# Frank Mentzer, Tim Kask, Jim Ward and Chistopher Clarke form Eldritch Enterprises



## darjr (Nov 14, 2010)

Read it at Havards Blackmoor Blog: Eldritch Enterprises

They went and did it. They formed their own company.

I would love to see 'The Tower of Gygax'... uh.. I mean 'The Tower of the Mad Arch Mage'. Maybe that could be a kind of subscription like 'Dungeon a Day'?


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## Deuce Traveler (Nov 14, 2010)

I hope they do well.  It is a rough market.


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## havard (Nov 14, 2010)

Deuce Traveler said:


> I hope they do well.  It is a rough market.




Me too! With the interest in "Old School" material, and in the history and roots of the hobby in general, there very well could be a market for the people who actually were there forging D&D from the very beginning. 

-Havard

PS: Thanks for mentioning my blog, darjr!


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## Treebore (Nov 14, 2010)

With all the creativity contained in the minds of these guys I suspect they will do very well.


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## Treebore (Nov 14, 2010)

I found this extremely funny:

"Before even having a name, the company was criticized in the Grognardia blog for possibly not being Old School enough."

I wonder who at Grognardia thinks they are more old school industry professionals than these guys are?


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## JohnRTroy (Nov 14, 2010)

> I found this extremely funny:
> 
> "Before even having a name, the company was criticized in the Grognardia blog for possibly not being Old School enough."
> 
> I wonder who at Grognardia thinks they are more old school industry professionals than these guys are?




Grognardia is only one guy.  And people need to remember that James Maliszewski is writing what amounts to an *opinion column*, there's a lot of personal bias there, and I would not call him a true historian because of that.  I think a lot of readers forget that because he writes a lot and his blog is so popular.  

However, I've heard complaints elsewhere.  The complaint used is it's a bunch of "old guys getting the band back together", whatever that means.


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## Treebore (Nov 14, 2010)

Between playing with these guys at Cons, or listening to or reading interviews, I would say these "old guys" still have what it takes to make good stuff that I will want to buy.

So I for one am definitely going to ignore any such negativity.


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## Chainsaw (Nov 14, 2010)

I think that everyone who likes D&D (at least old school O/AD&D) wants them to succeed, _*generally speaking*_. I would not read too much into a few comments of "criticism" here or there by other old school guys. My brother and I fought a lot as kids, but that didn't mean we didn't want each other to do well. I think it would probably be wrong to think that JM or anybody else isn't ultimately supportive. Just my opinion based on what I've read in forums and blogs, of course.


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## jonesy (Nov 15, 2010)

I'm giddy as a school girl on prom night for Aquaria.

Omg, tmi!


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## MerricB (Nov 16, 2010)

Treebore said:


> I found this extremely funny:
> 
> "Before even having a name, the company was criticized in the Grognardia blog for possibly not being Old School enough."
> 
> I wonder who at Grognardia thinks they are more old school industry professionals than these guys are?




That wasn't the complaint. You can see the Grognardia post here.

In particular, James of Grognardia said: "Any definition of "Old School approach" that encompasses both _Savage Worlds_ and _Pathfinder_ is, I fear, so broad as to be meaningless", which referenced the original statement from Jim Ward when they were talking about the possibility of forming the company.

Jim Ward was also the man behind Fast Forward Entertainment, one of the true crash-and-burn stories of the d20 era, due to astonishingly bad product and little understanding of either the market or the OGL.

Of the four names forming the company, none of them have a good list of old-school design credits at TSR. James Ward has Metamorphosis Alpha and Gamma World, but little besides. Frank Mentzer is particularly notable for expanding the BX books to BECMI and for producing the "Red Box" Basic set, but I'm not particularly impressed by Needle, Egg of the Phoenix or his completion of the Temple of Elemental Evil. Tim Kask is... ahem... a design nonentity, who is particularly notable for his hatred of Dave Arneson. I'm not familiar with Chris Clark at all. (I'm not much the wiser after trying to research his previous products).

They may well be able to actually produce good product. I hope so. 

Cheers!


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## JoeGKushner (Nov 16, 2010)

I must spread some xp around... Sorry Merric.

I wasn't going to mention the whole Fast Forward thing. They did do a few products that had some innovation to them like the spiral bound book that was very easy to use and Orc Fest which was one of the best introduction adventurers I've seen. Dungeon World had some interesting concepts.

But I agree with Merric. Lots of useless content and lack of understanding of the core OGL/d20 SRD rules and overall one of the reasons why the d20 fad got as bad as it did even before the 3.5 bust.


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## mattcolville (Nov 16, 2010)

Wait, Christopher Clark, the dude behind Necromancer Games? I don't care how old school that dude is, he did well. It's ok if Jim Ward didn't know the market and the OGL, because Clark certainly did.

For me, two things are self-evident about this;

1: These guys have the chops to produce a lot of cool content.

2: They're going to fail spectacularly if they depend on any traditional publishing model for monetizing that content. 

If they make the mistake of thinking their product is books or PDFs, rather than the actual content they create, then they're already doomed. There's no market anymore. That era of the RPG publisher as a going concern is done. It's no 2002 any more, or 1996.


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## MerricB (Nov 16, 2010)

mattcolville said:


> Wait, Christopher Clark, the dude behind Necromancer Games? I don't care how old school that dude is, he did well. It's ok if Jim Ward didn't know the market and the OGL, because Clark certainly did.




Are you thinking of Clark Peterson, Matt?

Christopher Clark - there are two designers by that name. I suspect the one we're talking about is this one, who co-founded Hekaforge Productions with Gary Gygax and helped publish Lejendary Adventure.

EDIT: Hey, my 10,000th post! Cool! 

Cheers!


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## Keefe the Thief (Nov 16, 2010)

I love it that Grognardia is quickly becoming the No Mutants are Allowed of the gaming world. Love as in shake my head about it. 

Anyway, i have to agree with Merric: the founders (and i wish their company much success) are definitely from an old-school era, but i find many of their prior publications somewhat meh.


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## JamesM (Nov 16, 2010)

Treebore said:


> I wonder who at Grognardia thinks they are more old school industry professionals than these guys are?



No one said anything even close to this, so I'm not sure why it's being asserted, let alone now, more than a year after I made the original comments. I've actually had _nothing_ to say on this subject since August 2009, but I guess people enjoy trying to manufacture controversy where there is none.

Seriously, do people even bother to read what anyone writes anymore or do they simply rely on third hand reports? My criticisms of this endeavor were that I did not think, based on the information we had then, that it demonstrated those involved had a very good understanding either of the current RPG market generally or the old school niche in particular. I stand by that opinion, though, as I said back in 2009, I'll be happy to be proven wrong.


