# Worst series ending concepts



## fett527 (Nov 24, 2005)

Came up in the LOST thread.  What was the worst ending concept for a series?

I'd go with St. Elsewhere.  It ends up the whole show was the brainchild of some genius kid staring at the hospital in a snowglobe.  Anything worse?


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## your father is (Nov 24, 2005)

The ending of _Star Trek: Enterprise_ is the worst for me.


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## fett527 (Nov 24, 2005)

your father is said:
			
		

> The ending of _Star Trek: Enterprise_ is the worst for me.



A short synopsis wouldbe appreciated.


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## Cutter XXIII (Nov 24, 2005)

Ditto. That episode actually made me angry.


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Nov 24, 2005)

> I'd go with St. Elsewhere. It ends up the whole show was the brainchild of some genius kid staring at the hospital in a snowglobe.




Whoa whoa whoa there, monkeyboy.  St. Elsewhere's ending, while lame in and of itself, gets a free pass from me for collapsing the ENTIRE TV UNIVERSE under it's own cosmological/ontological baggage.  You gotta love it just for that.

I'm gonna go with Millennium.  Three seasons of soul-numbing horror, and he just drives off into the sunset with his daughter?  Even lamer was the reprise of Millennium in the form of that X-Files ep where they brought Frank back, and the Millennium Group's master plan involved a bunch of zombies or something.  So undignified.


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## Dark Jezter (Nov 24, 2005)

Final episode of Seinfeld sucked.  I hate clip shows.

I also didn't care much for the final episode of M*A*S*H, but that whole series took a big downhill slide after Alan Alda took creative control.


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## Viking Bastard (Nov 24, 2005)

I loved Seinfeld's ending myself.

It was so... deserved.


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Nov 24, 2005)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Final episode of Seinfeld sucked. I hate clip shows.




Uh, you did notice the whole like hour-long episode *after* the clip show, right?  Not that it was great either, but still.


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## Crothian (Nov 24, 2005)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Final episode of Seinfeld sucked.  I hate clip shows.
> 
> I also didn't care much for the final episode of M*A*S*H, but that whole series took a big downhill slide after Alan Alda took creative control.




ACtually, it improved greatly once he got it


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## Nightfall (Nov 24, 2005)

*agreed that the X-Files meeting Millenium ending was a pretty sucky way to conclude the show*

At least with the Lone Gunmen, X-files gave the boys a good send off.


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## Villano (Nov 24, 2005)

X-Files.  

M.A.N.T.I.S. - Blew up himself (and his girlfriend) in order to kill an invisible dinosaur.

Dallas - My mom used to watch this show when I was a kid.  I taped the final episode for her and watched it out of curiosity.  It ends with an "It's A Wonderful Life" take off where J.R. is shown (by Joel Grey) that the world would have been a better place if he was dead.  To make things even dumber, it turns out Grey is the Devil.

Highlander - Speaking of bad "It's A Wonderful Life" endings...


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## wingsandsword (Nov 24, 2005)

I actually liked the last episode of Seinfeld, all those jerks getting thrown in prison.  I normally never watched the show because every one of them was a reprehensible person and I found it boring to watch them, but they actually got their comeuppance in the end with a finale devoted to pointing out what terrible people they were.

Star Trek: Enterprise had a finale that was actually an insult to fans.  The entire episode is told as a Next Generation episode featuring Riker and Troi, as Riker plays a historic holodeck file reenacting the last mission of the Enterprise NX-01 as a subplot to the TNG episode "The Pegasus", set 10 years after the main body of the series, we see a main character die a meaningless death, and we get a glimpse of the signing of the charter of the Federation itself (the day NX-01 was decommissioned, thus it was never a Federation Starship so Enterprise-D can be the fifth Federation Starship Enterprise), but just as Archer is about to give a speech that Riker and Troi have talked about being incredibly historic (they had to memorize it in grade school, sort of the Federation version of the Gettysburg Address), it fades out.

The MASH finale was very preachy to be sure, but Alan Alda's original concept was _*much*_ worse, to have a normal episode, but at the end you hear the Director say "Cut" and stagehands appear and start carrying everything away and taking the sets apart, and Alda breaks character and the 4th wall to give an anti-war speech directly to the audience.  The network scoffed at this one and we got an end to the war at least.  Personally, I prefer MASH before it became the "Alan Alda Propaganda Show".

I didn't care for the end of X-Files, with Mulder being sentenced to death by a secret military court and ending up as a fugitive on the run.

I missed the last episode of M.A.N.T.I.S., sounds like I should be glad I did.


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## Nightfall (Nov 24, 2005)

Same here, M.A.N.T.I.S got a little goofy with that whole "Men in Black from another galaxy" thing.

For Highlander the TV show, they didn't actually END it so much as it was the last one they could run, much like what happened with Farscape.


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## Crothian (Nov 24, 2005)

I liked the end of Highlander, any way they bring back Fitz is a plus in mky book.


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## Nightfall (Nov 24, 2005)

Agreed, Fitz was, unquestionably, one of the best characters on that show.


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## mojo1701 (Nov 24, 2005)

I dunno. I thought the ending of _Enterprise_ was an interesting concept, but only if pulled off brilliantly.


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## Crothian (Nov 24, 2005)

Friends was pretty bad.  Night Coiurt has horrid.


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## Dark Jezter (Nov 24, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> The MASH finale was very preachy to be sure, but Alan Alda's original concept was _*much*_ worse, to have a normal episode, but at the end you hear the Director say "Cut" and stagehands appear and start carrying everything away and taking the sets apart, and Alda breaks character and the 4th wall to give an anti-war speech directly to the audience.  The network scoffed at this one and we got an end to the war at least.  Personally, I prefer MASH before it became the "Alan Alda Propaganda Show".




You aren't the only one.  Even Peter Griffin from Family Guy once commented that he hated MASH after "Alan Alda took control behind the camera and the show got all depressing and preachy."


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## Nightfall (Nov 24, 2005)

Like Peter Griffin has any room to talk.   He got his comeback thanks to CN. 

Crothy,

I forgot how Night Court ended.


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## Templetroll (Nov 24, 2005)

fett527 said:
			
		

> Came up in the LOST thread.  What was the worst ending concept for a series?
> 
> I'd go with St. Elsewhere.  It ends up the whole show was the brainchild of some genius kid staring at the hospital in a snowglobe.  Anything worse?





He was autistic and the episode was great!



			
				epguides.com said:
			
		

> Fiscus' last E.R. patient is a lady from the opera... But is it really over? The jaw-dropping climax culminates in a blue-collared dad placing his young autistic son Tommy Westphall's miniature St. Eligius snow globe on the living room TV set, having summoned him to dinner. "St. Elsewhere's" entire six-year saga had all been a figment of little Tommy's imagination! Finally, the poor MTM kitten lay wavering on a respirator during the final slew of end credits; after which, he flat lines and expires.




Even the end credit was an inside joke.  It was a great show and went out with a great twist that tied in all the other TV references during the series.


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## wingsandsword (Nov 24, 2005)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> I forgot how Night Court ended.



The whole gang broke up as their lives went in different directions, Christine was elected to Congress as a Represenative, Mac quit his job as a clerk to go to Film School, Harry was offered a position as a professor at a law school (but after much debate turns it down, at least for now, to stay a judge), and Bull was abducted by aliens (the last shot was of bull and two diminutive little guys who were aliens in disguise beaming out).  I don't recall what happened to Dan or Roz, but I remember that each of the characters got something new in their life and the gang all went their own ways, generally on to something better (or at least the chance to do something more when they're ready).


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## Wycen (Nov 24, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> The whole gang broke up as their lives went in different directions, Christine was elected to Congress as a Represenative, Mac quit his job as a clerk to go to Film School, Harry was offered a position as a professor at a law school (but after much debate turns it down, at least for now, to stay a judge), and Bull was abducted by aliens (the last shot was of bull and two diminutive little guys who were aliens in disguise beaming out).  I don't recall what happened to Dan or Roz, but I remember that each of the characters got something new in their life and the gang all went their own ways, generally on to something better (or at least the chance to do something more when they're ready).




Dan was the sex addict?  Didn't he get his own spin off show?


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## wingsandsword (Nov 24, 2005)

Wycen said:
			
		

> Dan was the sex addict?  Didn't he get his own spin off show?



No, John Larroquette got a show of his own right afterwards, "The John Larroquette Show" which ran for 3 seasons, where he played a recovering alcoholic who was manager of a bus station in New Orleans.  The character he played was very similar in personality and behavior to Dan Fielding (as well as being a New Orleans native like Fielding, and Larroquette himself), and he tried for a "Night Court" feel with his show, but it never quite became as popular.

He meant his character on his show to be semi-autobiographical since he is a recovering alcoholic from New Orleans himself, and apparently the very dark tone of his show (the motto of his show was a sign over his character's office "This is a Dark Ride") was at his insistence.


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## trancejeremy (Nov 24, 2005)

IIRC, in Night Court, Dan chased after Christine, hoping to eventually win her over. Harry got like a dozen different offers of things to do, including touring with Mel Torme. But he stayed a judge. 

I thought Dan Laroquette's character on his own show was quite different. Sarcastic and troubled, yes, but much less lecherous and much much nicer.


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## Wormwood (Nov 24, 2005)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> Uh, you did notice the whole like hour-long episode *after* the clip show, right?  Not that it was great either, but still.




The finale *was* chock full O' clips. So much so that the pejorative "clip show" is well deserved.

And I'm sorry to threadjack, but the two BEST series finales would have to be the final "Newhart" and the film "Serenity".


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## TwistedBishop (Nov 24, 2005)

The Seinfeld finale was basically a clip show, it just lacked the actual flashbacks.  We saw the classic characters, doing their classic bits, nothing new.  

The fact this was the finale aired after they did a whole hour of clips before it only compounded the error.

Edit:  I should add that the whole going on trial thing, and ending up in jail, was fun.  The problem was that new content was very minor, existing as just a vehicle for the parade of past guest stars.

Re: Millennium's X-Files episode, it should be noted that Plan: Zombie was not the official group plan.  The show makes mention of the Millennium Group splitting up, and how Team Zombie decided to take it upon themselves to cause the apocalypse by this means.  And hey, how many zombie movies have we seen where one zombie starts the infection that ends the world?  It could work!  But yeah, I agree, it felt odd after the seasons of Millennium to go out with such a small event.  However, I personally loved Frank and his daughter driving away into the sunshine at the end of Season Three.  That season was a mess in general, but I was happy to see those two end on an upbeat tone.


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## swordsmasher (Nov 24, 2005)

*dude..you've heard the speech*



			
				wingsandsword said:
			
		

> Star Trek: Enterprise had a finale that was actually an insult to fans.  The entire episode is told as a Next Generation episode featuring Riker and Troi, as Riker plays a historic holodeck file reenacting the last mission of the Enterprise NX-01 as a subplot to the TNG episode "The Pegasus", set 10 years after the main body of the series, we see a main character die a meaningless death, and we get a glimpse of the signing of the charter of the Federation itself (the day NX-01 was decommissioned, thus it was never a Federation Starship so Enterprise-D can be the fifth Federation Starship Enterprise), but just as Archer is about to give a speech that Riker and Troi have talked about being incredibly historic (they had to memorize it in grade school, sort of the Federation version of the Gettysburg Address), it fades out.




and goes a little something like this: "Space, the final frontier...." and goes into something about being the "voyage of the starship enterprise" and then he talks about "seeking out new life, and new civilizations" and ends it brilliantly by saying "to boldy go where no man has gone before"

it was met to thunderous applause due it's shortness, and the fact it was quite to the point. Vulcan's everywehre were baffled by it's simpleness yet complex eccentricities, that thier whole philosphy of IDIC was born from that speech. lol


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## Psychic Warrior (Nov 24, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> ACtually, it improved greatly once he got it




 

I assume you are being sarcastic.  MASH, in Alda's hands, became one of the most depressing shows ever, devoid of any of the black humour that filled the early seasons (and movie).


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## Vigilance (Nov 24, 2005)

swordsmasher said:
			
		

> and goes a little something like this: "Space, the final frontier...." and goes into something about being the "voyage of the starship enterprise" and then he talks about "seeking out new life, and new civilizations" and ends it brilliantly by saying "to boldy go where no man has gone before"
> 
> it was met to thunderous applause due it's shortness, and the fact it was quite to the point. Vulcan's everywehre were baffled by it's simpleness yet complex eccentricities, that thier whole philosphy of IDIC was born from that speech. lol




That's why they couldn't show the speech. It reminds Berman that there was Trek before TNG. He hates that.

Chuck


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## nothing to see here (Nov 24, 2005)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> Whoa whoa whoa there, monkeyboy.  St. Elsewhere's ending, while lame in and of itself, gets a free pass from me for collapsing the ENTIRE TV UNIVERSE under it's own cosmological/ontological baggage.  You gotta love it just for that.
> 
> I'm gonna go with Millennium.  Three seasons of soul-numbing horror, and he just drives off into the sunset with his daughter?  Even lamer was the reprise of Millennium in the form of that X-Files ep where they brought Frank back, and the Millennium Group's master plan involved a bunch of zombies or something.  So undignified.




Actually Millennium could better be described as two seasons of soul numbing horror followed by one season of warmed-over X-Files grap.  It was one of the most unsatisfying TV conclusions ever.  Kinda like kissing a pretty girl after a first date and finding out that she actually has no teeth.


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## Kahuna Burger (Nov 24, 2005)

Psychic Warrior said:
			
		

> I assume you are being sarcastic.  MASH, in Alda's hands, became one of the most depressing shows ever, devoid of any of the black humour that filled the early seasons (and movie).



well, if he is, I'm not. The later seasons of mash were mature and gripping, and what I think of as the "real" show. I don't mind the earlier shows, but they were juvenile in places. And I was completely underwhellmed by the movie (which I saw after being a fan of the show.)


