# Swordmages and half-orcs hit the streets!



## Dm_from_Brazil (Jun 25, 2008)

I just received the RPGA adventure "Return to the Moathouse" (by Mike Mearls), which I ´m going to DM at a local event... and there IS  playable SWORDMAGE character, AND a half-orc NPC...
< Ok, the half-orc NPC is useless, as a fountain of information, as it is also  a "half-elemental" creature, and don´t have no identifiable "orkish" features - but still, it means that they don´t totally give up in the half-orc race "because it implies a very bad backstory" >

Anyway, here are the SWORDMAGE powers (it´s a 5th level character):

 At-Will Powers:

Aegis of Shielding 
Swordmage Feature
You create an arcane link between you and a foe, allowing you to instantly
respond to its attacks with a counterassault.
At-Will ✦ Arcane, Teleportation
Minor Action Close burst 2
Target: One creature in burst
Effect: You mark the target. The target remains marked until you use
this power against another target. If you mark other creatures using
other powers, the target is still marked. A creature can be subject to
only one mark at a time. A new mark supersedes a mark that was
already in place.
If your marked target makes an attack that doesn’t include you
as a target, it takes a ---2 penalty to attack rolls. If that attack hits and the attacker is within 10 squares of you, you can use an immediate
interrupt to reduce the damage dealt by that attack to any one
creature by 9 points.

Booming Blade 
Swordmage Attack 1
A field of sound punishes your enemy, and it becomes louder if your enemy
tries to escape.
At-Will ✦ Arcane, Thunder, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: +9 vs. AC
Hit: 1d8 + 5 damage, and if the target is adjacent to you at the start
of its turn and moves away, it takes 1d6 + 4 thunder damage.

Sword Burst 
Swordmage Attack 1
A sweep of your sword blasts those around you with force.
At-Will ✦ Arcane, Force, Implement
Standard Action Close burst 1
Target: Each enemy in burst
Attack: +6 vs. Reflex
Hit: 1d6 + 4 force damage.

Encounter Powers:

Chilling Blow 
Swordmage Attack 1
Your blade rips into your foe and cold pulses from the wound, enveloping
your enemy’s body in a crust of frost.
Encounter ✦ Arcane, Cold, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: +9 vs. AC
Hit: 1d8 + 5 cold damage, and the target takes 4 cold damage each
time it attacks until the start of your next turn.

Corrosive Ruin 
Swordmage Attack 3
You spin your blade in a tight circle in front of you, assailing foes with a
spray of flesh-melting acid.
Encounter ✦ Acid, Arcane, Weapon
Standard Action Close blast 3
Target: Each creature in blast
Attack: +9 vs. Fortitude
Hit: 1d8 + 5 acid damage.

Dimensional Warp 
Swordmage Utility 2
You reach out with arcane power, and two of your nearby allies suddenly
wink out and reappear in each other’s places.
Encounter ✦ Arcane, Teleportation
Minor Action Close burst 3
Targets: You and one ally in burst or two allies in burst
Effect: Each target teleports into the other’s space. Both targets
must occupy the same size space, or the power fails.

Daily Powers:

Frost Backlash 
Swordmage Attack 1
As your enemy swings for the kill, your warding suddenly turns to ice and
lashes out at your foe with the fury of winter.
Daily ✦ Arcane, Cold, Weapon
Immediate Interrupt Melee weapon
Trigger: An adjacent creature hits you
Target: The creature that hit you
Attack: +9 vs. Reflex
Hit: 3d8 + 5 cold damage.
Miss: Half damage.

Lingering Lightning 
Swordmage Attack 5
Tendrils of bluish white lightning course from your blade to electrocute
your enemies.
Daily ✦ Arcane, Lightning, Weapon
Standard Action Ranged 5
Target: One, two, or three creatures
Attack: +9 vs. Reflex, one attack per target
Hit: 1d8 + 5 damage, and ongoing 5 lightning damage (save ends).
Miss: Half damage, and no ongoing damage 

ENJOY!

DM_from_Brazil


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## Boarstorm (Jun 25, 2008)

Yay!  Thanks!

Edit: Is this, by chance, the moathouse from Temple of Elemental Evil?


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## Cadfan (Jun 25, 2008)

Interesting.  Frost Backlash is very good.  Its a level 1 daily that appears to do 3[W]+stat, uses weapon bonuses to attack a defense, and functions as an immediate interrupt.


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## Byronic (Jun 25, 2008)

Interesting. Could you tell me what the characters name is? And what her attributes are and weapon (that way we can try and deduce her primary and secondary attributes).

Anyway, thanks, this is highly interesting.


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## Palladion (Jun 25, 2008)

Excellent, excellent, I plan to play a swordmage in an upcoming Forgotten Realms campaign, any information is great.  Which ability score does the swordmage seem to use for its powers?


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## blargney the second (Jun 25, 2008)

That's pretty cool!  Thanks for the scoop!
-blarg


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## Rechan (Jun 25, 2008)

The most interesting thing to me is the mark ability - reduce damage. Very defender-ish. Also the "Do damage if you move away from me".


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## Tony Vargas (Jun 25, 2008)

Dm_from_Brazil said:
			
		

> , it means that they don´t totally give up in the half-orc race "because it implies a very bad backstory"



 That's a lame excuse.   In one setting I used, half-orcs in one region were commonly the result of human settlers taking orcish wives - because life there was so harsh that human brides weren't readily available, while orcish ones apreciated the gentler treatment they got from human husbands.  Of course, orcs were more like neanderthals than monsters in that setting.  Contrarily, half-elves, called 'changelings,' were commonly believed to be hateful fey left in place of babies stolen by elves.  A backstory is only as bad as you want it to be.  You are just making it up, afterall.


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## Stormtalon (Jun 25, 2008)

I would presume that the Swordmage is a Human, yes?  That's the only way I can see having 3 At-Will powers....

Wait -- strike that; I see that the first one is a class feature and not a genuine at-will from the main power list.  

Righto, then.  This post is now Officially Pointless(tm).


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## Dm_from_Brazil (Jun 25, 2008)

*More on Swordmages*

1) Yes, the Moathouse in the adventure IS the ToEE moathouse - some a Beatiful cleric even makes a special appearance...   

2) The Swordmage is a Dwarf, with the following attributes:
STR 12 
CON 19
DEX 10
INT 17
WIS 14
CHA 08

2)The basic attack:
+1 longsword  / +7 vs. AC / 1d8+3
Note: have Wapon Focus:Longsword feat, already added to above number

3)AND there is a class feature: Swordmage Warding (INT bounus to AC, iwith one hand free; if rendered unconscious, shield fades and can be restored  after a short rest)


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## blargney the second (Jun 25, 2008)

Woah, 2xInt to AC in light armor?  There's the high water mark for AC... sounds like fun!


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## Stormtalon (Jun 25, 2008)

Time to deconstruct basic attack at least:

+7: +2 (level), +3 (longsword prof), +1 (enh), +1 (stat).  So, that's still based on Str.  

Let's look at powers.

Booming Blade is +9 vs AC.  I'd expect the extra +2 is from stat bonus, so that points at Int.

Sword Burst (+6 vs Ref) has Implement instead of Weapon, so it loses the +3 longsword prof bonus.  Again, points at Int.

Chilling Blow & Corrosive Ruin are also +9, as are Frost Backlash and Lingering Lightning; all-in-all, a persuasive case for Int being the primary attack stat for at least this particular Swordmage build.  High Con is due to being a dwarf; looks like the character put 16 in each of Int and Con (and has put the level 4 +1 to two stats in 'em as well).


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## OchreJelly (Jun 25, 2008)

this is great, thanks for this.  I can already tell this will be a popular class. It even gets me thinking about some multi-class dips


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## Mengu (Jun 25, 2008)

Taking a stab at deconstructing (Intelligence and Constitution seem to be key stats):

 At-Will Powers:

Aegis of Shielding 
Swordmage Feature
You create an arcane link between you and a foe, allowing you to instantly
respond to its attacks with a counterassault.
At-Will ✦ Arcane, Teleportation
Minor Action Close burst 2
Target: One creature in burst
Effect: You mark the target. The target remains marked until you use
this power against another target. If you mark other creatures using
other powers, the target is still marked. A creature can be subject to
only one mark at a time. A new mark supersedes a mark that was
already in place.
If your marked target makes an attack that doesn’t include you
as a target, it takes a ---2 penalty to attack rolls. If that attack hits and the attacker is within 10 squares of you, you can use an immediate
interrupt to reduce the damage dealt by that attack to any one
creature by 6+Int points.

