# Off to see the Wizards: The day that WotC showed me D&D 5th Edition



## thegrognard

I just heard 4E die . ......


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## kitsune9

On one hand, interesting announcement. On the other hand, kind of underwhelming since all of us knew that 5E was coming since the return of Monte Cook.


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## TheAuldGrump

But now it is official - it does make a difference.

Now entirely new areas of scurrilous gossip have been opened! 

Really though, wait, and information will come.

The Auld Grump


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## I'm A Banana

Really cool story! I'm very glad ENWorld has their own WotC media liason.


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## Horacio

So D&D 5th is coming !

It seems a good moment to come back to EN World... some 12 years after the first time...


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## Mercurius

Exciting stuff - I'm glad they are going this route (open playtest, D&D for all, best of all editions, etc).


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## Jawsh

Woo! Bring on codename Ixitxachitl!


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## RangerWickett

You kinda buried the lead, man. "I GOT TO PLAY FIFTH EDITION ALREADY NEENER NEENER" should have been the first paragraph.


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## pedr

So does the mention of the GenCon rumours mean that WotC had planned to announce the development towards an open playtest of a new edition/revision at GenCon and _that_ was the announcement which was pulled at the last minute?


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## nbnmare

Didn't you just breach the NDA on mechanics by revealing that 5th Edition has clerics?


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## Therise

And suddenly, 4E became much cheaper as the masses cart their books down to used bookstores.


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## possum

Interesting.  I've enjoyed pretty much every edition of D&D that I've played, but 3e more.  I'd love to see what 5e does.  That said, I'm somewhat anxious to see what the RAE will be for Faerun this edition...


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## Agamon

My guess of the code name is Inverness.  This is cool, looking forward to more info.


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## ashockney

I LOVE IT!

I'm thrilled on a number of fronts, and I'd like to articulate them.

1) COURAGE - to admit that the brand is worth walking away from 4e
2) Communication - what a way to make an announcement!  About damn time!  When 4e was announced, after being specifically told it WOULD NOT BE, I had to "call in sick" to work to drive unexpectedly to GenCon to attend.  I'm not at a point in my career where I really consider a move like this, "ok".  But I am really passionate about my hobby, and want to participate.
3) COMMUNITY - whether you believe RSD or not, building a community around our hobby is an AWESOME thing.  It's part of what made ENWorld great from the very beginning.
4) MONTE AND MIKE - are you kidding?  This is gonna be awesome!
5) SOCIAL MEDIA - Facebook, Twitter, and the online forum community.  This has potential.
6) FEEDBACK - jury is still out on this one, but it looks like a good setup.
7) EXCITEMENT - it's been a few years since I was excited to play some D&D, and right now, I'm pretty damn excited.  Bring it on!


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## Mark CMG

Gaming Tonic said:


> Well, colorspray me stunned (. . .)





Nice turn of phrase.


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## Nemesis Destiny

ashockney said:


> I LOVE IT!
> 
> I'm thrilled on a number of fronts, and I'd like to articulate them.
> 
> 1) COURAGE - to admit that the brand is worth walking away from 4e



Where from that did you get this particular notion?


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## ssspaladin

Part of me wonders whether this is simply WotC's closing the barn door after the horse has run away, but there are good people involved in this project and they appear to have a firm understanding of the previous edition's shortcomings in terms of testing and marketing. I have signed up for the playtest and am reserving judgement until I see more, but there is reason for both optimism and pessimism. Let's keep our fingers crossed that WotC can save the brand and not alienate their loyalists all over again...


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## monster_slayer

With Monte Cook involved I be be very interested to see what developes.


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## ssspaladin

thegrognard said:


> I just heard 4E die . ......




As I doubt there will be much market for used 4E books I am contemplating holding a Viking funeral for mine and inviting my friends to watch.


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## Remathilis

ssspaladin said:


> As I doubt there will be much market for used 4E books I am contemplating holding a Viking funeral for mine and inviting my friends to watch.




I'll keep my five 4e books; they bookend nicely with the 7 1e books I never used either. 

