# The apocalypse on 2012?



## 0bsolete (Dec 10, 2007)

All right, I have read about this, I've watched some history channel segments on this, and everything seems to note all the evidence FOR the world ending on 2012. The Mayan calendar ends on December 21st 2012, the Chinese prophecy tool the I Ching (i believe its called) puts the end of the world in the same area. Specific interpretations of the Nostradamus prophecies put the end of the world on the same place. Still, there are two sides to each story, and I want to know the second part. 

Now, here is what I've compiled so far as far as the second side. The importance of the day December 21st 2012 is that an astrological alignment will take place that occurs once every 26,000 years or so. I also note that the Mayans show strong evidence of having astrological skills, as do the Chinese and astrology/numerology was thriving in the time of Nostradamus. So I've found a common thread between these 3 sections. Also, once one or two were found that lead to that date, people started looking for that date. There are hundreds of interpretations of the Nostradamus prophecies, but the popular one happens to coincide with that date.

Now, just to cover some bases right now before they derail the topic, humans have been predicting the end of the world pretty much since the beginning.  1000 AD, 1666 AD, Y2K, and  more than a handful of others, pick your year. 

All right, now here is the end of my little bit here, what does everybody else think? What other tidbits of information do you guys have? Lets get this chat going people.


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## trancejeremy (Dec 10, 2007)

Uh, that thing is the whole basis for the game Shadowrun. So it's not exaclty new.


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## RithTheAwakener (Dec 10, 2007)

I find this stuff incredibly fascinating. There is quite a lot of interesting information and speculation on this subject, as well as potential ties to ancient Sumerian knowledge and predictions, that I am quite smitten with. 

To go into a brief overview, apparently ancient Sumerians knew that the sun was in the center of the universe, they knew the positions and sizes of all of the planets in our solar system, even those past Jupiter that are not able to be seen with the naked eye, and there is no evidence of telescope technology in their civilization. It also speaks of a 12th celestial body that they call Nibiru, which has an extremely eliptical orbit around our sun and takes many thousands of years to make a full orbit, and some believe that it should be coming back in 2012, resulting in lots and lots of death. 

Now, whether or not any of these apocalyptic notions true, I have no idea, but it's very interesting stuff 

edit: i r grammar


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## adndgamer (Dec 10, 2007)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Uh, that thing is the whole basis for the game Shadowrun. So it's not exaclty new.




Because Shadowrun is older than the Mayans?

If December 21 2012 is the date of the end of the world, at least we live in interesting times.  We might be lucky enough (or unlucky enough) to see our species get wiped out.  More interesting probably than any other time in history.


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## Umbran (Dec 10, 2007)

0bsolete said:
			
		

> All right, now here is the end of my little bit here, what does everybody else think? What other tidbits of information do you guys have? Lets get this chat going people.




Well, here's the thing - from what I've read, there is no archaeological evidence to say the Mayans believed that there was going to be any "end of the world" or such.

The Mayans had a complicated calendaring system, that worked using several layers of repeating cycles.  The Mayan Long Count Calendar is the longest of them, and it happens to end in 2012.  Note that there have been found Mayan writings that reference dates _after_ 2012.  You aren't going to reference dates after the end of the world, right?

Hitting an end of a cycle, then, may have been important to the Mayans, but the apocalyptic stuff is a more recent New Age addition.

Mind you, there are still some interesting things out there - the design of Egyptian pyramids and the arrangement of certain temples in Cambodia do suggest some pretty odd astronomical knowledge among the ancients - that they understood the precession of the Earth's pole, for example.


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## RithTheAwakener (Dec 10, 2007)

adndgamer said:
			
		

> If December 21 2012 is the date of the end of the world, at least we live in interesting times.  We might be lucky enough (or unlucky enough) to see our species get wiped out.  More interesting probably than any other time in history.




I agree 100%.


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## Ranger REG (Dec 10, 2007)

adndgamer said:
			
		

> If December 21 2012 is the date of the end of the world, at least we live in interesting times.  *We might be lucky enough* (or unlucky enough) *to see our species get wiped out.*



Sweet.


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## palleomortis (Dec 10, 2007)

adndgamer said:
			
		

> Because Shadowrun is older than the Mayans?




Now now, I'm SURE that's not what he meant. Let me clarify. Shadowrun is NOT older than the Mayans. It just so happens that it was origionally invented around that time, and the whole "end of the earth" thing just kinda fit in as a cool game setting.


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## Angel Tarragon (Dec 10, 2007)

I agree, we do live in interesting times.

We do have the technology that allows most people to see the news on the go, which is key as well.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Dec 10, 2007)

Well, I have it on good authority that the world actually ended about three months ago, but the paperwork has not yet managed to clear the universal bureaucratic hurdles, so we have not been made aware of it.  

The end of the world was apparently caused by the combined effects of a number of things, but the final trigger was the airing of the TV show, "Cavemen."


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## Numion (Dec 10, 2007)

I took a 15 year loan for buying my house this year .. _those suckers_!

They'll never get it back


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## JDJblatherings (Dec 10, 2007)

2012 isn't "the end of the world" it's the "end of the world as we know it now". 

Oh look age of aquarius... fascinating.

one shoudl note, tha Mayans thought mayan civilization wouldl under go problems but still be here in 2012, they certainly got that part wrong.


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## 0bsolete (Dec 10, 2007)

The main problem I have with this concept is that really, it ends up falling back into a religious mindset of some type. Not that you have to be religious, but that there is a religious-esque mindset that assumed a pre-written, detailed path of existence. Now, I'm not saying this isn't correct, and I'm not saying it is, I'm just saying I'm wondering what the other side of the story is.

