# Martial Study Feat



## Prophet2b (Aug 25, 2007)

I have a question concerning _Book of Nine Swords_.  I was creating a character for our campaign (I'm DM), and I was thinking it would be cool to give him a maneuver from Bo9S.  Since he's not a martial fighter, I looked up the feat _Martial Study_ and then started looking for a maneuver.

Then it hit me...  That feat only grants access to one maneuver.  In other words, in essence, what you are doing is taking a maneuver as a feat.

Now, either one of two things is happening here:

1) This means that each maneuver is on par with an actual feat.
2) This means that the _Martial Study_ feat is very underpowered.

I suspect it's number 2 (considering for non-martial classes the initiator level is only 1/2 the class level *and* he doesn't get to swap it out later for a more powerful maneuver) - but I was wondering what others thought?  It just struck me as odd...


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## JoelF (Aug 25, 2007)

I don't think the feat is underpowered.  Sure it only lets you pick one maneuver, but that feat lets you get a class ability for another class without taking a level in it.  Think of it as the equivilent of a feat which let a non-spellcaster to take a 1st level spell usable once *per encounter* without any levels in cleric, wizard, etc.  If such a feat existed, it would be huge for lots of classes, especially if you pick your spell well.  For a fighter, you could pick true strike and have a full power attack with a great chance of hitting once per encounter.  For a monk, you could use the shield spell for a +4 to AC each encounter, for a rogue off on his own scouting, he could cure light wounds, etc.  All of this without giving up advancement in their primary class or prestige class....I think that makes the feat pretty good.


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## blargney the second (Aug 25, 2007)

Like JoelF said, it's a great feat if you choose wisely.  Especially since you then qualify for Martial Stance, which is where the real goodness comes into play.
-blarg


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## Victim (Aug 25, 2007)

Martial Study also turns a non class skill into a class skill.


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## blargney the second (Aug 25, 2007)

Right, I always forget about that part because we just play all skills as class skills anyways.


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## Arkhandus (Aug 25, 2007)

JoelF said:
			
		

> I don't think the feat is underpowered.  Sure it only lets you pick one maneuver, but that feat lets you get a class ability for another class without taking a level in it.  Think of it as the equivilent of a feat which let a non-spellcaster to take a 1st level spell usable once *per encounter* without any levels in cleric, wizard, etc.  If such a feat existed, it would be huge for lots of classes, especially if you pick your spell well.  For a fighter, you could pick true strike and have a full power attack with a great chance of hitting once per encounter.  For a monk, you could use the shield spell for a +4 to AC each encounter, for a rogue off on his own scouting, he could cure light wounds, etc.  All of this without giving up advancement in their primary class or prestige class....I think that makes the feat pretty good.




Eh, Martial Study isn't so helpful as that though.  Getting Mage Armor or Shield once per encounter would be a lot more helpful to a Monk than getting Stance of Clarity or Stone Bones.  True Strike would be a lot more useful to someone than Shadow Blade Technique or Sapphire Nightmare Blade.

Though I guess Martial Spirit would be a worthwhile stance to take after getting Martial Study to qualify for Martial Stance.  Martial Study itself?  Not so much.  Maneuvers are often somewhat weaker than a spell of equivalent level.

IMHO, Martial Study is a bit underpowered, though the extra class skill from it is kind of nice.  It would be better if it counted your character level as your initiator level for the feat.  Then it would be more worthwhile, but still a bit weak sometimes.  Worth taking though at that point.


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## Cephid (Aug 26, 2007)

Some of the feats in book of nine swords seem to be very overpowered, as if the book is not meant to used with other books.

Like snap kick an extra attack for 1 feat. Can even be used as part of a charge or standard action. That is just silly.

And one feat that lets a monk count as 4 levels higher for unarmed dammage. With a monks belt, that means a 12th level monk is doing 2d10 per hit going up to 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 9d8 with size.

Do these seem overpowered to anyone else?
or what am I missing?


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## Zurai (Aug 26, 2007)

Cephid said:
			
		

> Some of the feats in book of nine swords seem to be very overpowered, as if the book is not meant to used with other books.
> 
> Like snap kick an extra attack for 1 feat. Can even be used as part of a charge or standard action. That is just silly.
> 
> ...




Since monks in general are extremely weak, I don't see anything wrong with those feats.