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## Kahuna Burger (Nov 24, 2005)

I thought B5 had a pretty dumb ending concept. "lets blow up the station just to maintain continuity with the prophocies that said it would blow up." The excuse was silly and contrived, just bleh overall.


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## Particle_Man (Nov 24, 2005)

Deep Space Nine.  Too happy-happy with everyone going their own ways to bigger and better things.  Bleh.

Star Trek:TNG, the movie Nemesis.  Let's face it.  That one certainly "ended" the series, and it certainly sucked.


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## wedgeski (Nov 24, 2005)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> I thought B5 had a pretty dumb ending concept. "lets blow up the station just to maintain continuity with the prophocies that said it would blow up." The excuse was silly and contrived, just bleh overall.



Eh? The place was decomissioned and scuttled. Why is that dumb?


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## Mad Hatter (Nov 24, 2005)

Earth: Final Conflict is just horrible.  The first two seasons were decent, but the last episode of that show made me sad.  The thing is that it had nothing to do with anything that came before it.


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## Crothian (Nov 24, 2005)

Psychic Warrior said:
			
		

> I assume you are being sarcastic.  MASH, in Alda's hands, became one of the most depressing shows ever, devoid of any of the black humour that filled the early seasons (and movie).




Don't assume...

The humor was there, it became what the show was always meant to be, an anti war piece.


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## KenM (Nov 24, 2005)

I was hoping the ending of Star Trek: Next Generation would have Picard saying "Computer, end program." He walks of the Holodeck and in reality Picard is the gardner at Starfleet academy he was always boosting about.


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## Darthjaye (Nov 24, 2005)

Particle_Man said:
			
		

> Deep Space Nine.  Too happy-happy with everyone going their own ways to bigger and better things.  Bleh.
> 
> Star Trek:TNG, the movie Nemesis.  Let's face it.  That one certainly "ended" the series, and it certainly sucked.





I have to disagree.  The show's ending was not really that happy.  Everyone suffered a loss in the season finale of one form or another.  Kira lost Odo to the collective.  The crew and his family lost Sisko to the Prophets.  Everyone pretty much moves on from the station leaving Kira all alone.   That to me seems pretty sad on many levels.  I loved this series from top to bottom.  Sure it started rough and disjointed but this was one of the best Trek series ever IMO.


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## maggot (Nov 24, 2005)

I agree with X-Files and Seinfeld have terrible endings.

Star Trek Voyager was an awful show with an awful ending that pretty much invalidated the entire series.  Multiple times in the past Janeway refuses help back to the alpha quadrant, but this time she accepts.  Huh?

I liked the DS9 ending.  It wasn't all happy as at least one major character bites it.  I didn't see the last B5 as the final season kind of meandered and kind of sucked.

But Alf had the worse series ending: a cliff-hanger where he is grabbed by the government.  And then no more series.  Ack!


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## TwistedBishop (Nov 24, 2005)

wedgeski said:
			
		

> Eh? The place was decomissioned and scuttled. Why is that dumb?





Right, it was justified very well, and an appropriate ending to the tale.  It happened twentyish years after the events of B5, so it's not like there wasn't room left for other stories.


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## mojo1701 (Nov 24, 2005)

Darthjaye said:
			
		

> IKira lost Odo to the collective.




Great Link, actually. Collective was the Borg. But yeah, you're right, it was far from happy.


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## BrooklynKnight (Nov 24, 2005)

maggot said:
			
		

> I agree with X-Files and Seinfeld have terrible endings.
> 
> Star Trek Voyager was an awful show with an awful ending that pretty much invalidated the entire series.  Multiple times in the past Janeway refuses help back to the alpha quadrant, but this time she accepts.  Huh?
> 
> ...




I disagree, It makes perfect sense. She didnt really accept help so much as force herself into a situation he couldnt refuse. Not only did she destroy a major Borg installation but she got her people home. She was also forced to face what her refusal to find a shortcut would do to her family. All the death and pain that she never had to come face to face with before.

As for DS9, I think THAT was a completly retarded ending that completly spat in the face of what Gene Rodenberry stood for. The man was an athiest. He was extremly anti-religion yet the whole series constantly played around faith and in the end a starfleet officer gives up his career, his family, his love to become some sort of god? I'm sorry but no.


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## mojo1701 (Nov 24, 2005)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> As for DS9, I think THAT was a completly retarded ending that completly spat in the face of what Gene Rodenberry stood for. The man was an athiest. He was extremly anti-religion yet the whole series constantly played around faith and in the end a starfleet officer gives up his career, his family, his love to become some sort of god? I'm sorry but no.




As much as I like Star Trek, that was its biggest problem.


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## Nightfall (Nov 24, 2005)

Uhm I didn't think he became a god so much as he joined with the Prophets so he could stop what ever it was Ducat was planning.

Also I WOULD like to point out TNG and old ST had deific beings. So it's not like he's THAT Atheistic. 

*thought that B5's ending was alright but could have been better* But I think that's reflective of season 5 over all.


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## BrooklynKnight (Nov 24, 2005)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Uhm I didn't think he became a god so much as he joined with the Prophets so he could stop what ever it was Ducat was planning.
> 
> Also I WOULD like to point out TNG and old ST had deific beings. So it's not like he's THAT Atheistic.
> 
> *thought that B5's ending was alright but could have been better* But I think that's reflective of season 5 over all.





Deific beings that were clearly aliens and werent perfect. The Prophets were the closest thing to "gods" that trek ever had, fully at the head of their own religion.


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## Nightfall (Nov 24, 2005)

And yet...they weren't perfect that I saw. 

I mean they didn't see the release of their evil brethren did they?

How is Q or Trelan an alien though? I mean they looked and acted pretty darn human to me.


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## Dark Jezter (Nov 24, 2005)

Psychic Warrior said:
			
		

> I assume you are being sarcastic.  MASH, in Alda's hands, became one of the most depressing shows ever, devoid of any of the black humour that filled the early seasons (and movie).



 Personally, I was upset at how after Alan Alda's takeover of the show, every military officer who wasn't a doctor was portrayed as a warmongering fascist who cared nothing about the men he commanded.  Because I have friends who are career military officers, I found this portrayal to both inaccurate and insulting.  The show had always been anti-war, but after Alda took over it also started to become more and more anti-military.

Other changes I didn't like after Alda took over the show:

"Hotlips" became "Margaret" and turned into just one of the guys instead of the bitchy nurse who was always the target of practical jokes.

Klinger became slick wheeler-dealer who was good at getting people things they wanted rather than the guy who dresses up as a woman to try and get out of service.

Everybody turned into sensitive people who cared deeply for each other, with none of the conflict found in the earlier episodes (such as Burns and Hotlips vs Everyone Else).

Every episode turned into the same formula: one-half attempted comedy, one-half melodrama and anti-war moralizing.

Hawkeye turned from a skirt-chasing borderline alcoholic to a world-weary hero and champion for peace (not surprising that Alan Alda would turn his own character into such a flawless and wise good guy). 

Yep, Alan Alda ruined a great little black comedy by turning it into his own personal soapbox.  Too bad.

Personally, my favorite episodes were the first ones where Henry Blacke and Trapper were part of the cast.


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## wingsandsword (Nov 24, 2005)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> I thought B5 had a pretty dumb ending concept. "lets blow up the station just to maintain continuity with the prophocies that said it would blow up." The excuse was silly and contrived, just bleh overall.



It was set 20 years after the main run of the series, a lot had changed in that time.
1. Humanity now has artificial gravity technology (among other advanced technologies given to it by the Minbari, taking it many centuries ahead technologically) and has had it for most of those 20 years, so Babylon 5 is incredibly obsolete.

2. Babylon 5 is outmoded politically and economically, the huge changes to the political landscape make Babylon 5 not the big diplomatic outpost it was built to be after the creation of the Interstellar Alliance, so it doesn't get the huge amount of traffic it used to get.

3. The maintenance costs on B5 were always said to be huge to EarthGov, and supporting a very obsolete space station, built a quarter-century ago in a different political and military era, that sees little traffic, while costing a fortune in upkeep isn't exactly bright.

4. Babylon 5 isn't mobile, they can't just take it through hyperspace to store it, and leaving it intact but abandoned there is a huge security risk, so scuttling it was the option they chose.

5. People sometimes make controversial decisions about the disposition of military hardware when the war is over.  The huge fleet we built for World War II?  Most of it was destroyed at Bikini Atoll in the "Operation Crossroads" H-Bomb tests to see what the effects of nuclear weapons on a fleet at sea would be.  Instead of mothballing or scrapping the largest fleet in our history, we blew it all up in a weapons test.


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## Nightfall (Nov 24, 2005)

So what they should have tested a new weapon to destroy B5 instead of just blowing it up?


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## Crothian (Nov 24, 2005)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> Deific beings that were clearly aliens and werent perfect. The Prophets were the closest thing to "gods" that trek ever had, fully at the head of their own religion.




Ya.nd it worked really well.  DS9 hada  great ending.  Was iut what Roddenberry would have done?  No, and thankfully we got in anyway.  DS9 is seens as one of the strongest Trek series and the ending was the only Trek ending that really had a good feeliong of closure.


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## mojo1701 (Nov 24, 2005)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> "Hotlips" became "Margaret" and turned into just one of the guys instead of the bitchy nurse who was always the target of practical jokes.




She was still somewhat bitchy, but her temperament was usually the result of one problem or another.


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## Darthjaye (Nov 24, 2005)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> I disagree, It makes perfect sense. She didnt really accept help so much as force herself into a situation he couldnt refuse. Not only did she destroy a major Borg installation but she got her people home. She was also forced to face what her refusal to find a shortcut would do to her family. All the death and pain that she never had to come face to face with before.
> 
> As for DS9, I think THAT was a completly retarded ending that completly spat in the face of what Gene Rodenberry stood for. The man was an athiest. He was extremly anti-religion yet the whole series constantly played around faith and in the end a starfleet officer gives up his career, his family, his love to become some sort of god? I'm sorry but no.





Next to the Enterprise series, Voyager was one of the worst endings I have ever seen in the Trek runs.  The whole series was just mildly better than Enterprise.  Hell, they had to shove Jerry Ryan into a skin tight suit to bump up ratings cause their writing was so bad.  

As for DS9, I can't see how the ending spat in the face of Rodenberry.  The whole series played on the fact of how fallible man can be.  However "good intentioned" they were (i.e. Section 31) they were human.  Alien's weren't all on the same page (Damar's rebellion against the Dominion and the Klingon's internal strife).  The enemy was clever and ultimately not evil, just misguided in their beliefs on what "solids" were about.  Both sides commited pretty dispicable atrocities in the war.  Even the concept of the prophets was fallible.  They believed in preserving their way at the cost of all others, and Sisko did not.  Maybe his choice to become one of them was so that he could change that perception by becoming one of their equals?  They weren't apparently all omniscient (as Nightfall pointed out).


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## Arnwyn (Nov 24, 2005)

My hate goes out to (off the top of my head):

- Enterprise
- X-Files
- Star Trek: Nemesis

(I loved the ending to Seinfeld, simply because those abhorrent schmucks got what they deserved.)


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## Fast Learner (Nov 24, 2005)

I also think M*A*S*H improved after Alda took over. There was less black comedy, it's true, but there was a hell of a lot less idiocy and some really powerful and important storytelling.


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## Cthulhudrew (Nov 24, 2005)

maggot said:
			
		

> But Alf had the worse series ending: a cliff-hanger where he is grabbed by the government.  And then no more series.  Ack!




There was a movie 6 years later, "Project Alf", that followed up on the cliffhanger. I forget how it ended, but it got him out of government custody.


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## BrooklynKnight (Nov 24, 2005)

Darthjaye said:
			
		

> Next to the Enterprise series, Voyager was one of the worst endings I have ever seen in the Trek runs.  The whole series was just mildly better than Enterprise.  Hell, they had to shove Jerry Ryan into a skin tight suit to bump up ratings cause their writing was so bad.
> 
> As for DS9, I can't see how the ending spat in the face of Rodenberry.  The whole series played on the fact of how fallible man can be.  However "good intentioned" they were (i.e. Section 31) they were human.  Alien's weren't all on the same page (Damar's rebellion against the Dominion and the Klingon's internal strife).  The enemy was clever and ultimately not evil, just misguided in their beliefs on what "solids" were about.  Both sides commited pretty dispicable atrocities in the war.  Even the concept of the prophets was fallible.  They believed in preserving their way at the cost of all others, and Sisko did not.  Maybe his choice to become one of them was so that he could change that perception by becoming one of their equals?  They weren't apparently all omniscient (as Nightfall pointed out).





Perhaps. That is certainly one way to look at it. And all those things are great, but I still would have prefered to see how rodenberry would have done it. 

As for "movie" endings to TV series. I liked the Generations ending to TNG as a series better then Nemesis. The problem with Nemesis was that it was written by a trekkie fanboy who had no respect for rodenberrys vision, and overseen by...braga!


----------



## Darthjaye (Nov 25, 2005)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> As for "movie" endings to TV series. I liked the Generations ending to TNG as a series better then Nemesis. The problem with Nemesis was that it was written by a trekkie fanboy who had no respect for rodenberrys vision, and overseen by...braga!




I didn't mind Generations, but it seemed rather....bland for their first foray into the movie "frontier" for the TNG crew.  I also did not like the way Kirk went out as far as ends to series go (seeing as this wasn't so much an ending for TNG as for the original crew).  This, if any, was a smack to the face of the original crew.   I do agree though, Nemesis, while an interesting concept, was horribly done and Braga was the big reason that the current hiatus for Star Trek has come about.  I'm thankful he did not try for a movie for the DS9 crew.  their ending was fine enough for me and is one of the few Sci-Fi series I prefer to end and stay that way despite my enjoying them.


----------



## Digital M@ (Nov 25, 2005)

Buffy The Vampire Slayer


Boy was that bad.  Turning all of those girlsinto slayers was lame.


