# $#!@ you Joss Whedon!



## Tiew (Jul 5, 2006)

So I just finished the third season of Angel on DVD last night and wouldn't you know it it was the 4th of July so Best Buy was closed and I couldn't get the 4th season to see what happens. I've been thinking of Wesly as a broken shell and Angel sinking into the water in that metal box all day at work. It's killing me. How could you people who were watching the series on TV stand to wait until the next year? Did it drive any of you to acts of violence? Man....


----------



## Ambrus (Jul 5, 2006)

Tiew said:
			
		

> Did it drive any of you to acts of violence?



I'll take the 5th on that one.

Gee... You have to wait a _whole_ day? My sympathy for you spilleth over.


----------



## WayneLigon (Jul 5, 2006)

Friends of mine say the same thing about _24_, _Veronica Mars_, and a couple other shows they'll only watch as DVD season sets.


----------



## Klaus (Jul 5, 2006)

Tiew said:
			
		

> So I just finished the third season of Angel on DVD last night and wouldn't you know it it was the 4th of July so Best Buy was closed and I couldn't get the 4th season to see what happens. I've been thinking of Wesly as a broken shell and Angel sinking into the water in that metal box all day at work. It's killing me. How could you people who were watching the series on TV stand to wait until the next year? Did it drive any of you to acts of violence? Man....



 I wasn't so concerned about Wesley or Angel, as I was screaming "Someone put a bullet on that Connor's head!!!!".


----------



## Crothian (Jul 5, 2006)

Ya, what Klaus said


----------



## barsoomcore (Jul 5, 2006)

Really? I was more like, "For heaven's sake, SOMEBODY make Fred eat a sandwich or something!"

Seriously. That girl is a STICK.


----------



## Klaus (Jul 5, 2006)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> Really? I was more like, "For heaven's sake, SOMEBODY make Fred eat a sandwich or something!"
> 
> Seriously. That girl is a STICK.



 Ahh, but such a pretty stick... Those big puppy eyes, the glasses, the brown hair just casually falling in front of her face...

...

... eh? Ah, yes!

Bullet. Connor's head.


----------



## Ranger REG (Jul 6, 2006)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> Really? I was more like, "For heaven's sake, SOMEBODY make Fred eat a sandwich or something!"
> 
> Seriously. That girl is a STICK.



Amy Ackers? Never thought she's bulimic or something.


----------



## Vigilance (Jul 6, 2006)

Nope, not bullimic, just tiny. And gorgeous. 

And yeah, Conner annoyed the frak out of me. 

Chuck


----------



## Umbran (Jul 6, 2006)

Tiew said:
			
		

> How could you people who were watching the series on TV stand to wait until the next year? Did it drive any of you to acts of violence? Man....




I actually think that in waiting for DVDs, folks are losing out on the suspense aspect that's built into the series otherwise.  Good writers can take advantage of the week (or weeks, or months) between episodes.  The time to think is, imho, an interesting part of the medium.


----------



## John Crichton (Jul 6, 2006)

Tiew said:
			
		

> So I just finished the third season of Angel on DVD last night and wouldn't you know it it was the 4th of July so Best Buy was closed and I couldn't get the 4th season to see what happens. I've been thinking of Wesly as a broken shell and Angel sinking into the water in that metal box all day at work. It's killing me. How could you people who were watching the series on TV stand to wait until the next year? Did it drive any of you to acts of violence? Man....



No, because anticipation rocks.  Yeah, I did let out a mournful, "Noooooo!" when the credits roled but that's a good thing.  It means the show did it's job perfectly.  Waiting 4 months to see the outcome was painful but not unfamiliar.  Waiting one day?  Suck it up, mang.  

Coincidentally, I just finished the 4th season of the West Wing and am really eager to see what happens in season 5.


----------



## RangerWickett (Jul 6, 2006)

Oh, do yourself a favor and buy season 5 of Angel at the same time you buy season 4. Not because of any upcoming holidays, but because you'll want to wash the bad taste of season 4 out of your mouth, and season 5 is remarkably crisp, clean, and tasty.


