# The Infamous Spiked Chain Madness



## sjmiller

I have read several threads which allude to a Human Fighter build that uses a series of feats for a spiked chain that borders on obscene.  The thing is, nobody actually shows what this build is, they just talk about it.  I understand it can be done with just the core books in both 3.0 and 3.5, but I can't say that I have ever seen it done.  Could someone please point me to this build, so I can look at it?  I am curious to see why everyone gets up in arms about it, but it is hard to do until I have seen it.


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## Nifft

Try here.

Cheers, -- N


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## frankthedm

_Exotic prof. Spiked chain_ and _Enlarge person _ grant 20 feet of reach. means foes cant get you you without taking AoO's

Thats bad enough. But if you have some dex to spare Combat reflexes lets you get AoOs on multiple foes.

But the real cheese come in with Combat expertise and Improved trip [int 13]. With that, you take your AoO as a trip and most likely put foes on their ass as trip only uses Str [or Dex] and Size mods {You are large [+4] and also have +4 from the Improved trip feat]. After that puts the foe on the ground, you take your follow up attack.[+4 to hit the prone victim]

Now to Stand Up the foe has to draw an AoO, while he is still suffering the penalty from being prone. Oh and if the foe has to move to attack you, you’ll get another AoO [movement] and repeat the process.

Now as you get some attack bonus, you might want to consider power attack. Touch attacks are easy to make anyways and since your plan is to be attacking prone foes for damage with a two handed weapon, -4 to hit for +8 to damage might be a fair trade.

Do note that once you get more than 10' reach, you have to use the 1, then 2, 1, then 2 method for counting diagonally across squares.







Also when makng Melee attacks against those who are not adjacent to you, you determine cover as a ranged weapon. So good placement can bone you out of a few AoOs.

And here is how to use cover to deny the enlarged combatant all AoOs in the above situation. Trolls might not be tactical enough to do so, but this is just to show how to use cover to avoid AoOs.

http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/1118/aoodenialtk1.gif


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## Darklone

Try a Psychic warrior with Expansion... even more size and you can do everything by yourself. And hitting isn't a problem for spiked chain dudes as mentioned above.


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## sjmiller

Darklone said:
			
		

> Try a Psychic warrior with Expansion... even more size and you can do everything by yourself. And hitting isn't a problem for spiked chain dudes as mentioned above.



Considering my loathing of psionics in D&D I won't be using this option, but it is interesting none the less.

Thanks to everyone who has given information so far.  I see now why I never read the WotC message boards.  They all assume that you own every book that is out there, and use them all too.

It's an interesting take on building a Fighter character.  I might build a couple to use in an encounter with my overly cocky (and overly large) gaming group.  Perhaps with someone to deflect missile weapons or lightning bolts & fireballs.


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## VanRichten

What is the level of character you wish to make.  Give me the stats and I can make you one with just the PHB and DMG if you like.


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## sjmiller

VanRichten said:
			
		

> What is the level of character you wish to make.  Give me the stats and I can make you one with just the PHB and DMG if you like.



I was thinking of making a couple of them of either 10th or 12th level.  The part of 9 adventurers are all 9th level, and I would like to have something provide a respectable challenge to them.  Stats are entirely flexible, to be perfectly honest.  I usually just write down ones that work for what I want.


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## Folly

The spike chain fighter centers around 2 feats(with 1 prereq feat) and 1 PrC: improved trip, improved disarm, Exotic Weapon Master. Then you use enlarge person and/or any other buff that increases strength and size since trip and disarm are based off the two.  EWM gives you the additional abilities of flurry, AoO through cover, and +2 to your trip checks. Its not necessarily just a human fighter. For example throw in a few levels of knight to cause the area you threaten to be considered ruff terrain (though I think this is only if they start their round inside your threatened area but with trip you can reliable do this)

The build has a total of 4 stats (STR, DEX, CON, INT) 

1:Exotic, Combat Expertise, Pick(Improved Disarm / Improved Trip)
2ick(Improved Disarm / Improved Trip)
3:Combat Reflexes		
4:Weapon Focus		
6:Weapon Spec, (Open Feat)
8:Weapon Mastery		

This is the bare bones of the build. I believe there are some racial feats from somewhere to give humans the powerful build trait, that would also be good.


