# Is Now the Time to Send WOTC a Real Message?



## broghammerj (Sep 6, 2002)

The news of the recent layoffs has left a real bitter taste in my mouth.  Is now the time for the roleplaying community to send a message with their pocket books?  I find it difficult to support a gaming company that rids itself of its most productive and dependable talent.  I would almost rather see the company fold and sold off to someone else than continue to ride this dead end train to no where.

I had been planning to purchase the D20 Modern setting, but with the letting go of Jeff Grub, what will be the outcome be of this product?  It's insane that one of the main creators is gone prior to the product's release.

I think we should vote with our pocketbooks.  I personally will now only buy products from 3rd party companies.   I want to make OGL the noose from which to hang WOTC by.  They can let their talent go.  They will only breed more competition to drive them into the ground.

Are you with me?


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## Christian Walker (Sep 6, 2002)

I think your bitter resentment is misplaced. I think that Hasbro, the parent company, is the entity calling for the job cuts.


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## Bendris Noulg (Sep 6, 2002)

Also consider that if the company was making more money, they'd probably be keeping more people (heck, maybe all of them).  Holding back from buying their product will only lead to further layoffs.

If you want to send a message, folks should write in about which designers they like the most and the least, which would at least effect _who_ gets cut when cuts are made.


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## J Lloyd (Sep 6, 2002)

I think this might just be a natural process. I think Malhavoc shows that former WotC people can leave and still do quite well. 

What is more fascinating to me is where are these people going? I think you'll see them create their own companies (and thus create a polarization in the field when it comes to authoritative d20 statements or products), or they may sign up with other companies.


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## John Crichton (Sep 6, 2002)

*I'm with you in spirit...*

I hate to see all those fine people lose their jobs.  But I want to see where Hasbro is going with all this before I go too nuts.  The public has known about possible layoffs for months now.  I'd like to hear from the folks who were let go and something from the company itself in reguards to this situation.  I want to see what happened and get as many facts as I can.

But either way, it's a shame.  I hope all the creative talent that was let go continues to produce great gaming products.  I know I will continue to support them with my dollars.

Amen.


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## Dr Midnight (Sep 6, 2002)

I'm all for a course of action, Brog, but they're right... boycotting WotC will hurt D&D, not Hasbro. Hasbro will just shrug and snip a few more jobs.


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## thundershot (Sep 6, 2002)

Yeah, that's a great thing to do to WotC. Kick them where it hurts while they're still on the ground bleeding... Let's give them a chance to lick their wounds. As far as I can see, there are still several products that some of these people HAVE worked on that I want.

Monster Manual II
Book of Vile Darkness
d20 Modern
Savage Species
Fiend Folio
Arms & Equipment Guide (though Kenzer's "Complete Arms & Equipment Guide" in November may be more than enough, since it sounds like a combo of the original A&EG and Aurora's)

Of course, there's more coming out from 3rd party publishers that I'm getting, but that's besides the point. ;D

Chris


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## Nathal (Sep 6, 2002)

*Boycott*

In this case, I will not support a company that treats its employees like cattle.  These are not ordinary people getting tossed away like wheat chaff...

Its damn hard enough making a living from creative work, and a company like Wizards was like one final bastion of such folk.  Layoffs happen yes, and a company must survive, but these layoffs can only mean a drastic change in the direction of quality for the game.  This action was not done with any thought or concern for the game itself and sure as hell not with any thought of its fans.  For the better?  If so, I'll eat my hat.

The message here is that "brand" is more important than its authors.  Bull.  I will not buy another D&D product until it changes hands and a reasonable number of "old guard" is hired back.  I'll write my own game.    

And who is this that writes of "bitter resentment"?  Have no you empathy for these people whose life long dreams and efforts were just swept out the door?  Yeah, that's business all right.   D&D.  Excuse my french.  

~Dan Cross


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## DonAdam (Sep 6, 2002)

I hate to say this, but in a way it's a good thing now that the core rules for d20 have been established.

Just look at Monte. Monte has been able to publish whatever he feels like since he left Wizards. Even if you don't like his ranger, bard, and sorcerer, for instance, his ability to flex his creative muscle without the "suits" overseeing him has provided the internet d20 community with more and varied options. I don't like his ranger, but I love his sorcerer and wizard, I'm glad that he put all three out there.

Now, maybe, we'll get to see Skip, JD, and the oher talented designers strut their stuff as much as they want to.

These people are way too talented to starve.

Also being an avid Star Wars d20 player, I realize that the Star Wars brand will do fine with freelancers. Remember that Monte still does contract work for Wizards, and I know that JD and Rodney "Moridin" Thompson can put out quality products whether they are regular employees or not.

Job security as a whole is a thing of the past. People can click to it, or we can embrace the inevitable advent of economic flexibility. There will be bad decisions made (this is one) but on the whole very few jobs will be secure as the economy involves.

To me this isn't good or bad, until people do something good or bad with it. On one hand Skip might not know where his next paycheck is coming from, but on the other his horizons for what he wants to do are now much more broad.

Everyone will do fine, and these talented individuals will find a way to turn this whole scenario into something positive. That's what a flexible, free, competitive market composed of competent people with valuable skills does.


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## Xarlen (Sep 6, 2002)

I have to agree with Thundershot. I mean, the loss of these fellas is bad, but I still want the MMII, BoVD, and the Savage Species (Though it'll likely suck like some splat books).

What would be Cool, is if Grubb, and Williams went over with Monte.


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## Nathal (Sep 6, 2002)

"Job security as a whole is a thing of the past. People can click to it, or we can embrace the inevitable advent of economic flexibility. There will be bad decisions made (this is one) but on the whole very few jobs will be secure as the economy involves."

   I work for the old music publishing company in the united states.  There are people there that have worked in my building for over 30 years (most in fact).  I am 29 years old and have worked there for 2 years.  After 911 we ran into hard times and saw quite a few layoffs.  One man had worked with our company for 13 years (but 'worked' is the word in dispute).  Job security was assured to those that worked hard, which is quite unlike the model proposed above.  What is above is just plain stupid for a company.  Sure, people who have been there forever and don't work ought to be fired, but anyone whose work is excellent should not fear random layoffs.  To fear such a thing spells a radical change in the direction of any company carrying out such a program.  Its creative genocide.


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## Nathal (Sep 6, 2002)

The question is not can those guys try and make it on their own.  Even if they do well I'd be surprised if they earned anything near their original salary.  For most, I'd wager, its time for a new career while freelancing on the side.  I could be wrong.

That does not mitigate the fact that Hasbro/WOTC does not give a damn about its fans or the creative core of the game.  It's not even good business.


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## BOZ (Sep 6, 2002)

i agree that it's good that the 3E rules have been established and set in place.  as long as hasbro does not pull the OGL altogether, and d20 can still keep going, our hobby will continue to flourish.  there's enough internet support alone to keep things going for years.  even should that go down - well, should i say it? - you can play the game _without_ new stuff.  i mean, come on, there are people out there playing 1E D&D who've had the same set of books for 25 years.  yeah, it would be sad to see the last vestiges of "official" D&D go, but we can really live without it.  we've got all the books we need right now, and due out within the next 6 months, what else do we really need?


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## Duncan Haldane (Sep 6, 2002)

*Boycott?*

I'm not sure if I'll boycott WotC.

I haven't bought a lot of product from WotC lately.  I've just started running a new campaign set in the Scarred Lands, and haven't bought the lastest stuff for FR.

I do want to buy Call of Cthulhu D20, and probably MMII, Book of Vile Darkness, and maybe Fiend Folio.  But I will definately be checking out the reviews first.

Hopefully soon we will see a heap more stuff added to the SRD, which will allow D20 producers to expand.

I also expect to see WotC taking on more freelance work.

But I expect to see some natural attritiion (or unnatural).

I was working at a business a couple of years ago that was bleeding staff.  A manager and friend of mine said to me that it was because the people weren't enjoying working there.  I said that I wasn't sure of that, since everyone had an excuse for why they were leaving (moving cities, etc).  He responded that "when people want to leave at a bad workplace they will find an excuse to leave.  When they want to stay at a good workplace they will find an excuse to say".  

I expect to see this at WotC.  More people will choose to leave, and are unlikely to be replaced.

I've been retrenched twice in the last 4 years.  It is hard.  And it's painful to sit and watch a company destroy a workplace.

Enough for now,

Duncan


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## DonAdam (Sep 6, 2002)

> What is above is just plain stupid for a company. Sure, people who have been there forever and don't work ought to be fired, but anyone whose work is excellent should not fear random layoffs. To fear such a thing spells a radical change in the direction of any company carrying out such a program. Its creative genocide.




You're putting words in my mouth.

I said the move to less job security in general isn't necessarily bad.

I also said that this particular move is stupid, so I agree with you there. However, with the flexible d20 market, it won't be as bad as it could have been, and we could see some positive results that we otherwise would not have.

I do think that Hasbro is about the stupidest company in the world, because they try to micromanage everything and they suck at everything. Furthermore, I think Jason Carl (Sword and Fist) still has a job while Skip and JD just got laid off.

So, one last time:

Less job security in general = not bad.

This particular move = stupid, but not as bad as everybody thinks.


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## broghammerj (Sep 6, 2002)

> I think your bitter resentment is misplaced. I think that Hasbro, the parent company, is the entity calling for the job cuts



I think that this is really somantics.  I view the companies as one of the same, one just happens to be a subsidiary.  WotC position in the corporate ladder leaves it little power.  I want to weaken it further so that it's sold and rebuilt or the DND license is sold to someone who gives a damn.  They can't keep releasing products and firing their best creative minds.


