# The Ultimates: Homeland Security



## DanMcS (Jun 14, 2004)

Trade paperback #2, collecting issues 7 to 13, I believe.  Some spoilers.

Just picked this up.  The Ultimates is consistently my favorite comic series, and it's a shame it's so infrequently published.  This whole book had me going "ooh" and "aaah".  The giant flying hovercarriers, Cap vs Giant Man, the alien guys, the Black Widow and Hawkeye invading the highrise buildings.  It was just neat, and all played like a cool action movie.

This series tends to feature the whole team well, as opposed to Ultimate X-Men trade #7, which featured Wolverine, Spider-man, Daredevil, and oh yeah, all those other mutant guys who showed up at the end.

The writing was amusing, I loved the whole thing.  In particular, the final plan involving ticking off Bruce Banner and then telling him the alien leader had been hitting on Betty.  Brilliance.


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## Mog Elffoe (Jun 14, 2004)

I enjoy the series overall but there is an ongoing streak of mean-spiritedness that I don't care for at all--like the way normal miltary types are always portrayed as thugs who enjoy beating up 98 lb weaklings, etc.

I'm looking foraward to seeing what the 'real deal' is with Ultimate Thor in the next series.  Personally, I'm hoping for for the whole Asgardian thing to be real and that Thor isn't just an extraordinarily powerful and _mortal_ nutcase.


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## DM_Matt (Jun 14, 2004)

Mog Elffoe said:
			
		

> I'm looking foraward to seeing what the 'real deal' is with Ultimate Thor in the next series.  Personally, I'm hoping for for the whole Asgardian thing to be real and that Thor isn't just an extraordinarily powerful and _mortal_ nutcase.




I'd rather him be the holographic representation of a frail little grey alien.


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## DanMcS (Jun 14, 2004)

Mog Elffoe said:
			
		

> I enjoy the series overall but there is an ongoing streak of mean-spiritedness that I don't care for at all--like the way normal miltary types are always portrayed as thugs who enjoy beating up 98 lb weaklings, etc.




I think they're taking their lead from their Captain America.  Cap isn't terribly nice, in this comic.  He's a heck of a soldier, and a good guy in a fight, but he's got this insane streak where anything he can do to win works for him.  I couldn't really remember the event you were talking about, so I flipped through, and it's right before they toss Banner out of the helicopter, they're beating him around on Cap's orders.

And to be fair, these aren't the normal military types, these are the gung-ho psychos Shield can get signed up to its black ops divisions.  We never really see normal military types in any of the Ultimate series, I think.


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## Mog Elffoe (Jun 14, 2004)

DanMcS said:
			
		

> I think they're taking their lead from their Captain America.  Cap isn't terribly nice, in this comic.  He's a heck of a soldier, and a good guy in a fight, but he's got this insane streak where anything he can do to win works for him.  I couldn't really remember the event you were talking about, so I flipped through, and it's right before they toss Banner out of the helicopter, they're beating him around on Cap's orders.
> 
> And to be fair, these aren't the normal military types, these are the gung-ho psychos Shield can get signed up to its black ops divisions.  We never really see normal military types in any of the Ultimate series, I think.




The guys that help Iron Man out after he controls the crash of the alien craft had a rather callous attitude towards him as well that didn't sit well with me.  There's a throwaway line or two in there that just really made them out to be jerks that kind of bugged me.

Also, I thoroughly dislike the Hulk eating people.  I'm all for the updating and 'ultimization' of these characters, but making him a cannibal?  Too much in the wrong direction, if you ask me.

And I found Cap's plan at the end of Homeland security to be anything BUT brilliant.  "Hey, Hulk!  Those aliens think you're queer--are you gonna let them get away with that?"   Brilliant?  Seriously...

Stuff I do like:

1.) Hitch's artwork
2.) The *scale* of the battles
3.) Cap's laying the smack down on Giant Man
4.) Thor (but not the Ultimate Mjolnir--looks more like an axe than a hammer)
5.) Iron Man--especially the bit in HS where he's trying to get rid of the core that's going to explode and the Black Widow is going on about how it was an honor to have known and worked with him because she thinks he's about to sacrifice himself.
6.) Most everything else.  I do just get tired of seeing some of the sadistic and callous types that Millar puts in his *any* of his stories.  Overall, I think that _Ultimates_ is good fun.


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## Mog Elffoe (Jun 14, 2004)

DM_Matt said:
			
		

> I'd rather him be the holographic representation of a frail little grey alien.




God, I hope not...


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## Desdichado (Jun 14, 2004)

Oh, is this out?  I really love the first book, and I've read a fair amount of the very infrequent issues that make up this second book.  I'll be picking it up then, for sure.

I actually _like_ the dark, gritty nastiness of _The Ultimates._  It's such a change of pace, especially for an all-American group like the Avengers.


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## Mog Elffoe (Jun 15, 2004)

I like the darkness of _The Ultimates _ and the grittiness.  I guess it's the nastiness that I have a problem with.


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## ashockney (Jun 16, 2004)

In my mind, one of the best comic series ever.  

The world has not yet seen how incredibly cool, and in my mind revolutionary, this comic may be.  It could easily be adapted straight into a movie, and I hope like heck it is! 

Ultimates rules!


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## Desdichado (Jun 16, 2004)

ashockney said:
			
		

> In my mind, one of the best comic series ever.
> 
> The world has not yet seen how incredibly cool, and in my mind revolutionary, this comic may be.  It could easily be adapted straight into a movie, and I hope like heck it is!
> 
> Ultimates rules!



Yeah, the ultimate universe already bears a pretty striking resemblance to the recent Spider-man and X-men movies as it is.  Doing the Ultimates, or a movie quite similar, would be fun.

However, I still haven't gotten into Ultimate FF.  The only leg of the four legged Ultimate Universe stool that I don't have yet.


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## kingamy (Jun 16, 2004)

Question for y'all...

I used to be in to Marvel comics when I was younger, unmarried, and had money.  I've been out of the loop for 8-10 years now, but know the characters fairly well still.

What's the general point of these "Ultimates"?  They sound, on the surface, like somthing I might be interested in.

Are they single books, limited run series, or full series?

Maybe is there a link I could follow for more info?  (I got out of comics just before I got into the internet  )

Thanks,

Mike


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## Desdichado (Jun 16, 2004)

There's four "Ultimate" series, Spider-man, X-men, Fantastic Four and the Ultimates themselves (who are kinda the Avengers.)  The point of them was to take established comic book characters, and hit "reset" so to speak with the continuity.  Telling the same basic story's again, but updated, without all the baggage of 30+ years of past continuity.  Let the characters be teenagers again, like they were initially.

The art and writing is typically top-notch, and the Ultimate universe is somewhat more gritty and dark than the standard one.  The Ultimates especially is dark, as Mog Effloe mentioned; spouse abuse between the Wasp and her husband, a cannibalistic Hulk, a severely psychologically disturbed Betty Ross, Tony Stark's playboyism isn't played up as part of this role; it's a real problem, Nick Shield is a manipulative bastard.  I disagree that Captain America is "nasty" in this series, although his use (abuse) of Bruce Banner/The Hulk wasn't all about truth, justice and the American way, by any means.

X-men is still dark, but not as much.  Spider-man is probably the most traditional in terms of atmosphere of the bunch, but its still got Kingpin and the original Green Goblin doing things that the comics code would never have approved of.  All in all, it's a set of series for the fans, recognizing that people who have been reading Spider-man, the X-men, etc. for all these years are now grown up and want more sophisticated stories with more sophisticated characters, but ones that are still true to their roots.

And like I said, the Fantastic Four I'm not really familiar with.  They are regular series, Spider-man and X-men have run for a few years now and have a good 50-60 episodes each.  The Ultimates is much more sporadic, and of course FF is new.  The good news is, they are being bound as trade paperbacks just a few months after they get a good 6-7 issues put together, so you can collect them without collecting all the individual issues if you like.


