# Can a Barbarian/Bard inspire courage while raging?



## ForceUser (Apr 7, 2003)

I believe he can. 

Under Barbarian Rage in the PHB, the text states:

"While raging, a barbarian cannot use skills or abilities that require patience and concentration, such as moving silently or casting spells."

Under Bardic Music, the text states:

"Once per day per level, a bard can use his song or poetics to produce magical effects on those around him...while these abilities fall under the category of bardic music, they can include reciting poetry, chanting, singing lyrical songs, singing melodies, whistling, playing an instrument, etc..."

Under the Inspire Courage section of Bardic Music, the text goes on to say:

"While singing, the bard can fight but cannot cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), or activate magic items by magic word (such as wands)."

Since there is nothing explict in the text that states that inspire courage requires concentration, it is my belief that a multiclass barbarian/bard could rage, fight, and sing a glorious song of battle all at the same time. Does anyone disagree? If so, please explain your rationale.


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## Leopold (Apr 7, 2003)

i disbelieve that this is the case. Look your in a frenzy your yelling screaming killing everything in sight, you think your going to be of any mindset to sing a song or shout a chant? I doubt it.

Now taking a feat for this i'd allow or a PrC, but straight up MC'n no way.


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## ForceUser (Apr 7, 2003)

Is that an arbitrary decision, or do you have facts to back up your position? If there are passages of text I have overlooked that would disallow the two abilities from working together, I need to know what they are. Thanks


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## Datt (Apr 7, 2003)

I would say no because I don't think you can actually do any form of the Perform skill without concetrating.  Think about it.  Can you walk along and sing a song without concentrating on singing the song.  You would lose your train of thought and it would go awry.  So to me is says it right here:



> While raging, a barbarian cannot use skills or abilities that require patience and concentration





Simply put you can't inspire courage if you can't concentrate on doing it.


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## ForceUser (Apr 7, 2003)

Inspire courage requires no perform check. You just do it. No check, no skill roll, nothing. Therefore, according to the text that I have read, it is not a concentration skill. If you get attacked in combat and take damage, you don't make a concentration check to see if your inspire courage is interrupted. Ergo, yes, you can do it while raging strictly by the letter of the rules. Can anyone find fault with this?


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## smetzger (Apr 7, 2003)

Leopold said:
			
		

> *i disbelieve that this is the case. Look your in a frenzy your yelling screaming killing everything in sight, you think your going to be of any mindset to sing a song or shout a chant? I doubt it.
> *




If you have ever been to a Heavy Metal concert or Hard Core Punk show you would know that its quite possible.

ForceUser already posted the 'rules' answer.


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## krunchyfrogg (Apr 7, 2003)

Sure you can do it.  Seeing a barbarian cleave his way through his enemies is pretty darn inspirational!


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## Datt (Apr 7, 2003)

Ok how about this:

PHB pg 28:
"As with casting a spell with a verbal component, a deaf bard suffers a 20% chance to fail with bardic music."

So to me that says they are comparing bardic music to casting a spell.  It says you can't cast a spell therefore you couldn't use bardic music.  But then again I might just be trying to connect two unconnected things.


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## The Souljourner (Apr 7, 2003)

Yes, you can sing while raging.  There is no rule to the contrary (and I think it's perfectly acceptable... you're singing a song about chopping off heads and grinding bones, while you're doing just that)

Datt - your logic is faulty.  This is what you're effectively saying:

You can't walk while chewing gum.
Chewing gum for too long makes your jaw sore.
Singing for too long makes your jaw sore.

Therefor, you can't walk while singing.

That makes no sense.

What does being deaf have to do with raging?  They're completely and totally unrelated.  Just because being deaf has similar effects on two things does not mean those two things are completely the same in all ways.

-The Souljourner


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## melkoriii (Apr 7, 2003)

Singing take concentration.  It’s a continuous affect that you must consciously continue or it stops.

I look at Raging as a power that takes concentration.  



> From the SRD
> Concentration: The spell lasts as long as the character concentrates on it. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.
> 
> Anything that could break the character's concentration when casting a spell can also break the character's concentration while the character is maintaining one, causing the spell to end (see Concentration, below). The character can't cast a spell while concentrating on another one. Sometimes a spell lasts for a short time after the character ceases concentrating. In these cases, the spell keeps going for the stated length of time after the character stops concentrating. Otherwise, the character must concentrate to maintain the spell, but the character can't maintain it for more than a stated duration in any event.




