# Loki! (spoiler thread)



## Morrus

I'm really looking forward to this one! June 11th!


"Picking up immediately after Loki steals the Tesseract (again), he finds himself called before the Time Variance Authority, a bureaucratic organization that exists outside of time and space, forced to answer for his crimes against the timeline and given a choice: face deletion from reality or assist in catching an even greater threat."


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## Istbor

Interesting. I believe I like what I just saw.


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## Paul Farquhar

That is a different flerken to the one in Captain Marvel. Do they all work for the TVA or are they purely interested in the tesseract?


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## Umbran

You _can_ trust Loki.  You can trust Loki to be... Loki.


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## hopeless

You know what would be interesting is if he "rescues" a version of Natasha from Vormir the same way he was "rescued" from his timeline.
After all the divergent time lines he's needed to repair could involve an important back up when the TVA finally decide his usefulness is at an end.


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## Enevhar Aldarion

For everyone who missed the announcement, Loki has been changed from debuting on a Friday each week, and will instead have new episodes airing each Wednesday, starting on June 9th.


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## Imaculata

I'm excited for this. Hiddleston is just brilliant as Loki. And there is a lot of potential for wacky time heist antics.


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## Stalker0

Ultimately I am not a huge fan of the "what if" type scenarios, aka alternate versions of various characters. To me "my loki" had his character arc, and ultimately the god of mischief died for the love of his brother. A cool ending, so I don't want Loki to come back. I would like some character deaths to actually have meaning and not just be fake-outs all the time.

That said, if they are going to do it I think the tv shows are the best venue to do it. You can tell these encapsulated stories that hopefully do not greatly change the MCU like Wandavision and Falcon did. I personally don't want this Loki to go "mainsteam".

Others will of course, its just personal preference.


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## Imaculata

Then again, cheating death is kinda what Loki does.


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## Morrus

And everybody else who has ever been in a comic-book!


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## Mind of tempest

Morrus said:


> And everybody else who has ever been in a comic-book!



death is clearly slacking of in comic books.

I am kinda looking forward to loki as tom seems to just have a great time playing him and crazy time stuff is fun.


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## Janx

Imaculata said:


> Then again, cheating death is kinda what Loki does.



compared to most comic book contrivances to resurrect a character, Loki's made sense.  they time traveled and dropped a Tesseract in front of him.  Of course he's gonna bail. 

Overall for MCU, it would be my hope that they avoid reboots, mostly keep dead people dead, and limit re-using  code-names to new folks (it's gonna happen, but doesn't have to be every initial MCU character).  The comics has a rich catalog of characters, I see no reason why they can't raise a new set of heroes for a decade, retire and transition to the next batch and easily have fifty years worth of un-retconned continuity.


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## hopeless

Made me wonder what if the alternate Loki finds out how he died and secretly replaces himself so he wouldn't be a paradox and hunted by the TVA?
Unlikely but I wondered how that might work out.


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## MarkB

hopeless said:


> Made me wonder what if the alternate Loki finds out how he died and secretly replaces himself so he wouldn't be a paradox and hunted by the TVA?
> Unlikely but I wondered how that might work out.



How would replacing a dead Loki with an alive Loki not be a paradox?


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## Paul Farquhar

Janx said:


> Overall for MCU, it would be my hope that they avoid reboots, mostly keep dead people dead,



Unlike the comics, the MCU has aging actors to cope with, which makes it more likely at least some characters will stay dead.


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## MarkB

Though that becomes less and less of a factor with current facial CGI. You could pretty much build a fully digital actor at this point, with stand-ins for motion capture as needed, and the original performer only needing to provide voice acting. Find someone who can sound enough like them, and you could deepfake an entire character.


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## Mind of tempest

MarkB said:


> Though that becomes less and less of a factor with current facial CGI. You could pretty much build a fully digital actor at this point, with stand-ins for motion capture as needed, and the original performer only needing to provide voice acting. Find someone who can sound enough like them, and you could deepfake an entire character.



in 10 years we are going to end up with zombie actors.


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## doctorbadwolf

Stalker0 said:


> Ultimately I am not a huge fan of the "what if" type scenarios, aka alternate versions of various characters. To me "my loki" had his character arc, and ultimately the god of mischief died for the love of his brother. A cool ending, so I don't want Loki to come back. I would like some character deaths to actually have meaning and not just be fake-outs all the time.
> 
> That said, if they are going to do it I think the tv shows are the best venue to do it. You can tell these encapsulated stories that hopefully do not greatly change the MCU like Wandavision and Falcon did. I personally don't want this Loki to go "mainsteam".
> 
> Others will of course, its just personal preference.



While I don't see this instance as too much of a fake-out, since it ties pretty naturally to what happened in Endgame, I mostly agree. 

That said, I would be down with Kid Loki becoming mainstream MCU, and I would have been a-okay with an actual fake-out in Infinity War revealing Loki faked out Thanos, only to have him turn to dust just as he starts to do that damned grin.


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## Umbran

doctorbadwolf said:


> While I don't see this instance as too much of a fake-out, since it ties pretty naturally to what happened in Endgame, I mostly agree.




Not only that, but even after Thanos killed him, Thor outright tells us that he expects his brother will cheat death _somehow_.  We are set up to expect to see him again in some way, shape, or form.


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## doctorbadwolf

Umbran said:


> Not only that, but even after Thanos killed him, Thor outright tells us that he expects his brother will cheat death _somehow_.  We are set up to expect to see him again in some way, shape, or form.



Yeah. I was kinda disappointed that it ended up being not really the same Loki, and thus not a clever ruse by him, but yeah. Definitely makes sense for Loki to be the character in the situation presented in the show.


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## hopeless

Umbran said:


> Not only that, but even after Thanos killed him, Thor outright tells us that he expects his brother will cheat death _somehow_.  We are set up to expect to see him again in some way, shape, or form.



Imagine Alternate Loki replaced the Loki we thought killed.
So since the original Loki wasn't killed him being alive isn't a paradox after all Thanos travelled from the past and was clicked out of existence by Iron Man instead of being beheaded by Thor.
As it is because he's actually a parallel double of himself the TVA can hunt him because he is a paradox as unlikely as it would be for him to rescue himself doing so should remove him off the TVA's radar.
From what I've heard 



Spoiler



he isn't the only Loki to do so


.
I'm hoping its a great series.


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## Paul Farquhar

doctorbadwolf said:


> Yeah. I was kinda disappointed that it ended up being not really the same Loki, and thus not a clever ruse by him, but yeah. Definitely makes sense for Loki to be the character in the situation presented in the show.



Maybe he did survive, maybe there is more than one Loki...


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## Umbran

Paul Farquhar said:


> Maybe he did survive, maybe there is more than one Loki...




There are most assuredly more than one, given the whole mutliverse thing.  There's more than one of pretty much everybody.  He won't be special in that regard.

However, I'm going to guess that the MCU (Earth-199999) Loki that we started with is dead.  There's just many, many alternate Lokis out there.


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## doctorbadwolf

Paul Farquhar said:


> Maybe he did survive, maybe there is more than one Loki...



I would be fine with that. I'd also be fine with Heimdall returning, not so much because it makes sense narratively, but because the movies did him dirty and he deserved so much better.


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## Enevhar Aldarion

How much of the multiverse does everyone think will get introduced in this series versus saving it for Doctor Strange 2 or Spiderman 3? Will it just be flashes, like we had when the Avengers collected the alternate Infinity Stones? Or something more solid and visual? Any cameos you expect or just wish to see?


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## hopeless

A decent series to be honest.
If they deliberately skipped including Dr Strange in Wandavision just because he would outclass Wanda, rather than that original excuse that he couldn't attend the cameo due to the covid restrictions will that effect this series too?
I just watched a video where they suggested four changes to Endgame that would greatly improve that movie one of which was swapping Tony Stark for Bruce Banner with Banner accompanying Natasha instead of Hawkeye.
Tony would be warned by the Ancient One and he'd call off the insertion in Avengers Tower so they'd pick up the space stone somewhere else, thus Loki doesn't escape due to that mis hap in the movie.
Looking at that video I can see Thanos letting Thor think he killed Loki only to use the Space Stone to drop him off where the TVA could pick him up and that wouldn't effect this series.
Now I need to find that video so I can link it here and see what you think!

Here we go!


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## Tonguez

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> How much of the multiverse does everyone think will get introduced in this series versus saving it for Doctor Strange 2 or Spiderman 3? Will it just be flashes, like we had when the Avengers collected the alternate Infinity Stones? Or something more solid and visual? Any cameos you expect or just wish to see?



Im expecting that the story will go over a number of 'mundane' alternate timelines and the general storyline will be alt-Loki having to deal with the mischief of various altB-Lokis. I think they will leave the weirder dimensions to Doctor Strange or the "What If" cartoons.

I think Marvel has handled deaths well so far and have already done a replacement with Gamora. Bringing back alt-Loki fits both the Loki character and the overall MCU story (whereas brining back Tony Stark or Captain Rogers would be bad). Not sure about Natasha Romanov, they're already doing a soft res with the Black widow movie


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## Enevhar Aldarion

Tonguez said:


> I think Marvel has handled deaths well so far and have already done a replacement with Gamora. Bringing back alt-Loki fits both the Loki character and the overall MCU story (whereas brining back Tony Stark or Captain Rogers would be bad). Not sure about Natasha Romanov, they're already doing a soft res with the Black widow movie




Yep. And with the MCU, it is the title/code name that stays around, not the character, since the actors age or die tragically young. So we have another character who is also a Black Widow. Another character, Sam, to become Captain America. Another character, Riri, to become Ironheart/Ironman. Miles Morales as Spiderman when that time comes. Now, there are some who will not be replaced when the actor is done, like Thor or Doctor Strange, because those are the character names and not just titles that someone else can take on. Though we will see what they do with Thor in Thor 4. Will they call Jane Thor or will she just wield Mjolnir and be called something else? Bruce Banner is himself, but someone else can get Hulked, like his cousin, She-Hulk. Someone else can, and probably will, take the title of Hawkeye. And so on.


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## pukunui

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Someone else can, and probably will, take the title of Hawkeye.



Isn't Hailee Steinfeld supposed to be taking over as Hawkeye in the upcoming Disney+ show?


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## hopeless

pukunui said:


> Isn't Hailee Steinfeld supposed to be taking over as Hawkeye in the upcoming Disney+ show?



Being trained during the Hawkeye tv series?


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## Enevhar Aldarion

pukunui said:


> Isn't Hailee Steinfeld supposed to be taking over as Hawkeye in the upcoming Disney+ show?




Yes, but in the comics, she has her own code name, that I can't remember right now, as a member of the Young Avengers. And with the MCU, we won't know if they will go with that or promote her to Hawkeye when Jeremy Renner is done playing the part.


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## Tonguez

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Yes, but in the comics, she has her own code name, that I can't remember right now, as a member of the Young Avengers. And with the MCU, we won't know if they will go with that or promote her to Hawkeye when Jeremy Renner is done playing the part.



Kate Bishop is Hawkeye in the comics and was semi-officially dubbed that by Captain America himself when he bestowed Bartons bow upon her.

In her first outing with the Young Avengers she gets nicknamed “Hawkingbird” because in addition to the bow she also uses double batons  and wears a mask like Mockingbird. 
She’s also been teasingly referred to as Hawkette especially when working alongside Clint Barton


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## doctorbadwolf

Tonguez said:


> Kate Bishop is Hawkeye in the comics and was semi-officially dubbed that by Captain America himself when he bestowed Bartons bow upon her.
> 
> In her first outing with the Young Avengers she gets nicknamed “Hawkingbird” because in addition to the bow she also uses double batons  and wears a mask like Mockingbird.
> She’s also been teasingly referred to as Hawkette especially when working alongside Clint Barton



I prefer when Clint gets called Hawkguy, personally


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## Umbran

He's... mischievously delicious?


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## pukunui

Just watched the first episode, "Glorious Purpose". I loved it! I think I'm going to like this show even more than I liked WandaVision.


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## trappedslider

pukunui said:


> Just watched the first episode, "Glorious Purpose". I loved it! I think I'm going to like this show even more than I liked WandaVision.



I loved all the little nods to quotes from Loki, I love  The '70s office look with their geometric patterns, brown and orange hues and dated-looking devices. The fact that there's a TVA Narrative commission is just icing on the cake lol. We also have another candidate for  D.B. Cooper (actual history for those not in the know:  D.B. Cooper as depicted hijacked a plane, got two hundred thousand dollars in ransom money, and parachuted off the plane, with only a few stray burned bills ever found. )

The casualness of the infinity stones "yeah some even use them as paper weights" and the sad panda face Loki makes when he realizes that they don't care about them at all.

also Tara Strong's voice: 

*I'm gonna have to keep check on context regarding "TVA" due to Tennessee Valley Authority lol


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## MarkB

Those "timeline reset charges" are clearly the McGuffin of the series. They very carefully didn't actually show us what happens when one goes off, but it's instructive that Mobius makes sure the kid in the church gets clear before one detonates.


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## hopeless

I wonder what will happen if Mobius finds out the TVA ARE the bad guys and his organisation is being set up to allow Kang the Conqeror to take over?


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## trappedslider

hopeless said:


> I wonder what will happen if Mobius finds out the TVA ARE the bad guys and his organisation is being set up to allow Kang the Conqeror to take over?



is this speculation, because there wasn't anything in the episode that I can recall that pointed to that. In fact Mobius said they were hunting another loki.  If it's related to comics put it in spoilers so that folks who have idea about the comics won't be spoiled.


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## hopeless

trappedslider said:


> is this speculation, because there wasn't anything in the episode that I can recall that pointed to that. In fact Mobius said they were hunting another loki.  If it's related to comics put it in spoilers so that folks who have idea about the comics won't be spoiled.



Good god no I'm only speculating from what I've heard about.
I have no idea where they're going with this, I'm just hoping it will be good.


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## Enevhar Aldarion

That little animated explanation of the Sacred Timeline does nicely help set up Doctor Strange and the Multiverse of Madness.


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## MarkB

hopeless said:


> I wonder what will happen if Mobius finds out the TVA ARE the bad guys and his organisation is being set up



At this point I'm keeping an open mind as to whether Mobius is the bad guy, and is actually obfuscating the investigation into the rogue variant and bringing in this Loki purely to further muddy the waters.

Also, is "the one, true sacred timeline as dictated by these three god-lizard-people" even a good-guy position in the first place?

Also also, it really does feel like they're borrowing heavily from Doctor Who for this backstory. The whole ancient Time War is straight out of the first couple of seasons of new Who, and the bureaucratic, hidebound, officious organisation dedicated solely to preserving the timeline is very Time Lord-esque.

They're doing it in style, though. I do like the retro look of the TVA - very Fallout style, especially with the cartoony posters and expository videos.


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## Mind of tempest

MarkB said:


> At this point I'm keeping an open mind as to whether Mobius is the bad guy, and is actually obfuscating the investigation into the rogue variant and bringing in this Loki purely to further muddy the waters.
> 
> Also, is "the one, true sacred timeline as dictated by these three god-lizard-people" even a good-guy position in the first place?
> 
> Also also, it really does feel like they're borrowing heavily from Doctor Who for this backstory. The whole ancient Time War is straight out of the first couple of seasons of new Who, and the bureaucratic, hidebound, officious organisation dedicated solely to preserving the timeline is very Time Lord-esque.
> 
> They're doing it in style, though. I do like the retro look of the TVA - very Fallout style, especially with the cartoony posters and expository videos.



the doctor was in marvel at some points so it is not odd plus there are few other ways to do such an organisation.


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## trappedslider

MarkB said:


> Also also, it really does feel like they're borrowing heavily from Doctor Who for this backstory. The whole ancient Time War is straight out of the first couple of seasons of new Who, and the bureaucratic, hidebound, officious organisation dedicated solely to preserving the timeline is very Time Lord-esque.



I just read a review of the episode that uses the phrase "wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey"


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## Tonguez

pukunui said:


> Just watched the first episode, "Glorious Purpose". I loved it! I think I'm going to like this show even more than I liked WandaVision.



Oh I had forgotten they were switching to Wednesdays until you reminded me, so just went and watched it. I loved the 60/70s future retro look they've used for the TVA, it adds to the whole surreal bureaucracy of it all.  Hiddelstone has a really expressive face too, he expressed the emotional breakdown well as he went from arrogant would be conqueror to realisation of his own loss and personal tragedy - my wifes a counsellor, so seeing a whole episode of TVA therapy was _interesting_

Looking forward to the story unfolding beyond the movie flashbacks

and obligatory* Mephisto Did It*!!!


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## trappedslider

Tonguez said:


> and obligatory* Mephisto Did It*!!!



bad news, the director has already jossed that


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## Blue

Quite enjoying it so far.  Had high expectations with Hiddleson, good so far with a few minor misses.

I think I'm glad they did WandaVision (nonstandard) then a palette cleaner of Falcon and the Winter Soldier which was more classic MCU, and now back to soemthing that feels like they really need the length and processing-time of a show to get across.  I've enjoyed both the previous, though in different ways.  I am pretty much their target audience though.

The minor gaffes I mentioned before - the opening intro music didn't grab me.  I'm hoping that's intentional and it will vary during the run.  But I was looking for more Jon Williams recognizing a god, and it was almost trite instead.  (On the other hand, the ending music, with the discordant twang instead of closure, I did think did a good job.)

The other is that I get that time-travel needs to gut-reaction show the viewer that they are out-of-their-time which means either forward or backwards, but I feel like Umbrella Academy recently did the old-timey 1950s feel for their time traveler bureau.

Interesting dichotomy between Mobius, not wearing the uniform and acting clearly subservient to the judge, and willing to go "off script".  While not everyone wore uniforms (like the processing people), their actions were very uniform to the TSA mentality.  And since "purge first" seems to be an operating rule, including for not having a ticket, that suggests a lot about the directives that formed that.

On the other hand, I would not be surprised if the whole thing wasn't a set up, exactly as Loki predicted.  Or that Mobius is other than he seems.  Or, well, I'm expecting twists and hope they include ones I don't see coming.


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## trappedslider

Also loved the nod to Ironman 3 when loki attempts to use magic and the guard fights back laughing out loud and obligatory #Caseyneedshisownshow


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## Rabulias

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> That little animated explanation of the Sacred Timeline does nicely help set up Doctor Strange and the Multiverse of Madness.



Hmmm... if the TVA ends up being "burnt to the ground" (whether in this series or off-screen a la Xandar) and are no longer keeping an eye on the timeline, it could indeed lead to a multiverse of madness.


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## Stalker0

The moment for me was the drawer full of Infinity stones.... you can see Loki literally broken and humbled by the weight of the power here.

And yet....the hint of excitement.... Loki has always craved power, and now he may have found the greatest power of them all.

My only issue is the ramification of the TVA existing at all. As Loki is lashing out and saying "its my choice", and Moebius just kind of soft laughing like "sure it is".... I mean, what is the point of ANY of the rest of the marvel universe is the TVA is just going to make sure what should happens happens? What is the point of the avengers avenging? Are the Eternals going to seem all that powerful when you have a bunch of bureaucrats that keep infinity stones in their drawers for decorations?

So I'm partly worried that the roof has been blown off power scale wise. Now that is comics, but will this continue to translate to the big and small screens we will see.


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## Tonguez

Stalker0 said:


> The moment for me was the drawer full of Infinity stones.... you can see Loki literally broken and humbled by the weight of the power here.
> 
> And yet....the hint of excitement.... Loki has always craved power, and now he may have found the greatest power of them all.
> 
> My only issue is the ramification of the TVA existing at all. As Loki is lashing out and saying "its my choice", and Moebius just kind of soft laughing like "sure it is".... I mean, what is the point of ANY of the rest of the marvel universe is the TVA is just going to make sure what should happens happens? What is the point of the avengers avenging? Are the Eternals going to seem all that powerful when you have a bunch of bureaucrats that keep infinity stones in their drawers for decorations?
> 
> So I'm partly worried that the roof has been blown off power scale wise. Now that is comics, but will this continue to translate to the big and small screens we will see.




yeah, the TVA nullifying Infinity Stone level magic and arbitarily pruning powerful beings from the timeline really does blow the whole MCU apart.

I did think it was cute that they addressed the issue of Avengers time travel but one would have to question where they were when Doctor Strange was playing with time too.

I dont think Mobius will be a villain but the TVA being a cover for the true BBEG is not farfetched. Burning the TVA would certainly help keep the MCU on the right track ...


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## Zaukrie

Not a fan of all powerful time keepers. Nothing is more depressing than no free will. Very not into this so far. Nothing matters at all if it is all preordained. Nothing.


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## Zaukrie

Tony's sacrifice? Meaningless. It wasn't even his choice. Hate it. Hate it.


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## Zaukrie

Stalker0 said:


> The moment for me was the drawer full of Infinity stones.... you can see Loki literally broken and humbled by the weight of the power here.
> 
> And yet....the hint of excitement.... Loki has always craved power, and now he may have found the greatest power of them all.
> 
> My only issue is the ramification of the TVA existing at all. As Loki is lashing out and saying "its my choice", and Moebius just kind of soft laughing like "sure it is".... I mean, what is the point of ANY of the rest of the marvel universe is the TVA is just going to make sure what should happens happens? What is the point of the avengers avenging? Are the Eternals going to seem all that powerful when you have a bunch of bureaucrats that keep infinity stones in their drawers for decorations?
> 
> So I'm partly worried that the roof has been blown off power scale wise. Now that is comics, but will this continue to translate to the big and small screens we will see.



Concur


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## Enevhar Aldarion

Zaukrie said:


> Not a fan of all powerful time keepers. Nothing is more depressing than no free will. Very not into this so far. Nothing matters at all if it is all preordained. Nothing.




They only seem all-powerful while in their city that is outside of time and space. But obviously they are vulnerable when out in the real world or multiple teams would not have been ambushed and killed.


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## Older Beholder

It's off to a good start.
Plenty of room for fan theories as to what's going on with this series, much like WandaVision.

The TVA seems pretty suss, we only have their word on a lot of things.


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## pukunui

Zaukrie said:


> Not a fan of all powerful time keepers. Nothing is more depressing than no free will. Very not into this so far. Nothing matters at all if it is all preordained. Nothing.



I don't think they're as all-powerful as they would appear to be ... or if they are, they won't be by the time this show finishes. The breaking of the "sacred timeline" could be a good way to introduce whatever _Doctor Strange and the Multiverse of Madness _is all about. (I suspect the different timelines are another way of referring to the multiverse.)


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## Tonguez

Zaukrie said:


> Not a fan of all powerful time keepers. Nothing is more depressing than no free will. Very not into this so far. Nothing matters at all if it is all preordained. Nothing.





pukunui said:


> I don't think they're as all-powerful as they would appear to be ... or if they are, they won't be by the time this show finishes. The breaking of the "sacred timeline" could be a good way to introduce whatever _Doctor Strange and the Multiverse of Madness _is all about. (I suspect the different timelines are another way of referring to the multiverse.)




Yeah.  My theory is that Lokis pursuit of free will vs the TVA preservation of the ‘Sacred Timeline’ will be the central conflict of the show and that by the end Loki will burn down the TVA (Loki is scheduled to be in Multiverse of Madness)

episode 1 was set up to take Arrogant Villain Loki to a sense of despondent powerlessness where he submits to the TVA’s apparent power.
However Im sure that the rest of the series will see him rising up from his low point initially for the TVA until he uncovers their nefarious plan and rebels against them

In the long run Free Will will triumph over the tyranny of space lizards


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## BrokenTwin

I just hope that the point of the show isn't to just set him up as the villain again.

Also really happy that they managed to at least partially avoid throwing all his post-Avengers character development out the window. Resetting a character's development always feels cheap to me.


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## hopeless

I think this will establish Kang the Conqueror as the big bad of the next phase.


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## wicked cool

are these lizard people even part of marvel?  I always thought it was the Watcher who "watched" 

I'm not as excited as I thought I would be for this.


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## Janx

We saw it.  Early thoughts are that it looked fun.  And that they had a ready excuse for allowing SOME time travel.  Just not Loki's.

Crazy Idea #1
discounting bubblegum kid pointing to the devil in the church (probably Mephisto), when Moebius tells Loki that the threat who is killing his men is Loki, I got an idea.  What if it IS the same Loki as the one we see in episode 1.  The murders is part of this Loki's plan to strike back at the TVA that he hasn't developed yet.

Guess we'll see.


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## BrokenTwin

I assumed the kid pointing to the devil in the church meant that antag!Loki will be putting in at least one appearance with his horned helm. I do like the idea of protag!Loki and antag!Loki are literally the same Loki at different points in time, but if they go that route I hope they provide more reasoning than "I'm evil!" for him to be murdering them.


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## hopeless

I was wondering if by horns of the devil they actually meant Wanda given the end of her series and the Dr Strange sequel playing into this.
But then if it is the same Loki then is he deliberately leaving clues for Moebius to find to maintain his time line?


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## Older Beholder

I had to look up D.B. Cooper, I’d never heard of that. 
There were 14 different suspects in the wiki entry.


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## Mallus

This is a close as we’re going to get to a Wes Anderson Marvel movie, isn’t it?

Owen Wilson? Check. White guy midlife (mid-afterlife?, paralife?) crisis? Check. Symmetrical shots? Check. Color palette? Check. Grace notes & a surprising bit of violence? Check. Whimsy? Check and mate.

I am delighted.


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## Zaukrie

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> They only seem all-powerful while in their city that is outside of time and space. But obviously they are vulnerable when out in the real world or multiple teams would not have been ambushed and killed.



They can nullify gods and infinity stones. They go thru time and space and kill anyone using free will. They are villains and I hope they are destroyed.


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## hopeless

ModestModernist said:


> I had to look up D.B. Cooper, I’d never heard of that.
> There were 14 different suspects in the wiki entry.



Even the Leverage tv series had an episode dedicated to that story!


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## Enevhar Aldarion

hopeless said:


> I think this will establish Kang the Conqueror as the big bad of the next phase.




We already know that Kang is the main villain in the next Ant-Man movie, which is his first known appearance in the MCU, and that movie is still a couple of years away. Maybe he will be teased somewhere before then, but not as the main villain until then.


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## MarkB

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> We already know that Kang is the main villain in the next Ant-Man movie, which is his first known appearance in the MCU, and that movie is still a couple of years away. Maybe he will be teased somewhere before then, but not as the main villain until then.



They managed to draw out Thanos over a decade or so, so they have form with this.


----------



## trappedslider

Don’t Get Your Hopes Up For Mephisto in ‘Loki’
					

"It's honestly just a super weird coincidence," the show's director says.




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## Davies

Spoiler: Just a crazy idea



... anyone else think that Mobius is himself this Loki from further along in his personal timeline? A mobius strip, after all, has only one side.


----------



## hopeless

An interesting idea.
I'm wondering what else the TVA are hiding?


----------



## Mind of tempest

hopeless said:


> An interesting idea.
> I'm wondering what else the TVA are hiding?



arc of the covenant?


----------



## hopeless

Mind of tempest said:


> arc of the covenant?



Maybe that bloody fridge too!


----------



## Mind of tempest

hopeless said:


> Maybe that bloody fridge too!



that would be a good easter egg.


----------



## RangerWickett

Having seen what pirate cat did with his time police RPG, I don't think they're going to have the villain Loki be the same Loki that we're seeing now, because I think they're going to have a sort of continuity of narrative timeline for all events happening at the TVA.

Like, you can time travel in the universe, but you can't time travel inside the TVA. Maybe?

But, the fact that they did not show us the face of the hooded figure at the end implies to me that they are going to have some sort of reveal.

My theory, and this is maybe a bit of a stretch, is based on the fact that the Miss marvel show is coming out soon, and one of the storylines in the early comics involved a teenaged Loki showing up at Miss Marvel's high School. I think that somehow we will end up with a teenaged Loki.


----------



## Mind of tempest

RangerWickett said:


> Having seen what pirate cat did with his time police RPG, I don't think they're going to have the villain Loki be the same Loki that we're seeing now, because I think they're going to have a sort of continuity of narrative timeline for all events happening at the TVA.
> 
> Like, you can time travel in the universe, but you can't time travel inside the TVA. Maybe?
> 
> But, the fact that they did not show us the face of the hooded figure at the end implies to me that they are going to have some sort of reveal.
> 
> My theory, and this is maybe a bit of a stretch, is based on the fact that the Miss marvel show is coming out soon, and one of the storylines in the early comics involved a teenaged Loki showing up at Miss Marvel's high School. I think that somehow we will end up with a teenaged Loki.



maybe clocked Loki is femloki?


----------



## Gradine

Zaukrie said:


> Not a fan of all powerful time keepers. Nothing is more depressing than no free will. Very not into this so far. Nothing matters at all if it is all preordained. Nothing.



I think that perhaps the way you're feeling is the point


----------



## Mind of tempest

Gradine said:


> I think that perhaps the way you're feeling is the point



as this is likely the plot point.


----------



## RangerWickett

Mind of tempest said:


> maybe clocked Loki is femloki?



That was another thought. Thor: Love and Thunder is potentially going to involve the female Thor storyline, which I believe also had a female Loki.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

There will be more than TV show Loki and Movie Loki seen in the series, as Kevin Feige teased at in this quote from last month:

“He’s been around for thousands of years. He had all sorts of adventures,” Feige said. “Wanting to fill in the blanks and see much more of Loki’s story [was] the initial desire [for the series].”

“Part of the fun of the multiverse and playing with time is seeing other versions of characters,” he teased. “And other versions of the titular character in particular.”


----------



## Tonguez

RangerWickett said:


> That was another thought. Thor: Love and Thunder is potentially going to involve the female Thor storyline, which I believe also had a female Loki.



One of the Loki trailers shows the behind view of red haired women sitting on a rock in space. Its been confirmed that its not Black Widow and thus speculation has shifted


----------



## Zaukrie

Gradine said:


> I think that perhaps the way you're feeling is the point



I understand that.....but I don't have to like it.


----------



## RangerWickett

Tonguez said:


> One of the Loki trailers shows the behind view of red haired women sitting on a rock in space. Its been confirmed that its not Black Widow and thus speculation has shifted



Oh, I was sorta hoping Loki would get to sit down with Natasha and commend her for tricking him that one time.

By the way, I want to say how much I'm enjoying the use of theremin in the soundtrack.


----------



## Zaukrie

I want to add, for all my hatred of fate and no free will.....I love the acting, writing, camera work and music......It is a well done show.


----------



## Morrus

So first episode. I've been looking forward to this one.

It's OK. I feel about it much the same way I felt about Wandavision in the first ep. I ended up loving Wandavision, but I grew to love it.

I've never been super clear what Loki's powers are. He gets beaten up by everybody, but he can change his appearance (which he does rarely)? As gods go, he's never felt very godly. He's not really very powerful. But he's always been fun to watch.

Pre-destined timelines is definitely an agency-killer.

Owen Wilson is awesome.

Nice to see some up and coming black British actors in the cast.


----------



## Tonguez

Morrus said:


> I've never been super clear what Loki's powers are. He gets beaten up by everybody, but he can change his appearance (which he does rarely)? As gods go, he's never felt very godly. He's not really very powerful. But he's always been fun to watch.




Well he’s a runty Frost Giant rather than a god so he’s not strong by Asgardian standards. He is durable enough to survive a beating from the Hulk though and has used his Illusion, telepathy and teleport abilities on screen. 
But yeah he’s always been more about intellectual Superiority and Deception than overt displays of power.


----------



## Morrus

Tonguez said:


> Well he’s a runty Frost Giant rather than a god so he’s not strong by Asgardian standards. He is durable enough to survive a beating from the Hulk though and has used his Illusion, telepathy and teleport abilities on screen.
> But yeah he’s always been more about intellectual Superiority and Deception than overt displays of power.



His intellectual superiority has never been demonstrated, and has no apparent effect on anything. Has he ever done anything particularly clever? He bantered once with Tony Stark. 

The illusion we've seen occasionally. Teleport once or twice? Have we seen telepathy? He's clearly not a guy who likes to use his superpowers!


----------



## Gradine

Zaukrie said:


> I understand that.....but I don't have to like it.



You're... not supposed to like it. _That's the point._

Like, I'm fairly certain the whole point of this exercise is to root for Loki to burn down this significant source of predestination, like Loki's whole arc is going to be recognizing that what the TVA is doing is exactly what they professed to want to do on Earth (all that "tyranny of freedom" prattle) and that getting a taste of it themself is will make them realize the flaws in their old tyrannical plans.

I mean... I'm sure there will be the typical MCU twists and turns along the way, and Loki, being Loki, will make non-standard heroic decisions along the way in the name of self-preservation, the TVA will be revealed to be less in control of everything as they appear and/or think they are, yadda yadda, free will and choice will always prevail against predestination, hurray, one last twist at the very end that prepares us for the future, Loki Will Return.

This stuff basically writes itself.


----------



## Zaukrie

Gradine said:


> You're... not supposed to like it. _That's the point._
> 
> Like, I'm fairly certain the whole point of this exercise is to root for Loki to burn down this significant source of predestination, like Loki's whole arc is going to be recognizing that what the TVA is doing is exactly what they professed to want to do on Earth (all that "tyranny of freedom" prattle) and that getting a taste of it themself is will make them realize the flaws in their old tyrannical plans.
> 
> I mean... I'm sure there will be the typical MCU twists and turns along the way, and Loki, being Loki, will make non-standard heroic decisions along the way in the name of self-preservation, the TVA will be revealed to be less in control of everything as they appear and/or think they are, yadda yadda, free will and choice will always prevail against predestination, hurray, one last twist at the very end that prepares us for the future, Loki Will Return.
> 
> This stuff basically writes itself.



I get all that. But being able to turn off an infinity stone is a bridge too far for me.....

I'm not a fan of any story that is pre-ordained. It was my issue with Eddings' work. It's my issue with any story where the actors have no freedom of will. I can totally get what they are doing, it can be well done, and I can still not like the story. It's why we have so many stories, and kinds of wine or beer.....


----------



## Morrus

Yeah, the predestination thing is clearly the big bad of this story. Predestination = bad. God of chaos burns it all down because that's what he does.


----------



## Gradine

Morrus said:


> His intellectual superiority has never been demonstrated, and has no apparent effect on anything. Has he ever done anything particularly clever? He bantered once with Tony Stark.
> 
> The illusion we've seen occasionally. Teleport once or twice? Have we seen telepathy? He's clearly not a guy who likes to use his superpowers!



I mean... he successfully dethroned and exiled Odin and replaced him without anyone really suspecting a thing for years. That's... not nothing.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Gradine said:


> You're... not supposed to like it. _That's the point._
> 
> Like, I'm fairly certain the whole point of this exercise is to root for Loki to burn down this significant source of predestination, like Loki's whole arc is going to be recognizing that what the TVA is doing is exactly what they professed to want to do on Earth (all that "tyranny of freedom" prattle) and that getting a taste of it themself is will make them realize the flaws in their old tyrannical plans.
> 
> I mean... I'm sure there will be the typical MCU twists and turns along the way, and Loki, being Loki, will make non-standard heroic decisions along the way in the name of self-preservation, the TVA will be revealed to be less in control of everything as they appear and/or think they are, yadda yadda, free will and choice will always prevail against predestination, hurray, one last twist at the very end that prepares us for the future, Loki Will Return.
> 
> This stuff basically writes itself.




That may be a part of it, but in an interview of Tom Hiddleston, that I would have to dig up again, he basically said that how WandaVision was about grief and Falcon was about prejudice, Loki is about identity.


----------



## Gradine

Zaukrie said:


> I get all that. But being able to turn off an infinity stone is a bridge too far for me.....



The stakes, alas, they must always rise


----------



## Gradine

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> That may be a part of it, but in an interview of Tom Hiddleston, that I would have to dig up again, he basically said that how WandaVision was about grief and Falcon was about prejudice, Loki is about identity.



What is identity without free will? Who are we if not the sum of our choices?


----------



## Davies

Morrus said:


> His intellectual superiority has never been demonstrated, and has no apparent effect on anything. Has he ever done anything particularly clever?



Remember the "thank you for your assistance" scene? That _looks_ like Natasha getting one over on him. But what happens as a result of it? The Avengers nearly start fighting each other, and are distracted when Clint and the other agents under Loki's control arrive. _He got what he wanted out of that exchange._


----------



## Morrus

Gradine said:


> I mean... he successfully dethroned and exiled Odin and replaced him without anyone really suspecting a thing for years. That's... not nothing.



Mainly offscreen though. I'd like to see him using this superior intellect onscreen.


----------



## Zaukrie

Gradine said:


> The stakes, alas, they must always rise



I don't agree with that at all. We only have a couple handfuls of movies, we get new supers, they don't need to rise for a good story. The story is about the journey and empathy, not the outcomes.


----------



## Morrus

Davies said:


> Remember the "thank you for your assistance" scene? That _looks_ like Natasha getting one over on him. But what happens as a result of it? The Avengers nearly start fighting each other, and are distracted when Clint and the other agents under Loki's control arrive. _He got what he wanted out of that exchange._



He did, but it wasn't really all that clever. Not superpower clever.


----------



## MarkB

Morrus said:


> I've never been super clear what Loki's powers are. He gets beaten up by everybody, but he can change his appearance (which he does rarely)? As gods go, he's never felt very godly. He's not really very powerful. But he's always been fun to watch.



Mostly it's illusion powers. He can change his appearance, anything from a new outfit to a perfect mimicry of another person - good enough that he spent months or years ruling Asgard as Odin. And the changes of appearance seem to be more than merely visual - they have physical form.

He can also become completely invisible, and project a false image of himself elsewhere. Quite some distance elsewhere, it seems - he was able to appear to be in the gladiators' quarters during Thor Ragnarok while he was still partying outside. That also implicitly includes the ability to perceive areas at a distance.

When he was incarcerated in the second Thor movie, he was able to alter the appearance of his entire cell, projecting an appearance of himself calm and collected, to disguise the ruin and despair he'd wrought after learning of his mother's death.

He probably has a few more miscellaneous tricks of magic that he learned from his mother.


----------



## Morrus

Zaukrie said:


> I'm not a fan of any story that is pre-ordained.



I suspect you'll be fine.


----------



## Zaukrie

Morrus said:


> I suspect you'll be fine.



I agree......let's just say this episode came at an odd time for me emotionally......


----------



## RangerWickett

Zaukrie said:


> I get all that. But being able to turn off an infinity stone is a bridge too far for me.....



In comics canon, the stones only work in their own universe. You can steal some from the past of your own timeline, but you can't hop into an adjacent timeline and take one. The stones control the universe, but if you're in the wrong universe, you can't control anything, like having a remote control for someone else's TV.


----------



## Zaukrie

RangerWickett said:


> In comics canon, the stones only work in their own universe. You can steal some from the past of your own timeline, but you can't hop into an adjacent timeline and take one. The stones control the universe, but if you're in the wrong universe, you can't control anything, like having a remote control for someone else's TV.



Fair....I think Marvel and others need to remember that masses have not, and never will, read the comics......they certainly are less powerful than beings, then, since beings can move around.....


----------



## Zaukrie

Loki = CN freedom fighter
Time Lords = LG paladins

I know where I stand in that fight.....


----------



## Zaukrie

Man, I sound like a whiny kid about this....hope I'm not over posting here....


----------



## pukunui

I’m definitely getting feminine vibes from the cloaked attacker at the end. I suspect that is the female Loki. Whether she is the show’s actual antagonist or a distraction remains to be seen. Based on the trailer, it seems fair to assume the two Lokis share at least a brief moment of rapport at some stage.


