# No Prebuff - Round 1 - Damage Rankings



## FrogReaver (Sep 20, 2019)

I find the amount of single target damage a PC can dish out in the first round of combat to be an interesting and useful statistic.  I think crowdsourcing this kind of exercise out will yield results a lot faster.  After some builds get posted I'll classify them and place them here on the front page.  Right now I'm thinking feats vs non feats, multiclassing vs non-multiclassing.  Stuff like that.

I don't want this to be a Damage Kings style thread where you only ever attempt to one up the previous poster, to the point that you've created a character that won't work in practice just so you can say you created the most damaging PC.  I find knowing the results of actual playable builds to be much more interesting.  That's what I'm pushing for here.

Without further ado:
*Rules:  *
1.  Use point buy for character creation
2.  +3 in your attack stat mod will be 55% chance to hit.  +4 will be 60% chacne to hit.  +5 will be 65% chance to hit.
3.  Crits are recommended to be accounted for but not required.
4.  Use whatever features, source material, rules or interpretations you would like.  Just try to summarize anything you think might not be universal.
5.  Saving throws will be calculated the same way as attacks 55% chance for enemy to fail at +3 mod etc.
6.  No Prebuffs
7.  Damage should be calculated for the first round of combat.

Any additional questions please post.


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## FrogReaver (Sep 20, 2019)

*Level 2*
27.7 = Variant Human (GWM) + War Cleric + Guided Strike + War Priest
24.8 = Variant Human (Lucky) Paladin Dual wielding Short Swords + Divine Smite
23.1 = Variant Human (Martial Adept) Paladin + GWF + Divine Smite + Thundering Smite + Trip + Precision
19.9 = Variant Human (PAM) Paladin + spear + duelist + Divine Smite
19.0 = Variant Human (Martial Adept) + GWF + Action Surge + Trip + Precision
18.7 = Divination Wizard + Catapult + (Consumable) Acid Vial
17.5 = Variant Human (Magic Initiate: Hex) Fighter + Greatsword + Great Weapon Style + Action Surge
17.1 = Variant Human Magic Initiate (Magic Missile) Fighter + GWF + Action Surge + Great Sword
16.5 = War Cleric + Guided Strike + Inflict Wounds
16.4 = Level 2 Diviner + Magic Initiate (Dissonant Whispers) + Portent on Dissonant Whispers + Quarterstaff
15.5 = Paladin + Great Sword + Divine Smite + Thunderous Smite
15.4 = Variant Human (SS) + Heavy Crossbow + Archery Style + Action Surge
15.2 = Variant Human (Lucky) Monk + Flurry of Blows
14.4 =  Human Tempest Cleric (Magic Initiate) + Chromatic Orb + Destructive Wrath
14.3 = Human Fighter + PAM + Action Surge + Great Weapon Style + Gliave
14.0 = Human Fighter + PAM + Action Surge + Duelist + Spear
13.7 = Half Orc Fighter Great Sword + Style + Action Surge
13.6 = Fighter + Variant Human (GWM) + Great Weapon Style + Great Sword + Action Surge
13.5 = Fighter + Action Surge + Great Sword + Great Weapon Style
13.0 = Human Fighter with PAM + glaive + action surge
11.3 = Druid Wildshape Brown Bear
10.6 = Human Barbarian with PAM. Reckless attack with a glaive
10.5 = Wizard + Magic Missile
  8.8 =  Half Orc Barbarian 2 with a Greataxe

*Level 6*
99.2 Variant Human (GWM) Battlemaster Fighter + GWF + Lucky + 18 Str + Trip + Precision
79.9 Variant Human (magic initiate: hex) Battle Master Fighter + 20Str + GWF + Precision + Trip
78 = Variant Human (GWM) Battle Master Fighter + 20Str + GWF + Precision + Trip
67.7 = Variant Human (SS) + Battle Master Fighter + Precision + Menacing + Archery + Magic Initiate (Hex) + 18 Dex
67.1 = Half Orc Battle Master Fighter + GWF+ 20Str + Precision + Trip *(No feats)*
64.5 = Variant Human Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 4 + Lucky + Quicken + GWF + Divine Smite + Booming Blade
64.3 = Elven Samurai + SS + Archery + Elven Accuracy + 18 Dex
62.5 = Variant Human (GWM) Samurai + 20 Str + Action Surge
61.9 = Druid Conjure Animals (Giant Poisonous Snakes)
56.8 = Elf Samurai SharpShooter + Elven Accuracy + Action Surge + 16 Dex
48.6 = Druid Conjure Animals (Wolfs + Pack Tactics)
47.8 = VHuman (lucky) Tempest Cleric 2 Sorcerer 4 Chromatic Orb + Destructive Wrath + Quicken Firebolt
46.4 = Variant Human GloomStalker Ranger + Lucky + SharpShooter + Archery Style + Longbow + Hail of Thorns
43.3 = Variant Human Warlock 4 / Fighter 2 + Hex (18 Cha) + Lucky+ Action Surge
42.7 = Fighter 2 + Warcleric 4 +18 wis + Action Surge + Inflict Wounds
42.6 = Tiefling Sorcerer + FoP + 18 Cha + Quicken + Heightened + Elemental Affinity + Fireball + Firebolt
42.3 = Variant Human Battlemaster 3 + Swashbuckler 3 + Lucky + Action Surge (offturn attack)
36.4 = Variant Human (GWM) War Cleric (18 str)
29.4 = Variant Human Barbarian 5 / Fighter 1 + GWM + GWF + PAM
27.1 = Divination Wizard (18 Int) + Fireball
25.6 = Tempest Cleric Destructive Wrath + Shatter
21.4 = Variant Human College of Swords Bard + PAM + 18 Str


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## FrogReaver (Sep 20, 2019)

*Level 20
274.1* = Tiefling Fighter 2/Hexblade 1/Draconic Sorceror 17 + Flames of Phegethos + Elemental Adept + CHA 20 + Hexblade's Curse + Meteor Swarm + Action Surge + Disintigetrate + Heighten + Empower
*257.6* = Battlemaster 11 / Hexblade 1 / Paladin 2 / Barbarian 2 / Sorcerer 4, doing six Reckless greatsword attacks with Hexblade's Curse+GWF+GWM+Precision Attack+Action Surge, and smites on each one


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## Esker (Sep 21, 2019)

Obviously I can't resist giving this a try, but what level do you have in mind?

And is this a once-per-day deal, or first round of combat every combat?


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## Esker (Sep 21, 2019)

Probably not quite what you have in mind, but so far I've gotten to 274.1 for one turn per day at 20th level with a Tiefling Fighter 2 / Hexblade 1 / Draconic Sorcerer 17.

Take Flames of Phlegethos and Elemental Adept (Fire), and get CHA to 20.

Bonus Action: Hexblade's Curse

Action: Meteor Swarm (Heightened and Empowered, rerolling all 1-3s w/ empowered, then rerolling 1s again for the fire part using Flames of Phlegethos, then treating any remaining 1s as 2s using Elemental Adept)

Action Surge: 8th level Disintegrate (Heightened and Empowered).

Of course Meteor Swarm has a massive friendly fire problem.



Spoiler: Math



We assume a 65% chance of failing saves, but with heightened spell that goes up to 87.75%.

Meteor Swarm does 20d6+11 fire, 20d6 bludgeoning to the main target, half on save (+5 comes from Draconic Sorcerer's Elemental Affinity feature, which adds CHA mod to one damage roll for any fire damage spell, and +6 against one target from Hexblade's Curse).

Disintegrate upcast to 8th does 16d6+46 force, nothing on a save.

Assuming we use empowered spell to reroll all d6s that come up 1,2 or 3, each d6 roll starts out worth 4.25 points of damage on average (1/2 * 3.5 + 1/6 * 4 + 1/6 * 5 + 1/6 * 6).

Flames of Phlegethos lets us reroll any remaining ones. On average, 1/12 of the d6s will be 1s after rerolling for empowered spell. Rerolling these and applying Elemental Adept to treat any 1s that remain as 2s nets us (3.5 + 1/6) - 1 extra damage per 1 rolled. So d6s for fire are worth 4.25 + 1/12 * ((3.5 + 1/6) - 1) = 4.4722222...

So, all together we have 36d6 bludgeoning and force (= 36 * 4.25 = 153), 20d6 fire (= 20 * 4.47222 = 89.44444), and 57 static damage, for a total of 299.44444 on failed saves, with a 87.75% chance of a failed save. On a successful save (12.25% chance), meteor swarm still does half damage, or 0.5 * (20 * 4.25 + 20 * 4.4722222 + 11) = 92.7222

Total: 0.8775 * 299.4444 + 0.1225 * 92.7222 = *274.1*

Of course, the two feats aren't really adding all that much here. Without them we still get

0.875 * (56 * 4.25 + 40 + 11) + 0.125 * 0.5 * (40 * 4.25 + 11) = *264.2*


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## Esker (Sep 21, 2019)

If the "single creature" can be ourselves, we can increase that by casting Hellish Rebuke on ourselves at 7th level immediately after hitting ourselves with meteor swarm...


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## Esker (Sep 21, 2019)

With an actual single target turn, I get 257.6 with a Battlemaster 11 / Hexblade 1 / Paladin 2 / Barbarian 2 / Sorcerer 4, doing six Reckless greatsword attacks with Hexblade's Curse+GWF+GWM+Precision Attack+Action Surge, and smites on each one (2 3rd level slots, 3 2nd level slots, 1 1st level slot).

(Though I didn't quite calculate the impact of precision attack exactly right for advantage; it should be a little higher than this in light of that)


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## Blue (Sep 21, 2019)

Using PHB and XGtE for a 20th level character.

Half-Elf
Warlock Hexblade / Pact of the Blade 3- Greatsword using CHR - hexblade can apply to your pact weapon even if not the other limitations.
Paladin Oath of Vengeance 6 - Advantage, Divine Smite, Extra Attack
Fighter (Champion) 3 - Crit Range, action surge, Great Weapon fighting
Ranger Gloomstalker 4 - extra attack on each Attack action in first round with +d8 dmg
Cleric Forge 1 - +1 weapon from long-rest to long-rest (not considering that pre-buffing because of constant availability)
Bard Swords 3 - inspiration die to damage 1/turn

Oath of Vengeance (as bonus action)
Elven Accuracy
Great Weapon Master

After CHR 20, +1 weapon, GWM, 19-20 crit range, advantage, and elven accuracy, we have a 27.1% chance of crit and a 56.2625% chance to hit-no-crit.

