# Gamers Opinion of PCGen (No Rants)



## Knightcrawler (Aug 25, 2002)

I thought I'd put this question out.  What do most gamers think of PCGen.  Is it useful, how do you use it, what are the problems and any ideas that you can offer.

I'm looking for constructive criticism and ideas, not empty rants and flames.  So if all you want to do is attack PCGen please don't post on this thread.

One of the things that I do want to hear about is: Does PCGen make it so you don't have to buy the book?   That I know is a concern often voiced by publishers.


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## TBoarder (Aug 25, 2002)

This is negative, but hopefully not a flame.  I actually do appreciate all the work that's been put into PCGen.

I tried PCGen twice (sorta, as I'll explain).  The first time I tried it was pretty close to its first release.  I was utterly and completely confused.  I don't think I got a single character entered into it before I gave up on it.

The second time I tried it was around version 2.4.  I was able to see some major improvements.  The interface was still horribly unintuitive but after some playing around with it, was able to enter in most of my characters (about 3 dozen).

The problem was that I couldn't figure out how to create custom options.  One character I was playing was a young black dragon.  I couldn't create the character at that time because dragons weren't in the program yet.  I looked a bit at the possibility of creating it as a custom race and my eyes just glazed over.  When I wanted a character to have a single feat from an unsupported book, I just left that slot blank.  It seemed like far too much work to learn how to make one up myself.  Wow, that makes me sound lazy, doesn't it? 

Here's what killed the program for me completely.  I kept up with the program, consistantly downloading the weekly updates and bug fixes.  This broke many of the characters I had entered into it already.  The constant GUI revisions and additions meant I was pretty much relearning the program from scratch every single time I updated it.  Tabs were added that, to this day, I have no idea what their function is, or how they work.  I was never able to find any sort of documentation as to what their purpose was, and the description in the weekly Yahoo e-mail was vague and unhelpful.

I gave up.  PCGen was just something I didn't want to use anymore.  The GUI revisions weren't much more intuitive (_especially[/] the location of that @&#% alignment tab.  I'd lose that every single time I'd make up a character.)  I was tired of constantly re-entering my characters and of constantly relearning the program.  Granted, I know I'm not a normal D&D player.  I don't many other players who have 2 or 3 dozen characters, so my opinion probably skews this thread in the wrong direction without giving the benefit of the opinion of an average D&D player.

Has PCGen made it so I didn't have to buy any books?  Nope, but it did make me decide not to buy a few.  It also led me into buying a few as well.  Being able to see what new feats and prestige classes that were available in various products made it like free advertising.  So I don't think d20 publishers have anything to worry about with PCGen, but I just have no interest anymore in giving it a 3rd try._


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## Knightcrawler (Aug 25, 2002)

I thank you for your opinion.  I am sorry that you feel that way about using it again.  I do agree that the GUI needs some work and that the learning curve on it is a bit high.

After we get OGL/D20 issues taken care of one of the first projects, hopefully, is going to be a file editor to make it easier to create custom files in PCGen.  Right now you have to be a bit more into programming to create your own files.  But it is getting easier.  The documentation is much better than it used to be.

As to all the releases and changes.  Yes they can cause some of your characters to stop working.  PCGen is still somewhat in its beta phase.  We just had our first "official release", version 3.0.0.   There is now a file converter built into PCGen now for older versions of the data files.  Hopefully recent improvements and changes will make it so that data from any version will work.

Again I thank you for your opinion.


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## Leopold (Aug 25, 2002)

i think he was going through the 'growing up' phase that PCGen went through earlier this year. The GUI was revamped from the ground up to look much smoother and run more streamlined than before, so that might have been part of the problem there. 

Is there a steep learning curve? Not really anymore. I revamped the docs  on the walkthrough and intro guide and mynex redid the code speak to make it flow and comprehend easier than it was before. 

trust me, if my mother can build a PC anyone can build a PC


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## Femerus the Gnecro (Aug 25, 2002)

When I first tried PCgen, I was really excited.  

"Look!  This'll let me use supplements I don't even own and give me options that the CG demo doesn't support!"

I was pumped.  

Five minutes after starting to use it, I gave up and deleted it.  

Several times after that I tried to get into it again, and never succeeded.  

Until recently.  

Ya see, I use Openrpg.  Someone on these boards mentioned that PCgen had an openrpg sheet export function, and I thought I might try it out.  I discovered 2 things.

1.  PCgen, while still being horribly difficult to learn, is really quite a nice piece of software.  *Especially* in comparison with Etools (IMO of course).  

2.  The Openrpg sheet template kinda bit.

Ironically, I'd already gotten so enmeshed into PCgen (finally learned how to use it, thanks to ppl on these boards) that I decided to do something about #2 rather than just complain about it.  

I wrote another template.  

NOW PCgen officially rocks.  Not only can I enter more or less any character I want, I can export it to OpenRPG with fully dynamic button functionality, etc.  It's lovely.  

So that's my opinion.  PCgen rocks.  It just takes some getting used to.

-F


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## Glyfair (Aug 25, 2002)

Let me say that this will sound negative.  My general opinion is sort of like the typical comments made about the U.S. political system.  "It's the worst one except for all the others."

I'll start with some positives, just to balance out my negatives.  I use this exclusively.  I haven't picked up E-Tools yet (loss of my job has left me with no excess money).  I probably won't use it even though I will almost certainly prefer the interface.  

I've decided that when I start picking up d20 supplements again that I won't be buying any that do not have PCGen support (at least any with character generation related information).  If I can't create a character using that products rules with PCGen and my players can't, I have little reason to consider adding those rules to my games.

Now the negatives:

1)  I've sat down and created a series of .lst files for my campaign.  A week later it wouldn't work.  If fixed it for the changes, a month later my campaign again wouldn't work.  I don't have time to constantly update my files, I'm supposed to be using that time for my campaign.

Add to that the fact that for a long period of time the changes weren't in the documentation, it made it impossible to keep your files up-to-date without living on the PCGen Yahoo group.

2)  It's written by programmers for programmers.  Many changes in the program seem to be suggested by someone in the group, and they stick.  My casual players look at and say "what were they thinking?"  The number one issue that came to mind was when the decided to change the filters from something easy to figure out to a hard-to-find, arcane system that no one in my group liked or ever used.

Another related issue was the change to Java.  A program that worked well on my computer suddenly went to a program that takes forever to load on my computer.  Even the recent improvements in this area have cut it from about 5 minutes to about 4 minutes.

Sometime in the future they are planning on going to xml.  Great, that means the files will be broken again.  I'm at least hoping this will at least solve the slowness issue.

3)  This isn't directly a program issue, but a number of PCGen supporters have left a bad taste in my mouth.  I'm not talking about the key members (Mynex & "Merton Monk" come to mind as key members).  However, a number of the supporters made inflammatory comments about how PCGen was the only character generation software for D&D & d20 and how MasterTools (later E-Tools) was going to suck.  All this before it was anywhere near release.  

I'm also not talking about an occasional comment here and there.  I'm talking about people who had to post to every single conversation about Character Generation programs and voice these opinions.

That said, the Character Generation system I'm going to use in the futures will have the following features (whether it be PCGen, E-Tools or something else).

1)  Data for the supplements I'm going to use in my game:  If I have to sit down and create a character by hand or "fake" something to do it in the character generator, it loses value.  Missing a supplement or two isn't a problem, unless they are important ones to me I'll just not buy & use them.  Missing most of what I want to use is.

An exceptable substitute would be an easy to use interface that allows me to input the information.  I don't mind adding it in myself.  I do mind when doing so requires hacking files & multiple tries to stop the program from crashing with the new data.

PCGen could be the leader here if it gets WotC approval for the non-OGC material.  E-Tools will probably never reach this because it will always be behind the curve given WotC production schedule and because it likely won't have sufficient support for 3rd party publishers.

2)  A clean, easy to use interface:  I want to put a new player at my computer, have them open the program and be able to create a character in a short period of time.  I want them to be making decisions about which feats, skills and equipment to take.  I don't want them trying to figure out how to choose an alignment, how to figure out which feats they are allowed to take or have to figure out whether they have to look for "Sword, Long" "Long Sword" or "Weapon (generic, customize)".

E-Tools will likely have the edge here.  PCGen has been making strides in this area.  However, they are still behind the curve, even compared to the Mastertools Demo, IMO.

3)  A smooth running program:  If the program takes forever to load, it's not very useful.  If it takes forever to switch between screens, loading characters, etc. it's not very useful.  If the program crashes when loading a character because it's "out-of-date" it's just a piece of trash taking up space on my computer.

