# Are lead minis dangerous?



## buzz (Mar 24, 2004)

I've been working on a Web site that's a repository of informaiton on lead poisoning, which got me thinking. I have a fair number of old Grenadier and Ral Partha minis that I've never painted, and which I believe are lead (we're talking c.1982 here). Are they hazardous? Should I be concerned?


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## Altalazar (Mar 24, 2004)

Well, you don't want to ingest any lead.  I'm not sure of the exact dangers.  One thing that is probably true is that if they are painted and then sealed, there is less danger - since the surface is covered and so there is less chance of lead flakes coming off.  I wonder, though, what the exact dangers are.  You certainly don't want to eat any of them...


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## diaglo (Mar 24, 2004)

although, i love my minis. truth be told...lead is bad for you. visit my website:

http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/publications/books/plpyc/chapter3.htm


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## James Heard (Mar 24, 2004)

diaglo said:
			
		

> although, i love my minis. truth be told...lead is bad for you. visit my website:
> 
> http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/publications/books/plpyc/chapter3.htm




So I should probably get rid of those M&M lead minis, and the giant lead banana-dragon miniature. Gotcha. Don't eat minis. What was that kids? Don't eat minis.

Seriously, you shouldn't eat any sort of minis. I think those swords and spears and horns would be a tip off.


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## diaglo (Mar 24, 2004)

James Heard said:
			
		

> So I should probably get rid of those M&M lead minis, and the giant lead banana-dragon miniature. Gotcha. Don't eat minis. What was that kids? Don't eat minis.
> 
> Seriously, you shouldn't eat any sort of minis. I think those swords and spears and horns would be a tip off.





well, even adults...problem with the minis is Flashing. those little bits you scrape off end up somewhere. 

same with those of us who smelted our own...yes, they sold kits back in the day to make your own minis. little bars of lead and away you went.


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## Henry (Mar 24, 2004)

diaglo said:
			
		

> although, i love my minis. truth be told...lead is bad for you. visit my website:
> 
> http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/publications/books/plpyc/chapter3.htm





With all of that going on, it's a wonder I'm not dead. 

So, sucking on unpainted lead miniatures is right out, as is melting them down and getting shot with them. 

Seriously, the most common precaution it seems, if you want to err on the side of caution, is to NOT eat during a game if you are going to be using your lead mini's, and remember to wash your hands thoroughly after handling them. And don't assume that just because they are painted that they are safer.

Sound about right?


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## buzz (Mar 24, 2004)

diaglo said:
			
		

> although, i love my minis. truth be told...lead is bad for you. visit my website:
> 
> http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/publications/books/plpyc/chapter3.htm



You work for the CDC?   



Even though I never really use them, I'd kind of hate to part with my classic minis. Still, I'll probably be having kids in the next few years and, even painted and sealed, I wonder if it's a good idea to have them around at all. I guess it would be an excuse to buy new spiffy Reaper minis, though...


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## Nifft (Mar 24, 2004)

If thrown with sufficient force, they can be dangerous. But so can dice.

Personally, I'm a huge fan of the new plastic minis, because I can drop stuff on them without giving my players heart attacks.

 -- N, none too careful


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## diaglo (Mar 24, 2004)

Henry said:
			
		

> Sound about right?





yep, wash your hands just like your momma used to tell you. you don't know where that mini has been.

warm soap and water. dry them off with a clean towel.

care should be taken with the laundry. don't combine loads if you want to be real safe. so the stuff you wore to work on your minis and the towels you use to dry yourself...well use them for minis only.


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## Altalazar (Mar 24, 2004)

Henry said:
			
		

> With all of that going on, it's a wonder I'm not dead.
> 
> So, sucking on unpainted lead miniatures is right out, as is melting them down and getting shot with them.
> 
> ...




I always wash my hands after handling them, especially unpainted.  
But I do bet that the painted ones are somewhat safer - less flaking if they are sealed.  (Well, unless you use lead-based paint... ok, not bloody likely).


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## diaglo (Mar 24, 2004)

buzz said:
			
		

> You work for the CDC?
> 
> 
> 
> Even though I never really use them, I'd kind of hate to part with my classic minis. Still, I'll probably be having kids in the next few years and, even painted and sealed, I wonder if it's a good idea to have them around at all. I guess it would be an excuse to buy new spiffy Reaper minis, though...





yes, i am the federal government.   

i've got over 14000 minis...and most of them are lead.

i'm not giving them up.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Mar 24, 2004)

Aw, come on!  All this talk was just a conspiracy to get people to repaint and replumb their houses, buy new venetian blinds and buy new minis.  Lead isn't really bad for you. So you might end up with a little brain damage.  For many gamers that can be a good thing!

