# The Le Games: Apology to the Gaming Community



## TheLe (Aug 29, 2008)

Dear Community,

Earlier today OneBookShelf Inc, owners of Rpgnow and DTRpg, discovered a second account which I had created some three years ago in their system. Upon investigation, they found that I had used this second account to post about a dozen reviews over the years, mostly of my own books. All the reviews rated the products as four or five stars, but that is no excuse for ethical lines which I have crossed. As such, all of my products have been suspended from OBS for two weeks as a punitive action for what I have done.

I'd just like to take this opportunity to apologize to OBS, the publishers who sell their fine products on OBS, and most importantly, all of you. Without you, the gaming community, my company wouldn't be successful today. It is all of you that raised The Le Games to where it is now, and frankly I let you down. 

My actions are not justifiable by any sense of the imagination, and I am thankful that a two-week suspension is all that I received. We publishers should be striving to set a good example to others and bring a certain amount of class to the industry; something which I have forgotten.

That being said, I fully intend to make restitution to all of you. Starting seven days from today, I will release the following five books to the gaming community for free: *Unorthodox Barbarians, Unorthodox Monks,  Neo Paladins: The Martyr,  Artifacts I: Ducks of Ultimate Doom, and 17 Magic Weapons.*

That's right, free. 

And they will remain free forever.

That's not all -- in two weeks when my publishing status has been restored, my entire line of _Unorthodox _books will be available for just 99 cents.

I hope that it is within your heart to forgive me for what I have done, and perhaps regain your trust.

Thank you,

-The' Le
www.TheLeGames.com

.

.

.

.


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## Wycen (Aug 29, 2008)

Okie dokie!


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## Crothian (Aug 29, 2008)

This hurts.  As a reviewer it is hard enough to get over people's bias that I've been bribed, secretly work for someone, or just be told that my reviews are worthless to people.  This just showcases that reviews can't always be trusted and can make people really distrust the reviews they read.  It is not just your company you have damaged here but potential the review system.


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## jaerdaph (Aug 29, 2008)

Everyone is sorry after they get caught. I'd already decided after Vikings (which I still bought because I was so impressed with the author and wanted to show support for him) that I wouldn't buy another one of your products and quit your Yahoo Group based on some sexist comments and an attack on a prominent woman in RPG publishing. I can't say I'm surprised by this childish behavior either.


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## DimitriX (Aug 29, 2008)

Of course, the joke is that I've never heard of you or your products.  So, I guess your fake positive reviews didn't do much to help your advertising after all.


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## hewligan (Aug 29, 2008)

Ouch!

I am glad you apologised, but the fact you have seemingly done this systematically, and only stopped because you got caught, is not so good. Also, I understand the gesture you are trying to make with the free product, but it does smack a little of attempting to buy favour with free toys.


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## Aus_Snow (Aug 29, 2008)

Damn. And I actually bought a couple of things from you, too. Just for the record, though: _I was never once persuaded by any review(s) of those PDFs_. Ironic, I suppose.

Anyway, it's my hope that you were (are?) the only one. There was a thread about this very topic (in the general sense that is, IOW how many products in how many lines, from several publishers, consistently get 4-5 stars as a matter of course) on another forum recently. theRPGSite? I think it was that one.

That would suck, big time (if you weren't or aren't the only one doing that) - I wonder how easy it is to do, and what can be done to stop it. . .


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## Jraynack (Aug 29, 2008)

Crothian said:


> This hurts.  As a reviewer it is hard enough to get over people's bias that I've been bribed, secretly work for someone, or just be told that my reviews are worthless to people.  This just showcases that reviews can't always be trusted and can make people really distrust the reviews they read.  It is not just your company you have damaged here but potential the review system.




It is shocking news to say the least and a bit of a disappointment.  I think you made a good start in repairing your reputation (I would suggest that you should also offer some 4th Ed. products for free or 4th Ed. converted products of those you are giving away should you sign up with the GSL).

As for reviews, I have my own judgments about them (I will not expound upon them here).  However, a potential consumer should follow a reviewer that has similiar tastes to their own rather than quickly seeing how many stars a product has before purchasing.

Like with any purchase, do your research - as a publisher, I want you to buy our products, but it does not help me or a customer if they buy our products for the wrong reasons.

So, I think it does hurt the reviewing process as Crothian said, however I will like to point out that customers should look toward reviews that truly offer a critical reading of the product before making a decision to purchase.

Oh, and on a side note - Crothian refused all of our bribes over the last five years.


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## Jraynack (Aug 29, 2008)

Aus_Snow said:


> Anyway, it's my hope that you were (are?) the only one. There was a thread about this very topic (in the general sense that is, IOW how many products in how many lines, from several publishers, consistently get 4-5 stars as a matter of course) on another forum recently. theRPGSite? I think it was that one.
> 
> That would suck, big time (if you weren't or aren't the only one doing that) - I wonder how easy it is to do, and what can be done to stop it. . .




It was a rampant problem back in the day when we first joined the RPGNow ranks five years ago.  So, hopefully The Le Games was the only one.  That is why I stress on the potential consumer doing their research.

I have found that also the opposite is true - other publishers offering bad reviews to competing products or companies.  This is a very good reason to support staff reviewers like Crothian and others over vague, short customer reviews.


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## doctorhook (Aug 29, 2008)

This was obviously unethical, but I think it's more common than we'd prefer to believe.

The man deserves some credit for apologizing at all. For what it's worth, if he hadn't apologized, some gamers (myself included) would never be any the wiser.


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## TheLe (Aug 29, 2008)

jaerdaph said:


> Everyone is sorry after they get caught. I'd already decided after Vikings (which I still bought because I was so impressed with the author and wanted to show support for him) that I wouldn't buy another one of your products and quit your Yahoo Group based on some sexist comments and an attack on a prominent woman in RPG publishing. I can't say I'm surprised by this childish behavior either.




People reading this thread have every right to voice their disdain of my actions regarding this matter. But please do not make false accusations of sexism. 