E-Tools again will likely have the edge here.  Most of this is because of PCGen's constant updating.  This allows them to support more products, however, it doesn't allow them sufficient testing time to catch these errors.

4)  Easy Customization:  I want to be able to easily input my campaigns prestige classes, feats, equipment, etc without having to manipulate data files directly.  E-Tools has a slight edge here right now.  From what I hear, it still has a major stumbling block

5)  Quick Updates to Data:  When I buy I product I want to use, I don't want to wait a year or more to use the program to create a character with it (see #1).  This is another one that Easy Customization would help deal with.  This one is up-in-the-air depending on how fast PCGen can get their data files up with their new approval system.  However, odds are strong in their favor given how slow product updates are going to have to be for E-Tools.

So, looking at my requirements, I'd say that a programmer who wanted to create a program for me to use should make sure that they have an interface that allows for me to easily update and edit the Data Files within the program or in a separate Data manipulation program.

Glyfair of Glamis


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## Knightcrawler (Aug 25, 2002)

> 1)  I've sat down and created a series of .lst files for my campaign.  A week later it wouldn't work.  If fixed it for the changes, a month later my campaign again wouldn't work.  I don't have time to constantly update my files, I'm supposed to be using that time for my campaign.
> 
> Add to that the fact that for a long period of time the changes weren't in the documentation, it made it impossible to keep your files up-to-date without living on the PCGen Yahoo group.



Most of the time all custom lst files will migrate without any problem.  I think you may have been caught between major changes in the code.  There is a converter for old custom files in PCGen now.


> 2)  It's written by programmers for programmers.  Many changes in the program seem to be suggested by someone in the group, and they stick.  My casual players look at and say "what were they thinking?"  The number one issue that came to mind was when the decided to change the filters from something easy to figure out to a hard-to-find, arcane system that no one in my group liked or ever used.[/B]



I have to agree somewhat with what you are saying here.  You have to understand though that PCGen was in beta form and was going through many changes.  The filter system could use a little tweaking to become more intuitive.  


> Another related issue was the change to Java.  A program that worked well on my computer suddenly went to a program that takes forever to load on my computer.  Even the recent improvements in this area have cut it from about 5 minutes to about 4 minutes.



I can't ebtirely comment on this, as long as I have been involved with PCGen it has been Java based.  I know the decision to use Java was made so that it would be cross-platform.  As for speed problems some of those can be fixed by upgrading to Java 1.4.


> 3)  This isn't directly a program issue, but a number of PCGen supporters have left a bad taste in my mouth.  I'm not talking about the key members (Mynex & "Merton Monk" come to mind as key members).  However, a number of the supporters made inflammatory comments about how PCGen was the only character generation software for D&D & d20 and how MasterTools (later E-Tools) was going to suck.  All this before it was anywhere near release.



I know this has happened.  PCGen has some very enthusiastic supporters who unfortunately do not take criticism well.  THe yahoo group went through a period where everyone was demanding the pulled files and no one was going back and reading the previous posts.  Everyone started getting a little touchy.  Fortunately things seemed to have calmed down and have become much more civil.

You have to understand a couple things though.  PCGen is Open Source and all work done on it is on an entirely voluntary basis.  People work on it in their spare time and most of us have RW jobs.  We do not get paid for our time, we do it because we want a Character Generator better than the ones that are out there.

One major project that is in the works is an interface that will allow the user to enter his own custom files, without having to go in and code them from scratch.  I agree that right now PCGen has a relatively him learning curve and that iin order to really create the things you want you have to have a little computer background.  We are moving towards changing this and making the GUI more user friendly.

I got involved with PCGen because not all the sources that I wanted were in it.  Thats how alot of the people now working on the project have gotten involved.  So if your really interested in making PCGen better I would say get involved.  Make regular visits to the Yahoo group (No you do not have to live there), work on the lst files for a source that you want included and make comments land suggestions as you have here.

I'm not going to say that PCGen is the best Character Generator out there.  We're going to have to let the dust settle on the OGL/D20 conversion and the talks with WotC.  Also we're going to have to see how E-Tools pans out.  So my advice is wait and be patient.  Hopefully in a month or two everything will be sorted and settled.

I you can't wait there is nothing I can say to you.  Its your decision as to what program your going to use.  But just remember PCGen is free and will always be free.

Hopefully I've answered at least some of your questions.


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## tburdett (Aug 26, 2002)

PCGen was very useful to me up to and including version 3.0.0.

Now that you can, apparently, no longer use the 'forbidden' lst files, the program is useless to me.

Before you rabidly attack me with claims that this is false, go to the plambert file site and grab the latest auto-build.  You will quickly learn that what I am saying is the truth.  The next public release will probably not allow the use of anything that is not SRD.

I hope I'm wrong.


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## Halma (Aug 26, 2002)

*PCGen*

Well My opinions for what is worth are positive (Sorry you guys out there that don't like it much).

First off its free!!!!!!! Yeah......!!! sue me (should I rephrase that?) I'm cheap. hehe

I have been using PCgen from day 2.2 or .4 ish....(I can't remember) I really liked the fact that you could use ALL source material and until recently count on the fact that all source material would be provided into the coding.  Playing a Monte Cook variant Sorcerer was never easier for me. 

Being able to create custom magic Items, and able to pump up my stats with just a click of the mouse is incredible.

I fully admit, now I am a Laptop Gamer. I use my laptop at the table with a box of Dice (it would be nice if you could put a nice, or nicer Die roller in), and a spread sheet up with my current hp's, AC, spells that I have cast on myself.  It is invaluable to me at this point.  No paper to lose, get torn in a bag of gaming supplies or forgotten at home, which really sucks.  Not to mention all that I have to carry now to the game table is my Laptop bag  (IBM T21, which opens up PCgen in less than 30 sec.) Much Lighter!!!!


Now I am certainly not against E-tools, anymore, or for that matter ever thought that I was,  after seeing the debut at GenCon, but again PCgen is FREE!!!!!  

I just learned recently that you are having some trouble with licensing problems, that I hope you guys are getting fixed.  I can only assume that you are getting things taken care of.

I really like to say thanks for all the hard work you guys put into this product.  Although I do agree that it does take some getting used to, but once you do .......


Thanks,

Halma ---- The Dead Barbarian


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## plodnik (Aug 26, 2002)

Maybe I'm just stupid, but I've never been able to get the thing to work.


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## Eosin the Red (Aug 26, 2002)

plodnik said:
			
		

> *Maybe I'm just stupid, but I've never been able to get the thing to work. *




Amen brother. I hope you ain't stoopid or there are two of us (well, more than that actually, only 1 of 5 in my group took the time to figure PCGen out). That boosts my self esteem some.  

Always liked the concept, but the execution threw me. I now stick to xl spread sheets - much easier to make them do what I want.

Good luck with the new versions and the OGL stuff.


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## Maggan (Aug 26, 2002)

*My opinion on PCGen*

Well, chalk up another negative. Sorry, it's not that I don't appreciate or recognize the time put into this, and the motivation and so on. But as a tool, I can't make PCGen work for me. 

Basically I don't understand the interaction model. And I believe this has very little to do with the GUI. A broken interaction model can't be saved by a GUI. It can be helped, but not saved. So a lot of work has to go into rethining the interaction, not only the GUI.

So, you might for example implement wizards, that walk you through the creation of a pc. I also think you would do well to limit the number  of options available at the fingertips of the user. Focus on presenting the most common things common gamers want to do, and put the rest of the stuff that the programmers want to use in an interaction layer below that.

For example, compare PCGen with Jamis Buck's NPC Generator. Not many options in NPC Generator, but it does its thing, and it does it well. And in an easy to understand kind of way.

Sure, it hasn't got all the options and customisation possibilities that PCGen has, but that doesn't really matter if I can use NPC Generator and not PCGen.

For a more coherent discussion about interaction and stuff that you all might find interesting, read "The inmates are running the asylum", by Alan Cooper (the guy who created VB). It's a good book, and I recommend it to anyone developing software. Actually, many rpg game designers should read it as well. 

Anyhow, good luck with future versions.

Cheers

Maggan

(note to all: most electronic tools I have seen have similar broken interaction models. They are basically to darn difficult to use. PCGen is not the only tool with this problem, but since this thread concerns PCGen, i sorta tried to focus on that)


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## Henry (Aug 26, 2002)

Let me do my part to offer a positive opinion as a "counterweight."  

My experiences have been mostly positive. With the exception of custom LST files in the past having been invalidated by new tags and the like, I have had a marvelous time over the past 9 months using characters from any supplement allowed in our games, easily plotting my characters' growth in-game, and creating customized equipment and spell lists for situations in the game. I got all this functionality for free, and have been able to participate (minorly) in its development through bug reports and suggestions.

