# D&D Insider Character Builder Open Beta live



## Scott_Rouse (Dec 11, 2008)

I just wanted to let you know that the beta test for the Character Builder demo is now* open to everyone* (yes this includes people who are not yet subscribing to D&Di). The beta is still for levels 1-3 but it has some new stuff added to it since the Closed Beta started for D&D Insider subscribers including new content from Martial Power, November Dragon, UI Updates, etc

Check it out and let us know what you think. Here is the link where you can get to download the .exe file.


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## Admiral Caine (Dec 11, 2008)

Scott_Rouse said:


> I just wanted to let you know that the beta test for the Character Builder demo is now* open to everyone* (yes this includes people who are not yet subscribing to D&Di). The beta is still for levels 1-3 but it has some new stuff added to it since the Closed Beta started for D&D Insider subscribers including new content from Martial Power, November Dragon, UI Updates, etc
> 
> Check it out and let us know what you think. Here is the link where you can get to download the .exe file.




Even though I am a DDI subscriber, this is a great day. People should try it, its a cool piece of software.


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## ki11erDM (Dec 11, 2008)

Cool!  Thanks Scott!


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## filthgrinder (Dec 11, 2008)

Some weird issues. If you notice that the gnoll, Drow, minotaur all say "Monster Manual" for their stats. The Drow should say the FR book, and the others should say their Dragon issues. It looks like they took the information from the proper sources, they just labelled it incorrectly. Although the mino article looks like it's just the monster manual info, so I may be wrong.


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## mach1.9pants (Dec 11, 2008)

Cool I will update my closed BETA one. Please please please use your charm, wit, whip, threats, chainsaw, blackmail mpegs/jpegs and/or overtime to get the full 30 levels out by early next year. I reckon my PC's will be up to level 8 by then and I am not looking forward to editing their PDF char sheets... It is labourious and we find an error at least once a session!


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## Henry (Dec 11, 2008)

Scott, thank you for the heads-up! I still have to check this thing out - I never got a chance to, even though I'm a subscriber...


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## blargney the second (Dec 11, 2008)

I'm grabbing it now, thanks for the heads-up!


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## Campbell (Dec 11, 2008)

One issue I've noticed is that the Ranger's Beastmaster fighting style does not allow you to select a beast yet.


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## Obryn (Dec 11, 2008)

Will the software auto-update and pull down information from the server?

Or do I need to run a manual update and grab the new program?

Regardless, this rocks!  Thanks!  It's a fun toy...  I just wish it went up to level 10 at least!

-O


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## Scott_Rouse (Dec 11, 2008)

Campbell said:


> One issue I've noticed is that the Ranger's Beastmaster fighting style does not allow you to select a beast yet.




Yes this will be in the gold version but is not in the beta


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## Scott_Rouse (Dec 11, 2008)

Obryn said:


> Will the software auto-update and pull down information from the server?
> 
> Or do I need to run a manual update and grab the new program?
> 
> ...




During the beta you must manually patch. Instructions here:

_11/12/09:_ We have updated the *Character Builder* installer to work with the 64 bit version of Windows Vista. If you previously downloaded the application and were getting an error on launch, you will want to: 


uninstall the previous failed *Character Builder* application
install .NET 3.5 SP1 from Microsoft
install any Windows Updates you have pending and reboot if necessary
download the new 64bit friendly *Character Builder*
install the *Character Builder Beta*
 If this is your first time downloading the *Character Builder* application, you will want to:


install .NET 3.5 SP1 from Microsoft
install any Windows Updates you have pending and reboot if necessary
install the *Character Builder Beta*


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## Scribble (Dec 11, 2008)

Hey Scott... Is it always going to be a seperate program you need to download? Or will it eventually be hosued on the WoTC side and interfaced through the web like the other stuff?


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## Scott_Rouse (Dec 11, 2008)

Scribble said:


> Hey Scott... Is it always going to be a seperate program you need to download? Or will it eventually be hosued on the WoTC side and interfaced through the web like the other stuff?




The client and data will live on your local HD (offline use) and it will patch when you login to D&DI for new data set and updates (big fixes etc)


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## firesnakearies (Dec 11, 2008)

Awesome!

Great job, Wizards!

It took about two minutes total to upgrade to the new version, and now it has the Barbarian, and the Martial Power stuff, and some new "zoom" feature for folks with smaller monitors, I guess.

Looks good!  Keep it up!



*$*


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## Obryn (Dec 11, 2008)

Scott_Rouse said:


> During the beta you must manually patch. Instructions here:



Very cool.  Thanks!  I'll have to do this when I get home.  I'm so glad it's at least a patch rather than a full download.

(Also, maybe I downloaded it after the x64 patch, but I never ran into problems on Vista x64.  Lucky me?)

-O


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## Scribble (Dec 11, 2008)

Scott_Rouse said:


> The client and data will live on your local HD (offline use) and it will patch when you login to D&DI for new data set and updates (big fixes etc)




Drat... I'm sure it's the best way to do it, but still I wish it was entirely on the web. I can't install it on my work laptop, which means when I travel on business and have downtime I can't use that downtime to make characters with the program. 

Still, the program is awesome. Keep it up! (please)


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## avin (Dec 11, 2008)

It needs an UPDATE button yet... :_)


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## Festivus (Dec 11, 2008)

Nice, I will check it out.

Scott, you might want to have someone double check the licence agreement verbage.  As written I probably should not hit agree:




> 4. Fees and Payment: We describe our fees and billing procedures for the Program (and the Components thereof) at [INSERT LOCATION] and/or on






> www.wizards.com <http://www.wizards.com/> ("Payment Terms"), which are incorporated herein by this reference and are subject to change at any time without prior notice to you.
> 
> 
> 10. Account Requirements: To use the Program and obtain an account, you will be required to choose both a login name and a user name [THIS TRUE?]. You are encouraged not to use your real name, especially if you are a Child.





It looks like an incomplete version.


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## Scott_Rouse (Dec 11, 2008)

Festivus said:


> Nice, I will check it out.
> 
> Scott, you might want to have someone double check the licence agreement verbage.  As written I probably should not hit agree:
> 
> ...




 We're aware and fixing 

thanks


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## darjr (Dec 11, 2008)

Scott_Rouse said:


> ]yes this includes people who are not yet subscribing to D&Di




..yet.. ???



Thanks for posting, I'll download asap, are there printing fixes?


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## Scott_Rouse (Dec 11, 2008)

darjr said:


> ..yet.. ???
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for posting, I'll download asap, are there printing fixes?




I'm an optimist


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## Scribble (Dec 11, 2008)

Scott_Rouse said:


> I'm an optimist




Subscribe to DDI you'll like it.


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## mach1.9pants (Dec 11, 2008)

yeah DDI is worth it, I just got a cheap manual binding machine for Dungeon and dragon mags (I hate reading on PC) and I can print them on works flash colour laser printer at cost. They are great mags and the Char Builder is a 'killer app'...needs a bit of work but has great functionality.

As to functionality does anyone know if the power cards are going to be adjusted so you can have the modifiers for more than one weapon (esp relevant to rangers) if you wish?

Cheers


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## darjr (Dec 11, 2008)

mach1.9pants said:


> As to functionality does anyone know if the power cards are going to be adjusted so you can have the modifiers for more than one weapon (esp relevant to rangers) if you wish?




I want that change as well. A work around is to change what weapon you have listed as 'in hand' and then just print out the power sheets.


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## SlyFlourish (Dec 11, 2008)

Even if we could get 10 levels, I'd be so much happier. Right now it works for one of my low level games but my main game has level 8 PCs. January is a long ways away.

I agree that it's a great app and worth the price of DDI alone for DMs. It's unfortunate that the cost structure just doesn't work for my players who think its a bit much to pay for just one character. I'll probably end up doing theirs for them I guess.


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## Jack the Red (Dec 11, 2008)

Not sure where I should post this. But when I made a Drow Rogue, the Darkfire power description (in the powercard) just had a huge *Attack *written, nothing more...

Other than that, great tool.


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## mach1.9pants (Dec 11, 2008)

mshea said:


> Even if we could get 10 levels, I'd be so much happier. Right now it works for one of my low level games but my main game has level 8 PCs. January is a long ways away.
> 
> I agree that it's a great app and worth the price of DDI alone for DMs. It's unfortunate that the cost structure just doesn't work for my players who think its a bit much to pay for just one character. I'll probably end up doing theirs for them I guess.



Yeah there is not real reason for any face to face gaming group to get more than one subscription so far, maybe you could all chip in and share?


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## Festivus (Dec 12, 2008)

Where would WoTC like bugs to be reported to? Perhaps a link?

I have at least two so far, skills cut off on the character sheet view, and I have no where to enter XP that it saves the value (or it's not very clear to me how to just enter an XP value and have it save)

Edit: Answering my own question... spotted a little blue link "Report a bug" in the lower left corner... so I submitted them.


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## Scott_Rouse (Dec 12, 2008)

Festivus said:


> Where would WoTC like bugs to be reported to? Perhaps a link?
> 
> I have at least two so far, skills cut off on the character sheet view, and I have no where to enter XP that it saves the value (or it's not very clear to me how to just enter an XP value and have it save)
> 
> Edit: Answering my own question... spotted a little blue link "Report a bug" in the lower left corner... so I submitted them.





If you are not signed into to the Knowledge Base the little link may not work so you can follow this link for instructions on bug submissions


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## silentounce (Dec 12, 2008)

Scott_Rouse said:


> During the beta you must manually patch. Instructions here:
> 
> _11/12/09:_ We have updated the *Character Builder* installer to work with the 64 bit version of Windows Vista. If you previously downloaded the application and were getting an error on launch, you will want to:
> 
> ...




Why do we have to wait a year?


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## RandomCitizenX (Dec 12, 2008)

I think this app has just pushed me over the edge toward DDI... now just to convince the lady of the house


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## Thasmodious (Dec 12, 2008)

Aha!  I finally found a bug.  The 'reckless' weapon enchantment does not work.  If you choose it, it blanks the weapon column, and if you choose a weapon first, reckless does not show up as a possible enchantment.  I reported this.


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## Nahat Anoj (Dec 12, 2008)

So I downloaded this and installed it.  I have heard the praise, but it's quite a different thing to actually use the program.  This is really cool, I had to tear myself away because I couldn't stop making characters (my first three chars made were a tiefling paladin, elf fighter, and dwarf cleric).  

I didn't know there was a house rules section.  Does anyone know what the plans for this are?  Will you be able to make your own powers, feats, class features, entire classes, etc.?  Will you be able to generate power cards for these aforementioned powers?  If so, that would really, really rock.  I mean _really, really_.


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## Jan van Leyden (Dec 12, 2008)

Jack said:


> Not sure where I should post this. But when I made a Drow Rogue, the Darkfire power description (in the powercard) just had a huge *Attack *written, nothing more...




There's a Submit-a-bug link on the start page of the CB. You could also use the link The Rouse has posted in this forum.

Hey, and isn't it just a cool surprise power with a lot of power of surprise, which just screams Attack!!!


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## Tarril Wolfeye (Dec 12, 2008)

Jan van Leyden said:


> There's a Submit-a-bug link on the start page of the CB. You could also use the link The Rouse has posted in this forum.
> 
> Hey, and isn't it just a cool surprise power with a lot of power of surprise, which just screams Attack!!!




More exactly it sscreams Attac!!!
And Flaming Sphere does too.

And they still didn't fix Swordmage Weapon Proficiencies.

Another thing: shouldn't the staff of defense+1 give his enhancement bonus on attack and damage? The damage part seems to be missing.


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## Festivus (Dec 12, 2008)

Printing doesn't work right either, seems there is a bar printed through the middle of the sheet showing the character name and a page number on each page.  Have only tested this in landscape, I'll try portrait today.  Reported it already.


