# Werewolf: the Apocalypse 5th Edition Trailer



## Stacie GmrGrl (Dec 7, 2019)

Very cool. Been looking forward to this since V5 came out.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Dec 7, 2019)

Why a parnetship with Hunter Entermainent? OK, it is their business, their money, and they can to do they want. But Hunter Entermainent has got som link or contact with D&D.

I love the changing breeds, even I bought the book of the Wyrm 20 An because it had got new races, but adding too much and WoD becomes Jurassic Park. My solution? Easy, a fantasy reality counterpart as 7th Sea. 

I have bought some books of W:tA and I am not interesting to buy the new edition only to get the updated crunch. 

I don't like the garous very much because their idea of recovering the natural balance is mankind come back to the prehistory, or pre-industrial revolution age. And I hate reading some text about I have to feel guilty because I live in the Western civilitation and my country's economy needs some sacrifices to save the planet but Chinese or Russian pollution has total impunity. Why not a Pentex's brother with an Arabian, Russian or Chinese name? Why not to talk about bioregenation, the curtivated fields to clean the pollution? I hate that speech about the Weaver is the evil and guilty because Wyrm became mad.


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## Arilyn (Dec 7, 2019)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> Why a parnetship with Hunter Entermainent? OK, it is their business, their money, and they can to do they want. But Hunter Entermainent has got som link or contact with D&D.
> 
> I love the changing breeds, even I bought the book of the Wyrm 20 An because it had got new races, but adding too much and WoD becomes Jurassic Park. My solution? Easy, a fantasy reality counterpart as 7th Sea.
> 
> ...



The garou tribes have differing ideas on how to save the planet. One tribe wants to wipe out humanity, one wants to return humanity to a pre-industrial state, one wants to join with humans to arrive at solutions, one actually believes technology is the key, and so on. This brings on the tension, as the garou must somehow forge an alliance and a solution to the imbalance. I always felt the whole weaver, wyrm, wild was more of a tragedy, and less one being more evil than the other. The garou all have their own ideas on this, of course. 

I don't think the authors want to pick on just western civilization. It's just that they live in the west and don't want to throw stones at other cultures. 

Nobody is expecting us to feel guilty. Many things feel beyond our control in this world. Games give us power, even if it is only in our imaginations. It's cathartic, and might give us a little confidence and hope to do some real good in the real world.


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## PabloM (Dec 7, 2019)

I don't get it. Wasn't it that Modiphius was going to take care of the 5th edition of WoD after the last White Wolf controversy?


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## LuisCarlos17f (Dec 7, 2019)

This is strange, it sound like a future change of owner. I am not against parnertship, but the different lines of WoD should have got some coordination about metaplot. I wonder about WotC buying other TTRPGs publishers. 

Garous says Doctor Doom should rule the world to save the ecosystem and the kingdom of Wakanda should reject the high-tech.


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## EthanSental (Dec 7, 2019)

That teaser didn’t strike a cord with me....definitely appeals to someone who knows the setting and such.  My last foray in the world of darkness was early 2000 and had fun with it (2nd edition) but this teaser doesn’t stoke the interest to jump back in...its missing something for me I guess.


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## Morrus (Dec 8, 2019)

PabloM said:


> I don't get it. Wasn't it that Modiphius was going to take care of the 5th edition of WoD after the last White Wolf controversy?



Just Vampire.


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## Tonguez (Dec 8, 2019)

If I had never heard of WoD I would have no idea what this game teaser was selling me - I’d guess post apocalyptic monster hunting but PCs are the monsters?


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## Anoth (Dec 8, 2019)

Personally I don’t think the lore after vampire 2E was good. I hope they do a better job on werewolf 5E. Now I do like some of the mechanical changes. Just not the fluff. Looking forward to reading the books.


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## The White Sorcerer (Dec 8, 2019)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> This is strange, it sound like a future change of owner. [snip] I wonder about WotC buying other TTRPGs publishers.



On what basis are you jumping to these conclusions?


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## LuisCarlos17f (Dec 8, 2019)

Hunter Enternaiment has published some things linked to D&D. If Hasbro bought Enternaiment One, and WotC bought Turque, the videogame studio, I guess it is possible, maybe, but I couldn't say when this will happen.

It is still too strange for me a partnership with other company with a line what is linked to one of the most important franchises of TTRPGs industry. It is too risky because different companies could cause some accidental contradiction in the canon lore. Hunter Enternaiment is a "little fish" in this industry, too little for a smashing-hit as WoD. There is something what doesn't fit. 

* I suggest as new changing breed the stryx, wereowls, created by Gaia to be psychopomps, sentinels of the barriers of the afterlife, but after suffering a almost total genocide in the war of the rage they become creatures as predators on vampires in CoD. 

* If the wym created the mockery races I would bet the weaver will create helm werevernims.


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## Dire Bare (Dec 8, 2019)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> Hunter Enternaiment has published some things linked to D&D. If Hasbro bought Enternaiment One, and WotC bought Turque, the videogame studio, I guess it is possible, maybe, but I couldn't say when this will happen.
> 
> It is still too strange for me a partnership with other company with a line what is linked to one of the most important franchises of TTRPGs industry. It is too risky because different companies could cause some accidental contradiction in the canon lore. Hunter Enternaiment is a "little fish" in this industry, too little for a smashing-hit as WoD. There is something what doesn't fit.
> 
> ...




So, Hunters Entertainment published the "1-2-3's of D&D" and the "A-B-C's of D&D", two children's books, and so make a bad choice to develop Werewolf in partnership with Paradox and Renegade Games?!?!

Oooookay . . . .


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## Birmy (Dec 8, 2019)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> And I hate reading some text about I have to feel guilty because I live in the Western civilitation and my country's economy needs some sacrifices to save the planet but Chinese or Russian pollution has total impunity. Why not a Pentex's brother with an Arabian, Russian or Chinese name?




