# Animal Characters



## mmadsen (May 10, 2002)

Has anyone used animals (Awakened or otherwise) as characters in their games?  

I thought an Awakened Dog or a Wizard's Familiar might be fun to play, but what would you recommend for PC Animals that should advance with the rest of the party?  Animals "get the shaft" when it comes to advancement (no Skill points, no Feats), and character classes don't seem like a good fit.  Suggestions?


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## Kurtz Tote (May 11, 2002)

I've never played an animal, although I gave a lot of thought to a imp pscion though.  I would think pscion would be a great fit for an animal, and any animal with working hands (for gestures and the likes) would make a cool sorcer.

Good luck with it.  The strangest thing I've ever played was an intelligent sword.  Very fun to play and has gotten worked deep into the history of the world in which I play.


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## hong (May 11, 2002)

Cow: "Rule 1: no more tipping."


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## PenguinKing (May 11, 2002)

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *Animals "get the shaft" when it comes to advancement (no Skill points, no Feats), and character classes don't seem like a good fit.  Suggestions? *



There's where you're wrong.  Fighter and rogue work for absolutely _anything_ with minimal or no rationalization, and it's not all that unlikely that an Awakened animal could advance as a sorcerer*.

 - Sir Bob.

* (yes, spell components might be an issue, until you realize that since a sorcerer is assumed to have any non-priced component automatically as long as he has his spell component pouch on him, the component pouch is essentially the wizard/sorcerer version of a cleric's divine focus - in a purely metagame sense, anyway.  Allowing a sorcerer to substitute a different focus item (one that better suits the character's theme) for the component pouch makes little or no game-mechanical difference in the vast majority of situations.)


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## Eternalknight (May 11, 2002)

*Re: Re: Animal Characters*



			
				PenguinKing said:
			
		

> *
> There's where you're wrong.  Fighter and rogue work for absolutely anything with minimal or no rationalization, and it's not all that unlikely that an Awakened animal could advance as a sorcerer*.
> 
> *




How about barbarian?  I can see a lot of raging animals.  Ranger might also work; Track and favored enemy are fine and are right up an animals alley (although I'm not too sure about Ambidexterity or two-weapon fighting)


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## Falcon (May 11, 2002)

I ran an all animal campaign once.  The evil ranchers and developers killed them off really early on.


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## Regdar (May 11, 2002)

*Bah, marketing*

Regdar says why don't you just make a marketing thread and have everyone post their wants and desires there. Says bandwidth.


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## reapersaurus (May 11, 2002)

hong said:
			
		

> *Cow: "Rule 1: no more tipping." *



but for large parties, they require 15% tipping...


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## Templetroll (May 11, 2002)

When my daughter wanted to try D&D the DM allowed her toplay a talking cat.  It had few abilities although nine lives was one of them!  She worked through about 5 of her lives by the time the entire party got wiped out.

She has since played a faerie dragon, a an owl sorceror and a wolf with druidic abilities.  the wolf was Awakened by a treant and given an amulet that allowed spells to be cast by verbal only.  That character is a 2 HD critter and Druid 3 currently.  Fits in well with the group and her movement and trip ability have been very useful!

The one time she tried to play a human it was a wizard named Sabrina and she died at the Moathouse in the ToEE module during our first run there.


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## Someguy (May 11, 2002)

*Re: Bah, marketing*



			
				Regdar said:
			
		

> *Regdar says why don't you just make a marketing thread and have everyone post their wants and desires there. Says bandwidth. *





There is also the D20 publishers forum...


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## Moe Ronalds (May 11, 2002)

A monkey rogue with a human bard helping him out? (Yes Bobo, Whya don't you dance-ah for the nice-ah people, ah?)


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## Dinkeldog (May 11, 2002)

Why don't you try to get the licensing rights to "Wind in the Willows".  Or you could remake "Burrows and Bunnies" as d20.  I would buy either of those in a heartbeat.


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## V-2 (May 11, 2002)

> There is also the D20 publishers forum...




Ah, but that would be blatant commercialism.


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## Aeolius (May 11, 2002)

In my "Nature of the Beast" campaign concept, the PCs began as the forest animal companions to the local druidess. One day, they discovered she had been slain - the campaign was to be a murder mystery, of sorts.