Jaerdaph is speaking of the topic in the The Le Games Yahoo Group concerning this "prominent woman" who publicly bashed me in her blog and allowed other publishers to come on and do the same. Their actions were reprehensible, but everyone rallied behind them anyway. I made it very clear that I held no ill will against this "prominent woman", but the conversation continued.

One of the people in the Group (which is free for anyone to join) responded by saying that the prominent woman "needs to get laid". I responded by disagreeing with comment, but I also made it very clear that everyone in the Group has the right to speak their mind as long as it doesn't get too nasty. 

A few people were dissatisfied that I didn't censor the members or start restricting what can be said, and left the group. Of course, they never got to see the apology that the original poster left moments later.

I hold no ill will to people who choose to leave my Yahoo Group, but making false accusations of sexism just isn't cool.

-The Le


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## Greg K (Aug 29, 2008)

Yes, the OP did something wrong.  I can't defend what he did, but I would like to share a different experience that I had with Mr. Le.

 Last year my father  passed away.  About six months prior to his passing (about Christmas time), the insurance company decided that they would no longer pay to keep him in the hospital and sent him home to "die".  I had mentioned this at ENWorld in another thread going on at the time.  

A day later, there was a message in my inbox.  A  publisher had sent me some complimentary pdfs.  I had not asked for anything from anyone and I had not mentioned what I and my family was going through in hopes of getting anything. However, it was, a gesture of support and an attempt to bring a little brightness into my life from somebody on these boards that I had never met.  The publisher was The Le.

Anyway, I just wanted to share this with you.  It doesn't excuse his lapse of judgment.  However, I hope that sharing my experience will show a more positive side to Mr. Le and that those of you reading this will accept his apology, his attempt to make ammends and, hopefully,  give him a second chance (even if cautiously).

Thank you


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## Treebore (Aug 29, 2008)

Apology accepted. I am not going to act like I have never done stupid things in my life and am therefore "above you" and able to judge you to a standard I don't even know if I have achieved.

So in understanding that we all do stupid things, and all hopefully learn from them, I forgive you and hope you will be a better person for it. Meaning actually learning the lesson to be learned.


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## Urizen (Aug 29, 2008)

S**T happens.

The guy got caught, and was spanked for it. He took his licks and has even gone a step further, by coming out publicly to announce what he did.

That takes courage, to step in front of your fan base and say "I've been lying to you all this time, I was wrong, I'm sorry."

People make mistakes.

It's easy to sit back in judgment, waggle a finger and condemm the guy. It's harder to say, "Ok, I choose to forgive what you did."

Thele:

I choose to forgive what you did.

My only real issue I have with this is that it suddenly casts doubt on the credibility whole review process. It makes people wonder if what they are reading is really the truth.

I know I don't "seed" good reviews in hopes of getting a sale.

Every review score I've received is because someone else took the time to review it, and they reviewed it without bias.

I certainly believe that is the case with the vast majority of publishers out there. Please, don't lynch us all because one person made a mistake.


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## Ranger REG (Aug 29, 2008)

It's good of you to apologize, despite comments that you're only doing so because you got caught. It would be even worse (and so will the comments) if you have not.

Do expect that not everyone will forgive you.

Learn from your lesson, that the ends do not always justify the means.

And just because a critic says it is a good product, it may not be a good product for _you,_ consumers. You make the final decision.


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## Ranger REG (Aug 29, 2008)

It's good of you to apologize, despite comments that you're only doing so because you got caught. It would be even worse (and so will the comments) if you have not.

Do expect that not everyone will forgive you.

Learn from your lesson, that the ends do not always justify the means.

And just because a critic says it is a good product, it may not be a good product for _you,_ consumers. You make the final decision.


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## frankthedm (Aug 29, 2008)

I generally suspect some bias in reviews, whether it come from being a planted review or a bribe of free product.

Well, thank you for the free stuff. 







TheLe said:


> A few people were dissatisfied that I didn't censor the members or start restricting what can be said, and left the group. Of course, they never got to see the apology that the original poster left moments later.



Yeah, that is how things tend to go. They start out, out to get you, and once they find something, the latch onto it.


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## Greg K (Aug 29, 2008)

frankthedm said:


> I generally suspect some bias in reviews, whether it come from being a planted review or a bribe of free product.




Yeah, I'm always a little suspicious-especially if one person is alway giving high ratings to a company.  
I learned my lesson after buying WEG's DCUniverse.  The person was well known in the DC Heroes RPG online community and  I liked some of the stuff he had done for the newsgroup. So, I purched DCU on his review.  Unfortuantely, several powers, lifting and super movements all were ugly in how they were handled(a shame, because the game had a lot of other things going for it)   Later, he admitted to writing a glowing review in hope of getting some freelance work from WEG for the game (Note: He did this on his own accord without any prompting from WEG).

Anyway sorry for drifting a little off topic.


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## Relique du Madde (Aug 29, 2008)

Don't get me wrong, but who cares?  Seriously, who cares?  AFAIK OBS/RPGNOW doesn't pay to have their own impartial group of quality reviewers so instead they let any yahoo on the internet post a review without any quality control mechanism in place that prevents abuse from occurring in the first place. 

 So yea, it's not surprising that the site's review system was abused; and at least you owned up to it unlike the dozens to hundreds of other publishers who have abused the system (or are continuing to do so) and will go on unnoticed.


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## FraserRonald (Aug 29, 2008)

Let there be no mistake, what The Le did was wrong. I'm condemning the action.

Personally, for me, no biggie. I have never trusted RPG Now/OBS review system. There's no quality control. And while I don't have evidence that would be accepted in court, I have definitely seen situations that strongly suggest someone gaming the system. And none of the situations I observed involved The Le.

When RPGN had the "official reviewers," things got better. Those were the reviews I would look at. SEP got some 3 star reviews that pulled down our average rating, but I wouldn't argue with any of those reviews. Same for the stuff I used to see on EN World. And, Crothian, you have a name I trust. You should know The Le's actions haven't coloured my perceptions of reviewers, because there were only a select few I trusted anyway. You were one of them.

