# Knocked prone and large creatures



## DarkLord Of DForce (Apr 9, 2010)

I've not been able to find any specific discussion on this in the PHB's that I have and I was just wondering what and how everyone is playing it...

If you have a player who can and does knock prone a lot, and the large creature they are facing does *not* have a specific line in their stat card that says they can not be knocked prone, should they still be able to knock them prone.

This came up in one of our sessions recently. Our DM argued that the 18 foot high Pit Fiend could not be knocked prone because of its size. I argued it could because the stat card doesn't specifically say it can not be knocked prone, and also because, its not really a matter of the strength of the player vs the size and strength of the creature, but rather an ability to knock prone because it is *magically* granted by an item or power.

How do you all feel about this?

Thanks!


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## spayne (Apr 9, 2010)

If you play it by the rules as written, the Pit Fiend can be knocked prone.  Your DM has created his own houserule.


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## Trebor62 (Apr 9, 2010)

Tht rules for GRAB PHB 190 and drag PHB 190 would allow a medium size creature to grab (immobilizing) the Pit Fiend (Large) and drag at half speed if it succeeds with a STR (no weapon modifiers) vs. FORT attack

I see no difference if the PC instead luanch a knock-um prone attack on the Pit Fiend.

What the rules dont directly address are situatuion where the attacker is two or more size catigories smaller the target.

Any way I hope this helps work things out with your DM DarkLord of Dforce


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## holywhitetrash (Apr 9, 2010)

unless otherwise noted any creature can knocked prone
that seems like a terrible idea for dm to have "that because this creature is bigger your attacks should be less effective"
and if you continue down that road you won't be able to force the creature to move or stop it from moving which would make combat incredibly boring
and eventually it would just seem pointless for adventurers to fight anything bigger than them


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## Mengu (Apr 9, 2010)

Knocked prone doesn't necessarily mean "knocked prone". It is a game term, it means:

1. You suffer a -2 penalty to attacks
2. You grant combat advantage against melee attacks.
etc. (see full list in PHB)
You can get rid of these penalties by spending a move action.

You can essentially refluff prone to appear however you need it to appear, as long as it fits some of the criteria. So you could describe an enemy getting knocked prone as one of the following:

- You swing your staff and sweep the feet from under the goblin as he falls on his back (typical).
- You deliver a series of blows with your hammer that drive the ogre down to one knee to effectively defend against you (stretching the description for a larger opponent).
- You slice a piece off the gelatinous cube, and sections of it ooze down to try and recollect the severed piece into its mass (you pretty much go all out abstract).
- Player says: I grab two tentacles of the roper and tie them in a knot, making it's attacks more difficult, and forcing it to spend some time unentangling itself (a comedic description for knockdown assault).

It's best to think of conditions as abstractions. Otherwise, you'll get stuck trying to figure out how in the world you can describe knocking down a jelly fish with a dagger.


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## Oompa (Apr 9, 2010)

I would ask your DM if he has more houserules up his sleave.. And let us know what he tells when you tell him the pit fiend, raw, should be prone..


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## Oompa (Apr 9, 2010)

Mengu said:


> Knocked prone doesn't necessarily mean "knocked prone". It is a game term, it means:
> 
> 1. You suffer a -2 penalty to attacks
> 2. You grant combat advantage against melee attacks.
> ...




Prone does say you are lying on the ground, but it can be refluffed as needed in a situation.. but don't forget that even if you knock him to a knee it would cost the fiend a move action to stand up..


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## Mengu (Apr 9, 2010)

Oompa said:


> Prone does say you are lying on the ground, but it can be refluffed as needed in a situation.. but don't forget that even if you knock him to a knee it would cost the fiend a move action to stand up..




Absolutely. We're just refluffing, not changing rules. You can describe prone as a toothpick stuck in the roof of your mouth. You just have to suffer all associated penalties until you can spend a move action to remove the toothpick.


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## Doctor Proctor (Apr 9, 2010)

You could also ask your DM this: Would he not allow a Kobold to knock a PC prone?  Of if it was a swarm of tiny creatures, would they be able to knock a PC prone?

If the answer to either of those is yes, then he's being hyocritical in his application of the rules, and perhaps pointing that out will change his mind.  There's no difference between a 3 feet tall Kobold trying to knock down the 7 foot tall Goliath, and the 7 foot tall Goliath trying to knock down the 18 foot tall pit fiend.

Also, I second (or would it be like, fourth?) what others have said about reflavoring.  Yes, it can be a bit jarring to hear someone say that they've knocked the Gelatinous Cube prone, but you can just reflavor it to something else (I liked the one idea about it trying to reconstitute a piece of itself that you knocked off, very T-1000) that has the same mechanical effect.  Not allowing it period though is gonna make anything that's past Heroic level _very_ annoying, since you run into a LOT more monsters that are 1+ sizes larger than the player.  If he still has a problem with this though, I would demand a respec so that all players can drop all their powers that knock prone, as he effectively gave them a massive nerf.


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## cdrcjsn (Apr 9, 2010)

Point him to the D&D FAQ page regarding knocking a gelatinous cube prone.  It specifically said to apply the effects even if you have to refluff things (as Mengu suggested).


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## DracoSuave (Apr 9, 2010)

The plated warrior rolls between his legs, hamstringing him as he passes through... the oafish large beast stumbles... the guardsman then leaps forth, shoulder blocking the back of the beast's knee, causing it to stumble under its own weight... the warrior just barely rolls out of the way in time.


The ice is just as slippery when you weigh 2 tons.


The monk leaped up, hitting a pressure point on the temple with a light tap of his stick, causing the enemy to faint for a brief second, waking up horizontal and in great danger.


Kratos shows up.



It's not hard to imagine how a large creature can be pronepwnd.


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## DarkLord Of DForce (Apr 9, 2010)

Thanks everyone.

Since then, in an e-mail group discussion, the DM said that the creature was about to die anyways and that it was kinda pointless, in his opinion for it to go prone.

<shrugs> I can't see much difference there either way, so I'll just keep my fingers crossed that this isn't something we'll see as we go further along (we're lev12 now).


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## UltimaGabe (Apr 9, 2010)

If he's worried about it being a balance issue, remind him that the fact that the Pit Fiend is bigger is already factored into his HP, defenses, attacks and whatnot. Every advantage that needs to be adjusted due to his side is already done so. Unless he specifically cannot be knocked prone, then it's not a benefit of being so big.

Besides, how can he forget? "The bigger they are, the harder they fall!"


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## Squire James (Apr 10, 2010)

I do sometimes house-rule it so creatures more than 1 size bigger are somewhat resistant to being forcibly moved or knocked prone.  I wouldn't ever negate the ability entirely - I'd apply effects similar to if a dwarf were the target (-1 to squares moved, saving throw to avoid falling prone).  I'd be more inclined to do so for non-humanoids with more than 2 "feet".


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## Gruns (Apr 11, 2010)

Next thing you know, he's going to suggest that Minotaurs are immune to the _Maze_ spell... ... ... oh wait...
Later!
Gruns


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