# Firefly Alignments Debate



## Wrath of the Swarm (Apr 22, 2004)

Okay, I'm really not a fan of D&D alignment.  Sometimes the labels can actually be convenient, and at least they make for good arguments.

So what alignments do the crew of Serenity possess?  My opinions are as follows:

Malcolm:  Lawful Neutral
Inara:  Neutral Good
Zoe:  True Neutral
Wash:  True Neutral
Simon:  Neutral Good
River:  Chaotic Neutral
Jayne:  Chaotic Neutral, secondary alignment Neutral Evil
Book:  Lawful Good
Kaylee:  Neutral Good


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## Umbran (Apr 22, 2004)

The "secondary alignment" thing for Jayne seems a bit weak.  The man does not suddenly become less concerned with personal freedom when he does bad things.  

I don't think Jayne is CN, actually.  To be really chaotic, one should be dedicated to increasing personal freedom for everyone.  Jayne doesn't care enough about others to be dedicated thus.  In addition, he's fairly predictable in most situations.  He's just Neutral, with occasional evil and chaotic twinges.

Zoe may be neutral, but she borders upon lawfulness.  She seems pretty dedicated to the chain of command and the power stucture on board the ship.


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## Staffan (Apr 22, 2004)

I'd definitely peg Mal as Chaotic Neutral with Good tendencies. He *really* dislikes authorities and big government, which is the defining trait of the Chaotic ethos. He keeps deals made, but that's just a survival trait when dealing with criminals (and the consequences of breaking deals is shown in War Stories).

I'd also probably peg Jayne as Chaotic Evil. He also doesn't care for authorities, he's only out for himself, and he has absolutely no regard for deals made (q.v. the scene in Out of Gas where he's introduced, and Ariel).


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## Wrath of the Swarm (Apr 23, 2004)

Staffan said:
			
		

> I'd definitely peg Mal as Chaotic Neutral with Good tendencies. He *really* dislikes authorities and big government, which is the defining trait of the Chaotic ethos. He keeps deals made, but that's just a survival trait when dealing with criminals (and the consequences of breaking deals is shown in War Stories).



He was given a position of authority in the War, and takes his position as Captain very seriously.  His stance on keeping deals seems more like an ethical precept than a practical one to my mind.  Even when it would be in his best interests to break agreements, he doesn't do so - and when he felt he needed to default from a job, he made sure the money given was returned.

In short, I just don't see Chaotic as fitting the Captain.  He seems to have a very potent code of ethics that he follows; it's just not a formal or explicit one.



> I'd also probably peg Jayne as Chaotic Evil. He also doesn't care for authorities, he's only out for himself, and he has absolutely no regard for deals made (q.v. the scene in Out of Gas where he's introduced, and Ariel).



  He's very consistent, though.  Gotta give him that.  He also won't betray the Captain, presumably because he respects Mal's dedication to his agreements.  Being selfish isn't necessarily Chaotic Evil.


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## Umbran (Apr 23, 2004)

Wrath of the Swarm said:
			
		

> He also won't betray the Captain, presumably because he respects Mal's dedication to his agreements.  Being selfish isn't necessarily Chaotic Evil.




I don't think it's due to respect.  I think it's due to teh fact that he will get no mercy.  When Jayne tried to betray Simon and River, Mal came very close to tossing Jayne out the airlock.  What do you think would happen if Jayne tried to betray Mal personally?

No, Jayne keeps his word to Mal through plain and simple risk analysis.  If and when the money is really good enough, Jayne would turn.  It just has to be a whole lot of money


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## Wrath of the Swarm (Apr 23, 2004)

Malcolm let Jayne live when he saw that Jayne was ashamed.

Mal is tough, but fair.  He is also occasionally compassionate, but he won't hesitate to strike down someone that deserves it.  He's big on being just, but his idea of justice requires that he show consideration for the needs of others.

