# 4e Ravenloft - Dragon 368



## Shroomy (Sep 11, 2008)

So, according to Randy Buehler, "October will also see the Domains of Dread return to D&D, with the long-time Ravenloft concept being folded into the core now."  Now, this is some big news.  Let the speculation begin.


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## Nahat Anoj (Sep 11, 2008)

Awesome news indeed.    Ravenloft deserves to be core!


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## Sonny (Sep 11, 2008)

Shroomy said:


> So, according to Randy Buehler, "October will also see the Domains of Dread return to D&D, with the long-time Ravenloft concept being folded into the core now."  Now, this is some big news.  Let the speculation begin.



I'm surprised no one's commented on it before. During the Daily Gen Con rundowns at Wizards site, it was mentioned. But people didn't even seem to notice it at the time.

Either way, I hope the new Manual of the Planes covers it, along with some new info on Sigil.

I just wonder how different it will be, or if they'll even keep the origins of some of the Dark Lords the same. Like Soth* for example: would they have him from Krynn, or tie him into the default setting, making him perhaps the first person to become a Death Knight.





*I can't recall if Soth was taken out of the third edition due to licensing issues, or if he escaped during the second edition for story reasons.


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## Silverblade The Ench (Sep 11, 2008)

Think Soth, iirc, repented of his evil and was redeemed, thus leaving Ravenloft?

Like Dark Sun, rather they ignored much of the later stuff and stuck to original, as the later stuff just made it messy as hell :/


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## Sonny (Sep 11, 2008)

Silverblade The Ench said:


> Think Soth, iirc, repented of his evil and was redeemed, thus leaving Ravenloft?
> 
> Like Dark Sun, rather they ignored much of the later stuff and stuck to original, as the later stuff just made it messy as hell :/




If they ignore the later stuff, I hope they bring back Van Ritchen. I know he's a Van Helsing ripoff, but I always liked him. Plus, his original picture in the Black Box Set reminded me of Roddy McDowell in _Fright Night_.


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## Leatherhead (Sep 11, 2008)

Sonny said:


> If they ignore the later stuff, I hope they bring back Van Ritchen. I know he's a Van Helsing ripoff, but I always liked him. Plus, his original picture in the Black Box Set reminded me of Roddy McDowell in _Fright Night_.




I still read his monster hunter books.


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## vagabundo (Sep 11, 2008)

The domains of dread would float around in the Astral Sea now? 

The archipelago of dread... Dun Dun Dunnnnnnn...


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## WhatGravitas (Sep 11, 2008)

vagabundo said:


> The domains of dread would float around in the Astral Sea now?
> 
> The archipelago of dread... Dun Dun Dunnnnnnn...



I reckon it's rather something deep within the Shadowfell, like a sublayer of it.

Cheers, LT.


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## Green Knight (Sep 11, 2008)

Nah, it wouldn't fit in the Shadowfell for numerous reasons. For one, the Shadowfell is a reflection of a specific world. Faerun has its Shadowfell reflection, Krynn has its Shadowfell reflection, etc. Ravenloft isn't a reflection of any world. There're lands torn or copied from other worlds on it, but it isn't a copy of any one world. Second, it's a whole lot easier to get out of the Shadowfell than it is to get out of Ravenloft. Last but not least, it's a demiplane (which still exist in 4E), and as such, would probably be situated in the Astral Sea. Besides, it'd be nice to have Ravenloft with its own Shadowfell and Feywild reflections. 

As for this news, personally I'm sweating bullets at the thought of making it "core". They went to the trouble of keeping demiplanes in 4E, so hopefully they'll keep it as one. One which is insanely difficult to get out of. And hopefully they won't feel the need to force everything in core into Ravenloft. Namely, Dragonborn, Dragons, planar travel, etc. Those're pretty big defining characteristics of Ravenloft, and I'd hate to see it lose them.


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## Nahat Anoj (Sep 11, 2008)

I actually think the only things they'll bring into core are Castle Ravenloft, Strahd, Van Richten, Barovia, and a few other elements.  Barovia will be a region in PoLand, like the Nentir Vale.  The entirety of the Ravenloft Campaign Setting probably won't be put into core.


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## Dykstrav (Sep 11, 2008)

Silverblade The Ench said:


> Think Soth, iirc, repented of his evil and was redeemed, thus leaving Ravenloft?
> 
> Like Dark Sun, rather they ignored much of the later stuff and stuck to original, as the later stuff just made it messy as hell :/




Soth was taken out of Ravenloft around 1999 in _Spectre of the Black Rose_, not because he had been redeemed, but because he somehow managed to ameliorate his torturous existence in Ravenloft. Although never expressly stated, it was hinted at that the Dark Powers realized that Soth could not suffer any more and just got rid of him.

Back in the late 90's/early 2000, rumors were flying that Soth was taken out of Ravenloft and back into Dragonlance because he was supposed to be the big villain in 3E Dragonlance. That was back when Wizards of the Coast were planning on doing Greyhawk as core and Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance as their two campaign settings.


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## JeffB (Sep 11, 2008)

Leatherhead said:


> I still read his monster hunter books.



Those were some of the best 2E products period..regardless of campaign setting. Sadly (stupidly ?  ) I sold them all sev years ago.


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## ferratus (Sep 11, 2008)

Dykstrav said:


> Back in the late 90's/early 2000, rumors were flying that Soth was taken out of Ravenloft and back into Dragonlance because he was supposed to be the big villain in 3E Dragonlance. That was back when Wizards of the Coast were planning on doing Greyhawk as core and Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance as their two campaign settings.




I thought it was because Weis & Hickman threw a hissy fit because Soth "their character", and then killed him so that nobody could use him anymore.

That was how this long time dragonlance fan heard the situation went down, but I could be clouded by bitterness.


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## Irda Ranger (Sep 11, 2008)

Excited and concerned.

Excited because, of course, Ravenloft is awesome.

Concerned because:
1. I saw what "making Forgotten Realms core" did to FR.
2. A full Domains of Dread would not fit in a Dragon Mag; what are they cutting out?
3. A culture within WotC that seems unclear on the difference between Emo/goth and actual Gothic horror. I'm looking at you, Tiefling entry in _Races & Classes_.
4. The RtCR book that seemed to think slasher-fic was a good substitute for tragedy.


Ironically, I do recognize that Wizards really screwing up Ravenloft would be the best way to actually get me in character for playing in Ravenloft (because my nightmares would be realized).


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## EATherrian (Sep 11, 2008)

I haven't been impressed with the new Core.  I really haven't been impressed with the new view of the Forgotten Realms.  Therefore I'm going to call it that I'm not going to be impressed with their new take on Ravenloft.  They need some better writers or thinkers in their world creation ranks.


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## The Little Raven (Sep 11, 2008)

Irda Ranger said:


> 3. A culture within WotC that seems unclear on the difference between Emo/goth and actual Gothic horror. I'm looking at you, Tiefling entry in _Races & Classes_.




The tiefling is not intended to be representative of Gothic Horror, so nobody mistook "emo/goth" for it. They're more representative of the concept of original sin.


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## Irda Ranger (Sep 11, 2008)

The Little Raven said:


> The tiefling is not intended to be representative of Gothic Horror, so nobody mistook "emo/goth" for it. They're more representative of the concept of original sin.




Bad example. I didn't want to use RtCR twice. But mistaking Emo/goth for "original sin" is no better, and still cheesy-cheese on cheese crackers.


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## Jack Colby (Sep 11, 2008)

I don't honestly have high hopes for this.  This setting seems the least suited for 4E. I'd much rather see Dark Sun.  Speculation: the domains will sometimes overlay existing sites in the real world, rather than have PCs travel to the demiplane.


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## The Little Raven (Sep 11, 2008)

Irda Ranger said:


> But mistaking Emo/goth for "original sin" is no better, and still cheesy-cheese on cheese crackers.




See, that's the thing about opinions... I see you mistaking original sin for "emo/goth," rather than the writers mistaking "emo/goth" for original sin.

"Emo/goth" seems to be code for "I don't like this."


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## Echohawk (Sep 11, 2008)

JeffB said:


> Those were some of the best 2E products period..regardless of campaign setting. Sadly (stupidly ?  ) I sold them all sev years ago.



I have a spare copy of _Van Richten's Monster Hunter's Compendium Volume One_ that I'll happily post you. Drop me a private message with your address.


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## Cam Banks (Sep 11, 2008)

ferratus said:


> I thought it was because Weis & Hickman threw a hissy fit because Soth "their character", and then killed him so that nobody could use him anymore.
> 
> That was how this long time dragonlance fan heard the situation went down, but I could be clouded by bitterness.



I have never known Margaret and Tracy to throw a "hissy fit" about anything, just for the record.

For MWP's Dragonlance products, we just assumed he was never there. It's not explicitly stated, but then again, Ravenloft isn't mentioned either.

And you came late to the party to be so bitter, Terry. 

Cheers,
Cam


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## The Little Raven (Sep 11, 2008)

ferratus said:


> I thought it was because Weis & Hickman threw a hissy fit because Soth "their character", and then killed him so that nobody could use him anymore.




Soth was removed from Ravenloft because of the fact that Dragonlance was licensed to MWP and Ravenloft to Arthaus/WW. I've heard that the reason Soth was killed was because Hickman in particular was annoyed with the whole moving him from DL to RL thing, but I've never seen any real evidence to back it up.


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## doctorhook (Sep 11, 2008)

Jack Colby said:


> I don't honestly have high hopes for this.  This setting seems the least suited for 4E. ...



 Ravenloft is, like, the original PoL setting. It's _uniquely_ suited to 4E.



			
				Irda Ranger said:
			
		

> Concerned because:
> 1. I saw what "making Forgotten Realms core" did to FR.



I'm pretty sure this never happened, and that nerdrage is simply making you hallucinate. Faerun isn't a part of the default setting. They don't share a history, pantheon, or planet (unless you've decided to overlay PoL on top of FR). Forgotten Realms is only "core" to the extent that elements (mechanical elements especially) can be translated to other worlds and settings. Do you believe this is why FR was changed? Because FR needed it.

Ravenloft is perfect for 4E, and very little needs to be changed here at all.


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## Keefe the Thief (Sep 11, 2008)

Irda Ranger said:


> Excited and concerned.
> 
> Excited because, of course, Ravenloft is awesome.
> 
> ...




Take a "misusing the stupid emo/goth phrase, whatever that is" point.


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## frankthedm (Sep 11, 2008)

Irda Ranger said:


> Concerned because:
> 1. I saw what "making Forgotten Realms core" did to FR.
> 2. A full Domains of Dread would not fit in a Dragon Mag; what are they cutting out?
> 3. A culture within WotC that seems unclear on the difference between Emo/goth and actual Gothic horror. I'm looking at you, Tiefling entry in _Races & Classes_.
> 4. The RtCR book that seemed to think slasher-fic was a good substitute for tragedy.



 Don't be too worried, it is not like 4E is aimed at the video game generation or anything like that. 

