# [Mor's End Discussion] Time to open shop!



## Krug (Mar 6, 2003)

Yes, I think this is suitable. *knocks on wall* Good strong place this is.


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## Lalato (Mar 6, 2003)

Perhaps we should each post the e-mails that we sent to the group.  I'll post mine when I get back from lunch.

--sam


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## Buttercup (Mar 6, 2003)

Actually, I think a summary of what we have already would be sufficient.  I only ask that if we do cut and paste emails that we be mindful that several people asked not to have their real names and email addresses posted in a public place.

--Buttercup the paranoid


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## Lalato (Mar 6, 2003)

Thanks for reminding me   uhm...  Buttercup (yeah, that's the ticket)...  

EDIT:  The reason I think we should post all of the e-mails is that I think it's worthwhile to see which ideas were discarded along the way.  Who knows... we might even revisit a discarded idea...

EDIT (part the second):  If y'all (yes, I'm from the South) prefer, I can post all of the e-mails in the order they were sent out. 

--sam


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## The Grey Dwarf (Mar 6, 2003)

*Re: EN World City Project: Time to open shop!*



			
				Krug said:
			
		

> *Yes, I think this is suitable. *knocks on wall* Good strong place this is. *




Seems right. Hope it's not too haunted.
*looks behind curtains*
I can hear voices.

-- TGD the "just a bit less paranoid than Buttercup"


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## The Grey Dwarf (Mar 6, 2003)

*Map 1*

I'll post the maps then.
Let me remind you that they are only food for thought.


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## The Grey Dwarf (Mar 6, 2003)

Edit : post moved further in the thread.


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## Lalato (Mar 6, 2003)

*E-mail to Group from Krug*

Hi all,
Thanks for volunteering to help with the EN World city project. 

I think we should come up with the 'big picture'; of what the city area's should be, perhaps even a rough map of the city.

As for the name thing, what do you think? A lot of people are really dissing Entropy/Entropia on the boards. (Ok they're not my favourite. Perhaps I shouldn't have put them out for voting in the first place...)

To start off with the city design, Buttercup had some nice suggestions:

>Hi Krug, Buttercup here.

I'd like to get involved with this.  I love designing stuff like this!  If you still need help, let me know what needs to be done, and I'll roll up my sleeves.

Here are some things I was thinking about already:  We need to define the lay of the land, because that will shape the city.  For example, the stuff that Starwolf posted (which happened to use several of the more popular name choices) are a good start.  It gives a whole framework to the design.  Also, I was thinking
about big picture issues, like, the city should be on a major caravan route, and have three or four major industries that would make it be a trade hub.  That gives people a reason to come there.

And now for my first suggestion of industry/locale:  Claytown!  In honor of alsih2o and just because I think it might be cool.  What if the riverbank had especially good clay deposits?  There would be a whole section of town devoted to digging clay, shaping clay
and firing it into pottery.  If the clay were especially fine, it would be a trade commodity.  I'm thinking Ming vases here.

Another idea would be to use the name Kul Moren for the mountains/highlands above the city, and the mines found there.  Mines of Kul Moren has a nice ring.  It would give us the opportunity to have a dwarven community, with more trade, more visitors and perhaps some racial tension, which is never a bad thing.

Krug


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## Lalato (Mar 6, 2003)

*E-mail from The Grey Dwarf*

Hi all,

I’m happy to “work” with you.

Here’s a rough sketch of a possible layout of the city, taking some of Buttercup’s ideas into account. 

My vote was for Enheim, which sounds more like a town name than the other two. There is always the possibility to refine the choice in a second poll. Only the 5 names having the more votes would be listed.

I think that after defining the lay of the land, we’ll need to know how the city was created. Did it spread from a military outpost or did the dwarves create it as a trading place? It could have been a landing point for pirates or a big market for merchants waiting for boats coming along the river. It could also be a sacred place where a huge temple was built and where pilgrims come all the time or an abandoned prison that grew to huge proportions…

This historical information will provide us with the type of population and the type of special shops to be found there.

The Grey Dwarf

EDIT:  The image is an earlier post above --sam


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## Lalato (Mar 6, 2003)

*E-mail from Lalato*

Hi Everyone...
I like The Grey Dwarf's idea of having a second vote for the top 5.  I would even expand that to anything that received double-digit votes.  I voted for Mor's End. It was one of the names I came up with...   I have to admit Kul Moren is growing on me, though.

I like the idea that the city should be on a caravan route.  Personally, I still prefer a city that is an inland river port as opposed to a sea port.  Sea ports tend to be the endpoints of caravan routes... not necessarily stopping points along a route.  

I'm visualizing something along the lines of Pittsburgh... with the the river splitting into two. A major reason for it being a caravan stop would be either the famed ferry crossing or the famed bridge.

I like the idea that there are a few major industries nearby.  Buttercup's idea for a nearby clay deposit is great... and I would extend that by saying that if there is going to be a mine nearby... it definitely has to be an iron mine.  I think my idea of cattle as a major industry could work, but it might be better if it's a natural resource as opposed to animals.

As far as the terrain...  I think it should be hilly, but not mountainous.  Grassy... and peppered with small forested areas.  There should definitely be a swamp or a bog nearby.  Moors are also a possibility.  Anything to make the area interesting...

Climate might either be sub-tropical or temperate.  If temperate... I would suggest a light winter with little to no snow.  If sub-tropical there should be a prominent rainy season.

That's all I can think of right now...
--sam


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## Lalato (Mar 6, 2003)

*E-mail from Buttercup*

Grey Dwarf, the map is excellent!  

I wanted to respond to your questions about why the city was created.  Historically, medieval communities only grew to be larger than market towns if there were multiple reasons for them to be attractive places to put down roots.  Just using some of the suggestions I've seen, and a few things off the top of my head, here are the reasons for this city to be large and thriving that we have so far:

1. Source of high quality raw material for an essential product. (clay)
2. Nexus of two major trade routes.
3. Nearby mining community, which needs access to those trade routes.
4. Ready access to some sort of spell component that is not grown (mined, fished, built?) anywhere else.
5. Security.  I.E. the city patrols the surrounding area, making it safe for trade.  Of course, in exchange for this they tax all trade going through the city by land and by water, and perhaps levy an additional fee for cargo that transfers from one mode to the other.
6. We need a ready source of calories to support the populace.  No problem if we have a fishing industry, ample nearby arable land, and perhaps orchards and hunting up in the mountains.

Here's a rough draft history of our city, that I just pulled out of my, um, posterior.  I'm not attached to it, so feel free to rip it apart. :-D

The dwarves discovered rich deposits of ore in the X mountains, far from the settled lands to the north, or the strange sand-barbarians of the south.  Fortunately, a trickle of trade between these far distant cultures was beginning, and the common route passed less than a day's hike from the new dwarven mines.  Not long after, some settlers discovered beds of clay of unusual purity and color on the banks of the Y River, and set up a small manufacturing hamlet where the river intersected this trade route.  The dwarves soon introduced themselves, and with their usual dwarven interest in all things manufactured, suggested the use of some mineral byproducts (which they had previously thought of as waste) as glazes for the fine clay wares being produced.  The  results were unusually beautiful and durable, and were readily sold to the traders who were passing through with increasing frequency.

Sadly, as is the way of the frontier, these lands were not empty.  Bands of marauding As, Bs and even a few Cs harried the fledgling town, and nearly destroyed it more than once.  The dwarves, who had begun to see the community as essential to their continued economic health, hired some mercenaries, and helped to build a palisade. 

Ok, I'm out of gas.  Would someone else like to run with this, or trash it completely and start over?

Buttercup


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## Lalato (Mar 6, 2003)

*Fifth E-mail from Lalato*

Good stuff...

but before we get to far with this we need a better way to communicate.

Here are a couple of options...

--Yahoo Groups (tried and true... easy to setup)

--hosted mailing list (I can do this on my website... more private, but not as user friendly as yahoo)

--A hosted forum (either on enworld or on my website)

--continue to e-mail each other like this (not the best way because there is no central archive of past e-mails)

Let me know what you think...
--sam


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## Lalato (Mar 6, 2003)

*Sixth E-mail from Buttercup*

I'd like to suggest that, once we get to the point that we need or want some images of buildings and so forth, that we invite Knid Vermicious to help us.

If you haven't taken a look at his work, go here:

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30745

As he says over and over in that thread, he wants people to suggest stuff for him to create, and as you can see, he's quite talented.

Buttercup


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## Lalato (Mar 6, 2003)

*Seventh E-mail from Buttercup*

My first choice would be a hosted forum at EN World or elsewhere.  I'm not so hot on the yahoo group, because yahoo is a pain in the butt with all the ads.  A hosted mailing list would be ok, but a forum is better, I think.

Buttercup


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## Lalato (Mar 6, 2003)

*8th E-mail from wizard of the plains*

Hi All from Kansas.

Very glad to be participating in this venture with everyone.

My thoughts.
Nice map

Vote Mor's End for the the city and Kul Moren for the Dwarven settlement.  I've grown to like both those names.

Could a third natural resource (besides clay and cattle) be sapphires.  Many can be found in the gravel of certain riverbeds.  (Just looked this up.)    See below:

The sapphires from the Missouri River gravels in Lewis and Clark County are a mixture of rough and pitted crystals showing well defined faces and completely rounded and smooth-surface highly stream worn pebbles. The majority of the material is pale blue or blue-green, with deep blue stones quite rare. Stones also are found in pastel blue, green, pink, pale red, purple, yellow, and orange. Most of the stones recovered are less than 6.4 millimeters in diameter, but material 6.4 to 12.7 millimeters in 
diameter are not uncommon. Material greater than 12.7 millimeters in diameter is rare. 

I think the special clays and sapphires might be a nice artsy mix.  Mor's end...know nfor its exceedingly fine pottery, rare gemstones, artisans...and steaks

Also, could the sea instead be a great lake?  That way it's not the end of the road for caravans...but it does allow ships to harbor also.

And this could be an addition...  Some years ago, abandoned underground warrens were discovered beneath part of the city...a myriad of tunnels that the population uses for a underworld nightlife scene, storage (meat lockers, grain, and supplieds, and defense in a time of war.  Unbeknownst to but a few of the cities inhabitants, the are not abandoned but harbor a sleeping spider-kin, currently in a state of prolonged (eon-long) hibernation.

Just a thought.
wizard of the plains


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## Lalato (Mar 6, 2003)

*9th E-mail from Krug*

Hey all,
Thanks all for the contributions. I've been buried under a lotta work lately and won't be able to dig myself out until 2 weeks.

I'll ask about setting up a group on EN World, but I think that'll only happen when we finalize a name.

I'm not so sure of another poll. I think it's going to be very close again, particularly if we use multiple choices. My personal choice would be Kul Moren. It has a fantasy feel, and credits both Morrus and Eric. 

So far though the ideas look great. I like a lot of ideas that have historical background. The clay idea, for example. 

I think leaving it as the EN World City Project, that someone suggested on the boards, is very unwieldy, and without a name the city doesn't have much of an identity. 

So bear with the mass of emails a bit longer. Topmost of the agenda; the name. I'd rather just let us vote for it amongst ourselves as I think yet another poll drains the whole project of momentum. Either a secret or open poll amongst the volunteers? WE're the ones building it and if it's a name we dislike, it's going to be hard to find an attachment to it.

My 2 coppers. 
Krug


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## Lalato (Mar 6, 2003)

*10th E-mail from*

I love the idea of the city sitting on a large lake rather than a sea.  In fact, do we want to consider that the river runs not Into the lake, but out of the lake?  Sort of like the St. Lawrence River.
http://www.quebecweb.com/tourisme/fleuveang.html

So this location would be the natural gathering place for all the trade from all the regions surrounding the lake.  A benefit to this scenario is that it could have been found by explorers (adventurers!) in the past.  The URL I pasted above has some interesting tidbits.

I also think sapphires are a good choice for another commodity. I had no idea they came in so many colors. They can be used as spell components, the dwarves might well covet them, heck, everyone might covet them.  It would be a good source for plot hooks.

Mor's End as the city and Kul Moren as the dwarven settlement are fine with me.  If we end up not using the name the poll came up with, well, people will get over it.

Buttercup


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## Lalato (Mar 6, 2003)

*11th E-mail from The Grey Dwarf*

Ok, a lot has been going on behind my back, I see. Good!

My 0.02 €
  City: Mor's End
  Mountain range: Kul Moren
  River: Entropia? (Rough river)
  Region: Enheim?
  Lake: Enoria?
    (Let's see, did I get them all?)

As for communication means, I'll leave that to you.

The images from KnidVermicious are really good.It would be nice indeed if he could work on this project.

wiz o' plains, don't forget the hills and forests in the summary.
The river could start as a swampy delta, thus needing guides for the boats between the lake and the city.  Some D, could make a living of raiding unprotected ships or ships that get lost in the swamp (without guide).  

Here's another draft of the city area map with swamp, split river, 4 trade routes, 2 clay digging areas, forests, mountains...  I'll have a try at a better map when I find my Photoshop CD.

That's all I've time for at the moment, sorry. 

The Grey Dwarf

EDIT:  See next post for image.  --sam


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## The Grey Dwarf (Mar 6, 2003)

I'll post the map here to keep some kind of coherence.
Sorry Lalato.


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## Lalato (Mar 6, 2003)

*12th E-mail from Lalato*

I found this old map of Pittsburgh...

http://store4.yimg.com/I/pastpresent_1731_79302451

I'll see if I can find an old map of the St. Lawrence...

--sam


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## Lalato (Mar 6, 2003)

*E-mail from Lalato*

Here's a map of the St. Lawrence as it meets Lake Ontario...

http://www.great-lakes.net/teach/chat/answers/graphics/stlaw_freshwater.html

If that link doesn't work try this one and click on the word "freshwater"

http://www.great-lakes.net/teach/chat/answers/090100_stLaw.html

Here's a better map of the three rivers of
Pittsburgh...

http://www.city.pittsburgh.pa.us/maps/html/pittsburgh_neighborhoods.html

--sam


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## Lalato (Mar 6, 2003)

*E-mail from wizard of the plains*

I like the great lakes map.  Also think the sketches that Buttercup sent up links to are nice.

So, summary?
Kul Moren or Mor's End (vote) is the city.
Settled on the bank of the river BLANK that flows out of the BLANK great lake.
A nexus point for major trade routes.
Some boat traffic (trade)


Known for the following natural resources:
Exotic clays
Cattle
Fish
Sapphires
Iron (from nearby mountains)
Dwarven settlement nearby

Known trade goods:
fine, colorful pottery
cut sapphires (spell components?)
cattle
worked iron ingots

Special:
Swamp nearby.
Maurauding bands of A, B, and C.
Ancient warrens used for storage below city

Did I get it right so far? And do any of these drop off list?
wizardoftheplains


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## Lalato (Mar 6, 2003)

*E-mail from Buttercup*

Grey Dwarf, the map is progressing nicely.  I can see lots of potential here!

Buttercup


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## Lalato (Mar 6, 2003)

*E-mail from Lalato*

Here are some other mailing list options...

http://www.emailaddresses.com/email_mailing.htm

just throwing it out there...

--sam


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## Lalato (Mar 6, 2003)

That concludes the e-mails with info...  They're not in perfect order, but they're close enough.

If any of you want one of your e-mails edited, let me know and I will make the change for you.

--sam


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## Lalato (Mar 6, 2003)

*City Name*

Here is a list of the City Names with at least 10 votes...

Entropia (39)
Entropy (38)
Kul Moren (21)
Enoria (17)
Port Entropia (16)
Enheim (15)
Mor's End (12)

--sam


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## Krug (Mar 6, 2003)

Thanks Lalato. Feel free to start other threads.

All right, lets finalise the names. 

The summary for the city votes:

My vote: (city)
Kul Moren

wizardofplains: 
(city) Mor's End (settlement) Kul Moren

Grey Dwarf:
Mor's End

Buttercup:
(city) Mor's End (settlement) Kul Moren

Any other votes for names? Apologies if I missed anyone. A lot of emails to go through.

Maps are looking great! For another industry perhaps something that can tap into the lake? Some creature that inhabits it; haddock or some fish perhaps. Or a creature that weaves a substance similar to spider silk.


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## Buttercup (Mar 6, 2003)

A creature that inhabits the lake, and weaves a substance similar to spider silk?  Hmm.  Would this creature be dangerous, or would it be domesticated?  It might be cool to have "sea-silk worm" farms.  There could be large floating platforms that the farmers would live on, at least during "silk milking" season or something.  And maybe the processing of the stuff would be dangerous or stinky or something, which would raise the price of the finished sea silk thread.  

The city might forbid the sale of the thread, like Venice did with glass beads (or was that Florence?  don't remember off the top of my head) so that they could have a monopoly on sea silk fabric.  

And maybe the city would therefore want to heavily police the lake to prevent sea silk worm theft.  But of course, it's hard to make an open body of water 100% secure....


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## Lalato (Mar 6, 2003)

I like both Mor's End and Kul Moren...  Here's how I would put them in order...

Mor's End
Kul Moren
Enheim
Enoria
Entropia
Port Entropia
Entropy

--sam


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## The Grey Dwarf (Mar 6, 2003)

*Map 3*

Here's another try.
I hope it's a bit better than the previous ones.

As for the names, I go with Lalato.

Edit: I added a fishermen's village to provide food for the dwarves.
Another thing is that the more we develop the surroundings of the city, the harder it will be to integrate in an existing setting.


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## Lalato (Mar 6, 2003)

> it's hard to make an open body of water 100% secure....




If we're talking about a lake the size of Lake Ontario, then it would be nearly impossible to police the entire lake... unless one used magic.

Taking a hint from Grey Dwarf's map...  We could put an island in the middle of the lake.  The island is home to a species of insect that produces silk.  The island seems to be made almost entirely of the fine clay found along the river.  The insects eat a rare mineral in the soil.  This is what gives the silk its fine quality.

Industries:
Iron, Sapphires, Clay/Pottery, Cattle, Silk

I don't know if we want this many...  Right now Cattle is the only local food source.  I suppose the caravans bring the vegetables...

--sam


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## Knightfall (Mar 6, 2003)

Hi all, mind if I chime in?

My vote for the city is Kul Moren (that's my baby).  (_Note:_ The name honors Kevin "Piratecat" Kulp as well.  Kul = Kulp.)

However, I like the idea of Kul Moren being used as the Mountain/dwarven settlement too.  (Decisions, decisions!)  In that case, I'd go with Mor's End as the city name and I'd call the river the _Mor River_.  Thus, Mor's End makes sense.

As for the lake, unsure.

Cheers!

KF72


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## The Grey Dwarf (Mar 6, 2003)

Oops! Forgot to put back the isle.


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## Knightfall (Mar 6, 2003)

Krug said:
			
		

> *Maps are looking great! For another industry perhaps something that can tap into the lake? Some creature that inhabits it; haddock or some fish perhaps. Or a creature that weaves a substance similar to spider silk. *




How about the Cave Fisher creature from the 2E Monstrous Manual.  (Was it ever updated to 3E?)

It could be both underground and aquatic around this area.

{EDIT}
Ah ha, I knew I should have looked for it in the Creature Catalog.
http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/vermin/cave_fisher.htm

RPB


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## Krug (Mar 6, 2003)

Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> *
> 
> How about the Cave Fisher creature from the 2E Monstrous Manual.  (Was it ever updated to 3E?)
> 
> ...




Ooh I like this idea. You guys are amazing.


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## Knightfall (Mar 6, 2003)

Krug said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Ooh I like this idea. You guys are amazing.  *




And for my next idea, something that is both dangerous and popular amongst the cities nobility/upper class.

Catoblepas hunting in the marsh near the city.

And another one: A magical riverboat that makes its way up and down the river.  Other boats tend to be flat-bottom and use polers to move from one bank to the other, ferrying people, goods and sometimes contraband.

More ideas later.

