# E. Gary Gygax Sr. May Have Had Another, More Recent Will?



## Mistwell (May 25, 2020)

Luke Gygax filed a will with the Wisconsin courts which allegedly was written by his father Gary Gygax Sr. after the will Gail Gygax is operating on.

This could get interesting.

Link to Public Filing.

Thanks to Tenkar's Tavern for the news.


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## Zardnaar (May 25, 2020)

Assuming it's authentic the mist recent one is legally relevant?

 Here you don't have to file them but you have to be in sound mind. Hand written note pad is legal.


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## Mistwell (May 25, 2020)

Zardnaar said:


> Assuming it's authentic the mist recent one is legally relevant?
> 
> Here you don't have to file them but you have to be in sound mind. Hand written note pad is legal.




The most recent one generally overrides all prior ones. If it's legit, and met the requirements for a will, and was in fact more recent, it could change a lot about who owns what in the estate. 

Right now though it's pure speculation.


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## MGibster (May 25, 2020)

Gary died a little over 12 years ago.  Is it estate still in probate or something?  Is there a reason Luke Gygax didn't file this sometime in the last decade?  It's just weird.


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## Mistwell (May 25, 2020)

MGibster said:


> Gary died a little over 12 years ago.  Is it estate still in probate or something?  Is there a reason Luke Gygax didn't file this sometime in the last decade?  It's just weird.




Yes that's explained in the podcast. There was a recent lawsuit against Gail Gygax which was suddenly and mysteriously dropped by a Hollywood Producer (possibly related to this), and then GaryCon was canceled which cost the family a lot of money. So, the theory is they finally are going ahead with this probate so the kids can get control of the Gary Intellectual Property and cut a deal with the producer which Gail wouldn't do because the Producer insisted on including Luke in the deal.


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## GreyLord (May 25, 2020)

MGibster said:


> Gary died a little over 12 years ago.  Is it estate still in probate or something?  Is there a reason Luke Gygax didn't file this sometime in the last decade?  It's just weird.




This is an excellent question.  If it was valid, the question is why it wasn't filed more recently, and what was the aegis for Gail that was against them in filing?

Seems weird.  Hopefully good luck to all involved.


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## darjr (May 25, 2020)

So not even a filing? Pure raw speculation? This is ghoulish.


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## Mistwell (May 25, 2020)

darjr said:


> So not even a filing? Pure raw speculation? This is ghoulish.




What do you mean not even a filing? Yes, there is a filing. It's in the first post. That is the whole story. With an image and everything. It is Walworth County Case Number 2020PR000058 In the Estate of Ernest Gary Gygax Sr..

The speculation is as to why, not whether.


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## Mistwell (May 25, 2020)

GreyLord said:


> This is an excellent question.  If it was valid, the question is why it wasn't filed more recently, and what was the aegis for Gail that was against them in filing?
> 
> Seems weird.  Hopefully good luck to all involved.




This is what I've pieced together from my readings on this and listening to the podcast.  Where there is speculation I will try to put a question mark or simply use the word speculation, but I am no expert on this and it's just a brief summary of what seems to be much more complex than my pay grade:

1) Gary dies, a will is probated by his wife Gail Gygax, the estate goes to her (there is a family trust involved, but those details are too in the weeds for this review).

2) A second will is located. The kids of Gary are made aware of it, and it apparently (?) gives most or all of the estate to them instead of Gail Gygax. For a variety of reasons the kids of Gary don't want to pursue this at the time of discovery. Speculation - they just don't want to make waves.

3) Some of the kids of Gary and Gail Gygax had a falling out at some point. Some of that falling out involved the Gygax magazine. Some good will between some of the kids and Gail Gygax is burnt during that time.

4) A Hollywood producer wants to develop something from the Intellectual Property of the estate. But he wants it to be done with both Gail Gygax (his wife) and Luke Gygax (one of his sons) as co-owners of the IP? Gail apparently refuses due to a falling out she's had with Luke? Speculation - the producer was asking to include Luke because he was made aware of a possible later will and felt his IP rights would not be secure if they didn't jointly agree.

5) The producer sues Gail Gygax over the agreement they had of some sort. But, suddenly he drops the lawsuit recently. Speculation enters - did he drop the lawsuit because he decided even if he won the lawsuit, the second will could be found valid and he'd have won nothing because Gail wouldn't be the owner of the IP he's suing over anyway?

6) GaryCon, which generates revenue for the kids of Gygax every year, was canceled due to Covid-19. It takes place online this year, but there is obviously some level of revenue hit from this. The day GaryCon was supposed to happen this year, is the same day this lawsuit/probate claim was filed by Luke to decide on the new will.

7) Speculation from Tenkar's Tavern - between the double wammies of the producer wanting to produce material from the IP with a kid of Gary's (Luke) and not being able to without a will being decided in the favor of the kids, and the cancellation of GaryCon which was going to bring in revenue for the kids of Gary, the kids of Gary decided it was finally time to adjudicate the second will to resolve these outstanding issues which had such imminent financial implications for them. 

Those are the supposed reasons for why now.


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## MGibster (May 25, 2020)

I don't really have any skin in this particular game, but I don't know how well Luke is going to fare.  I see Gail's attorney has objected to the admission of this new last will and testament as well as the appointment of Lucien as the personal representative (I think that's the executor of the will).  It's apparent Luke was fine with how the property was distributed years ago and has only recently changed his mind.  I'm not a lawyer, but I can certainly see a judge telling Luke, "It's too late.  You were given an opportunity to make your case years ago before the estate had been settled.  Objection sustained."  In Wisconsin, probate must be finished within 18 months but a judge may grant an extension if necessary.  I don't think Luke will fare well here.


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## Mistwell (May 25, 2020)

MGibster said:


> I don't really have any skin in this particular game, but I don't know how well Luke is going to fare.  I see Gail's attorney has objected to the admission of this new last will and testament as well as the appointment of Lucien as the personal representative (I think that's the executor of the will).  It's apparent Luke was fine with how the property was distributed years ago and has only recently changed his mind.  I'm not a lawyer, but I can certainly see a judge telling Luke, "It's too late.  You were given an opportunity to make your case years ago before the estate had been settled.  Objection sustained."  In Wisconsin, probate must be finished within 18 months but a judge may grant an extension if necessary.  I don't think Luke will fare well here.




I suspect this is all more complicated than we can suss out from what we have. I think a lot of this involves Gail's management of the trust. Even if a new will were found to have been probated too late, if it's found to be real, then it can serve to force certain actions under the management of the existing trust as an indication of the decedent's intent behind how they wanted the trust to be run. Which is why I say some of this is just beyond my pay grade, and the trust details too in the weeds for me. 

But bottom line, the adjudication of the old will can be found to be valid while simultaneously the adjudication of this new will to have been real (but brought too late) can change how the old will is managed by the trustee.


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## darjr (May 25, 2020)

Tenkar is one of those 'angry' pot stirrers I'm done with on the net. No thanks. I'll wait till Luke wants to talk about it.


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## Mistwell (May 25, 2020)

darjr said:


> Tenkar is one of those 'angry' pot stirrers I'm done with on the net. No thanks. I'll wait till Luke wants to talk about it.




He just got out of the hospital after a prolonged and pretty intense health battle. He doesn't seem very angry at the moment. Just thankful to be alive. But yes he's a gossip columnist in the style of Rich Johnson for Comics industry gossip.


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## MGibster (May 25, 2020)

Mistwell said:


> I suspect this is all more complicated than we can suss out from what we have. I think a lot of this involves Gail's management of the trust.




I imagine you're correct but Luke's feelings regarding Gail's management of the trust isn't really relevant from a legal perspective.  



> Even if a new will were found to have been probated too late, if it's found to be real, then it can serve to force certain actions under the management of the existing trust as an indication of the decedent's intent behind how they wanted the trust to be run. Which is why I say some of this is just beyond my pay grade, and the trust details too in the weeds for me.




Wisconsin has a time limit of 18 months for probate to be completed which gives ample time for disputes to be settled, taxes to be paid, and creditors to be notified.  The reason most states have a limit on how long probate should take is so people can take care of their business, get on with their lives, and not worry that ten years from now someone is going to show up to challenge it.  



> But bottom line, the adjudication of the old will can be found to be valid while simultaneously the adjudication of this new will to have been real (but brought too late) can change how the old will is managed by the trustee.