Its the two bookshelves of 2e and 3e material in between...


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## cthulhu_duck

"The Forgotten Realms will be supported from the start, and a video game art studio from China has been hired to fully detail the Realms."

Interesting.  Is there existing art for D&D or Magic which has been done by video game art studios?


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## noffham

So, the cover of the playtest document didn't say "To Serve Man" did it??


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## Gaming Tonic

cthulhu_duck said:


> Interesting.  Is there existing art for D&D or Magic which has been done by video game art studios?




I wasn't made aware if they company had or was producing anything else for WotC.  As soon as I can find out and if I can get a sample you will see it here.

I also have some information I have just received but will save for a bit later about what this means for the Virtual Table but you have to keep checking back for that as well.


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## Roland55

*You Learn Something ...*

I just learned something about myself.

Even at this advanced age -- even after 35+ years with an ever-changing game system -- I can still get excited.

Whatever it turns out to be, I'll be there to try it out.  I'd really like to see them pull a rabbit out of the WOTC hat and please everyone -- OK, most everyone.

Best of luck to the entire WOTC Crew.  Which, naturally, really means best of luck to all of us.


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## Ainamacar

If the internal name isn't "Illithid" I'll eat a virtual hat.  Unless the designers' love of snark far surpasses expectation and they too decided to call it "Inevitable", in which case I'm expecting a Marut on the cover of the MM.


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## noodle fish mice

I am upset. "Fifth ed" is much more cumbersome to say than "fourth ed".


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## Mad Hamish

TheAuldGrump said:


> But now it is official - it does make a difference.
> 
> Now entirely new areas of scurrilous gossip have been opened!
> 
> Really though, wait, and information will come.




I don't believe that's allowed


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## kitsune9

Therise said:


> And suddenly, 4E became much cheaper as the masses cart their books down to used bookstores.




I'll be collecting when they go to the bargain bin.


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## Bavix

I have to admit that I'm very excited about 5E. I've completely stopped playing 4E but I find myself missing D&D. If WotC can create a very simple system that lets me run the adventures I want to run, I'm in 100%.


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## possum

kitsune9 said:


> I'll be collecting when they go to the bargain bin.




Heh, same here.


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## AntlerDruid

ssspaladin said:


> As I doubt there will be much market for used 4E books I am contemplating holding a Viking funeral for mine and inviting my friends to watch.





I want to burn my 4E books as an offering to the lovely Lolth 


So I guess this means Mystra WILL be alive again!  So we can just forget that the Spellplague never happened?!  <cheer>


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## Walking Dad

nbnmare said:


> Didn't you just breach the NDA on mechanics by revealing that 5th Edition has clerics?



This is exactly what I thought, too.

But he didn't say "class" nor mentioned a "race". Another hint?


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## Walking Dad

ssspaladin said:


> As I doubt there will be much market for used 4E books I am contemplating holding a Viking funeral for mine and inviting my friends to watch.



Not sure...

if they cancel DDI and there are some 4e fans who used it nearly exclusively before, then there will be some demand to get their rules "back".


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## SephirothduLac

I'm not excited. I'm terrified. This is the same company that waited until the maker of the game died so they could release the tripe they call 4th. No wonder everyone I know ran to Pathfinder at the drop of a hat. The company is tanking the name of D&D and now hoping to sway older gamers back they pull this crap. It's a lie plain and simple. They did the same thing when they tried to bring back Dark Sun and Ravenloft. I'll check it out but Wizards has a lot to prove to us. It better be a labor of love or I'll never buy another WotC product as long as I live.


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## Walking Dad

Pathfinder is more "Gygaxian"? Or what was the point of mentioning another company's game?


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## Thornir Alekeg

Ainamacar said:


> If the internal name isn't "Illithid" I'll eat a virtual hat.  Unless the designers' love of snark far surpasses expectation and they too decided to call it "Inevitable", in which case I'm expecting a Marut on the cover of the MM.




