# To anyone who bought the EPIC LEVEL HANDBOOK



## Vecna (Jul 7, 2002)

A list of the contents of the book will be probably *too long*.

So, I'm asking here:
- How much of the ELH is different from the playtest material  (if you have both)?

And (on a more personal basis)
- Does anybody know when it will ship in Europe?


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## James McMurray (Jul 7, 2002)

Is it out yet in the US? I was thinking the date was closer to the 12th?


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## Vecna (Jul 7, 2002)

From EnWorld home page:



> The Epic Level Handbook has been picked up by scooper "pierworker" in Puerto Rico.


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## Godofredo (Jul 7, 2002)

add:

- stats of the "Holy Devastator"
- List of Prestige classes

Thanks

Godo


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## Godofredo (Jul 7, 2002)

so we must find "pierworker"


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## Vecna (Jul 7, 2002)

Godofredo said:
			
		

> *add:
> 
> - stats of the "Holy Devastator"
> - List of Prestige classes
> ...




You mean:
_ everything don't listed in the ELH-PM_ 

I'm ready to start a discussion about some _bugs_  I found on the ELH-PM, but I was waiting for the official release (at least in the US, here in the UE we'll have to wait till september if we are lucky).

Just two hints:
1. psions 20+ are *far much more* powerful than sorcerers!!!
2. epic "rituals" are broken!!!

Have they been fixed in the official book?


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## Nightfall (Jul 7, 2002)

Epic rituals huh? compared to what, true rituals?


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## Darkness (Jul 8, 2002)

Godofredo said:
			
		

> *so we must find "pierworker"    *



Hmm... Nobody of that name is listed in the members list of these boards, at least.


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## William Ronald (Jul 8, 2002)

Hmm, maybe this is a false report.

As for ritual magic, I have used some rituals in my game long before Swords and Sorcery studios came out with any products.

If something seems broken, I merely change it or ignore it.

Remember, a DM can say NO.

I heard there were going to be delays in releasing the book.  Part of me wonders if it won't be released until Gen Con.


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## Bonedagger (Jul 8, 2002)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> *Remember, a DM can say NO.*




That's right. "Just say NO."

Don't give in to group pressure.

Maybe we need a AWDM's (Anonymous Weakwilled DM's) group.


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## Dark Psion (Jul 8, 2002)

Vecna said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> 
> ...




If you would hint a little more, I'll give you a shinny new hook for that missing hand and big shooter marble to replace that missing eye.


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## mooker (Jul 8, 2002)

*Hehe*



			
				Bonedagger said:
			
		

> *
> 
> That's right. "Just say NO."
> 
> ...




"I... I gave a vorpal sword +7 last week to a 3rd level Paladin, or else he said he wouldn't play in my game anymore! I.. I just want to be liked... that's all!"


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## Chriskaballa (Jul 8, 2002)

I need that kinda of a support group.... Maybe I should start it...

I am SUCH a weak DM.

Anyway, to get on topic... as soon as it hits stores the ELH will be in my hands, and a lot of money will be out of my wallet. I'll see if I can review it on EN World...

~Chris


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## Derulbaskul (Jul 8, 2002)

It comes out in Singapore tomorrow, Tue 09Jul02.

Cheers
NPP


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## Knight Otu (Jul 8, 2002)

Derulbaskul said:
			
		

> *It comes out in Singapore tomorrow, Tue 09Jul02.
> *



So we still have to wait one day until we can bombard you with questions?


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## William Ronald (Jul 8, 2002)

Well, I will look forward to the review.


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## Derulbaskul (Jul 8, 2002)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> *
> So we still have to wait one day until we can bombard you with questions?    *




Indeed, although I am actually more interested in reading Silver Marches which may also be shipped at the same time (sorry, FR junkie running a low level game at present).

Cheers
NPP


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## Upper_Krust (Jul 8, 2002)

Hi Derulbaskul mate! 



			
				Derulbaskul said:
			
		

> *It comes out in Singapore tomorrow, Tue 09Jul02.*




Feel free to type out the contents at your leisure... 

You know the drill by now mate!


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## Knight Otu (Jul 8, 2002)

We are ravenous as always! 

Would you have the money to buy both, so we don't have to wait?


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## Johno (Jul 8, 2002)

*90 Feats...*

From WotC Web enhancement to Epic Level Handbook.

Armour Skin
Automatic Quicken Spell
Automatic Silent Spell
Automatic Still Spell
Blinding Speed
Bonus Domain
Chaotic Rage
Combat Archery
Craft Epic Wonderous Item
Damage Reduction
Devastating Critical
Dextrous Fortitude
Dextrous Mind
Diminuative Wildshape
Distant Shot
Efficient Item Creation
Energy Resistance
Enhance Spell
Epic Dodge
Epic Endurance
Epic Leadership
Epic Prowess
Epic Reputation
Epic Skill Focus
Epic Speed
Epic Spell Focus
Epic Spell Penetration
Epic Spellcasting
Epic Toughness
Epic Weapon Focus
Epic Weapon Specialization
Exception Deflection
Extended Lifespan
Fast Healing
Fine Wildshape
Great Smiting
Holy Strike
Ignore Material Components
Improved Alignment-based Casting
Improved Combat Casting
Improved Combat Reflexes
Improved Darkvision
Improved Favoured Enemy
Improved Heighten Spell
Improved Low-light Vision
Improved Manyshot
Improved Metamagic
Improved Sneak Attack
Improved Spell Capacity
Improved Whirlwind Attack
Infinite Deflection
Instant Reload
Intensify Spell
Legendary Climber
Legendary Commander
Legendary Leaper
Legendary Rider
Legendary Tracker
Lingering Damage
Multispell
Negative Energy Burst
Overwhelming Critical
Penetrate Damage Reduction
Perfect Health
Perfect Multiweapon Fighting
Perfect Two-weapon Fighting
Permanent Emanation
Planar Turning
Polyglot
Positive Energy Aura
Reflect Arrows
Ruinous Rage
Self-Concealment
Sneak Attack of Opportunity
Spectral Strike
Spell Knowledge
Spell Opportunity
Spell Stowaway
Spontaneous Domain Access
Spontaneous Spell
Superior Initiative
Swarm of Arrows
Tenacious Magic
Terrifying Rage
Thundering Rage
Trap Sense
Two Weapon Rend
Uncanny Accuracy
Undead Mastery
Zone of Animation


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## Vecna (Jul 9, 2002)

From the WotC Board:



> I grabbed the epic level handbook today from my hobby store. It is sweet. Lots of great new monsters, including the Abomination, Phaethon, Behemoth, Mithril golem, Colossus, Demilich, Primal Elementals, Greater Treant, etc etc etc.
> [\quote]


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## Godofredo (Jul 9, 2002)

here is the link

http://boards.wizards.com/rpg/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=135;t=011295

Godo


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## Godofredo (Jul 9, 2002)

from wizards boards:

New Prestige Classses: Agent Retriever, Cosmic Descryer, Divine Emissary, Epic Infiltrator, Guardian Paramount, High Proselytizer, Legendary Dreadnaught, Perfect Wight, Union Sentinel.

New Feats: Additional Magic Item Space, Armor Skin, Augmented Alchemy, Automatic Quicken spell, Automatic Silent Spell, Automatic Still Spell, Bane of Enemies, Death of Enemies, Beast Companion, Beast Wild Shape, Dragon Wild Shape, Magical Beast Wild Shape, Plant Wild Shape, Vermin Wild Shape, Blinding Speed, Bonus domain, Bulwark of Defense, Chaotic Rage, Combat Archery, Craft Epic Arms and Armor, Craft Epic Rod, Craft Epic Staff, Craft Epic Wondrous Item, Damage Reduction, Deafening Song, Hindering Song, Dextrous Fortitude, Dextrous Will, Dimunitive Wild Shape, Fine Wild Shape, Distant Shot, Efficient Item Creation, Energy Resistance, Enhance Spell, Epic Dodge, Epic Endurance, Epic Fortitude, Epic Inspiration, Epic Leadership, Legendary commander, Epic Prowess, Epic Reflexes, Epic Reputation, Epic Skill Focus, Epic Speed, Epic Spell Focus, Epic Spell Penetration, Epic Spellcasting, Epic Toughness, Epic WEapon Focus, Epic Weapon Specialization, Epic Will, Exceptional Deflection, Extended Life Span, Familiar Spell, Fast Healing, Forge Epic Ring, Gargantuan Wild Shape, Colossal Wild Shape, Great Charisma, Great Constitution, Great Dexterity, Great Intelligence, Great Smiting, Great Strength, Great Wisdom, Group Inspiration, Holy Strike, Ignore Material Components, Improved Alignment Based Casting, Impoved Arrow of Death, Improved Aura of Courage, Improved Aura of Despair, Improved Combat Casting, Improved Combat Reflexes, Improved Darkvision, Improved Death Attack, Improved Elemental Wild Shape, Improved Favored Enemy, Improved Heighten Spell, Improved Ki Strike, Improved Low Light Vision, Improved Manifestation, Improved Metamagic, Improved Manyshot, Improved Sneak Attack, Improved Spell Capacity, Improved Spell Resiastance, Improved Stunning Fist, Improved Whirlwind Attack, Incite Rage, Infinite Deflection, Inspire Excellence, Instant Reload, Intensify Spell, Keen Strike, Vorpal Strike, Lasting Inspiration, Legendary Climber, Legendary Leaper, Legendary Rider, Legendary Tracker, Legendary Wrestler, Lingering Damage, Master Staff, Master Wand, Mighty Rage, Mobile Defense, Multispell, Multiweapon Rend, Music of the Gods, Negative Energy Burst, Overwhelming Critical, Devastating Critical, Penetrate Damage Reduction, Perfect Health, Perfect Multiweapon Fighting, Perfect Two Weapon Fighting, Permanent Emulation, Planar Turning, Polyglot, Positive Energy Aura, Ranged Inspiration, Rapid Inspiration, Reactive Countersong, Reflect Arrows, Righteous Strike, Ruinous Rage, Scribe Epic Scroll, Self-concealment, Shattering Strike, Sbeak Attack of Opportunity, Spectral Strike, Spell Knowledge, Spell Opportunity, Spell Stowaway, Spellcasting Harrier, Spontaneous Domain Access, Spontaneous Spell, Storm of Throws, Spuerior Initiative, Swarm of Arrows, Tenacious Magic, Terrifying Rage, Trap Sense, Two WEapon Rend, Uncanny Accuracy, Undead Mastery, Zone of Animation, Unholy Strike, Widen Aura of Courage, Widen Aura of Despair.

New Monsters: Abomination, Anaxim, Atropal, Chichimec, Dream Larva, Hecatoncheires, Infernal, Phaethon, Phane, Xixecal, Behemoth, Brachyurus, Colossus, Demilich, Devastation Vermin, Advanced Dragon, Force Dragon, Prismatic Dragon, Primal Elemental, Genius Loci, Gibbering Orb, Gloom, Golem, Ha-Naga, Hagunemnon, Hoary Hunter, Hunefer, Lavawight, Legendary Animal, Leshay, Living Vault, Mercane, Mu Spore, Neh-Thalggu, Paragon Mind Flayer, Prismasaurus, Pseudonatural Troll, Ruin Swarm, Shadow of the Void, Shape of Fire, Sirrush, Slaad, Tayellah, Thorciasid, Elder Titan, Elder Treant, Unbral Blot, Uvuudaum, Vermiurge, Winterwight, Worm That Walks.


Godo


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## Krug (Jul 9, 2002)

So what are the key differences? What happens when you pass the magic 20th level barrier?


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## dema (Jul 9, 2002)

I need this book now, ARGH

-dem


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## Greyhawk_DM (Jul 10, 2002)

Chriskaballa said:
			
		

> *I need that kinda of a support group.... Maybe I should start it...
> 
> I am SUCH a weak DM.
> 
> ...




I called my local Hastings and they said that when it came out for them{right now it's on backorder} it will be on sale for $27.97. You might check into that instead of paying full price retail of $39.95.


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## Krug (Jul 10, 2002)

dema said:
			
		

> *I need this book now, ARGH
> 
> -dem *




Oh let your player tap their fingers and remain at 20th level.  Or send in the level drainers!

How many out there really need the book NOW NOW? Raise their hands? As in for their PCs at least?


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## Xarlen (Jul 10, 2002)

From what I was told about the Dream Larva from that playtester doc... They're Nasty. We're talking Lovecraftian Freaky Mofos of Mass Proportions.

Let me put it like this: Imagine a creature that turns nightmares into reality? And we're not talking about Martha Steward Live Tour.


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## James McMurray (Jul 10, 2002)

I'll raise my hand to that. My PCs are 18th level and will soon hit 21+. As they are going up against a demilich, I could use the full template rather than the playtest version.


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## kreynolds (Jul 10, 2002)

Krug said:
			
		

> *How many out there really need the book NOW NOW? Raise their hands? As in for their PCs at least? *




I have three games that are borderline epic level. The first is 3 levels away, the second is 2 levels away, and third is, you guessed it, 1 level away. One of my players runs a game that is 1 level away.

That good enough?


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## dema (Jul 10, 2002)

Actually I said I needed it now because I can be very childish.

My players are only going to hit 7th level.

But I want to create the Epic Type NPC's in the world. 

-dem


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## mooker (Jul 10, 2002)

kreynolds said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I have three games that are borderline epic level. The first is 3 levels away, the second is 2 levels away, and third is, you guessed it, 1 level away. One of my players runs a game that is 1 level away.
> 
> That good enough? *




Man u're in >3< games? 

I'm envious.


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## applenerd (Jul 10, 2002)

I'm in the same boat.  None of my players are anywhere near needing anything in this book.  They are only 7th level.  Me on the other hand, I'm a book junkie and I need to have it so I can read and enjoy and imagine!  Any support groups for d20 book addiction?


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## Crothian (Jul 10, 2002)

mooker said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Man u're in >3< games?
> 
> I'm envious. *




He runs more then that.  Last I heard he was running 8 games or some such obscene number.


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## kreynolds (Jul 10, 2002)

Crothian said:
			
		

> *He runs more then that.  Last I heard he was running 8 games or some such obscene number.   *




Thankfully, I'm getting really close to being able to "pause" a couple of games. The game I run that is 2 levels away from epic and the game that is 1 level away from epic will both be "paused" until further notice to make room for other games (one of the DMs wants to start a Spycraft game).

I only get to play in 3 games, but neither are on a regular basis at all. One of them has been run once this year, another has been run twice this year, and the third hasn't even been run at all this year. So, I've had three gaming sessions this year that I got to play in. It sucks.


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## kreynolds (Jul 10, 2002)

mooker said:
			
		

> *Man u're in >3< games? *




Yep. I play in 3 games (technically 4, but the 4th one doesn't really count), but I run more than that. The gaming group I'm in consists of a total of 5 people and all of us are DMs running our own games, and playing in each others, though we don't play in all of them at once. The number of players in each game varies from 1 player (solo games) to all of us.


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## Numion (Jul 10, 2002)

I'll raise my hand.

Some of the PCs in my group are at level 18, so we'll need the book if they want to plan for prestige classes and such. (To meet the prerequisites.)


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## Nightfall (Jul 10, 2002)

Personally I like what I hear from them about the Epic level monsters AND also about the epic feats. I still like to see more and understand them a little more, especially perfect two weapon fighting, and Death of Enemies.


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## Melkor Lord Of ALL! (Jul 10, 2002)

Can someone list all the Epic Spells in the book?


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## Bugbear (Jul 10, 2002)

Someone over at the wizards boards has it, and they are giving lots of info...
http://boards.wizards.com/rpg/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=135;t=011295


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## Godofredo (Jul 10, 2002)

Bump


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## Hand of Vecna (Jul 11, 2002)

I got mine today (even though gaming shop guy said it wouldn't be in 'till Friday).  The feats are quite nice, but the spells and monsters (especially all the Lovecraftian ones) are GREAT!