Now if you'd mentioned Stormguard Warrior...


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## Cephid (Aug 26, 2007)

Zurai said:
			
		

> Since monks in general are extremely weak, I don't see anything wrong with those feats.QUOTE]
> 
> It would that the monk in my group would be doing about 400 dammage per round + AoO (many) + poison damage on every hit + 2 attacks from his dancing spiked chain. He uses hustle and boots of haste to run upto 120' then full attack.
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## nobodez (Aug 26, 2007)

Cephid said:
			
		

> Zurai said:
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## Cephid (Aug 26, 2007)

nobodez said:
			
		

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## Kmart Kommando (Aug 26, 2007)

Cephid said:
			
		

> nobodez said:
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## sukael (Aug 26, 2007)

I could see Martial Study (Sapphire Nightmare Blade) as extremely valuable for a ninja, rogue, or other sneak attacker or sudden striker.

(Get an opponent flat-footed, more-or-less guaranteed, 1/encounter...)


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## blargney the second (Aug 26, 2007)

nobodez said:
			
		

> Polymorphed into a cave troll, then double expansion.



If he's using this to get to gargantuan size, you should know that effects that increase size don't stack.  The polymorph increases size to Large and the augmented expansion increases to Huge at best, assuming he starts as a Medium creature.  And as Kmart Kommando said, that's assuming he actually can manifest the hugifying expansion!

Bo9S isn't the problem here...
-blarg


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## Arkhandus (Aug 26, 2007)

Cephid said:
			
		

> Like snap kick an extra attack for 1 feat. Can even be used as part of a charge or standard action. That is just silly.
> 
> And one feat that lets a monk count as 4 levels higher for unarmed dammage. With a monks belt, that means a 12th level monk is doing 2d10 per hit going up to 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 9d8 with size.




Snap kick is an off-hand unarmed strike, with a penalty to hit.  Unless you're a mid or high level Monk, it won't do much good.  You need to use a melee weapon attack first.  You get a -2 penalty on attacks similarly to a low-level monk using flurry of blows.  Again: it's not much good unless you're a monk, and even then it's limited.  Half Str bonus to damage with the kick, and -2 to hit with all attacks that round, and the Monk's already-mediocre attack bonus and Multiple Ability Dependency.....

Joe Fighter 6 does 1d3+2 nonlethal damage in exchange for -2 on all attack rolls for the round....woop dee doo.  Joe Monk 9 does 1d10+1 normal damage in exchange for the same attack penalty, and is lucky if he even hits at all....woop dee doo.  The feat requires +6 BAB and Improved Unarmed Strike, so that's the earliest either guy could take it.  Think of it as a sort of alternative to TWF.  It could be used with TWF, of course, but then you'd have an even worse chance of hitting anything at all (and if you're a monk, you're better off not even trying to use both at once).

I really, really don't think Snap Kick is any problem.


Superior Unarmed Strike is a good feat.  It allows non-Monks to suck less at grappling and unarmed combat when they get disarmed.  And for Monks, it boosts their piddly damage.

At 6th-level (the earliest they're likely to get it, with its prereqs) the Monk will be dealing 1d10 damage instead of 1d8, so a bastard-sword-equivalent instead of a longsword-equivalent.  At 8th-11th level it'd boost their unarmed damage to equal a greatsword, but it's *only an average increase of +1 damage* from where it would normally be.  Later it improves to 2d8 a bit sooner than normal, and then later it improves to 2d10 (that's as high as Monk damage goes).

So eventually it is worth +2 damage on average.  Kind of the Monkish equivalent of weapon specialization but not quite.  The Monk doesn't get weapon enhancements for his unarmed strikes.  He doesn't get +5 or flaming burst or other stuff to boost his damage and accuracy; the Monk doesn't really get access to anything for greater accuracy or damage, except for Weapon Focus' piddly +1 to-hit and, in ToB, Superior Unarmed Strike's 1 or 2 points of extra damage on average.


I don't know where you get those higher damage values, since a Monk's Belt also won't exceed the normal limit of a 20th-level Monk's damage (2d10 if Medium, etc.).  If you're playing a Large or bigger race, then you've already got a level adjustment and/or several racial hit dice holding you back.