Illithid was my immediate thought (as opposed to an immediate action) as well.  Makes sense since WotC says they want to feed off of our brains to help make the new iteration.


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## Kid Charlemagne

cthulhu_duck said:


> "The Forgotten Realms will be supported from the start, and a video game art studio from China has been hired to fully detail the Realms."
> 
> Interesting.  Is there existing art for D&D or Magic which has been done by video game art studios?




This was probably the most unusual/interesting piece for me - it implies a pretty high level of online support, since I'm sure they wouldn't use digital art of that sort in the books.


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## ssampier

Well, we kinda expected this. I expect them to wait until GenCon '12 for the announcement though.

This announcement has me interested and little excited. I normally am nervous for new edition. I was in the 3.0 era and 4.0 era. I was just a wee lad in the 2.0 era 

I think some flaws of 4e can easily be rectified:

* Open is good. d20/OGL was fantastic for driving sales of 3.0 PHB, I think. I wish there was a way to keep the "cr@p" low and quality high. Alas, I cannot think of one.

* Bring back some sacred cows and history. Magic Missile needs to hit automatically. And the default world should be Greyhawk or someone other identifiable world. Forgotten Realms, uhhh, it got so broke during 4.0. What can fix it?

3.5 is not perfect, it can be complex and physically unwieldy. A unholy combination of 3.5 and 4.0 could be nice.


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## Gaming Tonic

Originally Posted by cthulhu_duck 
"The Forgotten Realms will be supported from the start, and a video game art studio from China has been hired to fully detail the Realms."

Interesting. Is there existing art for D&D or Magic which has been done by video game art studios?



Kid Charlemagne said:


> This was probably the most unusual/interesting piece for me - it implies a pretty high level of online support, since I'm sure they wouldn't use digital art of that sort in the books.




There really is a whole lot more to know about this and unfortunately I am not allowed to say more about it at this time but I think that people who play online will be pleased and Wizards has never skimped on the art so we know the books will have quality art as well.  Some of the things that I can say is that Wizards is really thinking about how to please all the fans of the different editions and I think they have some wonderful ideas to do just that.  Artwork has never been a worry of mine.


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## JoJa

Dear Gaming Tonic, 

The journalist from Forbes who joined your early 5th ed game is David M. Ewalt. Notice the distinct lack of a D at the beginning of his last name. He writes the awesome Metagamer blog at forbes.com. 

Carry on.


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## Gaming Tonic

Thousands upon thousand of people missed that.  Thanks.  David was a great guy and was kind enough to give a stranger who never stopped talking role-playing a lift to the airport.  He is a great writer as well.  He is an awesome blogger and I have really enjoyed reading his stuff since I was introduced to it.


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## smiteworks

Code Name "Inigo Montoya"
Subtitle: _You killed my 4E, prepare to die!_

I actually like new editions.  I'm also glad to see Monte back... although as others stated, it wasn't much of a surprise to anyone.


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## JoJa

The fact that his twitter handle is @dewalt doesn't make it any easier. Yeah, I'm a big fan of David's, and I look forward to reading more of your coverage as DnD 5E/orwhateverweendupcallingit unfolds. Take care.


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## Nareth

I'm of a couple minds about this announcement. First off, even though they say their goal is to create an edition that can include players from any previous edition, I fear that the community will be fractured even further than it was with 4e's release. I'm also a bit concerned about the remaining time of 4e, as supplements and other books are going to suffer in the wake of this announcement. Not only that, but 4e does have a great tool in the online character builder and I'd hate to see that go away. 

I truly hope they do something for third parties similar to what happened when 3e came out. The ease with which companies could obtain a license and create material for 3e caused the hobby to explode, and brought us great companies like Goodman Games, Green Ronin, Necromancer, Malhavoc, and others. 4e didn't have that support due to the stand on licensing that Wizards took, and I think that hurt the game. 

Of course, I'm excited about the announcement at the same time, and have already signed up to playtest. If they are able to achieve everything they are saying they want to do, this version of the game could be extremely successful. But, there's always a danger in trying to be all things to all people. And, to be honest, anything that Monte works on or has his name on, becomes canon at my gaming table, so to have him involved in this project pretty much guarantees that I'll be investing when it is released.


