# Accountability



## Cold Beer

$15,000, folks...

*goes out on a limb*


Ok, so we've saved the (en)world for now.  We've all seen the money come in and now the site stays up...so now what?  What happens when that money runs out?  How is that money being put to use?  Who's responsible for it?  What guarantee do we have that in a few months there won't be another crisis and we need to hold another "Chat-a-thon" to save the Community, and Morrus' collective butts?

Any ideas?

Am I the only one worried about this?


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## Darrin Drader

Of course you aren't the only one worried about this. Even with the server upgrades and such, the money raised should be good for a couple years now at least. So yeah, what assurances are we going to be given that the money is going to be managed well now that there is a pile of it?


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## jgbrowning

People, it's a gift. If Morrus trusts me enough to let me sit on 10k that you all gave to him, you should trust Morrus do what he needs to do to the best of his ability. When you give money to help a friend, don't expect an accounting of how all of it's going to be spent. When he went to Gen Con, no one asked to see an accounting of his expenses there...

I know it's a lot of money. That shouldn't matter except to make everyone proud for being part of a great community. I've (and I'm sure others like Eric and Morrus) have been working pretty hard for the past two days to keep things up and going. Talk like this gets our spirits down and loses sight of why we did this to begin with: to preserve what we had already, not to demand more.

joe b.


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## EricNoah

I think your "assurances" are that Russ will continue to do the best he can to run the site as well as he can with the resources that he has because he loves running EN World.  When he starts to run out of resources, hopefully he'll make it clear that more are needed.  If people still think it's worth it, they'll donate again when it's needed.  If they don't, they won't.  

Donating to EN World is no guarantee that Russ will choose the service provider you think he should choose, or upgrade to the server that you think he should upgrade to, or charge $40 for CS accounts instead of $35, or anything like that.  I hope that doesn't sound too harsh or anything, but I'm just hoping that folks donated out of a sense of trust and not the desire to micromanage the webmaster into the ground or something.


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## alsih2o

there are no assurances. 

 what there is is a track record of making aplace that is as friendly and helpful as possible.

 the best indicator of future performance is past performance(imho) and i think what we need to focus on is morrus' previous handling and his obvious deidcation to what he is doing.

 please, everyone try to remember why you donated. becaus eof what this place is, not what oyu want it to be.


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## Emiricol

Considering everyone who donated did so on faith, I think their hearts are in the right place.  Asking questions, politely of course, ought never be a threat if intentions are honorable.  I don't see quite why that would get your spirits down.  Do questions reduce the $15,000 people raised in 12 hours for this, my favorite place on the Web?

 I don't think there's any real reason to get upset on this.  And I know from other threads a variety of solutions are being discussed.  I'm sure once Morrus and co decide on a course of action, they'll let us know what is happening


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## barsoomcore

If you'd wanted double-entry accounting and daily reports, you should have asked for that before you gave.

The verb in question is "give". Not "lend" or "invest" or even "make available" -- it's "give".

Like Eric says, if you find yourself unhappy with the use to which the money is put, don't give anymore. But if you want conditions attached to its use, you shouldn't have given it in the first place.


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## Mistwell

The thing is, it ISN'T a lot of money.  Morrus should be able to make enough money running this that he doesn't feel forced to get a different job, because the work necessary to run these boards IS a job.  He should be able to pay his mods a bit of money, and pay for reporters and reviewers contributions.  Other major boards in similar fields are able to do this.  Comicbookresources.com, for example, is self-sufficient and pays for its owner and reporters, and is able to sponsor some things in the larger comic book community.  EnWorld should be able to do the same thing.

$16K doesn't even come close to covering the costs, paying Morrus enough to live on, and paying some mods, reviewers, and reports a bit of money for their time.  It's chump change in fact.

I think it is sad that there is even a question about the accountability of Morrus and these funds.


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## Olgar Shiverstone

Dude, it's a _donation_.  

You want assurances, go buy some stock in something with a board of directors.  Like Enron.


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## Vascant

Perhaps people missed the point of what I think Cold Beer's post was concerning...

Most places that I give a financial investment to have a business plan, something that states why they are there and what is it going to take to stay a float and even prosper.  This seems to be missing or have gone array.

The issue was lack of funds, this has been resolved..
Now for a more important issue, how to not get here again.

I did not donate anything, I invested in a place that I use daily to figure out whats going on in the D20 world.  What do I expect in return, service as the same I have received in the past.  I think Enworld just needs a plan, a business plan.


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## Cold Beer

jgbrowning said:
			
		

> People, it's a gift. If Morrus trusts me enough to let me sit on 10k that you all gave to him, you should trust Morrus do what he needs to do to the best of his ability. When you give money to help a friend, don't expect an accounting of how all of it's going to be spent. When he went to Gen Con, no one asked to see an accounting of his expenses there...
> 
> I know it's a lot of money. That shouldn't matter except to make everyone proud for being part of a great community. I've (and I'm sure others like Eric and Morrus) have been working pretty hard for the past two days to keep things up and going. Talk like this gets our spirits down and loses sight of why we did this to begin with: to preserve what we had already, not to demand more.
> 
> joe b.





I can't dissagree more.  When you give money to a friend in need, you expect accountabiltiy.  This is NOT A GIFT.  If I give a friend money I expect that it will be used well within the parameters of the need based on what I know about the person.  I don't give out handouts.  What assurance do I have that the money is being used well?  

None.

It's nice that there are good intentions for the money, but we all know what the road to hell is paved with...

If Morrus wants to use this forum as a means of income, then he needs to run it like a buisness.  Charge us for usage, or expect the boards to go under.

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong...


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## jgbrowning

Emiricol said:
			
		

> Considering everyone who donated did so on faith, I think their hearts are in the right place.  Asking questions, politely of course, ought never be a threat if intentions are honorable.




Asking questions is cool. But it's all in how you ask. I'm dying to know what morrus is going to do with the money. I know he'll pay of cyberstreet and pay some in advance and I imagine there's a very very good chance of some sort of server upgrade, but other than that I don't know.

Knowing him, he'll probably find it hard to use any of it for anything _besides_ something directly related to the site, but I'd love it if he did take the missus out for a nice date and maybe a weekend trip. He's put a lot of effort into this site; I think he deserves it.



> I don't see quite why that would get your spirits down.  Do questions reduce the $15,000 people raised in 12 hours for this, my favorite place on the Web?




What gets my spirit down is watching what was given with pure heart and out of a sense of community (unlike no other place I've ever seen) turn into a sense of accountability. That somehow now Morrus is responsible to us who gave him money, _simply because we gave a lot of it._ That's a fine distinction, but words like accountability and assurances imply a completely different relationship than friendship or comradery.  They're the words people use when investing or when making business arraignments.

This is what brings my sprits down.



> I don't think there's any real reason to get upset on this.  And I know from other threads a variety of solutions are being discussed.  I'm sure once Morrus and co decide on a course of action, they'll let us know what is happening




I'm not upset, just wanted bring up what I think are important distinctions to keep in mind. I think it's important to ask questions, but more as a "Heya, what are you going to do?" type rather than, "what assurances do we have now that we've given you some of our money."

joe b.


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## Dimwhit

First, let's remember that if 16k was raised, it can't all go to Morrus. Expeditious Retreat has to pay fees and possibly taxes on it.

Also, Morrus already mentioned many things he's planning to do. EN World has been in debt for a while. Not only the $1600 for hosting, but they had old shipping costs to deal with and other things, all of which Morrus said would be paid off. Plus he said he'd be buying a new server as well.

I think that out of the money he'll actually get, paying off debt, getting a new server, and paying a few months ahead for hosting will probably be close to it. And I think that 's great! Morrus shouldn't have to be burdened with debt becaues of EN World. Remember, our donations were to bail out the website, and we did. Morrus' track record (as well as those helping him out) are good enough for me. I'll trust he does what needs doing.

Now if he went and blew all the money on a horse that didn't even finish the race rather than taking care of things...well, I suppose we could get ticked then.  But I'm not worried about that.

So let's relax and be happy that our favorite website is sticking around for a while!


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## EricNoah

Ok, folks, let's try to remember what makes this a great community -- the way we treat each other.  Don't assume the worst simply because the question doesn't make sense to you.


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## Cold Beer

Vascant said:
			
		

> Perhaps people missed the point of what I think Cold Beer's post was concerning...
> 
> Most places that I give a financial investment to have a business plan, something that states why they are there and what is it going to take to stay a float and even prosper.  This seems to be missing or have gone array.
> 
> The issue was lack of funds, this has been resolved..
> Now for a more important issue, how to not get here again.
> 
> I did not donate anything, I invested in a place that I use daily to figure out whats going on in the D20 world.  What do I expect in return, service as the same I have received in the past.  I think Enworld just needs a plan, a business plan.




Thanks Vas.   This is what i'm talking about.  Even charities have to report their accounting....

What's the buisness plan for Enworld.org?


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## Morrus

There won't be any quick decisions made, folks.  I'm going to do some careful thinking, I'm going to talk to people and get recommendations and advice.

All I know for absolute certain is that $2000 will go immediately to Cyberstreet and that ENnies debts will be paid off.

Options include but are not limited to advance payment of hosting and a server upgrade. I don't have a clue how much the server would cost yet (I've had various people tell me it would cost differing amounts between $1000 and $5000, so some careful investigation is needed).

Asking questions is cool, but let's try and do it in a way which doesn't sour the mood which has been prevalent here over the last day or so.  Let's let people feel elated and triumphant for a little while, eh?


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## just__al

*Accountability, Schmaccountability.  I donated money to give back to a community who's members have given me sage advice about DM'ing my campaign, facinating story hours and a reminder that gaming isn't just for geeks its for everybody.  If you didn't want to help keep this community alive, why did you donate?*

*I should have become a community supporter a long time ago, this crisis was just a nice little reminder.  Hell I give 25 bucks a year to livejournal and that site is just a collosal waste of time.  This site is a resource and has seriously improved the quality of my gaming and the people I game with.  *

*Thank you Morris and all the members of this community who collectively conspire to decrease my non-gaming productivity.*


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## jgbrowning

nevermind


joe b.


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## Mark

jgbrowning said:
			
		

> nevermind
> 
> 
> joe b.




ditto


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## Cold Beer

jgbrowning said:
			
		

> nevermind
> 
> 
> joe b.





*disarms flamethrower*


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## Dimwhit

> There won't be any quick decisions made, folks.  I'm going to do some careful thinking, I'm going to talk to people and get recommendations and advice.
> 
> All I know for absolute certain is that $2000 will go immediately to Cyberstreet and that ENnies debts will be paid off.
> 
> Options include but are not limited to advance payment of hosting and a server upgrade. I don't have a clue how much the server would cost yet (I've had various people tell me it would cost differing amounts between $1000 and $5000, so some careful investigation is needed).
> 
> Asking questions is cool, but let's try and do it in a way which doesn't sour the mood which has been prevalent here over the last day or so.  Let's let people feel elated and triumphant for a little while, eh?




Thanks Morrus! Let us know some of what you come up with when you decide! Not out of accountability, but because I can't wait to find out. I'm looking forward to a server upgrade, if that ends up being possible. But more than anything, I'm glad you were able to get the site out of debt. I know what the pressure of debt is like, and I don't envy what you were going through. It's awesome that the weight has been lifted for now. Enjoy!


