# ATTENTION: Story Hour in Print? (Authors and Readers, come in!)



## Wulf Ratbane (Mar 11, 2004)

Hello folks,

During my last ENworld chat I mentioned that I'd like to publish some of the Story Hours here. I've been giving it more serious thought in the time since.

I thought I would open it up for discussion among the authors and readers here, to get an idea of interest here first.

Let me get it out of the way first that it's not my intent for Bad Axe to make money from this, though I am willing to organize and provide some financial support where needed, provided I can recoup my costs!

*Authors*
Would you be interested in seeing your Story Hour in print? Would you only be interested if you felt you could make a decent profit for each book (though sales numbers are expected to be low)? Would you do it for the love? Would you not do it under any circumstances?

*Readers*
Would you be interested in a print version of your favorite Story Hours? Would you be willing to pay more than the retail price of a standard paperback to have it; or do you consider the work to be less than market value-- or even free!-- because these are not "professional" authors and, hey, you can read it here for free?

Those are my basic questions, reflected in the Multiple Choice poll above. I encourage discussion here in the thread!


Wulf


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## Piratecat (Mar 11, 2004)

On the poll above, note that "standard price" is around $8.99 US for a good sized (300 page) paperback novel.

I think this is a great idea. Assuming that people were interested in them - never a given! - I would probably split my story hour up into two volumes (political and underdark/ghouls) in order to keep the page count reasonable. I'd have to see how it came out.

Wulf was telling me earlier that with an isbn number they would even be listed on Amazon. Now _that's_ vanity press material!

Note that authors would have to keep a strict eye on product identity issues; I'd run into problems using the names illithids and kuo toa, for instance, and might have to work around that.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Mar 11, 2004)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Wulf was telling me earlier that with an isbm number they would even be listed on Amazon. Now _that's_ vanity press material!




It's ISBN, Kev. B 'N'.

BM is something else.   


Wulf


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## arwink (Mar 11, 2004)

Interesting idea.

Personally, I'd pay for the storyhour - as long as what I was getting was a storyhour rather than a DnD story being packaged as a novel.  

For me, half the interest in reading a storyhour is seeing the mechanics behind them - character notes, DM commentary, monster stats, new spells and interesting ideas.


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## Plane Sailing (Mar 11, 2004)

I don't really have any illusions about the literary quality of my storyhour, especially compared to many of the others here. If I thought anyone would be interested I'd gladly contribute towards something in print though (heck, I've got little enough to be vain about ). Realistically though, even though I've been a storyhour author for a very long time (it starts with a threadid of 122!) I wouldn't expect to be included.

More significantly then, as a reader. I'd be prepared to purchase a book which included some of the great storyhours on here. A lot of them are great reads for one reason or another, and would be well worth having. My guess is that one of the big problems is that the storyhours tend to be longer than people realise, probably coming out at several hundred A4 pages in many cases.

Good for you, Wulf, for even getting to the "considering" stage of this.

Cheers


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## el-remmen (Mar 11, 2004)

Personally,I would love it even if I did not make a penny off of it.

Like P.Kitty, mine would have to be two or more volumes because of its length, but unlike him I would have very little to tweak in way of names - as I tend to name things for my own setting.

Hmm, though I guess 'quaggoths' would have to change - but what about flail snails? 

As for who would buy it?  I can't speak for my readers, but I am sure my players and the  associated circle of gamers I know would all proudly shell out some cash to have an official Aquerra book of any kind. . .


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## Lela (Mar 11, 2004)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> BM is something else.




And someone else.  But that's a whole different story.


As a matter of fact, one of my players mentioned this idea to me after Saturday's game.  I commented that I might post it.  But never did.

I know I'd definitally be interested and I know at least one of my players would be.  Other members of my group also tend to read the Iconic novels WotC comes out with and it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to move over to quality D&D work (uh, I mean _other_ D&D work, yeah).

Generally, that's only if it's in book form though.  Not .pdfs; even printed ones.  The reflective white paper just isn't conductive to enjoyable reading, unlike the darker background we have here.  And it seems too much like a _huge_ research paper anyway.  For us college students that inspires nightmares.  us many of them don't have internet access or prefer not to be online all that much.

I'm betting there is a large untapped market who'd love these stories but get caught in the online trap and never get to them.

As another note, should Amazon pick it up we'd also have that Customers who shopped/browsed the D&D rule books and novels also shopped/bought these books.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Mar 12, 2004)

arwink said:
			
		

> Interesting idea.
> 
> Personally, I'd pay for the storyhour - as long as what I was getting was a storyhour rather than a DnD story being packaged as a novel.
> 
> For me, half the interest in reading a storyhour is seeing the mechanics behind them - character notes, DM commentary, monster stats, new spells and interesting ideas.




Interesting you should say that.

With enough game mechanics (ie, 5% Open Content) we could even put the d20 logo on them. 

It's an option... all ideas are welcome here.

The real trick is in the logistics. I note an early surge in, "Standard Prices only" which is unfortunate, since everyone must realize we aren't printing several hundred thousand books to achieve an economy of scale... In most cases we'd be lucky to sell 1000...

Wulf


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## Len (Mar 12, 2004)

I didn't vote because I'm somewhere between "standard bookstore price" and "nothing, no way, no how". I'm not going to rule out paying anything, but I have to admit that I'm used to reading Story Hours for free (or rather as one of the benefits of being a Community Supporter).

Despite my wishy-washy-ness, I want to mention a couple of things. First, I don't consider my favourite Story Hour authors to be inferior because they're "not professional". When I choose to spend my time reading a Story Hour instead of a "real" book it's because that's what I want to read.

Second, I was going to say this, but arwink already said it, so I'll quote him:


			
				arwink said:
			
		

> Personally, I'd pay for the storyhour - as long as what I was getting was a storyhour rather than a DnD story being packaged as a novel.
> 
> For me, half the interest in reading a storyhour is seeing the mechanics behind them - character notes, DM commentary, monster stats, new spells and interesting ideas.



I'm not sure which you have in mind, Wulf, [edit: I hadn't read your last post] but the difference between a novel and an ENWorld Story Hour will certainly affect who'd be interested in buying it and how it should be marketed.


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## Zad (Mar 12, 2004)

I think it would boggle my mind so much to be published that the money would be irrelevant.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Mar 12, 2004)

I would be thrilled to have mine be in print - hey, part one is even totally completed.  Money wouldn't be a significant consideration, though it would be nice.  At one point one of my players thought he might be able to get my SH made into a small press comic book...  The main thing for me would be retaining rights to the characters and stories.  Make rights issues author-friendly, and you'll get takers.



			
				Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> With enough game mechanics (ie, 5% Open Content) we could even put the d20 logo on them.
> Wulf




I keep pretty good notes on my NPC's and so on.  I could easily annotate my SH - the second part at least.  The first part wouldn't be possible to annotate since it was 2nd edition rules.  Though even there, a large percentage of that stuff was updated to 3rd edition, so it could be done, I suppose


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## Salthorae (Mar 12, 2004)

As an avid reader (read lurker ) of the Story Hours here I know that I would be willing to pay standard and over standard pricing to get my hands on an in pring copy of some of these SH's. I definitely understand that with the small printing runs that there would be higher costs, though I bet we'd be surprised at how many people would actually be willing to shell out money for something like that.


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## Argent Silvermage (Mar 12, 2004)

This needs a bump. I'd pay anything to see my character in print. (Vanity thy name is Bolo)


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## Wulf Ratbane (Mar 12, 2004)

Does someone more familiar with the polls system here want to tell me why certain choices are italicized up there? Is it a record of my own vote?

I am still doing the math on this, and it's not looking great, so I am working on solutions to keep the costs down.

One solution might be to combine stories (edited down, of course) and provide several in one large anthology. Any thoughts on that?

It would help me out if various authors would do me a favor and, if you have compiled your story lately, give me a word count. (Not a page count, a word count). Since some stories are ongoing, if you can edit yourself and choose a good stopping point, give me the word count up to that point.


Wulf


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## Joshua Randall (Mar 12, 2004)

I voted for "_would pay more than standard price to have my favorite story in print_". I would happily pay up to about $20 (roughly double the cost of a paperback novel) for a nice, printed, annotated story hour. Wouldn't it be great to have Lady Despina's Virtue as a fat book, complete with the Wyre map and all the statblocks? Or what about the Temple of Elemental Evil: 20 Years After with (contact)'s evocative illustrations? (Just a couple examples -- don't feel slighted if you aren't one of those two authors.)

I'd *probably* pay for a nicely formatted PDF of these, but a bound book would be *so* much nicer. I'm not too familiar with print-on-demand, but that might be a good compromise between PDF cheapness and paperback quality.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Mar 12, 2004)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> Does someone more familiar with the polls system here want to tell me why certain choices are italicized up there? Is it a record of my own vote?




I think your guess is right, at least that's what it appears to be in my case.



			
				Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> One solution might be to combine stories (edited down, of course) and provide several in one large anthology. Any thoughts on that?




Take a page from Dickens:  Serialize!  At least major sections of the Story Hours could be split up and put into multiple books...  It could be a D20 Story Hour Magazine, almost.  Just a thought.  



			
				Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> It would help me out if various authors would do me a favor and, if you have compiled your story lately, give me a word count. (Not a page count, a word count). Since some stories are ongoing, if you can edit yourself and choose a good stopping point, give me the word count up to that point.




MSWord tells me my completed story hour is 90,644 words.


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## Plane Sailing (Mar 12, 2004)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> Does someone more familiar with the polls system here want to tell me why certain choices are italicized up there? Is it a record of my own vote?




That seems to be the case. I've noticed that on all recent polls the one that I voted for remains italicised.



			
				Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> One solution might be to combine stories (edited down, of course) and provide several in one large anthology. Any thoughts on that?
> 
> It would help me out if various authors would do me a favor and, if you have compiled your story lately, give me a word count. (Not a page count, a word count).



 Mine currently runs at about 91,000 words. Yikes!

Cheers,


I think anthologies are better than single stories, in this context it helps introduce the reader to additional writers that they otherwise wouldn't have noticed.


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## Piratecat (Mar 12, 2004)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> Does someone more familiar with the polls system here want to tell me why certain choices are italicized up there? Is it a record of my own vote?




Exactly correct. The old boards used an asterisk, but this is a little more subtle.



> One solution might be to combine stories (edited down, of course) and provide several in one large anthology. Any thoughts on that?  It would help me out if various authors would do me a favor and, if you have compiled your story lately, give me a word count.




This is a neat idea. For instance, you could combine JonRog's various story hours into one volume.

My word count is currently about 284,000. This could be divided into two books if needed, and would grow somewhat as I replaced the vague older posts with more detailed entries. Does anyone know the average words per page in a paperback? If I assume 700, that gives me over 400 pages. 