KF72


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## Knightfall (Mar 6, 2003)

*Re: E-mail from Buttercup*



			
				lalato said:
			
		

> *
> Sadly, as is the way of the frontier, these lands were not empty.  Bands of marauding As, Bs and even a few Cs harried the fledgling town, and nearly destroyed it more than once.  The dwarves, who had begun to see the community as essential to their continued economic health, hired some mercenaries, and helped to build a palisade.*




Hmm...

A - Orcs/Ogres (typical)
B - Goblins/worgs (typical)
C - Yak Folk (not so typical) - MM II

Plus, a more dangerous web creature for the region - the Spellgaunt (MM II).  Nasty!


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## Buttercup (Mar 6, 2003)

*Re: Map 3*



			
				The Grey Dwarf said:
			
		

> *Another thing is that the more we develop the surroundings of the city, the harder it will be to integrate in an existing setting. *




Very true.  But I think we haven't gone too far yet.  Consider how Bluffside is set up.  You can use one section of the city, or several, or the whole city.  And if you like you can add Sordadon (spelling?), the city below, in the water.  Let's try to make things modular like they did.


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## Knightfall (Mar 6, 2003)

Moved to page two.


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## wizardoftheplains (Mar 7, 2003)

Wow, step away for a minute to earn my paycheck and you guys fill up this whole thread!
Love the Cave Fisher idea...great memories of that in a module I once DMed.
Good map progression.

Ruler...grandma (Like the Queen of England, well known spokeperson.)
But really ruled by (Council of Mages...like England's parliment?)
Just a thought.

Like the idea of an island nearby.

Intrigue:  Merchant Guild has a lot of power given this is a city of trade.
Perhaps they the real power behind the council...or grandma.
Just thinking out loud here.  They manuever for power against the Gemcutters Guild who hold the secret to cutting the gems just right to bring out their magical properties for use as spell components.

wizo'plains


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## Knightfall (Mar 7, 2003)

wizardoftheplains said:
			
		

> *Ruler...grandma (Like the Queen of England, well known spokeperson.)*




Can we not do the grandma thing, please?  Seriously, it's weird.  Weird the way calling the city Entropy or Entropia is weird, IMO.

If you want to do the well known spokesperson and have her be female then do it with some... you know.  No offense meant to Eric's Grandma but it's just too freaky.

we want the EN World City Project to be accepted by all EN Worlders and hopefully attract new people to the site, correct?

Having Eric's Grandma as the city ruler will confuse people.

Cheers!

Rob


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## Conaill (Mar 7, 2003)

Hi guys! Just found this thread at random. Is there any particular reason there's no link from the poll in D&D General?

Anyway, I would vote for Kul Moren, if it weren't for the fact that you already have 243 votes in the poll...

One comment about the map: a complex delta like that tends to be a very bad place for a harbor and for a city. It sort of implies a very active river bed (river constantly shifting - like the Mississippi) and floods that carry a lot of sediment downstream (Mississippi or Nile). Not to mention the issue of diseases because of the swamp/stagnant water. You're probably much better of with a simpler delta with a few large islands (see the St. Lawrence map). I'm not sure, but it may also be a bad place for clay (too sandy?) Someone with more knowledge of geography - feel free to correct me!


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## Lalato (Mar 7, 2003)

Here's a compromise on the city's ruler...

Title:  Lady Kelvin (This is a reference to Lord Kelvin... which in turn is a subtle reference to Entropy.)
Name:  Nonna Deleric  (bastardized italian that means Eric's Grandmother)
Class(es):  Rogue/Sorcerer/Aristocrat

Someone else can come up with the actual stats... as I'm sort of a newbie to 3e.

What do y'all think?

--sam


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## Conaill (Mar 7, 2003)

Oh, and a vote _in favor_ of Eric's Grandma. She would be the unseen force behind the scene, a very shadowy figure. There would be a mayor or some other official who rules in her name, but nobody has ever seen Eric's Grandma, or knows who Eric is, how old she is (she seems to have always been there), where she lives, etc.


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## Knightfall (Mar 7, 2003)

lalato said:
			
		

> *Here's a compromise on the city's ruler...
> 
> Title:  Lady Kelvin (This is a reference to Lord Kelvin... which in turn is a subtle reference to Entropy.)
> Name:  Nonna Deleric  (bastardized italian that means Eric's Grandmother)
> ...




You know, i could live with this compromise.  

This is just for starters:  The Lady Kelvin, Nonna Deleric (LN female human Ari4/Rog8/Sor8).

Conaill, you want to stat her out?


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## wizardoftheplains (Mar 7, 2003)

Conaill said:
			
		

> *Hi guys! Just found this thread at random. Is there any particular reason there's no link from the poll in D&D General?
> 
> Anyway, I would vote for Kul Moren, if it weren't for the fact that you already have 243 votes in the poll...
> 
> ...


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## Lalato (Mar 7, 2003)

Hi Conaill...

That's a good point...  Perhaps we should more closely model the St. Lawrence...  

By the way, Lake Ontario pushes water into the St. Lawrence.  That's why it doesn't have a delta.  If the St. Lawrence was flowing into Lake Ontario, you might see a delta like the Missisippi or Nile.

If we reverse the flow of the river... it would alleviate the problem of flooding in the city.  However... that might also eliminate the plausibility of swamps nearby.

--sam


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## Buttercup (Mar 7, 2003)

lalato said:
			
		

> *However... that might also eliminate the plausibility of swamps nearby.--sam *




Not necessarily, Sam.  They might just be farther downstream--in other words, on the opposite side of the city from the lake.

A bigger problem in my literal mind is that swamp and clay beds don't go together.  At least, I don't think so.  But I'm not a geologist.


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## Knightfall (Mar 7, 2003)

*Moved to page three!*

moved to page three


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## Lalato (Mar 7, 2003)

> You know, i could live with this compromise.
> 
> This is just for starters: The Lady Kelvin, Nonna Deleric (LN female human Ari4/Rog8/Sor8).
> 
> Conaill, you want to stat her out?




A further compromise for Conaill on Eric's Grandmother...

Lady Kelvin has a deep dark secret...  she lives a second life as a man...  As Erek Noahn she is the leader of the [insert Mage's Council or Merchant's Guild]... giving her complete control of everything that goes on in the city.

No one has ever seen Erek Noahn and Lady Kelvin together...  there are rumors in the city that they are lovers...  no one suspects the truth.

--sam


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## Knightfall (Mar 7, 2003)

lalato said:
			
		

> *
> 
> A further compromise for Conaill on Eric's Grandmother...
> 
> ...




How about Erik Noahan, instead.  It looks better, IMO.  Opinions?

{EDIT}

Or Erek Nohan

Rob


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## Knightfall (Mar 7, 2003)

Opinions on these ideas?  Should we even consider provinces or a special proper name?

Proper Name: ?
Government: ?
Provinces: ?
Alignments: ?
Religions: ?
Allies: ?
Enemies: ?


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## Knightfall (Mar 7, 2003)

*Coinage!*

Here's an interesting conversation I just came up with as to why minted city gold peices are referred to as hammers.

---------------------------
"I won't sell it for less than 50."  The merchant eyes his latest customer with curiousity.  He's got the coin, the merchant can tell.

"Come on, I can get a better sword for less from the desert tribesmen south of here."

"I don't think so."  The merchant shakes his head.

"Come on, as least let's haggle a little.  I am interested."

"You want to haggle, huh?"  The merchant smiles.  "Alright, let's hammer out a price."
---------------------------

Heh, heh!

Rob

editied for inflation...


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## Lalato (Mar 7, 2003)

> How about Erik Noahan, instead. It looks better, IMO. Opinions?
> 
> {EDIT}
> 
> Or Erek Nohan




I was using Erek Noahn because that was one of the city names in the poll.  We can change the spelling... that's not a problem.

Apart from the spelling does anyone have comments about the compromise on Eric's Grandmother?



> Opinions on these ideas? Should we even consider provinces or a special proper name?
> 
> Proper Name: ?
> Government: ?
> ...




A city with this many natural resources would be a jewel in any empire or kingdom.  I'm not sure if this is part of a major country... or if it's a separate city-state.  Once we figure that out... we can start assigning values to the above...

--sam


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## Knightfall (Mar 7, 2003)

lalato said:
			
		

> *I was using Erek Noahn because that was one of the city names in the poll.  We can change the spelling... that's not a problem.*




Understood.  No biggie!



			
				lalato said:
			
		

> *A city with this many natural resources would be a jewel in any empire or kingdom.  I'm not sure if this is part of a major country... or if it's a separate city-state.  Once we figure that out... we can start assigning values to the above...*




I think a separate, independent city-state is best.  Otherwise we open up a HUGE can-o-worms.


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## Krug (Mar 7, 2003)

Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> *Opinions on these ideas?  Should we even consider provinces or a special proper name?
> 
> Proper Name: ?
> Government: ?
> ...




Proper Name: No real need.
Government: Yes. Independent city-state. 
I agree she shouldn't be called "Eric's Grandmother", but should be an unseen force
Provinces: No
Religions: No, except for 'small' gods
Enemies: Not in any great depth

The end point at this stage should be a 3-4 page dossier that people can refer to. 

I'll post thread to discuss the 'administration' of this project. I think it's best for one person to take care of crucial aspects. eg: if you want to take care of the merchant part, you make the final decisions on trades etc. You have to read what others suggest, but you determine what is taken in. You act as the Minister of 'Trades' for example. The three points I can see now are: Name, Trade, Geography. I'll be the final Dictator of the Name of course. 

REMEMBER; this is just the blueprint. A week from now or so, we'll be asking EN Worlders to contribute NPCs. After that shops and so on. We want to tap into the creative collective that's here.

And Thanks Knightfall for collating.


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## Conaill (Mar 7, 2003)

lalato said:
			
		

> *Lady Kelvin has a deep dark secret...  she lives a second life as a man...  As Erek Noahn she is the leader of the [insert Mage's Council or Merchant's Guild]... giving her complete control of everything that goes on in the city.*




Sorry, but I don't think this sort of secrets work very well when you're working out a setting for others to play in.

Example:

FRCS: "Elminster and the leader of the Red Wizards of Thay are really one and the same person. But nobody knows this"

Newbie player who just read the FRCS: "Aha! I know your secret!"

See what I mean?

Besides, I still think Eric's grandma, however she is named, should *never* be seen in public. If you ever get face-to-face with the _true_ leader of the city, you're _way_ in over your head! 

Sorry, can't help you statting her up. I would probably pick some sort of PrC that gives her the ability to listen in or scry on any conversation throughout her realm - if we're putting in an in-joke, we might as well do it right, no?  

Loremaster or Divine Oracle sound appropriate, no? Hang on... just did a search for PrC that have ranks in Scry as a prereq, and guess what should turn up? *Entropist*!  From Lords of Darkness, it's a specialty priest for the "deity" of entropy. Now ain't _that_ appropriate!


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## Lalato (Mar 7, 2003)

> A bigger problem in my literal mind is that swamp and clay beds don't go together. At least, I don't think so. But I'm not a geologist.




I see your point.  Perhaps the clay deposits are on islands on the lake side of the city...  If that doesn't work... they could be in the hills just to the north of the city.

A small tributary dumps water into the lowlands just south of the city... forming a swamp... as you go further south, the swamps open up into hilly moors.  The moors flatten out into plains and steppes until you reach the desert far to the south.

----------
Proper Name: Mor's End is the city name... are we giving it another "proper" name, too?
Provinces: None
Alignments: CG, CN, NG, N (it's supposed to be somewhat chaotic)
Religions: Merchant deities would be big here...  there might also be local cults to minor deities
Allies: Dwarves of Kul Moren


--sam


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## Conaill (Mar 7, 2003)

Krug said:
			
		

> *Religions: No, except for 'small' gods*




Interesting. Perhaps it should also be common knowledge that excessive discussion of religion or politics is frowned upon by "grandma". 

(The common folk can still call her "grandma" affectionately, right? I love lalato's suggestion of "Nonna Deleric" for her real name though...)


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## Krug (Mar 7, 2003)

Conaill said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Interesting. Perhaps it should also be common knowledge that excessive discussion of religion or politics is frowned upon by "grandma".
> 
> (The common folk can still call her "grandma" affectionately, right? I love lalato's suggestion of "Nonna Deleric" for her real name though...) *




Actually let me clarify. 'No' as in there's no need to build or create major Gods. Deities are something very campaign specific, and I see little point in doing them since this city is meant for generic use.

Small Gods are gods of geographical bodies in the region or highly limited spheres unique to the area.


----------



## wizardoftheplains (Mar 7, 2003)

Krug said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> The end point at this stage should be a 3-4 page dossier that people can refer to.
> ...



btw, i posted the underground warrren angle.

I really like the Minister angle!!!
We could dole out the Minister position (each taking one and posting rest up for grabs.
Then, like Krug said, each oversee a thread and submit reports to a master Thread.

Minister of:  (some suggestions to get things rolling)
Trade
Warfare
Magic
Agriculture (cattle, farming)
Foreign Affairs (alliances, etc.)
Education (university)
Religion
the Arts
Intrigue (need better name but head of CIA just won't cut it
City Affairs
Industry

Or we could go the Guild route.


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## Lalato (Mar 7, 2003)

> Sorry, but I don't think this sort of secrets work very well when you're working out a setting for others to play in.




I see your point... I guess I got ahead of myself...  

How about this... there is a local cult to the Holy Grandmother...  The patron deity of the city.  There are whispers on the streets that the Holy Grandmother "walks among us"...  Sightings of the Holy Grandmother are often talked about... but none of the descriptions are ever quite the same.

The city is "ruled" by the Mage Council and the Merchant's Guild.  

Lady Kelvin is a high ranking noble in the city...  perhaps she is the Holy Grandmother, perhaps not...  but one thing is sure... someone pulls the strings of the Mages and the Merchants.

Lady Kelvin could even be statted as PrC Entropist.  That might actually be very interesting... considering her name and the meta history of the city's naming...

--sam


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## Conaill (Mar 7, 2003)

lalato said:
			
		

> *The city is "ruled" by the Mage Council and the Merchant's Guild.*




We need a central figure at the top though. Strong NPC's are always a good thing. Maybe a mayor appointed by the Mage Council and the Merchant's Guild? 

We can call him "The Russell", a title whose origins are lost in history. The current Russell is a sharp, dark haired man with a strange accent. Some say he is from the island across the water. 

Edit: The previous Russell abdicated under mysterious circumstances. There are rumors that he was an actual descendant of grandma (although experts agree that "grandma" is probably just a figure of speech). The former Russell is still seen wandering the streets of the city,  proclaiming grandma's will with a wild gleam in his eyes!


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## starwolf (Mar 7, 2003)

Hello All,
   Well I've been thinking, which in and of itself is a dangerous thing, and I have a few ideas to throw out there.
Every City needs to have a Hook, something that makes it unique.
Freeport obviously has the whole Sea Pirate thing down. Bluffside, has it's geography. Sigil has the Planes....etc.

So what should be the Hook for E-City?

A couple of ideas have popped into my mind. One has to do withe the geography angle. It seems that everyone is agreed on the Lake/River think, but we have some that want a swamp, and plains too. So bear with me as I try to sort this idea out.

What if the Lake is man made? Say like Lake Mead here in the U.S. Now how do you make a man made lake? With a Great Big Dam!

_Visitor: This is one dam big city you folks have here..._ 

_Local: No sir, this is one Big Dam city...._ 

So perhaps the city started out on the side of some tall mountain within a mountain pass that had a river flowing through it, and someone got the idea to build a dam across the river to cut off the water that flowed south down to a lower kingdom. As years rolled by the lake grew, and the old river bed dried up (instant clay deposits). Of course eventually the water found new exits from the mountains and now there are at least two rivers exiting the lake, one of which is still trying to cut a new channel, thus creating your swamp to the west.  Now as the lake grew the city found that it had to move higher up the mountain, and was of course running out of room. So someone just cut the top of one peak, leaving a vast flat spot, upon which the City grew. Now of course the water level of the lake is almost even with the ground, or maybe even slightly higher? The "islands" in the lake are really the old mountain tops of some of the smaller peaks within the mountain range.

Whew.....I think that gives enough of a start for the rest of you to chime in on the "geography" hook, now on to my second idea.

Politics!

The ?City? is alos known as the City of Crafts. Starting with the earlier metal workers, than adding the potters, then the gem-cutters, then the silk-weavers (BTW sidenote: The "silk" is actually discoverd to be the result of the ingestion of sapphires by the worms?) the city soon found that it had become the center for crafts of all kinds, and of course when that many craftsman start coming together in one place Guild's soon follow. So the city has developed a House of Guild's and  Workers Senate. But who is the Executive? Well now that is where it gets interesting. The City Leader is actually (no NOT Erics Grandmama) but an "elected" Mercenary Leader. because not only does the City export almost every known craft, but it exports Mercenary Troops!
Over the years the mercenarys have found that the city was a safe place for "wintering over", as would have it with so many mercenary brotherhoods in one place Rules of etiquette had to eventually be established, and over the years these have become a Code so deeply ingrained in the City's inhabitants that none think to break them. During the winter break the mercenarys have a lot of various "Tournements" that determine the pecking order for the next year. The Captain of the winning band is the nominal City executive until the next year. Of course this means that the city also has the strongest standing army in the region.

Whew again....I think that is enough for now...now it is your turn to tear it apart....


----------



## starwolf (Mar 7, 2003)

Just another note.

I think we should be careful about how much Magic has to play in the city design. Why? you ask.

Because if Magic is too deeply intertwined into the city it will be hard for some of the "low-magic" world DM's to make use of the city. It is always easier for a DM to add magic to a setting than it is to remove magic form a setting.


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## Krug (Mar 7, 2003)

starwolf said:
			
		

> *Just another note.
> 
> I think we should be careful about how much Magic has to play in the city design. Why? you ask.
> 
> Because if Magic is too deeply intertwined into the city it will be hard for some of the "low-magic" world DM's to make use of the city. It is always easier for a DM to add magic to a setting than it is to remove magic form a setting. *




I agree... always keep in mind the utility of the city.

And lets not get carried away with the ministries. Lets have enough but not too many. As I said before, lets start with the basic three. But yes, wiz, you can be Minister of Education. 

Also we should be careful about how much of 'EN World' motifs we want to work in. 

1. The Lady ruler/"Grandma" thing is in
2. An area, or the Hives exist
3. Characters from EN World
4. The city should have area for tournaments, and an annual fair
(homage to EN World's first product TFT)
5. It's chaotic nature
6. A city for exchange of ideas

Most of the city is built with good, old sweat and muscle. (Hmm.. maybe an architect or dwarf enginner called Blacksway and Liquide? or a dwarven engineering firm called Blacksway and Liq?)

The city is founded on trade, so I'm not so sure about the mercenaries. There's definitely a lot of them in town, but not sure about exporting them.


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## wizardoftheplains (Mar 7, 2003)

Damn!  I mean 'dam'!
Not a bad idea.

btw.  krug posted another thread on city ministers.
it would allow those most interested to manage a thread of posts.



http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=749541#post749541


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## wizardoftheplains (Mar 7, 2003)

Krug said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I agree... always keep in mind the utility of the city.
> 
> ...




sorry, it's the coffee.


----------



## starwolf (Mar 7, 2003)

Well I didn't mean that it literally exports mercenaries.

It just that the City has become the preferred wintering spot of the most mercenary's and mercenary wannabe's. That adds to its "controlled chaos". I mean where else will you find a band of 100 blood-thirsty Set worshiping orcs "peacefully" co-existing with a clan of  Ptah worshiping Dwarves? Or is that blood-thirsty Set worshiping dwarves and Ptah worshiping Orcs?


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## Lalato (Mar 7, 2003)

> We can call him "The Russell"




I'm not sure about "The Russell"...  I'm trying to think of a way to call the "mayor" Administrator or Moderator, but I'm coming up blank.

How about Founder instead of Mayor or Russell?



> So what should be the Hook for E-City?




