# [XPH] Psion versus Wizard/Sorcerer



## Thanee (Apr 18, 2004)

Hey!

EDIT: *Click HERE for a more elaborate summary!*

What do you think about the balance between the new expanded Psionics Handbook and the existing arcane casters?

I must admit, that I havn't looked through everything yet, but what I have seen leaves me shuddering.

Psions seem extremely overpowered in comparison.

From a rough estimation, they have...

* As much powers per day as wizards have spells per day, if they distribute evenly.
* Many more high level powers per day than any other caster, if they choose so.
* Equal or more powers known as sorcerers.
* Always more high level powers known as sorcerers.
* In addition, low level powers that scale to high level powers, thus even more.
* Quicker high level access compared to sorcerers (as wizard).
* Bonus Feats, as wizard.
* Int as their primary stat, as wizard.
* Powers that are one-by-one more powerful than compareable spells.
* An about equally broad selection of powers as the arcane casters have spells.

So they basically get the best of both worlds plus some goodies like armor and no verbal/somatic compoments.

Tell me, how this is balanced, please? 

What have I overlooked?

Bye
Thanee


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## glass (Apr 18, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> * As much powers per day as wizards have spells per day, if they distribute evenly.
> * Many more high level powers per day than any other caster, if they choose so.
> * Equal or more powers known as sorcerers.
> * Always more high level powers known as sorcerers.
> ...




I don't have the XPH yet, so I can't really comment, except to say, wow: do they really get all that? I think I want to play a psion now   


glass.


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## Thanee (Apr 18, 2004)

Browsing through the item section... Psionatrices (+1 DC items for 8k are a joke in the DC bonus free 3.5 environment) and the horrible Torc which decreases all Power costs by one PP (for a way too low cost still) are still there...

Bye
Thanee


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## warpmind (Apr 18, 2004)

Hmm... I think the whole unbalancing comes from the fact that sorcerers are (IMO) underpowered when compared to wizards, so if psions are now similar in power to wizards, the sorcerers remain in the bottom of the power pyramid. 

  I have thought on giving sorcs 4+Int skill ranks per level and Con-based magic, but this is just hommade rules fixing.


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## Thanee (Apr 18, 2004)

I believe, that psions are a lot stronger than wizards as well.

I find the balance between sorcerer and wizard quite fair, actually.
Spontaneous casting is a huge benefit!

But psions have that (even better than that) and also all the benefits of the wizard class, with the sole exception of being able to add more powers simply by copying from written work.

Bye
Thanee


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## warpmind (Apr 18, 2004)

Do psions still have 4+Int skill ranks per level? This should have been nerfed, given the shift to Int as primary ability.


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## Dinkeldog (Apr 18, 2004)

Psions get 2+Int skill ranks per level.

Also, psionics still don't scale with manifester level for free like arcane and divine magic do.  I think that's huge.


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## Particle_Man (Apr 18, 2004)

Also, many of the powers are not as good as the equivalent spells.  Catfall, in psionics, is like Feather Fall but only protects you for 10 feet per point you put in it, and you can only put in as many points as you have levels in the class.  Also, some of the powers don't augment (scale) at all.


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## Thanee (Apr 18, 2004)

Particle_Man said:
			
		

> Also, many of the powers are not as good as the equivalent spells.




Most of those I have looked up so far, are as good if not better.

The non-automatic scaling, which Dinkeldog mentioned, is an issue, of course. Hard to say, if this is balanced by the fact, that you can scale many powers up to 9th level and generally are able to manifest more higher level powers. I'd see it as a pretty small disadvantage only.

So your 10th level Energy Ball still does 5d6 as a "3rd level power", but the Fireball does 10d6. OTOH the Energy Ball can be scaled to 10d6 with higher DC and a multitude of other benefits. Now at 15th level, the Fireball still does 10d6 and you are able to deal 15d6 with corresponding high DC and many other benefits still, all with the same power.

In some occasions (like psionic weapon) you need to spend more PP to get the same result, that's true.

Bye
Thanee


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## Urbanmech (Apr 18, 2004)

> Now at 15th level, the Fireball still does 10d6 and you are able to deal 15d6 with corresponding high DC and many other benefits still, all with the same power.




Sure the Sorcerers Fireball still does 10d6, but it only costs him a 3rd level spell slot.  For the Psion to scale the Energy Ball up to 15d5 it would cost 15 power points, the equal to an 8th level spell slot.  For just a 5th level spell slot the Sorcerer could have empowered their Fireball doing effectively 15d6 damage for 3 spell levels less.

Psions NEED all the extra power points just to keep their lower level powers competitive.  They really need to augument their lower level powers to make them stay useful.  

Where sorcerers and wizards really seem to win is in scalable buffing spells.  A 16th level wizard can use a 3rd level spell to give a companion a +4 weapon for 16 hours.  The psion can't make a +4 weapon till 17th level and it takes them 17 power points to do the same thing as a wizards 3rd level spell.  I think once people have taken the psion out for a spin it will show that they are very versitle but really don't pack more of a punch than a wizard.


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## Thanee (Apr 18, 2004)

Urbanmech said:
			
		

> Sure the Sorcerers Fireball still does 10d6, but it only costs him a 3rd level spell slot.  For the Psion to scale the Energy Ball up to 15d5 it would cost 15 power points, the equal to an 8th level spell slot.  For just a 5th level spell slot the Sorcerer could have empowered their Fireball doing effectively 15d6 damage for 3 spell levels less.




With a +5 DC and several other benefits as well. 

And seriously who casts empowered fireballs at level 15 still? You need bigger guns at that level!



> Psions NEED all the extra power points just to keep their lower level powers competitive.  They really need to augument their lower level powers to make them stay useful.




Yep. Won't argue that point.



> Where sorcerers and wizards really seem to win is in scalable buffing spells.  A 16th level wizard can use a 3rd level spell to give a companion a +4 weapon for 16 hours.  The psion can't make a +4 weapon till 17th level and it takes them 17 power points to do the same thing as a wizards 3rd level spell.  I think once people have taken the psion out for a spin it will show that they are very versitle but really don't pack more of a punch than a wizard.




The problem I see here is, that psions will simply stay away from those spells that are clearly inferior (or much more expensive to be competitive) and focus on their strengths. So the weaknesses do not balance out the strengths, since they won't show up that much.

And really can you honestly tell me, that a psion is not completely superior to a sorcerer?

Bye
Thanee


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## Darklone (Apr 18, 2004)

I didn't read everything yet, but do you think the (as far as I read) huge amount of powers that are "free" or immediate actions by themselves will skew the balance even further?

IMHO the psionic feats are much better than all the metamagic ones.


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## reiella (Apr 18, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> * Bonus Feats, as wizard.




Not sure on that.

Their 1st level bonus feat replaces the "familiar".
But do the psions get a encode stone at first automatically as well (ie, Scribe Scroll)?

For the augmenting powers/etc you have to remember the psionics pp cap...  The given example of the energy ball is only possible at 15th level (and you made quite a good point, who would be still using that at 15th, you need bigger guns .  [ Of course you can overchannel, which risks damage, and requires feats to 'perform safely. ]

And wouldn't surprise me at all if Psions are > Wizards.  343 power points at 20 (which does come out roughly to be the amount of power points needed to manifest each of their powers known at max augmentation 1/day I believe).

[ Add ]
I'd be interested in comparing against the Cleric, because it may balanced against that general 'power level'.


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## MeepoTheMighty (Apr 18, 2004)

One balancing factor is that metapsionic feats require you to expend your focus, so you'll most likely only have the chance to use them once per combat.



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> Browsing through the item section... Psionatrices (+1 DC items for 8k are a joke in the DC bonus free 3.5 environment)



Remember that psions don't get the same benefit from Spell Focus that wizards can.  Like the metapsionic feats, Psionic Endowment requires you to expend your focus to raise the DC by 1.


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## Thanee (Apr 18, 2004)

reiella said:
			
		

> Their 1st level bonus feat replaces the "familiar".
> But do the psions get a encode stone at first automatically as well (ie, Scribe Scroll)?




They get the same bonus feats, just no Scribe Scroll. 



> For the augmenting powers/etc you have to remember the psionics pp cap...  The given example of the energy ball is only possible at 15th level (and you made quite a good point, who would be still using that at 15th, you need bigger guns .




The augmented energy ball _is_ an 8th level power!
The empowered fireball is well... an empowered 3rd level spell.



> And wouldn't surprise me at all if Psions are > Wizards.  343 power points at 20 (which does come out roughly to be the amount of power points needed to manifest each of their powers known at max augmentation 1/day I believe).




And that's just base PP, right?

If you add resonable PP bonus from stat (90 for Int 28 IIRC) and just divide by 16 (cost of a 9th level power by that level) you get 27!! That's 27 9th level manifestations per day (at the expense of lower level stuff, of course - they can swap out a few of those 9th level for plenty lower ones).

Wizards get... uhm... let's say 6 9th plus 6 8th plus 6 7th plus 6 6th... that's still not that many and a lot less powerful as well!

Bye
Thanee


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## questionmark (Apr 18, 2004)

This makes me really nervous, because our resident munchkin just bought the psionic book. I had thought that they would have fixed the balance issues for 3.5 and told him he could use it in our new campaign. Did i just shoot myself in the foot


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## Thanee (Apr 18, 2004)

MeepoTheMighty said:
			
		

> Remember that psions don't get the same benefit from Spell Focus that wizards can.  Like the metapsionic feats, Psionic Endowment requires you to expend your focus to raise the DC by 1.




Ok, that would make the Psionatrices fair at least, I guess. 

Bye
Thanee


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## reiella (Apr 18, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> They get the same bonus feats, just no Scribe Scroll.
> 
> The augmented energy ball _is_ an 8th level power!
> The empowered fireball is well... an empowered 3rd level spell.
> ...




The DC scaling part is .. a bit awkward, however, as mentioned, it is not an 8th level power (for "attack purposes" it may well be), and would get splattered by Globes in the default setting as was mentioned earlier.  Makes it awkward (and I kinda wish there were scaling caps ... like wizards/sorcs have).

Add in PP bonus from stats (Int Mod 9, Manifester Level 20 ~= 90).  Divide by 17 (adding items to balance equation for a class is a bad idea, for a reason I'll say later ).  Would it be fair to compare against a wizard specialist?  Given that the psion is a "forced specialist" [consider, psions simply have a larger universal school, but must give up 5 other schools in order to specialize].

Wizard @ 20 + 28 Int:
Lvl 20 : 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4
+Int   : 0/3/2/2/2/2/1/1/1/1
+Spec: 1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1
Total  : 5/8/7/7/7/7/6/6/6/6

So about 24 powers > 6th, and against a psion plopping for what amounts to a 17th level effective caster level [17 PP/power] comes out to roughly 25 (and a half!) powers [ Note: this puts the damage output for powers the psion manifests at 17d6 usually.  The situation gets muddied a bit more when you consider @ 20th due to potential DC hikes to 'save as if it were a 10th level power' ].  Further, the Wizard in question at this point, has at least a spell that will always outdamage the psion(whose not overchanneling) [Meteor Swarm damage can only be achieved at 24th, and then I'm not sure which of the power chains is No Save + No Roll to Hit].  So in effect, I'd contend that the difference is 1 [or 3 with the Torc] and generally dealing more damage.  However, the psions would be "harder to resist".

If you shuffle it to ML 20. It's 22 [or 23 with torc] in order to deal the equivilant 20d6 of damage.  However, then you have the headache of dealing with possible 10th level effective power stuffies.

Consider the effects a Ring of Wizardry II might have for a Wizard.  For the purposes of determining "effective higher level attacks", it's a bit worthless, but I hardly think that it's a fair assessment to give to the ring either.  In a pure power point comparison, the Wizard ends up a bit 'better off' than the Psion, and the Torc shows it's best benefit now in 'Suped Up Powers' but multitudes of small power usages.  While I may concede that the torc is 'too good of an item', it also comes only in the amulet slot now (a Good Thing).  Which means it's competing with the Psionatrix, the Amulet of Health, Amulet of Natural Armor, and Peripat of Wisdom [ie, I don't see a Psy Warrior using it, unless it's meshed into another item].  I have a hard time seeing a Psion not using it though.  More or less, the Torc is too much of a headache to determine the optimal application .

Oh another comment about the psionatrixes. look at Psionic Endowment before getting "too grumbly" at them.  The psionatrixes seem more akin to the 3.5 spell focus than the psionic endowment feat :x.

Anycase, I think the Power Point Issue isn't too unbalanced at the Top of the scale (ie, upper level spells versus manifested powers).  The problem, if any, would occur when you start looking at powers that don't need to be augmented or used at "best" in order to be effective.  The psion also doesn't "need" metapsi as much as the wizard may need metamagic; but then again the wizard is alot better at item crafting than the psion .


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## Thanee (Apr 18, 2004)

Yeah, the psionatrices are probably a fair deal, didn't realize they don't have an equivalent Spell Focus feat. Said so above already. 

About the power issues, I wonder how you can even argue that point. 

And one thing about the amulet slot... yes, that's a disadvantage until everyone starts to get those items for different slots. 

Bye
Thanee


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## reiella (Apr 18, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Yeah, the psionatrices are probably a fair deal, didn't realize they don't have an equivalent Spell Focus feat. Said so above already.
> 
> About the power issues, I wonder how you can even argue that point.
> 
> ...




Hehe, simply as, for a 20th level psion to get a 20th level manifester level, they only get 22 or 23 of those powers / day then [23 with torc, 22 without], versus the 24 from your example wizard; and still end up behind on some of the damage.  As from 6th level on, there are damage spells that can reach at least 20d6, and one that hits 32d6 (24 fire, 8 bludgeon), while the psion is stuck with "at best" 20d6 damage wise.  So pretty much, because Meteor Swarm rocks .


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## Urbanmech (Apr 18, 2004)

Another easily overlooked roadblock for Psions is that quite a few of their high level powers that don't deal direct damage are mind-affecting.  Constructs, Undead, and Mindblanked enemies will laugh in your face.  Sure there is Shatter Mindblank, but you don't want to be required to use that every combat to even get your powers to work.

As far as psion damage powers go I was just pointing out that the Psion HAD to use an 8th lv "spell" to do the same damage that a sorcerer could do with a 5th (cone of cold).  Sure the psion gains 3 DC points but the sorcerer could almost make up for that with Spell Focus and Greater Spellfocus that work with every evocation they cast.

I won't deny that the Psion appears stronger than the Sorcerer.  The Sorcerer really needs some more tricks to make it stack up.  Spontaneous casting as your only real class ability just doesn't equal the unlimited spell knowledge of the wizard or the fact that the wizard gets bonus feats.


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## Thanee (Apr 18, 2004)

Mainly looking for stuff I havn't realized yet, which might tone down the psion in comparison. 



			
				Urbanmech said:
			
		

> I won't deny that the Psion appears stronger than the Sorcerer.  The Sorcerer really needs some more tricks to make it stack up.  Spontaneous casting as your only real class ability just doesn't equal the unlimited spell knowledge of the wizard or the fact that the wizard gets bonus feats.




Well, I actually think that the spontaneous casting does (roughly) equal the stuff the wizard gets instead.

What I do not think is, that the psion who gets spontaneous "casting" with even more flexibility _and_ all the stuff the wizard gets (except for the unlimited spell knowledge, of course) is balanced to the arcane casters.

For the added flexibility alone he should be a bit worse in comparison not a lot better as it seems to me. And that's without figuring in arcane spell failures and verbal/somatic components, class skills, etc.

The only "balancing factor" could be the powers themselves and how they compare to equal level spells. That doesn't look like it is such a big difference, tho.

Bye
Thanee


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## reiella (Apr 18, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> For the added flexibility alone he should be a bit worse in comparison not a lot better as it seems to me. And that's without figuring in arcane spell failures and verbal/somatic components, class skills, etc.
> 
> The only "balancing factor" could be the powers themselves and how they compare to equal level spells. That doesn't look like it is such a big difference, tho.
> 
> ...




For spells, I'd wager that the spells are relatively equal (some are better situationally, some are worse situationally, ie, Psionic Domination is awkward at Concentration duration, Moment of Prescience is a bit odd too).  The swift/immediate powers probably need to be contrasted against the swift/immediate in MinisHB...

But the net effect for many of the powers is that the psion doesn't need to take metapsionic feats to diversify his power selection (ie, no need for Elemental Substitution).

Also ya missed Schism, which more or less lets the Psion behave as if they had the 3.0 Haste for power manifestation.

They can't "reselect powers" as other "Spontaneous Spellcasters"; nor do they have an "open spell list" as "prepared spellcasters".  They do have access to Psychic Reformation lets you change skills, feats, and powers selected at previous levels [costing 50xp per level you retcon through].  It can be used on others [splitting the xp cost between target and manifester].  I'd probably line these up as 'equal' due to the greater power [and cost] of Psychic Reformation, but the necessity that it be plopped onto your spell list [wizards/sorcs can do the same if you follow the examples in the FRCS with Wish ... hardly a fair cost though ].

Oh on my earlier point about scribe scroll, that was just to show that the Psions do end up "one feat" less (as their psicrystal was turned into a feat option, available at 1st), and they dont' get encode power stone at first.

[ Add ]
Hmm also thinking :
Additon of Psi-like abilities are probably more benefical to Psions than spell-likes are to wizards.  For instance, an elan psion gets more use of their PLAs than a gnome illusionist gets out of their SLAs.


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## Thanee (Apr 18, 2004)

reiella said:
			
		

> Also ya missed Schism, which more or less lets the Psion behave as if they had the 3.0 Haste for power manifestation.




*LOL*

Please tell me they havn't left that one in...

EDIT: Well... at least it is a bit limited with the -6 ML, eh? 
Still a huge benefit... basically like Quicken Spell... spontaneously applied... something they prevented very thoroughly for arcane casters to have!



> Oh on my earlier point about scribe scroll, that was just to show that the Psions do end up "one feat" less (as their psicrystal was turned into a feat option, available at 1st), and they dont' get encode power stone at first.




kk 

Bye
Thanee


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## Irritating Stick (Apr 18, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> What I do not think is, that the psion who gets spontaneous "casting" with even more flexibility _and_ all the stuff the wizard gets (except for the unlimited spell knowledge, of course) is balanced to the arcane casters.




well, that might not necessarily be true about the psion not getting unlimited spell/power knowledge...  

on page 64 under the heading of _Manifest an Unknown Power from Another's Powers Known_, the book talks about manifesting powers from power stones in a way that is different from normal.  normally the power would be manifested from the stone and then the stone is used up.  the option on this page makes it seem that you could instead manifest the power from a stone as if it was a known power (i.e. using your manifester and your power points).  you have to make 3 psicraft checks and a full round action to do this, though.

this gets really wacky with the power Psychic Reformation.  after a level up where a psion gets a feat, they could choose Imprint Stone and select Psychic Reformation as a power.  they could reformat for some powers that would good to have in a power stone, Imprint the stone, then reformat again to get rid of Imprint Stone and the powers they selected.  this takes some XP though

im thinking you could get yourself some nice utility powers by going back about 3 levels, so you would  be looking at reformating twice for a total of 300 XP.


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## Kae'Yoss (Apr 18, 2004)

Just want to drop in and say that Psions can extend their power list - they can research additional powers, in a process not unlike wizards researching spells. It costs time and XP, though.


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## Particle_Man (Apr 18, 2004)

p. 64 "The number of powers that all psionic classes can know is strictly limited; manifesters can never exceed those limits even through the research of original powers."


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## reiella (Apr 18, 2004)

Expanded Knowledge, however, kinda works .

And it does take time and experience, in a round about way.

That or he may thinking of the erudite.


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## Darklone (Apr 19, 2004)

Can Psychic warriors take Psistones (familiars) now?


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## Plane Sailing (Apr 19, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> So your 10th level Energy Ball still does 5d6 as a "3rd level power", but the Fireball does 10d6. OTOH the Energy Ball can be scaled to 10d6 with higher DC and a multitude of other benefits. Now at 15th level, the Fireball still does 10d6 and you are able to deal 15d6 with corresponding high DC and many other benefits still, all with the same power.




At the level that someone is casting a 15d6 energy ball he is effectively using an 8th level slot, so the wizard could be casting horrid wilting - same damage and DC but affect up to 15 targets (and no collateral damage) and no energy resistance to reduce the damage.


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## Staffan (Apr 19, 2004)

Darklone said:
			
		

> Can Psychic warriors take Psistones (familiars) now?



Yes. The only prereq is having a manifester level.


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## Thanee (Apr 19, 2004)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> At the level that someone is casting a 15d6 energy ball he is effectively using an 8th level slot, so the wizard could be casting horrid wilting - same damage and DC but affect up to 15 targets (and no collateral damage) and no energy resistance to reduce the damage.



 Granted. I was just illustrating, that the 3rd level power still can keep up with higher level powers quite good (maybe not exactly the same, but try the same with the wiz/sor's fireball).

 I have written a larger comparison between the classes today on a german board, maybe I'll translate it to english and repost it here... It should at least somewhat illustrate my "issues" with the psion.

 Bye
 Thanee


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## Thanee (Apr 19, 2004)

*Class Comparison - Psion versus Wiz/Sor*

Many class features are quite similar or equal (BAB, HP, Saves, Skills (sorcerer loses out a bit here, but that's not too bad, charisma has some advantages, too)).

Psionic powers and arcane spells are roughly equal. Of course there are differences, some spells are better, some powers are better, some are equal. The big picture looks pretty equal, tho.

There are more arcane spells than psionic powers to choose from, that's a given, and an advantage for the wizard primarily. The sorcerer still has a somewhat better selection to choose from.

Spells are automatically scaled with caster level, while psionic powers need to be augmented with additional PP. However, spells have caps, while psionic powers are not restricted in this fashion. A level 1 psionic power can still be quite effective in high level play at the expense of a higher level power's PP, of course. Still it's a fact, that psions need to spend more PP compared to the "cost" of a spell level to achieve a similar result, which in turn is greater, tho, due to higher DCs mainly, which should not be forgotten.

If you now get back to the comparison I posted above (the 27 9th level powers per day, still 22 if you manifest them at 20th level), you'll see, that even if the psion wastes all his PP on highest level powers, he has a respectable amount of castings per day!

I believe, that psionic powers and arcane spells are roughly equal, all things considered, especially if you consider, that in higher level the high level spells are usually the ones that count.

Ok.

Now, if you compare the psion with the arcane casters...

Under the assumption, that the core classes (especially sorcerer and wizard) are quite balanced (which I believe is the case, and my experience with both classes also tells me that, even tho the sorcerer might seem a bit "bland" he's still very powerful, since the ability to spontaneously cast _is_ quite powerful, indeed), comparing the psion and the sorcerer (which makes sense, as they are based on very similar concepts - both are spontaneous casters), you'll have to note, that the psion is way ahead there...

- quicker access to higher power levels
- even higher flexibility
- higher flexibility when choosing powers known
- a lot more high level powers known at all levels
- bonus feats

Comparing with the wizard is trickier than that, since the wizard uses the preparation method. The wizard has most of the above, as well, and has a possibly almost unlimited spell knowledge base. But then again, psions manifest their powers spontaneously, which is a huge advantage, as we know from the sorcerer... and they are even better at it than sorcerers!

Now metapsionics might be an issue, as this is something the sorcerer stands out at. Psions surely have harsh limits when it comes to applying metapsionics (psionic focus). Granted. Altho, ones you pick up Psionic Meditation (remember the bonus feats), it's basically the same as for the sorcerer.

But don't forget, that effectively, psions automatically get the effects of Silent Spell, Still Spell, Heighten Spell, Energy Substitution/Affinity und Quicken Spell without any feats necessary (Quicken Spell --> Schism is pretty much the same - ok it's a power, but still - furthermore, it allows an effect similar to spontaneous application of Quicken Spell, something the game designers have taken great care to disallow in the core rules!). The psion will probably learn no more than one metapsionic power (i.e. Maximize) and use it once (or only a few times) per combat. Still not too bad and combined with the above, hardly a disadvantage at all. Schism alone is a huge power boost!

One thing, psions are actually limited with, are the discipline lists. Many of their more powerful powers are found there, so not every psion will have access to all of them. However, Expanded Knowledge allows to pick any those powers, so that's not too bad either. Given the bonus feats and the fact, that they don't need some feats arcane casters do (like Spell Focus - they can essentially buy that one (Psionatrix), or metapsionic feats - see above).

So, the only true disadvantage psions have is their limited selection of powers to choose their powers known from. The advantages on the other hand seem to be overwhelming at least to me.

Bye
Thanee


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## Plane Sailing (Apr 19, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Granted. I was just illustrating, that the 3rd level power still can keep up with higher level powers quite good (maybe not exactly the same, but try the same with the wiz/sor's fireball).




I think the real issue is perhaps that with the new psion powers it doesn't make sense to think of them as plain "3rd level powers", but as power chains (in this case a chain that becomes accessible when 3rd level powers can be manifested). 

So it isn't the case of a 3rd level power keeping up with higher level powers, it is more like the psion has started a chain that eventually lets him manifest 4th, 5th, 6th level energy balls (which are still pretty well balanced against equivalent arcane spells).

How does that sound?


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## Thanee (Apr 19, 2004)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> How does that sound?



 You mean with the number of total powers psions get in mind?

 Better don't ask me that! 

 But that's still not exactly covering it. The powers just work different in a way, that they do not scale automatically, but have to be scaled up (thus transforming them into higher level powers essentially). See above for a more complete comparison.

 Bye
 Thanee


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## reiella (Apr 19, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> If you now get back to the comparison I posted above (the 27 9th level powers per day, still 22 if you manifest them at 20th level), you'll see, that even if the psion wastes all his PP on highest level powers, he has a respectable amount of castings per day!
> 
> I believe, that psionic powers and arcane spells are roughly equal, all things considered, especially if you consider, that in higher level the high level spells are usually the ones that count.
> 
> ...




-Assuming Fire Element Used ; makes comparison alot easier  -

Fun stuff, just ran some numbers, and typically due to the Fire/Cold bonus damage, the psion will always end up on top.

[ * ST ~= single target, reference to the bludgeoning damage caused by meteor swarm ]

ML 17 / 25 Manifestations [no torc]
25 * (17d6+17) =? 18*(20d6) + 6 * (24d6-MS) + ST 6 * (8d6)
25 * (76.5) =? 1764 + ST 168
1836 ~= 1764 + ST 168

ML 17 / 27 Manifestations [with torc]
27 * (17d6+17) =? 18*(20d6) + 6 * (24d6-MS) + ST 6 * (8d6)
27 * (76.5) =? 1764 + ST 168
2065.5 > 1764 + ST 168

ML 20 / 22 manifestations [no torc]

22*(20d6+20) =? 18*(20d6) + 6 * (24d6-MS) + ST 6 * (8d6)
1980 =? 1260 + 504 + 168
1980 > 1764 + ST 168

However, the wizard is left with 1st through 5th level powers (10d6, 15d6 cap damage, and of course, Scorching Ray).

Also, there is a good point with Overchannel and Talented possibly skewing the numbers a bit.  I've been pretty much ignoring them, but it would shunt more damage the psions way.

The Torc is also a major source of the problem [and it needs to cost 160,000], and grossly increases the damage potential of a psion as they use lower manifest level powers.

The energy type adjustment does clearly favor the Psion.  It's only at 17th level that the psion is going to be outdamaged in a Spell For Power comparison.


----------



## Thanee (Apr 19, 2004)

reiella said:
			
		

> The Torc is also a major source of the problem [and it needs to cost 160,000], and grossly increases the damage potential of a psion as they use lower manifest level powers.




Yeah, that's one horrible item. We priced it at 100k (10 times list price) in 3.0, and in 3.5 it's still too cheap, probably. Of course, with the psions being forced to augment many of their powers, it's a bit better, since the Torc is really bad, if you do a lot of low level stuff (+50% 2nd level manifestations, or +25% 3rd level manifestations).

Comparing it to the roughly equal (in cost) Ring of Wizardry II, I can only laugh. Sad.

Now Ring of Wizardry is one of the weaker items, but still...

Bye
Thanee


----------



## reiella (Apr 19, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Yeah, that's one horrible item. We priced it at 100k (10 times list price) in 3.0, and in 3.5 it's still too cheap, probably. Of course, with the psions being forced to augment many of their powers, it's a bit better, since the Torc is really bad, if you do a lot of low level stuff (+50% 2nd level manifestations, or +25% 3rd level manifestations).
> 
> Comparing it to the roughly equal (in cost) Ring of Wizardry II, I can only laugh. Sad.
> 
> ...




Ja.  That came about because I had the wrong price floating in my head (160,000) and it coming out to Ring of Wizardry IV and Ring of Wizardry II .

It'd be slightly better if there were more 'nice regular' spells at 2nd level and not "nice when you metamagic them"  like Scorching Ray.  Also a bit more troubling because spells @ level are typically utilities.

Sidenote, can find some good use out of Ring of Wizardry III at least [prepare more Dispel Magics ].  Hideous Laughter or Touch of Idiocy still make nice level 2 spells at least [well and the buff stats], so it's not too bad...  It's not as immediately a "Must have" like the torc comes off.

It does have a similiar intent/function though.


----------



## Thanee (Apr 19, 2004)

Ring of Wizardry is way too expensive to be useful at any level (posting a variant in house rules now).
I would never use one, if I could get something else for the same price.

Has anyone looked at Dispel Psionics yet? This is fun, too!

Why are psions better at dispelling than all the other casters!?
+20 dispels (for free each round with Schism even) at 15th level!?

Bye
Thanee


----------



## NilesB (Apr 19, 2004)

There are two problems with using Power Ball as your archetypal third level Psion power in these comparisions.

1> Its fourth level

2>Its not a Psion Power


----------



## James McMurray (Apr 19, 2004)

Dispel Psionics is likely a typo. I fully expect to see the erratta say that the augmentation increases the cap, not the check itself. And if it doesn't say that, I'll be house ruling it. Otherwise for 8 power points at tenth level you get a dispel check of +20.


----------



## reiella (Apr 19, 2004)

NilesB said:
			
		

> There are two problems with using Power Ball as your archetypal third level Psion power in these comparisions.
> 
> 1> Its fourth level
> 
> 2>Its not a Psion Power




3rd level has the fun Energy Cone,
and 4th has the fun Energy Ball.

Both Psion powers, albiet Kineticist it seems.


----------



## Thanee (Apr 19, 2004)

NilesB said:
			
		

> There are two problems with using Power Ball as your archetypal third level Psion power in these comparisions.
> 
> 1>Its fourth level
> 2>Its not a Psion Power




Yeah, you would need to be a Kineticist or use Expanded Knowledge.

Those discipline lists are about the only real disadvantage they built in, which I can see so far, as I wrote somewhere above. They make the selection of powers worse than it looks at first glance (still not THAT weak, but quite a bit below the arcane standard).

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Nail (Apr 19, 2004)

I've had only a little experience with the 3.0e version of the psion, as a fellow player used one.  He's a good player, true, but: psions are better than Sorcerers.....possibly even better than clerics.  I was hoping the expanded rules leveled the playing field....it seems the field is still tilted in favor of psions.


----------



## NilesB (Apr 19, 2004)

I wouldn't say the discipline lists are the only way that Psions are weaker than spellcasters.  Low level spells remain much more usefull than unaugmented powers, summoned monsters are more flexable than Astral Constructs etc.

Edit:and Nail either your Psion player was cheating or you have only seen Sorcerors who specificly chose the least useful spells they could find.


----------



## Thanee (Apr 19, 2004)

James McMurray said:
			
		

> Dispel Psionics is likely a typo.




Or the designers have very little clue of balance. 



> I fully expect to see the erratta say that the augmentation increases the cap, not the check itself. And if it doesn't say that, I'll be house ruling it. Otherwise for 8 power points at tenth level you get a dispel check of +20.




Yeah, that might be more reasonable, altho it would still be too good. In any case, if it is better than Dispel Magic / Greater Dispel Magic (which it still is then, because of  stepwise scaling and cheaper "Greater Dispels" (only costs a 5th level equivalent (9 PP with Torc / 10 PP w/o)), it's too good. Psions cannot be better at dispelling magic than wizards. No way!

It's ok, that they get both spells in one for the tradeoff to have no ability to counterspell, tho. That seems like a fair deal.

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Thanee (Apr 19, 2004)

NilesB said:
			
		

> I wouldn't say the discipline lists are the only way that Psions are weaker than spellcasters.  Low level spells remain much more usefull than unaugmented powers, summoned monsters are more flexable than Astral Constructs etc.




You do realize, that Astral Constructs are not _summoned_?

Anyways, yes, of course there are some powers that are weaker than compareable spells (Dominate Person being a very good (and weird - why are psions worse with one of their signature powers?) example), but there are plenty which are better as well, so all in all, that evens out (that is powers are roughly equal in power compared to arcane spells of similar level).

And yes, low level powers are not as useful as low level spells later on, unless you augment them (which in turn costs PP, of course), which makes them a lot more useful instead (and psions have enough PP to augment, really - see above for an example), and they have no caps, too.

The only thing that I see is the selection psions have to choose their powers from, which is definitely worse than the arcane spell list.



> Edit:and Nail either your Psion player was cheating or you have only seen Sorcerors who specificly chose the least useful spells they could find.




Yeah, 3.0 PsiHB-only Psions could only outshine other characters by munchkinizing the rules (like Psychofeedback and other horribly broken stuff).

Bye
Thanee


----------



## James McMurray (Apr 19, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Yeah, that might be more reasonable, altho it would still be too good. In any case, if it is better than Dispel Magic / Greater Dispel Magic (which it still is then, because of stepwise scaling and cheaper "Greater Dispels" (only costs a 5th level equivalent (9 PP with Torc / 10 PP w/o)), it's too good. Psions cannot be better at dispelling magic than wizards. No way!



Yeah, its definitely cheaper (even without factoring in the underpriced torc). At 11-12th level you need only augment once (total cost 4) to get +11-12. Twice at levels 13-14, etc. But then again, I never really saw anyone using Greater Dispel until around 14th level anyway. Up until then the +1-3 you get to the check isn't really worth the 3 extra spell levels you invested in it.

I think Dispel Psionis is a better setup than the Dispel / Greater Dispel pairing. If I can figure out how to convert it to arcane and divine slot usage I'll probably make a house rule for it.


----------



## Thanee (Apr 19, 2004)

Spell Points? 

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Deetz (Apr 20, 2004)

what would be the best psionics char to make? kineticist or telepath? i want to be the one who can do the most damage without having to be as physical, but somewhat physical. or would a wizard be better?


----------



## Falling Icicle (Apr 20, 2004)

I don't mean to drag the discussion off topic, but I'm havig a hard time following since I don't have the XPH. Would somebody mind explaining to me how psionics can spend extra PP to make a power higher level? This sounds very different from how their manifestation worked before.

Also, I heard that the Wilder has only 11 powers known at 20th level. What do they get that is so almighty to justify such a crippling small power selection?


----------



## James McMurray (Apr 20, 2004)

If you're looking to deal damage, a Kineticist is probably the way to go. But if you don't mind delaying your acquisition of some of the powers, and subclass will work because you can grab the powers you want via Extended Knowledge.


----------



## Dinkeldog (Apr 20, 2004)

reiella said:
			
		

> 3rd level has the fun Energy Cone,
> and 4th has the fun Energy Ball.
> 
> Both Psion powers, albiet Kineticist it seems.




Do not taunt fun Energy Ball.


----------



## reiella (Apr 20, 2004)

As another note, there's Energy Burst, a 3rd level psion power, that pretty much follows suit with the other energy series.

Of course, it's a Single-Burst type power, but fits the same general damage scale.


----------



## Particle_Man (Apr 20, 2004)

Falling Icicle said:
			
		

> I don't mean to drag the discussion off topic, but I'm havig a hard time following since I don't have the XPH. Would somebody mind explaining to me how psionics can spend extra PP to make a power higher level? This sounds very different from how their manifestation worked before.
> 
> Also, I heard that the Wilder has only 11 powers known at 20th level. What do they get that is so almighty to justify such a crippling small power selection?




Powers cost the same number of points as the Psion level at the earliest point the psion could get a power of that level (so 1, 3, 5, etc.).  Some powers can be augmented by spending more points, but never can more points be spent than the psionic character has levels in the relevant psionic class.  What augmentation will do varies with the power, but often includes more damage, a higher save DC, etc.

The wilder can basically "augment for free" and thus use a power as if she has put points into it to augment it one or more levels.  Kaaaaaa-BOOOM!   But, there is a chance that the wilder could mess herself up by doing this.


----------



## kigmatzomat (Apr 20, 2004)

Falling Icicle said:
			
		

> I don't mean to drag the discussion off topic, but I'm havig a hard time following since I don't have the XPH. Would somebody mind explaining to me how psionics can spend extra PP to make a power higher level? This sounds very different from how their manifestation worked before.




It's basically a power boost.  Spend more energy, get more oomph.  Damaging spells generally get more dice while others get more duration.  I haven't looked at XPH in detail, but I suppose a concentration power might get more range.  



> Also, I heard that the Wilder has only 11 powers known at 20th level. What do they get that is so almighty to justify such a crippling small power selection?




Factor in the above.  In 3e you'd have Lesser Power, Power, and True Power, each costing more PP and being higher levels.  In XPH there's just Power and you need to spend additional PP to boost the levels.  A 5th level psion can't generate 10d6 explosions from a base-3d6 power but he could do 5d6.  Which means you need to know fewer powers to have the same damage potential. 

The flip side of this is that a 400th level Psion manifesting a base 3d6 power only gets 3d6 damage unless he spends extra PPs.  Contrast this with mages who's fireball spell keeps getting bigger (until it hits the die cap) for the same spell level.

It's balanced, but in an odd way.  Rather I should say it *seems* balanced since until I get some play testing in it could be way off.  But since Psions generally sucked unless you used the broken powers (i.e. cocoon) I think this might be better.


----------



## Thanee (Apr 20, 2004)

Yep, I think the spells and powers are pretty much equal (as much as you can say that about such different approaches).

Powers have the advantage of being upgradeable infinitely, but do not scale automatically, while spells automatically scale, but are capped and need to be replaced by higher versions or similar higher level spells, or need metamagic to achieve a compareable result. This gives psions a little edge, as they also get the higher level powers in addition, but then again, their selection is quite a bit smaller, where they have to choose from.

The non-scaling and augmentability also solves a problem with higher level psions, which could manifest huge amounts of low level powers. While this is still possible, those won't be very useful in most cases. This way psions actually have a similar amount of powers per day compared to the spellcasters, not many more. Still, they have a lot more flexibility and most importantly, the ability to manifest a large amount of high level powers at the expense of the lower level ones. This gets continually stronger the higher levels the psion reaches (not sure how this will affect epic levels, tho).

Bye
Thanee


----------



## reiella (Apr 20, 2004)

Something else just noticed

Psicrystals are a bit different than Familiars [and less advantagesome in some ways]

Finding out Psicrystals gain hp was a nice fun exercise [it's not mentioned in the ability writeup, only in the monster stat block].

If a psicrystal is destroyed.  The Psion cannot replace the Psicrystal.

Psicrystal Affinity cannot be taken multiple times, and the only way to gain the Psicrystal is with the feat.  But, in event of death, the Psion doesn't lose experience or the like, just a Void Feat.

I think this may just be a technical oversight though honestly.


----------



## Thanee (Apr 22, 2004)

It's getting more and more ridiculous the more you look through the book. 

Metamorphic Transfer! What are they thinking by putting in such a feat? Are they even thinking? I really wonder...

Psionic Meditation, combined with Quicken Power and Schism allows 3 powers per round!

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Shadowdweller (Apr 22, 2004)

> Anyways, yes, of course there are some powers that are weaker than compareable spells (Dominate Person being a very good (and weird - why are psions worse with one of their signature powers?) example), but there are plenty which are better as well, so all in all, that evens out (that is powers are roughly equal in power compared to arcane spells of similar level).



 You mean ASIDE from the fact that Psionic Domination A) affects monsters (with augmentation) and B) can affect MULTIPLE TARGETS AT ONCE (with augmentation)?  Don't these latter make it sort of replicate the effect of a 9th level spell?



> Metamorphic Transfer! What are they thinking by putting in such a feat? Are they even thinking? I really wonder...



 Oy!  I had such high hopes for this book.  Of course, I can't say that I've had a chance to playtest anything.  So maybe it's not really as broken as it seems...pretty please?


----------



## Thanee (Apr 22, 2004)

Shadowdweller said:
			
		

> You mean ASIDE from the fact that it A) affects monsters (with augmentation) and B) can affect MULTIPLE TARGETS AT ONCE (with augmentation)?  Don't these latter make it sort of replicate the effect of a 9th level spell?