I think at the end of the day, I know what I'm going to do on December 21st. Go to all the end of the world parties, have fun and get drunk, but I'm going to make sure I drink two glasses of water before I go to bed and not host one at my house, that way I don't have to clean up or deal with a killer hangover the next day.


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## Kahuna Burger (Dec 10, 2007)

Umbran said:
			
		

> Hitting an end of a cycle, then, may have been important to the Mayans, but the apocalyptic stuff is a more recent New Age addition.



I wouldn't describe it as "New Age". We've been living in the "end times" for a few hundred years now, and the World End predictions I've seen in my lifetime have run the gamut of social niche appeal... 

It's like living in the Buffy-verse sometimes "And now I find myself needing to know the plural of apocalypse"....    But if this one gains traction, I promise to have the 2012 KahunaCon be themed The End of the World as We Know It, with an apocalypse or post apocalyptic game in every slot.


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## werk (Dec 10, 2007)

JDJblatherings said:
			
		

> one shoudl note, tha Mayans thought mayan civilization wouldl under go problems but still be here in 2012, they certainly got that part wrong.




I thought that the mayan's calculated out their long count calendar, beginning and end, then found out where they were on it at the time...something like 3rd age, near the middle.  At the end is their symbol for death.

I don't really believe in it, but it's interesting.


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## Rackhir (Dec 10, 2007)

I'm sure it will prove to be every bit as accurate as this "prophecy" from Nostradamus.

"The year 1999, seventh month,
From the sky will come a great King of Terror.
To bring back to life the great King of the Mongols,
Before and after Mars to reign by good luck."

Cause you all remember the King of Terror and the King of the Mongols from 1999, right?


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## Dire Bare (Dec 10, 2007)

What I'm wondering is, after 2012 passes and we're all okay (other than the slightly increased global temperatures causing rising sea levels, increased desertification and other environmental ills), when's the next apocalypse?

I always like a good apocalypse to look forward too.


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## Numion (Dec 10, 2007)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> Cause you all remember the King of Terror and the King of the Mongols from 1999, right?




Got damn I completely missed that   

That would've been so cool. King of Terror. What is with these weak 20th-21st century monarchs? A real King is the King of Terror and comes from the SKY!

BTW, on this hunchback of notre dame, he made about 6500 predictions. Surely some of those would come true by mere chance?


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## Kahuna Burger (Dec 10, 2007)

Numion said:
			
		

> BTW, on this hunchback of notre dame, he made about 6500 predictions. Surely some of those would come true by mere chance?



esp if they are sufficiently vague and people *want* them to come true. I remember watching a Nostro special back towards the end of the Cold War, and they were talking about one of the prophecies and making it out to be about the USSR.... Saw the same special "updated" a decade later or so - the same prophecy had magicly transformed to be arab related....


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## Rackhir (Dec 10, 2007)

Numion said:
			
		

> Got damn I completely missed that
> 
> That would've been so cool. King of Terror. What is with these weak 20th-21st century monarchs? A real King is the King of Terror and comes from the SKY!
> 
> BTW, on this hunchback of notre dame, he made about 6500 predictions. Surely some of those would come true by mere chance?




Depends. If you want to look strictly at what he wrote and with knowledge of what words meant at the time according to some sources, he's batting about zero. Even one of his more famous "predictions" from the era when he lived is pretty dubious.

"The young Lion will overcome the old one,
in martial field by a single duel.
In a golden cage he shall put out his eye.
Two wounds from one, and then he shall die a cruel death."

Supposedly, this predicted the death of the French King, Henri II, but it really doesn't hold up, without some very generous interpretations of fact. Since, he and the guy who killed them were about the same age and neither used a lion as their symbol.

Hister was the name of a river and nothing to do with Hitler. Etc...

Basically, he's about as accurate as any "prophet". Which is to say not at all. He's just had a better PR machine than most.


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## megamania (Dec 10, 2007)

The end of everything I believe is a tad exaggerated.  But there are new cycles.

2012 may begin the Cycle of the Rising Waters (global warming vs polar caps) or something of the such.

Also, (now I will be stoned and kicked) the aliens /dimensional beings that showed them the ability to track the stars and the signifigance of it may be returning then as part of the new age / cycle.


As for Michael Nostradamus' predictions.... they are interpertations of something purposely hidden so as to avoid having his head removed and branded a warlock by the queen.  He saw stuff but couldn't explain much of it and had to hid other parts of it.

There is lots of crazy stuff out there but folks would rather ignore / disbelieve it than acknowledge it.












....and yes. I am crazy but not because I believe in this kinda stuff.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Dec 10, 2007)

palleomortis said:
			
		

> Now now, I'm SURE that's not what he meant. Let me clarify. Shadowrun is NOT older than the Mayans. It just so happens that it was origionally invented around that time, and the whole "end of the earth" thing just kinda fit in as a cool game setting.




All I know is that if I do turn into something in 2012, I'd better darn well turn into a dwarf.

Brad


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## Rackhir (Dec 10, 2007)

megamania said:
			
		

> As for Michael Nostradamus' predictions.... they are interpertations of something purposely hidden so as to avoid having his head removed and branded a warlock by the queen.  He saw stuff but couldn't explain much of it and had to hid other parts of it.
> 
> There is lots of crazy stuff out there but folks would rather ignore / disbelieve it than acknowledge it.




Nice try, but he could have written for example.