----------



## Older Beholder

hopeless said:


> Even the Leverage tv series had an episode dedicated to that story!



I haven’t heard of the Leverage tv series, but I noticed it has been referenced in a number of TV shows, including the 4400 which makes sense. (I think I only watched the pilot ep of that series)


----------



## Older Beholder

The other hint that the Devil in the stain glass is Loki...
The Devils blue mouth/breath might be reference to him being a frost giant?


----------



## Paul Farquhar

MarkB said:


> Mostly it's illusion powers. He can change his appearance, anything from a new outfit to a perfect mimicry of another person - good enough that he spent months or years ruling Asgard as Odin. And the changes of appearance seem to be more than merely visual - they have physical form.
> 
> He can also become completely invisible, and project a false image of himself elsewhere. Quite some distance elsewhere, it seems - he was able to appear to be in the gladiators' quarters during Thor Ragnarok while he was still partying outside. That also implicitly includes the ability to perceive areas at a distance.
> 
> When he was incarcerated in the second Thor movie, he was able to alter the appearance of his entire cell, projecting an appearance of himself calm and collected, to disguise the ruin and despair he'd wrought after learning of his mother's death.
> 
> He probably has a few more miscellaneous tricks of magic that he learned from his mother.



He is actually pretty close to a D&D wizard(illusionist) in terms of powers (with some transmutation spells preped as well).


----------



## Paul Farquhar

ModestModernist said:


> The other hint that the Devil in the stain glass is Loki...



The horns are significant...


ModestModernist said:


> The Devils blue mouth/breath might be reference to him being a frost giant?



I'm not so sure about the bubble gum.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Zaukrie said:


> Loki = CN freedom fighter
> Time Lords = LG paladins
> 
> I know where I stand in that fight.....



I think lawful stupid is a better fit than lawful good...


----------



## pukunui

I suspect the Kablooie gum is also hinting at future explosions of some kind.


----------



## Tonguez

pukunui said:


> I suspect the Kablooie gum is also hinting at future explosions of some kind.



Yeah the bubblegum confused me 

Ka-Bluey is an actual candy with gum centers sold here that Makes your tongue blue, is it sold in the US too? - was it an explosive onamatopoeia or was the scene just product placement?


----------



## MarkB

Tonguez said:


> Yeah the bubblegum confused me
> 
> Ka-Bluey is an actual candy with gum centers sold here that Makes your tongue blue, is it sold in the US too? - was it an explosive onamatopoeia or was the scene just product placement?



It seems a little much to include it in the end credits sequence if it's just a throwaway reference. Time will tell.


----------



## Staffan

Very rough theory here: what we're seeing is Loki's second time around in the TVA.

We see that Loki is clearly resourceful enough that he can evade the hunters within the TVA. They have a lot of muscle, but they're not omnipotent. So what I think happens is this:

1. The Loki variant, which we'll call Loki-A, is taken to the TVA. He is brought before the judge, and sentenced to be pruned.
2. At this point, he somehow manages to escape, and learns some stuff about the TVA similar to what we see on the show.
3. Loki-A decides to either destroy or conquer the TVA, and starts his campaign of ambushing their outside teams.
4. Mobius figures out that the threat is Loki-A, and decides to interfere. The name Mobius is almost certainly a hint, as a Mobius strip is kind of a *loop* that only has one side and one edge.
5. Mobius interference in the court room spins off a second variant, Loki-B (who is the one we'll be following on the show).
6. Mobius seeks to both understand what makes Loki-B tick (and possibly tock), and to recruit him into fighting Loki-A (possibly by tempting him with being inside this supremely powerful organization instead of outside).
7. As for how that works out, I guess that what we'll see on the show.


----------



## Umbran

Stalker0 said:


> I mean, what is the point of ANY of the rest of the marvel universe is the TVA is just going to make sure what should happens happens?




That, of course, is the entire point.  The TVA has to go.

My money is that...the "other Loki" is not a different variant Loki.  It is the _same_ Loki from further down his own timestream.  I suspect Mobius is _also_ that same Loki.  It is a very tricksterish thing to do, and also explains why Mobius takes all that effort talking to Loki about hos he's causing pain, not being a trickster.  .  I can even see a reason for picking up all the resets...


----------



## Staffan

Morrus said:


> Mainly offscreen though. I'd like to see him using this superior intellect onscreen.



A big problem is that it's really hard to show superior intellect on-screen without either having super-smart writers, or by having everyone else be really dumb. This particularly applies to social intelligence, which is supposed to be Loki's forte - it's easier to show Tony being smart by building a Cool Thing than to show Loki being smart by taking over Asgard, particularly on an action movie scale.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

pukunui said:


> I suspect the Kablooie gum is also hinting at future explosions of some kind.




According to some spoiler articles, the gum is a hint at the villain Nightmare. I think one article claimed his symbol/logo is on the gum pack. Same as the joking where Loki says this place is a nightmare, and Mobius says that is another department.


----------



## Umbran

So, I just realized something.  It is not based on the comics, but on the show's internal logic.  Still, I'll put it in a spoiler block, because some folks don't like to see such speculation...

It has occurred to me that, for an organization that, by its nature, sits outside the normal time stream, verb tenses don't necessarily mean what we think they mean.

"Miss Minutes," in her little expository filmstrip, says there *was* a multiversal timline war. That is _from the TVA perspective_. It is not necessarily from the perspective of the MCU/Earth-19999. That war could be in the _future_ of the MCU - like, starting in the Doctor Strange movie...


----------



## hopeless

Perhaps the series will expand on that?


----------



## Stalker0

Umbran said:


> That, of course, is the entire point.  The TVA has to go.



I think one of the issues with "damage already done" is that we have already seen that the current actions leading up to the Avengers beating of Thanos was "enforced" as the proper timeline.

If that had been left vague, then if Loki defeats the TVA it can be construed that "all of the things we see did have choice because the TVA was actually gone when it all happened"

But since we have seen the TVA's active hand, it already suggests that everything up till now on screen has been "enforced by the TVA". So destroying them ensures free will in future works, but still invalidates all of the effort that has happened up till now.

But that's my speculation, lets see where the ride takes us.


----------



## Stalker0

Staffan said:


> A big problem is that it's really hard to show superior intellect on-screen without either having super-smart writers, or by having everyone else be really dumb. This particularly applies to social intelligence, which is supposed to be Loki's forte - it's easier to show Tony being smart by building a Cool Thing than to show Loki being smart by taking over Asgard, particularly on an action movie scale.



I agree its difficult, though not not impossible for Marvel. For example they did it pretty well with Black Window in the avengers.

Twice we see Widow use her "interrogation skills" to smartly outwit two people, very good writing, was a very nice touch. So Marvel is clearly capable of it.

I think Thor said it best in Thor 3.... Loki's betrayals were so frequent and obvious at this point that he had grown predictable. So I think one of the best ways to take Loki in the future is let him actually do what he says he is going to, and not betray....this sets up chances for greater mischief in the future.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

We also have to remember that one of the TVA said that time works differently there, not that there is no flow of time at all. So while they are outside of the standard flow of time and space, things still more forward there or nothing would ever happen.


----------



## Staffan

Stalker0 said:


> I think one of the issues with "damage already done" is that we have already seen that the current actions leading up to the Avengers beating of Thanos was "enforced" as the proper timeline.
> 
> If that had been left vague, then if Loki defeats the TVA it can be construed that "all of the things we see did have choice because the TVA was actually gone when it all happened"
> 
> But since we have seen the TVA's active hand, it already suggests that everything up till now on screen has been "enforced by the TVA". So destroying them ensures free will in future works, but still invalidates all of the effort that has happened up till now.
> 
> But that's my speculation, lets see where the ride takes us.



We've only seen them respond to Loki taking advantage of the Endgame time travel shenanigans in order to escape, though. We don't know to what degree, if any, they manipulate the "natural" course of events.


----------



## Umbran

Stalker0 said:


> I think one of the issues with "damage already done" is that we have already seen that the current actions leading up to the Avengers beating of Thanos was "enforced" as the proper timeline.




So, this may be useless nitpicking, or it could be rather important, so I'll engage in the nitpick.

If I recall correctly, Mobius does not say that beating Thanos as they did was "enforced".  They do not say that the TVA had to take action to make sure it happened.  Mobius said words to the effect that those events transpired "as they should have."  

1) It is possible that the TVA doesn't care about most actions.  For example, they may not care about whether you have chicken salad or a BLT for lunch.  The bulk of your personal actions are just minor components of the overall statistics of billions and trillions of beings, and you are perfectly free of will within those statistics.  The graphic they showed of an alternate timeline going "to the red line" supports this idea.  There is an allowed region in which the universe is allowed to exist.  The only "enforcement" the TVA needs to do are on actions that go outside the allowed bounds, and create persistent alternate timelines.  Since Captain America put all the toys back where they came from (just like Cap, to clean up his room, right?), the TVA doesn't have to enforce anything.  They still had choice, but just happened to make choices that were all fair game, from the TVA's point of view.

In this form, the TVA is really no different than any other regulatory body.  Sure, there are some things you aren't allowed to do, but for the most part people are _incapable_ of those actions, and only a few folks have to be constrained if they make bad choices.  Loki bucking the system is an act of CN self-interest.  What happens to the plebeians is irrelevant, but _LOKI_ will not be constrained!


2) An alternative is that what the TVA has done is create a _deterministic_ universe, that will run to its completion in a known manner so long as there is no outside influences.  Unfortunately, in doing so, they didn't actually eliminate all outside influences - the TVA _itself_ is an outside influence, for example.  And that raises the question of what outside influence led to Loki's escape with the Tesseract?

In this form, the TVA has removed all free will from the trillions of sentient beings in the universe.  They are villains, and Loki is a straight up hero for opposing them.

And, I suspect they'll never tell us which of these is the case, especially if Mobius is Loki, because that would make the character _simple_.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Staffan said:


> We've only seen them respond to Loki taking advantage of the Endgame time travel shenanigans in order to escape, though. We don't know to what degree, if any, they manipulate the "natural" course of events.




We just know they do their best to prevent variant timelines from spawning from the main timeline. We also know that, at least for now, there is at least one variant timeline, for the one where Loki disappeared with the tessaract, rather than staying there to play out the events of the main timeline that ended in his death. And in that timeline Thanos would have never gotten all five infinity stones, because that Loki was never there on the Asgard ship with the tessaract. That means that if this Loki is never forced to go back to his fate, there is at least one timeline where the Snap never happened. And if there is another Loki murdering the TVA squads and taking the reset charges, then there is at least one more variant timeline active for that Loki. I am really expecting Loki to cause the collapse of the Sacred Timeline, though not on purpose. And which Loki you ask? Why several of them being together all at once, perhaps fighting and causing some time-space explosion or something. Or what happens if this evil version of Loki sets off all those stolen charges at the same time and in the same place? That might rip the timeline apart and create a true multiverse.


----------



## hopeless

The more I hear about this, the more I wonder why they didn't just have Thanos drop Loki off where the TVA pick him up and the TVA are unaware they've picked him up after he was supposedly killed.
Thus he's playacting knowing full well he's being observed and has faked his powerlessness to hide the fact he can escape any time he wants, but wants to find out everything he can so he can make sure the TVA can't catch him afterwards.
Mobius catches his interest and he helps him out of curiosity to find out whats actually going on and eventually realises Mobius and many of the TVA are being eliminated in preparation for Kang taking everything over.
I'm wondering if Kang is also Immortus and the founder of the TVA who was imprisoned and his power usurped resulting in the current mess.
Ravonna is helping to free him and is using variants like Loki to cover up their scheme.
But Loki is pissed, and since he's the same Loki who was willing to give up his life for his brother he fully intends to make them suffer for their actions perhaps enough to help Mobius discover the truth.
I'm hoping Mobius realizing the truth sends Loki back to his time repaying him for his help knowing fully well he has no chance of defeating the true villain but might have a cameo in Antman 3 hopefully!

Unlikely from what I hear they haven't recognised they're treating the MCU the same way as they treated the original concept for the Antman movie because it wasn't fitting their nascient MCU and now that Endgame is over the mess that was Captain Marvel didn't clue them in to the mistake they're making.
I'm hoping I'm wrong about this as it does sound like Loki is better than Wandavision and Falcon and the Winter Soldier which is surprising but their agenda driven focus is concerning.


----------



## MarkB

So, one thing that didn't occur to me until now: The actions of the Avengers against Thanos may have been "meant to happen", but doesn't that still leave the current version of Gamora as a Variant? She's from an alternate timeline, one which presumably no longer exists since Captain Rogers went back and 'snipped all the branches'.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

MarkB said:


> So, one thing that didn't occur to me until now: The actions of the Avengers against Thanos may have been "meant to happen", but doesn't that still leave the current version of Gamora as a Variant? She's from an alternate timeline, one which presumably no longer exists since Captain Rogers went back and 'snipped all the branches'.




But was it? Rogers went back and returned all the infinity stones they took, which he could not with the tesseract, because this Loki got it. Do the other versions of Gamora and Thanos and his troops just happen to be from the same variant timeline as this Loki?


----------



## MarkB

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> But was it? Rogers went back and returned all the infinity stones they took, which he could not with the tesseract, because this Loki got it. Do the other versions of Gamora and Thanos and his troops just happen to be from the same variant timeline as this Loki?



I don't think so. The team going after the stones at around the beginning of the events of Guardians of the Galaxy is separate from the one going after the stones at the end of the first Avengers movie, operating at two separate points in time, so they'd each create a separate 'branch'.

Not that it was necessarily easy for Steve to clip all those branches even if he had been aware of the extra Tesseract going astray.


----------



## Stalker0

Umbran said:


> And that raises the question of what outside influence led to Loki's escape with the Tesseract?



Yep, the million multiversal question!


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan

I finally got to watching the first episode of Loki. I like it so far, and expect that I'll only like it more and more as it continues. Not much else to say that hasn't already been said (expecting a female version of Loki, possibly some Mobius-Strip style plot for the show, etc).


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> But was it? Rogers went back and returned all the infinity stones they took, which he could not with the tesseract, because this Loki got it. Do the other versions of Gamora and Thanos and his troops just happen to be from the same variant timeline as this Loki?



Maybe the variant timeline in which Thanos travelled into the past and was killed has already been "pruned" by the TVA? In which case Gamora would appear to be a "variant". However, the TVA might not be anything like as all powerful as they make out. Maybe that variant hasn't been caught?

That brings the issue of how does "being late for work" create an alternative timeline? It's actually a fairly deterministic thing to happen. There is a traffic accident - deterministic - which holds up the traffic - deterministic - making you late - deterministic. Is there a non-deterministic way to be late for work?


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Paul Farquhar said:


> That brings the issue of how does "being late for work" create an alternative timeline? It's actually a fairly deterministic thing to happen. There is a traffic accident - deterministic - which holds up the traffic - deterministic - making you late - deterministic. Is there a non-deterministic way to be late for work?




That whole Butterfly Effect theory may be what that is all about. Or it could be about choice and how the TVA does not like it. I think the variant timeline being created is a choice thing. That person chose to do something other than the normal routine and that made him late, causing a very tiny variation in the timeline to be created.


----------



## Umbran

Paul Farquhar said:


> Maybe the variant timeline in which Thanos travelled into the past and was killed has already been "pruned" by the TVA? In which case Gamora would appear to be a "variant". However, the TVA might not be anything like as all powerful as they make out. Maybe that variant hasn't been caught?




Alternatively, all those shenanigans are, for some reason, the universe as intended by the Timekeepers?  Like, if one or more of the Keepers _exist_ because of those events, the events cannot be eradicated.




Paul Farquhar said:


> Is there a non-deterministic way to be late for work?




Blatantly - A time traveller or person from an outside place (say, the Dark Dimension, which we are told exists outside time) intervenes in your morning routine.  

Less blatantly - it would be roughly consistent with Marvel styling that "quantum effects" could disrupt the timeline naturally.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Umbran said:


> Alternatively, all those shenanigans are, for some reason, the universe as intended by the Timekeepers?  Like, if one or more of the Keepers _exist_ because of those events, the events cannot be eradicated./



"Meant to happen" or not, there is a timeline where Thanos travelled forward in time to change history, and was deleted by Tony Stark. And therefore never completed the infinity gauntlet and therefore the blip never happened.


----------



## hopeless

So why interfere with Loki's timeline at all?
All they had to do was paralyse him, drop him off back at that site he ported out of drop the tesseract at his feet then leave.
There done no need for a trial or anything variant timeline problem solved the space stone returned and no one the wiser!


----------



## MarkB

hopeless said:


> So why interfere with Loki's timeline at all?
> All they had to do was paralyse him, drop him off back at that site he ported out of drop the tesseract at his feet then leave.
> There done no need for a trial or anything variant timeline problem solved the space stone returned and no one the wiser!



The timeline he teleported out of was itself a variant timeline created by the Avengers going back in time. And it may or may not have been subsequently deleted through the act of returning the stones. There may not be anywhere for him to return to.


----------



## Maxperson

Tonguez said:


> yeah, the TVA nullifying Infinity Stone level magic and arbitarily pruning powerful beings from the timeline really does blow the whole MCU apart.
> 
> I did think it was cute that they addressed the issue of Avengers time travel but one would have to question where they were when Doctor Strange was playing with time too.
> 
> I dont think Mobius will be a villain but the TVA being a cover for the true BBEG is not farfetched. Burning the TVA would certainly help keep the MCU on the right track ...



The drawer full of Infinity Stones makes perfect sense if the story given is true.  If there were a bunch of timelines(universes) and those timelines got merged, you're going to have a bunch of extra Infinity Stones left lying about and a big need to move them to somewhere that they won't cause harm.  The one surviving timeline isn't going to need more than one set.


----------



## Maxperson

pukunui said:


> I’m definitely getting feminine vibes from the cloaked attacker at the end. I suspect that is the female Loki. Whether she is the show’s actual antagonist or a distraction remains to be seen. Based on the trailer, it seems fair to assume the two Lokis share at least a brief moment of rapport at some stage.



My theory is that Loki will successfully get out of this with his memories intact.  That will allow him to "trickster" his way out of death at the hands of Thanos and survive.  It will also allow him knowledge of the TVA with a reason(restore free will) to try and kill them all, thereby becoming the Loki that he has been enlisted to help stop.


----------



## Tonguez

Maxperson said:


> The drawer full of Infinity Stones makes perfect sense if the story given is true.  If there were a bunch of timelines(universes) and those timelines got merged, you're going to have a bunch of extra Infinity Stones left lying about and a big need to move them to somewhere that they won't cause harm.  The one surviving timeline isn't going to need more than one set.



kinda, the issue is that the Eye of Agamotto for instance allowed Dr Strange to view All possible timelines and we now have Nexus beings like Scarlet Witch who exist across all timelines - what happens to them?  

It would be okay if the TVA was doing something to _*actively*_ neutralise Infinity Stones from pruned timelines, its unsatisfying when they've become a throw-away meme used as paperweights by the TVA clerks


----------



## Maxperson

Tonguez said:


> kinda, the issue is that the Eye of Agamotto for instance allowed Dr Strange to view All possible timelines and we now have Nexus beings like Scarlet Witch who exist across all timelines - what happens to them?



I don't think anything happens to them.  We saw a timeline diagram where one timeline was going red.  There were several timelines all moving around each other and intersecting.  I think alternate timelines are allowed so long as they don't diverge too much.


----------



## MarkB

Maxperson said:


> The drawer full of Infinity Stones makes perfect sense if the story given is true.  If there were a bunch of timelines(universes) and those timelines got merged, you're going to have a bunch of extra Infinity Stones left lying about and a big need to move them to somewhere that they won't cause harm.  The one surviving timeline isn't going to need more than one set.



Also, it may not be a case of the TVA being so almighty that they treat all-powerful Infinity Stones as baubles, so much as these particular Infinity Stones actually being just baubles.

The Infinity Stones are the concentrated embodiment of the raw forces of the universe. So what happens when that universe - that timeline - is snipped out of existence? Wouldn't the stones simply become the concentrated embodiment of the raw forces of... well, nothing at all?


----------



## hopeless

Only if the TVA exists outside of any reality.
Now if they were plucked from the many fake gauntlets like the one Odin had then you would have a better explanation for their existence.
Personally I'd be more happy if they had sucked them dry first so they were rendered powerless because that power is being used by the TVA in their own version of a Gauntlet except its more like a Power Battery fuelling their abilities and they're keeping quiet about that part...


----------



## Mallus

Aren’t the Infinity Stones powerless (relatively-speaking) outside their native universe? I seem to recall that from one of Hickman’s Illuminati comics (Black Swan says it?).


----------



## MarkB

hopeless said:


> Only if the TVA exists outside of any reality.



That kind-of seems like a prerequisite for it to function at all.


----------



## hopeless

Mallus said:


> Aren’t the Infinity Stones powerless (relatively-speaking) outside their native universe? I seem to recall that from one of Hickman’s Illuminati comics (Black Swan says it?).



Which universe are these from because as far as I know they're all from alternate timelines due to alterations that the TVA had to step in and sort out so technically they're all in the right universe.
It just makes more sense that they acquired those stones to drain them of their power thereby keeping their TVA organisation operational.
Have they explained what happened to the space stone Loki used to escape in Endgame?


----------



## hopeless

MarkB said:


> That kind-of seems like a prerequisite for it to function at all.



No after all the reality stone has the ability to resemble that and if true wouldn't they be using the quantum realm if their form of time travel is anything similar to that?
I would have been more impressed if they had a stand with Thanos's armour on display as an exhibit highlighting the threats the TVA has to deal with and what they're protecting reality from.
But that's not the impression I'm getting from this.
If they were the organisation they said they were their first act should have been to return the space stone and Loki to where he disappeared.
Now had they picked him up and received a mayday call from that other team forcing them to go to their aid with Loki in tow and his presence is the only reason they survived THAT would drastically improve this series.
The very idea they bring them in to lock up to "judge" that's ridiculous if you're protecting the timeline you don't unnecessarily endanger it by bringing them in!
Why would Loki be vital?
Because their enemy knows him and the TVA don't!


----------



## Rabulias

hopeless said:


> Only if the TVA exists outside of any reality.
> Now if they were plucked from the many fake gauntlets like the one Odin had then you would have a better explanation for their existence.
> Personally I'd be more happy if they had sucked them dry first so they were rendered powerless because that power is being used by the TVA in their own version of a Gauntlet except its more like a Power Battery fuelling their abilities and they're keeping quiet about that part...



Interesting theory... but if that's true, then the TVA would _need _alternate timelines to crop up, not just as a purpose/work to do, but more importantly to keep themselves powered!


----------



## hopeless

Rabulias said:


> Interesting theory... but if that's true, then the TVA would _need _alternate timelines to crop up, not just as a purpose/work to do, but more importantly to keep themselves powered!



And would explain their bringing in Loki.
Maybe his powers aren't nullfied merely being drained to support the TVA?


----------



## Blue

Stalker0 said:


> I think one of the issues with "damage already done" is that we have already seen that the current actions leading up to the Avengers beating of Thanos was "enforced" as the proper timeline.



Just using this as an example that several posters are saying.

We have seen _nothing_ that the TVA has done anything of the sort.  What we have seen is the _TVA taking credit_ that it picked a "sacred timeline" where that happened.  So first we have to believe them, and then it's not something *they* did. it's something *others* did and they decided to keep as canon.

If you go to a fanfic fandom on AO3, pick out a bunch of stories that don't conflict with each other you consider your person canon, call it a "sacred timeline".  You are still not the author of those stories.  And claiming to others not in the know that that is the true and only canon in the fandom is still a lie.


----------



## MarkB

I do wonder whether the Timekeepers are selecting for anything in particular when they determine what is the "Sacred Timeline", or if it's just "any timeline in which people don't set off a bunch of alternate timelines and start a Time War".


----------



## Parmandur

Paul Farquhar said:


> Unlike the comics, the MCU has aging actors to cope with, which makes it more likely at least some characters will stay dead.



Early on, Kevin Feige would make the comparison to James Bond being replaced periodically, but that's not the direction they've gone...so far.


----------



## Stalker0

Parmandur said:


> Early on, Kevin Feige would make the comparison to James Bond being replaced periodically, but that's not the direction they've gone...so far.




And hopefully for some time. I think that is one of Marvel's strengths in this "world of remakes".... while almost every storyline is a "remake" of a comic story, to their tv/movie audience its all brand new. That is a powerful tool when your competitors are literally making the same thing they made 10 or even 5 years ago.

Once Marvel starts retreading old characters they will lose that, so I would hope they still clear of it as long as its creatively feasible.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Stalker0 said:


> Once Marvel starts retreading old characters they will lose that, so I would hope they still clear of it as long as its creatively feasible.




Titles/aliases will stay the same, the characters holding them will change. We have a new Captain America now. And there is a variation of Ironman in Ironheart. We are getting a new Black Widow who is a different person and different name. And so on.


----------



## trappedslider




----------



## BRayne

MarkB said:


> I do wonder whether the Timekeepers are selecting for anything in particular when they determine what is the "Sacred Timeline", or if it's just "any timeline in which people don't set off a bunch of alternate timelines and start a Time War".




I'm inclined to think that the one they chose to be the "sacred timeline" is the one that leads to their creation


----------



## Horwath




----------



## Umbran

BRayne said:


> I'm inclined to think that the one they chose to be the "sacred timeline" is the one that leads to their creation




Well, if they are from within the multiverse, it would have to, now wouldn't it?


----------



## MarkB

Umbran said:


> Well, if they are from within the multiverse, it would have to, now wouldn't it?



Unless the plot twist turns out to be that the Timekeepers themselves are Variants orphaned from lost timelines, and they took on the job of policing the timeline partially to avoid being policed themselves.


----------



## Parmandur

I think the TVA is a propaganda front for Kang the Conquerer.


----------



## Maxperson

I don't think the TVA is so strong that they can shut down infinity gems.  I think that their headquarters is somehow outside of time where the stones and other powers won't work.  Otherwise their groups wouldn't be taken down so easily by enemy Loki.


----------



## Umbran

Parmandur said:


> I think the TVA is a propaganda front for Kang the Conquerer.




The TVA sure _looks_ too big to be just propaganda.


----------



## Umbran

Maxperson said:


> I don't think the TVA is so strong that they can shut down infinity gems. I think that their headquarters is somehow outside of time where the stones and other powers won't work.




Agreed.  It is actually quite plausible that infinity stones have no power outside their home reality.


----------



## Mallus

Horwath said:


> View attachment 138309



You watched the first episode of Loki and thought "wow they're out of ideas"???!!!


----------



## Parmandur

Umbran said:


> The TVA sure _looks_ too big to be just propaganda.



Not just propaganda, but the story they tell their membership: a lot of the characters in the first episode that have comic book equivalents are Kang-adjacent, and there were already rumors he would be the next Rhaboa...so, just calling it early:the TVA is all about ensuring the rise of Kang, and keeping him on top with his space lizard front.


----------



## Maxperson

Umbran said:


> Agreed.  It is actually quite plausible that infinity stones have no power outside their home reality.



I agree about the drawer of stones.  Those probably belonged to the myriad of timelines that were combined into the primary.  I was more thinking of the tesseract which has a stone from the primary timeline and Loki's inability to use his own powers.  That combination is what makes me think that they are outside of time.


----------



## Umbran

Maxperson said:


> That combination is what makes me think that they are outside of time.




I think that was established when Loki asked how long Mobius had worked there, and Mobius answered that it was hard to tell, because time worked differently in the TVA, rather established that fact.


----------



## Umbran

Parmandur said:


> so, just calling it early:the TVA is all about ensuring the rise of Kang, and keeping him on top with his space lizard front.




The reverse is also equally possible - that the TVA is about ensuring no Kangs arise... and it will fail, because Loki is gonna bust it, leading to the Multiverse of Madness for Dr Strange.


----------



## Maxperson

Umbran said:


> I think that was established when Loki asked how long Mobius had worked there, and Mobius answered that it was hard to tell, because time worked differently in the TVA, rather established that fact.



Differently could also be slower or faster due to reasons, not necessarily that it's outside of time.


----------



## Umbran

Maxperson said:


> Differently could also be slower or faster due to reasons, not necessarily that it's outside of time.




To do what it does, it _has_ to be outside time.  Otherwise, with each branching of a universe, you get another TVA, that thinks it is in the Sacred Timeline, and the other one is the deviant, and you get different TVA teams showing up to stop each other.


----------



## Zaukrie

Umbran said:


> To do what it does, it _has_ to be outside time.  Otherwise, with each branching of a universe, you get another TVA, that thinks it is in the Sacred Timeline, and the other one is the deviant, and you get different TVA teams showing up to stop each other.



Which sounds like an interesting plot, but not this plot.....


----------



## hopeless

Is it possible the TVA is actually within the Quantumverse and they're unaware of the precise details as that would put the TVA in danger of being discovered and the reason the Variant Foe is being so successful is because they recognised the TVA Squads have no idea of their vulnerabilities?
For example soaking the ground in some flammable liquid or substance then dropping the flame catching them by surprise as they have no idea they've walked into a trap and their reaction is what allows their foe to kill them so rapidly.
I'm wondering if they have some kind of temporal stasis in effect when they arrive that freezes time, but doesn't stop things like them being set on fire and they can't switch off the field to smother the flame like the one seen in that clip does trying to crawl away.
Is that possible?


----------



## Umbran

hopeless said:


> Is it possible the TVA is actually within the Quantumverse and they're unaware of the precise details as that would put the TVA in danger of being discovered and the reason the Variant Foe is being so successful is because they recognised the TVA Squads have no idea of their vulnerabilities?




Most things are, technically, possible.  However...

I don't think it plausible that the TVA people are so naive as to be unaware of fire, and that fire will damage them.  



hopeless said:


> For example soaking the ground in some flammable liquid or substance then dropping the flame catching them by surprise as they have no idea they've walked into a trap and their reaction is what allows their foe to kill them so rapidly.




I think it is more likely they just didn't realize there was oil present at all.  Occam's Razor, and all that.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Umbran said:


> I think it is more likely they just didn't realize there was oil present at all.  Occam's Razor, and all that.




No, one of them bent down and touched the liquid and said it was oil and someone must be there in 1858 Oklahoma to get rich. What they had no idea about, was how much oil there was and that, yes, they were about to be trapped.


----------



## embee

Umbran said:


> Most things are, technically, possible.  However...
> 
> I don't think it plausible that the TVA people are so naive as to be unaware of fire, and that fire will damage them.
> 
> 
> 
> I think it is more likely they just didn't realize there was oil present at all.  Occam's Razor, and all that.



Not really when you consider that, historically, the TVA was more associated with hydropower.


----------



## Maxperson

Umbran said:


> To do what it does, it _has_ to be outside time.  Otherwise, with each branching of a universe, you get another TVA, that thinks it is in the Sacred Timeline, and the other one is the deviant, and you get different TVA teams showing up to stop each other.



Theoretically, they could have used the set of infinity stones or even just the time stone from one of the other timelines to isolate it and preserve it.  I think being outside of time is the simplest and most probable answer, but it isn't the only possible answer.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

I would say the TVA's weakness is they _think_ the know what is going to happen next. They believe they can't be surprised, so are vulnerable to anything which dos come as a surprise.


----------



## Davies

Episode 2, as I watch:



Spoiler



Mobius continues to demonstrate a _deep_ understanding of what motivates Loki.

Mobius has never met the Time Keepers. I wonder if Mobius is familiar with the concept of the noble lie.

Franklin D. Roosevelt High School is a set-up for something, but I don't know what yet.

Well, that's something to look forward to in 27 years.

Not what I was expecting her to look like.


----------



## Stalker0

Considering this can cover all of time and space, its surpringingly earth-centric so far. Is that purely a budgetary reasons....or is there a plot point behind it.


----------



## pukunui

Well, that escalated quickly!


----------



## Bagpuss

ModestModernist said:


> I had to look up D.B. Cooper, I’d never heard of that.
> There were 14 different suspects in the wiki entry.




I'm wondering how many of the MCU fans are likely to know about a news story from decades before they were born.


----------



## hopeless

Sounded like it was an improvement.


Spoiler



So she has been running circles around them by virtue of selecting locations where there are no survivors so nobody to mention seeing her?


Regarding the comment above


Spoiler



Kang went to school there?


----------



## hopeless

Bagpuss said:


> I'm wondering how many of the MCU fans are likely to know about a news story from decades before they were born.



Raises hand.
I'm a fan of the Leverage tv series, that's MY excuse!


----------



## Bagpuss

Zaukrie said:


> I get all that. But being able to turn off an infinity stone is a bridge too far for me.....



I'm not sure if they turn them off exactly, more it is a product of where they are. The infinity stones are about controlling the universe, but at the TVA they are effectively out of the universe so have nothing to control.

It's like if you took your TV remote out into the middle of a field away from your TV at home. You haven't stopped your TV remote working or being a TV remote, it just hasn't got a TV to effect.

They also have so many as I suspect they are often involved creating timelines that they have to prune, so they become useless trinkets.


----------



## hopeless

Which would make them very useful if they locate a timeline it does work within.
Still think they would need to drain it first to avoid any problems like the reality stone being the most likely to be unaffected by that limitation.


----------



## Bagpuss

hopeless said:


> Which would make them very useful if they locate a timeline it does work within.



If I was GM (Script writer) they would only work in the one universe... so if that universe was pruned, it's just a pretty bauble now and forever.


----------



## pukunui

Stalker0 said:


> Considering this can cover all of time and space, its surpringingly earth-centric so far. Is that purely a budgetary reasons....or is there a plot point behind it.



I suspect the TVA has different divisions devoted to different species / worlds. Everyone we’ve seen so far has been human because they’re all part of the division overseeing activities on Earth.

Just my hunch.

Could also be a frame of reference thing. Visiting Xandar’s past wouldn’t resonate with the audience as much as visiting Pompeii or an 80s ren faire does.


----------



## BRayne

Bagpuss said:


> I'm not sure if they turn them off exactly, more it is a product of where they are. The infinity stones are about controlling the universe, but at the TVA they are effectively out of the universe so have nothing to control.
> 
> It's like if you took your TV remote out into the middle of a field away from your TV at home. You haven't stopped your TV remote working or being a TV remote, it just hasn't got a TV to effect.
> 
> They also have so many as I suspect they are often involved creating timelines that they have to prune, so they become useless trinkets.




It's no coincidence that the one they had the most copies of was the time stone


----------



## Older Beholder

Bagpuss said:


> I'm wondering how many of the MCU fans are likely to know about a news story from decades before they were born.



For sure, I thought it was an MCU reference until I looked it up.


----------



## Mind of tempest

I have 19 mins left of the show so far conclusions.

there is something super off with the tva, hiding in a place that gets destroyed is logical from an in-universe perspective.
I really get loki and that makes me uncomfortable.


----------



## Tonguez

Stalker0 said:


> Considering this can cover all of time and space, its surpringingly earth-centric so far. Is that purely a budgetary reasons....or is there a plot point behind it.



I suspect its a metaplot reason and theyre going to keep the weird stuff for the Movies (especially Multiverse of Madness)




Bagpuss said:


> I'm wondering how many of the MCU fans are likely to know about a news story from decades before they were born.



I like that its a deep cut that only certain geeks will know, not every easter egg needs to be there for the general consumption.


----------



## Mind of tempest

also, the future really sucks 52 year old me will hate it.


----------



## trappedslider

Bagpuss said:


> I'm wondering how many of the MCU fans are likely to know about a news story from decades before they were born.



I knew about before the Leverage tv series, but then again, I have a thing for some unsolved mysteries like that 


Tonguez said:


> I like that its a deep cut that only certain geeks will know, not every easter egg needs to be there for the general consumption.



Historical in-joke.


----------



## Rabulias

Davies said:


> Episode 2, as I watch:
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Franklin D. Roosevelt High School is a set-up for something, but I don't know what yet.



I may be reading too much into this, but I wonder if it's more than just a minor thing that Mobius is not sure where she got it and/or why she has it. Perhaps it is a name that has no meaning to him, from a pruned timeline that no longer exists, indicating that something very bad is afoot by the TVA?


----------



## MarkB

Rabulias said:


> I may be reading too much into this, but I wonder if it's more than just a minor thing that Mobius is not sure where she got it and/or why she has it. Perhaps it is a name that has no meaning to him, from a pruned timeline that no longer exists, indicating that something very bad is afoot by the TVA?



One thing I wondered (which I've kind-of wondered since we first saw that big cityscape of the TVA) is whether the TVA itself is recursive, using minor variants of its buildings and staff members in infinite combinations, all rigged so that they never directly interact with each other.

So, maybe the other agents that Mobius's superior oversees are... other Mobiuses. Mobii?


----------



## MarkB

So, Timeline Variance is a Thing, it has an energy signature and can be traced. And we've seen what the temporal reset charges do - they nuke the entire area, but selectively. One would presume that they do so by only targeting people and objects which have a variance signature.

In which case, why does The Variant dropping them off in loads of different times and places cause divergent timelines? If a charge goes off where there's nothing variant to be erased, wouldn't it be just a momentary harmless light show? Maybe The Variant changed their targeting parameters.


----------



## Morrus

Loki's still coming across as a bit dumb and incompetent to me. This guy is no god of mischief.


----------



## Mind of tempest

Morrus said:


> Loki's still coming across as a bit dumb and incompetent to me. This guy is no god of mischief.



I believe it is because the other person is a more experienced version of himself thus he is working with less data, add in his need to leave the TVA and him being a bit self-sabotaging he would be weaker at this moment but this is all set up.


----------



## Morrus

Mind of tempest said:


> I believe it is because the other person is a more experienced version of himself thus he is working with less data, add in his need to leave the TVA and him being a bit self-sabotaging he would be weaker at this moment but this is all set up.



No, just generally. Whoever he talks to.


----------



## Mind of tempest

Morrus said:


> No, just generally. Whoever he talks to.



he acts like a giddy school child wishing to show off, what does intelligent look like to you?


----------



## Morrus

Mind of tempest said:


> he acts like a giddy school child wishing to show off, what does intelligent look like to you?



No, he acts like a gabbling buffoon. Not the expert at manipulation he's known as.


----------



## Tonguez

Morrus said:


> Loki's still coming across as a bit dumb and incompetent to me. This guy is no god of mischief.



Yeah, And a lot weaker physically too - I assume the bearded guy Loki had a scuffle with was human, yet he throws Loki down? His schemes dont seem very clever either, that might be bad writing— or is it deliberate misdirect?



MarkB said:


> So, Timeline Variance is a Thing, it has an energy signature and can be traced. And we've seen what the temporal reset charges do - they nuke the entire area, but selectively. One would presume that they do so by only targeting people and objects which have a variance signature.
> 
> In which case, why does The Variant dropping them off in loads of different times and places cause divergent timelines? If a charge goes off where there's nothing variant to be erased, wouldn't it be just a momentary harmless light show? Maybe The Variant changed their targeting parameters.



I think the implication is that the charges blitz everything in a small area, so if a person is in the area when the charge drops their entire timeline gets erased thus causing the anomalies


----------



## Mind of tempest

Tonguez said:


> Yeah, And a lot weaker physically too - I assume the bearded guy Loki had a scuffle with was human, yet he throws Loki down? His schemes dont seem very clever either, that might be bad writing— or is it deliberate misdirect?
> 
> 
> I think the implication is that the charges blitz everything in a small area, so if a person is in the area when the charge drops their entire timeline gets erased thus causing the anomalies



I think loki is trying to a lay of things and take over the tva but he is a bit lacking in data.