Seriously though, its not too big a deal if you are careful and if you don't have young kids.  Is still have a few but I no longer use them and they are put away where my kids cannot get to them.  I really only keep them for nostalgia purposes.


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## Henry (Mar 24, 2004)

HERE's a good question... let's say you wanted to dispose of your lead miniatures (let's say they are damaged, bent, or just of little use) - where would you dispose of such? Are there recycling facilities for lead disposal? Or would you be better asking at locales that dispose of lead acid batteries and the like?


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## omnimpotent (Mar 24, 2004)

You won't stop me from licking the lucky bugbear unless you pry it from my cold, dead hands!  

Which shouldn't be long now, what with all the lead and all.

And don't be fooled, the new pewter minis aren't for human consumption either.  Stick to Mage Knight and Heroclix, which are easier on your teeth, too.


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## jgsugden (Mar 24, 2004)

omnimpotent said:
			
		

> And don't be fooled, the new pewter minis aren't for human consumption either.  Stick to Mage Knight and Heroclix, which are easier on your teeth, too.



I actually found that the new D&D Miniatures (after proper shredding) really add a lot of body to meatloaf.

What the heck else was I going to do with all those extra commons ...


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## physics_ninja (Mar 24, 2004)

Henry said:
			
		

> HERE's a good question... let's say you wanted to dispose of your lead miniatures (let's say they are damaged, bent, or just of little use) - where would you dispose of such?




Try a local gun club or shooting range.  I'm sure that there are plenty of people who would be happy to have free lead for melting down into bullets.  Especially if there are into black powder firearms.

I don't know how they would view painted lead, though.


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## Brown Jenkin (Mar 24, 2004)

jgsugden said:
			
		

> I actually found that the new D&D Miniatures (after proper shredding) really add a lot of body to meatloaf.
> 
> What the heck else was I going to do with all those extra commons ...




So we shouldn't eat the lead ones but eating the plastic ones is ok. Good to know. 

-----

As for people washing there hands after handling miniatures you have got to be kidding. These are the same people you can't get to shower more than once a week. Plus what's a little more brain damage anyways, I know I have killed millions of brain cells already through a variety of  means why not a few more.


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## D'karr (Mar 24, 2004)

physics_ninja said:
			
		

> Try a local gun club or shooting range. I'm sure that there are plenty of people who would be happy to have free lead for melting down into bullets. Especially if there are into black powder firearms.
> 
> I don't know how they would view painted lead, though.



When you melt the miniature the paint comes off rather easily.  All impurities are usually strained from the lead at that time.


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## Salad Shooter (Mar 24, 2004)

Henry said:
			
		

> HERE's a good question... let's say you wanted to dispose of your lead miniatures (let's say they are damaged, bent, or just of little use) - where would you dispose of such? Are there recycling facilities for lead disposal? Or would you be better asking at locales that dispose of lead acid batteries and the like?




Sell em on ebay, make some of your money back, and make some other schmuck deal with the lead. Of course..that's not exactly the nicest thing to do to someone...but hey, we live in a capitalist society, and if you can't beat em, join em!


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## sluggo the sleazebag (Mar 24, 2004)

The dangerous combination of whiskey and lead drinking utensils was a surprisingly common occurence hundreds of years ago. The effect was nearly (or apparently) lethal, however, as the person drinking from these cups would often lapse into coma, appearing to have died to those around him. The coma would last a couple of days (or longer), after which the person would snap awake, as if from a dream. Of course, this occasionally happened during the person's funeral, hence the phrase, "having a wake."


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## buzz (Mar 24, 2004)

That settles it; they're goin' on ebay. I've owned most of them for 20 years now, and I still haven't painted them. Nostalgia be danged!


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## diaglo (Mar 24, 2004)

buzz said:
			
		

> That settles it; they're goin' on ebay. I've owned most of them for 20 years now, and I still haven't painted them. Nostalgia be danged!





Attaboy.

just let me know when you post them. i've got a hankering to add to my collection.


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## Tewligan (Mar 24, 2004)

omnimpotent said:
			
		

> You won't stop me from licking the lucky bugbear unless you pry it from my cold, dead hands!



IYKWIMAITYD


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## sawbones (Mar 24, 2004)

*the reality of lead*

Lead salts are highly toxic as they are readily absorbed, however elemental lead is not readily absorbed, indeed, one could eat some minis and not be in real danger (although the pokey bits may make for some painful bowel movements.)

