# New ad bar



## hafrogman

So, now we've started adding ads inbetween posts in a thread.  I have my CS account, but generally leave the ads on, because the heading and sidebar ones don't actually inconvenience me any, and presumably bring a little extra to the site.

But these new ones are pretty distracting.  Can we get an option to disable them for the CS accounts?


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## Mouseferatu

hafrogman said:


> Can we get an option to disable them for the CS accounts?




Seconded, please.  I support the site, and I plan to continue doing so. I'd really like for that to include the option to turn off _all_ ads, not just the ones that were in place when I paid for the account.


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## Morrus

Yep, they're supposed to be switchable.  I'll check into it in the morning!


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## I'm A Banana

The interstitial ads are double-plus more annoying than the sidebar and top bar ads. They totally futz with the flow of conversation. Not viewing them should absolutely be an option. I mean, I know I'm not a CS (someday!), but still...


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## Arkhandus

.....the new ads are making it almost impossible for me to log in and do anything now.  My Community Supporter account has the regular ads turned off, because they slow the site down for me otherwise, but these new ads aren't being turned off by that same switch.  The new ads are freezing up my Internet Explorer most of the time that I try to log in or load a page after logging in.

Granted, my computer and OS are old, so my IE isn't up to date (can't update it any further with this OS), but this problem shouldn't exist.  Especially when I've got ads turned off on my CS account.  I can't even load my account page now without it freezing up, so I can't look for any new ad checkbox on the account pages to mark off.


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## Relique du Madde

I love this site and all but seriously, those mid thread ads need to go.  To me when ever I see an ad box that's as wide as the content area of a site which doesn't have a "content continued below" warning my mind interprets them as the ad existing at the bottom of the content flow.  As a result, I found myself looking for the next page button or trying to navigate out of the the thread (especially when I was not log on at school today). 

The ads on the content area's bottom, header, and sidebar are alright (though somewhat excessive since their number will only increase as time goes on), but please, before adding a new ad every 5 or 10 displayed posts, think of what it does to user experience of the average ENWorld user.  Thanks.


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## Thanee

Wow! Sponsored Links boxes everywhere... time to upgrade my scripts. At least they are just empty boxes. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Mustrum_Ridcully

Thanee said:


> Wow! Sponsored Links boxes everywhere... time to upgrade my scripts. At least they are just empty boxes.
> 
> Bye
> Thanee



Get a CS account and turn them off for real!
I, for one, welcome our new ad bar overlords. I love ads!



Okay, no I do not. But anything that helps make this site is a good thing. Maybe one day, this will allow the server slowdowns to go away? 

Unless the ads are causing them. Then curse them all and may they all die in a fire.


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## Morrus

I know ads aren't popular, guys, but I don't really have a choice.  I don't know if it's the economy or what, but nobody's buying _anything_ - advertising, CS accounts, EN Publishing PDFs.  The only thing I could think of was to increase the amount of Google ads, otherwise the site would have to go bye-bye.


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## wedgeski

I don't mind them as long as my CS options include turning them off.  I actually leave the head banner ad on for similar reasons to hafrogman, and because the layout just looks a little weird without it.

Morrus I hope if the situation gets *really* dire you'll bring it to the community's attention before ENW is in danger of going *POP*?


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## Maidhc O Casain

Morrus said:


> I know ads aren't popular, guys, but I don't really have a choice.  I don't know if it's the economy or what, but nobody's buying _anything_ - advertising, CS accounts, EN Publishing PDFs.  The only thing I could think of was to increase the amount of Google ads, otherwise the site would have to go bye-bye.




Understood - but those who _did_ buy something bought the option to turn off the ads. Only it seems now like we didn't . . . and the one's we can't turn off are in _far_ more annoying (to me) places than the ones we did ever were!


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## Morrus

Mowgli said:


> Understood - but those who _did_ buy something bought the option to turn off the ads. Only it seems now like we didn't . . . and the one's we can't turn off are in _far_ more annoying (to me) places than the ones we did ever were!




I promise I'll fix that!  Taking longer than I thought it would.


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## Nifft

Morrus said:


> I know ads aren't popular, guys, but I don't really have a choice.  I don't know if it's the economy or what, but nobody's buying _anything_ - advertising, CS accounts, EN Publishing PDFs.  The only thing I could think of was to increase the amount of Google ads, otherwise the site would have to go bye-bye.



 Need donations?
Post a "goal" and a donation link.
Some of us are doing pretty okay, in even this economy.

Cheers, -- N


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## Maidhc O Casain

Morrus said:


> I promise I'll fix that!  Taking longer than I thought it would.




 Apologies for the snarkiness. I was afraid from your other post the mid-thread ads were mandatory. Sorry about that!


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## Morrus

Nifft said:


> Need donations?
> Post a "goal" and a donation link.
> Some of us are doing pretty okay, in even this economy.




Well, that's the problem.  There isn't a goal; there's a need for regular reliable revenue.  Donation drives are just a band-aid.

