# Babylon 5... reboot?



## Umbran (Sep 27, 2021)

Well, this sounds... a little strange, to be honest.









						Babylon 5 Is Being Rebooted
					

Babylon 5 is going to be rebooted. According to The Hollywood Reporter, The CW is developing a “from-the-ground-up reboot” with series creator J. Michael Straczynski, which will follow …




					www.tor.com
				












						‘Babylon 5’ Series Reboot From J. Michael Straczynski In Works At the CW
					

A new version of the Emmy-winning space opera television series Babylon 5 is in the works. The CW has put in development Babylon 5, described as a “from-the-ground-up reboot” of the cri…




					deadline.com


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## niklinna (Sep 27, 2021)

Well, with any luck this time around, he won't have to compress all of what should've been season 5 into a few episodes at the end of season 4?


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## Umbran (Sep 27, 2021)

Yeah, but getting anything like the Londo/G'Kar dymanic?  

JMS is not know for retreading his own work.  So I am wondering what his plan here is....


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## payn (Sep 27, 2021)

reboot? Wish they would use the setting in a new series.


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## Janx (Sep 27, 2021)

I'd probably watch it, like I watch anything Trek.  But I'm against the basic idea of doing the show over.

I'd be fine with using CGI and stuff to clean up and fix the existing footage.  reshoot all the space stuff, whatever. Digitially correct gaffs that made it on screen, and improve the blended scenes (CGI+live).  Kinda of like what they did with the TOS.

But I'd rather just have the One.


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## aco175 (Sep 27, 2021)

I came to that show late and started watching in season 3ish and then found myself disappointed by the cancelation.  I would watch a reboot. 

What kind of reboot?  A Star Trek with another set of characters and more of the same.  A Star Wars movie where the last 3 were just a copy of the first 3.  Maybe something like Battlestar Galactica with another whole show or prequel.  I did enjoy all the styles of reboot, but some more than others.  

I did see where there are no new ideas and have plans to reboot Wonder Years and Doogie Howser MD for a new audience.


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## MarkB (Sep 27, 2021)

Maybe a reboot in the same sense as the Star Trek Kelvinverse, or Battlestar Galactica - begin from a similar premise, but then build a new storyline from there. Trying to recreate the original, even just the major story beats, feels like it would be a lot of work to get somewhere we've already been.


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## niklinna (Sep 27, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Yeah, but getting anything like the Londo/G'Kar dymanic?



Highly unlikely. They had some amazing actors in that show.


Umbran said:


> JMS is not know for retreading his own work.  So I am wondering what his plan here is....



Considering how much the studio munged his industry-changing project*, I can see how he might want a chance to do it as he envisioned.

_* Or perhaps, anticipatory of industry change._


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## Umbran (Sep 27, 2021)

MarkB said:


> Maybe a reboot in the same sense as the Star Trek Kelvinverse, or Battlestar Galactica - begin from a similar premise, but then build a new storyline from there. Trying to recreate the original, even just the major story beats, feels like it would be a lot of work to get somewhere we've already been.




So, JMS is not know for retreading his prior work.  And he seems smart enough to know that he can't catch _the same_ lightning in a bottle again.  So, like the dynamics of Londo and G'Kar?  If he tries that again, he's putting it in direct comparison with his own work, and if it fails it is... bad.  So, I am wondering if the rebooting will be rather extensive.  Same themes, different races and characters.


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## MGibster (Sep 27, 2021)

I was a huge fan of Babylon 5 so I'm a little ambivalent about the idea of a reboot.  Looking at the BSG reboot, I suppose it took a similar premise and we ended up with a different show so I guess that'd be okay.  I'll give a new series a chance at least I just hope they don't rehash what we've already seen.  And we I don't imagine we'll see another Londo/G'Kar with the same relationship as Katsulas and Jurasik.  A wise man once said he's unlikely to catch the same lightning in a bottle.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 27, 2021)

This _is _odd, to say the least.  In his position, I’d rather expand upon what was done previously with B5 than revisit it.  If I were to reboot something, it would be _Crusade._


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## MarkB (Sep 27, 2021)

Umbran said:


> So, JMS is not know for retreading his prior work.  And he seems smart enough to know that he can't catch _the same_ lightning in a bottle again.  So, like the dynamics of Londo and G'Kar?  If he tries that again, he's putting it in direct comparison with his own work, and if it fails it is... bad.  So, I am wondering if the rebooting will be rather extensive.  Same themes, different races and characters.



Well, if the article is accurate it seems that at least one character is the same - it's supposed to begin with John Sheridan being assigned to the station (I guess Jeffrey Sinclair doesn't get a look-in this time around). Maybe the BSG approach of "some of the same names, but not necessarily the same characters".

There's plenty of room to take things in different directions. Maybe this time around it will be G'kar rather than Londo who gives the most pleasing answer to Morden's question.


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## ART! (Sep 27, 2021)

I guess this will give him a chance to correct whatever he sees as flaws or missed opportunities in the original.


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## Umbran (Sep 27, 2021)

ART! said:


> I guess this will give him a chance to correct whatever he sees as flaws or missed opportunities in the original.




And also update ideas.  He's done a lot of varying work since the first show.  As an example, if we have Telepaths in the new B5, maybe he's going to bring in ideas he got while working on Sense8, and so on.

I am in a rewatch of the original now... wand I expect digging into the political commentary is likely on his wish list.


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## Li Shenron (Sep 27, 2021)

I am in the middle of re-watching the whole series, first time with the kids. I also feel that re-making the outdoor CGI scenes is all that this shows needs. 

I wouldn't want to watch a remake of the same story, particularly because so many of the original actors have passed away prematurely. 

I don't remember any remake/reboot of a movie or complete series that has lived up to the original. Only Battlestar Galactica won me over the original but that's because the original was never finished. On the technical side, new movies can be much better than 80s and 90s original for sure, but even then I think their success is short-lived.


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## J.Quondam (Sep 27, 2021)

A reboot? CW? 
_But_ JMS himself?

Hmm... put me down in the _"would rather see another story in the same universe than a reboot"_ group.   I have big reservations, _but_ if it came to fruition, I _would_ check it out.


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## Ryujin (Sep 27, 2021)

I doubt that anyone could ever chew the scenery like Andreas Katsulas. I'd give it a chance but, with my general feelings about reboots, it would be a tough sell. It would need to be _very_ good.

OTOH giving "Crusade" another shot, as it hadn't gotten too far yet, would have some possibilities. Same universe. What has gone before is just prologue. Why does that sentence feel like a Koshism?


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## Mallus (Sep 28, 2021)

JMS talking about the project on Twitter has me really excited. For me as a fan, but also for him. He’s getting a chance to revisit, remix, and retell his masterpiece.

JMS on the reboot


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## doctorbadwolf (Sep 28, 2021)

Mallus said:


> JMS talking about the project on Twitter has me really excited. For me as a fan, but also for him. He’s getting a chance to revisit, remix, and retell his masterpiece.
> 
> JMS on the reboot



Okay, yeah, that has me excited as well. 

CW leaves a little bit of worry, especially with how the quality of Supergirl went down immediately upon switching to their hands, but hopefully they stick to their commitment to give him creative freedom.


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## Ryujin (Sep 28, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Okay, yeah, that has me excited as well.
> 
> CW leaves a little bit of worry, especially with how the quality of Supergirl went down immediately upon switching to their hands, but hopefully they stick to their commitment to give him creative freedom.



I must admit to having some trepidation about the trademark CW melodrama creeping into it.


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## doctorbadwolf (Sep 28, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> I must admit to having some trepidation about the trademark CW melodrama creeping into it.



Yeah, but as long as the normal CW writers don't stick their hands in, it should be fine. I hope.


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## JThursby (Sep 28, 2021)

Maybe someone at CW was watching the Earth Gov plotline and thought it was topical.