On the subject of Ravenloft and video games...

http://castlevania.classicgaming.gamespy.com/Images/Weird/CV2/dstrahd.gif
http://images.wikia.com/castlevania/images/1/1d/Castlevania_II_Japan_box_art.jpg
Castlevania II: Simon's Quest - Castlevania Wiki


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## The Little Raven (Sep 11, 2008)

frankthedm said:


> Castlevania II: Simon's Quest - Castlevania Wiki




I love this game. In fact, I love it so much that I was already planning to use it's basic plot in order to run a sequel to the Expedition to Castle Ravenloft mini-campaign I'm running in 4e. After defeating and killing Strahd, the players will be forced to endure a horrible curse, or resurrect him and defeat him for good.


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## ferratus (Sep 11, 2008)

Cam Banks said:


> I have never known Margaret and Tracy to throw a "hissy fit" about anything, just for the record.
> 
> For MWP's Dragonlance products, we just assumed he was never there. It's not explicitly stated, but then again, Ravenloft isn't mentioned either.
> 
> And you came late to the party to be so bitter, Terry.




Don't confuse the length of time I had access to high speed internet (which facilitates wasting time on forums) with the length of time following the setting.  I've been growing increasingly bitter since Dragons of Summer Flame.  Though, I've grown increasingly at peace since deciding to ignore the Chaos War and everything after it.    Still I've been commenting on dragonlance-related forums for 8 years now, almost a quarter of my life.

I'll acknowledge that I don't know this for sure, but it sure seems to match the way the dragonlance brand was handled and the personalities of the people who managed and worked on that brand.   That's after all why Paladine and Takhisis were killed off right?  To force the editor(s) and brand managers to stop writing novels where Takhisis tries to enter a portal to Krynn?

Getting back to Soth, he both left Ravenloft and was killed off before Sovereign Press knew they were getting the license for dragonlance, if memory serves me correctly.


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## Silverblade The Ench (Sep 11, 2008)

Yeah Van Richten was cool 
Very disgusted with way he, Khelben Blackstaff and Halaster got killed off, grr!!!
Never mind the Sorceror Kings in Dark Sun, double grr!!!!


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## Irda Ranger (Sep 11, 2008)

doctorhook said:


> I'm pretty sure this never happened, and that nerdrage is simply making you hallucinate.



I must have hallucinated Eladrin, the Feywild and Dragonborn being added to the setting. I must has hallucinated the Demiplane of Shadow being renamed the Shadowfell and the Abyss falling into the Elemental Planes Chaos.

You may think these were good changes, but that's a subjective opinion. The fact is that the setting was changed to match the 4E Core. Personally I did not like some of these changes. That's all I'm saying.




doctorhook said:


> Ravenloft is perfect for 4E, and very little needs to be changed here at all.



I agree. And my stated concern was that they _will _change it anyway.




The Little Raven said:


> "Emo/goth" seems to be code for "I don't like this."





Keefe the Thief said:


> Take a "misusing the stupid emo/goth phrase, whatever that is" point.



It's neither a code nor a misuse if you mean what you say and don't use the phrase when it doesn't apply.

"emo" is a genre of music I am familiar with. "goths" self identify as such, and I am as free as anyone to form an opinion about them (yes, I'm judgmental like that). I'm not here to say whether it's good or bad (or whether anything merely fashionable even _can _be good or bad), but it's not my scene and it seemed obvious to me that the Tiefling entry in R&C and the continued inclusion of the Shadar-kai was either pandering to these "demographics" by WotC to pump sales or included out of genuine interest by certain WotC staffers.  Either way, "not my thing."

But feel free to take back your not-so-subtle accusations that I'm using a "code" or "misusing" terms. These are terms with generally accepted meanings, and I called them as I saw them.


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## The Little Raven (Sep 11, 2008)

Irda Ranger said:


> I must have hallucinated Eladrin, the Feywild and Dragonborn being added to the setting. I must has hallucinated the Demiplane of Shadow being renamed the Shadowfell and the Abyss falling into the Elemental Planes Chaos.




The Feywild, Shadowfell, and Elemental Chaos were actually the new FR cosmology they devised, and they liked it so much that they moved it to the core implied setting. And the Abyss was pushed.

And on "emo" and "goth".... Emo, as a descriptor for a music genre, is so vague as to be effectively worthless, since you have bands that range in style from Fugazi to Sunny Day Real Estate. The goth subculture, on the other hand, has little to nothing in common with the tiefling writeup, aside from a focus on nonconformity.

Unless the tiefling writeup has scads of information about aesthetics, music, and art that matches those subcultures, any claim of a direct connection is weak at best.


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## Eridanis (Sep 11, 2008)

IrdaRanger, Little Raven - let go of each others' throats before you both get vacations. Thank you.


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## Nahat Anoj (Sep 11, 2008)

Irda Ranger said:


> 2. A full Domains of Dread would not fit in a Dragon Mag; what are they cutting out?



Again, I'm pretty sure they aren't going to put every single country from the Ravenloft Campaign Setting into the 4e default world. I'm certain that all they will do is make Castle Ravenloft a locale in the 4e world.  This is similar to what they did with Sigil - they didn't bring in every aspect of Planescape into the 4e cosmology, just that one (really cool) piece.

It'll be like reprinting the original module for 4e.  We'll probably get the map of Castle Ravenloft in Dungeon and information about Barovia, Strahd, and all the rest in Dragon.  Barovia will become a piece of PoLand, like Arkhosia, Nerath, or Bael Turath.  It'll be closely tied with the Shadowfell.  We won't see a psuedo-French nation, we won't see Darkon, and we won't see many other things from the RCS (at least, not yet).


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## GoodKingJayIII (Sep 11, 2008)

I've never quite understood the hate leveled at tieflings.  I like them personally, and I am as far away from emo and goth as you can be.  Likewise, my friends and acquaintances who are goths tend to dislike them, so I'd say that if WotC included them to pander to that crowd, they didn't do the best job of it.  More likely Tieflings, like Dragonborn, were included to have a "monster race" among the core.  People like that sort of thing.  Supposedly, anyway.

Oh yes, and 4e Ravenloft.  Yay!  Not generally my cup o' tea, but plenty of lovely ideas to steal.


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## EATherrian (Sep 11, 2008)

GoodKingJayIII said:


> I've never quite understood the hate leveled at tieflings.  I like them personally, and I am as far away from emo and goth as you can be.  Likewise, my friends and acquaintances who are goths tend to dislike them, so I'd say that if WotC included them to pander to that crowd, they didn't do the best job of it.  More likely Tieflings, like Dragonborn, were included to have a "monster race" among the core.  People like that sort of thing.  Supposedly, anyway.
> 
> Oh yes, and 4e Ravenloft.  Yay!  Not generally my cup o' tea, but plenty of lovely ideas to steal.




I personally feel that as they are presenting them now, not the original Planescape presentation, that there is a bit of a D'rizztification going on with them.  I see it and don't at the same time.  I see more of a Draenei analog than a goth/emo think but that's just me.  Also I've never really liked "monster" races.  These are fantasy worlds and good and evil are tangible forces here.  There's no reason to allow real world morality there.  All orcs are evil, all lamasu are good, some races are free to choose.  Therefore I generally used the now much-aligned Tolkein line-up.  I am trying to piece the Tieflings and Dragonborn into a new campaign world, so I'm not stuck on my preconceptions.

As to Ravenloft, it was always one of my favorite worlds, and it scares me whenever they revamp or fix something that I love; it rarely improves it.


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## Irda Ranger (Sep 11, 2008)

Jonathan Moyer said:


> Again, I'm pretty sure they aren't going to put every single country from the Ravenloft Campaign Setting into the 4e default world. I'm certain that all they will do is make Castle Ravenloft a locale in the 4e world.



You may be right, but it'd be a bummer.  And as for the Domains of Dread, I guess we'll leave off the 's' for 'Savings.'



Jonathan Moyer said:


> Barovia will become a piece of PoLand



I had to read that three times before I could grok why you thought Barovia  was in the bit based on Poland. I'm not-smart like that occasionally.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 11, 2008)

Jonathan Moyer said:


> I actually think the only things they'll bring into core are Castle Ravenloft, Strahd, Van Richten, Barovia, and a few other elements.  Barovia will be a region in PoLand, like the Nentir Vale.  The entirety of the Ravenloft Campaign Setting probably won't be put into core.



This is my guess as well. Castle Ravenloft, like Castle Greyhawk, is now fair game for every setting, and I bet we see both as super-modules before too long.

That said, it's certainly possible to go much more ambitious than Expedition/Ravenloft and include lots of the other good stuff from other domains, like Azalin.


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## The Little Raven (Sep 12, 2008)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> This is my guess as well. Castle Ravenloft, like Castle Greyhawk, is now fair game for every setting, and I bet we see both as super-modules before too long.
> 
> That said, it's certainly possible to go much more ambitious than Expedition/Ravenloft and include lots of the other good stuff from other domains, like Azalin.




It's also possible that they make "Domains of Dread" a regular column in Dragon, and over time tackle more and more of the setting.


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## I'm A Banana (Sep 12, 2008)

Jonathan Moyer said:
			
		

> I actually think the only things they'll bring into core are Castle Ravenloft, Strahd, Van Richten, Barovia, and a few other elements. Barovia will be a region in PoLand, like the Nentir Vale. The entirety of the Ravenloft Campaign Setting probably won't be put into core.




DING DING DING DING DING.

Someone's tiefling warlock and someone's dragonborn paladin and someone's eladrin ninjarogue will be able to tackle the castle and kill Strahd.

For most people, this will be a good thing.

For some purists who don't like the idea of monsterous dealers with the devil running around in Barovia's "A little like Transylvania!" town, it will cause momentary outrage.

Wheee!


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## Nahat Anoj (Sep 12, 2008)

Irda Ranger said:


> YI had to read that three times before I could grok why you thought Barovia  was in the bit based on Poland. I'm not-smart like that occasionally.



Sorry, I use that spelling of the D&D world occasionally and forget it's not necessarily standard usage.   

I often wish they would give the world of D&D an actual name.


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## Lord Xtheth (Sep 12, 2008)

I REALY REALY hope Ravenloft gets its own setting book again. I almost missed it for 3rd ed. I found the books at a garage sale of all places and scooped them up faster than time itself would allow.

I want to see/play/DM ravenloft in 4th so much I almost considered doing the work myself converting the old material (Including Soth). But Laziness prevailed! Now that they're hinting that they're doing SOMTHING with the setting, I'll just wait and see what they do.

Here's hoping they realize Ravenloft will make them money, and they'll publish it!


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## Nahat Anoj (Sep 12, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> Someone's tiefling warlock and someone's dragonborn paladin and someone's eladrin ninjarogue will be able to tackle the castle and kill Strahd.



They never did this before?  

Tieflings and warlocks have a great Ravenloft vibe IMO.  Savage dragonborn warriors with Slavic or Romanian overtones could be neat as well.  And nothing beats cruel-hearted, unseelie eladrin lords.


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## I'm A Banana (Sep 12, 2008)

> Tieflings and warlocks have a great Ravenloft vibe IMO. Savage dragonborn warriors with Slavic or Romanian overtones could be neat as well. And nothing beats cruel-hearted, unseelie eladrin lords.




Well, the Ravenloft that I most accurately remember (and it could be horribly distorted) was xenophobic to the point of hysteria, much like the stereotypical "Wallachias" of the Dracula-style movies. Insular, frightened, and over-protective, these villages shut their doors and their minds to all that is outside because everything outside -- from the wind to the sun to the ever-present mist -- is alien, evil, and possessed of a black soul of corruption. 

