.com/Antec-Notebook-Cooler-USB-Powered/dp/B0000BVYTV/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1297618091&sr=8-4]Amazon.com: Antec USB-Powered Notebook Cooler: Electronics[/ame]

I don't know much about coolers, so I'm not sure which one would be good to help cool down a *TV*. 

I'll tweak my stand a bit to allow more air to circulate in/out of it. Thanks for the tips.

What about protecting the padding from the TV? Do you think the pads will be fine touching the back of the tv like this or should I wrap the padding in electrical or duct tape, or something like that?


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## Azmyth (Feb 13, 2011)

That cooler looks perfect! I might grab one as well...

The foam in contact with the back of the set in fine. It will not get hot enough to melt.


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## FoxWander (Feb 13, 2011)

Looks great Oryan!

My only suggestion would be to add legs to your frame so that the TV sits high enough to put books and stuff underneath.  I don't know how big the TV is compared to your gaming table but raising it up would help discourage putting anything but minis on the TV surface.  It would also protect it from spilled drinks. 

If you string some low-heat lights underneath it (like some LED christmas lights) then the space underneath becomes usable table top again.


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## Oryan77 (Feb 13, 2011)

FoxWander said:


> Looks great Oryan!
> 
> My only suggestion would be to add legs to your frame so that the TV sits high enough to put books and stuff underneath.  I don't know how big the TV is compared to your gaming table but raising it up would help discourage putting anything but minis on the TV surface.  It would also protect it from spilled drinks.
> 
> If you string some low-heat lights underneath it (like some LED christmas lights) then the space underneath becomes usable table top again.




I thought of adding legs, but it would be extra work, sort of wobbly, and would make the screen high enough where players would always need to stand up to see the board. Player's can be lazy, so I don't want to make them exercise if they don't want to.

The TV will be off the table and there will be plexiglass on top of the tv. So if a drink happened to spill, it should be ok.


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## Oryan77 (Feb 13, 2011)

For anyone that already uses a projector, or anyone using Dundjinni or the NWN map tool, do you have a collection of digital battlemaps that you wouldn't mind sharing with me?

I'd like to gather up a ton of maps that I could reference when I need something for the game. I've been googling stuff, but I was hoping for more. Especially the NWN maps, they look nice.


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## falcarrion (Feb 13, 2011)

Oryan77 said:


> I looked at laptop coolers and I was wondering if this was a good one (I'd get 2 of them)? Amazon.com: Antec USB-Powered Notebook Cooler: Electronics
> 
> I don't know much about coolers, so I'm not sure which one would be good to help cool down a *TV*.
> 
> ...




You might want to check this one out. It includes 4 usb ports.
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Performance-Aluminim-Cooling-Toshiba-Satellite/dp/B00126RZR2/ref=sr_1_35?ie=UTF8&qid=1297635382&sr=8-35]Amazon.com: High Performance Silver Black Aluminim USB Cooling Chill Pad with 3 Built-in Fans with 4-port USB 2.0 Hub for Toshiba Satellite Laptop: Electronics[/ame]


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## Steel_Wind (Feb 13, 2011)

Oryan77 said:


> I've been googling stuff, but I was hoping for more. Especially the NWN maps, they look nice.




There is no shortage of NWN Maps. The main source for all things NWN is Neverwinter Vault.

The full listings for modules is here:

Neverwinter News, Trailers, Screenshots, Previews, Reviews, Guides -- Neverwinter Nights 2 Vault

DL the module, open it in the toolset and use the map you like. You won't need any of the rest of the scripting elements or creatures -- you can easily select all by type and strip those out in a few click.

In many instances, you will need a hakpak downloaded as well. Just follow the appropriate directions listed for the modules in question.


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## Blue Max Studios (Feb 14, 2011)

Niiiiiiice...I want one.