> Yeah, that's a great thing to do to WotC. Kick them where it hurts while they're still on the ground bleeding



Lets put it simply.  Maybe my hyperbole is a bit extreme but I feel like I've just set sail on the Titanic and I'm a little concerned about our Captain.  I want to kick WotC around.  They've certainly kicked all of us around.  They are slowly fading out FR (for all you FR haters this may be a good thing), Cthulhu is getting no support, SW is going freelance, who knows what they'll do with D20 Modern.  They've alienated their fans in some way with almost every product.  This has to stop.


> If you want to send a message, folks should write in about which designers they like the most and the least, which would at least effect who gets cut when cuts are made.



I really wish this is the way corporations would work, but lets face it.  I would like a show of hands of anyone who supported the last two big layoffs.  You're going to be hard pressed to find anyone.  Hasbro is like that old grumpy guy who can't hear anymore and refuses to listen.  All they hear is the chi-ching of coinage.  They haven't heard from the fans in quite some time.
I would like to start backing a winning horse.  Look at Monte's work with Malhavoc and the merging with Swords and Sorcery.  Could you imagine the potential power of Monte, Skip, Grub, Reynolds etc. forming their own company.  With the OGL and new 3rd party talent, WotC may only creating more competition for themselves.


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## Kai Lord (Sep 6, 2002)

broghammerj said:
			
		

> *Are you with me? *




FREEEEEEEDDDOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!


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## EarthsShadow (Sep 6, 2002)

*times are a changing...*

I agree with much of the above.  I for one would love to see all these creative minds get together, forge one company that loves us as gamers and want to create real quality work for us, and for them.  What I don't understand, even after the last two years, is why in the world did Wizards sell to Hasbro in the first place???

At that moment, the future of Wizards went downhill.  Their products for D&D, most of which are good quality products, have started to decline in quality.  The last product of theirs that I have purchased, beyond Dragon and Dungeon (which isn't even their's anymore), was Call of Cthulu.  The only book of theirs I will buy next is d20 Modern, and perhaps the BofVdarkness.  As for the rest, forget it.  I am still upset at Etools and the lack of support for that product, and with their recent firings, you can bet that product will not get any support from anywhere, fluid or WotC.

Hasbro has just signed the death warrant of WotC, there is no denying that.  They signed it the moment they purchased the company.  It's just a matter of time when D&D gets sold, or cut, by Hasbro when all they care about is the allmighty $$$ and not the customers.  

WotC, you don't deserve Dungeons and Dragons anymore.


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## Impeesa (Sep 6, 2002)

Support the last remains of WotC while giving the Hasbro managers a good kick in the pants (if they're smart enough to catch the connection  ) - if there was anything coming out soon by the people who got fired, make extra sure to pick it up. 

--Impeesa--


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## Lizard (Sep 6, 2002)

broghammerj said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Are you with me? *




Why, yes. The best way to convince Hasbro that the roleplaying business can be profitable is to boycott them.

The sales figures for RPGs are so low that, if a boycott WAS succesful, Hasbro wouldn't see it as a reaction to their policies -- they'd see it as 'proof' that the RPG market was totally dead.


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## broghammerj (Sep 6, 2002)

> Why, yes. The best way to convince Hasbro that the roleplaying business can be profitable is to boycott them.



Depends on your perspective I guess.  The message I want to send is something like this(all arbritrary numbers): Malhavoc sales up 21%, Sword and Sorcery sales up 17%, Green Ronin sales up 27%.  WoTC sales down 35%.  That would be a message!

You need to listen to your customer or your business is going to fail.  At least thats how I thought is was supposed to work?????


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## Glyfair (Sep 6, 2002)

broghammerj said:
			
		

> *
> Depends on your perspective I guess.  The message I want to send is something like this(all arbritrary numbers): Malhavoc sales up 21%, Sword and Sorcery sales up 17%, Green Ronin sales up 27%.  WoTC sales down 35%.  That would be a message!
> 
> You need to listen to your customer or your business is going to fail.  At least thats how I thought is was supposed to work????? *




Hmmm...My impression is that the Hasbro management has very little contact with the customer, especially the RPG oriented customer.  I imagine if they saw that WoTC sales were down 35% then they would assume it's being poorly run and decide to cut costs they should layoff more people.

As for the other companies, I'll wager they aren't even a blip on their radar.

Glyfair of Glamis


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## Glyfair (Sep 6, 2002)

broghammerj said:
			
		

> *
> Cthulhu is getting no support, *




Actually, this was the plan from the beginning.  When they announced d20 Cthulhu they said they would be producing the Core Rulebook and then Chaosium would be able to support the product.  At the time that was the WotC philosphy on their other d20 products outside of D&D and Star Wars, put out one or two products and then stop.

Glyfair of Glamis


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## EarthsShadow (Sep 6, 2002)

*Cthulu*

true, and if you go to Fantasy Flight Games website, they are working on a Call of Cthulu campaign setting, so the game isn't dead and other companies besides Chaosium are working on it.


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## Ranger REG (Sep 6, 2002)

I think there's a company that publishes _Nocturnum_ for _CoC d20._ Also, Pagan Publishing will be publishing a new _Delta Green_ supplement that will include _d20_ stats.


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## tburdett (Sep 6, 2002)

broghammerj said:
			
		

> *The news of the recent layoffs has left a real bitter taste in my mouth.  Is now the time for the roleplaying community to send a message with their pocket books?  I find it difficult to support a gaming company that rids itself of its most productive and dependable talent.  I would almost rather see the company fold and sold off to someone else than continue to ride this dead end train to no where.
> *




It's probably best to think of WotC as an appendage.  Like a hand.  A healthy hand doesn't do anything that the brain (Hasbro) doesn't tell it to do.

You can bet that the order to make these layoffs came from the brain, and the hand just obediantly closed it's fist on those jobs.

If you want to try to punish somebody, at least pick the correct target.


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## Vaxalon (Sep 6, 2002)

I think I'll continue buying WotC stuff, and boycott the REST of Hasbro.


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## Drawmack (Sep 6, 2002)

How many of you out there work in the technology or pharmaseuticals industries? People wake up and smell the coffee we are in a ressecion that was spurned by troubles in these two industries. A year and six months ago I worked for a company that had 600 employees in the office that I worked in and a half a million employees world-wide. Today that company, which I no longer work for, has 10 employees in my old office and 90,000 world-wide. CF recently mass fired 80% of it's employees. Enron has been bust for a year. How many of those people do you think are role-players? How many of those people do you think used to support WotC with their money? Economics are all interlinked when one area takes a hit they all take a hit. It is going to take our economy 10 years to recover from the crash on wall street a year and a half ago.

Now let's talk corporate politics as they relate to job security. (this is a normal scenario for a company the size of hasbro and probably varies slightly from what happened there but not a hell of a lot) When layoffs are going to happen the managers are asked to turn in lists of their employees prioritiezed by their importance to the company and the need to keep them on. Then the accountants go over the books and turn in lists prioritiezed by salary. Then a number monkey works with these two lists to come up with the list of people taht will acctually be let go. The people that were let go were let go either because their bosses didn't like them, they made too much money or both. As was already mentioned none of these people are going to be able to make their old salary free-lancing. Well there Mr. Brainiac, if they can't make their old salary freelancing then how do you expect WotC to be able to continue paying that salary?


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## Hand of Evil (Sep 6, 2002)

The name Dungeons and Dragons will only be a sub-division of some marketing reps job description when Hasbro finishes.

I don't think a boycot at this time would help or even do any good.  Hasbro has effectively killed Wizards of the Coast.


My thoughts go to those that have been layed off.


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## Beckett (Sep 6, 2002)

For some reason, the title of this thread gave me images of horse heads in beds.  After picturing that, a call for a boycott was a real let-down...


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## National Acrobat (Sep 6, 2002)

My two cents on this, I agree with DonAdam on his points and I agree with most of the other people who believe that the creative minds who have been laid off will now be able to create as they wish. I believe we will see that thanks to the OGL/D20 system. While they may not be able to make the kind of salary they used to, now they will be able to creatively do whatever they wish and those of us familiar with their work will gain much enjoyment out of it I believe. I know I certainly have enjoyed Monte's stuff a lot since he started Malhavoc Press. As an employee of a large, corporate entity I am a fish in a barrel. Unfortunately, that is how it works these days, recessions don't help. I don't think boycotting WOTC is the answer, possibly sending correspondence to Hasbro might be, but in truth, corporations do what they do to bring profits to their shareholders. That is the reality of the situation. I think the OGL/D20 system will keep the game going regardless of what happens, there will be plenty of stuff out there to use.


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## brak1 (Sep 6, 2002)

The toughest thing about this is that we're talking about one of the few industries where product is directly relatable to the people who created it.  We're bitter and angry because we associate these names with superior work.  Hasbro fires them and we can't help but think "well damn, I KNOW those folks produced good stuff.  I knew them and their work and I liked it.  I have no idea what will come from this company next.  Back to square one - I can't just pick a book up based on the names on the credits page."  That, and when you know a person's work and like it, some of that like is bound to be transferred to the actual creator.  This doesn't happen with stuff like, oh, say... toilet paper.  ("Joe Smith made the softest, most absorbent tissue paper EVER.  And they just let him go!  Now what will I wipe with?")

So, bitterness and acrimony is expected and understood.  Wanting to "make things right" or "make your voice heard" is also understood.  We want things to be fair, and this doesn't seem fair.  In fact, it seems stupid and short-sighted.  But corporations in general are often both.  