A man walkin' around with devil horns or a dragon's maw or who can step in and out of space is going to be mobbed and killed by the first yokel strike team the village can assemble in a setting like that.

Now, it's possible that this isn't entirely accurate to the rest of the way the world has seen it, and instead has mostly been from my own DM's particular style. But those things you mention, in the Ravenloft I'm aware of, would all be monsters. Not PC's. It would be like making PC's who are "half-vampire" or somesuch -- an affront to the roots of gothic horror that treats the Other as something always to be terrified of.

Now maybe those would all work in a horror setting where PC's got to play as monsters (I'm looking forward to a werewolf PC!), but Ravenloft wasn't really that setting, AFAIR. But, again, that could've just been my DM's take on it.


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## RandomCitizenX (Sep 12, 2008)

The fact that the quote in the OP refers to the "Domains of Dread" and not just the Castle Ravenloft gives me hope that the demiplane will be existing in a more traditional way that some of you fear. I don't see how anyone could find it beneficial to just drop Barovia into the Prime of the PoL when adding in the entire plane would be pretty easy. 

I don't expect we will get all of the domains in this initial release, but I would be surprised if any of the major ones were left out (Darkon, Tepest, Barovia, Sithicus, and Mordent to name a few). Most likely we will get a sweeping over view to be expanded at a later date.. I least I hope that is the case.


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## Vocenoctum (Sep 12, 2008)

Jonathan Moyer said:


> Again, I'm pretty sure they aren't going to put every single country from the Ravenloft Campaign Setting into the 4e default world. I'm certain that all they will do is make Castle Ravenloft a locale in the 4e world.  This is similar to what they did with Sigil - they didn't bring in every aspect of Planescape into the 4e cosmology, just that one (really cool) piece.





In my original campaign, we had the Grand Conjunction occur and merged Ravenloft with the "real world". Rather than a demi-plane, the Mists imprisoned great evils in small domains/ sinkholes of evil. It worked fine for us.


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## Shroomy (Sep 12, 2008)

I'd surmise that the Ravenloft content will be a series of articles:  a 10-12 page overview/gazateer with some crunch (maybe backgrounds), another article with character options (feats, paragon paths), a bestiary article, and then maybe something describing some Ravenloft specific rules.  However, all of this content will be applicable to non-Ravenloft campaigns.


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## Serendipity (Sep 12, 2008)

The Little Raven said:


> Emo, as a descriptor for a music genre, is so vague as to be effectively worthless, since you have bands that range in style from Fugazi to Sunny Day Real Estate.




Fugazi is considered emo?   Wow, I've been living in a cave for several years. 
Sorry for the thread hijack.


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## Shroomy (Sep 12, 2008)

Triskaidekafile said:


> Fugazi is considered emo?   Wow, I've been living in a cave for several years.
> Sorry for the thread hijack.




Fugazi is part of the emotional hardcore movement (aka emo), which was a subgenre of hardcore punk that arose in Washington DC.  However, when people use "emo" to disparage something nowadays, they are not talking about that type of music.


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## ProfessorCirno (Sep 12, 2008)

"Emo" has changed a lot.  The current look of emo is pretty far detatched from what it used to be.  You can thank the formulaic drivel of Dashboard for that.


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## Serendipity (Sep 12, 2008)

Shroomy said:


> Fugazi is part of the emotional hardcore movement (aka emo), which was a subgenre of hardcore punk that arose in Washington DC.  However, when people use "emo" to disparage something nowadays, they are not talking about that type of music.




Okay, thanks.   I've been with Fugazi since 13 Songs; never heard the term emo til about four years ago.  In context (as I've encountered it) I have to remind myself that it refers (originally) to a style of music even though I've never run across anyone actually using it as a descriptor.


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## Dykstrav (Sep 12, 2008)

ferratus said:


> I thought it was because Weis & Hickman threw a hissy fit because Soth "their character", and then killed him so that nobody could use him anymore.
> 
> That was how this long time dragonlance fan heard the situation went down, but I could be clouded by bitterness.




I never saw an official statement about it, hence why I prefaced it as "rumor." But it wouldn't be the first time that creative people didn't agree on the future of an intellectual property.


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## GrimGent (Sep 12, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> Well, the Ravenloft that I most accurately remember (and it could be horribly distorted) was xenophobic to the point of hysteria, much like the stereotypical "Wallachias" of the Dracula-style movies. Insular, frightened, and over-protective, these villages shut their doors and their minds to all that is outside because everything outside -- from the wind to the sun to the ever-present mist -- is alien, evil, and possessed of a black soul of corruption.



The details varied from one domain to another, naturally enough, but at least the populace of the 3e campaign setting published by White Wolf was roughly about 99.9% human (or at least masquerading as human), and even _elves_ suffered from an "Outcast Rating" of 3 which acted as a penalty to all social skills except Intimidate. Many would in all likelihood see them either as freaks who have mutilated their own ears or unnatural creatures in league with the powers of darkness. Being greeted by a mob with torches and pitchforks is a distinct possibility.


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## malraux (Sep 12, 2008)

GrimGent said:


> The details varied from one domain to another, naturally enough, but at least the populace of the 3e campaign setting published by White Wolf was roughly about 99.9% human (or at least masquerading as human), and even _elves_ suffered from an "Outcast Rating" of 3 which acted as a penalty to all social skills except Intimidate. Many would in all likelihood see them either as freaks who have mutilated their own ears or unnatural creatures in league with the powers of darkness. Being greeted by a mob with torches and pitchforks is a distinct possibility.




I wouldn't be shocked to see this aspect changed somewhat.  I suspect WotC wants to remove all "surprise, you're character is now useless" situations.  I can see Barovia being unwelcome to all outsiders, but I'll be that they don't go out of their way to penalize particular races.


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## Irda Ranger (Sep 12, 2008)

malraux said:


> I suspect WotC wants to remove all "surprise, you're character is now useless" situations.  I can see Barovia being unwelcome to all outsiders, but I'll be that they don't go out of their way to penalize particular races.



Agreed, and too bad. The Core Settings (FR, Eb, "PoL-Land") can be a polyglot melting pot if that's what WotC wants, but other campaign settings should be free to play by different rules. No aquatic elves in Dark Sun, for instance.

If a DM took his Eb group (including an elf Chr-rogue) and forcably dropped them in Ravenloft to a greeting of "surprise, you're character is now useless", that would be Not Cool (TM). But with informed consent where everyone makes their characters in full knowledge of how the setting works no one would have to be "forced" into that situation.

That being said, WotC also has rule of "No bad choices", which I'm fine with as far as game design goes. It may be just easier to say "Look, Ravenloft is a xenophobic place. Don't make a character that 'looks funny' if you don't want them to get lynched."

I can hope, anyway.


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## Vocenoctum (Sep 12, 2008)

Irda Ranger said:


> If a DM took his Eb group (including an elf Chr-rogue) and forcably dropped them in Ravenloft to a greeting of "surprise, you're character is now useless", that would be Not Cool (TM). But with informed consent where everyone makes their characters in full knowledge of how the setting works no one would have to be "forced" into that situation.




Part of the fun of DMing Ravenloft was getting the group into RL in such a way that they didn't KNOW they were in Ravenloft for a while. You have to know your players of course, but "atmosphere" tended to go by adventure rather than by setting for me.

As for Ravenloft's "human-centric" setting, while they tended to be human-centric in my game, the elves/gnomes weren't singled out or anything. All the PC's were set apart from society, if a human magic user or human fighter wandered into Barovia, they were looked on with suspicion until proven and needed.


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## malraux (Sep 12, 2008)

Irda Ranger said:


> It may be just easier to say "Look, Ravenloft is a xenophobic place. Don't make a character that 'looks funny' if you don't want them to get lynched."
> 
> I can hope, anyway.




Xenophobic is reasonably fine.  I don't think its unreasonable to assume that the residents of the DoD will be untrusting of strangers.  I just don't think its a great idea for that to come out as just afraid of anything not human, but any outsiders.


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## Echohawk (Sep 12, 2008)

ferratus said:


> Getting back to Soth, he both left Ravenloft and was killed off before Sovereign Press knew they were getting the license for dragonlance, if memory serves me correctly.




Yes, Lord Soth left Ravenloft and returned to Dargaard Keep at the end of the Ravenloft novel _Spectre of the Black Rose_, which was published in March 1999. That was more than four years before Sovereign Press released _Age of Mortals_, and two years before the company was founded.


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## EATherrian (Sep 12, 2008)

malraux said:


> Xenophobic is reasonably fine.  I don't think its unreasonable to assume that the residents of the DoD will be untrusting of strangers.  I just don't think its a great idea for that to come out as just afraid of anything not human, but any outsiders.




In the Domains of Dread you should be afraid of anyone you haven't known your entire life.  You should just be cautious of them.


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## Treebore (Sep 12, 2008)

Silverblade The Ench said:


> Yeah Van Richten was cool
> Very disgusted with way he, Khelben Blackstaff and Halaster got killed off, grr!!!
> Never mind the Sorceror Kings in Dark Sun, double grr!!!!





They were never killed off! Oh, you mean what TSR and WOTC did with THEIR versions. Well, my versions are alive and well, thank you.


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## Treebore (Sep 12, 2008)

As for making DoD part of the core, its easy to do. When I did my "Conglomerate World", where I have every setting I like that isn't its own full world, I put this HUGE black cloud bank down in the southwest corner between the continents of Airhde and the continent of Cascandia. Guess what that huge cloud bank encloses? Yep, you guessed it, the Domains of Dread. Works fine. I even threw in the Island of King Kong nearby just for the fun of it, since Necromancer Games did such a nice 3E version of it.


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## Treebore (Sep 12, 2008)

Irda Ranger said:


> Agreed, and too bad. The Core Settings (FR, Eb, "PoL-Land") can be a polyglot melting pot if that's what WotC wants, but other campaign settings should be free to play by different rules. No aquatic elves in Dark Sun, for instance.
> 
> If a DM took his Eb group (including an elf Chr-rogue) and forcably dropped them in Ravenloft to a greeting of "surprise, you're character is now useless", that would be Not Cool (TM). But with informed consent where everyone makes their characters in full knowledge of how the setting works no one would have to be "forced" into that situation.
> 
> ...




Well, only certain parts of Ravenloft are Xenophobic, meaning the full Domains of Dread. Plus, at the levels you were supposed to bring them into the setting in 2E (5th+ level IIRC) they were usually very capable of good basic disguises.

No one was ever useless in my games. Once they discovered disguises would be a good idea. Which the discovery was part of the fun, IMO.


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## Mercule (Sep 12, 2008)

malraux said:


> I wouldn't be shocked to see this aspect changed somewhat.  I suspect WotC wants to remove all "surprise, you're character is now useless" situations.  I can see Barovia being unwelcome to all outsiders, but I'll be that they don't go out of their way to penalize particular races.



Unfortunately, I suspect you're right.  The insipid multiculturalism in 4e is possibly the most annoying aspect of the PoL, in the first place.  Adding it to Ravenloft is beyond ridiculous.