In answer to your question - _almost_ unequivocally NO. PCGen does not allow you to make use of supplements you do not have. I say almost, because there still were a few cases of feats here and there where the game rules were still spelled out in the description by overzealous LST monkeys (Song and Silence coes to mind). By for the most part, a properly done LST file gave you the option to incorporate a prestige class, feat, or item on your character sheet without telling you what it did. Some people may have had a problem with a program telling you what prerequisites were needed for a Prestige class, but you still cannot utilize info from that class without knowing what those special abilities did. (I dare anyone to tell me what a monk's "diamond body" special ability does solely by looking in PCGen, or the specific mechanics of an acolyte of the skin's demonic skin properties.)

Now, I am in a quandry. I have seen no other Character generating programs that have been forced to remove random dice generation, and while I understand this is done for d20 compliance, it really puts a stumbling block in my enjoyment of the program. Sure, I can break out some random dice generator program, but it adds an extra level of complexity to what was a simple program. I'm still sucking it up, but if even more WotC-enforced strictures start piling up, I am going to lose enjoyment of this wonderful program quickly.

While I am at it, Knightcrawler do you know of any more dramatic losses of functionality that PCGen may have to incur to become d20 compliant?


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## Breakdaddy (Aug 26, 2002)

PCGen ROCKS. Its free, its feature complete, and its well-supported. I cant tell you the amount of programs I've dropped 50+ dollars on that havent gotten half the support that PCGen gets! The interface didnt take long for me to get used to and now it is my character gen of choice, with or without the WOTC extras. E-Tools has cool "instant-generator" features, but nothing beats PCGen for its completeness and support. Thanks a lot PCGen team, and please keep up the great work!


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## Knightcrawler (Aug 27, 2002)

I thank you all for your opinions both the good and the bad.  Really all I can say for most of your issues is be patient and wait.  Hopefully we'll get the OGL/D20 stamp of approval soon and then we can start getting those removed files back in the data files.  

To our supporters I say, Thank You.  To everyone else, wait for the dust to settle and then give PCGen another try before you totally write us off.


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## EarthsShadow (Aug 27, 2002)

*How about this...*

I will download PCGen in its newest version 3.1.0 and see how it works.  Then, I will post how I feel about it.  I tried it once when it was like 2.4.?? and I was totally and way confused, but since then things have changed and hopefully the program has also.  I'll post a reply soon and let you know.


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## myrdden (Aug 27, 2002)

Henry said:
			
		

> *
> I have seen no other Character generating programs that have been forced to remove random dice generation, and while I understand this is done for d20 compliance... *




I am curious.  Why would the random dice generation affect d20 compliance?

Myrdden


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## kingpaul (Aug 27, 2002)

myrdden said:
			
		

> *I am curious.  Why would the random dice generation affect d20 compliance?*



I believe, and IANAL, that it comes under this clause in the d20 System Guide


> "Interactive Game": means a piece of computer gaming software that is designed to accept inputs from human players or their agents, and use rules to resolve the success or failure of those inputs, and return some indication of the results of those inputs to the users.


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## D'karr (Aug 27, 2002)

And what success or failure is being described with random dice generation of Hit Points or for that matter Ability Scores?


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## Arnix (Aug 27, 2002)

I have to say that I like PCGen.  Of all the competition that I have tried, it is the best of them.  That said, it is also constantly changing.  Some changes are improvements, some changes are annoying.  Example:  Change in gui is good, removal of lst files for books I own is bad, but request by WoTC.  

More changes are coming.  

Currently, lst files are tedious to create.  Plans that I have heard/read are that PCGen is in the process of developing a xml version of the lst files.  This means that creation will be a little easier and importing data from other applications will be simpler (E-Tools has an XML export/import as do one or two others).  

There are also plans to create a lst file generator.  You add the classes and feats and ... and the application will generate the lst file for you.  No more having to open the lst file and type a bunch of extraneous and confusing tag info.  You will have a gui interface that you can enter fielded data.

Currently PCGen is not without flaws (is any non-trivial software?), but it is getting better.


Hope this helps,
Arnix (tm)


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## Arnix (Aug 27, 2002)

D'karr said:
			
		

> *And what success or failure is being described with random dice generation of Hit Points or for that matter Ability Scores? *




Unfortunatly yes.  I *believe* that they are in talks to see if simply adding a random dice roller would be allowable.  Not specificlly tying it to anything, but simply a dice roller.   Hope for the best.  until then download a random dice roller, or (Heaven Forbid) actually roll the dice on your desk in front of your monitor .  Thats what I do (roll the dice).


Arnix (tm)


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## kingpaul (Aug 27, 2002)

D'karr said:
			
		

> *And what success or failure is being described with random dice generation of Hit Points or for that matter Ability Scores? *



I think the logic in this piece is that higher is better than lower.  Hence an 18 is a success when compared to a 3.  But, as I said before, IANAL, nor am I an agent of WotC.


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## GWolf (Aug 27, 2002)

Pc Gen is my most used File on my Pc. I've been using it for a long time. Since about 2.2. 

It is beggining to lack however. The No Dice Rolling really annoys me. And now the removal of all the other books also bothers me.

Otherwise it if my favorite program.


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## Aloïsius (Aug 27, 2002)

Since I don't have E-tools nor the Twin Rose campaign suit, PCGEN is the best character generator I have access to, but...
I don't use it (I play with it, watch for its progress however). It's simply faster and simpler to use pen&paper. Why ?


1)The program, despite some recent minor improvment, is simply too slow on most computer, especialy the P100 32 MB available in my club. At home, I have a k6 300 with 128 MB, and it takes five second to just add a new level to a character. So that's at least one minute to just "say" "this character is a level 12 cleric". And with the new castrated version, you must add the time required to specify how many hit point you gain at each level (unless you choose the allways max hit point, there isn't even an "average setting")!

I remember the first version of PCGEN (before the 2.0.0), it was so much faster. And simpler, see below


2)The program is still more complex than necessary. 15 tabs ! That's 5 too much I think. The summary,ability and race tab should be one and the same (just remove prereq and source column, and use the label instead, and you will have the place needed). And I can't see the point of having a description + a misc + a note tabs !

When you lauch PCGEN, the first thing you see is the Source Material tab. Remove it ! For the first use, load the PHB only. And add, in each character tab a "setting" icone wich you can click on to access wich source you use for this tab.
Example : race tab, By default, only the PHB race are available.If you want something more exotic, or if you want to forbid such or such race, click on the setting icone, then select the source material you want to use , then select wich races you want to be available with a check box before each race, click on the OK button, and choose the race of your character. And of course, the next time you start PCGEN, these races will be available in the race tab. You can add a "save config" option in the file menu, so you can have various configurations available (the equivalent of the customize option in the source material tab, but far more intuitive, I think) 

The inventory and Equiping tab should be merged (There isn't a spell and a spellbook tab, isn't it ?). And an item should not be available under more than one category (magic.weapon. and weapon.magic.) : It's just confusing.

In the Skill tab, there is no need to have two column for the cost of a skill (in the right and the left part) and since there is a "total" column, there is no need for the "modifier" one.
In all tab, please allow the user to hide the column he doesn't use (by example the source column). The Cost column may be removed, if a color or font code was used.

Last but not least, since it still doesn't work perfectly, and since there is the possibility to print via PDF, why is there still a preview tab ? Remove it, I'm sure a single item in a menu, or a single icon in the toolbar (preview in browser) will be enough. If it can save some memory ressource and speed up the program, it will be better. I know you can hide the preview tab, but I still think it will be best to remove it. And the zip file will have some kb less too...


3)PCGEN still lack some important fonctions
It would be great, when you create a n level character to get the money for a character of n level (see the table in the DMG) : this would be a great option. And why, when you buy a familiar doesn't it appear in the ressource tab ? 

There is an obvious lack of communication between the tabs : equiping and inventory, ressource and inventory, spells and inventory (when you have more spells in your spellbook than the standard alotment for your level, these extra spell should have been bought. And BTW a spellbook has 100 page, and you need 2 pages per level of spells : it's another thing PCGEN does not know).

And I don't understand why PCGEN allow you to create monster, while it is so hard to use for creating NPC > I don't need as much detail for an NPC than for a PC, and PCGEN really lack a instant NPC generation tool.

In the skill tab, it will be great if perform did function the same way than speak langage, adding a new art each time you gain a new rank. The possibility to create a new knowledge/profession/craft as you need it (like you create a new magic item by customizing it) would be appreciable.

