# Most broken prestige classes?



## Christian

Thought about adding a poll, but don't even have thoughts on what to include. So ... What do you think are the most poorly balanced prestige classes that have come out for D&D 3.5? WOTC, third-party, whatever. Which ones are most likely to ruin a game if they're allowed?

No, I'm not trying to figure out my next character.


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## Asmo

I think that you will find that Radiant servant of Pelor is getting lots of votes.

Asmo


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## Storyteller01

Depends on the setting. ANy place special, or are you using the basic layout.


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## Legildur

Frenzied Beserker would have to rate highly.

But I reckon the Earth Dreamer from Races of Stone grabs my attention. A 5 level PrC with full spellcasting progression, 2 good saves (poor BAB though), and some neat special abilities, including the abilities (12th level) of 10ft tremorsense, at will see through stone, dirt or earth up to 30ft asif it weren't there, and at will earth glide (as the earth elemental ability).  I'm not sure I could even take such a PrC to my DM.


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## Kurashu

War Hulk, Hulking Hurler, Frenzied Berserker, Ur Preist, and Blighter are PrC that won't be making an appearance in my games save for a few situations, and then only as NPCs.

There's others, but I can't think of them off hand.


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## FunkBGR

I tend to avoid anything out of Complete Divine -

Ur-Priest
Radiant Servant
Un-errata'd Rainbow Servant (*regardless of what you believe, the fact that somebody can read the text and point to WotC "text trumps table" errata)
Pious Templar
Divine Crusader

I'm sure there's more


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## hong

What's wrong with the rainbow servant?


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## Thanee

The most broken PrC _ever_ has to be the Dweomerkeeper. That one puts brokenness to new levels. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Solarious

The Incantatrix is a nasty contender, for the metamagiks field. Most optimizers take it for the sheer power it offers to primary arcane spellcasters, at little overall cost. Even in this day and age of supplements, you'll be hard pressed to find a PrC that beats it for pure magey twitch power.

Telflammar Shadowlord is also abusable, although still nasty regardless of wether you abuse the pounce or not. Powerful either way, but takes some effort to actually break.

But yeah, Dweomerkeeper takes the cake for brokeness, as long as you let Supernatural Spell eliminate XP costs. If you nerf that, then it regresses to something along the lines of Incantatrix-level power.


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## Sound of Azure

The homebrew ones in my sig, probably.    

I found the Incantatrix, Frenzied berserker, and Radiant Servant of Pelor the worst. I haven't seen a dweomerkeeper in play, but it didn't look good either.

Really though, I look at the PrCls to see if the do what they set out to do, and don't overshadow other options, the base classes they came from, or the other PCs.


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## EyeontheMountain

Here is a great source for pretige classes and sources

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prestige_classes


Truely Broken or very easily abuseable
   Incantrix
   Dweomerkeeper
   Ur-Priest
   Planar Shepherd

Needs to be watched very carefully
  Sublime Chord
  Blighter
  Shadowlord
  Argent Champion(just a bit too good)
  Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
  Hulking Hurler

Should not be allowed because it will wreck your campaign
      Frenzied Berzerker

Only abusable if you are too free with a trick or two
  Divine crusader (if you allow multiple domains)
  Ultimate Magus(Practiced spellcaster)
  Wild Mage(Practiced Spellcaster Trick)


IMHO, of course. A lot of the above are only really abusable in combination. For example taking mystic theurge with either Divine Crusader, Ur-priest or else is a good way to break those classes wide open.


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## Thanee

What's so great about Mystic Theurge with Ur-Priest?

Bye
Thanee


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## Sejs

Thanee said:
			
		

> What's so great about Mystic Theurge with Ur-Priest?
> 
> Bye
> Thanee




Ur-Priest has its own 9-levels-of-spells-over-10-levels-of-class spellcasting progression.

1) get into Ur-Priest.
2) get into Mystic Theurge
3) apply Mystic Theurge's divine spellcasting progression to Ur-Priest.
4) cast 9th level arcane and divine spells by around 17th level.


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## green slime

Thanee said:
			
		

> What's so great about Mystic Theurge with Ur-Priest?
> 
> Bye
> Thanee




I too, was wondering over this.


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## Thanee

Ah, I see. The prerequisites are kinda low, which allows you to get into Mystic Theurge with just Wizard 5/Ur-Priest 1.

Yeah, that makes the combination even better than 'just' the Ur-Priest itself.

Bye
Thanee


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## Raspen

Exemplar ......... for them campains where skills are more important then fighting this class is broken.  i didnt realy know it till i played a human with the feat fay touched from BoED but this class made the game very unfun


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## Felix

EyeontheMountain said:
			
		

> Needs to be watched very carefully
> ...
> Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
> ...





			
				FunkBGR said:
			
		

> Pious Templar



May I ask why you name these PrCs?


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## Thanee

Sandshaper is probably pretty broken. Dozens of spells known for no real cost, if you are a sorcerer.

Also the Mage of the Arcane Order is pretty nifty and certainly gives more than it takes (which seems to be what many here take as broken already ).

Bye
Thanee


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## hong

I'm still wondering why the rainbow servant is broken....


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## Kurashu

It's an arcane casting PrC from Complete Divine 10th level ability gives access to all cleric spells.

Pious Templar I'd allow. I'm also pretty fond of the picture that goes with it.


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## hong

Looking at the rainbow servant, I see that you need to be at least 5th level to get in, and it grants +6 caster levels over 10 class levels. So at 15th character level, you'd be casting wiz and cleric spells as an 11th caster, effectively 2 spell levels behind. If you then took mystic theurge all the way to 20th level, you'd be 16th caster level for wiz and cleric at the end.

I still don't see how it's broken.


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## Quartz

EyeontheMountain said:
			
		

> Only abusable if you are too free with a trick or two
> Divine crusader (if you allow multiple domains)




I disagree: the Divine Crusader's not a good class as is - the precept is all wrong anyway. Turn it to someone who crusades for a deity, not the cause, and gradually allow them to get domains belonging to the deity. I'd suggest L4 and L7. Give them one domain with which to start, but also a bonus domain of Glory if good and Domination if evil; neutrals get neither. This also helps keep the chararacter in the class.



> IMHO, of course. A lot of the above are only really abusable in combination. For example taking mystic theurge with either Divine Crusader, Ur-priest or else is a good way to break those classes wide open.



The Divine Crusader isn't so much of a problem due to the entry requirement of BAB +7. Even at best you're looking at something like Wiz 3 / Ftr 4 / DC 2 before you start on MT levels  Add on MT 10 and while you're looking at 9th level divine spells, your arcane spells are only 7th level. And even then you only get one of each. This is the same as following the clasic Wiz 3 / Cl 3 / MT 10 / Heirophant 4 route.

Where the Divine Crusader becomes problematic is if you allow it as a one-level dip, simply to get the spell progression then jumping to other prestige classes which add domains.


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## Kurashu

hong said:
			
		

> Looking at the rainbow servant, I see that you need to be at least 5th level to get in, and it grants +6 caster levels over 10 class levels. So at 15th character level, you'd be casting wiz and cleric spells as an 11th caster, effectively 2 spell levels behind. If you then took mystic theurge all the way to 20th level, you'd be 16th caster level for wiz and cleric at the end.
> 
> I still don't see how it's broken.




Except you don't need MT. You, as an arcane caster, are handed the entire cleric spell list and told "Have fun!" So at 15th level you are casting as an 11th spellcaster, meaning you never 9th level spells unless you go to 21st level. But who cares? You have two huge spell lists. Plus, three domains, the ability to grow wings for 10 minutes/day, and some SLAs.


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## hong

Kurashu said:
			
		

> Except you don't need MT. You, as an arcane caster, are handed the entire cleric spell list and told "Have fun!" So at 15th level you are casting as an 11th spellcaster, meaning you never 9th level spells unless you go to 21st level. But who cares? You have two huge spell lists. Plus, three domains, the ability to grow wings for 10 minutes/day, and some SLAs.



 Okay, so you get handed the entire cleric spell list at 15th level. Why is this so incredibly powerful? The MT has had the spell list since 6th level, and has a higher caster level into the bargain, but people don't seem to consider it broken. Basically, I thought it had been established that multiple-casting-progression PrCs weren't necessarily all that hot, when their drawbacks were taken into account.

The ability to grow wings is pretty cool, but by itself doesn't seem that broken.


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## Quez The Lame

hong said:
			
		

> Okay, so you get handed the entire cleric spell list at 15th level. Why is this so incredibly powerful?



Warmages can qualify for Rainbow Servant.


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## hong

Quez The Lame said:
			
		

> Warmages can qualify for Rainbow Servant.



 ... I don't get it.


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## Quez The Lame

Warmages are spontaneous casters who treat their spell list as spells known, i.e. they would have spontaneous access to all cleric spells.


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## gnfnrf

hong said:
			
		

> Looking at the rainbow servant, I see that you need to be at least 5th level to get in, and it grants +6 caster levels over 10 class levels. So at 15th character level, you'd be casting wiz and cleric spells as an 11th caster, effectively 2 spell levels behind. If you then took mystic theurge all the way to 20th level, you'd be 16th caster level for wiz and cleric at the end.
> 
> I still don't see how it's broken.




Note that the +1 caster level in the text says at each level, not at certain levels.  According to errata policies, when the text and the table disagree, follow the text.  That makes the rainbow servant pretty broken.

On the other hand, the way the rainbow servant implies the extra spells on their spell list works contradicts the way the front of the book says extra spells work for sorcerers, and which one you do there makes a big difference.

--
gnfnrf


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## hong

Quez The Lame said:
			
		

> Warmages are spontaneous casters who treat their spell list as spells known, i.e. they would have spontaneous access to all cleric spells.



 Okay, that is indeed pretty powerful. I wouldn't say that it really makes the entire PrC broken, though, just because there's an unintended interaction with one splatbook class. Besides, you only get this benefit at 16th level, by which time you've taken a big hit to your caster level and hit points. Maybe if you were making 16th level characters from scratch it might be worth considering, but slogging through those 10 levels sounds a lot like work.


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## hong

gnfnrf said:
			
		

> Note that the +1 caster level in the text says at each level, not at certain levels.  According to errata policies, when the text and the table disagree, follow the text.  That makes the rainbow servant pretty broken.




D'oh!



> On the other hand, the way the rainbow servant implies the extra spells on their spell list works contradicts the way the front of the book says extra spells work for sorcerers, and which one you do there makes a big difference.




Which bit is this?


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## Land Outcast

Mystic Theurge + Ur Priest

OMFGWTFBBQ!!!1


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## Christian

Yeah, that Ur-priest does look messed up. Fortunately, it looks like it's impossible to qualify. Feat requirement is Spell Focus (evil); but the Spell Focus feat indicates that you 'choose a school of magic'. Evil is a descriptor, not a school, so it's not an option for Spell Focus. Whew!


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## Thanee

There is a feat Spell Focus (evil), actually. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Kurashu

Christian. Head a little further in Complete Divine to the feats.  Spell Focus is extended to Lawful, Chaotic, Evil, and Good descriptors.


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## Quartz

gnfnrf said:
			
		

> Note that the +1 caster level in the text says at each level, not at certain levels.  According to errata policies, when the text and the table disagree, follow the text.  That makes the rainbow servant pretty broken.




I don't have the book in front of me, but does it mean that you may only get +7 levels of spells but +10 levels of caster level? Like the Practiced Spellcaster feat?


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## Mistwell

I think my definition of broken is different than some other people's.

Powerful /= broken.  Overpowered relative to other prestige classes /= broken.  More powerful than a core class /= broken.  

Broken to me means breaks your game.  It means people don't have fun using that thing.  Almost none of these seem inherently broken.  Some seem broken in particular tricky use or combination.  But most mentioned just seem slightly more powerful than the core class they are based on.  That isn't broken in my opinion.  As Thanee said, I don't think a prestige class that gives more than it takes is by definition broken.

For example, Shadowcraft Mage is not broken in normal use.  However, when combined with so many feats, including some from Dragon Magazine, that a failed save on one of their shadow spells does MORE than 100% damage, then it breaks because the game will be unfun at that point.  But the prestige class itself doesn't break on it's own that way, just with a combo.


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## Kurashu

If text and table disagree, go with the text. The text says full progession.

Rainbow Servant gets +10 levels of arcane spellcasting class.


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## Mistwell

Kurashu said:
			
		

> If text and table disagree, go with the text. The text says full progession.
> 
> Rainbow Servant gets +10 levels of arcane spellcasting class.




Except errata should override all.


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## Pyrex

Thanee said:
			
		

> Also the Mage of the Arcane Order is pretty nifty and certainly gives more than it takes (which seems to be what many here take as broken already ).




We had someone use the MotAO in our tabletop game not too long ago and considering the costs required (both to enter the PrC and the cost in actions required to use the Spellpool) it really didn't come across as all that broken in play.


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## Mistwell

Pyrex said:
			
		

> We had someone use the MotAO in our tabletop game not too long ago and considering the costs required (both to enter the PrC and the cost in actions required to use the Spellpool) it really didn't come across as all that broken in play.




I think Thanee means when a sorcerer with that spell preparation feat takes the prestige class to spontaneously cast a lot more spells all of a sudden.  Thanee likes sorcerers, and thinks that make sorcerers hum with power


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## The Thayan Menace

*Logos!*



			
				EyeontheMountain said:
			
		

> Wild Mage(Practiced Spellcaster Trick)



That would have to be my personal FAVORITE.    

-Samir


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## GeorgeFields

Wasn't this thread done last month?


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## drexes

New one I've come across that I think could be in the "overpowered to broken" continuum is the Fochlucan Lyrist. Takes a lot to get into that class, but full attack bonus, full bard spells and full druid spells and bardic music/knowledge. Plus I think (I don't have it in front of me) they get d10 hit dice. Whew! They have a lot of flavor, but man, they get a lot of goodies.

Drexes


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## The Thayan Menace

*True Dat!*



			
				GeoFFields said:
			
		

> Wasn't this thread done last month?



Yup, just like the paladin thread.

-Samir


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## gnfnrf

hong said:
			
		

> Which bit is this?




In the Rainbow Servant prestige class, it explains that sorcerers are likely to take the class to increase their spells known by adding the domain spells.

On page 20, it explains that when sorcerers gain domain access, they must spend spells known slots normally to learn the spells; they can't just automatically add them to the list.

This really nerfs the 10th level ability.

Also, page 20 does not account for warmage/beguiler style casters at all, so it is an open question how these abilities function for them.

--
gnfnrf


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## kayn99

It is funny for I have a very different view of things.  Some of these classes are not bad in a normal game.  Our group is very much into the role-playing aspect of the game and PrC do not exist on their own.  Players should have to show a commitment to something to join a PrC.  Just letting players dip into this and that should not be allowed by a good DM.  The system really was not set up to protect against that type of abuse.  The game becomes less game and more of a math equation... What + what + what = the ultimate class.  When you allow players to start abusing the system like that, you then need to start powering up monsters, standard magic items look like toys, and some other players get left in the dust.  A rule that many games I have seen that are tired of this creative math, is that once you enter a PrC you must finish it before adopting another PrC.  Well just my thoughts


Kayn


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## gnfnrf

Quartz said:
			
		

> I don't have the book in front of me, but does it mean that you may only get +7 levels of spells but +10 levels of caster level? Like the Practiced Spellcaster feat?




No, it's full caster progression.  It's the section headed "Spells Per Day/Spells Known" exactly like in any other prestige class.

--
gnfnrf


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## GeorgeFields

The Thayan Menace said:
			
		

> Yup, just like the paladin thread.
> 
> -Samir




I must've missed the paladin thread.


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## The Thayan Menace

*Celestial Omnibus!*



			
				GeoFFields said:
			
		

> I must've missed the paladin thread.



No problem, just wait an hour ... and you can catch the next one.    

-Samir


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## DreadArchon

drexes said:
			
		

> New one I've come across that I think could be in the "overpowered to broken" continuum is the Fochlucan Lyrist. Takes a lot to get into that class, but full attack bonus, full bard spells and full druid spells and bardic music/knowledge. Plus I think (I don't have it in front of me) they get d10 hit dice. Whew! They have a lot of flavor, but man, they get a lot of goodies.




You forgot "Never take multiclass penalties again and Druids may wear metal armor" at level 1.

I have a player going for that right now, except that he's only taking one level each of Druid and Bard and he's applying the bonuses to Cleric and Warlock progression (Warlocks can Shatter and Dimension Door at will... !).  I'm allowing it.  It's good, but not broken.


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## Huw

gnfnrf said:
			
		

> In the Rainbow Servant prestige class, it explains that sorcerers are likely to take the class to increase their spells known by adding the domain spells.
> 
> On page 20, it explains that when sorcerers gain domain access, they must spend spells known slots normally to learn the spells; they can't just automatically add them to the list.
> 
> This really nerfs the 10th level ability.
> 
> Also, page 20 does not account for warmage/beguiler style casters at all, so it is an open question how these abilities function for them.
> 
> --
> gnfnrf




I'd rule that the warmage/beguiler/dread necromancer can now learn the spells via their advanced learning class ability. So a warmage could learn flame strike, for instance.


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## pawsplay

Radiant Servant of Pelor is a good example of a class that people yell "OMG broken" over that just isn't. You have to sink several ranks in Heal to qualify, and your domains get chosen for you. You also have a feat chosen for you. You do get martial weapon proficiency, some nice SLAs, and a few enhanced heals each day, but you do get a reduced hit die (d6). If I were writing it, I might make it cost a level of spellcasting, but I think that would unduly penalize multiclass characters entering the class. It's strong, I wouldn't necessarily allow it, but I don't see how you could weaken it without it becoming just a core cleric. It certainly will not, under any circumstances, break a campaign. Even clerics looking for a power boost would have to focus on specific strategy to find Radiant Servant broken. You could make the class freely available and you still wouldn't have a ton of them, maybe not even most clerics.

For broken:
Hulking Hurler (overburdened heave lends itself to incredible abuse with great ease; anyone can get dozens of dice of damage, liberal use of options can yield several million - yes, million - d6s)
War Hulk (cute idea, but in addition to having a nonsensical loss of skill ranks, +2 Str per level, every level, is both unbalanced and conceptually strange)
Chosen of Mystara (miracle 2/day with no XP cost at 17th level)
Ur-Priest (9th level spells with full caster level in your late teens; also, conceptually identical to an Evil cleric without a deity)
Frenzied Berseker (great power, with the drawback you will eventually destroy your allies and the campaign, unless you abuse the BoED to remove all the drawbacks)
True Necromancer (its combined caster level is usually curbed by a careful reading of the rules, but there are corner cases that can lead to caster levels in the high 30s before epic level)
Illithid Slayer (makes you immune to a great many psionics in a psionically oriented campaign)

Not broken:
Radiant Servant of Pelor (strong, but not overly strong)
Fochulan Lyricist (gives you everything but a d12 hit die, but the price of getting there is so high it's barely a consolation)
Mystic Theurge and its relatives (in general, high level spell access trumps low level list access)
Archmage (yes, it gives you nice benefits, but instead of getting extra feats, as a wizard, you spend them qualifying for this class)


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## Piratecat

I have no problem with the war hulk, myself. I'd definitely allow it.


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## pawsplay

Piratecat said:
			
		

> I have no problem with the war hulk, myself. I'd definitely allow it.




Without the Hulking Hurler, it's not truly mind-boggling, merely abusive, I'll admit.


