# Future-Edition Brainstorming: A Simplified Cosmology (+)



## Levistus's_Leviathan (Jan 9, 2022)

I've made my dislike of the Great Wheel Cosmology and the planes that are contained in it pretty clear on this site, and one of my biggest gripes with it is that it's the base cosmology of D&D 5e, and is super over-complicated and not friendly to new players who want to learn about it. I've had this experience as someone that joined the hobby and started DMing (and worldbuilding) a few years after D&D 5e came out, and I've had the experience repeat as I've brought more people to the hobby that wanted to learn about the setting's cosmology. Even Eberron (which is probably my favorite official D&D 5e setting), whose cosmology is much simpler than the Great Wheel, has this issue, with thirteen non-Material planes of existence that players and DMs have to keep track of. One thing that I had a player tell me about the cosmologies in D&D worlds that really stuck was "wow, D&D's cosmology is, like, really complicated. In most fantasy or mythology stories that I've read, there's normally just one or two other worlds or planes of existence that the characters can travel to". And, yeah, they were right. The most complicated cosmology from a mythology that comes to mind is Norse Mythology, which had 9 worlds, less than basically all main D&D cosmologies (Great Wheel, Eberron, World Axis, and even D&D's World Tree cosmology). And that's not even counting the different layers for each of the planes of existence in each of these cosmologies.

D&D's main cosmologies aren't user-friendly, especially not for new/inexperienced players. And while I think that the more complicated cosmologies should exist for the people that do like them, I do think that having a more simplified cosmology for the game's "base" setting (or at least a new D&D setting that might assume the place of base setting in future editions) would greatly benefit the hobby.

Now, onto what I would include in a simplified cosmology.

First, I would condense most of the Upper Planes into one "Heaven" plane. It could be called basically anything, from just "Heaven", to "Mount Celestia", or "Elysium", but for now we'll just call it "Heaven". I don't like how the Great Wheel will separate the afterlives of even good creatures from each other (so family members will be split up if they're of different good alignments), and think that one heaven could just fit all. It could have different layers (possibly one for each type of good alignment; chaotic, neutral, and lawful, but I'd prefer if the sub-divisions of the plane were more like home-realms for Angels, Archons, and Couatls, or something like that, but perhaps both of those could be used in the same setting). The plane is pretty simple; it would be Heaven. A paradise. A place that you probably never want to leave if you come here, with amazing weather, endless food and drink (maybe Nectar and Ambrosia), friendly people, eternal celestial servants, and so on. The Gods might live here if this cosmology has explicitly real gods and they're stated to live in places that the setting's characters can access, but this isn't necessary (maybe take a note from Exandria and have the Gods be real and present, but they can't journey to or interfere with the mortal plane). Either way, Celestial Paragons (Archangels, super powerful Couatls, possibly called Quetzalcouatls, and Head Archons) would be in charge of running most of the business on the plane, and would be what Celestial-Patron Warlocks would make pacts with.

Second, I would also condense most of the Lower Planes into one "Hell" plane. Again, the name doesn't really matter, it could be "Hades", "Hel(l)", "the Abyss/Nine Hells/Acheron/Pandemonium", or something like that, but it would be Hell, the home plane of Fiends and where people who do evil get sent when they die. I personally would probably use my previous idea of it having 7 layers, each attached to one of the Seven Deadly Sins (with an Archfiend that embodies one of the sins ruling each level, like Mammon for Greed, Yeenoghu for Gluttony, Baphomet for Wrath, etc), and probably have the Blood War just take place on this single plane of existence, but that isn't necessary to this idea. Also like the Heaven plane in this same cosmology, the evil gods may or may not live here, it depends on the setting's deity situation, but the Archfiends definitely would, and would be what most Fiend Warlocks make pacts with. 

Third, onto the Plane of Law/Order. As much as I like Modrons, Inevitables, Primus, and Mechanus in the Great Wheel . . . I'm not sure if it would fit into this cosmology. They're a bit goofy, and don't really fit in with the other planes of existence in this cosmology. Instead, I would probably actually make the Shadowfell be the Plane of Law in this cosmology (you know, the inevitability of death, the order of the afterlife system, the oneness of shadows and darkness, as well as a smidge of the Gray Goo/Heat Death of the Universe and general entropy themes). Even the undead can often have themes of order in them, with necromancers creating undead minions, some of which can create their own undead minions (Wraiths can create Specters, Wights create Zombies, Vampires create Vampire Spawn and normal Vampires, etc). Another reason that I think this fits quite well is because the Feywild is the plane of emotions, which are inherently chaotic, and its opposite, the Shadowfell, is the plane of the lack of emotions, which would be inherently orderly (Shadar-Kai emotionlessly serve the Raven Queen, Undead serve their masters if they have any, the Dark Powers keep the Dark Lords of Ravenloft in eternal torment through never-ending cycles of reincarnation and repeating history in their Domains of Dread, etc). 

Fourth, the Plane of Chaos. As I said in the previous paragraph, the Feywild is the plane of emotions, which are chaotic, and it's the opposite of the Shadowfell, which in this cosmology would be the Plane of Law/Order, making the Plane of Chaos in this cosmology be the Feywild. Sorry, but I just really do not like Limbo (it has no native extraplanar creatures, as the Slaad were inadvertently created by Primus, it just isn't a good place to go on adventures, and is very same-y in its chaos, which is very boring). The Feywild is just more interesting, and as a plane of emotions, it fits well into the "Chaotic Plane" of this cosmology. When people think of Fey, one of the first things they think of is the tricksy, chaotic behavior of them, and how easy it is for them to get on anyone's bad side because of their "lol, so random" behavior. They just scream Chaotic Neutral stereotypes, so I think they fit well in this cosmology as the Plane of Chaos (especially because the Feywild is actually a place you can adventure in, while Limbo just _isn't_). 

Fifth, the Elemental Planes. I'd just keep them as is, but a bit more adventure-friendly and diverse in locations. Sure, the Elemental Plane of Fire is a plane of fire, but maybe there's a type of tree on this plane that has sap that makes you immune (or at least resistant) to fire damage for a certain amount of time, and this lets travelers venture to this plane (maybe with cities on Volcano-Islands in the sea of fire, with Fire-Newts, Azers/Salamanders, Efreeti/Fire Genasi, etc). Sure, the Plane of Earth is just endless dirt and rock in every direction, but there's dwarven (or maybe Azer, Stone Giants, or Earth Genasi/Dao) mines, and some type of food-source that naturally grows in the Plane of Earth (fungus, probably, but maybe a type of edible mineral that can be mined or domesticated bulettes/giant moles that people eat, or something like that). Sure, the Plane of Water is an endless ocean in all directions with giant sea creatures that would eat you if they had the chance, but there's Marid-built cities underwater, kind of like the Gungan cities from Naboo in Star Wars. Yes, the Plane of Air is just endless air, but there's floating earthmote-islands that people (Aarakocra, Djinn, Air Genasi) live on, using flying animals and vehicles (hot-air balloons, airships, spelljammers) to transport goods. There still will probably be the Elemental Chaos surrounding or in-between the Elemental Planes, which could basically be this cosmology's Limbo, but it wouldn't be that big of a part of the cosmology (maybe it's the home to Primordials/Archomentals). 

Sixth and finally, the transitive planes; Ethereal and Astral. I would probably make the Astral Sea be what the worlds (maybe Crystal Spheres) of the Material Plane float in, with Spelljammers sailing between the worlds and planes through it, but I haven't made up my mind. The Ethereal Plane probably wouldn't change all that much (probably just explicitly stated to be the "fabric of reality", with Demiplanes being parts of it that are folded/cut-off to create "pocket-dimensions"), but might have more native creatures instead of just Phase Spiders. However, these planes would remain mostly the same, with just minor tweaks and lore changes to fit the cosmology and world. 

And that's it. A more simple cosmology. There's one Good Plane, one Evil Plane, one Lawful Plane (of death/undead), one Chaotic Plane (or fey and emotions), the Four (or five) Elemental Planes, and two Transitive Planes. That's 10-11 non-material planes of existence, and some of them don't really count (the Transitive Planes, Elemental Chaos), and all of them would be possible to have adventures in (well, maybe not the Ethereal Plane, but its main role in D&D is just as a special form of movement). (Oh, and the Far Realm would still exist, but its whole deal is that it's extremely alien and going there will basically instantly kill you, so it doesn't really count. It's just a source of aberrations.) Most of the planes would be pretty easy to understand for new players, and it wouldn't have the issue of "what's the difference between Pandemonium and the Abyss? Or Mabar and Dolurrh? Ysgard and Acheron? Beastlands and the Feywild? Shadowfell, Negative Energy Plane, and Hades? Irian and Syrania?". IMHO, it would reduce confusion and redundancy, which would be a really good thing for a "base setting" or new "generic fantasy" setting to have.  

Any thoughts or suggestions? Again, I'm fine with the other cosmologies existing, even if I'm not super fond of some of them (_cough, the Great Wheel and World Tree, cough_), but I just think that D&D should have a more user-friendly mythology for a new setting or the next edition's base setting. And take note of the (+) in the title. Feel free to give suggestions and opinions to build onto this idea, but please don't crap onto the base idea. If you don't like anything about this suggestion, this thread is not for you. 

Have a good day, everyone!