The (indirect) mention of Acererak was nifty, to....


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## Oracular Vision (Jul 11, 2002)

Epic Level Handbook = Munchkin Level Handbook

That's all I have to say about that


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## Wolfspider (Jul 11, 2002)

Oracular Vision said:
			
		

> *Epic Level Handbook = Munchkin Level Handbook
> 
> That's all I have to say about that *




*rolls eyes*


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## William Ronald (Jul 11, 2002)

I do have a character whom  I have run since the mid 1980s who would qualify as an epic level character.  Essentially, everything he has was earned through  (if I may quote Churchill) "blood, sweat, toil, and tears."  He has gone places no mortal was meant to go, faced horrors of Lovecraftian proportions, and buried many of his dearest friends.  So, Oracular Vision, in what ways is this character a munchkin?

To me, a munchkin is a character that has power which is unearned.   The word munchkin does get thrown out a lot around here.  An epic level hero to me is someone who has achieved greatness through hard work, cunning, and perserverance.  A munchkin (and I know some people who hate the word) is a character that has achieved great power by an overly generous DM.

There are many styles of play.  I think if a character has an interesting story, it should not be stopped by an arbitrary level limit.  (Hercules, Gilagamesh, Cu Chulainn, and Sigurd could well be considered epic level heroes from mythology.)

I have not picked up the book yet, but I will withhold my judgement until I do so.


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## Numion (Jul 11, 2002)

Oracular Vision said:
			
		

> *
> That's all I have to say about that *




...thank god.


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## Kai Lord (Jul 11, 2002)

Oracular Vision said:
			
		

> *Epic Level Handbook = Munchkin Level Handbook
> 
> That's all I have to say about that *




*shrugs*

Not everyone is intimidated by powerful player characters, or lacks the talent to run high powered campaigns of compelling drama.


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## Krug (Jul 11, 2002)

*Funny you should say that...*



			
				Oracular Vision said:
			
		

> *Epic Level Handbook = Munchkin Level Handbook
> 
> That's all I have to say about that *




But.. the covers are different!


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## Eternalknight (Jul 11, 2002)

Oracular Vision said:
			
		

> *Epic Level Handbook = Munchkin Level Handbook
> 
> That's all I have to say about that *




I run a game that I like to think plays out like a movie or TV show, and these two mediums are both full of powerful characters and villians.  I'm looking forward to this book.


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## Angelsboi (Jul 11, 2002)

i agree.  I hate Elminster as much as the next guy (in fact, im recreating him and keeping him in Hell but then again im on my own world =) )

I DEFFINATELY plan on using the Epic Level Handbook


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## kreynolds (Jul 11, 2002)

Oracular Vision said:
			
		

> *That's all I have to say about that *




I'm sorry. You said something? I tend to skim through the worthless posts so I must have missed yours.


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## Oracular Vision (Jul 11, 2002)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> *
> 
> *shrugs*
> 
> Not everyone is intimidated by powerful player characters, or lacks the talent to run high powered campaigns of compelling drama. *




Lord CaCa: sure, sure, whatever you say. Compelling drama? What is this, a daytime soap opera? Hope I don't have to play in any of your "talented" games, but I doubt you run any...I don't know who you think you are to belittle someone else who you don't know, but I will say you are terribly, terribly wrong. I could out drama you any day of the week...why don't you go off and play in someone's "high powered campaign of drama" and stop posting your slander. You aren't ready for the big boys...and you don't know what you are talking about...


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## RogueJK (Jul 11, 2002)

Oracular Vision said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Lord CaCa: sure, sure, whatever you say. Compelling drama? What is this, a daytime soap opera? Hope I don't have to play in any of your "talented" games, but I doubt you run any...I don't know who you think you are to belittle someone else who you don't know, but I will say you are terribly, terribly wrong. I could out drama you any day of the week...why don't you go off and play in someone's "high powered campaign of drama" and stop posting your slander. You aren't ready for the big boys...and you don't know what you are talking about... *




My, how... mature. 

Now all we need is a few good rounds of "Uh huh!" and "Nuh uh!", mixed with a little "Oh, yeah?  Your momma!", and it'll be like elementary school all over again.


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## Crothian (Jul 11, 2002)

Oracular Vision said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Lord CaCa: sure, sure, whatever you say. Compelling drama? What is this, a daytime soap opera? Hope I don't have to play in any of your "talented" games, but I doubt you run any...I don't know who you think you are to belittle someone else who you don't know, but I will say you are terribly, terribly wrong. I could out drama you any day of the week...why don't you go off and play in someone's "high powered campaign of drama" and stop posting your slander. You aren't ready for the big boys...and you don't know what you are talking about... *




Let's try to refrain from personal attacks on these boards.  Jst as he doesn't know you, you don't know him.  It works both ways.


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## Ashrem Bayle (Jul 11, 2002)

Oracular Vision said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Lord CaCa: sure, sure, whatever you say. Compelling drama? What is this, a daytime soap opera? Hope I don't have to play in any of your "talented" games, .....[blah,[blah]...and you don't know what you are talking about... *




ROFLMAO!


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## Oracular Vision (Jul 11, 2002)

Crothian said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Let's try to refrain from personal attacks on these boards.  Jst as he doesn't know you, you don't know him.  It works both ways. *




And who started it? I think, noble as you are, that people should be allowed to attack you, and you should not be allowed to defend yourself. How would that be? Let's try it. Unless you are a Mod, don't tell people what to do. Can you resist and follow your own advice? We will see...


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## Oracular Vision (Jul 11, 2002)

One last thought for those of you whose sense of drama is totally encompassed by rolling their eyes or being glad of short comments, I made a small mistake.

It should be Uber-Munchkin Level Handbook...

I hope they have a nice section about tea-parties and evil twins for all the "drama" fans here...


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## Crothian (Jul 11, 2002)

Oracular Vision said:
			
		

> *
> 
> And who started it? I think, noble as you are, that people should be allowed to attack you, and you should not be allowed to defend yourself. How would that be? Let's try it. Unless you are a Mod, don't tell people what to do. Can you resist and follow your own advice? We will see... *




In the future if you have any problems with what I post it would be much better to use e-mail so that the discussion can be done without bothering the other posters.  Thank you.   

My statement was not an attack on anyone.  While the Mods do try to keep this place civil, I believe that they can't be anywhere so asking people to be civil is not out of line.


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## Sir Osis of Liver (Jul 11, 2002)

Wow! I wounder if it's actually possible to have a thread about Epic level play with out somebody starting a big flame war. I've benn suckered into fighting over the subject before myself, it ain't worth it, believe me.


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## kreynolds (Jul 11, 2002)

Oracular Vision said:
			
		

> *Compelling drama? What is this, a daytime soap opera? Hope I don't have to play in any of your "talented" games, but I doubt you run any*




Yes. Compelling drama? Do you not like games with drama? Do you just prefer hack-n-slash?



			
				Oracular Vision said:
			
		

> *I don't know who you think you are to belittle someone else who you don't know, but I will say you are terribly, terribly wrong. *




He wasn't belittling you. He just didn't waste the time to be polite to you.



			
				Oracular Vision said:
			
		

> *I could out drama you any day of the week *




Oh. So you do like drama in your games then? Then what are you whining about?



			
				Oracular Vision said:
			
		

> *why don't you go off and play in someone's "high powered campaign of drama" and stop posting your slander. *




*I don't think I even need to comment on this one.* 



			
				Oracular Vision said:
			
		

> *You aren't ready for the big boys *




When they show up, let me know.



			
				Oracular Vision said:
			
		

> *and you don't know what you are talking about... *




Wow. I'm so....moved.


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## kreynolds (Jul 11, 2002)

Oracular Vision said:
			
		

> *And who started it? *




You did, with a worthless post. Frankly, you invited Kai Lord to comment on your post. It's just too bad that he found it before I did.



			
				Oracular Vision said:
			
		

> *I think, noble as you are, that people should be allowed to attack you, and you should not be allowed to defend yourself. *




Crothian can defend himself quite well, but the you wanna know the best part? He doens't have to defend himself. Why? He never attacks anyone.

Besides, I think it's working out just fine right now with you being incapable of justifying your post.



			
				Oracular Vision said:
			
		

> *How would that be? *




See previous answer.



			
				Oracular Vision said:
			
		

> *Let's try it. *




See previous answer.



			
				Oracular Vision said:
			
		

> *Unless you are a Mod, don't tell people what to do. *




He didn't tell you what to do. In fact, he prefaced his post with "Let's try...".



			
				Oracular Vision said:
			
		

> *Can you resist and follow your own advice? *




Huh?



			
				Oracular Vision said:
			
		

> *We will see... *




[suspense music track]*DUN-Dun-dunnnn.......*[/suspense music track]


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## kreynolds (Jul 11, 2002)

Oracular Vision said:
			
		

> *One last thought for those of you whose sense of drama is totally encompassed by rolling their eyes or being glad of short comments, I made a small mistake. *




Yes. It was posting in such a hostile manner towards Kai Lord, who was merely replying to your pointless post. If you don't have anything to offer, please resist the urge to waste bandwidth and don't post. You'll be able to avoid situations like this in the future.

(Yes. I suppose I just told you what to do. Forgive me.  )


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## TiQuinn (Jul 11, 2002)

*Re: ELH*

I can guess the answer to this, but how can anyone say that the book is for "Uber-Munchkins" if they haven't even read it yet?

Anyways....I've certainly never played or DMed characters that far along into a campaign so I have no idea what to expect from the feats, or even how to judge whether or not they may/may not be too powerful.  Anyone have any tips on what to watch out for?  What in the ELH would set off your warning alarms?


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## Ashtal (Jul 11, 2002)

Folks, I've just received an email about this thread.

Now, I have to go back and read four pages to see what's up.  In the interim, if there is attitude/nastiness, put a cork in it.  

I'm off to read ...


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## BlackMoria (Jul 11, 2002)

Ashtal:  Same old, same old.  Children aren't getting along in the sandbox  

<that is a joke, for the oversenstive among you>


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## Ashtal (Jul 11, 2002)

*massages temples*

Oracular Vision ... apparently you feel the need to come into a thread, belittle the topic of conversation, and then proceed to get nasty.  Don't.  Not that I am thrilled with some of the responses, but you got nasty almost from the get go.

Some advice: don't like the topic?  Don't post in the thread then.  If you want to argue about whether or not something su><><ors and then take the opportunity to bash on people, go to another board.  It's not tolerated here.

Let's get the thread back to topic, and no more nastiness.  Kay folks?


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## Nightfall (Jul 11, 2002)

My own opinions about the ELH:

What I like: The chance to do stats for creatures and NPCs of nearly legendary proportions THAT do add drama and intrigue. Example: In a generic setting, I could make a Blackguard Prince, one whom has acheived great power AND also functions as a Divine Emmisary for his/her god/goddess. In a more non-generic setting, three favorite villians, Virduk, Duke Travik and Anteas, ALL are deserving of epic levels. Anteas I'd give a few more wizard levels, making him fairly powerful AND access to powerful ritual magics. Duke Travik, definately more levels in Blackguard. The guy deserves it!  Virduk, probably more fighter but also perhaps some in blackguard too. These are the kinds of people I want to see more of. 

What I dislike: Trying to think two steps ahead of my fellow gaming groupies.  But I'll survive.


----------



## mikebr99 (Jul 11, 2002)

The spells and feats out of this thing is really going to dramatically increase the power curve of your characters...

Dragon Strike spell: Summons 10 adult red dragons for 20 rnds. Attacks opponents to best of it's abilities...

30th level rogues will be sneak attacking for 15d6 (without any bumping from feats), and with Lingering Damage feat, target will be taking sneak attack damage on the next round also.

Automatic Quicken Spell feat: all your 0 through 3rd level spells are now always quickened... without the level increase.

Balance in a cloud... DC 120

Swim up a waterfall... DC 80

Epic Toughness... +20 hps

+1 to abilities are now individual feats

Intensify Spell feat... all variable, numeric effects are maximized, then doubled.

Vorpal Strike feat... unarmed attacks now considered to be vorpal.



Just something to wet your appetite... 

Mike


----------



## mattcolville (Jul 11, 2002)

mikebr99 said:
			
		

> *The spells and feats out of this thing is really going to dramatically increase the power curve of your characters...
> 
> Dragon Strike spell: Summons 10 adult red dragons for 20 rnds. Attacks opponents to best of it's abilities...
> 
> ...




Dude you have got to be *making this shahit up!*  10 dragons!


----------



## Mythtify (Jul 11, 2002)

I looking forward to the book, but not the price .  It will be intresting to read, even if I never have a character that makes it that far.  I rember the old DnD Immortals edition.  That is the last time in my memory, that there has been anything of this type done.   Granted, epic level characters arent immortal, but they are going to be very powerful.

I don't think that creating challenges for epic level characters will be impossible.  With the ability to have mosters advance as characters, virtualy any creature can be made epic level.  

The only area of concern to me, with regards to an on going campaign, is how to work in epic level adventures with out ruining the world the players have been playing in for a long time.   How to work in all this epic level stuff, and have a scene of continuity.  With epic level npc's, they can always be "the power behind the throne" type of explination.   Epic level monster though seem to present a problem.

How to explain the exsistance of epic level mosters with out sending players to a part of the world they have never been to before.  How to work the monsters into the game as if they have always been a part of the world, while the players have never even heard hints and rumors of such powerful creatures.

It wont be impossible, but it will be a challenge.


----------



## mikebr99 (Jul 11, 2002)

mattcolville said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Dude you have got to be making this shahit up!  10 dragons! *




Sorry... all true...


----------



## Lady Dragon (Jul 11, 2002)

I think thats why they have created a city just for epic level characters.If you don't want to turn your world into an epic playground take the show off world.


----------



## mikebr99 (Jul 11, 2002)

Mythtify said:
			
		

> *I looking forward to the book, but not the price .  It will be intresting to read, even if I never have a character that makes it that far.  I rember the old DnD Immortals edition.  That is the last time in my memory, that there has been anything of this type done.   Granted, epic level characters arent immortal, but they are going to be very powerful.
> *



they might as well be...

Extended lifespan feat... 50% increase in max age every time you take it.



> *
> I don't think that creating challenges for epic level characters will be impossible.  With the ability to have mosters advance as characters, virtualy any creature can be made epic level.
> *



There is an epic red dragon example with 1434 hps...


> *
> The only area of concern to me, with regards to an on going campaign, is how to work in epic level adventures with out ruining the world the players have been playing in for a long time.   How to work in all this epic level stuff, and have a scene of continuity.  With epic level npc's, they can always be "the power behind the throne" type of explination.   Epic level monster though seem to present a problem.
> *



Chapter in this stuff also...


> *
> How to explain the exsistance of epic level mosters with out sending players to a part of the world they have never been to before.  How to work the monsters into the game as if they have always been a part of the world, while the players have never even heard hints and rumors of such powerful creatures.
> 
> It wont be impossible, but it will be a challenge. *




The power progression of characters through the first 20 levels is fairly linear... It gets a whole lot steeper after that!!!


----------



## Hakkenshi (Jul 11, 2002)

You know, I really don't get why people are so annoyed at the ELH. Obviously the "if-you-don't-like-it-don't-buy-it" theory can't satisfy the naysayers (which mystifies me), but why is it that people who play Epic-Level games are automatically munchkins?

Someone said (and apologies to that person for not remembering who it was) that munchkins are characters that have gotten their level of power without truly deserving it. While the definition doesn't entirely cover it for me, I really agree with this, because some characters HAVE gotten to high levels--and then to epic levels--quite legitimately. Is a character less valid because he's high-level???