This isn't a situation where the most recent will was lost or hidden before being discovered as those who had custody and/or knowledge of Gary's most recent will deliberately withheld it from the court.  In Wisconsin, the person who has custody of the will is required by law to either file it with the court or present it to the personal representative within 30 days of finding out about the death of the testator.  Any person who has reason to believe a will exist and has not been filed is required to inform the court within 30 days after they have that information.  

The Gygax children deliberately flouted the law when they failed to bring up Gary's most recent will back in 2008.  I don't believe the judge will be at all sympathetic to Luke's case.  The time to bring the most recent will to the court's attention was twelve years ago.  The Gygax children made their bed and now they've got to lay in it.


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## darjr (May 25, 2020)

Hope he gets well, but still not interested.


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## Mistwell (May 25, 2020)

MGibster said:


> I imagine you're correct but Luke's feelings regarding Gail's management of the trust isn't really relevant from a legal perspective.




He's a beneficiary I believe. He has standing to challenge the trustee actions under the trust.



> Wisconsin has a time limit of 18 months for probate to be completed which gives ample time for disputes to be settled, taxes to be paid, and creditors to be notified.  The reason most states have a limit on how long probate should take is so people can take care of their business, get on with their lives, and not worry that ten years from now someone is going to show up to challenge it.




All true, and not what I am referring to.

There is a family trust. Gail Gygax manages that trust, and she is a beneficiary along with, I think, all the children of Gary Gygax including Luke, to some extent (though I have not seen the trust and don't know that first hand).

If the kids of Gary think the trust is not being managed based on the dictates laid down by Gary when he was alive, then the submission of a later will which indicates the wishes of Gary when he was alive concerning the management of his assets after his death can result in a court order forcing the Trustee (Gail) to distribute trust assets differently than she was previously distributing them in her management duties.  The will wouldn't be used to override the old will - it would be used as evidence of the decedent's wishes concerning how he wanted his assets distributed under the trust. 

This can be done at any time. It's not a challenge to the prior will - it's a challenge to the decisions of the trustee under that old will. It's somewhat similar to bringing a new action concerning an old child support case. You can bring an action concerning a settled probate matter if the action is about management of the estate under that probate. In fact, a lot of probate court cases are concerning old probates.

For example (and this example has nothing to do with this particular matter it's just an example of how this can work years later), if in probate in 2005 it's decided a trustee is supposed to distribute money from a trust to pay for a child's education when they reach age 18 (which is 15 years later in 2020), and then when 15 years comes around the trustee refuses to distribute that money because they don't like the college the child chose to attend, the child brings a new action in probate court concerning the old probate to decide the question of whether the Trustee has acted in the interests of the beneficiaries and the desires of the decedent. That would be a fairly standard probate matter.  Probate decisions can be opened many years later if there is a legitimate dispute concerning the decisions of the trustee of a trust.



> This isn't a situation where the most recent will was lost or hidden




Actually we don't know that.



> The Gygax children deliberately flouted the law when they failed to bring up Gary's most recent will back in 2008.




We have no reason to believe they knew about it in 2008, unless you have information I do not have.


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## JohnRTroy (May 25, 2020)

I'm not going to really profess my opinion on this, or talk about private information, but there are certain facts that can be looked up that I did want to point out to clarify things.

The current "Gygax Trust" was not established upon Gary's death, nor was it apparently an inheritance trust.  

Since the founding of Trigee Enterprises, all of Gary's intellectual property was owned by Gail Gygax, NOT by Gary Gygax--Gary was "under contract" to Trigee Enterprises--and about 95% of Gary's output was done as Trigee.  It was an arrangement Gary and Gail agreed upon for various reasons.  So, basically since 1986 or so, all the stuff Gary worked on post TSR was owned by Gail, not Gary.  In short, as far as I know, Gary couldn't even choose to leave any IP assets to his kids unless Gail agreed to it.  In this response, I'm going by what I knew of Trigee from Gary himself, and my years working for him, along with things others have learned--there could be some details in the incorporation docs or elsewhere that might clarify things, so I won't say this with 100% certainty.

Trigee Enterprises was I believe then converted into or owned by the Gail C. Gygax Revocable Trust.  Note that this is not a family trust, and she is listed as the sole recipient of it--I believe this trust was established years after Gary's passing.  Documentation on this can be found at the Trademark Board for the active Gygax trademarks -- all documents say "The Trustees of the GAIL C. GYGAX REVOCABLE TRUST, a Wisconsin trust, the trustees comprising of Gail C. Gygax, a United States Citizen".  So the current trust is, as far as I can tell, not something any of the kids are involved in, nor anything that was established as the estate when passing.  (Could be wrong but I doubt the Trademark board would word it like that if there were other trustees involved).

In terms of the court, I don't believe Gail ever took her will to probate court.  That's probably why there's a dispute now.


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## Shiroiken (May 25, 2020)

The whole Gygax inheritance has been a nightmare from the beginning. The biggest issue I've had with it is that since the kids were involved with the D&D IP from the beginning, it would make sense for it to go to them, and I'm kinda sad that Gary didn't make this a well known desire. The fact that Gail had Gygax magazine shut down, despite it being Luke's last name, shows how nasty this has gotten. The new will may be valid or not (good luck legal system), but it shows yet another level of bitter contention in this "family."


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## Mistwell (May 25, 2020)

JohnRTroy said:


> In terms of the court, I don't believe Gail ever took her will to probate court.  That's probably why there's a dispute now.




OH! Well, that does change things


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## Mistwell (May 25, 2020)

JohnRTroy said:


> I'm not going to really profess my opinion on this, or talk about private information, but there are certain facts that can be looked up that I did want to point out to clarify things.
> 
> The current "Gygax Trust" was not established upon Gary's death, nor was it apparently an inheritance trust.
> 
> ...




Thank you for those clarifications. I feel like I am looking at a very small part of a large picture and stumbling along trying to piece some information together from too little, and this helps.


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## atanakar (May 26, 2020)

JohnRTroy said:


> I'm not going to really profess my opinion on this, or talk about private information, but there are certain facts that can be looked up that I did want to point out to clarify things.
> 
> The current "Gygax Trust" was not established upon Gary's death, nor was it apparently an inheritance trust.
> 
> ...




Thank you for this. Very informative.


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## Alzrius (May 26, 2020)

Bear in mind that we've known for some time that Gary had a more recent will that Gail wasn't honoring. The following excerpt is from that Kotaku article from over a year ago:



> In May 2017, DeSanto’s suit reads, he learned that Gary Gygax had a second will. He wrote it shortly before his death. That will, according to the complaint, merely gives Gail a life estate to some of Gary’s IP—the parts his children couldn’t claim. That would mean that, when Gail dies, DeSanto would no longer have the rights to develop Gygax properties, making their contract worthless.
> 
> Gail agrees that this will exists, but denies that it is valid. She says it was not signed correctly, adding nobody had ever contacted her about the will’s validity before DeSanto.


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## aramis erak (May 27, 2020)

Which presents a very interesting legal conundrum... if Gail knew it existed, there's potential liability. Fraud, perhaps even theft.

Also, there's the issue of the Copyright Recovery Act. If the boys can show Gary's rights revert to them, they can then proceed under the CRA to secure the items she's got rights to by work for hire clauses unless she's continuing to utilize them for commercial purpose. Much of Gary's older non-TSR work would fall to them, plus a few things TSR claimed but only claimed to shut them down (EG: Dangerous Journeys). And they could claim any unpublished TSR items Gary was working on solo (or, with cooperation of the other parties, his joint efforts. Like Gary's AD&D 2E drafts.)

There are a lot of puzzle peices mixed on the table, and only a few frame bits assembled. 

_Rampant speculation_
I suspect Gail had both wills. ANd the newer one was accidentally provided in the lawsuit discovery phase.


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## Ralif Redhammer (May 27, 2020)

Yeah, I was wondering if there'd be any legal action after reading that article when it came out or if the second will would remain just a rumor. That was a pretty big bombshell to drop.

It remains such a shame that Gygax's IP has only dwindled since his death. Castle Zagyg, The Gygaxian Fantasy series, Lejendary Adventures, all out-of-print and inaccessible.



Alzrius said:


> Bear in mind that we've known for some time that Gary had a more recent will that Gail wasn't honoring. The following excerpt is from that Kotaku article from over a year ago:


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## Umbran (May 27, 2020)

aramis erak said:


> Which presents a very interesting legal conundrum... if Gail knew it existed, there's potential liability. Fraud, perhaps even theft.




