# (ASoI&F - spoilers) Why the hatred for Stannis Baratheon?



## King_Stannis (Jan 8, 2003)

I have visited the "Ring of Ice and Fire" boards, dedicated to Martin's series, and I've noticed a common theme. Many of the members over there simply DESPISE the character of Stannis Baratheon. Absolutely hate him. They immediately point out that he was willing to sacrafice his own blood - his nephew, I believe it was - in order to gain the throne. They fail to see that he did not want to kill the boy, and if he did it was because the fate of Westeros depended upon him gaining the throne. 

Yeah, yeah, I know about Melisandre. That's a confusing issue. He listens to her council because she has pretty much been spot-on with her predictions. I am convinced that he had no idea about the SHADOW that she birthed to cap his brother.

Let's not forget that he saved the Night Watch and the northern lands, too. 

This guy gets dumped on and easily dismissed as a minor pretender to the Iron Throne. He may not be the one sitting on it at the end, but I wouldn't be surprised if A) he's one of the last ones standing; or B) he's still alive at the end. 

What say you all? Stannis hater? Stannis defender? Somewhere in the middle? What do you think will come of him? What are some of his redeeming/damning features and actions?

Discuss!


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## Dr Midnight (Jan 8, 2003)

I'm somewhere in the middle... he's an intolerable prick who's spitting on the gods just to advance his status in life, but he's not a bad man. 

His fool gives me the skin-crawlies. I say he's evil for letting Patchface hang around with his daughter.


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## King_Stannis (Jan 8, 2003)

Dr Midnight said:
			
		

> *I'm somewhere in the middle... he's an intolerable prick who's spitting on the gods just to advance his status in life, but he's not a bad man. ...*




See, I kind of disagree with that. He feels he was robbed of the throne that was rightfully his. Turns out, he's right. Ned Stark thought so, the laws of succession would seem to think so, too. 

After that, when he got hooked up with Melisandre, he then believes (for better or worse) that he HAS to win the throne in order for the world to survive. 

You kind of make it look like he has all of this personal ambition, like his brother Renly did, but I don't see it. I see a man who follows the letter of the law. When that gets torn up, he follows the red witch - who has never been wrong to him. He wants the throne not because he craves power, but because A) It rightfully belongs to him; and B) He must have it to save Westeros.

Those are two pretty strong reasons, Doc.


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## Sagan Darkside (Jan 8, 2003)

I think he is the best example of LN in the book, but with slight evil tendencies. His punishment of men who save his life is pretty harsh. I look forward to seeing where he goes in the future books, the end of the last one left him at a surprising situation.

SD


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## loxmyth (Jan 8, 2003)

I come in on the side of those who despise Stannis.

I think it's because, as Sagan points out, that he is more concerned with law than compassion.  When Doc Midnight says he spits on the gods to advance his status, he's correct.  He converted away from the seven only because he thought it might be pragmatic to do so.

I think the part that bothers me the most is that it _is_ a personal thing for him, though he says it's just the law.  We see him spend too much time whining about the crown which is rightly his before we see him actually doing something about it.

The most telling point is that Stannis _knew_ of Cersei's infidelity, and instead of going forward with his claims, he disappears back to Dragonstone, leaving Ned Stark high and dry.  Maybe if he hadn't been complaining so much about his brother loving Stark more than him, he might have had the power to stop this thing before it even started.

To me, it's maddening for him to declare that he's the rightful heir after the fact, and then hate every other guy on the block for also claiming their own kingdoms.  A human and reasonable reaction, yes.  Endearing, no.


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## Jeremy (Jan 8, 2003)

I approve of Stannis.  He's got this terrible weight on him and he's always played with a losing hand.  And he's getting sucked dry by a sorceress who's gonna ditch him when she realizes she's backing the wrong guy.

He's always trying to do the greatest good for the greatest number of people.  And I personally think he's a lot better equipped to handle the cleansing of the corruption of Westeros then any of the other potential kings.

