# Eladrin, why?



## havard (Jan 3, 2012)

I like the idea of a teleporting race, but why do they have to look and feel almost exactly like elves? Other than the game mechanical features this race seems really unnecessary. 

What have I missed?

-Havard


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## Kobold Boots (Jan 3, 2012)

The Eladrin have existed in all previous editions of D&D.  They're just a player race now.


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## Shemeska (Jan 3, 2012)

Because the 4e eladrin hijacked the name and shallow bits of the concept and appearance of the 2e/3e eladrin which were a race of CG outsiders native to Arborea. 

Since they stripped Chaotic Good out of the game entirely and changed the 4e default cosmology apparently they felt it was ok to recycle the eladrin's name into a completely different creature (though not as bizarre as the 4e archon versus the 1e/2e/3e archon...), in this case a watered down PC appropriate race of teleporting high elves.


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## Frostmarrow (Jan 3, 2012)

I think also that elves were both seen as aloof wizards and wild hunters and that it could be interesting to explore both types without having to look over the shoulder.


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## mach1.9pants (Jan 3, 2012)

Yeah Frostmarrow has it, IIRC it is spelt out that way in Races and Classes


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## drothgery (Jan 3, 2012)

havard said:


> I like the idea of a teleporting race, but why do they have to look and feel almost exactly like elves? Other than the game mechanical features this race seems really unnecessary.
> 
> What have I missed?
> 
> -Havard



The thing is that unless you want to give elves a lot of 'you can have feature X or feature Y' choices or split the race in half, the mechanical features (and that both kinds of elf are pretty well established in fantasy in general and D&D in particular) make the race desirable. There's always been this weird dichotomy between mechanics that make good nature-loving woodsy elves and mechanics that make good magic-loving, ancient lore-keeping elves. 4e (at least initially) said "what the heck, we'll just make two races of elves". And then backtracked to give each more ability to cover the niches set up for the other.


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## Stormonu (Jan 3, 2012)

Because the name Eladrin can be copyrighted, just like Games Workshop's Eldar.


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## Dausuul (Jan 3, 2012)

havard said:


> I like the idea of a teleporting race, but why do they have to look and feel almost exactly like elves? Other than the game mechanical features this race seems really unnecessary.
> 
> What have I missed?




They _are_ elves. 4E took the five classic elf subraces--high, grey, wild, wood, and dark--and turned them into three distinct races. High and grey elves merged into eladrin; wild and wood elves merged into 4E-elves; dark elves became (remained) drow.


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## Spatula (Jan 3, 2012)

havard said:


> I like the idea of a teleporting race, but why do they have to look and feel almost exactly like elves? Other than the game mechanical features this race seems really unnecessary.
> 
> What have I missed?



To elaborate, "eladrin" elves in 4e are grey/high /magic/galadriel elves, while "elf" elves are wild/wood/legolas elves.

It also responds to a player complaint about 3e elves, who had wizard as a favored class but racially were much better rogues or rangers. With class restrictions removed in 3e, the old elf's niche as F/MU disappeared, and the racial abilities didn't offer any compelling reason to be take wizard levels.


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## Klaus (Jan 3, 2012)

havard said:


> I like the idea of a teleporting race, but why do they have to look and feel almost exactly like elves? Other than the game mechanical features this race seems really unnecessary.
> 
> What have I missed?
> 
> -Havard



Since the dawn of D&D, elves had two conflicting identities:

- "Sylvan" elves, who were good with bows and wise in the ways of nature. This image stems from Legolas, the archetypcal elf in Lord of the Rings.

- "High" elves, who were chaotic and excelled with magic and sword. This image comes from Poul Anderson's stories, including Three Hearts & Three Lions and The Broken Sword.

Gygax was a fan of the second type of elf, but D&D players were fans of the first type. Over the years, many elf "subraces" cropped up to cover these: high elves, gray elves (Galadriel-inspired, perhaps?), wood elves, wild elves, etc.

When 4e rolled out, it was decided to make the distinction clearer and, in order to avoid "subraces", the "high" and "grey" elves became the eladrin.


