# New Star Wars RPG!



## Rawhide (Jun 30, 2006)

Anyone who knows me knows I am a fan of Owen Stephens Star Wars work. He has more writing credits for d20 Star Wars than any other author. (I love his other work too, I almost keep the Green Ronin AGMG in a shrine) which is why I search for him at Amazon occasionally.

Today, I found this link:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/07...694892/ref=sr_1_7/002-1676961-0221643?ie=UTF8

Now, we all know Star Wars is dead as a Wizards RPG, so this is most likely a lost product, or a mis-labeled minis release. But if it isn't, having a new rulebook (the "Saga edition") release next year? By Owen and Rodney Thompson (owner of an ENNie award winning Star Wars rpg fan site?)

It would be the birth of a whole new era of Star wars gaming.

I also see Owen and Rodney wrote Dragon Magic together, so my guess is that there is no Saga Edition, and that project was cancelled and Dragon Magic written instead, and Amazon just didn't get the memo. But if not, I'd be in gamer heaven. It would mean WotC can be brought around with enough emails and support of related games, kinda like how Futurama got a new lease on life.

Anybody know if this is realyl going to happen, or if it's another d20 Spectaculars?


----------



## Jack of Shadows (Jun 30, 2006)

Um,

Wasn't SAGA that really bad rules set they used to do the last Marvel Superheroes RPG with (not the one Marvel did themselves but the last TSR/WotC one)?

Jack


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jun 30, 2006)

Jack of Shadows said:
			
		

> Um,
> 
> Wasn't SAGA that really bad rules set they used to do the last Marvel Superheroes RPG with (not the one Marvel did themselves but the last TSR/WotC one)?
> 
> Jack



 I expect Saga would be referring to the Star Wars Saga, and not that defunct game system.

Otherwise, wouldn't make much sense.

Man, I hope this is real.


----------



## Banshee16 (Jun 30, 2006)

Rawhide said:
			
		

> Anyone who knows me knows I am a fan of Owen Stephens Star Wars work. He has more writing credits for d20 Star Wars than any other author. (I love his other work too, I almost keep the Green Ronin AGMG in a shrine) which is why I search for him at Amazon occasionally.
> 
> Today, I found this link:
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/07...694892/ref=sr_1_7/002-1676961-0221643?ie=UTF8
> ...




Is it possible that it's a new hardcover, with accumulated info from the six movies?  Maybe they're going to time this to re-launch D20 Star Wars to coincide (roughly) with the coming TV series?

Did WotC ever say that they lost their license?  Or just that it was on hiatus, or what?

Banshee


----------



## Turanil (Jun 30, 2006)

I believe that it must be the same rules with some small additions, and pics and generic info from all six movies (hence the "saga"). Maybe it's just a kind of setting book.


----------



## HeapThaumaturgist (Jul 1, 2006)

They never lost the license.  I think they were either required or limited to a certain number of releases under it per year and have been focusing on the more-economically-viable miniatures market with their release schedule.

I.E. SWRPG just doesn't make enough money to be worth the trouble, while people are willing to buy cases and cases of randomized minis to get rares, ultra-rares, and completed sets.

Often the people who joyously show up at the FLGS to pick up their pre-ordered cases of randomized product are the exact same ones that blow a gasket every time there's a price hike on RPG books.

--fje


----------



## arscott (Jul 1, 2006)

Wizards never lost the license.  The thing is, SW minis are covered under the same license, and the license specified a limit on the number of products they were allowed to release each year.  Since minis are more profitable than RPG books, they focused entirely on the minis game.

If this book is real, it probably inticates that WotC changed the terms of their license starting 2007.


----------



## Turjan (Jul 1, 2006)

Actually, someone from WotC said that they will have a big announcement regarding the Star Wars RPG at GenCon this year. I guess that it will be the linked book. Good find .


----------



## CrusaderX (Jul 1, 2006)

From WizO_the_Hutt at the WotC forums:



> This is not a hoax. The Star Wars Roleplaying Game Saga Edition is very real.
> 
> There will definitely be more details at GenCon, but I don't know what more I can say before then. Until then: It's alive! Alive!!!!


----------



## booboo (Jul 1, 2006)

CrusaderX said:
			
		

> From WizO_the_Hutt at the WotC forums:




the force be with you


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Jul 1, 2006)

WooHoo! Color me stoke stoked. 

I'll take 7!


----------



## HeapThaumaturgist (Jul 1, 2006)

Luckily it'll be a while, so I'll have time to use D20 Dark*Matter for a while before we end up trying it out.

--fje


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jul 1, 2006)

Always knew they wouldn't just kill the game. Damn I'm glad to hear its definitely real.


----------



## Dragonhelm (Jul 1, 2006)

*Woo-hoo!*

What's funny is that my wookiee Jedi, who I've played for years, has gone through a homebrew White Wolf system, the d6 system, the original d20 SW RPG, the revised d20 RPG, and now we have another book!  I'm sure the changes are minimal, but still.    

I'm wondering if this book will revise the SW RPG to be more in-tune with the changes made in D&D 3.5 or not.  *shrugs*


----------



## ssampier (Jul 1, 2006)

I'm surprised--but delighted--that they changed their minds.


----------



## Banshee16 (Jul 1, 2006)

CrusaderX said:
			
		

> From WizO_the_Hutt at the WotC forums:




I'm of mixed minds....on one hand, I'm excited...on the other hand, I look at my shelf, and see the original D20 rulebook for Star Wars, and the revised rulebook.....and now there'll be a third rulebook?  

I'll be happy to see them start bringing it back....but hopefully it's not just one core rulebook.  I'd really like to see some adventures.....the lack of adventures was one of the main factors behind my never trying to run the game, though I was salivating over the books.

Banshee


----------



## Greg K (Jul 1, 2006)

Hmm. I was actually hoping that they had lost the license and that Green Ronin would have grabbed it for True20.


----------



## Odhanan (Jul 1, 2006)

*read WizO_The_Hutt*

Oh! OH! It's true then? Oh! THANKS Wizards! Thank you!   

_"I was actually hoping that they had lost the license and that Green Ronin would have grabbed it for True20."_
 *shudders* I'm glad this actually did _not_ happen. Proof all tastes can be found in nature, really. I dislike True20.


----------



## Aus_Snow (Jul 1, 2006)

*sigh*

Ah, True20 SW. That would've been nice.


----------



## Ranger REG (Jul 1, 2006)

No offense to diehardcore _True20_ fans (I like the system myself), but I'm glad that the RPG by Wizards is going back on-track.


----------



## Wraith Form (Jul 1, 2006)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> .....the lack of adventures was one of the main factors behind my never trying to run the game, though I was salivating over the books.



Oh, totally.  My group asked me to run d20 SW....we rolled up characters, got backgrounds going, chose an era......

.....

....and then the crickets started chirping and I shrugged my shoulders.  I have no adventures to run.  I even considered shoehorning some Eberron adventures into the SW setting (to my dismay I realized that was far more work in reality than it appeared in my imagination), but that wasn't happening.

So I gave up.  Sigh.  Back to D&D...


----------



## MoxieFu (Jul 1, 2006)

WF have you tried any of the adventures at this link:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/newsarchive


They may not perfectly fit the setting you decided on but they should be easier to convert than Eberron adventures. They could at least be mined for ideas.


----------



## Donovan Morningfire (Jul 1, 2006)

If this new corebook has all the updated errata and other fixes implemented, then that's good enough for me.

If they can expand it to truly cover the entire SW saga, so much the better.

As for adventures, from what I recall in regards to RPG business practices, adventures are one of the worst products in terms of cost vs. profit ratios for an RPG company.  WotC can get away with tossing out D&D adventures becuase they own D&D, and the rest of the line more than makes up for the decreased revenue.

With Star Wars, WotC has to pay a percentage to Lucasfilm on every product.  And given that adventures don't sell well to begin with, it's a no-brainer that only one actual SW adventure module was ever printed (Tempest Feud).

There've been a couple threads (which may have been lost) which promoted using various D&D modules, both purchased and downloaded from online, for Star Wars, though some tweaking is naturally required.


----------



## RodneyThompson (Jul 1, 2006)

Yep, as Gary Sarli already confirmed, the product's real. It was written by Owen K.C. Stephens and myself, and I think the release date on Amazon is correct. Now let's just hope they announce some details at GenCon so I can talk about the book!


----------



## ssampier (Jul 1, 2006)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> I'm of mixed minds....on one hand, I'm excited...on the other hand, I look at my shelf, and see the original D20 rulebook for Star Wars, and the revised rulebook.....and now there'll be a third rulebook?




I actually expected a third book when Episode III came out. I was confused when it _did not_ come out; that was telling.


----------



## hobgoblin (Jul 1, 2006)

good thing i have not gotten into the SWD20 craze yet 
book goes on my "maybe" list...


----------



## kroh (Jul 2, 2006)

Have to keep the eyes peeled... Good catch
Regards,
Walt


----------



## Just_Hal (Jul 2, 2006)

Moridin said:
			
		

> Yep, as Gary Sarli already confirmed, the product's real. It was written by Owen K.C. Stephens and myself, and I think the release date on Amazon is correct. Now let's just hope they announce some details at GenCon so I can talk about the book!





Congrats bud!
This guy is a very good writer.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jul 2, 2006)

Just_Hal said:
			
		

> Congrats bud!
> This guy is a very good writer.



 This guy is an AWESOME writer, especially for Star Wars.

Seeing him and Owen Stephens on that book just makes me feel even better...even if there aren't many changes.


----------



## Nuclear Platypus (Jul 2, 2006)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Always knew they wouldn't just kill the game. Damn I'm glad to hear its definitely real.




I find your lack of faith... disturbing. WotC isn't some wretched hive of scum and villany. If you strike a Star Wars RPG down, it will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jul 2, 2006)

Nuclear Platypus said:
			
		

> I find your lack of faith... disturbing. WotC isn't some wretched hive of scum and villany. If you strike a Star Wars RPG down, it will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.



 ...lack of faith?

I've always said it wasn't dead! You won't find many crazier Star Wars(especially d20) fans on these boards past me. 

Go back a few months and find those "Dear god, we're all going to die! SWd20 is gone forever!" threads for the real ones who didn't trust the Force!


----------



## Alzrius (Jul 2, 2006)

Donovan Morningfire said:
			
		

> If this new corebook has all the updated errata and other fixes implemented, then that's good enough for me.




Quoted for truth. I didn't buy either of the two SW d20 rulebooks, and now looking over at all the many, many fixes that were released under the Jedi Counseling series at WotC's website, I wasn't too broken up about that. Hopefully this will fix things!


----------



## trancejeremy (Jul 2, 2006)

While I'm sure it won't, I would like it if it incorporated a lot of the stuff from the KOTOR games. That was a more streamlined version of the rules, but also allowed for more , er, droid kicking. 

After playing the first one, I was real excited by the SW d20 game. But then I actually got it, and well, it was sort of the other direction. Not bad, but not as action packed as I had hoped based on KOTOR.


----------



## shadowbloodmoon (Jul 2, 2006)

This is soooo going on my list to get... Seriously though, a True 20 version would be pretty cool to have for a streamlined game, but as said before, if it incorporates some of the changes made in all the Jedi Counseling articles and includes info for all the movies, that would be great. I'll get it either way, but still...


----------



## Owen K.C. Stephens (Jul 2, 2006)

Hey Folks.

Looks like Rodney and I have both found this thread now, and hopefully getting the word out here will help it get out in general. (I received over 120 personal emails since Amazon made their posting of it.... apparently a lot more people have my email than I thought!)

There's not much we can say about the book itself, due to those pesky NDAs. When we can, I promise we will.

I can talk for just a moment about the process of writing the book. When WotC offered this to me and Rodney, we both had some trepidations. We talked to each other before committing, and ran some things back and forth with Chris Perkins at WotC. What we heard (which I can't talk about – dang it) brought us both around, so we dug in. I admit that knowing I would be working on the book with Rodney is one of the reasons I took it. The Star Wars RPG is how I met Rodney, and having worked with him on a SW project before (which is still out there in the ether), and more recently on Dragon Magic, I knew we could collaborate well and produce something we'd be proud of.

