# Revised monk



## Kerrick (May 29, 2008)

The monk could have been a cool class, but instead it ended up being a bunch of disparate abilities tossed together with no thought to cohesion or logic. To be fair, it was built off the foundations of the 1E monk, but still... immunity to poison and disease? Spell resistance? Ability to speak to any living creature? Come on... where are they getting this stuff?

So, here's my effort to remake the monk. First, I needed an archetype. Martial artist worked well enough, and could be divorced from the Oriental flavor/baggage that has always seemed to weigh it down (why do martial artists HAVE to be Oriental? Just because the majority of martial arts in the real world originated in the Far East doesn't mean they have to in a fantasy world...).

With that in mind, gutted the class - all the abilities except ki strike, flurry of blows, and (imp) evasion got tossed because, quite frankly, none of them made sense, nor did they fit the archetype. Timeless body got to stay because it was kind of cool (I can see the ancient martial arts master who can still open the can of whoopass) and not overly powerful. Then, I started to rebuild it. I used some ideas my DM has been using for a new campaign - monk have different fighting styles named for the four elements and the directions. Each element has a different style, and the directions are focuses within the disciplines. I also added a combination of sun and moon, which ended up becoming two separate styles - Dawn (life/positive energy) and Twiligh (death/negative energy).

Ability focus changed from Wis to Cha (although I'm not totally set on this change...). A lot of the abilities they get are manifestations of your force of will - ki strike, for instance. I standardized the AC bonus - it's still there, but based off level instead of Wis bonus (so monk/clerics or monk/druids can't boost their Wis score and get huge bonuses); it's also a dodge bonus, instead of unnamed. Speed boost is still there, as it fits their archetype of "fast, unarmed damage dealer". The extra attack from the flurry was dropped - 5 attacks/round at 2d10 each was a bit much, IMO, but the Wind style gets an extra attack as one of their abilities. After I'd filled in everything else, I had a few dead levels left, so I tossed in some bonus feats - but spread out this time, instead of all bunched up at the bottom. Additionally, they're not free - the monk has to qualify to take them.

So here's what I've got so far. Feedback, comments, and ideas are welcome. (I put it in spoiler blocks to save space. If the ability has only a name and no description, like flurry of blows or unarmed combat, it's the same as the PHB.)


The Monk
BAB: Medium
Saves: Fort low, Ref/Will high

1: Flurry of blows, unarmed combat
2: Fighting style acolyte
3: Evasion, slow fall 20 ft.
4: Ki strike (magic)
5: Bonus feat
6: Slow fall 30 ft.
7: Wholeness of body
8: Fighting style initiate
9: Bonus feat, slow fall 40 ft.
10: Ki strike (lawful)
11: Purity of body
12: Slow fall 50 ft.
13: Bonus feat
14: Fighting style mastery
15: Rapid flurry, slow fall 60 ft.
16: Ki strike (adamantine)
17: Bonus feat
18: Slow fall 70 ft.
19: Timeless body
20: Fighting style grandmastery

[sblock]*Awareness of Self (Ex):* When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk gains a +3 dodge bonus to AC, as she is always ready to avoid any threats to her well-being. She loses this bonus when immobilized,  helpless, or unconscious, when wearing any armor or carrying a shield, or when carrying a medium or heavy load. This bonus increases at different rates different for each style, as noted below. (see Table further in the thread)

*Fighting Style:* All monks are taught how to fight. At first, it is just the basics, but when they reach 2nd level, they must choose a specific style. The styles are keyed to the elements (Air, Earth, Fire, Water) or a combination of the sun and moon; the comass points (North, East, West, South) dictate the style's focus – offense (attack bonus), defense (AC), damage, or duration (of abilities). Each style is thus named based on a combination of compass point and element – Northern Wind, for example, or Southern Mountains.

  Once a monk has chosen a fighting style, she cannot learn a new one. She can, however, choose a different compass point in the same style any time she reaches a new rank – this is simply learning a new focus in the same fighting style.

  Monks often identify themselves by name and their rank in their chosen fighting style. For instance, Jalya, a 10th level monk with the Sun (fire) style and North compass point, would be "Jalya, Initiate of the Northern Sun."

  The various fighting styles are listed below.

*Evasion (Ex):* If a monk makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes one-quarter damage. Evasion can be used only if a monk is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of evasion.

*Slow Fall (Ex):* A monk within arm’s reach of a wall can use it to slow her descent. When first using this ability, she takes damage as if the fall were 20 feet shorter than it actually is. The monk’s ability to slow her fall (that is, to reduce the effective distance of the fall when next to a wall) increases by 10 feet every three levels – 30 feet at 6th, 40 feet at 9th, etc.

*Ki Strike (Su):* At 4th level, a monk’s unarmed attacks are empowered with ki. Her unarmed attacks are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. Ki strike improves with the character’s monk level. At 10th level, her unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. At 16th level, her unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction and bypassing hardness.

*Bonus Feat:* At 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th levels, a monk can choose from a list of bonus feats specific to her fighting style (if she is trained in multiple styles, she can choose from any valid list). She must fulfill the prerequisites normally.

*Wholeness of Body (Su):* At 7th level or higher, a monk can heal her own wounds. She can heal a number of hit points equal to three times her monk level each day, and she can spread this healing out among several uses.

*Purity of Body (Ex):* Due to their diet and rigorous training, monks are more resistant to normal poisons and diseases than most people. They gain a +4 resistance bonus to saves vs. both.

*Rapid Flurry (Ex):* At 15th level, a monk can make her flurry of blows as a standard action instead of a full-round action.

*Timeless Body (Ex):* Upon attaining 19th level, a monk no longer takes penalties to her ability scores for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties that she has already taken, however, remain in place. Bonuses still accrue, and the monk still dies of old age when her time is up.
[/sblock]


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## Kerrick (May 29, 2008)

*Fighting styles*

*Basics, Mountains, and Sea*
[sblock]
  When a monk reaches 2nd level, she must choose a fighting style, a method of unarmed combat in which she has been trained.

  Each time she gains a new rank, she can choose to begin training in a new style; she must spend a week training under a master in the new style, whereupon her rank in the new style is automatically set to Initiate (due to the training she has already received in her first style). Each time she gains a new rank, she can choose an ability from either style (but not both). A monk cannot train in more than two styles, nor can she train in Mountain and Wind, or Sun and Sea styles at the same time – they are sufficiently different that most monks cannot accommodate both styles in their training.

  When calculating AC bonus from the Awareness of Self ability and fast movement, use the higher bonus. For example, a monk trained in both Mountain and Sun styles would use the Mountain style AC bonus and Sun Style movement rate.

*Compass Points*

The compass points represent different aspects of a given fighting style. A monk isn't limited to using just one; she can switch between them each round as a free action, going on offense for a few rounds, then switching to defense or concentrating on dealing more damage. Each is described below. 

*North:* The monk is well trained in offensive maneuvers. When fighting unarmed or with monkish weapons, she gains an insight bonus to attack rolls equal to the rank she has achieved in her fighting style.

*South:* The monk is trained in defense - not just in combat, but at all times. She gains an insight bonus to Armor Class equal to the rank she has achieved in her fighting style.

*East:* The monk is trained to exploit her enemies' weaknesses and strike at vulnerable spots. She gains a bonus to damage equal to her rank in her chosen style when fighting unarmed or with monkish weapons.

*West:* The monk is trained to focus her inner energies to protecting herself. She gains a bonus to saves equal to her rank.


*Fighting Styles*
  There are five main monkish fighting styles: Mountain, Sea, Shadow, Sun, and Wind. Each is described below.

*Mountain*
  The mountains are strong and unyielding. They have existed for thousands of years, enduring wind, water, sun, and even miners, and will remain for thousands more. This style emulates the strength of the mountains, their unyielding resolve, and their ability to withstand any kind of damage.

  Monks who practice this style gain the strength and resolve of the earth – they have a +2 bonus to Fort and Will saves. The earth, however, is slow and ponderous – they suffer a -2 penalty to Reflex saves. Additionally, half of the dodge bonus gained from the Awareness of Self ability (round down) is instead applied as DR /-. For example, a monk with a +4 AC bonus would instead have a +2 AC bonus and DR 2/-. The other half of the dodge bonus is rounded up and applied to Armor Class as normal.

  Unless otherwise noted, all abilities are usable 3 + Con bonus times per day.

*Bonus Feat List:* Diehard, Endurance, Fighting Style Ability, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Indomitable, Power Attack, Stunning Fist, Toughness.


*Acolyte*
???

_Iron Fist (Ex):_ The monk can channel her ki into her unarmed strike. She can make a single attack as a standard action, but the attack, if it hits, deals +1d6 points of damage and bypasses hardness, if she is attacking an object, or DR if she is attacking a construct. If the attack misses, that use of the ability is wasted.


*Initiate*
_Avalanche (Ex):_ The monk can rain down blows with her unarmed strike or staff on an opponent, driving it back under the force of her strength. Treat this as a bullrush attempt, but the monk gains a +1 bonus to her roll per her roll per rank in this style. This ability is usable only as part of the full attack action, but the monk can follow her opponent, if she drives him back, as part of the attack. It can be used any number of times per day.

_Temblor (Ex):_ The monk can make a strike against a solid object or living being, channeling the force of the blow through the object or creature to something behind it. This requires a full-round action, as the monk must center herself and draw upon her ki; when she strikes, she must state a target and distance (which can be up to 6 inches per level); if there is an object or creature at the stated distance that is touching the first  object or creature, it takes the full damage from the blow. If there is no target, the force travels the stated distance and explodes – most often, it blows a chunk out of the far side of the object or creature (it deals full damage in either case, bypassing hardness for objects). The first object or creature (the one through which the energy is being channeled) does not otherwise take any damage from the blow.

If the stated distance is wrong, the force is dissipated harmlessly and that use of the ability is wasted. For example, a monk could use this ability to break the ninth block in a stack of ten or damage a creature on the other side of a wall or door (assuming it is touching the wall or door). 


*Master*
_Rooted in the Earth (Ex):_ Three times per day, the monk can root herself in place, using her ki energy to attach herself to the fabric of reality. While in this stance, she gains the incredible endurance and patience of the mountains. She gains a bonus equal to half her monk level to avoid being being bullrushed, grappled, overrun, or tripped, gains DR 10/-, and is immune to pain, including spells like _symbol of pain_. She cannot move beyond making a 5-foot step each round, however, and she is limited to a single attack per round, but if it hits, it deals double damage.

_Tremorsense (Su):_ The monk can sense the presence of any creatures touching the ground, if they are anywhere within 5 feet per level. She can pinpoint their location to within 5 feet, and can determine their rough size (size category). She cannot sense incorporeal or ethereal creatures, or those in liquids or in the air. If the monk is in a building or other structure, she can only sense creatures on the same floor as she is, unless they are extremely large (DM's discretion, but Huge and larger creatures, or extremely heavy/dense creatures like golems, could be sensed on other floors). No creature moving along the ground can surprise her, as she can sense it coming.


*Grandmaster*
_Earthquake Strike (Su):_ 3 + Con bonus times per day, as a full-round action, the monk can summon her ki and strike the earth with a fist or foot. The resultant strike sends shockwaves through the ground around her out to a 30-foot radius. All creatures in the area of effect who are in contact with the ground take 3d6 points of damage, plus the monk's Strength bonus, and must make a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 monk's level + Con bonus) or be knocked prone.


*Sea*
  The sea is vast and everchanging, eternal and relentless. Water has little strength, but it has endurance and patience. Even the mightiest mountain can be worn down, eventually, by the constant passage of a river; the ocean surf pounds stone to sand. This style is designed to wear down an opponent's endurance by dealing small amounts of damage repeatedly over time; the monk fades away before his opponent's attacks, taking little damage in return.

*Bonus Feat List:* Combat Expertise, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Fighting Style Ability, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Spring Attack, Snatch Arrows.

*Acolyte*
_Flowing Waters (Ex):_ The monk suffers no penalty for fighting while prone and can regain her feet as a free action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.

_Riptide (Ex):_ If an opponent attempts to trip or disarm the monk, she can make a counterattack, even if the opponent has the Improved Disarm or Improved Trip feats. The monk cannot be flat-footed and must be able to move to use this ability.


*Initiate*
_Defensive Roll (Ex):_ The monk can roll with a potentially lethal blow to take less damage from it than she otherwise would. Three times per day, when she would be reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by damage in combat (from a weapon or other blow, not a spell or special ability), she can attempt to roll with the damage. To use this ability, she must attempt a Reflex save (DC = damage dealt) using her Wis bonus instead of her Dex bonus. If the save succeeds, she takes only half damage from the blow; if it fails, she takes full damage. She must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to execute her defensive roll - if she is flat-footed or otherwise unaware of it, she can’t use this ability. Since this effect would not normally allow a character to make a Reflex save for half damage, the monk’s evasion ability does not apply to the defensive roll.

_Water Flows Over Rocks (Ex):_ The monk gains a +4 bonus to saves against spells and effects that restrict or prohibit movement – grease, entanglement, grapple, slow, trip, web, etc.; in addition, she can move through hazardous areas that restrict movement by up to half (spike stones, e.g.) without penalty, and gains a +4 bonus to saves to avoid taking damage. If the terrain restricts movement by more than half, the monk is reduced to half her movement speed.


*Master*
_Ice Shatters Rock (Ex):_ A monk can, through repeated damage, actually wear down an object's hardness. When she hits with an unarmed strike and does damage that exceeds the object's hardness, the hardness is reduced by 1. She can reduce the hardness to half (round down) in this manner. Only one successful hit per round can be applied in this manner, though the monk can still make a full attack action. When used against something like a wall, the damage is inflicted on a 10-foot-square section only.

_Relentless Waves (Ex):_ The monk's unarmed strikes can wear down her opponent's endurance, rendering it fatigued. 3 + Wis bonus times per day, she can make an attack as a standard action; if it hits and the target fails a Fort save (DC 10 + 1/2 monk's level + monk's Wis modifier), it is fatigued for 10 minutes. Successive strikes are not cumulative.


*Grandmaster*
_Whirlpool (Ex):_ The monk can not only deflect an attack, but she can actually redirect it elsewhere. 3 + Wis bonus times per day, after the attack has been confirmed but before damage is rolled, she can choose to redirect it to strike somewhere else (another target she is aware of). A melee attack can strike any other creature or object within 5 feet; a ranged attack can strike anything within 10 feet (the monk can't redirect a ray attack). The attack uses its original roll -2, for being deflected (a natural 20 is not affected, nor are critical hits); if it hits, it deals damage normally. If there is no target within 5 or 10 feet, the attack is simply deflected and misses. The monk can also choose a target behind herself; in this case, she and her attacker end up switching places, as she moves into the attacker's space and he moves into hers to attack the new target. 

The monk must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to deflect it - if she is flat-footed or otherwise unaware of it, she can’t use this ability.[/sblock]


*Shadow, Sun, and Wind*
[sblock]
*Shadow*
  The shadows are dark and mysterious, and often hide things best left unknown. Many creatures of cruel mien and questionable moral outlook inhabit the dark.

  This style is designed to hamper an opponent's ability to fight by reducing his ability to move or be effective in combat. Monks' use of these abilities vary depending on their ethics – good-aligned monks tend to disable opponents to avoid killing them, while evil ones cripple opponents, inflicting pain and torturing them before finishing them off. On the whole, Shadow Style monks tend toward neutrality or evil.

  Unless otherwise noted, most abilities can be reversed by a monk of any style who is of equal or higher rank than the specific ability (for example, a Master can reverse the effects of a Serpent Strike). This requires a standard action and a Concentration check vs. the original Fort save DC. They cannot be used on constructs, incorporeal beings, oozes, plants, or undead.

*Bonus Feats:* Blind-Fight, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Fighting Style Ability, Improved Critical, Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Stunning Fist, Weapon Finesse.

*Acolyte*

_Pain Touch (Ex):_ As a standard action, the monk can make an unarmed strike against a nerve cluster, inflicting great pain upon the target. It takes a -2 penalty on all rolls for 1 minute per point of the monk's Int bonus. 

_Silencing Strike (Ex):_ 3 + Int bonus times per day, the monk can make an unarmed strike against a living opponent. If the attack hits (she must be able to reach the throat to strike in the proper place), the target is rendered mute for 1d4 rounds, +1 round per rank of the monk (another monk can reverse it).


*Initiate*

_Dazing Blow (Ex):_ 3 + Int bonus times per day, the monk can make an unarmed attack against an enemy. If the attack hits and deals damage, the enemy must make a Fort save (DC 10 + 1/2 the monk's level + monk's Int bonus) or be dazed for 1d4 rounds (can't take any actions).

_Shadow Strike (Ex):_ 3 + Int bonus times per day, the monk can make an unarmed strike against a living target. If the attack hits (she must be able to reach the head to strike in the proper place), the target is blinded for 1 round per level (a remove blindness spell, or another monk, can reverse it).


*Master*

_Serpent Strike (Ex):_ 3+ Int bonus times per day, as a standard action, the monk can make an unarmed strike against a living opponent; if the target fails a Fort save (DC 10 + 1/2 the monk's level + monk's Int modifier), it suffers partial paralysis - in effect, it is slowed (as the spell) for 1 round per class level. This applies even to spellcasting (unless the spell uses no verbal, somatic, or material components) – the monk is affecting the target's muscular control, including its ability to speak. Spell-like abilities, psionics, or anything that requires only the target's mind to activate can be used normally. 

 If the monk hits the same target a second time while the paralysis is in effect and the target fails the save again (at -2 this time), it is fully paralyzed for 1 round per point of the monk's Int bonus. Once that effect wears off, however, the target is free to act normally.

  This ability has no effect on incorporeal beings, oozes, plants, or creatures immune to slow or paralysis effects. The Sea Style ability Water Flows Over Rocks grants the normal bonus against this ability.

_Scorpion Fist (Ex):_ As a standard action, the monk can make an unarmed strike against an opponent's nerve cluster, disabling a limb or dealing ability damage. If the opponent is up to one size larger, she can strike at a specific limb (arm, leg, wing, etc., but not the head) taking a -4 penalty; if the attack hits, the limb has been disabled for 1 minute per point of her Cha bonus. 

  A disabled leg reduces the creature's speed and imposes a -2 penalty to Dex-based checks (movement is reduced by half if it has two legs, or by one-quarter if it has four; creatures with more than four legs are not affected by the loss of a single leg); a disabled arm limits its ability to attack and/or defend and imposes a -2 penalty to Strength-based checks (it can't make attacks with that arm, loses the benefit of a shield if applicable); a disabled wing means the creature can't fly. Disabling another limb of the same type further inhibits ability to move or attack, but does not apply further penalties.

  A monk of Master rank or higher can reverse the condition as a standard action by manipulating the nerve cluster – there is no check necessary.

  This ability cannot be used on constructs, incorporeal beings, oozes, plants, or undead, or any creature two or more sizes larger than the monk.