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## malraux (Sep 13, 2008)

Mercule said:


> Unfortunately, I suspect you're right.  The insipid multiculturalism in 4e is possibly the most annoying aspect of the PoL, in the first place.  Adding it to Ravenloft is beyond ridiculous.




I disagree; I think that if WotC wants to put x races in the PHB, the WotC settings should support those x races.


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## Whitemouse (Sep 13, 2008)

CORE?! 

I reveled in the fact that it wasn't easy to get sucked into or get out of the Domain of Dread.

And whats this I hear about each domain possibly being an Island of Terror? Me. So. Mad.


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## Vocenoctum (Sep 13, 2008)

Echohawk said:


> Yes, Lord Soth left Ravenloft and returned to Dargaard Keep at the end of the Ravenloft novel _Spectre of the Black Rose_, which was published in March 1999. That was more than four years before Sovereign Press released _Age of Mortals_, and two years before the company was founded.




I was not really "into" D&D at the time, but from what I recall it has nothing to do with SovPress, but with the authors. Ravenloft co-opted Soth, and when Weis/Hickman made another DL novel, they ignored Ravenloft entirely, keeping Soth always/forever in DL.

TSR then came up with a RL excuse for it, to cover the settings.


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## Irda Ranger (Sep 13, 2008)

malraux said:


> I disagree; I think that if WotC wants to put x races in the PHB, the WotC settings should support those x races.




What's the point of having different campaign settings then if they're all just the same races, classes and cultures? Different maps?


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## malraux (Sep 13, 2008)

Irda Ranger said:


> What's the point of having different campaign settings then if they're all just the same races, classes and cultures? Different maps?




I have no idea what the point of that would be.  I also don't see anyone here arguing for it.


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## I'm A Banana (Sep 13, 2008)

> I just don't think its a great idea for that to come out as just afraid of anything not human, but any outsiders.




Sure, but 4e in particular has a few weirdnesses that are going to make it more difficult. 

For one, tieflings. 

"Hey, what's with the horns? You a goat-man or summat?"
"My ancestors swore an unholy pact with Asmodeus for power, and --"
LYNCHMOB'D!

For two, eladrin.

"Hey, I closed the door! How'd you get in!"
"You see, I can cross between worlds for a moment, so mortal walls are no barrier to my --"
LYNCHMOB'D!

For three, warlocks.

"Sir, how did you slay that monster?"
"I sold my soul to unspeakable otherworldly forces for the power to fart magic!"
LYNCHMOB'D!

For four, dragonborn.

"OH SWEET JESUS IT BREATHES FIRE AND WALKS AS A MAN! STAB IT! STAB IT NOW!"

Elves, dwarves, halflings...these critters can pass as "funny-lookin'" pretty okay. And most classes won't make the PC's stand out any more than they do in a normal campaign, anyway. But a couple of 4e-isms just plain don't work in a campaign that is trying to evoke isolation, distrust, and terror of the unknown and different. It would be like throwing a fish-man race in a Cthulu campaign. No, these things are not heroes in this setting. Even if they might be in other settings, it ruins the mood here. They are horrific monsters, beasts of tremendous danger, and even that kid with the pointy ears should probably not be on the street after nightfall. 

Not that they won't make it work. They will. My guess is this will all be glossed over in about a sentence or two regarding how scary-xenophobic the place is and how the DM should play this up by having the PC's get a cold reception wherever they go. That will be enough for most people, I'm sure. But a 4e tiefling warlock is not a hero for a Gothic Europe-esque setting. It's a fine hero for a Fantasy Hodgepodge, but part of the appeal of other settings is that they aren't a Fantasy Hodgepodge. For a lot of purists, this will basically be blasphemy.

I solve this problem like I solve all my 4e problems: I don't DM 4e. 
_Edit_: I'm now DMing 4e. I like it. But I still wouldn't have warlocks in my Ravenloft campaign.


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## Shemeska (Sep 13, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> It would be like throwing a fish-man race in a Cthulu campaign.




I agree with literally every point you made in your last post, but that line there was made of awesome. Just saying.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Sep 13, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> Sure, but 4e in particular has a few weirdnesses that are going to make it more difficult.
> 
> For one, tieflings.
> 
> "Hey, what's with the horns? You a goat-man or summat?"



Something like that. It's a little more complicated. 



> For two, eladrin.
> 
> "Hey, I closed the door! How'd you get in!"
> "You see, I can cross between worlds for a moment, so mortal walls are no barrier to my --"
> LYNCHMOB'D!



I suppose this is an example of Darwinismn? Eladrin that teleport around carelessly are not fit to survive in a world full of lynch job?



> For three, warlocks.
> 
> "Sir, how did you slay that monster?"
> "I sold my soul to unspeakable otherworldly forces for the power to fart magic!"
> LYNCHMOB'D!



" am trained in the arcana arts."
LYNCHMOB'D!

Sorry, it doesn't really matter that you sold your soul to the devil. Either spellcasters are hated and feared, or they are not. If they are not, it's trivially easy to avoid prosecution from lynch-mobs. 



> For four, dragonborn.
> 
> "OH SWEET JESUS IT BREATHES FIRE AND WALKS AS A MAN! STAB IT! STAB IT NOW!"



Why is the Dragonborn breathing fire in public? Do you think they sneeze fire or what?




> Elves, dwarves, halflings...these critters can pass as "funny-lookin'" pretty okay.



"Funny-looking?" That's exactly what will get you killed in a paranoid, xenophobic culture. Pointy Ears, strange customs, unusual height? Who would trust them? 

Sure, you can create a world where only a subset of the funny-looking guys are feared and subject to xenophobic lynch mobs. But the "realistic" approach is to say that most societies only sport one race, and each other is feared or hated.

If I am not mistaken, the world of Ravenloft assumes that entire landscapes have been taken into the world. If an integrated community has been taken, it can only go two ways - either they destroy each other over their differences, or they keep integrated. 

So either you have some integrated communities that got adopted, or you have only isolated communities where one race keeps to itself and fears everything alien. 
Story-Wise, the only hope for these communities is probably to overcome their fears and work together, and envoys like adventurers might be your only choice.

Very often, the trick for "aliens" to avoid lynchmobs is not being there when something bad happens. Lynchmobs usually don't form just because you have a different skin or pointy ears, they form because the daughter of the tavern owner has disappeared and livestock was found dead. Then you'll start the lynch mobs.


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## I'm A Banana (Sep 13, 2008)

Mudstrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> I suppose this is an example of Darwinismn? Eladrin that teleport around carelessly are not fit to survive in a world full of lynch job?




Hahaha, true. But if they don't, think about what Eladrin are, from a flavor POV. They're otherworldly creatures from another realm, inscrutable and unusual. In a xenophobic place, they're monsters. I LOVE monsters-as-PC's (as my DMs will most surely attest!), but it's just disruptive in a campaign where the foreign is always considered evil. Ravenloft, from my experiences, was partially fun because of that. If you shun a half-elf for being "different," what is your reaction going to be to the inscrutable foreigner?

Core 4e D&D is very "modernist" like this. It's very _Tru Blood_. Vampires are people, too, just people that can't enter houses unless you invite them, kind of thing.

Ravenloft's mood would, I think, be ruined by this kind of acceptance. And because a world where you're always getting lynched isn't much fun for most PC's, the general answer to the question of "Can I play a creature regarded as a horrible monster?" should be "No." In Ravenloft, "horrible monster" is a pretty broad category that includes anything foreign. If it looks a bit like you, maybe it might be okay to let sleep on the street while the guards keep a sharp eye on it, but in a place of horror, _trust gets you killed_. The mists of Ravenloft were more than evocative window-dressing, they were a metaphor for the utter isolation of a world where the unknown killed you.

I mean, the night sky, in regular D&D, is a place of wonder and magic. In Cthulu, it's a place of madness and apathy. In Ravenloft, it's a place of death and terror. A campaign setting colors your world, and you shouldn't expect to be able to get away with the same things you could in D&D in Cthulu. 



> Sorry, it doesn't really matter that you sold your soul to the devil. Either spellcasters are hated and feared, or they are not. If they are not, it's trivially easy to avoid prosecution from lynch-mobs.




That's extremely disingenuous. Of course it mattes. Not all magic in D&D is the same -- clerics and paladins call on gods, wizards stick their noses in books, sword mages dance about, warlocks make pacts with otherworldly entities.

In an insular society, only one of those brings the outside to face you in a torrent of hellfire and damnation, and that's warlocks. When your setting is defined in part by _fear of the other_ someone that deliberately calls on the Other for power is something to be feared and killed, not something to hire to take care of your little vampire problem. 



> Why is the Dragonborn breathing fire in public? Do you think they sneeze fire or what?




Are all battles in your campaigns fought in a dark room with no one watching? Aren't there survivors, battle scars, evidence for what they can do? Do your PC's only magically gain the ability to use their powers when in battle, or do they use it as part of their character, lighting fires with fire breath and using teleportation to skip that patch of horse muck in the road?

Also, don't the dragonborn look like big lizard people with sharp pointy teeth and scaly skin and beaks? 

Anything I'd be scared to meet in a dark alley at night would probably be inappropriate for Ravenloft PC's, because the entire setting is the "dark alley at night" of D&D. This broadly probably includes frightening lizard-people who could eat you. 



> "Funny-looking?" That's exactly what will get you killed in a paranoid, xenophobic culture. Pointy Ears, strange customs, unusual height? Who would trust them?




You wouldn't be easily trusted, but you'd be familiar enough. Human variation produced every genetic "freak" at every circus ever. In Ravenloft, these are the children left to die as signs that the family lineage is cursed. Pointy ears happen, but they're not trusted. Unusual height happens, but it's not trusted. If such a creature were to survive to adulthood, you might recognize it as vaguely human, because such tragic beasts happen, but you wouldn't trust it. 

There is a threshold for freakiness. Part of the appeal of Ravenloft, to me, was that the threshold was significantly lower than it was in most D&D campaigns. The non-humans all were considered to be varying levels of accursed, depending on how "foriegn" they were to humans. If you don't consider Eladrin and Dragonborn and Tieflings to be more foriegn than elves, then I don't think you're quite properly grokking what xenophobic horror is really all about. If Elves are weird (and, in previous editions of Ravenloft, elves were weird), then what should be the reaction to tieflings, who are MUCH weirder than any elf?

I'll put it in some more context: Ravenloft has a "gypsy people" (the Vistani). These gypsy people are, for all intents and purposes, humans. They are mistrusted wherever they go, seen as unholy, godless people without morals, who practice dark arts, and probably eat babies. They are thrown out of villages and become the scapegoats for whatever problems crop up. 

These are _humans_ who just don't live in towns. They inspire that level of fear. If someone with dark skin makes you freak out, then some guy with devil horns and a tail is going to blow your effin' gasket.

Though, to be honest, I really wouldn't have much of a problem with making Ravenloft a human-only setting. Add something to show some cultural variation for some mechanical choice (is your character Vistani? Barovian?), and I'd be perfectly happy with it. Gothic horror doesn't need dwarves. 



> If I am not mistaken, the world of Ravenloft assumes that entire landscapes have been taken into the world. If an integrated community has been taken, it can only go two ways - either they destroy each other over their differences, or they keep integrated.