----------



## Dark Jezter (Nov 25, 2005)

Digital M@ said:
			
		

> Buffy The Vampire Slayer
> 
> 
> Boy was that bad.  Turning all of those girlsinto slayers was lame.



 Uh oh.

Do you realized what you've done?

You've badmouthed something made by _Joss Whedon._

Prepare to be assaulted by fanboys.


----------



## Crothian (Nov 25, 2005)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Prepare to be assaulted by fanboys.




Why?  He's allowed to have his opinion no mmatter how wrong he is!!


----------



## cignus_pfaccari (Nov 25, 2005)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Prepare to be assaulted by fanboys.




You know, that turning all the Potentials into Slayers smacks of an incredibly desperate move that could have remarkably bad repercussions.  Sure, you save the world, but now there's a veritable army of tough and strong teenage girls, without any form of guidance whatsoever.

After all, not all the Potentials are nice and good and whatnot.

They didn't really touch on that in the last season of Angel, unfortunately.

Brad


----------



## Jamdin (Nov 25, 2005)

For me, _Twin Peaks_ had the worst final episode. I'm still going WTF to this day.


----------



## VirgilCaine (Nov 25, 2005)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Uh oh.
> 
> Do you realized what you've done?
> 
> ...




I've got your back, Digital M.

I liked Angel more. They used guns, later on. And things _changed_. They had different havens, characters came and went, they faced really big challenges (Jasmine, f'rex) and met interesting people (Number 5, f'rex).


----------



## Crothian (Nov 25, 2005)

cignus_pfaccari said:
			
		

> You know, that turning all the Potentials into Slayers smacks of an incredibly desperate move that could have remarkably bad repercussions.  Sure, you save the world, but now there's a veritable army of tough and strong teenage girls, without any form of guidance whatsoever.




Its the end of the show.  They don't have to worry about those types of questions.


----------



## greymist (Nov 25, 2005)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Personally, I was upset at how after Alan Alda's takeover of the show, every military officer who wasn't a doctor was portrayed as a warmongering fascist who cared nothing about the men he commanded.  Because I have friends who are career military officers, I found this portrayal to both inaccurate and insulting.




You have to remember that the show ran while the Vietnam War was still fresh in people's minds so Alda pushing the anti-war side agenda was topical and important. As for your friends, I find it hard to believe that they are insulted by the behaviour of characters on a sit-com. It's not like it was a documentary!



			
				Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> "Hotlips" became "Margaret" ... Klinger became slick wheeler-dealer ... Everybody turned into sensitive people who cared deeply for each other ... Hawkeye turned from a skirt-chasing borderline alcoholic to a world-weary hero and champion for peace




Don't forget that the show ran for 11 seasons. If the characters did not develop beyond the one dimensional sterotypes from the movie it would not have lasted two years, who would want to watch the same thing every week after week without any change. The only comedy I can think of that got away with this was Seinfeld, and that'e because it was completely unrealistic in its depiction of every single character.


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## wingsandsword (Nov 25, 2005)

A side note about turning all the potentials into Slayers, from a gaming perspective.  That's an example I always use in Mage of a Prime 6 level effect: Making a worldwide metaphysical change.

Personally, I thought it was a really cool scene, and I loved the Buffy finale.


----------



## Mad Hatter (Nov 25, 2005)

I second the blind love and adoration for the Buffy finale.  They do address it in books after the show, but we aren't really discussing that.  I never really cared for Angel in the later seasons, so I wasn't really on board with the ending especially since it wasn't supposed to be an ending.

Although I respect the disagreement with the ending.  I had a brief WTF period, but then I got over it and realized that Joss is a genius.


----------



## Dark Jezter (Nov 25, 2005)

greymist said:
			
		

> You have to remember that the show ran while the Vietnam War was still fresh in people's minds so Alda pushing the anti-war side agenda was topical and important. As for your friends, I find it hard to believe that they are insulted by the behaviour of characters on a sit-com. It's not like it was a documentary!




It wasn't really important.  By the time Alan Alda was given control of MASH, anti-war propoganda had been prevelant in books, movies, and music for over a decade.  The first few seasons of MASH were a comedic masterpiece, but after Alda took over it became melodramatic, preachy, and full of anti-war messages that had become overused and cliche by that time.

Also, while I did remark that the portrayal of military officers in post-Alda MASH was insulting, that dosen't necessarily mean that myself or my friends were personally insulted by it (boy, did that sound like a politician's answer or what?  ).  I just found it distasteful.



> Don't forget that the show ran for 11 seasons. If the characters did not develop beyond the one dimensional sterotypes from the movie it would not have lasted two years, who would want to watch the same thing every week after week without any change. The only comedy I can think of that got away with this was Seinfeld, and that'e because it was completely unrealistic in its depiction of every single character.




Characters can grow and develop over time, but changing Hotlips into one of the main characters and making her a sympathetic character detracted from the little remaining comedic value the series had left at that point.


----------



## wingsandsword (Nov 25, 2005)

greymist said:
			
		

> You have to remember that the show ran while the Vietnam War was still fresh in people's minds so Alda pushing the anti-war side agenda was topical and important. As for your friends, I find it hard to believe that they are insulted by the behaviour of characters on a sit-com. It's not like it was a documentary!



Actually, while the show began in the Vietnam era, it ended in the Reagan era.  It didn't start to get really preachy until well after the war was completely over.  That's what an 11 year run will do.  It might not be a documentary, but it does have the odd position of being the popular cultures main image of the Korean War.


----------



## Nightfall (Nov 25, 2005)

Regarding the Angel/Buffy endings, I disliked the way both ended, but both had the pleasure of making me hate as opposed to the sheer apathy/loathing I felt for say the ending of other ST series that were not movies or Vogager/Enterprise.


----------



## TwistedBishop (Nov 25, 2005)

I'll second the Buffy finale hate.  I didn't know if I should be laughing or crying at the spectacle it made of itself at the end, but then that's how I felt in general during the last two seasons.


----------



## Psychic Warrior (Nov 25, 2005)

I'll nominate the original series of Star Trek mainly because they didn't get a finale! 

edit - errr my brain no worky today?


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## DonTadow (Nov 25, 2005)

maggot said:
			
		

> I agree with X-Files and Seinfeld have terrible endings.
> 
> Star Trek Voyager was an awful show with an awful ending that pretty much invalidated the entire series.  Multiple times in the past Janeway refuses help back to the alpha quadrant, but this time she accepts.  Huh?
> 
> ...



AGreed.  Voyager was the worst ending, as the only way they could figure out how to use the show was to "time travel" and create a huge paradox.  DS9 was also a sad ending in my book.  Odo returned to the collective, but you knew he was still in love with Kira.  HE tears his self away from the woman he loves so he can cure his family. 

Sisco essentially dies.  Transending to a "higher" form is dying in my book.  Jake has to deal with losing his father.  The universe is in a situation of chaos as the end of the war happened, but we saw no "end results".  Remember through the last couple seasons they'd make hints at how the Romulans wouldn't give this land back and the Klingons wouldn't give that.  It was just a prime show for a sequal, instead we get the Voyagers boring trek through the delta quandrant.  

I loved the angel and buffy finale on a emotional level, but hated that UPN didn't give Joss 2 hours for the finale like he wanted.  The buffy finale felt rushed and packed and when you observe the plot, it doesnt make any sense at all.  They go into the hell mouth... errr.. to do what, they didn't know what hte amulet did yet and they were out numbered 1,000 to 1.  They had the weapon idea, but that was it and that was obviously not going to kill them all.  They sort of muddled through it.  

Angel was canceled too early and the ending seemed a bit rushed, but the last 20 minutes was great, with the group continuing to fight, no happy ending,... angel was never the happy show that was Buffy.  Angel was the redemption show, which we all know is impossible.  

My worst ending (which ranks lower than some of the others mentioned but frustrated me none the less) Quantum Leap.  All the emotions you went through with Sam and Al and he doesnt get back home.  That was depressing in that the reason you watched every week was the see his adventures and hope he eventually got back home.


----------



## Storm Raven (Nov 25, 2005)

wedgeski said:
			
		

> Eh? The place was decomissioned and scuttled. Why is that dumb?




And it wasn't even the real point of the finale. The finale was about Sheridan's death, blowing up B5 was a side plot - a significant side plot, but still a side plot. The main plot of the finale was Sheridan's farewell.


----------



## ShinHakkaider (Nov 25, 2005)

double post


----------



## ShinHakkaider (Nov 25, 2005)

Digital M@ said:
			
		

> Buffy The Vampire Slayer
> 
> 
> Boy was that bad.  Turning all of those girlsinto slayers was lame.




Agreed. It was crap. I have Seasons 1-5 of BUFFY. The show ends for me when she sacrifices herself at the end of S5 to save the world. To me the show took a huge dip in quality after s5 a couple of choice episodes doesnt out weigh the fact that most of the eps were sub par comapared to what we were getting previously.


And the whole "even bad Joss is better than most TV" is crap. Going from eating prime rib to millet isnt great because the next edible option literally crap. If that's the case the people are REALLY selling themselves short. 

Now ANGEL, THAT is how a show is supposed to end.


----------



## wedgeski (Nov 25, 2005)

ShinHakkaider said:
			
		

> Agreed. It was crap. I have Seasons 1-5 of BUFFY. The show ends for me when she sacrifices herself at the end of S5 to save the world. To me the show took a huge dip in quality after s5 a couple of choice episodes doesnt out weigh the fact that most of the eps were sub par comapared to what we were getting previously.



I agree... kind of. Certainly the subsequent series with Buffy's return and her psychotic episodes, then Willow's turn to the dark side, was disappointingly feeble. That entire series just felt wrongly: wrongly conceived, wrongly executed. Now, the final season, I kinda liked, and I have no problem with the finale which seemed to me a very fitting end to the series (and a great setup for a spinoff). It hit all the right notes.



> Now ANGEL, THAT is how a show is supposed to end.



Yup, great ending.

Every TV producer/writer should be forced, contractually, to write the ending of their series almost from the word go, so that when the inevitable cancellation occurs, they're not left fumbling around for a decent finale. See: JMS, Babylon 5.


----------



## Nightfall (Nov 25, 2005)

I guess this is where I'll disagree, Angel SHOULD have not been canceled nor should have made Joss rush. But that's me. I will agree, the last 20 minutes great stuff. Especially Angel's line at the end of the show. That was great stuff.

Wedge,

Are you refering to season 5 as a whole or to the ending?


----------



## maggot (Nov 25, 2005)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> I disagree, It makes perfect sense. She didnt really accept help so much as force herself into a situation he couldnt refuse. Not only did she destroy a major Borg installation but she got her people home. She was also forced to face what her refusal to find a shortcut would do to her family. All the death and pain that she never had to come face to face with before.




Ack!  Thinking this in depth about ST:Voyager (Voyager!) scares me.  How I take seriously any show where they find a car floating in space and start it up (apparently it was floating in space with a full tank of gas), and then find the AM radio works and lead them to a planet they didn't know about?  The show was so bad on so many level, so at some level the ending was appropriat.



> As for DS9, I think THAT was a completly retarded ending that completly spat in the face of what Gene Rodenberry stood for. The man was an athiest. He was extremly anti-religion yet the whole series constantly played around faith and in the end a starfleet officer gives up his career, his family, his love to become some sort of god? I'm sorry but no.




I don't really care what GR would have wanted, I liked the ending.  If the ending was a preachy atheist ending, I doubt I would have liked it.


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## Nightfall (Nov 25, 2005)

I'm just glad DS9 had a good ending. I don't think the same can be said about the other ST creations.


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## Viking Bastard (Nov 25, 2005)

Well, All Good Things was a kick-arse finale.

The movies are just a epilogue.


			
				Psychic Warrior said:
			
		

> ...(or I guess you could count *shudder* Star Trek V:Final Frontier as the finale in which case my nomination stands)



Er... Star Trek VI: Undiscovered Country?

TOS got a good finale with that movie.

(Generations may have been Kirk's end, but it wasn't TOS's.)


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## Nightfall (Nov 25, 2005)

Well maybe but honestly it just felt like another STG ep in some ways, only much cooler.


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## David Howery (Nov 25, 2005)

I was ambivelant about the Buffy ending... OTOH, you had that magical amulet gizmo just conveniently turn up and save the day.. where the hell did it come from?  OTOH.... Sunnydale got pulled into the Hellmouth!  Cool!  I'd love to see the media try to explain that one...

I rather liked the idea of a lot of girls around the world getting Slayer powered... when you consider what happens to so many girls around the world.  Forced marriages, honor killings, horrifying statistics of rape, being dragged into brothels, etc... imagine what a Slayer would do to someone who tried this....


----------



## Viking Bastard (Nov 25, 2005)

The Amulet Gizmo came from Angel, IIRC.


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## swordsmasher (Nov 25, 2005)

Well, as for Quantum Leap, they left the ending open ended in case they ever wanted to go back and do it again. And you do realize that every once in a while Sam does get to leap home (maybe not the one he wants to be at, but whatever). I heard a rumor not too long ago that they were planning a miniseries, or even a tv movie, where they lose track of sam somehow, so his daughter jumps into the accelerator and goes through time searching for sam, with sam popping up every now and then i guess. sounds interesting to me.

voyager had a good basic storyline, but i think it would have made a better miniseries. i lost all respect for that show the episode where the one harry dies by getting blasted into space, then they just replace him with the one from the other dimension (sans the beard!! what's with that!?!?! we all know people from the other dimension have beards and are evil, right?) lol

The 1st last episode of Charmed was really stupid in my book. Yay, let's all use magic to change our looks and id's and go about our daily lives. i am so glad the show got renewed and they changed that.

Sister, Sister!! Right, the whole show started off as these twins seperated at birth find eachother, go through all the crap to find thier real parents, and when the real dad shows up, they split up again. hoo boy. lol

Xena, Warrior Princess: I mean, come on!!!!!! the woman takes on the greek god of war and constantly wipes her butt with him, yet she gets decapped by some samurai????? though i got to say, at least the show kept to the original plot with gabby going off to write the xena scrolls.