*Grandmaster*

_Quivering Palm (Su):_ The monk can set up vibrations within the body of another creature that can thereafter be fatal if the monk so desires. She can use this quivering palm attack once per day, and she must announce her intent before making her attack roll. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, and incorporeal creatures cannot be affected. Otherwise, if the monk strikes successfully and the target takes damage from the blow and fails a Fort save (DC 10 + 1/2 the monk’s level + monk’s Int modifier), the quivering palm attack succeeds. Only one creature can be under the effect of the quivering palm at any given time. If the saving throw is successful, the target is no longer in danger from that particular quivering palm attack, but it can still be affected by another one at a later time.

  Upon being struck, the target takes 2 points of Con damage, which cannot be healed by any means unless and until the quivering palm is negated (see below). The quivering palm's effects last for 1 day per monk level; at any point during that time, the monk can inflict another 2 points of Con damage by making a successful touch attack against the target (there is no save to avoid further damage). If the target's Con score is reduced to 0, or its hit points to its negative Con score through Con loss, it dies. If the target is still alive when the quivering palm wears off, it can regain lost Con points normally.

  Any monk of 18th level or higher can still the vibrations simply by touching the target and making a Concentration check vs. the initial Fort save DC.


*Sun*
  Fire is a wild and destructive force; if left uncontrolled, if consumes all that it touches. This style centers around the use of rapid, overwhelming force – disabling and defeating an opponent before he can strike back.

*Bonus Feat List:* Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Fighting Style Ability, Great Cleave, Improved Bullrush, Improved Overrun, Iron Will, Power Attack, Stunning Fist.


*Acolyte*
  ???

_Soul of Fire (Ex):_ The monk can enter a frenzied state similar to a barbarian's rage. In this state, she temporarily gains +2 to Strength and Dexterity. Her speed increases by 10 feet, and she can choose
to make a flurry of blows with a full attack action in melee, making one extra attack per round while suffering a -2 penalty on every attack .

  While in a frenzy the monk cannot skills or abilities that require patience or concentration, such as moving silently or casting spells. She can use any feat she might have except for Expertise, item creation feats, metamagic feats, and Skill Focus (if it's tied to a skill that requires patience or concentration). The frenzy lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the monk's Constitution modifier. The monk can prematurely end the frenzy. At the end of the frenzy, the monk is fatigued (-2 to Strength, -2 to Dexterity, can't charge or run) for the duration of that encounter. The monk can only enter a frenzy once per encounter, and only 3 + Cha bonus times per day. The monk can enter a frenzy as a free action, but only on her turn, not in response to somebody else's action.


*Initiate*
_Rushing Flames (Ex):_ The monk can rain down blows with her unarmed strike or weapon on an opponent, driving it back under the force of her strength. Treat this as a bull rush attempt, but she makes a check after each attack with a +1 bonus per 5 points of damage inflicted; a successful check drives the opponent back 5 feet. This ability is usable only as part of the full attack action, but the monk can follow her opponent, if she drives him back, as part of the attack. 

_Improved Flurry (Ex):_ The monk's flurry of blows ability improves. In addition to the standard extra single attack she gets from her flurry, she gains a second extra attack at her full base attack bonus.


*Master*

_Explosive Fury (Ex):_ 3 + Cha bonus times per day, as a standard action, the monk can make an unarmed attack against an opponent up to one size larger. If the attack hits, it deals double damage and the target must make a Strength check (DC 12 + the monk's CMB + monk's Str modifier) as if defending against a bull rush attack. If the check fails, it is knocked back 10 feet and falls prone (if it hits a solid object before reaching the distance, it strikes that and takes 1d6 damage before falling prone). Amorphous or incorporeal beings are immune to being knocked back. At Grandmaster rank, she can knock her opponent back 15 feet.

  The monk can also use this ability as the last attack in a flurry; it otherwise works as described above, but the monk doesn't gain the +2 bonus (base DC is 10 instead of 12).

_Reflect Attack (Ex):_ 3 + Cha bonus times per day, a monk of this style can actually cause a melee attack to bounce back on its source with no loss of momentum. In order to use this ability, the monk must be aware of the attack and able to react to it – he can't be flat-footed, helpless, or otherwise immobilized. Doing so uses up one of his attacks (the one using the lowest base attack bonus) for the next round.


*Grandmaster*

_Fireburst (Su):_ 3 + Cha bonus times per day as a standard action, the monk can unleash a massive burst of ki energy that drives all her opponents back 5 feet and staggers them for one round (can't take any actions, but suffer no other penalties).


Wind
  The Wind style focuses around speed, mobility, and rapid attacks. Followers of the Wind fighting style can make a greater number of attacks, but at the cost of accuracy and power. Monks with this style have a high Reflex save.

  Monks of this fighting style focus more on speed and evasion over dealing damage; as a consequence, they suffer a -1 penalty to all damage rolls (minimum 1 point per die), but the AC bonus they gain from the Awareness of Self ability is increased by +2 (see Table ##).

*Bonus Feat List:* Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Fighting Style Ability, Improved Initative, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Spring Attack, Weapon Finesse.


*Acolyte*

_???  (Ex):_ The monk can give herself a burst of speed, which lasts for 1 round per class level. The speed increase is equal to 10 feet per rank she has achieved in this style, and can be split up as the monk sees fit (i.e., she could move faster for 1 round, then later for 5 rounds, etc., as long as the total time doesn't exceed her class level).

_Leap of the Clouds (Ex):_ A monk's jumping distance (vertical or horizontal) is not limited by her height.


*Initiate*
_Improved Evasion (Ex):_ The monk’s evasion ability improves. She still takes one-quarter damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, but henceforth she takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

_Rushing Wind (Ex):_ Three times per day, the monk can attempt to avoid an attack before it lands. She must declare her intent to use this ability before the attack is made; if she makes a Reflex save (DC  = opponent's attack roll) the attack misses her as she dodges out of the way, but she uses up her move action for the round (or the next round, if she has already taken her actions this round). She can move up to 10 feet in any direction as part of the action. She must be able to see the opponent and not be flat-footed or otherwise prohibited from moving in order to avoid the attack.


*Master*
_Cloudwalk (Ex):_ As long as the monk is running (move x4 or greater), she can move over areas that wouldn't normally support her weight – rotten boards, thin tree branches, even water (but not clouds or fog). She can move thus for up to 5 feet per class level.

_Whirlwind (Ex):_ 3 + Dex bonus times per day, the monk can make a single attack at her highest base attack bonus against all opponents within her reach. She can make a 5-foot step before or during this attack. She does not gain the benefit of extra attacks from feats like Cleave or spells like haste.


*Grandmaster*
_Aspect of the Wind (Su):_ Three times per day, as a standard action, the monk can assume the aspect of the Wind – her form blurs and becomes misty (she gains concealment). She must remain moving while using this ability – if she stops or is stopped for any reason, she loses her concealment, but the ability's duration doesn't end; if she starts moving again, she regains her concealment (if she is moving or has made a move at the end of her turn, she is considered to be in motion until her next turn; if she moves again at the beginning of her next turn, she retains her concealement). She cannot make a full attack action, but she can make a single attack or any other action that requires a standard or move action.

  The monk can remain in this form for a number of rounds equal to 3 + her Dex bonus.[/sblock]


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## Sylrae (Jun 4, 2008)

I definitely think the idea of a less mystical monk(martial artist) is a good one.

I know alot of DMs who just flat out don't allow them.

I've made house rules specifically to limit certain monk prestige class combinations.

the monk could definitely use some tweakage.

I like it so far. I'll look at it closer when I get a chance this weekend.


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## Shadow Dweller (Jun 9, 2008)

The only problem with switching from Wis to Cha is you now upen up easy Sorc/Monk multiclassing.  Granted, I don't know what's worse, Cleric/Monk or Sorc/Monk...but it's still an issue to consider.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jun 10, 2008)

There is a single feat to make your monk stat charisma (Asthetic Mage, spelling's alomst certainly off) or intelligence (Kung Fu Genious, and apparantly some other one too), in each case requiring levels in the respective mage class (sorcor wiz).  So it's not a big issue, all it saves the monk/sorc is one feat over the current rules.


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## Sylrae (Jun 10, 2008)

I like it thus far. any chance you're going to fill in the missing fighting style abilities?


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## Dagredhel (Jun 10, 2008)

*Kerrick*--- I haven't had the opportunity for a detailed look yet, but plan to when I get the chance... 

Quick question:  What did you want to balance this class against?  Core, core + splatbooks, other custom (homebrewed) classes, etc?  It makes a _*big *_ difference.

At first glance, it's got great flavor and elegant organization of abilities... _*very*_ nice!

I'd have to say that you definitely accomplished one of your primary objectives.  The class does seem suitable to different settings without seeming "generic"--- too bland--- at the same time.  Good job.


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## Sylrae (Jun 10, 2008)

I want to use it in an upcoming game, but it needs to be finished first 

Otherwise I'll have to make up my own martial artist class.


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## Kerrick (Jun 11, 2008)

> The only problem with switching from Wis to Cha is you now upen up easy Sorc/Monk multiclassing. Granted, I don't know what's worse, Cleric/Monk or Sorc/Monk...but it's still an issue to consider.



Oh, I know. I don't think monk/sorcerer is that bad... certainly not as bad as monk/cleric or monk/druid. Ever seen a monk/cleric with Zen archery? Scary. I'm still undecided on using Cha vs. Wis as the main stat, though... I mean, I can see Wisdom being about awareness of self and inner discipline and what not, but Charisma is also kind of evocative of their abilities - it's force of will. I _could_ use them both - Wis for AC bonus and Cha to modify abilities - but the monk suffers from minor MAD syndrome already.



> I like it thus far. any chance you're going to fill in the missing fighting style abilities?



Working on it. That's part of the reason I posted here - I need some ideas. 



> Quick question: What did you want to balance this class against? Core, core + splatbooks, other custom (homebrewed) classes, etc? It makes a big difference.



Everything I make is balanced against the core rules only. This is technically going to be for a revised 3.5 (3.75, if you will), but I think it'll work just fine in a normal 3.5 campaign.



> I want to use it in an upcoming game, but it needs to be finished first.



Ah, so impatient. Give me some ideas, and I'll get it finished!  But seriously, I've done a little bit of work on it, and added some stuff to the first post - the Mountain style got some abilities, and I added specific weapons for each style; the Wind style is done, so you could use that for your game. 


Oh, in case anyone was wondering - keen strike is the epic feat from the ELH; piercing strike is the same thing, but it makes the monk's attacking piercing (duh) - he crits on 20, with x3 multiplier.


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## Dagredhel (Jun 12, 2008)

> North: The monk is well trained in offensive maneuvers. When fighting unarmed or with monkish weapons, she gains an insight bonus to attack rolls equal to her Wis bonus.




This is potentially too much for a second level character, and is still pretty sweet later on, given the bonus type.  (It'll also help alot with iterative attacks with flurry of blows, too.)  A progressive bonus would be better balanced.



> Style Ability: Monks who practice this style gain the strength and resolve of the earth – they have a +2 bonus to Fort and Will saves. The earth, however, is slow and ponderous – they suffer a -2 penalty to Reflex saves, and *their class level is treated as 3 levels lower for purposes of gaining fast movement*.




Since you didn't list it with the basic class features, I was assuming that the class didn't get Fast Movement by default.  Maybe you could tie Fast Movement more closely to a particular style, and the others could get something different instead?



> Soul of Fire (Ex): 3 + Cha bonus times per day (but only once per encounter), the monk can enter a rage, just like a barbarian's rage.




Does giving your monk a better version of rage (more uses) than the Barbarian really seem fair?


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## Kerrick (Jun 12, 2008)

> This is potentially too much for a second level character, and is still pretty sweet later on, given the bonus type. (It'll also help alot with iterative attacks with flurry of blows, too.) A progressive bonus would be better balanced.



Mm, good point. I made the AC bonus scale for just that reason, so it'd make sense to have this do the same.



> Since you didn't list it with the basic class features, I was assuming that the class didn't get Fast Movement by default. Maybe you could tie Fast Movement more closely to a particular style, and the others could get something different instead?



I didn't list it to save space - they still get it, and it's unchanged. I never really saw the justification behind monks being really fast, though... Hmm. None of the styles really lends itself to being fast (maybe the Sun style... but that's more about short-term bursts of energy). Possibly Wind Style, but that's already got all its slots filled.



> Does giving your monk a better version of rage (more uses) than the Barbarian really seem fair?



Oops. I forgot barbarians' rage was based on their level. I'll change that to 3/day; I already moved it to an Initiate ability (8th level), so it's the same as a barbarian of equal level, but they don't get more uses.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jun 12, 2008)

Some things to consider:

1) You might want to look at the Sohei's Ki-Frenzy instead of Rage.

2) You might want to give the class a wider variety of "monk weapons," either by virtue of looking up the various Feats that add a particular weapon to a PC's list of monk weapons, or by giving them a little cafeteria list to choose from at 1st level to simulate the weapon choices of various schools of martial arts.

Consider this from my homebrew, for example:


> Weapon Proficiencies: The Martial Artist is proficient in all simple weapons, PLUS choose one of the following groups as the PC's Melee Martial Arts Weapons and additional Ranged weapons:
> 
> 1) 1 One-handed and 2 Light Martial weapons + 1 Martial Ranged Weapon
> 2) 3 Exotic Light weapons + 1 Martial or Exotic Ranged Weapon
> ...






Finally, if you need any more inspiration, check out these threads:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=221182&page=1&pp=15
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=203353&page=1&pp=15


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## Sylrae (Jun 12, 2008)

for wind, instead of giving them an increased fast movement, give them the +20, but dont give it to anyone else. give them +10 off the bat, and an extra +10 when they become an initiate. it fits the character, and I don't think its big enough to unbalance the sytle.

also, how would the monk already have the cloud walk from another source, what else gives it?


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## Sylrae (Jun 12, 2008)

what is it about writers of game mechanics and assuming all characters are female, anyways. that always makes me angry. It's like the disincluding sexism that women used to complain about, only now its the other way around. personally I use *they*, which although informal, solves the problem without alternating back and forth.

but seriously, why does the game assume everyone is female? what purpose does it serve to write that way?


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## Dagredhel (Jun 12, 2008)

Sylrae said:
			
		

> what is it about writers of game mechanics and assuming all characters are female, anyways. that always makes me angry. It's like the disincluding sexism that women used to complain about, only now its the other way around. personally I use *they*, which although informal, solves the problem without alternating back and forth.
> 
> but seriously, why does the game assume everyone is female? what purpose does it serve to write that way?




If you went to college 15 years ago, you probably thought it was inane, but had to live with it as a requirement.  I did.  After a while, you get so used to it that it becomes force of habit.  (I used "they" too, until my college writing instructors started marking off for it.)


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## Sylrae (Jun 12, 2008)

No I'm going to university now, and currently they tell you to alternate, but that way is still stupid. what we need is a new goddamn pronoun. Maybe one that is NOT offensive to either gender.


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## Kerrick (Jun 12, 2008)

> 1) You might want to look at the Sohei's Ki-Frenzy instead of Rage.



I don't have OA (that IS from OA, right?).



> 2) You might want to give the class a wider variety of "monk weapons," either by virtue of looking up the various Feats that add a particular weapon to a PC's list of monk weapons, or by giving them a little cafeteria list to choose from at 1st level to simulate the weapon choices of various schools of martial arts.



That's interesting. I like that. A martial arts style should have more than one weapon associated with it. Do you mind if I yoink it?



> Finally, if you need any more inspiration, check out these threads:



Thanks, I'll do that. 



> for wind, instead of giving them an increased fast movement, give them the +20, but dont give it to anyone else. give them +10 off the bat, and an extra +10 when they become an initiate. it fits the character, and I don't think its big enough to unbalance the sytle.



So you mean get rid of the fast movement for ALL monks and just give it to the Wind Style? I'm kind of leaning that way myself - maybe give them a +10 at each style level. 

OTOH, while there's no logical justification for fast movement, it might be necessary for monks - they have no armor, and they're designed to be fast-moving guerilla fighters - move in, strike, maybe disable or inconvenience the opponent with trip/disarm/whatever, then fade if the enemy is too strong. The new styles might obviate this, though - Mountain Style just sucks up the damage, Sun can use a short burst to get away, Ocean is good at evasion, and Wind would be naturally fast. The Heavens has been kind of neglected... Dawn is still nearly blank, but Twilight could drop a cloud of darkness or do a shadow slip and get away. So it could go either way - I think it would have to be playtested to see for sure.



> also, how would the monk already have the cloud walk from another source, what else gives it?



That's not what it says. It says "If the monk already has this ability when she becomes a master..." Basically, it was my attempt to prevent the player from taking it at Master level and getting all the benefits - I wanted a way to build it up a bit, where you can only run across tree branches at first, then water (I considered running across clouds to be a bit much for a base class). I might just cut that line.



> what is it about writers of game mechanics and assuming all characters are female, anyways. that always makes me angry. It's like the disincluding sexism that women used to complain about, only now its the other way around. personally I use *they*, which although informal, solves the problem without alternating back and forth.



Just FYI, I don't use "she" all the time, because it irritates the hell out of me too. I alternate between classes or PrCs - he for one, she for another, depending on what I feel like at the time. I just happened to choose she for monks; I could've used different pronouns for each style, but I thought using the same one would be best for internal consistency. I've got an English degree (creative writing), but I never encountered the "you should/must use this pronoun" thing. When I'm writing generic rules, feats, and whatnot, I always default to "he" (I also hate that "you" crap they introduced in 3E).


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## Kerrick (Jun 12, 2008)

What do you guys think about each style having a different stat as a focus for its abilities? The base monk's skills (exclusive of fighting styles) aren't based on any one stat, so having a different focus for each wouldn't result in MAD. I was thinking something along the lines of:

Mountain: Con or Str (not sure, leaning toward Con)

Ocean: Wis or Dex (leaning toward Dex)

Sun: Cha

Heavens: Cha

Wind: Dex

It would increase variability among the styles and individual monks, and emphasize the basic differences between the styles - instead of everyone relying on Cha, they can play to their strengths (and it would reduce the need to rely on Cha as well as everything else, for most of the styles).


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## Sylrae (Jun 12, 2008)

I'm kindof leaning towards altering your fighting styles to be more like the fighting styles in Avatar: The Last Airbender. I don't plan on giving them the small bits of element control they have in the show, but the fighting styles are alot like what you have going here. They only had 4 styles, but still. Mountains - Earth. About stubbornness, and strong stances, and dealing damage. CON matches stat wise perfectly. Water - spirituality. your sea style works great. I'd keep wisdom here. Sun/Fire - Agressive, and powerful. their abilities come from their emotions. CHA all the way. (I may tweak this one to be less about bursts of energy and to be more agressive in my game). and Wind/Air - about avoidance. Light quick movements, with an emphasis on avoidance and number of strikes. I love the idea of cloudwalk. it's awesome. For these guys I'd go Dex.

