# Creative uses for Illusion ("Image") spells



## Mistwell (Aug 30, 2005)

I have been composing a list of creative uses for the various Image spells (silent, minor, major, programmed).

Here is what I have found so far (almost all written by others, who I unfortunately do not have the names to credit with their work).  I would really like some more ideas for these excellent spells:

1. Silent Image a wall, to persuade opponants to go around;
2. Have your party press up against an existing wall, and silent image an identical wall in front of the party - super cheap mass invisibility, if cast outside the sight of the opponants;
3. Silent Image a box large enough for the party to hide in;
4. Create an illusion of a pit trap with spikes, with already dead bodies in it, about 10 feet wide;
5. Image backup bow-snipers for free for moral effect and extra false targets for the opponants? Let the first 2 die fast, so more shots are wasted on them;
6. Add more trees in a forest to hide behind;
7. Add a grassy hill on top of your party, and ambush from it;
8. Create an image of a sack over the opponent's head. Technically, there's no save until he takes an action to physically interact with the illusion;
9. Image some fire and smoke in a building or hallway to stop or slow a chase;
10. Image obscuring mist (or other fog-like spell).  Your group (knowing it is an illusion) can see through it, but your opponants will not;
11. Create an image of a wizard casting invisibility. Opponents with spellcraft will go nuts. Alternatively, the "wizard" can cast spells without obvious effects (stoneskin, resist fire) or ones duplicable by an illusion (fly, blink, mirror image). Intelligent opponents will concentrate on attacking the wizard;
12. Create an image of spirits rising from dead bodies (ghosts, shadows, wraiths, spectres- whatever is appropriate) as a distraction, since your weapons swinging through them will not seem unusual given they are incorporeal beings that are being copied;
13. Can you say "surprise round?" I think we killed all but one before the surprise round ended;
14. Create an image of utter darkness (which you can see through, as you know it is an illusion);
15. Create an illusion of your party members in other places to split the opposition;
16. Create an illusion of a wall breaking down and a monster entering.  If they disbelieve, do it again but this time summon a real creature, and let them ignore it until it does them some damage (might even be able to attack ignoring your dex and dodge bonuses if opponants actively ignore it);
17. Make an illusion of a Blade Barrier - less likely to be touched and interacted with;
18. Make a bridge over a chasm you just crossed and hope opponants try to chase you over it (particularly good if you are fleeing and flying, while you seem to be walking over the birdge - or just hide and create an image of you fleeing over the illusionary bridge);
19. Create an illusionary archer who fires arrows at opponents that always misses.  The archer has an AC of 10 + size modifier + range and vision modifiers as appropriate (probably also cover and such);
20. If one of the party members is down or in danger of being swarmed by reinforcements, make an illusion of a few more bad guys and make it appear they are being dealt with and perhaps give them a few minutes to catch their breath;
21. Make what appears to be a patch of entangling ground;
22. Image of a metal cage with sharp pointy spikes covered with dripping poison appearing around the enemy. He doesn't get a save unless he touches it because he hasn't interacted with it and he's not going to touch it because it looks like poison;
23.  Create illusionary monsters to intimidate your foes: Beholders, demons, etc. are good. They can move around the battlefield and look menacing. Low-grade opponents should hopefully avoid things like this and run. I'm more of a GM than a player, but one way I'd rule this tactic is to allow the illusionist to make intimidate checks with a +2 (up to +4) illusion bonus to the check;
24. In addition to duplicating dungewon walls, you can copy spells that make sudden walls or objects or obsticles: illusionary walls of stone, iron, ice, prismatic shifting colors.. can sometimes seal off an escape route. So can patches of writihing shadowy black tentacles, or areas covered in illusionary webs. If your'e up to the Major image spell, you can use walls of fire or crackling electricity. The idea is to conceal or discourage interaction, but by the time anyone egts close enough to determine that he can feel heat from the wall of fire- he's already interacted with it. So having a high saving throw DC would be good as always
25. Create window dressing: I use this when I'm GMing villians, sometimes. It's not especially useful so much as it is "cool" to change the appearance of a location to something weird or disturbing. Change the battlefield to look like a gigantic chessboard with melting clocks or an arena with spiked walls or something; 
26. Distraction. Use your IC knowledge. Confront an NPC with an illusionary figment of one of his previous victims or a family member. Yeah, yeah, he gets a saving throw. Still, sometimes it will throw people off for a round or two, even after the illusion cancels;
27 Create an image on the floor of green slime, randomly surfacing buzz-saws, caltrops, or some other hazard and leave an easy path through it that serves your purposes. A single file path, or perhaps one that takes the enemy through someones threatened area, or within bull-rush range of a fighter and another (real) hazard;
28.  Use image spells as 3-d maps that hover in mid air for team briefings, team huddle strategy sessions, etc. An illusionist can be like the party VCR or instant replay guy, creating a tactical map for everyone to look at while the fighter draws on it like John Madden;
29. Use a a percieved threat as flanking (note - some DMs say this is not allowed because the illusion is not actually threatening the opponants square, while others feel that the perception of the threat is what creates the flanking, not the actual threat);
30. Mis up illusions and reality - For example, you are invisible, then cast an illusion of yourself casting a illusion spell, then the real you appear (as if you were the figment) and cast something, perhaps a spell like transmute rock to mud or wall of fire. It´s likely that any enemy spellcaster think you and the real spell are the illusions, waste a round on the fake you, and walk like an idiot on the real spell;
31. Make the illusion of the party coming out of a translucent wall. Chances are that the enemies will think they are the real ones, doing the trick of hiding behind a illusory wall, and be fooled. While you are invisible, use the higher level illusion spells (like programmed image) to make a copy of yourself casting illusions, while the real you (invisible) cast Summon Monster N. Maybe they think they really are illusions, and ignore the monsters; if they learn from their errors, start casting illusions of summoned monsters;
32. Make an illusion of a shield guardian protecting you, which should dissuade many opponents from charging.


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## Jack Simth (Aug 30, 2005)

Some of those (such as #22) appear to forget that you can get a save if they "study it carefully" (which just about anyone suddenly inside a poisoned cage would do - looking for a safe way to grab it and maybe a door, even if they didn't suspect it was an illusion)


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## Kazinsky (Aug 30, 2005)

Wonderful list!  I have seldom used the image-based spells due to a lack of in-the-moment creativity on my part.  I like these a lot.  Thank you -- consider it _yoinked_!


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## Mistwell (Aug 31, 2005)

Jack Simth said:
			
		

> Some of those (such as #22) appear to forget that you can get a save if they "study it carefully" (which just about anyone suddenly inside a poisoned cage would do - looking for a safe way to grab it and maybe a door, even if they didn't suspect it was an illusion)




I agree.  Of course, having a high DC will help with that, and illusions are one of the few schools were you can pump the DC a bit easier than usual.


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## Ingegnere (Aug 31, 2005)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> 10. Image obscuring mist (or other fog-like spell).  Your group (knowing it is an illusion) can see through it, but your opponants will not;




I, as a DM, would not let my players to automatically see through it. The wizard who casts the illusion can automatically see through it, but i would have the other characters of the group make a save roll with the regular bonus (+4, if I remember correctly).
I imagine illusions like those sterescopic images, where you see only a mess of coloured dots until you focus your eyes beyond the picture and see the real image. There are people who can see the real image the first time they look, and others (like me) who can't see them even if someone is telling them where to look!

Given that, the list is very inspiring!


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## melkorspawn (Aug 31, 2005)

Great list... here are a couple others I thought up while reading it:

1. Illusion yourself up a reach weapon, have enemies waste movements on avoiding your 'threatened squares', or, if you have a reach weapon, illusion yourself up a normal one, can you say AoO?
2. If you're a ranged person, make yourself look like a beefy melee person, and have the ranged  attacks come from the tiny companion on your shoulder.
3. Facing those dangerous NPC clerics: Make yourself appear to be undead, have them waste time trying to rebuke or command you.
4. Make yourself look like a tank using a wand (Let the npcs think he's got impressive ranks in Use Magic Device).
5. If you're running from a fight and going through a door, move it five feet over, and watch as your pursuers run into the wall.