Ben, thanks again for researching this.  Too cool.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Mar 12, 2004)

Joshua Randall said:
			
		

> I'd *probably* pay for a nicely formatted PDF of these, but a bound book would be *so* much nicer. I'm not too familiar with print-on-demand, but that might be a good compromise between PDF cheapness and paperback quality.




PDF is not on the table. No electronic format is even considered. If you want electronic, you're looking at it.

The only consideration is a printed book-- whether it be hardcover or softcover.

My initial line of attack is in fact print on demand, and it's not looking great, in terms of costs. The _hard cost_ of such a book is about $5, which means you'd have to charge about $12.50 just to make sure you break even. (POD pays you the wholesale price less printing costs-- so the profit at $12.50 retail is zero.) And that's for a book at 300 pages or less-- page count goes up, cost goes up.

There are ways to work around this-- I could, for example, order books at cost, and sell them for whatever profit I like. But that means shifting the burden of shipping and handling to me, which I am not really all that keen on. One nice advantage of POD is that, armed with an ISBN number, they can print and ship directly to Amazon, Borders, Barnes and Noble, etc. But, of course, that's why you have to jack the retail price up so high-- because you'll only get paid the wholesale price less printing costs.

Regarding your ideas on maps and illustrations, I think it's a great idea. Those writers with artistic talent (contact, I'm talking to you!) have a great advantage in that regard. Ultimately, the printer doesn't care whether he's printing text, illustrations, or maps. Whatever the author cares to include will be just fine!

I am not likely to place much stock in the poll above, by the way, until there are enough votes to be statistically relevant to me. If you are an author or reader who wants to see this happen, pimp this poll.


Wulf


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## Wulf Ratbane (Mar 12, 2004)

As a point of reference for those of you posting your word count, my current print projects run 700-800 words per page.

It may be more or less for a paperback work of fiction.

But both KidC and PlaneSailing, by my calculation, just crack 100 pages. That's not really a YIKES! at all. In fact, I'd say that's too small for its own book, but just about perfect for an anthology.

So now I'm thinking about a big fat hardcover-- LEATHER!-- with lots and lots of authors inside. Now see, for 1000 pages or more in hardcover, I'd pay $50 bucks or more... We're talking bookshelf quality hardcover, of course, not "Roleplaying Game" hardcover.


Wulf


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## Wulf Ratbane (Mar 12, 2004)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> My word count is currently about 284,000.




That's almost one view per word!


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## carpedavid (Mar 12, 2004)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> So now I'm thinking about a big fat hardcover-- LEATHER!-- with lots and lots of authors inside. Now see, for 1000 pages or more in hardcover, I'd pay $50 bucks or more... We're talking bookshelf quality hardcover, of course, not "Roleplaying Game" hardcover.



Mmmm...leather... As a bibliophile, I'd gladly pay a premium for a nice, leatherbound, archive-quality volume that can proudly sit on my bookshelf. I'm also easily tempted by gold leaf in nearly any form.

I'd rather pay $50 for a leatherbound volume than $20 for a print-on-demand paperback, but I have a feeling that I'm in the minority in that regard.

As an aside, my own incomplete, poorly-written story hour currently weighs in at ~28,000 words, which, at 800 words/page, is just about 35 pages (interestingly, this means that, in Word, at 10 pt Times New Roman, I seem to write at an average of 800 words/page).


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## Radiating Gnome (Mar 12, 2004)

I'm just tossing in another voice here -- I have already spent hours printing out story hours so I could read them on paper over the past year and a half or so.  It would be worth a lot to have them in book form.  No doubt about it.  

I think I'd really encourage the authors to think about including more than nominal game content. A detailed appendix, with campaign world notes, new monsters, NPCs, PCs, House Rules, etc.  Many of you are doing that already in the rogues gallery.  There may be some copyright issues for some campaigns, but in most cases the material is original enough that it shouldn't be a problem. Some may need less (Wulf's endlessly entertaining story hour was based on pretty much out-of-the-box D&D and the adventure sequence, so there would be far less need for appendix details that there are for campaigns that take place in entirely new worlds)

I'm not sure I'm a fan of the serialization idea works for me, though.  It would allow many SH authors to get something in print right away, and it would take any sort of competition out of the enterprise, but it will be a less-cohesive whole.  I'd rather see a story hour that has a real narrative shape to it -- a campaign from beginning to end -- with support materials.

BTW, what method will you use to select the story hours to be published?  I have no personal interest -- it's been more than a year since I updated my own POS story hour, but beyound an interest in being published, what other critieria will make a story hour a good candidate for publication in whatever the final format may be.

-rg


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## el-remmen (Mar 12, 2004)

For my own story hour(s):

_Out of the Frying Pan - Book I: Gathering Wood_
Wordcount: 93,890

_Out of the Frying Pan - Book II: Catching the Spark_
Wordcount: 234,659


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## thatdarncat (Mar 12, 2004)

For a mass market paperback book, I'd be willing to pay standard costs. 

For something more... substantial? With illustrations, maps, mechanics and perhaps a little "commentary" I'd be willing to pay more


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## Kugar (Mar 12, 2004)

As a reader of story hours here is my take:

1) Single author story hours - as much as I like PC, if I have already read the story hour I can't see paying more than the giong rate for a trade paperback or some similar format. (That being said, if it actually goes on sale the odds of me having a moment of weakness over the first week are pretty high) 

2) Anthologies - I love short form. I like compelations, and the editior adds lots of value by picking the story hours and maybe even splitting story hours over volumes. I would pay more than the going rate for this. And you could do a series of books with a set number of pages per story hour. Like DoD Part 1 as 100 pages, then a whole buch of others at 50 pages each. The next book in the series could pick up where the last left off. 

3) Special editions - As long as the cost does not get too out of hand and the production quality was high, I could see spending more money. At that point it would be a cool coffetable book and needs to display well.

Just the opinions floating through my consumer side processor.
I really like the idea and wish you guys well.

Kugar


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## Suldulin (Mar 12, 2004)

for a chance to have Sepulchrave's story hour published. . .


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## el-remmen (Mar 12, 2004)

Suldulin said:
			
		

> for a chance to have Sepulchrave's story hour published. . .




Speaking of which, not to hijack - but does someone have a compiled version of this zipped they can send me?

I'd really appreciate it - as the last version i had got purged before i had a chance to print it out - but I have been reading it online and loving it.

/end hijack


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## Wulf Ratbane (Mar 12, 2004)

Radiating Gnome said:
			
		

> I think I'd really encourage the authors to think about including more than nominal game content. A detailed appendix, with campaign world notes, new monsters, NPCs, PCs, House Rules, etc.




That still depends entirely on what kind of response I get overall, because that will dictate my printing and distribution methods. There are ups and downs to game content-- I wouldn't include game content if I wasn't planning to market this to hobby stores, for example. I think that's still a big open question. The number of folks here who say yay or nay on game content, realistically, has little bearing on that decision.

It's pretty much either, "This is a game supplement for gamers, so it should include game content and be marketed to hobby stores," or, "This is a work of fiction, for sale to the book trade, and game content is not appropriate."



> BTW, what method will you use to select the story hours to be published?




That's an excellent question. It depends on several things. Motivation is a primary driver. The author needs to be willing to, at the very least, give his own work at least one pass for editing to save time and effort on my end. After that (now that the author has shown a committment to it) quality comes into play. And I'd say quality is about tied with general popularity (convenient, since the most popular stories tend to be higher quality, natch).

The final format (whether one book or several) would also come into play.

Though ultimately, if the format is "several books" and I get the kinks worked out of the POD process, then I think any author willing to pony up the costs to prep his digital file (~$100 bucks for a 300 page work) can make his own decisions as to whether he'd like to be in print or not. 

I would hope that, even given this last scenario, we all stick together with a common publisher imprint (whether or not it is Bad Axe) and a common "line look" in terms of cover, spine design, etc.


Wulf


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## evildmguy (Mar 12, 2004)

A few coppers worth.

I would be interested in this but I think I would be picky, perhaps too picky.  

I would prefer an annotated version of the Story Hours in a narrative format.  For me, that means the stories need to have a beginning, middle and end.  I would like to see notations on the game player, perhaps house rules and maybe the occassional statting of the characters.  

I don't want to see serializations.  (I am already sick of Jordan!     No flames!  Please!)  I would rather see a full Story Hour in one volume or a definite story from a Story Hour done, even if across two or three books.  This goes with my beginning, middle and end requirement above.  

Finally, again with the above, I would rather have a novel, rather than a conversion of the Story Hour.  In other words, I would rather have something that perhaps does foreshadowing with the bad guys and other things that the GM might not be willing to do here, if their players read it.  I don't want this to be something that I could read here, for free, with the hassle taken out of it.  I would want these stories fully developed.  

However, I am probably asking too much.  I did say I would be willing to pay more than normal but the reason is because I would want something more than is already here.  I am asking for this because without some changes, there is no incentive for me to get any that I have read here.  While it might increase my interest in some Story Hours that I haven't read, and for that reason the anthology idea would be good, and to read more Story Hours, something like this won't hold my interest if I already know or have read, verbatim, the story.  

I am probably in the minority but I thought I would add my own thoughts to this.  

edg


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## ledded (Mar 12, 2004)

I would certainly be willing to pay more than standard costs to see some of my faves in print, if for no better reason that to pay back these wondrous few for the delight and inspiration that they have given me by letting them have the priviledge of being able to say "Why yes, I *am* published"   

For my own personal benefit, I wouldnt mind seeing my story hour in print one day, though wouldnt feel that it is particularly deserving or intelligent to do so;  however, the SH I play a character in (Medallions by OldDrewId) I feel *BEGS* for publication and a freakin' screenplay.  Sure, I may be biased, but there are a few really, REALLY good stories out here by talented story *craftsmen*.


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## LightPhoenix (Mar 12, 2004)

Here's what I'd be concerned about.

For one thing, I'm not so sure what the lure of buying a print copy would be, especially since we can get it for free on the boards with comments and such.  I think extras would have to be included for it to be worthwhile, especially to those of us who under normal circumstances might be willing to pay for a print copy but can't because of stuff like college, unemployment, or tight funds.  Coupled with the additional work of making sure there's no product identity stuff in the story hours and tightening up the writing (especially in the beginnings) that's a good deal of editting for not much of a benefit.  At least, in my own humble, uninformed, and monetarily poor opinion.

My other concern is pretty selfish.  That is, most of the stories here aren't updated all too often.  It's not uncommon to see gaps of a month between posts.  With the added work of having to go through the editting process, which I imagine would be done by the original authors, that's even more stuff piled on top of their busy schedules already.  This means less SH posts here in the forums, or at least less often than they are already.

Another quick thought I had is that we'd lose a lot of the player commentary.  This commentary brings a lot of depth to the table, in my opinion.  Wizardru's SH (or Zad's ) is great by it's lonesome, but the input of all the players just makes it even better.  Or maybe I just like Argent's reaction every time Bolo get's eaten.  And I'd definitely pay to see that in print.


