# Lone Wolf (Hero Lab) Lays Off Staff



## kenmarable (Sep 29, 2019)

Never trust anyone who says a business is a “family” especially while laying off someone who just started 3 months ago and moved cross-country for the job. I’ve been through a few layoffs over the years (surviving most of them), and that’s ruder than any I’ve personally witnessed. It’s infuriating.


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## EthanSental (Sep 29, 2019)

I enjoyed HL when we were playing pathfinder 1e, invaluable in keeping up with the feat expansion the game is know for.  Haven’t used it or bought anything since we switch to 5e.  I’m sure that shift in player base and people not buying the data modules had to hurt the revenue they were seeing.


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## R_J_K75 (Sep 29, 2019)

If thats how they treat people then they deserve to tank.


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## EthanSental (Sep 29, 2019)

I think it’s missed opportunity....did they try to get license for 5e?  If they had it back in early 2015 and I know they had posts about talks about it with WOTC, with the 5e explosion and pathfinder dwindle, had to cut into their incoming cash.


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## Henry (Sep 29, 2019)

does DNDBeyond have some sort of exclusivity deal with WotC or something? Not sure, as I know Fantasy Grounds and Roll20 also have character managers. If not, Hero Lab really missed the boat with them for that. All they have is OGL material support, with some unofficial community modules (fan supported) floating around that aren’t exactly 100% copyright legal. I wondered how things were going for them in the wake of the PF2 change - sad to hear, though.


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## Zil (Sep 29, 2019)

EthanSental said:


> I think it’s missed opportunity....did they try to get license for 5e?  If they had it back in early 2015 and I know they had posts about talks about it with WOTC, with the 5e explosion and pathfinder dwindle, had to cut into their incoming cash.



They do have 5E modules for Herolab Classic so it looks like they probably have a 5E license.


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## darjr (Sep 29, 2019)

Last I heard they didn’t have a 5e license, but not for trying. I heard they tried VERY hard.


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## Zil (Sep 29, 2019)

Henry said:


> does DNDBeyond have some sort of exclusivity deal with WotC or something? Not sure, as I know Fantasy Grounds and Roll20 also have character managers. If not, Hero Lab really missed the boat with them for that. All they have is OGL material support, with some unofficial community modules (fan supported) floating around that aren’t exactly 100% copyright legal. I wondered how things were going for them in the wake of the PF2 change - sad to hear, though.



Ah, I stand corrected then.  So their modules are not licensed 5E material, but are OGL material they have put together along with fan material.  I wonder why they went that route?


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## Beleriphon (Sep 29, 2019)

Zil said:


> Ah, I stand corrected then.  So their modules are not licensed 5E material, but are OGL material they have put together along with fan material.  I wonder why they went that route?




Because WotC has other licensees who presumably pay more to them for similar products. Look at D&D Beyond for example.


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## Morrus (Sep 29, 2019)

Beleriphon said:


> Because WotC has other licensees who presumably pay more to them for similar products. Look at D&D Beyond for example.




WotC has issued non-exclusive licenses. Look at Fantasy Grounds and Roll20.


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## Beleriphon (Sep 29, 2019)

Morrus said:


> WotC has issued non-exclusive licenses. Look at Fantasy Grounds and Roll20.




True, and it is an assumption on my part, but it seems like a reasonable on.


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## EthanSental (Sep 29, 2019)

I was hoping they would get a 5e license....their app is great for the iPad at the table and until dndbeyond has their character app that doesn’t need a connection and able to work with downlaoded content....it would have been my go to choice.


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## Ian Danton (Sep 29, 2019)

I have used Hero Lab for years and loved classic for Pathfinder 1st edition. I had a fair bit of communication with them about the app, and they ALWAYS responded, and were ALWAYS helpful. The loss of people is incredibly sad, from both a personal point of view (I can only imagine how it feels having moved so far and then lose the job), and from the loss of development capability. However I appreciate the honest update (he admits he strayed from the "family" approach). Ultimately of course the truth is in the walk and not the talk. I will give them a chance, and hope that Campaign Theater lives up to his vision.