In the class tab, I would like to see a table, indicating for each level what class you choose. I don't know how PCGEN work for things like max skill and multiclassed character, but I do know that the order you progress in your different classes does affect the skills and feat you may choose.

So, when PCGEN will be faster, more intuitive, when it will be able to generate ability and hit point, when it will use the FR stuff I use, I will use it. Until this time, I play with it, download each new version and wait.

And NO I can't use PCGEN as a replacement for a book I don't have. I recently tried for the psiHB I had forgotten, and it was nearly useless (One of my gamer was able to find what was the prerequisite feat for the metamind, however, so she could take the feat without waiting that I retrieve my book).

And there is the last problem of PCGEN : you can't erase and rewrite a printed character sheet, like you can with a pencil-filled one  (Who print a new sheet each time he level up ?)


----------



## Maraxle (Aug 27, 2002)

Personally, I have avoided trying PCGen.  The main reason is that it is JAVA based.  In my mind that tells me that it will be slow, and probably ugly.  The second reason is that its home is on sourceforge.  In my mind that tells me that it will probably have a clunky, by-the-programmer-for-the-programmer interface.  It also tells me that I will have to search hard to find screenshots, if I can find them at all.

If anything I wrote is false, please let me know.  Those are my own personal biases, and if they can be disproved, I will consider giving the product a look.


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## jujutsunerd (Aug 27, 2002)

Maraxle said:
			
		

> *Personally, I have avoided trying PCGen.  The main reason is that it is JAVA based.  In my mind that tells me that it will be slow,*




If you have a semi-decent (i.e. no more than a year or two old) computer, it shouldn't feel all that slow. Certainly not lightning fast, but that has more to do with the way we've chosen to implement a few things than anything inherent to java.

*



			and probably ugly.
		
Click to expand...


*
That *is* a common complaint.  Again, nothing to do with java, but with the fact that, well, most of us developer-type persons just don't have much talent at graphical layout. 

I will say that I have certainly seen uglier applications, and that if one chooses the Kunststoff 'look & feel' (pcgen is skinnable, see the docs I've linked to below) I think it looks rather nice. But then, I *am* one of the developers, and thus probably shouldn't be trusted to give opinions on this. (Of *course* my baby is the prettiest in the world. 

*



			The second reason is that its home is on sourceforge.  In my mind that tells me that it will probably have a clunky, by-the-programmer-for-the-programmer interface.
		
Click to expand...


*
See above. 

*



			It also tells me that I will have to search hard to find screenshots, if I can find them at all.
		
Click to expand...


*
Hmm. I must admit I have no idea how to find the screenshots, but as I do know one link to them, here it is:

http://rpg.plambert.net/pcgen/doc/screenshots/

Or, to see them in the context of the manual they are part of, follow this link and click on the 'walkthrough':

http://rpg.plambert.net/pcgen/doc/Index.htm

*



			If anything I wrote is false, please let me know.  Those are my own personal biases, and if they can be disproved, I will consider giving the product a look.
		
Click to expand...


*
I don't know if I've disproved them, but I hope I've given you enough information to make up your mind.

/Jonas


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## Agamon (Aug 27, 2002)

I tried PCGen in one of it's earliest incarnations.  It scared me away.  I tried it again about a month ago, and it's great.  I use it for all the PCs and NPCs in my game.

It doesn't make me not want to buy books, as I only use the books that I own.  On the other hand it doesn't actually make want to race out and buy books that are in PCGen, either.


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## jujutsunerd (Aug 27, 2002)

Aloïsius said:
			
		

> [SNIP many good comments]
> [/B]




I agree with quite a bit of what you say, do you mind if I quote this on our forum at yahoo?

There are a couple of people lobbying for a simpler/better gui, and I think they might be interested in reading what you say.

(As I said in an earlier post, I'm your basic stereotypical developer who started out on VT52's and thus keep talking about the Good Old Days of No Gui. Of course, I keep getting trumped by those who started out on lineprinters. Or those who started on punch cards. Etc. 

/Jonas


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## Aloïsius (Aug 28, 2002)

jujutsunerd said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I agree with quite a bit of what you say, do you mind if I quote this on our forum at yahoo?
> 
> ...



Quote me please ! My overinflated ego need it 

Seriously, if there is any chance this help those couple of lobbying people, go for it.



> *(As I said in an earlier post, I'm your basic stereotypical developer who started out on VT52's and thus keep talking about the Good Old Days of No Gui. Of course, I keep getting trumped by those who started out on lineprinters. Or those who started on punch cards. Etc.
> 
> /Jonas *




I'm not a programmer, but I remember the good old day, command line, autoexec.bat and config.sys, and the holy quest for the 640 k. Everything was simpler. (BTW, I have nothing against a ugly ANSI-text interface, as long as it works and is practical)


----------



## Rich34 (Aug 28, 2002)

Count me in as a happy 2.7.3 PCGen user.  It allows me to do what I want - create PCs/NPCs using a variety of sources.  When I game, I don't game with just the three core books (which makes both PCGen 3.0+ and ETools pretty useless to me).

In general, I use PCGen as a tool to create specific character types - so, I'm looking for implementation of material I have purchased elsewhere.  I tend to get my inspiration from the stuff I've already purchased.  I like to be able to read through the full descriptions of classes, or spells, or races, or whatever, before I decide to use it.  Once I decide I want to use it, I'm happy if PCGen has it in there already.  The sources in PCGen are too incomplete for me to use without having the full material from elsewhere.  To be honest, PCGen has not affected my purchasing habits - I have neither sought out nor avoided material because it was in PCGen.


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## jmettraux (Aug 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Aloisius_
> (BTW, I have nothing against a ugly ANSI-text interface, as long as it works and is practical)



Text interface ? Give a try to dgsh

Bonne chance !



(PCGen is great too!)


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## WizarDru (Aug 28, 2002)

Allow me to contribute my US $.02. 

I've followed PCgen for quite a long time.  It has gone through many changes, and my opinion of it has changed with it.

To wit:  prior to a couple of months ago, I found PCgen ugly, highly unituitive, slow and bug-ridden.

Today, I find PCgen less ugly, mildly unintuitive and well, slow.

Now, this may sound like a negative review.  It is not.  Allow me to go into greater detail.

First off, PCgen's flexibility and scope are impressive, and always have been.  The widespread support that PCgen now enjoys amidst d20 publishers is both impressive and heartening.  Many features have been added that make it a very valuable tool for me, as a DM.  Some of my players have adopted it for their own use, based on my announcing that I was using it.

What does PCgen do well?  Character creation has finally become easier to do with PCgen than with a custom Excel spreadsheet.  While it's GUI is still cluttered and somewhat counter-intuitive, it's better than it was, and shows signs of continual improvement.  PCgen is a very powerful application that truly allows you to design very odd combinations of characters, allowing a DM to override all the basic options to create an 'illegal' character, rules-wise, and create custom items.  

What does PCgen do poorly?  Many options are poorly or not documented at all.  For example, many options require terminating the program and restarting it for changes to take effect.  This is mentioned nowhere in the program, and a simple pop-up could save an hour's frustration.  Many options don't work in the same way as similar features, and the only way to discover this is by trial-and-error.  Most likely as the result of so many different team members, there is no GUI design standard, and this leads to a confusing interface.  Creating a new magic weapon was almost enough to cause me to delete the program, when I attempted to create a +2 halberd for a character.  I eventually sussed it out (it involved shutting down the program and restarting), but it should have been much easier than it was.  Other problems are ones that will continue, thanks to WOTC's strict enforcement of the OGL...specifically that many incomplete LST files will never be completed, except perhaps as black market materials.  This will hopefully change...but given it's been almost three years, and nearly half of the three core rulebooks remains unreleased to the SRD officially, this remains dubious.  I really had wanted the Axiomatic template from Manual of the Planes, for example.

And let's be clear....it's SLOW.  I mean, SLLLOOOOOWWW.  Java 1.4 changes this not one jot.  Is it faster than it once was?  Perhaps.  But it's still mind-numbingly slow in spots.  It's an acceptable situation, but I sure hope that there are a lot of Mac and Linux users taking advantage of this program to make it worth the performance cost.  A major disadvantage, given that I like to run things on my laptop, and I CAN run eTools, but PCgen is far, far too slow to be usable there.

The worst thing about PCgen?  It's FAQ, or the lack thereof.  Perhaps this has changed, but when I went to sourceforge and followed the link to the FAQ (after having spent a half-hour knocking my head against a wall), and then read a irritating message that mockingly declared that PCgen *didn't need* a FAQ...well, if I'd found the author of said message, *I would have taken him behind the woodshed for a beating.*  Maybe someone thought it was cute, but it was bad form, at best.  The people most likely to need a FAQ or the folks most likely to not want to read such tripe.