----------



## Tiew (Jul 6, 2006)

Yeah, I've heard five is much better... And it has Spike which is enough to make me wade through 4 even if every single episode sucks.

I'm with all you guys on killing Conner. I end up with that reaction a lot. It seems like the good guys are a lot harder on the other good guys than on each other. Like how many times does Angel let different evil lawyers and other villians go, then when Wes screws up he tries to kill him. Ooh well. I think if I was running that team we'd have a one strike you're out policy, try to kill any of us or destroy the world one time and we kill you. Of course that would screw the show up since most of the good characters were villians at one time or another. I think it is kind of cool that they try to fight evil without becoming ruthless, just frustrating sometimes.

As to suspense, watching the show on DVD is awesome. You'd be amazed how tight an episode made to be shown with comercials is without comercials. When I'm used to watching the next episode as soon as I want to having to wait a day is rough though. Don't mock my pain just because yours was greater.


----------



## KaosDevice (Jul 6, 2006)

Some shows are better then others for the DVD box treatment. I liked watching LOST much better as a set, back to back than the sometimes interminable waiting between shows. But Angel and Buffy I liked watching week by week just fine.


----------



## barsoomcore (Jul 6, 2006)

KaosDevice said:
			
		

> Angel and Buffy I liked watching week by week just fine.



The Joss knoweth TV in all its mysterious workings. Yea, verily.


----------



## Darthjaye (Jul 6, 2006)

The whole point of the length in between is to savor the last show while speculating what the next one will hold.   Anticipation and expectation man.   The DVD age has to some degree ruined this for people who did not watch them then.


----------



## Klaus (Jul 6, 2006)

In Monte Cook's review of the Firefly DVD set, he says something that is very true: Joss Whedon really knows how to pace things for TV. The episodes were MADE to be watched with commercial breaks, to make the most of those nice little cliffhangers he puts in every episode.

Man, I really want to watch Serenity... (goes to count them dimes).


----------



## Darthjaye (Jul 6, 2006)

Klaus said:
			
		

> In Monte Cook's review of the Firefly DVD set, he says something that is very true: Joss Whedon really knows how to pace things for TV. The episodes were MADE to be watched with commercial breaks, to make the most of those nice little cliffhangers he puts in every episode.
> 
> Man, I really want to watch Serenity... (goes to count them dimes).




Honestly though, it doesn't take Monte Cook to figure this out.   Anyone who was a fan of the show (or cinema in general for that matter) can understand that pacing and cliff-hanger moments do much for the audience to keep them interested and waiting on edge for the next moment.   Joss just seems to have a knack for finding the right characters and story's to convey this in his works.   The moments that led to commercial breaks can still be picked out very easily on the DVD's.   It's the reason why Monte (after watching the DVD's like the rest of us browncoat fans) can make that observation.  To be honest, you can see this moreso in his early stuff with Buffy and Angel.   The dramatic background music in these scenes led right into the commercials too.  

As for the Firefly and Serenity DVD's.   Go get em (if you don't already own the Firefly DVD's) and make sure you grab them pennies too.   Independently or together, they are both worth getting and watching a few times.   Fan boy quotes and great moments from both.   "Jaynestown" from the series is still one of my favorites.  For some reason I keep thinking he said something about still having scenes he wanted to add back in for Serenity in future versions, but I may be wrong.


----------



## Klaus (Jul 6, 2006)

Firefly hasn't been released on DVD here yet. Serenity was just released, so it's a bit too expensive for me these days. I'll borrow a friend's, though.

But I must say, the local cover for Serenity is horrid...


----------



## Aaron L (Jul 6, 2006)

Eh, Angel lost it when Doyle died.


----------



## Klaus (Jul 6, 2006)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> Eh, Angel lost it when Doyle died.



 I liked the early seasons best (even post-Doyle, but pre-hotel). If only they had Amy Acker then, and kept Katherine Rhom.