For The Le, I'm a little bit dumbfounded. Your stuff is usually top drawer, so I wouldn't think you'd need to game the reviews. 

Water under the bridge. Bad decision. Revelation. Punishment. Some embarassment (usually one of the best punishments). Life goes on.


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## Treebore (Aug 29, 2008)

Relique du Madde said:


> Don't get me wrong, but who cares?  Seriously, who cares?  AFAIK OBS/RPGNOW doesn't pay to have their own impartial group of quality reviewers so instead they let any yahoo on the internet post a review without any quality control mechanism in place that prevents abuse from occurring in the first place.
> 
> So yea, it's not surprising that the site's review system was abused; and at least you owned up to it unlike the dozens to hundreds of other publishers who have abused the system (or are continuing to do so) and will go on unnoticed.




Yeah, actually I would like to know if the reviews I think were secretly written by The Le are the ones written by him. Because if they are the ones I think they are then they aren't exactly dishonest in what they say about the products. I own most, if not all, of The Le's stuff, and I never saw a review on the websites that were wrong about the products.

So I would find it humorous if his reviews were/are honest about the strengths and short comings of the products. It is possible to give a critical review of your own stuff, often harsher then others would judge it, when trying to give an honest self critique.

So maybe he would have been better off just disclosing he was giving a self critique. Especially once people bought his stuff, and saw themselves agreeing with his own assessments.


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## malladin (Aug 29, 2008)

My take on this is it's not much of an apology that shamelessly advertises a sale designed to get some more money from long tail sales on their pdf's as a way of compensating people. I can't say I wish them any success after such unethical behaviour coupled with a plug for the company disguised as an apology. Further, the two week ban is a joke. The way to stop such behaviour, and restore faith in reviews, is to kick companies off the site who are caught falsely promoting their own products.

Nigel


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## joethelawyer (Aug 29, 2008)

i agree with the poster who said who cares.  someone who buys something based on someone else's review of it, who hey don't even know, and gets a crappy product, did it to themselves.  why would you trust some stranger's opinion?  everyone has biases and motivations.

companies of any real size do this all the time in every way.  they fund purportedly independent scientific institutes and think tanks to spout off opinions which the companies then use in advertising. the whole campbell's "soup is good food" ad line was one of them. they funded the organization which did a scientific study that said soup was good for you.  they then used the research results in their ads.  they had some actor guy in a commercial saying "hmm.  i guess mom was right"  after a waitress told him the results of the scientific study.  i can name 30 others.  

what this guy did was just good marketing.  i would change your name to a pseudonym and keep putting out products.  if they are any good they will sell.  if they don't, put out some more reviews.

caveat emptor, always.


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## JeffB (Aug 30, 2008)

malladin said:


> My take on this is it's not much of an apology that shamelessly advertises a sale designed to get some more money from long tail sales on their pdf's as a way of compensating people. I can't say I wish them any success after such unethical behaviour coupled with a plug for the company disguised as an apology. Further, the two week ban is a joke. The way to stop such behaviour, and restore faith in reviews, is to kick companies off the site who are caught falsely promoting their own products.




My thoughts exactly.


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## Michael Dean (Aug 30, 2008)

I'm kind of in the camp of 'who cares'?  I mean, it's embarassing for him, and he should be embarassed, but it's not like he molested puppies.  

I give him some kudos for not trying to downplay it or make excuses, but it's not like he's elevated to hero status in my book.  As a human being who's made a lot of f'd up mistakes in my life, I'm certainly not going to be first in line with some stones in my hand.

As far as reviews go, I can't imagine people who would ever buy something based on a review if they didn't already know the reviewer or the reviewer's tastes/likes/dislikes.  A review is a tool, but it's only a useful tool if you know how to use it.  Taking Joe Blow reviewer's word for something if you don't know if you and Joe like the same things seems weird.  That's why I read some movie reviewers but not others, even though quality-wise they are equally talented; because I know some reviewers have a take on movies or genres of movies that are similar to my own.  

So I don't think this necessarily reflects badly on all reviewers.  If anything, by it coming to light, it's a warning to others who have done it or are thinking of doing it for their own products, and it increases awareness and a healthy bit of skepticism.


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## Treebore (Aug 30, 2008)

JeffB said:


> My thoughts exactly.





So how do you expect him to apologize? Some form of restitution is often a part of apologizing.


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## AbsolutGrndZer0 (Aug 30, 2008)

TheLe said:


> People reading this thread have every right to voice their disdain of my actions regarding this matter. But please do not make false accusations of sexism.
> 
> Jaerdaph is speaking of the topic in the The Le Games Yahoo Group concerning this "prominent woman" who publicly bashed me in her blog and allowed other publishers to come on and do the same. Their actions were reprehensible, but everyone rallied behind them anyway. I made it very clear that I held no ill will against this "prominent woman", but the conversation continued.
> 
> ...




As the one that said the ""needs to get laid" thing, yeah. It was me, just me, not The Le or anyone else on the Yahoo list, and I was severely chastised by most everyone on the list.


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## Ranger REG (Aug 30, 2008)

malladin said:


> My take on this is it's not much of an apology that shamelessly advertises a sale designed to get some more money from long tail sales on their pdf's as a way of compensating people. I can't say I wish them any success after such unethical behaviour coupled with a plug for the company disguised as an apology. Further, the two week ban is a joke. The way to stop such behaviour, and restore faith in reviews, is to kick companies off the site who are caught falsely promoting their own products.



Pray you do not fall from grace, despite I like some of your earlier works (I have downloaded and used your Universal FX for my _d20 Modern_ games).

Pray I can forgive you should the fall come.


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## Henry (Aug 30, 2008)

My first comment: The Le, what the Hell, Man??? 


My second comment: I'm sorry to see it, but I'm glad you "manned up" and apologized.