His would be a short, but profitable reign.  Short because he is too inflexible to survive for long though his hardness would allow him to root out some serious problems with some scheming bastichs before he was offed.

The thing that confirmed his character for me, besides finding out how much Littlefinger had been behind, was that he DID answer the call of the North, for the reason I believe of duty.

He feels the world is going to be over run by darkness as his sorceress keeps telling him, and that he's gotta do everything he can to stop it, including taking the iron throne by force, forcing people to work together, and doing whatever else it takes.

That's a hard, sad way to live, but I like him for it.

I think because he's been set up as direct opposite of Tyrion so much, that the great vocal majority of people despise him because they have been manipulated into despising him.  But that's just my opinion.


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## King_Stannis (Jan 8, 2003)

loxmyth said:
			
		

> *I come in on the side of those who despise Stannis.
> 
> I think it's because, as Sagan points out, that he is more concerned with law than compassion.  When Doc Midnight says he spits on the gods to advance his status, he's correct.  He converted away from the seven only because he thought it might be pragmatic to do so.
> 
> ...




Stannis converted from the 7 Gods because Melisandre convinced him he is Azar-???? reborn. Again, in his view, she’s never been wrong.

I disagree that it’s a “personal” thing with him. You say he spends too much time whining, but he’s a cautious man – not likely to make a reckless charge in. He is being deliberate, which I think you are construing as whining. He may whine a little, but if you are going to whine about something, being screwed out of your kingship is right up there. 

Stannis knew of Cersei’s infidelity all right. And he knew if he presented it, he would have probably been executed or laughed out of the kingdom. He had no idea, to my recollection, at the time he left, that anyone other than Jon Arryn had also figured it out.

Again, the throne IS his by law. People just want to say “Oh, that Stannis, he’s just got a stick in his butt about laws, doesn’t he? He should just stand aside….”. The thing to ask yourself is, are there going to be laws of succession or aren’t there? By casually dismissing them you invite bloodshed EVERY time a ruler perishes. Stannis is the rightful ruler of Westeros end-of-story. 

What’s really galling are the people who just love Jaime Lannister after book 3, and can’t say enough good about him. Stannis was going to sacrifice his nephew in order to SAVE THE WORLD, and even then he resisted and resisted because it was something he did not want to do. Jamie Lannister tries to kill a 7 year-old kid in one of the worst ways possible to keep an incestuous affair with his sister from being discovered. He almost murdered a 7 year-old boy so he could keep poking his own sister! 

Yeah, Stannis is the real monster.


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## Sagan Darkside (Jan 8, 2003)

King_Stannis said:
			
		

> *
> What’s really galling are the people who just love Jaime Lannister after book 3, and can’t say enough good about him.  *




I can't agree enough about that- I find it sickening people find him a sympathetic character. (Reminds me why I don't like talking books with other people..)

His misfortunes are well deserved.

I am afraid to see the reaction when his sister becomes a p.o.v. character in the next book. ugh.

SD


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## Jeremy (Jan 8, 2003)

BTW, thanks for the link to that quiz.  That was fun.


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## loxmyth (Jan 8, 2003)

Hey don't get me wrong, I agree that the whole Jaime thing is annoying.  I really despise him too.  I just think Martin has made Jaime a lot more sympathetic than Stannis.  I'm sure Jeremy's right, that Martin wants us to dislike Stannis and that may be partially why.

I won't go into the whining too much because that is just the impression I get of him.



> Stannis knew of Cersei’s infidelity all right. And he knew if he presented it, he would have probably been executed or laughed out of the kingdom. He had no idea, to my recollection, at the time he left, that anyone other than Jon Arryn had also figured it out




But he should have known that Ned would have backed him.  Both Ned and Stannis are very lawful people... the difference was that Ned was tempered with compassion.  But he had no problem hacking off the head of a deserter once he decided that was what needed doing.  I truly believe Ned would have backed Stannis.  The fact that Stannis was bitter that Robert liked Ned over him really colours his responses to me.