"Bill Gates of Seattle will dominate the WWW by forcing Windows onto IBM." Which would have been as totally cryptic and meaningless to anyone at the time he wrote it as any quatrain he wrote, while still being a clear and accurate prophecy. Obfustication to people of his time, does not prevent clarity to later generations. 

Try reading the prophecies of Agnes Nutter in "Good Omens" by Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman for an example of how this could work.

Any successes that "prophets" have had as far as I can tell falls purely into the realm of "There will be an earthquake in Southern California". IE. stuff that is bound to happen sooner or later. Most of them can't even hit the accuracy rate of blind guesses.

Got any explicit examples of things you'd like to give us?


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## Kahuna Burger (Dec 10, 2007)

megamania said:
			
		

> As for Michael Nostradamus' predictions.... they are interpertations of something purposely hidden so as to avoid having his head removed and branded a warlock by the queen.  He saw stuff but couldn't explain much of it and had to hid other parts of it.



oooh, nice. As artful dodges for failed prophecies go, it's definitely more impressive than the whole seeing through the glass yet darkly...


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## Umbran (Dec 10, 2007)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> I wouldn't describe it as "New Age". We've been living in the "end times" for a few hundred years now, and the World End predictions I've seen in my lifetime have run the gamut of social niche appeal...




No, I mean specifically - the first published work I'm aware of suggesting the Mayan calendar implied some sort of "end of the world as we know it" was by José Argüelles, who was big n the Harmonic Convergence stuff.  Definitely a New Ager.

Which is not to say others have not been predicting the end of the world.  People have been predicting that... probably since there have been people with sufficient language skills for the purpose.


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## Rackhir (Dec 10, 2007)

Umbran said:
			
		

> ...who was big n the Harmonic Convergence stuff.






			
				wikipedia said:
			
		

> In 2007, a rumor began circulating on the Internet that the true reason for the spiritual event [The Harmonic Convergence] was the birth of Florida Gators quarterback Tim Tebow on August 14, 1987.




Wow. Suddenly it all makes sense!


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## werk (Dec 10, 2007)

Source of the Cosmogenesis Story said:
			
		

> : Link :
> In conclusion, Maya Cosmogenesis 2012 is a prelude to a major breakthrough in understanding our origins. The fulfillment of that breakthrough will be a shift in modern paradigms of uncomparable magnitude that will modify the educational dogma of modern science. When fully comprehended, we will realize that our declaration of "superstitious illiterates" is a direct reflection of our incapacity to comprehend what is before our own faces.




:blink:

ok...


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## Numion (Dec 10, 2007)

megamania said:
			
		

> Also, (now I will be stoned and kicked) the aliens /dimensional beings that showed them the ability to track the stars and the signifigance of it may be returning then as part of the new age / cycle.




Do you think they'll be pissed off since Mayans have fallen pretty hard?

Or that we now know much more about astronomy than Mayans ever did even with the aliens help?




> There is lots of crazy stuff out there but folks would rather ignore / disbelieve it than acknowledge it.
> 
> ....and yes. I am crazy but not because I believe in this kinda stuff.




Crazy stuff is usually ignored, well, because its _crazy_.


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## Simplicity (Dec 11, 2007)

Sorry to inform you all, but the world's been ended for like 3 or 4 years now.  That's okay though because now we can all stop obsessing about stuff and get on with our lives.


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## Angel Tarragon (Dec 11, 2007)

> Source of the Cosmogenesis Story
> In conclusion, Maya Cosmogenesis 2012 is a prelude to a major breakthrough in understanding our origins. The fulfillment of that breakthrough will be a shift in modern paradigms of uncomparable magnitude that will modify the educational dogma of modern science. When fully comprehended, we will realize that our declaration of "superstitious illiterates" is a direct reflection of our incapacity to comprehend what is before our own faces.



Whoa. That would be absolutely terrific if it came to pass.


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## Rackhir (Dec 11, 2007)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> Source of the Cosmogenesis Story
> In conclusion, Maya Cosmogenesis 2012 is a prelude to a major breakthrough in understanding our origins. The fulfillment of that breakthrough will be a shift in modern paradigms of uncomparable magnitude that will modify the educational dogma of modern science. When fully comprehended, we will realize that our declaration of "superstitious illiterates" is a direct reflection of our incapacity to comprehend what is before our own faces.
> 
> Whoa. That would be absolutely terrific if it came to pass.




I'm holding out for the synergizing of the actualization for our leveraged assets. 

or

<insert Dilbert Joke Here>


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## Angel Tarragon (Dec 11, 2007)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> I'm holding out for the synergizing of the actualization for our leveraged assets.
> 
> or
> 
> <insert Dilbert Joke Here>



I guess it takes a fair amount of intelligence and a lot of wisdom to understand it.


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## HeavenShallBurn (Dec 11, 2007)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> Whoa. That would be absolutely terrific if it came to pass.



I welcome the sterling opportunity for humanity to branch out and make senseless war on organisms of diverse astronomical origin.  

People have been predicting the end of the world for a VERY long time.  The world doesn't hear them, and if it did a planet is too big to care about a couple pesky species with a collective lifespan equivalent to a few human seconds.  Not likely to oblige us I think.

Then again according to certain controversial opinions non-observed actions exist in an indeterminate state until observed by an actor.  Ohmygodtheworldisalreadyover!!!@!  We're nothing but a propogating wavefront with delusions of grandour, AHHHHH make it stop!@#!


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## Angel Tarragon (Dec 11, 2007)

HeavenShallBurn said:
			
		

> I welcome the sterling opportunity for humanity to branch out and make senseless war on organisms of diverse astronomical origin.



The way I read it, it has absolutely nothing to do with war. As a matter of fact I am an anti-war pro-peace person.


