# Warmage's 3rd-level Advanced Learning = Craptastic?



## Felon (Aug 27, 2006)

Got a warmage that's approaching 3rd-level. He gets to add a brand 1st-level new evocation spell to his list. I pull out my trusty Spell Compendium and PHBII and find...really nothing of interest.

That was my experience. Has anyone here found any 1st-level evocation spells that make a better choice than, say, floating disc?


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## Thanee (Aug 27, 2006)

Hey, in my PnP game, the Warmage was quite happy about _Tenser's Floating Disc_ on various occasions. 

But yeah, that's about the only useful spell choice there...

Bye
Thanee


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## Question (Aug 27, 2006)

Yep its craptastic.


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## Andras (Aug 27, 2006)

PHBII also has a Eclectic Learning option for warmages that widens your choice of spells on page 67.


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## Question (Aug 27, 2006)

At +1 spell level.


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## JoelF (Aug 27, 2006)

There's a 1st level evocation in the spell compendium (which I don't own), called something like thunderhead which creates a mini thundercloud over the target and zaps him with lightning for next to no damage for multiple rounds.  This is actually not such a bad choice for warmages, since if you cast it on a target you know goes invisible or hides, it effectively locates them for the whole party.


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## kerbarian (Aug 27, 2006)

Felon said:
			
		

> Got a warmage that's approaching 3rd-level. He gets to add a brand 1st-level new evocation spell to his list. I pull out my trusty Spell Compendium and PHBII and find...really nothing of interest.
> 
> That was my experience. Has anyone here found any 1st-level evocation spells that make a better choice than, say, floating disc?



Blood Wind (SC) is a great spell if anyone in the party uses natural attacks (e.g. a monk, or, at higher levels, anyone using polymorph).  Unfortunately, it wouldn't be of use to the warmage himself, and it wouldn't really start mattering until levels when full attacks are much more powerful than single attacks.


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## pawsplay (Aug 27, 2006)

Magic missile. It never misses, it affects incorporeal. For all your spellcaster interrupting needs... magic missile!

And by the way... advanced learning can be very handy at later levels, if you space out your warmage levels with something that gives caster progression. You can then pick a higher level spell.


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## Glyfair (Aug 27, 2006)

The PHB II has _Bigby's Tripping Hand_, which gives him some options the Warmage doesn't usually have.  _Luminous Gaze_ from the _Spell Compendium_ dazes everyone within 20' (as well as providing light), so it's an interesting choice as well.

I'll also second the Eclectic Learning option from the PHB II.  While taking a non-evocation 0 level wizard spell as a 1st level spell may seem poor, it does open up some options for the warmage.  For example, _Detect Magic_ as a 1st level spell isn't that bad when the warmage is the only arcane caster in the party.

Given the very narrow options in the warmage's spell list, I think adding options is the best focus.  Almost every spell is a variation on blasting something.  Anything different is a bonus, thus _Tenser's Floating Disc_ isn't that bad an option.



			
				pawsplay said:
			
		

> Magic missile. It never misses, it affects incorporeal. For all your spellcaster interrupting needs... magic missile!



Warmages already have _magic missile_.


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## Shayuri (Aug 27, 2006)

Yeah, but warmages get that anyway. 

Floating Disc is pretty good. If you can use Spell Compendium, there's also Persistant Blade (nice to flank with), Ice Dagger (gets a little AoE in), and Guiding Light (+2 to hit with ranged attacks on subject).

It's not TOO shabby. But it seems like Spell Compendium is something a lot of GM's don't invest in. :-(


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## pawsplay (Aug 27, 2006)

Do they? Sorry, I must have looked at their new spell list, rather than their class list.


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## Question (Aug 27, 2006)

A warmage as the party's only arcane caster is a disaster waiting to happen.


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## Sabathius42 (Aug 27, 2006)

Hello...im playing a warmage and i'm the parties only arcane caster.

*Waiting for disaster*

I picked PERSISTENT BLADE as my 3rd level learned spell.  Since I have dabbed in couple levels of fighter I figured I could use it to enhance the times I go into H2H, or alternately use it to help out the party rogue get sneak attacks without having to go into H2H myself.

DS

PS  I've alwayed wondered at the logic behind warmages getting Continual Light.  Its not very....fitting....with their other abilities.


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## Andras (Aug 27, 2006)

> At +1 spell level.




Eclectic Learning opens up Arcane Trickster w/o having to rely on using Extra Spell to take Mage Hand.

I had a Warmage/ArcTr and really would have liked to have had that feat to use on something else.