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## simmo (Mar 12, 2004)

I like the idea of reading a Story Hour in paperback format and would be willing to pay above standard prices for one. However, it would have to be a proper novel and not simply a transcript of the adventures (which is pretty much what my story hour is for example). 

The other reason why this might not work is because of the copyrighted material used in story hour write ups. (Note: this may vary depending on the story hour involved).


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## el-remmen (Mar 12, 2004)

I think the incentive to buy it is

1) Supporting your favorite author

2) Easy asccess and portability

3) Saving on ink/paper of printing it out yourself

4) Some people do not like reading things off a computer screen.


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## DanMcS (Mar 12, 2004)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> That still depends entirely on what kind of response I get overall, because that will dictate my printing and distribution methods. There are ups and downs to game content-- I wouldn't include game content if I wasn't planning to market this to hobby stores, for example. I think that's still a big open question. The number of folks here who say yay or nay on game content, realistically, has little bearing on that decision.
> 
> It's pretty much either, "This is a game supplement for gamers, so it should include game content and be marketed to hobby stores," or, "This is a work of fiction, for sale to the book trade, and game content is not appropriate."




There is middle ground, you know, "This is fiction, for sale to gamers."  One of the dragonlance books, maybe Dragons of Summer Flame, had game statistics in an appendix for a whole class, the evil knights whose name escapes me at the moment.  Knights of Takhisis or something.

But really, that's Dragonlance, which is a realm unto itself as gaming fiction goes, so it probably doesn't bear on this too much.


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## Jon Potter (Mar 12, 2004)

Word puts my main story's word count at 535,159.

I've got a couple of side stories (solo adventures, atonements, etc.) and the two that I can immediately lay my hands on clock in at 236,481 and 31,547 respectively.

Mind you, this isn't all from these boards. I had been compiling this for a few years before I posted to EN World.


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## Lela (Mar 12, 2004)

DanMcS said:
			
		

> There is middle ground, you know, "This is fiction, for sale to gamers."  One of the dragonlance books, maybe Dragons of Summer Flame, had game statistics in an appendix for a whole class, the evil knights whose name escapes me at the moment.  Knights of Takhisis or something.
> 
> But really, that's Dragonlance, which is a realm unto itself as gaming fiction goes, so it probably doesn't bear on this too much.



 There have also been plenty of books with mini adventures (including the characters and rules) in the back.  Dropping in stats, for D&D readers, wouldn't be all that bad of an idea.


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## Sagiro (Mar 12, 2004)

As a SH author, I find the notion of seeing my opus in print to be pretty intriguing, but I have a number of caveats and opinions.  (And please, do recognize that these are just opinions; I’m not trying to present them as facts!)

For one, if I were ever to have my own SH published, I’d want to finish it first.  The campaign, that is.  Whether or not a SH is published as a novel or a gaming product, I think it should have narrative closure.  So count me out personally for at least another couple of years.  

For another, I don’t think most Story Hours (mine included), even the well-written ones (mine not necessarily included ))) would make very good novels.  That’s because the _pacing_ of a good novel is much different than the pacing of a good D&D campaign.  Almost any story hour would need some serious revision, in terms of going back and including foreshadowing, character development, breaks in the action, etc.  I know mine would.  Just recently I rewrote my original two-paragraph opening as an 18-page character introduction.  I’d want to do something like that for the whole dang thing.

Side-adventures not connected to the main plot would want to be culled out of a novelization, but included if you were writing a gaming supplement.

In many cases, descriptions of combats would be problematic in the “novel vs. game supplement” debate.  When I’m reading as a gamer, I want a sense of the action-by-action flow, so I can imagine how the combat played out at the table, get ideas about gaming tactics, etc.  But If I’m reading as a novel-reader, that’s not at all how I want to read about combat.   Good fight-scenes in novels tend to follow one character over several “rounds,” as it were, to give the reader a better sense of their perspective and emotions during a battle.  Skipping to a new character every six seconds would make a true novel too choppy to read well.

Similarly, the way in which PCs come and go in many campaigns would seem weird in a novel format.  I imagine it’s not unusual to have (for instance) a beloved character whose player moves away or drops out of the game 2/3 of the way through the story.  If this were a novel, there would have be a damn good reason, from a story perspective, why that character dropped out or faded away.  If in-game the DM just quietly retired the character, or had them suddenly go off to pursue some extra-campaign agenda, that wouldn’t work in a novel.

Finally, there’s the problem of the dangling plot thread.  Recently Piratecat let us know that he had found no less than 30 still-dangling plots, even after the recent tumultuous conclusion of the current arc.  It would not be terribly surprising if in a few years time his campaign will end without us players having followed up on every last one of these.  In a game, that’s not a big deal.  In a novel, if you’re going to set something up, you’d better follow it up, too.  That means that when a campaign ends, it would behoove an author-to-be to go back and remove references to plots that never went anywhere.

Despite my misgivings, I think there are Story Hours out there that would make great novels, if the authors had the time to address these points.  I’m thinking of Piratecat’s and Sepulchrave’s in particular, though there are certainly others.

I can imagine rewriting my Story Hour to be a pure novel someday (assuming I come across a magical djinn who grants me a life of 50 hour days so I can go back and rewrite most of it).  I can also imagine writing it as a gaming supplement, with constant footnotes and annotations explaining the goings-on in the DM’s head concurrent with the action.  I don’t have a good enough sense of the publishing business to know which would be more saleable, or have more demand.  But I’d enjoy writing either.

-Sagiro


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## Derfel (Mar 12, 2004)

I'm going to add my voice to those who have mentioned incorporating, at the very least, a good amount of game info in this type of product. For me these Storyhours have been a goldmine of ideas, NPC's and challenges that I could borrow and toss at my players. As pure fiction they may be entertaining, but their real value, at least to me, is how they essentially work within the framework of the game. 

In addition to the stories themselves, I'd love to see the game statistics included for PC's (or at least samples at various levels), villains and/or monsters. Understandably this would be a bit tricky when dealing with things that fall within product identity for some companies. Details about the setting(s) would be a plus, if at all possible. 

I think the most interesting and, at least in my case, useful aspect would be DM comments; how certain issues and problems were tackled, or where inspiration for many ideas came from. Behind the scenes information is probably the biggest draw for me as a reader. Of course I'm a sucker for DVD commentaries for the same reason. 

It's an interesting idea and one I'd definitely be willing to spend money on, especially if it offers more than ye standard piece of fiction on the bookstands.


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## Radiating Gnome (Mar 12, 2004)

I'd like to echo Sagiro's point about a story hour working as a straight narrative -- I don't think, in the long run, they'll work.  A D&D campaign is not the same thing as a novel -- the structure is very diffent, character motivations will be very different, and there is far too much focus on things like combat that really take a back seat in most decent fantasy novels because, frankly, it's hard to make physical action interesting for long stretches on the page.

As SH readers we're interested because we know the rules of the game, how it works, and we appreciate a level of complexity that a non-gamer reader won't, and can't hope to get.  

Some of the writing in the SHs that are out there is very good, compelling writing.  But they don't have enough narrative shape and variety to work as a stand-alone novel, and pretending that they do is asking to be disappointed with the final product.  

So make the gamer audience your target -- and think of this as a new sort of campaign aid.  You have a smaller target audience, sure, but it's an audience that you'll be far more sucessful at reaching.  

-rg


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## evildmguy (Mar 12, 2004)

Sagiro said:
			
		

> As a SH author, I find the notion of seeing my opus in print to be pretty intriguing, but I have a number of caveats and opinions.  (And please, do recognize that these are just opinions; I’m not trying to present them as facts!)
> 
> For one, if I were ever to have my own SH published, I’d want to finish it first.  The campaign, that is.  Whether or not a SH is published as a novel or a gaming product, I think it should have narrative closure.  So count me out personally for at least another couple of years.
> 
> ...




Hey!  I thought I said that in my own response when I said I wanted a beginning, middle and end with no serialization and no Jordan!   

Kidding.  I was thinking of the these things but had too many other things going on at the moment I was replying to say it as well as you did here, Sagiro.  So, thanks!  

Have a good one!  

edg


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## el-remmen (Mar 12, 2004)

I think all of Sagiro's questions/comments/concerns (save the one about the campaign not being completed) can be laid to rest by marketing them as the novelization (narrativization?) of D&D campaigns. 

All the dangling plots, coming and goings of "main" characters, disappearances of NPCs and minor characters, etc . . . could all be excused that way.

And as for combat, I already try to write mine the way he described, that is describing several rounds from one PC's point of view and then either skipping "back" in time to explain what anotehr character was doing, or ifd not immediately important simply showing the result. . .


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## Kid Charlemagne (Mar 12, 2004)

Let me emphasize strongly that I do not want the Story Hours rewritten to "novel" style.  I can understand the appeal of doing so, but these stories are, and should be marketed as, the narratives of actual campaigns.  Going back and erasing significant parts, or reworking things to make them more like a regular novel, would make them of little interest to me.

There are enough fantasy novels out there.  These are not fantasy novels.  They are something else: a record of a collaborative universe.  They are almost documentary in nature.  I don't believe significant alterations should be made; some will be necessary in the editing process, but I think they should be published more or less as they are.


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## Old Drew Id (Mar 12, 2004)

As an author, I would love to get anything into print, just for the sake of having my writing in print (not just in PDF form.) As a reader, I would be interested in something like an Anthology, sort of a "Tales from the Gaming Table" kind of thing. I think my SH, and some of the others as well, would have to be either expanded to go full-length, or else trimmed down to short-story length. Eliminate the excess plot lines, etc. and just take the "best of" from each SH and turn it into a short story. Then include a few maps or stats from each SH for game content. 

In fact, the more I think about it, the more I like that concept. You could break out the anthology into genres. Start with the fantasy genre, for instance, and have a section intro that outlines the genre, plus the different rules sets, books, gaming aids, etc. that were used in each of these stories. Then give the stories themselves, then follow them with an appendix of stats. Then do the same thing for section 2 "d20 modern", then section 3, "pulp adventures", etc. 

As a reader, I would be interested in that, to see not only what the stories were, but also what the different rules sets were, and what products everyone used, etc. I imagine there could be a good deal available there wherein the different publishers might help out if they got a good plug in there.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Mar 12, 2004)

Radiating Gnome said:
			
		

> I'd like to echo Sagiro's point about a story hour working as a straight narrative -- I don't think, in the long run, they'll work.  A D&D campaign is not the same thing as a novel -- the structure is very diffent, character motivations will be very different, and there is far too much focus on things like combat that really take a back seat in most decent fantasy novels because, frankly, it's hard to make physical action interesting for long stretches on the page.




Hard? I am not afraid to say I think I did a fine job with the action in my own SH. I can't speak for other authors here, though I can point to many of my own inspirations from the genre who handled physical action quite well, thank you. 

Read any Elric, lately? Conan?



