# Animate Dead, is it really worth it?



## Corlon (Jan 17, 2005)

Getting the book Libris Mortis and seeing the warlocks animate dead invocation (the dead walk I think) inspired me to look back at the exact text of animate dead, and seeing it again just made me wonder if having it as a spell/invocation was really worth it.  I mean, let's say a 9th level caster uses it.  That's up to 18 HD of skeletons and/or zombies.  The only even slightly dangerous sekeleton (well, for that level anyways) would be the Huge skeleton (CR 2) which you could get four of, as well as one large skeleton.  You could also get one gargantuan skeleton in addition to a large skeleton, which would be a fairly good investment, seeing as a gargantuan skeleton is pretty good at pumeling things.  Zombies have pretty much the same problem, but I think they're a bit worse because of the more HD for less fighting ability.

Getting up into Huge+ size categories could be a good use for the spell, but then my question is (especially for warlocks) how to find a large amount of large sized corpses (well, besides going out and butchering giants).

Are there good uses for smaller sized zombies/skeletons?

I know about the corpse crafter feat set from Libris Mortis, but that's only really good for a person specializing in summoning creatures, and not just picking up animate dead.


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## frankthedm (Jan 17, 2005)

Corlon said:
			
		

> Getting the book Libris Mortis and seeing the warlocks animate dead invocation (the dead walk I think) inspired me to look back at the exact text of animate dead, and seeing it again just made me wonder if having it as a spell/invocation was really worth it.  I mean, let's say a 9th level caster uses it.  That's up to 18 HD of skeletons and/or zombies.  The only even slightly dangerous sekeleton (well, for that level anyways) would be the Huge skeleton (CR 2) which you could get four of, as well as one large skeleton.  You could also get one gargantuan skeleton in addition to a large skeleton, which would be a fairly good investment, seeing as a gargantuan skeleton is pretty good at pumeling things.  Zombies have pretty much the same problem, but I think they're a bit worse because of the more HD for less fighting ability.




You are incorrectly using the 3.0 monster manual with 3.5 spells, classes and abilities. In 3.5 skeleton and zombie are templates. Even in 3.0 Wotc was quick to provide templates for better undead than the monster manual [see thier website]

Rhino zombies are good beat-sticks

Large undead
Hit Dice:	16d12+3 / 107 HP
Initiative:	-1
Speed:	30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class:	18 (–1 size, -1 dex, +10 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple:	+8/+21
Attack:	Gore +16 melee (2d6+13)
Space/Reach:	10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: as zombie	
Special Qualities: as zombie	
Saves:	as 16 HD zombie
Abilities: Str 28, Dex 8, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 1
Skills:	
Feats:	toughness



SKELETON
Skeletons are the animated bones of the dead, mindless automatons that obey the orders of their evil masters.
A skeleton is seldom garbed in anything more than the rotting remnants of any clothing or armor it was wearing when slain. A skeleton does only what it is ordered to do. It can draw no conclusions of its own and takes no initiative. Because of this limitation, its instructions must always be simple. A skeleton attacks until destroyed.
CREATING A SKELETON
“Skeleton” is an acquired template that can be added to any corporeal creature (other than an undead) that has a skeletal system (referred to hereafter as the base creature).
Size and Type: The creature’s type changes to undead. It retains any subtype except for alignment subtypes (such as good) and subtypes that indicate kind. It does not gain the augmented subtype. It uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.
Hit Dice: Drop any Hit Dice gained from class levels (to a minimum of 1) and raise remaining Hit Dice to d12s. If the creature has more than 20 Hit Dice, it can’t be made into a skeleton by the animate dead spell.
Speed: Winged skeletons can’t use their wings to fly. If the base creature flew magically, so can the skeleton.
Armor Class: Natural armor bonus changes to a number based on the skeleton’s size:
Tiny or smaller	+0
Small	+1
Medium or Large	+2
Huge	+3
Gargantuan	+6
Colossal	+10
Attacks: A skeleton retains all the natural weapons, manufactured weapon attacks, and weapon proficiencies of the base creature, except for attacks that can’t work without flesh. A creature with hands gains one claw attack per hand; the skeleton can strike with each of its claw attacks at its full attack bonus. A skeleton’s base attack bonus is equal to 1/2 its Hit Dice.
Damage: Natural and manufactured weapons deal damage normally. A claw attack deals damage depending on the skeleton’s size. (If the base creature already had claw attacks with its hands, use the skeleton claw damage only if it’s better.)
Diminutive or Fine	1
Tiny	1d2
Small	1d3
Medium	1d4
Large	1d6
Huge	1d8
Gargantuan	2d6
Colossal	2d8
Special Attacks: A skeleton retains none of the base creature’s special attacks.
Special Qualities: A skeleton loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks. A skeleton gains the following special qualities.
Immunity to Cold (Ex): Skeletons are not affected by cold.
Damage Reduction 5/Bludgeoning: Skeletons lack flesh or internal organs.
Saves: Base save bonuses are Fort +1/3 HD, Ref +1/3 HD, and Will +1/2 HD + 2.
Abilities: A skeleton’s Dexterity increases by +2, it has no Constitution or Intelligence score, its Wisdom changes to 10, and its Charisma changes to 1.
Skills: A skeleton has no skills.
Feats: A skeleton loses all feats of the base creature and gains Improved Initiative.
Environment: Any, usually same as base creature.
Organization: Any.
Challenge Rating: Depends on Hit Dice, as follows:
Hit Dice	Challenge Rating
1/2	1/6
1	1/3
2–3	1
4–5	2
6–7	3
8–9	4
10–11	5
12–14	6
15–17	7
18–20	8
Treasure: None.
Alignment: Always neutral evil.