Onus for presenting a will lies with the person who has possession of it.



> _Rampant speculation_
> I suspect Gail had both wills. ANd the newer one was accidentally provided in the lawsuit discovery phase.




Rampant speculation is not appropriate.  How about you not badmouth people unless you have evidence, hm?


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## Nikosandros (May 27, 2020)

Alzrius said:


> Bear in mind that we've known for some time that Gary had a more recent will that Gail wasn't honoring. The following excerpt is from that Kotaku article from over a year ago:



This is in contradiction with the information that @JohnRTroy has given in this thread. Is the will about EGG intellectual property or not? It's confusing.


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## aramis erak (May 28, 2020)

Nikosandros said:


> This is in contradiction with the information that @JohnRTroy has given in this thread. Is the will about EGG intellectual property or not? It's confusing.



In the US, generally, people have monolithic wills. All the various properties, real, simple, and intellectual, get disposed of in one document, tho' it's not terribly uncommon to alter it with a codicil rather than a whole new will, if there are only  a few significant changes in property. 

It's most likely that both wills specify the disposition of the sum of the physical property, the real property interests, and the intellectual property interests (both ownerships and owed royalties), all in a single document. Which is why two competing wills are a litigation issue - they probably both cover the same properties. Especially since there's clear conflict (and strongly apparent malice, even) between the sides.


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## Nikosandros (May 28, 2020)

My confusion also arose from the fact that, according to the information provided, Gygax's IP was not actually his to dispose of. If it was already owned by Gail before his death, than whatever provisions are either will would be immaterial. Or at least that's what I understood.


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## aramis erak (May 28, 2020)

Nikosandros said:


> My confusion also arose from the fact that, according to the information provided, Gygax's IP was not actually his to dispose of. If it was already owned by Gail before his death, than whatever provisions are either will would be immaterial. Or at least that's what I understood.



Since the Copyright Reclamation law 17 USC Sn.203 (which went into effect in 2013).
Any copyright transferred by an author can be reclaimed if it's been 35 years, the transfer was under US law, and the owner is subject to US law. the notice has to be files between 2 and 10 years prior to termination of transfer. So, shortest window is 25 years, longest is 2 prior to longest date allowed, so 40-2= 38 years
Anything between 35 and 40 years old is subject to reversion back to the original owner or their legitimate heirs. It's quite possible that her interests may be time limited... because the boys, if they're deemed the legitimate heirs, can forcibly recover their father's copyrights from her.

Given that the window for filing is 25 to 38 years from transfer... 2020, that's 1982 to  1995 - that would include Dangerous Journeys, Lejendary Adventures, a bunch of editorials, and a few other bits and bobs. D&D is safe... I think there are some novels that aren't. There might

But the need to prove that they're the rightful heirs to use that act. 

If they can get the new will validated by the courts, they can zipyank those rights away from her, and each year serve her with notice for the just-hitting-the-window IP.

And that's assuming she had no part in concealing the newer will.

Some info on the law: U.S. Copyright Office - Termination of Transfers and Licenses Under 17 U.S.C. 203


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## JohnRTroy (May 28, 2020)

The biggest problem is that so many people are speculating with little knowledge.  All that people (may) know, is that there are two wills in dispute.'

Nobody knows what they say (outside of the affected parties, which applies to further "nobodies")
Nobody knows the condition either of them are in.  Is one notarized and signed by witnesses?  Is one not?  Under what conditions were they created and filed as?
Nobody knows what other laws and rules apply when it comes to Gary's estate, as it is a lot of IP.  I mentioned the Trigee item because I think it gets messier if the corporation itself is involved.
Nobody really knows fully any of the motivations behind the conflicts.  Most people are judging based on limited knowledge, or their own personal projection of what they either think Gary wanted, or what they as fans or consumers might want.
And quite frankly, none of this will really be any of our business.  This is a civil matter, and will be decided by a Judge who will have all the facts as presented and make a decision based on that.  Neither side aired this stuff publicly, it was just pulled out by folks because every court case has at least a few minimal public records.  I'm not sure a civil state case would ever have a transcript available.  So, most likely we'll only know the outcome.  Somebody will be happy, somebody will be sad.  I personally would prefer that we wait and see and give all the Gygaxes some privacy rather than armchair speculate the outcomes--but there is freedom of speech and all that.



aramis erak said:


> Since the Copyright Reclamation law 17 USC Sn.203 (which went into effect in 2013).
> Any copyright transferred by an author can be reclaimed if it's been 35 years, the transfer was under US law, and the owner is subject to US law...




A key point missed is the fact that the law states "In the case of any work *other than a work made for hire*".  


With Trigee, did Gary work under a "work for hire clause" when creating stuff for that?  That would prevent a transfer of copyright under this law.
What about D&D items -- there was stuff copyright by his name, but did he transfer that in his agreement with TSR when he left?  
Complicating those matters involve an agreement Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson made with WoTC around 1999-2000.  From what I had read and understood, WoTC wanted to make sure that they wouldn't be able to declare a termination of copyright or something similar (since there was an older law on the books that applied to pre-1976 copyright dates), so I suspect Gary and Dave gave up all future claims of copyright to any of the work they did at any time before their splits with the company.  So I doubt things like Dangerous Journeys and stuff from the 1980s would be able to be terminated.


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## the Jester (May 28, 2020)

However this plays out, I just hope it someday leads to a published version of Castle Greyhawk as Gygax wrote and ran it.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (May 28, 2020)

the Jester said:


> However this plays out, I just hope it someday leads to a published version of Castle Greyhawk as Gygax wrote and ran it.




I don't think that will ever happen and I think the prime time for Gygax materials has passed.  I had high hopes for the C&C Castle but alas that got pulled.


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## Ralif Redhammer (May 28, 2020)

That's kind-of my feeling as well. D&D is more popular than ever, and sure, there's a ton of nostalgia for Gygax's old D&D work. But the lack of anything more recent in the public eye for years has meant that it's mostly just old gamers like me that care. New D&D fans maybe might be interested in something like a Castle Greyhawk release if you billed it as the original D&D dungeon and had Wizards of the Coast behind it, but the return on investment for Castle Zagyg or Lejendary Adventures  would be significantly less.



Flexor the Mighty! said:


> I don't think that will ever happen and I think the prime time for Gygax materials has passed.  I had high hopes for the C&C Castle but alas that got pulled.


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## MGibster (May 28, 2020)

Ralif Redhammer said:


> That's kind-of my feeling as well. D&D is more popular than ever, and sure, there's a ton of nostalgia for Gygax's old D&D work. But the lack of anything more recent in the public eye for years has meant that it's mostly just old gamers like me that care. New D&D fans maybe might be interested in something like a Castle Greyhawk release if you billed it as the original D&D dungeon and had Wizards of the Coast behind it, but the return on investment for Castle Zagyg or Lejendary Adventures  would be significantly less.




I have a lot of fond memories of earlier AD&D adventures, but, man, I don't have any interest in playing or running Gygaxian dungeons these days.


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## QuentinGeorge (May 28, 2020)

Ralif Redhammer said:


> That's kind-of my feeling as well. D&D is more popular than ever, and sure, there's a ton of nostalgia for Gygax's old D&D work. But the lack of anything more recent in the public eye for years has meant that it's mostly just old gamers like me that care. New D&D fans maybe might be interested in something like a Castle Greyhawk release if you billed it as the original D&D dungeon and had Wizards of the Coast behind it, but the return on investment for Castle Zagyg or Lejendary Adventures  would be significantly less.





I part suspect that Castle Greyhawk may be a motivating factor in a lot of this. This needs the IP owned by WoTC to be successful. And the Gygax with the relationship with WotC is not Gail. It's Luke. I suspect DeSantos realised that the only way the IP was to be successful was for it to be in the hands of Luke (and I believe he actually asked Gail to bring Luke on board, but there's way too much bad blood for that to happen).


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## Ralif Redhammer (May 29, 2020)

I'm fine with doing so at a con, or for a one-shot. Risking a PC I've spent years playing, not so much. With the right DM, maybe.



MGibster said:


> I have a lot of fond memories of earlier AD&D adventures, but, man, I don't have any interest in playing or running Gygaxian dungeons these days.