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## DND_Reborn (Jan 9, 2022)

I don't think there is anything wrong with condensing the planes. I've used the wheel structure in AD&D for a long time, and really many of the similar planes could easily be "regions" of a singular plane, it would help with the redundancy, etc. as you mention.

Recently, in the cosmology of my world, I've taken a shift and removed the planes as they were and established "realms" in my world, where powerful forces (elemental, fiendish, fey, celestial, etc.) reside, transforming the region to reflect the power dwelling there. The "realms" are often considered dangerous regions, shunned by most, except in dire need (such as someone travelling to the realm of the dead to restore a loved one to life, etc.). I know it isn't a new idea, but I like it and it fits well with the rest of my world, more so than separate "planes" does.


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## humble minion (Jan 9, 2022)

I cordially hate the idea of D&D having 'a' one-size-fits-all-settings cosmology at all.  Cosmology, like anything else, should fit the setting and campaign.  Planescape you 100% want the Great Wheel.  FR has its own variant of the Great Wheel with prominent deific domains and the overgod Ao overlooking it all, and that fits cos FR is a gonzo kitchen-sink setting so hell yeah, include ALL the weird subplanes.  But the spare, limited cosmology of the Black and Grey fits Dark Sun far better, where you don't want easy travel to less-hostile otherworlds, and where things like upper planes stuffed full of benevolent celestials are thematically questionable.  And in most  Ravenloft games you probably don't want to talk about planar travel at all.

One of the creative mistakes that TSR made in the 2e era was, imho, shoehorning everything into one greater cosmology no matter how poorly it fit, and forcing crossovers.  For every time it worked even partially (Ravenloft fans liked Soth in Ravenloft, though Dragonlance fans generally hated it) there were a bunch when it didn't.  Kalidnay in Ravenloft, githyanki in Athas, Zakhara in FR, Krynn in Spelljammer. 

Different settings exist to tell different types of stories.  A Dragonlance story isn't the same as an Athasian story.  Setting should exist and be designed to facilitate the telling of the stories, but if you design a cosmology that works for a planescape game (for example), it just isn't going to work for (for example) Ravenloft.


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## Hussar (Jan 9, 2022)

Funnily enough, this is pretty much precisely the Dragonlance cosmology as it was originally envisioned.

Good beings go to an afterlife in a "heaven" - although it's never really detailed more than that.
Evil goes to the Abyss.  
There were, presumably, elemental planes although they don't really play much of a role.  Chaos gets folded into the Abyss.  

Heck, it's even simpler than @AcererakTriple6 describes really.  Which makes sense in a setting where extra-planar stuff really isn't the focus.  There aren't really demon cults, per se, in early Dragonlance.  When you have armies of dragons, gods walking the world and various other goodies, you don't really need a whole lot of cosmology.

But, yeah, I would totally love to see a much more simplified cosmology.  Then again, I'd love to see each setting get a very setting specific cosmology and then Planescape being it's own thing that is not part of baseline D&D.  So a Nalfeshnee in Greyhawk is different from one in Forgotten Realms and different again from what you'd find in Sigil.  

I've never understood this imperative to force all planar stuff to be identical across the settings.  Why is a Greyhawk Earth Elemental the exact same as a Forgotten Realms Earth Elemental and so on?


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## Krachek (Jan 9, 2022)

A home and some sample gods for cleric domains.
A home and some sample for Warlock patrons.
2 pages, Including pictures.

Ex : A brief description of the nine hells and Asmodeus for the fiend Patron.


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## squibbles (Jan 9, 2022)

I find the strangeness and complexity of the great wheel _interesting_. There are lots of dud planes, but lots of philosophically intriguing ones too. The plane of limbo really comes alive in Planescape Torment with Dakkon's backstory--his unbroken circle of zerthimon bit is, in my opinion, the best D&D fiction ever written.

This topic, though, turns heavily on how much importance the official/assumed setting has. The DMG is pretty coy about it "As described in the Player's Handbook, the assumed D&D cosmology includes more than two dozen planes. For your campaign, you decide what planes to include..." It has just A BUTTLOAD of different options on p. 44. One of them is, more or less, what you have suggested here minus the shadowfell & feywild:
​"The Omniverse. This simple cosmology covers the bare minimum: a Material Plane; the Transitive Planes; a single Elemental Chaos; an Overheaven, where good aligned deities and celestials live; and the Underworld, where evil deities and fiends live."​
I think they probably shouldn't have printed ANY cosmology in the PHB--especially given that the DMG completely undercuts it--or left the cosmology at the vaguest general level, i.e. _in D&D there are many dimensions PCs can travel to, from the echoes of the material world, to the elemental chaos, to the underworld, the realms of the gods, and the astral and ethereal planes; your DM will know the specifics_. They could also have just listed the planes with brief descriptions for ones that are more important. Tbh, the brief PHB description of, say, "Carceri, the Tarterian Depths of--NE, CE" in Appendix C without any further elaboration or mention anywhere else in the PHB is actually pretty brilliant. It stirs the imagination without nailing anything down. The DM's just gotta prevent players from feeling like they're supposed to look it up on the internet to be playing the game properly, or that there are correct descriptions that can be found online at all.

--edit--your suggestion sounds fine to me too.


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (Jan 9, 2022)

squibbles said:


> One of them is, more or less, what you have suggested here minus the shadowfell & feywild:
> "The Omniverse. This simple cosmology covers the bare minimum: a Material Plane; the Transitive Planes; a single Elemental Chaos; an Overheaven, where good aligned deities and celestials live; and the Underworld, where evil deities and fiends live."



Interesting. I don't remember that, and I've read the DMG quite a few times. It is pretty similar to what I recommended. Did any official D&D world ever use this cosmology, or is it something they came up with solely to put in the 5e DMG?


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## squibbles (Jan 9, 2022)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> Interesting. I don't remember that, and I've read the DMG quite a few times. It is pretty similar to what I recommended. Did any official D&D world ever use this cosmology, or is it something they came up with solely to put in the 5e DMG?



As far as I know, it's just for the DMG.


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## Tales and Chronicles (Jan 9, 2022)

I think in the feature I'll go with a stupidly basic idea that we had on this board a few weeks ago:

Planes will based on the monster types that inhabits it, each having their own god/s and ''underdark''. The Dragon Eyries, The Oozing Delves, the Abyss, The Hunting Ground, The Feywild, The Shadowfell, The Far Realm, The Celestial Archives, The Forge, Giant's Reach etc .....and the Prime, of course, land of humanoids and beasts. Once in a while, the Planes ''shed a tear'' that falls on the prime and spread native creatures of that planes on the Prime.


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## Malmuria (Jan 9, 2022)

One of the ironies of Planescape is that the more it described the _smaller_ the multiverse became.  They were theoretically infinite, but uniform in their infinity.  In many cases, the detail they added was fairly mundane: towns and taverns with stuff to sell, but with a twist of a weird geography or cosmopolitan variety of inhabitants.  I love planescape, but when I run the setting I try to emphasize the weirdness and infiniteness of the planes, and part of that means resisting the urge to map everything out and put every deity in the right place.


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## Jacob Lewis (Jan 9, 2022)

Or...


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (Jan 9, 2022)

Jacob Lewis said:


> Or...
> View attachment 149621



I acknowledge that the World Axis Cosmology is simpler than the Great Wheel. However, it is still fairly complicated. While it does look like 5 planes of existence in that display, it's more (it has the Abyss, Nine Hells, Pandemonium, Carceri, and other planes still. The Elemental Chaos and Astral Sea are more like Transitive Planes/Planar Locations that the other planes of existence are found in). I do prefer the World Axis to the Great Wheel, but it's not as simple as my tastes, and I did borrow a bit from it in my explanation of a possible simplified cosmology in the OP (Astral Sea with spelljammers in it, moving the cosmology from wheel-shaped to more "axis" based, etc).


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## cbwjm (Jan 9, 2022)

Your suggestion is similar to my current homebrew. I have:

Godsheim, the celestial plane from which the gods were born. Think of marvel comics' asgard floating in the astral sea. Their adventures in Godsheim become the myths of the prime.
The prime plane, with the shadowfell and feywild situated close by (they don't reflect the prime though). They are floating upon the following planes (figuratively, not literally... maybe metaphysically?)
The elemental planes with the elemental chaos at the centre.
The lower planes, including the nine hells, the domains of sin, and the independent abyssal lords.
I don't really have the classic transitive planes like the ethereal or astral, the astral sea isn't really a transitive plane. However you can often find hidden pathways between different realms, many through the elemental planes linking the upper and lower planes to the prime.

I need a different name from godsheim. It was a stop gap which has stuck around in my notes but I'm not actually too fond of it.


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## EzekielRaiden (Jan 9, 2022)

cbwjm said:


> I need a different name from godsheim. It was a stop gap which has stuck around in my notes but I'm not actually too fond of it.



Perhaps Odrheim? From Wikipedia: "The Old Norse theonym _Óðr_ derives from an identical noun, meaning 'mind, wit, soul, sense' but also 'song, poetry', which in turn stems from Proto-Germanic _*wōðaz_, a substantive of an adjective meaning 'possessed, inspired, delirious, raging'." It is the plane of the soul, but also the plane of song, poetry, and sagas.

