# Hillside Games, Asheville: The Unfriendly Local Game Store



## Nareau

*Hillside Games of Asheville, NC* - the worst game store in America? Unethical practices, domain-name stealing, anti-competitive tactics, and frivolous lawsuit threats against those who criticize are just the start!

_This news item was originally a forum thread posted *Nareau.* I've promoted it to a news item because I thought it was worth seeing. The below is his post. I suggest that folks let the offending store know how they feel about their actions via email or the Facebook page. But don't, like, buy anything from them or anything. - Morrus._

_[UPDATE - Hillside Games has turned off public wall posts on their Facebook page, effectively censoring the criticism posted there and presumably in the hope that the problem will just go away. However, according to the domain name WHOIS information, you can still reach them via the email address amanda@hillsidegames.com; fortunately, they can't delete this article.]_

_[UPDATE 2: They're also deleting any references to this made as comments in other threads on their Facebook page.]_

Recently, one of the two gaming stores in town [Asheville, NC] closed its doors. They focused on boardgames and had a huge selection. Their prices were competitive with Amazon, and they sponsored a weekly game night at a local cafe. All-in-all, they were pretty awesome.

A buddy of mine (a guy from our gaming group) stepped in and bought out their stock when they closed. It wasn't easy, but it's something he's wanted to do for a long time. He's got a space on the west side of town lined up, and plans to open The Wyvern's Tale in a couple months.

Unfortunately, the other remaining gaming store [Hillside Games] appears to be run by jerks. See, they found out that he was going to reopen the boardgame shop. They decided to go on the offensive, despite being on the other side of town and the fact they cater to card-gamers. They registered every domain name they could think of: thewyvernstale.com, .net, .info, .mobi, etc. Besides being illegal, it's incredibly petty. Unfortunately, it costs over $1000 to file a complaint against them.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around what they hoped to gain from this. And does anyone know if my buddy has any options besides shelling out $1k and being vocal on the Internet?

EDIT - Update by Morrus - The Wyvern's Tale (see their Facebook page) reports that Hillside Games is now, incredibly, threatening to _sue them for libel_. This, in my particular view, takes them far beyond being mere underhand cybersquatters; in my opinion they're now bullies trying to take someone's lunch money. 
We have been contacted by the management of Hillside Games. They are threatening now to sue us for libel, unless we remove all related posts and make a public apology for our actions.

We have thought about it, and debated about whether we should comply. We have been emotional, we admit. Perhaps even inflammatory, at times. We have decided to remove some of our more inflammatory remarks, and we do... apologize for that behavior. 

Libel is a serious charge, but at its core, it requires that we told a lie, an untruth. Our claims were not only true, they have evidence. The WHOIS information of a domain name is public information, and right there in black and white, you can see that the domains corresponding to our business name have been registered by Hillside Games. The day after we announced our plan to do business.

So then, the question remains: Do we apologize unconditionally? Do we give in to fear, and offer a feeble apology, for sharing the truth? We have decided...absolutely not. The truth is the truth, and that can never change. Two plus two equals four, and there will always be four lights (Bonus points to those of you who get that).

In the spirit of being cautious, however, we have elected that we will leave their Facebook page alone. We have also decided that when we speak or write on this matter, henceforth, we will only provide facts. The facts are thus: 

-On 07 February 2012, The Wyvern's Tale LLC was formed in the State of North Carolina.

-On 17 February 2012, The Wyvern's Tale LLC, through the medium of Facebook, announced its intentions to do business as The Wyvern's Tale in Asheville.

-On 18 February 2012, Hillside Games, Inc. registered www.thewyvenrstale.com, .net, .org, .us, .mobi, .info.

-On 27 February 2012, The Wyvern's Tale LLC, through the medium of Facebook, announced that Hillside Games, Inc registered the aforementioned domain names on the aforementioned date. Let the record show that these announcements did contain some emotional language.

-On 28 February 2012, the Chief Financial Officer of Hillside Games, Inc. contacted the proprietors of The Wyvern's Tale LLC and demanded that all related posts be removed from Facebook and that The Wyvern's Tale LLC issue a public, written apology, lest they bring suit for libel.

Further:

-The registration of a domain name corresponding to a competing business's trademark in order to profit by or disrupt their business is against the ICANN'S Uniform Domain Name Resolution Policy, and against the Anticybersquatting Consumer Protection Act. 

Those are the facts. We pledge to do no more than make these publicly available. 

What you make of these facts, dear Readers, and what you do with them, is up to you.
​So, as The Wyvern's Tale folks point out, for something to be libel, it needs to be untrue. Let's take a look at the WHOIS details for the domain, shall we?






​ 

*Apparently it doesn't end there!*​ 

It doesn't take much research to turn up customer reviews on the web. It seems that complaints about this store are more common than we thought. Here's a list of quotes from other sites around the web:

"Owner nate sykes practices bad business. Repeatedly overcharged and charged mine and others cards without consent. Owner also files fraudulent dci suspensions against individuals he doesn't like. Good luck getting large mtg tournaments or sponsorship, last 1k we had 32... AVOID AT ALL COSTS." - Yahoo.​
"I found the owner to be rude and obnoxious he dose not keep an what his customers are doing as I was slammed against the by one of the members of my D&D group" - Yahoo.​
"I read the following article on Hillside Games and find their business practices absolutely revolting and despicable. Stooping so low to undermine a competitor is un-American, cowardly, and utterly gutless." - Yelp.​
"Underhanded business practices. AVOID!!!!" - Yelp.​
"Wow, I considered warning you about Hillside but neglected. Nate, who owns it, is a total ********. He screwed with the _Sword and Grail_ as much as possible when it was open. I wouldn't be surprised if he gives *** to _Gamer's Haunt_ in Weaverville too. Best of luck in combating him." - Facebook.​
"There's a reason I don't go in there inspite of living less than a mile away" - Facebook.​
There were about a dozen comments in the "recommendations" sidebar of Hillside Games' Facebook page but they have since been detelted by Hillside Games.
​


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## Yora

Pick another name.


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## Zelda Themelin

Wyvern's Cave
Wyvern's Story
Wyvern's Lair


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## Yora

Maybe something with more mass market appeal. Will be hard enough to get customers and since it's not explicitly an RPG store you don't want make potential customers have doubts about the name.


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## skinnydwarf

Also, the name of his store and the domain should have the word "Games" in it, so people don't just think it's a bookstore or whatever.  I checked and "wyvernstalegames.com" does not appear to have been taken.


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## Dedekind

How committed are they to the name? I agree that Wyvern's Tale may not sound like a boardgame-focused store.


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## freeAgent

That is mighty unfriendly.  One problem with picking a name similar to one of the ones they've registered is that they could redirect traffic from people who meant to go to your friend's site to their own.

I would just make sure that your friend point out how awful this Hillside place is behaving as much as possible.  This sort of behavior is dishonest and is bad for everyone.


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## Mark CMG

Start a new rumor each week about what name is going to be used but keep the new real name secret.  Let the other store waste it's time, energy and money chasing phantoms.  But, remember, the best way to get back at petty people is to ignore them and live your live well.


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## gamerprinter

I don't do much web design anymore, but when I did, and was actively looking for better ways for small business to market themselves online, I've come to the conclusion that whatever the name of the actual store, the website needn't be named the same as the store itself. It is far better to choose a domain name that points to the product that you sell.

Usually the best one's are taken, but if you were selling boardgames as the primary product carried, boardgames.com would be the best choice, no matter what the store is actually called.

When you show up to the site, there should be a banner at the top declaring the name of the game shop, so search engine users can identify you specifically - especially if you are in close proximity to be local customers.

I recently built a website for a local farm that produces grass fed beef (no hormone feeding) and they asked me to secure the domain - kaforskifarms.com. I told them that that was a poor choice, as who is going to look for kaforski, ever? It would be far smarter to choose grassfedbeef.com - which they told me was already taken. So I did a search and found illinoisgrassfedbeef.com was available. Since they are targetting Chicago based clients, this would be a good choice. So it's what they got for a domain.

As long as the name of the company is a keyword phrase that is mentioned and repeated often on the first page, searches for your specific company name in your specific community will point to whatever domain you've chosen.

If a competitor of mine tried to pull such a maneuver, I would laugh at the waste of money they spent on trying to do such a thing. They obviously aren't experienced marketers otherwise they'd know what they did would do nothing to prevent me from successfully marketing my company online.

I wouldn't worry about it, just find a more generic name that points to your product or your community and product, and not try to match your company name, at least not for a domain.

The other tip I'll give you. Once you've built your website and uploaded it into your host and it is active. Place a signature of your company website, with your account here at ENWorld. You don't have to directly market your new company, rather just post in a thread, like this thread, as you would normally post questions, etc. As long as your signature is with your post. Your website will be indexed by Google in 24 hours.

If you submit a request for your site to be indexed by Google through their normal channels, it may take 3 to 6 months to get listed in Google. When I first opened gamer-printshop.com, I came here and changed my signature (as you can see at the bottom of my post) and I was listed in Google and Yahoo in under 24 hours (and on page 1 of the search engines).