Now Bardic Song is just like this but with out the standard action thing.

I would use these rules as they did not clarify any for this kind of situation.


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## The Souljourner (Apr 8, 2003)

It does not take concentration, you are absolutely wrong.  It requires that you sing, no where in the ability does it say anything about concentration.  You cannot stop the bard from singing by hitting him, you cannot stop him from singing by grappling him, he just sings.  Yes, you must consciously continue or stop, but that's true of walking, standing up, keeping your eyes open, etc etc etc.  That doesn't mean you can't do them when you rage.  Anything you can do while doing backflips without penalty I'd say probably doesn't count as requiring concentration.

Rage says you cannot use skills that require patience or concentration.  I've already made my point about concentration.  As for patience, they specifically mention things like moving silently or hiding in shadows.  You're singing *while* you're chopping at your opponent's head.  I don't think that counts as requiring patience.

-The Souljourner


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## tarchon (Apr 8, 2003)

Leopold said:
			
		

> *i disbelieve that this is the case. Look your in a frenzy your yelling screaming killing everything in sight, you think your going to be of any mindset to sing a song or shout a chant? I doubt it.
> *



Ah, well, you fail your Will save, so you believe it anyway.
I play a barbarian/bard and I have, when RPing the IC, used things like doggerel taunts while doing the rage.  You aren't necessarily singing an aria to orchestral accompaniment.  If anything, the rage helps the effect.  You're inspiring your comrades to fearless bloodlust; that only benefits if you're wrestling a demon or charging into the fray while you do it.  Beat an orc to death with a lute - people will be impressed.
You could also use Tumble to do lots of showy fighting, vaulting around with a polearm, twirling your flail, something in the manner of Jackie Chan.  I know I would be inspired if I was fighting with Jackie Chan. 
Strictly from a rules perspective, I also agree that there's no suggestion in the rules that Inspire Courage requires anything like concentration.


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## niteshade6 (Apr 8, 2003)

The problem is that there are no official rules on this. We know you can't do anything that requires patience or concentration. But we don't know what kinds of skills or abilities require patience or concentration.

Personaly I would certainly say singing a song requires a certain degree of concentration and patience, and I would not allow it while raging. This is merely my opinion though. There is no right answer. and there is nothing in the rules to indicate that you can or can't use the ability while raging.


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## tarchon (Apr 8, 2003)

niteshade6 said:
			
		

> *The problem is that there are no official rules on this. We know you can't do anything that requires patience or concentration. But we don't know what kinds of skills or abilities require patience or concentration.
> 
> Personaly I would certainly say singing a song requires a certain degree of concentration and patience, and I would not allow it while raging. This is merely my opinion though. There is no right answer. and there is nothing in the rules to indicate that you can or can't use the ability while raging. *



For you or me, perhaps, but a bard is a heroic performer, an Arion, an Orpheus, an Egil Skallagrimson.

He can bust a rhyme on yo 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  while he cappin it.


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## Darklone (Apr 8, 2003)

I play a bard/barbarian too and we always ruled that he cannot keep up his singing while raging.... but it never proved to be much of a problem.

Round 1: Starting singing. You can't do anything else anyhow.

Round 2: Stop singing, the inspire courage takes effects for 5 rounds and you start raging while cleaving through the enemies.

Honestly, I scarcely needed all 5 rounds. Either my bard was finishing his rage and started to sing again (not too many rounds lost due to bad CON) or he was nearly knocked out due to not enough hitpoints for rage and cleave parties against opponents who hit. 

Just don't forget to finish your last round of rage with a charge attack and critical against the opponent next to your cleric...  
My char became famous for fainting after beheading someone.


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## daTim (Apr 8, 2003)

An interesting interpertation of concentration, can bardic singing be interupted by any sort of damage? If not than clearly it is not as difficult as actually casting a spell, or activiating a magic item, or other actions that require concentration checks to continue doing the action. A bard can keep singing and inspiring people despite damage taken, so it must not require too much concentration...


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## The Souljourner (Apr 8, 2003)

Like I said earlier, any action you can perform while doing backflips in combat can't require much concentration.  Check this out - A bard is inspiring courage in his allies.  During his turn he decides to use tumble to move *through* two of his enemies.  He runs for 20 feet, then does a backflip over one (successfully making the tumble check), but then doesn't quite make it out of the reach of the second and gets hit (fails the tumble check, takes an attack of opportunity) for a mighty 15 damage.  After landing on his feet behind the second enemy, he proceeds to stab the guy in the neck for 10 damage.

