# Heroes Season [Volume] 1(#23)---5/21/07-'How to stop an Exploding Man' Season Ending.



## Truth Seeker (May 21, 2007)

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[/sblock] 



*How to Stop an Exploding Man.*​ 





*Writer*:  Tim Kring​ 
*Director*:  Allan Arkush​ 
*Star*:  Adrian Pasdar (Nathan Petrelli),  Ali Larter (Niki Sanders),  Greg Grunberg (Matt Parkman),  Hayden Panettiere (Claire Bennet),  Jack Coleman (Mr. Bennet / HRG),  Leonard Roberts (D.L. Hawkins),  Masi Oka (Hiro Nakamura),  Milo Ventimiglia (Peter Petrelli),  Noah Gray-Cabey (Micah Sanders),  Santiago Cabrera (Isaac Mendez),  Sendhil Ramamurthy (Mohinder Suresh),  Tawny Cypress (Simone Deveaux)​ 
*Recurring Role*:  Zachary Quinto (Sylar),  George Takei (Kaito Nakamura),  Adair Tishler (Molly Walker),  Clea DuVall (Audrey Hanson),  Elizabeth Lackey (Janice Parkman),  James Kyson Lee (Ando Masahashi),  Missy Peregrym (Candice Wilmer)​ 
*Guest Star*:  Richard Roundtree (Charles Deveaux)​
With all the horrible predictions unfolding before them the heroes face moments of pain and peril in Kirby Plaza.​
Who stands? Who falls? Tonight will tell all!


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## Fast Learner (May 21, 2007)

Nice, TS.

Is this supposed to be two hours, or just one?


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## Taelorn76 (May 21, 2007)

Looking at NBC's site they have it scheduled from 9 -10


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## Fast Learner (May 21, 2007)

Thanks. I went to the site and still couldn't figure it out.

I know that Lost is having a two-hour ending, and wasn't sure if my memory was crossing wires on how long the Heroes ending would be.


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## RigaMortus2 (May 21, 2007)

I hope they explain the funky symbol that keeps showing up (the tattoo on Niki, the symbol on Hiro's sword).  Sure, we know what it means, but does it have any other connection to the heroes?

Also, what about the Solar Eclipse way back in the first episode?  Does that have any relevance, and if so, what?

I heard that the last three minutes of tonights episode is the first 3 minutes of next seasons premiere.


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## Vocenoctum (May 21, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Looking at NBC's site they have it scheduled from 9 -10




The schedules all show 9-10, but I could swear they had said it would be a two hour season finale. I'll tune in at 8 to see...


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## DonTadow (May 21, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Looking at NBC's site they have it scheduled from 9 -10



Very nice pictorial TS. You went all ou for this one. I have been waiting all day for you to post the thread for this.


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## Thornir Alekeg (May 21, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> The schedules all show 9-10, but I could swear they had said it would be a two hour season finale. I'll tune in at 8 to see...



 If so, they have been screwing themselves out of an audience.  Ads running all weekend kept saying Monday, 9pm.  

TV Guide is also listing it as one hour, with a new episode of The Real Wedding Crashers following it.


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## Taelorn76 (May 21, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> The schedules all show 9-10, but I could swear they had said it would be a two hour season finale. I'll tune in at 8 to see...




I heard that two hour finale thing as well but that it was split between last week and this week.


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## dravot (May 21, 2007)

I had also heard it would be a 2 hour finale, but everything I can see schedule-wise says that it's one episode (62 minutes).


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## Silver Moon (May 21, 2007)

I heard two hours too.

On a related note, my gaming group and I were talking about it last night and the way things have built up it appears that they have taken a page or two from "Watchmen".


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## Steel_Wind (May 21, 2007)

I don't know either. Originally they said it was two hours.

Not sure what's up with all that.


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## Berandor (May 21, 2007)

Huh. Imagine...

Spoilers for Watchmen
[sblock]Hiro showing up, drawing his sword, threatening Sylar.
"I kill you, birran! You not blow upo!"
Sylar smiles: "I already did half an hour ago."[/sblock]

Surely, that's not what you mean, is it?


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## Taelorn76 (May 22, 2007)

Ok so why did none of them notice that Sylar's body was missing, and notice the blood trail leading to the sewers?


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## Vocenoctum (May 22, 2007)

Decent ending, but overall not the best. Too much repetition for some characters throughout the season. Don't like Sylar's end, don't understand Peters end, liked Nathans end, liked Hiro's end, otherwise stuff was unanswered that was so-so. Resolution was not very complete for a Season Ender, but fine.


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## Rystil Arden (May 22, 2007)

Wow, the ending everyone (except the doomsayers who said the future was immutable) predicted.  Honestly, they could have just let Claire shoot Peter and then pulled out the bullet later.

Does anyone else think that the ambiguous state of Parkman at the end means "We don't know if we have him yet or not for Season 2" ?


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## Vocenoctum (May 22, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Ok so why did none of them notice that Sylar's body was missing, and notice the blood trail leading to the sewers?




Why does Sylar get shot and stabbed and survive so consistently?


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## Taelorn76 (May 22, 2007)

Did anyone else catch Molly's comment about the one person she could not find? I say that will be the BBEG next season.


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## Vocenoctum (May 22, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Did anyone else catch Molly's comment about the one person she could not find? I say that will be the BBEG next season.




I thought Haitian myself, but could be.


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## Rystil Arden (May 22, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Why does Sylar get shot and stabbed and survive so consistently?



 It's a comic book villain special ability--plot immunity!



			
				Taelorn said:
			
		

> Did anyone else catch Molly's comment about the one person she could not find? I say that will be the BBEG next season.




That or maybe the Haitian.


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## Dog Moon (May 22, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Ok so why did none of them notice that Sylar's body was missing, and notice the blood trail leading to the sewers?




Yeah, I was kinda wondering that too.  I can understand him escaping when they're all looking skyward, but that no one noticed even after that, I have no idea...


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## Taelorn76 (May 22, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Why does Sylar get shot and stabbed and survive so consistently?




Also notice how he just appeared behind Noah? I say he either has super speed or his sneak skilled his maxed. 

Another possibility is that he has Blink's/ Nightcrawler's  power.


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## Vocenoctum (May 22, 2007)

Also, I believe this means Candace is indeed hotchick and not FatGirl/Guy like some of you twisted folks thought! So ha!


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## Tolen Mar (May 22, 2007)

Thats it?!

That's friggin it?!

What happened to the fire, the ice, the knock down, drag out fight?

I was expecting a real showdown, and all it was was Neo?  with a force choke?

Ahem.  Please excuse me.  Aside from that, I still enjoyed the show.  I like what we saw of the next season, and it seems that we might have gotten a hint about the symbol at least.


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## Vocenoctum (May 22, 2007)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> It's a comic book villain special ability--plot immunity!



I've called Plot Device too often, I figured my PD Points were running low.





> That or maybe the Haitian.




I beat you by 1 minute, thus gaining all the points from the declaration!


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## DonTadow (May 22, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Did anyone else catch Molly's comment about the one person she could not find? I say that will be the BBEG next season.



Yup, noticed it immediately. 

Even better Easter Egg, did you notice what container they put Julie Robert's brother in, it said hazardous material.  How many supervillians has that stuff spawned. 

Overall I liked the resolution. We still don't now what Sylar uses to move around.  We are guessing super speed but no one has seen him run.  It feels like some form of sensory teleportation.  He's pretty fast with it.  

Rationalizing, 
sylars dead and their waiting for the coronor.  There's no reason to sit there and watch over a dead body when everyone else is injured or dying somehow.  

I bet you that peter survives somehow. Remember, he has Jessica and nickis power, which gives him the ability to body jump.  Nathan though is toast.


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## Taelorn76 (May 22, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Also, I believe this means Candace is indeed hotchick and not FatGirl/Guy like some of you twisted folks thought! So ha!




I caught that myself, if all her illusions faded when she was knocked out, then the comic book from the Simpsons should have been lying on the floor.


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## Taelorn76 (May 22, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> I bet you that peter survives somehow. Remember, he has Jessica and nickis power, which gives him the ability to body jump.  Nathan though is toast.




Peter had Nathan's ability to fly, other than an heroic sacrifice Nathan's death was not needed.


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## DonTadow (May 22, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> I caught that myself, if all her illusions faded when she was knocked out, then the comic book from the Simpsons should have been lying on the floor.



Yeah, i think we all were waiting for some big behemoth to remain in her place. Or worst yet a guy.


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## Vocenoctum (May 22, 2007)

Tolen Mar said:
			
		

> Thats it?!
> <snip>
> 
> I was expecting a real showdown, and all it was was Neo?  with a force choke?




Lots of repetition, folks reassuring Nikki of her strength, telling Hiro he's brave and capable, telling Peter he's a hero, telling Claire to put the cheerleader outfit back on, Sylar dominating combats simply because no one else uses their freaking powers on him...

Maybe someone should have mentioned to Peter to Stop Time, Telekinese, Invisible Up, or whatever.


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## Rystil Arden (May 22, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> Yup, noticed it immediately.
> 
> Even better Easter Egg, did you notice what container they put Julie Robert's brother in, it said hazardous material.  How many supervillians has that stuff spawned.
> 
> ...



 They seemed to assume that Claire's power would keep Peter safe, even before the whole flying thing.  They could probably come up with a way to get rid of him if they wanted though, or move him to another body if they want a different actor but want to keep the character.  Nathan, they could claim he let Peter go and flew away before the explosion, but I think that would cheapen the ending for me too much.


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## Crothian (May 22, 2007)

Aside from them leaving it open to bring Sylar back I liked it.  It was heavy handed at times but about what I expected.  

I doubt it was the Haitian Molly referred to.  Abilities just don't seem to work around him, I doubt Molly would get anything.  It seems like it is foreshadow for next season.  Of course the way this show goes they will build him up as a big bad and powerful guy and then Sylar will eat him.


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## Taelorn76 (May 22, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> Even better Easter Egg, did you notice what container they put Julie Robert's brother in, it said hazardous material.  How many supervillians has that stuff spawned.




Yeah, but in this show the powers seem to come from genetic mutations. have an external element create a super would I feel cheapen the others abit


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## LightPhoenix (May 22, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Peter had Nathan's ability to fly, other than an heroic sacrifice Nathan's death was not needed.




Except, we have never seen Peter use more than one power at once.  Given statements from the writers that Peter is kind of like a filing cabinet, that makes sense.  Additionally, Peter was probably trying not to blow up right then and there.

Side effect, it makes a Peter/Sylar fight more even - Peter can only do one thing at once, but he gets powers much easier (and add Super Strength to his arsenal).  Sylar can do multiple things at once, but works harder to get powers.

Claire couldn't kill Peter.  Even so, Nathan stepped in and did the deed so that Claire wouldn't have to.  It was his supreme act of sacrifice and fatherhood and repentance towards Claire, by saving her innocence.


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## Vocenoctum (May 22, 2007)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Except, we have never seen Peter use more than one power at once.  Given statements from the writers that Peter is kind of like a filing cabinet, that makes sense.  Additionally, Peter was probably trying not to blow up right then and there.




Didn't he fly during timestop to flee?


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## LightPhoenix (May 22, 2007)

My initial thoughts:

Molly and Micah were adorable.  I'm hoping part of Generations is exploring their new future.

I loved the quasi-team-up on Sylar.  I hated the fact that yet again, we don't see a big battle between the two.  If there was a time they needed to do it, it was this episode.

I've said it about Michael on Lost, I'll say it about Matt here - a perfect example of a low Wisdom character.  He isn't dumb, he just doesn't think things through.  Contrast with Bennett, a high Wisdom character, or Mohinder, who's mostly average.

I cheered when Candace got knocked out in one blow by Niki.  Also, in the scene, Candace shaking her hand in pain was a nice touch.

I really should have seen Noah coming, given Peter and Gabriel, and the events in Five Years Gone.

That was the most badass "yatta" ever spoken.  It's a shame that whole scene made no sense.  Sylar knocks around Peter, Bennett, Matt, and Niki no problem, but lets Hiro run straight at him?  It would have been better if Hiro appeared right on top of him.

Finally, I love the fact that saving Claire had nothing to do with her powers, as everyone thought.  That was absolutely perfect.   I kind of wish that the writers hadn't had Nathan hint at it with his line about saving the world - I thought it was just subtle enough without it.

I would say last week's episode was slightly better, but I thought this was a pretty good ending.  Waiting with bated breath for next season.


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## Thornir Alekeg (May 22, 2007)

I'm not convinced Claire's power could help Peter in this.  If a stick or shard of glass in the brain can keep them from regenerating, how will it work when Peter is atomized all across the atmosphere?  Which molecule is the one the the stick has to be in to stop the regeneration.  

Claire survived her encounter with Ted because she burned all her hair and skin off, but her brain was intact.  Peter going nova?  Not so easy.

Of course I'm sure for plot, he'll be back if they want it (and I assume they will).


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## LightPhoenix (May 22, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Didn't he fly during timestop to flee?




Nope.  The taser falls to the ground and Bennett and the Haitian run up as Peter throws Claude off the roof and flies away.


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## WayneLigon (May 22, 2007)

Very pleased with everything. Especially our little look at Season Two.

I was pleased that Candice was not 500 pounds or anything; she was maybe a little pudgy in the middle. That makes her case all the sadder, that she's let herself get all twisted up over really nothing. Her problem is her image, so her power relates to images.


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## dravot (May 22, 2007)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> I'm not convinced Claire's power could help Peter in this.  If a stick or shard of glass in the brain can keep them from regenerating, how will it work when Peter is atomized all across the atmosphere?  Which molecule is the one the the stick has to be in to stop the regeneration.
> 
> Claire survived her encounter with Ted because she burned all her hair and skin off, but her brain was intact.  Peter going nova?  Not so easy.
> 
> Of course I'm sure for plot, he'll be back if they want it (and I assume they will).




Don't forget that Ted is immune to Ted's powers.


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## LightPhoenix (May 22, 2007)

dravot said:
			
		

> Don't forget that Ted *was* immune to Ted's powers.




Fixed.


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## DonTadow (May 22, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Yeah, but in this show the powers seem to come from genetic mutations. have an external element create a super would I feel cheapen the others abit



not neccessarily. I think it will add something new to the show.  Eventually the mutant of the week will get old and a new type of villian will need to come about.  I see mutants and aliens in this shows future.


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## Richards (May 22, 2007)

Hey, when Hiro ended up in feudal Japan at the end of this episode/beginning of next season, was that lone samurai with the blue on his helmet George Takai?  It kind of looked like him, and reinforces the theory that he's immortal/very long-lived.

Johnathan


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## Richards (May 22, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> I see mutants and aliens in this shows future.



I hope we don't see aliens in this show.  I think I like it sticking to one united "premise" for emerging superpowers in humanity.

Johnathan


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## babomb (May 22, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Peter had Nathan's ability to fly, other than an heroic sacrifice Nathan's death was not needed.




It's possible that, not being able to control his blowing up ability would keep him from being able to control his other abilities (like flying) as well. What I want to know is why they couldn't shoot him and pull out the bullet later or just tranquilize him like they did to Ted.



			
				Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> I'm not convinced Claire's power could help Peter in this. If a stick or shard of glass in the brain can keep them from regenerating, how will it work when Peter is atomized all across the atmosphere? Which molecule is the one the the stick has to be in to stop the regeneration.
> 
> Claire survived her encounter with Ted because she burned all her hair and skin off, but her brain was intact. Peter going nova? Not so easy.
> 
> Of course I'm sure for plot, he'll be back if they want it (and I assume they will).



Well, he was there in 'Five Years Later', despite having blown up. It seems that he can somehow survive.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 22, 2007)

Richards said:
			
		

> Hey, when Hiro ended up in feudal Japan at the end of this episode/beginning of next season, was that lone samurai with the blue on his helmet George Takai?  It kind of looked like him, and reinforces the theory that he's immortal/very long-lived.
> 
> Johnathan



 Looked like him to me.

Oh, and on Sylar surviving...methinks the cockroach connection that keeps appearing with him is an important part of it.


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## Taelorn76 (May 22, 2007)

Did anyone else notice the flashes in Sylar's eyes as he lay there? It seemed to be flashes of peoples powers and then his eyes were milky like Issac's. I am wondering if that was the powers he had gathered slipping away or what?


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## Taelorn76 (May 22, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> not neccessarily. I think it will add something new to the show.  Eventually the mutant of the week will get old and a new type of villian will need to come about.  I see mutants and aliens in this shows future.




See I don't think so. If the show goes to SCI-FI it will loose the average viewer. Look at Surface and the other show with aliens in the water?


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## Taelorn76 (May 22, 2007)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Looked like him to me.
> 
> Oh, and on Sylar surviving...methinks the cockroach connection that keeps appearing with him is an important part of it.




I am not sure I noticed a roach tied to Sylar before?

They do say a roach could survive an A-bomb


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## Alzrius (May 22, 2007)

I liked it. They wrapped up quite a few things, but left plenty of dangling plot threads for next season. I can't wait to see Sylar next season (though I was really hoping it'd be Evil President Sylar traveling back in time), to say nothing of the new BBEG Molly referenced!


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 22, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> I am not sure I noticed a roach tied to Sylar before?
> 
> They do say a roach could survive an A-bomb



 There was one in the lab when he was playing dead. To be honest that's all I can think of off the top of my head, but he just keeps going all the time. Not to mention that there was a strong focus on that cockroach on the manhole at the end.

Also seems like they wouldn't have had Mohinder going on about the bugs being so great early on. He talks about their being so advanced and then more than once Sylar mentions that about himself.


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## LightPhoenix (May 22, 2007)

babomb said:
			
		

> It's possible that, not being able to control his blowing up ability would keep him from being able to control his other abilities (like flying) as well. What I want to know is why they couldn't shoot him and pull out the bullet later or just tranquilize him like they did to Ted.
> 
> Well, he was there in 'Five Years Later', despite having blown up. It seems that he can somehow survive.




For the latter, see dravot's post above - Ted was immune to his own power.  It's only logical Peter and Sylar are too.

I've been thinking about the former, and I'm thinking that the answer is, shooting Peter would make him blow up, just like shooting Ted did.  As for tranquilizers, I don't know, but my only answer is no one had them around?  It's a stretch.

The alternative answer, which has no basis for proof whatsoever, is that it wasn't specifically Ted's power that made him explode, but absorbing too many powers.


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## Dinkeldog (May 22, 2007)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> I liked it. They wrapped up quite a few things, but left plenty of dangling plot threads for next season. I can't wait to see Sylar next season (though I was really hoping it'd be Evil President Sylar traveling back in time), to say nothing of the new BBEG Molly referenced!




And the possibility of a "Guardian Angel" in Simone's father.


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## Steel_Wind (May 22, 2007)

Problem with hanging on the 9th Wonders Boards too much was that mostly everybody figured out Nathan was going to fly Peter up to save the city...

And they were right.

Nobody guessed "Noah" though . Poor HRG, now he's got a name like everybody else. In this mirror-mirror of the the Star Trek Universe that Heroes is, now he can die like everybody else!

I agree that it would have been better if Hiro had *bamfed* in on top of Sylar and run him through (from behind - a la Sam Gamgee in the Tower of Cirith Ungol)

But I was still cheering.

Angela Petrelli is a real bitch though. We still have her to contend with next season.

The plot hook of putting Molly somewhere where Mohinder can get to her drives the "finding the specials" part of the show.

Last point: Does Mohinder have a power after all? Is this walking in the  past - talking to the  dead in your dreams Angela's power that Peter got from her? I thought so...

But if you think about it - it is exactly the same thing that Mohinder did. No difference at all. Peter never dreamed in the past until after he met Mohinder in the cab, either.

I'm not so sure Mohinder is a "normal" after all.


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## Jeremy757 (May 22, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Did anyone else notice the flashes in Sylar's eyes as he lay there? It seemed to be flashes of peoples powers and then his eyes were milky like Issac's. I am wondering if that was the powers he had gathered slipping away or what?