You are right. It's really quite different in application due to the duration, tho.

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Deetz (Apr 22, 2004)

what would be the best way to build a kineticist so i can have a good amount of PP and spells and whatnot for a lvl 1 char.


----------



## Thanee (Apr 22, 2004)

Cheat! 

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Evilhalfling (Apr 22, 2004)

Deetz said:
			
		

> what would be the best way to build a kineticist so i can have a good amount of PP and spells and whatnot for a lvl 1 char.




Okay, 
Int 15 +
Feats: Wild Talent (+2psp) Speed of thought, Psionic Body 
Powers: Energy Ray, Inertial Armor, (Far Hand or flavor power of choice) 
Psp 5 
hp 10 +con mod 
Concentration 4rnks


----------



## Particle_Man (Apr 22, 2004)

Evilhalfling said:
			
		

> Okay,
> Int 15 +
> Feats: Wild Talent (+2psp) Speed of thought, Psionic Body
> Powers: Energy Ray, Inertial Armor, (Far Hand or flavor power of choice)
> ...




Don't you mean Psionic Talent?  And shouldn't hp be lower?

Anyhow, I would go take Psionic Talent three times.  Hit points would be lower, but my god, the +9 pp would make up for it.


----------



## Zhure (Apr 22, 2004)

I'd say Psionic Body with the Human Feat, then Psionic Talent for a 1st level feat and again for the Psion bonus feat. That's +6 hit points and +5 power points.

Greg


----------



## Deetz (Apr 22, 2004)

would human be overall the best race to be? for my stat points i have two 17's and four 16's. I think im gonna be pretty well balanced so I was just wondering what would be the best way to build a good char. now do i get kineticist spells and any spell that has psion/xxxx type of psion?


----------



## Staffan (Apr 22, 2004)

Deetz said:
			
		

> would human be overall the best race to be? for my stat points i have two 17's and four 16's. I think im gonna be pretty well balanced so I was just wondering what would be the best way to build a good char. now do i get kineticist spells and any spell that has psion/xxxx type of psion?



There are 8 lists of powers in the XPH: Psion/wilder, Psychic warrior, and one for each type of psion specialist. As a kineticist, you'd be able to pick from the psion/wilder list, and the kineticist list. You can also take the feat Expanded Knowledge which lets you learn one extra power from *any* list, but it must be at least one level lower than the highest-level power you can normally learn (so if you take the feat at 9th level where you normally can learn 5th level powers, the extra power has to be 4th level or lower).


----------



## Shard O'Glase (Apr 23, 2004)

I think the thing is when comparing wiz/sor to a psion you can't just look at the # of 9th level effects a psion will be throwing and compare it to the wiz/sor.  The wiz/sor effects thanks to scaling of 7,8,9 will in effect be roughly equivelent to those psion 9th level effects.  So the sorcerer will likely be throwing 20 of those level of effects and still have a wide assortment of effects from the lower levels many of which again thanks to scaling will be effective in an encounter.

Also at the lower levels it looks worse for the psion at level 10 for example IIRC a psion with a 18ish in a stat would throw about 10 effects costing 10PP.  The wizard can be throwing 3,4,5 levels spells that would have an effect at a similar level and would be throwing 10 of them.  The sor would be throwing even more and at these levels level 1 and 2 spells are still potent.

The one area I think they screwed up in balance was the bonus PP for an attribute.  They should of just translated bonus spells over to bonus PP.  They almost do it at the levels up to the point where the spell level bonus would stop.  For example if you got +1 1st,2nd and 3rd level effect.  Up to 5th level the PP gained are roughly the same benefit.  Unfortunately the PP gain continues past 5th level which it wont for the spells.


----------



## Evilhalfling (Apr 23, 2004)

Particle_Man said:
			
		

> Don't you mean Psionic Talent?  And shouldn't hp be lower?
> 
> Anyhow, I would go take Psionic Talent three times.  Hit points would be lower, but my god, the +9 pp would make up for it.




Yeah psionic talent not wild 
Since all your stats give +3 bonus stick one 17 in int and the rest wherever
Nah I stand by my orginal suggestion in the long run having 5 or 8 psp not so important - the psionic body will just keep on giving 
total hp 13 Whee 
total psp 5 
move 40 
gotta have speed *Vrooom* 

okay im starting into sleep dep  
pretty soon I will be sugesting you multi-class as a ninja or pirate
or asking how many psp to dominate a dinosaur


----------



## Thanee (Apr 23, 2004)

Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> I think the thing is when comparing wiz/sor to a psion you can't just look at the # of 9th level effects a psion will be throwing and compare it to the wiz/sor.




Of course you cannot do that, it was just an example.



> The wiz/sor effects thanks to scaling of 7,8,9 will in effect be roughly equivelent to those psion 9th level effects.  So the sorcerer will likely be throwing 20 of those level of effects and still have a wide assortment of effects from the lower levels many of which again thanks to scaling will be effective in an encounter.




That's not exactly correct. 9th level powers/spells are (far) more potent than 6th - 8th level ones. Of course, with the limited selection psions will also use some augmented lower level powers.



> Also at the lower levels it looks worse for the psion at level 10 for example IIRC a psion with a 18ish in a stat would throw about 10 effects costing 10PP.




Probably one more, since stat will be higher (+4 headband), but yeah, otherwise they can manifest about as many powers as wizards and sorcerers can cast spells of their higher levels.

And he can also manifest tons of lower level powers, which do not need maximum augmentation (and not all do, I only assumed maximum augmentation in my example to get the minimum advantage).



> The one area I think they screwed up in balance was the bonus PP for an attribute.  They should of just translated bonus spells over to bonus PP.  They almost do it at the levels up to the point where the spell level bonus would stop.  For example if you got +1 1st,2nd and 3rd level effect.  Up to 5th level the PP gained are roughly the same benefit.  Unfortunately the PP gain continues past 5th level which it wont for the spells.




That actually doesn't worry me too much, even though you are probably right, it won't make such a big difference in the end. 

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Particle_Man (Apr 23, 2004)

Deetz said:
			
		

> would human be overall the best race to be? for my stat points i have two 17's and four 16's. I think im gonna be pretty well balanced so I was just wondering what would be the best way to build a good char. now do i get kineticist spells and any spell that has psion/xxxx type of psion?




See if you can get your DM to let you play a Blue (in the back of the book, probably LA +0, although the text contradicts itself).  You get a +2 bonus to INT, as well as a free power point.  And you are small, but get a move of 30, and get darkvision to boot.


----------



## Darklone (Apr 23, 2004)

Yeah, but you're a goblin and everyone will hate you. 

I'd go for Elan, forget that first talent feat and enjoy my insta saving throw save ability.


----------



## Thanee (Apr 23, 2004)

Hey Deetz, why don't you simply make a new thread about that. Your question is not really on topic anyways and you will also get more responses that way, I'm pretty sure. 

Bye
Thanee


----------



## ph0rk (Apr 26, 2004)

comparing with both wizards and sorcerors:



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> - quicker access to higher power levels




These are still extremely expensive in power points; for example a 5th level psion with an int of 18 (possible w/ most point buy systems) has 35 power points.  A 3rd level power costs 5, so yes, they can cast 7 3rd level spells per day.

but: thats it. bammo, no more, all gone.  An unwise psion can blow that in one combat, or two.  It is -very- possible to have 4+ combats per game day; and the psion is pretty worthless in those additional combats, due to the player unwisely burning their points too quickly.  If the campaign is more fluffy and has only one combat per day, then all casters will be topheavy anyway.




			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> - even higher flexibility




Yes and no; they are more flexible but with a limit.  A sorceror for example will always know more total spells/vs powers by level, and with smart metamagic feat selections, the sorcerors spells can scale much like a psion's powers.

both can use wands, etc, but wizards can actually know a great deal of spells.

psions have an ability to use their power points to use the power in a stone, (psionic equiv of a scroll) but it takes 3 full-round psicraft checks of 15+spell level, and if the third fails, they are unable to use the stone in this way for a full day.  Not exactly handy in combat 




			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> - higher flexibility when choosing powers known



yes, this is a class feature.




			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> - a lot more high level powers known at all levels



Not without a lack of lower level powers; wheras a wizard can learn a great deal of 7-9th level spells with no penalty to their lower level capacity; sorcerors end up with more total spells known, and bear in mind psions can's save up their discovered powers until later or replace ones they don't like as a sorceror can. (I believe).




			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> - bonus feats




wizards get these, I think sorcerors should too.



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> Now metapsionics might be an issue, as this is something the sorcerer stands out at. Psions surely have harsh limits when it comes to applying metapsionics (psionic focus). Granted. Altho, ones you pick up Psionic Meditation (remember the bonus feats), it's basically the same as for the sorcerer.





No, they still must make the concentration check to gain focus (yes it is a move action) and this provokes an AOO




			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> But don't forget, that effectively, psions automatically get the effects of Silent Spell, Still Spell, Heighten Spell, Energy Substitution/Affinity und Quicken Spell without any feats necessary (Quicken Spell --> Schism is pretty much the same - ok it's a power, but still - furthermore, it allows an effect similar to spontaneous application of Quicken Spell, something the game designers have taken great care to disallow in the core rules!). The psion will probably learn no more than one metapsionic power (i.e. Maximize) and use it once (or only a few times) per combat. Still not too bad and combined with the above, hardly a disadvantage at all. Schism alone is a huge power boost!




I can't see many psions taking Schism.  (especially since they must be telepaths or burn a feat/undergo psychic surgery).   The second mind is 6 manifester levels below that of the psion, and so if an 8th level telepath uses schism, it is as if they have a piggyback 2nd level psion (whoopty doo) that can only spend TWO pp per round; not much to worry about at average level 8.

And, of course, Schism costs 7 pp, and both minds then pull from the same point pool; further diluting the psions long-term effectiveness.




			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> One thing, psions are actually limited with, are the discipline lists. Many of their more powerful powers are found there, so not every psion will have access to all of them. However, Expanded Knowledge allows to pick any those powers, so that's not too bad either. Given the bonus feats and the fact, that they don't need some feats arcane casters do (like Spell Focus - they can essentially buy that one (Psionatrix), or metapsionic feats - see above).




Every feat is precious... 

having to use a feat to get a power you want is still harsh compared to the wizards general flexibility.  Few powers from opposing lists are as drastic a difference as say giving a wizard a cleric or druid spell, for example.




			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> So, the only true disadvantage psions have is their limited selection of powers to choose their powers known from. The advantages on the other hand seem to be overwhelming at least to me.





Under what circumstances?  Flavor wise, I see little difference; both arcanists and psions are able to wow the pants off the villagers.  

Crunch wise, huh?  Things like dispel magic work on psionics, as does Antimagic Field.  In a pre-planned encounter, few can topple a wizard.  They are the masters of planning ahead.

Were I an army commander hiring artillery, I'd hire in this order: Sorceror > Wizard > Psion, where > means better than 


I wouldn't call Psions overpowered simply because they outshine the Sorceror at innate abilities; they did a pretty poor job with the sorceror.


----------



## ph0rk (Apr 26, 2004)

Particle_Man said:
			
		

> Don't you mean Psionic Talent?  And shouldn't hp be lower?
> 
> Anyhow, I would go take Psionic Talent three times.  Hit points would be lower, but my god, the +9 pp would make up for it.





Not if you planned on taking more than 3 psion levels; +9pp is garbage for 3 feats.  Also, I believe that grants 2pp per feat.


----------



## ph0rk (Apr 26, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Of course you cannot do that, it was just an example.
> 
> And he can also manifest tons of lower level powers, which do not need maximum augmentation (and not all do, I only assumed maximum augmentation in my example to get the minimum advantage).





Not also; either or.

A psion cannot spit out their maximum number of high level augmented powers and still spit out many low level powers; they just don't have the pp.

A 10th level sorceror (as per the DMG NPC lists) has the following spell slots: 6/7/7/7/5/3

a 10th level psion with similar stats (swap int and cha) and gear (i.e. no stat boosts) would have 103 pp, and 21 powers known. vs 24 total spells known by the sorceror.

(before you mention some of the sorcerors spells known and slots are 0-level, all the psionic equiv. powers are 1st level, which is a detriment imho)

now, ignoring metamagic feats for the moment, that sorceror can toss 15 fireballs per day, at 10d6 per., reflex save 16 for half.

The best comperable psion power (kineticists not included) is probably energy burst; which is tricky.  it has a better radius (40') but it is centered on the caster.  Yes, the kineticist has energy ball, but the other 5/6th of psions out there don't.  Energy bolt is a psion 3rd power, and is similar to lightningbolt.

Granted, with the flexibilty of energy types, psions can do slightly more damage per cast, or choose to do less damage but ignore hardness, etc.

-BUT- what happens after the psion and sorceror have each tossed those 10 bolts?

The sorceror can lob 7 magic missles, 7 acid arrows, cast detect magic 5 times, and cast light so that they can sit down and read their favourite book.

The psion has (unless an elan or other psionic race) 3 points remaining. they can burst 3 times and pray to whatever god they worship that they escape.  (hard to do from those magic missles, each doing 5d4+5)

How is the psion overpowering the sorceror here?

(and don't even ask about how much damage each can do to a single target. 29 caster level 10 magic missles, anyone?)


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## Thanee (Apr 26, 2004)

ph0rk said:
			
		

> These are still extremely expensive in power points; for example a 5th level psion with an int of 18 (possible w/ most point buy systems) has 35 power points.  A 3rd level power costs 5, so yes, they can cast 7 3rd level spells per day.




And that's like the arcane casters alotment of 2nd and 3rd level spells together roughly! If he drops only one of those, he can add 5 1st level powers into the mix. Not so bad, really.

But I'm not saying, that the augmentation isn't costly, it sure is, just that psions still have a very respectable number of castings (well... manifestations), even if they augment all of their powers to the max! And they get better at that with every level (at level 5 they are everything but bad already, at level 20 it's bordering on the insane).



> but: thats it. bammo, no more, all gone.  An unwise psion can blow that in one combat, or two.  It is -very- possible to have 4+ combats per game day; and the psion is pretty worthless in those additional combats, due to the player unwisely burning their points too quickly.




That's no difference with the arcane casters. They work the same.



> Yes and no; they are more flexible but with a limit.  A sorceror for example will always know more total spells/vs powers by level, ...




*LoL* !?

Maybe those 0th level (and one 2nd level)... 

No, psions know more powers of all levels, actually.

And that's not counting, that psions can use almost all their low level powers at higher levels and usually have the equivalent of the higher versions (greater ...) included in their lower level ones.

Psions know equal or more powers of any given level (except 2nd, well and 0th )... whenever the sorcerer gains a new spell level, the psion will have 4 times as many powers at that level alone (plus all the scaleable ones)!



> ...and with smart metamagic feat selections, the sorcerors spells can scale much like a psion's powers.




So, the sorcerer - who doesn't get bonus feats - needs feats to keep up with the psions powers? Doesn't that feel... wrong?



> Not exactly handy in combat




Ok. 



> yes, this is a class feature.




Yes, it is. And an advantage as well. A HUGE advantage over the sorcerer even.



> Not without a lack of lower level powers; wheras a wizard can learn a great deal of 7-9th level spells with no penalty to their lower level capacity; sorcerors end up with more total spells known, ...




You don't actually want to count those 0th level ones, eh?

Ok, detect magic. That one is fair game.

See above for how wrong this statement is.



> and bear in mind psions can's save up their discovered powers until later or replace ones they don't like as a sorceror can. (I believe).




Yeah, the sorcerer can do that, but it's only really useful to do away with powers, that are not useful later on at higher levels. The psion doesn't have to bother with that, since they don't have such powers!



> No, they still must make the concentration check to gain focus (yes it is a move action) and this provokes an AOO




Yeah, it's a bit worse, but basically the same. The concentration check is not that hard and the AoO is only a problem in very rare circumstances.



> I can't see many psions taking Schism.  (especially since they must be telepaths or burn a feat/undergo psychic surgery).   The second mind is 6 manifester levels below that of the psion, and so if an 8th level telepath uses schism, it is as if they have a piggyback 2nd level psion (whoopty doo) that can only spend TWO pp per round; not much to worry about at average level 8.




Ever noticed, how Quicken Spell / Quicken Power works?



> And, of course, Schism costs 7 pp, and both minds then pull from the same point pool; further diluting the psions long-term effectiveness.




That's the price of speed... but unlike Quicken, the speed up doesn't cost anything (after those initial 7 PP). It pays off really fast!



> having to use a feat to get a power you want is still harsh compared to the wizards general flexibility.




Sure is, but wizards cannot cast spontaneously. Forgot?

It's extremely harsh compared to that, if you have to prepare beforehand.
That's also why the sorcerer doesn't get all the goodies, and it's also why the psion should not get them in order to be balanced with the wizard and sorcerer!



> Few powers from opposing lists are as drastic a difference as say giving a wizard a cleric or druid spell, for example.




Of course not. But wizards can't get those, so that's a non-issue.



> Crunch wise, huh? Things like dispel magic work on psionics, as does Antimagic Field.  In a pre-planned encounter, few can topple a wizard.  They are the masters of planning ahead.




Again, that's the wizard's advantage, sure. But spontaneous casting (sorcerer) and manifesting (psion) is an incredible advantage, too!



> I wouldn't call Psions overpowered simply because they outshine the Sorceror at innate abilities; they did a pretty poor job with the sorceror.




Having played both wizard and sorcerer for quite some time now, I can reassure you, that the sorcerer is absolutely equal to the wizard. Sure, they are a bit "boring" (or rather repetitive in their castings), since they don't get as many goodies and have to stick with a very limited spell selection, but power-wise, they can keep up easily.

There are situations, where the wizard is better (planning ahead with decent information), and others, where the sorcerer shines (unexpected events).

I doubt you have played a sorcerer and a wizard over a long time, really.

The spontaneous casting ability is HUGE (especially the higher the level gets)!

The authors of the PHB know that...

Psions get everything the sorcerer gets (sole exception: wider selection of spells to choose from compared to powers)... many of that is even better (flexibility)... and on top they get other huge advantages.

I really wonder how you can call that balanced, or even unbalanced in favor of the sorcerer.

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Apr 26, 2004)

ph0rk said:
			
		

> A psion cannot spit out their maximum number of high level augmented powers and still spit out many low level powers; they just don't have the pp.




No, of course not, but for only few high level powers less (and we all know that the high level powers are the ones that decide battles) they can do tons of low level powers.



> (before you mention some of the sorcerors spells known and slots are 0-level, all the psionic equiv. powers are 1st level, which is a detriment imho)




Yes, they need a single 1st level power for detect psionics. Wow! What a detriment. 



> -BUT- what happens after the psion and sorceror have each tossed those 10 bolts?




I never said, that it isn't costly to augment... and if you count every casting and every manifestation equal... then the sorcerer has more... but they are not equal... higher level ones are MUCH more potent than lower level ones!



> How is the psion overpowering the sorceror here?




Uhm... let's see...

By having been able to manifest twice to thrice as many high level powers maybe?

By having four times as many high level (5th here) powers to select from compared to the ONE the sorcerer has (fireball isn't the answer to everything)?
If you include augmented lower level powers, the difference is more like a dozen and a half instead of one!

By having two feats (plus the one that is the sorcerer's familiar) more?

By not needing any verbal or somatic or material components?

By being able to do all that and wear a full plate armor?

I'm sure this is not even the end of the list... 

And, not to mention, that at 10th level your fireball example is most favorably stacked towards the sorcerer (maximum scaling reached).

Bye
Thanee


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## ph0rk (Apr 26, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> I doubt you have played a sorcerer and a wizard over a long time, really.




Now who is getting snarky?  I've played both long enough to get 9th level spells, if that ain't long enough you can keep your damn discussion.



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> I really wonder how you can call that balanced, or even unbalanced in favor of the sorcerer.




Like this: Sorcerors are generally weaker than Wizards except when serving as a living breathing howitzer.  

-------

how the hell does it even matter when clerics and druids own them all anyway?


but, just for the sake of comedy; how would you construct a Psion that had access to dominate, suggestion, energy ball, and teleport circle?  

Some of the best psion powers are on the discipline lists, and you only get access to one of those.  If one were to burn all their feats, they could have (unable to use starting feats; you can only buy powers one level weaker than those you can manifest) you could have a max of 10 nonlist powers;  6 of which must be 5th level or lower.  And that precludes any metapsionic feats save the ones selected at character creation.

What if you wanted even more powers that weren't on your list?  A wizard can do all these things, and for someone who just took the high road about who has played what character type for how long you seem to forget that spontaneous casts vs prepared spells doesn't hurt nearly so bad as the levels get higher.  In almost -all- cases if the party screws up bad enough that the Wizard Sorceror or Psion has to expend -all- spellcasting ablility, they've got some other issues than caster balance.


The wizard wins the prep fight.

The Sorceror has more total spells known vs/powers.  Don't agree? How many powers 6th and higher does a level 20 psion get? 15. mind, thats at crunchiest  3 6th, 3 7th, 3 8th, 6 9th.

Assuming for one moment that total number of high level spells/powers known is the ultimate measure of power; there is no -large- discrepancy until 19th level; and even then in most cases a Psion would not end up with 6 9th level powers; the ones on the general list aren't that great and bear in mind they only have 30 powers 1-8. (the ones they selected by level 16)

how many does a sorceror have at level 16? 35.  35 spells.  Yes, many of them are 0-level.  I used 0-level spells all the time when I played wizards and sorcerors. Sometimes for flavor, sometimes for mechanics.  Detect magic is pretty damn important; read magic can be as well.  Mage hand/Far hand is one of my personal favourites, and so on.  For a Psion these cost as much as a 1-level spell.

Are you interested in discussing balance or collecting testimonials from people who agree with you?   

IMHO, the psion is well balanced with the core classes.  If you do not agree, what would you change?


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## Thanee (Apr 26, 2004)

ph0rk said:
			
		

> Now who is getting snarky?  I've played both long enough to get 9th level spells, if that ain't long enough you can keep your damn discussion.




That's long enough... Sorry!  You surely didn't sound like you had...



> Like this: Sorcerors are generally weaker than Wizards except when serving as a living breathing howitzer.




Your games must be drastically different then! 

With a good spell selection the sorcerer has a useful spell ready in almost every situation, especially if needed multiple times (even twice). Only if actually knowing what to go up against, the wizard is - of course - clearly superior.



> but, just for the sake of comedy; how would you construct a Psion that had access to dominate, suggestion, energy ball, and teleport circle?




Expanded Knowledge. They don't need many other feats anyways, since they have almost all the stuff basically for free, which the sorcerer must learn feats for (Still Spell, Silent Spell, Heighten Spell, Energy Substitution, Spell Focus).



> Some of the best psion powers are on the discipline lists, and you only get access to one of those.




Yep, which is a (pretty much the only) disadvantage of psions, as I have noted already.

The only other noteworthy thing is the non-automatic scaling, but given the fact, that scaling is better for psions than for other casters (i.e. increased DC) and that they have plenty PP to manifest at their full manifester level and still have a very decent number of powers per day, that's not such a big issue all things considered.



> A wizard can do all these things, and for someone who just took the high road about who has played what character type for how long you seem to forget that spontaneous casts vs prepared spells doesn't hurt nearly so bad as the levels get higher.




As I said, your games must be quite different, as the spontaneous ability really starts to shine at the mid to high levels, when sorcerers have a decent spell selection.



> In almost -all- cases if the party screws up bad enough that the Wizard Sorceror or Psion has to expend -all- spellcasting ablility, they've got some other issues than caster balance.








> The Sorceror has more total spells known vs/powers.  Don't agree?




No. Since 0th level spells don't count. They do nothing (detect magic excluded).



> Assuming for one moment that total number of high level spells/powers known is the ultimate measure of power; there is no -large- discrepancy until 19th level;




Ahem.

On every even level, the psion has four times as many powers of the highest level compared to the sorcerer! Four times! At every level thereafter, they still have twice as many PLUS a complete new level already, which the sorcerer has not available yet! Repeat for the one thereafter. That's no -large- discrepancy!?



> how many does a sorceror have at level 16? 35.  35 spells.  Yes, many of them are 0-level.  I used 0-level spells all the time when I played wizards and sorcerors. Sometimes for flavor, sometimes for mechanics.  Detect magic is pretty damn important; read magic can be as well.  Mage hand/Far hand is one of my personal favourites, and so on.  For a Psion these cost as much as a 1-level spell.




You don't want to say 0th level spells can live up with 6th, 7th, 8th level powers, or do you? Coz those are the ones the psion has instead of the sorcerer's mighty 0th level spells in comparison at that level (see above). 



> Are you interested in discussing balance or collecting testimonials from people who agree with you?




I would like to see something, which is convincing, that psions are balanced, compared to the dozens of arguments I have brought up on this thread, why they are not. I don't think there is much, tho (the good powers being on the discipline lists is one thing, the scaling issues another... but the countless advantages on the other side overshadow this by far).



> IMHO, the psion is well balanced with the core classes.  If you do not agree, what would you change?




See the house rules forum. I'm sure you won't like it! 

Bye
Thanee


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## ph0rk (Apr 26, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> And, not to mention, that at 10th level your fireball example is most favorably stacked towards the sorcerer (maximum scaling reached).




I'm sure as you compare the classes across a range of levels the balance will shift between them. We don't play the whole game at level 20.


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## ph0rk (Apr 26, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Your games must be drastically different then!



I'd imagine everyone's are.

my biggest point is that the differences between psions and sorcers are relatively slight, as far as damage potential, in the short term.  In the long term, one or the other will shine - depending entirely on the type and amount of butt-kicking required. (psions do much better with scores of weak enemies).


Generally though, again imho, psion powers are weaker than arcane powers.  (remember for most powers, the DC does not scale) Sure, there are many that are identical, but a great deal of psionic powers just suck. My light? please.

Flavor-wise, I've (and others) never been happy with the fact that Sorcerors, a class what is supposed to have magic in their BLOOD, have to collect bat poo to cast fireball. (And other material components).  Thats just stupid, and everyone knows it. 




			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> See the house rules forum. I'm sure you won't like it!




I haven't seen anything convincing.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion, of course. 

I don't see how psions in particular stand out from the crowd. (i.e. core classes) in any particularly unbalancing way. Sure, they do a few things a sorcerer does but better, and vice versa.  

On the other hand, the Psychic Warrior is one of my favourite classes from the new book; I don't see too many people discussing -their- balance issues


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## Thanee (Apr 26, 2004)

The comment about the 10th level was exactly meaning that. You can't just pick one level, you have to compare overall balance. And I'm sure that the psion will win out at most levels - and that's if you ignore many of their inherent advantages in the comparison and just compare their flexibility, manifestings per day, manifestings per round and effect of their manifestings compared to spells.

I'm pretty certain, that the psion will also outshine the sorcerer in raw damage dealing, if you do that, most of the time.

That is in damage per time, of course. The psion _will_ be depleted quicker, if he does that.

The sorcerer will be able to do more damage over a longer time frame, but that includes many highly ineffective spells, that - once the real ones are depleted - simply won't make a difference anymore.

All in all, the sorcerer will be able to cast more spells per day than the psion can manifest powers. However, the additional spells are all of a pretty low level then. While those surely are useful still, they are not the ones that have a huge impact. The psion has the ability to manifest more (or even many more) high level powers, which easily balances their lower number of manifestations per day. What do you think is better? One 9th level power or one 6th level spell PLUS one 3rd level spell? That's basically what we are comparing here.

The ability to unleash more powerful powers is not to be underestimated. With all the stuff they get, psions are able to manifest powers worth a total of 48 PP per round (costing them 54 PP per round plus a one-time expenditure of 12 PP) at 20th level (starting with the 2nd, in the 1st they can "only" do their normal 20 PP plus the 12 PP for the quickened Schism)! There's a reason, why haste has been changed in 3.5! Being able to throw out more of one's powers in a shorter time frame is a huge advantage, that's exactly why haste has been toned down. Again, this will lead to a quick expenditure of the PP, but it will also lead to quicker defeat of the opposition in combat, so the overall expenditure is not really that much higher in the end. And this is a very extreme example as well, you don't have to go that high, it just demonstrates that they _can_ go that high!

Anyways, here's even an example, using your "sorcerers can throw X fireballs a day" guideline. Let's see how many "fireballs" the psion can throw per day, if they are not augmenting to the max, but only stay at the same level of the fireball.

Level / Sorcerer # of CL10 Fireballs (avg.dam. 35) / Psion # of ML8 Energy Balls (avg.dam. 36)

10th / 17 / 14
15th / 34 / 35
20th / 52 / 61

10th: Int/Cha 22 (excluding Torc)
15th: Int/Cha 24 (including Torc)
20th: Int/Cha 28 (including Torc)

Yes, energy ball is a 4th level power which needs a feat, but as has been shown already, this is no problem for psions comparing to sorcerers.

Not so bad in direct comparison, eh?

Ok, now after these are done, the psion won't have the same number of 1st and 2nd level powers the sorcerer does have in spells left. It wouldn't be fair to forget about those.

Also note, that this is highly downsizing what the psion can do with the energy ball. They could easily do a lot more damage per time, if they wished to spend more points on them (and they can spend quite a few more)!

Of course, the sorcerer will have better spells than fireball at those levels (altho castable from fewer slots than above), the sorcerer will have to dedicate precious high level spells known to those, the psion does not need to learn much besides energy ball to keep up. If the example would be expanded to the actual scaling (that is using higher level slots for higher level spells), the sorcerer will do more damage over time for sure, fireball isn't really effective at 15th level or even 20th level. But that neglects some facts like energy resistance (the psion doesn't have any problem with those), Evasion (psion? switch to fortitude save), and such. The sorcerer needs feats or other spells to adapt to such challenges. That's the disadvantage the sorcerer gets for being a spontaneous caster. The psion doesn't have this disadvantage to this extent.

And... psion powers are generally weaker than arcane spells!?

I'd say, that while psions surely have less powers to choose from, their individual powers easily live up to corresponding spells (in fact they seem to be even better most of the time). Sure some of those are on the discipline lists, but then again Expanded Knowledge allows to pick them (and they have the feats to do so as well).

You don't really want to tell me, that fireball (your prime example) is better than energy ball (yes, it's 4th level, but that is no big difference in the long run... some spells/powers are always +/-1 level (i.e. dominate is -1 for psions)), do you?

I'm pretty sure, that the psions powers are not weaker than the arcane spells. But since they are roughly equal, they cannot have like a dozen other advantages with absolutely no disadvantage to balance these.

Psychic Warrior: Havn't looked at that too closely yet, but since the PW doesn't have the same huge advantages (and is not so similar to the wizard and sorcerer), I don't have such a big problem with them as I have with the psion. Publishing a class (the psion), that is so much better than a very similar core class, just isn't right.

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Apr 26, 2004)

ph0rk said:
			
		

> I haven't seen anything convincing.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion, of course.




That's a given, of course. I don't want to tell people what they have to like or dislike. I stated somewhere else, that the new psion rules surely will be fun to play.

I only tell them, that those new rules are not balanced. This is a fact.

I havn't seen many people post any serious disadvantages of the psion class yet.

There is one thing (the lower number of powers to select their powers known from, also that many good powers are unavailable unless you spend a feat (altho the psion has the bonus feats to do so)), which actually is a disadvantage.

Other than that?

I have listed like a dozen of advantages, some minor, some very powerful. Nothing is there to balance these.

Bye
Thanee


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## kitoy (Apr 26, 2004)

*Give the Psion a chance.*

All of your arguments are well thought out, almost too well thought out sometimes.  What you're doing is pushing everything to the bleeding edge of possibility.  I know that we all have or have had munchkins in our party who'll push the rules to the limit, but not everyone pushes everything to the edge every single game.

My suggestion is that you run or play a few games with a psion in the party before you rush to judgement.  Give the psion a chance to advance a few levels to see how they do, *in play* , before coming to a final decision.

You're making most of your arguments based on 10th and 20th level characters.  Do you mostly play high level games? Do you start your characters at 1st level or do you start somewhere higher?  We all know that the game is totally different at different levels, how do you think psions compare at lower levels?

I personally think that the new XPH is great, a well balanced book with the rest of 3.5, but I haven't played with the new psionics rules for 20+ levels.  I could be wrong and you could be right.   

I'm not saying you're wrong, I just think that you've jumped into the "I hate the XPH" pool with both feet without really giving it a chance.  I know that you're scared that this book will ruin your game, but I believe that this product has been thoroughly playtested by the folks at WotC.  Playtest it yourself and it may surprise you.


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## nameless (Apr 26, 2004)

Psions seem to be better at blasting than either Wizards or Sorcerors, it's hard to argue otherwise. The versatility of Psions, however, is extremely limited compared to arcane spells. Wizards are a different enough that it's tough to compare them to Psions, but Sorcerors seem fair enough. They might have a greater number of "effective" known powers than Sorcerors, but arcane spells simply can do a wider variety of things than Psionics.

First off, very few beneficial psionic powers can be used on others. Like monks, psions are great at protecting themselves, but lousy at keeping the rest of the party alive and together. Psionics are also apparently unable to make illusions of any kind, except by messing with the minds (and everything that goes with offensive power use instead of passive illusion) of the targets. If you look at psionic powers, almost every one would fall into evocation, transmutation, or enchantment (though there are exceptions for many iconic spells). Psionics are almost always strictly offensive, and almost always allow a save.

The power list has another serious drawback, and that's in staying power. Many arcane spells can be cast once, and be an effective attack for the entire combat (Evard's Tentacles, Cloudkill, Polymorph/Shapechange, etc). It's usually more effective to use another spell each round, but sometimes it's important to conserve spell slots and win the battle, so the big spells are still left for then you really need them. Psions don't have that flexibility, because they need to keep spending PP to keep being effective.

Given everything on the table, psions can't do more in an encounter than a well-prepared wizard. Psions do have greater staying power than a wizard, for high level effects anyways, but not nearly as much versatility, and in noncombat challenges, wizards really shine. Sorcerors probably don't have the raw combat power of a psion, but they do have a more open list of spells and can contribute a good deal outside of combat. Sorcerors also have more staying power than a psion, between being able to use less spells per combat, and being able to use more relevant (though not maximum level, lower level sorceror spells can still be useful, where unaugmented powers frequently aren't),

So I think that psions are not equal to the arcane spellcasters, but each has unique advantages (wizards unlimited potential, sorcerors vast reserves, and psions quick adaptability).


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## Psion (Apr 26, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> What I do not think is, that the psion who gets spontaneous "casting" with even more flexibility _and_ all the stuff the wizard gets (except for the unlimited spell knowledge, of course)




That's a pretty big "except" if you ask me.

Add that to the 15-minute-to-use-and-spell-in-your-books-rule, the flexibility of this wizard feature is fairly potent.


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## Psion (Apr 26, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> I only tell them, that those new rules are not balanced. This is a fact.




"Fact." Fortunately, the determination of fact is not up to you, and you have far from provided objective proof. It's your perception.



> I'm pretty certain, that the psion will also outshine the sorcerer in raw damage dealing, if you do that, most of the time.




That perception relies on comparing an unbuffed third level running up against the level fence to an essentially 8th level power. If you slant your examples like this, of course they are going to come out looking like it's in your favor. A sorcerer can swap out their spells every other level. If at 15th level, the sorcerer is still using it, it would be the strategy of the sorcerer's player I would question, not the psion's balance.

That said, I would agree on the whole, it appears that the sorcerer comes off a bit weak compared to the psioni, even considering the above. But as others have said, you have misidentified the problem. The psion is not incredibly strong, from what I can see. Rather, the sorcerer is weak. This has been something people have brought up in debates that don't even talk about the psion.

In my game, I am pretty free with third party publications that seem a little over the top with the sorcerer, just because it feels a bit like a poor cousin to the wizard.


----------



## Thanee (Apr 26, 2004)

kitoy said:
			
		

> All of your arguments are well thought out, almost too well thought out sometimes. What you're doing is pushing everything to the bleeding edge of possibility. I know that we all have or have had munchkins in our party who'll push the rules to the limit, but not everyone pushes everything to the edge every single game.



 Hmm... I don't really think that I did that... I'm sure you can find stuff (like with PrC involved, etc.) which can get this to even higher levels.

 Of course, I'm looking at the psion at his full ability. That's what is going to happen in play, or wouldn't you use powers with maximum augmentation, for example? That's like, if you play a wizard, you choose not to cast spells from your highest level. 



> My suggestion is that you run or play a few games with a psion in the party before you rush to judgement. Give the psion a chance to advance a few levels to see how they do, *in play* , before coming to a final decision.



 See below.



> You're making most of your arguments based on 10th and 20th level characters. Do you mostly play high level games? Do you start your characters at 1st level or do you start somewhere higher? We all know that the game is totally different at different levels, how do you think psions compare at lower levels?



 I'm actually trying to argue from a very general viewpoint, that's why I am mainly discussing the mechanics behind the psionics. When I give examples, they are to demonstrate a point, nothing else. I do not base my argumentation on the abilities of a 20th level Psion, in most cases what I state is true throughout all levels.

 But since you asked... When I looked up the PP for low level psions, I noticed, that they will be able to manifest 6 or more 1st level powers per day. At second level their ability almost doubles. At third they already have 2nd level powers (two even, at fourth they have four of them, when the sorcerer gets his first). No, I don't think they look weak at low levels.

 However, they do not have any 0th level powers, which can actually be kinda useful at the low levels still.

 So they are at least equal at this point, if not better (if I were a wizard or sorcerer I would easily drop my 0th level spells per day for more 1st level spells per day).



> I'm not saying you're wrong, I just think that you've jumped into the "I hate the XPH" pool with both feet without really giving it a chance.



 As I already stated, we've played with psionics in a very long-running 3.0 campaign, using the stuff the XPH rules are built upon (ITCK and MS).

 It's similar enough to draw conclusions.

 And I never said, that I hate the XPH. What I said is, that I am highly disappointed by it.



> I know that you're scared that this book will ruin your game, ...



 Actually... no. It won't ruin our game, since it won't be used! 



> ...but I believe that this product has been thoroughly playtested by the folks at WotC.



 You put a lot of faith into WotC playtesting. 

 Do you think that the 3.0 PsiHB has been playtested as well?
 How could stuff like Psychofeedback or the Torc of psionic might find its way into the book then?

 It doesn't take a genius or a revision to figure out that this stuff is hideously broken. They havn't even addressed it in the errata or FAQ!

 Now in 3.5 they obviously did tone down some of that stuff (at least!), even though now Psychofeedback is totally crippled and completely useless. Doesn't look like the right way to me either.



> Playtest it yourself and it may surprise you.



 I don't need to playtest it to see that some stuff is utterly broken...

 How about Metamorphic Transfer as an example.
 Do you think this feat has been playtested?

 I think, if it has been playtested, the people that did so should be looking for a new job. 

 How do you believe the product has been thoroughly playtested, yet they didn't incorprate stuff, which has been errataed for the PHB (Greater Manifestation). Why is the ability to spontaneously manifest multiple powers per turn in there, while the authors of the PHB have deliberately removed this ability from spellcasters to better balance them with the non-spellcasters? Why is there a psionic version of dispel magic (this is not really a rarely used spell in normal D&D so should come up fairly often in playtest situations), which is at 10th level TWICE AS GOOD as the equivalent spell and equivally good as the greater version cast by a 20th level character!? And why are psions better in dispelling magic than wizards, anyways, it's not like they have studied it, or did they?

 I'd need to playtest, for example, to see how a class like the Wilder fares. It's too different in concept to say up front. The psion is not.

 Bye
 Thanee


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## Thanee (Apr 26, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> That's a pretty big "except" if you ask me.
> 
> Add that to the 15-minute-to-use-and-spell-in-your-books-rule, the flexibility of this wizard feature is fairly potent.



 Definitely, yes. But as I stated initially, psions are like sorcerers not wizards. Sorcerers don't get all the goodies wizards get, because of their spontaneous casting ability. Psions do... and have this ability as well, even in a more powerful (more flexible) fashion.

 Bye
 Thanee


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## Thanee (Apr 26, 2004)

No objective proof? I think my comparisons of psion and sorcerer are quite objective (at least I try to be as objective as possible, even tho it might not really sound that way ). The examples are not what it's all about. If you only refer to some examples I give, you won't get the whole point. I'm trying to argue about the very basic fundamentals of each class.



			
				Psion said:
			
		

> That perception relies on comparing an unbuffed third level running up against the level fence to an essentially 8th level power. If you slant your examples like this, of course they are going to come out looking like it's in your favor.



 Erm, that was not really what the example was about... and if you read it again, I actually say that myself up there. 