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## HeavenShallBurn (Dec 11, 2007)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> The way I read it, it has absolutely nothing to do with war. As a matter of fact I am an anti-war pro-peace person.



Didn't intend to mean you weren't.  EDIT: I misquoted you it was the other guy who had "the secret alien teachers of the Mayan astronomers will show up"

I was just sarcastically noting that humanity tends not to handle surprises very well, and an unannounced visit from the interstellar neighbors is just a bit startling.  In a way likely to provoke a bad reaction.


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## Rackhir (Dec 11, 2007)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> The way I read it, it has absolutely nothing to do with war. As a matter of fact I am an anti-war pro-peace person.




How very Neutral of you. What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?


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## Angel Tarragon (Dec 11, 2007)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> How very Neutral of you. What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?



No; not neutral, not by a long a long shot. I am actaully a very warm and caring person and believe that everyone deserves a second chance regardless of what they have done.


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## megamania (Dec 11, 2007)

This is more entertaining than the whole 4e crapolla happening.


Predicting the future can be done.  Something like the "end of it all" however is more driven by our parania / obssession with death.

Strange things seen but has no explanation-

Footprints of a T-Rex and a human side by side in the petrified mud of a river bank

Aboriginal drawings of themselves bowing / trading with a "human" in a visored helmet (not a mask before you go there)

A Painting in the 1600's of JC in a triangular crafted flying machine with flames coming from the backside


It doesn't "say" anything or prove anything but you must still stop, scratch your head and go "WTF".


It's almost like religion.... its more about believing in something that has no substance or proof but is of a reality of it self.

'nuff said.   This will become yet another thread of flame wars which we have an entire section devoted to already.


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## Angel Tarragon (Dec 11, 2007)

megamania said:
			
		

> This is more entertaining than the whole 4e crapolla happening.



QFT!


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## megamania (Dec 11, 2007)

yup yup!





....and just to throw more wood on the fire... Edgar Cayce.


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## Rackhir (Dec 11, 2007)

megamania said:
			
		

> Predicting the future can be done.




Let me make my point in a less snarky way. Prophecy or predicting the future is both useless and pointless, if all you can do is point to something _after the fact_ and say that "predicted" it happening.

Can you name one single disaster, assassination, war, plague or such that was predicted _ahead of time_ and was either averted or significantly reduced in it's impact by it's being predicted? Cause human history is carpeted with situations that if prophecy worked, if psychic powers actually existed, could have been averted. It wouldn't have taken a lot to have prevented the assassination of the Arch Duke that triggered WWI for example.

Why aren't all Psychics making a killing in the stock market? Why do they ask me "Who's calling?"? Why don't they call me and tell me what I need to know?



			
				megamania said:
			
		

> Strange things seen but has no explanation-
> 
> Footprints of a T-Rex and a human side by side in the petrified mud of a river bank




Ah, this one was a favorite of the "creation science" people, once upon a time. It's been debunked. Even the Institute for Creation Research doesn't claim they are "human" and dinosaur footprints any more (they were in fact other smaller dinosaur and larger dinosaur Footprints).

http://www.skepticfiles.org/evolut/fooevo.htm
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/paluxy.html

In my experience when a person claims something like this is "unexplainable" or have some fantastic explaination for it, usually that's because they know nothing about what they are claiming is "unexplainable". When you ask people who actually know something about the subject, these "unexplainable" things usually tend to have fairly simple and straight forward explanations that don't involve any extraordinary factors.



			
				megamania said:
			
		

> Aboriginal drawings of themselves bowing / trading with a "human" in a visored helmet (not a mask before you go there)
> 
> A Painting in the 1600's of JC in a triangular crafted flying machine with flames coming from the backside




References? Pictures? Links? Something other than your word it is so? 



			
				megamania said:
			
		

> 'nuff said.   This will become yet another thread of flame wars which we have an entire section devoted to already.




No that's Circus Maximus. That's actually a separate web site, though loosely associated with EN World. I think there's a link to it under the Media sub-board heading.


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## Horacio (Dec 11, 2007)

People's beliefs, either in a god or in little green men, are very personal and very important. Philosophical discussions car turn as nasty as religious one...

So I prefer keeping my oppinion to myself on this subject in EN World


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## Rackhir (Dec 11, 2007)

Horacio said:
			
		

> People's beliefs, either in a god or in little green men, are very personal and very important. Philosophical discussions car turn as nasty as religious one...
> 
> So I prefer keeping my oppinion to myself on this subject in EN World




Hey! Horacio! How are you doing these days? I still remember you bumping the original thread of Sepulchrave's on what he should do with the paladin and the succubus, so he'd come back and tell us what happened. One of my fond memories of ENWorld.



			
				Frukathka said:
			
		

> No; not neutral, not by a long a long shot. I am actaully a very warm and caring person and believe that everyone deserves a second chance regardless of what they have done.




Not a Futurama fan, I'm guessing. Oh well.


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## SWBaxter (Dec 11, 2007)

Umbran said:
			
		

> The Mayans had a complicated calendaring system, that worked using several layers of repeating cycles.  The Mayan Long Count Calendar is the longest of them, and it happens to end in 2012.




Just to be pedantic, it doesn't end, it ticks over. It's analogous to our calendar going from 1999 to 2000, the biggest digit is changing (from 12 to 13, in the Mayan case).


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## Umbran (Dec 11, 2007)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> Eric frowns upon religious discussion. They have a tendency to turn nasty and get heated.




Yes - often because of responses like yours, which can come off as pretty snarky.  You may want to tone it down some, before your own stock begins to plummet.