As seen in the beginning of the episode it appears that Sylar had learned to use Isaacs power without having to paint the images.  I suspect that as he lay on the ground dying he took a glimps into the future to see if he would actually live or not.


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## Ed_Laprade (May 22, 2007)

Well done, IMO. But, hehe, am I the only one who was betting with himself that they'd forget that an atomic explosion would create an EMP? Yep, the lights were still on. Oh yeah, and let's everyone look up at an atomic explosion and have our eyes melt! Loved the preview for next season. But if Sylar did survive having a sword run through his heart I expect that when he shows up again it will be my last episode. As I've said before, I've hated that in the comics for a looong time now.


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## Vocenoctum (May 22, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Last point: Does Mohinder have a power after all? Is this walking in the  past - talking to the  dead in your dreams Angela's power that Peter got from her? I thought so...
> 
> But if you think about it - it is exactly the same thing that Mohinder did. No difference at all. Peter never dreamed in the past until after he met Mohinder in the cab, either.
> 
> I'm not so sure Mohinder is a "normal" after all.




Mohinder's dreams were inspired by the little kid he tracked down. If I had to lay odds, I'd say that the dead guy was the Dream guy and Peter got them from him. (Letting him fly with the guy for instance.)

I think various people have the same powers at times. (There were more paintings than just Isaac's, IIRC.)


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## RigaMortus2 (May 22, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Peter never dreamed in the past until after he met Mohinder in the cab, either.




Sure he did.  The very first time we see him he is dreaming of dropping off of a large building.


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## RigaMortus2 (May 22, 2007)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Nope.  The taser falls to the ground and Bennett and the Haitian run up as Peter throws Claude off the roof and flies away.




That would be Telekinesis that made the tazers freeze in place and then drop to the ground.  If it were timestop, when the timestop ended, the tazers would keep going.


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## Vocenoctum (May 22, 2007)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> I loved the quasi-team-up on Sylar.  I hated the fact that yet again, we don't see a big battle between the two.  If there was a time they needed to do it, it was this episode.



Right, everything was sort of disjointed with the fight. All in all I think the Sylar fight was disappointing.



> I've said it about Michael on Lost, I'll say it about Matt here - a perfect example of a low Wisdom character.  He isn't dumb, he just doesn't think things through.  Contrast with Bennett, a high Wisdom character, or Mohinder, who's mostly average.



Bennet's problem is he's an ex-cop who didn't wear a vest. 



> I cheered when Candace got knocked out in one blow by Niki.  Also, in the scene, Candace shaking her hand in pain was a nice touch.



I dunno, the fight vs Candace was fun, but not as "mental" as I'd have thought. I like Candace and hopefully she'll be back. 



> I really should have seen Noah coming, given Peter and Gabriel, and the events in Five Years Gone.



and of course "god sends great skills" or whatever.



> Finally, I love the fact that saving Claire had nothing to do with her powers, as everyone thought.  That was absolutely perfect.   I kind of wish that the writers hadn't had Nathan hint at it with his line about saving the world - I thought it was just subtle enough without it.



Actually, saving Claire WAS all about her power. Hiro had a plan, that was it. The unforeseen side effects of that plan might have meant something different, but that was his reason for saving her. Aside from the fact she didn't save anything really. I liked Nathan's end, but it seems like there were plenty of alternatives.


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## Vocenoctum (May 22, 2007)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Nope.  The taser falls to the ground and Bennett and the Haitian run up as Peter throws Claude off the roof and flies away.




Well, if he can't use more than one power at a time, he should have just done something else to end the radioactive stuff!


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## Pants (May 22, 2007)

Ed_Laprade said:
			
		

> Well done, IMO. But, hehe, am I the only one who was betting with himself that they'd forget that an atomic explosion would create an EMP? Yep, the lights were still on. Oh yeah, and let's everyone look up at an atomic explosion and have our eyes melt! Loved the preview for next season. But if Sylar did survive having a sword run through his heart I expect that when he shows up again it will be my last episode. As I've said before, I've hated that in the comics for a looong time now.



It looked like Sylar got a sword through the gut, not the heart.


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## RigaMortus2 (May 22, 2007)

So, I wonder how future Hiro will react?  I mean, in his world, Peter is alive.  Will future Hiro be in an alternate timeline where Peter is still alive, or will the future be changed and the future Hiro we know (as well as the future we've seen) will be totally different?


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## Remus Lupin (May 22, 2007)

> I the only one who was betting with himself that they'd forget that an atomic explosion would create an EMP?




As soon as the explosion happened, I turned to my wife and said "EMP." And of course, nuthin'.

My wife thinks that all Nathan had to do was fly Peter up high enough and he could fly off and save himself. It's a possibility, no doubt. Unless there's a body, in these matters, there's no death (leaving aside for a moment what "the body" would be if you're at the center of a thermonuclear exposion, but I'll settle for a flashback in which Peter watches him disintegrate).


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## John Crichton (May 22, 2007)

babomb said:
			
		

> It's possible that, not being able to control his blowing up ability would keep him from being able to control his other abilities (like flying) as well. What I want to know is why they couldn't shoot him and pull out the bullet later or just tranquilize him like they did to Ted.



Because the guy who actually has a good shot couldn't shoot.  And the cop was already down.  Not to mention that only Claire, Peter, Nathan and Mr. Bennett knew about the headshot.  If perhaps there was a character with super-aim, that would have worked but as they set it up, just shooting Peter in the head wasn't possible at that point.

Plus, that may not have worked.  He still could have gone off, not to mention the bullets could have melted before they took him down.  I have no problem with Nathan's save.


----------



## John Crichton (May 22, 2007)

Also, something just occurred to me.  We have parallels to established comic book characters already.  Nikki/Hulk, Peter/Rogue, etc.

Noah Bennett appears to be the show's version of Batman.  Dude always has a plan.


----------



## Sir Brennen (May 22, 2007)

At the beginning of volume 2, when Hiro hit the ground and saw medival soldiers in the background, how many people expected a Delta 88 to fall to earth behind him?   

And wasn't there an eclipse in Evil Dead 2, as well?


----------



## papastebu (May 22, 2007)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Looked like him to me.
> 
> Oh, and on Sylar surviving...methinks the cockroach connection that keeps appearing with him is an important part of it.



I think he melted himself and then went into the sewer. Sorry if this is a repeat, but I can't get the first page to load, I imagine because it is too visually-intensive. Too many images for my pathetic dial-up to handle.


----------



## John Crichton (May 22, 2007)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> So, I wonder how future Hiro will react?  I mean, in his world, Peter is alive.  Will future Hiro be in an alternate timeline where Peter is still alive, or will the future be changed and the future Hiro we know (as well as the future we've seen) will be totally different?



Future who?


----------



## papastebu (May 22, 2007)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> So, I wonder how future Hiro will react?  I mean, in his world, Peter is alive.  Will future Hiro be in an alternate timeline where Peter is still alive, or will the future be changed and the future Hiro we know (as well as the future we've seen) will be totally different?



Yes. Yes, and... uhh... yes.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (May 22, 2007)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Noah Bennett appears to be the show's version of Batman.  Dude always has a plan.



He's Professor X with fewer powers, more hair and more use of his legs. Molly is Cerebro.


----------



## Steel_Wind (May 22, 2007)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> Sure he did.  The very first time we see him he is dreaming of dropping off of a large building.




No. That was a precognitive dream. I said "dreamed of the past".

I know about the kid in India and the explanation for him. It just seems odd that Peter seems to have the same dream power that Mohinder experienced.

The best explanation of course is the same reason the Heroes keep coming back to Isaac's loft: the budget only permits so many powers and so many sets


----------



## Krug (May 22, 2007)

Hmm no big fight. Not a bad ending though.

I think Sylar will be back, but not very soon. Maybe Season 3 or something. I know a lot of female fans will want Peter to be back. 

The comic book seemed to show Sylar being injected with something before Hiro cuts him. 

I think Parkman will be back. Come on; that was only a flesh wound.


----------



## Silver Moon (May 22, 2007)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> Very pleased with everything. Especially our little look at Season Two.



Looks to me like a lot of Season Two will deal a lot with the previous generation of heroes, which explains why so many were referenced in the final few episodes.    I think we're already up to five of them.


----------



## PhoenixDarkDirk (May 22, 2007)

I liked Sylar's dismissive attitude toward Ando, "What would I want with _your_ brain?"


----------



## DonTadow (May 22, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> See I don't think so. If the show goes to SCI-FI it will loose the average viewer. Look at Surface and the other show with aliens in the water?



And mutants aren't scifi?  Eventually they will need something else to fight other than themselves.  That reinforces the united theme.  Perhaps the next season its another big bad mutant asthe villian, but after that, the stakes will needto be raised, the earth will need to be in danger.

Aliens done well (think V) would be cool.

As for the mutant mr. roberts, Heroes has already taken a scifi show and made it pretty humane. I don't see how one villian brought back by other means would be that terrible.


----------



## LightPhoenix (May 22, 2007)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> That would be Telekinesis that made the tazers freeze in place and then drop to the ground.  If it were timestop, when the timestop ended, the tazers would keep going.




True, I think that's the best case I've heard against it being the Time Stop.  Plus they seem wary of letting Peter use Hiro's powers.



			
				Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Actually, saving Claire WAS all about her power. Hiro had a plan, that was it. The unforeseen side effects of that plan might have meant something different, but that was his reason for saving her.




Not at all.  Peter's determination to save Claire and his compassion influencing her rubbed off on Nathan.  If Claire wasn't there, Nathan wouldn't have seen her and felt that compassion, and gone through with the plan.  Sylar not getting her power was what Future Hiro _assumed_ was the key (he too thought Sylar was the bomb), but he was wrong.


----------



## D.Shaffer (May 22, 2007)

Out of curiosity, has anyone actually had a chance to freeze the images going through Sylar's eyes before they go milky?


----------



## Sir Brennen (May 22, 2007)

Krug said:
			
		

> The comic book seemed to show Sylar being injected with something before Hiro cuts him.



Wasn't that just the panel Mohinder referred to when he injected the Haitian in "5 Years Later" ("I think I'm suppose to help you.")


----------



## Hand of Evil (May 22, 2007)

I wanted a big fight, this was everyone coming together but as fights and ending go, not so much.  

Peter's problem, HE IS DUMB!  He knows he has all this powers but he does not take the time to learn them as Claude told him.  What a waste of superpowers.  At least Sylar was smart and I am glad to see him drag himself off.

I got the impression that the Generation's story was to be a tag on this one but looks to have been changed at the last minute for a summer show.


----------



## Brown Jenkin (May 22, 2007)

My theory on the BBEG that Molly won't search for because "he" looks back at her is that it is Ma Petrelli. Mom is deffiinitely associated with the last generation of supers but has yet to reveal what her power is. She was well aware of the bomb and was working with Linderman to make that future happen. She is fairly evil and if she thinks that Hiro and company are responsible for both her sons death (but especially Nathan's) she might just go overboard. 

It was also good to see that the writers avoided a paradox by having Hiro leave the Kensai sword with Ando.


----------



## Umbran (May 22, 2007)

As for the big question of "Why doesn't Peter do X to save himself?" there is a very simple answer:  Peter isn't a fast-thinking combat genius, folks.  He's just a guy.  However else the scene _might_ have been resolved, the people in it were either waffling, or down.  Nathan's solution became the one to use, maybe only because he was the one decisive enough to assert it, and with enough power of personality to make it stick before Peter went boom.

Sometimes, you don't get the optimal solution.


----------



## drothgery (May 22, 2007)

If they want Nathan and/or Peter back, it's easy enough (and if Sylar's back, they pretty much need Peter back) -- just say Nathan flew high and out over the Atlantic, and then dropped Peter when he was about to blow up. Nathan flies to safety. Peter crashes to the ocean, sinks, regens, floats to top, flies home.


----------



## Steel_Wind (May 22, 2007)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> I got the impression that the Generation's story was to be a tag on this one but looks to have been changed at the last minute for a summer show.




No. "Generations" is the name given to the second season of Heroes next season, i.e. _Heroes: Volume 2_

_Heroes: Origins _is the name of the 6 episodes to be given to the one-off, mid season bridge episodes.  Those are not destined to be shown in the summer but will appear sometime in the early part of 2008, when the main series is forced to go on hiatus as the time it takes to finish the episodes in post production otherwise necessitates a  mid-season break.

The stated intention is to commence the series in the fall and have it run, uninterrupted, for 30 weeks straight. The only interruption is the six week stint when the show switches over to "Heroes: Origins".

The only thing we are getting this summer in continued installments in the graphic novel and other features in the "Heroes 360" online marketing machine - whatever those turn out to be. 

Oh - and it looks like they are aiming to deliver the first novel in the Heroes universe, titled - _Saving Charlie_, which chronicles what Hiro attempted and failed to do - offscreen - in his quest to alter the past and save Charlie from Sylar. Whether that novel appears this summer or in the fall (Xmas season) remains to be seen.

I would prefer more 4 and 5 part graphic novels so that the story each tells is more complete and approaches the content you would find in a complete comic book.

I'm surprised Marvel has not pitched a regular monthly _Heroes_ comic book. I'm such a _Heroes_ addict I actually think I would buy it.


----------



## Taelorn76 (May 22, 2007)

A few things I noticed about last nights episode. 

I have never seen the streets of NYC so empty.

How does Claire, a girl from Texas, know how to get from Patrelli's campaign office to the building where the fight is going down.


----------



## Belen (May 22, 2007)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> I'm not convinced Claire's power could help Peter in this.  If a stick or shard of glass in the brain can keep them from regenerating, how will it work when Peter is atomized all across the atmosphere?  Which molecule is the one the the stick has to be in to stop the regeneration.
> 
> Claire survived her encounter with Ted because she burned all her hair and skin off, but her brain was intact.  Peter going nova?  Not so easy.
> 
> Of course I'm sure for plot, he'll be back if they want it (and I assume they will).




Ted did not die from his power.  I think Peter was the center with exploding energy radiating outwards.  He is immune from the effect as was Ted.


----------



## Belen (May 22, 2007)

I thought this was the perfect ending to the show and I was not disappointed in the ending at all.  The fight between Sylar and Peter in 5 Years Gone was a fight between two people mature in their powers.  Peter had been fighting with Hiro in the interim period and was MUCH more experienced.

The Peter in the finale has not learned to use his powers yet.  The Peter in the finale had just come to accept that he was worth something.  He had to rid himself of his baggage before he could ever become the power that he is destined to be.

I also like the fact that Peter is the counter to Sylar.  Shaft tells him that there is always an opposite or balancing agent.  Peter is meant to balance Sylar.  

I loved the episode last night.  It was spectacular.


----------



## Randolpho (May 22, 2007)

My prediction:

Both Nathan and Peter will be back. Peter will survive; he inherited Ted's powers and (as has been pointed out earlier) Ted is pretty much immune to his own powers. Nathan, however, will be back in a different form. Or, rather, an *illusory* form. Either Sylar will find and absorb Candace's powers, or Candace herself will assume Nathan's place as Congressman. The real Nathan, however, will actually be dead. 

Also, re. the explosion:

The EMP and/or eyes melting may not have occurred if the explosion was high enough away. It's quite possible to watch a nuclear explosion from a safe enough distance, and the EMP doesn't exactly have an infinite range.


----------



## Truth Seeker (May 22, 2007)

Heh, I felt that way, from last week, when I realized, that yes, the city can be saved. But it will take something emotional to make it happen.

Thanks to Claire, that happened.

Nice finished, will watch it again.


			
				Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Problem with hanging on the 9th Wonders Boards too much was that mostly everybody figured out Nathan was going to fly Peter up to save the city...
> 
> And they were right.
> 
> ...


----------



## Sir Brennen (May 22, 2007)

Randolpho said:
			
		

> Both Nathan and Peter will be back. Peter will survive; he inherited Ted's powers and (as has been pointed out earlier) Ted is pretty much immune to his own powers. Nathan, however, will be back in a different form. Or, rather, an *illusory* form. Either Sylar will find and absorb Candace's powers, or Candace herself will assume Nathan's place as Congressman. The real Nathan, however, will actually be dead.



Per some casting news for next season, it looks like Nathan will be back. But perhaps after Peter's proximity to Niki, Nathan will become Peter's "Jessica".


----------



## F5 (May 22, 2007)

Randolpho said:
			
		

> Also, re. the explosion:
> 
> The EMP and/or eyes melting may not have occurred if the explosion was high enough away. It's quite possible to watch a nuclear explosion from a safe enough distance, and the EMP doesn't exactly have an infinite range.




And we do know that Nathan could fly pretty darn fast when he wanted to...


----------



## Truth Seeker (May 22, 2007)

Hmmm, non-costume people are not their taste. (and yupe, it will set a standard, if they did acquire the license).


> I'm surprised Marvel has not pitched a regular monthly Heroes comic book. I'm such a Heroes addict I actually think I would buy it.


----------



## Truth Seeker (May 22, 2007)

Hmmm, looks like a flash of life, before you die type of thing. And yeah, they were too fast.


			
				D.Shaffer said:
			
		

> Out of curiosity, has anyone actually had a chance to freeze the images going through Sylar's eyes before they go milky?


----------



## Truth Seeker (May 22, 2007)

Corrected...


			
				Sir Brennen said:
			
		

> At the beginning of volume 2, when Hiro hit the ground and saw Japanese soldiers in the background, how many people expected a Delta 88 to fall to earth behind him?
> 
> And wasn't there an eclipse in Evil Dead 2, as well?


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 22, 2007)

Truth Seeker said:
			
		

> Hmmm, non-costume people are not their taste. (and yupe, it will set a standard, if they did acquire the license).



 Don't be so quick on that. Runaways is costumeless and one of the best things put out by Marvel.


----------



## Truth Seeker (May 22, 2007)

And yes, no costumes to boot.


			
				John Crichton said:
			
		

> Also, something just occurred to me.  We have parallels to established comic book characters already.  Nikki/Hulk, Peter/Rogue, etc.
> 
> Noah Bennett appears to be the show's version of Batman.  Dude always has a plan.


----------



## Skycast (May 22, 2007)

Sir Brennen said:
			
		

> Per some casting news for next season, it looks like Nathan will be back. But perhaps after Peter's proximity to Niki, Nathan will become Peter's "Jessica".




Now that would be an interesting twise for sure. It would certainly serve to give Peter a bit of an edge.


----------



## Truth Seeker (May 22, 2007)

Stand corrected  , but...methink Marvel has enough on their plate.


			
				Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Don't be so quick on that. Runaways is costumeless and one of the best things put out by Marvel.


----------



## Truth Seeker (May 22, 2007)

You are welcome...  


			
				DonTadow said:
			
		

> Very nice pictorial TS. You went all ou for this one. I have been waiting all day for you to post the thread for this.


----------



## BraveSirRobin (May 22, 2007)

I have to say that I was pretty angry after watching the finale last night.  It wasn't even close to what I wanted.  We were given very few answers and a lot more questions.  The fight with Sylar was really anti-clamatic.  Nathan's "sacrafice" was stupid.  Why would Claire be so conflicted about shooting Peter?  Why can Peter only use some of his powers on a consistent basis?  Why doesn't someone pick up the gun and shoot Sylar just to be sure?  You would have thought that Mohinder would have learned that leason.  Why doesn't Hiro freeze time to kill Syler.  And how the heck is DL still standing at the end of the battle after being shot?  Stupid, stupid, stupid.  This one was very dissappointing to me.


----------



## Wycen (May 22, 2007)

I watched with 2 buddies and we liked it, but as we asked each other all these questions I realized I was a little disappointed, but mostly because I wanted to see new villains next season not Sylar again.  

Of course one question I haven't seen asked; we see Sylar slinked away, but they have the tracking system, so how long is he going to be safe?  They need to team up and hunt him down, but I suspect we'll get more disjointed action next season.