I haven't read the books in a while either, so I grant that my recollections may be hazy (I intend to remedy that!).  But I'm pretty sure that Stannis dragged his feet on is whole claim for the throne.  In this time, Ned is killed, word gets back to the North so that Robb can be crowned, and so on.



> Again, the throne IS his by law. People just want to say “Oh, that Stannis, he’s just got a stick in his butt about laws, doesn’t he? He should just stand aside….”. The thing to ask yourself is, are there going to be laws of succession or aren’t there? By casually dismissing them you invite bloodshed EVERY time a ruler perishes. Stannis is the rightful ruler of Westeros end-of-story.




Well technically, Dany is.  But I understand your point.  But really, should he have been surprised at the response he received to his claim?  This is after Ned and all his people at court are dead, so Stannis is still the only one who knows that Jeoffrey is not the rightful heir!  Why should his declaration now, after the fact move anyone more than it did before?

Of course, this is the bind he's in.  He knows he's the rightful heir, but nobody else does, and his comments seem self-serving at best to the majority of bystanders.  The problem is that he doesn't appreciate the irony of it.  He states that Robb is one of the Kings that he'll assassinate, just because he's crowned himself king in the North.  Why couldn't he look at it from Robb's point of view?  That Jeoffery Baratheon, the rightful king, is an evil sadistic bastard that wrongfully had Robb's father killed, and now his scheming uncle has come out of nowhere with allegations that he's really the king!



> Stannis converted from the 7 Gods because Melisandre convinced him he is Azar-???? reborn. Again, in his view, she’s never been wron




Stannis himself basically says, "You use a tool as long as it's useful.  The seven are no longer as useful as the Red God."  And this wouldn't really be much of a problem if he didn't force his men to all convert or die.

I'm fairly sure Stannis knows he's not a reincarnation of this Azar guy.  He needs to fake the fire on his sword.  Heck, even Beric Dondarrion the lightning lord knows that trick!  But it serves his purposes to pretend he is.  He's basically a ends justifies the means type.

Again, don't misunderstand me.  I guess saying that I despise him is a little strong; there is very little about most of the characters in the series that I like or does not frustrate me.  But I see him as far from the noble character you see him as.


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## King_Stannis (Jan 8, 2003)

Jeremy said:
			
		

> *
> He's always trying to do the greatest good for the greatest number of people.  And I personally think he's a lot better equipped to handle the cleansing of the corruption of Westeros then any of the other potential kings.
> 
> His would be a short, but profitable reign.  Short because he is too inflexible to survive for long though his hardness would allow him to root out some serious problems with some scheming bastichs before he was offed.
> ...




I think all of that is pretty much spot-on. I feel that deep down he is trying to do the most good for the most people, too. And you're probably right about his reign being a short but profitable one. I never said Stannis would be a great king, but he at least deserves the chance.


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## King_Stannis (Jan 8, 2003)

loxmyth said:
			
		

> But he should have known that Ned would have backed him.  Both Ned and Stannis are very lawful people... the difference was that Ned was tempered with compassion.  But he had no problem hacking off the head of a deserter once he decided that was what needed doing.  I truly believe Ned would have backed Stannis.  The fact that Stannis was bitter that Robert liked Ned over him really colours his responses to me.
> 
> .....Again, don't misunderstand me.  I guess saying that I despise him is a little strong; there is very little about most of the characters in the series that I like or does not frustrate me.  But I see him as far from the noble character you see him as.




Fair enough, and thanks for participating and clarifying, loxmyth. 

I'll say this about the one point - Stannis really didn't know Ned Stark. It's easy for us to say in hindsight that he would have supported Stannis because we know he DID support Stannis after finding it out. But there was no way for Stannis to know, and what reason would he have to trust Ned - his brother's best friend.

As for Stannis being bitter about his brother liking Stark better, that is a window to his humanity. Lots of people (not saying you) want to think he lives ONLY for laws and nothing more. But he is genuinely hurt by Robert's affection for Ned, just as he was genuinely hurt his other brother would attempt to jump his rightful claim to the throne.