 An example to show that the psion outperforms the sorcerer in terms of damage dealing would involve powers and spells at their maximum, of course. But that's pretty obvious, that the psions wins that comparison. It's one of their inherent class advantages with the PP system, and really nothing I have any problems with (they have more flexibility and therefore can do more in shorter time). I have a problem with the fact, that they can do this and also have a higher number of powers, also get faster access to more powerful powers, also get bonus feats, more skill points indirectly, and so on, and so on, and so on.



> A sorcerer can swap out their spells every other level.



 While the psion does not need to, since their powers already include the higher level versions (which also indirectly increases their effective powers known) and have no caps.



> That said, I would agree on the whole, it appears that the sorcerer comes off a bit weak compared to the psioni, even considering the above.



 Yep.



> But as others have said, you have misidentified the problem. The psion is not incredibly strong, from what I can see. Rather, the sorcerer is weak. This has been something people have brought up in debates that don't even talk about the psion.



That's indeed an important point.

 And yes, I am of the opinion, that the sorcerer is not weaker than the wizard, maybe slightly (depends on campaign style also), but not much at least. Not even close to how much the psion is more powerful compared to the sorcerer.

 In my game experience with 3.5 the sorcerer is definitely on par with the other classes. In fact, I think that pretty much all of the PHB classes are quite balanced to each other in 3.5. The spellcasters still have an advantage at higher levels, naturally, the divine casters are still very powerful throughout all levels, but fighter-types have been improved quite a bit, while some of the more broken caster abilities (i.e. haste, buffs) have been toned down a lot, which greatly improved the balance between those.

 Bye
 Thanee


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## Thanee (Apr 26, 2004)

nameless said:
			
		

> First off, very few beneficial psionic powers can be used on others. Like monks, psions are great at protecting themselves, but lousy at keeping the rest of the party alive and together.



 Havn't looked at this yet. In 3.0 there was a feat, which allowed them to use their personal powers on others. The psion in our 3.0 campaign easily outperformed the cleric as the party healer, btw. 

 But yeah, in general they have quite a few personal powers (some of those have other advantages instead, like inertial barrier, which has no material cost, but fortunately is not 10/- now).

 The weaker power selection compared to the vast arcane spell list is the biggest disadvantage, psions have to face IMHO. But given, that psions know more relevant powers through almost all levels than sorcerers, I doubt, that they are not well-suited for non-combat situations. But I'll take a closer look at the power list to see what can be done to help others, later.

 Bye
 Thanee


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## hong (Apr 26, 2004)

Is there any psionic equivalent to limited wish? That one spell alone almost entirely circumvents the sorc's reduced flexibility.


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## Thanee (Apr 26, 2004)

Yes. It is 8th level, tho.

 Bye
 Thanee


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## BryonD (Apr 26, 2004)

We have updated and started playing the psion in my game.

Seems to work fine.

There are some specific point items that may be questionable, but that seems to be the case with every new product.

Overall, it works fine.


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## Thanee (Apr 26, 2004)

Hey, Bryon. Would you care to give some more specifics, like level and what characters the party consists of?

 Would also be interesting to know, what specific powers / feats the psion character picked.

  Bye
  Thanee


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## Psion (Apr 26, 2004)

> While the psion does not need to, since their powers already include the higher level versions (which also indirectly increases their effective powers known) and have no caps.




As has already been noted, many powers don't scale well, or scale inefficiently, or don't scale at all. When it does scale, often the end results are not as effective as the higher level spell equivalent of a sorcerer (take a look at some of the energy powers. Though you can pump in PP to get damage and DC up, often you are still left affecting fewer targets than an equivalent level sor/wiz spell). And all scaling requires the input of more power points, which in the sorcerer's world would be equivalent to charging the sorcerer higher level spell slots, when often the psionics equivalent is that of a lower level spell cast at the higher level, NOT that of a spell of the higher spell level.

Couple that with the fact that psion power slots are not level specific, I beleive that the absence of swapping is a telling feature.

So in short, I think there is a LOT of give and take you are not considering in your supposedly objective examples, and the truth is that they are a lot closer than you make out. Though I still agree the sorcerer probably comes up a little short.

That said, sorcerer has never failed my ultimate balance litmus test. To wit, I beleive that if a class really is unbalanced, players will detect this and play it preferentially. Despite many theoretical analyses on clerics (showing they are strong) and sorcerers (showing they are weak), sorcerer still remains the most played spellcasting class in my games, and I hardly ever see a cleric played. So while there may be some theoretical weakness, I think the litmus test shows that they are pretty minor in scope if there is any authenticity to the claim.


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## Thanee (Apr 26, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> As has already been noted, many powers don't scale well, or scale inefficiently, or don't scale at all. When it does scale, often the end results are not as effective as the higher level spell equivalent of a sorcerer (take a look at some of the energy powers. Though you can pump in PP to get damage and DC up, often you are still left affecting fewer targets than an equivalent level sor/wiz spell).



 Interesting enough, I would rate the energy ... powers among those that look most impressive compared to the arcane versions (energy bolt to lightning bolt, energy ball to fireball - yeah, I know it's 4th level - +/-1 level is still within the parameter of "flavor" as shown with the other classes (i.e. enchantments for bards, dispel magic or flamestrike for druids, etc.)). Now with the errata/clarification, dominate is up there, too.

 Really, I havn't seen much in terms of psionic powers, that looks bad compared to equivalent arcane spells (given that you pay the PP to scale, of course).

   However, there are plenty arcane spells, which have no psionic equivalent!



> And all scaling requires the input of more power points, which in the sorcerer's world would be equivalent to charging the sorcerer higher level spell slots, when often the psionics equivalent is that of a lower level spell cast at the higher level, NOT that of a spell of the higher spell level.



 The scaling, as the psion has it, does not translate into the sorcerer's world. If it would, the sorcerer would not have spell slots of specific levels to begin with. The non-automatic scaling is the limiting factor for the psion's flexibility to not get completely out of hand (as in hundreds of "magic missiles" per day).

 It has the inherent weakness that psions need to augment many of their powers to some degree to keep them effective. Arcane casters have the caps and restricted level slots instead.

 And don't forget, that it is just an option for psions to scale low level powers instead of using high level powers. They get twice to four times as many _real_ high level powers to choose from compared to the sorcerer!

   More choice is always a benefit.

 (Note: Of course, this also applies to the selection, the arcane casters choose their spells from.)

 Overall (including scaling and the added flexibility of the PP system) psionic powers and arcane spells seem roughly balanced to me (have said this before).



> Couple that with the fact that psion power slots are not level specific, I beleive that the absence of swapping is a telling feature.



 I believe that it is directly related to the automatic upgrades, so to say (i.e. dispel includes greater dispel, psionic weapon includes greater psionic weapon, etc.). The sorcerer has the swapping ability exactly to do this (upgrade spells to higher versions, or discard spells that - thanks to cap - are useless now, but were good before - otherwise such spells will almost never be used).



> So in short, I think there is a LOT of give and take you are not considering in your supposedly objective examples, ...



 Actually, I think those points have been addressed in my critique (that is the scaling issues (non-automatic and costly) and the weaker selection). Anything else I have missed?



> That said, sorcerer has never failed my ultimate balance litmus test. To wit, I beleive that if a class really is unbalanced, players will detect this and play it preferentially. Despite many theoretical analyses on clerics (showing they are strong) and sorcerers (showing they are weak), sorcerer still remains the most played spellcasting class in my games, and I hardly ever see a cleric played. So while there may be some theoretical weakness, I think the litmus test shows that they are pretty minor in scope if there is any authenticity to the claim.



 Yeah, the differences between the core classes are pretty minor in my opinion.

 Clerics, sorcerers, etc. they all are pretty unique also, favoring several different tastes and playing styles. Psions and sorcerers, however, are very similar (even more than sorcerers and wizards I'd dare to say, because of their similarities in design and the general similarities between psionic powers and arcane spells, which are much closer than divine magic to each of them).

 I'm pretty sure, that with the XPH included in a campaign, sorcerers (generally) will be played FAR less. Of course, this is pure guess-work.

   Bye
   Thanee


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## BryonD (Apr 26, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Hey, Bryon. Would you care to give some more specifics, like level and what characters the party consists of?
> 
> Would also be interesting to know, what specific powers / feats the psion character picked.
> 
> ...




attached


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## Psion (Apr 26, 2004)

> I believe that it is directly related to the automatic upgrades




Oh, I do too. I think that building in the scaling means that you aren't as compelled to allow swapping.

But this feature is not without its consequences. You want a combat power early, and to your fortune, many of these combat powers scale. However, later powers also scale, but have more benefits. So you may take energy ray at first with the knowledge that you can pump it later as you go up levels. But energy ray will not substitute for energy stun or energy ball at the same PP cost; it's obvious to me that scaling will not make first level powers serve as the total equivalent of higher levels powers at the same PP cost. So as a psion, if you want to take this power at a higher level, you risk having to overlap with powers you already have. It's not the same no-brainer sort of choice for a first level spell/power that the sorcerer faces.


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## BryonD (Apr 26, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> The scaling, as the psion has it, does not translate into the sorcerer's world. If it would, the sorcerer would not have spell slots of specific levels to begin with. The non-automatic scaling is the limiting factor for the psion's flexibility to not get completely out of hand (as in hundreds of "magic missiles" per day).
> 
> It has the inherent weakness that psions need to augment many of their powers to some degree to keep them effective. Arcane casters have the caps and restricted level slots instead.
> 
> ...




I disagree with this analysis.

A sorcerer 8 casting a third level fireball gets an 8d6 fireball for a 3rd level slot.  The sorcerer can chose to cast a 6d6 fireball if he wanted to for some reason.

A psion spending 5 points will only get the third level power effect.  If he wants to get more effect he is forced to spend more points (thus making it a 4th level power).  So it is actually the sorcerer who has more flexibility on that count. 

They can both produce a 3rd level effect if they desire.
They can both power-up, but the sorcerer gets the power up by default.
The only advatage that the psion has here is a +1 DC.  Coming at the price of +1 level spell slot (effectively the 3.5 spell focus with the added penalty of +1 spell level) 

Again, there are other areas where a psion shines.  I am certainly not saying that they got the bad end of the deal.  But if you count augmented powers as additional effective powers known, then you need to also count improving spell effectiveness in the same way.


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## ph0rk (Apr 26, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Interesting enough, I would rate the energy ... powers among those that look most impressive compared to the arcane versions (energy bolt to lightning bolt, energy ball to fireball - yeah, I know it's 4th level - +/-1 level is still within the parameter of "flavor" as shown with the other classes




Unless one is a kineticist, you MUST spend a feat to learn energy ball, and you can't even do that until you can manifest 5th level powers; at level 9.

And, if you are a kineticist, then you must spend a feat to get dominate, mindlink, suggestion, astral construct, control breathing, teleport, schism, and metamorphasis.  

You can -never- have True metamorphasis (aside from a special RP situation with a high-level Telepath).  Likewise you can never have true mndswitch, reality revision, true creation, mass time hop, or greater metamorphasis.

The 9th level kineticist power is tornado blast, which is absolute garbage compard to meteor swarm.

So, while a sorceror will have access to fireball by level 6, the psion doesn't have an energy spell with a similar area of effect until 9th level (7 if kineticist).






			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> The scaling, as the psion has it, does not translate into the sorcerer's world. If it would, the sorcerer would not have spell slots of specific levels to begin with. The non-automatic scaling is the limiting factor for the psion's flexibility to not get completely out of hand (as in hundreds of "magic missiles" per day).




Technically, the sorceror can already do that.  There are some Psion spells of similar usefulness, though none that automatically hit w/ no save and no attack role, and most would cost 5+ pp to do similar damage. (i.e. as much as a 3rd level spell)




			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> You don't really want to tell me, that fireball (your prime example) is better than energy ball (yes, it's 4th level, but that is no big difference in the long run... some spells/powers are always +/-1 level (i.e. dominate is -1 for psions)), do you?




It is different. As stated above, most psions won't even -have- energy ball; and those that do won't until 9th level!  So, you see I couldn't have really made ym example much lower, unless you real gripe is *Kineticists* vs Sorcerors.

As for which spell is 'better' it depends.  Sorcerors have access to better spells  at level 9 and higher, so the only real comparisons using fireball can be made from 5-10.  After that, obviously, energy ball (for those few psions that can manifest it) is competing with bigger, nastier spells.

I think (if you have the book) you should try making a psion, somewhere between 5-10th level, and see how many powers you -wish- you had, but don't have the feats for!

I don't really think the balance issues even matter after level 15; then its all about who spots who first and unleashes hell. Rod of greater quickening + meteor swarm? 





			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> How about Metamorphic Transfer as an example.
> Do you think this feat has been playtested?




Metamorphasis cannot assume the form of construct, outsider, or undead, and the 4th level version (again, -only- egoists will have the 9th level version) is good for 15 hd or less.  Metamorphic Transfer lets you use a form's supernatural ability 3 times per day (as in 3 uses of any supernatural ability per day).

Big deal.





			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> It has the inherent weakness that psions need to augment many of their powers to some degree to keep them effective. Arcane casters have the caps and restricted level slots instead.
> 
> And don't forget, that it is just an option for psions to scale low level powers instead of using high level powers. They get twice to four times as many _real_ high level powers to choose from compared to the sorcerer!




yes, but they don't have as many offensive powers in their general list. and in fact they have much fewer powers in general on the list.




			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> More choice is always a benefit.




One could argue that a Sorceror, through spell replacement, has access to far more spells through their career than does a psion.



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure, that with the XPH included in a campaign, sorcerers (generally) will be played FAR less. Of course, this is pure guess-work.




Well, WotC should have thought of that before they published (for a SECOND time) an inherent-magic caster that needs friggin material components!


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## Spatula (Apr 26, 2004)

ph0rk said:
			
		

> You can -never- have True metamorphasis (aside from a special RP situation with a high-level Telepath).  Likewise you can never have true mndswitch, reality revision, true creation, mass time hop, or greater metamorphasis.



Well, not until epic levels, anyway (through the Epic Expanded Knowledge feat).


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## ph0rk (Apr 26, 2004)

Spatula said:
			
		

> Well, not until epic levels, anyway (through the Epic Expanded Knowledge feat).





What are these epic levels you speak of? 

True, they could buy those powers with a feat then, but then they would be selling themselves short, as sorcerors and wizards would be getting 10th and 11th spell slots with their feats.

Tornado blast ain't no enlarged mazimized empowered horrid wilting. :/


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## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 26, 2004)

Thanee,

I think the main reason people are disagreeing with you is based on the foundation of your argument. In my opinion, and in the opinion of a great many other players, sorcerers are not equel in power to wizards. 

In my opinion, Psions and Specialist Wizards are well balanced together. A Kineticist and Invoker are both going to dominate the battlefield. Their level of power output are about the same. Some powers are better than spells, and some spells are better than powers. They are just different. For most of this thread, you have been comparing a kineticist to a sorcerer, which is about equel to a generic wizard (or less so in my opinion). That's about like comparing the damage output of a regular wizard to an Invoker. You just can't do that.

The sorcerer, on the other hand, falls short of both classes. In my opinion, the spontaneous casting isn't enough to put the sorcerer on even ground. Given the wizards ability to cast any spell in his spellbook in 15min and the free scribe scroll feat, the wizard will almost always have an answer to whatever problem you have.

If you really want to see if the psion is overpowered, you should be looking at the other end of the power spectrum....the cleric. But, unfortunately the classes are so different, it'd be hard to compare them.

I suggest you build a 10th level psion, wizard, and sorcerer and then take another look at all three. The XPH is FILLED with all sorts of awesome powers and feats that look really nice. But, in reality, you'll only get to sample about 10% of those things. You just don't get enough powers, PPs, and feats to make psions that are as unbalanced as you make them seem.

Another problem I've noticed is your disregard for the psion's lack of 0 level powers. Those powers are very handy and most players will be willing to drop a 1st level power or two to pick up powers like Detect Psionics and Far Hand.

The sorcerer has more known powers. But, some of them are 0 level and I'll admit are not always useful. In the end, I'd consider the number of known powers to be about equel between the psion and sorcerer.


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## Thanee (Apr 26, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> It's not the same no-brainer sort of choice for a first level spell/power that the sorcerer faces.




Yeah, the advantages of those two approaches are different for sure.

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Apr 26, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> The only advatage that the psion has here is a +1 DC.  Coming at the price of +1 level spell slot (effectively the 3.5 spell focus with the added penalty of +1 spell level)




How about you compare this to a heightened spell. That sounds pretty similar to me.



> Again, there are other areas where a psion shines.  I am certainly not saying that they got the bad end of the deal.  But if you count augmented powers as additional effective powers known, then you need to also count improving spell effectiveness in the same way.




Just that the spells have caps, so their usefulness has a limit (to even this out it doesn't cost anything to scale up to that cap). But yeah, in general I do agree with that, altho I have probably mentioned it in another context.

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Apr 26, 2004)

ph0rk said:
			
		

> Unless one is a kineticist, you MUST spend a feat to learn energy ball, and you can't even do that until you can manifest 5th level powers; at level 9.




Yeah, tho the feat is basically free, if you compare with the sorcerer who doesn't get bonus feats.



> And, if you are a kineticist, then you must spend a feat to get dominate, mindlink, suggestion, astral construct, control breathing, teleport, schism, and metamorphasis.
> 
> You can -never- have True metamorphasis (aside from a special RP situation with a high-level Telepath).  Likewise you can never have true mndswitch, reality revision, true creation, mass time hop, or greater metamorphasis.




I'm aware of that, as I have stated several times by now. 



> It is different. As stated above, most psions won't even -have- energy ball; and those that do won't until 9th level!  So, you see I couldn't have really made ym example much lower, unless you real gripe is *Kineticists* vs Sorcerors.
> 
> As for which spell is 'better' it depends.  Sorcerors have access to better spells  at level 9 and higher, so the only real comparisons using fireball can be made from 5-10.  After that, obviously, energy ball (for those few psions that can manifest it) is competing with bigger, nastier spells.




Hey, arcane casters _are_ the masters of evocation spells, right?

How about dominate? It's the same just the other way around (and that psions still get the goodies (like multiple targets, with energy ball this refers to the multiple elements) not wizards/sorcerers with their higher spell level).



> I think (if you have the book) you should try making a psion, somewhere between 5-10th level, and see how many powers you -wish- you had, but don't have the feats for!




I'm quite sure, that this will be easier than with the sorcerer! 

3-4 spells of the highest level compared to 1-2 is quite a difference!



> I don't really think the balance issues even matter after level 15; then its all about who spots who first and unleashes hell. Rod of greater quickening + meteor swarm?




p. 236 DMG 3.5 ?



> Metamorphasis cannot assume the form of construct, outsider, or undead, and the 4th level version (again, -only- egoists will have the 9th level version) is good for 15 hd or less.  Metamorphic Transfer lets you use a form's supernatural ability 3 times per day (as in 3 uses of any supernatural ability per day).
> 
> Big deal.




Uhm... ok, I havn't looked for an example yet, but I am sure, that there will be PLENTY abuses of this feat! There are so many monsters out there...



> yes, but they don't have as many offensive powers in their general list. and in fact they have much fewer powers in general on the list.




Sure. This is what I also identified as one significant disadvantage earlier.

And having not many offensive powers is really not important... You won't need that many, anyways. Who needs 20 offensive powers, if you can use only 4 or 5 of those regularily? It's the same as with the sorcerer, you have to pick lots of multiple purpose utility spells and a good selection of few offensive spells. Psions just have a lil edge here, since they have far quicker access to their high level powers (earlier and more initially), and the powers also often have multiple options built-in, too.



> Well, WotC should have thought of that before they published (for a SECOND time) an inherent-magic caster that needs friggin material components!




Yeah.

Look at my next post! 

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Thanee (Apr 26, 2004)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> I think the main reason people are disagreeing with you is based on the foundation of your argument. In my opinion, and in the opinion of a great many other players, sorcerers are not equel in power to wizards.




Looks like. 



> In my opinion, Psions and Specialist Wizards are well balanced together. A Kineticist and Invoker are both going to dominate the battlefield. Their level of power output are about the same. Some powers are better than spells, and some spells are better than powers. They are just different.




Yep.



> For most of this thread, you have been comparing a kineticist to a sorcerer, which is about equel to a generic wizard (or less so in my opinion). That's about like comparing the damage output of a regular wizard to an Invoker. You just can't do that.




I was using a generic psion actually, with Expanded Knowledge, everyone will have access to energy ball.

And the comparison with the sorcerer is obvious, since you cannot easily compare psion and wizard, because they are so different in how they use powers/spells.



> The sorcerer, on the other hand, falls short of both classes. In my opinion, the spontaneous casting isn't enough to put the sorcerer on even ground. Given the wizards ability to cast any spell in his spellbook in 15min and the free scribe scroll feat, the wizard will almost always have an answer to whatever problem you have.




Well... my experience with the sorcerer is different, but I won't deny, that most people seem to be of this opinion.



> If you really want to see if the psion is overpowered, you should be looking at the other end of the power spectrum....the cleric. But, unfortunately the classes are so different, it'd be hard to compare them.




Yep. And clerics are not as bad as in 3.0, too.



> You just don't get enough powers, PPs, and feats to make psions that are as unbalanced as you make them seem.




You definitely get enough to pick up all the stuff I used in examples. That's actually not much.

Expanded Knowledge a few times. Quicken Power and Psionic Meditation.
What else do they _really_ need in terms of feats? Maybe Power Penetration...



> Another problem I've noticed is your disregard for the psion's lack of 0 level powers. Those powers are very handy and most players will be willing to drop a 1st level power or two to pick up powers like Detect Psionics and Far Hand.




Oh, I make plenty use of those, too. But they are not really compareable to the power of even a 1st level spell/power. I'd only pick up Detect Psionics from those.



> The sorcerer has more known powers. But, some of them are 0 level and I'll admit are not always useful. In the end, I'd consider the number of known powers to be about equel between the psion and sorcerer.




We can quickly make a comparison...

*Sorcerer:*

_1st 4/2
_2nd 5/2
_3rd 5/3
_4th 6/3/1
_5th 6/4/2
_6th 7/4/2/1
_7th 7/5/3/2
_8th 8/5/3/2/1
_9th 8/5/4/3/2
10th 9/5/4/3/2/1
11th 9/5/5/4/3/2
12th 9/5/5/4/3/2/1
13th 9/5/5/4/4/3/2
14th 9/5/5/4/4/3/2/1
15th 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/2
16th 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/2/1
17th 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/2
18th 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/2/1
19th 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/2
20th 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3

*Psion:*

_1st -/3
_2nd -/5
_3rd -/5/2
_4th -/5/4
_5th -/5/4/2
_6th -/5/4/4
_7th -/5/4/4/2
_8th -/5/4/4/4
_9th -/5/4/4/4/2
10th -/5/4/4/4/4
11th -/5/4/4/4/4/1
12th -/5/4/4/4/4/3
13th -/5/4/4/4/4/3/1
14th -/5/4/4/4/4/3/3
15th -/5/4/4/4/4/3/3/1
16th -/5/4/4/4/4/3/3/3
17th -/5/4/4/4/4/3/3/3/1
18th -/5/4/4/4/4/3/3/3/3
19th -/5/4/4/4/4/3/3/3/4
20th -/5/4/4/4/4/3/3/3/6

Show me the levels, the Sorcerer is actually better at! Please! 
Maybe 1st... 

Anyways... since you all are of the opinion, that the sorcerer just sux...

The re-revised Sorcerer

Tell me what you think about the upside down approach. 

Bye
Thanee


----------



## BryonD (Apr 26, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> How about you compare this to a heightened spell. That sounds pretty similar to me.




Ok, different approach, same result.



> Just that the spells have caps, so their usefulness has a limit (to even this out it doesn't cost anything to scale up to that cap). But yeah, in general I do agree with that, altho I have probably mentioned it in another context.
> 
> Bye
> Thanee




By the time the spells caps out, you have new spells that are 2+ levels higher.  An 11th Sorc can still use a 3rd level slot to get 10d6.  The psion's 3rd level slot still does 5d6.  He can augment that power to a 6th level power to get 11d6.  So  a psion can use a 3rd level power and a 6th level slot (11 pts) to get a slightly better result than the 11th level sorcerer gets from a 3rd level spell and a 3rd level slot.  

Yes, the sorcerer's spell caps out at about a 5th level effect, while the psion's can scale on up.  That is a psion advantage.  At higher levels they have more options to select from.

But the psion is clearly more efficient.  A psion gets 1d6/pp (or 1.29d6/pp if you add the +1 for fire powers).  If you equate spells to pp, the sorcerer gets a MUCH better deal.  A sorcerer 10+ gets 10d6 for a 3rd level spell or effectively 2d6/pp (3rd level spell = 5 pp). So the sorcerer can use his lower level slots far more efficiently in exchange for his high level slots being notably less flexible and slightly less potent.  

So far that seems a fair trade.


----------



## Thanee (Apr 26, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> Ok, different approach, same result.




Just that the sorcerer needs a feat (and a full-round action) to do that.

But ok, the augmentation stuff is actually fair...



> ...So far that seems a fair trade.




That is exactly my opinion as well!

Now... based on that... I find it pretty unfair, that psions get higher level powers one level earlier, have 3-4 times as many by the time the sorcerer has exactly 1, have bonus feats, do not need verbal and somatic or material components or feats+full-round actions to achieve that (that is actually quite important in a grapple ), can wear armor, have better skills...

In exchange... sorcerers get a better selection to choose their spells from, mostly.

Bye
Thanee


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## BryonD (Apr 26, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Just that the sorcerer needs a feat (and a full-round action) to do that.
> 
> But ok, the augmentation stuff is actually fair...




OK



> That is exactly my opinion as well!
> 
> Now... based on that... I find it pretty unfair, that psions get higher level powers one level earlier, have 3-4 times as many by the time the sorcerer has exactly 1, have bonus feats, do not need verbal and somatic or material components or feats+full-round actions to achieve that (that is actually quite important in a grapple ), can wear armor, have better skills...
> 
> ...




Most of you points only apply to sorcerers, not wizards.  If you think sorcerers are to weak compared to wizards, then it is a problem with sorcerers and the relative power of psions or anything in the XPH is meaningless.

The other issues existed pre XPH, and were never a problem to me before, I don't see them starting now.

Bottom line, like everyone else, I've only had the book a short time.  But I see both ups and downs and in playing around with it there is no evidence that a psion character will outshine other party members on any consistent basis.


----------



## Thanee (Apr 26, 2004)

ph0rk said:
			
		

> Metamorphasis cannot assume the form of construct, outsider, or undead, and the 4th level version (again, -only- egoists will have the 9th level version) is good for 15 hd or less.  Metamorphic Transfer lets you use a form's supernatural ability 3 times per day (as in 3 uses of any supernatural ability per day).
> 
> Big deal.




Ok, here are some examples...

Pixie (1 HD) - greater invisibility.
Choker (3 HD) - three extra standard actions.
Medusa (6 HD) - turn to stone.

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Apr 26, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> Most of you points only apply to sorcerers, not wizards.




Of course, wizards cannot cast spontaneously, remember?

If you think spontaneous casting is not good, give it to wizards on top of their other abilities. Then you'll quickly see, just how good it is. 

What I am saying is, that sorcerers give up ALL that stuff - compared to the wizard - plus the unlimited spell access to gain spontaneous casting (and a few more spells per day, altho wizards have specialization and pearls of power to even that out); and I believe the ability is worth that. Psions give up NONE of that stuff - again compared to the wizard - except the unlimited spell access to gain an even superior spontaneous casting ability (they don't have more spells per day than wizards (roughly equal probably), but also have access to items and other stuff to build their PP base up). This makes them far superior to sorcerers. And since I am going from the core balance, that sorcerers are as powerful as wizards, it also makes them far superior to wizards as a result.

Now, if this assumption (sorcerer = wizard) is false, the problem - indeed - does not lie with the psion, but with the sorcerer, as you say.



> If you think sorcerers are too weak compared to wizards, ...




I'm actually the only one here (or not?) that does not have this opinion! 

I think wizards and sorcerers are roughly equal, I try to show you (which I think most actually agree with), that psions are much more powerful than sorcerers. Now, this can mean two things... sorcerers are underpowered or psions are overpowered.

Bye
Thanee

P.S. BTW, nice character... converted from 3.0? Since in 3.5 you normally cannot reincarnate into a centaur.


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## The Souljourner (Apr 26, 2004)

Sorcerers are underpowered.  I think we've had all of one sorcerer since 3.0 came out, and this is 10 different players in about 6 different campaigns... if sorcerers were better, I'm sure someone else would have used them.  Compare that to the 4-5 wizards.  Litmus test?  Yeah.

Psions look fine to me.  They definitely seem to be on par with specialist wizards.

Things that matter - having to pay for scaling; having to burn feats to get versatility in power selection (and those powers have to be lower than your highest level).

I'll agree Psions seem better than sorcerers.  But I don't think that's a bad thing.  Sorcerers kinda suck, unless you're happy throwing the same 3 spells around for your entire career.

-The Souljourner


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## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 26, 2004)

How long has 3.0 been out now? 
People have said the Sorcerer is too weak since the day it hit the shelves. Now, after a few years of playing one, and a revision, people still say they are too weak.

That alone is enough to really take a look at the Sorcerer's power level. Why they didn't fix them in 3.5 I'll never know. The ability to swap out spells really helped, but it's not enough.

So yea, the psion is more powerful than the sorcerer. That's good. I'd hate to see it crippled like it was in 3.0 anyway. Now they just need to fix the sorcerer.

If you want to compare the psion to something, compare it to a specialty wizard. It's the closest thing to the psion on the power scale.


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## Thanee (Apr 26, 2004)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> If you want to compare the psion to something, compare it to a specialty wizard. It's the closest thing to the psion on the power scale.




That is unfortunately not so easy, spontaneous casting/manifesting versus prepared casting is hard to judge. 

Anyways, take a look into the house rules forum and tell me, if you think my re-revised sorcerer is balanced with the psion (and wizard)! 

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Apr 27, 2004)

The Souljourner said:
			
		

> I'll agree Psions seem better than sorcerers.  But I don't think that's a bad thing.  Sorcerers kinda suck, unless you're happy throwing the same 3 spells around for your entire career.




Hmm... note that psions have (in the end) only a similar amount of powers. They will be using the same ones over and over again as well. They have it a bit better, tho, since they can scale the lower level ones to high levels and throughout their career have more powers to manifest as well.

Bye
Thanee


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## Irritating Stick (Apr 27, 2004)

Just wanted to pipe up and say that Psychic Reformation would allow a Psion to trade out his powers like a Sorcerer is able to do.  

Incidently, it would also allow them to Craft many types of psionic items.


----------



## ph0rk (Apr 27, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Ok, here are some examples...
> 
> Pixie (1 HD) - greater invisibility.




using a 4th level power, and then a feat, to cast a 4th level spell doesn't seem bad to me.



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> Choker (3 HD) - three extra standard actions.




Not familiar with other things the choker form provides, but 3 standard actions (only usable while in that form, mind you) doesn't seem that bad.



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> Medusa (6 HD) - turn to stone.




who cares? sure it's nice, but not a game breaker at 7th level

Most of the sickest of supernatural abilities are owned by aberrations; check those out.

Also; bear in mind that you can't become something with more hit dice than you have manifester levels; no beholder disintegrate at level 7.

And, as always, unless the psion is an egoist, they have to spend -another- feat just to get this power, and then they must be level 9, not 7.

Find me an ability that a wizard can't do (or a sorceror for that matter) within a level of when an egoist could do it with this feat and power, then we'll talk.



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> I was using a generic psion actually, with Expanded Knowledge, everyone will have access to energy ball.




No, they won't.  It isn't as if the psion has an unlimited number of feats, and on top of that they still can't have energy ball until level 9.  thats 3 levels of sorceror PWNAGE until the non-kineticist can even play the same game.  And then, once they are playing the same game, the sorceror will be able to toss out well more fully-scaled (not even counting maximized, etc) balls of flaming death than the psion.

If you really want to complain about a psionic character out-nuking a Sorceror; check out the wilder.




			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> Hey, arcane casters are the masters of evocation spells, right?




No, Evokers are the masters of evocation spells; Sorcerors pale in comparison.






			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> How about dominate? It's the same just the other way around (and that psions still get the goodies (like multiple targets, with energy ball this refers to the multiple elements) not wizards/sorcerers with their higher spell level).




What? have you even read what the psionic dominate is like?  And, like most good powers, Only a Telepath can get this one without a feat.  
I don't know how you can even compare them; duration concentration? for a telepath?!?  A sorceror at 9th level will be able to out dominate a telepath, period.  Days per level, people.  Can we restrict comparisons to powers -all- psions have access to w/o a feat?  It is really easy to just say you can use a feat to get a power without playing a psion and understanding what you -aren't- getting because you're getting a feat with that power.  Item creation, anyone?


----------



## ph0rk (Apr 27, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> That is unfortunately not so easy, spontaneous casting/manifesting versus prepared casting is hard to judge.





Well, which is it?  You say the Sorceror is well balanced with the wizard, and you've accepted that the psion is more or less balanced with the wizard.... so whats the problem?

A wilder can do all the things you've used as psion examples, and do them better, as none of your examples used more than 1 or 2 feats.  I don't see anyone claiming the wilder is unbalanced.  The fact that you've said that you don't think the feat use proves to me you don't fully understand everything in the XPH; psions need those feats!  And as for psions being able to have a metapsionic feat and power penetration... read the descriptions.   Thats right; you can use one or the other. not both on the same power.


----------



## Irritating Stick (Apr 27, 2004)

ph0rk said:
			
		

> What? have you even read what the psionic dominate is like?  And, like most good powers, Only a Telepath can get this one without a feat.
> I don't know how you can even compare them; duration concentration? for a telepath?!?  A sorceror at 9th level will be able to out dominate a telepath, period.  Days per level, people.  Can we restrict comparisons to powers -all- psions have access to w/o a feat?  It is really easy to just say you can use a feat to get a power without playing a psion and understanding what you -aren't- getting because you're getting a feat with that power.  Item creation, anyone?




There's an errata in the works, Dominate can be augmented to up to 1 day/level

XPH Clarifications


----------



## BryonD (Apr 27, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Of course, wizards cannot cast spontaneously, remember?
> 
> If you think spontaneous casting is not good, give it to wizards on top of their other abilities. Then you'll quickly see, just how good it is.
> 
> What I am saying is, that sorcerers give up ALL that stuff - compared to the wizard - plus the unlimited spell access to gain spontaneous casting (and a few more spells per day, altho wizards have specialization and pearls of power to even that out); and I believe the ability is worth that. Psions give up NONE of that stuff - again compared to the wizard - except the unlimited spell access to gain an even superior spontaneous casting ability (they don't have more spells per day than wizards (roughly equal probably), but also have access to items and other stuff to build their PP base up). This makes them far superior to sorcerers. And since I am going from the core balance, that sorcerers are as powerful as wizards, it also makes them far superior to wizards as a result.




But the psions ALSO give up scaling of effectiveness per power (or spell) slot level.

That is still a very big deal.  A 3rd level slot (5 pp) NEVER gets any better for a psion.

Use the wizard as a base.  The sorcerer and the psion each give up soemthing to gain on the fly casting.  The sorcerer gives up all the extras as you describe.  The psion gives up scaling.  

I'd rather give up the extras than scaling.  Augmentation is VERY different than scaling because scaling is free.  Now, the psions gain other perks that you previously covered.  Those make up for the lose of scaling being so weak.

An 18 Chr 10th level sorcerer can throw sixteen 10d fireballs per day.
An 18 Int 10th level psion can throw ten 10d+10 fireballs per day.
And the psion will be down to 8 pp.
The sorcerer will have 6 cantrips, 7 first and 7 second level spells left.
So that is better than a 60% increase in efficiency for the sorcerer.
PLUS the sorcerer in this example has chosen to "waste" his 4th and 5th level slots on 3rd level spells.  He could potentially do better with higher level spells.  
The psion is working at peak efficiency, using basically all of his juice on effective level 5.5 powers.

But the psion gains bonus feats, metal "casting", etc, and these things easily make up for that disadvantage.

Like I said, I've only been through it for a short time and only had one real gaming session so far.  In 6 months I may think it goes a bit to far.  OTOH, I may think it doesn't go far enough.  But on early review, and considering the somewhat subjective nature of some of the contrasts, I think it works "good enough" for players to have fun either way.



> Now, if this assumption (sorcerer = wizard) is false, the problem - indeed - does not lie with the psion, but with the sorcerer, as you say.
> 
> 
> I'm actually the only one here (or not?) that does not have this opinion!
> ...




I agree that sorcerers work fine.  A touch boring at times, but mechanically fine.

I have just shown that sorcerers are worth more apples than psions.
I am certain that you can just as easily show that psions are worth more oranges.
That would be a good thing.

Just don't try to make to much straight up comparison between psion and sorcerer just because neither of them prepare spells.  It is not prepared vs. spontaneous.  It is prepared vs sponatneous vs power points.  And PP vs. spontaneous is just as big a difference as either is against prepared.  



> P.S. BTW, nice character... converted from 3.0? Since in 3.5 you normally cannot reincarnate into a centaur.




Thanks.  It is my wife's character that she has played since right after the first psi book came out.  I actually house-ruled it quite a bit at that time because I thought (and still do) that the original psion sucked.  Eventually my house rules were dumped when ITCK and mindscapes came out because I liked those and adapted to using them straight.

As far as the centaur thing, eh, I never let the rules get in the way of a good game.  You'll note that I did not give her any centaur HD or LA.  She was already like level 9 or 10 when the change occured.  She already had more HP than a centaur, so I just assumed that they were "built-in".  And as a psion, most of the perks of the centaur were reduced.  The other players agree that her character is no stronger overall than any other, so we just go with it.


----------



## Shadowdweller (Apr 27, 2004)

A few observations:
Perhaps what concerns me most about psionics is that psions are nearly impervious to the classic checks and balances upon arcane casters or at least can easily be made so:

- Psionics can be manifested while grappled or even paralyzed.
- Rogues?  Psions cannot be caught surprised or flat-footed (Detect Hostile Intent.  Compare this bad boy to Foresight!)
- Blindness easily defeated (Synesthete, Touch Field)
- Cannot easily be killed with damage (Fiery Discorporation)
- Difficult to interrupt manifesting (Psionic Focus can be expended for the equivalent of a natural 15 on concentration checks), although I suppose a normal spellcaster could easily take wild talent and accomplish this themselves.
- Immediate manifestation of energy resistance powers to get around the surprise fireball (Detect Hostile Intent will allow you to get around the flatfooted part)
- Sickeningly enough, psionic powers can even be manifested while _confused_ (Unconditional Power Feat).
- Dispelling?  There's that hour/ML power, Dispelling Buffer to puts things in the psion's favor.

Yes, these all require a significant inventment.  Yes, there are limitations.  Mages also often invest significant resources to defending themselves, however.  How many of you have experienced that BBEG mage nemesis who just won't die?  How much worse would it be if he/she/it were lacking most of the weaknesses you already try to use?


----------



## ph0rk (Apr 27, 2004)

Shadowdweller said:
			
		

> A few observations:
> Perhaps what concerns me most about psionics is that psions are nearly impervious to the classic checks and balances upon arcane casters or at least can easily be made so:
> 
> - Psionics can be manifested while grappled or even paralyzed.




From the XPH:
"To manifest a power, you must concentrate. If something treatens to interrupt your concentration while you're manifesting a power, you must succeed on a Concentration check or lose the power points without manifesting the power."

It then goes on to list the SAME dc to manifest while pinned as to cast while pinned. DC 20.

A wizard can cast a still silent spell while paralyzed too. so what?  (You mean you don't mem a still silent dispel and a still silent mage hand?)



			
				Shadowdweller said:
			
		

> - Rogues?  Psions cannot be caught surprised or flat-footed (Detect Hostile Intent.  Compare this bad boy to Foresight!)




Compare Detect Hostile Intent to an invisible vampiric rogue.  ouch. 

Also no bonus to ac and reflex saves, and of course you could still be sniped from 35+ feet away. (no sneak, but you can't sneak attack from that distance anyway).



			
				Shadowdweller said:
			
		

> - Blindness easily defeated (Synesthete, Touch Field)




Synthesthete is 1 minute/level, not a permenant cure.  

There is no power named Touch Field; did you mean Touchsight?

Also a duration of 1 minute/level. (and short radius; its really blindsight for 60')

Niether is a remove blindness/deafness.



			
				Shadowdweller said:
			
		

> - Cannot easily be killed with damage (Fiery Discorporation)




Kineticist 5, so other psions can't touch it till 11th level.