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## cyderak (Feb 14, 2011)

Oryan77 said:


> For anyone that already uses a projector, or anyone using Dundjinni or the NWN map tool, do you have a collection of digital battlemaps that you wouldn't mind sharing with me?
> 
> I'd like to gather up a ton of maps that I could reference when I need something for the game. I've been googling stuff, but I was hoping for more. Especially the NWN maps, they look nice.




Go here:

Dundjinni Mapping Software - Forums Search

Type in whatever kind of map you want.  Dungeon.....temple......inn.....castle.......tomb.......keep......and so on.


alot of high end maps on there.

you can also buy maps here:

SkeletonKey Games -

http://www.rpgnow.com/index.php?filters=0_0_0_0&manufacturers_id=61

http://www.rpgnow.com/index.php?filters=0_0_0_0&manufacturers_id=107

Scrying Eye Games: OrcTown Maps by Rick Ricci...

FUTURE ARMADA

Creative Gremlins Marketplace

RPGNow.com - Advanced Search


enjoy.


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## Jupp (Feb 16, 2011)

Oryan77 said:


> Can anyone find any youtube videos where gamers are using a flat panel tv as a battlemat? I can't really find anything and I'm not really sure what to search for to get results. I keep getting reviews on tvs. Surely someone is doing this and has a video to show off their setup.




Not really youtube but still:

Building a Digital Battlemat

http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-discussion/278246-dms-computer.html#post5212941


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## Thraug (Feb 21, 2011)

I'm considering going the digital tabletop route, leaning towards a overhead projector, mostly so we can write on the projected area and use minis without much worry, and also so we don't have to worry about spills and food mess (common problem with my group).

I read on some other forum about some folks that use a overhead projector placing some "building blocks" for where elevated terrain are projected onto. The projected image renders on these building blocks (just white foamboard or whatever) and the result looks like a 3d object. I wonder how good this looks, not having seen it live or even in a video.

I wonder how valuable the upcoming WOTC VTT will be with these types of setups. Anyone in the beta care to comment on if WOTC's VTT is a good option for in-person digital tables?


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## Dannager (Feb 21, 2011)

Thraug said:


> I wonder how valuable the upcoming WOTC VTT will be with these types of setups. Anyone in the beta care to comment on if WOTC's VTT is a good option for in-person digital tables?



Probably about as useful as you'd imagine. You can (theoretically, this is still a beta though) configure and save adventures ahead of time, and then just pull them up as necessary (which would save a lot of time). You also get access to the dungeon tiles used to set the maps up, and I'm sure DDI integration will be useful for you.

The whole voice chat thing probably won't see a lot of use, though. Unless you want to make yourself sound like a badass paladin with their voice fonts, but I don't know how well that would work if everyone can hear you speaking in your normal voice at the same time.


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## Oryan77 (Feb 22, 2011)

Azmyth said:


> Use a laptop cooler in one (or both) of the open areas to promote air flow. You'll want to test to see if you can power them off the TV's USB port.




I got the two laptop coolers (had to buy a USB extension cord for 1 of them). I'm wondering though, how should I position these fans? Should they blow directly towards the middle of the tv from underneath, or should I keep the fans under the vents of the tv located towards the "top" of the tv?

There are no vents anywhere else on the tv, so air won't actually be blowing into the tv if I put the fans in the middle.


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## Steel_Wind (Feb 22, 2011)

Oryan77 said:


> I got the two laptop coolers (had to buy a USB extension cord for 1 of them). I'm wondering though, how should I position these fans? Should they blow directly towards the middle of the tv from underneath, or should I keep the fans under the vents of the tv located towards the "top" of the tv?
> 
> There are no vents anywhere else on the tv, so air won't actually be blowing into the tv if I put the fans in the middle.




Not sure how the coolers you have work. Most, I thought, sucked air from the top and blew it out the sides?

Might be that I'm wrong -- and from the sounds of things, it sounds like I am.