I've made an "appeal" which consists of pointing out EN World's various revenue streams in the hope that some folks see something they didn't realise was there.


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## Nifft

Morrus said:


> Well, that's the problem.  There isn't a goal; there's a need for regular reliable revenue.  Donation drives are just a band-aid.
> 
> I've made an "appeal" which consists of pointing out EN World's various revenue streams in the hope that some folks see something they didn't realise was there.



 This recession won't last forever. I'll bet it won't be too many more months until people start buying stuff again.

So: even if donations are a band-aid, the lack of revenue ought to "heal" at some point in the future.

Cheers, -- N


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## chriton227

Not to pry too much, but are most of the site expenses bandwidth related?  If so, have you considered optimizing the site to reduce the bandwidth load or making minor changes to reduce the bandwidth usage?  Minor changes can have a big impact on the actual bandwidth used by the site.  

For example, a quick check on a couple pages shows that updating the HREFS and SRC attributes in the HTML to not include the full domain name of the site (href="/forum/archive/index.php/" instead of href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/archive/index.php/") could reduce page size between 5% and 10%. You could also make avatar images a "Community Supporter" thing, which would reduce the bandwidth utilization further (5KB or so for every avatar image not displayed).  Even moving style information from being inline to being in a style class declaration can reduce the page size, especially on elements repeated on every page (I'm looking at you, mouseover/mouseout on the navigation bar images instead of using a CSS :hover)

To be honest, I haven't renewed my CS account because what you get doesn't seem like much for the cost, and while I had my CS account I didn't find a need to use any of the benefits. I have a hard time justifying spending as much on a CS account as it costs me for 6 full months of hosting on my own site. While the price per year is much better if you go for the three year anniversary deal, given the fund drives and recurring performance issues I don't have much faith in the site being here three years from now.


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## Morrus

chriton227 said:


> Not to pry too much, but are most of the site expenses bandwidth related? If so, have you considered optimizing the site to reduce the bandwidth load or making minor changes to reduce the bandwidth usage? Minor changes can have a big impact on the actual bandwidth used by the site.




It's not bandwidth; the server costs are the same every month.  The problem is that things that used to pay for those costs now don't.  EN World made $7.50 this month.  Total.



> To be honest, I haven't renewed my CS account because what you get doesn't seem like much for the cost, and while I had my CS account I didn't find a need to use any of the benefits. I have a hard time justifying spending as much on a CS account as it costs me for 6 full months of hosting on my own site. While the price per year is much better if you go for the three year anniversary deal, given the fund drives and recurring performance issues I don't have much faith in the site being here three years from now.




It's been here 10 years; but your reasoning is a self-fulfillng prphecy.  If folks don't spend money on that basis, it _won't_ be here in 3 years.

I'd ask that you forget the benefits a CS account gives you, and think about the benefits EN World's _existence_ gives you. Now, if you don't think EN World gives you $35 a year's benefit, I can't argue with that - only you know what is worth that to you.  But IF EN World's existence provides you with $35 benefit a year (say, a cheap meal out once a year), I'd ask you to consider the account anyway. 

Only you know what value you get out of the site; I can't tell you that.  You simply need to make decisions on your own valuations.  If it turns out that EN World _isn't_ worth $35 a year to most people, then I guess market forces will have spoken and we'll quietly fade away.  I still hold out hope that the site _is_ worth that to people, though, because I believe there's far more available here than in any given $35 rulebook.


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## Umbran

I could turn the ads off, but I don't.  I figure some ad impressions are a tiny price to pay for the content of the site.


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## pawsplay

Morrus said:


> I know ads aren't popular, guys, but I don't really have a choice.  I don't know if it's the economy or what, but nobody's buying _anything_ - advertising, CS accounts, EN Publishing PDFs.




I blame Evony. I'm not saying it's their fault, just that I blame them.


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## frankthedm

pawsplay said:


> I blame Evony. I'm not saying it's their fault, just that I blame them.



Oh, I definitely blame them. Those adds probably caused a spike in ad-blocker use.


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## pawsplay

frankthedm said:


> Oh, I definitely blame them. Those adds probably caused a spike in ad-blocker use.




Which sort of raises the question, how much revenue do those ads generate? Does the $7.50 include the ads? 

I'm going to speculate that site sloweness has been an issue lately, and if you can't get to ENWorld half the time, well, out of sight, out of mind. There is of course the economy. 

As far as ENWorld PDF sales go... Some people have suggested that 4e's DDI and other features have changed the game, and some of the old publishing strategies may not be ideal for the current product. If it can't be added to the character builder, for instance, it's relatively less useful than WotC supplements. On the Pathfinder front, I think the lull between the Pathfinder rules and the Bestiary has caused a lull, and between Pathfinder and 3PP publishers hitting the ground is another. The lull could conceivably affect both sales and advertising.


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## Mouseferatu

Hey, Morrus? No rush--I realize this isn't your highest priority right now--but I was just wondering if there's an ETA on when supporters might be able to turn these off.


