# How do you pronounce "dweomer"?



## Zander (Sep 18, 2006)

How do you pronounce "dweomer"?

If your pronunciation isn't listed exactly as you say it, please choose the option that comes closest.

NB I'm trying to find out how it is used in practice, not what its correct pronunciation is which has already been discussed on these boards.


----------



## Ry (Sep 18, 2006)

I've always heard DWEEmer.


----------



## wayne62682 (Sep 18, 2006)

I say it DWIM-mer as in "Begone, foul dwimmerlaik" (Eowyn to the Witch-King)


----------



## arscott (Sep 18, 2006)

I'll say it "DWEE-oh-mer" the first time, and then immediately realize it's wrong and say "DWIM-mer" from then on.


----------



## Huw (Sep 18, 2006)

Dwimer or dweemer.


----------



## mythusmage (Sep 18, 2006)

"Dwimmer" was the Old English. "Dweomer" the earlier Saxon. The "dw" really represents a sound no longer found in English. So if you pronounce it as "d eliding (kind of like sliding but not really) into w" you're not even close enough for horseshoes and handgrenades. The "e" modifies the previous sound, with the "o" being the next truly distinct vocalization.


----------



## diaglo (Sep 18, 2006)

majick


----------



## Henry (Sep 18, 2006)

I say, "DWEE-mer", and have since reading Greyhawk: Saga of Old City by Gary Gygax.

(paraphrasing)
_Dwarf: Zis dagger has a dveemer zat makes it...
Gord: Excuse me?
Dwarf: A dvee-mer zat makes it...
Gord: A what?
Dwarf: A DVEE-MER! Uhnd Enchantment!_


So I'm guessing gary says "DWEE-mer", and that's how I've used it.


----------



## Wyrm Pilot (Sep 18, 2006)

You don't have an option on the poll for "Other" -- I pronounce it "Throatwarbler Mangrove."   

No, I really pronounce it "dwee-oh-mer" under the exceedingly rare circumstance that I actually say it.

Cheers,
Wyrm Pilot
____________________


> *I believe that we should let all foreigners into our country, provided that they speak our native language: Apache.*
> -- _Stephen Glenn Martin_


----------



## Huw (Sep 18, 2006)

mythusmage said:
			
		

> "Dwimmer" was the Old English. "Dweomer" the earlier Saxon. The "dw" really represents a sound no longer found in English. So if you pronounce it as "d eliding (kind of like sliding but not really) into w" you're not even close enough for horseshoes and handgrenades. The "e" modifies the previous sound, with the "o" being the next truly distinct vocalization.




I had to read this three times to get it, and I know what he's talking about! (sorry, mythusmage)

Translation: There's an Old English diphthong using a vowel no longer in English. The sequence "weo" is an approximation of that diphthong.

Addenda: Another alternative spelling is "demer". An alternative meaning is "juggling". The etymology is unknown (possibly, but unlikely, related to "dim" - in the sense of hidden). Like it or not, modern readers will pronounce the "dw" as "dw" (even me, and I'm a language pedant - actually, I'll just say "magic").


----------



## Mercule (Sep 18, 2006)

"Dweemer".



			
				mythusmage said:
			
		

> "Dwimmer" was the Old English. "Dweomer" the earlier Saxon. The "dw" really represents a sound no longer found in English. So if you pronounce it as "d eliding (kind of like sliding but not really) into w" you're not even close enough for horseshoes and handgrenades. The "e" modifies the previous sound, with the "o" being the next truly distinct vocalization.




Erm....  So, how can I approximate the correct sound?


----------



## Voadam (Sep 18, 2006)

*Fun with Phonics*

An unknown word I had never heard spoken when I first read it. Sound it out using standard pronunciation rules. So: "Dwee Oh Mer." And that is how I've always said it.


----------



## punterke (Sep 18, 2006)

I often pronounce monsters in Dutch and don't think pronounciation is that important. It's quite possible that the villagers will pronounce it different in the next village. Standard languages (official dialects) are something from the Modern Age. I don't use it in my games.


----------



## Mycanid (Sep 18, 2006)

Hmm ... I always pronounced it "Dweh - mer".

I think it was from hearing somebody reading a book on tape pronouncing the word that way.  :\


----------



## HugeOgre (Sep 18, 2006)

I thought it was "dwoy-mer"


----------



## Ranger REG (Sep 18, 2006)

Zander said:
			
		

> How do you pronounce "dweomer"?
> 
> If your pronunciation isn't listed exactly as you say it, please choose the option that comes closest.



Like how I pronounce Worcestershire sauce, I murmur the word quickly, "dwmrr."


----------



## werk (Sep 18, 2006)

Dwimmer, like swimmer, but with a D.


----------



## Agamon (Sep 18, 2006)

I pronounce it the correct way.   

Kinda sad to look at those numbers up there, though.  I thought D&D players were stereotypically smart...


