# Charging with Spring Attack?



## Tyrloch (Mar 22, 2009)

Hi,

   I'm building a Scout, and I'm wondering once I have Spring Attack, can I move double my movement on a Charge (60-80ft), attack at somewhere around 40 or 50ft, then move another 10-20ft? I suppose my question really is can I move before and after the attack on a charge if I have the Spring Attack feat? Any suggestions? Thanks.

~Jace


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## pawsplay (Mar 22, 2009)

> Charging is a *special full-round action *that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. However, it carries tight restrictions on how you can move.
> 
> ...
> Movement During a Charge
> You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent.






> Attack
> Making an attack is a standard action.






> Spring Attack [General]
> Prerequisites
> Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4.
> 
> ...




So as you can see, if a charge involved the attack action, there would be some ambiguity, but as it turns out, you cannot take the kind of action specified in Spring Attack.


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## Tyrloch (Mar 22, 2009)

Okay, what if I have a 40ft movement, I move 10ft on the Charge, attack, and then move another 30ft? Can that be done?


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## Vegepygmy (Mar 22, 2009)

Tyrloch said:


> Okay, what if I have a 40ft movement, I move 10ft on the Charge, attack, and then move another 30ft? Can that be done?



You would need to have some ability that allows you to move both before and after making an attack (and as you now know, Spring Attack doesn't work when charging).  So...do you?


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## Tyrloch (Mar 22, 2009)

Why exactly doesn't Spring Attack work? As long as I move 5ft before & after the attack, and don't move further than my listed speed...why won't it work?


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## StreamOfTheSky (Mar 22, 2009)

Have you considered the Ride-by Attack feat?  It does mostly what you want.  You would either need to be mounted or play a centaur (or similar) race, though.

Why doesn't spring attack work?  Because it lets you take an attack action (as a standard action, basically) between your move action.  Charge is a full round action.

Yes, partial charge is a standard action, but you can only do a partial charge when limited to just a standard action (like the surprise round of combat, or if you're a zombie).  Without a move action as well, even on a partial charge you could not use spring attack.


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## frankthedm (Mar 22, 2009)

Tyrloch said:


> Why exactly doesn't Spring Attack work? As long as I move 5ft before & after the attack, and don't move further than my listed speed...why won't it work?



Because spring attack utilizes the Attack Action while Charge is a separate full round action unto itself.

*Spring Attack [General]*

*Prerequisites*
Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4. 

*Benefit*
When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can’t use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor. 
      You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack. 
*Special*

      A fighter may select Spring Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.


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## Sparafucile (Mar 28, 2009)

Charging is a full round action in and of itself. Spring Attack modifes a single move + single standard action, essentially splitting the move betwen the attack. . . 

What YOU want to do is have your cake and eat it too. . . gain a double move of charge, a +2 attack bonus, and end your turn out of threat range, i.e. single move + single standard action (+2 bonus to hit) + single move.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Mar 28, 2009)

That being said, there ARE rules-legal ways to do it.  For example, the Sudden Leap maneuver after a charge.  My friend created a "Run-by Attack" feat to add to the Spring Attack feat tree.  No one's even taken it yet far as I'm aware.


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## Starbuck_II (Mar 28, 2009)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> Yes, partial charge is a standard action, but you can only do a partial charge when limited to just a standard action (like the surprise round of combat, or if you're a zombie). Without a move action as well, even on a partial charge you could not use spring attack.




 Wait, so while slowed you can use Spring attack while charging (sinve it is a standard action)? You don't use up a move action to use Spring attack.

So it seems you can while slowed.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Mar 29, 2009)

No.  You can only do a partial charge when limited to a standard action.  And it consumes your standard action.  You could be slowed, a zombie, on a surprise round, whatever.  In any case, if you make a partial charge, you won't have another move action to take afterwards.  That's all I was saying.

Thsi reminds me, though.  In MIC, there's Boots of the Battle Charger.  Costs only like 2k and as a 2/day, you can charge as a standard action.  Which means you would have your move action to take afterwards.  Course, you'd better have tumble ranks to leave melee like that...


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## Starbuck_II (Mar 29, 2009)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> No. You can only do a partial charge when limited to a standard action. And it consumes your standard action. You could be slowed, a zombie, on a surprise round, whatever. In any case, if you make a partial charge, you won't have another move action to take afterwards. That's all I was saying.