For my own part, I agree with most of it, but think there's still worth in separating the Hells from the Abyss--or at least in distinguishing them as two really important subsets of a singular Lower Plane. "Paradise" is unified despite its differences; Good aids Good even when they don't always get along. "Pandaemonium" is divided despite its similarities, so Evil attacks Evil even when they share common goals. In fact, I'd even go so far as to say that it would be pretty cool to have both Hell and the Abyss because the two sides fought so hard, _they tore their plane in half_. There _used_ to be a singular Lower Plane (call it Pandaemonium for fun), but the Blood War became so devastating, so severe, that it literally clove the two sides in twain. This also opens the door for some great prophetic shenanigans, where the prospect of a reunited Pandaemonium would mean very, very dire things for mortals, particularly if Heaven is currently incapable of fully mustering its forces (e.g. the differences are weighing heavily right now and it'd take a swift kick in the rear to get things back in shape.)

Personally, I feel even making the Shadowfell the "plane of law" is a bit much, since...well, it kinda makes law strongly associated with evil and destruction, given the nature of undeath and such. Perhaps that could be how some cultures _view_ the Shadowfell, but I wouldn't personally stress "Shadowfell = Law, Feywild = Chaos" as an explicit cosmological link. As an example, the Feywild is also the place most strongly associated with arcane magic...which is stereotypically associated with Wizards, who are usually Lawful because of the demands of their discipline. Meanwhile, entropy is one of those lovely ambiguous things that can be either Law or Chaos depending on how you frame it (natural law forces greater entropy....but entropy is a measurement of the _disorder_ of things!) So if you're really set on this, perhaps give it an almost literal taijitu/"yin-yang" element, where there's Chaos hidden within the Law and Law hidden within the Chaos or the like.

Beyond that...I mean, if you really like the elemental planes being almost entirely featureless inaccessible nothing, alright. I never really saw the point. If you're already inserting rocks into the purity of the elemental air and inserting pockets of air into the purity of elemental earth, I don't much see the point of insisting that there's this transfinite chunk of inaccessible whatever out there, since (by definition) it's inaccessible and featureless. Or, to put it another way: From the perspective of people who actually _visit_ these planes, what's the difference between these two things?

the fundamental nature of the elemental planes is literally, actually infinite stretches of pure, unadulterated elements, and we visit the vanishingly-small margins where it's 95% fire (or whatever)
the fundamental nature of the elemental planes heavily biases them to one element, but the planes are so vast, you can easily find nigh-infinite stretches of pure, unadulterated elements if you go looking.
Because from where I'm sitting...there isn't one in practice. Neither in a Doylistic sense (we know where people are going to adventure, and it isn't going to be "infinite stretches of pure elements") nor in a Watsonian one (there's literally _nothing there_, so there's no motive to visit these _actually_-infinite stretches that couldn't be served by large-but-finite ones.) But there _is_ a difference in how it cashes out, whether for Doyle or Watson: It explains why there's anything to be seen there at all, rather than the Plane of Fire being literally a featureless infinite expanse of fire and truly, absolutely nothing else.


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## Li Shenron (Jan 9, 2022)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> Any thoughts or suggestions?



I think your idea is fine! One single good afterlife and one single bad afterlife make sense. I am surprised by Shadowfell being the "lawful" place but ok. It's not clear if you mean Shadowfell and Feywild to also be afterlife. 

Otherwise I don't see why the Great Wheel is difficult to understand. Yes it has probably too many planes, but "difficult to understand"? Or is this because you think you have to describe it all to your players in advance? I don't think average players are interested in listening to a whole lecture in cosmology before playing the game as much as we DMs are, so I generally suggest to keep it for ourselves until it comes up in the story.


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## Lyxen (Jan 9, 2022)

Overall, I think that the problem only comes from people feeling that things are forced upon them, which is why the FR is such a problem, from an interesting world, it has become a monstrosity where players have to accept the intrusion of things which make no sense there.

Note that, in general, D&D does not do that kind of forcing, it's more like suggestions. For example, in another recent thread, I showed that Spelljammer was not forced upon Dark Sun for example. All these cross-pollinisations are completely optional.

What is important is to design the cosmology that works with the setting that you want to run, assuming that it's important for your stories there. It works really well for Eberron, or for Planescape, or for Dragonlance as long as you are playing that setting.

I happen to absolutely love Planescape, and I put it in most of my settings, but when I designed our best massive multi-DM campaign, I used a completely different and original cosmology because it was the only way to fit the mood and adventures that I wanted for that setting.

So if you want a simplified cosmology because it fits your setting, go ahead. It would not work for me since, as long as I'm doing some design, I prefer it to be really original and surprising, and basically yours is still an attempt to cram in everything D&D into a box of a different shape (which is different from what Eberron did, for example), but if it's what you are looking for, go ahead.


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## Hussar (Jan 9, 2022)

The problem is, no, it really isn't an optional "cross pollination" when you start using modules.  If you do all homebrew adventures, all the time, then great, you can pick and choose.  But, as soon as you pick up a module, if it goes planar, it's 100% Planescape all the time.  So, no, I disagree @Lyxen that it's just optional.  

There are those of us who would love to play planar adventures without having to deal with all the crap that comes with it.


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## Rogerd1 (Jan 9, 2022)

This is essentially DnD cosmology, just done better in DC comics.
Where the Speed Force is you could replace that with Astral and then Ethereal planes.
Where the House of Heroes is, just replace that Shadowfell and Feywild.

Or do this, as per my cosmology.

Limbo: This circles the multiverse and is where the outsiders (Outer gods) reside.

Higher Place: This is where beings similar to ST Q, DC Mxy, or DW Eternals reside. They guard and protect the multiverse, but also use lesser beings, meaning everyone else, as toys for their amusement.

Dimensions: These are externals locations that float in the nothingness between planes.

Planes (Branes): They float on the sea of possibilities, like leaves. These can be from solar system to galaxy sized, of which there can be trillions, or more. All of these alternates has another existing alongside it. They all have their own mythic beings, dimensions, and afterlives – some of which are positively grim. These can be separated into Fantasy, High Fantasy, Horror, Science Fiction etc.

Shadow: This is the nothingness between planes.

Sea of Possibilities: As per Dark Roads and Golden Hells.

This lets me use all the planar handbooks at the same time, as each one could be its own plane, with its own rules.


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## Lyxen (Jan 9, 2022)

Hussar said:


> The problem is, no, it really isn't an optional "cross pollination" when you start using modules.  If you do all homebrew adventures, all the time, then great, you can pick and choose.  But, as soon as you pick up a module, if it goes planar, it's 100% Planescape all the time.  So, no, I disagree @Lyxen that it's just optional.




First, there are not that many modules that go planar. Second, I think this point of view is biased by the fact that the only brutal cross-pollination example is that of the FR, and that most of the 5e modules have been published for that setting. The most immediate example is BG-DiA, which caused a problem for me because it started in the FR, not because it went to Hell, that second part was really cool. Fortunately, it was one of the parts of the FR that I can leave with.

But if you look at 4e which had a different cosmology (some parts were really nice in particular the Feywild and Shadowfell), then you did not find the great wheel.



Hussar said:


> There are those of us who would love to play planar adventures without having to deal with all the crap that comes with it.




The problem I think is that, except for Planescape which somehow made planar available at low level, planar adventures are usually considered high level, which is something that there is much less market for anyway. And I agree that Spelljammer made an intrusion in DotMM for no specific reason, but again this is the FR where cross-pollination is forced down your throat purposefully.

But I would be interested to know what examples you have in mind about planar adventures as there are not that many anyway as far as I know.


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## Li Shenron (Jan 9, 2022)

Hussar said:


> The problem is, no, it really isn't an optional "cross pollination" when you start using modules.  If you do all homebrew adventures, all the time, then great, you can pick and choose.  But, as soon as you pick up a module, if it goes planar, it's 100% Planescape all the time.  So, no, I disagree @Lyxen that it's just optional.
> 
> There are those of us who would love to play planar adventures without having to deal with all the crap that comes with it.



Well sometimes a minor adaptation is all you need. We played Lord of the Iron Fortress in 3ed as if Acheron was just an alternate material world rather than an afterlife, and there wasn't much to change in practice.


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## Lyxen (Jan 9, 2022)

Rogerd1 said:


> This is essentially DnD cosmology, just done better in DC comics.




No, it's not better, sorry. It's different, but I happen to dislike it, and in particular the ridiculous "speed force"  which makes no sense at all. Tastes, and YMMV and all that.


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## Rogerd1 (Jan 9, 2022)

Lyxen said:


> No, it's not better, sorry. It's different, but I happen to dislike it, and in particular the ridiculous "speed force"  which makes no sense at all. Tastes, and YMMV and all that.



The main thing is that it is simplified, and that there is more detail regarding it, and that each universe works off brane cosmology. Magic has been codified and explained within the last year or so.

What has been done in DnD supplements, although gone into great detail, fails to explain numerous things, and also how can epic heroes take on multiverse level gods. Such a thing is utter nonsense.

Like I said you remove the Speed Force and replace with Astral and Ethereal. Which as written in DnD are just plain terrible.

Alternatively there is also the cosmology from 4e, which is very similar to both Gurps Cabal, and expanded upon in Champions Mystic World.


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## Lyxen (Jan 9, 2022)

Rogerd1 said:


> The main thing is that it is simplified, and that there is more detail regarding it, and that each universe works off brane cosmology. Magic has been codified and explained within the last year or so.




