# D&D General OGL: Kobold Press 'Raising Our Flag' For New Open RPG



## darjr

@Morrus


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## Ondath

Signed up to Project Black Flag. Interested to see what it will yield!


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## Retreater

Anyone else notice the page isn't working? (It was up as of 30 minutes ago.) Either it's getting a lot of attention or - hopefully not - the wrong kind of attention.


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## bostonmyk

Here is the text of it as of 12:06pm EST. 


> To our fellow Kobolds,​Kobold Press has been and always will be committed to open gaming and the tabletop community. Our goal is to continue creating the best materials for players and game masters alike.
> 
> This means Kobold Press will release its current Kickstarter projects as planned, including _Campaign Builder: Cities & Towns_ (already printed and on its way to backers this winter).
> 
> In particular, _Deep Magic Volume 2_ will remain fully compatible with the 5E rules. We are working with our VTT partners to maintain support for digital platforms.
> 
> As we look ahead, it becomes even more important for our actions to represent our values. While we wait to see what the future holds, we are moving forward with clear-eyed work on a new _Core Fantasy_ tabletop ruleset: available, open, and subscription-free for those who love it—Code Name: *Project Black Flag*.
> 
> All Kobolds look forward to the continued evolution of tabletop gaming. We aim to play our part in making the game better for everyone. Rest assured, Kobold Press intends to maintain a strong presence in the tabletop RPG community. We are not going anywhere.
> 
> To receive future announcements and to register to playtest this new core fantasy ruleset, please sign up *VIA THIS FORM*.
> 
> Join the Kobold Press community in our *official Discord *to unlock new secrets about our upcoming project. Help us #RaiseTheFlag.


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## bostonmyk

Really brave of them. They could have bent the knee and let smaller companies eat it. Let's see who follows suit (or doesn't).

Buying some Kobold stuff today!


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## Veltharis ap Rylix

Retreater said:


> Anyone else notice the page isn't working? (It was up as of 30 minutes ago.) Either it's getting a lot of attention or - hopefully not - the wrong kind of attention.


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## eyeheartawk

I'm hopeful, though as not a big fan of their Midgard setting I don't know how much it'll ultimately appeal, but I'll cheer for anybody who wants to stick a branch in Wizard's eye.


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## Jadeite

Really good news. I hope others will join. I really enjoyed my KP supplements, especially the setting books.


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## darjr

Wanna help them now? Buy something from them.


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## Henadic Theologian

WotC really, really, really ****ed up this time.

 "Bulls make money, Bears make money, Pigs get slaughtered"

 This disaster is what happens to corporations that turn into pigs, Hasbro won't be alone.


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## mcmillan

Interested to see where this goes - by far the most 3rd party things I bought have been from Kobold press both during 4e days and since the switch to 5e


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## jerryrice4949

The splintering already seems to be happening.  I love KP 5E material but just don’t see myself supporting a new system.


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## jerryrice4949

Just wish they would have released the Brilliant East before they abandon 5E.


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## mamba

Signed up, will back it


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## Reynard

I have never been so happy to be so wrong.


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## EzekielRaiden

Reynard said:


> I have never been so happy to be so wrong.



How do you mean?


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## Transformer

It does seem like a great splintering is upon us. All the systems that can be de-OGL'd will be, and many of them will come with new open licenses or be released under various versions of Creative Commons. Hopefully the most open, most irrevocable licenses with the fewest terms will attract lots of users.


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## Sacrosanct

Well, this is interesting.  While I would never tell someone to stop working on their own open system, KP has the resources and customer base to actually have it work, while all other 3PP doing systems (like the group I'm working with) will get lost in the chaff.


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## Reynard

EzekielRaiden said:


> How do you mean?



I would have bet money of all the big 3PPs, Kobold would have been the one to join WotC, given their business model.


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## Reynard

Transformer said:


> It does seem like a great splintering is upon us. All the systems that can be de-OGL'd will be, and many of them will come with new open licenses or be released under various versions of Creative Commons. Hopefully the most open, most irrevocable licenses with the fewest terms will attract lots of users.



The problem is people can only play one (or a couple) systems at a time. Unless they are very cross compatible, these D&D-likes will be competing instead of mutually beneficial.


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## TwoSix

Well, that certainly pushes back against the narrative that the big 3pp are working on side agreements with WotC.


