# The fireball spell through the editions



## Quasqueton (Jul 27, 2006)

The fireball spell through the editions.

Dungeons & Dragons [original edition] (OD&D)







> _Fire Ball_ spell
> A missile which springs from the finger of the Magic-User. It explodes with a burst radius of 2" (slightly larger than specified in CHAINMAIL). In a confined space the Fire Ball will generally conform to the shape of the space (elongate or whatever). The damage caused by the missile will be in proportion to the level of its user. A 6th level Magic-User throws a 6-die missile, a 7th a 7-die missile, and so on. (Note that Fire Balls from Scrolls (see Volume II) and Wand are 6-die missiles and those from Staves are 8-die missiles.




Expert Dungeons & Dragons (ED&D)







> _Fire Ball_ spell
> This spell creates a missile of fire that bursts into a ball of fire 40' across (20' radius) when it strikes a target. The fire ball will do 1-6 (1d6) points of fire damage per level of the caster to each creature within the sphere of fire. EXAMPLE: A fire ball cast by a 6th level magic-user will burst for 6-36 (6d6) points of damage. If the victim of the fire ball saves vs. Spells, the spell will only do half damage.




Advanced Dungeons & Dragons [1st edition] (AD&D1)







> _Fireball_ spell
> A _fireball_ is an explosive burst of flame, which detonates with a low roar, and delivers damage proportionate to the level of the magic-user who cast it, i.e. 1 six-sided die (d6) for each level of experience of the spell caster. _Exception:_ Magic fireball wands deliver 6 die fireballs (6d6), magic staaves with this capability deliver 8 die fireballs, and scroll spells of this type deliver a fireball of from 5 to 10 dice (d6 + 4) of damage. The burst of the _fireball_ does not expend a considerable amount of pressure, and the burst will generally conform to the shape of the area in which it occurs, thus covering an area equal to its normal spherical volume. [The area which is covered by the _fireball_ is a total volume of roughly 33,000 cubic feet (or yards)]. Besides causing damage to creatures, the _fireball_ ignites all combustible materials within its burst radius, and the heat of the _fireball_ will melt soft metals such as gold, copper, silver, etc. Items exposed to the spell's effects must be rolled for to determine if they are affected. Items with a creature which makes its saving throw are considered as unaffected. The magic-user points his or her finger and speaks the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A streak flashes from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body prior to attaining the prescribed range, flowers into the _fireball_. If creatures fail their saving throws, they all take full hit point damage from the blast. Those who make saving throws manage to dodge, fall flat or roll aside, taking 1/2 the full hit point damage --- each and every one within the blast area. The material component of this spell is a tiny ball composed of bat guano and sulphur.




Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Second Edition (AD&D2)







> _Fireball_ spell
> A fireball is an explosive burst of flame, which detonates with a low roar and delivers damage proportional to the level of the wizard who cast it--1d6 points of damage for each level of experience of the spellcaster (up to a maximum of 10d6). The burst of the fireball creates little pressure and generally conforms to the shape of the area in which it occurs. The fireball fills an area equal to its normal spherical volume (roughly 33,000 cubic feet--thirty-three 10' x 10' x 10' cubes). Besides causing damage to creatures, the fireball ignites all combustible materials within its burst radius, and the heat of the fireball melts soft metals such as gold, copper, silver, etc. Exposed items require saving throws vs. magical fire to determine if they are affected, but items in the possession of a creature that rolls a successful saving throw are unaffected by the fireball.
> 
> The wizard points his finger and speaks the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A streak flashes from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball (an early impact results in an early detonation). Creatures failing their saving throws each suffer full damage from the blast. Those who roll successful saving throws manage to dodge, fall flat, or roll aside, each receiving half damage (the DM rolls the damage and each affected creature suffers either full damage or half damage [round fractions down], depending on whether the creature saved or not).
> ...




Dungeons & Dragons [3rd edition] (D&D3)







> _Fireball_ spell
> A _fireball_ spell is an explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to every creature within the area. Unattended objects also take this damage. The explosion creates almost no pressure.
> 
> You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the _fireball_ is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the _fireball_ at that point. (An early impact results in an early detonation.) If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through and arrow slit, you must "hit" the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates permaturely.
> ...




Dungeons & Dragons [4th edition] (D&D4)







> _A globe of orange flame coalesces in your hand. You hurl it at your enemies, and it explodes on impact._
> Area: burst 3 within 20 squares
> Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
> Damage: 3d6 + Intelligence modifier fire damage
> Miss: Half damage




Quasqueton


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## Quasqueton (Jul 27, 2006)

“thirty-three 10' x 10' x 10' cubes”

If the mage (with the party at P) throws a fireball into room A (30’x30’ with 10’ ceiling), the blast will fill the room, and the back blast will carry 50’ down the hall (engulfing the party), fill room B (30’x30’ with 10’ ceiling), continue another 50’ down the hall, and partially fill room C.
	