Nice, as long as there is a fire around. (always carry a torch?).  If its an encounter gone bad, the party still eats it; however.  Seems fine for a 5th level power to me.




			
				Shadowdweller said:
			
		

> - Difficult to interrupt manifesting (Psionic Focus can be expended for the equivalent of a natural 15 on concentration checks), although I suppose a normal spellcaster could easily take wild talent and accomplish this themselves.




You forgot to read that part about a full round action to regain focus, that provokes an AOO.  Also; all that great juju that worked with your focus turns off. 



			
				Shadowdweller said:
			
		

> - Immediate manifestation of energy resistance powers to get around the surprise fireball (Detect Hostile Intent will allow you to get around the flatfooted part)




sure, if its on. Unless its a vampire wizard 
(or a wizard with mind blank on, which any self-respecting wizard who is capable should do)



			
				Shadowdweller said:
			
		

> - Sickeningly enough, psionic powers can even be manifested while _confused_ (Unconditional Power Feat).




You must expend focus, so unless you can REGAIN focus while confused, you're borked.  (Use it once till you are unconfused, nausiated, etc)



			
				Shadowdweller said:
			
		

> - Dispelling?  There's that hour/ML power, Dispelling Buffer to puts things in the psion's favor.




Kineticist/Psychic Warrior 6.  So, no other psions till 15th (when they get the first feat they can use to buy the power).  It adds a +5 to the dc to dispel any ongoing effects (but note: not items) on the recipient.  Not that big a deal for a 6th level power.




			
				Shadowdweller said:
			
		

> Yes, these all require a significant inventment.  Yes, there are limitations.  Mages also often invest significant resources to defending themselves, however.  How many of you have experienced that BBEG mage nemesis who just won't die?  How much worse would it be if he/she/it were lacking most of the weaknesses you already try to use?




You mean the BBEG might escape the heroic band of adventurers?  It might be IMMUNE TO FIREBALL!?!?

Bring on the Monk Vampire Lord, anything but an evil Psion!


----------



## Shadowdweller (Apr 27, 2004)

You want to start trading insults?  I’ll be more than happy to oblige.  Somewhere out there, though, is this thing called the “big picture.”


> A wizard can cast a still silent spell while paralyzed too. so what? (You mean you don't mem a still silent dispel and a still silent mage hand?)



 You mean a still and silent spell without materials.  The psion pays no increase in casting cost and has no opportunity cost for even keeping such a thing prepared.



> Niether is a remove blindness/deafness.



 Only needs to be long enough to either finish the battle, escape the battle, or effect a cure.  The psion doesn't suffer the immediate debilitation of being unable to target the enemy.



> You forgot to read that part about a full round action to regain focus, that provokes an AOO. Also; all that great juju that worked with your focus turns off



 You forgot to read such wonderful feats as Psychic Containment or Psionic Meditation.  If you stick around in a situation where you need to make concentration checks more often, then calling you “strategically challenged” would be a compliment.



> Compare Detect Hostile Intent to an invisible vampiric rogue. ouch.



 “I’m gonna turn myself into a vampire just so I can catch that annoying psion.” Very viable strategic choice, that.



> Also no bonus to ac and reflex saves, and of course you could still be sniped from 35+ feet away. (no sneak, but you can't sneak attack from that distance anyway).



 Congratulations.  One’s a second level power, one’s a ninth level spell.  Hmm, if we cut out chaotic creatures we’d cut out maybe half of what Gate can do.  Think that’d make for a balanced second level spell?  Or maybe if we limited miracle to replicating cleric spells only.  That’s surely not worth a 3rd level slot!



> You must expend focus, so unless you can REGAIN focus while confused, you're borked. (Use it once till you are unconfused, nausiated, etc)



 After one manifestation you should either be a) not confused, nauseated, etc anymore or b) not in such pressing need of being free to act normally for the next few minutes.

You see, the wizard is ostensibly balanced because it has real weaknesses despite world-breaking power and immense versatility.  Enter the psion, whose power is at the very least comparable.  Does the psion have those same, EXPLOITABLE weaknesses?  Really?

To the rest of you, my sincere apologies for that outburst.  Allow me once again to reiterate my original point: Psions are immune or nearly immune to many of the classic anti-arcane tactics.

*And on another note:*There are obviously people here with WILDLY different concepts of what 'game balance' means.  It's one thing to calculate opportunity costs of dealing with/creating some offensive or defensive tactics.  Or opportunity costs of choosing one class over another.  It's quite a different thing entirely to reason that the power to create or destroy the world is balanced merely because you can only use it once per day.


----------



## Spatula (Apr 27, 2004)

Shadowdweller said:
			
		

> There are obviously people here with WILDLY different concepts of what 'game balance' means.



Different strokes for different folks.

Psion are better off than other spellcasters in some circumstances (you forgot one: the silence spell).  But it's not like they have no foils.  Aside from all the anti-psionic feats in the XPH, there are psion powers that are made to take out other psions (brain lock, ecto coccoon, etc.).


----------



## Thanee (Apr 27, 2004)

ph0rk said:
			
		

> using a 4th level power, and then a feat, to cast a 4th level spell doesn't seem bad to me.




No, if it only does that, I agree. But it does a lot more than that (besides it increases the duration of the spell by factor ten as well).



> Not familiar with other things the choker form provides, but 3 standard actions (only usable while in that form, mind you) doesn't seem that bad.




Well normally you need a 9th level spell/power to achieve this effect (granted it's even more powerful then, since not limited to 3 "uses", but still).



> who cares? sure it's nice, but not a game breaker at 7th level




Lemme see... *browses in book* Ah, there... Flesh to Stone... 6th level... *browses back* 6th level spells/powers are achieved at 11th character level normally.



> Most of the sickest of supernatural abilities are owned by aberrations; check those out.




Yeah, but that doesn't make the other ones weak, or does it?



> Find me an ability that a wizard can't do (or a sorceror for that matter) within a level of when an egoist could do it with this feat and power, then we'll talk.




See above. Flesh to Stone. And it's really not one ability I'm worried about, but the fact, that this feat literally grants HUNDREDS of those abilities!!!



> No, they won't.




Points to the word "access". Not necessarily means that everyone wants it.



> If you really want to complain about a psionic character out-nuking a Sorceror; check out the wilder.




I have only looked that up quickly... what's so bad about the wilder? The automatic augmentation seems pretty fair (it's only the couple bonus augmentations and at a risk as well; he still has to augment normally, if I get this right). And they have severe limits (i.e. really, really few powers). But as I said, I havn't checked the class in detail.



> No, Evokers are the masters of evocation spells; Sorcerors pale in comparison.




Really? How so? And what is it that makes an Evoker better than, say, a Diviner in evocation?



> What? have you even read what the psionic dominate is like?




Yes, I have. You obviously have not. 

Just so you know, too, psions CAN change the duration to minutes, hours or even days instead of concentration! Has been clarified already and will be in the upcoming errata.



> Can we restrict comparisons to powers -all- psions have access to w/o a feat?




No, comparisons have to include all reasonable options (see below) or they are not accurate.



> It is really easy to just say you can use a feat to get a power without playing a psion and understanding what you -aren't- getting because you're getting a feat with that power.  Item creation, anyone?




Well, I am going from the sorcerer, that doesn't have bonus feats and that has to burn feats on metamagic. Psions don't need that. So yes, they have enough feats for Expanded Knowledge, and I'm quite sure you will see the feat quite often on a psion character sheet as well.

Item creation, sure... how many more than one of those feats you really want?

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Thanee (Apr 27, 2004)

ph0rk said:
			
		

> Well, which is it?  You say the Sorceror is well balanced with the wizard, and you've accepted that the psion is more or less balanced with the wizard.... so whats the problem?




Ahem... please don't take my arguments out of context.

I said the sorcerer is well-balanced with the psion, yes.
I have never said, that the wizard is. In fact, I think he is not (like the sorcerer).

I also said, it's harder to compare to very different approaches (sorcerer - wizard or psion - wizard), instead of too very similar (sorcerer - psion).

I can't really say about the wilder... maybe he is as bad... I honestly don't know by now.
I just see a lot of restrictions there, the psion does not have them to that degree (only up to what the sorcerer has, too).



> The fact that you've said that you don't think the feat use proves to me you don't fully understand everything in the XPH;




And that comes from a person, that says Metamorphic Transfer is "no big deal". 



> psions need those feats!




Make a list please, what feats psions ABSOLUTELY need to keep up!
I can't find that many, really... Psionic Meditation is one...



> And as for psions being able to have a metapsionic feat and power penetration... read the descriptions.   Thats right; you can use one or the other. not both on the same power.




Yes, I know. Check out my re-revised psion to see that I do. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Apr 27, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> But the psions ALSO give up scaling of effectiveness per power (or spell) slot level.
> 
> That is still a very big deal.  A 3rd level slot (5 pp) NEVER gets any better for a psion.




Hey, the above was based on the assumption, that augmentation and the added flexibility and all the benefits arising from those are quite balanced with the automatic scaling and caps. So this is a non-issue.



> Use the wizard as a base.  The sorcerer and the psion each give up soemthing to gain on the fly casting.  The sorcerer gives up all the extras as you describe.  The psion gives up scaling.




No, they don't. They just use a different method of scaling, which has advantages and disadvantages, of course.



> An 18 Chr 10th level sorcerer can throw sixteen 10d fireballs per day.
> An 18 Int 10th level psion can throw ten 10d+10 fireballs per day.




If you are going to compare fireballs, look for my much more accurate example above. Of course, even that example doesn't really say anything. 



> I have just shown that sorcerers are worth more apples than psions.




No you have only listed one example out of million possible situations, what if the psion has the upper hand in the other millions minus the one? Examples don't really prove anything, you can only use them to illustrate something.



> Just don't try to make to much straight up comparison between psion and sorcerer just because neither of them prepare spells.  It is not prepared vs. spontaneous.  It is prepared vs sponatneous vs power points.  And PP vs. spontaneous is just as big a difference as either is against prepared.




Absolutely.

But you can't pick out a disadvantage of augmentation and compare it with scaling without keeping the many advantages in mind as well. Get back to the post where I replied to this...



> > ...So far that seems a fair trade.
> 
> 
> 
> That is exactly my opinion as well!




That is the assumption I make, that powers and spells are about equal including augmentation, scaling, caps and all what is unique to them.

Then, I say, that psions get a lot of other benefits over the sorcerer, which the sorcerer has nothing to compare against.

Oh, and please don't say I'm comparing apples with oranges, since I am not. I picked the sorcerer exactly because he is very similar. Spells and powers are very similar, many even equal. It's not like comparing the way a fighter deals damage with that of the cleric or wizard. It's comparing to very, very similar approaches. Maybe they are two different kinds of apples, but surely not as far apart as you suggest!



> The other players agree that her character is no stronger overall than any other, so we just go with it.




Sounds fair enough. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Apr 27, 2004)

ph0rk said:
			
		

> A wizard can cast a still silent spell while paralyzed too. so what?  (You mean you don't mem a still silent dispel and a still silent mage hand?)




*LOL*

You really have nerves... the advantage here is, that the wizard needs those two feats (and actually have them applied, too), three actually (Eschew Materials), the psion gets it for free!

If that's not an advantage in your eyes...

Now, let's take a look at the sorcerer... they cannot even use metamagic in a grapple!

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Apr 27, 2004)

Spatula said:
			
		

> Psion are better off than other spellcasters in some circumstances (you forgot one: the silence spell).  But it's not like they have no foils.  Aside from all the anti-psionic feats in the XPH, there are psion powers that are made to take out other psions (brain lock, ecto coccoon, etc.).




Yeah, one of the problems I have with that stuff is, that while it might not be bad, much of it is specifically tailored to deal with psions and useless against anything else.

Who would learn such stuff, unless you are some kind of psion-hunter (not very common) you won't, because of the extremely limited applications. Simple as that.

So, while surely some of those are nice, they can almost (!) be neglected.

Bye
Thanee


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## Telperion (Apr 27, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> * As much powers per day as wizards have spells per day, if they distribute evenly.
> * Many more high level powers per day than any other caster, if they choose so.
> * Equal or more powers known as sorcerers.
> * Always more high level powers known as sorcerers.
> ...




* drools *
Still waiting for that book to ship over, but I'm hopeful it will happen one of these days...


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## green slime (Apr 27, 2004)

Telperion said:
			
		

> * drools *
> Still waiting for that book to ship over, but I'm hopeful it will happen one of these days...




Ordered mine from amazon.co.uk

Arrived after two days...

(Sweden)


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## glass (Apr 27, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> I'm actually the only one here (or not?) that does not have this opinion!




Not quite the only one. I don't think sorcerers are weaker than wizards, either.

glass.


----------



## green slime (Apr 27, 2004)

Well, I feel that sorcerers are weaker than wizards. IMO, and YMMV...


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## BryonD (Apr 27, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> No, they don't. They just use a different method of scaling, which has advantages and disadvantages, of course.






> Oh, and please don't say I'm comparing apples with oranges, since I am not. I picked the sorcerer exactly because he is very similar. Spells and powers are very similar, many even equal. It's not like comparing the way a fighter deals damage with that of the cleric or wizard. It's comparing to very, very similar approaches. Maybe they are two different kinds of apples, but surely not as far apart as you suggest!
> Bye
> Thanee




Well, that is where we are just going to disagree.

The sorcerer scaling is vastly better than the psions and the difference makes sorcerers as different from psions as they are from wizards. (again, augmentation is NOT a version of scaling, a psion always get the same result from a third level power - 5d.  Even an epic psion will only get 5d from a third level power.)

There are many, many examples that mimic the pattern I presented above where the total potential of a sorcerer vastly overshadows that of the psion.

It is PLENTY of a disadvantage to the psion to justify their advantages.


----------



## Dinkeldog (Apr 27, 2004)

First, make sure we keep things civil here.  I've seen a couple accusations of other people tossing insults and complaints that people are taking arguments out of context.  I'm seeing few insults here, mostly just a difference of opinion.  That's the nice thing about opinions--there's enough to go around.

Now...

I'm not seeing the argument that psions have more powers than sorcerers have spells.  At a couple lower levels they come close, but all of the psion's 0-level talents (and free manifestations) are rolled into 1st level.  To make the #powers > #spells comparison, you have to eliminate the 0-level spells.  That probably makes sense to some, but won't to others.  My favorite 0-level powers are now 1st level, still cost a "power known" and now cost PP.

I also don't care for arguments like "a psion will never be sneak attacked because of power XXX" with an assumption that every psions will have that power.


----------



## Zhure (Apr 27, 2004)

I've taken a look at the psions and they seem more powerful than wizards at first blush.

Upon closer examination they don't appear to be.

Only 1 metapsionic feat per manifestation until epic levels. Compare to a Wizard launching a Maximized Empowered Fireball (8th level equivalent - 73 points, 17th level caster). The Kineticist (a specialist) spends 15 pp on Energy Ball to get either 15d6 (52 points of damage) at 15th level, or at 17th level spends 17 pp to get a 17d6 Energy Ball (59 points of damage). Using metapsionics the psion Maximizes for 11d6 for 15 pp (losing his psionic focus and yielding  66 points of damage) or empowers 13d6 for 15 pp (losing his psionic focus and yielding 68 points of damage.) The psion is a wee bit behind in damage, but a lot ahead in flexibility since he effectively gets Energy Substitution for free and doesn't have to prepare.

We can further compare examples of Extended or Maximized powers vs spells but the wizard has relatively the same benefits. The Psion has to spend an extra MEA and an extra feat (Psionic Meditation) or a full round, double-provoking an AoO much of the time. The Wizard has to prepare in advance.

- The Wizard gets a familiar for free. The Psion does not.

Personally I think the balance points are pretty close. The only real way to compare the two camps is for the "Psions are overpowered camp" is to build a psion and rate it against a Sorcerer or Wizard built by the other side and do a side-by-side comparison. Too often in these sorts of debates there's a lot of talk of hypotheical wizards (Schroedingers Wizard, I call it, he's all things all the time, indeterminate). Wizards pay an opportunity cost in spellbooks and scrolls, feats and schools. Psions's opportunity costs are in their feat and discipline selections. Picking one path blocks another, so the psion who can use Metamorphic Transfer probably is an egoist and he'll be weaker than a Transmuter for a few levels because he gets his cool polymorph ability a little later. Afterwards he'll be a little more powerful.

While one feat gives the metamorph a lot of supernatural options, the summoner wizard gains a lot of supernatural options via his summoned animals and at no feat cost with a lot lower risk to himself. 

It's all about trade-offs.

So far, the arcanists and the psioncists seem fairly balanced to me.

Greg


----------



## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 27, 2004)

Zhure said:
			
		

> Lots of good stuff...




Thanks, that's what I've been trying to say. In my opinion, psions and specialty wizards are balanced. Each have their advantages and you can use those advantages against the other's weaknesses all day to try to prove your point. They're balanced, just different. Apples and oranges.

On the other hand, I still feel sorcerers are weaker than wizards (and psions). It wouldn't take much, maybe just a few feats or more skill points, to bump them up with the others.



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> And what is it that makes an Evoker better than, say, a Diviner in evocation?


----------



## ph0rk (Apr 27, 2004)

Shadowdweller said:
			
		

> You want to start trading insults?  I’ll be more than happy to oblige.




Not really, my point was your things a psion was 'better at' were relatively trivial.  If you want to keep up though, go ahead.


----------



## ph0rk (Apr 27, 2004)

>>Find me an ability that a wizard can't do (or a sorceror for that matter) within a level of when an egoist could do it with this feat and power, then we'll talk.


			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> See above. Flesh to Stone. And it's really not one ability I'm worried about, but the fact, that this feat literally grants HUNDREDS of those abilities!!!



Technically a wizard could cast that much earlier with a scroll. (as could a scorceror). Granted, thats a spell a wizard can't actually cast, but they can certainly make use of it otherwise.

I -believe- this is the only way a Psion can use that ability, and it does cost 2 feats plue 9 power points per use.  It isn't as if they can become a Djinn or anything.

The other bit is, how is a Psion going to assume the form of a creature he or she has never seen or read about?  If they don't exist in a certain world, it'd be even harder!

>>> What? have you even read what the psionic dominate is like?


			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> Yes, I have. You obviously have not.
> 
> 
> Just so you know, too, psions CAN change the duration to minutes, hours or even days instead of concentration! Has been clarified already and will be in the upcoming errata.




I have heard that, and it ain't published yet, now is it?







			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> Well, I am going from the sorcerer, that doesn't have bonus feats and that has to burn feats on metamagic. Psions don't need that. So yes, they have enough feats for Expanded Knowledge, and I'm quite sure you will see the feat quite often on a psion character sheet as well.
> 
> Item creation, sure... how many more than one of those feats you really want?




My point is that you -must- use expanded knowledge to gain some of the powers that mimic relatively common spells.  Fly, Dominate, Energy Ball, Metamorphasis - all these are list powers and require feats to attain.  On top of that you can't even learn them with a feat until you can manifest powers one level higher.  

Have you made a mid or high level psion and really thought about what abilities you'd actually like to have, and what you had to do to get them?



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> I said the sorcerer is well-balanced with the psion, yes.
> I have never said, that the wizard is. In fact, I think he is not (like the sorcerer).



Is that what you meant to say?

----

This discussion has obviously descended to minutae; we can debate specific powers vs specific spells for days and days.  Apparently a small few people beleive that Psions are unstoppable; so be it.  I'm not here to change your mind.  I don't believe they are.  Yes they do things differenly than Arcanists, because they aren't arcanists.  In my opinion, it would have been pretty stupid if they published a book that contained nothing but a glorified spell-point system and arcane spells.




			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> Item creation, sure... how many more than one of those feats you really want?




To some, thats what playing a caster is all about.

Wondrous items (for you and your party)
Magic arms and Armor (for the meat shields)
Craft Dorje (same reason a Wizard would; extra nuking when in a tight spot.  Or a self-only healing stick)

The first two are ones I'd definately want.

for the record, if a psion is to use Expanded Knowledge to gain new powers, these are the max level powers he or she can gain, and what level they can be gained at:

1st   (level 3 feat)
2nd   (level 5 class feat)
2nd   (level 6 feat)
4th   (level 9 feat)
4th   (level 10 class feat)
5th   (level  12 feat)
7th    (level 15 feat)
7th    (level  15 class feat)
8th    (level 18 feat)
8th    (level 20 class feat)

That is the maximum number of powers a Psion is able to pick up with Expanded Knowledge.  Obviously they aren't getting many other feats (2 at character creation +1 if human).


There are a number of anti-Psion feats in the book that require no psionic ability; and in many cases they apply only to psionics, not arcane of divine magic. 


Yes, Psions are powerful. Wizards are too. And so are Clerics. And Ninjas.

None of them are more powerful than the DM using his wand of rule 0 though.

(No, Sorcerors are not REAL ULTIMATE POWER)

sidebar: I really think Sorcerors need eaither more feats or 4 or 6 skill points to make them more in line with all the other various casters.


----------



## Spatula (Apr 27, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Who would learn such stuff, unless you are some kind of psion-hunter (not very common) you won't, because of the extremely limited applications. Simple as that.



What are you talking about?  Brain Lock & Ecto Coccoon are the psionic versions of Hold Person.  Both powers stop the target from acting, they're not specifically anti-psion powers.  Brain Lock stops mental actions, which stops not only psions but spell-like abilities as well.  Even if the target has none of these, it still can't do anything else.  Ecto Coccoon doesn't stop mental actions but it stops movement, blocks line of effect, and is immune to dispelling.  Why is the use of these powers so "extremely limited"?


----------



## Spatula (Apr 27, 2004)

ph0rk said:
			
		

> I -believe- this is the only way a Psion can use that ability, and it does cost 2 feats plue 9 power points per use. It isn't as if they can become a Djinn or anything.



Crystallize (shaper 6) is the psionic equivalent of Flesh to Stone.


----------



## Spatula (Apr 27, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> You really have nerves... the advantage here is, that the wizard needs those two feats (and actually have them applied, too), three actually (Eschew Materials), the psion gets it for free!



Two feats.  Neither Dispel Magic nor Mage Hand have a material component.


----------



## James McMurray (Apr 27, 2004)

> Only needs to be long enough to either finish the battle, escape the battle, or effect a cure. The psion doesn't suffer the immediate debilitation of being unable to target the enemy.



Blindsight: second level sor/wiz spell. Synesthete and Touch Sight are just psionically flavored versions of this.



> Congratulations. One’s a second level power, one’s a ninth level spell. Hmm, if we cut out chaotic creatures we’d cut out maybe half of what Gate can do. Think that’d make for a balanced second level spell? Or maybe if we limited miracle to replicating cleric spells only. That’s surely not worth a 3rd level slot!



Foresight is hardly a good spell, especially at 9th level, unless your DM interprets it very loosely. I haven't seen Detect Hostile Intent, so I don't know how it compares. Is it like the other detection spells in that it has a concentration duration?

I do agree that the ability to easily manifest while grappled is a big benefit for psions, but I don't think it makes them broken. Unconditional Power requires +8 power points. An equivilent version could be extrapolated for wizards that costs +5 spell levels. Unconditional Power is nice, but its mainly for BBEGs in my opinion. Its way too situational for my tastes as a PC, at least until a very late level, and at that point you've got your cleric buddy to remove those conditions for you.



> It's quite a different thing entirely to reason that the power to create or destroy the world is balanced merely because you can only use it once per day.



I haven't read the whole thread. Did somebody actually say that?



> have only looked that up quickly... what's so bad about the wilder? The automatic augmentation seems pretty fair (it's only the couple bonus augmentations and at a risk as well; he still has to augment normally, if I get this right). And they have severe limits (i.e. really, really few powers). But as I said, I havn't checked the class in detail.



The Wilder is a psionic version of an adept with a few cute addons. Most of what it does can be mimcked by a psion without any risk of removing yourself from the batle for a full round by dazing yourself. What few perks it has compared to a psion don't make up for the lack of powers known and bonus feats. I'm in the process of starting up an all psion campaign and the only class that will not be represented is the Wilder, because his bonuses in no way make up for his penalties.


----------



## Shadowdweller (Apr 27, 2004)

@James McMurray:


> Blindsight: second level sor/wiz spell. Synesthete and Touch Sight are just psionically flavored versions of this.



 I was under the impression that there wasn't any sort of core blindsight spell.  Where's it from, anyway?  I may have seen something like this way back when, but I'm all but positive it was of a considerably higher level (seeing as how Darkvision is a second level arcane spell).



> Foresight is hardly a good spell, especially at 9th level, unless your DM interprets it very loosely. I haven't seen Detect Hostile Intent, so I don't know how it compares. Is it like the other detection spells in that it has a concentration duration?



 10 min/level and the part about not being surprised or flatfooted is directly stated without being linked to range.  (Which makes a hyperliteralist interpretation very potent, although the general intent probably IS that it won't protect from creatures outside of range surprising you).



> I haven't read the whole thread. Did somebody actually say that?



 An exaggeration of some previous lines of reasoning.



> Unconditional Power requires +8 power points.



 That's true, it's pretty costly.  I suppose it's the concept of being able to manifest while _confused_ that offends me.

@Dinkeldog:
There's a subtle, but very critical difference between this example:


> I also don't care for arguments like "a psion will never be sneak attacked because of power XXX" with an assumption that every psions will have that power.



 and my thesis:


> Perhaps what concerns me most about psionics is that psions are nearly impervious to the classic checks and balances upon arcane casters or at least can easily be made so:



 Then again, it's not for me to say whether or not you're making a (mostly/partially) unrelated generalization.

@phork:


> Not really, my point was your things a psion was 'better at' were relatively trivial.



 That's funny.  Because what I saw was a list of strategic misinterpretations or highly impractical and inefficient means by which an arcane caster might sort of accomplish the same thing.


----------



## ph0rk (Apr 27, 2004)

James McMurray said:
			
		

> I do agree that the ability to easily manifest while grappled is a big benefit for psions, but I don't think it makes them broken.





Anyone can cast while grappled (or pinned), the concentration DC is 20. Granted the spell must not have a somatic component, but this can be got around with still spell, and is little different than discussing a wizard in chains.  (And if its a comperable level monk, the wizard might as well be in chains )

There is then of course another check to see if the caster/manifester provokes an AOO.

What you choose to cast to get out is your call.


----------



## ph0rk (Apr 27, 2004)

Shadowdweller said:
			
		

> @James McMurray:
> @phork:
> That's funny.  Because what I saw was a list of strategic misinterpretations or highly impractical and inefficient means by which an arcane caster might sort of accomplish the same thing.




Your examples were cherry-picked. You are implying that every single Psion will have those abilities, which just isn't so.  It is about as impractical for a wizard to do all of those things as it is for a Psion. (And I saw detect hostile intent as an anti-sneak attack power; I didn't get the impression that it prevented the Psion from being caught flat footed from enemies farther away than 30')  I'd bet they wanted that particular power to mimic Uncanny Dodge; they may fix with an errata, but even as is the power wouldn't be worth it to me to take.  (And you can't really keep it up all day long easily until agter 6th level or so; it takes 28 casts at 3rd level for a 14 hour day, 14 at 6th, 7 casts at 12.  Thats still going to be 36 PP at level 12)


The only thing that in my mind isn't easily replicatable is Fiery Discorporation, but all that does is allow the psion to leave while the party dies, assuming a TPK and a fire close by.  On the other hand if the Psion is the BBEG, thats just the sort of ability a BBEG -should- have.  It's big bad evil guy, not standard bad evil guy 

We can pick out powers and spells that don't seem balanced all day long, but as I said earlier, if we've gotted down to discussing balance in terms of powers or spells chosen we'll be here forever.   




			
				Shadowdweller said:
			
		

> That's funny. Because what I saw was a list of strategic misinterpretations or highly impractical and inefficient means by which an arcane caster might sort of accomplish the same thing.




But they can. Wizards must plan ahead; Psions don't have to.  If the wizard didn't plan ahead, too bad for them.


----------



## Arbiter of Wyrms (Apr 27, 2004)

Sorry.  Can somebody please catch me up on this.  Do all psions now manifest based on their INT scores, or is it still tied to their chosen discipline.  Also, what's the deal with psicrystals.  Do they still get them as a class feature at first, and improve comparable to a familiar.  Has Mr. Cordell done away with the party scout entirely? what's up?  Thank you.


----------



## James McMurray (Apr 27, 2004)

> I was under the impression that there wasn't any sort of core blindsight spell. Where's it from, anyway? I may have seen something like this way back when, but I'm all but positive it was of a considerably higher level (seeing as how Darkvision is a second level arcane spell).



It isn't core, but its as Core as the XPH. Its in Savage Species in a 3.0 version. The 3.5 version is in the Player's Guide to Faerun. The balance between it and Darkvision is a factor of range (30' for blindsight) and duration (1 minute per level for blindsight). The savage species version is 3rd level, but the 3.5 PGtF version is 2nd level.



> Anyone can cast while grappled (or pinned), the concentration DC is 20. Granted the spell must not have a somatic component, but this can be got around with still spell, and is little different than discussing a wizard in chains. (And if its a comperable level monk, the wizard might as well be in chains )



The psion can manifest any power he wants to while grappled or pinned. The spellcaster must have still spell, or restrict himself to verbal only spells. If he is pinned, the verbal spells go away as well. Additionally, unless he has Eschew, he will have to already have grabbed his material component before he was grappled.



> The only thing that in my mind isn't easily replicatable is Fiery Discorporation, but all that does is allow the psion to leave while the party dies, assuming a TPK and a fire close by. On the other hand if the Psion is the BBEG, thats just the sort of ability a BBEG -should- have. It's big bad evil guy, not standard bad evil guy



It also lets the psion live while the rest of the party dies. The enemy spellcaster that "killed" him then makes his spellcraft check and identifies the power, so he can wait next to the fire with his 50 buddies the next day. I don't mind Fiery Discorporation at all. I think its flavorful and balanced. Your best bet is to get the party tank to carry a torch, or the party monk. That way when you discorporate he can carry you away.

Arbiter: All psions use Int. Wilders use Cha. Psychic Warriors use Wisdom. Psicrystals are now a feat rather than a class ability, but you do get a bonus feat at 1st level, so can easily grab a crystal if its important tothe character.


----------



## Thanee (Apr 27, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> Well, that is where we are just going to disagree.




Fair enough.

Allow me one more commont on this, tho. 



> The sorcerer scaling is vastly better than the psions and the difference makes sorcerers as different from psions as they are from wizards. (again, augmentation is NOT a version of scaling, a psion always get the same result from a third level power - 5d.  Even an epic psion will only get 5d from a third level power.)




What I am saying is, while the psion has to augment to keep up with the automatic scaling, which is an obvious disadvantage, I believe that spells and powers are roughly balanced all in all, if the following is included:

- automatic scaling of spells
- spell caps
- unlimited augmentation (up to manifester level)
- flexibility of augmentation and multiple options of powers (i.e. the energy substitution stuff, or powers that are almost modular in nature, i.e. dominate)

Yes, spell scaling _is_ better, it's the price to pay for the added flexibility in this context, so to say.

From this foundation, psions can roughly do the same as wizards/sorcerers with their powers - maybe _slightly_ less - if they restrict themselves to a moderate augmentation of lower level powers and don't scale everything to the max. They do have the option to do so, but don't have to.

That's where my argument starts... see above for the rest. 

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Thanee (Apr 27, 2004)

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> I'm not seeing the argument that psions have more powers than sorcerers have spells.




Somewhere up there I have posted a direct comparison... it's in post #110.

And you surely have noticed, that psions know up to 3-4 times as many real high level powers than sorcerers. And at most levels they know at least twice as many, often three or even four times (in the very important mid-range levels).

I don't know how the 0th level spells can compete with that...



> I also don't care for arguments like "a psion will never be sneak attacked because of power XXX" with an assumption that every psions will have that power.




Yep. Single examples don't mean much, as I have stated, too.

Altho the general point, which this example was part of (I think Shadowdweller posted it), is quite valid, that psions are quite resilient versus "anti-spellcaster-tactics".

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Apr 27, 2004)

Zhure said:
			
		

> I've taken a look at the psions and they seem more powerful than wizards at first blush.




Talking about the sorcerer mainly, as they are easier to compare (spontaneous versus preparation is harder to judge).



> Only 1 metapsionic feat per manifestation until epic levels.




Considering, that psions don't really need metapsionics to achieve the same (or similar) results, that's really tough. 

Please keep in mind, that psions have the effects of all the following metamagic feats built in their powers for free!

Eschew Materials (ok, general )
Silent Spell
Still Spell
Heighten Spell
4x Energy Substitution (at least in the energy range of powers)

Empower and Maximize - two of the probably most powerful metamagic feats are also not that much more effective, than a standard augmented power of the same level (including the metamagic modifier, of course). Yes, damage will be lower a bit, but save DC will be higher instead, which is not too bad.



> Compare to a Wizard launching a Maximized Empowered Fireball (8th level equivalent - 73 points, 17th level caster).




Ok.



> The Kineticist (a specialist) spends 15 pp on Energy Ball to get either 15d6 (52 points of damage) at 15th level, or at 17th level spends 17 pp to get a 17d6 Energy Ball (59 points of damage). Using metapsionics the psion Maximizes for 11d6 for 15 pp (losing his psionic focus and yielding  66 points of damage) or empowers 13d6 for 15 pp (losing his psionic focus and yielding 68 points of damage.) The psion is a wee bit behind in damage, but a lot ahead in flexibility since he effectively gets Energy Substitution for free and doesn't have to prepare.




So, your examples says, that the psion is ahead here, right?
And that does not figure in the much higher save DC of the augmented power compared to a 3rd level spell, or does it?



> We can further compare examples of Extended or Maximized powers vs spells but the wizard has relatively the same benefits.




You are speaking of the wizard who has spent quite a few feats on metamagic, which the psion has not (see above). The same wizard, that has to decide at the morning, where to apply that metamagic, which the psion does not have to. Right?



> The Psion has to spend an extra MEA and an extra feat (Psionic Meditation) or a full round, double-provoking an AoO much of the time. The Wizard has to prepare in advance.




Yeah, the AoO is a notable disadvantage there, but since they don't need metapsionics, it isn't that important here (more when using Power Penetration, for example).



> - The Wizard gets a familiar for free. The Psion does not.




Slight nit-pick: Wizard gets Scribe Scroll for free. 



> Personally I think the balance points are pretty close.




Hard to say with the wizard, really. The wizards main advantage of preparation is hard to judge against the ultimate flexibility of the psion. That's why I base my arguments on the sorcerer (and as stated elsewhere, I assume the wizard and sorcerer being roughly equal, maybe a slight advantage for the wizard - this is also based on my experience in play so far).



> The only real way to compare the two camps is for the "Psions are overpowered camp" is to build a psion and rate it against a Sorcerer or Wizard built by the other side and do a side-by-side comparison.




I actually think this is not very useful, unless it is done in a plethora of very different examples.

I believe that my technique of comparison - comparing the class mechanics, not single examples - is more accurate, really.



> Picking one path blocks another, ...




Yeah, though Expanded Knowledge does lessen this quite a bit.



> So the psion who can use Metamorphic Transfer probably is an egoist and he'll be weaker than a Transmuter for a few levels because he gets his cool polymorph ability a little later. Afterwards he'll be a little more powerful.




A little? We are talking about one with Metamorphic Transfer here, or not?

Can you imagine how many powerful abilities this feat alone allows to use (the Flesh to Stone thing (3/day at the cost of a single 4th level power even) is just one example)? The possibilities are almost endless considering how many monsters are out there!



> While one feat gives the metamorph a lot of supernatural options, the summoner wizard gains a lot of supernatural options via his summoned animals and at no feat cost with a lot lower risk to himself.




I don't think this comes even close... summoned monsters have some nice abilities, but they are hardly as overwhelming as what that single feat (well two, if you add in Expanded Knowledge for the power) allows.



> It's all about trade-offs.




Yeah, but you have to trade equally powerful abilities to each other.

Bye
Thanee


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## Spatula (Apr 27, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Please keep in mind, that psions have the effects of all the following metamagic feats built in their powers for free!
> 
> Eschew Materials (ok, general )
> Silent Spell
> ...



Not all powers that allow saves can be "heightened" through augmentation.


----------



## Thanee (Apr 27, 2004)

Spatula said:
			
		

> What are you talking about?  Brain Lock & Ecto Coccoon are the psionic versions of Hold Person.  Both powers stop the target from acting, they're not specifically anti-psion powers.  Brain Lock stops mental actions, which stops not only psions but spell-like abilities as well.  Even if the target has none of these, it still can't do anything else.  Ecto Coccoon doesn't stop mental actions but it stops movement, blocks line of effect, and is immune to dispelling.  Why is the use of these powers so "extremely limited"?




Misunderstanding, I was talking about the anti-psion feats.

Those powers stop psions and they stop anyone else, too. Hardly something, that takes away anything from psions.

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Apr 27, 2004)

ph0rk said:
			
		

> Technically a wizard could cast that much earlier with a scroll. (as could a scorceror).




No comment...



> Granted, thats a spell a wizard can't actually cast, but they can certainly make use of it otherwise.
> 
> I -believe- this is the only way a Psion can use that ability, and it does cost 2 feats plue 9 power points per use.  It isn't as if they can become a Djinn or anything.




Isn't that 7 PP?

Anyways... If you have some plenty time at your hand, start browsing through the various monster books out there...

I'll restate only one of my quick examples... with the medusa form the psion can use the "Flesh to Stone" 3 times for a total of 7 PP! A single use of the power normally costs 11 PP. Yes, it does cost a feat (or two even), but I'd say, that ability ALONE is worth it. And then you add like HUNDREDS other abilities into the mix, for the same two feats and 7 PP (one at a time, no additional cost involved). The DC of the ability even scales with the psions level. This feat is so sick, it could even rival the 3.0 Psychofeedback in power (the most hilarious spell/power I have seen to this day)!



> The other bit is, how is a Psion going to assume the form of a creature he or she has never seen or read about?  If they don't exist in a certain world, it'd be even harder!




Yeah, that's surely a hindrance. Some DMs will enforce this, some won't. There are knowledge skills to circumvent it, tho (all class skill for the psion, too, IIRC).



> I have heard that, and it ain't published yet, now is it?




It's so to say a first glimpse at the errata, no it's not yet fully offical, but it's clear, that it will be, so it can be considered as granted.



> My point is that you -must- use expanded knowledge to gain some of the powers that mimic relatively common spells.  Fly, Dominate, Energy Ball, Metamorphasis - all these are list powers and require feats to attain.  On top of that you can't even learn them with a feat until you can manifest powers one level higher.




Absolutely. 100% agree. That's the psions biggest disadvantage I have identified so far. It doesn't match their advantages, tho.



> Have you made a mid or high level psion and really thought about what abilities you'd actually like to have, and what you had to do to get them?




No. Just looked at the possibilities.



> Is that what you meant to say?




*LOL* No, that was pretty much utter crap. Sorry for the confusion! 

What I actually meant is...

_I said the sorcerer is well-balanced with the wizard, yes.
I have never said, that the wizard is with the psion. In fact, I think he is not (like the sorcerer)._



> This discussion has obviously descended to minutae; we can debate specific powers vs specific spells for days and days.




Erm. I don't think that what I say most of the time, is "specific". Actually I try to be most general. Sure there are some specific examples added in, but they are just that... examples. Sometimes a feat or power has to be called for to show up a huge issue (like Metamorphic Transfer).



> Apparently a small few people beleive that Psions are unstoppable; so be it.




Never said that.



> I'm not here to change your mind.  I don't believe they are.  Yes they do things differenly than Arcanists, because they aren't arcanists.  In my opinion, it would have been pretty stupid if they published a book that contained nothing but a glorified spell-point system and arcane spells.




100% agree.



> To some, thats what playing a caster is all about.




They can do it. No problem. Only said, that a psion won't need many item creation feats to do useful stuff (just one). Personal preferances are of course not discussable. Everyone has likes and dislikes.

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Apr 27, 2004)

*~+~ Summary ~+~*

_For the record, here's what I am basically saying in a nutshell..._

*Summary of comparison between psion and sorcerer:*​
* * * * *​
_Assumption:_ Spells and powers are roughly equal.

Note: This *includes* scaling/non-scaling, caps/no caps, -/augmentation (i.e. "lesser" and "greater" all-in-one), -/built-in flexibility (modular powers).

* * * * *​
_Major Fact:_ There are more spells than powers to choose from. Also some especially powerful psionic powers are only accessible via a feat (Expanded Knowledge to access other discipline's power lists), which further limits the psions selection.

_Fact:_ Powers often only work on the psion where spells can also be cast on teammates.