All this is perfectly legal, and is done while inspiring courage.  So how does this require concentration again?

-The Souljourner


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## guido1999 (Apr 8, 2003)

Well, the bardic music produces magical effects and is a supernatural ability.  It's fair to say that since you can cast spells when raging, you also cannot use supernatural abilities abilities.


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## ForceUser (Apr 8, 2003)

Ahem. Supernatural abilities do NOT require concentration. Dragons don't have to make a concentration check if hit while breathing fire, nor do hags have to cast defensively when using their Horrific Appearance.

SPELL-LIKE abilities require concentration. SUPERNATURAL abilities do not. I think guido is confusing the two. When you look under bardic music you find that inspire courage and inspire greatness don't require concentration (being supernatural), while fascinate and suggestion do (being spell-like).

Those of you who are explaining why you think bards can't do it are actually reinforcing the fact that they can (in my mind) with poor arguments and/or lack of understanding of game mechanics. No offense meant, honestly   But I'm convinced I have the right of it now - it can be done by the letter of the rules. Thank you all for your responses


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## Sejs (Apr 9, 2003)

Races of Faerun.

Orc Warlord PrC gets Inspire Courage identical to the bard ability and makes specific refrence to the fact that it can be done while raging.

Don't have the book with me or I'd give ya a quote.


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## niteshade6 (Apr 9, 2003)

Well clearly doing a bard song doesn't require the concentration skill, but that doesn't mean it doesn't require any concentration at all. Doing complex algebra problems doesn't require the concentration skill either, but clearly requires quite a bit of concentration. Similarly the requirement of patience fits in with alot of things too.

The arguments for why it should be allowed are quite reasonable, and so are the ones for why it shouldn't be. There are no rules for it, so it kind of comes down to gut instinct and DM opinion. Matters such as that are generaly pointless to argue too much here since everyone has their own opinion and there is no right or wrong answer. In fact the only wrong answer is saying that your answer is the correct one and people who disagree are wrong.


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## Artoomis (Apr 9, 2003)

ForceUser said:
			
		

> *I believe he can.
> 
> Under Barbarian Rage in the PHB, the text states:
> 
> ...




Hmmm.

What does "...patience and concentration..." mean?  More than just that the concentration check is required, certainly, else the word "patience" would be entirely superfluous

What does it mean that a Bard cannot cast spells when singing - not even somatic only spells, even though he can fight?.  What other actions can he not do while singing?  Good question.

Hmmm....


Taken together it does sort of imply you cannot sing while raging, but it's only an implication, not a clear rule.

You could rule either way on this one and be within the rules.


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## Chacal (Apr 9, 2003)

I know you're asking for rules, but I'll let flavor guide me in this case : I'd allow it.

Chacal


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## MerakSpielman (Apr 9, 2003)

Inspire courage doesn't need to be singing. 

You know how many ways a bard can perform? One for each rank in the Perform skill. The methods of artistic performance are limited only by player creativity. Any can work to inspire courage.

Perform: Axe Twirling 
Perform: Battle Cry
Perform: Foaming Mouth
Etc...


Our halfling bard does Stand Up Comedy during combat to inspire us. The player tells a real joke each round, too.


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## Magic Rub (Apr 9, 2003)

I would allow it for 2 reasons. (which I will explain after this blurb from the rules)



> Under Bardic Music, the text states:
> 
> "Once per day per level, a bard can use his song or poetics to produce magical effects on those around him...while these abilities fall under the category of bardic music, they can include reciting poetry, *chanting*, singing lyrical songs, singing melodies, whistling, playing an instrument, etc..."




Please note that the ( *chanting* ) emphasis is mine.
____________________________________________
*The Battle rager prestige class from Races of Faerun - states that they wade through battle singing & rageing all the way. (or something to that effect I don't have my book here so I cannot directly quote it.)* 
____________________________________________


Now here's why IMO bardic "music" can be used while in a rage: 
You do not need to sing or recite poetry to use bardic music. Chanting is as easy to do as speaking, which as far as I am aware is still allowed while raging. Infact Chanting is far simpler to do then free form speech (you don't need to put as much thought into it). A chant can be as little as one word repeated again & again. example...
_"Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill!"_
Secondly the "Battle Rager" class I mentioned above has the singing aspect noted as flavour text, not as a special ability (I'm only 99% positive about this, again I don't have my book with me so I can't check right now). Which would lead me to believe that full out singing is not a difficult thing to do while in a rage. Battle Ragers (for those who don't know) are essentially just (Dwarf only) Barbarians, with a few bells & whistles ie; improved poison saves. 