How does PCgen stack against it's competition?  Well, I consider it to have two major competitors: Homebrew Excel sheets and eTools.  LonePaladin's sheet is a very popular one amongst my players, and before he stopped updating it, was our campaign standard.  It has a clean, intuitive interface, using clever advantage of color and design, good printing options, and it worked really well for the core materials.  In many ways, I still consider it superior to PCgen.  What it lacks, though, are options.  It is unsupported, and doesn't cover anything outside the core rulebooks.  It doesn't have a lot of flexibility, which is badly needed at 16th level, far more than at 6th.

And what of the dreaded eTools, once consider to be the frontrunner of the chargen apps, that would lay waste to all in it's path?  Well, it's OK.  Given the proliferation of DBAs and amateur Access programmers, it's as easily modified as PCgen is, perhaps easier.  It has a cleaner interface...but it isn't always as intuitive as you'd expect it to be.  Granted, the chargen program that came with the PHB was much spiffier, but I was expecting them to build on that, not just cobble together a bunch of screens from FoxPro.  One place eTools really disappoints is in performance...it's just not as much of a speed improvement over PCgen as I expected.  Some parts of eTools are fantastic, and others are very weak.  This was Fluid/WOTC's category to win, and they appear to have 'phoned it in', so to speak.  The lack of things such as templates, and poor support so far are baffling and irritating.  In general, I consider it a worthy rival to PCgen, neither conquered nor conqueror.


Ultimately, I think that PCgen is a worthy DM prep tool, and an excellent chargen tool.  I still have my LST files since before Gencon, so it's worth using, for me.  Without that functionality, eTools would probably win out slightly, but with better support and features supported that eTools apparently forgot about, PCgen isn't getting deleted off my machine anytime soon.

Hope that helps.


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## Knightcrawler (Aug 28, 2002)

*More Information*

For those of you that are interested in finding out more information about why PCGen is trying to become OGL/D20 complient, what publishers opinions about PCGen are and general information about OGL/D20 licensing issues you can check out the thread in the Publishers Forum labeled "Publishers Opinion On PCGen".  Sorry I couldn't put a link to it but I'm on somebodies Mac and can't figure out how to copy the link.  #!@#@ damn Apple.

It is long thread (5 pages) but I strongly urge you to read through the entire thing before forming any opinions.


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## Knightcrawler (Aug 28, 2002)

*More Information*

(Deleted)

Damn Double Post!


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## Henry (Aug 28, 2002)

I'm sorry if this message is off-topic, but I have to ask something. Do I really have that fast of a computer?

More than once I have heard the complaint with PCGen that it takes several seconds just to see the results of one button press. I run this program on a Pentium II 233, with a 4MB AGP card, and 128 MB RAM, running Java 1.4 SRE. I take, at most, one-half to one second with one button press, whether this is to increase one character level, to add one piece of equipment, or to change an ability score. I am baffled by these interminable wait states people speak of. 

One other thing: Dru, I am curious as to how you added that +2 halberd. I've never had the experience of restarting the program after creating a custom item.


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## Knightcrawler (Aug 29, 2002)

Not off topic.  We've actually been trying to test PCGen on various machines to see the slowest thing that it would run on.  One of the important things is your use of Java 1.4 it definitely improves speed.  So far the slowest system that I can remember is a Pentium 75.

For those of you how have installed Java 1.4 make sure you uninstall Java 1.3.1 first.  When the new one installs it does not replace the old one.  I did this when I updated my Java and couldn't figure out why I saw no speed increase.  <grins>


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## Femerus the Gnecro (Aug 29, 2002)

Knightcrawler said:
			
		

> *Not off topic.  We've actually been trying to test PCGen on various machines to see the slowest thing that it would run on.  One of the important things is your use of Java 1.4 it definitely improves speed.  So far the slowest system that I can remember is a Pentium 75.*




Here's a slower version.  Actually my VERY first foray into the program.

Macintosh 7300 200mhz upgraded to a G3 500mhz.

Running Virtual PC 3.

Under Windows 98 (emulated).

The VERY first version of PCgen if I remember correctly.

It was AWFUL! 

Incidentally, it's how I started running the Character Generator Demo too, though it ran significantly better.  

-F


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## TheAuldGrump (Aug 29, 2002)

*A positive review*

Well, I've been using PCGen for quite some time. I have found it very useful indeed, if more than a bit slow. (Faster now than it was however.)
     I use it in points based mode to create NPCs, and in random mode to test out some character ideas for various d20 settings.
     The only downer was the large quantity of stuff removed to make it OGL compliant. I wish PCGen the best of luck on becoming compliant, but meanwhile I am keeping a copy of an older version 'just in case'.
     I have tried E-Tools, and well, I really did not like it, PCGen was more powerful 6 months ago than E-Tools is now. The only advantage that I could find for E-Tools was speed. Hopefully there is room for both programs to exist and that both programs will get the attention that they need to improve.

The Auld Grump


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## reiella (Aug 29, 2002)

Complaint: Speed.

Interestingly enough, it got alot better with 3.0 with most of the other wizard products removed from the lst files.

For the module loader, have a progress bar or something, nothing quite as frustrating as a program Not Responding with no progress while loading.

The new General/Overview tab is a bit confusing (and redundant), it does make a good start for having an easier to use interface however.

Make it possible to add N levels of a class at a time (downside, you have to add N levels before adding an item that boosts int so it's bonus is effective then add the rest of the levels).

On skills, at least as an option have it so you consider all skills that are a class skill to one of your classes (but not exclusive) to be 'class skills'  (like it says on phb 56 for multiclass characters).

Add an 'ok' button to the OGL license display as well.

As said before, should really compress Description, Misc, and Notes into one tab.  Preview should be a button for Preview in Browser (since the internal preview still doesn't work/causes much system drag).

Inventory/Equipping/Resources are arguably all the same and collapsable into just Resources (although as I understand the Equipping tab is an attempt at a new 'easier' to use equipment usage, hence why it can say different things than the inventory location slots).  Resources also seems to be more so companions and the like (and is lacking PsiCrystal).

Domains/Spells are easy enough to collapse into one (and only None really actually needs the full Domain listing or even close to that much space in its window).

Also of note, is that it still holds some IP (That isn't SRD) - Githzerai, Githyanki were not freed in the SRD draft.  (Nor for that matter was Illithid).

In all I like pcgen, the interface ... is frustrating (took me a while to figure out the new filters and item creation), and slow.


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## Mynex (Aug 29, 2002)

reiella said:
			
		

> *Complaint: Speed.
> 
> Interestingly enough, it got alot better with 3.0 with most of the other wizard products removed from the lst files.
> 
> ...




Ah, thanks for the suggestions.  I actually talked with Bryan McRoberts (Merton Monk) tonight about combing/getting rid of some of the extra tabs, so expect some changes on that front sometime soon (no time frame, obviously OGL/D20 comes 1st)...

And for the record, we are using the Players Handbook data files as our test bed for WotC approval.  If those data files pass muster, then we will be using them as the basis to get the rest of the WotC material in line in short order... so one step at a time, and little ones now... we've made some huge leaps in the last 2 weeks and it does show, but we still have a few more steps to go yet!


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## WizarDru (Aug 29, 2002)

Henry said:
			
		

> *I am baffled by these interminable wait states people speak of.
> 
> One other thing: Dru, I am curious as to how you added that +2 halberd. I've never had the experience of restarting the program after creating a custom item. *




Your machine is actually fairly slow by comparison to the ones I run it on, which shows that it doesn't scale that well, and that you probably have more patience than I do.   I don't wait several seconds for the result of a button press, to be sure.  Any interaction with the file system is very slow on my 1.2Ghz machine, as are several functions.  Compared to how it used to run, it IS faster.  It's just not as fast as I'd like.


As for the Halberd, we eventually found the option under the Settings Menu, Equipment, AutoCreation for +1 to +5 weapons, where it created a +1 through +5 version of every weapon.  But to have them actually appear in the list, you needed to stop PCgen and restart it.


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## WizarDru (Aug 29, 2002)

Femerus the Gnecro said:
			
		

> *Macintosh 7300 200mhz upgraded to a G3 500mhz.
> 
> Running Virtual PC 3.
> 
> Under Windows 98 (emulated).*




Was this before they went to Java?  Have you used it on a Mac since they did?