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## Amphimir Míriel (Aug 30, 2008)

Apology accepted.

Sometimes the only way we kick bad habits is by being caught and publicly embarrassed.

It has happened to us all at least once, I bet.


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## Theocrat (Aug 30, 2008)

*Further Creative Marketing*

Hi all - 
I have many of The Le Games' products. I like some, some I don't. But really, is the company to blame for the act of creating a second account and then posting reviews of the product? No. This is a long post and I go over a few different aspects of why I believe what I believe and what I believe the community should do about it if they feel they have been wronged. 

TheLe is not to blame for creating a second account to review his own product, because the internet is "anonymous" and this fortunately or unfortunately causes its own issues. As it is, I am not really Theocrat or Theocrat Issak. I have accounts for both as well as under my previous Issak the Pale. [This is because I think my Real Life name is so cool and I think that the spelling is just awesome. So I want you all to know my name, and I have always loved the Theocracy of the Pale and it's not that I'm pale skinned or that I'm even religious in real life.] 
I try for Theocrat and then Theocrat Issak, but often because someone has previously used Theocrat (although I've been using it since 1998) and the name isn't available. So in this, I'm several identities. If I write a review and sign it Theocrat and then write another under Theocrat Issak, it's likely you'll know it's me. But if I do one under Theocrat and another under zombie_sniffer, you'd have no idea. And that is the way it should be - just a minor aspect of the Net Neutrality that we should all believe in.

Further, I feel that TheLe has done nothing really wrong, and this is the most important reason...a lack of purchasers writing reviews. Yes, there are people that write reviews such as Crothian, but the majority (myself included) do not write reviews of the products I download (free or paid). Thus all the TheLe games is doing is some creative marketing. If his "loyal" customers aren't writing reviews (good or bad) then we are hurting his product. 
If there is a system in place (I do not know if there is or not) on RPGNow.com that says 1,450 people have bought/downloaded this product from RPGNow.com and 5,670 have downloaded from DriveThru (if connected or if this was information that was available to be passed between the two sites) and yet there were only 6 reviews, it is given that it might be a pretty decent product (just based upon the sheer number of downloads) and none of the reviews are negative.

However, from the various e-Publishing guides I've read and that are out there, if a PDF product sells 100-150 it's a success. Thus if there aren't any reviews and no way to know how many times the product has been downloaded, then the fault really lies with the customers - and the rest of the gaming community. Again, I don't know if there is a system in place that tells you how many times something has been download from RPGNow.com or DriveThru or not (and if there is, if it can combine or show you the number of downloads then that is awesome, and could help alleviate some of this issue). 
But for this part of the argument, lets say that there isn't. 
So with no way to know how many people have bought the product and with no reviews, some creative marketing is a must. Even if there are a few reviews in place for his own products, he has created a new account to review the product. And of course, he's going to give it a glowing review (or a 4 out of 5) because he, as TheLe2 (although, I doubt his second account would be so blatant), does believe that it's that good of a product. Thus it is a little Grey, but it is not wrong. 
If there is a system in place with RPGNow.com/ DriveThru that provides a number of that site's downloads or combines it and a product has a few reviews, there likely isn't the need for the product to have these reviews. However, before the product can be downloaded by the masses, a review would have been written on the TheLe2 account. Again, I see this as more of a creative marketing ploy and nothing else. 

Sony, Warner Brothers and others have been doing this for years. When you see an ad for a movie and Jacob Smithson of the Reno Journal writes a glowing review for SuperMovieAlpha and one from Mike Thompson from the LA Gazette, but you never see any from Rolling Stone, Roger Ebert, or other known names, it's because Jacob and Mike don't exist and neither do the Reno Journal or the LA Gazette. About 3 years ago, Sony got busted for this on one of their movies. Being a Journalism and Media Studies graduate with a focus on Marketing and Public Relations, I've read about and seen worse as the former Marketing Director for an elite private school here in Vegas, BABY!. 

All that TheLe games has done is do some creative marketing because he felt his products warranted the time and effort of a positive review that otherwise might not have been forthcoming. And we all are contrite when we are caught. His current contriteness is a calculated risk in marketing for The Le Games. The majority of us would not recognize that his sales were unavailable for the next two weeks.  Unless it was also posted what his average sales have been over the past six weeks so that we could determine that a two week suspension actually hurts because on average during a two week period he sells X number of books. If he normally sells 15 books in two weeks that could be hurtful. If he normally sells 3 books in an average two week period, it likely won't hurt. And unless it was posted on RPGNow.com and DriveThru, then none of us would be the wiser. However, by coming out and saying this is what I did, and here's how I'm overcoming any potential mistrust, he's using the negative press as another marketing aspect. So if you are going to complain about his posting of reviews under a second name,  then you also need to complain that he is using his "I'm sorry" as a way to sell his products for a reduced amount. But again, I don't feel that this is wrong. Would we know that he was being punished? Not likely. Thus he is asking us to forgive him of something that others have stated are wrong (others being the community as well as the PDF sellers), but if even other publishers didn't know he was suspended prior to his post, then likely the average online consumer wouldn't know either (assuming the other publishers don't know of his suspension based upon the posts by other known PDF publishers). 

So again, I do not feel that he is at fault. Both RPGNow.com and DriveThru or any other PDF seller that he may work with in addition to the gaming community is at fault. RPGNow and DriveThru should have on their payroll full time reviewers. The community does have reviewers, such as Crothian, and they are can either be paid for their time, receive the pdf/book before hand for free or they do it because it helps them in a way (by reviewing products, even if they had to pay for the product, they too benefit, because the time and effort in writing makes them a better writer, grants them more renown among the gaming community and this gives them more credibility). Even my writing this reply helps me become a better, if still prolix, writer. 
The fans should write reviews, because if you liked the product enough to buy it and then thought it was useful or it was a good read but not useful or something else, then if you wrote a review of the product, TheLe Games could afford to do yet another book. So we are at fault (me too, I have most of his products and no reviews). Additionally, the PDF trading market is to blame. Each download of the PDF from the trading site is not registered on RPGNow.com or DriveThru, thus, in no way can it be known the real amount of actual downloads for any PDF book. Additionally, those that get the PDF via a trading site don't also write a review. Thus if there were/are 100 sales of a book on Paladins, and it shows this on the selling sites, with only 2 reviews (and one is suspect) the real amount of downloads can never really be known. Thus, while attempting to counter PDF trading sites is admirable to the masses, asking them to write reviews of your products in exchange for the taking of your book, might also be a recommendation. I'm not suggesting you embrace or say you will provide a PDF of your book if you write a review, but I am suggesting that you ask the PDF trading community to review your books and write a review. Especially since most PDF traders aren't going to be using their PDF trading name on the open market. 