If it works for you, good, but it holds no interest to me, it's not D&D. Note that I would not defend the Great Wheel in any other context than D&D either.



Rogerd1 said:


> What has been done in DnD supplements, although gone into great detail, fails to explain numerous things, and also how can epic heroes take on multiverse level gods. Such a thing is utter nonsense.




Why ? Look at Brandon Sanderson's books which are really brilliant, this is exactly what heroes do. Again, YMMV and it might not be your cup of tea, but D&D is built around the concept, always has been.



Rogerd1 said:


> Like I said you remove the Speed Force and replace with Astral and Ethereal. Which as written in DnD are just plain terrible.




Actually, they have always worked very well for us as transitive planes, the ethereal allowed a lot of shenanigans in dungeons, and the Astral plane, with Githyankis and such was really interesting too.



Rogerd1 said:


> Alternatively there is also the cosmology from 4e, which is very similar to both Gurps Cabal, and expanded upon in Champions Mystic World.




As mentioned, there are parts of it that were brilliant, and others not so much, again a matter of taste.


----------



## Li Shenron (Jan 9, 2022)

Rogerd1 said:


> What has been done in DnD supplements, although gone into great detail, fails to explain numerous things



I think the real failure is _pretending_ to explain things that aren't grounded in reality


----------



## Rogerd1 (Jan 9, 2022)

Lyxen said:


> If it works for you, good, but it holds no interest to me, it's not D&D. Note that I would not defend the Great Wheel in any other context than D&D either.
> 
> Why ? Look at Brandon Sanderson's books which are really brilliant, this is exactly what heroes do. Again, YMMV and it might not be your cup of tea, but D&D is built around the concept, always has been.
> 
> ...



1. Sphere of the Gods is exactly the Outer planes from Dnd. Quote obviously so.
2. Brandon Sanderson books are all set in one galaxy that I remember. So the deities are not multiverse level that I recall, and Sanderson is very keen on having limits to magic, what it can and cannot do. Now if I am wrong please say so, and point in a direction to get my facts right.
3. Yeah they are transitive planes. But why not just have one?
4. Yes it is, but remember the whole point of this thread is to simplify DnD cosmology, not keep it the way it is.



Li Shenron said:


> I think the real failure is _pretending_ to explain things that aren't grounded in reality



Exactly, which is what DC comics has tried to do, and done successfully.


----------



## Lyxen (Jan 9, 2022)

Li Shenron said:


> I think the real failure is _wanting_ to explain things that aren't grounded in reality




What do you mean by "reality" ? The reason for which the Great Wheel and all its little cogs suits me is that it is extremely playable, if you are using the corresponding paradigms in your game (which we are, a lot of people at our tables are children of AD&D in particular, and even the younger generations like it that way). Obviously, if it's not your cup of tea, I understand you using something else, but the good points of the Great Wheel for us is that it was designed with playability in mind, just like Eberron's, by the way, which loops back to my first message here. Choose what you want to play, and design or re-use your setting and its appropriate cosmology according to what you want. My problem with the DC one is that it was designed for comics and that unfortunately, different mediums don't translate well across each other, it's really hard to implement a RPG in a book / comic / movie setting and vice-versa, they are not designed with the same audience in mind and using the same kind of heroes and actions. This is why, for me, cosmologies designed for TTRPG have always been superior in terms of gaming, they are suited to the hobby.


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## Rogerd1 (Jan 9, 2022)

Lyxen said:


> My problem with the DC one is that it was designed for comics and that unfortunately, different mediums don't translate well across each other, it's really hard to implement a RPG in a book / comic / movie setting and vice-versa, they are not designed with the same audience in mind and using the same kind of heroes and actions. This is why, for me, cosmologies designed for TTRPG have always been superior in terms of gaming, they are suited to the hobby.



Yet there is a DC Mutants and Masterminds using 3e I believe.
The the main M&M 3e setting uses one that is similar to Marvel's in the comics. Both of which are D20, and in essence what you play when DnD / PF breaks and you need to play higher levels of character.


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## Li Shenron (Jan 9, 2022)

Lyxen said:


> What do you mean by "reality" ? The reason for which the Great Wheel and all its little cogs suits me is that it is extremely playable



I hope you haven't played so much D&D that you forgot what reality means 

I am in fact saying that being playable is what matters, and that I also like Planescape. But when someone says "fails to explain", I shrug because 
 the game does not have to explain everything, especially does not have to explain every fantasy.


----------



## Lyxen (Jan 9, 2022)

Rogerd1 said:


> 1. Sphere of the Gods is exactly the Outer planes from Dnd. Quote obviously so.




I don't know enough about the DC cosmology, but I suspect it's not the case, the Outer Planes are not only the domains of the gods in the Great Wheel, and some gods don't even dwell there anyway.



Rogerd1 said:


> 2. Brandon Sanderson books are all set in one galaxy that I remember. So the deities are not multiverse level that I recall, and Sanderson is very keen on having limits to magic, what it can and cannot do. Now if I am wrong please say so, and point in a direction to get my facts right.




You can have a look here, it will show you that it is really a multiverse and not only planets in a galaxy (some of his other series like skywards are not in the cosmere and are in the galaxy though). But it is a multiverse, and a very complex metaphysical one with three realms (Physical, Cognitive and Spiritual) interfering, and it's probably not all as there are also things beyond death not covered by those realms.



Rogerd1 said:


> 3. Yeah they are transitive planes. But why not just have one?




Because they behave differently and cover a physical transition and a metaphysical one. One would be more boring and less rich, and honestly "speed force" is a concept that does not make any sense for either, at least to me.



Rogerd1 said:


> 4. Yes it is, but remember the whole point of this thread is to simplify DnD cosmology, not keep it the way it is.




My point is that simplification for the sake of simplification is pointless, designing from the ground up is way better if it matches your goals.



Rogerd1 said:


> Exactly, which is what DC comics has tried to do, and done successfully.




It depends on your point of view, for me the success is very relative in the sense that I'm not interested in it at all for my TTRPGs (contrary to the Great Wheel, or even better to Glorantha).


----------



## Lyxen (Jan 9, 2022)

Rogerd1 said:


> Yet there is a DC Mutants and Masterminds using 3e I believe.




Extremely confidential, at best...



Rogerd1 said:


> The the main M&M 3e setting uses one that is similar to Marvel's in the comics. Both of which are D20, and in essence what you play when DnD / PF breaks and you need to play higher levels of character.




I'm sure all the 3 people who played it loved it.


----------



## Lyxen (Jan 9, 2022)

Li Shenron said:


> I hope you haven't played so much D&D that you forgot what reality means




Sometimes I'm not so sure, should I consult ? 



Li Shenron said:


> I am in fact saying that being playable is what matters, and that I also like Planescape. But when someone says "fails to explain", I shrug because
> the game does not have to explain everything, especially does not have to explain every fantasy.




Then we completely agree. What is important is that it supports your stories, but for me, stories are even better when everything is not explained, especially TTRPGs who can be truly endless, so leaving space for future sequels is mandatory.


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## Rogerd1 (Jan 9, 2022)

Lyxen said:


> I don't know enough about the DC cosmology, but I suspect it's not the case, the Outer Planes are not only the domains of the gods in the Great Wheel, and some gods don't even dwell there anyway.
> 
> You can have a look here, it will show you that it is really a multiverse and not only planets in a galaxy (some of his other series like skywards are not in the cosmere and are in the galaxy though). But it is a multiverse, and a very complex metaphysical one with three realms (Physical, Cognitive and Spiritual) interfering, and it's probably not all as there are also things beyond death not covered by those realms.
> 
> ...



1. I do know DC cosmology, and trust me it is, albeit very simplified....
2. Ta very much i get a cup of coffee and have a good read of that.
3. Okay.
4. This is both wrong, and right. Simplifying it, is very laudable, and good goal - but redesigning from the ground up is better
5. Glorantha is extremely limiting a place to rpg to be honest. I know it was the inspiration for Exalted, but even so it is a far more limiting than say DnD.



Lyxen said:


> Extremely confidential, at best...
> 
> I'm sure all the 3 people who played it loved it.



1. This is plain wrong, right there.
2. I know you are trying to be humorous but seriously dude. It is an incredibly well played game, and is in all seriousness where you go when you want to either DnD or higher level of play. Powers and chargen is reasonably simplistic, more so than standard DnD as it all points buy.


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## Minigiant (Jan 9, 2022)

Why doesn't D&D just list like *all* 50+ planes and give 6-10 configurations? Two of which can be simple.
Then give you guidance to make you own.


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## Crimson Longinus (Jan 9, 2022)

@AcererakTriple6 Yeah, the Great Wheel (aside a cool name) is an utter mess. I'd never use it as written. As for your simplified model, it seems pretty logical, though personally heaven/hell division and basing things on alignment is something I wouldn't do. But if it works for the tone you're going for, then great.

Another thing I'd consider is how much any of this usually matters. Planehopping is really high level stuff, and most campaigns don't go that far. Most of the time all is needed is some vague idea that there might be some other dimensions where demons and other stuff like that comes from, but how it exactly works doesn't need to be something the characters actually know about.

One thing I've done my setting, is magical zones, which have some characteristics that you'd normally associate with certain planes. But these are merely areas within the normal world. Death zones (created by ancient mass deaths and/or powerful necromantic magic) that are a bit like Shadowfell, Wild Magic zones that are a bit like Feywild, Elemental zones where the elemental balance is skewed towards one element, making the area more like elemental planes etc.


