# GAME OF THRONES #7:-You Win or You Die  ACT 7 Chapter 1-2011



## Truth Seeker (May 30, 2011)

*You Win or You Die *

Ned and Cersei have a meeting about Jon Arryn's death. Jon Snow takes his vows to become a man of the Night's Watch. Khal Drogo has an abrupt change of mind after an assassination attempt on Dany. King Robert is severely injured by a boar and must make decisions on the future of his kingdom.​


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## Remus Lupin (May 30, 2011)

A lot of good stuff happened in this episode, but honestly, was the gratuitous and explicit sex scene near the beginning absolutely necessary? Not saying I didn't find it titillating in its way, but it was a pretty raunchy way to give Littlefinger a chance to reveal his nefarious plans to (and perhaps also introduce us to Shae?).


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## Remus Lupin (May 30, 2011)

A further thought, during Khal Drogo's speech about how he was going to conquor Westeros, when he started reciting all of the horrible things he would do: "I will kill their metal men! I will tear down their stone houses! etc." When he got to "I will rape their women," my wife, channelling Dany said, "Uh, honey. That's fine, you might want to stop now. No really, that's very sweet and all, but ..."


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## jonesy (May 30, 2011)

Remus Lupin said:


> A lot of good stuff happened in this episode, but honestly, was the gratuitous and explicit sex scene near the beginning absolutely necessary? Not saying I didn't find it titillating in its way, but it was a pretty raunchy way to give Littlefinger a chance to reveal his nefarious plans to (and perhaps also introduce us to Shae?).



That might have been about Ros, and not Shae or Littlefinger. If so, it's a bit more clever than it appears on the surface. Because of that, and what Littlefinger actually said, it might also be a book spoiler.



Spoiler



Ros as the all-knowing sword against the Meereenese Knot, and Littlefinger saving himself for 'another'?


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## Kzach (May 30, 2011)

I only have one thing to say: what an utter bastard!


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## Pseudonym (May 30, 2011)

A few random thoughts:

I kept waiting for the Gold Cloaks to be shown wearing gold cloaks.

The scene with Ned and Cersei in the godswood was different from the book in ways that while not quite changing her character or motivation, fails to really elaborate upon it. Shame.

Not a bad episode, as it moved the plot along, but not quite as strong as some of the others.


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## Pseudonym (May 30, 2011)

Remus Lupin said:


> (and perhaps also introduce us to Shae?).




Unless they are really deviating from the books, Shae would not be in Kings Landing yet.


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## jonesy (May 30, 2011)

So far all of the added scenes have felt more like behind the scenes footage than deviations. I hope they'll stay like that.


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## Remus Lupin (May 30, 2011)

Well, there are lots of reasons why it SHOULDN'T be Shae, unless Martin always intended her to be Littlefinger's catspaw (though I don't think so), but she physically matches the description in the book, and the way Littlefinger says "whatever your name is ..." made me think that they weren't saying her name deliberately at this point.


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## Remus Lupin (May 30, 2011)

And is Ros really a necessary addition to the character roster? Did the writers think Martin somehow didn't have _enough_ prostitutes in these novels already?


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## LightPhoenix (May 31, 2011)

The redhead was the prostitute from Winterfell Theon was obsessed with... I forget her name though.  How apt.    Littlefinger explicitly calls it out though, when he's admonishing her ("Is that how you do it in the North?")

Very minor book spoiler: 



Spoiler



In the books she stayed in Winterfell.



As for the necessity of the scene, and others expository things...

Littlefinger seems to be set up as the vehicle for exposition in the series.  More specifically, he seems to pick up a lot of the slack from scenes left out or in internal monologues or description.  Case in point: in the book, the Hound's back story comes from the Hound*, not from Littlefinger.

That said, I found the scene completely extraneous and, perhaps more damning, lessening the shock of Littlefinger's betrayal.  It didn't need to be in the episode at all.

Otherwise a solid episode overall.  One point that _should_ have been made in the episode is that Arya and Sansa are still in King's Landing.

