# Good races for druids



## tecnowraith

Im a about to start a new campaign set in the Savage Tide AP campaign and I am thinking about playing a Druid. The thing I am stuck on for the character is which race would be good to play? I do not like playing humans or any race above LA +0. My focus would be spellcasting and wildshape to give you an idea. Thanks


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## Ridley's Cohort

Gnome -- Con bonus for extra HPs, can ride the Animal Companion for mobility, Low Light vision

Dwarf -- Con bonus for extra HPs, lose some movement but Wildshape makes up for that somewhat, Darkvision

Human -- Extra Feat and Skill points are valuable for many styles of Druid.  The Feat is particularly nice for melee-centric Druids, but taking PrCs is an alternative method to gain a melee boost

Half-Elf -- Face Man is a plausible party role if you Int is good (and a lot more historically accurate than the hippy druid, if you care about that kind of thing)


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## Nifft

Agree with *Ridley's Cohort* about Human and Dwarf.

Also consider the *Halfling* -- Before Wild Shape, you are good with a sling; after Wild Shape, you are good at everything.

Cheers, -- N


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## frankthedm

AP are hard so the usually plan of a gnome druid dumpstating Str and Dex and spending all his time in _wildshape_ might not work since you have to live for a while.


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## Tetsubo

I've always wanted to play a Neanderthal Druid with the Shapeshift ability...


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## nittanytbone

Which version of the Druid are we talking?

Original PHB?  PHB with errata?  PHB II shapeshift variant?  One of the UA variants?


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## tecnowraith

PHB with errata


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## Jack Simth

tecnowraith said:
			
		

> PHB with errata



In that case, I'd suggest a Halfling rider build for 1st through 4th, followed by a fairly standard DZilla build at 5th+.  A Dwarven build (for the darkvision and Con) or Gnome build (for the Con and small size) is also very solid.

You need:
Stats:
Keep Wisdom (spells) and Constitution (hit points).  Dump strength (you're listed desire says nothing about melee - so stay out of it before you get Wild Shape).  Charisma is useful (for Handle Animal), but will become progressively less so as your skill ranks in Handle Animal go up;   Don't invest too heavily in it.   

Feats:
Eh, a Druid's feats are mostly flavor, except the 6th level feat, which for a power-player, is pretty much always Natural Spell.  For a halfling Rider, you might want to pick up Mounted Combat at 1st (for the ability to roll your Animal Companion's Armor Class once per round) but it's not going to be overly valuable later on (when Wildshape takes over).  If you can convince your DM it works that way, and the feat is available, use Natural Bond to mitigate the adjustment on the advanced animal companions.  Other feat slots?  Go with either metamagic type stuff for later spellcasting, or item creation feats for making stuff that's useful to you (although it's better if you can convince the party Wizard to take the feats and collaberate on the gear).  Weapon Finess will come in very handy with certain wildshape forms, and Improved Initiative is always a solid choice.  Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple are also surprisingly useful (mostly because Grappling enables other party members, namely the Rogue), especially with forms that get Rake.

Skills:
1st-4th, max Concentration (for spellcasting), Handle Animal (for training your animal companion, so you can justify directing it intelligently), Ride (as you'll be riding a lot), Spot (always good to know what's sneaking up on you), and Listen (ditto).  Other skills to taste.
5th+: Drop Handle Animal and Ride; otherwise, same as above.

Animal Companion: 
Train your animal companion for Combat Riding.  It's usually the way to go, has really useful set of tricks.  Use Druid Bonus Trick 1 for getting the upgraded attack (attack anything).  Later on, Work and Fetch are useful.
1st-3rd: Riding Dog; this is the combat monkey of the 1st level group.
4th+: Either go with a Dire Bat for the permanent Fly speed, or an Ape for the combat monkey.  At some difficult to define point, the mobility from the Dire Bat will outweigh the flagging combat usefulness of the Ape - at which point, you stick with the Dire Bat.  The reduced druidic abilities of the higher-level companions usually aren't worth it.

Equipment: 
Get leather barding for your animal companion (until the critter's Dex bonus is higher).  No ACP, so proficiency doesn't matter, and it's rather cheap.  