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## jonesy (Jan 3, 2012)

But 2E Eladrin were a group of beings, not a singular race. The 4E eladrin are closest to Ghaele Eladrin from Planescape (in look). So why not just use the Ghaele? Why get rid of all the variation?


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## TerraDave (Jan 3, 2012)

Kobold Boots said:


> The Eladrin have existed in all previous editions of D&D.  They're just a player race now.




No



Frostmarrow said:


> I think also that elves were both seen as aloof wizards and wild hunters and that it could be interesting to explore both types without having to look over the shoulder.






Dausuul said:


> They _are_ elves. 4E took the five classic elf subraces--high, grey, wild, wood, and dark--and turned them into three distinct races. High and grey elves merged into eladrin; wild and wood elves merged into 4E-elves; dark elves became (remained) drow.






Spatula said:


> To elaborate, "eladrin" elves in 4e are grey/high /magic/galadriel elves, while "elf" elves are wild/wood/legolas elves.
> 
> It also responds to a player complaint about 3e elves, who had wizard as a favored class but racially were much better rogues or rangers. With class restrictions removed in 3e, the old elf's niche as F/MU disappeared, and the racial abilities didn't offer any compelling reason to be take wizard levels.




Yes


I do agree/think that recycling the name eladrin was confusing and somewhat pointless. Recent changes--int bonus for elves--have also undermined the distinction. I have a very effective elf wizard in my party. With racial utilties, you could easily fold the eladrin back in, just allow them to choose fey step at level 2.


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## havard (Jan 3, 2012)

Thanks for the feedback everyone! 



Spatula said:


> To elaborate, "eladrin" elves in 4e are grey/high /magic/galadriel elves, while "elf" elves are wild/wood/legolas elves.
> 
> It also responds to a player complaint about 3e elves, who had wizard as a favored class but racially were much better rogues or rangers. With class restrictions removed in 3e, the old elf's niche as F/MU disappeared, and the racial abilities didn't offer any compelling reason to be take wizard levels.




I actually thought this was a design feature rather than a flaw in 3E. The fact that the ability score modifiers suggested a rogue/Ranger type and the favored class was Wizard meant that the Elf would indeed do well with either option, just as intended. 

-Havard


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## tuxgeo (Jan 3, 2012)

Here is one more minor distinction between 4E elves and eladrin, namely their normal place of residence, as follows: 

With the introduction of the Feywild as a place of its own, there could be both "elves staying fey" and "elves gone to nature" -- with the "Eladrin" being the elven race who remained as fey as their race began, and still live in the Feywild, and the "Elves" being the elven race who started living almost completely in the prime plane, and who slowly modified their traits to fit more comfortably there.


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## Siberys (Jan 3, 2012)

This isn't that odd considering other fantasy properties, either.

Frex, take the Elder Scrolls series of video games. Those have Altmer (High Elves, good with magic), Bosmer (wood elves, natury archers), and Dunmer (Dark elves, sorcerers, though these are more fire and less spiders). As I vaguely recall (could be wrong on this one), the Tamriel setting of these games was based on an early 90s 2nd edition campaign someone ran.


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## caudor (Jan 3, 2012)

I was pleased with the inclusion of Eladrin, but it took me a few months before I discovered the correct pronunciation.

I've always had problems with getting the correct pronunciation of D&D terms.


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## Dausuul (Jan 3, 2012)

havard said:


> I actually thought this was a design feature rather than a flaw in 3E. The fact that the ability score modifiers suggested a rogue/Ranger type and the favored class was Wizard meant that the Elf would indeed do well with either option, just as intended.




Actually, what it meant in practice was they were bad at one and only tolerable at the other. Lack of Int bonus + Con penalty = lousy wizard in 3.X; with that d4 hit die you really can't afford to take a -1 every level without some sort of compensation, and +1 to AC, Reflex, and touch attacks wasn't enough. When dwarves make better wizards than elves, something is seriously wrong. And gnomes blew elves out of the water.

