# Dragon Magazine #365's Character Concepts: Masterful optimization advice by WotC



## RigaMortus2 (Jul 25, 2008)

So, remember how Dragon Magazine used to give us progressions for wonderful builds such as Ranger 10/Cleric 10 and Barbarian 10/Wizard 10 back in the era of 3.5? It seems like that tradition has continued for Dragon in the time of 4.0. WotC has once again set sail for fail and showed us that they themselves cannot make good builds to save their lives.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=16431259#post16431259

The first build, the teleportation-based eladrin Fey Pact warlock/wizard/Feyborn/Archmage, is actually somewhat decent and accomplishes its job of being a mobile battlefield rearranger, though it illegally enters the Archmage epic destiny as a warlock through the Arcane Initiate feat. The second build, however, the eladrin fighter/wizard/Wizard of the Spiral Tower/Eternal Seeker... oh man, you are not ready for this. Here's a list of all the things that are either poor choices or illegal choices about that mockery of a gish build:

• Fighter/wizard. No, just no, you are shooting yourself in the foot here. You don't even get to use Corellon's Implement, and you're in a fiasco due to your lack of a shield. Even without the Intelligence-based swordmage released, there are better ways to be a warrior-mage: an Infernal Pact warlock/fighter/Iron Vanguard (Hexhammer), for example, or a Tactical Presence warlord/wizard/Battle Captain. Even an actual wizard benefits more from going Wizard of the Spiral Tower than a fighter/wizard.
• Point-buy array of 16 Strength, 10 Dexterity (12 for eladrin), 12 Constitution, 14 Intelligence (16 for eladrin), 13 Wisdom, 11 Charisma. This is a terribad array that doesn't even get you Heavy Blade Opportunity or Heavy Blade Mastery. An array of 16 Strength, 13 Dexterity (15 for eladrin), 11 Constitution, 16 Intelligence (18 for eladrin), 10 Wisdom, 8 Charisma would be better. Or if you want a little more Strength in exchange for no HBO or HBM, then go genasi with 16 Strength (18 for genasi), 10 Dexterity, 12 Constitution, 16 Intelligence (18 for genasi), 12 Wisdom, 8 Charisma.
• Magic Missile selected for the Arcane Initiate power. Come on, you're a friggin' fighter, you want Thunderwave because it lets you mark several enemies at once, and it's a blast so you don't provoke AoOs for using it in melee.
• How do you replace Cleave with Thunderwave at level 11 when you're going Wizard of the Spiral Tower? This is a glaring error. Oh wait, from the rest of the level 11-20 guide, it seems like he's actually going paragon multiclassing instead of Wizard of the Spiral Tower. Multiclass drifting, awesome!
• Taking Armor Specialization (Scale) at level 18 with only 13 Dexterity is illegal.
• Devastating Critical is a very poor feat to take at level 20.
• Oh good lord, don't tell me you're actually going Eternal Seeker for your epic destiny. You're already paragon multiclassing into wizard, and now this?
• Taking Heavy Blade Mastery at level 26 with only 14 Dexterity is likewise illegal.
• Brute Strike as the level 29 fighter daily. Force the Battle is now in a corner crying.
• You've got a longsword (later, a bastard sword) in one hand and... a large shield AND a wand in the other for both Tide of Iron and your implement. That's flagrantly illegal.
• Eladrin Soldier does not apply any more once you take Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword), and it should be retrained into Weapon Focus (Heavy Blades).
• The Eternal Seeker lets you gain only encounter/daily attack powers from other classes, not utilities, so selecting Own the Battlefield at level 22 is illegal.


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## Dalzig (Jul 25, 2008)

I'm starting to think that article was written by Peter Schaefer instead of Peter Schaefer.

:rimshot:


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## Nifft (Jul 26, 2008)

RigaMortus2 said:


> The first build, the teleportation-based eladrin Fey Pact warlock/wizard/Feyborn/Archmage, is actually somewhat decent (...)



 You should credit when you quote.

Cheers, -- N


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## Mengu (Jul 26, 2008)

I was tearing my hair out trying to figure out what happened at what level, and why there was stuff like Eladrin Soldier and Weapon Focus. I noticed the Scale specialization mistake too. At 20th level status report, I was looking at Cleave and trying to remember, didn't he ditch this for Thunderwave, did he for some strange reason get it back? I guess it's cut and paste error. I also noticed his artwork looks rather human. I can't help but wonder if they changed concepts midway and simply ran into editorial issues that never got cleaned up.

I've seen people do level ups to 30th level on these boards, and it looks a heck of a lot cleaner than that article.


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## RigaMortus2 (Jul 26, 2008)

Nifft said:


> You should credit when you quote.
> 
> Cheers, -- N




I didn't realize you could get sued for copy/pasting message board posts.

If it's just a courtesy thing, just mark me down as tactless...


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## doctorhook (Jul 26, 2008)

I was wondering about that "Spiral Tower" business. Thanks for giving us a more complete list of the apparent errors in this article, RigaMortus2.

I realize it's an expression of your personality and your style, RigaMortus2, but it would be more constructive for the community if you adopted a less sarcastic tone. (In particular, I'm referring to the misleading title of this thread.) Please don't interpret this suggestion as derision or personal attack; I happen to respect the substantial contributions you've made both here and at Gleemax.


