# Non-Magic CCGs



## SolitonMan (Nov 7, 2008)

Hi,

I was going through my game closet recently and was looking through some of the boxes of CCGs I've acquired (but never play) over the years.  I was wondering what other CCGs (besides Magic:The Gathering) people out there own.  The ones I found and wish I could play again at some point include the following:

Vampire/Jyhad
On the Edge
Heresy: Kingdom Come
Shadowfist
Deadlands: Doomtown
Legend of the Five Rings

What about it?  Anybody have some cool card games that just didn't make it to the success of sustainability but are still a lot of fun to play?  I remember some really cool games of Jyhad back in the day, and when Shadowfist debuted (I think I got it at Gen Con 1995) my friends and I kept our roommates awake (and annoyed) playing all night long.   

On the Edge I actually did some demos for at various game stores, but I never got a regular game going with anyone, although it had a feature I really thought was cool, which was that the winning condition is based on scoring points of influence and not killing off opponents.  That meant everyone was in the game until the end, although the fundamental drawback was that you need at least three players to really get that game going.

Heresy was interesting, great artwork, interesting concept but it never really went anywhere and I only managed to play a handful of games.  Still, I wouldn't mind giving it another go.  I always thought that the setting would be great for an RPG, and last I heard WotC purchased Last Unicorn Games some years back.

Anyway, if you have any interesting game suggestions or stories that are related to non-Magic games, please post them here.  Thanks!


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## mlund (Nov 7, 2008)

Well, I'm not sure I'd call all these games "unsustainable" in a broad sense. Certainly they didn't all take root as a permanent presence in every metropolitan area and college town like Magic has, though.



SolitonMan said:


> Vampire/Jyhad




Vampire is still played and developed. It seems to be kind of an East Coast thing, though. It is also notoriously hard to start a play-group since it is essentially a 4+ person game to implement properly.



> Shadowfist




Shadowfist is still alive as far as I can see. It has had at least one relatively recent release. Again, its pockets of activity are harder to actively farm because you really need at least 4 people to get in a good game.



> Legend of the Five Rings




Still kicking, extensively. They are having a global event at 315 different stores this weekend, from Nov. 7-9. They are also gearing up for a new base-set release in Summer of 2009.

A game that I never see anymore but enjoyed? Warlord. It had some balance problems in the end that forced a reset, and I think the direction of the storyline aspects of the game just didn't work out, but the underlying mechanics and themes were a lot of fun.

- Marty Lund


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## SolitonMan (Nov 7, 2008)

Nice!  I didn't know about any of those, I guess because I can't find the cards at my FLGS.  And, I don't know anyone who plays.  I suppose a little internet search wouldn't have hurt...


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## Siberys (Nov 7, 2008)

Magi-Nation is still my favorite card game of all time. Though dead, it's easy to collect.


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## Victim (Nov 7, 2008)

I really enjoyed playing Magi Nation on CCG workshop.  It's a shame it got taken down; I don't think I've even seen a physical Magi Nation card product anywhere.


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## Nimloth (Nov 8, 2008)

SolitonMan said:


> On the Edge



Played some On the Edge.  I particularly liked the cards that let you change the victory conditions of the game or play a card from another card game.  Wacky fun, to bad the card art wasn't that good.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 8, 2008)

Besides M:tG?

Gads...without actually looking, I know I have cards from:

Star Trek NG (it was a gift)
Middle Earth (which, BTW, has some cards that are _identical_ to the game's later incarnation)
On the Edge
MechWarrior
X-Files
Shadowfist or Lot5R- I don't recall which.  Both maybe?
DoomTrooper (a really good game, actually- sorry to see it go)
Hyborean Gates (only the art made this game worth buying...and it didn't)
Ultimate Combat! A martial arts game that was a blatant ripoff of M:tG's mechanic
A superhero game
Rocketmen Adventures
Illuminati: NWO

As well as quasi-CCGs like Munchkin and Nuclear War


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## scitadel (Nov 8, 2008)

Hmmm, brief collections (not all here with me of)