----------



## DragonLancer (Sep 18, 2006)

Its pronounced "Dwoh-mer."


----------



## BryonD (Sep 18, 2006)

A short fun read:
http://phrontistery.info/disq6.html


----------



## JohnSnow (Sep 18, 2006)

I'm in the minority "Dway-oh-mer" camp.

I first encountered the word when I was about 8, and puzzled its pronunciation out for myself.

If I was guessing now, I'd say "Dwoh-mer." 

That's stealing from 3 older english words I now know...

"Dwarf"
"Yeoman" (pronounced "Yoh-man", not "yim-man" or "yem-men"
"Glimmer" (end sound is "MER" not "Mair")

As an aside, my Old English reading brother informs me that "Yeoman" would have been spelt "geoman" in OE. And "Geoffrey" (as in Chaucer), would be pronounced "Yeffrey."

That strange "J" sound appears to have been appropriated from French, and applied irregularly to English words formerly started with a "J" "I" "G" or "Y" and all pronounced as we currently think of "Y."

Compare:

English "John" = "Jahn"
Welsh "Ioan" = "Yo-un"
Scottish "Ian" = "EE-un"
Irish "Sean" = "Shahn"
German "Johan" = "Yo-hahn"
Dutch "Jan" = "Yahn"


----------



## Conaill (Sep 18, 2006)

BryonD said:
			
		

> A short fun read:
> http://phrontistery.info/disq6.html



Nice find! Very interesting...

Oh, and I pronounce it like the Supertramp song:

_Dweomer, you know you are a dweomer
Well can you put your hands in your head, oh no!
I said dweomer..._


----------



## Megatron (Sep 18, 2006)

LOL
none of these options are right.


----------



## Huw (Sep 18, 2006)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Like how I pronounce Worcestershire sauce, I murmur the word quickly, "dwmrr."




Worcestershire is pronounced "Woostesher". English ain't the most phonetically rendered language, but it's even worse when it comes to place names.

But I like the concept of "Doomer". Makes the word sound more serious.

BTW, Leicester is "Lester", Reading is "Redding", Derby is "Darby", Beaulieux is "Byoolee", Loughborough is "Lufbrer" and Salisbury is "Solsbry".


----------



## Ry (Sep 18, 2006)

As a comprimise, allow me to suggest "boo-lay"


----------



## Xyanthon (Sep 18, 2006)

For whatever reason, I say it like Dew-oh-mer.  For some reason, I can't wrap my mind around any other way to say it.


----------



## pawsplay (Sep 19, 2006)

Dwem-er. I certainly don't start the second syllable with an M.


----------



## Hussar (Sep 19, 2006)

Pawsplay, actually, in English, you have to start all syllables with a consonant, so, it should be started with the "m".  

Then again, being Old English, I'm not sure how it would be pronounced.  I always used Dwee- mer.


----------



## Draloric (Sep 19, 2006)

mythusmage said:
			
		

> "Dwimmer" was the Old English. "Dweomer" the earlier Saxon. The "dw" really represents a sound no longer found in English. So if you pronounce it as "d eliding (kind of like sliding but not really) into w" you're not even close enough for horseshoes and handgrenades. The "e" modifies the previous sound, with the "o" being the next truly distinct vocalization.




Not to be pendantic, but the Old English (i.e., Anglo-Saxon) word was _dwimor_. Despite what the OED implies, _dweomer_ is not an attested Old English spelling of the word. (This that doesn't mean it was not a possible spelling of the word; rather that it doesn't survive in the written record, and we'll likely never know). The Toronto Dictionary of Old English defines _dwimor_ as "apparition, phantom" or "delusion, that which gives a false idea." Sometimes the word is specifically associated with the power of the devil or magic, sometimes it's much more pedestrian in usage. When it is associated with the devil or magic, it usually describes illusory (i.e., delusional) magic. It sometimes glosses Latin _fantasia_, "fantasy" and _fantasma_, "phantasm."

_Dweomer_, as we have it in our favourite game, is almost surely lifted from early Middle English _dweomer-cræft_ as attested in Layamon's _Brut_ and mentioned in the article <http://phrontistery.info/disq6.html>, which someone mentioned earlier. As far as pronounciation is concerned, OE _dwimor_ would probably be be pronounced "DWEE-mor," while the early Middle English version would probably be pronounced "DWEH-oh-mair."

Best,

Kris


----------



## Altamont Ravenard (Sep 19, 2006)

Dwoh-mer for me.

AR


----------



## A'koss (Sep 19, 2006)

I remember seeing this question before years ago and the correct way is _Dwee-mer_, the "o" being silent.