I know these aren't exactly what you were imagining, but they're all based on actual martial arts styles. Earth/Mountains would be based on Hun Gar (you could even call it Hun Gar). Fire/Sun would be based on Northern Shaolin KungFu. Water/Sea based on Tai Chi. and Air/Wind would be based on Bagua.

I dont really like your heavens styles. I like the abilities, but not the element stuff. I don't think positive and negative energy fit the Idea of a monk that I'm imagining.  I love the temporary paralysis angle. Don't like shadowstrike, but I hate all things that cause permanent blindness in D&D they just make me angry because if im blinded I'm dead 2 rounds later. Save or dies suck. for quivering palm, I would change it do doing Con Damage. then a tough character will last longer. Also, some way to cure it should exist. maybe a potion, or a ritual, or some form of accupuncture/accupressure. Aspect of death doesn't fit a martial artist in my opinion. it falls under the same category of weird abilities that don't belong (that you were trying to fix)

I dont think fast movement is necessary for all of them.(maybe not any). Mountains/Earth/(Hun Gar) is about strong stances and endurance. they soak up damage. Water/Sea/TaiChi you reduce the damage by controlling your body movements/flow of energy. Fire/Sun/Northern Shao Lin presently uses burst of speed and other burst things, but I would keep them consistent. maybe give them the increased movement, but really I'd say their style is more of an "end the fight before they hit me" type of style. Air/Wind/Bagua I would make be the one about evasion. I don't just mean damage reduction, I mean total avoidance. Maybe an ability to which lets you cancel out attacks of opportunity before the opponent takes them, or an ability that lets you roll to dodge blows so the target hits nothing but air. I'm not sure what I would do for the heavens styles.

but I would line them up with actual schools of martial arts. I think it would just be awesome. and I don't think I'd give them supernatural energy channeling abilities. I mean it fits the asian mysticism associated with martial arts pretty well, but not really the practical aspect of it, you know? same with the undeath thing.

I'd go with Hun Gar instead of mountains, Northern Shao Lin instead of Sun, Tai Chi instead of Sea, Bagua instead of Wind, and instead of the Heavens, maybe base it on another style.

Xingyiquan matches up with your original concept of the sun style. It's all about bursts of power. I prefer the more consistent type of power though, so shao lin sounds better to me. 


Chin-Na is the closes I saw to you heavens styles, Pressure point and Joint lock attacks are the focus, but standard martial attacks are there too. It supposedly is the holder of the "Dim Mak" or Death touch.

from a page I found online, "Strengths: An extremely well rounded style with a vast array of techniques that are effective against many types of opponents.

Weaknesses: This style is so replete with so many different types of techniques, its mastery takes much longer than other Chinese styles. Also, its techniques are so precise that any mistake by the practitioner in the execution of a technique will mean the loss of advantage of the practitioner. Where other styles might be effective if the technique is a “near miss”, in Chin-Na any miss is catastrophic. " maybe with some attacks, missing could provoke an attack of opportunity. wouldn't that be nasty. 

Just some ideas.

and it took some looking, but I managed to pull it off with all chinese styles 

Chin Na could be replaced by Jujutsu and Marma Shastra (neither of which are chinese). the Chin Na alternatives have parts of Chin NA, but not all of it. Marma Shastra is the pressure point one, and Jujutsu is about joint locks and throws. and neither of those two are very good with strikes with the hands or feet for punches and kicks and the like.


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## Sylrae (Jun 12, 2008)

so the short version is. maybe you should use real styles as a basis? it seemed almost like thats what you were doing anyways.

and if you went with the styles, it may not be as hard to make up abilities based on descriptions of the styles online.

Hun Gar - Con - Mountains(Good as is style wise)
Northern Shaolin - Cha - aggressive and powerful, but not via bursts.
Chin Na - Int - Heavens (You could use part of your heavens style for this one)
Tai Chi - Wis - Sea (I love the wearing them down part, but maybe make the taking damage as lesser damage could be a more than once per day thing.
Bagua - Dex ( I like the speed ideas but would tweak it for more dodgey things)
and maybe Xingyiquan - (STR? so you have 1 of each? ) - bursts of power. I wouldn't pick this one personally but its the closest to your sun style. I would prefer to yank it and replace it with a new style. 

I'm not sure they should all get the same AC bonus by stat.I'd vary it up, so the Con based ones get less AC, but get DR, and more powerful attacks, The Cha ones would get less AC, but be compensated with damage, the sea ones would get the second most AC, at standard, and the wind ones would get EXTRA AC, or standard AC with complete damage avoidance rolls/abilities. for Chin Na make it standard since they will be making lots of paralysis attacks.

if you use the Xingyiquan I dunno what I would do for them yet.

also, I don't think uses per day fits a monk. its a fighting class, and I think the abilities shouldn't have much in the way of daily limits. maybe a limit based on CON or a recharge time if absolutely necessary.


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## Sylrae (Jun 12, 2008)

if you want to see what they look like in action, download avatar: the last airbender book 3 episode 10-11. it shows all of the 4. Aang, the bald kid with the arrow - Bagua. Kitara, the chick in blue with hair loopies - Tai Chi.  Toph (blind chick) - Hun Gar. the enemies, Princess azula in particular, are  northern shao lin style. If you find an episode with Ty Lee (Li) fighting, then she would be your Chin Na fighter. she's a little more acrobatic though. there are other character examples, but these are main characters who are examples.


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## Kerrick (Jun 13, 2008)

Wow.... you've been busy.



> I know these aren't exactly what you were imagining, but they're all based on actual martial arts styles. Earth/Mountains would be based on Hun Gar (you could even call it Hun Gar). Fire/Sun would be based on Northern Shaolin KungFu. Water/Sea based on Tai Chi. and Air/Wind would be based on Bagua.



Those are pretty much dead-on - Mountain style is a heavy hitter who can soak up damage (a power style); Ocean is all about flowing movements and using the enemy's strength against him (Tai Chi is a perfect example, combined with aikido/judo); Sun is an aggressive style (I like the suggestion to make it less about bursts of energy); Wind is, of course, based around speed (kung fu). Heavens were kind of an add-on; we (my friend and I) wanted to do Sun and Moon, and that was what I came up with after a little work. I know it's not in keeping with the monkish archetype, but there is precedent in D&D - the Monk of the Long Death, for instance. I think a cult of monk who worship a death god is just too cool to pass up.

What I think I'll do, since I'm drawing a blank on Dawn abilities, is just combine them into one style with two aspects - kind of like the Chin-Na style you mention, with pressure points, joint locks, and such, but the PC can choose how to apply them - if he wants to be evil, he can go around using his scorpion strike to inflict pain and suffering; if he's good, he can use it to disable opponents without inflicting pain (I have to add something for that...). Same with blinding strike and such - any condition he inflicts, he can reverse. If you've ever read the Destroyer novels, it's a lot like Sinanju - they can manipulate nerve clusters and pressure points to inflict incredible pain, paralyze some or all of the body, inflict blindness, etc. 



> Fire/Sun/Northern Shao Lin presently uses burst of speed and other burst things, but I would keep them consistent. maybe give them the increased movement, but really I'd say their style is more of an "end the fight before they hit me" type of style.



Kind of a "hit 'em the firstest with the mostest" style? You know, nail the opponent with overwhelming force and drop him fast? That's kind of what it's about, really - short-term bursts that deal a lot of damage. 

You say "aggressive and powerful", but wouldn't that step on the Mountain Style a bit? Is the aggressiveness at the cost of defense?



> Don't like shadowstrike, but I hate all things that cause permanent blindness in D&D they just make me angry because if im blinded I'm dead 2 rounds later.



Yeah, I thought that was a bit much myself - I can change it to temporary... maybe 1 round/level or something. I was leaning toward making the Twilight style about striking pressure points, too - disabling the opponent, inflicting crippling blows and such, without necessarily killing him.



> but I would line them up with actual schools of martial arts. I think it would just be awesome. and I don't think I'd give them supernatural energy channeling abilities. I mean it fits the asian mysticism associated with martial arts pretty well, but not really the practical aspect of it, you know?



Yeah... the elemental channeling thing just kind of popped up on its own, and I thought it was kinda cool, so I kept it, despite the fact that it is a bit wuxia (which I'm trying my best to avoid). I do want to have SOME mystical ability, though... I think a Master or Grandmaster-level monk should be able to do things that normal humans can't, like the burst of wind thing. I could ditch the Aspect of xxx cause it is a bit over the top, but then I'd need a new Grandmaster ability.



> for quivering palm, I would change it do doing Con Damage. then a tough character will last longer. Also, some way to cure it should exist. maybe a potion, or a ritual, or some form of accupuncture/accupressure.



Con damage would work, too... maybe drop the target's Con by half? I like the idea of being able to negate it - a Heal check could work, or a Dawn monk could do it.



> Air/Wind/Bagua I would make be the one about evasion. I don't just mean damage reduction, I mean total avoidance. Maybe an ability to which lets you cancel out attacks of opportunity before the opponent takes them, or an ability that lets you roll to dodge blows so the target hits nothing but air.



That could work.. I'll see what I can do.



> I'm not sure they should all get the same AC bonus by stat.I'd vary it up, so the Con based ones get less AC, but get DR, and more powerful attacks, The Cha ones would get less AC, but be compensated with damage, the sea ones would get the second most AC, at standard, and the wind ones would get EXTRA AC, or standard AC with complete damage avoidance rolls/abilities. for Chin Na make it standard since they will be making lots of paralysis attacks.



Now this I like - it makes the styles _different_, which is what I want. Don't forget, too, that you choose only ONE compass point - it's a style focus. I can change North and South to give a variable bonus based on the style, which would be noted in each style. I'd like to keep it so that there isn't a combination of style and focus that's significantly better than any other, though - I mean, a Wind Style monk who focuses on dealing damage, should be just as viable as the same monk with a defensive focus.



> also, I don't think uses per day fits a monk. its a fighting class, and I think the abilities shouldn't have much in the way of daily limits. maybe a limit based on CON or a recharge time if absolutely necessary.



Hmm... I read somewhere, in one of the many discussions about 4E encounter powers, someone used the analogy of a martial artist - you wouldn't use all your flashy moves over and over; you'd try it once or twice, then fall back on tried and true methods that are sure to work. I played judo in college, and I can agree with this - the big, flashy moves generally don't get used unless an opportunity presents itself. Most matches are won with a handful of throws, which are among the more basic ones, because they're the easiest to perform and have the widest utility. 



> so the short version is. maybe you should use real styles as a basis? it seemed almost like thats what you were doing anyways.



I was just kinda coming up with things off the top of my head, actually.   I'll check out Avatar, though. 

In the meantime, I'll go over the monk, tweak some things, and update the first post later. Thanks for all the input.


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## Sylrae (Jun 13, 2008)

Kerrick said:
			
		

> Those are pretty much dead-on - Mountain style is a heavy hitter who can soak up damage (a power style); Ocean is all about flowing movements and using the enemy's strength against him (Tai Chi is a perfect example, combined with aikido/judo); Sun is an aggressive style (I like the suggestion to make it less about bursts of energy); Wind is, of course, based around speed (kung fu). Heavens were kind of an add-on; we (my friend and I) wanted to do Sun and Moon, and that was what I came up with after a little work. I know it's not in keeping with the monkish archetype, but there is precedent in D&D - the Monk of the Long Death, for instance. I think a cult of monk who worship a death god is just too cool to pass up.



Also, Kung Fu isn't one school of martial arts, its alot of schools. And Kung Fu covers other things besides martial arts, whereas Wushu is just martial arts. but with the western definition where Kung Fu refers to martial arts, ALL of the styles I listed are Kung Fu. Hun Gar, Northern Shao Lin, Tai Chi, Bagua, and Chin-Na are all Kung Fu. when most people think of Kung Fu theyre thinking of Northern Shao Lin Kung Fu.



			
				Kerrick said:
			
		

> What I think I'll do, since I'm drawing a blank on Dawn abilities, is just combine them into one style with two aspects - kind of like the Chin-Na style you mention, with pressure points, joint locks, and such, but the PC can choose how to apply them - if he wants to be evil, he can go around using his scorpion strike to inflict pain and suffering; if he's good, he can use it to disable opponents without inflicting pain (I have to add something for that...). Same with blinding strike and such - any condition he inflicts, he can reverse. If you've ever read the Destroyer novels, it's a lot like Sinanju - they can manipulate nerve clusters and pressure points to inflict incredible pain, paralyze some or all of the body, inflict blindness, etc.
> ---------
> Yeah, I thought that was a bit much myself - I can change it to temporary... maybe 1 round/level or something. I was leaning toward making the Twilight style about striking pressure points, too - disabling the opponent, inflicting crippling blows and such, without necessarily killing him.
> ----------
> ...



I like the pressure point and exploiting weakness/reversing it ideas. I wouldnt go fractional con minuses, I'd make it flat numbers, which gradually increase (at the whim of the martial artist the player would have to make saves to stop it from further increasing). I'd drop the aspect Idea. think of it like this - they should be able to step outside the bounds of human limitation, but it shouldn't be supernatural. hence the running on water, etc, but not the turning into supernatural creatures.



			
				Sylrae said:
			
		

> Fire/Sun/Northern Shao Lin presently uses burst of speed and other burst things, but I would keep them consistent. maybe give them the increased movement, but really I'd say their style is more of an "end the fight before they hit me" type of style.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Kerrick (Jun 14, 2008)

> Also, Kung Fu isn't one school of martial arts, its alot of schools. And Kung Fu covers other things besides martial arts, whereas Wushu is just martial arts.



Oh, I know kung fu is a specific martial art - I've seen enough Jackie Chan movies, and the old 80's kung-fu flicks.



> I wouldnt go fractional con minuses, I'd make it flat numbers, which gradually increase (at the whim of the martial artist the player would have to make saves to stop it from further increasing).



Flat numbers sounds good. Maybe make it so that it deals 2 points right off, and the target loses another 2 points per hour/day until he dies or it's reversed - that follows the spirit of the original quivering palm, but makes it more applicable to this style.



> I'd drop the aspect Idea. think of it like this - they should be able to step outside the bounds of human limitation, but it shouldn't be supernatural.



Yeah... I want to keep the Aspect of Wind, though - it's just too cool, and it really fits the style. I'll maybe drop the concealment part though.



> and it's not so much that the Northern shao lin attack *at the cost of defense* as it is *without the extra defense*. it would be the 2nd fastest, and would do the most damage likely, but would have (out of the 4) the worst defense(not an actual penalty, just the smallest bonuses, or somethign like that)



Ah. Are you suggesting dropping the compass points? I want to keep those - they're good for adding a little boost to the style's strong point, or shoring up a weakness.



> I personally don't like the burst Idea, and even though I found an actual martial art that uses bursts of power in attacks, I would avoid it in favor of something a bit more constant.



Pure destructive power makes more sense, so I dropped the burst thing. 



> I think they aren't really necessary, as martial arts styles have their own focuses, most people dont specialize in obscure things in their own schools, they would just pick a different school. I would just work the compass points into the classes as you have them now. Every monk class needs the WIS based defense. they don't wear armor.



Makes sense. All monks get an AC bonus - it's awareness of self, which was supposed to be listed at 1st level. The description is in there, though; they gain a +3 dodge bonus, +1/3 levels. Mountain Style would swap half their AC bonus for DR /-; Sun Style would suffer a -2 penalty (as they're more focused on offense); Sea and Heavens Styles remain unchanged; and Wind Style gains a +2 bonus.



> I'm not saying they should all be at will powers like the 4e things, I'm just saying that they shouldnt be per day. if you're going to make them per day, the limit should be like 10 or something.



3 + stat bonus is pretty hefty. That's what I'm moving most of the abilities toward, for consistency's sake.



> also, the stat based bonuses to attack or armor need to be limited by level somehow. maybe like *to no more than your BAB+1* or *to no more than your Monk level +1* or something. a level 1 monk should be able to get a +2 but not higher. etc.



I'm fixing those - they'll be +1/rank.


I edited the first post to take (most of) your suggestions into account, along with some other ideas I had. There are still a few things to fix - this isn't close to the final version yet. I think what I'll do is put the elemental channeling stuff as a monk/sorcerer PrC - you can further tap into the power of your style, then you can get the supernatural abilities and aspects and such. I altered the sorcerer class (there might still be a thread on it here somewhere) to give them a more innate grasp of magic - they can tap directly into the source, etc.

I also found Avatar online, and I watched the first season on nick.com. Despite being written for kids, that show is awesome - it's got great writing, and the fighting styles are very evocative.


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## Sylrae (Jun 14, 2008)

Kerrick said:
			
		

> Flat numbers sounds good. Maybe make it so that it deals 2 points right off, and the target loses another 2 points per hour/day until he dies or it's reversed - that follows the spirit of the original quivering palm, but makes it more applicable to this style.



Yeah, make it like that, but mkae the 2 points per day be able to not happen for a given hour or more based on hte whim on the one who inflicted it. so if they want to, they could draw it out over days.



			
				Kerrick said:
			
		

> Yeah... I want to keep the Aspect of Wind, though - it's just too cool, and it really fits the style. I'll maybe drop the concealment part though.



I love aspect of the wind. That's what I meant. more abilities like that, less abilities where you shoot raw energy or turn into a big scary monster.



			
				Kerrick said:
			
		

> Ah. Are you suggesting dropping the compass points? I want to keep those - they're good for adding a little boost to the style's strong point, or shoring up a weakness.



 Compass points are a nifty idea, but they need to have different effects. Because as I said, ALL monks need an AC boost. you shouldnt make them have to pick between it and an attack. maybe allow it to give an additional AC boost of like up to +4 or something, but don't make the AC boost come solely from compass points. They should have less drastic effects. +4 should be the biggest bonus you can get from north or south, and I would tie it into the monk classification, like ititiate, etc.



			
				Kerrick said:
			
		

> Pure destructive power makes more sense, so I dropped the burst thing.



Awesome. 



			
				Kerrick said:
			
		

> Makes sense. All monks get an AC bonus - it's awareness of self, which was supposed to be listed at 1st level. The description is in there, though; they gain a +3 dodge bonus, +1/3 levels. Mountain Style would swap half their AC bonus for DR /-; Sun Style would suffer a -2 penalty (as they're more focused on offense); Sea and Heavens Styles remain unchanged; and Wind Style gains a +2 bonus.



I'd limit it by stat score, so if the stat used is Wisdom, then it could be no higher than your wisdom bonus. If mountain style drops half for DR, they should get half of their AC as DR, and thats pretty big. I dont know it should be that big. instead of giving penalties to Sun and a bonus to wind, I would make tables for the gain of AC, and have the Wind one gradually gain more, and hte Sun one gradually gain less. instead of giving penalties, change the fraction of the level used. it's fine for Mountain to give half AC and half DR is you want, but for Sun you should change the fraction to like 1/4, and for wind, maybe 1/2. your +2 amd -2 should be applied to the maximum number they can have, or you should base it on a different stat depending on the school.