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## Teflon Billy

These questions of accountability are saddening.

I'm not sure what peopl think has gone on here for the last day or so, so let me bring you up to speed.

A Guy we know--who runs a website we hang out at--got into dire financial straits becasue if that website.

He (no, not him, a group of his friends) asked the website community to help out.

_LEGIONS_ of them did so.

That's all. There was no public offering of stock, no formation of a board of directors...nothing like that.

Anyone who thought they were "investing" their money in anything misunderstood. You weren't asked to _invest_; you were asked to _give_.

So don't go banging the table demanding a business plan or expecting input into the way things are run. You were asked for help and, God bless you, you came through.

Feel good about that. Don't get all "how is *my* money being spent? I demand to know! I am an investor!"

Because you aren't. 

You're "one of the gang"


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## Emiricol

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> These questions of accountability are saddening.
> 
> I'm not sure what peopl think has gone on here for the last day or so, so let me bring you up to speed.
> 
> A Guy we know--who runs a website we hang out at--got into dire financial straits becasue if that website.
> 
> He (no, not him, a group of his friends) asked the website community to help out.
> 
> _LEGIONS_ of them did so.
> 
> That's all. There was no public offering of stock, no formation of a board of directors...nothing like that.
> 
> Anyone who thought they were "investing" their money in anything misunderstood. You weren't asked to invest; you were asked to give.
> 
> So don't go holding your breath for a business plan or expecting input into the way things are run. You were asked for help and, God bless you, you came through.
> 
> Feel good about that. Don't get all "how is *my* money being spent? I demand to know! I am an investor!"
> 
> Cause you aren't. You're "one of the gang"




 And here I thought we were all getting along again


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## RingXero

Morrus said:
			
		

> Options include but are not limited to advance payment of hosting and a server upgrade. I don't have a clue how much the server would cost yet (I've had various people tell me it would cost differing amounts between $1000 and $5000, so some careful investigation is needed).




Morrus, if I can be of any help in this matter just give me a holler, Myself and a number of the techs that I work with build/install/maintain servers for a living.  Specializing in database serving.  We have done a lot of work on loads, expected performance per dollar, etc...


RX


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## EricNoah

> And here I thought we were all getting along again




Oh, we are -- Teflon Billy style!  Yee haw!  *shoots pistols in the air like Yosemite Sam*


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## just__al

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> These questions of accountability are saddening.
> 
> I'm not sure what peopl think has gone on here for the last day or so, so let me bring you up to speed.
> 
> A Guy we know--who runs a website we hang out at--got into dire financial straits becasue if that website.
> 
> He (no, not him, a group of his friends) asked the website community to help out.
> 
> _LEGIONS_ of them did so.
> 
> That's all. There was no public offering of stock, no formation of a board of directors...nothing like that.
> 
> Anyone who thought they were "investing" their money in anything misunderstood. You weren't asked to _invest_; you were asked to _give_.
> 
> So don't go banging the table demanding a business plan or expecting input into the way things are run. You were asked for help and, God bless you, you came through.
> 
> Feel good about that. Don't get all "how is *my* money being spent? I demand to know! I am an investor!"
> 
> Because you aren't.
> 
> You're "one of the gang"



Preach on Brutha Billy!!


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## romp

Morrus said:
			
		

> Asking questions is cool, but let's try and do it in a way which doesn't sour the mood which has been prevalent here over the last day or so.  Let's let people feel elated and triumphant for a little while, eh?




When someone contributes money to an endeavour in a public fashion (i.e. soliciting donations) there should be some accounting as to where that money is going. 

The difference is that no one should assume Morrus has any bad intentions for that money. Morrus has a very good track record for running ENWorld responsibly and well.

Accounting for the money should be after the fact; at some point in the future Morrus should be putting up an open letter saying that he is buying a new server and moving the site to a new host and that this is going to cost X amount of dollars.... That should be enough to satisfy everyone. We should not be putting Morrus under a gun and demand a penny by penny acounting of exactly where and what the money was used for. 

If the funds run low then Morrus and the Expeditious Press people should be kind enough to put a reminder up to keep at least the minimum money coming in (enough to cover hosting costs)

For right now just be happy that you have somewhere to post at, and it is a user supported endeavour...


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## Mistwell

At some point, Morrus has at his disposal quite the team of volunteers to deal with this issue.  He has a former Bank VP with business plan experience offering to help with a business plan.  He has an attorney with both net business plan and non-profit (or for-profit) incorporation experience.  He has a tech available to donate time to put a new server together.  I know there is a very experienced accountant/finance guy (currently the CFO of an ad agency) who frequents this board and would likely donate his time.

And I am willing to bet he will have any other professional he might need available and willing to donate their time and services.

So, I really wouldn't worry too much about it.  At some point, when things calm down, I'm sure he will come up with a great plan to make sure this issue doesn't happen ever again.


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## Morrus

You'll all probably be interested to hear that some of the money has already been used. Cyberstreet has already been paid $2000, and all ENnies costs from earlier this year have now been repaid to the various people who were owed. That's all debt cleared, which was my first priority.

We're a little worried about tax etc., because we don't want to be taxed by the US government and then by the UK government, but we should figure out the best way to handle that soon.  Apparently Joe has a tax lawyer in the family.


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## Nifft

Morrus said:
			
		

> That's all debt cleared, which was my first priority.




Yeah, right. We know the first $1,000 went to ALE AND WHORES. You gotta respect tradition.

 -- N, keepin' it real


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## Tarrasque Wrangler

Doesn't this thread belong in Meta?



Morrus, my advice to you is this: take the money and run.  Barbados is nice.  So's Hawaii.  I'm sure you've had your eye on some solid gold d20s; now's the time.  I actually have some lovely swampland in Florida which I could be persuaded to part with.  

It's time to load up on the bling-bling.


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## Morrus

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> Morrus, my advice to you is this: take the money and run. Barbados is nice. So's Hawaii. I'm sure you've had your eye on some solid gold d20s; now's the time.



For goodness' sake, man!  When I tell you about my top-secret supervillain plans, I don't expect you to immediately go and tell everyone!


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## francisca

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> These questions of accountability are saddening.
> 
> I'm not sure what peopl think has gone on here for the last day or so, so let me bring you up to speed.
> 
> A Guy we know--who runs a website we hang out at--got into dire financial straits becasue if that website.
> 
> He (no, not him, a group of his friends) asked the website community to help out.
> 
> _LEGIONS_ of them did so.
> 
> That's all. There was no public offering of stock, no formation of a board of directors...nothing like that.
> 
> Anyone who thought they were "investing" their money in anything misunderstood. You weren't asked to _invest_; you were asked to _give_.
> 
> So don't go banging the table demanding a business plan or expecting input into the way things are run. You were asked for help and, God bless you, you came through.
> 
> Feel good about that. Don't get all "how is *my* money being spent? I demand to know! I am an investor!"
> 
> Because you aren't.
> 
> You're "one of the gang"




So yeah, I'm at this party you know.  And the keg goes dry.  A hat is passed around and I throw in a fiver.  If I don't get my $5 worth, I'm gonna whoop some butt.

whatever. give me a break. I gave to keep the party going.  TB is right on, as usual.


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## barsoomcore

francisca said:
			
		

> I gave to keep the party going.



I'll bring the stewardesses.


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## jgbrowning

Morrus said:
			
		

> You'll all probably be interested to hear that some of the money has already been used. Cyberstreet has already been paid $2000, and all ENnies costs from earlier this year have now been repaid to the various people who were owed. That's all debt cleared, which was my first priority.
> 
> We're a little worried about tax etc., because we don't want to be taxed by the US government and then by the UK government, but we should figure out the best way to handle that soon.  Apparently Joe has a tax lawyer in the family.




He's not a tax lawyer, he's just a tricky asian.... (Suzi's dad!  *and his lawyer* )

The taxes on our end are taken care of everyone.  More to Morrus! (and the UK government )

joe b.


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## Tom Cashel

I guess I'll just admit the fact that a.) I'm currently stinking drunk, and b.) I didn't contribute one red cent.

I'm just hanging around, watching the outpouring of emotion over continuing to have the privilege of posting messages to each other on a light gray/dark gray/black backgorund, as opposed to the evil backgrounds offered by rpg.net, nutkinland, and Monte's yellow-and-black "Okay Your Turn" wasteland.

I guess my emotional investiture is about equal to my fianancial investiture.

Not trying to make any point...just saying is all.  I am the "self-appoinetd board cut-up" (according to Darrin), after all.


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## alsih2o

Morrus said:
			
		

> You'll all probably be interested to hear that some of the money has already been used. Cyberstreet has already been paid $2000, and all ENnies costs from earlier this year have now been repaid to the various people who were owed. That's all debt cleared, which was my first priority.




 and some of us appreciate that greatly 

 i have had a decent sum tied up here and tried to be polite and patient about it (hope i was  ) and many others were owed large sums, these people were patient, i think all those who gave will see a great reward, heck most of them have been getting it long before they contributed


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## Cold Beer

*bump*


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## reapersaurus

romp said:
			
		

> When someone contributes money to an endeavour in a public fashion (i.e. soliciting donations) there should be some accounting as to where that money is going.
> 
> The difference is that no one should assume Morrus has any bad intentions for that money. Morrus has a very good track record for running ENWorld responsibly and well.



OK, I've been very quiet about all this financial and technical maintenance, but I'm VERY glad that many other people feel as I do, and had the courage to speak up about it.

Courage?
Yes, courage - it is not easy to stand up to the very vocal majority that does not like opinions and questions being asked that they don't like.

It is VERY distressing to once again see Morrus being placed on a pedastal like a saint that can do no wrong, and that fair questions are being shouted down, on the disgusting facade of "board harmony", or close to that platitude. 

There are some serious questions here that NEED to be asked, and while I think it's wonderful that many of the members of this board are generous to a fault, I feel that it is high time that Morrus stopped being so reserved and secretive and was more forthcoming about where the money comes from, and where it goes to.

Not because he feels he owes it to the members because they bailed him out, but because being secretive is not a smart, mature way of having a Community, and he feels a responsibility to make each and every member feel good about his custodianship of ENWorld.

For me personally, I have asked him repeatedly to share information thru the years, and unfortunately have not been overly happy with the results.
When Eric was in charge of running the site, I and others asked him questions, and I seem to remember he was adequately forthcoming in his answers.

Now, Eric and many others who know Morrus personally (I do not) seem to be very trusting of Morrus' efforts, so that is a big character testimonial. I don't believe for a second that Morrus has any 'bad intentions' for the money. 
But from where I see it, there are many questions that should be answered that would make me (at least) feel much more comfortable about the way Morrus is running the site.

Whether that's here in this thread, or more properly in a Meta thread, that is Morrus' decision. Heck, it's his decision to even reply at all. I, for one, certainly hope (and frankly, expect) that he would want to communicate his efforts on the site's behalf.


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## Agback

*This thread belongs in META*



			
				romp said:
			
		

> When someone contributes money to an endeavour in a public fashion (i.e. soliciting donations) there should be some accounting as to where that money is going.




I agree that it is very wise for anyone who relies on voluntary contributions to cultivate trust by publishing accounts. I trust Morrus and I bought my community supportership: I don't want to see accounts. But if he publishes accounts he will make more people trust him and may sell more supporterships.