But that's why I think a boycott won't work.  Because nobody at Hasbro is looking at reasons.  If they were looking at reasons they would have kept a lot of the people they fired.  They look at the bottom line and have meetings about what the problem is.   We have no idea what happens in those meetings, but we do know what they're response is: cut.   So if their sales drop sharply on D&D are you absolutely sure they'll get the message?  Or will they just cut again?  And are you absolutely sure they'll just sell WotC or D&D in the end?  Or will they chunk up the properties individually and try and make more money that way?  Can you see FR being sold to a TV production company?  We'd never see RPG books from it again.

Okay, that's totally alarmist.  And I have probably less idea than most what the future holds.  All I'm saying is that boycotts work on big "money maker" items.  A company will change Barby so she doesn't say "Math is hard!" because Barby makes money and they don't want to lose those bucks.  They're cutting staff because WotC is NOT making money, or at least not what they expect.  

I guess if we're going to do anything I'd rather see a petition.  One that clearly outlines our concerns, our gripes and explains (in simple terms) why D&D is a good thing, why it will always make them money (if not scads) and why if they continue down the course they're on they will be strangling the goose that lays the golden egg.  If we got just the people who sent into the Setting Search to sign it, that's a lot of pressure - and one that corporations are used to seeing.  I mean, 11,000 people saying "we will buy your product for the foreseeable future if you change your ways thusly" is going to have more impact than a general scream of rage and a drop in sales.

Anyway.  Just my opinion.  We welcome yours.


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## Ravellion (Sep 6, 2002)

Nathal said:
			
		

> *"Job security as a whole is a thing of the past. People can click to it, or we can embrace the inevitable advent of economic flexibility. There will be bad decisions made (this is one) but on the whole very few jobs will be secure as the economy involves."
> *




The problem with this is that you might hurt Average Worker Productivity. Most workers won't feel for their company *or* their product, since they know they are dispensable anyway.

Layoffs like these aren't possible everywhere in the world. (as in the "social democracies" of Scandinavia). (note to those who don't know - The Netherlands is NOT a scandinavian country ***)
Of course, this kind of freedom does stimulate starting ventures a *lot*. Still, I think most people _want_ stability in their lives, and job security (here in the Netherlands it is also slowly becoming less of a sacred cow) is important to them. I am very curious to see how these developments pan out.

This brings me to the WotC lay offs. I hope the people find something new soon. I hope they knew beforehand they were being sacked. I hope they don't have to move halfway cross the US for a new job. They are, for a large degree, responsible for some of the fun I've had in the last 7 years or so. I think voting done with yuour wallet should be done vice versa: not dismissing WotC products, but buying their (almost undoubtedtly good)  products if they choose to enter D20 publishing.

Rav

*** OT: I've met several well educated, intelligent, gaming Americans who thought otherwise. European topography isn't something tought in certain US high schools?


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## Storm Raven (Sep 6, 2002)

Rav said:
			
		

> *The problem with this is that you might hurt Average Worker Productivity. Most workers won't feel for their company or their product, since they know they are dispensable anyway.*





Or they might work harder to make sure they are not someone who is deemed expendable when the review comes down the pipe. It could work either way.

[snip]



> ** OT: I've met several well educated, intelligent, gaming Americans who thought otherwise. European topography isn't something tought in certain US high schools?  *




Oh, it's there, but probably focused on less than it is in European schools. Do you know where Okeefenokee, the Red River, the Black Hills or the Painted Desert are?


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## WizarDru (Sep 6, 2002)

Speaking as someone who's been unemployed for 9 months after his company (a division of a 50,000 employee company) laid off the entire 550 person staff, I can certainly understand how layoffs work (especially since it isn't the first time).  Hasbro isn't a company based on creativity...they see the writers as just literary engineers, and one game designer is as good as another, whether or not this makes any sense.  Why was one designer let go, while another wasn't?  Budgetary reasons, most likely.  Someone like Jeff Grubb, who's been with TSR since 1e days (and is one of the best writers around), has probably acrued more vacation, pay grades and benefits than someone like the author of Sword and Fist.  I don't necessarily like it, but I understand it.  I don't like it when anyone looses their job due to economic reasons, Period.  Especially when WOTC was the Golden Child for a while, and seemed like they could do no wrong (Magic, Pokemon, reviving D&D).  Now, they're just like everybody else. 


Hasbro most likely has no idea who Malhavoc is, for a start.  And let's be clear, Malhavoc isn't a competitor...all the print materials they've released has come from S&SS, and they barely register in sales.  More importantly, Hasbro is rating against their own perceptions and profitability margin.  Making D&D unprofitable will result in no new materials, but Hasbro won't likely sell the D&D name, it's worth too much in name-recognition.  Everyone knows the D&D name, and that's worth a great deal, even if they don't utilize it except for licensing.

I'll still purchase the WOTC books that interest me.  This is the third or fourth layoff WOTC's had in the last two years.  Things are tough all over, as they say.  Am I unhappy that Skip and Jeff are on the street?  Sure.  But I'm more unhappy that *I'm* on the street.  Hurting WOTC more doesn't really accomplish much than put more folks out of work, which I'm not terribly fond of.  They were paid for the work when they did it, and most of these works have been done for over a year, waiting for a space in the publishing schedule and budget.  I don't know if they recieve royalties, though.

A petition might accomplish something, though I'm not sure what.  But making Hasbro aware of the WOTC client base's feelings probably wouldn't be a bad idea.


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## Blacksad (Sep 6, 2002)

thundershot said:
			
		

> *Yeah, that's a great thing to do to WotC. Kick them where it hurts while they're still on the ground bleeding... Let's give them a chance to lick their wounds. As far as I can see, there are still several products that some of these people HAVE worked on that I want.
> 
> Monster Manual II
> Book of Vile Darkness
> ...




I will buy those products too, but after? I don't know.

If they use good freelancer, I might buy new WotC book, but if WotC doesn't produce anything good after that, I will gladly kick WotC on the ground while it is still bleeding, it will give more room for other publishers, and reduce the value of the D&D brand, so that if someone wants to buy it, he would have money left to pay editor and game designer.


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## Psion (Sep 6, 2002)

Let the market tend to itself, I say. Is there really a need to do a conscious boycott? Ask yourself "to what end." Of course, you want the products to be the best. That sort of thing takes care of itself, IMO. You put out crap products, people won't buy.

I already think the quality of products from WotC has plummeted from the first round of layoffs... this year has had a lot of turkeys if you ask me (DDG, SBG, BoC, etc.) They are cutting deeper into the creative department. 

Will this affect me? I don't know. Maybe some fat needs trimmed. But maybe next year will be more dismal than this year and I will see. But if next year is good, then a boycott serves no purpose.

So go out and buy stuff that interests you. Skip the stuff that doesn't. If by that formula, the D&D remains unprofitable, perhaps Hasborg will come to the conclusion that these offers to buy it don't sound so bad.


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## Frostmarrow (Sep 6, 2002)

Rav said:
			
		

> *OT: I've met several well educated, intelligent, gaming Americans who thought otherwise. European topography isn't something tought in certain US high schools?  *




It's a common held belief in Europe that Americans are bad at geography. It's not correct but it's American media who have reported it to Europe. I can't remember what TV-show featured Americans who couldn't place America on a world map. However, I fondly remember a snippet of the Jay Leno-show where uneducated people competed in a ultra-easy quiz-show and got everything wrong. 

On the other hand, there are some misconceptions about my country in America as well. For instance we don't commit suicide more than any other people. It was Richard Nixon who said something or other to that effect on national television in America. Sadly, he was misinformed at the time.

Still, it often surprises me how I have more in common with people on the other side of the planet than I have with my neighbours. But that's human kind for you.

I feel bad for the people who have been laid off today, it's sort of like 'save or die' isn't it? One day you have a job and the next day you don't. I wouldn't worry too much though as everything will work out in the end. Remember, the opposite is also true; One day you are unemployed and the next your back in the saddle. It happens so fast you won't know what hit you. 

Good luck!


----------



## Leopold (Sep 6, 2002)

i'm gonna voice this on here:

this was a business decision not a personal one.


Hasbro/WOTC had a reason to lay these people off, what that we can only guess upon. 

So if anything protesting and buying NO books will cause more layoffs and more setbacks in the end hurting more people.  Like someone already said, it's Hasbro you want to go for and not WOTC. Start writing letters to them about the recent layoffs and product quality, i am sure they will take notice if they start recieving a ton of PHYSICAL mail and not email as snail mail is 10X more powerful than a simple email.


It's a never ending vicious circle of death in corporate life but you gotta play the game to keep going.


----------



## Leopold (Sep 6, 2002)

Vaxalon said:
			
		

> *I think I'll continue buying WotC stuff, and boycott the REST of Hasbro. *




smartest thing i heard all day..and it's only 830am!


----------



## Buttercup (Sep 6, 2002)

*Re: Boycott*



			
				Nathal said:
			
		

> *I will not support a company that treats its employees like cattle.  *




Then you will have to stop buying everything.  All for-profit corporations are interested in their bottom line, not the well being of their employees.  Harsh but true.  Every business from grocery stores to banks has the same business ethic.  It isn't reasonable to expect Hasbro to behave any differently.  Certainly we can feel compassion for those let go, and wish them well, but making a scene and threatening to boycott is a useless gesture, and one that shows little understanding of how capitalism works.


----------



## Ravellion (Sep 6, 2002)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Oh, it's there, but probably focused on less than it is in European schools. Do you know where Okeefenokee, the Red River, the Black Hills or the Painted Desert are? [/B]




No, but I know the states, and even some of the harder stuff such as that Miami isn't the capitol of Florida, and the difference between Washington and Washington DC. (ie. 5000 Km  ). The Netherlands is a state. With nearly 16 million people. 13th richest country in the world. It has the largest harbour in the world. The US liberated the southern part of it in WW2 (The Canadians liberated the Northern part). We were the first country in the world to recognise the USA as an independant state. The Netherlands (note the plural) was the first republic in the world.