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## ki11erDM (Dec 12, 2008)

Scott I got a suggestion, I’ll try to post it on the WotC boards too.

I am playing a fighter right now and the fighter path abilities are rather complex… it would be nice if the text was on the character sheet somehow… maybe in the power card area?  As of right now that is the only thing I have to have a book or my laptop for.


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## Insight (Dec 12, 2008)

I thought I'd post this issue here before bug reporting it, just in case it's just me:

When I print a character sheet, the bottom 3 or 4 skills are cut off and I have to write them in by hand.

Anyone else having this problem?


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## GMforPowergamers (Dec 12, 2008)

Insight said:


> I thought I'd post this issue here before bug reporting it, just in case it's just me:
> 
> When I print a character sheet, the bottom 3 or 4 skills are cut off and I have to write them in by hand.
> 
> Anyone else having this problem?




it is a problme with vista...a known one at that. It has to do with font sizing...


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## Festivus (Dec 12, 2008)

What I did to fix it was to rearrange the sheet moving initiative over to the right most column.  Still I can't really print it because of that header/footer thingy.


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## Mathew_Freeman (Dec 12, 2008)

Downloaded and it's looking good!

I'd been glancing at the stuff from Martial Power via the Compendium before, but it's great to have it there all laid out whilst creating a character.

The final version is going to absolutely rock.


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## TheYeti1775 (Dec 12, 2008)

Scribble said:


> Drat... I'm sure it's the best way to do it, but still I wish it was entirely on the web. I can't install it on my work laptop, which means when I travel on business and have downtime I can't use that downtime to make characters with the program.
> 
> Still, the program is awesome. Keep it up! (please)




Burn it to CD or to a Flash Drive.
It's how I run a lot of stuff through work computers.


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## Ashrem Bayle (Dec 13, 2008)

I see Force Orb still isn't formatting correctly on the character sheet.


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## mach1.9pants (Dec 13, 2008)

TheYeti1775 said:


> Burn it to CD or to a Flash Drive.
> It's how I run a lot of stuff through work computers.




Yeah it runs fine like that...flash drive is faster


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## justanobody (Dec 16, 2008)

Anyone noticing performance problems after running this should check their processes and kill PresentationFontCache.exe if it was not already running. This thing does not get removed form the process list when the program closes and can suck up processor resources to just sit there.


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## Scribble (Dec 17, 2008)

TheYeti1775 said:


> Burn it to CD or to a Flash Drive.
> It's how I run a lot of stuff through work computers.




This one will runn off of a flash drive?

Interesting... Good tip! Thanks!


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## hopeless (Dec 21, 2008)

Anyone having problems equipping weapons and especially holy symbols?
At present holy symbols seem to only register when they're held and only in the main hand...
Noticed the problem with the first page and the skills, but it reveal something i overlooked so, so far so good.


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## Ashrem Bayle (Dec 21, 2008)

Yeah, my number one request is the ability to assign weapons and implements to powers.


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## justanobody (Dec 22, 2008)

I already deleted it due to how bad a "program" it is, and even worse attempt at a beta when you can barely test any of the higher level [meaning code wise not D&D wise per say] functions.

It needed to be all levels of the core to test to make sure those things worked in a beta test and then you can add the other stuff later just like MMO beta test have the basic system and all the added things build onto it, but 4th edition doesn't work the same way through as just with the first 3 levels.

For the weapons you can equip some by selecting the slot you want to put them and choosing something from the drop-down, but I didn't go into it thoroughly because of the before mentioned problems.

Another big problem is that when you have to type in your scores from rolling, these are the adjusted scores for race, so if you forget to adjust your scores for race you are screwed and lose those racial bonuses to scores.

Also the damn news screen loading from internet explorer rather than loading the webpage directly into the program. Character Builder Message Window

Why not just a text file or XML file locally that gives you the latest news from your last update?

This thing just keeps getting worse. Having to choose languages and such before you ever get to ability scores... WTF?

It also needs a way to turn splat books off. I mean if you don't own MotP then maybe you don't want that set of data to load to be in the way and only want the books you own to load. It will still be "official" even if you choose not to use MotP....

This is junk. I acts just like an MMO character creator, and visualizer and linking it to Game Table will make it even more so.

Back to the drawing board.

And the dang thing doesn't even clean up its processes when done it leaves a few running that shouldn't be.


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## joethelawyer (Dec 22, 2008)

justanobody said:


> This is junk. I acts just like an MMO character creator, and visualizer and linking it to Game Table will make it even more so.
> 
> Back to the drawing board.
> 
> And the dang thing doesn't even clean up its processes when done it leaves a few running that shouldn't be.





So how do you really feel?


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## Sir Brennen (Dec 22, 2008)

justanobody said:


> I already deleted it due to how bad a "program" it is, and even worse attempt at a beta when you can barely test any of the higher level [meaning code wise not D&D wise per say] functions.



What constitutes a "higher level function" code wise that you can't test?



> just like MMO beta test have the basic system and all the added things build onto it






> This is junk. I acts just like an MMO character creator, and visualizer and linking it to Game Table will make it even more so.



So first it's not enough like an MMO character creation program and then it's too much like one? Make up your mind. (And how exactly is it like an MMO character creator and how should it be different? )



> Another big problem is that when you have to type in your scores from rolling, these are the adjusted scores for race, so if you forget to adjust your scores for race you are screwed and lose those racial bonuses to scores.



Ummm... you don't type your scores in anywhere that I can see. You select Roll Dice, and in the center frame the Base Scores column populates, and the "score" column populates with the racial modifier added in. The character stat block on the left shows the score with adjustments. You change the base score by clicking the "+" and "-" buttons, and the race adj. keep up. Where do you type anything?

I tested this with an elf. Did you perhaps try different race which didn't add scores properly?



> Also the damn news screen loading from internet explorer rather than loading the webpage directly into the program. Character Builder Message Window
> 
> Why not just a text file or XML file locally that gives you the latest news from your last update?



??? I see the news on the start page within the application.



> This thing just keeps getting worse. Having to choose languages and such before you ever get to ability scores... WTF?



 You don't have to do any such thing. Just click on the Ability Scores tab whenever you want. You can even do Ability Scores before race or class; selecting (or changing) race will then add the modifiers after you've chosen ability scores.



> It also needs a way to turn splat books off. I mean if you don't own MotP then maybe you don't want that set of data to load to be in the way and only want the books you own to load. It will still be "official" even if you choose not to use MotP....



This I agree with. Filters would be nice.

If you think it's that buggy, JaN, there was a link provided to report bugs. Here's the quote with the link:



Scott_Rouse said:


> If you are not signed into to the Knowledge Base the little link may not work so you can follow this link for instructions on bug submissions



When reporting bugs, more detail, like what processes it doesn't clean up, would probably be helpful.


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## justanobody (Dec 22, 2008)

joethelawyer said:


> So how do you really feel?




Best ever character generating software was a Basic program that made Birthright characters.

Aside from not liking Birthright and just dealing with the added stuff for them, the next best was Core Rules CD-ROM and it was only lacking a few things that proper foresight would have had fixed, like item creation where certain things couldn't be made as containers, etc and you had to make pairs of items to serve all functions and hope it wasn't a weapon that would require making two characters to make sure primary and offhand weapons were done correctly for a multi-function weapon like a sling staff, etc.

That is an easy fix I think someone told me that E-tools did do right because it output multiple configurations of weapons.

I think the character builder could have been done better if viewed as a stand alone program that was made for use by offline players, rather than building it FOR DDI use. There is just simply design flaws that should have been caught in early development that tells you "you need these options".

Those same things that have been missing from every inception of character builder that is sold, while oddly free character builders exist and do more and handle a lot of the problems the official ones miss. 


 But you were being rhetorical weren't you?


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## firesnakearies (Dec 22, 2008)

I think you're being unreasonably critical of the builder, given that it's an unfinished demo, and that it works fantastically well for what it is able to do thus far.  Many features are still going to be implemented, and it will no doubt continue to improve with later updates as well.

It certainly makes creating and editing 4E characters much easier than any other method I've seen.

Having some small complaints or pointing out a few areas where it needs work is one thing, but calling the utility "junk" is grossly unfair.

Most people seem to be pretty thrilled about it, even if they do have some criticisms.


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## joethelawyer (Dec 22, 2008)

justanobody said:


> Best ever character generating software was a Basic program that made Birthright characters.





Believe it or not, you know what character generator I liked and still use to this day?  That crappy little program that came in the back of the 3.0 PHB.  "the dungeons and dragons character generator, demonstration version 1.2."  It was simple, and it worked for the basic stuff that we needed it to do.  We all still use it, as we play a 3.0 core game.  It was better than the Code Monkey stuff, IMHO.


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## Glyfair (Dec 22, 2008)

firesnakearies said:


> I think you're being unreasonably critical of the builder, given that it's an unfinished demo, and that it works fantastically well for what it is able to do thus far.  Many features are still going to be implemented, and it will no doubt continue to improve with later updates as well.




I agree.  This is wholesale better than any other initial release of a character generator for D&D so far.  The only one that was better was the Core Rules 2.0 character generator, and that was far down the line in the development of that version.

PCGen had promise, but it completely lost usability when it went to java.  It moved from a quick character generator, to a slow as molasses program that tried your patience.

As far I see being likely in the near future, the big failure of this version of the character generator is likely to be the inability to support 3rd party and mabye homebrew material.  Given the relative lack of that so far, it may not be so glaring a problem with the chargen program (the reasons behind the lack are another matter that have little to do with the character generator).



joethelawyer said:


> Believe it or not, you know what character generator I liked and still use to this day?  That crappy little program that came in the back of the 3.0 PHB.  "the dungeons and dragons character generator, demonstration version 1.2."  It was simple, and it worked for the basic stuff that we needed it to do.  We all still use it, as we play a 3.0 core game.  It was better than the Code Monkey stuff, IMHO.




The "Code Monkey stuff" was really the Fluid stuff that Code Monkey was hired to fix.  Fluid and WotC leadership (or lack of it) was the failure of that program.  Code Monkey seemed to have done the best they could have done with that.  Code Monkey's big failure was not getting their "built from the ground up" out in time (probably for the same reason PCGen failed for me, trying to cater to the generalities instead of making something that works for the specific).

I agree if Etools/Mastertools had become an advanced version of that generator is would have been great.  Unfortunately, we had announcements that the program wouldn't be a tool for using a laptop online or at the table, at the same time we saw previews of features that would only be used for those purposes.  The left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing.


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## justanobody (Dec 22, 2008)

Sorry for back to back posts, but don't know if this would fit in the other post id this one ends up right next to it.


Sir Brennen said:


> What constitutes a "higher level function" code wise that you can't test?




Well it does involve the higher levels of a character like what happens when you choose a new power at a required swapping level? Does that work? You don't even have that range of levels to test.

The idea of a beta is to give everything you have to people to try to break the core of the software.

This "beta" is just like a toy preview to get people to buy in and not a proper beta test model. It isn't allowing for catching mistakes prior to adding new data such as the new books, etc. It is one of the worst beta test I have ever seen. I mean they are only having people test the free demo version that people get to play with, and not the full program, so those people testing the demo and using the demo will be hooked to buying into the service, but when they get the full package they will get broken software that was not properly tested.



> So first it's not enough like an MMO character creation program and then it's too much like one? Make up your mind. (And how exactly is it like an MMO character creator and how should it be different? )



The testing method used as mentioned above is poor that is where the first MMO reference comes into play. I cannot say more than that in regards to MMOs and beta testing.

The fact it is working like an MMO means they should have looked at MMO beta testing to see what is needed and how to do it.

For example, many MMO or other video RPG type games you build your character via the "sheet" and it helps create the visual for you. You equip a sword, and your visual equips that sword.