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## KnowTheToe (May 11, 2002)

Gamma World had the equivelent of playing awakened animals.  It cuts down on some roleplaying opportunities, but can still be playable.  Never forget about Rule Zero, you can run it any way you darn well please.


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## mmadsen (May 11, 2002)

*Re: Re: Animal Characters*



> There's where you're wrong.  Fighter and rogue work for absolutely _anything_ with minimal or no rationalization, and it's not all that unlikely that an Awakened animal could advance as a sorcerer.




When I said that "character classes don't seem like a good fit," I meant that there's no good class for a dog to become a better dog.  For instance, I'd like to give a dog a class with Good Fort and Ref Saves, enough Skill points (and the proper class Skills) for Listen, Spot, Swim, and Wilderness Lore, and good dog Bonus Feats (Trip, Disarm, Mobility, Alertness, etc.).

Obviously the human classes aren't designed for this (not that they should be).


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## mmadsen (May 11, 2002)

> When my daughter wanted to try D&D the DM allowed her to play a talking cat.




That's exactly what I'm going for.  Everyone can identify with animals, most people like animals, and it's easy enough to pretend to be an animal.



> She has since played a faerie dragon, a an owl sorceror and a wolf with druidic abilities.  the wolf was Awakened by a treant and given an amulet that allowed spells to be cast by verbal only.  That character is a 2 HD critter and Druid 3 currently.  Fits in well with the group and her movement and trip ability have been very useful!




Those all sound like great ideas.


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## hong (May 11, 2002)

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> That's exactly what I'm going for. Everyone can identify with animals, most people like animals, and it's easy enough to pretend to be an animal.
> *




Mmm, sheep.


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## mmadsen (May 11, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Animal Characters*



> When I said that "character classes don't seem like a good fit," I meant that there's no good class for a dog to become a better dog.  For instance, I'd like to give a dog a class with Good Fort and Ref Saves, enough Skill points (and the proper class Skills) for Listen, Spot, Swim, and Wilderness Lore, and good dog Bonus Feats (Trip, Disarm, Mobility, Alertness, etc.).




Dog skills:

(From the Monster Manual entry)
Listen
Spot
Swim
Wilderness Lore

(Others)
Animal Empathy (Human Empathy? "Ooh, look at the doggie!")
Balance (show dogs)
Handle Animal (sheep dogs)
Heel (oh, sorry, Heal, and I guess dogs aren't good at that)
Hide (not as well as a cat or fox)
Intimidate (guard dog)
Intuit Direction
Jump
Move Silently (again, not as well as a cat or fox)
Perform (circus dog)
Search
Sense Motive ("smell" fear, a lie, etc.)
Tumble (circus dog)


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## PenguinKing (May 11, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Animal Characters*



			
				mmadsen said:
			
		

> *When I said that "character classes don't seem like a good fit," I meant that there's no good class for a dog to become a better dog.  For instance, I'd like to give a dog a class with Good Fort and Ref Saves, enough Skill points (and the proper class Skills) for Listen, Spot, Swim, and Wilderness Lore, and good dog Bonus Feats (Trip, Disarm, Mobility, Alertness, etc.).*



You seem to have a very specific idea of what a "better dog" is.  Not all dogs are particularly tough, or especially good trackers, or any better in a fight than "run up and bite it", etc.  To get exactly what you want, you'd have to essentially devise a separate character class for every breed of dog you wish to include. 

Honestly, I think the easiest route would be just to make your canine a multiclass Fighter/Expert and be done with it.

 - Sir Bob.


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## mmadsen (May 12, 2002)

> You seem to have a very specific idea of what a "better dog" is.




I'm not sure why you say that.  The traits I listed for a dog class were just what's already in the dog write-up in the Monster Manual: Good Fort and Ref Saves; Listen, Spot, Swim, and Wilderness Lore skills; the Trip quasi-feat.  I then extrapolated a bit, thinking of Feats appropriate for a dog -- real police dogs disarm suspects with a bite to the arm, for instance -- and real Skills appropriate for a dog.

That's what I meant by a "better dog".  I like the idea of an Owl Sorcerer or a Wolf Druid, but I also like the idea of a Faithful Hound who isn't anything more than a "better dog".