I cannot agree that anyone has the right to give money without mentioning that strings are attached, and then demand anything later. If you're offering a trade on investment, you say so at the time. You don't give a gift and them demand a _quid pro quo_ afterwards.

Finally: anyone who considers that he is an investor in ENworld because he made a belated contribution to its costs in a time of crisis, and is therefore entitled to the rights of a shareholder in a company, is sadly deluded.

Regards,


Agback


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## Wraith Form

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Oh, we are -- Teflon Billy style!  Yee haw!  *shoots pistols in the air like Yosemite Sam*



LOL...good ole T-Billy!  At least we can laugh at (with?) him!


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## Teflon Billy

Wraith Form said:
			
		

> LOL...good ole T-Billy!  At least we can laugh at (with?) him!




At


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## Wraith Form

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> At



(snicker)  Well, *we* knew that.  (I mean, god, have you seen that pic he's sportin'?  Egads!)

At least you know your place..!

(Ha ha ha....naaah, just playin', TB--LUUUUUUUH YA!)


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## Darrin Drader

Tom Cashel said:
			
		

> Not trying to make any point...just saying is all.  I am the "self-appoinetd board cut-up" (according to Darrin), after all.




Pot <---> Kettle

 




But then, I did chip in to keep the site open.


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## alsih2o

to those who want more accountability-

 do you ask for this from your plumber? when you pay a man to fix a toilet do you ask to see his books?

 what about when you go to see a play? do you buy a ticket and then suggest you would feel better if you were given the inside scoop on the management of that theater?

 i could be very wrong, but i see little difference.

 there is a service here. for free! and if you choose to help support it that is great, but that doesn't give anyone the right to any info any more than just perusing the site.

 i just keep thinking of the only thing i know of on the web that is pay-per-view, and that is porn. i wonder if people send in their money to boobie sites and then post saying "i would feel a lot better if i could get a look at the books. after all, i pay for this."


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## Citizen Mane

Morrus said:
			
		

> For goodness' sake, man!  When I tell you about my top-secret supervillain plans, I don't expect you to immediately go and tell everyone!



http://www.villainsupply.com

I'm just saying, is all.  

Best,
tKL


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## Darrin Drader

I'm not saying that I want to know how every dime is spent. The only thing I want to know is that the money will be used to keep the community around as long as possible. That's it. And I accept the assurances of Morrus, Eric, and everyone else.

On the other hand, I might feel that this trust is misplaced if the site is in dire need of funding again in 6 months. If the information we've been given is more or less correct, even after taxes, the server upgrade, the back amount owed and even the debts, there should be enough in the pot now to keep the site going for a year. Hopefully add to that some banner advertisements and an open donation account, and such a dire need for money might not ever arise again.

But we'll see. I look at it as paying for the amount of use I get out of the site. I wouldn't be here if I didn't enjoy the community to some extent, and I will be willing to donate again should the need arise, assuming this fund raising drive is put to good use.


----------



## BSF

Cross-posting from a different thread - http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=67554&page=1&pp=25



			
				BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> OK, reading through another thread, I realized I have used a term that is generally used in one sense, though others are applicable.  The term is:  invest.
> 
> Oftentimes, we hear invest used in reference to investing in a company.  Purchasing a share in the company so that you can receive financial benefit from it.  Usually, shareholders have some measure of control over how the company is then run.
> 
> When I say that I feel like this is an investment, this is *not* what I mean.
> 
> What I mean is that I spend a fair amount of time here, I suck up my share of bandwidth.  And I have been doing that on the generosity of others.  On one level, I have always been conscious of that.  And it is easy to keep saying, “I’ll be a Community Supporter next month.”  It took the unfortunate occurrence of getting it right down to the line before the site is shut down for me to get off my butt and do it.
> 
> It is surprising how little time it took me to make that decision.  I saw Morrus’ announcement, noticed that it has single digit views, opened it up, did some work, read it and just sat there for a few seconds thinking “But, I was going to become a supporter, what happened?”  It took me a few moments to realize that I cared enough to stop sitting on the bench.  By the time I returned to the main thread, there was already a thread posted asking how we could help.  The rest just keeps getting better.  But, back to my point.
> 
> I expect that Morrus will have enough cash flow for the site to sleep easy.  I expect that he will be able to treat this as a hobby and have fun. I do not expect him to tell us everything that he is going to do with the money.
> 
> When I say I want to invest in EN World, I am _trying_ to say that I want to do whatever I can to help avoid getting to this point again in the future.  I want to help out.  I would like to offer ideas so that other people can take them apart and try to find any value in them.  I use these boards a lot and I feel like I can give back to the community a little more than I do already.  _Invest_ is probably not the correct word to use.  Especially since it is emotionally charged in economic terms.  For my word choice, I apologize for any misunderstanding.  But, for my intent, I really do want to know if there is any way that I can help in the future.
> 
> Thanks for hearing me out!


----------



## Wraith Form

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> There are some serious questions here that NEED to be asked, and while I think it's wonderful that many of the members of this board are generous to a fault, I feel that it is high time that Morrus stopped being so reserved and secretive and was more forthcoming about where the money comes from, and where it goes to.



Well, DUUUUUHH, it goes to support his meth habit, of course.

The English have a word for you: you're a *git*.  I'm sure Morrus would be happy to explain not only what that means, but how it's completely appropriate for you.

I mostly lurk around these boards (or make rude and snide posts for no apparent good reason), but I *gave* Morrus my money.  You know what?  I don't ask him to explain a damn thing of what it goes to.  New servers, new hosts, new f*ckin' crack pipe, I don't ask him to break it down for me.  I *gave* him that money, and I don't look back.  The site lives.  I can once again read game product reviews, and save money on the crap ones, and blow money on the good ones.  I never would have given him that money if I didn't have a strong sense that he's trustworthy.

Am I disappointed that he got into financial trouble?  Well, yeah.  But we managed to scrape together to pull his (no, actually: this site's) fat outta the fire.  That's all that ultimately matters.  Morrus knows that, if perchance he did run off to Waikiki with our donations, eventually _truth will out_ and he'll lose a lot of support.  It's in his best interest to be reliable (which--aside from not paying Cyberstreet--he's been so far).


----------



## Angcuru

Don't worry, be happy.   *feels sudden urge to adopt a 3-legged kitten with one bad eye*


----------



## Brown Jenkin

reapersaurus, I'm sorry to hear your complaints about being shouted down. I too have been on the minority side here at times, and have come out against some of the policies of these boards. I have never however had reason to question the motivations of Morris in running this site. When the call for money came I imediately went to the ERP site and donated reasonable amount without thinking and even considered giving until it hurt if needed (fortunately many others thought the same). While I may still disagree with some policies and will likely still be shouted down in some threads I do not regret in the slightest what I did, nor am I worried at all that the money won't be well spent. In this instance I am with the majority and will support whatever Morris chooses to do, but I also support your descision to speak your mind. I hope you and others will continue to to post your thoughts no mater how contrary to the majority they may be, but sometimes we must just learn to accept that we are the minority and not let others goad us into extremisim in defence of our position (I am not accusing you of this, just making a point). I have found that as long as you can make a reasonable point most others will respect you even if dissagreeing with you and those that don't you can likely safely ignore (fighting fire with fire just leaves everthing burned).


----------



## Angcuru

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> (fighting fire with fire just leaves everthing burned).



actually (to go OT) if you're in the middle of a wildfire, the best thing to do is find an open field and star another fire.  the fire will burn away a large section big enough for you to lay down in.  the wildfire will not burn this already burned area, and since you are in it, you will be safe.

so it leaves everything burned, except for you.  

now if you were to say fight drowning with a glass of ice water....


----------



## tburdett

We gave because we enjoy using this resource, for the information provided or for the community, or both.  We gave because we want this place to continue.

I am sure that this knowledge is first and foremost in Morrus' thoughts when he ponders what to do with the windfall that he has received.

Personally, my only hope is that he does what is necessary to keep EN World up and running.  Beyond that, I could not care less what he does with whatever money is left over.


----------



## Umbran

Wraith Form said:
			
		

> Am I disappointed that he got into financial trouble?  Well, yeah.  But we managed to scrape together to pull his (no, actually: this site's) fat outta the fire.




*nod*.  Perhaps there's something to be noted here....

As far as I'm aware, Morrus stopped trying to run this site for profit some time ago.  It stopped being a business.  This was not at all kept secret.  And anyone who has half a brain could realize that if it wasn't being run as a business, there might be financial difficulties, since nobody would be making sure the place pulled it's own weight.  It was fairly clear that community support might be necessary.

So, where were we then?  The ability to financially support the site has been around for a long time.  We (collectively) weren't using it.  When told it was a do-or-die situation, yes, we came out and did what needed to be done.  We pulled our own butts out of the fire.  But we were not foresightful and responsible enough to support ourselves before that.

If we had really been good do-bees, the crisis would never have happened, and there'd ahve been no question of Morrus' accountability.  Before we start worring about holding other folks accountable for their actions, perhaps we need to be a little more sure we're responsible ourselves, hm?


----------



## sawbones

Not to dispute others concerns, but the way I looked at it was this: I pop by everyday for a quick look at the boards and the news, for that my donation paid for what I have already used at Morrus' expense. I plan on throwing a contribution annually at enworld because what Morrus' has offered has been an excellent service.

I think of it as a subscription, Morrus doesn't need to offer me an accounting, as long as the service I'm paying for is worth the money I pay for it, I will gladly support it, if it stops being worth it, then I stop paying. Certainly this service is worth the paltry pennies a day that my donation counted for. It is certainly a better value than a whole lot of other things I buy 

But most of all, I would like to thank Morrus for all his hard work, and I do hope that when he ever needs us again, he won't wait for the last minute.

Grant Kinsley MD


----------



## jdavis

Great Googly Mooglies, don't we have more important stuff to do around here, like bickering about the Ranger class or posting about how there are too many OT threads in general. Just be happy the site is still up and get back to wasting your valuable time discussing D&D, that's what we are all here for right? More witty banter and less buisness plan talk people these threads don't write themselves. 

(For the record I could care less what is done with the money just so long as I hit the link and the site comes up.)


----------



## reapersaurus

Umbran said:
			
		

> As far as I'm aware, Morrus stopped trying to run this site for profit some time ago.  It stopped being a business.  This was not at all kept secret.



I'm glad you bring this up.
I want to post a request to link to that thread wherein he described this, but I don't want to bug Meta with its own thread.

IIRC, some quite-relevant things were said in that thread, and have bearing on some of the questions I'd like to ask.

Wraith Form- I can't respond to you, if I want the thread to continue in the non-personal vein I'd prefer it to.


----------



## reapersaurus

jdavis said:
			
		

> (For the record I could care less what is done with the money just so long as I hit the link and the site comes up.)



If that's the case, than a discussion about the dollars and cents of the site would seem to be prudent.
Since unless the $ is handled well, that link might not work in the future.


----------



## barsoomcore

reaper, I'm (sorta) with you.

And sorta not.

Here's my take: I get a lot out of this site. When it was in trouble, and it became apparent that simply by giving a chunk of change I could help out, I did so. Happily and without concern for what might become of that money.