			
				Kerrick said:
			
		

> 3 + stat bonus is pretty hefty. That's what I'm moving most of the abilities toward, for consistency's sake.



Clarify. 



			
				Kerrick said:
			
		

> I'm fixing those - they'll be +1/rank.



 is this in regard to compass points? if so, that sounds more reasonable.



			
				Kerrick said:
			
		

> I also found Avatar online, and I watched the first season on nick.com. Despite being written for kids, that show is awesome - it's got great writing, and the fighting styles are very evocative.



 Very true. as far as animated series go, I'd say its one of the best. There are a bunch of people here at the university who all watch it, and we've all been getting very angry at how they keep delaying the release of episodes, as well as annoyed at the fact that this is going to be the last season.


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## Dagredhel (Jun 15, 2008)

*Ki Frenzy: *  +2 to strength and +2 to
Dexterity. Speed increases by 10 feet, plus flurry of blows (making one extra attack per round while suffering a -2
penalty on every attack)

It would also be neat if each elemental school had a different combat ability reflecting differing fighting styles.  A single, extra-powerful attack would be good for Mountain (the double damage variant from PHBII.) The normal flurry of blows for Sun, maybe?  Sea could focus on grappling instead, and Heavens on throws?

Perhaps the Heavens school could focus more on ranged attacks, sort of like zen archery?

Just brainstorming...


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## Kerrick (Jun 15, 2008)

> Compass points are a nifty idea, but they need to have different effects.



I just came up with an idea... instead of making the compass points permanent foci, make them kind of like the "hard" and "soft" styles, and the monk can switch between them from round to round. That is, a monk can fight with North focus (attack bonus) one round, then switch to Southern (defense) if he's getting beaten. Western style would have to be changed, of course.. I'm thinking +2 to ability DCs. That way monks aren't hamstrung by their choices, and it more closely follows normal martial arts fighting styles.



> Because as I said, ALL monks need an AC boost. you shouldnt make them have to pick between it and an attack. maybe allow it to give an additional AC boost of like up to +4 or something, but don't make the AC boost come solely from compass points. They should have less drastic effects. +4 should be the biggest bonus you can get from north or south, and I would tie it into the monk classification, like ititiate, etc.



They all DO get an AC boost - like I said, the Awareness of Self ability grants them the bonus. The compass points (which were changed to be rank-dependent bonuses) are add-ons.



> I'd limit it by stat score, so if the stat used is Wisdom, then it could be no higher than your wisdom bonus.



Why? It's actually more balanced this way - you can't boost your Wisdom (or Con, or whatever) to get a ridiculously high AC bonus (which is what you'd be able to do even if it were limited to max stat bonus). A bonus that scales with level will enable the monk to keep up with the rest of the party, while keeping the bonus under control.



> If mountain style drops half for DR, they should get half of their AC as DR, and thats pretty big.



He gets half his AC _bonus_ as DR, not _half his AC_. I'm not that crazy.  Although I will clarify that it's the dodge bonus only, not the insight bonus granted by the Southern focus.



> instead of giving penalties to Sun and a bonus to wind, I would make tables for the gain of AC, and have the Wind one gradually gain more, and hte Sun one gradually gain less.



You can just make a note under each style. If you increase/decrease the AC rate, though, there's no need to apply the +/- 2 - that'll screw over the Sun Style and give the Wind Style an unneeded boost.



> > 3 + stat bonus is pretty hefty. That's what I'm moving most of the abilities toward, for consistency's sake.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You're suggesting giving them something like 10 uses/day for each ability, but 3 + stat bonus uses/day is still pretty hefty, especially at higher levels - they're going to have _at least_ +4. I'm moving most of the abilities toward 3 + stat bonus uses per day for consistency's sake, and leaving some of the more powerful/abusable ones at 3/day or less.



> Very true. as far as animated series go, I'd say its one of the best. There are a bunch of people here at the university who all watch it, and we've all been getting very angry at how they keep delaying the release of episodes, as well as annoyed at the fact that this is going to be the last season.



I heard they're going to do one more season - Aang will deal with the Fire Lord this season, and then they'll do Season 4. Given that it takes $1 million and 9-10 months to make each episode, it's no surprise they're being delayed.



> Ki Frenzy: +2 to strength and +2 to Dexterity. Speed increases by 10 feet, plus flurry of blows (making one extra attack per round while suffering a -2 penalty on every attack)



I like that - much more monk-like than the rage. Thanks!



> It would also be neat if each elemental school had a different combat ability reflecting differing fighting styles. A single, extra-powerful attack would be good for Mountain (the double damage variant from PHBII.) The normal flurry of blows for Sun, maybe? Sea could focus on grappling instead, and Heavens on throws?



That's pretty much what I want to do - make the styles unique and evocative of the elemental types. Mountain Style has the single attack - it's part of Rooted to the Earth. I like Sea being based on Tai Chi, which isn't grappling (sorry). I'm really not sure what to do with Heavens; I might just drop it.


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## GeorgeFields (Jun 15, 2008)

Great thread. I'm looking forward to seeing the finished layout.


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## Sylrae (Jun 16, 2008)

AC Bonuses.

I came up with progression tables based on fractions. Initially I used the nice fractions I listed above, but I changed the fractions used so that they would amount to the same final values as the modifiers you came up with. At max level its the same effect, but this should make things a little more even in the low levels.


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## Kerrick (Jun 16, 2008)

The Hun Gar DR value looks really weird - subtracting Hun Gar from tai Chi doesn't result in a clean progression. I'd just use Tai Chi's progression (or make a new one) and divide by 2.


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## Sylrae (Jun 16, 2008)

lol. that's what it is. divide by two and round.

The reason I didn't get the DR the same way, is because if I did, you would round up twice, or round down twice, resulting in jumpy values, and in some cases having more of a total (AC+DR) than Tai Chi.

Shall I show you unrounded values?





The whole reason behind the subtraction thing, is that this way, when you round up for AC, then you Round Down for DR.

if you want a table like this samns rounding, then I'd have to adjust the fractions, but you'd end up with roughly the same table..


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## Sylrae (Jun 16, 2008)

Here is a table with all rounded down numbers. (Except for the weirdness that is HunGar). I explained the DR differently (though it will give the same result as how I explained it with subtraction before) Hun Gar AC is Tai Chi/2 AlwaysRound up (before you used to do the rounding like you would in real math), and Hun Gar DR is Tai Chi/2 Always round down.






For comparisons sake, here is the old table, designed with the same Max and Min values, but using standard rounding of .5+ you round up and less rounds down






They're almost the same, with the Round down table always being a level behind in progression until level 18, at which point it catches up.

I'm not sure which method of rounding should be used. I believe BAB uses the round down method. I know normally standard rounding (instead of rounding everything down) is used for just about everything.

Edit: Design Note - both tables were designed around the numbers hence the less thatn nice fractions. goals: lowest value 3, final iincrease at level 20, N. Shaolin and Bagua have final values 2 higher, and 2 lower, respectively. using normal rounding Taichi matched this perfectly and I based the others aroun that. Using all round downs, tai chi is ALMOST 10 (9.6~), but it rounded down. so I bumped up all the fractions by .25/12, and the progression worked better.


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## Kerrick (Jun 16, 2008)

> I'm not sure which method of rounding should be used. I believe BAB uses the round down method. I know normally standard rounding (instead of rounding everything down) is used for just about everything.



D&D standard is always round down.



> Edit: Design Note - both tables were designed around the numbers hence the less thatn nice fractions. goals: lowest value 3, final iincrease at level 20, N. Shaolin and Bagua have final values 2 higher, and 2 lower, respectively. using normal rounding Taichi matched this perfectly and I based the others aroun that. Using all round downs, tai chi is ALMOST 10 (9.6~), but it rounded down. so I bumped up all the fractions by .25/12, and the progression worked better.



I wonder if I can tie this to the unarmed damage progression somehow. See, my only major opposition to this idea is that it's on a chart. Charts = more space, and this thing is already sitting at just over 7 pages in Arial 9 pt. The unarmed damage is already on its own little chart, and I've got enough room for AC bonus; I could play around with unarmed damage a bit too (2d10 at 20th level is a bit much, IMO).

As far as other things... I've decided to ditch the Heaven Style entirely and just make it into a PrC. It ended up being about striking nerves and pressure points, but it didn't really fit with the others, and I think 4 styles is enough anyway. The style abilities will likewise probably go away too - I only added them to have something at 3rd level, and I've already got evasion there. Most of the Su abilities are gone, moved to future PrCs (they'll focus more fully on the styles and tapping into elemental power, and will grant more Su abilities); unfortunately, this pretty well gutted the Sun style and most of the upper-level abilities for the other styles.  

I'd like to put in Su abilities for Grandmaster rank at least, possibly Master if something fits - nothing over the top, but something semi-mystical, possibly using ki. Hindu fakirs can do things that seem supernatural, but are well within the bounds of human ability, so it stands to reason that a high-level monk could do the same.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Jun 16, 2008)

Been away a while, so...



> > 1) You might want to look at the Sohei's Ki-Frenzy instead of Rage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yep.

With +2 Str & Dex, +10'Spd (-2Str & Dex afterwards), its similar to Rage except the PC has no AC penalty and can still FoB...but it doesn't boost in potency over time and there are no feats that increase the #/day you can Frenzy.  Because it doesn't boost Con, the duration will be slightly less and there are no bonus HP, but your AC will be higher.



> > 2) You might want to give the class a wider variety of "monk weapons," either by virtue of looking up the various Feats that add a particular weapon to a PC's list of monk weapons, or by giving them a little cafeteria list to choose from at 1st level to simulate the weapon choices of various schools of martial arts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




If you haven't done so already, feel absolutely free to yoink the variable weapons thing.  Its become my standard 3.X Monk/Martial Artist HR for a while now.

You'll notice you can't _quite_ replicate the Monk's list with this rule- the quarterstaff wouldn't be selectable except under the last option.

This is because I forgot the last part of the rule- *you can always trade down when selecting weapons for the martial artist's "style"- exotic to martial or simple, martial to simple.*

In addition, I also let players burn a feat to add an additional category of martial arts weapons.  IOW,


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## Sylrae (Jun 17, 2008)

Kerrick said:
			
		

> D&D standard is always round down.



OK. use the last setup then.



			
				Kerrick said:
			
		

> I wonder if I can tie this to the unarmed damage progression somehow. See, my only major opposition to this idea is that it's on a chart. Charts = more space, and this thing is already sitting at just over 7 pages in Arial 9 pt. The unarmed damage is already on its own little chart, and I've got enough room for AC bonus; I could play around with unarmed damage a bit too (2d10 at 20th level is a bit much, IMO).



 The Tables I put here are just for illustration. you could just as easily just give the formula to calculated the AC instead. like Tai Chi:3+(4.25/12 per level) AC Bonus. See? much smaller than a table. I don't think it matters if it takes a bunch of pages. With how the schools work and how different they are, its actually like having 4 similar but distinct martial artist classes. that is part of what makes it better than the default. A default class takes 2-4 pages. this takes 7+, that sounds reasonable to me.



			
				Kerrick said:
			
		

> As far as other things... I've decided to ditch the Heaven Style entirely and just make it into a PrC. The style abilities will likewise probably go away too - I only added them to have something at 3rd level, and I've already got evasion there. Most of the Su abilities are gone, moved to future PrCs (they'll focus more fully on the styles and tapping into elemental power, and will grant more Su abilities); unfortunately, this pretty well gutted the Sun style and most of the upper-level abilities for the other styles.



I think ditching the elemental attacks is a good idea. Heaven style would make a good PrC, but it would also make for an interesting new concept. You could have a handful of monk abilitied that any monk could take, in place of the school one for their level. just an idea. 



			
				Kerrick said:
			
		

> I'd like to put in Su abilities for Grandmaster rank at least, possibly Master if something fits - nothing over the top, but something semi-mystical, possibly using ki. Hindu fakirs can do things that seem supernatural, but are well within the bounds of human ability, so it stands to reason that a high-level monk could do the same.



 This is exactly what I'm talking about. Like aspect of the wind, and cloudwalk. stuff like running up or along walls, punching through solid objects way harder than a fist, these are the types of wicked things I imagine a monk doing. Catching a blade thats being sung at you with your hands or with a sai, sundering a weapn with your bare hands, diverting your opponent's attack and making his attack cause him harm, those types of things.


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## Kerrick (Jun 17, 2008)

> If you haven't done so already, feel absolutely free to yoink the variable weapons thing. Its become my standard 3.X Monk/Martial Artist HR for a while now.



Sweet, thanks.



> This is because I forgot the last part of the rule- you can always trade down when selecting weapons for the martial artist's "style"- exotic to martial or simple, martial to simple.



Makes sense. I hadn't really noticed, but thanks. 



> With +2 Str & Dex, +10'Spd (-2Str & Dex afterwards), its similar to Rage except the PC has no AC penalty and can still FoB...but it doesn't boost in potency over time and there are no feats that increase the #/day you can Frenzy. Because it doesn't boost Con, the duration will be slightly less and there are no bonus HP, but your AC will be higher.



Coolio. The Sun Style needs that, what with the -2 they get. I have no problem with a lack of increased Con - Sun Style is all about dealing damage, not buffing yourself up like the hulk.



> The Tables I put here are just for illustration. you could just as easily just give the formula to calculated the AC instead. like Tai Chi:3+(4.25/12 per level) AC Bonus. See? much smaller than a table.



Yeah... who's actually going to calculate that every time they get a new level? That's why we have tables.  The easiest way to do it would just be to give everyone 3 + 1/3 level, then subtract 2 for Sun Style and add 2 for Wind. I did a comparison in Excel, using 1 + 1/3 level for Sun and 5 + 1/3 level for Wind; the end numbers are exactly the same as yours (+8 and +12), but the progressions are slightly different. I'm fine with that, really - a couple lines vs. a huge chart.



> I think ditching the elemental attacks is a good idea. Heaven style would make a good PrC, but it would also make for an interesting new concept. You could have a handful of monk abilitied that any monk could take, in place of the school one for their level. just an idea.



Duh. *slaps forehead* I think I'd mentioned that to my friend when I was bouncing ideas around - once I dropped all the energy resistance and moved a few other things around, I ended up with a bunch of empty slots, and I wanted to find some generic monk abilities to fill them. These would be perfect - I could put quivering palm back into the lineup, albeit in a more balanced form. 



> This is exactly what I'm talking about. Like aspect of the wind, and cloudwalk. stuff like running up or along walls, punching through solid objects way harder than a fist, these are the types of wicked things I imagine a monk doing. Catching a blade thats being sung at you with your hands or with a sai, sundering a weapn with your bare hands, diverting your opponent's attack and making his attack cause him harm, those types of things.



I haven't had the time to watch more episodes of Avatar lately... I'm only halfway through the second season. I'll bet I can get some good ideas there.


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## Sylrae (Jun 17, 2008)

the table wouldn't be a considerably different size, you know. its still 4 columns and 20 rows. even if you manage to ditch a couple rows, I can't imagine it making that big a difference for space.

and i know the end numbers are the same, but your idea is going to make wind be more than a bit better at low levels, and sun will be more than a bit worse. that is, unless you frontload those schools and give better abilities at the beginning than you should. 

That's why I decided the fractions would be a good idea.


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## Knightfall (Jun 17, 2008)

GeoFFields said:
			
		

> Great thread. I'm looking forward to seeing the finished layout.



I must agree. This is a great thread; however, I've only skimmed it so far. Keep up the good work all.


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## Kerrick (Jun 19, 2008)

> and i know the end numbers are the same, but your idea is going to make wind be more than a bit better at low levels, and sun will be more than a bit worse. that is, unless you frontload those schools and give better abilities at the beginning than you should.



Yeah, you're right. Sun would start off at 1+Dex; assuming 16 Cha and 14 Dex, that'd be 13 AC. Wind would get 5+Dex, which is a good deal better. 

I was thinking about the chart thing, and I realized that if I put this thing in double-column format, the chart would take up roughly half as much space. I always work in single-column (read: full-page) format, so it didn't really occur to me. So, I'll just add the chart. 



> This is a great thread; however, I've only skimmed it so far. Keep up the good work all.



Thanks, guys. I'm currently tearing my hair out moving things around and trying to think up abilities for everything, but when this thing is done, I'll do up a nice pdf and post it for everyone.


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## Sylrae (Jun 19, 2008)

ah. yeah, 2 columsn is totally the way to go. i put all or my D&D stuff in 2 column format. it really does take up just a little more than half the space usually.


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## Aus_Snow (Jun 19, 2008)

Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> I must agree. This is a great thread; however, I've only skimmed it so far. Keep up the good work all.



Seconded, thirded or something along those lines. 

Really interesting looking Monk. In a good way, I mean.


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## Sylrae (Jun 24, 2008)

Anything new with this?


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## Kerrick (Jun 25, 2008)

I've been kinda busy lately, and I'm starting a new job today, but I'll try to think up some stuff while I'm there. I will finish this, I promise.


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## Kerrick (Jun 28, 2008)

Good news! I've been applying my brain this class while I was at work this week, and I've come up with some new abilities. It's not totally done yet, but I added a couple to the Mountain Style and the Water Style. I've also revised everything else (rearranged and updated abilities) and added a few abilities to the main class (I've had them for awhile, just didn't realize they weren't there). This thing is shaping up very nicely - a little more work and I can call it done. I'm going to rent a few martial arts movies this weekend so I can get some ideas for the Sun Style.


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## Sylrae (Jun 30, 2008)

Sweet.

Fatiguing strike: Successive strikes are not cumulative. is that referring to the penalties not increasing, or does that mean that if you do it again after 8 minutes the counter doesnt start over with another 10 minutes?

Earthsense: Should work if they're standing on objects. otherwise a sules lawyer could argue that if they wear shoes earthsense doesn't work on them. or, they'll just stand on their shield or something.

and why does mountain use CHA for ability uses. should it not be Con? or at least STR?

and for Wind, the abilities that use Cha instead of Dex, should probably be using wisdom.

ohter than that, awesome. looks almost done.

oh, and maybe fix the spoiler box for the first few classes.


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## Kerrick (Jul 2, 2008)

Sylrae said:


> Sweet.
> 
> Fatiguing strike: Successive strikes are not cumulative. is that referring to the penalties not increasing, or does that mean that if you do it again after 8 minutes the counter doesnt start over with another 10 minutes?



Both.



> Earthsense: Should work if they're standing on objects. otherwise a sules lawyer could argue that if they wear shoes earthsense doesn't work on them. or, they'll just stand on their shield or something.



True. If someone did that to me, I'd just smack him in the head with a PHB, but some people are lacking in common sense.



> and why does mountain use CHA for ability uses. should it not be Con? or at least STR?



Oops. It should be Con.



> and for Wind, the abilities that use Cha instead of Dex, should probably be using wisdom.



Should be Dex. I'll fix those.



> ohter than that, awesome. looks almost done.
> 
> oh, and maybe fix the spoiler box for the first few classes.



Sweet. I'll fix that too.