Now, most Dutchmen will know where Missouri lies. The state _and_ the river.

Errrr.... Sorry. I guess this is a bit of a pet peeve. 

Rav


----------



## Tom Cashel (Sep 6, 2002)

*Re: Boycott*



			
				Nathal said:
			
		

> *In this case, I will not support a company that treats its employees like cattle.  These are not ordinary people getting tossed away like wheat chaff...
> *




Do you own a car?  Do you buy groceries?  Wear clothes?  Watch TV?  Surf the internet?  Then you are helping to support hundreds of companies and corporations that treat their employees like cattle.  That's America, my friend.

Are you saying that it's okay to treat "ordinary" people like cattle, but not "talented" people?

$$$ is the bottom line with Hasbro.  $$$ is the bottom line with America.  Either face the _entire_ problem or just deal.

(Like Buttercup said!  )


----------



## Staffan (Sep 6, 2002)

Rav said:
			
		

> *The Netherlands (note the plural) was the first republic in the world.*



What? Before Rome?


----------



## Buttercup (Sep 6, 2002)

Rav said:
			
		

> *Most workers won't feel for their company or their product, since they know they are dispensable anyway.
> *




Back in 1980, my boss told me that no one was indispensable, including him.  This is not a new idea.  It's just capitalism.  Any worker who thinks that their job is secure had better think again.  And if you were a WotC employee for the last 4 years, watching round after round of layoffs, wouldn't you realize that it would eventually happen to you too, and start planning?  You would if you had any foresight.

As I said before, I feel for the WotC people who were let go.  But there really isn't any reason to get all up in arms about the future of D20.  The OGL cannot be revoked.  We've been told by Anthony Valterra that someone is working on the SRD.  We've also been told, in slightly vague language, for over a year, that the cutbacks were not finished, and that eventually the D&D brand would probably be sold off.


----------



## Mortaneus (Sep 6, 2002)

First of all, I see no reason for a boycott.  However, I also see no reason to support a company that releases crap.  I'm not buying the books to support someone's job, I'm buying them because they're good.

Considering that all the best talent is now gone, I seriously doubt that WotC will be able to release anything of anywhere near the quality we want.

And with all the good talent now on the open market, the good products are going to be coming out from other companies.  And those are the ones I'll buy.

As far as boycotting Hasbro, but not WotC, that's like saying you hate someone, but not their shadow.  WotC, especially with this round of cuts, doesn't really exist anymore.

A deliberate boycott will just cause what is left of WotC to be tossed in a back room somewhere.  There's no need.  Hasbro has basically organized a more effective boycott themselves, by getting rid of the creative talent.  With nothing good coming out, nobody will buy their stuff.

Simple as that.


----------



## Vrecknidj (Sep 6, 2002)

I posted this on the D&D List and I'll say the same thing here.  Exercising power through boycotting will fail.  If you want to exercise power in a campital-based economic system, you do so by owning stock.  Imagine if all the D&D players out there bought 10 shares of stock each and then all those players let one or two from the group speak as their representative.  That person walks into the Hasbro board meetings (which is what stockholders have the right to do) and says "I'm here as a representative of the people who are actually buying all your Wizards products, and we have something to say."  They might then listen.

Dave


----------



## Bragg Battleaxe (Sep 6, 2002)

I am sure that most of these people saw the layoffs coming. If they didn't... honestly, I don't even see that as a possibilty. If they want to stay in RPGs, there are plenty of places they can work since they are already established in the industry. The fact of the matter is that Hasbro is never going to see D&D as valuable no matter how much it makes. They didn't by D&D, they bought Magic the Gathering and the other WotC cash cows and D&D just happened to come along with it. WotC isn't making half of what it was making a few years back I would guess, so therein lies the problem.


----------



## Buttercup (Sep 6, 2002)

Vrecknidj said:
			
		

> *"I'm here as a representative of the people who are actually buying all your Wizards products, and we have something to say."  They might then listen.
> 
> *




Actually, if the players owned enough stock, they would have no choice but to listen, because we would control the company.


----------



## Psion (Sep 6, 2002)

Buttercup said:
			
		

> *We've also been told, in slightly vague language, for over a year, that the cutbacks were not finished, and that eventually the D&D brand would probably be sold off. *




Just when were we told the brand would probably be sold off? Last I heard, they wouldn't part with it after receiving several generous offers because they knew it had a high rate of recognition.


----------



## Ravellion (Sep 6, 2002)

Staffan said:
			
		

> *
> What? Before Rome? *




Alright, I wasn't specific enough. It really depends on your terminology. The first modern republic might be better, but still not clear. If you are interested in the development of non-monarchic government, go to the local library, since I couldn't find a text in English (only in Dutch, and I am NOT going to translate that many pages).

What was interesting about the Dutch republic was that there were two very large eras (about 40% or so of the existence of the republic, I think about 50 years IIRC) that did not have a stadhouder, a president if you will, and that it was just the  7 representatives of the provinces who governed. All in all, in Rome, the republic was a lot less democratic (though my memory of ancient Rome is rusty... it was 12 years ago I dealt with that in "High School").

Perhaps I'll translate this later (perhaps I'll be able to find the original, bacause this is already a translation), if I have the time. It is an account of the English Ambassador Sir Willian Temple, in 1672, about the Dutch state:

Commentaar van Sir Willian Temple, Engels ambassadeur (1672)
"Het is duidelijk [...] dat deze Staat (die dateert van de Unie van Utrecht) niet echt een gemenebest genoemd kan worden, maar eerder een verbond is van zeven Souvereine Provincies, met elkaar verenigd voor hun gemeenschappelijke en wederzijdse defensie, maar zonder enige afhankelijkheid van elkaar. Maar om de aard van hun regering (...) te ontdekken, moet die in nog kleinere onderdelen uit elkaar gehaald worden, waardoor zal blijken, dat elk van deze Provincies op haar beurt is samengesteld uit vele kleine staatjes en steden, die elk op zich verschillende kenmerken van souvereine macht hebben, en die niet onderworpen zijn aan de souvereiniteit van hun Provincie. In de Provinciale Staten worden besluiten immers niet genomen bij meerderheid van stemmen, maar door algehele eenstemmigheid. Want zoals de Staten-Generaal geen oorlog kunnen verklaren, of vrede kunnen sluiten, of een nieuw bondgenootschap kunnen aangaan, of belastingen kunnen heffen zonder de instemming van elke provincie, zo kunnen de Staten-Generaal eigenlijk niets van dit alles doen zonder de instemming van elk van de steden die een stem hebben in de Provinciale Statenvergadering".

Source: www.geschiedenis.nl

Let me know if you would like me to translate this, because that would be a lot of work... I won't do it if you are only marginally interested. This still doesn't give all the information you require though. (It doesn't compare with Rome, it just gives an objective account)

Rav


----------



## paqman (Sep 6, 2002)

Psion said:
			
		

> *... boycott? Ask yourself "to what end." Of course, you want the products to be the best. ....*




As I stated in another thread. I mentioned that I would boycott WotC simply for the fact that I am fed off with their corporate style of dealing with staff. I have been part of layoffs 3 times now. I know how it is and I know that each time, quality programming was ditched down the drain. 

Ok here will not be the case, they will release what the creative minds did. So no loss.

But right now there are so many good products comming from some of the small companies started by ex WotC staffers that I simply decided to support them at the place of WotC. I Ususally buy one big 40$/month and right now I can continue doing so without buying WotC stuff.

But when I first mentioned boycotting them, it was a personal thing. I thought it over and decided to do so. I was no thinking to start a wave.


----------



## Warchild (Sep 6, 2002)

T







			
				Rav said:
			
		

> *he Netherlands is a state. With nearly 16 million people. 13th richest country in the world. *




That is none too shabby! Well done. 

T







			
				Rav said:
			
		

> *he US liberated the southern part of it in WW2 (The Canadians liberated the Northern part). *




Hey, your welcome! 



			
				Rav said:
			
		

> *We were the first country in the world to recognise the USA as an independant state.*




Hey, thanks you guys!!




			
				Rav said:
			
		

> *All in all, in Rome, the republic was a lot less democratic (though my memory of ancient Rome is rusty... it was 12 years ago I dealt with that in "High School")
> Rav *




For most of us it is the same. We learned European geography many years ago in high school or college. But since its most likely not a major issue in our job or personal life, that knowledge has taken a back seat in our minds and has suffered. While i could find your country on the map (i was a geogrpahy buff however), i couldn't tell you anything about it. Except that we liberated half of it in WW2, it is the 13th wealthiest country in the world, and that you were officially our first friend!


----------



## Wicht (Sep 6, 2002)

broghammerj said:
			
		

> *I want to kick WotC around. They've certainly kicked all of us around.   *




Maybe its just me, but I don't feel kicked around at all.  Hasbro has done nothing I know of to personally attack me.  They have made decisions I disagree with but no matter how I try, I can't take it personally.  I feel for the ones laid off, but for some reason I can't get excited about it.  It does not affect my game.  If anything i am grateful for what has already been done for the game by people at WotC.


----------



## Furn_Darkside (Sep 6, 2002)

broghammerj said:
			
		

> *
> I want to kick WotC around.  They've certainly kicked all of us around. *




I looked around for bruises, but was not able to find any. 

WotC has not done me any harm.

Thanks for the laugh, though.