Great sword does 8 1/3 average with Great Weapon fighting style. Two attacks have +d8 from Gloom Stalker as well which will get multiplied on a crit but we can't assign after a hit. Also +16 static damage.

Damage from attacks before Divine Smite and Bard is: 145.2~.

EDIT: Updated bonus damage - for some reason was thinking eight attacks, not
six.  The damage calc sheet still has those in, delete lines 61 & 62.

9th level caster - will add four +5d8 (4th & 5th level slots) and two 4d8 (3rd level slots) to damage. Since we will know if it's a crit, crits start at the top, non-crits start at the lowest.

In addition, first crit has sword bard +d6 for 7 average.

With the crit chances, Wolfram Alpha says to expect 1.625 crits with six attacks. So I'll do one full crit (5d8+1d6) and one .625 of a crit (5d8) and add in the others as non-crits.

That adds in 169.6~ bonus damage.

Total = 314.8 average damage.  (EDIT: Lowered with smite damage change above)

(But it doesn't keep up in further rounds, without gloom stalker 1st round extra attacks and action surge, it's only 2 attacks a round.)

EDIT: Added in my ugly spreadsheet of calculations.


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## Blue (Sep 21, 2019)

Anybody up for different levels?

Let's start simple.  Half Orc Barbarian 2 with a Greataxe.  +3 STR mod so 55% chance to hit, which is 50% chance to hit, 5% chance to crit.  Reckless Attack makes those 9.75% crit, 70% hit.  Hit is 9.5, crit with half orc racial is 22.5.  Expected is 8.8~ damage per round.


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## Esker (Sep 21, 2019)

Lvl 2: Human Barbarian with PAM. Reckless attack with a glaive:

(5.5+3 + 2.5+3)*0.7 + (5.5+2.5)*0.0975 = 10.58 (every round)

or, optimizing for 1st round (1/SR):

Human Fighter with PAM using action surge:

(2*(5.5+3) + 2.5+3)*0.55 + (2*5.5+2.5)*0.05 = 13.0


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## FrogReaver (Sep 23, 2019)

Level 2 Paladin

Great Sword + Divine Smite + Thunderous Smite

26*.55 + 23*.05 = 15.45


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## FrogReaver (Sep 23, 2019)

Level 2 War Cleric

Inflict Wounds + Guided Stroke

.95*16.5+.05*16.5= 16.5


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## FrogReaver (Sep 23, 2019)

Level 2 Druid Wildshape Brown Bear

=11.3


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## FrogReaver (Sep 23, 2019)

Level 2 Half Orc Fighter Great Sword + Style + Action Surge

=13.7

=11.33*.55*2+.05*4.167*3*2


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## FrogReaver (Sep 23, 2019)

Esker said:


> Lvl 2: Human Barbarian with PAM. Reckless attack with a glaive:
> 
> (5.5+3 + 2.5+3)*0.7 + (5.5+2.5)*0.0975 = 10.58 (every round)
> 
> ...




The Fighter can be increased to 14.3 if you use Great Weapon Style


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## FrogReaver (Sep 23, 2019)

Level 2 Variant Human (GWM) + Great Weapon Style + Great Sword + Action Surge

=13.6


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## FrogReaver (Sep 23, 2019)

Level 2 Variant Human War Cleric + GWM + Guided Strike

=27.7

Attack 1:  20*0.3+20*.5
Attack 2:  20*.3+20*.5*.5
Additional Crit Damage = 7*7*.05=.7


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## FrogReaver (Sep 23, 2019)

I updated the start of the thread with a summary of the level 2 builds we have made


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## FrogReaver (Sep 24, 2019)

Level 2 Paladin with PAM and spear + Divine Smite

=19.9

.55*(8.5+7.5+9+9)+.05*(3.5+2.5+9+9)


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## FrogReaver (Sep 24, 2019)

Level 2 Fighter Great Sword + Great Weapon Style + Action Surge

=13.5

Level 2 Human Fighter (PAM) + Duelist + Action Surge

= 14


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## Esker (Sep 24, 2019)

Level 2 Human Tempest Cleric (Magic Initiate) + Chromatic Orb + Destructive Wrath:

= 3 * 8 * 0.55 + 3 * 8 + 0.05 = 14.4


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## FrogReaver (Sep 24, 2019)

Level 2 Variant Human (Lucky) Paladin Dual wielding Short Swords + Divine Smites

= 24.8

=(3.5+3+3.5+9+9) * .7975 + (3.5+3.5+9+9) * .0975


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## FrogReaver (Sep 24, 2019)

Level 2 Variant Human (Lucky) Monk + Flurry of Blows

=15.2

.7975 * (4.5+3 + 2.5+3 + 2.5+3) + .0975*(4.5+2.5+2.5)


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## FrogReaver (Sep 24, 2019)

Level 2 Variant Human (Magic Initiate: Hex) + Greatsword + Great Weapon Style + Action Surge

=17.5

(11.33+3.5+11.33+3.5)_.55 + .05_(8.33+8.33+3.5+3.5)


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## FrogReaver (Sep 24, 2019)

I think I really need some standardized abbreviations.  The level 20 character summaries are getting nasty to type up.


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## Esker (Sep 24, 2019)

Level 2 Human (Magic Initiate) Diviner + Inflict Wounds + Portent

(3 * 5.5) * (1 - (1 - 0.55)^3 + 1 - (1 - 0.05)^2 + (1 - 0.55)^2*0.05)) = 16.8


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## Esker (Sep 24, 2019)

If you're the sort of person who abuses obvious RAW loopholes, the Lucky Paladin dual wielder could drop prone or close their eyes before attacking to induce disadvantage-for-super-advantage...

(3.5+3+3.5+9+9) * (1 - (1 - 0.55)^3) + (3.5+3.5+9+9) * (1 - (1 - 0.05)^3) = 29.0


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## Esker (Sep 24, 2019)

Level 2 Human Hexblade (Magic Initiate) + Hexblade's Curse + Magic Missile: 16.5


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## FrogReaver (Sep 24, 2019)

Esker said:


> Level 2 Human Hexblade (Magic Initiate) + Hexblade's Curse + Magic Missile: 16.5




Are you sure that adds per bolt?


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## Esker (Sep 24, 2019)

FrogReaver said:


> Are you sure that adds per bolt?




Pretty sure... I think either you roll 1d4+1 three times, and therefore add +2 to each one, or you roll 1d4+1 once, add +2 to that, and that's the damage of each dart.


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## Esker (Sep 24, 2019)

Trying to work out the math for a Level 2 Diviner with Magic Initiate (Bard) using Portent on Dissonant Whispers and then doing an AoO with a two-handed quarterstaff, also potentially with portent...  But I'm too sleepy right now to sort out the dependencies between the two sources of damage due to potentially using up a portent die on the first one.


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## Esker (Sep 24, 2019)

Okay, here goes. This is even more complicated than I was realizing since you need low values for inducing a failed save (11 or lower) and high values to generate a hit (10 or higher), but these ranges overlap.

So the relevant bins are: 1-9, 10-11, 12-19, 20

Case 1: Two 1-9s: 0.45 * 0.45
Case 2: One 1-9, one 10-19: 2 * 0.45 * 0.50
Case 3: One 1-9, one 20: 2 * 0.45 * 0.05
Case 4: Two 10-11s: 0.10 * 0.10
Case 5: One 10-11, one 12-19: 2 * 0.10 * 0.40
Case 6: One 10-11, one 20: 2 * 0.10 * 0.05
Case 7: Two 12-19s: 0.40 * 0.40
Case 8: One 12-19, one 20: 2 * 0.40 * 0.05
Case 9: Two 20s: 0.05 * 0.05

Case 1: Dissonant Whispers for 3d6, regular attack roll for staff: 10.5 + 0.55 * 7.5 = 14.625
Case 2,4,5: Dissonant Whispers for 3d6, autohit on staff: 10.5 + 7.5 = 18
Case 3,6: Autocrit on Chromatic Orb (better than DW + staff crit): 27
Case 7: Autohit Chromatic Orb (better than letting them roll for DW): 13.5
Case 8,9: Autocrit Chromatic Orb: 27

Expected Damage: (0.45*0.45) * (14.625) + (2*0.45*0.50 + 0.10*0.10 + 2*0.10*0.40) * 18 + (2*0.45*0.05+2*0.10*0.05+0.05*0.05) * 27 + (0.40*0.40)*13.5 = *16.4*


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## FrogReaver (Sep 28, 2019)

Level 6  Variant Human (GWM) War Cleric

= 36.4

.85*21+.85*21+.05*14


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## FrogReaver (Sep 28, 2019)

Level 6 Samurai Variant Human (GWM) 20 Str + Action Surge

=62.5

.64*(8.33+5+10)*4 + .0975*7*4


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## FrogReaver (Sep 28, 2019)

Level 6 Divination Wizard + Fireball

27.1

=.936*28+.064*14


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## Esker (Sep 28, 2019)

Fighter 2 / War Cleric 4 (18 WIS): 2x Inflict Wounds 

1.0 * 22 + (0.6+0.6*0.4) * 22 + 2*0.05*22 = 42.68


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## Esker (Sep 28, 2019)

Human Barbarian 5 / Fighter 1 (PAM+GWM+GWF+Reckless Attack):

(2 * (6.3 + 13) + (3+ 13)) * (1 - (1 - 0.55)^2) + (2*6.3+3)*(1 - (1 - 0.05)^2) = 45.1 (repeatable every round)


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## FrogReaver (Sep 28, 2019)

Esker said:


> Human Barbarian 5 / Fighter 1 (PAM+GWM+GWF+Reckless Attack):
> 
> (2 * (6.3 + 13) + (3+ 13)) * (1 - (1 - 0.55)^2) + (2*6.3+3)*(1 - (1 - 0.05)^2) = 45.1 (repeatable every round)




Your chance to hit is too high.  Looks like you didn't subtract the -5 attack from GWM.  Base hit chance should be 30%.  Reckless should be 1-(1-.3)^2


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## Esker (Sep 28, 2019)

FrogReaver said:


> Your chance to hit is too high.  Looks like you didn't subtract the -5 attack from GWM.  Base hit chance should be 30%.  Reckless should be 1-(1-.3)^2




Yeah, of course. That's what happens when I try to quickly dash off a post on the way out the door. 