I'll have more, but I'm gonna go pick up some dinner.


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## melkorspawn (Aug 31, 2005)

A Cross Between Mistwell's 18 and my 5:

6. Fleeing from a fight over a bridge, move the bridge over after crossing it.


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## melkorspawn (Sep 1, 2005)

7. If you have damage resistance from something (e.g. Green Star Adept's DR/Adamantine) make yourself look like a werewolf, so the npcs think you're vulnerable to a different material.
8. Illusion other NPCs surrendering, see if you can make the real ones join suit.
9. Disguise one of your opponants as yourself.
10. Make it look like a trap is triggered making the walls move in, which is quickly disabled.  Can you say 'Sneak Attack Lane'?


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## Jack Simth (Sep 1, 2005)

melkorspawn said:
			
		

> 9. Disguise one of your opponants as yourself.



9b. Disguise yourself as one of your opponents (letting your allies know about the tactic in advance, of course - and preffereably find something Dissmissable to cover yourself with....)
9c. Do 9 and 9b simultaneously with an opponent who is hanging towards the back (Quickened Disguise Self).  With luck, they will think you switched places to set up flanking ... and that your now-doppleganger is really a weaking spellcaster....


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## azhrei_fje (Sep 1, 2005)

Those are all pretty good uses, depending on the DC.

One thing I've used with my BBEGs in the past is for them to create an escape route from their hideout that is lined with false walls and floors.

I have one villain that the party has come up against twice, who has done just that.  (He's a specialist in making constructs.)  He has a corridor that makes left-right and right-left turns every 40 feet or so.  Just around the first corner are two illusionary walls, one on each side but not directly across from each other.  Behind the walls are some low CR constructs.  Just beyond the constructs is a real pit in the floor covered with an illusion; only a 1' ledge on the right and left sides of the pit are safe, and there's a green slime in the bottom of the pit that Thresh feeds periodically.  (Mostly using trolls, since that gives him a permanent food supply.)

When he needs to escape, he flees down the corridor, using the ledge on one side to get past the pit.  He goes slow enough, or waits, so that he is about to go around the next corner as the PCs come around the first corner.  They'll catch a glimpse and keep going.  The first PC falls into the pit, but can make a pretty hard Reflex save to grab the side.  Since everything in the round is happening simultaneously (see DMG, pg 24), let the other PCs come around the corner and keep going -- they may fall into the pit as well.  PCs after the first get a +2 bonus on their Reflex saves.  But this is where the constructs come out from the walls.  The one closest to the pit moves to the edge and stomps on the fingers of anyone hanging there.  (No Dex bonus while climbing.  They're probably using two hands as well and dropped whatever they were carrying.)  If there is a PC standing there, the construct performs a bull rush first, then stomps on fingers.  The other construct exits the illusionary wall and turns to face any other pursuers and keep the party separated.  When the second construct leaves the niche in the wall, a pressure plate is released and the area of floor in front of the second construct also opens into a pit.  This one has a small drain connecting it to the first pit, so that the green slime can occupy both areas, but it's too small for the PCs to move through except in _gaseous form_.

Sorry, that got pretty long-winded.  But as you can tell, I'm pretty proud of that particular ambush.  Thresh has used this on other adventuring parties and it has worked quite well.  The current party has tripped this one yet.  But I try to use illusions as much as possible since they tend to be cheaper than the real thing.  And when the BBEG does use the real thing, the party gets a big surprise!


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## melkorspawn (Sep 1, 2005)

Wow, and there's the evil usage.  Thinking about options, all I kept dreaming up was old Warner Brothers cartoons.


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## Mistwell (Sep 3, 2005)

Hide a cliff by giving the illusion the safe ground reaches 30 ft further than it really does.


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## Mistwell (Sep 6, 2005)

Create a replica illusion of an existing pit trap right next to that pit trap, and the a second illusion covering up the real pit trap.  When your opponants chase you this way, you may be able to lure them into going around the illusionary pit and falling into the real one.


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## Mistwell (Sep 6, 2005)

"Another thing I liked to do with my character was combine illusion and divination spells. People will probably react stronger when they have a personal interest in what your illusion is showing. I once got into a city with two firm guards by doing some scrying and spying to find out that the guards each had a child of about the same age, then casting a Major Image of the two kids just on the other side of the city gates, fighting brutally with each other. The guards of course rushed in to stop it... only for a second, but that was enough."


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## Mistwell (Apr 2, 2007)




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## Allegro (Apr 2, 2007)

When your opponents start realizing you are an illusionist.  I like to use Magic Aura to tweak mundane traps.  Give a moat of acid the illusion aura or add the illusion aura to wall a fire.  This way a cautious enemy using Detect Magic just to be safe will learn not to trust the spell.  

In the wilderness big rocks or trees can easily be created to hide soldiers in.


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## lukelightning (Apr 2, 2007)

I like illusions of things like trolls or oozes...things that need fire or other special effect to harm them, to fool enemy casters into wasting their _fireballs_ et. al.

Plus an illusion of a humungus black pudding oozing in through the door is great for messing up the enemy's battle plans..."reatreat! shoot it with arrows! Fireball it!"

One big problem with illusions is that a relatively simple spellcraft check will ruin it. "never mind...that wizard is casting _major image_, just ignore whatever appears...."

My gnome wizard in an Eberron campaign has been toying around with the idea of "conjuring up a magic flying carpet" to "ride on" when he's flying around with his fly spell in combat. Hover close to a ledge...let the enemy try to jump on the "carpet"... buh-bye! Plus it works on stupid PCs too if they get on his nerves.


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## Angel Tarragon (Apr 2, 2007)

Use illusions to portray animals and other creatures to construct a zoo. Keep signs out that tell people that all creatures are illusions so they can't be harmed.

I'm using this one in my homebrew.


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## Mistwell (Apr 3, 2007)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> Use illusions to portray animals and other creatures to construct a zoo. Keep signs out that tell people that all creatures are illusions so they can't be harmed.
> 
> I'm using this one in my homebrew.




I kinda like that idea as a means of gaining knowledge skill ranks actually (between adventures, to represent training for the level-up).


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## Jack Simth (Apr 3, 2007)

There's a couple of other problems with some of the suggestions - the Image spells (as Figments) can't make something seem to be something else, or to not be (that's the domain of Glammers) - so you can't Image the BBEG into looking like you, make a pit that's not real, and so on with the standard image spells.

That said...

Messing with the heads of people with Spellcraft:
Quickened Image of the spell you're wanting to cast, Silent Stilled spell you want.
You can't identify a Silent, Stilled spell unless you see the results.  A Quickened spell takes no real time.

For example, you put up an Illusory Wall of Stone that is easily identified by a DC 16 Spellcraft Check (silent Image) on the part of the opposing Wizard.  At the same time (by way of a Quickened spell), you put up a REAL Wall of Stone (which can't be identified except through the effect).  Wizard correctly identifies the illusion, and shouts to his friends... who trustingly run headlong into it.


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## Mistwell (Apr 3, 2007)

Jack Simth said:
			
		

> There's a couple of other problems with some of the suggestions - the Image spells (as Figments) can't make something seem to be something else, or to not be (that's the domain of Glammers) - so you can't Image the BBEG into looking like you, make a pit that's not real, and so on with the standard image spells.




I partially disagree.  I agree you cannot make the BBEG look like you.  However, I think you can make a pit that's not real.  You cannot make a creature appear to be another creature, but I think it's well within the intent of a spells to make it appear as if there is a pit on a stone floor.  Otherwise, you couldn't make ANYTHING with a figment spell, since every illusion is making in the very least the air around you look like something else.



