# D&D Miniatures Question



## SpuneDagr (Sep 15, 2003)

Hey.
Does anybody know if the new line of minatures is to scale? That is to say: If humans are 25 mm tall, are halflings 13 mm? Are trolls and umber hulks taller?

Are there gonna be any HUGE minis? I'd loooove to have a scale bullette.


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## Green Knight (Sep 15, 2003)

SpuneDagr said:
			
		

> Hey.
> Does anybody know if the new line of minatures is to scale? That is to say: If humans are 25 mm tall, are halflings 13 mm? Are trolls and umber hulks taller?
> 
> Are there gonna be any HUGE minis? I'd loooove to have a scale bullette.




Humans are gonna be about 25-28 mm tall, with everything else in proportion to them. Here's a pic which demonstrates. 

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MinisLineUpBySize.jpg 

And no Huge minis in the immediate future. Just Small, Medium, and Large.


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## SpuneDagr (Sep 15, 2003)

Thanks GK!
That ogre looks AWESOME!!!


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## SpuneDagr (Sep 15, 2003)

Is there a difference in the types of minis you get from the starter pack as opposed to the expansion packs, or is it just quantity?


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## TalonComics (Sep 15, 2003)

SpuneDagr said:
			
		

> Is there a difference in the types of minis you get from the starter pack as opposed to the expansion packs, or is it just quantity?




I think somewhere there is a rarity break down but I don't know it off the top of my head. Usually, in most collectible games, the booster is the way to go for maximum rares and uncommons.

Personally, I hope WotC wises up and abandons the whole collectible aspect of this game.

~D


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## Green Knight (Sep 15, 2003)

It's just quantity and rarity level. 

Expansion Packs ($9.99) come with: 


1 Rare 
3 Uncommons 
4 Commons
 
Entry Packs ($19.99) come with: 


1 Rare 
5 Uncommons 
10 Commons
 
Entry Packs also come with a buttload of other things, like a D20, basic skirmish rules, map grid, 8 terrain cards, a Harbinger checklist, and some other things. 

As for that picture, my personal favorite from there is the Cleric of Gruumsh. That guy looks damned nice. I also like his stats in the miniature game, too. I'm already picturing an Orc horde in my head built around that guy.


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## Djeta Thernadier (Sep 15, 2003)

From what I've seen, just ads in magazines There was a poster sized ad with a bunch of them in Dungeon (I think it was in Dungeon...I'm at work right now and I can't recall so don't quote me on that) this past month. 

They look awesome. They had some labeled as common, rare, etc.

Does anyone have a link to pictures of them online?

There weren't that many female figures on the ad I saw, but hopefully as more come out, that will change. I really liked the Centaur and the Mummies will be cool for when I run my Egypt game 

I'm sure a secondary market will pop up for trading etc.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Sep 15, 2003)

Why is there a need for rarity in figures for D&D...?  Seems to me this isn't for D&D but a shot at mageknight.


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## Pants (Sep 15, 2003)

The Mummy, Blackguard, and Executioner are all incredibly cool looking.
Looks like I'll be building a Lawful Evil warband


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## Zenon (Sep 15, 2003)

Djeta Thernadier said:
			
		

> From what I've seen, just ads in magazines There was a poster sized ad with a bunch of them in Dungeon (I think it was in Dungeon...I'm at work right now and I can't recall so don't quote me on that) this past month.



Dragon #312 has the poster insert with all the figs on it.


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## Djeta Thernadier (Sep 15, 2003)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Why is there a need for rarity in figures for D&D...?  Seems to me this isn't for D&D but a shot at mageknight.





Agreed. It is kind of annoying but I think once a secondary trading sort of market opens up, it won't be so bad. I guess from the WotC side of things, the collectible nature of these may bring them in more cash.


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## Green Knight (Sep 15, 2003)

Djeta Thernadier said:
			
		

> From what I've seen, just ads in magazines There was a poster sized ad with a bunch of them in Dungeon (I think it was in Dungeon...I'm at work right now and I can't recall so don't quote me on that) this past month.
> 
> They look awesome. They had some labeled as common, rare, etc.
> 
> ...




Here you go. 

http://www.maxminis.com/ 

Just click "Mini Pics" at the top. 

