# HELP! Rogue/Ranger Tiefling too powerful?!



## Blasphemonkey (Jul 9, 2003)

Hi all, please help the new monkey!   

In my group, we've recently added a new player (well, he's been with us for a few months). He is multiclassing with rogue/ranger. From the ranger side, he can attack with two short swords. From the rogue side, he can sneak attack. So now we've got 4d6 on a sneak attack. He's built up his AC with feats and things, and he's also a tiefling. Using some Forgotten Realms rules on Tieflings, he's grown batwings now. I thought it would be neat would for rp'ing (and it is, actually - I get to have everyone go, "What in the nine hells is that thing?" or run away screaming), so I let him do it, but now he flies around sneak attacking with those damn twin swords of his, and a lot of the group just doesn't get as much action anymore. And wait! That's not all. 

He's going for the the Shadowdancer prestige class, so now he gets to hide in plain sight, and make minions out of his fallen foes. Now the hiding when still being observed thing...can this happen in the middle of melee? I can't see him getting to sneak attack every stinkin' round, plus adding minions every round.
I've been trying to balance it out with multitudes of foes, rather than just one baddie alone, which he trashes too quick (with minimal help from the others), but now with a crowd of baddies, he'll just exponentially make shadow minions with them. Ack!

Everyone is 6th level at this point, and he's more powerful than any two of them put together. Maybe in the higher levels, it'll balance out, but for now...I'm trying to think of ways to tone this PC down without just "being the mean DM" and retroactively changing things. I'm usually pretty resourceful, but I'm stumped here. Besides just throwing loads of constructs/undead/plants at him, what can I do?

Thanks in advance for anyone who can suggest anything.


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## SpikeyFreak (Jul 9, 2003)

1 word: undead

--Simple Spikey


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jul 9, 2003)

Another word: Constructs


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## Blasphemonkey (Jul 9, 2003)

Nine words:

Read the second-to-last sentence of my post.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jul 9, 2003)

Fine fine fine. 



Construct. Singular.


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## Kerrwyn (Jul 10, 2003)

He can only use Hide in Plain Sight in areas of shadows, so spellcasters now have Light and Daylight.  As for the flying part, use something with reach.
Or you could have his demonic/devilish ancestor come a' callin'.


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## Kerrwyn (Jul 10, 2003)

Oh, I forgot.  Displacement works good, along with Fortified armor.  Have your melee fighters ready an action to smack the daylights out of him when he comes within reach.

Hmmm.... Displacement....  Displacer Beasts?  Blink Dogs?  Ooooh, Blink is good too.  Hold Person, Cause Fear, Hold Monster, Dominate Person.

And remember, he only gets the SA if his opponent is flanked or flat-footed.  And I thought that the Shadowdancer could only have one Shadow at a time.


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## Privateer (Jul 10, 2003)

Remember he can only get one sneak attack even if he has two attacks -- only one gets the bonus damage.  You may already know this, but it wasn't clear in your first post.

Armor of fortification can be a spiffy anti-sneak attack thing.

You could always nix the FR feats if you appeal to the player's sense of fair play and game balance... or maybe not, who knows?

Maybe have some sort of minor spider-based villain who has a spell that entagles people and keeps them from flying... preferably something that works outdoors, so something other than web.

You could rule that he has to join an organization for training for the Shadowdancer, and if they send him on quests it could a) if you want, keep him out of the class for a level or two or b) put restrictions upon him, like only using a certain, well, whatever you like.

Say he can't fly if he's wearing a cloak, then a session or two later give him a spiffy cloak that complements his other abilities.  He may take the bait.

Have the enemies sneak up on his party, so that the party doesn't get sneak attacks.

That's all I can suggest, personally...


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jul 10, 2003)

Send him up against an ogre with levels of fighter, power attacking with a great axe.  That the hobgoblin wizard cohort has cast invisibility and  fly on.  Assisted by two goblin rogue cohorts, to keep the melee fighters from setting up flanking.  Add in a little missile fire for suppression, and split the party with a web spell or two.

No need to look for ways to negate sneak attacking; rogues (even rogue-rangers) have other weaknesses: like getting pounded to paste by extremely strong critters with reach.  He's got to stand still for a round to pull off TWF/sneak attack.

Another under-used creature in situations like this: the hydra.  Reach, eight heads, and can make an AoO with every head every round.  

For the future: I suppose you've learned your lesson about allowing thiefling rogues with bat wings.


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## Tabarnak Smokeblower (Jul 10, 2003)

Shadowdancers can in fact only have 1 shadow at a time, and if that shadow dies, it costs the shadowdancer some experience points (as a familiar, IIRC).

Also, multiclassing like that, he must have pretty lousy will saves, and his sneak attack isn't optimal since neither the ranger nor the shadowdancer gives sneak attack profession

What level are the players? what's the potential melee damage output of your fighter type(s)? I'm pretty sure the character doesn't outclass them totally.

It's true, in certain situations, he's deliver massive loads of damage (full flanking attack), but if their opponents are somewhat intelligent, the rogue shouldn't get too many full attacks.

Hope this helps

TS


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jul 10, 2003)

Privateer said:
			
		

> *Remember he can only get one sneak attack even if he has two attacks -- only one gets the bonus damage.  You may already know this, but it wasn't clear in your first post.
> 
> *




Actually, a rogue can get a sneak attack on every attack that meets the requirements, which is why TWF is such a good deal for rogues.


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## Xeoble (Jul 10, 2003)

Edit: What Olgar said, he beat me to it


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## Technik4 (Jul 10, 2003)

You mention youre only 6th level. You know that tiefling has an ECL +1 right? Meaning he should only have 5 actual levels in classes. It appears hes unabashadly used the 'ol 1 ranger trick for 2wf and Ambidexterity, that leaves 4 rogue levels. When you say 4d6 sneak attack damage are you referring to the damage from both hits?

Keep in mind that his total attack bonus should not be very high. I count +3 for rogue levels, +1 for the ranger level, and -2 to for dual-wielding shortswords. Thats only +2, even with 20 dex and wpn finesse thats only +7 to hit. Your 6th level fighter should have at least +10 and 2 attacks by now.

I've written extensively on the "power" of the bat wings a tiefling can gain. First of all, its a rather costly venture in terms of feats. Secondly, the flight gained is very weak. It limits you to your regular speed (30ft.) and the maneuverability begins at "Poor" I believe. If you look up Flight in the DMG, youll have a good idea of what he can and cannot do, I believe he is about as maneuverable as a Wyvern. Every turn he is in flight he _must_ move, he can't just hover. Go over the flight rules a few times yourself, then explain to him (and the group) about the limitations. Don't let him treat it as if he has a permanent "Fly" spell cast on himself.

While he may be a high-damager in your campaign, he almost assuredly doesn't have the hit points to go for too long. Someone as frightening as your player might draw a lot of attention from the monsters/NPCs, I wouldnt do it in a mean "Im gonna get you" way, but honestly, if he is the most threatening PC, hes gonna get focus-fired.

As far as prcs, keep in mind that they are all optional. Now if you had planned on letting them in your campaign, and you had planned on letting in shadowdancers, its still OK. Like you said, no reason to overly punish the guy, but joining an organization is an unwritten requirement in many prcs. Perhaps they think his visage too otherworldly, so he must purchase/find a hat of disguise, or maybe they have some work for him to do to prove himself first. At any rate, look to 3.5 to clarify how many shadows he can have, and probably the full power of Hide in Plain Sight. It shouldnt be much longer now...

Technik


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## ArcOfCorinth (Jul 10, 2003)

Throw him against some barbarians and rogues. He won't get that sneak attack in and they'll crush him. Hell, a barbarian in an enclosed area will rough him up good. 

Secondly, you need to house rule out his shadow making minions. Its just stupid. That's a problem you've created yourself. I'm not trying to bash you or anything here, just being honest.

How's his Will save? Wouldn't be too surprising for some cleric of a good deity to concentrate his spells on the obviously fiendish beast that's appearing out of nowhere and decimating his allies. A blindness spell would drop the tiefling down to a commoner's level.

If he's hogging the show, then its only fair to hold him back every now and then. Just don't always hold him back and never let a pattern emerge.


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## BiggusGeekus (Jul 10, 2003)

Tell the player he is kicking complete and total buttocks and the rest of the group isn't seeing much action.  Tell the player you don't want to have to do anything stupid like throw in a subplot of evil plant based light-magic wizards to ruin his day.  Tell him it is your fault for allowing the wings in the first place and not understanding what they can do.  Tell hte player you would like a comprimise.

In the next game session you would like to fudge a hit where the player took irreperalble damage to one of his wings.  It can only be healed via a _wish_ or _miracle_ spell.  In the meantime the player can use the wings for _feather fall_ but not flying.  Allow him to glide, he'll fall down as if under _feather fall_ but he'll have the equivalent of 30' "movement".  Make it very, very clear that the player can't use his wings for upward thrust.

After you do that: don't let _wish_ or _miracle_ into your game until the players can cast it themselves.

Hope this helps.


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## Tidus4444 (Jul 10, 2003)

they beat me to it.


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## clark411 (Jul 10, 2003)

Hiding, even in plain sight, is a skill check that requires a.. erm.. is it standard or move equivalent... a "non-free" action.  That means doing it in combat isn't terribly unbalancing as it's taking up precious rounds.  Remaining hidden and unnoticed slows down movement (without -20 or so to the check), so the tiefling rogue ranger shadow dancer will be close to stabbity range enough to make it very dangerous for him on a regular basis.

Dual wielding rogues are hardly a new thing, they balance the massive damage output with the knowledge that if they don't kill whatever they've thoroughly annoyed with Sneak Attacks, it'll pound them.  A tiefling character, with 1 hit die below the group norm (due to ECL), is going to suffer from this even more than a regular ranger rogue.  Also, unless one of those weapons he uses is a defending weapon, he's lowering his defense without a buckler (barring use of feats that restrict twfers to fighting with one hand in exchange for ac).. so he's even more of a pickle if he doesn't auto kill his targets.

Two weapon fighting (erm Ambidex now I suppose) also causes a penalty to hit, something that a ranger can deal with much better than a ranger / rogue... Meaning the guy will be risking low defense in exchange for hitting less but doing more damage, and getting more attention, when he does so.

On the whole, this tiefling ranger / rogue doesn't need that much to keep him in line with the rest of the group powerwise.. Just things that hit hard, and don't insta die from a sneak attack in the surprise round and the possible extra 2-3 in the first round.  On paper, and against average foes, he might be a killing machine, but the first time he encounters serious resistance, and is possibly pasted, the player's mindset will shift in a manner that will keep him from ninja-flip-out-blendering into every combat.

oh, and I'm surprised he invested two feats to get wings.. that couldn't have helped him powerwise (again, more reinforcement for thinking he's a-ok as is.) and secondly, aren't rangers getting Hide in Plain Sight in 3.5?  If he's devoted to the ranger, he may not even want to bother with the Shadow Dancer.  Just a thought.

As for suggestions - not saying constructs and undead, but how about elementals, most things with blindsense and tremorsense, and scent skills.  If this tiefling isn't flying (and fly hiding must be incredibly hard), an earth elemental knows exactly where he is.  If the tiefling is alive and has been on the road, your average magic beasty lion with the scent feats from Savage Species knows exactly where he is within 60 ft.  If he's facing a dragon, or something with concealment, he's boned.