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## Thraug

ssampier said:


> * Bring back some sacred cows and history. *Magic Missile needs to hit automatically.* And the *default world should be Greyhawk* or someone other identifiable world. Forgotten Realms, uhhh, it got so broke during 4.0. What can fix it?
> 
> 3.5 is not perfect, it can be complex and physically unwieldy. A unholy combination of 3.5 and 4.0 could be nice.




Magic Missile does hit without a roll in 4e, from errata about 6 months ago.

I agree about Greyhawk. I suspect there's some legal limitation keeping them from using Greyhawk. Otherwise one would think they would have it for 4e.


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## Drew

C'mon August?


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## docwatson223

thegrognard said:


> I just heard 4E die . ......





...and the crowd cheered!!!


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## docwatson223

Therise said:


> And suddenly, 4E became much cheaper as the masses cart their books down to used bookstores.





How about mass burnings?


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## MacMathan

Any word on potential digital strategies, other than emphasis on face to face?


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## Jawsh

To those of you considering burning your 4E books: 

would you consider mailing them to me instead? I can give them a better home. PM me.


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## Walking Dad

Same offer to those in Europe (easier mailing costs than oversea).


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## kunadam

Jawsh said:


> To those of you considering burning your 4E books:
> 
> would you consider mailing them to me instead? I can give them a better home. PM me.



Indeed, I can spare some shelf space for some 4E book myself too.
Then, after having 1m of 2nd ed, 1.5m of 3.X I could fill my first row of 4E.


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## Rechan

@Gaming Tonic <!-- END TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention -->

You can't talk about mechanics. That's cool. But you _played_ it.

Can you tell us how it felt? DId you like it? Did you have fun? What was your reaction to playing it.


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## Schmoe

Horacio said:


> So D&D 5th is coming !
> 
> It seems a good moment to come back to EN World... some 12 years after the first time...




Welcome back.  I recently started lurking around here again, too, after a several-year hiatus.


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## Gaming Tonic

[MENTION=54846]Rechan[/MENTION] I had a great time.  I can't talk mechanics but I will say these things.  I loved it.  It felt a lot like my favorite edition of D&D (go read my blogs and figure it out) with knowledge gathered from what works in the other editions.  It played quick with your turn coming around in short order because you aren't waiting 10 minutes for a player to decide what to do with an insignificant actiion.  The characters were easy to use.  I did get to play a cleric but I guess I spilled the beans on that somewhere so I will say it here.  The cleric was also my favorite (race) and that was a blast.  I picked randomly from a pile of character sheets on the table.  I can role-play anything, haha.  There was one new mechanic that I hadn't seen before in any edition that was absolutely brilliant to clear up some of the things that didn't work.  So I did have a blast.  Mike is a great DM and the rest of the group were a blast to play with.


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## Grummore

Two things :

1- I'd really like to know their thoughts behind the "why a 5th ed". Why they came to the conclusion that they should do a big change about it; the reasons behind the decision.

2- Since they are going to questions the public about the 5th ed, I think it's very important to open a worldwide forum about it. Peoples from americas, european, etc. doesn't necessarily see or play D&D the same way.


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## Falstaff

Gaming Tonic said:


> [MENTION=54846]Rechan[/MENTION] I had a great time.  I can't talk mechanics but I will say these things.  I loved it.  It felt a lot like my favorite edition of D&D (go read my blogs and figure it out) with knowledge gathered from what works in the other editions.  It played quick with your turn coming around in short order because you aren't waiting 10 minutes for a player to decide what to do with an insignificant actiion.  The characters were easy to use.  I did get to play a cleric but I guess I spilled the beans on that somewhere so I will say it here.  The cleric was also my favorite (race) and that was a blast.  I picked randomly from a pile of character sheets on the table.  I can role-play anything, haha.  There was one new mechanic that I hadn't seen before in any edition that was absolutely brilliant to clear up some of the things that didn't work.  So I did have a blast.  Mike is a great DM and the rest of the group were a blast to play with.