Vampire/Jyhad - was fun, but never really got going on that one.  
Rage: Werewolf the Apocalypse - or something like that.  Again as above, really my brother's copies.
Shadowfist - this one was fun.  I enjoyed playing with my brother but never got really going; it was gone before I started my CCG phase.
Legend of the Five Rings - he had copies, I never really learnt it.  Looked fun though.
Middle Earth - oh god, I collect 99% of this game. I still love it to death. I really should look up some players in my region.  It was so good.
Star Wars the CCG (original Star Wars version) - not sure which variant it was called. I still have an unopened box somewhere.  It was... ok.  It took a lot of time to drain force points, and it wasn't really that exciting. Sold off the majority of my decks of this one.
Some marvel superhero game - i can't recall how it played, beyond simple like heck. A big meh!

And that's about it.  The others I don't even recall hearing of.


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## Stormborn (Nov 8, 2008)

mlund said:


> Shadowfist is still alive as far as I can see. It has had at least one relatively recent release. Again, its pockets of activity are harder to actively farm because you really need at least 4 people to get in a good game.
> 
> - Marty Lund




This was the first CCG I ever really played (limited exposure to some others, never really had my own deck of anythign).  When I first started dating my wife she had a ton of these cards.  She used to play with some friends and had enought for a good dozen decks and we would build them and then try them out in various combinations.  We eventually stopped playing because it got predictable to just play the game with each other all the time.  However, I would disagree that you need 4 people for a good game, although she says that she used to play with 2-6 people regularly.


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## reanjr (Nov 8, 2008)

Middle Earth by I.C.E.
Blood Wars from TSR <- awesome game


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## SolitonMan (Nov 8, 2008)

scitadel said:


> Rage: Werewolf the Apocalypse - or something like that.  Again as above, really my brother's copies.




Yes!  I almost put "Werewolf" into my list, but I couldn't remember the name of the game itself.  I do have some Rage cards in a box someplace.

It seems there are a lot of fun card games out there, I wish more people around where I live (central PA) would be into these.  Maybe I can nudge some of my Magic-playing buds to give 'em a try.


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## Siberys (Nov 14, 2008)

Victim said:


> I really enjoyed playing Magi Nation on CCG workshop.  It's a shame it got taken down; I don't think I've even seen a physical Magi Nation card product anywhere.




Yeah, too bad it was taken down. Just as I was getting back into playing, too...

I was into it back when it first released, and I've a ton of the cards... Finding the cards to fill out the remainder of my physical collection has been less than easy, though, y'know. Gotta find about half the cards from each of the three middle sets, and 10% each of the first and last...

'least I haven't got much competition!


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## Asmor (Nov 14, 2008)

I miss Battletech... That was a fantastic game, kind of a more tactically-rich Magic.

Netrunner, also. A very different game, but a very good game.


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## Arkhandus (Nov 14, 2008)

Victim said:


> I really enjoyed playing Magi Nation on CCG workshop.  It's a shame it got taken down; I don't think I've even seen a physical Magi Nation card product anywhere.




Really?  I saw Magi-Nation packs and starter decks for sale at most game stores I've been to, back when it was still in print.  I haven't really paid attention in the past few years, being more or less broke, but it sure seemed popular for awhile.

There were what, 2 or 3 GameBoy video games made based on it?  I got the original one for GameBoy Color, and I'm still stuck in the fifth or so Shadow Tower; still can't figure out how to finish that dungeon. ^_^;  But the Tony Jones universal magi card that came with that game is handy.

I still own a few hundred Magi-Nation cards and have about 5 or 6 decks made for it, but wasn't able to follow the game any more when the set that followed The Core was released (got a lot of the Awakening set and The Core, but then I just didn't have any more money for CCGs).  Magi-Nation is pretty fun, and I liked a lot of the mechanics; The Core added a few more little tricks and twists to the rules.

Also, it's one of the few games I had any luck with, and I got a copy of Agram (ruler of the Core, and a pretty strong card) in one booster, along with several Core Magi and Shadow Magi in other packs.  My Arderial deck is the only one that's really a match for my Core deck, because of Arderial's sheer lightning-blasting power from so many Xyxs and similar Dream Creatures, not to mention the Arderial spells that complement that strategy.  My Orothe deck is pretty strong too.