I'm also not sure whether Zoe is concerned about power structures in general, or if she's just personally loyal to Mal.  Lots of people are personally loyal to Mal, after all.  He inspires that in people.


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## Harp (Apr 23, 2004)

Alright then, my take (cool discussion BTW):

Mal - Chaotic good:  He may have been Lawful good during the war but he's really enjoying tweaking the established authority as a criminal mastermind now.  Yes, he has a very powerful internal code, but I think the code has more to do with what's right (or good, in my opinion) than what's good for society as a whole.

Inara - Neutral good:  No quibbles there.

Zoe - Lawful neutral (good tendencies):  I think her affinity for organized structure goes beyond her loyalty to the Captain.

Wash - Don't care (sorry), but if I had to pick I'd say Chaotic good.  He doesn't care much for the power structure on the ship, or anywhere really, but he seems a generally decent sort.

Jayne - Neutral evil:  Though the alignment has an ugly connotation (you know, evil and all), it's always struck me as the ultimate "lookin' out for number one" alignment.  He doesn't seem to give two hoots about authority or personal freedom as long as he gets his.  And he seems more than willing to sell out his comrades when an opportunity arises (see "Train Job" and "Ariel").

The others I'm in general agreement on:  LG for Book (though that might change if his backstory were ever to be revealed, and I'm _dying_ for it to be revealed), NG for Kaylee and Simon, and for River, who knows?


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## Henry (Apr 23, 2004)

A agree with Harp's assessment the most; a personal code to me does not have to imply lawful; after all, he has no problem with that code when the good or evil of a situation plays into it (when Malcolm first meets Simon and River, he's ready to give them to the Alliance in a heartbeat).

Jayne? Neutral Evil, or Neutral with Evil tendencies. There's a man who would sell his own mother if it bought a companion gun for Vera. I love him as a character; if I were to meet someone like that in real life, it'd be REALLY hard to be friends with them. Yeah, NE is a good descriptor, because he really is out for himself over all else.

The weird thing is how well he and Book get along in casual conversation. Book won't trust him any farther than his field of vision, but he gets along with him pretty well in shipboard life (lifting weights together, casual conversations at the dinner table, etc.)


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## buzzard (Apr 23, 2004)

Granted I've only seen one DVDs worth(the first one), but I rather think Malcom is a good example of Nuetral. I believe that even in the limited sampling of the series that I've seen there's plenty of things that you can't count as good. Of course there are also plenty of things you wouldn't count as evil (though are close). He might have been lawful once, but his rejection of the Alliance makes it so that I can't see him as lawful. However he seems to be fairly regimented at times. 

I suppose the personal code argument could be applied and make him chaotic nuetral, but I have that deep seated antipathy to the alignment from watching too many people play it wrong to ever inflict it on anyone. 

buzzard


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## Staffan (Apr 23, 2004)

Wrath of the Swarm said:
			
		

> He was given a position of authority in the War, and takes his position as Captain very seriously.  His stance on keeping deals seems more like an ethical precept than a practical one to my mind.  Even when it would be in his best interests to break agreements, he doesn't do so - and when he felt he needed to default from a job, he made sure the money given was returned.
> 
> In short, I just don't see Chaotic as fitting the Captain.  He seems to have a very potent code of ethics that he follows; it's just not a formal or explicit one.



He probably was Lawful back during the war - or possibly not, given that the Independents fought for less central control. He probably wasn't Chaotic, though.

However, I don't think "personal code of ethics" means you're Lawful. Lawful means you support society's rights over those of the individual - "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" and all that. That's *definitely* the antithesis of Malcolm Reynolds.



> He's very consistent, though.  Gotta give him that.  He also won't betray the Captain, presumably because he respects Mal's dedication to his agreements.  Being selfish isn't necessarily Chaotic Evil.



No, but selling out your buddies when a better deal comes along is. See his backstory in Out of Gas: 



Spoiler



Jayne is a part of a group sent to kill Mal and Zoë. Mal tells him that if he joins up with him instead, he'll get his own bunk and a fair share of the profits. Jayne *instantly* turns on his former pals.


