# Trying to add a review



## Skade (Mar 25, 2003)

Hi there.  I just attempted to add a review for the Emerald Sage, and was unable to do so.  It seems that neither company involved is on the drop down menu of publishers.


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## Blacksway (Mar 26, 2003)

You Tell Big Porkies! Its there twice (as is your review!)


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## Krug (Mar 26, 2003)

however, it's an e-zine... should it be listed in reviews?


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## HellHound (Mar 26, 2003)

After several requests to add Realms of Evil Games "Stygian" to the review database, it was stated that e-zines and even print magazines would NOT be added to the database.


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## Horacio (Mar 26, 2003)

It is a free product made jointly by two d20 publishers. The "e-zine" denomination only means that we want to release several issues. 

It is a free product, that will have "sons", a bit like Portable Hole Full of Beer and now its "issue 2", Portable Hole Full of Beer II. If the word e-zine is the problem, we will drop it. Because I hope the problem is not that it's free...


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## Psion (Mar 26, 2003)

HellHound said:
			
		

> *After several requests to add Realms of Evil Games "Stygian" to the review database, it was stated that e-zines and even print magazines would NOT be added to the database. *




That's a good point. I would say allow both or neither.

I'll present this point before the proper authorities...


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## Psion (Mar 26, 2003)

> * It is a free product, that will have "sons", a bit like Portable Hole Full of Beer and now its "issue 2", Portable Hole Full of Beer II.*




True, but by the same token, the RoE folks could put out there e-zine as a number of like-named modules, like Stygian: Blight in the Wilderness or Stygian: Pig in the City. (or whatever)


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## Skade (Mar 26, 2003)

Blacksway said:
			
		

> *You Tell Big Porkies! Its there twice (as is your review!) *




Yeah, I posted this before I was informed that the issues had been approved for reviews.  I should have deleted this when I did that.  Sorry.


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## Horacio (Mar 26, 2003)

Psion said:
			
		

> *
> 
> True, but by the same token, the RoE folks could put out there e-zine as a number of like-named modules, like Stygian: Blight in the Wilderness or Stygian: Pig in the City. (or whatever) *




Yup, they can do it. I don't see why not.

Again, what is the difference with Portable Hole and Son of Portable Hole? 

(BTW, Hound, sorry to pick Portable Hole as example. Take it as a praise, it is a product so good that nobody would think of putting it outside the reviews list...)


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## Psion (Mar 26, 2003)

Horacio said:
			
		

> *Yup, they can do it. I don't see why not.
> 
> Again, what is the difference with Portable Hole and Son of Portable Hole?
> *




Well, PHFOB has content more like a product vice periodical for one. It does not have much in the way of interviews, company news, or product reviews.


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## HellHound (Mar 26, 2003)

Horacio said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Yup, they can do it. I don't see why not.
> 
> ...




To end up saying exactly what was said by Alan, there is a difference between a periodical and a series of products. We do not include reviews except in jest, we don't include interviews, and all the items in a product are thematically linked. Since both Stygian and The Emerald Sage accept material that is NOT thematically linked to the core of the issue (at least according to your submission guidelines that were posted publically, you accept that up to a certain percentage of an issue will be theme-neutral).

If it is an issue, I think that Portable Hole should be removed from the database instead of making an exception for one periodical while others such as the Stygian and Dragon and Dungeon are not allowed. 

Heck, JUST to prove the point, I will make Son of a Portable Hole into exactly what I said it isn't, I will include product reviews in this one. 

Feh, who cares if it is the top-rated PDF product, IMO opinion that value is also flawed since people almost NEVER review free products accurately, granting much higher numbers to them than they would to an actual pay product.

Anyways, Portable Hole Full of Beer (this product contains no alcohol) will no longer be available as of this Monday.

As an aside, I have nothing against the Emerald Sage, I just feel it is too late to suddenly allow periodicals into the database when it has been stated that they will not be allowed when this request has come up before and when it perhaps may have helped other products' visibility by having reviews posted of it.