It's easier to work with someone if you can actually meet them in person sometimes, but for whatever reason I think Rodney and I do just as well with emails and near-daily chats. I know my sections were made better by his comments, and hope he found some of what I had to say useful. The project overall turned out better than I had hoped, once our part was done. Of course it'll be developed and edited (thank goodness), and playtested... and one of the reasons we can't talk about the book is that it's so far out a lot could change between now and then.

But working on it was a lot like getting to hang out with an old friend again, and at least part of that was because I was writing it with a friend.

I hope you all like it as much as we do, once it's out. And when we're allowed to, we'll happily give you a better idea what we've actually done with it.

Owen K.C. Stephens
d20 Triggerman


----------



## Wraith Form (Jul 2, 2006)

MoxieFu said:
			
		

> They may not perfectly fit the setting you decided on but they should be easier to convert than Eberron adventures. They could at least be mined for ideas.



Actually, Forgotten Forge seems pretty easy to convert.  As I read it, I pictured swappping out the D&D elements with SW elements and it seemed relatively straightforward.

(warforged = clones)
(Lord of Blades = rogue clone trooper trying to find his "roots")
(Sharn = Coruscant)
(the warforged matrix-pattern thingie = Kamino clone warrior DNA process crossed with Sith tech    )

I was going to set it a few years after the Clone Wars ended.  Everything looked good--until I realized that I wasn't sure if I could continue converting the Eberron adventure path without major obstacles / brain farts / writer's block...


----------



## Ranger REG (Jul 3, 2006)

Moridin said:
			
		

> Yep, as Gary Sarli already confirmed, the product's real. It was written by Owen K.C. Stephens and myself, and I think the release date on Amazon is correct. Now let's just hope they announce some details at GenCon so I can talk about the book!



Any other names you can leak out?


----------



## Owen K.C. Stephens (Jul 3, 2006)

You mean names of other authors? The first draft was written entirely by Rodney and myself, though obviously other people are going to get involved in the diting and development stages.

Owen K.C. Stephens
d20 Triggerman


----------



## Ranger REG (Jul 3, 2006)

OStephens said:
			
		

> I hope you all like it as much as we do, once it's out. And when we're allowed to, we'll happily give you a better idea what we've actually done with it.
> 
> Owen K.C. Stephens
> d20 Triggerman



First off, congrants to you and Rodney (aka *Moridin*).

Now I know why the _d20 Modern_ *Bullet Points* web column are occuring less frequently, although I am very grateful of the latest read (titled "It's All About the Gears").

I sincerely hope you can not only talk about the new core rulebook but the future of _SW d20._


----------



## Owen K.C. Stephens (Jul 3, 2006)

Thanks, and I hope we can talk about it soon too.

I suspect the Bullet Points' slowness has more to do with the general overwork of the tireless web team than my big projects -- I'm normally several articles ahead of them (because all -I- have to do is write them, not edit, lay out, code, find art for, or vet them with the rules team).


----------



## Johnny Angel (Jul 3, 2006)

I'm glad to hear they're going to be putting out an actual RPG for Star Wars, though I never objected to the minis.  However, this puts the kibosh on my hopes that WotC would revive the Star*Drive setting.  Well, at least Star Wars d20 is in metric.


----------



## ecliptic (Jul 3, 2006)

When I saw this I thought I was dreaming. Totally awesome. 

I hope to see a complete revamp of the Force Power system. I like the alternative system running around on the SW Forums where the Alter, Control, and Sense feats are replaced with the three like-named skills. Then you got a number of Force Powers equaled to the number of skill points in a skill.

I also like the Force Power Points replacement for Vitality Point usage.


----------



## ragboy (Jul 3, 2006)

Wraith Form said:
			
		

> ....and then the crickets started chirping and I shrugged my shoulders.  I have no adventures to run.  I even considered shoehorning some Eberron adventures into the SW setting (to my dismay I realized that was far more work in reality than it appeared in my imagination), but that wasn't happening.




I have absolutely never had this problem with Star Wars. The setting itself caused my brain to organically create a full campaign arc in just a few hours (all that was left was building the scenes and inserting the threats). And for those that didn't get inspired there's an absolute flood of Star Wars stories out there (from mini-hooks in the various d20 RPG books, tons of old school WEG adventures, comics, books, movies, TV shows, etc) you can't not have a ready-made storyline. Hell, just throw a company of stormtroopers at them and their goal is to escape Planet X with their hides and most of their ship. That's Star Wars adventure enough.

And for those that say "I need official adventures; I have no time for building anything on my own!" There were adventures posted to the WotC website, there's a whole official d20 campaign book, a mini-campaign in the basic boxed set, and a ton of fan created stuff out there. In addition, the later books (Ultimate Adversaries, Coruscant, etc) had loads of ready-made mini-campaigns, complete with stats for the threats.

Not to cause offense, but I find this excuse indefensible.

Oh...and I'll reserve my opinion of the new book until I actually see what new and different is has to offer. I think the materials that are out there right now are more than enough. In fact, they might try reprinting a few of the books (Hero's Guide, Power of the Jedi, etc). Those books were running close to $100 a book on ebay...though the price seems to have come down...


----------



## Ranger REG (Jul 3, 2006)

OStephens said:
			
		

> Thanks, and I hope we can talk about it soon too.
> 
> I suspect the Bullet Points' slowness has more to do with the general overwork of the tireless web team than my big projects -- I'm normally several articles ahead of them (because all -I- have to do is write them, not edit, lay out, code, find art for, or vet them with the rules team).



I appreciate what the web team can post. It just that _D&D_ get the highest priority, making fans of _d20 Modern_ having resentment. But that's for another thread.

Anyhoo...

Is there any way we can request that the saga rulebook contain a starship, robotic, & cybernetic creation/modification rules to customize our own _Millenium Falcon_ or _Wild Karrde_?


----------



## Donovan Morningfire (Jul 4, 2006)

ragboy said:
			
		

> In fact, they might try reprinting a few of the books (Hero's Guide, Power of the Jedi, etc). Those books were running close to $100 a book on ebay...though the price seems to have come down...



It's been confirmed over on the WotC boards that they are re-printing the Power of the Jedi and Dark Side sourcebooks with a slated release (I believe) of July.  There's no updates (in the case of the DSSB) or corrections (PotJ), but the books are being re-printed.


----------



## humble minion (Jul 4, 2006)

Speaking as someone who has been running a very long-term d20 Star Wars campaign since the release of the Revised Core Rulebook, I'm really, really hoping that the system is torn down and rebuilt from scratch.  Forget back-compatibility with older products - there's just too much non-functional stuff that needs fixing.  Really basic, core stuff, like Stun damage, and starship combat, and feebly token DCs on skill checks, a skill list that still reflects its dungeon-crawling origin far too heavily, and the complete imbalance between attack modifiers and defence scores, lightsaber combats being over in about 12 seconds whereas starfighter duels can take hours, and the disaster that is Force Points.  

An errata document that's approaching the size of the core rulebook surely indicates that just reformatting the book and including stats for a few of the characters from Revenge of the Sith simply aren't going to cut it.  Major surgery is required.  I'm not sure to what extent the work on this book has already been done, but I'd advise the writers to go to their FLGS, but a copy of Eden's Buffy RPG, and learn how a cinematic licensed system SHOULD work.  Hell, unless this product blows me away, I'll be running my next Star Wars game using a modifed version of Buffy - assuming I run it ever again, considering how burnt out I am on the whole deal after wrestling with the lousy d20 rules for so long.

Knowing Wizards, I'd be pessimistic.  But OStephens mentioned playtesting above, and (so long as this playtesting covers characters above 10th level this time round - as the playtesting for the previous version conspicuously failed to do), for that reason, I will remain a little hopeful.


----------



## Sammael (Jul 4, 2006)

I am _so_ glad I didn't buy either the original or the revised release. I imagine the release will coincide with several major Star Wars events, including the TV show and (probably) KotOR3.


----------



## Henry (Jul 4, 2006)

Excuse me while I scream like a little girl meeting Orlando Bloom. 

This is some *Good News*.


----------



## wingsandsword (Jul 4, 2006)

I don't want some experimental rebuild of a radical new force power system, I certainly don't want a total rewrite of the game.  I _liked_ the Star Wars RCR, I'd be quite happy with an edition that was much the same except for errata and fixes, some changed rules to depict things we learned in Episode III, and a more broad view of Star Wars, since the Star Wars universe has expanded so much in the 4 years between the RCR and Saga Editions: KotOR, Clone Wars, Episode III, the end of New Jedi Order, and the Legacy Era are all new editions.

While I'm quite happy to see Star Wars coming back, heck, it's the best gaming news I've heard in a long, long time, I'm also hoping they don't mess with success.


----------



## irdeggman (Jul 4, 2006)

I like it too.

The only down side is that it spells the "indefinite" tabling of bringing back any "real" emphasis on Alternity.


From what I recall, the SW RPGs had to have their "own" system to meet Lucas Arts restrictions. This is the reason that the rules deviated from the standard D&D/d20 Modern ones.

I imagine that restriction will probably remain, knowing how "controling" Luca Arts is on their IP and licenses.


----------



## Plane Sailing (Jul 4, 2006)

Henry said:
			
		

> Excuse me while I scream like a little girl meeting Orlando Bloom.




I know what you mean, he IS bloody frightening.


----------



## wingsandsword (Jul 4, 2006)

irdeggman said:
			
		

> From what I recall, the SW RPGs had to have their "own" system to meet Lucas Arts restrictions. This is the reason that the rules deviated from the standard D&D/d20 Modern ones.




Well, that and d20 Star Wars came before d20 Modern.  The original Core Rules was published in November 2000, and the Revised Core Rules in May 2002, and d20 Modern in October 2002.  That and D&D is meant for a somewhat generic medieval fantasy game, if you want to adapt it to something else, like a very specific space opera/science fantasy setting, you are going to have to make a lot of changes to make the system fit the setting.

Also, a lot of the changes seemed good for mimicing Star Wars, instead of being D&D with Jedi and Lightsabers.  Wound/Vitality became a very popular rules change, to the point of being ported over as an optional rule for D&D in UA, and I believe they did say the only reason d20 Modern didn't use it was for compatiblity with D&D.  Using meters instead of feet fit because in Star Wars they do use metric in the movies.  Classes had to be changed of course, because Jedi aren't Psychic Warriors or Paladins, and I'm glad they came up with a Force system that wasn't vancian spell levels, or even like D&D psionics, and kept with the established flavor of Star Wars in the Force having Control, Sense, and Alter aspects.


----------



## Greg K (Jul 4, 2006)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> and I'm glad they came up with a Force system that wasn't vancian spell levels, or even like D&D psionics, and kept with the established flavor of Star Wars in the Force having Control, Sense, and Alter aspects.





I agree. The Force System is the best thing to come out of the d20 Star Wars game.  That is one thing that I would not want to see change and I wish the designers of both d20Modern and DND3.5 Psionics had adapted it for their games.


----------



## hobgoblin (Jul 4, 2006)

im not sure they could have done that. control, sense, alter allso existed in west end games D6-based star wars, so i dont think its a creation of wotc. it may well be that its part of the IP that wotc is allowed to tap into.

the wound/vitality system however is something they most likely have created in-house, and therefor can port over to any other game they feel like.

and given that you can do a lower level psionic or spell by using a higher level slot these days (and some other interesting stuff, like applying modification feats on the fly if your a sorceror and have the slots available), the modern "vancian" system is more or less on par with your avarage mana pool system. ok, a bit more fiddly but still 

these days, its only the wizard style classes that gets a shaft from the vancian system by their requirement to preselect their spells rather then having a collection to select from as needed.

but i guess you can do a modified sorceror by saying that a wizard can memorize x number of spells pr class level and can swap any number of them out after 8 hours of rest and some "meditation" time. then they become more flexible then the sorceror, as the sorceror is locked to the spell he selected at the last level increase.

another thing to consider btw is that the vancian system is a d&d classic. for many it would not be d&d if it didnt have said system  it goes as far back as pre-a d&d


----------



## Aaron L (Jul 4, 2006)

Wow, this is good news.  I really like SWd20, and am glad that its going to get some more support.  Im also glad that some apparently good guys are handling the return


----------



## qstor (Jul 4, 2006)

Anyone know if the RPGA will still run Star Wars games?