You can find more information on the minis, here. 

http://www.geocities.com/merricb/mini.htm


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## Green Knight (Sep 15, 2003)

Djeta Thernadier said:
			
		

> Agreed. It is kind of annoying but I think once a secondary trading sort of market opens up, it won't be so bad. I guess from the WotC side of things, the collectible nature of these may bring them in more cash.




I've already seen a bunch of these for sale on eBay from anywhere from $1 to $3.


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## Green Knight (Sep 15, 2003)

Pants said:
			
		

> The Mummy, Blackguard, and Executioner are all incredibly cool looking.
> Looks like I'll be building a Lawful Evil warband




My personal favorites so far are: 


Cleric of Order 
Dwarf Axefighter 
Large Earth Elemental 
Man-At-Arms 
Human Wanderer 
Vadania 
Thri-Kreen Ranger 
Human Blackguard 
Mind Flayer 
Cleric of Gruumsh 
Drow Cleric of Lolth 
Troll
 
I'll definitely be building a Lawful Good Warband. Can't wait to start killing evil critters and elves left and right with my Earth Elemental.  I'd also like to put together a Chaotic Evil Warband for the sole purpose of forming an orc warband. The Cleric of Gruumsh has an ability called "Faction Builder", which allows any orc/half-orc to be part of his warband, despite alignment conflict. So Krusk, the Half-Orc Monk, and the Half-Orc Fighter, who're Chaotic Good, Lawful Neutral, and Lawful Evil respectively, can work with the Chaotic Evil Orcs so long as the Cleric of Gruumsh is selected.


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## KenM (Sep 15, 2003)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Why is there a need for rarity in figures for D&D...?  Seems to me this isn't for D&D but a shot at mageknight.





  The starter set comes with skirmish rules, so you can play a combat game with the mini's. Hench the rarity. WoTC is trying to go for the mage knight market, these mini's replace chainmail.
    I just wish they did not do random packs. If i want 5 orc's, I want to buy 5 orc's, not hope I get them in packs.


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## MerricB (Sep 16, 2003)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Why is there a need for rarity in figures for D&D...? Seems to me this isn't for D&D but a shot at mageknight.




I really hate to break this to you, but every single miniature line that has ever been released has had rarity in its figures. Same for D&D monsters.

Think about it. How many orc figures are there? How many orcs are encountered in typical D&D games?

Right. Now think about the same for the flumph.

Hmm. I detect a difference in rarity (or commonality).

Because the D&D Miniatures sets are relatively small, collecting the common figures won't be difficult. Getting hold of some of the rares will be - and that's a pain for things like the Ogre. For a figure like the Mind-flayer, things get more complex.

The Ogre's rarity is not really a problem. That's because you can get it in metal easily enough. It's somewhat of a pain if you're wanting to participate in Organised Play where only the official figure will do, but that's a different matter to wanting the figures for the RPG game or a casual game.

The Mindflayer's rarity; now that can be a problem. If you need some mindflayers for a session, it's not something that can be easily attained in metal.

However, at this point you run up against the problem WotC has with miniatures: there has to be something dramatically different about their figures to allow them to compete against the established miniature lines. It's no good if they are "just another Reaper". That just splits the existing market, and thus lower sales for both. Hmm.

One of the attractions WotC has is that it can create specific figures for the D&D game. But that's not enough by itself - certainly not in the metal miniatures market. The reason it's not enough is though there are several unique D&D monsters, very few of them are of such a nature that large quantities would be bought by miniature enthusiasts. The D&D line needs more.

Thus, random, plastic, pre-painted miniatures, scaled for D&D (28mm).

Plastic -> portable. Don't underestimate this. Ask some of the metal miniature enthusiasts how they pack their miniatures for transport, and how antsy they get when people roll dice near their miniatures. One of the selling points of this line is that the figures can take some pretty rough punishment.

Pre-painted -> quick, and appealing to those who don't like painting miniatures, or who never, ever want to paint another orc.

Scale -> One of the selling points over Mage Knight. I love the MK figures for their cheapness, but their scale is completely wonky for D&D. They don't even scale with each other, a lot of the time. The bases are just wrong for D&D as well. (and don't fit with existing 25-28mm miniature lines, either).

Random -> Have you noticed how cheap the D&D miniatures are? They're cheaper than the MageKnight figures are! You _could_ have cheap plastic figures without them being random, but there's one problem there.