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## omokage (Jun 16, 2004)

The Ultimates is actually on hold as a series. Who knows if and when the next storyline will come out.


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## blindrage (Jun 16, 2004)

omokage said:
			
		

> The Ultimates is actually on hold as a series. Who knows if and when the next storyline will come out.





They are going to have six issues in the kitty before they print them.  Something about the delays have us readers p.o. for some reason.    
And someone is right about Betty Ross.   The girl is a nutbar and the reason why Banner is messed up in the head.  The fact she wants to sleep with Banner/Hulk after she saw him eating the leader of the alien army makes me kinda sick.  She is just wrong.


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## billd91 (Jun 16, 2004)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> The art and writing is typically top-notch, and the Ultimate universe is somewhat more gritty and dark than the standard one.  The Ultimates especially is dark, as Mog Effloe mentioned; spouse abuse between the Wasp and her husband, a cannibalistic Hulk, a severely psychologically disturbed Betty Ross, Tony Stark's playboyism isn't played up as part of this role; it's a real problem, Nick Shield is a manipulative bastard.  I disagree that Captain America is "nasty" in this series, although his use (abuse) of Bruce Banner/The Hulk wasn't all about truth, justice and the American way, by any means.




One thing to remember is that Cap is an anachronism. As Wasp pointed out a couple times, his behavior is very different from what would normally be expected out of today's sensibilities. For Cap, WWII is a very recent memory and a certain amount of institutional callousness had to be endured. Compare losing 1000 or so men in one day on a beach landing with how we mope about casualties in Iraq. In WWII, the US had to get used to that kind of scale. Cap is still used to it.
Keep in mind also that Cap's generation and the generation of leaders at the time of WWII tended to use violent intervention for foreign policy from the Dominican Republic to Vietnam, dallied with Nazis in the formation of covert intelligence services, sold out Poland and Czechoslovakia to preserve a wartime alliance with the Soviets, and were far less likely to prescribe anger counseling over a good, old-fashioned butt-kicking. When you come through a massive war against a regime like the Nazi regime, you find that a certain amount of moral flexibility and expedience is important to meeting more important goals. It's the experience of getting burned by the intervention in Vietnam and the social upheaval that went with it that has helped us change  as a society to the point where some of these things aren't as publically acceptible any more. Cap has no connection with that particular zeitgeist and thus seems, to a more modern eye, nasty.


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## Mog Elffoe (Jun 16, 2004)

>>double post<<


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## Mog Elffoe (Jun 16, 2004)

I actually don't have a problem with Captain America in _The Ultimates_, except when characters or even other readers say that his strategies are 'brilliant' because, thus far, while certainly effective, they are anything but.  I expect Cap to have an anachronistic kind of John Wayne-esque approach, and I'm kind of bugged when he's isn't portrayed that way, even in regular continuity.  I loved it when he kicked the crap out of Giant Man for hospitalizing the Wasp.  

As far as the series' 'nastiness' goes my major gripe is with the Hulk eating people.  Sorry, but he can't be a hero I can root for in any fashion after eating people.  That really, really bugs me.  Also, Millar usually presents military types as being unsavory, unscrupulous, or both.  I'm not in the military myself or anything, but it comes across clear to me that Millar is biased against the U.S. and also military types in general.  For the most part, I do like his Nick Fury--he's ALWAYS been manipulative, even in regular continuity.  It just seems to me that a disproportionate number of these often throwaway background characters are unnecessarily sleazy and thuggish.


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## DanMcS (Jun 16, 2004)

Mog Elffoe said:
			
		

> I actually don't have a problem with Captain America in _The Ultimates_, except when characters or even other readers say that his strategies are 'brilliant' because, thus far, while certainly effective, they are anything but.




Since I'm the reader being quoted here, I'll point out that I said the writing was brilliant, not the plan.  The plan entertained me, which was really all I was looking for.

Very sad to hear about the hiatus.  They're trying to drive me to Ultimate Spider-Man, aren't they, the finks.

But it's so pretty, and there are a lot of them, I could read USM for quite a while without running out, as opposed to my two lonely paperbacks of the Ultimates...

Hey, might as well ask here...  At comic shops, I've seen paperbacks called "Ultimate Team-Up" and "Ultimate Five", something like that.  Where do these fit in the stories, and who do they feature?  Are these just one-offs of short runs Marvel did in the Ultimate universe, or are they poorly titled issues that fit in with the Ultimate Spider-Man storyline or something?


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## Mog Elffoe (Jun 16, 2004)

For my money, _Ultimate Spider-Man _ is the best superhero book on the market.  I wholeheartedly recommend it.  Nick Fury from _The Ultimates _ makes regular cameo appearances as well.

The _Ultimate Team-Up _ books are worth picking up as well.  They're all written by Bendis, but each Spider-Man team up features a different artist (Matt Wagner, Phil Hester, Ted McKeever, Mike Allred, etc.).  Continuity-wise, they figure in around issue 6-24 or so of _Ultimate Spidey_.  Some stories are definitely better than others, but I enjoyed them overall.  I'm not sure how the Fantastic Four team up fits in Ultimate continuity at all, actually.  It is a fun story, though.


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## kingamy (Jun 17, 2004)

I remember a particular story I enjoyed, from the What If? series back in the early 90s.  It was a two-parter where the earth was destroyed while the Avengers were off-planet.  The Avengers went off to take their revenge against whoever it was that blew it up (it's been a while, I forget some of the specifics).  I'll never forget one scene, where the bad guys are after Captain America, and Hawkeye, out of arrows, trades uniforms with Cap and sacrifices himself so the team can escape.  I also remember a blinded Hercules sacrificing himself against a mob so the others could get away.  Dark, gritty, wonderful...

It's nice to see that there are some stories in a simlar vein out there again.  I think I might head down to the local comic shop and check it out.

Thanks for the tip, gang,

Mike


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## Villano (Jun 17, 2004)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> There's four "Ultimate" series, Spider-man, X-men, Fantastic Four and the Ultimates themselves (who are kinda the Avengers.)  The point of them was to take established comic book characters, and hit "reset" so to speak with the continuity.  Telling the same basic story's again, but updated, without all the baggage of 30+ years of past continuity.  Let the characters be teenagers again, like they were initially.





I haven't read any of the Ultimate series.  I have to say that I really don't like this idea.  It's sort of like they wanted to do a Crisis On Infinite Earths, but didn't have the guts to go through with it.   Now, you have this little Pseudo-Marvel Universe, kind of like the 2099 line (and Ultimates will probably join it and the New Universe in a few years).   Either reboot the continuity or don't.  

Also, there's something else that bothers me that I can't articulate.  It's like this weird "Best Of..." series that's feeding off the good stuff while cutting out everything the fans aren't familiar with.  I flipped through one of the Spider-Man TPBs and Peter appears to be dating Mary Jane and it looks like she knows he's Spider-Man.  Part of what made those characters interesting is that they grew over time.  Just cutting to the "good parts" loses something.   Just buy the "Essential" TPBs and you'll get all the good parts there.

There's a website dedicated to black superheroes.  Don't ask me for the URL, I don't have it saved.  I lost interest in it due to one idiot constantly posting really stupid and racist things (like how there are so few black characters in fantasy films because it's "a white man's fantasy that there are no black people" or that all comic publishers are involved some bizarre conspiracy to distance black superheroes from their audience by doing things like having Blade cut his hair in a way that no black man would   ).  Anyway, they asked comic professionals why black superhero comics never sell well.  One answer was quite interesting.  He pointed out that, aside from Wolverine, nearly all superheroes are from the Golden Age or were created by Stan Lee.  

That kind of shocked me because it looks to be true.  Granted, in some cases you have a character like the Flash who is a modern character (or Silver Age depending on when Kid Flash was created), but the name "Flash" has the Golden Age history.  

I'm not sure if it speaks ill of the audience, who won't accept anything new, or the writers, who don't have the talent to create anything original that's good.  