Mike


----------



## Ranger REG (Jul 5, 2006)

Sammael said:
			
		

> I am _so_ glad I didn't buy either the original or the revised release. I imagine the release will coincide with several major Star Wars events, including the TV show and (probably) KotOR3.



I doubt _KOTOR._ That's more LucasArts premises.


----------



## Ranger REG (Jul 5, 2006)

Henry said:
			
		

> Excuse me while I scream like a little girl meeting Orlando Bloom.



Better than screaming for Tom Cruise, or Menudo (back in the days).


----------



## Ranger REG (Jul 5, 2006)

irdeggman said:
			
		

> From what I recall, the SW RPGs had to have their "own" system to meet Lucas Arts restrictions. This is the reason that the rules deviated from the standard D&D/d20 Modern ones.



Huh?

Last I checked, _KOTOR_ came out years AFTER _Star Wars d20._ The videogame's material is "loosely" based on the _d20 System._ To say that LucasArts got first dib sounds utterly ridiculous. Next you'll tell me that they claim to have created _d20 System_ for WotC.


----------



## 0-hr (Jul 6, 2006)

humble minion said:
			
		

> there's just too much non-functional stuff that needs fixing.  Really basic, core stuff, .




I know your pain. Luckily, I really like to fiddle with rules and have found a group that doesn't mind playing "StarWars 3.5" with me.

My current list of house rules (which are my attempt to compensate for much of what you mention), are online here:

Morningstar d20 StarWars

If anyone developing the new book wants a little more playtesting info, the house rules there represent what our group (after a couple years of playing) feels was needed to make the game playable.

You can ignore the setting info further down the page (the setting is Star Wars mixed with Fading Suns - not that that has any real impact on the house rules).

Regardless though, I'm glad to hear a new book is coming out. I'm also glad for the recent reprinting of "Power of the Jedi". But if PotJ is made obsolete by the Saga book, then WotC will look pretty sleazy.


----------



## irdeggman (Jul 7, 2006)

Quote:
Originally Posted by irdeggman
From what I recall, the SW RPGs had to have their "own" system to meet Lucas Arts restrictions. This is the reason that the rules deviated from the standard D&D/d20 Modern ones. 




			
				Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Huh?
> 
> Last I checked, _KOTOR_ came out years AFTER _Star Wars d20._ The videogame's material is "loosely" based on the _d20 System._ To say that LucasArts got first dib sounds utterly ridiculous. Next you'll tell me that they claim to have created _d20 System_ for WotC.





Huh?  I wasn't at all refering to a computer or console game. IMO using them for a comparison to any RPG (as in live face to face playing and not play by post/e-mail) is a huge mistake. Electronic games have a whole other set of restictions on what they can and can not do and never should the two be talked about as if they are the same thing or played the same.

I also never said anything about first dibs.

All I said that there was something that "forced" WotC to have a unique rule set for the Star Wars games.  If you notice you do not need the "core D&D" or d20 Modern books to paly Star wars - the books are self contained.

They used the d20 system but not the D&D nor the d20 Modern "versions".


----------



## Faraer (Jul 7, 2006)

Concerning the supposed lack of SWRPG adventures: about 60 were published.


----------



## Ranger REG (Jul 7, 2006)

irdeggman said:
			
		

> All I said that there was *something* that "forced" WotC to have a unique rule set for the Star Wars games.



Well, yeah. That *something* is the fans. They demanded that _Star Wars_ do not have that strong "_D&D_ in space" flavor shackled to it, way back in 1999.  

How you attempt to include LucasArts into your argument is beyond me. Their territory is the _Star Wars_ electronic game license. Lucasfilm Licensing (LFL) is the agency that handles licensing of Lucasfilm's trademarks.


----------



## wingsandsword (Jul 7, 2006)

irdeggman said:
			
		

> All I said that there was something that "forced" WotC to have a unique rule set for the Star Wars games.  If you notice you do not need the "core D&D" or d20 Modern books to paly Star wars - the books are self contained.
> 
> They used the d20 system but not the D&D nor the d20 Modern "versions".



As I said before, d20 Modern wasn't even out when either of the Star Wars core books came out, and it's not a bad thing that it wasn't based off of the D&D

Also, WotC, when making any licensed d20 games, not just Star Wars, they made a separate and self contained core book: Wheel of Time and Call of Cthuhlu d20 also had self contained core books that required no D&D Player's Handbook.  Actually, WotC has never made anything other than D&D require the D&D handbook, or d20 modern would have required the D&D PHB.

The idea of shoehorning in products that are totally dissimilar from the medieval fantasy of D&D into using a D&D Player's Handbook is something more from the 3rd party OGL/d20 community, because of the terms of the d20 license.


----------



## kenobi65 (Jul 7, 2006)

qstor said:
			
		

> Anyone know if the RPGA will still run Star Wars games?




Unknown at this point, but possible.  I'd read quotes by Ian Richards (RPGA director) over the past few months, along the lines of "never say never".  My guess is that he knew about the new book, but the NDA prevented him from commenting.

I wouldn't expect any kind of announcement / acknowledgement from the RPGA until after WotC's official announcement of the new book at GenCon, at the earliest.

The campaign co-ordinator of the old Living Force campaign, August Hahn, has moved on to the RPGA's new Xen'drik Expeditions campaign, so if the RPGA does start up a new SW campaign, they'll need a new staffer, at a minimum.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the RPGA hasn't started a new Living-style campaign in 4 years.  The last three campaigns that they've launched (Legacy of the Green Regent, Mark of Heroes, and now Xen'drik) have all used the "D&D Campaigns" model, which works quite a bit differently from how Living campaigns work (online character tracking, level bumps, limited module availability, etc.).  If the RPGA decides to launch a new SW campaign, it might well use the D&D Campaigns model...and, just speaking for myself, that may well decrease my interest in it.


----------



## Desdichado (Jul 7, 2006)

I wonder what they heck they mean by "Saga edition?"  If it's a rules update, then no thanks.  If it were a setting book for _Knights of the Old Republic_ I'd let WotC take my kidney in a back alley with a shiv and leave me sitting in a cheap motel bathtub full of ice to have it.


----------



## irdeggman (Jul 7, 2006)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Well, yeah. That *something* is the fans. They demanded that _Star Wars_ do not have that strong "_D&D_ in space" flavor shackled to it, way back in 1999.




I seem to recall something posted somewhere (yeah I know a real good arguement for my point) that paralleled by statement. Note that when the original d20 Star Wars came oput (using 3.0 ruleset) all d20 books had to use the core D&D books as part of their d20 licenses. Deadlands, etc. They could not replicate the base information. Over time the OGL/OGC took form and WotC backed down from their original stance.

Star Wars did not require the core books at all. 



> How you attempt to include LucasArts into your argument is beyond me. Their territory is the _Star Wars_ electronic game license. Lucasfilm Licensing (LFL) is the agency that handles licensing of Lucasfilm's trademarks.




Correct, I mistakenly lumped in one branch of Lucas' empire with another one.


----------



## Plane Sailing (Jul 7, 2006)

irdeggman said:
			
		

> Note that when the original d20 Star Wars came oput (using 3.0 ruleset) all d20 books had to use the core D&D books as part of their d20 licenses. Deadlands, etc. They could not replicate the base information. Over time the OGL/OGC took form and WotC backed down from their original stance.
> 
> Star Wars did not require the core books at all.




I'm afraid I have to correct your assertion here... 

The OGL and d20 license both existed from the beginning. The only difference is that at first more third party products were produced to match the d20 license (which didn't allow you to include level advancement etc - you had to refer to the 'core rulebooks' i.e. PHB/DMG) and then later more and more companies took to using the OGL license for the freedom it offered in making a 'complete' rulebook.

The restrictions on what you can put in a 'd20' book still hold. The flexibility allowed to an OGL book haven't changed.

Cheers


----------



## Ranger REG (Jul 7, 2006)

J-Dawg said:
			
		

> I wonder what they heck they mean by "Saga edition?"



Think "2nd Edition."


----------



## Ranger REG (Jul 7, 2006)

irdeggman said:
			
		

> I seem to recall something posted somewhere (yeah I know a real good arguement for my point) that paralleled by statement. Note that when the original d20 Star Wars came oput (using 3.0 ruleset) all d20 books had to use the core D&D books as part of their d20 licenses. Deadlands, etc. They could not replicate the base information. Over time the OGL/OGC took form and WotC backed down from their original stance.
> 
> Star Wars did not require the core books at all.



???

You expected WotC to make a _Star Wars_ "worldbook" (a la _GURPS_) that requires the _Dungeons & Dragons Player's Handbook_?

Dude, that would have been ZE WURSE business marketing decision WotC could have made.  :\

Don't overanalyze or overponder this. Just be glad that _Star Wars RPG_ is its own line.


----------



## kenobi65 (Jul 7, 2006)

J-Dawg said:
			
		

> I wonder what they heck they mean by "Saga edition?"




Well, given that the most recent releases of action figures from Hasbro (containing characters from all of the movies) have been labeled "Saga Collection", my guess is that "Saga" refers to the six movies, as a whole.  In other words, "Saga Edition" is a new edition of the game, written to reflect all of the movies.  Just a guess.


----------



## Desdichado (Jul 7, 2006)

Probably a good guess.  But, again, I have to seriously wonder what it's adding to what I've already got that's worth me picking up a _third_ d20 variant of Star Wars when I still haven't been able to get a campaign off the ground as it is.  

Something that had a lot of new setting material, i.e. a _Knights of the Old Republic_/Jedi Civil War era book would be something that I'd be all over; another revision/reprint with a little bit of new content, new layout and a handful of new images doesn't entice me much at all.


----------



## kenobi65 (Jul 7, 2006)

J-Dawg said:
			
		

> Probably a good guess.  But, again, I have to seriously wonder what it's adding to what I've already got that's worth me picking up a _third_ d20 variant of Star Wars when I still haven't been able to get a campaign off the ground as it is.




Heh...counting my West End Games SW books, this'd be my *sixth* different Star Wars RPG "core rulebook."

My guess would be that the biggest areas of change, versus the d20 Revised Core Rulebook, would be:
- Revised rules on Jedi / the Force, due to new information from RotS (e.g., good guys using Force Push / Strike, etc.)
- Better starship / vehicle combat rules (probably cribbed in part from the upcoming starship minis game)


----------



## Wraith Form (Jul 7, 2006)

ragboy said:
			
		

> Hell, just throw a company of stormtroopers at them and their goal is to escape Planet X with their hides and most of their ship. That's Star Wars adventure enough.




That doesn't sound like a very exciting "adventure"--not to cause offense.



			
				ragboy said:
			
		

> Not to cause offense, but I find this excuse indefensible.




I'm not offended, but I'm not an experienced DM/GM.  If you don't consider that an "appropriate" reason, that's not my issue.  

Oh, and Tempest Storm is for 9th level (IIRC) adventurers.  I'd prefer 1st through 8th to be filled in somehow.  Some of the other items you mention I don't own.



			
				ragboy said:
			
		

> The setting itself caused my brain to organically create a full campaign arc in just a few hours (all that was left was building the scenes and inserting the threats).



I'm really, tremendously thrilled as hell that it caused an explosion of creativity for you.  It didn't for me.  What can I say?  Am I a horrible person because I wasn't as inspired as you?  (There was an implication that I am in the tone of your post.)


----------



## irdeggman (Jul 8, 2006)

I also beleive that "saga" refes to the entire Star Wars (6 movie) saga - not the old game that died painfully when introduced.

It could use a rules rewrite. The revised rules were somewhere between 3.0 and 3.5 in comparision but closer to 3.0. They still had "refocus" as an action.

There are a lot of things from Jedi Counseling that could/should be incorporated.

I seriously doubt if it will be something that doesn't look a lot like the 3.5 rules.


