# Master To... er... D&D E-Tools.  Is anyone actually going to buy it?



## reveal (May 22, 2002)

Is anyone going to buy this thing?  

$30?!  For a character generator?!  I don't believe....


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## EricNoah (May 22, 2002)

Well I hope you get a chance to check it out or read reviews before you decide.  

Oh and of course, I'm moving this to Software....


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## planespace (May 22, 2002)

i think i'd have to be able to download a demo before i bought this thing.  is one available? if so, has anyone tried it?


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## Kid Charlemagne (May 22, 2002)

I'll certainly look at it.  pcGen is interesting, but not terribly user friendly (even after GUI changes) and it seems to be a very fast moving target; I could download it today and there's be three updates by Friday.  On one hand, that's good, on the other, I'd like them to just finish the dang thing and leave it be for a minute!  

I get enough pointless change at work.


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## Hand of Evil (May 22, 2002)

Eric has seen it, I do believe!  

I think I will be picking it up.  would like to see some screenshots and see a review but I think I will find a use for it and the prices is about what the market is.


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## annadobritt (May 22, 2002)

I would have to use a demo first before I'd pay for it.  RPM is a good program, combined with Jamis Buck's generators.


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## Garmorn (May 24, 2002)

I am going to buy it.  From what I have found out for the average user there is little over lap between it and PCgen.  Several things I need to do I cant with PCgen with out spending hours learning new skills that I won't use any where else.  I suspect that for at least the first year or so I will be using both. One for some things and the other for other things.  Besides $30 is just one night out for my family at a fast food and we will all use it quite abit.


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## machine (May 24, 2002)

reveal said:
			
		

> *Is anyone going to buy this thing?
> 
> $30?!  For a character generator?!  I don't believe.... *




I will.  For me, character building is the longest part of the game.

HERO System has, IMO, the longest character build up but anything that will help with D&D, especially 'official products' will be great.

PCGen is a nice program but runs a little slow on my laptop and it did take awhile to figure it out.  I like RPM but it is very confusing to use without docs and I don't need a combat manager.  For combat, I use an MSExcel spreadsheet and the data sort functions.

D&D E-Tools could be a very good thing for me.

Have a great day!

machine.


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## bushfire (May 24, 2002)

Yep, I am going to buy it as soon as it comes out. Probably be able to get it for around $25 discounted.  Remember that $29.99 is the "retail" price. Get it from somewhere other than Wotc.

This is less than the cost of most hardback D20 books and close to the cost of many of the rest of the D20 books. I will definetly get more use out of "ET" than any of the Moongoose books 

Probably the most useful thing that ET will have will be the ability to add classes and HD advancement to monsters, then spit out stat blocks. This is something that no other program does well. RPM comes close though. Actually the Monster Gen part of ET has me more geeked than the Char Gen.

And not to slam PCGen (because I haven't looked at this weeks update  ), but ET *has* to be easier to use than PCGen.


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## Leopold (May 25, 2002)

bushfire said:
			
		

> *
> And not to slam PCGen (because I haven't looked at this weeks update  ), but ET *has* to be easier to use than PCGen. *





as a code monkey for them i will probably agree with you. PCGen may not be the easiest program to use but it sure has gotten a TON simpler to do now. Granted we don't have the pretty gui and all the lil bells and icons. But what we lack in style we make up for in quantity. We (unlike wotc) have more than 20 publishers that have freely given us permission to put in their material. So if you wanted to build that wookie half-fiend jedi from deadlands, you could. Your half-elf shadowdance needs a pulse rifel? no problem!


with new documentation coming out soon (end of next month) we will make it a whole lot easier to get around the program. Will Etools do it simpler and prettier yes, I will not doubt it one bit.


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## Jasperak (May 25, 2002)

I will probably buy it.  I have too many monsters that have character classes that I just do not want to bother with figuring out to see if they are correct.  $30, bah, that is nothing compared to some products out there.

I will see once it comes out, but unless there is an extreme backlash against the finished product, I will fork over the money.

PCGen crew, sorry to say it but from a past programmer (DOS TB, C++), your program drove me nuts.  If I could figure out how to do half the things that I hear it can do you would have a winner.  Maybe some bells & whistles would be nice.  The screen is just too cluttered for me.

Time to go back to my drinking.  Adios


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## Ranger REG (May 25, 2002)

I'll buy it. If I like it, I'll keep it. If not, I'll return it for refund or exchange.

I sincerely hope there will be continued support for the product, either from Wizards or a fan community for _E-Tool._


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## Twin Rose (May 26, 2002)

We're working on a PCGen-to-Campaign Suite Import now that should increase the functionality of both programs.  I've tried to make CS focus on the 'campaign' side of the world, but that naturally leads into 2-click templates and feats that affect character statistics...   All of which turns into the Character Generation side of the program.