Should be a total of 29.4


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## FrogReaver (Sep 28, 2019)

Level 6 Variant Human College of Swords Bard + PAM + 18 Str

=21.4

=(9.5+9.5+8.5)*.6+[1-(1-.6)^3]*4.5 + .05*14 = 21.4


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## FrogReaver (Sep 28, 2019)

Level 6 Variant Human GloomStalker Ranger + Lucky + SharpShooter + Archery Style + Longbow + Hail of Thorns

=46.4

2*.64*(4.5+3+10)+.64*(4.5+3+10+4.5)+.0975*18 + .95*11*.55+.95*11/2*.45


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## FrogReaver (Sep 28, 2019)

Level 6 Variant Human Lucky Warlock 4 / Fighter 2 + Hex (18 Cha)

=43.3

.84*3*13 + .6*13 + .0975*3*8+.05*8


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## FrogReaver (Sep 28, 2019)

Level 6 Variant Human Battlemaster 3 + Swashbuckler 3 + Lucky + Action Surge (offturn attack)

=42.3

.7975*3*(3.5+3+4.5)+.96*7+.7975*7+.0975*38


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## FrogReaver (Sep 28, 2019)

Level 6 Variant Human Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 4 + Lucky + Quicken + GWF + Divine Smite + Booming Blade

64.5

.84*(8.33+4+4.5+18)_2+.0975*2_(8.33+4.5+18)


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## FrogReaver (Sep 29, 2019)

Level 6 Elf Samurai SharpShooter + Elven Accuracy + Action Surge

=56.8

[1-(1-.4)^3]*17.5*4+[1-(1-.05)^3]*4.5*3


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## FrogReaver (Sep 29, 2019)

Side Bar:  Let's work out the math for sorcerer empowered spell + flames of phelegothos

I want to do a fireball + firebolt sorcerer build and get the math right.  I'm thinking empowered spell will be worth more damage than heightened but computing the reroll abilities is hard.

How does empowered and flames of phelogothos work together?


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## FrogReaver (Sep 29, 2019)

I'll do the easy sorcerer first:

Tiefling Sorcerer 6 + Flames of Pylogothos + 18 Cha + Quicken + Heightened + Elemental Affinity

=42.6

_(Fireball)_ [1-(1-.4)^2]_3.9167*8+(1-.4)^2*3.9167/2*8 + (Firebolt) (5.95*2+4)_.6 + 5.95*2*.05


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## FrogReaver (Sep 29, 2019)

@Esker I need your help.  I want to calculate the damage of a BattleMaster fighter using no feats but precision attack and trip attack.  I've not mastered the art of calculating precision attack correctly since you figured out the correct way to do it.


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## FrogReaver (Sep 29, 2019)

Level 6 Half Orc Battle Master Fighter + 20Str + GWF + Precision + Trip *(No Feats)*

=67.1

*Calculation is very complex*


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## Esker (Sep 29, 2019)

FrogReaver said:


> Side Bar:  Let's work out the math for sorcerer empowered spell + flames of phelegothos
> 
> I want to do a fireball + firebolt sorcerer build and get the math right.  I'm thinking empowered spell will be worth more damage than heightened but computing the reroll abilities is hard.
> 
> How does empowered and flames of phelogothos work together?




I think it depends whether you consider the rerolls you are doing to be "rolling damage", and whether "you must use the new rolls" overrides the text of the other ability that lets you reroll. If no to the first or yes to the second, FoP just lets you reroll 1s without counting those dice toward the CHA mod number of dice you get to reroll. 

But I think it makes to allow the abilities to daisy chain: use empowered spell to reroll everything below average first, then any 1s that remain, reroll those using FoP.

Let's first ignore the limitations on the number of dice you can reroll, and work out the expected value of a single die using both abilities.

With Empowered alone, a d6 has a 1/2 chance of being rerolled, and a 1/2 chance of not being rerolled. If it's not rerolled, its expected value is 1/3 * (4 + 5 + 6) = 5. If it is rerolled, without FoP, its expected value is 3.5. So overall its expected value is 1/2 * 3.5 + 1/2 * 5 = 4.25.

With FoP alone, there's a 1/6 chance the die is a 1, and therefore gets rerolled, with an expected value of 3.5. There's a 5/6 chance it isn't, with an expected value of 1/5 * (2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6) = 4. So overall we get an expected value of 1/6 * 3.5 + 5/6 * 4 = 3.92.

Nesting FoP into Empowered, we get

1/2 * 3.92 + 1/2 * 5 = 4.46

But, if you're using empowered spell on a fireball, you might have more dice that are below average than you are allowed to reroll. 

Suppose your CHA mod is 4. 

Strictly speaking we need to consider each case separately, from 1 die below average to all 8, because conditioning on the number of dice you are rerolling changes the expected value of the remaining dice.

Dice that are rerolled have an expected value of 4.46; dice that aren't rerolled but could have been have an expected value of 5. Dice that aren't rerolled because we couldn't afford to reroll them have a really complicated expected value that depends on the number of other dice in this category, since we'll obviously reroll the lowest ones first.

The distribution of the number of dice, k, that we would want to reroll is just a binomial, with n = 8 and p = 1/2.

For k = 1 through 4, the expected value of the fireball is just:

k * 4.46 + (8 - k) * 5

For k = 5, the 5th die will usually be a 3 (probability nearly 87% there is at least one, from the Binomial(5,1/3)), but will sometimes be a 2 (probability nearly 13%). So ignoring the 0.4% chance that all 5 are 1s, the 5th die has an expected value of 0.87 * 3 + 0.13 * 2 = 2.87.

Then it gets hairier, since with k = 6, we need to consider the highest die and the second highest die separately...

To be honest, it gets complex enough at that point that it seems like just doing the simulation is the easiest way to go.


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## FrogReaver (Sep 29, 2019)

FrogReaver said:


> @Esker I need your help.  I want to calculate the damage of a BattleMaster fighter using no feats but precision attack and trip attack.  I've not mastered the art of calculating precision attack correctly since you figured out the correct way to do it.




For the 1 round this ended up being easier than I thought since I had as many dice as attacks.  If I hit I use trip.  If I miss I use precision.  The complicated part came from advantage and it wasn't that bad.


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## Esker (Sep 29, 2019)

FrogReaver said:


> @Esker I need your help.  I want to calculate the damage of a BattleMaster fighter using no feats but precision attack and trip attack.  I've not mastered the art of calculating precision attack correctly since you figured out the correct way to do it.




It's simpler if you're not trying to ration your dice and you just want to maximize this one turn. If you assume you have them all at the start of the combat, then you just use precision attack any time it might help. At level 6, you have 4d8 precision dice, so if you have 20 STR, we're assuming you need a natural 8 to hit, and so your chance to hit with precision attack becomes:

0.65 + 0.05 * 8/8 + 0.05 * 7/8 + 0.05 * 6/8 + 0.05 * 5/8 + 0.05 * 4/8 + 0.05 * 3/8 = 0.856


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## FrogReaver (Sep 29, 2019)

I'm impressed that a featless battlemaster was able to out damage all the other feated builds posted so far while keeping his bonus action free.  There's going to be a lot of potential on that chasis when we look at higher levels.


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## Esker (Sep 29, 2019)

With advantage, you have a (2k - 1)/400 chance of rolling any given value from 1 to 20. That gives you an 0.8775 chance of rolling an 8 or higher w/o precision, and with precision your chance becomes:

0.8775 + (2*7 - 1)/400 * 8/8 + (2*6 - 1)/400 * 7/8 + (2*5 - 1)/400 * 6/8 + (2*4 - 1)/400 * 5/8 + (2*3 - 1)/400 * 4/8 + (2*2 - 1)/400*3/8 = 0.97


----------



## Esker (Sep 29, 2019)

Wait, that was without GWM? Surely with the help of maneuvers, GWM is worth more than an ASI?


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## FrogReaver (Sep 29, 2019)

Esker said:


> Wait, that was without GWM? Surely with the help of maneuvers, GWM is worth more than an ASI?




Yea without GWM.  I play in a lot of featless games.  So I was curious how well a featless fighter could do.  I'm really impressed.

GWM should increase that number fairly significantly.  Half Orc didn't really add much.


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## FrogReaver (Sep 29, 2019)

The hardest part of calculating GWM effect will be calculating overall crit chance since you have an ever escalating crit chance per attack and GWM adds a bonus action attack on a crit.


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## Esker (Sep 29, 2019)

I got 68.6 for a featless half-orc BM. Could be small enough that you have a little rounding error I guess, since I did it assigning variables in code so the values should be exact... Or maybe one of us did something slightly off.


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## FrogReaver (Sep 29, 2019)

Esker said:


> I got 68.6 for a featless half-orc BM. Could be small enough that you have a little rounding error I guess, since I did it assigning variables in code so the values should be exact... Or maybe one of us did something slightly off.




Did you use a greatsword and GWF style and factor in the extra crit damage from half orc?


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## Esker (Sep 29, 2019)

FrogReaver said:


> Did you use a greatsword and GWF style and factor in the extra crit damage from half orc?




Yeah. So, 8 1/3 base weapon damage, 4.5 extra damage when hitting w/o precision attack, 8 1/3 damage after GWM rerolls, 4 1/6 extra damage from Savage Attack on crits, and an escalating chance of having advantage on the attack, based on having had at least one previous hit without precision attack.


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## Leatherhead (Sep 29, 2019)

So, would a Level two sorcerer using Quickened _Catapult_ (using an Acid vial, which presumably breaks) and following up with _Toll the Dead, _count for this list?