Elves were okay as rogues or archer-rangers, as long as they didn't multi-class.


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## Klaus (Jan 3, 2012)

jonesy said:


> But 2E Eladrin were a group of beings, not a singular race. The 4E eladrin are closest to Ghaele Eladrin from Planescape (in look). So why not just use the Ghaele? Why get rid of all the variation?



The variation is still there. You have bralani, ghaele, tulani (all in the Monster Manual), shiere (as a paragon path in PH2), coure (as a familiar in Heroes of the Feywild) and I brought back the shiradi in Heroes of the Feywild (formerly seen in the 3e Book of Exalted Deeds).


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## Ryujin (Jan 3, 2012)

I think that Wil Wheaton said it best; "Elves are the Eladrins' hillbilly cousins." Take an Eladrin out of the Feywild, for 10,000 years or so, and you get an Elf. Same race. Same physical appearance. Less innate magic. You play an Eladrin if you want to be an inscrutable and mysterious otherworldly being. 

... or if you just want to be superior to everyone else. Like Wil also said, "... because we deserve to look and feel pretty."


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## Pour (Jan 3, 2012)

havard said:


> I like the idea of a teleporting race, but why do they have to look and feel almost exactly like elves? Other than the game mechanical features this race seems really unnecessary.
> 
> What have I missed?
> 
> -Havard




I kind of like them. They are what elves once were, before they sullied themselves in the mortal world. They are intimately linked to the Feywild, and fit the popular niche of high elf. Eladrin overlap elves in many ways all the same- but that's probably because they are the combined elves of past editions. It seems impossible to not represent that side of the elven ideal in D&D, though.

Had they wanted to kill another sacred cow, which I often times advocate, I think they could have chosen wood elves as the only sort of elf, then named eladrin 'sidhe' outright, kept some of the angular, elven quality to them, but broadened the look as would befit mutable fey. One better, they could have rolled the sidhe and changeling into one race (I actually did this in my home brew) and had the beautiful/tall/aloof/nearing alien look largely decided by the individual player- whether elven, horned, albino- while at the same time giving more love and identity to the doppelganger race.


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Jan 3, 2012)

Dausuul said:


> They _are_ elves. 4E took the five classic elf subraces--high, grey, wild, wood, and dark--and turned them into three distinct races. High and grey elves merged into eladrin; wild and wood elves merged into 4E-elves; dark elves became (remained) drow.






Klaus said:


> Since the dawn of D&D, elves had two conflicting identities:
> 
> - "Sylvan" elves, who were good with bows and wise in the ways of nature. This image stems from Legolas, the archetypcal elf in Lord of the Rings.
> 
> ...




Correct. I would have preferred only one kind of elf, but splitting elves this way makes elven "subtypes" irrelevant and the game less confusing.

Want to play a star elf? Play an eladrin. I think they can get +2 Charisma as one of their stat options. You don't need yet another subrace 

I've never used eladrin in 3.x, even though they looked a little interesting, so to me removing eladrins as a planar race isn't a big deal. I suspect for any sort of converted plane-hopping campaign, some changes need to be made, one way or another.


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## Kzach (Jan 3, 2012)

It's not entirely fair to blame 4e on this since the love affair with elven sub-races started way back in 1e and blew out to ridiculousness in 2e. 3.x and 4e just continued the tradition.


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## Droogie128 (Jan 3, 2012)

To sum it up, it was to cure the identity crisis elves have always seem to have. It was also to address the "there's an elf for that" issue. Elves from previous editions have been narrowed down into 3 distinct races. The sub races are handled through racial feats now. It's much cleaner.


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## UngeheuerLich (Jan 4, 2012)

I believe the eladrin/elf distinction was the best, what could have happened to elves... you could have chosen different names (high elves and sylvan elves), but in the beginning, they really tried to avoid making subraces. IMHO a very good decision.
Maybe teleporting at first level was not considered wisely. But iron shackles of HotF (i got it today!) remedy this easily.