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## Umbran (Dec 11, 2007)

SWBaxter said:
			
		

> Just to be pedantic, it doesn't end, it ticks over. It's analogous to our calendar going from 1999 to 2000, the biggest digit is changing (from 12 to 13, in the Mayan case).




Yes, well to be equally pedantic, what I meant is that the current cycle ends - and the next one then begins.  The Mayans tended to mark the end of cycles with festivals and the like...


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## Kahuna Burger (Dec 11, 2007)

Umbran said:
			
		

> Yes - often because of responses like yours, which can come off as pretty snarky.  You may want to tone it down some, before your own stock begins to plummet.



While the tone might have been slightly snarky, it seems to me that if someone lists things that we "must" react to a certain way and giving our actual reactions (be they amusement, resignation to people who keep repeating things decades after they have been dealt with or simply taking the person less seriously as a source of facts) is unacceptable, then the original assertions were unacceptable as well. 

(If you intended your comments to be Mod Red, I will delete these comments and take the more generalized sentiment somewhere more appropriate.)


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## cignus_pfaccari (Dec 11, 2007)

megamania said:
			
		

> ....and just to throw more wood on the fire... Edgar Cayce.




Overrated.  Had some "hits" but missed a lot more, and badly, too.

Brad


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## Merkuri (Dec 11, 2007)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> Can you name one single disaster, assassination, war, plague or such that was predicted _ahead of time_ and was either averted or significantly reduced in it's impact by it's being predicted?




Y2K!   

(Note, I'm just being silly, not really meaning to put forth a valid argument.  Please do not flame. )


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## Kahuna Burger (Dec 11, 2007)

cignus_pfaccari said:
			
		

> Overrated.  Had some "hits" but missed a lot more, and badly, too.



didn't he give a diagnosis and advice for someone who had died by the time he got the letter?


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## Rackhir (Dec 11, 2007)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> didn't he give a diagnosis and advice for someone who had died by the time he got the letter?




http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mcayce.html
http://skepdic.com/cayce.html


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## Tewligan (Dec 12, 2007)

megamania said:
			
		

> A Painting in the 1600's of JC in a triangular crafted flying machine with flames coming from the backside



Just to clarify this sentence, the flames are coming from the backside of the machine and not Jesus, right?


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## Mathew_Freeman (Dec 12, 2007)

Tewligan said:
			
		

> Just to clarify this sentence, the flames are coming from the backside of the machine and not Jesus, right?




I'd pay good money to see a picture of JC with flames coming out his arse.


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## Kahuna Burger (Dec 12, 2007)

Merkuri said:
			
		

> Y2K!
> 
> (Note, I'm just being silly, not really meaning to put forth a valid argument.  Please do not flame. )



I'm not sure why not - iirc some early tests to trick systems into thinking the rollover had happened resulted in issues that, while maybe not apocalyptic, would have put a serious crimp in people's days. The code changes were made and the rollover went smoothly.


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## Rackhir (Dec 12, 2007)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> I'm not sure why not - iirc some early tests to trick systems into thinking the rollover had happened resulted in issues that, while maybe not apocalyptic, would have put a serious crimp in people's days. The code changes were made and the rollover went smoothly.




Well I said "Predicted" when I should have said "prophicised". Y2k was predicted, but didn't show up in any Notradamus quatrains or Edgar Cayce's predictions. Even Jean Dixion didn't see that problem coming.


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## Kahuna Burger (Dec 12, 2007)

megamania said:
			
		

> A Painting in the 1600's of JC in a triangular crafted flying machine with flames coming from the backside



This would be some 600 years after the Chinese had invented fireworks, including crude rockets, 300 years or more since knowledge of those inventions came to Europe and 100 since the time of Wan Hu, the Chinese official who legendarily tried to launch himself into space with a firework powered rocket chair. So there's nothing particularly mind blowing about a painter of that era envisioning a person being flown through the air with flames.


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## Kahuna Burger (Dec 12, 2007)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> Well I said "Predicted" when I should have said "prophicised". Y2k was predicted, but didn't show up in any Notradamus quatrains or Edgar Cayce's predictions. Even Jean Dixion didn't see that problem coming.



Ah, an important distinction. In that case, all I got is the destruction of the Sandleford Warren - oh wait, that's a novel....


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## cignus_pfaccari (Dec 12, 2007)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> didn't he give a diagnosis and advice for someone who had died by the time he got the letter?




Among other things.  For hits, I'm thinking maybe the Bimini Road and the supposed Atlantean records chamber under the right forepaw of the Sphinx (where, apparently, open spaces have been detected, though odds are that they're natural).

But, yeah, his batting average was pretty low.

Brad


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## Rackhir (Dec 12, 2007)

cignus_pfaccari said:
			
		

> Among other things.  For hits, I'm thinking maybe the Bimini Road and the supposed Atlantean records chamber under the right forepaw of the Sphinx (where, apparently, open spaces have been detected, though odds are that they're natural).
> 
> But, yeah, his batting average was pretty low.
> 
> Brad




"Even a stopped clock is right twice a day."

-Marie Von Ebner-Eschenbach


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## Michael Morris (Dec 13, 2007)

Dire Bare said:
			
		

> What I'm wondering is, after 2012 passes and we're all okay (other than the slightly increased global temperatures causing rising sea levels, increased desertification and other environmental ills), when's the next apocalypse?
> 
> I always like a good apocalypse to look forward too.