More seriously, if this is going to happen I hope the new Sinclair/Sheridan equivalent be more complex and less an outright messiah figure.  This always bothered me.  The show was great about portraying the messiness of politics and war, having the main characters both be Space Jesus (Sinclair is arguably more a Space Moses) felt like a massive cop out.


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## Mallus (Sep 28, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Okay, yeah, that has me excited as well.
> 
> CW leaves a little bit of worry, especially with how the quality of Supergirl went down immediately upon switching to their hands, but hopefully they stick to their commitment to give him creative freedom.



The way I look at it, the CW signals an attempt to reach a younger audience, but the choice of B5 means they’re interested in broadening their target demographic. Otherwise they’d be adapting some popular YA genre series, not an old, award-winning cult space opera most popular with old sci-fi heads.

And if it’s on the CW, I can finally get my buddy Steve to watch. He eats that CW… umm... content up. Lord knows my attempts to get him to watch back in the 90s met with a string of failures.


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## Ryujin (Sep 28, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Yeah, but as long as the normal CW writers don't stick their hands in, it should be fine. I hope.



Producers tend to be more of an issue. And by "producers" I mean the people who control the purse strings, but have little creative talent themselves. They are the ones responsible for giving a major role to the "actress" that they are sleeping with, giving the job of editing to cousin Leo, or demanding that they get to have their idea of a giant spider creature in the final act. Yeah, the first two are paraphrased from actual events, but the last one is absolutely real.


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## payn (Sep 28, 2021)

I havent really engaged with anything on CW. I know its not prime time, but how is the programming typically?


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## pming (Sep 28, 2021)

Hiya!

Reboot? CW?

...er.... I'm going to reserve judgement until I hear more. Right now I am... cautious.

^_^

Paul L. Ming


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## Marc_C (Sep 28, 2021)

It was great then. I have the complete DVD set, plus the movies. I bit too preachy and sanctimonious for my taste these days. Tried watching it this past winter. The low budget production didn't age very well.

CW proved they can do really good TV that subverts tropes with Supernatural. I could watch it if they have really good writers.


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## Ryujin (Sep 28, 2021)

pming said:


> Hiya!
> 
> Reboot? CW?
> 
> ...



Don't worry, it'll be great. Sheridan trying to decide if he really loves Delenn or Ivanova. G'Kar and Mollari fighting over Lyta's affections. But it's really the new cool kid in scho... on station, Kosh, that the girls are all crazy over.


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## J.Quondam (Sep 28, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> Don't worry, it'll be great. Sheridan trying to decide if he really loves Delenn or Ivanova. G'Kar and Mollari fighting over Lyta's affections. But it's really the new cool kid in scho... on station, Kosh, that the girls are all crazy over.



Admittedly, that episode where Bester is wedgied in the hallway gets pretty intense.


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## Mallus (Sep 28, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> Don't worry, it'll be great. Sheridan trying to decide if he really loves Delenn or Ivanova. G'Kar and Mollari fighting over Lyta's affections. But it's really the new cool kid in scho... on station, Kosh, that the girls are all crazy over.



I have no shame. I’d watch a show with Kosh as the transfer student.


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## Stalker0 (Sep 28, 2021)

So the CW show the 100 is a good bench for me here.

The show starts out as standard cw fare that quickly gets cleaned and polished up into a damn creative take on human issues. It had its slip ups for sure, but it’s the most “non-cw CW” show ive seen, and quite enjoyed it.

if b5 can get on that wagon it’s got a chance


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## Snarf Zagyg (Sep 28, 2021)

Mallus said:


> JMS talking about the project on Twitter has me really excited. For me as a fan, but also for him. He’s getting a chance to revisit, remix, and retell his masterpiece.
> 
> JMS on the reboot




Reading his thread reminded me that so much of the cast is no longer with us.


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## JThursby (Sep 28, 2021)

Mallus said:


> I have no shame. I’d watch a show with Kosh as the transfer student.



"Hey Kosh, you're cute, wanna go on a date?"
"RELATIONSHIPS ARE A THREE EDGED SWORD."


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## Umbran (Sep 28, 2021)

Mallus said:


> Otherwise they’d be adapting some popular YA genre series, not an old, award-winning cult space opera most popular with old sci-fi heads.




Gen-X media has turned out to have wide appeal.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 28, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> Don't worry, it'll be great. Sheridan trying to decide if he really loves Delenn or Ivanova. G'Kar and Mollari fighting over Lyta's affections. But it's really the new cool kid in scho... on station, Kosh, that the girls are all crazy over.






Mallus said:


> I have no shame. I’d watch a show with Kosh as the transfer student.






JThursby said:


> "Hey Kosh, you're cute, wanna go on a date?"
> "RELATIONSHIPS ARE A THREE EDGED SWORD."



Babylon 90210.

….and I just had this image of some weirdo late in the series looking for “D’Juan”, with little success. As in, “Not D’Juan.”


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## delericho (Sep 28, 2021)

Given the loss of so many of the cast, and given the time that has passed, a reboot is probably the best way to go with B5. That said, it may well be that the _actual_ best thing to do is "nothing". I guess I'll check it out when the time comes.



Ryujin said:


> What has gone before is just prologue. Why does that sentence feel like a Koshism?



Wasn't that one Delenn? From the end of S3.


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## Ryujin (Sep 28, 2021)

delericho said:


> Given the loss of so many of the cast, and given the time that has passed, a reboot is probably the best way to go with B5. That said, it may well be that the _actual_ best thing to do is "nothing". I guess I'll check it out when the time comes.
> 
> 
> Wasn't that one Delenn? From the end of S3.



Could be. Or something much like it.


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## amethal (Sep 28, 2021)

delericho said:


> Given the loss of so many of the cast, and given the time that has passed, a reboot is probably the best way to go with B5. That said, it may well be that the _actual_ best thing to do is "nothing". I guess I'll check it out when the time comes.



I'll give it a try, watch it if I like it and stop watching it if I don't. Nothing to lose.

I only watched the original episodes last year, so "having my childhood ruined" in a Star Wars style overreaction to something I don't like isn't a risk for me. (EDIT - which is not meant to imply it is a risk for anyone else either!)


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## Mallus (Sep 28, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Gen-X media has turned out to have wide appeal.



True. Been meaning to check out that Cobra Kai series!


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## Janx (Sep 28, 2021)

The Great Maker long tweeted about this.  He went over all the options and why they wouldn't work.

At some point, we have to put our faith in JMS. This is how he gets to work on Babylon 5 again.  Maybe there would be no deal if it wasn't a do-over. But we also know he wouldn't settle for less than full control. 

So we'll get a show with a familiar name. And some new surprises because he knows we know the old ones.


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## pming (Sep 29, 2021)

Hiya!

The scary thing? All the "jokes" about what the CW might do...well... 10 years ago I'd be laughing through and through! Today... more "cold-sweats and trepidation of impending horror".



^_^

Paul L. Ming


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## Mallus (Sep 29, 2021)

pming said:


> The scary thing? All the "jokes" about what the CW might do...well... 10 years ago I'd be laughing through and through! Today... more "cold-sweats and trepidation of impending horror".



One thing is certain. The entire cast will be prettier.


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## Zardnaar (Oct 2, 2021)

Mallus said:


> True. Been meaning to check out that Cobra Kai series!




 It's so so good. One of the few reboots done well.  More of a sequel though.

 So B5 reboot be great or complete drivel. One obvious way is sane station and backdrop but different characters for the most part.


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## Stalker0 (Oct 3, 2021)

Zardnaar said:


> It's so so good. One of the few reboots done well.  More of a sequel though.
> 
> So B5 reboot be great or complete drivel. One obvious way is sane station and backdrop but different characters for the most part.



An interesting option is, while the main plot points follow the same general beat, B5 had a lot of background episodes and world building type things and perhaps thst is where the heart of the differences could lie 

there’s a lot they could switch up there. Covering some of garibaldis past we don’t know, maybe seeing some of Sheridan when he was in Tibet, showing an even creepier side to psi core.