But, if they blow up (and suck in from the sides), then in either case, you'll want them either blowing (or sucking) using the big surface part of the laptop cooler near the vents on the tv -- with the air either blowing (or sucking, as the case may be) from out  the sides of your PVC frame.

I'll poke at Azmyth to reply directly -- but I'm _pretty sure_ that was the thrust of his suggestion.


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## mattcolville (Feb 22, 2011)

joeraman said:


> Its informative post provides a lots of information related to topic also give more information related to topic.




You are totally not a spammer!


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## Blue Max Studios (Feb 22, 2011)

It's cool to how much info we've managed to generate on this topic! 

Quick question:  Have any of you that are using a flat screen for battle maps tried using counters instead of just minis?  I'm interested in the idea of counters printed on transparencies.  I _think_ that the result would make the images on the counters visible, but I haven't put it to the test yet.

Anyone given that a try?  If so, please share your experiences!


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## cyderak (Feb 22, 2011)

There are certain D&D minis that are clear underneath the base of the mini and the light from the projector table shines up through the bottom of the mini and kind of illuminates the mini.  

Too bad they didn't make a full set of minis that did that. 

Made specifically for a lit up Game Table.


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## Blue Max Studios (Feb 22, 2011)

oooOOOooo...Were they the elementals?  That would look awesome...


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## kurtsparkuhl (Feb 24, 2011)

*Unreal tabletop mod*

I thought I'd post this here in hopes of getting these guys some more support:

ZomBPir8Ninja

Apparently the developers behind the Unreal Engine game Alien Swarm have decided to make a 3D dungeon builder for tabletop gaming. This is by far the most inventive and advanced use of the digital gaming display that I've seen.

Let's hope this thing makes it out to the public, it drops my jaw every time I watch the videos.


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## Blue Max Studios (Feb 24, 2011)

That's what I'm taking about!  The only thing I'd do differently is put the map on the wall and use either virtual or magnetic counters.  That way the table is open for books, sheets, dice, and most importantly, popcorn and pizza!
Seriously, that program looks awesome.  I will show love on my blog.


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## cyderak (Feb 24, 2011)

kurtsparkuhl said:


> I thought I'd post this here in hopes of getting these guys some more support:
> 
> ZomBPir8Ninja
> 
> ...




I've seen the UDK battlemap video and yes it is freakin amazing.  Do you know if it is going to be a stand alone program or does it have to be used in conjunction with the UDK game engine software?

Did pirateninja say when he might release it to the public?  Is he going to charge?


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## kurtsparkuhl (Feb 24, 2011)

Alien Swarm, the game that they made and published on Steam is free so I wouldn't be surprised if this is too. I'm not sure if it's stand alone or not, from the sounds of it they are running a custom script in UDK to accomplish that stuff so probably not.

But I don't know all the details, I'm just trying to get them some support so that they hopefully finish the project since I know a lot of people here, like myself, would be very interested in this.


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## cyderak (Feb 24, 2011)

kurtsparkuhl said:


> Alien Swarm, the game that they made and published on Steam is free so I wouldn't be surprised if this is too. I'm not sure if it's stand alone or not, from the sounds of it they are running a custom script in UDK to accomplish that stuff so probably not.
> 
> But I don't know all the details, I'm just trying to get them some support so that they hopefully finish the project since I know a lot of people here, like myself, would be very interested in this.




Same here........I'd use that animated battlemap software in conjunction with this:
EN World: D&D / RPG News & Reviews - cyderak's Album: Gaming Table - Touch Screen


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## Thraug (Feb 25, 2011)

Wow, that UTK tool looks awesome. I saw one of the devs reply to one of their Youtube video about 2 weeks, saying they were still working on it! Yeah!  Anyone have any more info on it?


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## Ferrety (Feb 27, 2011)

For fast maps I've used pre-made tiles on the maptool. By scaling different map elements to the same grid-size  I can create maps on-the-fly just by dropping them on map with the snap to grid enabled. Constructing tiles do take some work, but once you have them, it is fast. And if using plain graphics (ie jpg, png) you can use them on (almost) any software you wish. 