I mean, if you follow the XP rewards from the DMG, in the time it takes to really build a character (in terms of story), you WILL have achieved fairly high levels, and that's without counting story XP awards (which I think most people should encourage, if only to convince the hack-n-slashers that there's an alternative). You could even conceivably reach high levels based on story XP alone, if you play in a very intrigue-heavy campaign!

So either I rolled too low on my Int score to understand the profound ramifications of this issue, or else it's actually been blown WAY out of proportion.  

I for one am interested in ELH, if only to see what the truly EPIC heroes can be like. Doesn't even mean I'll use it, but if it gives me even ONE great idea, it'll be worth it.


----------



## zhouj (Jul 11, 2002)

*Dragon Strike*

*takes out ELH*, The epic spell Dragon Strike summons 10 adult red dragons (CR 14 each, EL 21)who usually breath flame (total damage 120d10)and attack for the duration of 2 minutes. But the spellcraft DC to research it is DC 50 which makes it viable for a 37th level caster to have 50/50 chance of accomplishing it with a mininum caster level of 28. It also costs 450,000 gp and 18000 XP to research. It also takes you and 10 other spellcasters capable of casting 9th level spells to cast and it costs 2800 XP per each casting per each person. What is the most fearsome spell is the "Vengeful Gaze of God" which does 305d6 damage to a target up to around 2 miles away although it does 200d6 damage to the caster. Basically suicide...


----------



## mikebr99 (Jul 11, 2002)

*Re: Dragon Strike*



			
				zhouj said:
			
		

> **takes out ELH*, The epic spell Dragon Strike summons 10 adult red dragons (CR 14 each, EL 21)who usually breath flame (total damage 120d10)and attack for the duration of 2 minutes. But the spellcraft DC to research it is DC 50 <snip> *



Make that DC 500...


> *<snip>
> which makes it viable for a 37th level caster to have 50/50 chance of accomplishing it with a mininum caster level of 28. It also costs 450,000 gp and 18000 XP to research. It also takes you and 10 other spellcasters capable of casting 9th level spells to cast and it costs 2800 XP per each casting per each person. What is the most fearsome spell is the "Vengeful Gaze of God" which does 305d6 damage to a target up to around 2 miles away although it does 200d6 damage to the caster. Basically suicide... *


----------



## Numion (Jul 11, 2002)

I don't get the HIGH POWER = MUNCHKIN equation.

Munchkinism isn't tied to the power level of campaign, really. Munchkins tend to raise the level as they go, but you can be a munchkin and play CoC for example. (Chaosium version.) 

Munchkinism isn't tied to the game, setting or power level. Munchkins just are. 

If your game wasn't munched out before the Epic levels, it won't be in epic levels.


----------



## zhouj (Jul 11, 2002)

*Re: Dragon Strike*

I checked, it is DC 50, the highest DC to research an epic spell is 417 for Vengeful Gaze of God.


----------



## Crothian (Jul 11, 2002)

Does it have any new uses for old skills or does it just list super high DC for amzing manuveurs?


----------



## zhouj (Jul 11, 2002)

Crothian said:
			
		

> *Does it have any new uses for old skills or does it just list super high DC for amzing manuveurs? *




Super high DC's for amazing manuveurs mainly...


----------



## Lady Dragon (Jul 11, 2002)

yes there are new uses for old skills,for pretty much all of the skills any particular skill you interested in.


----------



## mikebr99 (Jul 11, 2002)

Crothian said:
			
		

> *Does it have any new uses for old skills or does it just list super high DC for amzing manuveurs? *




Mainly that second thing...

Bluff, DC 100... disguise surface thoughts.

Escape artist, DC 120... pass through a wall of force.

Spellcraft, DC 70+... identify all properties of magic item.

And my personal fav...

Swim, DC 80... swim up waterfall!!!


----------



## Forrester (Jul 11, 2002)

mikebr99 said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Mainly that second thing...
> 
> ...




I just gotta say that I think some of these DCs are way off. I think it should be easier to disguise one's surface thoughts ("LA LA LA LA LA LA LA") than swim up a freaking waterfall. 

I think the Listen DC to foil an illusion with an audible component is DC80, isn't it? That seems pretty damn high to me as well. I guess they expect everyone to have items that increase skill checks by +30 (again, it's all about The Magic Items), and so they had to do some inflating . . . ?


----------



## mikebr99 (Jul 11, 2002)

Forrester said:
			
		

> *
> I think the Listen DC to foil an illusion with an audible component is DC80, isn't it? *




Yup... DC 80 listen to defeat an Illusion with auditory component.


----------



## kreynolds (Jul 11, 2002)

Forrester said:
			
		

> *I guess they expect everyone to have items that increase skill checks by +30 (again, it's all about The Magic Items) *




That's funny (not really), because you can already have items that give a skill bonus of +30 (and epic skill bonus is +31 or higher). You don't have to be epic level to get that. So technically, why should you have at least one? I mean, hey, you've been stomping around for 20 levels kicking the crap outta every baddie you find, saving entire continents from a fiery hell, yada yada yada. You're bound to get some nice equipment along the way.


----------



## Metalsmith (Jul 11, 2002)

*Prolly a little late*



			
				RogueJK said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Now all we need is a few good rounds of "Uh huh!" and "Nuh uh!", mixed with a little "Oh, yeah?  Your momma!", and it'll be like elementary school all over again. *






YO MAMMA! 

Metalsmith


----------



## Ristamar (Jul 11, 2002)

Forrester said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I just gotta say that I think some of these DCs are way off. I think it should be easier to disguise one's surface thoughts ("LA LA LA LA LA LA LA") than swim up a freaking waterfall.
> *




Eh...  if you were thinking 'la la la la la la la', those would be your surface thoughts.  If someone read your surface thoughts at that time, that's what they'd pick up -- 'la la la la la la la.'  You're not exactly disguising your thoughts, you're just turning yourself into a mentally gibbering idiot.

Now, I'm not saying it's not effective if you're trying to hide something, but I don't think it's quite the same thing as what is implied in the ELH.


----------



## kreynolds (Jul 11, 2002)

*Re: Prolly a little late*



			
				Metalsmith said:
			
		

> *YO MAMMA!
> 
> Metalsmith *




*YO MAMMA! YO MAMMA! YO MAMMA! YO!
YO MAMMA! YO MAMMA! YO MAMMA! YO!
YO MAMMA! YO MAMMA! YO MAMMA! YO!
PUT YA' HANDS UP! HO-OOOO! PUT YA' HANDS UP! HO-OOOO!*

...ahem...sorry.


----------



## kreynolds (Jul 11, 2002)

Ristamar said:
			
		

> *Eh...  if you were thinking 'la la la la la la la', those would be your surface thoughts.  If someone read your surface thoughts at that time, that's what they'd pick up -- 'la la la la la la la.'  You're not exactly disguising your thoughts, you're just turning yourself into a mental gibbering idiot. *




ROTFLMAO  Oh my god! Now *that's* funny!!!


----------



## Crothian (Jul 11, 2002)

kreynolds said:
			
		

> *
> 
> That's funny (not really), because you can already have items that give a skill bonus of +30 (and epic skill bonus is +31 or higher). You don't have to be epic level to get that. So technically, why should you have at least one? I mean, hey, you've been stomping around for 20 levels kicking the crap outta every baddie you find, saving entire continents from a fiery hell, yada yada yada. You're bound to get some nice equipment along the way. *




Who knew that a first level spell (Jump) would be one small point lower then epic level?  Personally, I've yet to have a character with greater then a +20 skill bonus in an item.  My rogue had lock pickjs that gave +20 to open locks and disable device.  Other then that I had a bard that got +10 to perform through a magical instrument and my Ranger has boots that grant +10 to jump.  And of those only the rogue is epic, the bard stopped at 20th level, and the Ranger is level 4.  So, do people find or create a lot of items that grant skill bonuses?  As you can see in the games I play in and have run it seems to be pretty rare.


----------



## Forrester (Jul 11, 2002)

kreynolds said:
			
		

> *
> 
> That's funny (not really), because you can already have items that give a skill bonus of +30 (and epic skill bonus is +31 or higher). You don't have to be epic level to get that. So technically, why should you have at least one? I mean, hey, you've been stomping around for 20 levels kicking the crap outta every baddie you find, saving entire continents from a fiery hell, yada yada yada. You're bound to get some nice equipment along the way. *




Yeah, but an item that allows you to do something *far* better, unskilled, than the most most most trained person in the land can do it (without magic) seems to me to be kind o' silly. Items that give boosts, sure. But this goes back to the point of the other thread -- the *OVERWHELMING* importance of Loot to character abilities. Without their millions of gold pieces in magic items, most epic-level characters pretty much suck, unless they're wizards or clerics.


----------



## coyote6 (Jul 11, 2002)

Ristamar said:
			
		

> *Eh...  if you were thinking 'la la la la la la la', those would be your surface thoughts.  If someone read your surface thoughts at that time, that's what they'd pick up -- 'la la la la la la la.'  You're not exactly disguising your thoughts, you're just turning yourself into a mentally gibbering idiot.
> 
> Now, I'm not saying it's not effective if you're trying to hide something, but I don't think it's quite the same thing as what is implied in the ELH. *




Right. I'd assume the DC 100 trick would allow you to be thinking, "Okay, Elzar's distraction will draw the balcony guards away any moment, so I need to get next to the wizard so I can slit his throat before he can do anything to save the king from Lodin's arrow", yet have the king's surface thought-reading bodyguards pick up, "That's a marvelous doublet the prince is wearing. I must ask him who the tailor is. I wonder if it's elven."


----------



## Forrester (Jul 11, 2002)

Ristamar said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Eh...  if you were thinking 'la la la la la la la', those would be your surface thoughts.  If someone read your surface thoughts at that time, that's what they'd pick up -- 'la la la la la la la.'  You're not exactly disguising your thoughts, you're just turning yourself into a mentally gibbering idiot.
> 
> Now, I'm not saying it's not effective if you're trying to hide something, but I don't think it's quite the same thing as what is implied in the ELH. *




You know what I'm talking about . 

Let's all go back to the Simpson's Halloween episode where Homer is trying to sneak up on Bart to kill him with an axe. (Because Bart is that 12-year old Twilight Zone boy that can wish people into cornfields, etc.) 

Bart can read surface thoughts. Home sneaks up behind him with the axe thinking to himself "Just walk up to him, just walk up to him, don't think about anything, don't think about how you're going hit him with this . . . <POP>" and Homer is now a Homer-in-a-box. 

I think it's unreasonable that Homer should have had to make a Bluff check with DC100 to fool Bart, epic-level though Bart might have been .


----------



## kreynolds (Jul 11, 2002)

Forrester said:
			
		

> *Yeah, but an item that allows you to do something far better, unskilled, than the most most most trained person in the land can do it (without magic) seems to me to be kind o' silly. *




You *are* an exceptional hero/adventurer. Don't forget that. I know, I'm one of those crazy folks that think heroes should be far far far above the norm, and I figure +30 is far far far above the norm. 

EDIT: Whoops. Forgot the smiley.


----------



## Ristamar (Jul 11, 2002)

Forrester said:
			
		

> *
> 
> You know what I'm talking about .
> 
> ...




Hmm.  Well, I don't know.  As amusing as the example was, I think it comes down to a matter of personal taste.   It's akin to arguing over whether or not a magical fireball shooting from a old man's gnarled finger would REALLY do X amount of damage.


----------



## Kweezil (Jul 11, 2002)

*Re: Dragon Strike*



			
				zhouj said:
			
		

> * -snip-*What is the most fearsome spell is the "Vengeful Gaze of God" which does 305d6 damage to a target up to around 2 miles away  -snip-*




You forgot the Fortitude save for half


----------



## hong (Jul 12, 2002)

Forrester said:
			
		

> *
> 
> You know what I'm talking about .
> 
> ...




Yeah, but this example involved Homer. I think that episode would have been funnier if Homer _had_ managed to get to Bart, not having had any thoughts at all for Bart to pick up.

Basically what the DC is for is to foil the detect thoughts spell, which is a de facto life-detecting spell. If all you want is to foil an interrogation, that's handled via Will saves vs zone of truth, detect lies etc.


----------



## Metalsmith (Jul 12, 2002)

*Re: Re: Dragon Strike*



			
				Kweezil said:
			
		

> *
> 
> You forgot the Fortitude save for half  *




A GOOD reason to take the Templar Prestige Class.


Metalsmith
(who still thinks the idea of an adventuring Temple Defender is stupid)


----------



## Plane Sailing (Jul 12, 2002)

*Re: Re: Dragon Strike*



> Originally posted by zhouj
> -snip-*What is the most fearsome spell is the "Vengeful Gaze of God" which does 305d6 damage to a target up to around 2 miles away -snip-






			
				Kweezil said:
			
		

> *
> You forgot the Fortitude save for half  *




I wonder, can you use "Intensify spell" epic metamagic on that? Maximised and doubled?


----------



## Paul_Klein (Jul 12, 2002)

Would a character look like a salmon swimming up a waterfall?


----------



## Numion (Jul 12, 2002)

Forrester said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Yeah, but an item that allows you to do something far better, unskilled, than the most most most trained person in the land can do it (without magic) seems to me to be kind o' silly. *




Your gripe seems to be with the D&D idea that an adventurer is the sum of flesh and blood _and_ equipment. 

IMHO, the distinction between the character and its eq isn't necessary, and doesn't even exist in most players' minds. I've noticed that my players pretty much equate their character to be the whole 'package', including his stuff. 

Maybe +30 is a lot, but in todays society it might apply too. Scuba gear could easily give you that much to swimming skill, since you can't drown in it. Ok, maybe not +30, but it's not magical either.


----------



## Blacksad (Jul 12, 2002)

*Re: Dragon Strike*



			
				zhouj said:
			
		

> *But the spellcraft DC to research it is DC 50 which makes it viable for a 37th level caster to have 50/50 chance of accomplishing it with a mininum caster level of 28. *




That is the thing that bother me most in the ELH, it should have a rule that increase dramaticaly the cost of item that grant bonus to spellcraft check.

A DC50 could be made by a level 21 wizards with a +30 item (non-epic) 

I think I won't use their 10th level spell system


----------



## Pickering (Jul 12, 2002)

mikebr99 said:
			
		

> *The spells and feats out of this thing is really going to dramatically increase the power curve of your characters...
> 
> Dragon Strike spell: Summons 10 adult red dragons for 20 rnds. Attacks opponents to best of it's abilities...
> 
> ...




Hey can you tell me what the DC for this spell is.  Ever since I saw Dragon 297 I have been on edge inanticipation of what my Wizard might one day be able to do.


----------



## mikebr99 (Jul 12, 2002)

Pickering said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Hey can you tell me what the DC for this spell is.  Ever since I saw Dragon 297 I have been on edge inanticipation of what my Wizard might one day be able to do. *




Hey Pickering... 

DC 150 - Eternal Freedom

DC 319 - Dire Winter

DC 419 - Vengeful Gaze of God

DC 500 - Dragon Strike


----------



## Skullfyre (Jul 12, 2002)

*Re: Funny you should say that...*



			
				Krug said:
			
		

> *
> 
> But.. the covers are different!
> 
> ...




ROFLMAO

WTFF


----------



## Sir Osis of Liver (Jul 12, 2002)

I FINALLY GOT IT!!!!!!!! 


That said i can now go and give it the once over.


----------



## Godofredo (Jul 12, 2002)

Anyone can post the stats of the Holy Devastator Please?

Thanks...