Why do you keep trying to steer these threads into political territory? This isn't the first time you've tried to derail a thread. You know the rules around here.



> It is still too strange for me a partnership with other company with a line what is linked to one of the most important franchises of TTRPGs industry. It is too risky because different companies could cause some accidental contradiction in the canon lore. Hunter Enternaiment is a "little fish" in this industry, too little for a smashing-hit as WoD. There is something what doesn't fit.




There's plenty of precedent for a larger game company contracting a smaller company for development (e.g., Kobold Press and Sasquatch Games did the first D&D 5e adventures and White Wolf's own relationship with Onyx Path). I imagine the strength of and reception to _Kids on Bikes_ got them the gig. And even the "big fish" in this industry aren't all that big. I don't think there's anything here to get concerned, or wildly speculate, about.


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## zhivik (Dec 8, 2019)

I’ve seen some of the work Ivan Van Norman has done - mostly limited RPG series - and I believe the franchise is in good hands. He thinks outside of the box and I am looking forward to what he and the team will come up with.

It is a reason to be interested in the new reincarnation of Werewolf: the Apocalypse, because I’ve always been a Forsaken fan. I just found the whole setting setup as too one-dimensional and too ... gimmicky, for lack of a better word. I much more prefer the shamanistic feel of Forsaken, it feels more natural to me.


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## zhivik (Dec 8, 2019)

Birmy said:


> There's plenty of precedent for a larger game company contracting a smaller company for development (e.g., Kobold Press and Sasquatch Games did the first D&D 5e adventures and White Wolf's own relationship with Onyx Path). I imagine the strength of and reception to _Kids on Bikes_ got them the gig. And even the "big fish" in this industry aren't all that big. I don't think there's anything here to get concerned, or wildly speculate, about.




The situation with Onyx Path is somewhat unique, as it became the home for many of the writers and game designers that CCP, White Wolf’s previous owner, let go. Many of the authors of the original game lines, like Rose Bailey, Eddy Webb, Matthew McFarland, Dave Brookshaw, Ethan Skemp, collaborate frequently with them. Onyx Path is essentially a reincarnation of the old White Wolf, if you ask me.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Dec 8, 2019)

_- Books published by Black Dog Games have to be burnt, they are tainted.

- What has said that, other brainless zealot from Leopolde's Society?

- The Garous.

- Oh then they are right._

---

I suggest, as new anthagonists, to add "god's hounds", fomori catched by inquisitors (Leopolde's Society) and _(almost totally)_ healed by their exorcists. Then they become dangerous allies and predators about garous, fare and the rest of fomori or mockery breeds.

We agree when we spend our money on speculative fiction titles we don't want annoying propaganda. But worse when authors who teorically want you to open your eyes really are hidding some facts. Sorry, but I am seing in the real life there are many wolves with sheep's clothing, people who are like supervillains from comics, as Doctor Doom, trying to rule the world with the speech it is neccessary to save us. Don't trust those false saviors. Some things make me remember Michael Crichton's "State of Fear". 

Haven't you thoutght Wyrm wouldn't want to use also other multinational companies from different continents and not only Pentex as puppet, why only one tentacle to taint when you can use more?


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## PMárk (Dec 8, 2019)

Based on V5, I'm just not interested. The new edition's direction is jut not my WoD and Vampire and this likely will be the same. 

Also, I just can't imagine they can pull it off without going full-throttle into political controversies.


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## Ranger REG (Dec 8, 2019)

Is it going to be a reboot of the WoD setting, or just an improvement/overhaul on the rules system?


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## FallenAkriel (Dec 9, 2019)

Arilyn said:


> d





LuisCarlos17f said:


> Why a parnetship with Hunter Entermainent? OK, it is their business, their money, and they can to do they want. But Hunter Entermainent has got som link or contact with D&D.
> 
> I love the changing breeds, even I bought the book of the Wyrm 20 An because it had got new races, but adding too much and WoD becomes Jurassic Park. My solution? Easy, a fantasy reality counterpart as 7th Sea.
> 
> ...




You are clearly a Glass Walker


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## Ravenbrook (Dec 9, 2019)

I certainly would be interested in playing a werewolf (or other type of were-creature), I just don't care about all the "defenders of Gaia" thing. If I purchased the rules I would have to ditch the entire backstory and create a new one based on actual folklore. The price of this book (and any supplements) would probably hardly make it worthwhile.


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## Paragon Lost (Dec 9, 2019)

Birmy said:


> Why do you keep trying to steer these threads into political territory? This isn't the first time you've tried to derail a thread. You know the rules around here.
> 
> 
> 
> There's plenty of precedent for a larger game company contracting a smaller company for development (e.g., Kobold Press and Sasquatch Games did the first D&D 5e adventures and White Wolf's own relationship with Onyx Path). I imagine the strength of and reception to _Kids on Bikes_ got them the gig. And even the "big fish" in this industry aren't all that big. I don't think there's anything here to get concerned, or wildly speculate, about.




 It's why I've taken to not really responding to their posts. Which sucks but there ya go.


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## macd21 (Dec 9, 2019)

Dear god that trailer was awful. Not holding out much hope for 5th ed.


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## macd21 (Dec 10, 2019)

I’m really kind of surprised by this, TBH. How the hell did Hunters Entertainment get the license? From the looks of it they’re a tiny company with a tiny (if cute) list of products to their name. Was there really no one with a good track record willing to step up?


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## Jer (Dec 10, 2019)

macd21 said:


> I’m really kind of surprised by this, TBH. How the hell did Hunters Entertainment get the license? From the looks of it they’re a tiny company with a tiny (if cute) list of products to their name. Was there really no one with a good track record willing to step up?