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## Mark CMG

gamerprinter said:


> I don't do much web design anymore, but when I did, and was actively looking for better ways for small business to market themselves online, I've come to the conclusion that whatever the name of the actual store, the website needn't be named the same as the store itself. It is far better to choose a domain name that points to the product that you sell.
> 
> Usually the best one's are taken, but if you were selling boardgames as the primary product carried, boardgames.com would be the best choice, no matter what the store is actually called.
> 
> When you show up to the site, there should be a banner at the top declaring the name of the game shop, so search engine users can identify you specifically - especially if you are in close proximity to be local customers.
> 
> I recently built a website for a local farm that produces grass fed beef (no hormone feeding) and they asked me to secure the domain - kaforskifarms.com. I told them that that was a poor choice, as who is going to look for kaforski, ever? It would be far smarter to choose grassfedbeef.com - which they told me was already taken. So I did a search and found illinoisgrassfedbeef.com was available. Since they are targetting Chicago based clients, this would be a good choice. So it's what they got for a domain.
> 
> As long as the name of the company is a keyword phrase that is mentioned and repeated often on the first page, searches for your specific company name in your specific community will point to whatever domain you've chosen.
> 
> If a competitor of mine tried to pull such a maneuver, I would laugh at the waste of money they spent on trying to do such a thing. They obviously aren't experienced marketers otherwise they'd know what they did would do nothing to prevent me from successfully marketing my company online.





Good advice!




gamerprinter said:


> I wouldn't worry about, just find a more generic name that points to your product or your community and product, and not try to match your company name, at least not for a domain.





And keep it secret until it is secured.


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## the Jester

I just posted a question about this on the other store's Facebook page.

EDIT: Though I expect that they'll take it down right quick, if their ethics are at all consistent.


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## freeAgent

the Jester said:


> I just posted a question about this on the other store's Facebook page.
> 
> EDIT: Though I expect that they'll take it down right quick, if their ethics are at all consistent.




I don't see it so they're either very quick or the page moderates posts so they have to approve them first or something.


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## kitsune9

Mark CMG said:


> Start a new rumor each week about what name is going to be used but keep the new real name secret.  Let the other store waste it's time, energy and money chasing phantoms.  But, remember, the best way to get back at petty people is to ignore them and live your live well.




I agree. The new owner should know what he's dealing with now, so keep his cards close to his chest and don't play them until he's ready.


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## Nareau

freeAgent said:


> I don't see it so they're either very quick or the page moderates posts so they have to approve them first or something.



I thought the same thing at first, before realizing you have to click Everyone to see other people's posts to their wall.  https://www.facebook.com/HillsideGames?sk=wall&filter=1

Also, in case the screenshot is hard to read, here's the WHOIS record.
http://www.networksolutions.com/whois-search/thewyvernstale.com


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## Alzrius

This other store really sounds like it's being run by a bunch of jerks. I can't offer a solution on how to get the domain names away from them, but I definitely think he should, whatever route he goes.


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## Aeolius

Have your friend put up banners: "Coming Soon: Sidehill Games - Best Selection of Board Games in Town!" and see what the other folks do.   

To a gamer, Wyvern's Tale sounds like a tavern. How many non-gamers know what a wyvern is, anyway? Draw folks in with a common reference or a board game they know, then expand their knowledge base.

and now I want to open a small store that sells nothing but dice, just so I can name it "Die!"

Edit: if the really like the name, drop the "the" to make "Wyvern's Tale" or drop the "s" to make "Wyvern Tale". Beat them at their own game.


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## Desdichado

I'd got for ashevilleboardgames.com or something like that (or whatever town it's in.)  Register it now, and put a coming soon! message on it, then build the site at your leisure later.  Something that's more practical than wyvernstale.com anyway, and you can still name the store Wyvern's Tale if you want.

Although, as has been mentioned by several, that name hardly says "board games" to me.  I'd rethink that name.


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## nerfherder

Hobo said:


> I'd got for ashevilleboardgames.com or something like that (or whatever town it's in.)  Register it now, and put a coming soon! message on it, then build the site at your leisure later.  Something that's more practical than wyvernstale.com anyway, and you can still name the store Wyvern's Tale if you want.
> 
> Although, as has been mentioned by several, that name hardly says "board games" to me.  I'd rethink that name.




I keep reading the site name as Wyvern Stale dot com, so another name might not be a bad idea.


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## gamerprinter

nerfherder said:


> I keep reading the site name as Wyvern Stale dot com




Me too.


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## Dice4Hire

Just  ki... er... engage them and take all their ..st... I mean customers.


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## catsclaw227

I have done quite a bit of SEO in my years and in my opinion, Wyvern's Tale is a terrible name for a game store.  It should be something like [Anytown] Games or [Anytown] Fun and Games, or Westside Games or East Illinois Games, [Anytown] Gaming Paradise or [Anytown] Gamer's Best or something like that.

It should be a call to action and the purpose of the store should be obvious.

Once he gets his name decided, don't tell anyone and find domain names. Then register for your DBA.  Once this is done, go try to open up the store.  Even if you can't get the brick and mortar up, you can still start selling online and get hooked up with a games distributorship or two.


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## was

change tale to tail....then copyright the name


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## Halivar

was said:


> change tale to tail....then copyright the name



Can't copyright names, and trademarks are a tad bit expensive.


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## web.geek

Halivar said:


> Can't copyright names, and trademarks are a tad bit expensive.




Not too expensive, if you are serious about protecting your name/brand. I've trademarked a logo before for $275 and there were options available for less than that. Check out Trademark Registration - Filing a Trademark & Application Services | LegalZoom.com (not a plug, it's just where I got mine).


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## Morrus

Cybersquatting is never cool; even less so when done by supposed "friendly" local game stores.  I'd urge people to post on the Facebook page.  If you follow me on Twitter, please consider retweeting me.  With luck they might change their mind.


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## Nareau

And now they're threatening legal action for "libel".  Ah, gotta love the Internet.


> We have been contacted by the management of Hillside Games. They are threatening now to sue us for libel, unless we remove all related posts and make a public apology for our actions.
> 
> We have thought about it, and debated about whether we should comply. We have been emotional, we admit. Perhaps even inflammatory, at times. We have decided to remove some of our more inflammatory remarks, and we do apologize for that behavior.
> 
> Libel is a serious charge, but at its core, it requires that we told a lie, an untruth. Our claims were not only true, they have evidence. The WHOIS information of a domain name is public information, and right there in black and white, you can see that the domains corresponding to our business name have been registered by Hillside Games. The day after we announced our plan to do business.
> 
> So then, the question remains: Do we apologize unconditionally? Do we give in to fear, and offer a feeble apology, for sharing the truth? We have decided...absolutely not. The truth is the truth, and that can never change. Two plus two equals four, and there will always be four lights (Bonus points to those of you who get that).
> 
> In the spirit of being cautious, however, we have elected that we will leave their Facebook page alone. We have also decided that when we speak or write on this matter, henceforth, we will only provide facts. The facts are thus:
> 
> -On 07 February 2012, The Wyvern's Tale LLC was formed in the State of North Carolina.
> 
> -On 17 February 2012, The Wyvern's Tale LLC, through the medium of Facebook, announced its intentions to do business as The Wyvern's Tale in Asheville.
> 
> -On 18 February 2012, Hillside Games, Inc. registered www.thewyvenrstale.com, .net, .org, .us, .mobi, .info.
> 
> -On 27 February 2012, The Wyvern's Tale LLC, through the medium of Facebook, announced that Hillside Games, Inc registered the aforementioned domain names on the aforementioned date. Let the record show that these announcements did contain some emotional language.
> 
> -On 28 February 2012, the Chief Financial Officer of Hillside Games, Inc. contacted the proprietors of The Wyvern's Tale LLC and demanded that all related posts be removed from Facebook and that The Wyvern's Tale LLC issue a public, written apology, lest they bring suit for libel.
> 
> Further:
> 
> -The registration of a domain name corresponding to a competing business's trademark in order to profit by or disrupt their business is against the ICANN'S Uniform Domain Name Resolution Policy, and against the Anticybersquatting Consumer Protection Act.
> 
> Those are the facts. We pledge to do no more than make these publicly available.
> 
> What you make of these facts, dear Readers, and what you do with them, is up to you.


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## On Puget Sound

I just posted this on Hillside Games' Facebook page.  I expect it won't last long; feel free to repost it if it amuses you:

This Sunday, come and playtest CYBERSQUATTING!  Players compete to steal each others' domain names in this fast-paced Euro-style board game.  Available exclusively at Hillside Games ( juvenilebehavior.com  )


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## web.geek

When I visit http://thewyvernstale.com, it redirects to Miniature Art by Bethany. That site appears to be "Miniature Painting by Bethany."


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## freeAgent

That's ridiculous.  Instead of apologizing and offered to transfer at domains to you, they're threatening to sue for "libel" because you pointed out what they did.  I am not a lawyer, but I say screw 'em.  It sounds like you have a much better case for them violating ICANN's policy and the Anticybersquatting Consumer Protection Act than they have for libel.