Tactics (assuming Core)
1st-4th: Take a Riding Dog (as it's the combat monkey of the 1st level group) and ride it basically full-time.  This permits you to do melee even with no strength (as it's the dog that's attacking).  Spend your combat actions either using buffing and Healing spells on the mutt, or with combat control spells (Entangle!).  If the situation doesn't warrant spells, use a sling.  
5th+: Wildshape into a melee monster and go to town with your self-buffs up.  Do remember to share them (freely with your Animal Companion, at a cost of slots with your party members).  
5th-7th, a deinonychus is about the best Core combat form, although some DM's nix dinosaurs.  If no-go on the deinonychus, try a leopard.  Do pay attention to the Errata - the Deinonychus was moved down from Large to Medium.
At 8th, you want a Megaraptor (basically an upgraded deinonychus) or a Dire Lion unless something's restricting you to Medium or small sizes (e.g., dungeon walls).  You'll have a lower speed and fewer attacks, but a better chance to hit and more base damage as a Dire Lion.  Dire Lion has better special attacks, though.
At 16th, you want a Dire Tiger.


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## nittanytbone

If you're allowed to bring in a bit out non-core material, the Races of the Wild has some interesting racial substitution levels that work nicely for mounted halfling druids.


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## tecnowraith

Would Mongrelfolk (RoD) would with their +4 to con or Killoren from (RotW) work?


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## Ridley's Cohort

Gnome riding a Wolf (or Riding Dog) is very good at low levels, BTW.

I often would charge in and Aid Other my pooch rather that bother attacking -- they are unreliable but Trips are very useful.  Either Aid Other, Produce Flame, or Summon were my meat and potatoes.


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## Shayuri

Huh. I enjoy an elf druid...both thematically and mechanically.

The elf weapon proficiencies are nice...longbow druid. Granted, they don't help as much once you're wildshaping a lot, but you can't wildshape -every- time.   When I do an elf druid, I usually focus on spellcasting (elves are good for ranged touches too), with wildshape reserved for when a backup melee combatant is needed, ambushes, and escapes.

It's also fun when a monk rushes over to grapple the wimpy elf caster...only to find he's got an armful of angry grizzly bear.


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## Darklone

Halfling rocks. Especially with a Wis bonus and a monk level.


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## Nifft

Darklone said:
			
		

> Halfling rocks. Especially with a Wis bonus and a monk level.



 You like the XP penalty?!

, -- N


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## blargney the second

An elf druid is fun: TWF with a Shillelagh.  Yeehaw!
-blarg


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## krissbeth

I like playing human for druid because of the extra feat and skill points.  Druids are pretty lacking with the feats to begin with and squeezing in a "Scribe Scrolls" for those extra spells you just can't do without is a good thing.


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## tecnowraith

Darklone said:
			
		

> Halfling rocks. Especially with a Wis bonus and a monk level.




Where are you getting the Wis bonus from?


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## Demoquin

The poster must be referring to actually having a decent WIS score in the first place. Adding a monk lvl would add WIS to AC. *And many other goodies*


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## Darklone

tecnowraith said:
			
		

> Where are you getting the Wis bonus from?



Variant halfling race from Kalamar. Golden Halflings. 

Niffty: 
XP penalty: Yes, it might hurt, but many groups play without it anyhow. That halfling mentioned above was a replacement char and so had one or two levels less than the rest of the group... comparable to an XP penalty for an original character who played the whole campaign.

Still: He easily rocked the battlefield. Wildshaped druids suffer from the animals main problem: Low AC. Now this one had AC 30+ in animal form. Easily wrestled a dragon from the sky when I did a test fight for the final climax of the campaign (Though that dragon missed it's vampiric blackguard rider at that point).

Edit: Next point for halflings, especially with that monk level: Saves! And if you can afford to lose two spellcaster levels and you've ever been attacked by scout archers with Imp Skirmish, Deflect Arrow doesn't sound that bad anymore.


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## Hejdun

It's kind of hard to go wrong with a race for druid.  You don't really have to worry about Str or Dex, and not many give a bonus to Wis, so everything is pretty much on neutral ground.  I like gnome because the Str penalty doesn't really hurt you, while the Con is always handy.  Low light vision is always nice to have, and the cantrips are surprisingly useful.

In general, the best are:

1) Anything that gives you a feat
2) Small size
3) Everything else


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## Ridley's Cohort

Low-light vision is superb if you actually spend your time outdoors.  Which might make a lot of sense for a druid...   

(It helps a bit underground, as well.)


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## Darklone

Ridley's Cohort said:
			
		

> Low-light vision is superb if you actually spend your time outdoors.  Which might make a lot of sense for a druid...
> 
> (It helps a bit underground, as well.)