----------



## Morrus

Mind of tempest said:


> I think loki is trying to a lay of things and take over the tva but he is a bit lacking in data.



It's not the data. It's the general demeanor.


----------



## MarkB

Morrus said:


> Loki's still coming across as a bit dumb and incompetent to me. This guy is no god of mischief.



I dunno, she seemed pretty smart to me.


----------



## Stalker0

Tonguez said:


> Yeah, And a lot weaker physically too - I assume the bearded guy Loki had a scuffle with was human, yet he throws Loki down?



I agree that the fight scene in the store was very weak. Compared to what we saw in Wandvision and F/WS, it was plain anemic.

Now I could believe that the human was "enhanced" by whatever juice flowed into him....but I should be seeing Captain America level moves to even threaten Loki if that's the case, not just weakly tossing him into some cardboard boxes.

Considering that Loki hasn't even tried to use his magic for any defense or offense at this point....my thought (read: hope) is that Loki is playing possum, showcasing how "weak" he is to the other one so they will underestimate him and reveal more than they intend. Because otherwise....this isn't a fraction of the Loki we have seen in other outings.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

A major spoiler, courtesy of the show's credits in non-US markets:



Spoiler



English credits list the "Lady Loki" character only as The Variant. French credits list that character as Sylvie, probably Sylvie Lushton AKA The Enchantress. So not Lady Loki, unless the MCU is going to combine the two together into one character.


----------



## Older Beholder

Stalker0 said:


> I agree that the fight scene in the store was very weak. Compared to what we saw in Wandvision and F/WS, it was plain anemic.




The use of a vacuum cleaner in that fight was amazing though.


----------



## MarkB

Tonguez said:


> I think the implication is that the charges blitz everything in a small area, so if a person is in the area when the charge drops their entire timeline gets erased thus causing the anomalies



Yeah, but it wasn't totally indiscriminate. It took out the TVA gear, and the bits of wood that got broken in the fight, but it rolled right over the grass without harming it.


Stalker0 said:


> Considering that Loki hasn't even tried to use his magic for any defense or offense at this point....my thought (read: hope) is that Loki is playing possum, showcasing how "weak" he is to the other one so they will underestimate him and reveal more than they intend. Because otherwise....this isn't a fraction of the Loki we have seen in other outings.



I assumed that he believed it would be pointless to even try to fool another Loki with his powers.


----------



## Stalker0

MarkB said:


> I assumed that he believed it would be pointless to even try to fool another Loki with his powers.



Considering that he has already stated himself to the be the "superior" Loki, you would think he would at least make the attempt.

But again we will see on this one, they may be playing up Loki's "weakness" for a "big reveal" towards the end. Or maybe they just dropped the ball on him....we will see.


----------



## Maxperson

MarkB said:


> So, Timeline Variance is a Thing, it has an energy signature and can be traced. And we've seen what the temporal reset charges do - they nuke the entire area, but selectively. One would presume that they do so by only targeting people and objects which have a variance signature.
> 
> In which case, why does The Variant dropping them off in loads of different times and places cause divergent timelines? If a charge goes off where there's nothing variant to be erased, wouldn't it be just a momentary harmless light show? Maybe The Variant changed their targeting parameters.



I gathered that the charges disintegrate the entire section of the timeline allowing it to heal.  Enough simultaneously disintegrated sections could cause a lot of trouble.


----------



## Umbran

Bagpuss said:


> I'm wondering how many of the MCU fans are likely to know about a news story from decades before they were born.




"Cooper has appeared in the story lines of the television series Prison Break, The Blacklist, NewsRadio, Leverage, Journeyman, Renegade, Numb3rs, 30 Rock, Drunk History, and Loki, as well as the 1981 film The Pursuit of D. B. Cooper, the 2004 film Without a Paddle, and a book titled The Vesuvius Prophecy, based on The 4400 TV series."


----------



## Umbran

Morrus said:


> It's not the data. It's the general demeanor.




Well, how would you get people to underestimate you?  Surely, not by being competent and confident.  

Loki here has a problem - a trickster's ability to pull tricks is based on _understanding the situation_.  Loki does not understand the TVA, and that hampers his ability to pull off much of anything.

But, more importantly, Mobius _already told us_ Loki hasn't been acting much like a trickster.  It has been established explicitly in the show itself.


----------



## Umbran

Maxperson said:


> Theoretically, they could have used the set of infinity stones or even just the time stone from one of the other timelines to isolate it and preserve it...




If it is isolated, it is then... outside the normal timestream!  I don't care about what hand-waving they to around _how_ it is made separate - indeed, I don't think they'll address it at all unless it becomes plot-relevant.


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan

Bagpuss said:


> I'm wondering how many of the MCU fans are likely to know about a news story from decades before they were born.



I knew! I live in Washington, so that was in my History class in High School.


----------



## Umbran

Stalker0 said:


> Considering this can cover all of time and space, its surpringingly earth-centric so far. Is that purely a budgetary reasons....or is there a plot point behind it.




In the comics, there are several plot points around why Earth is so important.


----------



## Umbran

Paul Farquhar said:


> I would say the TVA's weakness is they _think_ the know what is going to happen next. They believe they can't be surprised, so are vulnerable to anything which dos come as a surprise.




I don't get that.  If they knew what was going to happen, they'd never be surprised by a new variant.  So, no, they know they don't know.

They are still arrogant enough to think they can always handle it...


----------



## JEB

MarkB said:


> So, Timeline Variance is a Thing, it has an energy signature and can be traced. And we've seen what the temporal reset charges do - they nuke the entire area, but selectively. One would presume that they do so by only targeting people and objects which have a variance signature.






Tonguez said:


> I think the implication is that the charges blitz everything in a small area, so if a person is in the area when the charge drops their entire timeline gets erased thus causing the anomalies






Maxperson said:


> I gathered that the charges disintegrate the entire section of the timeline allowing it to heal.  Enough simultaneously disintegrated sections could cause a lot of trouble.



Based on this article, it sounds like the fact that we're not clear exactly how Reset Charges work is a plot point...

It does now seem pretty clear that alt-Loki intends to break the "Sacred Timeline" and bring back a multiverse (apparently by deleting various sections of it and forcing divergences). The question is, to what end?


----------



## Maxperson

JEB said:


> Based on this article, it sounds like the fact that we're not clear exactly how Reset Charges work is a plot point...
> 
> It does now seem pretty clear that alt-Loki intends to break the "Sacred Timeline" and bring back a multiverse (apparently by deleting various sections of it and forcing divergences). The question is, to what end?



That article says what I said, though.  Loki says that it disintegrates the "infected" portion of the timeline, which Mobius confirmed.  The enemy Loki probably has specific vulnerable points in time that are all being disintegrated at once.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Stalker0 said:


> Considering this can cover all of time and space, its surpringingly earth-centric so far. Is that purely a budgetary reasons....or is there a plot point behind it.




While they may not visit other planets, go back and watch at the very end, when it shows the screen listing all the new timeline branches. The "female Loki" sent the charges to Vormir (the Soul Stone planet), Asgard, Thanos' home of Titan, Xandar, Ego the Living Planet, Sakaar, Kree-occupied Hala, and a bunch of places on Earth. Plus who knows where else that was not shown on that screen.


----------



## JEB

Maxperson said:


> That article says what I said, though.  Loki says that it disintegrates the "infected" portion of the timeline, which Mobius confirmed.  The enemy Loki probably has specific vulnerable points in time that are all being disintegrated at once.




Loki's exact words (which, as you noted, Mobius confirmed):


> Reset Charges prune the affected radius of a branched timeline, allowing time to heal all its wounds. Which, by the way, sounds like a nice way of saying disintegrate everything in its vicinity.




As @MarkB pointed out, we see the variant stuff (like dead TVA agents) disappearing, but grass and such are left behind - presumably because things are being rolled back to what would be on the "Sacred Timeline" at that point.

The question is, what happens when you "reset" chunks of history that _haven't_ been altered by time travel? Obviously, this results in massive divergences and new branch timelines... but that suggests the Reset Charges were either altered in function by alt-Loki, or they don't work the way the TVA says they do. (One thought - maybe the Reset Charges rolled back changes _made by the Time Keepers themselves_.)

I assume, of course, this will all be explained in upcoming episodes...


----------



## Maxperson

JEB said:


> Loki's exact words (which, as you noted, Mobius confirmed):
> 
> 
> As @MarkB pointed out, we see the variant stuff (like dead TVA agents) disappearing, but grass and such are left behind - presumably because things are being rolled back to what would be on the "Sacred Timeline" at that point.
> 
> The question is, what happens when you "reset" chunks of history that _haven't_ been altered by time travel? Obviously, this results in massive divergences and new branch timelines... but that suggests the Reset Charges were either altered in function by alt-Loki, or they don't work the way the TVA says they do. (One thought - maybe the Reset Charges rolled back changes _made by the Time Keepers themselves_.)
> 
> I assume, of course, this will all be explained in upcoming episodes...



The existence of the grass after the Reset Charge goes off doesn't necessarily mean that the entire section wasn't disintegrated. That grass presumable existed before and would exist after the infected section of the timeline is pruned, so it would appear as if it hadn't been affected. The same would go for the other things that appeared to be unaffected.


----------



## Tonguez

Maxperson said:


> That article says what I said, though.  Loki says that it disintegrates the "infected" portion of the timeline, which Mobius confirmed.  The enemy Loki probably has specific vulnerable points in time that are all being disintegrated at once.



When Loki was looking at the Destruction of Asgard file it said something like a 0.2xxxx Divergence (or something) at the time I wondered if that might be relevant* - I think it might still be relevant, it just seemed too prominent to not matter 

(*my theory was that Alt-Loki might be collecting the Reset Charges in order to harvest those fractional ‘variations’ that diverge but don’t reach the red line - that would be a huge amount of energy if she could harness it 
(I also wondered if Loki was hiding in that tiny fractional gap rather than in various ragnaroks)


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Rabulias said:


> I may be reading too much into this



I doubt it.


Morrus said:


> Loki's still coming across as a bit dumb and incompetent to me. This guy is no god of mischief.



The know who he is. They will be on the lookout for devious scheming. Playing the fool is a way of putting people off their guard. Also a way of staving off boredom when you are the smartest person in the room.


Umbran said:


> Loki here has a problem - a trickster's ability to pull tricks is based on _understanding the situation_. Loki does not understand the TVA, and that hampers his ability to pull off much of anything.



So you play for time, until you do have sufficient understanding. You see Loki trying to acquire more info on the TVA: "we are from the future, aren't we?"

Also see: The Doctor (especially 2 and 4).


Maxperson said:


> I gathered that the charges disintegrate the entire section of the timeline allowing it to heal. Enough simultaneously disintegrated sections could cause a lot of trouble.



Quite, the healing is the important bit. When you destroy "what is supposed to happen" a whole lot of "could happens" appear in it's place.


Stalker0 said:


> Considering this can cover all of time and space, its surpringingly earth-centric so far. Is that purely a budgetary reasons....or is there a plot point behind it.



There are other worlds mentioned on the computer monitors at the end: Xandar, Titan, a few others.


JEB said:


> It does now seem pretty clear that alt-Loki intends to break the "Sacred Timeline" and bring back a multiverse (apparently by deleting various sections of it and forcing divergences). The question is, to what end?



Her choice of music suggests she considers herself the hero.

Not surprising, given the TVA's neo-fascist stylings.

"The restoration of free will" seems like a pretty heroic agenda. On the other hand, our Loki wants to take over the TVA and use it to rule the multiverse.


----------



## pukunui

One thing I liked is when Loki started talking about the science behind his illusion magic. It reminded me of who, in _Thor_, it was established that Asgardians view science and magic as the same thing, but I don't think we ever hear them actually talk about the science side of their magic. So that was nice.


----------



## MarkB

pukunui said:


> One thing I liked is when Loki started talking about the science behind his illusion magic. It reminded me of who, in _Thor_, it was established that Asgardians view science and magic as the same thing, but I don't think we ever hear them actually talk about the science side of their magic. So that was nice.



Yeah, and I wonder whether that was really just some throwaway lore, or an actual plot point. There's a strong possibility that when he used his magic to 'dry' himself, he actually duplicated himself, and that duplicate is who we were following for the rest of the episode.


----------



## hopeless

OH I really like that idea!


Spoiler



She's not Loki that's the Enchantress!
She's using Loki's reputation to hide her true nature otherwise the TVA would be prepared for her antics!
She's tried those tricks even on Captain America and especially Thor!
So I think they might be on to something here.
The TVA HAVE been modifying the timeline and Enchantress sending those charges are intended to counter the TVA's efforts to keep their future or Sacred Timeline the only possible future!



Remember what she said?


Spoiler



This is NOT about YOU!
It really isn't the TVA have been specifically depowering him that's why Loki has been so weakened even then he's managed to figure out what this so-called Variant was doing!



So if this is accurate...


Spoiler



They can only react accordingly as long as they know WHO they're dealing with!
Those infinity stones DO work, please remember all they need to depower them is say the Reality Stone altering reality so they're depowered. And they than have the means to secure their facility and grounds ONLY if they know what they're dealing with.
The Enchantress when they came across her may have been hiding from Helmdall by posing as Loki, Helmdall however would have inevitably seen through her disguise but the TVA didn't!



I'm seriously hoping the spoilers I keep hearing about, the bad ones are wrong this has the potential to be amazing as long as they keep that drivel out of it!


----------



## Umbran

Maxperson said:


> The existence of the grass after the Reset Charge goes off doesn't necessarily mean that the entire section wasn't disintegrated. That grass presumable existed before and would exist after the infected section of the timeline is pruned, so it would appear as if it hadn't been affected. The same would go for the other things that appeared to be unaffected.




Yeah, but if it is replaced by... an exact different version of itself, that should still result in no significant change.  Certainly, you shouldn't be able to create a divergent timeline by disintegrating stuff only to have it replaced by _exact duplicates_. A new timeline requires a significant change to have occurred.


Maxperson said:


> The enemy Loki probably has specific vulnerable points in time that are all being disintegrated at once.




Does anyone else notice the inherent illogic in having differing points in the time disintegrated "at once"?  I expect this represents a fundamental flaw in their time-travel logic, but okay, we'll have to live it with, because comic books.


----------



## tomBitonti

Umbran said:


> Yeah, but if it is replaced by... an exact different version of itself, that should still result in no significant change.  Certainly, you shouldn't be able to create a divergent timeline by disintegrating stuff only to have it replaced by _exact duplicates_. A new timeline requires a significant change to have occurred.
> 
> 
> Does anyone else notice the inherent illogic in having differing points in the time disintegrated "at once"?  I expect this represents a fundamental flaw in their time-travel logic, but okay, we'll have to live it with, because comic books.



It seems that the TVs links to the timeline when dealing with a deviant.  There was a discussion about needing to go real-time or something like that.  Then the monitoring was occurring at the same “time” as the bombing, and should detect these all at the same time.

what seems to not work is why don’t they detect all deviants at the same time —.in their independent TVs time bubble?  If the are monitoring all of the time stream from outside of the stream, they should see deviancy as fixed events in the stream.

TomB


----------



## Morrus

Paul Farquhar said:


> The know who he is. They will be on the lookout for devious scheming. Playing the fool is a way of putting people off their guard. Also a way of staving off boredom when you are the smartest person in the room.



_If._ I'd like to think that's what's going on, but ... well, I've watched a lot of TV in my time. Usually it's not.


----------



## Umbran

tomBitonti said:


> what seems to not work is why don’t they detect all deviants at the same time —.in their independent TVs time bubble?  If the are monitoring all of the time stream from outside of the stream, they should see deviancy as fixed events in the stream.




We can perhaps cover this by noting that Mobius tells us that, at least from the TVA's perspective, the Time Keepers are still unraveling the future from its myriad alternate timelines - the end of the Universe is not yet written.

Thus, the TVA is outside the MCU time stream, but is not "timeless" - it has its own internal timestream of the Time Keepers (if they exist). 

The TVA's version of the time-ordering of variants would then largely arbitrary.  They see all of Lady-Loki's variants happening "at once" because a team from the TVA was in the Sacred Timmeline, but in communication with a point in the TVA's internal timeline - while they are so, the timelines are "matched up", forcing related time-ordering until the connection is broken.


----------



## Zaukrie

Great writing and acting. Love the tone. And yet, I'm not sure if I love the show. I agree with morrus, Loki seems ridiculously weak so far.


----------



## MarkB

Umbran said:


> We can perhaps cover this by noting that Mobius tells us that, at least from the TVA's perspective, the Time Keepers are still unraveling the future from its myriad alternate timelines - the end of the Universe is not yet written.
> 
> Thus, the TVA is outside the MCU time stream, but is not "timeless" - it has its own internal timestream of the Time Keepers (if they exist).
> 
> The TVA's version of the time-ordering of variants would then largely arbitrary.  They see all of Lady-Loki's variants happening "at once" because a team from the TVA was in the Sacred Timmeline, but in communication with a point in the TVA's internal timeline - while they are so, the timelines are "matched up", forcing related time-ordering until the connection is broken.



It might turn out that the TVA's internal timelines aren't so orderly. Going back to the scene between Mobius and his overseer where he doesn't recognise the pen she hands him, another explanation for this that occurred to me is that maybe their interactions don't occur in a consistent chronological order.

Maybe she has the pen because he gave it to her in her past, but he doesn't recognise it because he won't acquire it and pass it on to her until sometime in his future.


----------



## Zaukrie

What was Mobius’ reply in the free will discussion? Also, if Loki can duplicate himself, but not communicate with his duplicate, that seems risky for him somehow. I assume he can't communicate with himself, as he went in person to communicate with what he thinks is himself.


----------



## MarkB

Zaukrie said:


> What was Mobius’ reply in the free will discussion? Also, if Loki can duplicate himself, but not communicate with his duplicate, that seems risky for him somehow. I assume he can't communicate with himself, as he went in person to communicate with what he thinks is himself.



If I understood his explanation of the difference between his powers and simple illusion magic, one of those differences is that when he creates a duplicate he can perceive the world from its perspective. So he'd be tucked away somewhere being invisible, but able to act and perceive as though he were the duplicate.


----------



## Zaukrie

MarkB said:


> If I understood his explanation of the difference between his powers and simple illusion magic, one of those differences is that when he creates a duplicate he can perceive the world from its perspective. So he'd be tucked away somewhere being invisible, but able to act and perceive as though he were the duplicate.



So he should have known or believed that he wasn't hunting himself? I'm unsure how it really works. Not being a comic reader.... There being a lot of him created, I'm not sure. They've disintegrated more versions of him than anyone else. Yet, he still exists.....if I understood that correctly.... What does that mean?


----------



## MarkB

Zaukrie said:


> So he should have known or believed that he wasn't hunting himself? I'm unsure how it really works. Not being a comic reader.... There being a lot of him created, I'm not sure. They've disintegrated more versions of him than anyone else. Yet, he still exists.....if I understood that correctly.... What does that mean?



We may be talking at cross purposes here. I was talking about the possibility that Loki substituted a duplicate of himself when he did the green flashy magic thing just after they entered the mall, and that the real Loki was off hiding or exploring invisibly elsewhere for the rest of the episode, while the Loki we followed on-screen was a duplicate - a solid, interactive illusion through which the real Loki could perceive, speak and act.


----------



## Zaukrie

MarkB said:


> We may be talking at cross purposes here. I was talking about the possibility that Loki substituted a duplicate of himself when he did the green flashy magic thing just after they entered the mall, and that the real Loki was off hiding or exploring invisibly elsewhere for the rest of the episode, while the Loki we followed on-screen was a duplicate - a solid, interactive illusion through which the real Loki could perceive, speak and act.



I get that....I'm talking about all the Lokis.....given he's been disintegrated over and over as a variant, how does he exist?

Of all the other Lokis in existence, they must not be aware of each other completely, or "our" Loki wouldn't need to find the one he finds to communicate with her. 

To be clear, I'm trying to figure out two things:

1. How is Loki alive if they keep getting rid of him?
2. If there are a lot of Loki out there.....can they not communicate? Does that make them not really Loki? Etc.....so many questions here.


----------



## MarkB

Zaukrie said:


> I get that....I'm talking about all the Lokis.....given he's been disintegrated over and over as a variant, how does he exist?
> 
> Of all the other Lokis in existence, they must not be aware of each other completely, or "our" Loki wouldn't need to find the one he finds to communicate with her.
> 
> To be clear, I'm trying to figure out two things:
> 
> 1. How is Loki alive if they keep getting rid of him?
> 2. If there are a lot of Loki out there.....can they not communicate? Does that make them not really Loki? Etc.....so many questions here.



The suggestion seems to be that they're all variants from different timelines that have been closed off, though given that supposedly the only way that could happen these days is by branching off from the main timeline, the extreme physical variance of different Lokis is hard to explain.

And I didn't get any suggestion that they're working together or even aware of each other - just that he seemingly happens to have had a lot of variants.


----------



## Umbran

Zaukrie said:


> To be clear, I'm trying to figure out two things:
> 
> 1. How is Loki alive if they keep getting rid of him?




Okay, so the long list of Loki Variants each come up when new timelines are created.  When that happens, a duplicate of _every person_ is also made, as it is a full universe.  They catch the variant Loki and collapse his variant timeline, leaving the original in the Sacred Timeline.

This is separate from Loki's ability to make duplicates of himself - that's magic that stays in his universe with him, and is not a separately free-willed individual.  



> 2. If there are a lot of Loki out there.....can they not communicate?




They are, generally speaking, in different timelines.  Loki doesn't generally have the power to skip between timelines, so the variants don't generally interact.  They stay in their own universes.



> Does that make them not really Loki? Etc.....so many questions here.




Well, define what it means to "be Loki."  Note that every time an alternate timeline is created that means alternate versions of _everything_.  Every rock.  Every person.


----------



## Rabulias

MarkB said:


> We may be talking at cross purposes here. I was talking about the possibility that Loki substituted a duplicate of himself when he did the green flashy magic thing just after they entered the mall, and that the real Loki was off hiding or exploring invisibly elsewhere for the rest of the episode, while the Loki we followed on-screen was a duplicate - a solid, interactive illusion through which the real Loki could perceive, speak and act.



Interesting, but I doubt it. IIRC, Loki's previous duplicates have been clearly shown to be illusions when touched or struck. This episode's Loki gets tossed around too much in the store fight to be a duplicate IMO.


----------



## Stalker0

Umbran said:


> Well, define what it means to "be Loki."  Note that every time an alternate timeline is created that means alternate versions of _everything_.  Every rock.  Every person.



And suddenly the opening title sequence just made a lot more sense to me. Dozens of "lokis" in various forms. Can't believe I just got that.


----------



## Zaukrie

Umbran said:


> Okay, so the long list of Loki Variants each come up when new timelines are created.  When that happens, a duplicate of _every person_ is also made, as it is a full universe.  They catch the variant Loki and collapse his variant timeline, leaving the original in the Sacred Timeline.
> 
> This is separate from Loki's ability to make duplicates of himself - that's magic that stays in his universe with him, and is not a separately free-willed individual.
> 
> 
> 
> They are, generally speaking, in different timelines.  Loki doesn't generally have the power to skip between timelines, so the variants don't generally interact.  They stay in their own universes.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, define what it means to "be Loki."  Note that every time an alternate timeline is created that means alternate versions of _everything_.  Every rock.  Every person.



I actually meant that last part about when he creates duplicates of himself, assuming I understood that. Like, did he think he was hunting himself?


----------



## Zaukrie

So, help me out on the variant thing....you are saying that a full new timeline is created at every variation, not just "when it goes red" and duplicates are created, and only the duplicates are killed?


----------



## Marc_C

Didn't like it. The retro aesthetic of the time police is also a turn off. Maybe we will like it more after the second episode.


----------



## Zaukrie

If, when the TVA first encountered our Loki, they weren't out of time and space, how was their puny mortal weapon able to incapacitate a god so easily?


----------



## MarkB

Zaukrie said:


> So, help me out on the variant thing....you are saying that a full new timeline is created at every variation, not just "when it goes red" and duplicates are created, and only the duplicates are killed?



When a new timeline diverges sufficiently to hit the red line, that means it's diverged too far to be reined in with a few reset charges, and is now a full-fledged alternate universe. But even in the time before it reaches that point, if someone manages to somehow skip out of that divergent timeline, as Loki did using the Tesseract, that person becomes a rogue variant and needs to be hunted down, before their actions beget yet more divergent timelines.


Zaukrie said:


> If, when the TVA first encountered our Loki, they weren't out of time and space, how was their puny mortal weapon able to incapacitate a god so easily?



They do potentially have access to every puny mortal weapon ever created in any timeline.


----------



## Zaukrie

MarkB said:


> When a new timeline diverges sufficiently to hit the red line, that means it's diverged too far to be reined in with a few reset charges, and is now a full-fledged alternate universe. But even in the time before it reaches that point, if someone manages to somehow skip out of that divergent timeline, as Loki did using the Tesseract, that person becomes a rogue variant and needs to be hunted down, before their actions beget yet more divergent timelines.
> 
> They do potentially have access to every puny mortal weapon ever created in any timeline.



If he skipped out of that timeline, did he leave another version behind? If not, and they had disintegrated him, would he be dead forever since there was not a version in the sacred timeline anymore?


----------



## Umbran

Zaukrie said:


> I actually meant that last part about when he creates duplicates of himself, assuming I understood that. Like, did he think he was hunting himself?




Ah.  No.  When he creates a duplicate of himself, he controls it - one mind, many bodies.

When a _variant_ of him is created, he does not control it.  

And these are two different processes.


----------



## Umbran

Zaukrie said:


> If he skipped out of that timeline, did he leave another version behind?




Sort of.  

What they are talking about is a form of quantum mechanical "Many Worlds".  When an alternate timeline is created the original timeline still exists.  An _entire duplicate Universe_ is created.

One version of Loki does whatever Sacred Loki does.  _AND_ a Variant Loki goes off in his own entire universe doing whatever he does.  If Variant Loki leaves his Variant Timeline before the timeline is pruned, he becomes Free Agent Loki, a Loki without a timeline of his own.  But the Sacred Loki still exists.


----------



## Tonguez

Zaukrie said:


> So he should have known or believed that he wasn't hunting himself? I'm unsure how it really works. Not being a comic reader.... There being a lot of him created, I'm not sure. They've disintegrated more versions of him than anyone else. Yet, he still exists.....if I understood that correctly.... What does that mean?



Female Loki is from a different timeline and thus Loki-A isnt connected to her like he would be with a duplicate  (ie Female Loki isnt a duplicate shes a real Loki but from a different reality)


----------



## Zaukrie

Umbran said:


> Sort of.
> 
> What they are talking about is a form of quantum mechanical "Many Worlds".  When an alternate timeline is created the original timeline still exists.  An _entire duplicate Universe_ is created.
> 
> One version of Loki does whatever Sacred Loki does.  _AND_ a Variant Loki goes off in his own entire universe doing whatever he does.  If Variant Loki leaves his Variant Timeline before the timeline is pruned, he becomes Free Agent Loki, a Loki without a timeline of his own.  But the Sacred Loki still exists.



Got it. I thought when he used the Tesseract, he left his timeline behind.....but I guess not. Time travel (and multiple versions of reality). So complex (which is funny, as the novel I wrote a couple years ago RELIES on a time discrepancy for a huge part of the plot.....).

Like the "female Loki"....she is out of her timeline / reality / universe.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

You all are still talking about female "Loki" like that is really who she is?


----------



## Zaukrie

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> You all are still talking about female "Loki" like that is really who she is?



Well, I have quotes around that........I am avoiding spoilers as much as possible......even in this thread.


----------



## MarkB

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> You all are still talking about female "Loki" like that is really who she is?



That's what we've been given to work with in the episode. Anything else is speculation.

And, notably, even if the character is going by the name of a character who was a separate person in the comics, that doesn't necessarily mean her origin story in the MCU isn't "variant of Loki".


----------



## Tonguez

MarkB said:


> That's what we've been given to work with in the episode. Anything else is speculation.
> 
> And, notably, even if the character is going by the name of a character who was a separate person in the comics, that doesn't necessarily mean her origin story in the MCU isn't "variant of Loki".



If it is Sylvie then that character wasnt the _real _Enchantress anyway, she was a _creation_ of Loki - and given that they do the whole molecular duplicate speech, her MCU identity might very much be an independent Duplicate of Loki-A


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Even without the spoilers, I would not trust this is actually a female Loki. Too big a reveal for just the 2nd episode. And she was using a power that Loki does not have, but Enchantress does. The only time Loki did something like that, he was using his staff with the infinity stone in it, and it caused a blue glow in the eyes, to match the stone. What this female "Loki" did had a green color to it, which also matches the Enchantress. Being the MCU, it could easily just be a combining of the two female characters into one. And as I read elsewhere, the hair color is not Loki's and the actress does not look like Tom Hiddleston, or at least not to me, and a Variant female Loki would still look like him.


----------



## tomBitonti

Umbran said:


> They are, generally speaking, in different timelines.  Loki doesn't generally have the power to skip between timelines, so the variants don't generally interact.  They stay in their own universes.



Additional text omitted.
The variants did originate in branches, but up now (in the current TVA frame), those branches were all pruned.  Any surviving variants would be in the sacred timeline, and should be able to encounter each other.
*Except, if the variants stay in self pruning apocalypses, those locations branch and presumable would require a hop across streams to visit.
TomB


----------



## Blue

Umbran said:


> Does anyone else notice the inherent illogic in having differing points in the time disintegrated "at once"?  I expect this represents a fundamental flaw in their time-travel logic, but okay, we'll have to live it with, because comic books.



When they first got to the Ren Faire and were talking about Nexus Events there was a bit with Loki asking why they couldn't come in before:


> Loki: Let me ask you this, why don't we just travel back to before the attack, when the Variant first arrives?
> Mobius: Nexus events destabilize the time flow.  This branch is still changing and growing, so you gotta show up in real time.



"Real time"?  Once you have some sort of regular time advancement in the TSA, then there is a concept of simultaneous again.


----------



## hopeless

Spoiler



So because they crapped up the first time they can't just jump back far enough to avoid this Nexus and simply establish an outpost or surveillance to keep an eye on the area so they can find out what happened right up to and before it becomes a Nexus event thus requiring them to turn up in "real time"?


Answer: Primeval the tv series covered this in the first season go watch it, the first few seasons are much better than this!



Spoiler



Yes I'm hoping she's actually the Enchantress and the whole reason the TVA can't deal with her is because they thought she was Loki and she was so annoyed that she's been beating the crap out of them until finding something useful to use their Nexus charges on.


----------



## MarkB

tomBitonti said:


> Additional text omitted.
> The variants did originate in branches, but up now (in the current TVA frame), those branches were all pruned.  Any surviving variants would be in the sacred timeline, and should be able to encounter each other.
> *Except, if the variants stay in self pruning apocalypses, those locations branch and presumable would require a hop across streams to visit.
> TomB



Theoretically, based on the butterfly effect, anytime a Variant steps into the sacred timeline, they immediately create a new branching timeline just by being there - except if they're in a place such as an imminent apocalypse where the effects of their presence are overwhelmed by the circumstances.


----------



## Blue

Zaukrie said:


> If he skipped out of that timeline, did he leave another version behind? If not, and they had disintegrated him, would he be dead forever since there was not a version in the sacred timeline anymore?



Since it has not yet become stable, the reset charges will burn it back to the variation - at the very least Loki picking up the Tesseract, but likely to when the maintimeline!Avengers entered the timeline.  So it will continue from there - with Loki - without him ever getting off track.

So there's no need to create a duplicate, Loki is already there.  Think if it as if books wrote each new page as you got to them, and you ripped a few rogue pages out of a book so that it can get back to writing the approved story as you turned the page.


----------



## Blue

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Even without the spoilers, I would not trust this is actually a female Loki. Too big a reveal for just the 2nd episode.



It's only six episodes long.  So if it was following a Three Act structure the reveal happened at the end of the first act.  Seems right to me.



Enevhar Aldarion said:


> And she was using a power that Loki does not have, but Enchantress does. The only time Loki did something like that, he was using his staff with the infinity stone in it, and it caused a blue glow in the eyes, to match the stone. What this female "Loki" did had a green color to it, which also matches the Enchantress. Being the MCU, it could easily just be a combining of the two female characters into one. And as I read elsewhere, the hair color is not Loki's and the actress does not look like Tom Hiddleston, or at least not to me, and a Variant female Loki would still look like him.



All this makes sense.


----------



## Blue

MarkB said:


> Theoretically, based on the butterfly effect, anytime a Variant steps into the sacred timeline, they immediately create a new branching timeline just by being there - except if they're in a place such as an imminent apocalypse where the effects of their presence are overwhelmed by the circumstances.



And so would the TVA coming to capture them.  I think they are positing a timestream that is more robust.  Much like a real stream, throwing a rock in changes the shape of the flow and causes ripples, but the stream as a whole stays the same -- until you through in a big enough rock.

They measure the variance energy, another thought that it's not boolean like the butterfly effect would require.


----------



## MarkB

Blue said:


> And so would the TVA coming to capture them.



That's what the Temporal Reset Charges are for. They wipe out the variances caused within the local area, resetting the course of events.


----------



## Umbran

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> And as I read elsewhere, the hair color is not Loki's and the actress does not look like Tom Hiddleston, or at least not to me, and a Variant female Loki would still look like him.




What the bloody good is trickster shapeshifting if he's _recognizable_ all the time?  The trickster god is going to be restricted to all being the same guy with stupid fake mustaches tacked on?  Disguises are not useful if everyone can see through them! 

And... Hair color?  Loki can shift shape.  Even gender.  In the sagas, even _species_ (as Loki is the biological mother of Odin's steed, Sleipnir).  But somehow, he's gotta keep his hair color?  Heck - she's been holding up in the equivalent of a Wal-mart, where there'll be a cosmetics section loaded with _hair-coloring products, _she's gotta maintain hair color?  Really?

They tell us specifically that the Loki variants show a surprising amount of variation from the one found in the Sacred Timeline.


----------



## BrokenTwin

It's... okay, so far. Would be nice to see Loki actually earn an on-screen win, since he's been mostly jobbing to establish other character's cred since the start of the MCU. Or do literally anything to earn his trickster moniker. They've been blatant about his need to evolve for a while now, but seem gun-shy towards actually letting him do so. The first episode gave me hope when they let him see the rest of his "Sacred Timeline" life and not totally wipe out his character development ala Gamora, but then episode 2 comes and he's right back to jobbing.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Umbran said:


> They tell us specifically that the Loki variants show a surprising amount of variation from the one found in the Sacred Timeline.




And every image of a variant Loki they showed us still had Hiddleston's face.


----------



## Morrus

Something confuses me.

The TVA maintains a single timeline, and prevents a multiverse. Under its control, there are no other timelines, just one sacred timeline.

Where do all these dozens of alternate Loki come from, if there is no multiverse?

I’m assuming that the result of this series is that at the end there will be a multiverse, which leads into the next Doctor Strange movie. And that will probably be Loki’s doing.

But right now there’s just the one sacred timeline right? So where do all those other Loki’s come from?


----------



## Maxperson

Morrus said:


> Something confuses me.
> 
> The TVA maintains a single timeline, and prevents a multiverse. Under its control, there are no other timelines, just one sacred timeline.
> 
> Where do all these dozens of alternate Loki come from, if there is no multiverse?
> 
> I’m assuming that the result of this series is that at the end there will be a multiverse, which leads into the next Doctor Strange movie. And that will probably be Loki’s doing.
> 
> But right now there’s just the one sacred timeline right? So where do all those other Loki’s come from?



Looking at the images in the show and from what we have seen regarding timelines, I think the sacred timeline is like a great river and like most great rivers, it has tributaries which are minor alternate timelines that don't mess up the sacred timeline or diverge into another major alternate.  The other Loki's would be from those.


----------



## MarkB

Morrus said:


> Something confuses me.
> 
> The TVA maintains a single timeline, and prevents a multiverse. Under its control, there are no other timelines, just one sacred timeline.
> 
> Where do all these dozens of alternate Loki come from, if there is no multiverse?
> 
> I’m assuming that the result of this series is that at the end there will be a multiverse, which leads into the next Doctor Strange movie. And that will probably be Loki’s doing.
> 
> But right now there’s just the one sacred timeline right? So where do all those other Loki’s come from?



Yeah, that's weird to me too. These variants aren't just versions of the main-timeline Loki who went a different path at some point - some of them were clearly different right from birth, and some would seem to have had entirely different origins. Can they truly be considered variants of this Loki? Do they share anything with him beyond a name?


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Morrus said:


> Something confuses me.
> 
> The TVA maintains a single timeline, and prevents a multiverse. Under its control, there are no other timelines, just one sacred timeline.
> 
> Where do all these dozens of alternate Loki come from, if there is no multiverse?
> 
> I’m assuming that the result of this series is that at the end there will be a multiverse, which leads into the next Doctor Strange movie. And that will probably be Loki’s doing.
> 
> But right now there’s just the one sacred timeline right? So where do all those other Loki’s come from?




Maybe since the TVA exists outside of the standard time flow, the other Lokis are all from the alternate timelines that were just created at the end of episode 2? But because time travel is weird, the TVA did not realize those Lokis had been spawned by an event they did not know had not happened yet? While the past and present are set by the Sacred Timeline, the future is still a big tangle of possibilities that they are still trying to straighten out and make into the Sacred Timeline.


----------



## JEB

Presumably if a branch timeline is created and passes the "red line", it's harder to erase and lasts longer. If it happened far enough back and lasted long enough, I could see it generating some of the very different variant Lokis we saw. They're just not necessarily the cause of the divergence, but a result of it, perhaps spawning additional branch timelines of their own. 

I assume we'll learn more whenever they explain the Variant's origins...


----------



## Zaukrie

Morrus said:


> Something confuses me.
> 
> The TVA maintains a single timeline, and prevents a multiverse. Under its control, there are no other timelines, just one sacred timeline.
> 
> Where do all these dozens of alternate Loki come from, if there is no multiverse?
> 
> I’m assuming that the result of this series is that at the end there will be a multiverse, which leads into the next Doctor Strange movie. And that will probably be Loki’s doing.
> 
> But right now there’s just the one sacred timeline right? So where do all those other Loki’s come from?



Pretty much the question I've been asking.....


----------



## Blue

Morrus said:


> Something confuses me.
> 
> The TVA maintains a single timeline, and prevents a multiverse. Under its control, there are no other timelines, just one sacred timeline.
> 
> Where do all these dozens of alternate Loki come from, if there is no multiverse?
> 
> I’m assuming that the result of this series is that at the end there will be a multiverse, which leads into the next Doctor Strange movie. And that will probably be Loki’s doing.
> 
> But right now there’s just the one sacred timeline right? So where do all those other Loki’s come from?



The TVA is in the process of moving to a single sacred timeline.  We already know they aren't finished with it.  These are likely Lokis from various timelines they are pruning.  It is just that Loki is the most successful being at evading their attempts to prune a timeline and therefore become a Variant.


----------



## MarkB

Blue said:


> The TVA is in the process of moving to a single sacred timeline.  We already know they aren't finished with it.  These are likely Lokis from various timelines they are pruning.  It is just that Loki is the most successful being at evading their attempts to prune a timeline and therefore become a Variant.



