# Why is the spiked chain so good?



## Kerrick

And what would you do to fix it?



> A spiked chain has reach, so you can strike opponents 10 feet away with it. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, it can be used against an adjacent foe.
> 
> You can make trip attacks with the chain. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the chain to avoid being tripped.
> 
> When using a spiked chain, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an opponent (including the roll to avoid being disarmed if such an attempt fails).
> 
> You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a spiked chain sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon for you.


----------



## StreamOfTheSky

I'd do nothing to "fix" it.  It's one of the few exotic weapons actually worth a feat.

As to why it's so good, it's not useful for sheer damage output.  It's goood because a Fighter can handle that just fine already.  It lets a Fighter easily do all kinds of other stuff: threaten every square out to double his normal reach (best used with enlarge), trip at range (including stopping an enemy charge dead with the aoo for reach), +2 disarm as well as the two-handed bonus (note: disarming a prone foe is effectively another +8 bonus), and using dex to hit (not that important to me; you 2H to add massive str to the damage, usually).  Also, now for some builds, it's worth it to get Shadow Blade, adding your dex to damage on top of strength x1.5

So, it's good for the same reason a whip (the only other core exotic weapon "worth it") is good: it lets you do all kinds of tricks you couldn't with a greatsword.


----------



## Darklone

Power attacking halfling with spiked chain: More damage than humans = pain.


----------



## pawsplay

It's not that strong. What it does is give you options. You can't exercise them all at the same time, though. It's finessable, but if you go for high Dex, lower Str, it's no good for tripping. You can use it for tripping, but if you have to drop it, you lose your threatned squares. It's really not that great, it just has an edge over conventional weapons, like other exotic weapons.


----------



## Elder-Basilisk

There is a simple reason that the spiked chain is too good: the exotic weapon master prestige class. The flurry of blows ability gives a spiked chain wielder an extra attack which scores full two handed power attack damage and that wielders of other weapons cannot duplicate.

How to fix it?
1. Ban the exotic weapon master prestige class
2. Open it up to non-exotic weapons and let flurry of blows work with anything.

Absent the exotic weapon master prestige class, the spiked chain is a silly weapon that gives you marginally more flexibility than the alternatives at the cost of a feat and marginally reduced offensive ability.


----------



## Jeff Wilder

I spoke to Jonathan Tweet at GenCon one year over breakfast, and he told me the spiked chain was his addition to the rules, and that he considered it hands-down the best weapon in the game.  (He considered the greatsword to be second-best.)  I didn't really ask him if he thought it was "too good," though.

Personally, I see -- and am guilty of -- much more cheese with the greatsword.  Not that you can't get cheesy with the spiked chain, but it just doesn't seem as _acceptable_ as greatsword-cheese somehow, so nobody does it in our group.


----------



## Kerrick

Hmm. I always hear people complain that the spiked chain is far and away the best weapon in the game, that it's overpowered, blah blah blah... I'm thinking about removing the Finesse component because it weighs 10 pounds, far more than any other finessable weapon.

Question: is a monk build with a spiked chain (we'll say pure monk) overpowered? I mean, core rules only... can it be too much?


----------



## Jack Simth

Kerrick said:
			
		

> Hmm. I always hear people complain that the spiked chain is far and away the best weapon in the game, that it's overpowered, blah blah blah... I'm thinking about removing the Finesse component because it weighs 10 pounds, far more than any other finessable weapon.
> 
> Question: is a monk build with a spiked chain (we'll say pure monk) overpowered? I mean, core rules only... can it be too much?



1) Monk Builds, especially Core monk builds, generally aren't broken period (except, perhaps, in the "too weak" sense).
2) Monk can't flurry with a Spiked Chain in Core.

So no, not broken for a pure Core monk.


----------



## frankthedm

What makes the spike chain too good is 'threatening reach', as 4E would describe it. 