Booming Blade 
Swordmage Attack 1
A field of sound punishes your enemy, and it becomes louder if your enemy
tries to escape.
At-Will ✦ Arcane, Thunder, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Intelligence vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Intelligence damage, and if the target is adjacent to you at the start
of its turn and moves away, it takes 1d6 + Constitution thunder damage.

Sword Burst 
Swordmage Attack 1
A sweep of your sword blasts those around you with force.
At-Will ✦ Arcane, Force, Implement
Standard Action Close burst 1
Target: Each enemy in burst
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Hit: 1d6 + Intelligence force damage.

Encounter Powers:

Chilling Blow 
Swordmage Attack 1
Your blade rips into your foe and cold pulses from the wound, enveloping
your enemy’s body in a crust of frost.
Encounter ✦ Arcane, Cold, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Intelligence vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Intelligence cold damage, and the target takes cold damage equal to your Constitution bonus each
time it attacks until the start of your next turn.

Corrosive Ruin 
Swordmage Attack 3
You spin your blade in a tight circle in front of you, assailing foes with a
spray of flesh-melting acid.
Encounter ✦ Acid, Arcane, Weapon
Standard Action Close blast 3
Target: Each creature in blast
Attack: Intelligence vs. Fortitude
Hit: 1d8 + Intelligence acid damage.

Dimensional Warp 
Swordmage Utility 2
You reach out with arcane power, and two of your nearby allies suddenly
wink out and reappear in each other’s places.
Encounter ✦ Arcane, Teleportation
Minor Action Close burst 3
Targets: You and one ally in burst or two allies in burst
Effect: Each target teleports into the other’s space. Both targets
must occupy the same size space, or the power fails.

Daily Powers:

Frost Backlash 
Swordmage Attack 1
As your enemy swings for the kill, your warding suddenly turns to ice and
lashes out at your foe with the fury of winter.
Daily ✦ Arcane, Cold, Weapon
Immediate Interrupt Melee weapon
Trigger: An adjacent creature hits you
Target: The creature that hit you
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Hit: 3[W] + Intelligence cold damage.
Miss: Half damage.

Lingering Lightning 
Swordmage Attack 5
Tendrils of bluish white lightning course from your blade to electrocute
your enemies.
Daily ✦ Arcane, Lightning, Weapon
Standard Action Ranged 5
Target: One, two, or three creatures
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex, one attack per target
Hit: 1[W] + Intelligence damage, and ongoing 5 lightning damage (save ends).
Miss: Half damage, and no ongoing damage


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## Kraydak (Jun 25, 2008)

Dm_from_Brazil said:
			
		

> 1)
> ...
> 3)AND there is a class feature: Swordmage Warding (INT bounus to AC, iwith one hand free; if rendered unconscious, shield fades and can be restored  after a short rest)




*That* won't be in the final version (or if it is, all the other defenders just became obsolete).

I wouldn't expect the above Marking mechanic to make it into the final version either, the amount of damage mitigated is absurdly high.


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## ryryguy (Jun 25, 2008)

I'm interested in the "half-elemental" features of the half-orc, can you give any details about that?


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## Palladion (Jun 25, 2008)

If you have read _Swordmage_ by Richard Baker, you can see a few of these abilities described, teleportation and magical shielding come to mind.  It also includes the concept of encounter vs. daily powers.  The main character sure does not act like his main ability score is Intelligence though...


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## The Little Raven (Jun 25, 2008)

Palladion said:
			
		

> The main character sure does not act like his main ability score is Intelligence though...




Smart people do stupid things all the time.


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## Dragonbait (Jun 25, 2008)

Mourn said:
			
		

> Smart people do stupid things all the time.



They're called player characters!


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## Tao (Jun 25, 2008)

Dm_from_Brazil said:
			
		

> I just received the RPGA adventure "Return to the Moathouse" (by Mike Mearls), which I ´m going to DM at a local event... and there IS  playable SWORDMAGE character, AND a half-orc NPC...
> < Ok, the half-orc NPC is useless, as a fountain of information, as it is also  a "half-elemental" creature, and don´t have no identifiable "orkish" features - but still, it means that they don´t totally give up in the half-orc race "because it implies a very bad backstory" >
> 
> ...
> ...




First of all... thank you for sharing.  

Second of all... how'd you get so lucky???  I can't seem to be able to download that particular event?  Are you at Origins, perhaps?  Or are you just exceptionally awesome?

EDIT:  NM.  I just noticed the convention release date was different from the retail date.


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## lostpike (Jun 25, 2008)

What armor proficiencies did he have?


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## Rith the Wanderer (Jun 25, 2008)

Kraydak said:
			
		

> *That* won't be in the final version (or if it is, all the other defenders just became obsolete).
> 
> I wouldn't expect the above Marking mechanic to make it into the final version either, the amount of damage mitigated is absurdly high.




Maybe the shield doesn't stack with armor (like old mage armow). That would seem to balance out with other defenders (actually a little lower?) except he wouldn't be armored.  The damage reduction is pretty ridiculous, but maybe theres some detail that were missing that leads to a more balanced ability.


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## Wish (Jun 25, 2008)

Kraydak said:
			
		

> *That* won't be in the final version (or if it is, all the other defenders just became obsolete).
> 
> I wouldn't expect the above Marking mechanic to make it into the final version either, the amount of damage mitigated is absurdly high.




I don't know, doesn't seem that high.  A paladin can get 8 (plate) + 2 (shield), and +2 reflex (shield).  A swordmage can get 3 (hide) + 4 Int (shield) + 4 Int (stat).  So the paladin gets 10 AC, 2 Ref, the swordmage 11 AC.

Higher levels, figure 14 (plate) +6 (enhancement) + 2 shield for 22 AC and 2 Reflex for the paladin.  5 (hide) + 6 (enhancement) + 8 (Int) + 8 (shield) for 27 AC.

That's pretty marginal at first level, decent at high level (I'm assuming a Demigod for the stat boost for the swordmage), but still only 3 better in total defense for the swordmage, even with the Demigod boost.  If you go to 28th+ level, the swordmage pulls a little further ahead, I guess.


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## epochrpg (Jun 25, 2008)

Why would anyone playing a swordmage not be an Eladrin?  A feat for +2 damage with swords and +2 int?  Can we say "no-brainer?"


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## Byronic (Jun 25, 2008)

epochrpg said:
			
		

> Why would anyone playing a swordmage not be an Eladrin?  A feat for +2 damage with swords and +2 int?  Can we say "no-brainer?"




A masochistic streak. Random class/race generation. Because Halflings make them jolly.


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## rhm001 (Jun 25, 2008)

epochrpg said:
			
		

> Why would anyone playing a swordmage not be an Eladrin?  A feat for +2 damage with swords and +2 int?  Can we say "no-brainer?"




The Dex will help with Heavy Blade feats, too. But it depends on how useful Con is. If it helps out the damage (or other aspects of the attacks) enough, you may very well see a decent number of dwarf and half-elf swordmages. Both will get better Fort and Will defenses, unlike the Eldarin; the dwarf is still a great defender, and has an equal damage bump feat, while a swordmage's Int focus means the half-elf is set up to pick up Commander's Strike or a wizard spell, both of which would be nice.


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## Mengu (Jun 25, 2008)

epochrpg said:
			
		

> Why would anyone playing a swordmage not be an Eladrin?  A feat for +2 damage with swords and +2 int?  Can we say "no-brainer?"



With the snippet of the class we've seen, yes you can say no brainer. When we see more, who knows... I could show someone a halfling rogue build (like KotSF Rogue), and they would likely say, why would anyone playing a rogue, not be a halfling?


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## lostpike (Jun 25, 2008)

and from what i am seeing Wizard of the Spiral Tower seems like it will work well with this!


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## Rechan (Jun 25, 2008)

epochrpg said:
			
		

> Why would anyone playing a swordmage not be an Eladrin?  A feat for +2 damage with swords and +2 int?  Can we say "no-brainer?"



Because there might be a charisma build. Which might then question "Why would anyone being a swordmage NOT be a half-elf or a tiefling or a..."