Why would they?  What's in it for them?  The game with the biggest fan base is Vampire and it's the one that is going to make the money.  So if you can't have Vampire why would you bid on the others?  The companies that would take a chance on that model would be small ones who can make money off of the relatively smaller fanbase for the non-Vampire games because they have less overhead.


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## Anoth (Dec 10, 2019)

Here’s hoping they make a good product. They have an opportunity. Best wishes for them.


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## macd21 (Dec 10, 2019)

Jer said:


> Why would they?  What's in it for them?  The game with the biggest fan base is Vampire and it's the one that is going to make the money.  So if you can't have Vampire why would you bid on the others?  The companies that would take a chance on that model would be small ones who can make money off of the relatively smaller fanbase for the non-Vampire games because they have less overhead.




While it wasn’t Vampire, I would have thought Werewolf is a big enough property that it would have been worth it for a bigger company. Just surprised is all.


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## Reynard (Dec 10, 2019)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> _- Books published by Black Dog Games have to be burnt, they are tainted.
> 
> - What has said that, other brainless zealot from Leopolde's Society?
> 
> ...




All fiction is political, but in particular speculative fiction is inherently political. You cannot create a new world without saying something about how you feel about this one. It's literally impossible. Every world building, character, theme or plot choice you make is a political statement.

But I don't suspect you dislike politics in games and fiction. I suspect you dislike politics with which you disagree.


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## EthanSental (Dec 10, 2019)

Reynard said:


> But I don't suspect you dislike politics in games and fiction. I suspect you dislike politics with which you disagree.




Learned through marriage counseling, try to stay away from “you” statements as they tend to put the individual on the defensive.  I can easily see Luis take this the wrong way and reply in response.   A little civility and decorum goes a long way


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## LuisCarlos17f (Dec 10, 2019)

Saying with the softest words isn't easy for me. 

It is really annoying for me when an author of a work of speculative fiction shows his own point of view about some matter from reality, and I am suspecting he is trying me to feel guilty because I am not doing things like he says. I am seing a lot of lies and ignorance. Do you know anything about the XV-XIX little ice age after medieval warm age? Don't you know the most polluting ones in the world are state companies? Have you readen about who were the true responsible of the last forest arsons in Brasil? Or about bioregeneration to fight the pollution? We are in the age of graphene and biofuels. We still can repair the nature, but we have to recognice the false prophets. We don't need stupid catastrophism but faith in ourself, hope we can fix things for a better world. The fatalism is against the spirit by the true fighters. 

I am angry, not because fiction is used to show the diagnosis about a problem, but when I notice a demagoge, swindler charlatin is trying to sell his snake oil, false medicine.  

Pentex is the Wyrm's blue-eyed boy... but why only-beggoten when more multinational companies could be corrupted and used to poison the planet? Why to put all the eggs only in one egg, betting all with one card? Why not to create friendnemy little brothers  from Africa or Asia where Pentex isn't allowed to act because it's a foreigner company? Why not to create fictional tongs or bratvas as antagonists for werewolves or vampires? 

* Wyrm could create a new mockery breed, the wardogs, but some are hunted alive by the inquisition, and with exorcisms, or high-tech they "digievolution" toward other state, almost healed, with code name "HundHimmels"


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## Anoth (Dec 10, 2019)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> Saying with the softest words isn't easy for me.
> 
> It is really annoying for me when an author of a work of speculative fiction shows his own point of view about some matter from reality, and I am suspecting he is trying me to feel guilty because I am not doing things like he says. I am seing a lot of lies and ignorance. Do you know anything about the XV-XIX little ice age after medieval warm age? Don't you know the most polluting ones in the world are state companies? Have you readen about who were the true responsible of the last forest arsons in Brasil? Or about bioregeneration to fight the pollution? We are in the age of graphene and biofuels. We still can repair the nature, but we have to recognice the false prophets. We don't need stupid catastrophism but faith in ourself, hope we can fix things for a better world. The fatalism is against the spirit by the true fighters.
> 
> ...




yeah I am kind of sick of it on both sides. I like a kind of appeal to universal principles.  But mainly because I don’t share their principles. It gets old when one just wants a little entertainment and not worry about modern concerns for a little bit.

I wonder if we are going to have to have d&d tables segregated by ideological views.


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## Umbran (Dec 10, 2019)

macd21 said:


> Dear god that trailer was awful. Not holding out much hope for 5th ed.




Well, game design and marketing trailer production are not the same skillset.  Beign bad at one doesn't mean you're bad at the other.


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## Umbran (Dec 10, 2019)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> It is really annoying for me when an author of a work of speculative fiction shows his own point of view about some matter from reality, and I am suspecting he is trying me to feel guilty because I am not doing things like he says.




Then, here's the secret - DON'T BUY THE GAME.  

Pretty simple, really.  You get to vote with your dollars.

Continuing to trash talk a game _that hasn't even been published yet_ seems... less than constructive.


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## zhivik (Dec 11, 2019)

PMárk said:


> Based on V5, I'm just not interested. The new edition's direction is jut not my WoD and Vampire and this likely will be the same.
> 
> Also, I just can't imagine they can pull it off without going full-throttle into political controversies.




One quick note here - the very reason why Paradox handed off development of of future Vampire 5e books to Modiphius was the lacklustre books that were initially published. We haven't seen anything come out of Modiphius for Vampire yet, so there isn't really any ground to judge whether quality will improve or remain the same. Modiphius is a respected RPG developer, though, so I'd give them the benefit of the doubt.

I'd say Paradox have learned their lesson and decided to hand over the development of a tabletop RPG to someone who knows what they are doing, since they turned out not as good as they hoped they would be. Thus, handing Werewolf to an outside developer may be actually a good thing.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Dec 11, 2019)

I am not against outside developers, but I am surprised when one of most famous franchises are for a new publisher.