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## heimdall (Jul 10, 2003)

If he doesn't listen to reason and you have to play hard ball... what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

His wings, if he's flashing 'em about, is sure to draw attention. Nothing like having a half-orc or some other "sinister" race with 6 or 7 levels in rogue hunting him as a trophy. Especially if they attack him in town where's not expecting it. Sneak attack with surprise. Toss in a bit of poison or shoot an arrow into him from within 30'. 

His stalker, after the attack, is going to slip away. Set up a diversion to aid the stalker. Stalker stays a persistent part of the adventure until he shapes up. Remember, characters who stand out will draw attention to themselves.


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## Blasphemonkey (Jul 10, 2003)

Kerrwyn said:
			
		

> *
> Hmmm.... Displacement....  Displacer Beasts?  Blink Dogs?  Ooooh, Blink is good too.  Hold Person, Cause Fear, Hold Monster, Dominate Person.
> 
> And remember, he only gets the SA if his opponent is flanked or flat-footed.  And I thought that the Shadowdancer could only have one Shadow at a time. *




Thanks for the help everyone, now some responses from a few:

All the "person" spells won't work, because he's technically not human, an "outsider," but I see what you mean, and Hold Monster will work just as well...most enemies will be able to see he's not quite human.   

I thought that every enemy that the shadow kills also rises as a shadow. That's one of my main concerns.


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Jul 10, 2003)

In a few levels his Tumble skill will let him avoid AoOs.

Make him play a 3.5 ranger instead  That way he either has to take another level of ranger (giving up sneak attack dice) or spend a feat.

PS how the heck is he getting full-round attacks that often? With his low hp and low AC, he should get creamed.


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## Blasphemonkey (Jul 10, 2003)

Privateer said:
			
		

> *Remember he can only get one sneak attack even if he has two attacks -- only one gets the bonus damage.  You may already know this, but it wasn't clear in your first post.
> 
> Have the enemies sneak up on his party, so that the party doesn't get sneak attacks.
> 
> *




Hmmm! I thought that both swords would come into play with a sneak attack...hence 2d6 becomes 4d6. I'll have to check into this. Maybe they'll explain it better in 3.5 also.

He's the only rogue, so nobody else is getting sneak attacks.


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## Skaros (Jul 10, 2003)

As has been mentioned, on the rounds when he isn't hiding, he'll draw a hell of a lot of fire from arhcers and spellcasters when they see a winged demonic looking creature flying towards them.

Further, take a look at his maneuverability rating on those wings.  If I recall correctly, they only have 'average' maneuverability.

Look it up in the DMG, and you'll see how limited his flight is in combat.  He may have taken improved flight a few times to improve this so he can hover, move backwards without using extra movement to reverse direction, etc...but I doubt he spent all of his 2-3 feats on that.

Just make sure he's playing all of the rules and limitations for his abilities properly, and you'll be fine.

Skaros


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## Skaros (Jul 10, 2003)

Blasphemonkey said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Hmmm! I thought that both swords would come into play with a sneak attack...hence 2d6 becomes 4d6. I'll have to check into this. Maybe they'll explain it better in 3.5 also.
> 
> He's the only rogue, so nobody else is getting sneak attacks.   *




You were right to begin with.  You can sneak attack 47 times in a round if you somehow have that many attacks per round and are flanking 

Oh, one more thing...are you converting to 3.5 anytime soon?  His build will certainly gain a setback or two when 3.5 comes into the group.  He'll need 2 ranger levels to get two weapon fighting the cheap way, for one.

Skaros


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## Blasphemonkey (Jul 10, 2003)

(Psi)SeveredHead said:
			
		

> *In a few levels his Tumble skill will let him avoid AoOs.
> 
> Make him play a 3.5 ranger instead  That way he either has to take another level of ranger (giving up sneak attack dice) or spend a feat.
> 
> PS how the heck is he getting full-round attacks that often? With his low hp and low AC, he should get creamed. *





Well, it would be kind of nasty for me to go and tear up his sheet and say, "Play a 3.5 ranger."  

And his AC is 23...not too shabby, at least for 6th level.


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## Blasphemonkey (Jul 10, 2003)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> *For the future: I suppose you've learned your lesson about allowing thiefling rogues with bat wings. *




You got that right, dude...!


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## clark411 (Jul 10, 2003)

How'd he get 23 ac at level 6 while dual wielding weapons and having 2 of his feats devoted to getting wings?  Hm, if you can, stat the bloke out for us.


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## magnas_veritas (Jul 10, 2003)

Blasphemonkey said:
			
		

> *Hmmm! I thought that both swords would come into play with a sneak attack...hence 2d6 becomes 4d6. I'll have to check into this. Maybe they'll explain it better in 3.5 also.*




Well, he's using short swords, right?  So, his damage should look like:

d6+(Str)+(Enh)+2d6/19-20 x2 for the main hand, and
d6+(Str/2)+(Enh)+2d6/19-20 x2 for the off hand

Those are for each successful attack.

Now, as for the shadows...he can have more than one, depending on his Shadowdancer level; unless it's been errata'd and I haven't seen, he can summon an additional one every three Shadowdancer levels (as per the DMG entry).  Note that any shadowspawn that arose wouldn't be under the PC's control, but under his shadow's, and would *not* be the same as his alignment.  So, you could, were you so inclined, have them follow the party and then eat the rest of the PCs when their guard is down.  Not the tiefling, no; his shadow just doesn't like the others...

Or, you can take the easy way out and say that since these shadows of his can't be turned/rebuked/commanded, they can't spawn shadows, either.  That's probably simpler.

Brad


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## Blasphemonkey (Jul 10, 2003)

Tabarnak Smokeblower said:
			
		

> *Shadowdancers can in fact only have 1 shadow at a time, and if that shadow dies, it costs the shadowdancer some experience points (as a familiar, IIRC).
> 
> Also, multiclassing like that, he must have pretty lousy will saves, and his sneak attack isn't optimal since neither the ranger nor the shadowdancer gives sneak attack profession
> 
> ...




He loses XP if the shadow dies? Oooh, is this really true? I hope, I hope!   

Players are all 6th level now. Someone else asked this, so to compare:

Tiefling PC - AC 23, HP 47, Init + 4 (he has 18 dex), Melee + 7, Ranged + 9, Fort + 8, Reflex + 7, Will + 5

Dwarven Fighter PC - AC 15 (he needs some magic armor, he has a shield of arrow deflection but prefers to use his greataxe, so needs both hands), HP 42, Init + 5, Melee + 8/+3, Ranged +7/+3, Fort + 8, Reflex + 5, Will + 3


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## Blasphemonkey (Jul 10, 2003)

Oh yeah, str 14, dex 18, con 14, int 18, wis 14, cha 9...and yes I saw him roll all this.

Feats: Weapon Finesse (short sword), Dodge, Two Weapon Fighting, Ambidexterity, Track, Weapon Focus (short sword), Spring Attack, and Outsider Wings (not sure if that's really a feat or a feature of his race)

Gawd Awmighty!


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## clark411 (Jul 10, 2003)

Spring Attack without Mobility prerequisite? bwah?
Outsider Wings without Fiendish Bloodline prerequisite? bwah?

Your player is skipping feats in his feat chains.

Also, he has 4 (non-virtual) feats at sixth level without being a human?  Unless you have some nifty house rules, he's getting 3 feats (1, 3, 6).


ps
Unless I'm mistaken, this character can't even qualify for Fiendish Bloodline until level 6 (the prerequisite +1 to all base saves).  So his wings are definitely out.  This may, in a way, explain how he's overpowered- as level 6 multiclassed chars with single good saves aren't meant to have wingies.


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## coyote6 (Jul 10, 2003)

Blasphemonkey said:
			
		

> *Players are all 6th level now. Someone else asked this, so to compare:
> 
> Tiefling PC - AC 23, HP 47, Init + 4 (he has 18 dex), Melee + 7, Ranged + 9, Fort + 8, Reflex + 7, Will + 5
> 
> Dwarven Fighter PC - AC 15 (he needs some magic armor, he has a shield of arrow deflection but prefers to use his greataxe, so needs both hands), HP 42, Init + 5, Melee + 8/+3, Ranged +7/+3, Fort + 8, Reflex + 5, Will + 3 *




A 6th level fighter with a +8 melee? That's only a 14 or 15 Str, even assuming no Weapon Focus and no MW or magical weapon (which would be bizarre for a 6th level FR character). Fewer hp -- with 6d10 and a dwarf's Con bonus -- than the the 3d10+3d6 rogue?

Wow. I think the problem may be not so much that the tiefling is overpowered as the others being underpowered, if this guy's representative.  

What does the dwarf's stats look like?

Is the tiefling Rog3/Rgr3?


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## Kerrwyn (Jul 10, 2003)

Yah, there's no way he's got that many feats.  One level ranger+Four or Five levels of rogue= TWF, Ambi, Track, 1 feat(1st level), 2 feats (leveling).  He's got three virtuals and 3 regular.  By all means, he's skipped some feats.  Outsider wings has a prereq of Fiendish Bloodline, Spring Attack has BAB +4 and Dodge, Mobility and Expertise.


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Jul 10, 2003)

Outsider Wings are a feat from Races of Faerun with some pre-requisites.

As a DM, I've made mistakes before, but I don't let players use feats from supplements if I'm not sure what the feat does. I would, at the least, read the feat first.

I think your player has either made several mistakes, or he's cheating.

PS this is a good reason why you should point buy  The players may whine but they will be happier in the end.


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## coyote6 (Jul 10, 2003)

Kerrwyn said:
			
		

> *Outsider wings has a prereq of Fiendish Bloodline, Spring Attack has BAB +4 and Dodge, Mobility and Expertise. *




FWIW, Spring Attack doesn't require Expertise. You're probably thinking of Whirlwind Attack, which has Spring Attack & Expertise as prereqs.

But the tiefling is definitely short a couple of prereqs -- Fiendish Bloodline and Mobility -- and already over by two feats. So he's effectively over by four feats. Unless you've tossed some prereqs...


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## Balgus (Jul 10, 2003)

> (Psi)SeveredHead:
> Outsider Wings are a feat from Races of Faerun with some pre-requisites.
> 
> Clark:Also, he has 4 (non-virtual) feats at sixth level without being a human? Unless you have some nifty house rules, he's getting 3 feats (1, 3, 6).



 I don't know about the batwing feat, but he may just be using the Tiefling template from Monster of Faerun. It says that a Tiefling has a 75% chance of having batwings. If he did choose this route, then you can tell him that you don't like it and therefore nix it. 

Plus, he is only supposed to have 2 character feats, level 1,3.  Because Tiefling is EL+1.

This should solve a lot of problems.


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## Balgus (Jul 10, 2003)

Ooops- I was reading the "half-fiend" template at the end of the MM.