As for DS9, the only thing that always bugged me was every time they got in the darn ship, you could pretty much guess the dialogue. it always seemed so rehearsed and fake. not too mention, lines like "I am bringing the shuttle to bearing 447-45 mark 2.7" yeah, who says that. more like "i am bringing her around." you know what I mean? and then not just starfleet, but even the pirate dudes and the klingons too! yeah, whatever.


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## DonTadow (Nov 25, 2005)

maggot said:
			
		

> Ack!  Thinking this in depth about ST:Voyager (Voyager!) scares me.  How I take seriously any show where they find a car floating in space and start it up (apparently it was floating in space with a full tank of gas), and then find the AM radio works and lead them to a planet they didn't know about?  The show was so bad on so many level, so at some level the ending was appropriat.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't really care what GR would have wanted, I liked the ending.  If the ending was a preachy atheist ending, I doubt I would have liked it.



I"m an athiest, and I don't think DS9 was too far away from Roddenberry's beliefs.  The show talked about religion as real as a show is. What I got from the bajorans was that they knew that the higher beings were aliens but still worshiped them none the less.  The wormhole aliens were no different from the Que or the Traveller.  I liked DS9 for actually taking us in the realm of these higher beings nad not playing us for stupid.  

As for voyager, yeah, anytime you use time travel to end a series, you obviously had no idea  how to end it. Time travel is the easiest way to get out of anything when you can't write your way out (see the third harry potter book/movie)  Time travel is what you result to when you've written yourself into a hole.  It's easy.  It can be done right, but it rarely is.  Especially when you leave holes in the plot such as why didn't they do this before, how come others havn't attempted, was what we saw reality or just another time line ect.


----------



## Mad Hatter (Nov 25, 2005)

Charmed went downhill when they decided to cut Shannon Doherty instead of Alyssa Milano.  I liked last season's finale because it was an end.  This new season is not good to me.


----------



## Nightfall (Nov 25, 2005)

Yeah the way they did season 7 of charmed finale, really stupid. But honestly Charmed has gone down hill since the demise of the Source (and of course removing Cole as a possible revival of the Source.)

IE: Shannon over Alyssa, what I'd REALLY liked to have happen is BOTH get over themselves. While I don't mind Whitelighter Paige/Rose McGowan, I do think the series worked best with those two in their roles, not as it currently is.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Nov 26, 2005)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> AGreed.  Voyager was the worst ending, as the only way they could figure out how to use the show was to "time travel" and create a huge paradox.  DS9 was also a sad ending in my book.  Odo returned to the collective, but you knew he was still in love with Kira.  HE tears his self away from the woman he loves so he can cure his family.



I think one of my main problems with the finale, was it ended (IIRC) about half hour short as an actual episode, then went into 30 minutes of wrap up. A quick wrap up is fine if it's quick, but it was so long it felt wierd.


> I loved the angel and buffy finale on a emotional level, but hated that UPN didn't give Joss 2 hours for the finale like he wanted.  The buffy finale felt rushed and packed and when you observe the plot, it doesnt make any sense at all.  They go into the hell mouth... errr.. to do what, they didn't know what hte amulet did yet and they were out numbered 1,000 to 1.  They had the weapon idea, but that was it and that was obviously not going to kill them all.  They sort of muddled through it.



The thing with it being "rushed" in the finale, is you have to take the season as a whole. There were large gaps of plotlessness, and episodes where nothing at all happened. Then suddenly they add a bunch of elements in the last couple episodes, and complain that they didn't have longer for the finale itself?

And yes, Faith returns, and does nothing. They kick Buffy out because her plans boiled down to "lets charge!" and then accept her back and follow her plan of "lets Charge!". The amulet, the axe, the Empower All Potentials (even if the girls in her house were supposed to be the last of the potentials), and of course the source of the Slayer Power is because a bunch of men had a demon rape the first slayer?

Mind you, I'm a man, so Buffy's Anti-Male aspects became quite obvious to me. Female Empowerment can be done well without downgrading men in the process, but not in the Buffy Series.


----------



## Villano (Nov 26, 2005)

I forgot about Angel.  They basically tried to squeeze another season into the last few episode.  The rushed feel was bad enough, but taking time out to include the comedy episode with The Immortal in Italy was an incredibly dumb idea.  

We're supposed to be concerned that Angel has turned evil, suddenly he's acting goofy in a silly comedy, then he's "evil" again.  Joss should never complain about having to rush things considering he wasted an episode for throwaway nonsense.

An Xena was pretty bad, mostly because it focused on some heretofore unknow aspect of her past instead of building on something already established.  Then again, it might actually be appropriate since, as a series, it was all over the place like that (serious, comedy, no continuity, etc.).


----------



## DM_Matt (Nov 26, 2005)

David Howery said:
			
		

> I rather liked the idea of a lot of girls around the world getting Slayer powered... when you consider what happens to so many girls around the world.  Forced marriages, honor killings, horrifying statistics of rape, being dragged into brothels, etc... imagine what a Slayer would do to someone who tried this....




Yes, evil things are done to women by men (and by other women).  Women also do evil things.  Many people, suddenly granted those powers, would be quite tempted to abuse them.  Randomly distributing superhuman combat ability is extremely unwise any way you slice it.



			
				wingsandsword said:
			
		

> Actually, while the show began in the Vietnam era, it ended in the Reagan era.  It didn't start to get really preachy until well after the war was completely over.  That's what an 11 year run will do.  It might not be a documentary, but it does have the odd position of being the popular cultures main image of the Korean War.




Except there probably are many, many people who mistakenly believe its about Vietnam.


----------



## PhoenixDarkDirk (Nov 26, 2005)

I was rather perplexed at the ending of "Roseanne", in which it is reaveled that pretty much the entire series is a semiautobiographic story Roseanne wrote. It then shows the way things really happened, like Dan not surviving his heart attack.


----------



## Fast Learner (Nov 26, 2005)

DM_Matt said:
			
		

> Except there probably are many, many people who mistakenly believe its about Vietnam.



It is about Vietnam. It just happens to be set in Korea 15 years earlier, but it's about Vietnam all the same.


----------



## Kahuna Burger (Nov 26, 2005)

DM_Matt said:
			
		

> Randomly distributing superhuman combat ability is extremely unwise any way you slice it.




superhuman combat ability is already randomly distributed through the buffyverse. Any given potential could have ended up "next in line" anyway, and there would have been no group of similarly powered women around to deal with her.



> Except there probably are many, many people who mistakenly believe its about Vietnam.



Like fast learner said.


----------



## Kahuna Burger (Nov 26, 2005)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> Other changes I didn't like after Alda took over the show:
> 
> .....
> 
> ...



this would be a classic different strokes for different folks I suppose, as every change you listed I would consider either a) false or b) a maturing influence that massivly improved the show.

I'm not sure when alda "took over the show" as imdb lists him writing and directing episodes in a variety of seasons (some quite early) and never producing. But the replacement of the wacky frat boy sidekicks and cartoonish nemisies with actual, you know, characters, took place before or at the halfway mark of the show's run and it went off the air with probably the most watched final ep to that point. So if growing up ruined the show, it escaped the notice of the majority of its fans.


----------



## Kahuna Burger (Nov 26, 2005)

wedgeski said:
			
		

> Eh? The place was decomissioned and scuttled. Why is that dumb?



just to get back to this - the station was in orbit around a planet. (or at least tied to it somehow) the planet had had quite a bit of background plot use, and keeping an outpost near it probably wouldn't be a bad idea. additionally, what with the big planet sized object sitting right beside it, the excuse that it was a "navigation hazard" was particularly rediculous.

also, since they spend one season independant from earth, I think its been demonstrated that outdated or not, the station could be self sufficient (especially when not embargoed.) There's someone out there that would buy it. (in what we laughingly call the real world, there's some dork living on an abandoned WWII outpost in the ocean and calling himself a country, so we know its possible.)

Also, outdated or not, the thing has value even as scrap.

So basicly, it wasn't a hazard to navigation, it wasn't useless, and it wasn't without value. Blowing it up was cheesy.

But then the whole 5th season choked, so why worry about the ending.  :\


----------



## Dark Jezter (Nov 26, 2005)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> But the replacement of the wacky frat boy sidekicks and cartoonish nemisies with actual, you know, characters, took place before or at the halfway mark of the show's run and it went off the air with probably the most watched final ep to that point. So if growing up ruined the show, it escaped the notice of the majority of its fans.




To quote Napoleon Dynamite, "Like anybody could possibly know that."

Having a final episode that was watched by a lot of people does not mean that the majority of the show's fans approved of the changes to the show.  The final episode of MASH was a highly-publicised and hyped event, drawing people to the show who didn't even watch it normally.  The same thing happened with the final episode of Seinfeld.

As for me, I'll take immature and cartoony over sanctimonious and melodramatic any day of the week.

This is hardly a new debate, however.  It's even mentioned in Wikipedia:



> There has been much dispute among fans as to when M*A*S*H jumped the shark, or whether it ever jumped the shark at all. Some fans insist that it was brilliant from the beginning to the end, or that it hit its brilliance in the later seasons as it gradually became more serious, especially with Alan Alda becoming more active in the creative process of the series. Such fans often point out to the show's 11 year run as proof of its brilliance and success. Other fans, however, feel that the series ran too long and, like many other shows, gradually deteriorated during the later seasons, losing much of its warmth and humor and replacing it with outright preaching. These fans blame Alan Alda taking more control over the series and imbuing it with his own personal and political beliefs for ruining the series, and that because of Alda's writing, the series has not aged well. Some fans feel the show fell apart with the departures of Henry Blake and Trapper John, others with the departure of Frank Burns and others with the departure of Radar. Harry Morgan, who played Colonel Potter, admitted in an interview that he felt "the cracks were starting to show" by season nine, and revealed that season ten was going to be the last but then they decided to go for just one more.


----------



## Neo (Nov 26, 2005)

Worst Series Finale for me would have to be Andromeda..  series started off very good, and in turth I enjoyed the first 2 or 3 series.. but the actualy finale to the whole thing and the whole Paradigm, Defeating the Abyss, Route of Age gubbins was just utter monkey chunder.

I still enjoy watching the early episodes though.  Had some really cool concepts and I liked the Neitzcheans, Genites etc..


----------



## BrooklynKnight (Nov 26, 2005)

Neo said:
			
		

> Worst Series Finale for me would have to be Andromeda..  series started off very good, and in turth I enjoyed the first 2 or 3 series.. but the actualy finale to the whole thing and the whole Paradigm, Defeating the Abyss, Route of Age gubbins was just utter monkey chunder.
> 
> I still enjoy watching the early episodes though.  Had some really cool concepts and I liked the Neitzcheans, Genites etc..




Another Rodenberry series gone downhill.

Nearly every one of Gene Rodenberries ideas for shows started out really well. Startrek, Earth Final Conflict, Andromeda (which he though up after a particular startrek episode i belive...)

However, all of his shows went downhill after he died and someone else got control. Im not to happy with his wife Majel either, who's allowed the constant  to happen in order to keep money in the families accounts. Sometimes I feel she had no real respect for her husbands vision.

I like Kevin Sorbo, but when he became executive producer the show slooooooooooooooowly went downhill. Instead of focusing the show on the creation of the Commonwealth he steamrolled over that particular plot and right past it...


----------



## Fast Learner (Nov 26, 2005)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> Sometimes I feel she had no real respect for her husbands vision.



I don't have any reason to believe that she did. Nor, really, why she particularly should have, if it's not compelling to her.


----------



## Viking Bastard (Nov 26, 2005)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> just to get back to this...
> 
> [...]
> 
> So basicly, it wasn't a hazard to navigation, it wasn't useless, and it wasn't without value. Blowing it up was cheesy.



I beg to differ.

When they broke from Earth, didn't the Minbari and Coalition of Neutral Worlds (or whatever
it was called) pay for it's upkeep? So it wasn't self-sufficient. The hazard of navigation was
just an excuse. It was obsolete. It was old, it was pointless and Sheridan didn't want it in 
someone else's hands. He wanted it to go out with dignity because he loved the damn thing
and because he knew he was dying this was his last chance to 'save' it.


----------



## Richards (Nov 27, 2005)

I just want to point out an episode of the original _Star Trek_ series, to refute the position that the show had no deities.  I don't remember the name of the episode, but there was a planet where the Roman Empire hadn't fallen, but had lasted and progressed (technologically, anyway) into the equivalent of the 20th century.  (I remember the "Jupiter 8" was a brand of car or something.)  Anyway, there was a cult of "sun worshipers" that were being subjegated, and Uhura mentions at the end scene that the universal translator indicated it wasn't "sun worshipers," but rather "Son worshipers" - and that most likely, Jesus would shortly be born onto that world as well.

I'm not trying to get into a religious argument, and I don't think I've crossed over any religious lines (I'm just stating facts from a specific episode of the show), but despite the fact that _Star Trek_ had Greek gods that were really just powerful aliens, and the serpent-god Vaal who was really just a powerful computer, it occasionally would pop in something like the above to reinforce the fact that Christianity had made it intact to the "current" Star Trek era.

Johnathan


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## mojo1701 (Nov 27, 2005)

Richards said:
			
		

> I just want to point out an episode of the original _Star Trek_ series, to refute the position that the show had no deities.  I don't remember the name of the episode, but there was a planet where the Roman Empire hadn't fallen, but had lasted and progressed (technologically, anyway) into the equivalent of the 20th century.  (I remember the "Jupiter 8" was a brand of car or something.)  Anyway, there was a cult of "sun worshipers" that were being subjegated, and Uhura mentions at the end scene that the universal translator indicated it wasn't "sun worshipers," but rather "Son worshipers" - and that most likely, Jesus would shortly be born onto that world as well.