Seems likely. Luke has been the Gygax face for years now.



QuentinGeorge said:


> I part suspect that Castle Greyhawk may be a motivating factor in a lot of this. This needs the IP owned by WoTC to be successful. And the Gygax with the relationship with WotC is not Gail. It's Luke. I suspect DeSantos realised that the only way the IP was to be successful was for it to be in the hands of Luke (and I believe he actually asked Gail to bring Luke on board, but there's way too much bad blood for that to happen).


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## Maxperson (Jun 28, 2020)

Luke Gygax is one of my Facbook friends and he posted this and made it public to be shared.

"Attention Collector’s. Paul Stormberg confirmed that these items are being auctioned by Gail Gygax. That means that these are very likely from my father’s collection. My siblings recently discovered a Last Will and Testament that appears to be valid and witnessed by Gail and Alex Gygax however it was never filed. We have petitioned to have the Will recognized and probate opened. So the property here if part of my fathers estate could be in question. Paul was informed of this months ago and is still auctioning the items. I find that problematic personally whether it is legal or not."

This would seem to answer some of the questions from earlier in the thread.


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## Mistwell (Jun 28, 2020)

MGibster said:


> This isn't a situation where the most recent will was lost or hidden before being discovered as those who had custody and/or knowledge of Gary's most recent will deliberately withheld it from the court.  In Wisconsin, the person who has custody of the will is required by law to either file it with the court or present it to the personal representative within 30 days of finding out about the death of the testator.  Any person who has reason to believe a will exist and has not been filed is required to inform the court within 30 days after they have that information.




So apparently the answer is that the will was in fact lost or hidden before being discovered some time in the last 18 months.


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## Mistwell (Jun 28, 2020)

Also this from FB from Luke Gygax, "I just got a copy of the Will a few months back and took action to see my fathers will be enacted."


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## MGibster (Jun 28, 2020)

Mistwell said:


> So apparently the answer is that the will was in fact lost or hidden before being discovered some time in the last 18 months.




Sure.  And apparently two witnesses had reason to believe a will existed but was not filed failed to inform the court within 30 days of the death.  It'll be interesting to see how this all pans out.


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## JohnRTroy (Jun 28, 2020)

One thing in that public Facebook post, buried in the comments, is a statement that seems to clarify something I suspected earlier.



> Question from another:  Luke Gygax, If you prevail with the will, does Gail no longer have ownership rights to the D&D show material?
> 
> Answer: that’s not determined yet. The Will leaves life rights of all IP to Gail. IP often includes artwork. Also Gail was witness and executor which may be problematic legally..




So, it looks like regarding the will, based on that statement (which I assume refers to the will Luke wants validated, as there are two filed), regardless of the situation, it's appears that EGG left control of the IP over to Gail, which is the outcome I always predicted.  

So this battle isn't about control over Gary's unpublished work, nor would a court case suddenly give any of the kids the rights to print Gary's out of print work.


----------



## AmerginLiath (Jun 28, 2020)

Apropos of nothing, this feels like an adventure hook. We’re all sitting in the tavern when an old man whispers something to us about the True Will of Gygax, buried deep below Castle Greyhawk...


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## Mistwell (Jul 1, 2020)

News today: Gail Gygax never filed a will when Gary Gygax died. Luke Gygax’s filing is the first will to be probated with the state, apparently. When Gary Gygax died Wisconsin required probate for all estates of $50k or more. It would appear, now that Gail Gygax is auctioning cartoon animation cells from the estate, that the estate was in fact valued over that sum.


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## Ralif Redhammer (Jul 1, 2020)

Wait, she didn't even file the first one? Things are going to get complicated here, I fear. 



Mistwell said:


> News today: Gail Gygax never filed a will when Gary Gygax died.


----------



## aramis erak (Jul 4, 2020)

Ralif Redhammer said:


> Wait, she didn't even file the first one? Things are going to get complicated here, I fear.



Her best defenses would seem to be "plead ignorance" or "provide a later will for validation."

It's important to remember also: The US lacks uniformity of law, AND most states have a default to the wife. 

In some states, there's separate ownership; in others joint.

Note that income and properties in wisconsin gained after marriage are 50/50 split. (It's explained nicely on a divorce site... Dividing Property in Wisconsin )

So, if EGG willed his rights to the boys... that makes them 50% owner of the company. It also makes the claim of "work for hire" potentially invalid, as he's hired himself as default co-owner of the company.

GAH!!! what a royal mess.


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## Mistwell (Jul 5, 2020)

Ralif Redhammer said:


> Wait, she didn't even file the first one? Things are going to get complicated here, I fear.




I am no longer certain there is a "first one"? I think it's possible there is just one will. The one that's being filed now. I think it's possible they've been working off of default rules for no will and under $50K estate all along. And then they found out there was a will, and that it had never been filed.


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## QuentinGeorge (Jul 5, 2020)

Mistwell said:


> I am no longer certain there is a "first one"? I think it's possible there is just one will. The one that's being filed now. I think it's possible they've been working off of default rules for no will and under $50K estate all along. And then they found out there was a will, and that it had never been filed.



Yikes. And Gail also witnessed the will she never filed? Hard to say you weren't aware of it.


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## Eltab (Jul 5, 2020)

aramis erak said:


> GAH!!! what a royal mess.



Gary was consistent that way, it seems.


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## Maxperson (Jul 5, 2020)

QuentinGeorge said:


> Yikes. And Gail also witnessed the will she never filed? Hard to say you weren't aware of it.



If she was aware of it and didn't file it, and it gave rights to the kids that went to her instead, that's bad juju for her.


----------



## Omand (Aug 1, 2020)

So, I know that it is none of my business (or any of ours actually), but I am curious if there have been any further developments here.

I don't usually like soap operas or train wrecks, but I cannot help but be curious about this one.

Cheers


----------



## Alzrius (Aug 1, 2020)

Omand said:


> So, I know that it is none of my business (or any of ours actually), but I am curious if there have been any further developments here.




According to the docket, there was a motion hearing yesterday:



> Off record discussion. Attorney Theodore Nathan Johnson appeared by video means for Beneficiary Gail Carpenter Gygax. Attorney Jennifer M Gorn appeared by video means for Petitioner Lucion Gygax.
> All exhibits to be exchanged by October 30th
> Court Trial set for November 16, 2020 @ 8:30am for 2 days, Pre-Trial set for November 12, 2020 @ 9am
> Witness lists to be exchanged by October 30, 2020


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## Omand (Aug 1, 2020)

Thank you Alzrius.


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## Alzrius (Nov 24, 2020)

So a a few quick updates here:



> 09-23-2020Other papers
> Temporary Restraining Order in effect until further notice by the Court.




There's no listing who the TRO was taken out against.



> 10-27-2020Letters/correspondence
> Letter signed by Atty Jennifer M Gorn requesting to extend events approximately 120 days. *BTC, Request Granted. DR 11/9/20*




For those who don't recall, Jennifer Gorn is the attorney for Luke Gygax.

Additionally, the time to file inventory has been extended to May 1st, 2021, and the time to close estate has been extended to September 1st.

Currently, the pre-trial conference has been scheduled for March 11th, 2021, with the court trial beginning on March 15th.


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## aramis erak (Nov 25, 2020)

If anyone wants to keep up, the case docket is public record, and at Wisconsin Circuit Court Access


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## Umbran (Nov 25, 2020)

This is going to be a long ride.


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## Alzrius (Mar 23, 2021)

So it looks like several changes have been made to the proceedings for the case. According to the current docket:

As of January 1st of this year, Kristine E. Drettwan has taken over from David M. Reddy as the judge overseeing the case. No reason for the judicial transfer has been given.
On February 18th of this year, subpoenas were served to both Alex Gygax (Gary's son with Gail) and Michael Gygax, with whom I'm unfamiliar (and isn't listed as one of the parties involved in the case).
The pre-trial conference will now be held on June 3rd of this year, with the trial itself being held on June 7th-8th.


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## embee (Mar 23, 2021)

Alzrius said:


> So it looks like several changes have been made to the proceedings for the case. According to the current docket:
> 
> As of January 1st of this year, Kristine E. Drettwan has taken over from David M. Reddy as the judge overseeing the case. No reason for the judicial transfer has been given.
> On February 18th of this year, subpoenas were served to both Alex Gygax (Gary's son with Gail) and Michael Gygax, with whom I'm unfamiliar (and isn't listed as one of the parties involved in the case).
> The pre-trial conference will now be held on June 3rd of this year, with the trial itself being held on June 7th-8th.