I'm mostly curious about using consumable items.

Though if they do count, perhaps using a flask of oil and then following up with _Create Bonfire_ would yield better results, as it does an automatic 5 damage. I'm not quite sure on the math for mixing a chance with a guarantied result.


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## FrogReaver (Sep 29, 2019)

Esker said:


> Yeah.




Maybe this will help.

1st Attack = 15.2
2nd Attack = 16.6
3rd Attack = 17.4
4th Attack  = 17.9

That's what I got for the average damage of each iterative attack including crits and all.


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## FrogReaver (Sep 29, 2019)

Leatherhead said:


> So, would a Level two sorcerer using Quickened _Catapult_ (using an Acid vial, which presumably breaks) and following up with _Toll the Dead, _count for this list?
> 
> I'm mostly curious about using consumable items.
> 
> Though if they do count, perhaps using a flask of oil and then following up with _Create Bonfire_ would yield better results, as it does an automatic 5 damage. I'm not quite sure on the math for mixing a chance with a guarantied result.




I'll list it.  I'll just make a note it uses consumable items.  I'm personally not going to use consumable items on my creations but if you are curious then go for it.  It's valuable information and after all is said and done I can always break them apart into more appropriate lists.


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## FrogReaver (Sep 29, 2019)

@Esker, when you used precision did you remove the +4.5 damage from trip attack?


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## FrogReaver (Sep 29, 2019)

@Leatherhead, there's one issue with your level 2 sorcerer.  You can't quicken till level 3.

Your catapult and acid vial would do 20.5 damage on a hit.  Hit rate 55%.

=11.2


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## Leatherhead (Sep 29, 2019)

FrogReaver said:


> @Leatherhead, there's one issue with your level 2 sorcerer. You can't quicken till level 3.



Well that's embarrassing! Shows me to get wake up and respond to a thread.


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## FrogReaver (Sep 29, 2019)

Leatherhead said:


> Well that's embarrassing! Shows me to get wake up and respond to a thread.




Though a divination wizard might be a lot better

=18.7


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## Esker (Sep 29, 2019)

FrogReaver said:


> Maybe this will help.
> 
> 1st Attack = 15.2
> 2nd Attack = 16.6
> ...




Hmm... my calculations agree on the 1st attack, but I get slightly more on each subsequent attack.

My cumulative chances that they are prone prior to each attack are:

0, 0.65, 0.8775, 0.957125

and I get 18.55 damage when attacking with advantage.


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## FrogReaver (Sep 29, 2019)

my chance of prone is the chance you hit*the chance you prone

so .65*.65 for them to be prone for 2nd attack.  Then 1-(1-.65*.65)^2 for the Third.  Then 1-(1-.65*.65)^3 for the last.

That would be the discrepancy it seems.


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## Esker (Sep 29, 2019)

Oh yes, I forgot to take into account the save vs trip attack. Thanks!

(When I fix that I get the same as you: 67.1)


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## Esker (Sep 29, 2019)

I get 70.4 replacing half-orc with human and adding GWM. Not as big a boost as I expected.

EDIT: strike that, I need to change precision attack values


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## FrogReaver (Sep 29, 2019)

Esker said:


> I get 70.4 replacing half-orc with human and adding GWM. Not as big a boost as I expected.
> 
> EDIT: strike that, I need to change precision attack values




Also factor in the bonus action attack from a crit.  Then there will be a small chance you have a battlemaster dice remaining to apply to that attack as well.


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## Esker (Sep 29, 2019)

Ok, I actually get 74.0 with GWM, but that doesn't include the BA attack after a crit yet.


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## FrogReaver (Sep 29, 2019)

I get the damage by the bonus action attack will be between +2.9 and +4.7.  Probably closer to the +2.9 as there's not a large chance for a dice remaining.

For the non -5/+10 fighter


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## Esker (Sep 29, 2019)

So I think (and tell me if you disagree) that we can ignore _when_ the bonus action attack happens, since there's nothing different about it than any other attack, and just focus on _whether_ it happens. So we have a chance of at least one crit, which is the chance we get a fifth attack, and then the cumulative chance that the enemy is prone after four attacks, and the damage we do with a fifth attack.

Assuming we use our maneuver dice on the first four attacks (which we should, since their value goes down with each subsequent attack), that leaves the fifth attack to be made at 0.40 base to hit with no extra damage, with possible advantage. It doesn't add a ton: there's a little better than a 20% chance that we get to make the attack at all, and since the extra attack doesn't benefit from trip or precision, it's only doing 11.6 damage on average when we do make it. So the value of that BA attack is only about 3 extra damage.


----------



## FrogReaver (Sep 29, 2019)

Esker said:


> So I think (and tell me if you disagree) that we can ignore _when_ the bonus action attack happens, since there's nothing different about it than any other attack, and just focus on _whether_ it happens. So we have a chance of at least one crit, which is the chance we get a fifth attack, and then the cumulative chance that the enemy is prone after four attacks, and the damage we do with a fifth attack.
> 
> Assuming we use our maneuver dice on the first four attacks (which we should, since their value goes down with each subsequent attack), that leaves the fifth attack to be made at 0.40 base to hit with no extra damage, with possible advantage. It doesn't add a ton: there's a little better than a 20% chance that we get to make the attack at all, and since the extra attack doesn't benefit from trip or precision, it's only doing 11.6 damage on average when we do make it. So the value of that BA attack is only about 3 extra damage.




There's a non-negligible chance that a dice doesn't get used each turn especially with the -5/+10 turned on.  With a 65% base chance to hit that becomes a 40% chance with -5/+10.  That means you needs  13 or higher to hit.  Even with a +8 from a precision dice you will still always miss when you roll 4 or lower.  That's a 20% chance for the first attack that you don't use a dice.  The 2nd attack that value will decrease some because you may have advantage and so on for the 3rd and 4th.  As such I'd estimate you have about a 50% chance you didn't use a dice and could use one on the BA attack.


----------



## Esker (Sep 29, 2019)

I guess you might want to save the die if they're already prone and you hit normally, so its neither creating a hit or giving you a chance of advantage later. In that case it gives you the opportunity to use precision attack on the last attack when you wouldn't otherwise be able to. Since precision attack is only increasing your chance to hit by 20-23%, it's only worth 0.23 * (8.33 + 15) = 5.4 extra damage if you save it, whereas using it on a trip attack even when they're already prone is buying you 4.5 at a minimum. So maybe saving it could buy you 1 more damage.


----------



## FrogReaver (Sep 29, 2019)

Esker said:


> I guess you might want to save the die if they're already prone and you hit normally, so its neither creating a hit or giving you a chance of advantage later. In that case it gives you the opportunity to use precision attack on the last attack when you wouldn't otherwise be able to. Since precision attack is only increasing your chance to hit by 20-23%, it's only worth 0.23 * (8.33 + 15) = 5.4 extra damage if you save it, whereas using it on a trip attack even when they're already prone is buying you 4.5 at a minimum. So maybe saving it could buy you 1 more damage.




I'm not thinking about saving it to try to increase it's effect.  I'm thinking that there's times in our sequence where using a dice will have no benefit - When you roll 4 or lower.


----------



## Esker (Sep 29, 2019)

FrogReaver said:


> There's a non-negligible chance that a dice doesn't get used each turn especially with the -5/+10 turned on.  With a 65% base chance to hit that becomes a 40% chance with -5/+10.  That means you needs  13 or higher to hit.  Even with a +8 from a precision dice you will still always miss when you roll 4 or lower.  That's a 20% chance for the first attack that you don't use a dice.  The 2nd attack that value will decrease some because you may have advantage and so on for the 3rd and 4th.  As such I'd estimate you have about a 50% chance you didn't use a dice and could use one on the BA attack.




Oh, yeah I guess if you miss by more than 8 you wouldn't use one.


----------



## FrogReaver (Sep 29, 2019)

Esker said:


> Oh, yeah I guess if you miss by more than 8 you wouldn't use one.




Yea, I'm thinking the net gain from the dice you may have remaining will be about +1 dmg.  So your +3 comes out to about +4.  Unless we get more accurate that's what I'm going to estimate it at.

So 78 Damage total.


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## Esker (Sep 29, 2019)

I get a 51.6% chance that that happens at least once in the first four attacks.


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## FrogReaver (Sep 29, 2019)

If we change GWM to Magic Initiate Hex then we get

79.9

Actually will be a little higher since I didn't factor crits into the hex damage

Scratch that, I still had half orc on there.


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## delph (Oct 3, 2019)

2lvl - Human fighter + sharpshooter + heavy crossbow + archery fighting style + action surge

2*(5,5 + 3 +10)_0.5 = 18,5 (plus some double chance to crit? 5,5_.05*2 = +0,55 if I'v done math well)


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## delph (Oct 3, 2019)

6lvl - Human fighter + sharpshooter + heavy crossbow + archery fighting style + action surge + Extra attack + Magic Inititate (hex) + DEX
4*(5,5+4+10+3,5)_0,6 = 55,2 + 4_(9*0,05)= 57

--battlemaster(precision) -  4*(5,5+4+10+3,5)_0,8 = 73,6  +4_(9*0,05)=74,8  and theoreticali little more (when you hit with base attack, you can use "more dmg maneover" dice (with crit much more dmg))

--samurai - cant use hex ( but have an advantage)



or
6lvl - Elven fighter samurai + sharpshooter + heavy crossbow + archery fighting style + action surge + Extra attack + Elven Accuraci (+1 dex)

4*(5,5+4+10)*?? = ??
really don't know how to calculate Attack with 3 dices and crits...


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## FrogReaver (Oct 4, 2019)

delph said:


> 2lvl - Human fighter + sharpshooter + heavy crossbow + archery fighting style + action surge
> 
> 2*(5,5 + 3 +10)_0.5 = 18,5 (plus some double chance to crit? 5,5_.05*2 = +0,55 if I'v done math well)




You can't fire heavy crossbow twice on your turn without crossbow expertise.  So it would be 17.5*(.55+.1-.25)_2 + 4.5_.05*2

= 17.5*0.4*2 + 4.5*0.05*2
=14.45


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## FrogReaver (Oct 4, 2019)

delph said:


> 6lvl - Human fighter + sharpshooter + heavy crossbow + archery fighting style + action surge + Extra attack + Magic Inititate (hex) + DEX
> 4*(5,5+4+10+3,5)_0,6 = 55,2 + 4_(9*0,05)= 57
> 
> --battlemaster(precision) -  4*(5,5+4+10+3,5)_0,8 = 73,6  +4_(9*0,05)=74,8  and theoreticali little more (when you hit with base attack, you can use "more dmg maneover" dice (with crit much more dmg))




Can't use heavy crossbow with multiple attacks.