If someone casts Enlarge Person on you, well, that's easy enough for an enemy to dispel, and it's really not a problem with the monk (an Enlarged fighter does 3d6 with a greatsword, and an Enlarged goliath can do 4d6 with a greatsword, and a half-giant psychic warrior can Expansion themselves up to Huge to do 6d6 with a greatsword....).  It's really a problem with Enlarge Person/Expansion in 3.5E more than anything else.

The Monk's Belt might be something of a problem, but I dunno.  It's certainly not hard to destroy if the DM really felt it was causing a problem with the character (Disintegrate anyone?).


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## Arkhandus (Aug 26, 2007)

blargney the second said:
			
		

> If he's using this to get to gargantuan size, you should know that effects that increase size don't stack.  The polymorph increases size to Large and the augmented expansion increases to Huge at best, assuming he starts as a Medium creature.  And as Kmart Kommando said, that's assuming he actually can manifest the hugifying expansion!
> 
> Bo9S isn't the problem here...
> -blarg




Yep yep, agreed on each point.  The guy can't combine all those size increases, can't even manifest Expansion at the necessary number of power points (and will have very scarce PP in his reserve anyway), and his whole problem is the loads of magical buffing!  At that level, there is NO REASON an enemy mage wouldn't be using Dispel Magic or Greater Dispelling or a Dispelling Screen, which would knock the cheeseball off his magic pedestal.

And if the enemy mage has an Arcane Sight active (perhaps Permanencied) he'll see that guy's aura lit up like a Christmas tree (not that he wouldn't already want to try and remove any possible buffs on the nasty cave troll approaching his guards).


Martial Study _would_ help a Ninja or Rogue, certainly, but it would only be 1 time per encounter that they would get to use their Sudden Strike or Sneak Attack for free.  Then they'd have to try and find opportunities to use SS/SA normally.  And that's a rather narrow selection of classes that would get a sufficient benefit from the feat as it already is.


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## Kmart Kommando (Aug 27, 2007)

the best thing about Martial Study is that it's a prerequisite for Martial Stance, and that's where the good stuff comes in for non-martial adepts.  +2d6 sneak attack, threatened targets considered flanked, +5ft reach on your turn,  immunity to fire, etc.  loads of good stuff.  Nothing better than what any buffing spell couldn't give you, and it's up as long as you want it.


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## avr (Aug 27, 2007)

Martial Study isn't too bad, though getting really good use out of it requires investing at least one more feat for Martial Stance as others have noted. For non-martial adept classes a stance is a total freebie which doesn't conflict with any of their class features.

The other use for it is for qualifying for prestige classes in the Bo9S while taking only 1 or even no levels in initiating classes. It's a bit of a hack in that regard.


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## Wolfspider (Aug 27, 2007)

*groan*

Not another character who polymorphs into a blasted troll....

Is he invisible and flying too?


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## Cephid (Aug 27, 2007)

Ok, thats interesting.
A few issues here...
I'll have to look into them and sort them out with my friend.

1) are you sure that Psy War and Warmind levels don't stack to determine manifester level? (he's just taken warmind 1, so if you're right, he'll take PsyWar 3 instead to get double expansion)

2) Multiple effects that increase size don't stack, but polymorph changes him into a entirely new form. Then he gets a size increase effect. I don't see any reason why this would not increase his size.

3) "You need to use a melee weapon attack first" are you sure? So it can't be added to a flurry of blows?

I agree with what you are saying about dispell etc. (I've seen it hapen to him), but until that happens, he still deals a TON of dammage. 

With a monks belt and the feat a monk can do 2d10 at 12th level. with just 2 size increases (levels in the psionic monk PrC) that damage reaches 6d8. (if he was a Goliath it would be 9d8).


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## sukael (Aug 27, 2007)

Cephid said:
			
		

> 1) are you sure that Psy War and Warmind levels don't stack to determine manifester level? (he's just taken warmind 1, so if you're right, he'll take PsyWar 3 instead to get double expansion)




Treat it like having levels in two spellcasting classes... wizard 1/sorcerer 1 doesn't have a caster level of 2, and psion 1/wilder 1 doesn't have a manifester level of 2.

That character only has a manifester level of 2 in Psychic Warrior (or 3)... not nearly enough to burn all 7 PPs needed to do a two-size-category Expansion, since you can only spend up to (your manifester level) PPs on a power at a time.



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> The variables of a power’s effect often depend on its manifester level, which is *equal to your psionic class level*. A power that can be augmented for additional effect is also limited by your manifester level (*you can’t spend more power points on a power than your manifester level*).