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Jul 10, 2003)

If a tiefling has bat wings, it doesn't mean they are functional


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## Kerrwyn (Jul 10, 2003)

coyote6 said:
			
		

> *
> 
> FWIW, Spring Attack doesn't require Expertise. You're probably thinking of Whirlwind Attack, which has Spring Attack & Expertise as prereqs.
> 
> But the tiefling is definitely short a couple of prereqs -- Fiendish Bloodline and Mobility -- and already over by two feats. So he's effectively over by four feats. Unless you've tossed some prereqs... *



Yeah.  I posted that and then went and looked it up, becasue something sounded wrong.  Oh, well. We all make mistakes.


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## Balgus (Jul 10, 2003)

What I would do is to give the opther players the chance to increase their abilities.  Say magical weapons, or magic enhancers (like a new spellbook).

That way, the Tiefling keeps his char- untouched, and the others areback in the party contributing again. You can now go back to DMing because since they all are buffed up, you can throw in stronger NPCs for themt o fight- and more monsters.

Otherwise, send in a lot of NPCs.  This way, he doesn't attack everything that comes his way. And if he does, send the guards after him for killing innocents or whatever you can think of.

And this should give them a couple sneak attacks to sofetn him up.

And he is rollin very well to have 47 hp at lvl 5.  That is a 7 per level (47/5 lvl = 9 -2 con = 7) from a d6 rogue and a d10 ranger? Now i am baffled.  He should have a max of 44 hp (10 rngr+24 (4*6 rog) +10 (2*5) con)


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## Angcuru (Jul 10, 2003)

umm...if he's only lvl 6, how can he have sneak attack damage 4d6, considering that he could only have 4 levels in rogue max, what with level in ranger and the ECL of Tielfing?     Shortsword of Subtlety?


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## Fiendish Dire Weasel (Jul 10, 2003)

Ahhh, it looks like the problem here is the character is broken I'm sorry to say.

If the group is 6th level he should only have 5 character levels as Tiefling is ECL+1.

A 5th (even 6th) level Rogue/Ranger with Con14 having 47hp seems stange that is almost max HP (52 would be max possible).

He has 5 non-virtual feats while only having 2 feat choices available at 5th level (3 at 6th)

Two of the feats, Outsider Wings and Spring Attack are missing prerequisites.

Also, if he has 23ac and the Fighter next to him only 15 the Tiefling has to have a lot more/better magic items.

I'm all for people doing whatever they want in the game but if this character is out of control in your game it looks like it is because either you let him get that way (though poorly thought out house rules or not paying attention to what he was doing) or the guy is cheating somthing fierce. The rules out of the books aren't responsable for the problem. Don't take this as some kind of attack, I'm not trying to bash you or anything. I have seen similar things occur when a new powergamer (or the worst kind of powergamer: the kind who doesn't actually know or follow the rules) joins a group and isn't watched carefully. The best advice I can give for this type of thing is never allow anyone to take any race/class/feat/ability until you read it and are comfortable with it. No matter how many "Awww, c'mon"'s they give you 

My best advice for dealing with the Tiefling would have him encounter a nice 8th level 1/2 Orc Barbarian or somthing else with 22+ Str with a greataxe and the Knockdown feat from Sword & Fist and remove the Tiefling from the game.


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## takyris (Jul 10, 2003)

Um, if he's only 6th level, how the heck can he be a Shadowdancer at all?  You can't qualify for Shadowdancer unless you have 10 ranks in Hide, which means that he'd have to be at least Ranger1/Rogue6 -- and he can't be anything better than Ranger1/Rogue4 and be a Shadowdancer, yah?

So, one problem at a time.

He's probably using his wings in ways that his maneuverability class didn't intend, like everyone else already said.  Make him produce a character sheet.  Look at what he's got.  Look and make sure that he actually qualifies for all his stuff.

Make sure that enemies aren't stupid.  If he's flying, he has no way to hide, and unless he burned a lot of feats, he can't hover, so the best he can do is fly around invisibly and then get ONE sneak attack, since he has to keep moving.

Correct me if I'm wrong, and it's very very possible that I am, but I may have a really easy way to limit his effectiveness.

Tiefling.  Outsider, yes?  Now, it may have been hashed out in the rules, and somebody could tell me I'm full of it, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that as an outsider, a Tiefling character was:

ECL+1
Dex +2, Int+2, Cha-2
Fire, Cold, Electricity Resistance 5
+2 Bonus to Hide, Bluff
Darkness 1/day
Unaffected by "Person" spells (Charm person, hold person)
*Susceptible to being completely and totally nerfed in all his powergaming goodness by single "Protection from Evil", which stops him from making melee attacks against anyone so protected unless they attack him first.*

Just like a 20th-level monk can be stopped by Protection from Evil (although he gets to use his SR to try and overcome it), our Tiefling flyboy can't make attacks on any wizard, sorcerer, paladin, or bard smart enough to cast that first-level humdinger on him- or herself.

Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd say that once the bad guy clerics see the Tiefling dude coming at them with his wings and stuff, their first move is going to be to cast Protection from (insert alignment here).  After that, they'll start casting spells with Will saves.  His Will saves most likely stink.  They will keep doing this while their buddies make mincemeat out of him.

Note: Again, I could be wrong.  Check with the rules lawyers to be sure.


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## clark411 (Jul 10, 2003)

"Susceptible to being completely and totally nerfed in all his powergaming goodness by single "Protection from Evil", which stops him from making melee attacks against anyone so protected unless they attack him first."

Well, your average, run of the mill tiefling isn't hedged out by PoE or the like unless it's an outsider that's been called or summoned into combat, and even then it's only natural attacks.. so a summoned monk tiefling would have a hard time breaking the will save to actually hit a PoE'd opponent, but otherwise .. that's really non-issue.

Also, bat wings don't really mean Will Saves.. rogues generally do however... although dependant on the DM that can be a little to metagamey, or a totally valid tactic.  What they do mean is "maneuverability that will negate the presense of our fighters between them and us sniveling wussy boy casters." =)


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Jul 10, 2003)

Could we get his entire character sheet listing ... along with the greataxe-wielding dwarf's sheet?

I don't see how a 7th-level fighter has an AC of only 15... Full plate alone gives you +8 to AC right there.


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## rounser (Jul 10, 2003)

> our Tiefling flyboy



He's pretty fly for a fell guy.


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## Camarath (Jul 10, 2003)

Blasphemonkey said:
			
		

> *Oh yeah, str 14, dex 18, con 14, int 18, wis 14, cha 9...and yes I saw him roll all this.
> 
> Feats: Weapon Finesse (short sword), Dodge, Two Weapon Fighting, Ambidexterity, Track, Weapon Focus (short sword), Spring Attack, and Outsider Wings (not sure if that's really a feat or a feature of his race)
> 
> Gawd Awmighty!    *




You need Fiendish Bloodline which require a base +1 to all saves (min lv 3 feat for this character) to take Outsider Wings (min lv 6 for this character). This character should have only one other non-bonus/virtual feat. I assume the character is ECL 7 six from class levels and one from the LA +1 of the telfling. If he is only character lv 5 he can not have taken the feat. Also as a multiclassed character the only was he could take Outsider Wings at 6th lv is a level 3/ level 3 split (with one class strait till 3rd to pick up Fiendish Bloodline) other wise he would have to wait till level 9. The feat gives average maneuverability so you can not hover and Spring Attack does not work when flying. IMO either this character was very badly built or your player is trying to cheat. I as a principle do not players use things in supplements I do not have or am not familiar with. Also how is he gettting his sneak attack all the time? He should get it on each attack but only if flanking or if his opponent is denied his dex bonus.


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## Camarath (Jul 10, 2003)

If this is indead an intentional decption I suggest you talk to the player and consider if you want to keep playing with him. The character needs to have a personal encounter with a Half-Celestial Half-Elemental (fire) Half-Golem (clay failed save) Troll [CR 11] of Divine DM Retribution.


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## takyris (Jul 10, 2003)

clark411 said:
			
		

> Well, your average, run of the mill tiefling isn't hedged out by PoE or the like unless it's an outsider that's been called or summoned into combat, and even then it's only natural attacks.. so a summoned monk tiefling would have a hard time breaking the will save to actually hit a PoE'd opponent, but otherwise .. that's really non-issue.




Hm.  Interesting.  As I said, I wasn't sure -- but I did look at the monk description, where it says, "At 20th level, the monk is considered an outsider.  Blah blah blah no charm person, blah blah blah DR20/+1.  Note that as an outsider, he is susceptible to blocking effects like Protection from Law."

Please note that I have the old pre-errata'd PHB, so if this has been sussed out already, s'all good.  But my assumption has been that if the monk became vulnerable to PfromE just because he hit level 20 and became "considered an outsider", the Tiefling would get it for his bloodline.  And as a balance factor (no Charm Person, Hold Person, etc.), it made sense to me.  As I said, however -- the Sage & Co. could have said differently.  Anyone got a link for me?

As a side note, I believe that it's not just natural attacks but all melee attacks.  Spellcasting is fine, ranged weapons are fine, but attacking with a greatsword is not.  Again, I could be wrong, but I'm more sure about that than I am about the "All non-Good outsiders are susceptible to PfromE because of the line in the Monk description."



> Also, bat wings don't really mean Will Saves.. rogues generally do however...




Not sure if I was unclear there, but yeah -- was not trying to allude to the wings, but to the fact that our winged wonder, as a Rogue4/Ranger1, has a Will save of +1 base, possibly with a bit from Wisdom.  Not huge, and very easy to freeze with any spell that has a "monster" descriptor instead of a "person" descriptor.



> can be a little to metagamey, or a totally valid tactic.




Well, not really.  It's not metagamey for a person who grew up in a D&D world to see a dude with a greatsword and heavy armor and think, "Bet I could charm him more easily than I could petrify him."  Or, by the same token, to see a lightly armored dude fighting with light weaponry and quick, cunning strikes and think, "I bet he'd probably just scuttle out of the way of any fireballs I tossed in his direction."  People who grow up in a D&D world know how their D&D world works.  

Metagamey would be, "Well, if he's a CR equal to our level, that means that he has evasion, but not uncanny dodge against flanking, and our DM wouldn't send a rogue who was more powerful than us against us without letting us learn more about him first so we could be ready.  Let's just attack.  We're probably fine."

But yeah, basically, what you said. 

EDIT: Just hunted through the FAQ and found a strongly worded line that put me squarely in the wrong.  Seems stupid to me given the monk line, but it appears that the MONK line is the wrong one, or at least, should be rephrased to indicate that outsiderness is not an automatic "Vulnerable to Protection from" card.


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## Blasphemonkey (Jul 10, 2003)

Angcuru said:
			
		

> *umm...if he's only lvl 6, how can he have sneak attack damage 4d6, considering that he could only have 4 levels in rogue max, what with level in ranger and the ECL of Tielfing?     Shortsword of Subtlety? *




His sneak attack is really 2d6, but he is dual wielding short swords, so the other 2d6 comes from his normal "un-sneak attack" damage.


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## Blasphemonkey (Jul 10, 2003)

Fiendish Dire Weasel said:
			
		

> *Ahhh, it looks like the problem here is the character is broken I'm sorry to say.
> 
> If the group is 6th level he should only have 5 character levels as Tiefling is ECL+1.*




Correct there. He's a level 1 ranger, level 3 rogue, 5 character levels, yet ECL = 6.