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## Morrus

Mouseferatu said:


> Hey, Morrus? No rush--I realize this isn't your highest priority right now--but I was just wondering if there's an ETA on when supporters might be able to turn these off.




I'm trying!  Basically, I'm  looking at PHP web tutorials and trying to figure it out.

If I can't figure it out in a few days, I'll just switch it off.


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## pawsplay

Morrus said:


> The only thing I could think of was to increase the amount of Google ads, otherwise the site would have to go bye-bye.




I can understand, but seriously, having an Evony ad appear in the middle of a page is not awesome. It's like visiting Yuku. I plan on becoming a supporter real soon, but for the sake of mercy, can we make those go away? Think of the children.


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## weem

pawsplay said:


> I can understand, but seriously, having an Evony ad appear in the middle of a page is not awesome. It's like visiting Yuku. I plan on becoming a supporter real soon, but for the sake of mercy, can we make those go away? Think of the children.




It might not be awesome, but not having ENW here would be... even more not awesome.

I don't like them either, but I don't mind skipping over them in the fraction of a second that takes, knowing that it's one of those few things that can be done to keep things going.

Keep it up Morrus... if you have to add a "Powered by EVONY" to the logo and change the 'world' dice to cleavage in order to keep things going here, lemme know - I'll add it in - whatever it takes.


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## pawsplay

weem said:


> It might not be awesome, but not having ENW here would be... even more not awesome.




But must it be destroyed in order to be saved? Seriously, enworld.yuku.com would probably be cheaper to run.


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## weem

pawsplay said:


> But must it be destroyed in order to be saved? Seriously, enworld.yuku.com would probably be cheaper to run.




Our definitions of destroyed vary I suppose... I think... "tainted" might be more accurate, hehe - I'll take a "tainted" ENW over a "no" ENW... there we go.


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## Theroc

weem said:


> Our definitions of destroyed vary I suppose... I think... "tainted" might be more accurate, hehe - I'll take a "tainted" ENW over a "no" ENW... there we go.




Here here.  I'm pretty sure I'd lose it if Enworld went down.  So much crap going on here at the moment, ENworld is my primary escape.  If Evony being every other pixel will keep it around, I'd likely try to suffer through it.


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## Arkhandus

I'd rather have EN World with more ads than no EN World at all, but I just want to be able to turn off the adds since they freeze or crash my web browser sometimes, and I can't afford a new computer+OS just to get around that.  I was able to afford a Community Supporter account this year, and bought it half for the sake of just turning off the ads that mess up my web browser, but my other reason for buying the CS account was to support EN World.


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## Obryn

Honestly, if you have the option to do so, do yourself a favor and grab Firefox with the AdblockPlus plugin.  It will ask you to "subscribe" to a blacklist; just pick the first one and go.  You will see almost zero ads, including those from ENWorld.  (You can get NoScript, too, but that requires a much higher level of involvement, as opposed to AdblockPlus, which is basically invisible.)

When I didn't have a Community Supporter account, I added an exclusion to AdblockPlus to allow ads on ENWorld because I wanted to support the site at least a little bit.  (I'd click on some ads now and again, too.)  Now that I have a CS account, I have no regrets about turning off the ads I could turn off, and adblocking the rest into oblivion. 

-O


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## Cergorach

Morrus said:


> I'm trying!  Basically, I'm  looking at PHP web tutorials and trying to figure it out.
> 
> If I can't figure it out in a few days, I'll just switch it off.



Haven't been around for a while, but didn't you have a 'webguy' that did that kind of thing?

If you need PHP help, please list what you need help with specifically and I'm sure folks will help out...


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## CapnZapp

frankthedm said:


> Oh, I definitely blame them. Those adds probably caused a spike in ad-blocker use.



On the other hand, all advertisements are irritating, not just some.

The first thing I install when I get to a new computer is Firefox & Adblock Plus. Can't imagine how people can live with all those ads, especially given how easy and carefree it is to remove them for good.


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## Theroc

CapnZapp said:


> On the other hand, all advertisements are irritating, not just some.
> 
> The first thing I install when I get to a new computer is Firefox & Adblock Plus. Can't imagine how people can live with all those ads, especially given how easy and carefree it is to remove them for good.




The ads in the top and bottom of the screen I hardly notice and they don't bother me at all.  The Side ad was somewhat annoying, so during my CSA month I've blocked that but kept the banner ads.  The one midthread is the most annoying, and the one CSA's can't get rid of at the moment, lol.

But honestly, the ads aren't that much of a bother to me, and if using adblocker would be denying Enworld money it needs to function, I'd put up with some minor annoyance to ensure this site stays afloat.  Now, if others find it too annoying, that's their choice.  But for me, it's not annoying enough for me to bother with, for the most part.


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## Obryn

Theroc said:


> But honestly, the ads aren't that much of a bother to me, and if using adblocker would be denying Enworld money it needs to function, I'd put up with some minor annoyance to ensure this site stays afloat.



Agreed.