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## Mistwell

pawsplay said:
			
		

> Radiant Servant of Pelor is a good example of a class that people yell "OMG broken" over that just isn't. You have to sink several ranks in Heal to qualify, and your domains get chosen for you. You also have a feat chosen for you. You do get martial weapon proficiency, some nice SLAs, and a few enhanced heals each day, but you do get a reduced hit die (d6). If I were writing it, I might make it cost a level of spellcasting, but I think that would unduly penalize multiclass characters entering the class. It's strong, I wouldn't necessarily allow it, but I don't see how you could weaken it without it becoming just a core cleric. It certainly will not, under any circumstances, break a campaign. Even clerics looking for a power boost would have to focus on specific strategy to find Radiant Servant broken. You could make the class freely available and you still wouldn't have a ton of them, maybe not even most clerics.




I entirely agree with you.  In fact, given that a close look at the class shows that you have to choose healing as one of your domains to get full utility out of that prestige class, which is one of the least useful domains in the book for a cleric, I'd say the Radiant Servant is just your plain old typical prestige class that is not overpowered at all.


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## NilesB

If you use the table Rainbow Servant is fair, even with Warmages and Beguilers.

Hulking Hurler is broken in practice, but the problem is in the improvised weapon table, not the class.

Radiant Servant of Pelor gives up little to gain little. It becomes problematic if you don't know what a domain spell is.


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## pawsplay

For Warmage Radiant Servants, I would just rule that the ability gives them cleric spells on their class list, but that the clause about knowing them all does not apply and they must use expanded knowledge or Extra Spell to gain them as spells known. It's not demanded by the RAW, but I think it's a fair interpretation.


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## NilesB

Or you can realize that by the time a Warmage gets access to the cleric spell list Wizards have had that access with limited wish for three levels, and that if you are going to ask a pure caster to fall two spell levels behind to get something it had better be _very_ good.


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## Talkkno

Planar Shepard(Faiths of Eberron) 
Like a druid, only better.(Wild shaping into outsiders, gaining supernatural and spell likes, full caster, animal compain progression....Planar bubble time trait abuse.)


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## Darklone

DreadArchon said:
			
		

> You forgot "Never take multiclass penalties again and Druids may wear metal armor" at level 1.
> 
> I have a player going for that right now, except that he's only taking one level each of Druid and Bard and he's applying the bonuses to Cleric and Warlock progression (Warlocks can Shatter and Dimension Door at will... !).  I'm allowing it.  It's good, but not broken.



Fochlucan Lyrist has d6 HD. Ok, the class has a strong BAB, 6+int skill points, full spellcasting for two classes, bardic music abilities increase and two strong saves.

Still, you need evasion and level 10 to get into the class. That means the multiclassing doesn't help you at all (since you only take the FL class from hereon) and the metal armor restriction does apply for your first ten levels. Even with the Green whisperer added, you still miss most of your druid special extra abilities and end up with a char that's not stronger than any singleclass druid.

Even the abusive build on the wizards char optimisation board is pretty... lame. Compared to the other classes listed here.


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## Maldor

Thrallherder is a very powerful class but the thing that makes me say it should not be allowed is how much it slows down game play and makes other players less importaned


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## Hussar

> Pious Templar




Color me confused on this one too.  Other than it is a supreme save monkey, why is this PrC broken?


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## EyeontheMountain

Hussar said:
			
		

> Color me confused on this one too.  Other than it is a supreme save monkey, why is this PrC[Pious Templer] broken?




I personally have no idea. It seem intersting, and a decent fighter/paladin crossbreed, but broken, I think no way!!1


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## Thanee

Hussar said:
			
		

> Color me confused on this one too.  Other than it is a supreme save monkey, why is this PrC broken?




It's like a Commoner, just better!!

Bye
Thanee


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## Caliban

Hussar said:
			
		

> Color me confused on this one too.  Other than it is a supreme save monkey, why is this PrC broken?




Probably because a lot of builds only use one level of the class.   2 levels of monk or rogue (or Divine Oracle), and 1 level of Pious templar and you now avoid all negative effects of any spell when you make the save.   It's not that strong for divine casters because it costs you a feat and a caster level, but it's very powerful for mutt melee builds.

I have a lvl 18 mutt/Dwarven Defender that uses it.  (Ftr4/Mnk2/Exotic Weapon Master 1/Pious Templar1/Dwarven Defender 10).


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## billd91

The discussion about the Rainbow Servant has gotten me thinking. I am starting to come around to the idea that a significant portion of the cleric's (and druid's) balance is a fairly limited set of spells available to them. Since they can prep anything off their class lists, any additions to that list have to be weighed particularly carefully.
I'm discovering this in a game I'm running because the addition of Complete Spell Compendium has significantly ratched up the power of the cleric in the party. I'm tempted to say that the cleric's or druid's spell list is fixed at a certain number of spells - the number in the PH. Any additions from other sources must be met with reductions from that list.
If you use a game with the Rainbow Servant, you might want to consider doing that as well.


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## Particle_Man

pawsplay said:
			
		

> Radiant Servant of Pelor is a good example of a class that people yell "OMG broken" over that just isn't.




I disagree.  Here's why:



> You have to sink several ranks in Heal to qualify, and your domains get chosen for you. You also have a feat chosen for you.




5 ranks in Heal doesn't break the bank, and is actually a good investment for a low level cleric who might run out of spells.  5 ranks of knowledge religion helps turn undead, so we are talking about 4 more ranks of knowledge religion. 

Your domains get chosen for you.  Sun domain is rather nice, though.  The healing domain isn't the best, but you get a bonus domain with the class, which means you now have 3 domain powers.

Extra turning is a good feat for a cleric to have.  In a "lots of undead" campaign, just keep turning.  In a "not so much undead" campaign, you can use a feat to turn those turn undeads into something else (and some of those are quite good, and themselves have extra turning as a prereq. anyhow).



> You do get martial weapon proficiency, some nice SLAs, and a few enhanced heals each day, but you do get a reduced hit die (d6).




The lower hit die is effectively a "negative feat" (vs. improved toughness) but doesn't retroactively reduce previsous cleric hd, so you lose a maximum of 10 hp on average).  The martial weapon proficiencies open up the "cleric archer" option, as well as give you much greater access to magic weapons that are randomly determined.  To learn proficiency is one martial weapon is one feat.  You get them all.

A fairly common cleric trope is the "heal and turn undead" guy.  It is not the only trope but it is far from rare (in fact, I would be tempted to say it is the default cleric that most people playing D&D think of first when they hear the word "cleric" - note I did not say all people).  If you play a cleric of this trope, why would you *not* take this prestige class?  In fact, a cleric of this trope will likely take the feats and most of the skill ranks needed for prerequisites anyhow, so it is effectivley cost free except for the lost of 10 hp.

I won't say "broken" in the sense of "breaks the game" but I will say "broken" in the sense of "almost every cleric of the default cleric trope should take this prestige class because the positives so greatly outweigh the negatives".


----------



## Fieari

RSoP is Cleric+.  It's almost exactly like the base cleric, just with a lower HD size, but with added benefits that increase the usefulness of what the cleric is already good at.  If you were going to pick the Sun domain anyway, which is by no means out of the question, what do you have to lose?  A couple skill points allocated differently than you might have otherwise done?  Big deal.  You're a Cleric+!


----------



## billd91

pawsplay said:
			
		

> For Warmage Radiant Servants, I would just rule that the ability gives them cleric spells on their class list, but that the clause about knowing them all does not apply and they must use expanded knowledge or Extra Spell to gain them as spells known. It's not demanded by the RAW, but I think it's a fair interpretation.




I'd consider allow a warmage rainbow servant to pick one spell from each level to add to the standard warmage list. 
Quite frankly, it is unfair to judge the rainbow servant based on an alternative casting method that wasn't anticipated. The onus should be on the warmage to define how these things are handled and not the rainbow servant.


----------



## pawsplay

Particle_Man said:
			
		

> I disagree.  Here's why:
> 
> 
> 
> 5 ranks in Heal doesn't break the bank, and is actually a good investment for a low level cleric who might run out of spells.  5 ranks of knowledge religion helps turn undead, so we are talking about 4 more ranks of knowledge religion.




5 ranks of Heal is pretty ridiculous. I've never seen a cleric run out of heal spells... cure minor wounds is like a Heal check to stabilize, only better, and 0 level spells are like candy. If you don't have a decent Int, you could end up spending half your skill points on this skill. Obviously, humans and gray elves don't have it so bad.



> Your domains get chosen for you.  Sun domain is rather nice, though.  The healing domain isn't the best, but you get a bonus domain with the class, which means you now have 3 domain powers.




Healing Domain is pretty weak. The bonus domain is nice, true.



> Extra turning is a good feat for a cleric to have.  In a "lots of undead" campaign, just keep turning.  In a "not so much undead" campaign, you can use a feat to turn those turn undeads into something else (and some of those are quite good, and themselves have extra turning as a prereq. anyhow).




It's an expensive feat to have. First of all, you're not fighting undead all the time. Second, even if you are, your base number of turning attempts is probably enough. Third, turning those uses into something else uses even more feats.



> The lower hit die is effectively a "negative feat" (vs. improved toughness) but doesn't retroactively reduce previsous cleric hd, so you lose a maximum of 10 hp on average).  The martial weapon proficiencies open up the "cleric archer" option, as well as give you much greater access to magic weapons that are randomly determined.  To learn proficiency is one martial weapon is one feat.  You get them all.




So do fighters. And blackguards get armor proficiency. Frankly, 5th level is late in the game to be getting started on "cleric archer."



> A fairly common cleric trope is the "heal and turn undead" guy.  It is not the only trope but it is far from rare (in fact, I would be tempted to say it is the default cleric that most people playing D&D think of first when they hear the word "cleric" - note I did not say all people).  If you play a cleric of this trope, why would you *not* take this prestige class?  In fact, a cleric of this trope will likely take the feats and most of the skill ranks needed for prerequisites anyhow, so it is effectivley cost free except for the lost of 10 hp.




Greater turning, from the Sun domain, is 1/day, so although nice, it's no great thing on its own. Healing is a rare domain to take, although it's handy enough. Almost always, when I see a cleric, I see domains chosen to open up the spell list and other options beyond "heal and turn undead." If you plan on healing and turning undead, it's true, the Radiant Servant is a pretty good deal, but the fact that it is not for anyone else pretty much means it's not broken. For instance, Radiant Servant as a bump on the way to War Priest would not be all that great.



> I won't say "broken" in the sense of "breaks the game" but I will say "broken" in the sense of "almost every cleric of the default cleric trope should take this prestige class because the positives so greatly outweigh the negatives".




I disagree. I suggest avoiding divine feats unless you have a specific domain in mind, I recommend Protection and either Strength, Magic, or Knowledge as domains, I suggest you take no more than 1 rank in Heal, and I can name a number of other Prestige Classes offering good domains and powers.


----------



## wildstarsreach

Asmo said:
			
		

> I think that you will find that Radiant servant of Pelor is getting lots of votes.
> 
> Asmo




 That is because he out clerics the Cleric.


----------



## Doctor DM

Yeah, most have allready been mentioned, but no one's said anything about the Sacred Fist from Complete Divine.

It's not THAT bad, but take a look at it. The big problem to me is the Fighter base atk bonus. By taking one level of cleric and then SF, you get spell progresion (almost) every level, you keep advancing with monk unarmed damage, speed and AC, AND your BAB improves. (not to mention a few other VERY nice abilities).

I have no clue why you wouldn't just keep the monk/cleric base atk bonus...


----------



## DreadArchon

Darklone said:
			
		

> That means the multiclassing doesn't help you at all (since you only take the FL class from hereon)



Unless you chose to multiclass poorly to get into FL.  I don't think I would, but it is a possibility.



> and the metal armor restriction does apply for your first ten levels.



Not if you take Druid as your tenth level.  Also, the Bard levels make it advantageous to wear light armor anyway, which limits the relevance of the metal restrictions.



> and end up with a char that's not stronger than any singleclass druid.



Erm, what _is_ stronger than a singleclass druid?



> Even the abusive build on the wizards char optimisation board is pretty... lame. Compared to the other classes listed here.



That's why I was arguing against the FL being broken.

The only thing that does bother me about the FL is that the single dip level into Druid gets you Predator Form if you go for Shapeshift.  Considering that the Predator Form will give the Dwarf +30 to land speed whenever he wants it (and the ability to use Druid scrolls when not a predator), that's a pretty good dip level.  Still, he loses his gear and some Warlock powers while shifted, so... meh.


----------



## Mistwell

Fieari said:
			
		

> RSoP is Cleric+.  It's almost exactly like the base cleric, just with a lower HD size, but with added benefits that increase the usefulness of what the cleric is already good at.  If you were going to pick the Sun domain anyway, which is by no means out of the question, what do you have to lose?  A couple skill points allocated differently than you might have otherwise done?  Big deal.  You're a Cleric+!




You are ignoring the lack of choices this prestige class forces on you - and that IS a significant thing to give up.

Your domains are fixed to Sun and Healing, if you want to use all the abilities of the prestige class.  And the healing domain is awful.  Even WOTC admits the healing domain is really really lame for the cleric.  Almost nobody would choose that domain unless forced to do so.  Heck, the second level power of this prestige class should probably itself be the granted power of the healing domain just to give people an incentive to take it in the first place.  That is a drawback.

Extra turning is not a great feat on it's own.  If a cleric were to take it, it is almost always because they need it to power some other feat they are planned on choosing.  That is also a drawback.

5 ranks in healing and 9 in knowledge religion is also a drawback.  Intelligence is a dump stat for most Clerics, and they only get 2 skill points per level.  That means devoting most of your skill points to those two relatively weak skills for about a quarter of your adventuring career.

Taking this prestige class does in fact have significant drawbacks, because it takes away options from you and makes you take options that are well known for being sub-optimal.  I really wish people would stop calling this prestige class "Cleric+".  It just isn't that.  Normal clerics have more choices than this particular kind of cleric, and this game is often about choices and having your options open to go in different directions.


----------



## Darklone

pawsplay said:
			
		

> 5 ranks of Heal is pretty ridiculous. I've never seen a cleric run out of heal spells... cure minor wounds is like a Heal check to stabilize, only better, and 0 level spells are like candy. If you don't have a decent Int, you could end up spending half your skill points on this skill. Obviously, humans and gray elves don't have it so bad.



You've never seen a cleric run out of heal spells? Cure spells even. My last big group had two nearly singleclass clerics, a psion, two druids and two multiclass chars who could use wands of cure light wounds (ranger and paladin levels). And yet about every third gaming session, the whole group was out of cure spells. YMMV, my battles are bloody.


			
				DreadArchon said:
			
		

> Unless you chose to multiclass poorly to get into FL.  I don't think I would, but it is a possibility.



I can hardly imagine any reason why you shouldn't take the class as soon as you can get into it... 


> Not if you take Druid as your tenth level.  Also, the Bard levels make it advantageous to wear light armor anyway, which limits the relevance of the metal restrictions.



Right, sorry. I was assuming most FL builds take more than one level of druid since the druids spellcasting is lots stronger.


> Erm, what _is_ stronger than a singleclass druid?



 Two singleclass druids ?


> The only thing that does bother me about the FL is that the single dip level into Druid gets you Predator Form if you go for Shapeshift.  Considering that the Predator Form will give the Dwarf +30 to land speed whenever he wants it (and the ability to use Druid scrolls when not a predator), that's a pretty good dip level.  Still, he loses his gear and some Warlock powers while shifted, so... meh.



Predator form was what and where from? Dwarven FLs... argh. These give me the shivers.


----------



## Someone

If the Radiant Servant is better at healing and turning than a regular cleric, does it make the class broken? He's specializing quite heavily to enter the class in terms of skills and domains. It's like calling the Invisible blade broken because it's better at dagger fighting than a rogue, or the dwarven defender because is more resilient than a fighter.


----------



## Fieari

Alright.  Let's at least start from this premise.  Assuming that A) You were going to pick the Sun Domain anyway, and B) The game starts at ECL 11, why would you want to go straight cleric 11 instead of Cleric 6/RSoP 5?

Note that RSoP 5 gives you an extra domain, meaning that you're no longer stuck with the suboptimal healing domain.  You gain better turning abilities, better light spells, weapon proficiency, magical disease immunity, better healing, and even better will saves, and better will saves for the entire party too.  Furthermore, you gain everything a cleric would for each level, except a single point of HP per level (on average).

I'll grant that up until ECL 11, the healing domain is suboptimal, but can you accept that after ECL 11, it's been more than made up for?  Far more than made up for?


----------



## Slaved

Looking at the Radiant servant you do not have to pick up the healing domain at all. It does not look like it even says that you only gain the empower and maximize benefits from a healing spell cast from the domain slot.

Even if it did require that though the character could have the Sun domain and any other he likes and pick up the healing domain directly from the class itself.

The cleric is already incredibly strong. This prestige class does indeed look like cleric+.


----------



## Votan

NilesB said:
			
		

> Or you can realize that by the time a Warmage gets access to the cleric spell list Wizards have had that access with limited wish for three levels, and that if you are going to ask a pure caster to fall two spell levels behind to get something it had better be _very_ good.




Agreed.  If you use the table then you should go with the liberal interpretation of cleric spell addition.  On the other hand, a more restrictive version makes sense if you accept the full caster progression.


----------



## Legildur

We have two straight clerics (and one multi-classed cleric) in our World's Largest Dungeon campaign (and boy, do we need it!).  Both of these are aiming for RSoP.  One is already there.  The healing capabilities are fantastic.  One has also focused on turning undead... and he can smash (low-level) undead by the dozen. Definately a cleric+. But broken? I don't think so, but we are still relatively low level (7-8th).


----------



## Mistwell

Slaved said:
			
		

> Looking at the Radiant servant you do not have to pick up the healing domain at all. It does not look like it even says that you only gain the empower and maximize benefits from a healing spell cast from the domain slot.
> 
> Even if it did require that though the character could have the Sun domain and any other he likes and pick up the healing domain directly from the class itself.
> 
> The cleric is already incredibly strong. This prestige class does indeed look like cleric+.




This is why I and others have said you need to actually read the class carefully and look up the phrases and words it uses.  You can only use the healing abilities on spells you actually are getting from the healing domain.  You cannot even use it on that same spell in a non-domain slot.  It's healing spells in your healing domain slot that you actually cast as a domain spell.  It's very restricted, and you must have that domain to use it.  And if you hold off until you get that domain from the class, you miss out on using the abilities of the class for a good chunk of the class itself.

You have to choose Sun and Healing as your domains if you want to enjoy the abilities of this class.  Period.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Alright.  Let's at least start from this premise.  Assuming that A) You were going to pick the Sun Domain anyway, and B) The game starts at ECL 11, why would you want to go straight cleric 11 instead of Cleric 6/RSoP 5?
> 
> Note that RSoP 5 gives you an extra domain, meaning that you're no longer stuck with the suboptimal healing domain.  You gain better turning abilities, better light spells, weapon proficiency, magical disease immunity, better healing, and even better will saves, and better will saves for the entire party too.  Furthermore, you gain everything a cleric would for each level, except a single point of HP per level (on average).
> 
> I'll grant that up until ECL 11, the healing domain is suboptimal, but can you accept that after ECL 11, it's been more than made up for?  Far more than made up for?




Arguing that "if you start at high level then it is well worth it" isn't compelling to me, since ALL prestige classes look a lot better if you can jump over all the difficult levels of sacrificing other options to get there.  I mean that is what those entry requirements are all about - you go through several levels opting for things that are not necessarily what you want, and not necessarily as powerful, so that later on you get a pay off.  If you ignore that effect, then of course it looks suddenly better.