I've seem to have around 1gb graphics on my mapping library, but I cannot share them, as they are mostly not mine to share. 

Links to some resources I've been using from top of my head:

Cartographers' Guild - The Front Page
Gallery
pymapper | Dungeon Tile Mapping Software
The Mad Mapper - Home
RPGMapShare.com | Your source for gaming maps and mapping objects

I also use lot of objects from CSUAC, but they do not seem to exist anymore on the net. 

On projectors, I think there has been several threads on using projectors on the table top,  so it might be useful to search for them. Here are couple of more recent ones 

http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/270562-projector-advice.html

http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...ing-portable-projector-setup-rpg-mapping.html


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## OnlineDM (Feb 27, 2011)

Ferrety said:


> I also use lot of objects from CSUAC, but they do not seem to exist anymore on the net.




There's a huge torrent file with tons of objects and textures that you can use in MapTool that I believe is the CSUAC file, but now hosted on rptutorials.net. The direct link to that torrent is here, and my blog post on the topic is here. I've gotten a ton of mileage out of those images.


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## jcayer (Feb 28, 2011)

I will second that.  That torrent has more images than I could ever use.  Well worth the bandwidth.


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## Aplus (Mar 7, 2011)

These maps are the best I've ever seen. I wish there were more like them:

Temple of Demogorgon – The Maps | Zitting Cisticola


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## falcarrion (Apr 5, 2011)

Oryan77 said:


> I looked at laptop coolers and I was wondering if this was a good one (I'd get 2 of them)? Amazon.com: Antec USB-Powered Notebook Cooler: Electronics
> 
> I don't know much about coolers, so I'm not sure which one would be good to help cool down a *TV*.
> 
> ...




I haven't seen anything on your tv setup latley. Just wondering how it is going.


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## Oryan77 (Apr 5, 2011)

falcarrion said:


> I haven't seen anything on your tv setup latley. Just wondering how it is going.




I actually finished the entire setup and we have used it twice so far. I haven't posted new pics yet because I want to paint the pvc pipes black first and I'm waiting until we get moved into our new house later this month.

But the setup is really cool. I'm no engineer and I'm not an expert handyman or anything. But I think I did a pretty good job setting this up.

I bought a sheet of plastic board and cut it to about the same size as the tv. I mounted my padded pvc pipe frame to it. I used velcro to attach one of the laptop fans to the plastic board. I took the fans out of my other laptop fan case and velcro'ed them to the plastic base so they would sit directly underneath the vents on the upper part of the tv. The fans are powered by the tv via USB. Having all of this attached to the plastic board allows me to easily move everything around all at once.

I had a sheet of plexiglass cut to be a little bit bigger than the tv. I then stuck 4 clear rubber bumpers near the corners of the plexiglass. I also stuck several round felt pads around the plexiglass so the glass can lay directly on top of the tv frame without rubbing on the frame. The bumpers fit in each corner of the tv screen on the inside of the frame to keep the plexiglass from sliding around. The bumpers are just short enough where they don't touch the tv screen.

I wanted to still use the tv normally so my wife could watch it whenever I play xbox on our other tv. One concern was that it would be a pain if I always had to screw the base back onto the tv so it will sit on the real tv stand. I thought about mounting it on the wall with those wall brackets, but the mount would not fit in the pvc stand and I think it would cause the tv to sit higher than the stand anyway. But then I recently stumbled across this wall mount when I was looking at tv stands: 

Ultra Slim Wall Mounts

I bought one and the hanger piece fit so perfectly on the tv that I didn't even need to adjust my pvc pipe at all! I haven't hung it on a wall yet because I'm waiting for my move before I start messing with the mounts.