It helps a lot, just take care that you don't carry the light.

Dancing Lights and shooting Xbow bolts with Light cast upon them is a good tactic. You see them, they don't see you.


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## Lopke_Quasath

I rather enjoy playing my *Goblin* druid right now.
Riding Dog companion. Mounted Combat feat.
Throwing javelins around.
Got the Darkvision, got the 30 ft speed when I hop off the dog for those inaccessible areas (down/up ladders, cliffs, etc).
The Charisma penalty is doable, and I made sure I still have a positive mod. for Wild Empathy.

Leather barding on the dog really does help. 

I'm at 3rd level now. At 4th level I'm going to switch Mounted Combat for Natural Bond (Complete Adventurer), using PHB II re-training rules, and let loose my riding dog for an ape.
1 level later I'll get Wildshape and do as I please 

Really good fun!


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## Felix

Goblin.

Small size and 30ft. movement. Best possible combination for a spellcaster, and you can Wildshape when you want a different form.


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## Jack Simth

Yes, and with the errata, you keep the darkvision from being a goblin when in other forms.

Oh, and Lopke_Quasath?
Don't let natural bond mitigate the level-adjusted animal companions; slap some leather barding on a Natural Bonded Ape and he beats out the DMG NPC Barbarian-5 (when the Barbarian is Raging) when the Druid is at 4th level.   This is even ignoring the spells the Druid casts on his Ape (such as Barkskin or Magic Fang) that make it even stronger.  You don't really want to do the whole "I have special abilities that are more powerful than your entire class" thing too much.


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## Lopke_Quasath

Noted Jack Simth 

As some additional details, the group I play with only has 3 players and the DM. My spells mostly heal up the Orc barbarian (who is much better at fighting than anything else, using his 'kingstick', a fence post he found on the ground [effectively Greatclub]) and the kobold sorcerer. My 2nd level spells will be putting Barkskin on the orc (his AC is terrible).

Yes, we are the "reverse evil" party    All of us are good alignment, kicked out of our tribes.

My companion is the other big hitter in combat, and we need him.

Also, my 3rd level feat is Jack of All Trades. My druid is also the skill monkey....  
So, I'm not exactly powergaming, just trying to cover all the bases. This group is a blast to play with!

Did I mention the Orc has Int 5, and the Kobold Int 9? And the kobold can't speak Common 

Man, it's fun


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## szilard

I played a Gray Elf druid, which worked well. At low levels, the Dex bonus and longbow proficiency helped a lot. The Int bonus meant I could get a ton of skills, which never gets old. Once you get wild shape, the strength penalty isn't much of a problem (and, before that, it is minimized through reliance on archery).

Also, if you max out Spot/Listen (which isn't hard with an Int bonus), your elven bonuses, Wisdom bonuses, and eventual benefits due to wild shape will make you obscenely perceptive.

-Stuart


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## eamon

Jack Simth said:
			
		

> Don't let natural bond mitigate the level-adjusted animal companions;



That would indeed be a rules abuse.  Natural bond is clearly intended to be limited by your character level - in other words, you can't use natural bond selectively half-way the animal companion process:  (As in "My druid is 4th level, so he can select an Ape, and that ape get's bonuses from the table based on my druid level -3, which is 1, oh but I have natural bond, so it's 4").  

Wow... the things people think up... there are actually groups out there that let that fly??


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## Legildur

eamon said:
			
		

> That would indeed be a rules abuse.  Natural bond is clearly intended to be limited by your character level - in other words, you can't use natural bond selectively half-way the animal companion process:  (As in "My druid is 4th level, so he can select an Ape, and that ape get's bonuses from the table based on my druid level -3, which is 1, oh but I have natural bond, so it's 4").
> 
> Wow... the things people think up... there are actually groups out there that let that fly??



I think you might need to search some of the not so old threads around Natural Bond.  If I recall correctly, as written, it allows exactly what you consider to be 'rules abuse'. The argument is pretty persuasive.


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## Jack Simth

eamon said:
			
		

> That would indeed be a rules abuse.  Natural bond is clearly intended to be limited by your character level - in other words, you can't use natural bond selectively half-way the animal companion process:  (As in "My druid is 4th level, so he can select an Ape, and that ape get's bonuses from the table based on my druid level -3, which is 1, oh but I have natural bond, so it's 4").



A bit abusive, yes.  