For some enlightenment, pick up "Clash of Kings" again, and read the part after Renly is done-in by the Shadow. There is a scene after, when Stannis is riding and asking the Onion Knight his opinions. At the beginning of that scene he starts telling Davos about how, only a day before when they rode out to meet each other, his brother reached into his coat for a peach. Stannis thought it was a weapon and drew his own, but his brother just laughed and offered him a bite of the peach (symbolic?). Stannis said something to the effect "Only my brother could vex me with a piece of fruit. But I loved him, Davos, despite his treason. And I'll go to my grave thinking of that peach".

It's one of the most well written parts of the series that many people simply ignore due to their blind hatred of Stannis. Yet it sheds amazing light on a character that is constantly being thrown curveballs by destiny. You get the impression that if things had worked out from the start, he might have been a different person and maybe, just maybe, a decent king.

Don't discount too, The Onion Knight. You will agree he is almost universally respected by readers of the series. He LOVES Stannis, despite having  a few digits whacked off by him. HE must see something in Stannis, too - not just blind loyalty, either. He's shown all along that he can speak his mind in front of Stannis.


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## loxmyth (Jan 8, 2003)

> Fair enough, and thanks for participating and clarifying, loxmyth.




No problem.  Some days I lurk, and some days I have a big mouth.   (Heh, I guess this is what I get for taking the position I have on a thread started by a guy named 'King_Stannis')



> I'll say this about the one point - Stannis really didn't know Ned Stark. It's easy for us to say in hindsight that he would have supported Stannis because we know he DID support Stannis after finding it out. But there was no way for Stannis to know, and what reason would he have to trust Ned - his brother's best friend.




I think that everyone is at least aware of the character of the other important political figures.  Everyone seemed to know that Stannis was extremely legalistic for example... in fact, that would be the only way I could see anyone taking his claim to the throne seriously.

Likewise, even if Stannis didn't really know the guy who grew up with his older brother very well, he should have known about Ned's reputation as a goody two shoes.  Jaime and Cersei certainly knew it, and they used it against him.  Let's face it,  what we see of Ned shows that he's honourable and very lawful... possibly Lawful Stupid, even.  No one else in the series comes close to trying to do "the right thing" from a modern viewpoint as he does.  I think this would be something that would make him quite reknown as a leader.

I think Stannis was as aware of Ned's ethics as people are aware that (IIRC) Arthur Dayne, the Sword of Morning, was one of the greatest swordsmen in Westeros.  I think you touch on the real reason he keeps quiet below.



> As for Stannis being bitter about his brother liking Stark better, that is a window to his humanity. Lots of people (not saying you) want to think he lives ONLY for laws and nothing more. But he is genuinely hurt by Robert's affection for Ned, just as he was genuinely hurt his other brother would attempt to jump his rightful claim to the throne.




And I agree with this assessment, and I do recall vaguely the peach scene.  It _is_ Stannis' most sympathetic portrayal in my mind.  But I think he's just too embittered to always think clearly.  That, and his penchant for careful, deliberate action (as you point out) was possibly his undoing.  Or at least most of the fighting could have been nipped in the bud early.



> Don't discount too, The Onion Knight. You will agree he is almost universally respected by readers of the series. He LOVES Stannis, despite having a few digits whacked off by him. HE must see something in Stannis, too - not just blind loyalty, either. He's shown all along that he can speak his mind in front of Stannis.




Point.  This I can agree with.  But I still think Stannis is far from perfect.  There may be kernels of a good man there, but he's some questionable things that just don't sit well with me.


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## Zenon (Jan 8, 2003)

King_Stannis said:
			
		

> *What’s really galling are the people who just love Jaime Lannister after book 3, and can’t say enough good about him. Stannis was going to sacrifice his nephew in order to SAVE THE WORLD, and even then he resisted and resisted because it was something he did not want to do. Jamie Lannister tries to kill a 7 year-old kid in one of the worst ways possible to keep an incestuous affair with his sister from being discovered. He almost murdered a 7 year-old boy so he could keep poking his own sister!
> 
> Yeah, Stannis is the real monster. *




I don't normally enter book discussions, but I'll try to inject my thoughts into this one.