That's not quite how it was presented. The sacred timeline is indicated to be a fait accompli at this point, it's just that they don't yet know how it will end, because supposedly the Timekeepers are still working on that.

None of the TVA activities we've been shown are about pruning away already-existing independent timelines. They're all about nipping newly-branching timelines in the bud.


----------



## tomBitonti

Hmm.  This isn’t indicated anywhere. But the alternate Loki’s could explain if the sacred timeline was more of a sacred braid of nearly equivalent timelines.  Branches having inconsequential changes that eventually merge back.
TomB


----------



## Blue

MarkB said:


> That's not quite how it was presented. The sacred timeline is indicated to be a fait accompli at this point, it's just that they don't yet know how it will end, because supposedly the Timekeepers are still working on that.
> 
> None of the TVA activities we've been shown are about pruning away already-existing independent timelines. They're all about nipping newly-branching timelines in the bud.



Yes, their propaganda education does imply that it's done deal.  Then we hear that it's not -- in exactly what you quoted.  So, if Mobius was telling the truth, it's still being worked on.  So all we need that parts containing Loki(s) were "done" less than a Loki-lifespan ago.

From the Thor movie we know Thor himself was around 1500 years old and Loki around 1070.  That gives us plenty of time that "oh it's a single timeline" that we can still have plenty of pre-sacred-timeline Lokis about.


----------



## hopeless

Then who knows which Loki actually died at Thanos's hands then?
All it takes is to notice how Thanos got himself killed the second time to realise he can simply replace the version killed like he did in Thor the Dark World and that was effective not sure it would work on Thanos and his children mind you.


----------



## MarkB

Blue said:


> Yes, their propaganda education does imply that it's done deal.  Then we hear that it's not -- in exactly what you quoted.  So, if Mobius was telling the truth, it's still being worked on.  So all we need that parts containing Loki(s) were "done" less than a Loki-lifespan ago.
> 
> From the Thor movie we know Thor himself was around 1500 years old and Loki around 1070.  That gives us plenty of time that "oh it's a single timeline" that we can still have plenty of pre-sacred-timeline Lokis about.



The part I quoted was more about them not having decided what the far-distant future would look like rather than not having taken care of the pre-existing timelines. But then again, I take anything the TVA say about their whole mission statement with an entire ocean's worth of salt, so yeah, we'll just have to wait and see what the actual truth is behind their propaganda.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Something else to think about until they explain it in the show, but every single reset charge sent, that we were shown a destination for, was sent to the past, except for one, and that one went to Vormir way in the future, in 2301. And yes, they were all shown in Earth dates, even the ones that went to other planets. Of course, we don't know where or when they all were sent, since there were a lot more in that scene than were shown on the TVA screens. But if the past is a stable timeline, then sending a bunch back in time makes sense to destabilize the whole Sacred Timeline. Sending them to the future would not make much sense, as the future of the timeline is not set yet, unless what is the future for us is the past for her. So her timeline branch may not occur until after the date of that Vormir reset charge.


----------



## Blue

MarkB said:


> The part I quoted was more about them not having decided what the far-distant future would look like rather than not having taken care of the pre-existing timelines. But then again, I take anything the TVA say about their whole mission statement with an entire ocean's worth of salt, so yeah, we'll just have to wait and see what the actual truth is behind their propaganda.



"Far distant" is never anything they said.  It seems that's an assumption that "the epilogue" isn't close.  For all we know, the Sacred Timeline comes to a close in the near future.

And still doesn't in the slightest address when "this part" of time was purged down to the sacred timeline.  It could be tens of (human) generations ago - which is still easily within Loki's lifetime.


----------



## Imaculata

So, is it safe to assume Mobius is a good guy? And if/when Loki turns against the TVA, will Mobius join him?

Because much like Mobius has made Loki question his own power and role in the universe, perhaps Loki will do the same to Mobius?


----------



## hopeless

I think Mobius smells a rat and the best way to flush that ray out is to call them on their bs!
Ideally that isn't Lady Loki that should be the Enchantress and the people in charge being unaware of the difference as it doesn't concern them has been wrongfully blaming Loki which was why he was brought in NOT because of Endgame but because of their actions that allowed the Enchantress free rein?
And Mobius has enough suspicions to request Loki's assistance and its only now the real villain has noticed their mistake!
Well that's what I think after hearing from the writer that isn't likely as he doesn't strike me as the sort to actually give a damn about canon after mangling the infinity stones for no reason!


----------



## tomBitonti

One thing I’m finding amusing is how this seems to be a crisis on infinite earths in reverse.  In the DC television universe, the crisis was resolved by collapsing the plenitude into a single time time.  in the marvel cinematic universe, it seems that there will become many timelines out of one.
TomB


----------



## Maxperson

MarkB said:


> That's not quite how it was presented. The sacred timeline is indicated to be a fait accompli at this point, it's just that they don't yet know how it will end, because supposedly the Timekeepers are still working on that.



It's heavily implied that the other timelines aren't all pruned yet, though.  If there weren't other timelines and there was only the sacred timeline, the Timekeepers would not have anything to untangle.


MarkB said:


> None of the TVA activities we've been shown are about pruning away already-existing independent timelines. They're all about nipping newly-branching timelines in the bud.



That could very easily be because the show is focused on the Loki(Enchantress) giving them so much trouble.  There could be all sorts of TVA departments that we haven't been shown.


----------



## hopeless

I don't think they've been pruning those offshoots only altering certain ones to favour their preferred timeline and its slowly backfiring on them.
The way they have been handling infinity stones is a mistake that needs to play into their main plot.
The way the writer described them demonstrates his inability to recognise the mistake just because he wants to demonstrate his TVA is all powerful, what you do is not crap over the MCU but provide a REASON why that's the case and he hasn't regardless of some excuses I've been reading!
A little more care and attention to what's come before instead of Rian Johnson the MCU would work much better!


----------



## Imaculata

I think it is a bit early to critique the writers for their treatment of the MCU after only 2 episodes. The plot is still unfolding and it can still go in a lot of unexpected directions.


----------



## hopeless

Imaculata said:


> I think it is a bit early to critique the writers for their treatment of the MCU after only 2 episodes. The plot is still unfolding and it can still go in a lot of unexpected directions.



You're right, just wish I had confidence about that.


----------



## ehren37

Imaculata said:


> So, is it safe to assume Mobius is a good guy? And if/when Loki turns against the TVA, will Mobius join him?
> 
> Because much like Mobius has made Loki question his own power and role in the universe, perhaps Loki will do the same to Mobius?



My theory is that prior to the events of the show, Mobius was put upon his path by future Loki, to ensure that present Loki gains the necessary knowledge/skills to become future Loki, who would then be able to recruit past Mobius to the cause.  They didn't pick that specific name out of a hat. 

Also Wilson looks like he' in old age makeup for a reason. so I'm betting on flashbacks.


----------



## JEB

ehren37 said:


> They didn't pick that specific name out of a hat.



Actually, the name (and character) Mobius (full name Mobius M. Mobius) was from the original comics (with his likeness based on Marvel editor Mark Gruenwald).

That said, that doesn't mean the name doesn't have more significance in the MCU.


----------



## trappedslider




----------



## hopeless

So Ghostbusters 2016, the Charlie's Angels movie, The Heights, there's quite a few possibilities would Captain Marvel count?

Technically they ARE disasters and would the TVA wittingly send anyone to watch them?


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> And every image of a variant Loki they showed us still had Hiddleston's face.



It's called a joke.


----------



## Maxperson

hopeless said:


> So Ghostbusters 2016, the Charlie's Angels movie, The Heights, there's quite a few possibilities would Captain Marvel count?
> 
> Technically they ARE disasters and would the TVA wittingly send anyone to watch them?


----------



## Paul Farquhar

A couple of things (I've been away). The kid (another Loki?) in the first episode pointed to a stained glass window with a picture of the devil. That devil was not female and did not have tiny horns.

Also



Spoiler



If we assume Alt-Loki is actually Silvie the Enchantress, it wouldn't be unprecedented for the MCU version of the character to have a very different origin to the comic version. I would hypothesise that this version is Loki's daughter (Loki's kids do tend to crop up in Norse myth). Of course, that raises the question, which Loki? I see three options - a now deleted variant, our variant, or the Loki hiding behind the TVA curtain.


----------



## Mind of tempest

Maxperson said:


> View attachment 138611



Battlefield Earth is far worse than that.


----------



## Davies

Episode 3



Spoiler



Okay, Sylvie is clearly a composite of the Loki we know and the Enchantress, with the name (but not much else) of the young Enchantress who was in the Young Masters of Evil.

... wellll, that's an interesting change of perspective regarding the TVA's nature. We now know that they're lying to its people about one thing. What else are they lying about?

"Dread it. Run from it. Destiny still arrives."


----------



## Mind of tempest

Davies said:


> Episode 3
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, Sylvie is clearly a composite of the Loki we know and the Enchantress, with the name (but not much else) of the young Enchantress who was in the Young Masters of Evil.
> 
> ... wellll, that's an interesting change of perspective regarding the TVA's nature. We now know that they're lying to its people about one thing. What else are they lying about?
> 
> "Dread it. Run from it. Destiny still arrives."



I always find that line odd fate arrives like that, destiny is notoriously hard to meet.


----------



## pukunui

OK so that was different. I struggled to suspend my disbelief when it came to the apocalyptic elements, but I enjoyed the character development. It felt a wee bit like a filler episode, which I wouldn't have thought we'd get, given there are only six episodes in total.


----------



## Davies

Mind of tempest said:


> I always find that line odd fate arrives like that, destiny is notoriously hard to meet.



... outside of certain specific contexts, _those two words mean exactly the same thing._


----------



## trappedslider

pukunui said:


> but I enjoyed the character development. It felt a wee bit like a filler episode, which I wouldn't have thought we'd get, given there are only six episodes in total.



I felt the same, the reveal regarding staffing of the TVA was interesting....and brings up questions regarding Mobius and his like for jet skis.  Is it nothing, or is it something from before he worked for the TVA?


----------



## MarkB

Given the prologue and then Sylvie's later explanation of her powers, I do have to wonder whether this is all a dream sequence. Like, maybe when she grabbed him as a hostage in front of the elevator near the start, she dropped them into a shared vision so that she could find out what he knows, and everything after that has taken place in a frozen moment during that stand-off.


----------



## Stalker0

Some of the apocolypse scenes I agree were a bit weak. There were several moments where it literally felt like "ok keep walking until explosion, ok explosion, now walk in a different direction"....I didn't really feel the stakes.

The TVA reveal of course is the plot highlight, but the character interaction is interesting, how much is it just them manipulating each other versus actually forming a connection between like minded people.


----------



## MarkB

So, following from earlier speculation, these are most definitely not Variants of the same physical person. There was no point in time at which one of these Lokis was split off onto a different timeline and then developed into the other person.

At the absolute least, this was a split before birth - in one timeline a male Jotun child was abandoned, in another the child was female. More likely there is no genetic connection between them. They have different origins and different life stories.

In which case, in what sense are they both variant Lokis? Is there some constant factor throughout multiple timelines which says that, at some point, a modestly-superpowered mischievous being called Loki will appear, and some law of equivalence that makes them all, in some fashion, variants of each other rather than simply people with similar names and hobbies?


----------



## wicked cool

Not the greatest of episodes-lots of walking and the green screen felt dated especially during the run/walk scenes.

I heard a theory that this could possible be in the quantum realm (where ant man went). After this episode is that squashed?

At times it felt like the loki/enchantress knew his mother and they keep going back to his mother especially her death. Any chance that this being is his mother? We were told she kills other variants but shes not trying very hard to kill this Loki?


----------



## Stalker0

I did appreciate that this episode was not earth centric considering the scope they are going for.

Also it was interesting to see slyvies surprise that her magic didn’t work in the TVA…showcasing for all her scheming see still knows very little about what she is really dealing with


----------



## MarkB

Stalker0 said:


> I did appreciate that this episode was not earth centric considering the scope they are going for.
> 
> Also it was interesting to see slyvies surprise that her magic didn’t work in the TVA…showcasing for all her scheming see still knows very little about what she is really dealing with



Oh, that's a good point - so my earlier speculation about her having put the mental whammy on Loki during their encounter there was wrong, at least timing wise.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

A 2077 disaster? This a dig at Cyberpunk?

I kept waiting for Loki to say "when I say run, run!"


----------



## Mind of tempest

Paul Farquhar said:


> A 2077 disaster? This a dig at Cyberpunk?
> 
> I kept waiting for Loki to say "when I say run, run!"



2077 is the years the bomb went of in fallout maybe it is just a bad year?


----------



## hopeless

I wonder what if they reveal Loki and Sylvie are actually twins separated at birth?
No that would be an interesting reveal.
Curious to see where they go with this, hope its good.


----------



## pukunui

wicked cool said:


> Not the greatest of episodes-lots of walking and the green screen felt dated especially during the run/walk scenes.



Yeah, the exploding planet at the end was just ... bad. And for an apocalypse involving a planet crashing into a moon, it was very tame. Sylvie mentioned gravity quakes, but it didn't seem like there were any. Just all those purple meteors.



wicked cool said:


> I heard a theory that this could possible be in the quantum realm (where ant man went). After this episode is that squashed?



I think it's still entirely possible the TVA is based in the quantum realm. The time doors could grow/shrink people without their knowing.



wicked cool said:


> At times it felt like the loki/enchantress knew his mother and they keep going back to his mother especially her death. Any chance that this being is his mother?



I don't think so. If she was a variant Frigga, I don't think she'd get so upset about being called Loki. Maybe she was just curious to know about this Loki's mother because she never really got to know hers.


----------



## MarkB

pukunui said:


> Yeah, the exploding planet at the end was just ... bad. And for an apocalypse involving a planet crashing into a moon, it was very tame. Sylvie mentioned gravity quakes, but it didn't seem like there were any. Just all those purple meteors.



The whole thing just hanging casually overhead at the end got really ridiculous. I'm not usually too fussy about physics in a setting like this, but a colliding planet shouldn't feel so... leisurely.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Eh, this was all filmed during all the covid stuff, so I am giving them a pass on the weak planetary apocalypse, mainly because the characters, and their interactions, are all very good. Every Marvel show so far has had great casting and interactions between characters.


----------



## pukunui

MarkB said:


> The whole thing just hanging casually overhead at the end got really ridiculous. I'm not usually too fussy about physics in a setting like this, but a colliding planet shouldn't feel so... leisurely.



Exactly!



Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Eh, this was all filmed during all the covid stuff, so I am giving them a pass on the weak planetary apocalypse, mainly because the characters, and their interactions, are all very good. Every Marvel show so far has had great casting and interactions between characters.



Yes, the character interactions were fantastic. The setting not so much. I hope they can get back to the TVA quickly next episode.


----------



## Zaukrie

Is Loki ever going to seem smart? That's good whole spiel..... Anyway, I liked that episode for the most part.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Nice episode of Doctor Who this week! Er, wait, was that Loki?


----------



## Rabulias

It would be interesting to see the variant Asgard that Sylvie hails from. Would there have been counterparts for Odin, Frigga, Thor, Sif, Laufey, etc.? With only six episodes (only 3 more left!), I fear the alternate/parallel universe fanboy in me needs to tamp down my hopes...


----------



## Tonguez

pukunui said:


> OK so that was different. I struggled to suspend my disbelief when it came to the apocalyptic elements, but I enjoyed the character development. It felt a wee bit like a filler episode, which I wouldn't have thought we'd get, given there are only six episodes in total.




It may just have been the preponderance of English accents, but I thought the special effects were a great way to invoke Doctor Who, and this weeks episode was very very reminiscent of a Who episode - Michele Gomez did a much better run as the deuteragonist however 

I was right about Sylviei, nice reveal that the TVA are all variants too, and good LGBT nod


----------



## pukunui

Tonguez said:


> It may just have been the preponderance of English accents, but I thought the special effects were a great way to invoke Doctor Who, and this weeks episode was very very reminiscent of a Who episode - Michele Gomez did a much better run as the deuteragonist however



I’ve seen quite a few comments to that effect. Not having ever watched Doctor Who myself, I’ll have to take your word for it.

For some reason, the exploding planet scene keeps putting me in mind of the MST3k intro. I can’t really explain why at this point.


----------



## Dire Bare

I feel like I'm watching a different show than many of you folks . . . so far, I've enjoyed all three episodes immensely.


----------



## Stalker0

Tonguez said:


> good LGBT nod



Yeah I appreciate the subtlety of it, to Loki its no big deal.....because its no big deal.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Dire Bare said:


> I feel like I'm watching a different show than many of you folks . . . so far, I've enjoyed all three episodes immensely.



Has anyone not enjoyed it? I love it!


----------



## pukunui

FitzTheRuke said:


> Has anyone not enjoyed it? I love it!



I enjoyed it. Just not as much as I enjoyed the first two episodes.


----------



## Older Beholder

pukunui said:


> I enjoyed it. Just not as much as I enjoyed the first two episodes.



I’ve loved it all so far, but I did miss the Mobius/Loki dynamic from the first two eps.

It felt like a bottle episode, interesting character studies and some great dialogue between Loki and Sylvie.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Dire Bare said:


> I feel like I'm watching a different show than many of you folks . . . so far, I've enjoyed all three episodes immensely.



What do you mean? I love Doctor Who!


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Zaukrie said:


> Is Loki ever going to seem smart? That's good whole spiel..... Anyway, I liked that episode for the most part.



He is the god of mischief, not the god of being really smart. He is smart, but that intelligence is misdirected, as Silvie calls out. There is plenty of mischief in this episode.


----------



## Tonguez

Paul Farquhar said:


> He is the god of mischief, not the god of being really smart. He is smart, but that intelligence is misdirected, as Silvie calls out. There is plenty of mischief in this episode.



It may have just been me projecting, but the interactions between Sylvie and Loki sounded to me like hints that Loki was unconciously choosing to do the right thing despite his facade of being uncaring

in the Mining Shelter Sylvie accuses Loki of only saving her only cause he needs her
when they decide to take power from the Ark Sylvie says something like “you realise where taken a whole civilisations only chance”
and when they get to the panicking townsfolk Loki comments that the Ark is leaving the poor to die

of course thats when the episode ends, which makes me think that next week, Loki gets to be heroic and save Lamentis - which of course creates chaos and a new variant timeline


----------



## Dire Bare

Tonguez said:


> It may have just been me projecting, but the interactions between Sylvie and Loki sounded to me like hints that Loki was unconciously choosing to do the right thing despite his facade of being uncaring
> 
> in the Mining Shelter Sylvie accuses Loki of only saving her only cause he needs her
> when they decide to take power from the Ark Sylvie says something like “you realise where taken a whole civilisations only chance”
> and when they get to the panicking townsfolk Loki comments that the Ark is leaving the poor to die
> 
> of course thats when the episode ends, which makes me think that next week, Loki gets to be heroic and save Lamentis - which of course creates chaos and a new variant timeline



Loki has been villain and hero . . . his character has always been best when playing the _not-really-reluctant _hero. At least, in the MCU. They've done a good job, IMO, of giving Loki a character arc and making his villainous turns sympathetic. His evil actions in the first two Thor movies and in the first Avengers film are based in pain over his adopted childhood and need to be loved. In the TV show, he begins to realize that his anger and villainy was misplaced, that his adopted parents and brother always loved him, despite his choices.


----------



## Davies

Zaukrie said:


> Is Loki ever going to seem smart? That's good whole spiel..... Anyway, I liked that episode for the most part.



If his current situation plays out the way I expect it to, he'll _seem_ smart ... but whether he actually planned what happens will be open to question.


----------



## hopeless

I wonder what else did he take with him from the TVA?
Maybe retrieved the Space Stone and because it should be the same timeline and universe it came from it should work fine?


----------



## MarkB

Davies said:


> If his current situation plays out the way I expect it to, he'll _seem_ smart ... but whether he actually planned what happens will be open to question.



I think his plan was that making some people survive would create enough of a variance to alert the TVA.

I think what's likely to happen instead now that that's failed is that Mobius will turn up anyway, having been checking each likely apocalypse in turn.


----------



## hopeless

MarkB said:


> I think his plan was that making some people survive would create enough of a variance to alert the TVA.
> 
> I think what's likely to happen instead now that that's failed is that Mobius will turn up anyway, having been checking each likely apocalypse in turn.



Now imagining what if they got Chris Hemsworth to make a cameo in the series where he turns up to rescue them revealing Loki DID get back to his own timeline and asked Thor to pop down here to give them a lift to safety.

A Bill & Ted reference there!


----------



## Paul Farquhar

MarkB said:


> I think his plan was that making some people survive would create enough of a variance to alert the TVA.
> 
> I think what's likely to happen instead now that that's failed is that Mobius will turn up anyway, having been checking each likely apocalypse in turn.



I'm pretty sure that if he reverses the polarity of the neutron flow he will be able to wind time back far enough to launch the ark before it is destroyed.


----------



## Davies

MarkB said:


> I think his plan was that making some people survive would create enough of a variance to alert the TVA.
> 
> I think what's likely to happen instead now that that's failed is that Mobius will turn up anyway, having been checking each likely apocalypse in turn.



The latter is also my expectation.


----------



## Staffan

MarkB said:


> So, following from earlier speculation, these are most definitely not Variants of the same physical person. There was no point in time at which one of these Lokis was split off onto a different timeline and then developed into the other person.
> 
> At the absolute least, this was a split before birth - in one timeline a male Jotun child was abandoned, in another the child was female. More likely there is no genetic connection between them. They have different origins and different life stories.



Sylvie said she's not Loki anymore. She clearly recognizes the name, and vehemently rejects it. I think she's trans, or the Asgardian/Jotun equivalent.


----------



## pukunui

So what do people make of the fact that Sylvie says she "had to pull a memory from hundreds of years prior" when talking about how she interrogated the TVA hunter? The scene at the start of the episode, where they're in the club drinking margaritas, seemed fairly contemporary to our time ... e.g. the song that's playing (which, incidentally, is incredibly appropriate lyrically) came out in 2019.

So what did Sylvie mean by "hundreds of years prior"? Does that mean the TVA is based in the future? Is _she_ from the future?


----------



## MarkB

pukunui said:


> So what do people make of the fact that Sylvie says she "had to pull a memory from hundreds of years prior" when talking about how she interrogated the TVA hunter? The scene at the start of the episode, where they're in the club drinking margaritas, seemed fairly contemporary to our time ... e.g. the song that's playing (which, incidentally, is incredibly appropriate lyrically) came out in 2019.
> 
> So what did Sylvie mean by "hundreds of years prior"? Does that mean the TVA is based in the future? Is _she_ from the future?



I'm pretty sure they're isolated from both normal time and space. "Hundreds of years ago" only has meaning in terms of that particular TVA agent's personal timeline - it's the amount of time she's been working for them.


----------



## Staffan

pukunui said:


> So what do people make of the fact that Sylvie says she "had to pull a memory from hundreds of years prior" when talking about how she interrogated the TVA hunter? The scene at the start of the episode, where they're in the club drinking margaritas, seemed fairly contemporary to our time ... e.g. the song that's playing (which, incidentally, is incredibly appropriate lyrically) came out in 2019.
> 
> So what did Sylvie mean by "hundreds of years prior"? Does that mean the TVA is based in the future? Is _she_ from the future?



I figured it meant hundreds of years prior for that particular hunter. Each person has their own timeline, and for most people it runs right along the proper one. But the people in the TVA exist outside the normal flow of time, so clearly this person originated in something close to the present day and then did something that turned them into a variant, was abducted/recruited by the TVA, and has spent a couple of centuries on the job.


----------



## Zaukrie

MarkB said:


> I'm pretty sure they're isolated from both normal time and space. "Hundreds of years ago" only has meaning in terms of that particular TVA agent's personal timeline - it's the amount of time she's been working for them.



Concur. So, TVA agents are immortal pretty much. And they have weapons that can disintegrate GODS. And no one has heard of them?


----------



## MarkB

Zaukrie said:


> Concur. So, TVA agents are immortal pretty much. And they have weapons that can disintegrate GODS. And no one has heard of them?



They generally only appear in divergent timelines, and they burn those when they leave.


----------



## pukunui

OK but if she's from the "present day" more or less, and the TVA exists _outside_ time, then what does "hundreds of years ago" actually mean? How can she have been working for the TVA for several centuries if time "works differently" in the TVA?


----------



## Tonguez

Staffan said:


> I figured it meant hundreds of years prior for that particular hunter. Each person has their own timeline,




But Sylvie is at that point existing in the same timeline as the hunter - so from her perspective its still hundred of years ago, which implies their shared timeline is in the future. Also Sylvie having spent years on the plan would suggest that there is a shareable time reference.

Based on last weeks dialogue about Duplicate castings being identical at the molecular level, I wonder if Sylvie is in reality the mindwiped molecular duplicate of Loki-A from a future in which Loki died - She's Sylvie Lokisdotter


----------



## MarkB

pukunui said:


> OK but if she's from the "present day" more or less, and the TVA exists _outside_ time, then what does "hundreds of years ago" actually mean? How can she have been working for the TVA for several centuries if time "works differently" in the TVA?



"Differently" isn't the same as "not at all". That's the amount of time she personally has subjectively experienced since she joined the TVA. It may not be the same amount of time that the squadmate working next to her has experienced since they met. It may not even have any valid meaning beyond her own perception.


----------



## MarkB

Tonguez said:


> But Sylvie is at that point existing in the same timeline as the hunter - so from her perspective its still hundred of years ago, which implies there shared timeline is in the future. Also Sylvie having spent years on the plan would suggest that there is a shareable time reference.



Why does it suggest that? She's been working on her plan for years from her own personal perspective, but those years have been spent hanging out in apocalypses at various points throughout space and time, in between going to other random points in space and time in order to create divergent timelines so that she can ambush TVA teams. There's no shared objective timeline there.


----------



## Zaukrie

MarkB said:


> They generally only appear in divergent timelines, and they burn those when they leave.



It's hard to believe that is enough to keep them secret from the many almost unstoppable forces in the MCU, but I'll try to get there....


----------



## pukunui

Tonguez said:


> Based on last weeks dialogue about Duplicate castings being identical at the molecular level, I wonder if Sylvie is in reality the mindwiped molecular duplicate of Loki-A from a future in which Loki died - She's Sylvie Lokisdotter



Someone spotted a reference to her as "Sylvie Laufeysdottir" on a TVA sheet somewhere. The image is in the thread about the replica crowns.

EDIT:


BRayne said:


> There's this little tidbit in the episode itself apparently. It seems she _is _Loki in that she's the child of Laufey but is using a different name. One which may be more of an easter egg than anything else.


----------



## Staffan

Tonguez said:


> But Sylvie is at that point existing in the same timeline as the hunter - so from her perspective its still hundred of years ago, which implies their shared timeline is in the future. Also Sylvie having spent years on the plan would suggest that there is a shareable time reference.
> 
> Based on last weeks dialogue about Duplicate castings being identical at the molecular level, I wonder if Sylvie is in reality the mindwiped molecular duplicate of Loki-A from a future in which Loki died - She's Sylvie Lokisdotter



The way I understood it is that in this particular case we have two separate timelines to keep track of: the Hunter C-20's, and Sylvie's.

The Hunter's timeline goes like this:
1. Lives a life on what seems like modern-day Earth.
2. Gets involved in something timey-wimey and is labeled a Variant.
3. TVA "recruits" her.
4. TVA does something to her memory and then she spends a few hundred years doing TVA stuff.
5. When investigating the RenFaire incident in the 1980s, she gets kidnapped by Sylvie and taken to the Roxxcart mall in the 2050s.
6. Sylvie puts the mental whammy on her.

Sylvie's timeline instead goes like this:
1. Various undisclosed stuff.
2. Attacks TVA agents investigating a thing in the 80s, and kidnaps one of them.
3. Takes the kidnapped TVA agent to the 2050s.
4. Puts the mental whammy on the TVA agent in order to learn stuff about the time keepers.
5. The stuff we just saw in episode 3.

So C-20's 5-6 co-incide with Sylvie's 2-4, but the "hundreds of years" Sylvie refers to are C-20's step 4.

On a related note, I wonder if TVA agents actually become unaging or if the TVA works the same as Death's Domain in Discworld: time doesn't pass there so you don't age while inside, but if you go back to the "real" world you still age in normal time.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

pukunui said:


> OK but if she's from the "present day" more or less, and the TVA exists _outside_ time, then what does "hundreds of years ago" actually mean? How can she have been working for the TVA for several centuries if time "works differently" in the TVA?



She has hundreds of years worth of accumulated memories.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

pukunui said:


> Someone spotted a reference to her as "Sylvie Laufeysdottir" on a TVA sheet somewhere. The image is in the thread about the replica crowns.
> 
> EDIT:



The use of "dottir" implies the child was born female, rather than just chose a female form, so either she is a sister or the "variance" occurred before conception. One thing they may be hinting at is although we know the identity of the father, we do not know the identity of the birth mother.


----------



## hopeless

She's aware where that TVA Agent came from.
That's what that sounds like, she used an actual memory and superimposed herself over whoever the TVA Agent was with at that bar or restaurant.
Curious she doesn't know about the power dampening effect within the TVA.
That suggests when the TVA came for her she turned the tables and has been on the run outside the TVA pulling her shenanigans.
I wonder how told her how to avoid detection because that doesn't sound accidental?


----------



## Staffan

Paul Farquhar said:


> The use of "dottir" implies the child was born female, rather than just chose a female form, so either she is a sister or the "variance" occurred before conception. One thing they may be hinting at is although we know the identity of the father, we do not know the identity of the birth mother.



In Iceland, which is the only Nordic country that still routinely use patronymic surnames, a person who transitions will have their surname changed. So under Icelandic law, Laufeysson would have become Laufeysdottír. Recently they also allowed -bur as a suffix, meaning "child", for non-binary people, so should we encounter a third Loki who's more actively fluid, they might go by Laufeysbur.

And it seems pretty clear that the TVA uses the person's current name rather than their "original" name, whatever that is. After all, "our" Loki is Laufeysson, but he only learned of his true origins about 2 years ago.


----------



## Staffan

Another thing I thought of, that I might be reading too much into: the Time Variance _Authority_. I'm not a native English-speaker, but to me the word Authority implies some form of lawfulness or legality, of power given instead of taken. You're doing a thing because someone *authorized* you to do it, not just because you think it should be done.

So: *whose* authority? I guess the easy answer is "The Time Keepers", but I'm not particularly happy with that answer.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Staffan said:


> And it seems pretty clear that the TVA uses the person's current name rather than their "original" name,



I would say say Loki considers his name to be Odinson, irrespective of biological parentage. He is irritated by "Laufeysson" - using that looks like TVA pedantry rather than "current name".


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Staffan said:


> Another thing I thought of, that I might be reading too much into: the Time Variance _Authority_. I'm not a native English-speaker, but to me the word Authority implies some form of lawfulness or legality, of power given instead of taken. You're doing a thing because someone *authorized* you to do it, not just because you think it should be done.
> 
> So: *whose* authority? I guess the easy answer is "The Time Keepers", but I'm not particularly happy with that answer.



You shouldn't be happy with that answer. The TVA are almost certainly in the wrong, even if they don't know it. Something calling itself "the Authority" does not mean that they deserve that power.


----------



## Campbell

I'm guessing the authority only really extends from the Time Keepers themselves, especially if they are who I think they are.


----------



## trappedslider

Campbell said:


> I'm guessing the authority only really extends from the Time Keepers themselves, especially if they are who I think they are.





Spoiler



The Watchers?


----------



## Campbell

trappedslider said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> The Watchers?






Spoiler












						Council of Kangs (Multiverse)
					

The Council of Kangs was a group led by Prime Kang that was tricked by Immortus into eliminating all divergent Kangs in the Multiverse, as that would ensure Prime Kang's destiny would end with him becoming Immortus. The Council of Kangs was eventually recreated as part of the Kang Collective...




					marvel.fandom.com


----------



## Tonguez

Staffan said:


> Another thing I thought of, that I might be reading too much into: the Time Variance _Authority_. I'm not a native English-speaker, but to me the word Authority implies some form of lawfulness or legality, of power given instead of taken. You're doing a thing because someone *authorized* you to do it, not just because you think it should be done.
> 
> So: *whose* authority? I guess the easy answer is "The Time Keepers", but I'm not particularly happy with that answer.



Generally, in my country at least, labelling themselves Authority implies that they are _the organisation_ with the power to Authorize others to do things, In the real world that would be via the setting of bylaws and issuing of permits/licences. So the TVA would exercise authority in its own right, and appears to have its own enforcement teams for those who stray outside what they permit


----------



## trappedslider

Campbell said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Council of Kangs (Multiverse)
> 
> 
> The Council of Kangs was a group led by Prime Kang that was tricked by Immortus into eliminating all divergent Kangs in the Multiverse, as that would ensure Prime Kang's destiny would end with him becoming Immortus. The Council of Kangs was eventually recreated as part of the Kang Collective...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> marvel.fandom.com



oh okay my only knowledge of 



Spoiler



kang is a short story in The Ultimate Super-Villains: New Stories Featuring Marvel's Deadliest Villains from 1996, in which he used a nuke to wipe out NYC and all of the heroes and took over the world, only to travel back in time to stop himself from doing it


----------



## Zaukrie

Just want to say thanks for the spoiler tags!


----------



## Tonguez

trappedslider said:


> oh okay my only knowledge of
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> kang is a short story in The Ultimate Super-Villains: New Stories Featuring Marvel's Deadliest Villains from 1996, in which he used a nuke to wipe out NYC and all of the heroes and took over the world, only to travel back in time to stop himself from doing it



Yeah I only know Kang from the Avengers Assemble cartoon and am enjoying not knowing too much about him. The Spoiler tags are welcomed


----------



## trappedslider




----------



## Blue

MarkB said:


> In which case, in what sense are they both variant Lokis? Is there some constant factor throughout multiple timelines which says that, at some point, a modestly-superpowered mischievous being called Loki will appear, and some law of equivalence that makes them all, in some fashion, variants of each other rather than simply people with similar names and hobbies?



Perhaps it's a mantle of the Trickster God, be it worn by Coyote, Eris, Loki, or Bugs Bunny.


----------



## RangerWickett

I feel like Tom Hiddleston is very much enjoying playing Doctor Who.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Just a few more hours and we get to see who rides in to the rescue at the proverbial last minute. I love the show, but I am so tired of decades of last-second rescues and last-second bomb disarmings. I think the next time I see a show have a bomb stopped with just a couple of seconds left, I will scream.   lol


----------



## trappedslider

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Just a few more hours and we get to see who rides in to the rescue at the proverbial last minute. I love the show, but I am so tired of decades of last-second rescues and last-second bomb disarmings. I think the next time I see a show have a bomb stopped with just a couple of seconds left, I will scream.   lol



tik tok please


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

trappedslider said:


> tik tok please




The only thing in my house that goes tik tok is the clock, unless that video by Keshia is playing on Vevo.   lol


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Okay, first end-credits scene of the series, so make sure you stick around til the end of the episode!


----------



## Argyle King

I'm starting to feel as though the show is less Loki and more Rick Sanchez


----------



## Mind of tempest

okay so stuff got super crazy here.


----------



## Davies

Episode 4



Spoiler



Okay ... that presents two points of interest. Ravonna has risen in the ranks _despite_ the fact that she's responsible for a major failure of the TVA. (_Because?_) And the Time Keepers appear to be real.

Well! Wasn't expecting to see her again!

Know what would have been a nice callback? "Trust me." "I'll trust your rage."

Appearances, of course, can be deceiving.


----------



## trappedslider




----------



## pukunui

trappedslider said:


>



My sentiments exactly!


----------



## Mind of tempest

trappedslider said:


>



everything we know is not the case but we do not know what is anymore.


----------



## pukunui

I just watched it again and enjoyed it all the more the second time.

For funsies, I went back and watched the trailer. Still a few bits and pieces we haven't seen yet, like "President" Loki. 

One thing I noticed: the trailer contains a snippet of what appears to be the scene from this episode where the time doors open behind Loki and Sylvie on Lamentis, except there's just one door and just Loki ... but there are also could be two more doors opening to either side. I wanted to take a screenshot, but I see that Disney+ has made that impossible now. It just comes up black.

It could be a scene we haven't seen yet, or a version of that scene that they decided not to use. Or maybe they edited it to be tricksy.


----------



## MarkB

Did anyone else have to turn on the subtitles for the Timekeepers scene?


----------



## Mind of tempest

MarkB said:


> Did anyone else have to turn on the subtitles for the Timekeepers scene?



yeah


----------



## trappedslider

MarkB said:


> Did anyone else have to turn on the subtitles for the Timekeepers scene?



I always have subtitles on


----------



## Maxperson

Stalker0 said:


> Some of the apocolypse scenes I agree were a bit weak. There were several moments where it literally felt like "ok keep walking until explosion, ok explosion, now walk in a different direction"....I didn't really feel the stakes.
> 
> The TVA reveal of course is the plot highlight, but the character interaction is interesting, how much is it just them manipulating each other versus actually forming a connection between like minded people.



My issue was that the meteorites were impacting all over the place, yet not one of them hit either the train track or the ark.  My second issue was that at one point Loki catches a very large chunk of falling building with his magic and easily propels back up in the other direction.  If he could do that, why didn't he just lift the two of them up and over the wall to the ship?


----------



## hopeless

Their budget most probably...


----------



## Maxperson

MarkB said:


> So, following from earlier speculation, these are most definitely not Variants of the same physical person. There was no point in time at which one of these Lokis was split off onto a different timeline and then developed into the other person.
> 
> At the absolute least, this was a split before birth - in one timeline a male Jotun child was abandoned, in another the child was female. More likely there is no genetic connection between them. They have different origins and different life stories.
> 
> In which case, in what sense are they both variant Lokis? Is there some constant factor throughout multiple timelines which says that, at some point, a modestly-superpowered mischievous being called Loki will appear, and some law of equivalence that makes them all, in some fashion, variants of each other rather than simply people with similar names and hobbies?



Splits happen with every decision point or every random chance point.  One of you might decide to have Wheaties  in the morning and another Life cereal.  With Loki, conception would be a random chance point, but still reflect a being with the genetic make-up of the same two parents, so one could be born genetically female and still be a capricious trickster, while another is genetically male.


----------



## Maxperson

MarkB said:


> The whole thing just hanging casually overhead at the end got really ridiculous. I'm not usually too fussy about physics in a setting like this, but a colliding planet shouldn't feel so... leisurely.



I also doubt that the planet would break up like that prior to impact.


----------



## hopeless

Please note DO NOT READ if you want to watch the latest episode!!!


Spoiler



Did they seriously kidnap a child from fricken Asgard and got AWAY with it?


----------



## Maxperson

Dire Bare said:


> I feel like I'm watching a different show than many of you folks . . . so far, I've enjoyed all three episodes immensely.



Oh, I really liked it.  It just had some issues.


----------



## Maxperson

Paul Farquhar said:


> I'm pretty sure that if he reverses the polarity of the neutron flow he will be able to wind time back far enough to launch the ark before it is destroyed.



Maybe he'll use quantum magic, since "quantum" can accomplish anything!


----------



## Maxperson

Paul Farquhar said:


> The use of "dottir" implies the child was born female, rather than just chose a female form, so either she is a sister or the "variance" occurred before conception. One thing they may be hinting at is although we know the identity of the father, we do not know the identity of the birth mother.