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## This Effin’ GM

Whelp that’s something I need


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## BMaC

Henadic Theologian said:


> WotC really, really, really ****ed up this time.
> 
> "Bulls make money, Bears make money, Pigs get slaughtered"
> 
> This disaster is what happens to corporations that turn into pigs, Hasbro won't be alone.



Pure Hubris from them right? Where I live we would call the Hasbro execs who made this decision "gobshites."


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## Erdric Dragin

But I like 3.5e and its derivatives...guess those are gonna be gone forever huh? No more what little support is left to get for PF1e and support for 3.5e is all gone. 

I hate the TTRPG companies. 

One day...if I ever hit that billion dollar lotto...I'm bringing back 3.5e and find a way to buy out D&D and make it what it should be. 

At this point, though, that's a dream for another reality.

Makes me wanna just do something to Hasbro/WotC HQ that I can't say out loud...


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## TwoSix

Reynard said:


> The problem is people can only play one (or a couple) systems at a time. Unless they are very cross compatible, these D&D-likes will be competing instead of mutually beneficial.



What will be interesting over the next few months is seeing if multiple publishers can coalesce around a single new fantasy game, much like how multiple publishers moved to PF1 in 2008.

It will also be interesting to see if anyone attempts to “Pathfinderize” the 5e kernel.


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## eyeheartawk

Erdric Dragin said:


> But I like 3.5e and its derivatives...guess those are gonna be gone forever huh? No more what little support is left to get for PF1e and support for 3.5e is all gone.



Yeah, probably.

Though, by this point, even if just counting Wizard's and Paizo's 3.5/PF output, what gaps are left? You could even argue that they published _too much. _


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## DaveMage

I was wondering if one of the major OGL publishers would do something like this (or if a few of them would combine to create an RPG).

Good luck, Kobold Press!


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## overgeeked

Sacrosanct said:


> Well, this is interesting.  While I would never tell someone to stop working on their own open system, KP has the resources and customer base to actually have it work, while all other 3PP doing systems (like the group I'm working with) will get lost in the chaff.



My honest hope is that as many people as possible write their own open games and release them. It might take a few years, but I can see fans coalescing around certain publishers, systems, or even bits of systems and cobbling them all together to make a game that works best for them and their table. That would be ideal, really. The idea of one big centralized dominant game and game company needs to die here and now.


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## jerryrice4949

Reynard said:


> The problem is people can only play one (or a couple) systems at a time. Unless they are very cross compatible, these D&D-likes will be competing instead of mutually beneficial.



Exactly.  There may be room for an unlimited number of systems but many will only get marginal support.  Most people, collectors not included, will not buy and play many systems.  Initial sales might be good but as people settle on a system they will stop supporting others.  Feels like RPG Hunger Games are upon us.


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## TwoSix

Actually, signing up for the Kobold Press Black Flag product seems to indicate that they DO intend to Pathfinderize 5e.  Kudos.


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## jerryrice4949

This is probably good news for my marriage.  I have bought every 5E KP book.  Not buying their stuff will save me a small fortune.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots

Retreater said:


> Anyone else notice the page isn't working? (It was up as of 30 minutes ago.) Either it's getting a lot of attention or - hopefully not - the wrong kind of attention.



Do you think WotC has the time, interest and -- most importantly -- technical expertise to hack Kobold Press' website? Come on.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots

Reynard said:


> The problem is people can only play one (or a couple) systems at a time. Unless they are very cross compatible, these D&D-likes will be competing instead of mutually beneficial.



I would bet money that most of these systems take a cue from the OSR and will all be compatible enough with each other (by design) to work together.


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## Reynard

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Do you think WotC has the time, interest and -- most importantly -- technical expertise to hack Kobold Press' website? Come on.



That's a weird take. I think they were possibly suggesting a fan based attack.


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## Steel_Wind

jerryrice4949 said:


> The splintering already seems to be happening.  I love KP 5E material but just don’t see myself supporting a new system.



New? What makes you think this will be "new"?

It's 2008 all over again. This will be 5.1 SRD based OGL 1.0a version of D&D 5.5e. This is Pathfinder redux.


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## Reynard

Steel_Wind said:


> New? What makes you think this will be "new"?
> 
> It's 2008 all over again. This will be 5.1 SRD based OGL 1.0a version of D&D 5.5e. This is Pathfinder redux.