Part of that depends on how 4e treats Ravenloft. If it still draws domains into itself, then integration is plausible. If it is it's own land off in the mountains somewhere, isolated and remote, it's less plausible.



> Very often, the trick for "aliens" to avoid lynchmobs is not being there when something bad happens. Lynchmobs usually don't form just because you have a different skin or pointy ears, they form because the daughter of the tavern owner has disappeared and livestock was found dead. Then you'll start the lynch mobs.




I would argue that this assumes a much less paranoid world than I have fun with. People close and lock their doors and shutter their windows when humans with a slightly different culture pass by. You don't take risks when the critter is massive and has scales and pointy teeth. You call on the local heroes to slay the thing.

This is because in Ravenloft, when "something bad happens," it's not just dead livestock and a disappearing daughter. It's "Your daughter gave birth to an unholy devil-child who then devoured her and all of your cattle and sits in a cocoon inside a cavern out back, slowly transforming into a hideous beast, all the while sending haunting nightmares to you and the rest of the town, which have a disturbing tendency to cause people to kill themselves in the middle of the night." You don't take _chances_ in a setting like that.


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## Remathilis (Sep 13, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> Not that they won't make it work. They will. My guess is this will all be glossed over in about a sentence or two regarding how scary-xenophobic the place is and how the DM should play this up by having the PC's get a cold reception wherever they go. That will be enough for most people, I'm sure. But a 4e tiefling warlock is not a hero for a Gothic Europe-esque setting. It's a fine hero for a Fantasy Hodgepodge, but part of the appeal of other settings is that they aren't a Fantasy Hodgepodge. For a lot of purists, this will basically be blasphemy.




Two things:

1.) IIRC, wizards, paladins, clerics, bards, druids, elves, dwarves, half-orcs, halfllings, and half-elves were all feared, shunned, or hated too, depending on the domain. Really, unless you were a human fighter or thief, you could COUNT on someone hating you based solely on appearance. 

2.) Fantasy Hodgepodge? As compared to the setting where Dracula, Frankenstein, the Wolf-Man, Vlad Tepest, Dr. Jekyll, and Amenhotep all are neighbors and you could have an all native-born party consisting of a renaissance scientist with a flint-lock, a sylvanesti elf white-tower wizard, a iron-age knight, and a Priest of Osiris adventuring in a vaguely Slavic nation.


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## I'm A Banana (Sep 13, 2008)

> 1.) IIRC, wizards, paladins, clerics, bards, druids, elves, dwarves, half-orcs, halfllings, and half-elves were all feared, shunned, or hated too, depending on the domain. Really, unless you were a human fighter or thief, you could COUNT on someone hating you based solely on appearance.




True enough. Part of the appeal, really. 



> 2.) Fantasy Hodgepodge? As compared to the setting where Dracula, Frankenstein, the Wolf-Man, Vlad Tepest, Dr. Jekyll, and Amenhotep all are neighbors and you could have an all native-born party consisting of a renaissance scientist with a flint-lock, a sylvanesti elf white-tower wizard, a iron-age knight, and a Priest of Osiris adventuring in a vaguely Slavic nation.




Yes, in that all of those are targeted at one genre, while the Core really isn't per se.


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## ShadowDenizen (Sep 13, 2008)

> They will. My guess is this will all be glossed over in about a sentence or two regarding how scary-xenophobic the place is and how the DM should play this up by having the PC's get a cold reception wherever they go. That will be enough for most people, I'm sure. But a 4e tiefling warlock is not a hero for a Gothic Europe-esque setting. It's a fine hero for a Fantasy Hodgepodge, but part of the appeal of other settings is that they aren't a Fantasy Hodgepodge. For a lot of purists, this will basically be blasphemy.




This.

I've been a RL fan since the original module (I6), and have been following it faithfully through it's many incarnations.

I think WW/Arthaus did a great job of keeping the setting alive and sheperding the system to 3.0/3.5.  There were MANY things they did right, and (realistically) a few things they could have improved on.

But I see 4E and RL as being antihetical to each other, at least in mood, tone and theme.  While 4E professes a "PoL" world, it seems (IMO) to take it's cue from Anime/Warcraft and more modern influences.

Ravenloft, on the other hand, has always been more cerebral, and has taken its cues from the "Gothic Horror" themes of classic films and literature, amongst other sources.  

I know we haven't heard much about 4E Ravenloft _specificially_, and as much as I hate to say, I fear the creators of 4E (from all that I've seen, heard and read from WotC over the last year or so), wouldn't "get" Ravenloft. (The Forgotten Realms was an easier transplant, and they totaly (IMO) botched that; how are they going to handle Ravenloft, which is a _fundementally_ different setting?) 

Sorry if this comes off as a bit of a rant, but I tend to get very protective of Ravenloft, as it's one of my all-time favroite settings!!


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## malraux (Sep 14, 2008)

Would foreign include any PCs that are able to traverse the mists?  Foreign is any character that wasn't born in that domain, right?


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## I'm A Banana (Sep 14, 2008)

> Would foreign include any PCs that are able to traverse the mists? Foreign is any character that wasn't born in that domain, right?




Well, it's not a hard-and-fast kind of thing. It's a continuum. "Foreign" in most of Ravenloft probably means "not from this village," but there's a swath of territory in between "not from this village," and "tiefling warlock" where probably the majority of D&D would be able to find a rough fit. Not everything, but certainly the lion's share. 

That said, anything that travels the mists (such as PC's who arrive from other lands) probably has some bad juju going on and should probably be avoided unless they are giving a direct and obvious benefit to you, and then maybe if you take the benefit, you are risking an unpleasant demise, so they better make it VERY worth your while. 

You might eventually let the human paladin sleep in the barn after he's saved your family from zombies at least twice, but he's going to have to WORK to get that barn-bed, because what's to say he won't die in his sleep and rise as one of those same things tomorrow?


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## Alzrius (Sep 14, 2008)

ShadowDenizen said:


> But I see 4E and RL as being antihetical to each other, at least in mood, tone and theme.  While 4E professes a "PoL" world, it seems (IMO) to take it's cue from Anime/Warcraft and more modern influences.




QFT.

The PoL theme seems (to me at least) to be fairly black-and-white in its depiction. There's a very clear ascendancy of evil, and a need for heroes to overthrow it, to the welcome joy of the rest of the (relatively powerless) world.

Ravenloft doesn't play that way. It is, for the most part, a place where there's just progressively darker shades of grey that lead to black. Heroes who look inhuman and/or dark aren't going to be treated as heroes, regardless of what they do, by the local populace. That's part of what I like about the Demiplane of Dread - heroes are very often punished, not rewarded, for being heroes; to me, that makes them all the more heroic.


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## TheSleepyKing (Sep 14, 2008)

ShadowDenizen said:


> I know we haven't heard much about 4E Ravenloft _specificially_, and as much as I hate to say, I fear the creators of 4E (from all that I've seen, heard and read from WotC over the last year or so), wouldn't "get" Ravenloft. (The Forgotten Realms was an easier transplant, and they totaly (IMO) botched that; how are they going to handle Ravenloft, which is a _fundementally_ different setting?)




I'm not really sure if it's a question of whether the designers "get" the setting (I give the enough credit to think that they do), it's more, I think, whether the Powers That Be at WoTC feel strategically comfortable putting out a setting that deviates in any way from core assumptions or invalidates any part of the PHB (like denying the presence some of the races, for example, as others have noted in this thread). 
In FR, at least, they showed that they didn't have the nerve to do so, even refusing to allow the Elven races of Toril to keep their names and making a kingdom of dragonborn magically appear out of nowhere. Given that Ravenloft is only appearing in Dragon for now, however, they might be willing to do so. Sales aren't going to be an issue for them, so hopefully they'll abandon some of the extreme caution they've demonstrated with 4e publishing so far and go all-in with Ravenloft as a setting of gothic horror. We'll find out soon enough, I suppose.


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## The Little Raven (Sep 14, 2008)

TheSleepyKing said:


> even refusing to allow the Elven races of Toril to keep their names




That's funny, because the information about sun, moon, wild, wood, and drow elves in the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide would disagree.



> and making a kingdom of dragonborn magically appear out of nowhere.




That's how everyone else got into the Forgotten Realms, too. It's the setting of "a portal opened up and another fantasy race showed up to join the melting pot."


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## ProtoClone (Sep 14, 2008)

That is cool they are bring Ravenloft back into the company fold.  Of the setting I only really liked Strahd and Azalin.  I am sure Strahd will be the one staying for the merger in to 4e.  As for Azalin, I really hope he makes it.  Besides Strahd, his story and damnation in Ravenloft was good, real good.  But when he had been duped in to thinking he could escape, priceless.

Soth died back on Krynn when he rejected Takihisis' proposal of ground general of the new super power...after, as Mina put it, Takihisis went through all that trouble and effort to rescue him from that very dark place.


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## Banshee16 (Sep 14, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> DING DING DING DING DING.
> 
> Someone's tiefling warlock and someone's dragonborn paladin and someone's eladrin ninjarogue will be able to tackle the castle and kill Strahd.
> 
> ...




Some people might like having a paladin in the domains of dread, or a scaly skinned, horned demonspawn warlord.  And that's cool.  But it's not Ravenloft....at least it's not Ravenloft the way the setting was conceptualized.

It's Dracula....not Hellboy..

If someone happens to like that, fine.  I just wish they would give it a new name, rather taking a much-loved setting, and turning it into something very, very different.

Banshee


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## Banshee16 (Sep 14, 2008)

Irda Ranger said:


> What's the point of having different campaign settings then if they're all just the same races, classes and cultures? Different maps?




True this....

2nd Ed. was much better at creating viable, different campaign settings than 3E was...in some ways.  Or, I guess I should explain this a little better.

There's nothing wrong with limiting choice of race or class in particular settings, if it helps to maintain the "feel" of the setting.  Not all races fit all games.  I wouldn't be a huge fan of having tieflings and dragonborn in Ravenloft.  Races like elves, dwarves, and halflings are inhuman enough, and they can be in dangerous situations if they walk into the wrong bar in Ravenloft.  And they don't have the ability to breath fire or anything like that....so they're less of a threat than some of the other monstrous races are.

Now, I could see that they might have a *domain* where a town of dragonborn was pulled into the mists.  So you've got dragonborn in the setting.  And they can walk around without being killed on sight....in that domain.  But go to Barovia or Falkovnia or Sithicus or one of the others, and it's happy hour for the guys with torches and pitchforks.

Banshee


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## Banshee16 (Sep 14, 2008)

Treebore said:


> As for making DoD part of the core, its easy to do. When I did my "Conglomerate World", where I have every setting I like that isn't its own full world, I put this HUGE black cloud bank down in the southwest corner between the continents of Airhde and the continent of Cascandia. Guess what that huge cloud bank encloses? Yep, you guessed it, the Domains of Dread. Works fine. I even threw in the Island of King Kong nearby just for the fun of it, since Necromancer Games did such a nice 3E version of it.




In what module did Necromancer do King Kong's island?  I didn't know they had....

Banshee


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## Kishin (Sep 14, 2008)

Add my voice to the ones calling for a return of Van Richten. There was a great feel to that material (and to all of Ravenloft, really) that I really hope they can recapture. Since we're on a musical subtheme within this set, It would be as disappointing as a legendary band returning from retirement and the world finding them much diminished (The Police, I'm looking at you).