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## J.Quondam (Oct 3, 2021)

I have to admit: the more people here talk about how a reboot of B5 could unfold in interesting ways, the more I'm warming to the idea.


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## Ryujin (Oct 3, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> An interesting option is, while the main plot points follow the same general beat, B5 had a lot of background episodes and world building type things and perhaps thst is where the heart of the differences could lie
> 
> there’s a lot they could switch up there. Covering some of garibaldis past we don’t know, maybe seeing some of Sheridan when he was in Tibet, showing an even creepier side to psi core.



There's a fair bit of "creepy" that was revealed in Psi Corp, that wasn't expanded upon as much as it might have been. For example, their (what is essentially) eugenics programme, to try and breed stronger telepaths, by forced breeding. Their experiments on existing TPs to try and increase their power levels. We saw what a success could mean, with Jason Ironheart, but not the many, many failures.


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## Umbran (Oct 3, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> there’s a lot they could switch up there. Covering some of garibaldis past we don’t know, maybe seeing some of Sheridan when he was in Tibet, showing an even creepier side to psi core.




I expect to see new characters, honestly.  I don't think they will want to see many direct comparisons, Garibaldi to Garibaldi, Vir to Vir, and so on.


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## MarkB (Oct 3, 2021)

Umbran said:


> I expect to see new characters, honestly.  I don't think they will want to see many direct comparisons, Garibaldi to Garibaldi, Vir to Vir, and so on.



I dunno, I could see JMS using the original characters specifically in order to subvert expectations.


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## Umbran (Oct 3, 2021)

MarkB said:


> I dunno, I could see JMS using the original characters specifically in order to subvert expectations.




Yes, well, I don't know if the short thrill of subverting expectations will stand up to the years-long issue of having someone trying to be as good a G'Kar as Andreas Katsulas... and failing.


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## Zardnaar (Oct 4, 2021)

I wouldn't mind if some if the old characters are around but in the background perhaps? 

 Eg Sheridan is the base commander but Bob and Kate are the main characters doing something else. 

 If the focus is sane characters, different actors yeah may not work.


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## bloodtide (Oct 4, 2021)

I was a little unhappy with the idea of a reboot of B5.  But JMS is doing it and I think he made a good case for it in his post.  He says he will be under his control and won't be some modern trash.  So like hopefully they won't change all the characters genders, races(human races), and everything else.  

As much as I love B5 it did have lots of problems.  As a at the time 22 episode show, it had three types of them:

*Awesome Arc Episodes
*Lukewarm Arc Background Episodes
"Beyond Awful Trash

The Arc ones make B5 what it is, but the Arc background ones are a bit hit and miss.  Sometimes they are a decent show, but all two often they just waste time.

And the Beyond Awful shows...ugh, they are hard to watch even once.  On a typical rewatch, I just skip them.  The monster of Gray 17, Skip!  



One big thing though.......I hope JMS is wise enough to "upset" the show.  One of the best things from B5 is how things changed.......with "real life writing the plot".  To have the good president appoint Sinclar to B5, and then for Clark to "promote" him to Ambassador, and then bring in Sheridin that the Minbari hated, on his first day really was a nice touch.  And the Sinclar arc from commander to Ambassador to THE (Ranger) One to Valen really is a perfect arc for the character.  And it's one that would never of happened if the actor had not had to leave the show.  We would have gotten a lame Star Trek Reset Button -"Wow, cool relelation I will be Valen someday...well Reset Button...lets get back to the Station to be ready for next weeks adventure."

Having actors coming and going gave the show a much more real feel.  As opposed to the sad Reset Button in shows like Star Trek where nearly everyone just "stayed on the ship/station" every time.

And I even like the Kefier mini arc.  Sure they forced JMS to "add a space fighter pilot to your space show..pew pew", but JMS made it WORK.  His mini arc of looking for the Shadow ship was nice and fit into the show well.  


So, of the cast that is left.....who do you think should come back to guest star...and "as who?"

Bruce Boxlinter- I think the perfect part for him would be: President Clark.
Claudia Christian- General Hauge, or any high up such Earthforce person...or Morden
Bill Mummy- Any other minbari, maybe Naroon
Peter Jurask-  Wow, he'd be perfect as the Centari Emperor, ya think 
Jason Carter- any Ranger 'elder' or minbari 
Patrica Tillman- any psicop...or the Ironside character

And....for fun....I'd fill the Bester roll with...well, any Star Trek actor that would take the part....to carry on the tradation.  Maybe Garret Wang (aka Harry Kim), Jeri Ryan(Seven of Nine).....or...or  Wil Weaton.  I think Wil could do a great Bester.


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## Ryujin (Oct 4, 2021)

bloodtide said:


> I was a little unhappy with the idea of a reboot of B5.  But JMS is doing it and I think he made a good case for it in his post.  He says he will be under his control and won't be some modern trash.  So like hopefully they won't change all the characters genders, races(human races), and everything else.
> 
> As much as I love B5 it did have lots of problems.  As a at the time 22 episode show, it had three types of them:
> 
> ...



Of the ones that you listed, I think that Garrett Wang would likely be the best choice, but I think that they skewed a bit too old with that role. Koenig was 60 years old when he played it. Wang it already 52, which is on the high end of what I would like to see. Someone in their 40s would, i think, be a better fit.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned, that I think had a fair bit to do with B5's original excellence, is the use of Harlan Ellison as the "conceptual consultant." Mr. Ego, as I like to call him, contributed a great deal to the feel of the B5 universe. He's gone now, but I would hope that JMS would bring much of what he created to the new version.


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## Umbran (Oct 4, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> Wang it already 52, which is on the high end of what I would like to see. Someone in their 40s would, i think, be a better fit.




Unless the character is supposed to be an Action Hero, I don't see why he should be younger.



Ryujin said:


> One thing that hasn't been mentioned, that I think had a fair bit to do with B5's original excellence, is the use of Harlan Ellison as the "conceptual consultant." Mr. Ego, as I like to call him, contributed a great deal to the feel of the B5 universe. He's gone now, but I would hope that JMS would bring much of what he created to the new version.




JMS is legally the executor of the Ellison Estate.  You can probably expect that a goodly Ellison influence will be present in the work.


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## payn (Oct 4, 2021)

bloodtide said:


> So like hopefully they won't change all the characters genders, races(human races), and everything else.



Not even on the list of concerns for me.


bloodtide said:


> So, of the cast that is left.....who do you think should come back to guest star...and "as who?"
> 
> Bruce Boxlinter- I think the perfect part for him would be: President Clark.
> Claudia Christian- General Hauge, or any high up such Earthforce person...or Morden
> ...



I think Jeffery Combs would make a killer Bester, though he already played a telepath in B5. 

I dont think Wil Weaton is a very good actor. In his youth perhaps, but much of his guest appearances on SyFy stuff has been pretty wooden and doesnt feel all that natural. Not that hes ever up against televisions best, but his roles always feel weak and distract rather than add to the program.


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## Umbran (Oct 4, 2021)

payn said:


> I dont think Wil Weaton is a very good actor. In his youth perhaps, but much of his guest appearances on SyFy stuff has been pretty wooden and doesnt feel all that natural. Not that hes ever up against televisions best, but his roles always feel weak and distract rather than add to the program.




For a long time (and possibly to this day), Wheaton _hated_ acting - he was basically abused into the profession by his parents, and suffers from anxiety as a result.  That's part of why he's moved into more hosting and voice work these days.


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## Ryujin (Oct 4, 2021)

Umbran said:


> For a long time (and possibly to this day), Wheaton _hated_ acting - he was basically abused into the profession by his parents, and suffers from anxiety as a result.  That's part of why he's moved into more hosting and voice work these days.



Agreed. And given that his appearances have been quite frequently "as himself", I'd say the wooden delivery is likely on purpose.