----------



## frandelgearslip (Jul 7, 2006)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Oh, do yourself a favor and buy season 5 of Angel at the same time you buy season 4. Not because of any upcoming holidays, but because you'll want to wash the bad taste of season 4 out of your mouth, and season 5 is remarkably crisp, clean, and tasty.




Funny how opinions differ.  I despise season 5.  It reminded me of everything that was bad about seasons 6 and 7 of Buffy.  To me season 4 of Angel is the only season of Angel on par with the best of Buffy (seasons 2 and 3).  In fact I hated that they added spike to the cast in season 5 since Spike was only a shell of the cool character that he had been in season 2 of Buffy.


----------



## John Crichton (Jul 7, 2006)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Oh, do yourself a favor and buy season 5 of Angel at the same time you buy season 4. Not because of any upcoming holidays, but because you'll want to wash the bad taste of season 4 out of your mouth, and season 5 is remarkably crisp, clean, and tasty.



Wow, this may be the first time that I directly and completely disagree with you.

Season 5 was fun and had some terrific moments but I thought that S4 was the best season of Angel.  The Jasmine storyline and all that went with it was riveting and well realized.  S5 was a little disjointed for my liking but had classic eps littered all over the place.  Maybe it's because I'm a sucker for continuing storylines that never let up but wow, I'm a little shocked that anyone would need to "wash the taste out of their mouth" because of S4 of Angel.  Yow.

Season 5 had great times, especially the finale which is one of the best 40+ minutes of TV ever to air.  But better than the whole of S4, even with super annoying Conner (who was easy to hate)?  Nope.  Not to this Jossaholic.

S4 of Angel is kin to S3 of Buffy for me.


----------



## John Crichton (Jul 7, 2006)

Tiew said:
			
		

> Yeah, I've heard five is much better... And it has Spike which is enough to make me wade through 4 even if every single episode sucks.



You heard wrong.    Spike is a more entertaining character than Conner but the overall greatness of S5 is not better than the overall greatness of S4.  It's an A but not an A+.  Either way, it is must watch genre-TV.  We all win.



			
				Tiew said:
			
		

> As to suspense, watching the show on DVD is awesome. You'd be amazed how tight an episode made to be shown with comercials is without comercials. When I'm used to watching the next episode as soon as I want to having to wait a day is rough though. Don't mock my pain just because yours was greater.



It's not mocking, it's just ribbing.  Feel the love.  And it was the good type of pain.  Squishy and anticipatory not knifey and bleedy.


----------



## John Crichton (Jul 7, 2006)

Klaus said:
			
		

> Firefly hasn't been released on DVD here yet. Serenity was just released, so it's a bit too expensive for me these days. I'll borrow a friend's, though.
> 
> But I must say, the local cover for Serenity is horrid...



Not to worry.  I know you are an artsy and visual guy from your posts but it means nothing.  I look at the cover for .5 seconds then stick it on the DVD shelf.  It's the spine art that *really* matters.


----------



## danzig138 (Jul 7, 2006)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Season 5 was fun and had some terrific moments but I thought that S4 was the best season of Angel.



Huh. I barely remember what happened in S4 because it was so freaking boring. I didn't care about the storyline, the people involved. nothing. It just bored the crap out of me. It's strange to me that someone thinks it was the best. Weird. Season 5 was pretty crap IMO. At least for the first half to two-thirds. After that, it picked up, but I have to say, after S4/5, I wasn't terribly sad to see the show go. 

The first three seasons were pretty gosh darned good though.


----------



## Klaus (Jul 7, 2006)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Not to worry.  I know you are an artsy and visual guy from your posts but it means nothing.  I look at the cover for .5 seconds then stick it on the DVD shelf.  It's the spine art that *really* matters.



 Oh, don't worry. Joss Whedon is my master now.  But the cover still sucks.