The reason lead paint was so toxic is that the pigments (especially in the yellow and red colours) were lead salts. 

In plumbing, lead wouldn't have been an issue if pure water ran in the pipes, but a variety of mineral salts (especialy chlorides in todays water) react to produce lead salts in the drinking water.

Basically, your lead minis will not kill you unless you choose to melt them down and produce a projectile designed for discharge at high velocity.

Grant Kinsley MD


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## sawbones (Mar 24, 2004)

I should add, chronic ingestion of lead would be an issue, as the stomach acids and lead would provide a source of lead salts. But, not enough lead would be absorbed from a one time ingestion of lead.

Now anyone worried about lead poisoning, look for a grey blue line on your gums just above and below your teeth, that's a tell-tale sign.

Of course, there was this kid I saw at work once who thought that chewing on lead pellets was fun.....

Grant Kinsley MD


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## diaglo (Mar 25, 2004)

sawbones said:
			
		

> I should add, chronic ingestion of lead would be an issue, as the stomach acids and lead would provide a source of lead salts. But, not enough lead would be absorbed from a one time ingestion of lead.
> 
> Now anyone worried about lead poisoning, look for a grey blue line on your gums just above and below your teeth, that's a tell-tale sign.
> 
> ...




don't forget alot of minis guys don't wear gloves...

salt from sweaty, greasy hands can and will affect the lead.

if you have ever painted a mini in detail you may know how much sweat goes into the paint job. good lighting and nerves will cause you to drip on your mini....believe me.


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## frankthedm (Mar 25, 2004)

Lead dangers are over-rated to protect human larva. Lead minis are plenty safe to paint and use provided they have not entered the "lead rot" stage from being unsealed and mistreated for decades.


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## Dirigible (Mar 25, 2004)

Plus, don't they use 'whitemetal' nowadays? Or is that just Citadel?


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## Whisper72 (Mar 25, 2004)

Hmmm... when they animate and attack you the lead miniatures can be pretty dangerous. Or am I the only one here who has had that trouble before??


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## diaglo (Mar 25, 2004)

Dirigible said:
			
		

> Plus, don't they use 'whitemetal' nowadays? Or is that just Citadel?





most of the companies stopped using lead in 1993. but some small mom&pop ones continued for a little while longer before going belly up.

edit: typo.


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## Henry (Mar 25, 2004)

sawbones said:
			
		

> Lead salts are highly toxic as they are readily absorbed, however elemental lead is not readily absorbed...
> 
> (SNIP)
> 
> Grant Kinsley MD




And THIS is why I love this place. It's better than the frikkin' Internet. 

Well, you know what I mean. 

Thanks, Sawbones!


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## tetsujin28 (Mar 25, 2004)

buzz said:
			
		

> I've been working on a Web site that's a repository of informaiton on lead poisoning, which got me thinking. I have a fair number of old Grenadier and Ral Partha minis that I've never painted, and which I believe are lead (we're talking c.1982 here). Are they hazardous? Should I be concerned?



If you eat them? Yes. If you're a young child? Yes. Otherwise, wash your hands thoroughly after handling, don't make any pottery glazes out of them, and try to avoid inhaling any lead dust if you use a dremel for modifications.


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## buzz (Mar 25, 2004)

So, assuming I get around to painting them, I should wear gloves and use a respirator, and then make sure that I and my group wash our hands after every game where we use them.

I'm still leaning towards selling them.


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## tetsujin28 (Mar 25, 2004)

buzz said:
			
		

> So, assuming I get around to painting them, I should wear gloves and use a respirator, and then make sure that I and my group wash our hands after every game where we use them.
> 
> I'm still leaning towards selling them.



Once they're painted, they're perfectly safe. And I've never worn gloves whilst painting. I have used just a paper disposable mask (like the kind you'd use whilst operating a saw or painting) if I use my dremel, just to avoid inhaling dust.


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## sawbones (Mar 26, 2004)

buzz said:
			
		

> So, assuming I get around to painting them, I should wear gloves and use a respirator, and then make sure that I and my group wash our hands after every game where we use them.
> 
> I'm still leaning towards selling them.





Again the amount of lead salts that would be produced and absorbed in the routine handling/painting and sanding of lead based miniatures would be insignificant. Enjoy your minis, paint away.

Grant Kinsley MD


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## pogre (Mar 26, 2004)

sawbones said:
			
		

> Again the amount of lead salts that would be produced and absorbed in the routine handling/painting and sanding of lead based miniatures would be insignificant. Enjoy your minis, paint away.
> 
> Grant Kinsley MD




This is nonsense of course - your old lead minis are *very* dangerous!

