# [ooc] gng - nameless [4/4]



## doghead (Jul 19, 2004)

*Nameless* is set in a fairly conventional medieval-fantasy homebrew dnd world. It uses Ken Hoods *Grim 'n Gritty: Revised and Simplified* rules along with my own rather rough and ready *classless character generation system*. My classless character generation rules can be found in the next post. Warning: If class balance is a big issue for you, then I suspect that this game is not.

[bq]*Update:*We now have four.

Nameless is sort of an 'ordinary people caught in the middle of things'. It started with some goblin attacks, and the characters (farmers, blacksmiths, herders, a noble, a warrior - ie NPC classes) being recruited into the mititia. From the town they lived in, they were sent out to travel to the village of Killingtom to reinforce the garrison there. Along the way they were to pass on news of the goblin activity. They ran into a little of goblin activity of their own as well.

Just outside of Killingtom, they met a goblin shaman who told them that there was trouble brewing in the goblin lands as one of their kind was seeking to unite the tribes and lead them out against the people of the plains. Working for the warmonger was a human, who was looking for some device of power. With that device in his possession, the warmonger believed he could convince the other tribes that they could win, and rally the trtibes that hadn't joined to his cause. The Shaman fears that it would be so, and so promised to met the party beyond Killingtom and tell them where they needed to look to prevent the seeker from finding the device.

Thats where they are now. Meeting the shaman in some ruins a day out of Killingtom.

I'm not fussed about filling the 4 iconic slots in the party. Life is rarely that organised. But the party doesn't have a spell caster of any sort at the mo', so that would be an area that would give you heaps of opportunity to shine. Just a thought ... 

The easiest way to access the game would be through my pbp thread in my sig. All the links are there, as well as a little info on the characters.[/bq]

*Current Characters*

*Nate Ay'Tennar* Human Male 2 - Raging Blacksmith.
DrZombie

*Fredar* Human Male 2 - Ner-do-well.
Maerdwyn

*Garival* Human Male 2 - Landcarl.
Seonaid

*Fenix* Human Male 2 - Alchemist/Snake Oil salesman.
khavren

*Cromwell* Half Orc Male 2 - Soldier of Kettenek.
npc

*Hadarook* Halfling Male 2 - Scout/Outrider.
npc


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## doghead (Jul 19, 2004)

*Character Generation*

CHARACTER GENERATION

*Stats*

4d6 and drop the lowest. Use any dice roller, but post a link to the results. If it all comes in under 30 points, bump it up to that level.

*Races*

I love monster races but ... I think i will go with the standard SRDv3.5 Races.

*Classes*

There are no classes. Characters are built using a Construction Point (CP) system.

[bq]First level: 12 CP
Each additional level 8 CP.

-- Automatic Advancement --

The following advancement is free at each new level.

+0.5 BAB (fractional)
4 Skill Points
+1 to any one save

-- Selective Advancement --

The following advancements have to be purchased with CP.

1 CP +0.25 BAB upgrade. (maximum 2 CP)
1 CP +2 Skill Points (maximum 6 SP)
5 CP select an 'entry class' feat
4 CP select an 'entry core' feat
3 CP select any 'progression' feat.
1 CP for a +1 to any additional save (maximum 1 CP per save, except 2 CP on any single save at *1st* level and no more than +1 increase to any single save at all later levels.)

* 'entry' feats have no other feat as a prereq.
* 'class' feats come from the class description and are only available to those classes to which it is asscribed - ie Rage for barbarians.
* 'core' feats are those listed in the SRD under Feats - ie TWF.
* 'progression' feats (class and core) are those which have another feat as a prereq - ie Moblity (requires Dodge) - or forms part of a sequence - ie Rage 2/day (requires Rage 1/day).

-- Weapon Proficiencies --

As Light AP is the entry feat for the other AP's, so Simple WP is the entry feat for the other WP's.

-- Hit Dice and Hit Points --

There is no mention of Hit Dice and HP here because we will be using Ken Hood's _Grim 'n Gritty Combat: Revised and Simplified_ System.[/bq]

*Skills*

Any skills that are relevent to the PC's background can be taken on a 1:1 basis. 

*Equipment*

Take what you think is appropriate for your class/profession/background. I'll let you know if there are any problems.

*Advancement*

Advancement will happen on an ad hoc basis, the timing and options being determined by the IC situation. It will require some form of IC logical consistancy. For example, gaining the wildshape ability would probably require that you spend time with a druid. But there may be other ways. If you can think of an interesting explanation then its more than likely it can happen.

Generally, role playing your way around an encounter will earn you as many XP as killing it.

***​
The default answer to any requests for outside material is 'No'.

I am looking for 3-4 posts a week.

the head of the dog.


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## doghead (Jul 19, 2004)

*The Gods*

The following has been lifted from Fajitas' _Welcome to the Halmae_ SH. I've edited the text to remove references to his game.

Sidebar: the Gods
_courtesy of Fajitas_

There is an old parable about the three blind men and the elephant.

Three blind men are asked to describe an elephant. The first feels around and finds the trunk. "Aha," he says. "An elephant is like a snake!" The second blind man feels around and finds the legs. "No, no," he says. "An elephant is like a tree." The third finds an ear. "You’re both wrong," he declares. "An elephant is like a manta ray."

So it is with the Gods of the Halmae. They are strange and mysterious, and defy simple explanation.

Here is what is (almost) universally agreed upon. In the beginning, there were four fundamental forces, distinct in kind but equal in power. They joined together to make and maintain the World. Mortals call them Gods. What they call themselves is unknown.

Each of the Gods has multiple interpretations, but where one is found, the other three are present also. They are the four elements. They are the four seasons. They are the cycle of life. They are the four axes of alignment.

*KETTENEK (keh-TEN-eck)*

Kettenek is seen as a stalwart figure, implacable and unmoving, Guardian of the Underworld and Lord of Winter. He brings the freezing cold, and like the cold he hardens and strengthens things. Foundations are laid with Kettenek. His words endure, and his law is rigid. He is God of the Dead, though not of death, and holds the barrier between the living and the unliving.

Kettenek’s domains are Law, Earth, Strength, Protection, and Death. Winter is his time of strength.

*ALIRRIA (uh-LIR-ee-uh)*

Alirria is the tender mother figure, caring and nurturing, lover of all life and the Lady of Spring. Her tears of joy bring the rains, which restore all things to health. Spring is the time of plantings and beginnings. Journeys commence in Spring, and children are conceived. Her world is a world of love.

Alirria’s domains are Good, Water, Healing, Plant, Animal, and Travel. Spring is her time of strength.

*EHKT (ect)*

Ehkt is a boisterous warrior, never resting, never shirking, like a fire, always growing in any and all directions he can. He is the Champion of Summer. Ehkt seeks all challenges, physical or mental, and demands that they be conquered. His days are days of war and learning. Summer is a time to take on adversity and to be all that you are capable of, for good or for ill.

Ehkt’s domains are Chaos, Fire, Sun, War, and Knowledge. Summer is his time of strength.

*SEDELLUS (SEH-deh-lus)*

Sedellus is a creeping, hiding figure, crouched and lurking, the Mistress of Autumn, the Wind of Change, the Whisper of Death. Things wither at her touch. When her chill breath blows, leaves fall, animals flee, cities topple. Some folk are ruined by her cruel whimsy. Some are blessed. Some are merely ignored. Which it will be, she does not tell. Autumn is the time of death, a time of upheaval, a time of change for weal or woe. And the Mistress cares not which.

Sedellus’s domains are Evil, Air, Luck, Trickery, and Destruction. The Autumn is her time of strength.

Most members the general population worship all four in equal degrees. However, there are many sects devoted to specific aspects of each God. For example, The Lady’s Handmaidens worship Alirria as the goddess of love, while Nature’s Tenders focus on her as the goddess of nature. Some join these sects because their vocations demand it. Some join because their personalities draw them towards one god or one aspect. But even those who have dedicated their lives to one specific part of the divine order, acknowledge the presence and power of the other three.

There is very seldom in-fighting between religious sects. Like the blind men and the elephant, each interpretation is correct, if not wholly complete.

Between them, the gods govern every aspect of the world. But there is one exception: arcane magic.


Sidebar: Religious Orders of the Gods
_Courtasy of Fajitas_

The many different interpretations of the gods have led to the rise of a wide number of religious orders, each worshipping their own god in their own way. There are very nearly as many orders as there are different beliefs. Some of the major ones are described below.

Religious orders are not restricted to clerics, or even to divine casters. Anyone can belong to any religious order. Initiation rituals vary from group to group; it takes little more than a declaration of intent to become a Questor, whereas it takes many years of training and study to become a Justicar.

(NOTE: This is in no way an exhaustive list of religious groups. It is merely the list that [Fajitas] created for the PC packet at the beginning of the campaign. They were designed as seeds for character generation, tidbits to help spark the imagination. Details were deliberately left vague, allowing PCs interested in these orders to take part in their development.

Each entry include the most common classes, alignments, or clerical domains associated with each order, as well as any game-related trivia.)

*Kettenite Orders*
Kettenek’s Pillars
The Pillars live to serve. It is their mission to support all worthy and noble causes. They provide the foundation on which worthwhile undertakings can rest. They are usually Fighters and Paladins, but anyone who feels they can support righteousness is welcome in their membership. (Lawful Good; Law, Strength, Protection)

Justicars
Justicars worship the Law. They hold rigidly and mercilessly to its tenets. Everything is black or white for them. Legal is permissible, illegal is not, end of story. Judges and paladins are often found among Justicars.

(NOTE: The Justicars ... have deviated somewhat from the way [Fajitas] originally saw them, and that’s mostly [his] fault. Since they occupy a prominent position in most justice systems, they have turned out to be a somewhat more politically savvy than they are described as above. Or, at least, the higher ranking ones ... are. Lower ranking ones … they tend to be a tad more rigid in their thinking.)

Guardians of the Barrier
The Guardians revere Kettenek as the Lord of the Dead. They seek to ensure that those who have passed into the earth stay there. They seek to contain the undead, and more extreme members constantly protest resurrections. Many members of this sect have little to do with the living. They are often morticians. ... All Guardians take the name Cyrus when they are inducted into the Order. (Lawful Neutral; Earth, Protection, Strength)

Crossers of the Barrier
The Crossers were originally an offshoot sect of the Guardians. They probed the secrets of the undead, learning how to create and control them. They seek to emulate the Lord of the Dead, by ruling over them. Needless to say, Crossers are not very popular in civilized areas.

Since the Crossers originated from Guardians that had gone bad, many of them also carry the name Cyrus. This couldn’t possibly ever lead to confusion. Or hilarity. (Lawful Evil; Earth, Law, Death)

*Alirrian Orders*
Nature’s Tenders
The Tenders worship Alirria as goddess of nature. They encourage harmony with nature. Many wander the wilds, offering the goddess’s aid to her creations. Others live in city-states, helping the people there to live peaceably with nature. Tenders are busiest during planting seasons, when every farmer around seeks their blessings. Druids and Rangers often belong to this sect.

Nature’s Protectors
A more fanatical branch of the Tenders. Medieval eco-terrorists, the Protectors will aggressively protect nature against the encroachments of humanity. (Chaotic Neutral; Water, Plant, Animal)

Givers of Life
The Givers see Alirria as a healer. They dedicate themselves to providing for health needs. They are healers, physicians, midwives, etc. They live to help and aid the sick and injured.  ... (Lawful Good; Good, Healing)

Water Walkers
Walkers are consumed by wanderlust. They have a burning desire to see everything that exists in nature. They are always on the move. The longer they stay in one place, the more they miss elsewhere. Walkers often serve as messengers in their travels. (Neutral Good; Water, Travel)

The Lady’s Handmaidens
The Handmaidens worship Alirria as the goddess of love, and they provide, ahem, services in that regard. Their temples are effectively high-class brothels, but there is nothing dirty or illegal about them. Their priests, both male and female, seek to share love, sexual comfort, and respect with others. ... (Neutral Good; Healing, Good, Water)

*Ehktian Orders*
Students of the Sun Blade
The Sun Blades see Ehkt as the god of War. Ehkt craves honor and glory, and showers praise on those who find the most. Most warriors, mercenaries, or soldiers belong to this sect. ... (Chaotic Neutral; War, Sun, Fire)

Keepers of Light and Flame
Keepers believe that Ehkt encourages growth. To them, self-improvement is the ultimate form of worship. They seek physical (Keepers of Flame) or intellectual (Keepers of Light) perfection, depending on their personal focus; the holiest of Keepers seek both. Monks, Wizards, scholars, and librarians are frequently Keepers

The Keepers of Light are one of the more pro-arcane orders around. The Keepers of Flame have less interest in the arcane question. (Chaotic Good; Sun, Fire, Knowledge)

Questors
The Questors worship Ehkt as god of challenges. Like a fire constantly in need of fuel, Questors constantly seeks new obstacles to overcome. There is no quest, no dare, no stunt, no new or potentially exciting and dangerous experience that a devout Questor will turn down. ... (Chaotic Neutral; Fire, Chaos)

*Sedellan Orders*
Harbingers of the Future
The Harbingers worship Sedellus as goddess of change. All things must end that new ones can begin. Change is inevitable, and often frightening. The Harbingers do their best to shepherd people through changes, feeling no need to force it upon them. They are the most respected sect of Sedellus. ... (True Neutral; Air, Luck)

Fortune Riders
The Riders see Sedellus as goddess of chance, never knowing which way her fickle winds will blow, but always working an angle to get it blowing in their favor. Riders are often con artists or tricksters. The Order supports itself through games of chance. They are not generally well thought of, but who really wants to offend the goddess of luck? Rogues are often Fortune Riders. (Chaotic Neutral; Air, Luck, Trickery)

Children of the Wind
The Children are dedicated to Sedellus’s evil nature, to death and destruction. They detest civilization and all its trapping, constantly seeking to bring about its downfall. They have little formal organization, as they are generally killed on sight. However, they continue to strike, generally from small cells, leaving ruin in their wake. It is *highly* recommended that PCs not play Children of the Wind. (Chaotic Evil, Evil, Destruction)

***​
A note regarding alignment. I don't play alignment in a formalised way. I rarely notice which alignment a character is (with a few exceptions) and don't insist on a one being chosen. For game purposes, consider the alignment associated with the sects to reflect the philosophical undepinnings of the sect and its 'ideal'.


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## doghead (Jul 19, 2004)

RESERVED FOR MORE SETTING MATERIAL​


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## Ferrix (Jul 19, 2004)

Looks interesting but alread too much on my plate.


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## doghead (Jul 20, 2004)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> Looks interesting but alread too much on my plate.




Hey Ferrix. Thanks.

Yeah, taking too much on can leave you feeling flat and jaded. Definately to be avoided.

the head of the dog.


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## Maerdwyn (Jul 22, 2004)

Just checking in (and subscribing to this thread - I keep having to find it through the other ooc thread now that my search privliges have expired.).  I'll add a reformatted copy of Fredar to the RG soon.


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## doghead (Jul 22, 2004)

To steamline things, I'm going to close the old 







*OOC:*


 thread and transfer everything to this one. (Assuming the boards will load anything.)

Below is a template for the [rg] thread character sheets, as well as a .txt attachment of the same thing. There is a -- build notes -- section at the bottom. Please use this as it will allow me to check everything more quickly. 

When we've got three confirmed level 2 characters, we can roll. 

Feel free to post the characters here for checking before posting them to the [rg] thread.

::::​
*Name*
Race Gender Level
Concept: xxx.


*Height:* x'xx"
*Weight:* xx lbs 
*Eyes:* xxx
*Hair:* xxx
*Age:* xx

*Initiative:* +x [+xDex, +x Feat]
*Speed:* xx ft.
*Defense:* +x [+x BDB, +x Size, +x Shield]
*Soak:* +x [+x Con, +x Size, +x Armour, +x Natural Armour]
*BAB:* +x
* melee +x weapon (xdx+x, xX)
* ranged +x weapon (xdx+x, xX, xx ft.)
*Full Attack:* xxx
*Space/Reach:* x ft./x ft.
*Special Attacks:* xxx
*Special Qualities:* xxx
*Saves:* Fortitude x/+x, Reflex x/+x, Will x/+x.
*Abilities:* Str xx, Dex xx, Con xx, Int xx, Wis xx, Cha xx
*Skills:* xxx x/+x [+x Ability, +x Feat, +x Racial]
*Feats:* xxx
*Languages:* Common, xxx.
*Equipment:*
* Worn/Carried:xxx (x lb.), xxx (x lb.).
* In Backpack: xxx (x lb.), xxx (x lb.).
* In Pouch: xxx (x lb.), xxx (x lb.).
* On Mount: xxx (x lb.), xxx (x lb.).

*Appearance:* 

*Personality:* 

*Backstory:*

-- Build Notes --

Level 1 [12 CP build]
bab: 0.5 [auto]
base saves: xxx +1 [auto], 
skill points: 4 [auto] = x*4 = xx
feats: light ap [auto], simple wp [auto], entry: xxx [human].

Level 2 [8 CP build]
bab: 0.5 [auto]
bases saves: xxx +1 [auto]
skills points: 4 [auto] = xx
feats:


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## DrZombie (Jul 22, 2004)

So I'm updating Nate to second lvl, right? Basically, I just want to get started asap. Due to real life time probs, I've cut down on my EN-time, stopped my two games I've been mastering, and this is one of my few remaining characters. Not to put any pressure on you to get started, offcourse  .


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## doghead (Jul 22, 2004)

Right, Level 2. 5 CP will get you Rage 1/day and leave you 3 CP to play with. Ready when you are.

I'm sorry to hear that your celtic dreams game has come to a close. It was a great setting and it looked like a great game. How is "Game of Trust" going?

the head of the dog.


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## Maerdwyn (Jul 23, 2004)

Fredar is up in the RG with one change, if it's okay: I took +1 Will Save instead of +.25 Bab at first level

Second level:
bab: 0.5 [auto]
bases saves: Will +1 [auto], Ref +1
skills points: 4 [auto], 1 [Human] = +2 Tumble, +2 Intimidate, +1 Diplomacy
feats: AP/Shield [3cp - progression after AP/Light?], Improved Initiative [4cp]

This was the reasoning:  Fredar would have realized soon after joining up that combats as a member of the Guard were a little more serious than his youthful brawls, and because of this, he would have spent as much time with a shield as he could.  He would also have seen the value in striking first, then bugging out if the enemy still stood.


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## DrZombie (Jul 23, 2004)

doghead said:
			
		

> I'm sorry to hear that your celtic dreams game has come to a close. It was a great setting and it looked like a great game. How is "Game of Trust" going?



Yeah, the celtic game was awesome, the players were absolutely amazing, but it will live on in my tabletop game, the setting was just too cool to throw away.

The game of trust is still alive and kicking, although guilt puppy is having some problems connecting to enworld.

I'll try to get Nate upgraded tonight.

Cheers.


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## doghead (Jul 23, 2004)

Maerdwyn, second Level build is fine (please excuse my fiddle with the build notes). I hadn't thought about AP (shield), but it makes sense as a progression from AP (light).

I'll have a look at the [rg] thread now.


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## doghead (Jul 23, 2004)

Maerdwyn

Defense: As written by Ken, your BDB includes your Dex bonus. Personally, I think that that it is easier to record it as BAB + Dex, or in your case, BaseRef + Dex. The result is fine though. Defense: +8

Attacks: Crits converted and all. Nice.

Skills: You seem to have spent only 32 of your 33 skillpoints. Perform is for the pan pipes I presume. Armour check penalties inc. Nice.

Equipment: Do you realise that 60 sling bullets weight 30 lb.

Nice work all round.


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## Maerdwyn (Jul 23, 2004)

doghead said:
			
		

> Maerdwyn
> 
> Defense:
> Skills: You seem to have spent only 32 of your 33 skillpoints. Perform is for the pan pipes I presume. Armour check penalties inc. Nice.
> ...



30lb? ouch. will change that - hadn't gone through and done weights yet 

Edit: fixed. 20 bullets, lost the rope and some food to get into the "light" category.  Added one rank to tumble.

Perform gives 1 form per rank - I was thinking: pipes, dance, singing, and oratory/storytelling.


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## doghead (Jul 23, 2004)

Ouch indeed. Its kinda like carrying a 5 two litre bottles of water. 

My str 10 rogue taught me all about the dangers of weight. He had to be very carefull about what he carried. Now I always give it a once over.

So you want Perform (pipes) 1/+4 [+3 cha], Perform (dance) 1/+4 [+3 cha], Perform (sing) 1/+4 [+3 cha], and Perform (oratory) 1/+4 [+3 cha]. Interesting. No problem. It kinda reflects his 'picked it up here and there' background.


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## Maerdwyn (Jul 23, 2004)

doghead said:
			
		

> Ouch indeed. Its kinda like carrying a 5 two litre bottles of water.
> 
> My str 10 rogue taught me all about the dangers of weight. He had to be very carefull about what he carried. Now I always give it a once over.
> 
> So you want Perform (pipes) 1/+4 [+3 cha], Perform (dance) 1/+4 [+3 cha], Perform (sing) 1/+4 [+3 cha], and Perform (oratory) 1/+4 [+3 cha]. Interesting. No problem. It kinda reflects his 'picked it up here and there' background.



Actually, in the PHB, the skill description reads "You are skilled in several types of artistic expression and know how to put on a show. Possible Peform types include.... You are capable of one form of performance per rank," rather than the way craft or profession handle it.  Craft:  "You are trained in a craft....Craft is actually a number of separate skills."   Profession: "Like craft, Profession is actually a number of separate skills....You could have several profession skills, each with its own ranks, each purchased as seperate skills."

I was under the impression that meant Perform, distinct from Craft and Profession, was a single skill.  Ranks in perform would therefore cover all of those forms somewone with ranks in perform knew. Will go with whatever you rule, but will probably knock down the number of types he practices if it's as you describe. Let me know


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## doghead (Jul 23, 2004)

Just had a look at the SRD. For what its worth, both say the same thing: 



			
				SRD3.5 said:
			
		

> PERFORM (CHA)
> 
> Like Craft, Knowledge, and Profession, Perform is actually a number of separate skills.
> 
> You could have several Perform skills, each with its own ranks, each purchased as a separate skill.




At Level 3, a character could have 6 ranks in six different areas for 6 skill points. At level 5 8 ranks in 8 areas. It seems a bit counter-intuiative, normally mastery comes at the expense of breadth.

I think that I will stick with the SRD description above.

Like with Nate's Craft (blacksmith, armoursmith, silversmith type stuff), allowing Skill Focus to be taken as a +2 bonus across multiple types of perform (instead of the +3 to a single Skill) seems reasonable. Some synergies also make sense - like Act and Comedy, or (Instrument type) and Sing.


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## DrZombie (Jul 23, 2004)

*Nate L2 classless build* 
*Nathan Ay'Tennar*
Human Male1
Concept: Blacksmith.


*Height:* 6'3"
*Weight:* 210 lbs 
*Eyes:* Black
*Hair:* Black
*Age:* 17

*Initiative:* +1 [+1 Dex]
*Speed:* 30 ft.
*Defense:* +3 [+2 BDB, +1 dex]
*Soak:* +7 [+2 Con, +3 Armour, +2 shield]
*Base Attack Bonus:* +2
* melee +5 Mace, hvy (1d8+3, x2)
* ranged +2 Sling (1d4+3, xX, xx ft.)
*Full Attack:* --
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* --
*Special Qualities:* Human Traits.
*Saves:* Fortitude 1/+3, Reflex 0/+1, Will 3/+5.
*Abilities:* Str 17, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 10
*Skills:* Craft (blacksmith) 5/+9 [+2 Int, +2 Feat], Craft (weapons & armor) 5/+9 [+2 Int, +2 Feat], Craft (silversmith) 5/+9 [+2 Int, +2 Feat], Diplomacy 5/+5, Handle Animal 5/+5, Knowledge (engineering) 5/+7 [+2 Int], Open Lock 5/+6 [+1 Dex], Search 5/+5, Spot 5/+5 [+2 Wis], Sense Motive 5/+7 [+2 Wis] Swim 1/+4 [+3 Str]
*Feats:* Beast Bond, Skill Focus (Craft).Shield prof, Rage 1/d *Languages:* Common, Dwarven, Gnomisch.
*Equipment:*
* Worn/Carried: Heavy Mace, Knife, sling stones(20), sling, Magic chainmail shirt, Backpack, Pouch, Coin, Travellers outfit, Heavy cloak (on inside of cloak, wrapped in oil paper : gun+ 12 charges.), Steel shield.
* In Backpack: Swag (bedroll), small cocking pot, two fishooks and some fine rope, handaxe, flint&steel, oil and sand for weapon/armor maintenance, whetstone, thick rope, canvas, two waterskins (full), two waterskins (empty), Camping gear (the usual).
* In Pouch: spare flint&steel, money, oddly shaped stone, dice
* On Mount: --

*Appearance:* 

He is a tall broad-shouldered feller, with unkempt black curly hair, and sports a shaggy beard with sideburns.

*Personality:* 
He's a generally good-natured guy, always friendly. He tends to be over-protective of his friends, and thinks that he needs to make sure evryone is safe all the time. He tries to keep his temper at all times, but when in combat, seeing his friends getting hurt, he finds that he has a deeper, darker side to himself. He feels the siren-call of the battle-lust claiming him. So far he has been able to resist it, but he fears he won't be able to resist much longer.