They are striving for that connection, and have made the program for that, but it is one of the higher level code functions mentioned above that will be missed in testing since they are separate programs na the visualizer is far form done, which means they shoudl have been standalone and only need to connect them so far as storing the sheet on WotC servers, and let the visual designer pull from that account database should someone want to pick things appropriate for their character, and then "paint" them up in their visual design software to be slightly different form other players in the event of meeting someone with a character so close toy our own.



> Ummm... you don't type your scores in anywhere that I can see. You select Roll Dice, and in the center frame the Base Scores column populates, and the "score" column populates with the racial modifier added in. The character stat block on the left shows the score with adjustments. You change the base score by clicking the "+" and "-" buttons, and the race adj. keep up. Where do you type anything?
> 
> I tested this with an elf. Did you perhaps try different race which didn't add scores properly?




Go into the character builder and take ANY character and get to the stats screen. There are white boxes there that show after intial character creation what your adjusted scores are after 8,10,10,10,10,10 for the point buy, unless you have set to an array method. You will note the added racialbonuses in those white squares. You can type in those squares to make whatever scores you want, but you must remember if you roll a 16, you must mentally add the bonus +2 to make it an 18 for your elf racial bonuses to stats.


> ??? I see the news on the start page within the application.



Why is it cached in internet explorer temporary internet files and added to the wizards.com folder in your browser history?

If you have something in internet explorer that doesn't allow 3rd party programs to access it for some reason:

1- you aren't going to get that news.
2- it should not be connecting to internet explorer or in some way be an extension for it to cause problems with your browser or be caught be some ad-aware or other program as a problematic BHO.

It just needs to pull the file via the software. This shows me that any actual update of data will also go through internet explorer, and this is a security risk for WotC, as it will leave these history links in IE that will allow anyone to just crawl through the pages to try to get updates where the program should establish a secure connection to the server without going through IE to do so.


> You don't have to do any such thing. Just click on the Ability Scores tab whenever you want. You can even do Ability Scores before race or class; selecting (or changing) race will then add the modifiers after you've chosen ability scores.




It is poor design to have the languages selection first. Doesn't matter IF you can bypass them, but languages are one of the least important things needed to be recorded, while the ability scores will determine many more things and should be handled first so they are there and ready for things like feats, powers calculations, etc.

I can't even seem to recall where languages will affect anything else either calculation wise, or in game unless your DM forces the issue in some skill challenge, It is that minimal that the required variables should be set up first, before some optional use thing that doesn't affect any other thing of the character. Technically languages should come AFTER feat selection incase you choose additional langues so that you can select them all at once rather than having to go forward and back to try to choose languages and end up forgetting about your bonus language due to feats.

It is simply bad design and organization. Try making a flowchart of the process and see where language MUST be to get other things to work. It is not something that any other thing I have seen has a dependency on being done....



> This I agree with. A filter would be nice.
> 
> If you think it's that buggy, JaN, there was a link provided to report bugs. Here's the quote with the link:
> 
> ...




Another problem is the bug reporting system. The software should handle it all itself and is another bad design to require you to go to two websites in order to report a bug.

Microsoft, which Windows is required, has a bug reporting system that can allow for reports to be sent directly from the software, and even include the system specs and other running processes. This is what the software should do itself since it is built on that Windows system that helps with these things which is the .NET framework.

When you click report a bug, it should be a part of the program that opens up and send the bug to a server for the developers of the software to get, not to customer service to get, and hope they send it correctly to the developers. It should go directly to the technical department so there is less chance someone along the line will screw up delivering the report.

So there are many problems with DDI and WotC digital philosophies. They are still trying to do things the way they were done in the early 80's, and need to adapt much quickly to doing things the right way or at least on that is standard for todays market and technology.





firesnakearies said:


> I think you're being unreasonably critical of the builder, given that it's an unfinished demo,




That is the problem. Don't beta test a demo. Beta test the full product. Beta testing a demo only helps create that demo. Then you have to beta test the full product later anyway....


----------



## joethelawyer (Dec 22, 2008)

Glyfair said:


> I agree.  This is wholesale better than any other initial release of a character generator for D&D so far.  The only one that was better was the Core Rules 2.0 character generator, and that was far down the line in the development of that version.





what is this core rules 2.0 generator?  is this the one that came in the back of the 3.0 phb?


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## justanobody (Dec 22, 2008)

joethelawyer said:


> what is this core rules 2.0 generator?  is this the one that came in the back of the 3.0 phb?




You are kidding right?

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Dungeons-Dragons-Core-Rules-Pc/dp/B00002SX0K]Amazon.com: Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Core Rules 2.0: staff: Video Games[/ame]


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## Glyfair (Dec 22, 2008)

joethelawyer said:


> what is this core rules 2.0 generator?  is this the one that came in the back of the 3.0 phb?




It was the final version of the 2E Core Rules program.  Now, I never used it for 2E.  I got it for the other tools.

However, it had text copies of almost all the 2E rulebooks (including almost all the splatbooks).  It had 2 map programs.  The character generator worked with all the splatbooks (or so I understand).  It also didn't have to deal with working with dozens of incompatible 3rd party books.


----------



## joethelawyer (Dec 22, 2008)

justanobody said:


> You are kidding right?
> 
> Amazon.com: Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Core Rules 2.0: staff: Video Games






Glyfair said:


> It was the final version of the 2E Core Rules program.  Now, I never used it for 2E.  I got it for the other tools.
> 
> However, it had text copies of almost all the 2E rulebooks (including almost all the splatbooks).  It had 2 map programs.  The character generator worked with all the splatbooks (or so I understand).  It also didn't have to deal with working with dozens of incompatible 3rd party books.




ahh.  cool.  i never bought that cd.


----------



## Kishin (Dec 22, 2008)

justanobody said:


> This is junk. I acts just like an MMO character creator, and visualizer and linking it to Game Table will make it even more so.




Have you played many MMOs? I'm thinking you haven't, as most MMOs don't have a character creation screen apart from selecting race/class/appearance.

The only 'MMO' character generator I've seen like it is the chargen GUI used by Gemstone III, a text based MUD that's over a decade old.


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## justanobody (Dec 22, 2008)

Are you trying to tell me no MMO uses things like a set of scores, and abilities you can pick from? Have you played many MMos yourself?

Are the ones you play all the orcs have the same strength as each other that can never be improved? Do your items have little to no impact on the amount of daamge that can be done because you are an orc?


----------



## 2WS-Steve (Dec 22, 2008)

Forecast says:  76% chance of a moderator using red font!


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## Kishin (Dec 22, 2008)

justanobody said:


> Are you trying to tell me no MMO uses things like a set of scores, and abilities you can pick from? Have you played many MMos yourself?
> 
> Are the ones you play all the orcs have the same strength as each other that can never be improved? Do your items have little to no impact on the amount of daamge that can be done because you are an orc?




???

How does MMOs having characteristics and inventory management indicate that the D&D Character Builder looks like an MMO Chargen. Those are completely unrelated ideas. If your argument is 'RPGs and MMOs both have ability scores, abilities/powers and items of varying power levels', well, yeah, obviously. But then you might as well be telling me the Pope is Catholic, as well. That has *nothing* to do with the appearance/function of the Character Builder versus MMO chargen. Advancement of a character in an MMO != Character Builder.

Also, for the record, MMOs I've played:

Gemstone III, Dragonrealms (The first two are paid MUDs, but had playerbases in the thousands in the late 90s), Neverwinter Nights (on AOL), Ultima Online, Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot, Phantasy Star Online, Ragnarok Online, Lineage 2, Guild Wars (More of a quasi-Diablo clone IMO), World of Warcraft (Through Burning Crusade), Silkroad, Age of Conan, Perfect World Online.

Pretty sure I'm reasonably familiar with their trappings.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Dec 22, 2008)

Kishin said:


> ???
> 
> How does MMOs having characteristics and inventory management indicate that the D&D Character Builder looks like an MMO Chargen. Those are completely unrelated ideas. If your argument is 'RPGs and MMOs both have ability scores, abilities/powers and items of varying power levels', well, yeah, obviously. But then you might as well be telling me the Pope is Catholic, as well. That has *nothing* to do with the appearance/function of the Character Builder versus MMO chargen. Advancement of a character in an MMO != Character Builder.
> 
> ...



The closest the character generator comes to in the few CRPGs and MMORPGs I know is the Never Winter Nights character creation process. But whereas the NWN system is incredibly inflexible and only allows me to go step by step, level by level, the 4E Character Generator allows me to freely pick what I want to do, when I want it to do. Sure, it also has the "Wizard" feel of going through step by step, but you can bypass that. And it still tracks for me which steps I haven't done yet, announcing whether I've feats or powers to select. 

---
I wonder how the generator handles the default retraining of powers at certain levels. Unfortunately, this only happens in Paragon Tier and upwards, not in the first 3 levels.


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## justanobody (Dec 22, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I wonder how the generator handles the default retraining of powers at certain levels. Unfortunately, this only happens in Paragon Tier and upwards, not in the first 3 levels.




Exactly. These things need to be beta tested as well so the core material is ready and the extra stuff from splatbooks can be worked into the system later.

@MMOs:
Here is the proposed method of the DDI tools starting with the character generator.

You stat up your character with the things you want like Race, Class, etc; then you move to the visualizer. Once you have your character created and your visualized set up you them move into the game, aka lobby, ot the actual table in which you will play with your character, just like the server connects your character in an MMO.

The character builder however does not need this connection as not everyone will be using the Game Table, but that was and is what it is being developed for and as a single package.

All the tools were supposed to be integrated and thus why you have some really silly requirements such as Direct X for the character builder.

How much visuals and animation does the CB really do that requires Direct X?

I have seen stronger tax applications that did not require Direct X, and for database use this very forum seems to do a pretty good job, and doesn't need Direct X or even Windows.

If you look at such a narrow view of the CB and what it is versus what it is a part of and meant to be only a part of then you cannot see the connection to starting a character in an MMO.. When you look at the larger picture then you see that it is the same step for creating a character in an MMO as the next step will take into account what items you have that you will be able to pick from the CG modeler to "suit up" your graphics to comply with your character stats.

How many MMos have anyone here played that first go into making the visual look pretty before any stat work is done?

Anyway the CB could me much better if it wasn't built to be interdependent on the other tools and just allowed for saving to a database and let the other tools, if used, pull from that database rather than what will probably be close to OLE data that is passed directly form one to another. Odds are it will use the saved data locally and pull it into the other apps which taxes the client machine more and the sever less.

Either way it is made to share data so that it can be changed during use on the Game Table. Overhead those wanting a chargen and not wanting the rest just don't need. Thus why saving to an external database would solve both issues. The Game table could pull from WotC servers for the subscribers that are paying for the service, and those lapsed subscriptions can still use the CB without it trying to connect to something else and work solely offline.

Sometimes people just cannot see the forest for the trees though.


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## Jack99 (Dec 22, 2008)

justanobody said:


> How many MMos have anyone here played that first go into making the visual look pretty before any stat work is done?




I haven't played a lot of massive multiplayer online game, just EQ, DAoC and WoW. 

All three of those have no stat work. You pick race and class, chose how you will look, and press "Start". Once you are in the world, you can see your stats, not before.


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## wedgeski (Dec 22, 2008)

justanobody said:


> How many MMos have anyone here played that first go into making the visual look pretty before any stat work is done?



The biggest and most influential one of them all, for a start.



> Sometimes people just cannot see the forest for the trees though.



I couldn't agree more.


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## avin (Dec 22, 2008)

justanobody said:


> How many MMos have anyone here played that first go into making the visual look pretty before any stat work is done?




World of Warcraft.

(To be fair you first choose Race, then Class, then customize appearance)


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## Phaezen (Dec 22, 2008)

_Sorry, needless sarcastic remarks removed, and now for something more constructive:

_So far the Character generator is well abovemy expectations.  I am still playing around with the customisation options on the character sheet.  Seriously awesome.  I like that it is usable offline, I am assuming the full version will also be a local install with a monthly patch for new material and errata.