One of the obvious hooks is that the city is extremely rich in natural resources which makes it an important caravan stop.  Although it's far away from most other civilization, many people go out of there way to visit the (in)famous Mor's End.  Money attracts all sorts people... good and bad...  thieves and heroes...  men and mice...

The Dam idea is interesting...  It could be made to work, but I'm not sure it's absolutely necessary considering the hook provided above.

I liked your political hook until I got to the Mercenary part...  A large standing army would mean a very lawful place... and I think it would make better plot sense if the city is a bit more chaotic.

--sam


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## Knightfall (Mar 7, 2003)

Krug said:
			
		

> *And Thanks Knightfall for collating.  *




You're velcome!  

I did one more but that's it for me tonight.  No more typing.

[EDIT}

Ok, now I'm ACTUALLY done!

KF72


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## starwolf (Mar 7, 2003)

So, when did the mercenaries come into the picture?


Well in the early history of the City three guilds became embroiled in a bitter contest over the Clay beds....The Glittering Botherhood wanted complete control over the beds because of the sapphires.
However the Porcelin (sp?) Posse obviously felt the Clay was more important, while the Weavers chaffed at the monoply of the Gem cutters over there needed food source for the worms. Each in turn kept hiring in new muscle to try to force the others out.
The fighting escalated until one day "She" showed up. Now no one knows whether "she" was a leader of a troop, or another force, but in any case, She evidently had a hand in creating the "Code" that colors all activity within the City to this day..


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## starwolf (Mar 7, 2003)

I'm feeling particularly verbose this evening (no coffee needed). So I'm just throwing things at the walls to see if anything sticks.

Trash the word mercenary and replace with the Guild of Guards.
After all if the city is a magnet for caravans, all of those caravans are going to need guards.

As to the Dam...well I was just intrigued by the KnidV's artwork.....it made me think of really massive stonework, which made me think of Hoover Dam. And of course the Guild of Architects would be really just one large clan of Dwarves.


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## Knightfall (Mar 7, 2003)

lalato said:
			
		

> *How about this... there is a local cult to the Holy Grandmother...  The patron deity of the city.  There are whispers on the streets that the Holy Grandmother "walks among us"...  Sightings of the Holy Grandmother are often talked about... but none of the descriptions are ever quite the same.
> *




Sam, how about Holy Matriarch instead of Holy Grandmother.

For local little Gods I'd like to suggestion these options

Lake/River Goddess
God of the Mountain
Biting Insects/Marsh God

Just some ideas...

Ok, now I'm done for the evening.


----------



## Conaill (Mar 7, 2003)

Krug said:
			
		

> *
> Also we should be careful about how much of 'EN World' motifs we want to work in.*




Here's some other ones that could easily fit into a city setting:

- Officials with a "moderator" title. For example, the mayor could be called the Grand Moderator - an appropriate designation for someone who has to mediate between the mages and the guilds.

- Code of Conduct: perhaps a term for the city's constitution?

- Wackier suggestions: bulletin boards spread throughout the city, on which citizens exchange rumors; the local army is led by General "R.P.G. Discussion"; a mysterious feline pirate plying the waters of the lake; random garden gnome attacks... 

ok, I need to get some sleep!


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## Conaill (Mar 7, 2003)

Hmm... Having just bought my DM "A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe" from Expeditious Retreat Press for GM's day, it just struck me how useful this booklet would be for a project like this. It's chockfull of information on city layouts, trade, guilds, goverment, magic, etc.

http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=711

Heck, the entire 3rd chapter is "On the Magical Medieval City"... all 15 closely-spaced pages of it! Then chapter 4 is 13 pages full of tables on "Generating Towns and Cities". This stuff could save us a LOT of work!

I'll see if I can extract some guidelines for a city of our size from the tables. We may also want to get jgbrowning from Expeditious Retreat involved in this project...


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## Lalato (Mar 7, 2003)

Grand Moderator reminds me of Star Wars...  Grand Moff Tarkin...

Grand Mod Kulpin


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## Conaill (Mar 7, 2003)

BTW Krug: Have you decided on an exact population size for the city? Right now it says "25,000+ Metropolis". If we get a more exact number, we can use that as guideline for how high in level our top NPCs should be.

E.g. is "Grandma" a 16th level NPC, or an epic level one? How about the mayor? How about the head of the Mage's Guild? Using the demographics from the DMG and "A Magical Medieval Society" we can get some guidelines for those numbers based on the size of the city...


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## Krug (Mar 7, 2003)

Conaill said:
			
		

> *BTW Krug: Have you decided on an exact population size for the city? Right now it says "25,000+ Metropolis". If we get a more exact number, we can use that as guideline for how high in level our top NPCs should be.
> 
> E.g. is "Grandma" a 16th level NPC, or an epic level one? How about the mayor? How about the head of the Mage's Guild? Using the demographics from the DMG and "A Magical Medieval Society" we can get some guidelines for those numbers based on the size of the city... *




Hmm.. how does 10,000 sound? Since EN World is getting its 10k member soon. 

I have MMS but haven't had time to look at it. (Story of my PDFs.) So what does the book tell you with a population that size? 

A 16th lvel Grandma sounds powerful enough. Armed with the deadly rolling pin of death.. 

Ok if there are no other objections, Mor's End is the name of the city and Kul Moren the Dwarven settlement, and Enheim the area. 
Kul Moren will have a population of about 800, and the fishing village 500. This is so they don't overshadow Mor's End.

(Not that auspicious a name though... why would one call it Mor's End? Or just Mor-En/En-Mor?)


----------



## Conaill (Mar 7, 2003)

Krug said:
			
		

> *Hmm.. how does 10,000 sound?*




Ah! Then we're in the "Small City" category (5000-12000), no longer "Metropolis". That will change things quite a bit...

According to MMS, a Small City has a population density of 80-120 adults/acre, and 40-60 structures/acre. That comes to a total of about 100 acres (less than 1/2 a mile side-to-side!) and ~5000 structures.

For your amusement, also check out Jamis Buck's town generator:

http://www.aarg.net/~minam/towns.cgi?size=6&seed=

Just as an example of what you can do just with the demographics rules from the DMG!


----------



## wizardoftheplains (Mar 7, 2003)

Krug said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Hmm.. how does 10,000 sound? Since EN World is getting its 10k member soon.
> 
> ...




Hmmm.  I like all the above.

Just had a thought about Intrigue.  Have an Mor's End Tavern Thread for the posting of all gossip/rumors relating to the city.  Any posts that don't fit neatly into the Minister threads can find a home there.  It's a thread available for continual subject hijacking.


----------



## Lalato (Mar 8, 2003)

> why would one call it Mor's End? Or just Mor-En/En-Mor?




The Barbarian Explorer, Noahn Deleric, was the first man to lay claim to the area...  His grandmother, Nonna Deleric, was the one really in control, though...  Because of her, Noahn's followers raided caravan after caravan...  looting them for treasure and information...  The information was for Noahn's Grandmother...  she wanted to know everything she could about her arch enemy, the wizard Ovder Khost.

In a moment of strong will...  Noahn broke free of the enchantments his grandmother had placed on him...

---------

I'm stuck here...  I'm thinking that Noahn banishes his grandmother...  and decides to explore the rest of the world...  He splits the area between his two best men...  Rusol Mor and Kulpin...  Kulpin continues raiding caravans, but Rusol Mor decides that there is more money in trading than in raiding...  He takes his END of the lake...  and decides to build a settlement...  thus Mor's End... as in Mor's end, or side, of the lake...

--sam


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## Knightfall (Mar 8, 2003)

Krug said:
			
		

> *(Not that auspicious a name though... why would one call it Mor's End?*




For me the reasoning was that the river would be called the Mor River and that the city was named Mor's End because it sits near/at the end of river where it meets the lake.

KF72


----------



## Knightfall (Mar 8, 2003)

*Moved to page four!*

Moved to page four!


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## Krug (Mar 8, 2003)

Thanks Knightfall. 
Mor's End it'll be. All this is looking very good.

wizardofthe plains: how about something else other than spider-kin for the 'thing' that's disturbed?

lalato: Catoblepas hunting; elaborate perhaps. What about those stricken to death by it? Hunting always seemed to me only interesting if the hunters had a tremendous advantage. 

Knightfall: There should be at least a 1-2% 'other' in the population mix. Gobbos, Kobolds, monstrous beings... as long as you have a purpose you may enter the city.


----------



## wizardoftheplains (Mar 8, 2003)

Thanks for summarizing again  Lots of info.
I'm going to edit this offline a bit for the government thread I'm starting.  I'll focus on the political structure.
Is it okay if I take off the names of the creators since they're posted elsewhere?  I can keep them on if you all want.
I'll start by listing those that gave input at the top of the thread and then summarize.  I'll leave government/political choices in and as people have other ideas or start voting with their comments I'll remove some of the less popular idea.  Then I'll periodically post results back into this thread.


----------



## Knightfall (Mar 8, 2003)

Krug said:
			
		

> *Thanks Knightfall.
> Mor's End it'll be. All this is looking very good.
> 
> Catoblepas hunting; elaborate perhaps. What about those stricken to death by it? Hunting always seemed to me only interesting if the hunters had a tremendous advantage.
> ...




you're velcome, again!  

Actually, catoblepas hunting was my idea.  And think of it as a cult of god of pain and suffering.  They hunt a dangerous creature in order to risk pain in the name of their god.  They're not a secret society but they do tend to be shunned at gatherings for their many scars and garrish outfits.

And I'll add the 1-2% 'other' in a minute.

Anything else you want to make semi-final?  (Perhaps the Matriarch of the city.)


----------



## Knightfall (Mar 8, 2003)

wizardoftheplains said:
			
		

> *Is it okay if I take off the names of the creators since they're posted elsewhere?*




Ask and ye shall receive.


----------



## wizardoftheplains (Mar 8, 2003)

Krug said:
			
		

> *Thanks Knightfall.
> Mor's End it'll be. All this is looking very good.
> 
> wizardofthe plains: how about something else other than spider-kin for the 'thing' that's disturbed?
> ...




How about...
Some years ago, abandoned underground warrens were discovered beneath part of the city...a myriad of tunnels that the population uses for a underworld nightlife scene, storage (meat lockers, grain, and supplieds, and defense in a time of war. Unbeknownst to but a few of the cities inhabitants, the tunnels lead deep into the earth, to the resting place of an ancient creature from the First Age, a gargantuan arachnid buried in eons ago, currently in a state of prolonged (eon-long) hibernation deep below Mor's End.

The tunnels themselves were the work of a clever race of dark gnomes, who revered the sleeping creature as a god, and built an underground city/tunnel complex around it. They disappeared during the creature's last awakening, when they collectively offered themselves to their entombed god in a mad desire to keep it alive through another age...or so the legend goes.

(Even though I think the ELH is broken, I love the giant buried monstrosity angle.  What do you all think?)


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## Krug (Mar 8, 2003)

Wizard> Well your first duty is to choose the leader of the city! 

Yes, Catoblepas cult hunting sounds good. Makes more sense. 

Arachnid > Hmm.. ok. As long as it's not drow!


----------



## Knightfall (Mar 8, 2003)

Krug said:
			
		

> *Wizard> Well your first duty is to choose the leader of the city!
> 
> Yes, Catoblepas cult hunting sounds good. Makes more sense.
> 
> Arachnid > Hmm.. ok. As long as it's not drow! *




Wizard: Please don't simply call her Eric's Grandmother if you go with that analogy.

Also, please no drow spider queen.  This isn't the Fogotten Realms.  No Drow! No Drow!

Krug: Yes, I thought you might like that.  Can't you just see them riding forth on reptilian horses with drooling, savage hunting dogs running ahead of them.

Hmm... horse with reptilian template and hunting dog with feral template.  Hmm...



Rob


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## wizardoftheplains (Mar 8, 2003)

someone give me another gargantuan besides a spider or great ape

no drow...never.  

i'm thinking over the ruler bit.


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## Knightfall (Mar 8, 2003)

wizardoftheplains said:
			
		

> *someone give me another gargantuan besides a spider or great ape
> 
> no drow...never.
> 
> i'm thinking over the ruler bit. *




My vote: Yes, no drow... ever.  I hate drow.  They are so overused.

Another gargantuan: 14 - 27 HD Behir (MM page 24)

{EDIT}

Fiendwrym (MM II page 99) (Gargantuan Magical Beast) *

Linnorm, Corpse Tearer (MM II page 141-144) (Gargantuan Dragon)

Megapede (MM II page 148) (Colossal Vermin) 

Teratomorph (MM II page 194) (Gargantuan Ooze)


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## wizardoftheplains (Mar 8, 2003)

EN World City Project
I’m paraphrasing our list into a bit of a intro piece.  It still needs some wordsmithing.

Mor's End

Summary
Known as the City of Crafts by some, and the City of Coins by others.  It is an independent City-state in the region of Enheim.  A self-sufficient city, known far and wide for it’s abundance of natural resources, rather large artisian community, and as a melting pot of races, idealogies, and professions from all over.

Built on the banks of the Mor River, an outpouring that is continually fed by Lake _____, Mor’s End stands at the conjunction of a number of trade routes, giving rise to one of it’s other nicknames, “The City of Coins”.  For indeed, much coin does flow through the river town.  With the nearby dwarven community of Kul Moran providing abundant iron ingots for trade downriver to the rare clays that are used in the special glazes are very sought after by craftsmen and nobles everywhere to the rare river sapphires used as spell ingredients to the unnaturally strong but beautiful fisher silk, Mor’s End has much to offer.

Some wonder why such an area was not already teaming with civilization when the founder’s of Mor’s End first topped the nearby hills and set eyes upon the plains below.  The answer, says the locals, lies somewhere in the ancient warren rumored to be beneath the city proper.  Perhaps time will tell.

Government
Such a chaotic city needs a strong ruler, and they have one in the person of Lady Kelvin, Matriarch of Mor’s End.  Little seen in public these days, she nevertheless makes her presence felt through the actions of the city’s ruling council.  This leadership body, lead by Prime Minister Krug, keep the diverse and sometimes anarchic city humming.

But anyone who has spent much time in Mor’s End knows that there is another force at work within the city.  Two actually, in the form of the Glittering Brotherhood and the Merchants’ Guild.  The Brotherhood guard the secret of cutting the river sapphires to bring out their magical properties, while the Merchants’ Guild are masters at contract negotiation and enforcement.  These two rivals each seek to manipulate the council to their own ends.  It is only the mind fo the Lady Kelvin, long trained in intrigue, that keeps the council one step ahead of the Guilds.

That’s all I have for now.  Must go jogging to clear my head.  Will check back later to see what you all think.
I tried to combine many of the items everyone talked about into story format.

gary


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## wizardoftheplains (Mar 8, 2003)

Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> Teratomorph (MM II page 194) (Gargantuan Ooze) *




Oh, it's got to be the Ooze.  And it makes since, being by a great lake.
Every so often, tendrils of it snake up through the tunnels and grab an inhabitant or two of the city.  Yes... <said in a scary whisper>


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## Krug (Mar 8, 2003)

Very cool. We're getting there.

Some info about sapphires:

http://www.nrm.qld.gov.au/mines/fossicking/sapphire.html

http://www.mindfully.org/Heritage/Sapphires-Madagascar-Crises.htm

Latter is pretty interesting. I can see a small community of rural folk coming to dig for sapphires, but abused and manipulated to work for low wages by the merchants of the city. Mercenaries of these merchants abuse the diggers and exploit them. Perhaps even a front for slavers. 

Silkworm farming:
http://www.geocities.com/ibr_remote/silk/silkworms.html

http://www.tsof.edu.au/lt.sa/ltproj...its/church/silkworms/infopp/silkpp/sld001.htm

http://www.mediamessage.com/kayton/Silkworms/history.htm

Clay: 
not much that's solid, but I can imagine a cult who express their ecstacy in 'clay' creations, or create temporary constructs employing Clay. 

But all these are details helpful in fleshing out. We should look at these components as modular; able to be taken out and fitted into other campaigns as easily as possible.


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## Krug (Mar 8, 2003)

wizardoftheplains said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Oh, it's got to be the Ooze.  And it makes since, being by a great lake.
> Every so often, tendrils of it snake up through the tunnels and grab an inhabitant or two of the city.  Yes... <said in a scary whisper> *




Ah yes I see potential for a Minister of Monsters. 

Though I like the Ooze, perhaps some creature that can have servitors. I don't think ooze have servants, though there might be a cult dedicated to... the ooze!


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## Conaill (Mar 8, 2003)

Ah, a ctulhoid ooze seeping through the sewers, excellent! 

Knightfall: I don't think it's really possible to have *two* rivers coming out of the lake. Water will always follow the path of least resistance, so it will carve out *one* riverbed. Of course, if the waterlevel is rising you can have as much swamp area around the lake as you want. That does imply there's something restricting the outflow of water though!


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## starwolf (Mar 8, 2003)

Krug said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Ah yes I see potential for a Minister of Monsters.
> 
> Though I like the Ooze, perhaps some creature that can have servitors. I don't think ooze have servants, though there might be a cult dedicated to... the ooze! *




With it's High Priest Crothian, who has a tendency to constantly post flyers all over the city seeking converts.....

Edit: And of course don't forget the head of the Potters Guild. Alsi.... Who has soem kind of connection with the Kulpin, but nobody is quite sure what it is.....


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## Conaill (Mar 8, 2003)

*Re: Summerized Ideas!  Moved from Page Two!*



			
				Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> *Integrated - 36% human, 19% dwarf, 18% gnome, 10% halfling, 7% elf, 5% half-orc, 3% half-elf, 2% other. *




How about using the ratios given by the recent What Race are You Currently Playing poll? Here's the results:

Human 45.14%
Elf 12.57%
Dwarf  11.43%
Half-Elf 5.71%
Halfling 5.71%
Gnome 5.14%
Half-Orc 2.86%
Other Humanoid (Tiefling, Githyanki, Kobold, etc) 8.00%
Other Monster Race (Mindflayer, Elemental, Awakened Animal, etc) 1.71%
Other Other (something alltogether different) 1.71%

It's a little higher on humans and elves, but what the heck...


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## Knightfall (Mar 8, 2003)

Conaill said:
			
		

> *I don't think it's really possible to have *two* rivers coming out of the lake. Water will always follow the path of least resistance, so it will carve out *one* riverbed. Of course, if the waterlevel is rising you can have as much swamp area around the lake as you want. That does imply there's something restricting the outflow of water though! *




Ah, I was referring the river that already exists on the map Grey Dwarf did, not a second river on the other side of the lake.



			
				Conaill said:
			
		

> *
> 
> How about using the ratios given by the recent What Race are You Currently Playing poll?*




Those numbers are a little complicated, even rounded.  We want to keep this simple and not go too crazy.  It's not like the demographics are written in stone.  Let's initialize the 'key' stuff first.

Opinions?


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## Krug (Mar 8, 2003)

Yet another interesting website on the development of a medieval town:

http://www.trytel.com/~tristan/towns/towns.html#menu

Conail: I think the elf % should go down.  Dwarves should be quite dominant given the location.

Knightfall: I'll leave the final decision to you.


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## Knightfall (Mar 8, 2003)

Krug said:
			
		

> *I think the elf % should go down.  Dwarves should be quite dominant given the location. *




Thus, my original numbers but I'll bend to the will of the group and change it tomorrow.  By then I'll probably have to move it to page four.

BTW, I can't get involved with being a Minister.  My life is just to chaotic and painful right now.  But I will stick around a help bring things together on this thread.

Sal'right?

More random monster suggestion: Ash rat (MM II, pg 24), Avolakia [MM II, pg 28 (Int 16, underground menace)], Bronze Serpent [MM II, pg 40 (Construct, guardian of hidden temple on island)], Darktentacles [MM II, pg 54 (marsh dweller)], Dune Stalker [MM II, pg 88 (for those southern desert lands)], and finally the Felldrakes [MM II pg. 97 - 99 (cuz they're cool).


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## Knightfall (Mar 8, 2003)

Ok, I'm done for the night.  Later!

KF72

p.s.  Oww... need ice.