As for Angel, you're all wrong! The best seasons were 1-2. They had the Doyle (then Wesley), Cordy behaving like Cordy (and living with Ghost Dennis), that detective lady, Lindsay and Lilah (Stephanie Romanov is teh hot!) as bad guys and Angel telling Buffy to shut up and grow up (plus that "human again... for a while" episode).

After they moved to the hotel, it all went downhill.


----------



## KaosDevice (Jul 7, 2006)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Not to worry.  I know you are an artsy and visual guy from your posts but it means nothing.  I look at the cover for .5 seconds then stick it on the DVD shelf.  It's the spine art that *really* matters.






Oooooohhhh...yeah, looking good on the shelf next to the Firefly box set on one side and the Farscape starburst editions on the other....


----------



## Mercule (Jul 7, 2006)

Klaus said:
			
		

> Bullet. Connor's head.




Because it can't be said enough.

Oh, and Elizabeth Rohm was great.


----------



## Staffan (Jul 7, 2006)

Klaus said:
			
		

> After they moved to the hotel, it all went downhill.



That was the beginning of season 2.


----------



## werk (Jul 7, 2006)

Klaus said:
			
		

> Ahh, but such a pretty stick... Those big puppy eyes, the glasses, the brown hair just casually falling in front of her face...
















> Really? I was more like, "For heaven's sake, SOMEBODY make Fred eat a sandwich or something!"
> 
> Seriously. That girl is a STICK.




Isn't there enough hatred of fat people?  Do we really need to start hating skinny people too?


----------



## John Crichton (Jul 7, 2006)

danzig138 said:
			
		

> Huh. I barely remember what happened in S4 because it was so freaking boring. I didn't care about the storyline, the people involved. nothing. It just bored the crap out of me. It's strange to me that someone thinks it was the best. Weird. Season 5 was pretty crap IMO. At least for the first half to two-thirds. After that, it picked up, but I have to say, after S4/5, I wasn't terribly sad to see the show go.
> 
> The first three seasons were pretty gosh darned good though.



The show built itself into something special in S1-2 and took off in 3-4.  Yeah, the latter happened to have lots of Conner but they were the best.  How could you forget the S4 stuff?!? You were not paying attention to the return of Faith, the return of Angelus, Goddess Jasmine, Evil Cordy vs Willow, The Beast & dual-gun wielding Wes?  Because of that I say you weren't paying proper attention.  S4 had the best fights and overall storyline from start to finish in the entire series.

And now I challenge you to a battle to the death.  Weapons of your choice.


----------



## John Crichton (Jul 7, 2006)

KaosDevice said:
			
		

> Oooooohhhh...yeah, looking good on the shelf next to the Firefly box set on one side and the Farscape starburst editions on the other....



Lots-o-quality genre TV there, mang.


----------



## John Crichton (Jul 7, 2006)

Klaus said:
			
		

> Oh, don't worry. Joss Whedon is my master now.  But the cover still sucks.
> 
> > snipped general sillyness about cheese & olives <
> 
> After they moved to the hotel, it all went downhill.



See my responses to danzig.  We shall battle as well.  But we will use squirrels carved out of hardened mud as weapons.  En garde!


----------



## Klaus (Jul 8, 2006)

Bring it ONNNNN!!!!!!!

Cordy as a den mother? Sorry, that doesn't fly for me.

As for the return of Faith, she was much better in Season 1, when she went ballistic on Wesley and tried to get Angel to kill her. Plus that was the episode where Angel told Buffy to grow up.

All Season 1 needed was Amy Acker. But alas, that was not to be.


----------



## barsoomcore (Jul 8, 2006)

werk said:
			
		

> Do we really need to start hating skinny people too?



Hate? Me, hating Fred? I got nothing but love for Winifred. I'm a Fred Fan. Fred's my favourite character on _Angel_, easily.

But I'd have more love for her if she put on twenty pounds. I just worry about her, is all.

Hate Fred. The idea.


----------



## coyote6 (Jul 8, 2006)

I liked Smurf Fred, too. 

I'm trying to be patient while waiting for the new Buffy & Angel comics.