Unless I have been reading you wrong all this time, I suspect you feel the same way about whatever contribution you may have made. When you say you want Morrus to be a little more forthcoming, or whatever, I think (I hope) you're not saying, "Show me the account books or I want my money back!" I think you're saying, "Maybe things could be handled a little better in the future."

Now you can shout and complain about stuff, you can ask nosy questions, and ultimately one of two things will happen: either your concerns will be addresses sufficiently, or you'll stop hanging out at the site (and stop supporting it, both with your presence and your cash).

Morrus may or may not care about that. Time will tell.

But I totally agree with you that a little more knowledge of what's happening behind the scenes would ease my mind as to the stability of this great, great site. At the same time, I recognize that ENWorld is nothing less than a labour of love, and Morrus is beholden to no-one -- and my donation does not make him beholden to me.

The reason I'd like a little more visibility is NOT because I think my donation earns me the right to it -- I would like more visibility even if I HADN'T given anything. The two issues are not connected.

I'm sorta rambling here so I'll stop. Just wanted to offer a touch of support, there.


----------



## BSF

I would *like* to have a little more info on all of this so I can try to help avoid it happening again.  This site is Morrus' responsibility since his name is on the bills.  But, plenty of people on here ask advice from the community.  Plenty of people receive unsolicited advice when they post regarding something that other people have a possible solution to.  It would have been nice if Morrus could have said something sooner along the lines of "I'm falling behind on payments to Cyberstreet, can we get more Community Supporters or does anyone have any ideas?"  

Don't get me wrong, I am not knocking on Morrus.  It is a big leap to involve a bunch of people that are, essentially, strangers into your bills.  Even if they are bills for a hobby site that those same strangers visit every day.  I'm not sure I would have done anything any differently than he did if I were in his situation.  But, I don't like the thought that he has probably been worrying about this for a while.  I figure that the guy that runs the place should enjoy it as much as I do.


----------



## Alzrius

I think this entire issue of accountability is a bad one. As far as I can see, there is no upside to what people are suggesting about this.

Honestly, people, what does Morrus posting an itemized list of expenditures do? Think about it. We have no say in the administrative policies of this website. That means our ability to spend the site's money (and make no mistake, after we sent it in, it is the site's money, not ours) is nil. We have no input on how the money gets spent, or when, or for what.

This entire accountability issue amounts to one thing: It's a "feel good" tactic. It supposedly makes us feel better because we know where the money is going. But really, it doesn't make any difference. It really doesn't. Whether we have a list of receipts or not, the site will still be displaying news, a large set of message boards, an online shop, etc.

The only substantive effects I can see from this are two things: 1) Morrus gets flooded with mails and messages from people who are upset with his spendings, thinking they know better than what he did or will do. No benefits there. 2) Morrus, who already works damn hard running this site for us, adds yet another thing to do on top of his pile of work...and this one for no good reason. No benefit there either.

You are, ultimately, only accountable to the people who you serve or work for. The people who have power over you. And while I believe this site is for us and about us, its Morrus who is the backbone of it, and while he voluntarily serves us, he does not answer to us. Any idea of fiscal accountability is a bad one.


----------



## Najo

*Two issues really...*

We shouldn't be confusing the two seperate issues here:

1) The money given to help ENworld was a gift. There is no need for accountability. 

but...

2) ENworld should pay for itself and at least be able to provide wages for those who put in full time work on it. 

I personally think the answer is to make it an automated feature to be an ENworld sponsor so we can pay our annual dues easily and get all of the extra features, maybe add some additonal features for paying members as well.

Just my 2 cents.

Nate


----------



## Teflon Billy

I had a big response to this all typed out responding to reapersaurus, but thought the better of it.

The post I had quoted was so rife with hyperbole...



			
				Reapersaurus said:
			
		

> ...It is VERY distressing to once again see Morrus being placed on a pedastal like a saint that can do no wrong, and that fair questions are being shouted down, on the disgusting facade of "board harmony", or close to that platitude. ...




...Cheap ennobling rhetoric...



			
				reapersaurus said:
			
		

> ...Courage?
> Yes, courage - it is not easy to stand up to the very vocal majority that does not like opinions and questions being asked that they don't like...




...And gross misunderstandings of the concepts of general NEED and personal WANT...



			
				reapersaurus said:
			
		

> ...There are some serious questions here that NEED to be asked, and while I think it's wonderful that many of the members of this board are generous to a fault, I feel that it is high time that Morrus stopped being so reserved and secretive and was more forthcoming about where the money comes from, and where it goes to...




...That the post was ballooning into one that, If I saw it, I wouldn't have struggled through 

The one bit I will add before I hit the sack is a comment on the following...



			
				Reapersaurus said:
			
		

> ...For me personally, I have asked him repeatedly to share information thru the years, and unfortunately have not been overly happy with the results...




If I asked once and didn't get the results I was seeking, I would've assumed that the owner of this _private site_ didn't feel his personal financial information was any of my business.

If I asked "repeatedly" with the same results, it would've become easier to piece this little mystery together with each failed attempt.

But f I still didn't understand, maybe I would when it was explained to me in the passive voice on a message board.


----------



## barsoomcore

Alzrius said:
			
		

> As far as I can see, there is no upside to what people are suggesting about this.



I think you ought to be specific as to which people you're talking about. A number of people have asked for quite different things. You seem to be addressing the idea of "accountability" -- which isn't the same as "visibility". If you see what I mean.


> Honestly, people, what does Morrus posting an itemized list of expenditures do?



Not sure that anyone has asked for Morrus to do that. But I agree that it would serve little purpose.


----------



## Alzrius

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> I think you ought to be specific as to which people you're talking about. A number of people have asked for quite different things. You seem to be addressing the idea of "accountability" -- which isn't the same as "visibility". If you see what I mean.




My lack of specificity in my opening statement can't be too bad, since you seem to understand what I'm trying to say.

That said, what people have been discussing is the idea that Morrus should let them know, either ahead of time or after the fact, how he's spending the money on this site. I referred to that as "accountability", but perhaps "visibility" is a better word. Either way, it's what I and others are talking about in this thread.



> _Not sure that anyone has asked for Morrus to do that. But I agree that it would serve little purpose._




It seems to be, IMO, what the pro-accountability people want. They want to know how the money the site has earned this last day will be spent. That can be summed up as a list of things it has been/will be spent on.


----------



## mistergone

I may be stating the obvious here, or missing the mark completely, but I think what is bothering some people is this:

We don't want to see, some time in the future, a notice like we got yesterday (or the day before yesterday, depending on your time zone), which basically said.

"Uh, hey guys, by the way, this whole huge community that everyone loves and participates in every day? Yeah... it's coming down tomorrow. See, it's been in dire straights for the last few months or so, and well, we're all pooched. So, see you around, hopefully, maybe, eventually..."

That was a shock. A huge shock. But then everyone (well, almost everyone) rallied and pulled together and saved the day. Hoo-rah. That's good. But a lot of us (all of us) would have really liked to know that this was happening, this big sudden closing. It could have been prevented. Sure, no one can say for certain it could have been prevented... well, actually, we can, can't we? Because obviously it was saved at the 11th hour. No reason to think it wouldn't have been saved however many months ago. 

So, I think that it's the suddeness, the silence, the not-knowing, that hits people hard. Maybe now they're worried "Well, if we didn't know about that until the last minute, what else won't we know about until the last minute?" 

Sure, it's a privately owned site, and free to all. So no, no one is "accountable". No one has a say in what way any money is spent or really, in however the site is developed, except for the man who owns it. Ideally, the users have some say, in development and content, because they make up the community and their participation makes the site what it is. The only thing I think everyone can agree on is that they want to see the site keep running.

That's all my opinion, though. I could be mistaken. I really have a lot of mixed feelings on this whole drama, but they are thoughts best kept to myself. I like having ENWorld around, that's really all I have to say.


----------



## Steverooo

Morrus said:
			
		

> You'll all probably be interested to hear that some of the money has already been used. Cyberstreet has already been paid $2000, and all ENnies costs from earlier this year have now been repaid to the various people who were owed. That's all debt cleared, which was my first priority.




...and all spent JUST LIKE YOU TYPED YOU WOULD, and all spent just like it SHOULD have been!  Good job, Morrus!    

Now, 'bout that CURRENT server...  Resale values aren't usually worth looking at...  Do "we" even have a back-up server, in case the primary goes down?  If not, can the current one be upgraded to act as a backup?  (There's something the computer techs can help you with!)

And I still think 501(c)3 Not-for-Profit status in the US is a good idea...


----------



## masterofmonks

Even though I do not visit EN World often, and even more rarely post, I have this to say.  I feel that this site performs a vital service to the community, without this site there would be many people that don't have anyone to discuss ideas about games, experiences, or just bounce ideas off of. I feel that it was a wonderful thing that everyone pulled together and bailed the site out of dire straights. But here is the other side of the coin, I would also not like to see the site get that close to failing again. Yes I belive that Morrus needs a business plan, yes I belive that the site is a full time job, yes I belive that he is accountable for the money. I also belive that *we* are not the ones to ask those questions. The community did *give* the money, that means that we should not act like the IRS in this situation. However it does fall on Morrus's shoulders to see to it that the site does not fall into debt again, doesn't mean that we should nitpick him to death about it. The most that we can do is to offer him suggestions when he asks, to support him in his decisions *even* if we may feel that they are the wrong ones, the most that we can do is to say "you know Morrus i don't think that will work all that well". Remember because you donated money doesn't make you the Co-Owner of the site, it doesn't make you an admin, it doesn't give you special privleges. What it does do is to say that you belive in the site, that you belive in what the site does. Nothing more. So again yes there should be a business plan but it is not our right to Press Morrus about it, only offer suggestions when he asks us. I felt it would be good to cover poth sides of this question in a single post, I thank all of you for taking your time to read this.


----------



## DaveMage

I see EN World as a very fun place to visit. 

I viewed my contribution kind of like a ticket to a show.  I pay my money, I get to enjoy the community (which I know is a good one), but I don't really care to know what goes on behind the scenes. 

If I ever felt that the product (E.N. World) declined to the point of having far less value, I would not contribute the next time, and that will be that -- just like with any form of entertainment that no longer interests me.

I mean, really, the money I contributed was a pittance in the grand scheme of my financial life.  

There's certainly nothing wrong with asking to know how the site is run, but if you don't like the answer, or lack thereof, then I believe you should either accept it and stick around, or depart.  No sense in getting upset over it since the only one who really suffers in that instance is you (and those you choose to share your anger with - no fun in that!).

HOWEVER, a potential advantage of sharing how the site is run may allow others to offer helpful suggestions which could enhance the site even more.


----------



## Guillaume

My wife and I (Julie on these boards) gave 50$ yesterday.  This amount is by no means nothing to our student budget.  However, it was given because we use the site almost daily.  I run a PbP here.  ENWorld is a constant source of information about D&D and d20 in general.

That being said, the money was given out of genereosity.  This being the internet, did we expect anything in return ? Not exactly, the only thing we expected was that the site would stay open for a few more days.  The choice of the word days is not made innocently.  I truely expected the site to be closed down and me having to find a new home form my PbP.  The money we sent in was to stave of that search.  It was also a payment of sorts for all the past use, a payment after the fact if you will.