Troll Skeleton
Large Undead
6d12 (39 hp)
+7
30 ft. (6 squares)
14 (+3 Dex, –1 size, +2 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 11
+3/+13
Claw +8 melee (1d6+6)
2 claws +8 melee (1d6+6) and bite +3 melee (1d6+3)
10 ft./10 ft
—
Damage reduction 5/bludgeoning, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to cold, undead traits
Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +5
Str 23, Dex 16, Con —, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 1
Improved Initiative
Cold mountains
Any
3
None
Always neutral evil
—
—
Chimera Skeleton
Large Undead
9d12 (58 hp)
+6
30 ft. (6 squares)
13 (+2 Dex., –1 size, +2 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 11
+4/+12
Bite +7 melee (2d6+4)
Bite +7 melee (2d6+4) and bite+7 melee (1d8+4) and gore +7 melee (1d8+4) and 2 claws +2 melee (1d6+2)
10 ft./5 ft
—
Damage reduction 5/bludgeoning, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to cold, undead traits
Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +6
Str 19, Dex 15, Con —, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 1
Improved Initiative
Temperate hills
Any
4
None
Always neutral evil
10–13 HD (Large); 14–27 HD (Huge)
—

ZOMBIE
Zombies are corpses reanimated through dark and sinister magic.
Because of their utter lack of intelligence, the instructions given to a newly created zombie must be very simple.
CREATING A ZOMBIE
“Zombie” is an acquired template that can be added to any corporeal creature (other than an undead) that has a skeletal system (referred to hereafter as the base creature). 
Size and Type: The creature’s type changes to undead. It retains any subtypes except alignment subtypes and subtypes that indicate kind. It does not gain the augmented subtype. It uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.
Hit Dice: Drop any Hit Dice from class levels (to a minimum of 1), double the number of Hit Dice left, and raise them to d12s. If the base creature has more than 10 Hit Dice (not counting those gained with experience), it can’t be made into a zombie with the animate dead spell.
Speed: If the base creature can fly, its maneuverability rating drops to clumsy.
Armor Class: Natural armor bonus increases by a number based on the zombie’s size:
Tiny or smaller	+0
Small	+1
Medium	+2
Large	+3
Huge	+4
Gargantuan	+7
Colossal	+11
Base Attack: A zombie has a base attack bonus equal to 1/2 its Hit Dice.
Attacks: A zombie retains all the natural weapons, manufactured weapon attacks, and weapon proficiencies of the base creature. A zombie also gains a slam attack.
Damage: Natural and manufactured weapons deal damage normally. A slam attack deals damage depending on the zombie’s size. (Use the base creature’s slam damage if it’s better.)
Fine	1
Diminutive	1d2
Tiny	1d3
Small	1d4
Medium	1d6
Large	1d8
Huge	2d6
Gargantuan	2d8
Colossal	4d6
Special Attacks: A zombie retains none of the base creature’s special attacks.
Special Qualities: A zombie loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks. A zombie gains the following special quality.
Single Actions Only (Ex): Zombies have poor reflexes and can perform only a single move action or attack action each round. A zombie can move up to its speed and attack in the same round, but only if it attempts a charge.
Saves: Base save bonuses are Fort +1/3 HD, Ref +1/3 HD, and Will +1/2 HD + 2.
Abilities: A zombie’s Strength increases by +2, its Dexterity decreases by 2, it has no Constitution or Intelligence score, its Wisdom changes to 10, and its Charisma changes to 1.
Skills: A zombie has no skills.
Feats: A zombie loses all feats of the base creature and gains Toughness.
Environment: Any land and underground. 
Organization: Any.
Challenge Rating: Depends on Hit Dice, as follows:
Hit Dice	Challenge Rating
1/2	1/8
1	1/4
2	1/2
4	1
6	2
8–10	3
12–14	4
15–16	5
18–20	6
Treasure: None.
Alignment: Always neutral evil