* Though this scene _should_ have been in the show; it's a pretty important scene for establishing future story lines.


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## Kzach (May 31, 2011)

LightPhoenix said:


> That said, I found the scene completely extraneous and, perhaps more damning, lessening the shock of Littlefinger's betrayal.  It didn't need to be in the episode at all.




Although I'm betraying my sense of duty to preserve and promote any naked scenes with two women pleasing each other, I am forced to agree that the show would've been better served by any of a dozen other possible scenes.


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## jonesy (May 31, 2011)

LightPhoenix said:


> Very minor book spoiler: In the books she stayed in Winterfell.



That's not a book spoiler. She hasn't appeared in the books. Ros is a character specifically created for the show.

That and the amount of time that she has been on screen are the reasons why I think she must be a book spoiler for things that have not yet happened.

As such:


Spoiler



Martin needs a way to connect all threads heading towards Meereen. One solution is to have a character who knows what is going on between those threads. Ros knows Theon, Ros knows Littlefinger, Ros will know Tyrion through Shae, Ros would know of Arya and Jon..


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## Remus Lupin (May 31, 2011)

Actually, Ros knows Tyrion directly in the TV show, as it was his very generous tip to her while he was at Winterfell that financed her trip to King's Landing. She also knows Jon directly, since he failed to lose his virginity to her.


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## Krug (May 31, 2011)

Good ep, though the scene with Littlefinger and Ros seemed to go on forever. I guess they put it in to give the episode a kind of self-contained quality, though I don't think anyone watching it without the previous eps would know what the heck was going on.

Anyway episode 8 preview - The Pointy End: 
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q653MMhri3A]YouTube - ‪Game of Thrones Episode 8 Preview - The Pointy End‬‏[/ame]


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## LightPhoenix (May 31, 2011)

jonesy said:


> That's not a book spoiler. She hasn't appeared in the books. Ros is a character specifically created for the show.




My bad; I didn't realize.  She looks a lot like the prostitute from Winterfell, so I assumed it was her, especially with the line about the North.


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## jonesy (May 31, 2011)

Krug said:


> Anyway episode 8 preview - The Pointy End:
> YouTube - Game of Thrones Episode 8 Preview - The Pointy End



Winter is about to hit the fan.


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## Remus Lupin (May 31, 2011)

LightPhoenix said:


> My bad; I didn't realize.  She looks a lot like the prostitute from Winterfell, so I assumed it was her, especially with the line about the North.




Oh, the character IS the prostitute from Winterfell (and she must have taken the Redeye from Whiteharbor to get to King's Landing so quickly!), but the prostitute from Winterfell isn't a character in the novels.


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## Joker (May 31, 2011)

Oh man, those poor guardsmen from House Stark aren't getting any breaks.  Their kill to death ratio is terrible.  Bunch of redshirts.

I love Ned's expression at the end.  He was about to lay down the law when Little Finger betrayed him and he had this look on his face like "Oh you bitch".


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## apoptosis (May 31, 2011)

While I thought Littlefinger's exposition went on a bit long, i did not find the sex scene as gratuitous but a  pretty well done metaphor (am gay so two women together is not very titillating to me)

He tells the whores that their client knows that they are a whore and are paying for them; it is their job is to make their client forget about that. That they become whatever their client wants and in doing so the client forgets that they are with a whore.

That is what Littlefinger is. He knows that no one trusts him but he still manages to make people forget that and to (usually their detriment and his benefit) trust him.


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## Remus Lupin (May 31, 2011)

I'm not arguing that the metaphor wasn't apt, simply that it was unnecessary, and franky took away a lot of Littlefinger's mystery. It would have been much better to let Littlefinger betray Ned, and then only some time later this season or early next season, give him a little speech like that explaining his motivation.

And, I had to watch the whole scene with my hand over the remote control, lest my wife come in and give me a hard time about all of the action going on on the screen. She already only watches the show grudgingly (though I did point out the equal opportunity male nudity later on in the episode, but it somehow failed to molify her).