The best thing to do is ship them to me so I can take care of the problem for you.

thinking only of your health...


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## Len (Mar 26, 2004)

pogre said:
			
		

> This is nonsense of course - your old lead minis are *very* dangerous!



Darn right! I've seen a couple of lead minis tear through a whole herd of plastic WoTC goblins.


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## thalmin (Mar 26, 2004)

diaglo said:
			
		

> most of the companies stopped using lead in 1983. but some small mom&pop ones continued for a little while longer before going belly up.



Wasn't it closer to '93? The big move to "pewter" was at just about the same time that Magic hit.


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## pogre (Mar 26, 2004)

thalmin said:
			
		

> Wasn't it closer to '93? The big move to "pewter" was at just about the same time that Magic hit.




That matches my memory as well. I vaguely remember something about a suit or statute from New York being the catalyst. Ral Partha renamed their pewter something ridiculous that escapes me just now.


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## Dirigible (Mar 26, 2004)

I think we're neglecting the dangers of plastic minis. Anyone got the generic regimental Citadel goblins from the 'Eltharion vs Grom the Paunch' edition of Warhammer? Those lil dues were _razor_ sharp...


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## thalmin (Mar 26, 2004)

pogre said:
			
		

> That matches my memory as well. I vaguely remember something about a suit or statute from New York being the catalyst. Ral Partha renamed their pewter something ridiculous that escapes me just now.



It was one of many. During the height of the lead scare, various states (and cities) were coming up with statutes or laws to ban lead miniatures. Ral Partha and other minis companies fought, and won, every challenge. However the industry couldn't afford to keep fighting, the court costs and legal fees were too high. Thus the change by most U.S. companies to the more expensive "Ralidium" or whatever they chose to call their "pewter" figures.
Intestingly enough, the states did not try banning leaded crystal glasses or decanters. (By the way, real pewter usually contains a fair amount of lead. The "pewter" used in todays minis is lead free. Eating with pewter plates or utensils, or drinking from leaded crystal glasses or decanters, actually IS dangerous. Any foods or drink that are even slightly acidic, like tomatoes or wine, leach some lead into your food.)


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## diaglo (Mar 26, 2004)

pogre said:
			
		

> This is nonsense of course - your old lead minis are *very* dangerous!
> 
> The best thing to do is ship them to me so I can take care of the problem for you.
> 
> thinking only of your health...





that was my line....go back to my original post in this thread.


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## diaglo (Mar 26, 2004)

thalmin said:
			
		

> Wasn't it closer to '93? The big move to "pewter" was at just about the same time that Magic hit.





Oops... i thought i did type 93.


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## diaglo (Mar 26, 2004)

sawbones said:
			
		

> Again the amount of lead salts that would be produced and absorbed in the routine handling/painting and sanding of lead based miniatures would be insignificant. Enjoy your minis, paint away.
> 
> Grant Kinsley MD





*sawbones* is right in truth. but the whole worst case scenario always makes people err on the side of caution when giving advice on subject's like this one.

you will note on the CDC link i posted about the dangers of lead poisoning it does mention Hobbyists.


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## Uller (Mar 26, 2004)

Lead minis aren't a danger to gamers.  The real threat is products that are produced using dihydrogen monoxide.   I hear Mt. Dew contains extremely high levels of the stuff...

http://www.dhmo.org/

 

The city of Aliso Viejo, Calif is on the cutting edge of this fight.  They attempted to ban this deadly substance, but unfortunately the bill was killed by industry insiders...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4534017/


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## Uller (Mar 26, 2004)

diaglo said:
			
		

> *sawbones* is right in truth. but the whole worst case scenario always makes people err on the side of caution when giving advice on subject's like this one.
> 
> you will note on the CDC link i posted about the dangers of lead poisoning it does mention Hobbyists.




Maybe.  But when this advice is leading people to toss collections of beloved minis and/or handling them like they're made with plutonium then...well...we're not supposed to get political here.  All I'll say is there is probably a significantly greater chance of kids being harmed by your exacto knife, your dremel tool or accidently ingesting the paints you use than of being harmed directly by your lead figures (unless they choke on them...they're certainly small enough to be a serious choking hazzard).

On the record, I don't let my kids play with my old lead minis just to be on the safe side (then again, I don't let them play with my paints or my x-acto knife either).  I like the new metals and the plastic minis better.  Lead is so soft and doesn't hold the details very well.  These newer materials are much better anyway.  Most of my old minis have been turned into bullets. Only the really nicely painted ones have survived.