So to make a long rant short...

Yes You can use the Bardic music ability while in a rage IMO.


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## LokiDR (Apr 9, 2003)

Against: The sage ruled you can not activate command word items while raging.  The concept was that you should not be able to use magic in any form while raging.  I think the sage would rule no singing while raging.  Also, both rage and bardic perform prevent a large number of actions each.  Just because they do not explicitly exclude each other, they both seem to be written to be exclusitory.

Supporting: Supernatural abilities don't require concentration checks, and singing is a free action (while you fight).  There is a feat to inspire others to rage while you rage, so it seems to make sense to allow inspire while you rage.  Nothing in the rules explictly states you can not do it, so you can.  Have a frenzied maniac on your side could be a big boost to your confidence.

Pick your arguement.  Each DM should decide based on they kind of game they want.  The more munchkin your game, the more reasonable you will allow it.  It isn't game breaking by itself, as noted by the example of starting singing before raging.


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## guido1999 (Apr 10, 2003)

I would say that you can rage and use any bardic music ability that was supernatural in nature, but not any bardic music ability that was spell-like in nature.  The PHB does make it clear which bardic music abilities are supernatural and spell-like.


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## Sejs (Apr 10, 2003)

There we go, got RoF back now - argument for allowing Bard/Barbarian to inspire courage while raging:

Races of Faerun, p185.  Orc Warlord PrC. Left collum, bottom of the page.


> Inspire Courage(Su): At 2nd level, the orc warlord gains the ability to inspire courage, which has the same effect as the bardic ability of the same name.  The warlord makes an inspirational speech, bolstering his allies against fear and improving their combat abilities... *snip mechanics reprint*
> ..A warlord in the midst of a rage can use this ability, but in those cases the warlord's speech is more of a rant of howls and curses than a true speech.


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## melkoriii (Apr 10, 2003)

Sejs said:
			
		

> *Inspire Courage(Su): At 2nd level, the orc warlord gains the ability to inspire courage, which has the same effect as the bardic ability of the same name. The warlord makes an inspirational speech, bolstering his allies against fear and improving their combat abilities... *snip mechanics reprint*
> ..A warlord in the midst of a rage can use this ability, but in those cases the warlord's speech is more of a rant of howls and curses than a true speech. *




This leads me to believe that a Bard can not use this while raging.

As it says "A warlord in the midst of a rage can use this ability"

Spasificly stating "A warlord"  Not a Bard,  Not just that it can be used while raging or  that like other Bardic music can be used while raging.

Thanks.

Now Im sure you cant.


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## Magic Rub (Apr 10, 2003)

I've got that battle rager quote now...


> *From RoF*
> _"While enraged, a battle ragers face becomes distorted & twisted. his teeth grind together as spittle flies from his mouth & dribbles down his beard. His eyes enlarge, bulge & become blood shot. charging into battle, he bellows forth his clan or holy warsong..."_




This is simply flavour text not an abillity. It however proves (again) that you can sing while enraged. 

If you can sing during a rage then you can use the supernatural ability Inspire Courage.

__________

If you do not agree with that then...
__________

Question: Can you speak while in a rage? 

If you can then you can chant. If you can chant then you can use Inspire Courage. Remember there is NO check for this abillity you need only to have 3 or more ranks in Preform.


*melkoriii* 
IMO, The warlord PrC gives this ability for those who do not want to multiclass as a bard. But again it proves that it can be done, that the rage doesn't hinder the ability.


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## Trine (Apr 10, 2003)

melkoriii said:
			
		

> *
> 
> This leads me to believe that a Bard can not use this while raging.
> 
> ...



Err... It's in the description of the warlord PrC's ability, not the bard's. Why would the writer even mention bards in the warlord's ability, since the PrC is supposed to be an alternative to multi-classing as a bard.

Your proof is a little lacking, I think.