	



```
***     ***     *
*A**P****B*******C*
***     ***     *
```

Not too many people threw _fireballs_ around in dungeons.

_Fireball_ – when you absolutely positively have to kill every mamma jamma in the dungeon.

Quasqueton


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## Nellisir (Jul 27, 2006)

> [The area which is covered by the fireball is a total volume of roughly 33,000 cubic feet (or yards)]




33,000 cubic yards sounds like big-size fun.  Clean out all 20 levels of a dungeon at once.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jul 27, 2006)

That points out one of the sillier things in OD&D/AD&D rules -- measurements are feet indoors, and yards outdoors.  Bows and spells become significantly more effective if you take them outside.  Just don't ask what happens if you're in a room shooting out the door into the outdoors, or vice versa.


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## Thanee (Jul 27, 2006)

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> Not too many people threw _fireballs_ around in dungeons.




_Lightning bolts_ must have been much more fun, anyways. *bounce* *bounce* 

Bye
Thanee


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## green slime (Jul 27, 2006)

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> “thirty-three 10' x 10' x 10' cubes”
> 
> If the mage (with the party at P) throws a fireball into room A (30’x30’ with 10’ ceiling), the blast will fill the room, and the back blast will carry 50’ down the hall (engulfing the party), fill room B (30’x30’ with 10’ ceiling), continue another 50’ down the hall, and partially fill room C.
> 
> ...




Yeah, those were the days.... *smiles fondly*


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## Scribble (Jul 27, 2006)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> That points out one of the sillier things in OD&D/AD&D rules -- measurements are feet indoors, and yards outdoors.  Bows and spells become significantly more effective if you take them outside.  Just don't ask what happens if you're in a room shooting out the door into the outdoors, or vice versa.





BZZZT BZZZZTTTT ****WARNING PARADOX****  BZZZZZT

Good job destroying the world man, thanks a lot!


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## Mishihari Lord (Jul 27, 2006)

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> “thirty-three 10' x 10' x 10' cubes”
> 
> If the mage (with the party at P) throws a fireball into room A (30’x30’ with 10’ ceiling), the blast will fill the room, and the back blast will carry 50’ down the hall (engulfing the party), fill room B (30’x30’ with 10’ ceiling), continue another 50’ down the hall, and partially fill room C.
> 
> ...




I far prefer the old version.  I like the idea that magic is tricky and dangerous and will come back and bite you if you're not careful or don't kow what you're doing.

As a DM I also loved watching PCs fireball themselves and their friends.


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## Quasqueton (Jul 27, 2006)

duplicate post


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## Quasqueton (Jul 27, 2006)

Looking at the specific text of the spells, I find the subtle changes the most interesting. The mentions of melting metals, the spelling of sulphur/sulfur, streak vs. pea-sized bead, the spelling of the spell (two words vs. one word). Much of the text in AD&D1, AD&D2, and D&D3 seemed to be copy and paste, so the subtle changes had to be intentionally made.

Quasqueton


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## Scribble (Jul 27, 2006)

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> Looking at the specific text of the spells, I find the subtle changes the most interesting. The mentions of melting metals, the spelling of sulphur/sulfur, streak vs. pea-sized bead, the spelling of the spell (two words vs. one word). Much of the text in AD&D1, AD&D2, and D&D3 seemed to be copy and paste, so the subtle changes had to be intentionally made.
> 
> Quasqueton




I'm assuming the streak vrs Bead edit was to prevent people from confusing fireball with a ray effect? (or a line)


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## Henry (Jul 27, 2006)

In one old Dungeon adventure, I saw a fighter take out almost HALF of an entire warren of goblins in 5' x 5' corridors with one fireball from a necklace of missiles. He just ducked  and took the damage, and the goblins just fried and died, whether they made their save or not.  you think 33 10' cubes are brutal - how about 264!!?!?!!


I do miss the compression effect, but don't really miss the melting of metals, because I don't see why things like steel would melt, though lead and copper I think definitely would.


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## DethStryke (Jul 27, 2006)

I'm far more disappointed by the changes to Lightning Bolt than Fireball. 

That melting point issue makes me realize that alot of the DMs I've played under don't really remember to count this in... When was the last time that your DM ruled that all the coin the monsters were carrying in little pouches on their belt were melted into small multi-colored balls of precious metal?


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## Scribble (Jul 27, 2006)

DethStryke said:
			
		

> I'm far more disappointed by the changes to Lightning Bolt than Fireball.
> 
> That melting point issue makes me realize that alot of the DMs I've played under don't really remember to count this in... When was the last time that your DM ruled that all the coin the monsters were carrying in little pouches on their belt were melted into small multi-colored balls of precious metal?