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## BiggusGeekus (Apr 23, 2004)

EDIT: SPOIL SPACE 

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Malcolm:  Hmmm.  Definately Chaotic Good with an honor code.  Maybe Neutral Good.  Note that the people he steals from are from a government he views as oppressive.  

Inara:  I'd consider making a case for Lawful Good here.  She was willing to sell the laser pistol for Mal, however her feelings for Mal must have been a factor.

Zoe:  Again, stealing from a government you don't respect is a tricky problem.  In the train hiest she and Mal lifted medical supplies but she didn't like the thought of people dying from her actions.  Her loyalties are incredibly strong.  Hmmm.  

Wash:  True Neutral sounds good to me here.

Simon:  Neutral Good I could go with.

River:  Difficult.  She's not clearly chaotically alinged.  She is, however, insane.  Or at least able to pick up and process so many sensory inputs that she had difficulty dealing with all of them emotionally.  Hey, she might be Lawful Good in her own mind.  Hard to say.  Her actions though are Chaotic Neutral.

Jayne:  I'm backing away from evil with Jayne.  His character saw the most change in the series.  Jayne is self-centered, but after confronting the evil action of selling the crew out he started to have a change of heart. He did sort of betray a former empolyer to work for Mal, but that might have just been some kind of wacky contract negotation in his mind.  I'll go with Chaotic Neutral with a very, very werid honor code.

Book:  No way Book is Lawful Good.  It isn't even clear that he's a nice guy.  It's possible he just puts on a good show.  He is apparently very handy with a gun, is comfortable around Jayne, has Alliance ties, and in the last episode River picks up a REAL nasty streak from him.  He _appears_ lawful good, I'll give him that.  But he could just have a Bluff skill that's out of this world.

Kaylee:  Neutral Good?  Hmmm.  Another tricky one.  I'm not always sure that Kaylee thinks through the morality of her actions.  She's just a real nice person.  But Neutral Good works.


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## Pielorinho (Apr 23, 2004)

Great discussion!  I think it also shows the limitations of the alignment system, especially in Mal.  Here you have a guy who's an outlaw, who runs a ship of outlaws, who will sell out strangers to the bad guys in order to protect his crew.  Not good, not lawful.

But when he's being tortured, he devotes all his energy to keeping a crewmate alive (and not even a crewmate he especially likes).  He is fanatically loyal to his crew.  He puts himself at great risk in order to deliver medicine to poor people (never mind that he stole it in the first place  ).  And nothing makes him madder than being questioned by his crew:  he expects immediate, unquestioning loyalty, and will kick your butt if you don't give it to him.  Lawful?  Sure.  Good?  Quite possibly.

Complex characters, like those on this show, have elements of all the alignments in them.  I'd be tempted to describe Mal as lawful good (as a captain and a protector) with chaotic neutral (as an outlaw and a scavenger) tendencies.

Daniel


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## Wrath of the Swarm (Apr 23, 2004)

Henry said:
			
		

> A agree with Harp's assessment the most; a personal code to me does not have to imply lawful; after all, he has no problem with that code when the good or evil of a situation plays into it (when Malcolm first meets Simon and River, he's ready to give them to the Alliance in a heartbeat).



  What does "the good or evil of a situation" have to do with being lawful?  He thought Simon was some kind of slaver at first, and was trying not to commit obvious crimes against the Alliance.

I agree that, in D&D terms, Malcolm is not "Good".  Malcolm is ethical.  Consistently ethical is a trait I associate with Law more than Chaos.  Remember Train Job, where the sheriff suggested that when Malcolm learned more about the nature of what he stole that he had a choice to make, and Malcolm stated that he didn't have a choice?  That sort of behavior is why I consider him Lawful Neutral.

Now Book, who offers mercy to villans even when it's clearly not in his own best interest, is obviously Lawful Good.