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## Krug (Mar 8, 2003)

Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Sal'right?
> 
> *




S'alright. You do the fine job already. 
Anyway you can decide the numbers. I don't see a need to change them greatly since they're a guide. I also think the % of others could still be adjusted downwards for non-humanoid types.


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## starwolf (Mar 8, 2003)

Perhaps one of the many "contests" or public input threads could be the design of "What Lurks Beneath?".

Rather than using an already published creature we could ask for MM compatible entries?


Considering that most DM's would prefer to have something this large be campaign specific, maybe it should be just a big mysterious Plot Hook.


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## Krug (Mar 8, 2003)

starwolf said:
			
		

> *Perhaps one of the many "contests" or public input threads could be the design of "What Lurks Beneath?".
> 
> Rather than using an already published creature we could ask for MM compatible entries?
> 
> ...




Hmm not a bad idea. Since it's not impt to the development of the city right now. We could list the ideas as options as well. modularity, after all.


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## Lalato (Mar 8, 2003)

Are we still hinting that Lady Kelvin, might be Eric's Grandmother... or have we completely dropped that?  Or were we going to go with a Holy Grandmother cult?

--sam


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## Krug (Mar 8, 2003)

lalato said:
			
		

> *Are we still hinting that Lady Kelvin, might be Eric's Grandmother... or have we completely dropped that?  Or were we going to go with a Holy Grandmother cult?
> 
> --sam *




Minister of Governance, Wizard of the plains is making the final decision. You may plead your case for your idea.


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## Buttercup (Mar 8, 2003)

I would like to plead that we ditch the whole Eric's Grandmother idea.  With all respect to everyone who has been working on it, it's just...icky.  Even though this is the EN World City Project, we want the city to be useable in many settings.  Inside jokes and references make that less likely, and get old really quick.  One or two are fine, but we already have them in the place names.

Anyway, on to other things I wanted to bring up.  I'm working on the general statement about trade and crafts, and thinking about a template, which I think is pretty important.  Once I have something (I have to work today, so probably I won't get it done until tomorrow) I'll post a draft in the admin thread.  I think the template is pretty important, because it will be the framework for all of the locations in the city.  NPC stat blocks are pretty standard, but it seems like every publisher does their locations differently.  

I like the idea of having What Lurks Beneath undefined.  We could certainly offer a suggestion or two, but I think most DMs would rather come up with that on their own.  I know I would.

Re the racial demographics, I think we need far more dwarves and far fewer elves.  Considering the proximity of Kul Moren and that the city is one of artisans, dwarves would be drawn to it, and elves would probably not like it.  They would want to go hug trees somewhere far away from all the evil industry.

Finally, a note on modularity.  I don't think it's possible for us to overemphasize this.  The end product should, IMO, allow a DM to *easily* use the parts that appeal, and throw out the others.  So when we are designing stuff such as history, secret organizations, government, guilds and so forth, let us all please minimize references to anything that would make that difficult.  I'm not aiming this comment at anyone.  I just think it's so important that we should each be mindful of it every step of the way.  As with building a house, it's easier to change the wiring before the drywall is up.  So you'll have to forgive me if I keep harping on it.  'Cause I'm going to.


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## wizardoftheplains (Mar 8, 2003)

Good Morning.
The Minister of Governmental Affairs just finished his pancakes  

What lurks beneath.  I agree.  It will be kept undefined.  The ooze and other sujjections could appear in a Rumor or Goings on at the Tavern Section.  The DM determines if they are true or not.

Modularity is good.  I did the write up above as an intro for flavor, trying to suggest, but not define too much.
DMs/Players need a starting point.  After an intro the actual specific stats that were posted earlier could appear.  Each minister could then have 1 page.  "report from the minister of blank" with modular specifics.  And then end it with a Rumors page.  Every DM can choose from the many things we offer and have their own Mor's End.

I won't refer to the grandmother but I'm putting a woman in charge. If there aren't any objections.  Lady Kelvin.
Keeping her a bit mysterious lets the DM put in their own female protagonist/antagonist/leader/ally/etc.

So
Intro Piece  (shorter)
Prime Minister Speak (Specific Stats)
Report by Minister of Blank  (Flavor piece plus specifics)
Report by Minister of Blank  (Flavor piece plus specifics)
Report by Minister of Blank  (Flavor piece plus specifics)
Report by Minister of Blank  (Flavor piece plus specifics)
Rumors at the Inn.

Map included
Anyone like this format?  Just a suggestion.


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## Krug (Mar 8, 2003)

Lady Kelvin it is, the beleagured leader trying to keep a hold on her independent city-state. In a feudal lord the city's trade and position would be much admired; in a frontier land her city is one of the furthest spots, an outpost serving civilized settlements. She moves around the city unseen. The daily duties of running the city are done by a Castellian and other officials, perhaps.


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## Lalato (Mar 8, 2003)

To be honest... I'm happy that we're not using the Eric's Grandmother angle as the shadowy ruler of the city.  Lady Kelvin works for me... and her name is Nonna Deleric which is a veiled reference to the Eric's Grandmother thing anyway.

I'm still intrigued by the idea that Lady Kelvin might have a few ranks in the PrC:  Entropist.  That would add a certain flavor...

EDIT:  A search on google yielded that the Entropist is a Cleric PrC from Tome & Blook p. 58...  The alignment of the class is Lawful Evil...  but that doesn't mean we can't create our own Arcane Entropist class for Lady Kelvin...

Just a thought... take it or leave it...  
--sam


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## Lalato (Mar 8, 2003)

Another thought... If we use that alternate history for the naming of Mor's End... the names should be as follows...

I know its a bit wacky... and rife with inside jokes, but since this is basically the pre-history of the city, it shouldn't affect the real goings on of the city.

Erek Noahn:  Barbarian Explorer that layed claim to the area and raided caravans until he had a change of heart.

Erek's Grandmother (Unnamed):  Witch that controlled Erek... and searched for info on her arch enemy Ovder Khost:

Ovder Khost:  Famed wizard... and arch enemy of Erek's Grandmother

Rusol Mor:  The man who ended is caravan raiding to found the city

The Kulpin:  The man who stayed a caravan raider.  Later... he plied the waters of Lake Enoria as a pirate... overtaking ships hauling the precious fisher-silk.  

Again... I know the above is full of inside jokes... but since this is pre-history it works better here... than in the actual current city stuff.

As always... I'm just throwing it out there...  Let me know what you think.  

--sam


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## wizardoftheplains (Mar 8, 2003)

Krug said:
			
		

> *Lady Kelvin it is, the beleagured leader trying to keep a hold on her independent city-state. In a feudal lord the city's trade and position would be much admired; in a frontier land her city is one of the furthest spots, an outpost serving civilized settlements. She moves around the city unseen. The daily duties of running the city are done by a Castellian and other officials, perhaps. *




Agree!


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## wizardoftheplains (Mar 8, 2003)

Ministers, here is my rough draft for the Government Thread.  Can you all look over and make suggestions before I post into a new thread.  I’ll wait till I hear back from at least 3 of the ministers.   Please be honest and open as you help me refine this.  Thanks.  gary

Hail inhabitants of En World!  Welcome to the EN World City Project GOVERNMENT idea submission thread.  This thread is dedicated to the exploration of the Government and Politics behind the En World City Poject.  Please take a moment and peruse this thread (and some of the others located in Plots and Places) and help us develop the city further.

Government Questions (feel free to post your thoughts on the following).  As ideas develop we’ll mold the politcal structure of the city.  As is the nature of these boards, the city will be open to diverse ideas and be a bit chaotic at times.  Nevertheless, Mor’s End has managed to become a thriving city.

Background:  Mor’s End.
Known as the City of Crafts by some, and the City of Coins by others.  It is an independent City-state in the region of Enheim.  A self-sufficient city, known far and wide for it’s abundance of natural resources, rather large artisian community, and as a melting pot of races, idealogies, and professions from all over.

Population: 10,200 (Small City): Integrated - 37% human, 20% dwarf, 18% gnome, 10% halfling, 7% elf, 5%
Resources: Iron, sapphires, clay/pottery, cattle, silk

GOVERNMENT
Such a chaotic city needs a strong ruler, and they have one in the person of Lady Kelvin, Matriarch of Mor’s End.  Little seen in public these days, she nevertheless makes her presence felt through the actions of the city’s ruling council.  This leadership body, lead by Prime Minister Krug, keep the diverse and sometimes anarchic city humming.

Questions I pose to you all regarding Mor’s End Governmental Issues:

1.  The Leader is a mysterious female matriarch, hardly ever seen in public.  Lady Kelvin is a beleagured leader trying to keep a hold on her independent city-state. In a feudal lord the city's trade and position would be much admired; in a frontier land her city is one of the furthest spots, an outpost serving civilized settlements. She moves around the city unseen. The daily duties of running the city are done by a Castellian and other officials, perhaps.  Post some rumors in this thread as to who she is and how she came to power.

2.  The day to day governmental workings of Mor’s End is managed by the House of Ministers.  They post the laws, settle agreements, and keep the city going.  We have a few EN World people in a few of these positions, but what are the others’ personalities and secret goals of these ministers?  And what is.  Post here.

3.  Military.  What type of standing army does it have?  Composed of companies of mercenaries, city guards, loyal guardsmen, etc?  Please post any thoughts you have here.

4.  Intrigue.  Every city has a few secret societies that influence the government and businesses within it.  Come up with a few.  Currently we have the Glittering brotherhood which holds the secret of cutting the Mor’s river sapphire in a way that brings out their magical qualities, and the Merchant’s Guild, which holds a monopoly on trade coming through the town.  What part does the Thieves Guild, the University, or other organizations such as Houses play?  Is there a secret police? 

5.  Allies.  Mor’s End is currently eoconomically allied with a nearby dwarven community called Kul Moran.  Who is their leader and what are that community’s motivations with allying with Mor’s End?  What other economic or military allies does Mor’s End have?  Post here.

6.  Temples and Religion.   The city has a collection of small local gods.  Not important to develop larger ones since this city is ment to be adaptable to many DM campaigns who’ll usually import their own gods.  But any of the local dieties or beliefs particularly stand out...and why.  Especially if they have any political muscle.  Post here.

7.  Threats.  What constantly threatens the city of Mor’s End, keeping the government always on the watch and how does the government deal with these threats...ignore, keep a militia?  Is is maurauding band of ceatures nearby.  Post here.

8.  Anything else involving the government.  Post here.

Note: Other threads dealing with the economy, trade, crafts, npcs, etc. of Mor's End will be posted soon by the various Ministers.  Add your two cents to the creation of this fair city.


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## Buttercup (Mar 8, 2003)

wiz-o-plains   I'm on my lunch break right now, and really only have another minute or two.  But I saw some grammatical errors that I'd like to correct, although generally your introduction looks excellent. (Like I said up above, I'm anal.) I won't be able to do that until this evening, around 8:00 or so.  Can you wait that long before posting?  Sorry I don't have time to do it now.  Crazy day in the library.

Gotta run.


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## Knightfall (Mar 8, 2003)

wizardoftheplains said:
			
		

> *Population: 10,200 (Small City): Integrated - 37% human, 20% dwarf, 18% gnome, 10% halfling, 7% elf, 5% (???)*




Wiz, I've come up with some different population numbers based on that EN World Poll, although I leaned heavily towards the dwarven connection.

Here you go:

*Population:* 10,200 (small city): Integrated - 40% human, 20% dwarf, 13% gnome, 8% humanoid, 6% halfling, 6% elf, 4% half-orc, 2% monstrous, 1% half-elf.

{EDIT}

Also, how's this:

*Ruler:* The Lady Kelvin, Matriarch of Mor's End (N female human Ari4/Rog6/Sor6).

*Other Noteable Characters:* The Castellian (LN male dwarf Ftr5/Clr5)

We keep the Lady Kelvin and the Castellian generic.  No real names.  Plus, her 'second' being a dwarf makes sense.

Later,

Rob


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## Lalato (Mar 8, 2003)

Peeks over his pint of Guiness and says, "Was I at the bar when you said that?"

Where did the Castellian come from?  I guess I didn't notice this before...

Thanks for the 411,
--sam


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## Conaill (Mar 8, 2003)

Castellan. Drop the "i". No respectable dwarf would call himself a castell*i*an. That's a poufta elvish title! 

Krug off-handedly suggested a castellan as a second-in-command. Dunno if we wantto have both a Castellan and a Prime Minister though... sounds a little too top-heavy perhaps?


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## wizardoftheplains (Mar 8, 2003)

Buttercup said:
			
		

> *wiz-o-plains   I'm on my lunch break right now, and really only have another minute or two.  But I saw some grammatical errors that I'd like to correct, although generally your introduction looks excellent. (Like I said up above, I'm anal.) I won't be able to do that until this evening, around 8:00 or so.  Can you wait that long before posting?  Sorry I don't have time to do it now.  Crazy day in the library.
> 
> Gotta run. *




Buttercup,
I say 'edit away!'  Thanks very much for taking the time.
I won't post thread until tomorrow.

Lalato,
The Castellian came from a recent post of Krug's. I liked the titled so kept it in.

Knightfall1972,
I'll make sure and put your update stats in the post.
The dwarf is a nice idea.

g.


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## wizardoftheplains (Mar 8, 2003)

Conaill said:
			
		

> *Castellan. Drop the "i". No respectable dwarf would call himself a castellian. That's a poufta elvish title!
> 
> Krug off-handedly suggested a castellan as a second-in-command. Dunno if we wantto have both a Castellan and a Prime Minister though... sounds a little too top-heavy perhaps? *




I'll drop the Prime Minister from the mix.

Castellan it is!

g.


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## Knightfall (Mar 8, 2003)

*Moving time again!*

Mobved to page five


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## Krug (Mar 8, 2003)

Hmm.. I think the Castelllian should be human, and no he shouldn't be called Krug.  He only has a wish for money, not power. 

Perhaps Althea Stangus, a Human or Half-Elf F6/Ar4? 

What's a sexier name for 'Ministers'? Perhaps we should use something else so that city Ministers aren't confused with project Ministers. 
The thesaurus says: administrator, agent, aide, ambassador, assistant, cabinet member, consul, delegate, diplomat, envoy, executive, legate, liaison, lietenant, officeholder, official, plenipotentiary, premier, prime minister, secretary, statesman

Minister for Govt has to decide. 

Additionally, I think there should an area called *the Squats*. This is where the squatters, composed of the lower class, refugees and rural folk just arrived in town, reside. Some part of the Squats extend into the warrens, despite the warnings of the local watchguards. 

The Squats has an open area called *the Brown Market* (named so for the colour of the water there) where anyone may set up a shop or stall. Most stalls sell food or other small household items. Various gangs assert their territorial rights here, collecting 'protection money' from stall owners and bashing pickpockets. Jongleurs and entertainers are also prominent, and surrounding the market are a bunch of seedy taverns and inns catering to out of towners and those passing by.

Magic shop: I think it's all right if we add a caveat. Has to be  convincing though.


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## Buttercup (Mar 9, 2003)

wizardoftheplains said:
			
		

> *Hail inhabitants of En World!  Welcome to the EN World City Project GOVERNMENT idea submission thread.  This thread is dedicated to the exploration of the Government and Politics behind the En World City Poject.  Please take a moment and peruse this thread (and some of the others located in Plots and Places) and help us develop the city further.
> 
> Government Questions (feel free to post your thoughts on the following).  As ideas develop we’ll mold the politcal structure of the city.  As is the nature of these boards, the city will be open to diverse ideas and be a bit chaotic at times.  Nevertheless, Mor’s End has managed to become a thriving city.*




I'm going to post my corrections or suggested changes in bold, so they're easy to see.

Background:  Mor’s End.
Known as the City of Crafts by some, and the City of Coins by others*, it* is an independent City-state in the region of Enheim. *It is a* self-sufficient city, known far and wide for it’s abundance of natural resources, rather large artisian community, and as a melting pot of races, idealogies, and professions from all over.

Population: 10,200 (Small City): Integrated - 37% human, 20% dwarf, 18% gnome, 10% halfling, 7% elf, 5%
Resources: Iron, sapphires, clay/pottery, cattle, silk

GOVERNMENT
Such a chaotic city needs a strong ruler, and *it* has one in the person of Lady Kelvin, Matriarch of Mor’s End.  Little seen in public these days, she nevertheless makes her presence felt through the actions of the city’s ruling council.  This leadership body, lead by Prime Minister Krug, keep the diverse and sometimes anarchic *(Wiz, I was thinking that chaotic or maybe undisciplined, or even wild would be better. Anarchic means no government, and we just said there is one.)* city humming.

Questions I pose to you all regarding Mor’s End Governmental Issues:

1.  The Leader is a mysterious female matriarch, hardly ever seen in public.  Lady Kelvin is a beleagured leader trying to keep a hold on her independent city-state. In a feudal lord *(should this be feudal land?  lord doesn't make any sense in this context, IMO)* the city's trade and position would be much admired; in a frontier land her city is one of the furthest spots, an outpost serving civilized settlements. She moves around the city unseen. The daily duties of running the city are done by a Castellan*(spelling corrected)* and other officials, perhaps.  Post some rumors in this thread as to who she is and how she came to power.

2.  The day to day governmental workings of Mor’s End is*(are, not is)* managed by the House of Ministers.  They post the laws, settle *(dis)*agreements, and keep the city going.  We have a few EN World people in a few of these positions, but what are the others’ personalities and secret goals of these ministers?  And what is.*(<--eh?  What is what?)*  Post here.

3.  Military.  What type of standing army does it*(the city instead of it, I think)* have?  Composed of companies of mercenaries, city guards, loyal guardsmen, etc?  Please post any thoughts you have here.

4.  Intrigue.  Every city has a few secret societies that influence the government and businesses within it.  Come up with a few.  Currently we have the Glittering brotherhood which holds the secret of cutting the Mor’s river*(is it Mor's River or Mor River?  I don't know, but we should be consistent, whichever we choose)* sapphire*s* in a way that brings out their magical qualities, and the Merchant’s Guild, which holds a monopoly on trade coming through the town.  What part does the Thieves Guild, the University, or other organizations such as Houses *(do you mean Noble Houses?)*play?  Is there a secret police? 

5.  Allies.  Mor’s End is currently eoconomically allied with a nearby dwarven community called Kul Moran.  Who is their leader and what are that community’s motivations with*(in instead of with, I think)* allying with Mor’s End?  What other economic or military allies does Mor’s End have?  Post here.

6.  Temples and Religion.   The city has a collection of small local gods.  Not important to develop larger ones since this city is ment*meant* to be adaptable to many DM campaigns who’ll usually import their own gods.  But *do* any of the local dieties or beliefs particularly stand out...and why.  Especially if they have any political muscle.  Post here.

7.  Threats.  What constantly*(I'd take out the word constantly, since you get the same meaning with the word always that you used below)* threatens the city of Mor’s End, keeping the government always on the watch and how does the government deal with these threats...ignore, keep a militia?  Is is maurauding band of ceatures nearby.*(? instead of .)* Post here.

8.  Anything else involving the government.  Post here.

Note: Other threads dealing with the economy, trade, crafts, npcs, etc. of Mor's End will be posted soon by the various Ministers.  Add your two cents to the creation of this fair city. 

-----

See, there wasn't very much, and it was all minor.  You did a great job, I think!


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## Buttercup (Mar 9, 2003)

Krug said:
			
		

> *What's a sexier name for 'Ministers'?*




Aldermen
Council Members
Barristers (not exactly synonomous, but I like the word)
The Conclave
Dukes/Duchesses
Assembly Members
Advisors
Wardens or Warders(especially good if there is one for each "ward" of the city)
Guides
Chancellors


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## Lalato (Mar 9, 2003)

> What's a sexier name for 'Ministers'?




Moderator was suggested in an earlier post, I think by Conaill.

How about Overseer?

--sam


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## Jolly Giant (Mar 9, 2003)

Wow! I go away for two days, and come back to find you guys have done this amazing amount of brilliant work already! Consider me stunned!  