----------



## Wilphe

Mistwell said:
			
		

> Thanee likes sorcerers, and thinks that make sorcerers hum with power



I thought that was Spellfire Adepts?


----------



## Slaved

Mistwell said:
			
		

> This is why I and others have said you need to actually read the class carefully and look up the phrases and words it uses.




I did. It does not mention having to cast the domain spell out of a domain slot at all from what I can tell. Does anyone see it say domain slot?




			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> And if you hold off until you get that domain from the class, you miss out on using the abilities of the class for a good chunk of the class itself.




You miss out on a single ability that, if you are correct in it only work on domain slots, is almost a non-issue. The rest of the class still grants a lot of very good abilities above and beyond a normal cleric.

If a cleric in this prestige class never gets the healing domain as any of his three domains he is still better off than a normal cleric. It isn't like extra turning is not useful to power divine feats.


----------



## Caliban

pawsplay said:
			
		

> 5 ranks of Heal is pretty ridiculous. I've never seen a cleric run out of heal spells... cure minor wounds is like a Heal check to stabilize, only better, and 0 level spells are like candy. If you don't have a decent Int, you could end up spending half your skill points on this skill. Obviously, humans and gray elves don't have it so bad.




In my experience, 5 ranks of Heal, while not exactly common, isn't uncommon.   Especially with feats like Augment Healing (requires 4 ranks), and spells like Healing Lorecall (Requires 5 to 10 ranks of healing to be useful).

And I've seen clerics run out of healing.


----------



## Legildur

Caliban said:
			
		

> In my experience, 5 ranks of Heal, while not exactly common, isn't uncommon.....
> 
> And I've seen clerics run out of healing.



Agreed.  And let's not forget about a heal check to assist with the secondary save against poison.... or provide long-term care, treat disease or caltrop wounds.... it is more than just dealing with stabilising a dying creature.


----------



## NilesB

Slaved said:
			
		

> I did. It does not mention having to cast the domain spell out of a domain slot at all from what I can tell. Does anyone see it say domain slot?



It doesn't have too. The Players Handbook explicitly defines domain spells as cast from a domain spell slot.


----------



## Slaved

NilesB said:
			
		

> It doesn't have too. The Players Handbook explicitly defines domain spells as cast from a domain spell slot.




Where?

I see this..


			
				system resource document said:
			
		

> Each domain gives the cleric access to a domain spell at each spell level he can cast, from 1st on up, as well as a granted power. The cleric gets the granted powers of both the domains selected.
> With access to two domain spells at a given spell level, a cleric prepares one or the other each day in his domain spell slot. If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, a cleric can prepare it only in his domain spell slot.




This talks about what you can put into a domain slot and that a spell on the domain list is a domain spell.

The prestige class ability though talks about casting a domain spell. Cure light wounds is a domain spell in the healing domain. If you cast it from a normal slot it did not come from a domain slot but it still appears on the healing domain spell list.


----------



## NilesB

Slaved said:
			
		

> Where?



The glossary, where definitions of unusual or specificly defined terminology goes.


----------



## pawsplay

Doctor DM said:
			
		

> Yeah, most have allready been mentioned, but no one's said anything about the Sacred Fist from Complete Divine.
> 
> It's not THAT bad, but take a look at it. The big problem to me is the Fighter base atk bonus. By taking one level of cleric and then SF, you get spell progresion (almost) every level, you keep advancing with monk unarmed damage, speed and AC, AND your BAB improves. (not to mention a few other VERY nice abilities).
> 
> I have no clue why you wouldn't just keep the monk/cleric base atk bonus...




I think one reason is that if you take two mediums, and then take a third, you end up with bad rounding. Another is that you don't get get improved flurry of blows.


----------



## pawsplay

Slaved said:
			
		

> This talks about what you can put into a domain slot and that a spell on the domain list is a domain spell.




No, that pretty much says the opposite of that. It says domain spells are the spells you get from domains, and if they're not cleric spells, they're still not cleric spells for you.


----------



## Slaved

NilesB said:
			
		

> The glossary, where definitions of unusual or specificly defined terminology goes.




Ok, wizards glossary it is.


			
				wizards glossary said:
			
		

> A divine spell belonging to a domain. Each domain offers one spell of each spell level. In addition to their normal daily complement of spells, clerics can cast one domain spell per day for each spell level that their caster levels allow. This spell may be from either of their domains. Domain spells cannot be exchanged for cure or inflict spells.




A divine spell belonging to a domain.

Cure light wounds is a spell belonging to the healing domain.

The radiants ability requiers casting a domain spell from the healing domain.

Still nothing about it needing to be cast from the domain slot to get the benefit though.


----------



## pawsplay

Legildur said:
			
		

> Agreed.  And let's not forget about a heal check to assist with the secondary save against poison.... or provide long-term care, treat disease or caltrop wounds.... it is more than just dealing with stabilising a dying creature.




... most of which can be done by a Wis 18 cleric taking 10 with a single rank in Heal. The exceptions are poisons and diseases, for which you have effective spells, either to remove the vector or to simply remove conditions and ability damage after the fact.  Those DCs vary.


----------



## pawsplay

Slaved said:
			
		

> Cure light wounds is a spell belonging to the healing domain.




It is a spell offered by the healing domain. You can also choose the domain spell offered by your other domain.


----------



## Slaved

pawsplay said:
			
		

> No, that pretty much says the opposite of that. It says domain spells are the spells you get from domains, and if they're not cleric spells, they're still not cleric spells for you.




Domain spells are spells that are on the domain list. If you do not have it on your normal cleric list then you still cannot put it into your normal slots, without further help at least.

Which is what I said so it cannot be the opposite of it. Although since they are divine spells cast by a cleric I would have to say that you are incorrect about them not being cleric spells. They are just spells not on the general cleric list. But that is semantics.


----------



## NilesB

> Domain spells cannot be exchanged for cure or inflict spells.





So by your reading every time wizards publishes a new domain clerical Spontaneous Casting loses more utility?


----------



## Slaved

By my reading the radiant does not say that the spell comes from the domain slot, it merely needs to be a spell on the domain list.


----------



## Legildur

pawsplay said:
			
		

> ... most of which can be done by a Wis 18 cleric taking 10 with a single rank in Heal. The exceptions are poisons and diseases, for which you have effective spells, either to remove the vector or to simply remove conditions and ability damage after the fact.  Those DCs vary.



I think you are reinforcing my point   Particularly as Remove Disease (Clr3) and Neutralise Poison (Clr4) may not be immediately available.

However, you have a good point about the DC15 checks for the more mundane uses.


----------



## wildstarsreach

Someone said:
			
		

> If the Radiant Servant is better at healing and turning than a regular cleric, does it make the class broken? He's specializing quite heavily to enter the class in terms of skills and domains. It's like calling the Invisible blade broken because it's better at dagger fighting than a rogue, or the dwarven defender because is more resilient than a fighter.




Radiant Servents give up nothing.  They gain everything that a cleric has and more.  The become the ultimate undead killer.  That doesn't mean that you be beaten but you get great bang for the buck.


----------



## NilesB

Slaved said:
			
		

> By my reading the radiant does not say that the spell comes from the domain slot, it merely needs to be a spell on the domain list.



By that reading if a first level cleric of Pelor were to prepare Cause fear, it would continue to be a Death domain spell even cast out of a cleric spell slot rather than a domain spell slot. If this  first level cleric of Pelor were to decide that a cure light wounds would be more useful than cause fear, he would then run afoul of the PHB prescription against exchanging domain spells that you quoted 6 posts up.


----------



## Slaved

Which of course shows, yet again, that the glossary sucks. It is often wrong or misleading.

However, you have not shown anything to support your case other than the last line of the glossary might pose problems somewhere else in the rules, which is not actually support for your case at all.

I would have no problem with it being true that only the domain slots prepared with healing domain spells work with the classes ability, but you have not shown that it is the case. There are several places which point to the opposite so far in fact.


----------



## NilesB

There is no reason why the burden of proof falls on me rather than you, and while I have not demonstrated that my reading is the only valid reading of the rules I have shown it to be the strongest and most consistent reading of the rules.


----------



## EyeontheMountain

Wow, what a feud about the Radiant's powers......

Moving up about 20 posts or so, I am a bit leery of Sacred Fist, especially as you can qualify for it with a level of Monk and then four levels of Ranger, to keep your BAB as high as possible. Sure, you do not get the Improved Flurry, but with a good BAB progression, it doesn't really matter. If I were to go into it, Monk1/Ranger3/Monk1/Sacred Fist10 looks pretty good to me. 

At 16th level

BAB+15 (Flurry away. the -2 doesn't mean much)
Ranger Casting of 9 (Yeah, Cleric is much stronger)
Nice speed and AC bonuses. 
It jsut grants a bit too much, in my opinion.

Butthen again, my opinion is probably colored bythe fact I hate monks, and a certian mod here once played a Sacred Fist in one of my campaigns.


----------



## Felix

Yeah, EyeontheMountain, my query on the Pious Templar and the Initiate of the 7-fold Veil went unanswered in this landslide of Radiant Servant business. 

Ah well, may as well wade on in...

-------

We can all agree that the Radiant Servant of Pelor does two things well:
Heals
Turns Undead​
It does not seem insignifigant to me that the class is called "Radiant Servant *of Pelor*", as Pelor is a god of healing and of the Sun, which is anathema to undead. The two greatest restrictions of this class are: patron Deity and alignment. If your character concept is that of a wicked cool fighting cleric of WeeJas who is also good at healing, too bad. It means that the best healers in the world are Pelorians, and that makes sense. It means that the best fighters against undead are Pelorians, and that makes sense.

The question of "why wouldn't any cleric take this class?" is an erronious question. Any cleric wouldn't take this class because _only clerics of Pelor qualify_.

The real question is "why wouldn't a cleric of Pelor take this class?" And the answer is, "Every cleric of Pelor probably would take this class". Is that such a bad thing to have the Healing and Sun god running around with healing and undead-turning clerics?

Only if the choice of alignment, deity and domans means nothing to you can you delcare that this is not a signifigant restriction on the character. And if you believe that the choice of alignment, patron deities and domains means nothing, then there's nothing further to discuss.

*Second point:*

Turning undead is an ability completely in control of the DM. It can be powered up by encountering more undead, mitigated by applying Turn Resistance, and almost completely obsoleted by not throwing undead at the PCs. If the Radiant Servant is becoming a little powerful, let the intelligent undead actually get smart and stay out of this guy's way. 

*Point the Third*

Healing is a defensive ability (though it can be offensive against undead: see second point). Offensive abilities are valued higher than defensive ones as far as balance goes: after all, you have to attack the Radiant Servant for him to get mileage out of his increased healing capability. Like the Initiate of the 7-fold Veil, increasing the power of a defensive ability will not necessarily increase the character's offensive power as much as it will increase his party-members' survivability: increases in defensive abilities work to increase the other party members' offensive capabilities. It is immenently not imbalancing, nor broken, to broadly increase your party's survivability.

*Point the 3.5:*

Also, the text says, "casts a domain spell from the healing domain". The footnote for the cleric table on page 31 of the PHB states:

In addition to the stated number of spells per day for 1st through 9th level spells, _a cleric gets a domain spell for each spell level_, starting at 1st. The "+1" in the entries on this table represents that spell. Domain spells are in addition to any bonus spells the cleric may recieve for having a high Wisdom score.​
[Emphasis added]

This footnote does clearly seperate domain spells from the other spells the cleric may cast from their spell list and those gained from a high Wisdom.

For those of you who argue both that the Radiant Servant is too powerful and that the Empower Healing ability can be used with every Healing spell cast, here is precident that allows you to rule otherwise. Refusing to use this ruling that would allow you to power-down the abilities of a class you claim to be over-powered may suggest that perhaps you dislike the class for other reasons than its power-level, and simply use power-level as an excuse to ban the class.


----------



## Mistwell

Slaved said:
			
		

> Which of course shows, yet again, that the glossary sucks. It is often wrong or misleading.
> 
> However, you have not shown anything to support your case other than the last line of the glossary might pose problems somewhere else in the rules, which is not actually support for your case at all.
> 
> I would have no problem with it being true that only the domain slots prepared with healing domain spells work with the classes ability, but you have not shown that it is the case. There are several places which point to the opposite so far in fact.




By your logic, if I have protection from good on my domain spell list, then if I prepare it in a non-domain spell slot, I cannot swap that spell out for a cure spell.  Why?  Because it's considered a domain spell even it isn't prepared in a domain slot, and domain spells cannot be swapped out for cure spells.  

However, you and I both know that isn't how the game functions.  You don't keep track of both domain slot spells and any spell that might be on a domain spell list but which is prepared in a regular slot, for purposes of what can be swapped.

All the wording on page 32 of the PHB backs up the argument that a domain spell is a spell cast from a domain spell slot.  The wording in the glossary does as well.  And the wording of the page 31 PHB footnote does as well.  And logic does as well for purposes of the debate over this prestige class.

If you think your interpretation and the competing one are both reasonable, and one results in the prestige class being significantly more powerful than the other, and you already think the prestige class is very powerful, then logic dictates you choose the reasonable interpretation that grants less power for the already "overpowered" prestige class.


----------



## EyeontheMountain

Felix said:
			
		

> Yeah, EyeontheMountain, my query on the Pious Templar and the Initiate of the 7-fold Veil went unanswered in this landslide of Radiant Servant business.
> 
> For those of you who argue both that the Radiant Servant is too powerful and that the Empower Healing ability can be used with every Healing spell cast, here is precident that allows you to rule otherwise. Refusing to use this ruling that would allow you to power-down the abilities of a class you claim to be over-powered may suggest that perhaps you dislike the class for other reasons than its power-level, and simply use power-level as an excuse to ban the class.




Let me say I agree totally about Radiant Servant. It is about the best cleric prestige class out there, and its main power vs undead is good, and may even make turning undead viable. It sucks to be a 12th level cleric who cannot turn a 15 HD zombie. Pretty humiliating, especially for those of us from 2E where type of undead rules, not HD. Hard to beleive that a high HD zombie is harder to turn than a Lich. Jsut something wrong there.

But to go to my listing of initiate.

Initiate has a lot of wasted feats to get into it. I mean SF abjuration? If Spell Focus added to Caster Level it would rule, but how many abjurations have save DCs? Other than banishment and such?

The thing that bothers me about the class is the reactive warding, especially when they get to all seven veils. That is virtual (or total) immunity to any attack in the game. Add onthe seven levels of spellcasting, and it is a pretty good class, and should be watched, though it is nowhere near the level of Incantrix brokeness. Man, that class jsut gets more and more broken as the new books come out. 

As for Pious Templert, I did not list it and am not sure why it was listed. Yes, Mettle+Evasion is a nice combo, but it is not much better than Evasion alone. How many will and Fortitude partial spells are out there and need to be feared? I can't think of many. Plus if you want mettle there are other wayts to get it, though granted not at 1st level. But that is a cherry-picking problem, not a problem of the class as a whole. 

I did not list classes that should be watched for cherry picking, but that would make a good lsit also.


----------



## EyeontheMountain

Mistwell said:
			
		

> If you think your interpretation and the competing one are both reasonable, and one results in the prestige class being significantly more powerful than the other, and you already think the prestige class is very powerful, then logic dictates you choose the reasonable interpretation that grants less power for the already "overpowered" prestige class.




Well said. Well said


----------



## hong

EyeontheMountain said:
			
		

> Let me say I agree totally about Radiant Servant. It is about the best cleric prestige class out there, and its main power vs undead is good, and may even make turning undead viable. It sucks to be a 12th level cleric who cannot turn a 15 HD zombie. Pretty humiliating, especially for those of us from 2E where type of undead rules, not HD.




"Humiliating"? Just beat the friggin' thing to death!


----------



## Someone

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> Radiant Servents give up nothing.  They gain everything that a cleric has and more.  The become the ultimate undead killer.  That doesn't mean that you be beaten but you get great bang for the buck.




And Tempests give up nothing compared to a fighter. They gain everything a Fighter gets, and more. They become the ultimate two weapon fighters. If you have Improved two weapon fighting and spring attack, there's no reason not to take the Tempest class.

I repeat, what's the point of that argument? One of the uses of prestige classes is to offer more power on narrow or specialized areas. Radiant Servants are good against undead, and have a boots on Healing spells. Other abilities -like martial weapon proficiency- are less appropiate, but I think that hardly makes the class absurdly overpowered, or worthy of be listed in this thread.


----------



## Legildur

Someone said:
			
		

> And Tempests give up nothing compared to a fighter. They gain everything a Fighter gets, and more. They become the ultimate two weapon fighters. If you have Improved two weapon fighting and spring attack, there's no reason not to take the Tempest class.



Except for access to some Fighter only feats, and possibly the new feats in the PHBII. But if I were building a 2WF character, then I'd certainly be eyeing off that PrC!


----------



## Seeten

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> Radiant Servents give up nothing.  They gain everything that a cleric has and more.  The become the ultimate undead killer.  That doesn't mean that you be beaten but you get great bang for the buck.




Dont they give up medium bab and d8 hit dice for poor bab and d6 hit dice?

Doesnt this mean they give up their martial prowess to become a better spellcaster?

And dont tell me base clerics dont make excellent warriors.


----------



## satori01

Having your Domain Spell be a Healing spell in order to use the principle power of the class is a huge cost of opportunity.

Augment Healing, Extra Turning, Divine Metamagic and Sudden Metamagic spells can mimic this class feature.  Sure a RSoP can take these feats as well...but you then have a character maximized for healing...a character that is trying to min/max the # of hp healed....which is fine.  Technically under the "strict interpretation"  of RSoP...a OA Shaman dedicated to Pelor would almost be better...as the OA Shaman gets 2 Domain Spells per day at some levels.

Now if you are going to ignore all _Rigo_r and _Logic_ and decide the power of the RSoP applies to all spells on the Healing Domain list...the best healer is still not a cleric with the class...but instead a Favoured Soul with the Temporary HP alternative class ability from PHB II and a 3 levels of the Knight of the Raven PrC class from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft.

The Knight of the Raven PrC is btw a class that gives you:
1) Full BAB
2) D8 HP
3) Near Full Spell Casting ( you lose out on 1 spell casting level @  1st level)
4) Raven Companion...that has the Celestial template...HP = to half your total...and is able to distract opponents as a free action causing them to lose actions, AoO etc and is rather hard to kill.
5) Feats that enable you to ignore or remove Negative Levels + ability damage...class grants feats from Liber Mortis
6) Class Gives you the Sun Domain for Free @ 3rd Level
7) Class Gives you a power to hurt Undead similar to the 10th level ability of the RsoP.

The only downside is you lose 2, of Turning Caster Levels...as similar to a Paladin it does not give you Turn Undead to 3rd level.  
Of course the Turning Rules being what they are this is not that big of a deal.

Me thinks a Melee Cleric, with Divine Might, Righteous Might, Divine Power, with Power Attack and 10 levels of a FULL BAB class is scarier than a cleric casting a Maximize/Empowered Cure Light Wounds spell from his Domain Slot for 17 HPs of healing once per day.


----------



## Votan

EyeontheMountain said:
			
		

> But to go to my listing of initiate.
> 
> Initiate has a lot of wasted feats to get into it. I mean SF abjuration? If Spell Focus added to Caster Level it would rule, but how many abjurations have save DCs? Other than banishment and such?
> 
> The thing that bothers me about the class is the reactive warding, especially when they get to all seven veils. That is virtual (or total) immunity to any attack in the game. Add onthe seven levels of spellcasting, and it is a pretty good class, and should be watched, though it is nowhere near the level of Incantrix brokeness. Man, that class jsut gets more and more broken as the new books come out.