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## Mengu (Jul 26, 2008)

What's wrong with sarcasm? Aren't message boards the practice ground for it?


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## Dalzig (Jul 26, 2008)

Mengu said:


> What's wrong with sarcasm? Aren't message boards *the internets* the practice ground for it?




Fixed.


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## FadedC (Jul 26, 2008)

I seem to remember they also have the fighter/wizard take the power Get Over Here (fighter utility 2) in order to move enemies into his AoE.....ignoring the fact that it only works on friendly targets.

With that being said, as bad as these builds are, I'd take one in my party over a barbarian 10/wizard 10 anyday.


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## doctorhook (Jul 26, 2008)

Mengu said:


> What's wrong with sarcasm? Aren't message boards the practice ground for it?



...Yes. And with some effort, we can be better than that. (Btw, Mengu, very appropriate sig. )

Has anybody got an alternate (and superior) gish build? more specifically, would anyone like to take a crack at "fixing" the article, following the same format and specific intention?


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## 00 (Jul 26, 2008)

RigaMortus2 said:


> ...The first build, the teleportation-based eladrin Fey Pact warlock/wizard/Feyborn/Archmage, is actually somewhat decent and accomplishes its job of being a mobile battlefield rearranger, though it illegally enters the Archmage epic destiny as a warlock through the Arcane Initiate feat. The second build...




how is archmage illegal... Arcane Initate makes you count as a Wizard.. thus you qualify for the prestige class...

I am really interested.. becouse I already have a character very similar.. but taking Blood Mage & Archmage (via the Arcane Initiative Feat).

PHB p208
"A character who has taken a class-specific multiclass
feat counts as a member of that class for the purpose of
meeting prerequisites for taking other feats and qualifying
for paragon paths"


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## Gloombunny (Jul 26, 2008)

00 said:


> how is archmage illegal... Arcane Initate makes you count as a Wizard.. thus you qualify for the prestige class...
> 
> I am really interested.. becouse I already have a character very similar.. but taking Blood Mage & Archmage (via the Arcane Initiative Feat).



By the letter of the rules, multiclass feats make you count as a member of that class only for the purpose of meeting feat or paragon path prerequisites, not for epic destiny prerequisites.

I'd totally allow it for a warlock[wizard], though.


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## doctorhook (Jul 26, 2008)

Gloombunny said:


> By the letter of the rules, multiclass feats make you count as a member of that class only for the purpose of meeting feat or paragon path prerequisites, not for epic destiny prerequisites.
> 
> I'd totally allow it for a warlock[wizard], though.



Yeah, I'd let it slide too. As far as I'm concerned, if it qualifies you for a paragon path, it ought to qualify you for an epic destiny too. I don't see the problem with allowing this, nor do I see any reason to believe this was not the intention.

I might be wrong about that, but you'll have to convince me _why_ multiclass feats shouldn't qualify one for a class-specific epic destiny.


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## Runestar (Jul 26, 2008)

> I might be wrong about that, but you'll have to convince me _why_ multiclass feats shouldn't qualify one for a class-specific epic destiny.




You mean like how a fighter21 with the arcane initiate feat who has swapped in sleep could possibly qualify as an archmage, which is supposed to reflect you reaching the epitome of magical might? 

I don't see anything gamebreaking about that though - demigod appears to be a strictly better choice, however I look at it.


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## Dalzig (Jul 26, 2008)

The reason I'll let MC-wizards take Archmage:  They get nothing for it.  

Spell Recall:  "Choose one daily SPELL..."
Arcane Spirit: "...spell...spell....spell..."
Archspell: "Choose one daily spell...."
Shape Magic: "...regain one arcane power...."

So only Wizards, Warlocks, and Swordmages can get full benefit.  Some other Arcane class can benefit from Shape Magic.  And anyone can benefit from Arcane Spirit if you do a 100% strict reading of it, which I don't do.

Sure, go ahead and take it.  

Edit:  Well, okay.  If you take a couple power-swap feats, it makes it much better, but it is still hardly worth it for non-wizards/warlocks/swordmages.


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## Pickles JG (Jul 26, 2008)

RigaMortus2 said:


> The first build, the teleportation-based eladrin Fey Pact warlock/wizard/Feyborn/Archmage, is actually somewhat decent and accomplishes its job of being a mobile battlefield rearranger, though it illegally enters the Archmage epic destiny as a warlock through the Arcane Initiate feat.



He does go overboard on teleports & chooses the rather redundant Magic Missile but yeah



> • Fighter/wizard. No, just no, you are shooting yourself in the foot here. You don't even get to use Corellon's Implement, and you're in a fiasco due to your lack of a shield. Even without the Intelligence-based swordmage released, there are better ways to be a warrior-mage: an Infernal Pact warlock/fighter/Iron Vanguard (Hexhammer), for example, or a Tactical Presence warlord/wizard/Battle Captain. Even an actual wizard benefits more from going Wizard of the Spiral Tower than a fighter/wizard.




He is not optimising just showing it can be done reasonably. It could do with addressing the shield issue.