Glad to see you've cut down on the most obvious in-jokes an ENworld references, though. I was very disappointed to see Entropia/Entropy leading the poll, as I thought that poll was gonna be the final word. "Nonna Deleric" is good; it's a subtle joke and sounds like an actual name. "Eric's Grandma" on the other hand, is an obvious joke-name and I'm glad it was dropped.

I feel kinda like an intruder now, butting in at this late stage, but if their's anything I could do, just say the world... Also, if you feel I'm too much of a late arrival, just say the word, and I'll get out of your way. I will not be offended if you do!

Maybe I could start considering what kind of districts the city should have? How they are located in respect to each other, etc... 

I'm up for pretty much anything, as long as nobody asks me to draw anything!


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## Lalato (Mar 9, 2003)

From Knightfall1972's excellent summary, The Overview is edited below...

I kept the inside jokes...  since the pre-history of the city is probably the best place to keep them.

Feel free to edit or delete...  
--sam


Overview:  Erek Noahn, the infamous barbarian explorer, was the first human to lay claim to the area now known as Enheim.  With the help of his grandmother, a witch of great power, he was able to control the caravan routes that used Lake Enoria as a resting point.

Over time, Noahn's grandmother exerted more control over him and his followers.  She was no longer interested in treasure from the caravans...  instead she wanted information.  She had divined that an old enemy, the great wizard Auv'dur Khost, was spying on her through the very caravans her grandson was raiding.  Khost was out to destroy the old witch.  In her eyes, Khost had gone too far.  Indeed, he had changed the rules of the game.

Due to her dark influence, Noahn's followers raided caravan after caravan, killing all except those that could provide information on Khost.  These spies were allowed to return to Khost as a warning that the witch was ready for anything he might deliver.

In a moment of strong will Noahn broke free of the enchantments the witch had placed on him.  He couldn't bare to kill his grandmother, so he banished her instead.   She was never heard from again, though many believe she went on to infest the city south of the swamp with her evil.

Erek Noahn then split the regoin between his two best men:  Rusol Mor and Katze Kulpin.  Katze Kulpin continued raiding caravans.  Rusol Mor decided that there was more money in trading than in raiding.  He built a settlement.  In later years, Katze Kulpin, was known as the pirate of the lake because he often raided the small boats carrying the precious fisher-silk.  

And what of Erek Noahn?  No one knows for sure, but some say he completely abandon his barbarous ways and eventually became a wizard and a loremaster.

The river is named for Rusol Mor, and his settlement became known as Mor's End.   Also known as the City of Crafts by some, and the City of Coins by others. It is an independent City-State in the region known as Enheim.   

Mor's End is a self-sufficient city, known far and wide for it’s abundance of natural resources and large artisan community.  It is a melting pot of races, idealogies, and professions from all over the known world.

Built on the banks of the Mor River, an outpouring that is continually fed by Lake Enoria, Mor’s End stands at the conjunction of a number of trade routes... giving rise to one of it’s other nicknames, “The City of Coins”. For indeed, much coin does flow through the river town.  The nearby dwarven community of Kul Moren provides abundant iron ingots for trade downriver.   Fine clays used in the beautiful local pottery are highly sought after by craftsmen and nobles everywhere.  Rare sapphires collected from the Mor River are used as spell ingredients.  Finally, the unnaturally strong and beautiful fisher silk is produced only in Mor's End.

Mor’s End has much to entice anyone...  whether they be merchant, noble, mercenary, or adventurer.


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## wizardoftheplains (Mar 9, 2003)

Hi Jolly, you're not too late!

I believe Krug mentioned a couple of minister positions still open in the admin. thread.
And chime in on everything else.


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## wizardoftheplains (Mar 9, 2003)

Buttercup said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I'm going to post my corrections or suggested changes in bold, so they're easy to see.
> 
> ...




Buttercup, You're awesome!
I'll correct my post, then start the Government Thread.

I'll think a bit on the titles and will post the Gov. thread this Sunday.


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## Lalato (Mar 9, 2003)

Jolly, I'm with wizo'plains...  there's plenty of stuff to go around.  I would check the Admin thread to see what's going on there...

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43263

And as the wiz noted... just comment on what's here.  The more input, the better.  

--sam


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## Conaill (Mar 9, 2003)

Krug said:
			
		

> *Additionally, I think there should an area called the Squats. This is where the squatters, composed of the lower class, refugees and rural folk just arrived in town, reside.*




That would be on the downriver side of the city then. Considering rivers are used as open sewers in a medieval city, downriver would be the most undesirable location... I'll crosspost this to the geography thread.


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## Krug (Mar 9, 2003)

Thanks Buttercup! really sounds much cleaner.

Wardens works for me. What about others? 

And yeap downriver sounds appropiate.

I think we could define the neighbourhoods of the city a bit better. Where does the middle class reside? Where do the rich stay? Just a two-three sentence idea would suffice.


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## Knightfall (Mar 9, 2003)

Krug said:
			
		

> *Wardens works for me. What about others? *




I really like Warders but could also go for Consul or maybe even Envoy or Delegate.

Other suggestions: Proxy, catchpole, deputy, legate, aide.

Good evening by the way!  

Rob


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## Lalato (Mar 9, 2003)

I edited my Overview post a little more...  I just cleaned it up a little.  Let me know what you think.

--sam


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## Jolly Giant (Mar 9, 2003)

Conaill said:
			
		

> *
> 
> That would be on the downriver side of the city then. Considering rivers are used as open sewers in a medieval city, downriver would be the most undesirable location... I'll crosspost this to the geography thread. *




So what's upstream then? I mean, if I were a newcomer to a major city and there were open fields both upstream and downstream, I would NOT be squatting downstream!

To answer my own question, I guess the homes of the city's richest inhabitants would be upstream, where the river is relatively clean. And they'd probably take a dim view of any squatters setting up camp on their croquette fields...


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## Lalato (Mar 9, 2003)

Keep in mind that Cattle Ranching is one of the economic staples of the surrounding area.  I think perhaps instead of cows, it should be something a bit more exotic...  Perhaps Marco Polo Sheep.  These things are huge.  The males grow these beutiful curved horns.

Anyway...  I just got off track on my original idea for posting... 

Some wealthy ranchers and others will have plantations in the surrounding countryside.  In other words some of the rich won't even be living within the city walls.

I think the rich that live within the city walls will likely be one of the following...

--Nobles from other kingdoms that have made Mor's End their home...  reasons might be political or economic.  Lady Kelvin, in fact, was once from another kingdom, but is now the leader of Mor's End.

--Merchants that have decided to make this important trade hub their base of operations.

--Leading Craftsmen/Artisans that have made the move up by virtue of their talent or marketing skills.

--Scoundrels and Scallywags that have made a fast buck from nefarious dealings.

Let me know what you think...
--sam


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## Krug (Mar 9, 2003)

Lalato > That looks good to me.  I've no problems with it.


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## Lalato (Mar 9, 2003)

Krug... was that for the Overview or for what kind of rich people live in the city?

Begin gushing...

I just want to say that the amount of collaboration going on here is pretty amazing.  I'm really impressed by everyone's ideas, and it has thus far been a joy to be here.  

End gushing...

--sam


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## Knightfall (Mar 9, 2003)

lalato said:
			
		

> *I edited my Overview post a little more...  I just cleaned it up a little.  Let me know what you think.*




Better.  Although we really need to work on making those character names less campy, IMO.

How about this:

Erek Noahn = Erek Nohan or Erik Mohan.
Rusol Mor = Surol Mor or Russel Mor
Auv'dur Khost = Audvor Kost
Katze Kulpin = "Katze" Kulpin is fine with me

Also, I don't think Mr. Noah or his Grandmother will like us referring to her as a witch exerting her dark influence over him.

So are we saying that 'the sorceress' and the Lady Kelvin are different characters, now?  After all, if Noahn banished his grandmother then how did she come to control Mor's End.

Plus, is Rusol Mor still alive and living in the city?


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## Lalato (Mar 9, 2003)

I have no problem with changing the names... I just want to make sure the names refer back to the folks that make ENWorld...

As for the grandmother... she can be a sorceress, a priestess, whatever...

Hmmm...  that gives me an idea...

We could hint at this being tied to the thing that sleeps in the warrens below the city.  Say that thing is extremely powerful, evil, and smart.

One day Erek's grandmother is wandering through the hills north of the Lake River, as it was known at the time.  She spots what looks like a cairn.  For some reason she feels drawn to it.  

On one side of the cairn she notices a large boulder that could almost pass for a door.  She moves the boulder with her magic, and reveals an entrance and rough hewn stairs leading down...

Anyway...  I'm not feeling very creative today, but I'm thinking she finds some item tied to the evil thing.  The item has a very high personality and soon controls her.

Auvdor Kost was a powerful wizard that imprisoned the evil thing in the warrens below until he could figure out a way to be rid of it entirely.

The item forces her to take control of Erek and his men so that they get information about Auvdor Kost.

Erek finally breaks free of the enchantments, throws the item into the lake, and banishes his grandmother.

The rest of the story remains the same.  Let me know what you all think.

--sam


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## Knightfall (Mar 9, 2003)

lalato said:
			
		

> *I have no problem with changing the names... I just want to make sure the names refer back to the folks that make ENWorld...*




Alright then, I'm going to change the names to the following for now.

* Erek Nohan
* Russol Mor
* Audvor Kost
* "Katze" Kulpin 



			
				lalato said:
			
		

> *As for the grandmother... she can be a sorceress, a priestess, whatever...*




Cool, I vote for sorceress, more mythic, in my mind.



			
				lalato said:
			
		

> *Hmmm...  that gives me an idea...
> 
> We could hint at this being tied to the thing that sleeps in the warrens below the city.  Say that thing is extremely powerful, evil, and smart.
> 
> ...




Cool, I like that background.  Makes her evil actions explainable and doesn't force you to rewrite all you've done.  I'll work it into what we have in a bit.

Cheers!

KF72


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## Krug (Mar 9, 2003)

lalato said:
			
		

> *Krug... was that for the Overview or for what kind of rich people live in the city?
> 
> Begin gushing...
> 
> ...




Hi Lalato,
The rich people therad. The overview is ok. I'm not that hot about it. 

Yes the collaboration is going well. Perhaps we should also change .sigs to reflect linking to the thread.

Also Lalato, any more changes for the NPC thread? If not post to Rogue's Gallery so people can start contributing and we can start building the city. 

Knightfall> One last summary? I think leave out the overview for now.


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## Knightfall (Mar 9, 2003)

Krug said:
			
		

> *Knightfall> One last summary? I think leave out the overview for now. *




Alright, i've reworked the text quite a bit.  A lot of what was under Overview seemed more appropriate to the History section.

Krug, Lalato, take a look at the changes I've made and let me know if you want me to delete or change anything.

Cheers!

KF72

p.s.  I won't change anything else about the summary unless you ask me to.


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## Wolv0rine (Mar 9, 2003)

lalato said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Erek finally breaks free of the enchantments, throws the item into the lake, and banishes his grandmother.
> 
> ...




Well, I've been following this thread closely so far, and the part I can't fathom is why;
1) Eric's G'ma has been broken up into 2 seperate people, and
2) Why the first incarnation keep getting "Banished"?  

And, in this example, what a horrible guy this Erek is.  His grandmother becomes controlled by an evil item, and after getting rid of the item, he banishes her?

It occurs to me that Eric/Erek's Grandmother should be the same person.  If we took this Erek Nohan, and presumed he was a man of some substance (this would require changing him from a barbarian, but bear with me here just for a little bit), we might find someone such as this (and, possibly even based a little more closely on Mr. Noah, who is afterall a librarian, right?):

Erek Nohan, Sage and Chief Librarian of the great archives of the dukedom of Kelvin and son of the late Lord Kelvin.  News reaches Erek that a region has been discovered outside of the kingdom.  This region is untamed, but it is rumored that strange things are afoot there.  Also, he buys a small sample of an unusual form of silk that the explorers brought with them, using it wrap the beautiful (sapphires, was it?) that they found.  Erek notices immediately that this silk could be used to make a vastly superior paper (perhaps waterproof?), while his grandmother -- the Lady Kelvin -- notes that the cloth it would produce would be desired by every noble and rich merchant the lands over.  Almost as strong as the pull of these finds is the desire to discover what other secrets this land of Audvor Kost, must hold.  Erek pays the explorers for the location of this area, leaves the archives, and forms a settlement party (Erek's family, while not rich, are still well-respected and affluent enough to finance this).  The Lady Kelvin goes with her grandson, to provide him her wisdom and advice, and the band is underway.

(I'm blanking at the moment on the middle part here, but something about the Lady Kelvin's strong morals and advice helping shape the way Erek governed the fledgeling town of Mor's End)

After a time, Erek grows weary of the politics of overseeing the city that is springing up on the town he founded, and longs for the quiet and peace of the archives.  Erek namesd Russol Mor (the man who first discovered the Mor, and now Erek's right-hand man) as his successor, and returns to his books (returning now and again for both business, and personal reasons).  Russol Mor now oversees of Mor's End, although decisions of true weight are ultimately decided upon by Lady Kelvin.  Very few people have ever seen the Lady Kelvin, some wonder if she is only an invention, some wonder how she can still be alive.  Nearly everyone in Mor's End, however, feels a strong respect and affection towards her.  Even visitors begin feeling this after a short time in Mor's End.  Amazingly enough, noone has ever questioned this fact.

Okay, I know you've done so much work, and this pretty much flies int he face of everything you've done so far (while utilizing most of the EN World-based pieces you've created), but I just thought I'd throw it out there and let y'all see what you think.  I wrote it on the fly, here, so it might fall through in a place or two, if I missed anything while typing or whatnot.


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## Lalato (Mar 10, 2003)

Wolv0rine...  
Your take on things makes a lot of sense.  

You're right in pointing out that there are some inconsistencies in the current history.  I was going for a campy adventure sort of feel to the history by trying to include some of the wackiness that exists here on the messageboards.

Overall, I don't care how the history is explained.  As far as I'm concerned, the more theories the better.  That way we can choose either the best overall or choose the best elements from several.

To answer your questions...
1.  There seemed to be a consensus amongst the group that Eric's Grandma was not to be the leader of Mor's End.  That's why it seems like she has been split in two:  Erek, the barbarian's grandmother, and Lady Kelvin.  Erek's grandmother was an attempt (albeit weak) to reinject Eric's Grandma into the storyline.

2.  You're right about the banishment.  With the new overview I wrote, I should have thought more deeply about it.  Thanks for pointing that out.  

Please keep the ideas coming...
--sam


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## Lalato (Mar 10, 2003)

KF72...  your revised summary looks better every time.  Thanks for putting that stuff together.  

--sam


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## wizardoftheplains (Mar 10, 2003)

lalato said:
			
		

> *
> 
> We could hint at this being tied to the thing that sleeps in the warrens below the city.  Say that thing is extremely powerful, evil, and smart.
> 
> --sam *




Could the creature be primordial?  It was here before any other sentient creatures came into the area.  It has periodically wiped the area clean of lifeforms.  Hence, why the fertile, resource rich area is mostly uninhabited.

The creature is very powerful but rarely interacts with the upper world.  (In the version that I'll use on my players, the creature will be an enormous ooze with ties to the Potter's Guild.  A few of the higher-ups are worshippers of this creature.  Rituals worshiping the ooze involve the use some of the rarer clays found in the region.  Wha-ha-ha-ha.  The cult's leader is, of course, a doppleganger/sorcerer.)

gary


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## Knightfall (Mar 10, 2003)

lalato said:
			
		

> *2.  You're right about the banishment.  With the new overview I wrote, I should have thought more deeply about it.  Thanks for pointing that out.
> *




You know, I was wondering about that when I was consolidating everything into the history section.  I left it with her being banished because, while Erek broke free of the artifact's enchantment, she didn't.  Knowing she wasn't to blame, Erek's only choice was banishment.



			
				lalato said:
			
		

> *KF72... your revised summary looks better every time. Thanks for putting that stuff together.
> *




Ya velcome!  Again! 

Later,

KF72


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## Lalato (Mar 10, 2003)

*Fauna of Enheim...*

I was thinking about the cattle ranchers... and I wanted to make the cattle something a bit exotic.  I had been researching exotic mountain animals for another project when I cam across this link...

http://www.karakol.su/animals_of_kyrgyzstan.htm

I think Marco Polo Sheep, also known as Argali, would work well for this.  The male sheep have very impressive horns that could yield yet another cottage industry for Mor's End...

Here's an image of Marco Polo Sheep... 
http://members.tripod.com/EAPWS/ES_Argali.html

Just for info...  Marco Polo Sheep can produce milk, wool, and meat.  

--sam


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## Lalato (Mar 10, 2003)

I've been looking at the sheer numbers it would take to support a city this size using Medieval Demographics Made Easy...

http://www.rpglibrary.org/utils/meddemog/

Anyway...  Even if the city's food supplies are supplemented by caravans, it looks like we need at least some farm land along with the cattle.  

Perhaps there are a couple of farming communities on the other side of the lake?

Right now the home grown food is:
Cattle and Fish

We will likely need some grain and vegetables grown locally somewhere...

The lake might also yield some kelp-like plant that when stewed is healthy and nutritious like spinach...

Anyone out there have ideas on this?
--sam


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## Krug (Mar 10, 2003)

*Re: Fauna of Enheim...*



			
				lalato said:
			
		

> *I was thinking about the cattle ranchers... and I wanted to make the cattle something a bit exotic.  I had been researching exotic mountain animals for another project when I cam across this link...
> 
> http://www.karakol.su/animals_of_kyrgyzstan.htm
> 
> ...




Hmm... intriguing. I'd say go for it. Perhaps this trade isn't done within the city, but in the vicinity, and villagers come to Mor's End to trade and sell off their product.

And yes, there'd definitely need to be farmland. Otherwise it'd be too easily to starve out the city.


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## Conaill (Mar 10, 2003)

Grumble, grumble...

Now that I finally have gotten my sourcebooks in the same location (I.e. the "Magical Medieavl Society" and my DMG), it seems like there may be some errors in MMS's demography tables. I asked for more info on Expeditious Retreat's bullitin boards, but meanwhile here's what I came up with using the DMG's demographics rule on pages 139-140

The highest level NPC of any give class is given by dX + community modifier, where the community modifier for "Small City" is equal to "+6 (roll twice)".

For example, for Rogues, the highest level NPC would be given by "1d8 +6 (roll twice)". In other words, there are two Rogues of levels Rog7-14. For example, one Rog9 and one Rog12.

The number of lower-level NPC's of that class is given by the following rule: "if the highest-level character is 2nd level or above, assume that for each such character there are two of half that level." For example, for our Rog12 there would be two Rog6, four Rog3, and so on. If you get into fractional levels things get a little ambiguous, but the example in the DMG seems to indicate that you round up at .5, and keep using the fractions for the next levels. In total, starting with the Rog9 and Rog12 as highest-level Rogues, we get:

1 x Rog 12
1 x Rog9
2 x Rog6
2 x Rog5 (4.5 rounded up)
4 x Rog3
4 x Rog2 (2.25 rounded down) + 8 x Rog2 (1.5 rounded up)
8 x Rog1 (1.125 rounded down) + 16 Rog1 (.75 rounded up)

Here are the numbers for the other classes (I picked some reasonable values for the die rolls, e.g. 2 and 5 on "1d6 roll twice"):

Paladin, Ranger (1d3+6, roll twice):
1x9, 1x7, 2x5, 2x4, 8x2, 16x1

Aristocrat, Barbarian, Monk, Sorceror, Wizard (1d4+6, twice):
1x9, 1x8, 2x5, 2x4, 8x2, 16x1

Bard, Cleric, Druid, Adept (1d6+6, twice):
1x11, 1x8, 2x6, 2x4, 4x3, 4x2, 16x1

Fighter, Rogue, Warrior (1d8+6 or 2d4+6, twice):
1x12, 1x9, 2x6, 2x5, 4x3, 12x2, 24x1

Expert (3d4+6, twice):
1x15, 1x12, 2x8, 2x6, 4x4, 4x3, 16x2, 32x1

Commoner (4d4+6, twice):
1x18, 1x14, 2x9, 2x7, 4x5, 4x4, 16x2, 32x1

(The rest of the population is filled up with 91% Com1, 5% War1, 3% Exp1, 0.5% Ari1 and 0.5% Adp1.)