One problem with the Initiate is that it has a lot of up front costs (when casters are weak) to have amazing pwoers later on (when casters are strong).  

However, between reactive warding and Kaleidoscopic Doom, the Initiate has too many options to dominate certain kinds of encounters.  For example, imagine a high level wizard or cleric without spells up?  One Kaleidoscopic doom is pretty fatal to anything with non-trivial buffs (and once a day isn't okay if the character has this many other cool abilities with the class).  Add Unanswerable strike to make sure that the Dispel works (Yikes!) and double reactive warding if anything tries to go into melee.  At this point the character is rather robust to attacks.  

Now add the class level bonus to resist dispelling a list of protective spells and you have a class that can be pushed into brutal focus.  It's not broken out of the box but it is like Divine Metamagic -- if you push on the strengths hard enough it gets insanely good.


----------



## Slaved

NilesB said:
			
		

> There is no reason why the burden of proof falls on me rather than you




Except that I have already given proof while you have not?   

Oh, and mistwell, I disagree with your assessment given your lack of proof.


Not that it really matters though, the radiant is still better at being a cleric than the cleric even if you remove the extra healing ability entirely.


----------



## Slaved

Someone said:
			
		

> And Tempests give up nothing compared to a fighter.




While I would not agree entirely it is not like moving up from a fighter is a big power move.


----------



## pawsplay

_And the answer is, "Every cleric of Pelor probably would take this class"._

Um, no. Only ones who want to highly specialize in two things. As already pointed out, Healing is not a commonly taken domain. The costs to get in, while not odious, are not insignificant. I would agree with, "Every Cleric of Pelor, who has the Sun domain, who plans to specialize in healing, but who would rather have divine feats than Augmented Healing at lower levels, and has a decent Int score or is human... probably would take this class."


----------



## NilesB

Slaved said:
			
		

> Except that I have already given proof while you have not?



You have given  logically faulty assertions unbacked by evidence. That _you_ have said it does not make a statement a proof.


----------



## Someone

Slaved said:
			
		

> While I would not agree entirely it is not like moving up from a fighter is a big power move.




So what? I was addressing the faulty logic that is a PrC is better at doing something than the base class, then it's either broken or "better X than X". Of course Tempest are better two weapon fighters than single classed fighters: is what the frigging class is made to do, it'd be a stupid class if not. That doesn't mean that Tempests are better fighters than fighters: they are better two weapon fighters, but if they pick a spiked chain or a longbow chances are that the staright fighter is better. Tmepest would be absolutely better if Fighters couldn't learn anything but two weapn fighting feats or lacked the option to do anything but two weapon fighting.

To say it clearer, that logic is the same than asserting that paladins are better at Detecting and Smiting Evil than clerics, therefore Paladins are better clerics than clerics. Radiant servants would be better clerics than clerics if clerics could do nothing but turn undead and heal, two things strongly belonging to the cleric shtick but absolutely not the only thing they can do. If you want proof of that look for any thread discussing the "best 4 members party", there's always someone who posts a party of 4 pure clerics. And no, they are not all radiant servants, though it's true that ther's always one.


----------



## DreadArchon

Someone said:
			
		

> Radiant servants would be better clerics than clerics if clerics could do nothing but turn undead and heal, two things strongly belonging to the cleric shtick but absolutely not the only thing they can do.



Yeah, Radiant Servant of Pelor really offends my own concept of the Cleric (I usually build them as tankmage blasters, which RSoP is bad for).


----------



## Slaved

NilesB said:
			
		

> ...




If you have something which actually goes against the wording that has been provided from the books so far I'd be happy to see it.



			
				Someone said:
			
		

> So what?




My comment was along the lines of if a prestige class out clerics the cleric there is a problem because the cleric is already pretty much at the top of the food chain. If a prestige class out fighters the fighter then it is not really even noticeable because pretty much everyone can do that. In fact, it is likely a good thing.


----------



## Seeten

It doesnt out cleric the cleric. It out heals and out turns the cleric. It doesnt outfight the cleric. It doesnt outblast the cleric. It doesnt outlive the cleric.

Clerics have better hit die. Clerics have better BAB. Clerics thus fight much better, and tank much better than RSoP. Clerics Blast just as well. Clerics of Luck make saves better. Clerics of Destruction smite better. 

I think people wildly overstate how good the RSoP is. Wildly.


----------



## Slaved

Outhealing is part of outliving certainly. They both have medium BAB progression. How can the cleric possibly out tank the radiant when they both have the same armor proficiencies but the radiant has better weapon proficiencies?


----------



## Alpha Polaris

Seeten said:
			
		

> It doesnt out cleric the cleric. It out heals and out turns the cleric. It doesnt outfight the cleric. It doesnt outblast the cleric. It doesnt outlive the cleric.
> 
> Clerics have better hit die. Clerics have better BAB. Clerics thus fight much better, and tank much better than RSoP. Clerics Blast just as well. Clerics of Luck make saves better. Clerics of Destruction smite better.
> 
> I think people wildly overstate how good the RSoP is. Wildly.




Well, for one thing, Cleric do not have a better bab, unless you count a one point differential for not starting exactly at level eight. Since melee clerics tend to rely heavily on Divine Power for BAB, this is kind of moot, since weapon focus is the only difference there. As for tanking and outliving, the mean hp differential for 10 levels of RSoP amounts to a whopping 10 hp, not exactly overwhelming, especially when you consider the boost in staying power coming from enhanced healing spells.

I'm not saying you're flat-out wrong, I even tend to agree with you. But making sweeping statements will not help balance the issues one way or another. The RSoP does two things well, blasting undead, and healing (which is a nice way of blasting undead, too), at a little cost in combat proficiency and out of combat flexibility. Seems just right to me.


----------



## Seeten

Perhaps I am at work and dont have my books here, but isnt RSoP 1/2 bab? If it isnt, it sure is in my campaign.


----------



## Alpha Polaris

Seeten said:
			
		

> Perhaps I am at work and dont have my books here, but isnt RSoP 1/2 bab? If it isnt, it sure is in my campaign.



Okay, so if we take into account your weak BAB house rule (the RSoP has median BAB, just like the cleric), the cleric takes the edge in melee combat when not using divine power. But nerfing a class and then stating that it's far weaker than people think isn't exactly fair game, especially on the rules forum.


----------



## Seeten

I dont always remember what rules are house rules. I'm old.

LOL.


----------



## Christian

Seeten said:
			
		

> Perhaps I am at work and dont have my books here, but isnt RSoP 1/2 bab? If it isnt, it sure is in my campaign.



 Book has 3/4 BAB, same as a cleric.


----------



## Felon

Someone said:
			
		

> And Tempests give up nothing compared to a fighter. They gain everything a Fighter gets, and more. They become the ultimate two weapon fighters. If you have Improved two weapon fighting and spring attack, there's no reason not to take the Tempest class.




The big flaw in this analogy is that the Tempest does not in fact gain access to fighter feats as it progresses, whereas the RSoP continues to gain cleric spell progression. The tempest loses access to the fighter's primary class feature, while the RSoP doesn't.

This is a problem that PrC's oriented towards clerics and sorcerers have. They have no class features to surrender other than spellcasting progression. Give the PrC full spellcasting progression, and it gets the full benefit of the base class. All you can do to compensate is either lower BAB & HD, or stiffen up the requirements so the class has to sacrifice feats (sacrificing skill points is a minor consideration for clerics & wizards).

On a side note, the tempest is not even a particularly powerful two-weapon fighter build. It's just an interesting variant. Spring Attack and Mobility do not synergize with two-weapon fighting until the tempest hits 5th-level and gets the capstone ability, and even that is rather mild. If one has access to PHBII, Complete Warrior, and Complete Adventurer feats, then taking fighter levels is probably a better power-play.


----------



## Felon

I'm surprised the Sacred Fist rates any outcry. Its full BAB progression is just a patch for having to multi-class between to classes with medium BAB. If it had to suck up another a +0 BAB upon entry, it'd be pretty well hamstrung.


----------



## Felon

As for candidates that actually ought to be on this list, it almost goes without saying that the majority of PrC's from Book of Exalted Deeds should be here. Do I need to get into specifics?

Then there's the Ruathar from Races of the Wild. which is a walk-in for anyone who makes light work of the "great service" requirement (the author provided a loophole with the "save an elf's life" criterion). d6 hit dice, 4 skill points, a smattering of other class features, and full spellcasting progression on top of it. Pretty generous.


----------



## Felix

pawsplay said:
			
		

> _And the answer is, "Every cleric of Pelor probably would take this class"._
> 
> Um, no. Only ones who want to highly specialize in two things. As already pointed out, Healing is not a commonly taken domain. The costs to get in, while not odious, are not insignificant. I would agree with, "Every Cleric of Pelor, who has the Sun domain, who plans to specialize in healing, but who would rather have divine feats than Augmented Healing at lower levels, and has a decent Int score or is human... probably would take this class."



Which only serves to make my point stronger. Thanks. I was throwing the "RSoP = Cleric+" a bone, but if you don't want to do that, that's fine too.


----------



## Someone

Felon said:
			
		

> The big flaw in this analogy is that the Tempest does not in fact gain access to fighter feats as it progresses, whereas the RSoP continues to gain cleric spell progression. The tempest loses access to the fighter's primary class feature, while the RSoP doesn't.




Of course it's not exactly the same, of else it wouldn't be an analogy. The point stands, however; once you have the requisites, and you want to improve your TWF you'd better taking tempest levels instead of Fighter levels.



> This is a problem that PrC's oriented towards clerics and sorcerers have. They have no class features to surrender other than spellcasting progression. Give the PrC full spellcasting progression, and it gets the full benefit of the base class. All you can do to compensate is either lower BAB & HD, or stiffen up the requirements so the class has to sacrifice feats (sacrificing skill points is a minor consideration for clerics & wizards)
> 
> On a side note, the tempest is not even a particularly powerful two-weapon fighter build. It's just an interesting variant. Spring Attack and Mobility do not synergize with two-weapon fighting until the tempest hits 5th-level and gets the capstone ability, and even that is rather mild. If one has access to PHBII, Complete Warrior, and Complete Adventurer feats, then taking fighter levels is probably a better power-play.




I hope you're kidding there, but still. From this and other posts I'm deducting that the problem isn't really with the radiant servant, but the cleric class. We should level that to the "most broken base clases", not the "most broken prestige classes"


----------



## Felix

Slaved said:
			
		

> I would have no problem with it being true that only the domain slots prepared with healing domain spells work with the classes ability, but you have not shown that it is the case. There are several places which point to the opposite so far in fact.
> 
> <several posts later>
> 
> If you have something which actually goes against the wording that has been provided from the books so far I'd be happy to see it.




*Originally posted by Mistwell, post #104*

By your logic, if I have protection from good on my domain spell list, then if I prepare it in a non-domain spell slot, I cannot swap that spell out for a cure spell. Why? Because it's considered a domain spell even it isn't prepared in a domain slot, and domain spells cannot be swapped out for cure spells.

However, you and I both know that isn't how the game functions. You don't keep track of both domain slot spells and any spell that might be on a domain spell list but which is prepared in a regular slot, for purposes of what can be swapped.

All the wording on page 32 of the PHB backs up the argument that a domain spell is a spell cast from a domain spell slot. The wording in the glossary does as well. And the wording of the page 31 PHB footnote does as well. And logic does as well for purposes of the debate over this prestige class.

---

*Originally posted by Felix, post 103*

Also, the text says, "casts a domain spell from the healing domain". The footnote for the cleric table on page 31 of the PHB states:

"In addition to the stated number of spells per day for 1st through 9th level spells, a cleric gets a domain spell for each spell level, starting at 1st. The "+1" in the entries on this table represents that spell. Domain spells are in addition to any bonus spells the cleric may recieve for having a high Wisdom score."​

[Emphasis added]

This footnote does clearly seperate domain spells from the other spells the cleric may cast from their spell list and those gained from a high Wisdom.
​
I think perhaps these citations are what NilesB refers to when he mentions Empower Healing not applying to every healing spell cast. Your response to the glossary entry is "the glossary sucks". Not a terribly robust argument.


----------



## Felon

Someone said:
			
		

> Of course it's not exactly the same, of else it wouldn't be an analogy.




A fairly obtuse response, as I did not merely suggest "they're not the same", I said you'd made an outright flawed analogy.



> The point stands, however; once you have the requisites, and you want to improve your TWF you'd better taking tempest levels instead of Fighter levels.




The point does not stand. The point has in fact been dismantled, with reasons I clearly laid out. The RSoP retains the cleric's primary class feature (spellcasting progression), while the Tempest does not retain the fighter's primary class feature (bonus feats). 



> I hope you're kidding there, but still.




Not at all, and again I explained it all for anyone willing to read and accept the facts. If someone's playing a hardcore 2WF build, then every feat that character takes should augment 2WF. Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack simply don't do that, and the latter two are antithetical. Even the 5th-level capstone, Two-Weapon Spring attack, offers a limited payback. The character has gone 5 levels in a class to get what benefit exactly? He'll have a BAB of at least +11, so if he's a serious 2WFer he does he not bounce around making two stabs a round. He gets up close and buzzsaws his opponents with six attacks (or seven, with the right items), and stays there until the opposition is pureed. So, 2WSA nets him one free attack while closing, which you can out of the Two-Weapon Pounce feat.



> From this and other posts I'm deducting that the problem isn't really with the radiant servant, but the cleric class. We should level that to the "most broken base clases", not the "most broken prestige classes"




Perhaps, but the radiant servant could have been a little more balanced against its features. Seems like missing one level of progression at second or third level would have done the trick. And where does the martial weapon proficiency even come from? Lowered to rogue hit dice, but given access to martial weapons? Anyone else smell a non sequitor? It's not like this is at all common; PrC's almost never offer weapon or armor proficiiences. Heck, these days prestige classes don't even bother including weapon and armor proficiencies in their descriptions anymore.


----------



## Slaved

Felix said:
			
		

> I think perhaps these citations are what NilesB refers to when he mentions Empower Healing not applying to every healing spell cast.




Unfortunately those citations are at best implying what some here are stating as pure fact. It is true that the cleric gets an extra domain spell for each spell level, other than 0th of course, but that does not negate the other arguements about what a domain spell is. It is just not firm enough to make the call, especially when other parts, at the very least, suggest otherwise.

Of course it would make sense that when they say domain spell they actually mean a spell from a domain cast from a domain slot but, given the lack of evidence, it appears that it is not actually stated. 



			
				Felix said:
			
		

> Your response to the glossary entry is "the glossary sucks". Not a terribly robust argument.




Since that was in response to someone saying that the glossary conflicts with itself it seems fairly appropriate. Especially when there are parts of the glossary which flatly contradict rules in the book, as shown in other threads on this board. If a claim is made to use the glossary, and then that leads to a possible contradiction, then stating that the glossary is known to make mistakes (and thereby "sucks") is the next logical step.


----------



## Slaved

Felon said:
			
		

> And where does the martial weapon proficiency even come from?




That is weird isn't it? Maybe it is because this deity has the war domain as well? It seems to devalue the war domain by giving these proficiencies.


----------



## Felix

Slaved said:
			
		

> It is just not firm enough to make the call, especially when other parts, at the very least, suggest otherwise.



Would you do me the favor of citing those passages which support your claim, or list the post numbers that I may find where you cite them?



> Of course it would make sense that when they say domain spell they actually mean a spell from a domain cast from a domain slot but, given the lack of evidence, it appears that it is not actually stated.



Lack of evidence?

Posts #103 and 104 cite you pages 31 and 32 in the PHB where the one extra spell clerics gain as a "domain spell". Does this not constitue evidence?

Similarly, Mistwell's argument that because a spell is on a domain list, and therefore by your reasoning would always and everywhere qualify as a domain spell, this prepared spell would not be able to be spontaneously converted into a _Cure_ or _Inflict_. Would you not agree that this is consistent with your argument? And if it is consistent with your argument, do you rule clerics with the Protection domain who prepare a _Protection from Evil_ in a non-domain spell slot may not spontaneously convert that spell into a _Cure Light Wounds_? If this is not how you rule, how do you reconcile your two rulings?



> If a claim is made to use the glossary, and then that leads to a possible contradiction, then stating that the glossary is known to make mistakes (and thereby "sucks") is the next logical step.



There is a contradiction between the glossary and the text on this issue only if you rule that  the "domain spell" title is applied to any spell on a domain list regardless of its appearance on the Cleric spell list as well.

In such a case where there is a contradiction with one ruling and no contradiction with another, does this not support the ruling that lacks the contradiction?


----------



## pawsplay

Felon said:
			
		

> Perhaps, but the radiant servant could have been a little more balanced against its features. Seems like missing one level of progression at second or third level would have done the trick. And where does the martial weapon proficiency even come from? Lowered to rogue hit dice, but given access to martial weapons? Anyone else smell a non sequitor? It's not like this is at all common; PrC's almost never offer weapon or armor proficiiences. Heck, these days prestige classes don't even bother including weapon and armor proficiencies in their descriptions anymore.




Sacrificing a caster level is a cute idea, but there are three problems. First, it slows down access to healing domain spells, which is antithetical to the class's concept. Second, if a character enters the class with any non caster levels, such as a single fighter level, that makes the problem even worse. For instance, a fighter 1/cleric 8 enterting the class would gain no additional proficiencies, but would eventually be down two caster levels. Three, the class is not built around SLAs or melee, so if you don't have spells, what do you have?

Losing a good Will save seems nonsensical. Reducing Fortitude would be problematic for an undead slaying class. You can't go below 2+Int skill points a level. Poor BAB would interfere with undead slaying, and would be a double whammy for a PrC for a medium BAB class. Their skill list is already smaller than the cleric's list. Reducing turn undead ability would be... stupid beyond words. 

What does that leave? You could yank martial weapon proficiencies, but that would do little to "balance" the class while presumably detracting from whatever reason they were put their in the first place (possibly to wield sunswords or holy weapons of various sorts). You can reduce hit dice. You could yank the bonus domain, which would do little to balance the class while detracting significantly from the flavor, and further remind clerics with the Healing domain how much you despise them. 

Since the class's two main schticks, healing and defeating undead by using their turning abilities, are not front line abilities, reducing the hit die is not illogical. 

I think the main way the class could be improved would be to require an Initiate of Pelor feat as a prerequisite, cementing their role as "the cleric of Pelor's cleric of Pelor" while increasing the opportunity cost. An alternative would be to add Improved Turning to the prereqs, along with the Extra Turning they already have, making them less of a skip and a jump for a Divine Metamagic maniac.


----------



## Particle_Man

Slaved said:
			
		

> That is weird isn't it? Maybe it is because this deity has the war domain as well? It seems to devalue the war domain by giving these proficiencies.




Pelor's domains are: Glory, Good, Healing, Strength and Sun.  War is not among his domains.


----------



## Slaved

Particle_Man said:
			
		

> Pelor's domains are: Glory, Good, Healing, Strength and Sun.  War is not among his domains.




Sorry, remembered strength and thought war


----------



## Herzog

I am rather surprised no one mentioned the Arcane Hierophant yet.

It's the first (and so far only) PrC I consider too powerfull both as a Player AND as a DM.

However, if someone could point out to me why this PrC is balanced, I might be convinced otherwise.

Herzog


----------



## Arkhandus

Frenzied Berserker.  I have to at least mention that onerous error in the editors' and designers' judgment.  It was bad enough being printed so carelessly in 3.0, but then to be reprinted more or less verbatim and still completely unhinged?