> • Point-buy array of 16 Strength, 10 Dexterity (12 for eladrin), 12 Constitution, 14 Intelligence (16 for eladrin), 13 Wisdom, 11 Charisma. This is a terribad array that doesn't even get you Heavy Blade Opportunity or Heavy Blade Mastery. An array of 16 Strength, 13 Dexterity (15 for eladrin), 11 Constitution, 16 Intelligence (18 for eladrin), 10 Wisdom, 8 Charisma would be better. Or if you want a little more Strength in exchange for no HBO or HBM, then go genasi with 16 Strength (18 for genasi), 10 Dexterity, 12 Constitution, 16 Intelligence (18 for genasi), 12 Wisdom, 8 Charisma.



This is the default array - again not optimising but working under some constraint (like not using semi published races )



> • Magic Missile selected for the Arcane Initiate power. Come on, you're a friggin' fighter, you want Thunderwave because it lets you mark several enemies at once, and it's a blast so you don't provoke AoOs for using it in melee.



Agreed



> • How do you replace Cleave with Thunderwave at level 11 when you're going Wizard of the Spiral Tower? This is a glaring error. Oh wait, from the rest of the level 11-20 guide, it seems like he's actually going paragon multiclassing instead of Wizard of the Spiral Tower. Multiclass drifting, awesome!



He mentioned the Spiral Tower as an alternative option. Of course he probably forgot the implement mastery bit.



> • Taking Armor Specialization (Scale) at level 18 with only 13 Dexterity is illegal.
> • Devastating Critical is a very poor feat to take at level 20.
> • Oh good lord, don't tell me you're actually going Eternal Seeker for your epic destiny. You're already paragon multiclassing into wizard, and now this?
> • Taking Heavy Blade Mastery at level 26 with only 14 Dexterity is likewise illegal.
> • Brute Strike as the level 29 fighter daily. Force the Battle is now in a corner crying.



Agreed


> • You've got a longsword (later, a bastard sword) in one hand and... a large shield AND a wand in the other for both Tide of Iron and your implement. That's flagrantly illegal.



He is juggling. He could use a light shield to make it a little easier... Maybe 2 handers & Quick draw are the way for Gish. Quick draw the implement whenever you need it & minor it away. You can hold your sword (er Maul) one handed, just not use it. I would let people do the same with a light shield - in fact even without quick draw. 



> • Eladrin Soldier does not apply any more once you take Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword), and it should be retrained into Weapon Focus (Heavy Blades).
> • The Eternal Seeker lets you gain only encounter/daily attack powers from other classes, not utilities, so selecting Own the Battlefield at level 22 is illegal.




Yup. He can get it at 26 but I assume he gets something else (I deleted the article in a fit of meh)


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jul 26, 2008)

RigaMortus2 said:


> If it's just a courtesy thing, just mark me down as tactless...




*marks RigaMortus2 down*

Well, let's hope that the WotC writers didn't miss the original post (or this one), and will fix the write-up before it goes in the final dragon PDF.


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## Runestar (Jul 26, 2008)

I do hope that wotc also remembers to include a footnote that their builds are far from optimized. Last thing I want to see is someone being mislead into believing that it is a perfectly viable build to emulate and end up playing a sub-optimal character build which he mistakenly believes is more effective than it really is, while not knowing what went wrong if/when he falls flat on his face.


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## Protagonist (Jul 26, 2008)

Runestar said:


> Last thing I want to see is someone being mislead into believing that it is a perfectly viable build to emulate and end up playing a sub-optimal character build which he mistakenly believes is more effective than it really is, while not knowing what went wrong if/when he falls flat on his face.




Oh yes, this will really ruin John Doe's experience at Bob's after work d&d campaign.


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## Danceofmasks (Jul 26, 2008)

Well, it'd ruin their day if they brought said character to a con, and was laughed at by the 1337 players there.


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## RyvenCedrylle (Jul 27, 2008)

Agreed with Runestar.  This is not an optimized build and should probably mention that on the article.  WoTC clearly makes their builds for flexibility, not focused effectiveness.  What you've got here, RigaMortus, is a decent swordmage facsimile.  WoTC has something that's mostly effective in melee and somewhat effective in ranged.  It's also a little more versatile with the skills, which is something we're seeing more of - pregens that are meant to be able to not suck completely during any given skill challenge.


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## Dysmachia (Jul 27, 2008)

Protagonist said:


> Oh yes, this will really ruin John Doe's experience at Bob's after work d&d campaign.




John Doe pays for and reads Dragon?


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## AllisterH (Jul 27, 2008)

Um, not optimized != Ineffective.

I think a lot of people are getting the two confused.

Basically, can these builds take on a standard monster of their level (+/-1) and have a 50/50 shot of winning?

Then it is an effective build.

Can a group of 5 of them take on a standard adventure?

Then the build is effective.


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## Ardulac (Jul 27, 2008)

RigaMortus2 said:


> • Magic Missile selected for the Arcane Initiate power. Come on, you're a friggin' fighter, you want Thunderwave because it lets you mark several enemies at once, and it's a blast so you don't provoke AoOs for using it in melee.




I actually got the impression from both of these write-ups that we are seeing what will soon be Arcane Initiate errata.  The first character has the phrase "(wizard at-will originally)" following "The feat comes with training in Arcana and magic missile".  In addition, every other choice of powers seems to be accompanied by an explanation for the choice (though sometimes poor), but both of these take magic missile for granted.  Plus, it would be very strange for the fighter build to overlook thunderwave as the author does mention the value of close attacks several times.

