# Increasing Save DC's for Poisons



## EroGaki (Mar 15, 2009)

Hello all. I was looking at some of the poisons listed in the DMG and realized that they aren't very good. Are there any methods of increasing the DC's for poisons?


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## Jhaelen (Mar 16, 2009)

EroGaki said:


> Hello all. I was looking at some of the poisons listed in the DMG and realized that they aren't very good. Are there any methods of increasing the DC's for poisons?



The only one I can think of is the _Poison Expert_ feat from Complete Scoundrel (for a measly +1). 

IIRC, Dungeonscape also includes a list of very expensive, more potent poisons.

Apart from that your best bet (assuming you're crafting your own poison) would probably be to hunt advanced poison-using monsters to get the ingredients for more potent poisons.


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## Kask (Mar 16, 2009)

EroGaki said:


> Hello all. I was looking at some of the poisons listed in the DMG and realized that they aren't very good. Are there any methods of increasing the DC's for poisons?





If you are the DM just increase the DC.


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## Darklone (Mar 16, 2009)

Or breed an elite array snake with high CON and with the feat ability focus.


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## frankthedm (Mar 16, 2009)

The thing is a lot of living targets in the D&D game have a very high fort save.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...asters-fort-saves-most-monsters-too-high.html

A toxin with a high enough DC to be practical against bigger brutes, will be unavoidable to a chunk of foes whose size varies depending on the foes the DM uses.


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## Starbuck_II (Mar 16, 2009)

frankthedm said:


> The thing is a lot of living targets in the D&D game have a very high fort save.
> http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...asters-fort-saves-most-monsters-too-high.html
> 
> A toxin with a high enough DC to be practical against bigger brutes, will be unavoidable to a chunk of foes whose size varies depending on the foes the DM uses.



How about a feat that changes the type of save?
While weird: (make feat supernatural?) it would help.
Maybe, each time use the poisonm can choose the save. Saves wo'nt be bigger but better chance to affect enemy.

After all, Warriors (warrior as a type not the class) people/monster usually have low Ref or Will (sometimes both).

Or a feat that makes all poison use have a minimum DC similar to spell poison (using Character level instead of caster): DC 13 + 1/2 Level + Wis (I increased DC from 10 to 13 to make more viable)
So a level 10 person with 16 Wis using Large scorpian poison has a + Wis equals DC 21. This is 3 higher than the listed DC: so a small but useful benefit.


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## irdeggman (Mar 16, 2009)

How about a spell that reduces the pertenant ability score?

There are several of those.

Cast the spell first then apply the poison.


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## azhrei_fje (Mar 17, 2009)

<threadjack>
Sorry, this isn't directly related to increasing the DCs of poisons, but it _is_ poison-related.

I put together a web page with information on poisons from the SRD and added a few from the BoVD (I think that's where I got them from?).  Follow the link and click on *poison-pf.html*.

The chart holds information for both 3.5E and PF and uses javascript to toggle between them.  It's big advantage is that it will calculate the average creation time for a given poison when you tell it what the *Craft (poison)* check is for the craftsman.

I needed this because I have a player who wanted to put ranks into making poison and I was a bit leery about it.  It turns out that the it takes so long to make poison, that it might not be such a bad thing after all. 
</threadjack>


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## akbearfoot (Mar 17, 2009)

I think it's generally a terrible idea to let someone pick which save to target with a poison.  And the mechanical aspect of that doesn't really make any sense to me.


Poisons attack a persons internal organs....You can't will away, or bluff yourself into not being hurt by them.  Barring special cases like feats or maneuvers specifically let you replace fort saves with other rolls.  Make a reflex save or take 4 pts of Wisdom damage, HUH?!

It also makes very little sense from a balance perspective because suddenly the low DCs become extremely difficult because you could always just target the low save.  Fighters and brute monsters will often fail low DC will saves, and clerics and druids will often fail low DC reflex saves.  Suddenly Dragons start having trouble saving against reflex poisons.


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## Starbuck_II (Mar 17, 2009)

akbearfoot said:


> I think it's generally a terrible idea to let someone pick which save to target with a poison. And the mechanical aspect of that doesn't really make any sense to me.
> 
> 
> Poisons attack a persons internal organs....You can't will away, or bluff yourself into not being hurt by them. Barring special cases like feats or maneuvers specifically let you replace fort saves with other rolls. Make a reflex save or take 4 pts of Wisdom damage, HUH?!




Dude, this is a hypothetical supernatural feat: it doesn't need to make sense. Any more than bat guano turns into a fireball.

Unless, you can explain how that works.

You can be against having to use a supernatural feat, but the fact that it is supe4rnatural makes sense wth respect to its effect.


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## thorian (Mar 17, 2009)

The web enhancement for the Epic Level Handbook has some interesting poisons: Epic Insights - Book of Vile Darkness 
While the DCs are not too high, the poisons are intermixed with antimagic, so victims won't get most of their bonuses against them.