Phaezen


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## firesnakearies (Dec 22, 2008)

As a rule, companies don't have open beta tests of their software.  They have closed, in-house beta testing.  MMORPGs are an exception, because they're intended to be used by massive numbers of players at the same time, connected online to shared servers.  So they have to open that up to be tested by the masses, in order to test the massive multiplayer functionality.

Stand-alone, single-user applications don't have open beta tests.  Or was there a secret open beta for Windows XP, or Microsoft Office, or Adobe Photoshop, or QuickBooks that I wasn't aware of?  Did I just miss the invite to the open beta test of Fallout 3, Grand Theft Auto 4, and Crysis?

No, because companies don't need to have a large group of random members of the public "test" their software, unless it's a massively multi-user program hosted online.  The builder is downloaded and then run by one person, without an internet connection even required.  Why would they need to have an open beta test for that?

That would be, essentially, giving away their entire product for free.  No other commercial software publishers do that.  You're acting like WotC is falling short of some "proper industry standard" by not having a free giveaway (ie, full open beta test) of their stand-alone application.  That's ridiculous.

It isn't an MMO, and it has practically nothing in common with an MMO.  It has much MORE in common with Excel and Acrobat than with a MMORPG.


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## justanobody (Dec 22, 2008)

Funny how people take one statement and run with it forever taking it out of context.

Yes most companies don't do open beta testing for regular software, but CB is more like an MMO because you need players to test it and tell you what they need or want out of it.

This is where the fault comes in because they are only beta testing a demo version rather than the full thing like MMOs would have people testing the full core thing with add-ons coming later after the core system is working.

Look at all the people raising the same types of questions on the WotC forums and other various forums around the net.

Will it work after 3rd elvel? Has it been properly tested? Why haven't changes been made to fix existing problems prior to the open beat instead of just adding new expansions to it and leaving the bugs in it?

The whole testing bit is flawed, so the product can only be flawed when finished because too many things went untested.

So that is the big part of MMO reference, and let it end there as Phaezen did. 

The thing isn't being properly tested, and the errors for the paid for version will show because of it.


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## Lord Xtheth (Dec 22, 2008)

avin said:


> World of Warcraft.
> 
> (To be fair you first choose Race, then Class, then customize appearance)




... you so can't customize your appearance


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## filthgrinder (Dec 22, 2008)

justanobody said:


> How much visuals and animation does the CB really do that requires Direct X?




Requiring the .Net 3.0 framework and Direct X is more of a product of product that: looks good, is built well, and can be developed by multiple teams of developers. You can advantage of these tools to make flexible, modular software, that can be handed off to different development teams and not require a massive learning curve/clean-up process. In bringing in new developers, the skill-set you are looking for is plentiful. The game table/visualizer will differently use DirectX since it will be rendering everything in 3D, you want all the components of your software package be developed in a uniform manner. You want to shuffle your developers around and not have them do mental gymnastics to remember what everything uses and what libraries they can or can not access.



justanobody said:


> Anyway the CB could me much better if it wasn't built to be interdependent on the other tools and just allowed for saving to a database and let the other tools, if used, pull from that database rather than what will probably be close to OLE data that is passed directly form one to another.




Right now your character is saved to an XML file. The default location is ddi\Saved Characters\
in your "My Documents" folder.

I'm also curious as to how many MMOs that you have played where you can click a little "House Rule" icon and then change anything you want. How many MMO's actually produce your character sheet for you. How many MMO's then let you print out your character sheet on a page where you can move around the elements on the page. 

If this was an MMO character generator, why is it saving it to an XML file on your machine. Why can you house rule anything you want? Why let you print out a character sheet? 

I really don't follow the complaint. Do you just object to using a computer to assist a pen and paper game? That seems to be the issue. I'm not sure how one would design a tool to help build a character for D&D that wouldn't resemeble an MMO to you. 

I'd just like to say, "We get it, you don't like this, WE GET IT." Now let's just move along.


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## Phaezen (Dec 22, 2008)

For what it is worth, looking at the following thread, there does seem to have been a closed beta test of the full product.  The public beta demo is nothing more than a demo for people to have a look at the first three levels, and let WOTC know of any errors they pick up.

Unlock the POWER of your character sheet! - Wizards Community

Phaezen


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## justanobody (Dec 22, 2008)

Phaezen said:


> For what it is worth, looking at the following thread, there does seem to have been a closed beta test of the full product.  The public beta demo is nothing more than a demo for people to have a look at the first three levels, and let WOTC know of any errors they pick up.
> 
> Unlock the POWER of your character sheet! - Wizards Community
> 
> Phaezen




That was the beta test of the demo for subscriber prior to adding the martial powers data set.



> Dylan "ExoByte" Mayo
> Producer D&DI




The thread was started by someone on the inside, and seems to have lost his staff icon, so maybe was a hidden layoff or something....

So far they have only ever released levels 1-3 to the public, unless you can direct me to a post stating otherwise.

Of course the devs would have access to the full product to write it.....

@filthgrinder:

What does the houserule icon have to do with anything? It is a valid option from within the software. You cannot add your own items or anything else, just like you cannot do so in video games. You are bound by only what exists in the system.


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## Rel (Dec 22, 2008)

The one thing I'd most like fixed in the short term is some kind of filter for making characters that are "PHB Only" and so forth.


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## Phaezen (Dec 22, 2008)

Rel said:


> The one thing I'd most like fixed in the short term is some kind of filter for making characters that are "PHB Only" and so forth.




I am fairly sure there is an option for that kind of thing, but I have the generator installed on my home pc, not at work.  I will check when I get home and report back.

Phaezen


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## Rel (Dec 22, 2008)

Phaezen said:


> I am fairly sure there is an option for that kind of thing, but I have the generator installed on my home pc, not at work.  I will check when I get home and report back.
> 
> Phaezen




Perhaps I'm just missing it or else I haven't got the latest version.  I downloaded it a week ago today.


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## justanobody (Dec 22, 2008)

There is only one version for open beta, and the only difference in it and closed was the added Martial Power book and stuff like that. No actual updates to the system, and there is nothing that filters which books to use at this time.

You are offered material from everywhere and every book that exists in the system so that it is RPGA compliant, since everything is allowed in the RPGA.

I think the WotC forums have a thread or two about the RPGA material problems and needing a Minotaur changed because the Dragon overrides the MM entry or some such....

Yes filters would be great!


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## Rel (Dec 22, 2008)

I am glad at least that the source of each feat/power, etc. is noted to the right of the entry so that you can skip over sources that you don't want to use.  But it's rather a pain during character creation to have to do that when the number of such things from outside sources is fairly large.  And presumably it will only grow larger.


----------



## silentounce (Dec 22, 2008)

justanobody said:


> It also needs a way to turn splat books off. I mean if you don't own MotP then maybe you don't want that set of data to load to be in the way and only want the books you own to load. It will still be "official" even if you choose not to use MotP....




It's been over a week since I've used the program, but I'm almost 100% positive that you can do this.  I don't have the program installed on this computer right now or I'd check.

I believe this option is in one of the very last "tabs" of the generator.  I remember seeing it and thinking it was cool to have that.

Anyway, it doesn't appear that you've delved too deeply into the software.  How long did you actually spend experimenting with it?  And did you complete a character?  I like how you can drag/drop and customize the layout of the character sheet.


----------



## avin (Dec 22, 2008)

Lord Xtheth said:


> ... you so can't customize your appearance




I lost you... changing hair / colors / horns / etc isn't customize...?


----------



## Phaezen (Dec 22, 2008)

On the *Finish Tab* there is a button called *Restrictions* (on the lefthand side, next to the character portrait).  The features seem to be disabled for the Beta release, but it includes houserules and such.  You can also choose to allow sections from certain books,for example rituals or races.

Phaezen


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## Holy Bovine (Dec 22, 2008)

silentounce said:


> It's been over a week since I've used the program, but I'm almost 100% positive that you can do this.  I don't have the program installed on this computer right now or I'd check.
> 
> I believe this option is in one of the very last "tabs" of the generator.  I remember seeing it and thinking it was cool to have that.
> 
> Anyway, it doesn't appear that you've delved too deeply into the software.  How long did you actually spend experimenting with it?  And did you complete a character?  I like how you can drag/drop and customize the layout of the character sheet.




Yup - you can indeed turn off any books you want from the CB.  Go to the Finish tab (last tab) and click the 'Restrictions' button (bottom button on the left).  You then get a list of every source currently being used.  Uncheck the boxes for stuff you don't want and voila!  Also I am really excited to see a space to import houserules!  It isn't enabled in the Beta version yet 


When does this go gold btw?!  I am subscribing this week (on payday) for a full year just on the strength and versatility of this builder.  Way to go WotC!


----------



## Rel (Dec 22, 2008)

Phaezen said:


> On the *Finish Tab* there is a button called *Restrictions* (on the lefthand side, next to the character portrait).  The features seem to be disabled for the Beta release, but it includes houserules and such.  You can also choose to allow sections from certain books,for example rituals or races.
> 
> Phaezen




I see the section that you are talking about.  Glad to see that it's in the works.

I also note that Retraining is included in that section and the interface looks quite simple.

Look forward to this stuff being implemented.


----------



## justanobody (Dec 22, 2008)

Oh goody it is on the last tabs rather than the first tab so you have to go back and forth still.

Then you have to select the _SOURCE section and turn it off even in the PHB tre to remove everything even if you have already done so like Draconomicon 2, and other books that are there but not even out yet.....


----------



## Kishin (Dec 22, 2008)

justanobody said:


> If you look at such a narrow view of the CB and what it is versus what it is a part of and meant to be only a part of then you cannot see the connection to starting a character in an MMO.. When you look at the larger picture then you see that it is the same step for creating a character in an MMO as the next step will take into account what items you have that you will be able to pick from the CG modeler to "suit up" your graphics to comply with your character stats.
> 
> How many MMos have anyone here played that first go into making the visual look pretty before any stat work is done?
> 
> Sometimes people just cannot see the forest for the trees though.




Like so many other of your posts, you twist your own perspectives and statements so completely and so rapidly with each successive post that it becomes effectively impossible to argue anything with you, as your logic manifests in an increasingly incongruent fashion. Not only that, your condescension continues to mount.

Building a character in Character Buildr != Playing an MMO and dynamically advancing through level/gear upgrades.



			
				justanobody said:
			
		

> You cannot add your own items or anything else, just like you cannot do so in video games. You are bound by only what exists in the system.




Copies of Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion and a huge host of other games disagree with your sentiment here.


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## Holy Bovine (Dec 22, 2008)

justanobody said:


> Oh goody it is on the last tabs rather than the first tab so you have to go back and forth still.
> 
> Then you have to select the _SOURCE section and turn it off even in the PHB tre to remove everything even if you have already done so like Draconomicon 2, and other books that are there but not even out yet.....




Wow - you really are a whiner aren't you?


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## justanobody (Dec 23, 2008)

Holy Bovine said:


> Wow - you really are a whiner aren't you?




No, I just can't stand stupid software designs for the looks of it rather than the function.

A computer isn't a toy made by Fisher Price, it is a tool, and all tools should be made for their function first. If CB was made to look pretty, then they did a good job, but for any other purpose it fails as software because it is unintuitive and has a pitiful user interface. It, like Vista, is made for stupid people that don't know how to use computers and need it to remind you of everything and in the process removes your options to "tweak" things to work for you as an individual because all the defaults are set for people that barely know how to turn on a computer this day and age.

I get so sick and tired of software for dummies.

They completely threw out the rules for good software design to make it look fancy and work poorly.

Its job is not to be hung on a wall like a piece of artwork, but is productivity software, and needed to be made for its purpose. Maybe the reason it is designed so poorly is because it relies so heavily on Windows and Microcrap Framework. So the same design stupidity was built into it.