*Backstory:*

Nathan grew up as a farmers son, fourth son in a large family. He was a sturdy, strong lad and was apprenticed at the age of ten to Master Hurdan, the village smith. The time at the forge made him only stronger. He has finished his apprentenceship, and is now a wandering journeyman,learning his skills at the dwarven holdn and is now going from village to village with his cart and fixing the things thad need fixing, using the small village ovens, carrying his tools with him. He doesn't feel comfortable enough yet to craft his masterwork yet, for he feels he still has a lot to learn.
He stays at his masters forge, helping out on the days he isn't on the road. He enjoys a good beer in the evening, and is often found listening to the wild tales of his friend. He dreams of being the squire of a good knight, fighting to protect the weak and innocent.
He is a goodnatured fellow, often called "my big bear" by Alana, the serving maid, of whom he (and the rest of the village boys) is secretely enamored, a fact he vehemently denies with a beet-red face. He is secretely crafting a silver rose, as lifelike as he can make it. (he's taking 20 for the rose, but is only about halfway)
Considered slow and maybe a bit dim-witted, he is actually fairly intelligent. He just likes to think things through before saying anything, lest people think him stupid. He moves with care because of his great size and strength, afraid to knock things (or people) over.

-- Build Notes --

Level 1 [12 CP build]
bab: 0.5 + 0.5 [2]
base saves: will +1, will +1 [1]
skill points: 4 + 1 [human] + 2 [int] + 4 [2] = 11x4 = 44
feats: light ap [auto], simple wp [auto], entry: Beast Bond [human], entry: skill focus (craft) [4], entry: Shield prof [3].

Level 2 [8 pt build]

bab 0.5 + 0.5 [2]
Fort +1, Will +1 [1]
Skill points : 4 + 1 [human] + 2 [int] = 7
feats : Rage 1/d [3]

[2 pt left]


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## DrZombie (Jul 23, 2004)

Four small questions : in my first lvl build you've paid 2 pts for a +0.5 BaB increase, shouldn't it be only 1, or am I missing something?

EDIT  : I was missing something, sorry.

What's the ability for spot? Yes, I'm a lazy basterd, and I don't have my books with me at the moment.

How does a buckler work into all of this (that is, if you allow for nate to have a buckler with his large hammer thinghy.)

Do I get synergie bonusses from one smithing craft to another? Allright, maybe it's a bit munchkin, but hey, if I spend 15 skill points in flavor skills that have little use in-game (okay, so I might be able to repair my own armor and weaponry, that is, if I can find a smithy I can use, somewhere in the middle of nowhere), I might as well be good at it...


Thinking about the lebvelless system, and how to prevent abuse : what about spells? I mean, you can see the first lvl as a class feat, and then the next levels as progress feats or whatsname, but (and yes, there is a point to my rambling) why would you ever take the bard/ranger/palladin progression when you might as well have the sorc/cleric progression for the same money? Just my two cents, as I'm thinking, depending on how in-game play goes, of making nate into a raging palladin or cleric or wossname.


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## Maerdwyn (Jul 23, 2004)

doghead said:
			
		

> Just had a look at the SRD. For what its worth, both say the same thing:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sounds good  For now, I'll go with all four ranks in pan pipe then, and just use the Cha bonus with the other types - Bardic music and it's progression will be a little useless if the ranks are diluted. I may broaden if I decide not to go that route. 

Looking at the SRD on Wizards, I see you're right, BTW. I had bookmarked the one on www.http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd/srdskillsii.rtf, which, despite saying it's the 3.5 SRD, is, well, different.  (I gotta buy me those 3.5e books sometime )


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## doghead (Jul 24, 2004)

Maerdwyn said:
			
		

> Sounds good  For now, I'll go with all four ranks in pan pipe then, and just use the Cha bonus with the other types - Bardic music and it's progression will be a little useless if the ranks are diluted. I may broaden if I decide not to go that route.




Maerdwyn, as I read it, you chose a catagory rather than a single type of instrument, method or technique. So if you want to play the pipes, you would take Perform (wind instruments). This gives you a bit more breadth and also avoids the nececssisty of having to deciding where the line lies between instruments, techniques and methods.



			
				Maerdwyn said:
			
		

> Looking at the SRD on Wizards, I see you're right, BTW. I had bookmarked the one on www.http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd/srdskillsii.rtf, which, despite saying it's the 3.5 SRD, is, well, different.  (I gotta buy me those 3.5e books sometime )




I use these two online 3.5 SRD's rather than the .rtf files. You can also download them (although I have had difficulty with this: incomplete downloads/missing files) They both seem to be fairly accurate and are updated to reflect errata as far as I can tell.

* theraven & stephenh

* Sovelior & Sage


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## doghead (Jul 24, 2004)

*I wanted it to be here.*

post # 2000​


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## Seonaid (Jul 25, 2004)

Oh, wow. A chance to play in a world made by doghead, partially taken from Fajitas, and populated (partially) by Maerdwyn? Are there still those 2 slots open? I'd love to join, if you'll have me.


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## doghead (Jul 25, 2004)

Hey Seonaid

I'd love to have you. The character creation details are on the first page. If you use the build notes at the bottom of the character template, it really makes it quicker and easier to confirm everything. Let me know what lines you are thinking along, and we can sort out how to slot you in.

I want to get the ic thread started asap. I've got three characters completed or near completion so, with a little luck, that will be some time in the next few days.

the head of the dog.


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## doghead (Jul 25, 2004)

DrZombie said:
			
		

> What's the ability for spot? *Wis*
> 
> How does a buckler work into all of this (that is, if you allow for nate to have a buckler with his large hammer thinghy.)




You would need Shield AP. From the 3.5 SRD: _*Buckler:* This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round._

BTW - I know we have talked about the hammer thingy - where did we get to on it. Do you remember?



			
				DrZombie said:
			
		

> Do I get synergie bonusses from one smithing craft to another? Allright, maybe it's a bit munchkin, but hey, if I spend 15 skill points in flavor skills that have little use in-game (okay, so I might be able to repair my own armor and weaponry, that is, if I can find a smithy I can use, somewhere in the middle of nowhere), I might as well be good at it...




I allowed the Skill Focus feat to apply to all three of the Craft skills because they are tightly related. At least, so long as you are working in metal I suppose. I think some form of skill sysnergy may be possible, but I'll hold judgement on waht exactly till it comes into play - perhaps it would be better to think of them as circumstance bonuses. We'll see. As I said to Maerdwyn, I'm all for a little creative use of 'soft' skills.



			
				DrZombie said:
			
		

> Thinking about the lebvelless system, and how to prevent abuse : what about spells? I mean, you can see the first lvl as a class feat, and then the next levels as progress feats or whatsname, but (and yes, there is a point to my rambling) why would you ever take the bard/ranger/palladin progression when you might as well have the sorc/cleric progression for the same money? Just my two cents, as I'm thinking, depending on how in-game play goes, of making nate into a raging palladin or cleric or wossname.




A raging palladin or cleric *or* wossname? Or a cleric *of* wossname.  

Crunch wise it probably makes more sense to take the cleric or sorceror spellcasting level X ability than the palladin one. But then, you can build a palladin by adding smite and turn to a fighter, without ever having to take any sissy spells. You're right though. Munchikin field days. I thought I would just ignore the problem until it became a problem.

If anyone has any elegant solutions ...

CHARACTER NOTES



			
				DrZombie said:
			
		

> Level 1 [12 CP build]
> bab: 0.5 + 0.5 [2]
> base saves: will +1, will +1 [1]
> skill points: 4 + 1 [human] + 2 [int] + 2 [1] = 9x4 = 36
> ...




DrZ. Exotic WP is a progression from simple WP, so it only costs [3CP]. Otherwise it looks fine.

Header: Nate is level 2. You don't need to include the Build points, but if you want to - 12/8 Build is better. 12 for level 1, 8 for each subsequent level. 

Defense: +4 [+2 BAB, + 2 dex]

Skills: Search 5/+7 [+2 Int], Spot 5/+7 [+2 Wis]

Equipment: Could you let me know where you keep the half finished silver rose. The Large Hammer is something you are looking to craft rather than something you have now?

doghead


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## doghead (Jul 25, 2004)

Just a quick though. Maerdywn included the armour check penalties for the appropriate skills. Nice. If you could add those it would be appreciated.

Also, remember that the Crit stats are different in gng. It took me a moment to work out what the numbers represented on Maerdwyn's character sheet.


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## Seonaid (Jul 25, 2004)

Thanks, doghead. I unfortunately was tired enough this morning that I didn't think to bring my books to work, so I can't get a character up until later. I'll look at the stuff you posted, and come up with a concept though.


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## Seonaid (Jul 25, 2004)

Is there a post somewhere about your concepts, or do we just make up concepts out of whole cloth?
Edit: It looks like you're using the NPCs from the DMG?

DrZombie's character reminds me a lot of Perrin from Wheel of Time, so I was thinking something like Lan. It would be basically a ranger build, I think.
Edit2: Or, something like Joscelin from Jacqueline Carey's Kushiel series. Joscelin is not really a ranger (and much less so than Lan), but the idea behind the character is similar (maybe) to what I want.


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## Seonaid (Jul 25, 2004)

*Character Notes*

Garival (gair' ih vahl)
Human Male 2
Concept: Landcarl

Height: 6'2"
Weight: 190 lbs 
Eyes: Blue
Hair: Dark blonde
Age: 17

Initiative: +3 [+3 Dex, +0 Feat]
Speed: 30 ft.
Defense: +5 [+2 BDB, +3 Dex, +0 Size, +0 Shield]
Soak: +4 [+2 Con, +0 Size, +2 Armour, +0 Natural Armour]
BAB: +2
* melee +1 dagger (1d4+1, 8+/x2) (primary hand)
* melee +1 dagger (1d4+1, 8+/x2) (off hand)
* ranged +5 sling (1d4+3, 10+/x2, 50 ft.)
Full Attack: ---
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: ---
Special Qualities: ---
Saves: Fortitude 1/+3, Reflex 1/+4, Will 0/+1.
Abilities: Str 12 (+1), Dex 16 (+3), Con 14 (+2), Int 10 (+0), Wis 12 (+1), Cha 12 (+1)
Skills: Hide 2/+5 [+3 Dex], Listen 2/+3 [+1 Wis], Move Silently 3/+6 [+3 Dex], Search 2/+2 [+0 Int], Spot 3/+6 [+1 Wis], Survival 2/+3 [+1 Wis]
Feats: light ap [auto], simple wp [auto], entry: Track [human], Shield Proficiency [3], Two-Weapon Fighting [4], Endurance [4], Alertness [4]
Language: Common
Equipment:
* Worn/Carried: Explorer's outfit (0 lb.), leather armor (15 lb.).
* In Backpack: Bedroll (5 lb.), winter blanket (3 lb.), 2 candles (0 lb.), 50 ft. hempen rope (10 lb.), 2 days' trail rations (2 lb.), waterskin (4 lb.), whetstone (1 lb.).
* In Pouch: Flint & steel (0 lb.), 20 sling bullets (10 lb.).
* On Mount: ---

Appearance: Garival is a tall, muscular man. He has clear blue eyes. His hair is dark blonde and hangs a bit below his shoulders. He keeps it tightly bound with a plain leather cord. His hands are callused with weaponswork, and his skin is tanned from being outside most of his life.

Personality: Garival believes the best defense lies in showing no emotion. He is stoic, taciturn, and serious. However, he is also young and has been known to be reckless, though those instances are few and far between. He has a strong sense of loyalty, and will do anything for those who have earned it. If his trust is ever betrayed, it would probably shake him to his core.

Backstory:

-- Build Notes --

Level 1 [12 CP build]
bab: 0.5 [auto], +1 [2 CP]
base saves: Ref +1 [auto]
skill points: 4 [auto] = 1*4 = 4 + 6 [3] = 10
feats: light ap [auto], simple wp [auto], entry: Track [human], Shield Proficiency [3], Two-Weapon Fighting [4]

Level 2 [8 CP build]
bab: 0.5 [auto]
bases saves: Fort +1 [auto]
skills points: 4 [auto] = 4
feats: Endurance [4], Alertness [4]


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## doghead (Jul 25, 2004)

I don't have a list of concepts - they can come from anywhere. In the original game, everyone was one of the NPC classes, so their concepts sprang out of that - Nate the Blacksmith, Oscar the Noble, Hewik the Herder and so on.

A ranger/hunter/woodsman would be easy to place in Killingtom, the groups destination and where we will start the next ic. Killingtom is a small town/large village serving those who make their living from the surrounding wilds.

But the town is large enough to also include more urban types as well.

For any 'class' abilities, well any abilities really, I would like to see some explaination in the background. Particularly for the more exotic/'fantastic' ones like spellcasting or animal empathy. Narrative coherance takes the place of class progressions in guiding the characters development.

If its an option, you can access the 3.5 SRD  here. I do everything off the SRD. This one is fairly low key as well.

the head of the dog.


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## doghead (Jul 25, 2004)

OK. Just see your new posts and edits.

Stats: Your rolls give you a 23 point character - you can up that to 30 points (if you want).

I don't know Joscelin from Jacqueline Carey's Kushiel. But the idea behind the generation system is to allow players the flexibity to create the concept they want (but not necessarily the complete character - at least not at first level). Hopefully it will work for you here.

doghead


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## doghead (Jul 25, 2004)

I'll be around for a few hours, so if you have any questions feel free to ask.


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## Seonaid (Jul 25, 2004)

If you're still around, the only thing I really have a question on is my character sheet. It's not done (and won't be done any time soon), but if you could take a glance at it before you leave and note anything wrong, that would be lovely. If you'd rather I wait until I'm done, that's fine too. Thanks!

Edit: The question I did have is about proficiencies. WP only applies to one weapon, so if we take that as a new feat, is that still the case?


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## doghead (Jul 25, 2004)

Still here for a bit.

Concept: How about this. Landcarl. Landcarls are individuals given the responsibity for managing the more far flung lands of a lord. Their brief is fairly wide and loose - its more a matter of custom than contract. But basically it boils down to protecting the economic value of the land from being degraded by the activities of others. Whether that be over exploitation or wild beasts. They do not have much authority to order others around directly, but can bring matters to the Baliff, Mayor, Lord or whatever of the region. So their word carries significant weight in many places.

Just a thought. Feel free to weigh in on the idea.

Feats: WP (simple) applies to all simple weapons, WP (matial) applies to one type of weapon (ie : bows or swords), WP (exotic) applies to one type weapon, although the 'types' generally include only one example. I treat Shield Proficiency as a progression from AP (light), although a progression from WP (simple) makes sense also.

CPs: Your CP spend for Level 1 looks fine.


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## Temujin (Jul 26, 2004)

Is there still room for one more? I'm gonna make a character just in case....
yay!


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## doghead (Jul 26, 2004)

STATUS UPDATE
I can't seem to keep it straight in my head

-- active --

*Nate*  L2 Human Male (Blacksmith) - almost complete
DrZombie

*Fredar*  L2 Human Male (Ner-do-well) - almost complete
Maerdwyn

*Craddoc*  L2 Human Male (Mountain farmer) - conversion started
Nac Mac Feegle

*****  L2 Human Male (Forester?) - character started
Seonaid

-- mia --

*Cromwell*  L2 Half-Orc Male (Soldier) - ???
Thomas Hobbes

*Oscar* L2 Human Male (Noble) - ???.
Argent Silvermage

OK, so I'm phutsing. The short answer is that there are four active players and 6 slots. 

So Temujin, making a character is the way to go, I allocate slots on the basis of complete characters rather than expressions of interest. I've see too many of those turn out to be phantoms.

Am I sounding grumpy? Funny, I don't feel grumpy today. Must be the heat - 1am and still not much under 30 degrees.

Friends, Romans and Countrymen.
Give me your characters and I will give you a game.

What an appalling mismash. Time to go.

Just a note on concepts - basically they represent the characters current position or image of themselves. They can change over time. I wonder if it might be worth distinguishing original social position from concept.


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## Temujin (Jul 26, 2004)

Well... this is what I have so far.. I'm figuring for a young, thuggish, streetrat type.

Owen Merrick
Human Male 1
Concept: scoundrel/streetrat

Height: 5'06"
Weight: 164 lbs 
Eyes: brown
Hair: brown (straggly, thick, short)
Age: 24

Initiative: +2 [+2 Dex]
Speed: 30 ft.
Defense: +7 [+3 BDB, +3 BaseRef +0 Size, +1 Shield (TwD)]
Soak: +5 [+2 Con, +0 Size, +2 Armour, +0 Natural Armour +1 Toughness]
BAB: +1
* melee +3 Dagger (1d4+2, 19-20/x2)
* ranged +3 Dagger (1d4+2, 19-20/x2, 10 ft.)
Full Attack: Dagger/Dagger +1/+1 (1d4+2/1d4+2, 19-20/x2)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Sneak Attack +4
Special Qualities: xxx
Saves: Fortitude 3/+5, Reflex 2/+4, Will 1/+3.
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 15, Cha 12
Skills: xxx x/+x [+x Ability, +x Feat, +x Racial]
Feats: Toughness, Sneak Attack +4, Two Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Defense.
Languages: Common, Orc.
Equipment:
* Worn/Carried:xxx (x lb.), xxx (x lb.).
* In Backpack: xxx (x lb.), xxx (x lb.).
* In Pouch: xxx (x lb.), xxx (x lb.).
* On Mount: xxx (x lb.), xxx (x lb.).

Appearance: 

Personality: 

Backstory:

-- Build Notes --

Level 1 [12 CP build]
bab: 0.5[auto]
base saves: WILL +1 [auto], REF +2 [2 CP], FORT +1 [1 CP]
skill points: 4 [auto +1 human] = 5*4 = 20
feats: light ap [auto], simple wp [auto], entry: Toughness [human], TWF [4 CP], Sneak Attack +2 [5 Cp].

Level 2 [8 CP build]
bab: 0.5 [auto]
bases saves: FORT +1 [auto].
skills points: 4 [auto + 1 human] = 5
feats: Sneak Attack +4 [5 CP], Two Weapon Defense [3 CP].


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## Seonaid (Jul 26, 2004)

Is the landcarl concept a stationary one (i.e., tied to the land)? Is it a landowning one, or does the carl merely hold the land for the owner? --Landowner sounds good to me, but I was thinking less stationary and more traveling.

Small changes made to character notes above.


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## Temujin (Jul 26, 2004)

Can I even do that 2nd lvl in sneak attack? Would I have to be lvl 3 or something?  Just wondering...  :\


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## doghead (Jul 27, 2004)

Seonaid said:
			
		

> Is the landcarl concept a stationary one (i.e., tied to the land)? Is it a landowning one, or does the carl merely hold the land for the owner? --Landowner sounds good to me, but I was thinking less stationary and more traveling.
> 
> Small changes made to character notes above.




Just thinking aloud here. 

I saw them as being fairly independant. The typical Landcarl is a more mature hunter or forester who has proven himself to be both knowledgeable about the land and as well as worthy of trust. However, a good number are also younger men who older Landcarls have apprenticed or taken on to assist them.

They are not landowners, or at least, they may own some land, but not the whole area that they are responsible for. That is, the land of the lord or whatever. Nor do they really 'hold' it. Rather, they monitor and protect - medieval Environmental Protection Agency officers in a way. 

Agreements can vary, from payment and property to the right to hunt the land as they need and keep what profits they make from through the exersise of their resoponsibilities. They may work individually or cover larger areas in partnership with others. But the territories covered are usually big enough to mean that they need to spend a fair amount of time living in the wilds. A Landcarl who spends evey night at home in bed is probably not doing his job.

Landcarls generally revere Alirrian. The most devoted, or so inclined, may be members of  Nature’s Tenders: The Tenders worship Alirria as goddess of nature. They encourage harmony with nature. Many wander the wilds, offering the goddess’s aid to her creations. Others live in city-states, helping the people there to live peaceably with nature. Tenders are busiest during planting seasons, when every farmer around seeks their blessings. Druids and Rangers often belong to this sect. (from page one)

Some 'Landcarls' move around, spending no more than a few years in one place (although they are not officially Landcarls while without a commission). They tend to gravitate to area suffering from some form of disruption - incursions or raids by goblins or orgres perhaps.

Let me know what you think. It open for input.


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## doghead (Jul 27, 2004)

Temujin said:
			
		

> Can I even do that 2nd lvl in sneak attack? Would I have to be lvl 3 or something?  Just wondering...  :\




You can do it at Level 2. Thats the idea behind the sysytem - you are not tied to a single common progression of abilities etc. 

Sneak attack is one of those abilities that makes me a tad nervous (along with Rage and Wild shape). Will a level 4 character with sneak attack +8 be a game breaker? There may have to be some toning down of some of the abilities in the future. But for the moment we'll see how it goes.

BTW, Sneak Attack +4 is a progression feat, so it costs [3 CP]. Otherwise the build look fine. I havn't checked the character sheet yet, I'll get back to it tonight.


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## Temujin (Jul 27, 2004)

So how does this chooseing 'class' feats work... suppose I wanted the barbarians DR 1/- or the Monks Diamond Soul ability...  I could make a really scary lvl 2 character with some of those abilities...


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## doghead (Jul 27, 2004)

Temujin said:
			
		

> So how does this chooseing 'class' feats work... suppose I wanted the barbarians DR 1/- or the Monks Diamond Soul ability...  I could make a really scary lvl 2 character with some of those abilities...




Humm, I hadn't really thought about people asking to take 13th level abilities. OK. The simple answer is *DM fiat*.

The longer answer is that it will be a matter of discussion. 

In the case of the Diamond Soul ability, it seems to be a Mind/Body/Soul progression starting with Still Mind. Each one would be the prereq for the next. The progression would be - Still Mind [5], Purity of Body [3], Wholeness of Body [3], Diamond Body [3], Diamond Soul [3], Timeless Body [3], Empty Body [3], Perfect Self [3]. Technically, if you poured all of your CP points into it, you could get to Perfect Self by Level 4. Whoa! Its at this point I would point out that there are no eastern mystical monks in this setting.  OK. Not really.

Someone suggested that all class ability feats should cost 4 CP to progress, an idea that is gaining merit. It does seem a little more balanced to make class based ability and feat progressions require 4 CP (rather than the original 3CP). Entry and general feat progressions costs [3CP] are the same.

I think that I would limit taking thematically linked class based abilities to once per level. 
* ie progression: Rage 3/day [4], Rage 4/day [4] is not possible. 
But you could take two different class based abilities in the same level. 
* ie progression: Rage 3/day [4], progression: Trapsense +3 [4] is OK. 
But it would burn all your CPs.


Thoughts, objections, questions?


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## Maerdwyn (Jul 27, 2004)

doghead said:
			
		

> Thoughts, objections, questions?



1)A couple possible approaches, but I think 4cp/class ability is the simplest, and ltimately probably the best. Might like to chat further with you about the bard progression however (With Temujin playing a sneak attack-type roguish character, I'm leaning more toward a bard-like route, but 13 skill points to get up to inspire courage seems a bit daunting. )

2)Although it would be much more work for you, you could also turn the class abilities into true feats, with pre-reqs of bab, ability scores, other feats, etc. Sure you could spend all the points necessary to get to Perfect Self by 4th level, but only if you don't spend enough points to also get to the Bab+10 that you also need to take the feat. Etc.

3)Different costs could apply to different ablities. A level of Priest spell casting would cost more than, say, a level of paladin spell casting. Also a lot of work, and maybe playtesting. 

4)A limited version of 3: Abilities which are a true progression (Rage 3/day from 2/day; Diamond soul from Diamond Body - one per level, as you suggested above) cost 3 and have the previous abilities as prereqs. New abilities which are in the class progression (quivering palm) cost 4 and still require the previous class abilities as prereqs.


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## Temujin (Jul 27, 2004)

*Here's my finished character! Let me know if there are any problems with it.*

Owen Merrick
Human Male 1
*Concept:* scoundrel/streetrat

*Height*: 5'06"
*Weight:* 158 lbs 
*Eyes:* brown
*Hair:* brown (straggly, thick, short)
*Age:* 24

*Initiative: * +2 [+2 Dex]
*Speed:* 30 ft.
*Defense:* +5 [+3 BDB, +2 DEX,  +0 Size, +0 Shield]
*Soak:* +6 [+2 Con, +0 Size, +2 Armour, +0 Natural Armour +2 Toughness]
*BAB:* +1

*** melee +3 Dagger (1d4+2, 19-20/x2)
** * melee +3 Quarterstaff (1d6+2, x2)
*** ranged +3 Dagger (1d4+2, 19-20/x2, 10 ft.)

*Full Attack:* Dagger/Dagger +1/+1 (1d4+2/1d4+2, 19-20/x2) *or *  Quarterstaff +1/+1 (1d6+2/1d6+2, x2)

*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Sneak Attack +4
*Special Qualities: * Human traits

*Saves: * Fortitude 2/+4, Reflex 3/+5, Will 1/+3.
*Abilities:* Str 14, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 15, Cha 12

*Skills:*

Climb           5/+7 [+2 STR]
Hide            5/+7 [+2 DEX]
Listen          5/+7 [+2 WIS]
MS              5/+7 [+2 DEX]
OL              4/+6 [+2 DEX]
Survival       4/+6 [+2 WIS]
Gather Info.  5/+6 [+1 CHA]

*Feats: * Toughness, Sneak Attack +4, Two Weapon Fighting.
*Languages: * Common, Orc.

*Equipment:*
(wt = 58Lb/116Lb/175Lb)

* Worn/Carried:
Leather Armor (15 Lb.)
5x Daggers (5 Lb.)
Peasant Outfit (2 Lb.)
Quarterstaff (4 Lb.)
Wineskin (4 Lb.)

* In Pouch:
2 x Trail Rations (2 Lb.)
4x Caltrops (4 Lb.)
Signal Whistle


*Appearance: * 
Owen is fairly good looking, with a rougish look about him.  His often dirt covered face, and lopsided grin usually indicates his mischevious ways.  His hair is usually tousled and knotted, falling down over his face.  He usually dresses simple, and likes cotton armwraps, proclaiming their comfort.  Has the habit of sticking his tongue out when he works or concentrates.