One of the main matters of WotC is about the enviromental care. We agree we have to respect the nature and take care of the planet because it is our responsibility and our legacy for the future generations. Then... what is the matter? The root of this trouble is in the ecocatatrophism, a too pessimistic vision about our future. This is not only annoying, but this may be even dangerous. Why? The first reason is if we are blinded by our fear then we could be tricked to blame the wrong people when the true responsibble are other. The second reason is the false prophets of the ecology will try sell us their snake oil, false remedies, for example higher taxes. The third reason is if we abuse of the dark tone in the fiction we could be causing prelearnt helplessness, when we lose faith in ourself. A true warrior not only has to defeat the fear of death, but also to fight with enough hope to can face the sacrifice and the suffering.

Other of the main threads in WoD games is about the conflicts caused by the intolerance and the fanaticism, and here WW authors have forgotten very important lessons: we have to obey the Natural Law, and the respect for the human dignity, the base of our rights as people, as citizens. Without the Natural Law then we become monsters or zealots and the society is doomed to decadence and autodestruction. If we want to use the fiction to fight the fanaticism then we have to teach how to avoid be manipulated by demagoges when theses uses these feelings to blind our reason: fear, pride, envy, desire, resentment, shame, guilty, 

If a TTRPG is set in our real life, then sometimes some historical facts have to be mentioned or remembered, for examle the Chinese ecological disaster of the kill sparrows campaign, the disaster of the river Tetcha, the nuclear landfill in the lake Karachay, the biological accident in Sverdlovsk, the "black dragon" fire forest (between Russian and Chinese frontier), the fire of Kursha-2, the great Tzar bomb in the island Severny, the toxic lake of Geamana (Rumany), or Linfen (China), the most polluted river in the world.

We know Pentex is the archenemy of the garous and the rest of changing breeds, but I am surprised because apparently the Technocracy, the ultimate nephandi slayers, haven't noticed yet that Pentx is rotten to the core. Even the Weaver should notice if Pentex is the enemy puppet, then technocracy has to be used against this.


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## Ravenbrook (Dec 12, 2019)

@LuisCarlos17f It would be good if they published two separate books: One a pure rule book and the other a setting book for people who are interested in the "eco-warrior" genre. I would certainly buy a rule book, but then create a different setting for it.


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## zhivik (Dec 12, 2019)

Ravenbrook said:


> @LuisCarlos17f It would be good if they published two separate books: One a pure rule book and the other a setting book for people who are interested in the "eco-warrior" genre. I would certainly buy a rule book, but then create a different setting for it.




It's funny that you mention that, because it was the very idea Chronicles of Darkness (back then named "New World of Darkness") was built on back in 2004. The first edition of Chronicles of Darkness had a separate rule book and everything else simply built upon it, adding rules only when necessary (like those for the supernatural templates - Vampire, Werewolf, Mage). One of the considerations was to reduce printing costs by making books smaller.

Let me tell you, it wasn't a very popular solution. A lot of people complained that it wasn't fair to buy two books to play a Chronicles of Darkness game, which is why they dropped the approach in second edition and now all books have full rules. I guess the shift to digital publishing also played a role, as it doesn't really matter if the PDF you get is a couple of MBs larger.

Yet, here is a funny thing. The decision to have the basic rules in a separate book gave birth to a new line of campaigns, with mortal characters only. Some people realised they didn't have to add a supernatural template to play a game, because you already had a complete rule set. It became so popular that White Wolf started releasing books with additional rules and lore for mortal games only, an approach that has been carried over in the second edition of Chronicles of Darkness.


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## Umbran (Dec 12, 2019)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> If a TTRPG is set in our real life, then sometimes some historical facts have to be mentioned or remembered...




Except, of course, there are more historical facts that, "have to be remembered," than will fit into a game book.  Far, far more.  So, they have to pick and choose.

We understand, very clearly, that you don't like which ones they picked.  Really.  We get it.  You can stop beating that drum.  Your point as been made several times over.

But, again, I have to remind you - the game you are complaining about _hasn't been written yet_.  Historically, yes, they've not bothered much with the damage some other nations have done.  But continuing to carp on it to us does nothing.  Take it up with the people writing the game.



> We know Pentex is the archenemy of the garous and the rest of changing breeds, but I am surprised because apparently the Technocracy, the ultimate nephandi slayers, haven't noticed yet that Pentx is rotten to the core. Even the Weaver should notice if Pentex is the enemy puppet, then technocracy has to be used against this.




Well, no.  Because the games are stand-alone and separate, unless you make them otherwise.  Nephandi (and even awakened Mages, and the Technocracy) don't exist in your werewolf game unless you cram them together.  And if you are playing Mage, Pentex doesn't exist...

The simple solution to your conundrum is to note that the Technocracy is not a single organization (so, beset with internal rivalries so that cooperation isn't the word of the day), and that they are more driven by humans than exterior spiritual forces (after all, the Weaver and Wyrm have as much trouble getting their claws into an awakened mage as they do a garou).  

A garou would naively conclude based on appearances that they are all completely under sway of the Weaver, but garou are generally unsubtle in their fanatic views of others.


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## Seramus (Dec 12, 2019)

Onyx Path IS White Wolf in all but legal name. So it's certainly a little strange to see a different company working on this.

I wish them all the luck in the world either way.


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## zhivik (Dec 12, 2019)

Umbran said:


> Well, no.  Because the games are stand-alone and separate, unless you make them otherwise.  Nephandi (and even awakened Mages, and the Technocracy) don't exist in your werewolf game unless you cram them together.  And if you are playing Mage, Pentex doesn't exist...




This an interesting point, though. If I remember correctly, and I believe I do, when Paradox acquired the White Wolf IPs from CCP, they said they wanted to do a One World of Darkness, in other words a single shared universe. Since we have only Vampire books released so far, we don’t know if this plan is still in motion. Yet, it is possible that we may have a universe where Pentex and Mage may co-exist, you never know ...