*shakes his head in shame*


----------



## Moon-Lancer

Herzog said:
			
		

> I am rather surprised no one mentioned the Arcane Hierophant yet.
> 
> It's the first (and so far only) PrC I consider too powerfull both as a Player AND as a DM.
> 
> However, if someone could point out to me why this PrC is balanced, I might be convinced otherwise.
> 
> Herzog





loosing caster levels on both ends? its strong, I agree.


----------



## EyeontheMountain

If there is a harder Prestige class to qualify for thean Arcane Heirpophant, i don't know what it is. I would probably not allow it if I was starting at high level, jsut like i would be leery of Mystic Theurge or any otehr class that has a really painful few levels. 

I doubt many would tkae Arcane Heirophant if htey ahd to play through the first 7(?) levels befroe you can qualify for the class. With all that multi-classing, it would be a real struggle.


----------



## Moon-Lancer

I agree on that too. While the prc is strong, i dont know if i would ever play one for what charicter has to give up to get into the class. im not a big fan of the dual caster prcs. too many caster levels lost.


----------



## Herzog

My biggest issue with it is that it duplicates the Mystic Thuerge, with only slightly higher requirements (which will be met whenever you have druid as the devine caster class instead of cleric,and only one or two levels later) ,while retaining most of your class features _and _ getting a whole list of additional class features.

Maybe my fault is comparing to Mystic Thuerge, but since that is the Core Prestige Class that resembles it the most, I can't help but wonder what they where thinking when they build this class.

Herzog


----------



## hong

Speaking of the mystic theurge, I still remember Hyp predicting what would happen now they had an arcane/divine spellcaster PrC: next would be arcane/arcane, then divine/divine, etc, etc leading to the ultimate situation of one PrC for every possible combination of spellcaster or spellcaster-lookalike. And now IT'S COMING TRUE


----------



## Seeten

Never doubt Hypersmurf.


----------



## Elemental

Talkkno said:
			
		

> Planar Shepard(Faiths of Eberron)
> Like a druid, only better.(Wild shaping into outsiders, gaining supernatural and spell likes, full caster, animal compain progression....Planar bubble time trait abuse.)




The Planar Shepherd is quite hilarously broken. Some classes probably looked okay on paper, or are tame unless combined with something else from another book. But the PS makes you wonder if it's some sort of very subtle joke, satire or test being made of DM's. It's painfully obvious that it didn't see any playtesting whatsoever while the pages of flavour text were being written.

The abuses are legion--to name one, take Shavrath as your plane and then you can change to Glabrezu form to grant everyone Wishes. Once everyone has an inherent +5 to all their stats, you can change into an archon and gain spell-like abilities equal to your normal spells per day.

If creatures from other books are allowed, it shoots through the roof! Change into an Elemental Weird, and you can use Foresight, Find the Path and Discern Location as supernatural abilities at will, as a free action, plus the ability to summon elementals.


Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil makes it too easy to become functionally invulnerable (violet + green veil means you are impervious to all spells, and anyone who hits you in melee must make a Fortitude and Will save-or-lose, taking CON damage even if they pass the second).


----------



## starwed

> Maybe my fault is comparing to Mystic Thuerge, but since that is the Core Prestige Class that resembles it the most, I can't help but wonder what they where thinking when they build this class.



If you go mystic theurge with a cleric, the only class ability you lose is turning.  But if you go mystic theurge with a druid, you miss out on abilities like wildshape, a significant part of the druid's power.  So a druid/arcane PrC has to function differently than a cleric/arcane PrC like the MT.  (Assuming that the druid and cleric are of the same powerlevel in the first place.)


----------



## pawsplay

starwed said:
			
		

> If you go mystic theurge with a cleric, the only class ability you lose is turning.  But if you go mystic theurge with a druid, you miss out on abilities like wildshape, a significant part of the druid's power.  So a druid/arcane PrC has to function differently than a cleric/arcane PrC like the MT.  (Assuming that the druid and cleric are of the same powerlevel in the first place.)




Doesn't AH even get a HD upgrade, though?


----------



## NilesB

Slaved said:
			
		

> Unfortunately those citations are at best implying what some here are stating as pure fact.



As opposed to your side which has *at best* unbacked assertions that create logical inconsistencies in the rules and are _repeatedly_ implied to be false?


----------



## Someone

Felon said:
			
		

> A fairly obtuse response




That's rich coming from you.



> as I did not merely suggest "they're not the same", I said you'd made an outright flawed analogy.




No, it's not, as you would understand if you tried to understanb the argument better. Then you may would be able to the plank in your eye. The argument repeated by the Radiant servant's bashers is that _once you have all the requisites_ there's no reason not to take the class. And I seriously believe that _once you have the requisites_ is better to go into tempest than continuing adquiring fighter levels.



> The point does not stand. The point has in fact been dismantled, with reasons I clearly laid out. The RSoP retains the cleric's primary class feature (spellcasting progression), while the Tempest does not retain the fighter's primary class feature (bonus feats).




You dismantled nothing: those reasons are nothing but a big fat red herring. If a tempest lose 2 and a half feats compared to a fighter means nothing when he gets better skills and gains class abilities worth of 5 or more feats. The fact that all tempest will have Spring attack and by you Spring attack is worth  for TWFers isn't relevant at all, because Spring attack belongs to *the class' requisites*

But if you have a problem with the Tempest analogy, I have others for you: by the Radiant servant is cleric+ crowd, the arcane trickster is better wizard than the wizard, because _once you have the requisites_ arcane trickster offers a ton of benefits in exchange for two bonus feats. The Mystic theurge is better wizard than the wiard because _once you have the requisites_ is a no brainer to take Mystic theurge instead of Wizard levels. The archmage is better wizard than the wizard because _once you have the requisites_ Archmage gets additional features. The divine oracle is a better cleric than the cleric because _once you have the requisites_ the divine oracle has the cleric's spellcasting progression and additional features.

If you are tempted to discuss the power of builds of those classes, please don't. It's not what the argument is about.




> the radiant servant could have been a little more balanced against its features. Seems like missing one level of progression at second or third level would have done the trick. And where does the martial weapon proficiency even come from? Lowered to rogue hit dice, but given access to martial weapons? Anyone else smell a non sequitor? It's not like this is at all common; PrC's almost never offer weapon or armor proficiiences. Heck, these days prestige classes don't even bother including weapon and armor proficiencies in their descriptions anymore.




Yeah, martial weapon proficiencies is so broken compared to, say, Deathless Frenzy, that is no surprise that Radiant servants always end in "most broken prestige classes threads". True that it's abit strange, but it's a bit laughable to see people tearing his hair off because of that.


----------



## Slaved

NilesB said:
			
		

> As opposed to your side which ...




...works so long as you read my posts.

I have said that it does not appear anywhere to call directly for a domain spell to be cast merely from the domain slot that is given for it. This still looks to be true. There are some rules that are written which make the situation very strange indeed but still a serious lack of calling for that slot specifically. So right now we have one side with rules backing that leads to situations that are probably not intended vs another side with possibly implied rules but with a result that makes some people feel better. I would prefer a solid rules basis for the rules forum personally, even if it leads to some parts of the system being very strange. although I would likely use the other in my game. If pointing out a rules problem makes it go to errata someday I will be happy.


----------



## Felon

Someone said:
			
		

> That's rich coming from you.




How so? I have kept my posts relevant to stating straightforward logic and simple facts, whereas you are doing what so many internet posters try to do, which is skate by on attitude and snarkyness. 



> And I seriously believe that _once you have the requisites_ is better to go into tempest than continuing adquiring fighter levels.




Again, I will get knee-deep into specifics and then wait to see if the ante will be met. The tempest provides a nice PrC for the likes of rogues and scouts that dip into fighter for a level or two, as they lend themselves to "stick-and-move" tactics that make use of spring-attacking and tumbling away. But that diehard 2WFer isn't a rogue or scout. He's about unleashing full-round attacks, taking no more than a 5-foot step if at all possible, which means he's got every reason to be wearing heavy armor (or medium if he can get mithral plate) and thus little use for Spring Attack or Tumble. He does not need two-weapon versatility either, as he's using a double-weapon, or two bastard swords or waraxes (or dealt with it some other way). Ambidexterity is definitely appealing, and would be a must-have if compacted into a smaller level sink, but four levels to eliminate a -2 penalty rubs away the luster.



> But if you have a problem with the Tempest analogy, I have others for you: by the Radiant servant is cleric+ crowd, the arcane trickster is better wizard than the wizard, because _once you have the requisites_ arcane trickster offers a ton of benefits in exchange for two bonus feats. The Mystic theurge is better wizard than the wiard because _once you have the requisites_ is a no brainer to take Mystic theurge instead of Wizard levels. The archmage is better wizard than the wizard because _once you have the requisites_ Archmage gets additional features. The divine oracle is a better cleric than the cleric because _once you have the requisites_ the divine oracle has the cleric's spellcasting progression and additional features. Again, simple, manifest logic.
> 
> If you are tempted to discuss the power of builds of those classes, please don't. It's not what the argument is about.




This comes across as "here are a bunch of vague generalizations. If you're tempted to point out the holes in these generalizations, please don't because it's not relevant". If you don't want your assertions rebutted, then don't make them. If you don't think challenging the accuracy of your assertions is relevant, then the assertions weren't relevant in the first place. Again, simple, manifest logic.


----------



## Umbran

Someone said:
			
		

> That's rich coming from you.





I imagine that, in the heat of the moment, you may be tempted to forget that we ask you to keep things civil around here, that The Rules ask you to not get personal and insulting, or use language Grandma wouldn't like (even if it is caught bythe filter).

Don't give in to temptation.  That goes for everyone here.


----------



## Cyronax

billd91 said:
			
		

> The discussion about the Rainbow Servant has gotten me thinking. I am starting to come around to the idea that a significant portion of the cleric's (and druid's) balance is a fairly limited set of spells available to them. Since they can prep anything off their class lists, any additions to that list have to be weighed particularly carefully.
> I'm discovering this in a game I'm running because the addition of Complete Spell Compendium has significantly ratched up the power of the cleric in the party. I'm tempted to say that the cleric's or druid's spell list is fixed at a certain number of spells - the number in the PH. Any additions from other sources must be met with reductions from that list.
> If you use a game with the Rainbow Servant, you might want to consider doing that as well.




I got around divine spellcasters ability to choose any spell from any source at any time by implementing the following house rule. Its worked exceedingly well, and it gives the divine spellcasters something they sorely lack: spell choice individualism. (see my web page for more details). 

Divine Spellcasters: The spell lists of divine casters are limited to those presented in PH and a number of spells per spell level equal to the character’s permanent Wisdom modifier. These spells must be approved by me first, and once chosen are considered fixed. These additional non-core spells can be swapped out for new ones every time a divine spellcaster gains access to a new spell level.

C.I.D.


----------



## Someone

Felon said:
			
		

> How so? I have kept my posts relevant to stating straightforward logic and simple facts, whereas you are doing what so many internet posters try to do, which is skate by on attitude and snarkyness.




Absolutely not. You stubbornly refuse to discuss or even acknowledge the argument; instead, forget it (I don't know if deliberately of because you don't understand it) and proceed to discuss if the analogies presented are perfect or not and calling people names.




> This comes across as "here are a bunch of vague generalizations. If you're tempted to point out the holes in these generalizations, please don't because it's not relevant". If you don't want your assertions rebutted, then don't make them. If you don't think challenging the accuracy of your assertions is relevant, then the assertions weren't relevant in the first place. Again, simple, manifest logic.




Ok, I'll try to make it simpler. Is or is not true that many prestige classes offer objectively better benefits, _once you've met the requisites_ than continuing adquiring levels in the base class?


----------



## Mistwell

Slaved said:
			
		

> Oh, and mistwell, I disagree with your assessment given your lack of proof.




Forgive me, but that was a non-responsive response.

Here is what I wrote:



			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> By your logic, if I have protection from good on my domain spell list, then if I prepare it in a non-domain spell slot, I cannot swap that spell out for a cure spell.  Why?  Because it's considered a domain spell even it isn't prepared in a domain slot, and domain spells cannot be swapped out for cure spells.
> 
> However, you and I both know that isn't how the game functions.  You don't keep track of both domain slot spells and any spell that might be on a domain spell list but which is prepared in a regular slot, for purposes of what can be swapped.
> 
> All the wording on page 32 of the PHB backs up the argument that a domain spell is a spell cast from a domain spell slot.  The wording in the glossary does as well.  And the wording of the page 31 PHB footnote does as well.  And logic does as well for purposes of the debate over this prestige class.
> 
> If you think your interpretation and the competing one are both reasonable, and one results in the prestige class being significantly more powerful than the other, and you already think the prestige class is very powerful, then logic dictates you choose the reasonable interpretation that grants less power for the already "overpowered" prestige class.




Do you have a response?  If not, that's okay.  It's not like I think what I wrote is particularly brilliant or anything.  But grouping that whole statement and saying "I disagree because you have no proof" isn't really a response to what I said.

You then go on to say:



			
				Slaved said:
			
		

> ...works so long as you read my posts.
> 
> I have said that it does not appear anywhere to call directly for a domain spell to be cast merely from the domain slot that is given for it. This still looks to be true. There are some rules that are written which make the situation very strange indeed but still a serious lack of calling for that slot specifically. So right now we have one side with rules backing that leads to situations that are probably not intended vs another side with possibly implied rules but with a result that makes some people feel better. I would prefer a solid rules basis for the rules forum personally, even if it leads to some parts of the system being very strange. although I would likely use the other in my game. If pointing out a rules problem makes it go to errata someday I will be happy.




We've read your posts.  We've responded, in detail, to your posts.  Nobody has ignored or misinterpreted your posts that I am aware of. 

We have in response asked you to clarify these rules you say you have pointed out that support your side, and you have not responded directly to that request.

We have offered our own citation to rules, and you have not responded directly but repeated the claim that we lacked proof.

We have offered our own analysis and contentions that would tend to contradict your position, like the one above in this post, and you have not responded directly.

At this point, I am not sure where we can go with this.  If we respond, and you don't respond in kind but instead repeat a statement that doesn't directly address what you seem to be responding to, what else can we do?

We've listed the rules that support our side, and asked for you to cite any rules that support your side.  Please do so.  We've also offered analysis that contradicts your position.  Please explain why our analysis is flawed in your opinion.


----------



## EyeontheMountain

Someone said:
			
		

> Ok, I'll try to make it simpler. Is or is not true that many prestige classes offer objectively better benefits, _once you've met the requisites_ than continuing adquiring levels in the base class?




Well, allow me to jump in and get flamed

Someone, the problem I see with yoru argument is that you are looking at whatthe calss gets when compared to a straight archtypical charcter of the same general abilities. Radiant Servant--CLeric etc. While that is one way to compare, I think you need to take more into account, namely the prerequisites of that prestige class, and what it has cost you versus the benefits of the standard class.

How about archmage, which you brought up.
Spell focus (2 schools)
Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
15 ranks in spellcraft and Know-Arcane. 
One feat you would have gotten from 5 wizard levels

So we have three weak feats and the 15 ranks is heavy, but arguable. Personally I rarely go that high, and tend to top out at about 10+ modifiers.

YMMV, but I consider this four wasted feats and 10 wasted skill points to enter the class.

In return you get normal BAB, HP, skills and Saves, so no problem or benefit there.

And you get five special abilities. Spell power is not very good, so let's look at Mastery of Energy, Mastery of Shaping and the Spell-like abilities.

Mastery of energy is nice, maybe even great. But bythis level the Wizard's best spells have nothing to do with hit point damage anyway, or are force/disintigration realted anyway. Generally I have found that with Energy Sub:Sonic, I have no real problems with energy resistances, and if I go fire with Searing Heat from Sandstorm, I can laugh at Fire resistance, and even immunity is not too bad.

But for argument I will say it is worth 1-1.5 feats.

Mastery of Shaping is even better, espeically if you are a blaster, and even for non blast spells like dismissal, or prismatic effects it is nice to be ableto ignore your allies. However, for a feat taken much earlier, you can do this for a modest level bump. But still 1.5 feats about?

Now spell-like abilities are tough as Wizards do not have many slots at all, anyway. Spendingthe 6th elvel slotto cast fireball 4 ties a day is not bad, but ponying up a 5th level slot(one of the most valuable in the gmae) really hurts. 

So I would put each ability at roughly at .75 to 1 feat.  

Compared this way, i would say it is balanced. Compared without prerequisites, it is of course far superior to 5 levels of wizard. One reason prestige classes like the Incantrix, with its laughable entry requirements AND bonus feats is too strong. I mean really, who would not take incantrix and complain about taking  a metamagic feat? That is the purpose of the class.


----------



## Someone

EyeontheMountain said:
			
		

> Well, allow me to jump in and get flamed
> 
> Someone, the problem I see with yoru argument is that you are looking at whatthe calss gets when compared to a straight archtypical charcter of the same general abilities. [snip]




You are very much right! It doesn't follow logically that a class is broken if it offers Very Good Things (because the abilities offered to identical characters are objectively better than those offered by the base class, or because the class doesn't have real downsides compared to the base class) because there are other means to balance the class. The inability of making a similar character only with the base class that has the same abilities as the base+prestige doesn't mean that the class is broken. It's a shame we've spent a page stablishing an almost trivial truth, but once we agree on this we can discard the "radiant Servant is Cleric+" argument and continue discussing the class.

Generally, the two most prevalent balancing factors are: the class upgrades options that otherwise would be very suboptimal (like multiclassing cleric and wizard) or because the requisites aren't exactly powerful, like forcing you to choose Toughness.

I'll argue first that the the requisites for Radiant Servant doesn't make the class _powerful_; it makes it topical -the turning and healing cleric- but weak compared to other Cleric builds. To get the Radiant Servant's full class bonuses, you must have arguably the worst core domain for a Good cleric (Healing) and one that certainly isn't in the top list (Sun). And you must live with those two domains for 6 levels -excuse me, until you get the third one, and that's IIRC at 11th level at the very least-

Second, the class' top abilities aren't broken. Turning is very much situational, and the Greater turning ability is nice, but only much better than regular turning when the undad turned has means to quickly flee and wait for the turning effect to end. I'll also refer to articles written by others cleraly stating how turning becomes less and less effective at higher levels, due to the monster's hit die increasing much faster than the character's hit die and the prevalence of Turn Resistance.

Also, the improved spells of the Healing domain are good, but can be hardly overpowered: it's a reactive ability. They are just a handful every day, and don't improve Heal, the combat spell that can really make a difference at high levels.

If anything, the Radiant Servant takes the cleric concept people hate to play and improves it, and not by much.


----------



## Felix

Slaved said:
			
		

> ...I have said that it does not appear anywhere to call directly for a domain spell to be cast merely from the domain slot that is given for it...



Would you please cite the rules to which you refer to as supporting your argument, or cite the post numbers in which you do so.



			
				Cyronax said:
			
		

> ...



Hey, Cy!


----------



## Cyronax

Felix said:
			
		

> Hey, Cy!




Hey yourself Felix. Long time no see. You've racked up quite a lot of messages.

As an aside, I'm playing a TN human barbarian/cleric of Olidammara (with the Celerity domain and soon Divine Vigor -- insane natural speed + spells + feats) through Living Greyhawk (you ever want to try LG Felix?). Anyway, looking at this build, I am extremely short of PrC options. Why has the rainbow servant and the radiant servant of Pelor sucked up all this fury. The true crime is the lack of effective cleric type PrCs for off the wall divine caster types. 