That said it should be a very effective build and I will calculate it.

First the base damage = 4.5+4+10+3.5
Chance to crit = .05
Base chance to hit = (.6+.1-.25) = .45
Chance to hit (including precision) = 64.875%
Chance to hit without precision = 45%

=22*.64875*4 + .05*8*4 + 4.5*.45*4 +.05*4.5*4
=67.69


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## FrogReaver (Oct 4, 2019)

delph said:


> 6lvl - Elven fighter samurai + sharpshooter + heavy crossbow + archery fighting style + action surge + Extra attack + Elven Accuraci (+1 dex)
> 
> 4*(5,5+4+10)*?? = ??
> really don't know how to calculate Attack with 3 dices and crits...




(Same issue with heavy crossbow, replacing with longbow as in other calculations)

Calculating Chance to crit is easy.  Simply calculate the chance to not crit then subtract that from 1.  1-(1-chance to crit)^(number of dice rolled) = 1-(1-.05)^3.

Chance to hit is the same except you replace chance to crit as chance to hit.

So the damage will be

=18.5*(.833625)_4 + 4.5_.142625*4
= 64.3


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## FrogReaver (Oct 4, 2019)

Level 2 Variant Human Magic Initiate (Magic Missile) Fighter + GWF + Action Surge

=10.5 + 11.33*.55+.05*8.33
=17.1


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## delph (Oct 4, 2019)

Thanks for correct crossbow loading. I thought loading quality is valid only for extra attacks not for action surge.
And describing how to count with crits.


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## Esker (Oct 4, 2019)

delph said:


> Thanks for correct crossbow loading. I thought loading quality is valid only for extra attacks not for action surge.
> And describing how to count with crits.




No you're right about that. It works fine with action surge, so at level 2 you're fine. You just can't use extra attack with it, so by level 5 you'd want to switch to a longbow.


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## FrogReaver (Oct 4, 2019)

Esker said:


> No you're right about that. It works fine with action surge, so at level 2 you're fine. You just can't use extra attack with it, so by level 5 you'd want to switch to a longbow.




So weird I always read that wrong. I guess this is about the only situation it would matter


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## Esker (Oct 4, 2019)

FrogReaver said:


> So weird I always read that wrong. I guess this is about the only situation it would matter




You could also use Haste to attack twice with it. But if you're a fighter you have extra attack by then. If you were a rogue with a fighter dip, it might be relevant, I guess.


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## FrogReaver (Oct 5, 2019)

FrogReaver said:


> You can't fire heavy crossbow twice on your turn without crossbow expertise.  So it would be 17.5*(.55+.1-.25)_2 + 4.5_.05*2
> 
> = 17.5*0.4*2 + 4.5*0.05*2
> =14.45




Corrected


= 18.5*0.4*2 + 5.5*0.05*2
=15.4


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## FrogReaver (Oct 5, 2019)

So Martial Adept with trip and precision may be very promising for round 1 damage.  Working on calculating it for a level 2 fighter.  I think it will do more damage than magic initiate hex on the first round.


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## FrogReaver (Oct 5, 2019)

So I think I have the correct calculation for a level 2 fighter with martial adept.  I assumed using precision when you missed by 4 or less.  This could be adjusted but it should be pretty close.

Variant Human Martial Adept + GWF + Action Surge + Trip + Precision

=18.7

1.  14.83*0.55 + 11.83*.05
2.  11.33*0.55*0.55*.1625 + 8.33*0.0975*0.55*0.55
3.  0.55*0.45*0.55*11.33 + 0.55*0.45*0.05*8.33
4.  .1625*11.33
5.  0.2*0.55*11.33 + 0.2*0.05*8.33
6.  0.25*0.55*14.83 + 0.25*0.05*11.83

=sum(1 to 6)

@Esker will you validate this calculation?


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## FrogReaver (Oct 5, 2019)

An easier Martial Adept PC

Variant Human (Martial Adept) Paladin 2 + GWF + Divine Smite + Thundering Smite + Trip + Precision

=24.5

30.83*.55 + 27.33*.225 + 27.83*05


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## Esker (Oct 5, 2019)

So 1. is if you hit and use trip attack on the first attack, but then after that I'm not quite sure how you're breaking it down. Where does the 0.1625 come from, and why is there no 0.7975 anywhere for the to-hit chance when they're prone?


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## Esker (Oct 5, 2019)

1. Hit+trip attempt on 1st: 0.55*14.83 + 0.05*11.83
2. Hit w/ precision on 1st: 0.15*11.33
3. Hit on 2nd (prone):
0.55*0.55*0.7975*11.33 + 0.55*0.55*0.0975*8.33
4. Hit on 2nd (failed trip): 0.55*0.45*0.55*11.33+0.55*0.45*0.05*8.33
5. Hit on 2nd (used precision):
0.15*0.55*11.33+0.15*0.05*8.33
6. Hit on 2nd (missed 1st by > 4):
0.25*0.55*14.83 + 0.25*0.05*11.83
7. Hit on 2nd using precision:
0.25*0.15*11.33


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## FrogReaver (Oct 5, 2019)

Esker said:


> So 1. is if you hit and use trip attack on the first attack, but then after that I'm not quite sure how you're breaking it down. Where does the 0.1625 come from, and why is there no 0.7975 anywhere for the to-hit chance when they're prone?




I used .7975 in calcs though apparently not copied over correctly
.1625 is the chance the attack you use precision on is a hit

You are getting a slightly higher estimate than I am.  I'll have to look into it


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## Esker (Oct 5, 2019)

I get 0.15 for the precision chance to hit using a d6. 0.1625 with a d8


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## FrogReaver (Oct 5, 2019)

Esker said:


> I get 0.15 for the precision chance to hit using a d6. 0.1625 with a d8




doh!  I was using the normal d8


----------



## Esker (Oct 5, 2019)

I had 11.83 in a few places that should have been 11.33


----------



## FrogReaver (Oct 5, 2019)

Esker said:


> I had 11.83 in a few places that should have been 11.33




Yea I noticed that.  Still came out to 19.

I don't know what I had left out of mine but it isn't important as I agree with yours.  Will update the value.


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## FrogReaver (Oct 5, 2019)

FrogReaver said:


> An easier Martial Adept PC
> 
> Variant Human (Martial Adept) Paladin 2 + GWF + Divine Smite + Thundering Smite + Trip + Precision
> 
> ...




Updated to correct precision

= 23.1

= 30.83*.55 + 27.33*.175 + 27.83*05


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## FrogReaver (Oct 5, 2019)

Overall I'm very impressed with Martial Adept.  Much more impressive than I thought it would be.


----------



## delph (Oct 7, 2019)

FrogReaver said:


> Overall I'm very impressed with Martial Adept.  Much more impressive than I thought it would be.



But Martial adept is only 1d6 per short rest. Good for this math for 1st round, but for whole day using is better Magic initiate with Hex, it is possible to use it much more per battle.


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## FrogReaver (Oct 7, 2019)

delph said:


> But Martial adept is only 1d6 per short rest. Good for this math for 1st round, but for whole day using is better Magic initiate with Hex, it is possible to use it much more per battle.




If you are talking which is better there are alotnof factors. But even at level 2 you seem to be ignoring that martial adept can be used every short rest. Which is probably much more over the day than hex is going to gain you over a few more turns in 1 encounter.


----------



## delph (Oct 7, 2019)

FrogReaver said:


> If you are talking which is better there are alotnof factors. But even at level 2 you seem to be ignoring that martial adept can be used every short rest. Which is probably much more over the day than hex is going to gain you over a few more turns in 1 encounter.



It's tricky as almost everything. Sometimes it's better using this, sometimes those.  Martial adept will be really nice for BattleMaster if it changes dice to his dice (d8/10/12)


----------



## FrogReaver (Oct 8, 2019)

delph said:


> It's tricky as almost everything. Sometimes it's better using this, sometimes those.  Martial adept will be really nice for BattleMaster if it changes dice to his dice (d8/10/12)




Strangely I'd have predicted the opposite.  It's much better to have effects that stack.  1 extra superiority dice is nice but stacking hex + superiority dice is amazing!


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## Esker (Oct 8, 2019)

FrogReaver said:


> Strangely I'd have predicted the opposite.  It's much better to have effects that stack.  1 extra superiority dice is nice but stacking hex + superiority dice is amazing!




What's nice about that combination, IMO, is the ability to add to damage with different levels of granularity: Hex gives you extra damage for one key encounter per day, whereas superiority dice boosts your damage on individual key attacks. Together they give you some nice tactical flexibility that you don't get with either by itself.


----------



## delph (Oct 8, 2019)

Hex is nice, but when you have bigger dip in rogue, you really want to have more ripostes. But hex is nice too.


----------



## FrogReaver (Oct 8, 2019)

delph said:


> Hex is nice, but when you have bigger dip in rogue, you really want to have more ripostes. But hex is nice too.




We were talking about a fighter...


----------



## FrogReaver (Oct 16, 2019)

Any ideas on what level to build for next?


----------



## delph (Oct 16, 2019)

FrogReaver said:


> Any ideas on what level to build for next?



it could be anything. level 2 is well-going for Vuman War cleric, because he gets awesome feature in 2nd level. But many other classes have a good class feature on 3rd level. But 4th level will have feat (ASi) "for everyone" not just variant human...


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## Esker (Oct 16, 2019)

Well, we've done builds for every other tier, so how about tier 3?