> As SH readers we're interested because we know the rules of the game, how it works, and we appreciate a level of complexity that a non-gamer reader won't, and can't hope to get.




I don't know the first thing about Dark*Matter, but it has never hindered my enjoyment of jonrog's story hour. Not once during a read have I ever thought, "This is a game."



> Some of the writing in the SHs that are out there is very good, compelling writing.  But they don't have enough narrative shape and variety to work as a stand-alone novel, and pretending that they do is asking to be disappointed with the final product.




I don't believe I ever used the word "novel." On this we agree: I am not suggesting the publication of "novels." I'm talking about publishing some entertaining stories. Damn fine stories.

Folks used to be satisfied with that, once. REH wasn't writing novels. Lovecraft wasn't writing novels. I'll take REH over Jordan any day, thanks.

These Story Hours are not examples of the novel art form, nor do they strive to be, as far as I can tell; neither does that diminish them in any way.

This is a new genre and a completely different art form (the writing is not collaborative though the genesis is).

I don't think it's necessary to be a gamer to enjoy these tales.

I think "Tales from the Gaming Table" is an excellent descriptor.

Wulf


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## Wulf Ratbane (Mar 12, 2004)

Would the one author (the first, at least) who voted "no way" care to elaborate?

I don't ask to marginalize, merely to understand; if you are not comfortable posting here, please private message me.


Wulf


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## Radiating Gnome (Mar 12, 2004)

Ah . . . there's nothing that warms a Peck's heart like riling up Wulf .  

And you do a damn fine job describing the action in your SHs, no question, and you are one of my favorite SH authors because of it.  And I've read plenty of Conan, Elric, Gemmel, Cook, and many more to make excellent examples of action writing.  But even those examples don't spend as much time in detailed combat as a gaming group does -- and by extension most story hours.  And that's why I think trying to pretend that a story hour is anything other than a gripping story from the gaming table is a mistake.  

-rg


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## Wulf Ratbane (Mar 12, 2004)

Radiating Gnome said:
			
		

> And that's why I think trying to pretend that a story hour is anything other than a gripping story from the gaming table is a mistake.




Great!

So who's pretending that?

(Not to mention that I dispute the premise that most SH's focus extensively on the combat...)


Wulf


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## MTR (Mar 12, 2004)

I lurk on enough story hours I should speak up here.

While I regularly follow six story hours and have read parts of a number of others, I believe only two of the authors write well enough I would buy a novel of theirs.  The rest of them are good "war stories" of the kind gamers always swap when they get together.  They're entertaining without professional quality writing.  You're really talking about a new type of work, between a dungeon and a novel.  

I don't know any law but I could see some potential snags.  Wizards has a copywrite on a bunch of material the authors would have to use.  I don't know if a player in the campaign could complain that the author was using his character/dialog/ideas without permission. 

I didn't vote in the poll above because my opinion is a little more complicated.  The more material I could use in my personal campaign, the more I'd be willing to pay.  There is a definate disincentive because this board has more story hour stuff than I can possibly read.


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## Radiating Gnome (Mar 12, 2004)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> Great!
> 
> So who's pretending that?
> 
> ...



 I guess no one is.  

Actually, I thought that people were moving in that direction, and I was just heading that idea off at the pass.  Because, as a woefully, ruefully, sadly failed SH author with a following of 0, my opinions and ideas are the MOST important on this thread.  

-rg


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## Sagiro (Mar 12, 2004)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> Great!
> 
> So who's pretending that?
> 
> ...




Based on what I've read, I would stand by a claim that a vast majority of Story Hours have a significantly higher percentage of battle-description per page, or at least a higher number of battles per page, than a vast majority of published fantasy fiction.

I accept your premise, though, that we're not talking about novels, but about a new genre of gaming-table stories.   And because of that, most of the comments from my previous post become sort of moot, as long as readers have the right set of expectations going in.

There's still the matter of editorial quality, of course.  On the one hand, if we're talking an honest-to-goodness paperback that someone's going to sit down and spend several hours reading, it's going to be _competing_ with professionally-edited novels, at least for anyone who doesn't have unlimited time to read.  As such, these gaming-table stories should be able to hold their own against a reader's alternatives.

On the other hand (and I admit I'm just guessing here), most Story Hour writers probably don't spend _lots_ of time editing their work.  I mean, I'll read mine through a few times for typos and misspellings before I post, but it's not like I have a professional editor warning about my overuse of commas, or my grating repetition of certain words, or my dangling participles.

Wulf, you said earlier in this thread that you expect each author to give his or her own work at least one editing pass before handing it over.  Will that be enough?  Maybe for Sepulchrave and jonrog, but not for me, that's for sure.  How much editing and consulting are you prepared to do at your end?

Anyway, just so you don't think I'm only being negative here, there are some stories on this board that I'd pay $8 for right now, as posted, just to have a hard-copy that I could read more at my leisure.  And I'm still overall positive on the idea, even if just from a "cool vanity press" point of view.

-Sagiro


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## Wulf Ratbane (Mar 12, 2004)

Sagiro said:
			
		

> Based on what I've read, I would stand by a claim that a vast majority of Story Hours have a significantly higher percentage of battle-description per page, or at least a higher number of battles per page, than a vast majority of published fantasy fiction.




Ok, ok. But I think "fantasy fiction" is an awfully wide spectrum, into which many SH's can easily find a place, despite their focus on "action." I've previously staked out a portion of that spectrum. (I might also mention comic books here-- though they are a visual representation, rather than literary, they are stories that focus very heavily on action and don't suffer for it.)



> I accept your premise, though, that we're not talking about novels, but about a new genre of gaming-table stories.   And because of that, most of the comments from my previous post become sort of moot, as long as readers have the right set of expectations going in.




I think this alone is going to force certain decisions. In my own mind, at least, I've never been convinced that anything we might do should compete against novels, or fantasy fiction, or necessarily appeal to non-gamers. (Though I think some of the stories here could do so, it wouldn't be my line of attack.)



> There's still the matter of editorial quality, of course.  On the one hand, if we're talking an honest-to-goodness paperback that someone's going to sit down and spend several hours reading, it's going to be _competing_ with professionally-edited novels, at least for anyone who doesn't have unlimited time to read.  As such, these gaming-table stories should be able to hold their own against a reader's alternatives.




Well, yessssss... but there are an awful lot of alternatives, not just books. Even assuming we're targeting the right folks-- our fellow gamers-- we have an awful lot of alternatives on our Palette of Geeky Goodness. I can't worry about alternatives-- which is not to say that I would want to have anything to do with sub-par work.



> Wulf, you said earlier in this thread that you expect each author to give his or her own work at least one editing pass before handing it over.  Will that be enough?  Maybe for Sepulchrave and jonrog, but not for me, that's for sure.  How much editing and consulting are you prepared to do at your end?




The text I receive should be free of spelling mistakes and major grammatical errors. I can read a piece of text once and scour it clean of enough remaining errors that it will, even at that point, be at a higher level of quality and professionalism than many RPG publications.

And then I'd have at least one more pair of eyes look at it. 

I might suggest, if we move with an Anthology of some sort, that every author is responsible for reading and editing the work of at least one of his colleagues.

I might further suggest that _every_ author read the work of every other-- but I don't want to talk crazy or nothin'. 



> And I'm still overall positive on the idea, even if just from a "cool vanity press" point of view.




The "neato" factor is pretty high in my book, too!

Wulf


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## ledded (Mar 12, 2004)

Radiating Gnome said:
			
		

> Ah . . . there's nothing that warms a Peck's heart like riling up Wulf .
> 
> And you do a damn fine job describing the action in your SHs, no question, and you are one of my favorite SH authors because of it. And I've read plenty of Conan, Elric, Gemmel, Cook, and many more to make excellent examples of action writing. But even those examples don't spend as much time in detailed combat as a gaming group does -- and by extension most story hours. And that's why I think trying to pretend that a story hour is anything other than a gripping story from the gaming table is a mistake.
> 
> -rg



Let me say that you obviously have not read some of the better story hours on these boards, no offense  .  Seriously,  there are quite a few that do character development, nice scene setting, non-gaming interactions, and spend a lot less time describing the combats than it took to do them in game.

I'm not trying to ruffle your feathers, but while many (heck, most), particularly D&D-based ones, do tend to be combat-centric (not that there is anything wrong with that, mind you) there are quite a few that achieve good levels of conflict without each turn of the page being accompanied by the sound of dice rattling.

Really, there are stories on here that are interesting because they are about a game, but they dont necessarily read like a game monologue (again, not that there is anything wrong with that).  People have been responding with vague generalizations about story hours, when I personally see a good bit of variety in the story hours that I read on a regular basis.  Maybe I'm nuts, or maybe folks need to break out of their genre and read a little bit of everything that there is to offer here.

I also have to second the idea that OldDrewId had above... don't try to make them anything other than what they are.  Tales from the Gaming Table.  I really, really like that idea.  There is room in that for artwork, gaming stats, etc along with some really good stories, and by crossing genre's you could even reach a wider audience than with a singular focus.  I could really get behind something like that.


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## el-remmen (Mar 12, 2004)

sagiro said:
			
		

> On the other hand (and I admit I'm just guessing here), most Story Hour writers probably don't spend lots of time editing their work. I mean, I'll read mine through a few times for typos and misspellings before I post, but it's not like I have a professional editor warning about my overuse of commas, or my grating repetition of certain words, or my dangling participles.




As I mentioned in another thread, I have been slowly working on editing a master copy of my story hour (including re-doing and re-numbering all the footnotes) to give as a gift to all my players when the campaign is done - and there has been a lot of red ink on those pages 

However, as any author is bound to tell you - one never edits their own work as well as someone else could b/c our minds tend to gloss over things that make sense to our way of thinking that might not be clear to others.

More that the ~$100 of getting it printed, the real investment for me would be in time editing it again to polish it some.


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## Lazybones (Mar 12, 2004)

As an unpublished author with a nice tall stack of rejection letters from agents and publishers, naturally I think this would be a great idea. 

I do think that WotC would have to give permission for this to work.  I knew when I started writing these stories that I would never be able to sell any of them, since they are all set in a copyrighted setting.  I don't think there's a single story hour that I've read here that could survive a lawsuit for copyright infringement even with the OGL, and if any of these actually made any money, I think that their lawyers would come sniffing around in a minute to put a stop to our fun. My tales are particularly vulnerable because one is set in the Realms, and another in the "Adventure Path" series of modules in _Dungeon_ magazine.

I have worked as an editor and would be happy to donate some time in that function to the project. 

My completed _Travels_ comes in at 8 books totalling 460,000 words (so 2 volumes at least, I'd say).  My "Shackled City" SH is currently at about 140,000 words, and I am nearly finished with Book 3 (i.e. the third module in the series).


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## (contact) (Mar 12, 2004)

I could probably be pressed into service to supply some illustrations for any SH project, provided the working-window was long enough, and my jobbie-job wasn't pressing in on all my free time.