*Personality:*
Owen is hedonistic whenever he has money, and dedicated when he's looking for it.  He enjoys spending his spare change on the finer things in life when he has a spare moment.  Owen hates to lose or spend it foolishly on bets and gambling, when it could be used for something more fun and interesting.  Generally outgoing, he comes off as sarcastic and a joker.  He delights in practical jokes, and goes out of his way to set traps and pranks within view of a large audience, in the hopes of a chorus of laughs from the crowd.

*Backstory:*
Owen has lived on the streets as far back as he can remember.  It's a harsh life, but it has taught him to enjoy those times of abundance and wealth; usually after a clean robbery.  With no set goal in life, he lives each day on its own, never caring about what tomorrow will bring.  Currently he has left his hometown, after a misunderstanding involving the constable's daughter.  He now wanders the land looking for a good time and unguarded houses.



*-- Build Notes --*

*Level 1 [12 CP build]*
*bab:* 0.5[auto]
*base saves: * WILL +1 [auto], REF +2 [2 CP]
*skill points:* 4 [auto +1 human]+ 2 (1cp) = 7*4 = 28
*feats:* light ap [auto], simple wp [auto], Toughness [human], TWF [4 CP], Sneak Attack +2 [5 Cp].

*Level 2 [8 CP build]*
*bab:* 0.5 [auto]
*bases saves: * FORT +1 [auto], REF +1 [1 CP].
*skills points:* 4 [auto + 1 human] = 5
*feats: * Sneak Attack +4 [4 CP], Toughness [3 CP].


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## DrZombie (Jul 27, 2004)

Maerdwyn said:
			
		

> New abilities which are in the class progression (quivering palm) cost 4 and still require the previous class abilities as prereqs.



This would make the whole levelless system a bit pointless, I fear. For example, tongue of the sun and moon allows a monk to speak to any living creature, at lvl 17 or such. That's a rather cool ability, but if you'd have to take all the monk abilities to be able to take that feat, maybe you'd be better of just using the class system. Hmmm.

On the other hand, from base classes it's only the monk that has these weird non-chained abilities popping up, the rest is pretty straightforward.

The thing is, doghead, are we using these rules to make characters for this game or are you working on a classless system even the vilest powerplaying munchkin couldn't abuse (well, you know what I mean).
I mean, I'm a bit of a logical thinker, and yes, occasionally a munchkinesque side of my character pops up with weird combos, so I'm more than willing to let this discussion run untill we've got a perfect system and you sell the idea to hasbro for a quarter of the wizard stock, become rich and famous, start your own website and ignore us lesser mortals.

Even so, let's just make 2nd lvl characters that we all think aren't way out there in terms of nasty evil combo's only a 62nd lvl deity could have in the basic system and start playing. I'm having doghead withdrawal symptoms here (easy recognisable by the unceasing tailwagging and sniffing of crotches)


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## doghead (Jul 27, 2004)

Maerdwyn said:
			
		

> 1)A couple possible approaches, but I think 4cp/class ability is the simplest, and ltimately probably the best. Might like to chat further with you about the bard progression however (With Temujin playing a sneak attack-type roguish character, I'm leaning more toward a bard-like route, but 13 skill points to get up to inspire courage seems a bit daunting. )




A5/4CP cost for class ablities is probably the way to go.

Do you mean 13 CP? The bardic music ability is a bit of a confused one, with the progressions being less than obvious. At first glance I would say - entry: Bardic Music [5], progression: Inspire courage [4] should be ok. I know that we have talked about this, but I can't remember what conclusions we came to. I'll go back and hunt it down later. 



			
				Maerdwyn said:
			
		

> 2)Although it would be much more work for you, you could also turn the class abilities into true feats, with pre-reqs of bab, ability scores, other feats, etc. Sure you could spend all the points necessary to get to Perfect Self by 4th level, but only if you don't spend enough points to also get to the Bab+10 that you also need to take the feat. Etc.




DrSpunj and others have done something pretty much along those lines. Its has taken them a lot of time. I don't have the time, or the expertise for something like this. Nor the desire really. Basically, I wanted something that could be pretty much summed up on a single page, and soon committed to memory. Classless Lite.  



			
				Maerdwyn said:
			
		

> 3)Different costs could apply to different ablities. A level of Priest spell casting would cost more than, say, a level of paladin spell casting. Also a lot of work, and maybe playtesting.




As you said, more work, and more to remember. For Paladins and Ranger analogues, would it work to just take a level of cleric or druid spellcasting. It looks like the former just use cut down versions of the spell list and spells per day tables of the latter - so nothing is really lost. For Bards, this is not quite the case as they have a unique spell list. 

I did actually have a spell point system sketched out as well, that would have given all spell casters the same basic spell casting ability in each level. Only the spell lists would differ. This would deal with 'the bard problem', but would mean becoming lab rates for another of dogheads half baked ideas (actually, I think its its a good system, but I do find my ideas make alot of people blanche).



			
				Maerdwyn said:
			
		

> 4)A limited version of 3: Abilities which are a true progression (Rage 3/day from 2/day; Diamond soul from Diamond Body - one per level, as you suggested above) cost 3 and have the previous abilities as prereqs. New abilities which are in the class progression (quivering palm) cost 4 and still require the previous class abilities as prereqs.




What worries me about this is sorting out which is what.

Maerdwyn, let me know what you are thinking of doing, and what concerns you about it and we'll sort out a solution. 

I'll get up a copy of the spell point system for consideration.


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## doghead (Jul 27, 2004)

DrZombie said:
			
		

> This would make the whole levelless system a bit pointless, I fear. For example, tongue of the sun and moon allows a monk to speak to any living creature, at lvl 17 or such. That's a rather cool ability, but if you'd have to take all the monk abilities to be able to take that feat, maybe you'd be better of just using the class system. Hmmm.
> 
> On the other hand, from base classes it's only the monk that has these weird non-chained abilities popping up, the rest is pretty straightforward.
> 
> ...




Oh yes please. Not Trillions. Billions!

But yes. I mean no, I'm not really looking for a munchikin proof system. Bring em on and I'll mow em down.

*He's very gung-ho today, the old doghead.* 
~I'll say. Must be all those junk yard dogbuscuits~
*Not very funny but.*
~Never is, poor bastard.~

Er, where was I? The system. Its open to abuse, and has a few balance issues. Definately. 



			
				DrZombie said:
			
		

> Even so, let's just make 2nd lvl characters that we all think aren't way out there in terms of nasty evil combo's only a 62nd lvl deity could have in the basic system and start playing. I'm having doghead withdrawal symptoms here (easy recognisable by the unceasing tailwagging and sniffing of crotches)




Yes absolutely. All I want is some characters in a game so I can score my first TPK and get my Official Rat Bastard DM T-shirt.


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## doghead (Jul 27, 2004)

Hey Temujin,

I'll do the Build Notes now and work through the character sheet later.

*-- Build Notes --*

*Level 1 [12 CP build]*
*bab:* 0.5[auto]
*base saves: * WILL +1 [auto], REF +2 [2 CP]
*skill points:* 4 [auto +1 human]+ 2 (1cp) = 7*4 = 28
*feats:* light ap [auto], simple wp [auto], Toughness [human], Combat Expertise[entry], TWF [4 CP], Sneak Attack +2 [5 Cp].

*Level 2 [8 CP build]*
*bab:* 0.5 [auto]
*bases saves: * FORT +1 [auto], REF +1 [1 CP], WILL +1 [1 CP].
*skills points:* 4 [auto + 1 human] = 5
*feats: * Sneak Attack +4 [3 CP], Toughness [3 CP].[/QUOTE]


Level 1
Feats: Entry: Combat Expertise cost [4 CP], which would put you 4CP over.

Level 2
Feats: Progression: Sneak attack +4 costs [4 CP]. Sorry, you kinda got caught in the middle on that one.


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## doghead (Jul 27, 2004)

DrZ

On page two there was some feedback and a couple of questions on Nate. Once thats done and the [rg] thread is updated, could you let me know so I can tick him off my list.


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## Seonaid (Jul 27, 2004)

I really like the "landless landcarl" idea a lot, but for some reason it's striking me as -- unfair? ridiculously stereotyped? just plain ridiculous? I'm all for playing what makes me happy, but in this case, I feel like it's too silly. I don't know. Thoughts?

He would be a Tender, yes. All white meat. City bred? I don't know (again/still).

--If you need to start without me, feel free. Don't have my books handy, will look into the SRD online. Character will be done by Friday, but that's days off.


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## doghead (Jul 27, 2004)

Apologies everyone for the slightly manic posts.

I went back and pulled up the spell point system. But I realised that it is going to generate quite a few questions. Perhaps later, when we have the [ic] thread up and running we can consider it.

Maerdwyn, it occured to me that we could just use one of the full spellcaster's _Spells per day_ and _Spells known_ tables. Spellcasters are not my strong point, so I'm not sure which would be the most appropriate off the top of my head. What do you think?


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## Maerdwyn (Jul 27, 2004)

doghead, I don't have too many real concerns   (plus, I was just plain screwed up earlier; my thinking is a little clearer now ) 

Fredar is pretty much ready to go - In character, he has no specific plan.  I'm happy leaving things a little up in the air out of character, too.

I'm Still evaulating whether Bardic Music makes much sense to go for - As it stands, I'm not real sure it does. This is what we talked about earlier:



			
				well it's not really a quote; more like a condensation said:
			
		

> Bardic Music - +2 Perform, +2 Diplomacy, and is the Prereq for the other bardic Music abilities.  5CP
> Inspire Courage, Counterspell, etc. would all be progression feats, 4CP each.



Many bardic abilities are "powered" by bard level - the bonus granted by inspire courage, the DC of the Suggestion save, etc.  How would that work in this system - would it be a separate fat every time the bonus went up?  How many times a day could the abilities be used (standard that you get a number of total Bardic Music uses equal to 1/day/bard level)?

But when it comes down to it, a standard Bard's (not the point, I realize, just for comparison) 1st level music abilities would cost 17CP, but you'd also get the skill bonuses, and possibly three uses per day (one per feat, rather than one per bard level?) rather than one. (5cp for bardic music, 4 each for the music effects). 

Might make more sense to go for a sorcerer spell progression, and take only charm type spells with V,S components (represented by the playing and/or singing) to "simulate" bardic music instead - 5cp for the sorcerer progression, granting up to 7 0th and 5 1st level spells.


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## doghead (Jul 27, 2004)

Seonaid said:
			
		

> I really like the "landless landcarl" idea a lot, but for some reason it's striking me as -- unfair? ridiculously stereotyped? just plain ridiculous? I'm all for playing what makes me happy, but in this case, I feel like it's too silly. I don't know. Thoughts?
> 
> He would be a Tender, yes. All white meat. City bred? I don't know (again/still).




Sorry. I'm not sure I understand what you mean. 



			
				Seonaid said:
			
		

> If you need to start without me, feel free. Don't have my books handy, will look into the SRD online. Character will be done by Friday, but that's days off.




Thanks Seonaid. We'll see how things go.


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## Maerdwyn (Jul 27, 2004)

doghead said:
			
		

> Maerdwyn, it occured to me that we could just use one of the full spellcaster's _Spells per day_ and _Spells known_ tables. Spellcasters are not my strong point, so I'm not sure which would be the most appropriate off the top of my head. What do you think?



Was writing while you posted, and I think we hit on the same idea: 



			
				Me said:
			
		

> Might make more sense to go for a sorcerer spell progression, and take only charm type spells with V,S components (represented by the playing and/or singing) to "simulate" bardic music instead - 5cp for the sorcerer progression, granting up to 7 0th and 5 1st level spells.



I think bard goes best with sorcerer - although some of the class abilities might still be available via the Bardic Music Feat-->Suggestion progression, for example, with all the other requirements (perform ranks, etc) still in place.


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## doghead (Jul 27, 2004)

I just went back to the [rg] thread and realised Fredar is done for level 2. So we are good there. Nate is basically done appart from a few details and an [rg] update. Craddoc is mia. Right. We can get the originals and Fredar out of the town who's name I can't remember (Trolluk?) and into to Killingtom. There we can intergrate Seonaid's and Temujin's characters.

Tomorrow.



			
				Maerdwyn said:
			
		

> Fredar is pretty much ready to go - In character, he has no specific plan.  I'm happy leaving things a little up in the air out of character, too.
> 
> I'm Still evaulating whether Bardic Music makes much sense to go for - As it stands, I'm not real sure it does. This is what we talked about earlier: ...




Maerdwyn - once the [ic] thread is running and the dust has settled, we'll sort out the bard option (and any other options people are considering for level 3). I agree, it does does need some thought.


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## Seonaid (Jul 27, 2004)

Sorry for the confusion. Lack of sleep = lack of coherence.

1) Would a landless landcarl be too stereotypical? Not in your world, necessarily, but in general.
2) I haven't decided yet if I want him to be from the city.
3) He would be a Tender, assuming the order would have him.


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## Seonaid (Jul 27, 2004)

Ability increases will be handled per normal (level-dependent)?

Edit: Garival appears to be done . . . only thing left is the OK and a back story, which is waiting on the OK and any suggestions for ease of transition.


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## Temujin (Jul 27, 2004)

On my first lvl build, when I put Combat Expertise [entry], I didn't mean an entry lvl feat.  Don't we get a feat upon creation? thats what I meant by entry...  

I will fix my 2nd lvl build right away.


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## doghead (Jul 28, 2004)

Temujin said:
			
		

> On my first lvl build, when I put Combat Expertise [entry], I didn't mean an entry lvl feat.  Don't we get a feat upon creation? thats what I meant by entry...




Humans get a bonus feat, but there is no first level bonus feat any more. Or if you want to see this way, the extra 4CP for Level 1 represents that bonus feat.




			
				Seonaid said:
			
		

> Ability increases will be handled per normal (level-dependent)?




Yes. There is an attribute increase at 4th, 8th, 12th, etc. as per normal.

I'm going to make your character the Landcarl of the area around Killingtom.  The Lord of the area lives in Trolluc. You've had the commision for a couple of years. Where or not you are a local or not is up to you. 

As to being a member of the order of Nature's Tenders, leave it open ended for the moment. We can sort out the details once the ic is up and running.

Temujin, I'm going to start you in Killingtom as well, although your character will be from well to the south (further than Trolluc even). I think that the capitol of this March might work. Killingtom is too small a place to have learnt to become a skilled killer. Whatever trouble you got into there, it necessitated putting a fair distance between you and it.


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## doghead (Jul 28, 2004)

Just to let you know. The following inserts have been added to the clean up post.



			
				ic namless II: seventh from seven said:
			
		

> *Insert* Its back breaking and heartbreaking work pulling the remains of people lives from the broken buildings that they once called home. The people work mechanically, and there is little chatter. Only the small children seem unaffected, scambling around and making castles out of the furniture stacked in the streets. Twice during the afternoon Cromwell blacks out without a sound. The priest can find nothing wrong with him, but mutters about a darkness on his soul, the stain of his parentage. It takes three men to haul the snarling Cromwell of the bloodied and bruised priest. From that moment Cromwell says not another world and his expression is unreadable as he is locked away. *End Insert*
> 
> 
> *Insert* It a grey faced Captain that assigns two more men, Gwender and Hadarook to the Seventh. If it even can be called that any more. It clear that he sees the Seventh as some form of nightmare that just keeps getting worse. And that all he wants to do is be done with it. Corporal Gwender is given command.
> ...




The third [ic] is written. I'm just stewing it for a bit. Up tonight.


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## Maerdwyn (Jul 28, 2004)

woohoo!


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## doghead (Jul 28, 2004)

*the third [ic].*

The third [ic] is up here.

Its called *nameless III: lost and found*. I don't know why.

Hadarook is a halfling hunter with a great beast of a riding/hunting dog.

the head of the dog.


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## DrZombie (Jul 29, 2004)

Good work doghead. This has gone from a light simple "country bumpkins go out to the forest and meet some goblins" to  a "battle-fatigued 101st airborne lost in the ardennes surrounded by germans" kinda gritty feel. Claustrophobic, angst-ridden, not-knowing what will hit you next. Very good work. I was looking at the names of the groûp and with Hewik MIA, the only original SfS'er is Nate. Kinda like a slow TPK  . I'm getting worried here, I think there's a pattern. You could've just said you didn't wanna game with me  . I'll try to keep Nate alive as long as possible, just to spite you. 
I'll fix-up the char sheet today, but it's just minor details really. (and yes, I was looking to craft the large hammer. I dunno, maybe I should wait with the exotic weapon profficiency. Hmm. Maybe I'll just go for Martial weapons/hammers or something. Or stick with the heavy mace and try for a shield or some heavier armour. Might help me survive, and I'll take an exotic weapon proficiency later.


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## Seonaid (Jul 29, 2004)

Garival posted in RG. Small changes to skills, shifted one point to another skill and added Alertness bonus. Backstory added also. Let me know if it's not suitable.


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## doghead (Jul 29, 2004)

Seonaid, I've got an early start tomorrow, so I'll take a look at it tomorrow night.

DrZ, Thanks. But a write out is not the same thing as a full pc kill. Still shooting for one of those. I friend of mine used to make us write out a description of "the perfect death" for any character we drew up - slain saving one's loved ones/companions/lord, cut down in dark street while drunk after celebrating a great victory, whatever. Said it gave him a better idea as to what made the character tick.

Personally, I think it makes sense to leave the exotic prof until later. And to be honest, unless the hammer is going to be exceptionally out of the ordinary, martial wp (hammers) would probably do the trick.

Seonaid and Temujin, can I get an email address for you both. You can post here or send to doghead206 at netscape dot net.


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## Seonaid (Jul 29, 2004)

escott04 at cityyear dot org


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## Stagger_Lee (Jul 30, 2004)

I'm a little confused by the goings-on of this thread, but if those two spots aren't full I will submit a character. I had an idea for a male handmaiden (if that's the terminalogy), but am very interested and hence very flexible.


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## Stagger_Lee (Jul 30, 2004)

Name Rhys Travaille
Human Male 2
Concept: Lady's Handmaiden


Height: 5'6"
Weight: 120 lbs 
Eyes: Blue
Hair: Blond, Ear-length
Age: 17
16 16 8 15 10 8
Initiative: +2 [+2 Dex ]
Speed: 30 ft.
Defense: +3 [+1 BDB, +2 Dex]
Soak: +0 
BAB: +1
* melee +1 Dagger (1d4)
* ranged +3 Dagger (thrown) (1d4.)
Full Attack: --
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: --
Special Qualities: Human Traits, 
Spellcasting as 2nd Level Cleric - Domains: Healing, Good - 4 0th level, 3+1 1st level - Powers: Healing +1 Caster Level, Good +1 Caster Level                                                  Prepared Spells: 0th level: Create Water, Purify Food and Drink, Light, Light                        1st Level: Cure Light Wounds (Domain), Bless, Bless Water, Command
Saves: Fortitude 1/+1, Reflex 3/+5, Will 2/+5.                                                               Abilities: Str 8, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 16
Skills: Diplomacy 5/+8 [+3 Cha], Escape Artist 5/+7 [+2 Dex], Hide 4/+6 [+2 Dex], Knowledge (Religion) 5/+4 [-1 Int], Move Silently 5/+7 [+2 Dex], Profession(Pleasure) 5/+8[+3 Wis] Sense Motive 5/+8 [+3 Wis], Sleight of Hand 5/+7 [+2 Dex], Heal 5/+8 [+3 Wis]
Feats: Dodge, Mobility
Languages: Common
Equipment:
* Worn/Carried 2 Daggers, concealed, Cortier's Outfit
* In Pouch: Manacles, 3 Candles, Holy Water, Symbol?

Appearance: 
Slim-hipped and lithe, Rhys's small stature and defined features give him an almost feminine beauty. His carriage is self-assured, though in no way threatening, his eyes sincere. Rather than priestly vestments he is clothed in such a manner that might make him popular in court, were he there.
Personality: 
Rhys believes in self-knowledge through the knowledge of others, and finds Alliria's tenderness in the specifics of those around him - regardless of quirks in question. He loathes suffering, which he believes most "evils" in mankind can be attributed to, and will give freely of himself whatever he can in order to allieve it. Even were he not so kind he would easy to like, for his smirk - both sly and something more - and smooth features. Though this quirky sort of altruism defines him, he is not so honest as he appears - the truth, it seems to him, often serves no better than a pretty lie to those who hear it.

Backstory:
Rhys never knew his father, and his mother was so destitute and miserable that he took to the streets quite young - both to find a bit to eat and to avoid her moods. At the age of 10 he took to petty thievery, and began to find places other than home to sleep. His favorite of these was the Handmaiden's Temple, the workers and priests of which took a liking to him, and he soon spent more time doing small errands for them than lurking about.
These being the people he had known and loved, and having matured quite well in his own right,  Rhys enter Alliria's service himself at a tender 16. There he learned to love in a profound manner, and to heal the minds and bodies of others with his own. This last he did in several ways, though he prefers to hide his divine powers, as knowledge of them tends to interfere with his more "mundane" - though that is not an adjective that he would use.
-- Build Notes --

Level 1 [12 CP build]
bab: 0.5 [auto]
base saves: +2 Reflex + 1 Will [2] 
skill points: 4 + 1 Hum - 1 Int + 4 [2] = 8*4 = 32
feats: light ap [auto], simple wp [auto], entry: Dodge [human].
entry class: Cast spells as 1st level Cleric [5] progression: Mobility [3]

Level 2 [8 CP build]
bab: 0.5 [auto]
bases saves:  +1 Will + 1 Reflex + 1 Fort [2] 
skills points: 4 [auto] - 1 Int + 1 Human + 4 [2] = 8
feats: progression class: Cleric spellcasting [4]


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## doghead (Jul 30, 2004)

Stagger, it did get a little confusing as every time someone appeared, someelse seemed to dissappear. Conservation of Energy I suppose.

The build is spot on. There are slots open, and as you seemed to have presented me with a complete character in one elegant swoop, one of them is yours if you want it.

Seonaid, Temujin and Stagger Lee: I'll go over the characters in full later this evening, and post up a little information about the town of Killingtom, where you will all be starting (and the curent pc's arriving soon).

doghead


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## Stagger_Lee (Jul 30, 2004)

Sounds good, I'm looking forward to it!


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## doghead (Jul 31, 2004)

The Village of Killingtom - a brief overview.

Killingtom lies at the northern edge of the March. It is a frontier village of some 500 souls. They are mostly hunters and trappers, some herders, and timbercutters, and the people who service them. Occasionally, small prospecting expeditions to the mountains to the north use it as a staging point. The village has a reputation for being a fairly rough and ready sort of place. It inhabitants being mostly fairly sturdy and self sufficient types.

There are some farms on the eastern and southern sides of the village that provide the village with the basic staples. To the north lies mostly woods and plains, and beyond that mountains. To the west lies one of the Great Forest. To the south the town of Trolluc and the rest of the March.


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## doghead (Jul 31, 2004)

Character notes for Temujin

*Header* Human Male 2.

*Defense* Sorry this was my bad - could you change 'BDB' to 'BRef' - its easier to keep track of where number comes from that way.
ie *Defense:* +5 [+3 BRef, +2 DEX, +0 Size, +0 Shield]

*weapon stats* gng uses slightly different crit numbers. In your case:
ie Dagger (1d4+2, 8/+0)
ie Quarterstaff (1d6+2, 10/+0)
ie Dagger (1d4+2, 8/+0, 10 ft.)

*Saves* From the Build notes, you have bought only one increase in fortitude.
ie *Saves: * Fortitude 1/+3, Reflex 3/+5, Will 1/+3.

*Backstory* I am going to have Owen a native of the capitol of the March Kingdoms. Killingtom is a fair way from anywhere and the last stop on the road to nowhere. Why do you think that he would have gone there/be there? Perhaps he has no money and can't get away. Perhaps he was caught and has been bonded to a year townservice (it doesn't take the local hunters long to track him down - perhaps the guard commander uses his escapes as training exercises).

Nice character all in all. The Toughness feats were a good call I think.


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## doghead (Jul 31, 2004)

Character Notes for Seonaid

* BAB * Should be 1.5 (effectively +1, but keep track of the fractions). 
ie L1: bab: 0.5 [auto], +0.5 [2 CP]
ie L2: bab: 0.5 [auto]
This will also decrease your defense and to hit bonuses by one. 

* Skills * Got a few more skill points for you. About 30 more.
ie: L1: skill points: 4 [auto] +1 [human] + 6 [3 CP] = 11*4 = 44
ie: L2: skill points: 4 [auto] +1 [human] = 5

* stats * You have a 28 point stat build. You can increase that to 30 points if you want.

Another nice character. I particularly like the incorporation of a family. He is quite young - he may get some stick from the old hands in the village.


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## doghead (Jul 31, 2004)

Character Notes for Stagger Lee

* soak * I'm not sure because this is my first run with gng, but this could really hurt. Something like Shield of Faith would help by increasing your Defense (even more). Mobility will as well, but only in specific situations. I'm not that familier with 3.5, so perhaps yopu've thought this all through much better than I. Just wanted to flag it in case.

* Defense * You can use your BAB or BRef. In your case your BRef is much higher than you BAB.
ie: Defense: +5 [+3 BRef, +2 Dex].

* Weapon attacks * Did your melee to hit inc str penalty? This is also reflected in the dam bonus. Added gng crits.
ie melee +0 dagger (1d4-1, 8/+0)
ie ranged +3 dagger (thrown) (1d4-1, 8/+0, 10 ft.)

* skills * you have spent 44 skill points rather than 40.

How do you see Rhys fitting into Killingtom. Its a fairly small town. I imagine there would be only a couple of orders represented there. Of couse, he could just be visiting. If there was a temple in Killingtom, then Rhys would be a little young to be its High Priest. An older Rhys could fill this role. If not, can you let me know what kind of High Priest you see Rhys working with. I was thinking about the Handmaidens. It seems to me that their emphasis on healing would be quite significant in term of how they are viewed by others.