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## Jeff Wilder (Aug 28, 2006)

Sabathius42 said:
			
		

> PS  I've alwayed wondered at the logic behind warmages getting Continual Light.  Its not very....fitting....with their other abilities.




Think war movie: flare-illuminated battlefield.  With few exceptions, you need to be able to see to effectively engage in combat.


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## RigaMortus2 (Aug 28, 2006)

Question said:
			
		

> A warmage as the party's only arcane caster is a disaster waiting to happen.




I wouldn't go so far as to say that.  It entirely depends on the DM, the setting, and the players.  I've played in games where we had no arcane caster at all, and everything worked out fine.  Likewise, I've played in games where we had no healer (Cleric, Druid, etc.) at all, and it worked out fine.  Of course, these classes make things a lot easier.


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## Bad Paper (Aug 28, 2006)

My party is a barbarian, a cleric, a monk/rogue, and a warmage.  The warmage is the only arcane caster.  Seems OK.  It helps that the monk/rogue has absolutely insane ranks in Use Magic Device, so he winds up with most of the scrolls and miscellaneous wands.


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## Felon (Aug 28, 2006)

Arcane mages aren't really that handy at lower levels. For the handful of spells they can cast a day, they don't really contribute much other than the capability to inflict energy damage (which helps deal with oozes and such).


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## hackmastergeneral (Aug 29, 2006)

Sabathius42 said:
			
		

> Hello...im playing a warmage and i'm the parties only arcane caster.
> 
> *Waiting for disaster*
> 
> ...




As was I, for a LONG time.  It worked out well.

Persistant Blade is a good option.  I also took 2 levels in Fighter, to get Precise Shot, so I could target ranged touches into combat and not get dinged on the hit penalty.  Combine this with Point Blank, WF(Ranged Touch) and Ranged Touch Specialization, and War Mage Edge and you have some potent bonuses to pile on top of those Orbs.

May I suggest looking at Firey Argent Savant as a PrC, coupled with Firey Spell Feat from Sandstorm?

FAS is an option suggested in the AS description.  Many of the WM's spells are Fire based.  FAS would, at 1st level, give you +1 to each die of damage for Fire spells.  Firey Spell does the same thing, but they are seperate abilities, do not have the same descriptor, and the feat adds +1 to spell level.  Thus, you rock +2 to each die of damage, plus your WMedge and any other feats you have.  Its a potent combo.  I get my first level of FAS the next time I level, and I'm drooling.  FAS also gives some good Fire based bonuses as well.  You lose a Caster Level, which when combined with my Fighter levels, means I lose 9th level spells, but they are kinda underwhelming, and I can pick up Sudden Maximize with my final Feat selection.

And when we did pick up a Wizard, he was a hippie peacenik Divination specialist - so he still wasn't rocking any damage spells most of the time.  My pyromaniac Warmage still has his use, and is one of the cornerstone members of the party.  Frees the other wizard up from mem'ing tons of damage spells, and allows him to be more generally useful outside of combat.


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## Question (Aug 29, 2006)

What the.....ive heard of argent savant but not fiery argant savant.


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## hackmastergeneral (Aug 29, 2006)

Question said:
			
		

> What the.....ive heard of argent savant but not fiery argant savant.




In the description, towards the end, it talks about possible variants, and mentions you can use any elemental damage in place of the Force effect.

You could have an Acidic Argent Savant, or I guess technically it would be a Acidic Savant, but since the class is called Argent Savant, I keep the Argent in there to help with ease of understanding.

Thats where I got the idea for it (Complete Arcane), and when I looked at the Warmage spell list and saw buttloads of Fire-descriptor spells, my eyes lit up.

Seeing the Firey Spell feat in SS made me drool with the possibilities...

Check out page 24 of Complete Arcane, under the description of AS, where it says "Adaption".  Its a better option for a Warmage type character than the "Elemental Savant" class, especially if your plans don't involve becoming an Outsider or Elementals at all.  At its only a 5 level commitment.  And it deals extra damage, where the ES doesn't.  And it doesn't force you to cast all your energy-based spells as one type of energy all the time, as ES does.


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## Question (Aug 29, 2006)

Losing a spellcasting level pretty much sucks though.


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## hackmastergeneral (Aug 29, 2006)

Question said:
			
		

> Losing a spellcasting level pretty much sucks though.




Thats what "Practiced Spellcaster" is for.  Lets you get up to 4 caster levels (but not the spells) back.  If you only lose one SCL, you still get Ninth level spells.  You only lose out on a few, and the Sudden Maximize class ability, which you can pick up for a feat anyway.