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## Folly

As a side note, I do not find this build to be that particularly powerful, compared to other well thought out fighter builds. It is amazing against humanoids, but against monstrous foes it loses much of its umph.


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## sjmiller

Folly said:
			
		

> The spike chain fighter centers around 2 feats(with 1 prereq feat) and 1 PrC: improved trip, improved disarm, Exotic Weapon Master. Then you use enlarge person and/or any other buff that increases strength and size since trip and disarm are based off the two.  EWM gives you the additional abilities of flurry, AoO through cover, and +2 to your trip checks. Its not necessarily just a human fighter. For example throw in a few levels of knight to cause the area you threaten to be considered ruff terrain (though I think this is only if they start their round inside your threatened area but with trip you can reliable do this)
> 
> The build has a total of 4 stats (STR, DEX, CON, INT)
> 
> 1:Exotic, Combat Expertise, Pick(Improved Disarm / Improved Trip)
> 2ick(Improved Disarm / Improved Trip)
> 3:Combat Reflexes
> 4:Weapon Focus
> 6:Weapon Spec, (Open Feat)
> 8:Weapon Mastery
> 
> This is the bare bones of the build. I believe there are some racial feats from somewhere to give humans the powerful build trait, that would also be good.



Okay, so I figured out that Exotic Weapon Master comes from Masters of the Wild (thank you Wikipedia!).  I have no idea where Weapon Mastery comes from.  Also, you mention a Knight class.  There are about two dozen classes with knight in their name, so I am not sure which one you mean there.  Other than that, sounds interesting.


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## Nifft

sjmiller said:
			
		

> Okay, so I figured out that Exotic Weapon Master comes from Masters of the Wild (thank you Wikipedia!).



 Actually, Complete Warrior. 







			
				sjmiller said:
			
		

> I have no idea where Weapon Mastery comes from.



 PHB-II, same place as the Knight.

 -- N


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## sjmiller

sjmiller said:
			
		

> Okay, so I figured out that Exotic Weapon Master comes from Masters of the Wild (thank you Wikipedia!).





			
				Nifft said:
			
		

> Actually, Complete Warrior.



Which is probably quite different than the one from Masters of the Wild, as that one is much more tailored to the Barbarian than the Fighter.


			
				sjmiller said:
			
		

> I have no idea where Weapon Mastery comes from.





			
				Nifft said:
			
		

> PHB-II, same place as the Knight.



Well, that explains why I have never heard of it.  I really don't own a lot of D&D books, and I don't find many of them all that necessary, to be perfectly honest.  I got a good deal on the 3.0 class books, but outside those and some of the monster books, I have very few D&D books.  I know, that puts me outside the norm, but I kind of like it here.


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## Kaisoku

Folly said:
			
		

> As a side note, I do not find this build to be that particularly powerful, compared to other well thought out fighter builds. It is amazing against humanoids, but against monstrous foes it loses much of its umph.




This is why you pick up the Stand Still feat (in the SRD for 3.5, expanded psionic handbook). Forego damage on your AoO, and instead the target needs to roll Reflex save vs DC 10 + your damage roll or stop movement.

Useful for when fighting extremely large, four-legged, and strong creatures. That can be a massive Reflex save to beat and it stops them from closing as long as your reach beats theirs.


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## moritheil

Kaisoku said:
			
		

> This is why you pick up the Stand Still feat (in the SRD for 3.5, expanded psionic handbook). Forego damage on your AoO, and instead the target needs to roll Reflex save vs DC 10 + your damage roll or stop movement.
> 
> Useful for when fighting extremely large, four-legged, and strong creatures. That can be a massive Reflex save to beat and it stops them from closing as long as your reach beats theirs.




The classic combo is Hold the Line + Stand Still + reach weapon + Combat Reflexes.


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## VanRichten

I will come up with something.  If you like I will use the 3.0 but I think the 3.5 Core books would do better.  I won't hit on anything outside that.


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## Deset Gled

Folly said:
			
		

> As a side note, I do not find this build to be that particularly powerful, compared to other well thought out fighter builds. It is amazing against humanoids, but against monstrous foes it loses much of its umph.