FD


----------



## blaster219 (Sep 6, 2002)

Vrecknidj said:
			
		

> *I posted this on the D&D List and I'll say the same thing here.  Exercising power through boycotting will fail.  If you want to exercise power in a campital-based economic system, you do so by owning stock.  Imagine if all the D&D players out there bought 10 shares of stock each and then all those players let one or two from the group speak as their representative.  That person walks into the Hasbro board meetings (which is what stockholders have the right to do) and says "I'm here as a representative of the people who are actually buying all your Wizards products, and we have something to say."  They might then listen.
> 
> Dave *




Does anyone know what the going rate is for Hasbro shares


----------



## Furn_Darkside (Sep 6, 2002)

blaster219 said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Does anyone know what the going rate is for Hasbro shares  *




Around $13 (13.09 atm)

FD


----------



## blaster219 (Sep 6, 2002)

Hmmmm, I could afford that....


----------



## Psion (Sep 6, 2002)

Furn_Darkside said:
			
		

> *Around $13 (13.09 atm)
> *




Hmmm.... so I could by 10 shares and be a drop in the bucket. Or I can buy the books I want over the next 2 months...

Decisions, decisions...


----------



## blaster219 (Sep 6, 2002)

*On buying shares.*

This brings to mind a Kodt strip.

BA: My worst fear has come true, my players have unionised!


----------



## Wicht (Sep 6, 2002)

Realistically speaking, how many shares would we have to buy to even be noticed?


----------



## Furn_Darkside (Sep 6, 2002)

Wicht said:
			
		

> *Realistically speaking, how many shares would we have to buy to even be noticed? *




Well, their top institutional holder of stocks is Ariel Capital Management, Inc.- they have 17.1 million shares. 

Start saving those bottle returns.

FD


----------



## Furn_Darkside (Sep 6, 2002)

Salutations,

Just to paint the picture a bit more-

They have a total of 173.1 million shares outstanding.

Each share is one vote.

For those curious-

Alan Hassenfeld
Chairman, CEO 
2001 Pay: $1.1M 

FD


----------



## Khan the Warlord (Sep 6, 2002)

> Just to paint the picture a bit more-
> 
> They have a total of 173.1 million shares outstanding.




Hmm... so if every share was purchased *today*, it would cost $226,761,000. 

Hmm... and Hasbro paid $325 million to Peter for the company a couple of years ago.

Anyone have an idea what the shares were worth at that time? Or, were there even shares of WotC stock before Hasbro?


----------



## Wicht (Sep 6, 2002)

So if 1000 of us buy shares we would only have to buy 1730 shares each in order to have a 1% interest in the company.

That's not as bad as I thought it might be


----------



## Furn_Darkside (Sep 6, 2002)

Khan the Warlord said:
			
		

> *
> Anyone have an idea what the shares were worth at that time? Or, were there even shares of WotC stock before Hasbro? *




If you can give me a date, then I can probably figure it out.

And just to be clear- those are the numbers for Hasbro shares that are currently in the public for purchase/holding.

FD


----------



## Wicht (Sep 6, 2002)

Khan the Warlord said:
			
		

> *Hmm... so if every share was purchased *today*, it would cost $226,761,000.  *




Maybe I calculated wrong but I get 2 billion when I multiply 13 times 173 million.  Or am I calculating this wrong?


----------



## Furn_Darkside (Sep 6, 2002)

Wicht said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Maybe I calculated wrong but I get 2 billion when I multiply 13 times 173 million.  Or am I calculating this wrong? *




You are correct, it would be 2.25 billion. Not that all of the current holders would sell.

FD


----------



## Khan the Warlord (Sep 6, 2002)

Wicht said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Maybe I calculated wrong but I get 2 billion when I multiply 13 times 173 million.  Or am I calculating this wrong? *




ACK.

LOL.

Yep, it helps when you multiply by millions and not hundreds of thousands, like I mistakenly did.


----------



## Xeriar (Sep 6, 2002)

Rav said:
			
		

> * No, but I know the states, and even some of the harder stuff such as that Miami isn't the capitol of Florida, and the difference between Washington and Washington DC. (ie. 5000 Km  ). The Netherlands is a state. With nearly 16 million people. 13th richest country in the world. It has the largest harbour in the world. The US liberated the southern part of it in WW2 (The Canadians liberated the Northern part). We were the first country in the world to recognise the USA as an independant state. The Netherlands (note the plural) was the first republic in the world.
> 
> Now, most Dutchmen will know where Missouri lies. The state and the river.
> 
> ...




The problem with the Netherlands is that it is never mentioned outside of school or a map.  Advertising always refers to it as Holland.  So people don't knnow that one place is the other.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Sep 6, 2002)

I don't understand this at all.  Why "boycott" a company that has laid off a bunch of people most of us don't know?  Sure you like their work but jeez...seems like fanboy stuff.  The only way I'll boycott a company is if thier product sucks.


----------



## Leopold (Sep 6, 2002)

why not do the capitalistic thing and boycott with your pocket book. 

If they release crap material don't buy it. Buy someone elses product that is better, superior, and in direct competition. If the product is bad, voice your opinion on it and state so. This is the basis for capitalism as the first one to market with a superior product usually gets the lions share of the reward.


Buying shares is another good way to get heard. IF all of a sudden 5% of the company was snapped up they would take notice, any company would.

I think it's only 5% of the company that you would need before you have to declare your motives for the future.


----------



## alsih2o (Sep 6, 2002)

imho, if you wanna send a message, buy 3 friends a phb and give them the revenue to develop new talent and keep the old.

 removing income from the co. is futile and senseless (again imho) but letting them know good stuff is appreciated and expanding the game, now that is productive!

 recruiting in 6 13 year olds will get more done for the positive aspect of wotc than refusing to buy some book on grounds outside of content.


----------



## Wicht (Sep 6, 2002)

Leopold said:
			
		

> *Buying shares is another good way to get heard. IF all of a sudden 5% of the company was snapped up they would take notice, any company would.
> *




And it would only cost us, the fan base, a little over 8 million dollars to do this.  A regular steal if you ask me.  I can chip in 39$ for the cause. (3 whole shares for me)


----------



## Furn_Darkside (Sep 6, 2002)

Wicht said:
			
		

> *
> 
> And it would only cost us, the fan base, a little over 8 million dollars to do this.  A regular steal if you ask me.  I can chip in 39$ for the cause. (3 whole shares for me)  *




Be sure to buy before November 1st- on November 15th they are giving a 3 cents dividend per share.

FD


----------



## jasamcarl (Sep 6, 2002)

*Oh god*

This is hilarious. Internet fanboys waxing philosophic about strategic policies they are not privy to. I see a great vacuum of economic sense on this messageboard, but in case i'm incorrect in that, let me pose this question to those calling for a boycott. Is the going assumption that structural change that might include labor allocation is by neccesity bad? Or the sign of an ailing company? I just want someone to articulate this absurdity in a conscice manner. seriously...


----------



## Zulkir (Sep 6, 2002)

Vrecknidj said:
			
		

> *I posted this on the D&D List and I'll say the same thing here.  Exercising power through boycotting will fail.  If you want to exercise power in a campital-based economic system, you do so by owning stock.  Imagine if all the D&D players out there bought 10 shares of stock each and then all those players let one or two from the group speak as their representative.  That person walks into the Hasbro board meetings (which is what stockholders have the right to do) and says "I'm here as a representative of the people who are actually buying all your Wizards products, and we have something to say."  They might then listen.
> 
> Dave *




As a Hasbro employee I can neither endorse nor discourage this idea. However, just as a note of fact, our market research indicates that there are approximately 2 million active D&D players.

AV


----------



## Seule (Sep 6, 2002)

My theory: the original poster to this thread was trolling.  Only someone really stupid could believe that boycotting a company's projects could convince them to refrain from firing staff, or hiring back laid off staff members.  If they make less money from books because they are being boycotted, they'll go out of business, not expand.
Of course, this post could be a troll too.

  --Seule


----------



## Xeriar (Sep 6, 2002)

Wicht said:
			
		

> *
> 
> And it would only cost us, the fan base, a little over 8 million dollars to do this.  A regular steal if you ask me.  I can chip in 39$ for the cause. (3 whole shares for me)  *




Five or six years ago, Hasbro was worth nearly seven billion dollars.  Now it's worth a third of that.  Hang on to your cash, really.

I think they've been in panic mode for awhile now, and  proceeded to nail their coffin shut when they sold their computer games division to the frogs (Infogrames).

All that's left of Hasbro are the tattered remnants of WotC and Avalon Hill, IMO.


----------



## Nathal (Sep 6, 2002)

*Re: Re: Boycott*



			
				Buttercup said:
			
		

> *Then you will have to stop buying everything.  All for-profit corporations are interested in their bottom line, not the well being of their employees.  Harsh but true. *




That is not true all of the time.  I now work for a company where that is not true.  It is a smaller company all things considered, but we have been around for nearly 100 years.  I've survived two rounds of layoffs after 9-11, but those that remained did so because they worked the hardest.  The salaries were not the issue; it was the work ethic in each case.  When the company ran into more trouble, they cut our salaries by 2%.  Why?  Because the president felt he'd rather cut off his own left hand than cut good staff that had been there for 30 years.  In fact, the president of the company his own salary by 6% and announced such.  In some cases (when people where layed off rather than fired) They gave their ex-employess 6 months of health insurance plus severance pay and a letter of reccomndation written by the president.

Even layoffs can be done ethically.  I agree that is very uncommon in large companies.  I've often wondered what has caused this shift in attitude toward individual employees as assets?  What the heck happened in 50 years? 