----------



## DonTadow (May 22, 2007)

BraveSirRobin said:
			
		

> I have to say that I was pretty angry after watching the finale last night.  It wasn't even close to what I wanted.  We were given very few answers and a lot more questions.  The fight with Sylar was really anti-clamatic.  Nathan's "sacrafice" was stupid.  Why would Claire be so conflicted about shooting Peter?  Why can Peter only use some of his powers on a consistent basis?  Why doesn't someone pick up the gun and shoot Sylar just to be sure?  You would have thought that Mohinder would have learned that leason.  Why doesn't Hiro freeze time to kill Syler.  And how the heck is DL still standing at the end of the battle after being shot?  Stupid, stupid, stupid.  This one was very dissappointing to me.



To answer your questions in rambling order
Nathan was conflicted for the last three episodes and had yet to really make a choice. Seeing his daughter and brother inperil he chose to act. Do remember the conversation Peter said, Nathan had never let him down. That was a good forshadowing that Nathan would flip the script. Try shooting your uncle whom saved your life.  Peter seems to be able to use inivisiblity right well because of his esposure to Claude.  But Peter still is a level 2 character.  This is a good thing.  YOu don't want them to pull a matrix and run out of challenges for their best character so soon. Right now his challenge is mastering his powers.  It's best to watch shows and remember you're not playing a d and d game.  If someone is stabbed and falls to the ground in real life, no ones going to over and 
1. cut off his head
2. shoot him for good measure
 I think everyone thought Sylar was dead.  There needed to be another 5 minutes of that scene where we see everyone clear out and leave.  We actually don't know if sylar crawled away or was dragged away.  We also don't know what power sylar is using to move so effectively. It seems more illusionary than physical.  Hiro is honorable. Hiro also could have stabbed him from behind. But facing your enemy is a big part of hiro's personality. The last conversation with Ando was forshadowing that Hiros power does not make him a hero, his courage does.  The most painful and agoning place to take a bullet is in the gut.  It is avery slow and painful death if left untreated.  

I would have liked to see a bigger action scene, but this was never about the action scenes as much as it was about the character growth.  These are very low level characters.


----------



## Sir Brennen (May 22, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> I would have liked to see a bigger action scene, but this was never about the action scenes as much as it was about the character growth.  *These are very low level characters.*



Didn't you just say you shouldn't look at this like a DnD game?   

But you know what... in a show about humans with fantastical powers, for the season finale,* I want action scenes*!  We've had the entire season beforehand for character growth. Not to say that character growth can't occur _during _the action scenes, but still... action scenes!

[EDIT]: Action scenes... that make sense!


----------



## EricNoah (May 22, 2007)

I didn't love it -- I couldn't figure out why Peter couldn't just fly away by himself, and I couldn't figure out how Sylar allowed himself to get stabbed.  And I didn't really feel the emotions I was probably supposed to feel.


----------



## Arnwyn (May 22, 2007)

A pretty good episode - I found a few moments to be anti-climactic, but overall I enjoyed myself.

I was hoping more from Hiro stabbing Sylar, instead of just running and hitting him, with Sylar looking like he just stood there. Maybe Hiro teleporting back and forth across the courtyard dodging Sylar's TK blasts, then teleporting in for the kill! 

I also didn't like Sylar surviving, which I think is very unfortunate. Oh well, can't win 'em all.

I liked everything else. IMO, Molly's guy "who looks back" is indeed next season's BBEG (and, also IMO, patently obvious).

Edit: Oh yeah, other highlights:
- Extremely glad Ando survived. That almost made the episode for me!
- Also glad that the "future can't be changed" people were proven to be out-to-lunch. I should say so.


----------



## wolff96 (May 22, 2007)

When Ando entered Isaac's loft, he stumbled over something on the floor.  Looking down, he saw a lot of blood with no obvious source.

Later, Hiro entered the same apartment and stumbled over something on the floor.  When Hiro looked down, he saw a lot of blood with no obvious source.

We know Isaac was killed in that place, but the blood from that would have been dry a LONG time ago.

Did it seem to anyone else like they were trying to VERY subtly convey that Claude could be dead and Sylar is using his invisibility to move around so well?  He just flat-out APPEARED behind Peter and Bennett in the square.  

We know he can sort-of fly -- or at least hurl himself with TK, which amounts to the same thing -- from the episode when he first tried to get Molly's power and also the episode when he snuck up on the Super-Hearing lady.  (She said she hadn't heard his approaching footsteps and Sylar off-handedly comments that he hadn't taken any steps.)  He *could* have snuck up that way.

But his comment about "I've been here for a while, what took you so long" (something like that) makes me think he might have found Claude and gained a new trick.  Although I have to wonder how in the world he could have actually found Claude...


----------



## Fast Learner (May 22, 2007)

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> My theory on the BBEG that Molly won't search for because "he" looks back at her is that it is Ma Petrelli. Mom is deffiinitely associated with the last generation of supers but has yet to reveal what her power is. She was well aware of the bomb and was working with Linderman to make that future happen. She is fairly evil and if she thinks that Hiro and company are responsible for both her sons death (but especially Nathan's) she might just go overboard.



Ooh, excellent point. It also explains something I noticed last night: Ma Petrelli knew that Linderman was dead _almost immediately after_ he died. If you follow the timeline between the two episodes, there doesn't seem to be any obvious way for her to have known to quickly.

(Yes, one of Linderman's assistants could have discovered the body right after Nikki & DL left, and then called her, but that's a lot of assuming, too.)




			
				wolff96 said:
			
		

> Did it seem to anyone else like they were trying to VERY subtly convey that Claude could be dead and Sylar is using his invisibility to move around so well? He just flat-out APPEARED behind Peter and Bennett in the square.



Oooh, very good! That makes _perfect_ sense. I sure couldn't figure out what they were trying to show.


----------



## Tolen Mar (May 22, 2007)

Ahem...Let me just go back to last weeks thread...



			
				Tolen Mar said:
			
		

> Did anyone else notice how Sylar dissapeared after telling the FBI agent about 'his duty'?
> 
> Has he had invisibility for a while now and I missed it?  Or does this mean that Claude has been gone now for a while because Sylar got to him?
> 
> ...




You guys still think I was off the mark?


----------



## sniffles (May 22, 2007)

Tolen Mar said:
			
		

> Ahem...Let me just go back to last weeks thread...
> 
> 
> 
> You guys still think I was off the mark?



Sylar did not turn invisible. He just walked away while the agent was distracted. Not that hard to do in a crowd. I'm pretty sure they would have shown us if he'd killed Claude. 

He didn't need to be invisible to sneak away after Hiro stabbed him, either. No one was paying any attention to him after Peter and Nathan flew away. They were all too busy staring up at the sky. Everyone had other things on their minds.


----------



## WayneLigon (May 22, 2007)

wolff96 said:
			
		

> When Ando entered Isaac's loft, he stumbled over something on the floor.  Looking down, he saw a lot of blood with no obvious source.




I wondered about that, myself.



			
				wolff96 said:
			
		

> Although I have to wonder how in the world he could have actually found Claude...




Hmm. The superhearing should help him, but I don't think it would do that much for him. It might, though. He has at least a handful of powers we probably have not seen; between TK-guy and Molly's parents he kills at least, what, four people? Enough that the FBI hs hi name and a pattern. Who knows how many others he might have taken out and just have not been found or missed, yet?

Interesting theory, though I _thought _ Claude was suppossed to be back next season. Maybe just in flashbacks?


----------



## Tolen Mar (May 22, 2007)

I didn't say he turned invisible to sneak away after peter exploded.  I was mentioning it in light of the fact that he appeared behind Peter and HRG in the square.

And my thought of him turning invis near the agent earlier.  I could buy that he blended into the crowd if 

1: the crowd itself wasn't at least 10 feet away and
2: the last words he said sounded like they came from right over her shoulder.

I just don't see him having time to 'blend in' in the time it took her to turn around.


----------



## Taelorn76 (May 22, 2007)

wolff96 said:
			
		

> When Ando entered Isaac's loft, he stumbled over something on the floor.  Looking down, he saw a lot of blood with no obvious source.
> 
> Later, Hiro entered the same apartment and stumbled over something on the floor.  When Hiro looked down, he saw a lot of blood with no obvious source.
> 
> We know Isaac was killed in that place, but the blood from that would have been dry a LONG time ago.




That may have been paint from Sylar's last painting attempt.


----------



## Taelorn76 (May 22, 2007)

Tolen Mar said:
			
		

> Ahem...Let me just go back to last weeks thread...
> 
> 
> 
> You guys still think I was off the mark?




I don't think Claude is dead, or at least killed by Sylar. He was too much of a guiding figure for Peter. They would have shown that, I believe.


----------



## DonTadow (May 22, 2007)

Tolen Mar said:
			
		

> Ahem...Let me just go back to last weeks thread...
> 
> 
> 
> You guys still think I was off the mark?



I'm not going to start a Tolen was right thread, but.. .well i think you might be on to something. 

When i rewatched last week's episode, it reminded me of when claude and peter go invisible.  Of course, if sylar has this power, it makes no sense. Sylar can use multiple powers at once, meaning he could have cut everyones brain open while invisible.


----------



## DonTadow (May 22, 2007)

sniffles said:
			
		

> Sylar did not turn invisible. He just walked away while the agent was distracted. Not that hard to do in a crowd. I'm pretty sure they would have shown us if he'd killed Claude.
> 
> He didn't need to be invisible to sneak away after Hiro stabbed him, either. No one was paying any attention to him after Peter and Nathan flew away. They were all too busy staring up at the sky. Everyone had other things on their minds.



Maybe its not invisiblity but hiding in plain site. Something to that effect.


----------



## Ed_Laprade (May 22, 2007)

Pants said:
			
		

> It looked like Sylar got a sword through the gut, not the heart.



It looked like the middle of the chest to me. DL got shot in the gut. What do others think? Where did Hiro stab Sylar?


----------



## BraveSirRobin (May 22, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> To answer your questions in rambling order
> Nathan was conflicted for the last three episodes and had yet to really make a choice. Seeing his daughter and brother inperil he chose to act. Do remember the conversation Peter said, Nathan had never let him down. That was a good forshadowing that Nathan would flip the script. Try shooting your uncle whom saved your life.




The proper analogy would be to knock my uncle out to save millions.  Yeah, I think I could do that pretty easily.  A bullet to the head wouldn't of killed him, just temporarily immobilized him.  That was always their plan and no reason for them to feel conflicted about it.  Claire knew this and Nathan knew this.  Nathan's sacrifice was for no good apparent reason.  Even if he didn't want clair to shoot him, just take the gun from her and shoot him yourself.  This isn't monday morning quarterbacking either, it stupidity of their actions were clear as they were happening.  



> Peter seems to be able to use inivisiblity right well because of his esposure to Claude.  But Peter still is a level 2 character.  This is a good thing.  YOu don't want them to pull a matrix and run out of challenges for their best character so soon. Right now his challenge is mastering his powers.  It's best to watch shows and remember you're not playing a d and d game.




I can buy that he is struggling to take control of his powers.  Sure no problem.  I can also buy that he knows how to go invisible/paint/heal because he has practiced them.  But if you knew that you were destined to blow up the city with a power you recently obtained, wouldn't you practice that power until you had control of it?  It is just plain stupidity.



> If someone is stabbed and falls to the ground in real life, no ones going to over and
> 1. cut off his head
> 2. shoot him for good measure
> I think everyone thought Sylar was dead.




Not me.  As soon as Hiro stabbed him, I was looking for the carry through to cut off his head.  Everytime they cut to his dying form I thought the same thing.  Somebody shoot, stab, stomp or burn him.  Something.  It was like a bad horror flick.  I think it would be pretty obvious that someone should just make sure the SUPERVILLIAN, you know the guy with all the crazy powers, was dead.  Heck, DL was fine after being shot in the stomach, why would anyone expect Sylar to die after that.  Especially since he continued to use his powers to attack Hiro AFTER he had been stabbed.  KILL HIM!



> There needed to be another 5 minutes of that scene where we see everyone clear out and leave.  We actually don't know if sylar crawled away or was dragged away.



Now that would have been fine, but there wasn't enough information present to make that determination other then pure speculation.  I hope that is the case but we won't know that for months.  I would have been fine with something like that for a week but months without even a hint to indicate such?  Unacceptable.



> Hiro is honorable. Hiro also could have stabbed him from behind. But facing your enemy is a big part of hiro's personality. The last conversation with Ando was forshadowing that Hiros power does not make him a hero, his courage does.  The most painful and agoning place to take a bullet is in the gut.  It is avery slow and painful death if left untreated.




And yet he was standing up at the end of the scene as if he was getting better not worse.  Plus, as mentioned before, Sylar had a similar wound.  If it is logical to think that DL could still be alive then it would also be logical to think those around DL wouldn't automatically assume that Sylar was dead either.



> I would have liked to see a bigger action scene, but this was never about the action scenes as much as it was about the character growth.  These are very low level characters.




I am fine with character growth instead of action, but then it needs to be sensible.  If there is no action and the character growth is extremely flawed then you are left unsatisfied, as I am.


----------



## hafrogman (May 22, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> Sylar can use multiple powers at once.




Can he?  I can't specifically recall any situation where he has.  I'm not saying this is wrong, but I'm curious as to where we've seen it.  Most of the time he just uses a lot of TK.  Grab Peter, TK.  Shoot Matt, TK.  Fling Hiro, TK.


----------



## Fast Learner (May 22, 2007)

He certainly somehow holds people up off the ground while slicing their heads open. That seems like more than one at a time.


----------



## BraveSirRobin (May 22, 2007)

Ed_Laprade said:
			
		

> It looked like the middle of the chest to me. DL got shot in the gut. What do others think? Where did Hiro stab Sylar?




I just watched it on NBC.com.  It is hard to tell, but it looks like Hiro thrusts upwards, entering through the abdomen and exiting in the middle of the back right between the bottom of the shoulder blades.

Also looking at his eyes as the people flash, I thought I saw Claude but it wasn't very clear.  The last image was clearly of himself lying on the ground dying.


----------



## Hand of Evil (May 22, 2007)

I am feeling that Mohinder must have a healing power of some sort.  

Sylar has always had a unknown movement power, just wish they would let us in on it, feeling it is some form of animal (cat) like leaping and quickness.


----------



## BraveSirRobin (May 23, 2007)

Tolen Mar said:
			
		

> Ahem...Let me just go back to last weeks thread...
> 
> 
> 
> You guys still think I was off the mark?




Yes, you are off the mark.  In Episode 3 Sylar exhibited traits of being able to move quickly/stealthly.  The female detective had chased him down a dead end alley way.  Sylar was able to "suddenly disappear".  And this is long before Peter met the invisible man.  Speaking of that encounter, if you remember, Peter only found claude because he could see through his invisibility.  If Sylar was using invisibility in the last seen then Peter should have been able to see him.


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 23, 2007)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Not at all.  Peter's determination to save Claire and his compassion influencing her rubbed off on Nathan.  If Claire wasn't there, Nathan wouldn't have seen her and felt that compassion, and gone through with the plan.  Sylar not getting her power was what Future Hiro _assumed_ was the key (he too thought Sylar was the bomb), but he was wrong.




We're talking about two different things here. Hiro's plan to save Claire was solely to stop Sylar from getting Healing. The plot device for the show was to get them togethor to influence each other.

For purposes of the Alternate Timeline, 5 Years Past seems to have been a worthless (if fun!) look at the future. Assuming Hiro jumped back and changed the timeline, then returned to 5 Years Past to find an Alternate Timeline, and Current Hiro went back and could alter it from there to save it... well, it doesn't hold water IMO. Hiro's actions didn't alter major events up until Stabbity Stab and the other actions occuring around that time don't sync up well.


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 23, 2007)

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> I liked everything else. IMO, Molly's guy "who looks back" is indeed next season's BBEG (and, also IMO, patently obvious).




Maybe the Dark One can command roachs and they dragged Sylar's body underneath the sewers, where the Dark One reanimates him in a mockery of his old form.


----------



## Pseudonym (May 23, 2007)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> He certainly somehow holds people up off the ground while slicing their heads open. That seems like more than one at a time.




That would just be a more nuanced use of the TK power.

When he was in his mother's apartment, he was making the snow globes fly around the room while freezing the water from the sprayer at the same time, if I recall correctly.


----------



## Fast Learner (May 23, 2007)

BraveSirRobin said:
			
		

> And this is long before Peter met the invisible man.  Speaking of that encounter, if you remember, Peter only found claude because he could see through his invisibility.  If Sylar was using invisibility in the last seen then Peter should have been able to see him.



I don't see that at all. Peter was able to see Claude as invisible because Peter accidentally picked up the power and went invisible himself. Seemed pretty clear to me, anyway, that you can see invisible people when you're invisible, not because you have the power.


----------



## Fast Learner (May 23, 2007)

Pseudonym said:
			
		

> That would just be a more nuanced use of the TK power.



Naw, I really don't think so. I think the slicing power is its own thing, separate from the TK entirely.


----------



## Steel_Wind (May 23, 2007)

wolff96 said:
			
		

> When Ando entered Isaac's loft, he stumbled over something on the floor.  Looking down, he saw a lot of blood with no obvious source.
> 
> Later, Hiro entered the same apartment and stumbled over something on the floor.  When Hiro looked down, he saw a lot of blood with no obvious source.
> 
> We know Isaac was killed in that place, but the blood from that would have been dry a LONG time ago.




They are not being clear on Sylar's powers and he clearly has a few we don't know about. The "appear out of nowhere" feat was used in Ep 9 _Homecoming_ though.

As for Isaac's death - it's sort of jumbled - but Isaac has been dead 8-10 hours or so when Ando and Hiro show up the first time in Ep 21 - The Hard Part. It's about 36 hours later when they show up again in Ep 23.

That was a lot of blood. It had clearly congealed like jell-o, but as for whether or not it's should be bone dry in that time, I really don't know. It's not a stretch to say it's congealed but not dry.

FWIW, I'm guessing that it's starting to be a wee smelly a loft by that time though.   

Interestingly, the footsteps in the blood, do not appear to be visible when Hiro first appears in Isaac's loft in episode 2.

For that matter, the explosion in the initial timeline takes place in the daylight on November 8, whereas the explosion in Ep 23 takes place on Nov 7 or posssibly November 8 in the early AM when it's still dark.


----------



## Brown Jenkin (May 23, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> For that matter, the explosion in the initial timeline takes place in the daylight on November 8, whereas the explosion in Ep 23 takes place on Nov 7 or posssibly November 8 in the early AM when it's still dark.




So New York is not safe yet. Sylar still has several hours to blow himself up and maintain Isacc's and Hiro's timeline. 

I noticed that too but I am attributing that to Claire's statement that the future can be changed.


----------



## Alzrius (May 23, 2007)

Nobody else has mentioned it yet, so I'll point out that the next (last?) online comic is out: part two of The Death of Hana Gittelman. 

Personally, I sort of expected this ending, but I find it very intriguing nonetheless. It also gives a tiny bit of insight as to what happened to Micha, Nikki, and D. L. after the season finale. Great stuff!


----------



## WayneLigon (May 23, 2007)

BraveSirRobin said:
			
		

> I am fine with character growth instead of action, but then it needs to be sensible.  If there is no action and the character growth is extremely flawed then you are left unsatisfied, as I am.




No, you just need to adjust what you think of as reasonable and normal, human actions instead of thinking everyone behaves like an omniscient viewpoint metagame-capable RPG player who has time to sit back and consider all logical alternatives to a problem while in a comfortable, non-threatening environment.


----------



## Glyfair (May 23, 2007)

Sir Brennen said:
			
		

> Per some casting news for next season, it looks like Nathan will be back. But perhaps after Peter's proximity to Niki, Nathan will become Peter's "Jessica".




Well, given the subject ("Generations") and with Hiro about it's quite easy to have regular appearances by "dead" characters.  Hiro can time travel, plus the story might unfold in a different time period starting before the events in this series.  Lastly, they might just have generous flashback sequences.



			
				Arnwyn said:
			
		

> - Also glad that the "future can't be changed" people were proven to be out-to-lunch. I should say so.