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## Ryujin (Oct 4, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Unless the character is supposed to be an Action Hero, I don't see why he should be younger.
> 
> JMS is legally the executor of the Ellison Estate.  You can probably expect that a goodly Ellison influence will be present in the work.



I didn't know that he was the executor. That's very good news.

I'm not thinking action hero, though Bester had his moments in the original series. I'm thinking more up and coming middle/upper manager who wants the top chair. That role tends to skew as mature, but not old to me.


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## payn (Oct 4, 2021)

Umbran said:


> For a long time (and possibly to this day), Wheaton _hated_ acting - he was basically abused into the profession by his parents, and suffers from anxiety as a result.  That's part of why he's moved into more hosting and voice work these days.



I heard this. I assumed it was part of his awkwardness in some of his roles in the last 10-15 years. Im glad he found a niche that works for him.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Oct 5, 2021)

I’m not necessarily a fan of the “cameo” recastings, but the idea of Garret Wang as the new Bester?  _That_ has legs, IMHO.


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## Stalker0 (Oct 6, 2021)

bloodtide said:


> I was a little unhappy with the idea of a reboot of B5.  But JMS is doing it and I think he made a good case for it in his post.  He says he will be under his control and won't be some modern trash.  So like hopefully they won't change all the characters genders, races(human races), and everything else.
> 
> As much as I love B5 it did have lots of problems.  As a at the time 22 episode show, it had three types of them:
> 
> ...



Good old Gray 17. One of the best A plots with Marcus and Naroon, and one of the worst B plots with the weird cult. Hehe one of the episodes I always skip part way through


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Oct 6, 2021)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I’m not necessarily a fan of the “cameo” recastings, but the idea of Garret Wang as the new Bester?  _That_ has legs, IMHO.



Not sure why we get on to this particular Star Trek alumni, but considering who played Star Trek's Chekov in the Kelvin Timeline... It should obviously be Anton Yelchin.  He even died way too early, fits right into a B5 cast. 

Mustrum "Anton's fate always makes me particular sad - or angry - among the celebrity deaths, and I am just compensating with dark humor" Ridcully


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## Mallus (Oct 6, 2021)

Who should replace Ellison as creative consultant? Ty Franck?


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## Umbran (Oct 6, 2021)

Mallus said:


> Who should replace Ellison as creative consultant? Ty Franck?




I don't think that position will be needed this time around.

For the original, the overwhelming majority of the episodes were written by JMS himself (92 out of 110).  In that situation, a writer can use someone to chew over ideas with - thus a creative consultant.  But thirty years later, JMS is thirty years older.  I don't know that he'll be personally in for that same kind of grueling pace, and maybe won't be writing quite so much of the story himself this time.  That means having a writer's room - which means people to bounce ideas around with.

So, the question today may be - who will be in that writer's room?


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Oct 6, 2021)

It would be hard to replace Ellison, since many of the best great Sci-FiI writers similar to him also share with him the characteristic of being dead.

But I’m certain there are some young(er) guns out there up to the task. I wish I could suggest some, but most of my exposure to Ellison gas been through his work for TV & movies, not his actual writing.

If I were in his position and didn’t already have someone in mind, I’d start asking the editors for magazines like _Asimov _and _Fantasy & Science Fiction _ magazines, or anyone from the major genre awards committees for suggestions.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Oct 6, 2021)

As terrible as this is to bring up, I'm going to say it-

Babylon 5 was amazing. 

B5 Crusade was ... less amazing. But you could blame TBS (or was it TNT), right? 

The B5 Movies? Do we all remember those?

The first one was really, really good (In the Beginning). Then, they got progressively worse. By the time of _The Lost Tales_ in 2007, with Lochley and demonic possession, it was scraping the bottom of the barrel.


....I guess what I'm trying to say is that while we can be cautiously and guardedly optimistic, past evidence is not proof that this is going to work out like we want.


----------



## Willie the Duck (Oct 6, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> As terrible as this is to bring up, I'm going to say it-
> 
> Babylon 5 was amazing.
> 
> ...



I'm going to say even further -- _Babylon 5_ was amazing... when it was amazing. The other times... we usually gloss over them, or there's always an excuse -- actors stopped being available, network interference, the show was cancelled and then un-cancelled (of course there's no reason to believe that a reboot wouldn't have some or all of these things, or other similar issues). _Babylon 5_ is not unlike _Buffy the Vampire Slayer_ in that every time I run into a super-fan, their response is something akin to, _"I love that show, except for...[something different for each one, but always something]."_ It is a flawed gem, with some really great pieces and some low parts as well (just less worst than other genre shows, where the low point is 'that one super-racist first season episode' or 'that one where a supposed good guy does something unforgivable but it's kinda forgotten later'). Perhaps worst of all for a reboot is that some of the most universally acclaimed parts of the original are the cast chemistry, individual actor talent, and specific moments or speeches (all things that could show up in a new project, but there's no specific reason to think so simply because it is nu-B5). Much like Firefly, it isn't the premise or the plot that was earth-shakingly brilliant, it was the particulars of the execution, which is a lot harder to replicate in a reboot (or at the very least, are not inherent to the property).

More power to JMS in getting this off the ground. I hope it does well. If it doesn't, it will not for me detract from the mostly-brilliant series he gave us in the 90s. I will always have that for which to thank him.


----------



## Stalker0 (Oct 6, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> The B5 Movies? Do we all remember those?



In the Beginning was great. Honestly thirdspace was decent, I really loved the alien ships that had shields! Showed just how powerful that is, even if the shields themselves could only take 1 hit in most cases.

The rest.....yeah pretty bad.


----------



## payn (Oct 6, 2021)

I really like Tony Curran in all the parts i've seen him in. I think he could fit into a nu-B5 somewhere.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Oct 6, 2021)

Never got to see but maybe one of the movies.

_Crusade_ suffered for a variety of reasons, not the least of which was it commonly got shuffled around the broadcast schedule, at least in our market. Several times I tuned in, only to find a repeat…and then later discovered the new episode was being broadcast later.

I thought it had real potential, but unlike B5 and other shows, wasn’t given time to really find its lace.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Oct 6, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> In the Beginning was great. Honestly thirdspace was decent, I really loved the alien ships that had shields! Showed just how powerful that is, even if the shields themselves could only take 1 hit in most cases.
> 
> The rest.....yeah pretty bad.




In the Beginning ... I remember the first time seeing they Minbari War sequence and getting chills.

The rest ... I mean, Thirdspace was mediocre, and it was definitely the best one by far!


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Oct 6, 2021)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Never got to see but maybe one of the movies.
> 
> _Crusade_ suffered for a variety of reasons, *not the least of which was it commonly got shuffled around the broadcast schedule, at least in our market. Several times I tuned in, only to find a repeat…and then later discovered the new episode was being broadcast later.*




So, basically, JMS was just trying to re-create the magic of trying to watch the first four seasons of B5 on the PTEN Network!


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Oct 6, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> So, basically, JMS was just trying to re-create the magic of trying to watch the first four seasons of B5 on the PTEN Network!



Heh!  

i don’t think he had any say in it.  As I recall, it got booted from its time slot because of sporting events.  The reruns were being used as filler, and the entire new episodes were aired latenight.


----------



## Mallus (Oct 6, 2021)

Umbran said:


> So, the question today may be - who will be in that writer's room?



Now that's a good question. I'm probably most excited over the prospect of there being a strong writers room this go round. Instead of JMS taking on the Herculean task of writing most of the episodes. As much as I admire that feat, I really feel it weakened the show.


----------



## Marc_C (Oct 6, 2021)

Mallus said:


> Now that's a good question. I'm probably most excited over the prospect of there being a strong writers room this go round. Instead of JMS taking on the Herculean task of writing most of the episodes. As much as I admire that feat, I really feel it weakened the show.



I seem to recall JMS admitted, after the series ended, that was a mistake he wouldn't repeat.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Oct 7, 2021)

People to help him in the writer's room - maybe someone like Ira Behr or Ron Moore? But I am not sure they'd be available, I think they have their own projects. But maybe they can recommend people..