> The weird thing is how well he and Book get along in casual conversation. Book won't trust him any farther than his field of vision, but he gets along with him pretty well in shipboard life (lifting weights together, casual conversations at the dinner table, etc.)


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## Wrath of the Swarm (Apr 23, 2004)

Pielorinho said:
			
		

> Great discussion!  I think it also shows the limitations of the alignment system, especially in Mal.  Here you have a guy who's an outlaw, who runs a ship of outlaws, who will sell out strangers to the bad guys in order to protect his crew.  Not good, not lawful.



  Why isn't that lawful?  A villan could consistently sell out strangers to benefit himself and be considered Lawful Evil.  And merely being criminal isn't necessarily Chaotic.  Unlawfulness isn't necessarily unLawful.



> And nothing makes him madder than being questioned by his crew:  he expects immediate, unquestioning loyalty, and will kick your butt if you don't give it to him.



  I don't see it that way.  When he gives an order for the good of the ship, he expects it to be carried out.  What's more important is that, when the survival of the group is not at stake, he tends not to give orders.  He commands only when it is necessary for him to do so.


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## Pielorinho (Apr 23, 2004)

Wrath of the Swarm said:
			
		

> Why isn't that lawful? A villan could consistently sell out strangers to benefit himself and be considered Lawful Evil. And merely being criminal isn't necessarily Chaotic. Unlawfulness isn't necessarily unLawful.
> 
> I don't see it that way. When he gives an order for the good of the ship, he expects it to be carried out. What's more important is that, when the survival of the group is not at stake, he tends not to give orders. He commands only when it is necessary for him to do so.



Fair point on his not giving orders when not necessary; indeed, he puts up with a fair amount of playful disrespect from the crew.  Kind of chaotic, eh?  But when things are grim, he's not into cooperation, not into consensus-building:  you do what he says, or he throws you up against the wall.

I think this highlights the fact that complex characters don't fit easily into the framework of alignment.

Daniel


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## Klaus (Apr 23, 2004)

Let's see:

Mal -> Neutral Good. He defies an oppressive government and hates being told what to do (a Chaotic trait), but demands obedience from his crew and tends to keep his word (a Lawful trait). He refrains from harming innocents, and more than once has gone out on a limb to help someone (a Good trait).

Zoe -> Lawful Neutral (Good). Utterly loyal to Mal, even when it unnerves her husband. Doesn't like when her actions harm innocents either (so she might even be LG).

Wash -> True Neutral sounds about right.

Inara -> Lawful Good. Controlled, poised, focused, disciplined, plus she's the ultimate "companion" with a golden heart.

Simon -> Lawful Good. He's on the run from a (supposedly) Lawful Evil government, but yet he upholds his oath to heal others (as in the hospital episode), plus he's utterly proper when it comes to Kaylee.

Kaylee -> Neutral Good. A bit flighty and carefree, but has a natural sense of "what's right".

Jayne -> Neutral. He doesn't harm people for the fun of it. Maybe he used to be Neutral Evil, and has fallen back on old habits when he almost turned Simon and River  over to the government, but his regret shows he isn't comfortable in those shoes anymore.

River -> Neutral. Her constant changes (caused by insanity) precludes her from being an anarchist. As the PHB says, someone who's constantly changing their minds are TN.

Book -> He puts up a good show of being LG, with a slight tendency towards NG.


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## Harp (Apr 23, 2004)

I'm in firm agreement with the observation that this discussion highlights the limitations of the alignment system.  Great stuff, though, and some great arguments.  I think I'm generally sticking with my initial assessment, but here are some concessions:

I can see Jayne easing from NE to neutral over the course of the series.  Maybe not completely, but perhaps looking that direction.

Book could very well be something far darker than his LG "cover" would indicate.  His story, I think, was the greatest missed opportunity of the series, up their with River's.

I can take Neutral for Wash.  I just don't seem as overly bound by any alignment constraints.