_Fact:_ Sorcerers can cast more spells per day than psions can manifest powers, given that psions augment their powers to some degree. The additional spells are of a relatively low level, tho (which makes them far from useless, however, especially since they scale up to some point). If you add up spell slots to compare with a higher level power (say, something like two 2nd level spells roughly equaling one 4th level power), both come out much more similar, since psions have more high level manifestations at the expense of lower level ones usually.

* * * * *​
_Major Fact:_ Psions get access to higher level powers one level earlier compared to sorcerers.

_Major Fact:_ Psions get much more high level (relative to character level) powers known than sorcerers. Often 3-4 times as many!

_Major Fact:_ Psions get the effect of several metamagic (one general) feats (Eschew Material, Silent Spell, Still Spell, Heighten Spell, Energy Substitution) for free (no feat cost, no augmentation cost (except Heighten), no increased manifestation time, no expenditure of psionic focus, nothing). Spellcasters need several feats to keep up with this ability and still won't be able to achieve the same results. Also to some extent, augmented powers can keep up with empowered / maximized spells (slightly lower effect, slightly higher save DC).

_Major Fact:_ Psions can spontaneously use Quicken Power, sorcerers cannot use Quicken Spell that way (and can only use it at all by spending another feat on Arcane Preparation).

_Fact:_ Psions have more flexibility in applying their power points compared to the sorcerer's spell slots. Psions can manifest much more high level powers compared to the sorcerer's high level spell slots. While psions can almost resemble the sorcerers spellcasting (altho the sorcerer will have some more low level spells then (see above)), when they don't augment to the max, they also have the option to burn their PP quicker for a vastly more devastating effect (high amount of high level manifestations). Sorcerers do not have the latter option. Especially at higher levels, the ability to manifest huge amounts of high level powers is a major asset. They also can technically manifest extreme amounts of unaugmented low level powers, but that doesn't seem like a very effective use of their flexibility (thanks to the non-automatic scaling, otherwise it would quickly reach insane levels, so this limit is very important to the psion's flexibility).

_Fact:_ Psions get better skills and more bonus feats than sorcerers (even if you exclude the first two to keep up with familiar and to get Psionic Meditation to keep up with metamagic application). They also can wear armor with no chance to ruin their manifestations.

_Fact:_ Metamorphic Transfer is broken like no tomorrow! 

_Fact:_ Most of the above applies to all (or at least most) character levels.

* * * * *​
_Conclusion:_ Psions are vastly superior to sorcerers!

* * * * *​
One thing not covered is the comparison between Spell Focus / Spell Penetration and the psionic equivalents. Psionic Endowment / Power Penetration can only be used by expending the psionic focus (regain as move action normally). This means that psions can't use them simultaneously (except once when they spend another two feats on Psicrystal / Psicrystal Containment). They both have a higher effect, tho (roughly twice as good). With Psionatrix, psions can effectively "buy" a Spell Focus equivalent (no Greater version, tho). That seems - all in all - roughly equal to me, especially considering, that the psionic focus is probably mostly used for only Power Penetration or Quicken Power, anyways.

Bye
Thanee


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## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 27, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> _Fact...
> Fact...
> Fact...
> Fact...
> ...




Well, I guess we can all shut up then. Our *opinions* are clearly unwelcome in light of all of these indisputable *facts*.


----------



## ph0rk (Apr 27, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> That seems - all in all - roughly equal to me, especially considering, that the psionic focus is probably mostly used for only Power Penetration or Quicken Power, anyways.




Check out all the feats that enhance movement and require psionic focus.  (up the walls, speed of thought)

Also; if you really want a low level power that seems unbalanced, check out energy missile.  kin/2 (though you can bet my telepath has it at 5)   It is one of the few powers that scales one damage die per extra pp -and- one point of DC per pp.

Few powers augment that well, though; and the hard cap of 5 targets isn't as handy at higher levels.

Another interesting combo is the astral construct (shaper 1) and the improved astral construct feat (wrong name).  Druids w/ augment summoning work better though, IMHO.


----------



## Thanee (Apr 28, 2004)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> Well, I guess we can all shut up then. Our *opinions* are clearly unwelcome in light of all of these indisputable *facts*.




Your opinions are very welcome, but you probably cannot deny, that these are facts, which can be proven.

If anything important is amiss (or actually wrong), please point it out.

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Apr 28, 2004)

ph0rk said:
			
		

> Check out all the feats that enhance movement and require psionic focus.  (up the walls, speed of thought)




Yeah, I think those are more useful for psychic warriors, tho, than psions.

Not that psions can't utilize them, of course... 

Bye
Thanee


----------



## ph0rk (Apr 28, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> _Fact:_ ....





I take issue with all your facts, they are still open to interpretation and I am not prepared to grant them as is.

also:  One really big thing you've missed with quicken power (and Schism, earlier) is anything that costs PP or lowers effective ML -directly- impacts scalability through augmentation.  You can only spend so many pp per round, and if using a feat costs 8pp and you're 16th level, your power is otherwise only scalable as if you were 8th level.  ouch.


so a quickened energy ball at 16th level couldn't possibly do 16d6, etc.


----------



## Thanee (Apr 28, 2004)

ph0rk said:
			
		

> Also; if you really want a low level power that seems unbalanced, check out energy missile.  kin/2 (though you can bet my telepath has it at 5)   It is one of the few powers that scales one damage die per extra pp -and- one point of DC per pp.




Interesting. Might be a typo, tho. It's pretty damn good, for sure (even with normal DC scaling, since 5 targets are often enough - kinda like a 2nd level firebrand ).

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Thanee (Apr 28, 2004)

ph0rk said:
			
		

> I take issue with all your facts, they are still open to interpretation and I am not prepared to grant them as is.




Tell me which...



> Fact: Psions can almost resemble the sorcerers spellcasting (altho the sorcerer will have some more low level spells then), when they don't augment to the max, but they also have the option to burn their PP quicker for a vastly more devastating effect (high amount of high level manifestations). Sorcerers do not have the latter option. Especially at higher levels, the ability to manifest huge amounts of high level powers is a major asset.




This one is the only one, where I might actually agree (the rest is written black and white in the book pretty much or proven already on this thread). And I think I have stated this careful enough with "almost" and the stuff in parantheses. Also note, that I didn't rate this as major (the major tag is - of course - my personal opinion).



> also:  One really big thing you've missed with quicken power (and Schism, earlier) is anything that costs PP or lowers effective ML -directly- impacts scalability through augmentation.




I havn't missed that. Even the designers havn't missed that. That's why the metapsionics only cost one effective power level less than equivalent spell level for metamagic feats.

Quickened spells/powers are (almost) always weaker than regular ones, because of the cost to quicken them (spells 4 levels lower than your max have lower caps, too).

Bye
Thanee


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## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 28, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Your opinions are very welcome, but you probably cannot deny, that these are facts, which can be proven.
> 
> If anything important is amiss (or actually wrong), please point it out.
> 
> ...




How long have you been playing with the XPH? And you know for a fact, without a shadow of a doubt, to the point that you would stake your life and the lives of your loved ones on these things that they are 100%, undeniably true?



> Major Fact: There are more spells than powers to choose from. Also some important powers are only accessible via a feat.




Important powers? Important to who? You? Me? I guess it doesn't matter since it is a fact.



> Fact: Metamorphic Transfer is broken like no tomorrow!




This is a fact? So I take it you've playtested it extensivly? I mean, it looks a little powerful to me, but i'm not sure it's broken. But I obviously I'm wrong and MT makes the game unplayable.



> Psions get the effect of several metamagic (one general) feats (Eschew Material, Silent Spell, Still Spell, Heighten Spell, Energy Substitution) for free...




This takes my post in a different direction, but I wanted to comment on it anyway. This line of thinking doesn't really work well. If it did, we'd all be screaming about the fighter being the most powerful class because it gets doezens of feats at first level... Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword, Martial Weapon Proficiency: Longsword, Martial Weapon Proficiency: Greatsword, etc.


----------



## ph0rk (Apr 28, 2004)

I'm going make the claim that Psions are balanced with Specialist Wizards.  

I make no such claim about Psions and Sorcerors.  You can either debate with me whether Psions are balanced with Wizards, or accept my statement and explore whether Sorcerors are balanced w/ Wizards (general or specialist).  

Obviously, both cannot be true.  Either Psions are balanced with Wizards and Sorcerors are not, or Sorcerors are and Psions are not.

I will no longer discuss any balance issues between Psions and Sorcerors.  In my opinion Sorcerors are underpowered.


----------



## Thanee (Apr 28, 2004)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> How long have you been playing with the XPH? And you know for a fact, without a shadow of a doubt, to the point that you would stake your life and the lives of your loved ones on these things that they are 100%, undeniably true?




As I said, prove me wrong. I'll gladly edit anything, that is actually false.



> Important powers? Important to who? You? Me? I guess it doesn't matter since it is a fact.




If you don't rate the powers on the discipline lists as important ones, then I don't know... maybe we can find a more suitable term, tho... "especially powerful" maybe?



> This is a fact? So I take it you've playtested it extensivly? I mean, it looks a little powerful to me, but i'm not sure it's broken. But I obviously I'm wrong and MT makes the game unplayable.




Have you noticed the smiley?

I think it's very broken, tho. Look up my examples somewhere above.

A feat that allows (for 7 PP and a power manifestation) to use an ability equivalent to three 11 PP manifestations (as just one of hundreds of other possibilities)?



> This takes my post in a different direction, but I wanted to comment on it anyway. This line of thinking doesn't really work well. If it did, we'd all be screaming about the fighter being the most powerful class because it gets doezens of feats at first level... Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword, Martial Weapon Proficiency: Longsword, Martial Weapon Proficiency: Greatsword, etc.




I never said, that this fact alone made psions overpowered there, I just stated, that it is a fact, that they do get these benefits. I leave the judgement (my own conclusion is included in the summary) to everyone as to how unbalancing this ability is.

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Apr 28, 2004)

ph0rk said:
			
		

> I'm going make the claim that Psions are balanced with Specialist Wizards.




That's unfortunately much harder to find out. 



> I make no such claim about Psions and Sorcerors.  You can either debate with me whether Psions are balanced with Wizards, or accept my statement and explore whether Sorcerors are balanced w/ Wizards (general or specialist).




So I take it, that you agree with my assessment (not including a judgement about the psion compared with any other class)?



> Obviously, both cannot be true.  Either Psions are balanced with Wizards and Sorcerors are not, or Sorcerors are and Psions are not.




Yeah. That's my line of thinking as well. In my experience sorcerers are roughly equal to wizards (slightly less powerful, but not much). But that's really hard to prove, since they are so drastically different in their primary abilities.



> I will no longer discuss any balance issues between Psions and Sorcerors.  In my opinion Sorcerors are underpowered.




Please note, that I explicitly didn't make a point (at least I hope so ) about whether the problem lies with the psion or with the sorcerer there!

If I was to make a guess, I'd say it lies ~25% on the sorcerer's side and ~75% on the psions side, tho.

Bye
Thanee


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## ph0rk (Apr 28, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> So I take it, that you agree with my assessment (not including a judgement about the psion compared with any other class)?




No, I will not comment on your assessment.  I stand by my earlier claim: Psions are balanced with Specialist Wizards. (IMHO)  I will probably also grant that Psions are balanced with generalist wizards.

Unless you can satisfactorily sway me from this claim, any statements about a weakness in Sorcerors re Psions will elicit a "they are underpowered and are not a proper comparison" from me.

I also hold the opinion that Sorcerors are weak compared to Wizards.  Extrapolate as you will, but I will say nothing further.


----------



## Thanee (Apr 28, 2004)

*shrugs*

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Scion (Apr 28, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> _For the record, here's what I am basically saying in a nutshell..._




i find some of your facts rather silly, but I will try to wander around in them for a bit. Stating at first though that I have seen no power issues between the psion and the arcane types just yet. If anything the psion is currently much weaker than the wizard in the party, and exceedingly weak compared to the cleric.



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> _Assumption:_ Spells and powers are roughly equal.




As on a one by one basis? I am assuming you mean 3.5 spells. Since many 3.5 spells have been nerfed into uselessness then I will take this as a Bad Thing (tm).

Psions are, by their very nature, specialists. As such their main powers should be the equal or better than the arcane counterpart, while the general ones should be equal or slightly worse (in general). Mainly it seems like the psonic powers are pretty close (at the very base levels, when they are first recieved) but are much worse in certain areas most of the time, while not really excelling in other areas. so for this point I think that the arcanes are actually way ahead. Especially since arcane types have a huge selection to choose from, and therefore automatically have the chance of getting spells that are just plain better than the psionic counterparts.



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> Note: This *includes* scaling/non-scaling, caps/no caps, -/augmentation (i.e. "lesser" and "greater" all-in-one), -/built-in flexibility (modular powers).




I dont agree with this in the way that you are presenting it however. Generally an arcane spell of lower levels will be much more durable in a few ways than the psionic spell manifested unaugmented. After all, once you start augementing then it isnt a spell of the same level anymore and the comparison changes.

This does give the psion an advantage over the sorc in some ways, and a huge detriment in others. Given the vastness of the number of spells that a sorc can cast in comparison, along with the above, the versitility vs power issue is hard, but I would still point well in favor of the sorc for this one.



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> _Major Fact:_ There are more spells than powers to choose from. Also some especially powerful psionic powers are only accessible via a feat (Expanded Knowledge to access other discipline's power lists).




Lots more spells to choose from. Having to pay a feat to gain an extra power isnt an issue here, it does not help the fact that there are many more spells than powers.

In other words this is two facts, one of which muddies the other. The second line has no real bearing at all however, as the sorc/wiz have effectively the exact same feat at their disposal. So just kill the second misleading line, and keep the first. Which points towards the arcane counterpart winning by a large margin.



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> _Fact:_ Powers often only work on the psion where spells can also be cast on teammates.




An incredible drawback believe me ;/ The psion can boost himself, but most of the time he doesnt want to use those boosts as they will make him have to get up close and personal. Or their durations are just too short to matter, but this is a problem for both caster types.



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> _Major Fact:_ Psions get much more high level (relative to character level) powers known than sorcerers. Often 3-4 times as many!




on an immediate, short term basis? yes. But the sorc gets to use his spells a total of many more times per day. That is one of the tradeoff points. Kindof like with the bard, they get a good amount of spells, but cant cast all of them.

This is especially true with bonus spells, psions get a whole lot less bonus spells for a high stat. The sorc gets an incredible amount.

So psion = more powers known sometimes, able to cast the higher level ones a few more times but then have nothing left over.

sorc = a few less spells known sometimes, able to cast the higher level ones a few less times, but having tons and tons of spells of all of the other levels waiting to help.

When the sorc can cast double the amount of 'pp' per day as the psion they should have to give up something for that huge amount of extra power yes?

For just 5th - 9th, with no bonus spells yet, the sorc has the equivalent of 390 pp, and all of those scale for free. The psion only has 343.

Assuming a prime stat of 30 (not unreasonable at all), the psion gets a bonus of 100 pp. The sorc gets the equivalent of 121 bonus pp. For each extra +2 the psion gets an extra 10 pp, for each extra 2 the sorc gets a minimum of much, much more.

The extra '3 - 4x' as many spells known simply comes from the delayed progression of the sorc. Now, many people, including myself, dont understand why the sorc even has this delayed progression. So that is a major problem for them, but just because that is a problem that should be fixed does not mean that the psion should be held to the same bad standard. Especially with what I have just outlined above. Using your same logic the wizard has many, many too many spells (many is a fun word  ) as they have that 4x base as many as well! Up to an unbounded multiplier more, but that doesnt really matter, just the base parts. As both the sorc and psion could gain extras of different slots.



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> _Major Fact:_ Psions get the effect of several metamagic (one general) feats (Eschew Material, Silent Spell, Still Spell, Heighten Spell, Energy Substitution) for free (no feat cost, no augmentation cost (except Heighten), no increased manifestation time, no expenditure of psionic focus, nothing). Spellcasters need several feats to keep up with this ability and still won't be able to achieve the same results. Also to some extent, augmented powers can keep up with empowered / maximized spells (slightly lower effect, slightly higher save DC).




The psion does still have displays however, so they merely trade in one kind for another kind. Plus, a good amount of powers require exp instead of the very easy to get components or focuses. I would much rather pay some gold rather than exp, any day of the week. That is an incredibly huge penalty. So large that I have thus far not seen anyone take any of the powers that take exp to manifest. effectively that cuts out whole swaths of powers, making the amount of powers to choose from go down even farther.

If we are going to count feats as such though then the sorc has a 'ton' more feats than the psion. After all, sorcs know all simple weapons.

Plus, since only spells with somatic components are effected by spell failure anyway, you could make a sorc who doesnt have to worry about armor at all. Effectively having the exact same 'bonus' as the psion, guess the sorc actually has a few of these virtual feats after all.

Along with psionic focus expenditure being the most horrible thing since moldy bread. Intersting idea, bad implementation.

And only specific powers have augementation, and the ones that do only have a very minor amount of augmentation. It is the costly, and limited, form of scaling. If your sorc picks up feat X he gets to use it wherever he wants, but the psion doesnt get anywhere near that latitude with his choices, it is merely yet another cost to be paid to try to keep up with the sorc.



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> _Major Fact:_ Psions can spontaneously use Quicken Power, sorcerers cannot use Quicken Spell that way (and can only use it at all by spending another feat on Arcane Preparation).




True enough, but try to get wotc to give a good reason why they cant and mostly all you get is sputtering. Once again, taking design flaws of the sorc and trying to make the psion live up to them as well (or down to them) is just a bad move. Better is to try to get things straightened out properly for the sorc, as he should be able to do it as well.



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> _Fact:_ Psions have more flexibility in applying their power points compared to the sorcerer's spell slots.




More flexibility? Depends on how you look at it I suppose. A 5th level spell might be just as effective in many cases as that psions 5the level power, after he augements it properly. Sorc 0 through whatever spells actually stay much more useful at higher levels as well. So, the psion must keep on augmenting and getting new powers just to keep up with the sorc and his selection of current spells and those that have come before. This isnt always universally true of course, but it is true enough to counter the 'fact'.



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> _Fact:_ Psions can almost resemble the sorcerers spellcasting (altho the sorcerer will have some more low level spells then), when they don't augment to the max, but they also have the option to burn their PP quicker for a vastly more devastating effect (high amount of high level manifestations). Sorcerers do not have the latter option. Especially at higher levels, the ability to manifest huge amounts of high level powers is a major asset.




As I have shown above this isnt exactly true, the sorc, when his spells are converted to pp, is way ahead. So much so that it isnt even funny  On another board someone compared the total amount of damage dice each was able to do in a given day at high level with a good stat. The psion was at around 180 and the sorc was pushing 400. So if all you care about is sheer damage potential the sorc wins out against two psions of the same level!



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> _Fact:_ Psions get better skills and more bonus feats than sorcerers (even if you exclude the first two to keep up with familiar and to get Psionic Meditation to keep up with metamagic application). They also can wear armor with no chance to ruin their manifestations.




better skills? one can only hope! the sorc gets it pretty royally here, although he still beats out the fighter.

The sorc does really need to get a couple of feats here and there, but again, that is a problem with the sorc. The psion should get the feats, so perhaps you should be saying that the sorc needs the boost, not that the psion needs to be pulled down?



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> _Fact:_ Metamorphic Transfer is broken like no tomorrow!




Havent seen it in action, it looks nice, but broken? We shall see as time goes on, for now.. who knows? It might be too campaign dependent to mean anything.



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> _Fact:_ Most of the above applies to all (or at least most) character levels.




My responses about things to change makes this more true 



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> _Conclusion:_ Psions are vastly superior to sorcerers!




This however is a huge leap. The psion is better at some things sometimes, the sorc is generally better overall at more things. (and by things I of course mean damage  ). The psion gets to use metamagic faster, but the sorc still does it 'much' better. The psion gets to augment, but the sorc gets a much wider selection so can pick up spells that are more useful to begin with, and stay as such throghout the characters carear.

Having to expend focus, and the incredible difficulty in getting it back, is a huge limiting factor for the psion. Plus having to spend so many points to keep their powers up to par in useage.

Overall I think the new psion is a pretty decent improvement, there are only a few things I would change to make them more useful.

The sorc though has always needed a lot of help, not so much in the power department so much as in the versitility and interesting department. Mostly they are just bland, and require a lot of careful planning. Just a few simple changes (bonus feats, a couple of intersting perks, quicken working properly, couple of extra skills) and they would be good to go.

This whole thread seems to boil down to, 'sorcs really suck, so lets make every other caster suck too!'. Arcane magic in general took a lot of major, and most unwarrented, hits in 3.5 and psionics followed suit. They have already taken enough hits for the team, time for them to get some boosts anyway.


----------



## Spatula (Apr 28, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Misunderstanding, I was talking about the anti-psion feats.



Ah, your post makes much more sense now!


----------



## Spatula (Apr 28, 2004)

ph0rk said:
			
		

> Check out all the feats that enhance movement and require psionic focus.



What, all three of them?


----------



## ph0rk (Apr 28, 2004)

Spatula said:
			
		

> What, all three of them?




Well yeah, but Speed of Thought in particular is so good I don't ever want to expend focus


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## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 28, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> I think it's very broken, tho.




Thats what I was looking for.  You have the right to your *opinion*, but just because you think something is a certain way, does not make it *fact*.


----------



## Thanee (Apr 28, 2004)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> Thats what I was looking for.  You have the right to your *opinion*, but just because you think something is a certain way, does not make it *fact*.




Dude..............

Look for the smiley!!

(told you that already.)

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Thanee (Apr 28, 2004)

> As on a one by one basis?



 Of course not, that's pointless. The comparison is all psionic versus a similar amount of magic spells (there are more magic spells, but that is covered elsewhere). And the main part of this comparison is the mechanics, which are obviously quite different, especially the scaling (huge disadvantage for psions) versus caps and much, much lower flexibility (huge disadvantage for spellcasters).



> I am assuming you mean 3.5 spells. Since many 3.5 spells have been nerfed into uselessness then I will take this as a Bad Thing (tm).



 So you compare 3.5 psionics with 3.0 arcana?



> Psions are, by their very nature, specialists.



 More than spellcasters, but not so much more than a sorcerer normally. There selection of powers is quite broad, too, even tho not as broad as what the sorcerer can pick from, of course.



> Mainly it seems like the psonic powers are pretty close (at the very base levels, when they are first recieved) but are much worse in certain areas most of the time, while not really excelling in other areas.



 Could you make some examples or somehow elaborate what you mean?



> Especially since arcane types have a huge selection to choose from, and therefore automatically have the chance of getting spells that are just plain better than the psionic counterparts.



 If there is a psionic counterpart, this will be kinda hard to find one that is "just plain better", I suppose. I havn't seen many powers yet, that don't easily live up to their arcane counterparts (if augmented properly, which has a higher cost, of course, but that is the price for the added flexibility, can't look at the disadvantages without the advantages).



> I dont agree with this in the way that you are presenting it however. Generally an arcane spell of lower levels will be much more durable in a few ways than the psionic spell manifested unaugmented.



 Of course, but you can (again) not compare it this way.



> After all, once you start augementing then it isnt a spell of the same level anymore and the comparison changes.



 It still is a power of the same level, it just costs more PP to manifest. I'm very much aware of this fact.

       Also, I labeled this "Assumption" for a good reason, as this is surely not easily proven. 

       It has nothing to do with the items to follow, tho.
       The cost to augment is an inherent part of the way psionic powers work.



> This does give the psion an advantage over the sorc in some ways, and a huge detriment in others.



 That's the point to be proven... how much of an advantage it is versus how much of a disadvantage. Flexibility comes at a price, you can't have more flexibility and equal power, that's not going to work.



> Given the vastness of the number of spells that a sorc can cast in comparison, along with the above, the versitility vs power issue is hard, but I would still point well in favor of the sorc for this one.



 The vastness of spells is covered in the psions main disadvantage already.



> Lots more spells to choose from. Having to pay a feat to gain an extra power isnt an issue here, it does not help the fact that there are many more spells than powers.



 It's not really meant as an advantage...



> In other words this is two facts, one of which muddies the other.



 I think it is very much the same... the point here is, that the psion has much fewer powers to choose from, and the discipline powers of other disciplines (which count to the lower power base) can only be picked by the feat equivalent of "extra spell", which the sorcerer can choose. So, while it certainly makes the feat better in comparison (allows access to other powers plus the normal uses), it makes their power base even worse, so this is meant to enhance the first, not take away from it.



> The second line has no real bearing at all however, as the sorc/wiz have effectively the exact same feat at their disposal. So just kill the second misleading line, and keep the first. Which points towards the arcane counterpart winning by a large margin.



 See above.

       It's certainly not meant that way... I'll see if I can make it clearer, tho.



> An incredible drawback believe me ;/ The psion can boost himself, but most of the time he doesnt want to use those boosts as they will make him have to get up close and personal. Or their durations are just too short to matter, but this is a problem for both caster types.



 Not speaking of the general nature of spellcasters, but of spells that work on others, where powers do not. It is a disadvantage, but surely not an incredible one, once you take away the part sorcerers have, too.

       And again, if I have forgotten anything (never said, this is a finite list), please point it out.



> on an immediate, short term basis? yes.



  No, all the time (cept the very first levels).



> But the sorc gets to use his spells a total of many more times per day.



 Irrelevant to this point. This is only about how many of those they can choose to do, not how often. And you surely don't want to say, that sorcerers can cast their high level spells more often than psions can manifest their high level powers, because that is obviously false.

       Sorcerers can - in total - cast more spells per day than psions can manifest powers, yes.
 But the ones they get in addition are only low level ones then and that certainly balances the aspect, that psions get to manifest more high level ones that have a higher impact.

       I'll get back to this later, as it is meant to be covered in another item, actually.



> That is one of the tradeoff points. Kindof like with the bard, they get a good amount of spells, but cant cast all of them.
> 
> This is especially true with bonus spells, psions get a whole lot less bonus spells for a high stat. The sorc gets an incredible amount.



 A whole lot less? Not really.



> So psion = more powers known sometimes, able to cast the higher level ones a few more times but then have nothing left over.



 Yeah. That "A few more times" can be quite often, tho. IF the psion manifests all powers at maximum level. That's surely a quick way to burn through one's PP/ day. I quite efficient way in having much effect in short time, but quite inefficient in having spread ones power over a longer time frame. They _can_ do the latter, too, the sorcerer cannot do the first. But again, that's another item in the list.



> When the sorc can cast double the amount of 'pp' per day as the psion they should have to give up something for that huge amount of extra power yes?
> 
> For just 5th - 9th, with no bonus spells yet, the sorc has the equivalent of 390 pp, and all of those scale for free. The psion only has 343.
> 
> Assuming a prime stat of 30 (not unreasonable at all), the psion gets a bonus of 100 pp. The sorc gets the equivalent of 121 bonus pp. For each extra +2 the psion gets an extra 10 pp, for each extra 2 the sorc gets a minimum of much, much more.



 Yes, the sorcerer can cast more spells per day, already said so.
       And you can't just translate spell slots into PP / day, there are many other factors to consider (see above) as a whole.

      And what has this to do with spells/powers known, anyways?



> The extra '3 - 4x' as many spells known simply comes from the delayed progression of the sorc.



 That is true, but doesn't make this any less valid. It's a comparison between sorcerer and psion after all.

 BTW, you didn't complain - like above - that I have stated two facts in one here. 1) psions geht higher level powers quicker (1 level earlier) 2) psions have much more of them at pretty much every level.



> Now, many people, including myself, dont understand why the sorc even has this delayed progression. So that is a major problem for them, but just because that is a problem that should be fixed does not mean that the psion should be held to the same bad standard.



 For you too... Note, that I deliberately do not state in this comparison as to why the problem lies with the sorcerer or with the psion, just point out, that the problem exists (in a rather large scale IMHO).

 Yes, I have an opinion about this subject, and yes I do think the problem lies more on the psion side than on the sorcerer side (rough estimate 75% to 25%).



> The psion does still have displays however, ...



 Spells have those, too. Or do you want to say, that a fireball is not visible/audible, for example?



> Plus, a good amount of powers require exp instead of the very easy to get components or focuses.



 Very easy to get... Have you ever noticed how expensive some of that stuff can be? I'd actually more than happily pay 25-50xp for Stoneskin instead of 250gp! Would make the spell much more useful to me. Not that the equivalent power even has a cost, but it has a reduced effect to compensate. But I am aware, that most people have a huge objection towards spending xp. Their loss. 

 Yes xp is a tough cost. I won't play this down, but it's fair enough compared with gp, which you do not have in unlimited amounts either. Both are limited resources, which are easily regained over time.



> That is an incredibly huge penalty.



  That's a matter of perception.



> If we are going to count feats as such though then the sorc has a 'ton' more feats than the psion. After all, sorcs know all simple weapons.





       Let's stay with actually useful feats.

   Or do you actually want to compare the usefulness of WP: Sickle with Energy Substitution for a spellcaster?



> Plus, since only spells with somatic components are effected by spell failure anyway, you could make a sorc who doesnt have to worry about armor at all.



 At a cost, yes.



> Effectively having the exact same 'bonus' as the psion, guess the sorc actually has a few of these virtual feats after all.



 Not at all. The psion has this for exactly all powers he knows at no cost.



> Along with psionic focus expenditure being the most horrible thing since moldy bread. Intersting idea, bad implementation.



 Agreed.

 It only achieves that some stuff simply won't be used at all (no major disadvantage, since psions don't need any of that stuff, like most metapsionics (get most important ones for free or equivalent effects, anyways) or Psionic Endowment (use Psionatrix instead)). I don't really like that mechanic either.



> And only specific powers have augementation, and the ones that do only have a very minor amount of augmentation.



 Now that's just completely false. Most powers that need scaling have uncapped augmentation (only limit is the manifester level) and the effect is very much _not_ minor.



> It is the costly, and limited, form of scaling.



 Which is left out here for a good reason and covered above instead.

 To recap, the issues with scaling and augmentation have advantages and disadvantages for both types of casters which (IMHO) are pretty much balanced to each other (the above assumption).



> If your sorc picks up feat X he gets to use it wherever he wants, but the psion doesnt get anywhere near that latitude with his choices, it is merely yet another cost to be paid to try to keep up with the sorc.



 How many powers do you know, which the abovementioned metamagic feats would be applicable to, but are not automatically included?

       Examples would be good.



> True enough, but try to get wotc to give a good reason why they cant and mostly all you get is sputtering. Once again, taking design flaws of the sorc and trying to make the psion live up to them as well (or down to them) is just a bad move. Better is to try to get things straightened out properly for the sorc, as he should be able to do it as well.



 See above.



> More flexibility? Depends on how you look at it I suppose.



 A psion can use his PP spread in any way he chooses, the sorcerer can use higher level slots to cast lower level spells, that's it.



> ... This isnt always universally true of course, but it is true enough to counter the 'fact'.



 It actually has nothing to do with this fact. It's about flexibility (and only flexibility), not scaling or power or number of spells/powers per day.



> As I have shown above this isnt exactly true, the sorc, when his spells are converted to pp, is way ahead.



 Shown?

 Converting spells to PP doesn't show much, as I have already stated, since it neglects important parts of the whole spell-power-equation (my above a ssumption).

    Anyways...

 That's something where I can partially agree with, actually. Your comparison leaves important facts out, tho, so it's not very accurate, but still, and I have said so already and also listed it in the statement of this fact, sorcerers have more spells per day than psions have powers per day - given a somewhat natural use of them (that is augmenting most of their powers some but not to the max, preserving some of their vast power for later this way, instead of burning through all their PP quickly - which is extremely powerful, but only for a short while).

       I might add this difference (spells per day versus powers per day) as a seperate fact, tho, to make it more clear.



> So much so that it isnt even funny



  See below, if you want to see how funny...



> On another board someone compared the total amount of damage dice each was able to do in a given day at high level with a good stat. The psion was at around 180 and the sorc was pushing 400. So if all you care about is sheer damage potential the sorc wins out against two psions of the same level!



 Now - going into silly mode for a moment - if psions do not use their powers in a reasonably natural way as stated above (that is augmenting most of their powers to a degree, but not to max), but instead simply go for maximum damage dice, they could (just one example off the top of my head) at 20th level (28 Int) do 3280d6+3280 of damage in a single day (trigger items not included, of course)! How does that compare to the "pushing 400" above? 

       So _obviously_ Psions are 8 times as powerful as sorcerers! 

 Wait, another example (using Metamorphic Transfer)... a 20th level psion can turn 216 targets to stone in a day, with the DC of a 10th level spell (using Cha, tho - but at that level you can have a high Cha in addition to a high Int, if you want to). That's the equivalent of 216 heightened 6th level spells! A sorcerer can do this roughly 30 times a day at that level (not heightened, of course, or only partially).

       As I said elsewhere, silly examples don't mean anything... *leaving silly mode*

       And while it is silly and completely unreasonable it still somewhat shows how much flexibility the psion has.



> better skills? one can only hope! the sorc gets it pretty royally here, although he still beats out the fighter.



 Yep. Though, all casters have this (cept the druid). The advantage is only minor, after all, tho.



> The sorc does really need to get a couple of feats here and there, but again, that is a problem with the sorc. The psion should get the feats, so perhaps you should be saying that the sorc needs the boost, not that the psion needs to be pulled down?



 I havn't said either in the comparison.



> Havent seen it in action, it looks nice, but broken? We shall see as time goes on, for now.. who knows? It might be too campaign dependent to mean anything.



 The examples I stated already make it broken, and those are three out of hundreds of possibilities. Anyways, this is - as said above - only meant as a fun comment (even tho it certainly has some truth to it, it's not really important in the comparison how broken a single feat is).



> My responses about things to change makes this more true



 Your responses are not very accurate. Most of the time you state stuff that is covered elsewhere, instead of keeping focused on the actual fact presented.



> This however is a huge leap.



 Not for me. But it's my opinion stated there, not a fact. It's - of course - open to discussion.



> The psion gets to use metamagic faster, but the sorc still does it 'much' better.



  LOL !?

       What metamagic is better for the sorcerer?

       And don't forget to figure in Psionic Meditation here (as a bonus feat, so no actual cost compared to the sorcerer)!



> Having to expend focus, and the incredible difficulty in getting it back, is a huge limiting factor for the psion.



 A move action is an "incredible difficulty" and a "huge limiting factor"?

       Let's see...

       Sorcerer - full-round action
       Psion - standard action + move action

       Notice a pattern?

       Furthermore...

       Psion - gets use of many, very good metamagic feats for free!

       I fail to see the advantage of the sorcerer here! Enlighten me, please!



> Plus having to spend so many points to keep their powers up to par in useage.



 You always state this, at pretty much every opportunity. How about trying some other arguments. This one has been stated often enough by now, don't you think? Especially since you always leave out the advantages that are bound to this.



> Overall I think the new psion is a pretty decent improvement.



 Definitely, a huge improvement over the PsiHB 3.0 version, I'm inclined to say.



> The sorc though has always needed a lot of help, not so much in the power department so much as in the versitility and interesting department.



 That's undeniable. Compared to the psion they highly lack in power as well, tho.



> This whole thread seems to boil down to, 'sorcs really suck, so lets make every other caster suck too!'.



 I don't see where I have said this in my comparison. In fact, I have stated, that in my opinion sorcerers are not that much behind wizards (and other casters), just psions. It's true, that I am of the opinion, that psions are overpowered, altho this comparison does not state this in any way (only in relation to the sorcerer).



> Arcane magic in general took a lot of major, and most unwarrented, hits in 3.5 and psionics followed suit. They have already taken enough hits for the team, time for them to get some boosts anyway.



 Psionics have taken some hits (similar to arcane magic), that's true. However, based on the quite formidable 3.0 Psion (including the ITCK / MS rules here, not the base PsiBH one, which most certainly wasn't formidable at all) they also included a multitude of advantages over that one (many of those are listed in my comparison). Arcane casters have not been granted those (beyond some minor stuff like spell swapping for sorcerers or one additional class skill).

       Bye
       Thanee


----------



## Doppleganger (Apr 28, 2004)

(Up to 48 quotes now, what's the ENWorld record anyway?    )

I can't wait for _Complete Arcane_, more new toys to add to the mix for comparison!


----------



## Thanee (Apr 28, 2004)

Doppleganger said:
			
		

> (Up to 48 quotes now, what's the ENWorld record anyway?   )




Hehe. Sounds like an efficient way to discuss 48 topics at once... 



> I can't wait for _Complete Arcane_, more new toys to add to the mix for comparison!




Yep, Complete Arcane will hopefully bring the arcane casters (especially the sorcerer) on par... altho, that might have the old argument about spellcasters and non-spellcasters reappear then, because right now I see them as pretty much balanced to each other (except for the usual fighters are better at lower levels, spellcasters at higher levels - not as bad as in 3.0, however). 

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Thanee (Apr 28, 2004)

ph0rk said:
			
		

> Well yeah, but Speed of Thought in particular is so good I don't ever want to expend focus



 Maybe that's why they put in the limit? 

 Bye
 Thanee


----------



## Thanee (Apr 28, 2004)

BTW, about the scaling issues... there are psionic powers that scale with level just like spells do (Dispel Psionics (even if you reduce it to a non-broken version (see re-revised Psion in house rules for an example)) or Metamorphosis for example). These powers usually also have caps and are thus basically equal to the corresponding spells. Also many minor (compared to the actual effect) aspects of a power automatically scale (range, duration, etc).

   Bye
   Thanee


----------



## Darklone (Apr 28, 2004)

My, oh my... Without this book, we would be bored to death now


----------



## The Souljourner (Apr 28, 2004)

I think the fact that the argument is nearing 200 posts proves that the psion is balanced, since obviously there are people on both sides who feel very strongly about it.  If it were so obviously unbalanced, this thread would have gone something like this:

Thanee: Psions are overpowered!
Everyone Else: Yeah!

...

Thanee: ... want to debate if uncanny dodge works against bluff?
Everyone Else: ... ok

-The Souljourner


----------



## Kalanyr (Apr 28, 2004)

I'd like to say that the above argument (that a long debates means something is balanced) isn't necessarily true, if the majority of people agree and post once and two people strongly disagree and post 60 times each to each of which gets one reply from a single supporter and you've got 200 posts. 

But now to veer back onto topic, I'm inclined to agree the 3.5e Psion looks a bit to good to me, they get quiet a large advantage over the sorceror (more versatile powers, spontaneous quickens, bonus feats, even more versatility in trading spells)  (which I feel is the nearest comparison).

I think they may be balanced against a divine caster type, which will basically make them shine compared to an arcane caster since divine casters are usually slightly stronger. Maybe they'd work better compared to something like the Shugenja or one of the other spontaneous divine casters. 

 I also think you're re-revised psion changes are going a bit to far (last time I read them which was the first time you posted it).


----------



## Zhure (Apr 28, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Talking about the sorcerer mainly, as they are easier to compare (spontaneous versus preparation is harder to judge).




Yes, the sorcerer is underpowered by my opinion as well. Saying the psion is more powerful than a sorcerer is like saying a psion is balanced.



> Considering, that psions don't really need metapsionics to achieve the same (or similar) results, that's really tough.
> 
> Please keep in mind, that psions have the effects of all the following metamagic feats built in their powers for free!
> 
> ...




Eschew Materials is mostly a flavor feat and has little effect except in grapples or odd situations. It's a sub-par feat. When a Psion uses concentration to get the benefits of Silent and Still, they must make a concentration check and the arcanist gets them every time he applies them. A psion will probably have a maxed out concentration, as will most casters, so that's a minor drawback. It does mean however on a failed check the power is wasted and the points get spent anyway.

The energy substitution is 'free' for kineticists but applies to only one or two non-kineticists powers. It also applies to only a handful of energy powers anyway. It's of little use to other psions so I'd say it's unfair to say *all* psions get free Energy Substitution four times. That's like saying a wizard who learns Melf's, Fireball and Lightning Bolt has learned Energy Substitution three times. It's similar but not the same.

The free augmentation isn't nearly as good as Heighten, which pretty much everyone agrees is a relatively poor metamagic feat. A heightened magic missle to 5th level (5d4+5, no save) will bust through a Globe of Invulnerability. An augmented crystal shard augmented to 9d6 (no save, but a touch to hit roll) will bounce right off a Globe or Minor Globe.



> Empower and Maximize - two of the probably most powerful metamagic feats are also not that much more effective, than a standard augmented power of the same level (including the metamagic modifier, of course). Yes, damage will be lower a bit, but save DC will be higher instead, which is not too bad.




In many but not all cases.



> So, your examples says, that the psion is ahead here, right?
> And that does not figure in the much higher save DC of the augmented power compared to a 3rd level spell, or does it?