Is there any expectations from Morrus attached ? Not really.  I think that a website like this one, that is run on a desire to provide a place for a wonderful community and done so out of the goodness of the heart should be recognised as such.  Accounting and business planning, although essential and good for ensuring continuity, are in the perogative of the owner not the user.  As was said earlier, when you buy a ticket to a theater, you can expect service, a movie, or a show.  You have no say in the way the book are kept, the money is spent, or the quality of the show you watch.  If something displeases you, you may inform the apporpriate person, you may decide never to return, you may even decide to buy your entretainment from a competing theater.  But in no way are you entitle to any of the management decisions.

What has happened in the past two days is wonderful.  We, as a community, aggreed to reimburse the debts of a «lonely guy in his basement» because he provided us with the medium which allowed the community to exist.  Granted more money than need was given, but we can only trust that Morrus will do the best he can with it.  If he decides to publish a «business plan» or publish an account of the money, more power to him.  However, it certainly will not be because my wife and I asked for it, but because he wanted to do it.

See you all around,


----------



## EricNoah

Folks, personal attacks (i.e. the "git" comment) are completely out of line here. 

Also, I'm going to start moving our posts that are "about EN World" over to Meta so General can get back to discussing RPGs.


----------



## diaglo

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> Dude, it's a _donation_.
> 
> You want assurances, go buy some stock in something with a board of directors.  Like Enron.





hey one of the guys i used to game with worked for the accounting firm A.Andersen.

he was making trips back and forth to Houston from Atlanta on a regular basis.

i think he would say that is sound....oh nevermind.


----------



## EricNoah

I don't think that it is unreasonable to maybe want a "state of EN World" address every now and then.  I think Russ now sees that if he asks for resources he can get them when he needs them (that may have been in question in his mind -- I know both he and I thought raising the $1600 would be impossible even if we had a week; plus who likes begging for money, hat in hand?  That's no fun even if it is necessary.)  So I think certainly there's been a lesson learned that being more open about upcoming financial problems would be helpful.  Is this basically what folks are asking for?


----------



## Guillaume

EricNoah said:
			
		

> I don't think that it is unreasonable to maybe want a "state of EN World" address every now and then.  I think Russ now sees that if he asks for resources he can get them when he needs them (that may have been in question in his mind -- I know both he and I thought raising the $1600 would be impossible even if we had a week; plus who likes begging for money, hat in hand?  That's no fun even if it is necessary.)  So I think certainly there's been a lesson learned that being more open about upcoming financial problems would be helpful.  Is this basically what folks are asking for?




Personnaly, I do think that being more forthcoming about financial problems would be helpful.  However, I must restate that I have no *expectations* to this.  I *gave* my money to Morrus, what he does with it is his business.  *If* he wants help on a regular basis, however, averting crisies and giving people notice might be a good idea.


----------



## Da Man

Unfortunately, En World cannot continue at this rate.

$400 per month?!

Good lord. 

I would be interested in knowing how much Revenues this site generates.

It is very short-sighted (and, I must say, astoundingly irresponsible) to simply live on a shoe string budget without paying your bills.

What were the projections that failed?

In month 1, when you could not pay the bills, where did you think you were going to make it up? Where was the windfall coming from?

Without resorting to derision, I can only say that before any responsible person would give money to this thing, a detailed menu of what was going to change would be in order. How is it going to be managed differently? yada yada


----------



## herald

Just because someone asks if there is a business plan doesn't mean that after they see the plan that they will suddenly want their money back. And I think that the accountablity issue sort of swings on one word.

Community.

This word means so many things to so many people. So people just enjoy thier communities by simply being a part of them. Nothing wrong with that. Some people like to invest more. Buy knowing a business plan, some people can try and accomidate by timing donations or attention at a time when it is easy of the user and good for the community. 

To a certain degree Morris did put out a plan, I need x amount of $ and I will pay off my debits to the internet provider that runs this site. He told us what he needed and then we responded. Luckily he ran into a surplus of funding and is now is in the good fortune of making our lives easier by purchacing a upgraded server. If he makes the right purchace, (and he has plenty of experianced people around here to ask) all of use will have a much better experiance here. Win-Win situation. 

Safe to say though some people will want to know what about 6 months from now. Well, who can tell. But it woundn't be to bad for some people to start thinking about it. Perhaps there is some kind of service or good that we can buy from Morris above and beyond a Community Supporter membership? Perhaps Cafe Press T-shirts or coffee mugs or whatever. The point is that this is... No one wants Morris to suffer running this site, and no one wants it taken away from him. With a little insite, people can be proactive about help instead of reactive. 

With a business plan people can all know that were rowing in the same direction. 

Sorry about the spelling, I'm in a rush.


----------



## Michael Morris

just__al said:
			
		

> *Thank you Morris and all the members of this community who collectively conspire to decrease my non-gaming productivity.*




It's "Morrus" .... ***I'M*** Morris.


----------



## Mark

I thought we were collecting a stipend to compensate Morrus for his last two years of (more than) full-time devotion to the site and just hoping he might throw some of it back into keeping it going longer.


----------



## diaglo

Mark said:
			
		

> I thought we were collecting a stipend to compensate Morrus for his last two years of (more than) full-time devotion to the site and just hoping he might throw some of it back into keeping it going longer.




nah, he already announced he was dropping us back off on the corner like some three dollar....


----------



## KidCthulhu

EricNoah said:
			
		

> So I think certainly there's been a lesson learned that being more open about upcoming financial problems would be helpful.  Is this basically what folks are asking for?




Yes, I think that sums it up nicely, Eric.  I would like to see some sort of plan outlined, mostly because as a list maker and organizer, I find that the process of making a plan amazingly valuable.  It makes you prioritize and understand your goals, gets you a list of the things you need to know and obtain, and helps you understand where you're going.

Russ may have already done this.  If so, bravo.  I recommend the plan, not because I want him to account for every penny to me, but because a plan is such a valuable thing.

 I sing with a chorus.  We are a non-profit, with a board and an artistic director who make most of the day to day running decisions.  But the chorus members are one of the largest source of chorus funding, in dues and annual giving.  Once a year, we have a meeting, to present the budget, discuss the upcoming year, plans, possible pitfalls, etc.  The membership votes to accept the budget, etc.  While I'm not sure we want ENworld voting on thing (just for the hassle factor), this is a good example of a community who receives information about their direction.


----------



## TiQuinn

First of all, I'm not going to say that I expect anything.

I donated some money to help keep my favorite website around.  Period.  If it goes the way of the dodo, I'll be bummed.  However, I'm not expecting full accountability now that I've chipped in.  I give my money to a lot of places, businesses, etc., and there's always the chance that they won't be around at some point.

That said, I'm surprised that ENWorld doesn't cover it's own bills as a non-profit.  I'm surprised that it isn't run for profit.  From my standpoint, it's the most recognizable RPG website outside of Wizards of the Coast.  That maybe pretty far from the actual case.  It's just my perception.

I expect server and hosting fees to be an issue for any website/message board.  If you can't cover these costs, then there's not much of a reason to continue unless you have the money to continue it out of your own pocket.

But it's a bit weird to hear that things like Morrus is behind on paying people back for the ENnies, or that ENworld doesn't generate much revenues.

Hey....If ENWorld can't pay for itself, then no one has any business putting on award shows with cute little statues.  

Frankly, I wouldn't have heard of half of the d20 products/publishers out there if it weren't for ENWorld.  THAT has to be worth something.

If ENWorld can't pay for itself, then someone is getting a REALLY sweet deal, and it isn't Morrus.  I'm getting a free website and message board with some great discussion, information, reviews, and ideas.  Publishers are getting some awesome publicity.  It's tough to fathom that it can't cover its own costs.

I don't know...when I look at it afterwards the whole thing doesn't make sense to me.


----------



## Morrus

Da Man said:
			
		

> In month 1, when you could not pay the bills, where did you think you were going to make it up? Where was the windfall coming from?



Easy. As mentioned, I believed I would have a full time job in short order and was willing to cover the cost of running th site out of my own pocket. Unfortunately, things didn't work out as I had expected.

Now things are different. I did not expect to raise so much money and so, naturally, I hadn't planned in advance on doing so; I'm just taken aback by this sudden turnaround in events. As yet, there is no specific plan for the money because I want to take the time to make sure I use it as best possible. Right now I don't know what that is, but I'm confident that, given the breathing space we have now that Cyberstreet has been paid $2000, there is time to think about it, not rush any decisions, get advice etc., and come up with something good. But it ain't gonna happen quickly, and it ain't gonna be rushed!

Right now, I have a hundred people offering me different, often conflicting advice.  I'm being flooded with emails from people who can't understand why a $20 per month hosting plan on a shared server somewhere isn't appropriate for this site, and who think that $400 per month is a really bad deal. 

So, folks - right now _there is no plan!_   Right now, there's just a very shocked Morrus who needs some time and space to think about things.


----------



## BSF

EricNoah said:
			
		

> I don't think that it is unreasonable to maybe want a "state of EN World" address every now and then.  I think Russ now sees that if he asks for resources he can get them when he needs them (that may have been in question in his mind -- I know both he and I thought raising the $1600 would be impossible even if we had a week; plus who likes begging for money, hat in hand?  That's no fun even if it is necessary.)  So I think certainly there's been a lesson learned that being more open about upcoming financial problems would be helpful.  Is this basically what folks are asking for?




What I _really_ want is to know that Morrus is enjoying EN World as much as the rest of us.  I don't want him to have to worry about where the bills are being paid for the site and how it is going to affect his personal life.  He should be prudent and responsible about it without the gut eating worry.  

Any ideas that move toward that are good.  A "State of EN World" Address may help in that regard.


----------



## Dimwhit

> Easy. As mentioned, I believed I would have a full time job in short order and was willing to cover the cost of running th site out of my own pocket. Unfortunately, things didn't work out as I had expected.



And you shouldn't have to cover the costs out of your own pocket. Either the site generates enough money through ads and such, or we pony up and pitch in. You shouldn't be paying thousands of dollars a year for the site. Nice of you to be willing, though.


----------



## Mark

Maybe a forum could be set up where the folks helping Morrus and the admins can do what they have to do, those who donate could have read-only access and send in an email if they have suggestions (to avoid a lot of side-tracking and clutter) and if someone wants to properly join the team they can send in their resume for consideration.


----------



## Henry

TiQuinn said:
			
		

> If ENWorld can't pay for itself, then someone is getting a REALLY sweet deal, and it isn't Morrus.  I'm getting a free website and message board with some great discussion, information, reviews, and ideas.  Publishers are getting some awesome publicity.  It's tough to fathom that it can't cover its own costs.
> 
> I don't know...when I look at it afterwards the whole thing doesn't make sense to me.




I'm not privy to any special ENWorld financial info (depsite the fact that some people may think the mod's are), but I'll share my perspective from the outside a moment:

ENWorld generates funding in three ways:

1) Community Supporter Accounts. Those weren't selling well the past few months, to my knowledge - the ones that were selling were a trickle, if my observation of new people with the words "community supporter" or having a custom title were any judge.

2) Banner ads. Many Dot-coms of the 90's went BROKE placing their faith in Banner ads. They weren't selling but for short runs - you don't see many long-running banner ads up at the top, do you?

3) EN Publishing. Any PDF publisher can tell you it's not something you do as a way to get rich. I don't know the finances, but judging from RPGNow and RPGShop top sellers, it doesn't look like a runaway sales hit, either.