First, I don't hate Stannis. I pity him. Stannis is too hard, too obsessed with justice. From the scene with the peach you see he really wants to be liked, but just doesn't know how to have people like and respect him instead of fear him. The Red Witch plays him like a fiddle with these feelings: "Renly's liked better than you, you should be king. Your nephews blood is needed for you to save the world" and Stannis believes her! I just shake my head and wish he'd wise up. I did like his coming to the Wall, it was the right thing to do.

As for liking Jamie - through the first two books, no I didn't care for him then. Especially throwing Bran off the tower. However, since losing him hand, Jamie has had to re-evaluate himself by taking a long look at who he is and what he's done. I believe he says to himself once "Is that all I was? A sword hand?" or something similar. He begins to push Cersci away after he actually realizes she's just using him same as she always has. He sits down and for the first time, tries to BE the Commander of the Kingsguard. He's trying to change and to grow. Given time, who knows what he can make out of himself? The part when Jamie sat down with the Book of the Kingsguard and actually started updating it really sticks in my mind as the turning point for me on my feeling towards the character, where he started to actaully take up the resposibilities he has had all along and do something with them instead of just play around. I like watching a character grow and change like that, especially from someone who you initially hate into someone who you're almost cheering for to change into something good.

I don't know if I could see Stannis being able to change, he's too narrow of vision. If Stannis tried to change I think he would not be able to. To change he would have to admit there was a flaw in him that needed to be changed, and Stannis can't accept that in others, let alone within himself.

Am I making any sense here? It's kind of hard for me to explain.


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## Sagan Darkside (Jan 8, 2003)

Zenon said:
			
		

> *
> He begins to push Cersci away after he actually realizes she's just using him same as she always has. *




IIRC- She pushes him away, doesn't she? 



> He sits down and for the first time, tries to BE the Commander of the Kingsguard.




Well another IIRC, he wasn't the commander before. He was made so when he finally got back to his family.



> I like watching a character grow and change like that, especially from someone who you initially hate into someone who you're almost cheering for to change into something good.




I will cheer when he is hanging from a tree. 

SD


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## King_Stannis (Jan 8, 2003)

Zenon said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I don't normally enter book discussions, but I'll try to inject my thoughts into this one.
> 
> First, I don't hate Stannis. I pity him. Stannis is too hard, too obsessed with justice. From the scene with the peach you see he really wants to be liked, but just doesn't know how to have people like and respect him instead of fear him. The Red Witch plays him like a fiddle with these feelings: "Renly's liked better than you, you should be king. Your nephews blood is needed for you to save the world" and Stannis believes her! I just shake my head and wish he'd wise up. I did like his coming to the Wall, it was the right thing to do. *




Partially right about him not knowing how to make people respect and love him. The scene with the peach was a private conversation with really his only true friend. The problem is, how can he make people respect and love him if he isn't afforded his rightful chance to? Many times leaders need to be in power a little bit before they can shine. Quite frankly, with all of the corruption and problems in Westeros, I'm starting to wonder if Stannis would not become the savior of the land.

Forgive me for saying this, but how do you know what Melisandre's motivation is? There seems to be alot of people who have already convicted her as a power hungry witch who's duping Stannis for personal gain. If this series has taught anything, is it not that we should hold all bets? Martin has a way of surprising you, not in the most pleasant of ways. Wouldn't that be galling to the people who revile Stannis and Mel - if there was truth in their belief.