I think banner ads are obnoxious, but it's not like Morrus is raking in the dough.  Large sites - as opposed to small, low maintenance sites - need some kind of cash flow to stay up, and ads are a pretty convenient way to do that.

Mind you, I'd rather have zero ads, but I think whitelisting the ads on ENWorld was an acceptable price to pay when I wasn't otherwise supporting the site.

-O


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## Morrus

CapnZapp said:


> On the other hand, all advertisements are irritating, not just some.
> 
> The first thing I install when I get to a new computer is Firefox & Adblock Plus. Can't imagine how people can live with all those ads, especially given how easy and carefree it is to remove them for good.




No offence, man, but that's one of the reasons this site is in danger of closing.  You're not a community supporter, and you turn off the ads.  So you're a net disadvantage to EN World.  I'm paying for the privilege of having you here.

You probably think what you do dopesn't make a difference. But if a whole bunch of people all think it doesn't matter, it then matters, and sites close down.  And believe me, EN World is in a make-or-break situation at present.  If it doesn't get 1000 subscribers by Christmas, this site _is_ going to close.


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## Cergorach

Morrus said:


> No offence, man, but that's one of the reasons this site is in danger of closing.  You're not a community supporter, and you turn off the ads.  So you're a net disadvantage to EN World.  I'm paying for the privilege of having you here.
> 
> You probably think what you do dopesn't make a difference. But if a whole bunch of people all think it doesn't matter, it then matters, and sites close down.  And believe me, EN World is in a make-or-break situation at present.  If it doesn't get 1000 subscribers by Christmas, this site _is_ going to close.



The amount of folks that actively use ad blockers is only a small percentage of the internet users. While CapnZapp might not directly generate any income, he might very well indirectly generate income by interacting with users that do generate income.

I generally do not turn off ads, but it got so ridiculous on here that I was actually 'forced' to turn them off due to my ENworld experience going down the drain (ads where messing with my ability to scroll down a page on a quad core pc). If you make ENworld an experience (free) users don't enjoy, the site will die anyway, due to lack of participation.

Heck, I'm subscribed to 2013, so I have a vested interest in seeing the site stay alive ;-)


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## Orius

pawsplay said:


> I blame Evony. I'm not saying it's their fault, just that I blame them.




Not like that's a bad policy.  Evony is kind of like the Internet's cockroach, ubiquitous, adaptable, and universally despised.  

I don't really pay much attention to ads one way or the other.  I've gotten used to them being part of the internet experience.  What I do dislike though are ads with bad scripting that make my browser crash.  That can be even more obnoxious than Evony.


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## pawsplay

Morrus said:


> No offence, man, but that's one of the reasons this site is in danger of closing.  You're not a community supporter, and you turn off the ads.  So you're a net disadvantage to EN World.  I'm paying for the privilege of having you here.
> 
> You probably think what you do dopesn't make a difference. But if a whole bunch of people all think it doesn't matter, it then matters, and sites close down.  And believe me, EN World is in a make-or-break situation at present.  If it doesn't get 1000 subscribers by Christmas, this site _is_ going to close.




So I see we have about 84,200 members. Assuming most of those represent active accounts, going by the 1% rule that about 1% of an exposed audience is going to respond to a pitch aimed at them, that will get you 842 subscriptions. I'm going to guess many of those accounts are not active and you may get about half that many subscriptions. 

Not that you necessarily know the answer to this question, nor are you necessarily going to be inclined to answer on a forum, but what the hey... if that happens, then what? So long, that's it? I think this is a pretty cool site and there are plenty of cool people here. And again, this may not be something you can answer, but it's what I'm wondering and probably what a lot of people are wondering. What are the most expensive aspects of this site? I have a hard time picturing a server, some bandwidth, data backup, and maybe some development stuff costing more than, oh, $1500 a month or so. And I have the sense it could be done on a good deal less than that. But maybe there are angles I haven't considered.


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## Morrus

> Not that you necessarily know the answer to this question, nor are you necessarily going to be inclined to answer on a forum, but what the hey... if that happens, then what? So long, that's it?




Well - if the bills aren't being paid, then yes!  My soon-to-be-wife doesn't want to have to indirectly subsidize the place any more, and I don't want her to have to.  



> What are the most expensive aspects of this site?




Staff.  It needs paid staff.  Including, from Xmas, me, if I'm going to spend another decade of my life on it!


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## pawsplay

Morrus said:


> Well - if the bills aren't being paid, then yes!  My soon-to-be-wife doesn't want to have to indirectly subsidize the place any more, and I don't want her to have to.
> 
> Staff.  It needs paid staff.  Including, from Xmas, me, if I'm going to spend another decade of my life on it!




Fair enough. So what we really need to do now is to figure out how to double the readership of the site by Christmas.


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## Cergorach

> Access Exclusive Conten, Get More PM Space, Use Search Features,
> Use Custom Title/Avatar, *Disable Ads* and More!



I'm still getting a bar in the middle of the thread with some very annoying Evony ads. But I also have two ad banners at the bottom of the page, how do I disable those?