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## Rechan (Jun 25, 2008)

Kraydak said:
			
		

> *That* won't be in the final version (or if it is, all the other defenders just became obsolete).
> 
> I wouldn't expect the above Marking mechanic to make it into the final version either, the amount of damage mitigated is absurdly high.



Well they need to fix the damn thing quick, because it comes out in a few months.


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## Kraydak (Jun 25, 2008)

epochrpg said:
			
		

> Why would anyone playing a swordmage not be an Eladrin?  A feat for +2 damage with swords and +2 int?  Can we say "no-brainer?"




Because the racial feat is only superior to Weapon Focus in the Heroic tier (and worse in the Epic tier)?  Because there are other +int races out there?  Because the Swordmage may well have a decent number of self-teleports as class-utilities and wants a racial ability that doesn't overlap with his class abilities?


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## Mirtek (Jun 25, 2008)

epochrpg said:
			
		

> Why would anyone playing a swordmage not be an Eladrin?  A feat for +2 damage with swords and +2 int?  Can we say "no-brainer?"



Not everyone wants to push everything zo the limit. Some people simply like race X and class Y and do not care that race z is more powerfull for class Y and that race x is even weaker than the norm for class Y


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## keterys (Jun 25, 2008)

Definitely gnome - I mean, mark someone like that, then go invisible? Classic.


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## Rechan (Jun 25, 2008)

keterys said:
			
		

> Definitely gnome - I mean, mark someone like that, then go invisible? Classic.



You have to be hit to go invisible, I believe.


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## keterys (Jun 25, 2008)

Correct.


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## wayne62682 (Jun 25, 2008)

Wow... I want to play one.  Right now.  I love characters who can meld magic and combat, and this sounds AWESOME.


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## Leatherhead (Jun 25, 2008)

More INT and CON based abilities? Excellent. 
Now if only we had a few more DEX and CHA powers.


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## GoodKingJayIII (Jun 26, 2008)

Well, those defensive abilities look good... really good.

I think the Fighter will still hold a nice place by being able to mark multiple foes.  But Swordmages and Paladins... could be a tough choice.


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## TheNovaLord (Jun 26, 2008)

the dwarf swordmage (19 CON) also has 63hp which is pretty good!! and its also 7 more than the 17 CON fighter

and the swordmage has the best AC of the 6 supplied PC's


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## Jhaelen (Jun 26, 2008)

Dm_from_Brazil said:
			
		

> 3)AND there is a class feature: Swordmage Warding (INT bounus to AC, iwith one hand free; if rendered unconscious, shield fades and can be restored  after a short rest)



Unless there is some additional limitation this is totally overpowered.

If there isn't:
The first new class we get to see and it's already broken? Not a good sign for the upcoming splatbooks...

Well, luckily the class will be in the FR campaign setting, so it's not something I'm going to buy or use anyway.


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## ascendance (Jun 26, 2008)

I think we now know why the Githyanki have +2 Con and +2 Int - those are clearly the prime requisites for the Swordmage class, and Githyanki are going to by far make the best Swordmages.


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## Atlatl Jones (Jun 26, 2008)

Wish said:
			
		

> Higher levels, figure 14 (plate) +6 (enhancement) + 2 shield for 22 AC and 2 Reflex for the paladin.  5 (hide) + 6 (enhancement) + 8 (Int) + 8 (shield) for 27 AC.
> 
> That's pretty marginal at first level, decent at high level (I'm assuming a Demigod for the stat boost for the swordmage), but still only 3 better in total defense for the swordmage, even with the Demigod boost.



A character who started with an 18 Int can have a +8 Int bonus at 28th level even without the demigod bonus.  A character who starts with an Int of 20 and has the demigod destiny can have an Int bonus of +10 by 28th level.  That would give your example a 31 AC bonus, which is just plain broken.

I'm amazed that they would double the Int bonus instead of just giving a set bonus.  Doubling a stat bonus cannot help but mess with the underlying math, dramatically altering the expected progression of AC values.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if, in the final version, it's something like a straight +4 bonus.


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## Khaim (Jun 26, 2008)

Atlatl Jones said:
			
		

> I'm amazed that they would double the Int bonus instead of just giving a set bonus.  Doubling a stat bonus cannot help but mess with the underlying math, dramatically altering the expected progression of AC values.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if, in the final version, it's something like a straight +4 bonus.




That's still really good, unless it totally replaces armor. See, Dex/Int heavy characters in Hide are roughly equal to guys in Plate. If you max out Dex or Int as much as is possible, the light armor actually exceeds Plate anyways. Giving them a +4 bonus on top of that is just sick. By the way, the classes with Dex or Int as their attack stats are naturally good because of this- the same stat controls both their attack and defense, so they get lots of utility out of it.


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## Rechan (Jun 26, 2008)

Considering how messed up the pregens have been out of WotC, I woudln't be surprised if it's riddled with errors.


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## Otterscrubber (Jun 26, 2008)

Dm_from_Brazil said:
			
		

> I just received the RPGA adventure "Return to the Moathouse" (by Mike Mearls), which I ´m going to DM at a local event... and there IS  playable SWORDMAGE character, AND a half-orc NPC...
> < Ok, the half-orc NPC is useless, as a fountain of information, as it is also  a "half-elemental" creature, and don´t have no identifiable "orkish" features - but still, it means that they don´t totally give up in the half-orc race "because it implies a very bad backstory" >
> 
> Anyway, here are the SWORDMAGE powers (it´s a 5th level character):
> ...




Interesting, they get an at-will power equal to a ranger encounter (Dire Wolverine) power, and it is against Reflex and not AC.  That hardly seems fair.  I hope this is not the first of many broken splat powers to come.....or that I am reading this wrong.


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## Zsig (Jun 26, 2008)

Otterscrubber said:
			
		

> Interesting, they get an at-will power equal to a ranger encounter (Dire Wolverine) power, and it is against Reflex and not AC.  That hardly seems fair.  I hope this is not the first of many broken splat powers to come.....or that I am reading this wrong.




It has the Implement keyword, and not Weapon keyword. 

Which means, you don't get to add prof. bonus to attack, that justifies the "vs Reflex".

If it's broken? I have no idea.

All I know is that when I first heard about Swordmages I didn't give a damn... now all of a sudden, I want to play one.


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## small pumpkin man (Jun 26, 2008)

> Aegis of Shielding
> Swordmage Feature
> You create an arcane link between you and a foe, allowing you to instantly
> respond to its attacks with a counterassault.
> At-Will ✦ Arcane, Teleportation



This is, well, wierd. Do you teleport over there, half block the strike and teleport back? Do you teleport your weapon? I guess my question is, why does it have the teleportation keyword? Why doesn't it just themed tie the target up with webbing or thunder which hinders it's strikes/magic?

If it actually teleported you next to the the target, that would be cool, but it doesn't seem to, so I don't understand why it has the teleportation keyword. Not a big deal, just strange.



			
				Otterscrubber said:
			
		

> Interesting, they get an at-will power equal to a ranger encounter (Dire Wolverine) power, and it is against Reflex and not AC.  That hardly seems fair.  I hope this is not the first of many broken splat powers to come.....or that I am reading this wrong.



It's not "equal", as it does two or three points less damage, and the targeting reflex is offset by the implement keyword. It does seem to be pushing the power level of non-controller at-wills, allthough I would call it "power creep" more than outright broken.


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## bjorn2bwild (Jun 26, 2008)

Otterscrubber said:
			
		

> Interesting, they get an at-will power equal to a ranger encounter (Dire Wolverine) power, and it is against Reflex and not AC.  That hardly seems fair.  I hope this is not the first of many broken splat powers to come.....or that I am reading this wrong.




Well it's an implement power, not a weapon power, so in order to use it effectively at later levels, the swordmage is going to have expend a bunch of actions that round or lose that extra AC bonus everyone keeps talking about (requires a free hand).  --this is assuming that swordmages can't use thier swords as implements.

As far as we know, It's less damage than Dire Wolverine could be (1d4 vs 1[w]).

And, um, if you don't like this one what are your thoughts on Thunderwave-- the wizard at-will that does more damage to a potentially larger amount of targets AND pushes bad guys away?

edit--ninja'd!