If this really is being changed, then that is a point in favor of both of these builds.  Admittedly, this isn't nearly enough to save the gish, but the teleporter is better than I would have expected from Dragon.  Generally their advice is poison.


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## Runestar (Jul 27, 2008)

> I actually got the impression from both of these write-ups that we are seeing what will soon be Arcane Initiate errata.




What errata is that? That arcane initiate automatically grants magic missile as an encounter power, rather than a wizard at-will power of your choice?

Assuming it is not an oversight, it could simply be the original playtest version of arcane initiate. Perhaps they felt that magic missile might be too weak a choice (you had javelins if you wanted ranged marking) and then revised it to let you select any at-will you wanted (of which scorching burst or thunderwave make excellent choices for mass-marking).


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## Ardulac (Jul 27, 2008)

Runestar said:


> What errata is that? That arcane initiate automatically grants magic missile as an encounter power, rather than a wizard at-will power of your choice?
> 
> Assuming it is not an oversight, it could simply be the original playtest version of arcane initiate. Perhaps they felt that magic missile might be too weak a choice (you had javelins if you wanted ranged marking) and then revised it to let you select any at-will you wanted (of which scorching burst or thunderwave make excellent choices for mass-marking).




That's pretty much what I think they would be changing it to, an automatic magic missile.  Based on the wording with "wizard at-will originally", I find it unlikely that the article was based on old playtest information.  That is, unless, it was like it is now, they changed it to just Magic Missile, and then they changed it back.  Which is possible.  I get the impression that this is instead an early office version of errata to limit the Arcane Initiate choice.  Either way, it seems clear that the article is using such a version due to the other clues.


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## Danceofmasks (Jul 27, 2008)

AllisterH said:


> Um, not optimized != Ineffective.
> 
> I think a lot of people are getting the two confused.
> 
> ...




A party is supposed to take on an EL+2 encounter and _almost certainly_ win.
50/50 shot of winning is pink ninja territory.


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## AllisterH (Jul 27, 2008)

Danceofmasks said:


> A party is supposed to take on an EL+2 encounter and _almost certainly_ win.
> 50/50 shot of winning is pink ninja territory.




"pink ninja"? That's a new one to me.

Still, I believe I myself was in error. From playing so far, here's what I've noticed.

A standard level X party should be able to defeat a standard encounter (defined in the DMG as level X or level X+1) WITHOUT resorting to dailies. A couple of healing surges might be used up but it is a relatively tense battle as nobody wants to unload their dailies. You might even have one or two near death

A level X+2/3 encounter should require the expenditure of dailies from some PCs. Definitely one or two will hit negative pretty much 

A level X+4 should require the unloading of all dailies and there's guarantee the PCs will win.

A level X+5 encounter will pretty much result in a beatdown of the PCs unless the dice gods are with them.


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## wayne62682 (Jul 27, 2008)

AllisterH said:


> "pink ninja"? That's a new one to me.




Yeah, same here.  I guess it means totally ineffective, because a pink ninja is easily spotted.

I don't mind a lot of the advice WotC gives out, because it's always designed for the average gamer, not the optimizer (even some of their build suggestions in the PHB aren't that great.  Not "pink ninja", but not good) so I really doubt that the majority of groups will have a problem, even with so-called "sucky" builds.  That was always the case in 3.5, despite the CO dwellers arguments.

I have a bigger issue with them getting certain rules wrong or picking a power that they can't use because of the rules.  I would at least hope they _understand the freaking rules_ before they write advice articles for players.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jul 27, 2008)

wayne62682 said:


> Yeah, same here.  I guess it means totally ineffective, because a pink ninja is easily spotted.
> 
> I don't mind a lot of the advice WotC gives out, because it's always designed for the average gamer, not the optimizer (even some of their build suggestions in the PHB aren't that great.  Not "pink ninja", but not good) so I really doubt that the majority of groups will have a problem, even with so-called "sucky" builds.  That was always the case in 3.5, despite the CO dwellers arguments.
> 
> I have a bigger issue with them getting certain rules wrong or picking a power that they can't use because of the rules.  I would at least hope they _understand the freaking rules_ before they write advice articles for players.




Pink Ninja - this could work, it just has to be a _Terra/Nile Empire_ Ninja with some skill in "Wierd Science" so he builds himself a SEP.


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## Nifft (Jul 27, 2008)

Ardulac said:


> That's pretty much what I think they would be changing it to, an automatic magic missile.  Based on the wording with "wizard at-will originally", I find it unlikely that the article was based on old playtest information.  That is, unless, it was like it is now, they changed it to just Magic Missile, and then they changed it back.  Which is possible.  I get the impression that this is instead an early office version of errata to limit the Arcane Initiate choice.  Either way, it seems clear that the article is using such a version due to the other clues.



 There's an old maxim about not looking for malice where stupidity could suffice. I'd extend that to not looking for ingenious stealth errata where errors could suffice.

It's not like WotC has a long history of iron-clad rules-abiding NPC creation.

Cheers, -- N


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## Kordeth (Jul 27, 2008)

Nifft said:


> There's an old maxim about not looking for malice where stupidity could suffice. I'd extend that to not looking for ingenious stealth errata where errors could suffice.
> 
> It's not like WotC has a long history of iron-clad rules-abiding NPC creation.
> 
> Cheers, -- N




Or, y'know, the author just thought magic missile was the best choice, since it counts as a ranged basic attack, and rather than wasting verbiage by saying "the characer gets training in Arcana and one at-will wizard attack as an encounter power. He chooses magic missile," it was condensed down to "he gets training in Arcana and magic missile as an encounter power."