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## stonegod

Cergorach said:


> I'm still getting a bar in the middle of the thread with some very annoying Evony ads. But I also have two ad banners at the bottom of the page, how do I disable those?



Morrus is working on that one, I believe. They were added recently and the code to remove them isn't working (yet (soon, hopefully)).


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## Arkhandus

Orius said:


> Not like that's a bad policy.  Evony is kind of like the Internet's cockroach, ubiquitous, adaptable, and universally despised.
> 
> I don't really pay much attention to ads one way or the other.  I've gotten used to them being part of the internet experience.  What I do dislike though are ads with bad scripting that make my browser crash.  That can be even more obnoxious than Evony.



Same as my opinion.  I don't bother with ad-blockers, but I do have a problem with some ads crashing my browser, as is the case with some (not all) of the GoogleAds that run on EN World lately.  Thus I need to shut off the ads in my Community Supporter account options, otherwise I can't do anything here half the time.


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## Elephant

Morrus said:


> It's not bandwidth; the server costs are the same every month.  The problem is that things that used to pay for those costs now don't.  EN World made $7.50 this month.  Total.




Ouch.  That explains the desperation leading to the obnoxious changes on the site and the newsletter spamming.



> But IF EN World's existence provides you with $35 benefit a year (say, a cheap meal out once a year), I'd ask you to consider the account anyway.




$35 isn't a cheap meal.  Your rulebook comparison is a better one.  The material (e.g. the 3e monster conversions and Wulf's Trailblazer previews) and the community have some value.

OTOH, there are a lot of ways in which this site is run that really bother me.  With those in mind, I find the idea of sending more money to Morrus to be repellent, despite the excellent forums and d20 resources here.


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## Morrus

Well, I can't fix it, so I've turned them off completely.


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## PaulofCthulhu

1% response is a pretty good rule of thumb - that would be pretty close to the 1,000 Morrus needs so it may be quite attainable.

If not then things could get sticky. Depending on the Terms of Use for Community Supporter Accounts, if Morrus decides to shut the site in January 2010 he may/may not have to reimburse those who have paid in advance (up to 2011) as well.

Also depending on events, it may be possible to transfer EN World to a new owner (it's happened before) - but EN World does feel very much Morrus, so it could go the way of www.portent.net . (Let's hope not!)

Running larger scale web sites can be tough and I laud Morrus' wish to make a paid job (as opposed to an unpaid one)!


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## Wulf Ratbane

Elephant said:


> The material (e.g. the 3e monster conversions and Wulf's Trailblazer previews) and the community have some value.
> 
> OTOH, there are a lot of ways in which this site is run that really bother me.  With those in mind, I find the idea of sending more money to Morrus to be repellent, despite the excellent forums and d20 resources here.




Not only would the Trailblazer previews not exist without ENworld, Trailblazer itself would not exist without ENworld. Much of the development arose from discussions right here in this community.

I will be extending my ENworld Community Supporter account because the ENworld community supports *me*.


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## Mathew_Freeman

Morrus said:


> No offence, man, but that's one of the reasons this site is in danger of closing.  You're not a community supporter, and you turn off the ads.  So you're a net disadvantage to EN World.  I'm paying for the privilege of having you here.
> 
> You probably think what you do dopesn't make a difference. But if a whole bunch of people all think it doesn't matter, it then matters, and sites close down.  And believe me, EN World is in a make-or-break situation at present.  If it doesn't get 1000 subscribers by Christmas, this site _is_ going to close.




In response to this, Morrus, I've just put the ads back on for ENWorld despite having ad-blocker installed.


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## Obryn

Elephant said:


> comparison is a better one.  The material (e.g. the 3e monster conversions and Wulf's Trailblazer previews) and the community have some value.
> 
> OTOH, there are a lot of ways in which this site is run that really bother me.  With those in mind, I find the idea of sending more money to Morrus to be repellent, despite the excellent forums and d20 resources here.



Um...  As a veteran of several boards which have closed, let me assure you that the board and the community are tied pretty closely together.  You can't have one without the other.  You might think, "Well, the community can just move to this other site," but it really doesn't work that way.

If you value the community, I'd recommend valuing the site as well.

-O


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## Shemeska

I never turned the ads off.


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## jdrakeh

Elephant said:


> OTOH, there are a lot of ways in which this site is run that really bother me. With those in mind, I find the idea of sending more money to Morrus to be repellent, despite the excellent forums and d20 resources here.




Seriously? If you harbor that much resentment toward Morrus and this site, why do you continue to post here?


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## Maxboy

jdrakeh said:


> Seriously? If you harbor that much resentment toward Morrus and this site, why do you continue to post here?




totally agree  

what we need is a "pay to ban" users


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## RangerWickett

No need to get hostile. The man just expressed his opinion. 

I don't suppose someone could help me out? I don't mind letting EN World ads run (and they show up usually, since most of the time I browse away from home), but at home I have NoScript. Is there a way for me to allow scripted ads for this site (and others I frequent), but not elsewhere?