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## Mojo (May 27, 2002)

I'll be buying it as well.

The amount of use I've gotten out of the free demo included with the Player's Handbook alone shows me that $30 for a good character generator is not too much to ask.

As for PCGen, although it is incredibly useful, it's just way too hard to figure out.  And it doesn't run properly on my laptop (though this is more a fault of the laptop than the program itself).

Anyway, $30 is less than I would spend on a night of drinking, so I consider it a good investment for something I'll get use from.


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## rhammer2 (May 27, 2002)

*Re: Re: Master To... er... D&D E-Tools.  Is anyone actually going to buy it?*

Have you tried the HERO System Creation Workshop? It is a great character builder and you can get it for about $30.




			
				machine said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I will.  For me, character building is the longest part of the game.
> 
> ...


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## WinnipegDragon (May 30, 2002)

To me, it depends on what exactly will be in the CharGen...

I haven't been following the E-Tools closely, so maybe someone can fill me in.  Will it contain all the feats/skills/PClasses/etc from the various other sourcebooks?  What about the FR specific items/domains/races?

If this has to be entered manually, forget it.  If it is all included, how does WoTC expect to sell the books if they give the content away for free?

What is the meaning of life?  What's this small lump of green putty I found in my armpit one morning?  Shall I write an ode to it?  Shall Is top asking questions?

Well?

Shall I?


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## Ranger REG (May 30, 2002)

_E-Tool_ #1 will include a character generator that covers the three core rulebooks (_PH, DMG,_ and _MM_). It will include prestige classes that appeared in _DMG._ It will allow you to generate character using races from _MM._

If you want, you can input spells, feats, skills, and races from other sourcebooks, or let someone else do it and you can download it from the internet (assuming there is a fan community for _E-Tool_).

If you want to try it out, then buy it from a store that has a policy on returned item (for refund or exchange).

If you don't want to, then don't. Personally, I don't care how you spend your money.


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## Drem Drall (Jun 2, 2002)

gawd, no! why buy software that only makes stuff for D&D? now if it took care of stuff for Star Wars and MechWarrior as well, I might think about it.


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## Ranger REG (Jun 2, 2002)

Only if Wizards do enjoy getting sued by LucasArts (owns electronic rights to _Star Wars_) and by WizKids (owns _MechWarrior_ trademark and IP).   

(I could also say Microsoft but that is below their radar ... but still within their right since they own _MW_ electronics right).


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## glenrm (Jun 5, 2002)

When I first fired up the software that came with the Player's Handbook I was very excited, here was a company that was going to do a high quality character generator and get it done in a hurry.

I may still buy the software when it comes out, especially if the quality is there.  But I am disappointed that they lost track of trying to make a set of Master Tools for D&D and instead tried to make a NWN lite.  When I heard they were scanning in minis to use as graphics I knew there would be trouble.

It is very difficult to stay on task and not expand the scope of a software project, but it is the single most important thing to do if you want to get past 90% done.


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## Bass Puppet (Jun 5, 2002)

*E-Tools....*

Well, I don't know if I am going to buy it or not.  I was really looking forward to the Master Tools program, then they abandoned the whole idea. Now what they are trying to push, is a product that is left over from the mess, and slap a low price tag on it just so they can attempt to makes some money from their misfortune.  I don’t know that many players who don’t use prestige classes from any of the add-on books. So with that in mind, why spend $30 just to create a character at first level? 

Unless they announce that there will future download upgrades that will change this….I will use the $30 on more productive products.

This wouldn’t have been so much of a tragedy if they didn’t set ourselves up for disappointment


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## Ranger REG (Jun 6, 2002)

I don't know about you, but some of us are not only going to create characters at first level. After all, how am I going to generate a mid-level kobold rogue/assassin as one of the major villains in my campaign? Or a paladin/blackguard who was a former mentor to the paladin in the PC's party?


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## MonkeyBoy (Jun 6, 2002)

... by using PCGen, then spending your money on snacks for the game?


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## EricNoah (Jun 6, 2002)

*Re: E-Tools....*



			
				Bass Puppet said:
			
		

> *why spend $30 just to create a character at first level?
> *




If someone led you to believe you could only create first level characters initially, they were incorrect.  I routinely use it to make mid-level NPCs for my games.


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## EricNoah (Jun 6, 2002)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> *
> If you want, you can input spells, feats, skills, and races from other sourcebooks, or let someone else do it and you can download it from the internet (assuming there is a fan community for E-Tool).*




Unfortunately E-Tools does not ship with an import/export utility.  The character files and the race files are all discrete files that you can pack up and ship off to others; however there's a snag there, as any custom item you make (a new feat or a new spell) does not "travel" with the character file or race file.  I'm hoping someone out there who is good with Access will be able to develop a stand-alone import/export utility for the custom items that get added to the database (something that can look through all of the tables and pull out anything that's not "core").