Yeah.  I would be curious to see the various guesses about the timeline.  

Clearly saving the cheerleader mattered, because Hiro said Sylar regenerated when he stabbed him.  That didn't happen this time (at least Hiro didn't witness it).  On the other hand, she was alive in the future sequence.  Then again, it was after she was saved.  Perhaps the thing that changed the future again was Ando learning he would die (and thus Hiro making sure he wasn't around for the finale).


----------



## Steel_Wind (May 23, 2007)

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> So New York is not safe yet. Sylar still has several hours to blow himself up and maintain Isacc's and Hiro's timeline.
> 
> I noticed that too but I am attributing that to Claire's statement that the future can be changed.




I would agree. Plus, Sylar does not have Clarie's power. I'm not so sure he would be convinced that he could survive such an explosion (would YOU think you could survive it?). 

The future was changed in dribs and drabs and in small parts and in large. The future timeline simply never happened-  and never will.

P.S.: The Kensei in the helmet sure looked like George Takei to me!


----------



## John Crichton (May 23, 2007)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> No, you just need to adjust what you think of as reasonable and normal, human actions instead of thinking everyone behaves like an omniscient viewpoint metagame-capable RPG player who has time to sit back and consider all logical alternatives to a problem while in a comfortable, non-threatening environment.



Where's my rep button?


----------



## Grog (May 23, 2007)

I was really disappointed. Yes, I know this show is more about character development than big fight scenes, but even so, they were building up to this single, climactic fight scene for the entire season and it was just *lame*. Sylar does some telekinesis, Niki hits him once with a parking meter, Peter punches him a few times, Sylar gets the upper hand again, then Hiro stabs him. That's it. The whole thing lasted, what, sixty seconds?

It was a huge letdown.

And a lot of the dialogue was lame, too. Did they really need to hit us over the head with "all you need is love?" It's fine to have that as a theme, but did they really need to be so damned obvious about it?


----------



## Vanuslux (May 23, 2007)

I found it fairly disappointing...enough to make me question whether I want to bother investing serious enthusiasm for the next season.  Heroes has been the one and only TV show this season that I actually went out of my way to watch, but now that I realize how little payoff we're going to be given for the oft slow, oft highly repetitive build-up.  There's a lot to love about the show, but it's a love that I'm starting to feel isn't going to go the distance.


----------



## Silver Moon (May 23, 2007)

I found the last several episodes to be very Watchmen-esque.


----------



## satori01 (May 23, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> I would agree. Plus, Sylar does not have Clarie's power. I'm not so sure he would be convinced that he could survive such an explosion (would YOU think you could survive it?).




Given what we know of Sylar's power, would he not know that he could survive his own blast?
The actor that plays Nathan is pretty good, does a good job of portraying a conflicted man.
It would be a shame to see him go.
Especially when you compare to the actor that plays DL.  I like the character of DL, but the actor sometimes is so overblown, no subtlety.


----------



## Taelorn76 (May 23, 2007)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> He certainly somehow holds people up off the ground while slicing their heads open. That seems like more than one at a time.




That to me is just different uses of TK. TK to hold them up and a TK knife to slice them open.


----------



## DonTadow (May 23, 2007)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> No, you just need to adjust what you think of as reasonable and normal, human actions instead of thinking everyone behaves like an omniscient viewpoint metagame-capable RPG player who has time to sit back and consider all logical alternatives to a problem while in a comfortable, non-threatening environment.



Quoted for truth and to respond to the previous 3 quotes. 

They've always tried to go to a "real" angle with this.  Sure we could have had an x-men blow out fight, but the show would have leaned farther along the comicbook angle than the realistic powers angle they are going for. 

Thiswas their first time any of them (outside of nicki) had attacked or fought with their powers.  It was quirky and pretty quick.  

(of course for everyone wishing this was d and d, it was 2 minutes, thats 20 rounds, )


----------



## F5 (May 23, 2007)

An observation relating to the Peter-is-dumb-and-should-have-fought-better argument:

I think that was one of the points of the 5 Years Gone story: we get to see a competent, kick-ass Peter Petrelli go to town with Future-Hiro.  I think that was their way of saying "yeah, we know what this guy is capable of, he's just not there yet".  We see future peter use several powers at once (he moves a beer mug with TK while invisible, for example).  He makes decisive tactical choices in mid-combat, actually has a plan of action, and wears badass black clothes.  This was all done to contrast his current persona, as a way for the writers to say "we're not stupid, we're writing him this way on purpose...".

I also think that Peter is not dead, though Nathan probably is.  And I think we still see Future Peter come about.  Instead of being guilty about blowing up NY City, he's guilty about blowing up his brother.  It still gives him the edge his character needs to get his act together, but without, y'know...blowing up NY City.

In an unrelated tangent, I was talking about 5 Years Gone, and I referred to Matt's future self as "Dark Parkman".  That had such a great ring to it, I pledged to use it whenever possible.  Dark Parkman...kind of like Dark Phoenix, only with a beer-belly.  

Eh.  It made me laugh, anyway...


----------



## Daxz (May 23, 2007)

What if Sylar's mysterious power is to be able to "shapechange" into a roach?


----------



## Hand of Evil (May 23, 2007)

On the Peter note, I think they could have established Peter overloading as he re-aborbed everyone's powers and being unable to access them, all those of Sylar and the group, all it would have taken was Noah (or someone else) saying something.


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 23, 2007)

Grog said:
			
		

> I was really disappointed. Yes, I know this show is more about character development than big fight scenes, but even so, they were building up to this single, climactic fight scene for the entire season and it was just *lame*. Sylar does some telekinesis, Niki hits him once with a parking meter, Peter punches him a few times, Sylar gets the upper hand again, then Hiro stabs him. That's it. The whole thing lasted, what, sixty seconds?



It's what D&D combat would look like from the outside probably. Or one of the old turnbased RPG combat games like FF.
Sylar wins init, uses Force Choke. Peter loses an action, Parkman shoots, Sylar uses a Swift Action to rebuff, Nikki hits, it's Sylars turn now...





> And a lot of the dialogue was lame, too. Did they really need to hit us over the head with "all you need is love?" It's fine to have that as a theme, but did they really need to be so damned obvious about it?




That's how the show is really, or at least the latter half of the season. Frankly the entire show was repetitive. Nikki's strength, Peter & Hiro's confidence...

For those that say we're missing the fact these are real people that can't see everything, the problem is twofold;
1) the same development occured over and over, yet they never gained the competence they needed. Sylar was defeated by his own incompetence, not by any ability of theirs.
2) None of this was Fight or Flight reflexes. They walked up, smacked him, then stood there debating. Peter was being choked and his reflex was to whine about maybe losing. Parkman gets shot and everyone stands around to wait their turns.


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 23, 2007)

Daxz said:
			
		

> What if Sylar's mysterious power is to be able to "shapechange" into a roach?




I still think the roachs are not a power of Sylar's, but of someone else. The roach woke him up in captivity, the roachs dragged him off to the sewers.

I think he'll be back for second season without any of his powers. I think (and hope) they could build him into a good villain that way, if he can't just TK folks around and slice open heads.


----------



## Dire Bare (May 23, 2007)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> Nobody else has mentioned it yet, so I'll point out that the next (last?) online comic is out: part two of The Death of Hana Gittelman.
> 
> Personally, I sort of expected this ending, but I find it very intriguing nonetheless. It also gives a tiny bit of insight as to what happened to Micha, Nikki, and D. L. after the season finale. Great stuff!




Yeah, ah . . . they went home . . .

Heh, just teasing . . . but it was interesting to see that Micah's new online friend is Wireless.

Not a surprising end to the storyling, but a fun and interesting one!


----------



## Hand of Evil (May 23, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> I still think the roachs are not a power of Sylar's, but of someone else. The roach woke him up in captivity, the roachs dragged him off to the sewers.
> 
> I think he'll be back for second season without any of his powers. I think (and hope) they could build him into a good villain that way, if he can't just TK folks around and slice open heads.



OR the roaches were the next big bad's tools.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 23, 2007)

I liked this episode, even if it might have lacked the spectactular explosions and combat scenes one might have excpected.

The Heroes aren't Superheroes yet. (I am totally loving the idea of adapting a d20 Modern game set in the Heroes world. Only new FX rules for superpowers are needed)

But to the actual show:
- I really liked the meeting of Molly & Micah. Somehow the few words they exchanged made them feel "real",and it looked as if they could become good friends. (Hope they stay in the show)

- I wonder if Sylar maybe just lost all his acquired powers. Would be "fun" if he had to rely on his hands and a knife again to get his superpowers (because how long will it take him to get another Hero with telekinesis or his inborn laser). Unfortunately that would mean losing all the cool powers he already displayed but didn't use often (melting, for example)

- When did Hiro drop off Ando? I still remember the first episodes where the police called Ando and he reported they hadn't seen him in weeks, which is suprising, since in all other timelines we saw, Ando was always with Hiro. Maybe Hiro dropped Ando off at the time they originally flew into the US, so that Ando could avoid trouble at work (I somehow doubt it's easy to take two or three weeks off on such a short notice in a Japenese company)


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (May 23, 2007)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> - When did Hiro drop off Ando? I still remember the first episodes where the police called Ando and he reported they hadn't seen him in weeks, which is suprising, since in all other timelines we saw, Ando was always with Hiro. Maybe Hiro dropped Ando off at the time they originally flew into the US, so that Ando could avoid trouble at work (I somehow doubt it's easy to take two or three weeks off on such a short notice in a Japenese company)




Though, because Hiro's dad owns the company, Ando is unlikely to get in much trouble.


----------



## Mistwell (May 23, 2007)

I loved this episode, and found it to be a very satisfactory ending to this first season.  Indeed, it's hard for me to even believe this has been just one single season, as so much has been answered in the season relative to other shows that pose a lot of questions.


----------



## BraveSirRobin (May 23, 2007)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> No, you just need to adjust what you think of as reasonable and normal, human actions instead of thinking everyone behaves like an omniscient viewpoint metagame-capable RPG player who has time to sit back and consider all logical alternatives to a problem while in a comfortable, non-threatening environment.




Normal, human actions?

Do you need to be an omniscient viewpoint metagame-capable RPG player for someone to actually double check and make sure that Sylar is dead?  Heck there are dozens of people standing around, ambulances, the heores themselves and not a single one of them thought to go check on the body?  That isn't metagame thought.  It is just plain stupid.  Nobody knew what all of Sylar's powers were.  They also knew that some heroes had healing powers.  It isn't even remotely logical that every single one of them would automatically assume that he died.

I won't even get into the whole Nathan unecessary suicide.  I would love to hear a SIMPLE reason for that one based on NORMAL, HUMAN actions.


----------



## BraveSirRobin (May 23, 2007)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> - I wonder if Sylar maybe just lost all his acquired powers. Would be "fun" if he had to rely on his hands and a knife again to get his superpowers (because how long will it take him to get another Hero with telekinesis or his inborn laser). Unfortunately that would mean losing all the cool powers he already displayed but didn't use often (melting, for example)





I was hoping for the same thing if Sylar has to be back next season.


----------



## BraveSirRobin (May 23, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> For those that say we're missing the fact these are real people that can't see everything, the problem is twofold;
> 1) the same development occured over and over, yet they never gained the competence they needed. Sylar was defeated by his own incompetence, not by any ability of theirs.
> 2) None of this was Fight or Flight reflexes. They walked up, smacked him, then stood there debating. Peter was being choked and his reflex was to whine about maybe losing. Parkman gets shot and everyone stands around to wait their turns.




Also don't forget how cocky Parkman was about being able to take down Sylar when he was talking with Noah.  Does Noah try to stop him?  Explain to him how powerful Sylar is?  Nope.  Making it even worse is the fact that Parkman had already tried to shoot Sylar once before in episode 3.  Sylar goes down and then gets right back up again.  Did he think he had better bullets this time?


----------



## BraveSirRobin (May 23, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> Quoted for truth and to respond to the previous 3 quotes.
> 
> They've always tried to go to a "real" angle with this.  Sure we could have had an x-men blow out fight, but the show would have leaned farther along the comicbook angle than the realistic powers angle they are going for.
> 
> ...




Parkman, a trained police officer, had already fought Sylar once before.  The first time he shot Sylar and was unable to kill him.  Why he thought he would have greater success this time is a mystery.

Mohinder had also fought Sylar and actually managed to take him prisoner, until Sylar outwitted him and turned the tables.  Mohinder only escaped because of the bumbling Peter's death was able to distract Sylar long enough for him to bash him over the head. 

This was Peter's third time fighting Sylar.  The first time was when he first saved Clair.  The second time he at least managed to go invisible.  The third time, he pushed aside help from others in order to punch Sylar.  

This was also Hiro's third time fighting Sylar.  He knew how dangerous Sylar was and also knew the prophecies that Sylar would survive being stabbed.  And yet didn't bother to check.  This one I can understand since he was immediately distracted by Peter's situation.

Noah had numerous encounters with Sylar.  He knew exactly how dangerous Sylar was and how many times he could escape.  Not even he bothered to check?

The only real part of their actions was their real stupidity.


----------



## sniffles (May 23, 2007)

BraveSirRobin said:
			
		

> This isn't monday morning quarterbacking either, it stupidity of their actions were clear as they were happening.



Clear *to you*. But I would still contend that if you were there, in that situation, and you were one of those people and not yourself with your personal knowledge and experience, you might do exactly what they did.


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 23, 2007)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> OR the roaches were the next big bad's tools.




See Post 124 above.


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 23, 2007)

sniffles said:
			
		

> Clear *to you*. But I would still contend that if you were there, in that situation, and you were one of those people and not yourself with your personal knowledge and experience, you might do exactly what they did.




I don't know, Bennet at least seems to be the type to make sure he's killed a guy. Hiro was removed, Peter too, Claire, Micah, Molly, sure. Mohinder though, he REALLY should have done some body searching, if only because the DNA would be useful.


Anyway, for the missing body, I assume that a couple of them DID verify Sylar's death and then went on tending to the wounded. The optimum ending would have been Parkman telling FBI chick "I got Sylar" and she goes over and looks at the blood trail, then screams "awww F@*%!".

But, that's just me.


----------



## Mistwell (May 23, 2007)

BraveSirRobin said:
			
		

> Normal, human actions?




Yes.



> Do you need to be an omniscient viewpoint metagame-capable RPG player for someone to actually double check and make sure that Sylar is dead?  Heck there are dozens of people standing around, ambulances, the heores themselves and not a single one of them thought to go check on the body?  That isn't metagame thought.  It is just plain stupid.  Nobody knew what all of Sylar's powers were.  They also knew that some heroes had healing powers.  It isn't even remotely logical that every single one of them would automatically assume that he died.




I think it is a normal human reaction to assume someone is dead when they get run through with a sword, fall unmoving to the ground, and then a friggen nuclear bomb goes off in the air distracting you and everyone for thousands of miles.  I know I wouldn't have been bothered to check the body in those few minutes, and despite your claims to the contrary I doubt you would either.  It sure seemed like a normal human reaction to just let the body lay where it was until the medical guys came there to do whatever it is they do with corpses.



> I won't even get into the whole Nathan unecessary suicide.  I would love to hear a SIMPLE reason for that one based on NORMAL, HUMAN actions.




I think it was obvious Peter felt incapable of doing anything at that moment other than standing there and exploding.  That is why he asked Claire to shoot him.  Either his powers work such that only one can be on at a given time, or he has a limited amount of energy to devote to powers in general and all was being eaten up in a feedback loop with Ted's power, or he had a normal human brain freeze reaction to suddenly becoming out of control radioactive and paniced, or any of a number of reasonable explanations.  Whatever the explanation, he clearly thought all along that he was not able to get out of there under his own power, and needed an outside third party to help him (either by shooting him, or flying him away).

And, as a personal comment, I think you need to relax.  You sound...wound up.


----------



## Dire Bare (May 23, 2007)

BraveSirRobin said:
			
		

> Parkman, a trained police officer, had already fought Sylar once before.  The first time he shot Sylar and was unable to kill him.  Why he thought he would have greater success this time is a mystery.
> 
> Mohinder had also fought Sylar and actually managed to take him prisoner, until Sylar outwitted him and turned the tables.  Mohinder only escaped because of the bumbling Peter's death was able to distract Sylar long enough for him to bash him over the head.
> 
> ...




Sorry, but you guys are still armchair quarterbacking the characters.

Everybody saw Hiro run Sylar through with a sword and then Sylar drops to the ground, dead or dying.  With all else that is going on, dying Parkman, families reuniting, huge bomb going off in the atmosphere . . . I'm okay with nobody thinking, "That Sylar is one scary dude, and it wouldn't surprise me if he's not really dead."  Heck, if I was there and thought Sylar might be still alive, I wouldn't go anywhere NEAR him!!

Parkman is a trained police officer.  He's also shown repeatedly a major personality flaw, he's rash and emotional and doesn't always do the "wise" thing.  Just going after Sylar was a stupid move, as Bennett tried to tell him.

Mohinder wasn't there to "fight" Sylar, he was there to ESCAPE from Sylar.  He was also distracted by the shot Parkman.

Peter is not a fighter.  He is there to confront Sylar, but certainly doesn't go about it the best way.  Besides, the only reason why Peter DIDN'T kill Sylar himself is he started to lose control of "the bomb".  And knowing the prophecies, Peter was understandably a little freaked out about this.

And you're complaining about Hiro not checking if Sylar was dead?  Hiro is in medieval Japan at this point.  Hard to check.

Bennett has a pretty good idea of what powers Sylar has.  He knows regen (Claire's powers) isn't one of them.  He just saw the dude run through with a sword.  He's focused on his daughter, the only thing that matters to him anymore.  While he can be a frighteningly efficient dude, he is a man who's life has been turned upside down and he's not up to his old super spy self.

Come on people, these guys aren't the Justice League, they are just regular folks given crazy powers that they haven't quite figured out what to do with yet.

Now if only someone in the group had been dorky D&D playing, comic book reading dude (or dudette) like us, Sylar would've been history long ago.  Actually, probably not.

The only problem I had is that I too wanted to see more WHAM! BANG! action between Peter and Sylar.  I feel how things went down fit well into the story, but would've liked the cool fight to please the 14-year-old boy inside me.


----------



## DonTadow (May 23, 2007)

BraveSirRobin said:
			
		

> Parkman, a trained police officer, had already fought Sylar once before.  The first time he shot Sylar and was unable to kill him.  Why he thought he would have greater success this time is a mystery.
> 
> Mohinder had also fought Sylar and actually managed to take him prisoner, until Sylar outwitted him and turned the tables.  Mohinder only escaped because of the bumbling Peter's death was able to distract Sylar long enough for him to bash him over the head.
> 
> ...



We actually don't know if someone checked on the body. I'm sure that someone did, they didn't need to rehash this thing. Sylar was dead. Somehow he has a power that can evade that.  WE (the omniscient audience know this) but no one else does. Noah could know but with what was going on why was he thinking about that. Sylar was stabbed straight through with a sword. Its a cliffhanger, how did sylar get away....

Peter has faced sylar twice, this time being the actual fight, the last time being an unexpectd confrontation.


----------



## BraveSirRobin (May 23, 2007)

sniffles said:
			
		

> Clear *to you*. But I would still contend that if you were there, in that situation, and you were one of those people and not yourself with your personal knowledge and experience, you might do exactly what they did.




Clear to many others as well.  There are more then a few that had a similar thought process.  

And lets not forget, these are not actual people reacting to actual situations.  I am not blaming someone that couldn't perform under a pressure situation.  I am criticizing the writer's thinking of how the characters would react to the situation.  They are in no different boat then I am when deciding how the charachter would react.  Their decisions are not above criticism by any means.


----------



## BraveSirRobin (May 23, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Anyway, for the missing body, I assume that a couple of them DID verify Sylar's death and then went on tending to the wounded. The optimum ending would have been Parkman telling FBI chick "I got Sylar" and she goes over and looks at the blood trail, then screams "awww F@*%!".
> 
> But, that's just me.