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## I'm A Banana (Jan 4, 2012)

If I had my iron-fisty druthers, there would be one ELF race. It would be good-looking (+2 Cha), good at magic (+2 Int), or good at woodsy stuff (or +2 Dex). It would get proficiency with bows and swords. It would have a racial power that was neither teleportation nor accuracy, but that emphasized the "elfiness" of the creature. Perhaps something like "elven perfection" which, as an encounter power, allows them to forgo rolling a d20 and instead just treat it as if they've rolled a 15, OR gain a +4 to AC against an attack as an immediate interrupt (and if the attack misses, they could shift). 

There would also be ELADRIN, who would be an NPC-only race of faerie beings from beyond the veil of the world, who would be tricky and capricious and very magical and generally benevolent, but ultimately all about freedom and independence. These entities may join up with the PC's as ally characters, or as trainers, or have special treasure for them, or can give them special missions. 

DROW would be their own thing, too (I'm thinking +2 Cha, +2 Wis or +2 Dex).

HALF-ELVES (and HALF-ORCS) would be a variant human. 

But personally part of this is because I'm not enthused about teleportation as a racial power. Especially teleporting such a short distance.


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## Crazy Jerome (Jan 4, 2012)

My only real beef with Eladrin is that including them was not taken as an opportunity to remove half-elves.


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## Klaus (Jan 4, 2012)

If the 4e eladrin-as-a-race hadn't happened, I'd have used elves as a race and "eladrin" as a paragon path (and "leshay" as an epic destiny).

As it is, I'm rather fond of eladrin being the fey race and elves being what happen when you're out of the Feywild for millenia.

I'd also make goblins into fey, and posit hobgoblins as what happens when they're out of the Feywild for too long. And trolls? Also fey.


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## Ryujin (Jan 4, 2012)

Crazy Jerome said:


> My only real beef with Eladrin is that including them was not taken as an opportunity to remove half-elves.




Given that a bit of Fey blood is an oft repeated theme in mythology, that wouldn't have been a good idea. It's essentially an archetype.


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## The Little Raven (Jan 4, 2012)

Ryujin said:


> Given that a bit of Fey blood is an oft repeated theme in mythology, that wouldn't have been a good idea. It's essentially an archetype.




In a number of the inspirational materials, when one is of half-blood, one usually takes after one parent or another. For instance, Elrond and his brother were both half-elves, and Elrond chose to be elfy and his brother chose to be humany, and each effectively had the traits of the chosen favored bloodline, rather than being a hybrid of the two or completely different ala 4e's half-elf.

With current 4e trends, I'd have made half-breed a special Background that gives you the racial keyword (in place of the other bonuses) so that you can qualify for the other feats by race, but you still need to to qualify for other requirements. Thus, a half-elf (human/elf) that chooses to favor human (human racial traits) can take any elf feat that he meets the requirement for (no ones needing Wild Step or anything).

I prefer that to coming up with specific half-races or having to break down exactly how racial traits get divided between pairings.


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## Ryujin (Jan 4, 2012)

The Little Raven said:


> In a number of the inspirational materials, when one is of half-blood, one usually takes after one parent or another. For instance, Elrond and his brother were both half-elves, and Elrond chose to be elfy and his brother chose to be humany, and each effectively had the traits of the chosen favored bloodline, rather than being a hybrid of the two or completely different ala 4e's half-elf.
> 
> With current 4e trends, I'd have made half-breed a special Background that gives you the racial keyword (in place of the other bonuses) so that you can qualify for the other feats by race, but you still need to to qualify for other requirements. Thus, a half-elf (human/elf) that chooses to favor human (human racial traits) can take any elf feat that he meets the requirement for (no ones needing Wild Step or anything).
> 
> I prefer that to coming up with specific half-races or having to break down exactly how racial traits get divided between pairings.




And yet games like Character Law/MERP still created a separate "Half Elf" designation, making the benefit of virtual immortality be based on philosophy, alone. The physical aspects of the two paths, for a Half Elf, seemed to be the same. Or so one would take from reading the stories, that these games are based upon.