The highest level you  can roll for any PC class is 14 (on 1d8+6), so I would suggest we make Lady Kelvin a 14th level NPC.

These numbers also give us guidelines for the "Government" thread. For example, the head of the Mages Guild will be a 9th level Wizard or Sorceror, and the city only has a total of 30 Wizards and 30 Sorcerors (and most of those are lvl 1!) On the other hand, the head of the Thieves Guild is likely to be a 12th level Rogue, and there are a total of 48 Rogues in the city.

With respect to the NPC thread, we probably want to restrict "free for all" submission to a certain level, and have an actual contest for the highest-level ones (probably in cooperation with the Goverment thread). I think lvl 5 max is a reasonable limit for the NPC thread.

[Edit: cross-posted to NPC and goverment thread]


----------



## Conaill (Mar 10, 2003)

PS: Before we put anything into stone, we need to be certain that we are all comfortable with this size of city. Personally, I would prefer Mor's End to be a Metropolis or at least a Large City (12,000-25,000). That would allow us to have some fairly high-level NPC's (up to lvl 17), which makes the city scaleable for higher-level adventures as well. Besides, it sounds like the Geography thread would like to have a larger city as well.

This is pretty much our LAST CHANCE to change something as fundamental as this. I can easily recalculate the numbers I gave above, and I assume Buttercup could red her numbers for the different types of businesses as well. But once we start weaving these statistics into the fabric of the city, it'll be too late to reverse any of this!


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## The Grey Dwarf (Mar 10, 2003)

lalato said:
			
		

> *I've been looking at the sheer numbers it would take to support a city this size using Medieval Demographics Made Easy...
> http://www.rpglibrary.org/utils/meddemog/
> Anyway...  Even if the city's food supplies are supplemented by caravans, it looks like we need at least some farm land along with the cattle.
> --sam *



On the map, there's a good patch of farmland to the north, between the city and the hills. (Ok, maybe I should work on that symbol  )


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## Steverooo (Mar 10, 2003)

*The Dweller Below...*

I put forth the name "Shubboth", reminiscent of both HPL's Shoggoth and Shub Niggurath.  No details, just a name...  (I'm thinking Ooze with a Fiendish Template, though)


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## Lalato (Mar 10, 2003)

I don't mind if the city is larger.  I think a city of about 15,000 is definitely workable... and if we're going to make that change... now is the time to do it.

Regarding food for a city of 15,000

If we were to use the numbers from Medieval Demographics Made Easy...  Enheim would have to have approximately 333 villages with about 150,000 residents to support the 15,000 people in the city of Mor's End.

Without a doubt, the food supply will have to be magically aided so we can limit the number of people living in Enheim.  With magic, I think we can definitely decrease the number of villagers significantly...

--sam


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## Conaill (Mar 10, 2003)

lalato said:
			
		

> *If we were to use the numbers from Medieval Demographics Made Easy...  Enheim would have to have approximately 333 villages with about 150,000 residents to support the 15,000 people in the city of Mor's End.*




I think that assumes that the city is supported purely by agriculture. Mor's End could get a lot of its food from the lake, plus the rest through trade (so those 333 villages don't have to be within Enheim!)

For a primary staple, we can say that there is a nutritious but bland seaweed growing in the lake. Much more efficient source of food than fishing alone...


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## Wolv0rine (Mar 10, 2003)

*Re: Re: Fauna of Enheim...*



			
				Krug said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Hmm... intriguing. I'd say go for it. Perhaps this trade isn't done within the city, but in the vicinity, and villagers come to Mor's End to trade and sell off their product.
> 
> And yes, there'd definitely need to be farmland. Otherwise it'd be too easily to starve out the city. *




Perhaps just outside of the city, along the major roads, there is an area where smaller traders (farmers, shephards, single craftsmen, etc) ply their wares in some informal 'market row' or something.  Just from these sheep you could have people selling meat, raw wool, finshed bolts of cloth, clothing made of it, raw horn, carved horn art, weapon handles carved of it, weapons crafted entirely OF it, maybe even some forms of armor.  I'm sure *someone* will try to sell horn-powder aphrodisiacs.


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## Lalato (Mar 10, 2003)

> For a primary staple, we can say that there is a nutritious but bland seaweed growing in the lake. Much more efficient source of food than fishing alone...




Yes... I noted that in another thread...  

Even so, the population of Enheim is still large compared to Mor's End.  I think with cattle, fish, farming, and kelp...  Enheim still has a population of at least 30,000.  

I think that's reasonable... especially if the farming is magically aided.  Magically aided farming could provide some interesting plot hooks.

--sam


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## Knightfall (Mar 10, 2003)

*Summerized Ideas!  Moved from Page Four!*

_All this is just member suggestions._

*EN World City Project*

*Region:* Enheim *

*City Name:* Mor's End , The City of Crafts and Coins *

*Ruler:* The Lady Kelvin, Matriarch of Mor's End (N female human Ari4/Rog6/Sor6). *

*Other Noteable Characters:* Castellan Althea Stangus (LN female human Ari4/Ftr6); Russol Mor (N male human Rog6/Ftr7).

*Power Groups/Guilds:* City Warders, Glazers' Guild, Glittering Brotherhood, Guild of Guards, Mages' Guild, Merchants' Guild, Silkers Circle, Thieves' Guild, Workers' Senate.

*Capital:* Mor's End *

*Major Towns:* Lalaton (500) , Mor's End (10,200). *

*Resources:* Cattle/sheep, clay/pottery, dairy, grain, iron, pork, sapphires, silk **, swamp cucumbers/pickles, wool. *

*Coinage:* Shield (pp), hammer (gp), sword (ep), dagger (sp),  knife (cp).

*Population:* 10,200 (small city): Integrated - 40% human, 20% dwarf, 13% gnome, 8% humanoid, 6% halfling, 6% elf, 4% half-orc, 2% monstrous, 1% half-elf. *

*Languages:* Common, Dwarven, Gnome, Halfling, Elven, Orc, Aquan.

*Alignments:* LN, NG, N, CG, CN

*Religions:* The city has a collection of small local gods.

*Allies:* Kul Moren (pop. 800) *, sand barbarian traders.

*Enemies:* Orcs, goblins, yak folk.

*Overview:* Mor's End is a self-sufficient city, known far and wide for it’s abundance of natural resources and large artisan community.  It is a melting pot of races, idealogies, and professions from all over the known world.  Also known as the City of Crafts by some, and the City of Coins by others.  It is an independent city-state in the region known as Enheim.

Built on the banks of the Mor River, an outpouring that is continually fed by Lake Enoria, Mor’s End stands at the conjunction of a number of trade routes, giving rise to one of it’s other nicknames, “The City of Coins”.  For indeed, much coin does flow through the river town. The nearby dwarven community of Kul Moren provides abundant iron ingots for trade downriver.  Fine clays used in the beautiful local pottery are highly sought after by craftsmen and nobles everywhere.  Rare sapphires collected from the Mor River are used as spell ingredients.  Finally, the unnaturally strong and beautiful fisher silk is produced only in Mor's End.

Mor’s End has much to entice anyone, whether they be merchant, noble, mercenary, or adventurer.

*Geography:* _Currently being reworked by The Grey Dwarf_

*Government:* The leader of the city is a mysterious female matriarch, hardly ever seen in public. Lady Kelvin is a beleagured leader trying to keep a hold on her independent city-state. The city's trade and position is much admired; located in a frontier land her city acts as an outpost serving several civilized settlements. Lady Kelvin moves around the city unseen. The daily duties of running the city are done by Castellan Stangus, and a group of officials known as the City Warders, who post the laws, settle disagreements, and keep the somewhat wild city going.

*History:* In ages past, dwarves discovered rich deposits of ore in the  Mountains of Kul Moren, far from the settled lands to the north, or the strange sand barbarians of the south. Fortunately, a trickle of trade between these far distant cultures was beginning and the common route passed less than a day's hike from the new dwarven mines.  The dwarves prospered from this trickle of trade for centuries before humans came to the region, now known as Enheim

Erek Nohan, the infamous barbarian explorer, was the first human to lay claim to the area. With the help of his grandmother, a sorceress of great power, he was able to take control over the caravan routes that used Lake Enoria as a resting point.

One day the sorceress spots a cairn while wandering through the hills north of the Wanderers' River, as it was known at the time.  For some reason she felt drawn to it.  To one side of the cairn she notices a large boulder that is hiding an entrance.  Curious, she moves the boulder with her magic to reveal the entrance and rough hewn stairs leading down.

Entering the cairn , she comes across a powerful, evil artifact with a insanely powerful personality.  A battle of wills ensues but the ancient artifact is too powerful for her mind and soon dominates her.  The artifact forces her to take control of Erek and his men, so that they get information about Auvdor Kost, a powerful wizard that originally sealed the evil artifact underground.

No longer interested in treasure from the caravans, she forces her grandson and his men to gather all available information on Kost.  With the powerful artifact's enhanced magic, the sorceress divined that the old wizard was spying on the region through the very caravans her grandson was raiding.  Kost was out to destroy the sorceress for uncovering the artifact.

Due to the artifact's influence, Nohan's followers raid caravan after caravan, killing all except those that could provide information on Kost.  These spies were allowed to return to Kost as a warning that the sorceress was ready for anything he might have planned.

In a moment of strength of will Nohan breaks free of the enchantments the artifact had placed on him.  However, he couldn't bare to kill his grandmother, who was still under the artifacts power, so he banished her instead.  She was never heard from again, though many believe she went on to control a city (or citadel (?)) south of the swamp.

Erek Nohan, free of the artifacts influence, splits the region between his two best men: Russol Mor and "Katze" Kulpin.  Katze continued raiding caravans crossing through the region, while Mor decided that there was more money in trading than in raiding.  He built a settlement on the river.  In later years, Katze, who was known as the Pirate of the Lake, often raided the small boats carrying the precious fisher-silk. 

(And what of Erek Nohan?  No one knows for sure, but some say he completely abandon his barbarous ways and eventually became a wizard and a loremaster.)

Not long after, Erek and his followers discovered beds of clay of unusual purity and color on the banks of the Mor River and set up a small manufacturing hamlet where the river intersected this trade route. The dwarves of Kul Moren soon introduced themselves, and with their usual dwarven interest in all things manufactured, suggested the use of some mineral byproducts (which they had previously thought of as waste) as glazes for the fine clay wares being produced. The results were unusually beautiful and durable, and were readily sold to the traders who were passing through with increasing frequency.

Sadly, as is the way of the frontier, these lands were not empty. Bands of marauding orcs, worg riding goblins and even a few of the yak folk harried the fledgling town, and nearly destroyed it more than once. The dwarves, who had begun to see the community as essential to their continued economic health, hired some mercenaries, and helped to build a palisade.

*Conflicts and Intrigues:* The Merchants Guild has a lot of power given this is a trade city.  They manuever for power against the Glittering Brotherhood, the local guild that holds the secret to cutting the gems just right to bring out their magical properties, often used as spell components.

- The city is extremely rich in natural resources which makes it an important caravan stop.  Although it's far away from most other civilization, many people go out of there way to visit Mor's End. Coin attracts all sorts people, good and bad, thieves and heroes, men and mice.

- Some wonder why such an area was not already teaming with civilization when the founder of Mor’s End first topped the nearby hills and set eyes upon the plains below. The answer, say the locals, lies buried somewhere in the ancient warrens rumored to be beneath the city. Perhaps time will tell if the rumors are true.

- Catoblepas hunting in the marsh is both dangerous and popular amongst the cities nobility/upper class.  These nobles are members of cult of God of Pain and Suffering. They hunt the dangerous creatures in order to risk pain in the name of their God. While not a secret society, they do tend to be shunned at noble gatherings due to their many scars and garrish outfits.

- A strange cult is rumored to have formed that worships the Lady Kelvin as a quasi-deity.  No one is sure if these cultist are serious or simply mad.  The city's officials have not commented on the issue.  Rumors are spreading like wildfire.

Other Ideas/DM Tidbits: A magical riverboat that makes its way up and down the river. Other boats tend to be flat-bottom and use polers to move from one bank to the other, ferrying people, goods and sometimes contraband.

* Semi-finalized
** The city forbids the sale of fish-silk to outside sources so that they have a monopoly on giant silk fish fabric.  Thus, the city heavily patrols the lake to prevent silk fish theft. (But of course, it's hard to make an open body of water 100% secure.)


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## Knightfall (Mar 10, 2003)

Conaill said:
			
		

> *PS: Before we put anything into stone, we need to be certain that we are all comfortable with this size of city. Personally, I would prefer Mor's End to be a Metropolis or at least a Large City (12,000-25,000). That would allow us to have some fairly high-level NPC's (up to lvl 17), which makes the city scaleable for higher-level adventures as well. Besides, it sounds like the Geography thread would like to have a larger city as well.
> 
> This is pretty much our LAST CHANCE to change something as fundamental as this. I can easily recalculate the numbers I gave above, and I assume Buttercup could red her numbers for the different types of businesses as well. But once we start weaving these statistics into the fabric of the city, it'll be too late to reverse any of this! *




While it might be an idea to make the city larger, I don't really see the need.  So it's not a metropolis, no big deal.  And if you want higher level adventurers then I suggest you could always break the demographics rules and simply increase the highest level NPCs in the city.

After all, changing the cities size will mean that Buttercup will have to rework her Craft & Trade Submissions thread.

Later,

Rob


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## wizardoftheplains (Mar 11, 2003)

*Re: Summerized Ideas!  Moved from Page Four!*

Knightfall,
I've adjusted my intro in the govt thread from earlier comments added by Buttercup.  I took out the feudal reference.
See below.  You might want to strip in the appropriate corrections.  Your summary is such a good reference so we don't become disjointed.  As decisions are made on things it could reflect the most recent writeup.

The Leader is a mysterious female matriarch, hardly ever seen in public. Lady Kelvin is a beleagured leader trying to keep a hold on her independent city-state. The city's trade and position is much admired; located in a frontier land her city acts as an outpost serving several civilized settlements. Lady Kelvin moves around the city unseen. The daily duties of running the city are done by Castellan Stangus, and a group of officials known as the City Warders, who post the laws, settle disagreements, and keep the somewhat wild city going.

The Castellan (LN male human Ari4/Ftr6), known as Althea Stangus.

gary


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## Knightfall (Mar 11, 2003)

Thanks for the heads up, Wiz.  I've modified that section in my summary.

Later,

Kf72


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## Knightfall (Mar 12, 2003)

bump


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## Ruavel (Mar 13, 2003)

gotta keep this one near the top too...


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## Knightfall (Mar 13, 2003)

Major changes under resources section as per the following.

*Resources:* Cattle/sheep, clay/pottery, dairy, grain, iron, pork, sapphires, silk **, swamp cucumbers/pickles, wool. *

And if your not sure where the swamp cucumber idea came from then read my other post here:  http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=761244#post761244


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## Krug (Mar 13, 2003)

Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> *Major changes under resources section as per the following.
> 
> Resources: Cattle/sheep, clay/pottery, dairy, grain, iron, pork, sapphires, silk **, swamp cucumbers/pickles, wool. *
> 
> And if your not sure where the swamp cucumber idea came from then read my other post here:  http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=761244#post761244 *




Turn your back for a moment and suddenly the town becomes a major exporter of pickles... what next? mayonaisse?


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## Knightfall (Mar 13, 2003)

Krug said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Turn your back for a moment and suddenly the town becomes a major exporter of pickles... what next? mayonaisse?  *




I love the idea cuz it's kind of twisted.  But if you really hate it then I'll take it out.


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## David Argall (Mar 14, 2003)

*rural-urban*

In ancient times, it generally took a rural population of about 10x the urban in order to feed the city population.  

   So the total population of the area should run around 100,000.


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## Krug (Mar 14, 2003)

Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I love the idea cuz it's kind of twisted.  But if you really hate it then I'll take it out. *




I'm fine with it. Halfling and gnome pickle wars anybody?


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## Lalato (Mar 14, 2003)

*Re: rural-urban*



			
				David Argall said:
			
		

> *In ancient times, it generally took a rural population of about 10x the urban in order to feed the city population.
> 
> So the total population of the area should run around 100,000. *




I wholeheartedly agree...  the problem right now is that the city was here before the rural population could take root.  Think of Mor's End as a boom town in the frontier.  A large town pops up overnight and no one is prepared to support it.  That's why we're not seeing a typical rural population.  

I think, eventually, the populations will normalize.  Perhaps in another 150 years it will be a lot closer to true medieval demographics.

If it weren't for the abundant resources and the caravans, Mor's End wouldn't have survived.

--sam


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## Krug (Mar 14, 2003)

A review of Stonebridge, a city book from Mongoose.
http://www.gameplaynews.com/reviews.php?article_id=583

A good reference to figure out what else we need.


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## Lalato (Mar 14, 2003)

This is cross posted from the Government thread...  This is currently the most appropriate thread to discuss history in... so I figured I would post it here.  It's very rough... and it still needs to be fleshed out.

--sam




> > Well I think that might assume too much. Remember it's a plug and play city. A city of 10,000 with a rural population of 100k is 'reaching' by too much. That would have a large influence of the army/militia numbers and I'm not really for that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Krug (Mar 14, 2003)

Thanks Lalato.

The silk fish might feed on the seaweed. Both are native and exclusive to the region? 

I think there should be a few cataclysmic events in the history. A war which almost bought the city to its knees. Who what why when? Perhaps the minister of military affairs might want to take up the challenge...


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## Lalato (Mar 14, 2003)

Perhaps the region is prone to earthquakes, tornadoes or a massive annual rainy season...  and the city has been rebuilt a few times...

hmmm....  maybe the weather/earthquakes are tied to the thing in the warrens

Oh yeah... and there is that one time a few thousand humanoids organized and nearly destroyed the city.

and lets not forget the times a few errant catoblepas have decimated the Squats.


--sam


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## Conaill (Mar 14, 2003)

Possibly related question: Why doesn't the city grow towards the lake more? All the coastal medieval city maps I've seen, the city really becomes spread out against the coast because much of the empahsis is on fishing and the sea.

Perhaps the silk jellyfish can use their tentacles to catch prey off the shore? That would probably dissuade people from living right along the coast, but it would make harvesting more dangerous.

And why isn't there a bigger population on the "big island" between the two branches of the river? An earlier suggestion I had was that that's where the special clay is being mined. But it could also be some sort of "radioactive" area: leftover magical energy from an ancient battle? Maybe that's what made the clay special in the first place? 

(crossposetd to Geography)


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## Krug (Mar 14, 2003)

Conalli,
I agree. The city should sprawl out and spread itself towards the coast.

So far we've been talking about the city and its walls. Perhaps the city extends beyond those walls? So not everything need be within the walls of Mor's End. Also within those walls might be a keep where the Castellan, the Lady and the Wardens reside.


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## Conaill (Mar 15, 2003)

Krug: I've already drawn the Squats as extending beyond the city wall. Plus of course we have the Outland Rangers, and those White Storm guys (or are those one and the same?)

As for a keep for the Lady, Castellan, etc: check the map in Geography. The central island has a big citadel on it. Grew around the toll gate on the bridges crossing the river.


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## David Argall (Mar 15, 2003)

*food supply*

"the problem right now is that the city was here before the rural population could take root. Think of Mor's End as a boom town in the frontier. A large town pops up overnight and no one is prepared to support it. That's why we're not seeing a typical rural population. 
I think, eventually, the populations will normalize. Perhaps in another 150 years it will be a lot closer to true medieval demographics."

