# "Sudden" metamagic feats...am I missing something?



## Gnome (Aug 24, 2007)

I was taking a look at the "sudden" metamagic feats in Complete Arcane, and they seemed kind of overpowered, unless I'm missing a restriction (other than only once/day).  For example, sudden maximize only requires one other metamagic feat as a prereq, so a 3th-level wizard could presumably maximize a scorching ray with this feat, whereas a wizard would normally have to be 9th-level to prepare an empowered scorching ray.

Further, can these stack?  E.g. could a 3rd-level human wizard with a metamagic feat, sudden empower and sudden maximize let loose a scorching ray for 36 points of fire damage?


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## Wereserpent (Aug 24, 2007)

A Gnome Cleric IMC has Sudden Maximize and it has not seemed too overpowered.  He mostly uses it for either Cure spells or Inflict Spells.


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## Goolpsy (Aug 24, 2007)

Isn't maximize applied first? and then empower... ei. 4d6 -> 24 + empower -> 24 + 2d6 ?

anyway..  I always found Sudden Metamagic very very Weak.. Sure enought you can use it "Sudden" without increasing spell level,  but it is only once a day

If you do that.. you use 2 feats to blast... 1 monster per day ...  worth it?


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## Garnfellow (Aug 24, 2007)

I have a power gamer player whose invoker has taken all of the Sudden feats, and I don't think they are broken.

These feats do not stack, because applying them is a swift action, and only one swift action can be taken each round.


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## Nifft (Aug 24, 2007)

Garnfellow said:
			
		

> These feats do not stack, because applying them is a swift action, and only one swift action can be taken each round.



 I'm not seeing that restriction in the feat descriptions. Is it somewhere else in the book?

Thanks, -- N


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## Garnfellow (Aug 24, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> I'm not seeing that restriction in the feat descriptions. Is it somewhere else in the book?




I only know the versions from the Miniatures Handbook, but I think you might be right -- I can't find anything that says applying a Sudden metamagic is a swift, or for that matter, any action. Are there Sudden feats in the PHBII? Maybe I am crazy.


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## Uulbaan (Aug 24, 2007)

«Isn't maximize applied first? and then empower... ei. 4d6 -> 24 + empower -> 24 + 2d6 ?»

- Yes, that is the correct formula to apply Maximize + Empower.


- It is not a swift action.  However, it is still a metamagic, so it takes a Full action rather than a Standard action.


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## FEADIN (Aug 25, 2007)

I think they are "free action", only the Sudden Quicken seems limited, like the "standard" Quicken Spell, only one quickened spell per round (swift action).


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## Quartz (Aug 25, 2007)

It seems a little strange to me that you can take the Sudden X feat without taking the X feat first.


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## UltimaGabe (Aug 25, 2007)

Uulbaan said:
			
		

> It is not a swift action.  However, it is still a metamagic, so it takes a Full action rather than a Standard action.




No, they specifically don't increase the casting time or spell level.

Anyway, Sudden Metamagic feats are NOT overpowered. In fact, in my opinion, they're UNDER powered. True, you can use an empowered/maximized/whatever at an earlier level than you normally could, but it's ONCE per day, for an entire FEAT.


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## Infiniti2000 (Aug 25, 2007)

Gnome said:
			
		

> I was taking a look at the "sudden" metamagic feats in Complete Arcane, and they seemed kind of overpowered, unless I'm missing a restriction (other than only once/day).



 The reason they seem overpowered is because they provide two benefits, one of which breaks the normal limits on spell power.  The one benefit is that suddenness.  The other one is the unlimited spell power (no limit on spell level, whether it's above 9th or above your personal caster limit).



			
				Gnome said:
			
		

> For example, sudden maximize only requires one other metamagic feat as a prereq, so a 3th-level wizard could presumably maximize a scorching ray with this feat, whereas a wizard would normally have to be 9th-level to prepare an empowered scorching ray.



 You must have a typo here, but yes the idea is that the result is above his capability.