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## Skade (Mar 26, 2003)

I have to agree that this is a periodical.  I wasn't aware that there were *no* reviews of periodicals, and in fact I had never written a review before.  I have thought about doing reviews at avrious times, but had not.  In this case my decision to post a review was simply that I was excited about the product, and was going to discuss it on the Hive.  This eventually became a running review of tje magazine, on Horade's and Emerald Nights boards, and then I posted it here for anyone who wanted to see it.  Since I had already pretty much written a review I decided to just post it officially.  

So, end result being, this periodical has been added to the review database.  I don't see why they were not in the first place, personally.  IGN.com has reviewed magazines, and monthly comics before, so there is some precedent for periodical reviews.  That is obviously a very different site, and they have moved away from almost all non-game review now.  In any case, if more periodicals are to be added to the reviews database, I will gladly review them.  

As to whether a product gains high marks because it is free, I can't really argue that as I am not other reviewers, and I have only done one review so far.  Personally, I think it does play some small part, but that is to be expected since the first part of every review seems to be its pagecount and layout vs. cost.

edit:  fixed an omission of a word.


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## Ghostwind (Mar 26, 2003)

HellHound said:
			
		

> *Feh, who cares if it is the top-rated PDF product, IMO opinion that value is also flawed since people almost NEVER review free products accurately, granting much higher numbers to them than they would to an actual pay product.*




People review free products?? Wow, there's a conceptual stretch...


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## Psion (Mar 27, 2003)

Pending a thumbs up from Morrus, I am removing the products from the database. IGN is not ENWorld, and I agree that opening the doors for reviews for periodicals is not a place we need to go. Free products, which we allow reviews for here, are even questionable; what is the point of providing reviews of products that don't cost you anything?

If anyone has a problem with this, please feel free to email me.


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## Morrus (Mar 27, 2003)

I'm going to come down on the side of disallowing all free products and periodicals.

My reasoning is this:

1) I'm not really interested in maintaining a database of 300+ now-unavailable magazine issues.  The messageboards serve those "it matters right now but won't in a few weeks' time" type reviews much better.  

2) I can see no real reason to review free products; the only people who benefit are the creators of the product.  When there's no outlay or risk on the part of the "customer", they may as well just download the thing for free and decide for themselves.

3) I guess I just don't want to....

For what it's worth, I see e-zines as being more relevant to reason #2 than reason #1.  Asgard was never in the database, and neither are other e-zines.  Dragon and Dungeon are not in the database. And, very soon, Portable Hole and its successor will not be in the database.

If anyone spots any free items in the database, please feel free to point them out and I'll remove them. 

Thanks, folks.


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## Ghostwind (Mar 27, 2003)

Morrus-
For Bastion Press, there is Norse Gods, Ink and Quill, and Waters of Akaya; all free products.


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## Horacio (Mar 27, 2003)

I feel guilty now. I hope it hasn't be my complains that have make it happen. I don't like the decision, even if I can see its logic. 

Another thing, after re-reading my posts in the thread, I think it can seem that I was attacking Hellhound or his products. It wasn't the case. Hound has been the person who has helped us the most in every moment of Horade's creation, he has always been friendly and helpful, always finding time to give good advise and always willing to help at any moment. He is really a great guy. And Portable Hole Full of Beer is a wonderful product, and Son of a Portable Hole will be at least as good (and in fact, I will have some items on it, so I wouldn't attack it, would I? ). 

I'm sorry if it seemed that I was attacking him, what I really DON'T like is the "no free products" rule... but that's me. And don't bother explaining me once more the logic, I see it, simply I don't like it, my problem, I guess...


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## Psion (Mar 27, 2003)

The jury is still out, Horacio. We are discussing some alternatives that will still give people access to a free products database. The consensus does seem to be, though, that they aren't worth reviewing.


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## Ghostwind (Mar 27, 2003)

Free products and reviews are a catch-22. Reviewers tend to not want to do them since they often have other "more important" products on their plate. On the other hand, there are some really good free products out there. Portable Hole won an Ennie for best free product and Norse Gods received an honorable mention in the nominations.  Inner Circle Games has a free adventure called "Where Madness Dwells" that's also pretty good.