The episode was called "Bread and Circuses." I read somewhere that episodes like that and the pro-patriotist episode "The Omega Glory" were episodes written to appease and pander to the Network execs.



> _I'm not trying to get into a religious argument, and I don't think I've crossed over any religious lines (I'm just stating facts from a specific episode of the show), but despite the fact that _Star Trek_ had Greek gods that were really just powerful aliens, and the serpent-god Vaal who was really just a powerful computer, it occasionally would pop in something like the above to reinforce the fact that Christianity had made it intact to the "current" Star Trek era._




One part I remember especially was in an _Enterprise_ episode (probably the first one, "Broken Bow") where Phlox mentions his experience during a mass at St. Peter's Basilica.


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## Viking Bastard (Nov 27, 2005)

It was also hinted at a couple of times throughout DS9 that both Sisko and his father were christians while Sisko's son was less so.

It was never stated outright, but Sisko said things like 'There are certain things I... believe in.'

I never took it as religion was dead in Federation era Earth, as much as it was a non-issue.


----------



## DM_Matt (Nov 27, 2005)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> superhuman combat ability is already randomly distributed through the buffyverse. Any given potential could have ended up "next in line" anyway, and there would have been no group of similarly powered women around to deal with her.




Yes, but there are only one or two at a time with that kind of power and the Watchers' council had an infrastructure.  The survivors form Sunnydale would have to create a system from scratch with little to no rescources, and even then they wont get most of the new slayers until they have been slayers for a while and have probably decided what path to take with thier powers.

Besides, even if that were wise, the last two episodes had way too many Deus Ex Machinas to be decent.  The two crazy artifacts, Willow's sudden realization that she could cast a spell to create dozens of superheroes from scratch, and the utter rediculous of Buffy's plan come together to make one cruddy ending.



			
				Kahuna Burger and Fast Learner said:
			
		

> It is about Vietnam. It just happens to be set in Korea 15 years earlier, but it's about Vietnam all the same.




I never denied that.  I was taking issue with the claim that it is the key cultural image in everyone's mind of the Korean War.


----------



## BrooklynKnight (Nov 27, 2005)

Viking Bastard said:
			
		

> It was also hinted at a couple of times throughout DS9 that both Sisko and his father were christians while Sisko's son was less so.
> 
> It was never stated outright, but Sisko said things like 'There are certain things I... believe in.'
> 
> I never took it as religion was dead in Federation era Earth, as much as it was a non-issue.




Exactly. In Gene Rodenberry's Startrek religion for humans was a non-issue. We had our histories and some people had our beliefs but as a society we evolved beyond the need for faith in a higher power.

I seem to remember Picard making that point MANY times in the first few seasons of TNG.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Nov 27, 2005)

maggot said:
			
		

> Ack!  Thinking this in depth about ST:Voyager (Voyager!) scares me.  How I take seriously any show where they find a car floating in space and start it up (apparently it was floating in space with a full tank of gas), and then find the AM radio works and lead them to a planet they didn't know about?  The show was so bad on so many level, so at some level the ending was appropriat.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't really care what GR would have wanted, I liked the ending.  If the ending was a preachy atheist ending, I doubt I would have liked it.



And I think the ending is quite fitting for a Gene Roddenberrys vision - the prophets, supposed to be gods, with incredible powers, needed a human to help them understand the world...


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## swordsmasher (Nov 27, 2005)

but then you have Beverly Crusher constantly saying "Oh my god!" every time she turns around.


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## Villano (Nov 27, 2005)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> Exactly. In Gene Rodenberry's Startrek religion for humans was a non-issue. We had our histories and some people had our beliefs but as a society we evolved beyond the need for faith in a higher power.
> 
> I seem to remember Picard making that point MANY times in the first few seasons of TNG.




I was always bothered by this.  The writers say that humanity has "evolved" beyond the need for what amounts to religious beliefs.  OTOH, other alien cultures, from Klingons to Vulcans, are shown to have some kind of religious beliefs.   This must then mean that these aliens aren't as evolved (and hence inferior) to humanity.  After all, they are still clinging to what the writers view as primitive, superstitious beliefs.


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## DonTadow (Nov 27, 2005)

Villano said:
			
		

> I was always bothered by this.  The writers say that humanity has "evolved" beyond the need for what amounts to religious beliefs.  OTOH, other alien cultures, from Klingons to Vulcans, are shown to have some kind of religious beliefs.   This must then mean that these aliens aren't as evolved (and hence inferior) to humanity.  After all, they are still clinging to what the writers view as primitive, superstitious beliefs.



I think he was implying evolve within the human culture.  Different cultures evolve differently.  I don't think the writers discounted the beliefs of the other cultures as primitive and supersititious as the klingon spirituallity played a heavy emphasis on ds9 and tng.


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## GrayLinnorm (Nov 27, 2005)

I'll second the inclusion of the Seinfeld and Roseanne (what a sad ending to a once-great show) finales.  I'll also mention the series finale of Cheers --- 90 minutes with 30 seconds of laughs.

But the absolute lamest series finale I've seen was for Parker Lewis Can't Lose (remember that show?).  The basic premise was that the diner that Parker Lewis and his friends hung out in was going to be torn down.  Most of the show was clips which came out of the jukebox(!!) (a previous poster hated clip shows --- so do I) and it ended with the coach (who ran the diner) lipsynching to a show tume.  Pathetic.


----------



## farscapesg1 (Nov 27, 2005)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> My worst ending (which ranks lower than some of the others mentioned but frustrated me none the less) Quantum Leap.  All the emotions you went through with Sam and Al and he doesnt get back home.  That was depressing in that the reason you watched every week was the see his adventures and hope he eventually got back home.




I have agree that I found Quantum Leap's ending pretty bad.  I also really didn't like the ending of Sliders for the same reason.  Not to mention I somehow missed an entire last season somehow and finally got to see it on Sci-Fi a couple years ago.  If I remember, the last episode just has them jumping through a wormhole that was supposed to take them home, but how many times has that happened before?

Of course, I thought that Sliders went down hill after they lost Wade.  Then the loss of Quinn made it almost unwatchable.


----------



## BrooklynKnight (Nov 27, 2005)

farscapesg1 said:
			
		

> I have agree that I found Quantum Leap's ending pretty bad.  I also really didn't like the ending of Sliders for the same reason.  Not to mention I somehow missed an entire last season somehow and finally got to see it on Sci-Fi a couple years ago.  If I remember, the last episode just has them jumping through a wormhole that was supposed to take them home, but how many times has that happened before?
> 
> Of course, I thought that Sliders went down hill after they lost Wade.  Then the loss of Quinn made it almost unwatchable.




I forget how Quantum Leap Ended? was it the two parter where he ran into the female leaper (guided by evil) for the second time?

As for Sliders, only one of them jumped through the wormhole in the last episode, remmy i think it was. Initially there was supposed to be a special 2 hour movie on Sci-fi to actually end the series and explain what happened after that. But Sci-fi never bothered to make it.


----------



## wingsandsword (Nov 27, 2005)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> I forget how Quantum Leap Ended? was it the two parter where he ran into the female leaper (guided by evil) for the second time?



The last episode of Quantum Leap had Sam leap into this weird bar that was at his exact time of birth, with an omniscient bartender that was strongly implied to be God and people he met from previous leaps in the bar, with some being leapers themselves.  There Sam learns how to control his leaping, and before leaping home he decides to help Al out by leaping into him in the past and preventing him from leaving his wife years before.  However, in doing this he prevents Al from ever working on the Quantum Leap project and thus makes it so he can never return home, and the show ends on a closing card that just says that Dr. Sam Beckett never made it home.


----------



## BrooklynKnight (Nov 27, 2005)

That sucks!


----------



## Particle_Man (Nov 27, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> The last episode of Quantum Leap had Sam leap into this weird bar that was at his exact time of birth, with an omniscient bartender that was strongly implied to be God and people he met from previous leaps in the bar, with some being leapers themselves.  There Sam learns how to control his leaping, and before leaping home he decides to help Al out by leaping into him in the past and preventing him from leaving his wife years before.  However, in doing this he prevents Al from ever working on the Quantum Leap project and thus makes it so he can never return home, and the show ends on a closing card that just says that Dr. Sam Beckett never made it home.




I remember it slightly differently.  Sam leaped into the past to tell the wife to simply WAIT for her husband Al, who was missing in vietmam.  So she waits, instead of considering him dead and marrying someone else.  There is no information on whether this affects the project (Al might still have ended up working on it), so "Sam Beckett never made it home" might just mean he is "leaping as a servant of God" now.


----------



## Crothian (Nov 27, 2005)

PhoenixDarkDirk said:
			
		

> I was rather perplexed at the ending of "Roseanne", in which it is reaveled that pretty much the entire series is a semiautobiographic story Roseanne wrote. It then shows the way things really happened, like Dan not surviving his heart attack.




The last season was really bad, but the end was nice and I liked how they showed how it was different and it was creative.


----------



## Bront (Nov 27, 2005)

Mad Hatter said:
			
		

> Earth: Final Conflict is just horrible.  The first two seasons were decent, but the last episode of that show made me sad.  The thing is that it had nothing to do with anything that came before it.



How did that show end?  Details...

I thought 3rd Rock from the Sun was a dumb ending.  "Oh, we're going, we're aliens, now forget you ever knew us but remember to feel good about us.  Bye"  Bletch


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## Elf Witch (Nov 27, 2005)

Two series endings I really hated were Forever Knight and Blake 7. In both everyone dies. Now Blake 7 was always a grim so I can at least understand why the ending. But Forever Knight was all about Nick trying to become human. They showed it was possible with Janette earler in the season. But they ended it with Nick killing Natalie and then Nick asking Lacroix to kill him. Lame Lame Lame!


----------



## frandelgearslip (Nov 27, 2005)

I also agree that enterprise was a horrid ending.  So was Buffy, but the whole last two seasons were horrid.  The death of anya was the most pointless stupid thing I have ever seen.  As for Angel the problem was that they tried to cram 3 seasons into one season (lindsay season, fred demon season, wolfram and hart season).  

As a matter of fact all of joss whedon's shows have bad endings, because he does cliched things just because its "cool".  Before watching serenity I preceeded to guess the number of crew deaths and which crew members they were.  He ended Firefly identically to how he ended buffy and angel so it wasn't hard to figure out.

I remember explaining to a friend that by the end of earth final conflict that none of the original characters were left and with one exception none of the characters that replaced the original characters were left.  All the characters were "3rd generation" or later.


----------



## Kahuna Burger (Nov 27, 2005)

Elf Witch said:
			
		

> Two series endings I really hated were Forever Knight and Blake 7. In both everyone dies. Now Blake 7 was always a grim so I can at least understand why the ending. But Forever Knight was all about Nick trying to become human. They showed it was possible with Janette earler in the season. But they ended it with Nick killing Natalie and then Nick asking Lacroix to kill him. Lame Lame Lame!



Heh, I discovered Forever Knight in reruns, and then I randomly caught that one. At the end I was just "What the hell was that?!?! Did they end the show that way? How lame can you get?!?!"


----------



## Kahuna Burger (Nov 27, 2005)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> As for me, I'll take immature and cartoony over sanctimonious and melodramatic any day of the week.
> 
> This is hardly a new debate, however.  It's even mentioned in Wikipedia:



So we agree that its different strokes fo different folks. Excellent. And now that its in reruns, you are as like to see the ones you like as I am.


----------



## Kahuna Burger (Nov 27, 2005)

Viking Bastard said:
			
		

> I beg to differ.
> 
> When they broke from Earth, didn't the Minbari and Coalition of Neutral Worlds (or whatever
> it was called) pay for it's upkeep? So it wasn't self-sufficient.



it was a while back, but I recal a bit where Ivanava met with a group of semi reputable smugglers to keep trade running and docking fees paid in spite of the earth embargo. The minbari were using B5, not keeping it around for charity. 



> The hazard of navigation was just an excuse.



indeed, but an excuse for who? I say for the audience.



> It was obsolete. It was old, it was pointless




One of these things is not like the others....   maybe it was obsolete as well as old, but log cabins with woodstoves and non-flush toilets are pretty obsolete and yet people buy them all the time. 


> and Sheridan didn't want it in someone else's hands. He wanted it to go out with dignity because he loved the damn thing and because he knew he was dying this was his last chance to 'save' it.



er, I didn't get the impression that sheridan had anything to do with the decision. I thought he was informed of the station's impending destruction when he came to be "where it began".

I'm sure it possible to justify it if you want to do that sort of work for JMS, but I can't say its worth it to me. *shrug*


----------



## WayneLigon (Nov 27, 2005)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> Exactly. In Gene Rodenberry's Startrek religion for humans was a non-issue. We had our histories and some people had our beliefs but as a society we evolved beyond the need for faith in a higher power.
> 
> I seem to remember Picard making that point MANY times in the first few seasons of TNG.




Yet the orginal series had them, many times, refer to God or Jesus in ways that made me think that religon was still largely practiced in the Federation. I don't think they ever said they'd 'outgrown' religion. Maybe TNG had that, but by that time I think things were largely out of Roddenberry's control even while he was still alive.


----------



## trancejeremy (Nov 28, 2005)

Actually, in Blake's 7, no one dies. It's all left as a mystery. Apparently because that way, if there was ever a movie or sequel series down the road, whoever wanted to come back could.


----------



## Rackhir (Nov 28, 2005)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Actually, in Blake's 7, no one dies. It's all left as a mystery. Apparently because that way, if there was ever a movie or sequel series down the road, whoever wanted to come back could.




I've always maintained that the next scene after Avon being surrounded with the fade to black and the blaster fire, was him standing there with one of those "Avon Grins" and a circle of dead guards. I loved the end of Blakes 7.

There was a sequel novel writen called "Afterlife" that keeps the only two characters I ever cared about, Avon and Vila. One of the things I liked the best about Blake's 7 was that not only is it one of the few series where the heroes don't win all the time, but in fact they loose consistantly.