Add to that leaner times in early 2003, the fact that the business model changed from "full-time" to Hobby only a few months ago, and ventures like the ENWorld Player's Journal that have not shown a serious profit (according to some statements from Ryan Nock about changing the publication), and you have a business that Morrus has been self-supporting (I'm assuming through previous savings, or a series of bank or personal loans; that ain't my business). Meanwhile, ENWorld is a resource available for free to anyone who wishes to use it.

What's my point? Don't have one, really, other than to say that  Russ shoulders an awful lot that he shouldn't have to, because like TiQuinn said, Russ ain't the one getting the sweet end of this deal lately. The intake is going to have to change to break even, somehow, and I've seen a lot of good ideas being thrown around (Mistwell was among the first I've seen laying the groundwork for discussion), and a lot of community members with professional experience volunteering their time and advice to help see the community never has to shut down.

Russ is going to have a plan, he's already stated he's going to take some careful thought on the next move, and I for one am letting him know I'm here to bounce ideas off of, and giving him plenty of room to move. That's all.


----------



## BSF

Morrus said:
			
		

> Easy. As mentioned, I believed I would have a full time job in short order and was willing to cover the cost of running th site out of my own pocket. Unfortunately, things didn't work out as I had expected.
> Now things are different.  I did not expect to raise so much money and so, naturally, I hadn't planned in advance on doing so; I'm just taken aback by this sudden turnaround in events.  As yet, there is no specific plan for the money because I want to take the time to make sure I use it as best possible.  Right now I don't know what that is, but I'm confident that, given the breathing space we have now that Cyberstreet has been paid $2000, there is time to think about it, not rush any decisions, get advice etc., and come up with something good.  But it ain't gonna happen quickly, and it ain't gonna be rushed!





Morrus, I really appreciate that you want to run the site out of your own pocket.  I'm just not sure that is the best long-term plan.  This has become a community and I think it is time for the community to take a little more active notice of what it takes to run the show.  That's probably why I think an annual or bi-annual fund drive is a good idea.  It serves to remind everyone that this place doesn't just stay running by itself.  And, as I have said, (probably many times in the last day or so) I don't like the thought that you have to worry about this.  Worry and stress do terrible things to the body and mind.  

I know you will make informed decisions.  I know that everything will work out for a while.  I just want to help to continue making it work out for a long time to come.


----------



## EricNoah

Another option for a hobby site -- which this is now, it's no longer really a business site -- is to become part of a big network, like I did with RPGPlanet.com.  Benefits are that you aren't paying for stuff out of your pocket.  Drawback is you're running other people's ads for them, and as we saw there were limits to "how much" of their server we were allowed to hog with our popular forums.  (They would literally just shut them off from time to time.)  If donations don't support the site, then maybe there is a group out there willing to shoulder the burden (and reap any potential benefits).


----------



## Dimwhit

> I'm not privy to any special ENWorld financial info (depsite the fact that some people may think the mod's are), but I'll share my perspective from the outside a moment:
> 
> ENWorld generates funding in three ways:
> 
> 1) Community Supporter Accounts. Those weren't selling well the past few months, to my knowledge - the ones that were selling were a trickle, if my observation of new people with the words "community supporter" or having a custom title were any judge.
> 
> 2) Banner ads. Many Dot-coms of the 90's went BROKE placing their faith in Banner ads. They weren't selling but for short runs - you don't see many long-running banner ads up at the top, do you?
> 
> 3) EN Publishing. Any PDF publisher can tell you it's not something you do as a way to get rich. I don't know the finances, but judging from RPGNow and RPGShop top sellers, it doesn't look like a runaway sales hit, either.
> 
> Add to that leaner times in early 2003, the fact that the business model changed from "full-time" to Hobby only a few months ago, and ventures like the ENWorld Player's Journal that have not shown a serious profit (according to some statements from Ryan Nock about changing the publication), and you have a business that Morrus has been self-supporting (I'm assuming through previous savings, or a series of bank or personal loans; that ain't my business). Meanwhile, ENWorld is a resource available for free to anyone who wishes to use it.
> 
> What's my point? Don't have one, really, other than to say that Russ shoulders an awful lot that he shouldn't have to, because like TiQuinn said, Russ ain't the one getting the sweet end of this deal lately. The intake is going to have to change to break even, somehow, and I've seen a lot of good ideas being thrown around (Mistwell was among the first I've seen laying the groundwork for discussion), and a lot of community members with professional experience volunteering their time and advice to help see the community never has to shut down.
> 
> Russ is going to have a plan, he's already stated he's going to take some careful thought on the next move, and I for one am letting him know I'm here to bounce ideas off of, and giving him plenty of room to move. That's all.



Good points, all.

I still stand by my original suggestion (which since then, a lot of people have wanted to do) of having an annual pledge drive or something. We could EASILY raise enough money to pay hosting fees and other miscellaneous fees for an entire year doing that. At $400/month, we'd be looking at just shy of $5000. I don't know how much the other expenses are (like the Ennies and such). But with planning and products available for various bid threshholds, raising the money annually would be cake. If we can get 16k in a day with no advanced notice, we can do a third of that with planning and products available.

Anyway, I'll stop. It's Morrus' site. Let's let him figure out what he wants to do. I think he knows by now that if he wants/needs help, he has only to ask.


----------



## Michael Morris

Remain calm.... Breath...

Beyond all things I hate someone who _donates_ and then thinks they are entitled.  This site, this endevour, this community, costs money.  Money to this end is appreciated.  Strings attached are *not.*

I won't say I wasn't fustrated when I learned that Russ had let himself get $1600 behind in the bills.  Having been in similar circumstances, let me say that these things never happen intentionally and they tend to snowball.  But *demanding* that some form of accounting be set up to deal with this problem is rude and lacking in tact.

There does need to be accounting on this - but not because Russ can't be trusted as you - ahem - gentlemen have implied.  Rather, when money changes hands, governments want a cut.  jbrowning has already pointed this out and apparently he has a relative who is a qualified professional in these matters.

I have recommended to Russ directly that he should set ENWorld up seperate from himself - not because I don't trust him but because should ENWorld go belly up for any reason I don't want Russ' personal finances and credit to be dragged into it.  He has worked too hard for this.

If Russ wishes to "open the books" or involve others in making budget decisions, I think it would be a wonderful idea.  But I *don't* think he should pressured to do this at the point of a bayonet.

Now, I have more to say on this matter, but it isn't Granny safe.


----------



## Umbran

mistergone said:
			
		

> That was a shock. A huge shock. But then everyone (well, almost everyone) rallied and pulled together and saved the day. Hoo-rah. That's good. But a lot of us (all of us) would have really liked to know that this was happening, this big sudden closing. It could have been prevented. Sure, no one can say for certain it could have been prevented... well, actually, we can, can't we? Because obviously it was saved at the 11th hour. No reason to think it wouldn't have been saved however many months ago.




Actually, I think the fact that this happened shows that it might not have been saved if it wasn't 11th hour.  There's been a way to donate to the site all along, and people weren't using it enough.  

Humans are motivated by extremity.  After a major disaster, blood donations skyrocket.  But without that disaster, the Red Cross generally operates on a shoestring.  Catastrophe will draw folks out of the woodwork in ways that lesser concern simply won't.  

I can see a darned good reason to avoid budgetary visibility around here.  Like it or not, we have a bunch of brash, second-guessing know-it-alls here, people who can't seem to give advice instead of making demands.  Dealing with them would be a headache I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.  If Morrus says he's gonna buy a new server, or new software, or choose a particular service provider, he'll get a dozen people griping about his specific choices, because obviously anyone who isn't an idiot would choose their particular favorite.  But the particular favorites will all be different.  How does anyone win there?


----------



## EricNoah

Folks, a reminder:  I think this is now my third warning about personal attacks.  Please refrain from calling others out, etc.  There's no call for that.  Everyone wants the best for EN World and even though we may have different opinions on how to achieve that, it doesn't make those you disagree with your enemy.


----------



## Dimwhit

> Originally Posted by *EricNoah*
> Please refrain from calling others out, etc.



That's it, Eric. I'm calling you out. After school, in the tanbark area! 

You all had a tanbark area at your school, right?

(I'd worry about hijacking this thread, but I think it's time for it to die anyway...)


----------



## herald

Michael_Morris said:
			
		

> Remain calm.... Breath...
> 
> Beyond all things I hate someone who _donates_ and then thinks they are entitled.  This site, this endevour, this community, costs money.  Money to this end is appreciated.  Strings attached are *not.*
> 
> I won't say I wasn't fustrated when I learned that Russ had let himself get $1600 behind in the bills.  Having been in similar circumstances, let me say that these things never happen intentionally and they tend to snowball.  But *demanding* that some form of accounting be set up to deal with this problem is rude and lacking in tact.
> 
> There does need to be accounting on this - but not because Russ can't be trusted as you - ahem - gentlemen have implied.  Rather, when money changes hands, governments want a cut.  jbrowning has already pointed this out and apparently he has a relative who is a qualified professional in these matters.
> 
> I have recommended to Russ directly that he should set ENWorld up seperate from himself - not because I don't trust him but because should ENWorld go belly up for any reason I don't want Russ' personal finances and credit to be dragged into it.  He has worked too hard for this.
> 
> If Russ wishes to "open the books" or involve others in making budget decisions, I think it would be a wonderful idea.  But I *don't* think he should pressured to do this at the point of a bayonet.
> 
> Now, I have more to say on this matter, but it isn't Granny safe.




WOW, have you taken things out of context! No one is threating anyone.


----------



## Michael Morris

herald said:
			
		

> WOW, have you taken things out of context! No one is threating anyone.




Two paragraphs were editted out by Eric and the rest of the message is out of context.  I am specifically addressing two individuals who, in my opinion, are a constant thorn in the community's side.  How the mods abstain from banning them both eludes me.  I won't say anything more on the subject.


----------



## herald

Michael_Morris said:
			
		

> Two paragraphs were editted out by Eric and the rest of the message is out of context.  I am specifically addressing two individuals who, in my opinion, are a constant thorn in the community's side.  How the mods abstain from banning them both eludes me.  I won't say anything more on the subject.




Point taken. No harm, no foul.


----------



## 2d6

I take alot from this site and contribute a small amount of personal experience and an occastional humorous (or not) comment. When Morrus said the lights were gonna go out I was amazed at how people openned thier pockets to help out. Nobody really asked, and I don't think anybody expected much at first. 

Well now that the money has been raised, it's kinda in poor taste to start questioning how it's to be used. I think it's fair to ask that Morrus pay up his ENworld bills (and he has),  and it would probably be a good idea to secure comparable hosting for the site for a year ( I think that's what most people expect). Beyond that it's up too him what he does with the money.  There was a  time to inquire about how the money was going to be used and that was before you hit submit. Now that it's done, it seems kinda sad to question his integraty, you trusted him enough to send him money, now let him be a good steward and do what's best for the site. 

I'm certain that he is fully aware of the expertise of many of the members here and if anything has shown that people are willing to help him out, it was the actions of those over the past couple of days. 

As far as I'm concerned I want the site to stay the same. Let Morrus tell us when the lights are about to got out and I imagine that those who value the site will donate again. 

In the end, I'm for giving Morrus a little breathing room, and some time to decide how he wants to proceed.