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Oct 7, 2021)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> People to help him in the writer's room - maybe someone like Ira Behr or Ron Moore? But I am not sure they'd be available, I think they have their own projects. But maybe they can recommend people..




Ron Moore is .... oh boy ... working on the Extended Disney Theme Park Ride TV Universe for Dinsey+.


So, there's that.


----------



## Mallus (Oct 7, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Ron Moore is .... oh boy ... working on the Extended Disney Theme Park Ride TV Universe for Dinsey+.
> 
> 
> So, there's that.



The what now? I knew he wasn't showrunning For All Mankind anymore for Apple. Which made me sad, because those first 2 seasons may be the best work he's done. But what fresh hell is this?


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Oct 7, 2021)

Mallus said:


> The what now? I knew he wasn't showrunning For All Mankind anymore for Apple. Which made me sad, because those first 2 seasons may be the best work he's done. But what fresh hell is this?












						Ronald D. Moore Developing Magic Kingdom TV Universe Projects At Disney+
					

For All Mankind executive producer Ron Moore is bringing the Magic Kingdom Universe to Disney+. Moore is developing multiple TV projects at the streaming service which will be set at Disney’s…




					deadline.com
				





_Moore is developing multiple TV projects at the streaming service which will be set at Disney’s Magic Kingdom, sources close to the situation tell Deadline. ...Moore also is said to be working in close collaboration with the Disney Imagineering Team on other projects that would be the first part of a universe similar to Marvel but set in the Magic Kingdom. Moore would oversee the entire franchise. _


----------



## Neko Princex (Nov 4, 2021)

I really enjoyed Babylon 5. I heard that the new series it might be a sequel to the original, but not sure how accurate that is. Regardless, I will check out the new season/series.


----------



## Umbran (Nov 4, 2021)

Neko Princess said:


> I really enjoyed Babylon 5. I heard that the new series it might be a sequel to the original, but not sure how accurate that is.




The creator, J. Michael Straczynski, is very active on twitter, and he's made it pretty clear that it is _not_ a sequel, but a reboot.  But don't expect a very exact replica - he's effectively tossing the themes, plot elements, and all of the original into a blender, and making something new out of it.


----------



## Staffan (Nov 4, 2021)

Mallus said:


> Now that's a good question. I'm probably most excited over the prospect of there being a strong writers room this go round. Instead of JMS taking on the Herculean task of writing most of the episodes. As much as I admire that feat, I really feel it weakened the show.



Judging by JMS's Twitter, he doesn't seem to be much for writer's rooms. His preference would seem to be assigning things episode by episode rather than any sort of collaborative structure.


----------



## Umbran (Nov 4, 2021)

Staffan said:


> Judging by JMS's Twitter, he doesn't seem to be much for writer's rooms. His preference would seem to be assigning things episode by episode rather than any sort of collaborative structure.




Oh, he'll need some collaborative structure.  He may not use the typical writer's room form, with half a dozen people writing each script.  But he may have half a dozen people each writing one scrpit, and they will _NEED_ to collaborate for them to come out with a consistent  story - Episode 3 is going to need to know what happens in Episode 1, and may need to ask for things to be put into Episode 1 for foreshadowing, and so on.


----------



## Staffan (Nov 4, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Oh, he'll need some collaborative structure.  He may not use the typical writer's room form, with half a dozen people writing each script.  But he may have half a dozen people each writing one scrpit, and they will _NEED_ to collaborate for them to come out with a consistent  story - Episode 3 is going to need to know what happens in Episode 1, and may need to ask for things to be put into Episode 1 for foreshadowing, and so on.



My understanding is that the way this was handled in the original, for the first two seasons, was that JMS planned out the basic plot of each episode and what elements of the overarching story needed to go where, and then let other writers write those episodes he didn't do himself without too much interference.


----------



## Umbran (Nov 4, 2021)

Staffan said:


> My understanding is that the way this was handled in the original, for the first two seasons, was that JMS planned out the basic plot of each episode and what elements of the overarching story needed to go where, and then let other writers write those episodes he didn't do himself without too much interference.




JMS wrote 92 of the 110 episodes in the original series.  So, what few episodes others wrote were effectively only interacting with JMS' writing.  If he's not taking on the Herculean effort again, outline or not, that minimal coordination won't cut it.


----------



## Staffan (Nov 4, 2021)

Umbran said:


> JMS wrote 92 of the 110 episodes in the original series.  So, what few episodes others wrote were effectively only interacting with JMS' writing.  If he's not taking on the Herculean effort again, outline or not, that minimal coordination won't cut it.



We'll see. JMS does not strike me as someone who plays all that well with others, particularly not on Babylon 5 which is his baby. He has on occasion expressed dismissal of the whole concept of writer's rooms.

It should also be noted that the first two seasons had a story editor, Lawrence G. DiTillio, whose job it was to keep other writers in tune with the overall arc.


----------



## cmad1977 (Nov 4, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Ron Moore is .... oh boy ... working on the Extended Disney Theme Park Ride TV Universe for Dinsey+.
> 
> 
> So, there's that.




Not sure who the guy is but working with Disney Imagineering is a no joke gig for a creative.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Nov 4, 2021)

cmad1977 said:


> Not sure who the guy is but working with Disney Imagineering is a no joke gig for a creative.




Eh, don't think you understand. It's not Imagineering.

Ron Moore (Ronald D. Moore) is a noted TV writer and showrunner. Previous notable credits in TV include:

Star Trek (TNG, DS9).
BSG (reboot). <- This is probably what he's most famous for. 
Outlander.
For All Mankind.

Anyway, he was lured from his position from For All Mankind to be the Kevin Feige of a Disney+ initiative to have a shared, TV universe of shows based on their theme park rides.


----------



## nevin (Nov 4, 2021)

The problem for me is Im done with reboots.  Especially for shows I liked the first time.  Im not watching any more reboots.   I would love to see new stories, even a continouation of crusade.


----------



## cmad1977 (Nov 4, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Eh, don't think you understand. It's not Imagineering.
> 
> Ron Moore (Ronald D. Moore) is a noted TV writer and showrunner. Previous notable credits in TV include:
> 
> ...




Which sounds goofy(haha)… but it’s not a small job.


----------



## cmad1977 (Nov 4, 2021)

If the casting makes people say things like 
“But why is Sinclair a GURL??” I’ll watch for sure. Those people always have bad taste.


----------



## payn (Nov 4, 2021)

nevin said:


> The problem for me is Im done with reboots.  Especially for shows I liked the first time.  Im not watching any more reboots.   I would love to see new stories, even a continouation of crusade.



There can be _new_ in reboots. I think the Battlestar Galactica offered a lot more than the original and was pretty decent for a time. It really depends on the context of the work. Though, I do understand the reboot fatigue, im just not going to instantly write them off.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Nov 4, 2021)

cmad1977 said:


> Which sounds goofy(haha)… but it’s not a small job.




It's not a small job! I can't imagine the number of hours it take to create a cross-platform synergy that not only monetizes a streaming series of _The Enchanted Tiki Room_, but places it within the same universe as _Carousel of Progress _and _It's a Small World_!


----------



## Umbran (Nov 4, 2021)

Staffan said:


> It should also be noted that the first two seasons had a story editor, Lawrence G. DiTillio, whose job it was to keep other writers in tune with the overall arc.




That sounds entirely consistent with what I've said.  He'll need _some_ form of collaboration to go on if he wants to succeed.  I didn't specify what the nature of it will be, just that it has to exist.

Note that he's collaborated heavily since the original B5 was made - _Sense8_ being a solid example. We can allow that the man may have grown or changed somewhat, no?


----------



## Ryujin (Nov 4, 2021)

nevin said:


> The problem for me is Im done with reboots.  Especially for shows I liked the first time.  Im not watching any more reboots.   I would love to see new stories, even a continouation of crusade.