Simply rule that the Spiked Chain works much like a whip's reach, you can melee attack at a distance, can strike adjacent, but no extra 'AoO threatened area' beyond what you have coming for your size. If you want to throw the chain a bone after this, allow some of the following

Strike out to 15' [as whip] (Double natural reach +5')
Also can be used as a non reach double weapon. 
Also can be used as a grapnel
Damage Type can be switched to 'Bludgeoning'.
Can take advantage of whatever 'garroting' rules the campaign uses.


----------



## Hawken

Regarding the OP:

I would make the following changes: 

1) On a successful Trip attack, the weapon inflicts 1d4 damage (no bonuses or extra damage since you're not making an "attack"). --A spiked anything wrapping around someone's leg or striking someone's leg with enough force to sweep is going to hurt. 

2) No bonus damage for 2-H weapon from Str, just keep it at X1. --Just because you have to hold the thing with two hands doesn't mean you're putting the power of two hands into the swing. 

All the illustrations I've seen show one hand stabilizing or controlling the chain while the other throws or aims it. To me, that makes it a "one handed weapon that you have to hold in 2 hands", just like a bow. You have to use two hands to operate a bow, but you don't get X1.5 Str for damage with it, same principal. 

3) I would not allow it to "break" a charge. If someone is charging, sure, AoO as normal, but I would have an exception to this weapon that unless it is used to Trip the person charging it is not going to stop a charge. Or rule that if the attack is successful, the charging person is knocked to either side of the chain wielder.

4) Change the threat range from "double" to "extends threat range by +5'". This prevents excess and potential for abuse from Enlarge effects and similar situations. If an effect, such as Enlarge, doubles threat range, fine. Your range is doubled, (from 5' to 10' for a Med going to Lg), then using the spiked chain increases that by an extra 5'; so, 15' threat range.


----------



## phindar

The main point of contention I've seen with the spiked chain in my group had to do with a character that used it with his Improved Disarm, Improved Trip feats.  Without getting into the balance side of it, I know that for the GM, it was really, really annoying.

Recently, as a character I faced a group of monks who had gone the Imp Trip route, and it made for a nightmarish couple of rounds.  Fine in small doses, but I could see how it would get old fast.  It made me think back to that old game, and I could see why the GM would get frustrated.  Basically, any humanoidish-type monster (something that relied on using a weapon or standing) either had to be built to withstand disarms and trips, or was effectively neutered.  (Disarm is easier to get around than trip, a locking gauntlet being an easy item to toss in, but trip is a bit thornier.)

As a weapon that can threaten adjacent and at Reach, the spiked chain is a good buy for an Exotic Wpn.  If you wanted to limit it, you could throw in move-equivilent action to switch between its Reach and Non-Reach quality, but honestly that just seems nit-picky to me.  

For my money, if Imp Trip and Disarm were "fixed" (hey, that's another thread), a lot of the spiked chain's seeming offensiveness would disappear.  At least, that's how I saw it in my group.  YMMV.


----------



## moritheil

There are - without exaggeration - at least a dozen other threads on this that may also be helpful.  Most of these explanations surfaced then, and some of them were handled in much greater detail in previous threads.


----------



## Kerrick

> I would make the following changes:
> 
> 1) On a successful Trip attack, the weapon inflicts 1d4 damage (no bonuses or extra damage since you're not making an "attack"). --A spiked anything wrapping around someone's leg or striking someone's leg with enough force to sweep is going to hurt.



Hmm... makes sense, but wouldn't that be giving it an added bonus?



> 2) No bonus damage for 2-H weapon from Str, just keep it at X1. --Just because you have to hold the thing with two hands doesn't mean you're putting the power of two hands into the swing.
> 
> All the illustrations I've seen show one hand stabilizing or controlling the chain while the other throws or aims it. To me, that makes it a "one handed weapon that you have to hold in 2 hands", just like a bow. You have to use two hands to operate a bow, but you don't get X1.5 Str for damage with it, same principal.



That makes sense too - the chain's a finessable weapon, so I think it would be like a light weapon - too light to effectively get your full Strength bonus.



> 3) I would not allow it to "break" a charge. If someone is charging, sure, AoO as normal, but I would have an exception to this weapon that unless it is used to Trip the person charging it is not going to stop a charge. Or rule that if the attack is successful, the charging person is knocked to either side of the chain wielder.