Truth to be told, most comic writers couldn't cut it if they had to try writing a novel or a screenplay.  A lot of people have praised the Punisher maxi-series Welcome Back, Frank.  However, having recently read it, it really isn't that good.  Most of it doesn't seem to go anywhere (you only really needed 6 issues to tell this story, not 12) and a lot of it is just trying to be gross or shocking ("Lick my scabs!").  And, let's face it, the humor just wasn't that funny.  A fat guy who gets stuck in his doorway and has a lot of heart attacks?  A guy with piercing who does nothing other than say, "Spacker Dave!" for 99% of the book?  There's no great writing here.

Anyway, the Ultimates line is like Hollywood's remake machine.  As someone said in the other thread, these classic movies are classic for a reason.   The same is true for the comics.   

Oh well, sorry for the rant.  I now return this hijack to it's regular thread.


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## Desdichado (Jun 17, 2004)

I understand, Villano.  I also totally disagree.    Not only are the Ultimates the best things Marvel's done in years (IMO, anyway) they're also the best selling, acording to industry publications.  I think the Ultimate universe is here to stay, at least for quite a while.

Frankly, all those years of continuity _has_ created a lot of baggage, most of it incredibly corny.  It's nice to see it done away with.


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## Welverin (Jun 17, 2004)

Mog Elffoe said:
			
		

> As far as the series' 'nastiness' goes my major gripe is with the Hulk eating people.  Sorry, but he can't be a hero I can root for in any fashion after eating people.




I'd say it's a  mistake thinking of him as a hero to begin with, though as I recall Bruce was rather dsigusted with the fact he did that himself.



			
				DanMcS said:
			
		

> Very sad to hear about the hiatus.  They're trying to drive me to Ultimate Spider-Man, aren't they, the finks.




I think it's a better book anyway, so give it a try. It's rather different from The Ultimates, so I won't guarantee you'll like it, but t is highly likely.



> Hey, might as well ask here...  At comic shops, I've seen paperbacks called "Ultimate Team-Up" and "Ultimate Five", something like that.




Mog already covered UMT, but didn't mention Ultimate Six (not Five), so I'll cover that. US was a mini-series about Spidey and and his main enemies having a reunion. I want to say it's just the Ultimate version of Sinister Six, but I don't think I'm familiar with the original to say for sure.



			
				Villano said:
			
		

> I haven't read any of the Ultimate series.  I have to say that I really don't like this idea.




I really suggest you actually read some of the books, I'd suggest starting with the first USM TPB.



> It's sort of like they wanted to do a Crisis On Infinite Earths, but didn't have the guts to go through with it.




Problem with this is it would have pissed off all the readers of the existing books. After all doesn't DC get a lot of flak for there numerous reboots?

Also it was originally intended to be for newer readers and anyone else put off by thirty years (or more) of continuity that was impossible to get a handle of with out reading for a long time.



> Now, you have this little Pseudo-Marvel Universe, kind of like the 2099 line (and Ultimates will probably join it and the New Universe in a few years).




Well it's already a few years old and doesn't seem to be slowing down any, so long as they don't oversaturate the line and the quality stays as high as it has been there's no danger that it will diappear.


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## Mog Elffoe (Jun 17, 2004)

I can see where you're coming from, Villano, but if they're good stories why not enjoy them for what they are?  

The 2099 and New Universe lines went away because they didn't sell well (I don't know exact numbers, and what was considered a profitable book back then is probably way different than nowadays.)  The Ultimate line of books are consistently at the top the of the charts.  I'd be willing to say it's at least partially because they're good books.  I remember back in the day when those NU books came out.  I got every one of them.  The first six or so issues of _Star Brand _ were pretty good, what with John Romita Jr doing the artwork, and I really liked a lot of the ideas and concepts in _DP7_, but the rest of those books simply were NOT GOOD.  I did pick up a few of the 2099 books.  _Spider-Man 2099_ had a few moments that were so-so and I liked the concepts for the _Doom 2099 _ book, but again the rest were just NOT GOOD and these two slipped in quality very fast.  Quality talent is currently working  on the Ultimate titles and that shows.  I don't always like everything they do but their track record isn't bad at all.  I don't see the Ultimate books going away any time soon at all.

I LOVE the Essential books Marvel's been putting out.  I LOVE reading the classic _Spider-Man _ stories.  I also LOVE _Ultimate Spider-Man_.  There's no reason not to enjoy the best of both worlds, man.


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## Welverin (Jun 17, 2004)

Mog Elffoe said:
			
		

> I LOVE the Essential books Marvel's been putting out.  I LOVE reading the classic _Spider-Man _ stories.  I also LOVE _Ultimate Spider-Man_.  There's no reason not to enjoy the best of both worlds, man.




This reminded me of the fact that when USM first started it was the first good Spidey book Marvel had put out in years.


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## Green Knight (Jun 17, 2004)

Ehhh, after reading this thread I'm starting to think that my decision to stay out of comics was a good one. 

Cannibalistic Hulk?!?  Hank Pym beating his wife? There's realism, and then there's taking a dump all over the characters. Take a show like* Homicide: Life on the Street*. There was only one, MAYBE two characters who had flaws anywhere NEAR the flaws which these characters have. Yet wasn't that show gritty and realistic? Realism doesn't require that you make the characters' complete bastards. 

I did some checking up, and I just had to laugh when I read a couple of reviews of some Ultimate issues, where the reviewer is effusive about the "realism" of the story, and in the same breath he's talking about how Pym, after beating Janet, unleashes a horde of ants on her. Yeah, whenever I'm beating my wife I make sure to take the time out to agitate the hell out of a swarm of ants to get them to attack her. :\ Or how Betty Ross left Banner for Freddie Prinze Jr. Or Nick Fury slipping Captain America the* Undercover Brother Formula*. WTF?  Does ANY of that even sound REMOTELY realistic? Raise your hand if your girlfriend's left you for Freddie Prinze Jr., or any other Hollywood star, or if you think the government works on things like Undercover Brother Formulas. 

Eh, I don't know. To often, phrases like "gritty realism" are used as if they're always synonymous with brutal characters, grotesque actions, and the frequent use of swear words. If that were the case, then movies like Hellraiser, which feature plenty of gore and human depravity, would be considered far more gritty and realistic then movies like Seven, which shows very little gore, and only has one depraved human who rarely makes an appearance until the end. That's not mature storytelling. That's what a 12-year-old thinks is mature storytelling. 

Ah well. I've still got to get my mitts on back issues of* Transformers: The War Within*.


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## your father is (Jun 17, 2004)

^I felt exactly the same way as you, but ULTIMATES got me back into comics after a ten year absence.  It simply rocks.  I cannot wait for the Hard Cover.

  But don't take my word for it -- read issues #1 - 3 free right here.


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## billd91 (Jun 17, 2004)

Green Knight said:
			
		

> Ehhh, after reading this thread I'm starting to think that my decision to stay out of comics was a good one.
> 
> Cannibalistic Hulk?!?  Hank Pym beating his wife? There's realism, and then there's taking a dump all over the characters. Take a show like* Homicide: Life on the Street*. There was only one, MAYBE two characters who had flaws anywhere NEAR the flaws which these characters have. Yet wasn't that show gritty and realistic? Realism doesn't require that you make the characters' complete bastards.
> 
> I did some checking up, and I just had to laugh when I read a couple of reviews of some Ultimate issues, where the reviewer is effusive about the "realism" of the story, and in the same breath he's talking about how Pym, after beating Janet, unleashes a horde of ants on her. Yeah, whenever I'm beating my wife I make sure to take the time out to agitate the hell out of a swarm of ants to get them to attack her. :\ Or how Betty Ross left Banner for Freddie Prinze Jr. Or Nick Fury slipping Captain America the* Undercover Brother Formula*. WTF?  Does ANY of that even sound REMOTELY realistic? Raise your hand if your girlfriend's left you for Freddie Prinze Jr., or any other Hollywood star, or if you think the government works on things like Undercover Brother Formulas.