In mythology it tended to be a touch of Fey blood, that conveyed various benefits and penalties.


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## Wormwood (Jan 4, 2012)

Kzach said:


> It's not entirely fair to blame 4e on this since the love affair with elven sub-races started way back in 1e and blew out to ridiculousness in 2e. 3.x and 4e just continued the tradition.



Even I look back with embarrassment at 2e's elf fetishism.


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## Matt James (Jan 4, 2012)

Klaus said:


> Since the dawn of D&D, elves had two conflicting identities:
> 
> - "Sylvan" elves, who were good with bows and wise in the ways of nature. This image stems from Legolas, the archetypcal elf in Lord of the Rings.
> 
> ...




Beat me to it, my friend!


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## Dice4Hire (Jan 4, 2012)

I am very glad we only have three versions of elf in 4E.

3.5 with its one-elf to break every single rule got kind of annoying.


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## Crazy Jerome (Jan 4, 2012)

Ryujin said:


> And yet games like Character Law/MERP still created a separate "Half Elf" designation, making the benefit of virtual immortality be based on philosophy, alone. The physical aspects of the two paths, for a Half Elf, seemed to be the same. Or so one would take from reading the stories, that these games are based upon.
> 
> In mythology it tended to be a touch of Fey blood, that conveyed various benefits and penalties.




I have no objection to there being creatures in the game that are effectively "half elven" or "part elf" or "my great, great grandfather was an elf--and still is--and I guess I got a bit of that." 

I do have an objection to using the "race" mechanic to model that, simply because it says "race" on the mechanic. It is already a relatively poor fit for modeling racial differences by blood as it is, but you can kind of see it for major delinations. But for "sort of elf", it is typically just a waste of space. If feats didn't conceptually remove the need for a "half-elf" race in 3E, the 4E backgrounds should have finished them off.  Right now, it is running on inertia alone. 

Ever heard the story of the grandmother that always cut about an inch off the roast when she cooked it.  The daughter and granddaughter faithfully followed this practice, assuming it had something to do with the way the juices cooked, or the herbs got in, or something.  They didn't really know.  Then one day the granddaughter had the grandmother over for dinner, and fixed the fabled roast.  The grandmother asked her why the ends were cut.  The daughter was surprised and explained.  The grandmother said, "I always cut them off because it didn't fit in the pot."

Half elves in 4E are roasts with the ends cut off for no good reason.


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## Mengu (Jan 4, 2012)

Dice4Hire said:


> I am very glad we only have three versions of elf in 4E.




Depends on how you count... There is Elf, Eladrin, Drow, Half-elf. Then there is Sun Elf, Moon Elf, Wild Elf, Wood Elf (respectively eladrin and elf variants). Then there are Revenant elves of all sorts. Then there is the short tricksy elves who call themselves gnomes, and the even shorter elves with wings, who call themselves pixies. If the tree hugging elf trope is not enough for you there is also now the tree hugger elf supreme, the Hamadryad, and the elf who grew barkskin and became the mobile tree, the Wilden. And while it's not a race per se, we can have vampire elves of all sorts, not to mention gypsy elves, and shadow elves, and christmas elves. You even have to be an elf to become a Sith Lord (though they use the elven spelling, Sidhe). I think we pretty much have elves coming out of our ears.

And here I thought humans were supposed to be the most diverse race... They are all turning werewolf these days. Yawn. At least their skin doesn't sparkle.


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## Jools (Jan 4, 2012)

Klaus said:


> The variation is still there. You have bralani, ghaele, tulani (all in the Monster Manual), shiere (as a paragon path in PH2), coure (as a familiar in Heroes of the Feywild) and I brought back the shiradi in Heroes of the Feywild (formerly seen in the 3e Book of Exalted Deeds).




Thats very interesting. What are the differences between these groups?