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## JamesM (Nov 16, 2010)

JohnRTroy said:


> Grognardia is only one guy.  And people need to remember that James Maliszewski is writing what amounts to an *opinion column*, there's a lot of personal bias there, and I would not call him a true historian because of that.  I think a lot of readers forget that because he writes a lot and his blog is so popular.



I'm not sure what bearing being a "true historian" has in this particular case, since I've never claimed to be such and anyone who actually reads my blog with any attention knows I am anything but unbiased.


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## JamesM (Nov 16, 2010)

Chainsaw said:


> I think it would probably be wrong to think that JM or anybody else isn't ultimately supportive. Just my opinion based on what I've read in forums and blogs, of course.



And your opinion would be correct. Unfortunately, there are many people for whom the expression of any skepticism, let alone criticism, of another's plans is tantamount to "negativity." I said in August 2009 and I say again now: I will be happy to be proven wrong in my opinion about the likely success of this venture. What's more, if I am mistaken, you can be sure I'll write about that fact on my blog, whereas I don't expect to get many apologies from the people lambasting me for daring to raise some legitimate questions.


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## JamesM (Nov 16, 2010)

Keefe the Thief said:


> I love it that Grognardia is quickly becoming the No Mutants are Allowed of the gaming world.



Hey, I love _Gamma World_ and _Metamophosis Alpha_ and say so regularly on my blog; I can't imagine why anyone would think I dislike mutants.


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## JeffB (Nov 16, 2010)

As much as I love OSR and old school products, I cannot say I'm very excited about this either based on the track records or the past products of the people involved.  

Jim Ward of course needs no intro to the D20 fans fam with FFE and his tirades on these boards and others whenever he is slightly critisized. Jim is also responsible for alot of absolute garbage product in the 2E days, and now seemingly has the C&C guys mesmerised by his "old school cred". Barring the flashes in the pan of MA/GW & G,DG,H/D&DG he has done little work to remember in a positive light.

Mentzer's claim to fame is editing out the BECMI as Merric stated, but again has no memorable writing of adventures or other OSR type products. Frankly, (no pun intended) I thought TOEE was awful. I really wish Gary had been able to complete/write that entire product.

Tim? Well Tim is an editor- and he's been GREAT for quotes in my sig lines over the years  I always loved his introductions in the LBBs and the AD&D books, and he did a great job with The Dragon, but again- what adventure/gaming material has he done of note?

I believe Chris Clark is the guy who was originally doing Lejendary Adventures, and used to post alot over at lejendary.com  I do believe I read some of his LA work about 10 years ago  (an adventure or something) and enjoyed it. So I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

I don't always agree with James Maliszewski, but I enjoy his column  more often than not, and in this case, (and not misunderstood/taken out of context like it seems to have been) he's right- PF & SW,  fine games they may on their own merit, are def not part of the OSR market. If the EE folks feel otherwise, then I would say they are definitely out of touch.


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## Dragonhelm (Nov 16, 2010)

Props on the new endeavor.  Creatively, they'll do great.  I just hope they have a good business plan to go with it.  Looking forward to seeing what they produce.




JamesM said:


> Seriously, do people even bother to read what anyone writes anymore or do they simply rely on third hand reports?




I read your article on Tracy Hickman.  You are entitled to your opinion, of course, and I'm entitled to disagree with that opinion.  The article and the hateful comments various other people posted was enough to tell me that Grognardia is a place that I do not wish to visit.


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## JamesM (Nov 16, 2010)

Dragonhelm said:


> I read your article on Tracy Hickman.  You are entitled to your opinion, of course, and I'm entitled to disagree with that opinion.  The article and the hateful comments various other people posted was enough to tell me that Grognardia is a place that I do not wish to visit.



I have no beef with anyone who disagrees, even strongly, _with what I actually wrote_; it's the intemperate reactions to things I never wrote that drive me batty.


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## ExploderWizard (Nov 16, 2010)

Just like any other producer of gaming material, I will let the product speak for itself.


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## Tharen the Damned (Nov 16, 2010)

JamesM said:


> I have no beef with anyone who disagrees, even strongly, _with what I actually wrote_; it's the intemperate reactions to things I never wrote that drive me batty.




Hah! In the Multiverse endless realities are possible. So there is a reality where you actually wrote these lines. Therefore these paraphrasings are correct somewhere.

Thinking about it, there must be a reality with a James M. who plays a Scimitar whielding Drow Ranger.


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## Beginning of the End (Nov 16, 2010)

JeffB said:


> he's right- PF & SW,  fine games they may on their own merit, are def not part of the OSR market. If the EE folks feel otherwise, then I would say they are definitely out of touch.




He's certainly right about that. But he's wrong in suggesting that anybody said they were. "Old school approach" with newer games isn't exactly a novel idea and the concept shouldn't be so incomprehensible to James M. One is instead left with the impression that he's unhappy because they aren't doing what he wants them to do, which is rather peevish.


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## jaerdaph (Nov 16, 2010)

I'm beginning to think that if something happens in the old school community without an "OH THE DRAMA!" moment, it didn't really happen at all...


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## TerraDave (Nov 16, 2010)

Did JamesM make like 5 posts on ENWorld! 


A sign of the apocalypse.


Not that that is a bad thing.


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## Grimstaff (Nov 16, 2010)

Dragonhelm said:


> I read your article on Tracy Hickman.  You are entitled to your opinion, of course, and I'm entitled to disagree with that opinion.  The article and the hateful comments various other people posted was enough to tell me that Grognardia is a place that I do not wish to visit.




You mean this article, where James allegorically suggests that Hickman "saved" D&D for a whole generation of fans?


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## jonesy (Nov 16, 2010)

TerraDave said:


> A sign of the apocalypse.
> 
> Not that that is a bad thing.



Apocalypse Wow - Television Tropes & Idioms
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NKqhqIN3Zc]YouTube - Terminator The end of the world[/ame]


Oh, excuse me. This fits better:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjSFujG6Uhg]YouTube - WIZARDS - 1977 - TRAILER[/ame]


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## JamesM (Nov 16, 2010)

TerraDave said:


> Did JamesM make like 5 posts on ENWorld!



Madness!

Truth is I'm not much of a forum-user and never have been. With the exception of Fin's OD&D Discussion, I rarely visit forums, let alone post to them. But I was getting a lot of hits to my blog from this thread and I was curious to see what it was all about, so here I am.

Don't worry: I won't stay.


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## jaerdaph (Nov 16, 2010)

nevermind...


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## jaerdaph (Nov 16, 2010)

JamesM said:


> Don't worry: I won't stay.




And that would be a shame.


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## darjr (Nov 16, 2010)

JamesM said:


> Madness!
> 
> Truth is I'm not much of a forum-user and never have been. With the exception of Fin's OD&D Discussion, I rarely visit forums, let alone post to them. But I was getting a lot of hits to my blog from this thread and I was curious to see what it was all about, so here I am.
> 
> Don't worry: I won't stay.