Maybe I should have just made him an elf and could have taken a few levels in wildrunner. 

Oh well. More on topic.......

Speaking of other broken prestige classes (and on the weak side of the spectrum),

I always thought the lack of a spell progression really made the Hierophant (3.5 DMG) a very ugly choice for players. I don't know if it deserves a full spell progression, but the Archmage by contrast seems pretty powerful. Both the High Arcana and the Hiero's Special Ability seem equal in power. 

Thoughts??

C.I.D.


----------



## Felon

Someone said:
			
		

> Ok, I'll try to make it simpler. Is or is not true that many prestige classes offer objectively better benefits, _once you've met the requisites_ than continuing adquiring levels in the base class?




Well, I'd say I already addressed that question back in the very first post of mine that you replied to. Some base classes have only one class feature that improves with level progression, so they have little to trade off. If a prestige class adds a new suite of features without subtracting from the one primary feature, then it's a net gain. Arcane-oriented PrC's are particularly known for this, because you can't make a wizard's hit dice, BAB, skill points, or saves any worse than they already are without killing the bugger. 

So, to be sure, the radiant servant is not the sole culprit. But it is a culprit, and in some ways (that have been mentioned ad nauseum) it's a pretty outstanding instance of one.


----------



## Someone

Felon said:
			
		

> Well, I'd say I already addressed that question back in the very first post of mine that you replied to. Some base classes have only one class feature that improves with level progression, so they have little to trade off.




I'm very sorry, but I can't just believe you just said that. _I can't frigging believe you just said that_.   



> If a prestige class adds a new suite of features without subtracting from the one primary feature, then it's a net gain.




A net gain would be if A-B>0, being A the PrC benefits and B the features lost. B=0 it's just an example. Have I even disagreed with it? _That doesn't make the class broken, because there are other balancing mechanisms_.


----------



## EyeontheMountain

Cyronax said:
			
		

> I always thought the lack of a spell progression really made the Hierophant (3.5 DMG) a very ugly choice for players. I don't know if it deserves a full spell progression, but the Archmage by contrast seems pretty powerful. Both the High Arcana and the Hiero's Special Ability seem equal in power.
> C.I.D.




I do not likethe Heirophant, as their abilities are on apr with or slightly weaker tahn the wizard's but htey get no new spells.

Of course I consider it a grand addition after 20th level, when caster progression is already at 20th and cannot improve more. Getting 5 epic feats in a row cannot be bad.


----------



## Felon

pawsplay said:
			
		

> Losing a good Will save seems nonsensical. Reducing Fortitude would be problematic for an undead slaying class. You can't go below 2+Int skill points a level. Poor BAB would interfere with undead slaying, and would be a double whammy for a PrC for a medium BAB class. Their skill list is already smaller than the cleric's list. Reducing turn undead ability would be... stupid beyond words.




Well, reducing BAB would work. The class focuses on destroying undead with massive quantities positive energy. Reducing Fort save works as well (the whole point of trading some element down is that it's "problematic").


----------



## Felon

Someone said:
			
		

> I'm very sorry, but I can't just believe you just said that. _I can't frigging believe you just said that_.




Mm-kay. 



> A net gain would be if A-B>0, being A the PrC benefits and B the features lost. B=0 it's just an example. Have I even disagreed with it? _That doesn't make the class broken, because there are other balancing mechanisms_.




Looking back at my original post and the subsequent dialogue, I don't see me using the term "broken" anywhere, or making that big a deal out of the RSoP to begin with. Most of it had to do with the evaluation of the tempest PrC.

The RSoP gains a lot, sacrifices little, and gets MWP for no apparent reason, when virtually no other PrC offers a weapon proficiency upgrade (it happens to be something many players covet for various builds, like getting an elven scout scimitar proficiency before he becomes a dervish).


----------



## Felix

Felon said:
			
		

> The RSoP gains a lot,



The RSoP gains:

Greater Turning 3+CHA times per day
_Turning is a situational ability governable by the DM; it will be more or less useful depending upon how often undead are encountered._​
*Radiance*, doubling the area of all [Light] spells. 
_It's a flavorful ability, but not terribly powerful._​
Divine Health. 
_Like Radiance, it's flavorful (with god of Healing), and is useful (especially vs Mummys) but isn't terribly powerful either._​
Empower Healing.
_Meh. It's only if you have the Healing Domain and only if you prepare a Healing spell as a domain spell, Slaved's argument notwithstanding._​
Aura of Warding. 
_Nice ability. At 3rd level (min char level 9) it's the best ability so far. All near him gain it._​
Bonus Domain. 
_Nice ability. Class level 5, Min character level 11_​
Maximize Healing. 
_Meh. It's only if you have the Healing Domain and only if you prepare a Healing spell as a domain spell, Slaved's argument notwithstanding._​
Positive Energy Burst.
_Only effective against Undead._​
Supreme Healing.
_Meh. See above._​
All of the abilities above which are not defensive in nature (and therefore will generally be slightly more powerful than equivalent offensive abilities) or only useful against undead (the usefulness of which will therefore be determined by the DM) were *Bolded*. Take a look. 

...

Only Radiance was bolded, and that because I really couldn't say that it is much of a defensive ability. The RSoP does not gain much on the Cleric that is not versus undead or healing.



> sacrifices little,



A Cleric built to become a RSoP is constrained to:

Extra Turning, 5 ranks Heal, 9 ranks Know(religion)
_You may say this is not much of a sacrifice since a lot of clerics will take them anyway, but a RSoP does not even have the option not to take them_​
Sun domain

Healing Domain 
_But only if he wants to be able to take advantage of his Empower/Maximize/Supreme Healing abilities, Slaved's evidence pending_​

A Cleric built to become a RSoP sacrifices:

d8 hit die for a d6.

Lawful Good
Chaotic Good
Lawful Neutral
True Neutral
Chaotic Neutral
Lawful Evil
Neutral Evil
Chaotic Evil

Worshipping:
Bahmut
Boccob
Corellon Larethian
Ehlonna
Erythnul
Fharlanghn
Garl Glittergold
Gruumsh
Heironeous
Hextor
Kord
Kurtulmak
Lolth
Moradin
Nerull
Obad-Hai
Olidammara
St. Cuthbert
Tiamat
Vecna
Wee Jas
Yondalla​
If these last two arn't some of the absolute harshest pre-requisites I've ever seen, I'll eat my hat. You have no kind of option but to be a Neutral Good Pelorian. This is about as narrow a demographic as I've ever seen.

As I said earlier, the only thing a RSoP gains over a single-classed cleric is effectiveness versus undead and healing. _It is entirely appropriate that Pelorian cleric be more effective than other clerics at fighting undead and healing_. Nor is it disrupting since the degree to which undead are present are out of the PC's hands, and I have never, _ever_ even heard of groups complaining about too much healing.

Oh, and the RSoP can't become Lawful Good, Chaotic Good, or True Neutral at the penalty of complete and total PrC ability loss, even though Pelor does have clerics of those alignments. 



> and gets MWP for no apparent reason,



Agreed; this is odd. Meh.


----------



## Caliban

Felix said:
			
		

> The RSoP gains:
> 
> 
> Only Radiance was bolded, and that because I really couldn't say that it is much of a defensive ability. The RSoP does not gain much on the Cleric that is not versus undead or healing.




Greater Turning isn't offensive?  Your analysis seems somewhat biased.


----------



## Particle_Man

Felix said:
			
		

> Oh, and the RSoP can't become Lawful Good, Chaotic Good, or True Neutral at the penalty of complete and total PrC ability loss, even though Pelor does have clerics of those alignments.




Actually, a Cleric of a good god like Pelor cannot be True Neutral, since a cleric cannot be True Neutral unless their God is. [/nitpick]


----------



## Felon

Felix said:
			
		

> The RSoP gains:
> 
> Greater Turning 3+CHA times per day
> _Turning is a situational ability governable by the DM; it will be more or less useful depending upon how often undead are encountered._​




Divine feats are pretty common in sourcebooks these days. Right now, I've got paladins and clerics who use their TU's strictly for Divine Ward and Divine Metamagic. Turning ain't just undead for undead anymore. 



> Radiance
> Divine Health.
> Empower Healing.
> Aura of Warding.
> Bonus Domain.
> Maximize Healing.
> Positive Energy Burst.
> Supreme Healing




Plenty of class features gained at the cost for an average of 1 HP/level.



> A Cleric built to become a RSoP is constrained to:
> 
> Extra Turning, 5 ranks Heal, 9 ranks Know(religion)
> _You may say this is not much of a sacrifice since a lot of clerics will take them anyway, but a RSoP does not even have the option not to take them_​




Let's throw the brakes on that rationalization post-haste. I've seen it time and again. If someone argues that a prestige class has effortless requirements, and that point simply can't be contested, some folks try to counter-argue by making a loss of options sound significant even when they have negligible impact on a character's effectiveness. For instance, if a prestige class requires you to wear shoes, you've lost the precious option not to wear shoes, and that's a big deal--after all, when you were a cleric, you had the privilege of being barefoot.  

It's a terrible form of equivocation that ignores the concept of pragmatism. At the end of the day, when totaling and ranking a cleric's assets, how does its class skill list rate? When a party doesn't have a cleric, do they suffer for the absence of certain skillsets that no other class provides? When a cleric winds up with an 8 in Int, is he significantly less effective than the cleric who winds up with a 16 INT because of all those skill points he gains? Is the latter cleric better off for that 16 being in INT than he would be assigning it elsewhere? Concentration is important for casting defensively, but what other skills are really essential? Looking at the big picture from all angles, throwing 14 skill points in a hole does not seriously hamper its effectiveness. 



> Lawful Good
> Chaotic Good
> Lawful Neutral
> True Neutral
> Chaotic Neutral
> Lawful Evil
> Neutral Evil
> Chaotic Evil
> 
> Worshipping:
> Bahmut
> Boccob
> Corellon Larethian
> Ehlonna
> Erythnul
> Fharlanghn
> Garl Glittergold
> Gruumsh
> Heironeous
> Hextor
> Kord
> Kurtulmak
> Lolth
> Moradin
> Nerull
> Obad-Hai
> Olidammara
> St. Cuthbert
> Tiamat
> Vecna
> Wee Jas
> Yondalla​
> If these last two arn't some of the absolute harshest pre-requisites I've ever seen, I'll eat my hat.




Well, I hope you got some salt, because this is another rationale that lacks pragmatism. It ignores the fact that characters are built by player choices. Alignment and deity are not something randomly generated. If someone wants to be a RSoP, they'll make sure they write the proper alignment and deity in the right fields. That's not hard at all, unless it can demonstrated that being a NG worshipper of Pelor imposes some significant detriment upon how effectively a character can be what he is: as a divine-casting adventurer. It doesn't.



> As I said earlier, the only thing a RSoP gains over a single-classed cleric is effectiveness versus undead and healing. _It is entirely appropriate that Pelorian cleric be more effective than other clerics at fighting undead and healing_. Nor is it disrupting since the degree to which undead are present are out of the PC's hands, and I have never, _ever_ even heard of groups complaining about too much healing.




These are pretty reasonable general comments about the class. The only thing I see a need to point out is that "groups" don't have to complain about too much healing for it to be problematic for the DM. Too much healing can lead to "arms race" scenarios in the same way that too much damage-dealing capability can.

But again, I have no real beef with the RSoP, it's just plain to see it's getting more effectiveness than it gives up.


----------



## DM_Matt

Caliban said:
			
		

> Greater Turning isn't offensive?  Your analysis seems somewhat biased.




The National Association For the Advancement of Corpse-People finds Greater Turning very offensive, I assure you.  They issued a press release n everything...


----------



## hong

Felix said:
			
		

> If these last two arn't some of the absolute harshest pre-requisites I've ever seen, I'll eat my hat. You have no kind of option but to be a Neutral Good Pelorian. This is about as narrow a demographic as I've ever seen.




See, I wouldn't actually call this factor "harsh" at all. In a stereotypical dungeoncrawling campaign, it's often entirely secondary what deity you worship, only what alignment you are. An NG Pelorian is as generic as you can get; heck, Jozan is a NG Pelorian IIRC.

Now perhaps in a campaign where deity issues are more prominent, or dungeoncrawling isn't the chief pursuit, this might be more significant. As it stands though, I doubt a lot of players would consider having to worship Pelor to be that big a deal.



> As I said earlier, the only thing a RSoP gains over a single-classed cleric is effectiveness versus undead and healing. _It is entirely appropriate that Pelorian cleric be more effective than other clerics at fighting undead and healing_. Nor is it disrupting since the degree to which undead are present are out of the PC's hands, and I have never, _ever_ even heard of groups complaining about too much healing.




Similarly, healing and bashing undead are the two biggest stereotypical requirements of a D&D cleric.

I think this is the main beef with the RSoP, really. Basically, it's just... a cleric. It gets new powers that beef up what a cleric would do anyway, and the requirement that you worship Pelor is a non-issue most of the time. Hence it shouldn't be a surprise that people are questioning why you need a PrC if all it is, is a souped-up cleric.


----------



## Felix

Caliban said:
			
		

> Greater Turning isn't offensive?  Your analysis seems somewhat biased.



Ahem.



			
				Felix said:
			
		

> All of the abilities above which are not ... only useful against undead were Bolded.



So Greater Turning wasn't bolded.


----------



## hong

What might be interesting to see is if there were TWO prestige classes for Pelor, one focusing on the Sun domain (undead-killing) and one on Healing.


----------



## pawsplay

hong said:
			
		

> I think this is the main beef with the RSoP, really. Basically, it's just... a cleric. It gets new powers that beef up what a cleric would do anyway, and the requirement that you worship Pelor is a non-issue most of the time. Hence it shouldn't be a surprise that people are questioning why you need a PrC if all it is, is a souped-up cleric.




I think that is a very valid criticism of the PrC, one I touched on earlier in the thread. But the RSoP being what it is, I have trouble finding fault with the PrC, except for wondering why it has martial weapons proficiency.


----------



## Felix

Felon said:
			
		

> Divine feats are pretty common in sourcebooks these days. Right now, I've got paladins and clerics who use their TU's strictly for Divine Ward and Divine Metamagic. Turning ain't just undead for undead anymore.



So compared to a regular cleric who can also take Divine Feats, or not, how does the RSoP gain an advantage?



> Plenty of class features gained at the cost for an average of 1 HP/level.



The Monk gets class features at almost every level. This does not mean that they are very good. 



> Let's throw the brakes on that rationalization post-haste. I've seen it time and again. If someone argues that a prestige class has effortless requirements, and that point simply can't be contested, some folks try to counter-argue by making a loss of options sound significant even when they have negligible impact on a character's effectiveness. For instance, if a prestige class requires you to wear shoes, you've lost the precious option not to wear shoes, and that's a big deal--after all, when you were a cleric, you had the privilege of being barefoot.
> 
> It's a terrible form of equivocation that ignores the concept of pragmatism. At the end of the day, when totaling and ranking a cleric's assets, how does its class skill list rate? When a party doesn't have a cleric, do they suffer for the absence of certain skillsets that no other class provides? When a cleric winds up with an 8 in Int, is he significantly less effective than the cleric who winds up with a 16 INT because of all those skill points he gains? Is the latter cleric better off for that 16 being in INT than he would be assigning it elsewhere? Concentration is important for casting defensively, but what other skills are really essential? Looking at the big picture from all angles, throwing 14 skill points in a hole does not seriously hamper its effectiveness.



Which would you rather: have an option for 14 skill points, or not?

It may not be much of a disadvantage, and I don't argue that it is much of one, but since I'm being fair by listing everything that the RSoP _gets_, no matter how quibbling Empower Healing is going to be in game-play, allow me the same. A single-classed cleric can choose where his skills go, a RSoP has _less of a choice_.



			
				Felon said:
			
		

> Well, I hope you got some salt, because this is another rationale that lacks pragmatism. It ignores the fact that characters are built by player choices. Alignment and deity are not something randomly generated. If someone wants to be a RSoP, they'll make sure they write the proper alignment and deity in the right fields. That's not hard at all, unless it can demonstrated that being a NG worshipper of Pelor imposes some significant detriment upon how effectively a character can be what he is: as a divine-casting adventurer. It doesn't.






			
				hong said:
			
		

> See, I wouldn't actually call this factor "harsh" at all. In a stereotypical dungeoncrawling campaign, it's often entirely secondary what deity you worship, only what alignment you are. An NG Pelorian is as generic as you can get; heck, Jozan is a NG Pelorian IIRC.
> 
> Now perhaps in a campaign where deity issues are more prominent, or dungeoncrawling isn't the chief pursuit, this might be more significant. As it stands though, I doubt a lot of players would consider having to worship Pelor to be that big a deal.



Does alignment and deity matter to you? Are they utterly arbitrary when you make characters? Does it sit right with you that your honorable, just and forthright fighter revels in Erythnulian blood-frenzy orgies?

Do you care about what alignment your character is? Does your wizard hold more interest for you if you know that he is also a deacon at the Boccobite church and represents his commitment with ranks in Knowledge (Religion)?

If alignment and patron deity matter to you, this will be an enormous restriction. If you don't give a four-letter-word, then naturally: this restriction won't mean a thing to you. As I said:



			
				Felix said:
			
		

> Only if the choice of alignment, deity and domans means nothing to you can you delcare that this is not a signifigant restriction on the character. And if you believe that the choice of alignment, patron deities and domains means nothing, then there's nothing further to discuss.






			
				Felon said:
			
		

> But again, I have no real beef with the RSoP, it's just plain to see it's getting more effectiveness than it gives up.



If you don't believe requiring NG Pelorians is giving something up, you're right. And it's getting more effective at healing and turning. These abilities are not going to break a character or campaign.



			
				hong said:
			
		

> I think this is the main beef with the RSoP, really. Basically, it's just... a cleric. It gets new powers that beef up what a cleric would do anyway, and the requirement that you worship Pelor is a non-issue most of the time. Hence it shouldn't be a surprise that people are questioning why you need a PrC if all it is, is a souped-up cleric.



It's a souped-up cleric if patronage means nothing, sure. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Doc Midnight's Knights of Spellforge Keep, but Vek Mormont sure wouldn't make sense as a Pelorian. Grubber from JollyDoc's Age of Worms wouldn't make sense as a Pelorian. Eadric from SepulchraveII's Tales of Wyre, though a paladin, wouldn't make sense if he worshipped a NG god like Pelor.

It matters to me who my characters worship, and I think it should matter to players. I'll have a whole lot worse problems with a game whose characters are as faceless and vanilla as Jozan than if the Radiant Servant of Pelor is overpowered.


----------



## hong

Felix said:
			
		

> Does alignment and deity matter to you? Are they utterly arbitrary when you make characters? Does it sit right with you that your honorable, just and forthright fighter revels in Erythnulian blood-frenzy orgies?




D00d. Dungeon. Monster. Kill. Stuff. Take.

Dungeons. And. Dragons.
Game.



> Do you care about what alignment your character is? Does your wizard hold more interest for you if you know that he is also a deacon at the Boccobite church and represents his commitment with ranks in Knowledge (Religion)?




If those ranks in Knowledge (Religion) help you identify those people with red circles around their feet, no problem!



> If alignment and patron deity matter to you, this will be an enormous restriction.




True. And if casting meteor swarm matters to me, that too is an enormous restriction.



> If you don't give a four-letter-word, then naturally: this restriction won't mean a thing to you.




D00d, you're allowed to say frig.



> It's a souped-up cleric if patronage means nothing, sure.




"I'm going to make Pelor an offer he can't refuse!"