That problem is how many _different_ sculpts can be made. IIRC, Games Workshop make some very cheap sets of generic plastic orc figures. But, you won't find their more special sculpts in plastic - or at least not cheaply. Unusual figures won't sell very well, and the price for them reaches a point at which it is more economical not to produce the figure at all.

The random nature of the D&D line means that low percentage figures can be made. Because this is D&D, there's a fair chance that a DM will find a use for them. And that's good for those people who want unusual figures. For those that don't want them... well, they'll be rare and hard to get.

For those that want orcs, and don't want the random chance, the secondary market will provide - and probably quite cheaply. Ditto for the mindflayer, though the cost will be more than you might like. OTOH, the current option is to NOT have a mindflayer at all. Oh, goody.

Finally, it should be said that this line will not replace the need for quality metal figures. I would fully expect that most RPG groups will buy the D&D Miniatures line for a basic supply of creatures to fight, then go into the metals for PC figures and specific creatures that are available from the established manufacturers. It would be nice if, at some point, WotC came to an arrangement with Reaper or another company to do some specific D&D-themed metal miniatures, but that would be dependent on the success of this line.

Cheers!


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## TalonComics (Sep 16, 2003)

Eh... All of the monster minis that I'm interested in are rares and frankly I can *buy at any time* as a Reaper Mini. I guess we'll have to see how these do but I truly think WotC would be better off just selling pre-built sets.

~D


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## MerricB (Sep 16, 2003)

TalonComics said:
			
		

> Eh... All of the monster minis that I'm interested in are rares and frankly I can *buy at any time* as a Reaper Mini. I guess we'll have to see how these do but I truly think WotC would be better off just selling pre-built sets.




Which basically shows how much you are not the target market.

* You paint
* You assemble
* You are prepared to pay a higher price.

WotC _are_ making available two pre-built sets - the Orcish Warparty (Ogre, 3 Orc Archers, 6 Orc Warriors, 1 Orc Berserker, 1 Goblin sneak, 4 Kobold Warriors) and the Outlaw Warpart (Owlbear, Cleric of Order, Dwarf Axefighter, Halfling Veteran, Human Wanderer, 3 Elf Archers, 5 Man-at-arms, 2 Wolves).

Consider this: how interested would the D&D Miniature line be to you if you didn't have any miniatures for use with the D&D line? At that point, almost every miniature is of use to you. (And it must be stated that most of the figures are evil/monster figures).

Cheers!


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## trancejeremy (Sep 16, 2003)

> It would be nice if, at some point, WotC came to an arrangement with Reaper or another company to do some specific D&D-themed metal miniatures, but that would be dependent on the success of this line.




I don't think they need to - it's my understanding that Reaper already does this, more or less. They might not be the same name, but they look like the monster in question. 


Anyway, what I think the problem is, is that miniature painters tend to be elitists, and any idea of the average person having cheap, painted minis for their game offends them.  They gripe about how they want WOTC to do this or that, but they have literally 100s of companies making metal minis. But how many companies make plastic ones? Very few.


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## KnowTheToe (Sep 16, 2003)

Reads MerricB's posts.  See reflection of my own beliefs.  I know I cannot word it better.  I decide not to post.


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## Omand (Sep 18, 2003)

As one of those DMs unskilled in the art of painting miniatures, I certainly will be giving the new line a look once it is out.  I have seen samples and most of the promo pictures, and generally I have liked what I have seen.

Certainly, the war party sets will help me round out my sets for RPG use if I decide to buy.  I would have preferred to have that sort of control over buying all of the minis, but I can understand why WotC went in the direction it did.  Once they get into releasing dragons and other rare single creatures I know that I will likely benefit from the random nature of the packaging.

If only the cool wraith figure were not a rare.  I could use a half dozen or more of those for a campaign idea.


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## MerricB (Sep 19, 2003)

SpuneDagr said:
			
		

> Hey.
> Does anybody know if the new line of minatures is to scale? That is to say: If humans are 25 mm tall, are halflings 13 mm? Are trolls and umber hulks taller?
> 
> Are there gonna be any HUGE minis? I'd loooove to have a scale bullette.



Just got an update from Rob Heinsoo on the scale issue: the first sethas a couple of problems - in particular the human commoner which is larger than it should be. (He calls it a "corn-fed commoner" )

As normal, see my webpage for the latest news.

Cheers!