I'm the same, but for the rare exception. I was in for the B5 reboot and, as Babylon 5 didn't really get a fair shake the first time around, I'll give it a chance too.


----------



## ART! (Nov 4, 2021)

In its day, B5 was at the forefront of the new wave of long-term story-arc tv. I wonder if JMS will be running with that, or doing something different - although I don't know what that would be. Maybe binge-length (2-4 episodes?) sub-arcs?


----------



## Janx (Nov 4, 2021)

Staffan said:


> We'll see. JMS does not strike me as someone who plays all that well with others, particularly not on Babylon 5 which is his baby. He has on occasion expressed dismissal of the whole concept of writer's rooms.
> 
> It should also be noted that the first two seasons had a story editor, Lawrence G. DiTillio, whose job it was to keep other writers in tune with the overall arc.



whom he fired.  Larry was responsible for incorporating a lot of the little detail the actors brought that filled in the characters.  Like the bit of Vir and Londo singing opera because Stephen Furst wanted to sing.


----------



## Umbran (Nov 4, 2021)

nevin said:


> I would love to see new stories, even a continouation of crusade.




To hear JMS speak of it, this is _NOT_ going to be a simple repeat of the same story.  He knows full well that nobody is going to, say, do a better job of the G'Kar and Londo relationship than Katsulas and Jurasik.  So, he's not going to try to just repeat that.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Nov 4, 2021)

Umbran said:


> To hear JMS speak of it, this is _NOT_ going to be a simple repeat of the same story.  He knows full well that nobody is going to, say, do a better job of the G'Kar and Londo relationship than Katsulas and Jurasik.  So, he's not going to try to just repeat that.




This time ....



Spoiler: For the original B5



Kosh doesn't die.


----------



## Ryujin (Nov 4, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> This time ....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This time... 



Spoiler



... the Vorlons are the bad guys, not merely indifferent supporters of Order.


----------



## MarkB (Nov 5, 2021)

ART! said:


> In its day, B5 was at the forefront of the new wave of long-term story-arc tv. I wonder if JMS will be running with that, or doing something different - although I don't know what that would be. Maybe binge-length (2-4 episodes?) sub-arcs?



These days we have the coherent story arcs, but series tend to be shorter than they were back in the network-television days of the original series. Virtual sets and virtual characters have come a long way, so maybe we'll see the story roam further afield more often than the original did, really delving into some of the alien cultures and their worlds.


----------



## Tun Kai Poh (Nov 5, 2021)

Staffan said:


> It should also be noted that the first two seasons had a story editor, Lawrence G. DiTillio, whose job it was to keep other writers in tune with the overall arc.



DiTillio also wrote the famous _Masks of Nyarlathotep_ for Call of Cthulhu, how's that for an RPG connection?


----------



## payn (Nov 5, 2021)

MarkB said:


> These days we have the coherent story arcs, but series tend to be shorter than they were back in the network-television days of the original series. Virtual sets and virtual characters have come a long way, so maybe we'll see the story roam further afield more often than the original did, really delving into some of the alien cultures and their worlds.



I think CW typically goes 16 or so episodes of its shows a season doesnt it?


----------



## Stalker0 (Nov 5, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> This time...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But…



Spoiler



the Vorlons were the bad guys, just as bad as the shadows. That was the whole point!


----------



## nevin (Nov 5, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> But…
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The vorlons werent bad, they were just so advanced  that no one ever really understood what they were doing other than oppose the shadows.  I think the point was mankind was about the equivilant of animals to them. When rangers pick up a bear  and move him 400 miles away so hell leave campers alone do think the bear realizes they did it for its own good?


----------



## nevin (Nov 5, 2021)

Umbran said:


> To hear JMS speak of it, this is _NOT_ going to be a simple repeat of the same story.  He knows full well that nobody is going to, say, do a better job of the G'Kar and Londo relationship than Katsulas and Jurasik.  So, he's not going to try to just repeat that.



Then why a reboot?  If its a different story then make it a different story.


----------



## MarkB (Nov 5, 2021)

nevin said:


> The vorlons werent bad, they were just so advanced  that no one ever really understood what they were doing other than oppose the shadows.  I think the point was mankind was about the equivilant of animals to them. When rangers pick up a bear  and move him 400 miles away so hell leave campers alone do think the bear realizes they did it for its own good?



What about when they wipe out the bear and all his friends and family because he doesn't share their philosophical viewpoint?


----------



## ART! (Nov 5, 2021)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Yes, they said that once, but did make course corrections at warp speed in other episodes. VOY is a beloved show, but it wasn't consistent.



Did JMS even use the word _reboot_? It sounds more like a _re-imagining_.


----------



## Ryujin (Nov 5, 2021)

nevin said:


> Then why a reboot?  If its a different story then make it a different story.



I would say because the conceit of the series is that Babylon 5 is the "last, best hope for peace." It's a galactic United Nations. If you don't have that as a starting point, then you have a much different show.


----------



## Dausuul (Nov 5, 2021)

nevin said:


> The vorlons werent bad, they were just so advanced  that no one ever really understood what they were doing other than oppose the shadows.  I think the point was mankind was about the equivilant of animals to them. When rangers pick up a bear  and move him 400 miles away so hell leave campers alone do think the bear realizes they did it for its own good?



The Vorlons used planet-killers on inhabited worlds. They were on the cusp of annihilating Centauri Prime, with three billion inhabitants, before being called away to help their other fleet that had run into trouble annihilating a world with _six_ billion inhabitants.

They were absolutely bad.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 5, 2021)

cmad1977 said:


> If the casting makes people say things like
> “But why is Sinclair a GURL??” I’ll watch for sure. Those people always have bad taste.



Not always.  Some people want under-represented demographics to have their own original well-written characters, not re-imagined leftovers.


----------



## Zardnaar (Nov 5, 2021)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Not always.  Some people want under-represented demographics to have their own original well-written characters, not re-imagined leftovers.




 That would require originality and creativity. Short supply in Hollywood now.


----------



## Dausuul (Nov 5, 2021)

Zardnaar said:


> That would require originality and creativity. Short supply in Hollywood now.



When the same guy who created B5 in the first place is also in charge of the reboot, I don't know that this argument really holds water.

Now, granted, some writers do seem to run out of originality and creativity and start just rehashing the same material after a while. But as far as I can tell, this has yet to happen to JMS.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 6, 2021)

Dausuul said:


> When the same guy who created B5 in the first place is also in charge of the reboot, I don't know that this argument really holds water.
> 
> Now, granted, some writers do seem to run out of originality and creativity and start just rehashing the same material after a while. But as far as I can tell, this has yet to happen to JMS.



As much as I like JMS’s writing, the fact that this is a _reboot_ does kinda beg the question.


----------



## Zardnaar (Nov 6, 2021)

Dausuul said:


> When the same guy who created B5 in the first place is also in charge of the reboot, I don't know that this argument really holds water.
> 
> Now, granted, some writers do seem to run out of originality and creativity and start just rehashing the same material after a while. But as far as I can tell, this has yet to happen to JMS.




 Because of who it is benefit of the doubt. 

 Best case scenario we end up with Kobra Kai scenario. Decent scenario BSG, worst case take your pick.

 Might be set before or after the events in B5 involve a different set of actors or be an outright reboot.


----------



## Mallus (Nov 6, 2021)

Creativity isn’t in short supply.

Risk-tolerance is. Especially when it comes to pricey genre entertainment.

Which shouldn’t really surprise people because as much as folks complain about the  lack of creativity in Hollywood, they reward the familiar at the box office.

That’s why we’ve had a tradition of remakes since the silent film era.

(and that’s not so bad… you want only one Hamlet?)


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Nov 6, 2021)

Zardnaar said:


> Because of who it is benefit of the doubt.
> 
> Best case scenario we end up with Kobra Kai scenario. Decent scenario BSG, worst case take your pick.
> 
> Might be set before or after the events in B5 involve a different set of actors or be an outright reboot.