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## Nifft (Jul 27, 2008)

Kordeth said:


> Or, y'know, the author just thought magic missile was the best choice, since it counts as a ranged basic attack, and rather than wasting verbiage by saying "the characer gets training in Arcana and one at-will wizard attack as an encounter power. He chooses magic missile," it was condensed down to "he gets training in Arcana and magic missile as an encounter power."



 Don't quote me when you say that. I'm not the one claiming magic missile was required by secret errata.

Cheers, -- N


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## Kordeth (Jul 28, 2008)

Nifft said:


> Don't quote me when you say that. I'm not the one claiming magic missile was required by secret errata.
> 
> Cheers, -- N




No, but you were the one suggesting it was an error--I was pointing out that it isn't necessarily either. After all, the level 4 entry just says "Level 4: +1 Strength (17), +1 Intelligence (17)." Surely we aren't to assume the author thinks all fighters automatically get +1 Str and +1 Int at 4th level?


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## Nifft (Jul 28, 2008)

Kordeth said:


> No, but you were the one suggesting it was an error--I was pointing out that it isn't necessarily either. After all, the level 4 entry just says "Level 4: +1 Strength (17), +1 Intelligence (17)." Surely we aren't to assume the author thinks all fighters automatically get +1 Str and +1 Int at 4th level?



_sigh_

There are both errors and bad decisions in the build.

Neither is an indication of "stealth errata".

Is that clear?

 -- N


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## Kordeth (Jul 28, 2008)

Nifft said:


> _sigh_
> 
> There are both errors and bad decisions in the build.
> 
> ...




I wasn't arguing that any of that _was _"stealth errata." I'm fully aware of the problems in the article. I was just pointing out that _this particular instance_ isn't automatically an error _or_ "stealth errata." I also don't think it's a particularly bad decision, but that's neither hear nor there.


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## Runestar (Jul 28, 2008)

And at any rate, the swordmage will be out in a few months.


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## Ardulac (Jul 28, 2008)

Nifft said:


> _sigh_
> 
> There are both errors and bad decisions in the build.
> 
> ...




I don't know that I'd use the term "stealth errata".  That seems to imply that I think they are already intending for it to be the case.  I'm just saying that it might be something they are throwing around or have decided to do with the next set of updates.

And while I find many of the decisions in the 2nd half of the article to be poor/illegal, the emphasis the author puts on close spells for that character and the fact that it is the only power which isn't explained (in either article as far as I can tell) seems to indicate that he didn't think he had a choice.  Besides, magic missile is almost hands down the worst choice for the otherwise decent teleporter.  The only thing magic missile has over eldritch blast is additional range (at the price of some average damage).


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## Athildur (Jul 28, 2008)

Erm...the arguments about Magic Missile were not about the teleporter. Unless this build suddenly also got the multiclass feat into Warlock, Eldritch Blast isn't even an option for the fighter/wizard.

*sigh* sometimes I do wonder whether people that write articles about new character builds in magazines and such actually play the game and have tested it, or whether they're "pretty sure this is going to be good", and convinced that they should know because of whatever reason...whatever happened to demanding a bit of quality? *sigh*


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## Ardulac (Jul 28, 2008)

Athildur said:


> Erm...the arguments about Magic Missile were not about the teleporter. Unless this build suddenly also got the multiclass feat into Warlock, Eldritch Blast isn't even an option for the fighter/wizard.




The argument about Magic Missile that we were having is about whether it is required by Arcane Initiate or if the author chose it.  So it ended up coming up because both characters took Arcane Initiate and Magic Missile.


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## Andor (Jul 29, 2008)

The teleporter build is effective at teleporting all over the battlefield.

If he were at my table I think I'd kick his teleporting ass off a cliff and ask the player to make a character who actually _does_ something however. 

I mean seriously, his big power play is that at 16th level he gets to do a 4 point close burst 1 when he teleports? Wow, that would be really impressive.... if he were a level 1 kobold minion.


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## Nifft (Jul 29, 2008)

Andor said:


> I mean seriously, his big power play is that at 16th level he gets to do a 4 point close burst 1 when he teleports? Wow, that would be really impressive.... if he were a level 1 kobold minion.



 It shoots through schools of minions.

Minions of any level.

Cheers, -- N


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## jimtillman (Jul 29, 2008)

Andor said:


> The teleporter build is effective at teleporting all over the battlefield.
> 
> If he were at my table I think I'd kick his teleporting ass off a cliff and ask the player to make a character who actually _does_ something however.
> 
> I mean seriously, his big power play is that at 16th level he gets to do a 4 point close burst 1 when he teleports? Wow, that would be really impressive.... if he were a level 1 kobold minion.




MEH I think the porter could be a fun class to play like any of the options that dragon showed up I would change some of the choices but the concept could be fun


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## guivre (Jul 29, 2008)

Nifft said:


> There's an old maxim about not looking for malice where stupidity could suffice. I'd extend that to not looking for ingenious stealth errata where errors could suffice.
> 
> It's not like WotC has a long history of iron-clad rules-abiding NPC creation.
> 
> Cheers, -- N




That would be Hanlon's Razor, or a paraphrase of it at least.