No, Spring attack doesn't use move action up. It just lets you get a free move after moving before attack (like a Charge).

So a Partial Charge uses up standard action and you can now move (not an action) because of the feat after attacking.


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## frankthedm (Mar 29, 2009)

Starbuck_II said:


> So a Partial Charge uses up standard action and you can now move (not an action) because of the feat after attacking.



You can't do this in 3.5 because the charge is its own action.


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## akbearfoot (Mar 29, 2009)

Charging explicitly takes you in a straight line from where you are up to your opponent where you immediately stop and make a melee attack.  The movement must be in as straight line and you are not allowed to move past them.  So even if spring attack wasn't restricted to standard action at all, you still could not benefit from it with a charge because of the rigid movement restrictions.


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## Hypersmurf (Mar 29, 2009)

Starbuck_II said:


> No, Spring attack doesn't use move action up. It just lets you get a free move after moving before attack (like a Charge).
> 
> So a Partial Charge uses up standard action and you can now move (not an action) because of the feat after attacking.




There are a few things wrong with this.

1. Spring Attack _does_ require a move action, but the wording in the PHB is incorrect.  It was corrected in the Special Edition PHB - it now says "When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can _split your move action_..." rather than "you can move..."

(Basically, the definition of a standard action changed between 3E and 3.5 - in 3E, a standard action included a move, so "the attack action" in 3E included a move but in 3.5 it does not.  But the wording of the Spring Attack feat in the initial printing of the 3.5 PHB used phrasing as though the attack action still included a move.)

2. Even in the original 3.5 PHB printing, it says "When using the attack action, you..."  When you charge - whether as a full round action, or as a standard action when you are restricted to a standard action - you are taking the Charge action.  You are not taking the Attack action, therefore you cannot benefit from Spring Attack.  The attack you make is part of the Charge action; it is not the Attack action.

-Hyp.


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## FoxWander (Jun 9, 2009)

I'm jumping in this kind of late, but I just found this post and I'm playing a character who specializes in charging so this is suddenly relevant in my game.  I've got a quick bit to say, a slight rant (which can be ignored so as to not further sidetrack the discussion- unless you like sidetracking, then by all means post away ), and a *serious question* at the end- so please pay attention to that part.

First off, I agree with most of you that (barring something special) you cannot combine a _charge_ with _spring attack_.  I'm posting because a "something special" has been mentioned (which lead me to this thread) but nobody has discussed how they think that may or may not change things.  More on that after this...

[begin slight rant]
Second, I've seen (and read thru) this question posted both here and the WOTC boards and they all seem to get hung up on one thing- the definition of "an action" in D&D.  The _spring attack_ feat starts it all off when it talks about using an "attack action", and then things get all muddled with what kind of action charging is, and then surprise-round charging, and then it goes like it did here with zombies and trying to get *better* at moving and attacking by being *slowed*confused and then Hypersmurf (who's usually spot on with these rules bits) goes and invents "charge actions". 

Here's my problem with all this- there is no "attack action" (or "charge actions").  There's only this:







			
				SRD said:
			
		

> There are six types of actions: standard actions, move actions, full-round actions, free actions, swift actions, and immediate actions.



So, attacking is *a type* of standard action, full-attack is *a type* of full-round action, as is charging (which involves both moving and attacking), and so on and so on. My point is- definitions are important when you start asking/answering tricky rules questions, so when the books themselves, and us, start throwing those terms about willy-nilly it gets confusing/annoying real quick.

If only the _spring attack_ feat had been "correctly" (imho) worded as- 'When using *a standard action to attack* with a melee weapon...' I believe these charging spring attack questions would never come up. They would obviously be incompatible action types.
[end rant] Feel free to ignore or discuss as you wish- but please chime in on this next bit


And now my real question- so _charge_ and _spring attack_ are (normally) incompatible because one requires a full-round action and the other is a standard action.  Easy enough.  But, what if you add 'something special'- the Boots of the Battle Charger (MIC p76) mentioned by StreamOfTheSky (and which my character is thinking to purchase).  The boots allow you to "make a charge attack as a standard action (rather than a full-round action), though the charge only includes movement up to your speed (rather than double your speed)."

Now you're using a standard action to (charge) attack with a melee weapon-  could you then use spring attack to move again after the attack? I'm thinking 'yes' but I'd like to hear what others think of how this works with the boots. And the sudden leap maneuver for that matter.