Not necessarily.  The divergence in gender occurred before conception, but not necessarily the variance.  That portion of the timeline(s) could have accounted that divergence as normal(inside the plan of the Time Keepers), and later she did something else to become labelled as a variant.


----------



## MarkB

Maxperson said:


> I also doubt that the planet would break up like that prior to impact.



Oh, it absolutely would. Tidal forces would rip it to pieces. But that should be happening to the moon Loki and Sylvie are standing on, to an even greater extent. Like they said (but didn't show), gravity quakes.


----------



## Davies

trappedslider said:


> I always have subtitles on



Likewise.


----------



## trappedslider

i swear some times nerds are the worse fans 



Spoiler



After thinking about it, I think R does remember the nexus point that sylvie created, but chose to be a jerk and twist the knife by saying no


----------



## MarkB

hopeless said:


> Please note DO NOT READ if you want to watch the latest episode!!!
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Did they seriously kidnap a child from fricken Asgard and got AWAY with it?





Spoiler



Why is this surprising at this point? They were in and out in less than a minute, and then they deleted the reality in which it happened behind them. What's not to get away with?


----------



## hopeless

Spoiler



Regardless of how powerful the TVA are projected to be unless Sylvie is NOT the adopted daughter of Odin and Frigga there is absolutely no way the TVA could get away with that!

Sorry they didn't think that through properly.


----------



## Davies

hopeless said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Regardless of how powerful the TVA are projected to be unless Sylvie is NOT the adopted daughter of Odin and Frigga there is absolutely no way the TVA could get away with that!





Spoiler



In the long run, no, they did not.


----------



## MarkB

hopeless said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Regardless of how powerful the TVA are projected to be unless Sylvie is NOT the adopted daughter of Odin and Frigga there is absolutely no way the TVA could get away with that!
> 
> Sorry they didn't think that through properly.





Spoiler



What would prevent them? We've seen Asgard a lot, and its security isn't exactly spectacular. If a talking raccoon can get past it, why can't the TVA?


----------



## hopeless

Spoiler



The TVA managing to blindside the Asgardians within their own home?!
We're talking about the people who were responsible for sealing away the reality stone and you think someone time travelling would be able to bypass defences that would only eventually fail after Odin was incapacitated or dead?

Did they wipe the entire universe they acquired Sylvie from because that's the only way to avoid being discovered!

Completely mind wipe everyone on Asgard that knows about her is basically what that would have to achieve if its just pruning a branch.

So does that charge also erase any evidence of their presence and use of their tech in that location?

Sorry, but bloody hell the ramifications of this are far more serious than you might realise!


----------



## MarkB

hopeless said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> The TVA managing to blindside the Asgardians within their own home?!
> We're talking about the people who were responsible for sealing away the reality stone and you think someone time travelling would be able to bypass defences that would only eventually fail after Odin was incapacitated or dead?
> 
> Did they wipe the entire universe they acquired Sylvie from because that's the only way to avoid being discovered!
> 
> Completely mind wipe everyone on Asgard that knows about her is basically what that would have to achieve if its just pruning a branch.
> 
> So does that charge also erase any evidence of their presence and use of their tech in that location?
> 
> Sorry, but bloody hell the ramifications of this are far more serious than you might realise!





Spoiler



It's like you haven't even been watching the show.

Yes, they wiped out that whole reality. That's what the timeline reset charges do, it's the entire basis of the show. They prune away any timelines that diverge from their chosen reality.


----------



## hopeless

Spoiler



Prune the branch not the entire timeline.
It would be one thing to modify the timeline, but that ignores far too much to pass that readily.


----------



## Morrus

It’s the spoiler thread. You don’t need to put every post behind a spoiler box, folks.


----------



## MarkB

hopeless said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Prune the branch not the entire timeline.
> It would be one thing to modify the timeline, but that ignores far too much to pass that readily.





Spoiler



The branch is the entire timeline. What else did you think it was?

The TVA only enter reality within branching timelines. Once there, they remove whatever caused it to branch, and reset it back to baseline. Nobody ever knows they were there, because within the main timeline they never were. Odin and Freya never know their little girl was taken away, because they now exist in a timeline where they adopted a little boy, and he's still there, safe and sound.


----------



## MarkB

Morrus said:


> It’s the spoiler thread. You don’t need to put every post behind a spoiler box, folks.



I prefer to be a little circumspect on the first day a new episode comes out, at least until the evening when people have caught up with it. Others seem to have similar sensibilities.


----------



## Rabulias

hopeless said:


> We're talking about the people who were responsible for sealing away the reality stone and you think someone *time travelling* would be able to bypass defences that would only eventually fail after Odin was incapacitated or dead?



As pointed out, Rocket and sad Thor time travelled into Asgard while Odin was alive and well. I find it likely that time travel (the quantum realm, which folks here theorize the TVA utilizes as well...) might be one of the best ways to penetrate Asgard's defenses.

Recall in the first Thor film, Loki was able to tell the frost giants a way to get into Asgard, and Loki knew a secret way to escape Asgard in _Thor: The Dark World_. True, Odin was in the Odinsleep during the first one, but it seems that Asgard may be a bit more porous than believed...

EDIT: On a tangent, the Asgardians really did not do a very good job securing the reality stone, did they? And they had two opportunities!


----------



## Morrus

I couldn't make out anything the Timekeepers said.

So are they robots in the comics? Or is that a change for the show? They seemed quite easy to dispatch.

Does everybody who gets pruned get teleported? Does that mean Mobius is still alive somewhere?

2 episodes left. And now we have Richard E Grant in Loki's comic-book costume!


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

And for something a bit ....... different:


----------



## Mind of tempest

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> And for something a bit ....... different:



I am parshal to shorts.


----------



## Davies

Morrus said:


> I couldn't make out anything the Timekeepers said.
> 
> So are they robots in the comics? Or is that a change for the show?



Yes to the latter, they're biological entities -- albeit created ones -- in the comics. See here for details.


Morrus said:


> Does everybody who gets pruned get teleported? Does that mean Mobius is still alive somewhere?



This has been my guess, though I'll admit that until we saw Loki again it was just wishful thinking.


----------



## MarkB

Morrus said:


> I couldn't make out anything the Timekeepers said.



Yeah, I had to restart the scene with subtitles.


Morrus said:


> Does everybody who gets pruned get teleported? Does that mean Mobius is still alive somewhere?



It also means there may be a cart full of infinity stones out there.


----------



## tomBitonti

MarkB said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> The branch is the entire timeline. What else did you think it was?
> 
> The TVA only enter reality within branching timelines. Once there, they remove whatever caused it to branch, and reset it back to baseline. Nobody ever knows they were there, because within the main timeline they never were. Odin and Freya never know their little girl was taken away, because they now exist in a timeline where they adopted a little boy, and he's still there, safe and sound.



I was thinking that pruning was limited in extent — to the region so far affected by the deviant.  Which ought to spread at the speed of light, although I can see the comic book effect only counting large effects and being slower.

It Seems the amount of time which is pruned before there is a more severe event is small .. just a few minutes.  I don’t see how that could reach back to Sylvie’s conception.

TomB


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

tomBitonti said:


> I was thinking that pruning was limited in extent — to the region so far affected by the deviant.  Which ought to spread at the speed of light, although I can see the comic book effect only counting large effects and being slower.
> 
> It Seems the amount of time which is pruned before there is a more severe event is small .. just a few minutes.  I don’t see how that could reach back to Sylvie’s conception.
> 
> TomB




I think her timeline purge was more serious because various spoiler articles are saying she was re-enacting the battle between the Valkyrie and Hela, as if the Valkyrie won, instead of being destroyed by Hela. And that would be a major deviation from the "Sacred Timeline" and for some reason it took them many years to get there and prune that entire branch. I am betting them taking young Sylvie was just collateral damage and she was meant to become one of their mind-wiped TVA employees after she grew up. This makes me wonder if they actually let variant timelines grow and mature, until there is someone there that they think fits into the TVA. That is when they swoop in and kidnap that person and then wipe their timeline/universe out, making them an orphan in more than one way.


----------



## Zaukrie

Great episode.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I think her timeline purge was more serious because various spoiler articles are saying she was re-enacting the battle between the Valkyrie and Hela, as if the Valkyrie won, instead of being destroyed by Hela. And that would be a major deviation from the "Sacred Timeline" and for some reason it took them many years to get there and prune that entire branch. I am betting them taking young Sylvie was just collateral damage and she was meant to become one of their mind-wiped TVA employees after she grew up. This makes me wonder if they actually let variant timelines grow and mature, until there is someone there that they think fits into the TVA. That is when they swoop in and kidnap that person and then wipe their timeline/universe out, making them an orphan in more than one way.



Maybe Sylvie was born to Hela? She was cagey about her mother. Maybe her existence somehow tipped the balance so that Hela lost. This didn't redline on TVA computers until the battle, which was shortly before Sylvie was removed and the timeline pruned.

If Hela died maybe Sylvie has the power of Hela as well as Loki?


----------



## hopeless

I need to stop posting here.
Every time I do I just put my foot in deeper and its quite clear I'm finding the series deeply objectionable and ultimately its just not to my interest and really doesn't need to be brought up here where others just want to enjoy the series and not think too much about it!
Apologies.


----------



## Nikosandros

What happened to hunter B-15? Was she stabbed to death by two guards? I think that Ravonna picked up the weapon from her before facing Sylvie, but I'm not sure.


----------



## Tonguez

Nikosandros said:


> What happened to hunter B-15? Was she stabbed to death by two guards? I think that Ravonna picked up the weapon from her before facing Sylvie, but I'm not sure.



Knocked out at this stage, so potentially returning for another episode


----------



## wicked cool

I want to love this show but in reality for me its a 6/10 so far (it keeps teasing but not really delivering)

put me down in the category of not being able to undertand what the timekeepers said.

Why is Loki so weak? with our without the collar there was no difference? (hand to hand combat average/slightly better with daggers, hes not good at convincing people although at 1 point he led an army). What happened to his shapeshifting ability etc?


----------



## Wolfram stout

Paul Farquhar said:


> Maybe Sylvie was born to Hela? She was cagey about her mother. Maybe her existence somehow tipped the balance so that Hela lost. This didn't redline on TVA computers until the battle, which was shortly before Sylvie was removed and the timeline pruned.
> 
> If Hela died maybe Sylvie has the power of Hela as well as Loki?



Interesting, because as they showed the scene, my wife went "Is that Hela as a child?"  We didn't think about the possibility of it being Hela's child.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

wicked cool said:


> What happened to his shapeshifting ability etc?



First episode established none of his powers work in the TVA.


----------



## Janx

Why didn't Silvie kill Ravonna so Rav wouldn't be able to Prune Loki moments later?

Why was Loki kinda meh on fighting?

Why didn't B15 kill Ravonna during her fight?

Why didn't getting pruned kill Loki?  Is that what really happens to every Prunee?

Why didn't Loki and Silvie jitterslap Ravonna in the elevator, knocking the remote out of her hands and letting them seize the day?

Many questions. Some of which the answer is, to make it harder for Loki.

I for one was shocked when Loki got pruned, and the idea of the next episode of the Tom Hiddleston Show not having Tom Hiddleston in it because they killed his character off would have been ground-breaking television.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Loki seems to think his ability to survive apparent death is his core power!


----------



## Umbran

tomBitonti said:


> It Seems the amount of time which is pruned before there is a more severe event is small .. just a few minutes.  I don’t see how that could reach back to Sylvie’s conception.




So, her conception was not the nexus event.


----------



## Maxperson

Umbran said:


> So, her conception was not the nexus event.



I think it was.  At some point during the episode I think it's Sylvie that says that it was being born female that made her a variant.  I think that it was just at whatever age they showed up at to grab her was when the variation reached the levels that they come to prune at.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Okay, here is some whacky speculation. Laufey and Hela are the parents of _all_ the Lokis. In one timeline Loki is born a male frost giant, taken by Laufey then left to die. Odin rescues and adopts _his grandson_. In another timeline Loki is born female, called Sylvie and raised by her mother Hela.


----------



## Umbran

Maxperson said:


> I think it was.




Meh.  Loki's gender is _fluid_.  What gender Loki is at any moment (even birth) isn't really an issue.

And... this is Pride Month.  I am totally comfortable with the idea that Marvel would choose to _NOT_ make the statement that what gender the character was assigned at birth matters to the universe.



Maxperson said:


> At some point during the episode I think it's Sylvie that says that it was being born female that made her a variant.




Sylvie doesn't know.  Sylvie asks what her nexus event was, in the elevator before seeing the Tiime Keepers, and is _not given an answer_.


----------



## Maxperson

Umbran said:


> Sylvie doesn't know.  Sylvie asks what her nexus event was, in the elevator before seeing the Tiime Keepers, and is _not given an answer_.



At the very beginning of the episode when she and Loki are on the planet, she tells him that the universe is trying to break free, so it manifests chaos, like her being born the goddess of mischief(female).  And that as soon as that created a big enough detour from the sacred timeline, the TVA showed up.  

Perhaps at the end she's asking what her crime was, because being born female isn't a crime.


----------



## DeviousQuail

The relationship between Loki and Sylvie seemed to turn a bit more romantic in this episode. At least from Loki's side of the equation. I'm not sure if I like that as it seems very... narcissistic. Masturbatory? I don't know. I might be reading into it too much. And seeing as everything got absolutoey turned on it's head I'm not sure what to expect going forward.

I have subtitles on most of the time when streaming so the conversation with the Timekeepers was easy enough to follow. The subtitles added a nice touch in the post credit scene because it showed Loki saying "Am I in Hel?" which is a joke I would've missed without them on. 

My rule of thumb is to turn subtitles off when watching comedies (ruins the timing of jokes) or anything that is meant to be particularly beautiful or breathtaking (gets in the way).


----------



## Maxperson

DeviousQuail said:


> The relationship between Loki and Sylvie seemed to turn a bit more romantic in this episode. At least from Loki's side of the equation. I'm not sure if I like that as it seems very... narcissistic. Masturbatory?



I would have gone with incestuous.  I mean, it's hard to be related closer than yourself.


----------



## Maxperson

So what @Umbran said about not making a statement about gender at birth during pride month got me thinking.  So far we have female Loki as a variant, Loki(Bi/Gender Fluid) as a variant, and now with the cut scene at the end, really young Loki, really old Loki, and Black Thor as I assume variants because they were likely pruned to get there.  

It look as if they are going through all the protected categories as variants, presumable to make a statement in the next or final episode.


----------



## Umbran

Maxperson said:


> It look as if they are going through all the protected categories as variants...



 And Alligator Loki is there for... endangered species?


----------



## Maxperson

Umbran said:


> And Alligator Loki is there for... endangered species?



I didn't see an Alligator Loki, unless you're talking about the pictures from a few episodes ago.  I'm talking about the characters that seem to have speaking parts.  I could be wrong, but it seems that here at the end they are singling out protected classes.

Edit: I went back and looked and I just figured that was his pet.  We'll see.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Umbran said:


> And Alligator Loki is there for... endangered species?



Is he Frog Thor's version of Loki? LOL.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Maxperson said:


> I didn't see an Alligator Loki, unless you're talking about the pictures from a few episodes ago.  I'm talking about the characters that seem to have speaking parts.  I could be wrong, but it seems that here at the end they are singling out protected classes.
> 
> Edit: I went back and looked and I just figured that was his pet.  We'll see.




The kid is holding an alligator that is wearing horns. That is Alligator/Crocodile Loki, and is probably a Loki who got stuck in that form after shapeshifting. Foreign language credits list it. The foreign language credits also name the Thor/Loki hybrid as Boastful Loki.


----------



## Maxperson

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> The kid is holding an alligator that is wearing horns. That is Alligator/Crocodile Loki, and is probably a Loki who got stuck in that form after shapeshifting. Foreign language credits list it. The foreign language credits also name the Thor/Loki hybrid as Boastful Loki.



Interesting.  What is foreign language credits?

Edit: Looking at the English credits, it only lists Classic(old) Loki, Kid Loki and Boastful Loki.  No mention of the alligator.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Maxperson said:


> Interesting.  What is foreign language credits?
> 
> Edit: Looking at the English credits, it only lists Classic(old) Loki, Kid Loki and Boastful Loki.  No mention of the alligator.




I think the spoiler article listed the German credits? It is like how the French credits listed Sylvie, but the English credits did not give her a name in episode 2.


----------



## tomBitonti

I’m with the idea that the gender of Loki is fluid, and, according to what matters to the TVA, un-important.  This is refreshing to have in a series as built-in and not worth drawing attention.  And, it makes for interesting discussion re: Loki falling in love with themself.  Having the two instances being of different genders obscures the essential narcissism of the love.  This points out, perhaps, one’s biases in viewing romance, as well as perhaps pointing out how a lot of what seems to be love is really one loving their reflection in their lover.  Intriguing stuff.

TomB


----------



## RangerWickett

Umbran said:


> Meh. Loki's gender is _fluid_. What gender Loki is at any moment (even birth) isn't really an issue.
> 
> And... this is Pride Month. I am totally comfortable with the idea that Marvel would choose to _NOT_ make the statement that what gender the character was assigned at birth matters to the universe.



Yeah, my assumption is:

Prime Timeline - kid Loki (genderfluid) does action X, which the time keepers are cool with. He grows up and mostly uses a male appearance.

Branch Timeline - kid Loki (genderfluid) does action Y, which the time keepers flip out about. She escapes and decides to adopt a feminine appearance, perhaps because she learns about other Lokis and wants to distance herself from them.

As for what X and Y are, it might've been something as simple as X was "being a selfish piss-ant" and Y was "wanting to be heroic and save Asgard."


----------



## elawai

I believe they showed why Sylvie was picked up by the TVA on screen. She was expected to be the Goddess of Mischief, and instead of playing pranks on others, she's playing with toys and taking the role of the hero. She was obviously a well behave child, and that made her a variant.


----------



## tomBitonti

elawai said:


> I believe they showed why Sylvie was picked up by the TVA on screen. She was expected to be the Goddess of Mischief, and instead of playing pranks on others, she's playing with toys and taking the role of the hero. She was obviously a well behave child, and that made her a variant.



+1.  Loki has a prescribed role, as described in one of the initial episodes.  I’m thinking their deviation from that role creates the deviant.

It would seem that the TVA is too narrowly constraining the timeline, and deviations are a normal thing, especially with creatures such as Loki, which are described as a chaotic expression of the universe.

TomB


----------



## trappedslider

tomBitonti said:


> I’m with the idea that the gender of Loki is fluid, and, according to what matters to the TVA, un-important.  This is refreshing to have in a series as built-in and not worth drawing attention.  And, it makes for interesting discussion re: Loki falling in love with themself.  Having the two instances being of different genders obscures the essential narcissism of the love.  This points out, perhaps, one’s biases in viewing romance, as well as perhaps pointing out how a lot of what seems to be love is really one loving their reflection in their lover.  Intriguing stuff.
> 
> TomB



It's in align with the actual Norse mythology in which Loki is well basically everything fluid lol


----------



## Umbran

tomBitonti said:


> +1.  Loki has a prescribed role, as described in one of the initial episodes.  I’m thinking their deviation from that role creates the deviant.




Which is in line with Loki _not being alone_ as being so big a deviation that it could survive an apocalypse.

And this tells us why Sylvie's question didn't get answered.  What are you going to do, tell her, "Your nexus event was the moment you decided to be a hero"?


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Blue said:


> Perhaps it's a mantle of the Trickster God, be it worn by Coyote, Eris, Loki, or Bugs Bunny.



I doubt it. They're the same genetic entity, like clones or twins. (and yes, identical twins can have different assigned sexes, it's just very rare)


Maxperson said:


> I think it was.  At some point during the episode I think it's Sylvie that says that it was being born female that made her a variant.  I think that it was just at whatever age they showed up at to grab her was when the variation reached the levels that they come to prune at.



Even if her gender was the deviation, it wouldn't be conception, just to nitpick. It'd be somewhere between then and birth. Assuming that Loki doesn't just...choose their own gender.


RangerWickett said:


> Yeah, my assumption is:
> 
> Prime Timeline - kid Loki (genderfluid) does action X, which the time keepers are cool with. He grows up and mostly uses a male appearance.
> 
> Branch Timeline - kid Loki (genderfluid) does action Y, which the time keepers flip out about. She escapes and decides to adopt a feminine appearance, perhaps because she learns about other Lokis and wants to distance herself from them.
> 
> As for what X and Y are, it might've been something as simple as X was "being a selfish piss-ant" and Y was "wanting to be heroic and save Asgard."



This fits a lot better than the idea that gender is what made her a variant. Little changes in the Thor or Avengers movies if Loki is female, but otherwise the same.


Umbran said:


> Which is in line with Loki _not being alone_ as being so big a deviation that it could survive an apocalypse.
> 
> And this tells us why Sylvie's question didn't get answered.  What are you going to do, tell her, "Your nexus event was the moment you decided to be a hero"?



The fall of the TVA keeps looking better an better. Also I still think the TKs are fake somehow, or they're Kangs.


----------



## MarkB

RangerWickett said:


> Yeah, my assumption is:
> 
> Prime Timeline - kid Loki (genderfluid) does action X, which the time keepers are cool with. He grows up and mostly uses a male appearance.
> 
> Branch Timeline - kid Loki (genderfluid) does action Y, which the time keepers flip out about. She escapes and decides to adopt a feminine appearance, perhaps because she learns about other Lokis and wants to distance herself from them.
> 
> As for what X and Y are, it might've been something as simple as X was "being a selfish piss-ant" and Y was "wanting to be heroic and save Asgard."



As I recall, Sylvie said that her parents told her early on that she was adopted. I wonder if that was the triggering event - by finding out early on, she didn't have the massive wellspring of resentment and harsh feeling of betrayal that drove the baseline Loki to turn against Asgard.


----------



## Umbran

doctorbadwolf said:


> Also I still think the TKs are fake somehow, or they're Kangs.




So, after scene with them, the question isn't, "Where are the _real_ Time Keepers?"  It is recognized they were fake.  

The question is now, "Who created the TVA?"


----------



## Zaukrie

Did I miss anything not understanding what the robots said? Do I need to go back and re-watch with subtitles?


----------



## MarkB

Zaukrie said:


> Did I miss anything not understanding what the robots said? Do I need to go back and re-watch with subtitles?



The scene might make more sense, but they didn't drop any great revelations.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Umbran said:


> So, after scene with them, the question isn't, "Where are the _real_ Time Keepers?"  It is recognized they were fake.
> 
> The question is now, "Who created the TVA?"



Fair enough. IMO the answer looks more and more like Kang, whereas in the beginning my money was on an older loki.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Imagine if they made an older Loki fill the role that Kang fills in the comics, and all the talk about Kang was just a misdirect. Like, the big bad of the next phase could be an as yet unseen Loki who sees himself as the one true Loki.


----------



## pukunui

Zaukrie said:


> Did I miss anything not understanding what the robots said? Do I need to go back and re-watch with subtitles?



The middle one greeted them. The one on the left asked them if they had any last words. The one on the right said they weren't a threat. The one in the middle then called Sylvie a "cosmic disappointment" and then ordered them to be deleted.

After the fight, the middle one called Sylvie "a child of the Time Keepers" and invited her to talk. She then decapitated him.


----------



## Zaukrie

pukunui said:


> The middle one greeted them. The one on the left asked them if they had any last words. The one on the right said they weren't a threat. The one in the middle then called Sylvie a "cosmic disappointment" and then ordered them to be deleted.
> 
> After the fight, the middle one called Sylvie "a child of the Time Keepers" and invited her to talk. She then decapitated him.



Thanks, only that last one is interesting at all......


----------



## Bardic Dave

doctorbadwolf said:


> Imagine if they made an older Loki fill the role that Kang fills in the comics, and all the talk about Kang was just a misdirect. Like, the big bad of the next phase could be an as yet unseen Loki who sees himself as the one true Loki.



I like your highlander Loki idea a lot, but I think Kang is more likely for entirely meta (and somewhat cynical) reasons. If the BBG is Kang, it ties right into their next big cinematic event, allowing them to build hype and momentum the same way they did with gradually teasing Thanos. If it’s Loki, then the show is a little more self contained. One of those approaches is likely to result in greater viewer engagement over time (and therefore, more money for Disney).

EDIT: actually, there’s no reason it couldn’t be highlander Loki working for Kang. Best of both worlds!


----------



## Morrus

Bardic Dave said:


> I like your highlander Loki idea a lot, but I think Kang is more likely for entirely meta (and somewhat cynical) reasons. If the BBG is Kang, it ties right into their next big cinematic event, allowing them to build hype and momentum the same way they did with gradually teasing Thanos. If it’s Loki, then the show is a little more self contained. One of those approaches is likely to result in greater viewer engagement over time (and therefore, more money for Disney).



The thing with the Kang theory is that the next _Ant Man_ film (where he's being introduced) was supposed to come out before this show.


----------



## Bardic Dave

Morrus said:


> The thing with the Kang theory is that the next _Ant Man_ film (where he's being introduced) was supposed to come out before this show.



Oh! That does undercut my logic a little, but not entirely. Maybe his Antman appearance is also somewhat brief and it’s all building toward some epic blockbuster extravaganza 4-5 years from now? Or have we confirmed that Kang has a big role in Antman?


----------



## Morrus

Bardic Dave said:


> Oh! That does undercut my logic a little, but not entirely. Maybe his Antman appearance is also somewhat brief and it’s all building toward some epic blockbuster extravaganza 4-5 years from now? Or have we confirmed that Kang has a big role in Antman?



I assume he’s the new Bug Bad post-Thanos, but I don’t know.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

I read an interview with the actress playing Sylvie and she said they only filmed for a few weeks before covid shut the production down. And during that down time, there was a lot of rewriting and refining the script, so who knows what was changed from the pre-covid timeline of show release order.

And an interview with the actress playing Ravonna said this show is just the beginning for her character. My guess is that means before she meets and becomes involved with Kang. So maybe a post-credits scene in episode 6 wil give us out first look at Kang before he shows up in Antman 3.

And it has been stated that Tom Hiddleston's Loki will not be in Thor 4, but maybe Sylvie will be? I can just imagine the craziness of the Thor/Sylvie interactions. Or Valkyrie/Sylvie. Or female Thor/Sylvie.


----------



## MarkB

Morrus said:


> I assume he’s the new Bug Bad post-Thanos, but I don’t know.



A new Bug Bad would certainly make sense in an Ant Man movie.

Having him show up as an opportunistic exploiter of the fall-out of the events in Loki seems more likely than having him be the orchestrator of the TVA, at least to me.


----------



## Tonguez

pukunui said:


> The middle one greeted them. The one on the left asked them if they had any last words. The one on the right said they weren't a threat. The one in the middle then called Sylvie a "cosmic disappointment" and then ordered them to be deleted.
> 
> After the fight, the middle one called Sylvie "a child of the Time Keepers" and invited her to talk. She then decapitated him.



Yeah that last comment I did hear which did make me wonder if the whole TVA was created by the True Loki too. (After discussion here though is It actually Hela who set it up and is now returning?

also did anyone else notice that the face on the verify through deletion poster was that of comicbook Mobius


----------



## Bardic Dave

MarkB said:


> A new Bug Bad would certainly make sense in an Ant Man movie.
> 
> Having him show up as an opportunistic exploiter of the fall-out of the events in Loki seems more likely than having him be their orchestrator of the TVA, at least to me.



You make a couple of very good points here!


----------



## pukunui

Tonguez said:


> Yeah that last comment I did hear which did make me wonder if the whole TVA was created by the True Loki too. (After discussion here though is It actually Hela who set it up and is now returning?



I don't really know what that means, although my first thought is maybe the TVA took her with the plan to turn her into one of their agents rather than to just delete her altogether. What if everyone who works for the TVA was specifically created by the TVA in order to become a TVA staff member? (Rather than the TVA just taking cast-off variants and brainwashing them to be staff?)



Tonguez said:


> also did anyone else notice that the face on the verify through deletion poster was that of comicbook Mobius



No, because I haven't read any of the comics.


----------



## Tonguez

MarkB said:


> A new Bug Bad would certainly make sense in an Ant Man movie.
> 
> Having him show up as an opportunistic exploiter of the fall-out of the events in Loki seems more likely than having him be their orchestrator of the TVA, at least to me.



Heh I read this without context and first thing I thought was ‘Oh is Bug Bad some weird Marvel Villain, an Alien Insectoid from the Thor comics?”

When it comes to comics Bug Bad is a perfectly legit name


----------



## Zardnaar

Finally caught up watching as a couple.

 Quite enjoyed it from episode 2 onwards. She who must be obeyed mentioned it was her favorite as Wandavision started off slow and she didn't pay to much attention to Falcon and Winter Soldier. 

 Major Dr Who vibes as well. 

 Think we will do bad batch tonight.


----------



## Maxperson

doctorbadwolf said:


> Even if her gender was the deviation, it wouldn't be conception, just to nitpick. It'd be somewhere between then and birth. Assuming that Loki doesn't just...choose their own gender.



I'm pretty sure XX and XY are determined at conception.


----------



## Tonguez

Maxperson said:


> I'm pretty sure XX and XY are determined at conception.



sort of, but not always. At conception all embryos are female and if the XX chromosones are present then a girl will result.
However the presence of a Y chromosone usually triggers regulator genes to start the development of testes,  90% of the time that works and XY will become a boy, however sometimes the regulator genes fail and you get various development disorders/syndromes XYs with ovaries, intersex etc

relevantly, Loki talked about being able to create duplicates at the molecular level, I suppose being able to control the function of his own chromosones might be part of that and his gender fluidity


----------



## Argyle King

I'm curious how (if at all) Frigga plays into Silvie's story.

Being that (at least) one episode kinda hit the viewer over the head with Loki's emotions regarding Frigga and Sylvie later made it a point to ask about Loki's mother, I think there may be a significant thread there.


----------



## wicked cool

Little confusion on my part
-there has been a repeated scene where one of the lokis sees another person in handcuffs/being tried in court etc. they are not Loki variants but somehow are dangerous to the timeline and yet they seem to have no problem taking people from timelines and basically erasing memories. Think theres any signifigance to these other people?

Lokis powers don't work but at the same time his alternate self (still thinking shes not a Loki) can use her powers at will. Hes also a very good knife fighter and yet he comes off as average at best against security guards


----------



## Paul Farquhar

wicked cool said:


> Lokis powers don't work but at the same time his alternate self



Sylvie cannot use her powers in the TVA either. That was established in episode 3, and when she uses her powers on B15 to recover her memories they leave the TVA in order to do it.


wicked cool said:


> average at best against security guards



The security guards are specially selected, highly trained, and equipped with super-tech body armour. It's their _job_ to deal with Loki variants.


----------



## wicked cool

Paul Farquhar said:


> Sylvie cannot use her powers in the TVA either. That was established in episode 3, and when she uses her powers on B15 to recover her memories they leave the TVA in order to do it.
> 
> The security guards are specially selected, highly trained, and equipped with super-tech body armour. It's their _job_ to deal with Loki variants.



hes one of the top marvel villians plus his other variant seems to be much better against guards etc -We seem to be making a lot of excuses for him


----------



## Paul Farquhar

wicked cool said:


> hes one of the top marvel villians



Not in terms of power.


----------



## Umbran

wicked cool said:


> hes one of the top marvel villians




Mm.  Not because he's good in a knock-down, drag-out fight, though.  Schemes are his bread and butter, not physical combat.  



wicked cool said:


> plus his other variant seems to be much better against guards etc -We seem to be making a lot of excuses for him




She has been running from these guards since she was a kid (which, for an Asgardian, is a long time).  He hasn't.


----------



## wicked cool

Went toe to toe with captain America and thor (movies), frost giants,  multiple elves (some trickery but a lot was hand to hand). took a beating from hulk and survived (was a quick google search and watched a short video).


----------



## Paul Farquhar

wicked cool said:


> Went toe to toe with captain America and thor (movies), frost giants,  multiple elves (some trickery but a lot was hand to hand). took a beating from hulk and survived (was a quick google search and watched a short video).



Got blown up by Hawkeye, and smacked by Jane Foster.

Loki is the party wizard, his fighting skills are mediocre at best. Cast _Mirror Image_ and poke with a dagger. He is hard to kill, but that's about it.


----------



## DeviousQuail

It was cool to see Lady Sif again. I wonder if she'll show up again in Loki.



Spoiler: What is Sif up to?



I checked Jaimie Alexander's IMDB to see if Blindspot was still going and saw she is reprising her role as Sif in Thor: Love and Thunder. I try not to spoil things too much for myself and failed rather spectacularly this time around.


----------



## Zaukrie

Paul Farquhar said:


> Got blown up by Hawkeye, and smacked by Jane Foster.
> 
> Loki is the party wizard, his fighting skills are mediocre at best. Cast _Mirror Image_ and poke with a dagger. He is hard to kill, but that's about it.



He's not even using trickery or magic or much of anything in this show. It is the part of the show I like least at this point. Loki is just a guy.


----------



## Staffan

Zaukrie said:


> He's not even using trickery or magic or much of anything in this show. It is the part of the show I like least at this point. Loki is just a guy.



Well, for large parts of the show he's been inside the TVA which blocks his magic. He's used it plenty on Lamentis and when on excursions.


----------



## Tonguez

Zaukrie said:


> He's not even using trickery or magic or much of anything in this show. It is the part of the show I like least at this point. Loki is just a guy.



On this I agree, disappointingly the writing has failed to present us with a clever, scheming Loki and instead we have a prissy, slightly confused, whiney Loki whose best use of magic was a presdigitation spell to dry his wet clothes (yes ignoring escape from Lamentis since combat telekinesis isnt clever scheming either)


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Zaukrie said:


> He's not even using trickery or magic or much of anything in this show. It is the part of the show I like least at this point. Loki is just a guy.




And it is one of the things I like the best about the show. This is not the same Loki we saw get a redemption arc in the movies. This is a variant Loki who may just not be as good at fighting or magic as the original. He is more human and more relatable to the audience, which is needed for the lead character.


----------



## Staffan

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> And it is one of the things I like the best about the show. This is not the same Loki we saw get a redemption arc in the movies. This is a variant Loki who may just not be as good at fighting or magic as the original. He is more human and more relatable to the audience, which is needed for the lead character.



Eh, I don't know. The branching point is that he managed to escape with the Tesseract after the Battle of New York. That's a fairly recent point of divergence.

That said, overall, MCU Loki is an order of magnitude less powerful than comics-Loki (at least classic villain comics-Loki). Comics-Loki can go toe-to-toe with the X-Men and have a decent chance to come out on top (were it not for their plot armor), MCU-Loki isn't anywhere near that magnitude of power. His status as a significant threat in Avengers is because he has a scepter with the Mind Stone in it, and because he's at the head of an invading army. Once the Avengers actually *face* him, he's not that big a threat.


----------



## Maxperson

Tonguez said:


> On this I agree, disappointingly the writing has failed to present us with a clever, scheming Loki and instead we have a prissy, slightly confused, whiney Loki whose best use of magic was a presdigitation spell to dry his wet clothes (yes ignoring escape from Lamentis since combat telekinesis isnt clever scheming either)



Did you miss last week's episode?  He used illusion more than once.  He magically caught and returned a several ton piece of building that was falling on them back up to where it started to fall.  And I think a few other things.  It was by far the most magic he's used in any of the episodes.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Staffan said:


> Comics-Loki can go toe-to-toe with the X-Men and have a decent chance to come out on top (were it not for their plot armor).




That sounds more like plot armor for him to not be destroyed almost right away by a very powerful team of superheroes. But then, Plot Armor is the most common superpower in all comic books.


----------



## Staffan

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> That sounds more like plot armor for him to not be destroyed almost right away by a very powerful team of superheroes. But then, Plot Armor is the most common superpower in all comic books.



Well, there is some of that. But there's also that comics-Loki is one of the more powerful sorcerers of Asgard – not the most powerful, but probably top 5. MCU-Loki is good at illusion magic, but doesn't have the breadth or magic muscle to do the things comics-Loki does.


----------



## Imaculata

Wild speculation here: given the fact that the Time Keepers were revealed to be robots, I think there is reason to assume that there are no real Time Keepers behind the curtain. Whoever the big bad is that is pulling all the strings, it is most likely the Time Keepers themselves are just a smokescreen; a puppetshow to disguise what is really going on. Also, Ravonna didn't seem surprised that the Time Keepers were robots. So she's in on the whole thing.

If this is true, then we have reason to doubt everything we know about the TVA, and their mission statement. Sylvie asked what her Nexus event was, and wasn't given an answer. And perhaps that's just it. There was no Nexus Event. And perhaps there is no sacred timeline. Perhaps what we have here, is a big bad going after perceived threads, and taking out Loki's from multiple timelines?


----------



## Tonguez

Imaculata said:


> Wild speculation here: given the fact that the Time Keepers were revealed to be robots, I think there is reason to assume that there are no real Time Keepers behind the curtain. Whoever the big bad is that is pulling all the strings, it is most likely the Time Keepers themselves are just a smokescreen; a puppetshow to disguise what is really going on. Also, Ravonna didn't seem surprised that the Time Keepers were robots. So she's in on the whole thing.
> 
> If this is true, then we have reason to doubt everything we know about the TVA, and their mission statement. Sylvie asked what her Nexus event was, and wasn't given an answer. And perhaps that's just it. There was no Nexus Event. And perhaps there is no sacred timeline. Perhaps what we have here, is a big bad going after perceived threads, and taking out Loki's from multiple timelines?



The question then is why Lokis? Why is Loki so important to the mulitverse
(The theory some put up above is that its Loki-Prime trying to eliminate the other variants in some kind of Highlander ploy, but whatever for?)


----------



## MarkB

Imaculata said:


> Wild speculation here: given the fact that the Time Keepers were revealed to be robots, I think there is reason to assume that there are no real Time Keepers behind the curtain. Whoever the big bad is that is pulling all the strings, it is most likely the Time Keepers themselves are just a smokescreen; a puppetshow to disguise what is really going on. Also, Ravonna didn't seem surprised that the Time Keepers were robots. So she's in on the whole thing.
> 
> If this is true, then we have reason to doubt everything we know about the TVA, and their mission statement. Sylvie asked what her Nexus event was, and wasn't given an answer. And perhaps that's just it. There was no Nexus Event. And perhaps there is no sacred timeline. Perhaps what we have here, is a big bad going after perceived threads, and taking out Loki's from multiple timelines?



I feel like we had reason to doubt everything we were told about the TVA right from the beginning. But clearly the TVA's equipment does work in some consistent fashion. Their detectors do find variances in the timeline, they are fooled by hiding in apocalypses that would bury those variances, and their timeline reset charges are in some way discriminatory in terms of what they eliminate. So there is some grain of truth there.


----------



## Omand

Interesting twists so far.  Not sure how we wrap it up in 2 episodes, but I am sure they will surprise me.

Cheers


----------



## pukunui

Omand said:


> Interesting twists so far.  Not sure how we wrap it up in 2 episodes, but I am sure they will surprise me.
> 
> Cheers



I doubt they will wrap everything up, given we know it’s already been renewed for a second season!


----------



## Omand

pukunui said:


> I doubt they will wrap everything up, given we know it’s already been renewed for a second season!



Have they renewed?  I had not heard that.

Thanks for the update.

Cheers


----------



## FitzTheRuke

pukunui said:


> I doubt they will wrap everything up, given we know it’s already been renewed for a second season!