I think you're relying on other people's reviews too much without checking it out for yourself. Some of the stuff you're talking about here isn't too accurate. Betty doesn't leave Banner for Freddy Prinze, Jr. They were already estranged before that. Undercover Brother Formula? I've read the issues and I think someone's mistaking banter for real events. Flaws in their character? Most of them already had these or similar flaws, it's just that they are being emphasized in the Ultimates story line (or don't you remember Pym having serious psychological issues that actually did leave him to hit his wife and the estrangement of their marriage? Or Tony Stark's alcoholism and Don Juanism? Or Cap's occasional stiff-necked attitudes? Or Hulk's irrational violent impulses?).


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## DanMcS (Jun 17, 2004)

Green Knight said:
			
		

> I did some checking up, and I just had to laugh when I read a couple of reviews of some Ultimate issues, where the reviewer is effusive about the "realism" of the story, and in the same breath he's talking about how Pym, after beating Janet, unleashes a horde of ants on her. Yeah, whenever I'm beating my wife I make sure to take the time out to agitate the hell out of a swarm of ants to get them to attack her. :\ Or how Betty Ross left Banner for Freddie Prinze Jr. Or Nick Fury slipping Captain America the* Undercover Brother Formula*.




Read the comics, not someone's snide "review".  There is nothing anywhere about an undercover brother formula.

The Betty Ross date with FPJr thing occupied about 4 panels, and was amusing to me- you have superheros who have public acknowledgement and government backing.  They are going to end up as celebrities.  Take that and run with it for a minute, and you get the X-Men on the cover of magazines (from some of the UXM comics), the Ultimates visiting the white house for dinners, talk amongst the troops about movie deals, dating other celebrities, and stuff like that.  After they beat the crap out of the Hulk, the DVD of the fight (as filmed from SHIELD choppers, I guess) became a best-seller.  It was snide commentary on society.

I liked it, anyway.


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## Villano (Jun 17, 2004)

Welverin said:
			
		

> I really suggest you actually read some of the books, I'd suggest starting with the first USM TPB.
> 
> Also it was originally intended to be for newer readers and anyone else put off by thirty years (or more) of continuity that was impossible to get a handle of with out reading for a long time.




The problem is that I've already read these stories in the regular Marvel Universe.   It's like buying a "best of tape" for a series I've already seen.




> Problem with this is it would have pissed off all the readers of the existing books. After all doesn't DC get a lot of flak for there numerous reboots?




Well, with the Crisis, people got over it pretty fast.  The problem is that, as you pointed out, DC has done numerous reboots.  Now, you have Zero Hour and Hyper-Time and all that crap.  

If Marvel would do one good reboot and have the writers stick to it (unlike the mess that the post-Crisis Hawkman caused), people would adapt.  If they kept pulling a Zero Hour every five year, then you would have problems.

Anyway, I don't think I'd read Ultimates anyway since Millar is writing it.  I'll never read any of his books because:




			
				Mog Elffoe said:
			
		

> Also, Millar usually presents military types as being unsavory, unscrupulous, or both.  I'm not in the military myself or anything, but it comes across clear to me that Millar is biased against the U.S. and also military types in general.




He's been quite vocal with his Anti-American statements.  I won't go into them here since politics are off-limits.  But I don't want to support a guy in his efforts to play out his prejudices.

Also, the man has no respect for superhero comics, such as descibing Superman is really a villain and saying, "Could Superman really be described as a hero when all he ever did was reinforce the world's unjust status quo?" and describing Batman as an "Al Qaeda-like figure" (I seemed to have missed the issue where Batman kills thousands of people and advocated the abuse and degradation of women).

On top of that, the guy is just a fruitcake.  He's said some really strange things like how he lives in Scotland and has never seen a black person and wants to date a black woman for the "novelty" of it.   Er, yeah.


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## Mog Elffoe (Jun 18, 2004)

It seems that you've certainly made up your mind, Villano, and that's too bad.  I can definitely understand boycotting Millar's work for the reasons you stated, but you're missing out on some great comics by skipping _Ultimate Spider-Man_.

BTW, do you have a link or anything to the stuff you posted about Millar?  It certainly does sound like something he'd say, and I'd like to read some more.

Thanks!


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## Villano (Jun 18, 2004)

Mog Elffoe said:
			
		

> It seems that you've certainly made up your mind, Villano, and that's too bad.  I can definitely understand boycotting Millar's work for the reasons you stated, but you're missing out on some great comics by skipping _Ultimate Spider-Man_.
> 
> BTW, do you have a link or anything to the stuff you posted about Millar?  It certainly does sound like something he'd say, and I'd like to read some more.
> 
> Thanks!




I don't live near any comic shops.  The closest thing is a Barnes & Nobles in NY.  Next time I get up there, I'll try to pick up a Spider-Man TPB.   

I've seen Millar say these things on several websites, but I only have a link to one.  It's super political (lots of "Hitler" and "Nazi" analogies), so I don't want to post it.  I've seen too many sites go up in flames when politics is discussed and I don't want to do that here.  If you want it, I'd rather e-mail it to you.  I tried to use the PM or e-mail by clicking your name, but I get a message that I'm not authorized to use that function.  Am I doing something wrong, or is that down?  :\ 

BTW, just to put things in perspective with my dislike of Millar, I'd also refuse to buy anything produced by someone who said anti-semetic or racist things or was just a plain jerk.  I know there are people who say that you should separate the art from the artist.  I can accept that.  I just don't think I should have to help them make their livings.

I'm not telling people here not to buy the book because of the way I feel.  If you enjoy it, good for you.  I might even now be reading a comic written or drawn by someone you think is a jerk.


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## Mog Elffoe (Jun 18, 2004)

Villano said:
			
		

> I've seen Millar say these things on several websites, but I only have a link to one.  It's super political (lots of "Hitler" and "Nazi" analogies), so I don't want to post it.  I've seen too many sites go up in flames when politics is discussed and I don't want to do that here.  If you want it, I'd rather e-mail it to you.  I tried to use the PM or e-mail by clicking your name, but I get a message that I'm not authorized to use that function.  Am I doing something wrong, or is that down?  :\




I just set up my profile so you can either download my 'v-card' or message me via Yahoo! Messenger.  Whatever works for you.

Thanks!


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## Villano (Jun 18, 2004)

Mog Elffoe said:
			
		

> I just set up my profile so you can either download my 'v-card' or message me via Yahoo! Messenger.  Whatever works for you.
> 
> Thanks!




I downloaded your V-Card and sent you an e-mail.  Sorry it took so long, but we had a thunderstorm here and the phone line went down, and with it my internet access.  It just came back up.


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## AFGNCAAP (Jun 18, 2004)

Well, I'm ambivalent about the Ultimates.  I love some of the costume redesigns (like Cap's & Thor's), but hate others (like the Iron Man suit).  Some of the stories have been interesting, but then again  .  .  .

Part of me _really_ feels that _Ultimates_ is basically the Avengers done Authority-style.  In a way, I feel that one of the key factors of why Ultimates is selling is just due to Millar's name being attached--not for his writing, not for the story in the books, but just for his name.  Not much different than someone years ago picking up whatever Todd McFarlane had his named attached to.


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## DarkSoldier (Jun 18, 2004)

Villano said:
			
		

> I tried to use the PM or e-mail by clicking your name, but I get a message that I'm not authorized to use that function.  Am I doing something wrong, or is that down?  :\



You have to be an ENWorld donor to use the Private Message, Who's Online, and Search features.


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## beta-ray (Jun 18, 2004)

Villano said:
			
		

> I haven't read any of the Ultimate series.  I have to say that I really don't like this idea.  It's sort of like they wanted to do a Crisis On Infinite Earths, but didn't have the guts to go through with it.   Now, you have this little Pseudo-Marvel Universe, kind of like the 2099 line (and Ultimates will probably join it and the New Universe in a few years).   Either reboot the continuity or don't.