Actually, the other way. The sorcerer gets more bang for the same 'spell slot.' The psion has more options but has spent as many feats.



> You are speaking of the wizard who has spent quite a few feats on metamagic, which the psion has not (see above). The same wizard, that has to decide at the morning, where to apply that metamagic, which the psion does not have to. Right?




Right. The Psion has other feats. Psionic Meditation instead of Empower, etc. My comparison was against a wizard because they get comparable numbers of feats to a psion. The sorcerer is clearly weaker because of this lack.



> Yeah, the AoO is a notable disadvantage there, but since they don't need metapsionics, it isn't that important here (more when using Power Penetration, for example).




Yes, Psionic Endowment and Greater Psionic Endowment are critical for punching through spell/power resistance and they require an expended focus. Same for Unconditional Power which Wilders almost *have* to have after about tenth level for when the inevitable wild surge fails. Psions who go the Overchannel + Talented route will need to regain their focus a lot, as will any Psion who does use other metapsionic feats.



> Slight nit-pick: Wizard gets Scribe Scroll for free.




Slight nit-pick: And they still get a free familiar. The psion has to blow a feat on what could be argued is a weaker version of a familiar that cannot be raised from the dead and takes a specific power from the Shaper list to repair (non-Shapers will have to expend yet another feat). The Wizard spends 100 gp. Not a fair trade-off, 100 gp for a feat.



> I actually think this is not very useful, unless it is done in a plethora of very different examples.
> 
> I believe that my technique of comparison - comparing the class mechanics, not single examples - is more accurate, really.




I disagree wholly. Citing theoretical examples ignores the opportunity costs to get there. For example, Metamorphic Transfer, while it seems very powerful at first, ignores what it takes to get there. By building a character 'exploiting' Metamorphic Transfer it becomes apparent that entire schools of power get ignored. Only Egoists gain the ability early enough to qualify as 'abusive' by taking it at fifth level. 

What does the Egoist give up? All the other discipline powers except maybe 1. He has to take the feat with either his 5th level bonus feat, his 6th level class feat, or his 9th or 10th level feat. If he takes it at 5th or 6th, then he doesn't actually get any benefit from the feat until 7th level when he finally acquires Metamorphasis. How often does a character take a feat that has absolutely no practical benefit for at least one and probably two levels? Almost never. 

Meanwhile we build a non-specialist wizard (or at least one who doesn't have conjuration banned). For one of his 7th level powers he takes Summon Monster IV. With the summoned monsters his list of supernatural abilites is massive.

Just from SM4 he gets: Aura of Menace, Magic Circle Against, Aid, 
Detect Evil, Continual Flame, Burrow, Fiery Aura, Melt Weapons, See in Darkness, Detect Good, Detect Magic, Suggestion,  
Commune, Cone of Fire, and a Varguille's Shriek. This doesn't even include all the goodies from getting lower level meat shields. Almost all these abilites are useable once per round for 7 rounds per casting. All without expending a single feat.

Greg


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## The Souljourner (Apr 28, 2004)

The main drawback I see to Psions is their lack of variety in the powers they get.  A wizard can have protective spells, mental domination spells, direct damage spells, movement spells, summon spells, and a variety of utility spells.  Psions get inferior versions of most of these, and equivalent versions of a select few (in their discipline).

So, while they get much more flexibility in what powers they use every day, their whole power list is a lot more limited than most Wizard's.

Try making each type of character at levels 5, 10, 15, and I think you'll see what I mean.  The wizard has a much wider variety of stuff he can do.. especially if you take into consideration the fact that he can find spellbooks, scrolls, etc, and increase the number of spells in his spellbook.

-The Souljourner


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## ph0rk (Apr 28, 2004)

The Souljourner said:
			
		

> The wizard has a much wider variety of stuff he can do.. especially if you take into consideration the fact that he can find spellbooks, scrolls, etc, and increase the number of spells in his spellbook.




Don't forget how relatively easy it is for a wizard to prepare spells from someone else's spellbook (spellcraft dc 15+spell level)

Eventually they don't even need to copy spells to their own book anymore. 

(Though they may need a pack animal to carry their library )


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## sumi (Apr 28, 2004)

Having spent several hours reading this thread I would just like to add the following point from someone who currently plays a 3.0 psion 9th level seer/1st level monk that is about to convert. The new XPH is a vast improvement on 3.0. However, I am still not happy with the conversion. All you seem to be talking about is maximising powers, nothing about character development.
Thanee to me the sorcerer is a much more powerful *party * member than an XPH psion. As has been previously mentioned most of the psions spells are self. 
My current DM plays an 10th level sorcerer in another campaign and is the most powerful party member by miles. He can polymorph the entire party into trolls or what ever. He released a 60hp fireball due to help with a lesser metamagic rod - 180points of damage in 3rounds and only 3 out of his 7 3rd level spells used.
I would like to think that I would be similarly capable. I have calculated I would have 99pp. A few more if I was 10th. To be as effective I would have to use a feat slot and use 14 energy points to achieve similar results. Times that by 3 and 42 points are gone. His wand is usable tomorrow. He has used 3 spells and 40% of my power has gone.I do not know if psions have a similar device but it will only save me 12pp.
Also, Thanee I cannot believe how dismissive you are of the arcane spells that a sorcerer has a choice of, even if it only 3 at 20th. I am so pleased that I now have the choice of Apopsi, etherealness, reality revision and assimilate where I can gain temp hps. The Seer powers costs xp's -1000 plus. Metafaculty and reality revision - fantastic; gates and wishes pale into insignificance beside them. Maybe exps are given away like confeti in your campaigns but exps are not in mine(hence why I am still 10th.) It is far easier to gain money.
At 8th I get to know a fact or spend more xps on matter agitation or bend reality. If I really went for it I could cast Iron body and Shadow body on my self. The 35 8th level spells of course are not that much of an advantage to a sorcerer. The 9 of the psion still make him over the top? 
Oh for the versatility of adapting the character to match the needs of the party and the campaign. The psion has those in abundance????
Less than that, I can have the choice of Oak body (this seems similar)sequester or divert teleport - I'm drooling at the thought.

I apologise if I am sounding a little bit cynical but I do not see that at powerful levels the sorcerer is that much disadvantaged, if at all. As a player character he is a much more useful party member, with his movement abilities, his buffing abilities, his offensive abilities and his interesting esoteric spells that get the party through the next stage of their adventure. if you add to that the phenomenal range of spells he can use on a scroll, wands and magical devices. He becomes untouchable. Not as powerful as the wizard but near. I just picture my Seer as a destructive area effect mage or being buffed beyond recognition with massive AC and saving throws and standing in the middle of the opposition casting spells on the defensive or waiting till they get bored trying to hit him and walk off. Thats what most of the general spells at high level provide for. If there is a criticism of the psion it is the powers are too orientated to the self and does not allow for much character development - hence why I went for seer and now find the only discipline spell I would actually use is sensitivity to psychic impressions. 

Oh the disillusionment.

One final point - the thread starts with psions vs sorcerers vs wizards. I gather Thanee that psions are not more powerful than wizards as you do not mention them much in your statements after the first page. Maybe they are not that too over the top.


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## Thanee (Apr 29, 2004)

Zhure said:
			
		

> Eschew Materials is mostly a flavor feat and has little effect except in grapples or odd situations. It's a sub-par feat.




Granted. Nothing major.



> When a Psion uses concentration to get the benefits of Silent and Still, they must make a concentration check and the arcanist gets them every time he applies them.




Are you speaking of displays here? I don't speak of display. Wizards cannot hide the "displays" of their spells at all (audible, visible). Many spells do not have "displays", tho, which kinda balances this.

I'm speaking of the complete absence of verbal and somatic components!



> The energy substitution is 'free' for kineticists but applies to only one or two non-kineticists powers.




Energy Substitution in general only applies to "energy" type spells. Of course it's best for the kineticist, but even only one such power grants the complete flexibility (which is huge - it's roughly five powers in one this way - or one power + four feats)!



> The free augmentation isn't nearly as good as Heighten, which pretty much everyone agrees is a relatively poor metamagic feat.




Most people I know, that play sorcerers consider this feat highly powerful (for sorcerers only, tho).



> Slight nit-pick: And they still get a free familiar.




Just meant, that the bonus feat is obviously the substitute for the removed psicrystal ability (which is a feat now). It's surely meant that way (judging from where it originated from), but will work either way, of course.



> I disagree wholly. Citing theoretical examples ignores the opportunity costs to get there.




I don't cite examples, except to illustrate a point. That's what I meant. I compare class fundamentals that apply to all scenarios not possible scenarios. A more generic comparison, instead of rather specific, so to say.



> For example, Metamorphic Transfer, while it seems very powerful at first, ignores what it takes to get there. By building a character 'exploiting' Metamorphic Transfer it becomes apparent that entire schools of power get ignored. Only Egoists gain the ability early enough to qualify as 'abusive' by taking it at fifth level.




This is wrong. You need exactly two feats (Expanded Knowledge, Metamorphic Transfer) for this. The cost of two feats is ridiculously low for the abilities gained.



> With the summoned monsters his list of supernatural abilites is massive.




Massive? A list of a few dozen (usually underpowered compared to the level when you get them) creatures, doesn't really compare to the complete range of monsters from all monster books out there. Not even close!

And it's quite a difference, if a summoned creature has it, or you have it.

Anyways, summon monster surely adds a lot of versatility, but the stuff you get at the level when you get it, is surely not as bad as what you can do with MT.

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Apr 29, 2004)

The Souljourner said:
			
		

> The main drawback I see to Psions is their lack of variety in the powers they get.  A wizard can have protective spells, mental domination spells, direct damage spells, movement spells, summon spells, and a variety of utility spells.




Yep, that's what I think as well (comparing to wizard or sorcerer, both work here).



> Psions get inferior versions of most of these, and equivalent versions of a select few (in their discipline).




I do not agree here, tho. Powers are not inferior most of the time. Some are for sure, but most are not IMHO.

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Apr 29, 2004)

ph0rk said:
			
		

> (Though they may need a pack animal to carry their library )




Heward's Handy Haversack or Boccob's Blessed Book (HHH / BBB ) both work fine! 

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Apr 29, 2004)

sumi said:
			
		

> As has been previously mentioned most of the psions spells are self.




Yep. I also stated this.



> My current DM plays an 10th level sorcerer in another campaign and is the most powerful party member by miles.




That might be linked to the other party members, tho. But I don't say, that the sorcerer is weak (not so much as most others think he is), just a slight bit behind the wizard.



> Also, Thanee I cannot believe how dismissive you are of the arcane spells that a sorcerer has a choice of, even if it only 3 at 20th.




Dismissive? *blink*

I am quite certain, that I _always_ stated this as the psions biggest disadvantage (the weaker power selection)!

However, since the sorcerer has only so few spells of each level, the actual versatility in the end is not so much ahead of the psion (unlike the wizard, who can fully utilize this arcane bonus). Both will pick many standard spells/powers and only few others normally.



> Maybe exps are given away like confeti in your campaigns but exps are not in mine(hence why I am still 10th.) It is far easier to gain money.




Nah, neither xp nor gold is given in excessive amounts. But I know how much some of the material costs (i.e. Stoneskin) hurt. If Stoneskin had an equivalent xp cost, I would consider this spell for a sorcerer, with the 250gp I am not.



> I apologise if I am sounding a little bit cynical but I do not see that at powerful levels the sorcerer is that much disadvantaged, if at all. As a player character he is a much more useful party member, with his movement abilities, his buffing abilities, his offensive abilities and his interesting esoteric spells that get the party through the next stage of their adventure.




You mainly just state stuff I have written above already (as psion disadvantages).



> If there is a criticism of the psion it is the powers are too orientated to the self...




In 3.0 there was a feat or power which allowed to use personal powers on others... don't remember the name, tho. Is this still in existance?



> One final point - the thread starts with psions vs sorcerers vs wizards. I gather Thanee that psions are not more powerful than wizards as you do not mention them much in your statements after the first page. Maybe they are not that too over the top.




I don't mention wizards much, since they are so much harder to compare, because of the completely different way they use spells.

My line of reasoning is, that the sorcerer is underpowered compared to the psion. My experience is, that the sorcerer is not so much underpowered compared to the wizard. The conclusion (to me) is, that psions are a bit more powerful than wizards, which they (IMHO) shouldn't be. That's, of course, only my experience and opinion.

Bye
Thanee


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## Kalanyr (Apr 29, 2004)

A Wizard's "immense" spell repetoire isn't what people are making out, a Wizard with a repertoire ,twice that of a sorceror say, will be pretty much broke if he follows the standard GP per level distributions.


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## Camarath (Apr 29, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Now - going into silly mode for a moment - if psions do not use their powers in a reasonably natural way as stated above (that is augmenting most of their powers to a degree, but not to max), but instead simply go for maximum damage dice, they could (just one example off the top of my head) at 20th level (28 Int) do 3280d6+3280 of damage in a single day (trigger items not included, of course)! How does that compare to the "pushing 400" above?



Thanee how would you mind explaning to me how this would be done?


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## Thanee (Apr 29, 2004)

With 216 unaugmented Energy Missiles. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Camarath (Apr 29, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> With 216 unaugmented Energy Missiles.
> 
> Bye
> Thanee



If you count the damage for each of the upto 5 target within 15ft as seperate damage. If one does the same with area spells one would also get very high damage numbers. A similar calculation using a Sorc and Fireball yields 22880d6 damage just using 3rd and up spells with no metamagic augmentation.


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## Spatula (Apr 29, 2004)

sumi said:
			
		

> If there is a criticism of the psion it is the powers are too orientated to the self and does not allow for much character development



Personal-only powers = no character development?  You'll have to explain that one to me.



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> In 3.0 there was a feat or power which allowed to use personal powers on others... don't remember the name, tho. Is this still in existance?



What feat or power is that?  There's a meta_magic_ feat that turns a touch spell into a ranged touch spell, but that's hardly the same thing.  I've never seen any printed material that allows a caster or manifester to use personal-range spells/powers on others (aside from sharing spells with familiars/psicrystals).


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## reiella (Apr 29, 2004)

Spatula said:
			
		

> Crystallize (shaper 6) is the psionic equivalent of Flesh to Stone.




Very much not the case.

Crystallize can only be 'cured' by Dispel Psionics [and arguably Dispel Magic in a transparent world].  However, that does kinda make it "Easier" to deal with on the fly than a Flesh to Stone effect.  After all, you're alot more likly to have Dispel Psionics/Magic available than Stone to Flesh .

Blindsight is in PGtF.

Once I hit upon a nice realization and some numbers [ran very long ago in this thread], it didn't seem to upset me/frustrate me as much.  The Psion with Energy Ball would typically outperform the Sorcerer in damage output.  A kineticist typically would as well, although the difference is "fairly" minor [in my opinion at least].  Psions have a few fewer selection area suppression spells, and nothing in my opinion equal to Horrid Wilting [mostly a "minor" distinction, in my opinion].

Fun sidenote : While converting my 3.0 high level Psion NPCs over, I tended to 'have' to use my higher level power slots for some 'better' lower level utility power.

Other fun note : Erm, Psions -CANNOT- restore their psicrystal if it's lost with the RAW.  Period.  That's somewhat major depending on the campaign.  The Crystal itself it gained by a feat.

Thanee, metapsionic costs 2pp less not because of the lowered effective caster level...  It costs less because of the expenditure of psionic focus.  Designer said as much when justifying why Extend Power does not share the same cost benefit.

I'm quickly approaching the belief that a spell-slot spellcaster cannot be fairly compared against a point-based spellcaster, and it's a far more drastic difference than Spontaneous versus Non-Spontaneous spellcasters.

Of course, I think that the UA spontaneous spellcasters are a bit on the weak side.

Metamorphic Transfer reminds me of some Wild Feats to be honest, and also seem like they'd be more useful to a Wilder [with expanded knowledge?  gah I dunno now ;P] due to the Charisma stat base.

Quick Reminder about those Psi Focus feats : You automatically lose your focus if you ever hit 0 Power Points.  This will more so be a problem for low level psions [and psy warriors who have trouble diversifying their ability portfolio].

And the feat Thanee is thinking of is "Scribe Tatoo" or Brew Potion .


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## Kitsune (Apr 29, 2004)

I'd be willing to put my 3.0 14th level Wizard against any psion, any day of the week.  The 3.5 shift would reduce his power somewhat, but from what I recall, it wouldn't be a significant amount; most of his spells that I looked up were untouched.  He was a walking death machine, able to raise most of his defensive spells in a single round with a Quickened spell and a Contingencied spell, and then laying out an entire spectrum of fire, acid, sonic, and electrical damage.  Losing Mass Haste would put a dent in the speed at which he could lay out his attack spells, but I can assure you from ample combat experience that his hefty number of offensive spells covered every variety of threats the party ever encountered.

At first brush when 3.0 came out, I wasn't keen on the wizards at all.  Why would anyone want to play a class where you're burdened by memorized spells?  Ah, but then I actually played one, and found that once I got up in levels, I could memorize so many spells that I had more than enough room for a wide variety of utility spells while still packing in ample raw offense.  My wizard envies no one.

To be frank, a point by point analysis between casting classes would be largely futile.  My wizard has never once exhausted his compliment of spells in a day.  Whenever the party has run through enough things that his spell list has taken a sizable dent, they've gone through enough hitpoints and clerics' heals that they rest out the remainder of the day anyways.  Running the math to show that class X can do Y damage if they devote every point/slot to spell Z is all well and good, but meaningless in actual play.

A sorceror could outdamage my wizard.  Hands down.  I only have a dozen or so attack spells memorized at any given time, so if a sorceror burned all of their slots to cast thirty fireballs, they've outdamaged me.  Kudos to them, if there's ever a dungeon where someone needs to toss thirty fireballs, they're clearly on top.  And yet, I'm not sitting around gnashing my teeth and pulling my hair out, because there's absolutely no situation that I've ever run across to require that kind of focus on mindless offense.  I'm happy with my spells, and am comfortable with the sacrifice of offense that I made to have a versatile number of utility spells always at hand.

A psion could conceivably have a good amount of utility powers available and still be able to toss thirty fireballs, granted.  However, the odds of one of them needing to toss thirty fireballs is the same as my needing to do it: nil.  In a real-world situation, a psion would be casting attacks and utility powers at a ratio equal to my wizard, and would burn their power points at an amount equal to my burning spell slots, and at the end of the day would be in exactly the same situation as a wizard.  So I see no problem whatsoever.

I do, however, feel that sorcerors are too weak at present.  They strike me as being pretty clearly inferior to a psion, having the similar strength of flexibility but the crippling weakness of being awful with metamagic; taking away Haste hurt them badly.  3.5 sorcerors need a boost in my opinion.  That does not make the psions overpowered, but rather makes the sorcerors underpowered.


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## Old Gumphrey (Apr 29, 2004)

> the crippling weakness of being awful with metamagic




Little off-topic, but in all my experiences sorcerers are the undisputed kings of metamagic. Casting silent spells from hiding or when silenced, stilled spells when grappled or bound, anything. The fact that they don't have to prepare them that way is what makes them so good. If your wizard prepares everything silent or stilled, he's shooting himself in the foot and reducing his overall power considerably. Add to that the fact that the sorcerer is not locked into his choice of what feat to apply to which spells before he knows when he'll need them. Crippling weakness indeed.


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## Thanee (Apr 29, 2004)

Camarath said:
			
		

> If you count the damage for each of the upto 5 target within 15ft as seperate damage. If one does the same with area spells one would also get very high damage numbers. A similar calculation using a Sorc and Fireball yields 22880d6 damage just using 3rd and up spells with no metamagic augmentation.




I did say, it was a silly example, or not. But even with single target (3d6 x 216) it beats the "400" by +60%.

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Apr 29, 2004)

reiella said:
			
		

> Thanee, metapsionic costs 2pp less not because of the lowered effective caster level...  It costs less because of the expenditure of psionic focus.  Designer said as much when justifying why Extend Power does not share the same cost benefit.




Uhm? I like my explanation much better, tho, as expending the focus is not much of an issue for metapsionics (it is for Power Penetration, but that is twice as powerful also to compensate).



> I'm quickly approaching the belief that a spell-slot spellcaster cannot be fairly compared against a point-based spellcaster.




Because point-based is just plain better? 



> Metamorphic Transfer reminds me of some Wild Feats to be honest, and also seem like they'd be more useful to a Wilder [with expanded knowledge?  gah I dunno now ;P] due to the Charisma stat base.




Yep as a wilder it would be really good. The Wild Feats give *one* benefit usually, or not? MT gives hundreds of those!



> And the feat Thanee is thinking of is "Scribe Tatoo" or Brew Potion .




?

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Apr 29, 2004)

Kitsune said:
			
		

> I'd be willing to put my 3.0 14th level Wizard against any psion, any day of the week.




In 3.0 everyone would.  A lot has changed compared to that.



> I do, however, feel that sorcerors are too weak at present.  They strike me as being pretty clearly inferior to a psion, having the similar strength of flexibility but the crippling weakness of being awful with metamagic; taking away Haste hurt them badly.  3.5 sorcerors need a boost in my opinion.  That does not make the psions overpowered, but rather makes the sorcerors underpowered.




Yeah, that's what I am saying (roughly) as well.
Just that I think the psion is better than the wizard, too, altho - as said before - it's almost impossible to compare spontaneous to prepared casting.

Would you be inclined to look up my re-revised Sorcerer in the house rules section and tell me how you think that one compares to the wizard IYO? Thank you! 

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Apr 29, 2004)

Old Gumphrey said:
			
		

> Little off-topic, but in all my experiences sorcerers are the undisputed kings of metamagic.




Yeah, sorcerers are much better than wizards in terms of metamagic (thanks to their spontaneous casting). Depending on how you deal with metamagic rods, this is not the case, tho. But that's only a side note.

Psions are way ahead to sorcerers in terms of "metamagic" usage.

Bye
Thanee


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## Zhure (Apr 29, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Are you speaking of displays here? I don't speak of display. Wizards cannot hide the "displays" of their spells at all (audible, visible). Many spells do not have "displays", tho, which kinda balances this.
> 
> I'm speaking of the complete absence of verbal and somatic components!




Which really only makes a difference in a silence field. So YAY psions are better at casting in a silence field.



> Energy Substitution in general only applies to "energy" type spells. Of course it's best for the kineticist, but even only one such power grants the complete flexibility (which is huge - it's roughly five powers in one this way - or one power + four feats)!




I'd rather have four feats any day. The arcanist gets multiple energy types across multiple spells. Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Melf's, etc. The psion gets multiple area effects. Both take up the same number of spells/powers. The psion can customize which energy type he uses. I'd rather have four feats. Or at least the ability to manifest an acid effect before 11th level.



> Most people I know, that play sorcerers consider this feat



Heighten







> highly powerful (for sorcerers only, tho).




A feat which Psions don't get access to at all. 



> Just meant, that the bonus feat is obviously the substitute for the removed psicrystal ability (which is a feat now). It's surely meant that way (judging from where it originated from), but will work either way, of course.




Which means the wizard is 'ahead' one feat. The Psion doesn't *have* to take Psicrystal Affinity and Imprint Stone, but the Wizard gets the arcane versions for free. In exchange the Psion can take either, but not both. He can also take a different feats. That makes them more customizable but not as powerful.



> This is wrong. You need exactly two feats (Expanded Knowledge, Metamorphic Transfer) for this. The cost of two feats is ridiculously low for the abilities gained.




At what levels? Expanded Knowledge at 9 and Metamorphic Transfer at 10? This is why generic examples mean so little. We're talking about a 10th level character. A 10th level summoner can do a lot too but no one's nerfing summoned monsters.




> Massive? A list of a few dozen (usually underpowered compared to the level when you get them) creatures, doesn't really compare to the complete range of monsters from all monster books out there. Not even close!




Yes, massive. All kinds of outsiders and elementals. This means arcanists are better at outsider effects. Psions are better at magical beast/abberration effects but by expending a feat or two feats.



> And it's quite a difference, if a summoned creature has it, or you have it.




I'd much rather face a psion metamorphasized into a medusa with an AC of 15 (since I can just close my eyes) than a wizard with a summoned fiendish Girallon smiting and rending me while blasting me with magic missiles.

Summoned critters are buffable and - most importantly- represent additional actions. Going out and using a metamporhic transfer ability means putting oneself in harm's way, something no d4 class should do with impunity.

Greg


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## Thanee (Apr 29, 2004)

Zhure said:
			
		

> Which really only makes a difference in a silence field. So YAY psions are better at casting in a silence field.




If that's the only difference for you... I know quite a few more... 



> I'd rather have four feats any day.




Yeah, everyone would. More choice. But noone gets those feats.
The psion has the abilities mentioned, tho.



> The arcanist gets multiple energy types across multiple spells. Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Melf's, etc. The psion gets multiple area effects. Both take up the same number of spells/powers.




Just, that the psion needs maybe 2-3 to cover most relevant aspects and the arcanist two or three times that many (most won't even get that many, of course, and rather leave out some not so important aspects, but still) and then needs to renew them a couple levels later because they are capped.



> The psion can customize which energy type he uses. I'd rather have four feats. Or at least the ability to manifest an acid effect before 11th level.




Yeah, I'd also rather have melf's acid arrow instead of energy missile... erm... not! 



> Heighten
> 
> A feat which Psions don't get access to at all.




And what does the psion need this feat for!? Most powers have it built-in!!!

And please don't get back to the Globe of Invulnerability now (which certainly isn't a factor at most encounters), yes it doesn't help against those (that's what higher level powers are for), but it does add to the DC, which is the primary advantage of Heighten!



> Which means the wizard is 'ahead' one feat. The Psion doesn't *have* to take Psicrystal Affinity and Imprint Stone, but the Wizard gets the arcane versions for free. In exchange the Psion can take either, but not both. He can also take a different feats. That makes them more customizable but not as powerful.




Yep, the wizard has one more feat. The psion has much better choices for his feats, tho (all psionic feats in addition to metapsionics/-magic, which wizards are not very good at using and item creation). Guess that's pretty even in the end between psion and wizard.



> At what levels? Expanded Knowledge at 9 and Metamorphic Transfer at 10? This is why generic examples mean so little. We're talking about a 10th level character. A 10th level summoner can do a lot too but no one's nerfing summoned monsters.




How about you make a list... all abilities a 10th level summoner can get and all abilities the MT psion can get... then try to compare, if you have enough paper to write all those abilities down, that is... 



> Yes, massive. All kinds of outsiders and elementals. This means arcanists are better at outsider effects. Psions are better at magical beast/abberration effects but by expending a feat or two feats.




I take it... you really do not see the difference...



> Summoned critters are buffable and - most importantly- represent additional actions. Going out and using a metamporhic transfer ability means putting oneself in harm's way, something no d4 class should do with impunity.




Summoned monsters are good, of course. Psions can create astral constructs. Forgot?

And summoning has one huge drawback (the 1 round casting time). It takes considereable amounts of resources to counteract this, if you don't want to let your spells get ruined.

But ok, if you don't see the difference between the two... it's not like this would be an important item... I do not base my argumentation on single broken abilities. This particular one I just like to point out, as it is so immensely unbalanced.

Just one lil side note... There once was a book called Magic of Faerûn. It had a spell called Fiendform. It allowed to assume the form of a fiend (one you can summon via Summon Monster I-VI) and use the abilities of that fiend.

Now, you obviously say, that this is roughly equal (summoning and having the abilities). In this case, the abilities in question are even completely equal!

Still WotC had to errata that spell, because it was horribly unbalanced!

Why? You could simply summon the fiend and let him do the stuff for you... maybe there's a _slight_ difference?

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Apr 29, 2004)

Zhure said:
			
		

> I'd much rather face a psion metamorphasized into a medusa with an AC of 15 (since I can just close my eyes)




Yeah, seems like a sound tactic when facing a psion capable of doing this... 

Bye
Thanee


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## Spatula (Apr 29, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Psions are way ahead to sorcerers in terms of "metamagic" usage.



Now you're just making stuff up.

Psions get more feats.  One of those has to go to Psionic Meditation in order to even begin competing with the sorcerer.  Presumably another will go to Expanded Knowledge (metamorphosis) and another to Metamorphic Transfer, since that combo is so powerful it can't be passed up, right?  Hey, where did all those bonus feats go?! 

Sorcerers can stack metamagic effects on the same spell.  Psions can't (until Epic levels).  Sorcerers don't need to worry about making a skill check in order to keep using metamagic effects throughout an encounter.  A Psion needs a +19 Concentration bonus in order to not have to worry about regaining his/her focus each round.  While the use of metamagics will restrict a sorcerer to using lower-level spells, those spells are still cast at full effectiveness.  A psion using metapsionics is not only restricted to using lower-level powers, but can't augment those powers as far because metapsionic feats contribute towards the power point cap.

So how is the psion so far ahead of the sorcerer in metamagic/metapsionic usage?


----------



## Thanee (Apr 29, 2004)

Spatula said:
			
		

> Now you're just making stuff up.




You obviously did not get what I meant there (and why I said "metamagic" instead of metamagic/metapsionic)... see below for explanation... 



> Sorcerers can stack metamagic effects on the same spell.  Psions can't (until Epic levels).




Actually they can (two at least)... but it costs more feats! 

Ok, what I meant is simply, that psions by the nature of their powers get the abilities (or at least primary abilities) of many metamagic feats - and not just pointless ones, but rather some sorcerers often spend feats on - for free!

Here's the list again...

Eschew Materials (generic not metamagic, just for completeness)
Silent Spell
Still Spell
Heighten Spell (only DC, not the actual spell level increase (globes and such))
Energy Substitution (Energy Missile, ...)

Then Empower and Maximize, while they are a bit more powerful in comparison than an augmented power, are not that much better. It's probably not very useful for a psion to even get those feats, because of the reduced efficiency since they can just use the additional PP to augment without spending a feat.

That's all without any feats or psionic focus crap.

Isn't that way ahead?

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Thanee (Apr 29, 2004)

Spatula said:
			
		

> A psion using metapsionics is not only restricted to using lower-level powers, but can't augment those powers as far because metapsionic feats contribute towards the power point cap.




Please also don't forget, that metapsionics are one level less than equivalent metamagic.

Bye
Thanee


----------



## (Psi)SeveredHead (Apr 29, 2004)

Look here.
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=229469


----------



## Thanee (Apr 29, 2004)

Hmm... only thing of importance there is the actual first post (the talk about being able to burn through ones PP quickly... well everyone should know that by now ), which talks about durations.

From what I have seen, the durations are pretty much the same, tho.

Dominate has been fixed (or will be soon).
What else has significantly shorter durations?

Bye
Thanee


----------



## (Psi)SeveredHead (Apr 30, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Hmm... only thing of importance there is the actual first post (the talk about being able to burn through ones PP quickly... well everyone should know that by now ), which talks about durations.
> 
> From what I have seen, the durations are pretty much the same, tho.
> 
> ...




Moment of Prescience, but I'm sure you can find the rest in your copy of the XPH.


----------



## James McMurray (Apr 30, 2004)

I wager that Moment of Prescience will receive the same "we forgot an augmentation" erratta that Dominate got.


----------



## reiella (Apr 30, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Uhm? I like my explanation much better, tho, as expending the focus is not much of an issue for metapsionics (it is for Power Penetration, but that is twice as powerful also to compensate).
> -- snip --
> 
> ?
> ...




Erm, Focus is a bit of an issue, and it's also been stated by the developer that the reason for the reduced cost was becaue of the Focus cost [WotC Psi boards].  That and it makes it kinda obvious as to 'why' Extend Power doesn't follow suit .  But eh.

And was refering to the feat that allows you to cast a personal power on someone else .

So, a psion can 'compete' with a Sorcerer in a "Single Metamagic Spell' with one feat [Psionic Meditation] (out of 5).  They can compete with a Sorcerer in terms of 'Double Metamagic Spell' with three feats [Psionic Meditation, Psicrystal Affinity, and Psicrystal Containment].  Assuming that you consider the 20 DC Concentration check equal balance for the ability to "prepay" the cost.

Also, since I noticed some folks brought it up, but they didn't get detailed.

The Anti-Psionic Cheese : 
The anti-psi feats [obviously and mentioned]
Glossolalia [sets an ugly precident for 'custom' spells to be able to stutter Psionic Focus completely at higher levels].
Mental Pinnacle, not necessarily anti-psi, but bleh blah as I mentioned above.
Psychic Turmoil, a passive 'Catapsi'-esque effect.
Catapsi EEVIL


----------



## Drow Jones (Apr 30, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Hmm... only thing of importance there is the actual first post (the talk about being able to burn through ones PP quickly... well everyone should know that by now ), which talks about durations.



You should check also the table posted by Malukuboy later in the thread. He made this table to remind him how many powers his psion could use per day per level. Pay close attention to the levels 6+ on this chart... 

Check also the first and the last posts on this thread:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=230366

- DJ


----------



## Thanee (Apr 30, 2004)

I have seen that table, but it seemed rather pointless to me, as you cannot divide psionic power usage by power level that way...

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Thanee (Apr 30, 2004)

reiella said:
			
		

> And was refering to the feat that allows you to cast a personal power on someone else .




Heh. Now after looking up what this line was meant to reply to, I got it, but there was something in 3.0 (I'll ask our psion player next time we play), which did what I said. Or he did it wrong, but that's unlikely at least. 

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Thanee (Apr 30, 2004)

reiella said:
			
		

> Erm, Focus is a bit of an issue, and it's also been stated by the developer that the reason for the reduced cost was becaue of the Focus cost [WotC Psi boards].




Yeah, have seen that in your first post already. 

But even then, making each feat better to compensate for that stupid focus thing might balance each other in some weird way, but it's pretty obvious, that the "cost" will only be circumvented, or the abilities be ignored (since metapsionics are basically redundant, anyways) in actual play, since the mechanic is so bad.



> So, a psion can 'compete' with a Sorcerer in a "Single Metamagic Spell' with one feat [Psionic Meditation] (out of 5).




If you discount for what I have written above (especially the usage of 4+ metamagic feats for free) and let both start at an equal level, yes. But that's not a very accurate comparison then.

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Drow Jones (Apr 30, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> I have seen that table, but it seemed rather pointless to me, as you cannot divide psionic power usage by power level that way...



Why not? He is using PPs to get these numbers.

I see the table as a rough estimation on how many powers a psion will usually manifest for each level (augmented or not) during a typical adventuring day.

I know it is just one guy's take on his particular character, but it is from actual play.

- DJ


----------



## Thanee (Apr 30, 2004)

I'd probably rather list powers per day in terms of PP spent on one power, not by power level, since powers of all levels are augmentable.

Well, ok, you can use it as an estimate of what is doable with a pretty normal distribution of PP over the power levels.

These numbers MUST be lower than those of both the wizard and the sorcerer, BTW!
If they were equal or higher, it would be even more ridiculous.

I just meant, that it completely neglects the huge options psions have with their flexibility.

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Thanee (Apr 30, 2004)

Drow Jones said:
			
		

> I know it is just one guy's take on his particular character, but it is from actual play.




You mean, he played the character from 1 through 20 and wrote down how many powers he actually used each day and took averages?

I somehow doubt that... 

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Drow Jones (Apr 30, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> These numbers MUST be lower than those of both the wizard and the sorcerer, BTW!
> If they were equal or higher, it would be even more ridiculous.



Hey, I'm not debating against you!  
As I said (hinted) in a previous post, when I look at this table it looks like a psion can manifest a great amount of 6+ lvl powers even with a decent amount of low  level utility powers. (At Psion levels 11+.)



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> I just meant, that it completely neglects the huge options psions have with their flexibility.



Of course. It's just an example of a possible manifestation distribution on a given character level per day.

- DJ


----------



## Drow Jones (Apr 30, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> You mean, he played the character from 1 through 20 and wrote down how many powers he actually used each day and took averages?
> 
> I somehow doubt that...



No, but I bet he took a look at powers the character has/will have at each level, and which he wants to manifest or are still useful to him (buffs, etc...) on a given character level, before estimating the numbers.

But you're right... I'm just assuming this.   

- DJ


----------



## Thanee (Apr 30, 2004)

Drow Jones said:
			
		

> Hey, I'm not debating against you!







> As I said (hinted) in a previous post, when I look at this table it looks like a psion can manifest a great amount of 6+ lvl powers even with a decent amount of low level utility powers. (At Psion levels 11+.)



 Yep.

 About the other link you posted... I have only browsed through it. That's just one more item bolstering my confidence in stating, that WotC did no decent playtesting with that stuff (neither in 3.0, nor in 3.5).

 Bye
 Thanee


----------



## kitoy (Apr 30, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> But even then, making each feat better to compensate for that stupid focus thing might balance each other in some weird way, but it's pretty obvious, that the "cost" will only be circumvented, or the abilities be ignored (since metapsionics are basically redundant, anyways) in actual play, since the mechanic is so bad.




Have you actually played with the "focus thing" mechanic? If so could you give us details on how it went for you?  If not, how can you make a blanket statement saying "the mechanic is so bad"?

Then a few posts later, you criticize the power point table from the WotC boards by asking if the maker of the table had played a psion from 1 to 20.  Have you played a psion from 1 to 20?  

As I've said before, you're making a lot of observations and criticisms based purely on speculation.  Please give the unmodified psion from XPH a decent test run before you start making judgement calls.

If I remember correctly, that thread from the WotC boards is about people's acutal experience with psions *in play*.  They're talking about how they burn through their pp in only a few or, in some cases, one combat.  Some of that can be attributed to people learning how to play a psion, but can't some of the reason be that the psion was built to burn through pp at a faster rate than an arcane caster burns through spells?


----------



## Thanee (Apr 30, 2004)

kitoy said:
			
		

> Have you actually played with the "focus thing" mechanic? If so could you give us details on how it went for you? If not, how can you make a blanket statement saying "the mechanic is so bad"?



 By translating my game experience onto the subject.
 I'm pretty sure, that the psionic focus will be mostly annoying.

 Do you think psion players will pick up many feats, which require the expenditure of the focus? I don't. That's what I basically meant there. It just makes people stay away from those feats, which IMHO is a bad thing as it restricts character variability.



> Then a few posts later, you criticize the power point table from the WotC boards by asking if the maker of the table had played a psion from 1 to 20. Have you played a psion from 1 to 20?



 No, obviously not. It was a comment in reply to that the table was derived from game experience, which I just highly doubt, given the nature of the table and how it omits the most important information (the manifester level at which the powers are manifested - if he just means unaugmented powers, than the information in the table is pretty much useless as well, because it won't be like this in actual play).



> As I've said before, you're making a lot of observations and criticisms based purely on speculation.



 It's the other way around, actually, I am making speculations based on observations.



> Please give the unmodified psion from XPH a decent test run before you start making judgement calls.



 Well, I'm afraid, that's not going to happen. We've had enough with the updated 3.0 psion in our campaigns (and that's not purely my opinion).

 And it really doesn't need any tests to see the differences between psion and sorcerer. Not much else I'm stating here (except my clearly labeled opinion, that this is the XPH's fault more than the PHB's).



> If I remember correctly, that thread from the WotC boards is about people's acutal experience with psions *in play*. They're talking about how they burn through their pp in only a few or, in some cases, one combat. Some of that can be attributed to people learning how to play a psion, but can't some of the reason be that the psion was built to burn through pp at a faster rate than an arcane caster burns through spells?



 Well, obviously. You just have to take a look at the scaling versus augmentation issues.

 The only thing, which can only really be seen in play is how my assumption, that spells and powers are roughly equal in power, is correct or in what direction it is shifted.

 Bye
 Thanee


----------



## Zhure (Apr 30, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> If that's the only difference for you... I know quite a
> few more...




I'm listening but hear nothing. The primary advantage for the 'still' and 'silent' applications of psionics is being able to manifest in a silence field. It's a rare case.




> Yeah, everyone would. More choice. But noone gets those feats.
> The psion has the abilities mentioned, tho.




But not, as you imply, the four feats. It's similar in function but far weaker.




> Just, that the psion needs maybe 2-3 to cover most relevant aspects and the arcanist two or three times that many (most won't even get that many, of course, and rather leave out some not so important aspects, but still) and then needs to renew them a couple levels later because they are capped.




No, the numbers are identical for both. 




> Yeah, I'd also rather have melf's acid arrow instead of energy missile... erm... not!




You would when facing all those summoned arcanist creatures with fire/cold immunity.



> And what does the psion need this feat for!? Most powers have it built-in!!!




Acid? 



> And please don't get back to the Globe of Invulnerability now (which certainly isn't a factor at most encounters), yes it doesn't help against those (that's what higher level powers are for), but it does add to the DC, which is the primary advantage of Heighten!