It isn't that hard to set out and write software for the right purpose. Figure out what it needs to do and the proper way and order to do that.

This is why there hasn't been a decent chargen since they became official and taken out of fan abilities to create and share en-mass.

This problem is found most often in places where the software writers don't know the subject material they are writing software for like tax software where the users are accountants, but the coders are not. I find it funny that a closed system done in house the people don't know D&D well enough to know what order to do things in.

Break out the old wingdings and start using flowcharts for software design again. Outline the steps needed first to allow the user to make their selection. That would include first allowing the decision to enable or disable any features found in the software, THEN they start using the software.

It is very stupid to have people have to sort through all the added crap on first use because they hid the options on the last tab.

Hey I got an idea for a beta test. Include TFM so people can RTFM. But in designing something like this if you need a manual because all the hidden option selections then you have designed a poor piece of software and placed the options in the wrong place.

The make use of the menu bar for a few things, why not follow the standard and place other options right there!

Options -> Edit Preferences -> Hide MotP

Repopulating the menu at runtime isn't that hard, and doing so during a patch is even less bothersome as you just overwrite the program anyway with the patch and include the new menu options for the newly added data.

Always there and always waiting, not having to jump around tabs to figure out where someone hid some option to enable or disable something.

But the beta doesn't allow for UI bug reports as that is finished, it is only for other bugs where the devs didn't test for various platforms properly and can't figure out why things aren't working on anything but the machine it was written on. Just like the problems with Compendium and DDI website in general because they are writing for Microsoft proprietary software.

If you like bad software, then so be it. I have a copy of Atari 2600 ET game if you are interested.


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## Glyfair (Dec 23, 2008)

justanobody said:


> NIt is very stupid to have people have to sort through all the added crap on first use because they hid the options on the last tab.



Interesting.  I find it "stupid" to have to go through the option page every time I create a character, rather than having it on a page I go to once (like the last page or an options page) and choose the sources and *leave it*.   Your method I consider bad design.

Now, that assumes you don't have to adjust it every time you open the program.  Since it's not active in the beta we can't tell.  If you do than the first page make sense.  On the other hand, having to choose sources every time I consider poor design in the first place.


----------



## Vael (Dec 23, 2008)

There is a spot for Filters, it's just not enabled in this version. Under the "Finish" tab, there's a button called "Restrictions". It allows you to filter certain material out.


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## thalmin (Dec 23, 2008)

I really like what I've seen so far with the CB, but I have to agree with justanobody on one point. It would be more intuitive and more useful if the restrictions button was on the first tab, rather than the last. Being just a button would not require you to go through the restrictions every time you open the program.


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## justanobody (Dec 23, 2008)

Glyfair said:


> Interesting.  I find it "stupid" to have to go through the option page every time I create a character, rather than having it on a page I go to once (like the last page or an options page) and choose the sources and *leave it*.   Your method I consider bad design.
> 
> Now, that assumes you don't have to adjust it every time you open the program.  Since it's not active in the beta we can't tell.  If you do than the first page make sense.  On the other hand, having to choose sources every time I consider poor design in the first place.




The menu can have options selected and leave them as well. That is why programs started having INI or initialization files to tell the program what options to turn on/off at startup.

And your second bit explains exactly why the beta is poor because they are not effecting changes for people to test the changes to make sure they work.

All the more reason in cases of a database test you start with smaller amounts of data and test the heck out of the UI first. Then add the data later when the UI is working. They opted to go the other way and make a fixed UI and not properly test it for use but stuck things wherever for people to have to find.

Yeah it would be dumb to have to select each option each time it starts, and that is one of the first bugs to remove, but again this is a beta test of the demo product and not the full product, and the full product will not get beta testing at all.... 

This is why demos are made from the full tested product and then you just disable the things to cripple the software to the limits you want the demo to have. Not make the demo and test it and hope the full product doesn't have 1000 more bugs in it that weren't taken into account and properly tested for.


----------



## Sir Brennen (Dec 23, 2008)

justanobody said:


> A computer isn't a toy made by Fisher Price, it is a tool, and all tools should be made for their function first. If CB was made to look pretty, then they did a good job, but for any other purpose it fails as software because it is unintuitive and has a pitiful user interface. It, like Vista, is made for stupid people that don't know how to use computers and need it to remind you of everything and in the process removes your options to "tweak" things to work for you as an individual because all the defaults are set for people that barely know how to turn on a computer this day and age.
> 
> I get so sick and tired of software for dummies.
> 
> They completely threw out the rules for good software design to make it look fancy and work poorly.



Wow. See, I find your definition of poor design very strange. To me, if a fairly complex piece of software can be used by a dummy, then it's probably pretty intuitive. I also fail to see any removal of options. What we've got so far looks _very_ "tweakable" to me. As I mentioned earlier, I can go through and start creating a character - race, abilities, class, powers - then go back and change my race, and the affected stats get updated, as well as things mechanically dependent on them like defenses and powers.

As a DM, having "default" options will save me a ton of time when creating NPCs, and I can still tweak the default characters after they're created.

Your hat of the CB seems to know no limit, as you really seem upset about DDI as a whole, and more about the business decisions around it than the software itself.

May I suggest you're not entirely objective in your critique of the CB application itself?


----------



## Glyfair (Dec 23, 2008)

justanobody said:


> The menu can have options selected and leave them as well. That is why programs started having INI or initialization files to tell the program what options to turn on/off at startup.



Or instead have an "Options" or "Customization" menu elsewhere and not glaring at me on the first or last tab (far better than either WotC's choice, or yours).

I want my new players to be able to start creating a character and make their meaningful choices without this screen they might have no understanding of as their first experience of the program.


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## Sir Brennen (Dec 23, 2008)

justanobody said:


> Yeah it would be dumb to have to select each option each time it starts, and that is one of the first bugs to remove, but again this is a beta test of the demo product and not the full product, and the full product will not get beta testing at all....



Beta test  <> public test. You seem to keep making that mistake, acting like theres' no internal testing going on at all for the program. Though to avoid confusion, it probably should have been labeled "Open Beta Demo (feedback welcome)"


----------



## justanobody (Dec 23, 2008)

@Sir Brennen:

The problem is when you make something that only barely requires human interaction, then what point is there to make it for a human to use in the first palce?

You need to know a bit about what you are doing to use any kind of productivity software, and at the least know why you are using it.

This thing tries to walk you through step by step, but in the process neglects to put some of those steps in the right order, and doesn't really indicate what to do as you move from step to step.

It would normally be a case of RTFM, but there isn't a FM to R in the first place.

It is cute that these buttons light up slightly, but I can barely tell when they are on or off. There is nothing that states what you should be doing at one of the steps, and nothing that indicates where you can or cannot click.

Say you want to pick powers and don't want to pick your at-wills first, but want to pick your daily's. Did you know you can click the Daily line at the bottom and switch to picking them first?

IF it worked to aid humans rather than try to do everything for them in the wrong order it would be different.

I have looked at the CB like any other piece of software and critiqued it for what it is. The flow of the software would not have passed to the public for even a closed beta in the state it is in.

I unwilling reinstalled the thing to point are exacts problems with the software for those that seem to think I haven't even used it just because I haven't found all the hidden sections on the poorly designed and colored UI so will just give you a few things when it loads that are bad places to start the software....

I already mentioned pulling the newest update info form a website when there is no feature to even update, so right now that should be something local rather than even load another process or two to pull it wil IE, and leave a portion of IE running and display it. The HTML file could be on the client machine and never have to go out, as its current state may lock up computers when it cannot find a connection to the server, when someone wants to use the program offline. I had this happen a few times and had to use the task manager to end all the processes started by CB.

Mouse over buttons when you start. They are cute, but the glowy crap was over in the early 90's. How about a more professional look rather than the latest electronic toy from TOMY. (Is Tomytronics still around? Maybe HASBRO owns it by now....)

Now you go right into choosing a race!

PHB, MM, FR...all there. God forbid you want something from some book that is hidden in the list.

PHB is at top and FR and MM races are mixed in alphabetically.

Here is where the options need to be or a welcome screen or something that will tell you what steps wyou will be taking like pages 29-30 of the PHB itself.

That way someone not owning any core books, but that may be using completely digital products to play on DDI would know what they are doing.

So where on this page/tab do I disable MM races?

There is a place to create a custom element, but I haven't use the program yet (assuming first time user again remember) to even know what to do, and have no instructions as to what this custom element will even do compared to the predefined elements.

I can minimize all races and not be able to pick any of them unless I open the list back up....

This would be nice if you had to....wait! There is no point in closing the entire list when you MUST choose a race!

The program should have not even began with the splash screen as far as that goes even to backtrack.

There is a start tab that can handle all that for you. Even has the Wax seal saying it is beta. Here the Welcome bit talks to you like an idiot instead of providing usefull information on the software.

I mean someone will not be going to buy this at a store and pick up the wrong thing because they stumbled on it. The should already know waht D&D and 4th edition is if they subscribed to DDI. That is where the update and patch information could be contained when the program loads.

But back to the race tab....

I click on human, then have to click choose Human, and it takes me to a new page. What is the Next Step button there for all this time if it is going to move me along myself? To annoy me and be useless?

If all it ever does is move to the next tab in order, then it is useless since the tabs are all at the top. Wasted resources.

No I am choosing languages. I already went over this. But languages don't need to be here. They are window dressing and not something that other things depend on or have language as a requisite for choosing.

Again I can close the entire list of choices, but then have to open it again or stare at it unable to make a choice since they are all hidden, FR and PHB alike. 

Shall I go on, or do you think maybe I was judging CB for what it is? A part of a larger program in a service package and not a stand alone program. I am much harder on standalone programs that parts of a package, so If you want me to continue going over the faults of CB on its own merits, then I will be a lot harsher on it for its failings as a standalone program.



> "Open Beta Demo (feedback welcome)"




Yes that is exactly what it is as was stated in an Insider by Randy that this was the demo version of the program. THAT being stated may get it les critical reviews because many people are seeing it and saying "That's it? That's all I get?"

You need to test the full thing, and maybe just calling it a Beta Demo rather than attaching open or closed would work better.

@Glyfair:

Your players will still need some understanding of the program, and how many people want to use a computer to slow them down by having to track down options and such so they don't have to sort through mountains of lists for things that they won't even use or want to. Wasn't that a long time gripe about countless splatbooks and the reason behind the "everything is core" philosophy of 4th?


----------



## darjr (Dec 23, 2008)

uh... where did they ever say that the next releases of the closed builder with more levels wouldn't be a beta or still in testing? I think they said that it would still be in testing for a while.


----------



## justanobody (Dec 23, 2008)

darjr said:


> uh... where did they ever say that the next releases of the closed builder with more levels wouldn't be a beta or still in testing? I think they said that it would still be in testing for a while.




Digital Insider #19


> The majority of the team right now is focused on getting everything ready for *all* levels (1-30) of content, which we want ready to go for early next year. We’re still targeting the end of January, although that date is not yet set in stone.




Digital Insider #18


> We’re still on track to offer all 30 levels to our subscribers early in the new year. It won’t be available the first few weeks in 2009, but we’re working toward a time slightly after that; the closer we get to the date, the more details we’ll be able to share. We know how much you want the full 30 levels, and we’re working to get them into your hands as soon as possible.




Digital Insider #17: Beta and Playtests


> Meanwhile, I know the thing you really want is more levels… and you’ll get them soon, probably in January. For the next month or so, subscribers and the general public will both have access to the same level 1-3 Open Beta, but at some point shortly after the holidays being a subscriber goes back to being special again as we start rolling out more levels for Insiders only.




Wizards Community - View Single Post - Directed Discussion - Levels for Character Builder


			
				 mudbunny — Senior Volunteer Community Lead said:
			
		

> The character builder is currently available only for levels 1-3, and, according to reported plans, is likely to stay that way for the rest of the time for the beta.