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## Zurai (Aug 27, 2007)

Cephid said:
			
		

> with just 2 size increases (levels in the psionic monk PrC) that damage reaches 6d8. (if he was a Goliath it would be 9d8).




Incorrect. Goliaths are medium creatures. Powerful Build lets them wield larger weapons than their size would usually allow, but it does not change their natural weapons, like Unarmed Strike. They use the medium Unarmed Strike damage table, and if they were to grow two size categories they would use the huge US damage table, not the gargantuan one.

EDIT: Also, the difference in base weapon damage is almost irrelevant. You mentioned him being polymorphed into a Cave Troll, which would put his strength at a +9 bonus. The average of 6d8+9 = 33. The average damage of a Cave Troll with a medium-sized Greatsword (ie, a Fighter polymorphed into a Cave Troll) is 2d6+13 = 20. Assuming level 12 characters, the Fighter is going to have a +3 BAB advantage, which translates directly into +6 damage through Power Attack, bringing the difference to a measly 7 points of damage. Or, the fighter could just hit 15% more often for the price of that 6 damage.


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## Arkhandus (Aug 27, 2007)

Cephid said:
			
		

> 1) are you sure that Psy War and Warmind levels don't stack to determine manifester level? (he's just taken warmind 1, so if you're right, he'll take PsyWar 3 instead to get double expansion)



Yes.  War Minds get separate manifestation ability, unlike _some_ of the other psionic prestige classes.



> 2) Multiple effects that increase size don't stack, but polymorph changes him into a entirely new form. Then he gets a size increase effect. I don't see any reason why this would not increase his size.



There is no 'size-increasing effect' descriptor or subtype or anything.  Any special effect that increases the character's size, directly or not, is a size-increasing effect.



> 3) "You need to use a melee weapon attack first" are you sure? So it can't be added to a flurry of blows?



The feat specifically says that you must first attack with a melee weapon, and the wording seems to imply that you really do have to use a weapon, not an unarmed strike or natural weapon, before using the Snap Kick.  So a Monk, frex, would probably have to attack with kamas/nunchakus/etc. with their flurry of blows, instead of unarmed strikes, before using the Snap Kick.  I could be wrong on the interpretation of this one, but I think I have the right of it.



> I agree with what you are saying about dispell etc. (I've seen it hapen to him), but until that happens, he still deals a TON of dammage.



Again, most likely a problem with the polymorphing (and the fact that 3.5 Enlarge/Expansion is at least a little broken, if not very broken).



> With a monks belt and the feat a monk can do 2d10 at 12th level. with just 2 size increases (levels in the psionic monk PrC) that damage reaches 6d8. (if he was a Goliath it would be 9d8).



Goliaths and Half-Giants don't get increased unarmed damage or natural weapon damage.  Powerful Build only allows them to _wield weapons_ as though one size larger, it does not affect their damage otherwise.


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## Kmart Kommando (Aug 27, 2007)

Likely, he's going for the Sweeping Strike ability of the Warmind to double his already absurd damage output.  Absurd meaning totally illegal, in this case.
Even with a legal build, with any Wisdom score under 26 he can only do that trick once per day.  Or 18, if you count Practised Manifester as real levels for power point calculations.
That's once per day, for 7 rounds, costing a standard action at the beginning of combat.

He casts Expansion, NPC casts targeted dispel, and balance is restored.  Then player demands that the party rest so he can try it again.

Iron Heroes is looking more fun every day.


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## Cephid (Aug 27, 2007)

Ok well thanks.
I'm satisfied.  
Are you sure that "Any special effect that increases the character's size, directly or not, is a size-increasing effect."?

I'll have to pass on the news to him and help him sort his character out.
Thanks for your help.


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## Jhaelen (Aug 27, 2007)

I cannot help but notice that 99% of the cheese I see involves using polymorph (or one of its cousins). Has noone else taken the logical step and simply removed it from the game? I thought that was the whole point of the last official errata we got!

I know, that I removed it right away - luckily before polymorphing ever became a topic in my game. My druid player also happily switched to the PHB2 variant of wildshape.


To get back to the OP's question: I think the feat is fine for what it does. But I think it's often more efficient to simply take a level in one of the initiator classes than to invest heavily in martial study/stance.