I didn't know you could break a charge with a chain...



> 4) Change the threat range from "double" to "extends threat range by +5'". This prevents excess and potential for abuse from Enlarge effects and similar situations. If an effect, such as Enlarge, doubles threat range, fine. Your range is doubled, (from 5' to 10' for a Med going to Lg), then using the spiked chain increases that by an extra 5'; so, 15' threat range.



I'm not sure where you're getting "doubles threat range" - if that were the case, a whip would triple it, which is simply not true. Reach increases by 5 ft. per size, so an ogre (Large) using a chain would have a 15-ft. reach.



> For my money, if Imp Trip and Disarm were "fixed" (hey, that's another thread), a lot of the spiked chain's seeming offensiveness would disappear. At least, that's how I saw it in my group. YMMV.



Yeah, I think that's the main problem people have with it. Paizo's done a good job of making all the combat maneuvers much more useful and balanced - I've yoinked their rules.


----------



## Corsair

The problem isn't the chain (as you can do many of the same tricks with one of the other reach weapons + armor spikes, and save yourself a feat).  The problem is that if you build someone to trip or disarm, they will completely overwhelm any humanoid type enemy not specifically prepared to counter the tactic.


----------



## StreamOfTheSky

@Kerrick:
As for reach, you're thinking of 3.0 and Arcana Evolved.  Perhaps Paizo, too (I know nothing of that).  These systems have reach weapons adding +5 ft to your reach and leaving the first 5 ft around you the area you cannot attack (unless it's a spiked chain or similar reach weapon).
3.5, on the other hand, has reach weapons literally doubling your natural reach and making your entire natural reach the "no attack zone."  Thus, a large giant with a longspear threatens out to 20 ft, but not the 10 ft around himself (with the spear, if he has natural attacks, spiked guantlets, etc... he can).  A whip doesn't follow these rules because it's oddly treated as a ranged weapon, not a reach melee weapon, so it's always a static +15 ft.  So, a Human w/ Enlarge Person and a spiked chain takes up a 10 ft space and threatens a 20 ft radius around himself, tripping and disarming in an area larger than the wizard's fireball (when you count the space he takes up).  Hence why he effectively is using "battlefield control," a term normally used for stuff like Evard's Black Tentacles type spells.

@Hawkin:
Kerrick's right on the first change.
On removing the 2H str bonus, why not just remove the finesse?  A high str is more useful anyway, for bonuses to damage, trip, and disarm.  I always found the finesse thing unnecessary (though my dex 20 whisper gnome swordsage liked it).  Scrap that if having both is conflicting.
On rule #3, what?  A spiked chain breaks a charge on an aoo by either a) killing the person, simple enough; b) tripping them, as you could with any tripping reach weapon or sheer natural reach; c) Disarming, which can be done with any reach weapon or long reach + unarmed, but is an inferior option since charge is (I rule, at least) adding +2 to their opposed attack roll; d) using some other option via class feature or feat, like Stand Still.  There's no need for rules to stop a piked chain from breaking a charge, because all the things it can do to break one apply to every other long reach aoo, generally.
For #4, as long as that's a universal rule, not just to screw over spiked chain, sure.  I honestly prefer doing it 3.0 like that myself, likewise for weapons tables.


----------



## phindar

I'd be more inclined to consider it a Light Weapon, and leave it at that.  I think a lot of the Spiked Chain's perceived unbalance comes from it being the best weapon across the board.  If you take away the 2-hand Power Attack benefit, it still remains a very versatile weapon without also being a high damage weapon.


----------



## Hypersmurf

phindar said:
			
		

> I'd be more inclined to consider it a Light Weapon, and leave it at that.




So it's now a Light exotic weapon dealing 2d4 damage and usable at 5 and 10 feet?

I'll take two.

-Hyp.


----------



## Felix

phindar said:
			
		

> I think a lot of the Spiked Chain's perceived unbalance comes from it being the best weapon across the board.



Substandard base damage.
Substandard criticals.
Feat intensive.
Worst damage type (piercing).