My opinion exactly.  Any spiked chain build is ridiculously heavy on feats, turning the fighter into a one trick pony that just ain't that great against mosters.

Also, almost every "broken" build is based on the assumption that you will have Enlarge Person on continuously.  IME, keeping a 1 min/level buff from the party wizard on 24/7 just isn't feasible.  Also, people sometimes forget that EP has a -2 Dex penalty, which limits the use of Combat Reflexes.

On the subject of ability scores, you also need godly stats to pull the build off.  High stength (since spiked chain damage sucks, and for tripping), high dex (for Combat Reflexes, remembering the EP penalty), high int (for Improved Trip/Disarm), and high con (which every fighter needs).  Having these stats basically means you're playing in a high powered game anyway, where the spiked chain wielder is no more powerful that your twinked archer or two-handed power attacker.


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## Rugult

One of my players is currently going with this build and has a belt that permanently casts Enlarge Person.  (Yes, he is a Apache Chief).

I didn't think this was too overpowered until I saw the stand still feat.  Now I am really having problems seeing how to get past this without spell casters getting involved.


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## sjmiller

VanRichten said:
			
		

> I will come up with something.  If you like I will use the 3.0 but I think the 3.5 Core books would do better.  I won't hit on anything outside that.



Well, considering the fact that we are playing a 3.0 game (we never felt the need to change to 3.5), I think using the 3.0 core books would be best.  It is most kind of you to do this, and I greatly appreciate it.


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## Set

sjmiller said:
			
		

> It's an interesting take on building a Fighter character.  I might build a couple to use in an encounter with my overly cocky (and overly large) gaming group.  Perhaps with someone to deflect missile weapons or lightning bolts & fireballs.




At least one of the Spiked Chain builds linked to above involves a couple levels of Monk, which would give the character Evasion and possibly missile deflection.

There are various ways to get Large size or Reach 10 ft. without Expansion or Enlarge Person, such as designing the NPCs as a Large race.  An Ogre Magi Sorcerer who has trained his Ogre minions to use this style (to keep people away from him, while he uses his spell-likes and spells) could be one variation.


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## sjmiller

Deset Gled said:
			
		

> Any spiked chain build is ridiculously heavy on feats, turning the fighter into a one trick pony that just ain't that great against mosters.



The funny thing is, I am planning on using this *as* a monster!  It's mostly to show the players that wicked creatures do exist and can counter a lot of their "one trick pony" characters.


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## Folly

Don't forget you can disarm any held item. So not only can you bone the fighter, but the cleric as well (no Divine Focus prevents a lot of spells)


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## Felix

sjmiller said:
			
		

> The funny thing is, I am planning on using this *as* a monster!  It's mostly to show the players that wicked creatures do exist and can counter a lot of their "one trick pony" characters.



The spiked chain wielding monster will seem overpowered to your party because he will be facing a group of bipedal Medium-sized opponents. Against this particular kind of creature, the spiked chain build does well. Against other kind of creatures, it's better to have a Spear (for lockdown builds) or a Greatsword (for damage).

EDIT:



			
				Kaisoku said:
			
		

> This is why you pick up the Stand Still feat (in the SRD for 3.5, expanded psionic handbook). Forego damage on your AoO, and instead the target needs to roll Reflex save vs DC 10 + your damage roll or stop movement.
> 
> Useful for when fighting extremely large, four-legged, and strong creatures. That can be a massive Reflex save to beat and it stops them from closing as long as your reach beats theirs.



This will only really be helpful if your reach is 10' larger than your opponents: they don't incur an AoO when they enter your first threatened square, but when they leave it. So they'll be 10' within your threatened area when you stop them. Likely they'll be able to pound on you at this point. You'd have to ready an action to hit and 5' step away to avoid the hit (assuming their reach is 10' shorter than yours), and in that case you've given up all your iterative attacks to get in one attack that doesn't damage them. _If_ they decide to attack you.

I imagine an answer to this dilemma is: "Well, there's a feat that..." There may be, but the spiked chain build is so feat-intensive that it almost becomes prohibitive.