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## Henry (Aug 29, 2002)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> *As for the Halberd, we eventually found the option under the Settings Menu, Equipment, AutoCreation for +1 to +5 weapons, where it created a +1 through +5 version of every weapon.  But to have them actually appear in the list, you needed to stop PCgen and restart it. *




_snaps fingers_ A ha! Gotcha. Just for any future reference, going back to the first screen and unloading and reloading the data files will also do it. For that matter, you can even go in, change a LST file, and unload and reload that product, and the change will be reflected. I've played with the thing a _lot_. Now if you'll excuse me, Gollum will go put down his precious and get some sun now.


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## WizarDru (Aug 29, 2002)

Henry said:
			
		

> *
> 
> snaps fingers A ha! Gotcha. Just for any future reference, going back to the first screen and unloading and reloading the data files will also do it. For that matter, you can even go in, change a LST file, and unload and reload that product, and the change will be reflected. I've played with the thing a lot. Now if you'll excuse me, Gollum will go put down his precious and get some sun now.  *




Ah!  Good to know.   My group is slowly converting to PCgen...with the exception of my Excel programming players, who would rather make a custom sheet for their primary characters.  The breadth of coverage PCgen offers, coupled with it's continual update schedule and level of detail are winning friends.  And I will vouch for how dramatically the program has improved in just the last three months alone.


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## Leopold (Aug 29, 2002)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Ah!  Good to know.   My group is slowly converting to PCgen...with the exception of my Excel programming players, who would rather make a custom sheet for their primary characters.  The breadth of coverage PCgen offers, coupled with it's continual update schedule and level of detail are winning friends.  And I will vouch for how dramatically the program has improved in just the last three months alone. *






or if you want an even easier way to do this just simply highlight the item, right click on the item and select CUSTOMIZE, then select Masterwork, then select the bonus for it. this allows you to add all those extra nice features and equipment modifiers to the items in question.

Didn't know if you knew this or not, just posting just in case!


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## WizarDru (Aug 29, 2002)

Leopold said:
			
		

> *or if you want an even easier way to do this just simply highlight the item, right click on the item and select CUSTOMIZE, then select Masterwork, then select the bonus for it. this allows you to add all those extra nice features and equipment modifiers to the items in question.
> 
> Didn't know if you knew this or not, just posting just in case!  *




Hmm.  I tried that originally, but I couldn't seem to make it work quite right.  That was my problem, originally...I could customize the halberd, but I couldn't find a way to give it the initial enhancement bonus, and it was driving me nuts.  I may have neglected to click 'masterwork' since I assumed I wanted a +2 item, not necessarily a masterwork.  I realize all enchanted weapons are masterwork at their base, but I don't think I thought to create it that way.  

I should point out I'm currently using 3.0.  I'm hesitant to go to 3.1, without finding out if my LST files will continue to function.  (i.e. no OGL-compliance enforcement function has been added).

Thanks,

Dru.


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## Leopold (Aug 29, 2002)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Hmm.  I tried that originally, but I couldn't seem to make it work quite right.  That was my problem, originally...I could customize the halberd, but I couldn't find a way to give it the initial enhancement bonus, and it was driving me nuts.  I may have neglected to click 'masterwork' since I assumed I wanted a +2 item, not necessarily a masterwork.  I realize all enchanted weapons are masterwork at their base, but I don't think I thought to create it that way.
> 
> ...




Dru,
     Everytime you build a custom item you must get it either the masterwork, admantium, mithral, darkwood, etc properties first for the base. Once that is given you must give it a +X and then you can tack on all the special abilities.

As for 3.1.0, the files will work with the new lst converter, just copy your sources over to the new directory, under tools use the LST CONVERTER utility and select the names of the sources you wish to convert. You can use the ALL button to automatically do this and convert the files over but some may remain unchanged with the UNKNOWN coming up on the left hand side of the menus. Just change the properties of the lst to file to correspond to the type of file (SPELL, SKILL, etc.)


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## wheeljack (Aug 29, 2002)

*I want to like PCGen....*

PCGen is the most competent character generator I have used
to date (Others I have tried included Campaign Suite, RPM, and DM Familiar... still waiting on my copy of E-tools)
First the positives
1)Its FREE... this is just great and I appreciate all the volunteer time people put into it
2)Alot of content already available (not as mcuh in newer editions) but its still alot more than I get with other programs... and I don't have to pay for it
3)I love the ton of export options (especially pdf) , just makes it super easy to get the characters out to other players and the GM

However I have some real issues with it
1)Speed=> I am running on p3-900, 256mb of ram and win2k
using SRE1.4 and it is still just plain old slow, I am only loading SRD stuff (PHB&DMG) and not a bunch of suppliments, I am at a loss of what to do

2)Some stuff is just blatantly wrong as far as I can tell, I rolled up a halfling from a group I GM and his skills where just way off, unless I am missing something (ex. his misc. modifier for Balance was at -3... -1 from his armor where the other -2 was coming from I have no idea)... Its a possiblity I am just dumb, but I doubt it

3)Difficult to add your own custom stuff/lst files, I know the development team is working on this, but I don't want to have to spend hours learning how to create a lst file for 'Arms & Armor' along with taking the time to enter things in

So once these issues can be addressed it would probably become a mainstay on my laptop as a tool to use for playing and GMing, until then I will keep my fingers crossed

As an afterthought the interface is a mixed bag, I find some of the stuff really easy to use, but the layout needs some work however IMO.


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## merton_monk (Aug 29, 2002)

Leopold said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Dru,
> Everytime you build a custom item you must get it either the masterwork, admantium, mithral, darkwood, etc properties first for the base. Once that is given you must give it a +X and then you can tack on all the special abilities.
> ...




There's a bug with the Lst Converter in 3.1.0, so don't use it.  It's been corrected for our next release.  Weve thought about making it so if you add +2 to an item, it automatically adds Masterwork in... we've just been a bit pre-occupied lately.


----------



## merton_monk (Aug 29, 2002)

*Re: I want to like PCGen....*



			
				wheeljack said:
			
		

> *PCGen is the most competent character generator I have used
> to date (Others I have tried included Campaign Suite, RPM, and DM Familiar... still waiting on my copy of E-tools)
> First the positives
> 1)Its FREE... this is just great and I appreciate all the volunteer time people put into it
> ...



*

Wow - you have a much better machine than I do!  What exactly is slow?  Are there specific things, or do you just mean in general?  We keep optimizing the code, but looking at specific places where you notice slowness is also helpful.





			2)Some stuff is just blatantly wrong as far as I can tell, I rolled up a halfling from a group I GM and his skills where just way off, unless I am missing something (ex. his misc. modifier for Balance was at -3... -1 from his armor where the other -2 was coming from I have no idea)... Its a possiblity I am just dumb, but I doubt it
		
Click to expand...



Hm - I have a bachelor's in math, so the math bit is important to me.   Are you sure you weren't encumbered?  Upload your pcg file to our yahoo board (if you go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen there's a File page and then you can go to "Needs Help With" and upload your pcg file there.  Let us know and we can look at it and determine what's going on)





			3)Difficult to add your own custom stuff/lst files, I know the development team is working on this, but I don't want to have to spend hours learning how to create a lst file for 'Arms & Armor' along with taking the time to enter things in
		
Click to expand...



We're moving to xml in the near future which will facilitate our creating a nice editor which will completely hide the syntax of the data files.  It'll simply present you with a form where you can edit or add things.  This is finally getting to the top of our priority list. 





			So once these issues can be addressed it would probably become a mainstay on my laptop as a tool to use for playing and GMing, until then I will keep my fingers crossed

As an afterthought the interface is a mixed bag, I find some of the stuff really easy to use, but the layout needs some work however IMO.
		
Click to expand...


*
Thanks for your comments!  The interface has some more change to go through, but it seems that most people agree it's improved a great deal in the last few months.  We're always open to suggestions!


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## Breakdaddy (Aug 29, 2002)

I hope you cats at PCGen get permission to put the new Everquest RPG into PCGen, I played my first game of it this weekend with just the PHB and the stuff at www.eqrpg.com and it truly kicks arse!


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## Radiating Gnome (Aug 29, 2002)

*Thumbs Up*

Now that' I've had my copy of E-tools for a couple of days, I can say one thing with a lot more confidence.  I love PC-Gen.

I've been a PCGen user since the early 2.something days.  I liked it when I first got it, have had learning curves now and then when changes went through, but by and large I've had very little trouble with it.

When the 3.0 edition came out, with it's limited data set and a few other changes, I actually drifted a bit and decided to order the E-tools and see what they were like.  And, while there are things that I like about the e-tools, I'm going to be downloading the latest version of PCgen and probably keeping my characters on that instead of the E-tools.  