			
				ProtoClone said:
			
		

> As for Azalin, I really hope he makes it.




This too. I can't see them not keeping Azalin, though. He's iconic of Ravenloft. Also, we saw a lot of love go into the 3.5E Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, so I'm hoping that can be pulled off again.



			
				Mercule said:
			
		

> The insipid multiculturalism in 4e is possibly the most annoying aspect of the PoL,



D&D fantasy has always been 'insipidly multicultural'. In fact, most heroic fantasy leans in that direction regardless.



ProfessorCirno said:


> "Emo" has changed a lot.  The current look of emo is pretty far detatched from what it used to be.  You can thank the formulaic drivel of Dashboard for that.




Actually, considering his usage of open tunings and odd chordings, Chris Carabba is a leagues better songwriter than his contemporaries in say, My Chemical Romance. I'm still not a fan, but you have to a musician credit where credit is due.

Still, this tripe is a far cry from Sunny Day Real Estate. But I digress. Bring on the Demiplane of Dread!


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## ShadowDenizen (Sep 14, 2008)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> Ravenloft doesn't play that way. It is, for the most part, a place where there's just progressively darker shades of grey that lead to black. Heroes who look inhuman and/or dark aren't going to be treated as heroes, regardless of what they do, by the local populace.




Yup, the "shades of grey" aspect is very important (IMO) to Ravenloft; it's a setting where the Darklords aren't MEANT to be defeated, they're meant to be twisted reflections of the characters and what they could become once they begin to embrace the Dark Powers.

That, again, seems to be in direct conflict to the 4E philosophy.


----------



## SweeneyTodd (Sep 14, 2008)

On the other hand, I dare say some people will look at the arguments in this thread regarding "classic" Ravenloft -- that it's a pretty darn hard place to adventure -- and go "Okay, well, then, if they're throwing all that out... sounds like it'll be more fun." As great and atmospheric as Ravenloft is, there are elements about it that basically swat you on the nose for adventuring; some people won't miss that.

Sorry, you gotta expect it to happen. Hey, my initial Ravenloft experience was one of those AD&D choose your own adventure books -- that thing went straight from entering Barovia to taking your paladin and hunting down the Count with your _sunsword_ and _rod of lordly might_. There's room for all kinds of stories in the setting, even those with pretty drastically different themes.


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## Vocenoctum (Sep 14, 2008)

SweeneyTodd said:


> On the other hand, I dare say some people will look at the arguments in this thread regarding "classic" Ravenloft -- that it's a pretty darn hard place to adventure -- and go "Okay, well, then, if they're throwing all that out... sounds like it'll be more fun." As great and atmospheric as Ravenloft is, there are elements about it that basically swat you on the nose for adventuring; some people won't miss that.
> <snip>
> There's room for all kinds of stories in the setting, even those with pretty drastically different themes.




This is where we get to the "Making Ravenloft 4e" vs "Inserting some Ravenloft into 4e".

If you're going to conceptualize the Domains of Dread into a setting, it needs to maintain some distinctiveness from a traditional setting. If you're going to make a "horror" setting, then you have to avoid watering it down so much that it's just another PoL setting. It may be a delicate balance, when removing a players control over his character, between evoking feelings of horror vs evoking anger, but that's what "how to run" articles are for.

If you simply wash it out to the point that the player won't lose control, simply to avoid the potential for angering them, it's pointless.

Ravenloft works on the other level too, interjecting horror themes into the standard PoL without having to use the full mechanics that set Domains of Dread apart. Expedition to Castle Ravenloft was more about the original adventure than it was about the campaign setting, and that's cool in it's own way. This would fit in better with 4e's design philosophy, IMO, and allow for them to set up the situations better.

Just, for the love of god, don't label something as "the new Ravenloft campaign setting" and then give some washed out "how to kill a darklord" stuff that just pisses off fans of the original setting.


(For Dragon/ Dungeon, I think it could work well with a setup like "Darklords", Dragon highlights a specific darklord and his domain. Then Dungeon has an adventure in that setting.)


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## Dire Bare (Sep 14, 2008)

Well, I for one will withhold judgement, positive or negative, until I get a chance to actually read the article.

I am just amazed at all the whining about how WotC will destroy Ravenloft to be a bit premature.

I know not everyone in the thread is doing that, but it is overwhelming.

Sigh, welcome to the internets, I know.


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## Staffan (Sep 14, 2008)

TheSleepyKing said:


> In FR, at least, they showed that they didn't have the nerve to do so, even refusing to allow the Elven races of Toril to keep their names



They still have their cultural and cosmetic differences, but I for one am happy to see the mechanical differences between a dozen different types of elves erased.


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## Remathilis (Sep 14, 2008)

ShadowDenizen said:


> Yup, the "shades of grey" aspect is very important (IMO) to Ravenloft; it's a setting where the Darklords aren't MEANT to be defeated, they're meant to be twisted reflections of the characters and what they could become once they begin to embrace the Dark Powers.
> 
> That, again, seems to be in direct conflict to the 4E philosophy.




Which makes Ravenloft a fun place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there. Much like Midnight, a setting where you cannot win, just merely do some good before you die is fun for a while, but eventually unsatisfying to me.

Much more the point: Ravenloft as a setting required a certain amount of vulnerability. 2e Ravenloft did this in three ways: 1.) making everything that wasn't mundane shunned and feared (and making a great deal of the mundane suspicious as well). 2.) Attacking a PCs weaknesses (fear, horror, madness, curses) and 3.) changing, corrupting, or outright removing PC options and powers that would otherwise give them a position of strength (divination, druids, paladins, spell-changing, familiars!)

This all added up to a setting where the PCs were constantly behind the 8-ball; the simple comforts of safe haven, reliable magic, etc. It basically said "I'm changing the rules so your screwed. If at anytime you think not screwed, you secretly are". Unfortunately, this runs smack dab against the design philosophies of third (options not restrictions) and fourth (all classes should be viable/useful). This is why Arhaus's 3e Ravenloft lacked the same feel as 2e's Domains of Dread; they tried to apply a 3e mindset to Ravenloft and allow more options (some with a cost) that made Ravenloft less "gothic horror hodgepodge" and more "fantasy seen through a darkened lens". 

Any attempt to recapture the feel of 2e Ravenloft, IMHO, is doomed to fail unless your willing to gut and rebuild the game around it. WotC has pressed a position of "PCs are Heroes, beyond mortal men" that is fine for fantasy but sucks for gothic horror. WotC would be wiser to lean on the Ravenloft that _Expedition to Castle Ravenloft_ used; part of a larger world where heroes come from, but a dark and dangerous corner of it steeped in Gothic flavor, but ultimately closer to D&D with vampires than a different setting.

Which, unless WotC suprises me, is what they are going to so.


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## ProfessorCirno (Sep 14, 2008)

Dire Bare said:


> Well, I for one will withhold judgement, positive or negative, until I get a chance to actually read the article.
> 
> I am just amazed at all the whining about how WotC will destroy Ravenloft to be a bit premature.
> 
> ...




Because judging something based entirely on their own previous works is bad now?  Nobody here has ZERO INFORMATION regarding this.  We have TONS of information.  We know lots about the default setting.  We know how Wizards handled the changes in Forgotten Realms.  We know what themes they enjoy putting into their 4e settings.  We have a basic idea of how and what they do when developing or changing settings.

We're not running around blind just because we harbor distrust.


----------



## TarionzCousin (Sep 15, 2008)

Dire Bare said:


> Well, I for one will withhold judgement, positive or negative, until I get a chance to actually read the article.



You crazy rebel, you. 



Banshee16 said:


> It's Dracula....not Hellboy..
> 
> If someone happens to like that, fine.  I just wish they would give it a new name, rather taking a much-loved setting, and turning it into something very, very different.



The old name will sell better, so to speak. If they tried something new that was moderately close to the old Ravenloft, the nerdrage would build up so high that meteors would be summoned down from the heavens and rain hot fire down upon the WotC offices until there was nothing left but a giant smoking crater.



TheSleepyKing said:


> Given that Ravenloft is only appearing in Dragon for now, however, they might be willing to do so. Sales aren't going to be an issue for them, so hopefully they'll abandon some of the extreme caution they've demonstrated with 4e publishing so far and go all-in with Ravenloft as a setting of gothic horror. We'll find out soon enough, I suppose.



Yeah, that would be wonderful.


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## JLowder (Sep 16, 2008)

Vocenoctum said:


> Ravenloft co-opted Soth, and when Weis/Hickman made another DL novel, they ignored Ravenloft entirely, keeping Soth always/forever in DL.
> 
> TSR then came up with a RL excuse for it, to cover the settings.




This has all been covered before, in various interviews, but it looks like it needs to be repeated again, at least in bullet-point form.

* Margaret and Tracy were not on great terms with TSR when the decision was made to move Soth to Ravenloft. They were offered the chance to write the novel, review the manuscript, etc. (I was the Ravenloft fiction line editor at the time and made the call to Margaret.) They refused. Not a surprise. They were not even writing Dragonlance books for the company at the time.

* It was not my decision to move Soth from Krynn to Ravenloft; the decision had been made before I was assigned the Ravenloft book line as editor. However, I lobbied hard for TSR to support the idea that Soth would be able to leave Ravenloft, should Margaret and Tracy come back to writing Dragonlance. 

* I reluctantly ended up writing that first Soth Ravenloft novel because, in large part, the other potential writers were proposing substantial changes to Soth's character. My premise for Soth's stay in Ravenloft--as shown in the two novels I wrote--was that he would begin his imprisonment tormented by imperfect versions of his story. He would eventually be all but paralyzed by these false tales. Then, when he reclaimed his true story--basically, got back to where he was when he entered the Mists--he would leave the Dark Domains and return to Krynn. Since it's never revealed how the Dark Powers work, it's unclear if he escaped, was taught a lesson, or simply found a pre-existing doorway out. On a storytelling level, I built the mechanism for that escape into the first novel, since I was assuming Soth would eventually be sprung. So that departure was not an excuse TSR or WotC cobbled together; it was the plan from the start, at least as far as I and several others were concerned. If WotC had not brought me back to write _Spectre_, it could have played out very differently. This was, however, a case where the original plan played out largely as envisioned.

* Time moves differently on Krynn and in Ravenloft, so Soth could have spent 100 years in the Dark Domains and been gone from Krynn 10 seconds or 10 minutes or 10 years. There is no reason, in terms of continuity, that the Ravenloft books can't fit with the published Dragonlance material. At the same time, the DL material need not actively support the Ravenloft "interlude" for Soth, since it occurred in such a way that his absence need not be explained away. To Soth it might have all seemed a nightmare, but one that ended with him reaffirming his identity. So there's no need to explain that away, either.

* It is neither my call, nor Margaret and Tracy's, on whether Soth ever went to Ravenloft. The last official word I had from WotC was that the two Sithicus novels were considered official. If WotC staffers change their mind on that, we could have a different ruling. Hasbro owns the character and all the books. Last I heard, the Ravenloft novels were official. WotC and Hasbro recently approved the publication of a comic book adaptation of the Soth-in-Ravenloft story "The Rigor of the Game" in _Worlds of Dungeons & Dragons_ issue #3, so it seems they're still canon. Tomorrow, someone from WotC could post here and say that's changed and they're no longer official continuity. Two years from now, someone else could take over in Renton and rule them canon again.