----------



## Vocenoctum

Michael_Morris said:
			
		

> There does need to be accounting on this - but not because Russ can't be trusted as you - ahem - gentlemen have implied.  Rather, when money changes hands, governments want a cut.  jbrowning has already pointed this out and apparently he has a relative who is a qualified professional in these matters.



I agree, but I think you're really overstating. (Keeping in mind any edits I can't see. 
I don't hang at Dumpshock anymore, because though I love Shadowrun, it's too cliqueish. It's run like the admin are nobility, and it's tiring.

I have nothing against Morrus, but I really hate seeing people that ask for a sign that it won't reach the eleventh hour again, get flamed and their ethics and generosity called into question.

A lot of these people donated good amounts of money, it does no good for the community they supported to attack them when they question the leadership.



> If Russ wishes to "open the books" or involve others in making budget decisions, I think it would be a wonderful idea.  But I *don't* think he should pressured to do this at the point of a bayonet.
> 
> Now, I have more to say on this matter, but it isn't Granny safe.




To continue, I think you folks are a little overzealous in your defense of Morrus. For starters, he doesn't really need it.
There is no Bayonet. There can't be.
The most they can do is not donate anymore. They can't storm the building and sieze the servers. There's no reason for UnGrannyLike behavior because there's nothing to counter, IMO.

A simple "we trust Morrus, you should too." Is good enough counter for most, the strongest words really should be "if you can't trust, then don't donate, and perhaps this is the wrong site for you."

But asking for information on what the future holds shouldn't really solicitate attacks.

This isn't personally directed to Michael Morris specifically, it's just that I've seen too many forums get so cliqueish that they're not worth going to. This site is more heavily moderated than others, but it hasn't been bad enough to shut people out before. I hope it doesn't go that way.


----------



## mistergone

Umbran said:
			
		

> Actually, I think the fact that this happened shows that it might not have been saved if it wasn't 11th hour.  There's been a way to donate to the site all along, and people weren't using it enough.




All I was saying is if people had been given a head's up that the site was in financial straights, I am almost positive they would have gladly given the money needed to bail it out. I mean, they paid his way to Origins (or GenCon)! He's a rock-star. He could at this point say "Hey all, I'd really fancy a new car." and there's a good chance people would send in money to buy ol' Morrie a new ride.  




edit: _tags, close the tags!_


----------



## jdavis

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> If that's the case, than a discussion about the dollars and cents of the site would seem to be prudent.
> Since unless the $ is handled well, that link might not work in the future.



a discussion about how the community can help yes, a discussion about how to spend somebody else's money no don't need that. 

So if EN World needs a Industrial Hygienist or a Occupational Safety Engineer they may feel free to contact me other than that I did what I could to help, I gave some cash. I have no say in how the money is spent, _it's not my money and it's not my site_. Furthermore I in no way want Morrus's job, I am in no way qualified for it, heck I don't even want to know how he does it, I'm just happy that he does. If he works black magic or contacts the Russian mafia or hires Jerry Louis to do a telethon it's not my concern, just as long as I hit the link and the site comes up I will be happy.

There is no accountability here because there was no accountability built in before the money was given, it's now his money to do with as he sees fit. You want visibility well I've seen half a dozen post telling everyone what is going on here, you already have that and had it before this thread was even started. So isn't this now a moot point? Don't we all have less important D&D related post to be making? 

Serious though you ever need a fume hood designed or some ergonomic factory tools or even a confined space entry program give me a call.


----------



## jdavis

mistergone said:
			
		

> All I was saying is if people had been given a head's up that the site was in financial straights, I am almost positive they would have gladly given the money needed to bail it out. I mean, they paid his way to Origins (or GenCon)! He's a rock-star. He could at this point say "Hey all, I'd really fancy a new car." and there's a good chance people would send in money to buy ol' Morrie a new ride.



I didn't know he was a rock star too! Maybe he can put out a greatest hits album, I'll buy one. Hey Morrus I guess the big questions on everybody's mind now are "can you get me backstage passes for your next concert?" and "do you know Carson Daily?"


----------



## JeffB

Amazing what large sums of money bring out in people   

FWIW , I trust ya Russ!   


And if ya wann buy a  few beers w/ the money I sent, that's fine too. You've done a hell of alot for us..beers are on me


----------



## Utrecht

EricNoah said:
			
		

> I don't think that it is unreasonable to maybe want a "state of EN World" address every now and then.  I think Russ now sees that if he asks for resources he can get them when he needs them (that may have been in question in his mind -- I know both he and I thought raising the $1600 would be impossible even if we had a week; plus who likes begging for money, hat in hand?  That's no fun even if it is necessary.)  So I think certainly there's been a lesson learned that being more open about upcoming financial problems would be helpful.  Is this basically what folks are asking for?




In short yes - this would satisfy me.


----------



## Mark Chance

I asked myself the same question as the OP. It's the same question I ask myself when I _give_ money to one of the many homeless people around my neighborhood. What guarantees do I have that my _gift_ will not be squandered?

Answer: None.

Next question: Do I care?

Answer: Nope. If the unthinkable should happen, and my _gift_ to ENWorld be wasted on Things Not Appropriate, that is not my cross to bear.

I did what was right, and that is enough.


----------



## Silver Moon

Good summary Teflon.   A gift is a gift - no strings attached.   

My favorite movie of all times is "It's a Wonderful Life", and I loved the analogy made during the drive to that film, and the photos posted (baby Teflon was the best).   You'll recall at the end of that film, AFTER everyone in town has given what they can George receives the telegram from his old friend offering several times the amount he needs to cover the debt.   Nobody asked for their money back or asked how it would be spent.  They trusted their friend.    And we should all trust that Morrus will use the donations wisely.


----------



## barsoomcore

Mark Chance said:
			
		

> I did what was right, and that is enough.



 Yer darn tootin'. And if that's not enough for some of ya, ya shouldn't'a done it inna first place.

It seems like two issues keep getting confused in this thread.

The first issue is: "I gave money so now I get a say in what happens." This is, to my mind, indefensible. No contract was offered, no guarantees were made -- heck, Morrus didn't even ASK us to do this in the first place. He just told us he could no longer afford to keep the site running. We're the crazy ones running around with our wallets hanging out.

So if you gave money under the same conditions I did, you don't therefore get a say in anything.

The second issue is: "I'd like to have a little bit more notice next time the site is starting to get into trouble." COMPLETELY separate issue. One that has lots of solutions and I'm sure the recent crisis will galvanize the band of egotistical, know-it-all chatterboxes who populate this site (God bless us, every one) into finding ways to maintain this great community we've built here.

The second issue requires lots of thinking, lots of discussion and will never be completely resolved, I'm sure. It's the basic problem of "How do we run this site?" The first issue is a closed one, to me.


----------



## PA

jgbrowning said:
			
		

> People, it's a gift. If Morrus trusts me enough to let me sit on 10k that you all gave to him, you should trust Morrus do what he needs to do to the best of his ability. When you give money to help a friend, don't expect an accounting of how all of it's going to be spent. When he went to Gen Con, no one asked to see an accounting of his expenses there...
> 
> I know it's a lot of money. That shouldn't matter except to make everyone proud for being part of a great community. I've (and I'm sure others like Eric and Morrus) have been working pretty hard for the past two days to keep things up and going. Talk like this gets our spirits down and loses sight of why we did this to begin with: to preserve what we had already, not to demand more.




Call me a jerk, but I don't think we gave anything to Morrus as an individual. We gave our money to our little community. All for one and one for all, and all that stuff. And I'm sorry, but the fact that Morrus trusts you doesn't mean that we must trust him.

Now I do trust him, but for other reasons: namely, the time he's spent to develop ENworld. I don't believe his judgement to be perfect, but then I do believe he knows more on the subject than I do, and I have faith in his dedication. He also stated that he would take advice on how to use the money, which is always a wise decision. For what it's worth, my 2 cents would be: I hope that most of the money is kept to keep ENworld alive, rather than to "improve" it. It may look like a lot of money now, but it will melt faster than you may expect.

I won't cry if I'm not listened to, though. And as you see, I sure don't demand _more_. On the contrary, I agree we must preserve what we have already.


----------



## PA

jgbrowning said:
			
		

> Knowing him, he'll probably find it hard to use any of it for anything _besides_ something directly related to the site, but I'd love it if he did take the missus out for a nice date and maybe a weekend trip. He's put a lot of effort into this site; I think he deserves it.




He certainly does, but the fund raising was done for another reason. We do have a right to expect this reason to be respected. When I gave money to the September 11 relief fund, I expected the money to be used to help the September 11 victims. When I gave money to keep ENworld alive, I expect the money to be used for that purpose. That's all.

(*Important:* Morrus never ever said otherwise. My answer is to jgbrowning only, regarding a general point of ethic; it is not an accusation in any way!! I have said it already and I can repeat it here: I have faith in Morrus, in his proven dedication to keeping ENworld alive and thriving.)


----------



## PA

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> The first issue is: "I gave money so now I get a say in what happens." This is, to my mind, indefensible.




Actually, it is. We gave money to save ENworld, so we can expect the money to be used for that purpose.

As for the means, they are Morrus's to choose.


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## PA

Mark Chance said:
			
		

> I asked myself the same question as the OP. It's the same question I ask myself when I _give_ money to one of the many homeless people around my neighborhood. What guarantees do I have that my _gift_ will not be squandered?
> 
> Answer: None.
> 
> Next question: Do I care?
> 
> Answer: Nope.




There is a difference between giving to one of the homeless (which, as it stands, I don't do) and giving to an organization that helps the homeless. Personally, I do very much care about what the money I give to charity is used for; I carefully choose the organization. If I give for the homeless, then I do care about the money being used to help the homeless, not for any other purpose, even a noble one.

I didn't give money to Morrus for his little Christmas; I gave money to keep ENworld alive--and, if I must repeat it again: yes, I do trust Morrus to use it for that purpose; my problem is not at all with Morrus but with people who say that we have no say about the money we gave: we do. It was not a gift, it was an answer to fundraising. We have no say about the means but we do have about the purpose.


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## PA

Morrus said:
			
		

> Now things are different. I did not expect to raise so much money and so, naturally, I hadn't planned in advance on doing so; I'm just taken aback by this sudden turnaround in events. As yet, there is no specific plan for the money because I want to take the time to make sure I use it as best possible. Right now I don't know what that is, but I'm confident that, given the breathing space we have now that Cyberstreet has been paid $2000, there is time to think about it, not rush any decisions, get advice etc., and come up with something good. But it ain't gonna happen quickly, and it ain't gonna be rushed!




*Amen!*


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## Dimwhit

> Actually, it is. We gave money to save ENworld, so we can expect the money to be used for that purpose.




Not to start an argument or anything...but I didn't give money to ENWorld. I gave money to Morrus.

Personally, I hope he takes the wife (he's married, right?) out for a nice weekend with a few hundred dollars. He probably won't, but I hope he does.


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## Eosin the Red

/scratches head stupified?


I did want to call Eric out. How could I resist?

Morrus and co have run ENworld for several years now, I gave cause I like what they have done and wish them to continue. That takes money. Here have some. Do what you been doing and anything else that needs doing in your opinion.


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## PA

Dimwhit said:
			
		

> Not to start an argument or anything...but I didn't give money to ENWorld. I gave money to Morrus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, here is what I paid for:
> 
> EN_World_Support
> Code:     EN_World
> Price:    20.00
> Quantity: 1
> Subtotal: 20.00
Click to expand...