> *
> A 5th (even 6th) level Rogue/Ranger with Con14 having 47hp seems stange that is almost max HP (52 would be max possible).*




He is rolling very well indeed.



> *
> He has 5 non-virtual feats while only having 2 feat choices available at 5th level (3 at 6th)
> 
> Two of the feats, Outsider Wings and Spring Attack are missing prerequisites.
> *




I've seen the other notes on this, and thanks so much to you and everyone else for pointing this out. I'm going to iron this thing out with him next game!  



> *
> Also, if he has 23ac and the Fighter next to him only 15 the Tiefling has to have a lot more/better magic items.*




He does have elven chain and some other nice items. I had them for sale in a city they ventured to, and didn't think they'd have enough money to buy that for awhile. Needless to say, he coerced the entire adventuring party to pool up their money to get the elven chain for him, saying that it was for the good of the group, since he was going to be sneaking ahead as rogue, he'd need the protection. I have to agree with him that he would, but while I'm surprised the group gave up practically all their GP for him, I had to let them do it, because...well, it's their money.




> *
> I'm all for people doing whatever they want in the game but if this character is out of control in your game it looks like it is because either you let him get that way (though poorly thought out house rules or not paying attention to what he was doing) or the guy is cheating somthing fierce. The rules out of the books aren't responsable for the problem. Don't take this as some kind of attack, I'm not trying to bash you or anything. I have seen similar things occur when a new powergamer (or the worst kind of powergamer: the kind who doesn't actually know or follow the rules) joins a group and isn't watched carefully. The best advice I can give for this type of thing is never allow anyone to take any race/class/feat/ability until you read it and are comfortable with it. No matter how many "Awww, c'mon"'s they give you *




Oh no, I don't take it wrong at all, I appreciate you and the others pointing it out to me, thanks!    This player is a very likeable and nice guy, and seems very knowledgable about the rules. Maybe he just wants to win so bad that he, ahem...  "overlooks" some things, or maybe he did just make a few honest errors. But this really helps a lot, thanks again.  



> *
> My best advice for dealing with the Tiefling would have him encounter a nice 8th level 1/2 Orc Barbarian or somthing else with 22+ Str with a greataxe and the Knockdown feat from Sword & Fist and remove the Tiefling from the game.  *




Hehe, very evil idea...I won't go that far. But if this isn't salvaged, let me just say I might decide not to fudge any die rolls in his favor when he's down to 2 HP. I'll just...ahem..."overlook" it.


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## Jens (Jul 10, 2003)

As others have said, things may look very different if you simply make the character follow the rules. Just checking and correcting the feats (prerequisites and number) and making sure the flying rules are followed could work wonders.

If he has Poor maneuverability, he can't hover and can only turn very slowly, meaning that he probably won't be able to attack every round while flying. Also, he has to move every round so will never be able to make full attacks so no fighting with two weapons. (it's in the DMG, look up maneuverability) It really shouldn't be very useful in combat.

I look forward to seeing what the character looks like when you've made it legal.


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## nsruf (Jul 10, 2003)

Blasphemonkey said:
			
		

> *Correct there. He's a level 1 ranger, level 3 rogue, 5 character levels, yet ECL = 6.*




If this isn't a typo, the character is actually wrong on another account (although this mistake weakens him): Tieflings are 1 HD monsters and thus level like characters with no monster HD, i.e. with 1 level ranger and 3 levels rogue he has an ECL of 5, not 6.

Just to add to the confusion...


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## PaulKemp (Jul 10, 2003)

Blasphemonkey said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Correct there. He's a level 1 ranger, level 3 rogue, 5 character levels, yet ECL = 6.
> 
> ...




I don't think he's rolling well; he's not rolling at all.  It's not possible (unless you have a house rule) for a 3.0 Ranger 1/Rogue 3 with a 14 Con to have 47 hit points.  Hell, it's impossible for a 3.0 Ranger 1/Rogue 4 with a 14 Con to have 47 hit points (without the Toughness feat, which did not appear in his list of feats).  

A 14 Con grants +2 to hp per die.  Thus, even assuming our friend rolled max hit points per level, and assuming the higher class, he has the following:  10+6+6+6+6 = 34 for his classes, modified by +10 (+2 for con multiplied by 5 class levels) for a total of 44.  How does this guy have 47 hps?


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## Camarath (Jul 10, 2003)

Blasphemonkey said:
			
		

> *Correct there. He's a level 1 ranger, level 3 rogue, 5 character levels, yet ECL = 6.*




It is impossible for a charater of that level to have legitimately taken Outsider Wings or even Fiendish Bloodline (unless he went strait rouge to 3rd level) by that point. When he gets his 6th level feat he can take Fiendish Bloodline and then at 9th he can take Outsider Wings.


I did he  try to take one HD outsider for the +2 to his saves and so he could claim "feindish bloodline". What level did this character start at and did you over see it's construction? This character is broken almost beyond repair. He is going to lose his wings there is no way around that (unless you house rule it). At this point he only should have two feats (plus his virtual ranger feats).


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## Miquiztli (Jul 10, 2003)

I believe that a tiefling is considered a native outsider and not a true outsider. Thus he would be affected by hold person spells and such.


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## Darklone (Jul 10, 2003)

Boah, this whole thread reminds me of a bard2/rog3 elven minmax girl with Spiked Chain and Expert Tactician/QttE (without meeting the prerequ Dex 19 at the level when she took the feat) who was convinced that she could sing her Bards song improved by _harmony_ (Song&Silence) as well as tumble 20ft and sneak attack some undeads ... 
During a surprise round.

She left the PBeM group at once after we politely explained some rule errors.

Edit: Splatbook names.... aren't they all the same?


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Jul 10, 2003)

Mr. Monkey, do you want us to totally re-write this character? It looks like he did cheat on hit points, and miscalculated base saves, etc.


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## Remathilis (Jul 10, 2003)

Assuming I didn't miss new math class and 1+3 doesn't = 5, I'll assume typo and thus think 1 lvl ranger, 4th lvl rogue

Tiefling Rng1/Rog4/Level Adjustment +1, ECL 6. 

HD: 1d10+ 4d6 + 10 (Av. 34 hp)*

Skill Points: 4 + Int, at 1st, 8+ int (x4) (Total: 44)*

Feats: 3 bonus (Ambi, TWF, Track, all 1st lvl rgr) + 3 Picked. (1st: Wpn Finesse*, 3rd: Dodge, for example)

Base Attk: +4 (+2 melee, +4 Missile/Finesse)

Fort: +3 + 2 (Con)
Ref: +4 + 4 (Dex)
Will +1 +3 (Will)

Class Abilities: Favored Enemy +1, Sneak Attack +2d6, Uncanny Dodge (Dex to AC), Evasion

Racial Traits: 60' Darkvision, Cold/Fire/Electric Resist 5, Darkness 1/day (as sorc), +2 Bluff/Hide, Native Outsider (Not affected by spells that affect humanoids, affected by extraplanar targeting spells, can be raised/res'ed)

Barring Magical Gear, his stats SHOULD look something like this. If it really IS rgr1/rog3, subtract 6 hps, 12 Skill Points, and +1 to Base Attack and all Saves. 

* I also assumed he went ranger 1st

(EDIT: Fixed "New Math" Hit Points)


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## nsruf (Jul 10, 2003)

Remathilis said:
			
		

> *Assuming I didn't miss new math class and 1+3 doesn't = 5, I'll assume typo and thus think 1 lvl ranger, 4th lvl rogue *




Looks like you got your new math down allright, or how does +2 Con modifier times 5 levels equal +20 to hp?


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## mmu1 (Jul 10, 2003)

Blasphemonkey said:
			
		

> *
> Players are all 6th level now. Someone else asked this, so to compare:
> 
> Tiefling PC - AC 23, HP 47, Init + 4 (he has 18 dex), Melee + 7, Ranged + 9, Fort + 8, Reflex + 7, Will + 5
> ...




I'm assuming he's a Ranger 1 / Rogue 3 / Shadowdancer 1?

With these stats: str 14, dex 18, con 14, int 18, wis 14, cha 9


Let's sum up everything that's wrong with this character:

1. More HP than he could have if he rolled max for all levels (44 vs. 47)

2. Isn't eligible for the Shadowdancer PrC.

3. THREE feats to many.

4. At least one feat he doesn't seem to meet the prerequisites for.

5. Really funky saves - +8 Fort, +7 Ref and +5 Will - so, ability modifiers aside, +6 Fort, +3 Ref and +3 Will  which doesn't look quite right. They should be +3 Fort, +5 Ref, and +1 Will, for total saves of +5 Fort, +9 Ref and + 3 Will - even if he had a Ring of Protection of some kind, his saves couldn't be what you wrote, they don't add up.

6. Probably isn't using his wings correctly - he has to keep moving, which should prevent him from constantly getting two attacks per round, and the limits on maneuverability and climb rates should make it very difficult for him to flank to begin with.

7. Can't actually make any more shadows.

If this guy knows the rules, it isn't showing... It looks more like he's completely taking advantage of your good will, and ignoring the rules when it's convenient to boost his character.


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## SimonMoon5 (Jul 10, 2003)

Also, his AC seems fishy. AC 23?

He's obviously got...

10 base
4    dex 18
5    from the elven chain that was mentioned
-----

19 total

Unless that chain mail is +4, I don't see how he's got a 23 AC.

Yeah, he occasionally will get to add +1 to his AC from dodge, but that's still only 20 and only sometimes.


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## fett527 (Jul 10, 2003)

Besides the fact he shouldn't have spring attack to begin with, I hope you haven't been letting him use it while flying.  He would need Fly-by-Attack to do that.


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## e3_Jeb (Jul 10, 2003)

I've been under the impression that he was 2 levels of ranger and 3 levels of rogue... That way he'd barely be able to get those HP...


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## Skaros (Jul 10, 2003)

fett527 said:
			
		

> *Besides the fact he shouldn't have spring attack to begin with, I hope you haven't been letting him use it while flying.  He would need Fly-by-Attack to do that. *




And you suffer attacks of opportunity on fly by attacks


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## mmu1 (Jul 10, 2003)

e3_Jeb said:
			
		

> *I've been under the impression that he was 2 levels of ranger and 3 levels of rogue... That way he'd barely be able to get those HP... *




Doh... You're probably right, although the class breakdown I saw was Ranger 1 / Rogue 3, and I assumed he had a Shadowdancer level left out, when in fact he seems not to have taken it yet.

Which makes his HP rolls something like 1/1000, given the best case scenario... Hardly impossible, but enough to make a guy suspicious given everything else going on.


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## Dr. Zoom (Jul 10, 2003)

Shadowdancers cannot summon a shadow until they are 3rd level.  How is this 1st level Shadowdancer doing that?

The Shadowdancer has a prerequisite of 10 ranks in Hide.  That's 10 ranks, not 10 for the total Hide bonus.  His max rank in Hide is 8.  He simply cannot be a Shadowdancer yet.


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## sithramir (Jul 10, 2003)

This character with all the feats and skills and added hps and "forgetting" of feat chains is around ECL of 10. Since your other characters are 6th level of course he's over powerful.