Where are these blogs that you speak of?


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## Thornir Alekeg

Falstaff said:


> Where are these blogs that you speak of?



My guess would be at Gamingtonic.com (it's in his sig banner in case you have them turned off).


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## WSmith

I am concerned about the statement about art from China. Magic the Gathering type art does not appeal to me as much as organic old fashion drawings that you find from the classic artists, like Dee and Trampier. Art actually does mean a lot to me, and many of my fellow older edition friends. I just in the end, it is too early to really think about this portion.


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## mkill

If you want a pile of pictures of, say, a guy in armor fighting a dragon, some video game art company in China is the place to go. A good Western Fantasy artists costs $2000 or so, I'm sure the Chinese don't take more than $200. But looking at some of the 4th edition artwork, this step may be a good thing.

What I'm worried about more is that while Monte Cook is a very productive game designer, he has a certain style. He still thinks the Toughness feat was a good idea. But we'll see about that soon.

Or maybe I'm just jaded because WotC rolled a natural 1 on their Marketing check for the last edition. If they screw up again, D&D is dead, and they might take the P&P game industry with them. I wish they would just stop trying and sell the D&D license to Paizo. I prefer the 4th edition ruleset, but at least Paizo knows how to run a game company.


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## docwatson223

mkill said:


> Or maybe I'm just jaded because WotC rolled a natural 1 on their Marketing check for the last edition.




..and then '00' on the critical fumbles table.

I agree, if they blow this one then the PnP industry is more or less done since like it or not the 'brand' for the industry *is* D&D. 

I really like the idea that Monte and Mike are back, though!


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## McTreble

I keep hearing about the marketing goofs on WotC's part regarding 4e, but I don't really see it. Maybe cause I was following the gestation closely and was a client months before it even came out, but I'm wondering what everyone is talking about.


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## Kzach

kitsune9 said:


> On one hand, interesting announcement. On the other hand, kind of underwhelming since all of us knew that 5E was coming since the return of Monte Cook.




Just like I know that the Sun will explode... eventually.

I really wish people would stop acting like they KNOW things when all they have is speculation and rumour. You didn't KNOW anything. You, like everyone else, madly and wildly speculated based on nothing more than pure imagination; crap in a bucket often enough and eventually you'll get something resembling a Picasso.


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## mrswing

Tough times a-comin' for Paizo and the OD&D/AD&D clones...


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## Falstaff

Thornir Alekeg said:


> My guess would be at Gamingtonic.com (it's in his sig banner in case you have them turned off).




Thanks. Yeah, I have banner stuff turned off.


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## Therise

My thankful list:

1. really glad they brought in Monte.  
2. happy they're ditching 4E.
3. really happy they'll be supporting the Realms and toning down the apocalypse that nuked it.
4. hopeful for D&D's future.


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## Falstaff

Therise said:


> My thankful list:
> 
> 1. really glad they brought in Monte.
> 2. happy they're ditching 4E.
> 3. really happy they'll be supporting the Realms and *toning down the apocalypse that nuked it.*
> 4. hopeful for D&D's future.




That part that I made bold and italics, can you tell me where you've seen WotC say that this is there intent?


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## Walking Dad

Therise said:


> My thankful list:
> 
> 1. really glad they brought in Monte.
> 2. happy they're ditching 4E.
> 3. really happy they'll be supporting the Realms and toning down the apocalypse that nuked it.
> 4. hopeful for D&D's future.




1. really unimpressed they brought in Monte.  (see MC WoD)
2. unhappy they're ditching 4E.
3. really happy they'll be still supporting the Realms and options to play before apocalypse that nuked it and after it.
4. hopeful for D&D's future.


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## Qwillion

Gaming Tonic said:


> _
> The Forgotten Realms will be supported from the start, and a video game art studio from China has been hired to fully detail the Realms.
> [/SIZE]_​



_

Several things about this statement are false so I thought I should clarify. 




			a video game art studio from China has been hired
		
Click to expand...