That's the nature of shared world work.

Cheers,
James Lowder
www.jameslowder.com


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## Cam Banks (Sep 16, 2008)

JLowder said:


> To Soth it might have all seemed a nightmare, but one that ended with him reaffirming his identity. So there's no need to explain that away, either.




Possibly one of the clearest and most sensible approaches ever, Jim. Thanks. Our situation, of course, was that we had no Ravenloft license, and as you say it really didn't come into the overall story for Krynn much, if at all; the good news is, those two books do a very good job of portraying Soth as a tortured yet powerful figure on the same footing as Strahd, which I always liked. 

Cheers,
Cam


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## Shemeska (Sep 16, 2008)

James, thank you very much for your insight on the Soth issue. That sort of insider view really does clear up a lot of the speculation and perpetual internet rumor mill on the topic, and it's really cool to here about what went into the creative process regarding Soth from your end with your novels, trying to balance it with considerations from two settings' perspectives.

Awesome.


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## JLowder (Sep 16, 2008)

Cam Banks said:


> Possibly one of the clearest and most sensible approaches ever, Jim. Thanks. Our situation, of course, was that we had no Ravenloft license, and as you say it really didn't come into the overall story for Krynn much, if at all; the good news is, those two books do a very good job of portraying Soth as a tortured yet powerful figure on the same footing as Strahd, which I always liked.




Thanks, Cam. I worked hard to make certain Soth stayed consistent with the character as portrayed by Margaret and Tracy. And they got him back as they had left him.

I certainly understand why any writers might be annoyed or disappointed that TSR/WotC/Hasbro decided to use characters or setting elements they created in a way they had not intended. That loss of control is a big downside to shared world contracts.

Cheers,
Jim


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## Vocenoctum (Sep 16, 2008)

JLowder said:


> This has all been covered before, in various interviews, but it looks like it needs to be repeated again, at least in bullet-point form.



To be clear, I'm not criticizing Soth In Ravenloft, or the work done on him there. I had left the game before his novels came out, but overall liked all the RL stuff from when I read it. 



> * It was not my decision to move Soth to Krynn; the decision had been made before I was assigned the book line as editor. However, I lobbied hard for TSR to support the idea that Soth would be able to leave Ravenloft, should Margaret and Tracy come back to writing Dragonlance.



Do you mean "to move Soth to Ravenloft"?


> That's the nature of shared world work.
> 
> Cheers,
> James Lowder
> www.jameslowder.com




Definitely, and thanks for the post. What I mostly meant is that Weis/Hickman wrote him in DL as if he never went to RL. And that it was not really that TSR decided "hey, lets move him back to DL", so much as that's just how the book was written.


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## JLowder (Sep 16, 2008)

Vocenoctum said:


> What I mostly meant is that Weis/Hickman wrote him in DL as if he never went to RL. And that it was not really that TSR decided "hey, lets move him back to DL", so much as that's just how the book was written.




Let's be clear here: Margaret and Tracy were _allowed_ to write Soth back into Krynn. If Wizards did not want it to happen and the authors would not cooperate by changing the text, the editors in the book department would have simply changed it for them. The owner of the intellectual property has final say here, not the writers. That's part of the standard WotC work-for-hire contract.

A smart publisher/IP owner works with the creators rather than dictating to them, allows for creative latitude rather than micromanaging content, but the contract sets up a specific balance of power that does not favor the writers.

As I understand it, Margaret and Tracy said they wanted to use the character of Soth again in their books. I was not part of that discussion, so I don't know how that conversation played out. What I can relate from firsthand experience is what happened next: Wizards mulled over the decision and brought in other people to discuss the matter, from both the Dragonlance and Ravenloft teams, both games and fiction. The move was only approved for the Dragonlance books after both teams were satisfied. Margaret and Tracy got what they wanted, but only because Wizards _allowed_ that to happen.

I was not working for Wizards at the time; they asked me if I wanted to write the Ravenloft novel that explained Soth's move back to Krynn. I was enthusiastic about the idea, since I had built the escape route into the first book and was hoping Soth would make it back to Krynn when Margaret and Tracy wanted to use him. But I had some conditions about participating--I wanted the plot, overall, to play out a certain way. Wizards liked what I wanted to do, so that was _allowed_ to go forward in _Spectre of the Black Rose_.

Authors writing novels for TSR and Wizards have had more or less power in determining the direction and content of their books, depending upon the company philosophy at the time, as well as the work style of the people running the book department, the different lines, even editing the individual books. (Right now, with the Realms and Ravenloft and the other settings, we're seeing a top-down approach in action, where the company role in determining content is open and obvious; that may have a different direct impact from project to project, but the overall metaplot is being driven by people inside WotC.) And some authors have more clout than others. 

But at the end of the day, unless their contracts specifically deviate from the standard work-for-hire agreement, authors do not make decisions without someone inhouse authorizing them to do so.

Cheers,
Jim Lowder


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## ShadowDenizen (Sep 16, 2008)

Hey, James!

I know the "Soth" topic comes up with fair regularity, so it's kind of you to set the record straight (again.)  And it's always interesting to get a "Behind-the-scenes" peek into the creative process, and how it interacts with the mundane business-needs of a company.

And, as you state, it's easy to reconcile both the "RL" SOth and the "DL" Soth; the two need not be mutually exclusive for gamers.  (Indeed, "When Black Roses Bloom" is in my top 10 list of RL modules, and your two Soth novels were highlights of the fiction line.)

TO keep this on topic; I'll certainly read the Dragon magaine with the RL material before making a final judgement, but, based on all I've seen, heard and read over the last year or so from WotC, I unfortunately don't hold much confidence.  (I'm particuarly curious if they intend to use the whole RL setting, or if they're just going to transplant Soth and/or Barovia into the default "PoL" setting, or some sort of hybrid of the two.)


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## Amphimir Míriel (Sep 17, 2008)

The average barovian villager would be making covert hex signs at the entire party and he will call on the lynchmob if he feels he can get away with it.

In his eyes, the Human Paladin, dressed in ornate plate armor with strange runes and signs and carrying a jeweled longsword is just as alien as the Tiefling or the Eladrin in the group.

Also, it doesnt matter that the Cleric claims his magic comes from his deity. If he can do greater miracles than the local parish priest, then its the lynchmob for him.




ShadowDenizen said:


> But I see 4E and RL as being antihetical to each other, at least in mood, tone and theme.  While 4E professes a "PoL" world, it seems (IMO) to take it's cue from Anime/Warcraft and more modern influences.




...but of course, if this thread is going to devolve into a "4e is anime/videogame", then its useless to continue debating.

The question is, IMHO, "can you do 4e Ravenloft" and the answer, for me at least, is yes.

Some DMs might want to restrict Ravenloft PCs to be "human-only" or some may not. Its up to you, and you don't have to inyect dragonborn into your village of inbred hicks just because WotC says so.

I would like to have a 4e Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, however. YMMV


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## Phaezen (Sep 17, 2008)

The Janus Gull article has a very Ravenloft feel to it, and could be one way they might be moving with the demiplanes in 4e.  COuld actualy work quite nicely.

Here is the link:

Expeditionary Dispatches: Janus Gull


Phaezen


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## ShadowDenizen (Sep 17, 2008)

> ...but of course, if this thread is going to devolve into a "4e is anime/videogame", then its useless to continue debating.




I think you misinterpreted my post that you quoted, *Miriel*; there's CLEARLY no attempt to devolve the thread or start a flame-war .

On my part, I was merely stating my opinion on what I percieve the influences of 4E to be, and compare/contrast them to what the RL influences have historically been, and how they seem fundamemtally different.  (If you notice, I made a point of prefacing the statment you quoted with a "IMO" disclaimer.)

Sorry if you think of it as "flaming" or "trolling"; I think of it as debating and discussing a setting I love, and how well it will (or will not) adapt to a fundamentally new ruleset and philosophy. (THAT, to me, is the question under discussion.)


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## ProfessorCirno (Sep 17, 2008)

ShadowDenizen said:


> I think you misinterpreted my post that you quoted, *Miriel*; there's CLEARLY no attempt to devolve the thread or start a flame-war .
> 
> On my part, I was merely stating my opinion on what I percieve the influences of 4E to be, and compare/contrast them to what the RL influences have historically been, and how they seem fundamemtally different.  (If you notice, I made a point of prefacing the statment you quoted with a "IMO" disclaimer.)
> 
> Sorry if you think of it as "flaming" or "trolling"; I think of it as debating and discussing a setting I love, and how well it will (or will not) adapt to a fundamentally new ruleset and philosophy. (THAT, to me, is the question under discussion.)




Ah, but you forget where you are Shadow.  This is the place where people will praise 4e for being simplified, and then abuse and attack someone on the very next page who agrees that it's simplified, but sees it as a bad thing, screaming "it's not dumbed down or simplified!  It's JUST as complex, so long as that's taken to be a good thing!"


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## La Bete (Sep 17, 2008)

ProfessorCirno said:


> Ah, but you forget where you are Shadow.  This is the place where people will praise 4e for being simplified, and then abuse and attack someone on the very next page who agrees that it's simplified, but sees it as a bad thing, screaming "it's not dumbed down or simplified!  It's JUST as complex, so long as that's taken to be a good thing!"




Pssst! Your Shtick is showing!


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## NilesB (Sep 18, 2008)

ShadowDenizen said:


> I think you misinterpreted my post that you quoted, *Miriel*;




If he did, then you wrote something other then what you meant. 


My view of what Ravenloft needs will probably anger some fans but here it is anyway.

1> Ravenloft needs less focus on the Domain lords. Ravenloft adventures have a tendency to turn into a kind of Rosenkrantz and Guildenstern are dead scenario with the PCs flitting about impotently in the background while the real drama plays out between NPCs.

An aid to this would be an end to the strict correlation between Domains and Polities, Another would be to offer multiple candidates or backstories and curses for the lords of some domains(this would also increase suspense and DM ownership of their campaigns).

2> Ravenloft's effectiveness as a horror setting is diminished by intense focus of the setting on doing horror and only horror. werewolves and undead aren't especially scary if they're the only things you fight. Wouldn't it be nice for the PCs on learning that a monster is tormenting the village each night, not to immediately start eyeing the townsfolk to see which one of them is secretly the monster? 

3> Ravenloft needs less "screw the PCs" and "undead are better than you" mechanics because those mechanics always sucked.


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## Treebore (Sep 18, 2008)

Wow! People actually ran Ravenloft where they fought the domain lords and frequently fought werewolves and undead? DM's didn't create their own domains and lords? They didn't rewrite existing Domain Lords to fit what they want?

Thats depressing. I always thought DM's used the undead and other monsters relatively sparingly in order to highten how scary they are. Well, except in the case of wererats. I think the scariest things about them is that they attacked in swarms. So when you kick over their lair, watch out! I also thought Ravenloft DM's created Domain Lords of their own, and rewrote/changed any established Domain Lord to fit their campaign needs. Plus use the Domain Lords as the climax of the campaign, or campaign story arc.