Not that there's a lot that's wrong with the e-tools.  On the contrary, they're a pretty slick package, but they are limited by their limited dataset, I don't have the time to put in all of the supplement books, and other users are only getting started.  E-tools still have a lot of growing to do.

-rg


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## Hardhead (Aug 29, 2002)

*PCGen kicks arse*

PCGen kicks ass.  Though it is hard to learn, once you get the hang of it, it lets me make all my characters super-fast.  As for speed issues, yes, it runs poorly on older computers.  *shrug*  On the other hand, if it wasn't Java-based, I wouldn't use it anyway, since I own Macs.  

Since I started using it, I've found it indespensible in creating NPCs, especially high-level ones.  I can make a 18th level Fighter/Cleric/Knight of the Chord (BoEM2) in about ten minutes, INCLUDING purchasing gear, where it normally takes me 45 minutes or more for that kind of thing.  Indeed, I've gotten to the point that I don't buy books unless they're supported by PCGen.

The exclusion of non-SRD stuff makes it much less useful, unfortunately.  I think WotC is just doing it because PCGen is soooo much more functional thatn E-tools.  Frankly, I think they're being asses by holding fan-created stuff to the OGL, when before they said it was OK for fans to do whatever they wanted (provided they didn't use WotC characters, logos, trademarks, and didn't make any money off of it).

I remember TSR being similarly mean to their fans, and look what happened as a result.  It's just another symptom of the coporate culture that seems to have taken over WotC in the last year or two, though.  *sigh*

Anyway, like I said, I don't see why the PCGen folks are being singled out over the SRD thing, while millions of other fan-created stuff (including a few other character generators) isn't.  Well, actually, I do.  It's because PCGen threatens E-tools.  Oh well.  For my part, I offer my undying support for PCGen.  It really is a great program.

Kudos to all the D&D fan/programers that have put so much time into it.


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## Femerus the Gnecro (Aug 29, 2002)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Was this before they went to Java?  Have you used it on a Mac since they did? *




Oh... this was WAY before OSX, and thus way before native Java based applications.

I haven't had a chance to try it on a Mac since then.  Unfortunately, I haven't enough money to buy a new mac.  

-F


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## Leopold (Aug 29, 2002)

Breakdaddy said:
			
		

> *I hope you cats at PCGen get permission to put the new Everquest RPG into PCGen, I played my first game of it this weekend with just the PHB and the stuff at www.eqrpg.com and it truly kicks arse! *





working on that with SSS..i think dialogue has begun on that.


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## zukie51262 (Aug 29, 2002)

*PCGEN ROCKS*

In a nut shell this is the most detailed D&D program I have ever seen regarding PC, Monsters or whatever, and I have been playing since 1st eddition, only used the 2nd eddition core rules once did'nt like it deleted it (a waste of about 30 bucks).

As far was I am concerened working with the list files is no more then working with your data base, just have to use the right tags in the right place to get the program data where ya want it.

As some one said earlier he wanted this program or hinted around this point to replace books.  HUH???????  First Im a DM and player and if one of my players during game time told me of a new spell he found in a program and put it on his character sheet but didnt have the book or rather source material to back this up he doesnt have the spell.  Im sorry but anyone can but a spell on a charater sheet.  

Other then that this program rocks and GREAT JOB TO ALL.


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## Nine Hands (Aug 29, 2002)

I LOVE PCGen.  It provides enough flexibility with enough data files.  The one problem I have with E-tools is the current lack of this flexibility.  

PCGen does exactly what I need it to do.  The LST files are simple enough for me to work with and if I have a problem a competent LST monkey is only an e-mail away.

The interface has gotten better and still needs some work.  Personally, I don't like the interface of E-tools much better


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## DMFTodd (Aug 29, 2002)

> Others I have tried included ...and DM Familiar




DM's Familiar is not a character generator - it's a DM's tool to assist in running and organizing his game. Never been a character generator, never will be. 

In fact, the most recent version now supports the importing of character stat blocks from other programs (I support E:Tools and PCGen right now).


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## wheeljack (Aug 30, 2002)

DMFTodd said:
			
		

> *
> 
> DM's Familiar is not a character generator - it's a DM's tool to assist in running and organizing his game. Never been a character generator, never will be.
> 
> In fact, the most recent version now supports the importing of character stat blocks from other programs (I support E:Tools and PCGen right now). *




I wasn't trying to knock DM's Familiar, and I know it doesn't claim to be a character generator, however you can add your character to the application, which is kinda like generating it.... err sorta... ok no it isn't your just keying it in off a character sheet

I do like the combat board, its my favorite feature of the program, I just haven't decided if I want to drop the cash for it.  If it was like half the price it is now I wouldn't think twice but for some reason I keep thinking I could program a similiar app myself, of course who has the time... bleah


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## wheeljack (Aug 30, 2002)

*Re: Re: I want to like PCGen....*



			
				merton_monk said:
			
		

> *
> Wow - you have a much better machine than I do!  What exactly is slow?  Are there specific things, or do you just mean in general?  We keep optimizing the code, but looking at specific places where you notice slowness is also helpful.
> *



Mostly when I load multiple characters, for example I want to load the whole party (7 characters) so maybe I can utilize the 'Gm Screen'.  Editing hp's on the screen becomes near impossible because it takes literally minutes to switch between each character... I am afraid to even start adding NPC's as well

Maybe I should export the characters at that point and use a different app for tracking Hitpoints and what not




> *
> Hm - I have a bachelor's in math, so the math bit is important to me.   Are you sure you weren't encumbered?  Upload your pcg file to our yahoo board (if you go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen there's a File page and then you can go to "Needs Help With" and upload your pcg file there.  Let us know and we can look at it and determine what's going on)
> *




This might be difficult since it was a ghostwise halfling made in 2.7.3  I think... The newer versions of course can't have FRCS stuff in it.  I just pulled up the sheet in 2.7.3 and the load is medium... Bingo that would explain the skills, he had light written on his character sheet, then I figured out it was cus I had him carrying his Repeating Xbow, which he left in a weapon cache...voila... SO to sum it up I am an idiot and PC Gen was right


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## CRGreathouse (Aug 30, 2002)

*Re: I want to like PCGen....*



			
				wheeljack said:
			
		

> *PCGen is the most competent character generator I have used
> to date (Others I have tried included Campaign Suite, RPM, and DM Familiar... still waiting on my copy of E-tools)*




Would you mind posting a comparison between PC Gen and Campaign Suite (here or elsewhere)?  I'm very curious...


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## wheeljack (Aug 30, 2002)

*Re: Re: I want to like PCGen....*



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Would you mind posting a comparison between PC Gen and Campaign Suite (here or elsewhere)?  I'm very curious... *



Ok I can try my best

I will try to break this out by categories that are important to me, which may not be important to someone else but hey its my illogical opinion that you requested ( I think?).. Keep in mind this is only from using the DEMO version of Campaign Suite

Price : I don't think anyone would argue, PC Gen wins hads down here, for someone that spends all his money on d20 books this can be a very big factor.... that $30 for Campaign Suite can buy me another 3 Encyclopedia Arcanes

Ease of 'extensibility' : I will give Campaign Suite the nod here, I find it pretty darn easy to add a race, language, weapon, etc.

Community : I give the nod to PC Gen, this may be due to being somewhat of a programmer myself and I feel real enthusiasm behind the tool and support from the user community

Now as far as actually generating the Characters, I find that PC Gen is more accurate, and has more information (like where I can look up the detail of a certain feat or spell, support for psionics, and limits feats based on class as examples)... altho Campaign suite does have that nifty Character wizard, nce way to whip up random type NPCs

I guess the two biggest things that I liked about PC Gen over Campaign Suite was 
1)The price... Im a cheapskate
2)The shear amount of pre-entered/ community entered data.... ehhh Im lazy

For campaign suite you either have to enter it yourself your purchase add-ons.....I find that just like trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip

Now I totally understand that this could change, especially with PC Gen trying to become d20 or OGL or whateva it is compliant

Looking back over this I imagine you will find this totally useless
I find it exceedingly difficult to put my thoughts down in writing... its one of my many flaws


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## wheeljack (Aug 30, 2002)

*eeeep.....*

For some crazy reason I just ordered one of the left over GenCon CDs of Campaign Suite off the Twin Rose website

Impulse buy  , that and I want to give the full version a shot and see if it can help me keep my ENTIRE campaign organized.

One more thing thats nice about PC Gen, I can share the character files with everyone in my group and they can maintain them without having to purchase software... 

I still don't feel like I adequately backed up my statement before about PC Gen being the best character generator even tho I feel that way... I guess it just fits my style best.