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## frankthedm

Good luck dealing with this. Would say more, but most of my suggestions  _might_ not be 100% legal.


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## MajPepper

Hello all, I am one of the co-proprietors of The Wyvern's Tale. I would like to first thank everyone for their supportive and helpful replies. 

Regarding our name, while it is true that the original store we are buying out had a focus on board games (and we intend to continue that focus) we are both avid role-players and want to support the very under-supported role-playing community in our area. To that end, we have decided upon the name of The Wyvern's Tale to evoke the sense of a fantasy tavern. It may not be immediately recognized by many non-gamers, we believe the name and our signage will be intriguing enough to draw in foot-traffic. SEO has never factored into our priorities as we do not intend to do web sales. Our focus is entirely local and we will be networking to that end. 

But again, I'm very appreciative of your comments, and in any event, we do not believe we have committed any wrong in bringing these events to light. 

They now seem to be redirecting it to www.wyvernstale.com, a page to which I know they have no connection, as I had seen it earlier in my research of web pages.


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## TarionzCousin

Can they start a Kickstarter project to raise $1000 to file a complaint? I would contribute to that.

Personally, I would pretend my store was called "Pig Pen is Gaming" and hope that the other store registered that domain name.


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## Morrus

Apparently I'm now banned form posting to Hillside Games' facebook page. I tried to post the definition of libel for them (in the most helpful way, of course) but got a message saying I could not post to that wall.

_*Libel (dfn):* There are several ways a person must go about proving that libel has taken place. For example, in the United States, the person first must prove that the statement was false._​Is it just me, or has the "Everyone" posts tab now disappeared?


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## Nareau

TarionzCousin said:


> Can they start a Kickstarter project to raise $1000 to file a complaint? I would contribute to that.



Heh, I suggested the same thing.  But Kickstarter seems to be focused on raising money for creative endeavours, so this probably wouldn't fly.

Also, in case I wasn't clear in my OP--I'm not affiliated with either store in any way.  I care about the gaming scene in my town, and I know one of the owners of The Wyvern Stale.

You have no idea how hard it is to keep fresh Wyvern on the shelves.

Edit to add:  I hope Bethany gets some sales from this whole fiasco.  At least then something productive will have come out of it!


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## Aeolius

Morrus said:


> Is it just me, or has the "Everyone" posts tab now disappeared?




Yep. It's gone for me, as well. What a bunch of cotton headed ninny muggins.

EDIT: gee, and now my reply (and yours) to their Sealed Deck post have vanished... and for some reason I cannot reply to their posts


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## Aeolius

MajPepper said:


> Hello all, I am one of the co-proprietors of The Wyvern's Tale. I would like to first thank everyone for their supportive and helpful replies.




This is EN World. "You mess with one of us, you mess with all of us." (with all due respect to Spider-Man, of course)


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## Morrus

MajPepper said:


> Hello all, I am one of the co-proprietors of The Wyvern's Tale. I would like to first thank everyone for their supportive and helpful replies.
> 
> Regarding our name, while it is true that the original store we are buying out had a focus on board games (and we intend to continue that focus) we are both avid role-players and want to support the very under-supported role-playing community in our area. To that end, we have decided upon the name of The Wyvern's Tale to evoke the sense of a fantasy tavern. It may not be immediately recognized by many non-gamers, we believe the name and our signage will be intriguing enough to draw in foot-traffic. SEO has never factored into our priorities as we do not intend to do web sales. Our focus is entirely local and we will be networking to that end.
> 
> But again, I'm very appreciative of your comments, and in any event, we do not believe we have committed any wrong in bringing these events to light.
> 
> They now seem to be redirecting it to www.wyvernstale.com, a page to which I know they have no connection, as I had seen it earlier in my research of web pages.




You're welcome.  The RPG community is fractured and shrinking enough as it is without needing these sorts of people in it.  If they are stupid enough to try to sue you, let me know; I'm sure we can help.


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## TreChriron

Look for a Legal Shield rep in your area (just get on the site) and get your hands on some inexpensive legal representation. Yes, it's a MLM thing however, I think the service is superb. They don't cover "pre-existing" legal situations, however the discount DOES apply as soon as you sign up. I pay $30.00 a month for legal coverage. It's the best investment I've made for my peace of mind.

In the short term, find a substitute name, register that DNS and then you can point the others to yours when you win them from your competitors.


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## MajPepper

Morrus said:


> You're welcome.  The RPG community is fractured and shrinking enough as it is without needing these sorts of people in it.  If they are stupid enough to try to sue you, let me know; I'm sure we can help.




Thanks again! It's our belief and hope that this is just posturing on their part, but we'll keep everyone apprised of the situation.


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## Morrus

MajPepper said:


> It's our belief and hope that this is just posturing on their part




It is.  Don't worry.


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## On Puget Sound

After my wall post was taken down, i could still post in "recommendations" on the right edge of the page.


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## Morrus

On Puget Sound said:


> After my wall post was taken down, i could still post in "recommendations" on the right edge of the page.




Good tip!  I wonder if they can delete those, too?


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## Aeolius

Morrus said:


> Good tip!  I wonder if they can delete those, too?




Let's find out.


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## the Jester

Hmmm, is their FB page gone now or is it just me?


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## On Puget Sound

I can't see it at all.  Either they can block individuals (I expect there is a setting for that) or they've decided to take the whole page down while they figure out how to handle the situation they've created.


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## InkwellIdeas

If things are close to what you described it sounds similar to what carrierIQ tried to do a couple months ago to a security researcher who discovered carrierIQ's software was tracking users' activities in a lot of detail, IIRC.  They tried to make him apologize and take it back.  He found a lawyer and/or went to the EFF.  Here was the EFF's response: https://www.eff.org/sites/default/files/eckhart_c%26d_response.pdf 

CarrierIQ publicly apologized TO HIM a couple days later.  Not sure if you'd get their (EFF) interest, but it is definitely worth calling a few lawyers and seeing what they'd suggest/charge for a meeting and response letter on your behalf.


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## TarionzCousin

Nareau said:


> Heh, I suggested the same thing.  But Kickstarter seems to be focused on raising money for creative endeavours, so this probably wouldn't fly.



Arent you website-capable? Could you build a website that takes donations? I bet we could get some good cash simply redirecting from here.


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## Morrus

On Puget Sound said:


> I can't see it at all. Either they can block individuals (I expect there is a setting for that) or they've decided to take the whole page down while they figure out how to handle the situation they've created.




I can see the page just fine.  They've deleted any negative comments, closed public posting, disallowed replies on the news wall, and deleted the posts that people put in the "recommendations from friends" box, but the page is still there.


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## catsclaw227

I can see the "recommendations".  Mine is there on the front.  "I can't recommend..."

https://www.facebook.com/HillsideGames


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## On Puget Sound

I also admin a (non-gaming) business page, and the recommendations do have a "hide" function admins can use.  So I guess the admin simply hasn't noticed them yet.


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## Morrus

catsclaw227 said:


> I can see the "recommendations". Mine is there on the front. "I can't recommend..."
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/HillsideGames




There were about 12 on this issue.  Can you see them all (including mine)?

I can see my own, but that's all.  So I'm wondering if they found a setting which hides the others, but not yours, so that you think they haven't deleted them?


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## Crothian

When I click on the public button on the recommendations I can see them all.


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## catsclaw227

Morrus said:


> There were about 12 on this issue.  Can you see them all (including mine)?
> 
> I can see my own, but that's all.  So I'm wondering if they found a setting which hides the others, but not yours, so that you think they haven't deleted them?



I see 3 on the home page and "See All" link that lets me see all 12 of them, yours included. Actually, right now, I see yours on their home page. (Though I think this is a random rotation...)


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## freeAgent

catsclaw227 said:


> I see 3 on the home page and "See All" link that lets me see all 12 of them, yours included. Actually, right now, I see yours on their home page. (Though I think this is a random rotation...)




Facebook still claims there are 12 recommendations, but only 3 are public, and they're the positive ones.  There's always Yelp...


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## catsclaw227

The public ones are random.  I am seeing 2 negative and one positive right now.


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## On Puget Sound

"only 3 recommendations are public", though 11 exist.  i can still see mine, but no other negative ones.

I don't blame them for scrubbing their page - it's their page after all.  I just hope they get the message and reconsider their behavior.


----------



## catsclaw227

On Puget Sound said:


> "only 3 recommendations are public", though 11 exist.  i can still see mine, but no other negative ones.
> 
> I don't blame them for scrubbing their page - it's their page after all.  I just hope they get the message and reconsider their behavior.




You guys don't have a "See All" link?  The ones on the home page are randomized, if you go back and check in 2 hours, they will be different.


----------



## Fate Lawson

Oh man, talk about a great opportunity for free public exposure! This sounds like a story for your local papers local business section. "Hillside Games plays Sauron to Wyverns Tale's Frodo". 