Unless everybody everywhere that has purchased (or illegally downloaded) TheLe Games books and has written a review, we are to "blame" for what he did as creative marketing. If we are to "blame," then we have no real basis for being unhappy with his ideas for creative marketing. 
However, If you are unhappy with what you purchased based upon a review that he is responsible for, then by all means you should be able to ask for a refund. I believe that we should be able to ask for a refund of any product from any publisher that doesn't live up to the standards we believe it should. Yes, you now have their PDF product and could say "I deleted it" and I want my money back because it's a crappy product, but if you are going through that much trouble, it's likely that you're doing as you say.  

If you feel that you bought a product based upon a review he is responsible for and feel that the product doesn't live up the hype from that review, then by all means you have the right to state how wrong you feel TheLe Games have acted and request not free products and not products at a reduced price but a full refund. Even if RPGNow.com /DriveThru won't honor a refund request, TheLe Games may, because that too would be good, positive and yet creative marketing. 

Oh, and even if I already have the books that you'll be providing for free, I'll download them again, just so it up's your overall download numbers by 1. But it doesn't mean I'll write a review, thus I feel confident that other creative marketing - such as asking for it on an individual basis - may need to be looked into.  

Thanks for reading my very prolix thoughts. I hope that those of you that believe he is in the wrong (and later use my post for arguments) look at what you have done for him as a person and for his company besides purchasing his products. Have you furthered his ability to write new and potentially exciting products or have you just purchased them and hoped that was enough? I'm in the latter, and is likely part of the reason I feel he didn't break any trust he had between myself and the products I've purchased. 

Be Well. 
Theocrat Issak
In His Path and Glory We Follow,
Theocrat Issak of the Church of the One True Path of Pholtus

GreyhawkOnline.com / ThePale.org / OerthJournal.com


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## Starglim (Aug 30, 2008)

It's not a good thing, but honestly there are a lot worse things you could have done than fake some 5-star reviews, which on RPGNow I find little better than no review at all.

I agree with the earlier poster that I haven't seen a review that might have been posted by a second account that made claims I'd disagree with about the product.

I'll certainly accept your apology, which costs you more, and means more to me, than some free stuff, excellent as I'm sure they are.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Aug 30, 2008)

While I'm disappointed by the need for it, I think the apology is valid, and I accept it.


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## Sigurd (Aug 30, 2008)

*TheLe has always been fair about his product IMHO*

Can anyone imagine that if a publisher really wanted to post false reviews he couldn't get dozens of jerks to write to order. The system is an honour system and the man has apologized...


Two things I want people to remember.

1. He reviewed his own product. It was wrong but you don't know that his reviews weren't fair. I've bought a lot of excellent stuff from TheLe and, personally, I've been impressed with his honesty.

2. This is the same man who in a recentish (year ago??) sale publicly listed his best stuff and labeled his worst stuff. That was where I really began buying. He's present on the boards and has always treated me and everyone I've heard from well.


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## JeffB (Aug 30, 2008)

Treebore said:


> So how do you expect him to apologize? Some form of restitution is often a part of apologizing.




hmmm..IDK..maybe not plug his other products? 

The OP read like a big ad with an apology thrown in.


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## FraserRonald (Aug 30, 2008)

Amphimir Míriel said:


> Apology accepted



Captain Needa.

What? I couldn't resist. Like this thread *doesn't* need some humour.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Aug 30, 2008)

Treebore said:


> So how do you expect him to apologize? Some form of restitution is often a part of apologizing.



  Except I'm not sure how much of that is really restitution.  Sales and free stuff have always been a part of The Le marketing.  Personally I would have felt better had it been something more along the lines of: all profits derived from products he gave reviews to, since posting those reviews, have been donated to charity X.   

Anyway, not that it really matters a whole lot.  I know it happens all the time, and not just in the RPG publishing industry.  I am one who is skeptical of most reviews, unless they come from a source that I feel I can trust, such as Crothian.


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## Farland (Aug 30, 2008)

Oh well.  It is what it is.  He committed a wrong, got caught, and apologized.  Hopefully he learned why it was wrong and will think twice in the future.  I'm willing to forgive and move on.


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## Charke (Aug 30, 2008)

Publishers, actual publishers, bad mouthing another industry professional.

Apologies, acceptances but also rejections.

Readers being directly insulting.

False accusations of sexism.

Profanity.

This certainly has brought out the best in us. Those above have certainly EARNED the right to criticise, with petty cruelty and witch hunts to expand the accusations. Even non-customers, people who admit nothing to do with the situation at all, have jumped on the band wagon to complain. Is breaking the Code of Conduct allowed when someone breaks a different rule? Reign it in a little.

I do the _Broken: The Memory of Solaris_ line. I’ve worked for and with The Le Games for years.

Do you want to know the first thing he did? He wrote me and suggested, for my sake, I jump ship and take my material elsewhere. I can only imaging how many other freelancers he’s written, giving them his blessing to walk away from this problem.

I’ve been talking about starting Charke Publishing for a while. `Le has always encouraged me every step up the ladder from writer, to artist to layout and now to publisher. The Broken line was going to move to the new company. Instead I’m going to leave it with The Le Games, and as a show of support, ask `Le to make the existing products free, until I finish the planned art revision and re-release the books sometime in 2009.