I like that I lessen the risk of stumbling into a nasty site, but I don't want to deny Russ a bit of aid in his income.


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## Holy Bovine

Shemeska said:


> I never turned the ads off.




Same here - although I liked the ads more when they had less Evony and more gaming stuff (although a few gaming ads have cropped up again).

@Elephant - you really need to leave ENWorld.  Forever.  And don't forget to move your bookmarks too.


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## Obryn

RangerWickett said:


> No need to get hostile. The man just expressed his opinion.



Posting hostility is a no-no.  Here anyway.   And he can certainly post his opinions, and I can feel free to feel however I feel about it.

EDIT: And for the record, I wouldn't take issue if he couldn't support the site, didn't think it was valuable enough to support, or just plain didn't feel like it.  I do have an issue with someone taking the time to say both that they value the information on it, _and_ that they find the idea of paying for that information "repellent."  It's a big difference, IMO, that goes well into the personal.



> I don't suppose someone could help me out? I don't mind letting EN World ads run (and they show up usually, since most of the time I browse away from home), but at home I have NoScript. Is there a way for me to allow scripted ads for this site (and others I frequent), but not elsewhere?



Unlike Adblock, I don't think NoScript works that way.  You're blocking the sites serving the scripts, not the site which calls the site serving the script.  If you unblock googlesyndication.com here, you unblock it everywhere.

-O


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## frankthedm

Obryn said:


> Unlike Adblock, I don't think NoScript works that way.  You're blocking the sites serving the scripts, not the site which calls the site serving the script.  If you unblock googlesyndication.com here, you unblock it everywhere.



Hmm, the _allow all this page _wouldn't work?






img180.imageshack.us/img180/6756/tryr.png


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## CapnZapp

Morrus said:


> No offence, man, but that's one of the reasons this site is in danger of closing.  You're not a community supporter, and you turn off the ads.  So you're a net disadvantage to EN World.  I'm paying for the privilege of having you here.



You seem to have lost all perspective here, Morrus. Is that your way of welcoming visitors?!

If you don't want a lively community, but only paying customers, then make your site a pay site and be done with it. Of course, with 157 members, that will be the death of ENWorld as a focus spot for D&D discussion. (It will not be the death of the discussion though: it will simply move to a more welcoming environment).

Describing your non-paying visitors as "net disadvantages" is incredibly short-sighted. If it weren't for your visitors, you would not have any product to sell: in fact, you would have nothing.

I sincerely hope you can find an advisor on public relations before you decide to scare away your main attraction: the people who regularly visit your site.

Best regards,
Zapp


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## FireLance

CapnZapp said:


> You seem to have lost all perspective here, Morrus. Is that your way of welcoming visitors?!
> 
> If you don't want a lively community, but only paying customers, then make your site a pay site and be done with it. Of course, with 157 members, that will be the death of ENWorld as a focus spot for D&D discussion. (It will not be the death of the discussion though: it will simply move to a more welcoming environment).
> 
> Describing your non-paying visitors as "net disadvantages" is incredibly short-sighted. If it weren't for your visitors, you would not have any product to sell: in fact, you would have nothing.
> 
> I sincerely hope you can find an advisor on public relations before you decide to scare away your main attraction: the people who regularly visit your site.



I think his point is: he gets ad revenue when ads display on your computer. By turning off ads, you are denying him even this small stream of income. By encouraging others to do the same, you are actively hurting his revenue. Does it really inconvenience you that much to let the ads show up on your screen, or at least change your sig?


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## Morrus

CapnZapp said:


> You seem to have lost all perspective here, Morrus. Is that your way of welcoming visitors?!
> 
> If you don't want a lively community, but only paying customers, then make your site a pay site and be done with it. Of course, with 157 members, that will be the death of ENWorld as a focus spot for D&D discussion. (It will not be the death of the discussion though: it will simply move to a more welcoming environment).
> 
> Describing your non-paying visitors as "net disadvantages" is incredibly short-sighted. If it weren't for your visitors, you would not have any product to sell: in fact, you would have nothing.
> 
> I sincerely hope you can find an advisor on public relations before you decide to scare away your main attraction: the people who regularly visit your site.




Personal insults towards those who disagree with you are entirely inappropriate on this website. 

As is encouraging others to block the ads. Please change your signature.



Best regards,
Zapp[/QUOTE]


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## Obryn

CapnZapp said:


> You seem to have lost all perspective here, Morrus. Is that your way of welcoming visitors?!



I dunno...  Is refusing to give back (in even the smallest way) to a community that apparently gives you enjoyment, your way of saying "Thanks for having me"?

It's all well and good to say, "I post here, therefore I contribute everything I need to contribute."  But if everyone took that philosophy, why would anyone help out financially at all?  You're traged-izing the commons.