I hope you do. I appreciate that you have stopped by.

I hope the new company succeeds and I'm looking forward too what they produce.

At some level I think the thing they should do as a company is run Tower of Gygax or something similar for conventions and other events. Tower of Gygax at GenCon was a ton of fun.


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## Corathon (Nov 16, 2010)

I guess that its a matter of taste, but I liked a lot of the stuff that Frank Mentzer wrote. While the majority of the  Fast Forward stuff was pretty awful, Gammaworld and Metamorphosis Alpha were pretty cool. Tim Kask I know only as a Dragon editor, and the other fellow I don't know at all. The residual goodwill for the 1st 3 men is enough to get me to give their stuff a try, but, ultimately, its my opinion of the products and not the creators that will determine what I buy.


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## JohnRTroy (Nov 16, 2010)

JamesM said:


> I'm not sure what bearing being a "true historian" has in this particular case, since I've never claimed to be such and anyone who actually reads my blog with any attention knows I am anything but unbiased.




To be fair though, at one point you *did* call yourself a historian in your "about me" box/section (though you've changed that), or sometime the term "explores the history", etc.  The only reason I mentioned that comment is because I think a lot of people combine some of what you do with your very formal style and use of analytical neologisms like "Golden Age of Gaming", "Gygaxian naturalism", etc., and see you in that light.  I was just reminding people that at the end of the day, Grognardia is more or less the equivalent of an opinion column.  

(I'd actually like to see some real historical analysis of the gaming hobby, similar to the great 40 years of Gen Con book that Robin Laws wrote which to me evokes the work of Studs Turkel.)

Doesn't mean I don't enjoy the site.  I just think people should occasionally be reminded of that, as in this day and age people blur opinion with fact or news.  And I was mostly responding to the guy who said "those guys", which shows that there's a perception that you have staff and are like a newspaper.


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## JamesM (Nov 16, 2010)

JohnRTroy said:


> To be fair though, at one point you *did* call yourself a historian in your "about me" box/section (though you've changed that), or sometime the term "explores the history", etc.



In my earliest profile, which I haven't used since 2008, back when very few people read the blog, I believe I called myself a "student of philosophy and intellectual history," which was a reference to my academic background, nothing more.



> The only reason I mentioned that comment is because I think a lot of people combine some of what you do with your very formal style and use of analytical neologisms like "Golden Age of Gaming", "Gygaxian naturalism", etc., and see you in that light.  I was just reminding people that at the end of the day, Grognardia is more or less the equivalent of an opinion column.



Maybe I'm weird, but my natural inclination is to assume that _everything_ on the Net is the equivalent of an opinion column -- especially the stuff written by guys trying to sell you something.


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## havard (Nov 16, 2010)

While I do not always agree with James' bias, I have always appreciated his analytical approach and many of his observations are very interesting. This is why I often refer to his comments in my own blog, sometimes in agreement and sometimes in disagreement. 

-Havard


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## jennanorm (Nov 16, 2010)

*Mentzer as a DM*

This past February, I had the pleasure of playing 2 adventures written and run by Frank Mentzer at a Totalcon in Massachusetts.  I'm old enough to know when D&D was old school, and there's no one out there more old school (or talented) then he is.  His take on gaming is that everyone at the table should be having fun, and the rules should never get in the way of that.


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## crazycongirl (Nov 16, 2010)

jennanorm said:


> This past February, I had the pleasure of playing 2 adventures written and run by Frank Mentzer at a Totalcon in Massachusetts. I'm old enough to know when D&D was old school, and there's no one out there more old school (or talented) then he is. His take on gaming is that everyone at the table should be having fun, and the rules should never get in the way of that.




Better than that, Frank Mentzer and Tim Kask will both be attending TotalCon 25 this coming February 2011 to run a full Old School RPG area and are sponsoring the convention through Eldritch Ent!!  I've spent time with Frank.  He is amazing and I can't wait to see what he and the gang have created through their new company.


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## MoxieFu (Nov 16, 2010)

Dangit! After that first page I was all set to post:

"Someone is WRONG on the internet!"

Now on the second page everybody has to get all nice, and reasonable, and respectable!

I guess I just can't trust ENWorld to get my tabloidal fix...



Thanks guys!


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## jaerdaph (Nov 17, 2010)

I only read about a dozen blogs daily, about half of which are RPG related. GROGNARDIA is one of those blogs. Like anything, sometimes I agree with what James says, sometimes I don't, but either way it's always enlightening and an enjoyable read.


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## JohnRTroy (Nov 17, 2010)

My thoughts on how the men will do would be the following--and I'm not rating the subjective quality of the work but their ability to meet deadlines, etc.  

Frank Mentzer.  He's the best guy I've seen of the lot--he was pretty disciplined with the RPGA and I saw him do a good job creating the short-lived fanzine for Mythus when Gary needed his help.

Jim Ward.  There's no denying that this guy has mixed feelings from some people.  I think the whole thing with FFE was not understanding the basics of a quality 3E product (as opposed to writing like it was still 2e).  I think he has the writing discipline and he obviously knows how to meet deadlines.

Tim Kask.  No real idea.  I think he's got talent but he's more or less been a background figure, and he can have a bit of an acerbic temperament that turns some people off.  But he obviously had experience with editing.

Chris Clark.  On the one hand, he worked well with Gary.  But on the other hand, I'd be concerned if he's actually going to handle the publishing side of things.  A lot of LA stuff got delayed under his watch and the post core books suffered from some very poor production values--such as art that looked pixelated or via a dot matrix printer(!).  I can understand if he was undercapitalized but TLG seemed to do a much better job, publishing Gygax stuff he wrote later than manuscripts finished a long time ago.  Creatively, he's fine, but I'd be concerned about his publishing pedigree.


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## DaveMage (Nov 17, 2010)

As long as the company doesn't turn out to be Fast Forward Games 2, then I'll look forward to seeing what they come up with.

However, the bar set by Frog God Games/Necromancer Games (which caters to Pathfinder and Swords & Wizardry fans) is pretty high, so we'll see if they can approach that level of quality.  

I remain skeptical, but intrigued.


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## JoeGKushner (Nov 17, 2010)

jennanorm said:


> This past February, I had the pleasure of playing 2 adventures written and run by Frank Mentzer at a Totalcon in Massachusetts.  I'm old enough to know when D&D was old school, and there's no one out there more old school (or talented) then he is.  His take on gaming is that everyone at the table should be having fun, and the rules should never get in the way of that.




And this is a fantastic thing to do as a GM.

As a producer of adventurers for a rules based system that is based on certain assumptions? Putting a 5K gem in a 1st level barbarian's shoe probably isn't going to cut it.

There are worlds of differences between running an awesome game and providing advice and material that others can use to run an awesome game.