Godo


----------



## Pickering (Jul 12, 2002)

mikebr99 said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Hey Pickering...
> 
> ...




 picks eyeballs off floor


----------



## zhouj (Jul 12, 2002)

*Epic Spells*

Epic spells can not have metamagic feats applied to them. I've never heard of a item that grants +30 to a skill. The limit seems to be +10 so I'm guessing it would need to an artifact.
mikebr99: I've checked dozens of times. I've checked the math for it. The spellcraft DC for Dragon Strike is DC 50, not DC 500. The highest level DC is Vengeful Gaze of God which has a DC of 417.


----------



## mikebr99 (Jul 12, 2002)

Godofredo said:
			
		

> *Anyone can post the stats of the Holy Devastator Please?
> 
> Thanks...
> 
> Godo *




Do you mean the Mace of Devastation?


----------



## kreynolds (Jul 12, 2002)

*Re: Epic Spells*



			
				zhouj said:
			
		

> *Epic spells can not have metamagic feats applied to them. *




Correct.



			
				zhouj said:
			
		

> *I've never heard of a item that grants +30 to a skill. *




So that means it doesn't exhist? Right. 



			
				zhouj said:
			
		

> *The limit seems to be +10 so I'm guessing it would need to an artifact. *




Good guess, but incorrect. The limit is +30. The epic level pricing begins at +31. Also, epic level magic items still are not artifacts, even though they are close to that level of power. Perhaps you are thinking of the +10 limitation to AC bonus types?

Anything that has a market price of over 200,000gp is considered an epic magic item. Keep in mind that in the core rules, anything priced above 200,000gp is considered an artifact, but remember, the epic level rules are not part of the core rules, so if you don't use them, items above 200,000gp are considered artifacts, but not so if you do use the epic level rules.


----------



## Blacksad (Jul 12, 2002)

*Re: Epic Spells*



			
				zhouj said:
			
		

> *I've never heard of a item that grants +30 to a skill. The limit seems to be +10 so I'm guessing it would need to an artifact.
> *




reread the chapter on magic item

an item that grant a skill check bonus of +30 is a normal item, one that gran a +31 item is an epic item (not an artifact).


----------



## mikebr99 (Jul 12, 2002)

*Re: Epic Spells*



			
				zhouj said:
			
		

> *Epic spells can not have metamagic feats applied to them. I've never heard of a item that grants +30 to a skill. The limit seems to be +10 so I'm guessing it would need to an artifact.
> mikebr99: I've checked dozens of times. I've checked the math for it. The spellcraft DC for Dragon Strike is DC 50, not DC 500. The highest level DC is Vengeful Gaze of God which has a DC of 417. *







> Dragon Strike
> Conjuration (Summoning) [Fire]
> Spellcraft DC: 68
> Components: V, S
> ...




See development:

Seed: Summon (DC 14)
summon creature CR 2 other than outsiders +10 DC
summon CR 14 creature +24 DC

Subtotal = 48

summon 10 such creatures x10 DC
1 action casting time +20 DC

Total = 500 DC

What am I missing?


----------



## zhouj (Jul 12, 2002)

*Re: Re: Epic Spells*



			
				kreynolds said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Correct.
> 
> ...



 Where exactly are the limits for the magic items listed?


----------



## zhouj (Jul 12, 2002)

*Re: Re: Epic Spells*



			
				mikebr99 said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The mitigating factors. -170 DC for 10 additional casters with 9th level slots. Plus -280 DC for all casters burning 2800 XP.


----------



## WildWeasel (Jul 12, 2002)

*Re: Re: Epic Spells*



			
				mikebr99 said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The mitigating factors of 10 extra casters who each have to burn a 9th level slot (-170 DC) and 2,800 XP apiece (-280 DC).


----------



## kreynolds (Jul 12, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Epic Spells*



			
				zhouj said:
			
		

> *Where exactly are the limits for the magic items listed? *




The ELH defines the non-epic limits. These limits also define non-artifacts in the DMG, though they are not listed in it.


----------



## Avarice (Jul 12, 2002)

*Re: Epic Spells*



			
				zhouj said:
			
		

> *Epic spells can not have metamagic feats applied to them. I've never heard of a item that grants +30 to a skill. The limit seems to be +10 so I'm guessing it would need to an artifact.
> mikebr99: I've checked dozens of times. I've checked the math for it. The spellcraft DC for Dragon Strike is DC 50, not DC 500. The highest level DC is Vengeful Gaze of God which has a DC of 417. *




Yeah, a limit of +10 would seem sensible, but its just not the case.  A ring of jumping grants a +30 bonus to jump checks for instance; no epic alterations required.  And for the bargain basement price of 2k gp, no less!   Get 'em before your DM sobers up!


----------



## Steven McRownt (Jul 12, 2002)

What about an EPIC level COMMONERS? Do they can irrigate a field in some minutes or grow crops in desert?  

Steven McRownt


----------



## Ashrem Bayle (Jul 12, 2002)

hehe

Profession (Farming) DC:100  Grow corn on iceburg.


----------



## mikebr99 (Jul 12, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Epic Spells*



			
				WildWeasel said:
			
		

> *
> 
> The mitigating factors of 10 extra casters who each have to burn a 9th level slot (-170 DC) and 2,800 XP apiece (-280 DC). *



Ok... where are these numbers from?


----------



## WildWeasel (Jul 12, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Epic Spells*



			
				mikebr99 said:
			
		

> *
> Ok... where are these numbers from? *




ELH p.77, in the To Develop block for Dragon Strike.


----------



## kreynolds (Jul 12, 2002)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> *hehe
> 
> Profession (Farming) DC:100  Grow corn on iceburg.
> 
> *




Even better....

Profession (farming) DC:130  Grow iceburg on corn in desert.


----------



## zhouj (Jul 12, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Epic Spells*



			
				mikebr99 said:
			
		

> *
> Ok... where are these numbers from? *




Under the spell listing in the ELH epic spells section.


----------



## kreynolds (Jul 12, 2002)

*Re: Re: Epic Spells*



			
				Avarice said:
			
		

> *A ring of jumping grants a +30 bonus to jump checks for instance; no epic alterations required.  And for the bargain basement price of 2k gp, no less!   Get 'em before your DM sobers up!  *




The trick with the Ring of Jumping though is that the Jump skill doesn't benefit from bonuses on a 1 to 1 ratio like the rest of the skills.

Technically, any +30 bonus to a skill would cost a mere 18,000gp, but I tweak that price based on the skill. For example, I would price a +30 bonus to Swim checks at roughly 18,000gp (sticking with the formula), but I would price a Diplomacy bonus at roughly 36,000gp (the normal price doubled, mostly because a really high Diplomacy skill bonus grants you an awful lot of power in regards to influencing the NPCs around you). Sure, following the formula is pretty cheap, but you have to remember that there are a lot of skills, and you only have so many slots to place items, and unslotted items are double the cost. Let me illustrate what I mean...

1) An amulet that grants +30 to Hide would technically cost 18,000gp. However, if you then add an addition power, +30 to Move Silently, the cost jumps to 54,000gp (the Move Silently bonus is doubled because it's a similar power on a slotted item). So, the price just keeps jumping higher and higher.

2) The same amulet, unslotted, would cost 72,000gp (18,000gp <hide> + 18,000gp <move silently> x 2 <unslotted item>)


----------



## mikebr99 (Jul 12, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Epic Spells*



			
				zhouj said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Under the spell listing in the ELH epic spells section. *




If you say so... I can't find it.

It doesn't say in the Dragon Strike epic spell that you and 10 other people need to be in on the development. the 500 DC is for one developer.


----------



## WildWeasel (Jul 12, 2002)

*Re: Epic Spells*



			
				mikebr99 said:
			
		

> *
> 
> If you say so... I can't find it.
> 
> It doesn't say in the Dragon Strike epic spell that you and 10 other people need to be in on the development. the 500 DC is for one developer. *




No, the development has the mitigating factor of it takes 10 other people with 9th level slots to cast, which reduces the Spellcarft DC of the spell, which is 1) the number used to figure the development cost, and 2) the Spellcraft DC to cast the spell.  There's no difference between the values for 1 and 2.

Do you have the book?  It's right there on page 77.


----------



## Crothian (Jul 12, 2002)

I just picked this up and read through it.  Not too bad.  It's obvious that the most powerful thing is going to be the magic.  So as long as you keep control of what magical items the players have, I think power levels will not be so bad.  Sure, some of the feats are majorly impressive, but it's the magic that will get you in the end.  The art, what little there is, was well done.  Overall, I'm happy with this and I think it wioll get some use.


----------



## Sir Osis of Liver (Jul 12, 2002)

I just leveled my "epic Character" and he's not overwhelmingly more powerful than before. He was a fighter14/sorcerer6 i had earned enough xp to make him 23 so now he's Fighter 16/ sorcerer 7 all he got was 10 hp's, one ability increase, +1 to saves, +2 att bonus, and two feats(haven't picked them yet.
It seems to me that as promissed the power curve stays rather constant.

Although i've yet to look through the magic info.


So far i'd say this is definatly NOT the munchin level handbook.


----------



## WizarDru (Jul 12, 2002)

mikebr99 said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Do you mean the Mace of Devastation? *





No, the Holy Devastator is a Paladin Weapon.  I don't have the book in front of me at the moment, but I recall that in the hands of a Paladin, it becomes a +7 Holy sword with additional abilities, but I don't recall exactly which.


I have to disagree about the art, though.  It is, IMHO, fairly uneven.  Some excellent art, and then an occasional really bad piece, like the paladin riding on horseback, for example.


----------



## mikebr99 (Jul 12, 2002)

*Re: Re: Epic Spells*



			
				WildWeasel said:
			
		

> *
> 
> No, the development has the mitigating factor of it takes 10 other people with 9th level slots to cast, which reduces the Spellcarft DC of the spell, which is 1) the number used to figure the development cost, and 2) the Spellcraft DC to cast the spell.  There's no difference between the values for 1 and 2.
> 
> Do you have the book?  It's right there on page 77. *




I posted the spell once... was it wrong? Here, I'll do it again, is my copy incorrect?


> Dragon Strike
> Conjuration (Summoning) [Fire]
> Spellcraft DC: 68
> Components: V, S
> ...




The only mitigating factor is... 







> factor: 1 action casting time +20 DC




The only spell I see with a multiple helper Mitigating factor is... 







> Eternal Freedom
> Abjuration
> Spellcraft DC: 150
> Components: V, S, Ritual, XP Cost: 10,000
> ...



Someone please tell me if my copy isn't correct...


----------



## mikebr99 (Jul 12, 2002)

Sir Osis of Liver said:
			
		

> *and two feats(haven't picked them yet).
> It seems to me that as promissed the power curve stays rather constant.
> 
> Although i've yet to look through the magic info.
> ...




It's the feats and the magic items... both of which you haven't picked yet.


----------



## zhouj (Jul 12, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Epic Spells*



			
				mikebr99 said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I posted the spell once... was it wrong? Here, I'll do it again, is my copy incorrect?
> 
> ...




Your copy is definitely incorrect.


----------



## kreynolds (Jul 12, 2002)

Crothian said:
			
		

> *  So as long as you keep control of what magical items the players have, I think power levels will not be so bad. *




That won't be too difficult, what with a par of Gauntlets of Strength +8 costing you a whopping 640,000gp.


----------



## Crothian (Jul 12, 2002)

kreynolds said:
			
		

> *
> 
> That won't be too difficult, what with a par of Gauntlets of Strength +8 costing you a whopping 640,000gp. *




Right.  I'm in the middle of redefining my highest level character.  He was made in second edition, but we got up to very high lefels 40+.  So, when 3rd edition came around I translated him, but it didn't work out so well.  I was unhappy with the results.  Then I heard Epic Level was coming so I throw away the first translation and waited for the book.  Now, with the help of ELH and many other expansions I can finally make this the character that he tried to be in second edition.  He's never going to be played again, I might use him for NPC if I ever run in that world.  But so far he really isn't that powerful even with a total of 40 character levels and a template with an ecl +5.


----------



## tburdett (Jul 12, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Epic Spells*



			
				mikebr99 said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I posted the spell once... was it wrong? Here, I'll do it again, is my copy incorrect?
> 
> ...




All of the stuff that you are posting, word for word, is from the Epic Level Playtest document that was freely available on the net.


----------



## Voneth (Jul 13, 2002)

Vecna said:
			
		

> *
> 
> You mean:
> everything don't listed in the ELH-PM
> ...




Though I already heard from a psionic fan that they feel psionics got the shaft. I'd like to see you two talk about. 



> _From the Wizards board _
> *
> I got the Epic Level Handbook and here's ALL it has on psionics:
> 
> ...




So to have psionic blossom after 20th would seem to balance out how limited psionics is before that.  

But it seems that our audience can't agree on what what is balanced for psionics.

Personaly, I wanted them equal or better than spell casters simply because I see them replacements. The PHB classes cover a wide range of roles, it would be difficult to create a new role, especaly for spell casters, that would provide an equal spot light.


----------



## Sir Osis of Liver (Jul 13, 2002)

> It's the feats and the magic items... both of which you haven't picked yet.





I didn't settle on them yet but out of all the ones avialable to me, none will cause a significant rise in power. I already have magic items that i got through play, i can't just pick out some cool epic ones, so for my character it won't be a factor. Although i can see it becomeing one if our DM starts handing them out.


----------



## BryonD (Jul 13, 2002)

Sir Osis of Liver said:
			
		

> *I just leveled my "epic Character" and he's not overwhelmingly more powerful than before. He was a fighter14/sorcerer6 i had earned enough xp to make him 23 so now he's Fighter 16/ sorcerer 7 all he got was 10 hp's, one ability increase, +1 to saves, +2 att bonus, and two feats(haven't picked them yet.
> It seems to me that as promissed the power curve stays rather constant.
> 
> Although i've yet to look through the magic info.
> ...




I agree that the power levels appears fairly steady.

One thing does bug me, though.  I should always be able to tell things like Base Saves and BAB by looking at the character classes.  AS I read it, that is not true for epic levels.  

For example, A F16/S7 could have a BAB ranging from +16 to +18 (with a +2 epic bonus either way). Because you told us he was a F14/S6 I know he has a BAB of +17.  But if he had been a F16/S4 he would have a BAB of +18.  Or if he had been an F13/S7 it would only be +16. 

Obviously, this can be compared to different total skill points based on which class you took at first level, but this seems a lot more substantial to me.


----------



## Regdar (Jul 13, 2002)

> So far i'd say this is definatly NOT the munchin level handbook.




BAHHHHH Regdar says play with it for a while and you will find out all of the "power ups," that are there.

There is no steady power progression, it gets absurd.  If you like that in your game, fine Regdar cares not, but don't say it isn't something to justify it for yourself and others.


----------



## Edena_of_Neith (Jul 13, 2002)

*I AM EXONERATED!*

  

  Quoting from the ELH:

  Your epic characters may shake the pillars of heaven and plumb the depths of hell.  And somehow, that is not enough.  Perhaps they would like to actually become gods.  And why not?  Let them join the divine ranks and remain player characters.  Becoming deities opens new vistas for roleplaying adventures.  Divine ascension need not be the end of the road for your player characters.  In fact,. now they can continue to advance as epic characters and have a chance in a fight against most demigods.  Eventually lesser deities and intermediate deities will respect their power.

  - - -

  A very long time ago (in 1985) my character Edena reached 21st level as a cleric.
  That being the point where he was too high in level to play in a campaign, I retired him.
  However, later on I desired to play him again, and so devised a way to do so:

  I played him at whatever level was appropriate for the scenario.  
  If he gained a level in the lower level game, I gave him a level to add to his original unaltered level.
  Thus, if I played him at 5th level, and he achieved 6th level, his top level went from 21st to 22nd level.

  If he gained experience, but not enough to gain a level, I extrapolated the experience to what he might have proportionately gained at the high level.