			
				Gnome said:
			
		

> Further, can these stack?  E.g. could a 3rd-level human wizard with a metamagic feat, sudden empower and sudden maximize let loose a scorching ray for 36 points of fire damage?



 As noted above, it would be 24+2d6, but close enough for government work.  And, yes, that could happen.  Sudden metamagic is normally reserved for the BBEG and the only way to curtail it is to 'trick' the PCs into thinking someone else is the BBEG (for the day).  That really sucks, though, so don't do it.  Either accept the fact that yor BBEG will/may go down easy or don't allow suddenness.


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## Infiniti2000 (Aug 25, 2007)

UltimaGabe said:
			
		

> Anyway, Sudden Metamagic feats are NOT overpowered. In fact, in my opinion, they're UNDER powered. True, you can use an empowered/maximized/whatever at an earlier level than you normally could, but it's ONCE per day, for an entire FEAT.



 I don't agree.  While I'm not sure I would really call them overpowered, I do think their effect is undesirable.  This is a similar issue as divine metamagic if you throw out the concept of sudden persistence (and yet I've seen that suggested).  I don't like the idea of breaking the spell power limit as its effects are hard to calculate.  Use sudden maximize against the goblins - no problem.  Always against the BBEG du jour - problem, especially if you're smart about it and use it effectively.


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Aug 25, 2007)

UltimaGabe said:
			
		

> Anyway, Sudden Metamagic feats are NOT overpowered. In fact, in my opinion, they're UNDER powered. True, you can use an empowered/maximized/whatever at an earlier level than you normally could, but it's ONCE per day, for an entire FEAT.




What if they couldn't break the limit but could be used three times per day? I think that would be much more responsible.


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## notjer (Aug 25, 2007)

I've thinking about to take sudden metamagic with my wizard/incantatrix which will result in 2-3 uses per day. Would it work good with instant metamagic and improved metamagic or am I missing a seriously flaw faul with my idea?


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## Quartz (Aug 25, 2007)

UltimaGabe said:
			
		

> No, they specifically don't increase the casting time or spell level.
> 
> Anyway, Sudden Metamagic feats are NOT overpowered. In fact, in my opinion, they're UNDER powered. True, you can use an empowered/maximized/whatever at an earlier level than you normally could, but it's ONCE per day, for an entire FEAT.




Which you can apply to any spell. On the fly. And it allows you to exceed your normal spell limits. A Sudden Maximised Disintegrate (240 HP!) or Meteor Swarm (144 HP + 48 HP), anyone? How about applying it to a memorised Empowered Disintegrate? Sudden Maximize on your Time Stop could be very useful.

Seems to me about right, though I think I'd mandate the normal metamagic feat as a prerequisite.


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## Christian (Aug 25, 2007)

(Psi)SeveredHead said:
			
		

> What if they couldn't break the limit but could be used three times per day? I think that would be much more responsible.




That's an alternate rule for the standard metamagic feats published in _Unearthed Arcana_. We've been using it in the campaign I play in, and I haven't seen any balance issues ...


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## kjenks (Aug 25, 2007)

UltimaGabe said:
			
		

> No, they specifically don't increase the casting time or spell level.




That depends on which version of the Sudden feats you use in your campaign.

The original Sudden feats from Miniatures Handbook had a rule that they don't increase the casting time for spontaneous casters.

The most recently published Sudden feats from Complete Arcane do not have that rule -- so they're not so sudden any more for spontaneous casters.


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## Maldor (Aug 25, 2007)

kjenks said:
			
		

> That depends on which version of the Sudden feats you use in your campaign.
> 
> The original Sudden feats from Miniatures Handbook had a rule that they don't increase the casting time for spontaneous casters.
> 
> The most recently published Sudden feats from Complete Arcane do not have that rule -- so they're not so sudden any more for spontaneous casters.





this is level of thought is awe inspiring i mean this is like saying well the FR book doesn't say that is has gravity so it must not

any fool can see the intent of the feat and to warp the intent to such a silly degee is just make the feat pointless if your going to do this you might as well just cut them out of the book


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## Goolpsy (Aug 25, 2007)

According to your argument, these feats are made specificly to sorcerors then? Because it enables them to apply metamagic without an increase in casting time?