> For example, you put up an Illusory Wall of Stone....




Perfect example of what I mean.  If there was a hallway, and you make it look like it is instead a dead end using that illusory wall of stone, you have in a sense "made something seem to be something else."  But I really don't think that is what the author's intent was with that sentence in the general figment description.  I think they mean make something [which is currently being interacted with (like a creature, or their weapon)] seem to be something else".  I think you can make an illusion of anything in empty space or around or on top of an unattended object, like the ground or a wall or a door.


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## KarinsDad (Apr 3, 2007)

lukelightning said:
			
		

> One big problem with illusions is that a relatively simple spellcraft check will ruin it. "never mind...that wizard is casting _major image_, just ignore whatever appears...."




That is one of the biggest problems.

Some problems that really prevent image spells from being useful without special DM allowances are:

1) The one you mentioned. Spellcraft is the bane of image spells being cast without Still Spell and Silent Spell metamagic and even then, someone could wonder if an illusion was cast. It makes image spells virtually worthless if cast during combat, especially for spell casters ("A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw.").

2) Image spells have no tactile component. It is easy to discover that an illusionary wall is an illusion, just by touching it. The chance of detecting that it is an illusion is 100% because one cannot touch it. ("A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw."). Ditto for all other images like an image of an archer. Put an arrow through him or touch him and you have proof he isn't really there.

3) Figments and patterns totally disappear to someone viewing them (i.e. they just see an outline), hence, the moment one discovers the illusionary wall is the moment he can see whatever is hidden behind it.

4) One cannot really cast an illusion of summoning a creature since image spells are a standard action and summoning spells are one round casting time.

5) Image spells do not state that they can be changed on the fly with the exception of language and movement. They can be moved (within their area), but they cannot appear and disappear via concentration. There are no image spells that state that they allow you to change the illusion so that it looks different (such as a halfling becoming a giant or a spell caster disappearing). Changing them might seem reasonable, but they do not actually state that they have this capability. Mistwell is adding that capability to Image spells in some of his examples.

6) The rules on illusions are contradictory: "A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. (It is not a personalized mental impression.)" and "Like a figment, a pattern spell creates an image that others can see, but a pattern also affects the minds of those who see it or are caught in it. All patterns are mind-affecting spells." and "A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline." Some illusions are mental and some are not, but both figments and patterns are treated as mental images (i.e. they are not real light and sound and can be seen through). Figments show an image that is not there, Glamers change something that is there, but the translucent rule is not the same for both. Why? It doesn't make sense.


Illusions should be like holodeck images. They should be actual sound and light and force, not fake sound and light and force that can sometimes be ignored with enough willpower and sometimes not. If one makes the save, he should notice imperfections and know it is an illusion, but he should not just see through it.

The higher level ones should also have tactile components so that a character can affect the illusion and it can affect him. An illusionary fighter should be able to do damage and be damaged.


The fact that this list was put together shows the extreme lack of utility and lack of good rules mechanics of image spells (non-image illusions like Invisibility have plenty of utility). If the illusion rules (and specifically, the image spells) were better designed, people would come up with thousands of good uses for images, not dozens.

For example, #29 in the list is literally by RAW not allowed which means that the image is known to be non-threatening and hence, known to be an image.


PS. #8 is questionable. Technically, illusions have no tactile component and the target should know this immediately if he does not have a helmet on and it should at best be a free action to reach for the sack and have it disappear completely.

#11 is not really doable. One can move an image, but one cannot (significantly) change it.

#19 has extremely limited area (i.e. to get a decent range, it takes most of the 10 foot area effects and hence, a target could often be out of range by stepping 10 feet to the side, arrows disappearing is a big clue that it is an illusion).

The Fighter cannot draw on an image as per #28 and the spell caster cannot make it change.


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## Mistwell (Apr 3, 2007)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> That is one of the biggest problems.
> 
> Some problems that really prevent image spells from being useful without special DM allowances are:
> 
> 1) The one you mentioned. Spellcraft is the bane of image spells being cast without Still Spell and Silent Spell metamagic and even then, someone could wonder if an illusion was cast. It makes image spells virtually worthless if cast during combat, especially for spell casters ("A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw.").




Most opponents do not have ranks in spellcraft.  Those who do may well detect it, but then they have to communicate it to others, and the others simply get a bonus to detect it then.  Also, spellcasters that specialize in illusions tend to have silent spell (still spell is not as necessary in my opinion).  Indeed, the best illusionist PRC comes with silent spell already automatically on all his illusion spells (Shadowcraft Mage).  



> 2) Image spells have no tactile component. It is easy to discover that an illusionary wall is an illusion, just by touching it. The chance of detecting that it is an illusion is 100% because one cannot touch it. ("A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw."). Ditto for all other images like an image of an archer. Put an arrow through him or touch him and you have proof he isn't really there.




How many opponents do you know that take an action in the middle of combat to touch all walls to make sure they are real?  

As for the archer, the more advanced figment spells can have the illusion react appropriately to an attack.



> 3) Figments and patterns totally disappear to someone viewing them (i.e. they just see an outline), hence, the moment one discovers the illusionary wall is the moment he can see whatever is hidden behind it.




Indeed.  Not sure why this is a point against figments in general.  If you overcome a spell, you overcome a spell.  Same for most spells.



> 4) One cannot really cast an illusion of summoning a creature since image spells are a standard action and summoning spells are one round casting time.




Are you seriously saying your opponents will notice if you take a full round action or a standard action to summon the creature, and therefore will assume it is an illusion if you take a standard action?  Wow, now there is a DM that would learn to regret meta-gaming real quick, as there are many ways to get a creature going without a full round action, and assuming that creature is an illusion will generally mean you ignore it and hence lose your dex bonus to AC.  In fact, that would be the sort of DM that is begging for shadow illusions that are close to 100% real if disbelieved.   Not to mention, you COULD take a full round action to cast it if you really think this is an issue.  But, I think most DMs will not.



> 5) Image spells do not state that they can be changed on the fly with the exception of language and movement. They can be moved (within their area), but they cannot appear and disappear via concentration. There are no image spells that state that they allow you to change the illusion so that it looks different (such as a halfling becoming a giant or a spell caster disappearing). Changing them might seem reasonable, but they do not actually state that they have this capability. Mistwell is adding that capability to Image spells in some of his examples.




First, I added nothing to nothing.  Those are not my examples, and I said that in the post.  I just keep a list of other people's examples.  Second, it doesn't say you can't, and therefore I list them because some DMs will allow that (and some will not).



> 6) The rules on illusions are contradictory: "A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. (It is not a personalized mental impression.)" and "Like a figment, a pattern spell creates an image that others can see, but a pattern also affects the minds of those who see it or are caught in it. All patterns are mind-affecting spells." and "A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline." Some illusions are mental and some are not, but both figments and patterns are treated as mental images (i.e. they are not real light and sound and can be seen through). Figments show an image that is not there, Glamers change something that is there, but the translucent rule is not the same for both. Why? It doesn't make sense.
> 
> Illusions should be like holodeck images. They should be actual sound and light and force, not fake sound and light and force that can sometimes be ignored with enough willpower and sometimes not. If one makes the save, he should notice imperfections and know it is an illusion, but he should not just see through it.




Not sure why this is a drawback for figments, or addresses how to use figments creatively.



> The higher level ones should also have tactile components so that a character can affect the illusion and it can affect him. An illusionary fighter should be able to do damage and be damaged.




They do, however when they become that higher level to do that damage, their type changes from figment to shadow.  Shadow Evocation and Shadow Conjuration, and the Shadowcraft Mage power Shadow Illusion, all do this.