Well, that's fine if you don't like the idea... but I don't think the only way to do it is reboot or don't, nor do I see it as a lesser "Crisis"... Just a different method. Hard to judge the motivation of the creators. I don't know if you can really judge it if you haven't read it. 

Honestly, I don't read the Ultimate line... I read a lot of other comics and just haven't decided to invest the money into it. *shrug*



> Also, there's something else that bothers me that I can't articulate.  It's like this weird "Best Of..." series that's feeding off the good stuff while cutting out everything the fans aren't familiar with.  I flipped through one of the Spider-Man TPBs and Peter appears to be dating Mary Jane and it looks like she knows he's Spider-Man.  Part of what made those characters interesting is that they grew over time.  Just cutting to the "good parts" loses something.   Just buy the "Essential" TPBs and you'll get all the good parts there.




Well it's also there to give people the opportunity to buy those issues without spending tons of money. Not everything is continuity driven in comics. I don't know which of the "Best of" compilations you saw, but often they are in order, taking chunks of storylines. Maybe you just picked up a more recent collection?



> There's a website dedicated to black superheroes.  Don't ask me for the URL, I don't have it saved.  I lost interest in it due to one idiot constantly posting really stupid and racist things (like how there are so few black characters in fantasy films because it's "a white man's fantasy that there are no black people" or that all comic publishers are involved some bizarre conspiracy to distance black superheroes from their audience by doing things like having Blade cut his hair in a way that no black man would   ).




Not sure what this has to do with anything...



> Anyway, they asked comic professionals why black superhero comics never sell well.  One answer was quite interesting.  He pointed out that, aside from Wolverine, nearly all superheroes are from the Golden Age or were created by Stan Lee.
> 
> That kind of shocked me because it looks to be true.  Granted, in some cases you have a character like the Flash who is a modern character (or Silver Age depending on when Kid Flash was created), but the name "Flash" has the Golden Age history.
> 
> ...




*shrug* Different mediums... why is the comparison relevant? And since you said most, maybe that's true. But some can and do. Also, the reverse may be true as well.



> A lot of people have praised the Punisher maxi-series Welcome Back, Frank.  However, having recently read it, it really isn't that good.  Most of it doesn't seem to go anywhere (you only really needed 6 issues to tell this story, not 12) and a lot of it is just trying to be gross or shocking ("Lick my scabs!").  And, let's face it, the humor just wasn't that funny.  A fat guy who gets stuck in his doorway and has a lot of heart attacks?  A guy with piercing who does nothing other than say, "Spacker Dave!" for 99% of the book?  There's no great writing here.
> 
> Anyway, the Ultimates line is like Hollywood's remake machine.  As someone said in the other thread, these classic movies are classic for a reason.   The same is true for the comics.
> 
> Oh well, sorry for the rant.  I now return this hijack to it's regular thread.




I don't fully understand the comparison to the remake machine entirely... At least they are indicating the new line of comics in the title... No one is saying that they are trying to overtake the classics (though Ultimate Spider-Man is doing VERY well)... Maybe these comics are not for you, but I fail to see how they are somehow WRONG.


----------



## beta-ray (Jun 18, 2004)

Green Knight said:
			
		

> Ehhh, after reading this thread I'm starting to think that my decision to stay out of comics was a good one.




Aw that's too bad, comics could use more readers...



> Cannibalistic Hulk?!?  Hank Pym beating his wife? There's realism, and then there's taking a dump all over the characters. Take a show like* Homicide: Life on the Street*. There was only one, MAYBE two characters who had flaws anywhere NEAR the flaws which these characters have. Yet wasn't that show gritty and realistic? Realism doesn't require that you make the characters' complete bastards.




Wow how long have you been out of comics? Though it may not have been a beating, Hank Pym did hit his wife in the "normal" Marvel U. That's probably where they got it.



> Eh, I don't know. To often, phrases like "gritty realism" are used as if they're always synonymous with brutal characters, grotesque actions, and the frequent use of swear words. If that were the case, then movies like Hellraiser, which feature plenty of gore and human depravity, would be considered far more gritty and realistic then movies like Seven, which shows very little gore, and only has one depraved human who rarely makes an appearance until the end. That's not mature storytelling. That's what a 12-year-old thinks is mature storytelling.
> 
> Ah well. I've still got to get my mitts on back issues of* Transformers: The War Within*.




Not that it's "gritty realism" but i find it funny that you have a graphic of Dr. Weird in your post... talk about depravity! And I LIKE ATHF...


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## Mog Elffoe (Jun 18, 2004)

Green Knight said:
			
		

> Ehhh, after reading this thread I'm starting to think that my decision to stay out of comics was a good one.




I agree with beta-ray (dude needs to get a horse avatar...)--there's no need to give up on comics just because one title doesn't sound like it'd be your cup of tea.  That's like giving up on movies altogether because you decided to go to the theater to see _Freddy Got Fingered_.

There are plenty of comics out there that are not 'brutal and grotesque' and are still good reading.


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## Mark_Aurel (Jun 18, 2004)

Villano said:
			
		

> The problem is that I've already read these stories in the regular Marvel Universe.   It's like buying a "best of tape" for a series I've already seen.
> 
> Well, with the Crisis, people got over it pretty fast.  The problem is that, as you pointed out, DC has done numerous reboots.  Now, you have Zero Hour and Hyper-Time and all that crap.
> 
> ...




Okay, I normally lurk, but I felt I had to respond to this last part, since it seems pretty inaccurate, at least in parts. 

Mark Millar is, as far as I can tell, a very, very big Superman fan. He loves Superman. He wrote Red Son, which is one of the best Superman stories to appear in recent years. It's close to a perfect rendition of Superman. Mark Millar has also been writing Superman Adventures, the comic version of the Superman Animated Series - and he's done a good job at it.

A few years ago, there was talk about doing a big Superman revamp. Four writers got together with a proposal for DC for the elements that needed to change in order to make the Superman titles better. The four writers were Mark Millar, Mark Waid, Grant Morrison, and Tom Peyer. All those writers have a great deal of love for Superman. Mark Waid co-wrote Kingdom Come, and is the current writer of Superman: Birthright. Grant Morrison showed his appreciation for the character in the pages of JLA. And Mark Millar did Red Son. For a while, there was some speculation that Mark Millar would be doing the script for the Superman movie, based on the strength of Red Son.

Finally, Mark Millar and Bryan Hitch have a stated goal of getting a Superman run a few years down the line - both are very eager for it, because they love Superman.

Any report that Mark Millar hates Superman or thinks Superman is a villain would more than likely either be a misunderstanding or a crock.

As for 'Anti-Americanism,' he's Scottish, and his father was engaged in left-wing politics. I've never seen Millar express any specific hatred or malice towards the USA, however. Different perspective or worldview than an American? You bet. Portraying Americans or American superheroes as being not any more perfect than the rest of us? Sure. Not reading a book because the author comes from a different political background than yourself sounds a bit narrowminded, to be honest.

As for living in Scotland, he does. And that line about black people sounds like some throwaway joke more than anything else. I can imagine that Millar might have a more ... coarse sense of humor than you or I do. Most Scottish people I've met do. 

And I really, really like the Ultimate books.


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## Mark_Aurel (Jun 18, 2004)

DanMcS said:
			
		

> Since I'm the reader being quoted here, I'll point out that I said the writing was brilliant, not the plan.  The plan entertained me, which was really all I was looking for.
> 
> Very sad to hear about the hiatus.  They're trying to drive me to Ultimate Spider-Man, aren't they, the finks.
> 
> ...