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## doghead (Jul 31, 2004)

Maerdwyn: I had an idea about the Bardic Music/Bard levels thing. What if Bardic Music acts as the Spellcasting feat for Bards. ie Purchasing Bardic Music 1 allows you to cast spells as a 1st level bard. Bard Music 2 allows you to cast as a 2nd level Bard. The specific Bardic Music abilities would probably be purchased as progression feats.

The down side is that I can see some characters wishing to take the Bardic Music abilities without getting the spellcasting abilities. And it makes getting the particular abilities quite expensive, although each new ability could act as effective +1 increase in you bardic level.

Just thinking out loud here.

the head of the dog.


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## Maerdwyn (Jul 31, 2004)

Has promise, still needs tweaking, though, I'd say.   (I also will just be thinking out loud here, and haven't had much sleep, so this is all "FWIWYMMV" )

+1 Bardic level per ability, combined with the perform-based level limits on when abilities are taken means that one could not advance in bard level each time a chracter level is gained.  (probably not a practical concern, as I'm not sure I can _guarantee_ Fredar will make it to 20th level in anything , but at 20th character level, a given character could only obtain 12 bard levels).  This option is still a possibility.  

Two other possible options:
a)  +1 bard level per level of bard spell progression.  Again, there is an issue of spell-less bards, and expense.  A bard under that system is certainly not going to get very many other skills or feats, etc. as he'll be using almost all his CPs on bard abilities and spells (and can't be good at one without being good at the other.

b)Effective bard level equals  Perform Ranks -3.  This allows a character to spend a resource (skill points) to get better at only those abilities he wants to purchase, rather than having to purchase other abilities to get good at ones he already has.  Also limits bardic level to the character level, and only if perform is maxed out.

As for the entry feat, is there a conceptual difference between the "rage1, 2, 3, trapsense etc." progression  and the  "inspire courage +1, +2, +3, fascinate, etc." progression ?  I guess what I'm asking is what the reasoning is behind requiring an extra feat to get into the bard ability progression, but not into the pregressions of the other classes' abilities? (not saying there isn't any, just wondering how it goes)


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## Maerdwyn (Jul 31, 2004)

random question from the IC thread:
Are we carrying Gwender's body with us?


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## doghead (Jul 31, 2004)

Maerdwyn said:
			
		

> random question from the IC thread:
> Are we carrying Gwender's body with us?



 Good question. I assumed that you weren't. So well play it that way unless anyone objects.


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## Maerdwyn (Jul 31, 2004)

sound good   Just want to make sure a rather heavy load wansn't going to keep me from readying my spear and shield if it happens to become quickly necessary.  Poor Gwender  We hardly knew ye.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Jul 31, 2004)

I'm sorry to say I think I'm going to have to back out of this game.

I'm a little busy in real-life these days, and this is the game I haven't ever really entered, so I think I'll just quietly disappear.


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## doghead (Jul 31, 2004)

*a big (but pretty useless) post*



			
				Maerdwyn said:
			
		

> Has promise, still needs tweaking, though, I'd say.   (I also will just be thinking out loud here, and haven't had much sleep, so this is all "FWIWYMMV" )




Fun Where In What You Might Make Verks?



			
				Maerdwyn said:
			
		

> +1 Bardic level per ability, combined with the perform-based level limits on when abilities are taken means that one could not advance in bard level each time a chracter level is gained.  (probably not a practical concern, as I'm not sure I can _guarantee_ Fredar will make it to 20th level in anything , but at 20th character level, a given character could only obtain 12 bard levels).  This option is still a possibility.




Taking any form of class progression is going to demand a fair bit of sacrifice. Any character taking following a spellcasting progression is going to have to sacrifice quite a lot as it will cost them 4 CP of their 8 CP per level. The goes for most of the other main class ability 'limited' progressions like Rage [9 steps], Wild shape [13'ish* steps] and Sneak Attack [10 steps]. These have a somewaht limited number of progressions available, so characters can specialise till they complete the progression or they can alternate between progressing their speciallity and improving other areas. I'm happy with this. 

From fairly early on I realised that while you can build some sweet combinations, you are not going to get the breadth of a class based character. The leanness of the characters was part of the appeal for me. 

* This one going to need some though for the higher levels as well.



			
				Maerdwyn said:
			
		

> Two other possible options:
> a)  +1 bard level per level of bard spell progression.  Again, there is an issue of spell-less bards, and expense.  A bard under that system is certainly not going to get very many other skills or feats, etc. as he'll be using almost all his CPs on bard abilities and spells (and can't be good at one without being good at the other.






			
				Maerdwyn said:
			
		

> b)Effective bard level equals  Perform Ranks -3.  This allows a character to spend a resource (skill points) to get better at only those abilities he wants to purchase, rather than having to purchase other abilities to get good at ones he already has.  Also limits bardic level to the character level, and only if perform is maxed out.




I've thought about this approach. It does mean that if an high level character with quite a few ranks in perform took Bardic Music, he may be more effective than  a charcter who has had Bardic Music for a number of levels. Is this a problem? Mechanically probably not. Conceptually it seem a little backwards. But it does seem to be the most straightforward.



			
				Maerdwyn said:
			
		

> As for the entry feat, is there a conceptual difference between the "rage1, 2, 3, trapsense etc." progression  and the  "inspire courage +1, +2, +3, fascinate, etc." progression ?  I guess what I'm asking is what the reasoning is behind requiring an extra feat to get into the bard ability progression, but not into the pregressions of the other classes' abilities? (not saying there isn't any, just wondering how it goes)




This is a good point. Having Inspire courage a progression better parallels some of the abilities of the other classes. The use of Bardic Music as an entry was just a hold over from the original rules. 

OK, to summarise

The basic issue is the manner in which the Bardic Music abilities are aquired, and determining the Bard Level in order to calculate the # of times a day they can be used.

Bardic Music Abilities: 
Countersong (Su): 3 ranks, 
Fascinate (Sp): 3 Ranks, 1 creature + 1 per 3 bard levels. 
Inspire Courage (Su): 3 Ranks, +1 (+2 at 8th, +3 at 14th, and +4 at 20th)
Inspire Competence (Su): 6 Ranks, not affected by level.
Suggestion (Sp): 9 Ranks, Will saving vs (DC 10 + 1/2 bard level + Cha modifier)
Inspire Greatness (Su): 12 Ranks, 1 ally, 2 at 12th, 3 at 15th, 4 at 18th
Song of Freedom (Sp): 15 Ranks, caster level equals bard level
Inspire Heroics (Su): 18 Ranks, 1 creature + 1 at 18th. 
Mass Suggestion (Sp): 21 ranks.

OK. It seems a little odd, but using Perform -3 as the effective Bard level does work in a reverse engineering way.

With the classless system, I was looking to give character's the ability to progress key abilities more quickly than was possible in the class system, but to limit automatic progressions. 

The perform skill prereqs make Bardic Music one area in which characters will not be able to specialise in and learn quicker than in the standard class system. Its also has quite a few abilities scale with level. Humm. Tricky.

There is a simple solution somewhere. I'm going to go away and mull it over.


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## doghead (Jul 31, 2004)

Hey Nac

Sorry to lose you.

I hate it when I have to post up "I'm stepping down" posts. It is so tempting to just slip away without a word. Unfortunately, many do just that. So thanks for letting me know.

Good luck.

the head of the dog.


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## Maerdwyn (Jul 31, 2004)

doghead said:
			
		

> There is a simple solution somewhere. I'm going to go away and mull it over.



Sounds good, but it need not be soon; There's a little matter of surviving 2nd level I need to deal with first, and there was rumor of a TPK floating around not long ago


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## Stagger_Lee (Jul 31, 2004)

doghead said:
			
		

> Character Notes for Stagger Lee
> 
> * soak * I'm not sure because this is my first run with gng, but this could really hurt. Something like Shield of Faith would help by increasing your Defense (even more). Mobility will as well, but only in specific situations. I'm not that familier with 3.5, so perhaps yopu've thought this all through much better than I. Just wanted to flag it in case.
> 
> ...





soak - I assumed that he would acquire some light armor before actually setting out anywhere, but since he had no sort of background I left it off for now. I don't know what Shield of the Faith is off the top of my head, my 3.5 knowledge is probably spottier than yours

errors - I'll fix them in my rogue's gallery post, thanks

background - I'm going to up his age a few years, I didn't really mean to have him that young. But I would rather he wasn't the High Priest - I think ideally someone whom he could see as a protective mother figure would work out. I wasn't sure if the town would be have the specific kind of temple, and I can see it either way. I could have been dispatched from someplace larger because of all of the bloodshed, in which case I would play him a little more hardened and serious, or I could be local and just too much of a neophyte to be assigned to anything.

One thing I was thinking, if Temujin didn't mind, was that Rhys and Owen could have been friends from Rhys's street urchin days. This doesn't work so well if Rhys is from elsewhere, I suppose.


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## doghead (Jul 31, 2004)

OK. The Lady's Handmaidens have a small, temple is not right word, House in the village of Killingtom. There is a Head Priestess and two other members of the Order, neither of which are spellcasters. Rhys was sent there to assist the head priest in providing aid to the villagers. Perhpass 6 months ago? The goblin activity is barely a week old at this stage, so it wouldn't be the reason for his presense. But the villagers live dangerous lives anyway and there is always a need for healers.

Yeah, picking up some armour will be possible. Shield of Faith gives you a +2 defection bonus to Defense.

Owen is not a Killingtom local either. From somewhere around the throne city probably.

Actually, linking the backgrounds of Rhys and Owen would make a certain sense. It gives Owen a reason to be in/stay in Killingtom. Perhaps Rhys assisted Owen get out of town when the heat was on. And I imagine having a friend who's handy with a weapon would be nice. Some sort of loyalty from childhood would also work. Although whatever case, the relationship need not be perfectly amicable.

Temujin, what do you think?


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## doghead (Jul 31, 2004)

Maerdwyn said:
			
		

> Sounds good, but it need not be soon; There's a little matter of surviving 2nd level I need to deal with first, and there was rumor of a TPK floating around not long ago




Really? A TPK? How about a TPDA?

Out of curiosity - what in particular are you looking for out of the bard stuff? Spellcasting? The Inspire Courage ability? Fascinate? I was just wondering.


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## Maerdwyn (Jul 31, 2004)

Well, Fredar will be sticking around at least until he's dead or married 

Depending on how events unfold, I'm looking at several of the bardic music effects (inspire courage, greatness, fascinate, suggestion, etc.)  I probably should have taken Perform(singing), instead of woodwinds, or at least taken in instrument that I could sing while playing -- seems like it would be easier to  inspire courage with lyrics instead of just melody; same with implanting a suggestion.  Would that be too late to change?

The spells don't interest me overmuch; They don't seem to fit, and I'd probably be interested in regular feats, skills, and bab rather than spending the CPs for spells. I won't be getting Bardic knowledge - doesn't seem to fit either.  

If Temujin's character and Fredar get along, and Fredar doesn't fall over in combat every 2 rounds, he may go for sneak attack 1 (but not likely further than that anytime soon) so they can work some nasty flanking combos.


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## Stagger_Lee (Jul 31, 2004)

Sounds good. The spells also were not what I imagine he would have prepared when wandering around in a dangerous situation, just what I thought he might actually use on a normal day.


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## doghead (Jul 31, 2004)

Maerdwyn, feel free to change it if you wish. But I'm happy with it being a instrument. It would just be a matter of seeing the music as the medium that allows the suggestion or inspiration to be implanted.

Stagger Lee, thats what I suspected with the spells.

DzZ, "the head of the dog" inn? Sounds familier. Have I been there?

OK, thats it for me tonight. Going to see If I can get some sleep.

the head of the dog ... ?


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## Seonaid (Jul 31, 2004)

doghead said:
			
		

> * BAB * Should be 1.5 (effectively +1, but keep track of the fractions).
> ie L1: bab: 0.5 [auto], +0.5 [2 CP]
> ie L2: bab: 0.5 [auto]
> This will also decrease your defense and to hit bonuses by one.
> ...



I was confused about BAB, and read that wrong.
I was also confused by skill points, and will definitely be putting those to use! Perhaps I can move around some of the CPs I sank into skills.
Looks like 30 points to me . . .?
Great, thanks, etc.

Edit: I think I'm done. I got rid of the skill points, and put them in saves. I added the 11 skill points I was missing even without the CPs. That should be it.


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## doghead (Aug 1, 2004)

Seonaid said:
			
		

> I was confused about BAB, and read that wrong.




Yeah, its not so clear, using a different logic in the explanation from the rest of the notes - gotta update that.



			
				Seonaid said:
			
		

> I was also confused by skill points, and will definitely be putting those to use! Perhaps I can move around some of the CPs I sank into skills.
> Looks like 30 points to me . . .? *It is. Math isn't my strong point. sorry*
> Great, thanks, etc.
> 
> Edit: I think I'm done. I got rid of the skill points, and put them in saves. I added the 11 skill points I was missing even without the CPs. That should be it.




Cool. 

You can use your BAB or BRef (base reflex) to calculate your defense. With your new BRef:
ie *Defense:* +6 [+3 BRef, +3 Dex, +0 Size, +0 Shield]

You have taken Shield Prof but seem to be going with twf and two handed weapons (slings need a free hand to load). You don't actually have a shield     Have you though about taking something like martial wp (something) [3] or Weapon Focus (daggar) [3]?


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## Seonaid (Aug 1, 2004)

doghead said:
			
		

> You have taken Shield Prof but seem to be going with twf and two handed weapons (slings need a free hand to load). You don't actually have a shield     Have you though about taking something like martial wp (something) [3] or Weapon Focus (daggar) [3]?



Short answer: I'm ridiculous.

Solution: I'm swapping out Shield Proficiency for Weapon Finesse.
Edit: In order to do that, I'm dropping +1 Ref [1 CP].
Edit2: Which, in turn, drops my Defense by 1. Sigh. I think everything is okay now.

Thanks, everything else should be done as well.


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## DrZombie (Aug 1, 2004)

doghead said:
			
		

> .
> 
> DzZ, "the head of the dog" inn? Sounds familier. Have I been there?



In the game of trust you mean? Was just for rememberance  .


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## doghead (Aug 1, 2004)

Yeah, I dropped in on the game of trust ooc thread when I saw the recruiting notice. Just curious I suppose. Then I went looking for the fight everyone was so stoked about.


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## DrZombie (Aug 1, 2004)

'twas a good fight, but if Raven had it his way he'd stuck the orc in full plate full of arrows instead of going one-on-one with him. Shooting him full of arrows from a distance wasn't heroic or fair. Well, as the french learned at Agincourt, it might not be heroic but is sure as hell gets the job done.


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## DrZombie (Aug 1, 2004)

Allright, I've updated Nate's character sheet : i swapped the exotic weapon prof for shield prof, and I think it was a progr feat (from armor?) so I took it for 3 pts, if not I'll readjust.


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## doghead (Aug 3, 2004)

I realise that I have pushed the ic thread along in fairly large steps. Maerdwyn will be off for a week or some from the 7th, so I am going to push a little to get the party into town before he leaves.

DrZ and Maerdwyn, I apologise for cutting out some of the interaction opportunities, but I figured that you would understand.

doghead.


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## doghead (Aug 3, 2004)

DrZ, I checked the rg thread but that's not the character sheet you're refering to is it. Could you give me a post or page number or, if you want, just update the rg thread character sheet and I'll check it there.

Yeah, Shield prof is a progression feat - so 3 CP is fine.

doghead


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## Temujin (Aug 3, 2004)

Sorry, I haven't posted, but I was away the last 4 days for the long weekend.  I'll read through all the posts I missed and reply later today/tonight.


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## doghead (Aug 3, 2004)

Hey Temujin

I hope that you had a good weeekend. Your character is all sorted so you are sweet. There is one encounter I need to work through before the party gets to town, so its going to be a few days before I can get you, Seonaid and Stagger_Lee in. My apologies for that. I shall, however, do my best to make the game worth the wait.

Thanks everyone for your effort and patience with the new character generation system. I realise it is still early days, but if you have any thoughts or ideas about possible directions you would like to see your character develop along, let me know (by email if you wish - doghead206 at netscape dot net). In pbp, these things can take a while to grow and bear fruit. Bits and pieces of what is happening now are the result of seeds planted by earlier characters. Some of it is just in there for sentimental reasons ...

regards

the head of the dog


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## Maerdwyn (Aug 3, 2004)

doghead, how much does Fredar know about the previous members of the Seventh and their exploits?


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## Seonaid (Aug 3, 2004)

I would like Garival to find love, but that's hard to do in RP, I think, and anyway, like you said, it will take time.


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## Temujin (Aug 4, 2004)

whoops... double post..  crap.


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## Temujin (Aug 4, 2004)

OK... I can be Rhys's friend from my days in the capital, or even meeting afterwards, when I was wandering.  I updated my character sheet, and here is my current reason for being in Killington.

"  This led him to his second bad run-in with the law, a nasty incident involving the barons mansion. Charged with Tresspassing, breaking and entering, and unlawful trimming of hair, Owen was forced into servitude for the border town rather than death, much to the aggravation of the baron, and now serves his time of a year and a day. The local gentry keep a close watch on him, and constantly dog him to ensure he doesn't slack in his duties.  "

Hope that helps with the character development and ideas


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## doghead (Aug 4, 2004)

Maerdwyn - yes, I would say you would have spoken about what went before and what happened in Trolluc. Both Nate and Hewik were there from the beginning. The easiest answer is to say that Fredar knows whatever you have picked up so far or saw in ic thread if you read it

Seonaid - I'll keep it in mind.

Temujin & Stagger_Lee - I'm going to do it this way. You and Rhys know each other from childhood, having grown up in the same part of town. Owen has had several run ins with the law, but was saved from incarceration after the last one only because of an intervention by the Lady's Handmaidens (who were somehow tangled up in the events, although Owen is not sure how). In lew of a more conventional sentence, the Handmaidens persuaded the judge to place Owen in their service for a year and a day (but in return they have taken responsibility for his actions during that time). As part of that service, Owen have been 'asked' to accompany Rhys to Killingtom where Rhys will be assisting the High Cleric. 

I realise that this creates obligations and power relations between your characters that you might not like - but thats the idea. How your charcters feel about it is up to you - feel free to have them dislike the situation.

No coloured text please. Given the variety of skins available, its inevitable that any colour you choose will be problematic with one of them.

the head of the dog


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## DrZombie (Aug 4, 2004)

Hey doghead. About character development : wel, that kinda depends on what "really" happened in the cottage with that old crazy feller. I'd REALLY like to know what happened. I see Nate as a good-natured kinda feller, but these last days have been quite hard on him, and th eloss of friends weigh heavily on him. Depending on what happens, he might turn into a witch-hunter, a palladin or a cleric. It all has to do with how/why his friends were murdered in that inn. Mail me, you still have my email, or through the email on the boards.


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## Seonaid (Aug 5, 2004)

Note about love: As I said, this is going to be difficult to pull off in RP, but even more so in message board RP. In any event, if this goes anywhere, I can see Garival falling for someone either a lot like himself or not at all like himself. In the background I imagine for him, currently there is no one he would really gravitate to, and there really haven't been anything more than minor infatuations ever during his life.


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## doghead (Aug 6, 2004)

Thanks Seonaid. I'll keep it in mind. To some extent I think it is easier in pbp, as people are sometimes more relaxed about engaging in personal interaction and expressing feelings in a written format than they are in a live one. But either way, we will see what we can do.


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## Maerdwyn (Aug 7, 2004)

Okay folks, I'm off for vacation - please feel free to ghost Fredar, doghead.  See you in a week or so.


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## doghead (Aug 7, 2004)

Cheers Maerdwyn, see you when you get back.

I'm just waiting on DrZ's response, then I'll wrap up the encounter and deposit the party in town.


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## Seonaid (Aug 11, 2004)

I'm running into RL issues that are keeping me from getting online. Things will definitely be sorted out by the 25th, but I can't guarantee anything before then.  I'll try to get online, but it definitely won't be daily and most likely will be perhaps twice before the 25th.


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## doghead (Aug 12, 2004)

Thanks for the heads up. Good luck with whatever it is and see you when you get back.


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## doghead (Aug 23, 2004)

I've been posting up in fairly large chunks. I thought about cutting the post down into smaller parts, which would give people easier access. But I worry that that would slow things down. My thinking was that if you wanted to cut in, you could just quote and cut yourself in. Let me know if its not working for you.

Temujin and Stagger_Lee, are you still with us? If so, please post up in the ic thread within the next 48 hours. Thanks.


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## doghead (Aug 26, 2004)

Hey Temujin

Sorry about the confusion. Glad to see that you are with us. I was thinking that given Owen's postion (in the service to the Lady's church) it would easy enough for him to blag his way into things, such as the barracks, as the clerics aide/assistant/etc. I don't think that the church would have said anything publicly about Owen's past. Most of the villagers probably just see him as a lay member (ie non cleric) of the church. It is quite common for churches to have these. Hope that this helps.

No sign of Stagger though. Looks like I might have to ghost him for bit at the barracks.


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## Temujin (Aug 27, 2004)

Warning (not really). I will be moving to the east coast (Newfoundland, yippee!), and will not have internet installed in my new house for about a week or so.. I'll try to get online a couple times before that, but I can make no promises.  Feel free to boot me or NPC me or such.  Later!


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## doghead (Aug 29, 2004)

Temujin,

There's no need for any booting. Owen can keep a low profile for the mo', and you can pick up when you get back. If anything special happens, I'll ghost Owen to keep him in the picture.

Good luck with the move. Don't leave the packing til the last night.

Thanks for the heads up.

the hea dof the dog


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## doghead (Aug 29, 2004)

All I can say is, don't get immobilised or made helpless. Heres a breakdown.

Corporal: melee -2 whip (1d3, 10/0) [+2 bab, +0 str, non-proficient.]
Nate: Soak 2, Defense 0* [immoblised, Automatic Defense roll 1).

* Technically, -3 (Imobilised: Dex=0, -5 dex mod). But 0 seemed adequet.

Attack Rolls: 16, 6, 7, 14, 2, 15.
Damage (weapon + magin of success - soak): 3+11-2, 2+1-2, 3+2-2, 1+9-2, 2+10-2.

The first stroke would leave Nate Jarred, so the second, the third Staggered, the fourth Unconscious. Total non-damage: 34. 

Three quarters of an hour later, Nate is up and dancing with the young ladies at the tavern. (Non-lethal damage recovers at 1 pip/minute of rest.)

Interesting.

I think that the first, fourth and sixth strokes should have done some damage. Perhaps 1 lethal wound. For colour.

Actually, it seems that the whip is probably not the right weapon for this. Oh well, it will do. Hopefully I'm not going to have to do this too often.


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## DrZombie (Aug 31, 2004)

Yeah yeah yeah, I get the picture doghead. You don't like me and wanna get rid of me. Thats why you attack my character. As a matter of fact I'm gonna go to southern france for a week and think up some witty retorts to post here involving you, some camembert and an entire red-lights-district. You just wait.

In other words I'm going to southern france on holiday from sept 4-11. Cya.


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## doghead (Aug 31, 2004)

Thanks for the heads up DrZ.

Railroading seems to be the big sin these days. I think that my problem is that I play my cards too close to my chest and don't give the players enough direction. I'm working on it, but stirring things up like Nate and Fredar have been doing is a way to bring things to the surface. Nice work. The villagers, at this point, have quite a favourable attitude towards you (despite the fact that you bear bad tidings). I hoped that the bringing food and bedding would show that, but it would be fairly clear from talking to the people there as you eat (so I'll mention it here).

I saw that Argent is back. I was hoping that he would make an appearance, but no sign of him yet. Still, there is one slot left.

I'm going to be editing Craddoc out, so he will probably be fairly quiet and unwilling to do anything other than sit tight and stay out of trouble.

The evening is yours. There is an inn in the village, but it is basically just a tavern with a couple of rooms. Travellers are quite rare. So news and stories from the rest of the region are usually well recieved.


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## Seonaid (Sep 7, 2004)

Part of the reason why I haven't been on as much as I was earlier is that I've been having a lot of difficulties recently. Nothing too horrible, but a lot of different stresses pulling me all different directions. Something else came up this past week, so I haven't been able to get online and probably won't be able to for a while. However, I think now things at work are settling down, so I should be able to get on after work most days. However, _that_ won't start until Monday at the earliest. I can't promise anything, but I'll try to get caught up with this and back into things. Please pass this along to anyone who might need it. Thanks, and I'm really sorry. I'm kind of tempted to drop out of all of my games, so if you feel it's come to that, please do. Thanks and sorry again.


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## doghead (Sep 8, 2004)

Seonaid,

I know what its like to be at the point where your games are a burden rather than a pleasure. So if you feel that pulling out is the best thing for you, I'll understand. 

But I want to keep you here if you want to stay, and will do what I can to help you out. I'm happy to ghost characters so long as I know that player is planning to come back.

As things are, its pretty slow at the moment with several people (including myself unfortunately - sorry all) busy and what not. So it hasn't been an issue so far.

So let me know what you want to do. Until then, I'll work on the basis that you is still with us (and keep my fingers crossed).

doghead


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## Thomas Hobbes (Sep 10, 2004)

Doghead-

Thought I'd poke my head back in here and say that, once I move on the 15th, and things look like I'll be able to post reliably, this will be my first game to (re)join, if you'll have me.  I heard something about a free slot...? 

Edit: Holy smokes!  In the interest of catching up, I read the end of the Seven from Seven.  Dear lord, you do know how to end a chapter...  I really hope I can get back in on this.


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## doghead (Sep 10, 2004)

Thank TH. I'm glad you liked it. I wrote out Oscar and Cromwell in a way that would leave it possible to come back. Cromwell already has come back - in a manner of speaking. If you want in, the slot is yours. Let me know when you are ready.

If Argent pops up as well, that would give us pretty near a full house.

In other news, I'm off for two weeks from the 20th. The timing's a bit lousy, I know. I won't have daily access, but I'll be able to get some here and there. So I'm planning to just play through it, although it will be a little slow.

the head of the dog.