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## Zsig (Jun 26, 2008)

small pumpkin man said:
			
		

> This is, well, wierd. Do you teleport over there, half block the strike and teleport back? Do you teleport your weapon? I guess my question is, why does it have the teleportation keyword? Why doesn't it just themed tie the target up with webbing or thunder which hinders it's strikes/magic?
> 
> If it actually teleported you next to the the target, that would be cool, but it doesn't seem to, so I don't understand why it has the teleportation keyword. Not a big deal, just strange.




Who said you don't Teleport? For all it's worth it could be you teleport next to ally to intercept foe's attack and then quickly teleports back to origin so fast that no one would even notice!

Now, to be completely honest, I don't get the Teleport keyword either...


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## Otterscrubber (Jun 26, 2008)

bjorn2bwild said:
			
		

> And, um, if you don't like this one what are your thoughts on Thunderwave-- the wizard at-will that does more damage to a potentially larger amount of targets AND pushes bad guys away?
> 
> edit--ninja'd!




Well, thunderweave has its drawbacks in that once your melee fighters engage opponents you may not want them to be pushed as it will mess up flanking and whatnot.  We've only used it once in an adventure after our wizard leveled up and decided to take it, and when he used it he messed up a lot of positioning and made the fight a lot tougher for us actually.  Monsters I've noticed seem to have all sorts of cool shifting abilities. But like I said that was just one instance, can't claim to have used it enough to be sure of its usefulness.


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## small pumpkin man (Jun 26, 2008)

Otterscrubber said:
			
		

> Well, thunderweave has its drawbacks in that once your melee fighters engage opponents you may not want them to be pushed as it will mess up flanking and whatnot.  We've only used it once in an adventure after our wizard leveled up and decided to take it, and when he used it he messed up a lot of positioning and made the fight a lot tougher for us actually.  Monsters I've noticed seem to have all sorts of cool shifting abilities. But like I said that was just one instance, can't claim to have used it enough to be sure of its usefulness.



You don't have to push people with thunderwave(or any other power) if you don't want to, or you can push them, but less than the maximum amount if you want.

The only response to "thunderwave is better than Dire Wolverine" I have is that area effects are a controllers "schtik", so the Ranger is giving up damage to get some controller abilities.

That and Dire Wolverine Strike just isn't very good. The only time it does more damage than Two Fanged Strike is when you're surrounded by three or more creatures, and unless they're minions, Evasive Strike is probably better in that situation anyway. (and if they ARE minions, I'd most often not want to waste my encounter power on them because twin strike and an at will blast from an actual controller works better anyway)


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## catsclaw227 (Jun 26, 2008)

Here's the blurb  about the adventure on Wizard's website:


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## Black Flame Zealot (Jun 27, 2008)

I created the character. It was based on a miniature from the upcoming Against the Giants set (it's a cool-looking dwarf in light armor with a longsword; he's technically not a swordmage, but he certainly looks the part).

I'm 99% certain that the swordmage's bonuses are all correct based on the document I had when I created him. I did a couple of playtests with the characters, had a couple folks in the office look at them, and did 3 cross-checks to make sure the bonuses were right.

I'm surprised no one's found the other new information yet on the character sheets...


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## Black Flame Zealot (Jun 27, 2008)

catsclaw227 said:


> Here's the blurb  about the adventure on Wizard's website:




Note that this is a stand-alone adventure, so if you have a group with RPGA numbers, you can order it and test it out. Mike also wrote it for us, and it's playing here at Origins right now. Tons 'o fun with a surprise ending.


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## Rechan (Jun 27, 2008)

Black Flame Zealot said:


> I'm 99% certain that the swordmage's bonuses are all correct based on the document I had when I created him. I did a couple of playtests with the characters, had a couple folks in the office look at them, and did 3 cross-checks to make sure the bonuses were right.
> 
> I'm surprised no one's found the other new information yet on the character sheets...




So then can you explain the AC wackiness? 

I do however appreciate your diligence in making sure the numbers are right.


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## Old Gumphrey (Jun 27, 2008)

And the negating of almost 10 damage any time a specific monster attacks?


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## Black Flame Zealot (Jun 27, 2008)

I really don't want to go into calculations used for the final numbers at this point. Suffice to say, I know the AC and damage negation are correct from the copy that I possess.


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## Cryptos (Jun 27, 2008)

Dm_from_Brazil said:


> At-Will Powers:
> 
> Aegis of Shielding
> Swordmage Feature
> ...




I don't get why this has the Teleportation keyword.

1) Target is marked.  Standard fine print on the mark.
2) If target attacks someone else, -2 to attack rolls.  Standard defendery effect.
3) If it does attack and hits, you reduce the damage dealt by the marked target's attack by X damage.

Did I miss a teleportation effect somewhere?


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## epochrpg (Jun 27, 2008)

Cryptos said:


> I don't get why this has the Teleportation keyword.
> 
> 1) Target is marked.  Standard fine print on the mark.
> 2) If target attacks someone else, -2 to attack rolls.  Standard defendery effect.
> ...




yes, you teleport in front of them, parry the attack, and teleport back to your space.


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## the_redbeard (Jun 27, 2008)

lostpike said:


> and from what i am seeing Wizard of the Spiral Tower seems like it will work well with this!




Race: Githyanki as folks have pointed out.

Class:  Infernal Warlock - multi-classing to Swordmage.

I'm thinking that the Warlock's temp hit points and cursing with whatever the swordmage MC ability is, and a few of the sword mage defender powers could be a nice combo.

Use your pact blade as your implement.  Your cursed opponent gets damaged from the plus and your curse when he attacks you.

Infernal warlock has nifty powers that provoke damage when attacked.  Could be good.  Con and Int are primaries - looks similar here.

Have to spend some feats on getting armor.

Stats something like:

Str: 12
Con: 16+2=18
Dex: 8 
Int: 16+2=18
Wis: 12
Cha: 10

Or, if you want to get the Blade Opportunists feats (serious MAD to do so):
(starting stats only)
Str: 14
Con: 15+2=17
Dex: 13
Int: 15+2=17
Wis: 10
Cha: 8

Will defense sucks, and perception sucks.  But you're all the deadlier up close because you'll have more effective opportunity attacks.


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## Ginnel (Jun 27, 2008)

The adding your int as an AC bonus seems just plain wrong, and after they got AC balance so right, where hide + maxxed stat + shield = plate + shield 

(As a note I'm not including any level adjustments here at all as they are all consistent)

the extra AC from the int will put it over the maxed stat + hide + shield 

because AC bonus from shield < AC bonus from a maxxed stat by about a maximum of 8 we can see, if the AC bonus replaces that gained by armor but not the armor's +'s It would be more in line

Hide with maxed stat with shield = (5 +6) + 10 + 2 = 23
Plate + shield = (14 + 6) + 2 = 22
Hide + maxed statx2 = (5+6) + (2x10) = 31

Now if the AC bonus from the actual armor didn't count but its magic enchancement bonus did we get

enchancement bonus + maxed statx2 = 6 + (2x10) = 26 

still a bit too strong for my liking hang on what about feats say the feat bonus for AC didn't work for this spellsword as well but it did for the other two types, thats another 1AC!?

Hide = 24AC
Plate = 23 AC
spellsword o doom defence = 26

its in the ballpark but would need a load of errata, I'd make the bonus static +1 at heroic +2 at paragon and +3 at Epic

leading to an overall AC of 25 at max level with the hide armor feat compared to the + 24 of hide and + 23 of plate.

Of course this is assuming maximum stats, So maybe the with my fixed AC bonus of warding the spellsword deserves that higher AC (bear in mind they get a high reflex out of this as well and damage and to hit out of this stat if it goes anything like we think it does)
a non maxed int spellsword is still comparable if he partly focus on it as well, no demi god bonus, will put him equal to a maxxed out hide user, and dropping another 2 points would make him equal to a plate sword and board user. 

Meh this is just a thought exercise nothing to get worked up about yet 

To Black Flame Zealot, I'm sure they worked out for you in playtest at that level but the math seems to see it spiral out of control in later levels, bear in mind that all this ward is replacing is the shield bonus (cause you need a spare hand, though maybe ditch sword and use a shield as well?  ) and if that bonus can go above the max for a shield which is 2 then it out powers it (no need to include the shield feat bonus as it doesn't stack with the armor specialisation feat) as otherwise lightarmor and int/dex maxed = plate armor round about in AC terms


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## generalhenry (Jun 27, 2008)

nvm, you factored that in...