Seriously, contact the local news outlet and lay out your side of the conflict clearly and factually. Point out the tactics they are employeeing, and see if that doesn't generate at least a couple of articles in the paper. Free exposure for you now, and  follow up article later when you finally open the doors.


----------



## prosfilaes

*Popular RPG books of 2011 (as per LibraryThing)*

Whoops; ignore the title, I posted in the wrong window.

In any case, what I meant to say, is that I don't think it's worth going head to head with them unless they push it. Be polite, be disdainful (while being polite) of their libel claim, take a domain name they haven't, and go ahead with your plans.


----------



## El Mahdi

I've been to Asheville before on a TDY for mountain training.  My wife even drove up to see me for a couple of days (from Valdosta, GA).  We've thought about maybe buying a vacation spot there someday.  I'll certainly remember this store though.  You can guarantee Hillside Games won't be getting any support from me, and I'll be sure to point people to this thread/article in perpetuity.

They tried to use the internet to gain an unfair advantage.  Well, Live by the Internet...Die by the Internet.

I think Wyverns Tale should get a lawyer and explore their options.  But no matter how it turns out, the word has already been spread, and that won't disappear.

This was a majorly foolish miscalculation on your part, Hillside Games.  Shame on You.


----------



## Vyvyan Basterd

Add another voice of support from me. I saw the underhanded tactics that plagued a friend of mine back in the late eighties. Just stay positive and don't stoop to their level. My friend's store is still in business after 40+ years and the jerk store barely made it out of the 80's. He had to endure anonymous tips to the local police that he was allowing gambling in his back room and serving alcohol to minors. The jerks also alerted local church leaders when they discovered that he opened the game clubroom, not the store proper, on Easter Sunday for Navy guys who were unable to go home for the holiday, leading to picketing of his store for basically blasphemy. Plus a bunch of other crap they tried to pull, badmouthing his store to anyone who walked in their door, etc. I'm sure they would have pulled something like this if the internet had been around back then.


----------



## Aberzanzorax

I don't know much about Facebook, but what would it take to message the people who "like" Hillside Games and link them to this news story?


----------



## Bethany

*Wyvern's Tale*

Posting this just so everyone knows I am in no way affiliated with Hillside Games, nor do I condone what they are doing.
My website, wyvernstale.com has been active for years and it is where I conduct my miniature painting services.

Thank you,
Bethany


----------



## Morrus

Bethany said:


> Posting this just so everyone knows I am in no way affiliated with Hillside Games, nor do I condone what they are doing.
> My website, wyvernstale.com has been active for years and it is where I conduct my miniature painting services.
> 
> Thank you,
> Bethany




I don't think anybody thought you had anything to do with it.  I wonder why they redirected it to your site, though?


----------



## Bethany

Morrus said:


> I don't think anybody thought you had anything to do with it.  I wonder why they redirected it to your site, though?




No sure exactly.  But I don't mind the extra traffic here and there.  And it's nice to have my art seen by more than just a few.  

B


----------



## InkwellIdeas

You could always redirect (or put a prominent banner) to here...  MWUH-HA-HA-HA!


----------



## Aeolius

Bethany said:


> No sure exactly.  But I don't mind the extra traffic here and there.  And it's nice to have my art seen by more than just a few.    B




Exquisite work on Reaper Fairy. She's too cute!    (I see you're using iWeb, there... a pity Apple has discontinued support for that one. I had to learn a little WordPress in a hurry, before the June MobileMe deadline)


----------



## frankthedm

Morrus said:


> I don't think anybody thought you had anything to do with it.  I wonder why they redirected it to your site, though?



Plausible deniability?


----------



## Morrus

frankthedm said:


> Plausible deniability?




Not very plausible or deniable when we have screenshots of the WHOIS query.


----------



## FickleGM

Bethany said:


> Posting this just so everyone knows I am in no way affiliated with Hillside Games, nor do I condone what they are doing.
> My website, wyvernstale.com has been active for years and it is where I conduct my miniature painting services.
> 
> Thank you,
> Bethany



What an awesome random find as a result of this series of events.  I'm going to have to share it with my wife, who loves painted minis and such (she does the paint-and-take at GenCon almost every year).


----------



## epochrpg

How about naming it "Better Than Hillside Games".


----------



## 82dcustomer

I just read this whole thread.  I live in the surrounding area and I hate that they are doing this.  I used to patronize that store back when I played Pirates pocket models.

There is a lawyer in Marion, NC, which is about 30 minutes East of Asheville, by the name of Krynn Evans.  He has been a gamer for over 20 years and may be willing to help out with some advice.  That is about the best I can do since I stopped shopping there years ago.


----------



## Warunsun

It is terrible that the store owners are harassing the gentleman     trying to open his game store. It is in incredibly poor taste in a     lot of ways and I am certain it is illegal in more than one way. The     economy is always challenging for game store owners especially folks     getting into the business brand new. The best thing he could do is     ignore them and ask others to do the same.  He is going to be     spending lots of money just to get his own new store running and     doesn't need to be bothered by any tangential legal fees. The     harassing store owner from the other side of town is definitely in     the wrong but it would cost money to prove it and really isn't worth     it. Lawyers make all the money in these situations and not the store  owners. Save your money for your business. Keep your chin up new  entrepreneur and good luck on your new business.


----------



## KesselZero

1. If I ever get over to visit my friends in Asheville, I'll be shopping at Wyvern's Tale (or whatever the name ends up being) out of principle.

2. The real wyvernstale.com is pretty awesome.


----------



## Sebastrd

If anyone's curious, here's some email traffic between myself and Hillside games since last night.

My initial message to Hillside Games:[sblock]Dear Hillside Games,

Your recent actions with regard to The Wyvern's Tale are deplorable. Cybersquatting on your competitors' domain name may have seemed a clever tactic initially, but I hope you have realized by now that it was extremely short-sighted, not to mention illegal. However, attempting to silence the resulting outcry from the community is even worse. And threatening to sue for libel is nothing short of ludicrous. Might I suggest that at your earliest possible convenience you:

1) Make a public and heartfelt apology for you are most definitely in the wrong
2) Make arrangements to relinquish your claim to your competitors' domain names
3) Hire competent legal council to advise you on the niceties of such legal terms as libel

I can assure you that at this point I will never do business with your establishment. Please, do not have a nice day.[/sblock]

Their reply:[sblock]I appreciate your comments over email instead of my Facebook page.  Allowing for more than a business day to deal with such matters is frequently necessary.  As matters proceed forward please note that according to ICANN policy domain names can not be released for 60 days after registration.  We are not ignoring the issue, I can assure you.  However this barrage of attacks is serving to do nothing except inflame a situation that was actually going to be resolved quite peacefully before this all began had we been given more than 1 business day to respond to the initial message.  The barrage of emails and Facebook messages I/we have received have been both threatening and harassing. 

You however seem to be a competent and reasonable Individual.  I am sure that my reply to you will be relayed back.  If this barrage of attacks stops on our pages we will be able to enter into a proper discourse with the individual's that we actually need to talk with.  

Hillside Games[/sblock]

My reply, and probably end of the coversation:[sblock]Amanda,

I appreciate your reply, and can very much appreciate your situation. I'm sure the rapidity and intensity of the response was unexpected and overwhelming. I sincerely hope that you find a way to resolve the situation.[/sblock]


----------



## Lwaxy

Amazing to what length people go to eliminate competition that is none.


----------



## reapersaurus

I read the thread on BGG that referred here -  my sympathies to the store owners for having jerk cybersquatters get in the way of their store duties.

Maybe this has been mentioned before, but if you're trying to invoke a fantasy tavern, why not use the name Wyvern's Tavern?


----------



## Nareau

Sebastrd said:


> Their reply: Allowing for more than a business day to deal with such matters is frequently necessary.



In the time it took them to write that email, they could have written instead, "We realize we made a mistake registering those domains, and are working to resolve the situation with The Wyvern's Tale."  It doesn't take a day to apologize.


----------



## skinnydwarf

Maybe they don't want to make a public apology, because they think that would be bad PR, and draw attention to the story to people who haven't heard it already.  Maybe they just want to give the domains back and hope it goes away.  Once they give the domains back word will trickle around that they've now done the right thing. /rampant speculation


----------



## Aeolius

All I know is that I want to travel from Greensboro to Asheville, for a butter beer and game at the Wyvern's Tale.... or tail... or whatever.


----------



## Morrus

Thanks for relaying this, <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention -->@Sebastrd <!-- END TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention -->



			
				Hillside Games said:
			
		

> I appreciate your comments over email instead of my Facebook page. Allowing for more than a business day to deal with such matters is frequently necessary. As matters proceed forward please note that according to ICANN policy domain names can not be released for 60 days after registration. We are not ignoring the issue, I can assure you. However this barrage of attacks is serving to do nothing except inflame a situation that was actually going to be resolved quite peacefully before this all began had we been given more than 1 business day to respond to the initial message. The barrage of emails and Facebook messages I/we have received have been both threatening and harassing.
> 
> You however seem to be a competent and reasonable Individual. I am sure that my reply to you will be relayed back. If this barrage of attacks stops on our pages we will be able to enter into a proper discourse with the individual's that we actually need to talk with.
> 
> Hillside Games




What an interesting reply, though!