I also learned how to use Map Tool and I made my own maps for the Forge of Fury adventure. That program is amazing! Not only is the tv battlemap really nice, but Map Tool allows us to go a whole other direction with our gaming. Having fog of war, sight distances, and actual lighting for using torches and various light sources is a real trip. Even being able to use the initiative tracker makes things easier. I can even show world maps and handouts within Map Tool and it's cool to see it appear on the tv rather than me passing around sheets of paper.

We still used my miniatures (seeing a creatures actual size in 3d makes it worth keeping the minis). What we did was use tokens within Map Tool so they reveal the fog of war and project lights and vision lines. Tokens underneath miniatures also helps me keep track of which mini was which when it comes to remembering who took damage. They also help keep track of creature placement for when we zoom in or out of the map. All we have to do is realign the tokens underneath the miniatures and we're good to go.

The only let down is that my players have not been able to play much at all since November. One guy had to quit last summer due to work, but I heard he was finished with that project and wanted to get back into the game (he doesn't know about our new setup yet). Then yesterday, another player just told me he has to bail until he can get a new job. He has been working a 2nd temp job on the weekend since his full time job cut down his hours. But now he has been let go from the full time job and needs to spend the entire weekend working at his temp job to pay the bills. So who knows how long he'll be stuck in that rut. As of now, I'm down to 2 players and not sure when we'll have enough players to run a game and try out our new setup. That's how things go though when it comes to being an adult and trying to play D&D. Uhg.


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## falcarrion (Apr 5, 2011)

I recently found something you might want to add at another day. Wiress hdmi system. I figured it would help eliminate you having to run cables from your computer to the tv.


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## OnlineDM (Apr 6, 2011)

Yay for learning MapTool! I hope you enjoy it as much as I have.


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## Oryan77 (Apr 6, 2011)

falcarrion said:


> I recently found something you might want to add at another day. Wiress hdmi system. I figured it would help eliminate you having to run cables from your computer to the tv.




That's cool, I've never even heard of wireless HDMI. I already have to plug/unplug two usb cables for the fans, and then there is the power cord for the tv. I bought an HDMI cord for only $13 at Frys. The cord isn't really a big deal since the laptop has to sit right next to the tv anyway so the players can use it. But still, wireless HDMI is pretty cool.



OnlineDM said:


> Yay for learning MapTool! I hope you enjoy it as much as I have.




Man, it's a great program. I even like how well it is supported. I've asked a couple questions on their forums and it takes them no time to respond. That's a great bunch of guys that are working on it.

If you have any tips on features I might want to look into that I may not have seen on their video tutorials, let me know. I'm not sure what all is possible with macro's and that type of stuff. But I'm not against implementing something if it improves the game.


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## OnlineDM (Apr 6, 2011)

You're ahead of where I am with lighting and vision blocking layers - I've never bothered with any of that. I've done a lot with macros, though, and I highly recommend them for monster attacks, hit points and condition tracking.

You can see my MapTool Education Central right here; if you just want sample macros, those are here.


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## Oryan77 (Apr 6, 2011)

OnlineDM said:


> You're ahead of where I am with lighting and vision blocking layers - I've never bothered with any of that. I've done a lot with macros, though, and I highly recommend them for monster attacks, hit points and condition tracking.




If you're using a projector, you really should setup vision lines. It will also allow the tokens to auto reveal fog of war as they move, keeping you from doing it yourself and it is very precise.

The vision is one of the things I love most about Map Tool. It's a bit of initial work plotting out the lines, but once you get the hang of it, you can do it pretty fast. It's also really neat seeing your light sources revealing only the areas they are meant to reveal. It looks really nice on the screen.

A questions for you:

I really like the idea of your Toggle Visibility, Toggle States, & Summon / Dismiss companion macros. How do you use them though? I read that it creates a button, is that button in some other window or does it appear next to a token when you mouse over it? Just wondering how the whole macros thing works and the tutorials I've seen don't really explain any other macros besides dice rolling.