Thanks.


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## Arkhandus (Jun 9, 2009)

No, even with that kind of item, you cannot charge and Spring Attack.



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> When using the *attack action* with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can’t use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor.
> 
> You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack.



Emphasis mine.  Then check HERE in the SRD, looking at the table.  *Charge* is listed as an action.  It is not simply an option or subtype of the attack action, it is a distinct action of its own.  Spring Attack only functions with the *attack action* specifically.


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## Herzog (Jun 9, 2009)

As stated by FoxWander, there is no such thing as an 'attack action'.

When the rules refer to an attack action, they use that phrase to refer to making an attack. 

A character with multiple attacks per round can make multiple 'attack actions' as a full round actions.

Freeing yourself from a grapple, for instance, requires an 'attack action'. If you have multiple attacks per round, you can attempt to free yourselfs multiple times.

The reason you cannot combine spring attack and charge lies in the description of charge.

From the description of charge:


> You must move before your attack, not after.



In other words, charge specifically mentions you must not move after your attack.

If that is still ambiguous, consider this:
As you need to move into a straight line towards your opponent, and towards the square adjacent to your opponent and closest to you, you'd have to move _through _your opponent to continue your movement.


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## Foxworthy (Jun 9, 2009)

Herzog said:


> As stated by FoxWander, there is no such thing as an 'attack action'.




I believe that's wrong. On the list of standard actions they have a column entitled 'action' the first action on that list [actually three] is Attack. So reading the chart if you spend a standard action you may take an action called an attack. Which is commonly referred to as an attack action.

Here's the chart.



Herzog said:


> When the rules refer to an attack action, they use that phrase to refer to making an attack.
> 
> A character with multiple attacks per round can make multiple 'attack actions' as a full round actions.




The Full Attack Action makes no reference to 'Attack Actions'. It does say you can make multiple attacks, but doesn't say you get multiple 'attack actions'.



Herzog said:


> Freeing yourself from a grapple, for instance, requires an 'attack action'. If you have multiple attacks per round, you can attempt to free yourselfs multiple times.




Again, grapple does not mention attack actions at all. In fact it specifically mentions that if you get multiple attacks due to BAB that you can make multiple grapple checks.

Other special attacks like disarm or sunder both specify that they replace a melee attack and not an attack action as well. The attack action is used very rarely compared top the more general terms 'attack' or specific terms 'melee attack', 'ranged attack', etc.

That's why I believe that Spring Attack only allows you to use the standard action choice named attack. Not any ability that allows allows you to make an attack.

As such since Charge is a full round action that grants you a melee attack you wouldn't be able to combine it with spring attack because charge doesn't give you a free standard action named attack, just the more generic melee attack. Just like cleave grants you a melee attack.


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## thedmstrikes (Jun 9, 2009)

Wow....and I thought my players got into the rules alot....

I have a few things to contribute, so please be patient and of course, do not feel attacked or sleighted if I disagree with your interpretation.  So, here we go:

It seemed that this question was answered by the time I logged in today, however, there are two points near the end I would like to address.  First up is a disagrement based on a chart.  I have been an active peruser of rules questions for quite some time and have even chatted with rules designers in the past over some trivial things.  One of the things that all my sources are adamant in answering rules questions is that if there is a discrepancy between a chart and a text passage, the text passage trumps everytime.  The charts are supposed to be placed there as a visual confirmation of the text and are not supposed to contradict them in any way.  That said, 99.9% of these disagreements fall into one of two categories:  typos and human error.  Typos are self explanatory and usually corrected by updates and errata.  Human error involves several different points of view, but normally the incorrect party figures things out when they recheck their facts against the chart again.  Now that we have had to bear this entire disertation about charts and text, I believe the argument involving attacks based on the chart referenced is flawed becasue the title of the chart is standard actions.  This completely agrees with the text in the SRD at the beginning of the section.  An attack (any of three types) is a standard action and has been covered already in this post so I will not speak on it any further.