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## Rogerd1 (Jan 9, 2022)

Crimson Longinus said:


> One thing I've done my setting, is magical zones, which have some characteristics that you'd normally associate with certain planes. But these are merely areas within the normal world. Death zones (created by ancient mass deaths and/or powerful necromantic magic) that are a bit like Shadowfell, Wild Magic zones that are a bit like Feywild, Elemental zones where the elemental balance is skewed towards one element, making the are more like elemental planes etc.



The Modern Age: Threefold setting divides planes into three. Those that follow science, standard physics rules, magical planes, and netherworlds which are essentially afterlife type settings. A good media example of this would the Angel episode where he visits surburbia, or the hell dimensions.

Another rpg, Gateway, has the world split into three zones, science, magic, and mutants.


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## Lyxen (Jan 9, 2022)

Rogerd1 said:


> 1. I do know DC cosmology, and trust me it is, albeit very simplified....




And therefore potentially much less interesting.



Rogerd1 said:


> 2. Ta very much i get a cup of coffee and have a good read of that.




Honestly, I would start from the books rather than from Coppermind, which will spoil many good surprises from the books. I'm sure that you started by DC comics and then approached the cosmology, not the other way around. I did the same for D&D and for Sanderson. My point is that the cosmologies are suited to the media.



Rogerd1 said:


> 5. Glorantha is extremely limiting a place to rpg to be honest. I know it was the inspiration for Exalted, but even so it is a far more limiting than say DnD.




Well, I thoroughly disagree here. Every single campaign that we've done in Glorantha, whether using Runequest or Heroquest or a mix has been a huge success, as Gloranthat is extremely varied, actually. But like any other setting, it needs to be approached by playing it.



Rogerd1 said:


> 1. This is plain wrong, right there.
> 2. I know you are trying to be humorous but seriously dude. It is an incredibly well played game, and is in all seriousness where you go when you want to either DnD or higher level of play. Powers and chargen is reasonably simplistic, more so than standard DnD as it all points buy.




And again, never met anyone who played it or who even advocated it. I'm sure fans love it, but it looks very confidential to me.


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## Lyxen (Jan 9, 2022)

Minigiant said:


> Why doesn't D&D just list like *all* 50+ planes and give 6-10 configurations? Two of which can be simple.
> Then give you guidance to make you own.




Well, I know that no one reads the DMG, but it actually does just that, so... 

Just read "creating a multiverse" and in particular the section about "putting planes together", which contains things like this:



> For your campaign, you decide what planes to include, inspired by the standard planes, drawn from Earth’s myths, or created by your own imagination.
> 
> At minimum, most D&D campaigns require these elements:
> 
> ...




etc...

_sigh_


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## Rogerd1 (Jan 9, 2022)

Lyxen said:


> And therefore potentially much less interesting.
> 
> Honestly, I would start from the books rather than from Coppermind, which will spoil many good surprises from the books. I'm sure that you started by DC comics and then approached the cosmology, not the other way around. I did the same for D&D and for Sanderson. My point is that the cosmologies are suited to the media.
> 
> ...



1. Above the gods are 5th dimensional Imps, then above then is the Sixth dimension - the multiverse control room is where the three Monitors watch over reality. The gods are split into fragments, each one exists in every reality- but they can be combined as Darkseid has done. Pre-Crisis Darkseid was bigger than a universe, and when he fell the destruction caused was incalculable. And because you don't know it, you have deemed it useless. Very biased and very small-minded of you.
2. Okay.
3. I am not saying Glorantha as a setting isn't fun, but the setting is extremely limiting in scope, say compared to DnD.
4. This is rubbish statement about it being confidential, of the highest order. The books are readily available on DTRPG, and M&M 2e uses DnD stats too boot.


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## Minigiant (Jan 9, 2022)

Lyxen said:


> Well, I know that no one reads the DMG, but it actually does just that, so...
> 
> Just read "creating a multiverse" and in particular the section about "putting planes together", which contains things like this:
> 
> ...



I have page 43 bookmarked.
My point is that I don't consider it guidance. Or at least full guidance.

There should be a stp by step example of creation of a cosmos just like creating a PC or race.


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## Rogerd1 (Jan 9, 2022)

Minigiant said:


> I have page 43 bookmarked.
> My point is that I don't consider it guidance. Or at least full guidance.
> 
> There should be a stp by step example of creation of a cosmos just like creating a PC or race.



I mean something like this might help?









						The Hidden Reality - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## Yora (Jan 9, 2022)

D&D really only uses three or four planes: Abyss, Nine Hells, Celestia, and maybe on occasion Limbo, if they are feeling cute that day.
Throw in a paralel material plane of shadow and fey because people like those, and I think we have everything covered.

So maybe three material planes (Material, Shadow, Fey), three divine planes (Celestia, Abyss, Hell), and a chaos plane to separate the two groups.


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## Lyxen (Jan 9, 2022)

Minigiant said:


> I have page 43 bookmarked.
> My point is that I don't consider it guidance. Or at least full guidance.
> 
> There should be a stp by step example of creation of a cosmos just like creating a PC or race.




It is step by step, and it even includes examples. Maybe not detailed enough for you, but I guess some people are never satisfied anyway.


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## Crimson Longinus (Jan 9, 2022)

Minigiant said:


> I have page 43 bookmarked.
> My point is that I don't consider it guidance. Or at least full guidance.
> 
> There should be a stp by step example of creation of a cosmos just like creating a PC or race.



I generally feel that most of the advice in DMG could easily be expanded upon quite a bit.  What I'd like to see is some sort of World Builder's Guide that would go more in depth with these sort of things.


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## Lyxen (Jan 9, 2022)

Rogerd1 said:


> 1. Above the gods are 5th dimensional Imps, then above then is the Sixth dimension - the multiverse control room is where the three Monitors watch over reality. The gods are split into fragments, each one exists in every reality- but they can be combined as Darkseid has done. Pre-Crisis Darkseid was bigger than a universe, and when he fell the destruction caused was incalculable. And because you don't know it, you have deemed it useless. Very biased and very small-minded of you.




And here you go, because I don't bow before the awesomeness of something that I don't care about because I don't like DC, I don't like mixing SF like monitors in my fantasy, I'm small-minded. Sue me, but once more, simplification should not be a goal in itself for mythology. See below about Glorantha and myths.



Rogerd1 said:


> 3. I am not saying Glorantha as a setting isn't fun, but the setting is extremely limiting in scope, say compared to DnD.




In some ways, Glorantha is more vast than D&D, because it has a real genesis story, and more than that, that genesis story is shrouded in many contradictory myths that PCs can interact with and modify to tell their own story in god time, with consequence upon the world after time began. It's a brilliant concept that has the added advantage to work really well in game play.



Rogerd1 said:


> 4. This is rubbish statement about it being confidential, of the highest order. The books are readily available on DTRPG, and M&M 2e uses DnD stats too boot.




And that proves the popularity how ? There are myriads of very obscure things on DTRPG, you know, and lots of "things" try to climb out of confidentiality by clinging to D&D.


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## Rogerd1 (Jan 9, 2022)

Lyxen said:


> And here you go, because I don't bow before the awesomeness of something that I don't care about because I don't like DC, I don't like mixing SF like monitors in my fantasy, I'm small-minded. Sue me, but once more, simplification should not be a goal in itself for mythology. See below about Glorantha and myths.
> 
> In some ways, Glorantha is more vast than D&D, because it has a real genesis story, and more than that, that genesis story is shrouded in many contradictory myths that PCs can interact with and modify to tell their own story in god time, with consequence upon the world after time began. It's a brilliant concept that has the added advantage to work really well in game play.
> 
> And that proves the popularity how ? There are myriads of very obscure things on DTRPG, you know, and lots of "things" try to climb out of confidentiality by clinging to D&D.



1. Exactly you're biased, and not open minded. That will obviously mean that you don't like Star Wars, or Esper Genesis then, which mixes SF and Fantasy together.
2. Rubbish. Glorantha lacks the vastness of DnD, nor is it a multiverse.
3. Fact, M&M is a large part of Green Ronin, like a huge following. Then it has the Age setting. Followed by the more recent release Sword Chronicle. They have also written for 5e, 3rd edition and a whole host of things. Everytime you reply you dig a deeper hole...perhaps you should stop digging?


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## Minigiant (Jan 9, 2022)

Lyxen said:


> It is step by step, and it even includes examples. Maybe not detailed enough for you, but I guess some people are never satisfied anyway.



It doesn't go through the steps. That's my point.

It's like giving someone the recipe list but not the recipe instructions.

CHOOSING AN UPPER PLANE
Next well we choose a plane for your celestials. Do you want one upper plane? Two? Four? Infinite? Many setting like the Olympic Cosmos have one upper plane. The Great Wheel has seven. The DMG includes these Upper Planes

Celestia/Heavens
Bytopia/Paradise
Elysium/Blessed Fields
The Beastlands
Arborea/Olympus
Ysgard/Asgard
Arcardia/Kingdoms
Cloudland
The Golden City

In this example we will choose 2 upper planes. Celestia for LG gods and celestials. Arborea for CG gods and celestial. NG gods and celestial will reside in one or the other or both depending on their preferences....


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## Lyxen (Jan 9, 2022)

Rogerd1 said:


> 1. Exactly you're biased, and not open minded.