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## Nail (Aug 27, 2007)

Jhaelen said:
			
		

> I cannot help but notice that 99% of the cheese I see involves using polymorph (or one of its cousins). Has noone else taken the logical step and simply removed it from the game? I thought that was the whole point of the last official errata we got!



Exactly.

Enlarge/Expansion is also a problem.

Back on topic: Why doesn't the OP just have his NPC take a level in Warblade?  This is *much* more effective than taking the feat Martial Study.


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## brehobit (Aug 27, 2007)

1) This means that each maneuver is on par with an actual feat.
2) This means that the _Martial Study_ feat is very underpowered.

#1.  The Bo9S classes are fairly overpowered IMO.

That said, most of the "good" strikes have prereqs, and even worse, the power of those strikes don't scale.  So while there are a few strike options that _are_ very powerful, there are a few that make sense _only if your DM doesn't allow the Bo9S classes_.  Otherwise why take one of these as a fighter bonus feat when you could just take a level in the appropriate class and get so very much more.

The fireball one (3rd level) has no prereqs and is a nice ability for a 10th level fighter.  At that level it's not game breaking, but it is handy in about half the fights you get into.  

Mark


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## cheshire_grin (Aug 27, 2007)

brehobit said:
			
		

> 1) This means that each maneuver is on par with an actual feat.
> 2) This means that the _Martial Study_ feat is very underpowered.
> 
> #1.  The Bo9S classes are fairly overpowered IMO.



Not really, because as you say:



> most of the "good" strikes have prereqs, and even worse, the power of those strikes don't scale.




By the time a warblade or swordsage is using the really dangerous things they're 13th level or so--at that level, that kind of damage is neither overpowered nor particularly rare (consider the kind of damage a Wiz13 or Druid13 can dish out).

Worse, stances don't scale either, and unlike maneuvers you can't replace them at higher levels.


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## Zurai (Aug 27, 2007)

cheshire_grin said:
			
		

> Worse, stances don't scale either, and unlike maneuvers you can't replace them at higher levels.




Most stances don't, but there are two that do: the one that adds your initiator level to charge damage and the one that grants you resistance/immunity to fire based on tumble ranks.

Point remains, though.


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## Shellman (Aug 27, 2007)

Cephid said:
			
		

> nobodez said:
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## Nifft (Aug 27, 2007)

cheshire_grin said:
			
		

> Worse, stances don't scale either, and unlike maneuvers you can't replace them at higher levels.



 Some stances scale implicitly, since they modify your attacks (or trigger off of your attacks).

Martial Stance (heal 2 hp per hit) obviously scales with the number of your attacks; similarly, Blood in the Water (+1 to attack and damage per crit) benefits both as you get better at making many attacks and as you get better at threatening & confirming crits.

Those are both 1st level Stances. 

Cheers, -- N


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## Nail (Aug 27, 2007)

Shellman said:
			
		

> I'd say that the BoNS is not the problem, its the cheese build this guy is using. Which by the way probably needs a good editing by the DM.



Are you talking about the "troll PC" from earlier?  I think we've established that the build breaks rules and is Off-Topic to this thread.

...and the book is actually: "Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords", which condences down to a not-much-shorter "ToB:Bo9S".   Sheesh.  Guys, next time agree on the title you use, rather than stringing two or more titles together!


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## brehobit (Aug 27, 2007)

cheshire_grin said:
			
		

> By the time a warblade or swordsage is using the really dangerous things they're 13th level or so--at that level, that kind of damage is neither overpowered nor particularly rare (consider the kind of damage a Wiz13 or Druid13 can dish out).



I'm pretty sure an area 6d6 attack is pretty dangerous at 5th level.  And +2d6 damage and ignore DR is pretty dangerous at 3rd level.

That said, my point is that taking these as feats is much less effective than just taking a level in one of the classes.  If your DM allows you to take these classes, you should seriously consider that option over taking the feat.  For a fighter, it's a clear win.

Mark


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## Arkhandus (Aug 27, 2007)

brehobit said:
			
		

> So while there are a few strike options that _are_ very powerful, there are a few that make sense _only if your DM doesn't allow the Bo9S classes_.



Naaah.