Wyvern Zombie
Large Undead
14d12+3 (94 hp)
+0
20 ft. (4 squares; can’t run), fly 60 ft. (poor)
20 (–2 size, +12 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 20
+7/+16
Slam +11 melee (2d6+7) or talons +11 melee (2d6+5)
Slam +11 melee (2d6+7) or talons +11 melee (2d6+5)
—
Single actions only, damage reduction 5/slashing, darkvision 60 ft., undead traits
Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +9
Str 21, Dex 10, Con —, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 1
—
Toughness
Warm hills
Any
4
None
Always neutral evil
16–20 HD (Huge)
—


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## Corlon (Jan 17, 2005)

I guess it's not so great in 3.0 then...

seems fun for 3.5.

Thanks for the info, but can you really blame me for not wanting to spend an additional $90?


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## AuraSeer (Jan 17, 2005)

Corlon said:
			
		

> Are there good uses for smaller sized zombies/skeletons?



They're not bad for support if you have lots of them. Have them surround enemies and use the Aid Another action, so your more powerful living fighters get large bonuses to hit. The undead won't last long if the enemy focusses on them, but every attack spent on a zombie means one less attack doing damage to somebody important. (And each round the enemy cleric turns undead, that's one round of delay before the _flame strike_ comes down.)

Unfortunately they're fragile, so an adventuring necromancer will find himself spending lots of money on the spell's material component. Warlocks have the advantage here, as long as they have access to a steady supply of corpses.

Outside of combat they're good for manual labor. When you need to fill in a pit trap (or dig a new one), or chisel through a ten-foot-thick stone wall, or carry a thousand pounds of treasure back to town, an utterly tireless workforce comes in handy.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jan 17, 2005)

Corlon said:
			
		

> Thanks for the info, but can you really blame me for not wanting to spend an additional $90?




SRD?


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## frankthedm (Jan 17, 2005)

For the most "power" a 16 HD dragon would be best.

For cool factor an zombified celestial unicorn charger would rule.


 Zombie Celestial Charger, [advanced unicorn]
 Large Magical Beast
Hit Dice:	16d12+3  (107 hp)
Initiative:	+3
Speed:	60 ft. (12 squares)
Armor Class:	22 (–1 size, +3 Dex, +9 natural, touch 12, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple:	+8/+20
Attack:	Horn +15 melee (1d8+12) or slam +15 melee [1d8+12]
Space/Reach:	10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks:	
Special Qualities:	zombie
Saves:	As zombie
Abilities:	Str 26, Dex 16, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 1
Skills:	 
Feats:	toughness

I don't blame you for not wanting to spend $90, the 3.0 template is on the wotc site.
http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20010126a
http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20011027a


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## NPC (Jan 18, 2005)

Gray Renders are also great undead.

 Basically anything you kill in your adventuring has the potential to become your minion.  Pretty powerful, IMO.

 Get this, female my kobold sorcerer took Leadership as a feat and chose an evil cleric cohort (it was an evil campaign).  After one nasty encounter, he animated two griffons and a gray render (the max HD he could control at the time).  

 She may not have been the most powerful spellcaster (Rog/Sor going for Arcane Trickster), but she sure had some melee power at her command (if indrectly through her cohort).


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## Shin Okada (Jan 18, 2005)

Warlock's "the Dead Walks" version is very convenient as you can choose not to spend material component and create skeletons and zombies which crumble to dust within few minuets.

Say, your party is fighting against a lot of Ogres. One Ogre falls, your Warlock touches it and now you have a 8HD Ogre zombie on your side. Another Ogre falls, you touch the body and now you have another 8HD Ogre Zombie on your side. Convenient, isn't it?


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## azmodean (Jan 18, 2005)

This actually came up just a few days ago in my game.  The party knew they would be fighting an adult blue dragon.  I allowed the cleric to research based on what they had observed of the dragon and determine that the dragon was just barely small enough to animate as a skeleton.  (the dragon as written had 21 HD, which is too large, but I'm not going to let a single HD get in the way.  Of course, the skeleton created is 20HD as per the rules.)  The party decided that they needed some extra muscle for the fight, so they ask around and discover that there are some giant monsterous scorpions within travelling distance, so they go hunting and nab themselves a gargantuan scorpion skeleton to help kill the dragon.  (I think it's debatable wether the rules intend to let an extoskeleton count as a skeleton, but I decided to go with it.)