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## mattcolville (Nov 17, 2010)

MerricB said:


> Are you thinking of Clark Peterson, Matt?
> 
> Christopher Clark - there are two designers by that name. I suspect the one we're talking about is this one, who co-founded Hekaforge Productions with Gary Gygax and helped publish Lejendary Adventure.




Ah, Clark Peterson IS who I was thinking of, thanks.


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## Mythmere1 (Nov 18, 2010)

DaveMage said:


> However, the bar set by Frog God Games/Necromancer Games (which caters to Pathfinder and Swords & Wizardry fans) is pretty high, so we'll see if they can approach that level of quality.




From talks with Frank and Tim, I think they will come out with good material; this is an element of the business they know how to do. I can't speak as to Jim Ward or anyone else, but I've talked with Tim and Frank.

When they started this project a year or so ago, I also think that they (Frank) understood that the market had changed, and that the digital side of it was crucial. However -- at that time -- I don't think they had altogether developed a workable business model yet based on that general knowledge. That's no crime, since Frank and Tim hadn't been involved in RPG publishing for decades, and the market is utterly different for a start-up company.

Frank called me some months ago (along with calling several other small publishers) to discuss their company. Mainly I think it was to get a sense for whether they were getting into a cutthroat environment or a relatively collegial environment, but he was also interested in getting a sense for how various publishers have approached the old-school market. I don't mean any of that in a bad way - he wasn't trawling for inside information or anything, just picking up a general picture of things in a completely acceptable and polite way.

So, they aren't approaching this with the idea that they know everything about business already; I think those early discussions about capitalization and sales were the starting-point, and have been revised since.

One other aspect of the conversation was definitely information-gathering, and that was on the topic of retro-clones, especially Swords & Wizardry since in that case the retro-clone is essentially the only way to get a version of the original rules. Their business plan has always turned upon the idea of being able to reach into more than one game system, but Tim Kask, especially, is writing for 0e, which is what Swords & Wizardry clones. So there is a certain "extra factor" in terms of how they work with Swords & Wizardry.

To what degree they will end up working with Bill Webb - Frog God Games - Swords & Wizardry isn't yet clear, if there will be any coordination at all beyond the fact that their materials will be compatible with Swords & Wizardry. Most likely, there won't be a direct co-operative connection at the production level, but I think both companies will play up the fact that their 0e/Swords & Wizardry product lines are essentially a single slate of compatible material. That will give them better access to the Swords & Wizardry players as customers, and it will also continue to add to the "street cred" of Swords & Wizardry as a game with strong publisher support. It's good for both sides of the equation, and I think Frank and I both recognized that aspect of the discussion.

I will be interested to see how generic they try to make the modules; I definitely think that the Frog God Games model -- picking only a couple of systems, and writing 2 versions that are specifically design-tooled for the mechanisms and game-assumptions of those systems -- is the strongest model for quality.


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## Grimstaff (Nov 18, 2010)

Very cool inside peek, Matt, thanks for sharing!


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## havard (Nov 18, 2010)

Thanks for sharing Mythmere!

-Havard


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## Qwillion (Nov 19, 2010)

I do hope they do well. This is a hard market for niche products as I well know. 

I myself have wanted to do a patronage project for the "Old School" niche, as we have a freelancer on staff who loves these types of games, but there has never been time. 

Who knows what the future holds.


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## ExploderWizard (Nov 20, 2010)

Mythmere1 said:


> I will be interested to see how generic they try to make the modules; I definitely think that the Frog God Games model -- picking only a couple of systems, and writing 2 versions that are specifically design-tooled for the mechanisms and game-assumptions of those systems -- is the strongest model for quality.




This would be a smart move. Trying to support too many systems that are fairly close in design is too much extra work for too little return. 

When designing products for an old school DM target market, it's good to remember that the idea of modification, and conversion, are not foreign concepts. As an experienced DM I would certainly rather take a well designed product for a single system and convert it to suit my needs than have the thing cluttered with several sets of mechanics taking up the space of other possible content.


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## Mark CMG (Nov 21, 2010)

Best of luck to Mentzer, Kask, Ward, and Clarke with their new venture! 




TerraDave said:


> Did JamesM make like 5 posts on ENWorld!
> 
> 
> A sign of the apocalypse.





_He should love my old school new game AP&Pocalypse . . . _


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## TerraDave (Nov 22, 2010)

jaerdaph said:


> I only read about a dozen blogs daily, about half of which are RPG related. GROGNARDIA is one of those blogs. Like anything, sometimes I agree with what James says, sometimes I don't, but either way it's always enlightening and an enjoyable read.




A fine blog indeed. And frequently updated. 



As for this idea of playing D&D with mostly just the 3lbbs....thats something else entirely.


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## Mark CMG (Nov 22, 2010)

TerraDave said:


> As for this idea of playing D&D with mostly just the 3lbbs....thats something else entirely.





When the 3lbbs first were published, some of the people who played in the games I played (including me) were already familiar with Chainmail (and many other wargames) so it is difficult for me to say thirty-six years later if someone could have played with the 3lbbs alone, with no prior gaming experience, etc. but I doubt it.


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## Ourph (Nov 23, 2010)

So, does anyone know if Eldritch Enterprises has any preview material that fans can check out?


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## Mythmere1 (Nov 23, 2010)

Ourph said:


> So, does anyone know if Eldritch Enterprises has any preview material that fans can check out?




They are still working on a website, and I haven't heard of any preview material yet. There were a few copies of Tim Kask's module write-up printed for North Texas RPG Con, but as far as I know those were sold, mostly to collectors, and aren't "in print" in any form yet.

Summary: I don't think so.


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## Treebore (Nov 23, 2010)

JamesM said:


> No one said anything even close to this, so I'm not sure why it's being asserted, let alone now, more than a year after I made the original comments. I've actually had _nothing_ to say on this subject since August 2009, but I guess people enjoy trying to manufacture controversy where there is none.
> 
> Seriously, do people even bother to read what anyone writes anymore or do they simply rely on third hand reports? My criticisms of this endeavor were that I did not think, based on the information we had then, that it demonstrated those involved had a very good understanding either of the current RPG market generally or the old school niche in particular. I stand by that opinion, though, as I said back in 2009, I'll be happy to be proven wrong.





Yeah, I went by third hand accounts. I quit reading your blog because I disagreed with too much of what you said for it to be enjoyable. 

But I love the comments in this thread. Like Jim Ward's Metamorphosis Alpha and Gamma World aren't much in the way of creds? 

I for one liked a lot of Fast Forwards books, the ONLY real problem they had was an inability to follow the OGL and had to destroy a lot of product, which is what put them out of business. Everything else would have improved if they had the time.

People criticize Tim Kask as a designer. Well, your probably right. I think the reason he is on board is he is a creative guy and has a proven track record as being a pretty good editor. Something a GOOD company needs to have, just ask any RPG publisher.