Well, no. The GSL did not try and de-authorize the OGL 1.0a or take back previous SRDs. This will have to be newer than PF1 was relative to 3.5.


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## Zaukrie

The odds I can get my group to agree on a game that isn't DnD are small. But because they won't try new games, but because we'd all have to agree on one game.....


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## SAVeira

Zaukrie said:


> The odds I can get my group to agree on a game that isn't DnD are small. But because they won't try new games, but because we'd all have to agree on one game.....



BINGO.  I am in the exact same situation.  I can get half the players to do a CoC one-shot when we cannot get others for D&D, otherwise no agreement for the whole group.


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## Dungeonosophy

i signed up for the Black Flag.


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## Steel_Wind

Reynard said:


> Well, no. The GSL did not try and de-authorize the OGL 1.0a or take back previous SRDs. This will have to be newer than PF1 was relative to 3.5.



WotC can huff and puff and threaten to blow their house down. But they can't stop this in court with an injunction - they don't meet the legal test for it.

The only thing WotC can really do that is practical and effective? That's to not let 5e go out of print. And a 5e that isn't out of print is a 5.1 SRD under the OGL 1.0a that continues to beat with a pulse. That's a VTT that continues to be authorized - and THAT is what WotC does not want.  They paid $140 million for DDB so they could use that asset to earn money in an exclusive space.

I know, I know: _It's inconvenient as all hell when your competitors don't give up easily._


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## Frozen_Heart

I'm so happy to see this. 5e has needed a competitor for so long. A monopoly isn't good for anyone. Pathfinder 2e was always poorly suited for attracting the the 5e playerbase, so hopefully this one is better for it.

(hopefully it has a few more classes than 5e)


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## jerryrice4949

Zaukrie said:


> The odds I can get my group to agree on a game that isn't DnD are small. But because they won't try new games, but because we'd all have to agree on one game.....



I can relate.  Also due to sunk cost of our current material.


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## Zaukrie

jerryrice4949 said:


> I can relate.  Also due to sunk cost of our current material.



Right. I own enough 5e stuff to play well beyond my expected life span.


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## jerryrice4949

Zaukrie said:


> Right. I own enough 5e stuff to play well beyond my expected life span.



I have 20-30 books I haven’t even had time to open yet.  Yup.  I can and probably will stop buying material outside of the occasional miniature until this all resolves.


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## Myrdin Potter

I would imagine this would be an SRD free clone of 5e. Kobold Press has released a ton of 5e material and has the incentive not to make a completely new system.


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## timbannock

overgeeked said:


> My honest hope is that as many people as possible write their own open games and release them. It might take a few years, but I can see fans coalescing around certain publishers, systems, or even bits of systems and cobbling them all together to make a game that works best for them and their table. That would be ideal, really. The idea of one big centralized dominant game and game company needs to die here and now.



So much this! Having bigger companies like KP (and perhaps Paizo) with resources to spare putting out brand new games might actually lead to the best possible scenario: D&D no longer being synonymous with RPG, and also several very well-produced, slick looking games that are well supported across all the VTTs, Demiplanes, etc.



Zaukrie said:


> The odds I can get my group to agree on a game that isn't DnD are small. But because they won't try new games, but because we'd all have to agree on one game.....






SAVeira said:


> BINGO.  I am in the exact same situation.  I can get half the players to do a CoC one-shot when we cannot get others for D&D, otherwise no agreement for the whole group.




How many people really die on the hill of "I'll only play Monopoly at game night. Star Wars Monopoly, Mario Monopoly, whatever...it's just gotta be monopoly." That's the world TTRPGs have been living in for 50 years and it's really old. At the very least we are living in an age where it is easier to find other gamers who might have similar tastes. You are online talking about this, after all. And if the big 3PP companies start pushing out really slick, well-produced games of their own, with support across the VTTs and Demiplanes and so on of the world, maybe your players will come around to the idea of trying new stuff?

I bet there's something to be said about new games solving the GM problem. If anybody can do that, well, it's never been WOTC, but it quite possibly might be a rededicated KP, Paizo, Monte Cook, etc. working on their own games.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots

Reynard said:


> That's a weird take. I think they were possibly suggesting a fan based attack.



Also a very weird take. Who are the pro-OGL fans trying to take down Kobold Press?

A small company's web servers get hammered by unusually high attention and can't keep up. No sinister explanations required.