> The fact that this list was put together shows the extreme lack of utility and lack of good rules mechanics of image spells (non-image illusions like Invisibility have plenty of utility). If the illusion rules (and specifically, the image spells) were better designed, people would come up with thousands of good uses for images, not dozens.




The list doesn't show anything about anything, and I think you know that was a serious stretch.  People HAVE come up with thousands of good uses for images, and not dozens.  This isn't some comprehensive list.  It's just the act of one guy (me) to make a vague half-hearted effort to list some of the interesting uses for a type of spell that he has seen.  I mean, what the heck were you thinking elevating this one thread to somehow the level of "this is the totality of all that people have ever been able to do with these kinds of spells, and because this list is not that long, it means the spells have no utility"? 



> For example, #29 in the list is literally by RAW not allowed which means that the image is known to be non-threatening and hence, known to be an image.




Um, at the time the list was composed there was not RAW on the topic I believe.  And it DID say that some DMs will not allow that item, back when it was written.  You need to chill out a bit dude.  It's just some stuff I have seen people suggest over time that I copied and pasted onto a list and posted in a message.  That's it.



> PS. #8 is questionable. Technically, illusions have no tactile component and the target should know this immediately if he does not have a helmet on and it should at best be a free action to reach for the sack and have it disappear completely.




I agree, not a trick I would use, but some DMs might make it a move action at least (similar to stowing or retrieving a weapon).



> #11 is not really doable. One can move an image, but one cannot (significantly) change it.




I disagree.  The text of programmed image and persistent image suggests to me that figments are capable of quite a lot of change.  And, I think many DMs allow an illusion to change, particularly if it is in line with the creature that the image is representing.  If you make a figment of a dragon, I think a lot of DMs will allow the illusion to breath fire (within the range of the spell of course).



> #19 has extremely limited area (i.e. to get a decent range, it takes most of the 10 foot area effects and hence, a target could often be out of range by stepping 10 feet to the side, arrows disappearing is a big clue that it is an illusion).




Four 10-ft. cubes + one 10-ft. cube/level.  You really think that is extremely limited area? Not me.  Not too hard to guess which general part of the room your opponents are most likely to be in during most of the battle.



> The Fighter cannot draw on an image as per #28 and the spell caster cannot make it change.




Again, I disagree, and I think many DMs allow figments to change.  This isn't a rules debate KarinsDad, it's a list that some people may find useful for their games.  If a particular DM doesn't allow images to change like you don't let them do, they can ignore that item on the list.  But some DMs do allow it, hence it is on the list.

Did you have something positive to contribute to the thread?


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## Plane Sailing (Apr 3, 2007)

I think it is certainly OK to highlight limitations (real or potential) with illusion spells in the thread, although in the spirit of the original post it would be nice if we can concentrate on talking about the things illusions *can* be used for, and not just the things they *can't* be used for!

Thanks


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## Jondor_Battlehammer (Apr 3, 2007)

To save the life of someone wrongfully accused, create an image of a man being killed, hangman, axe, guillotine, etc. The politically powerful foe commanding the death looks on from the royal palace far above would have no chance to interact with the image.


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## Jack Simth (Apr 3, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> I partially disagree.  I agree you cannot make the BBEG look like you.  However, I think you can make a pit that's not real.  You cannot make a creature appear to be another creature, but I think it's well within the intent of a spells to make it appear as if there is a pit on a stone floor.



If you're making the illusion of a pit, you're making the illusion that there's no floor at that spot.  If you can do that, why not an illusion of empty air where you're standing (it's an illusion of an empty room, empty hallway, empty field, or whatever)?  Silent Image shouldn't be able to duplicate Invisibility.

A Wall or creature is strictly additive - you're making something appear to be where something is not.  


			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> Otherwise, you couldn't make ANYTHING with a figment spell, since every illusion is making in the very least the air around you look like something else.



When was the last time you saw normal air?  Smoke, steam, or something in the air, sure; but under normal circumstances, you don't see air.  Thus, you're not changing it's visual qualities.  You're being strictly additive.


			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> Perfect example of what I mean.  If there was a hallway, and you make it look like it is instead a dead end using that illusory wall of stone, you have in a sense "made something seem to be something else."  But I really don't think that is what the author's intent was with that sentence in the general figment description.  I think they mean make something [which is currently being interacted with (like a creature, or their weapon)] seem to be something else".  I think you can make an illusion of anything in empty space or around or on top of an unattended object, like the ground or a wall or a door.



Cool.  So I make an illusion that the unattended door is invisible from this side only, and look through to see what's on the other side.

How's that different from a Figment of a pit trap?


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## Plane Sailing (Apr 3, 2007)

I have a rule of thumb that I've always applied to illusions - and that is that you can make an illusion of 'something' but not 'nothing'.

So I'd never allow an illusion of a pit, but I'd allow an illusion of a normal floor over a pit. I'd allow an illusion of a bridge where none existed, but I wouldn't allow the illusion to change the position of the real bridge (you would have to use the invisibility spell to hide the real bridge).

I've found this to be a useful rule of thumb.


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 3, 2007)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> So I'd never allow an illusion of a pit...




It's possible to make a strictly additive illusion of a pit... but only if you know exactly where the observers will be looking from!







-Hyp.


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## KarinsDad (Apr 3, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> Not sure why this is a drawback for figments, or addresses how to use figments creatively.




It is a contradiction of figments. They are not mental images, but someone can mentally overcome them. It's illogical. If everyone sees the same thing, they should see the same thing.

For example, someone outside the area of effect of an illusion should either not see the illusion at all (if it is fake light) because the magic of the illusion itself should not extend beyond the area of effect, or the magic should create real light, allow characters outside the area of effect to view the image, and the concept of translucent outlines if a save is made (from outside the area of effect) should not exist (because it is real light).

As designed, it is an illogical rules construct and hence, should be fixed.



			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> Again, I disagree, and I think many DMs allow figments to change.  This isn't a rules debate KarinsDad, it's a list that some people may find useful for their games.  If a particular DM doesn't allow images to change like you don't let them do, they can ignore that item on the list.  But some DMs do allow it, hence it is on the list.




This is a rules forum. If you wanted a general discussion on illusions, why didn't you post it in the general discussion forum?

So, you (inappropriately) discuss general stuff here and I'll (appropriately) discuss rules.



			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> Did you have something positive to contribute to the thread?




I did. I posted weaknesses of the image rules which allow other DMs to make adjustments if they so desire.

Just because I did not post what you wanted me to does not mean I did not contribute positive stuff to the thread.


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## Piratecat (Apr 3, 2007)

Folks, you are hijacking the thread.  Please stop doing so. If you want to talk about the minutiae of illusion rules, there's a whole rules forum for you out there -- but this thread is about how to use illusions in creative ways. That's what it should stay focused on.

Karinsdad, a moderator has already weighed in that this thread is fine here. We do not appreciate "junior modding," as seen in your last post.  Don't do this, please. If you think a thread is in the wrong forum, the easiest thing to do is to report it so that a moderator can move the thread if needed.

As always, email me if this is somehow a problem.


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## lukelightning (Apr 3, 2007)

There's always the good old "illusion...illusion...real" trick. For example, send an illusionary version of your party to attack an enemy lair. They quickly realize it's an illusion. Do it again...illusion. Then you _really_ attack them...


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## Mistwell (Apr 3, 2007)

Jack Simth said:
			
		

> Cool.  So I make an illusion that the unattended door is invisible from this side only, and look through to see what's on the other side.
> 
> How's that different from a Figment of a pit trap?




You cannot ACTUALLY make the door invisible.  First, because invisible isn't an object, creature, or force I don't think (though I would list a pit as one of those, since it has light and shading, texture, look to the structure such as stones which recede in size as they go down, a bunch of spikes in the bottom, maybe a dead body in the bottom, a set of trap doors already sprung and swinging at the top, etc...).  But second, even if you could, unless you know what to make the illusion look like for the other side of the door, you're just in a sense making up what would be on the other side of the door.  Much like the pit.  It's not a real pit, and you have no idea what would happen if you made a real pit in that spot, since you have no way of knowing if there is another floor below you.  It's just a figment of an image YOU make up.