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## Birmy (Sep 30, 2019)

Hero Lab is a great product (or was when I used it regularly in my 3.x days) and I don't wish the Stephens' situation on anyone. Hope things work out for all parties.


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## theapoapostolov (Sep 30, 2019)

I have been major disappointed with Hero Labs as their customer, so when I see news of their slow demise I am not even remotely surprised. I feel sad for the people who bet their life on working for them, but not for the company.

Hero Labs had, for a long time, the hands-down BEST iPad character sheet software, excelling in UI/UX than the current gold standard, Fight Club 5E. It had some community support beyond SRD but it had only a sliver of its promised features and then it stopped developing completely, the community support dried up, and it only got irregular critical fixes. After paying over 100 USD for both PF1 and 5E, It stopped being useful and they never delivered support for homebrew content.

If they had focused on delivering to paying customers on mobile devices where conversion rate is higher and had embraced 5E rather than putting all their eggs in Paizo's basket (understandably, since Paizo is a very forward-thinking company when it comes to digital tools) they might have avoided today's news.


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## Aaron L (Sep 30, 2019)

Morrus said:


> One of those people was Lj Stephens who was offered a job there three months ago and relocated across the US to work there; her husband, Owen KC Stephens, left his job at Paizo to go with her.




Oh my god, that is horrifying!


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## darjr (Sep 30, 2019)

Consider helping by buying some of their stuff.

Here is some of OKS, anyone have other links for other folk?







						DriveThruRPG.com - Rogue Genius Games - The Largest RPG Download Store!
					

Your one-stop online shop for new and vintage RPG products from the top publishers, delivered fresh to your desktop in electronic format.




					www.drivethrurpg.com
				












						Owen K.C. Stephens | creating Geek blogs & RPG rules (Starfinder, 1e/2e Pathfinder, A | Patreon
					

Become a patron of Owen K.C. Stephens today: Get access to exclusive content and experiences on the world’s largest membership platform for artists and creators.




					www.patreon.com
				




Chris Sims shares Owen K. Stephens drive thru and patron links.


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## Malovech (Sep 30, 2019)

They have also all but killed support for Realm Works as well. I guess OneNote is the only real option any more.


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## ddaley (Sep 30, 2019)

Malovech said:


> They have also all but killed support for Realm Works as well. I guess OneNote is the only real option any more.




Realm Works had a lot of potential.  I wish they could have committed the resources necessary to get that product finished.  The marketplace dragged on for years.

I use Omni Outliner on the Mac for taking notes for adventures.  It's not perfect, but seems to be more useful than OneNote.

For others on a Mac: OmniOutliner for Mac - The Omni Group


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## Vicente (Sep 30, 2019)

They should have never focused on making Realm Works online IMHO, and just do an fully offline software. Best wishes and hopes to everyone affected by the news today.


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## Sword of Spirit (Sep 30, 2019)

As a Really Works user, I first thought, "Oh crap!" Then I realized that Really Works has been essentially complete for a while now. About the only thing that I would really like that they haven't completed is the ability to include dates from custom calendars, but that's not essentially, because I can still write whatever imaginary dates I want in a snippet. The other big one I've heard people wanting is the ability to reveal information to individual players, which would probably be more important to me if my players had the software.

Other than that...I can't think of any real features that are missing.


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## Remus Lupin (Sep 30, 2019)

Wow. That sucks. I love HL as an app, but I've never been very impressed with Lone Wolf as a company. This only cements my opinion that they, to all external appearances, seem simultaneously both great game app developers and terrible business people.


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## Cergorach (Sep 30, 2019)

Small companies that rely on 3rd party licenses and software that's located in a highly changing and competitive landscape can sometimes face setbacks. The situation might have been very different when they posted the new position and hired someone.