DMG NPC Barbarian-5 has 43 HP, 18 AC, +2 Initiative, Greataxe +10 (1d12+4); when Raging, that's 53 HP, 16 AC, +2 Initiative, Greataxe +12 (1d12+7).

Meanwhile, the Natural Bonded Ape with Leather Barding gets 42 HP, AC 19, +3 Initiative, 2 claws +9 melee (1d6+6) and bite +4 melee (1d6+3).

Ignoring crits...

The Raging Barbarian-5 hits the Ape on a roll of 7, for an average damage per hit of 13.5; average of 9.45 damage per round.  The Ape goes down in about 4.44 rounds in a slugfest.
The Ape hits the Raging Barbarian on a rolls of 7 (left claw)/7 (right claw)/12 (bite), dealing an average of 9.5/9.5/6.5 on each hit; average damage per round on a full attack of 16.225 damage.  The Raging Barbarian goes down in about 3.26 rounds in a slugfest.  
The Druid-5's Natural Bonded Ape with Leather Barding beats the Raging Barbarian-5 in melee ... and the Druid has had this exact Ape build since 4th, potentially, and the Ape gets another two points of attack and two points of AC when the Druid hits 6th.

The calm Barbarian hits the Ape on a roll of 9, for an average damage per hit of 10.5; average damage of 6.3 per round. Ape is expected to go down in about 6.67 rounds in a slugfest.
The Ape hits the calm barbarian on rolls of 9/9/14, for the same damage on a hit of 9.5/9.5/6.5; average damage 13.675 per round.  calm Barbarian is expected to go down in about 3.14 rounds.
The Druid-5's Natural Bonded Ape with Leather Barding beats the calm Barbarian-5 in melee ... and the Druid has had this exact Ape build since 4th, potentially, and the Ape gets another two points of attack and two points of AC when the Druid hits 6th.

Oh yeah - and I'm ignoring the Ape's 6th Hit Die feat that it gets from Natural Bond.

With Barbarian and Druid at equal levels, the DMG NPC Barbarian starts to be able to beat up the Natural Bonded Ape with Leather Barding at around level 8 or 10.  The Ape, though, comes with a Druid who can strengthen him further (either riding in a custom saddle and sharing spells for free, standing right next to the Ape and sharing spells for free while also fighting, or not sharing spells but flanking).  DMG NPC Barbarian not so much.  And the Ape is easier to replace than is the Barbarian.


			
				eamon said:
			
		

> Wow... the things people think up... there are actually groups out there that let that fly??



Yes.  Rational groups, even.

Firstly, the DMG NPC Barbarian isn't exactly optimized with what he has (I'm using him simply because it's less work for me to just grab the statistics than to build a good Barbarian).  There's probably a Shock Trooper Leap Attack Barbarian-5 build out there somewhere that'll take out the Natural Bonded Ape on a Charge in one hit, while being able to survive two or three rounds of pounding from the Ape.

Secondly, the DMG NPC Barbarian doesn't have grand stats; he has the elite array, which is a 25 point buy distributed in an ok, but not optimal, manner.  The PC Barbarian is quite possibly on a 32 point buy distributed more optimally, with more equipment distributed more optimally.

Thirdly, some parties don't have all roles covered - if the Meat shield role is otherwise missing, then it's fine for the Druid to do this, as the ape isn't overshadowing a PC (which is usually what causes problems more than the rest).

Fourth, some parties don't mind cheesy characters; as long as basically everyone in the party is roughly equally cheesy, the DM can simply step up the CR of opponents to compensate.

Fifth, the DMG NPC Barbarian will win if played intelligently - he's got a bow, and he can move faster (if he sheds that silly Medium armor, he goes 40 feet per round).  One round of Withdrawing, and the Barbarian is out of Charge range on the Ape (20 foot lead).  If he thereafter runs, he picks up another 40 feet of lead each round.  On Round 1, he Withdrawls; round 2, he runs.  On round 3, he's 60 feet away from the Ape, so fires his bow and moves 40 feet further away - ape catches up only on a Run (and thus can't attack).  Barbarian repeats the procedure.  It'll take an age, and a large open area, but the Barbarian WILL win.  Just not in a slugfest like the class is built for.

Three and four are situational, but if either is present, it's perfectly OK for the Druid to Natural Bond this way all by their lonesome.  One, two, and five are pretty much universal for mechanics-skilled Barbarian players, and will keep the Ape from outshining the Barbarian at lower levels.


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