----------



## humble minion (Jul 8, 2006)

Ki Ryn said:
			
		

> I know your pain. Luckily, I really like to fiddle with rules and have found a group that doesn't mind playing "StarWars 3.5" with me.
> 
> My current list of house rules (which are my attempt to compensate for much of what you mention), are online here:
> 
> Morningstar d20 StarWars




Yeah, I put a fair bit of effort into house rules for a while too, but the major issues (attack/defense imbalance and starship combat) were just too big for me to tackle, and I'd already introduced so many house rules that my players couldn't keep them straight and were getting mutinous.  So nowadays I just run it in a rather rules-light fashion and cheat mercilessly when the good of the story requires it.  Fortunately, my players trust me to do that sort of thing, or I would have dumped the campaign long ago.


----------



## Turanil (Jul 8, 2006)

OStephens said:
			
		

> There's not much we can say about the book itself, due to those pesky NDAs. <...> Of course it'll be developed and edited (thank goodness), and playtested... and one of the reasons we can't talk about the book is that it's so far out a lot could change between now and then. <...>



Sounds like it is a totally new version much different from the Revised Corebook. I will get a look for sure, but for buying it that's another story. Maybe if I find people willing to buy my older versions of the  d20SW game...


----------



## ragboy (Jul 8, 2006)

Wraith Form said:
			
		

> That doesn't sound like a very exciting "adventure"--not to cause offense.




To get the characters MOVING, give you some DM'ing experience in a relatively simple encounter and give a story an initial direction, it's about as Star Wars RPG as it gets. 



			
				Wraith Form said:
			
		

> I'm not offended, but I'm not an experienced DM/GM.  If you don't consider that an "appropriate" reason, that's not my issue.




I wasn't trying to start a fight, just illustrate that the resources are out there. If you're not so experienced, I'd suggest the Boxed Set. There's a mini-arc of adventures that take characters from 1st to 3rd level. I started my kids on it because they were complete neophytes to d20 and RPG's in general. Lots of action, some opportunities for intrigue/interaction and a ready-made plot. I think the benefit of the SW universe over D&D or other campaigns is that most people are conversant in the mythos, at least of the movies. If you tell someone there's a wookie standing in front of them, they know what that is, typically. In my kids' case, it was exactly the game they needed to get interested in other forms of RPG'ing. 

Again, not telling you you're a horrible person, just trying to give you some options if you decide to come back into the SWRPG fold. It's a great change of pace if your group is stuck in a D&D rut, and I prefer the universe to a standard sci-fi universe since you can do a lot of 'fantasy' stuff and no one bats an eye. Sorry to come off as overbearing and accusatory.


----------



## Wraith Form (Jul 8, 2006)

ragboy said:
			
		

> Sorry to come off as overbearing and accusatory.



It's cool.  Peace re-established.

I'll be buying the books and reading them--whether or not I game in the universe.  I love to read the books just for the little "gems" that get thrown out.


----------



## Ranger REG (Jul 8, 2006)

Turanil said:
			
		

> Maybe if I find people willing to buy my older versions of the  d20SW game...



Heh. Reminds me of a time when they try to push that 3.5e is still backward compatible with older 3.0e products but honestly, the fans just doesn't buy it.   

I wonder if _POTJ_ and _DSSB_ reprints this summer is going to be attractive to _SW d20_ gamers who are already exposed to the Saga edition news leak.


----------



## Donovan Morningfire (Jul 9, 2006)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> I wonder if _POTJ_ and _DSSB_ reprints this summer is going to be attractive to _SW d20_ gamers who are already exposed to the Saga edition news leak.



They may well still be quite attractive, just for the background information on playing Dark Siders (either for GM or PCs) in DSSB, as well as some pretty nifty Force skills that still have yet to make it to a Revised edition sourcebook.  And I would consider Power of the Jedi a vital sourcebook if you've got anyone that wants to play a Jedi character, since it's got entire chapters devoted to the history and methodology of being a Jedi Knight.

As for the crunch parts, unless they radically overhaul all the classes (based on the latest errata, only the Tech Specialist comes close to this by way of boosted skill points and bonus feats) and how the Force works, Saga edition would still be backwards compatible with prior sourcebooks.  It'll just take a bit of work on the GM's part to get all their ducks in a row.


----------



## Ranger REG (Jul 10, 2006)

Donovan Morningfire said:
			
		

> It'll just take a bit of work on the GM's part to get all their ducks in a row.



Not a problem for old-school GMs. It's them new-school young'uns we should be concerned about.


----------



## Donovan Morningfire (Jul 10, 2006)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Not a problem for old-school GMs. It's them new-school young'uns we should be concerned about.



Not always the case.  I know some new-school "young'uns" that are willing and eager to roll up their sleeves and get to work as were, as well as some old-school GMs that can't be bothered anymore, often citing "they don't have time to waste on converting material."


----------



## Belen (Jul 10, 2006)

As far as I know from delegate sources, this is just a reprint with errta fixes, but the program could be wrong.


----------



## Plane Sailing (Jul 10, 2006)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> As far as I know from delegate sources, this is just a reprint with errta fixes, but the program could be wrong.




I know I'm swimming against the tide here, but I'd be quite disappointed with that. I think that the way that the force is handled (and force points in particular) could do with a complete overhaul, and much else could be improved too. The idea of using up your forcepoints is completely counter to the films, as is the idea of using the force tiring you out all the time (as the vitality cost does). It really needs a complete re-imagining IMO.

Although it won't happen I think a d20 Modern based version with the Modern base classes and then the star wars specific advanced classes laid on top of that would be neat.

Cheers


----------



## wingsandsword (Jul 10, 2006)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> The idea of using up your forcepoints is completely counter to the films, as is the idea of using the force tiring you out all the time (as the vitality cost does).



Actually, there is good film evidence for Force use wearing you out.  When Yoda moved Luke's X-Wing by telekinesis, he did look tired at the end.  Although combined with lots of fighting, Qui-Gon was exhausted after he escaped from Darth Maul the first time on Tatooine, and Yoda was also visibly exhausted after escaping from his duel with Palpatine, and those were both full of Force use (especially the later).

Star Wars is one of those things that people will never agree on a single way to do it, it's like edition wars with D&D except with an additional layer of complexity in that you are trying to emulate a very specific source material instead of a genre on top of making it a playable, fun, and balanced game.  There are still plenty of people who play D6 Star Wars, and it was a fine game too, but the current edition works fine for me.  I've run year long campaigns in both systems, and they both have strengths and weaknesses, but I don't want to have to learn yet another system to do the same thing.

Also, the RCR was essentially an Episode II tie in, the same general rules, with just some errata and minor fixes, and a more broad focus on the whole of Star Wars (since we have all 6 movies, and everything from KOTOR to NJO and Legacy era and beyond now), makes sense.  Just reprinting the RCR would look a little dated, with the conspicuous lack of anything from Episode III and the huge amount of Episode II pictures all over.


----------



## Plane Sailing (Jul 11, 2006)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> Actually, there is good film evidence for Force use wearing you out.  When Yoda moved Luke's X-Wing by telekinesis, he did look tired at the end.  Although combined with lots of fighting, Qui-Gon was exhausted after he escaped from Darth Maul the first time on Tatooine, and Yoda was also visibly exhausted after escaping from his duel with Palpatine, and those were both full of Force use (especially the later).




I'd allow for extreme effot being tiring (e.g. lifting the x-wing); being tired after the fighting would normally be a case of losing vitality from the fighting itself though.

Furthermore, they got it back. The core rules expenditure of force points to do stuff doesn't seem to have any correlation with the films as far as I can see. If you are strong in the force, you are strong in the force. In our campaigns we house-ruled them as a reusable resource to make a little more sense to us, but that is why I think a re-imagining of the whole thing would be considerably better now.

Cheers


----------



## Donovan Morningfire (Jul 11, 2006)

Maybe one idea is to change the fundamental way Force Points work so that they are more like Action Points?  A renewable resource (when you level), but not quite as powerful as they can currently be at higher-levels?

I liken the concept of Force Points to be a case of "giving it your all," and that kind of exertion of will/effort/mystical energy field should have a cost, in that once you spend the Force Point, it's gone, which makes them all the more precious.  Of course, I also allow "bending of the rules" when Force Points become involved, usually since my players tend not to have a great many of them (the one player that horded them ended up in a bad way after a particularly rough adventure since she was reluctant to spend any of her Force Points, even though as a non-Force-user she'd long since maxed out her FPs.)


----------



## wingsandsword (Jul 11, 2006)

Force Points aren't supposed to represent if you are "Strong in the Force". For the purposes of the RPG, that's represented by the Force Sensitive feat, and in very rare cases by special qualities like the Skywalker "template" for being far more powerful than normal.  

When starting Anakin Skywalker in Episode I can have 2 Force Points, but Han Solo in Episode IV has 4 Force Points, it's pretty clear that Force Points don't mean strength in the Force.  Force Points are a game-mechanical convention to represent those very few times when characters do the seemingly impossible.  Something that only happens very rarely, but slightly more often to those who are strong in the Force (Han Solo and Wedge Antilles would be good examples of non-FS people with a good number of Force Points).  Luke's shot into the exhaust port is the archetypical example of a Force Point use in any edition of the game.

As for getting them back, they were far easier to get back in the old D6 edition of the game, and they were a lot more of a problem because of that.  I don't want Force Points to come back so easily, because they are powerful, and that can become very game imbalancing.  The RPG is supposed to reflect Star Wars, but it is also supposed to be a game that works well.  With something as abstract as Force Points, that don't directly reflect anything from the movies, making it a balanced and playable game is more important (to me at least) than philosophically reconciling game design and movie philosophy.

Also, using Force Points up does work very, very well with the rules for Force Ghosts, especially how they've been depicted in the EU, that they can only come back a finite number of times, and in the RPG a force ghost must spend a Force Point every time it wishes to appear.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jul 11, 2006)

As usual, wingsandsword put it best.

Not only that, but I think the skill/feat based Force System(which also represents how strong one is in the Force by the number of skill points spent) is the best I've seen for emulating the movies/comics/books/etc and still remaining playable.

The ONLY thing I can see as a problem with it is the need for so many skill points to divide between regular and Force skills...but that's not a huge problem, from my experience.


----------



## Plane Sailing (Jul 11, 2006)

As I said:



			
				Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> I know I'm swimming against the tide here




It's nice that it works as-is for many people, it doesn't work as-is for my friends and I though.

I will await the arrival of this new edition with interest.

Cheers


----------



## Donovan Morningfire (Jul 11, 2006)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> The ONLY thing I can see as a problem with it is the need for so many skill points to divide between regular and Force skills...but that's not a huge problem, from my experience.



Are you refering to Force-using characters having to split their skill points between the two?  In that case, it's done for the sake of that mythological concept known as "game balance," namely to avoid the problems a lot of people had with Jedi in the d6 version, where a handful of skills enable a Jedi character to accomplish all sorts of neat stuff while the bounty hunter and smuggler with their key skills can't pull off half the stuff a Jedi can.

Smuggler: with my 11D pilot skill, I can fly through an asteroid field and not get a scratch.
Bounty Hunter: With my 11D blaster skill, I can peg a fly between the eyeballs.
Jedi: With my 11D Alter skill, I can peg a fly between the eyes with an asteroid.

(a little extreme, but it gets the point across)

I know that in a Jedi Counseling article and as part of the 'Official' RotS web sourcebook, the option was given to roll all the various Force skills under their respective feat (i.e. Control skill, Sense skill, Alter skill; similar to how d6 handled Force skills), and you get one 'power' per rank in that Force skill (5 ranks in Control skill means 5 Control powers).


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jul 11, 2006)

Oh, I know why they do it...and I've been playing SWd20 since day 1, with a good amoutn of D6 experience beforehand.

The problem becomes when a character doesn't have enough Skill Points to be good at either their regular skills or their Force skills. I've seen players go all directions...some with more focus on the normal, others more on the Force, and then some trying to balance them.

Either way, this is where I see possibly the point where its hardest to emulate the movies/comics/books/etc. You cannot possibly have enough skill points to be able to do all the things that we see many Jedi/main characters doing. Yes, writeups for the characters are fairly good, but there's always something missing.

Now, I will say this is a MINOR problem at most, and is something that can just be taken as others in the sense of "It has to be done for the sake of the game," but if there's anything that's really a problem with the way the Force works...that's it.