> Not all dogs are particularly tough, or especially good trackers, or any better in a fight than "run up and bite it", etc.




Well, right.  I only need a dog class for a high-level PC dog, an epic dog, a Lassie or Rin-Tin-Tin.



> To get exactly what you want, you'd have to essentially devise a separate character class for every breed of dog you wish to include.




Or I can give them a wide enough list of Class Skills and Bonus Feats that they can just choose the appropriate ones.


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## I'm A Banana (May 12, 2002)

Make 'em a Monk! 

I suppose you could have them advance as a beast or a magical beast, too. I mean, they are awakened (making them something of a magical beast).

Very intriguing idea.


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## Darkness (May 12, 2002)

/me reads the initial post again and wonders how it could be seen as market research...?


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## Harlock (May 12, 2002)

Well mmadsen I don't care if this is market research (which I honestly don't think it is)  To answer your question I have allowed an awakened riding dog into my campaign as an NPC.  I originally let it advance in monk (thinking the unarmed attacks were appropriate ) but when he was forced to make an alignment change due to a deck of many things I switched him to sorceror.  I have also considered letting him advance as a psion, but since there is already a spion in my campaign I felt the niche was already filled.  As far as sorceror goes I let the dog cast without expensive components and somatic features I let slide with tail movement.  Over all though I cannot say I have enjoyed the character, but I think that is because I really haven't given him enough detail.  I had thought of ascending him and giving him the animal portfolio just to get rid of him.


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## hong (May 12, 2002)

Harlock said:
			
		

> *Well mmadsen I don't care if this is market research (which I honestly don't think it is)  To answer your question I have allowed an awakened riding dog into my campaign as an NPC.  I originally let it advance in monk (thinking the unarmed attacks were appropriate ) but when he was forced to make an alignment change due to a deck of many things I switched him to sorceror.  I have also considered letting him advance as a psion, but since there is already a spion in my campaign I felt the niche was already filled.  As far as sorceror goes I let the dog cast without expensive components and somatic features I let slide with tail movement.  Over all though I cannot say I have enjoyed the character, but I think that is because I really haven't given him enough detail.  I had thought of ascending him and giving him the animal portfolio just to get rid of him. *




Indeed, and then when misfortune befell your characters, they could attribute them to acts of dog.

Sorry.


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## PenguinKing (May 12, 2002)

*Re: Re: Animal Characters*



			
				mmadsen said:
			
		

> *That's what I meant by a "better dog". I like the idea of an Owl Sorcerer or a Wolf Druid, but I also like the idea of a Faithful Hound who isn't anything more than a "better dog".*



Well, an Awakened dog, as a Magical Beast, has d10 Hit Dice, figher BAB, and good Fortitude and Reflex saves.  On top of that, you wish to add a large class skill list, relatively high skill points, and a bunch of bonus combat-related feats?  Somehow, it seems off to me that a plain-vanilla, ordinary dog would be, Hit Die for Hit Die, better in combat than the Fighter, and additionally sport a skill list to rival that of a bard or rogue.

 - Sir Bob.


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## mmadsen (May 12, 2002)

> Well, an Awakened dog, as a Magical Beast, has d10 Hit Dice, figher BAB, and good Fortitude and Reflex saves.




Does it?  According to the Awaken entry, "An awakened animal gets 3d6 Intelligence, +1d3 Charisma, and +2 HD."  I don't see anything about the Animal becoming a Magical Beast (even if that makes sense), and other Animals that become Magical Beasts (familiars, Paladins' mounts) don't gain the properties of a Magical Beast (besides the new classification).

(I was planning on allowing a 1st-level Awakened Dog to start with just one (d8) Hit Die.)



> On top of that, you wish to add a large class skill list, relatively high skill points, and a bunch of bonus combat-related feats?  Somehow, it seems off to me that a plain-vanilla, ordinary dog would be, Hit Die for Hit Die, better in combat than the Fighter, and additionally sport a skill list to rival that of a bard or rogue.




Why would it be better in combat than a Fighter when it has a dog's Animal BAB, Hit Dice, and Saves (analogous to a Cleric's)?  And what's so fantastic about four Skill points per level?