Seramus said:


> Onyx Path IS White Wolf in all but legal name. So it's certainly a little strange to see a different company working on this.
> 
> I wish them all the luck in the world either way.




Well, Onyx Path seem to have a lot on their plate right now. They’ve just completed a Mummy 2nd edition Kickstarter campaign, they plan a book with streamlined rules for Exalted and they have a number of books for Chronicles of Darkness and their own lines (Scion, Trinity Continuum, Pugmire, Cavaliers of Mars) in the pipeline. While Onyx Path doesn’t seem to shy away from working on World of Darkness projects, they seem to be more willing to keep developing Chronicles of Darkness and their own IPs, which looks to be going well for them.


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## Umbran (Dec 12, 2019)

zhivik said:


> This an interesting point, though. If I remember correctly, and I believe I do, when Paradox acquired the White Wolf IPs from CCP, they said they wanted to do a One World of Darkness, in other words a single shared universe.




If they are farming out different games to different groups for development, that seems unlikely.  Managing continuity in such a situation would be a bear.


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## zhivik (Dec 13, 2019)

Umbran said:


> If they are farming out different games to different groups for development, that seems unlikely.  Managing continuity in such a situation would be a bear.




You are most probably right, it will be a real hassle to co-ordinate across different developers. Still, I’d love to see them try. One of the big advantages I find in Chronicles of Darkness is the option for crossover play, which you could never do in World of Darkness due to balance issues (the lines are well balanced within themselves, though).


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## LuisCarlos17f (Dec 13, 2019)

I hate the cosmovision about Order-Chaos by WW. The true order isn't frozen, but dinamic, the right balance has to be flexible to adapt when new changes arrive. Chaos doesn't mean better creativity, but the artists needs discipline and hard-work to create. Order isn't ice freezing the landscape but sap circulating within a tree. Order is like traffic code to avoid accidents or collapsed roads. 

_I hate the normalites, those fomories created by psychiatic centers where are sent convicted oby judicial sentences of supposed homophobia crimes to receive terapy for their prejudices, or those trans fomoris created by Pentex clinics for sex-change operations ._ (Disclaimer: Only I was kidding)

Or the serpent brotherhood, a secret society for children of the elite, in the beggining it is only to hold parties with (very, very, very) young girls and some animals sacrifices, to get contacts and favours by hidden lobbies but later they go to wilder things... special rituals, and then when they are recorded by video and blackmailed for the rest of their lives, they can join to the "lobbies", secret groups with great influences among the highest spheres or politics, mass media or economy. (Do you know the skulls movies? now let's imagine this with fomoris acting as skurll secret invasion or the invasion of body snatchers). Isn't a nightmare to think all candidates you could vote are members of the serpent brotherhood? It would be like Home Simpsons only could vote Kang or Kodos. 

I see WoD as a shared universe, with linked metaplots. 

WoD is gothic-punk dark urban fantasy, but if we add too many monsters then it becomes a Jurrasic Park for gothic monsters and we lose the feeling monsters are hidden among us. Then I would rather a fantasy world as Ravenloft.


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## Umbran (Dec 13, 2019)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> I hate the cosmovision about Order-Chaos by WW. The true order isn't frozen, but dinamic, the right balance has to be flexible to adapt when new changes arrive...




You are describing a healthy universe, where things are going well.

The cosmology of WW is that these things _are out of balance_ in the era of play.  The Wyld, Weaver, and Wyrm are supposed to be a triumverate in cooperation, but are not.  The World of Darkness is _unhealthy_, and that gives the base source of conflicts of issues for the games.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Dec 13, 2019)

Man, I am never going to get the Hunter: The Vigil second edition/reboot I've been hoping for, am I?


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## The White Sorcerer (Dec 14, 2019)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Man, I am never going to get the Hunter: The Vigil second edition/reboot I've been hoping for, am I?



They do seem to have skipped it and Geist and moved straight to Mummy 2nd Edition, though I'm not losing hope just yet. For Hunter, that is. I've pretty much resigned myself to never seeing anything Geist-related ever again.


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## macd21 (Dec 14, 2019)

The White Sorcerer said:


> They do seem to have skipped it and Geist and moved straight to Mummy 2nd Edition, though I'm not losing hope just yet. For Hunter, that is. I've pretty much resigned myself to never seeing anything Geist-related ever again.




Er, they kickstarted Geist 2 last year.


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## Birmy (Dec 14, 2019)

The White Sorcerer said:


> I've pretty much resigned myself to never seeing anything Geist-related ever again.




Like macd21 said: Geist: The Sin-Eaters, Second Edition


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## The White Sorcerer (Dec 14, 2019)

macd21 said:


> Er, they kickstarted Geist 2 last year.



They did? Cool! Then I've renewed hope for Hunter as well.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Dec 14, 2019)

The WoD Cosmology is Weaver-Wyrd-Wyrm, an evolution of Chaos vs Law by Michale Moorcock's work, and this is a variant of the classic manicheism good vs evil. This is wrong. The idea of a cosmic balance between light and dark sides of the Force as ying and yang is wrong. Has to happen a zombie apocalypse in any place to restore the balance because happy ponies from Equestria kingdom are too good? The chaos-law conflict in speculative fiction is only a stupid allegory about teenage rebellion again patriarchal authority. When you have to work hard for a better for the future generations then you notice many demagoges have been lying to sell their snake oils, fale remedies. 