Wizards Community - View Single Post - Directed Discussion - Levels for Character Builder


> I think you make a good point, which I cannot disagree with.
> Right now our main focus is to take the hundreds (thousands?) of bug reports and suggestions and get them done in time for the full version release. The full version release is waiting for a piece of software to keep it updated and secure which is still being tested and polished.
> 
> We have enough to keep us busy for a few weeks trust me. We are thinking about levels 4-30, and how to improve that data and experience also. I suspect that early next year when you get the full version there will be some minor data issues still like you describe. The updater technology will let us fix all those things every month though and they shouldn't stop you from making anything. So my goal is to get the full version cleaned up and locked down so we can give it to the players as soon as possible.
> ...




Wizards Community - View Single Post - Directed Discussion - Levels for Character Builder


> I got permission to clarify Randy's post that you quoted above.
> 
> The open beta will be late next week and will have some new content but still levels 1-3.
> 
> ...



What makes you think there will be any more beta after this demo version? All I see is that beta will be levels 1-3, and the next thing will be the full version.


----------



## darjr (Dec 23, 2008)

Ah, I stand better informed. And highly amused. Especially that in your very quotes they talk about covering and fixing issues that will come up at the 4-30 levels. Issues that they can't know about but will fix as needed.

It still makes your whole point about bad testing moot. The product will be a living one, getting fixes and updates as they deem necessary. In a way still being tested. Not cut and dried and 'done'.

Are they going to have further issues. I guarantee it. It is software.


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## joethelawyer (Dec 23, 2008)

justanobody said:


> If you like bad software, then so be it. I have a copy of Atari 2600 ET game if you are interested.




I LOVED that game!  Ever notice after he died, how if you wiggled the joystick, he would still kick his legs? it used to crack me up!


----------



## justanobody (Dec 23, 2008)

darjr said:


> Ah, I stand better informed. And highly amused. Especially that in your very quotes they talk about covering and fixing issues that will come up at the 4-30 levels. Issues that they can't know about but will fix as needed.
> 
> It still makes your whole point about bad testing moot. The product will be a living one, getting fixes and updates as they deem necessary. In a way still being tested. Not cut and dried and 'done'.
> 
> Are they going to have further issues. I guarantee it. It is software.




They will be testing them, but you already note that they missed other things in their own tests, and claims of fixes to some things already being in the open while only data was added to the open testing, and actual fixes to problems were not.

So their actions speak much more clearly than their words, and their words offer little to no trust as there actions are always contradicting them.

At least the volunteer is more trustworthy as s/he has nothing to gain from lying about the things or spreading misinformation.

Let us look at this "living" product. How often do you see major changes after a new dataset is added? They should have the core of the thing down and working and not need to update the core software because a new rows was added to the database. Once you have the database working and can lookup its info then you don't need major design anymore. That is all the thing really is. A few simple calculations in the right place and a database look up to place the chosen data in the right places.

A form filing piece of software shouldn't need this much work to make work.

Other people have made better with Javascript only a month after the release of 4th. They are just making something easy to create and adding complexity to the software where it isn't needed. It really is just the compendium with some math functions and only needs to access the same database as the compendium to pull data from. So whatever inhouse testing they will continue to do is only because they haven't gotten level 4-30 even done yet for the core, and don't know how to make them work.

@joethelawyer:

It is about the only thing about the game I know. I was always waiting for him to get back up and do more because he always fell into a hole no matter what you did. I think the game actually only have 2 stages. the holes maps, and a random hole to fall in other than the house....


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## darjr (Dec 23, 2008)

justanobody said:


> They will be testing them, but you already note that they missed other things in their own tests, and claims of fixes to some things already being in the open while only data was added to the open testing, and actual fixes to problems were not.




Please quote specific instances. I think your conflating some of the fixes going into the not yet released version with ones meant for the open beta.



justanobody said:


> So their actions speak much more clearly than their words, and their words offer little to no trust as there actions are always contradicting them.




Always? Every time their actions contradict their words? Huh, didn't they say they were going to release 4e... and lo it has been.



justanobody said:


> At least the volunteer is more trustworthy as s/he has nothing to gain from lying about the things or spreading misinformation.




Are you calling Scott Rouse a lier? How are you not calling him a lier?


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## justanobody (Dec 23, 2008)

darjr said:


> Please quote specific instances. I think your conflating some of the fixes going into the not yet released version with ones meant for the open beta.
> 
> Are you calling Scott Rouse a liar? How are you not calling him a liar?




Scott isn't working on the CB and probably is given little info on it to relay to people as thee are devs doing a lot of that. Scott has his hands full with 2010 products. I don't think other than starting this thread I have really seen him mention CB that much.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/4599569-post100.html

Check the links I provided in that post to note where some of the fixes found in closed beta were supposed to be in the open, but the only thing done to change the open was they added more data from things like Martial power.

The only thing done for a fix was during closed that had to do with Vista 64-bit or something. Other than that no actual fixes were made, just more data added to pacify people with playing with when it went open.


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## darjr (Dec 23, 2008)

justanobody said:


> Let us look at this "living" product. How often do you see major changes after a new dataset is added? They should have the core of the thing down and working and not need to update the core software because a new rows was added to the database. Once you have the database working and can lookup its info then you don't need major design anymore. That is all the thing really is. A few simple calculations in the right place and a database look up to place the chosen data in the right places




Wait, didn't you JUST complain that they were not doing ENOUGH testing and changing of things and fixing bugs. You make no sense. One minute you argue out of one side of your mouth, the next the other.

Which is it. Not enough beta testing, or to much? To many changes or not enough bug fixes. It seems to me that nothing they could do would make you happy. Are you just looking for reasons to disparage their efforts? Are you just a sapper waiting to sabotage any effort of WotC's? Please show me it isn't so.


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## justanobody (Dec 23, 2008)

What I am saying is they should have tested the core game full levels version. Then with it working they only need to add new data to it and not need to alter major portions of the UI or such and the data should work just like any previous data.

You don't test each new data line as you add it when it is only say a +2 version of a +1 item, just to make sure you are now adding 2 rather than 1 to an amount.

You are just not paying attention to what is being said and trying to combine everything said into one post, and it doesn't work that way. You are stuck in a rut in thinking.

The core needs to be thoroughly tested and working, then any new data added should not pose major problems. It is simple as that.

The problem with not testing 4-30 for a larger sample size than inhouse, is because there are many things that happen at those levels that do not happen at levels 1-3.

Like paragon paths, multiclassing, forced retraining, starting at 4th you get to increase ability scores, etc.

There is so much that needs to be tested beyond level 3 with the core data, that will give it a good test.

Then you just sit back and add new data.

You following now?


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## darjr (Dec 23, 2008)

justanobody said:


> the only thing done to change the open was they added more data from things like Martial power.




That is absolutely untrue. New functionality was added. Just off the top of my head there was a character summary added.


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## justanobody (Dec 23, 2008)

darjr said:


> That is absolutely untrue. New functionality was added. Just off the top of my head there was a character summary added.




Ok so rather than fix things they got in bug reports that would help solve problems they added something new, or unlocked something that was locked to offer more problems and bug.

Seems like the perfect thing for beta testing. Create as many bugs as possible and never fix any of them so that a bug in the beginning effects everything after that depends on that bugged section. 

How about we start a new thread about beta testing and you pose me and anyone else the questions you want me to answer so people can get back to discussing the CB itself without all the outside interference and we can use the new thread to discuss beta in general and what it should serve to do and how it should function that way and why.

That way people can discuss the CB directly and we will have to forked thread for the shift in topic.


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## firesnakearies (Dec 23, 2008)

Well, it may be a bunch of nonsense, but you have to hand it to the guy: at least he's really DEDICATED to his nonsense.


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## darjr (Dec 23, 2008)

justanobody said:


> What I am saying is they should have tested the core game full levels version. Then with it working they only need to add new data to it and not need to alter major portions of the UI or such and the data should work just like any previous data.




What makes the data for levels 4-30 NOT just like extra data added to an application? To me it makes sense to have developed that way. It seems they've said as much.



justanobody said:


> You don't test each new data line as you add it when it is only say a +2 version of a +1 item, just to make sure you are now adding 2 rather than 1 to an amount.




And the same could be said for the DATA that comprises the higher levels. Much and maybe even all of it could be boiled down to data added to a base of a tested piece of software.



justanobody said:


> You are just not paying attention to what is being said and trying to combine everything said into one post, and it doesn't work that way. You are stuck in a rut in thinking.




I've been paying WAY TO MUCH attention to your posts. I'm getting very tired of your belittling and condescending attitude as well. It is rude, unneeded and unproductive.



justanobody said:


> You following now?




All to clearly, however, not anymore.


----------



## justanobody (Dec 23, 2008)

Here is something new for those that care. While looking in the folder that CB forces itself into I noticed a program called character tracker.

Here you can load a character sheet without having to load the rest of the program. It is the same thing that runs when you open your character sheet, and that is all you have to do is go to open and load a ".dnd4e" file and your character sheet will open right up quicker than the full program if you don't need to see everything running but just want your character sheet open.

So use the CharTracker.exe without needing to open the builder software.

Why didn't they just give a link for that so people can use it?


----------



## Charwoman Gene (Dec 23, 2008)

justanobody said:


> Why didn't they just give a link for that so people can use it?




OMG HAX!!! Stop circumvbenting WotC controls you could destroy yuor computer.


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## silentounce (Dec 23, 2008)

This board really needs a negative xp button.  Like level draining or something.


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## justanobody (Dec 23, 2008)

Charwoman Gene said:


> OMG HAX!!! Stop circumvbenting WotC controls you could destroy yuor computer.




What? You get a shortcut to the builder, so why not the viewer since it can run by itself. You don't even need to bother with the builder to print something!


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Dec 23, 2008)

silentounce said:


> This board really needs a negative xp button.  Like level draining or something.



No, that just leads to negativity and hatred. Instead of giving negative XP, give everyone XP, except those you don't want to give any! 
Rewarding good behavior is better then trying to punish bad behavior. Think about how it works for trolls - if you answer them and call them on their , they feel their work is done. If you ignore them, they will feel their efforts have been pointless.

The same would apply to negative XP. Rather give positive XP to people you share an opinion with.


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## Obryn (Dec 23, 2008)

silentounce said:


> This board really needs a negative xp button.  Like level draining or something.



You know, I love the idea of neg rep, or negative XP.  I think it would be outstanding.

I am unsure, however, if the hilarity that ensued would be outweighed by the incessant annoyance and nerd-rage slapfights.

-O


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## Festivus (Dec 23, 2008)

For all the griping about how bad this system is, I found it to be very useful, easy to install and use, and while buggy, fairly functional for my needs.   Comparing that to some of the nice form filling character sheets that don't catch bugs, or the complex Excel spreadsheet one that is out there, I prefer this one much more.

I look forward to the full version, but am unsure if this is something that will be available to non-subscribers.  I thought it was going to be (the offline version) but if they are limiting it to levels 1-3 it loses some of it's function for me... I don't think I can afford a subscription to DDI right now.


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## justanobody (Dec 23, 2008)

I do think the plans changed for the core offline version to nons to just the 3 level demo version that is out now. It may lose it's BETA stamp, but I think levels 1-3 are all non's get to try the program.


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## vic20 (Dec 23, 2008)

*Keep up the good work!*

I've been very impressed with the CB program. It's the most impressive bit of software I've seen from Wizards (or subcontractors thereof?) to date.

I don't understand the sense of entitlement that some people have about the development lifecycle that they feel the need to belittle the efforts and intentions of others that are pouring themselves into creating this tool. It's not simple form management software. It is (will be) an engine that allows for exception-based elements to be added going forward; this is definitely no small programming feat.

Again, loving the work, and look forward to its full release.