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## Sylrae (Jul 5, 2008)

so when are those Shao Lin abilities coming?


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## Kerrick (Jul 5, 2008)

Patience, young padawan. As it happens, I did some work on it last night and added a few abilities - Mountain Style got an Acolyte-level ability, Sun Style got several. I'm still at a loss to do a non-supernatural Grandmaster ability for Sun, though.  I'll keep working on it.


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## Sylrae (Jul 6, 2008)

we started a game today where we have a wind/bagua school martial artist. so far its pretty good, but theyre still level one so he still hasn't tried any of the school specific things. though the insane move bonus they get might be too big.

he picked a race with a 40 move speed, and he's gonna get like a +70 by level 20, and he wanted to take fleet of foot on top of all that.

the amount of +10s you get should be a bit smaller I think. like
maybe have it increase from +10 to +20 or at most, to +30.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 6, 2008)

I say let him be as fast as he wants to be.

A high speed just means you're farther away from help when the fit hits the shan.


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## Kerrick (Jul 6, 2008)

That's the standard bonus movement from the original monk; I just placed the level increases 1 higher than normal (2, 5, 8, etc. instead of 3, 6, 9, etc.). I never understood the huge bonus speed, but I thought it'd work well for a Wind Style monk. I could tone it down a little (maybe drop the increases to every 4 levels). This guy seems to be bent on optimizing his monk for speed, though, so it'd be kind of hard to judge based on that.


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## Sylrae (Jul 6, 2008)

the standard monk increase that much? damn. I don't usually play monks, didn't know that.

Well, if its that big a bonus, the we have to give at least part of it to the other schools, it's too big to compare to some of the other abilities. either that, or give a lowered bonus to air.

If we give all of them the speed bonuses, they should probably go like this:

Mountain: 20
Sea: 30
Sun: 40
Wind: 50

if you're dead set on wind having the +70 for wind

Mountain: 20
 Sea: 30
 Sun: 50
 Wind: 70

might work.

if theyre the only martial arts school that gets the fast movement, I think maybe the fast movement should be limited to +20. maybe +30 if the last+10 was after level 16. Like at 2, and every 7 levels later, or somethign like that.

Also, Kerrick, I got something sweet out of that post about fixing the cleric I had going. It might be what you were looking for in your new cleric. Check this out>http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?p=4359487#post4359487


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## Kerrick (Jul 7, 2008)

I'm of two minds about the fast movement - one the one hand, I can't really justify giving it to the other styles (except maybe Sun), but on the other, it's pretty much a must-have ability for the Wind Style (especially over Leap of the Clouds, since speed affects how far you can jump). In either case, it definitely needs toned down. I might just put it back as a base class ability and make the speed increases vary by style, then come up with another Acolyte-level Wind ability. Or I could ditch it entirely and just give them Burst of Speed - 3 times per day, they can move twice as fast for 3+Dex mod rounds.


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## Sylrae (Jul 7, 2008)

Kerrick said:


> I'm of two minds about the fast movement - one the one hand, I can't really justify giving it to the other styles (except maybe Sun), but on the other, it's pretty much a must-have ability for the Wind Style (especially over Leap of the Clouds, since speed affects how far you can jump). In either case, it definitely needs toned down. I might just put it back as a base class ability and make the speed increases vary by style, then come up with another Acolyte-level Wind ability. Or I could ditch it entirely and just give them Burst of Speed - 3 times per day, they can move twice as fast for 3+Dex mod rounds.




If you agree it needs toning down, and that it probably shouldn't exist in Mountain or Sea, particularly mountain, here are some other ideas.

Mountain: +0
Sea: +10
Sun: +20
Wind: +30

Much smaller bonuses, but I think it could work. or if you want to really restrict it then 
Mountain: +0
Sea: +0
Sun: +10
Wind: +20

could be the way to go.

I like the 0 10 20 30 personally.

youd need to offset it a little to give the mountain, sea, and sun things to compensate for the slower movement. It's not that powerful, so maybe you could just tweak a few of their abilities to be a bit more powerful, or do a combination of damage and armor bonuses depending on which school. Mountain could have a higher damage type and armor, sea higher armor, and sun higher damage.


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## Kerrick (Jul 8, 2008)

I think what I'll do is give everyone a speed increase, but do it like you did AC - Mountain advances more slowly and has a lower cap, then Sea, Sun, and Wind at the top. Monks aren't meant to be front-line fighters, so they need additional speed to get away from enemies/move around the battlefield.

So it'd look something like this:

(Fast movement listed at L3.)

Wind: +10 ft. at 3/6/9/12/15/18

Sun: +10 ft. at 4/8/12/16/20

Sea: +10 ft. at 5/10/15/20

Mountain: +10 ft. at 6/12/18


And then we can give Wind... oh, I dunno, some other ability at Acolyte level.


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## Sylrae (Jul 8, 2008)

Kerrick said:


> I think what I'll do is give everyone a speed increase, but do it like you did AC - Mountain advances more slowly and has a lower cap, then Sea, Sun, and Wind at the top. Monks aren't meant to be front-line fighters, so they need additional speed to get away from enemies/move around the battlefield.
> 
> So it'd look something like this:
> 
> ...




I think that still might be too big for wind. and at the same time, it's something you'll need to beef up the other styles a bit to counter for the lack of, so you'd need to take the speed into account.

I'd move everyone down on your table. But I dont personally think any of them should get a bonus higher than 40 ft.

Wind: +10 ft. at 5/10/15/20

Sun: +10 ft. at 6/12/18

Sea: +10 ft. at 7/14 or (8/16)

Mountain: +10 ft. at 8/16 or (10/20) or just 11


you could make everything go earlier.

Wind: +10 ft. at 3/8/13/18(5-2)
Sun: +10 ft. at 5/11/17(6-1)
Sea: +10 ft. at 7/14(7)
Mountain: +10 ft. at 9/17 (8+1)


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## Kerrick (Jul 9, 2008)

Sylrae said:


> I think that still might be too big for wind. and at the same time, it's something you'll need to beef up the other styles a bit to counter for the lack of, so you'd need to take the speed into account.
> 
> I'd move everyone down on your table. But I dont personally think any of them should get a bonus higher than 40 ft.



Yeah, I thought about it, and Wind Style being 90 ft. move at L20 is way too good - especially when you add in expeditious retreat, haste, or other things that boost speed (even running). 40 ft. max bonus sounds about right. Wind is already getting penalized (slightly) for the speed increase by a damage decrease, though I could up it. Mountain Style doesn't really need lots of speed, since they can soak up damage, and Sea can avoid it. Fire would have the second best speed boost, so I think they'll be good.

I was looking over this thing last night, and I'm starting to wonder if it's not a BIT overpowered...


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## ardentmoth (Jul 9, 2008)

Kerrick said:


> Oh, I know. I don't think monk/sorcerer is that bad... certainly not as bad as monk/cleric or monk/druid. Ever seen a monk/cleric with Zen archery? Scary. I'm still undecided on using Cha vs. Wis as the main stat, though... I mean, I can see Wisdom being about awareness of self and inner discipline and what not, but Charisma is also kind of evocative of their abilities - it's force of will. I _could_ use them both - Wis for AC bonus and Cha to modify abilities - but the monk suffers from minor MAD syndrome already.




Charisma isn't "force of will." It is "force of personality."  I doubt a monk, someone who is essentially a hermit that can fight, would be either loud or overly concerned with his popularity. Suggestion: maintain the wisdom requirement.


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## Drowbane (Jul 9, 2008)

Shadow Dweller said:


> The only problem with switching from Wis to Cha is you now upen up easy Sorc/Monk multiclassing.  Granted, I don't know what's worse, Cleric/Monk or Sorc/Monk...but it's still an issue to consider.




Cleric doesn't "need" monk... where as Sorc gets alot of millage out of even one level... assuming Cha to AC (battledancer)


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## Sylrae (Jul 9, 2008)

i dunno

force of personality - force of will: closely related enough as far as im concerned. wisdom is supposedly a combination of experience and good instincts, theres no way thats force of will, but thats the default for will saves, as goofy as that seems. cha always made more sense for will saves to me, but thats just my opinion.

as for worrying about the AC getting too high, just don't let them stack, or come up with a system to allow them to stack in the way you want.

the houserule"no more than 2 ability scores can add to armor at the same time, and one of them hasto be dex" has always fixed that exploit in games ive played. then there are no uber monk duelists ect etc who add every fricking stat to their ac.


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## Kerrick (Jul 10, 2008)

> Charisma isn't "force of will." It is "force of personality." I doubt a monk, someone who is essentially a hermit that can fight, would be either loud or overly concerned with his popularity.



You're right, it IS force of personality... but having a strong personality doesn't necessarily mean the person is brash and outgoing. It means that he has a strong sense of self, that he won't back down from a challenge... it's self-awareness, basically, as opposed to Wisdom, which is instinct, experience, and learning.



> the houserule"no more than 2 ability scores can add to armor at the same time, and one of them hasto be dex" has always fixed that exploit in games ive played. then there are no uber monk duelists ect etc who add every fricking stat to their ac.



I've never seen that one, but it's definitely a good idea.


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## LittleRush (Jul 10, 2008)

*Stats for the New Monk*

Greetings All,

Kerrick, your monk class build is quite elegant. You have a real Knack for eying the required balances.

My advice would be to go with a single prime Requisite ability for the class, your earlier post about Cha vs. Wis raised some interesting thoughts, Cha would imply that the martial artists relied on their force of personality like a bard or sorcerer, Wisdom implies that they rely on intuition, discipline, and understanding like a cleric.

While both present interesting options, I will have to weigh in for wisdom in this case. I think that intuition and understanding suits the nature of marital arts better than charisma. Also to compound my opinion I have some experience (though limited) with martial arts, and it seems to me that perception is perhaps the biggest component of any martial art.

Allow me to explain:

1: In D&D spot and listen are linked to wisdom, these skills control your characters ability to perceive the world around him.

2: Martial artists have the reputation for being powerful fighters, this is based on not only how to throw a punch or kick but where and when to throw it. In effect the characters perception of the opponent controls his effectiveness far more than other classes. An axe in the chest is an axe in the chest armor or no, but a punch has to land just so.

3: It opens an option that might forge interesting in game combinations, the base monk class abilities based on wisdom and perception, but the fighting styles based on other attributes to flesh out what a given monk chooses to do with the world he perceives.

-- As an aside if the base abilities are keyed to wisdom, using physical attributes would help round out the idea that the styles are physical outlets for the trained perceptions and disciplines of the monk.

Just thoughts, hope some of this is useful to you.


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## ardentmoth (Jul 10, 2008)

^ What he said.

While it's interesting to think of a more swashbuckling brawler, or a wrestling bandit, it's not really a monk anymore. Martial arts are indeed based on perception and intuition rather than how good your smile looks.


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## Sylrae (Jul 10, 2008)

LittleRush said:


> Greetings All,
> 
> Kerrick, your monk class build is quite elegant. You have a real Knack for eying the required balances.
> 
> ...



As a generic martial artist, your point stands perfectly, but these different schools draw from different things for their power, so while they all require training and intuition, each is keyed to the ability score that best matches where they draw their inner power.



ardentmoth said:


> ^ What he said.
> 
> While it's interesting to think of a more swashbuckling brawler, or a wrestling bandit, it's not really a monk anymore. Martial arts are indeed based on perception and intuition rather than how good your smile looks.




it really has nothing to do with appearance, or persuasiveness, though it does have to do with their personality. Charisma isn't about your D cup boobs or chiseled jaw, it has to do with your personality (whether you have one, and how much of one), Your ability to be likable if you want to be, and in this case it is also the stat that most accurately measures anything related to your emotions.

I'll re-break it down for you so can understand the concept, moth. 

--------------------------------------------
Standard Monk: Relies on discipline. The stereotypical martial artist, except they get all sorts of weird supernatural abilities that probably shouldne be there.

We however broke it down into schools, who all draw from something different.

*Mountain: *These martial artists rely on their own toughness more than anything else. their endurance, and the ability to just shake off things that would make others collapse.
_Specialized Ability Score: _*CONSTITUTION*

*Sea:* These martial artists rely on focus, discipline, and 'inner peace'. They flow around the opponent, and are very wise.
_Specialized Ability Score: _*WISDOM*

*Wind:* These martial artists are focused on speed. They go faster, and learn more and more evasion. When the opponent goes to strike them, they are already gone. They could spend a fight entirely behind the opponent, never giving them a chance to see them face to face to hit them. Or they could let the opponent see them, swing at them, and just never allow the opponent's attacks to connect.
_Specialized Ability Score: _*DEXTERITY*

*Sun: *Primarily an offensive martial art, they focus on channeling their emotions, particularly passion or agression. They are fast, and strong, but have very little defensive abilities. The goal is to take down the opponent before they get to hit you, because you aren't as tough or evasive as other schools.
_Specialized Ability Score: _*CHARISMA*

The abilities that don't see use are Int and Str. 2 more schools COULD be added, and one of them 'almost' was.

There was a school focused on pressure points, and paralysis from hitting certain points on the body etc. They would have been perfect for Int. Mayhaps they will be added after.

and As for STR, an STR based monk would be like Mountain, still slow, but would be more damage focused and less defensive. What types of abilities they would use, I don't know exactly.


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## Sylrae (Jul 10, 2008)

Now that I have explained the different Abilities, I'm going to evaluate all the schools in detail. as well as some general issues.

*General:*
1. _Do they get all the abilities for their rank?_ or do they have to pick. If they are expected to pick, some of them are better than others.

2. _Compass Points:_ West - most abilities are non-duration abilities, so this is kindof useless. except with wind, and even then it's not useful until youre a grandmaster.

3. _Awareness of Self:_ Do they get this while unconscious? its a result of their training, and they can't use it, so I would think other than Mountain's DR they would not. 

4. _Not all the schools presently have a default ability that they get._ Mountain does, and maybe sea, but that's it.

*Mountain:*

*Iron Fist:* So this ability does NOTHING to non constructs/objects?

*???:* Does this damage the first object, or just the distanced object? What if your first object is a creature (which I see no real reason it should not be)

*Rooted in the Earth:* stack with the Awareness of Self DR? because it should, and by default it doesn't.

*A permanent Earthsense would be a totally awesome ability - just throwing that out there.* Maybe asa higher up ability or something.

*Earthquake strike:* should add the Monk's STR to the damage.


*Sea:*
*Defensive Roll:* making it a reflex save is kindof wind-like. maybe it would be better to make it wis-based (experience, and prediction instead of speed) and revolve around redirecting the attack as the explanation on how they take less damage.
*
Fatiguing Strike: *uses CHA right now, and that is probably an oversight.

*Relentless Waves:* maybe you should specify the size of the object. if someone is using it on a wall, for example, it shouldnt be the whole wall, just a section.

*???: *specify that the 5 feet to redirect should allow "through" the monk's square, but to 5 ft behind them. The monk and the attacker should effectively switch squares in that case.

*Sun:*

I'm not familiar with Ki Rage or Stunning Fist so I'll look them up later.

*???: *Disarming seems more of a sea thing than a fire thing.

*Fireburst: *This should be allowed to be worked into a flurry attack (though obviously would have to be the last attack for that to work)

*Improvised Weapon:* This makes fire come off as a bit of a drunken brawler instead of a martial artist, and I don't think it really fits.
*
Wind:*
The extra attacks should maybe be a defensive speed ability. Also they're not well defined as to how many extra attacks give what penalties and whatnot.

*???:* it shouldnt be 3x per day, I think this is the defining characteristic of the school. it should be limited in a non-use way, or the school should lack something else to compensate. the 3x per day should be more like once per round or so. Maybe make it eat up a move action as the limit, so while evading attacks they cant do a flurry.

*Rushing Wind: *The size needs to vary depending on the monk's size, because they aren't all going to be medium creatures. do like a double/half thing depending, etc.
*
Aspect of the Wind: *How does one determine if they stop moving? I know players who would assume that means at the end of the round, so it needs to be more clearly defined. I can guess how you want it to work, but it would be better if you actually said. Change the wording of can't fly to 'doesn't gain the ability to fly', because if the monk has another means of flight, your raw would take it away.

~Darkholme out.


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## LittleRush (Jul 11, 2008)

*Guess I missed something*

Greetings,

Are these fighting styles / learned or inherent to a character who chooses this class? Does he study them and learn them, or does he just manifest them automatically?


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## Sylrae (Jul 11, 2008)

Pretty Surethey're supposed to be like a learned thing, possibly also cultural. There isnt presently a way to dabble and learn from multiple schools though.


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## Kerrick (Jul 12, 2008)

> Kerrick, your monk class build is quite elegant. You have a real Knack for eying the required balances.



Thanks! Though I've had quite a bit of help with this thing.



> Are these fighting styles / learned or inherent to a character who chooses this class? Does he study them and learn them, or does he just manifest them automatically?



Definitely learned. Players should RP learning them from a master instead of just gaining the knowledge automatically; I would assume that most PCs starting as monks would have it in their backstory, and others would acquire the knowledge in the course of their training to gain monk levels later in life. Since it's a base class, I won't make it a hard requirement like I would for a PrC.

There's no real way to learn multiple styles, as yet... I suppose I _could_ allow the monk to start learning a new style once he reaches Initiate level in his existing style, if he wants to suffer MAD syndrome.



> While both present interesting options, I will have to weigh in for wisdom in this case. I think that intuition and understanding suits the nature of marital arts better than charisma. Also to compound my opinion I have some experience (though limited) with martial arts, and it seems to me that perception is perhaps the biggest component of any martial art.



I'm not sure which martial art you practice(d), but I played judo in college (I had to quit my senior year because I'd racked up too many injuries). Not all martial arts are created equal - judo, for example, is called "the gentle way" - it centers around throws, pins, chokeholds, and joint locks. There is no punching or kicking at all. Judo is very much a Dex-based martial art - it's all about balance and leverage, with a little Strength thrown in if you get into a grappling situation (it borrows a lot from wrestling too). Capoeira, a Brazilian martial art that strongly resembles a dance, is also Dex-based. Kung fu? Charisma. Sumo? Strength all the way. (I'm not exactly sure if sumo wresting is a martial art, but it's good example.) Tai chi is the only thing I can think of, off the top of my head, that's Wis-based. It's very self-centered (as in, focused on the body and its location and position in space), and very slow and precise.



> 3: It opens an option that might forge interesting in game combinations, the base monk class abilities based on wisdom and perception, but the fighting styles based on other attributes to flesh out what a given monk chooses to do with the world he perceives.



See, that's exactly why I went with differing abilities for each style - to present different RP opportunities for each individual monk.



> Martial arts are indeed based on perception and intuition rather than how good your smile looks.



Charisma is not just good looks. Charisma is also sense of self and strength of personality - it's why constructs (and mindless undead) have 1 Charisma, and objects have 0.



> 1. Do they get all the abilities for their rank? or do they have to pick. If they are expected to pick, some of them are better than others.