If I proposed a human class that was a variant Fighter with a worse BAB (as Cleric), worse HD (as Cleric), four Skill points, and two Good Saves, would that seem overpowered?


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## mmadsen (May 12, 2002)

> When my daughter wanted to try D&D the DM allowed her to play a talking cat.




By the way, that's very cool -- that your daughter wanted to play, and that the DM had her play a talking cat.


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## PenguinKing (May 12, 2002)

*Re: Re: Animal Characters*



			
				mmadsen said:
			
		

> *Why would it be better in combat than a Fighter when it has a dog's Animal BAB, Hit Dice, and Saves (analogous to a Cleric's)?*



I believe it's been errata'd that Awakened animals _are_ Magical Beasts.  Even if the spell doesn't change their stats at that particular moment, their current type affects advancement if you're allowing them to advance in HD non-classed - and Magical Beast advancement is right up there with fighter, save for feats and skill points.  Throw in bonus feats and decent skill points and they'll have everything a Fighter has, plus a couple more skill points per level and an extra "good" save.  This is what I _thought_ you intended.  If you're just using the Animal advancement, it's different.

 - Sir Bob.


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## mmadsen (May 12, 2002)

> ...Magical Beast advancement is right up there with fighter, save for feats and skill points.




The Magical Beast seems designed for challenging (but easy to run) monsters.  I was looking not so much for something powerful enough, but for something on par with a normal character class that would allow an animal to excel at "animal stuff".  That's why I wanted decent Skill points and a few "animal" Feats.  For instance, Improved Grapple would let a terrier bite and hang on.  I think that would be more fun than just biting every turn.

What other Feats might fit a heroic dog?

Alertness
Armor Proficiency -- so he can wear a studded leather vest
Combat Reflexes
Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack
Endurance
Improved Disarm, Improved Trip -- without Expertise
Improved Initiative
Lightning Reflexes
Improved Bull Rush -- only for a "riding" dog
Run
Skill Focus -- on dog skill
Toughness
Track -- no need, since they already have Scent
Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization -- with Bite, obviously

You could probably have some fun with favored-enemy type Feats aimed at cats, rats (for terriers), badgers (for dachshunds), etc.


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## Someguy (May 12, 2002)

V-2 said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Ah, but that would be blatant commercialism. *




touche`


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## mmadsen (May 12, 2002)

Could someone explain how and why anyone would think this is market research, and why anyone would care?  (It's not, or it wasn't, but now that everyone's demanding a Wind in the Willows game...)


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## hong (May 13, 2002)

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *Could someone explain how and why anyone would think this is market research, and why anyone would care?  (It's not, or it wasn't, but now that everyone's demanding a Wind in the Willows game...) *




Replace "market research" with "spam", and I think you get close to the intended meaning. Because I haven't had my coffee today, and so am still relatively mellow:

1) Flooding a forum by starting lots of threads is bad form. This is especially true in a medium like a web board, where thread ownership is a concept taken seriously.

2) Constant editorialising (as opposed to a consistent editorial _position_) is bad form. Most people are quite happy to play D&D the way they've always played it, and don't need others telling them that they should try something different.

3) Taking yourself too seriously is especially bad form.

It would appear that you're in danger of being seen as an evangelist, whether or not that's what you intended. As a rule, people tend not to like evangelists.

Lighten up, d00d.


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## WSmith (May 13, 2002)

What happened to EN World, folks? 

Someone starts posting threads to incite creativity and disscussion, and then everyone stats bashing them. Just because mmadsen has several threads going at once, all about RPGing, doesn't mean he is trying to gather free market research. It could mean that he (or anyone for that matter) is just feeling like disscussing these things.  

I guess the friendly days of Old Eric's Happy Ex-Community are officially over.  If you don't like somone's posts just ignore the darn thing. Half of the stuff on the General Disscussion forum is utter trash, (as good a word as I can use in Eric's Grandmother's prescence) so I don't even bother to read it, no less post to it.


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## Tonguez (May 13, 2002)

WSmith said:
			
		

> *What happened to EN World, folks?
> 
> Someone starts posting threads to incite creativity and disscussion, and then everyone stats bashing them. Just because mmadsen has several threads going at once, all about RPGing, doesn't mean he is trying to gather free market research. It could mean that he (or anyone for that matter) is just feeling like disscussing these things. *




I agree with WSmith on this.

