# What makes Power Attack 'Good'?



## Talonblaze (Sep 3, 2011)

I've heard alot about Power Attack being praised over alot of other feats as being a feat that is considered quite useful. However I find its uses and advantages as a feat alone quite limiting.

It has a maximum of +5 Damage for a -5 Attack. Which at times can mean putting down that extra enemy, but in the long run I feel it can just as likely make you do 0 for that Power Miss you rely on.

The one thing that seems to give it a high notation is its use for multiple feat prerequisites. As, even I'll admit, is one of the most common things out there.

However unlike its counterpart Combat Expertise which can go to Improved Combat Expertise, Power Attack itself never actually improves (afaik). Which was surprising to me. Why was there never an advancement made for such a 'useful' and 'powerful' feat especially for warriors? (Something that perhaps could have lessened the gap between casters and warriors.)

Course, this argument could be rendered totally pointless if I am just lacking material.
Even so, other than its broad tree addition, it doesn't strike me as being this huge deal.


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## shipratstew (Sep 3, 2011)

Maybe I'm wrong here but I always thought power attack didn't have the +5/-5 cap like combat expertise? Also if using a non-light weapon in two hands you get double the investment, so with a -5 you would get a +10 damage. 


*Just checked the d20srd and did not see any restrictions on the amount of attack bonus you can spend, just as long as its not higher than your bab.

sent from my Android phone


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## TwoSix (Sep 3, 2011)

1)  Power attack is limited to -BAB/+BAB, not -5/+5.  

2)  Power attack does double damage if you're using a two-handed weapon, so it's actually -BAB/+(2*BAB).

3)  PA isn't very good at low levels.  But once you hit about 8 or so, most melee fighters will hit most monsters on a 2-4 with their first two attacks, assuming that they have some sort of haste buff to give them an additional attack.  Power attack gives you a huge bonus against anything that doesn't have huge armor, assuming you're smart about trading off.

Just for illustration, my 10th level barbarian/cleric usually opens with an attack pattern of +23/+23/+18 (+10 BAB, +8 Str, +2 falchion, +1 haste, +2 charge) and does 2d4+15 (+12 Str, +2 falchion, +1 electricity).

Swapping out 5 attack for 10 damage, I still usually hit on most of my attacks and do 50% more damage.


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## emoplato (Sep 3, 2011)

Talonblaze said:


> I've heard alot about Power Attack being praised over alot of other feats as being a feat that is considered quite useful. However I find its uses and advantages as a feat alone quite limiting.
> 
> It has a maximum of +5 Damage for a -5 Attack. Which at times can mean putting down that extra enemy, but in the long run I feel it can just as likely make you do 0 for that Power Miss you rely on.
> 
> ...



Alone it isn't that great, but it really comes into its own with a two-handed weapon. It receives double damage for the penalty. Leap attack allows a free jump check doubling power attack, tripling with two hand. Battle jump doubles all damage when falling from ten feet or more and considers the attack a charge. Then finally improved bull rush and shock trooper has an option to transfer the attack penalty to a defense penalty on a charge. So, if you have the chance, it can be an instant kill with a really high strength  (the cap is your base attack modifier actually).


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## Talonblaze (Sep 3, 2011)

Haha well, dunno where I got the max +5 for -5 deal. Guess it must have been the group I played with or just got it confused with Combat Expertise. Would explain why I never saw any 'Improved Power Attack' out there.

So its definitely alot more useful than I gave it credit for.


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## was (Sep 3, 2011)

I find PA to be a good thing to have when you're running into foes that you just can't seem to hit.  Whether it's that they have a nice AC, or your dice are just failing you, its nice to get that bonus.  You can't put the bad guy down if you can't hit him.


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## Vegepygmy (Sep 4, 2011)

It's also nice for breaking things (when you just need to overcome an object's hardness and deal as much hp damage as you can).


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## Dandu (Sep 4, 2011)

Talonblaze said:


> Haha well, dunno where I got the max +5 for -5 deal. Guess it must have been the group I played with or just got it confused with Combat Expertise. Would explain why I never saw any 'Improved Power Attack' out there.
> 
> So its definitely alot more useful than I gave it credit for.



Perhaps you play Pathfinder, or your DM houseruled it?



> I find PA to be a good thing to have when you're running into foes that  you just can't seem to hit.  Whether it's that they have a nice AC, or  your dice are just failing you, its nice to get that bonus.  You can't  put the bad guy down if you can't hit him.



Psst, use Wraithstrike.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Sep 4, 2011)

Vegepygmy said:


> It's also nice for breaking things (when you just need to overcome an object's hardness and deal as much hp damage as you can).




It's also fantastic on a coup de grace.


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## Talonblaze (Sep 4, 2011)

Dandu said:


> Perhaps you play Pathfinder, or your DM houseruled it?