I'm losing THREE, as I took two levels of fighter to juice up my Ranged Touch options.  PSC feat gave me those lost levels back, so I still get the effects of being a 12th level caster, despite having lost those levels.  I'm gonna lose my 9th level spells, but the Warmage spell list for 9th is pretty underwhelming.

BUT:

If I'm within 30' of my opponent(which I always manouever myself to be - I now have a 32 AC - highest in the party), I am +15 to strike with a ranged touch spell (which I use almost exclusively - why use anything other than an Orb of Fire/Whatever as a WM, other than to hit multi-targets?), and +16 damage once I add all the bonuses in.  I'll get a further +1 damage for every die of damage a Fire based spell does from the Fiery Spell feat(+12 damage for a 12th level Orb of Fire frex).  Once I get 1st level FAS, that goes up to +22(1st level ability of a FAS), and only raises the spell level +1.

+22 damage, to me, ain't something to sneeze at, and


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## Felon (Aug 29, 2006)

Damn, I was hoping I was missing that one spell that would make my warmage's day. The verdict seems to be craptastic.


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## Felon (Aug 29, 2006)

hackmastergeneral said:
			
		

> If I'm within 30' of my opponent(which I always manouever myself to be - I now have a 32 AC - highest in the party), I am +15 to strike with a ranged touch spell (which I use almost exclusively - why use anything other than an Orb of Fire/Whatever as a WM, other than to hit multi-targets?), and +16 damage once I add all the bonuses in.  I'll get a further +1 damage for every die of damage a Fire based spell does from the Fiery Spell feat(+12 damage for a 12th level Orb of Fire frex).  Once I get 1st level FAS, that goes up to +22(1st level ability of a FAS), and only raises the spell level +1.
> 
> +22 damage, to me, ain't something to sneeze at, and




Ok, you're a 12th level character. You've got what, +7 BAB from your levels, and +2 from PBS and WF? Is the other +6 all Dex? 

Your math here is hard to follow. You state that you a +16 damage bonus "once I add all the bonuses", but go on to specify a further +12 damage bonus to a 12d6 orb of fire thanks to the Fiery Spell feat. 12 and 16 adds up to 28. Then you state the 1st level FAS will boost you up to +22, when the ability would actually add another 12 points of damage to the mix, as it works the same way Fiery Spell does. That would push you significantly over +22.

I don't know what book "SS" is (Fiery Spell isn't in Savage Species). Is it WotC? At any rate, have you checked out Blistering Spell from PHBII?


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## Sabathius42 (Aug 29, 2006)

What exactly did you have your heart set on for a 1st level spell slot, Lesser Meteor Strike?

Good tips, Hackmaster, but I am taking a slightly different direction than you.

I took a boatload of the ranged combat feats, but also took EWP: Greatbow so that I have a function when my spell run out, or if we are facing mooks where I want to save my spells for later.  I like the synergy with Accuracy, True Strike, and Flaming Arrows as well.

I am deciding between branching three ways.

1. Eldritch Knight:  Stick with what I do now, nothing fancy.
2. Wildmage:  Our group as a whole loves the gamble.
3. Arcane Archer: Just a dab to get Imbue Arrow then back to 1 or 2.

I guess I will see where the Age of Worms takes me.

DS


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## hackmastergeneral (Aug 30, 2006)

Felon said:
			
		

> Your math here is hard to follow. You state that you a +16 damage bonus "once I add all the bonuses", but go on to specify a further +12 damage bonus to a 12d6 orb of fire thanks to the Fiery Spell feat. 12 and 16 adds up to 28. Then you state the 1st level FAS will boost you up to +22, when the ability would actually add another 12 points of damage to the mix, as it works the same way Fiery Spell does. That would push you significantly over +22.
> 
> I don't know what book "SS" is (Fiery Spell isn't in Savage Species). Is it WotC? At any rate, have you checked out Blistering Spell from PHBII?




Thought I specified - Fiery Spell is from Sandstorm.  Sorry for the confusion.

Warmage 10/Fighter 2

Dex:  20 +5, Int 21 +5, BAB +7, 

Feats:  *Warmage Edge* and *Extra Edge* (gives Int bonus to all spell damage, then +1 dam to WMedge +1/4 level; *Weapon Focus (Ranged Touch)* - +1 To hit with Ranged touch, *Point Blank Shot* - +1 attack/+ damage within 30', *Practiced Spellcaster* - effectively adds +2 to caster level to make up for -2 due to Fighter levels, *Ranged Touch Specialization* - +2 Damage with Ranged Touch, *Fiery Spell* - +1 damage to each die of damage from a fire spell.