*It takes more than one business day to respond?* 

No, it takes approximately 5 minutes to pick up the phone and apologize and offfer to hand over the domain names. 

No offence, guys. You're a game store, not Hasbro. Amanda, have a quick chat with Nate if you really feel you have to, but it doesn't take much. It'll take less time than it took you to write that reply to Sebastrd, above - I don't think The Wyvern's Tale folks will want to hang on the phone and chat for an hour about the weather.

*However this barrage of attacks is serving to do nothing except inflame a situation that was actually going to be resolved quite peacefully before this all began had we been given more than 1 business day to respond to the initial message.* 

This is remarkably disingenous. It _wasn't_ going to be resolved peacefully until we all got involved. If it hadn't been reported in the news, nothing would have happened. Here's the timeline:

On *18 February 2012*, Hillside Games, Inc. registered www.thewyvenrstale.com, .net, .org, .us, .mobi, .info.
-On *27 February 2012*, The Wyvern's Tale LLC, through the medium of Facebook, announced that Hillside Games, Inc registered the aforementioned domain names on the aforementioned date. Let the record show that these announcements did contain some emotional language.
-On *28 February 2012*, the Chief Financial Officer of Hillside Games, Inc. contacted the proprietors of The Wyvern's Tale LLC and demanded that all related posts be removed from Facebook and that The Wyvern's Tale LLC issue a public, written apology, lest they bring suit for libel.
So The Wyvern's Tale told us (as in the public) what happened* 9 days* after the event. Not one day, but nine days. And thenthe very next day, Hillside Gamesthreatened them with a lawsuit. So they had their "one business day", and they used it to threaten a frivolous lawsuit. If one day is enough time to threaten a lawsuit, it's enough time to pick up a phone and say sorry. It's now the* 29th February*, the day after their threat. What "message" are they waiting to respond to? They've responded. With a threat. 
As for the "constant barrage of attacks" - here's a good rule of thumb; perhaps they could write it down somewhere so they don't forget:

*If you don't want people to criticize you for doing bad things, don't do bad things.* 

The people criticizing you aren't the ones in the wrong. You don't get to blame them for your actions.

_[Edit - I had a list of suggestions here for how to fix the situation, but it's really The Wyvern's Take's place to make those requests, not mine.]_


----------



## Lwaxy

Indeed. It is a matter of principle. If our local store would pull anything like that I guess I'd only order online anymore.


----------



## catsclaw227

Now I see that they have blocked all recommendations and made all the bad ones not public.

Why haven't they posted something on their wall about this to quell bad publicity.  Asheville is a liberal, hip kind of town in Western NC, and I bet that local media would run something about this if they were pressed to.

News 13 - WLOS
News #: 800-288-2413
Email: comments@wlos.com
Feedback form: WLOS ABC13 :: Station Info

Asheville Citizen-Times:
Letter to the Editor: Submit a Letter to the Editor | The Asheville Citizen-Times | citizen-times.com
Business Section: http://www.citizen-times.com/section/business
Local News: Local News | The Asheville Citizen-Times | citizen-times.com


----------



## the Jester

Emailed the local news and sent them a link to this article/thread.


----------



## Dykstrav

I've actually been to Hillside Games... Once. When I was in Asheville for work last year, I stopped in there on a day off.

The person working the counter was pretty rude and we actually had some words about it. I almost returned my purchases, but decided to just not visit there again. I've heard mixed things about the store from some of my friends in Asheville, but never really worried too much about it--after all, it's not like Asheville is local for me. I don't really know the people at the store, but based on this and my own experience there, I'm not surprised at a move like this.

I can say this for sure, however: I'm going to the Wyvern's Tale when they open, on the first day if I can manage it, and I'm buying twice as much stuff there as I did at Hillside games.


----------



## MajPepper

reapersaurus said:


> Maybe this has been mentioned before, but if you're trying to invoke a fantasy tavern, why not use the name Wyvern's Tavern?




Just to address that for a moment, we want to evoke the feel of the kind of tavern you might hear about in a fantasy game (And thus recognizable by gamers), but we don't want to actually use the term tavern, as that would definitely lead to people assuming we were a real tavern.

I'd like to once again thank everyone for their support. As a minor update, we have yet to hear anything since, and the only news I have is the above email from Hillside Games. They have not contacted us directly We are trying to minimize any liabilities, so we will be as unemotional as possible in our public statements. However, we'd like to point out the following things.

Yes, we goofed in not registering our domain early. We have learned our lesson. That does not make this practice ethical.

We did not give Hillside Games more than 1 "business" day before publicizing the information. However, the information was already public. Any one in the world with a connection to the internet can look up a WHOIS registry.

I cannot speak for the schedule of the management at Hillside Games. It may very well take them more than 1 business day to respond to an email. However, it takes approximately 0 days to not register a competitor's domain. I don't think I would be libelous in stating that. 

Additionally, they mentioned that some of the response has been threatening and/or harassing. I cannot speak to that, as none of the public responses I have seen on their page (which have now been deleted) seemed threatening to me (other than the threat to no longer do business with them). I definitely have no insight about what has been emailed to them. I will say that neither I, my partner, nor our company condone any threats or acts of physical or verbal abuse. We do not wish harm upon anyone, least of all someone who provides a service to part of the gaming community. 

Finally, they have yet to make any statements in defense of their own actions. I am more than willing to hear their side of the argument. As I said to them in an email I sent yesterday: if they believe their actions to be defensible, then I urge them to defend them. Why did they think that registering our domain names (regardless of legality) was an ethical thing to do, and that it would be looked kindly upon by the community? If they have good reason, I will listen.


----------



## bouncyhead

MajPepper said:


> I'd like to once again thank everyone for their support.




By an extraordinary coincidence, I'm over from the UK in a few weeks and in Asheville on 2nd April. Where can I find you? I must drop by and buy something!


----------



## On Puget Sound

Will either store have a booth at ConCarolinas this year?  I might want to shop at one, and ask some pointed questions at the other.


----------



## francisca

Maybe Hillside Games is running the "Stark Gambit", in attempt to be sued, so they can counter sue?  

(If you don't know what I'm talking about....don't worry, it isn't supposed to make sense or invoke a sense of logic in any way.)


----------



## catsclaw227

An article in the Examiner has popped up!

Can a game store claim its competition's web domain? - National RPG | Examiner.com


----------



## the Jester

catsclaw227 said:


> An article in the Examiner has popped up!
> 
> Can a game store claim its competition's web domain? - National RPG | Examiner.com




Nice. I forwarded a link to that article to the local press; hopefully national attention will cause the local media to pick the story up.


----------



## gamerprinter

catsclaw227 said:


> An article in the Examiner has popped up!
> 
> Can a game store claim its competition's web domain? - National RPG | Examiner.com




Heh, I was quoted in that article.


----------



## Silver Moon

Interesting story!   I do agree with earlier posters, that a name change would be the best solution.   From a marketing perspective, Wyvern's Tale might not be the best for a game focused in boardgames.   However, as a fan of justice and karma, I would like to see how this impacts the petty offender.


----------



## catsclaw227

I think Wyvern's Tale is a neat name, but for a game store, there are much better ones.   And for a website domain name, it's even worse.  It does very little to help with your marketing, and from an Search Engine Optimization (SEO) standpoint it's awful.

I still don't get why a name like "Asheville Games" or "Asheville Gamers Paradise" isn't a better fit.  Only D&D or fantasy geeks will get "The Wyvern's Tale".  

Don't you want "regular" people to wander in and see what it's all about?  Especially if the property is in a small corner strip, a stripmall with a grocery store anchor, or especially a stand-alone building.

I recall that our local FLGS originally wanted to be called something like Goblin's Den but they changed their name right away to All Fun 'n Games and they have been very happy about it since then, as they get random people coming in and see kids playing MtG and decided that maybe their kids might like it too.


----------



## gamerprinter

catsclaw227 said:


> I think Wyvern's Tale is a neat name, but for a game store, there are much better ones. And for a website domain name, it's even worse. It does very little to help with your marketing, and from an Search Engine Optimization (SEO) standpoint it's awful.
> 
> I still don't get why a name like "Asheville Games" or "Asheville Gamers Paradise" isn't a better fit. Only D&D or fantasy geeks will get "The Wyvern's Tale".




I'd go as far as calling it a terrible name for a gaming company.

However, the company in question has already filed the name as a corporation (LLC) to North Carolina, and if it's anything like filing for a corporation name in Illinois - it has already cost them a substantial fee to do this already.

I think it's a bit too late to change their corporate name, due to the cost that has already been spent.

Again, back to my first post on this on page one. Corporate name filed or not, the domain name best for them, would be asheville-boardgames.com, so it wouldn't matter either way.

Though I almost wish the company had posted here with a question like, "What should we call our gaming shop?" and they'd have been better off doing so - but it's too late for that...


----------



## Lwaxy

I don't think it that bad a name, maybe add something like "Fun Games for Everyone" under it.