They have to choose. And yes, I know some are better - I'm working on that. As long as they aren't must-have abilities (like the Wind Style fast movement, before I removed it), I'm okay with it, by and large - you can choose lower-level abilities at higher levels, if you want.



> 2. Compass Points: West - most abilities are non-duration abilities, so this is kindof useless. except with wind, and even then it's not useful until youre a grandmaster.



Hmph. Any suggestions?



> 3. Awareness of Self: Do they get this while unconscious? its a result of their training, and they can't use it, so I would think other than Mountain's DR they would not.



No, and Mountain loses the DR too - it's as much a function of being able to ignore pain and shrug off damage as anything, and being unconscious doesn't enable you to do that.



> 4. Not all the schools presently have a default ability that they get. Mountain does, and maybe sea, but that's it.



I know. I'd like to add default abilities to all the schools, but I'll probably just drop Mountain's ability instead.



> Iron Fist: So this ability does NOTHING to non constructs/objects?



Yes... it just bypasses hardness if used against a construct or object. I'll fix the wording.



> ???: Does this damage the first object, or just the distanced object? What if your first object is a creature (which I see no real reason it should not be)



Have you ever seen someone strike a stack of blocks and break ONE block 3/4 of the way down the stack? That's what this is. (I've seen it, and it's really incredible, BTW.) I suppose you could channel the force through a living being.... I hadn't really thought about it.



> Rooted in the Earth: stack with the Awareness of Self DR? because it should, and by default it doesn't.



DR always overlaps.



> A permanent Earthsense would be a totally awesome ability - just throwing that out there. Maybe asa higher up ability or something.



Maybe as a PrC ability - not for the base monk. 



> Earthquake strike: should add the Monk's STR to the damage.



Good idea.



> Defensive Roll: making it a reflex save is kindof wind-like. maybe it would be better to make it wis-based (experience, and prediction instead of speed) and revolve around redirecting the attack as the explanation on how they take less damage.



Good call. I think I just C&P'ed the text without thinking about it.



> Fatiguing Strike: uses CHA right now, and that is probably an oversight.



Yeah.



> Relentless Waves: maybe you should specify the size of the object. if someone is using it on a wall, for example, it shouldnt be the whole wall, just a section.



Yeah. Let's say... an object up to one size larger per rank (a section of wall 10 feet square and 6 inches thick is Large; each foot of thickness increases the size by one.) 



> ???: specify that the 5 feet to redirect should allow "through" the monk's square, but to 5 ft behind them. The monk and the attacker should effectively switch squares in that case.



The monk sidesteps the attack, forcing the attacker to lunge forward and skewer his friend standing behind the monk? Nice. 



> I'm not familiar with Ki Rage or Stunning Fist so I'll look them up later.



Ki rage is identical to the barbarian's rage, except that the bonuses are Str and Dex instead of Str/Con. Stunning Fist is just the feat from the PHB. Now that I think about it, I might just take that out. Your comment about an Int-based style got me thinking... I could take Pain touch, Scorpion Fist, and Quivering Palm, along with Stunning Fist and maybe a couple other abilities (death attack?), and make them into an advanced style (a PrC), the Shadow Style. This would focus around disabling/crippling the opponent through precision strikes.



> Fireburst: This should be allowed to be worked into a flurry attack (though obviously would have to be the last attack for that to work)



Definitely. I could see someone delivering a quick series of blows followed by a powerful uppercut.



> Improvised Weapon: This makes fire come off as a bit of a drunken brawler instead of a martial artist, and I don't think it really fits.



Neither did I, really - I just tossed it in to fill a slot. I got the idea from the movie Iron Monkey (good movie, BTW), which is fairly wuxia. The protagonists (who are kung-fu experts) use various improvised weapons, like an umbrella, to beat their enemies silly. I'll drop it.



> The extra attacks should maybe be a defensive speed ability. Also they're not well defined as to how many extra attacks give what penalties and whatnot.



Which? The unarmed attacks from the flurry?



> ???: it shouldnt be 3x per day, I think this is the defining characteristic of the school. it should be limited in a non-use way, or the school should lack something else to compensate. the 3x per day should be more like once per round or so. Maybe make it eat up a move action as the limit, so while evading attacks they cant do a flurry.



A move action works. It'd be like the dodge action from Rifts - you can attempt to dodge an incoming attack, but you lose one of your actions to do so. Don't forget, though, that a 15th level monk can flurry as a standard action - this would make Wind monks especially dangerous.



> Rushing Wind: The size needs to vary depending on the monk's size, because they aren't all going to be medium creatures. do like a double/half thing depending, etc.



The size of the wind doesn't really matter, because the bullrush bonus is based on the monk's size. A 5-foot-wide corridor is easiest, because it conforms to the standard size of a square.



> Aspect of the Wind: How does one determine if they stop moving? I know players who would assume that means at the end of the round, so it needs to be more clearly defined. I can guess how you want it to work, but it would be better if you actually said. Change the wording of can't fly to 'doesn't gain the ability to fly', because if the monk has another means of flight, your raw would take it away.



Mm, good point. It should be "as long as the monk is in motion", with the implication that if he was moving at the end of his turn, he remains in that state unless he chooses not to move (or to stop moving) on his next turn. I'll fix it. And I'll fix the second part too.

BTW, I took this ability away with the plan to give it to the PrC Wind Style; I've bumped Cloudwalk to Grandmaster (with the ability to run on water) and put this one in its place:

*Whirlwind (Ex):* 3 + Dex bonus times per day, the monk can make a single attack at her highest base attack bonus against all opponents within her reach. She can make a 5-foot step before or during this attack. She does not gain the benefit of extra attacks from feats like Cleave or spells like haste.

Basically it's a greater whirlwind attack, but it fits the Wind Style to a T.

Thanks for all the feedback - I'll post the changes later tonight or tomorrow.


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## Sylrae (Jul 12, 2008)

Kerrick said:


> There's no real way to learn multiple styles, as yet... I suppose I _could_ allow the monk to start learning a new style once he reaches Initiate level in his existing style, if he wants to suffer MAD syndrome.



Just allow them to pursue a new school if they choose; even allow the ranks to stack, you just need a way to work out the difference between the non-ranked powers, because they can't just take all of thm, you know?




Kerrick said:


> They have to choose. And yes, I know some are better - I'm working on that. As long as they aren't must-have abilities (like the Wind Style fast movement, before I removed it), I'm okay with it, by and large - you can choose lower-level abilities at higher levels, if you want.



Sounds good.



Kerrick said:


> Hmph. Any suggestions?



Replace it with something new.  No suggestions as to with what yet, though.



Kerrick said:


> No, and Mountain loses the DR too - it's as much a function of being able to ignore pain and shrug off damage as anything, and being unconscious doesn't enable you to do that.



DR wouldnt be shrugging off pain, or they would still take the damage ans just wouldnt drop at 0 or incur penalties. The only explanation I have for the DR is effectively something like natural armor or something like a construct's DR... maybe it should be natural armor instead of DR...



Kerrick said:


> I know. I'd like to add default abilities to all the schools, but I'll probably just drop Mountain's ability instead.



That's unfortunate, the default abilities are cool, you just need more of them.




Kerrick said:


> Yes... it just bypasses hardness if used against a construct or object. I'll fix the wording.



 So hitting a live creature with it does no damage, you don't get to flurry, AND you only do a d6 damage? no monk in his right ming would take that. They'll do better without it.




Kerrick said:


> Have you ever seen someone strike a stack of blocks and break ONE block 3/4 of the way down the stack? That's what this is. (I've seen it, and it's really incredible, BTW.) I suppose you could channel the force through a living being.... I hadn't really thought about it.



 So the idea is you hit a solid object, the one you hit takes no damage, but something touching it x distance behind takes it instead?




Kerrick said:


> DR always overlaps.



Then it makes the DR the class gets instead of AC become useless. And where you're rooted in place, and can't move, you esentially would have to choose between a dex bonus to AC or the ability. effectively giving you an AC of 10? maybe I'm missing something.




Kerrick said:


> Maybe as a PrC ability - not for the base monk.



I think for a higher rank it could increase maybe. that would be awesome.




Kerrick said:


> The monk sidesteps the attack, forcing the attacker to lunge forward and skewer his friend standing behind the monk? Nice.



Of course, you could say the monk gives the attacker a friendly push along the way when he sidesteps as well since its a deflection, otherwise why doesnt the attacker just stop, right?




Kerrick said:


> I might just take that out. Your comment about an Int-based style got me thinking... I could take Pain touch, Scorpion Fist, and Quivering Palm, along with Stunning Fist and maybe a couple other abilities (death attack?), and make them into an advanced style (a PrC), the Shadow Style. This would focus around disabling/crippling the opponent through precision strikes.



Honestly, I don't think PrC is the way to go. a PrC that uses a different stat than whatever school the monk starts in would make the monk very weak, for one, and 2, that should totally just be a regular school, you just need abilities to flesh it out. it's totally awesome. Anything with a save or die blows though. Worst mechanic ever. However, a high level martial arts based petrification ability might be sweet. Have some paralysis, partial paralysis, maybe an attack that causes unconsciousness (non- magically induced sleep (works on elves)) something that disables the use of limbs, maybe something that renders the opponent flat footed for x time, etc. 




Kerrick said:


> Definitely. I could see someone delivering a quick series of blows followed by a powerful uppercut.



Sweet.




Kerrick said:


> Neither did I, really - I just tossed it in to fill a slot. I got the idea from the movie Iron Monkey (good movie, BTW), which is fairly wuxia. The protagonists (who are kung-fu experts) use various improvised weapons, like an umbrella, to beat their enemies silly. I'll drop it.



It's for the best  Put in something that gives you free attacks of opportunity against them somehow instead. And when I say free, I mean have it not count towards the standard attack of opportunity. And be triggered by somethign that wouldnt normally trigger it.




Kerrick said:


> Which? The unarmed attacks from the flurry?



Yeah, how many do they get? what do they lose for the extras? I'd probably drop this and give them something defensive. I dunno what exactly, but something. maybe an ability that allows dodging an attack in such a way that you end up Behind the opponent. Or a dodge ability that lowers their to-hit by 2 every miss from exertion. Cumulatively. and them get them back at a rate of 1 per round. Like as an expanded version of the existing dodge that you can take higher. - or come up with some other non-extra attack ability. I kindof see wind as being less about attacking and more about movility. and maybe nonlethal things. 




Kerrick said:


> A move action works. It'd be like the dodge action from Rifts - you can attempt to dodge an incoming attack, but you lose one of your actions to do so. Don't forget, though, that a 15th level monk can flurry as a standard action - this would make Wind monks especially dangerous.



This, I like.




Kerrick said:


> The size of the wind doesn't really matter, because the bullrush bonus is based on the monk's size. A 5-foot-wide corridor is easiest, because it conforms to the standard size of a square.







Kerrick said:


> Mm, good point. It should be "as long as the monk is in motion", with the implication that if he was moving at the end of his turn, he remains in that state unless he chooses not to move (or to stop moving) on his next turn. I'll fix it. And I'll fix the second part too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Kerrick (Jul 12, 2008)

> Just allow them to pursue a new school if they choose; even allow the ranks to stack, you just need a way to work out the difference between the non-ranked powers, because they can't just take all of thm, you know?



How about half the ranks from your previous style (round down) count toward the new one? New martial arts are easier to learn once you've gotten the rudiments of an existing style (for the most part), so some stacking would be logical, but it would avoid too much stacking.



> So hitting a live creature with it does no damage, you don't get to flurry, AND you only do a d6 damage? no monk in his right ming would take that. They'll do better without it.



Wrong on both counts. It deals PLUS 1d6 damage to ANY target, living or not, which also bypasses DR/hardness. That's a HUGE benefit for any monk of less than 16th level (when they get ki strike adamantine). It does become less effective at higher levels, though, when they get more attacks and can deal more damage. 



> So the idea is you hit a solid object, the one you hit takes no damage, but something touching it x distance behind takes it instead?



Precisely.



> Then it makes the DR the class gets instead of AC become useless. And where you're rooted in place, and can't move, you esentially would have to choose between a dex bonus to AC or the ability. effectively giving you an AC of 10? maybe I'm missing something.



Huh? Dex bonus to AC isn't DR. He would still gain his Dex bonus, AND his dodge bonus from Awareness of Self (because he's not immobilized, helpless, or unconscious), AND have DR 10/- on top of it. I don't see the problem.



> I think for a higher rank it could increase maybe. that would be awesome.



Maybe I could increase it to 1 round/level at Grandmaster. I'm just worried about someone spamming it, and I seriously believe that having constant tremorsense out to 100 ft. (at 20th level) is just a BIT overpowered.



> Honestly, I don't think PrC is the way to go. a PrC that uses a different stat than whatever school the monk starts in would make the monk very weak, for one, and 2, that should totally just be a regular school, you just need abilities to flesh it out. it's totally awesome. Anything with a save or die blows though. Worst mechanic ever.



I had that style - Sun and Moon. Everyone said it didn't fit, so I cut it. I do agree, though, that it'd be better served as a base style rather than a PrC style.



> However, a high level martial arts based petrification ability might be sweet. Have some paralysis, partial paralysis, maybe an attack that causes unconsciousness (non- magically induced sleep (works on elves)) something that disables the use of limbs, maybe something that renders the opponent flat footed for x time, etc.



Very good ideas here. I've already got disabling limbs (that's Scorpion Fist), and I was thinking about paralysis, though I thought it'd be too SoD. Partial paralysis is good, or a slow effect; dazing blow, blinding strike, and a couple others I've still got. I could definitely do this.



> Put in something that gives you free attacks of opportunity against them somehow instead. And when I say free, I mean have it not count towards the standard attack of opportunity. And be triggered by somethign that wouldnt normally trigger it.



Hmm. I plan to work on refining exactly what causes AoOs (cause that section's a mess), so that would have to wait a bit. I was thinking about making an ability that would let the monk reflect a melee attack back on its source, but it might be overpowered (and hard to do right, mechanically).



> Yeah, how many do they get? what do they lose for the extras?



Hmm. I know it's supposed to be in there somewhere, but I can't find where it says that Wind Style gets an extra flurry attack. I know I'd intended for it to be like the original monk's progression (so the extra attack would be at their highest BAB, -2).



> maybe an ability that allows dodging an attack in such a way that you end up Behind the opponent.



That would be a good Acolyte-level ability - you can burn a move action to dodge the opponent and end up in a flanking position (which is still adjacent to the foe - he can't move more than 5 feet, as opposed to the Master-level ability that lets you move 10 feet).



> I kindof see wind as being less about attacking and more about movility. and maybe nonlethal things.



A monk who runs around constantly dodging stuff and doing nothing else would get boring after awhile. It works great for TV or movies, but not in a game. Giving them reduced damage is enough to balance out their speed, IMO.



> While I like the whirlwind, I dont like the idea of making the monks go into prestige classes that are just slight variations on their existing school.



It's not so much a "slight variation" as it is an "access to greater power". All the wuxia-like supernatural and elemental abilities that I had originally are intended for the PrCs - so people who want to play a nonmagical martial artist can use the base class, and people who want to have monks shooting fire from their hands and calling lightning from the sky can use the PrC. 



> And where the monks have to pick which ability they want, they should get more opportunities to pick.



You want to give them MORE abilities? What, they don't have enough already? Seriously.



> and they should get Grandmaster earlier, and additional rank powers afterwards and before that don't necessarily change your rank



Think about this for a minute. If they get Grandmaster earlier, what's the incentive to stay in the class? That's the whole point of having it be a high-level thing. If the player can get it early (say, 12th level), there's little reason NOT to go PrC or multiclass.



> ...particularly if you are going to make them specialize into prestige classes(which I think are not a good idea).



I'm not _making_ them specialize. Like I said above, it's unlocking a different kind of power. PrCs as a whole are optional, and the styles granted by these ones in specific are definitely optional, as I said above. I'll write up some preliminary stuff this weekend so you can see.



> feats are lighter than a whole PrC, which I think is too much investment and too much deviation from the class. Possibly some feats that allow extra abilities from your school as well, or something like that.



I could see burning a feat to gain an extra style ability. The abilities I want to put into the PrCs, though, would be a bit much for feats. Don't forget, you only get 7 feats over the course of 20 levels.

Oh, speaking of feats... I keep meaning to toss this out, and I keep forgetting. I was thinking about making the bonus feat list specific for each style - say, 7-8 feats for each (they can choose 4). I couldn't really see a Mountain Style monk picking Mobility, or a Sea monk taking Diehard.


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## Sylrae (Jul 13, 2008)

Kerrick said:


> How about half the ranks from your previous style (round down) count toward the new one? New martial arts are easier to learn once you've gotten the rudiments of an existing style (for the most part), so some stacking would be logical, but it would avoid too much stacking.



 so then you can only get to initiate in the second one? I would think it would be better to let them just add it wholesale, but they would be limited in their max rank. so like. each new school they take pushes them 1 down. a second school makes them redo the initiate level, but after that they can freely alternate between the two. then theyre still limited, but not quite as much. They aren't getting any extras, cause they still have to pick one or the other. and then they'll lose access to the max rank. The issue is how do you do the non-rank based bonuses? like ac progression, or like base abilities?



Kerrick said:


> Wrong on both counts. It deals PLUS 1d6 damage to ANY target, living or not, which also bypasses DR/hardness. That's a HUGE benefit for any monk of less than 16th level (when they get ki strike adamantine). It does become less effective at higher levels, though, when they get more attacks and can deal more damage.



 That was very much not clear. it sounded like it did ONLY 1d6, and ONLY did it to constructs/objects. maybe you should reword that.




Kerrick said:


> Huh? Dex bonus to AC isn't DR. He would still gain his Dex bonus, AND his dodge bonus from Awareness of Self (because he's not immobilized, helpless, or unconscious), AND have DR 10/- on top of it. I don't see the problem.



 I thought the rooted to the earth was an ability that depended on you not moving. as for the DR issue, if the rooted ability essentially overlaps it and makes it useless, maybe it should be dropped. Natural armor could work better than DR anyways. just take the DR value and make it natural armor instead of awareness of self.



Kerrick said:


> Maybe I could increase it to 1 round/level at Grandmaster. I'm just worried about someone spamming it, and I seriously believe that having constant tremorsense out to 100 ft. (at 20th level) is just a BIT overpowered.



A player of mine doing character creation today, and tremorsense is cheap. Theres a wizards template that gives tremorsense and a whole bunch of other stuff for +1 or +2 LA. it was permanent, but only had 60 ft range, not that it really matters. but it is a sight ability and those work in increments of 60 



Kerrick said:


> I had that style - Sun and Moon. Everyone said it didn't fit, so I cut it. I do agree, though, that it'd be better served as a base style rather than a PrC style.



It wasn't the pressure points that didnt fit, it was all the positive/negative energy and the undead stuff.



Kerrick said:


> Very good ideas here. I've already got disabling limbs (that's Scorpion Fist), and I was thinking about paralysis, though I thought it'd be too SoD. Partial paralysis is good, or a slow effect; dazing blow, blinding strike, and a couple others I've still got. I could definitely do this.