What are you talking about?

It’s on the CW! Best case scenario?
Sexy G’Kar!

Worst case?
Sexy Londo!

Either way, I can’t wait for the alien sexy!


----------



## Zardnaar (Nov 6, 2021)

Mallus said:


> Creativity isn’t in short supply.
> 
> Risk-tolerance is. Especially when it comes to pricey genre entertainment.
> 
> ...




 Point ultimately it's on the consumer eg us.


----------



## Ryujin (Nov 6, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> What are you talking about?
> 
> It’s on the CW! Best case scenario?
> Sexy G’Kar!
> ...



The drawback is that B5 will be a high school, that's populated by 25 year old students.


----------



## Zardnaar (Nov 6, 2021)

Showrunners D&D (ducks).


----------



## Staffan (Nov 6, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> What are you talking about?
> 
> It’s on the CW! Best case scenario?
> Sexy G’Kar!



G'Kar was always sexy.

(Apparently, one of the things Andreas Katsulas enjoyed about the role was that the character felt sexy, and he generally didn't get to play that.)


Snarf Zagyg said:


> Worst case?
> Sexy Londo!



But in purple, he is stunning.


----------



## Umbran (Nov 6, 2021)

nevin said:


> Then why a reboot?  If its a different story then make it a different story.




You realize that JMS is not the only person involved in the choice of what TV shows get made, yes?

If the studio/network offers him the job of making a B5 reboot, but not other content... well, then he takes the B5 reboot.


----------



## Umbran (Nov 6, 2021)

Dausuul said:


> The Vorlons used planet-killers on inhabited worlds. They were on the cusp of annihilating Centauri Prime, with three billion inhabitants, before being called away to help their other fleet that had run into trouble annihilating a world with _six_ billion inhabitants.
> 
> They were absolutely bad.




The Vorlons used planet-killers on inhabited worlds that housed Shadow forces.

In our world, when be bomb an enemy, we spend exactly zero thought on the impact on the local wildlife.


----------



## Ryujin (Nov 6, 2021)

Umbran said:


> The Vorlons used planet-killers on inhabited worlds that housed Shadow forces.
> 
> In our world, when be bomb an enemy, we spend exactly zero thought on the impact on the local wildlife.



And in our world even prescision munitions cause collateral damage. I can just hear a Vorlon media advisor saying, "...though we avoided damage to the neighbouring planets."


----------



## Baron Opal II (Nov 6, 2021)

How did replacing actors change the show? While needing to replace Michael O'Hare was a big deal, I'm not sure that any other replacements "changed the timeline" much, as it were.

There was Sinclair / Sheridan, Lyta / Talia (?) - the telepaths, G'Kar's assistant. Any others?


----------



## Dausuul (Nov 6, 2021)

Umbran said:


> The Vorlons used planet-killers on inhabited worlds that housed Shadow forces.
> 
> In our world, when be bomb an enemy, we spend exactly zero thought on the impact on the local wildlife.



Quite true. The Vorlons were a technologically superior culture committing genocide against less-advanced cultures, who regarded their victims as mere animals who got in the way*.

I'm not clear how this contradicts my assertion that the Vorlons were bad.

*Except they didn't, really. The whole point of the Vorlon-Shadow storyline was that they were the self-appointed stewards of the younger races, who had run amok and were trying to purge each other's influence over those younger races. So clearly they knew on some level that their victims were more than animals.


----------



## Zardnaar (Nov 6, 2021)

I've been playing Stellaris. You have fallen empires that "wake up". Their tech is yards ahead of the players for 100-150 years. 

 They have colossus (planet killers) and two of them can trigger a war in heaven.

 If you win you get the "get out of my galaxy" line from B5. The fallen empires are essentially the Vorlons/shadow.


----------



## Umbran (Nov 7, 2021)

Baron Opal II said:


> There was Sinclair / Sheridan, Lyta / Talia (?) - the telepaths, G'Kar's assistant. Any others?



Ivonova left after Season 4, to be replaced by Captain Lochley in Season 5.


----------



## Umbran (Nov 7, 2021)

Dausuul said:


> I'm not clear how this contradicts my assertion that the Vorlons were bad.




Bad for the survival of those younger species around them?  Sure.  But, if we are given the existence of creatures like the Vorlons, we should also take as a possibility that there's perspectives of morality rather beyond our own, too.  



Dausuul said:


> So clearly they knew on some level that their victims were more than animals.




Not necessarily.  The younger races could have been "animals with potential" to them. 

Technically, their struggle was really over programs of development.  The Vorlons and the Shadows were farmers.  We were the livestock...


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## Zardnaar (Nov 7, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Bad for the survival of those younger species around them?  Sure.  But, if we are given the existence of creatures like the Vorlons, we should also take as a possibility that there's perspectives of morality rather beyond our own, too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




 With how we treat animals/each other probably shouldn't get to moralistic if a sufficiently advanced races sees us as the animals.


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## Dausuul (Nov 7, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Bad for the survival of those younger species around them?  Sure.  But, if we are given the existence of creatures like the Vorlons, we should also take as a possibility that there's perspectives of morality rather beyond our own, too.



I really did not think "genocide is bad" would be a controversial point.

At this point I'm just gonna refer y'all to Sheridan and Delenn in "Into the Fire" and endorse every word _they_ said to the Vorlons and the Shadows.



Zardnaar said:


> With how we treat animals/each other probably shouldn't get to moralistic if a sufficiently advanced races sees us as the animals.



Human beings have done plenty of awful things. There are many ways we have behaved, and often still do behave, like Vorlons and Shadows on our more limited scale; after all, one of the functions of science fiction is to hold up a mirror. None of us can claim total innocence.

But that doesn't mean we have to just shrug and say, "Eh, that's how it goes, let's not bicker and argue about who exterminated who."


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## Staffan (Nov 7, 2021)

Baron Opal II said:


> How did replacing actors change the show? While needing to replace Michael O'Hare was a big deal, I'm not sure that any other replacements "changed the timeline" much, as it were.
> 
> There was Sinclair / Sheridan, Lyta / Talia (?) - the telepaths, G'Kar's assistant. Any others?



There were a few replacements between the pilot and the main series. Dr Kyle was replaced by Dr Franklin and Lyta Alexander by Talia Winters (which coincidentally meant that the only two people who had actually seen a Vorlon were out). In addition, the XO Laurel Takashima was replaced by Susan Ivanova. These things required some rejiggering of various plot points and roles.



Spoiler



I think Takashima was originally supposed to have the Sleeper agent role that ended up being Talia Winters' job. And because Alexander was out, they couldn't explain the resident telepath gaining more power via Vorlon contact, and instead used the Ironheart plot from Mind War.


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## Umbran (Nov 7, 2021)

Dausuul said:


> I really did not think "genocide is bad" would be a controversial point.




Umbran looks at the continent of Africa, at the plight of gorillas and chimpanzees.  He looks at Southeast Asia, and the situation of orangutans.

Maybe your or my thoughts on the matter are not what we'd call universal?  Maybe, most of the time, the plight of lesser creatures really isn't one of our first thoughts?  Why, then, should it be a first thought of other people with comprehension of the workings of the Universe as far beyond ours as our comprehension is from that of chimpanzees?

There is also a "people who live in glass houses should not throw stones" element to this.  



Dausuul said:


> But that doesn't mean we have to just shrug and say, "Eh, that's how it goes, let's not bicker and argue about who exterminated who."




Not a single one of us has said that, and that is not the only logical conclusion from what has been said.  So... take away the strawman, please, as it is not useful here.


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## Dausuul (Nov 7, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Umbran looks at the continent of Africa, at the plight of gorillas and chimpanzees.  He looks at Southeast Asia, and the situation of orangutans.
> 
> Maybe your or my thoughts on the matter are not what we'd call universal?  Maybe, most of the time, the plight of lesser creatures really isn't one of our first thoughts?  Why, then, should it be a first thought of other people with comprehension of the workings of the Universe as far beyond ours as our comprehension is from that of chimpanzees?