The second thing I would like to talk about is the Boots.  I do not have any of my references available, so my logic may be flawed without consulting the text verbage, but if it is as simple as stating that a charge can be equal to a standard action instead of a full round action, I can offer this:

I would rule that the magic of the boots allows you to "charge" as a standard action (as if you had only a standard action), then you could take any free actions (sans 5' move as it is prohibited if you charge in any case) or move actions afterward (or before just to be thorough).  Does this mean you can spring attack?  No, not as I have presented it (for two reasons).  First, the movement afterward would be a considered a different action and not subject to spring attack.  Second, the charge description clearly states that the attack comes at the end of movement, thus leaving no opportunity to move afterward as part of the same action and thus activating the spring attack benefits.  Here is the meat of this theory of mine:  yes, technically the character has moved after the attack during the same round, but spring attack has to be part of a single action, not a full round of actions.

The character would still benefit from the effects of mobility and dodge (if used against the recipient of the charge) when he/she moves away after the attack.  One last thing to consider (and you will not find this in the SRD) is there are a series of feats in one of the books I got from WOTC that augmented a charge (i.e. allowing a single 45 degree turn during the charge) but I do not remember the full range of them or their sourcebook name (I am away from home at the moment).  One of these feats may be useful in deciphering the actual effects of the boots with a little more certainty.


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## FoxWander (Jun 9, 2009)

I knew I shouldn't have brought up that stuff about actions. Now everything is so sidetracked that the "action problem" part of this discussion should probably be forked into another thread. But, as part of that discussion is relevant to the OP of charging with spring attack, I'll press on with it for just a bit.  

I was going to bring up the excellent point that thedmstrikes already mentioned, namely that, with the Boots, one can already do a charge attack and then move again after.  The charge attack is your standard action so you still have a move action left.  The only benefit you would get out of this scenario by having the Spring Attack feat, is not provoking AOOs from the person you charged and attacked.  I'm of the opinion that someone with Spring Attack would get that benefit in this situation.  I'll try to explain why without getting into the semantics of action types.  


 The spring attack feat allows you to run up, hit someone, then run away again, apparently fast enough that the guy you hit can't try to hit you when you run away- and that's normally all you could do that round.

 A charge allows you to run up and use your momentum to hit someone really hard and that's normally all you could do that round.  

If you have Boots of the Battle Charger, then twice a day you can do a shorter charge to hit someone really hard and still be able to run away again afterward- but you'd normally have to worry about giving your target a chance to hit you when you ran away.  

So, if Spring Attack allows you to run-hit-run without worrying about being hit in return, why would you *not* get the benefit of that feat just because you're using the boots to make that hit in the middle a harder hit than normal?


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## Arkhandus (Jun 10, 2009)

Leaving aside the fact that it just doesn't work within the rules.......

A charge is a high-impact, reckless rush where you use momentum to more easily hit your opponent before they can dodge or whatever.  It takes a moment to recover from that impact and regain a defensive posture, just like a linebacker slamming into another big guy in football, you can't just regain your steady posture immediately and keep on running, let alone _turn around and run the other way_ without some delay and momentary awkwardness in the turn.  That's why charge gives you an attack bonus and AC penalty, it doesn't let you maintain full defenses at the same time as the reckless charge.

Just try running into a wall and see if you can spin around right after impact and resume running in the other direction without a pause from the impact and turning around.  Seriously, if you think it's that easy to do a full 180 and keep running afterward, let alone quick enough not to expose yourself to a quick attack.  Just because the enemy got slammed into by your charge doesn't mean they're stunned and unable to swing a sword in your general direction as they stumble.

Spring Attack assumes you're moving at a fast walk or a light jog, at most, not a full run or a fast jog.  It's a lot easier to turn when you move at a low speed and thus have only light inertia carrying you in one direction.  It's simple physics.


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## FoxWander (Jun 10, 2009)

Yes, I completely agree with that.  Without magic boots that change the rules you cannot charge and use the spring attack feat.  They both, separately, use up your entire round of activity and so they can't be combined.

But I'm asking how it works with the boots.  For anyone who doesn't have the MIC here's the entire relevant quote from the book- "boots of the battle charger allow you to make a charge attack as a standard action (rather than a full-round action), though the charge only includes movement up to your speed (rather than double your speed). You must make the charge attack in the round you activate the boots, or the effect is lost."

Now you've got something that changes the rules. Specifically, the boots allow you to use a standard action to (charge) attack.  Since, as it's been pointed out, if "attack action" is short-hand for using a standard action to attack, it would seem (to me at least) that *with the boots* a charge attack IS compatible with the spring attack feat.  The boots allow that standard action/"attack action" to be a charge attack- then spring attack allows you to move again afterwards (which you can do anyway after a charge *with the boots*) without provoking AoOs from your target.  It even works with the movement restrictions imposed by both the boots and spring attack- you can't move more than your speed.  