Kerrick said:


> Hmm. I plan to work on refining exactly what causes AoOs (cause that section's a mess), so that would have to wait a bit. I was thinking about making an ability that would let the monk reflect a melee attack back on its source, but it might be overpowered (and hard to do right, mechanically).



I do these totally different, so I hear you. here's how I do them. AoOs are just a single free attack ANYone can make in ANY round against any opponent that cannot defend themself. You can make them from a range, etc. But, making an attack of opportunity leaves yourself open to an attack of opportunity from anyone who is NOT unable to defend themself. and it's not a queue, it's a stack. which means, after you declare, then someone else declares, then someone else, and the last person to declare is the first to get to attack.



Kerrick said:


> A monk who runs around constantly dodging stuff and doing nothing else would get boring after awhile. It works great for TV or movies, but not in a game. Giving them reduced damage is enough to balance out their speed, IMO.



 You're probably right,.



Kerrick said:


> It's not so much a "slight variation" as it is an "access to greater power". All the wuxia-like supernatural and elemental abilities that I had originally are intended for the PrCs - so people who want to play a nonmagical martial artist can use the base class, and people who want to have monks shooting fire from their hands and calling lightning from the sky can use the PrC.
> 
> You want to give them MORE abilities? What, they don't have enough already? Seriously.
> 
> ...



It seemed like you were making them HAVE to PrC. alright then. some of the wind abilities are pretty wuxia though. maybe you should shy away from the elemental attacks, like the ranges wind attack. I kindof forgot the goal was less wuxia for a bit there. and for the whirlwind, it shouldnt be any bigger a radius than reach. cause obviously they have to physically hit them.



Kerrick said:


> I could see burning a feat to gain an extra style ability. The abilities I want to put into the PrCs, though, would be a bit much for feats. Don't forget, you only get 7 feats over the course of 20 levels.



riight. houserules  I use the pathfinder variant on this. you get a feat at every odd level. Plus when we play FR (Most of the time) you get a regional feat. plus for every 4 levels in your favored class you get a bonus feat. that's umm. 16. if you go all favored, or 11, otherwise.



Kerrick said:


> Oh, speaking of feats... I keep meaning to toss this out, and I keep forgetting. I was thinking about making the bonus feat list specific for each style - say, 7-8 feats for each (they can choose 4). I couldn't really see a Mountain Style monk picking Mobility, or a Sea monk taking Diehard.



 Good idea.

and It's not so bad to have grandmaster be kindof wuxia, the old air ability was fine, it was believable as being the guy just moving so fast he's hard to see. kindof reminds me of the afterimage technique from dragon ball


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## Kerrick (Jul 13, 2008)

> so then you can only get to initiate in the second one? I would think it would be better to let them just add it wholesale, but they would be limited in their max rank. so like. each new school they take pushes them 1 down. a second school makes them redo the initiate level, but after that they can freely alternate between the two.



Huh? I'm not following. Seems like you're saying the same thing I did.



> The issue is how do you do the non-rank based bonuses? like ac progression, or like base abilities?



Base abilities are easy - whichever ability you use, you use the stat that modifies it. AC progression... hmm. Could just go with the better of the two, and trust the DM not to allow weird combos like Mountain/Wind Style.



> That was very much not clear. it sounded like it did ONLY 1d6, and ONLY did it to constructs/objects. maybe you should reword that.



I did:

The monk can channel her ki into her unarmed strike. She can make a single attack as a standard action; if it hits, it deals +1d6 points of damage. If she is attacking a construct, she bypasses 5 points of DR per rank she has in this style; if an object, she bypasses 5 points of hardness per rank. If the attack misses, that use of the ability is wasted.

Seems pretty clear to me.



> I thought the rooted to the earth was an ability that depended on you not moving.



You can take a 5-foot step, and "immobilized" means "unable to move of your own volition". Dwarven Defenders get a dodge bonus while in a defensive stance, which is basically what this is.



> Natural armor could work better than DR anyways. just take the DR value and make it natural armor instead of awareness of self.



DR works better in this instance, IMO - it's the ability to shrug off damage, not a thickening of the skin.



> Theres a wizards template that gives tremorsense and a whole bunch of other stuff for +1 or +2 LA. it was permanent, but only had 60 ft range, not that it really matters. but it is a sight ability and those work in increments of 60.



Huh. I did some digging, and it appears tremorsense is a bit cheaper than I'd thought. We could make it permanent and see how it works in play.



> It wasn't the pressure points that didnt fit, it was all the positive/negative energy and the undead stuff.



Oh, right, right. The new Shadow style is pretty much done - it was rather easy, since most of the abilities were already there. I'll add it to the second post. The advanced (PrC, more magical, whatever) version will use Shadow energy and have some Shadowdancer-like abilities, nothing undead-related.



> AoOs are just a single free attack ANYone can make in ANY round against any opponent that cannot defend themself. You can make them from a range, etc. But, making an attack of opportunity leaves yourself open to an attack of opportunity from anyone who is NOT unable to defend themself. and it's not a queue, it's a stack. which means, after you declare, then someone else declares, then someone else, and the last person to declare is the first to get to attack.



First part makes sense, but not the second. In the huge melees, it seems like it'd just slow everything down while everyone resolves their special attack.



> some of the wind abilities are pretty wuxia though.



That's why I removed Aspect of Wind. 



> maybe you should shy away from the elemental attacks, like the ranges wind attack.



It's not wind, but ki energy - the description specifically says that. I actually got that from an old episde of Kung Fu, the TV show (the new series, not the old one). There was an episode where the master taught his student how to do a "ki push" (I don't think they had an actual name for it) where they could move small objects slightly at a distance. I just adapted and improved on it - there's a reason it just does a bullrush attack, not blows things along.



> and for the whirlwind, it shouldnt be any bigger a radius than reach. cause obviously they have to physically hit them.



It isn't. The only difference from a normal whirlwind attack is that the monk can take a 5-foot step anytime during the action.



> and It's not so bad to have grandmaster be kindof wuxia, the old air ability was fine, it was believable as being the guy just moving so fast he's hard to see. kindof reminds me of the afterimage technique from dragon ball



I was thinking the guy from Chronicles of Riddick, but it's likely pretty much the same thing. Aspect of Wind is just supernatural/magical enough that it didn't quite fit with the other stuff, even for a Grandmaster. Cloudwalk is semi-wuxia, but still believable and not that supernatural.

On a side note: I watched Kiss of the Dragon (Jet Li) last night on TV... and I noted that he uses a lot of improvised weapons. Jackie Chan does the same thing - I'm not sure if it's something in Chinese kung fu, or just cinematic license. I think it could work, if it were done properly - I mean, you have a good point about it seeming more like a Drunken Master thing, and I agree, but it really seems like a Sun Style monk would be able to pick up a nearby weapon-like object and use it to beat people's asses.


----------



## Sylrae (Jul 13, 2008)

Kerrick said:


> Huh? I'm not following. Seems like you're saying the same thing I did.



You said maxrank = rank/2, I said maxrank = rank/1.



Kerrick said:


> Base abilities are easy - whichever ability you use, you use the stat that modifies it. AC progression... hmm. Could just go with the better of the two, and trust the DM not to allow weird combos like Mountain/Wind Style.



hmm. I think alternating every othr level would be the only way to do AC, well, unless they completely switch over, and then from that point on they gt AC from the 2nd school.




Kerrick said:


> Seems pretty clear to me.



 Didn't see the new +.




Kerrick said:


> You can take a 5-foot step, and "immobilized" means "unable to move of your own volition". Dwarven Defenders get a dodge bonus while in a defensive stance, which is basically what this is.



Alright





Kerrick said:


> DR works better in this instance, IMO - it's the ability to shrug off damage, not a thickening of the skin.



 I think DR is more of a supernatural resistance to certain (or all) types of damage. that's the way its used for just about everything. And the natural armor in this case wouldnt be a thickening of skin, just toughening, or everything.



Kerrick said:


> Huh. I did some digging, and it appears tremorsense is a bit cheaper than I'd thought. We could make it permanent and see how it works in play.



 Cool



Kerrick said:


> Oh, right, right. The new Shadow style is pretty much done - it was rather easy, since most of the abilities were already there. I'll add it to the second post. The advanced (PrC, more magical, whatever) version will use Shadow energy and have some Shadowdancer-like abilities, nothing undead-related.



Awesome



Kerrick said:


> First part makes sense, but not the second. In the huge melees, it seems like it'd just slow everything down while everyone resolves their special attack.



it's like "the stack" in magic the gathering, regarding instant spells.

1. Jimmy goes to attack Bob, who is unconscious. It's a risky procedure that he has to do quickly, because he's not defending himself from the conscious people around him while he attacks jimmy.
2. Ed, one of Bob's friends, sees what Jimmy is about to do, and attacks Jimmy with his axe to try any prevent Jimmy from Killing Bob. He can't watch his own back while he does this.
3. David, one of jimmy's friends, goes to shoot David in the back before he can hit Jimmy.
------------Declaration of actions finishes------
3. David does what he said he would.
2. If Ed is not prevented from doing what he said he would, he does it.
1. Jimmy is not prevented from doing what he said he would, he attacks Bob.

It's not really confusing, and I think it's the best way to do AoOs, even if you use standard initiative (which I don't but I'll detail that in a second). Attacks of Opportunity are something that is done in the heat of the moment. You could always use your standard attack and not the extra one against the undefended opponent, and then you dont give people the chance to hit you with it. It's not particularly slower. everyone needs to say what they're doing in a normal round anyways, the difference, is that the player gets to react o those slower than himself.

You could tie it into stats a bit better if you want, and instead of the order they are executed in being based on who did what in what order, it could be based on initiative modifier.

As for how I do initiative, you roll your initiative as normal, but then you do like above kindof. the slowest player says what they are going to do, then the next slowest, going all the way up to the fastest. Faster players are given the chance to react to slower players actions. And it doesn't significantly slow down combat. But I haven't tested it in a combat with more than 30 creatures or anythign like that yet 



Kerrick said:


> That's why I removed Aspect of Wind.
> 
> It's not wind, but ki energy - the description specifically says that. I actually got that from an old episde of Kung Fu, the TV show (the new series, not the old one). There was an episode where the master taught his student how to do a "ki push" (I don't think they had an actual name for it) where they could move small objects slightly at a distance. I just adapted and improved on it - there's a reason it just does a bullrush attack, not blows things along.



"Ki Energy" or wind, it's not somethign a real martial artist can do, and I actually think it's considerably more wuxia than Aspect of the Wind. that was my point. You removed one semi-wuxia ability, and have one that is More Wuxia still.



Kerrick said:


> It isn't. The only difference from a normal whirlwind attack is that the monk can take a 5-foot step anytime during the action.



Good Stuff then.



Kerrick said:


> I was thinking the guy from Chronicles of Riddick, but it's likely pretty much the same thing. Aspect of Wind is just supernatural/magical enough that it didn't quite fit with the other stuff, even for a Grandmaster. Cloudwalk is semi-wuxia, but still believable and not that supernatural.



Cloudwalk is fine, and actually I think its really cool. I don't think its big enough to be a grandmaster ability though. Master sounds like a better placement. As stated above, although Aspect of the Wind is wuxia, the 'KI' energy push thing is more wuxia.



Kerrick said:


> On a side note: I watched Kiss of the Dragon (Jet Li) last night on TV... and I noted that he uses a lot of improvised weapons. Jackie Chan does the same thing - I'm not sure if it's something in Chinese kung fu, or just cinematic license. I think it could work, if it were done properly - I mean, you have a good point about it seeming more like a Drunken Master thing, and I agree, but it really seems like a Sun Style monk would be able to pick up a nearby weapon-like object and use it to beat people's asses.



That wouldn't be a school dependent thig, that would be just a chinese cinematic license thing, or at best, just an "anyone can do it" thing. An Improv weapon feat would do it just fine, and I think there is one.


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## Kerrick (Jul 15, 2008)

> You said maxrank = rank/2, I said maxrank = rank/1.



So... if I took Mountain Style to Initiate rank and then started learning to Ocean Style, when I gained 14th level I'd be Master in both?



> hmm. I think alternating every othr level would be the only way to do AC, well, unless they completely switch over, and then from that point on they gt AC from the 2nd school.



What happens when your second style is lower than the first (like Sun vs. Mountain)?



> Didn't see the new +.



That was always there - it was just hiding. 



> I think DR is more of a supernatural resistance to certain (or all) types of damage.



Only DR /magic and /alignment are supernatural - all other types of DR are extraordinary. It's easy enough to house rule if you want.



> "Ki Energy" or wind, it's not somethign a real martial artist can do, and I actually think it's considerably more wuxia than Aspect of the Wind. that was my point. You removed one semi-wuxia ability, and have one that is More Wuxia still.



People can't run along tiny tree branches or water, nor can they magically heal themselves either.  I'll tone it down, though - instead of a corridor of rushing wind, I'll just make it more like Guile's sonic boom, where the monk does a semi-telekinetic ki push that targets a creature within 20 feet.



> Cloudwalk is fine, and actually I think its really cool. I don't think its big enough to be a grandmaster ability though. Master sounds like a better placement.



Yeah, I'll probably move those things back where they were. I was playing around with the PrCs, and I'm not sure how to do the progression - I mean, does it go back to the four-tier thing with new powers, or what? Besides that, I'd have to come up with more things to fill in the dead levels in between the style abilities, and I just don't feel like it. I'll finish the main monk and leave those for a "maybe later" thing.



> An Improv weapon feat would do it just fine, and I think there is one.



Not in the PHB. There's probably one in one of the fighter splats.

Also, I've added the Shadow Style... I was going to do it yesterday, but ENWorld was having fits, so I gave up.


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## Sylrae (Jul 15, 2008)

Kerrick said:


> So... if I took Mountain Style to Initiate rank and then started learning to Ocean Style, when I gained 14th level I'd be Master in both?



Right. You'd still have the same number of abilities though, you'd have to pick one ability from all of your options at each rank.



Kerrick said:


> What happens when your second style is lower than the first (like Sun vs. Mountain)?



Then if you want to gain further benefits of both, you drop what you've got and go 50/50 between them, every other level, evenly split. or 33/33/33 if youre crazy. If you don't want to do that, then from that point on you can't learn abilities from your old school, and from this point on you only get the stuff from the new school added to your class. Also, each new school would lower your max rank by 1.




Kerrick said:


> That was always there - it was just hiding.



 My bad. . . 


Only DR /magic and /alignment are supernatural - all other types of DR are extraordinary. It's easy enough to house rule if you want.




Kerrick said:


> People can't run along tiny tree branches or water, nor can they magically heal themselves either.  I'll tone it down, though - instead of a corridor of rushing wind, I'll just make it more like Guile's sonic boom, where the monk does a semi-telekinetic ki push that targets a creature within 20 feet.



the difference is that for unrealistic things in a martial arts class I can appreciate unusual WITHIN the martial artist, or unusual things they can do with contact via attacks, but I just can't get behind ranged energy weapons. Kamehameha is not a real martial arts technique. Same with Hadouken, Sonic Boom, Liu Kang's Fireballs, Megaman's Energy Blasts, Ranma's Moko Takabisha, Ryoga's Shishi Hokodan, or any other energy weapon shown by a martial artist. Amusing in a videogame/anime? yes. Believable martial arts technique, even when you stretch reality? no.




Kerrick said:


> Yeah, I'll probably move those things back where they were. I was playing around with the PrCs, and I'm not sure how to do the progression - I mean, does it go back to the four-tier thing with new powers, or what? Besides that, I'd have to come up with more things to fill in the dead levels in between the style abilities, and I just don't feel like it. I'll finish the main monk and leave those for a "maybe later" thing.



Yeah. get base classes finished first.



Kerrick said:


> Not in the PHB. There's probably one in one of the fighter splats.



I think it's complete warrior but I dont wanna go check.



Kerrick said:


> Also, I've added the Shadow Style... I was going to do it yesterday, but ENWorld was having fits, so I gave up.



Sweet.


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## Kerrick (Jul 16, 2008)

> Right. You'd still have the same number of abilities though, you'd have to pick one ability from all of your options at each rank.



Umm... no. If I were a black belt in jujitsu and started learning karate, I'd have to start at the bottom. Knowing jujitsu would help me advance more quickly, since they use a lot of the same moves, but you don't automatically gain a black belt in karate too. That's why I suggested that half the ranks in your old style (jujitsu, in this case) be applied to the new style (karate) - it simulates the overlap of disciplines and the ability to pick things up more quickly, without being too much. I'll also have to note that these are "virtual ranks" - the extra ranks you gain from the other style don't enable you to choose new abilities; they just add to durations and compass abilities.



> Then if you want to gain further benefits of both, you drop what you've got and go 50/50 between them, every other level, evenly split.



That could work, I guess - it's the best way to do it. 



> the difference is that for unrealistic things in a martial arts class I can appreciate unusual WITHIN the martial artist, or unusual things they can do with contact via attacks, but I just can't get behind ranged energy weapons.



Eh. I can replace it with Cloudwalk and move Aspect of Wind back to Grandmaster.


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## Sylrae (Jul 17, 2008)

Kerrick said:


> Umm... no. If I were a black belt in jujitsu and started learning karate, I'd have to start at the bottom. Knowing jujitsu would help me advance more quickly, since they use a lot of the same moves, but you don't automatically gain a black belt in karate too. That's why I suggested that half the ranks in your old style (jujitsu, in this case) be applied to the new style (karate) - it simulates the overlap of disciplines and the ability to pick things up more quickly, without being too much. I'll also have to note that these are "virtual ranks" - the extra ranks you gain from the other style don't enable you to choose new abilities; they just add to durations and compass abilities.



So. you just said if you pick up a second school, you can never pass initiate in either school. that totally makes it not worth the effort, because it effectively means you'll never get ANY of the good abilities.
Not only that, but learning stuff from another school doesn't allow you to learn any of their abilities? So all you get is their Armor class? That makes it pointless. If I'm a practitioner of the Shadow school, and I start learning from the mountain school, I'm going to want to learn Iron Fist. If I can never learn any of the techniques, then I'm not really studying that school, am I? 
The Max rank reduced by one (my alternative idea), would mean that you could never reach grandmaster, but you would be able to take abilities from either school up to master. (and reach master in both, at the time you would normally reach grandmaster).
And restarting at rank 1 again (instead of just repeating a rank) kills you unless you take it early in the game. Thats why when they revised feats that do things like add to your hit dice, the changes are now retroactive. It shouldnt matter WHICH level you take things at, or which order you took them in, if two people take the same things then one shouldnt be penalized for not planning out levels 1-20 before the game started. that sort of penalty just encourages munchkining, and discourages character development. With your Idea of going ALL the way back to the beginning, if I'm any rank higher than the lowest then learning from a new school is pointless.

Also, Initiate sounds like the lowest rank and Acolyte sounds higher. It's kindof confusing. O.O

I dunno.