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## Dausuul

Signed up. I look forward to seeing where they're going with this.



bostonmyk said:


> Really brave of them. They could have bent the knee and let smaller companies eat it. Let's see who follows suit (or doesn't).



So far, I have seen exactly two responses from companies affected by the change:

1. We will not sign on to OGL 1.1 and we are moving away from reliance on the OGL.
2. We are consulting with counsel and have no comment at this time.

Notably absent is anything along the lines of "We think we can work with WotC and look forward to using the OGL 1.1."


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## Reynard

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Also a very weird take. Who are the pro-OGL fans trying to take down Kobold Press?
> 
> A small company's web servers get hammered by unusually high attention and can't keep up. No sinister explanations required.



Sure. I wasn't suggesting I agreed with the idea, just that I didn't think they meant a hack by WotC.


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## deganawida

Never bought any KP stuff, but I signed up just for solidarity's sake.


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## Riley

Great!

I’ve been with the Kobolds since they were Open Design and creating their 3e/d20 Kingdom of the Ghouls.

I especially liked their *non-GSL, non-OGL, but 4e-compatible adventures* ‘Wrath of the River King’ and ‘Courts of the Shadow Fey.’

I trust Wolfgang, et al. will know how to thrive in this new era, as well.


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## Zaukrie

timbannock said:


> So much this! Having bigger companies like KP (and perhaps Paizo) with resources to spare putting out brand new games might actually lead to the best possible scenario: D&D no longer being synonymous with RPG, and also several very well-produced, slick looking games that are well supported across all the VTTs, Demiplanes, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How many people really die on the hill of "I'll only play Monopoly at game night. Star Wars Monopoly, Mario Monopoly, whatever...it's just gotta be monopoly." That's the world TTRPGs have been living in for 50 years and it's really old. At the very least we are living in an age where it is easier to find other gamers who might have similar tastes. You are online talking about this, after all. And if the big 3PP companies start pushing out really slick, well-produced games of their own, with support across the VTTs and Demiplanes and so on of the world, maybe your players will come around to the idea of trying new stuff?
> 
> I bet there's something to be said about new games solving the GM problem. If anybody can do that, well, it's never been WOTC, but it quite possibly might be a rededicated KP, Paizo, Monte Cook, etc. working on their own games.



Maybe I like the people I play with.....


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## jerryrice4949

Dausuul said:


> Signed up. I look forward to seeing where they're going with this.
> 
> 
> So far, I have seen exactly two responses from companies affected by the change:
> 
> 1. We will not sign on to OGL 1.1 and we are moving away from reliance on the OGL.
> 2. We are consulting with counsel and have no comment at this time.
> 
> Notably absent is anything along the lines of "We think we can work with WotC and look forward to using the OGL 1.1."



I have noticed that too.  It really isn’t surprising though.  The more we learned about OGL 1.1 it has become apparent it would be very difficult to continue for most companies.  Whether intentional or not WoTC would make it almost untenable.  That makes me wonder if perhaps they revisit some of 1.1.


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## J.Quondam

Dausuul said:


> Notably absent is anything along the lines of "We think we can work with WotC and look forward to using the OGL 1.1."



Tbh, if I were a small 3pp, I might be feeling more than a little stuck between a rock WotC's OGL1.1 and a hardplace potential fan blacklash.


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## Dausuul

jerryrice4949 said:


> I have noticed that too.  It really isn’t surprising though.  The more we learned about OGL 1.1 it has become apparent it would be very difficult to continue for most companies.



Oh, yeah. The license terms are so absurdly, cartoonishly bad that I have trouble imagining anybody who is both a) savvy enough to build a successful 3PP and b) unsavvy enough to sign.


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## Art Waring

Very interesting news, as they were one of the biggest supporters of 5e (or at least one of the most well known).

I like the name of the project too.


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## Zaukrie

J.Quondam said:


> Tbh, if I were a small 3pp, I might be feeling more than a little stuck between a rock WotC's OGL1.1 and a hardplace potential fan blacklash.



I mean I publish only in dmsguild so far, but I have some stuff I've considered for drivethru..... Do I potentially piss off a lot of people that buy products? I have no idea what to do at this point. Well, I have two system free things I can post....


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## jerryrice4949

Weird times.  Dream coming true of a D&D movie and tv show.  Nightmare of OGL being threatened.