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## LokiDR (Apr 10, 2003)

The fact that the warlord metions specifically that you can inpire courage through his ability while raging implicitly means you can not inspire courage with the bardic abilty.  Warlord looks like a special exception to a rule that isn't printed.


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## Sejs (Apr 10, 2003)

> Spasificly stating "A warlord" Not a Bard, Not just that it can be used while raging or that like other Bardic music can be used while raging.




It makes specific note of the rage/inspire courage interaction because the ability to rage is a requirement to get into the PrC.  There's no need in that instance to mention a bard that could also rage, because it's not the subject of what they're talking about.  What they are doing is pointing out that someone who has the exact same Inspire Courage ability that a bard does (identical in all respects other than the Preform requirements), that also has the ability to rage can inspire courage while raging.  I personally thought it was really nice that they made a point of making that clear in the class description itself, so it wouldn't have to be Sage Adviced or Eratta'd later on.  It is not a printing of a hard-and-fast rule for a bard/barbarian, I never claimed it as such, what it does do is give _precident_ for allowing Inspire Courage to be used while Raging.


As for...


> The fact that the warlord metions specifically that you can inpire courage through his ability while raging implicitly means you can not inspire courage with the bardic abilty. Warlord looks like a special exception to a rule that isn't printed.




 I fully disagree with you.  If there is no rule, there is no need for an exception.  I think that the warlord example lends credence to rage and inspire courage working together.  As for other bardic music, personally I'd let rage work with inspire greatness also, but not the other, more soft and subtile kinds (countersong, fascinate, suggestion, inspire competance).

Rage makes you a better fighter, and with the right abilities you should be able to 'lead by example' as it were to make others fight better too.  But you shouldn't be able to rage and then sing a song about how well Bill The Thief is going to pick that lock such that it'll help his chances.

Heh.


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## Saeviomagy (Apr 11, 2003)

LokiDR said:
			
		

> *The fact that the warlord metions specifically that you can inpire courage through his ability while raging implicitly means you can not inspire courage with the bardic abilty.  Warlord looks like a special exception to a rule that isn't printed. *



The fact that being petrified mentions that you cannot move or take actions, while being dead mentions no such thing suggests that the only penalties you gain for being dead are the inability to regain hitpoints on your own.

Your ball.


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## Darklone (Apr 11, 2003)

Summary: 
- You could say, the warlord description states it specifically that you can inspire courage while raging. They wouldn't state this if it would be a general rule.
- OTOH, rules often do state obvious things, that's what rules are for.

Speak with your DM. Hints in the rule books usually lead to dead ends.


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## Magic Rub (Apr 11, 2003)

Magic Rub said:
			
		

> *I've got that battle rager quote now...
> 
> 
> This is simply flavour text not an abillity. It however proves (again) that you can sing while enraged.
> ...




Just a reprint because I feel like beating a dead horse. (and no one responded to my question.)


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## ForceUser (Apr 11, 2003)

I'm with you, Magic Rub. I have spoken with several other DMs about it, and we all agree that since inspire courage is a supernatural ability it does not require patience and concentration and thus, can be activated and maintained while raging.


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## LokiDR (Apr 11, 2003)

Saeviomagy said:
			
		

> *
> The fact that being petrified mentions that you cannot move or take actions, while being dead mentions no such thing suggests that the only penalties you gain for being dead are the inability to regain hitpoints on your own.
> 
> Your ball. *




Irrelavent.  You could say that bardic perform requires some form of patience and concentration.  The fact that the warlord allows you to perform a different abilty with a similar mechanic identifies the ability as different, as it is written.  By the letter of the rule, the fact the warlord can do it explicitly then implicitly means the bard can not do it.

The argument in this case is pretty stupid, and definately based on weak semantics.  See my first post in this thread for my opinion.  There is little to loose either way, unless some one out there is building a smack based on a singing frenzied beserker.


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## Sejs (Apr 11, 2003)

> The fact that the warlord allows you to perform a different abilty with a similar mechanic identifies the ability as different, as it is written.




Not a different ability with a similar mechanic.  The *same* ability with the *same* mechanic.  The only difference is a flavor one:  bard sings or chants or recites poetry or whistles or or plays an instrument, warlord give a speech.  Heck a bard could easily recite the "Once more unto the breech" peice from Henry VIII to inspire courage.  They arn't inherantly different abilities.  I've given you a page refrence, go read it.