It is not the best weapon across the board.


----------



## Legildur

Felix said:
			
		

> Substandard base damage.
> Substandard criticals.
> Feat intensive.
> Worst damage type (piercing).
> 
> It is not the best weapon across the board.



Agreed. Although I'm not sure if my DM would agree with when my optimised spiked-chain wielder disarmed a Hill Giant wielding a two-handed maul.... and the DM rolled a natural 20 on the opposed disarm check (and yes, factored in size and weapon-size bonuses).  Mind you, I wasn't silly enough to try and trip him... that has a measurably lesser chance of success.

But yeah, no where as much damage as the longsword-wielding elf fighter, or the hammer-wielding dwarf fighter.  And his survivability (particularly with no shield) is low with a crappy AC.


----------



## phindar

I wouldn't change anything about it other than to consider it a Light Weapon (it'll still be two-handed), although now that you mention it, I think a Dex-based TWF who wielded two chains would be less annoying than one who wielded one two handed and got the 2-hand Power Attack damage.

"The best weapon across the board" was in reference to it's use in maneuvers, and granted, I could have made that more clear.  Being a 2-handed weapon gives it a +4 on Disarm and Sunder attempts, making it a light weapon would basically negate this.  The weapon would retain it's +2 on rolls to Disarm, making it an okay weapon for someone who was going that route, but not game-breaking.  (I mean, anytime a particular weapon/feat combo makes the GM think _I can't use any monsters that have weapons or stand up_, then it might be over the top.) 

For my money, I think the Trip build is more annoying than the Disarm build (not that most spiked chain fighters don't do both), if for no other reason than more monsters stand than use weapons.  Even if you can't use Power Attack with the chain, there's still plenty of incentive to make a STR based character who uses one.  

As it is, Power Attack and Imp Trip is essentially 8 free points of damage, since the Trip is a touch attack to begin (probably doesn't hurt to give up Attack Bonus on that), an opposed STR check to trip the opponent (PA doesn't penalize), and then a free attack at +4 for striking a prone target, basically what you would have to roll to hit the standing monster if you didn't use Power Attack.  Plus the monster will either have to provoke when it stands or crawls away, or will attack from prone at -4.  (I think this is also level dependent, and at the higher levels the PC's routinely face much larger, much higher strength opponents that are much harder to trip.  Trip really stands out below 10th level, and will seem like a bigger deal if that's where most of your games take place.)  

If you think the Spiked Chain is fine the way it is, then I wouldn't expect any change to how it works to seem necessary.  But, if you think the Spiked Chain is unbalancing (either in the "game-destroying" or simply "too good for the cost" sense), then I think considering it a Light weapon you wield 2-handed would be a fairly simple limitation to impose.

Although, I do stand by my original comment that the problem isn't so much with the Spiked Chain as it is with the way the Combat Maneuvers are written.  I houseruled those in my game and having done that, I honestly wouldn't have a problem with any character wielding a Spiked Chain as written.


----------



## Hypersmurf

phindar said:
			
		

> Being a 2-handed weapon gives it a +4 on Disarm and Sunder attempts, making it a light weapon would basically negate this.




It wouldn't just negate the bonus; it also imposes a -4 penalty.

The difference between a two-handed weapon and a light weapon is 8 points, for Sunder and Disarm.

-Hyp.


----------



## Herzog

I think Phindar means making it a light, two-handed weapon would mean both a +4 (for two-handed) and -4 (for being light) on the Disarm and Sunder attempts.

Herzog


----------



## Kat'

phindar said:
			
		

> For my money, I think the Trip build is more annoying than the Disarm build (not that most spiked chain fighters don't do both), if for no other reason than more monsters stand than use weapons.




Well, there are still a lot of monsters that are hard to trip. Those with four legs or more, those with no legs at all (can you trip a Purple worm?), those with flight...


----------



## Rackhir

Another thing is that at medium-high levels lots of monsters have greater than or equal reach to that provided by the spiked chain, which negates the reach advantage.