Note that his sneak is only +2d6 and ONLY works on surprise round or if someone is flanked. Therefore while flying with poor manuevarability he would only be able to get 1 sneak attack at max (has to keep moving), WOULD incur an AoO (needs fly by attack not spring and still incurs AoO anyways), and cannot move and get full round attacks. He can never get a sneak on surprise while flying pretty much with poor manuevering. He can never get his full round attack of both swords while moving or with spring attack (which he can't have anyways). 

His feats are just insanely wrong. Is he even taking the -2/-2 from TWF feats? His AC is wrong. In fact I don't believe this character even has one thing right. I bet he always wins initiative with his +10 super abilities too eh?


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## Blasphemonkey (Jul 10, 2003)

*D'oh!*

Okay, some clarification here...sorry to get everyone in such a confusion over this, but I messed one thing up here (and found another error he made), plus two things which some people assumed. First off, my mistake:

He is really a Rogue 3, Ranger 1, Fighter 2 (which I have to nix one level of fighter, because that makes his "effective level" 7, higher than everyone else's. Big problemo there). El fixo immediamente!

Now the two comments that went off course from some of you. He is not yet a Shadowdancer, but that is coming. The only reason I mentioned it in my first post is because I know it'll only get more unbalanced once he takes that PrC (assuming I don't fix it, which of course I will).

The other comment: He's been using flight sparingly. Hasn't used spring attack while flying, or trying to hover, any of that stuff. So at least he is playing that true to form.

Since I am such a nice guy, I'll sit down and tell him, "Look, keep the bat wings, since I know you love `em. But all this other stuff has to be fixed now."

Oh yeah, and his init is only +4. Can you imagine? Only +4! Hehe, I'm being funny now...it does seem out of place though, eh? Think it'd be +12 or something...

Some of you asked for the dwarven warrior's stats and here they are:

Init +1, str 14, dex 13, con 16, int 12, wis 12, char 6. AC 15, HP 42. Fort +8, Reflex +5, Will +3.

Attack: Melee +8/+3, Ranged +7/+2, using normal great axe and normal shortbow. Wearing Scale Mail, and has a Large wooden shield of arrow defection, yet doesn't use it because of the great axe.

Fighter Feats: simple weapon, martial weapon, shield prof., armor prof., Reg Feats: power attack, cleave, weapon focus (great axe), weapon specialization (great axe), lightning reflexes. He has two new feats that he hasn't yet decided on, but will be doing so this weekend.

If anyone wants to totally re-do the Tiefling Rogue/Ranger/Fighter, as they mentioned, feel free, but I'm actually more interesting in "un-doing" it to make it the right way.

Thanks again, everyone! The monkey is most grateful.


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## e3_Jeb (Jul 10, 2003)

I guess the major difference between the Rogue/Tiefling and the fighter (Crazy feats and unbalancing magic items aside) is that one player's dice were touched by the very gods... Anyways... It seems like it'd be fun to work with these fine people in making your players generally more happy... I hope I'm not the only one who thinks this...


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jul 10, 2003)

Note that the massive disparity in stats (before you even consider the disparity between items -- should have bought the dwarf full plate before buying the rogue elven chain) is one of the reasons the fighter seems so weak.  He's roughly a 25-point equivalent character, compared to the thiefling, who is ... well, whatever 2 18's plus the rest of his stats work out to.

Dangers of rolling stats.


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## e3_Jeb (Jul 10, 2003)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> Dangers of rolling stats. [/B]




But _I_ wouldn't have it any other way...  (That's a discussion for a completely different thread)


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Jul 10, 2003)

Make him re-roll the stats, or better yet use point-buy, so you never need to accuse someone of cheating. I really think he was cheating, based on his high hit point rolls, etc.


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## Skaros (Jul 10, 2003)

Actually, aside from the extra level of fighter and the high stats, his character build isn't terribly fantastic.

The bat wings are great for flavor, and sometimes help him get past obastacles, but don't do jack for him in combat.  I happen to love that feat for flavor, but with another feat as a prereq...2 feats is a steep price for avg maneuverability and bat wings that scream to your enemies "shoot me now!  I'm a fiend!".

Shadowdancer isn't unbalancing once he gets there unless you allow him to somehow aquire an army of shadows   I'd be interested to see how he interacts with the first paladin led party he runs into anyway!

As was pointed out, the guy's obviously going to lord it over the dwarven fighter....even if they had exactly the same race, class, and feat selection, thanks to very favorable stats.

Sounds like you have things figured out....just fix the few discrepencies, decide whether the disparity in stats is really such a terrible thing in your group, and get on with the adventuring!

Skaros


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## Enkhidu (Jul 10, 2003)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> *Note that the massive disparity in stats (before you even consider the disparity between items -- should have bought the dwarf full plate before buying the rogue elven chain) is one of the reasons the fighter seems so weak.  He's roughly a 25-point equivalent character, compared to the thiefling, who is ... well, whatever 2 18's plus the rest of his stats work out to.
> 
> Dangers of rolling stats. *




Ahem...

Most players with a handle on 3e realize that high stats are more desirable than low stats from a mechanics standpoint. In fact, some ECL +X races have, as their only mechanical difference from ECL 0 races, a net bonus in stats. Which brings me to the tangential question, are high stats worth an ECL modifier?

I seem to remember one poster on the boards (and for some reason I keep thinking its Piratecat, though I'm fuzzy on that one) saying yes to that statement for his higher level campaign. IIRC, he decided to add new PCs to his campaign by asking for a character's stats first (arrived at by whatever means the player felt right), and then assigning a level in relation to the rest of the group based on those stats. Then the rest of the character could be built.

Or, to sum up, what Olgar said...


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## LuYangShih (Jul 10, 2003)

1.  Blasphemonkey already stated this character is simply rolling very well on his HP rolls.  Hardly shocking, people are sometimes just on a lucky streak.

2.  The player does not seem to be deliberately abusing the rules, he simply seems unclear on a few prerequisites for some of his feats.

3.  He is so much better than the Dwarven Fighter because he convinced the party to shell out gold to get him better equipment and rolled higher on ability scores.  That is so strange, isn't it?  Imagine, the party giving in to the smooth talking Rogue instead of helping out the 6 Charisma Dwarf.  That would have never happened if they had been roleplaying!   

4.  The character is hardly a munchkin build.  It does not even come close, in fact.  He rolled high statistics, well on hitpoints, and convinced the rest of the party to fund the bill for his equipment.  Of course he is going to be better.  That is just the way the ball rolls.  

5.  Do not take away his fighter level.  Doing so will anger the player.  Simply tell him you made a mistake calcuating the ECL and until the rest of the party catches up he will have to wait before he gains more experience.  In that case you are not taking anything directly away from him, and he is more likely to accept it.

6.  Do not "fix" the Shadowdancer class.  It is not broken, and Hide In Plain Sight is a fun ability that is not as overpowered as you seem to think.  If he takes a round to hide, he cannot Sneak Attack that round, so it balances itself out.  He could do the same thing with Bluff, so I really do not see the problem here.


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## Squire James (Jul 10, 2003)

Suggested alterations to character:

The character has 1 too many levels.  This can be fixed by letting the player decide which level to give up, or by simply raising the XP needed for the next level to its proper value (ie:  everyone else levels up for the 2nd time at his next level-up).

Fix the feats.  Figure out the virtual feats and write them down.  Figure out the number of fighter (2 if he kept 2 fighter levels) and general feats (3 if he gets to keep all 6 character levels).  To try to follow his list as much as possible, his feat choices should be something like, assuming no level reductions:  (fighter) Weapon Finesse, Dodge, (general) Fiendish Bloodline, Outsider Wings, Mobility.  He'll prefer Mobility to Spring Attack anyway!  He may be eligible for Fly-by Attack at level 9, but by then it's no big deal.

As for future Shadowdancer levels, it is not unreasonable at all to rule that Shadowdancer shadows are unusual in 2 ways:  they are loyal to the Shadowdancer, and they don't spawn more shadows.  And as others have noted, the "Hide in Plain Sight" ability always has some sort of environmental limitation that are easy for DM's to forget.  In the Shadowdancer's case, it must be an area with shadows.  The terrain of best advantage for the tiefling is obviously indoor/underground with high ceilings, but not all adventuring happens in such settings!  For instance, there are no shadows in the air outside, even at night.  Finally, don't confuse shadows with darkness... you can't HAVE shadows without a light source!


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## Spatula (Jul 10, 2003)

*Re: D'oh!*



			
				Blasphemonkey said:
			
		

> *Attack: Melee +8/+3, Ranged +7/+2, using normal great axe and normal shortbow. Wearing Scale Mail, and has a Large wooden shield of arrow defection, yet doesn't use it because of the great axe.*



Why is a 6th level melee fighter still wearing scale mail??  That's first level equipment.  The dwarf's 1st priority should be getting himself some better armor.







> *If anyone wants to totally re-do the Tiefling Rogue/Ranger/Fighter, as they mentioned, feel free, but I'm actually more interesting in "un-doing" it to make it the right way.*



A) Knock him down to the correct level.  B) Make sure he has the proper # feats for his new level (1st level, 3rd level, 1st fighter = 3 total, 1 of which must be a fighter feat).  C) Make sure he has the proper prerequisites for *all* of his feats.  D) Tell the other players to think twice before handing their money over to the silver-tongued devil-spawn with the bat wings. 

Consider making his wings non-functional (perhaps justifying it in-game with a serious wound to them) until he's able to legitimately purchase the feat - which should be his next level from the sound of things.

And if I were you, I'd watch this player like a hawk for now on.  Either he's a cheater, or his grasp of the rules is very, very poor (and conveniently always in his favor).


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## Camarath (Jul 11, 2003)

sithramir said:
			
		

> *Therefore while flying with poor manuevarability*




As I have stated the maneuverability is average.


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## babomb (Jul 11, 2003)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> *Note that the massive disparity in stats (before you even consider the disparity between items -- should have bought the dwarf full plate before buying the rogue elven chain) is one of the reasons the fighter seems so weak.  He's roughly a 25-point equivalent character, compared to the thiefling, who is ... well, whatever 2 18's plus the rest of his stats work out to.
> 
> Dangers of rolling stats. *




Actually, he rolled two *16s*, which is somewhat more inline (or maybe only one, since he could have raised one of them at 4th level). A tiefling gets +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Cha. This, along with a few other benefits, is supposed to put him behind a level. In this case, that rule was overlooked or misunderstood.


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## Camarath (Jul 11, 2003)

Character Tiefling lv 3 Rogue/ lv 1 Ranger/ lv 1 Fighter (total character lv 5) ECL +6
Abilities Str 14 (+2) Dex 18 (+4) Con 14 (+2) Int 18 (+4) Wis 14 (+2) Cha 9 (-1)
HD: 3d6 +2d10 +10 (average 32)
BAB +4 ( total attack with Dex +8) Attacks (one weapon) +8 (dual wielding) +6/+6 
F (base +7) +9
R (base +3) +7
W (base +1) +3
Skills: 72 Rogue, 8 Ranger, 6 Fighter
Feats: Normal: Dodge (can replace with any feat the character could have taken at lv 1), Fiendish Bloodline (Protection from Good 3/d, Bane 1/d catser lv = character lv)
           Bonus: Weapon Finesse (can replace with any feat the other bonus fighter feat the character qualifies for), Track
           Virtual: Ambidexterity, Two Weapon Fighting
Class Features: Sneak Attack +2d6, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge(dex to ac), Favored Emeny +1
Racial Features: Outsider (native); Cold, Fire, and Electricity Resistance 5; +2 racial bonus to Bluff and Hide; Darkvision 60ft; Darkness 1/d catser lv = character lv; 
Damage: Short Sword 1d6+2 off-hand 1d6+1 (if flanking or opponent denied Dex +2d6)

The character can not take Outside Wings till his base Will save becomes +2. To take the feat at class level 6 the character would need to multiclass into a class with a Good Will save. If he does not the character will need to wait at least till level 9 to take the Outside Wings feat.