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## Baumi (Oct 1, 2019)

Sword of Spirit said:


> As a Really Works user, I first thought, "Oh crap!" Then I realized that Really Works has been essentially complete for a while now. About the only thing that I would really like that they haven't completed is the ability to include dates from custom calendars, but that's not essentially, because I can still write whatever imaginary dates I want in a snippet. The other big one I've heard people wanting is the ability to reveal information to individual players, which would probably be more important to me if my players had the software.
> 
> Other than that...I can't think of any real features that are missing.




Just be careful and backup regularly. Online Services that stopped support, often are taken offline shortly afterwards. I hope for all the users, that this is't the case here, but better safe than sorry.


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## Maggan (Oct 1, 2019)

I second and third and whatnot that Realm Works had potential. I used it to run a year and a half long WFRP campaign, but in the end the complexity and issues I had with the speed and interface made me switch my campaign management to Scrivener.


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## Malovech (Oct 1, 2019)

ddaley said:


> Realm Works had a lot of potential.  I wish they could have committed the resources necessary to get that product finished.  The marketplace dragged on for years.
> 
> I use Omni Outliner on the Mac for taking notes for adventures.  It's not perfect, but seems to be more useful than OneNote.
> 
> For others on a Mac: OmniOutliner for Mac - The Omni Group




Can you create a map with pins that open documents beside the map image with OmniOutliner?


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## ddaley (Oct 1, 2019)

Malovech said:


> Can you create a map with pins that open documents beside the map image with OmniOutliner?




Most likely not. I primarily use it for prepping game notes.  It is a great hierarchical note application.  It is capable of doing more than I do in it... can't say I am a power user.  But, it is very quick and easy to create a hierarchical outline of notes.  You can expand and collapse at any level of the note tree too.  So, it is easy to drill into your notes, if you arrange them well.

There is a "Pro" version, which I do not have.


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## Jharet (Oct 2, 2019)

Owen Stephens just moved across the country to join them and instantly was laid off.  Pretty weak sauce on Lone Wolf's part.  I expect them to stop offering support or functionality for their Hero Lab (classic) customers any day now.  I mean, hey, they have the money already, right?


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## Morrus (Oct 2, 2019)

Jharet said:


> Owen Stephens just moved across the country to join them and instantly was laid off.




Lj Stephens. Owen moved with her.


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## Cergorach (Oct 2, 2019)

Jharet said:


> Owen Stephens just moved across the country to join them and instantly was laid off.  Pretty weak sauce on Lone Wolf's part.  I expect them to stop offering support or functionality for their Hero Lab (classic) customers any day now.  I mean, hey, they have the money already, right?




So you expect support on software you buy once, for ever? As long as sales are great that isn't really a problem, as sales fund new development, that will drive new sales. But when new sales plummet due to market conditions (glut) and constrictions (not able to acquire 5E license) things can go bad quickly. Expecting life long support on a buy once product is what I call 'weak sauce'...

I've worked with enough small (IT) companies that I know that the financial situation can turn on a dime. A big customer that you've invested heavily in (to bring product to market) can back out at the last moment, a deal for a product you've been investing heavily in doesn't go through (licenses), market shifts, economy shifts, investor backs out unexpectedly, private situation of the owner changes drastically, etc. Entrepreneurship IS risk at any level, especially for smaller companies. When you go work for such companies you should know the risk when signing up, especially when changing your private live drastically. I don't hear complaints from the folks that were let go, but from folks that don't have a 'clue', apparently. If people were hired by WotC now, they shouldn't be all that surprised if they were let go by Christmas... It happened before and it will happen again. Do your research...

Lone Wolf has imho a very good track-record in the gaming industry, I suspect they've been around the longest and still actively support most of their product lines. If I compare that with the amount of software packages that have been around for the last 30 years and have disappeared again after spending (a lot of) money on them, that isn't even funny... ProFantasy is also such a big rock in gaming software that's been around for a long time, the rest just comes and goes.