I for one have enjoyed mmadsens various posts and have found they interesting and _entirely_ relevant to the _purpose_ of the boards - to talk about RPG stuff.

So mmasden keep at it.

*As to the topic* - I've had a character play an intelligent dolphin Ranger (all Dolphins imc are intelligent - Porpoise stats with Int 10) -I replaced the Ambi and 2 weapon feat with Aquatic and Sonar and a Still Spell feat (in exchange for a no hands disadvantage)

Luckily it was Island based and had alot of time in the water (either in boats or underwater breathing). I also had a druid who could (conviniently) interpret the Dolphin clicks and whistles - very Flipper with a touch of Man from Atlantis.

Animals work just choose the right feats and allow them to use 'Monster' Feats too (eg a Dog could have Improved Hold or Pounce) ...


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## Dinkeldog (May 13, 2002)

*Dolphin Ranger*

I disagree with WSmith on this, but that's immaterial.

It's a good thing the dolphin was a ranger or he wouldn't have had the feats to replace with Sonar.  It would suck to be a dolphin without Sonar.

I would probably write up a new dolphin _race_ and leave the class alone.

MMadsen would likely recognize this as good d20 game design, though.



			
				Tonguez said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I agree with WSmith on this.
> 
> ...


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## Dinkeldog (May 13, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Animal Characters*

_Awakened_ animals are still animals, not magical beasts

Lord of the Iron Fortress Spoiler:
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_Awakened_ dire tigers that have been affected by _animal growth_



			
				PenguinKing said:
			
		

> *
> I believe it's been errata'd that Awakened animals are Magical Beasts.  Even if the spell doesn't change their stats at that particular moment, their current type affects advancement if you're allowing them to advance in HD non-classed - and Magical Beast advancement is right up there with fighter, save for feats and skill points.  Throw in bonus feats and decent skill points and they'll have everything a Fighter has, plus a couple more skill points per level and an extra "good" save.  This is what I thought you intended.  If you're just using the Animal advancement, it's different.
> 
> - Sir Bob. *


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## AGGEMAM (May 13, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Animal Characters*



			
				Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> *Awakened animals are still animals, not magical beasts *




According to the rules the Rules Council who conveened to address this matter awakened animals are officially still animals for the sake of thier physical aspects, ie they can be targeted by animal growth, etc., but are magical beast in all other ways, ie cannot be targeted by animal friendship, etc..


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## Dinkeldog (May 13, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Animal Characters*



			
				AGGEMAM said:
			
		

> *
> 
> According to the rules the Rules Council who conveened to address this matter awakened animals are officially still for the sake of thier physical aspects, ie they can be targeted by animal growth, etc., but are magical beast in all other ways, ie cannot be targeted by animal friendship, etc.. *




Cool.  All of the benefits and none of the hindrances.


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## Rune (May 13, 2002)

Oooo!

Great topic, as usual, mmadsen!

I haven't done it before, but now I want to give an animal/fairytale campaign a try!


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## mmadsen (May 13, 2002)

> The strangest thing I've ever played was an intelligent sword.  Very fun to play and has gotten worked deep into the history of the world in which I play.




Playing a sword is a bit off-topic, not being about animals, so I glossed over it originally, but it has piqued my interest.  What does an intelligent sword do?  How did that campaign play out?


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## mmadsen (May 13, 2002)

> I ran an all animal campaign once.  The evil ranchers and developers killed them off really early on.




Hmm...sounds like an animal version of Call of Cthulhu: Night of the Ranchers.  That might be a fun one-off, defending the burrow against humans and trying to get away from gopher-gassers, farm boys with .22s, and human-loyal dogs.

(Why didn't I pick up GURPS Bunnies & Burrows?)


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## mmadsen (May 13, 2002)

> In my "Nature of the Beast" campaign concept, the PCs began as the forest animal companions to the local druidess. One day, they discovered she had been slain - the campaign was to be a murder mystery, of sorts.




I really enjoy that campaign concept, and I know I've read about an old tournament scenario like that, where the heroes were the wizard's pets and familiars, trying to find out what happened to him.  Anyone else remember reading about that?