----------



## HeapThaumaturgist (Jul 11, 2006)

I saw the "can't do both" issue as well, and recognized it for game balance.  Force-heavy characters will be skill-weak and vice-versa.

For an all-Jedi game I bumped up skill point aquisition a little and that helped.  I gave everybody an extra skill point and a free "2 Skills, +2" type Force feat for free as an origin feat available only to people during The Old Republic.

--fje


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jul 11, 2006)

HeapThaumaturgist said:
			
		

> I saw the "can't do both" issue as well, and recognized it for game balance.  Force-heavy characters will be skill-weak and vice-versa.
> 
> For an all-Jedi game I bumped up skill point aquisition a little and that helped.  I gave everybody an extra skill point and a free "2 Skills, +2" type Force feat for free as an origin feat available only to people during The Old Republic.
> 
> --fje



 I did that in one game and it worked pretty well, but it was just playing with things and I didn't include it in any others.

But its definitely felt the most in the Old Republic era...when Jedi are supposed to be good Diplomats, Pilots, Technicians, Warriors, and Force Users...not all at the same time, but usually a combination of them where it taxes skill points.

Course, I remember D6 and some of the insanities one could get with the Force there so I know how bad it can get...


----------



## Ranger REG (Jul 12, 2006)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> I know I'm swimming against the tide here, but I'd be quite disappointed with that. I think that the way that the force is handled (and force points in particular) could do with a complete overhaul, and much else could be improved too. The idea of using up your forcepoints is completely counter to the films, *as is the idea of using the force tiring you out all the time (as the vitality cost does).* It really needs a complete re-imagining IMO.



Actually, I like that mechanics. I really cannot stand the old idea of having set number of power use per day, even with a point system that can only be replenished with an 8-hour sleep period. At least with VP, it can be replenished in a short amount of time, and the effect of using the power should be taxing.


----------



## Skywalker (Jul 12, 2006)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Actually, I like that mechanics. I really cannot stand the old idea of having set number of power use per day, even with a point system that can only be replenished with an 8-hour sleep period. At least with VP, it can be replenished in a short amount of time, and the effect of using the power should be taxing.




I agree. 

I think the real issue lies in how VP are defined i.e. along the lines of Hit Points. I think VP are a great resource that cover much more than this limited definition. Essentially, they act as a form of drama points by managing the "screen time" of the PCs i.e. Jedi get to use only so much cool funky power usage, warrior types get only so much arse kicking in combat etc. Vp are in many ways what seperates Luke the farm boy from the better trained Stormtrooper mooks and allow him to escape the Death Star. 

So I hope they keep VP and personally I would like to see VP also be able to be spent on other stuff, such as granting bonuses on Skill use etc much like Action Points in d20 Modern. That would allow VP also to manage the screen time of skill users and bring the three main archetypes in line.

In a recent SW d20 game we used the following house rule for great effect:

_The GM decides for each PC whether he or she gets 1d6, 1d8 or 1d10 Vitality Points per level depending on the style of play he wants. The more Vitality Points the greater the heroism. A GM may also award lower level PCs with greater Vitality Points to allow those PCs greater flexibility to counter the lower power level.
A PC may spend 5 Vitality Points to do any of the following:
1. Reroll any one d20 roll the PC makes and take the better of the two results. If both results are below 10, treat the roll as a 10. The player must spend the Vitality Points and reroll before the GM announces the result of the roll. 
2. Gain an additional action for one round.
3. Ignore the effects of physical conditions such as fatigued, stunned or unconscious for one round.
A PC may spend 10 Vitality Points to do any of the following:
1. Gain the benefits of a feat the PC doesn’t already have for one scene. The PC must be capable of acquiring the feat normally, meaning the PC must meet all the prerequisites. 
2. Add a plot twist into the story as approved by the GM.
3. Automatically stabilize the PC or someone the PC is attempting to heal; although, this doesn’t protect the PC from further damage._


----------



## Sketchpad (Jul 13, 2006)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> While I'm sure it won't, I would like it if it incorporated a lot of the stuff from the KOTOR games. That was a more streamlined version of the rules, but also allowed for more , er, droid kicking.
> 
> After playing the first one, I was real excited by the SW d20 game. But then I actually got it, and well, it was sort of the other direction. Not bad, but not as action packed as I had hoped based on KOTOR.




I would prefer if they made a KOTOR campaign book like Eberron or the FR CS   Include races, state of the galaxy, new pres classes, equipment and any other info needed to run a KOTOR game


----------



## wingsandsword (Jul 13, 2006)

Sketchpad said:
			
		

> I would prefer if they made a KOTOR campaign book like Eberron or the FR CS   Include races, state of the galaxy, new pres classes, equipment and any other info needed to run a KOTOR game




Why just be limited to the Knights of the Old Republic computer games as your source material for the era?  They weren't the only sources for that era.  Long before KOTOR was ever made, almost a decade before, the Tales Of The Jedi comic book series was set in the same era (just a few decades before the first KOTOR I believe).  The old D6 SWRPG even had a sourcebook for that era a decade ago, so there is plenty of information on that era beyond just KOTOR.

It would make a lot more sense to make an "Old Republic Era Sourcebook" in line with the Rebellion Era Sourcebook and New Jedi Order Sourcebooks that have already been made.  Everything from the founding of the Republic and the Jedi, to the Battle of Ruusan in 1000 BBY and the Ruusan Reformation that really changed the Republic and the Jedi from the KOTOR/TotJ way to as we saw it in the prequels.

If they are making a new series of books along with the "Saga Edition" of the SWRPG, I'd hope that era sourcebooks for all the various eras LFL divides Star Wars into would be done (with reprints/updates of the ones already done).


----------



## Ranger REG (Jul 13, 2006)

Sketchpad said:
			
		

> I would prefer if they made a KOTOR campaign book like Eberron or the FR CS   Include races, state of the galaxy, new pres classes, equipment and any other info needed to run a KOTOR game



Sorry, while _Eberron_ and _FR_ were designed for a certain pen-n-paper RPG in the first place, _KOTOR_ is a computer game and at this time in LucasArts' territory.

WotC could draw on the same elements and reference material that _KOTOR_ is based on, but I don't think they have the permission ... yet ... to publish and distribute a _KOTOR_-labeled sourcebook.


----------



## CrusaderX (Jul 13, 2006)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Sorry, while _Eberron_ and _FR_ were designed for a certain pen-n-paper RPG in the first place, _KOTOR_ is a computer game and at this time in LucasArts' territory.
> 
> WotC could draw on the same elements and reference material that _KOTOR_ is based on, but I don't think they have the permission ... yet ... to publish and distribute a _KOTOR_-labeled sourcebook.




But the KOTOR era covers a huge timeframe.  The actual term "Knights of the Old Republic" didn't originiate with the KOTOR videogame, nor does it deal exclusively with elements from that game.  Dark Horse had a "Knights of the Old Republic" trade paperback (which collected the Tales of the Jedi comics) years before there was a KOTOR videogame.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jul 13, 2006)

CrusaderX said:
			
		

> But the KOTOR era covers a huge timeframe.  The actual term "Knights of the Old Republic" didn't originiate with the KOTOR videogame, nor does it deal exclusively with elements from that game.  Dark Horse had a "Knights of the Old Republic" trade paperback (which collected the Tales of the Jedi comics) years before there was a KOTOR videogame.



 But Power of the Jedi does a VERY good job of covering that era from the comics.

Honestly, even if you add in the KotOR games, there isn't much info, stat wise, beyond characters. We see so little vehicles, ships, etc that its almost basically going to end up looking just like the PotJ book, with the video game stuff thrown in.


----------



## Ranger REG (Jul 13, 2006)

CrusaderX said:
			
		

> But the KOTOR era covers a huge timeframe.  The actual term "Knights of the Old Republic" didn't originiate with the KOTOR videogame, nor does it deal exclusively with elements from that game.  Dark Horse had a "Knights of the Old Republic" trade paperback (which collected the Tales of the Jedi comics) years before there was a KOTOR videogame.



Not many people know that (including me, who stopped reading comics and graphic novels in the last millenium). When one speak of _KOTOR_ many of the general public today is going to expect the computer game element.


----------



## Faraer (Jul 13, 2006)

In any case, Wizards hasn't published any SWRPG sourcebook as narrow as covering a single series of EU works. As wingsandsword says, the book we're waiting for is the _Old Republic Era Sourcebook_, though as one of the game's three main eras the _Rise of the Empire Era Sourcebook_ would take priority.


----------



## Sketchpad (Jul 13, 2006)

CrusaderX said:
			
		

> But the KOTOR era covers a huge timeframe.  The actual term "Knights of the Old Republic" didn't originiate with the KOTOR videogame, nor does it deal exclusively with elements from that game.  Dark Horse had a "Knights of the Old Republic" trade paperback (which collected the Tales of the Jedi comics) years before there was a KOTOR videogame.





Thank you ... that's exactly what I'm talking about   I've been a fan of the era since TotJ and into KOTOR.  It think it'd be smarter to market it as a KOTOR book, tying into all ideas that happen in that era (KOTOR, TotJ and beyond).  I have the WEG TotJ book and there's much more to cover than what was presented in PotJ, especially if you take all the info into consideration ... new powers, prestige classes, vehicles, equipment, droids, races, etc.  
There was a time when WEG explored the SW Expanded Universe ... I hope for the best with this new version of d20  

. o O {especially since the mini line seems to be doing this}


----------



## Ranger REG (Jul 14, 2006)

Sketchpad said:
			
		

> Thank you ... that's exactly what I'm talking about   I've been a fan of the era since TotJ and into KOTOR.  It think it'd be smarter to market it as a KOTOR book, tying into all ideas that happen in that era (KOTOR, TotJ and beyond).



Smarter, yes, but it will overlap into LucasArts territory, especially if you use specific elements from the computer game itself.

Consumers will expect that a _KOTOR-_labeled sourcebook is about the computer game and that can be misleading.


----------



## Sketchpad (Jul 14, 2006)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Smarter, yes, but it will overlap into LucasArts territory, especially if you use specific elements from the computer game itself.
> 
> Consumers will expect that a _KOTOR-_labeled sourcebook is about the computer game and that can be misleading.




Maybe, but it can also be considered cross-promotional.  I know of a few people who'd get the book just to read it   As for overlap ... they did give stats for some of the major players in KOTOR I on the WotC website ... so wouldn't that be considered overlapping?


----------



## Ranger REG (Jul 14, 2006)

Sketchpad said:
			
		

> Maybe, but it can also be considered cross-promotional.  I know of a few people who'd get the book just to read it   As for overlap ... they did give stats for some of the major players in KOTOR I on the WotC website ... so wouldn't that be considered overlapping?



Overlapping but free. To sell such information would mean they have to cut a deal with LucasArts. That also means sharing more of their revenue with another party.


----------



## Faraer (Jul 14, 2006)

Calling such a book _Knights of the Old Republic: Old Republic Era Sourcebook_ would be fine (though misleading, as it wouldn't be focused on Knights and there are already computer games and comics of that title).







			
				Ranger REG said:
			
		

> To sell such information would mean they have to cut a deal with LucasArts.



No it wouldn't: Lucasfilm owns the copyright of everything produced for _Star Wars_, so that content would be covered by WotC's existing licence.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jul 14, 2006)

Faraer said:
			
		

> No it wouldn't: Lucasfilm owns the copyright of everything produced for _Star Wars_, so that content would be covered by WotC's existing licence.




Which is why things like Dark Troopers from the games made it into the Rebellion Era book just fine.


----------



## RodneyThompson (Jul 14, 2006)

For the record: any piece of lore or continuity that goes _into_ the Star Wars universe, such as info from comics, books, novels, video games, etc. becomes part of the collective whole. Any licensee can draw upon any part of the collective whole (though prior to Episode III there were some things that were "off limits" due to George finishing the movies) without needing to negotiate a separate license. When you create something for a licensed Star Wars product that becomes part of continuity, it becomes fair game for all other licensees. This is how many of the things I created for the _Hero's Guide_ found their way into _Knights of the Old Republic II: Sith Lords_ without them needing to negotiate for the rights from WotC.