Exotic Weapon Prof
Combat Reflexes (Dex 13, for multiple AoO's)
Combat Expertise (Int 13, for prereq)
Improved Trip (For +4 trip bonus and attack afterwards)
Improved Disarm (To keep people from holding things in your reach)
Stand Still (vs non medium bipedal foes)
Weapon Finesse (?) (For attack, in case your Str score isn't that good)
Power Attack (?) (Str 13, for damage, in case your Str score isn't that good)

And even with all of that, you still have ranged opponents. Sure, the Greatsword wielder will be melee-focused too, but he doesn't need to pour so many resources into his specialty to make it viable.


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## VanRichten

Here you go SJ.  This is a character you can throw in as an encounter that will give your players a good run for their money.   For all of those in the forum do note this a character made using 3.0 Rules and nothing more than the 3.0 Player's Handbook, Monster Manual, and Dungeon Master's Guide.

(Note Attributes were taken from the stats for a Level 1 NPC Fighter in the DMG, and then Half Fiend Template, Plus Levels and Magic Item Effects.  Magic items were based on the DMG chart for determining gold based on level.)

Human Half-Fiend Fighter

Level:  12 (3 for Half-Fiend, 9 for Fighter)

Hit Points:  9d10 (81 Hps Avg)

STR:  22 (+6), DEX:  18 (+4), CON:  16 (+3), INT:  14 (+2), WIS:  12 (+1), CHA:  10 (+0) 

FORTITUDE:  12, REFLEX:  10, WILLPOWER:  7

BASE ATTACK BONUS:  +9/+4

AC:  26, TOUCH AC:  16, FLAT FOOTED AC:  22

SQ:  Darkvision 60', Immune to Poison, Acid/Cold/Electricity/Fire Resistance:  20, _Darkness_ 3x/day, _Desecrate_ 1x/day, _Unholy Blight_ 1x/day, _Poison_ 3x/day, _Contagion_ 1x/day

FULL ATTACK (Natural):  Claw/Claw:  +10/+10, 1d4 + 3/1d4 + 3, Bite:  +15, 1d6 + 9

FULL ATTACK (Spiked Chain, Main Hand):  +13/+8, 2d4 + 7
FULL ATTACK (Spiked Chain, Off - Hand):  +13/+8, 2d4 + 4

STANDARD ATTACK (Spiked Chain):  +17, 2d4 + 10

FEATS:  Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain), Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Ambidexterity, Two-Weapon Fighting, Blind Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain)

Weapon:  +1 Wounding Spiked Chain

Armor:  +2 Light Fortification Chain Shirt

Shield:  +1 Animated Large Steel Shield

Hands:  Guantlets of Ogre Power

Fingers:  Ring of Protection +2, Ring of the Ram (w/50 Charges)

Feet:  Slippers of Spider Climbing

Neck:  Necklace of Fireballs Type VI

Back:  Cloak of Resistance +3

Quiver:  Javelin of Lightning x5

Carried:  Potion of Blur, Potion of Haste x2, Potion of Enlarge, Potion of Cure Serious Wounds (X4), Potion of Cat's Grace, Potion of Aid, Oil of Slipperiness (x2), Tangle Foots Bags (x4), Thunderstone (x4), 30 Gold

Tips for Playing

Play this character intelligently as he does have a higher than average INT for a fighter.

Use the Oil of Slipperiness on himself and Potion of Cat's Grace before the encounter takes place.

Have him use the slippers for running up walls and other sorts of barriers and use his reach with the chain to attack foes from those positions.  Since he will most likely be on higher ground this gives him a +1 Bonus to Attack.

Use Thunderstones on any Arcane Casters and Tangle Foot Bags on Divine Casters.

Target your Rogues or other high dexterity based characters with Disarms/Trips.

Target the Fighter types or those Strength types with the necklace of fireballs.  Or even better have the area they are fighting coated with the extra Oil of Slipperiness.

Trick to this guy is keep him at range from the party.  Keep him mobile and you should give the party a run for their money.