I'm going to take a gander you were thinking of 'Ultimate Six.' There's been a couple of Ultimate miniseries so far, to showcase specific events. I guess you could call it a sort of a 'not-quite fill-in' fill-in type of book due to the sporadic schedule the Ultimates have come out on. The first was 'Ultimate War,' which was basically the Ultimates vs the Ultimate X-Men, where Magneto escapes incarceration, which leads to the rather typical 'misunderstandings.' It was a bit disappointing, and it didn't even conclude properly in the mini, but led into Ultimate X-Men instead. 'Ultimate Six' was basically the story of the villains Spider-Man has fought; they escape, team up under Norman Osborn's leadership, and the Ultimates have to take them down. It's basically an Ultimate version of the Sinister Six. Ultimate Six is actually quite good, at least if you're jonesin' for the next volume of Ultimates (which is scheduled for October, and this time, they've sworn to God and all that is Holy that they'll keep the monthly schedule, since Hitch has built up a catalog of already finished issues.)

Also in the series of Ultimate crossovers is the upcoming 'Ultimate Nightmare' by Warren Ellis. Ellis has also taken over Ultimate Fantastic Four, and his first issue (#7) was very good, featuring our first look at Ultimate Doom. The armor was a bit ... chilling.


----------



## Piratecat (Jun 18, 2004)

Welverin said:
			
		

> This reminded me of the fact that when USM first started it was the first good Spidey book Marvel had put out in years.




Ultimate Spiderman started me reading Marvel comicbooks again. The other Ultimate titles are good, but Ultimate Spidey is consistently the best comic I'm currently buying. Great stuff.


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## billd91 (Jun 18, 2004)

Villano said:
			
		

> I haven't read any of the Ultimate series.  I have to say that I really don't like this idea.  It's sort of like they wanted to do a Crisis On Infinite Earths, but didn't have the guts to go through with it.   Now, you have this little Pseudo-Marvel Universe, kind of like the 2099 line (and Ultimates will probably join it and the New Universe in a few years).   Either reboot the continuity or don't.  )




I don't think there's a parallel at all with DC's continuity reboots. The ultimate books aren't taking over the continuities in the main line of titles. They are alternate stories based off the same characters in somewhat different settings, one's a bit more grounded in our contemporary reality than the other comics (which generally tend to avoid contemporary reality to avoid getting too dated or getting too out of synch with reality).


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## Mog Elffoe (Jun 18, 2004)

Mark_Aurel said:
			
		

> Mark Millar is, as far as I can tell, a very, very big Superman fan. He loves Superman. He wrote Red Son, which is one of the best Superman stories to appear in recent years. It's close to a perfect rendition of Superman. Mark Millar has also been writing Superman Adventures, the comic version of the Superman Animated Series - and he's done a good job at it.




Uh...  What version of _Superman: Red Son _ did you read?  Superman becomes a global dictator in that book, who lobotomizes his enemies using super science, and follows in Stalin's footsteps.  That's a 'close to perfect rendition' of Superman?  Wha...!?  Okay, your idea of Superman and my idea of Superman are WA-A-A-AY different...

I did like _Red Son_, as an Elseworlds story.  It was a good read, mainly for the Lex Luthor character and how his storyline plays out.

I do believe that Millar has an affection for Superman, though.  His _Adventures of Superman_ comics were excellent.  If you wanted to say that Millar presented a 'close to perfect rendition' of Superman in those comics I'd be more inclined to agree with you.  

In _Red Son_, though?  No way.  Not even close.  That was the point of the Superman character in _Red Son_.


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## Mark_Aurel (Jun 18, 2004)

Mog Elffoe said:
			
		

> Uh...  What version of _Superman: Red Son _ did you read?  Superman becomes a global dictator in that book, who lobotomizes his enemies using super science, and follows in Stalin's footsteps.  That's a 'close to perfect rendition' of Superman?  Wha...!?  Okay, your idea of Superman and my idea of Superman are WA-A-A-AY different...
> 
> I did like _Red Son_, as an Elseworlds story.  It was a good read, mainly for the Lex Luthor character and how his storyline plays out.
> 
> ...




I would respectfully disagree with that. Superman in Red Son is one of the first renditions of Superman in quite a while to capture an essential 'Superman-ness' that's usually missing from the monthlies. All the essential elements of the mythos is there, bar kryptonite, though in different and unique ways. 

One of the more interesting aspects of the Superman character has always been his sociological impact. Superman has usually in the comics tended to adopt a passive stance with regards to humanity - he will fix big natural disasters and save lives, beat down alien invasions and such, but usually try to leave human social and technological development alone. There is a number of Superman stories in which he crosses that line, and those are remarkable for that reason alone. This issue, of Superman's sociological impact on humanity, was addressed by Elliot S. Maggin in the Silver Age, often considered the definitive Superman writer, when Superman was essentially put on trial by a cosmic tribunal of sorts. There have been many tales since in the same vein, such as the Armageddon 2001 Annual Elseworlds special from '91, where Superman becomes president of the US, or the more recent Superman: King of the World. Red Son is, in many ways, a more extended version of this kind of take on the character. The Superman movie (the first one, which is also by far the best) also had a very strong emphasis on this motif, with Jor-El's doctrine of non-interference in human history, which Superman violates in the end to save Lois Lane.

Superman's motives in Red Son are inherently good. The triggering event that caused him to embark on the path he took was in issue #1, when he met Lana, and saw that people were starving, due to the inefficiencies of the communist system. 'Tell your friends they don't have to be scared or hungry anymore, comrades. Superman is here to rescue them.' That's a fairly nice and representative slogan for Superman, wouldn't you say? That's what his mission in this book is. To better humanity's lot. 

Now, a core conflict in Superman's character has always been the perfection - the 'super' - against the humanity. Superman isn't flawless. He makes mistakes. In Red Son, his mistake is that in saving humanity, he also makes humanity dependent upon him, taking away all freedom. The reprogrammed insurgents are both symbolic of this, and a form of foreshadowing. It is perhaps a somewhat blunt way of showing exactly where Superman is going too far.

In the end, the defining moment of the book is when Superman realizes his error. When all hope seems lost, all resistance crushed, the single sentence that Luthor composed shows him his mistake. It is then shown that he has been manipulated by Brainiac for years; that is also shown previously in the conversations in #3. In this part of the story, Superman's defeat of Brainiac is highly symbolic of his coming to the realization that controlling humanity the way he has done is wrong. His final, heroic act, is to save the Earth from the exploding Brainiac vessel. That is also a thoroughly Superman-esque act, in the non-interventionistic sense. Self-sacrificing, noble, and heroic.

Unlike a real dictator, Superman was never evil, vicious, or paranoid. He had certain ideals that he stood by. They were essentially the same as the regular Superman's, but colored by his communist background. That said, this story doesn't really have political undertones as much as it uses the political backdrop to tell a specific type of story, set in a familiar style. Any dictator is bad, no matter which 'system' or 'ideology' he confesses to. But sometimes, a dictator is better than the alternative.

There have been other Superman stories which went in similar ways - Kingdom Come is one example. Superman makes mistake upon mistake in how he handles things, and in the end, it all comes crashing down on him. Kingdom Come has a lot of similarities to Red Son in that regard, except that there, Superman isn't alone. Kingdom Come had other themes too, such as the very 90ish conflict between 'humanity and superhumanity.'

Red Son is a brilliant take on Superman, because it addresses not just most of the famous elements of the Superman mythology, and some of the DCU, but because of the way Superman is portrayed. As ever, he wants to help people - but he makes a mistake and goes too far. When he realizes it, he drops it all in the blink of an eye. It's also great how Millar manages to paint both Luthor and Superman as both hero and villain, and make it believeable, while staying true to the genre.

In terms of being a Superman story, there's much more depth to this than 'Superman becomes a global dictator.' It's a story that actually has a heart. And it has a great ending. Last time there was a Superman story with similar heart in the main books was Action #775 - Superman vs the Elite [Authority]. And before that, you have to really start reaching deep into the barrel. Godfall tried, but didn't quite make it, IMO.


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## Mog Elffoe (Jun 18, 2004)

Sorry about the thread hijack here, DanMcS.