Think of Star Wars continuity as a big soup pot, and when a licensee creates something it gets tossed into the pot, allowing all other licensees to pull out of the pot at will.


----------



## Ranger REG (Jul 15, 2006)

Faraer said:
			
		

> No it wouldn't: Lucasfilm owns the copyright of everything produced for _Star Wars_, so that content would be covered by WotC's existing licence.



Lucasfilms may own the copyright but that doesn't mean WotC can simply "steal" specific material from the computer game developed by another licensee. In fact, it would be rude.

If they want to publish an Old Republic sourcebook commercially, then go ahead. There are other [Lucafilm approved] material that WotC can research from (probably the same research material that Bioware used for their _KOTOR_).


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jul 15, 2006)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Lucasfilms may own the copyright but that doesn't mean WotC can simply "steal" specific material from the computer game developed by another licensee. In fact, it would be rude.
> 
> If they want to publish an Old Republic sourcebook commercially, then go ahead. There are other [Lucafilm approved] material that WotC can research from (probably the same research material that Bioware used for their _KOTOR_).



 See Moridin's post above.

Its not stealing...all of Star Wars, no matter where its origins, is part of Star Wars and under the same license.


----------



## GAAAHHH (Jul 15, 2006)

The problem with skill points in the current edition becomes apparent when you want to (or are forced (bad GM)) into a force using class after taking several levels of a non-force using class.  There aren't nearly enough skill points (and feats) to split between force powers/skills.  And on top of that, the skills you depended on before begin to fall behind in effectiveness.

Example: Pilot 6/Force Adept 2/Sith Apprentice ? (It's been a while so I can't remember exactly)  

I took force sensitive, and from then on, the GM pushed me into force classes (private lessons from Emperor Palpitine, anyone?!?!?!)...  

Anyway, it turned out I needed to spend a force point on just about every force use I had to do because my skill points weren't enough to split between the skills.  And as an evil SOB, those weren't exactly easy to get.

On the plus side, my favorite fighting style: Lightsaber in one hand, activated Thermal Detonator in the other...  Go ahead, strike me down


----------



## Morgenstern (Jul 15, 2006)

Looking at the jedi in the films, it seems pretty clear to me that in any d20M-based addaptation, you should by be buying your ranks in force powers with wealth instead of skill points.

Jedi are plenty skillful - being (gear) poor seems to be the tradeoff they actuallty experience compared to the other archtypes of the setting. Clothes? Check. Lightsaber? Check. hyperdrive-fighter? Sometimes. Handy underwater breathing widget? Once in a while. ANYTHING ELSE? Not really.

Whether its a matter of having them convert wealth bonuses into force power ranks in a fixed ratio or have them literally buy their ranks in force powers with a wealth check (DC 10+desired rank or something) I leave as an exercise to those who understand d20M wealth better than I do. It even lets jedi effectively "take their cut" of mission rewards but they just go meditate for a while afterwards instead of stocking up more gear.


----------



## hobgoblin (Jul 15, 2006)

more likely then not they have a system similar to chatolic monks, only not formal but encuraged. look at how padme and anakin have to hide that they are together and so on.

their lightsaber they make themselfs as a kind of initiation rite often (luke got his first handed down to him, but buildt a new one after he lost it along with his hand).

the fighters and other gear could be supplied by the order, or by the republic.

anything that can distract them from their study of the force should be avoided. and some of it may even lead to the dark side. greed (for wealth and power), anger (towards people that want to take something way from you or hurt those you care about), fear (for loosing something or someone you care about).

by not having and avoiding anything that can lead to this, you allso have a easier time avoiding the dark side.

but then you allso have the "new way": reaching into the dark side when a extra boost is required, but with enough disipline to pull out in time.

and i dont see the problem of having to choose between being a force user or a normal class. alltho i dont know the full rules i would say that if you want to be both a ace pilot and a force user you should be alternating between classes (if possible). yes you grow slower in both but that is a normal "problem" of class based systems.


----------



## Faraer (Jul 17, 2006)

Morgenstern said:
			
		

> Jedi are plenty skillful - being (gear) poor seems to be the tradeoff they actuallty experience compared to the other archtypes of the setting. Clothes? Check. Lightsaber? Check. hyperdrive-fighter? Sometimes. Handy underwater breathing widget? Once in a while. ANYTHING ELSE? Not really.



The Order is wealthy and provides pretty much any equipment a Jedi needs. The fact that they don't use armour and big bombs is a matter of the fictional mode of _Star Wars_ and the Jedi philosophy, not that those things aren't available -- for instance, wearing armour doesn't increase your survivability in the films: it's a symbol. Overuse of technology is a morally degraded and practically inferior substitute for human traits, including spiritual discipline.

I don't know where REG got the idea that SW creators get jealous of others using their work in different media (why would that even matter?). Except when another author seriously distorts the original intent, they tend to love it.


----------



## Ranger REG (Jul 18, 2006)

Faraer said:
			
		

> I don't know where REG got the idea that SW creators get jealous of others using their work in different media (why would that even matter?). Except when another author seriously distorts the original intent, they tend to love it.



Hey, my bad. But that does beg the question, why didn't WotC take advantage of the _KOTOR_ exposure and set up a supplement for it?


----------



## The Human Target (Jul 18, 2006)

humble minion said:
			
		

> Speaking as someone who has been running a very long-term d20 Star Wars campaign since the release of the Revised Core Rulebook, I'm really, really hoping that the system is torn down and rebuilt from scratch.  Forget back-compatibility with older products - there's just too much non-functional stuff that needs fixing.  Really basic, core stuff, like Stun damage, and starship combat, and feebly token DCs on skill checks, a skill list that still reflects its dungeon-crawling origin far too heavily, and the complete imbalance between attack modifiers and defence scores, lightsaber combats being over in about 12 seconds whereas starfighter duels can take hours, and the disaster that is Force Points.
> 
> An errata document that's approaching the size of the core rulebook surely indicates that just reformatting the book and including stats for a few of the characters from Revenge of the Sith simply aren't going to cut it.  Major surgery is required.  I'm not sure to what extent the work on this book has already been done, but I'd advise the writers to go to their FLGS, but a copy of Eden's Buffy RPG, and learn how a cinematic licensed system SHOULD work.  Hell, unless this product blows me away, I'll be running my next Star Wars game using a modifed version of Buffy - assuming I run it ever again, considering how burnt out I am on the whole deal after wrestling with the lousy d20 rules for so long.
> 
> Knowing Wizards, I'd be pessimistic.  But OStephens mentioned playtesting above, and (so long as this playtesting covers characters above 10th level this time round - as the playtesting for the previous version conspicuously failed to do), for that reason, I will remain a little hopeful.




I rather agree with this.


----------



## Ranger REG (Jul 18, 2006)

The Human Target said:
			
		

> I rather agree with this.



By that logic, WotC should not have ordered a reprint of the two Force sourcebooks this summer. It would have been wasted moneywise (for the company and their consumers), except for those who are resistant of upgrading to a whole 'nother rules for _Star Wars._


----------



## Faraer (Jul 18, 2006)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> But that does beg the question, why didn't WotC take advantage of the _KOTOR_ exposure and set up a supplement for it?



Wizards fumbled a lot of potential cross-promotion. It didn't release a single book accompanying the release of Episode III, or the _Clone Wars_ micro-series. Even when Paizo ran the _Insider_ it didn't run a 'This is what the SWRPG is about' article. The _Neverwinter Nights_ tie-in anthology was cancelled.


----------



## Breakdaddy (Jul 18, 2006)

I'm pleased with the fact they are releasing a new iteration of the D20 game, but I've long since converted from D20 to Savage Worlds. I still use my D20 material as reference material, and will buy the new book regardless of whether I will go back to D20 for Star Wars or stay with Savage Worlds.


----------



## kenobi65 (Jul 19, 2006)

Faraer said:
			
		

> It didn't release a single book accompanying the release of Episode III, or the _Clone Wars_ micro-series.




Well, keep in mind that both of those occurred during the time in which WotC wasn't actively supporting the RPG...so while those were certainly missed opportunities, it wasn't merely a case of WotC deciding "hmmm, don't want to do a tie-in."  From mid-2004 until sometime next year (when the Saga Edition comes out; I've now read January and March as release dates), WotC didn't issue a *single* new SWRPG book.

On the other hand, the Minis game, which *was* being actively supported last year, released a RotS expansion at the same time that the movie was released.


----------



## thalmin (Jul 21, 2006)

*Info from the WotC 2007 January to April Catalog*

We just received the new catalog. The following is from said catalog:



> *Star Wars Roleplaying Game: Saga Edition*
> Owen K.C. Stephens and Rodney Thompson*
> 
> This new edition of the _*Star Wars* Roleplaying Game_ encapsulates all six feature films while presenting a thorough revision of the rules, making the game easier to learn while improving the overall play experience. The new 288-page core rulebook includes new character abilities and options, a streamlined skill system, a revised combat system, new feats and Force powers, a world gazetteer, statistics for key characters from all six *Star Wars* films and the Expanded Universe, and guidelines on how to use *Star Wars* Miniatures and battle maps in play.
> ...


----------



## hobgoblin (Jul 21, 2006)

*more* miniatures friendly?! ye gods...


----------



## yojimbouk (Jul 21, 2006)

hobgoblin said:
			
		

> *more* miniatures friendly?! ye gods...




Sounds like it will be a dry run for D&D4e.

I also note that it's 288 pages compared to RCR's 384.

Jim.


----------



## Jonny Nexus (Jul 21, 2006)

yojimbouk said:
			
		

> Sounds like it will be a dry run for D&D4e.




Nooooooooo! If people from the main discussion forum read that you will unleash a blizzard of 4E threads the like of which we have never before seen!

[Runs for cover]

Damn good point though.


----------



## CrusaderX (Jul 21, 2006)

hobgoblin said:
			
		

> *more* miniatures friendly?! ye gods...




Not at all surprising.  Considering how well the miniatures sell as opposed to the RPG products, I think Star Wars RPG fans were left with two options - 1) A more miniatures friendly RPG, or 2) No RPG at all.


----------



## Ruland (Jul 21, 2006)

CrusaderX said:
			
		

> Not at all surprising.  Considering how well the miniatures sell as opposed to the RPG products, I think Star Wars RPG fans were left with two options - 1) A more miniatures friendly RPG, or 2) No RPG at all.




This "more miniatures friendly" thing makes me a little bit nervous - the old passionate pen-and-paperist that I am.   

But, always look on the bright side of things: Star Wars d20 RPG gets revived. Although I really do not believe that the Saga-edition is going to be more fun than the Revised Core edition, because the latter is already a blast. But hey, since I got recently hooked on True20 as a gateway to all things d20, I will probably use it for Star Wars games as well.


----------



## wingsandsword (Jul 21, 2006)

"streamlined"

That makes me nervous.  I like the RCR a lot, I don't want to see it dumbed down or oversimplifed, and "streamlined" sounds like possible marketing-speak for both doing just that.

Making the game more miniatures friendly also makes me very wary.  The game is already incredibly minis friendly.  Short of replacing the entire combat system with the minis game, how can they really make it more minis friendly?  Now, this part might just be ad copy, and the "minis friendly" part just means they use pictures of the minis in the combat examples and are referencing the minis game as a cross-promotion, we can only hope so.


----------



## ShadowDenizen (Jul 21, 2006)

> The core rules have been revised and streamlined to make the game easier to learn and more fun to play.




Well, that I'm pleased to hear.



> This new edition of the Star Wars Roleplaying Game encapsulates all six feature films while presenting a thorough revision of the rules, making the game easier to learn while improving the overall play experience. The new 288-page core rulebook includes new character abilities and options, a streamlined skill system, a revised combat system, new feats and Force powers, a world gazetteer, statistics for key characters from all six Star Wars films and the Expanded Universe, and guidelines on how to use Star Wars Miniatures and battle maps in play.




It sounds like an AWEFUL lot of infomration to cram into one 288-page book, but time will tell, I guess.



> This new edition of the *Star Wars * Roleplaying Game is more miniatures-friendly than previous editions and includes a battle map and guidelines for using Star Wars miniatures in play.




This?
I'm _not_ so pleased about.


----------



## RodneyThompson (Jul 21, 2006)

Let's not all start panicking just yet, shall we?