When was this announced? I'm usually pretty up to date on these sorts of things and I've missed this announcement.


----------



## Umbran

I don't know if it has been officially announced.  The series' wikipedia page says a second season is in development, and...

"_On November 5, Production Weekly published an issue that listed all the new productions taking place and actively hiring. Among the hundreds of productions listed, including new seasons of Brooklyn Nine-Nine, The Flash, Ramy, Power Rangers, and The Mandalorian, there is a new season of Loki under the working title "Architect."_"









						'Loki' Season 2 on Disney+ shooting date confirmed in major leak
					

The trickster brother of Thor must have charmed his way into 'Loki' Season 2 on Disney+. Or maybe it was Disney's plan all along.




					www.inverse.com


----------



## Tonguez

FitzTheRuke said:


> When was this announced? I'm usually pretty up to date on these sorts of things and I've missed this announcement.



Last week, Production Weekly (a film industry trade data service) reporting a January 2022 start to production for the second season of the series.

okay ninja’s


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Tonguez said:


> Last week, Production Weekly (a film industry trade data service) reporting a January 2022 start to production for the second season of the series.
> 
> okay ninja’s



Hmmm... I wonder if that's misinformation that is really a yet-to-be-announced Marvel show. Seems more likely to me. I guess we'll find out.


----------



## Blue

hopeless said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> The TVA managing to blindside the Asgardians within their own home?!
> We're talking about the people who were responsible for sealing away the reality stone and you think someone time travelling would be able to bypass defences that would only eventually fail after Odin was incapacitated or dead?
> 
> Did they wipe the entire universe they acquired Sylvie from because that's the only way to avoid being discovered!
> 
> Completely mind wipe everyone on Asgard that knows about her is basically what that would have to achieve if its just pruning a branch.
> 
> So does that charge also erase any evidence of their presence and use of their tech in that location?
> 
> Sorry, but bloody hell the ramifications of this are far more serious than you might realise!



They did all of that on screen, so abundantly yes.  It's called a Reset Charge.

Okay, picture this.  Child!Slyvie is playing.  A nexus event/timeline split occurs because Child!Sylvie does something off the Sacred Timeline.  Mind you, she's "normally" does what agrees with the Sacred Timeline.  Poof, we have a Variant.  This does not invalidate Non-Variant!Child!Sylvie - she shows up just fine.  TVA shows up a few seconds/minutes later, takes Variant!Child!Sylvie and errases back to the point of split.  All we have left is non-variant!child!Slyvie playing,a nd not the slightestr hint there was ever the TVA there because the entire (tiny) timeline that happened on has been reset.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

FitzTheRuke said:


> Hmmm... I wonder if that's misinformation that is really a yet-to-be-announced Marvel show. Seems more likely to me. I guess we'll find out.




Back in May of 2020 it was originally reported that Loki had been given a 2nd season before the 1st had barely started filming. But other that that supposed filming start date that leaked back in November, there has been no other word that I can find that confirms a season 2. Just lots of speculation.


----------



## Blue

Maxperson said:


> I'm pretty sure XX and XY are determined at conception.



That's chromosomal gender.  Genetic gender has to do with the SRY gene being on the Y chromosome, but sometimes it jumps.  Hormonal gender can vary from there as well - there are overlap in the ranges.

That's even before issues where cells may not "hear" the signal from sex hormones and not activate.  Androgen insensitivity is where cells don't respond to male sex hormones called androgens and have external female genitalia even though XY chromosomes.  And that separate and on top of everything before.

Chromosomal gender not matching genitalia happens.  Loki and Sylvie could have the same chromosomes and different biological genders assigned at birth.


----------



## Blue

wicked cool said:


> -there has been a repeated scene where one of the lokis sees another person in handcuffs/being tried in court etc. they are not Loki variants but somehow are dangerous to the timeline and yet they seem to have no problem taking people from timelines and basically erasing memories. Think theres any signifigance to these other people?



I've got unconfirmed headcanon that there is an illusionary person in that particular line that is purged for some relatively minor event in order to make all of the actual variants toe the line.

If you think about the scene of Child!Sylvie escaping, the guards did not seem nearly so quick to purge someone - she sat there trading significant looks with Ravonna before typing on the Timepad.

There's nothing to support it, but it would fit with the rest of the psychological oppression and dominace of the TVA of the rest of the variant check-in process.  "Every word you've every spoken" and "melt you from the inside".


----------



## Maxperson

Blue said:


> I've got unconfirmed headcanon that there is an illusionary person in that particular line that is purged for some relatively minor event in order to make all of the actual variants toe the line.
> 
> If you think about the scene of Child!Sylvie escaping, the guards did not seem nearly so quick to purge someone - she sat there trading significant looks with Ravonna before typing on the Timepad.
> 
> There's nothing to support it, but it would fit with the rest of the psychological oppression and dominace of the TVA of the rest of the variant check-in process.  "Every word you've every spoken" and "melt you from the inside".



I just sort of figured that either Sylvie had the power of plot armor to protect her, or else she was the cause for the quick killings later.


----------



## Tonguez

Blue said:


> I've got unconfirmed headcanon that there is an illusionary person in that particular line that is purged for some relatively minor event in order to make all of the actual variants toe the line.
> 
> If you think about the scene of Child!Sylvie escaping, the guards did not seem nearly so quick to purge someone - she sat there trading significant looks with Ravonna before typing on the Timepad.
> 
> There's nothing to support it, but it would fit with the rest of the psychological oppression and dominace of the TVA of the rest of the variant check-in process.  "Every word you've every spoken" and "melt you from the inside".



Yeah even when that happened in first episode I had speculated it was an illusion - the set up just seemed too blatant. You’d have thought a Trickster like Loki would have seen through it


----------



## RangerWickett

Tonguez said:


> Yeah even when that happened in first episode I had speculated it was an illusion - the set up just seemed too blatant. You’d have though a Trickster like Loki would have seen through it




I just want Loki to win through cleverness, not punching or dumb luck.


----------



## Umbran

Blue said:


> Chromosomal gender not matching genitalia happens.  Loki and Sylvie could have the same chromosomes and different biological genders assigned at birth.





Heck, they are _not humans_.  They won't share our chromosomal or genetic makeup.  Their sex/gender could be determined much differently - and no, it does not need to be based purly on genes.  In some species on Earth, environmental factors (like temperature) determine how young develop.


----------



## Stalker0

Umbran said:


> Heck, they are _not humans_.  They won't share our chromosomal or genetic makeup.  Their sex/gender could be determined much differently



Yeah some species on earth have 3 distinct genetic genders, doesn’t always work how we roll.


----------



## Zaukrie

RangerWickett said:


> I just want Loki to win through cleverness, not punching or dumb luck.



This. Just once in this show, have him look clever.


----------



## Umbran

Zaukrie said:


> This. Just once in this show, have him look clever.




He has been clever once, in realizing how to hide a variant from the TVA - in an apocalypse.

What we see here is a very basic problem of tricksters - a trickster depends on knowing what the blue blazes is going on.  Tricks, con games, and the like require understanding of the context, which Loki doesn't have at the start of this.  We will see if he has it by the end.


----------



## Zaukrie

Umbran said:


> He has been clever once, in realizing how to hide a variant from the TVA - in an apocalypse.
> 
> What we see here is a very basic problem of tricksters - a trickster depends on knowig what the blue blazes is going on.  Tricks, con games, and the like require understanding of the context, which Loki doesn't have at the start of this.  We will see if he has it by the end.



Fair on the first point....but he's the freakin' GOD of this....IMO, this is THE weakness of the show. Loki is just a guy so far.


----------



## Umbran

Zaukrie said:


> Fair on the first point....but he's the freakin' GOD of this....IMO, this is THE weakness of the show. Loki is just a guy so far.




He terms himself a god.  But it isn't like he gains power from worship, or from the platonic ideal of tricks, or something.  When he's in the presence of lesser beings, it is as if he were a god.  But... he isn't one, really.  He's a guy with more power than you or I.


----------



## RangerWickett

I kept expecting a reveal, like in a heist movie, showing that Loki was on top of things the whole time. Maybe my genre savviness is misaligned.


----------



## Mind of tempest

Does anyone know when episode 5 is droping?


----------



## elawai

Midnight PST [about 10 minutes from when I posted this]


----------



## Mind of tempest

elawai said:


> Midnight PST [about 10 minutes from when I posted this]



I have seen croc loki, he is clearly the best.


----------



## Mind of tempest

okay, classic loki is kinda op.


----------



## Davies

... y'know, I could cheerfully go _my whole life_ without seeing another reference to the Philadelphia Experiment.


----------



## Mind of tempest

Davies said:


> ... y'know, I could cheerfully go _my whole life_ without seeing another reference to the Philadelphia Experiment.



i have no idea what that is?


----------



## Davies

Mind of tempest said:


> i have no idea what that is?



Look it up. And note the name of the ship which gets destroyed in this episode.


----------



## wicked cool

the Loki for president-Were those other Loki's with him or random survivors

On the ship. -Was there a Loki on that ship as well

Grant Loki was the best Loki so far!


----------



## Staffan

Alligator Loki meets President Loki: "Loki, Loki! No hands!"


----------



## pukunui

wicked cool said:


> the Loki for president-Were those other Loki's with him or random survivors
> 
> On the ship. -Was there a Loki on that ship as well
> 
> Grant Loki was the best Loki so far!



Yes? No? Definitely!


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan

pukunui said:


> Yes? No? Definitely!



My favorite Loki (besides the two main characters, of course) was Classic Loki. I'm glad that he was able to redeem himself. He is definitely super-powerful, and hopefully our main Loki will be able to do some of the cool stuff he did in the future.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

AcererakTriple6 said:


> My favorite Loki (besides the two main characters, of course) was Classic Loki. I'm glad that he was able to redeem himself. He is definitely super-powerful, and hopefully our main Loki will be able to do some of the cool stuff he did in the future.




He did have that line in there about the blades the Lokis use holding them back or being a crutch or something, and that was limiting their power and true potential. Classic Loki also had many years on his previous planet to learn and refine and become more powerful.

And just the bit where Sylvie showed protagonist Loki that he was capable of enchantment and more power will make the final episode more interesting.


----------



## pukunui

That was a great episode! Can't wait for the finale next week.


----------



## Umbran

Alligator Loki is the best Loki.


----------



## Ovinomancer

Umbran said:


> Alligator Loki is the best Loki.



He's interesting, sure, but all he does is bite people.  If he used magic AND bit people, then, yes, best Loki.


----------



## Janx

Good times. 

My pet theories that are wrong:
Alioth was one of the lizard people and the TVA was how he setup a chow line.

Also, Aligator Loki is one the earliest Loki, before humanity crawled out of the sea.

Mobius still has no jetski.  he should have gotten one to pick up Silvie on.


----------



## Tonguez

Janx said:


> Good times.
> 
> My pet theories that are wrong:
> Alioth was one of the lizard people and the TVA was how he setup a chow line.
> 
> Also, Aligator Loki is one the earliest Loki, before humanity crawled out of the sea.
> 
> Mobius still has no jetski.  he should have gotten one to pick up Silvie on.



I'm hoping to see the Jetski next week (or Mobius taking over control of a reformed/rebuilding TVA)

Fun to see all the Lokis habitually bickering and ready to betray each other (but not really), Great to see Classic Loki actually using powerful magic illusions, Cute to see Loki and Sylvie sharing a blanket, 

Disappointed we get yet another Cloud Monster!!!!! (and they could have made the final enchantment scene cooler)

Anyone notice in the post-credits they keep focusiing on one Timekeeper statue in particular?


----------



## BRayne

Tonguez said:


> Disappointed we get yet another Cloud Monster!!!!! (and they could have made the final enchantment scene cooler)




At least this one is actually a cloud monster in the comics


----------



## Older Beholder

Tonguez said:


> Disappointed we get yet another Cloud Monster!!!!! (and they could have made the final enchantment scene cooler)




Have there really been that many other cloud monsters in the MCU? 
I'm sure there have been, I just can't think of any right now.

I've really enjoyed the series, can't wait for next week. 
I even started playing Assassins Creed Valhalla again just to spend a little time in Asgard between episodes.


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan

The Lizard Wizard said:


> Have there really been that many other cloud monsters in the MCU?



Not the MCU, but Galactus in the Rise of the Silver Surfer is a cloud monster, as is the BBEG in the Green Lantern movie.


----------



## Umbran

AcererakTriple6 said:


> Not the MCU, but Galactus in the Rise of the Silver Surfer is a cloud monster, as is the BBEG in the Green Lantern movie.




I dunno if  "another company used clouds 10+ years ago" should really be held against this use.


----------



## Umbran

Davies said:


> ... y'know, I could cheerfully go _my whole life_ without seeing another reference to the Philadelphia Experiment.




I am rather happy they are referring to things outside of comics continuity.  People who aren't comics fans get a chance to play, "I understand that reference!"


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan

Umbran said:


> I dunno if  "another company used clouds 10+ years ago" should really be held against this use.



Sure, and I'm not saying it's a huge issue, but I know that people have complained when a villain from the comics becomes a cloud monster in the movies. I wasn't the one making the complaint in the first place, just listing examples that I've seen called out.


----------



## Umbran

AcererakTriple6 said:


> Sure, and I'm not saying it's a huge issue, but I know that people have complained when a villain from the comics becomes a cloud monster in the movies. I wasn't the one making the complaint in the first place, just listing examples that I've seen called out.




And I'm as much replying to the critique beforehand as I am to you.


----------



## Tonguez

Umbran said:


> I dunno if  "another company used clouds 10+ years ago" should really be held against this use.



Yeah I’m probably conflating the elemental cloudiness of Surtur and Dormammu with Galactus and Parralax, also Jane Foster was possessed by the Aether (reality stone) at one point too.

and as the MCU has taught us, 10 years isnt that long to be telling the same story


----------



## Older Beholder

Tonguez said:


> Yeah I’m probably conflating the elemental cloudiness of Surtur and Dormammu with Galactus and Parralax, also Jane Foster was possessed by the Aether (reality stone) at one point too.
> 
> and as the MCU has taught us, 10 years isnt that long to be telling the same story




I completely forget about the mist (reality stone) that inhabits Jane Foster and I just re-watched Thor : the dark world this week.


----------



## Tonguez

The Lizard Wizard said:


> I completely forget about the mist (reality stone) that inhabits Jane Foster and I just re-watched Thor : the dark world this week.



Heh, its about the only thing I do remember from The Dark World - for some reason the idea of a Stone that wasnt a Stone really intrigued me


----------



## Older Beholder

Tonguez said:


> Heh, its about the only thing I do remember from The Dark World - for some reason the idea of a Stone that wasnt a Stone really intrigued me




I actually got more out of it than I expected, in one of the early scenes there's a conversation between Loki and Odin where Odin says 'We aren't Gods, we're born, we live and we die just like mortals' and Loki responds 'Give or take 5000 years' 

Little details like that have filled in some background which has helped a bit in watching the TV series.


----------



## Stalker0

Ovinomancer said:


> He's interesting, sure, but all he does is bite people.



Well to be fair, he removed a hand off a loki, that's more damage than most creatures have done to Loki.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

No spoilers, but I gather that next week's episode features a song called "It was alligator Loki all along".


----------



## Janx

Paul Farquhar said:


> No spoilers, but I gather that next week's episode features a song called "It was alligator Loki all along".



You're on to something.  Where was Musical Loki?  There should have been a song and dance number or an attempt to start one.


----------



## Umbran

Janx said:


> You're on to something.  Where was Musical Loki?  There should have been a song and dance number or an attempt to start one.




Alligator Loki was singing the entire time.  When he wasn't laughing, I mean.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Stalker0 said:


> Well to be fair, he removed a hand off a loki, that's more damage than most creatures have done to Loki.




Alligator Loki biting the hand off President Loki was a funny easter egg for the Star Wars franchise.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

I kinda hope the whole thing turns out to be Loki all along. As much as I love alligator Loki, I mean just "our" Loki. He's been pretending to be out of his depths while being two steps ahead of everyone.

That'll stop the complaining that he's not clever enough!


----------



## Parmandur

pukunui said:


> I doubt they will wrap everything up, given we know it’s already been renewed for a second season!



They may wrap up the TVA, with subsequent seasons going further afield with this Loki as a Marvel Doctor Who.


----------



## Umbran

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Alligator Loki biting the hand off President Loki was a funny easter egg for the Star Wars franchise.




I first thought of Fenris Wolf and Tyr...


----------



## Tonguez

Umbran said:


> I first thought of Fenris Wolf and Tyr...



I thought Peter Pan!


----------



## Zaukrie

That was a good episode. Hoping our Loki takes the lesson that he's more powerful than he realizes into future tv/movies.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Umbran said:


> I first thought of Fenris Wolf and Tyr...




It wasn't so much how it happened, but it was his right hand and the way he reacted to losing it that really said Star Wars easter egg to me, and apparently to at least some of the spoiler article writers out there also.

Also, even though they are not the same, Mobius showing up in the pizza delivery car made me think of the standard Pixar Pizza Planet vehicle easter egg that shows up in those movies.


----------



## Tonguez

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> It wasn't so much how it happened, but it was his right hand and the way he reacted to losing it that really said Star Wars easter egg to me, and apparently to at least some of the spoiler article writers out there also.
> 
> Also, even though they are not the same, Mobius showing up in the pizza delivery car made me think of the standard Pixar Pizza Planet vehicle easter egg that shows up in those movies.



Thinking on it, Loki lost a hand in all his movies too didnt he? I recall those were Star Wars nods


----------



## Umbran

The Alligator Loki physical representation for use on set.
(Pic from Kate Herron, Exec Producer and Director for Loki)


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Umbran said:


> The Alligator Loki physical representation for use on set.
> (Pic from Kate Herron, Exec Producer and Director for Loki)
> 
> View attachment 140098




Yep, I saw that pic and am wondering why there is not an official stuffed Alligator Loki already for sale.  lol


----------



## Istbor

Tonguez said:


> I thought Peter Pan!



I thought "Lol, that scream he made when he realized".


----------



## Umbran

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Yep, I saw that pic and am wondering why there is not an official stuffed Alligator Loki already for sale.  lol




Will  Funko POP! do?


----------



## Mallus

This show is a lot more imaginative than the films.


----------



## Umbran

Mallus said:


> This show is a lot more imaginative than the films.




I think that's to be expected.  There's a set of core movies that are the substantive framework of the entire MCU.  Those have to be solid, approachable by all.  They have a lot of heavy lifting to do in establishing characters and the world.


----------



## trappedslider




----------



## Enevhar Aldarion




----------



## Maxperson

Umbran said:


> I first thought of Fenris Wolf and Tyr...



My first thought was don't tick off an alligator.


----------



## Umbran

Maxperson said:


> My first thought was don't tick off an alligator.




Well, he's a _small_ alligator.  Maybe you can annoy him just a little.


----------



## Mirtek

Tonguez said:


> Well he’s a runty Frost Giant rather than a god so he’s not strong by Asgardian standards. He is durable enough to survive a beating from the Hulk though



He's also strong by human (and human super soldier) standards. Cap commented on Loki actually packing a nasty punch after their brief scuffle


----------



## Mirtek

Zaukrie said:


> If, when the TVA first encountered our Loki, they weren't out of time and space, how was their puny mortal weapon able to incapacitate a god so easily?



How was this "taser" in Thor 3 able to so easily do this to Thor? And why the heck did they never try to get one of those for use agains Hela or against Thanos?


----------



## MoonSong

Umbran said:


> Will  Funko POP! do?
> View attachment 140105



Stuffed loki or no sell


----------



## Maxperson

Umbran said:


> Well, he's a _small_ alligator.  Maybe you can annoy him just a little.



Before that episode, I might have agreed with you.  Now I'd verrry carefully around him.


----------



## DeviousQuail

Two frost giants complaining about how cold they are. That joke went right over my head on my first watch.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

DeviousQuail said:


> Two frost giants complaining about how cold they are. That joke went right over my head on my first watch.



I missed that. That's pretty funny.


----------



## Omand

FitzTheRuke said:


> I missed that. That's pretty funny.



I missed it as well.  Yet totally obvious on a second watch and once it is pointed out.

Of course, they are both lying to cover up their attraction, right. 

Cheers


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Umbran said:


> Heck, they are _not humans_.  They won't share our chromosomal or genetic makeup.  Their sex/gender could be determined much differently - and no, it does not need to be based purly on genes.  In some species on Earth, environmental factors (like temperature) determine how young develop.



Hell Jotuns could be born intersex, and any number of factors could lead them to go one way or another as they develop. Or any number of other things.


----------



## trappedslider

Richard E. Grant on alligator whispering and his pitch for a Loki spin-off show
					

Loki star Richard E. Grant breaks down his big sacrifice — and his newfound friendship with Owen Wilson.




					www.yahoo.com
				




*ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: To start, I have to ask about your costar: How was working with Alligator Loki?

RICHARD E. GRANT: *Alligator Loki was fantastic because in reality, he was three stuffed sofa cushions that had been sewn roughly together to react to. [_Laughs_] The fact that I was the only person that could understand what he was saying was just fantastic. I think it's the perfect segue into having Classic Old Loki and Alligator Loki as a sub-series to go to next.

*So would you now consider yourself fluent in alligator?*

Indeed. I am the Doctor Dolittle of the Marvel universe when it comes to speaking to alligators. I speak alligator fluently. Put that in the contract of when I'm doing a series as Classic Old Loki, with muscles and the alligator. It'll have subtitles, so the audience can hear what the alligator is saying, and everyone else is saying, "What is he saying? What is he talking about?" That'll be the way.


----------



## Dire Bare

trappedslider said:


> Richard E. Grant on alligator whispering and his pitch for a Loki spin-off show
> 
> 
> Loki star Richard E. Grant breaks down his big sacrifice — and his newfound friendship with Owen Wilson.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: To start, I have to ask about your costar: How was working with Alligator Loki?
> 
> RICHARD E. GRANT: *Alligator Loki was fantastic because in reality, he was three stuffed sofa cushions that had been sewn roughly together to react to. [_Laughs_] The fact that I was the only person that could understand what he was saying was just fantastic. I think it's the perfect segue into having Classic Old Loki and Alligator Loki as a sub-series to go to next.
> 
> *So would you now consider yourself fluent in alligator?*
> 
> Indeed. I am the Doctor Dolittle of the Marvel universe when it comes to speaking to alligators. I speak alligator fluently. Put that in the contract of when I'm doing a series as Classic Old Loki, with muscles and the alligator. It'll have subtitles, so the audience can hear what the alligator is saying, and everyone else is saying, "What is he saying? What is he talking about?" That'll be the way.



I'd watch that new show on Disney+, "Classic & Alligator Loki"!! We need a better title though, perhaps "Look, it's Loki!" or "Loki Squad".


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Too bad Classic Loki got toasted in the last episode. But Kid Loki and Alligator Loki are still with us and probably next appearing in Young Avengers?


----------



## Zaukrie

I really don't get the appeal of alligator Loki....but that's why they make so many different beers or wines, to each their own.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Zaukrie said:


> I really don't get the appeal of alligator Loki....but that's why they make so many different beers or wines, to each their own.




MCU/Disney/Star Wars need their cute sidekicks. Alligator Loki is the Grogu of the MCU.   lol


----------



## Zaukrie

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> MCU/Disney/Star Wars need their cute sidekicks. Alligator Loki is the Grogu of the MCU.   lol



Which is very different than wanting an entire show with him as one of the two stars.....IMO. Much like Mandalorian struggled at times when it was only Mando and no other character .....


----------



## Dire Bare

Zaukrie said:


> Which is very different than wanting an entire show with him as one of the two stars.....IMO. Much like Mandalorian struggled at times when it was only Mando and no other character .....



Nobody seriously thinks Disney is going to make an Alligator Loki show, nor does anybody really want that. Come on.

Alligator Loki highlighted the weirdness of the MCU multiverse . . . you'd expect to see an older Loki (Classic Loki), a Kid Loki, and a Lady Loki (Sylvie). Even Brash Loki (the Thor-like black Loki) is an easy stretch! But Alligator Loki! And, if you were paying close attention, we even got a cameo of Frog Thor! (he was trapped in a bottle buried in the earth as the camera panned down into the Loki Lair, Chris Hemsworth even did the "voice" for Frog Thor).

It was funny how all of the Lost Lokis treated Alligator Loki as an equal, and only Classic Loki could understand what he was "saying". Plus, we got to see Alligator Loki bite off President Loki's hand, which was a fun moment. Variant Loki (our hero) was just as confused about Alligator Loki as the audience . . . you could see the wheels turning in his head, "How did THAT happen?!?!"


----------



## Zaukrie

Dire Bare said:


> Nobody seriously thinks Disney is going to make an Alligator Loki show, nor does anybody really want that. Come on.
> 
> Alligator Loki highlighted the weirdness of the MCU multiverse . . . you'd expect to see an older Loki (Classic Loki), a Kid Loki, and a Lady Loki (Sylvie). Even Brash Loki (the Thor-like black Loki) is an easy stretch! But Alligator Loki! And, if you were paying close attention, we even got a cameo of Frog Thor! (he was trapped in a bottle buried in the earth as the camera panned down into the Loki Lair, Chris Hemsworth even did the "voice" for Frog Thor).
> 
> It was funny how all of the Lost Lokis treated Alligator Loki as an equal, and only Classic Loki could understand what he was "saying". Plus, we got to see Alligator Loki bite off President Loki's hand, which was a fun moment. Variant Loki (our hero) was just as confused about Alligator Loki as the audience . . . you could see the wheels turning in his head, "How did THAT happen?!?!"



Actually, several people in my FB timeline have asked for that.....I loved him in this episode, but that's literally NOT what some people I know are asking for.....

I loved all the Loki in this last episode, it was fun and great.....


----------



## Dire Bare

Zaukrie said:


> Actually, several people in my FB timeline have asked for that.....I loved him in this episode, but that's literally NOT what some people I know are asking for.....
> 
> I loved all the Loki in this last episode, it was fun and great.....



Well, yeah . . . I'm sure there are _some_ folks who think an Alligator Loki show might actually work . . .

But I'm confident those folks are in the minority. Most folks asking for more Alligator Loki are having fun and being silly, like the actor Richard Grant quoted above.

Seeing Alligator Loki return for an episode in season 2 might be cool. Seeing Alligator Loki and Frog Thor in an animated children's show (_Animal Avengers, Assemble!_) might work . . . .


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Dire Bare said:


> Well, yeah . . . I'm sure there are _some_ folks who think an Alligator Loki show might actually work . . .




If DC is doing this, then Marvel fans can see something similar with Alligator Loki:









						DC League of Super-Pets (2022) - IMDb
					

DC League of Super-Pets: Directed by Jared Stern, Sam J. Levine. With Dwayne Johnson, Kevin Hart, Kate McKinnon, John Krasinski. Krypto the Super-Dog and Superman are inseparable best friends, sharing the same superpowers and fighting crime side by side in Metropolis. However, Krypto must master...




					www.imdb.com


----------



## pukunui

Episode 6 streaming now!

EDIT: Well, that ending sure was confusing.

Good thing we’re getting a season 2!


----------



## Davies

Episode 6

<notes male and female statues> ... oh no.

Not the _Sacred_ Timeline anymore, hm?

A conqueror, huh. Or possibly 'The' Conqueror?

YYYYep. Hello, Immortus.

And yyyep. Loki vs. Sylvie.

At bottom, Loki is a weak man pretending to strength. And at bottom ... Sylvie is an angry, lost child.

.... well, now what?


----------



## pukunui

There’s some stuff over at marvel.com that helps explain that ending. It’s still quite the cliffhanger but it makes more sense to me now!

EDIT: @Davies: Now we wait for whatever comes next. Is that the “What If?” series?


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Yep, What If? is next on the schedule. And the Hawkeye and Ms Marvel series are after that, to carry on the official timeline.

Also, if you watched through the credits, we now have real confirmation that Loki is getting a 2nd season.


----------



## Davies

pukunui said:


> There’s some stuff over at marvel.com that helps explain that ending. It’s still quite the cliffhanger but it makes more sense to me now!
> 
> EDIT: @Davies: Now we wait for whatever comes next. Is that the “What If?” series?



The existence of that likely derives from the flourishing of branching timelines that begins here. But I suspect that we won't get another season of this until after Kang shows up for reals in the next Ant-Man movie ... and possibly after one more possible variant of He Who Remains shows up in the movie that's been teased for the end of this phase.

Because they keep talking about chaos and death and madness ...

... but they never mention Doom.


----------



## pukunui

Yeah, I expect the "What If?" series will explore alternate timelines.


----------



## Mind of tempest

well, now things are really odd.


----------



## Marc Radle

Anyone want to to gove a synopsis of the episode? 

In spoiler tags of course …


----------



## Davies

Marc Radle said:


> Anyone want to to gove a synopsis of the episode?
> 
> In spoiler tags of course …




Or I could just link to one, and if you follow the link you have chosen to be spoiled.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

pukunui said:


> Yeah, I expect the "What If?" series will explore alternate timelines.




Yep, just like the comic books always did, but without any of the stories ever being official alternate timelines. Plus, What If? is an animated series and not canon, unlike how the animated Star Wars series are canon for that universe.


----------



## Dire Bare

Marc Radle said:


> Anyone want to to gove a synopsis of the episode?
> 
> In spoiler tags of course …



Spoiler tags in a spoiler thread . . . file that under redundant in the redundancy file . . .


----------



## John R Davis

Bit meh and now confused


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

I know little about Kang's history (future?) from the comics, so I had to do some recap article reading to understand the ending better. We know already that Jonathan Majors will play Kang as the main villain in Ant-Man 3, and that was Majors as a Variant of Kang in episode 6, but Ant-Man 3 does not come out until 2023 and there are 7 MCU films that will come out before it, and not all of them are origin story movies. That is a lot of time to pass before he is the main threat. It is a good thing we will get season 2 of Loki between now and then. I just wonder how many of those other 7 films will have an appearance by Majors as yet another variant of Kang?


----------



## JohnF

I'm sensing a River Song-like approach to this villain which could lead to 



Spoiler



his origins related to Nathaniel Richards, dad of Mr. Fantastic, and his use of Doom-tech, during or at the end of Majors' time as the character


 -- or, then again, virtually _anything_ else because, you know, multiverses.


----------



## embee

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> MCU/Disney/Star Wars need their cute sidekicks. Alligator Loki is the Grogu of the MCU.   lol



No. Grogu is the Alligator Loki of The Mandalorian.


----------



## tomBitonti

I have to ask ... how does resetting the time-line prevent the events from deviating in exactly the same way what caused them to be reset?  It would seem that "deviant" means "not following the desired goal", in which case, folks have free decision making, but are not allowed to meaningfully exercise it.  That is, if they "choose poorly" they are reset and must decide again.  Assuming sufficient randomness in decision making, but also assuming that most choices are made in a core range which is considered non-deviant, the expectation seems to be that most often, after a reset, a non-deviant choice will be made.

TomB


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

By the way, in season 2, Loki has to bump into the crew from Sliders.


----------



## tomBitonti

Also ... the last episode provides much less closure than either WandaVision or Falcon and the Winder Solder.  Perhaps that is a consequence of there being a definite second season of Loki.

I'm glad that there will be a second season.  I've found this first season to be refreshing and entertaining.  That being said, I felt that there was too much unresolved in the episode.  I think that goes with still having incomplete information, and not trusting what has been said.  I'm thinking the authors have woven a narrative pickle, in that there are no reliable narrative sources.

I think I'm mostly with Sylvie.  Being unable to trust what was said, I would have carried on with the original goal.

TomB


----------



## Marc Radle

JohnF said:


> I'm sensing a River Song-like approach to this villain which could lead to
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> his origins related to Nathaniel Richards, dad of Mr. Fantastic, and his use of Doom-tech, during or at the end of Majors' time as the character
> 
> 
> -- or, then again, virtually _anything_ else because, you know, multiverses.




My understanding is Nathaniel Richards is a far, far distant relative of Reed Richards / Mr. Fantastic, not his dad.


----------



## Stalker0

Ultimately opens the door on a lot of stuff.

it does seem weird that they have noted before the tv shows are not supposed to be critical to the movie storyline…than they unleash a villain whose power makes Thanos look like a wet fart and they literally restart the multiverse.

at the end of the day you could argue if free will has really been achieved…in a realm of infinite possibilities were every choice is represented…can any choice be considered meaningful?

I know the character does exist in the comics but it sort of felt like the looney tunes episode where daffy determines bugs bunny is the author behind it all. It’s like Loki literally just met the actual author of the MCU…who basically says it’s all planned and scripted.

regardless my original concern at episode 1 remains…every single decision made in the MCU to date was pointless, the characters had no free will at all…everything was dictated…nothing matters


----------



## Davies

Stalker0 said:


> t does seem weird that they have noted before the tv shows are not supposed to be critical to the movie storyline…



Whoever said so was clearly lying or had been lied to, because the final scenes of _Black Widow_ heavily depend on knowledge from 



Spoiler



_Falcon & The Winter Soldier_





Stalker0 said:


> regardless my original concern at episode 1 remains…every single decision made in the MCU to date was pointless, the characters had no free will at all…everything was dictated…nothing matters



Or, He Who Remains was lying about more than he admitted.


----------



## Dire Bare

Stalker0 said:


> regardless my original concern at episode 1 remains…every single decision made in the MCU to date was pointless, the characters had no free will at all…everything was dictated…nothing matters



It's not that folks didn't have free will . . . it's just that if you made the "wrong" choice, you were pruned . . .

And now that He Who Remains is dead and the multiverse has returned . . . it has returned along the entire timeline! Free will (without the consequences of pruning) is restored!

It's the mind-bending nature of time travel stories. When Captain America decided to protect Bucky and fight against Iron Man . . . did he do that as the correct choice along the "Sacred Timeline"? Or did he do that while the multiverse was in existence, and anything was possible? The answer is, of course . . . YES!

When it comes to ultimate possibility removing all meaning from our choices and actions . . . I think that's a point-of-view someone could reasonably develop if they were aware of the infinite multiverse. But . . . even if there are an infinite number of alternate DireBares out there, the choices I make and their consequences still matter very much TO MY LIFE, on my timeline! Or at least, that's how I look at it.


----------



## Dire Bare

Stalker0 said:


> it does seem weird that they have noted before the tv shows are not supposed to be critical to the movie storyline…than they unleash a villain whose power makes Thanos look like a wet fart and they literally restart the multiverse.



If you only watch the MCU movies, and skip the Disney+ shows . . . which many folks will do . . . you won't be missing out on any crucial plot points or get all confused about what's happened in-between the movies.

But the Disney+ shows give you a more complete story. Each show, so far, has been entertaining on it's own, and expands on some characters and mysteries of the MCU . . . but you don't need to see them to enjoy the movie universe.

I don't think the reverse is true, though. Imagine watching "Loki" without having seen any of the movies!! Same with WandaVision and The Falcon & the Winter Soldier.


----------



## Marc Radle

Stalker0 said:


> Ultimately opens the door on a lot of stuff.
> 
> it does seem weird that they have noted before the tv shows are not supposed to be critical to the movie storyline…than they unleash a villain whose power makes Thanos look like a wet fart and they literally restart the multiverse.
> 
> at the end of the day you could argue if free will has really been achieved…in a realm of infinite possibilities were every choice is represented…can any choice be considered meaningful?
> 
> I know the character does exist in the comics but it sort of felt like the looney tunes episode where daffy determines bugs bunny is the author behind it all. It’s like Loki literally just met the actual author of the MCU…who basically says it’s all planned and scripted.
> 
> regardless my original concern at episode 1 remains…every single decision made in the MCU to date was pointless, the characters had no free will at all…everything was dictated…nothing matters




No, Marvel actually said the exact opposite - these shows were designed from the beginning to be very tied in to the movies


----------



## Older Beholder

For all the craziness the only thing that really struck me as odd throughout the series was that no ever used the slow-time punch again after Hunter B-15 does it to Loki at the start of the first episode.

Another excellent series, though.

I'm looking forward to What if...? next month.
It makes a lot of sense for that to come next, given how Loki just ended.


----------



## Umbran

tomBitonti said:


> I have to ask ... how does resetting the time-line prevent the events from deviating in exactly the same way what caused them to be reset?  It would seem that "deviant" means "not following the desired goal", in which case, folks have free decision making, but are not allowed to meaningfully exercise it.  That is, if they "choose poorly" they are reset and must decide again.




I don't think that's it.  This is classic "many worlds QM" stuff.  Every time a choice is made1 the universe splits, there's the "original" and a "variant" (where "variant" is the one He Who Remains doesn't want).  Both exist in the overall multiverse.  They simply _remove_ the variant, pruning away the branch but allowing the trunk to proceed.




1. It isn't literally _every_ choice, or you couldn't take finite times to prune.  Many/most decisions are benign, and do not lead to timeline variance - whether you have a bologna or turkey sandwich is probably irrelevant.  Some choices, however, cause branches.  We just don't know how to characterize those


----------



## pukunui

Davies said:


> Whoever said so was clearly lying or had been lied to, because the final scenes of _Black Widow_ heavily depend on knowledge from
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> _Falcon & The Winter Soldier_



Not when you consider that _Black Widow _was originally meant to come out *before* _The Falcon and the Winter Soldier_.



Dire Bare said:


> I don't think the reverse is true, though. Imagine watching "Loki" without having seen any of the movies!! Same with WandaVision and The Falcon & the Winter Soldier.



I had only ever seen both _Guardians of the Galaxy _movies, _Captain Marvel_ and _Black Panther _before I watched _WandaVision_. I _did_ watch the Legends shorts on both Wanda and Vision beforehand, but I enjoyed the show just fine without having seen _Age of Ultron _or anything else. In fact, that show is what made me *want* to watch everything else, whereas previously I'd not been that interested in the MCU.

After showing my girls all of _WandaVision_, I remember asking them if they wanted to see more of Wanda, Vision, Woo or Darcy. They picked Darcy, so we watched _Thor_. And now I've seen all the MCU movies except the Spider Man ones as well as all three Disney+ shows.


----------



## MGibster

Stalker0 said:


> at the end of the day you could argue if free will has really been achieved…in a realm of infinite possibilities were every choice is represented…can any choice be considered meaningful?



You're starting to sound like Rick Sanchez!


----------



## Maxperson

Stalker0 said:


> regardless my original concern at episode 1 remains…every single decision made in the MCU to date was pointless, the characters had no free will at all…everything was dictated…nothing matters



Not exactly.  He knew what would happen, but he couldn't write it.  The best he could do was prune branches where the activities people did didn't diverge too much from his vision.  All the heroes and villains chose to do what they did via free will.  It was just that their free will was found to be acceptable.


----------



## Davies

pukunui said:


> Not when you consider that _Black Widow _was originally meant to come out *before* _The Falcon and the Winter Soldier_.



True, but it's possible that that scene wouldn't have been part of that version. We can't know for sure.


----------



## pukunui

Davies said:


> True, but it's possible that that scene wouldn't have been part of that version. We can't know for sure.



Everything I’ve read online has said that Julia Louis-Dreyfus’ character was meant to be introduced in Black Widow, not Falcon etc.


----------



## RangerWickett

The finale was great. Weird, which capped off the Prisoner style nature of the TVA. A deep swerve about the nature of time and choice and how different versions of your life could turn out so different. And then a pretty great wizard duel with swords and love and betrayal!