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## MajPepper

I'd like to address the issue of our store name once more, perhaps with some finality. Do not get us wrong, we very much appreciate all the advice we have been given. But for many reasons, both personal and practical, we are committed to the name The Wyvern's Tale.

Practically speaking, The Wyvern's Tale is the legal name of our LLC. Changing it now would not be easy, and a DBA is also out of the question at the moment. We have too many connections already established with this name.

One reason that I, personally, like the name is that I tire of game stores that are "______ Games", or some variant of that. Perhaps it gets a point across, but we want to get another point across. That we are not just a business providing a product. We are a place, a location, a destination, for people to come together and share their love of games, to play games, and to meet new gamers. A sense of community is very important to us, and the people in the local community we have spoken with thus far have all been very happy with the name. The wyvern has a long history in heraldry and European myth. As a seller of traditional games, we want a symbol of tradition.

The sense of community (and our lack of websales) is one of the reasons that SEO is barely in the margins of our concerns. We want to network locally, and we want word of mouth. We already have a dedicated following, as the previous store (Blitzkrieg Games) is being very cooperative and telling everyone all about the new operation. Even though we are not yet open, we host a weekly board game night at a local cafe. Gamers will find us, and once they do, we think they'll love our sense of atmosphere.

And as for non-gamer types, not being interested in a store with our off-the-wall name? Well, that may be a concern for many places, but not for Asheville. We are a tourist town, well-known for our "eccentricities". The tourists love to come and explore our specialty shops. Many businesses in our town have names like Cosmic Visions, Karma Sonics, and Vintage Moon. We once had a game store by the name of The Sword and Grail, and it was well-loved by all. We firmly believe our name is an attraction, not a deterrent. We will be on a high street with lots of foot traffic. We believe that when people see "The Wyvern's Tale", hand painted on a wooden sign, emblazoned with a wyvern, even if they're not gamers, they'll want to come in and see what it's all about.


An optimized name may be very marketable, but we believe that more marketable than an optimized name is a location that is dripping with amazing atmosphere, that people see and want to tell everyone they know about, and that starts with the sign outside.

Lastly, we love the play on words with tail/tale.

Again, we do not want at all to seem unappreciative, we are very grateful, for everything that has been done here. But I felt like we had to make a case for our name.

Edit: sorry about all those smilies, don't know how that happened.


----------



## Lwaxy

Well explained


----------



## catsclaw227

MajPepper said:


> I'd like to address the issue of our store name once more, perhaps with some finality. Do not get us wrong, we very much appreciate all the advice we have been given. But for many reasons, both personal and practical, we are committed to the name The Wyvern's Tale.



Understood.  I was only trying to give some help.  I didn't know you weren't interested in online sales.  One thing that might help would be to start a local gaming Meetup Group and make your store the "base of operations" or "prime meeting place".  Boardgames, Living FR or Pathfinder Society, MtG night, Warhammer Hordes, etc.  That's how I learned about our local FLGS when I moved into town.

I live in NC (Raleigh-Durham area), but my family and I might come out that way to vacation and we'll definitely stop by. 

Have you found your property yet?  How big is your gaming area going to be?  Our FLGS is like 75% gaming area, the rest is game product.  You can do a lot with good shelving.  It might help to get a local closet expert help you design your area so you can maximize your gaming area.  Our local boardgame nights are fun, as well as the RPG night.


----------



## catsclaw227

Now a local news website is running an article:

Hillside Games versus The Wyvern's Tale | Mountain Xpress | Asheville, NC


----------



## MajPepper

No problem at all! We very much appreciate it =). As for property, we do have an ideal location that we are discussing with the broker. The owners are completely overhauling it and can build to our spec. This is part of why it will take us a long as it is to open, but we feel it will be worth it. We will have somewhere from 1800-2000 square feet and hope to have at least half of that as gaming space. We got lots of great shelving and fixtures from the purchase of the other store so we think we'll be able to maximize the space very well. 

We're glad to hear you might come our way! The area is beautiful and perfect for mountain vacations, we hope to see you when you do =D


Edit: wow! Local press! We'd emailed them but weren't sure if they'd take up the story. I don't believe this would have been possible without all of your help and support. Once again, thank you everyone!


----------



## On Puget Sound

I am reminded of what happened when Burlington, Vermont's local ice cream shop/ creamery decided to try to market their handcrafted ice cream in faraway Boston.  Pillsbury, owner of the Haagen Dasz brand, leaned on the grocers in the Boston area, threatening to stop selling them Haagen Dasz if they stocked this new Vermont stuff.

Vermonters and fans of small business were outraged, and despite the lack of an internet in those days, the story went national.  Bumper stickers asking "what's the doughboy afraid of?" popped up all over New England and beyond, as the restraint of trade lawsuit against Pillsbury wound its slow way through the courts.  

Thanks to the publicity, Ben and Jerry's already had plenty of name recognition when the cash settlement from Pillsbury gave them the money to expand far, far beyond Boston.  Pillsbury's underhanded attempt to stifle their competitor actually fueled its growth.  The same thing may be happening here.


----------



## w_earle_wheeler

On one hand, we have an imaginary store, The Wyvern's [Thing], which was originally announced in September, I believe. When it didn't materialize, the folks behind it kind of ducked down for a bit. 

Now they are trying to spearhead an online word-of-mouth sympathy drive for their store... which still doesn't exist.

On the other hand, we have Hillside, which has managed to survive this long by aggressively going after any store that might remotely compete with them. I still remember  Hillside handing out flyers for their store inside another gaming store when the owner wasn't looking. Also, they run tournaments for M:TG (some kind of popular card game) with prize support. 

But now... they are trying to stick it to a store that hasn't even opened? 

I think I'll just order my drama from amazon.com at a 40% discount.


----------



## Aeolius

w_earle_wheeler said:


> On one hand, we have an imaginary store, The Wyvern's [Thing], which was originally announced in September, I believe. When it didn't materialize, the folks behind it kind of ducked down for a bit.



   Perhaps they'll be open when 5e arrives, which will be the next time I set foot in a LGS.


----------



## MajPepper

w_earle_wheeler said:


> On one hand, we have an imaginary store, The Wyvern's [Thing], which was originally announced in September, I believe. When it didn't materialize, the folks behind it kind of ducked down for a bit.
> 
> Now they are trying to spearhead an online word-of-mouth sympathy drive for their store... which still doesn't exist.
> 
> On the other hand, we have Hillside, which has managed to survive this long by aggressively going after any store that might remotely compete with them. I still remember  Hillside handing out flyers for their store inside another gaming store when the owner wasn't looking. Also, they run tournaments for M:TG (some kind of popular card game) with prize support.
> 
> But now... they are trying to stick it to a store that hasn't even opened?
> 
> I think I'll just order my drama from amazon.com at a 40% discount.




I don't know where you're getting your information, but I can conclusively say we did not announce anything in September. I wasn't even considering buying a game store in September. Blitzkrieg Games closed their doors on December 31st, 2011. They looked for buyers, and ultimately that was us. We formed our LLC on 7 February 2012, we closed the sale of inventory and assets on 17 February 2012 and made our intention do business public on the same date. 

We have spent the past two weeks packing, inventorying, and moving everything out of Blitzkrieg Games' old location. We're not trying to spearhead a sympathy drive. We just think people who do unethical things should be called out on it.


----------



## w_earle_wheeler

MajPepper said:


> I don't know where you're getting your information, but I can conclusively say we did not announce anything in September. I wasn't even considering buying a game store in September. Blitzkrieg Games closed their doors on December 31st, 2011. They looked for buyers, and ultimately that was us. We formed our LLC on 7 February 2012, we closed the sale of inventory and assets on 17 February 2012 and made our intention do business public on the same date.




I'm getting my information from the AGS mailing list. I might be off by a month or so, but I'm pretty sure that the whole Wyvern's [Thing] was announced last year. That's when someone -- I don't know if it was you or not -- posted on the AGS about how there was a building in mind already and that the store would be opening soon.

Do I really have to dig through the AGS or other Asheville Gaming lists to find the EXACT information I'm talking about? 

I mean, it _could_ conceivably be an entirely different group with the _exact_ same mission statement and goals for their store. But I want to be sure that you absolutely have _no clue_ what I am talking about before I dig through months of archives. I would hate to waste the time doing that to find out that this is just a matter of obfuscated semantic differences.

So, are you sure that what I'm saying is totally out of left field?


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## MajPepper

I'm afraid I don't even know what AGS is. We didn't even know that Blitzkrieg Games was closing until after they had done so. Our decision, or even the idea, to open a game store did not come about until this past January. I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.

I can guarantee with 100% certitude that until January, I had never considered, planned, announced or proposed opening a business of any kind, let alone a game store.


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## w_earle_wheeler

MajPepper said:


> I'm afraid I don't even know what AGS is. We didn't even know that Blitzkrieg Games was closing until after they had done so. Our decision, or even the idea, to open a game store did not come about until this past January. I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.
> 
> I can guarantee with 100% certitude that until January, I had never considered, planned, announced or proposed opening a business of any kind, let alone a game store.