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## Capellan (Mar 12, 2004)

I have a question / concern about the proposal: what are the legal implications of selling a story hour if it contains modules, NPCs or sites created by other authors?  For example, Lazybones' Shackled City stories - I'd expect they couldn't be published without the consent of whomever owns the rights to the modules?


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## Radiating Gnome (Mar 12, 2004)

ledded said:
			
		

> Let me say that you obviously have not read some of the better story hours on these boards, no offense  .  Seriously,  there are quite a few that do character development, nice scene setting, non-gaming interactions, and spend a lot less time describing the combats than it took to do them in game.
> 
> I'm not trying to ruffle your feathers, but while many (heck, most), particularly D&D-based ones, do tend to be combat-centric (not that there is anything wrong with that, mind you) there are quite a few that achieve good levels of conflict without each turn of the page being accompanied by the sound of dice rattling.




Heck, its friday afternoon, I'm not taking offense at anyone right now.  

I haven't read all of the story hours that are out there -- I won't debate "better" with you, as that's just a matter of taste and opinion, although I'll admit that the ones I read most religiously are the high level D&D ones, because I'm usually looking for inspriation (read:stuff to steal) for my own high-level home game.  But even those that I'm fond of, like Sept's, explore some fantastic non-combat stuff, and even the ones that I like that do a lot of combat also throw in a lot of good character interaction and banter and other sorts of fun.  

So, I'm not going to argue with you.  What I will say, though, is that it would take a very special story hour, based on a very special game played by a very special gaming group, to be a story hour that was as tight and cohesive as a novel should be (note that I'm not going to say novel is, because there's an amazing amount of crap out there).  

The best Story Hours are art, in that they are labors of love and creativity, they take a great deal of committment, and fidelity, and passion.  But the root of this whole debate (at least for me) was really whether there should be an sizeable appendix of game material in the story hour publication, or if it should just be presented as a narrative on its' own, and I'd STILL argue that what I would like to see most, and be most likely to pay higher than average scratch for, is a book that combined the story of the campaign with the game material used to run it, so that if I chose to I could meld it into my own game.

-rg


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## ledded (Mar 12, 2004)

Radiating Gnome said:
			
		

> Heck, its friday afternoon, I'm not taking offense at anyone right now.
> 
> I haven't read all of the story hours that are out there -- I won't debate "better" with you, as that's just a matter of taste and opinion, although I'll admit that the ones I read most religiously are the high level D&D ones, because I'm usually looking for inspriation (read:stuff to steal) for my own high-level home game. But even those that I'm fond of, like Sept's, explore some fantastic non-combat stuff, and even the ones that I like that do a lot of combat also throw in a lot of good character interaction and banter and other sorts of fun.
> 
> ...



Agreed, which is why I like the "Tales from the Game Table" idea... you could put a little bit of everything in there, and if marketed well, even sell it to non-gamers for the stories.

I guess I'm just getting a bit punchy in this thread because some folks have been making broad assumptions based on the fact that they *seem* to me (probably incorrectly, mind you) to be reading mostly D&D Story Hours, and not giving non-D&D stuff a chance to really rock their socks off.  While some of the better story hours are in fact D&D based (P-Kitty, Wulf, Sepulchrave), there are several authors that have incredible SH's that are not (Jonrog1 - Pulp Spycraft and Drunk Southern Girls, OldDrewId - Medallions, Heapthaumatergist to name a few), and if you havent read some of 'em, you may find your impression of story hour's changed a little bit by doing so.

Sure, there's plenty of action, but it's not all 'combat' ticking off round-by-round.  Anyway, I agree with a lot you said, and with the general feel that to attempt a novelization of the average story hour, regardless of game system it used, would be a mistake for 95% of the SH's out there (there are a couple I'd not only like to see as a book but a movie as well  ).

But an anthology, complete with artwork, maps, handouts from the game, and game info (especially homebrew stuff) would just be super-de-duper off-the-hook geeky coolness, IMHO, and also quite doable.

I'd volunteer some of my time to be involved in the process if it was ever needed, just because I think the whole idea is worth pursuing.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Mar 12, 2004)

Capellan said:
			
		

> I have a question / concern about the proposal: what are the legal implications of selling a story hour if it contains modules, NPCs or sites created by other authors?  For example, Lazybones' Shackled City stories - I'd expect they couldn't be published without the consent of whomever owns the rights to the modules?




It is a problem. Speaking for myself, I'd scrub my SH clean of Intellectual Property. Quick and easy, in my case, because the setting is not front and center in mine.

Others would have considerably more diffiulty, and yes, you'd have to find some kind of solution. I don't know what WOTC's stand would be, but I would imagine (since they have a novel division) your odds would not be good.


Wulf


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## Lazybones (Mar 13, 2004)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> It is a problem. Speaking for myself, I'd scrub my SH clean of Intellectual Property. Quick and easy, in my case, because the setting is not front and center in mine.



As I recall, Wulf's excellent story ran through the entire Adventure Path of modules.  It would be hard to remove all references to those modules without dramatically changing the stories, and once the module is clearly identifiable in the narrative, then they have you for copyright violation.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Mar 13, 2004)

Lazybones said:
			
		

> As I recall, Wulf's excellent story ran through the entire Adventure Path of modules.  It would be hard to remove all references to those modules without dramatically changing the stories, and once the module is clearly identifiable in the narrative, then they have you for copyright violation.




Well, I respectfully disagree-- both that it would be difficult, or that there would be any concern.

Clearly, you are correct that there are plots and thematic elements endemic to the Adventure Path which would be difficult to avoid or alter, but I believe it's possible to recount the experience without using any specific trademarks or intellectual property. I don't know that one can copyright a plot or thematic element.

If I were to mention "The Forge of Fury" I would end up in the same boat as someone who sets their game in the Forgotten Realms (though you must admit the Realms are a pretty big piece of IP and WOTC's novel business).

The question is whether I am able to recount an experience my character had in a dwarven forge wherein there dwelt a dragon, and so forth.

Obviously, I wouldn't do anything without consulting a lawyer about fair use, etc. I accept the possibility that I am just flat out wrong!

EDIT: I would also like to add, without having actually _read_ any of the modules themselves-- I am merely recounting an experience-- it would be difficult for me to infringe on anything that was actually copyrighted.

EDIT2: Of course, it's pretty clearly derivative... 

Wulf


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## dpdx (Mar 13, 2004)

I hate to say it, but this thing is very much circular to me, and not in a good way.

Like a lot of people here, I read quite a few books, and when I'm finished with them, they get loaned to friends, or taken back to Powell's for credit against new books. The only exception to that is resources: My 3.5 PHB; my Spanish/English dictionary, etc.

A Story Hour in print has the double disadvantage of being a printed version of something I've already read electronically. So I wouldn't buy it, and even if I did, it'd be ready to return the minute I got it. And I don't know too many friends of mine who'd be in a position to get something out of this book: they'd have to game, be within driving distance, and not already (like me) be following the SH on ENWorld.

So although it's a novel idea (pardon the pun), you'd get more mileage out of (for example) gazetteers and setting handbooks for the many great homebrew campaigns that form the basis for our favorite Story Hours. Destan's already working on this for his Ostia Prim campaign world, and I'll probably be all over that when he gets it done.


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## Enkhidu (Mar 13, 2004)

You know, as D'Shai and I were writing Small Beginnings (note to self, finish the SH up using the already existing outline), we always said that all we were doing was practicing so that we could one day actually write fiction in exactly this genre and publish it. Strange.

Anyhoo - Small Beginnings isn't quite finished yet, and is already at 71K words - lightweight by y'alls standards.


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## ConnorSB (Mar 13, 2004)

I would love to be published, even though most of my story hours are, well, quite rediculously short (mostly due to lack of writing time).


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## Shaele (Mar 13, 2004)

*RE: Publishing*

I'm a reader. I'd easily pay market value to see some of my favorites published. In many cases, I'd pay /above/ market value:
- this is obviously a smaller market, and production costs will probably be higher
- an extra few dollars is a small price to pay to thank the authors for the time and effort they've packed into their stories. I already feel like I owe PirateCat, Wulf, Sep and many others a beer or two   

--jeff


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## pogre (Mar 13, 2004)

I'm a reader. My personal story hours were more an exercise in modelling and painting than writing.

I think Wulf's adventures could work, but I think part of the charm of the story is everyone's familiarity with the modules you were going through.

I think it is safe to say that everyone who has professional quality material on the story hour is published professionally or working on such in a different capacity. PC has Of Sound Mind. JonRog goes without saying. You have BadAxe. Destan is working on a gaming supplement for a company based on his world in his Storyhour. Sepulchrave has dodged all offers thus far AFAIK. You should sign up Black Dirge for a gaming supplement if someone has not done so already - his NPCs are the best!

As most of those folks have already written professionally - Would these folks be willing to do a significant amount of work to shape up their SHs for publication? If they are going to just proof them, I guess I would be less interested.

I voted that I would pay above average for the stories, but please no fancy covers for me. I also expect to find something extra in the books.

I think you're right about copyright issues generally. I would have to do some research, but it seems to be less of a concern than folks are suggesting here. I think a d20 license would help your product more than hurt it.


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## Maldur (Mar 14, 2004)

I would love these. Esp if, as Awink said earlier, these stories have added on commentaries, gamenotes, maps etc. That would make it perfect idea mines for games. And a nice read as well


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## Silver Moon (Mar 14, 2004)

I think it is an interesting idea.   As stated before, most "Story Hours" are not of a professional writing standard that would merit this treatment, however three authors that come to mind who are would be Jonrog1, Piratecat and Sepulchrave.    Even those would probably still require a professional editor and to also change references to proprietary things.   If I were you I'd also  approach WotC about obtaining some permissions from them for any D&D related stories just so you don't run into any legal trouble from them down the road.

As for my own story hours, I have no illusions as to being a professional fiction writer.  I've kept a "Party Log" for my players since 1982, and my story hour is nothing more than an online version of that.   For publications under my name I'll continue to stick to peer-reviewed journal articles about health care administration.


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## Micah (Mar 14, 2004)

I wasn't a gamer until I read some of the story hours here. 
I've spent two years lurking on the story hour forum.

And I can't decide what I'd vote on. . .


For a nice anthology

with a leather cover that doesn't have fantasy artwork aimed at adolescent teens plastered across it.
that highlights one or two authors by taking a major story arc in their campaign - let's say- PC's underdark, the first half of the adventures of Abernathy's company, or Lady Despina's Virtue 
add in game stats, cartography, artwork, dm's notes and "story hour exclusives" maybe madlibs, or some of the really neat commentary that happens when the players in some of the games post (obviously we don't want to see Horacio's bump a day all printed out - no offense there to the number 1 story hour addict - but enough to get a community feel.) PC could even use exerpts from the thread which must not be named. I really like the storyhour feel - and am partial to it.
showcase another dozen of the top story hours with shorter sequences from their writings - a particularly fun adventure/module, etc. Jonrog comes to mind here - he actually doesn't have an intensly high page count, but I am hooked on his Darkmatter story.
Make sure you don't publish a book like this more than one every 5 years. . .
And I'd probably pay anywhere from $30 - $130
and I could care less about novel-style editing - if you market it as a storyhour collection - I'd buy it for the geekish neato quality.