I would have been much more satisified with it if they were would have added the three second snipet you described above.


----------



## BraveSirRobin (May 23, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> I think it is a normal human reaction to assume someone is dead when they get run through with a sword, fall unmoving to the ground, and then a friggen nuclear bomb goes off in the air distracting you and everyone for thousands of miles.  I know I wouldn't have been bothered to check the body in those few minutes, and despite your claims to the contrary I doubt you would either.  It sure seemed like a normal human reaction to just let the body lay where it was until the medical guys came there to do whatever it is they do with corpses.




In that particular moment sure.  I can buy that.  In the time it took for paramedics to called and arrive, treat parkman, and put him in the ambulance, and still nobody went to check on him?

Normal human reaction was for Nikky to check on DL despite being shot.  Normal human reaction was for Mohinder to check on Parkman despite being shot six times.  And yet normal human reaction is to not check on the suprepowerful bad guy that had been stabbed.  Sorry not buying it.



> I think it was obvious Peter felt incapable of doing anything at that moment other than standing there and exploding.  That is why he asked Claire to shoot him.  Either his powers work such that only one can be on at a given time, or he has a limited amount of energy to devote to powers in general and all was being eaten up in a feedback loop with Ted's power, or he had a normal human brain freeze reaction to suddenly becoming out of control radioactive and paniced, or any of a number of reasonable explanations.  Whatever the explanation, he clearly thought all along that he was not able to get out of there under his own power, and needed an outside third party to help him (either by shooting him, or flying him away).




Sure, I understand that.  I don't have a problem with that.  I do have a problem with why Nathan felt he needed to commit suicide to help his brother rather then do the most logical action, which they had talked about and planned for and would result in nobody being killed.



> And, as a personal comment, I think you need to relax.  You sound...wound up.




You know what?  You are right.  I have been awfully stressed lately and is probably why I am so disappointed by the show.  I was really looking forward to a great finale to what has been my favorite show of the year.  It was easily the worst episode of the year and really left me angry.  The good news is I am off for drinks in an hour, so I will hopefully be feeling better soon.


----------



## BraveSirRobin (May 23, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> We actually don't know if someone checked on the body. I'm sure that someone did, they didn't need to rehash this thing. Sylar was dead. Somehow he has a power that can evade that.  WE (the omniscient audience know this) but no one else does. Noah could know but with what was going on why was he thinking about that. Sylar was stabbed straight through with a sword. Its a cliffhanger, how did sylar get away....
> 
> Peter has faced sylar twice, this time being the actual fight, the last time being an unexpectd confrontation.




Since everyone is insistent on comparing it to D&D, I will add my own comparison.  Sylar escaping felt like railroading of the worst kind to me.  The DM didn't want his pet NPC villan to die yet and created the most unlikely of senarios to pull it off.  

As I mentioned previously, I would have been much happier if they added the three second cut scene of someone going to check on the body and seeing it has suddenly disappeared.


----------



## Mallus (May 23, 2007)

BraveSirRobin said:
			
		

> I do have a problem with why Nathan felt he needed to commit suicide to help his brother rather then do the most logical action, which they had talked about and planned for and would result in nobody being killed.



Nathan felt the need to commit suicide because he felt guilty, for almost letting his brother die to further his political career.



> The good news is I am off for drinks in an hour, so I will hopefully be feeling better soon.



Cheers!


----------



## Randolpho (May 23, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> I still think the roachs are not a power of Sylar's, but of someone else. The roach woke him up in captivity, the roachs dragged him off to the sewers.
> 
> I think he'll be back for second season without any of his powers. I think (and hope) they could build him into a good villain that way, if he can't just TK folks around and slice open heads.





			
				Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> OR the roaches were the next big bad's tools.




I think you two are onto something, and I agree. 

I predict that it will turn out that Sylar is just BBEG's minion in season two. The roaches are definitely connected to him in some way; perhaps he has some form of control over them and uses them to communicate with Sylar, etc. 

Also, given Sylar's particular remark to Peter (IIRC it was something along the lines of "see, it turns out *I'm* the hero and you're the villain), his visit with moms, and a certain nagging feeling, I think Sylar will end up "converting" mid-season, telling the heroes all about the new mystery BBEG and how to defeat him/her.


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 23, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> I think it is a normal human reaction to assume someone is dead when they get run through with a sword, fall unmoving to the ground, and then a friggen nuclear bomb goes off in the air distracting you and everyone for thousands of miles.




As previously mentioned in this thread, everyone in NY had gone on vacation and the city was actually deserted. 

That said, these are not normal humans, half of them went there expecting a nuclear blast, all of them went there planning murder of some sort (okay, not Mohinder & the kids, but still), quite a few of them have had someone they love killed by Sylar when they thought he was dead.




> I know I wouldn't have been bothered to check the body in those few minutes, and despite your claims to the contrary I doubt you would either.  It sure seemed like a normal human reaction to just let the body lay where it was until the medical guys came there to do whatever it is they do with corpses.




The thing isn't so much that they didn't check the body right away, the thing is that they never checked it. We don't know when it disappeared, we only know that it did, at some point before Parkman was loaded into the ambulance.

It was a Plot Device, pure and simple, a dramatic moment for the audience to wonder about Sylar and how he escaped.





> I think it was obvious Peter felt incapable of doing anything at that moment other than standing there and exploding.  That is why he asked Claire to shoot him.  Either his powers work such that only one can be on at a given time, or he has a limited amount of energy to devote to powers in general and all was being eaten up in a feedback loop with Ted's power, or he had a normal human brain freeze reaction to suddenly becoming out of control radioactive and paniced, or any of a number of reasonable explanations.  Whatever the explanation, he clearly thought all along that he was not able to get out of there under his own power, and needed an outside third party to help him (either by shooting him, or flying him away).




See, if he had gotten Ted's powers right away, that'd be something with me. Instead, he got Ted's powers, almost lost control then said "oh, wait, I'm better". Then he started losing control again and passed out in the street, then finally, at the climax, he starts losing control and his response? The moment he has been training for since his first prophetic dream?

He gives the same hopeless response he's been giving us all season.

IMO, his character has diversified, but hasn't grown at all really. At least Claire came to grips with being Ms Abbie Normal, Peter still had the same insecurities as he did at the start. He wanted to be special, and when he IS special, he still just wanders around all goofballish.


----------



## Grog (May 23, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> It's what D&D combat would look like from the outside probably. Or one of the old turnbased RPG combat games like FF.
> Sylar wins init, uses Force Choke. Peter loses an action, Parkman shoots, Sylar uses a Swift Action to rebuff, Nikki hits, it's Sylars turn now...




Maybe so, but I wasn't playing D&D. I was watching a TV show. And when I'm watching a TV show, and a fight has this much buildup going into it, I expect to see something a bit more visually appealing than what was shown.

What's the tagline of Heroes? "Ordinary people discovering extraordinary abilities."

There was nothing extraordinary about the fight. It was all very dull and pedestrian.


----------



## LightPhoenix (May 23, 2007)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> I didn't love it -- I couldn't figure out why Peter couldn't just fly away by himself, and I couldn't figure out how Sylar allowed himself to get stabbed.  And I didn't really feel the emotions I was probably supposed to feel.




I have a couple theories.  It could really be any combination of:

A) Peter has never been shown to use more than one power at once.  This suggests, but is not definitive, of Peter only being able to use one at once.

B) Peter reached his limit on powers, and was stuck with Ted's radioactivity and no way to control it.  Contrast with Sylar, whose Way Things Work ability lets him know how to use powers.

C) Peter was freaking out, and couldn't concentrate enough to change powers, fly away, or what have you.

D) Peter was focusing on not blowing up.



			
				hafrogman said:
			
		

> Can he? I can't specifically recall any situation where he has. I'm not saying this is wrong, but I'm curious as to where we've seen it. Most of the time he just uses a lot of TK. Grab Peter, TK. Shoot Matt, TK. Fling Hiro, TK.




In the episode about him, he moves the snowglobes and creates snow at the same time.


----------



## occam (May 23, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> I have never seen the streets of NYC so empty.




No kidding! I was wondering about that, too.


----------



## occam (May 23, 2007)

F5 said:
			
		

> An observation relating to the Peter-is-dumb-and-should-have-fought-better argument:
> 
> I think that was one of the points of the 5 Years Gone story: we get to see a competent, kick-ass Peter Petrelli go to town with Future-Hiro.  I think that was their way of saying "yeah, we know what this guy is capable of, he's just not there yet".  We see future peter use several powers at once (he moves a beer mug with TK while invisible, for example).  He makes decisive tactical choices in mid-combat, actually has a plan of action, and wears badass black clothes.  This was all done to contrast his current persona, as a way for the writers to say "we're not stupid, we're writing him this way on purpose...".




QFT!


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## Vocenoctum (May 23, 2007)

Grog said:
			
		

> Maybe so, but I wasn't playing D&D. I was watching a TV show. And when I'm watching a TV show, and a fight has this much buildup going into it, I expect to see something a bit more visually appealing than what was shown.
> 
> What's the tagline of Heroes? "Ordinary people discovering extraordinary abilities."
> 
> There was nothing extraordinary about the fight. It was all very dull and pedestrian.




Right, see, I didn't mean "this is great, it would be just like D&D combat!" I meant "it was stilted and badly paced, everyone acted in turn like some kind of turn-based combat". So, we agree.


----------



## occam (May 23, 2007)

BraveSirRobin said:
			
		

> Sure, I understand that.  I don't have a problem with that.  I do have a problem with why Nathan felt he needed to commit suicide to help his brother rather then do the most logical action, which they had talked about and planned for and would result in nobody being killed.




You don't know that, and I don't think they did, either. Shooting Peter could've very well set him off right then and there. Much safer to get him out of the way.


----------



## occam (May 23, 2007)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> So, I wonder how future Hiro will react?  I mean, in his world, Peter is alive.  Will future Hiro be in an alternate timeline where Peter is still alive, or will the future be changed and the future Hiro we know (as well as the future we've seen) will be totally different?




There can be only one! Timeline, that is. The future that we saw in "Five Years Gone" is, well, gone.


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## drothgery (May 23, 2007)

Dire Bare said:
			
		

> Now if only someone in the group had been dorky D&D playing, comic book reading dude (or dudette) like us, Sylar would've been history long ago.  Actually, probably not.




The real problem is that Hiro ought to know this stuff; he *has* read more than his share of comics and played more than his share of video games. Maybe they'll just need to wait for Micah to grow up .


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## Pseudonym (May 24, 2007)

drothgery said:
			
		

> The real problem is that Hiro ought to know this stuff; he *has* read more than his share of comics and played more than his share of video games. Maybe they'll just need to wait for Micah to grow up .





True, but how many dorks have talked tough on the internet about what they would do to that bully if they had the chance but froze up or never followed through in reality?

I thought Hiro's initial confrontation with Sylar was great because it was real, in the sense that a guy with a head full of fantasy who knows exactly what his favorite super hero would do or who can pull of that lethal combo on his Xbox, totally choked when the actual confrontation happened.


----------



## Wycen (May 24, 2007)

I was trying to put elements of the show into Champions terms while reading this thread.  Champions only because it is my favorite superhero system.  I'm not sure it would work well for the show based on the characters being 1 power only or competent normals.  Plus Peter and Sylar would have vastly more points.

In Hero system phases that battle would have taken a few hours, but probably ended up only being 2 rounds of time.


----------



## Pseudonym (May 24, 2007)

Wycen said:
			
		

> I was trying to put elements of the show into Champions terms while reading this thread.  Champions only because it is my favorite superhero system.




I do the same, but with M&M.


----------



## BraveSirRobin (May 24, 2007)

occam said:
			
		

> You don't know that, and I don't think they did, either. Shooting Peter could've very well set him off right then and there. Much safer to get him out of the way.




I don't know what?  What would actually happen?  Sure.  Who knows what was actually happen.  However, we DO know what THEY thought would happen.  They stated it repeatedly.  They decided that, since Peter could easily survive it, Claire would shoot him if he started to go nuclear.  That was the plan.  They certainly seemed to believe in it.  Claire knew Peter had her powers and she certainly understood her own power.  Pretty clear.  The justification of Nathan's actions is where the baseless speculation starts coming into play.


----------



## Grog (May 24, 2007)

BraveSirRobin said:
			
		

> I don't know what?  What would actually happen?  Sure.  Who knows what was actually happen.  However, we DO know what THEY thought would happen.  They stated it repeatedly.  They decided that, since Peter could easily survive it, Claire would shoot him if he started to go nuclear.  That was the plan.  They certainly seemed to believe in it.  Claire knew Peter had her powers and she certainly understood her own power.  Pretty clear.  The justification of Nathan's actions is where the baseless speculation starts coming into play.




Oh, that reminds me of something else that annoyed me - Bennett and Claire _know_ that sedating Peter will stop him from blowing up (since it worked on Ted and it's the exact same power), yet neither of them thinks to bring along anything that could do that? Especially given that Bennett was just in what appeared to be at least a moderately well-stocked medical laboratory with a _doctor_?

I think they were veering dangerously close to an Idiot Plot, there.


----------



## TwistedBishop (May 24, 2007)

In regards to the "shooting Peter was the best plan" theory, why do people think he would have survived that?  

The two previous cases of the regeneration power being halted were a stick and a piece of glass at a certain point in the brain.  If you shoot someone in the head, I'm pretty sure the bullet doesn't lodge neatly in a spot to be extracted later.  Most likely Peter's brains would have been blown out and he'd never be able to regenerate back to life.  

Both characters seemed to understand this, given how seriously they were taking the situation.


----------



## Hand of Evil (May 24, 2007)

TwistedBishop said:
			
		

> In regards to the "shooting Peter was the best plan" theory, why do people think he would have survived that?



I think he thought he would not, he was willing to die to stop from blowing up.  The best plan was Peter dead, IF he could not control his power.


----------



## Taelorn76 (May 24, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> I think it is a normal human reaction to assume someone is dead when they get run through with a sword, fall unmoving to the ground, and then a friggen nuclear bomb goes off in the air distracting you and everyone for thousands of miles.  I know I wouldn't have been bothered to check the body in those few minutes, and despite your claims to the contrary I doubt you would either.  It sure seemed like a normal human reaction to just let the body lay where it was until the medical guys came there to do whatever it is they do with corpses.





What bothered me was not that they went and double checked the body or whether some one took an extra shot just to make sure. What bothers me is that no one made mention that his body was missing. They was a decent amount of time between the bomb going off and the paramedics arriving for some one to notice that his body was missing. Thats my point.


----------



## DonTadow (May 24, 2007)

BraveSirRobin said:
			
		

> Since everyone is insistent on comparing it to D&D, I will add my own comparison.  Sylar escaping felt like railroading of the worst kind to me.  The DM didn't want his pet NPC villan to die yet and created the most unlikely of senarios to pull it off.
> 
> As I mentioned previously, I would have been much happier if they added the three second cut scene of someone going to check on the body and seeing it has suddenly disappeared.



We're comparing the way you're looking at it is a d and d way and not a realistic way.  Sylar has had this power most of the season. He can fake his death somehow. We the viewer have seen him do that but none of the heroes have. In d and d terms we the players know that this guy has... regeneration (figuratively) but none of the pcs does. Even HG doesnot really know of the power.  I agree, an additional scene would have been nice but was not needed.  I don't mind a cliffhanger at the end of the season. 

Even still ,it might not have been sylar whom did it, it might have been  someone else, future sylar( possiblity) or even a hero or another team moving it.


----------



## Taelorn76 (May 24, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> We actually don't know if someone checked on the body. I'm sure that someone did, they didn't need to rehash this thing. Sylar was dead. Somehow he has a power that can evade that.  WE (the omniscient audience know this) but no one else does. Noah could know but with what was going on why was he thinking about that. Sylar was stabbed straight through with a sword. Its a cliffhanger, how did sylar get away....
> 
> Peter has faced sylar twice, this time being the actual fight, the last time being an unexpectd confrontation.




That is true someone may have checked on the body but it was not shown. I just remembered that Sylar was able to fake his death to facilitate his escape from Mr Bennett's facility.


----------



## Randolpho (May 24, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> Even still ,it might not have been sylar whom did it, it might have been  someone else, future sylar( possiblity) or even a hero or another team moving it.




Gasp! What if Sylar from 5 years in the future beat Peter then turned around and took Hiro's power? 

<Bob and George>I hate time travel!</Bob and George>


----------



## papastebu (May 24, 2007)

wolff96 said:
			
		

> When Ando entered Isaac's loft, he stumbled over something on the floor.  Looking down, he saw a lot of blood with no obvious source.
> 
> Later, Hiro entered the same apartment and stumbled over something on the floor.  When Hiro looked down, he saw a lot of blood with no obvious source.
> 
> We know Isaac was killed in that place, but the blood from that would have been dry a LONG time ago.




Did anyone else notice, in the episode where Sylar attempted Pete's and Mohinder's lives, how he was sort of bubbling into existence, just as Pete turned to face him?
I think that, just as with everybody else's powers he's absorbed/eaten, whatever, that he has a grasp on them immediately that the original owners might never achieve. He sees not only how to make them happen, but myriads of applications, as well. He is all about making things go together that don't otherwise work---he has other people's DNA inside him, and he's still healthy, at least physically, but he was just a different KIND of insane before---and having them function as part of a working whole.
This is the difference between his and Peter's powers, even though the upshot is similar. Peter is all about passion and reaction, while Sylar is all about cold logic and precision.
My point in all this is just this: Sylar uses Zane's power on himself, and waits until the time is right, then reconstitutes himself. The stuff that both Hiro and Ando slipped in wasn't Isaac's blood, but Sylar's melted body. Just an idea.


----------



## DonTadow (May 24, 2007)

papastebu said:
			
		

> Did anyone else notice, in the episode where Sylar attempted Pete's and Mohinder's lives, how he was sort of bubbling into existence, just as Pete turned to face him?
> I think that, just as with everybody else's powers he's absorbed/eaten, whatever, that he has a grasp on them immediately that the original owners might never achieve. He sees not only how to make them happen, but myriads of applications, as well. He is all about making things go together that don't otherwise work---he has other people's DNA inside him, and he's still healthy, at least physically, but he was just a different KIND of insane before---and having them function as part of a working whole.
> This is the difference between his and Peter's powers, even though the upshot is similar. Peter is all about passion and reaction, while Sylar is all about cold logic and precision.
> My point in all this is just this: Sylar uses Zane's power on himself, and waits until the time is right, then reconstitutes himself. The stuff that both Hiro and Ando slipped in wasn't Isaac's blood, but Sylar's melted body. Just an idea.



That's the best conclusion i've heard for sylar escaping and it makes sense. There wouldn't be any blood there after so long a death, not in that form.  And it would be like the heroes producers to forshadow how sylar gets away before it happens.


----------



## Crothian (May 24, 2007)

sniffles said:
			
		

> Clear *to you*. But I would still contend that if you were there, in that situation, and you were one of those people and not yourself with your personal knowledge and experience, you might do exactly what they did.




That's because that is the way it was written.  This ending had nothing to do with what was realistic or not.  It was only done to serve what the writers wanted to have happen to set up next season.  It's a TV show, not real life.  None of those characters has free will they do what the script calls for.


----------



## Grog (May 24, 2007)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> I think he thought he would not, he was willing to die to stop from blowing up.  The best plan was Peter dead, IF he could not control his power.




Actually, the best plan would have been to sedate him, since they knew from previous experience that that would work.


----------



## GoodKingJayIII (May 24, 2007)

Pseudonym said:
			
		

> That would just be a more nuanced use of the TK power.
> 
> When he was in his mother's apartment, he was making the snow globes fly around the room while freezing the water from the sprayer at the same time, if I recall correctly.




Yeah, I'm in agreement.  The head-slicing thing as its own separate power is, to me, a bit of a stretch.  I don't see why TK can only lift stuff; perfectly viable for cutting stuff as well, as far as I'm concerned.  He did it in the beginning of the episode when he destroyed the painting of Peter.