It seems like a great way to introduce people to roleplaying games.


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## mmadsen (May 13, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Animal Characters*

I don't see the same potential for a "better cat" as for a "better dog".  I can't think of any epic cats, and I can easily see a cat as a Sorcerer rather than a super-cat.  Nonetheless, I thought I'd go through the skills looking for cat skills.

Cat skills:

(From the Monster Manual entry)
Balance
Climb
Hide
Listen
Move Silently
Spot

(Others)
Animal Empathy (Human Empathy? "Ooh, kitty!")
Bluff (you never know what a cat's thinking)
Innuendo (if cats could talk...)
Intimidate (they can scare off some surprisinly big dogs)
Jump (seems natural)
Tumble (they do always land on their feet)

Hmm...the cat does look like a good match for the Rogue, doesn't it?


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## WSmith (May 13, 2002)

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *I really enjoy that campaign concept, and I know I've read about an old tournament scenario like that, where the heroes were the wizard's pets and familiars, trying to find out what happened to him.  Anyone else remember reading about that?
> 
> It seems like a great way to introduce people to roleplaying games. *




I got this idea from checking out the Pokemon Adventure Game. (RPG). You play the role of the trainer. You have no stats for yourself. You have cards for the Pokemon you possess, that do have stats to have battles. But this can be expanded to include other things. Imported to D&D, you could actually be a wizard, with familiars, and have them do the adventure stuff, like fighting, sneaking, thievery, etc. Perhaps, wizards in a particular campaign setting duel quite frequently through the use of their animal servants, being the Player Characters.


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## mmadsen (May 13, 2002)

*Rules Threads*

I found a few threads about animals in the rules forum (for those who like to play by the rules):

Experience for Animal Companions
http://www.enworld.org/messageboards/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12537

Pets - are they animal companions too?
http://www.enworld.org/messageboards/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12691

Awakened Animal, Paladin Companion, Wizards Familiar
http://www.enworld.org/messageboards/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12710


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## mmadsen (May 13, 2002)

> Imported to D&D, you could actually be a wizard, with familiars, and have them do the adventure stuff, like fighting, sneaking, thievery, etc. Perhaps, wizards in a particular campaign setting duel quite frequently through the use of their animal servants, being the Player Characters.




I love it, WSmith.  Love it.  I was considering something similar, with magic consisting solely of summoning spells, but I really like the twist of the animal servants being the PCs.

I also like the notion someone else proffered up of wizards being the pawns of their familiars, not their masters.


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## tenelo (May 13, 2002)

*Good read*

For a really cool read, which is mostly related to topic, try 'A lonesome night in October' by Roger Zelazny. Not 100% sure about the title, but it's pretty near. It's plot is told from the point of view of a wizard's familiar, a dog in this case. It deals with wizards (more or less) doing wizardly things, with the familiars playing a vital role. Thoughtful rather than action packed, but I thought it was a damn good book. Must get another copy, I lent mine out and it didn't come home.


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## mmadsen (May 14, 2002)

*Re: Good read*



> For a really cool read, which is mostly related to topic, try 'A lonesome night in October' by Roger Zelazny. Not 100% sure about the title, but it's pretty near....Must get another copy, I lent mine out and it didn't come home.




In the US at least, it looks like Zelazny's _A Night in the Lonesome October_ is coming back into print this June.  Amazon list it as a hardcover from Avon Books; ISBN: 0380972239; Reprint edition (June 2002).


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## mmadsen (May 14, 2002)

*Cat Feats*

Cat Feats:

(From Monster Manual)
Improved Trip (not much use when you're tiny...)
Pounce
Improved Grab
Rake

(Others)
Alertness
Combat Reflexes
Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack
Improved Initiative
Lightning Reflexes
Weapon Finesse (Bite and Claws)


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## Dinkeldog (May 14, 2002)

It looks to me that if you want to play cats, you can go classless, but if you want to play dogs, you are going to want to stick with classes to differentiate between the roles of hunting dogs, riding dogs and circus dogs.


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## Snoweel (May 14, 2002)

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Playing a sword is a bit off-topic, not being about animals, so I glossed over it originally, but it has piqued my interest.  What does an intelligent sword do?  How did that campaign play out? *




I played a game once where *all* the PC's were intelligent weapons.