----------



## Particle_Man (Nov 28, 2005)

frandelgearslip said:
			
		

> I remember explaining to a friend that by the end of earth final conflict that none of the original characters were left and with one exception none of the characters that replaced the original characters were left.  All the characters were "3rd generation" or later.




What about Sandoval (the Cool-Asian (thank you Mean Girls) villain)?.  I thought he was there for the whole run.


----------



## Dinkeldog (Nov 28, 2005)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> Yet the orginal series had them, many times, refer to God or Jesus in ways that made me think that religon was still largely practiced in the Federation. I don't think they ever said they'd 'outgrown' religion. Maybe TNG had that, but by that time I think things were largely out of Roddenberry's control even while he was still alive.




Just as a little note, this topic would be inappropriate for discussion here.  

I know sometimes it may feel like the no religion rule may be applied too broadly, but there are definitely huge swaths of landscape that could lead to hard feelings at some point, and this is one of those.


----------



## Storm Raven (Nov 28, 2005)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> just to get back to this - the station was in orbit around a planet. (or at least tied to it somehow) the planet had had quite a bit of background plot use, and keeping an outpost near it probably wouldn't be a bad idea. additionally, what with the big planet sized object sitting right beside it, the excuse that it was a "navigation hazard" was particularly rediculous.




There is the possibility that the planet had become a destination in its own right, and landing on the planet had become the norm in that area. Given the nature of the station, that would make it a hazard for navigation.



> _also, since they spend one season independant from earth, I think its been demonstrated that outdated or not, the station could be self sufficient (especially when not embargoed.) There's someone out there that would buy it. (in what we laughingly call the real world, there's some dork living on an abandoned WWII outpost in the ocean and calling himself a country, so we know its possible.)_





The station was paid for via the Babylon Treaty negotiated by Ivanova and Sheridan with the nonaligned worlds, and received significant support from the Minbari religious caste. I doubt those conditions would be replicated again.



> _Also, outdated or not, the thing has value even as scrap._





Scrap that has to be moved to have value. It might very well be more expensive to move the station (or parts of it) to a location where it can be salvaged than it could be to just destroy it.



> _So basicly, it wasn't a hazard to navigation, it wasn't useless, and it wasn't without value. Blowing it up was cheesy._





Basically: you are wrong, you are wrong, and you are wrong.


----------



## Storm Raven (Nov 28, 2005)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> One of these things is not like the others....   maybe it was obsolete as well as old, but log cabins with woodstoves and non-flush toilets are pretty obsolete and yet people buy them all the time.




Sure, but you rarely see military branches or governments investing in them, or keeping them around.


----------



## Kahuna Burger (Nov 28, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Basically: you are wrong, you are wrong, and you are wrong.



nope, that would be "you disagree". A bit of a distinction that escapes many. You are making assumptions to support it as a reasonable ending, I am making some to support it being a cheesy excuse to tie up ill planned prophecies.


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## Pielorinho (Nov 28, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Basically: you are wrong, you are wrong, and you are wrong.



I'm pretty sympathetic to your approach to storytelling:  stories are innocent of plot cheese unless there's no plausible reason for having the plot develop in a certain way, in my opinion. A description of a plausible reason that the plot is cheesy isn't enough for a conviction.

However, the section I quoted above really doesn't strengthen your argument, and it serves only to heighten tensions on the board.  Tensions that I'd really like to see dropping.  Could I persuade you not to say things like that?  Respect that your debating opponents have legitimate positions, even if you disagree strenuously with them.  (If their positions are completely illegitimate, you have nothing to gain from discussing the matter with them, and should probably walk away immediately from the discussion.)

Thanks!
Daniel


----------



## maggot (Nov 28, 2005)

Elf Witch said:
			
		

> Two series endings I really hated were Forever Knight and Blake 7. In both everyone dies. Now Blake 7 was always a grim so I can at least understand why the ending. But Forever Knight was all about Nick trying to become human. They showed it was possible with Janette earler in the season. But they ended it with Nick killing Natalie and then Nick asking Lacroix to kill him. Lame Lame Lame!




Different tastes, I suppose, because I loved the end of Forever Knight.  He fails in his quest to become human and everyone dies.  Bold and well done.  Made me want to watch the series over again and again.


----------



## Storm Raven (Nov 28, 2005)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> nope, that would be "you disagree".




Actually, in at least one case, the storyline distinctly shows the contrary position to be wrong: at no point was the station self-supporting. The Babylon Treaty was required to keep it afloat, with the financial aid of the members of the League of Nonaligned Worlds and the Minbari. Since they were subsumed into the ISA, they would not be around as an independent entity to finance the station any more.

In addition, the idea that the station is not a navigational hazard directly contradicts the statments made in the series. In other words, it is wrong. The station _is_ a navigational hazard, whether you think it should be or not. Given the nature of space travel in the show, it is obvious why the station would be a navigational hazard.

The only opinion based issue here is whether the station could have been used as scrap, and there are plenty of reasons to think it would not be viable for that.



> _A bit of a distinction that escapes many. You are making assumptions to support it as a reasonable ending, I am making some to support it being a cheesy excuse to tie up ill planned prophecies._





Only one thing required assumptions, and that was the most minor. The other two are based on the actual information given by the show, which flatly contradicts your assumptions.


----------



## jasper (Nov 28, 2005)

Yeap instead one HUGE object being a hazard now we have BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of navigational hazards.  I think it could been better  by blowing it up into pieces and then you see the scrap ships move in and collect the pieces.  of course B5 was never total consistent when came to newton's law. Remember the Teddy bear sticking to windshield scene.


----------



## Silver Moon (Nov 28, 2005)

swordsmasher said:
			
		

> Xena, Warrior Princess: I mean, come on!!!!!! the woman takes on the greek god of war and constantly wipes her butt with him, yet she gets decapped by some samurai?



Have to agree with this one - having the main character get decapitated by a lame villain has to win as the worst finale.


----------



## Storm Raven (Nov 28, 2005)

jasper said:
			
		

> Yeap instead one HUGE object being a hazard now we have BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of navigational hazards.




B5 shipps appear not to have too much trouble with small pieces of debris. Running into space junk seems to not be much of a problem for anyone in B5.



> _I think it could been better  by blowing it up into pieces and then you see the scrap ships move in and collect the pieces._





They might have. The shot wasn't on screen long enough to tell.



> _of course B5 was never total consistent when came to newton's law. Remember the Teddy bear sticking to windshield scene._





Physics take a backseat to plot. That's the way it should be.


----------



## DreadPirateMurphy (Nov 28, 2005)

You have to take the word of whatever was actually broadcast on a show like B5.  The commentary on the destruction of the station came from Zack Allen, who, as the security chief, should know enough about it to not be full of BS.

I have no idea WHY it was a hazard to navigation.  I also have only the vaguest idea of how ships in the B5 universe navigate in general.  We can guess, but we only know that the laws of physics seem similar, and stellar and interstellar travel are possible.

It makes sense that it was expensive to run B5.  It also makes sense that you wouldn't just abandon a station like that for somebody else to take over.  It would be hard to move without Vorlon-level technology.  If we take as fact that it was also a hazard, than blowing it into bits for salvage or re-entry makes sense.

Heck, the happy ending for the station is that it survived to be decommissioned.  It was the first in the series of Babylon stations to make it that far.


----------



## DreadPirateMurphy (Nov 28, 2005)

Oh, and _Enterprise_ is the only series ending I've seen that actually was an episode of another series...giving it the award for worst in my book.  It was a mediocre episode, at that.


----------



## Viking Bastard (Nov 28, 2005)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> it was a while back, but I recal a bit where Ivanava met with a group of semi reputable smugglers to keep trade running and docking fees paid in spite of the earth embargo. The minbari were using B5, not keeping it around for charity.



Actually, as Storm Raven points out, they did. B5 was never self-sufficient.



> One of these things is not like the others....   maybe it was obsolete as well as old, but log cabins with woodstoves and non-flush toilets are pretty obsolete and yet people buy them all the time.



It was obsolete because they said they were obsolete. We can't make assumptions on
the B5 universe's economics based on anything but what we see on screen.

Anyway, I just threw out a easily repairable DVD player because it's was cheaper to buy 
a new one. One bad model analogy for another.



> er, I didn't get the impression that sheridan had anything to do with the decision. I thought he was informed of the station's impending destruction when he came to be "where it began".



Perhaps you are right, but it was how I perceived the scene back when I saw it.



> I'm sure it possible to justify it if you want to do that sort of work for JMS, but I can't say its worth it to me. *shrug*



Oh, please. It's also pretty easy to dismiss any intra-series logic because a particular 
scene didn't catch your fancy.


----------



## DonTadow (Nov 28, 2005)

DreadPirateMurphy said:
			
		

> Oh, and _Enterprise_ is the only series ending I've seen that actually was an episode of another series...giving it the award for worst in my book.  It was a mediocre episode, at that.



Yeah that was pretty terrible.  I was trying to explain to some friends the ending of Enterprise and the response from one guy was 
"You mean the only way they could get people to watch the last episode of the series was to present it as a bad episode of a much better show".  

Sad thing is that after DS9 they had so many GOOD ideas for shows.  Hopefully they'll pick back up the universe right after DS9.


----------



## Desdichado (Nov 28, 2005)

nothing to see here said:
			
		

> Kinda like kissing a pretty girl after a first date and finding out that she actually has no teeth.



That's not so bad; you just tell her to kiss you a little lower...

Anyway, I _didn't_ like the ending to Newhart, but then again, I was just a few years too late, I guess, and never really understood what the big deal with the Bob Newhart show was, whereas I grew up with Newhart.  Of course, after it kinda turned into the Larry, Daryl and Daryl show the last few seasons, I was ready for it to end, I suppose.

I also hated the Seinfield finale--total disappointment.  I still think of it as a clip show too, and the big joke of the whole episode; that all the jerks to to prison, just wasn't a funny enough joke to pin an entire episode on, much less a series finale.

I hated the Mad About You finale, where Paul Rieser and Helen Hunt were divorced and it's told from the point of view of their grown daughter, but then again, I hated that show anyway.  I'm not quite sure how my wife convinced me to watch as many episodes as I did.  Although that show really did make Paul Rieser's death scene in _Aliens_ that much more satisfying to me, at least.


----------



## Kahuna Burger (Nov 28, 2005)

DreadPirateMurphy said:
			
		

> You have to take the word of whatever was actually broadcast on a show like B5.  The commentary on the destruction of the station came from Zack Allen, who, as the security chief, should know enough about it to not be full of BS.



well, being as this is a thread about series endings that people find cheesy, I suppose every single opinion can be invalidated by the supremacy of in-story logic.   I found it cheesy to fulfill the different phrophecies of B5 being destroyed with a weakly excused intentional "boom". I appologize for the part I played in actually going back and forth and arguing what ifs on that opinion.


----------



## sniffles (Nov 28, 2005)

@Kahuna Burger:
Joe Straczinsky had the entire show plotted out for its full 5-year arc, so if he wrote a prophecy that said B5 was going to blow up, it was going to blow up.   

In my observation of other peoples' reactions to series' endings, the only thing that makes a series ending seem "cheesy" is the fact that it's the _end_. People who really enjoy a show don't want it to end. So they will usually consider the ending 'bad' no matter how it's done.


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## Vigilance (Nov 28, 2005)

I have to give the nod to Enterprise.

Plenty of finales are bad, its a very very hard thing to do. TV by its very nature is supposed to last, so when you end it, doing so in a way that leaves the fans feeling satisfied is hard.

DS9's ending was really rough for me, since it was a show I wanted to last as long as Gunsmoke. The X-Files' ending reminded me why it had gone from being a "must see" to an "occasional watch if I remember to tape it".

But Enterprise? Very very rarely do you feel as though a TV show has actually flipped you off. 

That was *exactly* how the finale of Enterprise made me feel.

It left such a bad taste in my mouth that I am *glad* they put the franchise on hiatus. I would not have watched any series that started soon after that.

Chuck


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## Vigilance (Nov 28, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> A side note about turning all the potentials into Slayers, from a gaming perspective.  That's an example I always use in Mage of a Prime 6 level effect: Making a worldwide metaphysical change.
> 
> Personally, I thought it was a really cool scene, and I loved the Buffy finale.



Agreed.

Also, it serves as rich ground for new series (and they did touch on it in the 5th season of Angel, with the Slayer who was *insane*).

As for the Slayers having no guidance, that was the new mission for the Scoobies. In the Angel Episode with the insane slayer, its revealed that Xander is tracking down new Slayers in Africa, Willow and Kennedy in S. America and Buffy in Europe.

Giles was rebuilding the Watchers' council who were going to do what they had always done, train the Slayers. 

Also, making Buffy not be the one and only solved a problem for Joss doing things with the Buffy-verse in the future: he didn't have to kill Buffy to do another series or comic about a Slayer.

To me, a series about a slayer that had to begin with "and this is how Buffy died offscreen" would suck and Joss knew it. 

BTW- did I mention that Joss is trying to get a new show on the air and that I cant wait? 

Chuck


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## Crothian (Nov 28, 2005)

DreadPirateMurphy said:
			
		

> Oh, and _Enterprise_ is the only series ending I've seen that actually was an episode of another series...giving it the award for worst in my book.  It was a mediocre episode, at that.




Bob newheart did something like that, only less obvious and much better done


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## Kahuna Burger (Nov 28, 2005)

sniffles said:
			
		

> @Kahuna Burger:
> Joe Straczinsky had the entire show plotted out for its full 5-year arc, so if he wrote a prophecy that said B5 was going to blow up, it was going to blow up.




so says the church of Joe.    Things were changed due to actors leaving, the possible lack of a 5th season, etc. I don't know if jms had a different ending in fire planned orriginally or not. 



> In my observation of other peoples' reactions to series' endings, the only thing that makes a series ending seem "cheesy" is the fact that it's the _end_. People who really enjoy a show don't want it to end. So they will usually consider the ending 'bad' no matter how it's done.