-O


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## pawsplay

Obryn said:


> It's all well and good to say, "I post here, therefore I contribute everything I need to contribute."  But if everyone took that philosophy, why would anyone help out financially at all?  You're traged-izing the commons.
> 
> -O




And if everyone financially contributed and no one posted, where would we be? Obryn, he was talking specifically about visitors, not committed community members. And we do need visitors. Recent indications suggest we need lots of visitors, to pump up ad revenue and increase our pool of potential supporters.


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## Morrus

Gah! Using my iPhone to post is a nightmare. My last post was directed at two different people, but I messed up the quote tags. So it probably doesn't make much sense.

I'll try to do it properly when I get my PC back.


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## Obryn

pawsplay said:


> And if everyone financially contributed and no one posted, where would we be?



How's that relevant?  Who's saying that's awesome, either?  Just reversing the order of something I post doesn't magically add new insight.



> Obryn, he was talking specifically about visitors, not committed community members. And we do need visitors. Recent indications suggest we need lots of visitors, to pump up ad revenue and increase our pool of potential supporters.



I know you don't often care to check context, but follow their posts backwards.  It all started here and the dialogue between Zapp and Morrus has followed from that.  Zapp wants to block ads without being a CS; Morrus doesn't care for that - probably given how long Zapp has been around.

In Zapp's most recent post, he's arguing against something that _nobody even said _- I don't think anyone at all is making the argument that every visitor should pony up before posting or reading.  Absolutely, without those folks, the site would suck, and I think everyone from Morrus on down knows this.

IMO, he's only talking about random visitors so he can claim to be one.  Also IMO, if you've capped a thousand posts and post daily, you're not a random visitor.  And if you're a regular, the least you can do is let some ads through to help a community you apparently value.

-O


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## pawsplay

> I know you don't often care to check context,




Hey, watch the cross-thread snark, ok? 

I don't know Cap'n Zapp from anybody. For all I know, he's on thirty different gaming web sites and they're not all going to get $3 a month from him. If his support is more important to ENWorld than ENWorld is to him, that's just how it is. If he spouted off earlier, that doesn't mean that automatically the next thing he says can be discounted just because it came from him. I don't agree with his position, but I can still agree with certain points that are realistic. I don't agree with you completely, Obryn, but I can agree that guests to this website should check their coats and wipe their shoes.


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## Obryn

pawsplay said:


> If he spouted off earlier, that doesn't mean that automatically the next thing he says can be discounted just because it came from him.



If it's not related to what he said earlier, then it makes no sense at all, since nobody is arguing _for _what he's arguing _against_.  Nobody mentioned visitors until him.  Threads are conversations, and neither they nor individual posts occur in vacuums.



> I don't agree with his position, but I can still agree with certain points that are realistic. I don't agree with you completely, Obryn, but I can agree that guests to this website should check their coats and wipe their shoes.



That's basically all I'm saying - our host asks that we either support the site through an account, or else allow ads.  (And, for that matter, not encourage others to block ads, either.)  I, frankly, don't see that as unreasonable in the least.  And I also don't think there's any call to gripe at said host about it.

-O


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## Lanefan

Is there any way I can pay for a CSA without coming in contact with the Evil that is Paypal?

Lanefan


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## pawsplay

Lanefan said:


> Is there any way I can pay for a CSA without coming in contact with the Evil that is Paypal?
> 
> Lanefan




Fortunately, I don't have any paladin powers to worry about losing.


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## Elephant

CapnZapp said:


> You seem to have lost all perspective here, Morrus. Is that your way of welcoming *paying customers*?!




The above phrasing would be more appropriate, given my multiple purchases of EN Publishing pdfs.


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## Elephant

RangerWickett said:


> No need to get hostile. The man just expressed his opinion.
> 
> I don't suppose someone could help me out? I don't mind letting EN World ads run (and they show up usually, since most of the time I browse away from home), but at home I have NoScript. Is there a way for me to allow scripted ads for this site (and others I frequent), but not elsewhere?
> 
> I like that I lessen the risk of stumbling into a nasty site, but I don't want to deny Russ a bit of aid in his income.




Others have posted about "allow all on this site" - and that'll work - but you'll need to restart your browser before you visit other sites if you want to avoid ad scripts/Google tracking/etc on other sites.


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## Elephant

Obryn said:


> Um...  As a veteran of several boards which have closed, let me assure you that the board and the community are tied pretty closely together.  You can't have one without the other.  You might think, "Well, the community can just move to this other site," but it really doesn't work that way.
> 
> If you value the community, I'd recommend valuing the site as well.
> 
> -O




Like I said, I value the community, but I take exception to the _management_ here.  Some things are done well (Granny rules, fostering a very active D&D community), others ... not so much (instances of bad moderation, spam tactics for newsletters, censorship).

Also - as I've already mentioned, I do happen to be a paying customer of EN Publishing, having purchased numerous PDFs.  Please keep that in mind before telling me that I need to leave the site, or that I ought to be banned, or that I'm a leech or a "net loss" to the site.  You may claim that I haven't done _enough_ to "support" the site, but to claim that I've contributed nothing is utterly without merit.