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## Pseudopsyche (Dec 23, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Rewarding good behavior is better then trying to punish bad behavior. Think about how it works for trolls - if you answer them and call them on their , they feel their work is done. If you ignore them, they will feel their efforts have been pointless.



I have to agree. If you read a post with which you diagree, responding with your perspective can add to the thread.  If you encounter a person with whom you diagree, it's probably a waste of time to persuade them to change their mind.  I've gotten to point where I skip posts that have point-by-point rebuttals.

On topic: I love the character builder and look forward to the day when I never need to create a PC by hand again. The support for new crunch will really set it apart from previous such tools; I expect that we'll be able to use third-party crunch via houserules.  Although what if the GSL provided for other publishers to submit their own data files compatible with the Character Builder?


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## Kishin (Dec 23, 2008)

silentounce said:


> This board really needs a negative xp button.  Like level draining or something.




Then we all might as well move every thread here over to 4chan. I would not want to see how fast the community tears itself apart with that option.



			
				Pseudopsyche said:
			
		

> Although what if the GSL provided for other publishers to submit their own data files compatible with the Character Builder?




Neat idea, but given the fiery hells the Rouse and co. has had to be dragged through to try and get it to where folks are hoping it will end up (a journey that is still presently underway), I think making provision for something like this (that is, if it isn't already going on behind the scenes) would only complicate the matter further.

"GSL to include Character Builder add-on support! Delayed to 2017!"


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## firesnakearies (Dec 23, 2008)

Pseudopsyche said:


> Although what if the GSL provided for other publishers to submit their own data files compatible with the Character Builder?






This is an *awesome* idea!  I really hope they eventually implement something like this.



*$*


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## Mercule (Dec 24, 2008)

I just finally got a chance to play with the CharBuild and I have to say that it's an awesome tool.  Beautiful and functional.  I'm sure I'll find some things as I play with it, but my first impression is very positive.  I hope the Campaign Builder (or whatever the piece used to create the campaigns to be loaded is called) is as nice.  Since I almost exclusively home brew, that's a requirement.


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## justanobody (Dec 24, 2008)

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=17498123#post17498123


> After some more discussions here, and until we have the capability to mark a record in more than one source, we have chosen to go with the latest published source, instead of the original source.
> 
> This is mainly to be more in synch with the latest version of the Compendium, that offers source as a filter. So as of yesterday's compendium update, the minotaur will appear with a Dragon magazine source, while the Drow will have the Forgotten Realm Player's Guide source. The full version fo the Character Builder will use the same information.




So basically CB will only include the newest version of something because it has to function first to be legal for RPGA use.

So when you update you risk losing a class, race, feat, whatever from an older source and have to use the newest source info.

This sounds real smart.

Maybe they need to revmoe the RPGA legal bit until they have it working rather than remove data like the Minotaur from MM and replace it with a Dragon they may not own, or whatever appears for a Minotaur in Eberron....

Bad design indeed.

Seems this database search tools with a few calculators built in doesn't work well with handling data....


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## Kishin (Dec 24, 2008)

justanobody said:


> RPGA legal.... - Wizards Community
> 
> 
> So basically CB will only include the newest version of something because it has to function first to be legal for RPGA use.
> ...




Some of those changes were pretty necessary, considering how ridiculous Minotaur + Oversized Weapons were.

Also, you should consider a career in PR or politics. Your acumen for spin is amazing.


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## justanobody (Dec 24, 2008)

I stand by the fact that you should not alter the core books that people will be playing with or remove them from another product and outmode them for some new material than not everyone may have, or have access to.

Doesn't matter what the RPGA needs, bacuse a larger portion of players will NOT be in RPGA games, but in home games, and those people need to have access to the core material, not only the RPGA newest material.

This is a fault in programming.

Another reason where properly designed filters should be in place and accounted for as needed as the data grows.

Notice how compared to the Compendium, yet, then compendium includes both sets of rules for Drow and Minotaur?

Well there you go. It isn't that hard to figure out which steps to take to make it work here. This is the same thing all CBs have had a problem with is people not knowing how to make the data work with the software, IE bad software designers and programmers. There is no polygons to have to play with in CB, there is no skin that needs to be applied to a model, this is simple data management.

All you need is a filter for RPGA legal, and update the datasets to include a flag that says which is RPGA legal or not in the data rows. Done!

When you pull form the races table with RPGA only selected you only pull those races with the RPGA flag set.

When you pull from the races table with RPGA only turned off, you pull all races. Maybe you want to only pull PHB races so it gets a flag.

WotC decided to make the thing, so the least they could do is make it right.

1-PHB
2-DMG
3-MM

This code tells what book to filter books only in an index, and you only need the RPGA flag....

RPGA?
1=yes
0/null=no

Sheesh, you call it spin, but it is glaringly obvious how to get it to work quickly with a properly built database and system made to properly read that database, but even the compendium is lacking full filtering and such after how many months?


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## vic20 (Dec 24, 2008)

justanobody said:


> Seems this database search tools with a few calculators built in doesn't work well with handling data....




I think you are vastly under-estimating the complexity of the software architecture under the covers. I've got plenty of experience analyzing and designing software systems, and this sort of off-hand dismissal of reality is exactly the voice that will destroy quality. Oh boy, the stories I could tell...


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## justanobody (Dec 24, 2008)

vic20 said:


> I think you are vastly under-estimating the complexity of the software architecture under the covers. I've got plenty of experience analyzing and designing software systems, and this sort of off-hand dismissal of reality is exactly the voice that will destroy quality. Oh boy, the stories I could tell...




Look at this forums tables and its database, and you will see how simple it is I am talking about.

If they cannot get the data in correctly from the database, then there is no hope that the calculations are correct because you have the wrong things plugged into your formula.

The stories I could tell from using the wrong data to do the math with....


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## vic20 (Dec 24, 2008)

justanobody said:


> Look at this forums tables and its database, and you will see how simple it is I am talking about.




I think you are looking at the problem with much less experience than you think you are. Software is about more than just normalized relationships between tables. That is a very small corner of the Hundred Acre Wood.


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## justanobody (Dec 24, 2008)

vic20 said:


> I think you are looking at the problem with much less experience than you think you are. Software is about more than just normalized relationships between tables. That is a very small corner of the Hundred Acre Wood.




If it were something else I would agree, but all the CB does is what we do and everyone had to do in 1E. Compare tables and do some math.

Show the proper data on the tab form the right tables for the previously selected choices.

The math doesn't even play into it until the character sheet is viewed and all totals tallied.

Many programmers make things more complex than they really are.

I say again someone pull out the wingdings and make a flow chart of this program and what little it really does have to do like all other character generators.

There are ones made with Javascript and text databases rather than this that can do the same thing with less. They only lack all the DDI data and new book data, but the functions are the same. Just because you have more data, does not change the function of the program.

This is where building the database and the tables with the proper structure come into play and why it would be just that easy to add a field to the rows of all data elements to state are they RPGA or not as a flag, and then add the filter to select only those when the filter is on, and display those. When the flag for RPGA is turned off, then it goes back and pulls all the data for a given thing: feat, race, class, etc; same as if you wanted only things form the PHB to be displayed.

You don't need a Rube Goldberg program just to add complexity to the code, when something more simple will work.

K.I.S.S.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Dec 24, 2008)

vic20 said:


> I think you are looking at the problem with much less experience than you think you are. Software is about more than just normalized relationships between tables. That is a very small corner of the Hundred Acre Wood.




Besides, vBulletin (I think that's the name of the board software)  is in development since probably a decade or so?


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## vic20 (Dec 24, 2008)

justanobody said:


> If it were something else I would agree, but all the CB does is what we do and everyone had to do in 1E. Compare tables and do some math.




Nope. It's "real" software. I can appreciate your wanting to reduce the problem to a scale that you can relate to from your own personal technical experience, but you're not delivering a product. WotC is.


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## vic20 (Dec 24, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Besides, vBulletin (I think that's the name of the board software)  is in development since probably a decade or so?




That's a good point. The forum application as a whole represents a collaboration between separate system layers, each with (ideally) well encapsulated concerns and responsibilities. These layers are cross-cut with security, authentication, and role/group identity permissions. There's likely a php model-view-controller templating framework in there somewhere.

The illusion of simplicity is the reward of a well designed system. There are tens of thousands of lines of code hiding just out of view.


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## justanobody (Dec 24, 2008)

vic20 said:


> Nope. It's "real" software. I can appreciate your wanting to reduce the problem to a scale that you can relate to from your own personal technical experience, but you're not delivering a product. WotC is.




Boy I have worked with "real" software for 26 years, so don't need some punk kid telling me what is what!

The problem is that they, like many others, are not following one software development philosophy.

KISS - Keep it simple stupid!

They are adding levels of complexity to the software that it doesn't need and cannot get it to do the rudimentary functions it does need.

I mean how hard do you really think, or do you struggle with data management?

You know you have something that will change from being RPGA legal or not, so you set a flag for it and look for that flag when you look output results and choices.

It they have to repopulate their database to add an extra field to the rows, then that is there problem for not designing the database structure to begin with.

Sit your butt down away form the computer and write out by hand what you will need and make sure you got room for everything you need now, and the ability to add things later.

They screwed up at square one if they did not take into consideration these filters for either of the database tools CB, or Compendium.

Now you want to discuss the rest of DDI tools, then wait til they come out, but ALL a character generator is is as follows:

-Database lookup tools
-Variable/switch comparison tool
-Series of simple calculators

The other parts of the DDI suite have nothing to do with it. How the data gets in has nothing to do with making a character because it will not be done real time. Otherwise you would have to always be connected to a WotC server to use CB and could never use it offline.

Maybe you should get some knowledge about what you are talking about before you start jumping on people for not knowing what they are talking about.

When you actually say something technical, then maybe you will have some credibility in what you pop off.

All you are doing is spouting out catch phrases from things you seem to have heard about software.

Build a character generator and seem what it does.

I still haven't seen you present any flowchart yet, and I cannot find my dang stencils to draw one out so will likely have to do it digital from start and won't look that good as if by hand.

WotC is not delivering a product either. So far there is no DDI suite of tools. So far it is the same quality of software as you could call the CD that came with the 3rd edition books.

AFTER they have some form of decent software to show that works and works correctly, then I might think they know what they are doing, but otherwise they got in over their heads and planned more than they can produce just like past D&D related software save for that which was done by Evermore Entertainment.

I mean my mailman can deliver a product, do that make him a good software engineer?


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## Phaezen (Dec 24, 2008)

justanobody said:


> Boy I have worked with "real" software for 26 years, so don't need some punk kid telling me what is what!
> 
> <snip>
> 
> ...




<disclaimer>  I am not a software engineer, I do know several people who work as software engineers and they seem to spend a lot of time making simple programmes do what they are supposed to.  They also spend a lot of time working overtime around deadline and product delivery dates.  This software delivery thing is not as easy as people would believe.</disclaimer>

Back to the topic at hand.

Hmm the Character Builder demo seems to work very well, I am extremely satisfied with it.  The Compendium is also very nice thank you very much, updated on a monthly basis, including interface updates suggested by customers, new search filters and whatnot.  Well worth the price of admission.  I am waiting for the two to be intergrated next month and, yes, I am expecting there to be several database and software issues in and around rollout date, judging by the people I know who work in software development this is par for the course.

Of course, if you think you could do better please demonstrate.

Phaezen


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## justanobody (Dec 24, 2008)

Phaezen said:


> Of course, if you think you could do better please demonstrate.




Sure, give me the legal rights to do so and all the data.

Can't do that can you?


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## Plane Sailing (Dec 24, 2008)

justanobody said:


> Boy I have worked with "real" software for 26 years, so don't need some punk kid telling me what is what!





Do you need someone telling you that you are banned for a month? Because that is what has just happened.

You've had a weeks ban within the last month for offensive posting, so this time it goes up a notch.

If you want to participate in ENworld in the future, you must revise your standards of discourse.