The spiked-chain seems mostly to me, to only be "too good" if you permit pcs to run things like a large creature that's enlarged all the time. We've had a character using a spiked chain in Shil's campaign from 3rd to 16th lvl and he's never been overpowered. If anything he's one of the weakest members of the party.

So in actual usage, I just have not seen the spiked chain being overpowered.


----------



## Kerrick

The boards ate the post I tried to make yesterday, so let's do this again - hopefully it'll take this time.



> As for reach, you're thinking of 3.0 and Arcana Evolved. Perhaps Paizo, too (I know nothing of that). These systems have reach weapons adding +5 ft to your reach and leaving the first 5 ft around you the area you cannot attack (unless it's a spiked chain or similar reach weapon).



I'm not sure how Paizo does it - I don't think I've seen it come up yet. They do have a really good system for handling disarm, trip, etc., though - they condensed all the opposed rolls into one roll called a CMB (combat maneuver bonus), which is your BAB + Str + size mod* vs. DC = 15 + opponent's CMB. Obviously this needs a bit of work - the base DC is too high (drop it to 10) and the size mods too low (double them) - but it's a pretty good system, and it makes grappling SO much easier.

*Size mod is much lower - +1 for Large, then +2, +4, etc.

I didn't realize that 3.5 flat out doubled the reach, but I came up with an idea - a reach weapon increases the creature's reach by 150%, instead of 200% (round up). So, a Medium creature still has a reach of 10 ft., a Large is 15, a Huge 25, Gargantuan 30, and Colossal 45. This is much more than simply extending it by 5 ft. (imagine a storm giant waving around a toothpick) but much less than double the reach. (What they actually did wasn't "double the reach", but increased the reach by 5 ft. per size over Medium - it just happens to double.)

I was going to combine this with another rule - you can make attacks within the range of your natural reach with the butt of a reach weapon (polearm or longspear), but it deals damage as a staff and you suffer a -4 penalty.



> I think Phindar means making it a light, two-handed weapon would mean both a +4 (for two-handed) and -4 (for being light) on the Disarm and Sunder attempts.



Light weapons and 2-handed weapons are totally different things. You can wield a Light weapon with two hands, but you won't get anything out of it. You cannot, however, make a weapon Light AND 2-handed.


----------



## phindar

The chain would be an exception.  You also can't Finesse a non-light weapon by the rules; the exceptions are listed in the weapon description.  Instead of reading, "You can Finesse the Spiked Chain even though it is not a light weapon," it would be, "The Spiked Chain is a Light Weapon that must be wielded with two hands."


----------



## Bad Paper

*my proposed change*

The thing I have always hated about the spiked chain is that it never really existed out here in the real world, presumably because it's so impractical.  Think about the comic misuse of nunchaku that leads to hitting yourself in the face.  Can you imagine that with a spiked chain?

That being said, I suggest any roll of a natural 1 on a spiked-chain attack results in the wielder getting a critical hit...on himself.


----------



## Hypersmurf

phindar said:
			
		

> The chain would be an exception.  You also can't Finesse a non-light weapon by the rules; the exceptions are listed in the weapon description.  Instead of reading, "You can Finesse the Spiked Chain even though it is not a light weapon," it would be, "The Spiked Chain is a Light Weapon that must be wielded with two hands."




You can do that, but it still ends up with a -4 penalty to Sunder and a -2 penalty to Disarm (-4 for being light, +2 bonus to disarm checks).

Wielding with two hands doesn't give a +4 bonus; wielding a two-handed weapon does.




			
				Kerrick said:
			
		

> I didn't realize that 3.5 flat out doubled the reach, but I came up with an idea - a reach weapon increases the creature's reach by 150%, instead of 200% (round up). So, a Medium creature still has a reach of 10 ft., a Large is 15, a Huge 25, Gargantuan 30, and Colossal 45.




If you increase a Large creature's reach by 150%, it goes from 10 feet to 25 feet.  I suspect you mean increase it by 50%.

-Hyp.


----------



## phindar

hyp said:
			
		

> Wielding with two hands doesn't give a +4 bonus; wielding a two-handed weapon does.