I agree about Chris Clarke, but I don't know about the actual hurdles he had to over come with the Lejendary books, so he may actually be pretty good, and if nothing else I am sure he learned a lot.

They better have Frank be their public face, though. Both Jim and Tim have a hard time watching what they say and how they say it. Something that will tank their company fast in todays environment.

Still, I am looking forward to seeing if they even get off the ground. They already face one big hurdle with how sick Jim is. Since it sounds like they have a strong core team I am hopeful they will prosper.


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## Mark CMG (Nov 24, 2010)

We were rescuing young NPCized versions of the Gygax kids from the Ice Caverns at the last GaryCon.


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## Forgemeister (Nov 26, 2010)

Couple of things...

It's Chris "Clark", and yes, its the guy that worked with GG on the Lejendary Adventure line, and wrote a few generic adventures with Gary back in the 90s.

I also have written a few non-rpg titles over the years.

I don't know that any of us (myself, Jim, Tim, or Frank) think that we are the 'greatest group of Old Skool gamers left in one place' - in fact, that is not the reason we're all working together under what is admittedly an OS banner.  Anyone assuming that the formation of this company is all about the marquis value is misinterpreting the intent of our little enclave.

As a group. we like rules light gaming.  Player, and GM-empowered gaming that is unrestricted by codification beyond that needed for organized play.

In short, its about the role playing, not the rules.  Anything Eldritch produces will be readily adaptable to whatever system you wish to play.

I don't often post here at EW, but I did want to explain who I am.... and no "e" at the end gang; "Clark", just like the station and the candy bar.

You can find out a bit more about me here, if you're interested:
www.fuzzyheroes.com

All of what is posted here, btw, is my personal opinion, and should not be considered by any stretch to reflect the views of Eldritch Ent. or the individual views of Tim, Jim, or Frank.  

Hope this clarifies...

XXOOCC
Chris Clark
Eldritch Ent.
(and Inner City Games Designs)


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## Treebore (Nov 26, 2010)

"As a group. we like rules light gaming. Player, and GM-empowered gaming that is unrestricted by codification beyond that needed for organized play.

In short, its about the role playing, not the rules. Anything Eldritch produces will be readily adaptable to whatever system you wish to play."


Sounds perfect to me!


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## GreyLord (Nov 26, 2010)

I don't see why people are saying what they are, I see Ward as a good designer who has done some pretty good stuff...I never saw his FFE stuff, but one bad thing that came out (if it was bad, I didn't see it) doesn't make a bad designer.  There are MANY bad designs that come out all the time from good game designers.

I look forward to seeing what these guys put out, if it interests me, I'll buy it, and if it doesn't I won't.  It's that simple, and that's what the market is all about.  

I think Ward has a great insight into the hobby and what is and has gone on, the same goes for Mentzer, and others.  It should be interesting to see what they come up with and how they integrate it for different systems, or if they make different things for different systems...or whatever approach they take.


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## jdrakeh (Nov 27, 2010)

I am cautiously optimistic (FFE really _was_ a complete disaster in all possible ways) and wish these fellows the best of luck.


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## jdrakeh (Nov 27, 2010)

GreyLord said:


> I never saw his FFE stuff, but one bad thing that came out (if it was bad, I didn't see it) doesn't make a bad designer.




It wasn't one bad thing. It was a whole product line of them. FFE products were panned almost _universally_. I personally thought that they had some neat ideas, but the mechanics showed a clear lack of understanding when it came to the d20 system, the production values tended toward the low end, and the OGL was not followed by FFE for many of the products.


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## Maggan (Nov 27, 2010)

Mythmere1 said:


> I think those early discussions about capitalization and sales were the starting-point, and have been revised since.




I think that's a wise decision, should it be true. But on the other hand it would have been interesting to see what they could have done with a company capitalised to the extent that was mentioned then.

I wish them the same luck that I wish anyone starting a new business. Because Frank Mentzer is involved, I will take an extra look at their offerings.

So good luck to them, and I hope they wow me with high quality stuff.

/M


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## Vigilance (Nov 28, 2010)

I love how Red Box D&D, Metamorphosis Alpha, Gamma World and Temple of Elemental Evil are dismissed by people as "no significant design credits".

No wait, I hate that. 

Whether this venture flies or not, these guys definitely have shown chops. Just because they never churned out 1,000,000 words in a year like writers do these days, doesn't diminish the great stuff they did write.


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## Vigilance (Nov 28, 2010)

This post really blew me away, I just have to address it.



MerricB said:


> Of the four names forming the company, none of them have a good list of old-school design credits at TSR.James Ward has Metamorphosis Alpha and Gamma World, but little besides.




You forgot Gods, Demigods and Heroes and its AD&D descendant, Deities and Demigods.

So, "all" Jim Ward did as a writer was Metamorphosis Alpha, Gamma World and Deities and Demigods. 

Books I own, run and reference today, 30 some odd years after they were written. 

I know its been the new hotness to bag on him since Fast Forward but since we're specifically talking about "old school design credits" here, I think if your name isn't Gygax, Arneson, Perrin or Miller that Jim Ward might be the next most significant designer of old-school games. 

Certainly not worthy of being summarily dismissed. 



> Frank Mentzer is particularly notable for expanding the BX books to BECMI and for producing the "Red Box" Basic set, but I'm not particularly impressed by Needle, Egg of the Phoenix or his completion of the Temple of Elemental Evil.




So, if we ignore Red Box, BECMI and Temple of Elemental Evil, he's not really that significant.

Got it. 



> Tim Kask is... ahem... a design nonentity, who is particularly notable for his hatred of Dave Arneson.




Leaving aside his status as "first full-time employee of TSR", which Kask was, and I'd be willing to guess he wasn't making Gary's coffee... 

Kask isn't a writer, he's a developer and editor.

Specifically, he was a developer/editor of Basic D&D and AD&D, and first editor of Dragon Magazine, running the most significant gaming publication in history for its first three years. 

A) I call those very significant credits on their own and B) given the state of most books editing, I think having an honest to god editor in the company is a PLUS, not a MINUS.


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## jaerdaph (Nov 28, 2010)

What's the Matter with Kids Today?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wCXr_6wgns]YouTube - Bye Bye Birdie - What's the Matter With Kids Today[/ame]


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## Forgemeister (Nov 29, 2010)

Well said, Vigilance.  By the same token, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and any opinion on published rpg material is by its very nature, subjective.  (IOW, there are no wrong answers when it comes to opinions).

Tim is actually a fairly gifted writer, although there is no vast quantity of his work that the average rpg fan will have had access to (pardon the grammar).  I have been priviledged to read a fair helping of his unpublished material, and I think I would qualify as a fan of his work.

Frank's writing is mind-bendingly different and inciteful.  I love running his adventures.

...and I am a huge fan of Jim's work as well.