My friends back in high school quickly warmed up to the game when I introduced them to it, years ago, despite the goofy/chibi-style artwork, because the gameplay was just so fun and strategic, yet not so complex.  I like the three-magi rule, it's like having three life totals, but it's neat that your magi's energy is also what they use to play cards and activate abilities.


Besides Magi-Nation, I've got a ton of Marval Overpower cards, from just about every set released for it (even DC Overpower, though I'm not a fan of many DC characters).  It was kinda complicated and wierd though, so my friends and I played it kind of differently from how it was supposed to be played, because of problems trying to understand its rulebook.  It was fun, but with the way we played it, it took quite a while to finish a game, because we didn't use Mission cards and had misinterpreted some of the rules on rounds or whatever.

I think the rules wierdness and serious disparity between most Hero/Villain cards and their Special cards, plus the cramped rules text and thus poor wording for rules, kept Overpower from becoming really significant.  Just the Marvel name and its characters made it popular, I think.  Still, I'd like to play it again sometime, since I still have hundreds of cards for it. ^_^


BattleTech.  Awesome.  Made by Wizards of the Coast, but very different from M:TG.  Still very cool, moreso with the classic BattleMechs and OmniMechs. ^_^  I got TONS of BattleTech cards, and I just love the mechanics.  Lots of tactics and strategies, and it did a good or decent job of showing the grittiness of BattleTech (bonus points for using your deck as an extremely limited supply of life points, and losing cards to the Scrapheap just because your opponent hit you with too many Units to block, or with Long Range units and stuff).  Too bad there was no rule for critical hits, which are major in BattleTech; the closest thing to it is the way a Unit's Structure works (like Toughness in M:TG, but it doesn't regenerate and is tough or impossible to repair).

I got some of every BT set up through Commander's Edition, which was the last set I think, and very cool.  I got most of the Clan and Inner Sphere starter decks for it, which were cool and each pretty different in strategy and tactics, fitting the different factions' strengths (though I was a little disappointed that the Draconis Combine deck relied so much on C3 (command/control/communications, a special ability that made groups of C3 Units fight better together) Units.

BT was very cool and fun to play, though my friends didn't like it quite as much as I did.  It did a reasonable job of translating Classic BattleTech stats and such into a much simpler card game, that was still more complex than M:TG but not in any bad way (you used counters and the occasional six-sided die to keep track of damage and random results from some cards).  Just enough so that I think it held BattleTech back from becoming really big, like M:TG, but made it more tactically and strategically interesting I think.

Most cards were played face-down at first, in your Construction Zone, and you built them up over time until their cost was paid, and Subterfuge cards would do more damage, draw more cards for you, or whatever based on how many extra construction counters you put on them.  If an opponent damaged your cards under construction, you had to turn them face-up, and damage would remove construction counters, sending the card to the Scrapheap if too much damage was done.

The Resource/Asset mechanic was simpler and more flexible than mana/lands in M:TG, though it could still be crippling to not get enough Resources or the right Asset to play your cards at their cheapest cost.  The game could go pretty fast or kind of slowly depending on how well you defended yourself and how many attacks an opponent got past you, since you could quickly run out of cards in your deck if you weren't careful, and then you'd lose.


C-23 was another card game I liked and still wish I could find folks to play with.  It was also made by WotC and premiered the Arc System, which was then used for the Hercules and Xena CCGs that followed.  It was fairly simple and made for easy learning, but wasn't quite _too_ simplistic.  It used the deck as the life points, just like BattleTech, except the rest of it was much simpler.  You had three resources, red, blue, and green, which represented different types of stuff; green resources represented the hives and stockpiles of the Angelan insect-men, red resources represented the bases and production facilities of the civilized land's military, and blue resources represented technological and information-gathering resources of the city.

Each card had one of those three colors, and mostly represented a particular faction, like the Angelans, the military, and the special forces/covert ops stuff under Cronus' and the Council's command.  There was a decent amount of strategy and tactics involved, but not a whole lot, and it was fairly easy to pick up.