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## Beleriphon (Oct 2, 2019)

On why Lone Wolf doesn't havea  5E license, does anybody remember Project Morningstar?


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## Sword of Spirit (Oct 3, 2019)

Beleriphon said:


> On why Lone Wolf doesn't havea  5E license, does anybody remember Project Morningstar?




Was that them?


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## darjr (Oct 3, 2019)

I had forgotten.


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## darjr (Oct 3, 2019)

What Happens If CODENAME: MORNINGSTAR Doesn't Fund?
					

With 2 weeks to go, and only 13% of the $425,000 raised, and those two weeks being Christmas, the odds are that Codename: Morningstar won't fund.  There might be a last-minute turnaround, of course, but the prognosis right now does not look hopeful.  Trapdoor Technologies leader Chris Matney...




					www.enworld.org


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## Beleriphon (Oct 3, 2019)

Sword of Spirit said:


> Was that them?




Yeah, it was supposed to be an app based online/offline character builder and manager.


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## TheObserver (Oct 3, 2019)

Henry said:


> does DNDBeyond have some sort of exclusivity deal with WotC or something? Not sure, as I know Fantasy Grounds and Roll20 also have character managers. If not, Hero Lab really missed the boat with them for that. All they have is OGL material support, with some unofficial community modules (fan supported) floating around that aren’t exactly 100% copyright legal. I wondered how things were going for them in the wake of the PF2 change - sad to hear, though.
> [/QU
> 
> Sad to hear.


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## Cergorach (Oct 4, 2019)

Beleriphon said:


> On why Lone Wolf doesn't havea  5E license, does anybody remember Project Morningstar?



I've been looking _hard _and can't find that these people are the same people.

Lone Wolf Development => San Jose, CA
Trapdoor Technologies => Boulder, CO

According to the KS comments here:








						Codename: Morningstar
					

Create, publish, prepare and play.  A cloud-based application designed to enhance your tabletop RPG adventuring and storytelling.




					www.kickstarter.com
				



Liz T is/was from Lone Wolf and didn't appear part of the TT team. They might know each other though...

Here it says, she's just a backer:








						What Happens If CODENAME: MORNINGSTAR Doesn't Fund?
					

With 2 weeks to go, and only 13% of the $425,000 raised, and those two weeks being Christmas, the odds are that Codename: Morningstar won't fund.  There might be a last-minute turnaround, of course, but the prognosis right now does not look hopeful.  Trapdoor Technologies leader Chris Matney...




					www.enworld.org
				




Based on location, the Internet, and comments here and in the KS I can only conclude that they aren't the same people/company. Do you have any evidence that they are? Please link to it. Making comments like these are really dangerous imho, as they eventually are going to live their own lives...


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## Beleriphon (Oct 4, 2019)

Cergorach said:


> I've been looking _hard _and can't find that these people are the same people.
> 
> Lone Wolf Development => San Jose, CA
> Trapdoor Technologies => Boulder, CO
> ...




Sorry, my intention wasn't to imply that Trapdoor and Lone Wolf were the same, but rather Lone Wolf didn't have a 5E license on the basis that Trapdoor got one for effectively the same product.


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## JeffB (Oct 5, 2019)

I see they took down the PF BB software. I got tons of mileage out of that. After my desktop got destroyed in a electrical fire, I went to go reinstall on my laptop, and cannot find it.  Is this part/result of their ill's?


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## MNblockhead (Oct 5, 2019)

I remain a heavy user of RealmWorks and HeroLab and love the integration of the two products. I started using these projects when I first got back into gaming even though they didn't have a 5e license. I still have not found a better product for building homebrew campaigns. I expect I'll still get a lot of use out of these products for a couple of years, but I'm using DnD Beyond for all rules reference and charactersheets and I'm seriously following World Anvil. It really doesn't hold a candle to RealmWorks for home brew, but Frog God Games is doing some cool things with their IP where they'll be releasing it on World Anvil for others to create their own content in their setting.