  All of this was done with the approval of the many DMs in which I played him (if they did not approve of it, I did not give Edena anything except treasure won in the game in question.)

  In this way, Edena - over the course of more than 10 years of playing - went from 21st level to 113th level.

  I then had the character dual-class, and started him as a mage.
  He made it up to around 9th level as a mage, then I extrapolated as per above beyond that point.

  Edena finally became a cleric 121st / mage 40th.

  - - -

  Now, I was much maligned and poo-pooed for the extravagantly high leveled character.
  They made fun of him (and me) on the WOTC message board (to the point where the online staff removed the messages.)
  They made fun of him (and me) in the chat rooms.

  And yet, Edena could not:

  Attack more than once per round.
  Turn Undead anymore effectively than a 19th level cleric.
  Make saving throws better than a 19th level cleric.
  Attack with an attack bonus greater than 30.
  Throw any kind of spell higher than 9th level (True Dweomers, when they came out.)
  Throw more than one spell per round.

  Edena could not:

  Use Feats.
  Use Epic Feats.
  Employ his skills to commit an epic deed.

  Edena never advanced any stat beyond 24.

  Edena COULD throw a lot of spells, for I extrapolated the spell progression table.
  Edena DID have a lot of hit points, by 2nd edition standards (but not by 3rd edition standards.)

  Now, I am exonerated.  Exonerated!

  For now:

  A character can attack 4 times in a round.
  A character can attack 8 times in a round with the right Feat.
  A character can assume another form and attack 4 times in a round per hand the character has, with the right Feats.
  A character can cast 2 spells per round with Quickened Spell.
  A character can cast 3 spells per round with Quickened Spell and Haste.
  A character can cast 4 spells per round with the right Epic Feat.
  A character can cast 10 spells (or more) per round with the right Epic Feat, taken over and over.

  A character's effective THAC0 (from 2nd edition) can drop infinitely (one of those Epic Dragons has a THAC0 of - 91, incidentally.)

  A character can increase in his ability scores infinitely.
  Natural scores of 25 can be obtained by 20th level, and go from there.

  Characters can obtain spell slots beyond 9th level (for the use of metamagic feats), scaling upward indefinitely.

  Characters can throw spells that have saving throw modifiers greater than - 10 (equivalency, in 2nd edition.)

  And, of course, there is the paragraph quoted above.
  Characters can become deities, and when they do, it is ok for them to remain player characters.
  The official, core material says so.

  I do believe that those who scoffed at my (pitifully weak, by Epic standards) cleric/mage, were sorely misled about the reality of the D&D game.

  They stand corrected.  And I stand exonerated.

  Edena_of_Neith


----------



## Crothian (Jul 13, 2002)

*Re: I AM EXONERATED!*



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> *
> Edena finally became a cleric 121st / mage 40th.
> 
> 
> Edena_of_Neith *




Are you planning on converting him level for level into the epic levels to see what he would look like?  I did that with my highest level character, but he's only got 40 character levels, plus a template ecl+5.  It took a few hours of pouring over all my books to try to remakle him in a way second edition never could.  And I'm happy with the result.  It was actually enjoyible.  I then did my 20th level Bard/4th level Lasher.  I stopped at 16th level Bard and then saved up experience until ELH came out.  The campaigns over now, but I wanted to know what it would look like.  Course I took two of the weakest epic feats (Epic Reputation, and Epic Skill Focus: Perform) because those are the two feats he would want first.  

Well, hopefully you'll be able to convert Edena and maybe I'll get to see it posted here.  You'll have at least one person not poking fun at such a character.


----------



## Edena_of_Neith (Jul 13, 2002)

Actually, I now have a VERY serious problem concerning my character, Edena.

  The Gaming Conventions do not allow me to conduct a straight level for level transfer from 2nd edition to 3rd edition for Edena.  (The Gaming Conventions, not to be confused with gaming conventions like Origins, are the unspoken Code of Conduct I follow as a Gamer.)

  Edena, as I said above, cannot do any of the things that an Epic Level character can do.
  Edena's hit points are high (over 200) for 2E, but hardly exceptional in 3E.  
  Edena's enormous spell roster is possible in 3E only if I were to make a straight level transfer, then use all of his possible Feats to add spell slots (which, in my opinion, would be a ridiculous translation in any case.)

  It really follows, therefore, that Edena is not an Epic Level character.
  Yet he is very high level.

  So, what to do?

  A question I am mulling over, with no good answers.

  The option that seems most viable is to make him a 20th level cleric / 1st level wizard for 3rd edition (thus giving him one Epic Level.)
  It is possible that 10 of his clerical levels are actually levels in a Prestige Class (what class, I am not sure yet.)

  Of course, this way strips the character of 139 hard earned levels.
  Not entirely fair to the character.

  I am at a bit of a loss on the translation, to be honest with you, Crothian.

  I AM, at least, exonerated in what I did with the character in the 2nd edition game.
  A point that is immensely gratifying, considering the level of abuse I received over his 160 2nd edition levels.

  Thanks for your support, Crothian.


----------



## Crothian (Jul 13, 2002)

I agree, you have to be true to the character and yourself in any translation.  Did you use the High Level Book in second edition?  Many of those abilities gained by a cleric and a wizard would be considered epic.  And the high spell slots are epic.  And the hit point increase is going to happen.  My rogue has about five times as many hit points in 3rd edition then second.  That's a change in the rules, so I don't see a problem with that.  

Even in the epic feats there are better or worse ones.  Perhaps some of the better epic feats (like the ability to cast Epic Spells) is not something you should take.  Or if there are some skills that he would be very good at you should take Epic Skill Focus.  You might want to cut down the levels a bit, but that would be up to you.  My character I advanced him a little since he's now an NPC and the timeline will be advanced a few centuries next time I run a campaign in it.  

Maybe you should just look at some of the epic feats and other things characters at these levels get and see which abilities fit the character.  And then based on how many you get, assign a level around that that grants you that many epic feats.


----------



## William Ronald (Jul 13, 2002)

*VINDICATION*

Edena, 

Your proposal has a great deal to recommend itself.  It is efficient and there is a big difference between 1st and 3rd Edition.  Here is a possible alternative.

I do have a character I have run since 1st Edition, converted to 2nd Edition, and converted to 3rd using the existing rules.  Now, I have to do the same thing again with the Epic Level Handbook.

If Edena of Neith (the character) was converted to 2nd Edition, what would he be in terms of classes and levels?  I seem to recall that there was a one to one level conversion between 1st and 2nd Edition.

There were also guidelines on converting 2nd Edition characters to 3rd Edition.  Possibly look at the guidelines, after converting Edena to 2nd Edition, and then use your best judgement.  You have mentioned the Gaming Conventions that serve as a moral guide to your gaming  actions.  Let that serve as your moral compass.

If the 160 levels were 2nd edition levels, the conversion process should be fairly easy.   Or you may be more comfortable bringing Edena in line to some of the Epic Level NPCs.  So, perhaps gauge where Edena is in regards to how you would compare some of the NPCs in the Epic Level Handbook and use that as a baseline for comparison.  (Perhaps using the Forgotten Realms characters as a guideline might be appropriate, considering the character's participation in the Realms setting.)

Indeed, Crothian's advice in trying to fit the "feel" of the character makes sense.  You have shown good judgement in the past, so I would not worry too much.

Regardless of how you may redesign your character, I look forward to seeing it.

The key question to me about an epic level hero is: Was the character's power earned?  Your character has had struggles, defeats, and set backs.  So, I think Epic Level status is appropriate.  I will not poke fun at your character or any that to paraphrase Churchill, has earned his power through "blood, sweat, toil and tears."

It looks like you have been vindicated.  I feel sorry that some people have been rude to you in the past.  Perhaps they should apologize now that the rules allow for characters to climb to the heavens themselves.  (I would not hold my breath.)

(A general rule people.  Try to treat each other with respect.  The last time I checked, everyone on this board and on this planet is a human.  Life is to short to spend it in hurting others.)


----------



## drowdude (Jul 13, 2002)

*Re: I AM EXONERATED!*



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> *
> If he gained a level in the lower level game, I gave him a level to add to his original unaltered level.
> Thus, if I played him at 5th level, and he achieved 6th level, his top level went from 21st to 22nd level.
> *






Um, why... would... er...you...  you do.. uh, realize that... uh, it took *MUCH* less XP to go from 5th to 6th, than it did from 21st to 22nd...right?  

From what you describe, I think his levels are overly exaggerated.

You should have just added whatever XP he gained from an adventure to his total regardless of whether or not he earned a level...


----------



## kreynolds (Jul 13, 2002)

Regdar said:
			
		

> *There is no steady power progression, it gets absurd. *




Oh. So you must have playtested the epic level rules from 21st level to 40th level then? Perhaps even as high as 60th level? If you did playtest it, why didn't you fix it? If you didn't playtest from 21st level to 40th level, then where do you draw your judgement from? 

(Note: I'm just pokin' at ya'.)

Seriously though, what made you come to your conclusion that there is no steady power curve? Do you mean there isn't a steady power curve among any given class? Monster? Or is there no steady power curve in relation to all of the classes and monsters?


----------



## Numion (Jul 13, 2002)

kreynolds said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Oh. So you must have playtested the epic level rules from 21st level to 40th level then? Perhaps even as high as 60th level? If you did playtest it, why didn't you fix it? If you didn't playtest from 21st level to 40th level, then where do you draw your judgement from?
> *




From his butthole, of course. This is the internet, what did you expect?


----------



## NeoCR (Jul 13, 2002)

*Re: I AM EXONERATED!*

Uh, no Edena. When you fought with my character, you specifically said in front of everyone that Edena could actually hurl twelve Meteor Swarms in a round. This was over a year before the ELH came out. 

You also fail to leave out a lot of the things you would do, like cast three Wishes in a row and then Gift of Life, and the various other reasons why you annoyed people.  This is not to hound, since I came here to read the posts, as you can see this being my first one, but since you are mentioning us at Wizards, I think it would be good if I stood up to defend those.


----------



## Godofredo (Jul 13, 2002)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> No, the Holy Devastator is a Paladin Weapon.  I don't have the book in front of me at the moment, but I recall that in the hands of a Paladin, it becomes a +7 Holy sword with additional abilities, but I don't recall exactly which.
> ...




Yeah...WizarDru i'm talking about the paladin weapon, can you give me the stats please...

Godo


----------



## V-2 (Jul 13, 2002)

I think people who insult Iconic characters can't be real D&D fans.

For shame, for shame.


----------



## James McMurray (Jul 13, 2002)

Who insulted an iconic? kreynolds with his pointed questions about the origin of Regdar's opinions, or Regdar, with his rendition of the iconic? 

Personally I don't see any insult there.


----------



## kreynolds (Jul 13, 2002)

V-2 said:
			
		

> *I think people who insult Iconic characters can't be real D&D fans. *




I think "iconic characters", being an apparent representative of D&D, should be more careful about what they say.


----------



## V-2 (Jul 14, 2002)

That's even more true for near-avatars of famous game designers. Imagine someone does a google search on Reynolds and your posts turn up. Shock, horror, unending confusion.


----------



## kreynolds (Jul 14, 2002)

V-2 said:
			
		

> *That's even more true for near-avatars of famous game designers. Imagine someone does a google search on Reynolds and your posts turn up. Shock, horror, unending confusion. *




It's not my fault that our screen names are nearly identical. Sean uses his first and middle initials and his last name. I use my first initial and my last name.

Besides, you can find two different disclaimers in every single one of my posts. If someone gets confused because they didn't notice either one, I don't think anyone can help them.


----------



## Kibo (Jul 14, 2002)

*Mellow Drama*



			
				Oracular Vision said:
			
		

> *One last thought for those of you whose sense of drama is totally encompassed by rolling their eyes or being glad of short comments, I made a small mistake.
> 
> It should be Uber-Munchkin Level Handbook...
> 
> I hope they have a nice section about tea-parties and evil twins for all the "drama" fans here... *




I think the most entertaining thing about you, aside from the manner in which you were shouted down, is that you think drama is totally encompased by the realm of soap operas while everyone else is thinking of particularly well done movies or books.

That in and of itself is *quite* telling.  I'm almost afraid that your conception of self improvement is repeating Dr. Phil's catch phrases, subscribing to Oprah's magazine through Publisher's Clearing House and waiting for the prize patrol.  But far be it from me to stoop to your level, well maybe not that far....

But you were right about one thing: Queens like yourself do know a lot about drama, and I think we've all learned a lot from your example here.   (I mean that as an affirmative, empowering statement, and not as an indictment of your chosen life style.)

A Sala Maleka.


----------



## Edena_of_Neith (Jul 14, 2002)

NeoCR said:

  Uh, no Edena. When you fought with my character, you specifically said in front of everyone that Edena could actually hurl twelve Meteor Swarms in a round. This was over a year before the ELH came out. 
  You also fail to leave out a lot of the things you would do, like cast three Wishes in a row and then Gift of Life, and the various other reasons why you annoyed people.  This is not to hound, since I came here to read the posts, as you can see this being my first one, but since you are mentioning us at Wizards, I think it would be good if I stood up to defend those.

  ANSWER

  Hey there, NeoCR.
  Welcome to the ENBoard.  

  Edena did indeed cast twelve Meteor Swarms in a round.
  Edena did indeed cast three Wishes in a row.
  And then Gift of Life, to boot.

  One must remember that there were a number of game-breaking spells in 1st and 2nd edition:  one of these was Tempus Fugit, which allowed a super-haste effect where the character could move at 6x normal speed.
  And back then, it was possible to stack Tempus Fugit with Haste, to produce 12x speed.

  If that gets your jaw dropping in ridicule or disbelief, it gets worse.

  One could cast Melee Manager over and above that to increase one's attacks to anywhere from 24x to 36x.
  One could cast Magic Manager to do the same thing.
  The spell Mantle enabled one to throw an extra spell each round (or 6 such spells if under a Tempus Fugit.)
  The spells Box of Spells and the Simbul's various spells made the situation even worse.

  Nevermind the Lasse Faire WOTC chatsite.
  I had a DM once who allowed the following, all of them stacking:

  Gloves of Haste ( x2 )
  Armbands of Haste ( x2 )
  Weapons of Haste ( x2 )
  The Haste spell ( x2 )
  Tempus Fugit ( x6 )

  That was in addition to normal attacks.

  So, a fully hasted cavalier, with his 1st edition attacks of 5/2, now had 240 attacks per round.
  If he attacked with a weapon in both hands, his attacks jumped to 10/2 (we used double attacks for both hands), so his attacks jumped to 480 per round.
  A fully hasted mage could throw 96 spells in a single round.

  Was this a youthful DM?
  Yes.  He was only 16.
  However, some of his players were 40 or older.

  A most interesting situation.  It got even more interesting when someone had their Tempus Fugit effect made Permanent, and able to turn it on or off at will.

  However, in that game we were fighting monsters that could do the same thing.
  In that game, we were fighting monsters able to throw spells in a graduated power system of up to 20th level.
  In that game, we had to fight beings with thousands of hit points.

  Likewise, in the old TSR (later WOTC) chatsite, a Lasse Faire situation existed.
  This should be known by anyone who has not visited the site.

  For example, we had Redeemers.
  Religious fanatics of a decidedly evil bent, they were out to slay all mages and reduce to second-class status all non-humans.
  All Redeemers were utterly and totally immune to all magic except for their own.
  All Redeemers could fire magical Bolts of Redemption (a kind of Divine Magic) at foes, typically for 20d6 points of damage.

  Then we had the Viles.
  The Viles were effectively not killable.
  If a Vile was killed, he or she was restored by the power of Shadowgrid Temple, and only the destruction of that Unholy Place in the Abyss could end the Vile threat.
  The Viles could kill with a touch, could steal and turn the souls of their foes, and could generally break through most barriers.