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## overgeeked

deganawida said:


> Never bought any KP stuff, but I signed up _*just for solidarity's sake*_.



That. We need a lot more of that.


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## Vaalingrade

We were talking about this privately and one of my artists point out that this could be the fatal flaw in the OGL 1.1 plan: even the biggest other game companies in this ecosystem aren't really big enough to become inherently unprincipled and shackled to the profit motive. They're small enough and lack a board to demand they follow the money and not take risks. More than WotC or we suspect are likely to try to make their own than kiss the ring.


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## Zardnaar

Kobolds are the new Paizo for me. I'll throw them some money for PDFs. 

 Shipping for their books cost about the same as the books, $200 for 3 of them.


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## Robert F

Morrus said:


> Kobold Press has announced its plans regardimg the upcoming new OGL v1.1, whihc involve a new, open game code named *Project Black Flag.*
> 
> *View attachment 271922*​
> 
> 
> 
> Kobold Press has been and always will be committed to open gaming and the tabletop community. Our goal is to continue creating the best materials for players and game masters alike.
> 
> This means Kobold Press will release its current Kickstarter projects as planned, including _Campaign Builder: Cities & Towns_ (already printed and on its way to backers this winter).
> 
> In particular, _Deep Magic Volume 2_ will remain fully compatible with the 5E rules. We are working with our VTT partners to maintain support for digital platforms.
> 
> As we look ahead, it becomes even more important for our actions to represent our values. While we wait to see what the future holds, we are moving forward with clear-eyed work on a new _Core Fantasy_ tabletop ruleset: available, open, and subscription-free for those who love it—Code Name: *Project Black Flag*.
> 
> All Kobolds look forward to the continued evolution of tabletop gaming. We aim to play our part in making the game better for everyone. Rest assured, Kobold Press intends to maintain a strong presence in the tabletop RPG community. We are not going anywhere.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Raising Our Flag - Kobold Press
> 
> 
> Kobold Press is committed to open gaming. We are moving forward with clear-eyed work on a new Core Fantasy tabletop ruleset: available, open, and subscription-free for those who love it—Code Name: Project Black Flag.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koboldpress.com



KP shall endure! 
"... Prepare to repel boarders!!!"


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## timbannock

Zaukrie said:


> Maybe I like the people I play with.....



Then you're all set because you still have everything you already own for D&D!


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## Shardstone

J.Quondam said:


> Tbh, if I were a small 3pp, I might be feeling more than a little stuck between a rock WotC's OGL1.1 and a hardplace potential fan blacklash.



I am.


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## el-remmen

Zaukrie said:


> The odds I can get my group to agree on a game that isn't DnD are small. But because they won't try new games, but because we'd all have to agree on one game.....




Just get yourself players who love to play but are basically totally disconnected from what is going on the in the community/industry and then call any game you present them "D&D." 

For example, I pitched Gamma World by calling it "post-apocalyptic D&D with mutated plants and animals."


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## Reynard

el-remmen said:


> Just get yourself players who love to play but are basically totally disconnected from what is going on the in the community/industry and then call any game you present them "D&D."
> 
> For example, I pitched Gamma World by calling it "post-apocalyptic D&D with mutated plants and animals."



I think @Zaukrie has a group he likes, that likes D&D, and that's okay. We don't need to demand other people conform to our idea of sufficiently ideologically pure regarding D&D or the OGL.


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## Jadeite

Small but fierce indeed.


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## DEFCON 1

I'm glad to see Kobold is going to try to put together their own game... but I also know that getting enough buy-in on your new product to be able to keep your doors open is not easy.  Especially when it does not have a substantial built-in fanbase to access.

So just because Kobold are saying this right now... there's still plenty of time for them to come back to 5E if HasbrotC ends up changing their decisions on 1.1 and makes it more enticing for them to continue as-is.  Which means those fans who are trying to wipe their hands completely clean of HasbrotC might be jumping the gun a little bit by going all-in on this product.


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## see

Dausuul said:


> Notably absent is anything along the lines of "We think we can work with WotC and look forward to using the OGL 1.1."



Which, if Wizbro had any sense of history, should be taken as a _particularly_ bad sign. Because that means this "OGL 1.1" is getting a _worse_ reaction than the GSL, which Mongoose Publishing said some nice things about.