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## pogre (Sep 19, 2003)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Anyway, what I think the problem is, is that miniature painters tend to be elitists, and any idea of the average person having cheap, painted minis for their game offends them.  They gripe about how they want WOTC to do this or that, but they have literally 100s of companies making metal minis. But how many companies make plastic ones? Very few.




Yeah! and we're not letting you in the club  

Seriously, as a lead head I really hope these new figs are a huge success for WOTC. We were talking about it at my game the other night and I see this as a win / win for everybody. As others have expertly pointed out these figures are not intended for folks with sizeable painted collections. However, I do hope the game draws some into the miniature hobby - I like to think of it as a gateway habit to miniature mayhem. Those it does not bring in - well, they were not coming anyway.

I agree with MerricB on the transportation issue - if my minis did not have a permanent home next to the gaming table I would be looking at these minis seriously. I may pick up a few packs for con games anyway.


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## psionotic (Sep 23, 2003)

*When?*

The release date on the front page of EN World says "September".  Anyone seen any of these in stores yet?  if not, is there anyone who knows when retailers are going to have these?


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## Omand (Sep 23, 2003)

psionotic said:
			
		

> The release date on the front page of EN World says "September".  Anyone seen any of these in stores yet?  if not, is there anyone who knows when retailers are going to have these?




Release date is supposed to be September 26 for Australia, Canada, the US and the UK (at least).  See the link to MerricB's page given a couple of posts up for more detail.

Cheers


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## psionotic (Sep 23, 2003)

Omand said:
			
		

> Release date is supposed to be September 26 for Australia, Canada, the US and the UK (at least).  See the link to MerricB's page given a couple of posts up for more detail.
> 
> Cheers





Thanks, Omand!

Your site rocks, btw, MerricB.  Its a great resource.


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## qstor (Sep 23, 2003)

The owner of my FLGS said the release date in the US is Sept 29th.

Mike


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## Omand (Sep 24, 2003)

psionotic said:
			
		

> Thanks, Omand!
> 
> Your site rocks, btw, MerricB.  Its a great resource.




You are welcome.  That said, I just get my info from checking on other sites, especially MerricB's, so all kudos to him.

Cheers


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## Omand (Sep 24, 2003)

qstor said:
			
		

> The owner of my FLGS said the release date in the US is Sept 29th.
> 
> Mike




I know that early posts (August, 1st week of September) on various messageboards that I read stated that this was the release date in the US.  It might still be for certain distributors.  From what I have picked up on MerricB's site and the WotC messageboards (direct from Mike Donais, one of the minis people), however, the US release date is suppose to be this Friday, September 26.

With all of the pre-ordering going on, those of us actually looking to see these things on shelves might wait later than the 29th. 
 

Cheers


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## Zander (Sep 24, 2003)

The release date in the UK is definitely 26 Sept (this Friday). I know from a couple of reliable sources.

I would be surprised if that wasn't the worldwide date. So it looks like Omand was right.


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## Stormborn (Oct 1, 2003)

One of the FLGS here in Birmingham, AL had some last Friday.  I got an Entry pack.  First one to buy one.  I liked them, everyone was different, paint jobs ranged from great to fair, but they were a little bent.  I went back Monday and they had sold out but said they would have more on Friday.  

I like them, mainly because I can't paint at all.  They don't look as good as the ones some of my friends paint, but better than I could do.  And servicable.


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## MerricB (Oct 9, 2003)

psionotic said:
			
		

> Your site rocks, btw, MerricB. Its a great resource.



Thank you very much. Hopefully I'll be able to stick with it and keep it useful and informative. The front page needs a redesign that I might get around to this weekend.

Amurayi on the wizards boards has created some extremely nice Terrain Tiles which he's put up on his site: http://www.lemonbutter.com/dd

Really worth having a look at them.

I finally have some of the miniatures: 1 Entry Pack + 4 Expansion Packs. Pretty happy with my selection (includes a Medusa, Dire Boar, Sword of Heironeous, Blackguard and Drow Cleric of Lolth). Lidda is absolutely _tiny_! I missed her in the box when I opened it, and only discovered her when I did a count and found I was one miniature short. A perusal of my cards revealed that Lidda was hiding somewhere... 

I'll get to play the game tomorrow, and I'll do a review of the game sometime in the next week or so. (Recently I've been appointed as a Staff Reviewer for the 3rdedition.org site - my first review for them has just appeared: of Sean K. Reynolds' _Anger of Angels_).

Cheers!


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