Perhaps a separate database could be set up that would allow free products and zines to be added and rated/reviewed. That would still allow gamers access to not only knowing what products are available but also whether they are worth the time it may take to download.


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## JacktheRabbit (Mar 27, 2003)

Does this mean all Creative Mountain stuff is out too? Those are free products but I believe they are base products that will be built upon by further products you can purchase.


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## Dragongirl (Mar 27, 2003)

I think removing all free products from the normal database is the best way to go, including Creative Mountain.  It avoids any problems of saying what free product is worthy of being in the database and what is not.  If you do set up a separate database for freebies that would be cool too.


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## Krug (Mar 27, 2003)

I dunno.. There are some GREAT free products out there that are way better than a lot of stuff one has to pay for. I think if there are people who bother reading the reviews, then it's worth reviewing. Some of us do want to know before we spend time downloading or registering for a product.

As for E-zines; they should be left out. I think Joshlemak is compiling a list of ezines and perhaps a link to access them would be sufficient. Emerald Sage is definitely an e-zine. I think retitling your zine just so you can get into the EN World database just shows how highly you think of your own material. If it's good, people will read it.


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## Dragongirl (Mar 28, 2003)

Really didn't want to get in this but.

What exactly makes something an ezine and something else a free product?  Not trying to be arguementative, just curious what the exact differences are.


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## Morrus (Mar 28, 2003)

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *Really didn't want to get in this but.
> 
> What exactly makes something an ezine and something else a free product?  Not trying to be arguementative, just curious what the exact differences are. *




Same as the difference between a magazine and a book, really.

One is a cohesive whole, the other is a collection of articles, reviews and so forth.


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## HellHound (Mar 28, 2003)

A magazine includes interviews, reviews and related "articles". While magazines try to stick to a theme each issue (usually), they also publish material that is not directly related to the theme at hand (such as reviews, and articles that are not directly linked to the theme). Additionally, the contents of a magazine are broken up by article instead of by chapter. For example, a magazine might have prestige classes in four different articles, whereas a sourcebook will most likely have all (or most) of the prestige classes in a specific chapter.

Those are the determining differences between a product such as the Stygian or Emerald Sage and a product such as Portable Hole Full of Beer (this product contains no alcohol).

All In My Opinion, btw.


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## Mark (Mar 28, 2003)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *Does this mean all Creative Mountain stuff is out too? Those are free products but I believe they are base products that will be built upon by further products you can purchase. *






			
				Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *I think removing all free products from the normal database is the best way to go, including Creative Mountain.  It avoids any problems of saying what free product is worthy of being in the database and what is not.  If you do set up a separate database for freebies that would be cool too.   *




Which CMG products do you see in the database that are free?


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## Dragongirl (Mar 28, 2003)

Mark said:
			
		

> *Which CMG products do you see in the database that are free? *



For my part I said CMG because the other person didn't want them included.     I took a look at the products and saw you were charging token prices so no freebies.


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## Dragongirl (Mar 28, 2003)

Morrus said:
			
		

> *Same as the difference between a magazine and a book, really.
> 
> One is a cohesive whole, the other is a collection of articles, reviews and so forth. *



Fair enough.   

Next question :  Why do periodicals get treated as second class products?  Several people have voiced that they should not be in a database.  If a periodical brings you 40 pages of gaming information, why is that looked lesser upon than a non-periodical product with the same page count?  This is not a critisism of anyone at ENWorld or any of the posters, I am just really trying to understand why people seem to think so little of them.

Edit : And no I am not saying that Stygian or Emerald Press should be in the ENWorld main database, I am quite satisified with that just being for pay products.  

____________________________________
Blame EternalKnight, I had no intention of getting into periodicals before.


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## Mark (Mar 28, 2003)

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *For my part I said CMG because the other person didn't want them included.     I took a look at the products and saw you were charging token prices so no freebies. *




It's one of those carry-overs that is particular to print products that publishers haven't quite yet caught onto yet.  PDFs can be any size (though perhaps technology sets a high limit) and as long as you get what you pay for, there really is no limit on the lower end.  They aren't actually token prices as much as low prices for smaller products.  And, indeed, as DocMoriarty points out, they do serve as building blocks in that, for instance, the Trundlefolk are highlighted in The Whispering Woodwind adventure and so the Lexus - Culture Class Trundlefolk NPC class PDF is included in the zip file with the adventure at no extra charge.  It allows for someone to check out the Culture Class separately, and ahead of time, to determine if they might even like to go on and purchase the adventure.