Besides - setting $$$ aside, I've posted some 800 times on this site over the past five years.  Now, sure, some of what I've posted has been an utter waste of time (the half-dozen posts in the "spamletter" thread come to mind, given that Morrus won't change his future behavior as a result of those complaints), but I challenge anyone to show that all 800 posts failed to contribute anything positive to the community.

I submit that my (unpopular) thoughts in THIS thread are among the most valuable; they give Morrus a glimpse into the mindset of those who are most alienated by some of his management decisions.

Figure out a way to alleviate some of those concerns, and you'll figure out how to attract another group of CS accounts.



Morrus said:


> Well, I can't fix it, so I've turned them off completely.




Wow.  I seldom see eye-to-eye with you, but on this point, you've earned some respect.  A few more changes like that and I might find myself rethinking my "grr Morrus!" position


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## Obryn

Elephant said:


> Also - as I've already mentioned, I do happen to be a paying customer of EN Publishing, having purchased numerous PDFs.  Please keep that in mind before telling me that I need to leave the site, or that I ought to be banned, or that I'm a leech or a "net loss" to the site.



I didn't actually say anything of the sort, but okay.



> Besides - setting $$$ aside, I've posted some 800 times on this site over the past five years.



The thing is, as I mentioned above, _everyone_ supports the site by posting.  Without posting, there's no site.  But it's a bare minimal baseline, IMO - if everyone who posts said, "Well, I post, so there's my contribution!" why would _anyone_ contribute financially?  What makes _your_ posts a more valuable contribution than anyone else's?

Frankly, I doubt that the contribution of your inestimable wisdom to the site is your primary reason for posting.  By financially contributing, you enable yourself to post _more._

-O


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## Sparky

I've always been fine with the ads, when I've paid and when I've not paid. The in-thread ones were confusing and off-putting, but I was getting used to them when they went off. I've actually been known to actually click through on an ad from time to time.

What kind of new members do you need, Morrus? New accounts? CSAs? Visitors that spend time here?

Also, does clicking through help in any way? Because, heck, I could click through on an ad a couple times a day. Sorta artificial, but I'd do it.


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## weem

Sparky said:


> Also, does clicking through help in any way? Because, heck, I could click through on an ad a couple times a day. Sorta artificial, but I'd do it.




Asking people to click your Google ads can get your Google Adsense account banned, so you will not see a request for that I'm sure - but clicking them (when you really want to check out the site on the other side) is indeed good for the (any) site displaying Google ads (though with people cutting advertising spending, the value of those clicks is down overall for the most part right now).

In my experience running (a few) RPG related sites, the value of a click on ads related to the (table top) RPG industry don't get you much (1 to 10 cents a click on average). This industry does not have a ton of money for advertising, so they don't bid much for ad placement (regarding Google ads). Compare that to the pharmaceutical companies who have a LOT of money and are highly competitive... I have a game addiction site that does not get a lot of ad clicks, but when it did they were worth 50 cents on average - I had some days where it was $2-$3 a click! But even those numbers have come down a lot in the last year (I wonder why) 

Anyway, sorry for the side-track - but I pretty regularly click the ads (especially for RPG related sites) when I am interested - or when I know I want to go to that site anyway, I will use it as a quick link there


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## darjr

I've went back and turned on adds. I have clicked through and will again.

Especially that darn soda add!


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## Holy Bovine

darjr said:


> I've went back and turned on adds. I have clicked through and will again.
> 
> Especially that darn soda add!




If it wasn't $100+ to ship a few cases to Canada I would already be enjoying the sugary goodness.


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## Theroc

This may be a weird question, but it's one of the only ways I can contribute.  Does frequently refreshing the pages and viewing other pages increase revenue through the ads?

I tend to have about 10 enworld tabs up at once, for the various play by post stuff I do around here, and one for general browsing.  Does it help when I refresh those every 10-20 minutes? 

And yes, I realize I have far too much time on my hands at the moment, which is part of why this method is one of the only ways I can contribute aside from activity.  Curse the job market!


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## PaulofCthulhu

All the "Visit our Sponsors" blocks on the page are actually untrue when you look at them. They're only true when they're clicked on. However Google's rules say you can't tell people to click on links - otherwise they close your account and confiscate outstanding money accrued. Which is understandable.

As of writing, EN World needs 810 additional subscribers by 25th December or it closes. That's a mean average of just over 11 new subscribers a day required.


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## Morrus

PIM68 said:


> All the "Visit our Sponsors" blocks on the page are actually untrue when you look at them. They're only true when they're clicked on. However Google's rules say you can't tell people to click on links - otherwise they close your account and confiscate outstanding money accrued. Which is understandable.
> 
> As of writing, EN World needs 810 additional subscribers by 25th December or it closes. That's a mean average of just over 11 new subscribers a day required.




We have an average of 10 per day so far - so we're *roughly* on target as long as it continues.


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## Theroc

So, in order to support Enworld via the ads, I actually need to click on them?


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## Cergorach

While the middle ad bar is gone, I still have two on the bottom of the page and no clue how to disable them.


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