The ending was very anticlimactic, but I liked it.  I was disappointed by the whole "teleport in, run up to Sylar, stab him."  Not only did it look stupid, but it made very little sense.  Sylar's demonstrated himself to be much faster in the past.  Heck, not two minutes before hand he stopped a trio of bullets in mid-flight.  Why couldn't he toss some wimpy little Japanese dork with a sword?  Hiro should've popped in, shouted his name, and stabbed Sylar in the gut.  Or stopped time.  It's the only way that whole interaction makes sense to me.


----------



## BraveSirRobin (May 24, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> We're comparing the way you're looking at it is a d and d way and not a realistic way.  Sylar has had this power most of the season. He can fake his death somehow. We the viewer have seen him do that but none of the heroes have. In d and d terms we the players know that this guy has... regeneration (figuratively) but none of the pcs does. Even HG doesnot really know of the power.  I agree, an additional scene would have been nice but was not needed.  I don't mind a cliffhanger at the end of the season.
> 
> Even still ,it might not have been sylar whom did it, it might have been  someone else, future sylar( possiblity) or even a hero or another team moving it.




If you think I am looking at it from a D&D prespective then I have failed in voicing my complaints.  D&D is a small part of my life and is about the least likely prespective I would have in viewing a show.  As such let me try again.

I don't have a problem with the amount of action, although more would have been nice.  I don't have a problem with the specific actions that the Heroes took.  What I do have a problem with is the poor writing that left huge gaping holes of irrational behavior in the actions of the characters.  Having to come up with some speculative theory based on very little about why a character might have made a choice isn't a cliffhanger, its a deficiency in the writing.  Especially when those items could be easily addressed and we could be spending more time about the real cliffhangers.  Cliffhangers are about things that are going to happen, not trying to patch the gaps of logic in people's behavior.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 24, 2007)

Hey, I like the idea of Sylar melting himself. (But it doesn't exactly explain the traces of blood to the gully)

As someone else mentioned, Sylar and Peter are fundamentally different: 
Sylar is analytical. He understands how his powers work, and trains in their use (think of the scene where he is "playing" with his radiation powers on top of the building)
Peter is intuitive. He picks up a power and just uses them if the time feels right (except for nuclear blasting  ). It has a near casual quality to it when he uses a power (think of how he easily he turned invisible or how he took Nikkis strength.) 
I think you can see it even visually (and it might even indicate a fundamental difference between Peter and all others) - 
if Parkman reads other people's thought, he looks very focused and concentrated. Peter just picks them up. If Sylar uses a power, he is usually making gestures and focusing on what he is doing (think of his telekinesis and the "Force-Crush" movements he does).
But Peter is not always aware of the powers he has or how to use them.

If Sylar was in the position of the other heroes, he would probably have been a lot better prepared and would have ensured that the maniac brain-opener would be dead and not just appear dead. 

One of the main reasons why the other Heroes didn't check on Sylar might have been that they were all occupied with themselves. 
Parkman and DL effectively bind Nikki, Mohinder and the kids. Bennet might have been more concerned with his daughter or vice versa (he was injured). Nathan and Peter are dead or at least far away...
Still doesn't explain why they failed to show a scene where someone noticed that Sylar got away...


----------



## papastebu (May 24, 2007)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> Hey, I like the idea of Sylar melting himself. (But it doesn't exactly explain the traces of blood to the gully)
> 
> As someone else mentioned, Sylar and Peter are fundamentally different:
> Sylar is analytical. He understands how his powers work, and trains in their use (think of the scene where he is "playing" with his radiation powers on top of the building)
> ...



I think the blood MIGHT be explained by the godawful-huge dai-katana that was thrust through Sylar's abdomen. Just guessing, but maybe he can't melt what's no longer part of him? Maybe he can turn INTO a cockroach, and that's why they're all so interested in him?
That's it. He turned into a cockroach after dragging himself into the manhole.  If you look really closely, you can see the downsized---though proportionally, still gaping---sword wound in his thorax!  
But I digest digress.
I was, overall, quite happy about the whole show.
I knew that Nathan wouldn't give up on his brother because they were too close. I am exceptionally pleased with his turnaround. It took his long-lost daughter to snap him out of his idiot phase, but the real Nathan was there, finally. Flight, btw, is one of my all-time-favorite powers, and the scene where HRG and the Haitian had to eat his SUPERSONIC vapor-trail is, to date, my favorite of the season.
I totally get where the character of Peter Petrelli is at in that showdown scene. If I had a dollar for every time I got wishy-washy because I had too many things to think about at the same time, there'd be a big pile of money somewhere that I wasn't able to find, because I'd forgotten where I left it! Pete was freaked out, because the whole thing was going down just like he dreamed it. Everybody was there as in the dream, and he knew that his brother had to come save him, because that's what big brothers do, and Nathan, especially.
Granted, there are some fair-sized logic holes in the episode, but I didn't think about most of them until afterward, 'cuz I was having way too much fun.


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 24, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> We're comparing the way you're looking at it is a d and d way and not a realistic way.



The omniscient viewpoint has absolutely NOTHING to do with D&D, so I can't understand the phrasing at all.




> Sylar has had this power most of the season. He can fake his death somehow. We the viewer have seen him do that but none of the heroes have. In d and d terms we the players know that this guy has... regeneration (figuratively) but none of the pcs does.



Ah, so you're thinking in D&D, got it.
Mohinder was smashed against a ceiling because he underestimated Sylar, but I guess that doesn't count? Bennet doesn't hold any kind of grudge for Eve's death? Bennet doesn't remember being locked in a room when Sylar last was supposed to be dead?

Sylar hasn't faked his death much otherwise. I can see the roach having reawakened him from pseudodeath in containment, as an emissary of the Dark One, but I don't think Sylar has the power himself.





> Even HG doesnot really know of the power.  I agree, an additional scene would have been nice but was not needed.  I don't mind a cliffhanger at the end of the season.
> 
> Even still ,it might not have been sylar whom did it, it might have been  someone else, future sylar( possiblity) or even a hero or another team moving it.





I think a discovery (rather than a camera showing the audience) would have been a lot more efficient. Even a random paramedic saying "hey, wasn't there a body here before?" would have been a lot less bewildering.


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 24, 2007)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> If Sylar was in the position of the other heroes, he would probably have been a lot better prepared and would have ensured that the maniac brain-opener would be dead and not just appear dead.




I think that's my fundamental problem with the repetition of the season. The characters never learned/ advanced. They were still as badly organized at the end as they were at the start. There was no plan of attack, there was no coordination, they didn't share information. Bennet and Mohinder at the least should have a good idea of what powers he's got. Parkman's policy of "try the failed tactic again" seemed a bit pointless.


----------



## papastebu (May 24, 2007)

I wish they had done the "Where'd that body go?" thing as an intro to showing us that Sylar had slithered off somewhere.
I am glad we're gonna see him again. I hope we see the Petrelli brothers, too---sounds like a circus act, doesn't it? "The Flying Petrelli's".
I think Hiro popping out of here and now and popping back in when and where he did was fairly logical.
I wish Nathan had tried to convince Peter to fly away on his own, and Peter had responded with "I---I can't! I don't know why, I just can't!" or somesuch.
Claire is not a cop, so her not shooting someone that she is definitely thinking of as family is cool, expected, even.
Peter had what he needed from Nikki, and was prepared to use it, so he was right to tell her that her family needed her.
D.L. was facing a probable lingering doom.
Micah, as brave as he can be, is a kid watching his dad bleed out all over the sidewalk.
Molly is afraid of Sylar, and what could she do if not?
Parkman may be dead from his own bullets kinetically-reversed.
I still don't know how Claire found her way to that plaza, never having been there. Maybe Pete and she had discussed it, a la Peter's dream?
Sylar got the drop on Noah Bennet, pretty much, and at that point, Claire picked up his gun.
The only explanations I'm actually missing, in story, are the non-notice of Sylar's body's disappearance, and Claire actually finding the plaza, and the why of Nathan having to sacrifice himself.
The rest of it seems pretty tight, to me. Even geniuses make mistakes, sometimes. Why not the writers of the show?
Fallout from Peter could start a whole new rash of mutations.


----------



## papastebu (May 24, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> I think that's my fundamental problem with the repetition of the season. The characters never learned/ advanced. They were still as badly organized at the end as they were at the start. There was no plan of attack, there was no coordination, they didn't share information. Bennet and Mohinder at the least should have a good idea of what powers he's got. Parkman's policy of "try the failed tactic again" seemed a bit pointless.



Parkman's not sure that bullets don't do much to Sylar, is he? He's a cop, and Sylar's a bad guy, a serious bad guy who needs to die. For all of Matt's clairaudience, he thinks the same way as he always has, which is to say a man who knows how to use a gun, and knows that he can't doe so unless the situation warrants it.
And, not trying to be snarky at all, these aren't the X-Men. They haven't been trained in the use of their powers, team-based combat, or even working together---other than HRG's guidance when the three of them were busting out of captivity. They've hardly known each other, up 'til now,and some of them are meeting for the first time in that plaza---Peter and the Hawkins family, for example---and are in exceedingly stressful circumstances, to boot.
Another thing to remember, all of the injuries occur from Sylar's puissance, not from anyone else's incompetence.
They's all jus' folks, ya know?   With awesome cosmic power, sure, but just people.


----------



## sniffles (May 24, 2007)

BraveSirRobin said:
			
		

> Clear to many others as well.  There are more then a few that had a similar thought process.
> 
> And lets not forget, *these are not actual people reacting to actual situations*.  I am not blaming someone that couldn't perform under a pressure situation.  I am criticizing the writer's thinking of how the characters would react to the situation.  They are in no different boat then I am when deciding how the charachter would react.  Their decisions are not above criticism by any means.



I think you just made my point for me.     They're not real people. It's a tv show. Sure, the writers could have written something else, but they didn't choose to. They had somewhere they presumably wanted to go with the story that required Sylar to survive and escape again (apparently), so that's what happened.


----------



## BraveSirRobin (May 25, 2007)

sniffles said:
			
		

> I think you just made my point for me.     They're not real people. It's a tv show. Sure, the writers could have written something else, but they didn't choose to. They had somewhere they presumably wanted to go with the story that required Sylar to survive and escape again (apparently), so that's what happened.




So you agree with me that they railroaded the characters actions, regardless if it was sensible or not, to have them do what the writers wanted them to do?  Good, then we are in agreement.

I also consider that bad writing.


----------



## BraveSirRobin (May 25, 2007)

papastebu said:
			
		

> Parkman's not sure that bullets don't do much to Sylar, is he?




Yes he is.  He has shot Sylar before with no effect.


----------



## papastebu (May 25, 2007)

Which episode was that? I don't recall seeing it happen. I remember a lot of guns being fired in the show over the season, but that doesn't stick out. Are you talking about the graphic novels? I haven't seen but a few pages of one in the book store, and it sold sometime that day, because I came back and it was gone.
But anyway...


----------



## Tolen Mar (May 25, 2007)

That was rather early in the season, after Parkman had teamed up with the FBI chick.  They chased him into an alley.  At this point, the only view we've had of Sylar has been a fellow in a dark jacket and ballcap (the outift Sylar had on in the restaraunt later on).

The bullets didn't do a thing to him.  A little bit of TK later, and he was gone.

I don't remember the name of the episode though.


----------



## BraveSirRobin (May 25, 2007)

Episode 3


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## papastebu (May 25, 2007)

Grog said:
			
		

> Actually, the best plan would have been to sedate him, since they knew from previous experience that that would work.



Does spontaneous regeneration take care of toxins, as well? Has Claire ever been sick or gotten food poisoning? Would anything like that work on Peter now?


----------



## papastebu (May 25, 2007)

BraveSirRobin said:
			
		

> Episode 3



I'm really looking foreward to getting the season on DVD, for just such occasions as these. :\


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 25, 2007)

papastebu said:
			
		

> Parkman's not sure that bullets don't do much to Sylar, is he?



As mentioned, he tried to shoot before and it was a failure. Hence "tried the failed tactic again". It WAS a while ago though, but since I came into the show around ep 14, it's fresher to me. 




> And, not trying to be snarky at all, these aren't the X-Men. They haven't been trained in the use of their powers, team-based combat, or even working together---other than HRG's guidance when the three of them were busting out of captivity. They've hardly known each other, up 'til now,and some of them are meeting for the first time in that plaza---Peter and the Hawkins family, for example---and are in exceedingly stressful circumstances, to boot.




Right, but time DOES pass. They seem unable to process past events. Bennet lets Parkman wander off, neither of them seeming to understand the power Sylar has. Mohinder focuses on Molly to the exclusion of understanding that Sylar is on his way and that defeating him is important.

They really do just kind of wander through life.



> Another thing to remember, all of the injuries occur from Sylar's puissance, not from anyone else's incompetence.




Sylar was using powers while they stood there waiting their turn. Parkman was injured due to his own idiotic actions, Bennet wasn't even really injured I think. Claire just kind of stood there, Nikki runs over, gets in a hit and they just stand there.

But, it truely was Sylar's incompetence that defeated him. 



> They's all jus' folks, ya know?   With awesome cosmic power, sure, but just people.



Sorry, I just don't buy it. They're not normal folks anymore. They may not be Uber, or trained well, but they have been through a lot. As characters they haven't grown at all and their idea of how to use their powers is absent of any sort of progression.

But seriously, lets deal with untrained folks in a stressful situation. Shouldn't Peter unleash his most offensive or defensive power as soon as Bennet went flying? Heck, Parkman's tactic was bad, but at least he acted quickly. Nikki punchs him, and they just kind of stand there, instead of beating the $*** out of him.

I don't think anyone considers the "normal" human reaction to stand there calmly, but that's exactly what they did.


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 25, 2007)

papastebu said:
			
		

> I'm really looking foreward to getting the season on DVD, for just such occasions as these. :\




They are still available on the website, last I checked. Assuming you don't go the torrent route.

Oddly enough, some of the episodes on the website are altered from the way they aired. I only noticed it in recaps though.

It's an odd element. In the next to last episode, the recap scene's were reshot and altered from the original scene's. Then the recap was altered on the site. I'm not sure why they do this, but such is life.


----------



## DonTadow (May 25, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> As mentioned, he tried to shoot before and it was a failure. Hence "tried the failed tactic again". It WAS a while ago though, but since I came into the show around ep 14, it's fresher to me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



AGain, none, of them have ever used their powers in a tactical situation. Parkman is not all that smart and is very gunhoe, heck he still thought he could take out sylar, which means that he did not process that sylar has some kind of power that prevents him from being shot. As far as Parkman knows, he missed or sylar was wearing a vest. 

This is the problem. It seems you're unable to take yourself out of the telelvision viewer and put yourself in the environment.   They are not combat characters


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 25, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> AGain, none, of them have ever used their powers in a tactical situation. Parkman is not all that smart and is very gunhoe, heck he still thought he could take out sylar, which means that he did not process that sylar has some kind of power that prevents him from being shot. As far as Parkman knows, he missed or sylar was wearing a vest.



Where was that again? If we're going to assume stuff that's not in the show, I'll assume Bennet told him all about Sylar during one of their times togethor. After all, that's how he became aware of Bennet...

He saw Sylar go down, he can be reasonably sure he hit. Perhaps then, he thought Sylar had a vest. SO, by all means, time to shoot him again in the same way. As I said, he retired a failed tactic.




> This is the problem. It seems you're unable to take yourself out of the telelvision viewer and put yourself in the environment.   They are not combat characters




So, as a non-combat character, what should they have done? Stood around and waited?

Realistically, we differ in our opinion of what should have happened. I chalk it up plot device and so-so writing in a season full of mediocre pacing and uneven development in an otherwise fun show. You think what happened is justified.

Neither of us has any In Show justification for why what happened was there, so saying that I'm not putting myself in the environment isn't exactly accurate. You're putting yourself in an environment that isn't there, IMO. It's a pretty blanket response without actually responding to what I say. Do you think they are normal people after this seasons events? Do you believe that is a realistic depiction of what such a person, normal or no, would do? Wait in line for their turn to perform?


----------



## Ed_Laprade (May 25, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> But seriously, lets deal with untrained folks in a stressful situation. Nikki punchs him, and they just kind of stand there, instead of beating the $*** out of him.



And that, ladies and gentlemen, is something that totally blew my Suspension of Disbelief. For those of you who keep asking What Would You Do in this situation, I'd be stomping on Sylar's throat two seconds after he went down. And yelling for someone to find a big rock to bash his head in. HOW many people has this guy killed? Yeah, I'd probably get arrested if I didn't bug out, but I'd make _damn_ sure he was dead before I did.


----------



## BraveSirRobin (May 25, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> *AGain, none, of them have ever used their powers in a tactical situation. * Parkman is not all that smart and is very gunhoe, heck he still thought he could take out sylar, which means that he did not process that sylar has some kind of power that prevents him from being shot. As far as Parkman knows, he missed or sylar was wearing a vest.
> 
> This is the problem. It seems you're unable to take yourself out of the telelvision viewer and put yourself in the environment.   They are not combat characters




Not true.

Nikki has used her powers in a tactical situation coutless times.  Parkman has as well, one example of which is when he was fighting Jessica.  Peter has also used his powers in his two previous encounters with Sylar.  

You also can't explain away everyone's ineptitude by saying they are all non-combat characters and at the same time say it is reasonable for him to dismiss the one truly experienced combat character in the group to fight Sylar alone.  Is that what a non-combat character, as you describe, would do?


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 25, 2007)

Ed_Laprade said:
			
		

> And that, ladies and gentlemen, is something that totally blew my Suspension of Disbelief. For those of you who keep asking What Would You Do in this situation, I'd be stomping on Sylar's throat two seconds after he went down. And yelling for someone to find a big rock to bash his head in. HOW many people has this guy killed? Yeah, I'd probably get arrested if I didn't bug out, but I'd make _damn_ sure he was dead before I did.




Well, Nikki hasn't really encountered Sylar, I think. The rest have all been sort of scarred by him. I also wouldn't worry about the police, apparently they were on vacation with the rest of the city. 

To follow-on;
DL has Linderman's bullets in him, and probably his blood on his fist.
Bennet's gun killed <Eric Roberts character>, but luckily he passed it off to his daughter Claire... (we'll be generous and assume he ditches the gun before the cops show up. Probably down the same sewer hole that Sylar is taken down.) Still a matter of the video, but I think it's okay.
Parkman's in the clear, he only shot himself...
I think Hiro will be fine though. I doubt the sword guy would testify that Ando bought the sword, and the sword is gone anyway. Plus, no corpse.

So, really, I think DL is the only one going to jail, right now. Well, once he gets out of the hospital.

Assuming Candace & Nikki's girl fight doesn't amount to any charges.


----------



## Brown Jenkin (May 25, 2007)

papastebu said:
			
		

> The only explanations I'm actually missing, in story, are the non-notice of Sylar's body's disappearance, and Claire actually finding the plaza, and the why of Nathan having to sacrifice himself.




The only one I can answer is Claire finding the plaza. Peter and Claire went to the Plaza the previous episode where they encountered Ted, and Peter got Ted's power. Claire and Peter were then sent away to leave town. So Claire has been there before. Claire is also a teenager and not an idiot. I am fairly certain she could use a map or ask directions if she needed to, this however doesn't need to be shown on camera for me to accept it.


----------



## Taelorn76 (May 25, 2007)

BraveSirRobin said:
			
		

> Not true.
> 
> Nikki has used her powers in a tactical situation coutless times.  Parkman has as well, one example of which is when he was fighting Jessica.  Peter has also used his powers in his two previous encounters with Sylar.




Well to be fair Nikki really hasn't used her powers in tactical situations, that was Jessica.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 25, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Well to be fair Nikki really hasn't used her powers in tactical situations, that was Jessica.



I think that's an important point. Nikki has never used her powers in a tactical situation, only her "alter ago" (whatever it was/is - Shizophrenia, Multiple Personality Disorder, a Ghost).