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## concerro (Mar 17, 2009)

Starbuck_II said:


> Dude, this is a hypothetical supernatural feat: it doesn't need to make sense. Any more than bat guano turns into a fireball.
> 
> Unless, you can explain how that works.
> 
> You can be against having to use a supernatural feat, but the fact that it is supe4rnatural makes sense wth respect to its effect.




It should make sense to an extent. Suspension of belief only goes so far. There should at least be some time of fluff that explains how you can change the save it affects. Even  the fireball makes sense because it is being transformed by the caster's ability to control elemental forces. How quick you can move has nothing to do with how tough you are. If it were to affect will I might buy the person's force of will to push his body to the point where the poison had no affect.


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## Jack Simth (Mar 17, 2009)

Well, to replace ingested poisons, you could use "potions" of hostile spells.  E.g., a Potion of Extended Acid Arrow (at a high caster level, so it continues for a long time) would do very mean things to anyone drinking it.  As would a caster level 11 potion of Scorching Ray. 

Also... there's a feat specifically for adding the users primary casting modifier to the save DC for magic items...

A little harder to apply that to weapon-based poisons, but when it comes down to it, that's a GOOD thing.  You don't really want the ranger spitting out six Save-Or-Lose arrows per round  that work on 75% of targets - especially not if the save DC is high enough to make it chancy for the target.


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## Kask (Mar 18, 2009)

thorian said:


> the poisons are intermixed with antimagic, so victims won't get most of their bonuses against them.




Like what?  Fort save, racial bonuses, con bonus.  None are effected by antimagic.


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## irdeggman (Mar 18, 2009)

Kask said:


> Like what?  Fort save, racial bonuses, con bonus.  None are effected by antimagic.




Any spell or item that boosts Con and thus the fort save would be negated.

I believe that is what he is referring to.

Magical enhancement bonuses would be negated.

Any spell that would give a reroll of a saving throw would likewise not work, well I would think it wouldn't but I haven't read the anti-magic description of the epic poison reference.


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## Kask (Mar 18, 2009)

irdeggman said:


> Any spell or item that boosts Con and thus the fort save would be negated.
> 
> I believe that is what he is referring to.




Oh, a tiny % of total for a Fort save.  Not very scary.


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## Starbuck_II (Mar 18, 2009)

Kask said:


> Oh, a tiny % of total for a Fort save. Not very scary.



 Dude, for PCs Cloaks of Resistance make up 1/4 of your save bonus usually.
This is why they are one of the big 5 magic items: Magic items it is bad idea to not get upgrades versions.


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## Runestar (Mar 18, 2009)

Starbuck_II said:


> Dude, for PCs Cloaks of Resistance make up 1/4 of your save bonus usually.
> This is why they are one of the big 5 magic items: Magic items it is bad idea to not get upgrades versions.




It would be useless on monsters, who already get very high fort saves by virtue of having tons of racial HD and obscene con scores, without relying on magic gear/spells. So if you are a PC looking to get more use out of poisons, that is of limited use.


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## Kask (Mar 18, 2009)

Starbuck_II said:


> Dude, for PCs Cloaks of Resistance make up 1/4 of your save bonus usually.




Really?  I didn't know cloaks grew on trees.  I've never seen a party where more than one PC had a cloak of resistance...


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## Jack Simth (Mar 18, 2009)

Kask said:


> Really?  I didn't know cloaks grew on trees.  I've never seen a party where more than one PC had a cloak of resistance...



So ... do you generally play low-wealth campaigns, does nobody take any Crafting feats (Resistance is on most casters' spell lists - and it's a cantrip), do your groups generally end up with no time to craft, or do people in your play groups usually have better things to do with that item slot?


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## Runestar (Mar 19, 2009)

Kask said:


> Really?  I didn't know cloaks grew on trees.  I've never seen a party where more than one PC had a cloak of resistance...




Actually, thanks to MIC, there is no reason for every PC not to have the equivalent of a cloak of resistance. It is expected and necessary, in that the designers assumed you would have access to such basic gear when they designed their encounters. 

They don't exactly have to grow on trees, but eventually, everybody in the party should have one. Unless of course, your fighter looks forward to failing every will save he comes across or something...


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## irdeggman (Mar 19, 2009)

And cloaks of resistance frequently show up as treasure in published adventures (at least as often as rings of protection do).

A cloak of resistance +1 is a minor magic item (check the tables in the DMG) with a *market price* of 1000 gp.

That makes them extremely cheap and easy to craft.

For comparison a potion of Cure Moderate Wounds has a market price of 300 gp and a potion of Neutralize Poison has a market price of 750 gp. A ring of protection +1 has a market price of 2000 gp.  How often do they show up in an adventure?