			
				Mark_Aurel said:
			
		

> Superman's motives in Red Son are inherently good. The triggering event that caused him to embark on the path he took was in issue #1, when he met Lana, and saw that people were starving, due to the inefficiencies of the communist system. 'Tell your friends they don't have to be scared or hungry anymore, comrades. Superman is here to rescue them.' That's a fairly nice and representative slogan for Superman, wouldn't you say? That's what his mission in this book is. To better humanity's lot.




Sure, Superman's _motives_ are good, but the means he uses to achieve these ends most definitely are not.  Lobotomizing everyone who thinks differently than you is not good, no matter how you present it.  You might make the argument that Brainiac influenced those decisions, but the simple fact of the matter is those aren't the kinds of things a 'close to perfect rendition' of Superman would do.  I enjoyed _Red Son _ a good deal, but that statement is simply wrong.  Sorry.


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## Mark_Aurel (Jun 18, 2004)

Mog Elffoe said:
			
		

> Sorry about the thread hijack here, DanMcS.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, Superman's _motives_ are good, but the means he uses to achieve these ends most definitely are not.  Lobotomizing everyone who thinks differently than you is not good, no matter how you present it.  You might make the argument that Brainiac influenced those decisions, but the simple fact of the matter is those aren't the kinds of things a 'close to perfect rendition' of Superman would do.  I enjoyed _Red Son _ a good deal, but that statement is simply wrong.  Sorry.




How exactly do you pronounce an opinion to be wrong? I might as well say that since you're probably less knowledgeable of Superman than I am, you're wrong. I'm not, however, because your opinion is your opinion, and you're entitled to that.

Now, if your point is coming down to the human reprogramming deal, fine. You're still putting it in the wrong light. Superman didn't lobotomize everyone that thought differently than him. He lobotomized those that threatened the stability of the state - criminals and rebels. I didn't see him suppressing dissenting opinions any more than he conquered the world by force of arms. He wanted to convince everyone he was right by peaceful means. The scene where he talks to Brainiac in #3 is very telling that regard.

Now, there's the moral implications and questions of the method used. Superman has long had a code against killing. Superman doesn't kill. Period. Is messing with someone's mind worse? Would it be better to have the 'criminal impulses' removed from one's brain? Today, we sometimes perform chemical castrations on pedophiles, 'reprogramming' their sex drives. Is that inherently wrong? They become better citizens afterwards. Or, for that matter, was it right of Superman all those times back in the day when he'd use super-hypnosis to hide his secret identity?

Now, I don't think the whole reprogramming thing was right. I do think it can be considered justifiable to some, and I do think it's a method our society would actually consider in some cases, were it available. I think it was very symbolic of what he was doing on a larger scale, however. It showed on an individual scale what his rulership did to all of humanity. The rulership being a monumental mistake he repented and reversed in the blink of an eye. 

A lot of what Superman is about is the conflict between the human and the godly. It's a pretty central theme. In this case, he overstepped his limits, and tried to be too much God. No man, no matter how great, should have absolute rulership over all other men. Rulership wasn't an end, but a means to an end. It's just that the means undermined the meaning of the end, which is the central realization for Superman in the story, and which restores the human balance to his character. This is pretty clearly symbolized by Clark Kent at Luthor's funeral later on.

Now, if there ever was a moment of truly undermining who and what Superman is, it wasn't in Red Son. Try the final Superman issue of the Byrne run for that.


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## Viking Bastard (Jun 18, 2004)

Is that the one where he kills the Kryptonian criminals of the Pocket universe?


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## Villano (Jun 18, 2004)

beta-ray said:
			
		

> Not sure what this has to do with anything...




I was just setting up where I got what I next posted.  I figured that if I said that I got the info off of a site dedicated to black superheroes, someone would say, "What's the URL?" (I know I would have   ).  Then I would have to explain that I don't know because I don't go there anymore and why.  I figured that I could save time by getting that all out at the beginning.




> *shrug* Different mediums... why is the comparison relevant? And since you said most, maybe that's true. But some can and do. Also, the reverse may be true as well.
> 
> I don't fully understand the comparison to the remake machine entirely... At least they are indicating the new line of comics in the title...




That was in reference to my comments, "I'm not sure if it speaks ill of the audience, who won't accept anything new, or the writers, who don't have the talent to create anything original that's good", and, later, "Truth to be told, most comic writers couldn't cut it if they had to try writing a novel or a screenplay."  I was pointing out that writers of today don't seem capable of original ideas that can stand on their own merit.

Spider-Man, along with Superman and Batman, have, what, 5 titles each?  Add to that the team books and team-ups.  Now we have the Ultimate line which focus on the same characters that Stan Lee or, in the case of Captain America, Golden Age writers created.  

It's ike Hollywood and its focus on sequels and remakes.  It's a sad day for comics when the most original thing they can do is take the same characters and put them in a new universe.




			
				Mark_Aurel said:
			
		

> Any report that Mark Millar hates Superman or thinks Superman is a villain would more than likely either be a misunderstanding or a crock.




I just quote them as I see them.




> As for 'Anti-Americanism,' he's Scottish, and his father was engaged in left-wing politics. I've never seen Millar express any specific hatred or malice towards the USA, however. Different perspective or worldview than an American? You bet.




I'd agree with you if Millar's statements consisted of something more than calling certain politicians "Hitler" and the US "Nazi Germany" over and over and over again.  There's no differing perspectives or worldviews there, just hurled insults.

If you asked me how I felt about, say, Scotland, and I said, "Scotland?  Nazi Germany is more like it.  All the politicians are Hitler wannabes and the Scots are brainwashed sheep.  Living there is like living under Hitler", would you say I was just expressing a different political perspective or that I was spewing hate?

Look, I understand that people in the world have different opinions.  Peter David said he was against the war, but, AFAIK, he never stooped to calling people who disagreed with him "Nazis" or "Hitler".  Millar crossed a line, IMO.




> Not reading a book because the author comes from a different political background than yourself sounds a bit narrowminded, to be honest.




Well, you can belive what you want, but, as I said, I wouldn't buy something by someone who was Anti-Semetic or racist.  It's my money and I simply don't want to give it to someone who's a jerk.




> As for living in Scotland, he does. And that line about black people sounds like some throwaway joke more than anything else. I can imagine that Millar might have a more ... coarse sense of humor than you or I do. Most Scottish people I've met do.




Let me ask you, if Millar said that to a group of black people, would they be offended?  If he then said he was joking, would they be any less offended?




> And I really, really like the Ultimate books.




Well, good for you.  As I said, I'm not telling anyone not to buy it, just why I won't.


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## Mog Elffoe (Jun 18, 2004)

Mark_Aurel said:
			
		

> How exactly do you pronounce an opinion to be wrong? I might as well say that since you're probably less knowledgeable of Superman than I am, you're wrong. I'm not, however, because your opinion is your opinion, and you're entitled to that.




Come on.  Anything on a messageboard like this is going to be opinion.  Of course it is.  I can very easily say that it is MY OPINION that YOUR OPINION is wrong.  That's exactly how it works.  Pretty simple.  I will agree that your knowledge of Superman is impressive, and may possibly surpass my own.  Bully for you.



			
				Mark_Aurel said:
			
		

> Now, if there ever was a moment of truly undermining who and what Superman is, it wasn't in Red Son. Try the final Superman issue of the Byrne run for that.




I never said that _Red Son _ undermined anything.  As an Elseworlds story that's not really even an option for it.  I just don't think that any Superman story where he is a dictator that lobotomizes his enemies can be qualified as a 'close to perfect rendition' of the character.  Other than that one statement I agree with practically everything that you said.


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## DanMcS (Jun 18, 2004)

Mog Elffoe said:
			
		

> Sorry about the thread hijack here, DanMcS.




Meh.  Conversations meander, it's not worth worrying about.  Besides, I get to hear of cool things I haven't read yet.