For a paperback marketed to hobby stores

with enough campaign notes and supplements to help me out in a game
especially if it is an author/game/setting that I particularly like.  
I'd pay average bookstore price or maybe a little more. If it turns into a serial, I'd be really picky and less likely to buy. But then I'm not the one in the family with a bookshelf full of modules and rulebooks. So there is still hope there.


And finally this is not meant to be a slam to anyone, but there are a lot of story hours that I think are perfect in electronic format - I read them and enjoy them here. I respect the authors and the Dm's - there are a lot of neat things represented in a story hour- as well as a ton of work. 

But to be totally honest the page and word counts some of you have posted are truly scarey and I'd rather not have my lunch break hobby sitting neatly bound, collecting dust, on my already too small bookshelf. Novels do compete for both my time and bookshelf.

In summary - I'd pay for _The Best of ENworld Storyhours _if you can capture it.


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## Elocin (Mar 15, 2004)

I would be more than willing to pay for the Story Hours on here in print.  Especially since about the only one I am able to read now is Piratecats (Especially since Wulf has stopped writing (that I know of) and has joined PC's game).  I just do not have the time anymore to sit in front of the computer hours on end (that and being laid off from work due to downsizing and not being able to sit at work and read the stories anymore as my new job is an outside job, dangit).  Anyway, I would love to be able to have a hard copy in my hand and be reading some day at work or when I am waiting for my friends to show up for our weekly game night.  I would love them even more and probably be willing to pay even more if they had maps, excerpts and what not in the books as well, possibly as sidebars or what have you.

Anyway, I am all for this.


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## el-remmen (Mar 15, 2004)

Wulf, can you give us some insight into your timetable for making these decision about whether to attempt this at all or not (and what you need to make those decisions) and if so what form it might take (or whether what form it will take will determine its possibility at all). .. 

And of course, if there is anything other folks can do to make the process easier for you. . .


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## Wulf Ratbane (Mar 15, 2004)

nemmerle said:
			
		

> Wulf, can you give us some insight into your timetable for making these decision about whether to attempt this at all or not (and what you need to make those decisions) and if so what form it might take (or whether what form it will take will determine its possibility at all). ..
> 
> And of course, if there is anything other folks can do to make the process easier for you. . .




Based on the discussion so far:

The most likely format will be something that includes game notes, will be branded d20, and will be sold in hobby stores as well as bookstores.

Going this route would mean that I would probably have to undertake it as an entrepreneurial enterprise, rather than simply as a matter of vanity or for the neato factor.

No further comment on the timeline but I wouldn't describe it as "imminent" in any case. 


Wulf


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## ledded (Mar 15, 2004)

Cool.


Let us know what we can do to help.


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## Lela (Mar 15, 2004)

I'm at your disposal Wulf.  Let me know if I can help with anything.


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## jmucchiello (Mar 15, 2004)

I didn't reply because I only allow myself to read one SH (it's Sep's of course). But I would be disappointed if the books didn't also have little Q&A areas through out the story. Sep's handling of divination with the web of motes (actually running through scenarios with the players vs. Graz'zat) was just brilliant and added so much value to reading the SH.

Copyright issues with Wizards is probably going to require that you get their blessings. But that depends on the content of the various SHs.

Has anyone addressed the character copyrights owned by the players? You don't just need the SH author's permission to reprint the story. You need the player of each PC to give permission to use the "likeness" of his character. (And if some lawyer wants to say I'm crazy, fine. But it would still be better to ask them for permission to put their character in print. It's one thing to have your character's story on a website.)

Good luck, Wulf.


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## Nail (Mar 15, 2004)

I think the central "cool-factor" of our "art-form" is the give-and-take the message board provides.  I've brought lots of friends and aquiantaces to the Story Hour forums to read the stories of how "D&D was meant to be played", and to show them how different players and DMs do things.....and how great those different ways can be.

If we edited out all of the commentary (especially that of the players), we'd lose a huge chunk of the appeal.  If we removed the rules-specific text, we'd lose another large peice.  

How can we include all of that in a standard print-format book?  (The closest model I can come up with is a book of letters a la Jane Austen.)


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## Zaruthustran (Mar 15, 2004)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Wulf was telling me earlier that with an isbn number they would even be listed on Amazon. Now _that's_ vanity press material!




I'd be willing to help with that! Kevin, do you still have my email address?

-z


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## el-remmen (Mar 15, 2004)

Nail said:
			
		

> If we edited out all of the commentary (especially that of the players), we'd lose a huge chunk of the appeal.




What about those of us who have a whole lot of views and lurkers, but very few actual comments from readers and almost no comments from the players at all (the bastards!)?


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## Enkhidu (Mar 15, 2004)

Nail said:
			
		

> If we edited out all of the commentary (especially that of the players), we'd lose a huge chunk of the appeal.  If we removed the rules-specific text, we'd lose another large peice.




I'm not so sure - Pkitty had a habit of purging his every few months until we switched to a new vbulletin version and lifted/raised the message per thread cap, and I still find his SH to be entertaining even during the long beginning (unbroken by reader posts).

And I'm fairly certain that Sep's stuff would be just as compelling without the countless bumps.


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## Broccli_Head (Mar 15, 2004)

It would be very nice to see some of the authors published. I like the idea of an anthololgy best of all--Micah's idea--  , highlighting episodes, and adding game related material.  Recently, I've seen a trend to and art to short story collections. I think that the Story Hours would benefit from that as well.


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## Celtavian (Mar 16, 2004)

*re*

Very nice offer Wulf. Leaves out most Story Hours set in published settings, but there are quite a few original settings that could be put into print. 

For a very motivated author, this could be a great opportunity to gain a publishing credential and possibly some name recognition.


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## Fieari (Mar 16, 2004)

I would pay good money for Lady Despina's Virtue in paper form.  I haven't finished reading it yet simply because I like reading in bed, and I can't carry my monitor to bed with me.  Seeing maps and all kinds of other supplements would be wonderful, and if it were professionally edited... comments about delays removed, just as an example, and supplementary notes OUTSIDE the main storyline (like at the end of chapters)... yes, I'd buy that.  Pay a hefty sum for it too.


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## Old One (Mar 16, 2004)

*A bit late to the party...*

As a SH author...I would have a keen interest (due to vanity, if nothing else), but am under no illusions that my writing is anywhere near the league of Sep, Destan, Jonrog.  I just wonder how you would do this, logistically, given the giant page counts of some authors.

I do think you might find a market for this, as a broad-based selection of SHs, with a variety of campaign types, notes, maps, etc could be amazingly useful to DMs.

Keep us informed !

~ Old One


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## Wulf Ratbane (Mar 16, 2004)

Old One said:
			
		

> I just wonder how you would do this, logistically, given the giant page counts of some authors.




Print a bigger book?

But seriously, page count is largely a matter of font size-- and a "novelization" can afford a smaller font size than an RPG rulebook.

Word count is what... err... counts. 

Though of course a certain amount of editing will be required.

Wulf


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## Zaruthustran (Mar 16, 2004)

If one of the goals of this project is to let readers pay SH authors, then an easy step in that direction would be to get SH authors to sign up for Amazon Honor System. Then we readers can chip in a buck (or $5, or whatever) to the authors whenever we want.

I know I'd gladly give $5 to a number of SH authors right now as thanks for their hard work and fun entertainment. $10 (or more) to a select few (Contact, Sagiro, Sepulchrave, Wulf, Capellen, and Piratecat). 

If 9 other people on this board agree, that's an easy $50-$100 bucks (less Amazon's cut) for each author. Not a lot, but not bad either. And I bet way more than 10 people would want to send a 5 or 10 buck thank-you to these authors.

Just a thought.

-z


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## dogchild (Mar 16, 2004)

Zaruthustran said:
			
		

> If one of the goals of this project is to let readers pay SH authors, then an easy step in that direction would be to get SH authors to sign up for Amazon Honor System. Then we readers can chip in a buck (or $5, or whatever) to the authors whenever we want.




I think that's _a_ point, but not _the_ point. In fact, I think that might delay this project on the whole. 

I would like to see novelizations (or, ah... "stories," Wulf) with appendices that include game content. I think this would be the best balance between the demands of the established audience, while allowing for growth in the audience. 

I would pay more than market-value for this: because of their dual-nature, they could be read and enjoyed as stories, or as game supplements, or both. I think that's the best way to sell 'em. 

I don't like serialization. It's a pain in the ass. I hate having to "keep up" with stuff. On the other hand, a series of novels is okay, as long as each of them has an individual story-arc. 

Oh, and current novels run between 70,000 and 100,000 words. 70,000 would be shortish, and 100,000 would be a "goodish" length.  Really long stuff can clock in at up to 250,000 words. Anything longer than 150,000-200,000 and you may be looking at a series, rather than at a single novel, though it really just depends.  

Anyway--good luck with this, Wulf. I think it's a great idea, and power to you if you can make it work.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Mar 16, 2004)

Zaruthustran said:
			
		

> If one of the goals of this project is to let readers pay SH authors, then an easy step in that direction would be to get SH authors to sign up for Amazon Honor System. Then we readers can chip in a buck (or $5, or whatever) to the authors whenever we want.




It's a kind gesture-- and I can't speak for the other authors, but I don't really think that's the point.

From the authors' perspective, getting into print is a "neato" issue, and not a "for profit" issue.

The poll, at least, seems to bear that out.

If I were to publish these in my professional capacity as "Bad Axe," in the "gaming supplement at standard paperback price" format that seems to be the front runner, I'd like to pay the authors under my usual terms-- which includes the fact that the authors retain copyrights to their own work. (Our standard contract is written in such a way that you essentially grant Bad Axe a license to publish.) In such an arrangement, it would allow me to cover the costs of printing and payment to the authors, and it would allow the authors-- should they gain some notoriety, God willing-- to carry on with their intellectual property under a more "normal" arrangement at a later date.

I'm still thinking about the details, of course. 

I do have a few other important things on my mind right now (*cough Grim Tales* cough).

Wulf


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## Steverooo (Mar 17, 2004)

Okay, I didn't vote.  Here's why:

I'm an author and a reader.  I have three (finii) story hours, here, and have contributed to yet another.  Of the three that are mine, one is short-short, one long (but too short for a book, and based on someone else's post), and the only "long" one has copyright issues, as it's based on a published (Non-WotC) adventure.  The one I contributed to I wouldn't want to see in print.

So, while I can't vote that I'd _never_ want to see anything in print, none of my story hours, currently, are ever likely to see the light of day on their printed pages...