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## EroGaki (Mar 19, 2009)

irdeggman said:


> And cloaks of resistance frequently show up as treasure in published adventures (at least as often as rings of protection do).
> 
> A cloak of resistance +1 is a minor magic item (check the tables in the DMG) with a *market price* of 1000 gp.
> 
> ...




Very often. In fact, those items are the most common you will find in many adventure paths. It is rare that you find a cloak that isn't Resistance. At least, in the adventure paths my DM runs.


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## Kask (Mar 20, 2009)

irdeggman said:


> A cloak of resistance +1 is a minor magic item (check the tables in the DMG) with a *market price* of 1000 gp.




A +1 item at Epic level isn't going to make a real difference one way or another.  Which was my original point...


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## irdeggman (Mar 20, 2009)

Kask said:


> A +1 item at Epic level isn't going to make a real difference one way or another.  Which was my original point...




Then do the extrapolation for "normal" items to "epic" equivalents.

It is like say a +15 equivalent long sword (eqic only).

Comparing minor items to epic is worng.

But as I recall your comment was 



> Really? I didn't know cloaks grew on trees. I've never seen a party where more than one PC had a cloak of resistance...




Maybe I misinterpreted what you were trying to say.

I was merely pointing out that cloaks of resistance are fairly common (as others have likewise pointed out).

I intended no extrapolation as to epic items but it can be done.


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## milo (Mar 21, 2009)

The Assassin's Guide to Poisons is a very useful pdf that I have.  I think it was $3, but I don't remember where I got it from.  Has some new poisons, feats for poison use, and rules on crafting poison.
Google it and you should be able to find it.


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## akbearfoot (Mar 22, 2009)

Is there such a thing as a supernatural feat?

A level 20 wizard has a base fort save of around +6....maybe another 5 if they have an decent con and an amulet of health.  so a +5 cloak of resistance = around +45% to their normal save.  I wouldn't call that minor.


The strongest epic poisoner  I can think of would be a wisdom focused Druid with Heightened empowered Poison spells, greater focus in transmutation and a few misc items that can boost poison DCs.  Or one wild shaped into something nasty with natural poison and huge Con bonuses from items/spells and ability focus poison.

The reason I think a blanket ability like the one your asking for is WAY overpowered is it would essentially be an ability that could instead read 'All your opponents get -20 to save vs your poisons'.  Essentially thats what you are asking because of the huge discrepancy in saves for tons of monsters, ESPECIALLY npcs.  Sounds like a great feat for a wizard too...'all your spells attack the opponents weakest save'


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## Jack Simth (Mar 22, 2009)

akbearfoot said:


> Is there such a thing as a supernatural feat?



Well, there's feats who's benefits are Supernatural Effects.  Is that close enough?


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## irdeggman (Mar 22, 2009)

Jack Simth said:


> Well, there's feats who's benefits are Supernatural Effects.  Is that close enough?





Help me understand this one please.

A couple of examples would be real useful since I can't think of any of the top of my head, but I'm old and the memory is the second thing to go - I forgot the first ; )


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## Jack Simth (Mar 22, 2009)

irdeggman said:


> Help me understand this one please.
> 
> A couple of examples would be real useful since I can't think of any of the top of my head, but I'm old and the memory is the second thing to go - I forgot the first ; )



Well, every single one of the Complete Mage Reserve Feats is gives you a Su ability (Fiery Burst, Acidic Splatter, Elemental Summoning, Minor Shapeshift, and so on).  

Most of the benefits from the Vow of Poverty (book of Exalted Deeds) are Su, and go away in an AMF.


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## irdeggman (Mar 22, 2009)

Jack Simth said:


> Well, every single one of the Complete Mage Reserve Feats is gives you a Su ability (Fiery Burst, Acidic Splatter, Elemental Summoning, Minor Shapeshift, and so on).




Thank you for pointing thouse out. 



> Most of the benefits from the Vow of Poverty (book of Exalted Deeds) are Su, and go away in an AMF.




That would be because all supernatural abilities are suppressed in an AMF - but they can't be dispelled nor are they subject to spell resistance.

I don't know if I'd say most, but some of the most useful of the scaling ones are (AC bonus, Exalted Strike, Deflection, and DR - with the True Seeing ability being the other Su one).

The ones that are Ex and thus not subject to AMF effects are:
Bonus feats (could be depending on the feat chosen), Endure Elements, Sustenance, Resistance (bonus to all saving throws and scales), Ability Score Enhancement, Natural Armor (also scales), Mind Shielding, Greater Sustenance, Energy Resistance (also scales), Freedom of Movement, Regeneration.


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## humble minion (Mar 22, 2009)

Back to the original post, I'm pretty sure that Ability Focus (+2 DC) is usable on poison if the poison is a creature's ability, and not something that's meant to be smeared on a blade, incorporated into a trap, or slipped into a pie.

There's also the Deadly Poison and Virulent Poison feats from Savage Species, one of which increases the DC by another 2, and I think the other one doubles the secondary damage.


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