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## Mark_Aurel (Jun 19, 2004)

Viking Bastard said:
			
		

> Is that the one where he kills the Kryptonian criminals of the Pocket universe?




Yep. That's possibly the least Supermanly moment in any core Superman book, ever. He should have found a different way of handling it. What he did just felt a bit too contrived and convenient. They were basically powerless ordinary humans threatening that they'd gain superpowers and come wreck shop at his place too. 

The way it was followed up was pretty good, though.


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## Mark_Aurel (Jun 19, 2004)

DanMcS said:
			
		

> Meh.  Conversations meander, it's not worth worrying about.  Besides, I get to hear of cool things I haven't read yet.




Have you read Authority (the first volume, not the current, which is far inferior) or Planetary? If you like the Ultimates, I'm pretty sure those might be good reads too.

And issue 7 of Ultimate Fantastic Four can be found here, if you haven't read it:

http://www.milehighcomics.com/firstlook/marvel/ultff/

Supreme Power is also very, very good, and currently my favorite comic.


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## Mark_Aurel (Jun 19, 2004)

Villano said:
			
		

> I'd agree with you if Millar's statements consisted of something more than calling certain politicians "Hitler" and the US "Nazi Germany" over and over and over again.  There's no differing perspectives or worldviews there, just hurled insults.
> 
> If you asked me how I felt about, say, Scotland, and I said, "Scotland?  Nazi Germany is more like it.  All the politicians are Hitler wannabes and the Scots are brainwashed sheep.  Living there is like living under Hitler", would you say I was just expressing a different political perspective or that I was spewing hate?
> 
> ...




But where did you dig up those quotes? The only place I know of that Millar regularly posts is http://www.millarworld.biz - and I don't see him post much at the political boards there.


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## Villano (Jun 21, 2004)

Mark_Aurel said:
			
		

> But where did you dig up those quotes? The only place I know of that Millar regularly posts is http://www.millarworld.biz - and I don't see him post much at the political boards there.




Sorry for the late reply.  On Friday, my computer decided to start acting up.  My sister's idiot boyfriend is a supposed computer expert and he said he could fix it for me.  I was worried, but he assured me that he works with computers and he's done this "a million times" and that he would back up all my info on a disc.

So, he replaces some parts and reboots everything.  Then he goes to download the disc...and did I mention he's an idiot?  The disc is blank.  Whatever he did, he did wrong and I lost everything.  All my documents, websites, and even my e-mail.  I mentioned he was an idiot, right?  I spent the weekend trying to replace all my lost stuff.   Losing the pictures and websites was bad, but I could deal with that.  What really pisses me off is the lost e-mail addresses.   

Getting back on topic, I never had links to most of the stuff he said.  Most of it was said on interviews on various comic websites back when the war first started.  As I said earlier, I only had one link, to a German website which I forwarded on to Mog Elffoe, and now I no longer even have that.  Sorry, I wish I could help, but everything is gone.


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## Mog Elffoe (Jun 22, 2004)

I still have that link if anyone is interested.  

The 'lunatics in khaki' comment that Millar makes on it has really stuck with me.


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## Welverin (Jun 25, 2004)

Mog Elffoe said:
			
		

> There are plenty of comics out there that are not 'brutal and grotesque' and are still good reading.




Bone. If you don't like Bone, I hate you.



			
				Piratecat said:
			
		

> Ultimate Spiderman started me reading Marvel comicbooks again. The other Ultimate titles are good, but Ultimate Spidey is consistently the best comic I'm currently buying. Great stuff.




I believe it was the same for me, I had stopped getting pretty much anything from them, but then USM came out and I said “Bendis plus Spidey, how can it be bad?”

To expand on what I said earlier I feel it’s the best Spidey book since Untold Tales of Spider-man, which was by Busiek, so it shouldn’t be surprising it was good.


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## Welverin (Jun 25, 2004)

Villano said:
			
		

> The problem is that I've already read these stories in the regular Marvel Universe.   It's like buying a "best of tape" for a series I've already seen.




But as I said they were intended for people who aren't familiar with them, though I still suggest you give Ultimate Spider-man a chance, if you have a B&N, Borders, or similar store nearby drop in sometime when you have an hour or two and pick up one of the TPB's and start reading.



			
				Mark_Aurel said:
			
		

> Mark Millar is, as far as I can tell, a very, very big Superman fan. He loves Superman. He wrote Red Son, which is one of the best Superman stories to appear in recent years. It's close to a perfect rendition of Superman.




I found it rather forced and don’t feel the characters actions in the second half of the story to be based on anything within, but to be simply a case of Millar saying “Well I want the story to go here so Supes needs to start acting like this now.”


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## Desdichado (Jun 25, 2004)

Welverin said:
			
		

> But as I said they were intended for people who aren't familiar with them, though I still suggest you give Ultimate Spider-man a chance, if you have a B&N, Borders, or similar store nearby drop in sometime when you have an hour or two and pick up one of the TPB's and start reading.



I wonder.  The Amazon reviews say the opposite; that if you know all the backstory, the books are _more_ interesting.  I'm not a Spidey scholar, by any means, but I more or less know the story of the major villains and such.  I'm finding Ultimate Spiderman (and the other Ultimate lines) absolutely fantastic.  Got rid of a lot of the camp of the originals too, which is always a good thing.

In fact, I'm just catching up again on the trade paperbacks.  One of the things I really like about these is that USM is on, what, issue 62 or so in stores now?  And the trade paperbacks already released take you up the mid-fifties in episodes.  They're _really_ on top of those trade paperbacks, which is a better format to read (and collect) the comics, IMO.  And its great not having to wait years to get them.

UXM is just about as good; the trade paperbacks take us up to the late 30s?  Early 40s?  And the issue coming out next week is only 48.


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## Zef (Jun 25, 2004)

Mog Elffoe said:
			
		

> IAs far as the series' 'nastiness' goes my major gripe is with the Hulk eating people.  Sorry, but he can't be a hero I can root for in any fashion after eating people.  That really, really bugs me.




It does seem very strange that a "hero" would be doing this, but I do like the way they write the torment of Banner. The only reason I can think they are doing this is to build up to a big Hulk hero story arc

Zef


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## Mog Elffoe (Jun 25, 2004)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> I wonder.  The Amazon reviews say the opposite; that if you know all the backstory, the books are _more_ interesting.  I'm not a Spidey scholar, by any means, but I more or less know the story of the major villains and such.  I'm finding Ultimate Spiderman (and the other Ultimate lines) absolutely fantastic.  Got rid of a lot of the camp of the originals too, which is always a good thing.




I totally agree with you.  I've been reading Spider-Man since the Roger Stern/John Romita, Jr run back in the early 80s (cannot wait for the Essential Spider-Man to catchup to those...!) and I've read nearly everything before those.  I really, really dig what Bendis does with those old characters and villains, particularly Gwen Stacy.  I was dreading the 'Ultimate Venom,' but I thought what Bendis did with that character was nothing short of incredible.  I stopped getting the regular Marvel continuity Spider-Man in the early nineties when there was that 15-16 issue crossover featuring Venom and Carnage because I thoroughly disliked both of those villains, and now I find myself eagerly anticipating Bendis' version of Carnage.  I think that says a lot, right there.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Jun 26, 2004)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> They're _really_ on top of those trade paperbacks, which is a better format to read (and collect) the comics, IMO.




I understand that Marvel's current pacing seems to be meant for TPBs.  Certainly the comics are much thinner than I remember from the early-mid '90s.

Brad


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## Welverin (Jun 28, 2004)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> I wonder.  The Amazon reviews say the opposite; that if you know all the backstory, the books are _more_ interesting.




I don't see it myself, but then I can't see how it would hurt either.



> They're _really_ on top of those trade paperbacks




Marvel has been significantly more serious about their tpb backlist since Quesada took over, of course the've gone a bit over board what with releasing some trades within weeks of the flast issue being included (e.g. one or two). He's also responsible for attracting the talent that has improved the quality of their books.


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