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## apoptosis (May 31, 2011)

I understand your complaint.

For me, I guess it didnt take away much of Littlefinger's mystery  (I read the books so that would be hard to do). 

In my mind, what it did was characterize Littlefinger with a less direct metaphor versus straight and simple exposition. In my view, it did not really talk to his motivation for the why he betrayed Ned but painted a picture of how his mind works.

Additionally, I don't have the wife issue so less complications for me to deal with.


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## TarionzCousin (Jun 1, 2011)

I found Littlefinger's "Explanation Scene with Whores" to be a nice summary of his intentions. He needs to have a scene like this in every episode--although they should use different women and occasionally throw in a third. 

Good TV.


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## Kzach (Jun 1, 2011)

TarionzCousin said:


> Good TV.



I think you need to be introduced to this thing called "The Internet".


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## Starman (Jun 1, 2011)

Kzach said:


> I think you need to be introduced to this thing called "The Internet".




But the acting isn't as good in _those_ shows.


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## Taelorn76 (Jun 1, 2011)

I am totally blank on the character Ros, who was she again?


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## jonesy (Jun 1, 2011)

Taelorn76 said:


> I am totally blank on the character Ros, who was she again?



The red head prostitute. Only on tv.


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## Kzach (Jun 1, 2011)

Starman said:


> But the acting isn't as good in _those_ shows.




You watch them for the plot?


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## Taelorn76 (Jun 1, 2011)

That is why I could not remember her from the boos


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## Taelorn76 (Jun 1, 2011)

Looking on IMDB Shea is listed as appearing in 2 episodes. She is the last entry in the all characters list.


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## catsclaw227 (Jun 2, 2011)

If I'm not mistaken, in a series like this, the cast list will expand as more episodes are run.  I recall in earlier listings it showed Ned Stark in only 6 episodes, since that was all that was released in the beginning to the reviewers.

I could be wrong, though, but I am pretty sure I have seen this for other shows as well.


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## jonesy (Jun 2, 2011)

You're right, and IMDB listings especially lag behind currently running series.


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## Raunalyn (Jun 3, 2011)

I don't think the 2nd prostitute is Shae; to me, it just doesn't fit. While Littlefinger is a manipulative little scum, I just don't see him being THAT manipulative.

I agree with Remus on the scene with the prostitutes. I'm rereading the books right now in anticipation of Dance with Dragons. Littlefinger doesn't really start revealing what he's up to until much later in the series (when he and Sansa escape to the Fingers).

Jason Momoa as Kahl Drogo was excellent in this episode. Before, he was always silent and kind of brooding, but here, he did a fantastic job of letting us know just how pissed off he was.

I was quite pleased at the final scene of the episode...it played out EXACTLY how I envisioned it from the books. Well done on the part of the writers with that scene.


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## jonesy (Jun 3, 2011)

Raunalyn said:


> I don't think the 2nd prostitute is Shae...



Well, it is. George mentioned the actress as Shae during the castings, and now IMDB lists her as Shae.


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## Remus Lupin (Jun 3, 2011)

Huh. How about that. I got one right.


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## Raunalyn (Jun 3, 2011)

jonesy said:


> Well, it is. George mentioned the actress as Shae during the castings, and now IMDB lists her as Shae.




According to several sources, the actress playing the part of the 2nd prostitute in the episode "You Win or you Die" is an english model/actress named Sahara Knite. The link below names her as Armeca.

Sahara Knite - Winter Is Coming

According to IMDB, the actress playing Shae is Sibel Kekilli, and she doesn't appear until the episode named Fire and Blood.


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## Remus Lupin (Jun 3, 2011)

Well, in that case I stand corrected! That's what I get for believing what I read on the internet!


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## catsclaw227 (Jun 3, 2011)

Raunalyn said:


> According to IMDB, the actress playing Shae is Sibel Kekilli, and she doesn't appear until the episode named Fire and Blood.



Isn't that the last episode of the season?