It's called having tastes. I don't like DC, I don't like the Speed Force, and I don't like it slapped on cosmology which makes no sense to me. Is that allowed ? I don't force you to like the Great Wheel...



Rogerd1 said:


> That will obviously mean that you don't like Star Wars, or Esper Genesis then, which mixes SF and Fantasy together.




Now you are making really silly assumptions. I've been a Star Wars fan since my mother took me to see it in the cinema, and it's not a problem to me (and neither are Sanderson young adult skyward books) because they are obviously SciFi based even though it's not "hard" SciFi. My problem is more with having a mostly fantasy world where the explanation turns out that it was really (really bad) science because the author cannot imagine things in a purely fantastic way.



Rogerd1 said:


> 2. Rubbish.




Yeh, right. Now, who is biased and not open-minded ?



Rogerd1 said:


> Glorantha lacks the vastness of DnD, nor is it a multiverse.




I thought "vastness" and complexity were something to be criticised ? As for the "multiverse", well, even wikipedia happens to disagree with you with this citation: "Glorantha is immense. If explored, it has different worlds and dimensions, whole realms where Gods, spirits and sorcerous powers come from." So yes, it is a multiverse, and in particular during heroquests, you explore all the various planes and stories of the gods, and you even create your own.



Rogerd1 said:


> 3. Fact, M&M is a large part of Green Ronin, like a huge following. Then it has the Age setting. Followed by the more recent release Sword Chronicle. They have also written for 5e, 3rd edition and a whole host of things. Everytime you reply you dig a deeper hole...perhaps you should stop digging?




And yet, instead of showing me how large a following it has, you have to refer to other products like D&D and Green Ronin. I like digging into absurd claims like yours.


----------



## Lyxen (Jan 9, 2022)

Minigiant said:


> It doesn't go through the steps. That's my point.




But it does, it lists the basic elements, then, for example: "putting them into a coherent cosmology is an optional step." and it has quite a few examples, and suggestions, omniverse, myriad planes, etc.

But, once more, some people need to be guided step by step, it's not the purpose of a general book like the DMG to guide you through minute steps of the creation process of your world and its cosmology, especially since many DMs will probably never create one anyway. But some people will go to any length to find reasons to criticise.


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## Rogerd1 (Jan 9, 2022)

Lyxen said:


> It's called having tastes. I don't like DC, I don't like the Speed Force, and I don't like it slapped on cosmology which makes no sense to me. Is that allowed ? I don't force you to like the Great Wheel...
> 
> Now you are making really silly assumptions. I've been a Star Wars fan since my mother took me to see it in the cinema, and it's not a problem to me (and neither are Sanderson young adult skyward books) because they are obviously SciFi based even though it's not "hard" SciFi. My problem is more with having a mostly fantasy world where the explanation turns out that it was really (really bad) science because the author cannot imagine things in a purely fantastic way.
> 
> ...



1. Right, and?
2. I am not making any assumptions. Your statement below is you don't like SF mixed with fantasy, it just so happens you used the examples of Monitors. But it is your statement.


Lyxen said:


> And here you go, because I don't bow before the awesomeness of something that I don't care about because I don't like DC, I don't like mixing SF like monitors in my fantasy, I'm small-minded.



Make your mind up.

3 / 4. Glorantha is a square world, floating on a supposedly infinite sea, with the Underworld below, and Heavens above full of gods. No matter how you shake this tree, it will not make it a multiverse under current theories, merely a universe. You clearly have no clue what you are talking about.

5. Green Ronin has written numerous products of its own, and also for established products too.






						DriveThruRPG.com - The Largest RPG Download Store!
					

Your one-stop online shop for new and vintage RPG products from the top publishers, delivered fresh to your desktop in electronic format.




					www.drivethrurpg.com
				




So at this point you are clearly trolling. If a product line was not as successful as Mutants and Masterminds there would not be as many products available.


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## Lyxen (Jan 9, 2022)

Rogerd1 said:


> 1. Right, and?
> 2. I am not making any assumptions. Your statement below is you don't like SF mixed with fantasy, it just so happens you used the examples of Monitors. But it is your statement.




No, my statement is I don't like to mix SF in my fantasy, which is not the same thing.



Rogerd1 said:


> 3 / 4. Glorantha is a square world, floating on a supposedly infinite sea, with the Underworld below, and Heavens above full of gods. No matter how you shake this tree, it will not make it a multiverse under current theories, merely a universe. You clearly have no clue what you are talking about.




And not only have you not read the proofs that I've given to you, but it shows that you have no idea what Glorantha is, and in particular the difference between the god time and time, and their simultaneous existence, with all the realms that existed before Glorantha took the shape that it has today. Go read.



Rogerd1 said:


> 5. Green Ronin has written numerous products of its own, and also for established products too.




Great, and because Green Ronin has written many products, it somehow makes M&M 3e more than confidential, especially today when 3e is not played that much, even less derivative games ?



Rogerd1 said:


> DriveThruRPG.com - The Largest RPG Download Store!
> 
> 
> Your one-stop online shop for new and vintage RPG products from the top publishers, delivered fresh to your desktop in electronic format.
> ...




Look here: DriveThruRPG.com - The Largest RPG Download Store!

Dragon Warriors, a RPG from 1985 which was very confidential, I brought it at the time because it was simple for initiation, and it's still in DTRPG although I wager almost nobody plays it today. What exactly is your problem with M&M 3e being confidential ? I've played confidential games when they were great for our tables...


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## Rogerd1 (Jan 9, 2022)

Lyxen said:


> No, my statement is I don't like to mix SF in my fantasy, which is not the same thing.
> 
> And not only have you not read the proofs that I've given to you, but it shows that you have no idea what Glorantha is, and in particular the difference between the god time and time, and their simultaneous existence, with all the realms that existed before Glorantha took the shape that it has today. Go read.
> 
> ...



1. Mixing SF into your Fantasy is exactly what they have done with Star Wars, Nightsisters of Dathomir.
Esper Genesis is a mix of this too with the upcoming KS.

2. I have read them as I have the books. You are utterly ignorant of physics - it is that simple! Having extra dimensions tacked onto a world setting does not make a multiverse. In the same way that Calabi-Yau Manifold may be be part of our universe. This does not make a multiverse.

A multiverse is a group of universes, parallel and alternate (depending upon the model used).

3. It is clear English is your strong suite, as confidential as you are using is plain wrong.









						Definition of confidential | Dictionary.com
					

Confidential definition, spoken, written, acted on, etc., in strict privacy or secrecy; secret: a confidential remark. See more.




					www.dictionary.com
				




At no point are the games or settings secret.


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## Umbran (Jan 9, 2022)

*Mod Note:*
@Lyxen and @Rogerd1 

The two of you seem more engaged in your petty personal digs about who is closed-minded than you are with the topic.  And making the discussion personal is a good way tot get into an argument, and get yoruself ejected from the thread.

Lyxen, especially, you came into the thread to announce how what the thread was about would not work for you.  This is supposed to be a (+) thread, and that's not a constructive setup.  It seems to have positioned you to be in conflict, rather than building anything.

Both of you find better ways to engage with the topic, or take your leave of the discussion.


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## Rogerd1 (Jan 9, 2022)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> First, I would condense most of the Upper Planes into one "Heaven" plane. It could be called basically anything, from just "Heaven", to "Mount Celestia", or "Elysium", but for now we'll just call it "Heaven". I don't like how the Great Wheel will separate the afterlives of even good creatures from each other (so family members will be split up if they're of different good alignments), and think that one heaven could just fit all. It could have different layers (possibly one for each type of good alignment; chaotic, neutral, and lawful, but I'd prefer if the sub-divisions of the plane were more like home-realms for Angels, Archons, and Couatls, or something like that, but perhaps both of those could be used in the same setting). The plane is pretty simple; it would be Heaven. A paradise. A place that you probably never want to leave if you come here, with amazing weather, endless food and drink (maybe Nectar and Ambrosia), friendly people, eternal celestial servants, and so on. The Gods might live here if this cosmology has explicitly real gods and they're stated to live in places that the setting's characters can access, but this isn't necessary (maybe take a note from Exandria and have the Gods be real and present, but they can't journey to or interfere with the mortal plane). Either way, Celestial Paragons (Archangels, super powerful Couatls, possibly called Quetzalcouatls, and Head Archons) would be in charge of running most of the business on the plane, and would be what Celestial-Patron Warlocks would make pacts with.
> 
> Second, I would also condense most of the Lower Planes into one "Hell" plane. Again, the name doesn't really matter, it could be "Hades", "Hel(l)", "the Abyss/Nine Hells/Acheron/Pandemonium", or something like that, but it would be Hell, the home plane of Fiends and where people who do evil get sent when they die. I personally would probably use my previous idea of it having 7 layers, each attached to one of the Seven Deadly Sins (with an Archfiend that embodies one of the sins ruling each level, like Mammon for Greed, Yeenoghu for Gluttony, Baphomet for Wrath, etc), and probably have the Blood War just take place on this single plane of existence, but that isn't necessary to this idea. Also like the Heaven plane in this same cosmology, the evil gods may or may not live here, it depends on the setting's deity situation, but the Archfiends definitely would, and would be what most Fiend Warlocks make pacts with.



1. Okay so why not take a leaf from the older Charmed tv series, which had Upper Planes, and Lower Planes - both completely separate.