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## tiornys (Jul 29, 2008)

doctorhook said:


> Has anybody got an alternate (and superior) gish build? more specifically, would anyone like to take a crack at "fixing" the article, following the same format and specific intention?



Is there any interest in this?  I have a build and might be willing to take the time to type it up article style, but 30 posts have ignored this comment so far.

t~


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## Runestar (Jul 29, 2008)

Swordmage will be released soon.

A warlord/wizard/spiral tower wizard PP/demigod combination is probably much better. You get int synergy between your wizard multiclass powers and your warlord abilities. Anything is better than paragon multiclassing, while demigod gives you more mileage than archmage (considering that you are still a fighter first and spellcaster second).

As for race, the new genasi gives +2 str/int, and so is a good fit.


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## Felon (Jul 29, 2008)

Regarding the OP:

There is no inherent assumption that all fighters will use shields, since they do actually get the option for two-handed builds.

As to how effective it is to give a fighter magic missile, it raises the question of what the heck somebody's multi-classing for in the first place. A lot of folks are doing it to gain some diversity rather than just become better at what they already do well. In a fighter/wizard's case, that might simply mean boosting ranged effectiveness without requiring a weapon switch.


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## Bigwilly (Jul 29, 2008)

Sticking a couple of points into dex instead of str and int will give access to the weapon feats although final str/int bonuses will be one less (not such a big deal). 

It's the multiclassing that caught me out, especially at 11 - is he actually just multiclassing as a wizard or taking the spiral path paragon path?


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## Reaper Steve (Jul 29, 2008)

tiornys said:


> Is there any interest in this? I have a build and might be willing to take the time to type it up article style, but 30 posts have ignored this comment so far.
> 
> t~




I'm interested.


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## Scalding (Jul 29, 2008)

tiornys said:
			
		

> Is there any interest in this? I have a build and might be willing to take the time to type it up article style, but 30 posts have ignored this comment so far.




I'm interested!


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## tiornys (Jul 29, 2008)

(note:  this build isn't intended to be as optimal as possible, but rather is a focused build around a concept that will ideally be effective and fun to play)

*Davareth the Fighter-Mage*

There are several ways to combine these classes, from a wizard who can handle a sword well enough to take care of himself in melee, to a fighter who augments his sword-swinging with a couple of fireballs and lightning bolts at the beginning of battle.  Davareth is a fighter who uses his wizardly training to help him control the front line of the battlefield.

*Race:*  Both Intelligence and Strength are important Davareth, as he intends to make plenty of attacks based in each attribute.  Wisdom improves his opportunity attacks as well as several wizard powers.  Dexterity is important to qualify for sword-based feats.  And, of course, a front-line combatant always benefits from Constitution.  With so many stats needing some amount of attention, it's important to find a race that adds bonuses in multiple areas.  Eladrin is the only race in the PHB with a bonus to either Strength or Intelligence that doesn't also boost Charisma.

*Class:*  For a character intending to live on the front-lines, it's hard to turn down the significantly higher hit-points, better starting equipment access, and marking ability of the Fighter, so Davareth will be based in that class.  He'll primarily be using a longsword, so he selects the one-handed weapon talent.

*Ability Scores:*  Using the standard array, and the guidelines noted under Race, Davareth comes to the following stat distribution:  Strength 16, Constitution 11, Dexterity 14*, Intelligence 16*, Wisdom 13, Charisma 10.  (* indicates a stat with a +2 racial bonus)  He'd like a higher Constitution, but needs that 14 Dexterity to automatically qualify for Heavy Blade Opportunity.  He can compensate for his below-average durability through smart power and feat selection.

*Skills:*  Athletics, Endurance, and Heal are Davareth's class skills.  For his bonus racial skill, he chooses History to reflect his study of battlefield tactics.  He also picks up Arcana from his feat....

*Feats:*  Arcane Initiate confirms Davareth's wizardly training, netting him a skill as well as a bonus power.  Davareth chooses _Thunderwave_, which is a great tool for managing the battle lines.

*Powers:* _Cleave_ and _Tide of Iron_ are the best controlling at-wills for a fighter.  _Steel Serpent Strike_ (fighter encounter) lets him pin down an elusive foe, while _Comeback Strike_ (fighter daily) increases his staying power.

*Equipment:*  Longsword, Heavy Shield, Scale armor, and supplies.  As a base fighter, Davareth gains no bonus for using a non-magical implement, and can therefore afford to use a shield without hampering his ability to use his wizard attack.

Davareth is ready to launch his career.  Now we follow his feat, power, stat-increase, and path choices as he pursues his destiny.

*Level 2:* _Unstoppable_ (fighter utility) provides a nice durability boost against a tough foe.  For his feat, Davareth selects Quickdraw, which will allow him to rapidly switch between a sword and a magical implement, and provides a useful boost to initiative.

*Level 3:* _Sweeping Blow_ (fighter encounter) gives Davareth another tool to mark multiple enemies at a time.

*Level 4:*  Davareth increases his Strength and Intelligence by 1 (S 17 C 11 D 14 I 17 W 13 R 10).  He'll focus exclusively on these primary attack stats unless he decides to qualify for Heavy Blade Mastery, which will require a point of Dexterity.  That decision can wait until he's much closer to the Epic tier.  For his feat, he takes Novice Power, and swaps _Sweeping Blow_ for the generally superior _Fire Shroud_ (wizard encounter).  He trades a small attack bonus for the ability to attack Reflex instead of AC, a much larger surrounding area, and ongoing damage.