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## OnlineDM (Apr 7, 2011)

Oryan77 said:


> If you're using a projector, you really should setup vision lines. It will also allow the tokens to auto reveal fog of war as they move, keeping you from doing it yourself and it is very precise.
> 
> The vision is one of the things I love most about Map Tool. It's a bit of initial work plotting out the lines, but once you get the hang of it, you can do it pretty fast. It's also really neat seeing your light sources revealing only the areas they are meant to reveal. It looks really nice on the screen.




Well, I don't use tokens for the PCs with the projector, just the monsters. I could do as you've done and have tokens beneath each PC, but it honestly hasn't felt like it's worth the effort. Maybe it is and I should explore it!

However, it could certainly work great in my online game; I just haven't made the effort to set up the vision blocking layers and so on. Really, it's pretty easy to just manually reveal what the players can see by removing the fog of war (either online or with the projector), so that's what I've been doing.



Oryan77 said:


> I really like the idea of your Toggle Visibility, Toggle States, & Summon / Dismiss companion macros. How do you use them though? I read that it creates a button, is that button in some other window or does it appear next to a token when you mouse over it? Just wondering how the whole macros thing works and the tutorials I've seen don't really explain any other macros besides dice rolling.




A screen shot might help here:






You can see that there are three windows shown in this image - the Map window at the top, the Campaign window at the bottom left, and the Selection window at the bottom right. 

The Campaign window has all of the state toggling macros (prone, cursed, marked, dazed, etc.) as well as a Visibility toggle (it works like the state toggles, slightly different from the monster visibility on my macro page). If I want to toggle the state on a token (or a bunch of tokens at once) I select the token(s) and then click the appropriate toggle button. The Troll is currently marked by Faebs (the blue X) and cursed by Fudrick (the orange skull).

The Selection window has the macros for the Troll (each token, including the PCs, has a bunch of macros on their token window). So, this is where you see the attacks, hit point tracking, initiative, etc. (including the Visibility button at the bottom right). For the PCs, you would also see Second Wind, Short Rest, special abilities like Healing Word, and so on.

The macros themselves don't CREATE buttons - they ARE buttons. You right click in either the Selection window or the Campaign window and select "Add New Macro." You name it, give it a grouping (if you wish), a sort order, a button color and a text color, and then you paste the macro code into the big code box for that new button. Et voila - a cool new macro!

I highly recommend using a campaign template that has the campaign macros and properties and states built in. My projector campaign template is here, if you want to use it.


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## Raddu (Nov 4, 2011)

*Masterplan and a 40" Samsung*

Oryan inspired me and I went looking for a similar TV.  I found the 40" LED UN40C5000QFXZA for $500 (575 after shipping & tax), refurbished.  

I went to Home Depot and bought a 36x24 piece of acrylic for about $23 bucks.  I also bought some felt pad that I cut into .5inch strips to line the acrylic for $3 and a plastic cutter for another $3.  I bought a pack of rubber feet for $3 too.  I bought a laptop cooler with 4 fans for $21.

I got a VGA cord to connect my computer to the TV for $7 from a local computer store.  Instead of making the PVC stand I found some sort of wire stand like thing from the GoodWill store for $1.99.

So for a total of $637 I have a working system as you can see from the images.

However, I'm not done.  I'm going to make a table like the Uber-geek table  with slight modifications that will hold the tv and be relatively flush with the table with additional customization to prevent spillage and the like.

The felt around the edge is really ugly, but it will be hidden once the table's done.

Image 2 is the corner of the tv, you can see where I added the rubber bubble/feet per Oryan's suggestion that without them the felt will allow the acrylic to slide.  So that worked well. The rubber doesn't touch the screen.

The 3rd image shows the laptop cooler under the tv, it fits perfectly and is plugged in by USB to the TV.

All pictures were taken in my living room with windows open on a sunny day.  So when we game it'll be darker and the images look real nice.

The program I'm using is Masterplan


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