Level 11 Human Battlemaster: Archery Style, 20 DEX, Magic Initiate (Hex), Sharpshooter, Action Surge, Precision Attack

6 attacks x (3.5 + 5 + 10 + 3.5) = 22 / hit
2 * 3.5 = 7 add'l damage / crit
0.65 + 0.10 - 0.25 + 0.05 * 5.5 = 0.775 to-hit

6 * (0.775 * 22 + 0.05 * 7) = *104.4*

(I know, technically you could run out of superiority dice before you run out of attacks, so the actual number but it's pretty unlikely (about 3% chance), wouldn't change the result that much, and accounting for it exactly makes the math a lot more complicated)


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## FrogReaver (Oct 17, 2019)

Esker said:


> Well, we've done builds for every other tier, so how about tier 3?
> 
> Level 11 Human Battlemaster: Archery Style, 20 DEX, Magic Initiate (Hex), Sharpshooter, Action Surge, Precision Attack
> 
> ...




Personally I'd go ahead and remove the estimated 3% to make it 101.3


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## FrogReaver (Oct 17, 2019)

Esker said:


> Well, we've done builds for every other tier, so how about tier 3?
> 
> Level 11 Human Battlemaster: Archery Style, 20 DEX, Magic Initiate (Hex), Sharpshooter, Action Surge, Precision Attack
> 
> ...




Just curious, why a 3.5 damage weapon?


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## Esker (Oct 17, 2019)

FrogReaver said:


> Just curious, why a 3.5 damage weapon?




Oh, hah, because I started out with Xbow Expert, then realized Hex was better for the nova metric. So switch that to a longbow.


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## FrogReaver (Oct 17, 2019)

Esker said:


> Oh, hah, because I started out with Xbow Expert, then realized Hex was better for the nova metric. So switch that to a longbow.




It also will be pretty easy to add in +5.5 damage from damage maneuver on hit.  That actually ups your damage considerably.


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## delph (Oct 24, 2019)

I had one idea for 2nd level, but found I'm short in bonus actions. 

VHuman Rogue, feat Charger -> move dash + attack action by BA +5 dmg, than cunning action, another dash, but hasn't next bonus attack (when I was founding it, I thought its "as part of dash you can make attack") ... 

so have 2d8 + 16 (and if there will by some companion 2d6 by sneak) will be great, but now it's not. so hot...


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## delph (Oct 24, 2019)

* 1d6 by sneak not 2d6


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## delph (Oct 24, 2019)

* 1d6 by sneak not 2d6


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## delph (Dec 5, 2019)

Vhuman - magic initiate (hex or hunters mark) - Wizard. Bonus Action - hex, Action - Magic missiles -> 3d4+3 + 3d6 = 21 dmg and no attack roll. Or am I wrong?  And two slots remain for doing it again next two turn.


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## delph (Dec 8, 2019)

delph said:


> Vhuman - magic initiate (hex or hunters mark) - Wizard. Bonus Action - hex, Action - Magic missiles -> 3d4+3 + 3d6 = 21 dmg and no attack roll. Or am I wrong?  And two slots remain for doing it again next two turn.



somwhere I read that hex doesn't stack with Magic Missiles, but hexblade curse does, so it could be 3d4+12 = 19,5 dmg... 
But my GM allowed it and I was stacking it together, so I had in 2nd round 3d4+12+3d6...


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## delphonso (Dec 9, 2019)

RAW, Hex only applies extra damage when you hit with an attack - Magic Missile is straight damage, not an attack roll, so I guess it wouldn't apply. Definitely up for interpretation, though.

Also, I don't think you can cast two spells in one turn.


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## delph (Dec 9, 2019)

delphonso said:


> RAW, Hex only applies extra damage when you hit with an attack - Magic Missile is straight damage, not an attack roll, so I guess it wouldn't apply. Definitely up for interpretation, though.
> 
> Also, I don't think you can cast two spells in one turn.



Hex is bonus action casting time. And if you can't use hex, you can use hexblade curse +2 dmg to each missile 3d4+9


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## delphonso (Dec 10, 2019)

From the section "Casting a Spell" in the PHB: "You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action. "

Hexblades curse would be a reliable source of damage then, instead.


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## delph (Mar 20, 2020)

Quick idea:
17lvl death cleric + 3 lvl sorcerer 

17th. lvl ability od death cleric Is improved reaper - can cast necrotic spell with one target to two targets...
Not sure about twin Spell metamagic. But if could be:

Inflict wounds from 9th slot 11d10 to two target from twined Spell And again by improved reaper. 4 targets or twice two targets. -> 44d10, Then empowerd Spell or quickened some spell else.

+11 Attack



Can you help me with it? Math behind empowerd spell or guickened another. +Some feats?


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## delph (Apr 2, 2020)

delph said:


> Quick idea:
> 17lvl death cleric + 3 lvl sorcerer
> 
> 17th. lvl ability od death cleric Is improved reaper - can cast necrotic spell with one target to two targets...
> ...



Cant't be done. Now I read carefully Sorcerers metamagic and font of magic. This "combo" will never have enough SP for this. It will have max 3 SP by 3 lvl of a sorcerer, and basic for twining 9th spellslot is 9 SP, and using empowered is much far behind this...


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## borg286 (May 18, 2020)

ForgReaver, would you mind linking each build to the post where it was introduced?  Compacting the justification for damage into a single line is insufficient and hard to read.

Personally I would have allowed the players 2 rounds and to take the average of both rounds. This would have allowed for a bit of buffing, but both are biased in some way. Personally I found sustained damage more helpful than nova as sustained damage pushed towards having resources later in the day. This is going to be difficult to model as some tables frequently have 1 encounter per day, where nova would be king, while others are closer to dungeon crawl where a nova build will have sacrificed endurance for the nova itself.  A way to get a mix would be that the build needs to explain what they do for 2 encounters for 2 rounds and they take the average or median of those 4 rounds. Average would bias towards nova, median would bias towards sustained damage.

You made reference to Damage Kings. As author of the DPR King Candidates thread in 4e I've had some experience doing this sort of thing.  You said you were not wanting players to simply one up eachother with a tweak that ends up being unplayable, yet the top entries in your list are one trick ponies nonetheless.  I found that you allow these tweaks and rank them all the same, then append the user's name on the entry.  The competition ended up being healthy for the optimization and community as new exploits were found.

Another problem I found with my DPR King Candidates was differing interpretations and cheese. Like you I realized there was no way to have the same rules apply to all builds. I found that labeling the cheese or side of an interpretation was helpful as many builds ended up relying on them.  I then added these labels as tags to the build so one could quickly filter out builds that wouldn't work at their table.  I often had to make DM-like calls on some of these interpretations. Don't be afraid to do so here.

I noticed you didn't account for area damage.  According to your rules I could just make the assumption that I'm dealing with 21 HP mooks all in a giant ball and wreck the rankings. You would counter saying that is not an assumption that would be universal, yet I've cited my assumption. The way I tried to account for this was to separate out a build's single target damage from their area damage and annotate the per-target area damage with the area it applies to, then cite the additional single target damage. I was unable to find a satisfactory conversion from area to targets. For ranking it I had to guesstimate.

Lastly have you considered having a section dedicated to guiding people through the DPR analysis.  Advantage and Critting was one thing that many didn't find intuitive to calculate.  I would go so far as normalizing for level by dividing the expected damage by some HP(level). I called this KPR (kills per round) and found it helpful putting builds on the same platform.


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## FrogReaver (May 19, 2020)

borg286 said:


> ForgReaver, would you mind linking each build to the post where it was introduced?  Compacting the justification for damage into a single line is insufficient and hard to read.




Good idea.  I'd never considered it.  I will try to do that at some point.



> Personally I would have allowed the players 2 rounds and to take the average of both rounds. This would have allowed for a bit of buffing, but both are biased in some way.




I guess the most important factor for me was that Damage Now > Damage later.  Damage on round 1 is worth more (in general) than damage on round 2 because if you do the damage now then the enemy has a greater chance of already being dead and thus not getting it's round 1 action.  In short, I don't think it's the fairest comparison to compare damage on round 1 directly to damage on round 2.



> Personally I found sustained damage more helpful than nova as sustained damage pushed towards having resources later in the day. This is going to be difficult to model as some tables frequently have 1 encounter per day, where nova would be king, while others are closer to dungeon crawl where a nova build will have sacrificed endurance for the nova itself.  A way to get a mix would be that the build needs to explain what they do for 2 encounters for 2 rounds and they take the average or median of those 4 rounds. Average would bias towards nova, median would bias towards sustained damage.




If I was going to do that comparison I would look at total damage dealt in an adventuring day - which would still have the damage now vs damage later issue.  In fact in addition to that it would then need to be defined what a standard adventuring day actually is in 5e.  What happens when you do that is you get something that's nearly meaningless for many players.

Besides, early on in the edition at-will and nearly-at-all damages were pretty solved problems.  Battlemasters (with precision and trip) are primarily the only complicated piece to calculate in those regards (and they get even harder the more rounds into the fight you go)

Speaking on this topic a little more, the assumptions in 5e are no where near as tight as they were in 4e.  That makes more "complete" comparisons in 5e less beneficial.



> You made reference to Damage Kings. As author of the DPR King Candidates thread in 4e I've had some experience doing this sort of thing.  You said you were not wanting players to simply one up eachother with a tweak that ends up being unplayable, yet the top entries in your list are one trick ponies nonetheless.




I tend to guide toward that goal that but not strictly enforce the suggestion except for extreme outliers.  I'm curious what builds you view as 1 trick ponies?



> I found that you allow these tweaks and rank them all the same, then append the user's name on the entry.  The competition ended up being healthy for the optimization and community as new exploits were found.




Nearly every "exploit" is known.  Most of them involve some combination of Action Surge, Divine Smite, Advantage, Superiority Dice and feats.  This thread isn't really to find new exploits, but more to rank the combinations of the ones that everyone already knows exists.



> Another problem I found with my DPR King Candidates was differing interpretations and cheese. Like you I realized there was no way to have the same rules apply to all builds. I found that labeling the cheese or side of an interpretation was helpful as many builds ended up relying on them.  I then added these labels as tags to the build so one could quickly filter out builds that wouldn't work at their table.  I often had to make DM-like calls on some of these interpretations. Don't be afraid to do so here.