----------



## Henry (Jul 21, 2006)

When people start getting upset about smaller page counts, I point to books like Grim Tales as an example of how to push a lot of good material into one small space. If they have moved something out to another rule book, it wouldn't bother me too much.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jul 21, 2006)

Why the panic over "miniatures friendly"? That's what D&D 3.5 did, and it didn't change much at all...just clarified things.

Still looking all good to me.


----------



## Ranger REG (Jul 21, 2006)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> "streamlined"
> 
> That makes me nervous.  I like the RCR a lot, I don't want to see it dumbed down or oversimplifed, and "streamlined" sounds like possible marketing-speak for both doing just that.



Heh. To dumbed down what is already a rules-heavy system to begin with -- the signature of _d20_ -- can be a good thing.

Of course, if you dumb it down too much to leave so many voids (aka rules ambiguities), then that could be a problem.


----------



## Master of the Game (Jul 22, 2006)

Yay, I 3rd edition of the same damn game within six years.  Yeah, I'm gonna rush right out and pick _that_ up.

No thanks, I'll wait until 2008 and pick up the 4th edition.


----------



## wingsandsword (Jul 22, 2006)

Moridin said:
			
		

> Let's not all start panicking just yet, shall we?




I don't want to panic, but we love the SWRPG, and we really want the new edition to be great.  Heck, I know I'm going to buy it (I can't imagine it being something I wouldn't get), but for lack of detailed information (darn NDA's) we have to read tea leaves and smoke signals to figure out what's going on.  This is the first WotC product in in a long time I've been this excited in this long before release.  

Condensing the game down in page count, while expanding the coverage of the Star Wars universe seems like a tall order.  Now, admittedly the RCR did have a lot of inefficient use of space in it, with some big graphics and full-page pictures that could easily be trimmed.  Even the OCR was 318 pages though.  Putting everything in that we're expecting and getting it down to 288 pages is going to be a masterpiece of editing and writing (or a lot of stuff is going to be left for future suppliments and only barely touched on in the Saga Edition book).

As for the minis-friendly part of the catalog entry, the minis game has been a big seller, so presumably WotC does want to sell the RPG at people who play the minis game but haven't played the RPG, so some tie-in as marketing the RPG as a more advanced or more complete Star Wars experienced instead of just being a minis combat game would be sound marketing.

I do really hope you made a great new edition we are all going to love, and we can look back in March and just laugh at our worries.  As you're able to talk about it in more detail, I'm sure we'll have tons of questions for you on what's there, and why you made the changes you did.


----------



## Kanegrundar (Jul 22, 2006)

Hmmmm....Hopefully it stays compatible to the material released after the RCR.  If this ends up being just another reboot with little new content, then I'll likely pass.  That said, I'm optimistic.  Moridin has a great passion for Star Wars and will do his damndest to make the SWRPG v3 the best yet.  Let's just wait and see.


----------



## Ranger REG (Jul 22, 2006)

Kanegrundar said:
			
		

> Hmmmm....Hopefully it stays compatible to the material released after the RCR.  If this ends up being just another reboot with little new content, then I'll likely pass.  That said, I'm optimistic.  Moridin has a great passion for Star Wars and will do his damndest to make the SWRPG v3 the best yet.  Let's just wait and see.



Then you better tell them what should stay sacred cow.

Me? I'm hoping that they put out a very helpful conversion guideline for the older _SW d20_ products. Of course, if they're going to revise and update the old material, then such a conversion document is not necessary.


----------



## Kanegrundar (Jul 22, 2006)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Then you better tell them what should stay sacred cow.
> 
> Me? I'm hoping that they put out a very helpful conversion guideline for the older _SW d20_ products. Of course, if they're going to revise and update the old material, then such a conversion document is not necessary.



 I doubt it would make much difference what I thought.  :shrug:  But here goes:
All in all I like the system as written in the RCR.  I wouldn't mind a clean up in the 
disparity between attack and defense bonuses and another tweak to the starship combat rules.  Beyond that, I really enjoyed it.

Beyond that, good conversion guidelines for old products is a must.


----------



## w_earle_wheeler (Jul 22, 2006)

Master of the Game said:
			
		

> Yay, I 3rd edition of the same damn game within six years.  Yeah, I'm gonna rush right out and pick _that_ up.
> 
> No thanks, I'll wait until 2008 and pick up the 4th edition.




I couldn't help but think the same thing.


----------



## wingsandsword (Jul 22, 2006)

w_earle_wheeler said:
			
		

> I couldn't help but think the same thing.




The Revised Core Rules of Star Wars were essentially an Episode II tie-in, it was released within a few days of Episode II and covered Episode II quite heavily compared to the other 4 movies out at the time.  The Original Core Rules gave similar disproportionate coverage to Episode I.

Did you only want new editions once a decade or so like AD&D was, or no new editions ever again?  It is not a typical RPG, it is a licensed RPG, one with a highly dynamic setting that is always expanding, and especially when the core of the setting (the 6 movies) weren't even all out yet when the last edition of the core rules was released.

If it were a licensed RPG for a popular Sci-Fi TV show (let's say they release a Battlestar Galactica RPG now, or if the Stargate SG-1 RPG was still in production), and then 4 or 5 years later when the show ends they want to produce a new edition to encompass all of the new material revealed in the canon of the source into the core of the game, would you still be complaining that new editions are only a few years apart?

If WotC didn't release a new edition of the core rules, and went back to publishing the RCR and making the Star Wars RPG, you'd get plenty of new players confused as to why the book doesn't cover anything about the events of Episode III, anything about the Legacy era, or the Tales of the Jedi/Old Republic eras.  Somebody who has just seen Episode III on DVD and played KotoR I and II and picks up the RCR will find it a little lacking in what he's expecting.

Releasing a new edition of the core rules under these circumstances, almost 5 years after the last edition (May 2002 to March 2007) is a perfectly sound move.  Around five years between editions is pretty good for many non-D&D RPG's (Gamma World and original World of Darkness series come to mind).


----------



## Ranger REG (Jul 22, 2006)

That's the way with licensed products. As long as the franchise keep producing new episodes or films, licensed products like RPG have to keep up with incorporating material for the fans.


----------



## w_earle_wheeler (Jul 23, 2006)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> That's the way with licensed products. As long as the franchise keep producing new episodes or films, licensed products like RPG have to keep up with incorporating material for the fans.




Incorporating new material (ie, updating the campaign background material) is fine. It's the alterations to the rules that cause problems. 

A group of players with mixed rulebooks causes problems. Additional fluff text doesn't make things difficult, but changes in classes and rules over the course of two (and now, possibly three) rulebooks does. 

An example would be trying to play a Wizard using the 3.0 PHB in a 3.5 PHB game. It's basically the same game, but with hundreds of very small changes that add up to one large incompatability issue (if you're playing RAW that is... if you're looser with the rules, then it isn't as much of an issue).

I'm glad to see that the Star Wars RPG is still alive, and I will reseve further comments until I see how compatible the new revision is with the previous revision.


----------



## Ranger REG (Jul 24, 2006)

w_earle_wheeler said:
			
		

> Incorporating new material (ie, updating the campaign background material) is fine. It's the alterations to the rules that cause problems.



Well, sometimes you need to alter the rules in order to incorporate the new material. Those writers and producers of the films and upcoming TV series are not going to consider the RPG gamebook as bible. You're not going to hear in a typical writers' staff meeting, "We can't put that element in the episode because it will contradict the RPG rules."


----------



## Votan (Jul 24, 2006)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Well, sometimes you need to alter the rules in order to incorporate the new material. Those writers and producers of the films and upcoming TV series are not going to consider the RPG gamebook as bible. You're not going to hear in a typical writers' staff meeting, "We can't put that element in the episode because it will contradict the RPG rules."




Yes.  For example, post Revenge of the Sith it is getting extremely difficult to award dark force points for usin g force push on a living being.  Because either every major good jedi in the canon is picking up a bunch of these in routine operations or else things work differently than in the RCR.


----------



## hobgoblin (Jul 24, 2006)

handing out dark side points for using force push on people? i would think that it would be based on intent. in the movies the jedi seems to use it to disable and distract, not directly maim or kill. sure, you would get some scratches and bruises, and maybe a broken limb if your realy unlucky, but its not a dark side type attack.

a dark sider would rather send something large and sharp at the person then simply push him back a bit. unless the person was within range of a edge or some sharp and pointy objects, then he would push him towards those.

intent have as much to say as the act itself when it comes to the dark side.


----------



## wingsandsword (Jul 24, 2006)

hobgoblin said:
			
		

> handing out dark side points for using force push on people? i would think that it would be based on intent. in the movies the jedi seems to use it to disable and distract, not directly maim or kill. sure, you would get some scratches and bruises, and maybe a broken limb if your realy unlucky, but its not a dark side type attack.
> 
> a dark sider would rather send something large and sharp at the person then simply push him back a bit. unless the person was within range of a edge or some sharp and pointy objects, then he would push him towards those.
> 
> intent have as much to say as the act itself when it comes to the dark side.



I think making force push, or similar powers, grant a Dark Side Point when used is rooted in Yoda's teachings in Episode V: "A Jedi uses the Force for Knowledge and Defense, never for Attack".  We see Palpatine and Vader crush windpipes and throw lightning.  

We very rarely seee Jedi use the Force to directly attack, Qui-Gon throwing Battle Droids aside and Yoda quickly smacking down two Royal Guard and duelling Palpatine with force-thrown objects being the big examples.  Thus, Jedi rarely do it, probably because it's way too easy to cross over to the Dark Side if you get used to using it to attack, and Yoda was giving a stern warning to Luke.  Perhaps with more years of training Yoda would have explained the exceptions to his warning, but as a general rule, attacking with the Force is a Dark Side action.

The Jedi Counselling column on the WotC site had a good way to model this, an optional rule that every time a character performs an act that would gather a Dark Side Point, they have to make a Will save to avoid the point, with the difficulty rising sharply depending on the nature of the act.  Thus, a Jedi Master might be able to get away with throwing two guardsmen around with the Force and engaging in an epic duel with a Sith Master which involves telekinetic combat, while a brash and angry Jedi apprentice who is already being actively tempted by the Dark Side like Luke would likely get a DSP for force-choking a pair of Gammorean guards when other ways to get by them would have been more appropriate.


----------



## hobgoblin (Jul 24, 2006)

question then, what is an attack? if i prevent my enemy from attacking me by tripping them over and pushing them back using force push, is that an attack, or a pre-emptive defense?

(hmm, pre-emptive defense, _sounds like something that we don't want to make political_. poor choice of words i guess).

the more i think about it, the more it seems that the teaching of the jedi have much in common with wiccan magic...

something about it being dangerus to use magic with a mind full of negative emotions.


----------



## DethStryke (Jul 30, 2006)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> The Revised Core Rules of Star Wars were essentially an Episode II tie-in, it was released within a few days of Episode II and covered Episode II quite heavily compared to the other 4 movies out at the time.  The Original Core Rules gave similar disproportionate coverage to Episode I.



While I think that this was true to an extent, I think the way you are presenting it is out of context and exaggerated. The vehicle/starship rules re-write, for instance, was a great improvement and had nothing really to do with Ep II... it was simply fixing a clunky, uncoordinated and difficult to use in a practical sense system with a more streamlined and all around better one. Not to mention the including of droid rules, which was nice, and the format of the skills which made them much faster and streamlined for reference. The list goes on, but that's a big change already. You're talking about three full chapters of the book right there!

It's assumed that they will support major events like the new Star Wars movies were (Whether they were *worth* that acclaim, is a totally different rant entirely...). The movies are huge marketing drives, and ANY product with the franchise name is going to be cross-marketed for sales synergy. That's business. But I personally hate Eps. 1-3, and run a rebellion-based game myself. Very little of D20 books are pure Ep. 1-2 from either edition (1 only for the first, of course, and so on). I.e., information that can't be used or isn't still true for the span of ep. 4-6.

As a whole, there were plenty of changes and re-writes on the system as a whole that the Revised system made good sense. The way I see it, they had more than enough reason to make the Revised system already - the new movie and the chance to gain the entire budget of the new Star Wars movie AND the movie's marketing campaign as a pseudo budget for its own marketing is a business strategy that also makes good sense. That's the whole point of cross-marketing and creating brand synergy in the first place. 