If I had retained any respect for B5 after the disaster of the 5th season, I could get behind this theory.


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## DreadPirateMurphy (Nov 29, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Bob newheart did something like that, only less obvious and much better done




I stand corrected.

That, however, was FUNNY.  The saddest thing about Enterprise is that the people running the show thought that ending it that way was a tribute instead of an insult.


----------



## Elf Witch (Nov 29, 2005)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Actually, in Blake's 7, no one dies. It's all left as a mystery. Apparently because that way, if there was ever a movie or sequel series down the road, whoever wanted to come back could.




I disagree you see Blake get gunned down blood flowing free. Then you see everyone but Avon go down . But he is surronded at the end and then you hear the guns go off as the picture fades.

Terry Nation was furious about the ending and wrote so in many articles. The producers of the last season said on record that everyone was dead. The actor who played Blake agreed to come back only if Blake was killed.

Now yes there is wiggle room you can claim the it was actually Blake's clone that died and the rest were just stunned.  There has been tons of fanfic written to that effect.  Oh and I always maintained that in the end Avon hit the floor and the guards shot each other.


----------



## Elf Witch (Nov 29, 2005)

maggot said:
			
		

> Different tastes, I suppose, because I loved the end of Forever Knight.  He fails in his quest to become human and everyone dies.  Bold and well done.  Made me want to watch the series over again and again.




I did not consider it bold it was a cop out. That is how I felt and judging from the hundreds of fanfic and all the chatter on the boards and email lists that I belonged to at the time a lot of die hard fans felt the same. 

It was supposed to be tragic and all. But to me it felt like a slap in the face. Now I assume everyone pretty much dies in the finale of Amgel you know Wes is dead and Gunn is on his way out in about ten miinutes. But that ending never bothered me. They had just slammed evil one hard and were going out like heroes. In Forever Knight it was just depressing there was no point other than Nick was not as strong as Janette and could not pull away from Natalie in time.

If earlier in the season they had not shown that it was possible for a vampire to become human then maybe it would not have been such a let down.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Nov 29, 2005)

The series ending with B5 getting demolished after being out of use and no longer supported was bad?  :\   
"Well they would have created a bigger navigational hazard with all that debris...".   Maybe that debris was then collected...or who honestly cares?


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## Kahuna Burger (Nov 29, 2005)

Elf Witch said:
			
		

> In Forever Knight it was just depressing there was no point other than Nick was not as strong as Janette and could not pull away from Natalie in time.
> 
> If earlier in the season they had not shown that it was possible for a vampire to become human then maybe it would not have been such a let down.



yeah, basicly the guy who's been practicing self control and growth for nigh on these many years *accidentally* drained the woman he loved completely of blood.   Where did that come from? I guess some could enjoy it as a tragic ending for a tragic character, but it didn't work for me at all.


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## Rackhir (Nov 29, 2005)

Elf Witch said:
			
		

> I disagree you see Blake get gunned down blood flowing free. Then you see everyone but Avon go down . But he is surronded at the end and then you hear the guns go off as the picture fades.




I loved that last scene between Avon and Blake . "You betrayed us?!? Betrayed ME!!!"


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## Atavar (Nov 29, 2005)

*God in Star Trek*

Hello Everyone,

Just a quick comment on earlier posts about the lack of God in Star Trek.  I don't know what Gene Roddenberry's personal belief's were, but if you look closely enough there is an occasional reference to God here and there.

What comes to mind for me is that episode from the original series (I think it's called "Who Mourns for Adonis?") where the crew actually meet Apollo.  In the show, he's not truly a god...he was one of a group of aliens with what seemed to be god-like powers who were worshipped by the ancient Greeks long ago.

Anyway, Apollo wants the Enterprise crew to worship him as a god, and Kirk says something like, "We're happy with the one we have."  Subtle, yes, but a rare enough reference to stand out in my mind.

There's another original series episode ("Bread and Circuses" I believe) where the crew finds a parallel, 20th-century Earth where the Roman Empire never ended.  They meet some escaped slaves who worshipped "The Sun."

Or so the crew believed, until they spoke with Uhura at the end of the episode.  She had been monitoring the planet's TV and radio transmissions, and told the crew that the escaped slaves didn't worship the sun in the sky, but rather "The Son of God."  Then Kirk said something like "we had our Christ, and they had theirs."

Anyway, not here to offend anyone...I just thought it was interesting to point out a couple of God references in Star Trek, since they are few and far between.

To stick to topic, what was the worst series ending for me?  "Sledge Hammer."  Remember that show?  It was a cop-comedy whose main character was a little too close to his gun.  In the last episode, he and his partner are trying to disarm a nuclear bomb before it blows up the city.  Either they run out of time are pull the wrong wire or something, because they fail.  The entire city is destroyed.  The last shot of the show, a view of the devastated city, is punctuated by the distant, angry cry of Hammer's boss, crying out, "Hammer!"

Kind of a bummer ending to a comedy series.

Later,

Atavar

-----

"You are not God!"  -- Jean-Luc Picard, to Q in the episode "Tapestry"


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Nov 29, 2005)

I don't think Kirk said we are happy with the one we have.  The whole theme of that show was that Humanity had outgrown the need for gods.  I'll watch it tonight and post the exact words.


----------



## Kahuna Burger (Nov 29, 2005)

I've realized that the B5 ending was stolen from Little House on the Prairie. 

Bear with me here.

Ending takes place several years after the main series.

Setting of the series is destroyed.

Destruction was voluntarily done by the characters.

Main character(s) leave to an unknown destination, in a spiritual mood.


----------



## Hypersmurf (Nov 29, 2005)

Atavar said:
			
		

> To stick to topic, what was the worst series ending for me?  "Sledge Hammer."  Remember that show?  It was a cop-comedy whose main character was a little too close to his gun.  In the last episode, he and his partner are trying to disarm a nuclear bomb before it blows up the city.  Either they run out of time are pull the wrong wire or something, because they fail.  The entire city is destroyed.  The last shot of the show, a view of the devastated city, is punctuated by the distant, angry cry of Hammer's boss, crying out, "Hammer!"
> 
> Kind of a bummer ending to a comedy series.




That's the last episode of season 1.  Season 2 is set prior to that episode, though 

-Hyp.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Nov 29, 2005)

Atavar said:
			
		

> Hello Everyone,
> 
> 
> To stick to topic, what was the worst series ending for me?  "Sledge Hammer."  Remember that show?  It was a cop-comedy whose main character was a little too close to his gun.  In the last episode, he and his partner are trying to disarm a nuclear bomb before it blows up the city.  Either they run out of time are pull the wrong wire or something, because they fail.  The entire city is destroyed.  The last shot of the show, a view of the devastated city, is punctuated by the distant, angry cry of Hammer's boss, crying out, "Hammer!"
> ...



Actually that sounds like a riot of an ending.


----------



## BiggusGeekus (Nov 29, 2005)

Nice commentary from all.  My two cents:

B5: For me, the last episode was at the end of Season 4 where we get to see the progression of humanity into the future.  Season 5 was basically leftover bits of Season 4 from when they thought they were going to get the series axed so they tied up as many loose ends as they could and suddenly realized they had the last season after all.

DS9: Meh.  Sisko says he could possibly be back "in a year".  I guess they thought they had a shot at a movie.

Forever Knight: I liked the ending, but I wasn't a fan of the show.  There was a slow build up to it though.  We saw minor characters die in the runup to the end.  

Star Trek TNG: I liked the last episode better than the movies.  

Twin Peaks: OMG!  What a way to end a season only to find out there's no more show!  Yikes.

Battlestar Galactica (original): The lead up to this was nice.  They find Earth but don't even realize it and move on.  But there were a couple of "gotcha" episodes before then making you think they had really found it this time.

Cheers: Average.  A nice way to end the show, but nothing stunning.

x-files: hated it.  So the aliens could be run off by this special mineral that we couldn't produce even though the show had encounterd a half-dozen beings with "wish" level powers.  The big conspiracy is that the government was keeping this all secret because ... well, because otherwise there would be no show.  Stupid.


----------



## Particle_Man (Nov 30, 2005)

Well, with the belgian unicef commercial, the technical "ending" for The Smurfs is their village getting the crap bombed out of it with Warplanes.  Dead Smurfette, Baby Smurf crying alone with a broken toy, etc.

Actually, I don't mind that (I imagine Gargamel flying one of the planes), but it might upset some kids, I guess.


----------



## Elf Witch (Nov 30, 2005)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> I loved that last scene between Avon and Blake . "You betrayed us?!? Betrayed ME!!!"




Yep that was a great scene. It really hit home how much Blake had influenced Avon. I love Blake 7 the best seasons are the first two when you had the great dynamic between Blake and Avon.


----------



## Elf Witch (Nov 30, 2005)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> yeah, basicly the guy who's been practicing self control and growth for nigh on these many years *accidentally* drained the woman he loved completely of blood.   Where did that come from? I guess some could enjoy it as a tragic ending for a tragic character, but it didn't work for me at all.




That's my big problem with it as well it was out of character for Nick. That entire last season had a lot of really bad flaws in it. The entire Tracy and Vashon story line for one.  

As far as I am concered the last episode was just one of Nick's nightmares.


----------



## swordsmasher (Nov 30, 2005)

Now, if I remember correctly, you don't actually see lacroix spike Nick. I think the episode ends with Lacroix saying something like "I will do this for you" blah blah and then lifting the spike, and that was that. If i remember correctly. I say this because i heard a rumor somewhere a long time ago that sci-fi was gonna do a tv movie or something, but never did (as with many other shows that got canned).

As for gods in Star Trek, just the other day I watched a re-run of Next Gen and they discovered a genetic dna puzzle that was a computer program, that revealed the major races of the universe were all seeded by a super intelligent humanoid species like millions of years ago or something. Remarkably the women looked and sounded a lot like the Head Changeling of the Dominion (Odo's mum?) Apparently they were lonely so they decided that a few Klingons would cheer the place up. lol


----------



## Elf Witch (Nov 30, 2005)

swordsmasher said:
			
		

> Now, if I remember correctly, you don't actually see lacroix spike Nick. I think the episode ends with Lacroix saying something like "I will do this for you" blah blah and then lifting the spike, and that was that. If i remember correctly. I say this because i heard a rumor somewhere a long time ago that sci-fi was gonna do a tv movie or something, but never did (as with many other shows that got canned).
> 
> As for gods in Star Trek, just the other day I watched a re-run of Next Gen and they discovered a genetic dna puzzle that was a computer program, that revealed the major races of the universe were all seeded by a super intelligent humanoid species like millions of years ago or something. Remarkably the women looked and sounded a lot like the Head Changeling of the Dominion (Odo's mum?) Apparently they were lonely so they decided that a few Klingons would cheer the place up. lol




You are right you don't see it which has lead to countless fanfic stories.  Lacroix dosn't spike him and he brings Nat across are the most popular.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Nov 30, 2005)

swordsmasher said:
			
		

> Now, if I remember correctly, you don't actually see lacroix spike Nick. I think the episode ends with Lacroix saying something like "I will do this for you" blah blah and then lifting the spike, and that was that. If i remember correctly. I say this because i heard a rumor somewhere a long time ago that sci-fi was gonna do a tv movie or something, but never did (as with many other shows that got canned).
> 
> As for gods in Star Trek, just the other day I watched a re-run of Next Gen and they discovered a genetic dna puzzle that was a computer program, that revealed the major races of the universe were all seeded by a super intelligent humanoid species like millions of years ago or something. Remarkably the women looked and sounded a lot like the Head Changeling of the Dominion (Odo's mum?) Apparently they were lonely so they decided that a few Klingons would cheer the place up. lol



Though that's no indication that they are actually related, especially since the founder and their "generic humanoid" shape (make up) was made up later - and it's not their natural shape...

Though, maybe the reason why Founders use this similar shape is because they "instinctively" noticed the true orgin ("spirit") of all those humanoid shapes they encountered.


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## Atavar (Nov 30, 2005)

*Star Trek Quote?*

So, Flexor, did you get a chance to watch that Star Trek episode and get Kirk's exact quote?  What was it?

Thanks,

Atavar


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## mojo1701 (Nov 30, 2005)

swordsmasher said:
			
		

> As for gods in Star Trek, just the other day I watched a re-run of Next Gen and they discovered a genetic dna puzzle that was a computer program, that revealed the major races of the universe were all seeded by a super intelligent humanoid species like millions of years ago or something. Remarkably the women looked and sounded a lot like the Head Changeling of the Dominion (Odo's mum?) Apparently they were lonely so they decided that a few Klingons would cheer the place up. lol




It wasn't his mom; just another changeling that had the opportunity to get close to him.

Oh, and it was the same actress.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Nov 30, 2005)

Atavar said:
			
		

> So, Flexor, did you get a chance to watch that Star Trek episode and get Kirk's exact quote?  What was it?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Atavar




Nope.  I was running around all night after work.  I'm going to try again to watch it tonight, hopefully my brother doesn't have that particular DVD.


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## DonTadow (Nov 30, 2005)

mojo1701 said:
			
		

> It wasn't his mom; just another changeling that had the opportunity to get close to him.
> 
> Oh, and it was the same actress.




EWWWW I should hope that was not his mom, less ODO has some freudian things he needs to work out. 

Remember the episode where they "conjoined" as humans do and not as changlings because she wanted to know what it was like.  

Oh well there goes breakfast.


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## sniffles (Nov 30, 2005)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> I've realized that the B5 ending was stolen from Little House on the Prairie.
> 
> Bear with me here.
> 
> ...



 

My fiancee reminded me yesterday of a series ending that really sucked for me. And in this case I have to go back on my own claim that people dislike series endings just because they're endings. This one did suck.   

It's a show not many Americans are likely to have seen, though: _Sapphire and Steel_. It's from the late '70/early '80s, starring Joanna Lumley (AbFab) and David McCallum (NCIS). They played mysterious, inhuman agents of some unexplained force/entity/organization that was responsible for making sure time didn't get "off track". The series finale didn't actually kill off the heroes, but it might as well have done.