I have written some good stuff... and some bad.  Wiriting gaming material is a learning process.  (Considering strictly rpg work) Go back to my early work, like the Inner City rpg, and its pretty attrocious (fun, but badly written).  On the other hand, I am pretty proud of the adventures and sourcebooks I wrote working with Gary on the Lejendary Adventure material (A Problem of Manors, Terekaptra, Enclave, the Lejendary Earth sourcebooks, etc), and the early adventures I wrote with Gary (A Challenge of Arm's and the Ritual of the Golden Eyes) were pretty good, although perhaps poorly presented.

Will Eldritch Ent. material absolutely "be your cup of tea" no matter what your rpg proclivity?  I doubt that... but I do believe that the products we are planning will be unique, and innovative, in the current market (although they should remind gaming grognards of a bygone era in role playing, IMO.)

ALL FOUR OF US are certainly grateful to anyone that has taken the time to read and play our previous works.  I guarantee you all, however, that the best work any of us will do is that which we have yet to publish under the Eldritc banner.  

In short, "Our best work will be our next work."  

...and that's how it should always be, IMO.

XXOOCC

Christopher Clark
Eldritch Ent.
(and Inner City Games Designs at Untitled Document)


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## MerricB (Nov 29, 2010)

Chris, if I might ask: what sort of products are you planning on?

Adventures?
Rules?
Campaign Settings?
Supplemental? (by which I mean things like books of magic items or spells, which don't change the rules of the game or are tied to a setting, but add to the options available).

Cheers!


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## Vigilance (Nov 30, 2010)

Forgemeister said:


> Well said, Vigilance.  By the same token, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and any opinion on published rpg material is by its very nature, subjective.  (IOW, there are no wrong answers when it comes to opinions).




I guess my only response to this would be that if someone still cares about a game book thirty years after it's written, I think we can begin to speak objectively to its quality.

I mean, there has never been a 10 year span without some major game company, either TSR, WOTC or a third party wanting to do something with Gamma World. 

We can't say that about games such as Boot Hill or Top Secret (also fine games for the record).

And Temple of Elemental Evil has been revisited in module form several times, including Monte Cook's "Return", and has been turned into a video game.

Any video game companies clamoring to convert a Paladin in Hell? Rary the Traitor?


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## Grayscale (Dec 2, 2010)

Looking forward to fruitful productivity!

D&D and a lot of other cultural folk arts develop alongside real people's lives and depend on a certain level of respect, that I think has been worked out fairly well through posts on various forums, blogs, etc., and I'm really just looking forward to what everybody is up to creatively.  There are many formats that media can take, publishing is a business, I'd like to hear more from EE.


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## prosfilaes (Dec 2, 2010)

Vigilance said:


> We can't say that about games such as Boot Hill or Top Secret (also fine games for the record).




That's comparing apples and oranges; except for D&D, and some FGU RPGs that are eternally in print, no setting-free games survive from the early era of  RPGs. The elements that 21st century editions of Gamma World copy from the original and the same elements that GURPS Old West "copied" from Boot Hill.


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## Vigilance (Dec 3, 2010)

prosfilaes said:


> That's comparing apples and oranges; except for D&D, and some FGU RPGs that are eternally in print, no setting-free games survive from the early era of  RPGs. The elements that 21st century editions of Gamma World copy from the original and the same elements that GURPS Old West "copied" from Boot Hill.




And yet, people want to make games called "Gamma World" and "Metamorphosis Alpha", and not games called "Boot Hill".

Or put another way, the name Gamma World still carries weight after 30 years. That's why it continues to exist as a brand. The name Boot Hill does not, and so it doesn't.

In fact, companies have PAID for the right to call their game Gamma World, or to call their computer game Temple of Elemental Evil but not the others I mentioned.

And just because Top Secret, for example, didn't have a setting, doesn't mean it couldn't have been used for branding purposes. If AEG thought the Top Secret name on their RPG would have moved more units than creating a new brand (Spycraft), they could have paid Wizards for the right to call their d20 spy game Top Secret, just as White Wolf paid for the Gamma World name.

That seems pretty apples to apples to me.


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## Mythmere1 (Dec 3, 2010)

Actually, it's not entirely apples to apples, but the difference has nothing to do with gaming: Boot Hill and Top Secret are relatively generic titles (Boot Hill less so), compared to "Gamma World" and "Metamorphosis Alpha." The first two are less valuable titles in terms of intellectual property regardless of the quality of the underlying game.

So, a later company's lower level of interest in the titles Boot Hill and Top Secret can be attributed - possibly, and at least in part -- to the game's chosen title to a certain degree. OTOH, it might be just what you suggest, but there's the potential that it has nothing to do with anything other than the nature of the titles.


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## Longtooth Studios (Dec 30, 2010)

I was taught that you should always stay on the path in pursuit of your dreams. With every failure, you learn another way not to do something and with every success you get a chance to refill the motivation reservoir and keep forging ahead.

With the years these guys have behind them, they have certainly learned enough along the way to have something to offer.  

I have found success and failure in my own ventures, but I stay at it and I learn more every step of the way. 

There is no patent on creativity and no one has sole right to innovation. 

So I say cheers to Eldritch Enterprises, and I hope that they make such waves in the gaming community that we can all share in their inspiration and success!


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## PeelSeel2 (Dec 31, 2010)

Longtooth Studios said:


> I was taught that you should always stay on the path in pursuit of your dreams. With every failure, you learn another way not to do something and with every success you get a chance to refill the motivation reservoir and keep forging ahead.
> 
> With the years these guys have behind them, they have certainly learned enough along the way to have something to offer.
> 
> ...




Go!


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## shadzar (Jan 15, 2011)

I know this may be a bit of a necro, but did the guys ever find anyone to help them with any sort of website? or was there a name problem with some record label or soemthign that prevented it?


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## Argyle King (Jan 15, 2011)

MerricB said:


> Chris, if I might ask: what sort of products are you planning on?
> 
> Adventures?
> Rules?
> ...





I'm curious about this as well.  I'm not nearly as familiar with the older products as many people here on Enworld are (growing up in a small rural town during the D&D is the devil's game era didn't make learning the game easy,)  so I am unsure of what to expect.


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## havard (Jan 16, 2011)

Johnny3D3D said:


> I'm curious about this as well.  I'm not nearly as familiar with the older products as many people here on Enworld are (growing up in a small rural town during the D&D is the devil's game era didn't make learning the game easy,)  so I am unsure of what to expect.





At this point, I think they are still considering a wide range of product types. Personally, I am very interested in seeing Frank Mentzer's Aquaria setting being published. In any case, I expect the company to build on the strengths and specialities of those involved. 

Rumour has it some products from Eldritch Enterprises might see the light of day in the second half of 2011. 