> By the letter of the rule, the fact the warlord can do it explicitly then implicitly means the bard can not do it.




Bullpucky.  The warlord ability nowhere states that while a warlord can inspire courage while raging that a bard cannot.  There is no letter of the rule in this situation, only inferance and interpretation.  Just please don't try to come off as though you had a more solid authority on this than you actually do.


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## Magic Rub (Apr 11, 2003)

O.K. for (what I hope to be) the last time...

You CAN use supernatural abilities while in a rage. Inspire courage is a supernatural ability, therefore you can use Inspire courage while in a rage.



The proof



> _ From the DMG & PHB;
> 
> Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like...
> 
> ...




(bold emphasis is mine)
***clarification mine***

Further...



> _From the PHB
> 
> Inspire courage
> 
> ...Inspire courage is a supernatural ability..._





[edit]spelling[/edit]


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## LokiDR (Apr 11, 2003)

Sejs said:
			
		

> *Bullpucky.  The warlord ability nowhere states that while a warlord can inspire courage while raging that a bard cannot.  There is no letter of the rule in this situation, only inferance and interpretation.  Just please don't try to come off as though you had a more solid authority on this than you actually do. *



The abilites are different.  Different books, different authors, different names, different classes.  As such, the ability is not subject to restrictions that may be placed on bardic song.

Do you really want this to degrade into a shouting match?

I stated the whole situation is based on weak semantics which imply a meaning.  If you believe there is a different interpretation, don't start lobbing badly obfuscated obscenities at me.  I never stated to be anything other than I am, and you would do well to remember that in the future.


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## LokiDR (Apr 11, 2003)

Magic Rub said:
			
		

> *O.K. for (what I hope to be) the last time...
> 
> You CAN use supernatural abilities while in a rage. Inspire courage is a supernatural ability, therefore you can use Inspire courage while in a rage.
> *




Speaking a command word does not require a concentration skill check ever.  Yet the Sage ruled you could not activate command word items while in rage.  The case is not as simple as you would like to make it.

Unless you don't want to bother with it and just run it the way you want.


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## Magic Rub (Apr 11, 2003)

LokiDR said:
			
		

> *The abilities are different. Different books, different authors, different names, different classes.*



. 

No, actually it has the same name, & same effect as the bardic ability (read it again). You really should back your argument up with some type of facts. Yes it is in a different book, by a different author & it is a different class, but they all work off the same core rules.



			
				LokiDR said:
			
		

> *As such, the ability is not subject to restrictions that may be placed on bardic song.*



. 

"...may be placed..." As a DM I might say that fighters can cast spells as a wizard, but that doesn't make it an official rule. 



			
				LokiDR said:
			
		

> * Speaking a command word does not require a concentration skill check ever.  Yet the Sage ruled you could not activate command word items while in rage.  The case is not as simple as you would like to make it.*




Activating a magical item is not the issue here, a magical item is not a super natural ability. I'm not even going to get in to the whole sage aspect. 


The case is just as simple as I would like to make it.

The Written Facts as per official/published Wizards of the coast materials in support of using Inspire courage while in a rage:
1 - Inspire courage is a super natural ability
2 - Supernatural abilities do not require concentration
3 - There is written precedent that you can sing wile in a rage, proving that it requires neither patience nor concentration to do. Admittedly it may not be good singing, but then it doesn't need to be. (yes this maybe void depending on the DM but there is written proof that it is possible - Battle Rager PrC)
4 - You can speak while you are in a rage (it requires neither patience nor concentration to do)
5 - Supernatural abilities require no command based activation system (you are either doing them or you are not)
6 - Inspire courage needs only prerequisites to be obtained & function, there is no skill check involved. (it requires neither patience nor concentration to do)
7 - Once obtained (prerequisites having been met) to function properly Inspire courage requires only that which has been proven in writing, the ability to at minimum (in this case) vocalize in some form that the recipients of the benefits can hear (sing, chant, poetry... ect ect ect). 
8 - Inspire courage states while you use it you "can fight" meaning you can take any Melee & ranged attacks you would normally get (ie; the basic hack & slash). 
9 - If the super natural ability Inspire courage took patience or concentration to do, you would not be able to partake in your normal Melee & ranged attacks (see point 10)
10 - Concentration based skills, spells & abilities (with possible exceptions, none that I can think of off the top of my head) all require a standard action for each round of combat in order to be maintained. 