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## Riley

DEFCON 1 said:


> I'm glad to see Kobold is going to try to put together their own game... but I also know that getting enough buy-in on your new product to be able to keep your doors open is not easy.  Especially when it does not have a substantial built-in fanbase to access.
> 
> So just because Kobold are saying this right now... there's still plenty of time for them to come back to 5E if HasbrotC ends up changing their decisions on 1.1 and makes it more enticing for them to continue as-is.  Which means those fans who are trying to wipe their hands completely clean of HasbrotC might be jumping the gun a little bit by going all-in on this product.




All that Kobold has announced is that they have begun “work on a new Core Fantasy tabletop ruleset: available, open, and subscription-free for those who love it—Code Name: *Project Black Flag*.”

Depending on how things shake out, Project Black Flag could be a new system, or it could be an almost-but-not-quite-fully-compatible 5e/dnd1 clone.

They probably don’t even have to decide which for a while yet.


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## DEFCON 1

Riley said:


> All that Kobold has announced is that they have begun “work on a new Core Fantasy tabletop ruleset: available, open, and subscription-free for those who love it—Code Name: *Project Black Flag*.”
> 
> Depending on how things shake out, Project Black Flag could be a new system, or it could be an almost-but-not-quite-fully-compatible 5e/dnd1 clone.
> 
> They probably don’t even have to decide which for a while yet.



Indeed!  I'm just saying that because we don't know anything yet... those people who are right now jumping into this Project with both feet in order to thumb their nose at "The Man" just need to be careful-- they might be accidentally subsidizing another eventual D&D and WotC-adjacent project after all.


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## bedir than

Raising the black flag of Edward Kenway, James McGraw/Flint


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## overgeeked

Riley said:


> All that Kobold has announced is that they have begun “work on a new Core Fantasy tabletop ruleset: available, open, and subscription-free for those who love it—Code Name: *Project Black Flag*.”
> 
> Depending on how things shake out, Project Black Flag could be a new system, or it could be an almost-but-not-quite-fully-compatible 5e/dnd1 clone.
> 
> They probably don’t even have to decide which for a while yet.



According to the landing page they put up it reads like they will attempt to clone 5E and put it into the wild.


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## Malmuria

Reynard said:


> The problem is people can only play one (or a couple) systems at a time. Unless they are very cross compatible, these D&D-likes will be competing instead of mutually beneficial.




I don't know...I played probably ~20 different games last year, some in (mini) campaigns of 10-20 sessions and some for just one shots.  Even with my most regular group, the long-burn, single system campaign just practically doesn't work.  Someone's schedule gets busy and we have to switch to a new GM or we just want more variety.  If I'm prepping something beyond a one shot, I'm probably only thinking 10 sessions, and if it goes longer I'll figure it out when we get to that point.


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## Ondath

DEFCON 1 said:


> Indeed!  I'm just saying that because we don't know anything yet... those people who are right now jumping into this Project with both feet in order to thumb their nose at "The Man" just need to be careful-- they might be accidentally subsidizing another eventual D&D and WotC-adjacent project after all.



In order for Project Black Flag to be what you describe, WotC would need to *severely *backtrack on the path that they are currently on.

And if that happens, and we get actual, concrete ways to assure that OGL remains irrevocable and no future MBA guy can try to backtrack on it, then yeah, sure, I can hop back on the WotC train.

But anything below that and I'm pretty sure I'm entirely done with them.


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## Reynard

Malmuria said:


> I don't know...I played probably ~20 different games last year, some in (mini) campaigns of 10-20 sessions and some for just one shots.  Even with my most regular group, the long-burn, single system campaign just practically doesn't work.  Someone's schedule gets busy and we have to switch to a new GM or we just want more variety.  If I'm prepping something beyond a one shot, I'm probably only thinking 10 sessions, and if it goes longer I'll figure it out when we get to that point.



And you don't think you are an outlier?


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## Aldarc

Steel_Wind said:


> New? What makes you think this will be "new"?
> 
> It's 2008 all over again. This will be 5.1 SRD based OGL 1.0a version of D&D 5.5e. This is Pathfinder redux.



Not sure. There were a lot of people dissatisfied with 4e D&D, and PF1 promised to be a continuation of 3.5e. There was enough of a difference between systems. But between 5e and One D&D? I'm not sure if the changes are substantial enough to get the Average Joe to jump ship and raise the Black Flag if it's just 5e Redux.