Perfect World was never hired to do this, they got it as part of accusation.

Perfect World was brought into the picture by purchasing Cryptic Studio, which was previously owned by Atari who had the liscence for all D&D computer games and the game is a violation of Atari's liscencing agreement with Turbine that does D&D Online which is why Turbine had to sue Atari, in order to do this WotC sued Atari and got the liscences back though it was still allowing Atari to produce licensed games, leaving Turbine to get its pound of flesh from Atari (we will ignore WotC vs. Turbine and creating competing games for your own brand). 




			to fully detail the Realms"
		
Click to expand...



They are not fully detialing the Realms this is the Neverwinter MMO its one city and the woods around it._​


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## Roland55

Kzach said:


> Just like I know that the Sun will explode... eventually.
> 
> I really wish people would stop acting like they KNOW things when all they have is speculation and rumour. You didn't KNOW anything. You, like everyone else, madly and wildly speculated based on nothing more than pure imagination; crap in a bucket often enough and eventually you'll get something resembling a Picasso.




I would love to have given you XP, just for that image.

But ... you know ... "You must give" and all that.


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## Therise

Falstaff said:


> That part that I made bold and italics, can you tell me where you've seen WotC say that this is there intent?



From this article at ENWorld, on the first page of this thread:

"The _Forgotten Realms_ will be supported from the start, and a video game art studio from China has been hired to fully detail the _Realms_.  I asked if going forward support would be continued for the current  time after the Spellplague and the Neverwinter Campaign. A <acronym title="Wizards of the Coast">WotC</acronym> spokesperson answered,_  "The Forgotten Realms has a rich history and we will support all of it.  It is for the gamers to decide which time they would enjoy playing in."_ "​It's a mix of talking about the Neverwinter MMO and the PnP Realms.

I recall seeing it also at the WotC main site, pretty much the same info though.


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## trancejeremy

Kzach said:


> Just like I know that the Sun will explode... eventually.




Er, it won't, actually. It's not massive enough. It will slowly expand to a Red Giant, then turn into a White Dwarf (after doing some shedding, but not exploding)


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## Falstaff

Therise said:


> From this article at ENWorld, on the first page of this thread:
> 
> "The _Forgotten Realms_ will be supported from the start, and a video game art studio from China has been hired to fully detail the _Realms_.  I asked if going forward support would be continued for the current  time after the Spellplague and the Neverwinter Campaign. A <acronym title="Wizards of the Coast">WotC</acronym> spokesperson answered,_  "The Forgotten Realms has a rich history and we will support all of it.  It is for the gamers to decide which time they would enjoy playing in."_ "​It's a mix of talking about the Neverwinter MMO and the PnP Realms.
> 
> I recall seeing it also at the WotC main site, pretty much the same info though.




Right, I saw this quote, thanks. But I don't see where they say anything about undoing the spellplague event.


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## Therise

Falstaff said:


> Right, I saw this quote, thanks. But I don't see where they say anything about undoing the spellplague event.



It's probably very unlikely that they'll un-do the Spellplague entirely, I just said they would be "toning it down".  Over at Candlekeep, "toning it down" is a common consensus for what they'd have to do to bring people back (those that left, or stopped buying the Realms products).


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## Vyvyan Basterd

Falstaff said:


> Right, I saw this quote, thanks. But I don't see where they say anything about undoing the spellplague event.






			
				WotC said:
			
		

> The Forgotten Realms has a rich history and we will support all of it.




Why would they need to undo the Spellplague? Would you deny those that actually *liked* it of an era that they enjoy playing in? The important part of the WotC quote, IMO, is above. They plan to support all eras of the Forgotten Realms history.


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## Falstaff

Vyvyan Basterd said:


> Why would they need to undo the Spellplague? Would you deny those that actually *liked* it of an era that they enjoy playing in? The important part of the WotC quote, IMO, is above. They plan to support all eras of the Forgotten Realms history.