It sure seemed to me to be that way, maybe it was just the Ravenloft DM's who hung out on the same message board I did before it was shut down 3 or 4 years ago.

If that has been the problem I certainly hope WOTC uses this opportunity to teach DM's how to run their Ravenloft campaigns better.


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## Mouseferatu (Sep 18, 2008)

Treebore said:


> Wow! People actually ran Ravenloft where they fought the domain lords and frequently fought werewolves and undead? DM's didn't create their own domains and lords? They didn't rewrite existing Domain Lords to fit what they want?




Why _wouldn't_ people use the existing domains and lords?

While some were silly, quite a few were really interesting. It'd be silly not to use them just because someone else wrote them, especially since one's playing in a published setting to begin with.

One of the best campaigns I ever ran was a mini-campaign (5 games) set in Ravenloft, that made heavy use of Strahd and his backstory. And the campaign _wouldn't have worked_ any other way, precisely because it _did_ draw on a legend and backstory that all the players already knew.

Sure, not every campaign--not even the majority--should revolve around darklords. And DMs should never be afraid to create their own. But neither is there any good reason _not_ to use them, when it's appropriate to do so.


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## Vocenoctum (Sep 18, 2008)

NilesB said:


> 1> Ravenloft needs less focus on the Domain lords.




I think you're wrong here, because I don't think it WAS focused on the domain lords, in general. There were quite a few domains where the Lord wasn't Lord in an obvious way. The interaction with the players varied a lot also.



> 2> Ravenloft's effectiveness as a horror setting is diminished by intense focus of the setting on doing horror and only horror.




I think this and #1 both come from a perception perpetuated by the internet/ others opinions of RL. It's like CoC's "rotating PC" joke.

If you look at any of the adventures, and a lot of the other material, Ravenloft frequently ignored the "a lord can't die" thing, and "no one can escape ravenloft" was meant as a way of stopping players from teleporting out mid adventure. At the end of each published adventure, the group returns to the material world. At the start of each adventure, the team is drawn into the mists.

The idea of setting an entire campaign in RL, IMO, really wasn't strong until later on. The players were always outsiders coming into a situation, for good or ill.


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## qstor (Sep 18, 2008)

Irda Ranger said:


> Concerned because:
> 1. I saw what "making Forgotten Realms core" did to FR.
> 2. A full Domains of Dread would not fit in a Dragon Mag; what are they cutting out?
> 3. A culture within WotC that seems unclear on the difference between Emo/goth and actual Gothic horror. I'm looking at you, Tiefling entry in _Races & Classes_.
> ...




Tieflings and Dragonborn welcome to Ravenloft. Bill Slavicsek has said that each setting will be Core in 4e. So 4e will butcher all of TSR/WOTC's old settings.

Mike


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## harzerkatze (Nov 12, 2008)

I am another Ravenloft fan eager to find out whether Ravenloft will make a comeback in 4th Ed. I am of the following mindset:
- Any try to bring it back is good, because if I don't like it, I will ignore it.
- I too think that 4th Ed is less suited for Ravenloft than former Editions. Even if you have no Dragonborn etc. to deal with, a wizards casting Scorching Burst (a 15 ' fireball) all day long does not lend itself to Gothic Horror easily. To take it seriously, you would have to limit classes to the martial classes, because all others routinously display supernatural abilities that should scare the townfolk. In my Ravenloft 4th Ed try, I will tell the players that any display of supernatural power will provoke a lynchmop. So playing a human or elven fighter or ranger is easy. If you want to play a Warlock, Swordmage or Psaladin, you can, but in many battles can't use your powers. Better be able to use a base attack, too. I think that is just necessary for the feel of the setting. 
I'll still try to play my Doppelganger Wizard I love so much when it is my turn to be player, and think of ways to be effective without my powerful spells in public. 
It's a challenge.
- There are very different concepts what Ravenloft is really about. What was prominent for me was that problems are larger than you and that you need to think outside the box to solve them, you can't just whack them with a stick a lot. 4th Ed is the direct opposite: Challenges are designed mathematically to be usually overcome by the right conventional strategy. Not that that os difficult to change, but it is a different design view and may cause unexpected problems.

So at least a lot of work is necessary to make a credible 4th-Ed-Ravenloft.

However, IF you want to try a 4th-Ed Ravenloft Campaign with existing rules, a few things work in your favour, on the other hand:
- Curses and diseases have become REALLY scary. Unless you happen to have the Endurance skill, you will most probably not heal a disease by yourself, and the only cure then is a ritual that will quite likely kill you. And gets worse the higher your level is (if the disease usually has your level). This rule screams for a campaign where the heroes are in a city that is quarantines because the black death has been starting there. If I was a player in that campaign, I would be REALLY scared. Same goes with Lycanthropes: Before they were dangerous because they had Damage Resistance, now you really fear them for their disease. Because Cuse Disease and remove curse are no longer minor spells.
- The Minion rules mean that a townfolk lynchmop now is a real danger, no matter what your level. Before, you could be reasonable sure that when you are level 10, a few farmers with pitchforks will not be able to hurt you. Now they are, and die much more easily, which faster gets you to the dark side.


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## Nahat Anoj (Nov 12, 2008)

harzerkatze said:


> - I too think that 4th Ed is less suited for Ravenloft than former Editions.



The first Domains of Dread article seemed to fit the Ravenloft feel just fine, IMO.  *shrug*


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## Kesh (Nov 12, 2008)

Jonathan Moyer said:


> The first Domains of Dread article seemed to fit the Ravenloft feel just fine, IMO.  *shrug*



I agree entirely. The new approach, making Domains of Dread pockets within the Shadowfell, works perfectly for me. It allows you to bring back the classic one-adventure trip to "Ravenloft," or you could have your PCs stuck in the Shadowfell as they progress from one Domain to another.

_Manual of the Planes_ is supposed to have a more in-depth writeup on Domains of Dread, so I'm looking forward to that.


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## doctorhook (Nov 12, 2008)

Hey, a necrothread about Ravenloft! Ironic! 

I'm also curious about 4E Ravenloft; it has the potential to be very cool! (And it's practically made for Points of Light!)


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## harzerkatze (Nov 13, 2008)

Thinking about the problem of integrating the new races into a Ravenloft campaign, I think it could boil down to this: It's not what you are, it's what you do.

Remember, in the old Ravenloft campaigns, there were the Caliban, hulking misfigures brutes born under a curse or a bad star. Those weren't generally burned at the stake at first sight, either. One of the 3rd Ed Ravenloft books includes a caliban travelling Ravenloft (from Rokushima, I think) that hs that head of a tiger. The leap from there to a dragonborn is not all that great. With Eladrin, I see almost no problem at all, seeing that they look like elves, mostly. Tieflings are problematic, but can probably be thrown under the Caliban excuse, too.

The thing is, except for domains with an active inquisition like Tepest, villagers will NOT burn you at first sight if you are malformed. They will distrust you, keep their children from you, order you to go away and so on. It may be hard work and take some heroics to just get them to let you stay in the shack at the edge of town. But my understanding is, mobs form because things happen, not because you are malformed. An Eladrin will not be killed as long as he does not show off his teleportation. A Dragonborn will create a fearful mob with breasthing fire, but not by having scales.

One reason for that is that while it is true that in Ravenloft, evil tends to grow unless kept in check, it is even more true that he who asks for it gets it. There is no thing more dangerous than standing in for what you believe here. Curses are so frequent that every peasant will think twice to kill a gypsy or caliban, lest their curse be transferred to him. Why is so much evil afoot in Ravenloft? Because it is safer for people to try to ignore evil than to make a stand. Burn one wrong victim and the Powers of Ravenloft will give you their evil blessing. People don't tell Strahd's Minions to leave the beggar alone. They don't go out to hunt the monster. Tehy lock and bar their doors instead, unless they feel they have no other option than to fight. Because evil may go away and eat someone else, but it will eat me if I raise my head. Tall poppy syndrome is rampamt in ravenloft. Thus, a tearful story how you stoned that caliban in your home village only to wake up the next day malformed with horns and scales just like him will probably keep the pitchforks off your back as long as you BEHAVE like a human, not a monster.

For that reason, I think it is feasonable to have the new races in Ravenloft. The point is, it will be a hard secretitive life for the new races, and they have to keep their abilities hidden, just as wizards, warlocks, paladins etc. will in most domains.

It may be another question if it is worth playing an Eladrin if you can only teleport in exceptional circumstances, but that is for the player to decide. As a player who loves playing e.g. Doppelgangers, I can tell you that is is sufficient for me to know that I can change my shape to really like my character's race, even if circumstance dictate that I in practice always carry the same face. Many players are drawn to a specific race by their flavor, and it can be rewarding to allow them to play it, even if it is restrictive.

Also keep in mind that Ravenloft can mean very different styles of play. A dragonborn may not fit into a real Gothic Horror story, but then again, the very concept of a hero may not, either. In most Gothic Horror stories I read, there weren't any real heroes: The villans were brought down by fate, by hubris, by their own designs. Like a quote in one of vthe Ravenloft Source books says: Gothic Horror is like a primitoive detective story where Fate, or God, play the rolem of the detective. 
The "heroes" were just like spectators, watching in horror as the tragedy plays out.
That's not how most play Ravenloft, so be ready to think what Ravenloft means for you. Gothic Horror? Survival Horror? The Hunchback of Notre Dame, Silent Hill or Resident Evil 4? There are many styles of play possible in Ravenloft. The new Races may be impossible in some and not in others.


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## Joël of the FoS (Nov 13, 2008)

My review for the first article. I'm a long term Ravenloft fan.

Not bad for a start. The story has a cool darklord and a horrible curse for her. But it won’t appeal to all Ravenloft fans: 

The new domain of Sunderheart itself is fun, part MotRD (the Poe story for the on going party), part Lankhmar (the undead coming back to visit the city) for feel and ideas. 

The domain is the mirror image in Shadowfell of a place that also exist in the prime material world, which is IIRC how WotC wants to treat the new domains of dread. We’ll see how this goes when we have more information on the mechanics of these new domains of dread. As I wrote elsewhere, I just hope WotC doesn’t plunder the classic Ravenloft setting for spare parts in 4e. That some areas of Shadowfell have some traits of RL is extremely cool, but please do keep the classic RL world too (i.e. the RL core and the classic domains). 

Sunderheart is high fantasy for a RL domain, which isn’t usually my cup of tea as I prefer classic gothic horrors, but still it’s well made and fun. Anyway, to retrofit it in a classic RL setting without the fiends and other fantasy creatures is relatively easy. There are hags in it, which is fun. 

I blinked a few times in surprise when I saw the darklord’s high number of hit points (840!), but I’m not (at all) knowledgeable in 4e so I can’t comment on the mechanics. 

There are cool hereditary curses ideas for people whose ancestors lived in the city before it was cursed and Lady Ivania was moved to Sunderheart as a domain of dread. 

Of course the « Like other domains of dread, the PCs’ primary goal once there is escape » is a disappointment for RL long time fans, but we can live with it. The fact that getting out doesn’t necessarily involve killing the darklord is a good point. FYI, Ravenloft has proven it can be used as a campaign setting with Ravenloft natives. 

Good start! 

Joël


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