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## Vaalingrade

overgeeked said:


> According to the landing page they put up it reads like they will attempt to clone 5E and put it into the wild.



Unfortunate.

I'd hope making their own would include improvement.


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## Riley

Aldarc said:


> But between 5e and One D&D? I'm not sure if the changes are substantial enough to get the Average Joe to jump ship and raise the Black Flag if it's just 5e Redux.




If Project Black Flag is simply an Open document publishers can reference when publishing ‘5e Redux’-compatible content, then there is no need for customers to “raise the Black Flag.” Kobold Press will just go on selling D&D-compatible books to D&D players.

It worked for them in the 4e-era,… so much so that Wizards contracted Kobolds to write the first 5e hardback adventures.


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## Dausuul

DEFCON 1 said:


> Indeed!  I'm just saying that because we don't know anything yet... those people who are right now jumping into this Project with both feet in order to thumb their nose at "The Man" just need to be careful-- they might be accidentally subsidizing another eventual D&D and WotC-adjacent project after all.



Nobody's subsidizing nothing just yet. All that happens if you sign up is that you go on their mailing list for notifications and updates.


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## Reynard

In case some folks haven't or can't click thru:
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_As Dungeons & Dragons moves toward the 50th anniversary of the game, foundational changes are afoot in the tabletop roleplaying game arena. While we wait to see exactly what shape the Open Gaming License might take in this new era, Kobold Press is also moving forward with some clear-eyed work on keeping the 5E rule set available, open, and subscription-free for those who love it: the Core Fantasy experiment. To receive future announcements and to register to playtest this ruleset, please sign up using this form.

When the new Open Gaming License and an updated System Reference Document are made public, Kobold Press will review the terms and consider whether they fit the needs of our audience and our business goals.

The kobolds are looking forward to the continued evolution of tabletop gaming, and we aim to play our part in making the game better. Rest assured Kobold Press intends to maintain a strong presence in the tabletop RPG community._
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I am cooler on this than I was on the front page of the announcement. First off, I don't know how they think they are going to legally pull it off. Secondly, do we need this?


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## DaveMage

I wonder if calling it "Project Black Flag" means they will be joined by some denizens from Freeport....


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## Umbran

Reynard said:


> I am cooler on this than I was on the front page of the announcement. First off, I don't know how they think they are going to legally pull it off. Secondly, do we need this?




Did we need Pathfinder?  "Need" is kind of a loaded word.  
More importantly, was Pathfinder a positive force on the overall market and community at the time?


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## Dausuul

Ondath said:


> In order for Project Black Flag to be what you describe, WotC would need to *severely *backtrack on the path that they are currently on.



Not necessarily. There is actually quite a lot that can be done to create D&D-compatible material, maybe even functional D&D clones, without using any kind of OGL.

The problem is that in doing so, you are leaving the safe harbor* of the OGL and wading into the exceedingly treacherous waters of IP law, which is even weirder and more confusing than most forms of law. You more or less have to have a lawyer with relevant expertise review every. single. word. And that ain't cheap.

So, in practice, this route is seldom taken except when the creator happens to _be_ a lawyer with relevant expertise. KenzerCo, for example, went this route with Kingdoms of Kalamar during the 4E era (Dave Kenzer is an IP lawyer).

*Recently sacked by the Hasbro Navy.


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## MockingBird

Umbran said:


> Did we need Pathfinder?  "Need" is kind of a loaded word.
> More importantly, was Pathfinder a positive force on the overall market and community at the time?



In my opinion I think PF made D&D better. Or at least in my preference it pushed the version of D&D I liked better, 5e.


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## Princessmaker




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## TwoSix

Reynard said:


> And you don't think you are an outlier?



10-20 session campaigns with rotating DMs mixed in with occasional one-shots is the norm for my groups as well.


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## DEFCON 1

Dausuul said:


> Nobody's subsidizing nothing just yet. All that happens if you sign up is that you go on their mailing list for notifications and updates.



And that's cool.  If some people would intend to get involved with anything new that Kobold was to publish anyway, then this seems like an interesting new product.

I just got the impression though by the way some people were commenting that they were doing it more as a statement against HasbrotC rather than a statement for Kobold Press.  And that's where folks might find themselves ending up back to being part of the problem later on if their statement gets turned around on them.