  In a Lasse Faire situation like that, I was not compelled to lessen the strength of any of my characters therein, and could use the game-breaking spells normally (except for the campaign mentioned above, it was rare that Tempus Fugit came into play.  It ... was ... a game-breaker, and simply put very difficult to adjudicate, and harder yet to justify.)

  So yeah, you encountered the full strength Edena, complete with the game-breaking spells.

  - - -

  However, that was there, and this is here.
  Here being, that this is official 3rd edition.

  Now, in 3rd edition, you can actually do far worse than any mere 12 spells per round.

  I have calculated that if a mage took the Epic Feat Multispell for every available feat possible, and then advanced to 100th level doing this, he or she would be able to cast approximately 44 spells per round (43 quickened spells plus one normal.)

  These are spells the mage can innately cast, not a quickened spell ability from an actual spell.  Throw actual spells to enhance the mage, and it gets really bad.
  Add that Two-Minded spell from Necromancer Games to the mix, and you get a ghastly 88 spells per round (since, in this case, the two effects do stack.)

  All this, mind you, in a 6 second round.  In 2nd edition terms, that would be 880 spells per round.

  If this sounds implausible, remember that in the Epic Level Book they state openly that it is perfectly fine for PCs to be gods, and then for them to continue as PCs (and they thought the Chosen were powerful.  Bah.  Who needs mortality? ...)

  There is no limit now.
  Any level of power is acceptable.

  They bandy about levels of power in the Epic Level Rulebook that are so incredible, compared to the 1st and 2nd edition game, that the highest stat I ever saw in a lifetime of gaming - 32 - is a mundane minor thing now, compared to the 60 achievable for the Epic Character.
  This is the norm, the standard, in the ELH.

  Edena's 12 Meteor Swarms in a 60 second round wouldn't last 6 seconds against an Epic Level Character (who could well dodge all of them, or simply resist all of them, or have so many hit points they laughed at the damage.)
  Edena's 3 Wishes are laughable compared to Epic Spells.  There is no Wish ever devised that could duplicate the effects I'm seeing in some of those spells (nothing quite like summoning winter and carrying it around with you.)
  Gift of Life is neat, but now you can throw Contingent Resurrection on someone.  No need for a cleric - you just throw that spell, and they have an indefinite Life Insurance policy.

  Edena could never achieve Epic Level Feats.
  He simply could not do it.
  He could ... not ... achieve Epic Wisdom, Epic Strength, Epic Endurance, Multispell, and all those others.
  He could ... not ... walk on water, balance on clouds, break down adamantine doors, detect magic with his senses, swim or run forever, or any such thing.

  And Edena could ... not ... throw Epic Spells.
  Edena DID learn how to throw 10th level spells of the Arcane Age - with great difficulty, and by paying a high price for each casting.

  But the stunts Edena pulled, such as throwing 12 meteor swarms in one round ... that was the result of Tempus Fugit, Magic Manager, and other such spells, none of which exist in 3rd edition, and none of which were ever allowed by most of my 2nd edition DMs.

  Thus, I cannot count that towards any Epic abilities of the character for 3rd edition.
  If Edena had had the innate ability to throw 12 spells a round, then yes, that would have been Epic.
  The truth is, Edena innately could only cast 1 spell per round, just like any 2nd edition character.

  I most certainly cannot use the standard of the TSR/WOTC chatsite for a character conversion!
  Many of the characters in the place would be Epic Level, and many would translate into deities in 3rd edition.
  It was not a standard game, as it were, and the Lasse Faire system prevalent there would not translate well.

  So, I must translate the standard Edena (as he exists in story, and as his power level is in regular games) and not the chatsite Edena.

  Don't worry, though ... 

  When Edena is translated, I will play him, and if he survives he'll gain those Epic Levels.
  And then he will be able to do far worse things than any of the stunts he pulled at the chatsite, and all of it by the official rules.
  You wait and see!

  Right now, I continue to lean (but I have not decided yet) towards making Edena a cleric 20th / mage 1st, making him a 21st level character.
  That puts him on a roughly equal footing with the Realms and Greyhawk NPCs of his age (440.)
  Whether he went up as a straight cleric, or took a Prestige Class, is still a big question.
  What Feats he took is a big question.
  And the Skills system ... that will require a lot of translation.

  As for spells ... he will have a truly enormous repetoire of Arcane spells.
  However, that was something earned in an actual game.
  Big risks can entail big rewards ...

  A final thing.

  If Edena annoyed the PCs at the chatsite, I am not surprised.
  Know that the PCs at the chatsite often annoyed Edena just as badly.


----------



## drowdude (Jul 14, 2002)

By all thats holy... I cannot believe that I actually just read that mind-numbing drivel.


----------



## WizarDru (Jul 14, 2002)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> I have calculated that if a mage took the Epic Feat Multispell for every available feat possible, *and then advanced to 100th level doing this** , he or she would be able to cast approximately 44 spells per round (43 quickened spells plus one normal.)
> *



*

Emphasis Mine

Hee, this is great.  Your play style is your own choice, of course, but claiming the 3E's epic game is somehow broken because if a character makes 100th level, and thereby he could cast an ungodly number of spells, then I think you missed a few things.


As for the Holy Devastator, it's a +3 holy longsword, but a  +7 longsword of holy power in the hands of a paladin.  Additionally, it grants a +5 sacred bonus on saves versus spells from evil characters.  Finally, if a paladin smites using the Devastator, it allows adding twice your paladin level to damage (as opposed to your paladin level).  Market Price is 4,620,315.*


----------



## James McMurray (Jul 14, 2002)

Also, would you have that many spell slots available to fill with quickened spells? If you never took greater capacity (or whatever its called.)

Speaking of which, did Automatic Quicken Spell make it through playtest unchanged? The version I've seen allowed you to take it multiple time and have it apply to higher level spells, until finally you could cast 9th level spells quickened for no slot increase.


----------



## Numion (Jul 14, 2002)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> *
> I have calculated that if a mage took the Epic Feat Multispell for every available feat possible, and then advanced to 100th level doing this, he or she would be able to cast approximately 44 spells per round (43 quickened spells plus one normal.)
> *




Yes, that would be the case. But if he spent all his feats on multispell, are his spell save DCs up to CR 100 creatures? Likely not. As always, such focused power comes with a price. (Yes, I know, INT goes up 1 per 4 levels, but is that enough to pump up the DCs?)


----------



## Psion (Jul 14, 2002)

[deletia]


----------



## Tokiwong (Jul 14, 2002)

Just wanted to say I got the book and I beleive there are feats that allow you to cast more then one quickened spell per round, Epic Feats at least...


----------



## kreynolds (Jul 14, 2002)

Psion said:
			
		

> *Are you forgetting the limit of one quickened spell per round? *




There's an Epic feat that's available that grants you one additional quickened spell per round every time you take it, but without it, you're absolutely right, you would still be limited to one. Ironically, however, Multispell is the feat that does it. So, Edena was correct.


----------



## Psion (Jul 14, 2002)

How dare you quote me before I can cover up the evidence that I was incorrect?


----------



## kreynolds (Jul 14, 2002)

Psion said:
			
		

> *How dare you quote me before I can cover up the evidence that I was incorrect?  *




Why cover it up? Humility is a good thing.


----------



## kreynolds (Jul 14, 2002)

James McMurray said:
			
		

> *Speaking of which, did Automatic Quicken Spell make it through playtest unchanged? *




Yes.

First time taken: 0 - 3rd are quickened with no level adjustment.
Second time taken: 4th - 6th are quickened with no level adjustment.
Third time taken: 7th - 9th are quickened with no level adjustment.
Fourth time taken: 10th - 12th are quickened with no level adjustment.
Etc, etc, etc.


----------



## Moon_Goddess (Jul 14, 2002)

kreynolds said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Oh. So you must have playtested the epic level rules from 21st level to 40th level then? Perhaps even as high as 60th level? If you did playtest it, why didn't you fix it? If you didn't playtest from 21st level to 40th level, then where do you draw your judgement from?
> 
> ...





Now I doubt anyone with a sword that big needs me to defend him, but I felt it was pretty wildly known around here that Regdar is a playtest.      He's made comments about the ELH for months now.   (Even long before it leaked to the web.)

He's made his opinion rather well known I thought, and as for "fixing it"   You seem to believe playtesters have more power to influnce than they do, in the end all they can do is suggest and if the author doesn't listen, he doesn't listen.


Wander around back messages about the ELH, Regdar has comment all the way through that all the previews, (And now the finished product.) differ little from the first playtest he was sent.     The only obvious assumtion is that the suggestions him and other playtesters were sending in were outright ignored.


----------



## Other Guy (Jul 14, 2002)

kreynolds said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Yes.
> 
> ...



Wow, that looks like a very nice feat. I'm assuming that the automatic still and automatic silent feats are basically the same, since that would be logical.

I have one question though, do these automatic quicken/still/silent feats increase the casting time for a sorcerer (or bard, etc.)? I would assume they don't, but since people actually have the book now I don't really need to make assumptions anymore, do I?


----------



## James McMurray (Jul 15, 2002)

Just got my copy today before the game and haven't perused it much, but no, the automatic feats don't increase casting time. Of course, you have to have quicken to get automatic quicken, which means you get yourself a useless feat for your sorcerer for at least a level or two.


----------



## Regdar (Jul 15, 2002)

Numion said:
			
		

> *
> 
> From his butthole, of course. This is the internet, what did you expect?   *




Get bent



> Oh. So you must have playtested the epic level rules from 21st level to 40th level then? Perhaps even as high as 60th level? If you did playtest it, why didn't you fix it? If you didn't playtest from 21st level to 40th level, then where do you draw your judgement from?
> 
> Seriously though, what made you come to your conclusion that there is no steady power curve? Do you mean there isn't a steady power curve among any given class? Monster? Or is there no steady power curve in relation to all of the classes and monsters?




Yep, those levels or equivilant were tested.  You know why they didn't change, the testers got ignored after round two.  Regdar isn't the only tester to say, pretty much most of us felt that way.

Play how you wish, but don't try to say the book isn't something that it's not as a justification for the absurdity of jump that happens, which many who have salivated over the book so they can bring out their characters who beat up on Thor regularly. There are epic leaps and bounds in so many areas, and others, you have to pull an Edena of Neith, who seemed to have cheated his way to 113th or whatever, to accomplish anything.  Regdar wanted this book to work, for Regdar and many others it does not.


----------



## WizarDru (Jul 15, 2002)

DarwinofMind said:
			
		

> *Now I doubt anyone with a sword that big needs me to defend him, but I felt it was pretty wildly known around here that Regdar is a playtest.      He's made comments about the ELH for months now.   (Even long before it leaked to the web.)*




Well, as someone who hasn't made disparaging comments about Regdar, I can say that I was comletely unaware that he was a playtester.  Nor do I hold him responsible for the final product.  Or any other playtester for that matter.  That falls squarely on the shoulders of the editor and the author(s).

Such credit works both ways, however.  They may not have been ignored, so much as overruled or just disagreed with.  Having only worked on playtests for SJG, I couldn't comment either way.


----------



## Buddha the DM (Jul 15, 2002)

Seeing as how Redgar is in here I thought that I'd ask this.

Now that the ELH is out does anyone think that Wizards should do a web enhancement with epic level versions of the PHB & PsiHB Iconics?


----------



## William Ronald (Jul 15, 2002)

Epic Level versions of the iconics would be nice.  (I will likely pick up the ELH later this week.)

I do agree that there were some valid points on the multiple quickened spell issues raised.  Obviously there are going to be limits in each campaign.  I already have a few homebrew rules, so again, it is up to a DM to say what works.

The key question should be does everyone agree to a common set of rules in a campaign and are they having fun.  I suspect the style of Epic Level campaigns will range from those resembling myth, legend, and fiction to those resembling Japanese anime.

If a person wants to run a game like some of the TSR chatsite, let them do so. If I want to have some limits on how much a person can do in one round, that is fine as well.

Can we also have a little less recrimination around here.  The last time I checked we were discussing gaming, not the big political issues of the day.


----------



## Edena_of_Neith (Jul 15, 2002)

*Concerning Edena, and concerning the ELH*

Heh.  LOL.

  I was fine with all the responses until Regdar started with that Edena cheated stuff.

  If Edena is a cheating character, then God help us with the Epic Level Rulebook.

  Edena, with all his levels, could not hope to face an Epic Level character and survive.

  An Epic Level character could throw spells that would blast through magic resistance (2nd edition term for spell resistance), and blast through saving throws.
  An Epic Level character could simply make himself immune to Edena's best spells.
  An Epic Level character could throw up defensive spells that no spell, including Miracle, could penetrate.
  An Epic Level character could have an Armor Class of - 90 (in 2nd edition terms), beyond any hope of being struck in combat by Edena.
  An Epic Level character could wipe Edena out in a single round of attacks.

  - - -

  For the record, I think the Epic Level Handbook is GREAT, and I'll say so now.
  It is great because it is a great book.
  It is great because it expands the game.
  It is great because it expands player and DM options.
  It is great because it puts players in the driver's seat.
  And it is great because, after this book, there will be no more munchkins - the term munchkin has been made obsolete.  Sneering players will never truly be able to brandish that word again against their fellows.


----------



## William Ronald (Jul 15, 2002)

I think there is a difference between the chatsite games and table top games.  The key thing is if everyone agreed to a set of rules at a game, then it is only a question if everyone abided to a set of rules and had fun.

The fact that you distinguish between the chatsite version of your character and the tabletop one (who will likely be a mere 21st level) seems to show that  you have a sense of proportion.

There are big changes between editions. Heck, a 3rd Edition character of 15th level could probably kill anything in the 1st Edition monster manual as he is moving much faster than his counter parts.  (Also, an 88 hit point ancient red dragon looks very week compared to what exists in 3E.)

To me, the issue of gaming is simply this: Are people having fun in their interpreptation of the rules.  

The most powerful character I have created and run is epic level (after having him around since the mid 1980s) and would be in the same power category as the stated NPCs I have seen on this thread.

In the end, I think we have to remember that the rulebooks are guidelines.  It is up to us to determine how we use them.  Remember, you can always rule 0 even the Epic Level Handbook.  For example, many DMs may decide there is an upward limit to how much one person can do in a round.

Can we stop some of the recriminations around here?  We can disagree without being disagreeable.


----------



## V-2 (Jul 15, 2002)

> Epic Level versions of the iconics would be nice.




Now there's a thought. 

If Regdar went Epic, he'd kick the living daylight outa Edena.


----------



## Johno (Jul 15, 2002)

So Regdar,

What would you have changed made different? Share your thoughts and Wisdom here.


----------



## Edena_of_Neith (Jul 15, 2002)

Heh.

  Redgar would kick Edena's butt, for sure!  

  Edena isn't an Epic Level character ... well, at least, I don't think he is.
  Edena may be a cleric/mage 120/40 in 2nd edition, but I really do not think he is an Epic Level character in 3rd edition.  
  Edena IS on the verge of being Epic Level, however.

  - - -

  By the way, I should have added:

  A wizard of 100th level could put all his Feats into Multispell, but ...

  In my opinion, that would be, let us say ... suicidal?  How about insane?

  If he thought in such ways, he wouldn't get to 100th level in the first place.
  So it was only a theoretical postulation.

  - - -

  Hey there, William!  Nice to see you again!  

  The old 1st edition dragons wouldn't last one round against 3rd edition dragons, as you said.
  Not when they have 30 to 90 hit points, and breath weapons to match, and 3rd edition dragons have ten times the hit points (or more), and at least 5 times the damage (not to mention THAC0s as low as the 1st edition equivalent of - 90.)