I support The Le Games and I thank everyone else who has made a show of support.
(Go ahead, steal the banner. Show your support!; http://www.charke.ca/Art/IsupportTheLeGames.jpg)

Mark Charke


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## Pinotage (Aug 30, 2008)

I have to admit I'm disappointed by this. I've known that there are some other publishers that do this - it's sometimes not really difficult when you leave a negative review and a positive one shows up almost immediatly afterwards that's practically glowing. I'm hoping that this is a sign OBS will clamp down on this sort of thing.

I'm not quite sure how to respond though. Disappointed, but I don't want to hold it against The Le who's released some good products through the years and has supported the community. I guess, apology accepted. Reluctantly.

Pinotage


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## aegean (Aug 30, 2008)

To be honest I have never heard of you nor you products - just came over after a posting about possible free stuff over a Dundjinni - will download you apologies freebies and then may buy stuff based on that.

Surprised you got caught - I would have used a 3rd person proxy, the temptation to do it has to be huge based on how easy it is to create accounts - anyway big of you to apologise.

I also would like site to indicate who actually bought the product within a review posting if that's possible.

But I do also agree with somebody saying "caveat emptor"


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## resistor (Aug 30, 2008)

While I appreciate your apology and its sincerity,  I don't think giving away some free stuff is going to magically make everything better.

I'm not writing you off forever, but you've definitely lost my trust.  It will take time to re-earn that.  You taken the right first step, but it's not an immediate thing.


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## Treebore (Aug 31, 2008)

resistor said:


> ...  I don't think giving away some free stuff is going to magically make everything better.




Its not meant to. You ever have a misunderstanding with a friend or family member, and want to do something to prove the apologies are sincere? Well, the only thing he can do along those lines is offer the products for free or discounted.

He has apologized and offered restitution in an effort to prove his sincerity. So we either forgive, or we don't.


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## resistor (Aug 31, 2008)

Treebore said:


> He has apologized and offered restitution in an effort to prove his sincerity. So we either forgive, or we don't.




Like I said, I think he's doing the right thing.  I applaud his taking _the first step_ towards regaining trust.  I forgive him, but that doesn't change the fact that my trust has been betrayed, and it will take a while to re-earn it.


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## Aus_Snow (Aug 31, 2008)

Gotta say, despite being disappointed about all this, The Le has _otherwise_ (AFAICS) been a class act. Something to consider, yes.

Whatever the case, hope things turn out OK for you in the end, 'Mr. The Le'.


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## CountPopeula (Aug 31, 2008)

Treebore said:


> Its not meant to. You ever have a misunderstanding with a friend or family member, and want to do something to prove the apologies are sincere? Well, the only thing he can do along those lines is offer the products for free or discounted.
> 
> He has apologized and offered restitution in an effort to prove his sincerity. So we either forgive, or we don't.




He could specify which products he posted false reviews for and offer refunds. That would be restitution.

This way, he loses nothing and possibly makes more money. That's not being punished.


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## Morrus (Aug 31, 2008)

aegean said:


> To be honest I have never heard of you nor you products




You have now!  Mission accomplished, I say!


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## deeprlyeh (Aug 31, 2008)

"Smacks TheLe on the hand..."

Even though I don't agree with the pratice of shilling. 
It's not uncommon. 
He got caught. 
*Then Owned the mistake.*

Moral of the story is there are dozens of shills on these websites. Here on enword, on DriveThru, and any other website.


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## Urizen (Aug 31, 2008)

deeprlyeh said:


> "Smacks TheLe on the hand..."
> 
> Even though I don't agree with the pratice of shilling.
> It's not uncommon.
> ...




*Peers closely*

Ok you have 1 post. That you in there Thele?

See. That's the problem, isn't it?

It could be him, might be someone else...

Hell it could be me.

We just don't know, now do we.

If you aren't Thele, I  think this was a bad thread for you to make your first post in, given the subject matter.


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## CountPopeula (Aug 31, 2008)

Urizen said:


> *Peers closely*
> 
> Ok you have 1 post. That you in there Thele?
> 
> ...




Maybe that was the point?

But I have to say that "Other people do it" isn't a defense with this any more than it is with, oh, say, steroids.


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## frankthedm (Aug 31, 2008)

CountPopeula said:


> But I have to say that "Other people do it" isn't a defense with this any more than it is with, oh, say, steroids.



But is this the equivalent of Steroid use in Bodybuilding, Steroid use in Pro Wrestling or Steroid use in Baseball? Cause IMHO there damnably are differences on the subject of steroids.


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## Veander (Aug 31, 2008)

Oh TheLe, how crazy of you.  I remember one night a couple years back when you were in the dnd3e chat and you just GAVE me four or five of your PDFs for free.  

I dunno.  I don't go by the overall ratings in here anyway, mostly because I assumed that wasn't the way to really get a good grasp on whether a product is good or not.  Instead I find a reviewer or two that I trust and read their conclusion... that's right I don't even read what else they write, just the end, where they say it's good or bad or somewhere in between.  

Considering the low amount of unethical behavior here, I think it's balanced by the punishment.  Also I don't think this in any way undermines your reviews Crothian.  Maybe it shows how the system isn't perfect, but again, one really shouldn't be basing their buying decisions on just the amount of stars.


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## Failed Saving Throw (Aug 31, 2008)

This really doesn't bother me. Anyone who is familiar with user-generated review sites knows that in many more popular sites, companies, authors and PR firms all write fabricated positive reviews almost as a form of viral marketing. At this point I go into reviews expecting to encounter at least a bit of that. Savvy consumers should educate themselves to know the difference between propaganda and sincerity. 

This is a pretty common topic of conversation in the forums at harmony-central.com, because over the years it became obvious that companies were posting "all 10s!" reviews of various musical instruments/products.


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## fatalibert (Aug 31, 2008)

I don't care who wrote the reviews.  If the reviews discussed the contents of the products then you provided a service to potential buyers.