As a reader, I'm not interested in paying high prices for a story hour...  Some of the "game book" ideas sound worthwhile, but I'd want to see a copy before buying it (especially if it was priced above the norm, for small print runs).  I have read some of Bad Axe's stuff, though, and thought it worthwhile, so that's a help.  I like what Wulf's posted about their licensing contract, too, so that's a plus...  (I have one short-short story hour, A Tale of Sorrow that might work as a two-page or so filler in an anthology).

Anyway, since I don't really have a story hour to get published (and have seen print enough for the vanity press to have no pull), and since I'm uncertain how much I'd like to see a story hour in print, I didn't vote...  None of the listed options really seem to fit me...

I would consider submitting the short-short, if Wulf's interested, so I won't say "never", but it certainly is *NOT* worth $100, to me, to see it in print!  As for someone else's work, I might or might not want to buy a book of it, depending upon the format and contents...  I can't put a price on it, unseen, so can't vote on what I'd be willing to pay...

I know, I'm no help!  ;-p


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## Wulf Ratbane (Mar 17, 2004)

If you forced me to make a decision today, here's what I would do:

I'd publish Piratecat's Story Hour as a single volume.

1) It has the highest number of readers.

2) It has the fewest license/PI issues.

3) It's large, fairly complete, and for the most part, well-edited.

4) It's extremely well documented with "gaming" materials-- maps, NPCs, templates, pantheons.

As for the printing details, it would go something like this:

1) I'd print as much of whatever Kev wants to whatever stopping point he thinks works best.

2) I would print it in its entirety as a piece of fiction in the first half of the book.

a) Short notes would be printed in smaller footnotes at the bottom of each page. These could include "reader comments" if such still exist, or it could include shorter DM notes that don't warrant a more complete treatment later. The purpose of these footnotes is to make a clear distinction between a work of fiction and... "game table fiction," which is a different kind of beast.

3) The second half or portion of the book would contain game-related material.

4) If such material was extensive enough to warrant it (meaning, it could satisfy the terms of the license), I'd publish under the d20 logo.

5) I wouldn't use print on demand-- I'd invest in the print run as an entrepreneurial enterprise, fronting the money for a longer, cheaper print run. (But ultimately not that large a print run.)

6) I'd sell the book to hobby AND bookstores.

7) I would pay the author a flat freelance rate for the material up front, with additional incremental payments at certain milestones of sales. (I would avoid a straight royalty as I've done it before and it's a headache).

8) I would be willing to invest a bit more for a few illustrations.

9) The format would be trade paperback-- it will look and feel like a novel, not a game supplement.

If Piratecat's Story Hour proved successful-- and to be honest, I'd define successful as "breaking even"-- then I'd publish additional Volumes in a series. If a particular author warrants a single volume to himself, that's fine; if it takes several smaller authors to complete a volume, that's fine, too.

Further comments?

Wulf


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## Morte (Mar 17, 2004)

Colour me odd, but whilst I would be quite prepared to pay for a few of the story hours here I actually prefer to read things on a computer screen rather than in a book. Just thought I should provide the outlying data sample...


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## Lazybones (Mar 17, 2004)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> If you forced me to make a decision today, here's what I would do:
> 
> I'd publish Piratecat's Story Hour as a single volume.



I'd buy that, at standard paperback novel prices (what is it today, nine bucks? Or is "trade paperback" the bigger ones for fifteen... I can never keep the two varieties straight).


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## Felikeries (Mar 17, 2004)

personaly the idea of a smaller form print page lacks merit

paperback books with a 4x7 in is a poor way to present these stories

a 6x10,or more with this style allows more incorperation into the RPG atmoshphere

also the stats etc,should be considered as a pre-section before first chapter

however footnotes could be asorted iether by page or chapter with information about spells,damage etc that took place

as well as a midevil form of font,or at least less mundane than most should be a crucial factor,as well as covers should be formatted as non character artwork,becuase of readers making a focus for their own RPG imagination,a place might be better,or even some RPG interest items screened into it as well


'check my new Final Fantasy system'
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=80651


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## Lela (Mar 17, 2004)

That's probably a good way to go Wulf.  Essentially a small market test with the work most likely to succeed.

Were it a larger book, I'd say to go with sidebars instead of footnotes.  Like with the Collectors Dragonlance.  But, if I'm picturing the trade paper backs right, footnotes are probably best.

Edit: There'd probably need to be an Intro page or two that helps readers who aren't also players, of which we'll likely get a few, to know some of the differences between this book and other fantasy novels.  That would help reduce people who get confused and simply throw it in a closet or drop it at a used book store.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Mar 17, 2004)

Felikeries said:
			
		

> a 6x10,or more with this style allows more incorperation into the RPG atmoshphere




Well, I do have some experience in the 6x9 format. I guess books in this format will look like the Cthulhu Cycle books from Chaosium, which is also appealing for its own reasons.

That may in fact be the best way to go, since "game fiction" in that format has been trailblazed by Chaosium. It will certainly help retailers know where to stock them in their store.


Wulf


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## drnuncheon (Mar 17, 2004)

...thrilled as I would be by the idea, I figure I better explain my "I'd never publish mine" - it's simply because I use too much of other people's stuff.  The legal issues would be way too sticky since I'm using characters created by Green Ronin, Monte Cook, stuff that's not in the SRD.

Were it completely original, I'd jump at the chance.

J


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## Zaruthustran (Mar 17, 2004)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> Well, I do have some experience in the 6x9 format. I guess books in this format will look like the Cthulhu Cycle books from Chaosium, which is also appealing for its own reasons.
> 
> That may in fact be the best way to go, since "game fiction" in that format has been trailblazed by Chaosium. It will certainly help retailers know where to stock them in their store.
> 
> ...




Plus, look at the old "Darksword Adventures" book as a guidleline for what *not* to do. It was a game-and-fiction book published in typical paperback format. Hard to read, impossible to leave open on a table... ugh.

Based on your earlier description it sounds like you want to publish a mini-campaign setting of Piratecat's world--with a *really* long piece of introductory fiction.

I think that's a terrific idea.

Include the Iconics (the heroes of the story hour at various stages of development), the cosmology, history, geography--all stuff already mostly written by Piratecat. Include notes on P-cat's famous DM style, including how he goes about writing and running adventures. Maybe include a few of his Ceramic DM entries as a free web supplement.

I'd buy that.

One more note on the honor system concept: you can use this to help fund your project. If the authors don't want to accept personal donations/if the goal is not $ but the neato factor of being in print, then I'd like to pay money towards the publication of a book. Not as an investment (I don't expect or want any return) but as a gift/thank you for the hours of entertainment.

To make it work you could include in the "Acknowledgments" section the name of any person who contributed $10 or more toward publication. That way readers are involved in the project itself, instead of just consumers.

I bet it'd work, and it'd certainly help you achieve your definition of success (breaking even).

-z

PS: Again, I can help with feature placement on Amazon.

EDIT: Er, that's "Darksword", not "Darksun".


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## Rackhir (Mar 22, 2004)

At the risk of opening a can of worms, with a bit of rewriting might not Sep's stuff make for a better first attempt at publishing a novel? Aside from the very early posts, it is written in more of a novelistic style. Also I think it actually would have the fewest IP issues since so much of the campaign and the creatures are home grown and it is the most plot driven of the story hours that I've read (a limited number admittedly). From what I've seen consistantly over the past year or so is that many people keep posting that they would like to purchase a copy. Something I have only seen sporadically with other story hours, including Pkitty's.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Mar 23, 2004)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> At the risk of opening a can of worms, with a bit of rewriting might not Sep's stuff make for a better first attempt at publishing a novel?




A purely academic question, unless Sep weighs in here!

Wulf


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## Rackhir (Mar 23, 2004)

I've posted a link to this thread in "The Mésalliance" and asked Sep to weigh in. But I don't think he logs on much if he's not posting, so it may well be a week or two before he notices.


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## Piratecat (Mar 23, 2004)

I hope he does weigh in. He's a fantastic author, better than the vast majority of fantasy authors currently writing, and it'd be great to see him get published.


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## el-remmen (Mar 25, 2004)

Anyone here have copies of Perdido Street Station or the Scar?  Those big soft cover  trade paperback books?  That is the size I envisioned for this product. . .


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## jmucchiello (Mar 31, 2004)

PC,

Not sure if this should go here but having just read your story hour (it took a few days. Had been meaning to get around to giving it a look anyway after reading Sep's storyhour from start a few months ago) there is a lot of stuff that's off limits in an OGL work in there. Would you really have the time to rewrite those sections for publishing (especially since you're months behind in updates as it is)? Stuff like Sigil, Forsaker giants, Kuo Toa, Mind Flayers, adventures straight out of (or highly modified) from Dungeon, etc. all tread close to stuff WotC obviously claims as their own. Heck, just remembering to remove all references to Daern when the fortress comes up in the story is time consuming. Not to mention the time needed to turn some of the out of game stuff into meaningful sidebars -- it seems like a large undertaking for unknown payoff.

I assume the book would use the OGL so that stats for characters and major villains could be printed. But that limits the story in annoying ways. I doubt any story hour is 100% OGL compatible. Slip a monster from MMII in or a spell from BOVD and poof. 

Even Sep's story hour has non-OGL demons and devils running around in it that would be annoying to have to fix.

Good luck if you go forward with this.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Mar 31, 2004)

Let's not assume that WoTC wouldn't be willing to allow some IP to be used in a Story Hour product - they've given permission to various publishers to use IP before, and they might be willing.  There's no harm in asking before going to the trouble of trying to strip that stuff out, especially in the case of Wulf's own story hour.


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## barsoomcore (Mar 31, 2004)

As an author I'm definitely in the "neato" camp. Guess I'd have to change a few details...

Like the NAME of the campaign ("Barsoom" -- Hm, is that somebody's IP?). I'd also LOVE to include assorted game details which the story hour currently avoids. Stat blocks, the rather bizarre Barsoom magic system, all that stuff would be fun to throw in.

As a reader I would pay more than average for a book like this. I'd especially love an anthology format book -- I don't read many Story Hours because, you know, clicking on the link, it's just too much work. But to just turn a page... now there's a level of investment I'm willing to make.



Seriously, I'd prefer an anthology, with some bits serialised -- I'd subscribe to a magazine that did that. I reckon. It'd be great to have the ongoing storylines and the game mechanics and a cover, etc.

Definitely. Sign me up.

And I'm a reasonably experienced editor, Wulf, and willing to provide assistance in that regard (or any other, within the limits of my restricted skill set).


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## Wulf Ratbane (Apr 1, 2004)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> ("Barsoom" -- Hm, is that somebody's IP?).




That's Edgar Rice Burroughs, isn't it? 

In which case, it's probably public domain by now.

Regarding WOTC IP, the first line of approach will definitely be to ask permission, as that is indeed the path of least resistance. Moving beyond that, I really don't anticipate a great headache with regards to editing for content (famous last words...)