He may have been reassigned to a different docket. Rotation between types of cases is common to ensure that judges have a full breadth of knowledge. Given that it's at the beginning of a calendar year, that seems likely. 
Subpoenas in civil cases are common just to make sure that witnesses (and parties) actually show. 
PTC is just housekeeping. "How much time are you going to need for witnesses?" "Have you pre-served your exhibits?" "Any chance we can resolve any issues without a trial? If it isn't past Standards and Goals, it could get kicked even further.


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## Ralif Redhammer (Mar 27, 2021)

For what it's worth, in his seminar on the Marmoreal Tomb, Ernie mentioned that they are attempting to regain publication rights for Gary Gygax's IP.


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## Nikosandros (Mar 27, 2021)

Ralif Redhammer said:


> For what it's worth, in his seminar on the Marmoreal Tomb, Ernie mentioned that they are attempting to regain publication rights for Gary Gygax's IP.



I can dream about a Castle Greyhawk joint project between WotC and Gygax's sons for 2024.


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## Lanefan (Mar 27, 2021)

Nikosandros said:


> I can dream about a Castle Greyhawk joint project between WotC and Gygax's sons for 2024.



As long as @Rob Kuntz is on board; he said somewhere in here recently that he still owns something like 40% of it which means not much can really be done without his OK.


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## Rob Kuntz (Mar 27, 2021)

Lanefan said:


> As long as @Rob Kuntz is on board; he said somewhere in here recently that he still owns something like 40% of it which means not much can really be done without his OK.



True.  And Gary's sons have no stake and no part in the Castle and are not involved with Gail on positive terms, besides.  Gail holds Gary's entire Literary Estate and I hold mine; where we cross with the Castle is her sticking point; but yet there are many, many sticking points with her treatment of Gary's Literary Estate.  There are many angles converging here that are not my own, as well, such as the contract between her and Producer Tom DeSanto, the latter who I have communicated with at length about the situation, the Castle, et al.  As I stated up-thread, don't hold your breath on seeing the final true/updated rendition of the Castle in my life time.  It's just the aggregated reality of the past attempts, all of which I have pursued since 1982 and  that I could now write a truly gloomy novel-length story about.


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## Rob Kuntz (Mar 27, 2021)

There remain some un-sourced points here.
I will say only this:  There are four sides in this conundrum:  *Gail's*, the *Gygax Kids*, *Tom DeSanto* and where this stands in relation to the Castle, which has been judged as the most valuable and developable property of the estate, *myself.*  All parties involved are *well-informed* of what the other's points are.  This could all be resolved amicably but one party insists to dictate to the others and in terms that are not consistent with IP rights. legal instruments and good will, enforceable contracts.  Thus a stalemate has ensued that has caused monetary loss to 3 of the 4 parties, which now has been added to the bottom sum and has strained all trust in the matter.


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## Nikosandros (Mar 27, 2021)

Rob Kuntz said:


> There remain some un-sourced points here.
> I will say only this:  There are four sides in this conundrum:  *Gail's*, the *Gygax Kids*, *Tom DeSanto* and where this stands in relation to the Castle, which has been judged as the most valuable and developable property of the estate, *myself.*  All parties involved are *well-informed* of what the other's points are.  This could all be resolved amicably but one party insists to dictate to the others and in terms that are not consistent with IP rights. legal instruments and good will, enforceable contracts.  Thus a stalemate has ensued that has caused monetary loss to 3 of the 4 parties, which now has been added to the bottom sum and has strained all trust in the matter.



Thanks for all the clarifications. I did not choose the word "dream" randomly. Even with an extremely limited knowledge, I'm aware that the chances of it ever happening are basically nil.


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## Alzrius (May 20, 2021)

There was a motion hearing yesterday, which notes the following:



> 10:58 AM Case called. Attorney Jennifer M Gorn in court for Petitioner Lucion Gygax. Petitioner Lucion Gygax appeared by phone means. Attorney Theodore Nathan Johnson in court for Beneficiary Gail Carpenter Gygax.
> 
> Motion to Compel.
> 
> ...


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## Alzrius (May 21, 2021)

Another entry from May 19th is that the court trial has been moved to September 13, 2021 at 08:30 am, with the pre-trial conference being September 2.


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## Nikosandros (May 21, 2021)

Alzrius said:


> There was a motion hearing yesterday, which notes the following:



This seems quite technical. What does that mean?


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## QuentinGeorge (May 22, 2021)

Rob Kuntz said:


> True.  And Gary's sons have no stake and no part in the Castle and are not involved with Gail on positive terms, besides.  Gail holds Gary's entire Literary Estate and I hold mine; where we cross with the Castle is her sticking point; but yet there are many, many sticking points with her treatment of Gary's Literary Estate.  There are many angles converging here that are not my own, as well, such as the contract between her and Producer Tom DeSanto, the latter who I have communicated with at length about the situation, the Castle, et al.  As I stated up-thread, don't hold your breath on seeing the final true/updated rendition of the Castle in my life time.  It's just the aggregated reality of the past attempts, all of which I have pursued since 1982 and  that I could now write a truly gloomy novel-length story about.



I think there's still a connection to the Castle though. The Castle is the most valuable IP. Gail owns some, you own some, and Luke Gygax is the Gygax with the relationship with WoTC, which is the requirement for it to be released as "Greyhawk". I suspect there's an underlying WoTC shadow lurking on the edge...


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## Alzrius (May 22, 2021)

Nikosandros said:


> This seems quite technical. What does that mean?



I'm no lawyer (and if someone else here is, please jump in to correct me), so take this with a grain of salt, but from what I can tell, it's outlining the following developments (leaving aside minor procedural issues such as when witness lists must be submitted, issues of attorney fees, etc.):


Gail Gygax's lawyer filed a motion to compel (typically either testimony and/or documents) from Luke Gygax. After some wrangling, the court granted the motion. Luke now has to produce whatever it is that the motion outlines.
There's a confusing back-and-forth about who's the personal representative (PR), i.e. the executor, of Gary's estate. The judge asks if Luke wants to be removed as the executor. Luke's attorney says that he does, in favor of some lawyers he'd rather handle it. Gail's lawyer objects, saying that Gary's will says she's the executor (and mentioning a lack of assets; I think with regard to Gail not being able to pay for a lawyer to be executor). The judge then asks if Luke is willing to pay the fee for a lawyer to act as the executor; Luke says he'll need to speak to his attorney about that. The judge then orders Luke to stay on as the executor, at which point Gail's lawyer says no executor was appointed to begin with. The judge then elects not to make any decision regarding appointing an executor. Luke's attorney then asks for a trial date to be reserved so an executor can be appointed. The judge briefly checks on when the trial date can be set, subsequently saying they want a neutral party appointed as executor.
The new trial date is subsequently set.


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## JohnRTroy (May 22, 2021)

Nikosandros said:


> This seems quite technical. What does that mean?



Basically, discovery is a process in the legal term that means each side asks questions and the other side must answer those questions.  What happened is the motion to compel means that one side (Luke and his siblings) were not providing answers to the other side's questions in time.  The judge granting a motion to compel means that the judge feels that the plaintiff was not being cooperative enough, as you normally don't have to force a compel motion.

When it comes to the executor, the court is trying to figure it out.  It sounds like Luke's attorney is stepping down.  One of the issues is on both Wills (see my quote from Luke Gygax above in the thread), Gail is executor in both Wills.  While it's a bit hard to follow, I think the court now wants a neutral party to be involved to figure things out.   Assets could mean what is listed on the Will itself, and "lack of assets" could be things like a house or major properties.

Honestly, when it comes to the IP--I don't even think this is about that.  Based on what I've read online from various communications made on social media and elsewhere -- this is about money.  I suspect if the Will is changed, Luke and his siblings will be allowed to get a percentage of anything Gail makes, which is likely relevant in two areas -- if Gail sells old collectables they could get some of that money, or maybe they want some of the money from the DeSanto agreement or anything if DeSanto is successful in doing something with the property.  I highly doubt control of the actual IP will change at all.