*Level 5:* _Rain of Steel_ (fighter daily) deals automatic damage to anything contesting the line of battle.

*Level 6:* _Unbreakable_ (fighter utility) is another power that shores up Davareth's durability.     The Ritual Caster feat lets him pick up some useful rituals such as Brew Potions and Enchant/Disenchant Magic Items.

*Level 7:* _Come and Get It_ (fighter encounter) is one of the best available powers for managing the front line, and outclasses any of the wizardly L7 encounter powers for Davareth's purposes.

*Level 8:*  Another stat bump to Strength and Intelligence yields higher attack and damage modifiers, a welcome boost (S 18 C 11 D 14 I 18 W 13 R 10).  Davareth continues to pick up multiclassing feats, taking Acolyte Power.  He swaps out _Unstoppable_ for the more reliable and often superior _Shield_ (wizard utility).

*Level 9:* _Shift the Battlefield_ (fighter daily) is another great control power, although Davareth gives serious consideration to _Victorious Surge_.  He decides his party's healing is sufficient to remain focused on his controlling role.

*Level 10:*  Davareth takes the last multi-class feat, Adept Power, and promptly swaps out _Rain of Steel_ for _Stinking Cloud_ (wizard daily), a power he can activate early in the battle and continuously maintain to induce his enemies to approach on his terms. He also swaps out his newly selected _Stalwart Guard_ (fighter utility) for the excellent _Blur_ (wizard utility), regaining _Unstoppable_ and losing _Shield_ in the process.  Since those swaps don't count against his one allowed swap per level, he also swaps out _Tide of Iron_ for _Sure Strike_.  Attempting to juggle his sword and implement is becoming increasingly costly, as it's awkward to end his turn wielding a sword (for better opportunity attacks) after using a wizard attack.  His shield is relegated to occasional duty, and he now meets most battles with a sword in one hand, and a wand in the other.

*Level 11:*  As a multiclassed fighter-wizard, Davareth has a staggering 9 choices for paragon path.  After due consideration, he selects the Battle Mage path as granting him the most benefits.  He picks up an excellent boost to his action point actions, and _Forceful Retort_ (battlemage encounter), increasing his repertoire of close burst powers.  All of Davareth's stats increase by one (S 19 C 12 D 15 I 19 W 14 R 11).  Most importantly, his Dexterity improves to 15, qualifying him for several feats.  He picks up Heavy Blade Opportunity, which allows him to use _Sure Strike_ on opportunity attacks to combine with combat superiority and stop enemies in their tracks.  He also swaps out Quickdraw for Scale Specialization as it's no longer needed to switch rapidly between wand and sword (although he'll likely want it again later as it allows him to switch rapidly between wands carrying different attack spells).

*Level 12:* _Arcane Rejuvenation_ (battlemage utility) is another durability-increasing power, and a large part of the appeal of the Battlemage paragon path.  Iron Will shores up Davareth's relatively weak Will defense, an increasing concern in the Paragon tier.  All of Davareth's non-paragon feats are directly concerned with wizardly multi-classing, so he decides not to swap them out.

*Level 13:* _Thunderlance_ (wizard encounter) trades in for _Storm of Blows_ (fighter encounter), which replaces _Steel Serpent Strike_.  As a consequence, Davareth also gives up _Fire Shroud_ and regains _Sweeping Blow_.

*Level 14:*  Strength and Intelligence are again boosted for Davareth's second ability modifier boost (S 20 C 12 D 15 I 20 W 14 R 11).  For his feat, Arcane Reach increases Davareth's options with his many close attacks.

*Level 15:* _Unyielding Avalance_ (fighter daily) trades out for _Comeback Strike_.

*Level 16:* _Iron Warrior_ (fighter utility) + _Blur_ is better than _Stoneskin_ (wizard utility) + _Stalwart Guard_, so Davareth sticks with the fighter utility power.  He also picks up Battle Edge from Battle Mage, and chooses Weapon Focus:  Heavy Blades for his feat.

*Level 17:* _Vorpal Tornado_ (fighter encounter) provides an upgrade to _Sweeping Blow_.

*Level 18:*  Davareth decides he wants Heavy Blade Mastery early in his epic tier, so he puts a point into Dexterity.  The other point boosts Strength as that drives more powers than Intelligence (S 21 C 12 D 16 I 20 W 14 R 11).  For his feat, Davareth reacquires Quickdraw.

*Level 19:* _Evard's Black Tentacles_ (wizard daily) has nice synergy with Davareth's many push powers.  It swaps in for _Devastation's Wake_, which replaces _Rain of Steel_/_Stinking Cloud_.

*Level 20:*  Davareth gains his last paragon path benefit, _Closing Spell_ (battle mage daily).  For his feat, he selects Devastating Critical to combo with the feat he plans to take next level.

*Level 21:*  Time to choose an Epic Destiny.  Archmage is interesting, but one of its benefits (Arcane Spirit) is distinctly underpowered for Davareth.  Demigod helps to shore up the sacrificed point of Intelligence and has excellent powers to increase his staying power.  As a Demigod, Davareth increases his Strength and Intelligence by 2 points, in addition to the 1 point boost all of his stats receive (S 24 C 13 D 17 I 23 W 15 R 12).  For his feat, he chooses Heavy Blade Mastery.  He's willing to wait to pick up other epic feats naturally, so chooses not to retrain anything.