Wulf


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## barsoomcore (Apr 1, 2004)

It is. But I'm pretty sure the word "Barsoom" is now trademarked by ERB, Inc. or somebody. Changing it would be pretty simple, of course, and for the most part my campaign is violently idiosyncratic.

Word counts:

Barsoom Tales: 40,709 (about a third done, I'd say)
Wild Stewardesses: 13,082 (Half-way? A third?)


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## Joshua Randall (Apr 2, 2004)

I'm late getting back to this thread, and I don't have much to add that hasn't already been said. But what the heck -- it's a message board so I can "me too" as much as I want. 

I think this project can only succeed if it is clearly a hybrid between story and game supplement. Readers need to know what they are getting into. And the existing audience (i.e., EN World) will only pay for printed copies if they contain useful gaming material, not just the story.

A simple print-out of the story, no matter how nicely illustrated, is going to flop. Because most of us have no qualms about using our employer's laser printers to spew out 1,000 pages of Lady Despina's Virtue.

One area that I would emphasize is the "this is how D&D should be played" aspect, or the _learn from the masters_. You could then market the books to new gamers, as well as old gamers wanting to learn new tricks. Look at someone like Johnn Four's DM advice publications, and column in _Dragon_ magazine, for inspiration. People eat that stuff up. Everyone wants to be a better gamer.

Don't try to hide the fact that these stories are based on D&D campaigns. Revel in it. Embrace it. That's how to succeed.


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## diaglo (Apr 2, 2004)

oi, my story hour is just a gobbeldy goop of notes thrown together.

i'd need to do a major edit to make it publish/print quality. i don't have the time or inclination to do that. besides i didn't write it alone. nor was the campaign one i refereed.


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## el-remmen (Apr 2, 2004)

I want this as a quote on the back of my book. 



			
				monboesen said:
			
		

> Damn. You got to be the harshest dm out there. There just seem to be no respite for the poor group. It makes for a very good dark fantasy story but I don't think many players i've known would stick with this game.
> 
> So many deaths, so many enemies, so few friends and rewards. Don't the characters (and players) ever wonder why they keep going on.
> 
> I guess what I'm saying is: great story, incredible perstistant players, very nasty dm'ing.


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## ledded (Apr 2, 2004)

Joshua Randall said:
			
		

> <snip>
> One area that I would emphasize is the "this is how D&D should be played" aspect, or the _learn from the masters_. You could then market the books to new gamers, as well as old gamers wanting to learn new tricks. Look at someone like Johnn Four's DM advice publications, and column in _Dragon_ magazine, for inspiration. People eat that stuff up. Everyone wants to be a better gamer.
> 
> Don't try to hide the fact that these stories are based on D&D campaigns. Revel in it. Embrace it. That's how to succeed.



I agree with your sentiments here, though I'd like to reinforce the point that quite a few of the SH's on these boards are not D&D, but some other game (Modern, Star Wars, Traveller, etc).  Sure, they are in the minority compared to the huge numbers of D&D stuff, but there are some extremely good story hours written about some intensely good games that have nothing at all to do with D&D.  I know you, and most everyone else, realizes this, I just occasionally like to throw out a reminder (of course, our group has 3 different story hours going at once and none of them are D&D, so I'm a bit biased  ).

"Tales from the Gaming Table".  I still think that has a very nice ring to it.


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## HeapThaumaturgist (Apr 2, 2004)

As a non-D&D SH author, I must concur with Ledded.  Props for the Modern SHs out there.

Not that I'm biased either, or anything.

--fje


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## Steverooo (Apr 6, 2004)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> I am not likely to place much stock in the poll above, by the way, until there are enough votes to be statistically relevant to me.




So iz we statistically relevant to you, yet?


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## Wulf Ratbane (Apr 6, 2004)

Steverooo said:
			
		

> So iz we statistically relevant to you, yet?




Yes you iz.

Anybody want to play amateur statistical analyst and throw out possible ways to read the poll results? 


Wulf


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## Lela (Apr 6, 2004)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> Yes you iz.
> 
> Anybody want to play amateur statistical analyst and throw out possible ways to read the poll results?



Sure, why not?

[All prices are USD.]

As mentioned, a lot depends on what the poll takers viewed as Standard for paperpack (a word specific to the poll). While it was mentioned in the thread, not everyone reads the whole thing and many took the poll before they read the price. So, you may have groups viewing it as 6.99 through 8.99 and groups thinking of a different kind of paperback. Something more D&D related: 19.99 through 29.99.

I'm also willing to bet that most view above average price as being no more than 20% or 30% higher. So, assuming 30% and top price mentioned, they're looking at 11.69 and 38.98, respectively. And that may be pushing the line (or beyond) for most of those willing to pay above average.

Now, those familiar with Bad Axe probably expect amazing things from you Wulf. A lot of readers (and authors) don't really think you're going to charge the high amounts but just think you're checking your options, which may affect the poll. I'd expect far different results if I were the one to have opened it. And even more drastic changes had it been Morrus, Eric, Hong, or Horacio. Like it or not, you being you affects your results, both positively and negitively.

[Edit: Added the following.]

Ah, forgot.  I'd expect both sides to move around.  Some of those who say they would never buy it, ever, may change their mind when they see it online or, more likely, in a gaming store.  And some of those who say they would pay above average won't purchase it at all.

Normally, I'd say that the two would average out but so many more say they're willing to buy it than not.  In this case I think we're looking at a slight drop with poll results vs. actual sales.  I'm going to say 5-10% based on my gut.  My head is calling out 20%.

How'd I do?


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## ledded (Apr 6, 2004)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> At the risk of opening a can of worms, with a bit of rewriting might not Sep's stuff make for a better first attempt at publishing a novel? Aside from the very early posts, it is written in more of a novelistic style. <snip>



I agree, but for instance if this potential book is published as a set of excerpts/short stories with game info, maps, etc, a 'short story' type publication of the longer SH's like Sep's, PCats, etc may be a nice way to introduce their work and possibly lead into later novel publication.  Depends on the story, I guess, but I've seen a few books get published that started as a short story published in a magazine or compilation work.  Just a thought.


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## Steverooo (Apr 6, 2004)

*My Analysis:*

Only a few authors responded, but of them, most would like to be published.  Of those, only one would do it strictly for cash.  Four wouldn't do it, at all, probably for IP issues...

Many more readers have responded, and only a few said "no way"!  Of the interested, most seem willing to fork out "standard prices" for a "book".  Whether that means paperback prices for a paperback, or $20-25 for an 8.5x11" "gaming book" is unclear.

Additionally, a few have expressed an interest in a fancy, leather-bound, gold-leafed hardbound volume, at a higher price.  Only one or two have expressed interest, but perhaps more might be interested...

Maybe you should do a poll on price and format?

Still, it is a bit troubling (to me) that some seven percent of the readers are saying "no way you're getting my money".  Because they can read it online?  Quality (or lack thereof)?  I'd like to know why, and don't recall anyone "saying".

Again, how many replies are you looking for in order to determine statistical relevance, to you?


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## Wulf Ratbane (Apr 6, 2004)

Steverooo said:
			
		

> Only a few authors responded, but of them, most would like to be published.  Of those, only one would do it strictly for cash.  Four wouldn't do it, at all, probably for IP issues...




Well, hey, "a few" is 20% of all respondents.



> Of the interested, most seem willing to fork out "standard prices" for a "book".  Whether that means paperback prices for a paperback, or $20-25 for an 8.5x11" "gaming book" is unclear.




Well, the "higher than standard" option in the poll was to account for the higher print costs of P.O.D. Since I wouldn't go that route at this point, I am sure I can sell the book for a reasonable price. (If you don't think the price you're paying for RPG books right now is reasonable, I can't help you.)

At this point, I'm basically ready to rock. All we need is a few people to nudge Piratecat into doing his part and off we go!

Wulf


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## ledded (Apr 6, 2004)

To Piratecat:


NUDGE!


Ahem.  There ya go.


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## Surreptitious (Apr 7, 2004)

This thread convinced me to register.
I've been reading Piratecats storyhour for some time and I've enjoyed it immensely! Thank you for sharing it with us PC

The combination of a good narrative, discussion and some stats 'n mechanix now and then provides me with one of the best sources of inspiration for my FR games both as a Dm and as a player.

If a sourcebook (I see it as a sourcebook rather than a novel) containing the main narratiive of the exploits of the defenders of the dawn (or some other storyhour, I'll soon delve into others) complemented by stats, some mapsketches and a discussion of sources and modules tweaked into the campaign i would buy it for its plotlines, devious encounter locations and brilliant ideas for roleplaying in general. 
IMO the price for a sourcebook like this should be about 20$

A good start would be to compile and edit the current thread, add map sketches and stats, then sell it as pdf. I would pay 6-7 $ for a file like this. I'd actually prefer this, as shipping to Denmark often add 6-10$ to the price.

Hope you manage to realize this project


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## JoeBlank (Apr 10, 2004)

_I am a reader, and would pay more than standard price to have my favorite story in print._ 

This was my vote, but it is not entirely true. I don't have a favorite story hour, as I just can not bring myself to read a novel-length story on the computer screen. And I've never gotten around to printing one out. 

I spend enough time on this board, and the internet in general, that when it comes time to read I want to relax in my easy chair with a cup of coffee/tea or glass of scotch, and not stare at a screen and click a keyboard. So the only story hours I have read completely are those of games in which I participated. I usually read those a session at a time.

Still, I would pay a premium to see if some of the highly-touted stories would grab me in print form. I've had more people tell me to read Sepulchrave or PC than I have Martin or Hobb.

The anthology format would probably suit me best. If I were an author, I would be tempted by the leather-bound volume, but as a new reader that might be a little more than I would want to pay. Still, I would probably splurge on it to support the EN community.

Cool idea, Wulf. Best of luck in getting this done.


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## Graf (May 22, 2004)

sorry to post without reading all 7 pages.
If it hasn't been mentioned I would comment that what sets a story hour apart from a normal story is the advanced level of information the reader has about the "rules system" (i.e. the world).

I voted more than standard price; I mean with game material.
The stories are great, but having an apendix in the back with stats and rules and so forth (and probably a larger than paperback sized book) would make a killer product.

IMHO, natch.


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## tariff (May 23, 2004)

I haven't read all of the discussions on this subject, so if i am repeating something that has already been stated, my appologies.  I have to agree with Sagiro, i think SH's as a whole wouldn't make a good stand alone novel for all the reasons already stated.  However, what attracted me to them is reading how other groups faired in the D20 modules, especially the classics. "temple of elemental evil", "tomb of horrors", "city of the spider queen" etc, compared to my gaming group.  I could see a market for that, maybe even package a book with a couple of the best SH's with the modules (obviously these wouldn't be initial release because noone would have played them yet, but how about on re-prints), also couldn't Dragon/Dungeon maybe pick up on these ideas and maybe run a few SH's.   Just my thoughts


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