  And yeah, I think the Epic Level Handbook is neat.
  Primarily because it expands the game, and what can be done in the game - the scope of the D&D game covers a greater area of the imagination now.
  And yes, because it eliminates the word munchkin from the repetoire.  
  It's hard to call any character munchkin when WOTC sanctions PC gods and goddesses as being perfectly acceptable.


----------



## Darkness (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: Concerning Edena, and concerning the ELH*



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> *...
> For the record, I think the Epic Level Handbook is GREAT, and I'll say so now.
> ... it is great because, after this book, there will be no more munchkins - the term munchkin has been made obsolete.  Sneering players will never truly be able to brandish that word again against their fellows. *



Oh, they _will_, trust me on that:

1) Most people using the M-word use it _instead of_ backing up their opinion. And I don't think that the ELH will make people more reasonable. (Even the opposite in some cases, come to think of it: I'm pretty sure that sooner rather than later, there will be a lot of people who will call _everything_ related to the ELH "munchkin."  )

2) A 30th-level character (if playing in a campaign that's appropriate for his power level) who has, say, a _+7 longsword_ and a Strength of 40 might _not_ be a munchkin.
But a 5th-level character with the same sword and Str score _just might_ be a munchkin...


----------



## Edena_of_Neith (Jul 15, 2002)

Well put, Darkness!


----------



## KDLadage (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: Concerning Edena, and concerning the ELH*



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> I was fine with all the responses until Regdar started with that Edena cheated stuff.



If you advanced Edena the way you described -- meaning that if you played him in his 4th level days, advanced to 5th, and thus added a level onto the upper end of the character, then I would have to agree that this would be "cheating" in my book. Going from 4th to 5th is _not_ the same thing as going from 40th to 41st.

There was an old article in Dragon that compared the old 1st edition classes against one another to see how they stacked up. The classes were remarkably balanced in the end (single-class wise) but they realized that you have to compare XP to XP, not level to level.



> If Edena is a cheating character, then God help us with the Epic Level Rulebook.



I do not understand this statement. The matter of the effectiveness/munchkiness/power levels of the ELH have absolutely nothing to do with the idea of whether Edena is/isn't a character created by a process that one might/might not call cheating. These are two wholly unrelated issues.

For example: _If I were any olympic athlete and I have chosen to use an illegal drug, I am cheating and stand a chance of being disqualified. It really does not matter if the drug was some sort of performance enhancing drug, or was recreational with the potential to be performance degrading, now does it?_



> Edena, with all his levels, could not hope to face an Epic Level character and survive.



Not the point.



> An Epic Level character could throw spells that would blast through magic resistance (2nd edition term for spell resistance), and blast through saving throws.



Irrelevant.



> An Epic Level character could simply make himself immune to Edena's best spells.



So?



> An Epic Level character could throw up defensive spells that no spell, including Miracle, could penetrate.



Good for them, then.



> An Epic Level character could have an Armor Class of - 90 (in 2nd edition terms), beyond any hope of being struck in combat by Edena.



OK. And your point?



> An Epic Level character could wipe Edena out in a single round of attacks.



And...?

Please -- I realize that this seems harsh, inflamitory and possibly even arrogant on my part. It is not intended to be. I am simply trying to state that you are arguing that because of =A=, then =B= must be true when =A= and =B= are not related in any way what-so-ever.

If the ELH is terrible, poor, mediocre, fair, good, great, superb or legendary in its handling of high level campaigns has no impact what-so-ever on the facts as they are presented dealing with the character Edena.

Allow me to show you the most extreme example of what I am talking about. Assume the 1st edition D&D rules. I am playing a Thief. I need 1500 XP to advance to 2nd level. Now, to make it to 160th level would require (and I am estimating here, I have not looked at those advancement charts in a long, long time) over 12,000,000 XP. *Twelve Million* Experience Points. (Three-hundred million in second edition).

Now, if I advance from 1st to 2nd, then from 2nd to 3rd, then keep playing 2nd level versions of this thief, advancing him to 3rd each time... and adding this level up to the upper end form some games... I could theoretically advance to 160th level with a mere 240000 XP or so. *Two-hundred forty thousand* Experience Points.

This represents a compression factor of approximately 50!! In second edition the compression factor is *1250!!* or about 2% (or about 0.08% in second edition) of the XP needed, you have advanced to an ungodly level. Yes -- I would call this cheating. And no, this has no bearing what-so-ever on the viability of the ELH.

(edit: corrected numbers based upon information provided below)


----------



## kreynolds (Jul 15, 2002)

DarwinofMind said:
			
		

> *Now I doubt anyone with a sword that big needs me to defend him, but I felt it was pretty wildly known around here that Regdar is a playtest. *




Never heard of him.



			
				DarwinofMind said:
			
		

> *He's made comments about the ELH for months now. *




Any of them useful? I haven't seen them.



			
				DarwinofMind said:
			
		

> *He's made his opinion rather well known I thought *




Not really. As far as I can tell, he complains about it but then doesn't explain why. That's why I asked him.



			
				DarwinofMind said:
			
		

> *and as for "fixing it"   You seem to believe playtesters have more power to influnce than they do *




Nope. I'm aware of the limits of a playtester.



			
				DarwinofMind said:
			
		

> *Wander around back messages about the ELH, Regdar has comment all the way through that all the previews, (And now the finished product.) differ little from the first playtest he was sent. *




I'll go take a look.


----------



## kreynolds (Jul 15, 2002)

Regdar said:
			
		

> *Yep, those levels or equivilant were tested. *




I never said they weren't. I asked if *you* tested them.



			
				Regdar said:
			
		

> *You know why they didn't change, the testers got ignored after round two. *




That stinks. I bet that was frustrating.



			
				Regdar said:
			
		

> *Regdar isn't the only tester to say, pretty much most of us felt that way. *




I want you to know that I have a very difficult time taking anyone seriously at all when they sound just like a Hollywood wrestler that always refers to themselves in the third person.



			
				Regdar said:
			
		

> *Play how you wish, but don't try to say the book isn't something that it's not as a justification for the absurdity of jump that happens, which many who have salivated over the book so they can bring out their characters who beat up on Thor regularly. *




If players are running around killing gods, who's fault is that? Can you sanely lay that blame upon the book? That's like getting pissed at the hammer when you dropped it on your own foot. No. You have only one person to blame for that. The DM running the game.



			
				Regdar said:
			
		

> *There are epic leaps and bounds in so many areas *




That's just it though. I don't see the problem with the leaps in power. Where is the problem? Where is it unbalanced? Are the classes more powerful than the monsters? The other way around? What?



			
				Regdar said:
			
		

> *Regdar wanted this book to work, for Regdar and many others it does not. *




Damn. You almost got me to put more weight to your words because you might have been a playtester, but then there was that damn third person wrestler thing again.


----------



## Buddha the DM (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: Re: Concerning Edena, and concerning the ELH*



			
				KDLadage said:
			
		

> *Now, if I advance from 1st to 2nd, then from 2nd to 3rd, then keep playing 2nd level versions of this thief, advancing him to 3rd each time... and adding this level up to the upper end form some games... I could theoretically advance to 160th level with a mere 240000 XP or so. Two-hundred forty thousand Experience Points.*




For Lv 160 you need 12,720,000 xp.

I'm just saying that in case someone wants to know what the value actually is. I don't want to argue with any one.


----------



## Psion (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: Concerning Edena, and concerning the ELH*



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> *And it is great because, after this book, there will be no more munchkins - the term munchkin has been made obsolete.  Sneering players will never truly be able to brandish that word again against their fellows. *




You're smoking something.

Not saying these people are right, but ELH has already acquired the name the "book of twink" over on nutkinland. There are people who will call you a munchkin if you use the book at all.

But then, there are people who will call you a munchkin if...
- you use classes like Archmage or Spellfire wielder
- you use classes like Alienist, Summoner, or Elemental Savant.
- you use classes like Weapon Master
- you play 3rd edition
- you play any version of D&D

Munchkin is one of those terms that is so subjective that trying to actually use it for communication is near meaningless.

To me, Munchkin is simply a player (or character) who strives for power and capabilities to prevail in a survival situation to the exclusion of character concept, beleivability, or logic. Simply using ELH is not going to earn the moniker munchkin from me. But it certainly has the potential to be used in such an abusive fashion.

So, in short, I know that you (or anyone older than 16 who continues to brandish 120+ level characters) are probably defensive about the term munchkin. But if you think the ELH is going to change anything, I think you are fooling yourself.


----------



## HeavyG (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Concerning Edena, and concerning the ELH*



			
				Buddha the DM said:
			
		

> *
> 
> For Lv 160 you need 12,720,000 xp.
> 
> I'm just saying that in case someone wants to know what the value actually is. I don't want to argue with any one. *




Actually, a 2nd edition thief would require 300 million xps or so to get to 160th level.


----------



## KDLadage (Jul 15, 2002)

I have edited my above post to reflect these numbers. It has been a long time since I played 1st edition, and I never really got into 2nd edition.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Jul 15, 2002)

Hello all! 



			
				Regdar said:
			
		

> *There are epic leaps and bounds in so many areas, and others, you have to pull an Edena of Neith, who seemed to have cheated his way to 113th or whatever, to accomplish anything. *




Speaking as someone who roleplayed a character from 3rd-level to 117th, fairly - though requiring many years to do so. I think I must be one of the few here qualified to say that it can be done (Edena probably the only other in this thread?).

One thing that should be addressed is that Epic Levelling (3rd Ed.) is much slower than previous editions. Simply because the XP tables for previous editions 'bottomed off' at about 10th-level.

So the XP needed for 10th to 11th was the same as the XP needed for 30th to 31st but obviously the encounters had to be more challenging to facilitate higher levels of play - _vis a vis_ more XP and by extension quicker levelling. In short, the higher you ascended the faster levelling became.

With the advent of Challenge Ratings in 3rd Ed. this is no longer the case.

I presume the ELH has no conversion method for previous editions? So we are left with the brief Conversion Manual that was available at the introduction of 3rd Ed.

However, a 100th-level character in 3rd Ed. is much more powerful than such a character in previous editions. So it is probably a wise move to reduce even single class characters in the process.

To which I proffer:

Character Class (type)

Experience tables from previous incarnations were not equal. To compensate for these facts multiply the levels as follows.

Clerics		Levels above 9th: x0.6	
Druids		Levels above 13th: (14th) x2; (15th) x4
		Levels above 16th: x1.33
Fighters		Levels above 9th: x0.66
Paladins/Rangers	Levels above 9th: x0.8
Rogues/Bards	Levels above 11th: x0.58
Wizards		Levels same 

eg. (former) 25th-level Cleric
16 levels above 9th x0.6 = 9.6 (round down, although that would mean the character has 60% XP in their current level already).
9 + 9 = (now) 18th-level Cleric

eg. (former) 30th-level Paladin
21 levels above 9th x0.8 = 16.8
9 + 16 = (now) 25th-level Paladin

eg. (former) 19th-level Druid
6 levels above 13th. Level 14 = +2, Level 15 = +4, remaining Levels  4 (16-19) x1.33 = 5.32 
13 + 2 + 4 + 5.32 = (now) 24th-level Druid

Number of Different Classes

First Class		Levels same
Second Class		Levels x0.8
Third Class		Levels x0.6
Fourth Class		Levels x0.4
Fifth Class		Levels x0.2

eg. (former) 62nd-level Cavalier/28th-level Cleric/27th-level Wizard
First Class
53 Cavalier Levels above 9th x 0.8 = 42.4
9 + 42 = 51st-level Cavalier
Second Class
19 Cleric Levels above 9th x 0.6 = 11.4
9 + 11 = 20 (second class) x 0.8 = 16th-level Cleric
Third Class
27 Wizard Levels remain same
27 (third class) x 0.6 = 16th-level Wizard
Total: 83 levels

The total class levels can then be distributed amongst the classes at the players discretion.


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## Upper_Krust (Jul 15, 2002)

V-2 said:
			
		

> *If Regdar went Epic, he'd kick the living daylight outa Edena. *






			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> *Redgar would kick Edena's butt, for sure! *




Wouldn't this depend on the relative power attributed to both characters!?



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> *Edena isn't an Epic Level character ... well, at least, I don't think he is.*




If hes above 20th-level then hes Epic Level! Simple as that! 

Simply depends on how you plan to convert the character? If indeed you do plan to convert him!?



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> *Edena may be a cleric/mage 120/40 in 2nd edition, but I really do not think he is an Epic Level character in 3rd edition.
> 
> Edena IS on the verge of being Epic Level, however.*




Having read Edena's adventures and exploits - if that character isn't epic level then no one is!


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## Schmoe (Jul 15, 2002)

Schmoe would be very interested to hear any specific comments Regdar has about the ELH, including criticisms and analyses.


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## ColonelHardisson (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: Re: Concerning Edena, and concerning the ELH*



			
				Psion said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> But then, there are people who will call you a munchkin if...
> ...




Yeah, and it's gotten to the point that you could almost add another one:

- you play the game differently from them

It's just geeks calling geeks geeks.


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## KDLadage (Jul 15, 2002)

> Speaking as someone who roleplayed a character from 3rd-level to 117th, fairly - though requiring many years to do so. I think I must be one of the few here qualified to say that it can be done (Edena probably the only other in this thread?).



That is possible. The highest level characters I ever played (and honestly rose through the XP ranks from first up) were:
*Nicorin 'Silent' James* -- Thief 53/Illusionist 19
*Wanda Alvinale James* -- Magic-User 36/Cleric 22
*Strinidire of Elfwood* -- Ranger 31

*Side notes*: _I ran all three of these characters simultaniously in the same campaign. Silent James and Wanda were married early in thier careers; Strinidire was the Best Man at that wedding. When it came time to retire the characters, we did it in style.

James eventually became "King" over a small nation. He managed to piss off a Diety or two and was cursed to walk the lands after with his alignment randomly changing each full moon (+/- 3 days; at the DMs whim). He was on a bit of a Chaotic-Evil bender when Strinidire (the lcoal lord) attempted to subdue him. James ended up killing him, and immediately shifted to Lawful Good. Seeing that he had just slain his best friend, he killed himself.

Wanda was driven mad by the loss of her husband, and was eventually brought down by the Mages Guilds of six seperate nations.

It was a fun end to a long career._


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## Upper_Krust (Jul 15, 2002)

Hi KDLadage mate! 



			
				KDLadage said:
			
		

> *That is possible. The highest level characters I ever played (and honestly rose through the XP ranks from first up) were:
> Nicorin 'Silent' James -- Thief 53/Illusionist 19
> Wanda Alvinale James -- Magic-User 36/Cleric 22
> Strinidire of Elfwood -- Ranger 31
> .[/i] *




I knew there would be others, I just wasn't aware they were in this particular thread.


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## Buddha the DM (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Concerning Edena, and concerning the ELH*



			
				HeavyG said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Actually, a 2nd edition thief would require 300 million xps or so to get to 160th level. *




The 12,720,000 xp that I quoted for 160th Level is for 3rd Ed not 2nd.


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## drowdude (Jul 15, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Speaking as someone who roleplayed a character from 3rd-level to 117th, fairly - though requiring many years to do so. I think I must be one of the few here qualified to say that it can be done (Edena probably the only other in this thread?).*




Now... I have played a character to advanced levels as well...

Garic Everhate, my second character. I played him from 1st level to 53rd level (total) over the course of a decade. 

Did I earn every single XP, not exactly... at some points I trained with significantly more powerful characters to earn a level or 2, or on 2 occasions we skipped over a certain span of time and advanced him a bit to represent the things he had done during that time "off-stage".


We all know that Edena outright cheated his way to such levels. So it just begs the question, "How fairly?"