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## Wrath of the Swarm (Apr 23, 2004)

Klaus said:
			
		

> Mal -> Neutral Good. He defies an oppressive government and hates being told what to do (a Chaotic trait), but demands obedience from his crew and tends to keep his word (a Lawful trait). He refrains from harming innocents, and more than once has gone out on a limb to help someone (a Good trait).



  He's also killed defenseless but potentially dangerous people, which is generally not a trait associated with D&D Good.  (Would a Good person have kicked that man into the engine intake?  Probably not, although an ethical person might have under the circumstances.)



> Zoe -> Lawful Neutral (Good). Utterly loyal to Mal, even when it unnerves her husband. Doesn't like when her actions harm innocents either (so she might even be LG).



  Hmmm...  Neutral with Lawful and Good tendencies, perhaps?  She also has ethical issues, but she doesn't quite seem Good in the D&D sense.  She's also only mildy Lawful, I think, but you make a good point.



> Wash -> True Neutral sounds about right.



  Maybe with mild chaotic tendencies?  He does seem rather creatively disorganized and adaptive - which fits the skills needed for a pilot.



> Inara -> Lawful Good. Controlled, poised, focused, disciplined, plus she's the ultimate "companion" with a golden heart.



  That's why I thought she was more Neutral Good than anything else.  Helping people is what's most important for her.  She is quite disciplined, true.  Definite Lawful tendencies.



> Simon -> Lawful Good. He's on the run from a (supposedly) Lawful Evil government, but yet he upholds his oath to heal others (as in the hospital episode), plus he's utterly proper when it comes to Kaylee.



  I can see this.  Emphasis on the Good more than Lawful, I think.  He is willing to _threaten_ to violate his principles, particularly when he claimed he would let Kaylee die if the ship didn't continue, but I think that's a highly unusual set of circumstances.



> Kaylee -> Neutral Good. A bit flighty and carefree, but has a natural sense of "what's right".



  Agreed.



> Jayne -> Neutral. He doesn't harm people for the fun of it. Maybe he used to be Neutral Evil, and has fallen back on old habits when he almost turned Simon and River  over to the government, but his regret shows he isn't comfortable in those shoes anymore.



  I see Jayne as having always lived with backstabbing, evil people.  He's learned how to survive among them, but now that he's among people who won't betray him or their ethics for profit he's beginning to change.  Clearly he's very self-interested, but he won't betray his personal loyalty to Mal for mere money.  Possibly if his life was at stake...

No one on Serenity really fits the label of Evil well.  The Alliance would seem to be somewhat Lawful Evil to Lawful Neutral (Stupid Neutral), and the Reavers are Chaotic Evil.



> River -> Neutral. Her constant changes (caused by insanity) precludes her from being an anarchist. As the PHB says, someone who's constantly changing their minds are TN.



  Eh.  I don't like that way of looking at Law or Chaos at all.  Her insanity seems to be a forced form of Chaos to me...



> Book -> He puts up a good show of being LG, with a slight tendency towards NG.



  Agreed.  He certainly has secrets, but I don't think they're as dark as some have suggested.  Good people have nasty thoughts, after all.


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## Dismas (May 3, 2004)

Harp said:
			
		

> I'm in firm agreement with the observation that this discussion highlights the limitations of the alignment system.  Great stuff, though, and some great arguments.




I think d20 Modern Alliengence system (Pick upto 3 things that mean the most) is much better suited to something like Firefly, it allows much more flexibilty than DnD, for example for Mal Crew and Ship are definately his 1 and 2, for Simon it is River, For Jayne it is the Payoff, Mal, Vera. 

By the way thanks to everyone talking it up. I had never seen anything about the show, it never made it to UK terestrial TV. I brought the DVD box set sight unseen based on your comments. I've just got the last DVD to watch now, it just reminds me so much of my old Traveller games, and it is something that I could easily run in d20 Modern. Even my wife has started to get into 'that wierd western'.


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