   Cart before the horse here.  Cities need food, lots of food, which means they don't exist far from lots of rural folk who produce that food.  The balance of a boom town is normally achieved within 1.5 years, not centuries.  

   Our choices thus are 
   a rural population around 100,000   [the standard]
   A very productive agriculture system  [pushing things a mite]
   heavy imports of food. [Food is a bulk item, and routinely spoils.  Add in the inefficiencies of ancient transportation and the city is not likely to get the majority of its needs this way.  Still, we may be able to push a good bit of the rural population off the map this way.]


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## Lalato (Mar 15, 2003)

> a rural population around 100,000 [the standard]
> A very productive agriculture system [pushing things a mite]
> heavy imports of food. [Food is a bulk item, and routinely spoils. Add in the inefficiencies of ancient transportation and the city is not likely to get the majority of its needs this way. Still, we may be able to push a good bit of the rural population off the map this way.]




David, good points...  

I was thinking we could have magically aided farming in the area... especially in the farmlands north of the city...  but also throughout the region...  part of paying taxes to the city for protection includes a little magical assistance with farming.

As for heavy imports of food...  A list of foods that don't easily spoil might be in order...
Honey
Nuts
Dried Meats
Grains
Pickled Vegetables (never as good as swamp pickles, but far cheaper)
Mushrooms and other Fungi (not sure about these)
Dried Fruits

Food importation might also be magically aided...  especially if it's a staple like grains.

--sam

p.s. the above is simply conjecture... feel free to tear it apart and put it back together.


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## jdavis (Mar 15, 2003)

I would assume that fishing would be one of the major food sources here, living on a huge lake normally would mean lots of fishing. They would have to be able to fish without accidently netting and killing large amounts of the silk fish but it seems that if they were not doing a lot of regular fishing then they would of never stumbled onto the silk fish to start with. A effecient fishing system could be done by people who live within the walls and that could supply a portion of the food for the town.


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## Lalato (Mar 15, 2003)

I agree with the fishing...  currently we have the following for local food supplies...

Meats:
Argali Sheep (abundant, but used for many purposes besides meat)
Fish (most abundant meat source...  but could be prone to overfishing)
Farm Animals: cows, pigs, goats, chickens (not so abundant, but available)

Veggies:
Lake Kelp (very abundant)
Local Grains (abundant, but probably not enough to feed region)
Local Vegetables and Fruits (probably not enough to feed region)
Swamp Pickles (rare and expensive)

All of that is probably not enough to feed the region with its current population without some magical assistance or caravan trade...

Perhaps food shortages happen from time to time, despite the region's best efforts.  That's one of the reasons why the city isn't any bigger.

One thing the city might do is start recruiting farmers from other countries to live in Enheim...  The enticement is 5 acres and a mule...  

--sam


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## yragthecareful (Mar 17, 2003)

Hi, I've posted this gif in the govt. affairs thread also.  I'm trying to layout the political structure of Mor's End.  Please review and comment so that I can make the appropriate changes.
Thank you!
yragthecareful
aka.  wizardoftheplains.


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## jgbrowning (Mar 18, 2003)

*Re: food supply*



			
				David Argall said:
			
		

> *   Cart before the horse here.  Cities need food, lots of food, which means they don't exist far from lots of rural folk who produce that food.  The balance of a boom town is normally achieved within 1.5 years, not centuries.
> 
> Our choices thus are
> a rural population around 100,000   [the standard]
> ...




One thing that would help isolate the city a bit would be to have the majority of the rural population supporting the city spread out along the banks of the lake. This would allow boating of food (vastly superior to land transit).

Just my .002$

joe b.


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## Lalato (Mar 18, 2003)

wizo'plains...
That's really cool.  

I'm still not a fan of the golem thing.  In fact, I think that it is curiously "high magic" compared to the rest of the city.  Therefore, I'm still not so sure about the Seven Houses.  Originally, the city was built by humans and dwarves from Kul Moren.  There just weren't that many halflings and gnomes... so how exactly did such a minority become so prominent as to get control of golems?

If we're talking about "noble" houses within the city they would most likely come from the following groups...

1.  Descendents of the early inhabitants.
2.  Descendents of the local sheep herders
3.  Descendents of Kul Moren dwarves
4.  Foreign nobility that moved to the city
5.  Merchants that made it rich and act like nobility

Don't get me wrong... I love gnomes and halflings, and I think the golem thing is rather imaginative, but I'm not sure it fits in Mor's End.

The section of town called The Warrens should be called something else...  The Maze, The Knot, The Tangle...  I like The Tangle, but I'm sure the Geography folks will name the sections of town soon enough.  I'm just trying to avoid confusion between The Warrens and the underground warrens.

I'm working on some history for you guys to look over while I'm offline.  I'll post as soon as I've cleaned it up a little.

--sam


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## Lalato (Mar 18, 2003)

> One thing that would help isolate the city a bit would be to have the majority of the rural population supporting the city spread out along the banks of the lake. This would allow boating of food (vastly superior to land transit).




That's a great idea.  It doesn't necessarily obviate the need for a larger population, but a good idea nonetheless.  

--sam


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## Lalato (Mar 18, 2003)

*History of Mor's End...*

This is the roughest of rough drafts...



> History:
> Founding...
> In ages past, dwarves discovered rich deposits of iron ore in the Mountains of Kul Moren, far from the settled lands to the north, or the strange sand barbarians of the south. Fortunately, a trickle of trade between these far distant cultures was beginning and the common route passed less than a day's hike from the new dwarven mines. The dwarves prospered from this trickle of trade for centuries before humans came to the region now known as Enheim.
> 
> ...




What I'm thinking is that Lady Kelvin is an hereditary title that goes down to the descendents of Russol Mor and the original Lady Kelvin.  This was initially out of necessity because Mor and Kelvin only had female children...  eventually it became traditional to appoint the eldest daughter.  There might have even been a male leader of Mor's End, but in order to keep with tradition, even he maintained the title of Lady Kelvin... not Lord Kelvin.

As with all my stuff... please feel free to tear it apart and put it back together.  I'll contintue working on history while offline, but I would appreciate your feedback to make sure that I'm on the right track.  

--sam


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## Lalato (Mar 20, 2003)

Looks like I must have scared everyone with my last post.  I'm going to take that as guarded approval for now.  I'll post some more history a little later.

--sam


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## Krug (Mar 20, 2003)

We're still here. just digesting.


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## Lalato (Mar 20, 2003)

That's cool...  
--sam


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## Conaill (Mar 20, 2003)

lalato: ix-nay on the male Lady Kelvin idea 

I also think the sapphires should probably come into play sooner than the special clay and glazes. If there is some special knowledge or expertise (recipe?) is required for the latter, it would take some time to develop this.

Sapphires in the riverbed could be very easy to discover, giving a second incentive (after the trading post / river crossing) for founding a city on this spot. Later an enterprising potter makes the link with the gemstone-laden local clay, and develops the special glazes.

I'm not terribly fond of the high-powered background with the artifact, the wizard etc. Seems entirely superfluous, and it confuses the whole Erek's grandmother / Nonna Deleric issue.

Other than that, great job!


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## Lalato (Mar 20, 2003)

Thanks Conaill...

I can live without a male Lady Kelvin... I was just thinking it might be interesting to have it in the history.  Can we agree, however, that "Lady Kelvin" is an hereditary title passed on to Russol Mor's female children?

In my original history I had sapphires first, but I changed it.  I can definitely make them first again.  That's not a problem at all.

As for the Erek Nohan saga...  I agree that it's fairly campy...  It has a quite few inside jokes playing through it...

1.  Erek's Grandmother has been an inside joke for us from the outset.  Erek's Grandmother is no longer in any way connected to Lady Kelvin.  When we first came up with Lady Kelvin we suggested that she might be somehow tied to Erek's Grandmother, but I believe that association was dropped.  The Lady Kelvin's name, Nonna Deleric (which means Eric's Grandmother in Italian), is a vestage of that connection.

2.  Erek Nohan is a direct reference to Eric Noah.  This reference is included since he put the EN in EN World.

3.  the wizard, Auvdor Kost...  if you say it real fast it sounds like the Wizard of the Coast...  thus the need to find information regarding the wizard.  It was the reason why EN World began.

4.  Russol Mor is a direct reference to Morrus.  This reference is included since he is the the main man at EN World.

5.  Katze Kulpin is a direct reference to Pirate Cat/Kevin Kulp.  An admin of EN World.  Katze is Cat in German...  sorry, I couldn't resist.

6.  The name Lady Kelvin is a reference to all the Entropy names that were in the city naming poll.  It refers back to Lord Kelvin who is the scientific genius who described this process.

I've been trying to weave a few inside jokes and references into the history.  Unfortunately, doing so makes it seem a bit campy and corny.  If everyone prefers that the city have a less over the top history... let me know.  

If you would like to read an alternate history...  check page 4 of this thread and search for Wolv0rine.  He had a nice alternate history based on the same characters.

--sam


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## Conaill (Mar 20, 2003)

Oh, I get all the references, and I like them a lot. The names are great. It's just that we seem to have one too many grandmothers right now.

Also, plot-wise you could leave out the entire artifact episode without harming Mor's End's history whatsoever. It just feels tacked on. I'd say cut it out.


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## David Argall (Mar 20, 2003)

*Lady Kelvin*

"Can we agree, however, that "Lady Kelvin" is an hereditary title passed on to Russol Mor's female children?"

    Probably not.  While individual females have risen to power in virtually every culture, that power is not passed on to another female.  It generally goes to her son or grandson.  So Russol Mor's female children and grandchildren would be powerful or powerless depending on who they married, not based on their ancestry.  [by the way, Mor may well have over 1000 female descendants, and probably has a good number of destitute among them]

    The more common pattern of a female in power in ancient societies is that she married the ruler and then took over the power, quite possibly because he was deemed incompetent or he died and left her in charge of the child ruler.  In these cases, it required a strong personality on the woman's part to maintain a grip on the power.  

    This same pattern fits nicely with our picture of Lady Kelvin.  She is a strong dominant figure with a will to power.  Much better for our picture that she worked her way to power than that she was born into the position.


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## Wolv0rine (Mar 20, 2003)

*So...  what do y'all think?*

I don't know if this is the right topic/forum to make this offering, but I was sketching and came out with this pic for the Barbarian, Erek Nohan:






Using this as reference (I hope terribly he doesn't mind):






I added some manly beard-stubble (recalling that Eric once said he wished he could grow a beard).  It's my first attempt at even a lose "portrait" of someone in nearly a decade.


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## Lalato (Mar 20, 2003)

Wolv0rine...  That's an awesome picture.  Very cool!!!

Conaill...  I see your point.  An artifact is quite powerful.  There is probably a better way to describe what happens.  Did you get a chance to read Wolv0rine's version of history from page 4?  In the meantime... I'll work on some changes.  

Regarding Erek's Grandma and Nonna Deleric...  Remember that these two folks are separated by a few hundred years.  One thing I was thinking about was... what if Erek's Grandma is the cause of the early humanoid raids into Mor's End?  What if she is directing the raids from her lair in the swamps?  I thought it might be an interesting plot hook.

David Argall...  excellent point.  I know that historically speaking matriarchal societies are few and far between.  I was just thinking it might be interesting if Mor's End evolved into such a society.  One of the interesting things about modern D&D is the strong departure it takes from traditional gender roles.  The rulebooks, themselves, encourage strong female players by using female identifiers as opposed to the traditional male identifiers.  

Anyway...  either way is fine with me.  This is a collaborative effort... we can make it whatever we want.  

Thanks for the comments thus far... keep them coming.
--sam


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## Conaill (Mar 20, 2003)

How about this...

When Erek Nohan arrived in the area, he was accompanied by his grandmother Lady Kelvin, a sweet elderly lady with a habit of chiding him for his use of swear words but a powerful sorceress in her own right.

[skip to splitting up the region between Mor and Kulpin]

Mor founded Mor's End, but left the day-to-day running of the city in the surprisingly capable hands of Lady Kelvin. Erek Nohan founded the library in Mor's End, searching for knowledge about it's ancient past. Nobody knows for sure what became of him, but some say his ghost still roams the stacks. Others say he descended in the Warren and met a gristly fate there.

The first Lady Kelvin died several years later under mysterious circumstances. Around the same time the now aging Mor acquired a new mistress, who soon proved to be a capable admistrator. Before his death, Mor appointed her as head of the city, carrying the "Lady Kelvin" title which people had come to associate with the position. Ever since then, the rulership of the city, and the title, have been passed on from mother to daughter. All of the Lady Kelvin's have had raven-black hair, and the same striking green eyes as the very first Lady Kelvin - Erek's grandmother.

There are rumors that the ancient sorceress found a way to cheat death, moving her spirit from mother to daughter, or just rejuvenating her body every generation. Of course, those are only rumors... or are they?


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## Conaill (Mar 20, 2003)

GREAT drawing, Wolv0rine!


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## Conaill (Mar 24, 2003)

Any comments on the revised history above?


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## Lalato (Mar 24, 2003)

Conaill that's an interesting way to keep the legend of Erek's Grandmother alive.  It also ties in with Wolv0rine's alternate history.  I like it... you've made Erek's Grandmother a Lich!?!     (I wish there were more smilies...  I miss the devil smilies from other boards)...

Now for a completely alternate history...  Below is what fusangite posted in another thread...  

Fortunately, the history of Mor's End is the most maleable part of this project.  



> The most prominent local god in Mor's End is of course, Mor, founder of Mor's End. It is said that Mor was a human being whose mother died in child birth. Mor's father was a cruel man who sold his son to dwarven slavers.
> 
> Raised as a glorified draft animal in a highly ordered dwarven realm, Mor nonetheless realized he had a great destiny. As one of the mining slaves, he quickly learned many of the dwarven secrets of mining, smithing and masonry and came to be respected by his fellow slaves who included men, giants, gnomes, goblinoids and dwarves from other kingdoms.
> 
> ...


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## Tonguez (Mar 24, 2003)

If I may pipe in

Great histories all and it seems that working in Fusangites history would be easy enough - Mor was the young escaped slave who recruited the Hero Erek Nohan and thus the stories merge... (the rest of course Legend and Myth and who knows how much is true?

*Glazes*
As to the Glazes what if Sapphires is the secret ingredient to the glaze? Thus the discovery of the Glaze could be simultaneous with the discovery of the sapphires and still come after the Clay

*Silk Fishers*
Do the Silk Fisher Elves need to be worked into the History? Perhaps a small group of nomadic elf clans used to come down to the Lake on a seasonal basis in prehistoric times (some ancient camp sites still exists) but many were forced out after the Orc encroachments. Later when the new city had suppressed the Orc and Goblin raids a few elf clans returned to reclaim their ancestral campsites along the lake edge and thus became the Silkfisher Clans


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## Lalato (Mar 24, 2003)

the one thing I object to in fusangite's history is that the bad guys are dwarves...  I think to give things a bit more consistency the bad guys should be orcs or hobgoblins...

Hmmm...   That gives me an idea with regard to merging a lot of loose threads...

The orcs to the south were once part of the orc/hobgoblin kingdom.  After the kingdom fell...  the orcs south of the lake reverted to clans...  The actual orc/hobgoblin kingdom was much further south...  almost at the edge of the land controlled by sand barbarians.

Anyway... just a thought...
--sam


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## jdavis (Mar 24, 2003)

That would work well with the leaderless and bickering orc clans who all dream of once again becoming a powerful force but no one orc is strong enough to unite the clans once again (and maybe when one does arise the city "takes care of him" before he can unite the clans). It would also explain the hoards of bickering aimless goblins who are wandering around the south without any sign of leadership or unity. Perhaps somebody needs to put a battle in the history where the power of the Goblinoid kingdom of the swamp was shattered and the monsterous races were driven to the four winds. Without this strong leadership to hold together so many monsterous humanoids they now fight with each other as much as they raid the city or the caravan routes.


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## Conaill (Mar 24, 2003)

lalato said:
			
		

> *Conaill that's an interesting way to keep the legend of Erek's Grandmother alive.  It also ties in with Wolv0rine's alternate history.  I like it... you've made Erek's Grandmother a Lich!?!   *




Hey, I never said _anything_ about her being a lich!  

There's rumors of course, but I would leave it at that. Just stat her up as who she appears to be, and leave it up to the DMs to decide if they want to persue that angle...


I do gree we can blend in Fusangite's background on Mor as well. Make the bad guys hobgoblins perhaps? Kul Moren was the site of the hobgoblin fortress, and after the war a small number of remaining hobgoblins went into exile into the marsh, vowing to retake Kul Moren. That's why the dwarves have a regiment stationed in Mor's End.

Not sure we should make him a deity though...


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## Lalato (Mar 24, 2003)

Perhaps not a major deity... more like a saint or a very minor deity...  

He wouldn't have any clerics, but the people of Mor's End would find it comforting in times of great peril to say a quick prayer to Mor.

--sam


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## Tonguez (Mar 24, 2003)

lalato said:
			
		

> *Perhaps not a major deity... more like a saint or a very minor deity...
> 
> He wouldn't have any clerics, but the people of Mor's End would find it comforting in times of great peril to say a quick prayer to Mor.
> 
> --sam *




The technical term is Culture Hero - he's the larger than life figure that embodies the Common mans ideal. Not a god per se but definately more than human(oid)


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## jdavis (Mar 24, 2003)

Tonguez said:
			
		

> *
> 
> The technical term is Culture Hero - he's the larger than life figure that embodies the Common mans ideal. Not a god per se but definately more than human(oid) *




How about if he's a statue in the middle of a fountain in the town square whose waters are said to have special wish granting properties if you throw a copper piece into them.


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## fusangite (Mar 25, 2003)

Sorry to be such an iconoclast. Because I played Runequest for so many years, I'm used to multiple mutually contradictory histories of places. Also, I still haven't got through all the old posts and don't know where everything is so I'm missing all kinds of info.

Anyway, use what you like of my random writings and dump the rest. If there's a particular hole in history, myth or religion you guys are having trouble filling, I'm happy to be set loose on it. Just let me know.


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## jdavis (Mar 25, 2003)

fusangite said:
			
		

> *Sorry to be such an iconoclast. Because I played Runequest for so many years, I'm used to multiple mutually contradictory histories of places. Also, I still haven't got through all the old posts and don't know where everything is so I'm missing all kinds of info.
> 
> Anyway, use what you like of my random writings and dump the rest. If there's a particular hole in history, myth or religion you guys are having trouble filling, I'm happy to be set loose on it. Just let me know. *




Keep it comming, it's generating conversation and helping to fill in holes. It's a fresh perspective.


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## fusangite (Mar 25, 2003)

*Enoria, the Perch God*

At the beginning of time when the world was covered by the ocean, fishes larger than anyone can imagine lived in shining cities of shells beneath the sea. These realms existed for countless ages until the gods raised up the world from the ocean. 

While most of the fishes abandoned their cities and fled to the outer ocean, Enoria the Perch was too proud of her beautiful castle with its grey rock spires. And so she swallowed a thousand thousand gallons of water and when she was raised onto the land, she spat it out and dove into the lake it made.

It is said by some mariners that Enoria still emerges on rare occasions from beneath the surface of the lake to gaze upon the shattered remnants of her castle. It is for this reason that attracts a small number of worshippers who pray to her for bountiful catches of fish from the lake and in exchange protect the secret of her lair beneath the water.

_Domains_: Water, Animal, Trickery
_Alignment_: Chaotic Neutral
_Clerics_: Swim, Craft - Net, Profession - Fisher available as class skills


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## Krug (Mar 25, 2003)

That sounds pretty good, fusangite.


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## Lalato (Mar 25, 2003)

> Keep it comming, it's generating conversation and helping to fill in holes. It's a fresh perspective.



I agree...  Perhaps fusangite would like to volunteer for Minister of History...  

--sam


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## Knightfall (Mar 25, 2003)

*Mor's End on the World of Kulan*

Hey guys, sorry I've been away so long - the pain you know.  Anyway, check out the link below for a CC2 map I did of the region around Mor's End on my homebrew campaign setting, World of Kulan.