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## sjmiller

VanRichten said:
			
		

> Here you go SJ.  This is a character you can throw in as an encounter that will give your players a good run for their money.   For all of those in the forum do note this a character made using 3.0 Rules and nothing more than the 3.0 Player's Handbook, Monster Manual, and Dungeon Master's Guide. <snip: character>



Fascinating!  A most interesting character indeed.  I can tell you that I would have never thought of it, or if I had I doubt I would have come up with this particular combination.  Thank you very much!  I will let you know how the encounter turns out with my adventuring group.  I think I have just the place for them to encounter him and he may prove to be a recurring villain.


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## VanRichten

Thanks and glad I could help.  Incidentally if you want to give it some flair figure that his fiendish half is that of a Kyton (chain devil).


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## sjmiller

VanRichten said:
			
		

> FULL ATTACK (Spiked Chain, Main Hand):  +13/+8, 2d4 + 7
> FULL ATTACK (Spiked Chain, Off - Hand):  +13/+8, 2d4 + 4
> 
> STANDARD ATTACK (Spiked Chain):  +17, 2d4 + 10
> 
> FEATS:  Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain), Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Ambidexterity, Two-Weapon Fighting, Blind Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain)
> 
> Weapon:  +1 Wounding Spiked Chain



Okay, I quoted this stuff because I am a bit confused, or at least unsure about a few things.  A spiked chain is a large weapon, which means a medium-sized character needs 2 hands to use it.  The Full Attack shows using a spiked chain in both hands, or am I mistaken?  Even so, he only has the one (rather nasty) spiked chain.  Now, is the full attack listed for when he is taking the Enlarge potion?  That would make sense then, because bing large means he could wield it one-handed.  That would also explain the Two-weapon Fighting as well.  Just trying to make sure I am reading this right.  It's not often I use elaborately created characters like this.


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## eamon

I'm not familiar with 3.0 anymore, but was the spiked chain merely a one-handed weapon?

In any case, if your party is quick-witted, this wont work well:

Any tumbling character will avoid AoO's almost entirely, and casters can hardly fail to cast defensively at those levels - if you can even see them, since many will be able to be invisible.

Another thing: even if your trip modifier is 10 higher than your opponents, you have a 1% chance to be tripped yourself... if your advantage is +8, that chance is 3%, if it's only +4 it is 10%.  Unless you're much stronger than your opponent, you will eventually be tripped yourself.

The tactic is good; but it's especially so when your biggest strength is somehow exploitable - and that strength lies in slowing others down.  If your side of the combat has the superior ranged firepower and/or good defenses, it works great.  Alone... it's not as easy; and you'll be outclassed in terms of damage output by fighters focusing on that so there is some trade-off.


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## Felix

sjmiller said:
			
		

> Okay, I quoted this stuff because I am a bit confused, or at least unsure about a few things.  A spiked chain is a large weapon, which means a medium-sized character needs 2 hands to use it.  The Full Attack shows using a spiked chain in both hands, or am I mistaken?  Even so, he only has the one (rather nasty) spiked chain.  Now, is the full attack listed for when he is taking the Enlarge potion?  That would make sense then, because bing large means he could wield it one-handed.  That would also explain the Two-weapon Fighting as well.  Just trying to make sure I am reading this right.  It's not often I use elaborately created characters like this.



He did note that he was using 3.0 rules when the chain was a double weapon; he also has Ambidexterity as a feat.


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## VanRichten

To SJ:  Those stats are based on not having the Enlarge Potion in effect.  I left that because you might not want to use it.  Adjust as normal when using it. Yes he is using it in two hands the reason for the off hand attack damage being slightly less is that when using two weapons you get only 1/2 the strength bonus to the off hand even when using a double weapon.

To Eamon:  I gather you might have missed the fact that the character has Improved Trip.  Also remember it is difficult to hit what you cannot see i.e.  Spell like ability of Darkness.  Don't forget he also has Unholy Blight which most casters will not be likely to get past.  Also I covered the invisible factor with the Blind Fighting Feat.  And remember there are multiple things character has to slow down a group of adventurers i.e. Spike chain + feats, tanglefoot bags, spell like abilities, Ring of the Ram, etc.  This character is made to be a difficult fight and is not entirely based on just the Spiked Chain.  What the OP asked for was a character that could give his players a run for their money that uses the spiked chain, not a munchkin character based around the spiked chain.  So I gave him what he wanted.