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## Reynard

Umbran said:


> Did we need Pathfinder?  "Need" is kind of a loaded word.
> More importantly, was Pathfinder a positive force on the overall market and community at the time?



I think there is a significant difference in this situation, though, because 1D&D does not appear to be particularly far removed from 5E in the way 4E was from Pathfinder. As such, it seems especially difficult a) for Kobold to get away with it if WotC really clamps down on the new OGL, and b) to create a niche outside of 1D&D for the continued support of 5E or a 5E like.

As to "need" I would argue yes, in fact, there was a need for Pathfinder, given the circumstances of its birth. What we need isn't a serial numbers filed off 5E game but a solid, open fantasy game that fills the same need but isn't constantly in the crosshairs of WotC. I am sure Kobold could design one and I would rather see them do that than just create a wiki of 5E rules with a few search/replace terms.


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## Zardnaar

Assassin's Creed 1.1 is done by the Templars!!

 Freeportyo ho ho?


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## Ondath

Dausuul said:


> Not necessarily. There is actually quite a lot that can be done to create D&D-compatible material, maybe even functional D&D clones, without using any kind of OGL.
> 
> The problem is that in doing so, you are leaving the safe harbor* of the OGL and wading into the exceedingly treacherous waters of IP law, which is even weirder and more confusing than most forms of law. You more or less have to have a lawyer with relevant expertise review every. single. word. And that ain't cheap.
> 
> So, in practice, this route is seldom taken except when the creator happens to _be_ a lawyer with relevant expertise. KenzerCo, for example, went this route with Kingdoms of Kalamar during the 4E era (Dave Kenzer is an IP lawyer).
> 
> *Recently sacked by the Hasbro Navy.



Well yes, but in that case Project Black Flag would still be sailing outside the jurisdiction of OGL v1.1 and the admiralty of Hasbro. We're all up in arms precisely because we don't like the island's new governor. If we can privateer while still sticking to the system we like... That's fine. Also, I really lost sight of where that metaphor was going very quickly.

Will I need to replay Monkey Island to remember my pirate lingo?


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## Charles Dunwoody

SAVeira said:


> BINGO.  I am in the exact same situation.  I can get half the players to do a CoC one-shot when we cannot get others for D&D, otherwise no agreement for the whole group.




My players always urge me to pick the game I'm going to GM. Because I'm doing 95% of the work I suppose.


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## Zehnseiter

Dausuul said:


> So, in practice, this route is seldom taken except when the creator happens to _be_ a lawyer with relevant expertise. KenzerCo, for example, went this route with Kingdoms of Kalamar during the 4E era (Dave Kenzer is an IP lawyer).



Didn't KenzerCo actually win a legal fight with WotC back in the 3E days ?  Some Kingdom of Kalamar Books had even the offical D&D logo on them because of this. Or do I misremember this.


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## darjr

Their website is getting crushed so they made a video


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## Umbran

Reynard said:


> I think there is a significant difference in this situation, though, because 1D&D does not appear to be particularly far removed from 5E in the way 4E was from Pathfinder. As such, it seems especially difficult a) for Kobold to get away with it if WotC really clamps down on the new OGL, and b) to create a niche outside of 1D&D for the continued support of 5E or a 5E like.




Those seem to be more about likelihood of success than they are about the value of the thing should it succeed.



Reynard said:


> As to "need" I would argue yes, in fact, there was a need for Pathfinder, given the circumstances of its birth.




When I say "need is a loaded word," I'm coming at it from the position that I _need_ water, air, food, clothes, a home, and a job to continue having those other things.  In that sense, no, I don't _need_ a 5e clone, or, in fact, any RPG at all.  I can find other hobbies, if RPGs were to disappear entirely.

The other way this can be viewed is that we "need" a thing _to achieve some goal, purpose, or end state_.  We have not agreed upon what the goal, purpose, or state might be, so we can't really discuss whether this is required to reach it.

So, the question of "need" is either hyperbolic, or underspecified.


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## Maggan

Zehnseiter said:


> Didn't KenzerCo actually win a legal fight with WotC back in the 3E days ?  Some Kingdom of Kalamar Books had even the offical D&D logo on them because of this. Or do I misremember this.



As far as I remember there was a legal battle due to the inclusion of Knights of the Dinner Table on the Dragon Magazine CD, which at least as a partial result landed an official D&D license at KenzerCo.


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