Reviewers, publishers and authors take note - When I read reviews I'm generally getting a feel for content.  I couldn't possibly care less about the personal recommendation or opinions of the reviewer.

If you have to write your own review to get some extra exposure for your products then do it.  I'm sure you won't be anymore biased then a fanboy reviewer or a "I get a free sample" reviewer or "I get paid or advertising" reviewer.  And if you are I really don't care.


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## Wyrmshadows (Aug 31, 2008)

Apology accepted.

I own a few of your products and I like them. I also like that you are going to support the OGL and its going to take good new products to keep the 3.5e system alive. I am honestly surprised that you did what you did but you are doing the right thing. Good form.


Wyrmshadows


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## Wyrmshadows (Aug 31, 2008)

fatalibert said:


> I don't care who wrote the reviews. If the reviews discussed the contents of the products then you provided a service to potential buyers.
> 
> Reviewers, publishers and authors take note - When I read reviews I'm generally getting a feel for content. I couldn't possibly care less about the personal recommendation or opinions of the reviewer.
> 
> If you have to write your own review to get some extra exposure for your products then do it. I'm sure you won't be anymore biased then a fanboy reviewer or a "I get a free sample" reviewer or "I get paid or advertising" reviewer. And if you are I really don't care.




I agree. I look for reviews that contain real meat and not so much for the personal impressions of the reviewer but if I have the same tastes as the reviewer personal impressions will have some pact.

However, in regards to posting reviews to get exposure....*not ethical in the least* because it is a direct conflict of interest and ultimately can invalidate the entire review system and that would be a shame. It is not acceptable to promote yourself in the guise of an unbiased third party.



Wyrmshadows


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## Wyrmshadows (Aug 31, 2008)

Failed Saving Throw said:


> This really doesn't bother me. Anyone who is familiar with user-generated review sites knows that in many more popular sites, companies, authors and PR firms all write fabricated positive reviews almost as a form of viral marketing. At this point I go into reviews expecting to encounter at least a bit of that. Savvy consumers should educate themselves to know the difference between propaganda and sincerity.
> 
> This is a pretty common topic of conversation in the forums at harmony-central.com, because over the years it became obvious that companies were posting "all 10s!" reviews of various musical instruments/products.




Ah blame the victim..."If you fall for propaganda masquerading as an unbiased review that's your fault." How can you really educate yourself if you can't look at the book prior to purchase? You read reviews of others along with overt company copy designed to sell you a product. Many people don't live in areas with an abundance of gaming supplies that can be purchased easily as a local shop or bookstore...unless you only want to buy WoTC, Warhammer and NWoD products. 3pps rely on the internet and any threat to the social contract that state..."I won't pretend to be someone else and prmote my own materials." 

If he posted stating he was LeGames, that would be different. Do you think he would have created a seemingly unrelated alternate identity if the pupose of the reviews were meaningless? Self promotion is fine, but falsifying an objective critique is wrong.



Wyrmshadows


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## Urizen (Aug 31, 2008)

Wyrmshadows said:


> Ah blame the victim..."If you fall for propaganda masquerading as an unbiased review that's your fault." How can you really educate yourself if you can't look at the book prior to purchase? You read reviews of others along with overt company copy designed to sell you a product. Many people don't live in areas with an abundance of gaming supplies that can be purchased easily as a local shop or bookstore...unless you only want to buy WoTC, Warhammer and NWoD products. 3pps rely on the internet and any threat to the social contract that state..."I won't pretend to be someone else and prmote my own materials."
> 
> If he posted stating he was LeGames, that would be different. Do you think he would have created a seemingly unrelated alternate identity if the pupose of the reviews were meaningless? Self promotion is fine, but falsifying an objective critique is wrong.
> 
> Wyrmshadows




I agree.

Skorched Urf games used to do these little audio-snippets for their pdfs where the publisher talks about the PDF he's just released. The ones I listened to could be heard right at the product page.

In my opinion, this is a great way to comment on your own product(s) to better inform the customer, and certainly more ethical than creating an alias which will erode the trust of your fan base if you get caught.

* Off-Topic * Wyrmshadows, that quote from Conan is intense!. I might have to steal that from you


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## deeprlyeh (Sep 1, 2008)

Im never said shilling was ok just because he owned up. I did say "I don't agree with it."

I was trying to counter some of the witch hunting posts.

A good shill will have hundreds of posts. Not one or two.


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## SpiralBound (Sep 1, 2008)

*A Positive Solution*

We can all easily condemn this obviously stupid move.  There were numerous actions Le could have taken other than deception.  Why he didn't just ask the community for product reviews is beyond me.  Sometimes the simplest solutions are those that elude us the most....  If anything, Le has some soul-searching to do now that he's been forced to admit that he is capable of and willing to be this dishonest.  A tough truth to swallow.  Is this what he wants to be remembered by?  Is this who he wants to be?  But I digress...

It occurs to me that two problems remain.  One, as has been pointed out, more is needed by Le than an apology and a promo sale to regain the trust of the community.  Two, there is community-wide distrust in the entire review process, which Le's actions only added further justification for continuing.

I have an idea which could work towards resolving both concerns.  If Le is as sorry as he claims to be, then lets see some real reparation beyond more self-promotion.  Why not help rebuild trust in product reviews overall?  Why not help repair the system that his actions helped to weaken?  I propose that The Le Games become a champion for ethical and honest product reviews.

Go beyond "I got caught, sorry guys." and create a resource for customers to use in telling genuine reviews (and reviewers) from the fakes (he should be uniquely qualified to advise on this), create resources for publishers to use in developing ethical alternatives to fake reviews, help publishers find real reviewers so they won't be tempted to follow his bad example, create a resource for reviewers to use to show the community that they are genuine reviewers and not puppets for some other company.