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## Maxperson (May 22, 2021)

JohnRTroy said:


> Honestly, when it comes to the IP--I don't even think this is about that.  Based on what I've read online from various communications made on social media and elsewhere -- this is about money.  I suspect if the Will is changed, Luke and his siblings will be allowed to get a percentage of anything Gail makes, which is likely relevant in two areas -- if Gail sells old collectables they could get some of that money, or maybe they want some of the money from the DeSanto agreement or anything if DeSanto is successful in doing something with the property.  I highly doubt control of the actual IP will change at all.



According to Luke, Gail knew about this will and never filed it.  The kids only found out about it recently.  If that is true, the kids could also be entitled to a portion of money that she made from the time Gary died until this is issue resolved.


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## Rob Kuntz (May 22, 2021)

QuentinGeorge said:


> I think there's still a connection to the Castle though. The Castle is the most valuable IP. Gail owns some, you own some, and Luke Gygax is the Gygax with the relationship with WoTC, which is the requirement for it to be released as "Greyhawk". I suspect there's an underlying WoTC shadow lurking on the edge...



This may be.  But the  underlying truth is that this is a struggle to see who controls the estate and, secondly, who shares in its profits and manages it.


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## Alzrius (Aug 3, 2021)

Looks like the trial date has been pushed back again. From the motion hearing on July 28th:



> 09:58 AM Case called. Attorney Jennifer M Gorn in court for Petitioner Lucion Gygax. Attorney Theodore Nathan Johnson in court for Beneficiary Gail Carpenter Gygax. Petitioner Lucion Gygax appeared by phone means.
> 
> Motion to appoint a PR.
> 
> ...




So the highlights here are:

The personal representative (i.e. executor) for Gary's estate will - albeit only with "limited powers" - be an attorney referred to only as Koch, who was mentioned as a possible personal representative by Luke's attorney (Jennifer Gorn) at the previous hearing on May 19th (to which Gail's attorney objected).
The costs for Koch's acting as the representative will apparently come out of Luke's pocket, but the door is open to him potentially being reimbursed for it (though I'm not sure who'd be reimbursing him).
Gail's attorney (Theodore Johnson) wants Koch to be involved in the depositions. How so, and whether that request has been/will be granted, aren't clear.
After asking if Koch was familiar with the timeline of the case (and receiving answers from both Luke and Gail's attorneys), the court throws out the previous schedule for the trial. A conference to determine the new schedule will take place next month, on September 2nd.


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## Committed Hero (Aug 4, 2021)

I just like the name of the stenographer.


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## Alzrius (Sep 21, 2021)

Just a minor set of updates here. There were several notifications regarding the formal appointment of Steven A. Koch as the personal representative (i.e. executor) of Gary's estate. The substance of the scheduling conference for the new trial is as follows:



> 09:10 AM Case called. Attorney Steven A. Koch in court. Attorney Jennifer M Gorn appeared by phone means for Petitioner Lucion Gygax. Petitioner Lucion Gygax appeared by phone means. Attorney Theodore Nathan Johnson appeared by phone means for Beneficiary Gail Carpenter Gygax. Beneficiary Ernest Gary Gygax appeared by phone means.
> 
> Atty Koch submitted a letter yesterday of the progress.
> 
> ...




Overall, there's very little to show for this:


Steven A. Koch, the new personal representative for Gary's estate, has made "some progress," which the court is pleased with.
Jennifer Gorn, Luke's attorney, mentions an "issue" with regard to the IRS. The court subsequently grants her proposal for Koch to speak with the IRS in that regard. Theodore Johnson, Gail's attorney, reminds Gorn to keep him and the court in the loop with any subsequent IRS developments.
A hearing to update the court on the status (of the issue with the IRS, presumably) is set for November 11th.


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## Lanefan (Sep 23, 2021)

Alzrius said:


> The costs for Koch's acting as the representative will apparently come out of Luke's pocket, but the door is open to him potentially being reimbursed for it (though I'm not sure who'd be reimbursing him).





Alzrius said:


> Just a minor set of updates here. There were several notifications regarding the formal appointment of Steven A. Koch as the personal representative (i.e. executor) of Gary's estate.



If Koch is the executor then any money Luke is paying Koch now (for this purpose) could in theory be claimed back later from the estate itself as a cost of discharging the will, depending how things are set up in the will and-or what the rules are in (Wisconsin?) regarding such things. (I'm acting as executor of a will right now thus am getting lots of on-the-fly lessons on this stuff)


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## Alzrius (Nov 14, 2021)

Another relatively modest update here, with one notable exception: a possible agreement is now being discussed by each party's attorneys. Here's the details from the November 11th status conference:



> 10:32 AM Case called. Attorney Jennifer M Gorn in court for Petitioner Lucion Gygax. Attorney Theodore Nathan Johnson in court for Beneficiary Gail Carpenter Gygax. Attorney Steven A. Koch in court as personal representative.
> 
> Court questions movement with communication with the IRS.
> 
> ...




The gist of this is as follows: Steven Koch, who has been assigned as the personal representative (i.e. executor) of Gary's estate, has been in contact with the IRS about unspecified topics, apparently needing more time to continue doing so. Meanwhile, Jennifer Gorn (Luke's attorney) mentions that a possible deal is being discussed between the parties, with Theodore Johnson (Gail's attorney) being hopeful that it can be worked out in the next thirty days. The court subsequently sets another status conference for January 6th.


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## Alzrius (Jan 7, 2022)

A very small update as of yesterday's status conference. While it kicks the can a little further down the road, it suggests that a settlement _might_ be within reach:



> 09:40 AM Case called. Attorney Jennifer M Gorn appeared by phone means for Petitioner Lucion Gygax. Attorney Theodore Nathan Johnson appeared by phone means for Beneficiary Gail Carpenter Gygax. Attorney Steven A. Koch appeared by phone means as personal representative.
> 
> Court questions status of case.
> 
> ...


----------



## DarkCrisis (Jan 7, 2022)

So, what's Gails issue with Garys stuff?  Why wont she say, sale the Greyhawk Castle stuff or allow its use to be sold etc?  Why is she hording everything except what she chooses to auction?

Seems pretty counter to Gary who wanted people to play games and not horde them like a dragon.


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## Umbran (Jan 7, 2022)

DarkCrisis said:


> So, what's Gails issue with Garys stuff?  Why wont she say, sale the Greyhawk Castle stuff or allow its use to be sold etc?  Why is she hording everything except what she chooses to auction?
> 
> Seems pretty counter to Gary who wanted people to play games and not horde them like a dragon.




I don't think you accurately describe what's going on.


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## DarkCrisis (Jan 7, 2022)

Umbran said:


> I don't think you accurately describe what's going on.



Hence why I’m asking


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## Zardnaar (Jan 7, 2022)

DarkCrisis said:


> So, what's Gails issue with Garys stuff?  Why wont she say, sale the Greyhawk Castle stuff or allow its use to be sold etc?  Why is she hording everything except what she chooses to auction?
> 
> Seems pretty counter to Gary who wanted people to play games and not horde them like a dragon.




 Up to her she could set it on fire. 

 I highly doubt there's actually that much and even less in a state that could be published.


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## darjr (Jan 7, 2022)

Zardnaar said:


> Up to her she could set it on fire.
> 
> I highly doubt there's actually that much and even less in a state that could be published.



I would have loved a decent treatment though. 

Maybe not so much as an adventure or RPG book.

More like a history piece like the Art and Arcana book or one of Petersons other history works or the Judges Guild volumes from Goodman Games.


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## Zardnaar (Jan 7, 2022)

darjr said:


> I would have loved a decent treatment though.
> 
> Maybe not so much as an adventure or RPG book.
> 
> More like a history piece like the Art and Arcana book or one of Petersons other history works or the Judges Guild volumes from Goodman Games.




 Yeah even seeing old notes or whatever. Theresy not be that much idk.


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## Alzrius (Jan 7, 2022)

Zardnaar said:


> Up to her she could set it on fire.
> 
> I highly doubt there's actually that much and even less in a state that could be published.



I wager that you'd be surprised.


----------



## Zardnaar (Jan 7, 2022)

Alzrius said:


> I wager that you'd be surprised.




 Cool. Still up to Gail what she wants to do with it.


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## Maxperson (Jan 7, 2022)

Zardnaar said:


> Cool. Still up to Gail what she wants to do with it.



For now.  That might be changing.  Further, they said that they wished she would do something useful with it and not just sit on it, not that it wasn't up to her.