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## firesnakearies (Dec 24, 2008)

justanobody said:


> Boy I have worked with "real" software for 26 years, so don't need some punk kid telling me what is what!
> 
> I mean how hard do you really think, or do you struggle with data management?
> 
> ...






Hmm.  I'm thinking that it might be about time for this guy to be excused from the thread...


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## firesnakearies (Dec 24, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:


> Do you need someone telling you that you are banned for a month? Because that is what has just happened.
> 
> You've had a weeks ban within the last month for offensive posting, so this time it goes up a notch.
> 
> If you want to participate in ENworld in the future, you must revise your standards of discourse.






Oh wow, I spoke too soon.  That's some serious wrath...


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## silentounce (Dec 24, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:


> Do you need someone telling you that you are banned for a month? Because that is what has just happened.
> 
> You've had a weeks ban within the last month for offensive posting, so this time it goes up a notch.
> 
> If you want to participate in ENworld in the future, you must revise your standards of discourse.




Thank you.  What kind of cookies do you like?  I'll have my wife bake you some.  It shouldn't cost that much to ship them to the UK.


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## Dinkeldog (Dec 24, 2008)

Please, everyone.  It's unseemly to go high fiving after a ban.


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## Rel (Dec 24, 2008)

Dinkeldog said:


> Please, everyone.  It's unseemly to go high fiving after a ban.




Correct.  And please no sending cookies to moderators for banning somebody as that looks suspiciously like bribery.  Leave the cookie sending to us fellow moderators who, I assure you, will see to it that Plane Sailing gets his "just desserts".


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## Mercule (Dec 24, 2008)

Well, despite nearly convincing me to disagree, so I didn't have to stand next to him, jan did have a good point.  I've found that the RPGA table rules that differ from the core tend to universally annoy me and are exactly the sort of rules I don't want to play under.

With the final release of the software, we're supposed to be able to implement house rules.  I really hope that this includes the ability to "grandfather" or re-implement some things that run counter to the latest RPGA stuff.  For example, while I can see where the minotaur/goliath with an oversized weapon is unbalanced, I find it irreconcilable to remove that ability from the PC version of the race while leaving it for the NPCs.  I would like the ability to include it in my campaign.


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## Festivus (Dec 24, 2008)

Mercule said:


> With the final release of the software, we're supposed to be able to implement house rules. I really hope that this includes the ability to "grandfather" or re-implement some things that run counter to the latest RPGA stuff. For example, while I can see where the minotaur/goliath with an oversized weapon is unbalanced, I find it irreconcilable to remove that ability from the PC version of the race while leaving it for the NPCs. I would like the ability to include it in my campaign.





I am sure you will be able to do that.  While I disagree with you about monsters having to be built with the same system the PCs are, I do agree that the system should be as flexible as possible.


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## Mercule (Dec 24, 2008)

Festivus said:


> I am sure you will be able to do that.  While I disagree with you about monsters having to be built with the same system the PCs are, I do agree that the system should be as flexible as possible.



I don't care if PCs and NPCs use the same system.  It's the end result that matters.  If NPC goliaths wield big freakin' weapons because they're somewhat oversized, then PC goliaths should be able to, as well.  If it's unbalanced for PCs, just say it's not a PC-able race -- isn't that pretty much what you'd say about a pit fiend?  The only difference is scale.

I'll make the concession that it could be the "big" racial ability or that it could even require a feat (or feat tree) to do, but a PC needs the potential.

One of the things I hated about oD&D was the long tradition of having NPCs (usually wizards) who could do some interesting things or make neat toys that the PCs never could.  "Because he's an NPC" is an absolutely horrid reason for an ability.  Make it require 40 years of study or the bartering away of one's soul or something else prohibitive, just don't make it truly impossible.

With the over-sized weapons, I'm just afraid that there is no good excuse, though.  It's inherent to the race, for NPCs.

I'm not saying that the PCs and NPCs need the same builds or stats.  But saying that PC goliaths cannot use oversized weapons is as ridiculous as saying PC wizards can't cast fire spells.  Sure, an NPC wizard may have a rechargeable fire spell, while the PC doesn't, but they can both do it.  Maybe the goliath gets a racial daily stance that lets him wield oversized weapons for the duration of the encounter -- it tires him out, but he can do it when the chips are down.


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## vic20 (Dec 24, 2008)

justanobody said:


> When you actually say something technical, then maybe you will have some credibility in what you pop off.




Here's some Java code for you: 


```
System.gc();
```

Back on topic: I imagine that the final product will allow for flexibility at least to the point where you'll be able to customize your weapon to do whatever damage you want. It'll be marked "houseruled" but you should be able to be a Minotaur with a big sword.


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## diaglo (Dec 24, 2008)

Mercule said:


> One of the things I hated about oD&D was the long tradition of having NPCs (usually wizards) who could do some interesting things or make neat toys that the PCs never could.  "Because he's an NPC" is an absolutely horrid reason for an ability.  Make it require 40 years of study or the bartering away of one's soul or something else prohibitive, just don't make it truly impossible.




actually PCs could make items in OD&D. it just required the player to write it up and get the referee to make a ruling. it also required gobs and gobs of gold. a well stocked lab. and most of the time... time and material exotic components. and then there was still a chance it failed. and they had to start over...

which many groups were very much against doing... taking time off from adventuring to wait for the crafter.


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## Mercule (Dec 24, 2008)

diaglo said:


> actually PCs could make items in OD&D.



It's been long enough since I played anything pre-3e, that I can't remember the specifics.  I just remember there were a smattering of "only NPCs can do that" that ticked me off.


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## Pseudopsyche (Dec 25, 2008)

firesnakearies said:


> This is an *awesome* idea!  I really hope they eventually implement something like this.



Technologically speaking, WotC just needs to implement functionality allowing DMs to export their house rules for their players to import.  Then third-party publishers can use the same functionality to share their crunch with their consumers.  I don't know about the licensing considerations, however.


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## DaveyJones (Dec 29, 2008)

Mercule said:


> It's been long enough since I played anything pre-3e, that I can't remember the specifics. I just remember there were a smattering of "only NPCs can do that" that ticked me off.




it wasn't so much only the NPCs could do that as it was a handwave by the referee to not have to go into an NPC/referee dialog and hold up the game. or show all the behind the scenes gathering of components and failures in the process.

the PCs could do it. but it meant the player had to write up the stuff.

after 1999 it has become so the player can do the method/formulary more easily for the game being played with the new rules. the referee can plug the NPCs into the same formulary and it doesn't change much.


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## AllisterH (Dec 29, 2008)

DaveyJones said:


> it wasn't so much only the NPCs could do that as it was a handwave by the referee to not have to go into an NPC/referee dialog and hold up the game. or show all the behind the scenes gathering of components and failures in the process.
> 
> the PCs could do it. but it meant the player had to write up the stuff.
> 
> after 1999 it has become so the player can do the method/formulary more easily for the game being played with the new rules. the referee can plug the NPCs into the same formulary and it doesn't change much.




Er, I think you might be underselling how difficult item creation was in pre-3E.

I'll give two examples, straight from the books.

From 2e's black cover DMG

A 17th level mage wishes to create a +5 sword.

Requires the "_Contact Other Plane"_ spell to find out the steps needed. 

1st step: Shape a sword blade from his own hands using ore from a SPECIFIC mountain in a SPECIFIC area.

He gets there but to remove the ore, the owners require the mage to pass a test. 

He then has to recover from that test, take the ore to be blessed with PURE SPRING WATER from a specific site. (All told, this mage isn't doing this in a week. we're looking at the better part of a fortnight at least if not a month or two)

It takes about a month then to actually construct the blade itself from the ore.

Then he has to dip the blade in fresh black pudding acid, have the blade be blessed in a church and then a paladin must lay hands on it. (Now finding the church is no problem but the acid and the paladin are adventures in themselves as the acid is not something that remains fresh for long and paladins are REALLY rare pre-3E)

Now all of this takes about another fortnight at least hunting down all the people/places involved.

THEN the mage has to spend days casting _"Enchant an Item"_ on the sword, 5 castings of the _"Enchanted Weapon"_ (one for each plus) and then since by the time you get through the Enchanted Weapon spell, he has to recast the Enchant an Item spell a couple more times.

Finally, he has to cast _PERMANENCY_ (and risk losing a pt of con) and after all of that, the DM rolls to see if the player was successful. Even with all his steps, the chance for this sword is 65% so the DM has to roll under(rolling anything above 95% being a cursed sword)

Needless to say, the player isn't going to be creating many +5 swords at all.

How about a couple more examples? 
An 8th level cleric creating a scroll of Neutralize poison. Shouldn't be too hard right since this is a spell the cleric knows already....and the slightly more useful Wand of Fire (which became the Staff of fire in 3e).

PO:S&M 
Requires the ink to include the rare nightshade plant harvested during the dark of the moon. Takes the cleric about a week to locate and accomplish this at the right time.

Then she must steep the quill used to write the scroll in the venom of an adder (a couple of days here) and then actually takes ANOTHER week to actually create the scroll.

Even with all this effort, the cleric still has a 5% chance of creating a cursed scroll.


Now, a 14th level mage wants to create a wand of Fire.
Uses Contact other plane to shorten the reseach time (he has a laboratory already set-up) and thus only requires 2 weeks (without the contact other plane spell or any other "commune" type spell, reseach takes 1d6+1 weeks)

Result?

To create a wand of fire, the mage requires
1 Wand forged by a master smith of the Azer race 
2 Using brass smelted in the Efreeti City of Brass 
3 That must then be tempered by the breath of an ADULT RED DRAGON
4 Ten enscribed while still malleable with an exotic red ruby and finally
5 Polished with a mixture that contains the ash of a 1000 year old tree  destroyed by fire.....

Needless to say, we're talking several months to set up here (36 weeks as per the book)....but wait, we're not done yet.

He then must spend several days casting "Enchant an Item" then several more days casting the spells Pyrotechnics, Burning Hands, Fireball and Wand of Fire 

Then the DM checks to see if the player was actually successful. Would you believe that the book only gives the player a 77% chance and that's only because of the DM bonus of 10% because the DM thinks he was creatve with the processes and 5% since the character was a specialist.

Oh yeah, player pre3E were really lining up and begging their DM to create magic items....


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## DaveyJones (Dec 29, 2008)

AllisterH said:


> Oh yeah, player pre3E were really lining up and begging their DM to create magic items....



 don't worry about me underselling. i run it a lot differently.


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## silentounce (Dec 29, 2008)

All that old school item creation stuff was awesome.  It made magic items actually worth something.  Nowadays they're just given out like candy.  It's just an extra plus one.

Most campaigns a PC can just walk down to the local magic shop and buy one.  But when those rules for creation were written a campaign world where magic was rare was the norm.


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## Plane Sailing (Dec 30, 2008)

Back on topic!

I like the character builder. Generally speaking it is nice and smart, displays the text and options attractively and produces nice character sheets.

I've only got a few quibbles with it so far. The biggest one revolves around the difference between "save" and "save as", so to speak. Each time I make an update to a character, I want to save my progress, so I press "Save" - but I'm given a 'save as' style dialog and asked if I want to overwrite my old file if I select that.

The default behaviour should surely be just to save the current file when you press save (and give a different option for saving a copy, for instance)

I agree with justanobody that the install process should have included a shortcut to the character sheet display application, since that gives a quick and easy way to display the sheet for use or printing. I can't think of any good reasons for hiding what is essentially a useful standalone application. Hopefully they will fix that in the installer for the final version.

Cheers


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## Glyfair (Dec 30, 2008)

silentounce said:


> Most campaigns a PC can just walk down to the local magic shop and buy one.  But when those rules for creation were written a campaign world where magic was rare was the norm.



In theory.  In practice there was a glut of +1 swords, armor, rings of protection, etc.  It was amazing how many of these things were created when the process was so hard.


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