> I'm not sure if you're familiar with Doc Midnight's Knights of Spellforge Keep, but Vek Mormont sure wouldn't make sense as a Pelorian. Grubber from JollyDoc's Age of Worms wouldn't make sense as a Pelorian. Eadric from SepulchraveII's Tales of Wyre, though a paladin, wouldn't make sense if he worshipped a NG god like Pelor.




So. Did any of these characters kill monsters and take their stuff?



> It matters to me who my characters worship,




MAMMON!



> and I think it should matter to players.




BLOOD!



> I'll have a whole lot worse problems with a game whose characters are as faceless and vanilla as Jozan than if the Radiant Servant of Pelor is overpowered.




Clearly you have not grokked the Tao of 3.5.


----------



## Felon

Felix said:
			
		

> The Monk gets class features at almost every level. This does not mean that they are very good.




To reiterate: the cleric gains no class features after first level other than spell and turning progression. The RSoP gets all of that, plus a suite of other abilities. That's good. That's a boost.



> It's a souped-up cleric if patronage means nothing, sure.




OK, good, we're in accord then.



> It matters to me who my characters worship, and I think it should matter to players. I'll have a whole lot worse problems with a game whose characters are as faceless and vanilla as Jozan than if the Radiant Servant of Pelor is overpowered.




The bottom line here is, you're talking about a restriction on conceptual options for a character as compensation mechanical benefits, and hearkening at least as far back as the 1e cavalier, that's just never a good thing. RP-oriented limitations are suitable tradeoffs for RP-oriented benefits, while mechanical limitations are the appropriate cost of mechanical benefits. Keep those two character elements separate.


----------



## NilesB

Felix said:
			
		

> Greater Turning 3+CHA times per day
> _Turning is a situational ability governable by the DM; it will be more or less useful depending upon how often undead are encountered._​



Not just any undead, in order for greater turning to have any meaningful effect on play the undead must be:

Turnable, for by the time the ability is gained an increasing number of undead have to many hit dice and turn resistance to be turned.

Not destroyable, for the weakest undead can already be destroyed without the aid of this ability.

Capable of flight and dangerous return, many undead when turned, are either bashed  to death without resistance while cowering in a corner, or simply removed from combat and never thought of again by the DM.

Finally, it must not be the first encounter that meets these criteria in the day, for any cleric with the Sun domain may use greater turning 1PD.

I would expect all told, the median number of times per campaign an RSoP's greater turning ability is actually relevent is zero.


----------



## Felix

hong said:
			
		

> D00d. Dungeon. Monster. Kill. Stuff. Take.
> 
> Dungeons. And. Dragons.
> Game.



I'm getting Bad-Wrong-Funned by hong? How embarassing.



			
				Felon said:
			
		

> The bottom line here is, you're talking about a restriction on conceptual options for a character as compensation mechanical benefits, and hearkening at least as far back as the 1e cavalier, that's just never a good thing.



The cavalier did not specalize in healing and undead-fighting; these two specialties don't steal the thunder of other PCs: healing allows them to keep doing whatever it is they do, and turning makes undead easier for the party to handle and allows the RSoP to shine in a non-support, but ultimately situational and DM controlled, role. There is a difference between this and the cavalier, is there not?

Like NilesB noted, the Sun domain's granted power won't come into play much. The Healing domain frankly stinks, unless you really dig the role-playing aspect of being a healer.

So the thankless and why-doesn't-anyone-want-to-play-a-cleric role of party healer is now more attractive.

This is a good thing.


----------



## hong

Felix said:
			
		

> I'm getting Bad-Wrong-Funned by hong? How embarassing.




Insert rollplayer comment here.


----------



## Particle_Man

The campaigns I am in are more gamist, I guess.

Character creation goes like this:

"We need a healer."

"Ok, I'll take a Cleric with a Healing Domain, to be better at it."  (Note carefully how the Healing Domain is seen as valuable, since it helps with the cleric's primary function)

"Hey look at this prestige class!  It lets you be better at healing, at no serious cost."

"Ok, Cleric of...Pelor...NG...and working towards Radiant Servant of Pelor."

This happens a lot in my gamist campaign, and I bet, since many campaigns are gamist, it happens a lot in other campaigns.  And thus the roleplaying restrictions are meaningless in those campaigns, as are the skill point allocations (the party has the "skill guy"; he is called the Rogue).  Thus the prestige class simply out clerics the cleric, in the cleric's primary gamist role as "the healer/undead turner", in gamist campaigns.

The one exception to this conversation I encountered in the gamist campaign was the guy who went for the Sentinel of Barai from BoED because he wanted to turn into a Bear.

But in no case does the cleric remain a cleric to level 20.  There is simply no mechanical reason to.


----------



## Felix

Particle Man said:
			
		

> But in no case does the cleric remain a cleric to level 20. There is simply no mechanical reason to.



With a PrC that continues turning, quite right.

Less of a problem with the PrC than the cleric base class. Not that I think it's much of a problem.



> The campaigns I am in are more gamist, I guess.
> 
> Character creation goes like this:
> 
> "We need a healer."
> 
> "Ok, I'll take a Cleric with a Healing Domain, to be better at it."



Heh, my group's character creation looks more like:

"We need a healer."

...

...

"Guys, we really do need a healer."

"Playing a cleric sucks..."

"I've already got a cool backstory worked out for my Barbarian."

"Ugh, look: my ranger has _CLW_ on his spell list so keep me stocked with wands and we'll be fine."

---

Not that this comments upon the RSoP, but I've noticed a profound lack of desire to play clerics in my groups.


----------



## hong

Felix said:
			
		

> The cavalier did not specalize in healing and undead-fighting; these two specialties don't steal the thunder of other PCs:




By this logic, a PrC for wizards that doubles meteor swarm damage is okay, because hey, nobody else casts meteor swarms.


----------



## Felix

hong said:
			
		

> By this logic, a PrC for wizards that doubles meteor swarm damage is okay, because hey, nobody else casts meteor swarms.



The cavalier offered mechanical advantages allowing him to go out and kill things more easily.

A Wizard PrC that doubles meteor sward damage allows him to go out and kill things more easily.

A Cleric PrC specialized in healing allows _other PCs_ to go out and kill things more easily.

A Cleric PrC specialized in Undead-turning keeps unmanagable numbers of undead away until all the PCs' abilities can be used to overcome the challenge. Destroying undead throws the cleric a bone, though those undead likely wouldn't have proven much of a challenge since they qualify for getting destroyed, as NilesB argues.

Note the subtle differences.


----------



## hong

Felix said:
			
		

> A Cleric PrC specialized in healing allows _other PCs_ to go out and kill things more easily.




Somehow, I suspect this is not going to make people who think clerics are boring change their mind.



> A Cleric PrC specialized in Undead-turning keeps unmanagable numbers of undead away until all the PCs' abilities can be used to overcome the challenge. Destroying undead throws the cleric a bone, though those undead likely wouldn't have proven much of a challenge since they qualify for getting destroyed, as NilesB argues.




Ditto.


----------



## jasin

Felix said:
			
		

> The cavalier offered mechanical advantages allowing him to go out and kill things more easily.
> 
> A Wizard PrC that doubles meteor sward damage allows him to go out and kill things more easily.
> 
> A Cleric PrC specialized in healing allows _other PCs_ to go out and kill things more easily.



Actually, this is the best argument for the RSoP not being overpowered that I've seen. This is why the bard is considered weak, despite the huge boost the party can get from bardic music: by most people's scale, an ability that lets someone else deal +110 damage isn't quite as powerful as an ability that lets _you_ deal +100 damage.

However...


> A Cleric PrC specialized in Undead-turning keeps unmanagable numbers of undead away until all the PCs' abilities can be used to overcome the challenge. Destroying undead throws the cleric a bone,



... it is my opinion that clerics don't need to be thrown a bone. They're useful for the whole party, powerful personally and fun to play, at least for some people. And I don't think just boosting the class all the way until even people who don't like the concept want to play it for the goodies is a valid design principle.

But a big part of my problem with the RSoP is that it further specializes in two of the cleric's deafault specialties. The loremaster is a bit of a something-for-nothing class too, but it slips under the rader easier because at least it boosts the wizard's secondary area of expertise, not his primary one. RSoP feels like a loremaster that gives the wizard more spell slots.


----------



## Someone

jasin said:
			
		

> RSoP feels like a loremaster that gives the wizard more spell slots.




¿Did you check the last two "secrets"?


----------



## Cyronax

jasin said:
			
		

> But a big part of my problem with the RSoP is that it further specializes in two of the cleric's deafault specialties. The loremaster is a bit of a something-for-nothing class too, but it slips under the rader easier because at least it boosts the wizard's secondary area of expertise, not his primary one. RSoP feels like a loremaster that gives the wizard more spell slots.




I'm glad someone else agrees with this! I always thought the loremaster was a bad example of a PrC for the DMG. By all accounts in 3E/3.5E design, PrCs are supposed 'unlock' abilities that can't be managed through normal multi-classing as well as adding some mechanical flavor and variety to a world. The DM of course is supposed to provide the roleplay aspect of the flavor of a the eliteness of a PrC. 

I hate what's happened with PrCs in general, but these opinions have been aired many times across the internet I'm sure. 

I hope that any future editions of D&D refine their initial offerings of PrCs, because the DMG's are piss poor as a guide for custom PrCs. Loremasters is very simple for a wizard to get, but hard for others. 

Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil by contrast has very niche requirements, and definetely gives a lot of power to its members. I'd rather go with this model of PrC then the RSoP or the loremaster. Most of my campaigns follow on with this type, which makes culling PrCs into a list of availability a fun chore to do. 

End rant -- D&D's all about options and at least 3E has given us a lot of that. Rule 0 ... yadda yadda.

Oh, and to rebut Felix -- you're wrong in every point you make, and I won't cite posts or even make a cogent argument to back this statement up. Colbert Report logic? Yes.   

Nice reference to Vek Mormont though, he really was a great character.    

C.I.D.


----------



## Felix

Cyronax said:
			
		

> Oh, and to rebut Felix -- you're wrong in every point you make, and I won't cite posts or even make a cogent argument to back this statement up. Colbert Report logic? Yes.



Take a number. 



			
				jasin said:
			
		

> ... it is my opinion that clerics don't need to be thrown a bone.



Look at what destroying undead actually does for a cleric: it gets rid of undead that are vulnerable tp being destroyed. This will generally mean that the undead are individually much weaker than the PCs, and that the undead are mobbing the PCs. Destroying won't target the most powerful undead until all the other undead are gone, and then only if the most powerful undead has few enough HD and no turn resistance. In a room full of undead, the RSoP will destroy the weakest, most fragile undead in a very cool and cinematic way. He will destroy the undead that pose least a threat.


----------



## billd91

Particle_Man said:
			
		

> The campaigns I am in are more gamist, I guess.
> 
> Character creation goes like this:
> 
> "We need a healer."
> 
> "Ok, I'll take a Cleric with a Healing Domain, to be better at it."  (Note carefully how the Healing Domain is seen as valuable, since it helps with the cleric's primary function)




That's still kind of weird for gamists. +1 CL on healing spells (which doesn't really always come into play due to level modifier caps) vs a domain that expands the cleric's spell list or adds other powers? It's not a strong choice by any means.

The best reason to take it is because you're planning on some other choice in the character's future, like RSoP. Pay the opportunity cost now in order to get something better later.


----------



## Particle_Man

billd91 said:
			
		

> That's still kind of weird for gamists. +1 CL on healing spells (which doesn't really always come into play due to level modifier caps) vs a domain that expands the cleric's spell list or adds other powers? It's not a strong choice by any means.




There is a class that is versatile in magic already.  It is called the Wizard.  The Cleric role is by default for healing the party, which the Wizard cannot do.  Anything that makes the healer better at healing is a Good Thing (tm) from that pov.  The +1 CL comes into play at every Cleric level when casting their best cure wounds spells.

If a prestige class makes the Cleric better at healing, with (from this pov) trivial prerequisites, there is no reason not to take that prestige class.  Unless one really wants to be a bear.


----------



## rgard

Thanee said:
			
		

> What's so great about Mystic Theurge with Ur-Priest?
> 
> Bye
> Thanee




You can get one 9th level arcane and one 9th level divine spell by 20th character level.  That for me makes it a fun class combo.

I actually don't have any kind of problem with Ur Priest, nor using it with the MT.

Thanks,
Rich


----------



## DreadArchon

Felix said:
			
		

> Heh, my group's character creation looks more like:
> 
> "We need a healer."
> 
> ...
> 
> ...
> 
> "Guys, we really do need a healer."
> 
> "Playing a cleric sucks..."
> 
> "I've already got a cool backstory worked out for my Barbarian."
> 
> "Ugh, look: my ranger has _CLW_ on his spell list so keep me stocked with wands and we'll be fine."



Mine are more like:
"What do we already have?"
"A cleric, three wizards, and a rogue."
"Cool, I'll play a Sorceror."

At any rate, I still think that RSoP is balanced because it's so restrictive.  I haven't seen anything here that shakes that.


----------



## rgard

Sejs said:
			
		

> Ur-Priest has its own 9-levels-of-spells-over-10-levels-of-class spellcasting progression.
> 
> 1) get into Ur-Priest.
> 2) get into Mystic Theurge
> 3) apply Mystic Theurge's divine spellcasting progression to Ur-Priest.
> 4) cast 9th level arcane and divine spells by around 17th level.




Hey this is post 666 for me!!!  Of course we won't be able to see that after the next post.

Actually, I've run a character up to Epic with the above combo.  You can't get 9 and 9 before 20th level as you use up 2 levels with Ur-Priest pushing your level for arcane to 19th for 9th level arcane spells.

Thanks,
Rich


----------



## rgard

Thanee said:
			
		

> Ah, I see. The prerequisites are kinda low, which allows you to get into Mystic Theurge with just Wizard 5/Ur-Priest 1.
> 
> Yeah, that makes the combination even better than 'just' the Ur-Priest itself.
> 
> Bye
> Thanee




You'll need 2 levels of Ur-Priest to qualify for MT.


----------



## rgard

DreadArchon said:
			
		

> You forgot "Never take multiclass penalties again and Druids may wear metal armor" at level 1.
> 
> I have a player going for that right now, except that he's only taking one level each of Druid and Bard and he's applying the bonuses to Cleric and Warlock progression (Warlocks can Shatter and Dimension Door at will... !).  I'm allowing it.  It's good, but not broken.




Yes, I like that combo as well.


----------



## rgard

Herzog said:
			
		

> I am rather surprised no one mentioned the Arcane Hierophant yet.
> 
> It's the first (and so far only) PrC I consider too powerfull both as a Player AND as a DM.
> 
> However, if someone could point out to me why this PrC is balanced, I might be convinced otherwise.
> 
> Herzog




Just that the trade off is that you get lots of lower level spells, but delay access to higher level spells.  I do agree that it is powerful...and better than the MT.


----------



## NilesB

rgard said:
			
		

> You'll need 2 levels of Ur-Priest to qualify for MT.



Not to mention that it's impossible for a 5th level wizard to qualify for Ur-Priest.


----------



## rgard

NilesB said:
			
		

> Not to mention that it's impossible for a 5th level wizard to qualify for Ur-Priest.




Yes, thanks.  I was about to point out the skill requirements.  Brutal unless you mitigate it with Able Learner.

Thanks again,
Rich


----------



## rgard

NilesB said:
			
		

> Not to mention that it's impossible for a 5th level wizard to qualify for Ur-Priest.




Going back to the Wiz/UrPriest/MT combo, it was fun figuring out the earliest (lowest level entry) for both Ur Priest and MT and the desire to get 9th level arcane and 9th level divine by 20th character level.  And it was fun playing the character up to Epic.

That said, you are capped out at one 9th level divine spell (barring an outrageous wisdom bonus) and it never gets better.  

I won't ever re-engineer the Ur-priest part of the character, but once you get to Epic levels you do find yourself wondering whether the fast spell progression was worth the loss of numbers of higher level divine spells as compared to the Cleric or Favored Soul.

Thanks,
Rich


----------



## jasin

Someone said:
			
		

> ¿Did you check the last two "secrets"?



I quite forgot about that, since they're so crap.

Which actually illustrates my point: +2 to Fort is better than an extra 1st level slot for a 10th or so level wizard, but I find it less annoying if the PrC grants +2 Fort than another 1st level slot. Because a wizard with +2 Fort is a wizard, only tougher. A wizard with extra spell slots is a wizard, only more wizardly, which I don't think is a valid concept.


----------



## WarlockLord

Somebody mentioned True Necromancer as overpowered.  How?


----------



## NilesB

rgard said:
			
		

> Yes, thanks.  I was about to point out the skill requirements.  Brutal unless you mitigate it with Able Learner.



The Fortitude requirement keeps anyone who hasn't taken any levels of a class with good fortitude saves out until at least 10th level.


----------



## Felon

NilesB said:
			
		

> Not just any undead, in order for greater turning to have any meaningful effect on play the undead must be:
> 
> Turnable, for by the time the ability is gained an increasing number of undead have to many hit dice and turn resistance to be turned.
> 
> Not destroyable, for the weakest undead can already be destroyed without the aid of this ability.
> 
> Capable of flight and dangerous return, many undead when turned, are either bashed  to death without resistance while cowering in a corner, or simply removed from combat and never thought of again by the DM.
> 
> Finally, it must not be the first encounter that meets these criteria in the day, for any cleric with the Sun domain may use greater turning 1PD.
> 
> I would expect all told, the median number of times per campaign an RSoP's greater turning ability is actually relevent is zero.




...until the players realize that turn undeads are now no longer actually for turning undead, but rather for powering divine feats. Don't even need a good Cha for most of'em.


----------



## Felon

Felix said:
			
		

> Heh, my group's character creation looks more like:
> 
> "We need a healer."
> 
> ...
> 
> ...
> 
> "Guys, we really do need a healer."
> 
> "Playing a cleric sucks..."
> 
> "I've already got a cool backstory worked out for my Barbarian."
> 
> "Ugh, look: my ranger has _CLW_ on his spell list so keep me stocked with wands and we'll be fine.")




Heh, my group also believes a ranger with CLW wands is all the healing that's needed. MMORPG's teach a lot of folks that it's far better to be buffing or attacking than healing. Healing is just bailing water out of a sinking ship. It's far better to be really good at blasting those icebergs into little pieces before they can do any real damage.

Which is probably why I'm ultimately indifferent about the RSoP's excessiveness.


----------



## Elethiomel

Felon said:
			
		

> ...until the players realize that turn undeads are now no longer actually for turning undead, but rather for powering divine feats. Don't even need a good Cha for most of'em.



This raises the question: Do Greater Turning attempts count as Turn Undead attempts for the purposes of Divine feats? It is a different ability, after all.


----------



## pawsplay

Elethiomel said:
			
		

> This raises the question: Do Greater Turning attempts count as Turn Undead attempts for the purposes of Divine feats? It is a different ability, after all.




The question itself is wrong. Greater turning describes what you can do with a turning attempt. It does not provide any turning attempts.


----------



## DarkJester

There are very few prestige classes I think are outright broken. These are some of the ones I think are pretty powerful. 

Frenzied Berzerker
Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil
Abjurant Champion
Master Specialist
Incantatrix
Planar Shepard
Dweomerkeeper
Shadowcraft Mage
Teflemar (sp?) Shadowlord (combined with other teleportation effects)
Walker in the Wastes
Hulking Hurler (Generally unplayable)
UR Priest​
Others that I dislike single level dips into but I would probably still allow (either to easy to get into, or you get to much out of it in the first couple levels):

Runesmith
Mindbender
Spellsword
Deepwarden​


----------



## pawsplay

rgard said:
			
		

> Going back to the Wiz/UrPriest/MT combo, it was fun figuring out the earliest (lowest level entry) for both Ur Priest and MT and the desire to get 9th level arcane and 9th level divine by 20th character level.