_I did not list the "Warlord" PrC as a source of facts for "Can use the ability" side of the argument because they are opinion based points, regardless of precedent & you would discount them. _


The Written Facts as per official/published Wizards of the coast materials in opposition to using Inspire courage while in a rage:
1 - The Warlord PrC is in a different book, by different authors & it is a different class from bard & barbarian.


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## melkoriii (Apr 11, 2003)

LokiDR said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Speaking a command word does not require a concentration skill check ever.  Yet the Sage ruled you could not activate command word items while in rage.  The case is not as simple as you would like to make it.
> 
> Unless you don't want to bother with it and just run it the way you want. *




Hear Hear.


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## LokiDR (Apr 11, 2003)

Is there a comprehensive list of what a raging barbarian can and can not do?  I don't know of one.  Because of this, you can not simply say "it doesn't require a concentration check, therefore the ability can be used while raging."

Could a barbarian coutersong while raging?  That is a supernatural abiltity.  Druid's Thousand Faces?  Monk's Wholeness of Body?  Command undead?  Hide in Plain Sight?

You can blow untill you are blue in the face, Magic Rub, it doesn't change the fact that neither side is official.  Because there is no clear cut ruling on this, each DM should make his own decision.


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## Sejs (Apr 11, 2003)

> Do you really want this to degrade into a shouting match?



  No, indeed I do not.  



> I stated the whole situation is based on weak semantics which imply a meaning.



  Couldn't agree with you more.  I'm behind you 100% there; I brought up the Orc Warlord's ability to Inspire Courage while raging to point out a printed precident.  I did not in any way want to say that it was a concrete rule that bards can do X because warlords can do Y.  I did, however, not want any confusion as to the nature of that ability - that they arn't two seperate abilities, but the same ability used by two different classes.



> If you believe there is a different interpretation, don't start lobbing badly obfuscated obscenities at me. I never stated to be anything other than I am, and you would do well to remember that in the future.




If you feel that I have insulted you, then I appologise.  If you picked up any hostile emotional undercurrent in what I said, then I appologise.  There was never any intended.  There were no badly obfuscated obsceneties, and as to stating to be anything other than what you are, etc.  The only point I took contention with was the use of letter of the rules when there is no letter to the rule in that case.  I said please, and thought I was being polite.  Again, if you feel that I have insulted you, then I appologise.


Thank you.


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## Sejs (Apr 11, 2003)

> Could a barbarian coutersong while raging? That is a supernatural abiltity. Druid's Thousand Faces? Monk's Wholeness of Body? Command undead? Hide in Plain Sight?




Personal oppinion:

-Countersong:  No, as it requires a Perform check and basing from my admittadly limited real life experience, such would require patience and/or concentration to be good enough to effectivly Countersong.  Flip side of that coin though, and part of the original discussion ~ Inspire Courage and Inspire Greatness do not require Perform skill checks.

-Druid's Thousand Faces:  Yes, as it is a supernatural ability useable at will, that requires no skill check.

-Monk's Wholeness of Body: Yes, as it is a supernatural ability useable at will, that requires no skill check.

-Command Undead:  No, as it says under commanding undead  (p140, phb) that you must take a standard action to give mental orders to undead under your mental control.  A standard action to perform a wholly mental task to me indicates concentration.  Additionally, it states that you can command a single undead that has more hit dice than you, but you must concentrate continually as with mantaining a spell to do so.  To me that says no commanding undead activly while raging.

-Hide in Plain Sight: Yes, as while it does require a skill check (Hide), it's not of the same Patience and Concentration type that Perform, Intuit Direction, Handle Animal, or say Appraise would fall under.

Again, just personal oppinion.

^_^


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## Magic Rub (Apr 13, 2003)

LokiDR said:
			
		

> *Is there a comprehensive list of what a raging barbarian can and can not do?  I don't know of one.  Because of this, you can not simply say "it doesn't require a concentration check, therefore the ability can be used while raging."*




I could simply say that. I didn't say that, but I could. Your quazi-quote is not what I had said. Spells "require a concentration check", that's a different thing all together.



			
				LokiDR said:
			
		

> *Could a barbarian coutersong while raging?  That is a supernatural abiltity.  Druid's Thousand Faces?  Monk's Wholeness of Body?  Command undead?  Hide in Plain Sight?*




See Sejs last post. 