I know they green-lighted the second season like right after the first episode, but does anyone know how well the series has been received and whether we'll see a 3rd or 4th season?


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## Remus Lupin (Jun 3, 2011)

I don't think they're planning that far ahead. Season two is good enough for me at this point!


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## Starman (Jun 4, 2011)

Kzach said:


> You watch them for the plot?




What else would one watch them for?


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## Kzach (Jun 4, 2011)

Starman said:


> What else would one watch them for?




I don't think we're talking about what you think we're talking about...


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## TarionzCousin (Jun 4, 2011)

The main problem I have with this entire series is knowing that there is no end in place. All of the major plot issues will not be resolved unless this series lasts many more years.

I hope that happens, but expensive sci-fi/fantasy TV series have a disturbing tendency to end wayyyyyyyyyyyyy too soon.


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## Starman (Jun 4, 2011)

Kzach said:


> I don't think we're talking about what you think we're talking about...




Or it could be that your (or my) sarcasm detector needs to be recalibrated.


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## Truth Seeker (Jun 4, 2011)

As it stands now, the ratings have been quiet favorable. And there has been some spikes (higher viewer watching) on certain eps in the last several weeks.

Haven't seen anything of true negative outcry on the show currently (if someone has, link it please), but it can be said that HBO is quiet pleased as punch on the ratings (more ad revenue for them) and extra licenses fees for overseas *which was discussed in a old thread dealing with GOT*.

Now, as for a Season 3 or 4, that will depend on the numbers *viewership interest* and staying power *keeping the interest ongoing*.

If Season 2 is as successful or more than Season 1...then most definitely, there will be a Season 3.

As long the interest to watch the show is maintained or it grows in a broader stinct.


catsclaw227 said:


> Isn't that the last episode of the season?
> 
> I know they green-lighted the second season like right after the first episode, but does anyone know how well the series has been received and whether we'll see a 3rd or 4th season?


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## Truth Seeker (Jun 4, 2011)

Yes, that is true...but given HBO's track record in dealing with good shows that have a short lifespan window (e.g. --Rpme & Deadwood)

If we get 3 seasons out of it, it will be more than what Rome & Deadwood ever got.




TarionzCousin said:


> The main problem I have with this entire series is knowing that there is no end in place. All of the major plot issues will not be resolved unless this series lasts many more years.
> 
> I hope that happens, but expensive sci-fi/fantasy TV series have a disturbing tendency to end wayyyyyyyyyyyyy too soon.


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## Kzach (Jun 4, 2011)

TarionzCousin said:


> The main problem I have with this entire series is knowing that there is no end in place. All of the major plot issues will not be resolved unless this series lasts many more years.




I've never quite understood why people take this position. To me, wrapping up every thread is actually unbelievable. Life doesn't stop because a book ends, so why should I see an end to a representation of life from a book? Unresolved issues, unanswered questions, and the knowledge that a character's life continues beyond the capacity for the book to detail or the reader to comprehend is far more believable than every thread being neatly tied off just because the author demands it.

Given GRRM's slavish devotion to the natural flow and ebb of the story and its characters, I think I'd actually be disappointed if he DIDN'T leave us all wondering what the fate of Westeros was.



Truth Seeker said:


> As long the interest to watch the show is maintained or it grows in a broader stinct.



Don't they run seasons on cable networks a second time before the next season begins? I remember reading that they tend to place great value on these second runs because the first run generates interest and the second is what they use to determine the series' potential.

Regardless, buy the DVD! Ooh... I wonder if they'll do a BR version.


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## Celtavian (Jun 4, 2011)

*re*

I liked this episode.

Khal Drogo going off was cool. Daenerys looked like she was ready to be bedded right there and then. 

I liked Littlefinger explaining how he works. His is one of the story arcs I'm most looking forward to in the books. I figure Martin will give him some kind of comeuppance, but I'm hoping he survives the entire ordeal and comes out strong. I love how he plays the game. He has killed some of the people I hate the most in those books.