----------



## DonTadow (May 25, 2007)

Ed_Laprade said:
			
		

> And that, ladies and gentlemen, is something that totally blew my Suspension of Disbelief. For those of you who keep asking What Would You Do in this situation, I'd be stomping on Sylar's throat two seconds after he went down. And yelling for someone to find a big rock to bash his head in. HOW many people has this guy killed? Yeah, I'd probably get arrested if I didn't bug out, but I'd make _damn_ sure he was dead before I did.



LOL 
NO you wouldn't.  

Everyone says this, but in that situation, with that kinda supernatural crap going on, you wouldn't know what to do.  Now, your d and d character might do something, but real people don't act on initiative order.  Reread your statement. This sounds like "what my character would do".  

There's one of two mindsets, either 
A. you know this guy is dangerous, which means you don't want to get too close because you dont know what to do
B. you don't know what this guy is or can do, and you're trying to be careful considering you already have injured loved ones



> Where was that again? If we're going to assume stuff that's not in the show, I'll assume Bennet told him all about Sylar during one of their times togethor. After all, that's how he became aware of Bennet...
> 
> He saw Sylar go down, he can be reasonably sure he hit. Perhaps then, he thought Sylar had a vest. SO, by all means, time to shoot him again in the same way. As I said, he retired a failed tactic.



 Parkman didn't know about sylars party and we can only assume he still doesn't know the extent. After all, Parkman and HG was not planning on attacking sylar, so why would they be discussing strategy for stopping him. What's more likely. You shoot someone, and they get up. 
a. you think, man he must have some type of telekinetic forcefield that has repelled my shots. 
b. I missed.  
c. I must not have gotten a good shot or he's wearing something 

Of course if you watch the show, and go into "what would my character do mode" then yeah you choose a because you know about Sylar and his powers and what he could do. but in the show you choose B or c. 


> I think that's my fundamental problem with the repetition of the season. The characters never learned/ advanced. They were still as badly organized at the end as they were at the start. There was no plan of attack, there was no coordination, they didn't share information. Bennet and Mohinder at the least should have a good idea of what powers he's got. Parkman's policy of "try the failed tactic again" seemed a bit pointless.



They are not a superteam group. They barely know how to control their powers let alone work out a team plan with them. We know the writers are stupid. We gather that from the five year episode that it takes real time to master powers and to learn how to control them in an environment. 



> Not true.
> 
> Nikki has used her powers in a tactical situation coutless times. Parkman has as well, one example of which is when he was fighting Jessica. Peter has also used his powers in his two previous encounters with Sylar.
> 
> You also can't explain away everyone's ineptitude by saying they are all non-combat characters and at the same time say it is reasonable for him to dismiss the one truly experienced combat character in the group to fight Sylar alone. Is that what a non-combat character, as you describe, would do?



Actually Jessica has, not Nicki and Parkman was a beat cop who couldn't even pass the detective exam.  We're not talking about the S.W.A.T. team here, we're talking about traffic violations and putting down yellow tape.


----------



## Ed_Laprade (May 25, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Well, Nikki hasn't really encountered Sylar, I think. The rest have all been sort of scarred by him. I also wouldn't worry about the police, apparently they were on vacation with the rest of the city.



I _so_ wanted Nikki to whack Sylar at least one more time with the parking meter! But yeah, she's about the last person to have any real reason to do so. So he's another guy with funky powers? Big deal, so's just about everyone else there... and her husband's been gut shot!


----------



## BraveSirRobin (May 25, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> LOL
> Actually Jessica has, not Nicki and Parkman was a beat cop who couldn't even pass the detective exam.  We're not talking about the S.W.A.T. team here, we're talking about traffic violations and putting down yellow tape.




So then I assume that you thought that Nicki acted out of character since she actually acted "smartly" and attacked Sylar like a "combat character" would?  Can't have it both ways.  

And Parkman still has training.  He has fired his weapon on several occassions and has been in combat situations.  For everyone inovlved in the battle (Nikki, Parkman, Bennet, Peter and Hiro) they had all been involved in fighting before and except Nikki had actually fought Sylar before.  If they weren't mentally prepared to do so then they should never actively gone to face him.  This wasn't them being taken by suprise.  They were headed to this location with the intent to confront and kill Sylar.


----------



## BraveSirRobin (May 25, 2007)

Ed_Laprade said:
			
		

> I _so_ wanted Nikki to whack Sylar at least one more time with the parking meter! But yeah, she's about the last person to have any real reason to do so. So he's another guy with funky powers? Big deal, so's just about everyone else there... and her husband's been gut shot!




So then you think it was inconsistent for her to even hit Sylar with the meter in the first place?  I mean, if her husband is her only thought and Syler is no big deal then why even bother attacking him the first time.


----------



## Fast Learner (May 25, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> Parkman was a beat cop who couldn't even pass the detective exam.



Well, ok, but I thought they indicated that was due to dyslexia, not a lack of cop knowledge or experience.


----------



## Lhorgrim (May 26, 2007)

I can't speak to the actions of the other characters, but Parkman behaved in a totally believable manner to me.

As a police officer armed with a handgun he saw Sylar killing Peter.  His training and instinct would be to "stop the threat".  He tried to do that by firing at Sylar just like he has trained to do on silhouette targets at the range time and time again. .  Even if he wasn't sure the bullets would affect Syler, it would go against his training/personality to stand there and do nothing.
Many officers involved in shootings report that they don't actually remember drawing their firearms.  The training is so repetitive that drawing and shooting at an identified threat becomes a reflex.

Just my 2 coppers on Parkman's response.


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 26, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> LOL
> NO you wouldn't.
> 
> Everyone says this, but in that situation, with that kinda supernatural crap going on, you wouldn't know what to do.  Now, your d and d character might do something, but real people don't act on initiative order.  Reread your statement. This sounds like "what my character would do".




You speak in a factual manner while discussing opinions. The D&D line of reasoning is, once again, yours, not the original posters. Armchair quarterbacking has nothing at ALL to do with D&D, and this show is a story written as entertainment. As such, the writers shouldn't fill it with so many moments where people think they would have acted more efficiently.



> There's one of two mindsets, either
> A. you know this guy is dangerous, which means you don't want to get too close because you dont know what to do
> B. you don't know what this guy is or can do, and you're trying to be careful considering you already have injured loved ones




Neglecting the fact these folks have been through a lot in the season, assuming they are regular folks, we can deal in "Fight or Flight" for a panic situation.

They did neither, they waited their turn.



> Parkman didn't know about sylars party and we can only assume he still doesn't know the extent. After all, Parkman and HG was not planning on attacking sylar, so why would they be discussing strategy for stopping him. What's more likely. You shoot someone, and they get up.
> a. you think, man he must have some type of telekinetic forcefield that has repelled my shots.
> b. I missed.
> c. I must not have gotten a good shot or he's wearing something



As I said, if you're going to insert all sorts of unseen scenes, then I would think it logical to allow me the same. Parkman first encountered Bennet during the Sylar investigation. He knew Bennet knew. They had a long drive to NY from Texas, they made small talk. He learned about Sylar then.

He sought out Sylar because Parkman knew the threat of the man. He knew his powers and he knew his tactics. He had means motive and oppurtunity to learn that A was the answer.





> Of course if you watch the show, and go into "what would my character do mode" then yeah you choose a because you know about Sylar and his powers and what he could do. but in the show you choose B or c.




Did he check the scene after the initial failed attempt? That'd rule out B.
If he thought C, then he also should have assumed the same likelihood in the repeat encounter and planned for it.



> Actually Jessica has, not Nicki and Parkman was a beat cop who couldn't even pass the detective exam.  We're not talking about the S.W.A.T. team here, we're talking about traffic violations and putting down yellow tape.




For the record, Nikki was so super strong that she could rip a parking meter out and hit someone with it.

She was not strong enough to simply lift her dying husband and run to a hospital.


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 26, 2007)

Ed_Laprade said:
			
		

> I _so_ wanted Nikki to whack Sylar at least one more time with the parking meter! But yeah, she's about the last person to have any real reason to do so. So he's another guy with funky powers? Big deal, so's just about everyone else there... and her husband's been gut shot!




She'd never met Peter before, had she?

Basically, Nikki just went over and attacked a random guy? 

Parkman opened fire, but I forget if she had come out at that point.


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 26, 2007)

Lhorgrim said:
			
		

> I can't speak to the actions of the other characters, but Parkman behaved in a totally believable manner to me.
> <snip>
> Just my 2 coppers on Parkman's response.




I totally agree with you on Parkmans response in the early episode. He came, he saw a threat, bang bang bang, check agent's safety, see boogey man gone.

In this episode though, we have a Parkman that has encountered Sylar, knows about Superpowers, went out to HUNT Sylar and confront him. I'll even assume that Parkman's perception was slow enough that he fired the five rounds before noticing that they were hovering there, but his total lack of preparation leaves a bit to be desired in the Plot Hole department.


----------



## papastebu (May 26, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> I totally agree with you on Parkmans response in the early episode. He came, he saw a threat, bang bang bang, check agent's safety, see boogey man gone.
> 
> In this episode though, we have a Parkman that has encountered Sylar, knows about Superpowers, went out to HUNT Sylar and confront him. I'll even assume that Parkman's perception was slow enough that he fired the five rounds before noticing that they were hovering there, but his total lack of preparation leaves a bit to be desired in the Plot Hole department.



Where does Parkman get a vest? He's not a cop anymore, much less a New York cop. I'm fine with his actions, given that he reacts more often than plans, and is not prone to listening to what other people tell him. HRG went down, Parkman reacted.
I am glad to know that Claire is not somehow omniscient, as well as invincible. I wasn't making the connection between their presence in that plaza the previous day and their presence during the battle.
Thinking back on it, it does seem a bit strange that Nicole went and snagged the parking meter from Sylar and then smacked him with it. But only a bit; In my wilder days I tried to stop a fistfight between two men that I saw when I was driving by, and when I got into the middle of them, they started coming after me. I started swinging. That could have been her reaction to the violence of the situation--fight or flight, like you said.
She couldn't move D.L. too much, could she? Not safe.
Maybe the one that can see Molly when she sees him grabbed Sylar's body and is even now reviving him?
I don't know that I would say that the characters were acting by turns, but the action's pacing in the plaza scene was off. Sylar could have stopped Hiro, because he was aware of him from a distance that took about a second to cross, and thought is quicker than that.
I don't think the writers are stupid. They came up with all of this stuff, didn't they? We are looking at a situation in hindsight, and they are trying to consider all possible angles while trying simultaneously to put out a weekly TV show, which, from what I hear, is murderously difficult, even without the complexity of a show like Heroes.


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## DonTadow (May 26, 2007)

BraveSirRobin said:
			
		

> So then I assume that you thought that Nicki acted out of character since she actually acted "smartly" and attacked Sylar like a "combat character" would?  Can't have it both ways.
> 
> And Parkman still has training.  He has fired his weapon on several occassions and has been in combat situations.  For everyone inovlved in the battle (Nikki, Parkman, Bennet, Peter and Hiro) they had all been involved in fighting before and except Nikki had actually fought Sylar before.  If they weren't mentally prepared to do so then they should never actively gone to face him.  This wasn't them being taken by suprise.  They were headed to this location with the intent to confront and kill Sylar.



Nicki acted in reaction, and not all that well.  If Jessica had been in control, we'd have seen some more creative attacking of Sylar from here.  Beating someone with a club is not the most creative that we've seen jessica.  

Parkman has trainning with a gun. So do most hunters. Doesnt mean they are trained for tactical fighting.  Nicki and DLwent to the location to find Micah, not fight Sylar. If i am correct, the only people who knew sylar would be there was peter, claire, hiro and maybe Nathan.


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## DonTadow (May 26, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> You speak in a factual manner while discussing opinions. The D&D line of reasoning is, once again, yours, not the original posters. Armchair quarterbacking has nothing at ALL to do with D&D, and this show is a story written as entertainment. As such, the writers shouldn't fill it with so many moments where people think they would have acted more efficiently.



I"m basing my opinion on the actual tactical knowledge of the basic human person.




> Neglecting the fact these folks have been through a lot in the season, assuming they are regular folks, we can deal in "Fight or Flight" for a panic situation.



 This is the basic flaw in this argument. It has only been a few months. We never saw ONE single training montage with any of them and their powers.  There was some training with Peter, but not any of them. YOu're thinking of this as 9 months of training because the show was on for nine months, but, and someone can correct me, isnt the timeline of the show about 3 months (maybe less).  


> They did neither, they waited their turn.



 They weren't waiting turns, they were waiting for someone else to do something or waiting for a chance for them to do something.  They are not a tactical team. They aren't even a team.  I could very well see why it would take someone a minute to digest A. should i help and B. what should I do.  YOu see this everyday. Google 91 year old man carjacking Detroit and see what i am talking about.  People always say "what i would have done" but in the situation you're a different person without the training of what to do.  




> As I said, if you're going to insert all sorts of unseen scenes, then I would think it logical to allow me the same. Parkman first encountered Bennet during the Sylar investigation. He knew Bennet knew. They had a long drive to NY from Texas, they made small talk. He learned about Sylar then.



 No ones inserting unseen scenes. I"m talking about logic.  What is the more likely thought. This is only an hour show. The producers can't put every basic assumption on the screen. If you see HG at the paperfactory during one scene and at home another, its safe to assume he drove there.  Do you need that scene to figure it out? 

Same here, we obviously see that Parkman doesn't know about Sylars powers.  We are safe to assume that Parkman has not figured out that he cant' shoot sylar (considering this is the third time he's done it).  Because of the likelihood of a bullet missing at long distances and other intangibles, its more logical for a non-informed about sylar individual to believe there was some other reason, other than telekinesis, why the bullet did not hit sylar.    Who is thinking "this guy has telkenetics".  Only the tv watcher who knows that.  Why would they have a long talk about sylar. What catalyst would have brought in on.  The evidence states that parkman does not know much about sylar, so the long talk is illogical.  Your logic stream is flawed because of a lack of this catalyst. Why would HG discuss the superpowers of Sylar and everyone else when it has nothing to do with their immiediate mission.  







> Did he check the scene after the initial failed attempt? That'd rule out B.
> If he thought C, then he also should have assumed the same likelihood in the repeat encounter and planned for it.



 The shield comes on the following day an hour later.  This isn't a crime drama or forensic show.  We've seen Sylar stop bullets 3 different ways now. two of which would A. keep the bullets with him. B. send the bullets flying in other directions.  Because this evidience was never brought up, and it would be important, we can assume there was no hardcore evidence that parkman's bullets missed or hit. 

WAsn't there blood at the first scene? 

That's all I need to know that I didn't get a good shot.  Parkman's not a marksman, elite supercop, trained swat officier. He is a beat cop.  



For the record, Nikki was so super strong that she could rip a parking meter out and hit someone with it.

She was not strong enough to simply lift her dying husband and run to a hospital.[/QUOTE]
Nicki's from Las Vegas, where is the hospital. This is New York City. She'd need superspeed aswell.


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## Ed_Laprade (May 26, 2007)

BraveSirRobin said:
			
		

> So then you think it was inconsistent for her to even hit Sylar with the meter in the first place?  I mean, if her husband is her only thought and Syler is no big deal then why even bother attacking him the first time.



Not sure. I'd have to see that scene again. It seemed to be reasonable at the time, but just why she did it is a bit fuzzy at the moment. Maybe she figured that the guy everyone else was trying to take down was a danger to DL and Micah? So she took him down and went back to worrying about her husband...?


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## Vocenoctum (May 27, 2007)

papastebu said:
			
		

> Where does Parkman get a vest? He's not a cop anymore, much less a New York cop.



Vests, up to a certain level are legal. Perhaps not in NY, but hey. ALso, depending on his department, he may have owned his. Either way, he'd have had to procure it during the long trip, which is possible, but unknown.

What I meant was, if he assumed Sylar had a vest, he should have still assumed such now.



> I'm fine with his actions, given that he reacts more often than plans, and is not prone to listening to what other people tell him. HRG went down, Parkman reacted.




My problem isn't specifically Parkman shooting, that's more of just an example of the trend. The trend is that none of the characters advanced through the season, they didn't learn. (Except Claire, IMO.)



> I am glad to know that Claire is not somehow omniscient, as well as invincible. I wasn't making the connection between their presence in that plaza the previous day and their presence during the battle.
> Thinking back on it, it does seem a bit strange that Nicole went and snagged the parking meter from Sylar and then smacked him with it. But only a bit; In my wilder days I tried to stop a fistfight between two men that I saw when I was driving by, and when I got into the middle of them, they started coming after me.



Are you sure you did that? According to DonTadow, people don't act that way. 




> I started swinging. That could have been her reaction to the violence of the situation--fight or flight, like you said.




It may be that she came out, saw Sylar toss Bennet and Parkman shoot at Sylar, then go down himself. She then reacted to attack the enemy presented. I haven't bothered checking, but I don't think that's it. I think she came down after Parkman was already down.



> She couldn't move D.L. too much, could she? Not safe.




She WAS moving DL. Just, slowly. His walking would cause more aggravation than being carried, most of the time.


> Maybe the one that can see Molly when she sees him grabbed Sylar's body and is even now reviving him?




Right, The Dark One. 


> I don't know that I would say that the characters were acting by turns, but the action's pacing in the plaza scene was off. Sylar could have stopped Hiro, because he was aware of him from a distance that took about a second to cross, and thought is quicker than that.




The "turns" phrasing I use is definetly overstated, but that's how the combat felt to me. Like an old FF game where the guy jumps up, uses a big power, the other guy has a little damage number above his head. Then first guy gets back in line, and second guy goes...

ANd yeah, Sylar is fast enough to stop 5 bullets that travel at 850FPS, but not one Japanese Computer Guy.



> I don't think the writers are stupid. They came up with all of this stuff, didn't they? We are looking at a situation in hindsight, and they are trying to consider all possible angles while trying simultaneously to put out a weekly TV show, which, from what I hear, is murderously difficult, even without the complexity of a show like Heroes.



I think the writers have a general arc, and specific scene's in mind. The rest they make up as they go along (in advance of shooting, obviously). They don't have a good eye for pacing, since they're still catching their stride, plus they overuse Plot Devices, where they need something to happen (Sylar must escape) without feeling the need to justify it internally.

Hopefully they keep the good stuff and manage to work out the other problems. It is the first season afterall.


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## Vocenoctum (May 27, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> I"m basing my opinion on the actual tactical knowledge of the basic human person.



Why do you keep bringing up the "tactics" strawman? I'm not talking great forethought, I'm saying "it's Sylar, freeze time!" or maybe "It's Sylar, turn invisible!", heck maybe "It's Sylar, read his mind!"

Basically, I wanted immediate action that made sense. Instead, people stared while others acted.



> This is the basic flaw in this argument. It has only been a few months. We never saw ONE single training montage with any of them and their powers.  There was some training with Peter, but not any of them. YOu're thinking of this as 9 months of training because the show was on for nine months, but, and someone can correct me, isnt the timeline of the show about 3 months (maybe less).




First off, it's bad form to explain to someone what they are thinking, especially when you are wrong.
Secondly, Peter's training was worthless.
Thirdly, I didn't say training, certainly not Montage level training.

The people have been through a lot in a short time period. Peter has seen people die, Bennet just shot a very old friend moments before, and Eve's lose should have mattered some little bit. Nikki's husband just murdered a guy, she knocked out Candace, and her alterego has murdered many. In that time, they have not advanced at all, Peter is still the same guy he was (with more powers), and Nikki still needs convincing every 3 minutes that she's strong.



> They weren't waiting turns, they were waiting for someone else to do something or waiting for a chance for them to do something.  They are not a tactical team. They aren't even a team.  I could very well see why it would take someone a minute to digest A. should i help and B. what should I do.  YOu see this everyday. Google 91 year old man carjacking Detroit and see what i am talking about.  People always say "what i would have done" but in the situation you're a different person without the training of what to do.