 January 19th 2038. At that point unix timestamps can no longer be stored with a 32 bit integer.  PHP currently doesn't handle 64 bit integers well, and post times are stored using unix timestamps - so on January 19th 2038 the clock stops if I don't have the upgrade done by then.

Ahem, it will be done quite a bit sooner than then though


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## Numion (Dec 13, 2007)

Wonder where humanitys want for there to be something beyond our observations comes from. If you get right down into it the things we _can_ observe are wondrous enough to fill at least one lifetime.

But no, it's gotta be aliens, the end of the world, stuff like that..


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## RithTheAwakener (Dec 13, 2007)

Numion said:
			
		

> Wonder where humanitys want for there to be something beyond our observations comes from. If you get right down into it the things we _can_ observe are wondrous enough to fill at least one lifetime.




But where does one find the time...


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## megamania (Dec 13, 2007)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> Let me make my point in a less snarky way. Prophecy or predicting the future is both useless and pointless, if all you can do is point to something _after the fact_ and say that "predicted" it happening.
> 
> Can you name one single disaster, assassination, war, plague or such that was predicted _ahead of time_ and was either averted or significantly reduced in it's impact by it's being predicted? Cause human history is carpeted with situations that if prophecy worked, if psychic powers actually existed, could have been averted. It wouldn't have taken a lot to have prevented the assassination of the Arch Duke that triggered WWI for example.
> 
> ...





I'll see if I can find the books this weekend.    As for predicting the future I have the ability but it is basically useless and trivial stuff.   The earliest I remember is when I was about 3-4 years old I dreamed of falling through wooden planks that I was crawling on.   And soon enough, my folks were building a new storage area and as lil' tikes go, I began to climb on them.  Placed my weight on a not and crack- down I went.

In 7th grade I dreamed of cutting out pictures of fruit and then an arm in a purple sweater reached before me.  When I awoke I honestly thought how stupid that was.   I'm just short of a teenager and I'm cutting out fruit like a lil' tike.   Then a few weeks later-  French class, the teacher had us cut out pictures of fruit and label then.  Carrie Pike, a girl in my class, reached across me to get the glue and ...yup-  she had a new purple sweater on.

Second year of college, driving home on an open stretch of road.  Have a flash in my head about a police officer and being pulled over.  Even as I laugh at it I see a police car that turns on his lights.


So yes, seeing the future can be done.  How useful it is.... in my case very little.


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## Rackhir (Dec 13, 2007)

megamania said:
			
		

> I'll see if I can find the books this weekend.    As for predicting the future I have the ability but it is basically useless and trivial stuff.   The earliest I remember is when I was about 3-4 years old I dreamed of falling through wooden planks that I was crawling on.   And soon enough, my folks were building a new storage area and as lil' tikes go, I began to climb on them.  Placed my weight on a not and crack- down I went.
> 
> In 7th grade I dreamed of cutting out pictures of fruit and then an arm in a purple sweater reached before me.  When I awoke I honestly thought how stupid that was.   I'm just short of a teenager and I'm cutting out fruit like a lil' tike.   Then a few weeks later-  French class, the teacher had us cut out pictures of fruit and label then.  Carrie Pike, a girl in my class, reached across me to get the glue and ...yup-  she had a new purple sweater on.
> 
> ...




While I believe you are being 100% honest and sincere in what you are saying, the problem is that human memory and perceptions can be both extremely unreliable and remarkably selective in how they function.

How many times have you had X pop into your head and had nothing like that happen or appear? People have much stronger memories for when things like this happen to match up than they do for when they don't. Most so called "speakers to the dead" and other psychics depend very heavily on this fact. So they'll toss out 10 guesses and all people remember are the one they happened to get right by accident or by basic deduction. 

A similar phenomenon happens with street lights going out as you walk underneath them. You don't really notice or think about the hundreds that don't go out or were off and stay off while you pass underneath them, but the changing light conditions when one does go off attracts your attention in a way that the non-change doesn't.

Perhaps that girl had worn the sweater before and it simply hadn't registered. Maybe the French class had some similar projects from previous classes hanging on the wall or the teacher had mentioned previously that you'd be doing this and it had slipped your mind.

I know when I'm driving I think on regular occasions what it would be like or wonder if I might get pulled over by a cop and I haven't gotten a ticket in 20 years.

I once identified an episode of "Batman the Animated Series" from a 2 second clip of Batman running in some sort of non-descript cavern. Yet, I sometimes can't remember stuff I was told 5 minutes ago.


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## Dire Bare (Dec 13, 2007)

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> January 19th 2038. At that point unix timestamps can no longer be stored with a 32 bit integer.  PHP currently doesn't handle 64 bit integers well, and post times are stored using unix timestamps - so on January 19th 2038 the clock stops if I don't have the upgrade done by then.
> 
> Ahem, it will be done quite a bit sooner than then though



Thanks!


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## WhatGravitas (Dec 13, 2007)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> How many times have you had X pop into your head and had nothing like that happen or appear? People have much stronger memories for when things like this happen to match up than they do for when they don't. Most so called "speakers to the dead" and other psychics depend very heavily on this fact. So they'll toss out 10 guesses and all people remember are the one they happened to get right by accident or by basic deduction.



That's very true. Otherwise I'm a psychic as well - but I know I'm not, because I use the same method to learn. I know that my sub-consciousness is quite active and that I tend to remember a lot of things sub-consciously.

I'm using that by skimming a lot of stuff, even for my university studies, for example I'm doing that for my example sheets - and guess what: Reading and skimming through them (without thinking about the problems) in advance, taking a nap, and then start working helps me a lot. I'm getting ideas out of nowhere, and if I'm doing that with wikipedia, I also end up knowing a lot more stuff without knowing _when_ and _where_ I've learned that.