I don't understand your position here.

It sure doesn't _seem _as if you think what we are doing to gorillas and chimpanzees and orangutans is okay. If we can say it's bad for us to do it to other species, why must we shy away from saying it's bad for Vorlons to do it to us? Shouldn't the argument go the other way: It's bad for the Vorlons to do it to us and therefore it's bad for us to do it to gorillas?



Umbran said:


> There is also a "people who live in glass houses should not throw stones" element to this.



To say that the Vorlons are flipping the script on us--showing us what we do to other species and how terrible it is--does not preclude saying that the Vorlons are bad. Quite the contrary! It _relies_ on saying that the Vorlons are bad. That is the first step in an argument which then proceeds to "You see that Vorlons are bad. Now look in the mirror_--we are the Vorlons and we need to change._"

At this point, one can argue whether the analogy holds or not, and to what extent. But if you can't say the Vorlons are bad in the first place... well, then, what difference does it make if we see them in the mirror?


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## Umbran (Nov 7, 2021)

Dausuul said:


> It sure doesn't _seem _as if you think what we are doing to gorillas and chimpanzees and orangutans is okay.




What _I_ personally think isn't the issue.  Rather like what the original Kosh might have thought isn't the issue.

The empirical evidence is that humans, as a whole, don't have a big problem with the situation.


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## nevin (Nov 8, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Bad for the survival of those younger species around them?  Sure.  But, if we are given the existence of creatures like the Vorlons, we should also take as a possibility that there's perspectives of morality rather beyond our own, too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No the Vorlons offered knowledge and education but left the choice up to thise they dealt with.  The shadows took control of civilizations and modified them with no choice.   So the analogy is mostly sound if you consider the Vorlons being in charge of the nature reserve.


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## Staffan (Nov 8, 2021)

nevin said:


> No the Vorlons offered knowledge and education but left the choice up to thise they dealt with.  The shadows took control of civilizations and modified them with no choice.   So the analogy is mostly sound if you consider the Vorlons being in charge of the nature reserve.



Did they? There's absolutely no indication that the Vorlons offered anyone any choice about telepathy, or whatever manipulation was used to make people see them as angelic beings. And while Kosh was a big softie, Kosh2 (I can't recall if the name Ulkesh is ever on screen or if it's apocryphal) seemed pretty clear about expecting obedience, not cooperation.


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## MarkB (Nov 8, 2021)

nevin said:


> No the Vorlons offered knowledge and education but left the choice up to thise they dealt with.  The shadows took control of civilizations and modified them with no choice.   So the analogy is mostly sound if you consider the Vorlons being in charge of the nature reserve.



They weren't in charge. The Vorlons and the Shadows were the equivalent of two groups of scientists running competing behavioural research projects, and then accusing each other (rightly) of contaminating the control group, before escalating to trying to sabotage each others' work by destroying their subjects. All with little or no consideration of those subjects' wellbeing.


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## Ryujin (Nov 8, 2021)

nevin said:


> No the Vorlons offered knowledge and education but left the choice up to thise they dealt with.  The shadows took control of civilizations and modified them with no choice.   So the analogy is mostly sound if you consider the Vorlons being in charge of the nature reserve.



The Shadows made Faustian bargains with individuals, in order to foster the chaos that they felt made for stronger species. The Vorlons manipulated via religious iconography, at least in the way that they appeared to the lesser races. That wasn't really a choice. Neither side coould really be seen as letting the lesser races make informed decisions. I tend to think of the Vorlons being "more good", overall, simply because their end goals fostered order and promoted group harmony. Then again there's a reason why I generally play Lawful Neutral characters in D&D.


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## Umbran (Nov 8, 2021)

Staffan said:


> , Kosh2 (I can't recall if the name Ulkesh is ever on screen or if it's apocryphal)




I'm in a middle of a rewatch, and Sheriden _specifically asks_ nuKosh what they should be called.  Their reply was, "We are _all_ Kosh."


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## Snarf Zagyg (Nov 8, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> The Shadows made Faustian bargains with individuals, in order to foster the chaos that they felt made for stronger species. The Vorlons manipulated via religious iconography, at least in the way that they appeared to the lesser races. That wasn't really a choice. Neither side coould really be seen as letting the lesser races make informed decisions. I tend to think of the Vorlons being "more good", overall, simply because their end goals fostered order and promoted group harmony. Then again there's a reason why I generally play Lawful Neutral characters in D&D.




Shadows! Frag me. I mean, say what you like about the tenets of the Vorlons, Ryujin, at least it's an ethos.


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## Mallus (Nov 8, 2021)

The Vorlons and the Shadows were _shamed_ out of the galaxy. So from their own perspectives, they had both gone wrong, done wrong.


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## nevin (Nov 12, 2021)

Staffan said:


> Did they? There's absolutely no indication that the Vorlons offered anyone any choice about telepathy, or whatever manipulation was used to make people see them as angelic beings. And while Kosh was a big softie, Kosh2 (I can't recall if the name Ulkesh is ever on screen or if it's apocryphal) seemed pretty clear about expecting obedience, not cooperation.



From straczynski himself, "I picked Babylon for the station, because a lot of what happens  in the Babylon5 story comes out of the BBylonian Creation myth, wich says that the universe was born out of the conflict between order and Chaos. "  Vorlons were the Ancient race for order and the Shadows were chaos.  He's also admitted that the Shadows are similar to the Nazgul  and strike a deep primal fear in anyone who sees them


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## J.Quondam (Nov 12, 2021)

nevin said:


> He's also admitted that the Shadows are similar to the Nazgul and strike a deep primal fear in anyone who sees them



Brings to mind that first time I saw a Shadow ship. 
Yeah, I think he did a good job with them.


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## Staffan (Nov 12, 2021)

nevin said:


> From straczynski himself, "I picked Babylon for the station, because a lot of what happens  in the Babylon5 story comes out of the BBylonian Creation myth, wich says that the universe was born out of the conflict between order and Chaos. "  Vorlons were the Ancient race for order and the Shadows were chaos.  He's also admitted that the Shadows are similar to the Nazgul  and strike a deep primal fear in anyone who sees them



Yes, but the whole point of the show is that neither Order nor Chaos is *good*. The Vorlons and Shadows don't *care* about the younger species, they just want the other one to acknowledge that their way is better. And that's why the *other* First Ones think they're both bad – they were supposed to guide the younger species and present them with options, but instead they became embroiled in a cold war with one another, and using the ones they were supposed to guide to wage proxy wars.

The Vorlons embedded genes for telepathy in many species, to make them able to fight the Shadows. They also indoctrinated them so that they'd see Vorlons as holy creatures, in order to make them easier to manipulate. One example is how Kosh uses telepathy and religious iconography to manipulate G'Kar into abandoning his vendetta against the Centauri and instead turn his still considerable resources toward aiding Sheridan's and Delenn's alliance.


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## ART! (Feb 25, 2022)

A bit of an update over at Dark Horizons, via The Mary Sue and TV Line):
and TV Line: 

"While the reboot did not get a pilot order this winter, The CW’s CEO Mark Pedowitz reportedly believes in the project enough to ‘roll’ it to next year which will keep it in active development, says Straczynski on his Patreon"


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## darjr (Feb 25, 2022)

This series should have been my jam. But I kept bouncing off of it.

I’ll try again.


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## eyeheartawk (Feb 25, 2022)

I mean, if you know anything about B5's production history who honestly thought it would be this easy?


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## Ryujin (Feb 25, 2022)

Network change. Constant time slot change. It's a wonder that anyone managed to follow the original run.


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## ART! (Feb 25, 2022)

darjr said:


> This series should have been my jam. But I kept bouncing off of it.
> 
> I’ll try again.



The show had a bit of a bumpy start, and it's kind of wonky, but over the long-term it's worth watching.


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