Each color had a simple theme and advantages of its own, and you could use multiple colors in your deck, you just had to pay at least one resource of the appropriate color when playing a card (the rest of its cost could be paid with other colors if desired).  Red was good at damage-dealing, with lots of direct damage and Gung-Ho characters (ones that could only attack, not block).  Blue was good at card-drawing, discard, countering other cards, and general sneakiness.  Green had some characters with an efficient cost and high stats, but not much else, relying on brute force and the occasional minor tactic.

One of the other games I had a bit of luck with, and got a few good rares out of, like two versions of Corbin and one copy of Hemlocke; that dude's just NASTY, especially in the card game.  Read the comic books that C-23 was based on, and they were interesting too.  C-23 was at least moderately better than Young Jedi (see below), and had potential for some expansions and new mechanics probably, but never got any that I know of.  Would be fun to play again.


Besides that....lessee....  Star Wars.  It had even more complicated rules than Overpower, and required tracking a lot of things IIRC, but it was still fun sometimes.  Too bad I sold my Obi-Wan Kenobi card for like 5 or 10 bucks when trying to work on a better deck than the cruddy one I had managed to build with my collection.  The Revised Edition or whatever was neat, too.


And Star Wars: Young Jedi, which came out years later and was much more disappointing.  Extremely simplistic gameplay and a lot of cruddy cards, plus the starter decks were all identical junk, rather than randomized or interesting or something.  I only bought like 2 or 3 starter decks, but learned that they were all the same. :-(  Bought a few booster packs, but quickly gave up on the game as being pretty hopeless and pathetic.  Don't think it ever got any expansions, but I don't remember.  Still have my hundred or so cards for it, not that I expect to play it much, if ever, again.


Dragonball Z!!!  The first card game, not the later one.  Made by Upper Deck I think, or am I misremembering?  Yeah, I loved DBZ in my early teenage years, despite some of the aggravatingly-drawn-out battles (Namek shoulda blown up a hundred times by the point that one fight ended....grrr....).  The card game wasn't bad, at least.  A little bit annoying, but not bad.  There was strategy and tactics, and different variations of the character cards, with a neat sort of level-up mechanic.  Kinda complicated, but probably not too much so.  Only got to play it a few times, and that was a looooong time ago.  Bought a few starter decks and booster packs up through Cell Games, then stopped shortly after buying a bit of that set.

But the shinies!  So shiny!  Some of the special character cards, I mean, the foils.  Ooooooohhhh..... ^_^


Pokemon.  Yeah, yeah, don't laugh.  The card game was made by Wizards of the Coast, and had surprisingly fun game mechanics, with good strategy and tactics to it.  See, one of my wierd friends in high school introduced me to the GameBoy game, Pokemon Blue, and I found it to be kinda fun and addictive, though annoying and silly at times.  Later he got a starter set for the Pokemon card game, and pestered me into trying it out with him, since nobody else would try it.  Well, I pestered my friends a lot to play M:TG, BT, C-23, and M-N with me, so it was only fair.

It turned out to be a decent game, and after a while, for whatever reason (I think I was just getting frustrated with M:TG or something at the time), I picked up a starter set and a few packs, trying the game out some more.  Later I bought a bunch more packs, and a few starter decks from the first two or three expansions.  Now I have about as many Pokemon cards as I do Magi-Nation cards, give or take a bit, though I've only played it once in a while, mostly at the FLGS against kids and teenagers.

It's been like 8 or 10 years since I last played the game, but I'd still have fun playing it again sometime if I found anyone to play against.


There might be one other card game I've got buried in my collection that I can't remember right now, but I don't know.

And there's Three-Dragon Ante, a non-collectible card game from WotC, based on D&D's set of chromatic and metallic dragons and some mortals, like the dragonslayer card, the priest card, the princess card, the thief card, and the archmage card.  Plus a Bahamut card, a Tiamat card, and a dracolich card.  Really fun, but as I said, non-collectible, and only really good when you have 3 or more people to play (in total; 2-person play just isn't very fun and nowhere near as interesting).


And, of course, I got freakin' TONS of Magic: The Gathering cards.   A pitiful collection compared to those who really try to collect, but I just try to get cool cards and make fun decks, which means I mostly just buy packs every now and then, hardly ever single cards, and I only bought a _few_ boxes of booster packs when I had a decent job, and enough disposable income to waste a little that way.