I built the character assuming straight rouge progression till 3rd level so the character could take the Fiendish Bloodline feat. Because of the level progression, the max rogue class skill rank is 6. Then the fighter and ranger levels are taken, in any order.  The second class has a max skill rank of 7. The third class has a max skill rank of 8.

If I have made any errors (preferably mechanical ones) would you guys please point them out to me.

_Edited so the Spelling and Grammar Nazis don't take me away._


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## CyberSpyder (Jul 11, 2003)

Squire James said:
			
		

> *Finally, don't confuse shadows with darkness... you can't HAVE shadows without a light source! *




Actually, you could argue that darkness is simply the shadow cast by the earth being between you and the sun...


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## LuYangShih (Jul 11, 2003)

Camarath said:
			
		

> *
> 
> If I have made any errors would you guys please point them out to me. *




Very well.  It is *ROGUE*, not ro*uge*.


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## takyris (Jul 11, 2003)

Dude, Yu, I was gonna say the same thing... 

Not to mention straight, not strait, and a few run-on sentences.

The stats looked fine to me, though.  But mainly I was freaking out over the spelling.

-Tacky the Grammar Nazi.


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## Blasphemonkey (Jul 11, 2003)

babomb said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Actually, he rolled two 16s, which is somewhat more inline (or maybe only one, since he could have raised one of them at 4th level). A tiefling gets +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Cha. This, along with a few other benefits, is supposed to put him behind a level. In this case, that rule was overlooked or misunderstood. *




Thanks for jogging my memory, since he joined us last winter I kind of forgot. He placed his highest rolls into Dex and Int, and then increased one of them by +1 for 4th level. This makes his original rolls look like: 14 Str, 16 Dex (now add +2 racial), 14 Con, 15 Int (add +2 racial, add +1 at 4th level), 14 Wis, 11 Cha (now -2 racial) = 14, 18, 14, 18, 14, 9. He still rolled very well, but it's a bit more reasonable when you figure in those racial and level modifiers.  

Interesting, though, how great Tiefling is for a rogue (unless you want to be a dashing, charismatic sort of rogue).


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## Blasphemonkey (Jul 11, 2003)

*Aww, come on!*

You guys...Camarath did so much work and thought on this, and you're criticizing his spelling. How rong of you!    

Seriously though, thank you, Camarath, the monkey truly appreciates this. It'll help a lot.  


While I'm writing here, I have two questions:

Can Tieflings see in the darkness they create? While he does have darkvision, I know he can't see in magical darkness. However, he argued that it wouldn't make sense that he couldn't see in his own darkness. Yet I can find no mention that he can, anywhere. Plus, sorcerors/wizards who cast darkness can't see in it. Obviously he loves to sneak attack foes within his darkness, but he doesn't do it that often because the rest of the group is at a disadvantage. And would he be able to dismiss the darkness? Any thoughts on this? I'm just in the dark about it...ooooh...sorry.  

The other question is regarding the ranger's favored enemy. He made his favored enemy Devils, as he is "reformed," being neutral good, and making his arch-enemy his naaasty half-fiend father (who I am making one of the main enemies of the campaign - and I'm thinking of "grandpa" being one of the head honchos in Hell/Baator). Now, does having favored enemy as Devils mean that he can recognize any demon he comes across, as well as their powers? Like (in game here), "Ahhh, that's a Barbazu. It can attack with it's beard and possibly give you a disease called devil chills, it can cause bleeding wounds, etc etc etc..." How much can a Ranger/Rogue/Tiefling with a Fiendish Bloodline know about devils and demons (I think demons would be the next favored enemy). I can find no mention of this in the PHB or DMG, maybe somewhere else, like one of the builder books? I can see how he should be able to recognize them for who they are, since they are his favored enemy and "know thy enemy," but where's the limit?

Thanks everyone again for all your advice.  


PS - The monkey's favored enemy is bad drivers.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jul 11, 2003)

The _darkness_ special ability works exactly like the spell of the same name: same size & duration, dismissable, and no, his darkvision doesn't work inside it.

As to knowledge: DM's call.  Personally, I'd give him a synergy bonus equal to his favored enemy bonus on all knowledge checks related to his favored enemy.


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## Numion (Jul 11, 2003)

*Re: Aww, come on!*



			
				Blasphemonkey said:
			
		

> *
> Can Tieflings see in the darkness they create? While he does have darkvision, I know he can't see in magical darkness.
> *




You answered that one yourself. The darkness is magical and thus darkvision won't work. Tada.


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## Blasphemonkey (Jul 11, 2003)

Good idea with the synergy bonus, thanks Olgar.  

He hasn't yet tried to dismiss his darkness, even when it seems like it might be an opportune time to do so. Though he could be upset when I rule "you can't see in there, it was a mistake that I let you, sorry," he may be placated by knowing he can dismiss it at will.


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## Camarath (Jul 11, 2003)

Blasphemonkey said:
			
		

> *He hasn't yet tried to dismiss his darkness, even when it seems like it might be an opportune time to do so. Though he could be upset when I rule "you can't see in there, it was a mistake that I let you, sorry," he may be placated by knowing he can dismiss it at will. *




His Darkness is 1/d and has a duration of 10 minutes/level so 50 minutes at his current level. And, his Darkvision can't see through it.



			
				Blasphemonkey said:
			
		

> *The other question is regarding the ranger's favored enemy. He made his favored enemy Devils, as he is "reformed," being neutral good,*




If he is Neutral Good you might consider changing the benifits of Fiendish Bloodline from Protection from Good 3/d and Bane 1/d to either Protection from Evil 3/d and Bless 1/d (same as Celestial Bloodline) or to See In Magical Darkness like the normal Devil ability (this would be fun but powerful so becareful if you chose to do this). The synergy bonus would be a nice bonus not too powerful but very flavorful.


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## Camarath (Jul 11, 2003)

LuYangShih said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Very well.  It is ROGUE, not rouge. *




Did you ever condiser that just maybe he really is red?  You colorist pigs sicken me.   There is just no love for the red people.  So what if he wants to paint himself up red?  So what if he meets a lot of "friends" on the streets?  Some people are just friendly like that.  Who are you to judge him?   Who are you to tell him he can't be the "Painted Lady" of his dreams?  It is his life style choice and his profession and you have no right to take it from him. 

(this is a joke only a joke )


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## Blasphemonkey (Jul 12, 2003)

A rogue by any other name is just as...I don't know, roguey?


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## Blasphemonkey (Jul 12, 2003)

sithramir said:
			
		

> *His feats are just insanely wrong. Is he even taking the -2/-2 from TWF feats? *




Actually, since he has a level in Ranger, he gets Two-Weapon Fighting and Ambidexterity as "virtual" feats. Ambidexterity cancels out that penalty you mentioned above. And yes, he is wearing light armor, Elven Chain, which he coerced the group into buying for him (how rogueish of him, so it makes sense in game, as someone said earlier). When you figure this in, it looks like he really does get NINE feats:

1st level character.....Dodge
Ranger 1..................Track, Two-Weapon Fighting, Ambidexterity
Tiefling.....................Weapon Finesse (in MM entry)
3rd level character.....Fiendish Bloodline
Fighter 2..................2 fighter feats - Mobility, Twin Sword Style
6th level character.....Outsider Wings

Needless to say, he is a level too high. All this time I've thought he is Ranger 1/Rogue 3/Fighter 1, but he has two levels in fighter. So I'm knocking him down a level, which doesn't thrill him of course, but he seems to understand. He's rolling 1d10 and subtracting those HP's, BAB and base save are going down, and we're nixing a feat (probably Twin Sword Style). I'm letting him keep the batwings even before his next feat of Outsider Wings when he gets level 6, just to make sense in-game ("wings are gone," "oh, they grew back now..."), and to be nice, again.    But that will be the next feat chosen anyway.

The skills I'll leave for the purposes of making it easier on both of us (and also to be nice), but he is not increasing them when he goes up to next level, of course.

So yes, I have spoken to him, and he seems agreeable enough. He is taking the Fiendish Bloodline feat, and taking Mobility in place of Spring Attack (since you really can't have the latter without the former anyway). 

His AC was a bit high, mainly because he has a buckler on his arm, which he wasn't aware that when he attacked with two swords, the armor bonus was cancelled out (and he should've been attacking with a penalty as well, on the off hand). So he's passing that on to another party member. The elven chain he thought was +1 for some reason, which it never was. So his AC is now 20. Base 10 + 5 Armor Bonus + 4 Dex + 1 Misc (Ring of Protection + 1) = 20 AC. He wrote 23, and I have no idea where that extra point of AC came from.

Regarding the Darkness ability, I've ruled that no, he can't see in them. Thanks for the advice on that. A rogue that can cast Darkness and see in it, is even more powerful than an improved invis'ed rogue.

I think that's it. He skipped some prereq's and somehow got one level higher than he should've been, and made a mistake on 2 points of AC. That's where the problems came from. Ahhh, I feel much better now. If anyone thinks I still have anything in error, please tell me. Thanks again everyone for all your help.


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## clark411 (Jul 12, 2003)

Unless I'm mistaken, with Ambi and TWF, you're still fighting at -2 / -2.. it's Superior or some other "Bester than Bestest TWF" in the Tempest PRC that totally negates penalties from having more than one weapon active at the same time.  Combat section in the PHB has a chart.. regardless, there's no way someone wielding two weapons is not taking penalties for it without more than just Ambi and TWF.

Also, Unfortunately for the Tief, a 3rd level character with any combination of Fighter, Rogue, or Ranger is not going to be able to get Fiendish Bloodline.  The Prereq requires a Base Save of +1 in all stats (not total save.. Base- what's on the class charts), and none of the classes have a Good Will save (all have poor) so he's pretty much waiting until his level 6 feat just for Fiendish BLine.  With the slow progression of will saves after that, he's looking at picking up Outsider Wings at level 9, or more likely, level 12 if you're playing it by the book.

If you're going to be so nice to him, I'd consider being nice to that dwarven fighter with the inferior stats and poor armor and general bleh comparison to this broken tiefling fellow.  Actually, I wouldn't consider being nice to the fighter at all, because I wouldn't be generous with the Tiefling to begin with- my thought process being along the lines of: "If I let Tom have a bonus, Jim should have one and Bill should and Mork should and Jeb should get one too and then everyone will have one and what havoc will this spawn for the next six months of the campaign? Aiiee!"