-Havard


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## Forgemeister (Sep 14, 2011)

I am, for the most part, writing adventures for EE.  I have a formula for these (I can hear the groans already!) that causes them to be either stand-alone, or interconnected into a mini-campaign series (they work either way).  I have already submitted my first adventure, _*Forest of Deceit*_, and it has gone into "the can" for the company - it awaits a thorough review of ready-to-go products before a determination is made as to an actual release schedule.

Jim also wrote a truly incredible space adventure that can be used with (IMHO) any number of systems including Traveller, MA, Star Frontiers, etc.  I worked with him extensively on it, and its really good.  That particular production is actually fully print-ready, and is also "in the can".  I'll leave it to Jim to spill further details on that one as its his project.

To return to the actual question...  I will be writing rpg adventures and source material for EE, as well as overseeing much of the production.  I continue to write board, card, and rpg games under the Inner City Games Designs banner as well, and there is a great possibility of genial overlap on the rpg front between things that will be released by ICGD, and projects I present to EE.  Nothing is graven in stone there, but its all very friendly (much like the relationship I maintain with the Troll Lords during their stint as "the place to get LA stuff - they re-printed several of my LA adventures under TLG).

So... I have a couple of other adventures that go with _*Forest of Deceit*_ (3 to be exact) as well as a campaign center adventure - a town named _*Namryr.*_  That's all targeted towards Eldritch.  I am also working with the entire group on a sourcebook that shall currently remain nameless.   Lastly, on the Eldritch front, I am the main editor for Jim's stuff.  I will "say this on that"...

If you ever liked Jim's stuff, this is some of the best work he has ever done.

On the ICGD front, I am finishing a new near-future space travel rpg called *Lance*, and we are game testing a new gladitorial microgame called *Lutus*.  

I am also writing at least one 1st Ed. adventure for Gary Con entitlted, *False Prints*.

Life's pretty full, ya'know?

Tell me what I left out... informationally, and thanks for asking.

XXOOCC


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## Forgemeister (Sep 14, 2011)

Sorry it took so long to reply....
XXOOCC


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## Corathon (Sep 15, 2011)

Any idea when these items will be available for purchase?


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## Frank Mentzer (Mar 28, 2012)

Corathon said:


> Any idea when these items will be available for purchase?



Very soon, Grasshopper. ;> Chris is on it. Look for 'em at the usual suspects (such as DriveThruRPG).

Don't bother with EldritchEnt.com just yet. We're having it fixed. :/ Eventually you'll be able to get stuff there as well.

Frank M


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## UselessTriviaMan (Mar 29, 2012)

Excellent! Mr. Mentzer, is there any chance you'll be giving us a sneak peek at XenoCon?


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## Frank Mentzer (Mar 29, 2012)

Anbody near Davenport IA? Within shootin' range? Like 4 hrs? Or--
Chicago Bloomington, Madison/Milwaukee, St Louis, Kansas City?

The event is Xenocon. Worth checking out.
It's their first year, tho. So for a (notably low) admission fee you can be the monsters and attack their system, so they can earn the XP to become veteran conorgs by next year.


Public con contact is wes.dau (via gmail). See link upthread from UTrivMan for detailed con info. Speaking of whom...



UselessTriviaMan said:


> Mr. Mentzer, is there any chance you'll be giving us a sneak peek at XenoCon?



First off, it's Frank. Not Mister. Thanks for the respect, and now let's move on as fellow gamers.


I am honored by my recent promotion in the XenoCon plans; I was just dropping by, now I'm GoH. (You can ignore their hyperbole about me, too.)

Copies of our new stuff (Eldritch Ent.) will be onsite at Xeno. We're about to start general sales, tho, so you'll be able to find us at the usual suspects. And without going to Iowa.  :dukl:

F

(In WI a dukl is a chuckle-quack)


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## nedjer (Mar 29, 2012)

Frank Mentzer said:


> First off, it's Frank. Not Mister.




Too right - don't settle for anything less than Sir


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## Deuce Traveler (Mar 30, 2012)

But now that Frank is so high ranking, does that mean his products will come with his excellent pastries?  I know the pastry shop was sold, but I'm sure the mad baker still has his skills.


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## Frank Mentzer (Mar 30, 2012)

Deuce Traveler said:


> does that mean his products will come with his excellent pastries?



Contrary to popular scuttlebut, I don't bake. I taste. My wife Debbie created all that good stuff. (She still does a little, heh heh heh)

As to Nowbiz (instead of pastbiz): We're up on DriveThru with PDFs:

DriveThruRPG.com - Eldritch Enterprises - The Largest RPG Download Store!

F


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## Deuce Traveler (Mar 30, 2012)

Frank Mentzer said:


> Contrary to popular scuttlebut, I don't bake. I taste. My wife Debbie created all that good stuff. (She still does a little, heh heh heh)
> 
> As to Nowbiz (instead of pastbiz): We're up on DriveThru with PDFs:
> 
> ...




I remember everyone talking about what great pastries they were when I met you, James Ward and Tim Kask at the first GaryCon.  I was the guy in your campaign who was falling asleep during the first day as I had arrived late the night before and didn't find a place to before gaming started.  I am glad I got rest and got to play again with you as DM the next day.  I enjoyed your megadungeon and look forward to seeing more of your work.  Very glad to see you guys working together.


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## UselessTriviaMan (Mar 30, 2012)

All apologies - most (if not all) of that hyperbole was mine.

I'll definitely be picking up some Eldritch Enterprises products at the convention.

But now I've just gotta ask - does a dukl sound like Burgess Meredith?


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## Frank Mentzer (Apr 2, 2012)

Recently I posted a Stat Conversion Crib Sheet for Lich Dungeon Level 1 (newly available from Eldritch Ent. Ltd.) over at Dragonsfoot. Since then they've had massive SQL errors. (I'm not arrogant enough to believe that my post had anything to do with it).

Since the info has become temporarily inaccessible, and our own website still sucks like a floozy with a black hole, here’s the info, actually expanded somewhat: on GoogleDocs. (I hope this works, I'm not great with webstuff.)

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ypj9x0VtppSmoQmarsZihlMbvFGr8LDAItUl8XhpWlQ/edit


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## Deuce Traveler (Apr 2, 2012)

Frank Mentzer said:


> Recently I posted a Stat Conversion Crib Sheet for Lich Dungeon Level 1 (newly available from Eldritch Ent. Ltd.) over at Dragonsfoot. Since then they've had massive SQL errors. (I'm not arrogant enough to believe that my post had anything to do with it).
> 
> Since the info has become temporarily inaccessible, and our own website still sucks like a floozy with a black hole, here’s the info, actually expanded somewhat: on GoogleDocs. (I hope this works, I'm not great with webstuff.)
> 
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ypj9x0VtppSmoQmarsZihlMbvFGr8LDAItUl8XhpWlQ/edit




The document came out perfect with no oddball SQL errors.  Good job.  The stat blocks seem quite easy to understand, and I agree with your assessment that the math should be a simple affair.