OK, the place I am thinking about was going to originally be called "The Hippogriff Game Lounge" and was announced in July, 2011. It was intended to be opened around the end of September.

Since you don't know about the AGS, I absolutely believe that *I am wrong and you are a different group*, since the guy who was going to open THGL has been around the AGS (Asheville Gaming Society) before.

And I think he was also waiting to see what happened with Blitzkrieg.


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## MajPepper

Ah..alright, guess that clears that up. Sorry for any confusion. But we've no intention of disappearing, we just cleared out the last of the inventory from Blitzkrieg yesterday, and will be working diligently to open as soon as we possibly can.


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## w_earle_wheeler

MajPepper said:


> Ah..alright, guess that clears that up. Sorry for any confusion. But we've no intention of disappearing, we just cleared out the last of the inventory from Blitzkrieg yesterday, and will be working diligently to open as soon as we possibly can.




Eh, you weren't responsible for my confusion. I got all my information from wyvernstale.gov.


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## catsclaw227

w_earle_wheeler said:


> Eh, you weren't responsible for my confusion. I got all my information from wyvernstale.gov.



Seriously?  I went to that domain name and didn't find anything.  I am guessing you are being sarcastic since you can't register a .gov in the US.


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## enrious

To an outsider, it sounded very much like sardonicism, catclaw.


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## RustyHalo

w_earle_wheeler said:


> I absolutely believe that *I am wrong*





It'd be nice if Hillside were to admit its mistake as readily as you have.


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## w_earle_wheeler

RustyHalo said:


> It'd be nice if Hillside were to admit its mistake as readily as you have.




I don't know... I'm guilty of confusing a Wyvern with a Hippogryph. Hillside [is accused of] something potentially illegal.

Really, I think The Wyvern's Tale would have been much better served by going directly into legal action. Sadly, an article in the Mountain Express isn't going to do much unless it is a cover story with a cover photo. 

Then again, I _did_ read about it here on enworld before I heard about it at the comic shop, so...

Outrage over Hillside being a d*%$ won't really make a dent in his M:TG crowd -- but, if Wyvern's Tale is assertive, smart and persistent, they can re-capture the board-game / miniatures game market for the whole county. I'm not sure if The Gamer's Haunt is still focused primarily on M:TG.

That means keeping the store open during posted hours, keeping those hours regular, and having staff who will be dedicated to staying behind the counter or helping customers instead of playing games.

Blitzkrieg was a pretty cool little store -- it was clean and had good stock -- but it suffered from employees coming in late or otherwise not keeping to the posted hours. Also, the price they had to pay for rent was probably a constant knife in their eyeball -- which just adds insult to injury when a good portion of your stock goes up in price (Games Workshop) while the amount of disposable income dips a little bit.

Oh -- I just realized that, even though my name is my username, some Asheville folks might not know who I am and where I come from with all of this. Well, my name is Earle, and for a few months I worked for The Sword & Grail on the weekend. I was more of a "placeholder" employee until he could get a new "real" employee. I have also helped out Pastimes at one or two conventions, but I've never worked there, though I did sit behind the counter once when the guy working there had to go to the bathroom. During my three minute stint behind the counter I banned 32 people from the store.

I also do some work at Heroes*Con in Charlotte for a friend of mine. But not much work. 

I also used to run a D&D game at Hillside, but we kept getting shuffled around for the M:TG players. Considering how much M:TG players spend, I can't really fault them for that.

Currently, I am the CEO for a professional wrestling organization, which is kind of like LARPing except there's a good chance I will get my nose broken.


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## Lou

I am an intellectual property attorney, licensed in Texas and before the USPTO.

My free advice consistent with my legal and ethical obligations:

1. Quit posting or commenting in public about your dispute until you have adequate legal advice on your situation. Anything you post will be used against you.
2. ASAP, get competent legal advice from an attorney licensed in your jurisdiction (North Carolina), preferably one who practices in the areas of concern, such as trademark law and business law. 
3. If you don't like the advice you get from the first attorney, ask a different attorney for a second opinion.
4. If you are not going to listen to the advice of your attorneys, be prepared to suffer the legal consequences.

-Lou


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## Silver Moon

Lou said:


> I am an intellectual property attorney, licensed in Texas and before the USPTO.
> 
> My free advice consistent with my legal and ethical obligations:
> 
> 1. Quit posting or commenting in public about your dispute until you have adequate legal advice on your situation. Anything you post will be used against you.
> 2. ASAP, get competent legal advice from an attorney licensed in your jurisdiction (North Carolina), preferably one who practices in the areas of concern, such as trademark law and business law.
> 3. If you don't like the advice you get from the first attorney, ask a different attorney for a second opinion.
> 4. If you are not going to listen to the advice of your attorneys, be prepared to suffer the legal consequences.
> 
> -Lou



Sounds like good advice to me.  You may wish to follow it, and also ask Morrus to take down this thread as well as the one on the CM board.


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## Morrus

Lou said:


> I am an intellectual property attorney, licensed in Texas and before the USPTO.
> 
> My free advice consistent with my legal and ethical obligations:
> 
> 1. Quit posting or commenting in public about your dispute until you have adequate legal advice on your situation. Anything you post will be used against you.
> 2. ASAP, get competent legal advice from an attorney licensed in your jurisdiction (North Carolina), preferably one who practices in the areas of concern, such as trademark law and business law.
> 3. If you don't like the advice you get from the first attorney, ask a different attorney for a second opinion.
> 4. If you are not going to listen to the advice of your attorneys, be prepared to suffer the legal consequences.
> 
> -Lou




I think you may have overrated the legal situation. It's a marketing situation. Nobody is suing anyone, despite bluster. I bet you 10 ice cream cones that Hillside Games isn't stupid enough to start suing.


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## TarionzCousin

MajPepper said:


> Finally, they have yet to make any statements in defense of their own actions. I am more than willing to hear their side of the argument. As I said to them in an email I sent yesterday: if they believe their actions to be defensible, then I urge them to defend them. Why did they think that registering our domain names (regardless of legality) was an ethical thing to do, and that it would be looked kindly upon by the community? If they have good reason, I will listen.




I spoke with Hillside Games* and they told me that they registered those domain names because it would help them find a cure for cancer.






*In a dream. We were all wearing yellow tutus and eating socks.


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## Silver Moon

Morrus said:


> I think you may have overrated the legal situation. It's a marketing situation. Nobody is suing anyone, despite bluster. I bet you 10 ice cream cones that Hillside Games isn't stupid enough to start suing.



Probably true, but it might still be prudent for him to stop posting directly and to have his current posts (and those that quote him) deleted in the threads.   Anything anybody else that posts is just hearsay.


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## CleverName

*Wow*

I will look for Wyverntale Games when next I get to Asheville. I am very disappointed in Hillside. A great friend of mine made a big button that he wore to cons it said "Life is too short to play with A$$___s." Goes for shopping too.

Let us know your progress.


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## WetRats

This thread makes it sound like the oldest game store in Asheville, Pastimes, no longer exists. Did they close?


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## Mirth

Logging in for the first time in years to comment here. I've lived in Asheville since 1997 and owned a book & music store in Black Mountain from 1997-2003. I've frequented Pastimes, Comic Envy and Blitzkrieg Games and found all of them to be great shops with good customer service. I was sad to hear that Blitzkrieg had closed (I thought they were moving locations around the corner), but I'm very glad to hear that Wyvern's Tale is taking up where they left off. I currently live in West Asheville and can't wait to give some of my hard-earned money to a FLGS like theirs.

I say all of this because I have only ever been in Hillside Games ONCE. The customer service was so atrocious that I vowed I would never go back. In fact, I had taken my two sons there to get them started in RPGs and we had a fairly substantial purchase that I left on the counter because the person behind the register (who I assume was the owner) was so rude and insulting I didn't want to give them any reward and I wanted to get my kids out of there. Horrible way to run a business.

Wyvern's Tale, I fanned you on facebook and I look forward to seeing an update soon for when you are going to open. 

To all my long-lost enworld buddies, HEY!

Mirth (aka Jay Myers)


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## catsclaw227

Mirth said:


> To all my long-lost enworld buddies, HEY!



Welcome back!


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## w_earle_wheeler

WetRats said:


> This thread makes it sound like the oldest game store in Asheville, Pastimes, no longer exists. Did they close?




Nope, they are still in Asheville. That's where I buy my comic books.

I still remember buying a Paranoia RPG supplement from them in 1992, back when they also sold CDs.


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## Aeolius

Mirth said:


> I've lived in Asheville since 1997 and owned a book & music store in Black Mountain from 1997-2003.




I attended a New Garden Friends School reunion, yesterday. Bob Welsh, who was once headmaster at NGFS, taught up at Black Mountain for years.