But it is *not* the whole reason for the Revised Edition, and to say that it was just sounds like sour grapes with no real substance behind the claim.


----------



## DethStryke (Jul 30, 2006)

hobgoblin said:
			
		

> question then, what is an attack? if i prevent my enemy from attacking me by tripping them over and pushing them back using force push, is that an attack, or a pre-emptive defense?
> 
> (hmm, pre-emptive defense, _sounds like something that we don't want to make political_. poor choice of words i guess).
> 
> ...



I think the debate for what is or is not worthy of a DSP is strictly a table-by-table discussion that should happen with just your group and remain in that context. My group has a few characters that courting the Dark Side, but I'm rather strict in the Good/Bad diacotomy and have a particular interest in Moral & Civic topics... so this comes up a fair amount in my group. That being said, I tend to fall back on the concept that using the skill in question has to directly effect (in an either targeted or as a direct result of sort of way) a living being (droids don't count, etc.) to warrent a Dark Side point possibility, and even that is determined in a case by case situation.

It's just not something you can make rules for easily, nor is it something you can discuss objectively without it being in realms that are typically avoided for a reason (that's why we have the Forum rules. ).

I think the current rules for DSPs, if you include the Will Save as an "Alternate", is the best one could expect for this kind of topic.


----------



## Plane Sailing (Jul 31, 2006)

thalmin said:
			
		

> presenting a thorough revision of the rules




Against my expectations, but I think this could be a good think if it is a really thorough overhaul.

I personally liked the original SWd20 better than the RCR for many things (with only a few exceptions like DR).

I would love a system which 'out of the box' reflected the films better - light sabre duels like fencing matches, force push which knocks over and takes out robots reliably, seeing with the blast visor down and blocking + reflecting blaster bolts.

Some of these things can be sorta done with the RCR, more so with many house rules, but I'd love to see an Out of Box treatment which made these easier and simpler, so it was easier for our games to reflect the films.

(caveat: I have no knowledge or interest in 'expanded universe' novels and comics, I'd be as happy to not see *anything* based on them... not that I expect that will be the case though!)

Cheers


----------



## Ranger REG (Jul 31, 2006)

Master of the Game said:
			
		

> No thanks, I'll wait until 2008 and pick up the 4th edition.



And another edition at 2012, when the two new _Star Wars_ TV series (one animated and one live-action, in addition to _Clone Wars_) have entered into their third and second seasons respectively, and fans want new material that may conflict with the 4th edition rules to be incorporated and released for instant playtime.

As long as the franchise keep making new episodes, chances are the stories will break one or two gaming rules.  *smirks*


----------



## LostSoul (Aug 1, 2006)

How did I miss this?

Really cool, I'm glad to see that people still want to play Star Wars.  I _might_ buy the game, if only for the pretty pictures; I was really disappointed with the d20 version.  To each their own.

I'm writing up my own system, based on how *I* played d6, but it's becoming it's own beast.  I don't even have any special rules for the Force or the Dark Side!  Although it seems like it will work for Jedi just fine.  It seems like it will really tempt the good guys.

Anyway, the focus is on what I really enjoyed in the movies and (especially) playing Star Wars - relationships between characters.  I think I might call it "A Boy, a Girl, and a Galaxy" after a line from one of the early TV commercials.  (I think I got that line right.)

Well, that had nothing to do with the rest of the thread.  I'm just excited and too hot to sleep.


----------



## Ranger REG (Aug 1, 2006)

LostSoul said:
			
		

> How did I miss this?
> 
> Really cool, I'm glad to see that people still want to play Star Wars.  I _might_ buy the game, if only for the pretty pictures; I was really disappointed with the d20 version.  To each their own.
> 
> I'm writing up my own system, based on how *I* played d6, but it's becoming it's own beast.



Dude, I retired my _d6_ buckets (plural) a long time ago. Don't really want to go back to them nightmare. I'm cool with _d20_ now.

I think they edited that line. "A Whiny Boy. A Naive Girl. And a Galaxy on Poo."


----------



## LostSoul (Aug 1, 2006)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Dude, I retired my _d6_ buckets (plural) a long time ago. Don't really want to go back to them nightmare. I'm cool with _d20_ now.
> 
> I think they edited that line. "A Whiny Boy. A Naive Girl. And a Galaxy on Poo."




I should have qualified my whine about d20.  It's just not for me.  (I always liked rolling buckets!  To each his own, eh?  )  I still think it's really cool that a new version is coming out.

They must have edited that line around the same time Greedo shot first.


----------



## Donovan Morningfire (Aug 1, 2006)

LostSoul said:
			
		

> I still think it's really cool that a new version is coming out.



Well, it's still going to be a d20 game, as d20 is WotC's big flagship system, and at this point I'm not sure WotC wants to alienate the SWd20 fan-base by throwing out an entirely new system, and thus invalidating all the sourcebooks that we've bought prior.  They can get away with that (to an extent) with D&D due to the nature of that particular beastie.

I figure they're going to incorporate the things they learned from d20 Modern and D&D 3.5e.  The line about streamlined skills has got me thinking that they might simply the Craft, Entertain/Perform, and Knowledge skills to only have about half-a-dozen specializations instead of the infinite possiblities they currently have.  They might also use the "Unlearn what you have learned" optional rule for Force skills from Jedi Counseling (#65 I think it was) to further streamline the skill system.

But by the end of the day, it's still going to be a d20-based game.


----------



## LostSoul (Aug 1, 2006)

Donovan Morningfire said:
			
		

> But by the end of the day, it's still going to be a d20-based game.




That's cool with me.  I think it would not be a good idea if it wasn't a d20 game.  It's just that d20 and Star Wars don't mix for me, and that's cool too.

I'm interested in the game coming out because more people will be playing Star Wars, and I like talking about those games, no matter what the system is.


----------



## Plane Sailing (Aug 2, 2006)

Donovan Morningfire said:
			
		

> Well, it's still going to be a d20 game, as d20 is WotC's big flagship system, and at this point I'm not sure WotC wants to alienate the SWd20 fan-base by throwing out an entirely new system, and thus invalidating all the sourcebooks that we've bought prior.  They can get away with that (to an extent) with D&D due to the nature of that particular beastie.




Don't forget the scale of the changes between OCR and RCR though. I'd argue that they were a greater change than there was between the 3.0 and 3.5 revision of D&D, for instance.

e.g. armour as DR, introducing AoO, wholesale class feature changes, droid/vehicle/spacecraft changes just off the top of my head.

Precedent suggests that they are happy with making some pretty sweeping changes in SWd20 rules when they revise them...

Cheers


----------



## Donovan Morningfire (Aug 2, 2006)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> Don't forget the scale of the changes between OCR and RCR though. I'd argue that they were a greater change than there was between the 3.0 and 3.5 revision of D&D, for instance.
> 
> e.g. armour as DR, introducing AoO, wholesale class feature changes, droid/vehicle/spacecraft changes just off the top of my head.
> 
> ...



Believe me, I can't forget the degree of change between OCR and RCR, as I was in the midst of running a RotE-era campaign, and nearly gave myself fits in converting some of my NPC baddies using the revamped classes.

What I was referring to was my interpretation of LostSoul's comments about new version and his prior grievance about the d20 system.

Given what we've seen in Episode III, as well as details that have shown up on the May '06 version of the RCR errata, I'd be greatly surprised if there weren't some sweeping changes.  (Heck, look at my remarks regarding "streamlined skills".)


----------



## nobodez (Aug 2, 2006)

Donovan Morningfire said:
			
		

> I figure they're going to incorporate the things they learned from d20 Modern and D&D 3.5e.  The line about streamlined skills has got me thinking that they might simply the Craft, Entertain/Perform, and Knowledge skills to only have about half-a-dozen specializations instead of the infinite possiblities they currently have.  They might also use the "Unlearn what you have learned" optional rule for Force skills from Jedi Counseling (#65 I think it was) to further streamline the skill system.
> 
> But by the end of the day, it's still going to be a d20-based game.




If they integrate the d20 Modern craft/knowledge/perform-enterain rules, I'll be really happy. Of course, I'd be even more happy if they threw in Wealth, but i know that's about as likely as a licensed Star Wars vs. Star Trek RPG.

I do hope they use the v.3.5 rules for Two Weapon fighting, but either keep the current weapon group rules, or use the d20 Modern weapon proficiency rules (though it'd work better not to change).

As to combat, it'd be great if they could use the Spycraft chase rules, but since it's not an OGL book, it's probably not going to happen.


----------



## Ranger REG (Aug 3, 2006)

nobodez said:
			
		

> If they integrate the d20 Modern craft/knowledge/perform-enterain rules, I'll be really happy. Of course, I'd be even more happy if they threw in Wealth, but i know that's about as likely as a licensed Star Wars vs. Star Trek RPG.
> 
> I do hope they use the v.3.5 rules for Two Weapon fighting, but either keep the current weapon group rules, or use the d20 Modern weapon proficiency rules (though it'd work better not to change).
> 
> As to combat, it'd be great if they could use the Spycraft chase rules, but since it's not an OGL book, it's probably not going to happen.



Meh. Even if they don't, I'll stick to the personal changes to my rules already.


----------



## Faraer (Aug 4, 2006)

nobodez said:
			
		

> Of course, I'd be even more happy if they threw in Wealth, but i know that's about as likely as a licensed Star Wars vs. Star Trek RPG.



A good abstract measure of wealth would certainly be more suited to _Star Wars_ than accounting for credit totals -- something that has no reality in the _Star Wars_ movies or EU and is only in the game as a D&D and RPG hangover.


----------



## HeapThaumaturgist (Aug 4, 2006)

I've used Wealth for SWRPG games in the past and it worked out wonderfully.  

It really does go well with the setting and its feeling, I think.

--fje


----------



## nobodez (Aug 4, 2006)

Faraer said:
			
		

> A good abstract measure of wealth would certainly be more suited to _Star Wars_ than accounting for credit totals -- something that has no reality in the _Star Wars_ movies or EU and is only in the game as a D&D and RPG hangover.




Yeah, plus, they wouldn't need all the rules for loaning money either, since it's all a part of the wealth bonus. But, then again, credits have been a part of SW role playing since the d6 system, you can't mess with _tradition_.


----------



## LostSoul (Aug 4, 2006)

nobodez said:
			
		

> Yeah, plus, they wouldn't need all the rules for loaning money either, since it's all a part of the wealth bonus. But, then again, credits have been a part of SW role playing since the d6 system, you can't mess with _tradition_.




I used a wealth system in d6.


----------



## wingsandsword (Aug 4, 2006)

Mechanically, one thing I could see needing to be done with the Wealth system in d20 Star Wars is how to treat the Resource Access class feature (Nobles, Dark Lords of the Sith, Imperial Inquisitors, Imperial Moffs and I think Black Sun Vigo's get it).  

Since it essentially gives you a guaranteed substantial income, even at 0 credits you can still make some calls and get stuff, perhaps borrowing a bit of the wording from the "Heir" occupation in d20 Future might be appropriate, that essentially your wealth bonus cannot drop below a certain amount, like +2 or +3, and gaining other classes that have this ability essentiallly grant a +1 to this cap (like a Noble who becomes an Imperial Moff).


----------



## kenobi65 (Aug 4, 2006)

Faraer said:
			
		

> A good abstract measure of wealth would certainly be more suited to _Star Wars_ than accounting for credit totals -- something that has no reality in the _Star Wars_ movies or EU and is only in the game as a D&D and RPG hangover.




Credits are *extremely* relevant in the Star Wars movies, but only if you're trying to get your a** off of Tatooine.  Otherwise, yeah, they never come up.


----------



## DethStryke (Aug 4, 2006)

kenobi65 said:
			
		

> Credits are *extremely* relevant in the Star Wars movies, but only if you're trying to get your a** off of Tatooine.  Otherwise, yeah, they never come up.



You forgot for paying off Jabba the Hutt. 

Of course, he was stacking all that loot onto the falcon, but never *paid* the slug. Hmmm...


----------