1) Because you don't want to delay access to higher level spells, but you'd really like a maneuver such as Action Before Thought or Mind Over Body or Shadow Jaunt
2) Because you don't want to delay access to Weapon Specialization or similar
3) Because you want to avoid multiclass XP penalties
4) Because you don't want to delay access to a particular prestige class
5) Because multiclassing out of Paladin is a Bad Thing but you wanted some special attacks to use beyond your occasional and boring Smite Evil
6) Because you don't want to delay access to some Wild Shape benefits or greater animal companions
7) Because multiclassing out of Monk is Sometimes a Bad Thing and yet you needed something, _anything_, to boost your pitiful damage/AC/attack bonus/whatever.

Swordsage is not overpowered.  Crusader and Warblade may be a little, but are primarily just more powerful _than the ever-sucky Fighter that has always sucked_.  There are some overpowered maneuvers that need tweaking, but the classes need little if any tweaking themselves for balance (only one or two minor things about the Crusader or Warblade might possibly deserve a bit of toning down).


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## EyeontheMountain (Aug 28, 2007)

The martial study can be an excellent feat for a fight. If only for a decent class skill alone. Or with a couple of feats, access to a couple of good skills that can aid him into getting into prestige classes, or because something more than just the tank. Even for the class skill, it can be a good feat.

As for maneuvers, it depends on when you take it. The first level maneuver are not that hot, though a few are nice, but when the fighter hits 10th level, he can pick up a 3rd level maneuver and now there are better ones out there. Granted, not a huge power boost, but it can give him some good options, and once per encounter is a lot of use from a feat. 

And once you add a stance, you get a serious power boost if you pick the right one, which is not hard to do.


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## cheshire_grin (Aug 28, 2007)

brehobit said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure an area 6d6 attack is pretty dangerous at 5th level.  And +2d6 damage and ignore DR is pretty dangerous at 3rd level.



Except any wizard can do very similar things at very similar levels. A 5th level wizard can do 5d6 with fireball, and that's about the least imaginative option. (And yeah, warblade maneuver recovery etc, but they get a really limited # of maneuvers readied, which makes them a lot less versatile than a wizard or sorcerer of the same level.)

I'm not arguing that they aren't _more powerful than a vanilla fighter_, just that they aren't _over_powered in general.


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## Nail (Aug 28, 2007)

EyeontheMountain said:
			
		

> As for maneuvers, it depends on when you take it.



Exactly. 

That 6th level Ftr could pick up 2nd level manuevers, for example.  Then the Ftr 6 could have (for example):

Emerald Razor: One attack as a touch attack. (EDIT: Missing prereq.)
Wall of Blades: Replace AC with Attack roll
Mountain Hammer: ignore DR and do +2d6 damage
Burning Brand: Add 5 foot reach and fire damage


...etc.

None of those are bad choices for a feat, IMO!  And several scale well with level (like Wall of Blades!)




Still, it's usually always better to just take a level of Warblade (or Swordsage).  YMMV.


BTW, aren't martial stances also martial manuevers?  Couldn't you take a stance with the Martial Study feat?


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## cheshire_grin (Aug 28, 2007)

Nail said:
			
		

> BTW, aren't martial stances also martial manuevers?  Couldn't you take a stance with the Martial Study feat?



They count as stances for the purposes of prereqs (i.e. if you have one IH maneuver and one IH stance, you are counted as having the prereqs for any maneuver that specifies "two IH maneuvers"), but you can't take stances using Martial Study--you have to take the Martial Stance feat instead, which requires that you know at least one maneuver from that school as a prereq.


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## Arkhandus (Aug 28, 2007)

Nope.  The introduction says stances are special abilities, not maneuvers but similar.  The Blade Magic chapter also declares that stances are not maneuvers.  Stances _only_ count as maneuvers for purposes of meeting the prerequisites to learn a new maneuver.  Not for any other purposes, not even for any other prerequisites.


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## blargney the second (Aug 28, 2007)

Emerald Razor has a prereq of 1 Diamond Mind maneuver.  The rest of those were great choices, Nail.

Btw, I use this page to figure out prereqs for Bo9S stuff.  It's super handy.
-blarg


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## Nail (Aug 29, 2007)

Good catch, BtS!

Say....what web page is that?  I keeps trying to download something to my computer, and "me-no-like unknown files!"


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## sukael (Aug 29, 2007)

Nail said:
			
		

> Say....what web page is that?  I keeps trying to download something to my computer, and "me-no-like unknown files!"