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## KarinsDad (Apr 3, 2007)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> It's possible to make a strictly additive illusion of a pit... but only if you know exactly where the observers will be looking from!




This assumes that illusions are limited to real world physics. Couldn't your example show the back of the guy's head from the POV of the guy kneeling on the bricks if this were a magical illusion?


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 3, 2007)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> This assumes that illusions are limited to real world physics. Couldn't your example show the back of the guy's head from the POV of the guy kneeling on the bricks if this were a magical illusion?




Above ground level, certainly; 'below' ground level, I'd say no, because both people will be looking at the 'picture' on the flat surface from 'above'.  There is no 'in front' and 'behind', because it's not a 3-dimensional image; if it were 3-D, it would not be visible, because it would be inside the floor.

Since both people are looking at the picture from above, they'll both see the same thing; it can't show one thing to observer A and a different one to observer B.  The difference is that the perspective that works well for observer A will be completely messed up for observer B.

-Hyp.


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## Pielorinho (Apr 3, 2007)

I love illusion magic. *Karinsdad's* points are well taken, but they can be expressed in positive guidelines as well as in negatives:

* Use illusions against non-magic-using opponents.  Animals, magical beasts (for the most part), fighter types, many undead, and the like are great targets for illusion magic.  Keep in mind that when you use them in this sense, you don't need to duplicate actual spell effects.  If you create a spikey wall atop which fiery spearment wait for the enemy's advance (an effective illusion I once created), the low-Int undead that are attacking you won't know that this isn't a core sorcerer spell; if you summon a huge elemental with a standard-action illusion, many warriors will have no idea that this is impossible (and even a spellcaster who fails the Spellcraft check may figure you have a funky power that enables this effect).
* Illusions are best when the enemy isn't going to think to interact with them.  A wall of fire used to keep a rat horde at bay is effective (as i found in a game that I DMed).  A wall of fire used to surround a PC to keep him out of hte battle is not effective (again, as I found in a game I ran:  PCs are generally more suicidal than rats and therefore more willing to leap through the wall of fire).
* Subtle effect illusions are wonderful.  I love the idea of squeezing up against a wall and casting a wall over the opening to prevent an attack.  I once DMed a game in which first-level PCs survived the attack of a huge animated object by using exactly this trick.  The animated object had no reason at all to interact with the wall behind which they hid, and so it received no save.
* In general, an illusion is best at wasting an emey's time for a round or two.  When I DM, my very vague rule of thumb is that an illusion ought to waste at least one round for at least one enemy unless it was cast very stupidly.  The more clever the illusion and the more appropriate to the situation, the more powerful it can be.  It's definitely a school of magic that rewards the imaginative player, and I think that's perfectly appropriate.

Daniel


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## Mistwell (Apr 3, 2007)

Hyp, I see what you mean that the pit looks different depending on where you are standing (see pic).  However, I really think you are overthinking this.


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 3, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> However, I really think you are overthinking this.




Well, my reading of figments is that you're effectively building a three-dimensional picture.  You can't make a three-dimensional picture of a hole in the ground, because nobody will be able to see it - the ground gets in the way!  You _can_ make a two-dimensional picture of a hole and lay it on top of the ground (where the ground won't obscure it), but the problem with it is that such a picture has a fixed perspective, and if you look at it from the wrong angle, it doesn't work.

(Like the faux-3D advertising they paint onto sports fields.  If the camera's shooting from the 'standard' angle, they pop out of your screen.  If it's shooting from the wrong angle, they just look distorted.)

-Hyp.


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## Mistwell (Apr 3, 2007)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Well, my reading of figments is that you're effectively building a three-dimensional picture.  You can't make a three-dimensional picture of a hole in the ground, because nobody will be able to see it - the ground gets in the way!  You _can_ make a two-dimensional picture of a hole and lay it on top of the ground (where the ground won't obscure it), but the problem with it is that such a picture has a fixed perspective, and if you look at it from the wrong angle, it doesn't work.
> 
> (Like the faux-3D advertising they paint onto sports fields.  If the camera's shooting from the 'standard' angle, they pop out of your screen.  If it's shooting from the wrong angle, they just look distorted.)
> 
> -Hyp.




Yes I agree with you on both counts.  You are laying a 2D image on top of a 3D floor, and in real life such a thing would look wrong if looked at from the wrong angle.  And I am saying I think that is asking too much reality from your magic spells.  It's just a square on a battlemat that has a pit illusion on it, perhaps with a pit trap dungeon tile like this:






Most people are not going to care a whole lot of the theoretical ramifications of the physics of the thing.  It's just an image of a pit, probably one of the most common uses of the silent image spell.


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 3, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> It's just an image of a pit, probably one of the most common uses of the silent image spell.




Not in my game!

From two squares away, that looks like an incredibly shallow pit with amazingly short spikes!

-Hyp.


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## Mistwell (Apr 3, 2007)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Not in my game!
> 
> From two squares away, that looks like an incredibly shallow pit with amazingly short spikes!
> 
> -Hyp.




Interestingly, I think the Rules of the Game article on illusions agrees with you:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060228a



> *  You wish to draw some bad guys into an ambush by creating a false oasis in the desert.
> 
> You cannot use a figment to make empty sand look like an oasis. You still can create an illusory oasis with one or more figment effects. You can create an illusory pool of water to fill a depression in the sand, and you can sprinkle the area with illusory palm trees and undergrowth.
> 
> If the area is very flat, you won't be able to create a believable figment pool of water, but you might get away with a spring where water bubbles to the surface and soaks back into the sand.




So perhaps what we have here is a failure of imagination.  Can anyone think of a way to use a silent image spell to create a barrier similar to the barrier represented by a pit, but in a way that would be more believeable?  

Perhaps a pool of bubbling lava is the dungeon equivelent of the bubbling spring mentioned in the article example....


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## The Edge (Apr 3, 2007)

These ideas are great. I can't think of anymore good ideas over these right now, so I'll add this. The most mature use of magic ever concieved. Use Ghost Sound to make other people seem to fart or other such noises. Great fun for all the party, whether with the locals in the tavern, or the snooty countess at her grand dinner party.   

Perhaps interupt the BBEG in his minologueing?


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 3, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> Perhaps a pool of bubbling lava is the dungeon equivelent of the bubbling spring mentioned in the article example....




Right - something that provides a barrier you don't _want_ to interact with, but which sits at ground level.  Bubbling lava, effervescent acid (opaque, not transparent), boiling mud, green slime or black pudding... something which could conceivably fill a hole.

Another possibility is Spike Stones, but as with the Wall of Fire Pielorinho mentioned, there's too much risk someone will just 'suck it up' and barrel through anyway.

Hard to go wrong with green slime, I think 

-Hyp.


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## Bagpuss (Apr 4, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> So perhaps what we have here is a failure of imagination.  Can anyone think of a way to use a silent image spell to create a barrier similar to the barrier represented by a pit, but in a way that would be more believable?




A field of caltrops. 
A row of fighters with spears set verse charge.

Either of those is likely to make your enemy think twice before charging you at least, and are more likely to appear in a dungeon they are familiar with than a sudden river of lava.

Problem with lava is you can't simulate the heat that would come off it, same with a Wall of Fire. Mud tends to smell, and bubbling gives of heat as well.


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 4, 2007)

Bagpuss said:
			
		

> A row of fighters with spears set verse charge.




That's not 'a creature', though.



> Problem with lava is you can't simulate the heat that would come off it, same with a Wall of Fire. Mud tends to smell, and bubbling gives of heat as well.




True - you're after Major Image for those.