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## Corathon (Apr 2, 2012)

How soon can I get a physical product (as opposed to a PDF)?


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## Frank Mentzer (Apr 2, 2012)

Corathon said:


> How soon can I get a physical product (as opposed to a PDF)?




From the same sites. (They're all up on several now.) Each has to check the PDF for printability, looking for known glitches. Should certainly all be available in paper by mid-April, maybe earlier.


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## MerricB (Apr 3, 2012)

I've got to say that I'm rather enjoying reading Lich Dungeon level 1, Frank! I _really_ like the Redbirds, and there's a real mix of whimsy and danger.

I hope it's not too long before level 2 comes out.

Cheers!


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## Frank Mentzer (Apr 3, 2012)

MerricB said:


> I hope it's not too long before level 2 comes out.



Thanks for the kind words.

::sigh:: I do have a lot of ideas for NEW stuff, and Lich is from the '70s... The writeup for level 1 was actually the second (or third) thing I wrote in the last year, but I figured I oughta stick to vintage old-school stuff at first, lest I scare people. ;>

And now that it's out I'm committed (or oughta be). Yes, levels 2 thru 13 are on the schedule; we're hoping for one each quarter, 4 per year. That may be accelerated if demand warrants.

I recall Gary's angst when we worked together, as he got dragged into an overwhelming flood of business stuff and would have preferred to spent time writing. Sounds familiar, now.

F


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## Deuce Traveler (Apr 3, 2012)

Frank Mentzer said:


> I recall Gary's angst when we worked together, as he got dragged into an overwhelming flood of business stuff and would have preferred to spent time writing. Sounds familiar, now.
> 
> F




I also remember him expressing that as he ran more of the business side of things he regretfully also had less time to play his own game.  For some reason that stuck with me and made me quite sad.  I hope you still get a chance to roll the dice here and there.


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## Filcher (Apr 3, 2012)

I purchased Lich at GaryCon. Excellent adventure setting, which will become even cooler as more levels are released. 

Minor complaint: The binding on my copy seems a little weak. Before I left Lake Geneva sheets were "cracking free" from the spine.

Easy solution though: three hole punch and binder, and now Lich is easier to use at the table.


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## havard (Apr 3, 2012)

Picked up Lich's dungeon (PDF) today. Enjoying what I am seeing so far! 

-Havard


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Apr 3, 2012)

Deuce Traveler said:


> I hope they do well.  It is a rough market.



Their name recognition will make a big difference. I'm not one to throw my money at every OSR work that comes along -- I still haven't picked up Stonehell, for instance, or the Grinding Gear -- but if they put out a take on Castle Greyhawk by any name, I'd grab it to use, at least in parts, in a heartbeat.


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## Frank Mentzer (Apr 4, 2012)

Filcher said:


> Minor complaint: The binding on my copy seems a little weak. Before I left Lake Geneva sheets were "cracking free" from the spine.



I'm more than 'a little' perturbed at the binding problems (printer error). otoh we had to accept a percentage of errors to get them to GaryCon in time to meet our commitments. Sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do. All such problems (binding & some color streaking inside covers) were entirely due to the speed factor. All the POD items produced by our online vendors will be fine, I'm sure; they have the system down pat, and can take their time in production.



Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> if they put out a take on Castle Greyhawk by any name, I'd grab it to use, at least in parts, in a heartbeat.



Ah, I wish. Greyhawk is of course property of TSR/WotC exclusively. Although we have access to some of Rob Kuntz's original GH notes, and Gail would of course have Gary's original stuff in this line, there's no chance that it could all come together. Ah well.



Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> I still haven't picked up Stonehell, for instance, or the Grinding Gear




Cripes, man, save up and grab! I'm partial to the works of Raggi (now well-established) and Curtis (who burst on the scene with award-winning stuff in the last two years). I have been lucky enough to meet both face-to-face and chatted fairly extensively.

And heya Havard. How's the spring weather in west-central Norway?

Frank


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## havard (Apr 6, 2012)

Frank Mentzer said:


> And heya Havard. How's the spring weather in west-central Norway?




Hey Frank! All well here, but very snowy. 

Enjoying your Lich Dungeon very much. I like how the dungeon in some ways is very old school, but at the same time shows how it has been in development over all these decades. 

The optional references to Aquaria also caught my interest.  

-Havard


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## Frank Mentzer (Apr 7, 2012)

Publishing Lich was actually a reaction, not a plan.

The first full work I wrote for publication was _Mystery of History_, but I decided not to 'lead' with that. The mystery involves about 95% role playing (and player mystery-solving) and 5% (or less) is combat. It works fine, and will be coming soon from EE, but it would have sent the wrong message.

Were Mystery my 'first out' from Eldritch, I'd have fans thinking I've gone around the bend, writing stuff like that all the time. In actuality, mostly I run wilderness jaunts, good ol' dungeon crawls, etc., all mixing combat and role gaming and uberplot and player-driven stories and more, reflecting what we've learned in four decades of gaming.

I also have a bit of a personal bias against the pure "kill everybody and steal their Stuff" style. While it may be fun for a little bit, it's a very barbaric mentality and loses its appeal quickly (at least for me). Relevant to that my campaign includes some Monstrous Beings (irredeemable whatever you do, so it's okay to simply slay them) amidst a lot of Normal Beings, some having semi-monstrous natures but not always Evil, certain not always ethically slayable (setting up moral quandaries).

So anyway... we at Eldritch discussed the problem, and I quickly wrote up good ol' Lich as a 'blast from the past'. _Mystery_ may come next (at the other end of the design spectrum), and various things after that, including more details on the Aquaria campaign that I've been running & developing since the 1970s. I'll keep trickling out tidbits over at piazza and Dragonsfoot and such.

F


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## Toric_Arthendain (Apr 7, 2012)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Their name recognition will make a big difference. I'm not one to throw my money at every OSR work that comes along -- I still haven't picked up Stonehell, for instance, or the Grinding Gear -- but if they put out a take on Castle Greyhawk by any name, I'd grab it to use, at least in parts, in a heartbeat.




I'll second what Frank said.  Pick up Stonehell.  It's a fantastic book!  Huge megadungeon done in a very interesting and specific style.  I love that book.  It's done by the same author as the Dungeon Alphabet book from a few years back published by Goodman Games.

As for Lich Dungeon and the other Eldritch Enterprises releases, they are all worth getting.  I have read Lich Dungeon and really enjoyed it.  The other three releases I have only skimmed so far but all are interesting settings, cool ideas and easily portable to your system and setting of choice.


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## howandwhy99 (Apr 8, 2012)

I wanted to say that I really like Lich Dungeon, that it is unique in its starting point, and has an interesting premise. 



Spoiler



I also like what you did with the trees and never would have thought of that myself. Now I'm curious as to just how deep they go and what's going on there.


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