Edit:  And those of you using a dremel on your minis...you had better be wearing safety glasses!  Getting a shard of metal in your eye is no joke and you are at a much greater risk of that than inhaling toxic levels of lead dust...


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## buzz (Mar 26, 2004)

Thanks for all of the good advice and info, folks. I guess I can leave behind the toxicity issue and focus simply on whether someone else might get more fun out of them than I will.


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## Brown Jenkin (Mar 26, 2004)

Uller said:
			
		

> Lead minis aren't a danger to gamers.  The real threat is products that are produced using dihydrogen monoxide.   I hear Mt. Dew contains extremely high levels of the stuff...
> 
> http://www.dhmo.org/
> 
> ...




Absolutely right. That is why I have cut out any product that contains dihydrogen monoxide from my life. I figure in a few days of abstaining I can get enough dihydrogen monoxide out of my system that I will be healthy.


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## Henry (Mar 26, 2004)

Uller said:
			
		

> The city of Aliso Viejo, Calif is on the cutting edge of this fight.  They attempted to ban this deadly substance, but unfortunately the bill was killed by industry insiders...




You know how some people have really fun jobs? I SO would have wanted to be the guy who broke the news to the council...


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## Hjorimir (Mar 26, 2004)

You know, once they have been properly primered, they are effectively painted. So if you're worried that much about it and haven't had the time to paint them yet, just coat them in primer and you’re good to go.


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## Marius Delphus (Mar 26, 2004)

pogre said:
			
		

> That matches my memory as well. I vaguely remember something about a suit or statute from New York being the catalyst. Ral Partha renamed their pewter something ridiculous that escapes me just now.




"Ralidium," IIRC.

I had occasion to discuss this one just the other day, and I also have this vague recollection of a "sudden"-ish switch-over to non-lead "lead" minis.

'Course, we still call 'em "lead figures" for what it's worth.


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## pogre (Mar 26, 2004)

diaglo said:
			
		

> that was my line....go back to my original post in this thread.




Saying the same thing differently is what this message board is all about


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## D+1 (Mar 27, 2004)

buzz said:
			
		

> So, assuming I get around to painting them, I should wear gloves and use a respirator, and then make sure that I and my group wash our hands after every game where we use them.
> 
> I'm still leaning towards selling them.



Got you good and paranoid now eh?  I'm no MD, but I think it's safe to say that painting them and playing D&D with lead miniatures will not be any more likely to give you brain damage than failing to wash your hands after using the restroom will send you into the hospital.  Don't suck on your lead minis, or melt them down and lean over to inhale the fumes repeatedly and at length, or give them to small children to play with and chances are EXCELLENT you and your lead minis will life long and prosper.

This is not to say that there is no danger from lead but lets be reasonable.  People die and are maimed in car crashes but we don't seal ourselves into our cars with Safe-T-Fome!, we just buckle our seatbelts.  If you are so concerned about your minis that you'll make sure to wash your hands after every game and still don't want them around anymore then surely they are too DANGEROUS to sell.  It would be immoral to simply pass on hazardous materials to a possibly ignorant purchaser.  I hereby offer myself as a disposal agent for ALL unwanted lead minis.  Just send 'em to me and I'll take care of them.  I confess that I will keep the best of them for use myself but I can probably sell the bulk lead to a non-ferrous metals dealer somewhere for a few cents to finance my uncontrolled plasticrack habit.


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## D+1 (Mar 27, 2004)

diaglo said:
			
		

> *sawbones* is right in truth. but the whole worst case scenario always makes people err on the side of caution when giving advice on subject's like this one.
> 
> you will note on the CDC link i posted about the dangers of lead poisoning it does mention Hobbyists.



But when you look closer at the list of hobbyists, what they use lead for and possibly more important HOW they use it is what presents the danger.  I'm no expert but I'll say that my initial impression is that the danger from most of those hobbies would be prolonged exposure to fumes from molten lead in close proximity.

As a side note, even before the move to Raladium and pewter it was my understanding that the metal used wasn't exactly pure lead.  Too much lead would actually make miniatures too SOFT to be useable.  Too little lead and they became somewhat brittle.  You'll undoubtedly notice that the lead content varies between manufacturers, different minis, and probably even between the same minis simply because the metal being used isn't mixed with scientific accuracy.  What they mix it with I've never heard, just that they call it "white metal".  Heard that name a LONG ways back (the '80's I'm sure)but never saw a description of what constitutes it.


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