Yes, this is a lot of work.  Should true reparation be easy?  I don't know the details of what this "ethical reviews" resource would be.  Then again, I didn't just get outed for writing fake reviews either.  From what I've seen over the years, Le is an intelligent and creative guy, I'm sure that he can develop the necessary details.   Also, this need not be a one man show either, part of championing such a cause would include bringing others into it once the initial momentum has been created.


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## Charke (Sep 1, 2008)

SpiralBound, I think that is a great idea. I just want to take a look at the logistics - can we come up with an idea that would prevent faking a review? The weakness is in the software and if we could come up with a great solution for RPGnow, maybe they would alter the way reviews are done. It doesn't need to be on `Le's shoulders. If we can fix the system - why not do it.

Lets take an example. Someone goes to an internet cafe and sets up a second acount. How would we stop that? Thinking about it, I think the answer lies in RPGnow insisting reviewers have a credit card or verified paypal account to get a "verfied" reviewer status. We take advantage of the credit card's background checks. If someone is so serrious they fake a credit card - they've got bigger problems to worry about anyway.

Does RPGnow require a paypal/credit card and is there any system in play to detect duplication? The latter part, probably not but I don't know.

Mark Charke


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## Ranger REG (Sep 1, 2008)

Meh. I rarely read the product reviews section.

I come here on this messageboard to get average joe gamer's reviews, despite the flood of negativities and "this product sucks!" threads.


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## SpiralBound (Sep 2, 2008)

Charke said:


> SpiralBound, I think that is a great idea. I just want to take a look at the logistics - can we come up with an idea that would prevent faking a review? The weakness is in the software and if we could come up with a great solution for RPGnow, maybe they would alter the way reviews are done.




I don't think that a technical solution is the answer - that way will only result in the proponents of the 'chosen system' engaging in an arms race to build a better mouse trap, with those who want to defraud the system anteing up to meet any improvements in the technical safeguards.  We can see this happening already in the 'war on spam'.  Instead, I think a more elegant and defensible method would be a more social approach.  I'm thinking of a registry of 'known reviewers'...  Each would have a public profile of what they're reviewed that would include specifics like the location (URL) and date of each review, as well as a profile of the reviewer.  This could even be a wiki-driven system so that the community could be self-policing... Say, doesn't EnWorld have a community wiki? 



Charke said:


> It doesn't need to be on `Le's shoulders. If we can fix the system - why not do it.




I'm not against creating such a resource, however my original intent was to put forth a way for Le to regain some of the community trust he's lost by being the one who spearheads such an initiative.  I was giving him a sugestion on something that would "show rather than tell" everyone the he really did mean what he said in his original post.  Taking this away from him by doing it myself before he even has a chance to decide if he'd like to take up the gauntlet doesn't really seem fair.   Let's give The Le Games a day or two to decide if this idea appeals to him before jumping in ourselves.  If he does, then we can both contribute with ideas.


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## Lonely Tylenol (Sep 2, 2008)

Anyone who bases a purchase on the number of stars a product has after 1 or 2 reviews deserves to wind up with much worse products than The Le Games has to offer.

I might condemn this sort of action if it were anything worth worrying about.  But it's not, so I can't work up any kind of righteous indignation.  Try me again when you're lying about your credentials on a job interview I'm performing or your record of public service when running for office.  If I can buy a sandwich for more than I'd pay for a The Le PDF, I can't imagine feeling wronged by some review padding.


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## PenAndSword (Sep 3, 2008)

Many people here have stated that The's actions are no good, but now that he's sorry it's ok.  It's not.    I provided artwork for the man.  He wrote me a letter of recomendation.  I put it in my resume.  There are a bunch of potential employers out there who are going to look The up, and a big red flag is to appear on it.  My name is on that flag.  There are many employers who won't look any further then that flag.  I may not have done anything wrong, but I'm attached to it.  I don't have to put that letter on my resume anymore, but it's already out there.  And even if it has no effect on my career whatsoever, it hurts ME.  I'm a professional, I don't do this.  An apology because he got caught is nice, but please remember that his lies affect everyone attached to his bad name.


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## Morrus (Sep 3, 2008)

PenAndSword said:


> He wrote me a letter of recomendation.  I put it in my resume.  There are a bunch of potential employers out there who are going to look The up, and a big red flag is to appear on it.




So take it off your resume.

I think you're overstating the case massively.  Nobody's gonna look it up.  If some do, they'll look at his website.  If they stumble across this issue, they won't connect it to you.  You're worrying about nothing.


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## Ranger REG (Sep 4, 2008)

PenAndSword said:


> Many people here have stated that The's actions are no good, but now that he's sorry it's ok.  It's not.    I provided artwork for the man.  He wrote me a letter of recomendation.  I put it in my resume.  There are a bunch of potential employers out there who are going to look The up, and a big red flag is to appear on it.  My name is on that flag.  There are many employers who won't look any further then that flag.  I may not have done anything wrong, but I'm attached to it.  I don't have to put that letter on my resume anymore, but it's already out there.  And even if it has no effect on my career whatsoever, it hurts ME.  I'm a professional, I don't do this.  An apology because he got caught is nice, but please remember that his lies affect everyone attached to his bad name.



Did this happened to you already? Did his name already cost you a possible job?


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## joela (Sep 4, 2008)

*resume*



Morrus said:


> So take it off your resume.
> 
> I think you're overstating the case massively.  Nobody's gonna look it up.  If some do, they'll look at his website.  If they stumble across this issue, they won't connect it to you.  You're worrying about nothing.





What Morrus said. You drew some art for the guy. Unless you did something in addition, i.e., so-called "joined" him in his reviews, I don't see employers connecting you and TLe. (In fact, I'd be suspicious if some employer did try to "hold" you somehow responsible. Especially if trying to use said incident to reduce your rates....)


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## joela (Sep 4, 2008)

*forgive*



TheLe said:


> I hope that it is within your heart to forgive me for what I have done, and perhaps regain your trust.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> ...




_"To err is human; to forgive is divine." -- Alexander Pope_

As a DM, I'm a god, so of course I'll forgive you. 

Once


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