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## Ryujin (Jan 4, 2012)

Crazy Jerome said:


> I have no objection to there being creatures in the game that are effectively "half elven" or "part elf" or "my great, great grandfather was an elf--and still is--and I guess I got a bit of that."
> 
> I do have an objection to using the "race" mechanic to model that, simply because it says "race" on the mechanic. It is already a relatively poor fit for modeling racial differences by blood as it is, but you can kind of see it for major delinations. But for "sort of elf", it is typically just a waste of space. If feats didn't conceptually remove the need for a "half-elf" race in 3E, the 4E backgrounds should have finished them off.  Right now, it is running on inertia alone.
> 
> ...




That may well be a discussion for 5e, where backgrounds are concerned, but that mechanic didn't exist when 4e was first released.


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## Klaus (Jan 4, 2012)

Jools said:


> Thats very interesting. What are the differences between these groups?



Bralani, Ghaele and Tulani are nobility titles among the eladrin. In the MM these three have different powers that suit their portfolio (autumn winds, winter and summer, respectively). The MM2 offered the coure of mischief and strife (another nobility title). The shiere are the knights-errant of the eladrin. The coure sprite familiar from Heroes of the Feywild is more like a minor fey attendant. The shiradi champion stands outside the eladrin hierarchy, answering directly to the Queen of Summer, and serve as her personal champions.


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## Jools (Jan 4, 2012)

Klaus said:


> Bralani, Ghaele and Tulani are nobility titles among the eladrin. In the MM these three have different powers that suit their portfolio (autumn winds, winter and summer, respectively). The MM2 offered the coure of mischief and strife (another nobility title). The shiere are the knights-errant of the eladrin. The coure sprite familiar from Heroes of the Feywild is more like a minor fey attendant. The shiradi champion stands outside the eladrin hierarchy, answering directly to the Queen of Summer, and serve as her personal champions.




Thank you very much.


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## Argyle King (Jan 4, 2012)

I'm glad half-elves are in 4E.  It's by far my favorite race.


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## Shroomy (Jan 4, 2012)

Mengu said:


> Depends on how you count... There is Elf, Eladrin, Drow, Half-elf. Then there is Sun Elf, Moon Elf, Wild Elf, Wood Elf (respectively eladrin and elf variants). Then there are Revenant elves of all sorts. Then there is the short tricksy elves who call themselves gnomes, and the even shorter elves with wings, who call themselves pixies. If the tree hugging elf trope is not enough for you there is also now the tree hugger elf supreme, the Hamadryad, and the elf who grew barkskin and became the mobile tree, the Wilden. And while it's not a race per se, we can have vampire elves of all sorts, not to mention gypsy elves, and shadow elves, and christmas elves. You even have to be an elf to become a Sith Lord (though they use the elven spelling, Sidhe). I think we pretty much have elves coming out of our ears.
> 
> And here I thought humans were supposed to be the most diverse race... They are all turning werewolf these days. Yawn. At least their skin doesn't sparkle.




Aquatic elves have been mentioned in 4e sources, but not officially stated, and lets not forget the dusk elf or winterkin eladrin.


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## Spatula (Jan 4, 2012)

TerraDave said:


> No



Well, yes. High/grey elves have been in D&D since the early days. They usually weren't a PC race and weren't called eladrin (and eladrin referred to something else entirely), but they have always been there.



havard said:


> I actually thought this was a design feature rather than a flaw in 3E. The fact that the ability score modifiers suggested a rogue/Ranger type and the favored class was Wizard meant that the Elf would indeed do well with either option, just as intended.



Favored class in 3e doesn't mean that elves make good wizards, though. It doesn't mean anything unless you multiclass, and then it only says, "you can dip into wizard, or be a wizard and dip into another class, without penalty." But actually doing so would probably be a mistake, in terms of character effectiveness anyway, given the multiclassing issues with spellcasters.

Multiclassing issues aside, the favored class mechanics were probably a good way to model in 3e how elves had typically been portrayed in D&D in the past: not as the best wizards (1e capped them at level 11, I think), but as being a combo of wizard and something else (fighter, thief, fighter/thief, etc.). Which is to say, that most elves would know some magic.