It's an XUL page- the XML-based files Firefox (and other Mozilla applications) use to define their interfaces. It'll resolve perfectly well if opened in Firefox, but other browsers will have no idea what to do with it.


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## Nail (Aug 29, 2007)

Shucks.

Thanks for the help, sukael.


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## blargney the second (Aug 29, 2007)

Huh... I had no idea that was browser-specific.  Sorry IE guys!


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## Nail (Aug 29, 2007)

Yeah...(sigh)

....'cause any kind of utility that makes manuever-choosing easier would be *much* appreciated.


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## Elethiomel (Aug 29, 2007)

Nail said:
			
		

> Yeah...(sigh)
> 
> ....'cause any kind of utility that makes manuever-choosing easier would be *much* appreciated.




Having just used it to choose maneuvers for a character that comes in with his first Swordsage level at Initiator Level 4, I must say that it is awesome. Its possibility of sorting on any coloumn, and filtering out everything that isn't for a specific class, for a specific level, etc., combined with its listing of the number of prerequisite maneuvers each maneuver requires? Makes things much, easier.

Look at it this way: Firefox is a utility to make maneuver-choosing easier - it's worth installing just to read this file.


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## blargney the second (Aug 29, 2007)

Can you put Firefox on the computer you use?


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## Nail (Aug 30, 2007)

Tempting....seriously.

As I know precious little about Firefox, it looks as if I need to expand my knowledge base.....'cause geez, a "manuever utility" would be useful!


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## blargney the second (Aug 30, 2007)

Firefox is great in and of itself - IE cribbed all its high level spells off Firefox's spellbook.


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## Felnar (Aug 30, 2007)

blargney the second said:
			
		

> Firefox is great in and of itself - IE cribbed all its high level spells off Firefox's spellbook.



firefox introduced me to tabbed browsing and changed my life


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## saucercrab (Aug 31, 2007)

Felnar said:
			
		

> firefox introduced me to tabbed browsing and changed my life



Word.


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## blargney the second (Aug 31, 2007)

saucercrab said:
			
		

> Word.



Word. (language warning, fair and square)
-blarg


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## saucercrab (Sep 1, 2007)

blargney the second said:
			
		

> Word. (language warning, fair and square)
> -blarg



 

On topic, I don't remember anyone mentioning this: 
With retraining, a character could upgrade his Martial Stance & Martial Study feats to get maneuvers that require one or two prerequisites, right? I seem to remember some official source saying that maneuvers can be used to qualify for themselves.


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## Arkhandus (Sep 1, 2007)

Nope.

And it would be absurdly pointless then for the numerous maneuvers that require one maneuver as a prerequisite.

Also, once you no longer meet the prerequisites for a maneuver, just as with a feat or the like, you lose the use of that maneuver.


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## Zurai (Sep 1, 2007)

Arkhandus said:
			
		

> Also, once you no longer meet the prerequisites for a maneuver, just as with a feat or the like, you lose the use of that maneuver.




Incorrect. The book actually specifically mentions that manuevers only check their pre-reqs when you first learn them.


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## Zurai (Sep 1, 2007)

saucercrab said:
			
		

> On topic, I don't remember anyone mentioning this:
> With retraining, a character could upgrade his Martial Stance & Martial Study feats to get maneuvers that require one or two prerequisites, right? I seem to remember some official source saying that maneuvers can be used to qualify for themselves.




No, for two reasons:

One, you cannot retrain maneuvers gained through Martial Study (and you can never retrain stances, gained through Martial Stance or not).
Two, when retraining a maneuver, you lose access to the old maneuver before you learn the new maneuver; thus, you can never use the maneuver you're retraining to qualify for the new maneuver.


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## Arkhandus (Sep 1, 2007)

The book says nothing of the sort, Zurai.  The section where Prerequisites are described does not say it only matters when choosing the maneuver.

Also, you specifically need to meet the prerequisites of a maneuver before taking it, so you cannot take it and then count it as one of the prerequisite maneuvers.

Granted, the book is not entirely clear on the subject, but it sure seems to be the same in spirit as the prerequisite rule for feats.

The Sage answered such a question months ago in Dragon, and said that you lose the use of the maneuver if you no longer meet its prerequisites, until you once again meet the prerequisite (learning enough other maneuvers of the appropriate discipline, or whatever).  Issue 354, April 2007.