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## Thomas Hobbes (Sep 11, 2004)

doghead-

I'm going to be optimistic about how things are going to turn out and start asking questions about converting Cromwell to the new rules.  

-Since Dexterity can no longer be ignored, even by a wannabe tank, can I switch his stats around a little?  I'm still contemplating whether I will or should, but I'd like to know if the option's open (most likely thing is to take 2 points out of wisdom and to put them into dexterity).

-Does Cromwell keep his shiny breastplate?  Neither Cromwell nor I am paticularly eager to part with it, but no-one else has quite the ph4t l3wt that he does (except perhaps Nate).  I suppose it returns to the original bit about equipment- what fits the background.  We'll have to figure out what's happened to him in the meantime. 

-What level should he be?  The gang's leveled up in my absence, and Cromwell was a level up before.  I'm fine being 2nd, since one doesn't have to actually _be_ more expierienced to _act_ more exierienced. 

All  I can think of for now.


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## doghead (Sep 11, 2004)

*Converting Cromwell*

Getting the leg work out of the way now is a good idea.

* I'm going to use the STR variant of the revised gng rules for this game. But if you wish to do a bit of a fiddle of Cromwells stats or previous feat/skill choices to compensate for the different rules, thats fine. So long as the the new character is true to the old concept.

* Keep the equipment as is. The rules might be changing, but the world isn't. BTW, 'ph4t l3wt'? Fat loot?

* Stick with second. Cromwell got the jump on the others, but probably hasn't enough time under his belt for third yet.

* I have a couple of ideas, but I'm going to hold off on deciding how Cromwell slots back in until you are ready to go. We'll see where things stand then.

the head of the dog


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## Thomas Hobbes (Sep 15, 2004)

doghead-

Here's Cromwell's build notes, with his new stats in the Rogue's Gallery (I ended up keeping the attributes as is), complete with an extended background & flavor text.  As to how to reintroduce Cromwell, it strikes me that while the beating of the priest may have been fairly traumatic (for both parties), the punishment for assault is probably not that great, esp.  considering Cromwell's current military service.  I expect his case would be handled by the militia if it could, with Cromwell's request to be sent to active duty in a time of danger being seen as a point in his favor.  By all of which I mean to say is: depending on how the legal system works, the legal fallout of the incident could be limited to a black mark on Cromwell's record and a few days in the gaol, allowing him to return to active duty fairly promptly.

-- Build Notes --

Level 1 [12 CP build]
bab: 0.5 + 0.5 [2 CP]
base saves: +1 Fort [auto]
skill points: 4 [Auto] +1 [Int] = 5x4 = 20
feats: light ap [auto], simple wp [auto], Weapon Focus: Mace [4], Shield Proficiency [3], Medium Armor Proficiency [3]

Level 2 [8 CP build]
bab: 0.5 + 0.5 [2 CP]
base saves: +1 Fort [auto], +1 Ref, +1 Will [2 points]
skill points: 4 [Auto] +1 [Int] = 5
feats: Endurance [4]

A couple of notes on the, er, build notes:  Cromwell has no Martial Weapon Proficiency.  Considering he's never really used a martial weapon, I think this is OK, and also fits with my idea of him as not working primarily off lots of training, but lots of practice with what he knows (his mace).  The mace also fits with the old warrior-priest archtype (priests in the middle ages, I've heard, got around a provision about holy men not shedding blood by using blunt weapons...).

I also gave him endurance, which he did not have before.  This is because I think it is an excellent "good soldier" feat.  He can sleep in his armor, and the +4 to con checks helps for long marches.

As he levels up, he's likely to keep increasing Fort, Will, BAB, and adding Toughness feats until he's reached the limit.  After that, we'll see.


----------



## doghead (Sep 15, 2004)

*re: Cromwell*

One of the unexpected side effects of the system is that you will see a lot more crossbows, maces and spears, and a lot less martial weapons about. If you do see a unit of heavily armed pikemen, then they are probably fairly well trained unit. Which has a much more realistic feel that the "every fighter is a master of many weapons" feel of the standard rules system.

Otherwise it all looks good. On bringing Cromwell back in, are you ready to roll now?


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## Thomas Hobbes (Sep 15, 2004)

Having stayed up all night packing (and procrastinating), I'm leaving shortly to board the aforementioned cross-country plane.  Thus, won't know what, precisely, I'll be able to do internet-wise for about 24 hours.  I should be able to tell you then, though.


----------



## doghead (Sep 15, 2004)

Have a good flight. See you when you get sorted.


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## Thomas Hobbes (Sep 17, 2004)

doghead- internet access is likely to be good, but it looks like I'm going to be working 12+ hour days, 7 days a week.  Or so they tell me.  I wouldn't feel worried about it, except they're also giving me _responsibility._  All quite intimidating for a recent high-school graduate.

Anyway, I'll stick with the games I'm already in, but unless this turns out to be less time-intensive that I think it will, you'll have to wait until november for my scintillating posts.


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## doghead (Sep 18, 2004)

TH - so long as you're interested in bringing Cromwell back in, I'm happy to keep him in the wings.

Good luck with the job. 

Everyone - if TH is going to play hard to get, let plays "Whats his job?" My guess is he's joined the military. 12 hours a day 7 days a week, and 6 weeks till you get more free time - that would be basic training.

TH, if you don't want to tell, thats cool. Not trying to wrangle it out of you or anything. Honest.


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## doghead (Sep 18, 2004)

Just a reminder that I'm off in about 24 hours. I'll see you again in two weeks. 

Play nice with my game please.

the head of the dog


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## Thomas Hobbes (Sep 19, 2004)

Dear lord, I wouldn't last 5 minutes in the military.  No, I'm working the election season as a full-time volunteer. 

Fortunately, it's not as rigorous as I thought, and the offices have net access... see you in a few weeks, doghead.  Perhaps I'll join you then.


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## doghead (Sep 19, 2004)

Good luck. And have fun.

the head of the dog


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## Seonaid (Sep 23, 2004)

Okay, this obviously isn't working. I don't know what to do about it, but I need to drop the campaign.  I don't know if/when I'll be able to come back, so feel free to kill Garival if necessary. I'd love to return some time, but I can't promise anything and I hate stringing you along as I have been.


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## doghead (Oct 6, 2004)

Seonaid: Sorry to hear that you are leaving us. There is no reason to kill Garival, unless you wish me too. If not, he'll be around should things change and you wish to rejoin us. Don't be shy about dropping in down the track.

Maerdwyn, TH and DrZ: Once you're done, I'll get things moving again. Temujin is still with us as far as I know. So I'll ghost Owen. Other than that we will move with who we have.   

Stagger: If you are still with us, now's the time to pipe up.


----------



## DrZombie (Oct 6, 2004)

Basically we were just fooling around. I'm kinda ok to finish the fight after this round, as soon as Nate realises what he's doing he'll prolly feel a bit ashamed  . I'm just curious to see how raging affects my attacks. Ready when you are, basically.

Oh, and, welcome back, I hope you had a good time.


----------



## DrZombie (Oct 6, 2004)

Btw, doghead, are we using the dex for all attacks optional rule?


----------



## Maerdwyn (Oct 6, 2004)

I'm just going to finish the round with the dice roller, if that's okay


----------



## DrZombie (Oct 6, 2004)

No worries. I noticed you link all the rolls you make in the T20 PbP. I know what a crappy work that is, and it takes a lot of time. Don't bother with it. I've only checked the first link to see what the diceroller looked like, but I couldn't care less wether you used a diceroller, rolled a live d20, trained a parrot to randomly repeat numbers between 1 and 20 every time you give him a peanut, or made up every single roll. 

Just mu thoughts, i don't know if doghead agrees, but i don't think he has ever linked a roll when he's mastering  .


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## Maerdwyn (Oct 6, 2004)

Yeah, I can probably ditch it - it's a relic of a...shall we say...contentious... game I used to play in. 

Also in T20, the party has gotten an awful lot of bad news over the past couple game weeks. Until the player got to know me, I wanted to make sure they knew I was at least being straight with them on the dice rolls. It's been a year or so now though, so I hope that's less of a concern 

BTW, if you look in the IC thread, I think the end of the spar is just about upon us.  Nate with an AoO and another attack following it.


----------



## doghead (Oct 7, 2004)

The parrot is fine. Personally, I use a trained hamster, two thumb tacks and a bottle of ketchup. But the actully method is closely guarded family secret so I can't say any more.

And Maerdwyn is not joking about the bad news.

I generally try and keep the game as seemless as possible, doing a lot of rolls here and there as I write the posts. I don't generally post the rolls, particularly where knowing the result can influence how you see the outcome - ie a sense motive check.

The combat looked interesting. It seemed a little more difficult to hit, but get a good one in and the fight can be almost over. The penalties add an interesting dimension as well. It may pay, in the interrest of keeping things moving, to call a critial type when making an attack. That way, if you score one, I can just deal with at the time rather than going back and asking what you want you want to do when they happen.

We're going with the str version of the rules. I like dex fighters, but generally, IR, the big guy wins. I've though about ways of incorporating both, but its gets too complex. So Str version it is. There  is always the Weapon Finess feat.


----------



## Thomas Hobbes (Oct 8, 2004)

A note on raging and power attack:

Generally speaking, a bonus to hit is also a bonus to damage, since the higher you roll the more damage you deal.  So you favor a +1 to hit over a +1 to damage.  By the same token, a penalty to AC is also a penalty to soak, because you take more damage the lower you roll on the defense roll.

This changes Rage significantly and makes power attack well-nigh useless.  Power attack is fairly self explanatory: trading "to hit" for "damage" is not worth it because "to hit" translates into extra damage as well.  In a normal D&D game, Power Attack is a way for fighter with massive attack bonuses to convert that into damage.  Here, it does worse than nothing.  Perhaps we could house rule it so that a one-handed power attack offers a 2-for-1 trade, as a 2-handed attack does in the normal rules, and a 2-handed attack offers a 3-for-1 trade.  This sets up again the original dynamic of hitting harder but less often.

Rage is still fairly useful.  The Strength bonus now is doubly beneficial, because it adds to "to hit" AND "damage."  However, the penalty to AC and the bonus to Consitution negate each other in terms of attack rolls (2 more points of damage very time you get hit and 2 more points of soak), and actually a bit more than that, because you get hit more often AND every time you get hit you take more damage.  The extra soak is actually extra DR with everything that doesn't require an attack roll, however.

So the overall affect is +2 hit and damage (which means +4 to damage), you get hit slightly more often with no damage change on any individual hit, +2 to Fort Saves and +2 to Will saves.  Still worth it, methinks.  Perhaps some extra soak is justified (1 or 2 points).

Anyway, I'm ready to join in.


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## doghead (Oct 8, 2004)

TH. Thanks for the breakdown. The 2-1 and 3-1 trade on power attack is a bit scary. Perhaps 3-2 (single handed attack) and 2-1 (double handed attack)? Cos whats good for the goose ... 

Feel free to make a grand IC entrance at any now. If you want to check anything before you do, email me.

It was August when Temujin said he would be away for a week. So we may have lost him. That leaves three. I can work with that if you are happy to. With just three we should be able to move quite quickly. Let me know what you think.


----------



## DrZombie (Oct 8, 2004)

Hey, I kept on  playing when I was the only one left, so, for me, 3 is a crowd  ?


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## doghead (Oct 9, 2004)

DrZ, when you transfer your character to the rg thread, remember to change his level description to "2nd". Thanks.


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## Thomas Hobbes (Oct 10, 2004)

Will do, Doghead.  I figure Cromwell's back on duty after some time in the military pokey; on probation, he's travelled back to his unit to reassume command under the local sarge.  Cromwell's likely to remain the alliterative corporal for a while due to this incident, I expect.


----------



## Maerdwyn (Oct 13, 2004)

doghead -

What are our characters' physical conditions at this point?

Thanks


----------



## doghead (Oct 13, 2004)

Pretty sore?

Characters recover one non-lethal pip per minute of rest. Fredar will have time to get out of staggered before the meeting (Jarred: -2 penalty to most rolls). Nate will probably be back around Not Affected by the time the meeting starts. The meeting wont be particularly strenuous so you'll probably be back to Jolted after 10-15 minutes or so and back to Not Affected after about half an hour.


----------



## doghead (Oct 23, 2004)

TH, just make sure that we haven't got crossed lines, you can jump in whenever you want. You don't need to wait for an introduction from me.

That said, I'm going to start finishing up the meeting tomorrow. I apologise for the slow pace of posting at this end at the moment.


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## Thomas Hobbes (Oct 24, 2004)

Yeah, I know, but I've been holding off due to work business.  However, it seems that work consists of rush-lull, rush-lull, I'll have Cromwell entering the town soon.  What precisely do you want him to tell the sargeant about his orders, or anything else?  Sealed letter?


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## doghead (Oct 24, 2004)

TH, [sblock]I don't think that Cromwell would be sent on to join the seventh. It would be too dangerous to send him alone. And the guard captain at Trolluc would be unwilling to commit more men to the journey. ie "A squad has been sent already, that is enough. You can stay here until new orders arive, then join the Seventh."

Through Argent's intervention and advocacy, Cromwell has been cleared of wrong doing, or found guilty of only a minor offence. So he is free to go back to duty. Perhaps, as you mentioned, busted down to corporal, perhaps a whipping. And thus Cromwell's bind. The guard captain hasn't exactly ordered Cromwell to stay, but won't give orders for him to continue on to Killingtom and rejoin the Seventh. Leaving Trolluc would be a violation, but not rejoining the Seventh would be a greater one? An unpleasant choice for Cromwell. A conflict of duties. A dilemma, and I do like the odd dilemma now and then. It gives the game flavour.

So, assuming that Cromwell would choose to rejoin the Seventh, this is how I would like to  play it. Thus no written orders.

Of course, if you think Cromwell would choose to stay in Trolluc (and I know how _characters_ can be willful at times), then this is obviously not a workable scenario and we would need to rework it.[/sblock]


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## Thomas Hobbes (Nov 9, 2004)

Doghead, 



Spoiler



Cromwell will definately rejoin the Seventh.  And leave a note explaining his reasons for the guard captain, because that's the kind of stiff necked guy he is.  Ha!

Should Cromwell be there when they return?


----------



## doghead (Nov 28, 2004)

A Heads Up.

It looks like I'm going to be away from the keyboard for about a week. At this point looks like it will be from the 9th to the 14th of December. During this time I suspect that my internet access will be minimal.

the head of the dog.


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## doghead (Mar 4, 2005)

Apologies.

I haven't forgotten about you guys, I have been procrastinating. The usual stuff - work, life etc has been leaving me a little flat. 

If you are still here when I return, I will give the game a big kick-a-long.


the head of the dog.


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## DrZombie (Mar 4, 2005)

I'm still here


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## Maerdwyn (Mar 4, 2005)

me too


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## doghead (Apr 4, 2005)

I have been dodging this for too long now. 

I find running a game a lot harder than playing in one, and at the end of the day it is much easier to front up as Saanath, my merchant adventurer, or Lucan, my human pit fighter, than as the GM, the font of all things. Seeing me post everywhere but here, as players in _nameless_, must irritate the hell out of you. It would me. Which brings us to the reason for this little confession. If you want to step down in order to invest your energies with someone more reliable, I will understand.

There are currenty 8 in game: Nate, Fredar, Cromwell, Craddoc, Hadarook, the goblin sharman and her two guards. Morning approaches the hill top ruins.

So its now time to put up or shut up shop, to see who's hot and who is not here.

thotd


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## Maerdwyn (Apr 4, 2005)

doghead, we all have dry spells 

I'm going to stick around, so if you keep going, I'll be here. With that little confession, that's already more news from the Gm than I get in most of the games I've joined


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## DrZombie (Apr 4, 2005)

Hahhaaa, another feeble ploy of yours to get rid of me. It won't work.  .

Seriously, doghead, I enjoy this game tremendously. If you want to wait for the inspiration faerie to kick you in the privates, no problem with me. I'll just wait.

Cheers.


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## doghead (Apr 7, 2005)

Hey guys,

Given the current circumstances I thought a little meta-game discussion might be appropriate.

Obviously one path from here is to seek out the place the "traitor" is looking for as the Shaman wants you to. I'm not keen on running npc's, but if you go down this path, it may be an idea to have an extra body in the party. There are four candidates - Cromwell, Craddoc, Hadarook, or one of the goblin warriors. Each of them has their own advantages, and I couldn't really say which would be the most useful. If this is the path you want to take, let me know who you want as the npc, and I'll work it to play out that way.

This is not meant to be a "push" to get you to go that way. Honestly.  

thotd.


----------



## Maerdwyn (Apr 7, 2005)

Well, Fredar is about suggest that we leave a hostage (possibly him) with the gobbos as surety until the shaman gets back from town.  If that or something else doesn't work to convince her to go to town, Fredar will push to go on the search.   

While Cromwell might be a logical choice, I'm not sure he'd be good as an NPC because it would be Fredar's tendency to alternately defer to his leadership and rebel against his authority- both of which puts pressure for party decisions on the DM instead of players.

I'm thinking maybe Hadarook for his scouting and outdoor skills?


----------



## DrZombie (Apr 7, 2005)

Pick one, I don't really mind wich one. The gobbo, perhaps, so we have someone who speaks goblinoid with us.


----------



## doghead (Apr 7, 2005)

While Cromwell does in some ways seem the natural choice, I did wonder to what extent it would leave me running the party.

Hadarook also speaks goblin


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## Seonaid (Apr 11, 2005)

doghead said:
			
		

> *Garival* Human Male 2 - Landcarl
> Seonaid - retired due to RL concerns.
> The character will stay in the wings should she wish to return.



Seonaid wishes to return . . . but hasn't had time to catch up on the OOC and IC threads.

I take it ya'll are still alive . . . in which case I'll do that. Let me know.


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## Maerdwyn (Apr 11, 2005)

Hi Seonaid!  We're still kicking   (So is Ktarle, by the way...no pressure, but I'd love to have you join up there, too )


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## doghead (Apr 11, 2005)

*its hard to type with your fingers crossed ...*



			
				Seonaid said:
			
		

> Seonaid wishes to return . . . but hasn't had time to catch up on the OOC and IC threads.
> 
> I take it ya'll are still alive . . . in which case I'll do that. Let me know.




Hey Seonaid,

Nice to see you again. I just saw your post in the _Storms_ thread. I had my fingers crossed that you would also pop up here.

Being the omniscient, omnipotent and omnivorous DM, I can do anything. If you want in, I can make it happen. There's not much ground to cover, so it shouldn't take long to catch up. Keep an eye on the IC thread.

thotd.


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## doghead (Apr 11, 2005)

Hey all, Seonaid's return gives me the opportunity to introduce some new characters. I'm going to open recruiting. But only for 36 hours  as I don't want to slow things down.

thotd.


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## khavren (Apr 11, 2005)

I think I did this right, but I don't actually know the gng system at all, so I figured I'd post what I've got and see how I was doing before I took the time to write up the complete backstory and the gear. I'm aiming for a traveling salesman type who makes potions and brews, some that actually work, some that rely on sugar, alchol and a fast line of patter.

Name  Fenix
Race Human Gender Male Level 2
Concept: Wandering alchemist/snake oil salesman

Height: 5'7"
Weight: 173 lbs 
Eyes: Blue
Hair: Brown
Age: 26
Initiative: +2 [+2Dex, +0 Feat]
Speed: 30 ft.
Defense: +x [+x BDB, +x Size, +x Shield]
Soak: +x [+x Con, +x Size, +x Armour, +x Natural Armour]
BAB: +1
* melee +2 Hvy Mace (1d8+1, x2)
* melee +2 Dagger (1d4+1, 19-20 x2)
* ranged +3 sling (1d4+0, x2, 50 ft.)
* ranged +3 Lt x-bow (1d8+0, 19-20 x2, 80ft.)
Full Attack: xxx
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: xxx
Special Qualities: xxx
Saves: Fortitude 2/+1, Reflex 1/+2, Will 3/-2.
Abilities: Str 12, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 7, Cha 16
Skills: xxx x/+x [+x Ability, +x Feat, +x Racial]
appraise 2/+2 [+2 Int, +0 feat, +0 racial]
Bluff 5/+2 [+2 Int, +0 feat, +0 racial]
Concentration 1/+1 [+1 con, +0 feat, +0 racial]
Craft (alchemy) 5/+2 [+2 Int, +0 feat, +0 racial]
Diplomacy 5/+3 [+3 Chr, +0 feat, +0 racial]
disguise 1/+3 [+3 Chr, +0 feat, +0 racial]
escape artist 1/+2 [+2 Dex, +0 feat, +0 racial]
gather information 1/+3 [+3 Chr, +0 feat, +0 racial]
handle animal 1/+3 [+3 Chr, +0 feat, +0 racial]
hide 1/+2 [+2 Dex, +0 feat, +0 racial]
intimidate 3/+3 [+3 Chr, +0 feat, +0 racial]
move silent 1/+2 [+2 Dex, +0 feat, +0 racial]
open lock 1/+2 [+2 Dex, +0 feat, +0 racial]
perform (oratary) 5/+3 [+3 Chr, +0 feat, +0 racial]
Ride 1/+2 [+2 Dex, +0 feat, +0 racial]
Search 1/+2 [+2 Int, +0 feat, +0 racial]
Sense motive 5/-2 [-2 Wis, +0 feat, +0 racial]
Sleight of Hand 5/+2 [+2 Dex, +0 feat, +0 racial]
spellcraft 3/+2 [+2 Int, +0 feat, +0 racial]
spot 1/-2 [-2 Wis, +0 feat, +0 racial]
tumble 1/+2 [+2 Dex, +0 feat, +0 racial]
surivival 1/-2 [-2 Wis, +0 feat, +0 racial]

Feats: Brew Potion
Languages: Common
Equipment:
* Worn/Carried:xxx (x lb.), xxx (x lb.).
* In Backpack: xxx (x lb.), xxx (x lb.).
* In Pouch: xxx (x lb.), xxx (x lb.).
* On Mount: xxx (x lb.), xxx (x lb.).
Appearance: 
Personality: 
Backstory:
-- Build Notes --
Level 1 [12 CP build]
bab: 1 [2]
base saves:  + 2 Will +1 Fort +1 reflex [3] 
skill points: 4 + 1 Hum +2 Int + 4 [2] = 11*4 = 44
feats: light ap [auto], simple wp [auto], entry: Brew Potion [human].
entry class: Cast spells as 1st level Sorcerer [5] 

Level 2 [8 CP build]
bab: 0.75 [1]
bases saves: +1 Will  + 1 Fort [1] 
skills points: 4 [auto] + 2 Int + 1 Human + 4 [2] = 7
feats: progression class: Sorcerer spellcasting [4]


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## Seonaid (Apr 11, 2005)

Hehehee . . . undead wolves, gigantic centipedes, and a small matter of willing prisoners. It's a good time for Garival to come back.


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## doghead (Apr 12, 2005)

khavren said:
			
		

> I think I did this right, but I don't actually know the gng system at all, so I figured I'd post what I've got and see how I was doing before I took the time to write up the complete backstory and the gear. I'm aiming for a traveling salesman type who makes potions and brews, some that actually work, some that rely on sugar, alchol and a fast line of patter.
> 
> Name  Fenix
> Race Human Gender Male Level 2
> Concept: Wandering alchemist/snake oil salesman




_Wandering alchemist/snake oil salesman._ I am always impressed by the players ability to surprise me. Nice concept. What's the starting gold for 2nd level, about 900? Something in that ball park will do, but not too much gold in pouch. Feel free to add up a few 'creative' potions as well the usual type - I might even let them work.



			
				khavren said:
			
		

> -- Build Notes --
> Level 1 [12 CP build]
> bab: 1 [2]
> base saves:  + 2 Will +1 Fort +1 reflex [3]
> ...




khavren - this all looks good. Nice work. We can work out the other details of the character over then next few days. Feel free to ask me about anything. 

Seonaid and khavren - I'm going to put you and Seonaid into the IC thread shortly. (I'll give it 24 hours then close the recruiting) It will involve a little ghost hacking, hope that you don't mind.

Dr Z, Maerdwyn and Seonaid - can you give your characters a once over in the RG thread to make sure that they are all up to date. Thanks.

thotd.


----------



## Seonaid (Apr 12, 2005)

I may regret this later , but I trust you implicitly, doghead. Hack away.

Garival seems to be fine, unless something happened of which I am not aware.


----------



## Seonaid (Apr 13, 2005)

khavren: I didn't mention it in my post, but you can read my spoilers. I'll mention it if you can't, but that doesn't seem likely.


----------



## khavren (Apr 13, 2005)

Sounds good all round, if someone could point me in the direction of the IC thread I'll get to reading up while I try to par down my gear selection. Btw, I was figuring I'd have a custom built wagon pulled by 4 mules for my traveling sales cart/living quaters, Base cost for a wagon is 35 gp, should I treat it like masterwork and tack on 300gp to that or do something in between like it cost 200gp to get it built?


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## doghead (Apr 13, 2005)

I must say I don't understand it. After taking the time to work through the classless generation system (and get it all right), khavren seems to have disappeared. I wonder if Fenix is going to be another added to the list of dead in this game.

I'm building quite a tally, but they have all been _coupe de graces_. I haven't managed to kill any one in a straight up, toe to toe fight.

Humm ...


----------



## doghead (Apr 13, 2005)

Speak of the devil. Hey kharven. Ready to roll? The ic thread is here. 

As seonaids mentioned, you can read the spoiler text she posts.

Have fun.


----------



## khavren (Apr 13, 2005)

I'm still reading through the IC thread, but just to double check, the terrain would make taking the wagon difficult correct?


----------



## doghead (Apr 14, 2005)

Yeah, a wagon would be difficult. We can discuss the possibility of having a lab, or at least access to one, somewhere later.