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## bushfire (Jun 6, 2002)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> *
> Unfortunately E-Tools does not ship with an import/export utility.  The character files and the race files are all discrete files that you can pack up and ship off to others; however there's a snag there, as any custom item you make (a new feat or a new spell) does not "travel" with the character file or race file.  I'm hoping someone out there who is good with Access will be able to develop a stand-alone import/export utility for the custom items that get added to the database (something that can look through all of the tables and pull out anything that's not "core"). *




There's at least one guy over on the Wiz Boards who already has a mockup of just that, along with entry screens for adding classes to the Access DB. All he is missing is the file structure 

I would figure about two weeks after E-Tools gets released you will get what you wish for.


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## EricNoah (Jun 6, 2002)

Well that's good to hear.  What's comforting is that many if not all of the tables have a field where all core stuff is labeled "Core" and all user-inputted items are labeled "User."  So that should help with queries I would think.


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## Bass Puppet (Jun 7, 2002)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> *I don't know about you, but some of us are not only going to create characters at first level. After all, how am I going to generate a mid-level kobold rogue/assassin as one of the major villains in my campaign? Or a paladin/blackguard who was a former mentor to the paladin in the PC's party? *




Again....only if you create a mid level NPC, Monster, or Character without a prestige class other than from the DMG.


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## CRGreathouse (Jun 7, 2002)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> *Unfortunately E-Tools does not ship with an import/export utility.*




Ah!  Even PCProfiler and RPM can import/export...

Honestly, I know what'll happen: I'll read the reviews, decide it's not worth $10, let alone $30, and use MS Word instead.  It's the only character generation utility I know of that comes with a spell-checker!


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## Ranger REG (Jun 7, 2002)

And if for some reason, you do decide to pick it up, what will you do? Eat your own words, or in this case, the monitor?   

If MSWord still work for you, then fine. Move on.


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## Psychotic Dreamer (Jun 8, 2002)

I probably wont pick it up.  Not because of how I feel about the software, but due to the fact there are lots of games coming out.  I'd rather pick up new game books than buy software I may or may not get alot of use out of.  Especially since my resources are VERy limited currently.


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## Eternalknight (Jun 8, 2002)

Guys, there is a preview of E-Tools at Wizards right now


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## Solarc (Jun 12, 2002)

*Don't know...*

I'm going to have to wait and see. I was severly dissapointed that the product will not have a mapper (or rather... they will wait and see about  adding a mapper later.) 

It's a real turn off for me when a product looses focus (computer based mapper for computer based adventures instead of PnP games) without looking at their legal and fiscal obligations.... then says that they will *maybe* give their customers the basic tools they asked for.

I'm glad that they are going to produce a character generator... but I already have a number of tools and options that do that. I need something to manage adventures and a mapper to go with it.

So I'm going to wait and see.

Solarc


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## Ranger REG (Jun 13, 2002)

Again, with the mapper.  

Fine. Petition Wizards to reconsider their decision about the crappy mapper, if THAT will satisfy you. But I'm not paying for it.


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## Agamon (Jun 13, 2002)

I'll be getting it...just as soon as someone figures out how to make custom classes with it.  Until then, it'd likely sit dusty in the corner.


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## maddman75 (Jun 14, 2002)

Definately not getting it.

- About a third of my players have prestige classes from splatbooks.
- I greatly enjoy using bad guys with prestige classes from splatbooks.
- I need a mapper and encounter manager more than I need a character and monster generator.

From what I can tell, this doesn't do anything that PCGen doesn't do.  The interface will improve.  In the open source world, this board is not the correct place to complain about a product.  Email the developers!  They will listen and fix a bug or take into account your thoughts on useability.


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## Jasperak (Jun 17, 2002)

Several months ago I said that I would buy MT/ET, whatever it is, but I have to change my mind...  My almost three year old computer cannot run a character generator that needs 4MB video ram and 400mhz.  Oh well, sorry WOTC.


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## Jeremy (Jun 17, 2002)

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/iw/iw20020607a

Is it just me or did they bury this article?  Here is the only article I can find that talks about what is actually in E-Tools.  The press release is easy enough to find, but it's a press release so they can use power words and vague euphemisms without telling you anything about the product.

Well here looking at the product we find with it you can make a character and level a character as long as he is only from the 3 Core Rule books.

No web feats, no prestige classes from any of the expansions, no dragon magazine, no new spells, no magic of faerun, no sword and fist, no masters of the wild, nothing...

Well, as far as I'm concerned the demo cd for master tools that came with my PHB can do that if I want to have a character with only the core books..