----------



## Ranger REG (Jul 8, 2006)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> Hate? Me, hating Fred? I got nothing but love for Winifred. I'm a Fred Fan. Fred's my favourite character on _Angel_, easily.
> 
> But I'd have more love for her if she put on twenty pounds. I just worry about her, is all.
> 
> Hate Fred. The idea.



Sighs. Bad enough that rumors are spinning about Kiera Knightley's physiques lately. Unless someone has proof Amy has an eating disorder, let's not have any premature concern.

Of course, I'm trying to erase the last moment she was on the _How I Met Your Mother_ sitcom when she was making out with the infamous Barney. *shudders*


----------



## Mouseferatu (Jul 8, 2006)

Some of us don't want her to gain weight because we're worried about her.

Some of us just aren't attracted to women who are all skin and bones.

She's got an _incredibly_ pretty face, no denying that. But she really does need to put on some weight before I could consider her truly beautiful.

(None of this changes the fact that she's a _fantastic_ actress, and Fred was a great character. I'm just commenting on the physical aspect since it's already come up.)

Now Charisma Carpenter... _That's_ pretty damn near perfection. Give me curves any day.


----------



## Welverin (Jul 8, 2006)

Klaus said:
			
		

> I wasn't so concerned about Wesley or Angel, as I was screaming "Someone put a bullet on that Connor's head!!!!".




Aye, laddy!

I hate Coonor with an undying passion. Shockingly I liked season much more, in spite of Spike's presence.



			
				Umbran said:
			
		

> I actually think that in waiting for DVDs, folks are losing out on the suspense aspect that's built into the series otherwise.  Good writers can take advantage of the week (or weeks, or months) between episodes.  The time to think is, imho, an interesting part of the medium.




I find it only leads to forgetting and I don't see how that makes anything better.


----------



## Vigilance (Jul 8, 2006)

danzig138 said:
			
		

> Huh. I barely remember what happened in S4 because it was so freaking boring. I didn't care about the storyline, the people involved. nothing. It just bored the crap out of me. It's strange to me that someone thinks it was the best. Weird. Season 5 was pretty crap IMO. At least for the first half to two-thirds. After that, it picked up, but I have to say, after S4/5, I wasn't terribly sad to see the show go.
> 
> The first three seasons were pretty gosh darned good though.




Exactly- I felt like they had one or two things they wanted to do in Season 4 and then dragged them out *forever*. I also felt like the ending with Jasmine was tacked on and not something planned all along. 

Season 4 was very, very bad imo and reminded me of Season 6 of Buffy in that they KEPT hitting me over the head with the same storylines again and again (yes yes, Buffy is in a destructive relationship and hates her job, WE GET IT). 

The only thing I liked about Season 4 were the John Woo moments they gave Wesley. It was satisfying to see him become a real hero and not a joke, and also answered something I had been screaming at the screen since Buffy season 1 "pick up a gun and shoot that thing".

Season 5 has some really great standalone episodes, and then really picks up cohesion when 



Spoiler



Lindsey comes back


.


----------



## Chimera (Jul 8, 2006)

I watched the first season and a half or so of Angel, then lost all interest as it kept spiralling into more and more "grim and gritty".  Not their fault, all mine.  I was getting extremely tired of "grim and gritty" in life, in movies, in my D&D games.  Just got so depressing and uninteresting that I couldn't take it anymore.

Came back for Season 5, knowing it would be the last one and hearing good things about the show once again.  Was definitely worth it.  I loved season 5.


----------



## Staffan (Jul 8, 2006)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Now Charisma Carpenter... _That's_ pretty damn near perfection. Give me curves any day.



Have you watched Veronica Mars? She shows up in quite a few second-season episodes (and in some, wearing not very much at all). Having a baby definitely agreed with her.


----------



## Klaus (Jul 8, 2006)

You know, she lost me when she cut her hair and dyed it blonde. She wasn't all that in the latter Angel seasons or in Miss Match.

But she was damn fine in that gentleman's magazine, IYKWIMAITYD.