Hit:  7 + 5 + 1 + 1 = + 14 to hit with a Ranged Touch spell at PB range.  I was off by one as I didn't have my sheets to hand.

Damage:  1 Point Blank + 2 RTspec + 5 Int + 3 Extra Edge = +11 Damage (I screwed up my math.  My GM is gonna shoot me - I was adding things wrong.)

The +22 damage was just for Fire based damage once I hit next level from the FAS plus Fiery Spell.  The guy was saying that the loss of a caster level sucks.  I'm saying its made up for by taking Practiced Spellcaster, and the +2 to all fire based damage dies.  Its a trade off sure, and the trade off was bigger when I grabbed the 2 levels in Fighter to snag Ranged feats, specifically the Precise Shot to negate the -4 to fire into melee combat.

So, in the end, I'll have +14 to hit and  +33 damage with a fire spell at Point Blank Range (which I almost always get to - with a 32 AC (and the  up on damage is made up for the fact I was accidentally low-balling my AC with bad math for many moons.  This would be why I am a Social Studies/English teacher... ), I don't mind getting close to combat.

I love Warmages - they are underappreciated.  For sheer unadulterated fire power, they rock up until Wizards start getting ther high level .


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## hackmastergeneral (Aug 30, 2006)

Dhelgarn's Persistant Blade from Magic of Faerun is your best option.  Its the only one I saw that was worth taking.

I have used it a grand total of Three times, but it was useful when it did come up.  We didn't have a Rogue in the party for a long time, but if you do, your Rogue will need down and kiss your hairy bean bag if your first spell cast into combat is Persistant Blade all the time.

Its the one "support" spell a WM can get thats really useful.

My next AdvLrn spell (which I had before PHB2) was Bigby's Slapping Hand, which saps an AoO from one foe if they don't make a DC20 Concentration check.  This is a very useful spell if you can coordinate with the charging fighters and tumbling Rogues.  Especially if you end up fighting Rogues, and can negate their Sneak Attacks (though most decently high level rogues will have Combat Reflexes, but its always worth a try).

I would shove the Advanced Lerning aside, and go Eclectic all the way.  At that low level, Disrupt Undead might not be a bad choice, as once you start throwing WMedge on top, its still a decent spell to have to hand at any level.  Get a Zombie down to almost dead, but don't want to waste a decent spell on it?  Disrupt Undead, add WMedge, and its not awful untill you get medium level.

Mage Hand, Daze, Ghost Sound and hell, Resistance can make the diff between life or death.

Theres NO great choice at 3rd level AdvLrn.  All the good and useful Evoc spells you already have.  Even Pers. Blade is of limited utility (though its super helpful when it is).  

But, don't discount those 0 level spells.  Unless you have a Sorceror, your Wizard will be memorizing Read/Detect Magic and Detect Poison all the time, more than likely.  A creative player can use Daze, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Message, or Prestidigitation to good effect, that can really make a difference in an encounter/situation.  And Disrupt Undead is not the worst spell in the world, unless you never fight undead.  And +1 to saving throws from Resistance is never a bad thing to have.


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## Felon (Aug 30, 2006)

hackmastergeneral said:
			
		

> I love Warmages - they are underappreciated.  For sheer unadulterated fire power, they rock up until Wizards start getting ther high level .




Well, in all fairness, other than the warmage edge class feature, you'd have that damage output with a wizard as well, plus a couple of bonus metamagic feats (which would net you blistering spell right there).

I actually multi-classed a favored soul/warmage (as mentioned in another thread around here), but am planning to respec out because I'm just tired of magic missile being the only 1st-level spell with a range greater than 30 feet (I've found that the 1-round casting time on hail of stones renders it too useless to count) and don't feel like waiting until 4th-level for that to change.


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## glass (Aug 30, 2006)

Question said:
			
		

> Yep its craptastic.



Craptacular, even! 


glass.


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## hackmastergeneral (Aug 30, 2006)

Felon said:
			
		

> Well, in all fairness, other than the warmage edge class feature, you'd have that damage output with a wizard as well, plus a couple of bonus metamagic feats (which would net you blistering spell right there).
> 
> I actually multi-classed a favored soul/warmage (as mentioned in another thread around here), but am planning to respec out because I'm just tired of magic missile being the only 1st-level spell with a range greater than 30 feet (I've found that the 1-round casting time on hail of stones renders it too useless to count) and don't feel like waiting until 4th-level for that to change.