Only loosely follow the game since the Invasion cycle finished (Invasion/Plane Shift/Apocalypse), buying a few packs and a starter deck once in a while (skipped Mirrodin and Kamigawa altogether, and once again stopped buying cards after the Time Spiral cycle finished).  Started with Revised Edition, which came just before 4th Edition I think.


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## Asmor (Nov 14, 2008)

I'd forgotten about C-23. That was a cool game.

I was actually going through my magic cards a couple weeks ago and found an old Xena deck.


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## Trickstergod (Nov 15, 2008)

*A Game of Thrones:* This is the one I really wish I had a play group for. Even forgetting about the novels the game's licensed from, it has some solid game play. The game's still kicking around, but it apparently hasn't sold quite so well as it had in previous years. 

*Jyhad (Vampire: The Eternal Struggle:* This is one my friends and I used to play fairly extensively, but that dropped off a bit once we started drifting away from playing Vampire and other White Wolf games. I still have a good chunk of cards, though I think all my decks are in misarray. 

*Legend of the Five Rings:* Another game I played and collected rather extensively. I'm not entirely sure why I drifted away from it. Enjoyable enough, to be sure. 

Then there are a few other card games I own but could care less to play again. Rage, for example. Not so good a game.


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## Mistwell (Nov 16, 2008)

I used to love On the Edge.  In fact I think I have a whole lot of those cards still (many boxes).


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## Victim (Nov 16, 2008)

Yeah, Battletech was pretty nice too.  Of course, I'm a little biased since I did well for once in the first BT tourney in my area.  It was hilarious; I had like 9 Casears in the deck.  Powerful, efficient mechs were pretty much the only thing I had going for me, but the environment was so primitive it worked pretty well.


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## Steve Jung (Nov 17, 2008)

I've got
Star Wars: CCG from Decipher
Legend of the Five Rings from Alderac
I have cards from Spycraft, GI Joe and World of Warcraft that I got free from GenCon.


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## Kenku17 (Nov 17, 2008)

Im a big L5R player. The game is still very strong if you can find a good shop, and play rewards are nice.
I saw the thing on Pokemon and all I can say is that soon enough it could compete with the likes of YGO agian, as the game has slowly regained its prowess under Nintendo's wing(WOTC surrendered its control a while ago) One major thing I must say is that the power curve has gone up and trainer cards are far more structured, but the game is still that same great system.

I wish I could find people to play Magi-Nation Duel. I loved that game(and am somewhat curious about what Cookie Jar/2i is planning since they are making another one with the series)

This is really a CSG, but I also have to give a nod to Pirates! That game was and still is an Awesome ships battle game!


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## Tikigod (Nov 22, 2008)

I loved the 7th Sea ccg


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## Gundark (Nov 22, 2008)

I really got into the Star Wars CCG for some time. I really loved that game. For a short time I got into the Lord of the Ring CCG from Decipher as well, really a lot of fun, later expansions just were "meh" though. 

Some other games that I played  

Jyhad...finding players was hard, as well you needed many, many cards to play.

Aliens vs Predator. The card art was taken from the movies, really crappy. Gameplat's was okay.

Spycraft. Not a bad game, however there were some kinks to the game I didn't like.

World of Warcraft. An okay game, it really felt like a rip off of Magic the Gatherering.

Highlander. I didn't play this game too much, however was kinda fun. This one is still going I think.

X-files CCG. Really a good game. I really think it's too bad this one died so soon.

Shadowrun CCG. Another fun game. Died before it should have.


I really enjoyed playing CCGs there is an element of playing them that you just can't get from playing any other game. Creating a killer deck and seeing it work just gives a level of satisfaction that I havn't found from anywhere else. The only CCG to still be going in my area is Magic. Despite all the CCGs I've owned and tried over the years I've never tried Magic, it just seems too daunting to try to pick it up.

That and the fact I swore that I would stop playing random games. I've spent soooo much $ on boosters. It really sucks when you drop $20-$50 and get NOTHING decent.


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