It hardly matters. Wiz 9/Ur 2/MT 9 gets you there, and with caster level 18 for wizard and 20 for cleric.


----------



## rgard

pawsplay said:
			
		

> It hardly matters. Wiz 9/Ur 2/MT 9 gets you there, and with caster level 18 for wizard and 20 for cleric.




Yes, it hardly matters if you are starting out the character at 20th level.  Does matter if your character concept wants the earliest possible qualification for Ur Priest.

Also, you waste a level of MT as you've already hit the max of the Ur Priest PrC at 8th level MT.  Might as well take another level of straight wizard on the back end.

All that said, it's a matter of taste.

Thanks,
Rich


----------



## NilesB

Felon said:
			
		

> ...until the players realize that turn undeads are now no longer actually for turning undead, but rather for powering divine feats. Don't even need a good Cha for most of'em.



Greater turning is of no more use for divine feats than regular turning, if you wanted to support my point that greater turning is a power of almost no utility, thank you.


----------



## Felix

DarkJester said:
			
		

> These are some of the ones I think are pretty powerful.
> 
> Frenzied Berzerker
> Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil



The Berzerker is very powerful on offense, and the Initiate is very powerful on defense. I think there is a _huge_ difference between offense and defense with regard to game balance.


----------



## DarkJester

I agree. But regardless, they are both very powerful in their own ways.


----------



## Gort

I always thought the Weretouched Master from Eberron was terribly broken. Not necessarily because of power level, but because it is imbalanced _within itself_. When you get the ability to turn into your alternate form, you can choose (If I remember correctly) werebear, weretiger, werewolf or wererat.

Well let me see, I can get enormous strength, enormous toughness and a ton of natural armour, or I can be a rat, with a relatively tiny bonus to dexterity. Plus I have to be a rat.

Choices choices. I wonder how many people chose the rat? Or indeed, anything other than the werebear?


----------



## Felon

Elethiomel said:
			
		

> This raises the question: Do Greater Turning attempts count as Turn Undead attempts for the purposes of Divine feats? It is a different ability, after all.





			
				NilesB said:
			
		

> Greater turning is of no more use for divine feats than regular turning.




Sorry, read "Greater Turning" as "Extra Turning". I would agree that greater turning isn't so great--turning undead in general is pretty much just something preserved for legacy gaming.


----------



## kk14

What about the wrecker?

 I don't actually know it.  A friend of mine has secretly started his character on it and thinks it's so cheap he can't tell the rest of us.


----------



## Lord Zardoz

*Lots of hate for the Ur-Priest and Mystic Theurge*

Given the highly effective spell progression of this class, and the relatively low pre-requisites, this is no surprise to me.  However, there are two things I would like to note about this class.

There are at least 2 versions of this class.  One in the Complete Divine, with Spell Focus(Evil) as a pre-requisite.  The other is in the Book of Vile Darkness, with Malign Spell Focus as a pre-requisite.  I suggest going with the BoVD version.  The BoVD is slightly more powerful (Malign Spell focus is a +2 to save DC's for Evil spells instead of the +1 for Spell Focus (Evil) ).  Using the BoVD version also makes the class slightly more restricted, since the Malign Spell Focus requires a pact with some evil power.  In any event, the Ur-Priest is probably much more obviously intended as an NPC class.

As for the other point, I would suggest looking past the purely mechanical aspects of some of these prestige classes.  The Frenzied Berzerker, going by the intent of the class, is probably never going to be encountered with anything in the way of support from allies.  The Ur-Priest steals power from the gods.  Something tells me that the Gods are perfectly capable of defending their turf, what with the devoted followers and stuff.

Now getting back to this thread, what Prestige classes do I consider the most potentially broken?

I would put Mystic Theurge right up there.  Strategically, there is no reason for a Sorcerer not to take the class, and only a minor dis-incentive for a Wizard (loss of the meta magic feats).  However, those that would take this class are already splitting their advancement between Wizard/Sorcerer and a Divine casting class.  At level 20, a standard Wiz / Cleric would have only caster level 10 in both classes to use against   But a Wiz 3 / Clr 3 / Mystic Theurge 14 casts as a 17th level caster in each class.  Its a hell of a choice, either a Hyper Caster with 9th Clr and Wiz spells, or a Nerfed Caster with 5th level spells in each class.

But if you apply the class with a literal mindset, you can only ever have 10 levels of Mystic Theurge, which means at Char 20, you cast as a 15th level caster, getting 8th level spells only.

But yeah..  Trying to stack Ur-Priest with Mystic Theurge reeks of cheese (though i admit to considering doing just that for a BBEG recently).

As a DM, I would probably say that any stacking of prestige class effects is entirely at my discretion.  Prestige classes seem to be balanced in relation to the core classes, not in relation to stacking with one another.

END COMMUNICATION


----------



## Someone

> But a Wiz 3 / Clr 3 / Mystic Theurge 14 casts as a 17th level caster in each class




Would be, if such thing was legal. You can't take more than 10 level in MT before epic levels; and even then, MT epic progression is really lame.


----------



## pawsplay

rgard said:
			
		

> Yes, it hardly matters if you are starting out the character at 20th level.  Does matter if your character concept wants the earliest possible qualification for Ur Priest.




On the other hand, if you're shooting for Wiz 9, why are you in a hurry? Hello 5th level spells. After that's, a refreshing two level dip in the pool and off to the beach for some awesome.


----------



## Elemental

Gort said:
			
		

> I always thought the Weretouched Master from Eberron was terribly broken. Not necessarily because of power level, but because it is imbalanced _within itself_. When you get the ability to turn into your alternate form, you can choose (If I remember correctly) werebear, weretiger, werewolf or wererat.
> 
> Well let me see, I can get enormous strength, enormous toughness and a ton of natural armour, or I can be a rat, with a relatively tiny bonus to dexterity. Plus I have to be a rat.
> 
> Choices choices. I wonder how many people chose the rat? Or indeed, anything other than the werebear?




That got errated. I think it was that you could change into the relevant animal form with your shifting, and also got +6 in relevant physical abilities when shifting.


----------



## EyeontheMountain

Mystic Theurge is fine if you actually have to play through the levels. Starting at first, and suffering mightily till roughly 7th level, and not really starting to shine till about 11th is great for balance. But if you start at 13th or so, it is pretty sweet, but I wold argue it is not unbalanced. 

Of course those who think they can take 11+ levels of it pre-epic break the class for sure. But I cannot figure out how they think they actually can......


----------



## rgard

EyeontheMountain said:
			
		

> Mystic Theurge is fine if you actually have to play through the levels. Starting at first, and suffering mightily till roughly 7th level, and not really starting to shine till about 11th is great for balance. But if you start at 13th or so, it is pretty sweet, but I wold argue it is not unbalanced.
> 
> Of course those who think they can take 11+ levels of it pre-epic break the class for sure. But I cannot figure out how they think they actually can......




Agreed, living through the progression from 1st level is much harder than starting at 13th level.  You're character is a relative punk up until you are casting 5th level arcane and 5th level divine spells.

I think the 11+ level prc discussion is based on an AH with his/her 10 levels of AH then moving on to MT for the remaining 4 levels prior to Epic:

Wiz3/Druid3/AH10/MT4

So the rationale was that if a character could do this legally (tacking on MT after maxing AH) why not just let the MT advance to 14th level.

Thanks,
Rich


----------



## rgard

Lord Zardoz said:
			
		

> Given the highly effective spell progression of this class, and the relatively low pre-requisites, this is no surprise to me.  However, there are two things I would like to note about this class.
> 
> There are at least 2 versions of this class.  One in the Complete Divine, with Spell Focus(Evil) as a pre-requisite.  The other is in the Book of Vile Darkness, with Malign Spell Focus as a pre-requisite.  I suggest going with the BoVD version.  The BoVD is slightly more powerful (Malign Spell focus is a +2 to save DC's for Evil spells instead of the +1 for Spell Focus (Evil) ).  Using the BoVD version also makes the class slightly more restricted, since the Malign Spell Focus requires a pact with some evil power.  In any event, the Ur-Priest is probably much more obviously intended as an NPC class.
> 
> As for the other point, I would suggest looking past the purely mechanical aspects of some of these prestige classes.  The Frenzied Berzerker, going by the intent of the class, is probably never going to be encountered with anything in the way of support from allies.  The Ur-Priest steals power from the gods.  Something tells me that the Gods are perfectly capable of defending their turf, what with the devoted followers and stuff.
> 
> Now getting back to this thread, what Prestige classes do I consider the most potentially broken?
> 
> I would put Mystic Theurge right up there.  Strategically, there is no reason for a Sorcerer not to take the class, and only a minor dis-incentive for a Wizard (loss of the meta magic feats).  However, those that would take this class are already splitting their advancement between Wizard/Sorcerer and a Divine casting class.  At level 20, a standard Wiz / Cleric would have only caster level 10 in both classes to use against   But a Wiz 3 / Clr 3 / Mystic Theurge 14 casts as a 17th level caster in each class.  Its a hell of a choice, either a Hyper Caster with 9th Clr and Wiz spells, or a Nerfed Caster with 5th level spells in each class.
> 
> But if you apply the class with a literal mindset, you can only ever have 10 levels of Mystic Theurge, which means at Char 20, you cast as a 15th level caster, getting 8th level spells only.
> 
> But yeah..  Trying to stack Ur-Priest with Mystic Theurge reeks of cheese (though i admit to considering doing just that for a BBEG recently).
> 
> As a DM, I would probably say that any stacking of prestige class effects is entirely at my discretion.  Prestige classes seem to be balanced in relation to the core classes, not in relation to stacking with one another.
> 
> END COMMUNICATION




I think alot of what annoys people about the Ur-Priest is the 9th level spell at 10th level (sure you can get one at 9th level, but you need a godlike wisdom for that.)  The reality is the character is probably only going to ever get one 9th level divine spell per day.  What does a straight cleric get?  4, I think.  It's an interesting trade off...you rush up the spell levels, but in the long run the character is at a serious disadvantage in relation to a MT who progresses a standard cleric.  

Kinda reminds me of the lure of the dark side in Star Wars.  

The other problem I've found with the Ur-Priest is the caster level.  As you are advancing the class, whether as a straight Ur-Priest or as a Ur-Priest/MT your caster level for doing damage and overcoming SR is crap.  You may cast a flame strike at 6th level Ur-Priest, but if you have no other caster levels you are doing 6d6 not 9d6 as a cleric does.  Once you hit level 10 Ur-Priest, you are only adding 1/2 your other casting levels to caster level 10.

The caster level is a pain at Epic levels where overcoming SR is a constant challenge.  I know you can boost that with divine feats and spells, but everything has a cost and taking those feats precludes taking other feats.

I wonder how many of the Ur-Priest, MT and Ur-Priest/MT detractors have ever played one or DM'd one?

I've seen all 3 sides (played one, DM'd a player who played one and used one as an NPC.  From personal experience it's not overpowered at all.

Thanks,
Rich


----------



## Votan

rgard said:
			
		

> I think alot of what annoys people about the Ur-Priest is the 9th level spell at 10th level (sure you can get one at 9th level, but you need a godlike wisdom for that.)  The reality is the character is probably only going to ever get one 9th level divine spell per day.  What does a straight cleric get?  4, I think.  It's an interesting trade off...you rush up the spell levels, but in the long run the character is at a serious disadvantage in relation to a MT who progresses a standard cleric.
> 
> Kinda reminds me of the lure of the dark side in Star Wars.
> 
> The other problem I've found with the Ur-Priest is the caster level.  As you are advancing the class, whether as a straight Ur-Priest or as a Ur-Priest/MT your caster level for doing damage and overcoming SR is crap.  You may cast a flame strike at 6th level Ur-Priest, but if you have no other caster levels you are doing 6d6 not 9d6 as a cleric does.  Once you hit level 10 Ur-Priest, you are only adding 1/2 your other casting levels to caster level 10.
> 
> The caster level is a pain at Epic levels where overcoming SR is a constant challenge.  I know you can boost that with divine feats and spells, but everything has a cost and taking those feats precludes taking other feats.
> 
> I wonder how many of the Ur-Priest, MT and Ur-Priest/MT detractors have ever played one or DM'd one?
> 
> I've seen all 3 sides (played one, DM'd a player who played one and used one as an NPC.  From personal experience it's not overpowered at all.
> 
> Thanks,
> Rich




I am a little curious as to how the adding of 1/2 levels in other spellcasting classes works for the UR-Priest caster levels.  For example, A wizard 9, Ur-Priest 2, MT 5 -- does he cast divine spells at (4.5+2+5 = 11) or at (4.5+2+5+2.5= 14).  This appears to make a large difference.

At 20th level, a Wizard 6/Fighter 1/Spellsword 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 10 could be casting at level 15 or level 20 depending on how you calculate this.


----------



## rgard

Votan said:
			
		

> I am a little curious as to how the adding of 1/2 levels in other spellcasting classes works for the UR-Priest caster levels.  For example, A wizard 9, Ur-Priest 2, MT 5 -- does he cast divine spells at (4.5+2+5 = 11) or at (4.5+2+5+2.5= 14).  This appears to make a large difference.
> 
> At 20th level, a Wizard 6/Fighter 1/Spellsword 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 10 could be casting at level 15 or level 20 depending on how you calculate this.




When I played the character, I calculated it as the first example: caster level 15 at 20th character level.  After failing to penetrate SR a couple of times, the DM and I reviewed my math and he told me to use the second calculation.  It was better, but it's still a slow increase at .5 per level after that.


----------



## rgard

Votan said:
			
		

> I am a little curious as to how the adding of 1/2 levels in other spellcasting classes works for the UR-Priest caster levels.  For example, A wizard 9, Ur-Priest 2, MT 5 -- does he cast divine spells at (4.5+2+5 = 11) or at (4.5+2+5+2.5= 14).  This appears to make a large difference.
> 
> At 20th level, a Wizard 6/Fighter 1/Spellsword 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 10 could be casting at level 15 or level 20 depending on how you calculate this.




BTW, my version has Duskblade 1 instead of Fighter 1.  Was eventually annoyed with the 10 level cap on Ur-Priest and carried on with Ultimate Magus (wiz and duskblade) in Epic.

Yes, very munster cheese, but it's my favorite character since 1e.


----------



## EyeontheMountain

rgard said:
			
		

> BTW, my version has Duskblade 1 instead of Fighter 1.  Was eventually annoyed with the 10 level cap on Ur-Priest and carried on with Ultimate Magus (wiz and duskblade) in Epic.
> 
> Yes, very munster cheese, but it's my favorite character since 1e.




Must have been a quick campaign as Complete Mage has only been out a few months.


----------



## rgard

EyeontheMountain said:
			
		

> Must have been a quick campaign as Complete Mage has only been out a few months.




Originally started with one level of Paladin of Freedom from UA (used to get the bluff skill).  Then of course was a fallen paladin of freedom at second level (Fallen PoF 1/Wiz 1).

The duskblade part was a re-engineer of the character I did when the PHB2 came out.  The character was 20th level when the Complete Mage came out.  Ultimate Magus looked like a good fit for Duskblade and Wizard.  True Strike comes in real handy when casting ray spells and the Duskblade gets lots of 1st level spells.

So, not as quick as one may assume.

Thanks,
Rich


----------



## Deset Gled

Lord Zardoz said:
			
		

> I would put Mystic Theurge right up there.  Strategically, there is no reason for a Sorcerer not to take the class, and only a minor dis-incentive for a Wizard (loss of the meta magic feats).




My experience would be the exact opposit.  Sorcerers suck as an MT, or at any PrC that requires multiclassing to enter.  They start out being one spell level behind a wizard.  Multiclassing to meet a PrC requirement pushes their progression back even further.

Sorcerers are also in trouble with PrCs that have feat requirements, as they have a very limited number of feats available, so they are very precious.  Spending any feat that doesn't specifically advance your character concept is a major cost.

Sorcerers are also worse off than wizards at PrCs that have skill requirements.  2+int skills per level is very painful when you don't have a ridiculously high INT (like all wizards have).  They don't have very many class skills, either.

In short, sorcerers are screwed when it comes to PrCs.  On paper, it may not look like they give anything up (except a familiar), but the opportunity cost of entering one is often much higher than you think.


----------



## Cactot

DarkJester said:
			
		

> There are very few prestige classes I think are outright broken. These are some of the ones I think are pretty powerful.
> 
> Frenzied Berzerker
> Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil
> Abjurant Champion
> Master Specialist
> Incantatrix
> Planar Shepard
> Dweomerkeeper
> Shadowcraft Mage
> Teflemar (sp?) Shadowlord (combined with other teleportation effects)
> Walker in the Wastes
> Hulking Hurler (Generally unplayable)
> UR Priest​
> Others that I dislike single level dips into but I would probably still allow (either to easy to get into, or you get to much out of it in the first couple levels):
> 
> Runesmith
> Mindbender
> Spellsword
> Deepwarden​




Hulking hurler is the only one out of your list that I think is inherently broken.  Perhaps frenzied beserker is too, for no other reason than the friend killing.

Maybe its just me, but I very rarely see a class that i think is inherently broken.  Most of the exceptionally powerful ones have very harsh entry requirements or very harsh roleplay restrictions.  And even with their terrible power, if there is any modicum of player-dm respect going on, they will not use it to disrupt the campaign.  Frankly a Wizard, Artificer, CoDzilla or whatever in the hands of a powergamer is going to be far more of a threat than an average player using one of these PrC's.

Walker in the wastes has lots of potential, but some of the harshest roleplaying of any class i have run into.  (How does one interact in everyday society as a lich with a mummy following you around?)

Shadowcraft mage is pretty awesome, but not really a game braker.  Though it really is a no-brainer for a gnomish mage.

Planar shepard has the potential to be very very broken (infinite wishes, planar bubble timestop), but do people really try things like that in a real game (outside of the char-op boards)?  Other than those things, which i would be embarassed to even try on a dm, its actually a decent class.

Abjurant champion is decent but not gamebreaking at all (a few extra hp and ac is really all they get)

Initiate of the sevenfold veil is awesome, but has very very steep entry requirements.  Waste 3 feats, and lots of skill ranks (some of which may be cross class).  The feats are a killer, as any arcane caster is typically very short on feats.  The only way for this to be close to "overpowered" is to allow flaws also.

Incantrix is very nice, with specialization with only a one school loss, as well as reduced cost metamagic, definitely a wizard +

I love the deepwarden, equally good as a 2 level dip or a full progression PrC, one of the few that is very nice without being crazy powerful.

I am not terribly familiar with the rest on the list, but i would be interested to hear how exactly they would break a game.


----------



## DarkJester

I don't believe any of them break the game. I prefaced my post a little vaguely, there are no prestige classes which I think are inherently broken. Of all the prestige classes, that list contains the ones I feel are the strongest.


----------



## Cactot

DarkJester said:
			
		

> I don't believe any of them break the game. I prefaced my post a little vaguely, there are no prestige classes which I think are inherently broken. Of all the prestige classes, that list contains the ones I feel are the strongest.




ah, then in that case, i agree entirely


----------



## Quartz

A prestige class that's most definitely broken *as a one level dip* is Divine Crusader with its rapid spell advancement. Purely for the rapid spell advancement.


----------