-Hyp.


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## Wilphe (Apr 4, 2007)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Well, my reading of figments is that you're effectively building a three-dimensional picture.  You can't make a three-dimensional picture of a hole in the ground, because nobody will be able to see it - the ground gets in the way!




or,
if you are fighting Low INT Low WIS enemies,
you could create an three dimensional image of your #### and they'll think it's a hole in the ground...





I'll get my coat


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 4, 2007)

Wilphe said:
			
		

> or,
> if you are fighting Low INT Low WIS enemies,
> you could create an three dimensional image of your #### and they'll think it's a hole in the ground...




It's _theirs_ they usually can't distinguish, isn't it?

Of course, there's always this image to represent a hole in the ground:
http://naturecureresources.com/hundred dollar bill.jpg

-Hyp.


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## KarinsDad (Apr 4, 2007)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Since both people are looking at the picture from above, they'll both see the same thing; it can't show one thing to observer A and a different one to observer B.  The difference is that the perspective that works well for observer A will be completely messed up for observer B.




When your PC looks at an NPC fighter from behind, does he see the front of the fighter instead?

When your PC looks at an image of an NPC fighter from behind, does he see the front of the fighter instead?

I think you are limiting the image spells in ways that the designers did not really intend.  The sentence:



> A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment.




could be interpreted that the views (or angles) of the images are all absolutely identical, but I do not think that was what the sentence meant. Especially when you read the follow up sentence:



> (It is not a personalized mental impression.)




What I think this means is that a figment of a monster looks like the same monster to all observers, but not the same angle of the same monster to all observers. It's a figment of a troll, a creature behind it would see the back of the troll, not the front whereas a creature in front of the troll would see the front side of the troll, not the back.


Figments are illusions of real (at least real in the game) objects (or creatures or forces) and theoretically give off light in different directions as if a real object were there.

Otherwise, images would be even more lame than the poorly designed rules currently state.


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 4, 2007)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> When your PC looks at an NPC fighter from behind, does he see the front of the fighter instead?
> 
> When your PC looks at an image of an NPC fighter from behind, does he see the front of the fighter instead?




No, and that's exactly my point.

If all viewers saw the same thing _regardless of their angle_ - that is, people looking at the image from 180 degrees apart both saw the fighter's face - then the 'fake perspective overlay' trick could work from all directions.

But since they don't, it can't; the viewers see the illusion as if it were an actual object.

And an actual object mimicking a hole via clever perspective tricks on a 2D overlay only works from a certain direction.  Since the illusion mimics the actual object, it will behave in the same way.



> What I think this means is that a figment of a monster looks like the same monster to all observers, but not the same angle of the same monster to all observers. It's a figment of a troll, a creature behind it would see the back of the troll, not the front whereas a creature in front of the troll would see the front side of the troll, not the back.




Absolutely.

And a figment of a fake-perspective overlay looks like the same fake-perspective overlay to all observers, but not the same angle of the same fake-perspective overlay to all observers. Observers in front see a hole.  Observers behind see a distorted image that just looks wrong.

Thus:






Now, in this case, the figment has an advantage - anything projecting _above_ the ground can be 3D, so it's not necessary for the leg to stretch so far along the ground.  But anything projecting _below_ the ground can't be 3D; it must be fake-perspective, and is thus subject to viewing angle limitations.

Another example:









-Hyp.


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## Mistwell (Apr 4, 2007)

Of course, if you know your opponents are coming at you from a particular direction down a hallway, it will work pretty well up to a point...


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 4, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> Of course, if you know your opponents are coming at you from a particular direction down a hallway, it will work pretty well up to a point...




Right.  Although not perfectly - as you get closer, you _should_ see more of the 'depth' of the pit, and you won't... unless the caster is altering the image on the fly.

-Hyp.


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## Bagpuss (Apr 4, 2007)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> That's not 'a creature', though.




Okay one Angry barbarian with a spiked chain then.


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## lukelightning (Apr 4, 2007)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Another possibility is Spike Stones, but as with the Wall of Fire Pielorinho mentioned, there's too much risk someone will just 'suck it up' and barrel through anyway.




_Spike stones_ are virtually invisible. In fact, only rogues (or other classes with the trapfinding ability) even have a chance of finding them, with a _search[i/] check. You can't just look and see them.

Also, regarding the sidewalk art optical illusions: Those only work if you lack depth perception. They work fine in photos or in real life if you close one eye, but otherwise your depth perception will ruin the effect._


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## KarinsDad (Apr 4, 2007)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> No, and that's exactly my point.
> 
> If all viewers saw the same thing _regardless of their angle_ - that is, people looking at the image from 180 degrees apart both saw the fighter's face - then the 'fake perspective overlay' trick could work from all directions.
> 
> ...




And this is where I think you are incorrectly overanalyzing this.

A (real) hole looks like a hole, regardless of angle. What is seen is slightly different, but it still looks like a hole.

A figment is not a 2D representation of a 3D image like the pretty pictures you posted, it is a 3D representation of a 3D image. It does this via magic.

Hence, a figment of a hole (or pit) looks like a hole. If there is a rung ladder on one side of it, characters from one angle would see the rungs, characters from a different angle would not.

I do agree with one thing you said:



> the viewers see the illusion as if it were an actual object




Precisely.

An image of a pit (which for intents and purposes is a rectangular or cylindrical shape of the inside of an object, e.g. the ground) is viewed by all as if it were an actual pit, regardless of angle of view.

The fact that a pit is the interior side of an object (as opposed to see the exterior side of an object such as the image of a Fighter) should not change how the magic works.


And the definition of figments spells do not explicitly call out examples of such a strange 2D representation of a 3D image, hence, this non-intuitive view of it cannot be what the designers envisioned. It's magic. It is meant to fool senses, regardless of what object the image is representing.

The 2D representation might have to be done in the real world to get the proper 3D effect, but we are talking magic here. It does not have to be limited in this way, nor does the definition of figments in the book state such a thing.


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## Plane Sailing (Apr 4, 2007)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> And this is where I think you are incorrectly overanalyzing this.
> 
> A (real) hole looks like a hole, regardless of angle. What is seen is slightly different, but it still looks like a hole.




I'm with Hyp here - because I don't think an illusion can make something look like nothing - if there is a real hole, the illusion can't provide a pit effect because the ground gets in the way. If you did a 3d representation of a pit, everything below the ground would be lost anyway (even if you didn't say that 'line of effect' prevented it appearing below the ground level).

A pit isn't an object - it is the lack of an object, possibly with other additional decorations on the side or bottom.


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## lukelightning (Apr 4, 2007)

I am of the mind that you _can_ make an illusion of a pit, since illusions are so weak.  Yeah, this might start problems with stuff like "can you make an illusion to replicate invisibility?" but I'd just say no, you can't. Why? Uh, I dunno. But the Mages of Mysteris with their 13 ranks of spellcraft could surely explain.


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## Mistwell (Apr 4, 2007)

lukelightning said:
			
		

> I am of the mind that you _can_ make an illusion of a pit, since illusions are so weak.  Yeah, this might start problems with stuff like "can you make an illusion to replicate invisibility?" but I'd just say no, you can't. Why? Uh, I dunno. But the Mages of Mysteris with their 13 ranks of spellcraft could surely explain.




I think what you mean to say is that you cannot make a figment of invisibility, not an illusion of invisibility.  Invisibility is in fact an illusion spell.


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## lukelightning (Apr 4, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> I think what you mean to say is that you cannot make a figment of invisibility, not an illusion of invisibility.  Invisibility is in fact an illusion spell.




Yeah, what you said.  Hey, what about invisible figments? Things that can only be seen by someone with _see invisibility_?  That could be a dirty trick... the enemy wizard turns invisible. You cast _see invisibility_ and see him.... and a bunch of "invisible" demon minions or something like that.