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## Dalamar (Jun 27, 2008)

Well, a balancing act could be if the swordmage has only cloth proficiency while being a defender.


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## Ginnel (Jun 27, 2008)

Dalamar said:


> Well, a balancing act could be if the swordmage has only cloth proficiency while being a defender.




Hide = 24AC
Plate = 23 AC
spellsword o doom defence = 26

I factored that in here, without realising it  EDIT scratch that masterwork cloth gives +2 AC armor bonus making it 28 AC overall nah too much


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## DemonLord57 (Jun 27, 2008)

Dalamar said:


> Well, a balancing act could be if the swordmage has only cloth proficiency while being a defender.




That wouldn't matter at all. Getting Leather proficiency is one feat without prereqs, and Hide prof wouldn't be very hard at all... and even beyond that, it's still broken...


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## Orci (Jun 27, 2008)

On the sheet it says +3 and not +INT

so the +INT is a guess by the original poster... Perhaps it is just a fixed +3 bonus...


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## Ginnel (Jun 27, 2008)

on a side note it'd be quite cool if the monk class had a dexterity and wis bonus to AC and couldn't use any armor or shields

this would lead to hmm 2 16's? which would max out as +9 each so that would be 18 AC +2 for the masterwork cloth + 6 for the enchancement bonus 26 overall bonus, still overpowered? I think not because that would leave his strength woefully low, lets say his main stat is Str for attack, with nice supplements for dex and wis, Wow sounding more and more like a fighter, but its what works ; )

well who knows


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## Ginnel (Jun 27, 2008)

Orci said:


> On the sheet it says +3 and not +INT
> 
> so the +INT is a guess by the original poster... Perhaps it is just a fixed +3 bonus...




that would be cool, like wielding a +1 to defence shield (which don't exist do they?) without taking up a bracers slot, I'm gonna call the 5min to get it back up (f'nar f'nar) as equal to a non spellsword losing his shield but being able to pick one up straight away if ones around.

So better than a plate fighter and a dex dealing light armor user  

In my opinion they have to be really careful with power creep, I absolutely and I mean absolutely hate it, and it would be counterintuitive to what looks to be one of 4th editions main strength, balance.

Just to reitterate Power creep = bad, in terms of game design, your base classes should be just as powerful as ones which come out 5 years down the line


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## krownhunter07 (Jun 27, 2008)

Can we see the other stats for the Swordmage please? AC total, Defenses and the like... or maybe they are posted and I missed them...?

Thanks in advance. All in all I like it. 

Static +3 for the warding seems about right.


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## GMforPowergamers (Jun 27, 2008)

> Aegis of Shielding
> Swordmage Feature
> You create an arcane link between you and a foe, allowing you to instantly
> respond to its attacks with a counterassault.
> ...




9 pts... 5+ con mod....5+1/2 level???

The teleport keyword has me scratching my head also...

As for the AC I don't see a proble with it being +3...but Int mod might be too much


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## Boarstorm (Jun 27, 2008)

Black Flame Zealot said:


> I'm surprised no one's found the other new information yet on the character sheets...




Well, maybe if someone would be so kind as to post said sheets on the WotC homepage...

*evil grin*

... or maybe I'm just bitter 'cuz I can't figure out how this whole RPGA thing works and my herald-level DM card just sits in my back pocket for lack of use.


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## Ryuujin (Jun 27, 2008)

I suspect that the int bonus from the shield ward, if it is indeed based on int, would probably only be applicable if the swordmage is wearing no armor, or maybe as much as cloth armor just like the monk variant of the ranger.


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## Boarstorm (Jun 27, 2008)

Ryuujin said:


> I suspect that the int bonus from the shield ward, if it is indeed based on int, would probably only be applicable if the swordmage is wearing no armor, or maybe as much as cloth armor just like the monk variant of the ranger.




I suspect that the int bonus is an ARMOR bonus, so it simply doesn't stack with armor, but the character may choose to wear, say, hide, just in case he gets denied that bonus for whatever reason.

Edit: Err... didn't mean to phrase the beginning exactly like your comment, Ryuujin.  No mockery intended, just my prediction.


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## Subedei (Jun 27, 2008)

Bah!  I absolutely hate this class.  It just doesn't look nearly as well designed as any of the PHB classes.

The sword shouldn't double as their implement.  Why not model them after their divine counterpart, the Paladin, and have a sword enchantment that allows them to use it as an implement like the Holy Avenger or Pact Blade?  That way you have a choice of using a melee weapon in one hand and an arcane implement (a wand!) in the other, or giving up your weapon special property to add the implement property to your weapon.

Aegis of Shielding is odd.  It's arguably too powerful, it's not cool, and it's not as interesting a mechanic to work with as the Paladin and Fighter challenges.  I'd design it as follows:  When the marked target attacks someone other than you, you can teleport adjacent to them and make a melee basic attack.  

If they really do get twice their int bonus to AC then that is completely broken for obvious reasons.  Starting with a 20 and entering Demigod means you're pretty much _impossible_ to hit on anything but a natural 20.  You can buy whatever armor proficiencies you may or may not lack.  Seriously, you're going to have an AC 9 points higher than a Paladin or Fighter in Plate armor; 11 points higher if they don't use a shield.  Even if it IS just a straight +3 bonus I don't understand why it's 1 point higher than a heavy shield.  Additionally, you may be able to use a shield in your main hand and just rely on something like Wizard or Cleric at-will powers to boost your AC even further.

Finally, and this is clearly a very subjective statement, I don't find most of the powers cool at all.  People play Gish so they can hurl fireballs, teleport around, strike three enemies with a lightning bolt, etc and then mix it up in melee as well.  The idea is that you have all these awesome single target and area of effect ranged magical attacks instead of the bow or throwing ax a normal fighter would carry, and then fight in melee the rest of the time.  

This character doesn't do that, he just has a bunch of elemental effects for his sword.  A warrior-mage _casts spells._


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## Subedei (Jun 27, 2008)

If the Int to AC doesn't stack with armor then it's still a few points out of whack.  Masterwork Hide plus Heavy Shield is +7, while the Swordmage is going to have between +8 and +10.  It's not much terribly out of whack in this case, but it's still out of whack.  And why?  All of the other armor math is perfectly balanced, shouldn't this be too?

Additionally, it's thematically strange.  Why do we now see Swordmages fighting in no armor when Wizards can use Hide?


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## AntlerDruid (Jun 28, 2008)

Wow this class sounds cool - I would love to know what their multiclass feat is like.

Would be great to multiclass my current warlock with this class.


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## GMforPowergamers (Jun 28, 2008)

Askanipsion said:


> Wow this class sounds cool - I would love to know what their multiclass feat is like.
> 
> Would be great to multiclass my current warlock with this class.




I bet it will just give you there mark 1x per encounter just like the other 2 defenders


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## Ryuujin (Jun 28, 2008)

Subedei said:


> If the Int to AC doesn't stack with armor then it's still a few points out of whack.  Masterwork Hide plus Heavy Shield is +7, while the Swordmage is going to have between +8 and +10.  It's not much terribly out of whack in this case, but it's still out of whack.  And why?  All of the other armor math is perfectly balanced, shouldn't this be too?
> 
> Additionally, it's thematically strange.  Why do we now see Swordmages fighting in no armor when Wizards can use Hide?




Honsetly I don't understand what you are saying.  You do realize this is a Defender?  Like the Fighter and Paladin, one who will likely be wearing at least scale, if not plate, and would likely specialize in his chosen armor; and the other who starts with plate and would likewise likely specialize in it.  Godplate, the most likely armor for a defender to wear at the level that the int bonus would be 9 or 10, is 20 points of AC before specialization or shield bonus.

This character will be incapable of wielding a shield, is supposed to be lightly armored at best and if I, and others, are correct will not have this shielding ward stack with any worn armor.  This gives a Demigod, with a maxed int, with a race that grants +2 to int, at the same level a total of +20 to AC.  When you add in a heavy shield, and shield specialization or plate specialization the paladin or plate wearing fighter could fairly easily have 3 more points of AC.

Now I admit that if the Swordmage can wear armor and have its AC stack with this ward, which I highly doubt, it could potentially lead to them having a higher AC than any other Defender, but this would also require a huge investment in regards to their stats.


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## Stogoe (Jun 28, 2008)

Askanipsion said:


> Wow this class sounds cool - I would love to know what their multiclass feat is like.
> 
> Would be great to multiclass my current warlock with this class.