And oh, the heartbreak of Mobius not recognizing Loki!


----------



## Maxperson

RangerWickett said:


> The finale was great. Weird, which capped off the Prisoner style nature of the TVA. A deep swerve about the nature of time and choice and how different versions of your life could turn out so different. And then a pretty great wizard duel with swords and love and betrayal!
> *
> And oh, the heartbreak of Mobius not recognizing Loki!*



That was strange.  He got sent back BEFORE she killed He Who Remains, so Loki shouldn't have been in a different timeline.


----------



## Davies

Maxperson said:


> That was strange.  He got sent back BEFORE she killed He Who Remains, so Loki shouldn't have been in a different timeline.



That was a modified TemPad, and who knows what He Who Remains did to it?


----------



## Echohawk

Maxperson said:


> That was strange.  He got sent back BEFORE she killed He Who Remains, so Loki shouldn't have been in a different timeline.



Before she killed him, but not before the timeline started to branch furiously.


----------



## Maxperson

Davies said:


> That was a modified TemPad, and who knows what He Who Remains did to it?



There still wouldn't have been any alternate timelines like that available.  They get pruned.  That timeline spawned from his death.


----------



## Maxperson

Echohawk said:


> Before she killed him, but not before the timeline started to branch furiously.



But he would have gone in whatever direction that timeline went.  At worst, another timeline splits off and spawns another version of Loki in that timeline, but he would remain in the one he was in.


----------



## Echohawk

Maxperson said:


> But he would have gone in whatever direction that timeline went.  At worst, another timeline splits off and spawns another version of Loki in that timeline, but he would remain in the one he was in.



I thought the citadel was outside of time, so I assume that the portal Loki went back through could have been connected to any part of the timeline, including one of the new branches.


----------



## Maxperson

Echohawk said:


> I thought the citadel was outside of time, so I assume that the portal Loki went back through could have been connected to any part of the timeline, including one of the new branches.



There were no new branches.  He Who Remains wasn't dead yet.  His death was the trigger.


----------



## Echohawk

Maxperson said:


> There were no new branches.  He Who Remains wasn't dead yet.  His death was the trigger.



Nope, we see it start to branch shortly after the "Threshold", several minutes before He Who Remains is killed.


----------



## Maxperson

Echohawk said:


> Nope, we see it start to branch shortly after the "Threshold", several minutes before He Who Remains is killed.



No we don't.  He passes the Threshold and that's it.  Once he dies, the lighting outside the window starts to fork and timelines explode.  His death was the trigger.


----------



## Echohawk

Maxperson said:


> No we don't.  He passes the Threshold and that's it.  Once he dies, the lighting outside the window starts to fork and timelines explode.  His death was the trigger.



I suggest a rewatch. The timeline is clearly shown to start branching shortly after the Threshold, before the Loki/Sylvie fight scene.


----------



## Maxperson

Echohawk said:


> I suggest a rewatch. The timeline is clearly shown to start branching shortly after the Threshold, before the Loki/Sylvie fight scene.



You are correct.


----------



## Stalker0

Maxperson said:


> All the heroes and villains chose to do what they did via free will.  It was just that their free will was found to be acceptable.



At least in the version we saw, who knows how many variants were pruned from the avengers roster for alternate decisions made. I can agree that probably not every little decision is monitored that closely, but some of the key ones.... decision to time travel, nat's sacrifice, Tony's decision to snap, all the big plays are likely coming from the master play book, and no one had any real say about those.


----------



## wicked cool

for what happens  in loki i assume we are getting the introduction to the new bad. how does the new bad match up with the current avengers/potential young avengers? Who will be the followers of the big bad


----------



## DeviousQuail

I don't know if this has been confirmed anywhere but I'm guessing the end of episode 6 of Loki is meant to line up with the last post credit scene of WandaVision. 

I'm glad there's another season coming. I really enjoyed the ride and cannot wait for the upcoming phase of marvel movies.


----------



## RangerWickett

For all we know, the TVA has multiple iterations that all exist in the quantum realm, but connect into separate sacred timelines.


----------



## Dire Bare

Sylvie kicked Loki back to the TVA before killing He Who Remains Kang and before the timelines started to branch like crazy . . . . but he sat in the "time theater" (empty room) for a while brooding, before going to look for Mobius.

Sylvie killed Kang Who Remains, and the timeline branching went into overdrive, BEFORE Loki found Mobius and B-15.

It was only a few minutes, but it was enough for the reality of the TVA to change.

There are not multiple, simultaneous versions of the TVA, as it exists outside of time and space. The timeline of the TVA itself was altered.

How exactly this happened, well, we'll find out in season 2.


----------



## Maxperson

Dire Bare said:


> Sylvie kicked Loki back to the TVA before killing He Who Remains Kang and before the timelines started to branch like crazy . . . . but he sat in the "time theater" (empty room) for a while brooding, before going to look for Mobius.
> 
> Sylvie killed Kang Who Remains, and the timeline branching went into overdrive, BEFORE Loki found Mobius and B-15.
> 
> It was only a few minutes, but it was enough for the reality of the TVA to change.
> 
> There are not multiple, simultaneous versions of the TVA, as it exists outside of time and space. The timeline of the TVA itself was altered.
> 
> How exactly this happened, well, we'll find out in season 2.



Perhaps a different "Kang" has already won.


----------



## Zaukrie

Maxperson said:


> Perhaps a different "Kang" has already won.



And is trying to make sure no other Kangs arise.....


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Dire Bare said:


> Sylvie kicked Loki back to the TVA before killing He Who Remains Kang and before the timelines started to branch like crazy . . . . but he sat in the "time theater" (empty room) for a while brooding, before going to look for Mobius.
> 
> Sylvie killed Kang Who Remains, and the timeline branching went into overdrive, BEFORE Loki found Mobius and B-15.
> 
> It was only a few minutes, but it was enough for the reality of the TVA to change.
> 
> There are not multiple, simultaneous versions of the TVA, as it exists outside of time and space. The timeline of the TVA itself was altered.
> 
> How exactly this happened, well, we'll find out in season 2.




No, like the others said, go back and watch that part again, at about the 28-minute mark. The Threshold is crossed, there is thunder, the timeline is shown starting to branch, Majors keeps talking, then Loki and Sylvie fight. The branching started before Loki is sent back.


----------



## Zaukrie

I feel the same way about the finale as I did the whole series....there were parts I absolutely loved, and yet, something I can't put my finger on leaves me feeling like I like it less than I should given how much of it I love. I think (anecdotal evidence being my only evidence) fans of the comics like it more than those of us who only experience the MCU through  tv / movies.


----------



## Stalker0

Dire Bare said:


> There are not multiple, simultaneous versions of the TVA, as it exists outside of time and space. The timeline of the TVA itself was altered.



At the scene at the end, I noticed several "floors" with different letters. My assumption was that this represented different versions of the TVA stacked on top of each other.... but I'll have to go back to the first episode as maybe it was always designed that way.

So looking at the show as a hole, one thing taht is never really explained is why they bring in variants in the first place for judgement. Are there variants that actually win their day in court? Because otherwise it seems far more efficient to just prune them as soon as they are found....especially when you consider that Sylvie escaped during her trial which started her whole arc.

At first i thought maybe that was the Machinations of Kang who Remained....after all he wanted Loki and Sylvie both....but there were other people being judged as well.

also there is still the question of the "temptation". Kang who Remained also offered them a chance to return to the timeline with amazing powers and benefits. Was the point so that both of them could see they didn't want that kind of power? Was it a test and Kang didn't know as much as he let on?

There is also an interesting line from Kang when they first call him the "One that Remains". He says "oh is she still calling me that?"...she refers to Miss Minutes. Now this could simply be polite conversation.... but it could also mean that Miss Minutes has a bit of freedom outside of Kang's omniscience.


----------



## MarkB

Zaukrie said:


> I feel the same way about the finale as I did the whole series....there were parts I absolutely loved, and yet, something I can't put my finger on leaves me feeling like I like it less than I should given how much of it I love. I think (anecdotal evidence being my only evidence) fans of the comics like it more than those of us who only experience the MCU through  tv / movies.



Yeah, I've enjoyed all the characters, and a lot of the basic concepts are great, but it doesn't come together into a satisfying conclusion - and regardless of whether it's getting a second season, I'd have liked a conclusion.

The idea of someone who's so omniscient that he basically just _allowed_ Loki and Sylvie to rock up and end him is deeply unsatisfying in the context of them as variants and gods of mischief. These are the spanners in the works, the ones the TVA have to keep in check lest they knock the whole plan off course. Making them a predictable part of the plan robs the plot of any drama.

And the whole thing about Loki and Sylvie getting together being the thing that creates the greatest variance ever - I _guess_ that was covered at the end of the previous episode when they enchanted the smoke monster, but it didn't feel satisfactorily explored, and now, with the timelines all fractured, it seems like we're past the point where it would matter.


----------



## Zaukrie

IF I was the showrunner, I'd have Kang the Conqueror win, and be using the TVA to prune Lokis and other Kangs (remember, I will never read the comics....so no idea what the story is there), and have Loki team up with other Lokis to save other Kang timelines to keep that Kang from being a tyrant over all the timelines. Or something like that. I want a lot more fun/variant Lokis next season.


----------



## Dire Bare

Stalker0 said:


> So looking at the show as a hole, one thing that is never really explained is why they bring in variants in the first place for judgement. Are there variants that actually win their day in court? Because otherwise it seems far more efficient to just prune them as soon as they are found....especially when you consider that Sylvie escaped during her trial which started her whole arc.



The TVA court system is very much depicted as a "star court" . . . in other words, no, variants are not ever judged "innocent" and returned to their timelines. The assumption of the TVA authorities is guilt.


> also there is still the question of the "temptation". Kang who Remained also offered them a chance to return to the timeline with amazing powers and benefits. Was the point so that both of them could see they didn't want that kind of power? Was it a test and Kang didn't know as much as he let on?



It's hard to tell whether the "temptation" offered by Miss Minutes was genuine, a test, a manipulation . . . all of the above . . . I think while Kang bragged about knowing exactly what was going to happen up until the "threshold" . . . he was aware that the Loki's could still act on their variant natures and do something unexpected.

Time travel man, it's a head trip.


> There is also an interesting line from Kang when they first call him the "One that Remains". He says "oh is she still calling me that?"...she refers to Miss Minutes. Now this could simply be polite conversation.... but it could also mean that Miss Minutes has a bit of freedom outside of Kang's omniscience.



I think Miss Minutes is exactly what she appears to be, a sentient AI with her own free will . . . who serves Kang Who Remains.


----------



## Umbran

Davies said:


> Whoever said so was clearly lying or had been lied to,




You know, how about we hold off on accusing folks of lying, and instead remember that the situation has changed over time - when it was said, it may have been true, and is no longer.


----------



## Umbran

Maxperson said:


> That was strange.  He got sent back BEFORE she killed He Who Remains, so Loki shouldn't have been in a different timeline.




I take it as an implication that "the sacred timeline" itself has changed.


----------



## Umbran

Stalker0 said:


> So looking at the show as a hole, one thing taht is never really explained is why they bring in variants in the first place for judgement. Are there variants that actually win their day in court?




Probably not.  I expect they are brought in so it can be determined whether they need to be pruned, or could be turned into TSA agents.


----------



## Zaukrie

Umbran said:


> Probably not.  I expect they are brought in so it can be determined whether they need to be pruned, or could be turned into TSA agents.



That was my theory.


----------



## Zaukrie

Umbran said:


> I take it as an implication that "the sacred timeline" itself has changed.



Same.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

One thing that was not answered is whether that statue of Kang/Immortus/He Who Remains, that replaced the Time Keepers statue, is of a good Variant or of a bad Variant. Spoiler articles pointed out the statue is wearing Kang's clothing from the comics, but we know the MCU plays with things like that. My guess is a good, or at least neutral one, as it seems they are still doing the same job as before, and because I would think a bad Variant would have just destroyed the TVA completely, or a lot more would have changed in an ominous way than just the statue.


----------



## Mirtek

Maxperson said:


> There still wouldn't have been any alternate timelines like that available.  They get pruned.  That timeline spawned from his death.



Unless he had a prepared timeline he hid from the TVA


----------



## Umbran

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> One thing that was not answered is whether that statue of Kang/Immortus/He Who Remains, that replaced the Time Keepers statue, is of a good Variant or of a bad Variant. Spoiler articles pointed out the statue is wearing Kang's clothing from the comics, but we know the MCU plays with things like that. My guess is a good, or at least neutral one, as it seems they are still doing the same job as before, and because I would think a bad Variant would have just destroyed the TVA completely, or a lot more would have changed in an ominous way than just the statue.




Well, much of the point here is that "good" and "bad" are hard to judge.  Kang Who Remains tells us that the choices are "people get pruned for being variant" or "people die in great multiversal conflict".  I am not sure how we can choose one of these to be "good".  They are both pretty bad choices.

What we probably have is a variant TVA dedicated to establishing a new Sacred Timeline for one of the Kangs.


----------



## Zaukrie

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> One thing that was not answered is whether that statue of Kang/Immortus/He Who Remains, that replaced the Time Keepers statue, is of a good Variant or of a bad Variant. Spoiler articles pointed out the statue is wearing Kang's clothing from the comics, but we know the MCU plays with things like that. My guess is a good, or at least neutral one, as it seems they are still doing the same job as before, and because I would think a bad Variant would have just destroyed the TVA completely, or a lot more would have changed in an ominous way than just the statue.



If I'm the winning Kang (say, bad guy tyrant, rather than "benevolent" tyrant like we had).....I'm using the TVA to prune Lokis and rival Kangs from other universes to stay in power......but then I've never read the comics, so who knows....


----------



## Umbran

Maxperson said:


> There still wouldn't have been any alternate timelines like that available.  They get pruned.  That timeline spawned from his death.




We have to be careful about what that means in this context.  Kang's death is not the nexus event (the _proximal_ cause) for each new timeline - they just all now exist because he's no longer guiding pruning them.


----------



## Umbran

Zaukrie said:


> If I'm the winning Kang (say, bad guy tyrant, rather than "benevolent" tyrant like we had).....I'm using the TVA to prune Lokis and rival Kangs from other universes to stay in power......but then I've never read the comics, so who knows....




The comics are not a guide at this point - in the comics He Who Remains is not any version of Kang.


----------



## Zaukrie

Umbran said:


> The comics are not a guide at this point - in the comics He Who Remains is not any version of Kang.



I don't even know who Kang is.....did they even say "Kang" yesterday? (note, they may have, the sound was down low at home, and my remote doesn't work for the stereo, and I was too lazy to turn it up or admit to my wife I couldn't hear it all.....)


----------



## Umbran

Stalker0 said:


> At the scene at the end, I noticed several "floors" with different letters. My assumption was that this represented different versions of the TVA stacked on top of each other.... but I'll have to go back to the first episode as maybe it was always designed that way.




There have always been multiple floors.  They've been showing us the elvator with all its buttons with those letter combinations all along in every credits sequence.


----------



## Umbran

Zaukrie said:


> I don't even know who Kang is.....did they even say "Kang" yesterday? (note, they may have, the sound was down low at home, and my remote doesn't work for the stereo, and I was too lazy to turn it up or admit to my wife I couldn't hear it all.....)




No, but the final statue in the alternate TVA _was_ Kang's costume.  And, we have been told this actor will be playing Kang in the movies.


----------



## Parmandur

Zaukrie said:


> I don't even know who Kang is.....did they even say "Kang" yesterday? (note, they may have, the sound was down low at home, and my remote doesn't work for the stereo, and I was too lazy to turn it up or admit to my wife I couldn't hear it all.....)



Nathaniel Richards [a descendent of Mr. Fantastic and possible Dr. Doom, apparently], A.K.A. Kang the Conqueror, A.K.A Iron Lad, A.K.A Immortus, A.K.A. the Scarlet Centurion, A.K.A. Pharaoh Rama-Tut is a man of many hats.


----------



## Zaukrie

Umbran said:


> No, but the final statue in the alternate TVA _was_ Kang's costume.  And, we have been told this actor will be playing Kang in the movies.



right....again, not something we'd actually know from the show.
BTW, I loved that portrayal of Kang. Very good. Like I said, I can't figure out why I didn't love this show like I did Wandavision.


----------



## MarkB

Umbran said:


> Well, much of the point here is that "good" and "bad" are hard to judge.  Kang Who Remains tells us that the choices are "people get pruned for being variant" or "people die in great multiversal conflict".  I am not sure how we can choose one of these to be "good".  They are both pretty bad choices.
> 
> What we probably have is a variant TVA dedicated to establishing a new Sacred Timeline for one of the Kangs.



The one big difference is that this is a TVA that's no longer being lied to about who is in charge.

...Unless this Kang is eventually revealed to be just an android, and it turns out that the TVA is now being operated by Alligator Loki. Space lizards FTW.


----------



## Dire Bare

Umbran said:


> Probably not.  I expect they are brought in so it can be determined whether they need to be pruned, or could be turned into TSA agents.



TSA agents!?!? That's worse than turning them into TVA agents!! 

However, I don't think the TVA, as it existed in the series up until the last moment, was in the business of recruiting new agents. Some of them would have to know the secret sauce, that TVA agents are variants and not "created" by the Timekeepers.


----------



## pukunui

Dire Bare said:


> TSA agents!?!? That's worse than turning them into TVA agents!!
> 
> However, I don't think the TVA, as it existed in the series up until the last moment, was in the business of recruiting new agents. Some of them would have to know the secret sauce, that TVA agents are variants and not "created" by the Timekeepers.



I got the sense there was brainwashing involved, hence why Hunter B-15 had to have Sylvie access her memories for her.

So variants get judged. Some get pruned. Others get recruited. The former mostly get eaten by Alioth. The latter are made to forget who they were and are fed lies about being created to serve the TVA.


----------



## Dire Bare

pukunui said:


> I got the sense there was brainwashing involved, hence why Hunter B-15 had to have Sylvie access her memories for her.
> 
> So variants get judged. Some get pruned. Others get recruited. The former mostly get eaten by Alioth. The latter are made to forget who they were and are fed lies about being created to serve the TVA.



So who recruits and brainwashes the variants who aren't pruned? Everybody at the TVA, as depicted, is a brainwashed variant unaware of the true nature of the organization they work for. Miss Minutes is the only "person" in the know . . .


----------



## Zaukrie

Dire Bare said:


> So who recruits and brainwashes the variants who aren't pruned? Everybody at the TVA, as depicted, is a brainwashed variant unaware of the true nature of the organization they work for. Miss Minutes is the only "person" in the know . . .



Someone must.


----------



## trappedslider

It was Miss Minutes all along!


----------



## Dire Bare

Zaukrie said:


> Someone must.



No, no one does. (at least, that's my interp).

Kang Who Remains recruited and brainwashed the agents of the TVA himself "at the beginning", then retreated to his citadel at the end of time.


----------



## Umbran

Zaukrie said:


> right....again, not something we'd actually know from the show.




Sure.  But, the point I was making was _they aren't following the comic books_.


----------



## Umbran

Zaukrie said:


> Someone must.




Well, Kang Who Remains does.  Beyond that, maybe not.


----------



## Umbran

Dire Bare said:


> Some of them would have to know the secret sauce, that TVA agents are variants and not "created" by the Timekeepers.




Not necessarily. 
A variant comes in, comes before a judge.  The judge, following orders or procedure says either, "Prune them" or "Go through that door".  Pruned ones go to the end of the universe.  As for the others...

Kang super-science occurs to the variant as they pass through the door - old memories get wiped. 

Mindwiped new agent walks out a door in some other part of the TVA .  Agents there are told that new agents who need training come out that door.  They get processed and trained.


----------



## Dire Bare

Umbran said:


> Not necessarily.
> A variant comes in, comes before a judge.  The judge, following orders or procedure says either, "Prune them" or "Go through that door".  Pruned ones go to the end of the universe.  As for the others...
> 
> Kang super-science occurs to the variant as they pass through the door - old memories get wiped.
> 
> Mindwiped new agent walks out a door in some other part of the TVA .  Agents there are told that new agents who need training come out that door.  They get processed and trained.



Well sure, you could write a mechanism for new TVA recruits. But we didn't get any of that. They didn't specifically bring up the idea of "new recruits" in the show, but it was pretty heavily implied they'd all been working together for millennia.


----------



## Older Beholder

Dire Bare said:


> No, no one does. (at least, that's my interp).
> 
> Kang Who Remains recruited and brainwashed the agents of the TVA himself "at the beginning", then retreated to his citadel at the end of time.




Renslayer seemed like she had access to more knowledge than the others at the TVA.


----------



## Dire Bare

The Lizard Wizard said:


> Renslayer seemed like she had access to more knowledge than the others at the TVA.



Did we watch the same show? Renslayer had no idea what was going on behind the curtain. She was shocked to find the Timekeepers were fake, but decided to stay "loyal" and prune Mobius because she couldn't stand the idea of losing the mission, she convinced herself the mission was still important.


----------



## Older Beholder

Dire Bare said:


> Did we watch the same show? Renslayer had no idea what was going on behind the curtain. She was shocked to find the Timekeepers were fake, but decided to stay "loyal" and prune Mobius because she couldn't stand the idea of losing the mission, she convinced herself the mission was still important.




Knowing the timekeepers were fake and knowing that variants are being recruited are different things. Of course I have no idea, this is just a theory, I'm keen to re-watch the series from the start and look for more clues.


----------



## Umbran

Dire Bare said:


> Well sure, you could write a mechanism for new TVA recruits. But we didn't get any of that. They didn't specifically bring up the idea of "new recruits" in the show, but it was pretty heavily implied they'd all been working together for millennia.




I was merely speaking to the illogic of saying that "someone must know".  I just wanted to demonstrate that there are (for this show) plausible ways that nobody knows.

But, now that you mention it, "For millennia" hardly has any meaning within a place outside the normal timeline, and people whose memories have been altered.

But, we can even keep that clean, in which recruits are gathered all the time at the TVA, but they are inserted as new agents _at the beginning of the TVA_.   We do not know, and should not assume, that logical paradox means anything for the TVA.  The TVA can start with its full complement, but they are recruited _later_.

Time travel can give you such a headache.


----------



## Davies

Zaukrie said:


> I don't even know who Kang is.....did they even say "Kang" yesterday? (note, they may have, the sound was down low at home, and my remote doesn't work for the stereo, and I was too lazy to turn it up or admit to my wife I couldn't hear it all.....)



They did not, _but_ Kang's best-known sobriquet is "Kang the Conqueror", and He Who Remains referred to himself as 'a conqueror' among other things.


----------



## JEB

Davies said:


> They did not, _but_ Kang's best-known sobriquet is "Kang the Conqueror", and He Who Remains referred to himself as 'a conqueror' among other things.



Also, the variant of He Who Remains we see in statue form is wearing a variation of Kang's comic-book outfit.


----------



## Davies

Zaukrie said:


> right....again, not something we'd actually know from the show.
> BTW, I loved that portrayal of Kang. Very good. Like I said, I can't figure out why I didn't love this show like I did Wandavision.



Speaking for myself, I didn't like a number of the questions unanswered or unsatisfyingly answered by the finale.

What was Sylvie's supposed crime? We never get an answer, and I don't for one second believe that Ravonna didn't remember.  Why, during her trial, did everyone seem to just stand around and stare when she made her escape, rather than at least attempting to stop her? A reasonable conclusion would be that there wasn't a crime, that the trial was a farce, and she was simply picked by He Who Remains to be one of the Lokis who would be present at the finale. _But why her in particular, and not some other Loki?_

Why couldn't Ravonna be pruned? Mobius contacted her with the glowing end of the stick, and nothing happened.


----------



## Maxperson

Umbran said:


> We have to be careful about what that means in this context.  Kang's death is not the nexus event (the _proximal_ cause) for each new timeline - they just all now exist because he's no longer guiding pruning them.



It's interesting, because as He Who Remains the implication is that there are no other Kangs left after the war.  For more Kangs to come into play, the branches have to basically respawn way back in time and bring the Kangs back.


----------



## Staffan

Davies said:


> Why couldn't Ravonna be pruned? Mobius contacted her with the glowing end of the stick, and nothing happened.



Did he? I'll have to go back and check, but I thought he attacked her with it and she disarmed him without actually making contact with the glowy bit.


----------



## Umbran

Maxperson said:


> It's interesting, because as He Who Remains the implication is that there are no other Kangs left after the war.  For more Kangs to come into play, the branches have to basically respawn way back in time and bring the Kangs back.




Yep.  Note that, during the series, when there's action outside the TVA, it isn't always in "the MCU present time".  They have the ability (and presumably the need) to deal with timeline branches occurring in what we'd call the past and future.  

This is implied in the scenes looking at the sky outside Kang Who Remains' citadel.  when the timeline starts branching, it does so _all along its length_, not just from one point forward.


----------



## Dire Bare

The Lizard Wizard said:


> Knowing the timekeepers were fake and knowing that variants are being recruited are different things. Of course I have no idea, this is just a theory, I'm keen to re-watch the series from the start and look for more clues.



Sorry I reacted a bit strongly there.


----------



## Dire Bare

Maxperson said:


> It's interesting, because as He Who Remains the implication is that there are no other Kangs left after the war.  For more Kangs to come into play, the branches have to basically respawn way back in time and bring the Kangs back.



The multiverse reasserts itself with Kang Who Remains death . . . but the new branches are not necessarily the old branches. In other words, the new timelines will be their own thing, and not simply recreations of the original variant timelines. We'll get a Council of Kangs, but different Kangs than the first time around, although likely with the same result, multiversal war!

Or at least, that's my theory.


----------



## Older Beholder

Dire Bare said:


> Sorry I reacted a bit strongly there.



It’s all good. I can understand the frustration, I want answers too!  

The more I think about it though, I think you’re right: the last we see of Renslayer she leaves to find out more (I think she says she’s off to find free will) which does imply that she didn’t know what was going on. 

I’m not sure why but I just got the impression she knew that they (the TVA) were variants, I’ll let you know if I find any evidence to the theory on a rewatch.


----------



## BRayne

The Lizard Wizard said:


> It’s all good. I can understand the frustration, I want answers too!
> 
> The more I think about it though, I think you’re right: the last we see of Renslayer she leaves to find out more (I think she says she’s off to find free will) which does imply that she didn’t know what was going on.
> 
> I’m not sure why but I just got the impression she knew that they (the TVA) were variants, I’ll let you know if I find any evidence to the theory on a rewatch.




She had the pen from the school her prime variant works at is the big one I think


----------



## MarkB

The Lizard Wizard said:


> It’s all good. I can understand the frustration, I want answers too!
> 
> The more I think about it though, I think you’re right: the last we see of Renslayer she leaves to find out more (I think she says she’s off to find free will) which does imply that she didn’t know what was going on.
> 
> I’m not sure why but I just got the impression she knew that they (the TVA) were variants, I’ll let you know if I find any evidence to the theory on a rewatch.



There was the fact that she still had that pen. It seems a little odd to hold onto a keepsake from a time and place you don't remember.

Then again, Mobius had his jetski magazines, so I guess they do still maintain a lot of that on a subconscious level.


----------



## Older Beholder

BRayne said:


> She had the pen from the school her prime variant works at is the big one I think





MarkB said:


> There was the fact that she still had that pen. It seems a little odd to hold onto a keepsake from a time and place you don't remember.
> 
> Then again, Mobius had his jetski magazines, so I guess they do still maintain a lot of that on a subconscious level.



Of course, the pen!

I did notice that, but the meaning didn’t click at the time and with everything else happening I forgot about it.


----------



## trappedslider

No, That's Not Kang the Conqueror in the 'Loki' Finale
					

But you're close




					www.thewrap.com


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

The Lizard Wizard said:


> The more I think about it though, I think you’re right: the last we see of Renslayer she leaves to find out more (I think she says she’s off to find free will) which does imply that she didn’t know what was going on.




Well, the actress said in an interview that this was the beginning for her character. I take that to mean she is the version of the character who has not yet met, and fallen in love with, a version of Kang, as she does in the comics. I would think that will be explored some in season 2.


----------



## Parmandur

Davies said:


> Speaking for myself, I didn't like a number of the questions unanswered or unsatisfyingly answered by the finale.
> 
> What was Sylvie's supposed crime? We never get an answer, and I don't for one second believe that Ravonna didn't remember.  Why, during her trial, did everyone seem to just stand around and stare when she made her escape, rather than at least attempting to stop her? A reasonable conclusion would be that there wasn't a crime, that the trial was a farce, and she was simply picked by He Who Remains to be one of the Lokis who would be present at the finale. _But why her in particular, and not some other Loki?_
> 
> Why couldn't Ravonna be pruned? Mobius contacted her with the glowing end of the stick, and nothing happened.



I think Sylvie's crime was that Odin & Freyja revealed her adopted status. Simple as that, changed the course of her life in a way that would have led to a different 31st century, and had to be pruned.


----------



## Tonguez

pukunui said:


> I had only ever seen both _Guardians of the Galaxy _movies, _Captain Marvel_ and _Black Panther _before I watched _WandaVision_. I _did_ watch the Legends shorts on both Wanda and Vision beforehand, but I enjoyed the show just fine without having seen _Age of Ultron _or anything else. In fact, that show is what made me *want* to watch everything else, whereas previously I'd not been that interested in the MCU.
> 
> After showing my girls all of _WandaVision_, I remember asking them if they wanted to see more of Wanda, Vision, Woo or Darcy. They picked Darcy, so we watched _Thor_. And now I've seen all the MCU movies except the Spider Man ones as well as all three Disney+ shows.



Heh welcome to the Cult of Marvel


----------



## Maxperson

trappedslider said:


> No, That's Not Kang the Conqueror in the 'Loki' Finale
> 
> 
> But you're close
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thewrap.com



This actually shows that @Echohawk and I were both correct.  When the Threshold was passed, the timelines begin to branch.  This happens before Kang's death.  However, Kang says, "“What’s the worst that can happen? You either take over and my life’s work continues, *or you plunge a blade in my chest and an infinite amount of me start another Multiversal War*. And I just end up right back here anyways. Reincarnation, baby.”  It's when that happens that the timelines explode into furious expansion.  

I think that whenever Thresholds were passed, new timelines that Kang then sent the TVA to prune started to bud and that's what we saw in the last episode.  Upon his death, it became confirmed that he would not be pruning any of them, freeing them to expand quickly and create a bunch of new timelines.  Had they opted to take Kang up on his offer OR let Kang live, then those buds we see happening would have been pruned.


----------



## Tonguez

“Eons ago, before the TVA, a variant of myself lived on Earth in the 31st Century” so He Who Remains at the end of time dies, the Timelines reset, a variant establishes _a_ TVA, Loki goes back to that variant TVA, multiverse proceeds.

I think it would be neat to have the Multiversal War played out as a mini-arc in a series of post-credit scenes with Johnathan Majors portraying a different variant not-Kang after each of the the upcoming movies/shows.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

I think part of the ending is telling us that we could have had a normal multiverse, once the Threshold was crossed, if He Who Remains had not died. But because Sylvie was still a selfish child and had to have her revenge, her killing him allowed all the Variant Kang to come back into existence again.


----------



## Umbran

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I think part of the ending is telling us that we could have had a normal multiverse




I'm not sure what a "normal multiverse" is.  We have presumably only seen the MCU under Kang Who Remains - a single universe, not a multiverse.  What Kang told us was that before then, the "normal" was a state of multiversal war.


----------



## Thomas Shey

I just figured He Who Remains was the MCU version of Immortus.


----------



## Umbran

Thomas Shey said:


> I just figured He Who Remains was the MCU version of Immortus.




Maybe.  Or perhaps he was the MCU version of He Who Remains, and we haven't seen the version of Immortus yet...


----------



## Thomas Shey

Umbran said:


> Maybe.  Or perhaps he was the MCU version of He Who Remains, and we haven't seen the version of Immortus yet...




Hard to see what distinctive difference there'd be, unless you're referring to a comic version of the character, since I'm waaaay out of touch with it (my last extensive contact with comics was, uh, 20 year ago?)


----------



## Tonguez

Thomas Shey said:


> I just figured He Who Remains was the MCU version of Immortus.



We,the audience, dont actually know who Immortus is - as much as the MCU has conquered World Wide Media, even in geek circles (like Enworld) there are only a very small group of Marvel villains who could be considered recognisable names - Kang isnt one of them, let alone his variants


----------



## trappedslider

speaking of the MCU in general...they could do a two hour or more show on just some of the family trees for characters......


----------



## Staffan

trappedslider said:


> speaking of the MCU in general...they could do a two hour or more show on just some of the family trees for characters......



When they get to the mutants, I want to see them go all-in on the glory that is the Summers/Grey family tree.


----------



## Morrus

So, seen it finally.

Wandavision > Loki > Falcon so far with the MCU TV shows.


----------



## Morrus

So, I thought the TVA was in some way outside time, and unaffected by all the timelines and branches and stuff. Looks like that's not the case though, and we were seeing _a_ TVA, in a specific branch. Loki's returned to a different one.

The director says "Our interpretation of it was that [Sylvie] thinks that she’s sending him back to the TVA that we know, but because of what’s happening outside that window, it’s on into another branch and it is a different version of the TVA. That reality as we know it, has changed."


----------



## Umbran

Tonguez said:


> We,the audience, dont actually know who Immortus is




We, the audience, don't know that Kang had a not-very-interested love interest... but Ravonna has been there for the entire series.

"We don't know who that is," doesn't mean they can't be using the concept.


----------



## Umbran

Morrus said:


> So, I thought the TVA was in some way outside time, and unaffected by all the timelines and branches and stuff. Looks like that's not the case though, and we were seeing _a_ TVA, in a specific branch. Loki's returned to a different one.




I'm not convinced they have a consistent model for what the TVA is.  I don't think, in plotting it, they are sticking to any rules for how the stuff behaves.


----------



## Janx

Umbran said:


> I'm not convinced they have a consistent model for what the TVA is.  I don't think, in plotting it, they are sticking to any rules for how the stuff behaves.



Giving this a little bit of thought, maybe that's not right.  try this out:

Pre threshold, there's a single time line because the TVA prunes the branches.

As such, the TVA may be indistinguishable from being part of the timeline or outside of it.  If it was outside, it would behave like it had a single timeline.  It's even reasonable to conclude that occupying a space outside all the time lines has it's own timestream and branch risks.  Since they don't seem to be dealing with those, it's more probable that they exist somewhen in the single time line.


----------



## Stalker0

I can imagine the TVA sitting on the bank of the river. Normally it watches the water flow unaffected, but if the river gets too wild you get swept along for the ride


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Morrus said:


> Wandavision > Loki > Falcon so far with the MCU TV shows.




Same here and would rate them A > A- > B+. Nothing is perfect, so no A+, but none of them are bad either. Loki only gets an A- because of unresolved cliffhangers for the 2nd season.


----------



## trappedslider

and now we have a new MCU time line Disney+ Reveals New MCU Timeline Order, Including Loki's Surprising Spot  (Black widow spoilers)

here's the timeline without spoilers


1.) _Captain America: The First Avenger_

2.) _Captain Marvel_

3.) _Iron Man_

4.) _Iron Man 2_

5.) _Thor_

6.) _The Avengers_

7.) _Thor: The Dark World_

8.)_ Iron Man 3_

9.) _Captain America: The Winter Soldier_

10.)_ Guardians of the Galaxy_

11.)_ Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2_

12.) _Avengers: Age of Ultron_

13.) _Ant-Man_

14.) _Captain America: Civil War_

15.) _Black Widow_

16.) _Black Panther_

17.) _Doctor Strange_

18.) _Thor: Ragnarok_

19.) _Ant-Man and the Wasp_

20. _Avengers: Infinity War_

21.)_ Avengers: Endgame_

22.) _Loki_

23.) _WandaVision_

24.) _The Falcon and the Winter Soldier

Black Widow_ takes place directly after 2016’s _Captain America: Civil War_ and before the events of 2018’s _Black Panther_. On the Disney+ side, _Loki_ is dropped immediately after 2019's _Avengers: Endgame_ and before 2021's _WandaVision_.


----------



## pukunui

That’s interesting. I think a show like Loki would be hard to pin to a specific point in the timeline, given it starts in 2012 and then jumps around all over the place (into both the past and the future).


----------



## Parmandur

pukunui said:


> That’s interesting. I think a show like Loki would be hard to pin to a specific point in the timeline, given it starts in 2012 and then jumps around all over the place (into both the past and the future).
> 
> I’d call Loki more of a timeline-spanning show than one that is at a specific point.



Maybe it's less of a "time" like now, and more of an official "chain of causality."

My takeaway is that this means the events of WandaVision would have been pruned in the normal course of TVA activity, and that it.was allowed to happen is part of the opening of the multiverse.


----------



## Tonguez

pukunui said:


> That’s interesting. I think a show like Loki would be hard to pin to a specific point in the timeline, given it starts in 2012 and then jumps around all over the place (into both the past and the future).



One of the voices that is heard when the Lokis enter the End of Time zone ( Episode 6) is Visions dialogue from the end of WandaVision - so if Loki’s adventure occured before WandaVision, theres some timeywhimey weirdness right there


----------



## Parmandur

Tonguez said:


> One of the voices that is heard when the Lokis enter the End of Time zone ( Episode 6) is Visions dialogue from the end of WandaVision - so if Loki’s adventure occured before WandaVision, theres some timeywhimey weirdness right there



But that was a flashback in Wandavision,.to between Age of Ultron and Civil War.


----------



## MarkB

Parmandur said:


> My takeaway is that this means the events of WandaVision would have been pruned in the normal course of TVA activity, and that it.was allowed to happen is part of the opening of the multiverse.



Would they really fit within the TVA's remit? Wanda was reliving a fictional past, but she wasn't creating a different timeline.

The far better candidate for some aggressive pruning would be Dr Strange rolling back time after he arrives too late to protect the Hong Kong sanctuary from Dormammu's followers.


----------



## Tonguez

MarkB said:


> Would they really fit within the TVA's remit? Wanda was reliving a fictional past, but she wasn't creating a different timeline.
> 
> The far better candidate for some aggressive pruning would be Dr Strange rolling back time after he arrives too late to protect the Hong Kong sanctuary from Dormammu's followers.



In my own head the entirety of Thor 2 has been aggressively pruned


----------



## Thomas Shey

MarkB said:


> Would they really fit within the TVA's remit? Wanda was reliving a fictional past, but she wasn't creating a different timeline.
> 
> The far better candidate for some aggressive pruning would be Dr Strange rolling back time after he arrives too late to protect the Hong Kong sanctuary from Dormammu's followers.




I suspect if they cared about the terrestrial timeline at all that Strange convincing Dormammu to back off was a practical necessity, and thus part of the Sacred Timeline.


----------



## trappedslider




----------



## Mind of tempest

trappedslider said:


>



I to wish for the jetski.


----------



## pukunui

Maybe in season 2!


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Yeah, they missed a big opportunity to have a beat-up jetski just sitting out in the fields in the Void, and could have had Mobius get distracted by it for a couple of moments.


----------



## Davies

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Yeah, they missed a big opportunity to have a beat-up jetski just sitting out in the fields in the Void, and could have had Mobius get distracted by it for a couple of moments.



"Next time, baby, next time."


----------



## trappedslider

Marvel made the finales of ‘Loki’ and ‘WandaVision’ sync up perfectly, and we almost missed it
					

Everything in the Marvel Cinematic Universe is interconnected. That was clear from the moment Nick Fury (Samuel L. Jackson) visited Tony Stark in the Iron Man post-credits scene. In the years since, heroes came and went, planets exploded, and a purple supervillain wiped out half of all life in...