And I dream about lost stuff and find it - and I guess that's mainly because I've half-remembered where I've put it, but it takes a dream/nap to realize it. If that's not my sub-consciousness, it means I'm psychic about my physics studies. Or a genius. But as far as I know, I'm neither.

But I know how to put my resources to work, even if it's sub-consciously.

Cheers, LT.


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## Relique du Madde (Dec 13, 2007)

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> January 19th 2038. At that point unix timestamps can no longer be stored with a 32 bit integer.  PHP currently doesn't handle 64 bit integers well, and post times are stored using unix timestamps - so on January 19th 2038 the clock stops if I don't have the upgrade done by then.
> 
> Ahem, it will be done quite a bit sooner than then though




Dude... that will be Y2k+32y+28d!  

[panic]


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## Numion (Dec 13, 2007)

Lord Tirian said:
			
		

> I'm using that by skimming a lot of stuff, even for my university studies, for example I'm doing that for my example sheets - and guess what: Reading and skimming through them (without thinking about the problems) in advance, taking a nap, and then start working helps me a lot. I'm getting ideas out of nowhere, and if I'm doing that with wikipedia, I also end up knowing a lot more stuff without knowing _when_ and _where_ I've learned that.




But think about it: why would humans have developed the necessity of sleep and the accompanying thought processes, unless there was some evolutionary advantage to it? Most people (or the scientists that study sleep) don't know why or how it works. There's quite a big disadvantage in having to sleep; you're mostly defenseless for 1/3rd of your life, or so. So the advantage should be comparably large.

You've at least recognized one advantage, even though the ability to ace exams probably isn't directly evolutionary


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## Numion (Dec 13, 2007)

megamania said:
			
		

> So yes, seeing the future can be done.  How useful it is.... in my case very little.




Um yeah, sure. .. I have a vision coming in right now: Hmmmmm ..  I see that tomorrow morning I'll ....hmmmm..... wake up around ....hmmmmmm.... 8 o'clock, shower, get dressed, eat and go to work.

I'll get back to you tomorrow how it worked out  :\


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## Rackhir (Dec 13, 2007)

Numion said:
			
		

> But think about it: why would humans have developed the necessity of sleep and the accompanying thought processes, unless there was some evolutionary advantage to it? Most people (or the scientists that study sleep) don't know why or how it works. There's quite a big disadvantage in having to sleep; you're mostly defenseless for 1/3rd of your life, or so. So the advantage should be comparably large.
> 
> You've at least recognized one advantage, even though the ability to ace exams probably isn't directly evolutionary




Don't nearly all creatures with a brain have some form of sleep? It could be something that got incorporated at a very early stage in the development of "thinking" creatures and has been carried forward. Like the qwerty layout has been from typewriters.


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## Numion (Dec 13, 2007)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> Don't nearly all creatures with a brain have some form of sleep? It could be something that got incorporated at a very early stage in the development of "thinking" creatures and has been carried forward. Like the qwerty layout has been from typewriters.




Yes they do. But some species require less and some more; there's an inverse size correlation, IIRC, but it's not set in stone. So why have some species evolved to require certain amount on average, and others a different amount? Why are there dreams? Some amount is surely just an upkeep cost for having a brain, but why is sleep in different species the way it is?


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## Umbran (Dec 14, 2007)

Numion said:
			
		

> Wonder where humanitys want for there to be something beyond our observations comes from. If you get right down into it the things we _can_ observe are wondrous enough to fill at least one lifetime.




Humanity doesn't necessarily want 'something beyond" - humans want an explanation.  Once we have an explanation for a phenomenon, we have the hope of using it as a tool. 

A great deal of what we call science operates outside the observation of your five senses, on scales you cannot see directly, so that for our entire history there have been effects without know causes.  But, at every step, we try to explain.

So, the same drive that yields aliens helping the Mayans also produced the computer you're using to read these messageboards...


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## cignus_pfaccari (Dec 14, 2007)

Numion said:
			
		

> Yes they do. But some species require less and some more; there's an inverse size correlation, IIRC, but it's not set in stone. So why have some species evolved to require certain amount on average, and others a different amount? Why are there dreams? Some amount is surely just an upkeep cost for having a brain, but why is sleep in different species the way it is?




The last theory I'd heard was that, in humans, sleep is a means of keeping us out of trouble.

I.e., if you're sacked out in the cave/tree branch, you're not going to be wandering around in the dark stumbling over tree branches and jaguars.

Really, I suspect there's a certain level of sleep required for almost all animals, and then circumstances dictate how much any given type requires.  Predators don't NEED to sleep a lot, but they can and do to save energy.

Brad


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## Kahuna Burger (Dec 14, 2007)

cignus_pfaccari said:
			
		

> The last theory I'd heard was that, in humans, sleep is a means of keeping us out of trouble.
> 
> I.e., if you're sacked out in the cave/tree branch, you're not going to be wandering around in the dark stumbling over tree branches and jaguars.
> 
> ...



hrm, whether it was the original cause or not, human brains do need sleep, esp certain stages of it. It's not just a matter of physical energy recharge.


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## werk (Dec 14, 2007)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> hrm, whether it was the original cause or not, human brains do need sleep, esp certain stages of it. It's not just a matter of physical energy recharge.




I like this interesting tangent...do Fish or Insects sleep?

Are there any species of higher life that do not require sleep?

I know these is no sort of relation between mental faculties and sleep because my cats sleep all the time and have yet to do anything truly remarkable.

Dec 2012...the sleeper has awakened?