Well, yes.  The first few levels of Warmage are teh suck.  The payoff, though, is pretty big.

The big thing is that with the "war" bent of the warmage, you don't feel bad about taking martial feats to buff your damage and hits, because thats what you do.  A wizard often feels like he can't memorize a billion fireballs, because he needs to be more utilitarian.

Also the WM can cast a wide variety of elemental-dealing spells at the drop of a hat, so if the wizard memorized a bunch of fire spells, and they face a fire-immune creature, he feels stupid and useless.  The warmage just pops out one of his Orbs, and goes to town.

Also, don't discount the Lesser Orbs.  Close to 30 feet, and you are dealing some nice damage.  Thats why I suggest Point Blank Shot as a default feat for all Warmages - so many spells have Close range, that its silly not to take PBS, plus with the plethora of Ranged Touches, Precise Shot is a must.  I'd almost say that a level or two in Fighter is almost neccessary to make the most powerful Warmage.


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## FrostedMini1337 (Aug 30, 2006)

Off Topic: Warmage should be the base caster.  IME you start nubs on Fighters, and then ween them up to barbs and rangers, then monks.  Start caster kids on a sorcerer, but the warmage is even more nubfriendly.

On Topic: Check the BOVD.  Darkbolt what?


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## hackmastergeneral (Aug 30, 2006)

FrostedMini1337 said:
			
		

> Off Topic: Warmage should be the base caster.  IME you start nubs on Fighters, and then ween them up to barbs and rangers, then monks.  Start caster kids on a sorcerer, but the warmage is even more nubfriendly.
> 
> On Topic: Check the BOVD.  Darkbolt what?




Warmages are yes, better for the newbies.  They let them be super effective right off the bat, don't have to worry about picking useless spells, or worry about memorization.

I'd pretty much ditch Sorcerors, and use a WM if I was going to play a spontaneous caster class.  If you want versatility, Wizards are better, if you want specific focus, Warmages are more combat-friendly.  Give the WM some wands to make up for some useful spells he misses out on, or potions and scrolls, and you won't notice the loss.


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## Question (Aug 30, 2006)

The WM will need to make use magic device checks as those spells are not on his class list btw.


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## hackmastergeneral (Aug 30, 2006)

Given the skill list over all, UMD should be a maxed out skill.


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## hackmastergeneral (Sep 1, 2006)

would there be a problem, with rules, for a WM to not use the 3rd level Advanced Leraning until 4th?

Just not picking a spell until he gets another level?  Is there anything in the rules that says you HAVE to take it right then and there?

I might, if someone plays a WM in my campaign, bump that up to 4th anyway.  That way you could, with Eclectic learning, get a decent 1st level spell, or get a decent 2nd level one.


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## Sabathius42 (Sep 1, 2006)

Slightly on topic....I just got my 6th level of Warmage this past session and now have to pick my next Advanced Learning spell.

I think I am going with Leomunds Tiny Hut.....I can use it as a little bunker during combats to protect me against enemy mages and ranged attackers, but still fire my bow/spells out at my hearts content.

DS

Another + for Warmages being the newbie friendly wizard class is the fact they get armor and d6 HP.  Always a good thing when one tactical mistake doesn't always lead to your characters instant death.


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## Vanye (Sep 2, 2006)

I'm rather fond of Light of Lunia - dur 10 minutes/level; you emit a 30 ft silvery radiance, and during the spell's duration you can release the energy in 2 bolts that do 1d6 good/light damage on a ranged touch (double dmage against undead or evil outsiders), within 30 ft.  the first bolt reduces your light's radius by 15ft, the second ends the spell.

Light of Mercuria is a 2nd level spell that does the same, but the damage is based at 2d6, and the light is golden; light of Venya is a 3rd level spell, pearly white light, 3d6 damage base.  Venya also says you can heal "1d6 points of damage + your divine spellcaster level (max +10)"  I'd be wiling to change that to 1d6 + caster level, but that's a nice flexibility that is missing from most 3rd Ed spells.


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## moritheil (Sep 2, 2006)

IME, Warmages are actually quite viable as primary party arcanists, as long as an artificer or cleric is present and willing to cast utility spells.  If there is no utility caster and the only arcanist is the warmage, then yes, that could indeed be a disaster.

Regarding eclectic learning, never underestimate the utility of arcane mark, dancing lights, or detect poison at low levels.     They are all potentially viable 0-level wizard spells to be learned as 1st-level spells.


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