			
				LokiDR said:
			
		

> *You can blow untill you are blue in the face, Magic Rub, it doesn't change the fact that neither side is official.  Because there is no clear cut ruling on this, each DM should make his own decision. *




I know  I can also "blow" till I'm green, blue, pink, dusty rose, striped, stone grey, ect ect ect. in the face.

 I never said it was a printed rule, I simply stated my opinion, (You should read the disclaimer link in my sig.)  & backed that with as much of the printed rules as I could. You stated your opinions as well. You don't agree with mine, & I don't see a reason to agree with yours on this issue. If you choose to play a different way, cool beans. I fully agree that each DM should make his or her own decision on this matter. One way or the other it really makes little difference as long as every one is having fun.

See ya mang.


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## Ukyo the undead (Apr 13, 2003)

I really think the supernatural nature of the bardic power " inspire courage" kills the doubt, if its a rule issue. If a supernatural ability can be used while in rage, this bardic power can too, since its also an SA.

And in flavor territory, we all should accept that the bard dont have to sing to inspire courage. He can enter in a trance while ranging, and start to recite a poetry, or begin to "hummmmmm" and go killing. Or he can simply start moving with such grace and precision that he start insipring people to think " Im feelling like i could do that too"...


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## Particle_Man (Apr 13, 2003)

Think of Samuel L. Jackson's biblical speech in Pulp Fiction just before he blows people away.

Heck, I found THAT to be pretty inspiring!


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## LokiDR (Apr 13, 2003)

Ukyo said:
			
		

> *I really think the supernatural nature of the bardic power " inspire courage" kills the doubt, if its a rule issue. If a supernatural ability can be used while in rage, this bardic power can too, since its also an SA.
> *



So you would allow command undead while in rage?  It is a supernatural ability that requires no skill ckeck.

As you MagicRub, perhaps you forgot you posted this:


> You CAN use supernatural abilities while in a rage. Inspire courage is a supernatural ability, therefore you can use Inspire courage while in a rage.




There is no rule that says all supernatural abilities can be used in rage.  Any one who says that is blowing smoke.


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## Magic Rub (Apr 13, 2003)

> *JULES*
> There's a passage I got memorized.
> Ezekiel 25:17.
> _ "The path of the
> ...


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## LokiDR (Apr 14, 2003)

and your point was....


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## Magic Rub (Apr 14, 2003)

In regards to you, there wasn't one. It was for  Particle_Man.


But if you would like a reply.

No, I hadn't forgotten that I had posted that. I had infact clarified my position in a later post. The post you have noted is admittedly a generalisation, that again I feel I've explained. I'm sorry that I may have blown smoke, if you're sorry for saying that I had been blowing smoke (which I find more offensive then the term bull pucky.)  . Again, I'm simply stating an opinion/ruling based on what printed facts I have to go on (as I've noted & clarified above).


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## Jeremy Stanley (Oct 27, 2018)

there were tones of bard-barians [MENTION=6890747]ro[/MENTION]CFEST last year ;p


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## ForceUser (Oct 27, 2018)

Jeremy Stanley said:


> there were tones of bard-barians [MENTION=6890747]ro[/MENTION]CFEST last year ;p




I started this thread in ***2003***, and it hadn't seen a post in it until today, fifteen years later. Amazing!


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## Garthanos (Oct 28, 2018)

Displaying extremes of personal bravery in a bloody raging way would be one very interesting way to inspire bravery in allies ..

For me it makes good story.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Oct 28, 2018)

I’ve never played or seen this class combo in person.  Despite 3.5 being my favorite edition of D&D, I don’t think I ever will at this point in time.

But after reading the entire thread, I think I’m persuaded the abilities can be used simultaneously.


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## ElectricDragon (Oct 29, 2018)

All I know is that if you put a bard-berian in a box and shake it real hard; you can't tell if he's singing but he does sound mad.


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## Greenfield (Oct 29, 2018)

The Barbarian's Rage description specifically forbids the character from using most skills, as well as any action that requires thought or concentration.



			
				PHB Page 25 said:
			
		

> While raging, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function. He can use any feat he has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, and metamagic feats.




The section on Bardic Music says that Inspire Courage requires three or more ranks in Perform to use it.  Since the Barbarian can't use the Perform skill while raging (It's Charisma based), that combinations seems like it violates RAW.

Final answer, of course, is to ask your DM.


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