And honestly, what's the problem with this? You need three feats and a magic item to pull off a moderately easier attack twice a day!  Even if you add pounce cheese on top- how is this a game breaker?


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## Foxworthy (Jun 10, 2009)

FoxWander said:


> And honestly, what's the problem with this? You need three feats and a magic item to pull off a moderately easier attack twice a day!  Even if you add pounce cheese on top- how is this a game breaker?




It's not just charge though, technically you'd be allowing all the Tome of Battle standard action melee attacks to be combined with Spring Attack as well.

It evens open up a huge can of worms with Shot on the Run since it would then allow things like Many Shot, or even a huge Sneak Attack/Greater Manyshot attack.

Now it probably won't break the game by itself, but I personally haven't tried it out so I'm not sure of all the possible ramifications.


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## FoxWander (Jun 10, 2009)

Wow, you brought up a good point about the ramifications with other feats- I hadn't considered that.  So it led me to a bit of research that showed the difference between standard actions and the more specific "attack action"- and now I'm forced to a conclusion I don't like, but at least I understand.  Spring attack and charge don't work together, even if it's only a standard action to charge.

I'll explain: I went to look into any other posts/rulings on manyshot and shot on the run- since they have almost the exact wording as the problem here. Manyshot is a standard action (just like charging with BotBC) and shot on the run calls for the attack action (in fact it reads exactly like spring attack).  Not surprisingly, the Main D&D 3.5 FAQ has dealt with this exact question and, luckily, they actually explain their answer rather than whipping off a yes or no.

Of course, the answer lies in the annoying (to me) standard action/attack action confusion (apparently it was just me who was confused).  What I couldn't get before is that while, obviously, "attack" is merely a certain type of standard action, the point (which I kept missing) is that it is a SPECIFIC standard action and not interchangeable with just any standard action.  Since shot on the run and spring attack are specifically limited to the _attack_ action, that means they can't be used with any standard action which happens to include an attack.

That being said, just because I understand why it doesn't work, and the reason for it, doesn't mean I like it.   In the case of someone with spring attack doing a boot-powered charge and moving after- the sequence is so similar to a "normal" spring attack that I'd allow them to get the feat benefits in my game even if it's not RAW.  Now I just need to talk my DM into the same point of view.


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## Arkhandus (Jun 11, 2009)

.....except that it doesn't make sense from the standpoint that charging is a reckless, fast attack that specifically leaves you more open to retaliation (-2 AC), so it doesn't make any rational sense that Spring Attack should let you easily avoid retaliation after the reckless attack.  You're leaving yourself open with the charge and shouldn't be able to _automatically _move away without any chance of retaliation.

And I frankly don't see why you want so badly to charge as a standard action then spring away scot-free, rather than just stepping in and out normally with Spring Attack and a normal attack, unless it's for a hugely broken full-attack charge combo with martial maneuvers or psionic powers or whatnot.


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## FoxWander (Jun 11, 2009)

Arkhandus said:


> .....except that it doesn't make sense from the standpoint that charging is a reckless, fast attack that specifically leaves you more open to retaliation (-2 AC), so it doesn't make any rational sense that Spring Attack should let you easily avoid retaliation after the reckless attack.  You're leaving yourself open with the charge and shouldn't be able to _automatically _move away without any chance of retaliation.





This is also an entirely valid point and one that makes me think maybe I'll just drop the whole thing.  If I get the boots I could run away after my charge normally and take my chances with AoOs.

But, I can think of one argument against just dropping the idea of a charging spring attack- and I'm not just bringing this up to be difficult, I think it might make just as much rational sense within the game...

Yes, charging is a "reckless" attack that leaves you more vulnerable; but the spring attack feat represents specific training on safely performing a hit and run; and it requires a magical effect (the boots), or psuedo-magical martial training (manuevers), to even be able to move again after a charge.  With all that together a rational argument could also be made that such a highly and specifically trained individual, with supernatural augmentation to their attack method, _should_ be able to combine everything to pull off a charging spring attack. 

And, I should point out, you would only be 'automatically' avoiding retaliation from your target.  Anyone else you pass by would still get AoOs that benefit from your charging AC penalty.  Now granted, you'll have mobility working for you against those- but it's _not_ a risk-free attack.


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