You can't judge how someone will act, true. That doesn't mean everyone does nothing. That means it's unpredictable. The scene took probably 10 minutes, with long stretchs of posturing and threatening. When they DO decide to act, they don't follow though, but instead hit once and move back.




> No ones inserting unseen scenes. I"m talking about logic.  What is the more likely thought. This is only an hour show. The producers can't put every basic assumption on the screen. If you see HG at the paperfactory during one scene and at home another, its safe to assume he drove there.  Do you need that scene to figure it out?



You are inserting scene's, things that are not shown on the show, and calling your scene's logical extensions of what was shown. Then you decide that my inserted scene's are illogical. This is where opinion comes in.



> Same here, we obviously see that Parkman doesn't know about Sylars powers.  We are safe to assume that Parkman has not figured out that he cant' shoot sylar (considering this is the third time he's done it).  Because of the likelihood of a bullet missing at long distances and other intangibles, its more logical for a non-informed about sylar individual to believe there was some other reason, other than telekinesis, why the bullet did not hit sylar.    Who is thinking "this guy has telkenetics".  Only the tv watcher who knows that.  Why would they have a long talk about sylar. What catalyst would have brought in on.  The evidence states that parkman does not know much about sylar, so the long talk is illogical.  Your logic stream is flawed because of a lack of this catalyst. Why would HG discuss the superpowers of Sylar and everyone else when it has nothing to do with their immiediate mission.



We don't know that he doesn't know about Sylar's powers. We don't know that he does. It is perfectly logical to me that he would raise the subject of Sylar at some point, especially given his reaction when he learns Sylar is there. He is not Scully. He's not a disbeliever. He can read minds and knows powers exist. If we're assuming that Parkman didn't know, it is easier to just assume he is dumb, and things a gun solves everything.

Or, the easier way, his attack was a simple plot device to demonstrate Sylar's power and remove him from the action. It also leaves his presence in season 2 in doubt. There doesn't need to be a reason in world for his actions, it probably just served some purpose to the writers job being easier. I think that diminishes the overall story of the show, though in the Parkman case not a whole lot.





> The shield comes on the following day an hour later.  This isn't a crime drama or forensic show.  We've seen Sylar stop bullets 3 different ways now. two of which would A. keep the bullets with him. B. send the bullets flying in other directions.  Because this evidience was never brought up, and it would be important, we can assume there was no hardcore evidence that parkman's bullets missed or hit.



You can assume whatever you want, we can't assume anything.



> WAsn't there blood at the first scene?
> 
> That's all I need to know that I didn't get a good shot.  Parkman's not a marksman, elite supercop, trained swat officier. He is a beat cop.



I don't remember any blood. It's not shown if Parkman's bullets were on scene. You can decide if Parkman was stupid at the initial scene, or at the followup, whichever makes you happy. 





> Nicki's from Las Vegas, where is the hospital. This is New York City. She'd need superspeed aswell.




Ah, so now you're assuming she wasn't heading to a hospital?
Do you think she was going to dump him in a sewer?

The simple fact is, she WAS moving him. She WAS going somewhere with him. She let him rest on a shoulder rather than carry him.


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## LightPhoenix (May 27, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Basically, I wanted immediate action that made sense. Instead, people stared while others acted.




While part of this was the directing, I think the combat was choreographed very poorly as well.  The events should have happened much closer together than they did, and I think whoever was in charge of that scene, both directing and choreographing, should have realized that.  Without seeing an actual script, it's hard to blame that scene simply on the writing.  For all we know, it could have been written a lot more tightly.

Also, I think in this instance they were trying too hard to emulate a comic book style, where action is told panel by panel, and a big fight might only take a page or two.  That works well in comics, but not so well on the screen.


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## bodhi (May 27, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Basically, I wanted immediate action that made sense. Instead, people stared while others acted.



Today, in the paper (Oregonian), I read about a 15 year old girl who chased down a purse snatcher. A motorist stopped and helped in the chase, then the guy ran into a store and store security got him. But everyone else just stood around. People tend to do that. Hey, where'd _he_ come from? Should I do something? What should I do? What _can_ I do?

Bennett broke his arm. Parkman, well...as others have said, he tends to act more from the gut than the head. Jessica's the fighter, not Niki. I think she _should_ have hit Sylar again (and again, and...), but when her son yells for her, and Peter says go, well, she goes. Peter wants very much to be a hero, almost as much as Hiro, but I don't think he'd ever been in so much as a schoolyard brawl. And I think Hiro _should_ have stopped time. But now I kinda suspect Hiro might see that as dishonorable. He announces himself before running Sylar through.

Now, Sylar had previously taunted Hiro, and Hiro disappears, reappears, then disappears again with Ando. So I think Sylar was expecting some Power vs Power match (like we see in the future Sylar/Peter fight), and not just for Hiro to stick him in the chest with a big sword. You might chalk this up to writer's (DM) fiat, but as Hiro says, it's not the sword, it's the man. And it's not Hiro's power that enables him to defeat Sylar.


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## Vocenoctum (May 27, 2007)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> While part of this was the directing, I think the combat was choreographed very poorly as well.  The events should have happened much closer together than they did, and I think whoever was in charge of that scene, both directing and choreographing, should have realized that.  Without seeing an actual script, it's hard to blame that scene simply on the writing.  For all we know, it could have been written a lot more tightly.



I think the outline just needed more fleshing out, but overall the combat was just a big let down. But, like I said, it's just first season so hopefully they iron out and decide on a course.



> Also, I think in this instance they were trying too hard to emulate a comic book style, where action is told panel by panel, and a big fight might only take a page or two.  That works well in comics, but not so well on the screen.




That's quite possible, hadn't thought of it. They are still finding their stride though, deciding which recurring characters for next season, trying to find the balance between revealing secrets and keeping mystery.


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## Vocenoctum (May 27, 2007)

bodhi said:
			
		

> Today, in the paper (Oregonian), I read about a 15 year old girl who chased down a purse snatcher. A motorist stopped and helped in the chase, then the guy ran into a store and store security got him. But everyone else just stood around. People tend to do that. Hey, where'd _he_ come from? Should I do something? What should I do? What _can_ I do?




I think of it like, what would you do if you were in a 7-11 and a gunfight broke out. WOuld you rush someone? draw your own gun? would you run for cover?

Would you stand there and wait to figure out what to do for the ten minutes?



> Bennett broke his arm. Parkman, well...as others have said, he tends to act more from the gut than the head. Jessica's the fighter, not Niki. I think she _should_ have hit Sylar again (and again, and...), but when her son yells for her, and Peter says go, well, she goes. Peter wants very much to be a hero, almost as much as Hiro, but I don't think he'd ever been in so much as a schoolyard brawl. And I think Hiro _should_ have stopped time. But now I kinda suspect Hiro might see that as dishonorable. He announces himself before running Sylar through.



I wonder if Hiro has some kind of locational power too, that he knew where to go. He certainly didn't know When to go...



> Now, Sylar had previously taunted Hiro, and Hiro disappears, reappears, then disappears again with Ando. So I think Sylar was expecting some Power vs Power match (like we see in the future Sylar/Peter fight), and not just for Hiro to stick him in the chest with a big sword. You might chalk this up to writer's (DM) fiat, but as Hiro says, it's not the sword, it's the man. And it's not Hiro's power that enables him to defeat Sylar.




At what point did Sylar understand the guy with the sword running at him was a threat?

Assuming Parkman was 100' away, the first bullet reached Sylar in about an eight of a second.

Assuming Hiro was 20' away, how fast would he have to move before Sylar responded to the threat?

Strictly academic though of course. The earlier Jessica/Parkman fight was fine, not to mention the 5 years encounters. Hopefully they figure out how pacing and climax works in season 2.


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## PhoenixDarkDirk (May 27, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> It has only been a few months. We never saw ONE single training montage with any of them and their powers.  There was some training with Peter, but not any of them. YOu're thinking of this as 9 months of training because the show was on for nine months, but, and someone can correct me, isnt the timeline of the show about 3 months (maybe less).




I think it was more like one month. Close to the beginnig of the series Hiro thought it was October 2nd, but he had actually gone ahead to November 8th and seen the explosion. It appears that, because of his changes to history, the explosion happened some hours earlier in the finale.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 27, 2007)

I somehow have 6 weeks in my mind, but I don't know why. Maybe I will have to rewatch the old episodes, when I get them on DVD or something. Oh dear, the hard duties of a fan... 

By the way, speaking of "turns" and taking turns on a more general level than Heroes: This is something that often happens in movies and series, especially in regards to dialogues. You rarely hear multiple people speak at the same time like it happens in the real world -> the viewer must be able to see and hear all the dialogue, and it's probably also very hard to write a scene that dynamically. (I am neither a writer or actor, but from the scripts I saw from distance, the whole interaction of a scene is described in a single flow. Lines of dialogues, followed by a short description of the action followed by lines of dialogues. Interruptions are possible, but not parallel speaking...)


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## Richards (May 27, 2007)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> By the way, speaking of "turns" and taking turns on a more general level than Heroes: This is something that often happens in movies and series, especially in regards to dialogues. You rarely hear multiple people speak at the same time like it happens in the real world -> the viewer must be able to see and hear all the dialogue, and it's probably also very hard to write a scene that dynamically.



That was one of the cool things about the original movie "The Thing" - people spoke over each other, like in real life.  They also used to do that on "Moonlighting" a lot, as I recall (well, at least David and Maddie did).

Johnathan


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## Relique du Madde (May 28, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Assuming Parkman was 100' away, the first bullet reached Sylar in about an eight of a second.
> 
> Assuming Hiro was 20' away, how fast would he have to move before Sylar responded to the threat?




Remember Sylar did see Isaac's incomplete comic book, so his reaction might have been to stand still (since by that point he probably believed that you can't change fate).


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## Man in the Funny Hat (May 28, 2007)

Fascinating discussion all, but somewhat beside the point for me.  I don't care if the characters acted bravely, stupidly, according to training, or with animalistic responses.  The problem is that it just wasn't a very well-written and even less well-edited episode.  For a BIG season-ender that's almost criminal.  The pacing of the entire episode just sucked and culminated in a final confrontation that was devoid of real dramatic tension and resolution, or proper flow for any kind of an action scene.

Explain it or nitpick the details as you like.  It just wasn't well done, even with what they DID do, and that was a huge disappointment.  Yeah they could've/should've done lots of things different there.  They just DIDN'T.  I was GREATLY more satisfied and pleased with the wrap-up for Lost - and THAT is near insulting considering how annoyed I was with so much of Lost this season.

Oh well.  Maybe they'll do better next year.


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## Man in the Funny Hat (May 28, 2007)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> By the way, speaking of "turns" and taking turns on a more general level than Heroes: This is something that often happens in movies and series, especially in regards to dialogues. You rarely hear multiple people speak at the same time like it happens in the real world -> the viewer must be able to see and hear all the dialogue, and it's probably also very hard to write a scene that dynamically. (I am neither a writer or actor, but from the scripts I saw from distance, the whole interaction of a scene is described in a single flow. Lines of dialogues, followed by a short description of the action followed by lines of dialogues. Interruptions are possible, but not parallel speaking...)



The viewer does not need to see/hear all the dialogue.  They only need to understand what they are intended to understand.  If they are intended to be given an impression of a rapid sequence of activity and confusion then dialogue that steps over other dialogue is an excellent tool.

As for how difficult it is... well, I'm not a professional writer either - but THESE PEOPLE ARE.  Getting a big, season-ending confrontation like this RIGHT is what they get paid for.  Your impression of a script being dialogue-minimal action description-dialogue-minimal action description-etc. is often correct, but turning that into a dynamic scene on film is what they do week after week throughout the season.  How and why they blew it when it came down to the most important scene of the year is beyond me, given how well they did up to that point.


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## Relique du Madde (May 28, 2007)

Man in the Funny Hat said:
			
		

> The viewer does not need to see/hear all the dialogue.  They only need to understand what they are intended to understand.  If they are intended to be given an impression of a rapid sequence of activity and confusion then dialogue that steps over other dialogue is an excellent tool.
> 
> As for how difficult it is... well, I'm not a professional writer either - but THESE PEOPLE ARE.  Getting a big, season-ending confrontation like this RIGHT is what they get paid for.  Your impression of a script being dialogue-minimal action description-dialogue-minimal action description-etc. is often correct, but turning that into a dynamic scene on film is what they do week after week throughout the season.  How and why they blew it when it came down to the most important scene of the year is beyond me, given how well they did up to that point.




Isn't it possible that the reason why that final battle happened the way it did was because they didn't want the entire battle to devolve into a flurry of activity which many movie-goers complain about?  I mean, if you think about it the entire battle DID NOT take place in real time and as a result the action dragged on and its dynamic flow "fell appart."  (It doesn't help that every character who wasn't important to each shot was completely out of the frame which helps destroy any time context).
In effect, what we saw that the "RPG" version of the battle rather then the real-time version of the battle itself.  If you were to place any real context of how long the battle took you wouyld have to cut out any shot that doesn't take place on sylar/peter time (while taking into consideration that some events which occure in sylar/peter time overlap).


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## Vocenoctum (May 28, 2007)

Relique du Madde said:
			
		

> Isn't it possible that the reason why that final battle happened the way it did was because they didn't want the entire battle to devolve into a flurry of activity which many movie-goers complain about?  I mean, if you think about it the entire battle DID NOT take place in real time and as a result the action dragged on and its dynamic flow "fell appart."  (It doesn't help that every character who wasn't important to each shot was completely out of the frame which helps destroy any time context).
> In effect, what we saw that the "RPG" version of the battle rather then the real-time version of the battle itself.  If you were to place any real context of how long the battle took you wouyld have to cut out any shot that doesn't take place on sylar/peter time (while taking into consideration that some events which occure in sylar/peter time overlap).





Entirely possible, maybe even plausible, but still seems a bad story. Granted 5YrPeter and 5YrHiro cutting a swath through bunchs of guards isn't directly proportional to a true battle between Powered Folks, but the Jessica/ Parkman battle was fun enough, I think.

Obviously I can't speak for everyone, but I think it's nearly universal that folks went "oh cool!" when 5YrSylar and 5YrPeter faced off, and most would regard that has better than the final confrontation. Sure, Vader forcechoked a guy, but we didn't label that a "climactic battle", and Sylar holding Peter was likewise boring.

Anyway, this comes down to some of us thinking the final episode had writing/ pacing/ story problems, and others trying to justify those actions in the world as presented. If the material doesn't stand on it's own, that's a problem as much as anything. I think the show, moving forward, would be better served by correcting those mistakes, rather than justifying how they "weren't mistakes".


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## Ranger REG (May 29, 2007)

Does anyone know who Molly refers to when she said there is someone worse than Sylar that she fears?


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## John Crichton (May 29, 2007)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Does anyone know who Molly refers to when she said there is someone worse than Sylar that she fears?



 The BBEG for season 2.  Yet to be named.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 29, 2007)

By the way, there was a part of the dialogue between Nathan and his mother I didn't get entirely. 
After she told him that Linderman was dead but this wouldn't change anything, she said something like
"You know the congressman" or "You are now congressman". I don't know which of these they said. If the former, this could mean there is yet another one higher up in the scheme of things (which might be the same badguy as Molly refers to, or just be a "parallel" villain, the season 2 equivalent to Sylar)


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## F5 (May 29, 2007)

As for Bennett coaching Parkman on how to take Sylar down, Bennett HAS shot Sylar, and injured him.  When he confronts Sylar in his house, he fires several shots which connect, and put him down, even though they don't actually kill him (or, even incapacitate him to any real extent).  Still, in Bennett's confrontation with Sylar, the gun was NOT completely ineffective, so it's fair to assume from his own experiences that he wouldn't have coached Parkman not to bother shooting.  The reason it worked for Bennett and not for Parkman was that Bennett took Sylar by surprise; he just burst in the door shooting.  Sylar knew Bennett and Parkman were there (he had just TK-thrown Bennett across the plaza), so he had plenty of warning before Parkman started shooting, and was able to TK-grab the bullets.

Still, I agree that the editing and direction on that final scene were not good.  Coreographing that kind of FX-heavy fight with multiple participants is tough.  They should have brought in a guest-director or consultant for that scene, someone with cinematic experience, butt hey didn't.  Hopefully, they'll get better in Season 2...

Last, I have a theory as to why Peter didn't stop time or use any other funky power in his fight with Sylar.  He had just absorbed Nikki's strength.  Like he does whenever he encounters a new, innate power for the first time, he uses it without thinking (Claire's regen, Claude's invisibility, etc).  His empathic instinct at the moment was to pummel Sylar with his new, mighty fists, so that's what he did.


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## F5 (May 29, 2007)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> After she told him that Linderman was dead but this wouldn't change anything, she said something like
> "You know the congressman" or "You are now congressman".




I think the line there was more like, "You know that, don't you, _congressman_?"

She was reinforcing that he had gotten what he wanted, and been put into position, and now it was time for him to live up to his part of The Plan.  

At least, that's how I intepereted it.  

(Sorry for the double-post)


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## Ed_Laprade (May 29, 2007)

Next weeks TV Guide has a blurb about why Peter didn't fly off by himself. _We weren't supposed to notice that!!!_


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## Vocenoctum (May 29, 2007)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Does anyone know who Molly refers to when she said there is someone worse than Sylar that she fears?




Theoretically a villain for next time, or maybe the Haitian.

Timing wise, they dont' detail when Molly developed the sickness enough to cut off her powers. I assume she must have had them at some point while with The Company, and they asked her to track a few people. Perhaps one of them was Claude and he's the guy, but doubt it.

Perhaps The Dark One can infect disease from a distance when he detects meddling children scrying him? It goes well with his roach minions that steal corpses!


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## Relique du Madde (May 30, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Perhaps The Dark One can infect disease from a distance when he detects meddling children scrying him? It goes well with his roach minions that steal corpses!




An interesting theory considering that there was that roach which was handing around Sylar's cell which vanished after he left the bunker.


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## Vocenoctum (May 30, 2007)

Relique du Madde said:
			
		

> An interesting theory considering that there was that roach which was handing around Sylar's cell which vanished after he left the bunker.




Technically, I think Sylar was dead then. He didn't cycle through the eyes or anything though.

So, he's dead now, roach again...

Like I said, my theory is that Sylar will be returned to life (or semblance thereof) but without his acquired powers.


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## WayneLigon (May 30, 2007)

Stuff from the CBR Heroes Spring Special
A lot will be revealed about the company in the very first episode of season two.

You can expect some revelations about Nakamura-San in the very first episode of season two. 

_"Was the fact that Nathan was needed to fly Peter away just done for dramatic effect since Peter has flight, too, or does this prove Peter only has access to one power at a time?" _ 

It’s the later. Peter even says, “I can’t stop it. I can’t do anything.” Peter was helpless. There were two options. Kill Peter. Or Nathan could fly him away and try to save them all. Now, if Peter or Nathan survived and how – remains to be seen. 

_"This person who Molly fears worse than Sylar, it wouldn't happen to be the Haitian would it? " _  we can assure you it is not the Haitian. 

If the question really is, “Are we going to get to see what Candice really looks like?” The answer is – yes. Sooner than you think. 
_
"Where the heck has the Hatian Sensation been? Wouldn't he have been able to stop Sylar? Or was he ordered not to be there...?" _ 

The Haitian was doing something incredibly important which will be revealed in Season Two. 

_Is Sylar somehow able to see how the powers work on a cellular level, allowing him to know how to 'consume' them (literally and figuratively)?" _ 

A mystery yet to be solved… and yes – the mystery does have an answer


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## occam (May 30, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Perhaps The Dark One can infect disease from a distance when he detects meddling children scrying him?




Makes you wonder about Mohinder's sister....


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## occam (May 30, 2007)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> Stuff from the CBR Heroes Spring Special




Here's another one you didn't mention:

_*"Did Sylar crawl into the sewer or was he dragged? Is it safe to say we haven't see the last of him?"*

Look at those marks – did they look like crawl marks or drag marks. Is there even such a thing as crawl marks? The answer is on the film._


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