I consider the spellplague so stupendously stupid that, yes, I would wholeheartedly embrace denying it remain a part of the Realms' history. To be frank, I could care less what other fans of the Realms think about any era of the history. But that's just my opinion, of course. I'm just one guy with some dice and access to the internet, so don't take me too seriously.


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## WSmith

What if they rebooted the Realms all the way back to the gray box... (kind of like the Star Trek movie).


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## darjr

a grey box reboot would be cool


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## Falstaff

darjr said:


> a grey box reboot would be cool




That would be beyond cool, but I think we have a better chance of getting Gygax to design 5th than it happening.


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## Nemesis Destiny

It really seems like one of those djinn-in-a-bottle kinda deals... just like the wars that "ruined" Greyhawk, etc. I can sympathize, to a point, but at the end of the day, you can choose to play in whatever timeline you like, deal with the changes, or pretend they never happened and chart your own course. This marks the first time that any "pre-ruination" timelines would officially be supported, if I'm not mistaken, so that's a plus...


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## FreeXenon

What Nemesis Destiny said. You always have had the choice of playing at whatever point in the settings timeline that you preferred, and to even create your own or change what is there. As a DM you can whever you want to your gaming world.

Having support for the previous timelines is great idea.

BTW Nemesis Destiny, I like the avatar.


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## Nemesis Destiny

FreeXenon said:


> BTW Nemesis Destiny, I like the avatar.



Thanks  Shamelessly stolen from Laughing Squid (blog site and webhosting company). I don't have any affiliation with them, I just like squiddy things and this seemed like a cool avatar 

Anyway, the whole thing with FR is a giant catch-22; if they just leave it to develop along without any major changes, it stagnates creatively (It's The Same, Now It Sucks), and if they do something like what they did, it becomes They Changed It, Now It Sucks.

The rub is, even a less drastic change, one easily undone in a narrative, would have caused fanboy outrage. The same thing happened in Greyhawk with the wars and the Out Of the Ashes boxed set. Lots of fans hated it, and it's arguably easier to "undo" than what happened to Toril. So a lot of groups ignored it.

It's one of the things that drove me to make my own setting. Not what happened to Greyhawk specifically, but the idea of creative control. And guess what? I decided to introduce a destructive, world-shaking event to drive story. And it worked. The people that have been playing in this campaign just love it, but probably because they had nothing invested in it emotionally *beforehand*. Now, they have a lot invested. They're constantly saying how real this campaign world feels, and how much they love exploring it, and really, that's the highest compliment a DM can get.

Now there are times that I shake my head and wish I'd never done x, or y, or z, but at the end of the day, the story is better for it. If you want to make an omelette, you have to break some eggs.

I don't mean to say that all of what I'm saying applies perfectly to the situation in FR, I'm just offering it up as food for thought. I honestly haven't really cared about things in Toril since I stopped running it and reading the novels in the late 90s.


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## Maredudd

WSmith said:


> What if they rebooted the Realms all the way back to the gray box... (kind of like the Star Trek movie).




Hmmm, now where did I put my grey box?


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## Aehrlon

Nemesis Destiny said:


> Anyway, the whole thing with FR is a giant catch-22; if they just leave it to develop along without any major changes, it stagnates creatively (It's The Same, Now It Sucks), and if they do something like what they did, it becomes They Changed It, Now It Sucks.




Good point. IMHO, they just went way too far with the Spellplague.  You don't need to radically change a campaign setting in order to usher in a new version of your game (4E).  From my experience, most Forgotten Realms fans are pretty attached to their Toril.  I believe that WotC would have been far better served if they had done what TSR did back in the days of leaving AD&D behind and ushering in 2nd Edition: the God's War/Time of Troubles.  Yes, there were some big changes as a result of all of that but the world was left relatively intact.  Some gods were slain, some created, others replaced... plot twists are necessary to prevent a world from becoming stale.   Spellplague?!  It was just too much.  I ignored it in the 3.5 game I was running.  4E is far too one-dimensional to me; glad to see them put the proverbial fork in it... it's done.


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