But it's ok if we ignore the primary advantage of Globe of Invulnerability?



> Yep, the wizard has one more feat. The psion has much better choices for his feats, tho (all psionic feats in addition to metapsionics/-magic, which wizards are not very good at using and item creation). Guess that's pretty even in the end between psion and wizard.




Correct. The psion gets slightly better feats but slightly fewer than a wizard.




> How about you make a list... all abilities a 10th level summoner can get and all abilities the MT psion can get... then try to compare, if you have enough paper to write all those abilities down, that is...




Ok, I have my list of all summoned monster abilities. (See attached.)



> I take it... you really do not see the difference...




The difference is a lot of summoned creatures are extraplanar and Metamorphic Transfer won't grant those abilities.



> Summoned monsters are good, of course. Psions can create astral constructs. Forgot?




Now we're talking about ANOTHER feat for the psion. He can't have both Astral Construct AND Metamorphasis without yet another feat.



> And summoning has one huge drawback (the 1 round casting time). It takes considereable amounts of resources to counteract this, if you don't want to let your spells get ruined.




So does Astral Construct.



> But ok, if you don't see the difference between the two... it's not like this would be an important item... I do not base my argumentation on single broken abilities. This particular one I just like to point out, as it is so immensely unbalanced.




I'll grant that it might be unbalanced, but no one has showed it to be yet in any way.



> Just one lil side note... There once was a book called Magic of Faerûn. It had a spell called Fiendform. It allowed to assume the form of a fiend (one you can summon via Summon Monster I-VI) and use the abilities of that fiend.




Not being familiar with the spell I can't comment on it, but I'd have to guess it's was either not a full round cast, or of a longer duration than the summon monster spells.



> Still WotC had to errata that spell, because it was horribly unbalanced!
> 
> Why? You could simply summon the fiend and let him do the stuff for you... maybe there's a _slight_ difference?




I'd still far rather face a caster transformed into a Girallon then a fiendish Girallon AND a caster.


----------



## Zhure (Apr 30, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Yeah, seems like a sound tactic when facing a psion capable of doing this...
> 
> Bye
> Thanee




Thanks. It's what most intelligent people would do when facing such a threat. A fifty-fifty miss chance (or less if I cast true strike) means a low-level sorcerer with a crossbow can mess up the medusa pretty quickly.

Greg


----------



## Zhure (Apr 30, 2004)

*Attached*

(I forgot the summoned monster attachment.)


----------



## two (Apr 30, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Well, I'm afraid, that's not going to happen. We've had enough with the updated 3.0 psion in our campaigns (and that's not purely my opinion).
> 
> Bye
> Thanee




Ah...

Now we are getting somewhere, after 10 pages or so.

Now, Thanee, please, if you would, recline upon this fainting couch.  Prop your head up on this soft red pillow.  Are you too warm?  Too cold?  No?  Good.  Just right.  Now, take a deep breath.  Exhale.  Inhale.  There.  Perfect.  Now --

Tell us of this updated 3.0 psion --

The one that seems to have irritated not only yourself but the party in general --

If you would?


----------



## kitoy (Apr 30, 2004)

two said:
			
		

> Ah...
> 
> Now we are getting somewhere, after 10 pages or so.
> 
> ...




Yes, Thanee, have you converted a psion converted from 3.0 to 3.5 in your campaign?  Has the character been in an actual game yet?  How did it go?  If you're talking from in-game experience, your arguments would have a lot more weight.  At least for me personally.


----------



## two (Apr 30, 2004)

kitoy said:
			
		

> So you do have a psion converted from 3.0 to 3.5 in your campaign?  Has the character been in an actual game yet?  How did it go?  If you're talking from in-game experience, your arguments would have a lot more weight.  At least for me personally.




I wasn't aware I was making an argument.

I've never played a psion, never seen one played, never read any psionic rules, never had much interest in them.

My comments were purely in response to the thread itself, not the rules debate, except so far as the debate related to some bad experience somebody apparantly had with a converted Psion, in which I felt some curiosity.


----------



## kitoy (Apr 30, 2004)

two said:
			
		

> I wasn't aware I was making an argument.
> 
> I've never played a psion, never seen one played, never read any psionic rules, never had much interest in them.
> 
> My comments were purely in response to the thread itself, not the rules debate, except so far as the debate related to some bad experience somebody apparantly had with a converted Psion, in which I felt some curiosity.




Sorry, I got excited, I wasn't directing my comments towards you, I was asking Thanee.  Actually, if anyone has any experience with a Psion in actual play, I would like to hear from them.


----------



## James McMurray (Apr 30, 2004)

> Do you think psion players will pick up many feats, which require the expenditure of the focus? I don't. That's what I basically meant there. It just makes people stay away from those feats, which IMHO is a bad thing as it restricts character variability.



The primary focus expenders are metapsi feats. Given that until you are high level it is nearly impossible to apply multiple metamagic feats to a single spell, the same should hold true for metapsi. The focus requirement causes that. IMO psions are just as likely to pick up multiple metapsi feats as sorcerers ar to pick up metamagic feats. In other words, they'll ge the ones they want to be able to use.



> I'm listening but hear nothing. The primary advantage for the 'still' and 'silent' applications of psionics is being able to manifest in a silence field. It's a rare case.



Other advantages include being able to cast undetected by anyone around you, nd being agble to cast while grappled or held. Innate still and silent is definitely a big benfit in the psion's favor. Being able to completely hide a manifestation with a DC 15 check is also a huge plus. Its hard for an enemy to attack the guy that is energy balling them if they don't know who he is.


----------



## Psiblade (Apr 30, 2004)

I feel that psionic characters are balanced in comparison to wizards. Psionic focus is hard to regain in combat. First, at best regaining focus is a move action. Second, there is no regain focus defensively ability (always generates AoO). The other weakness for psionic characters is that you will run down on power points fast. My character would never throw 216 energy missiles. Instead, psionic character must augment to the max in order to maintain efficency. The evoker that I play with does not ever run out of spells even with his two lesser rods of quickening.

-Psiblade


----------



## Thanee (Apr 30, 2004)

Zhure said:
			
		

> I'm listening but hear nothing. The primary advantage for the 'still' and 'silent' applications of psionics is being able to manifest in a silence field. It's a rare case.




Uhm... let's see... how about Grapple? Stealth?



> But not, as you imply, the four feats. It's similar in function but far weaker.




It's weaker than the hypothetical four feats, but much stronger than nothing!



> No, the numbers are identical for both.




Not even close...



> You would when facing all those summoned arcanist creatures with fire/cold immunity.




I'd still pick the Energy Missile and do lightning or sonic damage instead.



> But it's ok if we ignore the primary advantage of Globe of Invulnerability?




In fact, yes. DC is relevant on every single manifestation. Globe of Invulnerability maybe in 1% of those (if numbers are that high even).



> Correct. The psion gets slightly better feats but slightly fewer than a wizard.




Yay! 





> Ok, I have my list of all summoned monster abilities. (See attached.)
> 
> The difference is a lot of summoned creatures are extraplanar and Metamorphic Transfer won't grant those abilities.




Nice list, now make the other? And no I won't do that, I'm not crazy enough to write down the hundreds of abilities you would get access to this way...



> Now we're talking about ANOTHER feat for the psion. He can't have both Astral Construct AND Metamorphasis without yet another feat.




Yeah, I have said so quite a few times already, that psions have a weaker power base.



> So does Astral Construct.




Uhm... what are we comparing again?

I just stated Astral Construct, because the psion could get that (instead of MT, which would be pretty dumb, really, as MT is like 10 times as powerful), if he wanted, but the comparison is not with AC.



> I'll grant that it might be unbalanced, but no one has showed it to be yet in any way.




I did, read the thread again?

Just to remember, it grants access and extremely cheap usage of effects resembling spells (some of higher level). The DC of those even scales infinitely (without augmentation!). And that's just one of many options.



> Not being familiar with the spell I can't comment on it, but I'd have to guess it's was either not a full round cast, or of a longer duration than the summon monster spells.




Casting time: 1 action. Basically works like polymorph, except for the above.

The reason why I stated this was, that WotC errataed this 6th level spell, but not the 6th level Summon Monster spell. For a reason.



> I'd still far rather face a caster transformed into a Girallon then a fiendish Girallon AND a caster.




Ok. Can't say anything against that. 

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Thanee (Apr 30, 2004)

Zhure said:
			
		

> Thanks. It's what most intelligent people would do when facing such a threat. A fifty-fifty miss chance (or less if I cast true strike) means a low-level sorcerer with a crossbow can mess up the medusa pretty quickly.




Well... don't forget, that the "medusa" is still a psion, not just a medusa.

Facing a psion with closed eyes isn't going to be fun. You cannot even listen where he is! 

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Thanee (Apr 30, 2004)

two said:
			
		

> My comments were purely in response to the thread itself, not the rules debate, except so far as the debate related to some bad experience somebody apparantly had with a converted Psion, in which I felt some curiosity.




Bad experiences... well... the psion is just completely unbalanced and the rules are in no way playtested (otherwise they wouldn't be written as they are).

And the 3.5 psion is very similar to the 3.0 one (with upgrades). The stuff that has changed (which is quite a bit, tho) makes him a lot stronger, but takes away some very silly abilities (altho adding others, which doesn't make it any better in the end).

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Thanee (Apr 30, 2004)

James McMurray said:
			
		

> The primary focus expenders are metapsi feats. Given that until you are high level it is nearly impossible to apply multiple metamagic feats to a single spell, the same should hold true for metapsi. The focus requirement causes that. IMO psions are just as likely to pick up multiple metapsi feats as sorcerers ar to pick up metamagic feats. In other words, they'll ge the ones they want to be able to use.




Which metapsionic feats would you pick?
Me? Probably only Quicken.

Except for some weird high end stuff (like Twin), there is nothing the psion needs (IMHO, of course).

Bye
Thanee


----------



## James McMurray (Apr 30, 2004)

> Second, there is no regain focus defensively ability (always generates AoO).



Since regaining focus is a skill use that provokes an AoO, you cn technically use it defensively via concentration, with a DC of 15.


----------



## Thanee (Apr 30, 2004)

Psiblade said:
			
		

> I feel that psionic characters are balanced in comparison to wizards.




What do you think about sorcerers then? Weaker than both? Equal?



> Psionic focus is hard to regain in combat. First, at best regaining focus is a move action. Second, there is no regain focus defensively ability (always generates AoO).




Yep, altho the feats you will use that on are better than what you get as a spellcaster, don't forget this. Power Penetration (most important one, IMHO) is twice as good. Psionic Endowment grants a DC increase to every discipline (hard to say, if this is worth it, given that you can buy Psionatrix - OTOH +DC is always good ). Quicken Power is not even available in that way to other casters (and is only +3 levels).

The biggest disadvantage of the focus is surely, that you can't do all at once. That hurts.



> The other weakness for psionic characters is that you will run down on power points fast. My character would never throw 216 energy missiles.




Noone with a sane mind would!
It was just a silly example to counter another silly example, after all. 



> Instead, psionic character must augment to the max in order to maintain efficency.




Yeah, that's a given. Altho, they don't need to augment to the max to keep up, maybe like 60-80% (rough estimate) on average (that's the one thing, I am not exactly sure how it works out without actual playtesting - as I stated a few times by now). And some powers scale the same as spells (no augmentation necessary)! A clever psion player will be able to find a good balance here and manifest at least about as many spells as a wizard, I'm quite sure.



> The evoker that I play with does not ever run out of spells even with his two lesser rods of quickening.




You don't have many combats per day, or have you? 

In our games, spellcasters often run out of spells (at least the ones that do something impressive, like the three highest available spell levels), or at least have to save some for later and not just start blasting away.

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Psiblade (Apr 30, 2004)

Hello Thanee,



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> What do you think about sorcerers then? Weaker than both? Equal?
> 
> I see sorcerers as being slightly weaker than psions and wizards. The additional feats, skills, and flexibility of psions & wizards makes them stronger than sorcerers in most home games. The inability to use quickening rods also really hurts.
> 
> ...


----------



## Thanee (Apr 30, 2004)

Geez, are you actually using the Elemental Savant _as is_ in 3.5?

Bye
Thanee


----------



## James McMurray (Apr 30, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Geez, are you actually using the Elemental Savant _as is_ in 3.5?
> 
> Bye
> Thanee



Why wouldn't you? No T&B handy, so I can't check it out myself, but I don't remember it being too powerful.


----------



## The Iron Mark (May 1, 2004)

Spatula said:
			
		

> What feat or power is that?  There's a meta_magic_ feat that turns a touch spell into a ranged touch spell, but that's hardly the same thing.  I've never seen any printed material that allows a caster or manifester to use personal-range spells/powers on others (aside from sharing spells with familiars/psicrystals).



He's probably thinking of the Channel Power feat at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20010928a. Very handy power if I do say so myself. Only 3.0 though, if that matters for your group..


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## Psiblade (May 1, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Geez, are you actually using the Elemental Savant _as is_ in 3.5?
> 
> I have not heard of any problems with elemental savants in 3.5. I am not the player of the wizard, I just know the stats and about the belt full of quickening rods.   I know that the RPGA allows them in the living campaigns. What problems have you had with them?
> 
> -Psiblade


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## nimisgod (May 1, 2004)

I think Thanee's referring to the nerfing of all Save DC boosting abilities in PrCs and Feats that was done in the revision.


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## Thanee (May 1, 2004)

The Iron Mark said:
			
		

> He's probably thinking of the Channel Power feat at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20010928a. Very handy power if I do say so myself. Only 3.0 though, if that matters for your group..




That's the one (power, tho, no feat - wasn't sure myself).

Wonder, if they convert that stuff to 3.5 or not...

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (May 1, 2004)

Psiblade said:
			
		

> What problems have you had with them?




The "problem" is only, that they have the Elemental Focus ability that add to DC, which all other classes that did so in 3.0 don't have anymore... so it's kinda obvious, that they should lose that ability and replace it with plus to caster level instead.

However, this would make their Elemental Penetration ability kinda "useless", as this is included in a plus to caster level and this should be replaced by something else.

I suppose Complete Arcane will show a highly altered revision of this PrC (along the lines of the Incantatrix, in terms of how much changed).

This class is currently not on one playing field with the other 3.5 arcane PrC.

As a sidenote, I don't really have a problem with that, personally, we even changed Spell Focus back to 3.0, since we think they have gone a bit too far with the changes (dropped Greater Spell Focus, tho - so you cannot get higher than +2, just only need one, not two feats to get there).

Bye
Thanee


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## Zhure (May 1, 2004)

James McMurray said:
			
		

> Other advantages include being able to cast undetected by anyone around you, nd being agble to cast while grappled or held. Innate still and silent is definitely a big benfit in the psion's favor. Being able to completely hide a manifestation with a DC 15 check is also a huge plus. Its hard for an enemy to attack the guy that is energy balling them if they don't know who he is.




That's true to a point. Just because there's no manifestation doesn't mean it's a completely invisible attack source, either. It's still obvious a psion is manifesting (else he'd never provoke an AoO). So the still/silent aspects of psionics is nice but not overwhelmingly nice. Grappling and being held still requires a concentration check to manifest.

Greg


----------



## Zhure (May 1, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Uhm... let's see... how about Grapple? Stealth?




Stealth is tough for a psion to achieve, since he doesn't get real invisibility and doesn't have the stealth skills to make it work. Even with Camouflage he's going to be pretty obvious on the field of combat.

Negating the display just makes him not stand out like a sore thumb. As I noted in a prior post, he's still obviously manifesting or there'd be no AoO.

Grappling it's a small advantage. Verbal-only spells can be cast in a grapple and there's quite a few of those, even without taking Still Spell. Manifesting, like casting, in a grapple requires a concentration check. 

Just like I said before, it's mostly useful in a silence field. yay.




> It's weaker than the hypothetical four feats, but much stronger than nothing!




Yes, it's nice, but clearly not worth four feats as you've been saying.




> I'd still pick the Energy Missile and do lightning or sonic damage instead.




The sonic effect does 2.5 points per die. At 10th level it's 25 points. 
Melf's at the same level does 15 with no save and no SR check, albeit spread over a number of rounds. Of course, spreading it out over rounds is useful as it forces concentration checks among casters/manifesters.

I think Energy Missile is a strong 2nd level power, but not necessarily stronger than a lot of 2nd level arcane spells. Invisibility, for example, or Melf's is comparable in power if not more powerful.



> In fact, yes. DC is relevant on every single manifestation. Globe of Invulnerability maybe in 1% of those (if numbers are that high even).




Except on those powers/spells that don't have Power/Spell Resistance. Like Melf's. Globe of Invulnerability would stop darn near 100% of the effects we're talking about.



> Nice list, now make the other? And no I won't do that, I'm not crazy enough to write down the hundreds of abilities you would get access to this way...




How about one? Just one? I mean the whole "medusa" thing doesn't fly with me. I've already shown how a low-level arcanist can defeat it. Keep in mind the DCs of the effect will be low, since a Psion tends to have CHA as a dump stat. 

This is what I've been talking about when I'm referring to an opportunity cost to get the feat. The Psion needs 1- a Wis 13+, 2- an Int 14+ (to be able to manifest metamorphasis), 3- a Cha 14+ (to make the save DC worthwhile), 4- a feat to know metamorphasis and 5- a feat to know metamorphasis transfer. 

This is why comparing the ability in a hypothetical vacuum doesn't give a complete picture. We ignore everything the character has to give up to gain this admittedly strong ability.




> Uhm... what are we comparing again?
> 
> I just stated Astral Construct, because the psion could get that (instead of MT, which would be pretty dumb, really, as MT is like 10 times as powerful), if he wanted, but the comparison is not with AC.
> 
> ...


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## Zhure (May 1, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Facing a psion with closed eyes isn't going to be fun. You cannot even listen where he is!




I'm not following as to why. Is the Psion expending more power points to control sound?  Has he shelled out a lot of cross-class skills for Move Silently? He might be manifesting without an audible display but he's still a valid target for a listen check. 

The wizard has just as many points in Listen as the psion has in Move Silent so it's a 50-50 miss chance just like I said.


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## James McMurray (May 1, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> The "problem" is only, that they have the Elemental Focus ability that add to DC, which all other classes that did so in 3.0 don't have anymore... so it's kinda obvious, that they should lose that ability and replace it with plus to caster level instead.
> 
> However, this would make their Elemental Penetration ability kinda "useless", as this is included in a plus to caster level and this should be replaced by something else.
> 
> ...



How much benefit does the effect give? If it is just +1 DC, then it is the sme as the Red Wizard's Tattoo Focus in the DMG, and thus balanced with the other example of a highly specialized PrC.


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## James McMurray (May 1, 2004)

> That's true to a point. Just because there's no manifestation doesn't mean it's a completely invisible attack source, either. It's still obvious a psion is manifesting (else he'd never provoke an AoO). So the still/silent aspects of psionics is nice but not overwhelmingly nice. Grappling and being held still requires a concentration check to manifest.



AoOs are not caused because you see someone do something. They are caused by a lapse in concentration. Undetectable manifestations cause AoOs, but it is not because the guy says "wow, he just energy cone'd me" its because your concentration slips and allows one of the many thrusts and slashes past your gaurd.

Grapplng and held doe still require concentration, but the psion can manifest any power in that situation The other spellcasters must use verbal only spells, and must use silent spells once they are pined. This is indeed a huge benefit to a psion. Of course you still won't want to be grappled, but if you are you've got a lot ore options available to you.



> How about one? Just one? I mean the whole "medusa" thing doesn't fly with me. I've already shown how a low-level arcanist can defeat it.



A Choker's quicknes ability allow the psion something a wizard annot get without shapechange: 3.0 haste. A beholder's antimagic ray will turn the party fighters into gods when facing sdown spellcasters. 



> 1- a Wis 13+, 2- an Int 14+ (to be able to manifest metamorphasis), 3- a Cha 14+ (to make the save DC worthwhile), 4- a feat to know metamorphasis and 5- a feat to know metamorphasis transfer.



1- A character wanting Psionic Meditation will already have Wis 13. 
2- All psions will have high int, thus it is a non-factor. 
3- DC is not a factor in the abilities I cited above, nor in many other abilities. This is a non-factor.
4- Egoists get Metamosphosis without a feat, nd metamorphosis aloneis worthy of a feat. This is a non-factor.
5- You mean I have to spend a feat to create an antimagic cone? Or get 3.0 haste? Sounds like a great trade to me. 



> DC = 10+ Cha mod + 1/2 caster level. At best we're looking at around a DC 27 at 20th level. Assuming base CHA 18 and a cloak of charisma +6. Except the cloak won't work while metamorphed, so we're back to DC 24. Not many psions will have a CHA 18.



The most powerful effects to gain from this are not offensive in nature. A Psion will already have plenty of offense without spending a feat on getting more.



> I'd be interested in seeing the spell to help determine why it would be so 'overpowering.' As I mentioned before, I suspect either the duration or the casting time wasn't the same as Summon Monster.



The spell gave access to all of the creature's spell-like abilities, including teleport without error at will.


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## Zhure (May 1, 2004)

James McMurray said:
			
		

> AoOs are not caused because you see someone do something. They are caused by a lapse in concentration. Undetectable manifestations cause AoOs, but it is not because the guy says "wow, he just energy cone'd me" its because your concentration slips and allows one of the many thrusts and slashes past your gaurd.




Yes, but the power itself isn't invisible. A crystal shard still travels from the psion to the target, the energy missile still comes from the psion. There are a few powers whose manifestation is directly tied to the power itself, and those would be masked by making the concentration check, like leechfield, for example.



> A Choker's quicknes ability allow the psion something a wizard annot get without shapechange: 3.0 haste. A beholder's antimagic ray will turn the party fighters into gods when facing sdown spellcasters.




Three times per day at the cost of a feat? Ok, doesn't seem terribly overpowerful even at the earliest available at ninth level. It's not weak by any stretch of the imagination, but I don't find it overpowering.



> 1- A character wanting Psionic Meditation will already have Wis 13.
> 2- All psions will have high int, thus it is a non-factor.
> 3- DC is not a factor in the abilities I cited above, nor in many other abilities. This is a non-factor.
> 4- Egoists get Metamosphosis without a feat, nd metamorphosis aloneis worthy of a feat. This is a non-factor.
> 5- You mean I have to spend a feat to create an antimagic cone? Or get 3.0 haste? Sounds like a great trade to me.




1- But a high stat here, means a weaker stat somewhere else, like Con, Dex or Cha.
2- See #1.
3- The DC is important for a lot of abilities. If the psion wants an 'offensive' usage he once again has to bump another stat. See #1.
4- As a result the Egoist gives up access to a lot of good powers, some of which will require a feat to learn. Vice-versa for Shapers who want metamorphasis transfer.
5- Yes, as part of a sort of 'feat chain.' It takes a stack of abilities to get there. One or more feats, a relatively high Wis, probably a relatively high Cha. 

Unlike a wizard, being an invisible, flying, death-from-above machine requires a lot more expenditure of character resources. That's why I say that building a character to exploit Metamorphasis Transfer highlights some of the downside of this tactic. 



> The spell gave access to all of the creature's spell-like abilities, including teleport without error at will.



That alone might've been enough to nerf it since summoned monsters in 3.5 can't use teleportational abilities.

Greg


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## James McMurray (May 1, 2004)

The Egoist gives up no mre than any other race.

You may think that having an antimagic cone 3/day at 10th level is not nbalanced, but try allowing it into a campaign and then having a BBEG be a cleric, a psion, or a wizard. Three rounds without magic will kill any spellcaster, esecially when an entire party is laying into him



> 1- But a high stat here, means a weaker stat somewhere else, like Con, Dex or Cha.
> 2- See #1.
> 3- The DC is important for a lot of abilities. If the psion wants an 'offensive' usage he once again has to bump another stat. See #1.
> 4- As a result the Egoist gives up access to a lot of good powers, some of which will require a feat to learn. Vice-versa for Shapers who want metamorphasis transfer.
> 5- Yes, as part of a sort of 'feat chain.' It takes a stack of abilities to get there. One or more feats, a relatively high Wis, probably a relatively high Cha.



1- Yep. But the psion is likely to already want that stat, meaning it is a nonissue. If the character in question is a Psychic Warrior, he wil already have #1, and be able to disregard #2.
2- Please. All psions will have an int of at least 15 by the time they can manifest 10th level powers. If you are a Psychic Warrior instead, you get to use wisdom.
3- As I said, DC is immaterial. Psions have enough offense without metmaorphic transfer. This feat is not an offensive feat (except in the way that antimagic cones and quickness are offensive). DCs are completely irelevant when discussing the balance of this feat.
4- Every single psion subclass gies up access to specific powers, and regains access to them via Expanded Knowldge (takable with class bonus feats).
5- What feat chain? What "high abilities"? You need a wisdom of 13+, that you probably would have had anyway. You need an intelligence of 15+, which you are gauranteed to have had anyway. Charisma is immaterial, I believe you will find that there are few (if any) supernatural abilities with DCs anywhere near as powerful as what a psion can do when his level equals the creature's hit dice.

If you want to use the feat for offense, just be a wilder. You'll even get to wild surge to take the form of higher hit dice creatures, gaining access to better and more diversified abilities.


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## Thanee (May 2, 2004)

Zhure said:
			
		

> It's still obvious a psion is manifesting (else he'd never provoke an AoO).




Erm, that's not really how AoO are supposed to work.

The reason why you provoke an AoO is not, that you do something obvious, like manifesting/spellcasting, it's completely irrelevant, if that can be detected or not.

The reason for an AoO is, that you stop defending yourself (since you have to concentrate), something which is generally assumed to happen automatically, and once you let your guard down, your opponent can get more attacks in... hence the AoO.

That's really just a sidenote, tho.



> ...overwhelmingly nice...




Nice term. 



> Grappling and being held still requires a concentration check to manifest.




Same for spellcasting... just that they are limited to spells with no somatics and they need to go fishing for material components, which wastes valuable actions. With pinning, even verbal components can be prevented.

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (May 2, 2004)

Zhure said:
			
		

> Yes, it's nice, but clearly not worth four feats as you've been saying.




Me !? You compared it with four feats (which I explained noone gets, so the comparison is pointless), not me.



> I think Energy Missile is a strong 2nd level power, but not necessarily stronger than a lot of 2nd level arcane spells. Invisibility, for example, or Melf's is comparable in power if not more powerful.




Erm, you have noticed, that the power can affect five targets at once?



> How about one? Just one? I mean the whole "medusa" thing doesn't fly with me. I've already shown how a low-level arcanist can defeat it.




By closing his eyes and becoming incapable to deal with the psion? Yeah, right! 

As I said... sound tactic (that wasn't really meant seriously, yaknow ).



> Keep in mind the DCs of the effect will be low, since a Psion tends to have CHA as a dump stat.




Only the ones that do not plan to pick up that feat... 

And I'm quite certain, that Str is the number one dump stat for psions, as it is for arcane spellcasters.



> This is what I've been talking about when I'm referring to an opportunity cost to get the feat. The Psion needs 1- a Wis 13+, 2- an Int 14+ (to be able to manifest metamorphasis), 3- a Cha 14+ (to make the save DC worthwhile), 4- a feat to know metamorphasis and 5- a feat to know metamorphasis transfer.




Yeah. But that seems reasonable enough to me, not really hard to achieve.



> DC = 10+ Cha mod + 1/2 caster level. At best we're looking at around a DC 27 at 20th level. Assuming base CHA 18 and a cloak of charisma +6. Except the cloak won't work while metamorphed, so we're back to DC 24. Not many psions will have a CHA 18.




That seems like a pretty good DC to me, given the fact how low save DCs are in 3.5.



> I'd be interested in seeing the spell to help determine why it would be so 'overpowering.' As I mentioned before, I suspect either the duration or the casting time wasn't the same as Summon Monster.




Well, it's just as polymorph but allows you to change into any evil outsider from the summon monster I - V (was VI) list (3.0) for 1min/lvl, and gain all abilities (extraordinary, spell-like, supernatural).

I was just pointing out, that obviously WotC saw the need to nerf this spell, since having the abilities yourself is just plain better than having something summoned, which does, since the spell does grant you the same abilities that summon monster VI would grant (indirectly) as well.

It was just an example to clarify my point, that is exactly that... having an ability is better than having someone have the ability.

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (May 2, 2004)

Zhure said:
			
		

> The wizard has just as many points in Listen as the psion has in Move Silent so it's a 50-50 miss chance just like I said.




Maybe you would want to read those rules again?

And it's really hard to listen something, that does not make any sound, since there are no verbal or somatic components.

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (May 2, 2004)

James McMurray said:
			
		

> How much benefit does the effect give? If it is just +1 DC, then it is the sme as the Red Wizard's Tattoo Focus in the DMG, and thus balanced with the other example of a highly specialized PrC.




It's much higher... up to +3 at 8th level.

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (May 2, 2004)

Zhure said:
			
		

> Three times per day at the cost of a feat?




Three times per day for EVERY 7 (or later 6) PP spent!

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (May 2, 2004)

James McMurray said:
			
		

> Charisma is immaterial, I believe you will find that there are few (if any) supernatural abilities with DCs anywhere near as powerful as what a psion can do when his level equals the creature's hit dice.




He's referring to my medusa example, which allows flesh to stone! You can do that at the minimum level required for MT + Metamorphosis.

Bye
Thanee


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## kitoy (May 2, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Three times per day for EVERY 7 (or later 6) PP spent!
> 
> Bye
> Thanee




XPH, pg. 48: "You gain only three uses of the metamorphic ability per day . . ."

This feat could use some clarification, I'll grant you that.  But if I'm reading this correctly, you can only use the Metamorphic Transfer feat three times per day.  If that isn't the case, I would probably try it out in play for a while, then house rule an appropriate limit.


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## Thanee (May 2, 2004)

The limit is obviously placed on the form you have, not bound to the feat. So every time you assume a new (even if it is the same) form, you gain another three uses.

Bye
Thanee


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## Zhure (May 2, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Me !? You compared it with four feats (which I explained noone gets, so the comparison is pointless), not me.






			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> Please keep in mind, that psions have the effects of all the following metamagic feats built in their powers for free!
> 
> Eschew Materials (ok, general )
> Silent Spell
> ...






> Erm, you have noticed, that the power can affect five targets at once?




Yes, it's a nice power.



> By closing his eyes and becoming incapable to deal with the psion? Yeah, right!




Closing your eyes negates the gaze attack and the arcanist would act as if blind. Blind characters are treated as if everything is invisible. Invisibility grants full concealment. True Strike neutralizes any concealment. So does fireballing, and a host of other tactics.




> Well, it's just as polymorph but allows you to change into any evil outsider from the summon monster I - V (was VI) list (3.0) for 1min/lvl, and gain all abilities (extraordinary, spell-like, supernatural).
> 
> I was just pointing out, that obviously WotC saw the need to nerf this spell, since having the abilities yourself is just plain better than having something summoned, which does, since the spell does grant you the same abilities that summon monster VI would grant (indirectly) as well.




Then it seems the duration was the real sticking point.

edit- format


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## Zhure (May 2, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Maybe you would want to read those rules again?
> 
> And it's really hard to listen something, that does not make any sound, since there are no verbal or somatic components.




Regardless of the veiled _ad hominem_ going on there, I'll point out that being blind and hitting a target that's not spellcasting is 50-50, assuming equal ranks in Listen (for the attacker) and Move Silent (for the defender).

Greg


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## Zhure (May 2, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> The limit is obviously placed on the form you have, not bound to the feat. So every time you assume a new (even if it is the same) form, you gain another three uses.
> 
> Bye
> Thanee




Metamorphic Transfer, page 48.
"You gain only three uses of the metamorphic ability per day...."

and

"Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time you gain one additional supernatural ability."

I suppose it could be interpreted to being three uses per manifestation of metamorphasis, and if that's the case then yes, it is terribly overpowering. As I interpret the feat the user gains three Su abilities per day, based on the limitations of metamorphasis. Three gaze attacks, three breath weapons, or any combination of the above not to exceed three. Additional purchases of the feat give one more Su usage per day.

Greg


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## James McMurray (May 2, 2004)

Additional purchses of the feat give you an additional supernatural ability of the form, not an additional use, otherwise the word "use" would probably appear in the special claus at some point.

While the feat would be more balanced if it were only 3 / day, that is not how it reads. The languages parses out very specifically. Whether it was intended to allow any number of (Su) abilities per day, but only 3 uses of each specific ability is unknown, but a it is written it works like this:

You metamorphosis into a creature, we'll say a beholder. You use his antmagic cone for three rounds, and then metamorphosis into another creature, perhaps a choker. You use his quickness for three rounds, and then turn into a beholder again. As you have already used the (Su) ability of anti-magic cone, you cannot us it again that day, but you can take the (Su) ability of eye rays and use them 3 times.

If you take the feat twice, then every creature you transform into grants you two (Su) abilities, each of which is usable 3 times per day.


----------



## Thanee (May 2, 2004)

> Please keep in mind, that psions have the effects of all the following metamagic feats built in their powers for free!
> 
> Eschew Materials (ok, general )
> Silent Spell
> ...




Ok, and now tell me where I said, that it's worth four feats?



> Closing your eyes negates the gaze attack and the arcanist would act as if blind. Blind characters are treated as if everything is invisible. Invisibility grants full concealment. True Strike neutralizes any concealment.




Yeah, but it does not negate the need to target.



> So does fireballing, and a host of other tactics.




Even fireballs need targets.

Blind magicians cannot target spells!
Because they cannot see where to target them.

And the listen check is a wee bit more difficult due to that small +20 modifier you get.



> Then it seems the duration was the real sticking point.




*LOL*



> Regardless of the veiled ad hominem going on there, I'll point out that being blind and hitting a target that's not spellcasting is 50-50, assuming equal ranks in Listen (for the attacker) and Move Silent (for the defender).




It's not.

"A listen check, which beats the DC by 20..."

That's what I meant you should read again... the roll is modified by 20, so not even close to being 50-50. More like 5-95.



> Metamorphic Transfer, page 48.
> "You gain only three uses of the metamorphic ability per day...."




How about the rest of the sentence? Or the stuff that is said before that?

Bye
Thanee


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## Zhure (May 3, 2004)

James McMurray said:
			
		

> Additional purchses of the feat give you an additional supernatural ability of the form, not an additional use, otherwise the word "use" would probably appear in the special claus at some point.
> 
> While the feat would be more balanced if it were only 3 / day, that is not how it reads. The languages parses out very specifically. Whether it was intended to allow any number of (Su) abilities per day, but only 3 uses of each specific ability is unknown, but a it is written it works like this:
> 
> ...




The feat reads pretty clearly you get three uses per day. 

"You gain only three uses of the metamorphic ability per day...."

The metamorphic ability is the metamorphic feat.

It's a poorly worded feat and I can see how one might reach the erroneus conclusion it's three per manifestation of a metamorphasis ability, but I'm sure that's not the designers' intent.

Greg


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## Zhure (May 3, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Ok, and now tell me where I said, that it's worth four feats?




Page 9 is where that text is cropped from.



> Yeah, but it does not negate the need to target.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That's to pinpoint the target's exact square. The normal check to determine approximate location (which is usually sufficient for a fireball) is a DC 0. DMG page 295.

We're also assuming the wizard doesn't have blindfighting (which is rare), a familiar boosting his listen check (very common), or a mirror to avoid the gaze effect entirely (dirty cheap, but not as common as in earlier editions).




> How about the rest of the sentence? Or the stuff that is said before that?




Metamorphic Transfer [Psionic]
You gain a supernatural ability of a metamorphed form.
*Prerequisite*: Wis 13, Manifester level 5th.
*Benefit*: Each time you change your form, such as through the _metamorphasis_ power, you gain one of the new form's supernatural abilities, if it has any.
You gain only three uses of the metamorphic ability per day, even if the creature into which you metamorph has a higher limit on uses. For instance, if you gain a dragon's breath weapon, you can use that ability only three times before losing access to the ability for they day. (You are still subject to the other restrictions on the use of the ability. For example, after you use a dragon's breath weapon, you can't use it again for 1d4 rounds.) The save DC to resist a supernatural ability gained through Metamorphic Transfer (if it is an attack) is 10+your Cha modifier + 1/2 your Hit Dice.
*Normal*: You cannot use the supernatural abilities of creatures whose form you assume.
*Special*: You gain this feat multiple times. Each time you can gain one additional supernatural ability.[/QUOTE]

Three uses per day. Seems pretty clear to me.

Greg


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## Zhure (May 3, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Energy Substitution in general only applies to "energy" type spells. Of course it's best for the kineticist, but even only one such power grants the complete flexibility (which is huge - it's roughly five powers in one this way - or one power + four feats)!




Found a clearer reference


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## Thanee (May 3, 2004)

Zhure said:
			
		

> The feat reads pretty clearly you get three uses per day.
> 
> "You gain only three uses of the metamorphic ability per day...."
> 
> The metamorphic ability is the metamorphic feat.




If that would be the case, the feat would say (roughly), that you grant three uses per day of this feat, even if the creature you polymorph into has unlimited uses of that feat. 

No, sorry, but "metamorphic ability" can only mean the supernatural ability you gain during metamorphosis... referencing the one from the part before the one you quoted there.

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (May 3, 2004)

Zhure said:
			
		

> That's to pinpoint the target's exact square. The normal check to determine approximate location (which is usually sufficient for a fireball) is a DC 0. DMG page 295.




What I am referring to is the targeting itself. Yes, you would know where to place an area spell, don't deny that, but you cannot do so, unless you open your eyes. You cannot target the spell unless you can see the target. With the fireball that would be the point, where you want it to explode.

Note, that I am not 100% sure, whether you actually need to target an area spell like that. It's clear for spells, where you have to decide on specific targets, but the area spell might work without seeing, tho I think you need to target it to the center of origin.

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Thanee (May 3, 2004)

Zhure said:
			
		

> Found a clearer reference




That still doesn't say, that you gain 4 feats. It still says, that it's roughly equal to the effect of said feats (see your other quote above, which is clearer on that - that one refers to it), which is a huge difference.

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Thanee (May 3, 2004)

Let me highlight a few parts for you...



			
				Zhure said:
			
		

> Metamorphic Transfer [Psionic]
> You gain a supernatural ability of a metamorphed form.
> *Prerequisite*: Wis 13, Manifester level 5th.
> *Benefit*: *Each time* you change your form, such as through the _metamorphasis_ power, you gain one of the new form's supernatural *abilities*, if it has any.
> ...






> Three uses per day. Seems pretty clear to me.




So, how can you say "ability" refers to the supernatural ability and to Metamorphic Transfer about half of the time each?

To recap:


> The metamorphic ability is the metamorphic feat.




Also note, that the last part doesn't say you gain more uses per day, so even if you had the feat twice (in your interpretation) would only allow you to use any abilities a total of three times per day!

No, it's clearly meant to be the supernatural ability you gained, which is restricted to 3/day, and that (or any other) "3/day ability" is gained each and every time you transform ("Each time you change your form ...").

I admit, that the feat is poorly worded (and poorly designed as well), but that part is really pretty clear.

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Zhure (May 3, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> What I am referring to is the targeting itself. Yes, you would know where to place an area spell, don't deny that, but you cannot do so, unless you open your eyes. You cannot target the spell unless you can see the target. With the fireball that would be the point, where you want it to explode.
> 
> Note, that I am not 100% sure, whether you actually need to target an area spell like that. It's clear for spells, where you have to decide on specific targets, but the area spell might work without seeing, tho I think you need to target it to the center of origin.
> 
> ...




PHB, page 176. You only need to be able to see the target of targeted spells. It lists Charm Person as an example. Rays are treated as missile attacks, and as such can be targeted while blind, with the appropriate miss chance.

Thus our eyes-closed arcanist could use Melf's but not magic missile. Area spells would be easily used.

Greg


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## Zhure (May 3, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> So, how can you say "ability" refers to the supernatural ability and to Metamorphic Transfer about half of the time each?




Noting that as a psionic feat Metamorphic Transfer is itself a supernatural ability would only further confuse the issue.

Yes, it's a poorly worded feat but the sentence structure is very clear when it says you gain only three uses per day.


----------



## Thanee (May 3, 2004)

Zhure said:
			
		

> Thus our eyes-closed arcanist could use Melf's but not magic missile. Area spells would be easily used.




Ok.

So, once you have pinpointed the psion (which is not as easy as you said, because of the +20 modifier), you can use ray spells, which have a great chance to miss, or you could use area spells (without pinpointing probably, a rough estimate would be good enough here).

Now, don't you feel, that this is quite a bit of a disadvantage?

Yes, you won't be turned to stone, but with that disadvantage, you will surely lose the combat anyways, unless you have a number of area spells ready, which could save you then (of course, if the psion is close to you, you might hit yourself with them, too ).