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## Mistwell (Apr 4, 2007)

So what sorts of illusions can people think of that could be done with the silent image spell that would be likely to deter opponents from pursuing by that route, but which are not a "wall", and apparently which are not a spiked pit.  We have a creature, and bubbling lava pit (though that will have no heat and no scent, so it won't deter anyone for long).  Anything else?


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## Deset Gled (Apr 4, 2007)

One fun tactic I've seen is to take a mundane object (like a spot of the floor, or a statue), and to create an illusion over it of the exact same thing.  This will drive players with Detect Magic or Arcane Sight nuts, as they will see that the spot is magic, but whenever they attempt to see through the illusion, the see the exact same thing.

Also, its not techinically an illusion, but you can have a lot of fun with a set of full plate with multiple Continual Flame spells on it.  The description of a creature engulfed in flame running at a party can be great, especially when they later find out it was just a kobold.  This works even better with creatures that have Cold immunities, as many players will automatically use those types of attacks.


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 4, 2007)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> Hence, a figment of a hole (or pit) looks like a hole. If there is a rung ladder on one side of it, characters from one angle would see the rungs, characters from a different angle would not.




I would be more than happy for you to put a figment of a spiked pit with a rung ladder inside a real hole in the ground.

But I don't understand how you could put one inside a solid floor.  My objections are the same two Plane Sailing mentioned: 1. you don't have line of effect to the majority of the volume of your image, and even if you did, 2. people can't see it, 'cos there's a floor in the way.

If I cast an illusion of an orc on the other side of that wall, you can't see him - there's a wall in the way.

If I cast an illusion of a pit under this floor, you can't see it - there's a floor in the way.

-Hyp.


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## sirwmholder (Apr 4, 2007)

So HyperSmurf, does that mean it would be best to cast a 'glowy illusion' on top of the floor... to memic a poorly constructed illusion over top a pit trap when it's just really a floor?  Even if they disbelieve the illusion it looks like a floor... then they would believe they saw the 'covering' finally fall into place over a very obvious pit trap... thus buying the PC's time to retreat down the hallway while the pursuers test the ordinary floor.

Interesting idea,
William Holder


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## sirwmholder (Apr 4, 2007)

On the topic of Illusion ideas my favorite was a complete replica of the BBEG's lair that was sealed off and a 'secret map' showed the location.  The PC's scryed into it and saw the BBEG barking orders and pacing around his great room.  The party had the mage teleport everyone inside. Once inside it was truly sealed off... there was no air. The BBEG was a persistent Illusion and the map was planted by him to kill the PC's... needless to say it worked. 

Good gaming,
William Holder


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## lukelightning (Apr 4, 2007)

How about an illusion of a patch of the dreaded green slime?


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 4, 2007)

lukelightning said:
			
		

> How about an illusion of a patch of the dreaded green slime?




Hey, yeah!

-Hyp.


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## KarinsDad (Apr 5, 2007)

sirwmholder said:
			
		

> On the topic of Illusion ideas my favorite was a complete replica of the BBEG's lair that was sealed off and a 'secret map' showed the location.  The PC's scryed into it and saw the BBEG barking orders and pacing around his great room.  The party had the mage teleport everyone inside. Once inside it was truly sealed off... there was no air. The BBEG was a persistent Illusion and the map was planted by him to kill the PC's... needless to say it worked.




1) So, after casting the Persistent Image, how did the BBEG remove the air from the room? Wish?

2) How does one Scry on a location instead of a creature?

3) The duration of Persistent Image is one round per level. How did the BBEG know when to cast it, then cast Teleport to get out of the room (he had to be in the sealed room in order to have line of effect for Persistent Image), and then cast Wish to remove the air from the room?


It sounds like the DM screwed over the players and hand waved away some rules doing it.


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## KarinsDad (Apr 5, 2007)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> If I cast an illusion of a pit under this floor, you can't see it - there's a floor in the way.




I buy this argument for a figment image since figments cannot affect objects (e.g. the floor).

However, how about a glamer? Would Mirage Arcana allow a caster to craft a pit with a rung ladder where characters from some angles see the rungs, whereas characters from a different angle cannot? It can alter structures. Can it alter the floor to look like a pit?

If not, why not?


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 5, 2007)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> However, how about a glamer? Would Mirage Arcana allow a caster to craft a pit with a rung ladder where characters from some angles see the rungs, whereas characters from a different angle cannot? It can alter structures. Can it alter the floor to look like a pit?




Well, we know that invisibility is within the purview of a glamer, so I wouldn't discount the possibility out of hand.

When Hallucinatory Terrain says "You make natural terrain look, sound, and smell like some other sort of natural terrain", does it allow for, say, making a small hill look like a small valley?  Would people on one side of the hill be able to see people on the other side of the hill, when it would normally block their sight line?

Does Mirage Arcana's 'altering the appearance of a structure' include see-thru-ness?  For example, if I make the tower look like a collapsed tower, can I see through where the tower stood, but the collapsed tower does not?

Since it's a glamer, I'm inclined to say yes, the tower works... but I'm not so sure about the hill.  How does line of effect work with terrain?  If I have line of effect to the grass, does that mean I can affect 'the terrain' right down to the rock ten feet down, despite the ten feet of earth in between?

-Hyp.


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## KarinsDad (Apr 5, 2007)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Since it's a glamer, I'm inclined to say yes, the tower works... but I'm not so sure about the hill.  How does line of effect work with terrain?  If I have line of effect to the grass, does that mean I can affect 'the terrain' right down to the rock ten feet down, despite the ten feet of earth in between?




Well, since glamers can make things seem to disappear and Mirage Arcana can make structures seem to change, I think the (surface of the) ground can be affected, just like any other large object in the area of effect.

Hallucinatory Terrain also should have the power to make a hill look like a valley, otherwise, it is merely additive (and the spell does not quite call out that limitation). Someone would find out real quick for such an illusion that they are "walking on air" instead of down into the valley.

With regard to line of effect, I agree that line of effect prevents the area from extending into the ground. But, it is not the ground below the surface that is being affected, it is the surface layer of ground. The surface is glamered, not the ground underneath.


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 5, 2007)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> With regard to line of effect, I agree that line of effect prevents the area from extending into the ground. But, it is not the ground below the surface that is being affected, it is the surface layer of ground. The surface is glamered, not the ground underneath.




But doesn't that mean you're stuck once again with a 2D overlay, not a 3D contruction?

-Hyp.


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## KarinsDad (Apr 5, 2007)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> But doesn't that mean you're stuck once again with a 2D overlay, not a 3D contruction?




Why? It's magic. If glamer magic can make something invisible, it is reasonable that it can represent 3D illusions for glamers, not 2D ones.

Nothing in the glamer rules really indicate such a limitation. Shouldn't it be whatever the caster thinks of?


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## Ltheb Silverfrond (Apr 5, 2007)

Mirage Arcana interacts with line of effect simply; It doesn't change line of effect. (At least it doesn't say so; Do the RAW get a save if interacting with the Mirage?) So if I make a mirage of a wall look like an open field, and you try to blast me because I am on the other side, your spell will hit the "invisible" wall and fail; No line of effect. You might not know theres a wall there, but the "D&D magic-physics" do.


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## sirwmholder (Apr 5, 2007)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> 1) So, after casting the Persistent Image, how did the BBEG remove the air from the room? Wish?
> 
> 2) How does one Scry on a location instead of a creature?
> 
> ...



1) I'm not sure how the BBEG removed the air as I was not DMing at the time... The BBEG was a lich and didn't need air anyway so I've never thought to ask.

2) I may have gotten ahead of myself in the description... the party scryed for the BBEG, being a reoccurring villain we just really wanted to kill him.  The map was used to aid in teleporting us to the location.

3) Again I don't know... maybe a contingency or alarm went off when we scryed on him.