However, one of the players ruined the campaign (he was one of those guys who just *had* to play an Evil character).

I'll never forget when his +2 keen, vorpal tonfa rogue backstabbed my +3 holy, bane vs animals main gauche ranger.

I haven't spoken to him since...


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## mmadsen (May 14, 2002)

*Re: Dolphin Ranger*



> I would probably write up a new dolphin _race_ and leave the class alone.  MMadsen would likely recognize this as good d20 game design, though.




Either path is more or less legitimate in 3E.  You'll notice that the various monster types (Animal, Beast, Construct) are analogous to character classes, and that multi-hit-die monsters that take character classes are effectively multiclassing.

On the other hand, single-hit-die monsters are interpreted as a race if they multiclass, and whatever class they then take determines their hit die, skills, etc.


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## hong (May 15, 2002)

Snoweel said:
			
		

> *
> I'll never forget when his +2 keen, vorpal tonfa rogue backstabbed my +3 holy, bane vs animals main gauche ranger.
> 
> I haven't spoken to him since... *




That's your own fault for playing a gauche ranger. Obviously you offended the rogue's keen (vorpal) sense of etiquette and manners.


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## Master of Monkeys (May 15, 2002)

*Monkey Monk*

I played a monkey monk in one campaign.  Stun attack was great but my punch did very little damage.  A sorcerer or wizard would be a great monkey, anything that doesn't rely on weapons.  I don't think weapons and animal characters mix but I am not sure.


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## mmadsen (May 15, 2002)

*Re: Monkey Monk*



> I played a monkey monk in one campaign.




That reminds me, of course, of the Vanara race from Oriental Adventures -- monkey men along the lines of Hanuman.  I still find it odd that they're smarter and weaker than humans (+2 Int, +2 Wis, -2 Str).


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## hong (May 15, 2002)

*Re: Re: Monkey Monk*



			
				mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> That reminds me, of course, of the Vanara race from Oriental Adventures -- monkey men along the lines of Hanuman.  I still find it odd that they're smarter and weaker than humans (+2 Int, +2 Wis, -2 Str). *




Well, that actually makes quite a bit of sense if you think about it. Monkeys are mischevious little trouble makers, with a mind all of their own, as anyone who's lived in close proximity to them will attest. They may not be very big or strong, but they're surprisingly bright and resourceful. People who get it into their minds to harrass monkeys for no good reason often find that payback is a bear, as the monkeys take their revenge in all sorts of vicious and sneaky ways.

The moral, of course, is not to spank the monkey.

Thank you.


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## Master of Monkeys (May 15, 2002)

*Monkey*

Touch attacks would be good for an animal character.  I think opposable thumbs are the best, seriously, everone should have one.

For playing intelligent weapons, I think maybe dancing weapons would work pretty well, maybe not though because you would have to be near your owner and all that.

Based on the game Black and White, monkeys are intelligent.  In the animal world (not counting humans) monkeys would be the smartest, so when converted to humans they would get the plus to intelligence.


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## mmadsen (May 15, 2002)

*Re: Monkey*



> In the animal world (not counting humans) monkeys would be the smartest, so when converted to humans they would get the plus to intelligence.




Just imagine how smart a human converted to human would be!


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## Master of Monkeys (May 15, 2002)

*Re: Re: Monkey*



			
				mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Just imagine how smart a human converted to human would be! *




They would be terrible god-like titans that ruled the land with iron-fists.  I had a campaign where I let everyone play a human converted to a human, but everyone played an elf.  I have fond memories of that campaign, or at least would have if it hadn't been a product of my imagination while lying on the floor in a crazed drug filled stupor.  I think that was one of my best campaigns ever.  As I said, I have no idea if it was.


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## I'm A Banana (May 15, 2002)

Doesn't Masters of the Wild have a new weapon type that animals without thumbs can wield? Like "Opposable" or something. Perfect for that bow-shootin' squirrel.