Anyways, this is just one example, I was only going to point out, that your "closing eyes tactic" isn't really that great in the end. I'm pretty sure you see some problems there, too. It might work (not saying, that it never will), but it still leaves you in a very bad position.

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Thanee (May 3, 2004)

Zhure said:
			
		

> Noting that as a psionic feat Metamorphic Transfer is itself a supernatural ability would only further confuse the issue.




That would actually change nothing, it's clear which SA is referenced there.

"The metamorphic ability" obviously means "The ability you gain by metamorphing (changing form)".



> Yes, it's a poorly worded feat but the sentence structure is very clear when it says you gain only three uses per day.




Indeed.

Each and every time you change form you gain one SA, which you can use 3/day.



> You only gain three uses of *THE* metamorphic ability per day.




This can only refer to the supernatural ability you gain through the (every!) use of that feat, which is talked about in the sentence before the quoted one. And since you gain one such ability _each time_ you change form, you also gain three uses, _each time_ you do so.

Yes, the sentence structure is indeed very clear.

Unless you read the sentence that talks about the limit out of context of the previous sentence, it can only be read this way. And even if you do, it has no meaning at all, since "the metamorphic ability" has no reference.

Bye
Thanee


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## Zhure (May 3, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> So, once you have pinpointed the psion (which is not as easy as you said, because of the +20 modifier), you can use ray spells, which have a great chance to miss, or you could use area spells (without pinpointing probably, a rough estimate would be good enough here).
> 
> Now, don't you feel, that this is quite a bit of a disadvantage?
> 
> ...




Since you already know the psion's location when he metamorphasized, the first round of pinpointing isn't probably necessary. We ignore all the ways around gaze attacks (bat familiar? Reflective surfaces? Summoned Xorn attacking it for you) and we ignore all the spells that negate concealment or make it moot (true strike? area spells?) then sure it's a bad tactic to close one's eyes. I have seen closing eyes to avoid gaze attacks done in actual play with actual characters vs actual monsters and it works fine. It's no more difficult than dealing with an invisible foe; most of the same methods work for both cases.

This again emphasizes why analyzing an ability without building a character to exploit it misses out on so much. We don't know what the wizard is capable of in this case because it's all theoretical as to his gear, feats, spells, stats and so forth. It comes down to 'am-not, am-too' reasoning.

Greg


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## Zhure (May 3, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Each and every time you change form you gain one SA, which you can use 3/day.





"Each time you change your form, such as through the metamorphasis power, you gain one of the new form's supernatural abilities, if it has any."

Thus, you can pick one supernatural ability per form that you might use. A medusa has only one supernatural ability, its gaze.

"You gain only three uses of the metamorphic ability per day, even if the creature into which you metamorph has a higher limit on uses."

Limited to three times per day. Sentence 1 says you gain them each time you change form; sentence 2 says only three per day. Two logical extrapolations exist:

1- you can change into a creature and gain a single supernatural ability, but can only use it 3 times, then you can metamorph again, and gain it three more times.

or
2- you can only use this feat for three uses per day.

I know which way makes far more sense from a balance perspective and as extrapolated from similar epic abilities (for the shifter) and the feat from Savage Species, which works an unlimited time per day but only with one form-specific Su ability. Clearly answer two makes more sense.

It could be argued that the first interpretation is not only far more liberal but far more powerful. Picking an interpretation that is the most abusive then declaring the feat abusive based on that interpretation is probably faulty logic.

Greg


----------



## Thanee (May 3, 2004)

Zhure said:
			
		

> We ignore all the ways around gaze attacks.




Nope, I don't ignore anything, I just state, that you are at a disadvantage then.



> This again emphasizes why analyzing an ability without building a character to exploit it misses out on so much. We don't know what the wizard is capable of in this case because it's all theoretical as to his gear, feats, spells, stats and so forth. It comes down to 'am-not, am-too' reasoning.




Yeah, that's why I try to state only very general stuff normally.

As I said multiple times already, examples mean very little, except to illustrate a point, that's why I normally do not argue based on examples.

As an example, I state MT is broken, since you gain access to hundreds of powerful supernatural abilities this way (illustrated by three examples, greater invisibility, _quickness_ and turn to stone, which are all very powerful abilities). Way too much for a single feat (plus one power).

And don't say that I have started this now... 

You said a wizard could close his eyes and draw the conclusion, that MT is not broken, because one of my illustratory examples doesn't work in that case, altho it ignores the complete scenario (which you bemoan above).

Probably works like that child-play (I don't see you - you don't see me ).

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Thanee (May 3, 2004)

Zhure said:
			
		

> Sentence 1 says you gain them each time you change form; sentence 2 says only three per day.




And this is wrong. Sentence 2 refers to sentence 1, because it says "the metamorphic ability", which refers to the "supernatural ability you gain by changing form", thus sentence 2 indirectly also refers to the "each time".

The sentences simply are not independant of each other, as you claim.



> I know which way makes far more sense from a balance perspective and as extrapolated from similar epic abilities (for the shifter) and the feat from Savage Species, which works an unlimited time per day but only with one form-specific Su ability. Clearly answer two makes more sense.




Yeah, from a balance perspective, I absolutely agree, that it makes more sense.

From what is written there, it does not.

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Zhure (May 3, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> And this is wrong. Sentence 2 refers to sentence 1, because it says "the metamorphic ability", which refers to the "supernatural ability you gain by changing form", thus sentence 2 indirectly also refers to the "each time".




It more likely refers to the 'metamorphic ability' as the feat metamorphic transfer. Both include the word 'metamorphic.' I suspect this is wherein the confusion lies.



> The sentences simply are not independant of each other, as you claim.




I never made that claim. They are independent sentences, the second adding detail to the first. The first says you gain a Su ability. The second, in a new paragraph adds the detail that the feat can only be used a limited number of times.

Greg


----------



## Thanee (May 3, 2004)

Zhure said:
			
		

> It more likely refers to the 'metamorphic ability' as the feat metamorphic transfer. Both include the word 'metamorphic.' I suspect this is wherein the confusion lies.




Very much so.

Now, let's assume you are right... then please explain the whole sentence to me under the assumption, that "metamorphic ability" refers to the Metamorphic Transfer feat and not to the supernatural ability gained through the use of Metamorphic Transfer, each time you change form:

*"You gain only three uses of the metamorphic ability per day, even if the creature into which you metamorph has a higher limit of uses."*

"...a higher limit of uses" of what? The feat?



> I never made that claim.




Ok, implied. 

To explain, what I meant there...

The way you stated and explained both sentences above was:

1) says you gain one supernatural ability each time you change form.
2) says you gain a total of three uses per day of any and all abilities you gain through MT.

That's independant, because one does not refer to the other this way.

I say, that 2) means the actual ability gained in 1) and therefore, by referring to 1), 2) obviously only works for the duration of a single metamorphosis, because you gain an ability, which you can use 3/day, each time you change form.

Bye
Thanee


----------



## I'm A Banana (May 4, 2004)

I think you need to look at the spells themselves.

Wizard/Sorcerer spells, in general, are more potent than comprable Psion powers. Ditto with Cleric spells. Psions can't deal a lot of damage, heal much at all, buff their friends, call down every element imaginable, etc. They sometimes have an edge on utility spells, but meh......


----------



## James McMurray (May 4, 2004)

KM: Are you looking at the Expanded Psionics HAndbook? With only two powers a psion can deal damage equal to his level in d6 of any element he wants (if IIRC and dissolving touch grants acid).

They can't heal very well or buff others, but damage dealing is no problem. They even have a d6 per level no save no SR power at first level (range touch required).


----------



## Spatula (May 4, 2004)

Re: Metamorphic Transfer
Think about it: three times per day for a power that lasts minutes (when it's used to take the form of a creature).  That doesn't make any sense if the limit only applies to each manifestation of the power.


----------



## reiella (May 4, 2004)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> I think you need to look at the spells themselves.
> 
> Wizard/Sorcerer spells, in general, are more potent than comprable Psion powers. Ditto with Cleric spells. Psions can't deal a lot of damage, heal much at all, buff their friends, call down every element imaginable, etc. They sometimes have an edge on utility spells, but meh......




As James said, because of Elemental Damage bonus and variety, their damaging ability outperforms the Arcane spellcasters, except at oddities like Meteor Swarm.

And the Arcane get an advantage in summoning, but they're summoning stuff instead of creating an astral construct.  I'm unsure as to how the construct competes against similiar level summons [Astral Construct Level 3 versus Summon Monster 3, I know both Overchannel and Wild Surge make that comparison not as 'optimal'].


----------



## Thanee (May 4, 2004)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> I think you need to look at the spells themselves.
> 
> Wizard/Sorcerer spells, in general, are more potent than comprable Psion powers. Ditto with Cleric spells. Psions can't deal a lot of damage, heal much at all, buff their friends, call down every element imaginable, etc. They sometimes have an edge on utility spells, but meh......




Well, I did that to a degree.

I found psionic powers to be more than a match compared to similar spells.

However, they surely lack the diversity of magic and the way magic can help out teammembers.

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Thanee (May 4, 2004)

Spatula said:
			
		

> Re: Metamorphic Transfer
> Think about it: three times per day for a power that lasts minutes (when it's used to take the form of a creature).  That doesn't make any sense if the limit only applies to each manifestation of the power.




Why doesn't it make sense?

x/day is just a standard restriction, if you get limited charges.

And even if you say the limit carries over from metamorphing to metamorphing, you still would - definitely, since the limit is bound to a single ability - be able to gain multiple different powers 3/day. And in that light, it makes very little sense to do so (that is, having the limit carry over) IMHO.

Of course, it would have been better to say, that the ability is useable three times during the duration of the metamorphosis. Or that abilities gained by the feat can be used only a total of three times per day, if you pick up Zhure's wishful thinking. 

It's just not thought through and surely not playtested at all, like so much in this superficially great looking but in the end pretty badly done (IMHO) book.

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (May 4, 2004)

A compareable example for x/day.

You have a metamagic rod of extend spell, useable 3/day.

Now you get another metamagic rod of extend spell, useable 3/day.

Is the total limit still 3/day?

Bye
Thanee


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## Zhure (May 4, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Nope, I don't ignore anything, I just state, that you are at a disadvantage then.




Inversely stated, this feat grants a minor advantage to the psion. That's what feats do.



> As I said multiple times already, examples mean very little, except to illustrate a point, that's why I normally do not argue based on examples.
> 
> As an example, I state MT is broken, since you gain access to hundreds of powerful supernatural abilities this way (illustrated by three examples, greater invisibility, _quickness_ and turn to stone, which are all very powerful abilities). Way too much for a single feat (plus one power).
> 
> ...




Once the general reasoning is put forth, it'd be nice to see specific examples illustrating the point. I've yet to see any.

Detailing our example, the psion spends a standard action manifesting metamorphasis, then on a new round he spends another action to use the Su ability (in this case, the gaze effect). He can't manifest this round.

Meanwhile, our wizard sees what's going on and has two standard actions to react. It's possible he doesn't need to do anything special because he has a bat familiar, or he was planning on summoning a Xorn anyway.

Metamorphasis Transfer is a nice, flexible feat but I haven't seen any abusive or broken example of it so far that doesn't assume the opposition is witless and we're almost three hundred posts into this discussion. 

Greg


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## Zhure (May 4, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Now, let's assume you are right... then please explain the whole sentence to me under the assumption, that "metamorphic ability" refers to the Metamorphic Transfer feat and not to the supernatural ability gained through the use of Metamorphic Transfer, each time you change form:
> 
> *"You gain only three uses of the metamorphic ability per day, even if the creature into which you metamorph has a higher limit of uses."*
> 
> "...a higher limit of uses" of what? The feat?




The sentence should probably read:
"You gain only three uses of the metamorphic *feat* per day, even if the creature into which you can metamorph has a higher limit of uses *of the supernatural ability*."



> The way you stated and explained both sentences above was:
> 
> 1) says you gain one supernatural ability each time you change form.
> 2) says you gain a total of three uses per day of any and all abilities you gain through MT.




Correct.


> That's independant, because one does not refer to the other this way.
> 
> I say, that 2) means the actual ability gained in 1) and therefore, by referring to 1), 2) obviously only works for the duration of a single metamorphosis, because you gain an ability, which you can use 3/day, each time you change form.




Except they're not only in different sentences but different paragraphs.


----------



## Zhure (May 4, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> A compareable example for x/day.
> 
> You have a metamagic rod of extend spell, useable 3/day.
> 
> ...




No, because you have two metamagic rods. Normally feats cannot be taken multiple times. Metamorphic ability (unclearly) explains what the effect of taking the feat additional times has as a result.


----------



## Zhure (May 4, 2004)

James McMurray said:
			
		

> KM: Are you looking at the Expanded Psionics HAndbook? With only two powers a psion can deal damage equal to his level in d6 of any element he wants (if IIRC and dissolving touch grants acid).




For completeness's sake, I should point out that a magic missile is a superior spell than crystal shard until around 10th level, where the damage becomes comparable factoring in missing the touch attack. After that, crystal shard begins to perform better but for a mage magic missile still only takes up a 1st level slot.

It's my experience that certain spells are signature spells for casters and are 'better' than the rest of the spells of that level. For arcanists, it's magic missile. For psions, it's crystal shard.

Greg


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## Zhure (May 4, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Of course, it would have been better to say, that the ability is useable three times during the duration of the metamorphosis. Or that abilities gained by the feat can be used only a total of three times per day, if you pick up Zhure's wishful thinking.




Of course, my wishful thinking also includes the wish that 'metamorphic ability' was a standard and defined game-term. Since it isn't, then it becomes interpretive, which is where the problem arises. 

My interpretation is that as a pure editing oversight the phrase 'metamorphic ability' should've been metamorphic feat and thus eliminated this confusion. Why wouldn't it have said 'supernatural ability' if that was what was intended? Su is a defined game-term and easy to reference. The feat's lack of clarity is what's causing this confusion and I'm sure my interpretation will be very close to the errata that always accompanies new material.

Since Psionic feats, which are inherently supernatural abilities, as defined in the ExPHB are a new 'class' of feats there's sure to be modifications as the parlance expands to encompass the new ramifications. Much as we saw 'Divine' and 'Wild' feats become regularized.

Until then, I suppose an email to the sage is the only possible way to resolve the issue.
Greg


----------



## Zhure (May 4, 2004)

New tact:



			
				 the SRD 3/5 said:
			
		

> EMPOWER SPELL [METAMAGIC]
> Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half.
> Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level.




The second sentence, in a new paragraph, talks about the exceptions further de-limiting the ability granted by the feat. No one argues about 'saving throws' are not spells and 'opposed rolls' are not spells, even though the first sentence only talks about spells.

Greg


----------



## Thanee (May 4, 2004)

Zhure said:
			
		

> Inversely stated, this feat grants a minor advantage to the psion. That's what feats do.



 Yeah, absolutely. Now if the feat would be like, if you change into a medusa, you can use the turn to stone ability 3/day. But that's not how the feat works. And adding together literally hundreds of "minor advantages" becomes a bit more than a minor advantage IMHO.



> Once the general reasoning is put forth, it'd be nice to see specific examples illustrating the point. I've yet to see any.



If you say so...

 Bye
 Thanee


----------



## Thanee (May 4, 2004)

Zhure said:
			
		

> The sentence should probably read:
> "You gain only three uses of the metamorphic *feat* per day, even if the creature into which you can metamorph has a higher limit of uses *of the supernatural ability*."



 Hey, I completely agree with you there... it SHOULD read something like that, but it DOES NOT!



> Except they're not only in different sentences but different paragraphs.



 And that is of what importance to the way these two sentences interact?

 The headline (Metamorphic Transfer) is not even inside a paragraph... 

 Bye
 Thanee


----------



## Thanee (May 4, 2004)

Zhure said:
			
		

> No, because you have two metamagic rods. Normally feats cannot be taken multiple times. Metamorphic ability (unclearly) explains what the effect of taking the feat additional times has as a result.



  The comparison is between two rods and two uses of metamorphosis.

  Both create a new ability, which can be used 3/day.

  The limit doesn't carry over to the other use, just because it is a daily limit (which was, what Spatula implied up there).

 And choosing the feat multiple times does not allow you to use any such abilities 6/day total, which it probably should, if it would work like you say, but instead it grants usage of two such abilities - each 3/day, each time you change form.

  Bye
  Thanee


----------



## Thanee (May 4, 2004)

Zhure said:
			
		

> Of course, my wishful thinking also includes the wish that 'metamorphic ability' was a standard and defined game-term. Since it isn't, then it becomes interpretive, which is where the problem arises.



 "Ability" is a standard term. Metamorphic - obviously - refers to the use of metamorphosis, which is the standard (altho, not the only) way to use the feat, which is incidentaly named by the same convention.

 As a whole metamorphic ability is a supernatural ability gained by using the MT feat when metamorphing, a term used synonymously to changing form and derived from the standard method to do so for psionic characters, the power metamorphosis.



> My interpretation is that as a pure editing oversight the phrase 'metamorphic ability' should've been metamorphic feat and thus eliminated this confusion.



 Just that the sentence makes absolutely no sense then, as said above. 

 It should read something completely different, similar to what you said in the other post, but that would be a wee bit more than just an editing oversight, or not?



> Why wouldn't it have said 'supernatural ability' if that was what was intended? Su is a defined game-term and easy to reference.



 Because "ability" is enough, since it is already narrowed down to supernatural abilities in the first paragraph?



> The feat's lack of clarity is what's causing this confusion and I'm sure my interpretation will be very close to the errata that always accompanies new material.



 That might actually be the case (and an errata which completely changes how the feat works), altho I would almost bet on that they don't errata the feat at all. The 3.0 PsiHB errata has shown how "sensible" they are with that stuff. 

 It would be good, if they also explained how continuous supernatural abilities are meant to work. 

Bye
 Thanee


----------



## Thanee (May 4, 2004)

Zhure said:
			
		

> New tact:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 Yes, so?

 That's a quite different structure, since these are actually independant sentences. In our example, this is not the case.

 You still have not explained the complete sentence I have posted above, btw, instead you have posted a completely different sentence, which says what you think it should.

 Why can't you explain the sentence _as is_ in the way you see it?

 Because your explanation doesn't work, since there is no other way to read the sentence. It's crystal clear!

 Bye
 Thanee


----------



## Zhure (May 4, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Yeah, absolutely. Now if the feat would be like, if you change into a medusa, you can use the turn to stone ability 3/day. But that's not how the feat works. And adding together literally hundreds of "minor advantages" becomes a bit more than a minor advantage IMHO.




If you say so.


----------



## Zhure (May 4, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Yes, so?
> 
> That's a quite different structure, since these are actually independant sentences. In our example, this is not the case.




So it's an identical sentence structure.



> You still have not explained the complete sentence I have posted above, btw, instead you have posted a completely different sentence, which says what you think it should.
> 
> Why can't you explain the sentence _as is_ in the way you see it?




Ok, I already did by explaining the intent of the words via adding clarifying words, I shall do so again in simpler terms.



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> "You gain only three uses of the metamorphic ability per day, even if the creature into which you metamorph has a higher limit of uses."
> 
> "...a higher limit of uses" of what? The feat?




"You..." (the manifester, possessor of the feat metamorphic transfer)
"gain only three uses..." (no more than three, only three, just three)
"of the metamorphic..." (the metamorphic transfer feat)
"ability..." (not an ability score, but a supernatural ability)
"per day,..." (typically 24 hours, see your GM for day duration)
"even if the creature into which you metamorph..." (see the power)
"has a higher limit..." (more than three)
"of uses." (of uses of it's supernatural ability)


----------



## Thanee (May 4, 2004)

Zhure said:
			
		

> "You..." (the manifester, possessor of the feat metamorphic transfer)
> "gain only three uses..." (no more than three, only three, just three)



 You are watching way too much Monty Python! 



> "of the metamorphic..." (the metamorphic transfer feat)
> "ability..." (not an ability score, but a supernatural ability)
> "per day,..." (typically 24 hours, see your GM for day duration)
> "even if the creature into which you metamorph..." (see the power)
> ...



 That's the same you have written above and still doesn't explain where that referencing point for "higher limit of uses" comes from.

 So... Even if you metamorph into a creature, that has a higher limit of uses than 3/day of it's SA, you only gain three uses per day of the Metamorphic Transfer feat.

 That is what you think the sentence means?

 Bye
 Thanee


----------



## Zhure (May 4, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> The comparison is between two rods and two uses of metamorphosis.
> 
> Both create a new ability, which can be used 3/day.




Neither metamagic nor rods nor metamagic rods are new in 3.5. The special rules for taking a feat multiple times isn't new in 3.5 either. Normally have multiple iterations of an ability grants extra uses (so two metamagic rods means six uses) but feats cannot normally be taken multiple times. When they can their effects are specifically delineated in every single case. Taking weapon focus multiple times doesn't give an additional +1 to hit with the same weapon. Taking weapon specialization multiple times doesn't give +2 to damage to the same weapon. Examples abound.


----------



## Thanee (May 4, 2004)

Since you havn't noticed... the main point of the comparison is the "3/day", and how stating something is "3/day" doesn't automatically mean, that it's impossible to get around that limitation.

 Bye
 Thanee


----------



## Zhure (May 4, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> That's the same you have written above and still doesn't explain where that referencing point for "higher limit of uses" comes from.
> 
> So... Even if you metamorph into a creature, that has a higher limit of uses than 3/day of it's SA, you only gain three uses per day of the Metamorphic Transfer feat.




One supposes you're being intentionally obdurate.

No, the higher limit of uses refers to the Su of the creature. The example talks about a dragon being able to breathe more than three times per day, obviously since you can only use the Su ability gained from metamorphic transfer three times per day you cannot assume the form of a red dragon and rain breathy fire down upon your enemies as an action once every 1d4 rounds. Since you may only use metamorphic transfer three times per day, you get three breath weapons, or one breath weapon and two other Su's per day.


----------



## Zhure (May 4, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Since you havn't noticed... the main point of the comparison is the "3/day", and how stating something is "3/day" doesn't automatically mean, that it's impossible to get around that limitation.




It's not impossible to get around the limitation, but acquiring an additonal feat of metamorphic transfer clearly won't give that* ability.

edit
*that ability meaning 'doubling to six from three' the number of uses of metamorphic transfer per day.


----------



## Thanee (May 4, 2004)

Zhure said:
			
		

> One supposes you're being intentionally obdurate.



 Huh? I just spelled out what you have written above. Of course, it sounds rather weird in one sentence... which is the point I'm making, because it MAKES NO SENSE that way!



 Bye
 Thanee


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## Thanee (May 4, 2004)

Zhure said:
			
		

> It's not impossible to get around the limitation, but acquiring an additonal feat of metamorphic transfer clearly won't give that* ability.



 That's still not what the comparison is about.

 Bye
 Thanee


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## Zhure (May 4, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Huh? I just spelled out what you have written above. Of course, it sounds rather weird in one sentence... which is the point I'm making, because it MAKES NO SENSE that way!






			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> Even if you metamorph into a creature, that has a higher limit of uses than 3/day of it's SA, you only gain three uses per day of the Metamorphic Transfer feat.




You're so tantalizingly close.

It should be...


			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> Even if you metamorph into a creature, that has a higher limit of uses than 3/day of it's SA, you only gain three uses per day of *any Supernatural ability gained from* the Metamorphic Transfer feat.




As I've said before you're taking the most liberal and powerful interpretation of the feat then claiming the feat is overly powerful. Making a more reasonable interpretation of the intent of the feat brings it right back into line with most other feats.

It's akin to using the 'bucket of snails' interpretation of Whirlwind Attack as evidence that Whirlwind Attack is broken.

Greg


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## Thanee (May 4, 2004)

Hey, I already said, that it would work better that way...

 But you cannot make the jump from the written text to the stuff you now wrote without altering the sentences significantly and adding meaningful content, since if you don't, then the whole interpretation of yours is completely pointless.

 Bye
 Thanee


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## Zhure (May 4, 2004)

I don't believe the implied object of 'it's supernatural ability' is 'adding meaningful content.' It's taking a one word implied meaning and adding it's full meaning. The sentence actually sounds clunkier in English by adding the three additional words, which is why it* might've been left out.

Greg
*this being a perfect example. What does 'it' mean? In this case, 'it,' while singular refers a complex idea.


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## Thanee (May 4, 2004)

Yeah, it's really not very meaningful, if you add something, that changes the reference (from "unlimited uses of the metamorphic ability" to "unlimited uses of it's supernatural ability").

You can deny that reference, if you want to, but it doesn't make it go away.
If you run towards a rock and close your eyes, you'll still bump into it. 



> *Each time* you change your form, such as through the _metamorphosis_ power, *you gain* one of the new form's supernatural *abilities*, if it has any.
> *You gain* only *three uses of the* metamorphic *ability* per day, *even if the creature* into which you metamorph *has a higher limit on uses*.




If you look up the references from back to front... the higher limit of uses refers to the uses of the metamorphic ability, which can only mean, that the metamorphic ability is the supernatural ability of the creature you metamorphed into. Now, this metamorphic ability can only be the new form's supernatural ability you gained from the first paragraph. This ability has a 3/day limit, as the second paragraph tells us. You gain one such ability each time you change form, as the first paragraph tells us, limit included, since the second paragraph refers to the first and the limit only applies to the supernatural ability you gained when metamorphing.

The following example, using 'ability' twice in the same sentence, once referencing the "metamorphic ability" and once the "supernatural ability" is further evidence, that those are the very same 'ability'.



> For instance, if you gain a dragon's breath weapon, you can use that *ability* only three times before losing access to the *ability* for the day.




By the way...



> What does 'it' mean?



 What 'it'? There is no 'it' in the sentence... 'it' is left out, because 'it' is unnecessary, since the first part of the sentence already states 'it' ("metamorphic ability").

And again, your version of 'reading' it, is much more balanced (I probably still wouldn't allow it, even with that restriction applied, but it's _a lot_ closer), but it's simply not supported by the text, unless you completely deny what is written there and replace it or add stuff that's simply not there (which in turn leads to the restriction you are talking about).

Bye
Thanee


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## Zhure (May 5, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> The following example, using 'ability' twice in the same sentence, once referencing the "metamorphic ability" and once the "supernatural ability" is further evidence, that those are the very same 'ability'.




Or that they are not indeed the same ability. Only "three uses per day of the metamorphic ability" means only three of the metamorphic transfer. It's crystal clear. The limitations on the dragon's supernatural ability is a further sub-limitation.

Greg


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## James McMurray (May 5, 2004)

It doesn't say "only three uses per day of the metamorphic ablity" it says "of the supernatural ability". I agree with Thanee that it is worded to mean that you get 3 uses per day of every ability. I also agree with you that it is too powerful. But then again, even at three uses of the feat itself per day I'd still say its too powerful. 

A single feat should not shut down the DM's ability to use monsters with cool supernatural abilities just so he doesn't have to worry about letting his party have those abilities later.


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## Thanee (May 5, 2004)

Zhure said:
			
		

> It's crystal clear.




Once you start adding stuff and 'read' your 'mentally altered' version... sure! 

Bye
Thanee


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## glass (May 5, 2004)

I agree with Thanee: three uses of one ability per form per day.

I had a theory all cooked up about American readers vs Europeans until James McMurray came along and scuppered it.  


glass.


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## Zhure (May 5, 2004)

Metamorphic transfer is a psionic feat which makes it a supernatural ability.

Greg


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## Thanee (May 5, 2004)

Correct.

 Bye
 Thanee


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## Zhure (May 5, 2004)

James McMurray said:
			
		

> It doesn't say "only three uses per day of the metamorphic ablity" it says "of the supernatural ability".




Unless we have different editions of the Expanded Psionics Handbook I respectfully suggest you check again. According to my copy, it does indeed say "only three uses per day of the metamorphic ability."

The trouble comes from the definition of 'metamorphic ability.' 

Since 'metamorphic ability' is an undefined game term, I have interpreted it to mean 'the metamorphic transfer feat.' 



			
				the ExPsiHB said:
			
		

> Metamorphic Transfer [Psionic]
> You gain a supernatural ability of a metamorphed form.
> Prerequisite: Wis 13, Manifester level 5th.
> Benefit: Each time you change your form, such as through the metamorphasis power, you gain one of the new form's supernatural abilities, if it has any.
> You gain only three uses of the metamorphic ability(1) per day, even if the creature into which you metamorph has a higher limit on uses. For instance, if you gain a dragon's breath weapon, you can use that ability(2) only three times before losing access to the ability (3)for they day. (You are still subject to the other restrictions on the use of the ability. For example, after you use a dragon's breath weapon, you can't use it again for 1d4 rounds.)




(I have added notations for ease of reference)
If we assume 'metamorphic ability'(1) means 'supernatural ability,' and 'ability' (2) refers to the specific example of the dragon's breath (which has unlimited uses) but you can only use any dragon's breath gained through the feat three times per day. In the case of 'ability' (3) it specifically refers directly back to the example of the dragon's breath _gained through the metamorphic transfer feat._ Thus 'ability' (3) is twice a supernatural ability (granted by a psionic feat, which makes it supernatural, and is replicating a supernatural ability). 

I put forward that metamorphic ability (1) is supposed to be 'metamorphic transfer' and refer to the feat. It could be a writing error, or poor editing, or a change of the feat name during production of the book, or a simple oversight. Or perhaps the author thought his reference was so obvious he didn't need to be repetetive to be clear.

There is proof for neither assumption. Lambasting me for my position without offering refuting evidence is merely an _ad hominem_ attach of which Eric's grandmother wouldn't approve. 

If there's further proof what 'metamorphic ability' is supposed to mean, then by all means please provide it.


Greg


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## Thanee (May 5, 2004)

Zhure said:
			
		

> Unless we have different editions of the Expanded Psionics Handbook I respectfully suggest you check again. According to my copy, it does indeed say "only three uses per day of the metamorphic ability."



 Yeah.  I'm pretty sure he meant "metamorphic transfer" not "... ability" there.



> Since 'metamorphic ability' is an undefined game term, I have interpreted it to mean 'the metamorphic transfer feat.'



 Metamorphic ability is as a whole. Ability is not. There is only one kind of ability talked about in this feat, so ability can only mean that, really. Also reference are left out (the unlimited uses part), since - obviously - they all mean the very same ability, which is the supernatural ability of the creature you metamorph into, quite reasonably abbreviated to metamorphic ability.



> If we assume 'metamorphic ability'(1) means 'supernatural ability,' and 'ability' (2) refers to the specific example of the dragon's breath (which has unlimited uses) but you can only use any dragon's breath gained through the feat three times per day. In the case of 'ability' (3) it specifically refers directly back to the example of the dragon's breath _gained through the metamorphic transfer feat._ Thus 'ability' (3) is twice a supernatural ability (granted by a psionic feat, which makes it supernatural, and is replicating a supernatural ability).



 And again, you simply ignore half of what is written there, like the fourth (actually first) stating of 'ability', the part that talks about unlimited uses having no other reference, but 'metamorphic ability' in the very same sentence, etc.

 It's completely irrelevant, that a psionic feat is a supernatural ability, the ability that is addressed there is supernatural anyways, but it's actually stated in the feat description, which supernatural ability is meant here, the one you gain when metamorphing, aka the metamorphic ability.

 Bye
 Thanee


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## Zhure (May 5, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Metamorphic ability is as a whole. Ability is not. There is only one kind of ability talked about in this feat, so ability can only mean that, really. Also reference are left out (the unlimited uses part), since - obviously - they all mean the very same ability, which is the supernatural ability of the creature you metamorph into, quite reasonably abbreviated to metamorphic ability.




There several abilities talked about in that paragraph. The supernatural ability of the creature and the ability to use the feat would be the two most obvious. 



> And again, you simply ignore half of what is written there, like the fourth (actually first) stating of 'ability', the part that talks about unlimited uses having no other reference, but 'metamorphic ability' in the very same sentence, etc.




I'm not ignoring the first appearance of ability in the summary line of the feat. It's a summary line and doesn't really mean much. It does not state the user gains unlimited usage. It merely states "You gain a supernatural ability of a metamorphed form." It doesn't give any indication of unlimited, once, twice, a hundred. A parallel example would be the cleave feat which says, "you can follow through with powerful blows." Just based on that summary line (which is the same format as the metamorphic transfer line used to support the claim of unlimited uses) from cleave one might think there are infinite numbers of powerful follow throughs available. Reading the description reveals there are a limited number of uses.


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## James McMurray (May 5, 2004)

Sorry, I was going on memory and didn't have the book in front of me.

Can I ask one question (after this one  )? 

Why does it matter?

Whether the feat allows only three uses of itself per day or three uses of every supernatural ability in the universe, its still too powerful. IIRC normal metamaorphosis doesn't even grant all of the new form's (Ex) abilities. One would assume that (Su) abilities are even harder to reproduce.

Given my experiences with 3.5's Shapechange I am convinced that anything that opens up the (SU) abilities of almost all creatures is too powerful, whether it costs a feat, a spell known, a power, or all of the above.


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## Thanee (May 6, 2004)

Zhure said:
			
		

> I'm not ignoring the first appearance of ability in the summary line of the feat. It's a summary line and doesn't really mean much.




Hey, no problem, we could just drop that part. What was it again, the feat does?



> It does not state the user gains unlimited usage. It merely states "You gain a supernatural ability of a metamorphed form." It doesn't give any indication of unlimited, once, twice, a hundred.




Correct. It just states, that you gain an ability each time you change form.



> A parallel example would be the cleave feat which says, "you can follow through with powerful blows." Just based on that summary line (which is the same format as the metamorphic transfer line used to support the claim of unlimited uses)




Where did you get those unlimited uses from? They are, of course, limited.



> from cleave one might think there are infinite numbers of powerful follow throughs available.




Yeah, the limit is included in the part below. It says there, that you can use the ability (the one you gain each time you change form) 3/day.



> Reading the description reveals there are a limited number of uses.




Right. 3/day. Each time you change form.

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (May 6, 2004)

James McMurray said:
			
		

> Whether the feat allows only three uses of itself per day or three uses of every supernatural ability in the universe, its still too powerful.




Yeah, that's one of those parts Zhure doesn't really understand (IMHO, of course ).

Opening the option to gain literally hundreds of supernatural abilities is broken!

Even if it would (which it does not) only work 3/day total.

Bye
Thanee


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## Psiblade (May 6, 2004)

I would definitely rule that Metamorphic Transfer only allows three supernatural abilities per day based upon the dragon breath weapon example. However, I do think that even at 3t per day the feat is too powerful. I would want to limit the feat for any character under 12th level. I would add a BAB +7 prerequisite.

-Psiblade


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## Zhure (May 6, 2004)

I understand your reasoning Thanee, it's just flawed. 

See, I can make rude jabs ending with a smiley too. It doesn't further the discussion and I frankly tire of it.

Since you're incapable of discussing things with civility, without resorting to personal attacks, I'll just end it here.


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## Thanee (May 6, 2004)

I actually find neither the line you posted nor what I have written above to be offensive (and for the record, that line has not much to do with the discussion of the last hundred or so  posts).

If you do, I apologize, since that is not my intent.

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (May 6, 2004)

Zhure said:
			
		

> Since you're incapable of discussing things with civility, without resorting to personal attacks, ...




Now that part is just wrong... and I'm pretty sure you know that very well!

Bye
Thanee


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## Majere (May 6, 2004)

Metamorphic Transfer [Psionic]
You gain a supernatural ability of a metamorphed form.
Prerequisite: Wis 13, Manifester level 5th.
Benefit: Each time you change your form, such as through the metamorphasis power, you gain one of the new form's supernatural abilities, if it has any.
You gain only three uses of the metamorphic ability(1) per day, even if the creature into which you metamorph has a higher limit on uses. For instance, if you gain a dragon's breath weapon, you can use that ability(2) only three times before losing access to the ability (3)for they day. (You are still subject to the other restrictions on the use of the ability. For example, after you use a dragon's breath weapon, you can't use it again for 1d4 rounds.) 

How I would read it:

"Each time you change your form, such as through the metamorphasis power, you gain one of the new form's supernatural abilities, if it has any."
-- Each and everytime you change form, you gain acess to one of that forms supernatural powers, assuming it has at least one. You do not gain any if it has no super natural abilities.

"You gain only three uses of the metamorphic ability per day, even if the creature into which you metamorph has a higher limit on uses. "
(This sentance is actually gibberish and utterly unmeaningful, but my best efforts)
-- You gain three uses of the "metamorphc ability"
*The word "the" indicates reference to a preiously introduced concept, well the only such idea introduced so far as an ability would be the ability gained by changing form, therefore it must relate to that. Hense for metamorphic ability read "ability gained via use of the the metamorphic transfer feat"

- You only gain three uses of the "ability gained via the metamorphic feat" per day, even if th creature would normally be able to use the ability more often than this.

"For instance, if you gain a dragon's breath weapon, you can use that ability only three times before losing access to the ability for they day."
*note it says "acess to the ability", here the word "the" again refers to a preceeding object, in this case the breath weapon. 
ie.
-For instance, if you gain a dragon's breath weapon, you can use the super natural ability of a dragons breath weapon only three times before losing access to the ability for the day.

"(You are still subject to the other restrictions on the use of the ability. For example, after you use a dragon's breath weapon, you can't use it again for 1d4 rounds.) "
- This limit of uses per day does not supercede any other limits upon the supernatural ability's useage.For example, after you use a dragon's breath weapon, you can't use it again for 1d4 rounds, and a maximum of three times per day

That is the "literal" interpretation
Majere


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## Thanee (May 6, 2004)

So, if I got this right, you are saying, that you gain a supernatural ability each time you change form, you can use that 3/day. You can change form again after that and, even if you used the SA 3 times before, gain another ability, which you can then use 3/day, just not the same, because the 3/day limit "carries over". Right?

That's a viable interpretation (just depends how you read the 3/day limitation), I think, which I have stated (somewhere) above as well. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Psiblade (May 6, 2004)

For me the sentence "You gain only three uses of the metamorphic ability per day," limits you to exactly to 3 uses of the ability (feat) per day. The dragon example further limits the ability to no more often than the creature itself can perform the action. Breaking down the sentence into components seems to make the meaning clearer. The function of the sentence is to express limitations on the power. This limitation of using the feat 3 times per day follows and modifies the previous sentence. I do agree the sentence should be clearer, but this is the only reading that can fit game balance and sentence structure.

-Psiblade


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## Thanee (May 6, 2004)

@Psiblade: If you are really bored, read what I have written above most of the time. It should make clear why "metamorphic ability" can only mean the supernatural ability gained by changing form.

Here are some posts to check: #279 (pg. 14), #283 (pg. 15), #289, #306 (pg. 16), #320.

Bye
Thanee


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## foxylady (May 10, 2004)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> That alone is enough to really take a look at the Sorcerer's power level. Why they didn't fix them in 3.5 I'll never know. The ability to swap out spells really helped, but it's not enough.



The loss of multi-function spells (Eyebite, Symbol) in 3.5 nerfed the Sorceror far more than the Wizard. I doubt this was unforseen, but given WotC's antipathy towards the Sorceror, I don't think they cared.


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## foxylady (May 10, 2004)

Shadowdweller said:
			
		

> - Rogues?  Psions cannot be caught surprised or flat-footed (Detect Hostile Intent.  Compare this bad boy to Foresight!)



An excellent proof that Foresight is absurdly, woefully underpowered for its level.


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## Thanee (May 10, 2004)

Sidenote:

Foresight is so vague, it can easily scale from completely useless to horribly overpowered, just by interpretation.

If it only grants that +2 bonus, as a result of what has been written above in the spell's description, then it's kinda useless. If it gives that bonus in situations, where you normally cannot react, but otherwise gives you a fair warning and the ability to execute the action to prevent whatever is about to hit you (i.e. stop before you move onto a trap), then it's fairly powerful, because often such an action can prevent any harm altogether with no roll necessary.

Bye
Thanee


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## Shard O'Glase (May 10, 2004)

foxylady said:
			
		

> The loss of multi-function spells (Eyebite, Symbol) in 3.5 nerfed the Sorceror far more than the Wizard. I doubt this was unforseen, but given WotC's antipathy towards the Sorceror, I don't think they cared.




The loss of the multifunction spells was just so dumb.  Its yet another reason I'm sticking to 3.0 and adding some 3.5 rules as house rules instead of the reverse. Its not overwhelming but I just ended up with more 3.0 house rules tacked onto a 3.5 game than I did with a 3.0 game with 3.5 house rules.  In this case they should of kept in the multifunction spells and added in the separated out versions that are lower level to give a choice and not royally hose over the already hosed over sorcerer.


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