*) That is entirely possible, though we had fun up to the point we died... and we did learn sometimes it's not enough just to look once before you leap. 

William Holder


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## lukelightning (Apr 5, 2007)

How about an illusion spell that makes you semi-tranparent, exactly as if you were a "disbelieved" illusion. First you send some real illusions to bug your enemies...they disbelieve 'em, then you show up like you're an illusion as well.


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## Deset Gled (Apr 5, 2007)

sirwmholder said:
			
		

> 1) I'm not sure how the BBEG removed the air as I was not DMing at the time... The BBEG was a lich and didn't need air anyway so I've never thought to ask.




Removing oxygen from an enclosed space is actually pretty easy, and requires no magic.  Just light a fire.  Once all the oxygen is burned up, the fire will burn out.

/threadjack


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 5, 2007)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> Why? It's magic. If glamer magic can make something invisible, it is reasonable that it can represent 3D illusions for glamers, not 2D ones.




Can a glamer show a different effect to two different observers?  Like the earlier guardsman example - would it be possible for a single glamer to show the guardsman's face in two opposite directions, or would one see his face and the other the back of his head?

-Hyp.


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## Nail (Apr 6, 2007)

Deset Gled said:
			
		

> Removing oxygen from an enclosed space is actually pretty easy, and requires no magic.  Just light a fire.  Once all the oxygen is burned up, the fire will burn out.
> 
> /threadjack



Just in case you care:<Chem Geek Mode=on>

A square room, 30 ft on a side, requires about 200 kg of wood to burn completely to use up all of it's oxygen.

Just in case that's of any use to you.  
</mode>


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## KarinsDad (Apr 6, 2007)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Can a glamer show a different effect to two different observers?  Like the earlier guardsman example - would it be possible for a single glamer to show the guardsman's face in two opposite directions, or would one see his face and the other the back of his head?




I don't understand why it would not be possible to have a face on two sides of a humanoid glamer.


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 6, 2007)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> I don't understand why it would not be possible to have a face on two sides of a humanoid glamer.




And if we had a third observer, perpendicular to the other two, would he see the profiles of both faces?  Or could he also be looking at the image 'front-on', despite it contradicting what the other observers see?

I guess that is the root of my question.  Can Mirage Arcana cause a building to appear as a ruin from the south (allowing observers clear views through the 'wreckage' to the north), but entire from the north (blocking line of sight to people looking southwards)?  In other words, can a glamer 'contradict' itself to different observers, or must it have a self-consistent shape?

-Hyp.


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## Maldor (Apr 6, 2007)

sirwmholder said:
			
		

> On the topic of Illusion ideas my favorite was a complete replica of the BBEG's lair that was sealed off and a 'secret map' showed the location.  The PC's scryed into it and saw the BBEG barking orders and pacing around his great room.  The party had the mage teleport everyone inside. Once inside it was truly sealed off... there was no air. The BBEG was a persistent Illusion and the map was planted by him to kill the PC's... needless to say it worked.
> 
> why didn't you just teleport out
> if he put up a D-lock you can dispell that
> ...


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## Jondor_Battlehammer (Apr 6, 2007)

Create a rift in your dungeon, say 30' across, as deep as you like. Down below can be seen the remnants of an old bridge that has given way. However, dangling from the ceiling are several chains that look as if they once held the bridge up. As "luck" would have it, one of those chains is just inside jumping distance, if you get a good running start...


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## accipiter (Apr 6, 2007)

Wow, very informative and useful thread!  Thank you, Jondor_Battlehammer, for reviving it... my players won't thank you, I'm afraid. 



			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> So what sorts of illusions can people think of that could be done with the silent image spell that would be likely to deter opponents from pursuing by that route, but which are not a "wall", and apparently which are not a spiked pit.  We have a creature, and bubbling lava pit (though that will have no heat and no scent, so it won't deter anyone for long).  Anything else?




Just off the top of my head, I'm thinking I'd make a chest or other loot appear (or augment existing loot with more pieces).  Just to be mean, I'd then have a wall descend slowly from the ceiling of the hall behind the escaping NPC (ala Indiana Jones).  

Or I'd put the illusion of a dead NPC (either the one they're chasing or a henchman they've seen before) on the floor.  They know he's carrying goodies, and with their current obsession with the MIC and constitutional inability to leave any dead bodies unlooted, they'd be bound to at least stop to check it out.

How about a gorgeous woman, tied hand and foot and gagged or unconscious, in a cage about thirty feet off the ground?  My players are pretty chivalrous; they'd probably stop to help her out.  Especially if she looked rich.  Or if the cage looked as if it were about to plummet to the ground...

Or have the tied up captive be someone dear to the PCs.  Especially shocking if the PCs aren't aware that the villain knows them that well (I once had an NPC arrange for a rose to be placed on the pillow of each of the PC's girlfriends -- a subtle warning that he could get to them whenever he wanted.  The PCs were *not* happy).

"This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you."  Forgive the probably dumb question, but what does the 'force' part mean?


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## Mistwell (Apr 6, 2007)

accipiter said:
			
		

> "This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you."  Forgive the probably dumb question, but what does the 'force' part mean?




It's not a dumb question, none of us are too sure about that part.  Maybe similar to a force spell, like magic missle? Or something like fire?


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## Jondor_Battlehammer (Apr 7, 2007)

I think its refering to the force in physics text books. Gravity, motion, etc.


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## KarinsDad (Apr 7, 2007)

accipiter said:
			
		

> "This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you."  Forgive the probably dumb question, but what does the 'force' part mean?




I think it should have been the word "effect". I think the author just foobar-ed.

For example, an illusion of any spell with a visible effect, an illusion of fire, etc.


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## Pielorinho (May 2, 2007)

My favorite villain from my teenaged DMing days was a paranoid duergar illusionist who used all sorts of misdirection and illusions.

For example:  he made very carefully hidden pressure-plates on the floor of his room, then placed clumsily-hidden false pressure plates between them.  PCs saw the false plates, easily avoided them, thereby stepping on the real plates.  Trap sprung!

In a series of labyrinthine tunnels, he drew a small chalk mark at each intersection on one passage.  PCs spotted and followed these marks, right to a trapped room.

A thin, tightly-stretched piece of parchment held apart the trap mechanism in another room.  It was covered with a programmed illusion of a damsel in distress, crying to be freed.  When the PCs approached the illusion, it transformed into a slavering werewolf.  THe PCs attached, of course, ripping the parchment and setting off the trap.

The final room had a bottomless pit, and a passage around either side.  The apparent passage had a 20' gap in it, of which the last 10' was covered by an illusion, enticing PCs to leap over the first 10' in order to make it across.  The real passage was hidden by an illusory wall.

Many of these could be adapted on the fly for PCs.

What about these for stalling illusions?
-THE COYOTE EFFECT:  When a passageway turns, create an illusion against the wall of the passageway continuing (and, if your DM is friendly, yourselves retreating into the distance).  The enemies will only see the illusion from one angle, so any _trompe l'oeil_ effect should work.  Splat!
-BLADE BARRIER:  I think you can no longer make horizontally spinning blades, but virtually no monsters should be confident that this is true.  Make them big and deadly enough, and the enemies might hold back.
-YOURSELF HOLDING SOMETHING REALLY EXPLOSIVE:  Shout, "You SOBs better prepare a raise dead tomorrow!" and cast an illusion of yourself holding a keg of gunpowder (or any equivalent of it in your setting).  The illusion should run toward the enemy if you can do that, or if not, should stand in place waiting and leering.
-YOUR CHARRED CORPSE:  Begin the illusion while the enemy is out of side, with a sound effect of a scream and an explosion.  When they come into view, they should find blasted rocks and a burnt corpse, with no sign of where the damage came from.  Use this one only in a place where the enemy might believe there was a trap that you discharged.

Daniel


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