Poor, foolish Ned. You hate to see it because he is such a good and honorable man. But he was such a fool.

Don't know  how much I like the actor playing Tywin. Doesn't quite look as I pictured Tywin. If Max Von Sydow were 10 or 15 years younger, he would have made an awesome Tywin. Max Von Sydow has a huge screen presence and always seemed kingly and powerful. But we'll see how the actor does Tywin. He wasn't given much to do initially. He won't be real prominent until next season.


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## Celtavian (Jun 4, 2011)

Truth Seeker said:


> As it stands now, the ratings have been quiet favorable. And there has been some spikes (higher viewer watching) on certain eps in the last several weeks.
> 
> Haven't seen anything of true negative outcry on the show currently (if someone has, link it please), but it can be said that HBO is quiet pleased as punch on the ratings (more ad revenue for them) and extra licenses fees for overseas *which was discussed in a old thread dealing with GOT*.
> 
> ...




Season 2 might get too expensive. The big battles in the book will be hard to do on a reasonable budget. _Rome_ was canceled because it became too expensive to keep going. Might be the same fate for _Game of Thrones_. It's not like _The Sopranos_ or _The Wire_. Costs a great deal of money for the sets and CGI. 

Nice thing about this series though is there are so many characters that they don't have to give one too much screen time. So maybe they can save money by not having one major star to carry the series. By the end of _The Sopranos_, James Gandolfini was taking up most of the budget.


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## catsclaw227 (Jun 4, 2011)

Celtavian said:


> _Rome_ was canceled because it became too expensive to keep going.



Wait a sec... I am sure I read in many places that Rome was planned as a two season arc.  The creators and writers had it all sketched out and tied up when it was pitched.  _[I need to go looking for some quotes somewhere...]_



Celtavian said:


> Nice thing about this series though is there are so many characters that they don't have to give one too much screen time. So maybe they can save money by not having one major star to carry the series. By the end of _The Sopranos_, James Gandolfini was taking up most of the budget.



This is a nice point. Actors can cost a lot when they get some power over a show.   Tony Soprano was a huge figure by the 4th or 5th season.  It has it's consequences, though.  Unfortunately for him, Gandolfini hasn't done as much with is fame as I expected and he always reminds me of Tony Soprano whenever I see him.


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## Steel_Wind (Jun 4, 2011)

Kzach said:


> Regardless, buy the DVD! Ooh... I wonder if they'll do a BR version.




FWIW, the show runners have mentioned in interviews (in a very offhand and unspecific manner) about things that they might like to do "for the Blu-Ray".

No overt promises made, but a Blu-Ray for each season is a certainty for the current market -- if for no other reason than Blu-Rays are more profitable than DVDs in this market.  

And yes, given the nature of the fandom of ASoIaF, I expect that DVD/Blu-Ray sales of _Game of Thrones_ will break sales records at HBO. 

In short, I am very bullish on Season 3+ of GoT!


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## TarionzCousin (Jun 4, 2011)

Kzach said:


> I've never quite understood why people take this position. To me, wrapping up every thread is actually unbelievable. Life doesn't stop because a book ends, so why should I see an end to a representation of life from a book? Unresolved issues, unanswered questions, and the knowledge that a character's life continues beyond the capacity for the book to detail or the reader to comprehend is far more believable than every thread being neatly tied off just because the author demands it.
> 
> Given GRRM's slavish devotion to the natural flow and ebb of the story and its characters, I think I'd actually be disappointed if he DIDN'T leave us all wondering what the fate of Westeros was.



I don't expect GRRM to wrap up every thread. But to wrap up the main threads isn't an unreasonable expectation.

I like my stories to have resolution, not just beginnings and middles with no ends.


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## Kzach (Jun 4, 2011)

Celtavian said:


> Don't know  how much I like the actor playing Tywin. Doesn't quite look as I pictured Tywin. If Max Von Sydow were 10 or 15 years younger, he would have made an awesome Tywin. Max Von Sydow has a huge screen presence and always seemed kingly and powerful. But we'll see how the actor does Tywin. He wasn't given much to do initially. He won't be real prominent until next season.