2. Have the astral, but various levels? So at the bottom is the astral sea, star visible through the silvery reflective surface. Mid level could be clouds, which could even possibly contain whole planets? And upper astral could be a dark void full of unknown dangers?


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## Lyxen (Jan 9, 2022)

Nevermind...


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## Li Shenron (Jan 9, 2022)

Minigiant said:


> Why doesn't D&D just list like *all* 50+ planes and give 6-10 configurations? Two of which can be simple.
> Then give you guidance to make you own.



The 3ed Manual of the Planes does that (it's not 50 but more like ~35) but we haven't got a similar book in 5e yet, only the slim information in DMG.


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## Twiggly the Gnome (Jan 9, 2022)

Not really in favor of a "one cosmology to rule them all", but for a simple and flavorful one I'd go with:

Prime Material - Center
(Main stage of campaign)

Celestia - Above
(Elemental Air, Astral Sea, & Saintly Planes)

Chthon - Below
(Elemental Earth, Border Ethereal, Shadowfell, & Diabolical Planes)

Oceanos - North
(Elemental Water, Deep Ethereal, & Anarchic Planes)

Gehenna - South
(Elemental Fire & Demoniac Planes)

Arborea - East
(Elemental Wood, Feywild, & Beautific Planes)

Mechanus - West
(Elemental Metal & Axiomatic Planes)


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## Lyxen (Jan 9, 2022)

Li Shenron said:


> The 3ed Manual of the Planes does that (it's not 50 but more like ~35) but we haven't got a similar book in 5e yet, only the slim information in DMG.




Seeing that these books are mostly "not rules" any edition of the Manual of the Planes would do that, or actually any of the sites on the web, since they are mostly ruleless too.


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## Minigiant (Jan 9, 2022)

Li Shenron said:


> The 3ed Manual of the Planes does that (it's not 50 but more like ~35) but we haven't got a similar book in 5e yet, only the slim information in DMG.




Yet another book 5e is missing 

Well there are what 27 planes in the Great Wheel. And Feywild- and some all new planes and you can get to 50. 


Xibalba and Mictlan for D&D


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## Tales and Chronicles (Jan 9, 2022)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> I acknowledge that the World Axis Cosmology is simpler than the Great Wheel. However, it is still fairly complicated. While it does look like 5 planes of existence in that display, it's more (it has the Abyss, Nine Hells, Pandemonium, Carceri, and other planes still. The Elemental Chaos and Astral Sea are more like Transitive Planes/Planar Locations that the other planes of existence are found in). I do prefer the World Axis to the Great Wheel, but it's not as simple as my tastes, and I did borrow a bit from it in my explanation of a possible simplified cosmology in the OP (Astral Sea with spelljammers in it, moving the cosmology from wheel-shaped to more "axis" based, etc).



My own take with the World Axis is that each realm in the Planes (Hestavar, Carceri, Arvandor, the City of Brass etc) is more like a huge city or domain, rather than a complete plane. Maybe something like Domains of Dread/Delight. 

So you dont have to learn 10+ different planes, just like you dont have to know the different cities of the Feywild or Shadowfell.


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## Rogerd1 (Jan 9, 2022)

For anyone that wants something a bit different from standard DnD planes, I highly recommend Tales of Arcana. It is an absolutely fantastic 5e supplement, and well worth your money.

Planes: (WIR) Tales of Arcana 5e race guide


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## jgsugden (Jan 9, 2022)

Well, your idea can work - because I've been using evolving versions of setting that uses many of the idea since the early 1980s. My posts in the threads below describe my setting's approach.









						D&D General - What are the "dead settings" of D&D?
					

A reason/hook for people who don't plan on running the Realms to buy it. How does it expand the available rules or tools for D&D 5e?It is itself the tool, and uses the core rules as written.  I'm assumng the market to be a) those who are intending to either run it stock or convert it to their...




					www.enworld.org
				











						D&D 5E - Ethereal Plane in 5e?
					

I'm going to be using the Ethereal Plane in an upcoming game with a Lost City that exists both on the Material and the Border Ethereal. But I'm having a hard time grasping the essence of the Ethereal Plane (pun intended) even after reading its entry in the 5e DMG, the 3.5e Manual of the Planes...




					www.enworld.org
				











						D&D General - Different regions VS different planes
					

If you want your adventures to take place in a large fantasy setting that encompasses different civilizations, cultures, pantheons, technologies, perhaps even actual rules... do you prefer to set them in a different region/continent of the world on a single plane of existence (e.g. Forgotten...




					www.enworld.org
				











						Planar Configurations; How Do You Design The Multiverse?
					

As the title says, I want to know how others organize their planes.  Do you use The Great Wheel, are all of your planes alternate versions of the Prime Material, do you have other planes?  I wish to know what you have done.  I have used a few different planar arrangements, The Great Wheel, a...




					www.enworld.org
				











						D&D General - Assumed Lore/Sacred Cows you've changed +
					

Gods do not have a single alignment. Mortals do, because mortals are limited. A god has every alignment. If mortals consider a God to be "good," that's just a function of how they interact with that God. They could find the God to be very much the reverse in different circumstances. (I came up...




					www.enworld.org
				











						Planejammer / Spellscape
					

So I've been thinking about this idea of combining spelljammer and planescape and it bothered me.  I knew that a big aspect was that the "flavors", the tone if you will, didn't seen to match.  But there was something else, and I think I just figured it out.  It's the, ah, logistics.  Sigil is...




					www.enworld.org
				




The short version:

* In the early 1980s I decided to simplify because I was 10 and the DMG description seemed way too hard for me to follow 'correctly'.  In my setting, there was a Prime World (and Universe of planets - infinitely large, but with a prime world at the center), a Heaven (a finite space), a Hell (an infinite area), an Elemental Plane (infinite) and an Astral Plane/Sea (infinite).  I ran with that for almost a decade without any real change.  We probably booked 3000 game hours (and another 2000 of my prep time) in that setting before I made any real change.  

* In the late 1980s I revealed that the Positive Energy Plane, Negative Energy Plane and Ethereal Plane also existed.  I did this because it fit my storylines for my setting, and it didn't contradict anything I'd established - but for the most part they didn't have any use or impact. Soon after, I worked in the Ravenloft boxed set concept - modified to fit my game, with the Ravenloft Realms floating in the Astral Sea.  We ran with that for almost 20 years without any real change, except me putting a lot of Spelljamming into the Astral Plane/Sea.  There was likely about 5000 hours of games playeed during this time.

* When 4E came out I added the Feywild and Shadowfell and moved the Ravenloft Realms into the Shadowfell becaus they fit so well there.  I also created a Feywild equivalent to Ravenloft Realms, but there are only 2 established ones - One where Titania and Oberron rule, and one where the Queen of Air and Darkness rules.  I also think this is when I shifted the name of the Astral Plane to the Astral Sea officially, but people had been using the Astral Plane like a Babylon 5 Hyperspace for a long time at this point with their Spelljammers.  Since 4E came out we've booked about 3000 more hours of gameplan in my setting - although when I moved in late 2019 I rebooted it with a new group of players and made a lot of tweaks (primarily replacing my Homebrew Gods with Dawn War and Greyhawk Gods).  The old version is still in use, although I'm playing it rarely online with a couple groups and they're heading towards a calamity that will essentially end the setting.

* How do I know it will end the setting?  I also have established a timeline where events are destined to happen, so that even when there is Time Travel and the past is disrupted, the timeline tends to correct back to the same general course.  As a result, we know that the future of my campaign world will be an Athasian / Dark Sun / Gamma World style wasteland.  Additionally, PCs can venture into the past where the world was, for lack of a better description, more Biblical in feel - The Gods played a much more direct and powerful place in the setting, and it was a brutal and unforgiving environment.


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## Li Shenron (Jan 9, 2022)

Minigiant said:


> Yet another book 5e is missing
> 
> Well there are what 27 planes in the Great Wheel. And Feywild- and some all new planes and you can get to 50.
> 
> ...



Feywild is already in 3e MotP but it was still called the Plane of Faeries, and Shadowfell was still called the Plane of Shadows. 

MotP also had Dreamscapes, Plane of Mirrors, Far Realms, a couple of unusual elemental planes (Cold and Wood), some demiplanes (the Observatory) and maybe a couple more.


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## Neonchameleon (Jan 9, 2022)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> Now, onto what I would include in a simplified cosmology.
> 
> First, I would condense most of the Upper Planes into one "Heaven" plane. It could be called basically anything, from just "Heaven", to "Mount Celestia", or "Elysium", but for now we'll just call it "Heaven".



But I don't _want_ to sit around on a cloud all day strumming a harp. Or an endless drunken feast for warriors in Valhalla. Or...

And this is when just having a single Heaven falls apart. Two different people can have very different ideas as to what heaven is - and not all religions necessarily split heaven and hell (I'm reminded of a parable where both heaven and hell are the same dining table with six foot long cutlery). D&D's default cosmology is explicitly polytheistic. And it's not clear at least to me why there should be hard dividing lines between afterlives by alignment; you're always going to get fuzzy borders. Never mind the heavens where some of the pleasures involve watching the sufferings of the damned. Fundamentally I think it makes sense to have all the afterlives in the same general area.