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## Darrin Drader

Dang PA, I haven't seen you this active on these boards since Gary Gygax was making his daily visits.

So a few years ago my wife had a job where she was making bank and I wasn't doing too bad myself. On two separate occasions we paid out over $1,000 to bail out people we cared for. In one case things ended well enough. This person was a friend of my wife's and she ended up pulling her life together. In the other case, things didn't end up so well. In neither case did we put conditions on the money we were using, nor did we call it a loan or demand that we get it back. We spent it to help people that we cared about. I don't see this as being a whole lot different, except that rather than personally spending a grand or two, it was only $50 out of my pocket. Frankly, I can think of worse ways to spend that amount of money, and I don't feel bad doing it, even if it is just to pay Morrus back for the good times I've already had here on someone else's dime.

I think Morrus's stated plan is sound, and I look forward to seeing what comes of it. Hopefully this bail out will be one of the success stories rather than one of the failures.


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## jdavis

PA said:
			
		

> I didn't give money to Morrus for his little Christmas; I gave money to keep ENworld alive--and, if I must repeat it again: yes, I do trust Morrus to use it for that purpose; my problem is not at all with Morrus but with people who say that we have no say about the money we gave: we do. It was not a gift, it was an answer to fundraising. We have no say about the means but we do have about the purpose.



Here's the thing actually you don't have any say, see if he decides to sit on the money and kill the site anyway that's all there is to it, he isn't legally beholden to us for anything at all, this wasn't a official fund raising drive, it wasn't a official charity, it was just like handing $50 bucks to a stranger because they asked for it. He said he is saving the site, he has already sent the money to save the site, the site is saved, it's already been done, why is this thread still going? Stop splitting hairs here, we get no say at all and it doesn't matter anyway because he's already done it, the website is saved, the money is already sent, it's over, kaput, done for, finished............

This isn't a democracy, it's his website to run. He's telling us what is being done so there is the visibility that people were wanting, why is this thing still going, can we just let this one go now, it's all a moot point the website is saved and he's not jumping to any rash decisions on the rest. I'm sure he will let us know when a final decision is made. That's it folks it's all said and done here will somebody drop the curtain on this one?


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## reapersaurus

jdavis said:
			
		

> This isn't a democracy, it's his website to run.
> 
> That's it folks it's all said and done here will somebody drop the curtain on this one?



Wow, do you have a completely different picture of this website than I do.
I don't view this website as Morrus little lordship.
I view Morrus as a CUSTODIAN of ENWorld.
The current person in charge. Eric was in charge earlier, and maybe someone else will be in charge in the future.
Back when this was Eric's site, perhaps a strong case could be made for it being 'his' site, and in complete control.

But this site has evolved beyond just being Eric's little (successful) project.

As has been proven here, this site is a *Community*.
A Community which could survive even if Morrus decided to drop it on it's butt (which I repeat, is not what I believe Morrus has any intention of doing). I believe ENWorld could move somewhere else and keep going if that unthinkable happened, as was glimpsed at by some offers even in the brief, rushed hours after The Announcement.

As I stated before (and I think was missed by some people), I believe the Custodian of ENWorld should WANT to be open and harbor group discussion.
Our requests for more openness and communication about the financial and technical particulars of the website are NOT tied in with Morrus being given money - they are tied in with a desire for the leadership to be more open to group discussion. This group discussion would have a serious goal: the betterment of ENWorld.
There are numorous studies which statistically prove that a group's decisions (made with the input of many people) are BETTER than a single person's decisions. I don't see why there are people not 'getting' this basic approach.

Along these lines, it is certainly NOT "all said and done here" and I don't appreciate you trying to put the kibosh on people expressing their concerns about ENWorld's future.
It is not for you, or any other non-mod, to tell the Community when it is appropriate to stop discussion.
As long as the discussion does not violate board policy, closing threads that are still going is not a healthy thing for a Community (and I believe that the Mods strongly take this same approach, from what I've read).
I have not seen any personal attacks or threats in this thread which discusses these things, _other than people who believe that none of this should be discussed._


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## reapersaurus

Mark said:
			
		

> I thought we were collecting a stipend to compensate Morrus for his last two years of (more than) full-time devotion to the site and just hoping he might throw some of it back into keeping it going longer.



wow, I'd like to talk about this point.

I was under the understanding that for quite some time, Morrus had been "living off of Enworld". I never understood what that meant exactly, since it wasn't explained, but in that thread where he discussed stepping down from "full-time" Admin duties (which I'd LOVE to find again - 2nd request for a Search....), I thought he said that he had been taking money from the site to live off of.
And that as of that thread, he was going to be stopping that, and find a full-time job, and other people would have to do his fulltime admin duties.
It seemed to me that Piratecat immediately stepped forward, and was performing some of those duties, and darn well from what I saw.

I haven't yet been able to find out what the impact of him not performing those "fulltime admin duties" are.

I don't know what Morrus does for this site, in fact.
The only unique duty that I'm aware of is the news page, but aren't those newsbits sent in from MANY people and companies? I'd guess he'd just collate them, decide which to post, and then post them?

It's scary to me to get the impression that simply asking these basic, simple, straightforward, non-personal, non-attacking questions is treading on dangerous ground here.
Doesn't that strike anyone else as odd?
It seems to not be healthy to not feel comfortable asking these types of questions...


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## herald

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> wow, I'd like to talk about this point.
> 
> I was under the understanding that for quite some time, Morrus had been "living off of Enworld". I never understood what that meant exactly, since it wasn't explained, but in that thread where he discussed stepping down from "full-time" Admin duties (which I'd LOVE to find again - 2nd request for a Search....), I thought he said that he had been taking money from the site to live off of.
> And that as of that thread, he was going to be stopping that, and find a full-time job, and other people would have to do his fulltime admin duties.
> It seemed to me that Piratecat immediately stepped forward, and was performing some of those duties, and darn well from what I saw.
> 
> I haven't yet been able to find out what the impact of him not performing those "fulltime admin duties" are.
> 
> I don't know what Morrus does for this site, in fact.
> The only unique duty that I'm aware of is the news page, but aren't those newsbits sent in from MANY people and companies? I'd guess he'd just collate them, decide which to post, and then post them?
> 
> It's scary to me to get the impression that simply asking these basic, simple, straightforward, non-personal, non-attacking questions is treading on dangerous ground here.
> Doesn't that strike anyone else as odd?
> It seems to not be healthy to not feel comfortable asking these types of questions...





Here, here!

What I find amusing is that the some of the people who claim that they don't care about how the finaces of this web site keep stepping in and try and block anyone from answering questions. If you honestly don't care how Morrus pays for our community, fine, but let the rest of us alone. We're not here with torches and pitchforks, were here with checkbooks and paypal accounts. 

Getting in to debt takes a hard, hard toll on people. You add support of a organization like Enworld on top of that and it might make it much worse. Just opening up the line of communication between the users and Morrus might help avoid this issue in the future. 

Morrus took Eric Noah's site and spun it into something spectacular. And he payed a price for it. Just because we sent money to get Enworld back on his feet again doesn't mean that we should all just stop being concerned about Enworld and not put a thought into how tomorrow will turn out. I want to know that I will be able to access the hosted sites, messageboards and news. I also want to know when it will be time to help should that time come again.


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## Morrus

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> wow, I'd like to talk about this point.
> 
> I was under the understanding that for quite some time, Morrus had been "living off of Enworld".



Then your understanding was completely wrong.

Morrus would have _liked_ to live off the site (how cool would that be?), but unfortunately Morrus was instead paying for the site out of his own personal money, out of credit cards, and loans from his ever-despairing girlfriend. Morrus eventually realised he couldn't afford to keep doing this, and decided to look for a full-time job, as EN World evidently wasn't going to pay for itself, and that way Morrus could afford to continue paying for it, still out of his own pocket. Not to be rude, but all that meant that you have about as much "right" to anything as I have to your home or your car, which you no doubt pay for out of your own pocket.

Reapersaurus, you know I don't mind questions. But I can't abide rude people, and I'm afraid that you are one of them. That's why I don't rush to explain things in minute detail to you, and why I'm willing to share information with other people. If you check back on the thread where you asked about 40 questions in one past, you'll notice that I eventually answered them when I had the time. You never replied after that.

As for the "custodianship" idea - your history is wrong. EN World and Eric Noah's site were two totally different entities, and existed at the same time. When Eric stepped down, I decided to take over the role he had adopted (I recall that several sites did the same thing, claiming to be the "successor" to Eric's site at the time). I owned EN World before Eric stepped down, and I own it now, your opinion notwithstanding.

Man, reapersaurus, you really know how to spoil a party. You get this website for free - why can't you just enjoy it? I've never asked you for anything, and, guess what, I never will. 

And finally - will you please stop asking for information which makes it sound like I'm hiding it. Read the bloody announcement on every forum, and read my comments in this thread. You have ALL the information that there is. There is no more information to give you. When there is more information to tell, I will share it, as very, very plainly stated repeatedly. 

Damn, I was in such a good mood yesterday. Why did I know it would be you to spoil it? I've had enough of your rude demands, and I've had enough of your implied insults ("lordship", indeed). Please either learn some manners or go away.

*To everyone else*

You'll find the information you seek both in my replies in this thread, and in the announcement at the top of each forum.  When there is more information, you will find that there too.  I plan to be open about what happens with the money, and I plan to talk to a whole bunch of people (Clark Peterson has kindly offered to help with a long-term plan) before I do anything.  Thanks!


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## Dimwhit

> originally posted by *PA*
> 
> 
> 
> Dimwhit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not to start an argument or anything...but I didn't give money to ENWorld. I gave money to Morrus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, here is what I paid for:
> 
> EN_World_Support
> Code: EN_World
> Price: 20.00
> Quantity: 1
> Subtotal: 20.00
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gee, PA, that's very clever of you! But you're talking semantics. More than 100 people went to paypal and sent money to a guy named Eric, who was going to pass the money to this Russ guy to help him out with the debt this website put him in, and to get the site back on its feet. No "EN World Support" in that exchange. The only reason your receipt says "EN World Support" is because those are the words Joe used when he set it up on his Expeditious Retreat website.
> 
> So if he put "Morrus Support Fund" instead, you wouldn't have given money? Maybe that would have been better.
> 
> ******
> 
> Hey Morrus, if you really want to vent, I think there's a BFD thread in your honor at NKL! And thanks for being patient with everyone. You SHOULD be in a great mood. I hope it comes back soon! I know everyone is happy to have helped (even reapersaurus, PA, et al) and happy the site is still here.
> 
> (Now I'll wait for Eric or another mod to [rightly] chide me about my post to PA--which I really did tone down! You should see the first draft.  )
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## Darrin Drader

I'm with JDavis on this subject. I'm all for closing this thread at this point.


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## EricNoah

Baraendur said:
			
		

> I'm with JDavis on this subject. I'm all for closing this thread at this point.





*raises hand, Horseshack style*

Ooh, ooh! Let me!  

---

In seriousness -- no, this isn't the end of the discussion about EN World's future.  Suggestions and questions are welcome.  Start up a new thread if you have a good idea about how the money could be used or how future funds can be generated.  G'night!


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