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## Eternalknight (Mar 28, 2003)

Unfortuneatley, on another messageboard at another time, a similar sort of debate once came up.  

Morrus, Psion, and whoever else counts,  while I understand your point of view, what makes free pdf's different to say, 5-10 page pdfs that people charge (for example) .50c for?  Why (to use the Emerald Sage as an example), does a 40 page pdf become less 'legitimate' than the above example? 

Now, let's take another example.  The Emerald Sage has a bard theme, with almost all of the articles based around it. What if, instead of calling it an 'e-zine', we called it a bard supplement?  Although it would have been free, would this topic have even come up, leading to all free products to be banned?  Would the Emerald Sage: Bard Supplement still have been in the database?

What's done is done I suppose, but I just had to ask these questions.


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## Ghostwind (Mar 28, 2003)

IMO, the simplest solution is to create a separate database that lists free products and ezines with no numeric scoring attached to them. If someone wants to write a review of the product, no score will make them translate the good/bad points in the review itself rather than letting the number do the work.


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## Eternalknight (Mar 28, 2003)

I do agree, free products should have a home somewhere.  For those of us on limited downloads, it is good being able to read something about a product before downloading it.


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## alsih2o (Mar 28, 2003)

Eternalknight said:
			
		

> *
> what makes free pdf's different to say, 5-10 page pdfs that people charge (for example) .50c for?
> *




 i think this kind of pdf is getting short shrift. it is like the early days of t.v. when everyone thought t.v. shows had to be just like radio shows, because that was the way it was always done. or maybe like the people who always tried to build flying machines with moving wings because that is how birds do it.

 technology has taken the leap, electronic "books" are the future (imho) and i think we are going to start seeing more and more of these focused, less expensive books coming out in the near future from more and more companies.

 when you have to print and distribute a book you incur certain costs that make it much more worth your while to reach a minimum page length, with pdf's the publisher is liberated from that restraint(yes, i see print books as having many restraints vs .pdf's) and can release as small and focused a bit as they wish.

 the sooner peolle accept that more and more of their info is going to be coming this way the smoother the transition will be.

 well, that's 2 cents i will never see again...


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## johnsemlak (Mar 28, 2003)

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *Fair enough.
> 
> Why do periodicals get treated as second class products?  Several people have voiced that they should not be in a database.  If a periodical brings you 40 pages of gaming information, why is that looked lesser upon than a non-periodical product with the same page count?  This is not a critisism of anyone at ENWorld or any of the posters, I am just really trying to understand why people seem to think so little of them.
> 
> *





Perhaps its not my place to say this but I'm sure leaving periodicals out of the database is not meant to regulate them as 2nd class, rather, it's simply an organizational issue.  The review database also doesn't allow reviews of Dragon magazine, which is certainly not a second class product.


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## Dragongirl (Mar 28, 2003)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> Perhaps its not my place to say this but I'm sure leaving periodicals out of the database is not meant to regulate them as 2nd class, rather, it's simply an organizational issue.  The review database also doesn't allow reviews of Dragon magazine, which is certainly not a second class product. [/B]



May not be intended that way but that is how it comes out.  I have also heard the arguement about not wanting to put reviews of something that wont be available in a few weeks.  Well, books go out of print, magazines can often be backordered for a long time.  And electronic periodicals can be downloaded forever if the authors wish.


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## Dragongirl (Mar 28, 2003)

Ok hopefully my last post on this topic.  These are my opinions and just opinion.

1) There should be a separate database for paid for and free RPG materials.
2) Periodicals should be allowed in whichever of the above databases they qualify for.  Afterall, what is the reason behind reviews?  To let people know whether a certain product is worth getting or not.  
3) Either both databases get graded reviews or neither one.  If you let only one database get a numerical grade then you ARE telling the people involved in the other database that their products are a second class.