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## Dire Bare (Jan 9, 2022)

Rogerd1 said:


> This is essentially DnD cosmology, just done better in DC comics.
> Where the Speed Force is you could replace that with Astral and then Ethereal planes.
> Where the House of Heroes is, just replace that Shadowfell and Feywild.
> 
> ...



I wouldn't say the DC multiverse is superior to the D&D multiverse . . . . but it is certainly glorious in it's complexity and weirdness. This, to me, is a strength of the comics genre that is shared with D&D.

And of course, the DC multiverse has evolved over the decades . . . DC, and their counterpart Marvel, have long been okay with retcons and retrofits to their characters, stories, and cosmology. D&D, for whatever reason, got burned when trying to update and revise things (4th Edition). The awesome diagram you posted was the state of the DC multiverse at that time of publication, it has since evolved even further with the introduction of the "Dark Multiverse" from the Death Metal story. And it will continue to evolve and be retconned.

I'm perfectly fine with gamers reinventing the cosmology of D&D for their own tables, and I'm perfectly fine with WotC updating and retconning the cosmology for the next edition of the game, as they tried to do so before with 4th Edition. I'm curious if the now broader audience for D&D will be more accepting of an updated, possibly simplified, D&D cosmology than the audience was back in 2008.


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## Rogerd1 (Jan 9, 2022)

Dire Bare said:


> I wouldn't say the DC multiverse is superior to the D&D multiverse . . . . but it is certainly glorious in it's complexity and weirdness. This, to me, is a strength of the comics genre that is shared with D&D.
> 
> And of course, the DC multiverse has evolved over the decades . . . DC, and their counterpart Marvel, have long been okay with retcons and retrofits to their characters, stories, and cosmology. D&D, for whatever reason, got burned when trying to update and revise things (4th Edition). The awesome diagram you posted was the state of the DC multiverse at that time of publication, it has since evolved even further with the introduction of the "Dark Multiverse" from the Death Metal story. And it will continue to evolve and be retconned.
> 
> I'm perfectly fine with gamers reinventing the cosmology of D&D for their own tables, and I'm perfectly fine with WotC updating and retconning the cosmology for the next edition of the game, as they tried to do so before with 4th Edition. I'm curious if the now broader audience for D&D will be more accepting of an updated, possibly simplified, D&D cosmology than the audience was back in 2008.




The Dark Multiverse was a fantastic arc. Especially as we also have Perpetua, and other Celestials, and the Source being back. With some tinkering you actually do a version of that if you updated DnD Cosmology.

I can only hope that current gamers would be more open to a different cosmology. But 4e shared similarities with Champions Mystic World, so you could absolutely go that direction reasonably easily too.


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## Dire Bare (Jan 9, 2022)

I actually love how gloriously convoluted and complex the D&D cosmology has become over the years. It's wonky, doesn't make sense, and is a mish-mash of ideas from mythology, literature, and philosophy. Love. It. 

However, I do tend to simplify things somewhat in my own campaigns, not that it matters to my players as they are bashing their way through dungeons . . . . the only real change I make is that instead of each plane being infinite in scope and size, they are more bounded and exist within regions.

So, I have a "heaven" region where all of the various good-aligned realms exist . . . both together and somewhat separate in impossible geographical relationships. This region blends into others for "hell" (evil), chaos, and law. It doesn't make much of a practical difference, all the same places are there . . . it's just works better in my head.


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## Yaarel (Jan 9, 2022)

I agree the Players Handbook needs to avoid planar assumptions. If planes are mentioned at all, then simplify.

It is the DM and the setting that the DM chooses that decides the cosmology.

Generally, I find the useful planes to be:

Matter: the material plane.
Soul: spirit world, outofbody, incorporeal, telekinesis, ether.
Mind: mindscape, imagination, dreams, astral.

The fey and shadow are part of the spirit world.

Paradise versus Purgatory can be part of the mindscape.

Everything else can be regions. The sun itself is the "plane of fire". The ocean is the "plane of water". Etcetera.


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## Minigiant (Jan 9, 2022)

Li Shenron said:


> Feywild is already in 3e MotP but it was still called the Plane of Faeries, and Shadowfell was still called the Plane of Shadows.
> 
> MotP also had Dreamscapes, Plane of Mirrors, Far Realms, a couple of unusual elemental planes (Cold and Wood), some demiplanes (the Observatory) and maybe a couple more.



Now I remember.

I would love to see more alternative version of the Material, Fey, and Shadow planes. Such as the Good or Evil tilted Materials. Or an elemental plane equivalent of the Feywild. An "Elementalwild" and "Elementalfell". Places where all elemental energies are empowered or dampened and become transitional planes as replacements or additions.

Heaven
Material- Feywild-Shadowfell-Elementalwild-Powerfall
Hell


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## Hussar (Jan 9, 2022)

Li Shenron said:


> Well sometimes a minor adaptation is all you need. We played Lord of the Iron Fortress in 3ed as if Acheron was just an alternate material world rather than an afterlife, and there wasn't much to change in practice.



There's a good example of what I meant. And, at the other end of 3e, you have Savage Tide Adventure Path, which the last third of the AP might as well be renamed Planescape Adventures. 

Look, I'll admit to just really not liking Planescape at all.  I really, really don't.  Which would be fine, except that Planescape is the basis for every planar monster, every module that deals with the planes, and everything else to do with the planes that gets released regardless of any other setting.

Oh, look, it's another demon type.  Cool.  Oh, look, a whole section on how it fits in the Blood War.  Gee, that's great.


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## Older Beholder (Jan 10, 2022)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> Instead, I would probably actually make the Shadowfell be the Plane of Law in this cosmology (you know, the inevitability of death, the order of the afterlife system, the oneness of shadows and darkness, as well as a smidge of the Gray Goo/Heat Death of the Universe and general entropy themes).




I like your idea of limiting the planes. I've done this in my homebrew by setting things near the end of the multiverse, where a lot of planes have already collapsed or been consumed by other planes. So the great wheel once existed, but has very few spokes left. Other than that I leave things pretty vague, as most people would have no idea beyond their own plane, and such things are the subject of great debate among scholars and sages in the world(s) that remain.

I just wanted to mention that I had an idea based on 'Gray goo' over the break as well. My idea was for a massive ooze that dominates an ancient maze, spilling out above it, expanded and shrinking a little each day like the tides of an ocean.

It's also got me thinking about a re-skinned version of changelings that are a a small part of the Great Gray Goo, much like Odo in DS9.

Anyway, it's a bit different from the plane of entropy you were talking about, but thought you might find it interesting, here's my initial sketch of the idea:


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## Lyxen (Jan 10, 2022)

Hussar said:


> There's a good example of what I meant. And, at the other end of 3e, you have Savage Tide Adventure Path, which the last third of the AP might as well be renamed Planescape Adventures.




Which, honestly, is great if you like Planescape and the Great Wheel, since there are very few adventures like this. Out of all the 5e modules publications, how many are really planar and based on the Great Wheel ? And how many supplements ?

Honestly, it's way worse for those who don't like the Forgotten Realms, since instead of the minority above, it's a large majority.



Hussar said:


> Look, I'll admit to just really not liking Planescape at all.  I really, really don't.  Which would be fine, except that Planescape is the basis for every planar monster, every module that deals with the planes, and everything else to do with the planes that gets released regardless of any other setting.
> 
> Oh, look, it's another demon type.  Cool.  Oh, look, a whole section on how it fits in the Blood War.  Gee, that's great.




Well, honestly again, this is mostly fluff, and apart from Eberron, there is no alternative planar setting, while there are many for adventures in general. And reskinning/refluffing is way easier for single entries than for complete adventures.

So I get that you don't like it, but it really does not seem all that bad compared to way worse situations in terms of adventures.


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## Li Shenron (Jan 10, 2022)

Hussar said:


> There's a good example of what I meant. And, at the other end of 3e, you have Savage Tide Adventure Path, which the last third of the AP might as well be renamed Planescape Adventures.
> 
> Look, I'll admit to just really not liking Planescape at all.  I really, really don't.  Which would be fine, except that Planescape is the basis for every planar monster, every module that deals with the planes, and everything else to do with the planes that gets released regardless of any other setting.
> 
> Oh, look, it's another demon type.  Cool.  Oh, look, a whole section on how it fits in the Blood War.  Gee, that's great.



I am a fan of Planescape because of the plane-hopping adventures and because of the philosophy factions, but certainly not because of the blood war.

I think the factions could be anyway easily used without the great wheel.


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## S'mon (Jan 10, 2022)

I don't think PCs or players need to know the campaign's cosmology. Personally I tend to use something like the 4e World Axis for my cosmology these days, but it's generally irrelevant in play.


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## Hussar (Jan 10, 2022)

Lyxen said:


> Which, honestly, is great if you like Planescape and the Great Wheel, since there are very few adventures like this. Out of all the 5e modules publications, how many are really planar and based on the Great Wheel ? And how many supplements ?
> 
> Honestly, it's way worse for those who don't like the Forgotten Realms, since instead of the minority above, it's a large majority.
> 
> ...




Better than Forgotten Realms seems a pretty low bar.


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## Lyxen (Jan 10, 2022)

Hussar said:


> Better than Forgotten Realms seems a pretty low bar.




I know, I know, I'll take everything I can have...


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## Bupp (Jan 11, 2022)

I think the Great Wheel suffers from the same ailment of early monster books.
If it has a different name in a different culture, it is a new thing.


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