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## Upper_Krust (Jul 15, 2002)

Hi drowdude! 



			
				drowdude said:
			
		

> *We all know that Edena outright cheated his way to such levels. So it just begs the question, "How fairly?" *




Has Edena said he cheated!? If not, I would give him the benefit of the doubt! Innocent until proven guilty after all!

I know I didn't cheat, and I made it over 100th-level. I also explained that the higher you ascend the faster levelling becomes. I also know that Edena has been gaming longer than me (if not perhaps a greater time spent gaming*).

*We played five days a week for the first 4-5 years, with a number of marathon sessions during holidays!


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## William Ronald (Jul 16, 2002)

To me, the term munchkin implies power that is not earned.  I have seen characters who did not earn their power who were only 10th level (with weapons which were weaker versions of stuff from 1st Edition Deities and Demigods) to people who had weapons out of the cartoon show Thundarr the Barbarian  (and took the sunsword directly from the sun.)  It was not the power that offended me, but the fact that it seemed to be just given away.


I fear that Darkness is correct that the word munchkin will be used repeatedly. To me, the key thing about gaming is the issue of fun. 

Personally, I prefer to have power to be hard won, much like myth, legend, and good literature.  However, I think it is kind of silly for people to set themselves up as an authority on gaming.

Indeed, gamers attacking other gamers seems pretty silly to me.  
We tend to be viewed poorly by the mass media, and have ridiculous stereotypes foisted on us in entertainment.  

Getting back to the issue of epic level characters, I think a DM has to chose the feel of an epic level campaign.  If you want heroic fantasy with a mythic feel you will probably use the rules differently than someone recreating an anime setting.  

Also, remember a DM can always say NO.

Upper Krust, I believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt.  If I want something for myself, I would be hypocritical in not giving it to others.


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## drowdude (Jul 16, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> * Hi drowdude! *




Yo!



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Has Edena said he cheated!? If not, I would give him the benefit of the doubt! Innocent until proven guilty after all!*




Did you read all the posts? I am sure you can draw the proper conclusion for yourself (read that "Yes! He freaking cheated").



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *I know I didn't cheat, and I made it over 100th-level. I also explained that the higher you ascend the faster levelling becomes. I also know that Edena has been gaming longer than me (if not perhaps a greater time spent gaming*).
> 
> *We played five days a week for the first 4-5 years, with a number of marathon sessions during holidays! *




Thats kewl. Sounds like it was alot of fun then.


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## S'mon (Jul 16, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Hello all!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Hi Craig - I have to say that as a GM, I'd regard Edena's approach to levelling (playing eg a 2nd level PC to 3rd level and adding a level to the 21st level version, a massive XP-multiplyer) as archetypal 'munchkinism' - rules-breaking to get unearned power.  By contrast Thrin's levels were earned in actual deity-level play, against deity-level foes.  In my book there's a big difference.


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## S'mon (Jul 16, 2002)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> *To me, the term munchkin implies power that is not earned.  I have seen characters who did not earn their power who were only 10th level (with weapons which were weaker versions of stuff from 1st Edition Deities and Demigods) to people who had weapons out of the cartoon show Thundarr the Barbarian  (and took the sunsword directly from the sun.)  It was not the power that offended me, but the fact that it seemed to be just given away.
> *




I agree with this - munchkinism is not about power, but unearned power - EGG's discussion of Monty Haul campaigns in the 1e DMG gives a good analysis.  U_K/Craig has slight munchkin tendencies I guess (at this time I can't recall very well, but I seem to remember that a few of Thrin's levels might have been gained in 'solo' play when I was burnt-out - U-K can confirm/deny) - but as a DM I've never had any trouble terrorising him with foes more powrful than Thrin - Hel, Wotan, Doomstar (not actually a foe), Arasaka ACPA troopers, etc.   I'm generally considered a tough GM, even a killer GM by some.  And certainly 90%+ of Thrin's levels were earned in games I GM'd.


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## Numion (Jul 16, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *
> Has Edena said he cheated!? If not, I would give him the benefit of the doubt! Innocent until proven guilty after all!
> *




But he admitted it! He said he advanced his character repeatedly through the low levels, but added the new levels to his (high) total. Is that by the rules? 

Then it's cheating.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Jul 16, 2002)

I love how this thread became a Flame War. (sighs) 

  (Yes, I call being accused of being a cheater four times a Flame War.)

  Good thing this is post 200, and they'll be closing this thread due to it's size.

  But ... I suppose someone will manage to start it all over on a new thread. (sighs again)  Not me.

  - - -

  Upper Krust, I made that comment (Redgar would kick Edena's butt) as pure, light humor.
  Humor always helps in a game, and I subscribe to the notion that it is a good thing on the ENBoards.

  - - -

  The Book of Twink?  How'd they get that name?
  How did Munchkin turn into Twink?
  That one has my curiosity up.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Jul 16, 2002)

Finally went to Nutkinland for the very first time.
  What do I find?

  The Edena_of_Naith Is A Cheat thread.

  Hmmm ... time to go over to Nutkinland, and let some discourteous people have it.

  - - -

  Thank gods for the ENBoards, though, where relative courtesy is required by the moderators.

  - - -

  Anyways, my final take on the ELH is that it is going to cause a lot of uproar (hasn't it done so already?)
  It is very unconventional in it's assumptions.
  It sanctions things that were never sanctioned before.
  It is a rabble-rouser of a book.  It stirs the pot, causes froth to boil up out into the room.

  It expands the game.
  I hope it makes for a better game.
  I still open they approve the OGL for this book.


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## Johno (Jul 16, 2002)

Numion said:
			
		

> *
> 
> But he admitted it! He said he advanced his character repeatedly through the low levels, but added the new levels to his (high) total. Is that by the rules?
> 
> Then it's cheating. *




Did you participate in those games? Did you see any fudging of die rolls?

If not, why care? 

Did Edena have fun playng the character? Did his fellow gamers enjoy his company at the table?

Those are more relevant questions.

It is just a game, dudes. There are far more important things to get upset about.


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## S'mon (Jul 16, 2002)

Johno said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Did you participate in those games? Did you see any fudging of die rolls?
> 
> ...




It doesn't bother me if Edena is sitting alone in his bedroom adding levels gained in 5th-level play to his 21st level PC until he makes 140th level, but IMO this isn't 'lawfully' earned XP, and I think that's what people mean when they call him a cheat, alkthough 'disingenuous' would be more accurate.  At least Edenea owned up to it, and apparently doesn't regard it as cheating.  While mockery is inevitable at this uber-munchkinism, I hope there's no malice in it.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Jul 16, 2002)

AMAZING how people react when you tell them your character is 160th level.

  If I posted that the newspaper USA Today had just announced the moon WAS made out of green cheese, and that NASA had proven it, I do not think it would garner half the reaction.

  I guess this underscores, with a big exclamation point, just how much of a backlash the Epic Level Handbook is going to get.  (I mean, after all, they openly condone Player Character dieties in there, and if that's not revolutionary (read:  inflammatory) as an Official Stance, then what is?)


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## AvarielAvenger (Jul 16, 2002)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> *AMAZING how people react when you tell them your character is 160th level.
> *




If you really think that's the reason people are reacting negatively to you, you've got serious issues.  Upper_Krust has a 117th level PC, and the times I've seen him bring it up on these boards he has never gotten the reaction you recieved.

And that's because he actually advanced his PC through levels fairly and in an actual long lived campaign.  You, on the other hand, blatantly ignored the rules to advance your character as far as possible.  Most people don't like cheaters.  Deal with it, and stop trying to act like you're being persecuted because your PC is high level.


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## S'mon (Jul 16, 2002)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> *AMAZING how people react when you tell them your character is 160th level.
> 
> If I posted that the newspaper USA Today had just announced the moon WAS made out of green cheese, and that NASA had proven it, I do not think it would garner half the reaction.
> 
> I guess this underscores, with a big exclamation point, just how much of a backlash the Epic Level Handbook is going to get.  (I mean, after all, they openly condone Player Character dieties in there, and if that's not revolutionary (read:  inflammatory) as an Official Stance, then what is?) *




I do wish you wouldn't persist in regarding PC deities as somehow 'more' OTT than 160th level characters.  Eg I have Avalanche Press's Ragnarok! book (not a very good book BTW) which has rules for running Norse gods of around 3rd level!  The sample arch-nemesis character is a deity 5th level Rogue.  Deity play can easily be low-powered by regular D&D norms, though it doesn't have to be.  Edena, I think people are annoyed with you because you seem to claim that you 'earned' those 160 levels, which your explanation makes clear were not earned in the way most people here would regard as legitimate - you 'decided' on a way to level up without actually playing through those levels.  This isn't vastly different from just making up a 160th level character straight off.  Nothing wrong with that - I cfeated Doomstar as a 500th level NPC to terrify Upper_Krust with - but claiming to have earned the levels is what gets you the 'cheater' jibes.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Jul 16, 2002)

Ok, enough.

  Edena is a cleric/mage levels 120th/40th 2nd edition (levels in 3rd edition still unknown.)
  Edena earned it.
  I have explained why and how Edena earned it.

  If I had thought of it as cheating, or that it wasn't properly earned, I most certainly would not have posted Edena's class levels, and how he gained them, on this high visibility worldwide forum.

  There will be no further replies from me, replying to Edena Is Not A Proper Character posts in this thread.
  For there is nothing more, that is productive, to say.

  I will e-mail the people that I think might be able and willing to help me convert Edena from 2nd edition to 3rd edition.

  - - - 

  Besides, this thread has gotten totally off the original topic.


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## drowdude (Jul 16, 2002)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> *Edena is a cleric/mage levels 120th/40th 2nd edition (levels in 3rd edition still unknown.) *




No, his 3rd edition level is not "unknown". There is a simple conversion mechanic. He would be 133rd level. 



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> * Edena earned it.*




No he didnt.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> * I have explained why and how Edena earned it. *




Yes, you described the method you used to cheat very well.



			
				Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> *If I had thought of it as cheating, or that it wasn't properly earned, I most certainly would not have posted Edena's class levels, and how he gained them, on this high visibility worldwide forum.*




I honestly dont see how you could have NOT thought of it as cheating. And, unless you are delusional, you must realize that the levels werent properly earned.


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## AvarielAvenger (Jul 16, 2002)

Drowdude:  

It's better to just drop it.  Clearly, it's just not worth it to continue this discussion.  Edena is clearly a "pet" character.  I've seen this syndrome before.  A player will become so attached to a character they start basically only playing that character.  If that character ever dies they either A) Refuse to accept it, or B) Recreate the character exactly as they were.

If they move on to another campaign, they will even remake the PC exactly as they were in the last campaign, with no variation whatsoever.  Many of these players will advance these "pets" as far as possible through almost any means, as Edenas posts have demonstrated.

Almost nothing will convince a player who has a "pet" like this to play another character, or let the character go, or, in players like Edenas case, even acknowledge the neccessity to follow the rules with regards to the "pet".  

My personal opinion is, if that's what they enjoy doing, let them have their fun.  You don't have to play with them, and they don't have to play with you.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Jul 16, 2002)

This thread is ... definitely ... going down the toilet.
  Let's hope someone flushes the toilet.


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## drowdude (Jul 16, 2002)

AvarielAvenger said:
			
		

> *It's better to just drop it.  Clearly, it's just not worth it to continue this discussion.  *




Truly, I do agree that the subject should be dropped (hopefully never to be brought up again  ). 

I only responded to his last post because I cant stand it when people who are so obviously in the wrong try to get the last word in like that.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Jul 16, 2002)

Last word, eh?

  Heh.  LOL.


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## Upper_Krust (Jul 16, 2002)

Hi Simon! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> *U_K/Craig has slight munchkin tendencies I guess.*




I think you mean slight Power Gamer tendencies.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> *(at this time I can't recall very well, but I seem to remember that a few of Thrin's levels might have been gained in 'solo' play when I was burnt-out - U-K can confirm/deny)*




No, all of Thrins levels were earned in game - none in solo play.

I did run some of the servants through a few modules and although I did it fairly I am sure I don't have the venom you would have brought to bear in those respects! 

But I made a point of never DM'ing Thrin because I would never kill him myself.



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> * but as a DM I've never had any trouble terrorising him with foes more powrful than Thrin - Hel, Wotan, Doomstar (not actually a foe), Arasaka ACPA troopers, etc.   I'm generally considered a tough GM, even a killer GM by some.*




In your games you need a bit of power gamer in you just to survive! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> *And certainly 90%+ of Thrin's levels were earned in games I GM'd. *




Irv DM'ed a few - nothing that contributed more than a few levels - and you know he was never going to give me an easy time so...


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## Zappo (Jul 16, 2002)

S'mon said:
			
		

> *Arasaka ACPA troopers*



In D&D?


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## S'mon (Jul 16, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Hi Simon!
> *
> 
> Hiya!
> ...




Ah, yes.


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## S'mon (Jul 16, 2002)

Zappo said:
			
		

> *In D&D?  *




Yes.  As I recall Thrin gained new respect for 40mm automatic grenade launchers after taking 640 pts blast damage in 1 round - being in Thrinheim on his home plane of Asgard he had ca 798 hp and was able to teleport away before being killed.  Thrin got mixed up in the Cyberpunk world Earth:2020 (where only 1st & 2nd level spells work, -5 Magic Factor as per 1st ed Manual of the Planes, due to a dimensional rift caused by the Sword of Kas.  Thrin and another PC were sent by their patrons to find the Sword on E:2020, resulting in all sorts of shenanigans in 21st century New York.


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## S'mon (Jul 16, 2002)

I said that I fit things to my players - not entirely true I guess, I was getting a lot of TPKs running low-level games in my current tabletop campaign.  Eventually I let the players start with 4th level PCs, using half their XP totals from PCs in another GM's campaign, and running scenarios with ELs 1 or 2 below the 'expected' level - eg running a 3rd-level adventure when the PCs were 5th.  This has done the trick, so far they've found it tough but survivable, and the slower rate of advancement suits me fine.  I did have a problem when I used Krusty's Iron Devil from CC2 on them recently - the fiends at S&S had lowered its CR from Krusty's (correct) 13 to 10, the 8th level PCs barely got out alive (leaving the Devil onlly 10% down on hp).


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## Psion (Jul 16, 2002)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> *Edena is a cleric/mage levels 120th/40th 2nd edition (levels in 3rd edition still unknown.)
> Edena earned it.
> Ihave explained why and how Edena earned it.
> *




Fair enough. But let me say that I for one would have never approved your method of advancing the character; from all appearances, this 160th level character exists strictly in your mind, not in actual play in anyone's game, because you played the character to 21st level, and then only 5th level "avatars" of the character from then on out.

Is it fair to call you a cheater because of this? No, it's a bit churlish. What you do in your game -- or your mind -- is your own business.

But I do consider your self justification to feel like you earned it a little empty and a little pointless. If you are going to circumvent the rules to make your character 160th level, what's the point? As the character doesn't seem to exist in anyone's game, you could just as easily say "my character is 160th level" and leave it at that.


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## Johno (Jul 16, 2002)

Yes but it is a bit silly to assume that you can "earn" the right to talk about having an epic level character.

XP has always been a subjective award system anyway. What one DM awards a character for and how much varies quite a bit.

So what difference does it make?

In my experience, it isn't the character, it isn't the level the character is, it isn't the game system, it is the people you play with, that make or break the session.

Whether Monty Haul, Super-Munchkin, Power Gaming, Deity-Slaying, or Incredible-In-Character-Depth-Role-Playing-Theatrics, it ain't worth cheese if the people you play with ain't good friends.

I intend to have a good time together with my friends when I get hold of ELH. I'm sure I can put agladan's character in a compromising situation regardless of what epic level feats he equips himself with...


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