----------



## CrusaderX (Jul 8, 2006)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> But I'd have more love for her if she put on twenty pounds. I just worry about her, is all.




Eh, some people are just naturally thin.  _I'm_ naturally thin.  Her body is most likely due to genetics and a fast metabolism, rather than a health problem/eating disorder.

I love you just the way you are, Amy.


----------



## glass (Jul 10, 2006)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Of course, I'm trying to erase the last moment she was on the _How I Met Your Mother_ sitcom
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Having seen Buffy and Angel all the way to the end, I thought this thread would be spoiler safe. Silly me!


glass.


----------



## Kesh (Jul 10, 2006)

CrusaderX said:
			
		

> Eh, some people are just naturally thin.  _I'm_ naturally thin.  Her body is most likely due to genetics and a fast metabolism, rather than a health problem/eating disorder.




Yeah. I naturally weigh between 115 and 125 pounds, depending on how much I exercise (to add weight, not lose it). I just can't bulk up from normal exercise or diet, so I'm skinny as a rail.


----------



## Henry (Jul 10, 2006)

Amy Acker is not too thin to me, but she borders between cute and hot. 

Charisma is, well, Charisma.  Nothing much to say about that figure that would do it justice. Yowza!


----------



## mhacdebhandia (Jul 11, 2006)

My friend has love for Charisma-on-_Angel_'s hotness, but (despite loving her presence on the show and her performance) keeps complaining about the fake breasts of Charisma-on-_Veronica Mars_.

I don't have any interest in the latter show, so I wouldn't know.


----------



## Ranger REG (Jul 11, 2006)

mhacdebhandia said:
			
		

> My friend has love for Charisma-on-_Angel_'s hotness, but (despite loving her presence on the show and her performance) keeps complaining about the fake breasts of Charisma-on-_Veronica Mars_.



"Fake breasts"? How can first-time mom Charisma have fake breasts (aside using falsies)?


----------



## Ranger REG (Jul 11, 2006)

glass said:
			
		

> Having seen Buffy and Angel all the way to the end, I thought this thread would be spoiler safe. Silly me!



Well, I haven't spoiled any _Buffy_ and _Angel_ series. You can only suspect what abominable deed she did on the Monday night sitcom.


----------



## mhacdebhandia (Jul 11, 2006)

Fake breasts are a lot more sophisticated, structurally, than they used to be, and there's not much of a problem with breastfeeding anymore.

Now, again, I haven't seen the show or Charisma in it - but my friend says "So fake - they're inches apart, and that's unnatural". Having a big separation between your breasts is a classic sign of enhancement, so . . . she's convinced Charisma had a boob job.

Maybe to fix the ruination of them after her pregnancy, maybe to help her chances in the industry post-Buffyverse? I don't know.


----------



## danzig138 (Jul 11, 2006)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> You were not paying attention to the return of Faith,



 Don't like Faith. never did. Not an active dislike - that would have been better. She was just dull as all get out. 


> Goddess Jasmine,



 Suuuuper boring. Sleepytimstoryville.  


> Evil Cordy vs Willow



 I kind of remember that. I remember that it was a complet and utter non-event. Should've been cool; wasn't. 







> S4 had the best fights and overall storyline from start to finish in the entire series.



 Best fights. . . heh heh. If by best you mean "Hey, let's turn on the slooooooooo-mooooooo machine to chew up airtime because our season is kind of crap." then, yes, it had the best fight scenes.   I almost quit wathcing because of the LSD-tripping-guy-at-the-slo-mo-control-machine. 



> And now I challenge you to a battle to the death.  Weapons of your choice.



I choose. . . my woman. She has a brown belt and is in far, far better condition than me.


----------



## Pielorinho (Jul 11, 2006)

I'm another huge fan of season 4:  it was my favorite season of the show.  Jasmine was just about the perfect villain.  Some powers don't give you a saving throw!