Which, if it were a two-handed light weapon, it would.  Granted, this makes it an exception to the general rule about light weapons, but it already is (in that it is a non-light, two-hand weapon that can be Finessed).

That is separate from the issue that I've never been sold on the difference between a two-handed weapon and a weapon wielded with two hands.  But once that discussion starts up, we're no longer arguing about the Spiked Chain and should really continue on in a different topic.

Now, if you say the Spiked Chain is fine and doesn't need fixing, I can respect that.  Or if you say the Spiked Chain is horribly broken and making it a Light Weapon doesn't go far enough, I can respect that as well.  (As I said, I perceived the problem to be with the combat maneuvers and in house-ruling that I never had another issue with the Spiked Chain.)

I am responding primarily to the OP, in that making the Spiked Chain a 2-Handed Light Weapon (as opposed to a 2-Handed Non-Light Finessable Weapon) is a fairly minor change that I think will remove some of the balance issues surrounding the weapon. 

The things that annoyed my GM the most in regards to the Spiked Chain was that it was almost impossible for that character to fail at tripping or disarming any opponent that wasn't specifically designed around avoiding trip or disarms, and that in addition to being a very versatile weapon in maneuvers, combined with Power Attack the chain-fighter was also doing the most damage (on the "free 8 points of damage" program I detailed above).  Making the Spiked Chain a 2-Hand Light Weapon solves those specific problems.  

If the complaint is the solution isn't RAW, I would say, "Yeah.  It's a house rule."


----------



## Hypersmurf

phindar said:
			
		

> Which, if it were a two-handed light weapon, it would.




There's no such thing.

_Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon’s size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon._

A melee weapon is a light weapon, or a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.

Your use of the phrase "two-handed light weapon" is like saying "He's a Large Medium creature", or "He's a Humanoid Dragon", or "He's Chaotic Lawful Good".

If it's a light weapon, it's not a two-handed weapon.  If it's a light weapon with a special rule that it must be wielded in two hands, it's not a two-handed weapon.

-Hyp.


----------



## phindar

> There's no such thing.



There would be now, since I just made it up.  This is my last post on the subject, because honestly, I feel I am simply repeating myself.

For the purposes of this house rule (to address the specific balance issues I have listed in the posts above), the Spiked Chain is a special weapon.  It's considered a Light Weapon that is wielded with two hands.

This keeps the trip/disarm/sunder bonuses from getting out of control (since the effectively cancel each other out, leaving the chain with a +2 to disarm), removes Power Attack from the equation, and it still threatens adjacent and at Reach which is the main benefit of the weapon.


----------



## Hypersmurf

phindar said:
			
		

> For the purposes of this house rule (to address the specific balance issues I have listed in the posts above), the Spiked Chain is a special weapon.  It's considered a Light Weapon that is wielded with two hands.




There's nothing wrong with that.



> This keeps the trip/disarm/sunder bonuses from getting out of control (since the effectively cancel each other out, leaving the chain with a +2 to disarm)




... that's where your problem comes in.  There is nothing to cancel the penalty, since wielding a Light weapon in two hands doesn't give a +4 bonus.

What you need to do is say "A spiked chain is a light weapon.  It must be wielded in two hands.  It gains a +4 bonus to Sunder and a +6 bonus to Disarm."

_Now_, you have some bonuses to cancel out the -4 penalty for being a light weapon.

-Hyp.


----------



## Kerrick

> If you increase a Large creature's reach by 150%, it goes from 10 feet to 25 feet. I suspect you mean increase it by 50%.



Uh... yeah. That's what I meant.


----------



## Kerrick

> If you increase a Large creature's reach by 150%, it goes from 10 feet to 25 feet. I suspect you mean increase it by 50%.



Uh... yeah. That's what I meant.



> That is separate from the issue that I've never been sold on the difference between a two-handed weapon and a weapon wielded with two hands.



A two-handed weapon is a weapon that MUST be wielded with both hands - it's specifically designed that way. A one-handed weapon is designed to be used in one hand (duh), but CAN be used with both. Since it's not designed to take advantage of two-handed use, however, it doesn't grant double Strength bonus like a true two-handed weapon.