How do they justify all that wasted time?  I mean, this CD was in the first print of the PHB and it's basically got at least half of the functionality of the full product already.

What a waste...


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## Ranger REG (Jun 17, 2002)

Actually that article was posted on June 7. It's now June 16. It's a week old.

As for comparing _E-Tools_ to Chargen Demo, it's different. You cannot create monster PC or NPC with Chargen Demo, only the standard PC races. You cannot apply prestige class from _DMG_ with Chargen Demo.

(Although I am aware of unofficial utility to the Chargen Demo that allow such modifications.)

And while _E-Tools_ will provide data from ALL THREE core rulebooks (as opposed to the Chargen Demo that covers the bulk of _PH_ with a smidgen of _DMG,_ namely the magic items and weapons portion to equip your character), I'm sure you can input data such as feats from other sources, including the (appropriately named) splatbooks.


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## Jeremy (Jun 17, 2002)

So you have to pay them for a product you are going to have to write the code for?

And as far as character generation goes, as the core rulebooks don't support Monsters as PC's (that system has been sorta implemented in Dragon and in the FRCS, and might be better implemented in Tooth and Fang), the PHB and the Magic Chapter of the DMG is about all you need to make a core pc.  Unless Dwarven Defender is really your schtick.  

When compared to free products that not only have core + supplement books including psionics, but also have 3rd party information that is commonly used like stuff from Monte Cook, or Swords and Sorcery, AND also have web based spells and classes from WotC and Dragon magazine prestige classes, feats, and spells...  It really seems like a poor product.

I guess if the only thing you use are the three core books it'd be more attractive.  Maybe they'll have really pretty pictures or colors.  But I like to be able to make a Duelist or a Cavalier or a Hunter of the Dead or a Templar or a pressure point focused NPC using Falling Star Strike and Freeze the Lifeblood.  If it prints out on a WotC looking character sheet and uses WotC rules accurately, then that's all that matters me when I come to the table to play...


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## RobNJ (Jun 18, 2002)

There's nothing to see here, move along


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## Henry (Jun 18, 2002)

RobNJ said:
			
		

> *There's nothing to see here, move along *




Plenty to see, plenty to do! 

I probably WON'T buy it, but mostly because PCGen works well for me. E-Tools, had it lived up to the original promise, or even 60% of the original promise, I would have found indispensible. But I will find it difficult to justify to myself.

I may change my mind, but unless there are features in it that are not listed in any of the previews, I will not have a reason to.


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## Bass Puppet (Jun 21, 2002)

*And to add more fuel to the Fire.....*

"D&D E-Tools Update: D&D E-Tools has run into a slight production delay. Unfortunately, we do not yet have a new release date, but we will keep you informed as soon as we find out more information. "

You would think that this was Microsoft Windows XP.


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## thalmin (Jun 21, 2002)

Just a question for the anyone in the know. Will E-Tools be designed for 3rd or 4th Edition D&D?


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## Ranger REG (Jun 21, 2002)

For now, _E-Tools_ is an electronic aids for 3e.


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## Hikaru (Jun 25, 2002)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> *I'll certainly look at it.  pcGen is interesting, but not terribly user friendly (even after GUI changes) and it seems to be a very fast moving target; I could download it today and there's be three updates by Friday.  On one hand, that's good, on the other, I'd like them to just finish the dang thing and leave it be for a minute!
> 
> I get enough pointless change at work. *




Are you seriously complaining because they update the "dang thing" so often and for free?? 

Nothing obliges you to dowload every single update. I don't. But I do update my PCGen from time to time, or I go and check when I want to use something in particular (like a specific supplement) to see if it has not been implemented since my last download.


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## KnowTheToe (Jun 25, 2002)

If you can add feats and spells and skills, then i will get it.  I did not think it was going to be flexable.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Jun 25, 2002)

Hikaru said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Are you seriously complaining because they update the "dang thing" so often and for free??
> 
> Nothing obliges you to dowload every single update. I don't. But I do update my PCGen from time to time, or I go and check when I want to use something in particular (like a specific supplement) to see if it has not been implemented since my last download. *




It becomes an issue of compatability across a group.  Will a character made with version X.X import completely and flawlessly if Emailed to someone with version X.X+2?  Which versions have support for which products, etc, etc.  There's a reason updates get released in one big swoop, not in 500 little ones.

That said, the main reason I don't use it is that I can do it by hand faster, especially once the learning curve is taken into account.


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## bolen (Jun 25, 2002)

could companies just publish downloads so their stuff could be used in e-tools or is this not allowed?  If so E-tools should be just like PC gen (only it costs money but is easier to use) If I can only include official Wizards stuff it seems kind of pointless when PC Gen is out there.


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