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## Matchstick

Mirth said:


> Logging in for the first time in years to comment here. I've lived in Asheville since 1997 and owned a book & music store in Black Mountain from 1997-2003. I've frequented Pastimes, Comic Envy and Blitzkrieg Games and found all of them to be great shops with good customer service. I was sad to hear that Blitzkrieg had closed (I thought they were moving locations around the corner), but I'm very glad to hear that Wyvern's Tale is taking up where they left off. I currently live in West Asheville and can't wait to give some of my hard-earned money to a FLGS like theirs.
> 
> I say all of this because I have only ever been in Hillside Games ONCE. The customer service was so atrocious that I vowed I would never go back. In fact, I had taken my two sons there to get them started in RPGs and we had a fairly substantial purchase that I left on the counter because the person behind the register (who I assume was the owner) was so rude and insulting I didn't want to give them any reward and I wanted to get my kids out of there. Horrible way to run a business.
> 
> Wyvern's Tale, I fanned you on facebook and I look forward to seeing an update soon for when you are going to open.
> 
> To all my long-lost enworld buddies, HEY!
> 
> Mirth (aka Jay Myers)




Dang it World Mage, get back in the ATM!


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## WetRats

Hey Matchstick, watch out for that subway train!


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## aryus

I hate to refresh this, but since I've come late to the party I will point out one fact regarding the issue. Thewyvernstale.com, registered by Hillside games, redirects to a site for a miniature painter who owns the domain wyvernstale.com (whois.tucows.com). That domain was registered back in 2004 and directed to her Comcast site (see archive.org), which has a username of wyvernstale. The point I am trying to make is that the new domain, thewyvernstale.com, is being used by a legitimate entity who has had the name for several years, thus it is very unlikely that any cybersquatting is happening here.

Yes, Hillside pulled a fast one on the new store owners by purchasing the domain names, but they have not done anything illegal. I'm not trying to defend their actions, personally I disapprove of such tactics in our hobby, but did want to point out some facts I have not yet seen so people understand what might really be happening rather than jumping to conclusions base don emotion.

Thank you.


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## Mirth

aryus said:


> I hate to refresh this, but since I've come late to the party I will point out one fact regarding the issue. Thewyvernstale.com, registered by Hillside games, redirects to a site for a miniature painter who owns the domain wyvernstale.com (whois.tucows.com). That domain was registered back in 2004 and directed to her Comcast site (see archive.org), which has a username of wyvernstale. The point I am trying to make is that the new domain, thewyvernstale.com, is being used by a legitimate entity who has had the name for several years, thus it is very unlikely that any cybersquatting is happening here.
> 
> Yes, Hillside pulled a fast one on the new store owners by purchasing the domain names, but they have not done anything illegal. I'm not trying to defend their actions, personally I disapprove of such tactics in our hobby, but did want to point out some facts I have not yet seen so people understand what might really be happening rather than jumping to conclusions base don emotion.
> 
> Thank you.




Actually, that fact was already pointed out earlier and it was noted at the same time that Hillside only made that redirect AFTER they were identified as cybersquatters. The figure painter has also come forward to say that she has no connection to Hillside and, although she is glad for unexpected increase in traffic to her site, she does not want to be affiliated with Hillside. 

Reading is fundamental. So are above-board business practices in an industry and hobby as small as this one.


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## gamerprinter

aryus said:


> Yes, Hillside pulled a fast one on the new store owners by purchasing the domain names, but they have not done anything illegal. Thank you.




Technically, buying a domain to disrupt another business to whom the name is a trade name or mark of the company affected, is illegal.


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## Rune

catsclaw227 said:


> Now a local news website is running an article:
> 
> Hillside Games versus The Wyvern's Tale | Mountain Xpress | Asheville, NC




Too bad that article lists ENworld's web address as ENworld.com.


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## HezekiahSmith

I don't know if someone else has suggested this already, but you might want to contact the Electronic Freedom Foundation. They sometimes provide free legal assistance with issues like this.


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## Mark Plemmons

Nareau said:


> Recently, one of the two gaming stores in town [Asheville, NC] closed its doors. ... Unfortunately, the other remaining gaming store [Hillside Games] appears to be run by jerks.





I just wanted to throw in a clarification to this. There is also at least one more gaming store (Pastimes) in Asheville. I used to work there for several years back in the 90s - and the manager is a friend who I spoke to a few days ago, so I know they're still around (probably for 30 years now).

My best wishes to Wyvern's Tale, though! 

EDIT: I see this was mentioned above.


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## RigaMortus2

Mark CMG said:


> Start a new rumor each week about what name is going to be used but keep the new real name secret.  Let the other store waste it's time, energy and money chasing phantoms.  But, remember, the best way to get back at petty people is to ignore them and live your live well.




Yes yes...  THIS and assassination works well


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## wilmheath

Hey Heath here from Cape Fear Games which is in Wilmington, NC. I grew up near Asheville(Hendersonville) and we have spoken to Amanda on occasions and she has always been pleasant. I will not draw any conclusions until I hear the other side of the story. There are ALWAYS two sides to every story. I am not saying I do not believe you all but I would like to at least hear the other side first.

I do however wish you guys good luck with your new business and if you ever need anything I'm happy to chat. I won't chat about this situation because I would rather stay neutral on something like this but if you just want advice on running a LGS I'm happy to help.

One quick piece of advise that I noticed from the article that you linked in your post.
"Their prices were competitive with Amazon"
and 
"Recently, one of the two gaming stores in town [Asheville, NC] closed its doors"

I would say that those two statements are directly related and you need to focus on a different business model. If you want to match amazon that is great but you also have to move 2x to 3x more games than a store that does not match amazon unless you have another source of income.

Anyways good luck guys and I hope this situation works itself out.


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## Llwynog

WetRats said:


> This thread makes it sound like the oldest game store in Asheville, Pastimes, no longer exists. Did they close?



It is my understanding that Pastimes is basically a comic book shop now but I haven't been there in years so that is pure hearsay.

In its heyday, Buncombe County had five game stores (in rough order of opening dates): Pastimes, Craftish Geeks (that was me!), Sword & Grail, Underground Games (now Hillside Games), and Kringle's Place (might have the name slightly wrong).

Twice now there was also a store called "Uncle Fred's Magic & Games Emporium" but it was more of a magic shop that sold games than an actual game store. He now sells exclusively through his webstore since maintaining a storefront proved unprofitable.

We and Kringle's closed due to health issues. I _think_ S&G went bankrupt but I largely lost contact with him once we moved our store out of downtown (they opened 3.5 blocks from us 6 months after we did; we moved because downtown parking _sucks_ almost as much as our landlady did). That left Pastimes (who, as mentioned, was supposedly getting out of games) and Hillside until Blitzkrieg closed. (There may, of course, be or have been other stores but I am not aware of them since I stopped keeping track after we closed.) So, as far as I know, Hillside is it right now so I'd love some news on Pastimes without having to drive to other side of the county.

--------------------

When S&G opened I went to introduce myself and was glad to discover that he preferred not to have a bunch of kids in the store (the owner of Pastimes told us the same thing when we introduced ourselves to him) so we did Yu-Gi-Oh! and Pokémon and ran most of the HeroClix tournaments (I even kept it up at HeroHunter Comics after our store closed until I started running them at Hillside). We likewise had no interest in Warhammer and such nor, at that time, roleplaying games. So only about half of each store's inventory overlapped with the other and we always sent customers to each other. It worked out really for us and I assume it did the same for them.

It is my understanding that Wyvern's Tale wants to do the same thing (they're not planning to do CCGs, for instance) if other stores will let them.

--------------------

I don't have time right now to go back and read the entire thread so I don't know if this has been mentioned, but they did manage to get a domain: www.thewyvernstaleavl.com (which currently just redirects to their facebook page).


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## Mark Plemmons

Pastimes still sells games. One section has gaming tables, too.

They quit selling music a few years ago. That may be what you're thinking of. When I worked there, it was Music/Comics/Games. We were even the major supplier of classical music cds in that part of the state, thanks to a good relationship with the local station. It was an odd mix, but it worked.


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## Gareman

Sounds like the store got tired of "prices ... competitive with Amazon" that eventually sunk their competitor and took some unfortunate pre-emptive action to prevent the turd from resurfacing in the bowl. I can totally sympathize, but obviously don't agree with their actions.

Everyone needs to tone it the hell down though. Shut up and do some business already. And maybe if you don't try to have Amazon level prices, you might stick around a bit longer than the last Wyvern's Tale.


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## w_earle_wheeler

Perhaps this thread has the attention of the parties involved.

It's almost the end of April and there is still no store, just a facebook page. Is it going to happen?


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## Nareau

w_earle_wheeler said:


> Perhaps this thread has the attention of the parties involved.
> 
> It's almost the end of April and there is still no store, just a facebook page. Is it going to happen?



Yes!  I updated the other thread where you asked this, but here it is in case you haven't seen it:


> The Wyvern's Tale had their grand opening this past Saturday, to coincide with Free RPG Day. It was a huge success. Tons of people came through, boardgames were sold, and roughly a dozen games were played. They have a pretty great location near downtown, and 5 good-sized rooms for gamers to play in.


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## WetRats

I stopped by the grand opening last weekend.

It's a beautiful store in a great location.

Nice folks, too!


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