According to the description... the Sudden feats should work just like the real ones, besides that they can only be used once per day, and does not increase slot level..

Sorcerors should still take a fullround to apply them, no?


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## kjenks (Aug 28, 2007)

Maldor said:
			
		

> this is level of thought is awe inspiring i mean this is like saying well the FR book doesn't say that is has gravity so it must not
> 
> any fool can see the intent of the feat and to warp the intent to such a silly degee is just make the feat pointless if your going to do this you might as well just cut them out of the book




Sigh. I point out a couple of facts and what do I get? Sarcasm and name-calling.

Ask your DM which versions of the feats are used in your campaign, then follow the rules your DM uses.

If your campaign uses the "most recently published rules" meta-rule, then the Complete Arcane version of these feats is for you (without the wording that decreases casting time). 

If your campaign uses sarcasm and name-calling to decide what the campaign rules are, I want no part of it.


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## Umbran (Aug 28, 2007)

Maldor said:
			
		

> any fool can see ...




...that the intent of The Rules for posting at EN World are designed to keep the place polite and civil.   

Suggestions that anyone who disagrees with you are thereby fools are not acceptable.  Please don't make such again.  If you feel a need to discuss this, please feel free to e-mail me, or any of the other mods.  Our addresses are in a post stickied to the top of the Meta forum.


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## akbearfoot (Aug 29, 2007)

*metamagic..*

I played a druid in a game where we used the metamagic variant from Arcana Unearthed.

Your feat is useable 3/day, does not need to be prepared ahead of time, and does not raise the level of the spell.  But it DOES raise the 'virtual level' of the spell to the appropriate spell leve, and if you can't normally cast a spell of that level, then you cant apply the metamagic to it.

IE, a 7th level wizard could use his Empower spell feat on a Scorching ray, spending his 2nd level spell slot and 1 use of the feat. Because he can cast 4th level spells.  But he could not empower his fireball spell or his Ice storm spell, because he can't cast 5th or 6th level spells yet.

I only ever took extend spell, and Empower spell, but they were very useful.

My most common tactic was to cast Exended Mass lesser vigor on the party, to do a TON of healing over time.  Empower works really well on the spike stones spell.  Huge area, and lots of little d8s if they want to get out of the area.

Breaking normal spell casting level limits seems to mess up a lot of peoples games...See metamagic rods and why so many people hate them.


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## Alchemist (Aug 29, 2007)

I played a wizard in our last campaign with the Sudden Maximize and Sudden Empower feats.  They worked great, and provided only some discomfort to our DM.  I think the best application I put them to was to cast True Strike on the previous round, then to SM and SE my Enervation, smoking the BBG for 4+1d2 negative levels.  Only drained 5, IIRC, but that -5 across the board softened him up enough that the fight went from very dangerous to challenging.

As a player, the only complaint I had was that it amplified the Vancian effect; once I had blown my sudden metamagics, I wasn't able to leverage any more of my spells for the rest of the day.  As a DM, I'm leaning towards the UA daily used metamagic variant instead of the standard usage; I'm the only person in our group to ever take metamagic feats and I'm certain it's because my group perceives that bumping up a spell isn't as good as a spell of the level it replaces.  We'll see if that variant works out for us.


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## Uulbaan (Aug 29, 2007)

On the Druid the sudden metamagic works nicely as well.  I took Sudden Maximize and Sudden Widen on my Druid.  It works well and it is not too powerful I think.  Since it is once a day you have to be careful about the time when to use it.

On the Druid, Sudden Maximise works well with Call Lightning.  Once you reach the level to get Flame Strike, the feat give you a nice option between a quick and wild powerful strike with Flame Strike or more over all damages with Call Lightning.

Sudden Widen works well with most Druid spell, especialy with Spike grow which enable you to cover an impressive area.  It can also be apply on Call Lightning to cover 4 squares instead of one single 5-ft square.


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