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## Rackhir (Nov 30, 2005)

sniffles said:
			
		

> It's a show not many Americans are likely to have seen, though: _Sapphire and Steel_. It's from the late '70/early '80s, starring Joanna Lumley (AbFab) and David McCallum (NCIS). They played mysterious, inhuman agents of some unexplained force/entity/organization that was responsible for making sure time didn't get "off track". The series finale didn't actually kill off the heroes, but it might as well have done.




This has actually been released on DVD over here, there's a boxed set available for 50 or 60 bucks, iirc.


----------



## Storm Raven (Nov 30, 2005)

I'd have to say one of my least favorite series enders was Farscape. Not because of any fault of the writers - trying to fit an entire season's worth of plot developments into a four hour miniseries just doesn't work very well. I blame the network which picked them up for a fifth season, and then dropped them after the fourth.


----------



## farscapesg1 (Nov 30, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> I'd have to say one of my least favorite series enders was Farscape. Not because of any fault of the writers - trying to fit an entire season's worth of plot developments into a four hour miniseries just doesn't work very well. I blame the network which picked them up for a fifth season, and then dropped them after the fourth.




Here, Here!!  Not to mention the fact that the same network insisted on making changes in the beginning of the 4th season to make it easier for "new viewers to catch on".  By year 4, if you haven't been watching it you probably won't, so stick to what keeps your loyal fans happy instead of trying to dumb things down for the masses


----------



## sniffles (Nov 30, 2005)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> This has actually been released on DVD over here, there's a boxed set available for 50 or 60 bucks, iirc.



Yes, I know. But we already have the Australian release. I hope my complaint about the ending doesn't keep people from watching it. It's still a really good series.


----------



## Elf Witch (Dec 1, 2005)

sniffles said:
			
		

> Yes, I know. But we already have the Australian release. I hope my complaint about the ending doesn't keep people from watching it. It's still a really good series.




It is a great series and I have only ever seen it fifth gen VHS recording. What a horrible picture. You have to squint to really see it.  

Getting the DVDs are on my wish list.


----------



## Green Knight (Dec 1, 2005)

> Besides, even if that were wise, the last two episodes had way too many Deus Ex Machinas to be decent. The two crazy artifacts, Willow's sudden realization that she could cast a spell to create dozens of superheroes from scratch, and the utter rediculous of Buffy's plan come together to make one cruddy ending.




No kidding. That's one of the things that gets my goat about it. How many Deus Ex Machina's could they cram into a series finale? It seemed like they were intent on finding out. With the scythe, the amulet, Willow's sudden ability to create Slayers, it was a bit much. Then again, both seasons 6 and 7 were incredibly weak. Far as I'm concerned, Buffy the Vampire Slayer was only 5 seasons long, with a couple stand-alone episodes made afterwards. That was it. 

As for Babylon 5... 



> One of these things is not like the others....  maybe it was obsolete as well as old, but log cabins with woodstoves and non-flush toilets are pretty obsolete and yet people buy them all the time.




And how many of them are packed to the brim with artillery, missile batteries, and all kinds of other weapons, and parked right alongside the interstate highway, in a prime position where they can shoot the hell out of any motorists driving by? 

It was a navigational hazard not just because it was parked right between the jump gate and the planet it was in orbit of, but because of the possibility of some rogue group, like pirates, taking over the place and using it as a base of operations. And considering how tough it proved in the past, it'd cost an enormous amount of lives to eliminate any pirates or anyone else who takes up residence on Babylon 5. THAT'S why it had to be blown up. It was to expensive to maintain (Especially since pretty much everyone had anti-grav tech at that point. A similar sized base with Minbari anti-grav tech would likely be MUCH cheaper to maintain then B5), it wasn't worthwhile to defend, but they just couldn't leave it out there and allow any schmuck to come along and take possession of it. 

So wouldn't you say that having a manned and armed space station right at the entrance of a jump gate would be hazardous to space travel in that solar system? Especially if you're trying to get down to the planet below? It wouldn't be hazardous to have pirates going through that same jump gate and attacking ships in other systems, and being able to return to B5 to resupply? 

As for the question of scrap, a lot easier to collect scrap when it's a bunch of little pieces, rather then one big piece. Blowing it apart was likely the quickest way to get that scrap. Taking it apart rivet by rivet would've more then likely taken a LOT longer and more effort for no real gain, since the whole point of scrap is that you smelt it down and reforge it. Doesn't really matter if it's charred at the edges or not.


----------



## Kahuna Burger (Dec 1, 2005)

Green Knight said:
			
		

> No kidding. That's one of the things that gets my goat about it. How many Deus Ex Machina's could they cram into a series finale? It seemed like they were intent on finding out. With the scythe, the amulet, Willow's sudden ability to create Slayers, it was a bit much.




well, just to nitpick, willow used the scythe as a powerful slayer artifact to allow her to awaken the slayers... So those two are really only one.   

I'm ok with that finale, but it seems to bug a lot of people... would have been nice to spread out those plot points a bit more.


----------



## DonTadow (Dec 1, 2005)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> well, just to nitpick, willow used the scythe as a powerful slayer artifact to allow her to awaken the slayers... So those two are really only one.
> 
> I'm ok with that finale, but it seems to bug a lot of people... would have been nice to spread out those plot points a bit more.



The scythe/ slayer thing actually made sense from the series historical magic point of view.  Willow used the spell she used to awaken one slayer's power, and magnified it using the artifact weapon.  The fadct that the weapon went unnoticed in an unnoticed crypt for centuries in Sunnydale (when thers other hell mouths around) was silly.  All the writers had to do was put the crypt in another city or far off place to add some believablity.  But as previously slated they were rushing. 

Waht didn't make sense and what no one can explain is what the HECK was the plan in teh first place.  Ok she was going to awaken the slayers ( i bought that) but what were they going to do, kill all the vampires in there.  they had no method to deal wit hthe hell mouth (becuse they knew nothing of the charm necklace's power.  There wasnt even a vision or a manual on the thing.  Quite silly and annoying.  I still would like to know if anyone knew what that dang original plan was?


----------



## swordsmasher (Dec 2, 2005)

I believe they were hoping the amulet was an Amulet of Magic Missiles, that way Spike could attack the darkness with his magic missile.


----------



## James Heard (Dec 3, 2005)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> My worst ending (which ranks lower than some of the others mentioned but frustrated me none the less) Quantum Leap.  All the emotions you went through with Sam and Al and he doesnt get back home.  That was depressing in that the reason you watched every week was the see his adventures and hope he eventually got back home.




Man, I couldn't disagree more. I think Quantum Leap was probably the best series ending I can recall. Seriously, I have to avoid that thing when flipping through reruns, because its such a perfect continuation of earlier episodes with enough "here's what's really going on" to be grand. Plus, it's _respectful_. I don't know how else to vocalize it. I mean, in tone it's everything that Enterprise's final episode wasn't. 

Of course, to be fair I vaguely remember seeing the MASH final episode and thinking that was awesome too.


----------



## DonTadow (Dec 3, 2005)

James Heard said:
			
		

> Man, I couldn't disagree more. I think Quantum Leap was probably the best series ending I can recall. Seriously, I have to avoid that thing when flipping through reruns, because its such a perfect continuation of earlier episodes with enough "here's what's really going on" to be grand. Plus, it's _respectful_. I don't know how else to vocalize it. I mean, in tone it's everything that Enterprise's final episode wasn't.
> 
> Of course, to be fair I vaguely remember seeing the MASH final episode and thinking that was awesome too.



But the thing is Quantum Leap didn't end, it just kept going on without us knowing about it.  I would have rather him died in the last episode (as i thought they were going) as opposed to have him continue the show without the viewers.


----------



## Samnell (Dec 3, 2005)

Atavar said:
			
		

> Just a quick comment on earlier posts about the lack of God in Star Trek.  I don't know what Gene Roddenberry's personal belief's were




He was an atheist and a secular humanist. A search of the internet can find any number of quotations of his on the subject of gods and religions which are...less than flattering. Such quotes are surely way beyond the limits of the board's no religion and politics rule.


----------



## Elemental (Dec 5, 2005)

maggot said:
			
		

> I liked the DS9 ending.  It wasn't all happy as at least one major character bites it.  I didn't see the last B5 as the final season kind of meandered and kind of sucked.




The thing that I could never understand was the leaders of the Federation sitting down and making peace with the very individual who had personally ordered the _genocide_ of the Cardassians for no good reason, shortly before.


The ending of _Buffy_ was...not bad exactly, but it felt like it had been trimmed down from a double episode, and there were some serious WTF moments. For example--"We've no idea what this artifact does, or what it's meant for. Let's use it in a ritual to transform everyone into real Slayers, on the off-chance it works."

That said, I did like the revelation that there wasn't actually any grand mystical reason there couldn't be multiple Slayers, it was simply calcified tradition. And the axe / stake weapon was a nice easter egg for those who had read _Fray_ (a comic series written by Whedon, set in a cyberpunk future world and following the first Slayer to appear in centuries--well worth a look).


I actually liked _Mortal Kombat: Conquest_ up till the end. More cheese than a dairy farm, but the fight scenes were entertaining, there was a nice metaplot developing, and it was fun spotting stuff from the games (such as the Black Dragon clan or the Reptiles). And at the end, Shao Khan breaks out a bunch of invincible assassins never seen before, which kill the rest of the cast, even the characters who were supposed to survive into the present. It came across as an RPG where the players have really pissed of the GM, so he arbitarily declares all the characters have been killed.


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## mojo1701 (Dec 5, 2005)

Elemental said:
			
		

> The thing that I could never understand was the leaders of the Federation sitting down and making peace with the very individual who had personally ordered the _genocide_ of the Cardassians for no good reason, shortly before.




What, the Female Changeling? She was to undergo a war crimes trial.


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## Black Omega (Dec 6, 2005)

Elemental said:
			
		

> I actually liked _Mortal Kombat: Conquest_ up till the end. More cheese than a dairy farm, but the fight scenes were entertaining, there was a nice metaplot developing, and it was fun spotting stuff from the games (such as the Black Dragon clan or the Reptiles). And at the end, Shao Khan breaks out a bunch of invincible assassins never seen before, which kill the rest of the cast, even the characters who were supposed to survive into the present. It came across as an RPG where the players have really pissed of the GM, so he arbitarily declares all the characters have been killed.



To be honest, I liked Mortal Kombat, the TV series.  Kinda wished I'd taped it.  It started bland but after a while they seemed to realize the villains were interesting and the heros were bland, so the show focused on the villains plots  and betrayals and the heros were just caught up in the middle.  Add in plenty of bikini clad martial arts girls.  And an ending where they said 'screw it, everyone dies, the heros lose.'


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## Nuclear Platypus (Dec 6, 2005)

Ditto on the Farscape remarks. Several threads were too quickly tied up (return of Jool and Jothee, "Sputnik" not quite dying, the Human / Sebecean connection and their relationship to the Eidelons) for my tastes. 

Married... With Children kinda fizzled out and a couple of cast members didn't know the show was cancelled til they read about it IIRC. But there were only so many twists on plot lines they could do. Kind of sad for a flagship show that put Fox in contention with the Big Three networks.

Transformers! Remember how big the "Return of Optimus Prime" was? They could've left off with the movie where all the old toys die to make room for the new ones but the absolute finale had Optimus Prime returning to use the Matrix as a cure for the Hate Plague as well as returning as the leader of the Autobots. IIRC, the GI Joe movie (with Cobra-La) was something of a test since Duke was supposed to die yet they changed the dialogue at the end with him somehow surviving the snake arrow through the chest. "Shot through the heart and Serpentor's to blame." To add insult to injury, they shark jump with Cobra Commander returning somewhat to human shape, Serpentor devolved into a snake and the formation of the Python Patrol or somesuch to milk a lil more toys out of the franchise.

While Brisco County Jr at least tied up all the loose ends (that I recall anyways), the ending didn't feel right given how much Fox had to have spent on its ad campaign for that show. I mean there wasn't even a Christmas themed episode!

Didn't the War of the Worlds series have something of a craptacular ending with an even moreso reboot?

Mystery Science Theater 3000! Man, that ending was lamer than a 2 legged horse.

Samurai Jack. At least they could've ended it where the foolish samurai warrior finally beats the mighty Aku then returns to the past to set things right. They did it with Trunks in Dragonball Z (sort of). And the "lost episodes" were the final four that Cartoon Network was just sitting on.

Star Wars: Clone Wars. Hellooooo? What the heck kinda ending is that? It's like it was some sort of leadin to a movie.

The Flash. Man, I wanted to see that one last longer maybe facing more of his Rogue's Gallery (Trickster was it wasn't he?). Heck, the Hulk finally ended when the Not So Jolly Green Giant fell out of a plane, changing back to David Banner before crashing. I suppose that's sort of final but no Shehulk?


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## Elemental (Dec 6, 2005)

mojo1701 said:
			
		

> What, the Female Changeling? She was to undergo a war crimes trial.




I could swear I remember seeing her at the treaty signing. I'll have to watch it again.


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## mojo1701 (Dec 6, 2005)

Elemental said:
			
		

> I could swear I remember seeing her at the treaty signing. I'll have to watch it again.




She was. She would agree to the war crimes tribunal and the unconditional surrender because of Odo.


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## Kesh (Dec 7, 2005)

Right. She agreed to end the war and stand trial in exchange for Odo curing the Founders of the plague.


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## JEL (Dec 7, 2005)

The one series ending that I absolutely hate with an undying passion is Blue Gender's.  Basically, they decide that it's all a bad Nausicaa rip-off and that humans are better off living as subsistance level hunter/gatherers.  Oh and living in space makes you suiciadally insane.  I was actually enjoying the show up till about the last half dozen episodes or so.  Now I can't stand any of it.


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