> * As for liking Jamie - through the first two books, no I didn't care for him then. Especially throwing Bran off the tower. However, since losing him hand, Jamie has had to re-evaluate himself by taking a long look at who he is and what he's done. I believe he says to himself once "Is that all I was? A sword hand?" or something similar. He begins to push Cersci away after he actually realizes she's just using him same as she always has. He sits down and for the first time, tries to BE the Commander of the Kingsguard. He's trying to change and to grow. Given time, who knows what he can make out of himself? The part when Jamie sat down with the Book of the Kingsguard and actually started updating it really sticks in my mind as the turning point for me on my feeling towards the character, where he started to actaully take up the resposibilities he has had all along and do something with them instead of just play around. I like watching a character grow and change like that, especially from someone who you initially hate into someone who you're almost cheering for to change into something goood.
> 
> I don't know if I could see Stannis being able to change, he's too narrow of vision. If Stannis tried to change I think he would not be able to. To change he would have to admit there was a flaw in him that needed to be changed, and Stannis can't accept that in others, let alone within himself.
> 
> Am I making any sense here? It's kind of hard for me to explain. *




As for Jaime Lannister, he's a monster. Yeah, he's starting to change his ways - a little - but updating the history of the Kingsguard is not exactly penance for trying to murder a 7 year old kid (just so you can keep porking your twin sister). Sorry, Jaime Lannister has A LOT of good deed to do before you can say he's morally superior than Stannis.

But again, thank you for your opinions. I like this discussion.


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## KnowTheToe (Jan 8, 2003)

King_Stannis said:
			
		

> *I have visited the "Ring of Ice and Fire" boards, dedicated to Martin's series,  *




Have a link?


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## Zenon (Jan 8, 2003)

King_Stannis said:
			
		

> *Forgive me for saying this, but how do you know what Melisandre's motivation is? There seems to be alot of people who have already convicted her as a power hungry witch who's duping Stannis for personal gain. If this series has taught anything, is it not that we should hold all bets? Martin has a way of surprising you, not in the most pleasant of ways. Wouldn't that be galling to the people who revile Stannis and Mel - if there was truth in their belief.*




Well, that whole birthing an evil shadow from Stannis to go kill Renly thing kind of put me off to her 

There's also the thing with hyping Stannis up as the return of Azer-ali(?) with his flamming sword. But doesn't the one blind maester make a comment to someone that the sword produces no heat? The scabbard doesn't burn? It just seems like a normal sword?( The funny thing with the light is if you stare into it too long you go blind....)

The above with the flamming sword also makes me think Mel is putting one over on Stannis. But, like you say GRRM loves his surprises, and fire sure does melt some ice (or Others). We'll have to see.



			
				King_Stannis said:
			
		

> *As for Jaime Lannister, he's a monster. Yeah, he's starting to change his ways - a little - but updating the history of the Kingsguard is not exactly penance for trying to murder a 7 year old kid (just so you can keep porking your twin sister). Sorry, Jaime Lannister has A LOT of good deed to do before you can say he's morally superior than Stannis.
> 
> But again, thank you for your opinions. I like this discussion.  *




I didn't say it made up for anything, just that it was the part when I, as the reader, started to have a change of heart about Jamie. He was reading the lists of all these great knights and their deeds, and then looked at himself and his current knights and I think it hit him that they were nothing like the old Kingsguard. He sure does have a whole lot to do to make up for what we've seen, but it looks as though he's on the right path to try to make up for it. Again, we'll have to see...

Morality is a shaky thing to bring to anyone in ASoI&F. I never claimed Jamie was any better than Stannis, just that he seemed more inclinded to change (possibly for the better).

Man, I'm dyin' 'till the next book (and I'll have to get hold of it first before my wife does so I don't have to wait for her to finish it). Come on, April!


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## King_Stannis (Jan 8, 2003)

*Re: Re: (ASoI&F - spoilers) Why the hatred for Stannis Baratheon?*



			
				KnowTheToe said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Have a link? *




http://pub26.ezboard.com/basoiaf

There you go.


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## KnowTheToe (Jan 8, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: (ASoI&F - spoilers) Why the hatred for Stannis Baratheon?*



			
				King_Stannis said:
			
		

> *
> 
> http://pub26.ezboard.com/basoiaf
> 
> There you go.  *




Thank you


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