> * Every business from grocery stores to banks has the same business ethic. *




That is not always true.  There was a huge difference between how employees were treated at all of my jobs.  It depends on current management and how involved and compassionate the corporate heads are.  When layoffs become neccessary then there are many ways to decide how to cut expenses, and if individual talent and ones personal work ethic is second to salary, then those good people are replaced with low-paid corporate monkeys...I expect there will be a drastic change in the quality of the work from that point on in any company.



> * It isn't reasonable to expect Hasbro to behave any differently.  Certainly we can feel compassion for those let go, and wish them well, but making a scene and threatening to boycott is a useless gesture, and one that shows little understanding of how capitalism works. *




Well, what everybody says about the boycott sounds reasonable.  I admit my response was in anger for those talented guys that dedicated their lives to this game.  I agree that trouble was in the cards when WOTC was sold to Hasbro in the first place.

If one wants to see further D&D product from Wizards then boycotting won't help to keep their company alive.  Of course, I doubt there stuff will be of any quality in the future.  And the point that Hasbro is not likely to sell the rights to the name of D&D, even while crushing the rest of that biz sounds like a reasonable prediction, unfortunately.

So


----------



## EarthsShadow (Sep 6, 2002)

*shares...*

If there are 2 million active DnD players, and if each bought even 5 shares of Hasbro stock, how much stock would that be?  10 million shares, and if we all purchased it with the agreement that we want Hasbro to devote some energy to our game, and our market, would 10 million shares be enough?  I sure hope my math is right.  13*5 = $65.00, which is the cost of two main rulebooks...

Personally, even if 1/4 of the active DnD players bought stock, those with jobs and money, at 13$ a share that's still not bad, so if 500,000 people bought 20 shares (13*20 = $260) over the course of a three month time, and we all agreed, that would still be 10M total for the gaming community, right?  It wouldn't cost us much to do this.

Plus, if we suddenly purchased that many that quick, you can bet that the cost of the shares would suddenly increase, and that would put money in the pocket's of Hasbro collective bunch of moneymongers...their profits would go up, and we might have some leverage that if they do not cater to the gaming community, we sell our stocks when the price for the stocks increase above 20$, maybe even 30$...then let's see how long their company lasts when they lose that much money.  

I guess if something like this would happen, this would be the first time in history that all roleplaying gamers stuck together to deliver a message to a corporate company.  I would be a part of this if everyone else agreed to it, and if we all are upset about the decisions, and if we are truly dissatisfied with how Hasbro is handling things, the only way to get their attention is with $$$, not just words, and the only way to affect them is with their stocks.  Buy the stocks, increase the price of the stock to hopefully double, then threaten to sell them.  Hit Hasbro where it hurts, and after all, its only business, right?


----------



## Nathal (Sep 6, 2002)

*Re: Re: Boycott*



			
				Tom Cashel said:
			
		

> *  Do you own a car?  Do you buy groceries?  Wear clothes?  Watch TV?  Surf the internet?  Then you are helping to support hundreds of companies and corporations that treat their employees like cattle.  That's America, my friend.*




I do not believe that every corporation in America treats their employees as a number.  Good management recognizes talent and keeps their strong employees to ensure the future of their products.  If such talented, hard working people are getting dumped, then that means a radical change in the direction of the company.  If the goal was to keep D&D alive, then the decision was a bad one.  If the goal was to shut it down or change what is IS drastically, then they are probably on the right track.  I do not know the mind of Hasbro or what they see in the cards for Wizards or D&D, but I would be shocked to find that they considered the game or its authors more important than whatever revenue they can squeeze out of the name recognition.

Also, I fight against injustice in corporate politics on whatever scale I can.  Read Michael Moore's "Downsize This"...there are people out there who CARE if people are being treated as cattle.  If you are satisfied with the way things are in corporate america and how they are handled in politics, then what can I say?  




> * Are you saying that it's okay to treat "ordinary" people like cattle, but not "talented" people? *




Not all jobs require specialized skills.  Layoffs at a Mcdonalds are of a different order than at WOTC, no?  I wouldn't layoff people who are the strongest talents in a company and replace them with managment that does not understand the game or give a damn about the fans (which is the impression I have from the letters I've seen).  Late T$R did just that, people like Lorraine Williams hating gamers in general and the way that company treated their employees sucked from the accounts that I've read and the people that I've spoken to.  Who is left in the creatie department of WOTC now and can they possibly met the demands with such a small staff?

I never said that ordinary people ought to be treated like dirt and the artists held in high esteem.  That is a straw man argument, but Plato might agree with the idea.  




> [/B] $$$ is the bottom line with Hasbro.  $$$ is the bottom line with America.  Either face the _entire_ problem or just deal. [/B]




I walk out of jobs where I am treated like a number and will always do so.  Work to live, don't live to work.  It is possible to work for a company that has a code of ethics in how they treat their employees, but I can understand how nobody believes this...it is a very rare thing to find.


----------



## Furn_Darkside (Sep 6, 2002)

*Re: shares...*



			
				EarthsShadow said:
			
		

> *If 10 million shares, and if we all purchased it with the agreement that we want Hasbro to devote some energy to our game, and our market, would 10 million shares be enough*




Considering some of the anti-corporation sentiments voiced on this board alone, I am not sure I would like to see that all.....



> Hit Hasbro where it hurts, and after all, its only business, right?




You have to understand that I (and seemingly others) have no hard feelings what so ever towards Hasbro. If people active to the level of participating in it online are not interested, then do you think the casual player is going to give a hill of beans?

Not that I think anyone could organize all the d&d players anyway..

Respectfully submitted
FD


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## Nathal (Sep 6, 2002)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> *I don't understand this at all.  Why "boycott" a company that has laid off a bunch of people most of us don't know?  Sure you like their work but jeez...seems like fanboy stuff.  The only way I'll boycott a company is if thier product sucks. *





Those who say the boycott won't work to improve the situation are probably right.  Regardless, I won't buy anything more from Hasbro/WOTC, only on principle.  I would not condemn anybody that would buy something that was of quality.    

I feel bad for the creative talent and I know how difficult it can be to freelance (I am a freelancer who has worked for Hekaforge and has product coming soon from Troll Lord).  I am angry over corporatism in America in general, but feeling empathy for fellow creative types is not "fanboy stuff".


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## Ravellion (Sep 6, 2002)

Xeriar said:
			
		

> *The problem with the Netherlands is that it is never mentioned outside of school or a map.  Advertising always refers to it as Holland.  So people don't knnow that one place is the other. *




Add to that the fact that we speak Dutch (which isn't Deutsch, which is German), and the confusion is complete.

Calling the Netherlands Holland would be like calling the US New England. It is inaccurate and, to some, offending. The Provinces of Holland do hold nearly all the important cities though.

I blame the English. The Americans inherited their language, and they couldn't make up their minds on how to call us  . Besides, as all things in history after 1500, it probably is England's fault. 

Rav


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## Wicht (Sep 6, 2002)

*Re: Re: shares...*



			
				Furn_Darkside said:
			
		

> *Not that I think anyone could organize all the d&d players anyway...*




Nor do I.  Its a pipe dream.  The money needed is too much for a few of us, but the organization needed for the many to be a cohesive force is too daunting.


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## Xeriar (Sep 6, 2002)

Rav said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Add to that the fact that we speak Dutch (which isn't Deutsch, which is German), and the confusion is complete.
> 
> ...




In fact, I never knew that Holland, the Dutch, and the Netherlands were all (in a sense) the same thing until I met some friends there (online) and decided to actually look the whole mess up.  I wasn't taught that the Netherlanders are the Dutch, and that it holds the province of Holland.  Learned nothing of the Hanziatic League in school, etc.   And all that cool historic stuff.

On the other hand, we do learn quite a bit about European military history.  What the heck happened to Luxembourg, and all that.  Belguim's role in WWII is well-noted in school, as well.

Now, on the other hand, the only reason I know Andorra is a country in Europe is simply because it is so obscure.  How many French and Spaniards don't know that they neighbor that little dot of a country?


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## radferth (Sep 6, 2002)

QUOTE]I blame the English. The Americans inherited their language, and they couldn't make up their minds on how to call us  . Besides, as all things in history after 1500, it probably is England's fault.[/QUOTE] 

I agree with Rav, let's skip the Hasbro thing and boycott England.  Or buy them up; how much do shares of England go for? 

In all seriousness, what is the worst case scenario for Hasbro/WotC mishandling the game?  They get rid of all the staff and just keep D&D around for the licensing revenue?   This doesn't sound so bad.  The OGL has taken WotC out of the position of being the sole company that can support the game, so even if they are totally unable to publish supplements I would care to purchase, I can still get good supplements, some from the very same designers that no longer work for WotC.  What was bad was the early nineties, when TSR would not allow anyone else to produce AD&D material, and most of what they produced was crap.  (Maybe some FR stuff was OK, but I never looked at any of that).


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## Thorin Stoutfoot (Sep 6, 2002)

*Re: shares...*



			
				EarthsShadow said:
			
		

> *If there are 2 million active DnD players, and if each bought even 5 shares of Hasbro stock, how much stock would that be?  10 million shares, and if we all purchased it with the agreement that we want Hasbro to devote some energy to our game, and our market, would 10 million shares be enough?  *



Uh, a quick look at Edgar on-line would show that Hasbro has  209,694,630 shares issued. So 10 million shares would be 0.5% of Hasbro's stock. Barely significant, but not really a lot of clout. You have to get to about 5% before the company notices.


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## EarthsShadow (Sep 6, 2002)

*true*

true.   

time to move on with life, we can't change anything that's been done, and all we can truly do is move with the times of change.


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## jasamcarl (Sep 6, 2002)

*Let me just say..*

That the normative argument that Wotc should not have been sold to hasbro in the first place has yet to be made for me in the one term i give a damn about; the quality of the material.