I've put my home brew world on ice and have been running Rappan Athuk. Putting existing content into RW is a lot of work. If FGG puts their Lost Lands setting and adventures in World Anvil, I'll likely live with the limitations just to have access to all that content entered for me. Also, World Anvil is being actively developed and adding new features all the time. The risk of course is that if World Anvil goes out of business, you just lose everything. Even though RW is no longer being actively developed, I can still continue to run my games and create new content. 

Even though I see myself moving away from LWD products (mostly because I play DnD 5e), I do wish LWD the best though. The owner and main developer, Rob, has struggled with serious health issues and seems to have bit off more than his small company could chew with the RealmWorks kickstarter. I hope they can focus on making Herolabs Online an excellent product and right their ship.


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## Henry (Oct 6, 2019)

Remus Lupin said:


> Wow. That sucks. I love HL as an app, but I've never been very impressed with Lone Wolf as a company. This only cements my opinion that they, to all external appearances, seem simultaneously both great game app developers and terrible business people.



@Morrus, wasn't Lone Wolf the company you had the “Army Builder” kerfuffle with several years back? Great developers, but their business savvy sometimes wasn’t, well, very savvy...


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## Beleriphon (Oct 8, 2019)

Henry said:


> @Morrus, wasn't Lone Wolf the company you had the “Army Builder” kerfuffle with several years back? Great developers, but their business savvy sometimes wasn’t, well, very savvy...




That seems to the long and the short of it, they're like many people that turn their passion into a business without being business people first. I've seen many a comic book shop go down the tubes because a comic book fan wanted to run a shop, rather than a shop owner wanting to sell comic books.


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## Cergorach (Oct 9, 2019)

They've been in business for over 20 years, so I wouldn't not call them business people.

The "Army Builder" was due to protecting their Army Builder trademark, they have the term "Army Builder" trademarked. They were fighting "trademark genericization", more info here: Unfortunate Developments with Privateer Press - Lone Wolf Development Forums

I find this particularly funny, though accurate:


> Colen clearly stated that we tried the super-polite approach when contacting multiple sites in years past. Every time, that approach netted us zero response. So we followed up those polite emails with something much more insistent that clearly indicated there would be ramifications if we didn't get a response. At that point, people responded. If the polite approach had worked in the past, we'd still be doing it. Since it has proven to be a waste of time, we stopped it in recent years.


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## Sword of Spirit (Oct 10, 2019)

"Army Builder" seems like an awfully general term to be legitimate for trademark. I remember when White Wolf trademarked a laughable number of terms in their WoD games. I'm sure some of those wouldn't have held up in court.

Honestly, I'm a fan of penalties for frivolous trademarks. If you try to trademark something you have no business trademarking, it would be nice if you had to pay a fine for it. But then again I feel the same way about legal contracts and that sort of thing in general.


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## Remus Lupin (Oct 10, 2019)

Sword of Spirit said:


> "Army Builder" seems like an awfully general term to be legitimate for trademark.




Yes, I believe it was noted at the time. I think that's what set many people off.


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## Cergorach (Oct 10, 2019)

@Sword of Spirit I wouldn't be so sure, no one tried to contest that name in court for over 20 years, not even Privateer Press at the height of it's popularity (#2 at the time in minis). People could have used many different names for the same thing, but the most popular (is still around) was Army Builder. You could use army creator, army calculator, force builder, etc. Keep in mind that when this came to a head this was already in use for 12 years by LWD. How is it a generic name, what did this before 1998? Also, good luck using the word 'Apple' in anything related to music and/or computers. How much more generic can you get? But just about everyone in the world knows what that is and what it does. The same goes for SHELL...

I'm not happy with how trademark, but especially patents and copyright is handled currently, but I do see the side of LWD in this case.


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