And dogs would have to be differentiated on size....some ideas, call it Fur and Feathers d20

Cat = Rogue...maybe Wizard/Sorcerer?
Great Cat = Paladin? (Lions as nobility and all that)
Dog (MM version, coyote or fox sized) = Ranger
Dog (Smaller, yippitty, circus version) = Barbarian (Ever seen a small dog rage? It ain't pretty...my sneaker was never the same)
Dog (Bigger, hunting/riding version) = Fighter
Monkey = Rogue? Monk? Maybe Sorcerer or Wizard?
Parrot = Wizard? Bard?
Ape = Barbarian
Boar = Barbarian
Bear = Barbarian
(anyone else see a trend?)
Rat = Rogue
Pigeon/Raven/Etc. = Wizard
Squirrel = NINJA OF DEATH....er...Ranger
Snake = Rogue? Ranger? (Viper assassins! W00t! )
Rhino/Elephant/Bull = Barbarian
Hawk = Ranger
Eagle = Paladin
Owl = Rogue


Etc....hurm...cool campaign idea


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## Tonguez (May 15, 2002)

It seems to me that the most appropriate PC classes for 'mundane' animal characters comes down to

Barbarian, alt.Ranger and Rogue.

Fighter comes in too whereas the other classes require non-Mundane beasts to work (ie awakened). 

I don't mind either type - mundane or awakened - as long as they stay 'essentially' animals. Its the challenge of being an animal and working on the problems of the world from that vantage point that intrigues me.

However as soon as they get to have opposable thumbs and use weapons well then I don't see the point - afterall all you've done is created another furry sub-humanoid.

{BTW should Paladins Mount be available as a Animal PC class?}


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## Chris_Nightwing (May 15, 2002)

*Not played but owned *

I got me a celestial wolf from holy liberator levels. He was ok, then I hit 19th level and his HD advancement made him nice and large, and pretty tough with all the celestial abilities. Then I just happened to put a spare belt +6 STR, wings of flying and an amulet of CON +6 on him, making superwolf 

He has been very useful though, He could very easily be a character in his own right (and probably a hard CR 11-12 challenge).

Other than that, I have spent alot of time playing familiars that I have owned. I did consider an awakened whatever as a character, but the DM just though it was silly. Oh well.

If I was a Druid, I would pick up leadership, then awaken something handy like a dire eagle or something, give it levels in druid too (with spellcasting feats from MotW) and then arm all our animal companions with alchemists fire or fire seeds or something, then go on a bombing campaign


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## Swiftpaw Fatfox (Dec 20, 2008)

There is a book I downloaded called the noble wild. It has rules for animal characters. this is probably the best choice for any player wanting to play an animal


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## Thanee (Dec 20, 2008)

> 15th May 2002




That was the last post in this thread prior to yours. 

Bye
Thanee


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## mmadsen (Dec 20, 2008)

Swiftpaw Fatfox said:


> There is a book I downloaded called the noble wild. It has rules for animal characters. this is probably the best choice for any player wanting to play an animal



Who wrote it, and what are the rules like?


Thanee said:


> That was the last post in this thread prior to yours.



(I still don't understand why bringing back an old thread is a big deal.  That's one of the advantages of the written word, after all; it sticks around.)


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## Swiftpaw Fatfox (Dec 20, 2008)

mmadsen said:


> Who wrote it, and what are the rules like?




It was written by Lee Garvin and Skirmish Games.

Examples of rules: New type- Noble Animal
- Many animals increase in size as the gain HD, depending on species
- Animal languages
- Animals use blood components instead of material components for spells
- Some Unique animal only spells
- Deeds
- Most animals can't use armor or weapons


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## Alzrius (Dec 20, 2008)

You can find The Noble Wild over on RPGNow.

The book has gotten great reviews, and looking it over, I can see why. It does a great job not only presenting "noble animals" as playable races, but also altering existing classes, spells, and feats for play with animal PCs (including an innovative system that replaces magic items), in addition to providing new crunch as well. It also discusses how to play a Noble Wild campaign, either with humanoid characters, or with animals only, and even has a _d20 Modern_ appendix. There are even a few web enhancements out for it too (a new one just came out yesterday about reindeer  ).

It's a great book, and I heartily recommend it to anyone who wants to play an animal PC.


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## Aeolius (Dec 20, 2008)

Six years, and I STILL haven't run Nature of the Beast . Now THAT is a serious back-burner.


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