----------



## Man in the Funny Hat (Sep 19, 2006)

Dwee-oh-murr.  Only because that's the way it's SPELLED, and who the hell ever HEARD this word in use before they read it to actually know any better?    It doesn't even appear in any but the fattest, oldest dictionaries.  I may have actually thought it was even made up for a long time.  I know I never heard anybody use it in audible speech until maybe 2 years ago - which was probably about the time I'd actually read a statement from someone that suggested it might NOT be pronounced the way it's spelled.


----------



## Nifft (Sep 19, 2006)

I go between DWEE-mer and DWEE-oh-mur, depending on the specific NPC accent I'm faking at the time 

 -- N


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Sep 19, 2006)

I promounce it the way Mirriam-Webster's says it the correct way: dwee-oh-mer.


----------



## Zander (Sep 19, 2006)

*I should throw in my 2 cp's worth as I started this...*

Rightly or wrongly, I pronounce "Beowulf" _bay-oh-woolf"_, "Eomer" _ay-oh-mer_ and "Eowyn" _ay-oh-win_. For the sake of consistency, I pronounce "dweomer" _dway-oh-mer_. In all four cases, the _ay_ is quick and soft flowing into the _oh_ phoneme, so that _ay-oh_ is almost a diphthong. YMMV


----------



## DestroyYouAlot (Sep 19, 2006)

Zander said:
			
		

> Rightly or wrongly, I pronounce "Beowulf" _bay-oh-woolf"_, "Eomer" _ay-oh-mer_ and "Eowyn" _ay-oh-win_. For the sake of consistency, I pronounce "dweomer" _dway-oh-mer_. In all four cases, the _ay_ is quick and soft flowing into the _oh_ phoneme, so that _ay-oh_ is almost a diphthong. YMMV




What he said.

Now, about that gnoll...


----------



## mythusmage (Sep 19, 2006)

DestroyYouAlot said:
			
		

> What he said.
> 
> Now, about that gnoll...




That goes back aways. Seems one of the critters got hisself kilt, then animated by an evil priest. But before the animation happened the poor fellow was buried under a stream bed, and over the years, remarkably enough, his flesh became fossilized.

Anyway, while on a mission for his master the fossilzed zombie gnoll got zapped by a _Stone to Mud_. He managed to "survive" somehow, and in due time the mud dried and became dirt.

He later accompanied his master on another job, and on the way there they passed through a meadow in seed. Some of the grain landed on the zombie's dirt and managed to sprout. In due time the chap was covered in a most unusual lawn. And that is the origin of the grassy gnoll.


----------



## The Sigil (Sep 19, 2006)

I had to say it aloud to myself a few times to figure out how I say it... and danged if I have a weird way of doing so.

The "dw" at the beginning I pronounce softly - kind of like the "dw" leading "dwarf" but with a little bit of a "j" sound mixed in.  Kind of a "dzhw" sound (or if you know Hungarian, a "gy" in that language).

The eo gets turned into an "o" with an umlaut... kind of halfway between an "e" and an "o" that sounds to the uncivilized American ear  like an "uh."

The last syllable is "mer" as in "mermaid," of course.

The closest option to "dzhwömer" above was "dwemmer" even if that doesn't sound close to the way I actually say it.


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Sep 19, 2006)

dwee-oh-mur


----------



## Sejs (Sep 19, 2006)

Like "bow".


...wait, wrong discussion.

I pronounce it dwee-oh-mer.  When I have to say it.  Which is not often, as I avoid it when possible.  It is a clumsy, stumbling ass of a word.  Fits with normal parlance like gravel fits in a meringue.


----------



## Rhuvein (Sep 20, 2006)

Dwoh-mer.


----------



## Nyaricus (Sep 20, 2006)

BryonD said:
			
		

> A short fun read:
> http://phrontistery.info/disq6.html



Neat read, and a neat website - thanks for that! I was just saying how I pride myself on having a large vocabulary, and that site just beats the crap outta me 



			
				rycanada said:
			
		

> As a comprimise, allow me to suggest "boo-lay"



I take your comprimise and raise you a "bul-ett"


----------



## MarkB (Sep 20, 2006)

"Dwee-oh-mer". If only because any other way would have other people around the table saying "Huh?"

And having read this thread, and seen what scanty building blocks the word is derived from, I'll continue to pronounce it that way, as there's clearly insufficient solid ground on which to build a "correct" pronunciation.


----------



## jmucchiello (Sep 20, 2006)

BryonD said:
			
		

> A short fun read:
> http://phrontistery.info/disq6.html



Um, has anyone ever asked Gary on the various threads about the origin of dweomer (and libram)?


----------



## Agemegos (Sep 21, 2006)

When it is spelled in the Mercian fashion  ('dweomer') I diphthongise a short 'e' as in 'bet' to a rounded front 'o', to produce something like "DWAIR-mer" (take into account that my accent is non-rhotic, so both 'r's are silent). Same sound as at teh beginning of 'Eomer' and 'Eowyn'.

But I have to confess that I more often spell it 'dwimmer' and pronounce it accordingly.


----------