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## Jd Smith1 (Jan 8, 2022)

DarkCrisis said:


> So, what's Gails issue with Garys stuff?  Why wont she say, sale the Greyhawk Castle stuff or allow its use to be sold etc?  Why is she hording everything except what she chooses to auction?
> 
> Seems pretty counter to Gary who wanted people to play games and not horde them like a dragon.




It's not 'Gary's stuff'. It is Gail's 'stuff'. She can do with it as she pleases. Perhaps she's already destroyed it. Perhaps she's waiting to see what the market will bear.

Or maybe she just wants to move on with her life.


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## Omand (Jan 8, 2022)

Jd Smith1 said:


> It's not 'Gary's stuff'. It is Gail's 'stuff'. She can do with it as she pleases. Perhaps she's already destroyed it. Perhaps she's waiting to see what the market will bear.
> 
> Or maybe she just wants to move on with her life.



Is it though?

I am not a lawyer, and not as well-versed as some who have been following this and have posted in this thread.  But from what I have been able to gather, there s a real question about who owns what from Gary's Estate.  Yes, Gail has claimed to be the 100% beneficiary, but Luke challenged that based upon questions over the legitimacy of the will.

At least, that is what I have been able to gather.

If Gail is not the 100% beneficiary, then it is not necessarily Gail's stuff.

Cheers


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## Zardnaar (Jan 8, 2022)

Omand said:


> Is it though?
> 
> I am not a lawyer, and not as well-versed as some who have been following this and have posted in this thread.  But from what I have been able to gather, there s a real question about who owns what from Gary's Estate.  Yes, Gail has claimed to be the 100% beneficiary, but Luke challenged that based upon questions over the legitimacy of the will.
> 
> ...




 It is until the court decides otherwise.


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## Omand (Jan 8, 2022)

Zardnaar said:


> It is until the court decides otherwise.



Is it though?

Again, not a lawyer. but if there is a dispute over the disposition of an estate it is my general understanding that the contents of the estate remain in the estate, they do not go or belong to any of the possible claimants.  They remain in the estate until probate or whatever local legal requirement applies is fulfilled and then are distributed and become property of the appropriate heirs/recipients.

I will fully admit, however, that this is a very complex case based upon what I have read here.  So, my interpretation and knowledge may well be off.  Being Canadian, I am also not familiar with US law.

Cheers


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## Maxperson (Jan 8, 2022)

Omand said:


> Is it though?
> 
> I am not a lawyer, and not as well-versed as some who have been following this and have posted in this thread.  But from what I have been able to gather, there s a real question about who owns what from Gary's Estate.  Yes, Gail has claimed to be the 100% beneficiary, but Luke challenged that based upon questions over the legitimacy of the will.
> 
> ...



It is until it isn't.  There are negotiations in place and the case will probably settle, but until that happens(and maybe after) the stuff is hers.


----------



## Umbran (Jan 8, 2022)

Omand said:


> Is it though?
> 
> Again, not a lawyer. but if there is a dispute over the disposition of an estate it is my general understanding that the contents of the estate remain in the estate, they do not go or belong to any of the possible claimants.




This dispute is _recent_.  If I recall correctly, she's had clear title to the rights for something like a decade.


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## Zardnaar (Jan 8, 2022)

Maxperson said:


> It is until it isn't.  There are negotiations in place and the case will probably settle, but until that happens(and maybe after) the stuff is hers.




 That and the estate would have been paid out years ago.


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## Omand (Jan 8, 2022)

Again, I concede my lack of US legal knowledge, but reading all of the latest summaries, it seems to me the Estate is still intact.

At least in a legal sense.

That is why there are *three* attorneys involved.  One for Gail, one for Luke and one for the Estate.

@Alzrius in his summaries has referred to the Estate existing multiple times, and that part of the early proceedings were about Gail disputing a separate lawyer being appointed by the court for the Estate, as she did not have the money to pay for said lawyer.

Not trying to be disruptive here, but it seems to me that those saying Gail could burn all of Gary's manuscripts right now since she owns them (pending the outcome of this case) are jumping the gun a bit.  I highly suspect the court would take a dim view of such action.

I will go back to lurking now and we will eventually see how this turns out.

Cheers


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## Jd Smith1 (Jan 8, 2022)

Omand said:


> Again, I concede my lack of US legal knowledge, but reading all of the latest summaries, it seems to me the Estate is still intact.



The estate is not intact. It has been probated, which means that it has been transformed from the estate of a deceased person to being the private property of a living person (Gail).

So no, it is not intact. As Zard noted, until a court rules otherwise, it is over. And given the amount of time that has passed, the odds of a court re-opening the matter are very slim to none.


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## MNblockhead (Jan 8, 2022)

Well, she couldn't legally just burn it as it is evidence in an ongoing litigation. That would be spoliation of evidence and would--at a minimum--result in an adverse inference sanction.


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## Deset Gled (Jan 8, 2022)

MNblockhead said:


> Well, she couldn't legally just burn it as it is evidence in an ongoing litigation. That would be spoliation of evidence and would--at a minimum--result in an adverse inference sanction.




A sizeable chunk of the estate is intellectual property rights. Kinda hard to light intangible objects on fire.  I guess David Benioff and DB Weiss managed to do it, though.


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## Nikosandros (Jan 8, 2022)

Jd Smith1 said:


> It's not 'Gary's stuff'. It is Gail's 'stuff'. She can do with it as she pleases. Perhaps she's already destroyed it. Perhaps she's waiting to see what the market will bear.
> 
> Or maybe she just wants to move on with her life.



If you follow the link in Alzrius post above, you'll see that it hasn't been destroyed and the intention of eventually publishing the material is there.


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## Jd Smith1 (Jan 8, 2022)

MNblockhead said:


> Well, she couldn't legally just burn it as it is evidence in an ongoing litigation. That would be spoliation of evidence and would--at a minimum--result in an adverse inference sanction.



In a criminal matter, you are right. But this is a civil matter, and until a court rules that its ownership is in question, it is her property.


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## Jd Smith1 (Jan 8, 2022)

Nikosandros said:


> If you follow the link in Alzrius post above, you'll see that it hasn't been destroyed and the intention of eventually publishing the material is there.








I'm aware. I was pointing out her options, not her intent.


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## Jd Smith1 (Jan 8, 2022)

Deset Gled said:


> A sizeable chunk of the estate is intellectual property rights. Kinda hard to light intangible objects on fire.  I guess David Benioff and DB Weiss managed to do it, though.



 Terry Prachett left instructions to the executor of his will that anything he was working on at the time of his death be destroyed. And they were. I don't believe it was by fire, but they certainly ceased to exist. And he earned far more than Gygax ever dreamed of.


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## Nikosandros (Jan 8, 2022)

EDIT: Nevermind


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## Deset Gled (Jan 8, 2022)

Jd Smith1 said:


> Terry Prachett left instructions to the executor of his will that anything he was working on at the time of his death be destroyed. And they were. I don't believe it was by fire, but they certainly ceased to exist. And he earned far more than Gygax ever dreamed of.




That's not what "intellectual property rights" means.


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## Jd Smith1 (Jan 8, 2022)

Deset Gled said:


> That's not what "intellectual property rights" means.



It does in the USA. He exercised his control over his own IP via the executor of his will.


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## Umbran (Jan 8, 2022)

MNblockhead said:


> Well, she couldn't legally just burn it as it is evidence in an ongoing litigation.




I expect that's an incorrect classification. The materials of the estate would be assets, not evidence - the assets don't _indicate_ anything, so they are not evidence of anything.


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## Umbran (Jan 8, 2022)

Deset Gled said:


> That's not what "intellectual property rights" means.




The hard drive containing Terry Pratchett's unfinished work were run over by a steam roller at the opening of an exhibit on the man's works, at his explicit request.  That IP is gone from the world.









						Terry Pratchett's unfinished novels destroyed by steamroller
					

Unpublished works are lost for ever with crushing of computer hard drive – as the late fantasy novelist had instructed




					www.theguardian.com
				






Jd Smith1 said:


> And he earned far more than Gygax ever dreamed of.




How much he earned really doesn't enter into it.


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## Deset Gled (Jan 8, 2022)

Jd Smith1 said:


> It does in the USA. He exercised his control over his own IP via the executor of his will.