Garou have no idea about cultural war. They only want to destroy everything they don't like, even another changing breeds in the past. They don't notice the root of the trouble is if population is controlled by an elite little group, this can be tainted faster. They want to use a chainsaw when a scapel is better option to remove a cancer. Any time in your games Pentex CEOs showed off to be the most Nature defenders when they were doing the opposite? This is happening in the real life, for example when my president likes to fly by Falcone airplane, but he goes by electric car to the convention for the climatic change. Total hipocrisy 

If White Wolf/Onyx Path wants to use the speculative fiction to report the fanaticism then they can't forget the right path, recover ethical values like responsability, self-controll, sacrifice, the moral principles of *Natural Law*, as the *respect for the human dignity*. Reporting hate and prejudices isn't enogh when the true key for a better coexistence is forgiveness and mutual trust.


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## Derren (Dec 15, 2019)

Now I am a bit confused. Isn't Apocalype the Old World of Darkness? I thought the new Werewolf line are the Forsaken?
Have they switched back to oWoD or are both lines running in parallel?


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## The White Sorcerer (Dec 15, 2019)

Derren said:


> Have they switched back to oWoD or are both lines running in parallel?



The latter. In fact, I think there are currently THREE parallel Vampire lines. Requiem, Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition, and Masquerade 5th Edition.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Dec 15, 2019)

Derren said:


> Now I am a bit confused. Isn't Apocalype the Old World of Darkness? I thought the new Werewolf line are the Forsaken?
> Have they switched back to oWoD or are both lines running in parallel?



Now they are both, running in parallel, the classic or old WoD, and the new one, now called "Chronicles of Darkness". We can say the d20 Anniversay Ed. has been the 4th Ed.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Dec 15, 2019)

The White Sorcerer said:


> The latter. In fact, I think there are currently THREE parallel Vampire lines. Requiem, Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition, and Masquerade 5th Edition.



Are there yet new titles for V20? I thought all had published and we wouldn't see new tittles.


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## zhivik (Dec 15, 2019)

The White Sorcerer said:


> The latter. In fact, I think there are currently THREE parallel Vampire lines. Requiem, Masquerade 20th Anniversary Edition, and Masquerade 5th Edition.




20th Anniversary Editions are not separate lines but a kind of a revisited edition for each main line (Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, Changeling, Wraith, Dark Ages). Rules and storylines have been cleaned up, the books offer plenty of options which version of the end-gaming events for each line happened (including none at all), etc. They are the best versions of classic World of Darkness lines at the moment, in my opinion.

In the case of Vampire, the 20th anniversary edition is effectively its fourth edition, as it comes after two numbered editions (first and second) and a revised one (third). It is why the books published recently are 5th edition. If I remember correctly, Paradox intends to keep the 5th edition label for all lines, to avoid confusion.

Meanwhile, Chronicles of Darkness lines have never stopped being developed and published, they only switched from White Wolf to Onyx Path after CCP, the owner of White Wolf before Paradox, started letting go WW developers. One of the first things Paradox did after acquiring WW was to introduce the “Chronicles of Darkness” label, as the previous name, “New World of Darkness”, was often confusing. Chronicles of Darkness lines (Requiem, Forsaken, Awakening, etc.) are now in their second edition and Paradox seem to be happy how things are going, so I expect Onyx Path to keep developing new books.

I believe there are still a few books in development for 20A editions currently at Onyx Path, but you need to check their site for more info. It’s best to look at the Monday Notes posts, they always have a list with ongoing projects at the end. However, I doubt there will be new books commissioned after those in development are completed, especially after books for a newer edition are in the pipeline.


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## The White Sorcerer (Dec 15, 2019)

zhivik said:


> 20th Anniversary Editions are not separate lines but a kind of a revisited edition for each main line (Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, Changeling, Wraith, Dark Ages).



I'd say it's still a distinct line. The way I see it, there was the original World of Darkness, which ended its run in 2004, and there are three "successors." We got New World/Chronicles of Darkness, which was a full reboot. Then later we got the 20th Anniversary editions which are just slightly updated compilations of Classic WoD material, but they still get supplements so it counts as a gameline rather than just being a one-off thing. And then there's 5th Edition, which is kind of a soft reboot, since the world is still the same but things are different enough that it feels new.

So the 20th Anniversary editions might be limited runs, but they're still running parellel to two other products and potentially confusing for someone who's looking to get into Vampire.

EDIT: Holy Kindred Jesus, was the 20th Anniversary Edition really 8 years ago already? I suddenly feel very old.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Dec 15, 2019)

Will we see a 30 Ann of Kindred of East, Demon: the Fall, Hunter: the Reckoning or Mummy: Resurecction?


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## Umbran (Dec 15, 2019)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> The WoD Cosmology is Weaver-Wyrd-Wyrm, an evolution of Chaos vs Law by Michale Moorcock's work, and this is a variant of the classic manicheism good vs evil. This is wrong. The idea of a cosmic balance between light and dark sides of the Force as ying and yang is wrong.




With respect - it is _FICTIONAL_.  

Have you not noticed that these games have... werewolves, vampires, and stuff?  You know, it is incorrect to say those things exist... but it is a game.

D&D... it has gods for clerics to worship... those are wrong, too, right?  I mean, they don't reflect our real world.

You don't have to _like_ what WW does.  But to say an entirely fictional metaphysical system is wrong is kind of like saying the image for the Enterprise NCC-1701-D is _wrong_.  It isn't right or wrong - it is made up!


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## Ruin Explorer (Dec 16, 2019)

Umbran said:


> You don't have to _like_ what WW does. But to say an entirely fictional metaphysical system is wrong is kind of like saying the image for the Enterprise NCC-1701-D is _wrong_. It isn't right or wrong - it is made up!