My biggest recommendation would be to sit next to him, totally deconstruct his character and reconstruct it as you have partially done with checking his armor class and docking him a level.  If this is a matter of fairness, where players who aren't asking for power in flavor (*says* "wings are cool" *thinks* and let me be invulnerable to a Tarrasque and most random animals/beasts/ground traps/melee threats), then you really ought to be considering being 100% fair- ie, going all the way with making the character correct in the rules rather than only partially.  

Bending in character creation can be, in some instances, really enriching for a character.. alternatively, it can be very imbalancing in the play that results from it (nevermind the potential for animosity that happens from Jim screwing up his feats and math and coming out on top for it while those walking the straight and narrow are left out).  

Retconning his flight capabilities completely until he gets the feat could be easily justified by giving him a wand of flight with two charges left in it.. and he was just making bluff checks with his otherwise primarily decorative wings he hopes to use one day.

But- to each their own.  I've never experienced a campaign where anything other than Exactly What The Rules State was the case when it came to character creation.  It's just what i'd feel most comfortable with, either as the guy playing the tiefling, or the others who'd be playing with the tiefling, or the guy having to be referee for the lot of them.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jul 12, 2003)

Blasphemonkey said:
			
		

> Actually, since he has a level in Ranger, he gets Two-Weapon Fighting and Ambidexterity as "virtual" feats. Ambidexterity cancels out that penalty you mentioned above.




Actually ambidexterity + TWF gets you to -2/-2 on attacks.  Check the "fighting with two weapons" table in the PHB.  Nothing (except for a few broken prestige classes) lowers than penalty.



> 1st level character.....Dodge
> Ranger 1..................Track, Two-Weapon Fighting, Ambidexterity
> Tiefling.....................Weapon Finesse (in MM entry)
> 3rd level character.....Fiendish Bloodline
> ...




Another problem here -- he does not get the Weapon Finesse feat that Tieflings in the MM get.  MM tieflings get that because they're 1st level monsters -- your player already gets his 1st level feat.  So scratch another one.

Unless a race specifically says it gets a free feat in the racial description (not the MM description), it doesn't get it.  Tiefling is otherwise a normal race -- so he's got 3 player-selected feats total (1st, 3d, Ftr 1) when you get done correcting his character levels, plus the ranger bonus feats.

As another note, I assume you're ignoring the regional feat prerequisites.  Fiendish Bloodline requires the character to be from Mulhorand, Thay, or Unther; Twin Sword Style requires the character to be from Sembia, Waterdeep, or be a drow -- so if you're using those prereq's, the character can't take both feats.



> Thanks again everyone for all your help.




No charge.


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## Blasphemonkey (Jul 12, 2003)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> *Actually ambidexterity + TWF gets you to -2/-2 on attacks.  Check the "fighting with two weapons" table in the PHB.  Nothing (except for a few broken prestige classes) lowers than penalty.
> *




Huh. You're right, look at that. The description in Ambidexterity is a little misleading. Well, here we go. More bad news for Mr. Tiefling.  



> *
> Another problem here -- he does not get the Weapon Finesse feat that Tieflings in the MM get.  MM tieflings get that because they're 1st level monsters -- your player already gets his 1st level feat.  So scratch another one.
> 
> Unless a race specifically says it gets a free feat in the racial description (not the MM description), it doesn't get it.  Tiefling is otherwise a normal race -- so he's got 3 player-selected feats total (1st, 3d, Ftr 1) when you get done correcting his character levels, plus the ranger bonus feats.
> *




Looks like I have to read all about Tiefling in Races of Faerun, or is that in the Forgotten Realms Campaign book? I'm learning more and more that to be safe, the DM either has to only allow what's in the core books, or shell out the cash for all those builder and add-on books. Sheesh.




> *
> No charge.  *




Thank the great Pelor! I need the money to buy some more books!    "Now, lessee...if I buy all the 3.5 core books, Races of Faerun, Forgotten Realms Campaign, and all the class-builder books, that comes out to how much? Oops!" {whips out charge card}


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## Blasphemonkey (Jul 12, 2003)

clark411 said:
			
		

> *Unless I'm mistaken, with Ambi and TWF, you're still fighting at -2 / -2.. it's Superior or some other "Bester than Bestest TWF" in the Tempest PRC that totally negates penalties from having more than one weapon active at the same time.  Combat section in the PHB has a chart.. regardless, there's no way someone wielding two weapons is not taking penalties for it without more than just Ambi and TWF.*




Yep, you are right on that, as someone else mentioned. (But you said it first so you get a prize...fiendish banana's incoming! Roll for initiative!)  



> *
> Also, Unfortunately for the Tief, a 3rd level character with any combination of Fighter, Rogue, or Ranger is not going to be able to get Fiendish Bloodline.  The Prereq requires a Base Save of +1 in all stats (not total save.. Base- what's on the class charts), and none of the classes have a Good Will save (all have poor) so he's pretty much waiting until his level 6 feat just for Fiendish BLine.  With the slow progression of will saves after that, he's looking at picking up Outsider Wings at level 9, or more likely, level 12 if you're playing it by the book.*




Actually, a 3rd level rogue has +1/+3/+1 base saves, so that does qualify. He started play at 4th level (ECL 5), and was at that point a Rogue 3/Ranger 1.



> *
> If you're going to be so nice to him, I'd consider being nice to that dwarven fighter with the inferior stats and poor armor and general bleh comparison to this broken tiefling fellow.  Actually, I wouldn't consider being nice to the fighter at all, because I wouldn't be generous with the Tiefling to begin with- my thought process being along the lines of: "If I let Tom have a bonus, Jim should have one and Bill should and Mork should and Jeb should get one too and then everyone will have one and what havoc will this spawn for the next six months of the campaign? Aiiee!"
> *




I am going to seriously recommend to the group that the next time they get into town, they buy the dwarf some good armor and a magical weapon. If that doesn't work, I'll start planting items around that purposefully won't do the Tiefling much good. (Is Full Plate too powerful for 6th level?)



> *
> Retconning his flight capabilities completely until he gets the feat could be easily justified by giving him a wand of flight with two charges left in it.. and he was just making bluff checks with his otherwise primarily decorative wings he hopes to use one day.
> *




I like this idea, very clever of you.    I'm giving it some thought. Thanks, Clark411!


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## mmu1 (Jul 12, 2003)

Blasphemonkey said:
			
		

> *
> I am going to seriously recommend to the group that the next time they get into town, they buy the dwarf some good armor and a magical weapon. If that doesn't work, I'll start planting items around that purposefully won't do the Tiefling much good. (Is Full Plate too powerful for 6th level?)
> *




Full Plate is easily within the realm of what a 3rd level character might be able to afford, at 1500 gp. Also, given the bonus starting wealth for Forgotten Realms characters (detailed in the FRCS) the dwarven fighter could have easily started off with a masterwork weapon or armor at 1st level, so he really has been running around with that scale a little too long. 

Reccommended wealth for 6th level characters is 13,000gp, so Full Plate+1, a +1 Weapon , Gauntlets of Ogre Strength wouldn't be reamotely out of line, by the "roolz".


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jul 12, 2003)

Blasphemonkey said:
			
		

> *
> Actually, a 3rd level rogue has +1/+3/+1 base saves, so that does qualify. He started play at 4th level (ECL 5), and was at that point a Rogue 3/Ranger 1.
> *




Only if he took his first three character levels as a Rogue.  Order matters.  If the third level was Rog2/Rgr1, he wouldn't qualify for the Fiendish Bloodline feat at 3rd level, because at 3rd level he'd still have a +0 save.

FRCS has the basic racial stats (and Twin Sword Style feat); Races of Faerun has the outsider feats.  Since the player's using them, I assume he has them -- just borrow them and read the appropriate sections.

If there are any lessons to be learned here for DM's, they are (1) check your players' work, 'cause they'll make mistakes, and (2) make sure you read the races/class/feat/skill/spell descriptions yourself, so you know what they can/can't do, and how they work.  It doesn't matter how much you trust your players; there is no substitute for understanding the mechanics yourself.

Enjoy!


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## Jens (Jul 12, 2003)

Blasphemonkey said:
			
		

> *... So I'm knocking him down a level, which doesn't thrill him of course, but he seems to understand. He's rolling 1d10 and subtracting those HP's, BAB and base save are going down, and we're nixing a feat (probably Twin Sword Style). ...*



I wouldn't do it like that. He already has nearly max HPs and with a little luck he will roll low on the d10 to be subtracted and then high on the new roll when he regains the level. He could end up with more HP than max! It would be better to subtract the last number rolled (if he can remember it) or an average of his previous rolls (adjusted for the fact that they were not all d10s). Then, when he regains the level, let him roll again. Currently, he his HD is 3d6+3d10+12 and he has 47 HPs, right?


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## mmu1 (Jul 12, 2003)

Jens said:
			
		

> *I wouldn't do it like that. He already has nearly max HPs and with a little luck he will roll low on the d10 to be subtracted and then high on the new roll when he regains the level. He could end up with more HP than max! It would be better to subtract the last number rolled (if he can remember it) or an average of his previous rolls (adjusted for the fact that they were not all d10s). Then, when he regains the level, let him roll again. Currently, he his HD is 3d6+3d10+12 and he has 47 HPs, right? *




Even better, just have him roll and record the number of HPs you're subtracting, then when he actually goes up the level again, add the same amount back.


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## Camarath (Jul 12, 2003)

He will not be able to take Outsider Wings at 6th level unless he takes a class with a Good will save. If he stays with his current classes he needs either 6th lv rouge or a 3rd lv rogue and a 3rd lv ranger or fighter (with a 2nd lv in the other class to avoid multiclassing penalties) so the earliest he could take it would be 9th.


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## Camarath (Jul 12, 2003)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> *As another note, I assume you're ignoring the regional feat prerequisites.  Fiendish Bloodline requires the character to be from Mulhorand, Thay, or Unther; Twin Sword Style requires the character to be from Sembia, Waterdeep, or be a drow -- so if you're using those prereq's, the character can't take both feats.
> *




There is no regional prerequisite listed under Fiendish Bloodline's prerequisites.


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## Camarath (Jul 12, 2003)

Oh, I posted a reworking of the character on page one of this thread if anyone wants to see it.


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## Destil (Jul 12, 2003)

I suggest throwing massive amounts of air at him. Flying creatures are treated as one size class smaller than nomrmal on the wind chart in the DMG, and even modrate winds can seriouslly hamper a small PC. Control Air (psionic power) is very good for this.


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## Blasphemonkey (Jul 12, 2003)

Jens[/i][B]
I wouldn't do it like that. He already has nearly max HPs and with a little luck he will roll low on the d10 to be subtracted and then high on the new roll when he regains the level. He could end up with more HP than max! It would be better to subtract the last number rolled (if he can remember it) or an average of his previous rolls (adjusted for the fact that they were not all d10s). Then said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Even better, just have him roll and record the number of HPs you're subtracting, then when he actually goes up the level again, add the same amount back. *




What a simple solution to it. Thanks, mmu1.