Daniel


----------



## drothgery (Jul 11, 2006)

Pielorinho said:
			
		

> I'm another huge fan of season 4:  it was my favorite season of the show.  Jasmine was just about the perfect villain.  Some powers don't give you a saving throw!




Eh. I hated the main arc of season 4 (with Evil Cordy, Connor the lapdog, and Jasmine), which was made even worse by W&H "rewarding" the crew at the end for "preventing world peace". But the secondary stuff (mostly in developing Faith, Wesley, Gunn, and Fred) was great.


----------



## John Crichton (Jul 12, 2006)

Pielorinho said:
			
		

> I'm another huge fan of season 4:  it was my favorite season of the show.  Jasmine was just about the perfect villain.  Some powers don't give you a saving throw!
> 
> Daniel



 Ah, someone who makes some sense!  

We should toast to S4 at GenCon (assuming you're going again this year).


----------



## Klaus (Jul 12, 2006)

drothgery said:
			
		

> Eh. I hated the main arc of season 4 (with Evil Cordy, Connor the lapdog, and Jasmine), which was made even worse by W&H "rewarding" the crew at the end for "preventing world peace". But the secondary stuff (mostly in developing Faith, Wesley, Gunn, and Fred) was great.



 I agree with this man.


----------



## Grog (Jul 14, 2006)

drothgery said:
			
		

> Eh. I hated the main arc of season 4 (with Evil Cordy, Connor the lapdog, and Jasmine),




Yeah, I couldn't stand any of those things either. Especially Evil Cordy. She was such a great character and she was completely ruined here.

I never appreciated just how much Cordelia added to the show until she was gone (and I count evil Cordy as "gone"). I remember seeing "You're Welcome" in season 5 - for one, shining episode, I had my show back. It was great. And then, she was gone, and no amount of swaggering, shirtless Spike could make up for her absence.


----------



## Vigilance (Jul 15, 2006)

drothgery said:
			
		

> Eh. I hated the main arc of season 4 (with Evil Cordy, Connor the lapdog, and Jasmine), which was made even worse by W&H "rewarding" the crew at the end for "preventing world peace". But the secondary stuff (mostly in developing Faith, Wesley, Gunn, and Fred) was great.




Agree totally.


----------



## John Crichton (Jul 15, 2006)

Klaus said:
			
		

> I agree with this man.



 I'm curious as to why.

The story was very solid.  I'm interested to hear the other side's opinion.


----------



## glass (Jul 15, 2006)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Well, I haven't spoiled any _Buffy_ and _Angel_ series. You can only suspect what abominable deed she did on the Monday night sitcom.



It's a Sunday night sitcom in the UK, but I rather liked it.

Unfortunately, it wasn't on last week to make way for the World Cup and Wimbledon finals and according to this week's TV guide it is not back this week either. Looks like I might not get to see the abominable deed anyway.


glass.


----------



## drothgery (Jul 15, 2006)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> I'm curious as to why.
> 
> The story was very solid.  I'm interested to hear the other side's opinion.




Evil Cordy spent way too much time on petty games.

Connor, who had been tough, smart, and resourceful enough to manage dumping Angel in the Pacific, was way too easy to manipulate, and way too accepting of Jasmine for anyone raised with the bright-line morality he was brought up with.

Jasmine was an incredibly lame villian. And no one tried very hard to dispel her notion that despite eating people and engaging in mass mind control she was a force for good.


----------



## Klaus (Jul 15, 2006)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> I'm curious as to why.
> 
> The story was very solid.  I'm interested to hear the other side's opinion.



 I must say, I was getting tired of the darkness and broodiness and angst for a while. Cordy as a den mother never flew with me. To me, she was at her best in the earlier seasons, when she *would* give you a pep talk and all, but in regular Cordy snarkiness (plus I loved that long black hair). Connor was just -- ugh --. And the whole apocalypse thing was.. I don't know... too out in the open for a series set in the Buffyverse? Plus me no likey that they killed Lilah. She was a strong female antagonist, and not many of those around.

The Magic Bullet episode was amazing, regardless.


----------