Oh I really liked him as Tywin. I especially liked the scene with him skinning and gutting the deer. Such would normally be the job of a servant (a huntsman), as few nobles would be willing to get their hands bloody, and even fewer would actually know how to properly 'break' a deer. The ritual of unbreaking a deer after a hunt was symbolic of a lord's power and prestige and usually the lord was a 'supervisor' in the affair. But not Lord Twyin. Twyin isn't afraid to get in there and get blood on his hands. He's not about to let some lackey take the honour of such an important task. He's a doer, not a talker. He's a leader, a warrior, a tactician, and he wants everyone to know it.


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## Taelorn76 (Jun 5, 2011)

Kzach said:


> Oh I really liked him as Tywin. I especially liked the scene with him skinning and gutting the deer. Such would normally be the job of a servant (a huntsman), as few nobles would be willing to get their hands bloody, and even fewer would actually know how to properly 'break' a deer. The ritual of unbreaking a deer after a hunt was symbolic of a lord's power and prestige and usually the lord was a 'supervisor' in the affair. But not Lord Twyin. Twyin isn't afraid to get in there and get blood on his hands. He's not about to let some lackey take the honour of such an important task. He's a doer, not a talker. He's a leader, a warrior, a tactician, and he wants everyone to know it.




I think that you are correct on this. This scene gives you a hint of what Tywin is made of. He is a man of action, not one to let others do things for him, not afraid to get his HAND dirty.


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## Celtavian (Jun 5, 2011)

It was a good scene with Tywin. Fitting for his character.

I pictured him differently. He was one of the characters I liked. When Tywin was spoken of in the books before we met him, the story they told was of how they came into the throne room and thought the king was sitting on throne but found instead it was the King's Hand Tywin Lannister. 

Maybe the guy will grow on me like the actor playing Littlefinger and Robert.


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## Kzach (Jun 5, 2011)

One thing I love about Tywin (the character, will have to wait and see about the actor, although I'm confident he'll be able to pull it off... also, Sydow is almost exactly how I pictured Twyin from the books) is that he is an amalgamation of all his children. He is a skilled warrior, even at his current age and he's bold and confident like Jaime. He commands respect and obedience and has the air and attitude of royalty, like Cersei. And he is cunning and knowledgeable and able to survive through his wits and play the game to his advantage, like Tyrion.

Having said that, I'm absolutely DYING to see the scene with him on the toilet...


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## Remus Lupin (Jun 5, 2011)

He will be too.


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## Raunalyn (Jun 6, 2011)

As I was reading the books, I always imagined Ed Harris as Tywin. Blond, cold blue eyes, balding, kind of handsome in a rugged way. Not sure how well he would do with a british accent, though.

I also envisioned Patrick Stewart as Syrio. He's bald (Syrio is in the books as well), and is a pretty good fencer. But, then again, I also thought that Patrick Stewart would make an excellent Stannis.

My fear of this series is that the second season will lose viewership due to the events at the end of Season 1. For those of you familiar with the books, you all know what's coming.


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## GMforPowergamers (Jun 6, 2011)

Raunalyn said:


> My fear of this series is that the second season will lose viewership due to the events at the end of Season 1. For those of you familiar with the books, you all know what's coming.



 I have not read the books but little finger turning on Ned already has me upset... He and ros better be the ones to help Ned escape ( although they are setting it up to be the spider who does)

I just hope none of the Starks die.... Especially arya... I want her to show her father that woman can kick butt too


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## catsclaw227 (Jun 6, 2011)

GMforPowergamers said:


> I have not read the books but little finger turning on Ned already has me upset... He and ros better be the ones to help Ned escape ( although they are setting it up to be the spider who does)
> 
> I just hope none of the Starks die.... Especially arya... I want her to show her father that woman can kick butt too



The final two episodes of the season will be important for you.


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