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## Blasphemonkey (Jul 12, 2003)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> *Only if he took his first three character levels as a Rogue.  Order matters.  If the third level was Rog2/Rgr1, he wouldn't qualify for the Fiendish Bloodline feat at 3rd level, because at 3rd level he'd still have a +0 save.*




His character was started at 4th level, since when he joined the group, everyone was fifth at that time. We just made him a Rogue 3/Ranger 1 when he started. I'm don't remember now which order he took the levels in, or even if he remembers, but I'll ask. I'm willing to give him the benefit of a doubt, unless he does say that he took a level of Ranger before his 3rd level of Rogue.



> *
> FRCS has the basic racial stats (and Twin Sword Style feat); Races of Faerun has the outsider feats.  Since the player's using them, I assume he has them -- just borrow them and read the appropriate sections.
> 
> If there are any lessons to be learned here for DM's, they are (1) check your players' work, 'cause they'll make mistakes, and (2) make sure you read the races/class/feat/skill/spell descriptions yourself, so you know what they can/can't do, and how they work.  It doesn't matter how much you trust your players; there is no substitute for understanding the mechanics yourself.
> ...




I completely agree. Everyone can make mistakes, whether they be a misunderstanding of the rules, or just a typo of sorts. I'm actually going to buy at least those two books myself I think (still debating). They do look to be pretty interesting, and it'll be easier for future reference as well.


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## Blasphemonkey (Jul 12, 2003)

Camarath said:
			
		

> *He will not be able to take Outsider Wings at 6th level unless he takes a class with a Good will save. If he stays with his current classes he needs either 6th lv rouge or a 3rd lv rogue and a 3rd lv ranger or fighter (with a 2nd lv in the other class to avoid multiclassing penalties) so the earliest he could take it would be 9th. *




Regarding the Ranger's will save, he says that the Errata states that at 1st level, the Ranger gets a + 2 Will save, so it's Fort + 2, Reflex + 0, Will + 2 for Rangers. I'm not sure if this is correct (maybe I have an old errata because I couldn't find it), but if 3.5 would come out already I could check it.    So in any case, that leaves him will a Will Base Save of + 3 (he got another + 1 to Will at one of his Rogue levels).

Oh, and the Tiefling's favored class is Rogue, so as long as he keeps those Fighter and Ranger levels from getting too far apart, he won't get an xp penalty.  

This is a really complicated character. He says he's been playing for many years and had many different characters, and this is his most complex one. Oh, lucky me.   

Up to 106 posts now??? Everyone wants to help the monkey, thanks so much!


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## clark411 (Jul 12, 2003)

The PHB errata is here: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/phb_corrections.zip

And I looked.  Rangers do not get Good will saves. :/


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## Camarath (Jul 12, 2003)

Rangers do not get good will saves. The classes with good will saves are Bard, Cleric, Druid, Monk, Sorcerer, and Wizard. In 3.5 the ranger will get good fortitude and reflex saves and a poor will save (I think this is the case, I am not certain on this point).


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## Camarath (Jul 12, 2003)

Blasphemonkey said:
			
		

> *I completely agree. Everyone can make mistakes, whether they be a misunderstanding of the rules, or just a typo of sorts. I'm actually going to buy at least those two books myself I think (still debating). They do look to be pretty interesting, and it'll be easier for future reference as well.   *




I tend not to let people use things in books I don't own. I do make exceptions if they let me barrow the book for a wile and make some copies of the appropriate rules.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jul 12, 2003)

Camarath said:
			
		

> *
> 
> There is no regional prerequisite listed under Fiendish Bloodline's prerequisites. *




As you were; it's listed under Tiefling, not under the feat itself.  Same effect in the end.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jul 12, 2003)

Camarath said:
			
		

> *Rangers do not get good will saves. The classes with good will saves are Bard, Cleric, Druid, Monk, Sorcerer, and Wizard. In 3.5 the ranger will get good fortitude and reflex saves and a poor will save (I think this is the case, I am not certain on this point). *




Exactly correct.  Regardless of which rules sets you use, neither rangers nor rogues nor fighters have good Will saves.



> This is a really complicated character. He says he's been playing for many years and had many different characters, and this is his most complex one. Oh, lucky me.




It could be a lot more complicated.  If he's been playing for many years, then given all the other things he's told you (saves, feats, etc, etc) he's either absolutely horrible with the rules, or he's trying to take advantage of you.  In either case, I'd put his characters and actions under a microscope for a while, and not take anything he presents at face value until it's checked with a rulebook.


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## takyris (Jul 13, 2003)

Okay, this might be a hardline approach, more hardline than what other people are suggesting, but here it is:

He didn't know about Ambi/Two-Weaponing rules

He got his Armor Class wrong

He screwed up multiple feat pre-requisites

He's giving himself the feats of the Tiefling character in the Monster Manual as though they were bonus feats.

He doesn't understand how to read a Save chart, or he's screwing up and using the Monte Ranger or something.

Am I the only one who thinks that letting someone with this shoddy a grasp of the rules run a character this complex is a lousy idea?  Frankly, "being nice to him" when he's already far more powerful than the party's dwarven fighter because he either cheated or screwed up horrifically multiple times in his favor strikes me as dumb.  Not saying that YOU'RE dumb, just that he seems to be milking this game for all that he is worth.

Playing a non-standard PHB character is NOT a right.  It is an earned privilege.  If you can't get your AC correct at 6th level, just using armor and a shield and feats, you DO NOT have the right to play a lizard-man or weretiger or Imp or other character with potentially game-breaking abilities.

Maybe that's an unpopular stance.  Maybe I'm a closeminded jerk.  But for crying out loud -- anybody want to take bets on whether or not this guy knows that you only get half of your normal strength bonus to damage when attacking with your off hand?  

This guy needs to play a straight-classed elven ranger for awhile.  He can still be cool and stylish, but he needs to be cool and stylish according to the core rules until he has demonstrated an ability to NOT screw the rest of the party over by unintentionally cheating in his own favor.


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## Camarath (Jul 13, 2003)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> *
> 
> As you were; it's listed under Tiefling, not under the feat itself.  Same effect in the end. *




If you place in Faerun and your DM doesn't let you choose another region, that's true.


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## Blasphemonkey (Jul 13, 2003)

I'm not counting those regional prerequisites, since we don't even play in FR at all, but my own "homebrewed" world. I know, then one would argue, why pull things out of a book that describes a world different than yours? While it is true that I may find some problems with some of the things in there, since Faerun is different than the world I've created, there are some neat ideas in there. Again, on a case-by-case basis.


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## Blasphemonkey (Jul 13, 2003)

clark411 said:
			
		

> *The PHB errata is here: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/phb_corrections.zip
> 
> And I looked.  Rangers do not get Good will saves. :/ *




Thanks.    Okay, so he must live with his crummy +1 base save for Will, which comes from his rogue side (Rogue 2 or 3). I don't know how or where he came up +2 for Ranger1.


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## takyris (Jul 14, 2003)

Hey, Blasphemonkey, one more thing:

Make sure that you nail down how his character got built:

If he took Rogue levels first, then he couldn't have Weapon Finesse at first level, and his first-level Maxed-HD is 6 hit points.

If he took Ranger or Fighter levels first, then he should only have gotten (2+Int) or (4+Int) x4 at first level.

If he's doing everything else wrong, I would not be surprised to see that he gave himself a Rangers first-level hit points and BAB along with a Rogues first-level number of skills.


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## Blasphemonkey (Jul 14, 2003)

Thanks Takyris, we played yesterday and he said it would be simpler to just reroll his HP in order. I still happen to have the scrap of where I wrote the totals. Rogue1: Max 6 + Con 2 = 8. Rogue2: 1 (ouch) + Con 2 = 3. Rogue3: 6 + Con 2 = 8. Ranger1: 8 + Con 2 = 10. Fighter1: 6 + Con 2 = 8. Added up: 37 HP (which is 10 less than what he originally had, I think).

As for what you said in another post:



			
				takyris said:
			
		

> *He's giving himself the feats of the Tiefling character in the Monster Manual as though they were bonus feats.
> *




He did in fact give himself Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat, as well as having Dodge. I made him choose between the two, and he chose to keep WF and drop Dodge.


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## JacktheRabbit (Jul 14, 2003)

How patient is the rest of the party being? Right about now my BS meter would be in overload.


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## Apok (Jul 14, 2003)

Camarath said:
			
		

> * In 3.5 the ranger will get good fortitude and reflex saves and a poor will save (I think this is the case, I am not certain on this point). *




You are indeed correct, sir.  Rangers in 3.5 have good Fortitude and Reflex saves.


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## Blasphemonkey (Jul 14, 2003)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *How patient is the rest of the party being? Right about now my BS meter would be in overload. *




Some of them were getting pretty fed up, since they were being all but overshadowed by this PC. He was supposed to meet me early, before the game, to work all this stuff out (I was trying to be discrete for his benefit). He showed up later than he was supposed to, which translates to 15 minutes before gametime. Needless to say, most of the other players showed up to see us "fixing" his character. From both this and seeing his effectiveness lessened during combat, the others (or at least most of them) put two and two together...they seemed pretty happy. Our barbarian/sorceror landed the killing blow on a chimera, and the dwarven warrior was the one who made the final strike and laid the spectre to rest (now the wizard has a chance of going down two levels from the above mentioned spectre, but that's a nice cliffhanger for the next game, heheh).

Thanks again, all!


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## Dr. Zoom (Jul 14, 2003)

If he dropped Dodge, then he cannot have Mobility.

Regarding his favored enemy and knowledge of devils, 3.5 will allow Knowledge skill checks to know these things.  Knowledge (the planes) will cover outsiders, so tell him he needs some ranks in this skill, and then allow his favored enemy to give a +2 synergy bonus to the knowledge check when using it for devils.


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## Ridley's Cohort (Jul 14, 2003)

takyris said:
			
		

> *Playing a non-standard PHB character is NOT a right.  It is an earned privilege.  If you can't get your AC correct at 6th level, just using armor and a shield and feats, you DO NOT have the right to play a lizard-man or weretiger or Imp or other character with potentially game-breaking abilities.
> 
> Maybe that's an unpopular stance.  Maybe I'm a closeminded jerk.  But for crying out loud -- anybody want to take bets on whether or not this guy knows that you only get half of your normal strength bonus to damage when attacking with your off hand?
> 
> This guy needs to play a straight-classed elven ranger for awhile.  He can still be cool and stylish, but he needs to be cool and stylish according to the core rules until he has demonstrated an ability to NOT screw the rest of the party over by unintentionally cheating in his own favor. *




In the abstract, I concur.  While I would still give this player the benefit of the doubt and assume the mistakes are not intentional, he is still a player who has demonstrated he cannot be trusted to properly construct a non-standard character without the DM looking over his shoulder to check his work.

As a practical matter, it is probably better to try and fix the character and keep the campaign moving.


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## Blasphemonkey (Jul 14, 2003)

I chose the practical.  

And:




			
				Dr. Zoom said:
			
		

> *If he dropped Dodge, then he cannot have Mobility.*




Yes, he also dropped Mobility.



> *
> Regarding his favored enemy and knowledge of devils, 3.5 will allow Knowledge skill checks to know these things.  Knowledge (the planes) will cover outsiders, so tell him he needs some ranks in this skill, and then allow his favored enemy to give a +2 synergy bonus to the knowledge check when using it for devils. *




Good idea, and Olgar gave similar advice above.  I like it, thanks.


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