Naw we don't own any of the Pathfinder stuff. (We have been looking to try, but we got mixed reviews.)

I'm almost positive it was either house rule (since all of us thought it was the +5/-5 deal) or just a me blunder. Either way its thankfully rectified.

Heh, I might have to recomb my books and see what other feats we got confused through misconception and houserules for so long.


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## Jackinthegreen (Sep 4, 2011)

If you really want to make Power Attack shine there's always the Frenzied Berserker's Supreme Power Attack which trades -1 attack for +4 damage when using a 2h weapon.  As odd as it sounds I have a Ranger/Monk/Barbarian/Deepwarden/Fist of the Forest/Frenzied Berserker build coming together nicely for lots of attacks and Rage variations, plus Shock Trooper of course,


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## Dandu (Sep 4, 2011)

> As odd as it sounds I have a Ranger/Monk/Barbarian/Deepwarden/Fist of the Forest/Frenzied Berserker build



Poser.


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## Loren Pechtel (Sep 4, 2011)

TwoSix said:


> 3)  PA isn't very good at low levels.  But once you hit about 8 or so, most melee fighters will hit most monsters on a 2-4 with their first two attacks, assuming that they have some sort of haste buff to give them an additional attack.  Power attack gives you a huge bonus against anything that doesn't have huge armor, assuming you're smart about trading off.




I haven't calculated it for 3.5.  Long ago I brute-force calculated it for 3.0 and found that it was nearly worthless:  You always took it if you needed a 20 to hit anyway (exploiting the min 5% hit chance of the game) or if you would hit on a 1 (exploiting the 5% miss chance.)  Other than that the only case that was left was the one I didn't calculate:  Attacking against DR.  I would assume it had some benefit then but I didn't crunch the numbers.


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## Jackinthegreen (Sep 4, 2011)

Dandu said:


> Poser.



 I'll admit, I got the Deepwarden/FotF combo from you.  A least it's functional!


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## HoboGod (Sep 5, 2011)

Even if it were only up to -5 penalty, power attack is still a great way to add extra damage. Here's a 5th level Orc Barbarian using a masterwork greatsword with 20 Str using Power Attack vs Different ACs. (This is even assuming you rolled poorly and your highest stat was a 15, increased to 16 at 4th level, also that you haven't been able to afford any magic items to increase your strength, you don't have weapon focus, and you're not using rage. Take this table as 4 lower than a fully optimized build. Also note that these numbers reflect monsters immune to critical hits and does not include bonuses to attack gained from charging or flanking where best to take advantage of power attack.)

Optimal Power Attack is the power attack this orc should use to deliver the highest average damage. Average damage is derived from multiplying average weapon damage * chance to hit.

AC > Optimal Power Attack
10 > MAX
12 > MAX
14 > MAX
16 > Power Attack +4
18 > Power Attack +3
20 > Power Attack +2
22 > Power Attack +1
24 > Power Attack +0
26 > Power Attack +0
28 > Power Attack +0
30 > Power Attack +0

From this table, you can see that this Orc Barbarian should be taking advantage of his Power Attack to some degree as long as his opponent is beneath AC 24 (if fully optimized, beneath AC 28.) Don't believe me? Check my math. (If it's wrong, don't yell at me and just politely correct me. It's 3 AM and I've been in a mosh pit earlier this evening.)


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## Empirate (Sep 5, 2011)

Loren Pechtel said:


> I haven't calculated it for 3.5.  Long ago I brute-force calculated it for 3.0 and found that it was nearly worthless:  You always took it if you needed a 20 to hit anyway (exploiting the min 5% hit chance of the game) or if you would hit on a 1 (exploiting the 5% miss chance.)  Other than that the only case that was left was the one I didn't calculate:  Attacking against DR.  I would assume it had some benefit then but I didn't crunch the numbers.




Even if it came down to "expected damage/round is equal with or without PA", it's a nice feat in that it gives you _options_. This is especially true if you consider that, in some situations, you're going to be buffed like there's no tomorrow, while at other times, you're going to have no buffs running at all. Being able to convert a bunch of attack bonuses into damage bonuses is just great! If you charge downhill into somebody's flank (+5 total attack bonus), you want to make that one attack a telling one. If you've buffed with Bull's Strength, Haste, Prayer, Inspire Courage, and use Arcane Strike for a total attack bonus of +8 or so, and you're facing a bunch of tough mooks, you'll want to savor the opportunity to mow them all down in one strike instead of two. In situations such as these, the options PA affords you are good to have - while at other times, when you need to hit that AC in the first place, you can just refrain from using PA. Unlike Monkey Grip, for example.

Bottom line? Options are good to have.


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## Dandu (Sep 5, 2011)

Also, Leap Attack + Shock Trooper.

And Wraithstrike, but I already said that.


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