Both of the skeletons are pretty nasty characters, the dragon more so of course, as they both keep all of their natural attacks.

Here's how a skeleton generally compares to the original creature.
worse:
Fewer HP (no con bonus) (though creating it in the effect of a desecrated altar helps, add in the bonus from corpse crafter and it might have HP similar to the living creature)
Lower AC (large creatures generally get most of their AC from a very large natural armor bonus, which is replaced by a much lower skeletal natural armor bonus)  Generally, anything worth fighting can hit your skeleton.
lower bab (skeletons use 1/2HD for BAB progression, so the dragon lost half its BAB)
Lower saves (skeletons get all bad saves)
Lose all special attacks and defenses except when granted from an elemental subtype(defense only)
Mindless, The primary problem with this is I have yet to find anything indicating that a skeleton can be ordered to grapple a target.

GOOD:
Undead immunities, which makes the terrible fort and will saves just fine, unless someone has disentegrate.


As you can see, it doesn't even compare to the original creature, but if you can take a creature your party can barely take out and then animate it, it's a pretty potent ability.

Especially as the cleric now has both a gargantuan skeletal scorpion and a huge skeletal dragon.


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## Shin Okada (Jan 18, 2005)

Is "up to 20HD" cap still in 3.5e? Now with Animate Dead spell, you can make a skeleton up to HD twice your caster level. That means, a 11+ level casters can easily create bigger undeads. Or, with Desecrate spell, a 6th level caster can create an undead with 6 x 4 = 24 HD. Am I missing something?


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## Magesmiley (Jan 19, 2005)

My first thought upon reading the title of the post was, "are you serious?"

The 3.0 vs 3.5 issue makes it more understandable. Having recently played a cleric (Wee Jas)/wizard/true necromancer I can say that its an incredibly great spell. 

I managed to get an athach skeleton at one point, and it was hideously effective in combat (and when my character died to a series of fireballs, the rest of the party found out just how effective). Even at lower levels, I was constantly wandering around with lower-power skeletons. Even weak ones are very effective at dealing with a number of difficulties. Sweeping for traps, blocking for a round while spellcasters fry things, flanking for the rogue, etc. You do have to be very scrupulous about making sure you're abiding the rules for commanding them however.

A couple of considerations here too - if you're planning long-term to have hordes of skeletal/zombie minions, look real hard at multi-classing as cleric/wizard. As the animate dead spell is governed by CASTER LEVEL and not character level, you can potentially have 4x your cleric caster level + 4x your wizard caster level under your control (and tack on a few more via the rebuke undead ability too). Unhallow is your friend when it comes

By adding Practiced Spellcaster for both cleric and wizard, you can bump up your caster level and compensate for mult-classing - essentially controlling 8x your character level in zombies/skeletons.

Unhallow is your friend at lower levels for animating too. A 5th level cleric could animate a 20HD creature in an unhallowed area (ouch). The bigger creatures are way more valuable than the small ones as they're tougher and more resistant to turning and rebuking (which is WAY worse if the other cleric manages to command your undead). I typically kept one creature of the largest variety I could get my hands on, and filled out my levels of control with several smaller ones.

One last fun tidbit is the vigor spells. These are great as they work on undead as well as live characters. They provide the fast healing ability (which DOES work on undead) rather than using positive energy to heal.


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## Shin Okada (Jan 19, 2005)

Lesser Vigor spell says "Target : Living creature touched". So never work on undeads. So as other Vigor spells which refer to this spell.

Mass Lesser Vigor spell says "Target : One creature/two levels, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart". So by the wording, this spell and Vigorous Circle can target non-living creatures. But I doubt if this is how the designer intended, as those 2 spells are still Vigor spells.


Regarding caster levels cap. So, a True Necromancer Spellstitched Lich can possibly control up to x12 HD worth of Skeletons and Zombies in total? It may have caster levels as a Cleric, as a Wizard, and as a spell-like ability user.


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## Corlon (Jan 20, 2005)

I hadn't thought of the utility for a player character for manual labor.  I was thinking more on the BBEG army of death lines.  





Jeff, if you're here, please don't read any further   









The current situation is riots are being caused in different towns, and eventually armies of the undeath willl eventually be massely teleported in to kill the cities weakened by the riots (this is done because the undead are trying to take over the prime material plane by turning it into their own plane, it's a sort of abstract "not by the RAW" thing). 
The guy starting the riots and keeping them going is a bard, and I figured I'd have a pale master, true necromancer, or master of shrouds as the general overseeing the taking of the city.  Seems I'll go for the true necromancer (cleric 3/wizard 3/ true necromancer 4), and have him control a bunch of undead.
I'm thinking some hydras or girrilloins for a bunch of attacks.


Any other ideas?


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