I haven't seen a compelling argument that there is any real 'problem' at all.


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## Glyfair (Sep 6, 2002)

> *In all seriousness, what is the worst case scenario for Hasbro/WotC mishandling the game?   *




Although not likely, the worst case scenario can be seen by their treatment of some of the Avalon Hill properties (such as the Runequest: Slayers game that was in the can & ready to be released).  

If a boycott of WotC was very successful (again, something that's unlikely), then Hasbro might see it as a wasted property.  Given much has been released as Open Content, they could decide to fold WotC and just bury D&D.

Again, it's not likely, but it certainly is the worst case scenario.

Glyfair of Glamis


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## Daiymo (Sep 6, 2002)

While the layoffs are a bit disconcerting, a boycott would do no real good. A large parent company like Hasbro is only concerned about profit margin and market share. Even if a product is still profitable, if it is less so than say the previous year or years, companies tend to slash the first and easiest resource at hand to make the books look better-the labor force.

Its a hallmark of modern economy. All companies do it, regardless of how short sighted it may seem. 

On the bright side, I tend to agree with what some have already put forth. With the OGL, and the current 3e products in the pipeline, what else can WoTC produce, other than fluffy stuff? WoTC's stategy it seems has been to introduce an open source product that serves as a framework for others to make supplements "ie software" for. 

If this is the strategy why do you need a big staff? I mean it seems this has been WoTC/Hasbros plan. They discontinued support for the old TSR settings that supposedly glutted and divided the market/fanbase(Planescape,etc..) and  have gotten out of magazine publishing. 

Their strategy seems clear. Sell core rulebooks and collect liscence royalty for cross media products-film, tv, computer/video games/novels. Low overhead, high profits. Support the very profitable FR setting, little else, until the next "edition/revamp" of the game. The setting search and the corporate feelers to us about whether we what "crunch" or "fluff" seem to be in line with this plan. Scale back products and hence expenses, at least till the econonmy recovers. Some of this Im sure is based on the company's study of gamer demographics and fanbase- and I'm sure it has decreased as the excitement surrounding the launch of 3e has waned since its initial release two years ago.

Luckily we consumers have the OGL.So some product in some form will get made by someone.


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## Xeriar (Sep 6, 2002)

*Re: Re: shares...*



			
				Thorin Stoutfoot said:
			
		

> *
> Uh, a quick look at Edgar on-line would show that Hasbro has  209,694,630 shares issued. So 10 million shares would be 0.5% of Hasbro's stock. Barely significant, but not really a lot of clout. You have to get to about 5% before the company notices. *




Err, do your math again, sir, you are indeed off by a factor of ten.

Regardless, the numbers look murderous.  They lost over a quarter -BILLION- dollars in their first half this year.  They can't do that forever...


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## Buttercup (Sep 6, 2002)

Psion said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Just when were we told the brand would probably be sold off? Last I heard, they wouldn't part with it after receiving several generous offers because they knew it had a high rate of recognition. *




I recall Ryan Dancy and several others making comments about it, but they were all on the old boards, so I can't look for it.  As I remember, and of course I could be wrong, comments were made that were along the lines of "Mark my words, in five years D&D will have changed hands."  Now, you can argue that comments made on a message board are nothing but hot air, er, electrons.  And you would no doubt be correct.  I was merely suggesting that we shouldn't be surprised at anything drastic that happens.


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## Buttercup (Sep 6, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Boycott*



			
				Nathal said:
			
		

> *
> 
> That is not true all of the time.  I now work for a company where that is not true...and all sorts of other good stuff about the place he works
> *




You're lucky.  Is the company you work for privately held, by any chance?  The only companies I've ever heard of who truly care for their employees are not publicly traded companies.  Stockholders are interested in short term profit, not long term ethical behavior, in my experience.


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## Luddite (Sep 6, 2002)

Rav said:
			
		

> *
> 
> No, but I know the states, and even some of the harder stuff such as that Miami isn't the capitol of Florida, and the difference between Washington and Washington DC. (ie. 5000 Km  ). The Netherlands is a state. With nearly 16 million people. 13th richest country in the world. It has the largest harbour in the world. The US liberated the southern part of it in WW2 (The Canadians liberated the Northern part). We were the first country in the world to recognise the USA as an independant state. The Netherlands (note the plural) was the first republic in the world.
> 
> ...




European Geography would be a lot easier if it stayed the same for more then 20 years    When I was in school there was one Soviet Union, Yugoslavia, two Germanies....

Of course my fisrt introduction to European Geography was playing Diplomacy with my older bothers (which uses a pre-WWI political map).  Over the years I have dabbled into circa 1200 CE (for Ars Magica), WWII, and now Elizibethian Ear.  Suffice to say, I go get confused with all the "Correct" names (Holland vs The Netherlands)  Or odd references (like "The Low Country" which I think is Belgium/Flanders??)  

In the past 100 years, the mainland US has not revised its borders.  Not to mention that we only have to worry about 500 years of geograpy, and the first 100 years of that was mostly guess work. 

-The Luddite


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## broghammerj (Sep 6, 2002)

> My theory: the original poster to this thread was trolling. Only someone really stupid could believe that boycotting a company's projects could convince them to refrain from firing staff, or hiring back laid off staff members. If they make less money from books because they are being boycotted, they'll go out of business, not expand.



First of all I'm not trolling. I don't post often and thought I had something to say.  Second I never stipulated that a boycott would stop them from firing staff, creating hirebacks, etc.  That's absurd. Reread my post.  I would  rather see the company sold to someone who cares.  


> For some reason, the title of this thread gave me images of horse heads in beds. After picturing that, a call for a boycott was a real let-down...



Do you know anyone who owns horses?

As for people saying this discussion sounds like a bunch of fanboys, well you are on one of the best known DND sites....so whats your point?  I'm a fan of the game and I think it's being mismanaged.  I am disappointed that some particular individuals have been let go but it goes beyond that.

For me personally, this isn't based on anti-corporate sentiment.  For those who like to compare DND to manufacturing cars, tvs, microwaves, etc my response is that DND is based on creative and intellectual property.  That creativity has been let go over the past months.  The comparison is less valid because TVs, etc. are manufactured goods rather than creative products.  The problem is that WotC is own by a manufacturing company who doesn't understand the fundamental difference.


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## jasamcarl (Sep 6, 2002)

*Uh no...*

Your notion of 'creative content' is too simplistic to be believed. There are two parts to creation, the tastes of the market for which you are creating and the individual or individuals that synthesize those tastes and manifest it in actual product. On both those counts, corporate America can provide the goods, while smaller operations can and do fall apart on both, especially the first. Do you have any ideas how many 'creative' or 'artistic' endeavors are simply not marketable? This is because the 'creator' often doesn't have a comprehensive appreciation of the wider market, while a group of individuals do. This is where the corporation comes into play, with its resources to funnel information back and forth between the creative staff and wider public. You are confusing a democratic process with one that lacks creativity, a common nerd fallacy.


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## Bendris Noulg (Sep 6, 2002)

Luddite said:
			
		

> ...Over the years I have dabbled into circa 1200 CE (for Ars Magica), WWII, and now Elizibethian Ear....



You shouldn't do that; You have no idea where that ear's been. 

Consequently, I don't blame anything on England.  In fact, I blame England on Rome.


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## Nathal (Sep 6, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Boycott*



			
				Buttercup said:
			
		

> *
> 
> You're lucky.  Is the company you work for privately held, by any chance?  The only companies I've ever heard of who truly care for their employees are not publicly traded companies.  Stockholders are interested in short term profit, not long term ethical behavior, in my experience. *




Yes, and that is a VERY good point you make.  My for-profit company is private, owned by a non-profit organization.  I prefer to work for privately held companies.

After reading all of the material concerning boycott, I now agree strongly that it is not the right thing to do.  I was very angry on behalf of fellow creatives.  Quality of future product will do the rest.

~Dan Cross,
  getting a grip.


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## Luddite (Sep 6, 2002)

Bendris Noulg said:
			
		

> *You shouldn't do that; You have no idea where that ear's been.
> 
> Consequently, I don't blame anything on England.  In fact, I blame England on Rome.
> 
> *




Type fast and look what it gets me...  Though blaming things on England and _Ancient_ Rome seems about right.

I had the pleasure of attending a talk with Terry Prattchet and he gave his summary of English History as taught in Enlish Public Schools :

"First the Romans came, built all the roads, and left.  Then in 1066, William the Conquerer came and we had all the King!"

-The Luddite


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## shadow (Sep 7, 2002)

*A Lament for WotC!*

O mighty Wizards!  dost thou lie so low?
Are all thy conquests, glories, triumphs, spoils,
Shrunk to this little measure?  Fare thee well.


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## Holy Bovine (Sep 7, 2002)

> Posted by Nathal
> 
> That is not true all of the time. I now work for a company where that is not true. It is a smaller company all things considered, but we have been around for nearly 100 years. I've survived two rounds of layoffs after 9-11, but those that remained did so because they worked the hardest. The salaries were not the issue; it was the work ethic in each case. When the company ran into more trouble, they cut our salaries by 2%. Why? Because the president felt he'd rather cut off his own left hand than cut good staff that had been there for 30 years. In fact, the president of the company his own salary by 6% and announced such. In some cases (when people where layed off rather than fired) They gave their ex-employess 6 months of health insurance plus severance pay and a letter of reccomndation written by the president.





And how do you know that WotC doesn't do anything like this for their employees?  Do you work there?  Are you privy to the hiring/firing processes that make up Hasbro and WotC?   Possibly you are  - in which case forgive me and I will move along.  However even if WotC kicks people out on the street and has them beaten with d20's I cannot for the life of me figure out why a boycott would be in anyone's interest, least of all a fan's.