At the moment, take what you can carry and put in a bag. At this point, you wouldn't be expecting to be way from Killingtom more than a couple of days - so the 2 days rations and water is spot on.


----------



## khavren (Apr 17, 2005)

A more complete sheet:

A traveling salesman type who makes potions and brews, some that actually work, some that rely on sugar, alchol and a fast line of patter.

Name Fenix
Race Human Gender Male Level 2
Concept: Wandering alchemist/snake oil salesman

Height: 5'7"
Weight: 173 lbs
Eyes: Blue
Hair: Brown
Age: 26
Initiative: +2 [+2Dex, +0 Feat]
Speed: 30 ft.
Defense: +x [+x BDB, +x Size, +x Shield]
Soak: +x [+x Con, +x Size, +x Armour, +x Natural Armour]
BAB: +1
* melee +2 Hvy Mace (1d8+1, x2)
* melee +2 Dagger (1d4+1, 19-20 x2)
* ranged +3 sling (1d4+0, x2, 50 ft.)
* ranged +3 Lt x-bow (1d8+0, 19-20 x2, 80ft.)
Full Attack: xxx
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: xxx
Special Qualities: xxx
Saves: Fortitude 2/+1, Reflex 1/+2, Will 3/-2.
Abilities: Str 12, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 7, Cha 16
Skills: xxx x/+x [+x Ability, +x Feat, +x Racial]
appraise +4------------[+2 Int, +0 feat, +0 racial]
Bluff 7-----------------[+2 Int, +0 feat, +0 racial]
Concentration +2------[+1 con, +0 feat, +0 racial]
Craft (alchemy) +7-----[+2 Int, +0 feat, +0 racial]
Diplomacy +8----------[+3 Chr, +0 feat, +0 racial]
disguise +4------------[+3 Chr, +0 feat, +0 racial]
escape artist +3-------[+2 Dex, +0 feat, +0 racial]
gather information +4--[+3 Chr, +0 feat, +0 racial]
handle animal +4-------[+3 Chr, +0 feat, +0 racial]
hide +3----------------[+2 Dex, +0 feat, +0 racial]
intimidate +6-----------[+3 Chr, +0 feat, +0 racial]
move silent +3---------[+2 Dex, +0 feat, +0 racial]
open lock +3-----------[+2 Dex, +0 feat, +0 racial]
perform (oratary) +8---[+3 Chr, +0 feat, +0 racial]
Ride +3----------------[+2 Dex, +0 feat, +0 racial]
Search +3-------------[+2 Int, +0 feat, +0 racial]
Sense motive +3-------[-2 Wis, +0 feat, +0 racial]
Sleight of Hand +7-----[+2 Dex, +0 feat, +0 racial]
spellcraft +5-----------[+2 Int, +0 feat, +0 racial]
spot -1----------------[-2 Wis, +0 feat, +0 racial]
tumble +3-------------[+2 Dex, +0 feat, +0 racial]
surivival -1------------[-2 Wis, +0 feat, +0 racial]

Feats: Brew Potion
Languages: Common
Equipment:
* Worn/Carried:xxx (x lb.), xxx (x lb.).
* In Backpack: xxx (x lb.), xxx (x lb.).
* In Pouch: xxx (x lb.), xxx (x lb.).
* On Mount: xxx (x lb.), xxx (x lb.).
Appearance: Fenix is an average looking human, 5' 7", he is neither very tall nor short and at 150 pounds not too thin or heavy. His brown hair and eyes do nothing else to establish him, but he has a smooth rolling deep voice, and a gleaming white smile which he uses to great effect when selling his wares. 

Personality: Full write up coming
Backstory: Full write up coming

Spells:!

I should be able to cast 6 0th level spells and 5 1st level spells
I know 5 0th and 2 1st

My selection is:
0th:
Mage Hand
Detect Magic
Read Magic
Mending
Prestidigitation

1st
Summon Monster 1
Magic Missle

Here is my basic gear outlay, let me know if I need to change anything.
[sblock]
Barrel 2gp 30lb
Basket (2) 8sp 2lb
Bedroll 1sp 5lb
Blanket 5sp 3lb
bucket 5sp 2lb
candle (4) 4cp
Chalk 1cp
Chest 2gp 25lb
Fishhook (2) 2sp
Flint & steel 1gp
Clay jug 3cp 9lb
lamp (2) 2sp 2lb
lock (ave) 40gp 1lb
Clay mug 2cp 1lb
oil flask (4) 4sp 4lb
Iron Pot 5sp 10lb
Belt Pouch (1) 1gp .5lb
Rations (2) 10sp 2lb
Hemp rope (100) 2gp 20lb
Sack (2) 2sp 2lb
Sealing Wax 1gp 1lb
Sewing needle 5sp
Soap 5sp 1lb
Spade 2gp 8lb
tent 10gp 20lb
vial (20) 20gp 2lb
Waterskin 1gp 4lb
Whetstone 2cp 1lb
Alchemists Lab 500gp 40lb
Spell component 5gp 2lb
Custom Wagon 135gp 400lb
Mule (4) 32gp
Feed (12) 60cp 60lb
Artisans Outfit 1gp 4lb
Entertainers out 3gp 4lb
Scholars outfi 5gp 6lb
Travelers outfit 1gp 5lb
Acid Flask 4gp 1lb
Alchemist Fire 7gp 1lb
Antitoxin vial 17gp
Tanglefoot bag 17gp 4lb
Tindertwig (24) 8gp
Heavy Mace 12gp 8lb
Dagger 2gp 1lb
light crossbow 35gp 4lb
10 bolts 1gp 1lb
Sling
Bullets (20) 3sp 10lb

877 gp 57 sp 72 cp
706lbs total

Extra special potions:
Fenix's fine extra special youth restorative (men) Garantueed to put more hair on your head and more juice in your johnson! (5)
Fenix's felicitating female fancy facial masq (women) Smooth it on every night and watch the wrinkles fade away! That tingling senasation means it's working! Can also be used to dye hair and clothing! (7)
Fenix's filtered functional fix em up good fast acting frappe! Too busy to go to the clerics, need a quick and simple fix for a quick and simple problem, or just plain having a bad day? Try a dose of the Fast Acting Fix em up! Makes all your trouble seem so far away, it's like they belong to yesterday! (10)
[/sblock]

And I'll have 4 gp, 12 sp and 22 cp left in my pocket.


Currently carrying:

bedroll 5lb
blanket 3lb
chalk
fishhook
flint&steel
Belt pouch .5lb
rations (2) 2lb
Sack 1lb
waterskin 4lb
spell pouch 2lb
Alchemist fire 1lb
antitoxen
tanglefoot 4lb
tindertwig (4)
Hvy Mace 8lb
Dagger 1lb
Light xbow 4lb
10 bolts 1lb
sling
10 bullets 5lb

41.5 lbs

Monsters to be Summoned:

CELESTIAL CREATURE

[sblock]
Celestial creatures dwell on the upper planes, the realms of good, although they resemble beings found on the Material Plane. They are more regal and more beautiful than their earthly counterparts.

Celestial creatures often come in metallic colors (usually silver, gold, or platinum). They can be mistaken for half-celestials, more powerful creatures that are created when a celestial mates with a non-celestial creature.

Alignment: Always good (any).
[/sblock]


BADGER
[sblock]
Small Animal

Hit Dice:
1d8+2 (6 hp)

Initiative:
+3

Speed:
30 ft. (6 squares), burrow 10 ft.

Armor Class:
15 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +1 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 12

Base Attack/Grapple:
+0/–5

Attack:
Claw +4 melee (1d2–1)

Full Attack:
2 claws +4 melee (1d2–1) and bite –1 melee (1d3–1)

Space/Reach:
5 ft./5 ft.

Special Attacks:
Rage
Smite Evil (Su): Once per day can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its HD (maximum of +20) against an evil foe.

Special Qualities:
Low-light vision
Scent
Darkvision out to 60 feet 
Resistance to Acid, Cold, Electricity 5
Spell Resistance 6

Saves:
Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +1

Abilities:
Str 8, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6

Skills:
Escape Artist +7, Listen +3, Spot +3

Feats:
TrackB, Weapon Finesse

Environment:
Temperate forests

The badger is a furry animal with a squat, powerful body. Its strong forelimbs are armed with long claws for digging. An adult badger is 2 to 3 feet long and weighs 25 to 35 pounds.

Combat

Badgers attack with their sharp claws and teeth.

Rage (Ex): A badger that takes damage in combat flies into a berserk rage on its next turn, clawing and biting madly until either it or its opponent is dead. It gains +4 to Strength, +4 to Constitution, and –2 to Armor Class. The creature cannot end its rage voluntarily.

Skills: A badger has a +4 racial bonus on Escape Artist checks.
[/sblock]

DOG
[sblock]
Small Animal

Hit Dice:
1d8+2 (6 hp)

Initiative:
+3

Speed:
40 ft. (8 squares)

Armor Class:
15 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +1 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 12

Base Attack/Grapple:
+0/–3

Attack:
Bite +2 melee (1d4+1)

Full Attack:
Bite +2 melee (1d4+1)

Space/Reach:
5 ft./5 ft.

Special Attacks:
Smite Evil (Su): Once per day can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its HD (maximum of +20) against an evil foe.

Special Qualities:
Low-light vision
scent
darkvision out to 60 feet
Resistance to Acid, Cold, Electricity 5
Spell Resistance 6

Saves:
Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +1

Abilities:
Str 13, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6

Skills:
Jump +7, Listen +5, Spot +5, Survival +1*

Feats:
Alertness, TrackB

Environment:
Temperate plains

Skills: Dogs have a +4 racial bonus on Jump checks. *Dogs have a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent.
[/sblock]





HAWK
[sblock]
Tiny Animal

Hit Dice:
1d8 (4 hp)

Initiative:
+3

Speed:
10 ft. (2 squares), fly 60 ft. (average)

Armor Class:
17 (+2 size, +3 Dex, +2 natural), touch 15, flat-footed 14

Base Attack/Grapple:
+0/–10

Attack:
Talons +5 melee (1d4–2)

Full Attack:
Talons +5 melee (1d4–2)

Space/Reach:
2-1/2 ft./0 ft.

Special Attacks:
Smite Evil (Su): Once per day can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its HD (maximum of +20) against an evil foe.

Special Qualities:
Low-light vision
Darkvision out to 60 feet
Resistance to Acid, Cold, Electricity 5
Spell Resistance 6

Saves:
Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +2

Abilities:
Str 6, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6

Skills:
Listen +2, Spot +14

Feats:
Weapon Finesse

Environment:
Temperate forests

These creatures are similar to eagles but slightly smaller: 1 to 2 feet long, with wingspans of 6 feet or less.

Combat

Hawks combine both talons into a single attack.

Skills: Hawks have a +8 racial bonus on Spot checks.
[/sblock]

OWL
[sblock]
Tiny Animal

Hit Dice:
1d8 (4 hp)

Initiative:
+3

Speed:
10 ft. (2 squares), fly 40 ft. (average)

Armor Class:
17 (+2 size, +3 Dex, +2 natural), touch 15, flat-footed 14

Base Attack/Grapple:
+0/–11

Attack:
Talons +5 melee (1d4–3)

Full Attack:
Talons +5 melee (1d4–3)

Space/Reach:
2-1/2 ft./0 ft.

Special Attacks:
Smite Evil (Su): Once per day can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its HD (maximum of +20) against an evil foe.

Special Qualities:
Low-light vision
Darkvision out to 60 feet
Resistance to Acid, Cold, Electricity 5
Spell Resistance 6

Saves:
Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +2

Abilities:
Str 4, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 4

Skills:
Listen +14, Move Silently +17, Spot +6*

Feats:
Weapon Finesse

Environment:
Temperate forests


The statistics presented here describe nocturnal birds of prey from 1 to 2 feet long, with wingspans up to 6 feet. They combine both talons into a single attack.

Combat

Owls swoop quietly down onto prey, attacking with their powerful talons.

Skills: Owls have a +8 racial bonus on Listen checks and a +14 racial bonus on Move Silently checks. *They have a +8 racial bonus on Spot checks in areas of shadowy illumination.
[/sblock]


GIANT FIRE BEETLE
[sblock]
Small Vermin

Hit Dice:
1d8 (4 hp)

Initiative:
+0

Speed:
30 ft. (6 squares)

Armor Class:
16 (+1 size, +5 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 16

Base Attack/Grapple:
+0/–4

Attack:
Bite +1 melee (2d4)

Full Attack:
Bite +1 melee (2d4)

Space/Reach:
5 ft./5 ft.

Special Attacks:
Smite Evil (Su): Once per day can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its HD (maximum of +20) against an evil foe.

Special Qualities:
Darkvision 60 ft
Vermin traits
Resistance to Acid, Cold, Electricity 5
Spell Resistance 6

Saves:
Fort +2, Ref +0, Will +0

Abilities:
Str 10, Dex 11, Con 11, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 7


These luminous nocturnal insects are prized by miners and adventurers. They have two glands, one above each eye, that produce a red glow. The glands’ luminosity persists for 1d6 days after removal from the beetle, illuminating a roughly circular area with a 10-foot radius. Giant fire beetles are about 2 feet long.
[/sblock]



These are all the creatures I think I'm likely to summon given the terrain, I put in sblocks to neaten it up for easier reference. If possible, I'm always going to be summoning celestial versions, not fiendish; that's why I included just the celestial template


-- Build Notes --
Level 1 [12 CP build]
bab: 1 [2]
base saves: + 2 Will +1 Fort +1 reflex [3]
skill points: 4 + 1 Hum +2 Int + 4 [2] = 11*4 = 44
feats: light ap [auto], simple wp [auto], entry: Brew Potion [human].
entry class: Cast spells as 1st level Sorcerer [5]

Level 2 [8 CP build]
bab: 0.75 [1]
bases saves: +1 Will + 1 Fort [1]
skills points: 4 [auto] + 2 Int + 1 Human + 4 [2] = 7
feats: progression class: Sorcerer spellcasting [4]


----------



## doghead (Apr 19, 2005)

*Debriefing*

I don't know about you, but I'm glad thats over. As always, if you have any questions or suggestions, feel free to post them up. Thought about style are also welcome.

Some thoughts ...

*1) Crunch* - Could you post up the relevent crunch when making an attack, skill check etc. Please note and add in any approapriate situation mods. If you're not sure, post 'em up and I'll workout what's what.

*2) Maerdwyn* - you're missing your Str bonus to damage on your sling.

*3) DrZ* - how does level 2 sound? (you're still Level 1 in the rogues gallery).

*4) Medium armour* - I've never really liked the loss of Speed due to medium armour. I would prefer to see it reduce your run rate from 4x to 3x base speed. Heavy armour still reduces your Speed by one catagory.

*5) Spears and stuff* - How long is the human arm? About 4 feet I would say. Which means that pulling anything longer than 4 feet over your shoulder becomes quite an involved action. You can carry a second spear in your shield hand (as the orcs did), but I have my doubts about being able to carry a spear or javlin in a quiver on the back. Am I missing something? True, but not worth worrying about?

*6) Initiative* - A couple of characters rolled 20+ for their initiative. I was tempted to give them an extra action (move or std) at (Initiative - 20). Not a good idea? Should your bab be added to your initiative roll? Experienced characters will generally act faster.

*7) Worgs* - Whooh! I was rather hoping Nate would fail his willpower save. The worg wouldn't have done anything _too_ bad .. gnaw on a limb or something.

*8) khavren* - I'm not sure if I mentioned this, but just in case, good work with the CP Build stuff. I haven't had a chance to go over everything closely, but it looks spot on at first glance. A couple of things:

Could you edit the skills to look like this:

* Move Silently +5 -- [6 ranks, +1 dex, +2 feat, -3 acp]
* Hide +5 ----------- [6 ranks, +1 dex, +2 feat, -3 acp]
* P(scirmisher) +3 -- [4 ranks, -1 wis]

Have the animal stats been coverted to the celestial template? If you could do that, I'll do the gng conversion for you. 

If you could also get everything on one post, then clean out the other posts (OK, so I'm a bit weird like that. I like to keep threads neat.) I'd be a happy camper. I usually make my own character sheet up for all the pc's, so I can fill in any missing stuff at that time and give you a copy. Once everything is confirmed, I'll give you the go ahead for posting it to the rg thread.

*9) Seonaid* - Welcome back.

*10) Shields* - Buckler +1 Defense, Light shield +2 defense, Heavy Shield +3 defense?


----------



## Maerdwyn (Apr 19, 2005)

I liked the pacing of the combat, though I'll be glad when the whole party is together and un-sblocked  

I also like the way a lot of the stuff (initiative, etc) is handled behind the screen. 

I wouldn't give a bonus for a flat 20+ on init, but maybe we could experiment with something similar to the critical hit system: If you exceed your opponent's initiative by a given amount, you get a additional action ( exceed by 10+, you get a move action, 15+ you get an additional standard action) Just off the top of my head - not totally convinced a bonus like this is necessary

I don't think bab should be tied directly to initiative. Yes, more experienced characters are going to act faster, but acting faster isn't always about swinging a sword. Fighter types under that system would always get the jump on wizards or stealthy types. Experienced character of any sort could always spend points on improved init (using existing rules), or you could introduce point based init - a parallel to the bab progression, for example, where chracters get some small increase in their init every level, but you can spend points to make it go up faster. 

Fixed the sling damage, and fixed the weight I was carrying, I think (I had four days rations only weighing 1 lb before. I ate or tossed two days of rations and increased the weight to 2 lbs. 

For the spear, I think of short spears as about the same length as long bows, which I pictured as able to be strapped to characters' backs but may be not. If it's a problem, no sweat, and I'll figure out another way of keeping him armed - probably keep a spear in the shield hand and keep the sling ready instead of the spear.


----------



## Seonaid (Apr 19, 2005)

Sorry 'bout not posting stats. I plumb forgot.

As for your questions, I kind of agreed with you, doghead, on init, but after reading Maerdwyn's post, I agree with him. Maybe a happy medium? I don't know enough about crunch to really have an informed opinion. 

I agree about pacing and behind-the-screen stuff. It makes the game much more fun.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 19, 2005)

I'm soooo off topic but I wanted to say hi to a familiar face...  err. Name. 

Welcome back Seonaid!  

Anyhow its good to see you and ever better to hav eyou back on the boards.


----------



## DrZombie (Apr 19, 2005)

Hi doghead,

I'll update Nate asap, since it's only the fourth time you've asked  .

About init : an extra action would be cool, I think.

About the javalins : they're lighter and shorter than spears, I'd say you could carry quite a few in an overlarge quiver, or hold a few in your shield hand.

As for the crunch : the more it stays hidden, the more fun it is for us.

Cheers,

Maarten


----------



## khavren (Apr 20, 2005)

123


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 20, 2005)

khavren said:
			
		

> I can't figure out how to delete my posts!




You can't, only a moderator can delete posts.  If you give me a link to the thread and give me the post number I can delete it for you.

V/R
BS
PbP Mod


----------



## khavren (Apr 20, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> You can't, only a moderator can delete posts. If you give me a link to the thread and give me the post number I can delete it for you.
> 
> V/R
> BS
> PbP Mod




It's actually this thread, Doghead asked me to remove my extranous ones once I got all my info in one post.

These are the superflous posts 179, 180, 183, 184


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 20, 2005)

khavren said:
			
		

> These are the superflous posts 179, 180, 183, 184




Done.


----------



## doghead (Apr 20, 2005)

Hey khavren

My fault, I wasn't very clear. I meant just delete the content. But deleting the posts is better. 

Thanks Brother Shatterstone, I'll have a list of posts I would like deleted by next week. Should only be a couple of hundred.

th  td


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 20, 2005)

doghead said:
			
		

> Thanks Brother Shatterstone, I'll have a list of posts I would like deleted by next week. Should only be a couple of hundred.




IC sure...  OOC Not likely McGee.


----------



## doghead (Apr 21, 2005)

Worth a try. Thought I might be able to slip a few of DrZ's in there as well.


----------



## Seonaid (Apr 21, 2005)

Thanks, BS! It's good to BE back!  And, it's nice of you to clean up the thread for us.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 21, 2005)

Seonaid said:
			
		

> Thanks, BS! It's good to BE back!  And, it's nice of you to clean up the thread for us.



Your welcome, and as I said you make the board a better place so hopefully we'll get a chance to game together again.


----------



## khavren (Apr 21, 2005)

doghead said:
			
		

> *8) khavren* - I'm not sure if I mentioned this, but just in case, good work with the CP Build stuff. I haven't had a chance to go over everything closely, but it looks spot on at first glance. A couple of things:
> 
> Could you edit the skills to look like this:
> 
> ...




Done


----------



## doghead (Apr 22, 2005)

Thanks for your feedback on the ideas. I've a couple more I'm going to float by you. Some of them are fairly speculative and I probably wouldn't introduce them in this game, but I get good feedback from you guys, so I'm going to try picking your brains if you'll let me.

khavren: cool. I'll get onto the character on the weekend. Thanks for all your good work.


----------



## DrZombie (Apr 22, 2005)

doghead said:
			
		

> Worth a try. Thought I might be able to slip a few of DrZ's in there as well.




Thanks Doghead, I can't say how proud this makes me feel.


----------



## Seonaid (Apr 22, 2005)

Pick away, doghead!


----------



## doghead (Apr 25, 2005)

khavren: no problem here. There are a few weights and stuff to be added but the basics are all there. Nice work.

You have 4 more skill points to spend. You might also want to look into synergies. I've added your Bluff synergy bonus to Diplomacy, there may be others.

You may want to consider some form of armour (magical or otherwise). With your Defense and Soak scores, if you get hit, its going to hurt. In gng, wounds bring with them penalties to rolls (Lightly Wounded - no effect, Moderately Wounded -2, Seriously Wounded -2, In A World of Hurt (Disabled) -4.)

BRB refers to your Base Reflex Bonus. You can use either this or your BAB for you Defense Bonus, whichever is higher.

OK. I think thats it.

[sblock]Fenix
Human Male Level 2
Concept: Wandering alchemist/snake oil salesman - A traveling salesman type who makes potions and brews, some that actually work, some that rely on sugar, alchol and a fast line of patter.

Initiative: +2 .......[+2 dex, +0 feat]
Speed: 30 ft. ........[base 30 ft., light load, no armour]
Defense: +3 ..........[+1 bab, +2 dex, +0 size]
Soak: +1 .............[+1 Con, +0 size]

BAB: +1.75
* melee +2 Hvy Mace (1d8+1, 10/+0)
* melee +2 Dagger (1d4+1, 8/+0)
* range +3 Sling (1d4+0, 10/+0, 50 ft.)
* range +3 Lgt x-bow (1d8+0, 8/+0, 80ft.)

Full Attack: xxx
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: xxx
Special Qualities: xxx

Saves: 
- Fortitude +3 ......[base 2, +1 con], 
- Reflex +3 .........[base 1, +2 dex], 
- Will +1 ...........[base 3, -2 wis].

Abilities: Str 12, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 7, Cha 16

Skills: [51 of 55 skill points]
- Appraise +4 ............[2 ranks, +2 int]
- Bluff +7 ...............[5 ranks, +2 int]
- Concentration +2 .......[1 ranks, +1 con]
- Craft (alchemy) +7 .....[5 ranks, +2 int]
- Diplomacy +10 ..........[5 ranks, +3 chr, +2 syn]
- Disguise +4 ............[1 ranks, +3 chr]
- Escape Artist +3 .......[1 ranks, +2 dex]
- Gather Information +4 ..[1 ranks, +3 chr]
- Handle Animal +4 .......[1 ranks, +3 chr]
- Hide +3 ................[1 ranks, +2 dex]
- Intimidate +6 ..........[3 ranks, +3 chr]
- Move silent +3 .........[1 ranks, +2 dex]
- Open lock +3 ...........[1 ranks, +2 dex]
- Perform (oratary) +8 ...[5 ranks, +3 chr]
- Ride +3 ................[1 ranks, +2 dex]
- Search +3 ..............[1 ranks, +2 int]
- Sense motive +3 ........[5 ranks, -2 wis]
- Sleight of Hand +7 .....[5 ranks, +2 dex]
- Spellcraft +5 ..........[3 ranks, +2 int]
- Spot -1 ................[1 ranks, -2 wis]
- Tumble +3 ..............[1 ranks, +2 dex]
- Surivival -1 ...........[1 ranks, -2 wis]

Feats: Brew Potion, Spellcasting (sorcerer level 1 & 2]

Languages: Common, (int bonus lang), (int bonus language)

Spells:
Spells per Day: 6/5
Spells Known 0th:
- Mage Hand
- Detect Magic
- Read Magic
- Mending
- Prestidigitation
Spells Known 1st:
- Summon Monster 1
- Magic Missle

Equipment:
Worn/Carried:
- Hvy Mace .........(08.0 lb)
- Dagger ...........(01.0 lb)
- Light xbow .......(04.0 lb)
- - 10 bolts .......(01.0 lb)
- Sling ............(---- lb)
- - 10 bullets .....(05.0 lb)
- xxx ..............(xx.x lb.)
- xxx ..............(xx.x lb.)

In Sack ............(01.0 lb)
- bedroll ..........(05.0 lb)
- blanket ..........(03.0 lb)
- Rations (2) ......(02.0 lb)
- Tanglefoot .......(04.0 lb)
- Alchemist fire ...(01.0 lb)
- waterskin ........(04.0 lb)
- xxx ..............(xx.x lb)

In Pouch ...........(00.5 lb)
- chalk ............(---- lb)
- fishhook .........(---- lb)
- flint&steel ......(---- lb)
- antitoxen ........(---- lb)
- tindertwig (4) ...(---- lb)
- 4gp, 12sp, 22cp ..(XX.X lb)
- xxx ..............(xx.x lb)

Spell pouch ........(02.0 lb)

Total Carried ......(41.5 lb)

On Mount:
- xxx ..............(xx.x lb)
- xxx ..............(xx.x lb)

Appearance:

Height: 5'7"
Weight: 173 lbs
Eyes: Blue
Hair: Brown
Age: 26

Fenix is an average looking human, 5' 7", he is neither very tall nor short and at 150 pounds not too thin or heavy. His brown hair and eyes do nothing else to establish him, but he has a smooth rolling deep voice, and a gleaming white smile which he uses to great effect when selling his wares.