Precisely. WoD has always had people saying "OMG the basic idea of the universe is wrong!" (or the classic "The Technocracy is right!!!"), but it's not very compelling as an argument given that as you say, the WoD is fictional, and further, it's quite engaging and tends to provoke interesting conflicts, which many supernatural RPGs with different cosmological setups fail to do.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Dec 17, 2019)

I feel more comfortable in a fantasy world of D&D, or Exalted, where natural laws are different, and this allows pokemon-like creatures with superpowers. But not works set in our real life whose point of view about supernatural is too different from mine. I don't like to see in the same level a saint missionary who help people to build a new hospital than a blackafrican shaman who kills albines to use their body parts for ritual magic. (killing albines in Africa for magic ritual is a real tragedy, but the book of the Dreamspeakers will not tell this). To say it is only fiction doesn't help me to feel better. 

About W:tA I don't like the false dillema about to choose between modern technology or to save mother Nature. I hate that Malthusian naughty word about there are too much overpopulation, when this isn't not the true problem. W:tA isn't about saving the Nature for the future of the next generations but annoying ecocatratrophism, when mankind appears as a cancer for the planet. If we really want to save the nature then we have to notice the true root of the troubles is being controlled by people who haven't to worry about suffering the consecuences of their actions because we are who will pay for the broken plates.

I hate when White Wolf's fiction is used report against fanaticism to warn us against following those steps toward the dark side of the Force but they are always forgetting a very important lesson: the respect for the human dignity. Without this the rebell against authority later becomes a new tyrant.


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## zhivik (Dec 17, 2019)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> I feel more comfortable in a fantasy world of D&D, or Exalted, where natural laws are different, and this allows pokemon-like creatures with superpowers. But not works set in our real life whose point of view about supernatural is too different from mine. I don't like to see in the same level a saint missionary who help people to build a new hospital than a blackafrican shaman who kills albines to use their body parts for ritual magic. (killing albines in Africa for magic ritual is a real tragedy, but the book of the Dreamspeakers will not tell this).
> 
> About W:tA I don't like the false dillema about to choose between modern technology or to save mother Nature. I hate that Malthusian naughty word about there are too much overpopulation, when this isn't not the true problem. W:tA isn't about saving the Nature for the future of the next generations but annoying ecocatratrophism, when mankind appears as a cancer for the planet. If we really want to save the nature then we have to notice the true root of the troubles is being controlled by people who don't suffer the consecuences of their mistakes because we are going who will pay the broken plates.
> 
> I hate when White Wolf's fiction is used report against fanaticism to warn us against following those steps toward the dark side of the Force but they are always forgetting a very important lesson: the respect for the human dignity. Without this the rebell against authority later becomes a new tyrant.




Well, the very premise of the World of Darkness is that it is a world that resembles ours but much darker. No one claims the World of Darkness is our world, it is just an imaginary version of it. Regarding the different point of view - you can't expect everyone to have your point of view, we are different people, after all.

I am with you on the often binary nature of the Garou in Apocalypse, though, which is why I prefer Forsaken over it. The portrayal of civilisation and technology as always harming nature is too one-sided. There can be some fun to get out of your comfort zone and play fanatics on occasion, but my problem with Apocalypse is that it is the only thing it offers. Sure, there are Garou tribes with different nuances, but more often than not, the Garou are bigots and their own actions have often led to more misery than the good they reportedly were trying to achieve.

Meanwhile, the Forsaken offers a lot more depth and nuance - a more sandbox approach, so to say. It also adopts the concept that nature is neither good nor bad (unlike Apocalypse, where nature is always good). The Forsaken care much more about harmony in whatever form it appears than the Garou, for whom harmony is most often than not associated with nature's dominance.

But to each their own. I think it is clear that I am not very keen on a new Apocalypse edition, as I am very happy with the Forsaken line. I will take a look for sure, but my decision will be based on how fun it is to play the game, not what implications it might have on real-world politics.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Dec 17, 2019)

I like some ideas from Forsaken, and I am used to imagine mash-up mixing WoD and CoD, but better in a fantasy reality counterpart, something like Ravenloft, but also because I can add a lot of monster more. Other idea is metis can be created by special rituals using kindred voluntaries, but they become sterile. 

Other idea is garous can live in some horizont realms/demiplanes, where industrial revolution hasn't arrived yet, until the first visits by the void engineerers.


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## Staffan (Dec 22, 2019)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> The WoD Cosmology is Weaver-Wyrd-Wyrm, an evolution of Chaos vs Law by Michale Moorcock's work, and this is a variant of the classic manicheism good vs evil. This is wrong. The idea of a cosmic balance between light and dark sides of the Force as ying and yang is wrong.



I think you're misunderstanding what the "healthy" universe as portrayed by Werewolf/Mage (the OWOD games that gets the most into this kind of thing) would look like.

The Wyld is the force of unbridled creation. The Weaver is the force of shaping things and keeping them controlled. And the Wyrm is the force that destroys and makes room for new things. They are essentially the same forces as the Fates of classic mythology: Clotho spins the thread of life, Lachesis measures it out, and Atropos cuts it.

The Wyld is not "good". The Weaver is not "evil". The Wyrm is not normally evil either. But the forces involved have gone out of balance. This has lead to a world that is seemingly in stasis, and turned the Wyrm into a force of corruption instead of purification. If the Wyld had been ascendant, the world would instead have been moving toward formless chaos, which would not have been a good thing either.

Also, while the Garou are the protagonists of Werewolf stories, that does not make them *heroes*. The original idea behind the World of Darkness games was that this was a game where you play *monsters*. The Garou are not automatically in the right. They have done a lot of horrible things in the past - culling humanity, nearly wiping other changing breeds out of existence, warfare between different tribes, and so on. That thing where humans are reduced to blubbering messes of terror when they see a Crinos-form Garou? That's not due to some supernatural aura, that's due to genetic memory of the massacres Garou perpetrated upon humanity. The eco-terrorist angle favored by many Garou is probably a dead end, if nothing else because they don't have the numbers or power to win by force. But it makes them feel good, so that's what they do, instead of trying more political solutions. All in all, the Garou are no less monstrous than the Kindred, but they probably feel better about it.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Dec 22, 2019)

This is not about a group playing to be the bad guys. I don't mind the lore too much because I can change how I want, for example using a fantasy world, mixing Kult: lost divinity and even mason lodges controlled by vampires to manipulate us. And I am going to retcon the serpent brotherhood, and now it is a elite secret society as a version of the "skull & bones" for future fomorians, the boy-scout ersatz was only the first step for youngest potential candidates.  