No, intellectual property rights refers to things like copyrights, trademarks, and ideas. For Pratchett, his IP would be his library of published works, including residual payments, adaptation rights, etc. For the current case of EGG, it most importantly refers to things like Greyhawk and movie rights that Gail had messy licensing issues with. 

Also, Pratchett was not from the USA.


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## Jd Smith1 (Jan 8, 2022)

Deset Gled said:


> No, intellectual property rights refers to things like copyrights, trademarks, and ideas. For Pratchett, his IP would be his library of published works, including residual payments, adaptation rights, etc. For the current case of EGG, it most importantly refers to things like Greyhawk and movie rights that Gail had messy licensing issues with.
> 
> Also, Pratchett was not from the USA.



I am aware of what IP are; I hold numerous IP myself. But unfinished or unpublished work is also legally protected as intellectual property. And the key point is that at the heart of it, IP are simply property, suitable to be disposed of as the owner wishes. 

Gygax was in the USA.


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## Alzrius (Mar 5, 2022)

And as of the status conference two days ago, things are back to square one:



> 8:33 AM Case called. Attorney Joseph A Kromholz appeared by phone for Lucion Gygax, Attorney Jennifer M Gorn appeared by phone for Lucion Gygax, Attorney Theodore Nathan Johnson appeared by phone for Gail Carpenter Gygax, Attorney Steven A. Koch appeared by phone as personal representative.
> 
> Court questions if Atty Kromholz is substituting or working with Atty Gorn.
> 
> ...




The big news here is that the settlement talks apparently collapsed, and so this is now going to trial, set for September 12th. That will push this past two years from when the case was originally filed.

More minor are the developments that Luke has apparently retained a second attorney, one Joseph Kromholz, and the clarification that there are no limitations on the domiciliary letters (which, if I'm reading that right, are the legal authorization for someone to act as an estate's personal representative, i.e. executor) issued to Steven Koch, who is currently handling Gary's estate (compare this to the "limited powers" that were referenced back when the court said they'd appoint a personal representative back in August).


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## Alzrius (Jun 5, 2022)

A minor update: on May 5th, the docket notes that Judge Phillip A. Koss will be the judge assigned to this case as of August 1st, 2022. No reason was given for the change.

This is the second time that the judge overseeing the case has changed; prior to this, the judge was Kristine E. Drettwan, who took over the case as of January 1st, 2021, from Judge David M. Reddy.


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## gamerprinter (Jun 5, 2022)

Interesting. My only connection to Gygax magazine, back when I ran my printing company (which closed 7 years ago), Luke Gygax emailed me asking for me to offer a bid for creating a box edition with 2 each, 48 page softcover books. I got him a price for 5,000 and 10,000 units. He never did the job he was having me bid on, but as a trade for the effort I made, Luke offered 2 full page ads in Gygax magazine at no cost to me. I was running my Kaidan setting of Japanese Horror (PFRPG) GM's Guide Kickstarter at the time, so I put an ad for that, and one for my Gamer Printshop publishing company and services. It was in the 2nd issue of Gygax magazine. Luke hadn't sold all the ad space for it, hence why he could give me some. I appreciate Luke for that. Otherwise, I have no connection to any of the Gygax legacy as it's been playing out the last few years...

I did meet Gary at Gencon 07, quite accidentally. I was working at a vendor's booth, and snuck outside for a cigarette. Not being able to find my lighter, a zippo flared in front of me, I lit my cigarette. Then looked at the bearded fellow, dropped my eyes to his name tag, and nearly fell off the steps! We chatted for 10 minutes, then he took off on a handicap scooter to his lunch date, and that's the only time I met him.


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## Bill Zebub (Jun 7, 2022)

MGibster said:


> as well as the appointment of Lucien as the personal representative (I think that's the executor of the will).




Either that or it’s the Lucien who leads the werewolves in their rebellion against the vampires. Which would make sense, really.


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## darjr (Jun 7, 2022)

I do wish Gygax magazine was still a going concern.


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## Marc Radle (Jun 7, 2022)

Agreed, I had high hopes that Gygax magazine would become a nice stand in for Dragon.

I even had an article in the premier issue


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## Alzrius (Sep 9, 2022)

After several filings (of affidavits, motions, and other papers) made in mid-August, it's looking like the court trial might not happen (I think) as previously scheduled. 

From what I can tell, having read the entries over several times now, it looks like Luke Gygax had his attorney file a motion for summary judgment (i.e. having the court make a ruling without going to trial) on August 12th, along with a motion to compel (presumably directed at Gail Gygax, though it doesn't specify what action they're asking the court to compel). Luke himself files an affidavit in support of his motion on August 15th.

Subsequently, the following takes place on September 8th:



> 9:08am Case not called on the record
> 
> Attorney Joseph A Kromholz appeared by phone for Lucion Gygax.
> Attorney Jennifer M Gorn appeared by phone for Lucion Gygax.
> ...




Presuming I'm reading this right (and if any attorneys out there think I'm not, please chime in!) it sounds like the following has happened:

Rather than going to trial, the court is going to wait until mid-October for Gail's attorney to file a response to Luke's motion to compel, with subsequent responses due by October 28th. Subsequently, on November 22nd, there'll be a hearing with regard to the motion for summary judgment (and possibly other motions as well). Meanwhile, Steven Koch requested more time to file an inventory of Gary Gygax's estate, and the court granted him until the end of 2022 to do so.

With no mention made of the previously-scheduled trial, it seems unlikely that it will go forward as of September 12th.


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## Mannahnin (Sep 13, 2022)

Thanks for the update.  Your summary sounds highly plausible to my amateur read.


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## Alzrius (Sep 13, 2022)

Alzrius said:


> With no mention made of the previously-scheduled trial, it seems unlikely that it will go forward as of September 12th.



Confirming this, a look at the court record today shows that the September 8th conference is still the most recent activity in this case.


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## Alzrius (Oct 13, 2022)

A small but interesting update, from an "affidavit of mailing" entry on September 29th:



> Paul Stormberg was provided with Notice of Intent to Obtain a Commission to Take the Deposition of Paul Stromberg by mail on 9/28/2022.




This is, to my knowledge, the first time that Paul Stormberg has been mentioned in the course of these proceedings. It's perhaps surprising that he wasn't brought in sooner, as he apparently audited the full scope of Gary's estate, posting an "ask me anything" thread regarding its contents over on reddit a few years back.


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## Ralif Redhammer (Oct 13, 2022)

Reading that old Reddit thread, man. It makes me sad to see all the plans and hopes that Stormberg and others had. And four years later, none of them have come to pass.



Alzrius said:


> This is, to my knowledge, the first time that Paul Stormberg has been mentioned in the course of these proceedings. It's perhaps surprising that he wasn't brought in sooner, as he apparently audited the full scope of Gary estate, posting an "ask me anything" thread regarding its contents over on reddit a few years back.


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## Alzrius (Nov 27, 2022)

So the motion hearing on November 22nd happened, with the details being as follows:



> 9:00am Court in session
> 
> Petitioner Lucion Gygax appeared by phone.
> Attorney Joseph A Kromholz in court for Lucion Gygax.
> ...




So from what I can parse (and if any attorneys here want to offer some insights, corrections, or clarifications, please chime in!), the following happened:

Luke's request for summary judgment, i.e. for the court to make a ruling in favor of one party or the other without needing to go to trial, was rejected.
Steven Koch makes a motion to compel, i.e. to make someone provide testimony and/or documents, with the record not saying whom he's compelling. My guess is that, since he's been assigned to act as the personal representative of Gary's estate, his motion is directed against Gail, but that's speculation on my part.
The court grants Koch's motion to compel, along with another motion to compel which Jennifer Gorn (one of Luke's attorneys) filed back in August. Again, no specifications as to whom she was compelling, or for what, though her working for Luke suggests that it was against Gail.
Koch specifies that he wants answers to questions (presumably as part of his motion) within thirty days, and the court agrees, noting that failure to comply with the motion could result in "findings of being not-credible."
Jennifer Gorn then brings up the issue of who's paying Steven Koch's fees, and asks that he be granted full personal representative (i.e. executor) rights to Gary's estate. Theodore Johnson, Gail's attorney, objects to that, and the court elects not to rule on the matter.
A new trial date is set, with the trial now being scheduled to take place from April 19th-21st.
A firm is appointed to conduct mediation through February 17th, with the fees for doing so being split between the two parties (i.e. Luke and Gail).


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