A spiked chain is a corner case - it requires two hands to be wielded properly (because it's so big), but technically you're only using one hand to attack with it - you're holding one end with one hand, and lashing out with the other. If you've ever seen Kill Bill 2, I'm thinking it's similar to the Japanese girl's ball and chain (I can't remember her name - she was O-Ren's bodyguard), except that you lash with it, like a whip. So it'd require two hands to use, you don't get the double Strength bonus, but you CAN finesse it like a whip.

So all that's left, really, is to drop the auto-attack with Imp Trip, change the special size bonus for the opposed check, and I think it'd work just great.


----------



## Kaisoku

Both Two-Handed weapons, and One-handed weapons used with two hands, get the 1.5x Strength damage and 2x conversion from Power Attack.

There is literally no other place, other than in Disarm, that Two-handed weapons are differentiated from a One-handed weapon held in two hands, and even then it's only a differentiation through omission. It's quite possible the rule was written by someone who simply thought it was implied in the rest of the rules that it was the same thing.

The question really is then...
Does a Two-Handed weapon get this +4 bonus because it's a "big weapon", and a Light weapon get the -4 penalty because it's a "smaller weapon"? Or is it because it's being held in two hands?



As for the Spiked Chain itself, it's given up quite a bit of damage capability (two steps lower than the Greatsword or Greataxe) AND costs an extra feat in order to gain the reach capabilities and couple other bonuses.
Also, it has mixed bonuses... Finesse with a weapon that you'll want to pump your Strength as high as possible? If you go mostly Dex, you give up the extra damage from Two-Handed Strength bonus and give up bonuses to Tripping. Variety is a bonus, sure.. but not that big a deal.

My personal feelings are that Disarm and Trip bone characters not built to defend against them in core rules, and the Spiked Chain just happens to be a smart choice for either tactics.

Honestly, you can pick up a Guisarme and get nearly the same benefits as a Trip Monkey anyways. Grab Short Haft if you are really REALLY wanting to use it for close quarters combat.. otherwise some spiked gauntlets are easily accessible. The Spiked Chain gives up that extra x3 crit damage to have an additional +2 Disarm (and the largely unused Finesse in the Trip builds).


If you go with the new Pathfinder rules (adding BAB to the check instead of a straight Strength check, and automatic 15+mods for the defender, lesser size bonus, and nerfed Imp Trip feat), you are already making the Trip/Disarm tactic less overpowered options.
You can allow or deny any overly ridiculous PrCs at your choice too (Weapon Master).


Lastly, do we really need to nerf the Fighter while the flying, greater invisible Wizard is tossing (insert whatever save the target is weakest again) spells around? Really?


----------



## pawsplay

Elder-Basilisk said:
			
		

> There is a simple reason that the spiked chain is too good: the exotic weapon master prestige class. The flurry of blows ability gives a spiked chain wielder an extra attack which scores full two handed power attack damage and that wielders of other weapons cannot duplicate.




Well, that makes it suck slightly less. A few points:

- You've got a fairly weak AC, because you have no shield and do not benefit from the heavier armors. Until you get an animated shield and mithril armor, life will be hard.
- Power Attack already has diminishing returns. Slapping another -2 to hit on top of the for another attack may or may not help.
- Elusive Target.
- There are a variety of monsters that will mess you up. The Rust Monster, Black Pudding, and Hydra spring to mind.
- You've already spent feats on EWP, Weapon Focus, and Power Attack. What do you do for ranged attacks?
- Greater Manyshot is way more impressive in terms of extra damage.


----------



## Kerrick

> The question really is then...
> Does a Two-Handed weapon get this +4 bonus because it's a "big weapon", and a Light weapon get the -4 penalty because it's a "smaller weapon"?



I would say so. Light weapons sized for a Medium creature are considered Tiny; one-handed weapons are Medium; and two-handed weapons are Large. Therefore, they probably assigned the same modifiers for weapon size as they did for monster size.