That was one of the things I hated most about the 4e DPR King threads.  That nearly everything that ended up there was a cheese build.  That said - 5e really doesn't have much cheese and there's very few rules interpretations that drastically differ.  It's a pretty straightforward edition for _most_ things.



> I noticed you didn't account for area damage.  According to your rules I could just make the assumption that I'm dealing with 21 HP mooks all in a giant ball and wreck the rankings. You would counter saying that is not an assumption that would be universal, yet I've cited my assumption. The way I tried to account for this was to separate out a build's single target damage from their area damage and annotate the per-target area damage with the area it applies to, then cite the additional single target damage. I was unable to find a satisfactory conversion from area to targets. For ranking it I had to guesstimate.




IMO.  Area Damage has too many variables to even remotely properly account for in something like this.



> Lastly have you considered having a section dedicated to guiding people through the DPR analysis.  Advantage and Critting was one thing that many didn't find intuitive to calculate.  I would go so far as normalizing for level by dividing the expected damage by some HP(level). I called this KPR (kills per round) and found it helpful putting builds on the same platform.




KPR worked well for 4e.  Have you considered that it may not work well for 5e?  Have you considered that there's far fewer standardized assumptions in 5e than there were in 4e.

Typically where I diverged from a 4e Damage Kings style thread was done for considered reasons.

Damage Calculation for multiple attacks over a round and limited use per attack abilities gets really complicated.  I'm not sure that a guide could adequately explain that.  I suppose crits could be explained but I figure that someone interested in this kind of thread will either know or ask how to calculate something they don't know how to.


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## borg286 (May 19, 2020)

FrogReaver said:


> I guess the most important factor for me was that Damage Now > Damage later.  Damage on round 1 is worth more (in general) than damage on round 2 because if you do the damage now then the enemy has a greater chance of already being dead and thus not getting it's round 1 action.  In short, I don't think it's the fairest comparison to compare damage on round 1 directly to damage on round 2.
> 
> If I was going to do that comparison I would look at total damage dealt in an adventuring day - which would still have the damage now vs damage later issue.  In fact in addition to that it would then need to be defined what a standard adventuring day actually is in 5e.  What happens when you do that is you get something that's nearly meaningless for many players.



I agree that Damage Now > Damage later, but having no arena for the rest of the day's attacks closes you and followers of this thread from these "many players"  Just as players that have 8 encounters per day with 3 short rests may be in a minority due to the large variation from table to table, this equally extends to 1 encounter days.  The thing you have going for you is that everybody has a first round of the day with varying degrees of risk on the character's health.  This may well be the largest minority you can safely determine standards for. On the other hand there have been plenty of threads polling people for the number of rounds they have. Have you considered extending the time limits to be the average from that poll?  Candidates would need to provide what they do for the remaining rounds. You would then have 2 lists: round 1 kings, and 5 round average kings.  I'd wager to say that you'll get quite different orderings.  This increases tedium for you and authors of builds, but provides readers with information that is more applicable to them.




FrogReaver said:


> I tend to guide toward that goal that but not strictly enforce the suggestion except for extreme outliers.  I'm curious what builds you view as 1 trick ponies?



Fighters, and Variant Humans, don't contribute much to usefulness outside of their niche (fighters get 1 skill outside the optimal Perception, Human's extra feat is almost always used for their 1 trick w/o concern for usefulness past their target level).  This puts tons of pressure on their background to carry the load of use outside combat. Thankfully fighter's Archetype means they'll be useful for each encounter but not as much if they are using a weak weapon.

Guided Strike  is literally 2x per day. War Preist makes him MAD (Str, Con, Wis) so the extra attacks mean 2-3 extra single attacks per day. These become worthless at higher levels.
Lucky Smiting Paladin blows spells and dice in round 1. Due to using Short Swords his damage drops off after expending his slots on smites.
Catapult Wizard has epitomized glass cannon. Thankfully wizard spellbook makes him less of a 1 trick pony, but he can pull this off only once then has to wait till he's in a city to buy some more acid.
Magic Initiate (Magic Missile), that is what I call overfitting for level 2.
I could go on.
It comes with the terrain of Damage Kings that you'll get glass cannons as the monsters they fight are a block of tofu. The fact that it doesn't have HP means you'll get candidates that frequently do overkill damage. KPR does a little bit to help people see that "he'd dead jim" when the KPR > 1. But as you pointed out, the variance in 5e means that the party could face a higher CR rating, but just fewer total monsters. Thus there is a place for these glass cannons.





FrogReaver said:


> Nearly every "exploit" is known.  Most of them involve some combination of Action Surge, Divine Smite, Advantage, Superiority Dice and feats.  This thread isn't really to find new exploits, but more to rank the combinations of the ones that everyone already knows exists.
> 
> That was one of the things I hated most about the 4e DPR King threads.  That nearly everything that ended up there was a cheese build.  That said - 5e really doesn't have much cheese and there's very few rules interpretations that drastically differ.  It's a pretty straightforward edition for _most_ things.



From the looks of it, you've got as many candidates as I had when I was about 10% through the span of the DPR King Candidates lifetime. I didn't have that many things that DMs would call cheese at that milestone.  The Sorlock being similar to the frost cheese in 4e as both were in the PHB from the start, which optimizes for the opposite of the 1 encounter day. Biasing towards this end and accounting for more than 1 target you'd see more of these builds instead.
In case this grows as large as mine did, I bet you'll see more arguments about the fine points with no good consensus. On the other hand tweets from the devs seem to quiet people down, which I didn't have when working with the DPR Kings.




FrogReaver said:


> IMO.  Area Damage has too many variables to even remotely properly account for in something like this.



Then please be clear about this in your first post.  It would be nice if you had a FAQ where you state why you're not accounting for area damage, multiple rounds, multiple short rests, encounter 2, HP, secondary enemy proximity to the first and so forth.  Area damage is just one thing that abides by the rules you posted yet I don't see any build that shoots for area damage arguing that there is bound to be 3 enemies somewhere on the map that a burning hands would capture. It doesn't matter if I have to wade through 5 opportunity attacks to get there, this is about the damage, and the rules don't distinguish between the first and secondary targets, therefore I add their damage up.




FrogReaver said:


> Typically where I diverged from a 4e Damage Kings style thread was done for considered reasons.
> 
> Damage Calculation for multiple attacks over a round and limited use per attack abilities gets really complicated.  I'm not sure that a guide could adequately explain that.  I suppose crits could be explained but I figure that someone interested in this kind of thread will either know or ask how to calculate something they don't know how to.



I agree that accounting for Lucky, and "if you miss then" is beyond the scope of a beginner's guide. At least a note that lets people know that DPR accounts for to-hit chance by multiplying the chance to hit by the average damage on a hit. You're probably right that most people would intuitivly understand this, but I've seen enough people fall into the trap of average damage = DPR = expected damage. I've seen aDPR but don't know if it is universally understood to take hit chance into account. Your rules imply but could do with a few more words to be explicit.


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## Benjamin Olson (May 19, 2020)

So one thing I find exploitable and I don't think mentioned here (or generally enough when building ridiculous, white-room multiclass monstrosities) is the Shadow Blade spell. While the base 2d8 damage weapon is cool but nothing to base a build around, cast it at third level and you can bump it up to 3d8, 5th level will take it to 4d8, and 7th 5d8. Fill out a level 11 Eldritch Knight with some sort of full spellcaster and you can eventually be action surging up to 6 attacks with a 4d8 weapon. And it gets advantage in dim light, something that is not exactly rare. Do it as a Dexy Elf and you can throw Elven accuracy on top of that advantage.

It's not generally particularly amazing because it is a melee weapon that requires concentration, is mostly available to characters who should stay out of combat anyway, and even melee warlocks aren't interested because it can't be a pact weapon. Basically it's there for Arcane Tricksters and Bladesingers. And the latter need to use their first bonus action to bladesing, while the prior don't get the spell slots or extra attacks to really amp it up.

But any build that can manage to both upcast it to 5th or 7th level and put it in the hands of someone who can make a serious number of separate attacks takes it to another level. Get enough enemies crowded around a Hunter-Ranger with Whirlwind Attack and some sort of absurd Sorcerer or Wizard multiclass and you'll be the first person to ever give Paladins d8 envy.

I'm sure the math comes out higher for all sorts of things, but for those of you who have grown bored with the typical exploits, it might be a spicy new flavor. And, of course, it can be married with sneak attack and/or divine smiting.


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## FrogReaver (May 20, 2020)

borg286 said:


> I agree that Damage Now > Damage later,




Then please act like it.



> but having no arena for the rest of the day's attacks closes you and followers of this thread from these "many players"  Just as players that have 8 encounters per day with 3 short rests may be in a minority due to the large variation from table to table, this equally extends to 1 encounter days.




No such arena will provide an accurate enough picture to be useful as all arenas leave out too many players typical situations.  And then we come right back to the damage now vs damage later issue.

As an extreme example: consider a character doing 100 dmg in round 1 and 0 dmg each subsequent round till round 4.  Now consider a character doing 100 damage on round 4 but 0 damage on each round preceding that.  Both characters have done 100 damage over 4 rounds.  Yet 1 is clearly superior.  But what if the 100 damage on round 4 was replaced by 120 damage.  Which is the better option?  What if it was replaced by 200?  Which is the better option.

In short looking at total damage dealt over X rounds is a naïve way of looking at things because it doesn't just matter the total, but also the distribution over those rounds - and the simple fact is - at this juncture we have no direct way of comparing damage on this round to damage on a subsequent round.



> The thing you have going for you is that everybody has a first round of the day with varying degrees of risk on the character's health.  This may well be the largest minority you can safely determine standards for. On the other hand there have been plenty of threads polling people for the number of rounds they have. Have you considered extending the time limits to be the average from that poll?




And that proposal just isn't going to be accurate.  I think the biggest problem is that you've missed most of the optimization discussion over the years.  So maybe a recap.

We started out looking heavily at at-will damage.
Then we started extended that out to near at-will damage.
Then we modified that a bit and started trying to define a standard adventuring day and make evaluations based on that.
The problem we find is that adventuring days, and ratios of short rests to long rests to combat encounters to length of combat encounters all greatly varies from DM to DM and campaign to campaign.