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## Cardinal Aidan (Aug 30, 2002)

A caveat...these comments are based off of PcGen 2.6.7. I'm having java issues on my main box, so I haven't been able to try out 3.0.

My opinion? It'll be very useful someday, with a completely redesigned interface. Right now though, its too much trouble to be worth the effort. I dont really save much time over other methods of doing the same thing. Yes, it was sluggish on my box (P433 with 256megs) but that's a minor factor after useability.

I've been curious if anyones' thought about rewriting PcGen under the QT libraries. As of QT 3.0, you're free to use the libraries in open source projects for the Mac or Win32, and would effectively be just as cross-platform as things stand now. QT can also give you a much nicer interface...a sizeable chunk of eTools was written in it. Two of the players in my group do a lot of KDE/QT development, and we've discussed this before.

Think it might be time to head over to the sourceforge page....


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## Hardhead (Aug 30, 2002)

IMO, the great thing about PCGen is how user-configurable it is.  Do this:  try to enter Moneky Grip into E-Tools or any of a thousand other wierd feats.  PCGen can do it.  E-Tools can't.

As for the interface, it has a *steep* learning curve, but once you get used to it, it's easy to make a character fast.


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## WizarDru (Aug 30, 2002)

Hardhead said:
			
		

> *IMO, the great thing about PCGen is how user-configurable it is.  Do this:  try to enter Moneky Grip into E-Tools or any of a thousand other wierd feats.  PCGen can do it.  E-Tools can't.
> 
> As for the interface, it has a *steep* learning curve, but once you get used to it, it's easy to make a character fast. *




Well, since I can't do XML or LSTs, I really can't do it in either, nor can most folks.  Fact is, that's why we need the code-monkeys in the community...someone adding a splatbook to PCgen is no different than someone manually creating the MON files for Dragons of different sizes.


*[RANT]* On a side note: What on Oerth was Fluid thinking, only including one size category of Dragon in eTools?  I mean, of all the creatures to make sure you covered, wouldn't Dragons be the one?  The FREAKING GAME IS CALLED *DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS!*  It ain't Dungeons and Barghests, for crying out loud.  Yeesh.*[/RANT]*


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## Knightcrawler (Sep 2, 2002)

*Keeping it alive*

Bump

Just looking to keep the thread alove.  Keep your opinions and ideas coming.


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## GothMogh (Sep 2, 2002)

*The Good and Bad of PCGen*

PCGen: Good or Bad? A bit of both.. though maybe a bit more bad.

I have used PCGen in one of it's very early incarnations and dropped it.  Then I gave it another look around version 2.5 and became a bit more enthousiastic.  We have susequently then used 2.6 and 2.7 and now 3.0...

*Good:* 

*Free, no cost, gratis!
*Excellent support of material (just use the 2.7.3 lst files)
*Excellent tool for NPC generation with lots of special features.
*Resulting save files can be tweaked.

*Bad:* 

*DM Tools are next to useless... But hey, it's PCGen, not DM's Familiar.
*Too much of the material is buggy.   This is mainly an issue for PC's since for NPC's I don't mind if they show an error.
*Subsequent releases had/still have a lot of compatibility issues.  My group would create PC's in version x and then find they behave a bit buggy in version x+1.  As a solution they would recreate them and then find they have a feat less or more..
*Version 3.0: a real release?  Yes, it is a genuine good effort. No, I do not consider this a stable release.
*Gui? What gui?  Oh that?
**Noisy Messageboard* Come on guys face it: the board on yahoo is used to interface socially between the different team members... Yes, you regularly point out that there should be no flaming.  Yes, you regularly insist on freedom of speech.  Yes, you regularly ask to stay on topic.  But have a quick look at some of the posts (even by core members, i'm sorry to say) and it looks more like an exercise in stand up comedian jokes and one line posting/flaming.  A lot of good questions are left unanswered.  * Please moderate this board. *
*Slow, even on FAST machines. (As a matter of fact I removed 3.1.0 for this reason..)

Overall, I think PCGen is being strangled by it's feature richness.  After all this time it is still not stable.  I would suggest to avoid adding new material until a number of things have been hammered out.
* Focus on DnD material (yes I know this is arguable, but what do you want: a poor tool for everyone, or an excellent tool for some; this is not a request for flaming by the way )
* XML support (which would make it easier to edit lst files, and thus make that part less error prone)
* level based saving of a char, which makes rolling back one or more levels a lot easier and less error prone.
*slicker interface
*performance tuning

I can probably think of some more burnng issues, but those are formost on my mind.

Cheers,
GothMogh


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## Chacal (Sep 3, 2002)

First, I like the project and I really appreciate the work that's done by all pcgen team.

I've tried it at different stages of evolution, and I've seen lots of improvement (except a couple of things I'll point out later)

As anyone who tried pcgen, I can state that you can't use it in replacement for a book.
[EDIT] I just tried 3.1.1 so I edit my comments. By the way I don't see the release info for this on the boards, and wonder why the 3.1.0 has been closed. 
[/EDIT]

*What I like *: free,  customisation of data and exports, support.
-the custom equipment is really good (It took me some time to find it, because I wasn't used to rightclick in pcgen  )


*What I dislike* (mainly GUI, but possibly with some repercution on structures)

*1* The  summary tab lets you select a class, 
which prevents you from changing stats with pointbuy. 
[EDIT] Fixed by having the stats moved to summary tab. Good job ! The summary tab is finally user friendly and shows what's expected from a Character generator[/EDIT]

[ b]2[/b]Too many questions are asked (via the chooser dialog) upon levelling. This slows down the process of creating high level NPCs (or PCs).

*2.1*Some of the questions could be avoided:
For instance which spellcasting class do you want to increase when raising level in a PrC. In many cases, there's only one possible selection. 

 I would really like to have an option that will determine the chooser's behavior when only one selection is possible:
- Choose ( like it does actually: 2 clicks)
- Confirm  (the chooser preselect it and you just confirm)
- Skip ( the chooser dialog doesn't show up and the selection is done automatically)

(of course I'll choose the third option)



*2.2*Even when several options exist, you might want to select them later. For instance, fighter feats are tricky to choose
because you don't have spend the "normal feats" thus some feats which needs several prereq can't be selected via the chooser.

Of course you can cancel the chooser but it's still annoying. An option like:
-Delay unnecessary choices
could help here too.


*3* Another problem with the chooser upon levelling is the following:
If Spell Mastery is one of the granted feat to be selected (like for a Wiz 5) , the chooser generates a list of spellmastery(spell) for each known spell, then let only select one, regardless of int.
It should, at least work like in the feat tab.

I hope the above criticisms will help.

[EDIT] Points 2 and 3 still hold for 3.1.1[/EDIT]

Chacal


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## Chacal (Sep 4, 2002)

Bump !

cause Edit wouldn't have bumped 



Chacal


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## Hardhead (Sep 4, 2002)

*Yes!*

Wow.  I just downloaded 3.1.1.  The changes in the GUI are unbelievable.  Much more streamlined.  Trimed the number of tabs down to 9, and just generally a ton more intuitive.

Still, there's room for improvement.

(1)Too many classes and races in the sumary tab.  The Sumary tab should be kept clean and simple, so it should only show Base Classes and PC races be default.  You would still be able to select monster races and classes in their individual tabs, of course.  Also, those two should start out sorted by type as the default option, to make browsing more managable.

(2)Why does it not automatically roll you HP anymore?


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## Knightcrawler (Sep 5, 2002)

I've talked to them about the number of pop-ups.  In 3.1.1 it gets really ridiculous.  Hopefully we can severly curtail the use of pop-ups later on.

As to the removal of the hp roller.  All "interactive" features, i.e. any random rolls,  have been removed to be in complience with the OGL/D20 licenses.


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## jgbrowning (Sep 5, 2002)

Knightcrawler said:
			
		

> *One of the things that I do want to hear about is: Does PCGen make it so you don't have to buy the book?   That I know is a concern often voiced by publishers. *





Why are the publishers concerned with with a person's using PCgen not wanting to buy their books?


joe b.


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## Knightcrawler (Sep 5, 2002)

Easy one word, MONEY.  If you don't buy their books they don't get MONEY.


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## Chacal (Sep 5, 2002)

*Re: Re: Gamers Opinion of PCGen (No Rants)*



			
				jgbrowning said:
			
		

> *
> Why are the publishers concerned with with a person's using PCgen not wanting to buy their books?
> joe b. *




Because either:
- they didn't look at pcgen close enough to see that you can't do anything with just a name and a vague description,

or 

-they choose awful names for their feats/classes/races and only count on their cool books cover to sell 



Chacal


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