Training in Arcana, and Aegis of Shielding 1/encounter.

Defender - mark ability 1/encounter
Leader - healing ability 1/day
Striker - additional damage 1/encounter
Controller - ???


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## AntlerDruid (Jun 28, 2008)

GMforPowergamers said:


> I bet it will just give you there mark 1x per encounter just like the other 2 defenders




I wonder if you can use a weapon besides a sword for example a sickle.

Is the swordmage going to be in the FR Player's Guide or the Campaign book? I am guessing the Player's which means we will not see the full class for awhile.


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## Zsig (Jun 28, 2008)

I wouldn't jump into conclusions yet as to Constitution being a primary stat for the Swordmage as many people on this thread seems to be implying.

Take a look at the Paladin... no, actually, take a look at the Warlord, Ranger, Cleric, Warlock and the Paladin. They all have at least 2 primary stats that when you select a build makes use of one of them and the other turns out to be rather redundant. 

Just because the pre-gen character has 12 in Strength it doesn't mean that Constitution is a primary stat. In fact, Rich Baker said on that WotC thread (Source) that Swordmages likes Str and Int alike.


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## Knight_Errant (Jun 28, 2008)

Zsig said:


> I wouldn't jump into conclusions yet as to Constitution being a primary stat for the Swordmage as many people on this thread seems to be implying.
> 
> Take a look at the Paladin... no, actually, take a look at the Warlord, Ranger, Cleric, Warlock and the Paladin. They all have at least 2 primary stats that when you select a build makes use of one of them and the other turns out to be rather redundant.
> 
> Just because the pre-gen character has 12 in Strength it doesn't mean that Constitution is a primary stat. In fact, Rich Baker said on that WotC thread (Source) that Swordmages likes Str and Int alike.




I would argee with your statement. I'm betting that the Swordmage will suffer from MAD much as the Paladin and Warlock can. While many of its powers might use Int vs. defense, I would think that Str will still be important since it is a melee class. And I'm pretty sure that what we're seeing in the Dwarf pregen is one particular build of the class; based primarily on Con as its secondary attribute--I'm sure there will be at least one more build based on another attribute; perhaps Wis? The dwarf seems to have some points there as well.


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## ZetaStriker (Jun 28, 2008)

The Dwarf probably has points in Wis to prevent a 10+half level only Will Defense. I think the class has Str and Int and primaries(picking one or the other is the difference between builds), and Con as the secondary. I get the feeling that Con goes into their Aegis-marking power's damage reduction(5+Con), and probably boosts some powers the way secondary stats do for other classes.


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## Destil (Jun 28, 2008)

I'd really hope the shielding bonus is a +2, and this sordmage took a feat to increase that to +3 as well as get something else small and cool...

And here's hoping for Con and Int, with some kicker effects from Cha and a definite use for Str (actually, just being in melee you always want either Str or the ability to use another score on a basic attack for opportunity attacks).

I'd disagree that the damage negation is overpowered, though. The fighter can stop an opponent from even getting to the squishy, and paladins can heal the damage dealt in a pinch. This amount of negation looks fine to me at a glance. It most likely dosn't increase much, +3 at Paragon, +3 at epic + stat buffs.


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## Ondo (Jun 28, 2008)

Subedei said:


> People play Gish



"Swordmages aren't 'gishes'" (source).  This was one of the first things the designers ever said about the class.


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## Byronic (Jun 28, 2008)

Ondo said:


> "Swordmages aren't 'gishes'" (source).  This was one of the first things the designers ever said about the class.




What is a "gish" anyway? I thought it was a fighting class that used magic to fight better.


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## FungiMuncher (Jun 28, 2008)

Hey! I can't comment on the mechanics, but I played the dwarft swordmage at Origins. It was a heck of a lot of fun. While he didn't lay the smack down as well as the others, he had an awesome AC and HP. Was able to get up in the monster's faces. The shielding was nice, but didn't feel overpowered.


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## Old Gumphrey (Jun 28, 2008)

You can't set a puppy down and tell me it's a kitty. The swordmage is a gish.


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## Mr. Wilson (Jun 28, 2008)

I went to Origins yesterday and took part in the RPGA's 45 minute dungeon delve for 4E, which basically is just three combat encounters used to teach people the game.

One of the choices we had was the Swordmage (level 1).  Unfortunately, I did not get to play the Swordmage, but I did play the fighter in the party.  We had 5 characters (out of 6): Human Great Sword Fighter, Dwarven Swordmage, Halfing Fey Warlock, Something Staff Wizard (either Human or Half-Elf, I'm not sure which), and Dwarven Cleric (sixth choice was a Elf Brutal Rogue).


Anyways, the two defenders absolutely rock together.  We worked out marks, with the Swordmage taking the heavy hitters, while I marked everything else.   

We only got through the easy encounter and had downed about half of the medium encounter, but I'd welcome the Swordmage at my table.  They were fantastic defenders.  Their daily power is sick.


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## GMforPowergamers (Jun 28, 2008)

Mr. Wilson said:


> I went to Origins yesterday and took part in the RPGA's 45 minute dungeon delve for 4E, which basically is just three combat encounters used to teach people the game.
> ...
> We only got through the easy encounter and had downed about half of the medium encounter, but I'd welcome the Swordmage at my table.  They were fantastic defenders.  Their daily power is sick.




Ok, so did anyone from Origins feel, or hear anyone else feel otherwise? Broken on paper and broken in play are two diffrent things. Monk in 3e looked horrorable broken on paper... in play not so much.  So lets hear dome more from players about how they went before jumping on the Broken powercreep band wagon...


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## Ondo (Jun 28, 2008)

Byronic said:


> What is a "gish" anyway? I thought it was a fighting class that used magic to fight better.



As I understand it, a gish is essentially a combination of Fighter and Wizard; someone who can switch between casting spells and fighting according to the situation.  (So roughly someone who does the things that Subedi is complaining the Swordmage doesn't do.)


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## Destil (Jun 29, 2008)

Byronic said:


> What is a "gish" anyway? I thought it was a fighting class that used magic to fight better.



A Githzeri Fighter/Magic User.


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## grubba2000 (Jun 29, 2008)

from monster manual pg 128



> Githyanki Gish Level 15 Elite Skirmisher
> Githyanki Gish Tactics
> A githyanki gish uses ranged attacks ( force bolt and storm of
> stars) to soften up foes before engaging in melee combat, using
> ...





from DMG pg55


> Use skirmishers as the mobile strikers in an
> encounter, the creatures that move to attack vulnerable
> PCs from the sides and rear. They often have
> powers that let them dart in, attack, and retreat in
> one action.



So the idea of an arcane swordsman playing the defender role? Its not even close to a gish. Also the  "free hand" issue?This guy is isvesting in Con and Int both defensive abilities. Im not amazed by the swordmage im actually disapointed.


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## GMforPowergamers (Jun 29, 2008)

grubba2000 said:


> So the idea of an arcane swordsman playing the defender role? Its not even close to a gish. Also the  "free hand" issue?This guy is isvesting in Con and Int both defensive abilities. Im not amazed by the swordmage im actually disapointed.




Some one earlier posted a link were it was said that this is NOT a gish. but an Arcane Defender...I belive (with no more info then already in this thread) that it is a good start to a gish...a temp stop gap intill we get a striker version of the class (called blade singer in my perfect world).

I belive that a half elf Sword mage with all the multi feats for wizard and dilatant for for eaither eldritch blast or any of the rogue at wills is going to be the default gish build
   with Swordmage/any striker being a close runner up

but I have been wrong before


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## Rechan (Jun 29, 2008)

grubba2000 said:


> from monster manual pg 128
> 
> 
> from DMG pg55
> So the idea of an arcane swordsman playing the defender role? Its not even close to a gish. Also the  "free hand" issue?This guy is isvesting in Con and Int both defensive abilities. Im not amazed by the swordmage im actually disapointed.



To be fair, I'd say a gish is not what the MM or DMG says it is.  

In my experience, a Gish is someone who has attack spells and can still fight. Fireball, and its derivatives, magic missile in a pinch, etc. The duskblade is a good example here.

Someone who uses magic to fight better, I would not call a Gish, just out of personal taste. The magical equivalent of a psychic warrior - casting enlarge on himself, or bull strength, etc. 