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## Tonguez

trappedslider said:


> Marvel made the finales of ‘Loki’ and ‘WandaVision’ sync up perfectly, and we almost missed it
> 
> 
> Everything in the Marvel Cinematic Universe is interconnected. That was clear from the moment Nick Fury (Samuel L. Jackson) visited Tony Stark in the Iron Man post-credits scene. In the years since, heroes came and went, planets exploded, and a purple supervillain wiped out half of all life in...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.yahoo.com



If that was deliberate (and Im happy to beleive it is) then thats some fantastic worldbuilding and easter egg cred


----------



## Morrus

So what's next on DIsney+? So far they've had a live action thing on every week since the Mandalorian s2. Is there anything lined up immediately after Loki?


----------



## pukunui

Morrus said:


> So what's next on DIsney+? So far they've had a live action thing on every week since the Mandalorian s2. Is there anything lined up immediately after Loki?



For the MCU, it's "What If ... ?", a series of 10 animated shorts debuting in August.

For Star Wars, once the Bad Batch has finished, we'll get "Visions", a series of 10 anime shorts debuting in September.


----------



## trappedslider




----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Morrus said:


> So what's next on DIsney+? So far they've had a live action thing on every week since the Mandalorian s2. Is there anything lined up immediately after Loki?




Other than the animated stuff @pukunui listed, no live-action Star Wars until The Book of Boba Fett debuts around Christmas, if it is still on schedule for that teased date. As for the MCU, we are supposed to get Hawkeye, and then Ms Marvel, some time this year, but no start dates for either yet.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

The Marvel Studios: Assembled episode on the making of Loki is now available to watch on D+.


----------



## Blue

Stalker0 said:


> At least in the version we saw, who knows how many variants were pruned from the avengers roster for alternate decisions made. I can agree that probably not every little decision is monitored that closely, but some of the key ones.... decision to time travel, nat's sacrifice, Tony's decision to snap, all the big plays are likely coming from the master play book, and no one had any real say about those.



Of course they had a say about them.  No one did anything they wouldn't do from their own free will.

If I ask you to kill a child and you will never do that, I can't prune all timelines except the one where you did - because it doesn't exist.

Say Peter Parker turning down being on the Avengers at the end of Spiderman: Homecoming was something pruned for.  That's something he would have done, and they could have prunes away branches where he accepted.  But they couldn't have pruned towards a branch where he assassinated Tony at that point - because that's not something Peter would ever have done.

It's free will, they are just picking among the options given to them.


----------



## Blue

Zaukrie said:


> I don't even know who Kang is.....did they even say "Kang" yesterday? (note, they may have, the sound was down low at home, and my remote doesn't work for the stereo, and I was too lazy to turn it up or admit to my wife I couldn't hear it all.....)



On a tangent, I leave CC on for all shows now, even those in my native tongue (English).  I didn't realize how much I was not hearing and filling in until I did that.


----------



## Blue

Umbran said:


> Not necessarily.
> A variant comes in, comes before a judge.  The judge, following orders or procedure says either, "Prune them" or "Go through that door".  Pruned ones go to the end of the universe.  As for the others...
> 
> Kang super-science occurs to the variant as they pass through the door - old memories get wiped.
> 
> Mindwiped new agent walks out a door in some other part of the TVA .  Agents there are told that new agents who need training come out that door.  They get processed and trained.



This explains why they do all of that testing beforehand.  And I guess androids can't be reprogrammed like mortals which is why that doorway will melt them from the inside out - to make sure none get past into the working that could give away the secret.


----------



## Blue

Umbran said:


> But, we can even keep that clean, in which recruits are gathered all the time at the TVA, but they are inserted as new agents _at the beginning of the TVA_.   We do not know, and should not assume, that logical paradox means anything for the TVA.  The TVA can start with its full complement, but they are recruited _later_.
> 
> Time travel can give you such a headache.



But then the TVA agents would recognize the variants they are bringing in, just like the one TVA agent recognized Principal Renslayer.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Interesting quote here.

According to Kid Loki actor Jack Veal, his character is the oldest Loki variant in the Void...

"Many people don't know this, but Kid Loki is the oldest one in The Void. He was pruned thousands of years before and just didn't age because of The Void being the end of time as said by Judge Renslayer. It is also the sheer fact that he killed Thor. As I said, no other Loki would dare try or even do that successfully. That not only makes him the Oldest but the most intimidating as well."


----------



## MarkB

Blue said:


> But then the TVA agents would recognize the variants they are bringing in, just like the one TVA agent recognized Principal Renslayer.



Either they get placed in a different department than the team that brought them in, or the team gets their memories edited.


----------



## trappedslider




----------



## trappedslider




----------



## Janx

Davies said:


> "Next time, baby, next time."



only for Owen to be replaced by a different actor when the time comes.


----------



## MarkB

Janx said:


> only for Owen to be replaced by a different actor when the time comes.



Iron Man 2 Rhodie is a variant.


----------



## Omand

MarkB said:


> Iron Man 2 Rhodie is a variant.



Or was Iron Man 1 Rhodie the variant, and all the other times were the one true timeline?

Yeah?


----------



## MarkB

Omand said:


> Or was Iron Man 1 Rhodie the variant, and all the other times were the one true timeline?
> 
> Yeah?



They should have Terrence Howard show up as a TVA agent in season 2 with no explanation.


----------



## trappedslider




----------



## Retreater

Episode 5 has about done me in. I've tried to watch it twice and fallen asleep both times. I guess there's something so insidiously boring about it. I had to ask my wife what happened just so we can finally move past it.


----------



## trappedslider




----------



## Retreater

Finally finished Loki (I'm slow at watching series). Man, that took a bad turn.  A completely unsatisfying ending, nonsensical info-dump from the main villain (that wasn't even foreshadowed), had to Google what the reactions of the main characters meant.


----------



## MarkB

Retreater said:


> Finally finished Loki (I'm slow at watching series). Man, that took a bad turn.  A completely unsatisfying ending, nonsensical info-dump from the main villain (that wasn't even foreshadowed), had to Google what the reactions of the main characters meant.



In what way wasn't it foreshadowed? We were told about the Time War in the first episode. The only part that wasn't mentioned was that the war was between multiple versions of the same person.


----------



## Retreater

MarkB said:


> In what way wasn't it foreshadowed? We were told about the Time War in the first episode. The only part that wasn't mentioned was that the war was between multiple versions of the same person.



The villain's motivations were not foreshadowed. Nothing about his goals were even hinted at. There was nothing about him wanting to meet Loki - the opposite, he was trying to stop him for 5 out of 6 episodes. There was no hint that he was growing tired of watching the timelines. 
I wouldn't have been satisfied with that even if it were a session of D&D I was running.


----------



## Umbran

Retreater said:


> There was nothing about him wanting to meet Loki - the opposite, he was trying to stop him for 5 out of 6 episodes. There was no hint that he was growing tired of watching the timelines.




If you want a superhero show that is _about the villain_, DC's really the place to go. The show is called "Loki" not "The Man At the End of Time," so it is about Loki.  Marvel shows are about the heroes.  The villains are there to be defeated, not to have their psychology explored.  (Spider-Man movies are somewhat the exception to this tendency)

About how Kang Who Remains wanted to stop Loki - he actually didn't want to stop Loki.  But Loki, a generally distrustful person, can't just be called in and given a job offer.  If anything is too easy, Loki gets suspicious, and backs away - because if Loki were to offer you something easily, it would be because Loki is setting you up for betrayal. Kang used this baroque approach of feigned resistance because the way to make Loki show up somewhere is to tell Loki he cannot go there.


----------



## Rabulias

Umbran said:


> If you want a superhero show that is _about the villain_, DC's really the place to go. The show is called "Loki" not "The Man At the End of Time," so it is about Loki.  Marvel shows are about the heroes.  The villains are there to be defeated, not to have their psychology explored.  (Spider-Man movies are somewhat the exception to this tendency)
> 
> About how Kang Who Remains wanted to stop Loki - he actually didn't want to stop Loki.  But Loki, a generally distrustful person, can't just be called in and given a job offer.  If anything is too easy, Loki gets suspicious, and backs away - because if Loki were to offer you something easily, it would be because Loki is setting you up for betrayal. Kang used this baroque approach of feigned resistance because the way to make Loki show up somewhere is to tell Loki he cannot go there.



This. And because Kang has access to all of history, he knows just what steps to take and how much pressure to apply to get them to that point where he presents his offer to them. So there was no real danger of Loki or Sylvie being killed or never arriving at Kang's citadel.

Edit: And the main point of _Loki _has been said to be about identity. This was a great zoom-in on, as Mobius puts it "what makes Loki tick?" Plot-wise, the show was setting up the multiverse and Kang for future MCU use (and keeping Loki around because he's fun  ), so I can see if you were looking for a great _story_, you might be let down.


----------



## MarkB

Rabulias said:


> This. And because Kang has access to all of history, he knows just what steps to take and how much pressure to apply to get them to that point where he presents his offer to them. So there was no real danger of Loki or Sylvie being killed or never arriving at Kang's citadel.



And it could also be seen as a quality-control process. The Lokis who _could_ make it all the way through to Kang's fortress are the ones he wants.


----------



## Crimson Longinus

Retreater said:


> Finally finished Loki (I'm slow at watching series). Man, that took a bad turn.  A completely unsatisfying ending, nonsensical info-dump from the main villain (that wasn't even foreshadowed), had to Google what the reactions of the main characters meant.



Yep. The ending was disappointing. The villain didn't connect to anything, he was just some random guy we were just introduced. Apparently to some it mattered that he was known from the comics, but but such knowledge really wouldn't be required.

And as a 'big reveal' after the perilous journey it just was lacking. The original story was that TVA was set up by all-knowing Time Keepers to prune timelines or else something horrible would happen. But then it is revealed that this is a lie! The heroes (or "heroes") journey to the end of time to find the truth. There it is revealed in a long exposition monologue that actually  that TVA was set up by all-knowing random person to prune timelines or else something horrible would happen. 

Don't get me wrong, I liked the journey, but the last episode was meh and rather undermined the experience as a whole.


----------



## Zaukrie

Gotta admit, if you don't know the comics..... That ending was just ok. It was a long speech, which is kind of mediocre story telling. There were good parts for sure, but it was confusing, at best, if you don't know the comics.


----------



## Janx

Zaukrie said:


> Gotta admit, if you don't know the comics..... That ending was just ok. It was a long speech, which is kind of mediocre story telling. There were good parts for sure, but it was confusing, at best, if you don't know the comics.



I don't know the comics. I wasn't confused.

Yes this was just some random guy behind it all.  They foreshadowed that with Loki's disbelief in the lizard people setting up the TVA myth. Loki certainly challenged it, the whole series.  So the big reveal was either gonna be Loki was Wrong or Loki was Right. If Loki is right, what other possibility for who's behind the TVA than some random guy could there be? Even if it was Mobius.  That is still, some random guy.

Heck, the icing on the cake is all those lizard statues became Kangs. So the next go-around Loki that comes through and disbelieves, will be like "so you expect me to believe this is all run by some guy named Kang?"

It was a long speech, and that is risky for pacing and storytelling. Kang was running the clock. literally. What else would have worked here?  Fruitless fighting?  He disabused them of that early on.

The thing I found lacking was the lack of closure. Mobius doesn't get a jetski. Loki doesn't get his goal, love, or reward.  Silvie got her revenge.  That's it.  One could argue this is the true Middle Climax.  the cliffhanger and fall.  That Loki now knows himself, and next season will be him climbing toward victory for the Climactic ending.

Guess we'll see next year.


----------



## Umbran

Janx said:


> The thing I found lacking was the lack of closure. Mobius doesn't get a jetski. Loki doesn't get his goal, love, or reward.  Silvie got her revenge.  That's it.  One could argue this is the true Middle Climax.  the cliffhanger and fall.  That Loki now knows himself, and next season will be him climbing toward victory for the Climactic ending.




Yeah, narratively speaking, the biggest overall problem the MCU generally has is that its stories are always so busy setting up _other_ stories, that it often misses satisfying beats.  The entire last episode had the purpose of setting up Kang (for Loki Season 2, and for appearances in movies), rather than what's dramatically interesting for Loki.


----------



## Imaculata

Yeah, I agree with you there. It felt like the focus was more on setting up phase 4, rather than giving a satisfying ending to Loki season 1.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Zaukrie said:


> Gotta admit, if you don't know the comics..... That ending was just ok. It was a long speech, which is kind of mediocre story telling. There were good parts for sure, but it was confusing, at best, if you don't know the comics.




I know nothing about Kang from the comics, and only his basic background info that I read in spoiler articles, and I had no problems with the entire series or the final episode. There was also the fact that for many months before this it was publicly known that Jonathan Majors would be playing Kang in the 3rd Ant-man movie. So as soon as he was on-screen in the final episode, boom, instant connection to the rest of the MCU. My only question about his character, since there are about 7 movies coming out between this and Ant-man 3, is he making any cameos before becoming the main villain?

As for the ending, it seems the Marvel series are made to be more thought-provoking than the movies, which means more talking and less action. I am good with the movies being all the popcorn action, while the series make us listen and think. Besides, the series have enough time on-screen to do that, while the movies do not.


----------



## Umbran

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> My only question about his character, since there are about 7 movies coming out between this and Ant-man 3, is he making any cameos before becoming the main villain?




I don't believe they've officially announced anything at this time. 

But, it might be downright Strange for him not to appear in Multiverse of Madness.  Spider-Man: No Way Home is expected to deal with the multiverse concept, so he might show up there as well.  Eternals and Thor: Love and Thunder are both apt to be semi-cosmic bits, so possibly there too.  Who knows?



> Besides, the series have enough time on-screen to do that, while the movies do not.




The comics genre is originally built on a series of short issues, so it is perhaps not surprising.


----------



## Crimson Longinus

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I know nothing about Kang from the comics, and only his basic background info that I read in spoiler articles, and I had no problems with the entire series or the final episode. There was also the fact that for many months before this it was publicly known that Jonathan Majors would be playing Kang in the 3rd Ant-man movie. So as soon as he was on-screen in the final episode, boom, instant connection to the rest of the MCU.



A connection based on some meta knowledge about who has hired for what and speculation about future of the franchise! An actual narrative connection would be something that was established in the show itself or at least in the MCU as a whole.


----------



## embee

Janx said:


> Mobius doesn't get a jetski









I mean, it's not like Loki doesn't know where to get a nice jetski....


----------



## Janx

Umbran said:


> Yeah, narratively speaking, the biggest overall problem the MCU generally has is that its stories are always so busy setting up _other_ stories, that it often misses satisfying beats.  The entire last episode had the purpose of setting up Kang (for Loki Season 2, and for appearances in movies), rather than what's dramatically interesting for Loki.



along the lessons from writing train of thought, defeating Kang can't be Loki's big finish in season 2, either, because he's slated for the movies. So Loki's going to get screwed again.

The narratively consistent aspect is the premise the show raised, that Loki exists to instigate actual heroes to be their best.  Loki unleashed the next villain for the heroes. Literally, the solution to the new villain from Loki will not occur within Loki's show.


----------



## Umbran

Janx said:


> The narratively consistent aspect is the premise the show raised, that Loki exists to instigate actual heroes to be their best.  Loki unleashed the next villain for the heroes. Literally, the solution to the new villain from Loki will not occur within Loki's show.




Good point.  Many people complain that Loki wasn't much of a trickster in this series, because he didn't play many tricks on people.  However, mythologically, the Trickster is often as you say - the _instigator_, the agent of change.


----------



## Rabulias

Umbran said:


> But, it might be downright Strange for him not to appear in Multiverse of Madness.



I saw what you did there!  


Janx said:


> The narratively consistent aspect is the premise the show raised, that Loki exists to instigate actual heroes to be their best.  Loki unleashed the next villain for the heroes. Literally, the solution to the new villain from Loki will not occur within Loki's show.



Ooh, nice observation! Loki heralded the arrival of Thanos into the MCU in _Avengers_, so it's only fitting that he introduce Kang.


----------



## Janx

Umbran said:


> Good point.  Many people complain that Loki wasn't much of a trickster in this series, because he didn't play many tricks on people.  However, mythologically, the Trickster is often as you say - the _instigator_, the agent of change.



Thanks.  Working on honing my story analysis skills as I my own understanding of the craft is hopefully getting better.

I'm not sure how he got branded as a Trickster, based on the myths.  He is very much a flipside to Odin.  Both are happy to screw others over to get what they want.

It's possible we have misinterpreted Trickster (or whatever word was used in the Eddas).  I got that idea from something Neil Stephensen wrote in describing Athena, goddess of craft.  her surmised craft didn't mean knitting and macrame, but craft as in guile.  it could be Trickster has a similiar misunderstanding.


----------



## Stalker0

Janx said:


> The thing I found lacking was the lack of closure. Mobius doesn't get a jetski. Loki doesn't get his goal, love, or reward.  Silvie got her revenge.  That's it.  One could argue this is the true Middle Climax.  the cliffhanger and fall.  That Loki now knows himself, and next season will be him climbing toward victory for the Climactic ending.



Yeah. Honestly it might have better optics if they had simply said this was the mid season finale, and the second half of the season is coming next year. That optically gives you a little more space to leave things open, no one excepts any closure at the mid season, so you remove any of that concern.

Perhaps they want the second season to include aspects of the upcoming movies, so in that case it makes more sense to "cut" at season 1, have other stuff happen in various movies, than come back and include the results of those movies in your second season.


----------



## Umbran

Janx said:


> I'm not sure how he got branded as a Trickster, based on the myths.




So, how about the building of Valhalla and the origin of Sleipnir?  A workman is building the great hall, on a deadline, so Loki turns into a mare to lure away the workman's horse (the horse is named Svadilfari, the workman is not named), so the workman finishes late and the gods don't have to pay.  The workman goes into a rage (turns out, the workman's a giant), that they call on Thor, who pays the workman's wages with a hammer to the head.  The mare-Loki gives birth to Sleipnir, who Odin takes as his steed...

Or, how about... the death of Baldur?  He tricks Hodr, who is blind, into throwing the dart that slays Baldur, which eventually sets off Ragnarok...

Seems pretty tricksy to me.


----------



## Tonguez

Umbran said:


> So, how about the building of Valhalla and the origin of Sleipnir?  A workman is building the great hall, on a deadline, so Loki turns into a mare to lure away the workman's horse (the horse is named Svadilfari, the workman is not named), so the workman finishes late and the gods don't have to pay.  The workman goes into a rage (turns out, the workman's a giant), that they call on Thor, who pays the workman's wages with a hammer to the head.  The mare-Loki gives birth to Sleipnir, who Odin takes as his steed...
> 
> Or, how about... the death of Baldur?  He tricks Hodr, who is blind, into throwing the dart that slays Baldur, which eventually sets off Ragnarok...
> 
> Seems pretty tricksy to me.



yeah, we've become use to the word Trick being about jovial little pranks, when in older societies the Trickster was generally a character whose actions were antisocial and often resulted in someone dying and/or getting eaten - its not a coincidence that Trickster were associated with  Snakes, Foxes, Coyotes and Spiders all animals that can kill with stealth  (in Faroese Lokkanet is the term used for Spiderweb)


----------



## Janx

Tonguez said:


> yeah, we've become use to the word Trick being about jovial little pranks, when in older societies the Trickster was generally a character whose actions were antisocial and often resulted in someone dying and/or getting eaten - its not a coincidence that Trickster were associated with  Snakes, Foxes, Coyotes and Spiders all animals that can kill with stealth  (in Faroese Lokkanet is the term used for Spiderweb)



yeah, is more of what I was thinking.


----------



## Argyle King

The more I think about the show, the less I think that I like it.

A lot of aspects of it are fun and interesting. But I also find that I dislike how things added through this show change the MCU (past and future) as a whole.

Going forward, the MCU seems to be focusing on time-travel and shapeshifters as ways to re-write things. Both are personal pet peeves of mine when it comes to shows and movies, so I think I'm in the minority of people who has an overall less-good opinion of where the MCU will be going in the future. 

I imagine I'll still watch many of the movies, but my enthusiasm isn't as high as it was before.


----------



## CapnZapp

Time-travel and shapeshifters is a great way to make everything meaningless.

Every decisive result, every killed hero, can be undone at your convenience.


----------



## Stalker0

I will say thst Mauler (he does the unbridled rage videos on YouTube that deconstruct various movies).

he did a fun side by side, showing Loki battling in previous movies vs in the Loki show. I knew Loki was looking weak but man when you see it side by side he really is pathetically weak compared to early incarnations


----------



## Crimson Longinus

Stalker0 said:


> I will say thst Mauler (he does the unbridled rage videos on YouTube that deconstruct various movies).
> 
> he did a fun side by side, showing Loki battling in previous movies vs in the Loki show. I knew Loki was looking weak but man when you see it side by side he really is pathetically weak compared to early incarnations



That bugged me too. Like they seemed to completely forget that he is supposed to have super strength and has hard time dealing with normal humans.


----------



## Staffan

That's a thing that's bugged me since Ragnarok at least. Asgardians are supposed to be inherently super-strong. Not Thor-level strength, but at least "throw cars around easily" strength. I'm pretty sure this is established in Thor 1, and we see this a couple of times in Agents of SHIELD, but the Asgardian refugees in Thor: Ragnarok and Infinity War seem to be completely defenseless.

And yes, the obvious counter is "But Loki is a frost giant, not an Asgardian". But frost giants seem to have similar physical abilities as Asgardians, and if Loki was significantly weaker than his Asgardian peers it would have been pretty obvious that something was up with him much sooner.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Staffan said:


> That's a thing that's bugged me since Ragnarok at least. Asgardians are supposed to be inherently super-strong. Not Thor-level strength, but at least "throw cars around easily" strength. I'm pretty sure this is established in Thor 1, and we see this a couple of times in Agents of SHIELD, but the Asgardian refugees in Thor: Ragnarok and Infinity War seem to be completely defenseless.
> 
> And yes, the obvious counter is "But Loki is a frost giant, not an Asgardian". But frost giants seem to have similar physical abilities as Asgardians, and if Loki was significantly weaker than his Asgardian peers it would have been pretty obvious that something was up with him much sooner.




Loki is also the "runt of the litter" when if comes to Frost Giants. And, at least in the MCU, he is scrawnier than almost all the Asgardians. This is part of why he learns to use agility and wit and tricks to stay alive and succeed in Asgard. Also, while it is not a big difference, variant Loki is from the end of the first Avengers movie, so he does not have the skills and knowledge the main timeline Loki gained over several more movies. He should be a little weaker and less skilled than the original.


----------



## Crimson Longinus

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Loki is also the "runt of the litter" when if comes to Frost Giants. And, at least in the MCU, he is scrawnier than almost all the Asgardians. This is part of why he learns to use agility and wit and tricks to stay alive and succeed in Asgard. Also, while it is not a big difference, variant Loki is from the end of the first Avengers movie, so he does not have the skills and knowledge the main timeline Loki gained over several more movies. He should be a little weaker and less skilled than the original.



In Avengers he casually beats captain America in physical fight. He seems to be far stronger.


----------



## Staffan

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Loki is also the "runt of the litter" when if comes to Frost Giants. And, at least in the MCU, he is scrawnier than almost all the Asgardians. This is part of why he learns to use agility and wit and tricks to stay alive and succeed in Asgard. Also, while it is not a big difference, variant Loki is from the end of the first Avengers movie, so he does not have the skills and knowledge the main timeline Loki gained over several more movies. He should be a little weaker and less skilled than the original.



Weak for an asgardian, yes. But that should still be an order of magnitude stronger than a human.


----------



## MarkB

Staffan said:


> That's a thing that's bugged me since Ragnarok at least. Asgardians are supposed to be inherently super-strong. Not Thor-level strength, but at least "throw cars around easily" strength. I'm pretty sure this is established in Thor 1, and we see this a couple of times in Agents of SHIELD, but the Asgardian refugees in Thor: Ragnarok and Infinity War seem to be completely defenseless.



Hela drew her power from Asgard. Maybe that's true to a small extent for all Asgardians, and the loss of their homeworld did diminish them.


----------



## Maxperson

Staffan said:


> That's a thing that's bugged me since Ragnarok at least. Asgardians are supposed to be inherently super-strong. Not Thor-level strength, but at least "throw cars around easily" strength. I'm pretty sure this is established in Thor 1, and we see this a couple of times in Agents of SHIELD, but the Asgardian refugees in Thor: Ragnarok and Infinity War seem to be completely defenseless.
> 
> And yes, the obvious counter is "But Loki is a frost giant, not an Asgardian". But frost giants seem to have similar physical abilities as Asgardians, and if Loki was significantly weaker than his Asgardian peers it would have been pretty obvious that something was up with him much sooner.



The Asgardian gods are supposed to be that strong.  The Asgardian commoners are a bit stronger on average than humans.


----------



## Staffan

Maxperson said:


> The Asgardian gods are supposed to be that strong.  The Asgardian commoners are a bit stronger on average than humans.



Over on Agents of SHIELD, we see an Asgardian commoner casually catch a knife blade with his bare hand and bend the knife, and then easily break out of handcuffs. In another episode, we see Lorelei casually punch a dude so he goes flying several meters, and Sif kick a pretty big mobile home across a parking lot in order to provide cover. I don't know where Lorelei and Sif rank on the Asgardian power level scale, but I'm pretty sure they're nowhere near the top.

And in Avengers, Loki doesn't really have any trouble kicking America's ass until Iron Man shows up. And I'm pretty sure Captain America is supposed to be a significantly better fighter than TVA no-names and random train guards.


----------



## Stalker0

Crimson Longinus said:


> In Avengers he casually beats captain America in physical fight. He seems to be far stronger.



And goes toe to toe with thor at the end of the movie, at least for a bit.


----------



## Umbran

MarkB said:


> Hela drew her power from Asgard. Maybe that's true to a small extent for all Asgardians, and the loss of their homeworld did diminish them.




So, the real explanation is simpler:  The MCU is not a consistent simulation of an objective world/universe. 

For the _entire history of comics_, the power and abilities of characters varies from author to author, from one time to another, and from one story to another.  Broadly, character power levels are not fit to a consistent objective standard, but to fit the type of story being told at the time.  Trying to compare between the high-power action of the Avengers movie, and the grittier take of the Loki series, is folly.


----------



## MarkB

Umbran said:


> So, the real explanation is simpler:  The MCU is not a consistent simulation of an objective world/universe.



I wasn't trying to provide the real-world explanation. It's always fun to try and come up with an in-universe explanation for such things, even when the real explanation is obviously an oversight or careless writing.

There's even a tradition of it in the comics' letters pages, with fans encouraged to come up with in-universe explanations for mistakes or inconsistencies in return for the valuable reward of a no-prize.


----------



## Crimson Longinus

Umbran said:


> So, the real explanation is simpler:  The MCU is not a consistent simulation of an objective world/universe.
> 
> For the _entire history of comics_, the power and abilities of characters varies from author to author, from one time to another, and from one story to another.  Broadly, character power levels are not fit to a consistent objective standard, but to fit the type of story being told at the time.  Trying to compare between the high-power action of the Avengers movie, and the grittier take of the Loki series, is folly.



True. Still, I feel it improves the immersion to the fictional world if it is consistent. Sure, it is common for superheroes/magical beings/etc to have their powers work in the way the plot currently demands, but I don't think that's a good thing.


----------



## Umbran

MarkB said:


> There's even a tradition of it in the comics' letters pages, with fans encouraged to come up with in-universe explanations for mistakes or inconsistencies in return for the valuable reward of a no-prize.




I'm aware.  But No-Prizes are usually for discrete and specific continuity errors, not for general "he seems less strong" complaints.

And, if you want a no-prize, it helps to not make your answer something that would have impact outside the comic in question.  For example, invoking the loss of Asgard has the implication that _every_ Asgardian will have lost strength for that reason - and we'd have to ask why Thor wasn't a weakling when he went after Thanos with Stormbreaker?

A better no-prize answer is probably that TVA Agents are enhanced up to, say, base Asgardian levels.


----------



## Umbran

Crimson Longinus said:


> Sure, it is common for superheroes/magical beings/etc to have their powers work in the way the plot currently demands, but I don't think that's a good thing.




I think it is a wonderful thing, because it allows characters to be used in more kinds of stories.  

"Strong guy," isn't even a major line in Loki's portfolio, like it is for Hulk or Thor.  His physical strength is not central to how he deals with the world, because however strong he is compared to humans, he's not strong compared to the people he grew up with - Asgardians.


----------



## Crimson Longinus

Umbran said:


> I think it is a wonderful thing, because it allows characters to be used in more kinds of stories.



I'm sure different people feel differently about this. But to me such inconsistencies draw the attention to the artificiality of all it and lessen my immersion. Can the hero do the thing? Depends on how it is easiest to write the story. And sure, it is ultimately all made up, but keeping things consistent helps to pretend it is real and makes the perils feel more real. It allows us to pretend the success is due the skills, power and cunning of the hero and forget it is actually due the whims of the writer.

In more realistic real world setting we automatically know a lot of things. We know that humans can be threatened by guns and that they cannot stop a speeding car by bare hands. But this may not be the case in more fantastic setting, so these things actually need to be established in order the storytelling to work. 



Umbran said:


> "Strong guy," isn't even a major line in Loki's portfolio, like it is for Hulk or Thor.  His physical strength is not central to how he deals with the world, because however strong he is compared to humans, he's not strong compared to the people he grew up with - Asgardians.



Yes, and that's why it is actually interesting that he has that capability.


----------



## Umbran

Crimson Longinus said:


> I'm sure different people feel differently about this. But to me such inconsistencies draw the attention to the artificiality of all it and lessen my immersion. Can the hero do the thing? Depends on how it is easiest to write the story.




So, right here you show a misunderstanding.  This isn't about what is "easier", as if the writer is lazy.  It is about what is _better_ for the story.  If Loki could just bull through the TVA by main strength alone, it would have been a short series, and ultimately not about Loki, _as a person_.




Crimson Longinus said:


> And sure, it is ultimately all made up, but keeping things consistent helps to pretend it is real and makes the perils feel more real.




So, I think of comic books and comic book moves as modern mythology, for which consistency of objective details is not an expectation.


----------



## Stalker0

Umbran said:


> "Strong guy," isn't even a major line in Loki's portfolio, like it is for Hulk or Thor.  His physical strength is not central to how he deals with the world, because however strong he is compared to humans, he's not strong compared to the people he grew up with - Asgardians.



And yet in the majority of Loki’s appearance in the MCU, at one point or another he has engaged in physical combat, and don pretty well.

So it is pretty jarring when he just gets his butt kicked over and over again in the series.

The TVA agents are one thing… they are literal masters of time and space I could respect that they have been enhanced or have tech thst makes them super combat capable.

To me the real inconsistency is when Loki fights a regular person controlled by Sylvie and gets his butt kicked….this is a guy that has tanked hits from captain America, a regular person shouldn’t even slow him down


----------



## Janx

It is what it is.


----------



## Eric V

Stalker0 said:


> And yet in the majority of Loki’s appearance in the MCU, at one point or another he has engaged in physical combat, and don pretty well.
> 
> So it is pretty jarring when he just gets his butt kicked over and over again in the series.
> 
> The TVA agents are one thing… they are literal masters of time and space I could respect that they have been enhanced or have tech thst makes them super combat capable.
> 
> To me the real inconsistency is when Loki fights a regular person controlled by Sylvie and gets his butt kicked….this is a guy that has tanked hits from captain America, a regular person shouldn’t even slow him down



Sylvie probably powers up people she controls?


----------



## Umbran

Eric V said:


> Sylvie probably powers up people she controls?




How about being enchanted removes their drive for self-preservation and much of the usual pain response?  Sure, they're knocking Loki around like they were full-on Asgardians, but not all the Advil in the world is going to save them from the pain tomorrow.


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## RangerWickett

Umbran said:


> "Strong guy," isn't even a major line in Loki's portfolio, like it is for Hulk or Thor. His physical strength is not central to how he deals with the world, because however strong he is compared to humans, he's not strong compared to the people he grew up with - Asgardians.



My complaint was that Loki is the 'clever guy' or the 'illusions guy,' and he never really uses cleverness or illusions to overcome any of his challenges in the series.


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## Umbran

RangerWickett said:


> My complaint was that Loki is the 'clever guy' or the 'illusions guy,' and he never really uses cleverness or illusions to overcome any of his challenges in the series.




And, I wasn't trying to address that complaint.


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## Mirtek

Umbran said:


> So, right here you show a misunderstanding.  This isn't about what is "easier", as if the writer is lazy.  It is about what is _better_ for the story.  If Loki could just bull through the TVA by main strength alone, it would have been a short series, and ultimately not about Loki, _as a person_.



I have to disagree here. If the abilities of a character are a detriment for the particular story you want to tell with him, than it's simply a bad story for him. Either find a logical way to get around that or admit that it's a bad story to tell with this character and do something different.

Just ignoring it and pretending they detriment doesn't exist makes it a bad story.

If your story required Aquaman to be troubled due to falling of a boat and risk drowing in the ocean, you have probably picked the wrong protagonist.


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## Staffan

Mirtek said:


> I have to disagree here. If the abilities of a character are a detriment for the particular story you want to tell with him, than it's simply a bad story for him. Either find a logical way to get around that or admit that it's a bad story to tell with this character and do something different.
> 
> Just ignoring it and pretending they detriment doesn't exist makes it a bad story.
> 
> If your story required Aquaman to be troubled due to falling of a boat and risk drowing in the ocean, you have probably picked the wrong protagonist.



I'd say it depends on whether something is a core trait or not. Aquaman drowning would be dumb. But two super-strong characters fluctuating in power regarding who's strongest? That's completely fair. Maybe one of them had a bad day or something.


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## Cadence

Does Loki have some limited teleportation  in the MCU?  (Like in the last episode getting in front of Sylvie as she swings).


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## Staffan

Cadence said:


> Does Loki have some limited teleportation  in the MCU?  (Like in the last episode getting in front of Sylvie as she swings).



I don't think so, but he's really good at illusions so he can create an image of himself that attracts attention while the real Loki invisibly moves into a better position.

Then again, there is probably some teleportation going on with his daggers, for example.


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## Cadence

Staffan said:


> I don't think so, but he's really good at illusions so he can create an image of himself that attracts attention while the real Loki invisibly moves into a better position.
> 
> Then again, there is probably some teleportation going on with his daggers, for example.



I had thought I remembered him doing it somewhere in the movies (but maybe it was in the comics?)... but then I thought of all of the places he hadn't used it in the movies and figured I must be wrong... until that last scene.


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## Staffan

Cadence said:


> I had thought I remembered him doing it somewhere in the movies (but maybe it was in the comics?)... but then I thought of all of the places he hadn't used it in the movies and figured I must be wrong... until that last scene.



Classic comics Loki can certainly teleport. He's an incredibly strong all-round sorcerer (or wizard, if you count the horned headgear as a hat), probably top 5 in Asgard or thereabouts (only ones I can think of that are stronger would be Odin and Karnilla, Queen of the Norns).


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## Omand

Staffan said:


> Classic comics Loki can certainly teleport. He's an incredibly strong all-round sorcerer (or wizard, if you count the horned headgear as a hat), probably top 5 in Asgard or thereabouts (only ones I can think of that are stronger would be Odin and Karnilla, Queen of the Norns).



Based upon the MCU movies I think you would have to include Frigga as more powerful as well, perhaps not in combat, but in overall "strength" since she taught Loki when he was younger and could see his mind in most cases.  Plus, she could foresee her own death, and yet continued on her chosen course of action.

Cheers


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## trappedslider

Staffan said:


> (or wizard, if you count the horned headgear as a hat),


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## Crimson Longinus

Staffan said:


> Classic comics Loki can certainly teleport. He's an incredibly strong all-round sorcerer (or wizard, if you count the horned headgear as a hat), probably top 5 in Asgard or thereabouts (only ones I can think of that are stronger would be Odin and Karnilla, Queen of the Norns).



MCU Loki seems way feebler than the comic Loki though.


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## Mind of tempest

Crimson Longinus said:


> MCU Loki seems way feebler than the comic Loki though.



Everyone is weaker otherwise half the plots would not work.


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## Thomas Shey

Yeah, the MCU Loki is primarily an illusionist.  Apparently a damn good one, but he doesn't seem overly broad.


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## Staffan

Thomas Shey said:


> Yeah, the MCU Loki is primarily an illusionist.  Apparently a damn good one, but he doesn't seem overly broad.



I mean, he does have other abilities that I assume are magical. On Lamentis he uses telekinesis to deflect a falling pillar, for example. But illusions are clearly what he's most comfortable with and most skilled in.


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## Thomas Shey

Staffan said:


> I mean, he does have other abilities that I assume are magical. On Lamentis he uses telekinesis to deflect a falling pillar, for example. But illusions are clearly what he's most comfortable with and most skilled in.




It wouldn't be surprising that he had some others; he learned from Freya as best we can tell, and she didn't seem to be a pure illusionist.  But as you say, the others must be limited and hard for him because you almost never see them.


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## Enevhar Aldarion

Thomas Shey said:


> It wouldn't be surprising that he had some others; he learned from Freya as best we can tell, and she didn't seem to be a pure illusionist.  But as you say, the others must be limited and hard for him because you almost never see them.




Something else to remember is that the Loki of this show and the Loki of the movies are not the exact same Loki. It is entirely possible that there is some variation in learned abilities that were not significant enough to trigger a pruning because he was still following his path, until he got the Tesseract at the wrong point in his story.


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## Thomas Shey

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Something else to remember is that the Loki of this show and the Loki of the movies are not the exact same Loki. It is entirely possible that there is some variation in learned abilities that were not significant enough to trigger a pruning because he was still following his path, until he got the Tesseract at the wrong point in his story.




Most of his magical training should well predate the branch off though.  We have a pretty good idea where Loki was after that point and it added up to, first, sitting in prison on Asgard, second playing fake Odin, and then hanging out being a party boy on Sakaar.  None of those were particularly likely to have provided much opportunity to learn new stuff (though its not impossible during the fake-Odin period).


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## Enevhar Aldarion

Thomas Shey said:


> Most of his magical training should well predate the branch off though.  We have a pretty good idea where Loki was after that point and it added up to, first, sitting in prison on Asgard, second playing fake Odin, and then hanging out being a party boy on Sakaar.  None of those were particularly likely to have provided much opportunity to learn new stuff (though its not impossible during the fake-Odin period).




I am more referring to training gotten at an earlier age. Variation in what was learned was not enough to trigger a pruning. After all, look at how old Sylvie was before the TVA decided it was time for her branch to go.


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## Thomas Shey

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I am more referring to training gotten at an earlier age. Variation in what was learned was not enough to trigger a pruning. After all, look at how old Sylvie was before the TVA decided it was time for her branch to go.




I don't have any reason to believe there was any difference between the TV show Loki and the movie one prior to the Endgame event.  There's nothing to suggest it, and given that parsimony leads me to assume there isn't until we're given other indications.


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## Mirtek

Mind of tempest said:


> Everyone is weaker otherwise half the plots would not work.



Well, in comic they always get as feeble as the current plot demands


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## Mind of tempest

Mirtek said:


> Well, in comic they always get as feeble as the current plot demands



that is also true?


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