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## saucercrab (Sep 1, 2007)

Zurai said:
			
		

> No, for two reasons:
> 
> One, you cannot retrain maneuvers gained through Martial Study (and you can never retrain stances, gained through Martial Stance or not).
> Two, when retraining a maneuver, you lose access to the old maneuver before you learn the new maneuver; thus, you can never use the maneuver you're retraining to qualify for the new maneuver.



If using feat retraining from _PHB II_  (& that's what I was referring to, but didn't specify), One is incorrect. But looking that up, it would only be a useful for relearning a maneuver or stance when a character gained a higher initiator level; it wouldn't help towards prerequisites.


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## saucercrab (Sep 1, 2007)

Arkhandus said:
			
		

> Also, you specifically need to meet the prerequisites of a maneuver before taking it, so you cannot take it and then count it as one of the prerequisite maneuvers.
> 
> Granted, the book is not entirely clear on the subject, but it sure seems to be the same in spirit as the prerequisite rule for feats.
> 
> The Sage answered such a question months ago in Dragon, and said that you lose the use of the maneuver if you no longer meet its prerequisites, until you once again meet the prerequisite (learning enough other maneuvers of the appropriate discipline, or whatever).  Issue 354, April 2007.



That's the _Dragon_ issue I was looking for. Figures it's one I lent out.  :\

I was originally referring to when a martial adept levels up at 4th or higher & chooses to learn a new maneuver in place of another. He can use the maneuver he's trading in as a prerequisite for the new maneuver (or so I thought I remembered the Sage saying that). I was trying to relate that to a non-martial adept retraining feats to gain maneuvers or stances with only a couple of prerequisites, but the text in PHB II would disallow that.


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## Zurai (Sep 1, 2007)

This is from the Tome of Battle FAQ which gathers its Q and As from all official sources:



> Q: All of the new base classes from Tome of Battle offer the option of swapping out an old maneuver to gain a new maneuver at certain levels.
> What happens if, as a result of swapping out an old maneuver, I can no longer meet the pre-requisites for another stance or maneuver that I currently know? Suppose, for instance, that I currently only have the following 2 maneuvers/stances from the Iron Heart discipline: A) Absolute Steel, and B) Disarming Strike. Absolute Steel is a stance that has one Iron Heart maneuver as a pre-requisite. Disarming Strike currently fulfills that pre-requisite for me. Suppose I reach 4th level and decide to swap out Disarming Strike for another maneuver from a different discipline. I no longer meet the pre-requisites for the Absolute Steel stance. Am I still allowed to use the Absolute Steel stance? What if Absolute Steel were a maneuver instead of a stance; would I be allowed to use it?
> A: Going with a strict interpretation of the rules, you would only need to have the appropriate number of maneuvers to meet a prerequisite when you needed to learn the maneuver, not if you wanted to use that maneuver later. So the character in question would still be able to use the Absolute Steel stance even though you have given up your only Iron Heart maneuver. So again, you only have to meet the prerequisites when you learn the maneuver or stance, not when you want to use ready or use it. I hope that clears things up.


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## Arkhandus (Sep 1, 2007)

Even the Sage is less contradictory/random in responses than Customer Service/the FAQs, though. :\  Aside from the occasional obvious slip-up, I'd consider the Sage's clarifications to hold more weight.


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## saucercrab (Sep 1, 2007)

saucercrab said:
			
		

> If using feat retraining from _PHB II_  (& that's what I was referring to, but didn't specify), One is incorrect. But looking that up, it would only be a useful for relearning a maneuver or stance when a character gained a higher initiator level; it wouldn't help towards prerequisites.



I was still off on this. 

Using feat retraining, a character could replace Martial Study (or Martial Stance) with another feat at a lower level, then take it at a later level, effectively switching the level where it's gained, so as to fill higher initiator requirements for a better maneuver/stance (but min. # of maneuvers known still need to be fulfilled).

Zurai,
Thanks for the link. Some of it is helpful.


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## Zurai (Sep 1, 2007)

Arkhandus said:
			
		

> Even the Sage is less contradictory/random in responses than Customer Service/the FAQs, though. :\  Aside from the occasional obvious slip-up, I'd consider the Sage's clarifications to hold more weight.




CustServ doesn't screw up any more often than the Sage does - and that FAQ draws from the Sage as well, btw.


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