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## TerraDave (Jan 4, 2012)

Spatula said:


> Well, yes. High/grey elves have been in D&D since the early days. They usually weren't a PC race and weren't called eladrin (and eladrin referred to something else entirely), but they have always been there.




No, again. 

I was referring to "Eladrin", but in terms of high elves, they were always the _explicit default_ until 4E. In OD&D and B/X D&D all elves could cast wizard spells (thought the way it worked in OD&D was really confusing) and were more high/grey then woodsy. High remained the default through 1E, 2E, and 3E. The wood/sylvan/wild elves were the option, starting with the 1E monster manual and getting stated up for players in Unearthed Arcana. (which also gave us drow as a player race, which could fight with two weapons, which led to Drizzt and a total munchkin build with the way 1E rangers added damage to their attacks, which led to two weapon rangers...but I digress).


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## Klaus (Jan 4, 2012)

Shroomy said:


> Aquatic elves have been mentioned in 4e sources, but not officially stated, and lets not forget the dusk elf or winterkin eladrin.



One of the Nerathi Legends article (Merindalion, Barony of the Emerald Blade, IIRC) had a feat for half-elves with an aquatic heritage.


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## Argyle King (Jan 5, 2012)

Depending on how you look at it, there are more varieties of human than there are varieties of elf in 4E.

PHB1

Human
Half-Elf
Tiefling

3

vs

Elf
Half-Elf
Eladrin

3

_tie_


Other sources I'm aware of
Vrykola (human)
Half-Orc (can be said to be human)
Kalashtar (psionic humans)
Mul (half-dwarf)

Drow (elf)
_
Humans 7 - Elves 4_

It could be argued that Mul and Kalashtar shouldn't count due to being setting specific.  In that case, humans edge out elves 5 to 4.


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## MrBeens (Jan 5, 2012)

Mengu said:


> Depends on how you count... There is Elf, Eladrin, Drow, Half-elf. Then there is Sun Elf, Moon Elf, Wild Elf, Wood Elf (respectively eladrin and elf variants). Then there are Revenant elves of all sorts. Then there is the short tricksy elves who call themselves gnomes, and the even shorter elves with wings, who call themselves pixies. If the tree hugging elf trope is not enough for you there is also now the tree hugger elf supreme, the Hamadryad, and the elf who grew barkskin and became the mobile tree, the Wilden. And while it's not a race per se, we can have vampire elves of all sorts, not to mention gypsy elves, and shadow elves, and christmas elves. You even have to be an elf to become a Sith Lord (though they use the elven spelling, Sidhe). I think we pretty much have elves coming out of our ears.
> 
> And here I thought humans were supposed to be the most diverse race... They are all turning werewolf these days. Yawn. At least their skin doesn't sparkle.




Then you have the short stocky hairy elves who call themselves dwarves, the short fat less hairy ones who call themselves halflings, the elves that went to live in the elemental chaos and called themselves Genasi etc.


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## Zaran (Jan 6, 2012)

Which elves are good at making cookies?


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## tuxgeo (Jan 8, 2012)

Zaran said:


> Which elves are good at making cookies?




Man, this straight-line has been sitting here untouched for over a _*day*_? 
(Is it that close to the Egress?) 

I don't think it's the Keebler elves; those guys all got booted up into middle management at about the time the Kellogg company acquired their operation. (That, or they had their positions eliminated for efficiency.) 
Sure, they still have an older guy as a spokes-elf; but they had to animate all of his footage in order to avoid showing his wrinkles. 

The cookies of the Keebler brand are probably made on a modern, automated production line these days--nothing like the older, hand-made delights of yesteryear.


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## Axios_Verum (May 15, 2017)

Actually, the Keebler elves and Christmas elves are the same elves. But this is where it gets interesting: both elves are derived from the nordic svartalfar, black-skinned elves who were crafty and smaller than the ljosalfar, the light-elves. So the Keebler and Christmas elves are actually Drow in disguise.


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 15, 2017)

Not disguise, high SPF zinc sunscreen.


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