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=795428#post795428


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## jdavis (Mar 25, 2003)

Conaill was looking for somebody with CC2 over in the Geography thread a couple of days ago.


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## Knightfall (Mar 25, 2003)

jdavis said:
			
		

> *Conaill was looking for somebody with CC2 over in the Geography thread a couple of days ago. *




Ya, I just read that.


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## Technik4 (Mar 26, 2003)

*First Post*

I volunteered for the NPC contest and was looking through the Mor's End stuff in this thread. Great stuff by the way! Anyway, the only big thing I thought of was a Coin Mint. Mostly because there seems to be a lot of gnomes and dwarves (more than regular d&d ones, which favor elves) and because a mint has so many roleplaying opportunities. Besides, Ive always wondered, where do all those piles of coins come from?

It may be too late, as much of the history/city seems pretty solid, but I just like the idea. There would probably be a whole different unit from the Capital guarding said mint, and a lot of good interplay between "Federal" and "State" police forces as it were. Plus you know people are going to want to rob it, subvert it, or just plain put it out of commission (anarchists!).

Technik

If there isnt room for this in the town proper, perhaps it could be nearby. I just read the part about the different names of the currency, and  I like the names. There would also have to be quite a few caravans of raw ore coming in to mint all this stuff...kinda goes with the theme of Mor's End, trade hub.


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## Lalato (Mar 26, 2003)

That's an interesting idea...  That would definitely take the "City of Coins" to the next level...

If there is a mint in Mor's End... it would probably be located in the central island so no one could rob it easily.

--sam


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## Conaill (Mar 26, 2003)

Great idea. Mint itself on Citadel Island, but the smelters would be in the industrial section in the easternmost part of the city, north of the river. Occasionally a river barge under heavy protection goes upriver from the smelters to the Mint.


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## jdavis (Mar 26, 2003)

What would the political mechanism to this be? Would it be a guild of coins or a warden of coins or would there be a coin guard? Who would control and protect the minting process? Do they only mint the cities coins? Was this something that used to be done at Kul Moren but was moved to the city for comvienance to the trade route and the population or was this something that sprung up in the city on it's own? DO they collect old worn coins for melting down and re-minting?


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## Technik4 (Mar 26, 2003)

I was thinking it would be one of the mints of a greater kingdom. In fact while some townspeople might be aware, it might be a "secret" location to the rest of the kingdom. There would be the Coin Knights guarding it, in the employ of the king/queen. Coins would be minted for a large part of the kingdom, and for the city itself. Reminting is definitely feasible.

If some of those answers arent in line with what youve already got, no prob, I havent read everything. Ie- if there is no greater kingdom that Mor's End is a part of, substitute Mor's End for Kingdom.

I would put gnomes in charge of the "finances" and dwarves in charge of the labor.

Technik


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## fusangite (Mar 26, 2003)

Thanks for the offer of being put in charge of something (the history thing) but to quote _American Beauty_, I'm looking for the least possible amount of responsibility.

I will nonetheless try to contribute something tonight.


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## fusangite (Mar 28, 2003)

Hey -- I posted a big history synthesis to a new thread on history and religion.

If people object to the creation of yet another thread, I'll move it here.


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## Gaon (Mar 30, 2003)

Can some-one post all the links related to Mor's End? It would make it so much easier to find things and save them.


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## Lalato (Mar 30, 2003)

Gaon said:
			
		

> *Can some-one post all the links related to Mor's End? It would make it so much easier to find things and save them. *




I'll have that up ASAP...

--sam


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## Lalato (Mar 30, 2003)

This thread has links for all of the various discussions on Mor's End.

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43533

My sig... has a link to the current NPC Contest.  I hope that helps.

--sam


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## GladiusNP (Mar 31, 2003)

Okay... very, very rough idea of city crest.  Grey, black, and yellow are the colours of Enworld, so I chose those for the colours of the crest.  The gold circles represent coins, for this is the city of coins.  They could be several different types, or all representations of Mor's End coinage.  I'd suggest that this is not the original crest, but was developed after Mor's End became a trade hub - so within 150 years, IIRC from the history.  

Though the coins seem too far down, I intend the space above to be filled with various other crests.  For example, the city watch may have a lantern in the centre.  The city guard may have a gate, while the castellan has a scroll, etc., etc.  The crest is also simple, allowing it to be stiched onto the Muster's padded armour, painted on shields, and scaled down to form small badges of office and the like.

Lastly, this doesn't follow the rules of heraldry.  Most notably, I've disregarded the law of tincture (metals must go on colors and vice versa).  I feel this is justified by both historical precedence (most people never bothered) and the fact that Mor's End is a frontier to the wilds - who cares if the crest is by the book, as long as it lets us tell friend from foe!

The words, or course, are not part of the coat-of-arms.  Again, this is a rough idea, made in paint.  I'm sure I agree with any disparaging remarks about the quality of the drawing - it's just an idea roughly fleshed out, not at all what it'd look like finished.


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## Lalato (Mar 31, 2003)

I never thought of a crest for the city before...  Interesting... (goes off to research crests and heraldry... cuz he don't know jack about it)

--sam


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## Conaill (Mar 31, 2003)

Grey, black, and yellow... keep in mind that a good deal of Mor's End's wealth is based on sapphires,  so blue would be *very* appropriate as well.

I would suggest black, dark grey and blue for the crest. Instead of a diagonal black bar, we could have a horizontal one, to even further match the color scheme on EN World.

How about something like this:


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## Krug (Mar 31, 2003)

I don't know about yellow. How about Gold? Or Bronze? 
No I don't have much heraldy knowledge.


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## Conaill (Mar 31, 2003)

Yeah, the yellow would really be "gold" of course. "Or" in heraldic terminology. But you can bet that on the vast majority signs it's just going to be yellow paint, cloth or thread...


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## fusangite (Apr 1, 2003)

I'd really like to push for ensuring that the civic crest reflects some aspect of the town's history or character. I'm not especially set on a particular aspect of the history but it does seem strange to me that the city's symbolic representation of itself should be wholly decoupled from its historical self-concept.

I'm not suggesting that this reference be the primary feature of the crest but it seems to me appropriate to include one or more of the following:
(a) a cypress tree in silhouette
(b) a fish
(c) silk
(d) a sheep
(e) a mining pick

One of the problems I have with Mor's End "City of Trade/Coins" is what else is a pre-modern city a city of? Unless it's the capital of an empire, the common thread of virtually all premodern cities is trade. Wouldn't cities of this size in every region be cities of trade?

To be clear, I'm not saying that Mor's End shouldn't see itself as a city of trade; I'm just saying that this cannot be the sole component of how the city symbolically represents itself. 

God knows I can't make a crest and therefore can't really step into the breach to "improve" on the attractive-looking crest that has been produced but I hope that my comments can be integrated in some way. Thanks for starting this work GladiusNP; a civic crest is indeed a very good idea. I'd just like it to be a crest that could not easily be adopted by some other city without modification.


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## jdavis (Apr 1, 2003)

I was sort of fond of "City of Chaos" but that would be hard to do on a crest. I don't think that "City of the spineless jellyfish" would make a very good crest either. I'd prefer the sapphires to the gold coins and think the diagnal stripe looks better.


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## Conaill (Apr 1, 2003)

fusangite said:
			
		

> *I'm not suggesting that this reference be the primary feature of the crest but it seems to me appropriate to include one or more of the following:
> (a) a cypress tree in silhouette
> (b) a fish
> (c) silk
> ...



Good points

(a) a cypress tree: easy to draw, easy to recognize (at least if we're talking about the tall "van Gogh" cypress trees, not the more spread out american varieties...)
(b) a fish: well.... they're some sort of jellyfish, right?
(c) silk: hard to represent
(d) a sheep: probably a little too mundane...
(e) a mining pick: refers to Mor and the dwarves, I like it.

Overall, the cypress and the mining pick seem the two most promising heraldic symbols. Perhaps cypress and emeralds?


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## Lalato (Apr 1, 2003)

> (a) a cypress tree: easy to draw, easy to recognize (at least if we're talking about the tall "van Gogh" cypress trees, not the more spread out american varieties...)
> (b) a fish: well.... they're some sort of jellyfish, right?
> (c) silk: hard to represent
> (d) a sheep: probably a little too mundane...
> (e) a mining pick: refers to Mor and the dwarves, I like it.




with regard to the sheep... don't forget that argali sheep have incredible horns.  We're not talking about your typical white fluffy sheep.  Argali's aren't that mundane.  

How about an Argali ram charging in the foreground... with a cypress tree in the background.  This scene would be encircled by sapphires.

jdavis... I'm fond of City of Chaos, too... but I think that's more of an enticing blurb for people to pick up Mor's End...  Sorta like the way Green Ronin labeled Freeport the "City of Adventure."

--sam


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## Conaill (Apr 1, 2003)

Lalato said:
			
		

> *with regard to the sheep... don't forget that argali sheep have incredible horns.  We're not talking about your typical white fluffy sheep.  Argali's aren't that mundane.  *



They're also not that central to Mor's End and teh founding of the city. Plus a stylized sheep is somewhat harder to draw than a stylized cypress (essentially just a green teardrop shape).


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## Lalato (Apr 1, 2003)

> They're also not that central to Mor's End and teh founding of the city. Plus a stylized sheep is somewhat harder to draw than a stylized cypress (essentially just a green teardrop shape).




Connail... why are we always at odds... 

Anyway... I beg to differ, the Lady Kelvin may be descended from the original Argali shepherds of this area.  Erekh may have been a clansman of the Argali shepherds.  At least according to my version of the history the above is true... 

If that's not enough...  Argali sheep provide wool, milk, meat, and horns.  Just because they're not as "sexy" as sapphires and fishersilk doesn't mean that they aren't important to the local economy.

--sam


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## Lalato (Apr 1, 2003)

If the Argali Ram is too difficult to draw... how about  an Argali horn encrusted with sapphires, encircling a cypress tree.

--sam


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## Conaill (Apr 1, 2003)

And that would be _easier_ to draw?


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## Conaill (Apr 1, 2003)

How about this for the cypress-and-sapphires crest? 

Lalato: I did try a version with a sheep's head as well, but I couldn't find a good arrangement (partly because I didn't want to put the sheep in center place). Feel free to propose one your self though! (Hint: profile view is probably best)


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## Conaill (Apr 1, 2003)

And just to show my goodwill towards Lalato, here's a Wondrous Item, just for him:








http://www.disturbingauctions.com/view.php?item=83


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## Lalato (Apr 1, 2003)

Neither the link or the image seem to work...

--sam


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## jdavis (Apr 1, 2003)

Lalato said:
			
		

> *Neither the link or the image seem to work...
> 
> --sam *




Both worked for me and both were sort of disturbing.


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## Lalato (Apr 1, 2003)

My guess is that my company blocks that site for some reason...

Conaill... if I draw something it will have to be by hand...  and I'm no artist to begin with.  I'll do my best and post my results tomorrow.  I have a game tonight...  woohoo!!!  

--sam


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## Wolv0rine (Apr 1, 2003)

Well, just looking at the crest there, you could put the sheep's head (if you want it in there) under the leaf/tree.  Maybe even have it sort of 'growing' from the top of the head from between the horns.
Just a thought.


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## Conaill (Apr 1, 2003)

Here ya go, sam. Enjoy!


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## Lalato (Apr 1, 2003)

Interesting...  it does, however, help me explain one of my crest ideas.

Take one of those horns and wrap it around the cypress tree that you drew.  I think that would make a good crest... with or without the sapphires.

--sam


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## Krug (Apr 1, 2003)

Conaill said:
			
		

> *And just to show my goodwill towards Lalato, here's a Wondrous Item, just for him:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




GAAAAH! TIMMMY!!! HOW COULD THEY???


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## jdavis (Apr 2, 2003)

Conaill said:
			
		

> *How about this for the cypress-and-sapphires crest?
> 
> *




Put the tree in the bottom corner (under the black line) and three saphires in the top corner in a triangle shape parallel to the black line. Leave the black line uncovered, or better yet make the background black and change the diagnal to yellow.


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## Conaill (Apr 2, 2003)

Kinda like this? I still like the design with the larger tree better.


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## GladiusNP (Apr 2, 2003)

Hmm... I'd prefer to have the cypress in the middle if it's going to be on the shield.  On the side looks sort of unbalanced.  Just a thought.


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## Conaill (Apr 2, 2003)

That's what I thought, and why I went with the tree-in-the-middle version to begin with.


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## GladiusNP (Apr 2, 2003)

Well you and I are definitely in agreement - I suppose we'll have to wait for the others to post why it should be on the side.


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## Lalato (Apr 2, 2003)

Please pardon the horribly bad art...  I'm not anything close to a graphics artist... and I know nothing of the history of heraldry.

Now that all of the disclaimers have been made... here you go...  The only thing missing is the sapphires.

--sam


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## Conaill (Apr 3, 2003)

Is that a leaf of the Cypress tree in the middle?  I still favor the simpler-to-draw versions above. Not so much for _our_ benefit, but for the benefit of all those low payed seamstresses that have to crank out the patches for the Guard and the Watch (not to mention the militia, or even the muster!). That's also why I would prefer a ram's head in profile: much easier to draw.


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## Lalato (Apr 3, 2003)

I'll have to respectfully disagree.  The seamstresses get paid to sew.  I'm not the least bit concerned how difficult it is for them to sew the patch.  I'm much more concerned about how good the final product looks.

(That, of course, is not to say that my drawing actually looks good.  I'm hoping someone will go off and actually make it look decent.)  



> Is that a leaf of the Cypress tree in the middle?



Hey... I already said I couldn't draw... what more do you want from me?  

--sam


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## wizardoftheplains (Apr 3, 2003)

bump.  just so i know i've reviewed all the threads.

gary


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## Krug (Apr 4, 2003)

I'll leave it to you guys to decide... work is swamping me at the moment. 

Perhaps lets target a date where we can 'close' the business of the present threads and move on to other matters. The NPC and shops thread can remain open, but military affairs, basic geography (as in Enheim), history and such can be closed. How does May 1 sound?

After that we'll examine what we're missing and work on those. eg: festivals, the yearly cycle and its effects, detailing specific areas in Mor's End etc.


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## jdavis (Apr 4, 2003)

Krug said:
			
		

> *I'll leave it to you guys to decide... work is swamping me at the moment.
> 
> Perhaps lets target a date where we can 'close' the business of the present threads and move on to other matters. The NPC and shops thread can remain open, but military affairs, basic geography (as in Enheim), history and such can be closed. How does May 1 sound?
> 
> After that we'll examine what we're missing and work on those. eg: festivals, the yearly cycle and its effects, detailing specific areas in Mor's End etc. *




Sounds good to me, If somebody hasn't opened up a monsters and adventures thread I'll open one up May 1st, we haven't gotten a minister for that yet either. MIlitary is about nailed down, just a little detail work to do and it's finished.


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## Krug (Apr 4, 2003)

Sounds great. Go for it May 1st.


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## Knightfall (Apr 17, 2003)

Nice to know there are going to be some deadlines.  I've lost tottal track of some of the threads.  It'll  be nice to close some of them and put all the finalized information into a rtf or pdf.

Maybe there should be a website where gathered information can be posted.  Opinions?


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## Lalato (Apr 17, 2003)

That works for me KF72...  

One simple and easy solution is to post the files to the Administration thread...

--sam


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## jasper (Apr 17, 2003)

Technik4 have you do your coin mint? I am learning how to mint and can give more information. Check out Murdock the Moneyer in the craft thread page 5. 

For those who want to know how minting was done.
Depending on the time period, they did have powered hammers. The powered hammer was driven by a water wheel generally with the water passing under the wheel, not like the normal movie where water drops from the top.
The raw ore was smelted off site generally at the mine itself. Further refining was done on site in furnaces. 
Basic process.
Heat metal in furnace or crucible. Pour in sheet molds near the thickness of the coin. Let cool. Take sheet and cut into working squares or strips. Sheets size depending on time. The strip was also used.
The following varies with time and location. The strip was place on table which had an arch punch generally one size larger than coin. Ex if striking dimes the blank would be penny size. The table had a hole in center with the arch punch over the hole. The strip would place over the punch the worker would be sitting down. Smack with hammer, blank falls into a tub below. Move strip forward smack again. The left over strip is melted down again. 
These blanks are weight and either clipped or a small amount added with a tack hammer. (not really a tack hammer but that gives the visual). These blanks go to the striker(s). The obverse (heads) die is placed in a stump. The blank on top and then the reverse is placed on. Smack the blank with three pound or greater. This could be a two-man operation. It was if you use a larger hammer. The coin goes to cutting table to be trimmed.  Imagine a table with a set of tin snips, with one handle being attached to table and a three-foot handle. The rim would be trim off. Think of ridge of coins or if have a long cross penny  all the cross must be there. The coins were then weight by groups. 
Done. A finished coins.
Coins were also cast in clay. The very basic process which I have yet to recreate. The molds had multiple coins engraved in to the clay. The mold was fired. Liquid metal pour into mold. Cool it. Break it. Clip off the flash. Melt the flash and spend the coins.
I still trying to figure out the mechanics of a hot strike the Roman’s did with bronze and other coins.

Jdavis asked
What would the political mechanism to this be? It varied a lot in history.
Would it be a guild of coins or a warden of coins or would there be a coin guard? 
Guild was generally with a goldsmith but I have a vague memory of some being separate. 
Who would control and protect the minting process? The king and local law.
Do they only mint the cities coins?  No a local lord, bishop, high mucky muck could have dies made for his use. 
DO they collect old worn coins for melting down and re-minting? In England if the all the arch of the long cross of the penny was missing, the coin was suppose to not be legal. Coins would be taken and melted. If decreed the precious metal content would be decreased. So yes some of coins in history were not totally one hundred percent pure. The coins would be reissued.
Other thoughts 
In England, the dies were generally issued from one location. The finish die would have some blank space so the local moneyer could add his name, location, mark etc. 

Please change the grey color of the crest to white or something else. It does not have enough contrast. 

Coins and Minting by Tom Cooper (If I remember the author off the top of my head.) Ibn 0747800693 for the pamphlet. 
SITES
http://www.money.org/numismaticinfo.html
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/6193/index.html
http://members.tripod.com/~Charlemagne64/medieval.html
http://units.ox.ac.uk/departments/archaeology/ccindex/ccindex.htm
http://kernunnos.com/Home.shtml
http://www.med.unc.edu/~nupam/welcome.html


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## Lalato (Apr 17, 2003)

jasper... interesting info...  Thanks for posting. 



> Please change the grey color of the crest to white or something else. It does not have enough contrast.




Ah...  more to the point, though... which variation of the crest is the most appealing...

--sam


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## jasper (Apr 17, 2003)

All but lalto that one looks like a turd wrap around something and it is too busy.  Either drop it or increase the green thing to at least half the height of shield but keep it in the cross. And increase the size of horn. 

The best way would be to print them all out on a sheet of paper each. And stand ten feet away. Then decide. 

I really hate busy modern heraldry. My unit crest change. Basically the Alabama flag (white with red x) with a minute man in the center and a eagle at it feet. Looks great in color. But in subdue colors you can't make it out.


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## Lalato (Apr 17, 2003)

> All but lalto that one looks like a turd wrap around something




LOL!!!  

Mor's End... the City of Turds...  

sorry, it had to be done...  now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

--sam


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## fusangite (Apr 17, 2003)

> Perhaps lets target a date where we can 'close' the business of the present threads and move on to other matters. The NPC and shops thread can remain open, but military affairs, basic geography (as in Enheim), history and such can be closed. How does May 1 sound?
> 
> After that we'll examine what we're missing and work on those. eg: festivals, the yearly cycle and its effects, detailing specific areas in Mor's End etc.




So, for those not reading the other threads, the history is now done. Perhaps those working on NPCs and other elements of the city might find it useful, especially those making clerics.

The question of festivals is an interesting one. Which thread will be discussing that?


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