The Swordmage skirts the difference given that he has various magical-based attacks that effect areas. Like the acid blast ability, etc.


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## Ander00 (Jun 29, 2008)

> Booming Blade
> Swordmage Attack 1
> ...
> Hit: 1d8 + 5 damage, and if the target is adjacent to you at the start
> of its turn and moves away, it takes *1d6 + 4* thunder damage.



Hrmm, how does that work? Is the secondary effect keyed off wisdom, half of constitution, or some such?

Am I missing something here? This seems to be the only thing that doesn't add up. I mean, it's still part of a power with the weapon keyword, and not a fixed amount of damage, so wouldn't it get the enhancement and weapon focus bonuses?


cheers


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## AllisterH (Jun 29, 2008)

Hmmm..."Fight" well actually mean.

Since 3.x, a rogue "fights" well as does the barbarian and the ranger. So it is no longer the fighter that alone "fights" well.

So, what does a gish actually represent then?

(p.s., anyone's text NOT showing up when they write a response to a thread? Mine's invisible for s ome reason....)
This iss interesting...What does


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## DracoSuave (Jun 29, 2008)

AllisterH said:


> Hmmm..."Fight" well actually mean.
> 
> Since 3.x, a rogue "fights" well as does the barbarian and the ranger. So it is no longer the fighter that alone "fights" well.
> 
> ...





Perhaps the key attribute for the attacks is Con.  His bonus is +4, +1 for the magic, and his prof. bonus might only be +2, add +2 for level, and you get +9.

The second effect might be keyed off of Int, tho, which would explain why it's only +4 for damage.

That'd explain why Con is primary in the build as well.


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## GMforPowergamers (Jun 29, 2008)

I wish I could get my hands on the full sheet...does anyone know if the RPGA will allow that?


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## Ander00 (Jun 29, 2008)

DracoSuave said:


> Perhaps the key attribute for the attacks is Con.  His bonus is +4, +1 for the magic, and his prof. bonus might only be +2, add +2 for level, and you get +9.



Except for the part where he's wielding a +1 longsword.


cheers


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## keterys (Jun 29, 2008)

Given the +1 weapon, Int is clearly used for attack and damage in general.

While it might be 1d6+Con thunder for booming blade, it could also be 1d6 + Int, with a +1 Enhancement or focus bonus.

Guess we'll see soon enough how the swordmage works.


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## Lucas Blackstone (Jun 29, 2008)

I can't help but feel as though the Swordmage's challenge complete overwhelms the paladin Divine Challenge. There's no silly jumping through hoops that the paladin has to do, and the Swordmage challenge actually protects someone. It doesn't do a paltry 3+Cha damage. I hope they can find a way to redesign it, or maybe make the Divine Challenge better.


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## GMforPowergamers (Jun 29, 2008)

Lucas Blackstone said:


> I can't help but feel as though the Swordmage's challenge complete overwhelms the paladin Divine Challenge. There's no silly jumping through hoops that the paladin has to do, and the Swordmage challenge actually protects someone. It doesn't do a paltry 3+Cha damage. I hope they can find a way to redesign it, or maybe make the Divine Challenge better.





I think this is on par with divin challange before it got reworked, since this doesn't have the abuse that divine challange did, it is a little more bang for the buck...but only a little


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## Lucas Blackstone (Jun 29, 2008)

Doing a small amount of damage doesn't protect someone from an attack unless this damage kills the attacker. Preventing damage protects them, it's a form of pre-healing almost. It makes it much better, especially against elites/solos.

Also it has a 10 range once it's in place, and doesn't require the Swordmage to chase the monster around to keep the challenge up. That's another drawback to divine challenge. The monster supposedly is drawn to you, but if it walks away and attacks someone else, you are now drawn to it if you want to bother keeping your mark up.

I agree much of the problems probably stem from the Divine Challenge re-write. But as it stands I would use the Swordmage's Challenge each and every time. The enemy knows what has happened to it so it has two choices A) Recieve an attack penalty and do much less damage, or B) Recieve no penalty, and do full damage.


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## keterys (Jun 29, 2008)

Swordmage's only triggers if the attack hits (which is one vital difference), is potentially of far less consequence when doing an area attack, requires an immediate action, has a range limit on the interrupt, does nothing to stop status effect attacks on allies, etc.

It's not a complete slam dunk.


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## Silverfox13 (Jun 29, 2008)

Only has a range of Burst 2 versus 5 for the Paladin


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## Destil (Jun 30, 2008)

Lucas Blackstone said:


> I can't help but feel as though the Swordmage's challenge complete overwhelms the paladin Divine Challenge. There's no silly jumping through hoops that the paladin has to do, and the Swordmage challenge actually protects someone. It doesn't do a paltry 3+Cha damage. I hope they can find a way to redesign it, or maybe make the Divine Challenge better.



Eh, Paladins can have their cake and eat it too, though. Check out Hospitaler's Blessing paragon path feature...


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## Fedifensor (Jun 30, 2008)

GMforPowergamers said:


> Ok, so did anyone from Origins feel, or hear anyone else feel otherwise?



I played the LFR preview, and the 3rd level version of the dwarf swordmage was at the table.  His mark never really came into play...but that could have just been because the monsters decided to attack him after being marked.  Which, after all, is the point.

His AC was equivalent to a fighter in heavy armor with a shield, and he went on Total Defense at least once to hold a choke point.  My take is that a swordmage is better defending against a single tough target, while a fighter is the better choice when defending against several targets.  The swordmage also has a few AoE powers to go on the attack against small groups of foes.

The swordmage was definitely one of the most effective characters, but that may be in comparison to the other characters.  The human wizard was given Cloud of Daggers, Magic Missile, and Ray of Frost as at-will powers...not a single AoE as an at-will.  She was also a orb specialist without Sleep.  The cleric missed with her encounter powers every time, and the main bad guy had resistance to the damage type of her daily.


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## Mirtek (Jun 30, 2008)

Fedifensor said:


> I played the LFR preview, and the 3rd level version of the dwarf swordmage was at the table.  His mark never really came into play...but that could have just been because the monsters decided to attack him after being marked.  Which, after all, is the point.
> 
> His AC was equivalent to a fighter in heavy armor with a shield,



What armor was he wearing? Cloth? Leather? 

Heavy fighter + shield is 18 - 19 AC, so with Int-mod of +3 applied two times he need at least leather armor to get to the scale + light shield AC or hide armor to get to the scale + heavy shield AC.


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## Iron Sky (Jun 30, 2008)

Lucas Blackstone said:


> Doing a small amount of damage doesn't protect someone from an attack unless this damage kills the attacker. Preventing damage protects them, it's a form of pre-healing almost. It makes it much better, especially against elites/solos.




Have you seen this happen in game with a Paladin you play with?

The small amount of damage my Paladin's mark does has deterred enemies from attacking in all cases except: 1) Where the enemy was mindless, 2) Where the enemy had so many hp that it was willing to take the damage - and this only on OAs, its primary attacks were still on the Paladin. 

In play, the divine challenge has been incredibly effective at deterring enemies from attacking anything but the Paladin, especially effective at stopping OAs, and absolutely destructive against undead. My mark's damage has killed two or three undead...

We were fighting on big undead brute that hit for 28 damage one round, then 22 the next vs 2nd level characters. It was on my paladin, but had it been against another player, the undead would have taken 17 damage from the mark each attack(7 + 10 radiant vulnerability). With the swordmage's, assuming 10 reduction, whatever it hit would have taken 18 and 12 damage, still enough to drop anyone not my Paladin, requiring just as many healing words to top off from the cleric, but without the 34 damage done to it. Yes, this is a corner case, but it is an in-game example of divine challenge's potential effectiveness in play.

Of course, you are just your stating opinion. My opinion, based on my experiences with the Paladin's challenge in-play, is that it is not inferior to the Swordmage's in any way. I consider both useful, depending on play preference.


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## igotsmeakabob!! (Jun 30, 2008)

I think the only way people would claim that the Swordmage is not a gish, is if they aren't familiar with the term as it is normally used, say, on the D&D boards. How is the Swordmage not gish? A gish is a character that uses martial skill and arcane prowess together in battle. Whether he shoots a fireball then swings his sword, or enhances himself with blur, bull's strength, haste, wraithstrike etc. and attacks. One of the more popular gish are the tankers and skirmishers, the ones who use magic to enhance their melee abilities. 
The swordmage is an arcane-based warrior. He attacks with an ensorcelled blade and protects himself with magical wards. What about that is not gish?