So if you really want something similar to what you are suggesting you are probably 1-2 years late.  Those analysises while moving us forward still failed to give a full picture and that's because of the varied ways in which 5e is played.  So instead of trying to make something so complex to account for everything - which usually ends up being worthless as it doesn't actually correspond to anyones actual game - instead I'm looking at something a bit simpler that can apply to all games.

Nova damage in 5e is one of those things that really hasn't been explored much till now.



> Candidates would need to provide what they do for the remaining rounds. You would then have 2 lists: round 1 kings, and 5 round average kings.  I'd wager to say that you'll get quite different orderings.  This increases tedium for you and authors of builds, but provides readers with information that is more applicable to them.




Not just tedium.  It goes back to the damage now vs damage later issue.  We have no mechanism to compare damages between different rounds.  Which is why in this thread I'm looking at the Nova aspects.  Because they can all be done on the first round by any character.  Because the at-will, semi at-will, daily damage stuff has already been explored and still didn't take us where we needed to be.



> Fighters, and Variant Humans, don't contribute much to usefulness outside of their niche (fighters get 1 skill outside the optimal Perception, Human's extra feat is almost always used for their 1 trick w/o concern for usefulness past their target level).  This puts tons of pressure on their background to carry the load of use outside combat. Thankfully fighter's Archetype means they'll be useful for each encounter but not as much if they are using a weak weapon.




It's hard to fault a build for something that extends to all builds of a given class.



> Guided Strike  is literally 2x per day. War Preist makes him MAD (Str, Con, Wis) so the extra attacks mean 2-3 extra single attacks per day. These become worthless at higher levels.




And yet, after you've used that ability you are still a cleric which is one of the more versatile classes in the game.



> Lucky Smiting Paladin blows spells and dice in round 1. Due to using Short Swords his damage drops off after expending his slots on smites.




And after that he's still a paladin with spell slots he can use, with lay on hands, with a channel divinity, etc.  Not really a 1 trick pony, right?



> Catapult Wizard has epitomized glass cannon. Thankfully wizard spellbook makes him less of a 1 trick pony, but he can pull this off only once then has to wait till he's in a city to buy some more acid.




And there you have it.  Wizard's aren't 1 trick ponies.



> Magic Initiate (Magic Missile), that is what I call overfitting for level 2.
> I could go on.




So far you've not listed any build here that is actually anywhere near being a 1 trick pony.  The closest was the fighter - but sting is taken away because all fighters are essentially the same in that respect.



> It comes with the terrain of Damage Kings that you'll get glass cannons as the monsters they fight are a block of tofu. The fact that it doesn't have HP means you'll get candidates that frequently do overkill damage. KPR does a little bit to help people see that "he'd dead jim" when the KPR > 1. But as you pointed out, the variance in 5e means that the party could face a higher CR rating, but just fewer total monsters. Thus there is a place for these glass cannons.




Well that and damage gets split up a lot more than it did in 4e - meaning even a KPR of 2 doesn't mean you are wasting a bunch since it typically means you will kill 2 enemies instead of 1 in 5e, which didn't happen so much in 4e.



> From the looks of it, you've got as many candidates as I had when I was about 10% through the span of the DPR King Candidates lifetime. I didn't have that many things that DMs would call cheese at that milestone.




I expect as higher level builds are explored we will see more as there's just more workable combinations.



> The Sorlock being similar to the frost cheese in 4e as both were in the PHB from the start, which optimizes for the opposite of the 1 encounter day. Biasing towards this end and accounting for more than 1 target you'd see more of these builds instead.
> In case this grows as large as mine did, I bet you'll see more arguments about the fine points with no good consensus. On the other hand tweets from the devs seem to quiet people down, which I didn't have when working with the DPR Kings.




Good points



> Then please be clear about this in your first post.  It would be nice if you had a FAQ where you state why you're not accounting for area damage, multiple rounds, multiple short rests, encounter 2, HP, secondary enemy proximity to the first and so forth.  Area damage is just one thing that abides by the rules you posted yet I don't see any build that shoots for area damage arguing that there is bound to be 3 enemies somewhere on the map that a burning hands would capture. It doesn't matter if I have to wade through 5 opportunity attacks to get there, this is about the damage, and the rules don't distinguish between the first and secondary targets, therefore I add their damage up.




Typically stating why just leads people to argue about the why.



> I agree that accounting for Lucky, and "if you miss then" is beyond the scope of a beginner's guide. At least a note that lets people know that DPR accounts for to-hit chance by multiplying the chance to hit by the average damage on a hit. You're probably right that most people would intuitivly understand this, but I've seen enough people fall into the trap of average damage = DPR = expected damage. I've seen aDPR but don't know if it is universally understood to take hit chance into account. Your rules imply but could do with a few more words to be explicit.




I have faith that if someone calculates something wrong someone here will check it at some point and it will get corrected and them educated.


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## FrogReaver (May 20, 2020)

@borg286

My biggest issue right now with your approach is that you are coming into something with the assumption that every evaluation should be done the same way as it was in 4e and then trying to push for things created by others to turn into what you did in 4e. 

So I will say this.  If you want to make a 4e style Damage Kings thread then feel free.  That's not something I am super interested in participating in.  But don't come in here and try to force changes on this thread just because you haven't considered that the way I'm doing this may actually be better for 5e.


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## FrogReaver (May 20, 2020)

I'm wanting to get an entry on this chart for conjure animals.  Thoughts on the highest DPR animals to summon for Nova turn?

I'm looking at wolves.

8 wolves with pact tactics summoned around an enemy will do

[7*.7975+5*.0975]*8 = 48.6 DPR

Not to Shabby, and has the potential to last multiple rounds in the encounter.


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## borg286 (May 20, 2020)

There is also the Oil of Purple Worm and OathBow.  There are no rules against magic weapons, but would likely be frowned upon as 5e allows for a no magic item game, which is what most builds use as a baseline despite most groups not playing that way. Is an uncommon magic item acceptable


FrogReaver said:


> @borg286
> 
> My biggest issue right now with your approach is that you are coming into something with the assumption that every evaluation should be done the same way as it was in 4e and then trying to push for things created by others to turn into what you did in 4e.
> 
> So I will say this.  If you want to make a 4e style Damage Kings thread then feel free.  That's not something I am super interested in participating in.  But don't come in here and try to force changes on this thread just because you haven't considered that the way I'm doing this may actually be better for 5e.



True, this thread is titles appropriately for limiting the scope away from consistent damage. It wasn't my intention to make you make changes and return to the DPR kings that you explicitly mentioned you wanted to avoid. I was simply offering some things I learned as I nurtured that thread through its life. Seems you took that as me trying to force you, sorry I came across as pushy. Carry on.


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## FrogReaver (May 20, 2020)

borg286 said:


> There is also the Oil of Purple Worm and OathBow.  There are no rules against magic weapons, but would likely be frowned upon as 5e allows for a no magic item game, which is what most builds use as a baseline despite most groups not playing that way. Is an uncommon magic item acceptable




A disclaimer on magic items would be good.  The reason it's not there and no one has really used magic items is because most everyone on this forum already follows the default assumption that magic items don't get factored in to any optimization discussions.

I think the only item based build listed is someone using catapult and alcehmists fire or something like that.  A very low end consumable item (not sure it even counts as magical though).  

That said, I recommend avoiding permanent magical items and poisons and such.  Something unique using a very low tier consumable item that couldn't be simply added on many other builds to increase damage seems like the sweet spot to me.



> True, this thread is titles appropriately for limiting the scope away from consistent damage. It wasn't my intention to make you make changes and return to the DPR kings that you explicitly mentioned you wanted to avoid. I was simply offering some things I learned as I nurtured that thread through its life. Seems you took that as me trying to force you, sorry I came across as pushy. Carry on.




Apologies I took you wrong.  Advice is appreciated.  It's just that you started sounding more like, "we should do this because it would be better!" instead of, "why did you choose to do it the way you have" or "did you ever think about X".  I'm sure you didn't mean to come across that way, but that is how it sounded.


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## FrogReaver (May 20, 2020)

Level 6 Tempest Cleric Shatter + Destructive Wrath

32*.6+(32/2)*.4 = 25.6 DPR


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## FrogReaver (May 20, 2020)

Level 6:

VHuman (lucky) Tempest Cleric 2 Sorcerer 4 Chromatic Orb + Destructive Wrath + Quicken Firebolt

40*.84+40*.0975+11*.85+11*.0975 = 47.8 DPR


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## FrogReaver (Mar 27, 2021)

Wanted to add a new Level 6 entry.

Druid: any subclass

Use conjure animals to summon 8 Giant Poisonous Snakes

[.55*(6.5+(.4*10.5+.6*10.5/2)]+.05*2.5]*8 = 61.94 DPR


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## FrogReaver (Mar 27, 2021)

Invalid Combination.


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## FrogReaver (Sep 23, 2021)

I've got a new level 6 setup that seems to outperform everything so far.  Still computing the final Damage numbers with everything accounted for but it's likely going to break 100.  I've already got it to 99 turn 1 DPR and just have to figure out the potential impact of superiority dice on the GWM bonus action attack - should be enough to push it over 100.  Computation is very complicated.  I'm listing at 99 on front page for now.

Variant Human (GWM), GWF, -5/+10, Lucky, 18 Str, Trip Attack, Precision Attack


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## Hohige (Sep 23, 2021)

FrogReaver said:


> Wanted to add a new Level 6 entry.
> 
> Druid: any subclass
> 
> ...



Except you can't choose the creature and the creature's CR.
It can be 8 chicken.


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## FrogReaver (Sep 23, 2021)

Hohige said:


> Except you can't choose the creature and the creature's CR.
> It can be 8 chicken.



Read rules of competition.



FrogReaver said:


> *Rules:  *
> 1.  Use point buy for character creation
> 2.  +3 in your attack stat mod will be 55% chance to hit.  +4 will be 60% chacne to hit.  +5 will be 65% chance to hit.
> 3.  Crits are recommended to be accounted for but not required.
> ...


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