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## frankthedm

Felix said:
			
		

> He did note that he was using 3.0 rules when the chain was a double weapon; he also has Ambidexterity as a feat.



Only time it was a double weapon in 3.0 was _for_ the Master of Chains PRC. You had to have levels in the PRC to get tyhat effect.


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## eamon

VanRichten said:
			
		

> To Eamon:  I gather you might have missed the fact that the character has Improved Trip.  Also remember it is difficult to hit what you cannot see i.e.  Spell like ability of Darkness.  Don't forget he also has Unholy Blight which most casters will not be likely to get past.  Also I covered the invisible factor with the Blind Fighting Feat.  And remember there are multiple things character has to slow down a group of adventurers i.e. Spike chain + feats, tanglefoot bags, spell like abilities, Ring of the Ram, etc.  This character is made to be a difficult fight and is not entirely based on just the Spiked Chain.  What the OP asked for was a character that could give his players a run for their money that uses the spiked chain, not a munchkin character based around the spiked chain.  So I gave him what he wanted.




I think it's a great NPC - the attention to the details like tanglefoot bags make him much more threatening and well-rounded, and much more memorable too!  I just wanted to point out that tripping is risky business since (even with improved trip) if you fail to trip an opponent the opponent can try and countertrip, and  that even with a solid advantage on your trip check there's a very real chance that you will fail your opposed check and that the opponent will succeed in tripping you.  By the way, in 3.0, Improved Trip didn't grant the +4 benefit.  Tripping invisible creatures is more difficult not just because of the miss-chance, but also because you can't take AoO's against them.  Anyways, spiked chain tripping is not a bad ability, but it's not as easy to really break as it sometimes seems - and as the title "Spike Chain Madness" seems to imply.

But, to reiterate, I don't think it's a bad NPC by all means - it looks like a lot of fun!


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## Storm Raven

frankthedm said:
			
		

> Only time it was a double weapon in 3.0 was _for_ the Master of Chains PRC. You had to have levels in the PRC to get tyhat effect.




And, if I remember correctly, when a Master of Chains used the spiked chain as a double weapon, he gave up the reach attribute of the weapon. The choice was, essentially, extra attacks, or reach, but not both.

Other than the Master of Chains special ability, the spiked chain has never been a double weapon in the 3.0/3.5 rules.


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## Kaisoku

Felix said:
			
		

> This will only really be helpful if your reach is 10' larger than your opponents: they don't incur an AoO when they enter your first threatened square, but when they leave it. So they'll be 10' within your threatened area when you stop them. Likely they'll be able to pound on you at this point. You'd have to ready an action to hit and 5' step away to avoid the hit (assuming their reach is 10' shorter than yours), and in that case you've given up all your iterative attacks to get in one attack that doesn't damage them. _If_ they decide to attack you.
> 
> ...
> 
> And even with all of that, you still have ranged opponents. Sure, the Greatsword wielder will be melee-focused too, but he doesn't need to pour so many resources into his specialty to make it viable.




The point wasn't to make an unbeatable force. The point is simply to give him options against creatures that are strong against tripping. It only works on AoO, it only stops them, no prone, no bonus to hit for being prone, no additional attack for damage, no damage done at all. I've personally opted to NOT use Stand Still to do the extra damage instead.

Also, as per the rules:
"An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character’s turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character’s turn)."

I can't remember where I read it as well, probably a FAQ entry, but the words "An AoO occurs before the event that provoked it" seem very familiar.

This is why when a person standing up from prone provokes an AoO, you can't trip them again, since your AoO is happening while they are still prone (before the action that provoked it is completed). You can only do other things, like disarm or damage them.

What saves a person from being tripped forever, also stops a person from moving out of the square with Stand Still. It can't be both ways.


It's not like this is unbeatable, and the primary reason for using this is so that a Fighter can keep things near him to beat on him... they will have to find a different way to get away from him. Such as doing something that doesn't provoke an AoO. Tumble, 5' step, withdraw, all wouldn't provoke.
There's a host of conditions that would prevent the Fighter from making AoOs, including running out. Being large and huge for the reach reduces the Dex of the character.

But I should stop here... don't want to give my DM more ideas to mess up my character.


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