> My personal feelings are that Disarm and Trip bone characters not built to defend against them in core rules, and the Spiked Chain just happens to be a smart choice for either tactics.



So... you think the feats are overpowered, and the chain just adds to it?



> If you go with the new Pathfinder rules (adding BAB to the check instead of a straight Strength check, and automatic 15+mods for the defender, lesser size bonus, and nerfed Imp Trip feat), you are already making the Trip/Disarm tactic less overpowered options.



I'm using a modified form of the PF rules - DC 15 + mods is way too high, and doesn't fit the standard 10 + mods formula, so I dropped it to 10. And what's wrong with making them "less overpowered"? If they're overpowered in the first place, they NEED to be nerfed. If they're relatively balanced, they'll see much more use by both sides without people bitching about it, and that's a win in my book - I like seeing people do stuff besides "I swing at the ogre with my sword".



> Lastly, do we really need to nerf the Fighter while the flying, greater invisible Wizard is tossing (insert whatever save the target is weakest again) spells around? Really?



I know this isn't really relevant to this discussion, but don't worry - the spells are getting a good lookover too.


----------



## Hypersmurf

Kerrick said:
			
		

> I would say so. Light weapons sized for a Medium creature are considered Tiny; one-handed weapons are Medium; and two-handed weapons are Large. Therefore, they probably assigned the same modifiers for weapon size as they did for monster size.




_A weapon’s size category isn’t the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon’s size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder._

In general, for weapons sized for a Medium creature, Light->Tiny, One-Handed->Small, Two-Handed->Medium.

-Hyp.


----------



## Kerrick

> In general, for weapons sized for a Medium creature, Light->Tiny, One-Handed->Small, Two-Handed->Medium.



Oops. I read that paragraph too, but I was posting from memory. Shame on me.


----------



## Kaisoku

Kerrick said:
			
		

> So... you think the feats are overpowered, and the chain just adds to it?




No. I think the core rules mechanics for things like Disarm and Trip are already designed in such a way that anyone not focused on defending against them are going to be hurt inordinately by them.

It becomes a binary system essentially, and this is beyond the problem with the Improved Trip feat.

It's an aspect of the game that could be tweaked to make it so it can be used more often.




			
				Kerrick said:
			
		

> I'm using a modified form of the PF rules - DC 15 + mods is way too high, and doesn't fit the standard 10 + mods formula, so I dropped it to 10. And what's wrong with making them "less overpowered"? If they're overpowered in the first place, they NEED to be nerfed. If they're relatively balanced, they'll see much more use by both sides without people bitching about it, and that's a win in my book - I like seeing people do stuff besides "I swing at the ogre with my sword".




I think you misunderstood here. I was saying that what Pathfinder is doing IS nerfing the mechanics on a whole. I agree with this. This is a good thing. Like you said, it'll see more use.

However, my point was that you don't need to also Neuter the Spiked Chain so completely. It has one thing over other reach weapons: useable in close quarters.

If you were to give a feat that allows reach weapons to be used within close quarters, it loses it's power. And if spending a feat (exotic weapon proficiency) is okay in that direction, then spending a feat on a more open version of Short Haft should work just as well.


Now, Improved Trip had the issue (similar to Spiked Chain) that it was clearly the better choice over the other feats because it gave the free attack. Basically it was no longer a choice of just "damage or tactic", rather "tactic, then damage".

I'd like to go one step further and give the option (in some form.. Fighter only, expanding the feat trees, etc), to allow all combat tactics to do damage AND the tactic. If you make it a Fighter thing, then it gives them something a bit more unique and actually "fightery" too.




			
				Kerrick said:
			
		

> I know this isn't really relevant to this discussion, but don't worry - the spells are getting a good lookover too.




Save or Die vs Save or take 100+ damage isn't much different. But still, scry and fry, teleport, fly, greater invisibility... there's a lot of things you'd have to nerf before you could make the Wizard more like the Fighter.

And by then, you'd have 4e anyways, so whats the point? Give the Fighter his powerful options is all I'm saying, instead of nerfing something that doesn't even come close to what other powerhouses can still do in the modified PRPG rules.


----------