*Level 22:* _Time Stop_ (wizard utility) swaps in for _No Surrender_ (fighter utility), giving up _Blur_ and regaining _Stalwart Guard_.  Now primarily shieldless, Davaraeth also swaps out _Stalwart Guard_ for the lower level _Battle Awareness_.  For his feat, Davareth selects Epic Resurgence.

*Level 23:* _Warrior's Urging_ (fighter encounter) is a nice upgrade to _Come and Get It_.

*Level 24:*  Stat points into Strength and Intelligence, bumping his Intelligence modifier (S 25 C 13 D 17 I 24 W 15 R 12).  For his feat, Davareth selects Spell Accuracy to help manage his large-area blasts.  He also gains Divine Recovery from Demigod.

*Level 25:* _Necrotic Web_ (wizard daily) swaps in for _Reaper's Stance_ (fighter daily), which replaces _Unyielding Avalanche_.  Davareth holds on to the lower level _Shift the Battlefield_ for it's superior utility value to his focus.  He regains _Devastation's Wake_ and loses _Evard's Black Tentacles_.

*Level 26:*  Demigod provides _Divine Regeneration_ (demigod utility).  For his feat, Davareth selects Blind-Fight.

*Level 27:* _Cruel Reaper_ (fighter encounter) upgrades _Vorpal Tornado_.  Davareth holds on to the lower level _Thunderlance_ for it's excellent push ability.

*Level 28:*  Boost to Strength and to Wisdom (S 26 C 13 D 17 I 24 W 16 R 12).  This is Davareth's last stat increase, and a 25 Intelligence isn't much better than a 24.  For his feat, Davareth picks up Danger Sense.

*Level 29:* _Force the Battle_ (fighter daily) replaces _Shift the Battlefield_.

*Level 30:*  Demigod provides Divine Miracle, which renders Epic Resurgence largely obsolete.  Davareth retrains that feat to Triumphant Attack, and also picks up Arcane Mastery.

Final Build:

Str 26 Con 13 Dex 17 Int 24 Wis 16 Cha 12.
Powers: 
At Will:  Cleave, Sure Strike
Encounter:  Thunderwave, Thunderlance, Forceful Retort, Warrior's Urging, Cruel Reaper
Daily:  Closing Spell, Devastation's Wake, Necrotic Web, Force the Battle
Utility:  Battle Awareness, Unstoppable, Unbreakable, Arcane Rejuvination, Iron Warrior, Time Stop, Divine Regeneration

Feats:  Arcane Initiate, Novice Power, Acolyte Power, Adept Power, Ritual Caster, Weapon Focus:  Heavy Blades, Quickdraw, Iron Will, Heavy Blade Opportunity, Danger Sense, Devastating Critical, Arcane Reach, Armor Specialization: Scale, Arcane Mastery, Blind-Fight, Heavy Blade Mastery, Spell Accuracy, Triumphant Attack.

t~


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## Shazman (Jul 29, 2008)

This is the same WotC that has glaring typo errors in almost every product they produce, and makes example characters of prestige classes that don't even qualify for the prestige class by RAW.  I'd be more surprised if they actually put out such an article that didn't have serious errors in it.


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## Reaper Steve (Jul 29, 2008)

tiornys... thanks for sharing!


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## TerraDave (Jul 29, 2008)

tiornys: well done.


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## Xyl (Jul 29, 2008)

RigaMortus2 said:


> I didn't realize you could get sued for copy/pasting message board posts.
> 
> If it's just a courtesy thing, just mark me down as tactless...




I wouldn't call it "tactless", I'd call it "dishonest". If it isn't obvious that you didn't write it yourself, then you're passing off someone else's work as your own.


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## balard (Jul 29, 2008)

why did you got back quickdraw?


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## jelmore (Jul 29, 2008)

Shazman said:


> This is the same WotC that has glaring typo errors in almost every product they produce, and makes example characters of prestige classes that don't even qualify for the prestige class by RAW.  I'd be more surprised if they actually put out such an article that didn't have serious errors in it.




The typo thing is annoying, but it's hardly limited to WotC (or RPGs, or gaming). I've just learned to grit my teeth and ignore it.

I'm more concerned with significant revisions to the rules being released as "errata", such as the overall lowering of various skill and effect DCs and the revamp of skill challenges. You know there are people who will never hear of that errata and use the RAW in the core books to play 4e.

I think it would be incredibly helpful if someone on the design team write an article or two for Dragon or DDI detailing the changes in skill challenges; I'd rather have a separate document that I can refer to, or point people to, instead of crossing whole paragraphs out of my book or trying to remember which sections of which pages to ignore.


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## tiornys (Jul 30, 2008)

balard said:


> why did you got back quickdraw?




As mentioned when I swap it out for the first time, it facilitates the use of multiple wands to augment the character's selection of powers.  It has other benefits I didn't mention, such as allowing me to OA with a longsword (and therefore an at-will) even if I don't have it drawn, making it easier to use a thrown weapon of some kind, and letting me retrieve and drink a potion with the same action.

t~


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