Someone think that free things are not good?  Well if they are not good they will get bad reviews, but if they are good maybe they will get more attention from being allowed to be reviewed.

This reminds me of "some" people wanting WOTC materials to be removed from the ENnies.  Why?  Why shouldn't everyone be able to compete against everyone else?  If a D20 publisher can beat WOTC all the more power to them.  If a free product can get out there and kick butt, more power to them.  Let the individual work speak for itself, don't discriminate just because something is free and/or a periodical.  Anyone that thinks a periodical is a lesser thing obviously has not worked on one.

Face it, there are crappy pay for print, pay for PDF, free PDF and periodicals, but if you don't let them all compete you may miss a gem out there.

And for the record I am not saying all this for any particular publication, it is what I truly feel about the industry as a whole.


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## alsih2o (Mar 28, 2003)

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *Ok hopefully my last post on this topic.  These are my opinions and just opinion.
> 
> 1) There should be a separate database for paid for and free RPG materials.
> 2) Periodicals should be allowed in whichever of the above databases they qualify for.  Afterall, what is the reason behind reviews?  To let people know whether a certain product is worth getting or not.
> ...




 same qualifiers as DG-

 1) who is gonna pay for the space? advertising revenue from paid products pays for a lot of the space here, advertising for free products doesn't
 2) periodicals would flood the review area, everybody with a 1 page rant would want in, drawing a line at periodicals delineates clearly.
 3) when you use all capitals on a form of be it no longer comes across as opinion, but seems that you are pushing a fact. just because something is pointed out as being different doesn't make it second class.


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## Dragongirl (Mar 28, 2003)

alsih2o said:
			
		

> * 1) who is gonna pay for the space? advertising revenue from paid products pays for a lot of the space here, advertising for free products doesn't*



There were already free things in the normal database, who paid for them?  Plus there are some very small products in the normal database that are charged less than a $1 for.  Where do you draw the limit?  Surely these little pamphlets don't pay for ads?



			
				alsih2o said:
			
		

> * 2) periodicals would flood the review area, everybody with a 1 page rant would want in, drawing a line at periodicals delineates clearly.*



Why do periodicals get more rants than any other product?



			
				alsih2o said:
			
		

> *  3) when you use all capitals on a form of be it no longer comes across as opinion, but seems that you are pushing a fact. just because something is pointed out as being different doesn't make it second class. *



Sorry.


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## Horacio (Mar 28, 2003)

alsih2o said:
			
		

> *
> 
> same qualifiers as DG-
> 
> ...




1) Most products in the review database aren't advertised here, so for that rule all non advertising products shold be erased from it...
2) That is really the only point where I think you could have a point 
3) When somebody begin by saying that it is an opinion and saying it twice, you can safely suppose it is an opinion.


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## Ghostwind (Mar 28, 2003)

Just adding a bit more to this discussion. Why not create two separate databases? The first being the previously mentioned free product database while the second is being a periodical database for those you are required to purchase (Dungeon, Dragon, d20Weekly, etc.). 

As far as a rating system goes, there is a problem that isn't being addressed concerning this topic. A periodical represents a collection of various articles. How do you rate a periodical that has several really good articles but a couple of real stinkers? A negative score isn't necessarily accurate but neither would be a good score.

Since there has been a long standing debate on the current scoring system, why not take this opportunity to try an experiment and have these two databases without ratings. The reviews themselves would have to point out the good and the bad. Who knows, it might be a huge success.


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## Dragongirl (Mar 28, 2003)

Ghostwind said:
			
		

> *Since there has been a long standing debate on the current scoring system, why not take this opportunity to try an experiment and have these two databases without ratings. The reviews themselves would have to point out the good and the bad. Who knows, it might be a huge success. *



Bravo!!


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## Morrus (Mar 28, 2003)

OK, everything has pretty much been said.  Repeatedly.  

Those who feel strongly about having somewhere to review free items are more than welcome to set something up themselves.  Frankly, I think a mountain has been made out of a molehill here.

I'm closing this now,


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