My complain about W:tA is because it is not only dark urban fantasy, but the *ecocatastrophism* in its pages, where modern civilitation appears as enemy or a pain in the neck of Mother Nature, Gaia. This isn't a call of responsability abut take care the planet for the future generations, but lack of faith in mankind ourself. We have to be responsible, but we still can save the planet. Now we know the bioregenation, growing plants to clean pollution, or using special worms what can eat plastic. We have to take care with the false prophets, wolves with sheep's clothing, of the ecology who want to sell us their snake oil, false remedies, for example higher taxes, or a global goverment controlling all the industry. 

* Could anybody suggest a name for a Russian or Chinese "brother" of Pentex?


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## doctorbadwolf (Dec 22, 2019)

Umbran said:


> With respect - it is _FICTIONAL_.
> 
> Have you not noticed that these games have... werewolves, vampires, and stuff?  You know, it is incorrect to say those things exist... but it is a game.
> 
> ...



Of course fictional things can be wrong. Depends on what they’re trying to say, exactly. For instance, if the point is that it is wrong to depict the natural state of the world as balanced between good and evil, that’s a valid point regardless of you or I or anyone else disagreeing with it. 

The message of a piece of art is an act with moral weight. It can be considered right or wrong just like any other expression.


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## Staffan (Dec 23, 2019)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> My complain about W:tA is because it is not only dark urban fantasy, but the *ecocatastrophism* in its pages, where modern civilitation appears as enemy or a pain in the neck of Mother Nature, Gaia. This isn't a call of responsability abut take care the planet for the future generations, but lack of faith in mankind ourself. We have to be responsible, but we still can save the planet. Now we know the bioregenation, growing plants to clean pollution, or using special worms what can eat plastic. We have to take care with the false prophets, wolves with sheep's clothing, of the ecology who want to sell us their snake oil, false remedies, for example higher taxes, or a global goverment controlling all the industry.




Modern civilization *is* screwing the planet over. We're overfishing the seas, flooding the atmosphere with CO2, releasing toxic chemicals, and all sorts of other bad things. Fixing this will require lots of systemic change. Exactly what sort of change can be debated, and due to the politics ban here this is not the place to do it, but pretty much everyone can see that the current trajectory is heading off a cliff.

In the real world, this process is primarily driven by greed. Pipelines are built by corporations seeking to maximize profit, and who see the environmental issues as either no big deal or as acceptable losses. In the World of Darkness, this is helped along by supernatural forces who want to corrupt nature for the lulz.

A not-insignificant number of Garou believe that the solution is to murderize humans until they're at a manageable number again. These are basically the folks who seriously believe that Thanos was right. Others believe in more political solutions.


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## Staffan (Dec 23, 2019)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Of course fictional things can be wrong. Depends on what they’re trying to say, exactly. For instance, if the point is that it is wrong to depict the natural state of the world as balanced between good and evil, that’s a valid point regardless of you or I or anyone else disagreeing with it.



Of course, in the idealized balanced state, neither the Wyld, the Weaver, or the Wyrm are *good* or *evil*. They just *are*. The evil comes from their imbalance.


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## Umbran (Dec 23, 2019)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> My complain about W:tA is because it is not only dark urban fantasy, but the *ecocatastrophism* in its pages, where modern civilitation appears as enemy or a pain in the neck of Mother Nature, Gaia. This isn't a call of responsability abut take care the planet for the future generations, but lack of faith in mankind ourself. We have to be responsible, but we still can save the planet.




And, if and when we actually get around to doing that, the WoD catastrophism will seem quaint and out-of-date, and they'll have to restructure their game, or leave it as a period piece.

Until that time, though, the form does seem fairly apt.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Dec 23, 2019)

In the lore the Weaver was the responsable Wyrm became mad, or at least some legends tell this.

Sorry, but I hate when I am reading fiction and some author tries me to feel guilty because something horrible has haspened in the world. That is not to try to open my eyes, but emotional manipulation. Not only it bothers me, it may be dangerous. 

I can read fiction where some characters do horrible things, but I don't like works with a negative point of view about us. We have to be responsible, we could be cause for shame for the future generations, but we also have the great potential to do awesome things. The key of the matter is to defend the right moral values, not only targeting anybody like the villain of the movie.

And I am missing White Wolf authors are forgetting our society has to recover the respect for the human dignity to not become monsters and fall in the dark side of the force. When they report some historical facts, I miss they don't report other things. 

* What do you thing about a Vampire sourcebook telling Lasombra started Cristero War in Mexico to terminate the greatest patrons of vampire-hunters? Has WoD told anything about the war (really a brutal genocide) in la Vendée? It happened some years after the French Terror.


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## MGibster (Dec 24, 2019)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> What do you thing about a Vampire sourcebook telling Lasombra started Cristero War in Mexico to terminate the greatest patrons of vampire-hunters? Has WoD told anything about the war (really a brutal genocide) in la Vendée? It happened some years after the French Terror.




To be perfectly honest with you I much prefer to have humans responsible for most of the horrible stuff in the world.  I don't mind in fiction when vampires or other supernatural critters take advantage of situations like the Cristero War or World War II, but it's humans who were driving things.  

And so far as World of Darkness goes I've always thought that the various supernatural entities might think they control humanity but they really don't.  They might nudge it in a few places but at the end of the day they've got the tiger by the tail and can't really let go.


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