If WotC publishes garbage, don't buy (is there an echo in here?) there are plenty of reviewers around now to help you avoid bad product.  I personally have everything I need from WotC - PHB,  DMG and the OGL.  I have purchased more 3rd party stuff than I ever will from WotC (this hasn't changed much since the old TSR days - I was always the one to buy non-D&D games to try out).  I have noticed that the really talented people that WotC has let go (and those who have left of their own accord) seem to do very well for themselves outside of WotC.

I can understand feeling bad for people losing their jobs (everyone I know has been there at some point in their lives and it is truly the most scary of times) but this has been happening across North America for the better part of a year - I honestly am amazed that WotC has been shrunk even more.  Hasbro is on life support and sinking fast IMO - a third of their net worth gone in less than a year - and there is little chance of any meaningful economic recovery in the near future.  Expert to see this kind of thing at or just before Christmas as well (and remember you read it here first folks    )


EDIT - just re-reading for flame control and some parts may sound flamish here - please that is not the case - those are actually genuine question at the beginning!  Just want to make sure everything is happy-happy here!


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## alsih2o (Sep 7, 2002)

broghammerj said:
			
		

> *
> 
> As for people saying this discussion sounds like a bunch of fanboys, well you are on one of the best known DND sites.... *




 one of?!??!  one of??? boy, talk about stuff that will get a thread shut down....


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## Nathal (Sep 7, 2002)

Holy Bovine said:
			
		

> * And how do you know that WotC doesn't do anything like this for their employees?  Do you work there?  Are you privy to the hiring/firing processes that make up Hasbro and WotC?   Possibly you are  - in which case forgive me and I will move along. *





I never worked there, and have no insider information on the hiring/firing processes of the company.  I got the impression that these people were treated like dirt from the letters I've seen posted.  I would be happy to be wrong in my impression.        



> * I have noticed that the really talented people that WotC has let go (and those who have left of their own accord) seem to do very well for themselves outside of WotC. *




Not many freelancers can make a living writing D20 material.  Monte Cook may be the exception, but I don't think many (if any) of those guys are rich or can hope to make a decent living.  Best advice for a freelancer in the RPG industry is "don't quit your day job".  Ironic advice for ex-WOTC employees.


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## WizarDru (Sep 7, 2002)

Nathal said:
			
		

> * Not many freelancers can make a living writing D20 material.  Monte Cook may be the exception, but I don't think many (if any) of those guys are rich or can hope to make a decent living.  Best advice for a freelancer in the RPG industry is "don't quit your day job".  Ironic advice for ex-WOTC employees. *




Not really, since that advice is the same for full-time RPG designers.  The fact of the matter is, no one gets into RPG writing of any kind with the expectation of getting rich.  Remember, WOTC made it's money on CCGs, not RPGs.   If you discount folks like Peter Adkinson and the first group who got to cash in on Hasbro's buy-out,  you can count the number of folks who've gotten rich from writing RPGs on one-hand...with or without fingers.  Neither Steve Jackson nor Gary Gygax are rich beyond the dreams of avarice, successful as they are.  Monte makes a living, and a good one...but he's not living off his portfolio, AFAIK.

I have no idea how the layoffs are being handled at WOTC...but if previous layoffs are any indication, they may not be getting treated that badly.  However, the only people who might be able to tell us  probably are forbidden from doing so by their termination agreements.  Most likely, Hasbro has had them sign agreements as part of their severance package.  All I know is that I don't have a single friend or relative now who hasn't been laid off or let go in the last two years.  As I said, things are tough everywhere....WOTC is hardly immune.


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## Cassiel666 (Sep 7, 2002)

*Re: A Lament for WotC!*



			
				shadow said:
			
		

> *O mighty Wizards!  dost thou lie so low?
> Are all thy conquests, glories, triumphs, spoils,
> Shrunk to this little measure?  Fare thee well. *




Did you really have to go to the trouble of blank verse?  Even with the line-initial inversion in 3...  

Little measure indeed.  That, my friend, is the measure of Dante and Shakespeare.  Not even the the hexameter is greater...


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## Nathal (Sep 7, 2002)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> * Not really, since that advice is the same for full-time RPG designers.  The fact of the matter is, no one gets into RPG writing of any kind with the expectation of getting rich.  Remember, WOTC made it's money on CCGs, not RPGs.   If you discount folks like Peter Adkinson and the first group who got to cash in on Hasbro's buy-out,  you can count the number of folks who've gotten rich from writing RPGs on one-hand...with or without fingers.  Neither Steve Jackson nor Gary Gygax are rich beyond the dreams of avarice, successful as they are.  Monte makes a living, and a good one...but he's not living off his portfolio, AFAIK
> *




You're right, getting rich is not a realistic goal.  Of course, the writers working for WOTC made at least $30,000 a year...I hope.  I'd be surprised if freelancing would net them even $10,000 a year.  Most full-time freelance writers could not survive without the wife's day-job.  Then again, I've never made more than $22K a year (with my day job), so I guess perceived success depends on ones current income. 

Hey, you live in Malvern?  I used to live in Wayne, PA.  I'm now near the philadelphia airport.  Small world.


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## WizarDru (Sep 7, 2002)

Nathal said:
			
		

> *Hey, you live in Malvern?  I used to live in Wayne, PA.  I'm now near the philadelphia airport.  Small world. *




Cool, it's always nice to see more ENWorld folks in the area.  Yeah, personally, I'd call where I live Frazer, but the Postal zones are wiggy around here.  I used to work in Chesterbrook, but the post office called it Wayne.  Made for fun when people came to visit the office.

You gonna be going to Shorecon in October?


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## Mobius (Sep 7, 2002)

> Plus, if we suddenly purchased that many that quick, you can bet that the cost of the shares would suddenly increase, and that would put money in the pocket's of Hasbro collective bunch of moneymongers...their profits would go up




Just a correction on how shares work.  The ONLY times Hasbro gets money for a share purchase is when they are the seller of the shares, i.e. IPO, stock split.

As most of the shares out on the market are currently owned by private individuals or companies holding them as part of collective funds, those people or groups would collect the cash from any sale of their shares ... and not Hasbro.


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## Col_Pladoh (Sep 7, 2002)

Nathal said:
			
		

> *The question is not can those guys try and make it on their own.  Even if they do well I'd be surprised if they earned anything near their original salary.  For most, I'd wager, its time for a new career while freelancing on the side.  I could be wrong.
> 
> That does not mitigate the fact that Hasbro/WOTC does not give a damn about its fans or the creative core of the game.  It's not even good business. *




You are very much on target, Dan, when you state that. Unless the persons in questions get work with another large hobby gaming company, or an electronic publisher, they will not likely earn a living wage by freelance game writing.

I disagree completely in regards to the matter of the layoffs not being good business. Hasbro is a mass-market toy and game company. From that standpoint what they have done likely fits well with their business plan and is good business. They are not a hobby game company, and neither is WotC now, because it belongs to Hasbro.

The marketplace and the mindset for the hobby game company is not like that of Hasbro. Indeed, I regret that Hasbro now controls the D&D property,, as I think it bodes ill for that hobby game.

My first and last post here on this subject 

Gary


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## Kilmore (Sep 7, 2002)

Some thoughts...

Wizards of the Coast:  Good name.  There's a time to be Wizards, and there's a time to Coast.  With most of the work being done on D&D and MtG, I wonder what more their creative team CAN  do until either it comes time for D20.2, which I hope won't be for a while, or it comes time to jump on another Pokemon, Ninja Turtles, whatever bandwagon.  If there's anything, I'd suggest a D20 Wargame.

A boycott will do nothing good.  I'd wager that for the most part, Hasbro makes their money off of D&D with the core books being sold to new players.

America's awareness of the Netherlands may be low because the Netherlands doesn't make much news.  THIS IS A GOOD THING!  Keep it that way!  America makes news and we often regret it.  

A brigade of gamers buying Hasbro.  I don't know why, but something tells me that that is something that will kill D&D quicker than Mordinkanen and Elminster showing up in the Supreme Court with a "Cease and Desist" letter.


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## Ravellion (Sep 8, 2002)

*After rereading some of my posts...*

Hijacking this thread is proving to be surprisingly difficult 

Rav


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## Luddite (Sep 8, 2002)

I've noticed.  Not much call for creative Geography....

Time to hijack this bus to cuba.

-Luddite


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## Nathal (Sep 8, 2002)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Cool, it's always nice to see more ENWorld folks in the area.  Yeah, personally, I'd call where I live Frazer, but the Postal zones are wiggy around here.  I used to work in Chesterbrook, but the post office called it Wayne.  Made for fun when people came to visit the office.
> 
> You gonna be going to Shorecon in October? *




Where is Shorecon? Is there a website? I've heard of it before...it's in Jersey right?


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## Nathal (Sep 8, 2002)

Col_Pladoh said:
			
		

> *  Hasbro is a mass-market toy and game company. From that standpoint what they have done likely fits well with their business plan and is good business. They are not a hobby game company, and neither is WotC now, because it belongs to Hasbro.
> *




Others have corrected me on that as well.  I should have said, "bad for D&D" rather than bad for business.    

The company I work for is also unusual because it's private and owned by a non-profit organization, as another poster had me realize in this thread. 

Oh well, time will tell all. 

G'night folks.


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## WizarDru (Sep 8, 2002)

Nathal said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Where is Shorecon? Is there a website? I've heard of it before...it's in Jersey right? *





Yup, in Cherry Hill.  Here's the link to their website:

http://www.completestrategygaming.com/

Lots of fun to be had, my poor RPGA experience notwithstanding.


----------