Personality: 

*Full write up coming*

Backstory: 

*Full write up coming*


Extra special potions:
Fenix's fine extra special youth restorative (men) - Garantueed to put more hair on your head and more juice in your johnson! (5)
Fenix's felicitating female fancy facial masq (women) - Smooth it on every night and watch the wrinkles fade away! That tingling senasation means it's working! Can also be used to dye hair and clothing! (7)
Fenix's filtered functional fix em up good fast acting frappe! - Too busy to go to the clerics, need a quick and simple fix for a quick and simple problem, or just plain having a bad day? Try a dose of the Fast Acting Fix em up! Makes all your trouble seem so far away, it's like they belong to yesterday! (10)


-- CELESTIAL CREATURES --

Celestial creatures dwell on the upper planes, the realms of good, although they resemble beings found on the Material Plane. They are more regal and more beautiful than their earthly counterparts.

Celestial creatures often come in metallic colors (usually silver, gold, or platinum). They can be mistaken for half-celestials, more powerful creatures that are created when a celestial mates with a non-celestial creature.

Alignment: Always good (any).

-- BADGER --
Small Animal 
Initiative: +3
Speed: 30 ft., burrow 10 ft. 
Defense: +6 (+2 brb, +1 size, +3 dex)
Soak: +3 (+1 natural, +2 con) 
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/–5 
Attack: Claw +4 melee (1d2–5) 
Full Attack: 2 claws +4 melee (1d2–5) and bite –1 melee (1d3–5)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Rage (Ex): A badger that takes damage in combat flies into a berserk rage on its next turn, clawing and biting madly until either it or its opponent is dead. It gains +4 to Strength, +4 to Constitution, and –2 to Armor Class. The creature cannot end its rage voluntarily.; Smite Evil (Su): Once per day can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its HD (maximum of +20) against an evil foe.
Special Qualities: Low-light vision; Scent; Darkvision out to 60 feet; Resistance to Acid, Cold, Electricity 5; Spell Resistance 6
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +1
Abilities: Str 8, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Escape Artist +7, Listen +3, Spot +3
Feats: TrackB, Weapon Finesse
Environment:

Description: The badger is a furry animal with a squat, powerful body. Its strong forelimbs are armed with long claws for digging. An adult badger is 2 to 3 feet long and weighs 25 to 35 pounds.
Combat: Badgers attack with their sharp claws and teeth.
Skills: A badger has a +4 racial bonus on Escape Artist checks.


-- DOG --
Small Animal
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Defense: +4 (+1 size, +3 Dex), touch 14, flat-footed 12
Soak 3 (+1 natural, +2 con)
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/–3
Attack: Bite +2 melee (1d4-3)
Full Attack: Bite +2 melee (1d4-3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Smite Evil (Su): Once per day can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its HD (maximum of +20) against an evil foe.
Special Qualities: Low-light vision; scent; darkvision out to 60 feet; Resistance to Acid, Cold, Electricity 5; Spell Resistance 6
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +1
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Jump +7, Listen +5, Spot +5, Survival +1*
Feats: Alertness, TrackB
Environment:

Skills: Dogs have a +4 racial bonus on Jump checks. *Dogs have a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent.


-- HAWK --
Tiny Animal
Initiative: +3
Speed: 10 ft. (2 squares), fly 60 ft. (average)
Armor Class: 17 (+2 size, +3 Dex), touch 15, flat-footed 14
Soak +0 (+2 natural, -8 size)
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/–10
Attack: Talons +5 melee (1d4–10)
Full Attack: Talons +5 melee (1d4–10)
Space/Reach: 2-1/2 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Smite Evil (Su): Once per day can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its HD (maximum of +20) against an evil foe.
Special Qualities: Low-light vision; Darkvision out to 60 feet; Resistance to Acid, Cold, Electricity 5; Spell Resistance 6
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +2
Abilities: Str 6, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6
Skills: Listen +2, Spot +14
Feats: Weapon Finesse
Environment: Temperate forests

Description: These creatures are similar to eagles but slightly smaller: 1 to 2 feet long, with wingspans of 6 feet or less.
Combat: Hawks combine both talons into a single attack.
Skills: Hawks have a +8 racial bonus on Spot checks.


-- OWL --
Tiny Animal
Initiative: +3
Speed: 10 ft. (2 squares), fly 40 ft. (average)
Defense: 15 (+2 size, +3 Dex), touch 15, flat-footed 14
Soak: 0 (+2 natural, -8 size)
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/–11
Attack: Talons +5 melee (1d4–3)
Full Attack: Talons +5 melee (1d4–3)
Space/Reach: 2-1/2 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Smite Evil (Su): Once per day can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its HD (maximum of +20) against an evil foe.
Special Qualities: Low-light vision; Darkvision out to 60 feet; Resistance to Acid, Cold, Electricity 5; Spell Resistance 6
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +2
Abilities: Str 4, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 4
Skills: Listen +14, Move Silently +17, Spot +6*
Feats: Weapon Finesse
Environment: Temperate forests

Description: The statistics presented here describe nocturnal birds of prey from 1 to 2 feet long, with wingspans up to 6 feet. They combine both talons into a single attack.
Combat: Owls swoop quietly down onto prey, attacking with their powerful talons.
Skills: Owls have a +8 racial bonus on Listen checks and a +14 racial bonus on Move Silently checks. *They have a +8 racial bonus on Spot checks in areas of shadowy illumination.

-- Build Notes --

-- Level 1 [12 CP build] --
bab: 0.5 [auto] + 0.5 [2]
base saves: +2 Will, +1 Fort, +1 Reflex [3]
skill points: 4 [auto] +2 [int] +1 [human] +4 [2] = 11*4 = 44
feats: light ap [auto], simple wp [auto], entry: Brew Potion [human], entry class: Cast spells as 1st level Sorcerer [5]

-- Level 2 [8 CP build] --
bab: 0.5 [auto] + 0.25 [1]
bases saves: +1 Will [auto], +1 Fort [1]
skills points: 4 [auto] +2 [int] +1 [human] +4 [2] = 11 (+4)
feats: progression class: Sorcerer spellcasting 2 [4]

-- Notes --

Complete equipment list 

*khavren, at this point we can leave this part. I haven't been over it all, but is this all ment to be on the wagon?*[/sblock]


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## doghead (Apr 28, 2005)

*Some Thoughts Part II*

*Initiative* Maerdwyn makes some good points, especially with the bab. Fighter types would always get the jump on non-fighter types. I'll probably leave it for now, or just slip it in when it seems appropriate.

*Shields* No one seems to object, so: +1 Defense for Bucklers, +2 for Light Shields and +3 for Heavy Shields.

*Armour* No one seems to object, so: Medium armour does not reduce you base speed, but still does reduce your run rate to x3. Other mods are unchanged.

*Skills* I'm not really planning on introducing this one, but have been thinking over it for a while. I saw an Epic game and thought that the skill bonuses were mental. (Actually, everything was mental.) I wondered about the idea of using the appropriate attribute as the skill rank cap. But it seems a little sudden. Get to the cap, and learn no more. So then I wondered about using an incremental skill rank buy. 1 point for rank 1, 2 points for rank 2. 3 points for rank 3. So it would cost 6 points to get rank 3, or 16 points to get rank 5.

I like characters to be able to diversify into the more unusual skills, so obviously a higher auto allotment of points each level would be needed. Your Int score comes to mind as one option. [Int 10*4 = 40.] At 10 points for 4 ranks, you could have 4 maxed skills at first level without much difficulty.

You should still be able to get a good range, but getting good (Bluff 5 ranks, Diplomacy 5 ranks for the +2 synergy bonus needs 32 skill points) is going to require dedication.

*BAB* OK. Gotta ask. Would it work with bab? Getting +1 BAB requires 1 CP. Improving to +2 BAB requires 2 CP. So achieving a +3 BAB would require 6 CP in total. With an 8CP build, you could get to a max of +8 BAB, requiring 36 CP in total. I don't see why there would be a need for a BAB increase/level cap with this system. Got 12 CP? Get +4 BAB! at first level (and precious little else). There would be no automatic BAB increase per level.


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## Seonaid (Apr 29, 2005)

::rubs head tiredly:: It's been too long of a week, and I'd like to revisit this, but I had one comment.

For skills, would all skill points come from Int? I always say this because it's always true and reflects anything I might say, but would it work to have skill points be based on the appropriate attribute? So, you get x amount for Int-based skills, with x being calculated from your Int, y amount for Str-based skills, with y being calculated from your Str, etc. I don't know if that's balanced at all or makes any sense, but that's my sleep-deprived thought for now. I'll look more closely at this tomorrow.


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## khavren (Apr 29, 2005)

doghead said:
			
		

> khavren: no problem here. There are a few weights and stuff to be added but the basics are all there. Nice work.
> 
> You have 4 more skill points to spend. You might also want to look into synergies. I've added your Bluff synergy bonus to Diplomacy, there may be others.
> 
> ...




If I could have afforded magic armor, I definitly would have gotten it. As it is currently, I might be stripping these orcs of their armor just to have something. Originally I didn't get anything to avoid spell failure problems, and I hoped to just stay far back from trouble and let my magic minions do the work for me.  

I'll check over for synergies and update as I find them, the extra 4 I'll just split into spot and survival. 

Everything from the complete gear list that I'm not carrying is locked up in the wagon, I'm assuming the mules are stabled somewhere as well. 

Can you recomend two languages to cover my bonus language slots, or can I learn them in game as we encounter new groups?


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## khavren (Apr 29, 2005)

For skills, how about your int bonus plus the key attribute bonus is how far you can go with 1 per 1 buying and after that it starts doubling. for example, +3 int bonus and a +2 str bonus, it's easy for you to learn to swim well, so you can buy 5 ranks without a problem, but past that you have to pay double, so the 6th rank would cost 2, then 4, etc. And for someone who is weaker, it's harder for them to learn the skill, so the double cost kicks in sooner.


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## Maerdwyn (Apr 29, 2005)

I've typed a response seveal time, and always seemed to lose it (grrr). Despite the length, this is just brainstorming - feel free to discard it wholesale . 

Anyway, my thoughts were along the same lines as Seonaid's in that I like the idea of tying skill points, not just skills to abilities:
-1 skill point per rank you are trying to achieve
-Skill points have to come from the ability tied to the skill. Alternatively, you can spend points from other abilities at half value.
-At first level, you get 1 skill point for every ability point you have. 
-At each level after 1st, you gain skill points from one ability of you choice, plus 4 general points that can be spent anywhere. 

So if you had Fredar's ability array, you could start with:
*[sblock]*
*Abilities:* Str 15, Dex 17, Con 11, Int 10, Wis 7, Cha 16.
STR 15, Granting 15 skill points at 1st level.  14 spent on STR skills, 1 left over):
Climb 4 (1+2+3+4=10 points)
Jump 2 (1+2=3 points)
Swim 1 (1 point)

DEX (17 skill points, all spent):
Hide 4 (1+2+3+4=10 points)
Tumble 3 (1+2+3=6 points)
Sleight of hand 1 (1 point)


CON (11 skill points.  10 spent on CON skill, 1 left over):
Concentration 4 (10 points)


INT (10 skill points, all spent on INT skills)
Search 3 (6 points)
Disable Device 2 (3 points)
Appraise 1 (1 point)

WIS (7 skill points, all spent on WIS skills)
Spot 3 (6 points)
Listen 1 (1 point)

CHA (17 skill points, all spent on CHA skills.  1 left over STR point + 1 left over CON point=one more CHA skill point)
Perform (Sing) 4 (10 points)
Bluff 3 (6 points)
Diplomacy 1 (using the points left over in STR and CON)
[/sblock]

At second level, he would get 16 skill points from his CHA score (raising Perform to 5, Bluff to 4, Diplomacy to 4, Perform (lute) to 1 and Gather Information to 1) and 4 general points (raising his Tumble to 4). When he above 5th level, he become unable to max out even two of his CHA based skills - he need to really specialize form that point on in order to kep advancing. Or he can broaden his skills and remain versatile but not accomplished.

*************
The other idea (and this is separate from the above stuff) I was batting around was using general skills (Like "Athletics") that gets paired with more specific skills (Swim and Climb), where you get two modifiers to your roll - your general aptitude for the type of activity you are attempting, plus the roll for your training in the particular facet of the activity. 

To become more athletic in general, is very difficult (so this would use the 1+2+3 skill points to get to rank 3 model), but once you are athletic, being trained further in swimming is easier(one point per rank in the specific skill). You can only have as many ranks in the specific skill as you have in the general one.

So getting Athletic 4 (Swim 4, Climb 4) would cost: 1+2+3+4+4+4=18 skill points (4 ranks in a specific skill seems to be about where it become more expensive than the original system).  Under this system, I would use the normal, INT based skill points, maybe increased just a little if desired.

This system encourages breadth, but not acheivement - the general skills are used as the modifier in "untrained" situations, so you get a bang for your skill points by advancing them. Eventually though, it would be too expensive to keep advancing your general apptitudes for Athletics or Academics or Agility.

Example:[sblock]

Fredar started off play with 28 skill points, and put ranks into Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Move Silently, Perform(singing), Sleight of hand, and Tumble.

Under the propose system  Those skills might be grouped as follows(along with how Fredar might have spent his skill points on them) :

General Skill: 
....Specialty
....Specialty

Persuasion 2 (2 ranks of Persuasion costs 1+2=3 skill points):
....Bluff 2 (2 ranks of the Persuasion specialty Bluff costs 2 skill points)
....Diplomacy 1
....Intimidate 1

Reconnaissance 1 (1 point)
....Gather Information 1 (1 point)
....Research 0

Sneak: 2 (3 skill points)
....Hide 2 (2 points)
....Move Sliently 1 (1 points)

Musician: 3 (6 skill points)
....Singing 3 (3 skill points)
....Oratory
....Woodwinds

Agility: 2 (3 skill points)
....Climb
....Tumbling

[/sblock]
To make a skill check, your roll=d20+General skill rank+specific skill rank+ability modifier

His skills are slightly higher under this system than they were originally, but only at the first could levels.  

Fredar's Perform(signing) has a total bonus of +9 at first level, compares to a total bonus of +7 under the original system.  At second level, if he wants to go to +10, however, it will cost him all four of his skill points (since his general skill has to be improved before the specific one, and he can't go beyond that without saving up skill points or spending CP on them

Now that I go through this with an example, it may provide a little too much in the way of breadth of skills, but it was an idea


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## Seonaid (Apr 30, 2005)

I'm not sure I understand Maerdwyn's skill point array in the spoiler. Where do the alloted number of skill points come from? The idea seems good, but I'm not sure I understand the mechanics.

As for the general skills, how would the first roll affect the second? Would a low roll on the general skill mean that any roll on the specific would fail? How would the two combine or interact? I'm not sure I like that system as well, though I am not sure how it would work.

--Seonaid, feelin' dumb


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## Maerdwyn (Apr 30, 2005)

No Seonaid, that was Maerdwyn being unclear, not Seonaid being dumb 

I had things written out a lot clearer and lost the post twice before just slapping it down that last time. I'm editing that post now for clarity.

edit: okay, some example added.  doghead, I'm done cluttering your thread for a while


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## doghead (Apr 30, 2005)

*Skills* Wow. Some great stuff here. Thanks. Initially I was inclined to stick with just using intelligence for a number of reasons.

_metagame I_ Intelligence is not really used for anything else but skill points. If you have a character with little use for (Int) skills, then Intelligence becomes a very easy dump stat.

_metagame II_ I wanted to keep the bookkeeping to a minimum.

_as model of reality*_ In my experience, skill development is not so much a function of natural ability or talent, but the ability to evaluate performance and find ways to improve. Natural ability and talent are already accounted for by the stat bonus and feats respectively. On the other hand, a character's self analysis and development ability is probably best reflected by their Intelligence (with wisdom a possible alternative, although wisdom is perhaps a better reflection of our willingness to turn a light on our own limitations).

* although given the complexity of what we are trying to model with the system, any workable solution is going to be, at best, at odds with reality in may ways.

The idea of general skills and speciallisations also has appeal. Another game I play (Dominion System) uses something similar. The general skills give you the coverage, and the specialisations give you the expertise in areas of particular interest. It also means that a well educated character (with 4-5 ranks in Knowledge (General) for example) would have some chance of knowing about something, even if they haven't specifically studied it. But I wonder if the benefits outweight the disadvantages of an increase in rewriting of the rules, and the increased difficulty of adapting from regular dnd. But I'm not really sure. It would help to see how this would look when put together.

Just for something to compare, I drew up a Level 10 character last night. I had the Captain Commander (Lisa's father) in mind as I did it. After building the first 3 levels, I wondered if I could do a quick and dirty version. This is what I came up with.[bq]Level 10 [12/8 Build] - 84 CP in total.
21 CP: BAB +6
18 CP: Saves Fort +3 [6], Ref +3 [6], Will +3 [6].
04 CP: Skills (level 1) 12 [int] +8 [4] = 20*4 = 80 skill points.
04 CP: Skills (level 2, 3) 12 [int] +4 [2] = 16*2 = 32 skill points.
14 CP: Skills (level 4-10) 13 [int] +4 [2] = 17*7 = 119 skill points.
23 CP: Feats - 5 x general entry [4], 1 x general progression [3].

231 skill points allows for 2 x 10 ranks (110 skillpoints), 8 x 5 ranks (120 points), 1 x 1 rank.[/bq]


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## DrZombie (May 4, 2005)

I'll leave the skill point tinkering to you guys, if you don't mind. This is giving me a slight headache  .

Now, where did i put the notes for nate's second level...


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## DrZombie (May 4, 2005)

Doghead : 
I've found and edited the lvl 2 build of Nate. It's on page 1 of this thread. One question : the power attack feat is pretty useless in this system. the only reasen I took it is to be able to take "cleave" next level. Is that OK with you?


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## doghead (May 18, 2005)

khavren: You can get out of your armour (hide) no problem. The rules for getting in and out of armour can be found  here. I'd also be inclined to say that if you spend double the normal casting time (free action to std action, std action to full action etc.), you can reduce the spell failure chance by 10%. Given the unseamly haste with which everything happens in dnd (the modern world has nothing on the world of dnd for hustle!), this seems reasonable. Thoughts anyone?

The rings will need some cleaning and attention by a smith I think before the inscription becomes more readable.

DrZ: Seems a bit harsh to have to take a feat of no value just to get another feat. Someone mentioned 1:1.5 or 1:2 {to hit penalty}:{damage bonus} exchange. But this would make things rather more deadly than they already are. *ogres with power attack .. yum.* 1:1.5? 1:2? Something else entirely? Thoughts?

BTW, unless there is an overwhelming outpouring of popular demand to do so, I wasn't planning on changing the skill point system in this game. I was just messing around with ideas and using you as my sounding board.

While we are at it ...

(Feat) Shield Focus: Add +1 shield bonus to you Defense when using a shield. Stacks with the normal shield bonus. Prereq: AP (Shield).

(Feat) Shield Mastery: You may use your shield as a weapon during melee. (basically TWF, but with a shield as the off hand weapon. Uses the same penalties.) If the basic shield bonus (+1 buckler, +2 light, +3 heavy) is less than or equal to your Str bonus, you treat the shield as a light weapon for determining the penalties. Although, come to think of it, that is not going to work with smaller/larger size creatures. Hummm.


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## DrZombie (May 18, 2005)

Yeah, well, now that I'm thinking of it, not only does power attack makes little sense, the cleave feat by itself makes little sense using the GnG system. Chances of dropping someone with a single stroke are small. Maybe I should just give up on the whole thing and look for something else. Armor prof (med) would be a bit of a munchkinesque move, I'll keep that untill the next level. Toughness might be a good one...


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## DrZombie (May 18, 2005)

Allright, doghead, i've given the character creation thinghie a quick testrun.
I've tried to be a fairly firm GM. Some of the problems:
- Prestige classes : I've loosely modeled the level progression on the wolfbrother prestige class from the Wheel of Time. However, if you try to emulate this you're lacking in character points unless you consider the various feats to be following on each other, reducing the cost to 3
I've done this with tracking->scent, because that seemed kinda logical.
I haven't done that with low-light vision or animal companion. You could rule that those are continuouiouous feats in a sense that they're part of the prestige class.
The yellow eyes seemed kinda cool. They're in the PClasss, but in the books the character is mistrusted because of them, so I kanda turned it into a flaw. I like flaws.
-I've followed the rage progression as in the books : rage 1/d, 2/d, 3/d, greater rage, 4/5, 5/d.... I think that's according to the spirit of the rules, but according to the letter i could take rage 1/d (5) greater rage (3) Tireless rage (3) Mighty rage (3)... Kinda silly to have a lvl 4 character have migty rage.
-I've paid for the damage reduction as a new line of feat progressions, paying 5 for the first and then 3 for the next. However, you could just consider damage reduction, rage, trap sense and such to be "barbarian progressions", paying 5 for the first and 3 for the rest. I dunno. For a barb it won't matter much but for a monk it'll cost a lot more to recreate the class since they have a lot of feats that aren't really progressive feats.


Anyway, this is not a defenite scetch, just an excercise. Whaddaya think?




*Nate L10 classless build* 
*Nathan Ay'Tennar*
Human Male1
Concept: Blacksmith gone feral


*Height:* 6'3"
*Weight:* 210 lbs 
*Eyes:* Black
*Hair:* Black
*Age:* 17

*Initiative:* +1 [+1 Dex]
*Speed:* 30 ft.
*Defense:* +2 [+2 BDB]
*Soak:* +5 [+2 Con, +3 Armour]
*Base Attack Bonus:* +10
* melee +16/+11 Mace, hvy (1d8+4, x2)
* ranged +12/+7 Sling (1d4+4, xX, xx ft.)
*Full Attack:* --
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* --
*Special Qualities:* Human Traits.
*Saves:* Fortitude 6/+9, Reflex 2/+3, Will 6/+8.
*Abilities:* Str 18, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 10
*Feats:* Power Attack, Skill Focus (Craft).Shield prof. Med armor prof, Rage 5/d, Greater Rage, Tracking, Scent, Damage Reduction 3/-, Low-Light, Yellow Eyes*, Animal Companion, 
Dodge, Mobility, Weapon focus : Heavy Mace
*Yellow eyes, like a wolf, -2 on social skills, +2 on intimidation.
*Languages:* Common, Dwarven, Gnomisch.

-- Build Notes --

Level 1 [12 CP build]
bab: 0.5 + 0.5 [2]
base saves: will +1, will +1 [1]
skill points: 4 + 1 [human] + 2 [int] + 4 [2] = 11x4 = 44
feats: light ap [auto], simple wp [auto], entry: power attack [human], entry: skill focus (craft) [4], entry: Shield prof [3].

Level 2 [8 pt build]

bab 0.5 + 0.5 [2]
Fort +1, Will +1 [1]
Skill points : 4 + 1 [human] + 2 [int] = 7
feats : Rage 1/d [5]

Level 3
bab 0.5 +0.5 (2)
Med Armor Prof (3)
Rage 2/d (3)
Skill pts 4+1+2=7
Fort save +1
Dodge (free)

Level 4
bab 0.5+0.5 (2)
Tracking (4)
Skill pts 4+1+2+2=9 (1)
Fort +1, Refl +1 (1)
+1 to Con (free)

Level 5
bab 0.5+0.5
Rage 3/d (3)
Scent (3)
Skill pts = 4+1+2=7
Fort +1

Lvl 6
bab 0.5+0.5 (2)
Damage Reduction 1/- (5)
Skills 4+1+2+2=9 (1)
Refl +1
Mobility (free)

Lvl 7
bab 0.5+0.5 (2)
Greater Rage (3)
Low-Light Vision (5)
Yellow Eyes (-2)
Skills 4+1+2=7
Will +1

Lvl 8
bab 0.5+0.5 (2)
Animal Companion (5)
Fort +1
Will +1 (1)
Skills 4+1+2=7
Str +1 (free)

Lvl 9
bab 0.5+0.5 (2)
Dmg Red 2/- (3)
Rage 4/d (3)
Skill 4+1+2=7
Fort +1

Lvl 10
bab 0.5+0.5 (2)
Dmg red 3/- (3)
Rage 5/d  (3)
Skills 4+1+2=7
Will +1


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## doghead (May 18, 2005)

Jeez DrZ. First I can't get you to get your current L2 character up to date. Now you're waving a L10 character around. Sheesh.

Always liked Perrin myself. I'll give your build a going over asap (but probably not before this weekend). 

If anyone else has any thoughts, ideas, suggestions, please feel free to add them to the discussion. Actually, if anyone else wants to map out their characters progression, feel free to do so. Particularly if it is something unusual. As Dr Z noted, some things are easy, some (like the Bard's Bardic Music) are more difficult.

While I was tempted to use the character you have had in the RG thread, the character I have been using for you is as below: [sblock]Nathan Ay'Tennar
Human Male 2
Concept: Blacksmith/Militian.