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## Rackhir (Dec 14, 2007)

werk said:
			
		

> I like this interesting tangent...do Fish or Insects sleep?
> 
> Are there any species of higher life that do not require sleep?
> 
> ...




Fish do apparently. Insects it is unclear. Neither sleep in quite the way we do, but both have states in which they are resting, inactive and unresponsive to mild stimuluses.

'Insects
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/minsectsleep.html
'Fish
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22598006-30417,00.html


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## megamania (Dec 14, 2007)

Numion said:
			
		

> Um yeah, sure. .. I have a vision coming in right now: Hmmmmm ..  I see that tomorrow morning I'll ....hmmmm..... wake up around ....hmmmmmm.... 8 o'clock, shower, get dressed, eat and go to work.
> 
> I'll get back to you tomorrow how it worked out  :\





what happens when you educate a dumbass?   You get a smartass.


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## AnonymousOne (Dec 14, 2007)

Ah ...  if the end of the world is arriving I'll meet and greet it with a Long Island Iced Tea in my hand.


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## Rackhir (Dec 14, 2007)

AnonymousOne said:
			
		

> Ah ...  if the end of the world is arriving I'll meet and greet it with a Long Island Iced Tea in my hand.




Trying to get it drunk and have your way with it?


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## Merkuri (Dec 14, 2007)

AnonymousOne said:
			
		

> Ah ...  if the end of the world is arriving I'll meet and greet it with a Long Island Iced Tea in my hand.




Is there a restaurant at the end of the world?  Perhaps one where the cows will come out and ask me what part of them I'd like to eat today?


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## drothgery (Dec 15, 2007)

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> January 19th 2038. At that point unix timestamps can no longer be stored with a 32 bit integer.  PHP currently doesn't handle 64 bit integers well, and post times are stored using unix timestamps - so on January 19th 2038 the clock stops if I don't have the upgrade done by then.
> 
> Ahem, it will be done quite a bit sooner than then though




Whereas over in Windows-land, COM dates and .NET dates run out in 9999. Microsoft plans on being around a *long* time .


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## Numion (Dec 16, 2007)

megamania said:
			
		

> what happens when you educate a dumbass?   You get a smartass.




Your predictions are spot on! 

Could you clue me in on the norwegian lottery numbers for next week? PM please..


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## Alisair Longreach (Dec 17, 2007)

Some authors of books about the Mayan calender says that the end date of the calender is 21 dec 2012. A couple of other authors have made some calculations and place the end date late oct 2011.

Then there are those who say the calender is off by 5 years so 2007 = 2012.

Then we have the masonic conspiracy about the city plan of Washington D.C. with a timeline stretching from the Washington Monument to the White House. For further details, view the Secret of Washington D.C. videos on Youtube.

In the Book of Revelation there is mentioned a Woman clothed in garments of the sun with the moon at her feet and stars above her head who will go int hiding for 3.5 years and give birth to a man-child. Some interpret this passage as referring to a Venus Transit. A Venus Transit is when Venus crosses the face of the Sun. The last one happened june 4 2004. Do the math. There is speculation about an upcoming solar flare killshot on some conspiracy forums.

Happy Christmas (if we get one).


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## ssampier (Dec 17, 2007)

I am not worried. My tin-foil hat works just fine.



			
				Merkuri said:
			
		

> Is there a restaurant at the end of the world?  Perhaps one where the cows will come out and ask me what part of them I'd like to eat today?


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## Rackhir (Dec 17, 2007)

Alisair Longreach said:
			
		

> Some authors of books about the Mayan calender says that the end date of the calender is 21 dec 2012. A couple of other authors have made some calculations and place the end date late oct 2011.
> 
> Then there are those who say the calender is off by 5 years so 2007 = 2012.




Are you trying to imply that the aliens might have given the Mayan's the wrong date?


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## Alisair Longreach (Dec 17, 2007)

The first authors of the Mayan calendar books might have miscalculated the end date, or worse, deliberately placed the end date five years further out in a disnformation attempt.

This end date should also coincide with a planetary cross alignment. Interestingly 23 december this year the planets do line up in a cross formation at the same time as a full moon and with with three visible comets. The Sun has also just begun a new solar maximum sunspot cycle.

This year we might have a very interesting christmas.


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## Rackhir (Dec 17, 2007)

Alisair Longreach said:
			
		

> The first authors of the Mayan calendar books might have miscalculated the end date, or worse, deliberately placed the end date five years further out in a disnformation attempt.
> 
> This end date should also coincide with a planetary cross alignment. Interestingly 23 december this year the planets do line up in a cross formation at the same time as a full moon and with with three visible comets. The Sun has also just begun a new solar maximum sunspot cycle.
> 
> This year we might have a very interesting christmas.




I'll worry about things like planetary alignments when they revoke the inverse square law in physics.

To make this a bit clearer.

Standing on the surface of the earth, the force I exert on the earth is roughly about 10^12 times greater than the force that Pluto exerts. (It's been a long time since physics class so I might be off a couple of orders of magnitude). So remember this next time someone start babbling about "Planetary" or "stellar" alignment and remember things drop off as the square of the distance.


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## Umbran (Dec 17, 2007)

Alisair Longreach said:
			
		

> This end date should also coincide with a planetary cross alignment. Interestingly 23 december this year the planets do line up in a cross formation at the same time as a full moon and with with three visible comets. The Sun has also just begun a new solar maximum sunspot cycle.




"Just begun the cycle" means "is currently at a solar _minimum_". The next solar maximum is about five an a half years from now - closer to 2012 than 2007.


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