Because he doesn't get ranged spells he isn't a mage? He teleports people, shoots lightning and acid from his blade.. whats the problem? He just uses his blade as a focus, unlike other mage's orbs, wands and staves.

A gish uses magic and arms together. The Swordmage seems to be a decent gish.

edit: I'm sorry, he actually DOES get ranged spells. Lightning bolt daily, nice.

edit: In the end though, I suppose it depends on a person's own definition of the term.


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## GMforPowergamers (Jun 30, 2008)

I have herd that the basic orgion of swordmages is that Warwizards of cormyre trained with Purple Dragon knights to supplament their lack of spells after the spell plauge.


So I think they should have wizard like dailys to show their spell caster roots.


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## Fedifensor (Jul 1, 2008)

Mirtek said:


> What armor was he wearing? Cloth? Leather?
> 
> Heavy fighter + shield is 18 - 19 AC, so with Int-mod of +3 applied two times he need at least leather armor to get to the scale + light shield AC or hide armor to get to the scale + heavy shield AC.



The dwarf swordmage had AC 20 at 3rd level with a 16 Int, wearing _+1 surge leather armor_ (daily: gain +2 power bonus to all attack rolls and defenses, this bonus is reduced by 1 at the start of each of your turns).  He also had a _+1 defending longsword_ (when you take the total defense or second wind action, add the enhancement bonus of this weapon as an item bonus to all of your defenses until the start of your next turn).  With a combination of his base AC and item abilities, he could get his AC quite high.

So, leather is +2, enhancement bonus is +1, Int mod is +3, swordmage warding is +3, level mod is +1, for a total of +10.  10+10=20.


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## GMforPowergamers (Jul 1, 2008)

Fedifensor said:


> The dwarf swordmage had AC 20 at 3rd level with a 16 Int, wearing _+1 surge leather armor_ (daily: gain +2 power bonus to all attack rolls and defenses, this bonus is reduced by 1 at the start of each of your turns).  He also had a _+1 defending longsword_ (when you take the total defense or second wind action, add the enhancement bonus of this weapon as an item bonus to all of your defenses until the start of your next turn).  With a combination of his base AC and item abilities, he could get his AC quite high.
> 
> So, leather is +2, enhancement bonus is +1, Int mod is +3, swordmage warding is +3, level mod is +1, for a total of +10.  10+10=20.




Wow...is the defending sword in the phb? I don't remember it


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## DemonLord57 (Jul 1, 2008)

GMforPowergamers said:


> Wow...is the defending sword in the phb? I don't remember it



No, it's probably going to be in Tome of Treasures or Martial Power.


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## Mr. Wilson (Jul 1, 2008)

Fedifensor said:


> His AC was equivalent to a fighter in heavy armor with a shield, and he went on Total Defense at least once to hold a choke point.  My take is that a swordmage is better defending against a single tough target, while a fighter is the better choice when defending against several targets.  The swordmage also has a few AoE powers to go on the attack against small groups of foes.





We figured that out as well in our demo game.  The Mark a Swordmage puts on it's chosen target is really, really effective.


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## GMforPowergamers (Jul 1, 2008)

Mr. Wilson said:


> We figured that out as well in our demo game.  The Mark a Swordmage puts on it's chosen target is really, really effective.





do any of you that played in a game still have the sheet? if so any chance of seeing a scan? I would love to taake a look at the whole thing


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## eleran (Jul 1, 2008)

Mourn said:


> Smart people do stupid things all the time.




They're called managers.


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## AntlerDruid (Jul 1, 2008)

Anyone know what trained skills they had for the swordmage?


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## Knight_Errant (Jul 2, 2008)

eleran said:


> they're called managers.




win!


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## Alaric_Argent (Jul 8, 2008)

Zsig said:


> It has the Implement keyword, and not Weapon keyword.
> 
> Which means, you don't get to add prof. bonus to attack, that justifies the "vs Reflex".
> 
> ...




Yes, and it makes the Spiral Tower more appealing, since you use the longsword as an implement. Thus enters the proficiency bonus, if I read it aright.


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## GMforPowergamers (Jul 8, 2008)

come on people we are now into july...anymore spoiler info?


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## keterys (Jul 8, 2008)

Alaric_Argent said:


> Yes, and it makes the Spiral Tower more appealing, since you use the longsword as an implement. Thus enters the proficiency bonus, if I read it aright.




Not as far as I can tell, no. Can you cite what gave you that impression? I suspect you don't, however, in the same way that you don't get the +2 hit bonus from using a quarterstaff.


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## Alaric_Argent (Jul 9, 2008)

keterys said:


> Not as far as I can tell, no. Can you cite what gave you that impression? I suspect you don't, however, in the same way that you don't get the +2 hit bonus from using a quarterstaff.




Mostly, I understood it this way because longsword proficiency is a prerequisite for the WotST paragon path, and you must be proficient with a weapon to gain the proficiency bonus (PHB p. 219). Otherwise, it seems like you're just carrying around an oversized implement. Further, there are two spells in the parargon path that have the "weapon" keyword, and when casting either of those two, the caster should therefore get the proficiency bonus (per the sidebar on PHB p. 275). 

I grant you, more generally it doesn't seem to apply. If you can cast any other of your spells with the longsword as if it is an implement, does the keyword change for those spells change or get inherited? This is one of many areas which I wish were clearer. We may have to wait for FR to come out, unless anyone else cares to chime in.


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## keterys (Jul 9, 2008)

You'd get it for the 'Weapon' spells certainly, but as far as I can tell you don't get it for any Implement spells.

Ie, almost all of them. Much like not getting the quarterstaff's proficiency bonus. Though boy would that be a reason to be a staff mage


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## Alaric_Argent (Jul 9, 2008)

It is also a bit strange to me that you can cast spells with the implement keyword without using an implement, but using the implement makes them more effective (PHB p. 56). My question is, how, exactly? A character using a non-magical weapon s/he is proficient with gets a prof. bonus that is a set number. Yet "using a nonmagical implement confers no benefit." (PHB p. 221) This balanced how, exactly?


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## keterys (Jul 9, 2008)

Proficiency bonus counteracts attacking against AC, because AC gets armor added to it compared to, say, Reflex. 

So Implement attacks don't need proficiency bonus.


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## Incenjucar (Jul 9, 2008)

Weapon-based powers tend to be attacking AC, which is usually two points higher than defense.

A weapon-user can also just punch someone in the face instead of use a weapon.

There really just isn't enough of a difference to matter here.


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## Zsig (Jul 9, 2008)

You're both correct, I think you're just misunderstanding each other's points.

For powers/spells with the Weapon keyword, you add up your prof. bonus (provided you are proficient with the weapon).

For powers with the Implement keyword, it's just an (as you suggested) oversized implement.

That being said, I also played the Swordmage on a local event this past weekend and all i have to say is that i liked it alot (and the people on the table -maybe with the exception of the DM- liked it alot as well).

I just felt it doesn't deal much damage compared to other defenders, and it kinda feels like it's tending towards the controller (much like the paladin seems to be leaning towards the leader).

I loved the Dimensional Warp (minor action!), as well as the Aegis of Shielding (the DM checked my sheet everytime i used it cuz he couldn't believe it).

Also, there's one minor trick that doesn't seem to be posted here that the Swordmage can use (a class feature), I can't remember the name now, but he can sorta manipulate his sword at distance and bring it to his hand (IIRC, from up to 3 squares).


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## Stalker0 (Jul 9, 2008)

If the Swordmage is an int primary class, I have no idea why it would get a straight up bonus to AC.

Just give it basic light armors and your set to go. Heck its still better than heavy armor because you have no ACP and movement restrictions. A lot of people are forgetting that part, if Light Armor AC = Heavy Armor AC, light armor wins because of its other advantages.


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## Kralin Thornberry (Jul 11, 2008)

Rith the Wanderer said:


> Maybe the shield doesn't stack with armor (like old mage armow). That would seem to balance out with other defenders (actually a little lower?) except he wouldn't be armored.  The damage reduction is pretty ridiculous, but maybe theres some detail that were missing that leads to a more balanced ability.




Actually, it is to a single attack only, so if the mark is used on a wizard that is using mass damage spells, it's only good for one of the attacks.


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