Leathal -- 
Subdural -

Height: 6'3"
Weight: 210 lbs
Eyes: Black
Hair: Black
Age: 17

Initiative: +1 _____________[+1 Dex]
Speed: 30 ft.
Defense: +3 ________________[+2 bab, +1 dex]
Soak: +5 ___________________[+2 Con, +3 Armour]
Base Attack Bonus: +2
* melee +5 Mace, hvy (1d8+3, x2) 
* melee +5 Large hammer (1d10+4, x3)
* ranged +2 Sling (1d4+3, xX, xx ft.)
Full Attack: --
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: --
Special Qualities: Human Traits.
Saves: Fortitude 1/+3, Reflex 0/+1, Will 3/+5.
Abilities: Str 17, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 10
Skills: 
* Craft (blacksmith) 5/+9 [+2 Int, +2 Feat], 
* Craft (weapons & armor) 5/+9 [+2 Int, +2 Feat], 
* Craft (silversmith) 5/+9 [+2 Int, +2 Feat], 
* Diplomacy 5/+5, 
* Handle Animal 5/+5, 
* Knowledge (engineering) 5/+7 [+2 Int], 
* Open Lock 5/+6 [+1 Dex], * Search 5/+5, 
* Spot 5/+5 [+2 Wis], 
* Sense Motive 5/+7 [+2 Wis] 
* Swim 1/+4 [+3 Str]
Feats: Power Attack, Skill Focus (Craft), Shield prof Languages: Common, Dwarven, Gnomisch.
Equipment:
* Worn/Carried: Heavy Mace, Knife, sling stones(20), sling, Chainmail shirt, Backpack, Pouch, Coin, Travellers outfit, Heavy cloak (on inside of cloak, wrapped in oil paper : gun+ 12 charges.)
* In Backpack: Swag (bedroll), small cocking pot, two fishooks and some fine rope, handaxe, flint&steel, oil and sand for weapon/armor maintenance, whetstone, thick rope, canvas, two waterskins (full), two waterskins (empty), Camping gear (the usual).
* In Pouch: spare flint&steel, money, oddly shaped stone, dice
* On Mount: --

Appearance, Personality and Backstory <snipped>.

-- Build Notes --

Level 1 [12 CP build]
bab: 0.5 + 0.5 [2]
base saves: will +1, will +1 [1]
skill points: 4 + 1 [human] + 2 [int] + 4 [2] = 11x4 = 44
feats: light ap [auto], simple wp [auto], entry: power attack [human], entry: skill focus (craft) [4], entry: Shield prof [3].

Level 2 [8 pt build]

bab 0.5 + 0.5 [2]
Fort +1, Will +1 [1]
Skill points : 4 + 1 [human] + 2 [int] = 7
feats : Rage 1/d [5][/sblock]
Taking AP (medium) at L2 might be a tad muchi-kinie. But changing out of Power Attack if we don't do anything with it should be OK.


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## doghead (May 22, 2005)

*Nate L10*

DrZ: I had a look over Nate. You're right, according to the RAW, you could take Rage 1/day [5], Greater Rage [3], Tireless Rage [3] etc. However, following the barabarian class progression I agree is more in the spirit of things.

You're also right about needing more points to emulate a 'regular' class. That was the case for most of the examples I tried. You can have a spellcasting Druid, or a Wildshaping Druid, but not both (at least at the same ability as 'core class' Druid of the same level).

I'm not sure how I feel about the idea of a 'barbarian' (or Druid, or Bard) progression. On the one hand, it is a way to even out some of the bumps. But on the other, it leads straight back to where we came from - classes. Of course, the option not to take any class type progression still remains. Perhaps its better to ignore the whole 'how would this fit together into a coherant whole' question and just do it on 'need to sort out' basis.

It also occured to me that, going the the whole animal totem analogy, you might be better with the Wolverine than the Wolf given the former's Rage ability.

Some other thoughts:

Damage Reduction (L6, L9, L10): I wonder if there is a need for both Toughness and DR. Perhaps we could just use a Toughness progression Toughness I, II, II, etc. Or abandon Toughness and use just DR.

Yelloweyes (L7): I'd rather stay away from 'flaws' with negative CP costs. I'd be more inclined to go with tying the flaw into the scent feat, and call its something else. I would also be inclined to make the effect of the flaw a little more of a cost hinderance. For example, the attitude of npc's who notice the Yelloweyes will deteriate by one catagory. Shopkeepers go from being indifferent to unfriendly, for example.

XXX (L9): You haven't taken anything for your level nine feat.
[sblock]--- Build Notes ---
-- 12/8 CP Build --

- Level 1 [12 cp] -
bab: 0.5 [auto] + 0.5 [2]
base saves: will +1, will +1 [1]
skill points: 4 [auto] +1 [human] +2 [int] +4 [2] = 11x4 = 44
feats: AP (light) [auto], WP (simple) [auto], power attack [human], skill focus (craft) [4], AP (shield) [3].


- Level 2 [8 cp] -
bab: 0.5 [auto] + 0.5 [2]
saves: Fort +1 [auto], Will +1 [1]
skill points: 4 [auto] +1 [human] +2 [int] = 7
feats : Rage 1/d [5]

- Level 3 [8 cp] - 
bab: 0.5 [auto] + 0.5 [2]
saves: fort +1 [auto]
skill points: 4 [auto] +1 [human] +2 [int] = 7
feats: AP (medium) [3], Rage 2/d [3], Dodge [L3]

- Level 4 [8 cp] -
bab: 0.5 [auto] + 0.5 [2]
saves: fort +1 [auto], ref +1 [1]
skill points: 4 [auto] +1 [human] +2 [int] +2 [1] = 9
feats: track [4]
stats: Con +1 [L4 increase]

- Level 5 [8 cp] -
bab: 0.5 [auto] + 0.5 [2]
saves: fort +1 [auto]
skill points: 4 [auto] +1 [human] +2 [int] = 7
feats: Rage 3/d [3], << scent [3] >>

- Level 6 [8 cp] -
bab: 0.5 [auto] + 0.5 [2]
saves: refl +1 [auto]
skill points: 4 [auto] +1 [human] +2 [int] +2 [1] = 9
feats: << Damage Reduction 1/- [5] >>, Mobility [L6]

- Level 7 << [8 cp] >> -
bab: 0.5 [auto] + 0.5 [2]
saves: will +1 [auto]
skill points: 4 [auto] +1 [human] +2 [int] = 7
feats: Greater Rage [3], Low-Light Vision [5], << Yellow Eyes [-2] >>

- Level 8 [8 cp] -
bab: 0.5 [auto] + 0.5 [2]
saves: fort +1 [auto], will +1 [1]
skill points: 4 [auto] +1 [human] +2 [int] = 7
feats: Animal Companion [5]
stats: Str +1 [L8 increase]

- Level 9 [8 cp] -
bab: 0.5 [auto] + 0.5 [2]
saves: fort +1 [auto]
skill points: 4 [auto] +1 [human] +2 [int] = 7
feats: << DR 2/- [3] >>, Rage 4/d [3], << XXX [L9] >>

- Level 10 [8 cp] -
bab: 0.5 [auto] + 0.5 [2]
saves: will +1 [auto]
skill points: 4 [auto] +1 [human] +2 [int] = 7
feats: << DR 3/- [3] >>, Rage 5/d [3][/sblock]
Thoughts anyone?

Maerdwyn: we never really came to a conclusion with the bardic music. Do you still want to go down this path. If you do, we should sort it out now.


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## DrZombie (May 22, 2005)

Thanks, doghead, for the quick review. It's more of a test-drive of the system then a detailed roadmap of the next eight levels, really. I might swap some feats around and such. Just wondering what you thought about it.


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## Seonaid (May 22, 2005)

All of the numbers swim before my eyes and I'm not sure what to make of them (I can't even really study them without wanting to curl into a ball and cry). However, here is my opinion: I really like the idea of a classless system. I think that players should be free to choose what they get and when, within some sort of frame (for example, the amount of CPs). The only time when this would be a problem is when you have munchkin players. It would cause more work for the GM, but it could be a requirement that all levels are accompanied by a description of how the new abilities/feats/skills were gained. I mean, technically, that should be happening anyway, and it's just not stated outright. However, I know that even I (perfect as I am ) sometimes choose things that just don't make sense because I want that cool new feat or I need some skill set to get the PrC I want. Making players write out thoughtful analyses of each level would curb that, and if they refuse, the GM has the option of saying, "Well, until you do that, I won't give you your new stats and I'll be rolling based on the previous level--too bad your HP and AC are so low," etc.

Edit: Did I mention that I really, _really_ like classless systems? It does make it slightly more difficult for someone like me who can't crunch numbers, but the storyteller in me really does love it.


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## Maerdwyn (May 22, 2005)

Hey guys - 

Just got Sophia back from the hospital a couple hours ago.   I'll take a look at all this in the next day or so and post something soon

-Ian


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## Seonaid (May 23, 2005)

Good ta have ya back.


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## Maerdwyn (May 23, 2005)

> Maerdwyn: we never really came to a conclusion with the bardic music. Do you still want to go down this path. If you do, we should sort it out now.




Unfortunately,  , I kind of would like to go down this path.

1)If we make the most direct translation from the PHB, You end up with Bardic Music as an entry class feat.  The character spends 5cp, then spends skill points to get his Perform rank up enough to use the same music to produce different effects.  Each use per day beyond 1 would cost 3cp.  This model's versatility may be too great compared to the cost of other feat progressions (Rage is one single ability,  but 2 Rages per day would cost the same as two uses of any of the various Bardic effects the character chooses at the time)

2)If each effect cost a feat per daily use, you get the most a la carte way to do the music, but the cost quickly outstrips the benefits of bardic music:  one gets a lot more in terms of effectiveness by progressing as a spell caster, for less cp.  (The base effect of Bardic music is Fascinate.  By spending 5cp, a character can either fascinate 1/day, or take a level of Sorcerer casting, and cast Fascinate - or his other 1st level spell - 3 or more times per day depending on his Charisma.

3)Another way to do it would be to fold the Bard's music effects into his magical progression; that is, translate the bardic music effects into "spells".  They can either remain spells or made into non-magical effects of the singing.  In the latter case, we might want to change the spell list around a bit for flavor reasons.  The advantage would be that bardic music could mechanically be handled like any other spell caster's magic progression.

Any other approaches people ccan think of?


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## khavren (May 24, 2005)

Out of curiosity, what's the status of the IC thread? Are we waiting on anything in particular there?


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## doghead (May 24, 2005)

Status: Green (ish).

Sorry, got caught up in things. We are waiting for me to move things on, which I shall get onto asap.

Will get onto the Build stuff in a moment (geologically speaking).

thotd.


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## DrZombie (May 27, 2005)

Off to southern france for two weeks with wife, kiddie and bunch of friends. Cheers.


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## Seonaid (May 27, 2005)

I'll be gone from Monday to Monday for a work conference. I'll definitely post Monday morning before I go, but I probably won't be able to post again until late the following Monday. And I definitely won't have reliable access while I'm gone. Do what you will.


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## doghead (May 30, 2005)

Apologies for the absense of late, been a little under the weather. Hopefully I will be back on my feet by the end of the week-ish.

So Seonaid (Garival) is gone til the 6th, and DrZ til the 15th-ish. I think I will try to keep things moving along as much as I can, however. Anyway, we will see what we can do.

thotd


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## Seonaid (May 30, 2005)

I'm out, kids. Garival, being independent, will do what he thinks is best in all situations. He will defer to others' judgment if it is sound, but if anyone implies he doesn't know what he is doing or tries to run roughshod over him, he'll fight back. Have fun without me.


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## doghead (May 31, 2005)

*some loose ends.*

*DrZ:* Nate has 1 lb. of the hard metal and 0.5 lb. of the silver metal (which he believes to be adamantine and mithral respectively).

Does Nate carry a shield?  He has the AP (shield), but no shield. Perhaps it interferes with his two handed swing.

Anyone got any suggestions as to how to get DzZ to post an updated Nate in the rg thread?

*Seonaid:* Garival has 24 unspent skill points. You have 49 in your build, and have spent 25. You could take all of your skills to max (5) and still have 9 skill points left (dare I suggest Heal?)

You are also using daggars. I'd be happy to consider the use of Long Knives (essentially short swords, but sounds cooler) if you wish.

Did you takle a shield? Light steel (+2 defense) or heavy steel (+3 defense)? How about bullets? Back to 20? More?

*Rations:* You have 16 days of rations in total as at the the end of the current day. Which means 4 days of full rations for everyone. Garival can provide for himself and one other for each +2 over the DC of 10, but it means moving at half his normal rate _for the day_ (which seems kinda harsh). Garival estimates it will take 3-4 more days to reach the swamp. Time, the shaman was at pains to point out, is of the essense according to the bones (but then again, so was the presense of Cromwell, Oscar, Sadolath and Lisa and Hewik). Water should be little problem give the geography. As I read the rules for food, you can go three days, then eat, thus avoiding the Con check. This would allow you to travel for 12 days without the need to look for food. Perhaps a simpler rule of thumb would be you can go for a number of days equal to your Con on half rations without adverse affect. 

I could give Garival an outside chance of running down some game while travelling at speed (DC 15, I extra person for each 3 points above the DC). He would need to travel fairly well ahead of the rest of the group though. Thoughts?

*Advancement:* Advancement outlines/ideas from everyone would be a good idea. It will help me get a better idea of where you would like to take your character. You would not, of course, be held to them.

I'm almost done updating my character sheets. I'll post them when they are do to ensure that they match yours.

thotd.


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## Maerdwyn (May 31, 2005)

I'm thinking of using music do do something like calm Nate down should the "beast" be loosed and not want to be leashed again - I'm much more interested in the morale and emotion influencing aspects of bardic music than I am in casting spells, etc.

For advancement, this is where I'm considering going at this point:
-- Build Notes --


Level 3 
[8 CP build]
bab: +1[2cp]
bases saves: Will +1 [auto], Ref +1
skills points: 4 [auto], 1 [Human] = +2 Tumble, +1 Bluff, +1 Diplomacy, +1 Perform (Sing)
feats: Bardic Music of some type or another if it seems appropriate that he could have developed that skill by this time.  Something like Point Blank Shot (to set up Precise Shot) if not.[5cp]

Level 4
[8 CP build]
bab: +.5
bases saves: Will +1 [auto], Ref +1
skills points: 4 [auto], 1 [Human] = +1 Tumble, +1 Bluff, +1 Diplomacy, +1 Perform (Sing), +1 Perform (Ode)
feats: Bardic Music of some type or another [3cp] Another feat relating to what the group has been doing - another ranged feat, for example [3cp].

I see Fredar as very reactive - he's going to make decisions on what he pursues based on what he thinks he needs (or is interested in) at the time.  The things he's always been good at will continue to progress (music, persuasion, etc.), but he doesn't have much of a strategy in terms of the military stuff.  The planned Bab increase at 3rd level is a result of seeing his (well Nate's) companions go down in fights, and especially seeing the shaman's hippogriff annihilate an orc who was obviously tougher than Fredar.  He sees that he's got to beef up some if he's going to continue to survive.


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## doghead (Jun 6, 2005)

I divided the day into four quarters (early/late morning and early/late afternoon for foraging and direction checks. Movement is at half overland speed etc etc while foraging. Once a day for the former is too infrequent, and every hour for the latter is too often I think.

*Seonaid*: I'm working on the assumption that Garival is at max ranks (5) for his skills. If Garival does actually have skill points to spare, let me know how you want to allocate them.

OK. Enough dithering by the dog. Decision time.

*Maerdwyn*: Let's go with your first option (see #220). Bardic Music as an entry ability [5 CP] that has a number of options if the character has sufficient ranks in a perform skill. Additional uses per day can be purchased as progressions [+3 CP]. Perhaps also, increases to the bonuses/targets (normall gained through leveling) can be purchased also as progressions [+3 CP]. For example, Inspire Courage gives a +1 bonus. Inspire Courage II [+3 CP] gives a +2 bonus.

So, Bardic Music [5 CP], 2/day [+3 CP], 3/day [+3 CP], etc.
* Inspire Courage progression: +1 to bonus per progression [+3 CP]. Max +4.
* Inspire Greatness progression: +1 target per progression [+3 CP].

Not sure how to handle the 'Bard Level' aspect of Suggestion (although its not really a problem for the moment).

Given that the character can choose between effects, this model does offer quite a lot of versitility. But the skill ranks restrictions and improvement costs tend to balance that. I've also found that Bardic music tends to benefit others in the group more than the bard themselves.

As you mentioned, Fredar will need to find some in narrative means to gain Bardic Music.

*DrZ*: Beast Bond [5 CP] is the entry feat allowing access to Rage, Lowlight Vision and Scent as progession feats [+3 CP each]. Taking Lowlight Vision comes with Eye of the Beast (ie: yelloweyes flaw, affecting the characters interaction with others) and Scent comes with Smell Sensitivity (which I'm sure I can find ways to use to make life unpleasant for your character.) You can adjust your L2 build accordingly (+2 CP to spend). 

Animal companion will probably not be a progression. But again, not an immediate worry.

So, unless there are any major concerns (seonaid, khavren?), we will go with this. If it turns out to be wildly unbalanced, I'll just hit the reset (aka TPK) button.

thotd


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## Maerdwyn (Jun 6, 2005)

doghead said:
			
		

> *Maerdwyn*: Let's go with your first option (see #220). Bardic Music as an entry ability [5 CP] that has a number of options if the character has sufficient ranks in a perform skill. Additional uses per day can be purchased as progressions [+3 CP]. Perhaps also, increases to the bonuses/targets (normall gained through leveling) can be purchased also as progressions [+3 CP]. For example, Inspire Courage gives a +1 bonus. Inspire Courage II [+3 CP] gives a +2 bonus.
> 
> So, Bardic Music [5 CP], 2/day [+3 CP], 3/day [+3 CP], etc.
> * Inspire Courage progression: +1 to bonus per progression [+3 CP]. Max +4.
> ...




I think that makes sense, with a possible quesion about of the additonal feats to incress effectiveness of things like inspire courage - just thinking out loud here. How does this relate to a spell like Magic Missile or fireball, which increase in effectiveness as caster level increases? In other words, if a mage's spells get better simply by spending points on caster level, there would seems to be an analogy with gaining additional levels of bard music. The level of flexibility and cost seems pretty comparable (if not somewhat more in favor of the mage or cleric caster). If that's not the way you see it, that's cool too, and I'll go with the above.

For suggestion and other things based on "Bard Level", how about this. A regular D&D bard gets one use of bardic music per level, per day. So, his uses per day is a good measure of what his level is. In your system, maybe the number of uses per day, therefore, equals the effective bard level of the character?


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## doghead (Jun 6, 2005)

*Maerdwyn*: Equating Bardic (music) Level to uses per day works. It saves a bunch of CP in the long run, but it does decrease the flexibilty significantly as you have to wait for your increases, rather than choosing when to get them. Assuming that you may only take one progression of a type per level, you could purchase up to Inspire Courage IV three levels after getting Bardic Music.

To be honest, I'm not fussed. Go with whichever suits you. Even with the automatic improvement approach, I tend agree that Bardic Music is still less bang for your buck than a level in spellcasting. An ordinary cleric (no Wis bonus spells) gets 3 Oth and 2 1st level spells per day straight off the bat, a sorcerer gets 5/3. Many of which, as you mentioned, improve in some way with each spellcasting level taken.

So assuming no strong objections from anyone, we are settled I think.

BTW, very nasty move in the HLLJ. How about cutting our poor characters some slack? An Imperial commendation for valour and Lifetime membership to TAS wouldn't go amiss.

thotd


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## Maerdwyn (Jun 6, 2005)

doghead said:
			
		

> BTW, very nasty move in the HLLJ. How about cutting our poor characters some slack? An Imperial commendation for valour and Lifetime membership to TAS wouldn't go amiss.
> 
> thotd




(What's HLLJ?  )

I figured things had been a bit slow over there lately, and thought it was time to kick things along a bit.  The edit it ready in your spoiler secion over in that thread, BTW


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## doghead (Jun 6, 2005)

HLLJ: High Law, Low Justice. Perhaps I should have put a comma in there. HL,LJ. That LJ stil loks like some sort of weird kanji, at least on my screen.

What do you mean by "the edit is ready"? 

I sblocked the response as it seemed to add a little "frission" to things. Not knowing what the others are saying or doing is the whole point of separating us. Just a thought.

thotd.


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## Maerdwyn (Jun 6, 2005)

Sorry, that didn't register. 

"Edit is ready":  When I posted my response in sblock, it was originally just "To be added" - I lost a long post and had to reconstitute it.  In case you had seen the placeholder, was just letting you know the real post was set.  No biggie.


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## Maerdwyn (Jun 6, 2005)

I'll be away Wednesday through Sunday.


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## doghead (Jun 7, 2005)

*Maerdwyn*: OK, thanks for the head up.

*seonaid, khavren*: Any thoughts on your character's advancement path?

thotd


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## khavren (Jun 7, 2005)

I was figuring on just going from what happens in the game for how to advance him. I'd like to get more spell casting of course, but not sure what past that.


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## Seonaid (Jun 8, 2005)

Whoo . . . here we go.

Garival was designed to be a younger, less impressive Lan (Wheel of Time). I'll keep him on that path (ranger/fighter) until/unless something comes up that makes him change his mind. Leveling gives me enough of a headache, that I'm not going to actually plot it out unless you would like me to.

I'll max him out in his skills and take Heal, unless something else looks good when I'm doing it.

What's the stats on long knives? No shield. Can't remember why I took the shield feat. There was some reason for it.

He will definitely try to keep his bullets at 20. If there are more, and he can carry them easily, he would take more.


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## doghead (Jun 8, 2005)

*khavren, Seonaid*: That's fine. I don't need a outline, but if you do have a advancement in mind, it can help if I know it.

*Seonaid*: Long knives are essentially just short swords. You could switch the crit to 10/+0 (20x2), and give them a 10 ft. throwing increment ... ah, but then you really should need the Martial WP (Sword). OK. Long knives are just long daggers. It has no in game effect.   Most people with some mitilia/guard experience would have AP (shield). Kind of standard training. As it hasn't come into play, feel free to change it if you wish.

OK. Max Heal. That leaves you 4 skill points I think. Know/Local (laws and customs and personages) or Prof/Landcarl (prehaps pretty much the same thing) would work. There were plenty of bullets at the hill top ruins. Knock yourself out. Can you let me know when Garival's CS is updated.


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## Seonaid (Jun 8, 2005)

::bangs head on desk::  I'll get right on it . . . when I wake up tomorrow morning. Thanks!


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## Seonaid (Jun 10, 2005)

I know, I know, Garival needs to be updated. I'll get to it soon, I promise.


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## Seonaid (Jun 10, 2005)

Fixed Garival's skill set.

Maybe I took AP (shield) for some PrC? I dunno . . . but unless/until I figure it out, it'll stay.

What's your thoughts on encumbrance/carrying capacity?


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## doghead (Jun 13, 2005)

*Seonaid:* Skills noted.



			
				Seonaid said:
			
		

> What's your thoughts on encumbrance/carrying capacity?




Many years ago I saw a lead minature figure called  "a typical adventurer" or some such. You could barely see the person under all the weapons and gear. Quite funny. I like to keep track of what characters are carrying. Why? Got something in mind?


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## Seonaid (Jun 13, 2005)

Nothing fancy. I was just wondering how many bullets I should pick up.


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## DrZombie (Jun 14, 2005)

OK doghead, I'll update Nae this weekend. Promise. Really


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## DrZombie (Jun 18, 2005)

Doghead, don't fall off your chair when you read this, but I've updated Nate.



Well, allmost.


I have 2 CP's left. Can I save'em for next level? If you point me towards the RG i'll post him there when you've approved of the final version. It's currently located at page 1 of this thread.
 Aah, and yes. What does beast mastery or whatever exactly do? 

Cheers.


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## Seonaid (Jun 27, 2005)

Did I miss khavren's exit, and what does "D+2" signify?


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## khavren (Jul 6, 2005)

I'm around! Just didn't have much to say before


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## Seonaid (Jul 14, 2005)

Glad you're still with us, khavren. 

I hate to be nitpicky (ha, no I don't), but Garival doesn't have _anything_ that qualifies as a writing implement, except blood, and that might not be taken kindly.


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## doghead (Jul 22, 2005)

doghead bites the bullet.


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## khavren (Jul 22, 2005)

I'll wait for ya


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## Seonaid (Jul 22, 2005)

Me too, definitely. Be well and know you'll be missed!


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## DrZombie (Jul 22, 2005)

as is said before:
ooh bugger, and look at this


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## doghead (Oct 19, 2005)

Hey all

Once more I return to the land of the the Connected. Cable no less. Lovely.

So who else is still here?

the head of the dog.


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## DrZombie (Oct 19, 2005)

Hahaaa, I bet you hoped I left, but I'm still stalking you   .


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## Seonaid (Oct 19, 2005)

I'm still here too . . .


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## khavren (Oct 19, 2005)

So did we get the dogs to take the note then?


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## Maerdwyn (Oct 19, 2005)

Hey doghead - glad to see you back.  Unfortunately, I'm not around for the foreseeable, so I'll have to bow out at least for now.    Wilphe is going to run a short T20 adventure based (I think) around Treth while I'm gone.

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=152221


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## doghead (Oct 20, 2005)

Great, we are all here. I'm stoked.

I currently have no files and no bookmarks and no notes. So bare with me while I reinstall, organise, and unpack. I'll pop over to the IC thread asap and see where we are. Hopefully, I will be able to wing it for a while while I get organised. Stay tuned.

Maerdwyn, I can ghost Fredar for the moment. I'll work on the basis that you will be rejoining us at some point until you let me know otherwise.

thotd


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## doghead (Nov 16, 2005)

Maerdwyn,

I can work with that. But its not often that we turn over more than once or twice a week. If I really need to move things along, I'll just ghost Fredar if thats OK. 

Good to see you again.

Which reminds me, anyone seen DrZ lately.


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## Seonaid (Nov 22, 2005)

Hey all.

Sorry for my absence. Life has been going in full swing (which is very unusual for me) and I haven't had time for much Internet stuff. I'm still interested in playing, but I don't know how much time and effort I can dedicate to this game (or any of them). Please assume I won't be around for the forseeable future. I hate to do this, as I love you guys and this campaign, but I obviously haven't been keeping up.


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