RSVP

~Darkholme


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## Kerrick (Jul 19, 2008)

> So. you just said if you pick up a second school, you can never pass initiate in either school. that totally makes it not worth the effort, because it effectively means you'll never get ANY of the good abilities.



Sure you could - if you went past 20th level.



> Not only that, but learning stuff from another school doesn't allow you to learn any of their abilities?



Huh? Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying. If you train in a new school, you can choose which school to gain the abilities from when you gain the proper level (8th, 14th, 20th).

I was thinking about this, and I see where you're coming from - the PC would be assumed to be training in both styles more or less equally. He would only be able to choose from one style when picking abilities upon gaining a new rank, though - giving them two abilities would ensure that every monk would train in two styles. Adding the feat that lets you choose a new ability will balance this out.



> The Max rank reduced by one (my alternative idea), would mean that you could never reach grandmaster, but you would be able to take abilities from either school up to master. (and reach master in both, at the time you would normally reach grandmaster).






> And restarting at rank 1 again (instead of just repeating a rank) kills you unless you take it early in the game.



You can't have it both ways, though - either you can automatically start at Initiate rank in the second style (due to cross-training and existing experience) and can advance to Grandmaster, or you can start at Acolyte and go to Master. I don't see how you can start at a higher rank and go to Master and have it work properly. I'm assuming that each time you gain a rank, it works for BOTH styles - as I said above, it's assumed that you're training in both simultaneously. It's like skills - you gain a number of skill points to advance multiple skills at the same time.



> Also, Initiate sounds like the lowest rank and Acolyte sounds higher. It's kindof confusing.



Acolyte and Initiate are basically the same thing, but I usually see Initiate placed higher on the ladder - an Acolyte is someone who knows next to nothing and usually has little to no access to anything special; an Initiate has usually gone through some kind of ritual or rite of passage and has a mark to denote his status/rank and additional responsibilities/duties/privileges. Effectively, you've been "initiated" into the group/organization/guild/whatever.


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## Sylrae (Jul 19, 2008)

Kerrick said:


> Sure you could - if you went past 20th level.



Few games go all the way up to 20, let alone past 20. In alot of games, once thy hit 20, there may be no epic.



Kerrick said:


> Huh? Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying. If you train in a new school, you can choose which school to gain the abilities from when you gain the proper level (8th, 14th, 20th).



the idea. if you train to acolyte, then pick up a new school, you do acolyte again. then you work your way up. so at 18, youd be master. and thats in both schools. however, at each rank uppage, you would still only get ONE ability, but you could pick from either school.



Kerrick said:


> I was thinking about this, and I see where you're coming from - the PC would be assumed to be training in both styles more or less equally. He would only be able to choose from one style when picking abilities upon gaining a new rank, though - giving them two abilities would ensure that every monk would train in two styles. Adding the feat that lets you choose a new ability will balance this out.



 Thats basically what I was talking about. And a feat to take an extra monk ability would be cool.



Kerrick said:


> You can't have it both ways, though - either you can automatically start at Initiate rank in the second style (due to cross-training and existing experience) and can advance to Grandmaster, or you can start at Acolyte and go to Master. I don't see how you can start at a higher rank and go to Master and have it work properly. I'm assuming that each time you gain a rank, it works for BOTH styles - as I said above, it's assumed that you're training in both simultaneously. It's like skills - you gain a number of skill points to advance multiple skills at the same time.



Sortof yeah. both schools advance, and then you get to pick one of the abilities from either list.



Kerrick said:


> Acolyte and Initiate are basically the same thing, but I usually see Initiate placed higher on the ladder - an Acolyte is someone who knows next to nothing and usually has little to no access to anything special; an Initiate has usually gone through some kind of ritual or rite of passage and has a mark to denote his status/rank and additional responsibilities/duties/privileges. Effectively, you've been "initiated" into the group/organization/guild/whatever.



Alrighty. I would assume an initiate has just been initiated, and an acolyte was initiated a while ago but is still low ranked.

You could also allow the option to dump an individual feat to grab an ability from any other school up to your rank.

The idea is you dont have multiple ranks for each school, you have one rank overall. so picking up a new school completely and doing 2 of them would just make you repeat one to stop it from being overpowered.

and then, you could allow some other sort of penalty to completely convert from one school to another. This would be a smaller penalty, but they would never be able to take new abilities from their original school.

I think Ideally you would allow all three methods of cross schooling. Then you can dabble, advance in 2, or change to a new style completely.


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## Kerrick (Jul 20, 2008)

Sylrae said:


> Few games go all the way up to 20, let alone past 20. In alot of games, once thy hit 20, there may be no epic.



True. A lot of that is because epic play sucks, but I'm working on that. 



> the idea. if you train to acolyte, then pick up a new school, you do acolyte again. then you work your way up. so at 18, youd be master. and thats in both schools. however, at each rank uppage, you would still only get ONE ability, but you could pick from either school.



But... you said "And restarting at rank 1 again (instead of just repeating a rank) kills you unless you take it early in the game." I'm totally confused now.



> Alrighty. I would assume an initiate has just been initiated, and an acolyte was initiated a while ago but is still low ranked.



No.. you can join but not be "initiated" until a later time - after you've completed a minimum term of training/service, you've done something worthy, or whatever. It's like being involved in a secret society - you can join, and you know some of what's going on, but until you've been truly initiated, you don't get access to the secret hideout, learn the secret handshake, or get the special decoder ring.



> You could also allow the option to dump an individual feat to grab an ability from any other school up to your rank.



Not unless they're trained in that style. You can't just learn a move from a random martial art - you have to build up to it, because a lot of the time there are lesser maneuvers you have to learn first.



> The idea is you dont have multiple ranks for each school, you have one rank overall.



... Why? Every martial art ever created has ranks.



> so picking up a new school completely and doing 2 of them would just make you repeat one to stop it from being overpowered.
> 
> and then, you could allow some other sort of penalty to completely convert from one school to another. This would be a smaller penalty, but they would never be able to take new abilities from their original school.
> 
> I think Ideally you would allow all three methods of cross schooling. Then you can dabble, advance in 2, or change to a new style completely.



You've totally lost me again.


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## Sylrae (Jul 23, 2008)

Kerrick said:


> True. A lot of that is because epic play sucks, but I'm working on that.



Epic Play is largely unnecessary. Not all campaigns revolve around fighting demigods, and not all campaigns should. I've never had a game go above 18, and about 60% of the games I've played don't pass 15. Not everyone has rapid leveling. Getting from 3-5 often takes about 4 sessions. At 1 per week, that's a month. Levels are a once every 2-3 weeks you get one, type of thing, in many games. Getting to 20, from level one, is between 8.6 and a 13.3 months. Most games don't last that long. (we dont usually start at level 1 though, but level 20 is still likely a 7-10 month campaign)




Kerrick said:


> But... you said "And restarting at rank 1 again (instead of just repeating a rank) kills you unless you take it early in the game." I'm totally confused now.



OK.
I'm a martial artist. I'm an initiate (level 8). If I have to start at acolyte again, It would be pointless to choose my ability for level 14 from my new school if it has to come from acolyte. If you add only gaining access to the lowest rank of abilities to a lowered maximum, that means at 18 I reach master, and my acolyte abilities reach initiate. totally useless.




Kerrick said:


> No.. you can join but not be "initiated" until a later time - after you've completed a minimum term of training/service, you've done something worthy, or whatever. It's like being involved in a secret society - you can join, and you know some of what's going on, but until you've been truly initiated, you don't get access to the secret hideout, learn the secret handshake, or get the special decoder ring.



 Alrighty then.




Kerrick said:


> Not unless they're trained in that style. You can't just learn a move from a random martial art - you have to build up to it, because a lot of the time there are lesser maneuvers you have to learn first.



The basics are mostly the same. Thats why one school can take a technique from a different school and add it to itself. If youre blowing a feat on it, clearly you're studying for it, but you arent learning the whole school, youre learning just enough to adapt the technique into the school youre in.



Kerrick said:


> ... Why? Every martial art ever created has ranks.



Having separate ranks for each martial art just overcomplicates things in this case.



Kerrick said:


> You've totally lost me again.



ok. Ideally, I would implement 3 methods of cross schooling.
1. Dabbling: You go all in one school, but you can blow a feat to learn an ability from another school youre not in, no higher than your rank. You have taken the time to learn this one technique, but youre not in the school. So you just get the one ability.
2. Dual Schooling: You repeat a single rank, so if you do it at level 8, you repeat acolyte for max choice options. You can learn any ability up to that rank in either school. This is the martial artist studying 2 actual schools. AC 50/50 split between them, and they get both sets of default abilities. for Speed, it's halfway between the 2 schools.
3. Conversion: Doable once, you stop learning your old school in favor of a different school. From this point on you can only learn abilities from the new school, not the old one. Your rank remains unchanged. This has to be done before attaining Master in a school. You keep all your old abilities from the old school, and you cannot switch them. You lose the default ability of your old school, and gain the default ability of the new one. Your speed and AC remain the same, but from that point on they progress as though in the new school.

When you change schools in real life, you dont always start at the beginning, alot of the time they will place you based on what you already can do from another school. Often its just a lateral transfer.


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## Kerrick (Jul 24, 2008)

> Epic Play is largely unnecessary. Not all campaigns revolve around fighting demigods, and not all campaigns should.



Epic play is hardly about fighting demigods. I'm not sure where you got that idea. At its core, it's simply fighting bigger and badder enemies, none of which need to have any kind of divinity. I've played up to 30th level, and I had a blast (faults in the epic system notwithstanding). I understand epic play isn't for everyone, but I design all my systems so that people who DO play it can take advantage. It is not, however, a requirement.



> I'm a martial artist. I'm an initiate (level 8). If I have to start at acolyte again, It would be pointless to choose my ability for level 14 from my new school if it has to come from acolyte. If you add only gaining access to the lowest rank of abilities to a lowered maximum, that means at 18 I reach master, and my acolyte abilities reach initiate. totally useless.



That's why I suggested that if you choose to train in a new style, you're automatically Initiate rank - you can choose any ability from Acolyte or Initiate, and you can advance in both styles up to Master rank.



> If youre blowing a feat on it, clearly you're studying for it, but you arent learning the whole school, youre learning just enough to adapt the technique into the school youre in.



Eh. I view your idea like taking a feat to learn, say, sneak attack when you have no levels in rogue.



> 1. Dabbling: You go all in one school, but you can blow a feat to learn an ability from another school youre not in, no higher than your rank. You have taken the time to learn this one technique, but youre not in the school. So you just get the one ability.



See above.



> 2. Dual Schooling: You repeat a single rank, so if you do it at level 8, you repeat acolyte for max choice options. You can learn any ability up to that rank in either school. This is the martial artist studying 2 actual schools. AC 50/50 split between them, and they get both sets of default abilities. for Speed, it's halfway between the 2 schools.



This is the one I'm leaning most toward. Using the average AC and speed bonus could work, or just the better of the two. Here's what I've got for cross-training in styles:



> Each time she gains a new rank, she can choose to begin training in a new style; she must spend a week training under a master in the new style, whereupon her rank in the new style is automatically set to Initiate (due to the training she has already received in her first style). Each time she gains a new rank, she can choose an ability from either style (but not both). A monk cannot train in more than two styles, nor can she train in Mountain and Wind or Sun and Ocean styles at the same time – they are sufficiently different that most monks cannot accommodate both styles in their training.
> 
> When calculating AC bonus from the Awareness of Self ability and fast movement, use the higher bonus. For example, a monk trained in both Mountain and Sun styles would use the Mountain style AC bonus and Sun Style movement rate.




The clause about not being able to train in Mountain/Wind or Sun/Sea will prevent someone from taking Mountain/Wind for the huge AC/speed boost, and you don't have to worry about the Mountain style DR - that style's AC is better than Sun/Ocean.



> 3. Conversion: Doable once, you stop learning your old school in favor of a different school. From this point on you can only learn abilities from the new school, not the old one. Your rank remains unchanged. This has to be done before attaining Master in a school. You keep all your old abilities from the old school, and you cannot switch them. You lose the default ability of your old school, and gain the default ability of the new one. Your speed and AC remain the same, but from that point on they progress as though in the new school.



I'm not sure about this one. I personally don't like having to make ultimate choices (i.e., once you choose, you can't go back). I think #2 is the best all around - real-world martial artists can master several different styles, and I don't see why PCs couldn't do the same.



> When you change schools in real life, you dont always start at the beginning, alot of the time they will place you based on what you already can do from another school. Often its just a lateral transfer.



I can't speak for martial arts, but I know in the military, if you switch services, you often lose a rank or two - it's not a straight swap. It also depends largely on what the other styles are, too - if you're a black belt in kung fu and want to learn judo, chances are you'll start at the bottom; if you want to learn jujitsu or karate, though, you would start higher (they'd probably fast-track you through the tests to see what you actually know, because some people don't really earn their belts).


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## Sylrae (Jul 24, 2008)

Kerrick said:


> Epic play is hardly about fighting demigods. I'm not sure where you got that idea. At its core, it's simply fighting bigger and badder enemies, none of which need to have any kind of divinity. I've played up to 30th level, and I had a blast (faults in the epic system notwithstanding). I understand epic play isn't for everyone, but I design all my systems so that people who DO play it can take advantage. It is not, however, a requirement.






Kerrick said:


> That's why I suggested that if you choose to train in a new style, you're automatically Initiate rank - you can choose any ability from Acolyte or Initiate, and you can advance in both styles up to Master rank.



If you pikc up that school AT master rank, then you dont get to have master in both. thats where its majorly different. What level you pick up the new school at shouldnt really matter. it should have the same end result.



Kerrick said:


> Eh. I view your idea like taking a feat to learn, say, sneak attack when you have no levels in rogue.



Except that martial artist is a single class, so its not the same thing. youre just cross specializing. It's more like a fighter dumping a regular feat to get access to another fighter feat. I should note you should be able to use said feat for an ability from your own school as well. Hell. for another feat, I would say they should be able to use another schools abilities (learned through these feats) adapted to their own school, using their attributes, like a weapon finesse feat for monks. - thats just a maybe though.



Kerrick said:


> This is the one I'm leaning most toward. Using the average AC and speed bonus could work, or just the better of the two. Here's what I've got for cross-training in styles:
> 
> I'm not sure about this one. I personally don't like having to make ultimate choices (i.e., once you choose, you can't go back). I think #2 is the best all around - real-world martial artists can master several different styles, and I don't see why PCs couldn't do the same.



You misunderstood me. I'm not saying pick one of the three. I'm saying all of them. a PC should have access to all of the methods I mentioned. and the "use the better value" is one I think is a bad Idea for this because martial arts styles arent actually elemts, and there's not much reason I see why the wonkky combinations you mentioned should be disallowed. They wouldnt be particularly effective because alot of their strengths would cancel eachother out, but still.




Kerrick said:


> I can't speak for martial arts, but I know in the military, if you switch services, you often lose a rank or two - it's not a straight swap. It also depends largely on what the other styles are, too - if you're a black belt in kung fu and want to learn judo, chances are you'll start at the bottom; if you want to learn jujitsu or karate, though, you would start higher (they'd probably fast-track you through the tests to see what you actually know, because some people don't really earn their belts).



This is referring to ranks in an organization. A class is more accurately used to measure what you KNOW or what you can DO. and in this case, alot of my arguments are based as much on how it would effect gameplay as logic based on how it works in real life.


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## Kerrick (Jul 31, 2008)

Sorry I haven't done any updates lately, but I took a break from this to work on other things. I've added bonus feat lists to all the styles (though a couple are 1-2 feats short - they're all supposed to have 10), a couple abilities to the Sea and Sun Styles, and rearranged the Wind Style abilities. Earthsense is now an "always-on" ability, and I added that stuff about learning new styles. The Fighting Style Ability feat (which needs a better name) is the "you can learn an extra ability from any style in which you are trained" one.


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## Knightfall (Aug 7, 2008)

So, is there a PDF version of this yet? I looked through the thread but I didn't see it posted anywhere.


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## Kerrick (Aug 8, 2008)

Not yet. I have to finish it first.  As it stands, I only need a couple more abilities for the Sun Style and something for the Western focus, and that'll be about it.


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## Knightfall (Aug 8, 2008)

Kerrick said:


> Not yet. I have to finish it first.  As it stands, I only need a couple more abilities for the Sun Style and something for the Western focus, and that'll be about it.



 Looking forward to the final version.


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## Kerrick (Aug 10, 2008)

Added some more stuff - a L11 class ability, a couple missing bonus feats, the West compass focus, and a couple to the Sea, Shadow, Sun, and Wind styles. A couple names and 1-2 more abilities, and this baby's DONE!


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## Dannyalcatraz (Aug 15, 2008)

I just thought this might be of interest:

As I posted elsewhere, a Shou Disciple is proficient with Lt Armors and no shields, and expressly gets to use its FoB and other martial arts skills when wearing Light armor, and loses it with heavier armors or shields.

And Monk & Shoul Disciple levels stack for most purposes.

There is, however, no language what happens when a Monk with levels in Shou Disciple uses Light Armor- as in, does he get to use all of his levels of FoB in armor, or only his Shou Disciple ones?

I, for one, opt for the former- I see the Shou Disciple's Lt Armor proficiency as a class feature that could just as easily be named "Armored Monk."


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## Kerrick (Aug 15, 2008)

What's a Shou Disciple? Is it a PrC or a base class? If it's a PrC, I could see it - it's simply a refocus of the monk toward being able to fight in armor. I'd agree with you, though - since the levels stack and they gain more or less the same abilities, the character would still be able to use his monk abilities in armor. I would not, however, let him keep the AC bonus - that was put in specifically to counter the fact that they _can't_ wear armor.


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## Kerrick (Aug 17, 2008)

Almost done! I made a bunch of minor changes: 

Mountain Style: Dropped Indomitable and made it a feat that grants a +2 bonus vs. bull rush, overrun, and trip attacks. They gain a bonus at Master level anyway (Rooted in the Earth) so it was kind of superfluous. 

Sea Style: Added the last missing feat. Changed the "wear down resistance" ability to Relentless Waves, and the "wear down hardness" ability to Ice Shatters Rock. Named the last ability Whirlpool (not a great choice, but I wanted to keep the water-based theme for naming, and it was the best I could come up).

Sun Style: Revised the feat list. Dropped Imp. Disarm as an Acolyte ability. Added Rushing Flames at Initiate level (identical to Mountain Style Avalanche). Added name to Master level ability, Explosive Fury.

I had really hoped to come up with two minor abilities, but it's freaking hot here and it's melting my brain.  I'm sure I'll get something soon (within a few days, a week at most).


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## Kerrick (Aug 30, 2008)

Gods above, I didn't realize that I'd started this three _months_ ago. 
Anyway, it is, for all intents and purposes, done - I'm missing an Acolyte-level ability for the Mountain style, but everything else is there, so I've posted a finished version (rtf format) to the first post. Thank you all for your advice, input, criticism, and commentary. Now, someone playtest this thing!


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