I once played a halfling cleric named Roofus. He got ambushed by a bunch of spiders that pulled him up into a tree. The party mage, in order to "save" roofus, blasted the whole tree with a Fire Ball... The DM ruled my chainmail melted and fused with my skin. Ouch. 

But hey, it gave me a "natural" armor class!


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## lukelightning (Jul 27, 2006)

Ah yes, the good old days of fireball expansion.  That was my first lesson on how to find the volume of a sphere (my older brother had to explain how the 33000 number came from).

My magic-user was a friggin' terror in the dungeon; thankfully my DM was gracious enough to allow us to use the "open the door a crack...fireball in, slam the door and jump back" strategy.

We also had something called an "All-Dice Fireball" which was a special ability we got granted from some deity for killing a demon lord.  An All-Dice Fireball was just that: A fireball that's damage is ALL THE DICE. No, not a d4 and a d6 and a d8, etc. No, not even all the d6's. It was ALL THE DICE IN THE HOUSE   . We raided the yahtzee and monopoly games, scrounged up every die we could find.  

*BOOM* then spend the next 15 minutes tallying up the damage....woo hoo, 343 points! Whaddaya mean pit fiends are immune to fire!?!?!?


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## lukelightning (Jul 27, 2006)

DethStryke said:
			
		

> When was the last time that your DM ruled that all the coin the monsters were carrying in little pouches on their belt were melted into small multi-colored balls of precious metal?




No big problem; all the gold melts into a blob so you don't need to worry about spilling coins.

I guess that's where all those electrum pieces came from: All the sp and gp melting together.


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## el-remmen (Jul 27, 2006)

I still use 33,000 cubic foot fireballs.

Heck, _and_ bouncing lightning bolts as well - if the bolt does not do enough damage to break through a barrier, it bounces back instead.


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## Henry (Jul 27, 2006)

el-remmen said:
			
		

> I still use 33,000 cubic foot fireballs.
> 
> Heck, _and_ bouncing lightning bolts as well - if the bolt does not do enough damage to break through a barrier, it bounces back instead.




You, I like.


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## diaglo (Jul 27, 2006)

Henry said:
			
		

> el-remmen said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




ditto


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## Sidekick (Jul 27, 2006)

El-Remmen: you're my hero  


Ahh yes the good old days of 2nd ed. When I could blow  up real good in a dungeon. 

fireball was my friend.

I also really miss the bouncing lightning bolt. Once my DM had us fight a gold golem in a dungeon where lots of the walls were at strange angles. We didn't get it until the lightning bolts trap came into effect. The damn thing jumped about all over the place making us lose about 60% of the standing room.

Upside - when we killed the golem, it came time for trying to carry out all the treasure. We tallies up all the coins, adn then realised that the leg of the golem was worth more than then coins we could carry. So we left the coins & took the leg and gems. 

The banker in town wal well surprised when we asked to exchange the leg for trade bars and gems. hehehe


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## lukelightning (Jul 27, 2006)

Sidekick said:
			
		

> The banker in town wal well surprised when we asked to exchange the leg for trade bars and gems. hehehe




And henceforth the people of the land would refer to terribly expensive things as "costing an arm and a leg" in honor of the heroes' deeds.


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## rgard (Jul 27, 2006)

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> “thirty-three 10' x 10' x 10' cubes”
> 
> If the mage (with the party at P) throws a fireball into room A (30’x30’ with 10’ ceiling), the blast will fill the room, and the back blast will carry 50’ down the hall (engulfing the party), fill room B (30’x30’ with 10’ ceiling), continue another 50’ down the hall, and partially fill room C.
> 
> ...




  I've seen it happen.  TPK.

Thanks,
Rich


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## Lanefan (Jul 27, 2006)

Just to add my voice to the love for the 33-cube fireball and the rebounding lightning bolt.

Various other threads of late have covered whether 3e is more tightly reined in (and therefore less fun) than prior editions; all other considerations aside, I merely point to the changes to these two spells as evidence that it is.

To any "official" designers who might be reading: fix this for 4e, dammit! 

Lanefan


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## painandgreed (Jul 27, 2006)

DethStryke said:
			
		

> That melting point issue makes me realize that alot of the DMs I've played under don't really remember to count this in... When was the last time that your DM ruled that all the coin the monsters were carrying in little pouches on their belt were melted into small multi-colored balls of precious metal?




I was the RBDM in such cases. I made everything in the AoE save. So not only did the PC save versus damage but also his weapons and armor, back pack, etc. teh saving grace was that if a container saved, so did the things inside of it. So the coins didn't need to save unless the pouch failed first. PCs were very concious of having very good backpacks, scroll tubes, seperate bags for books and such (all of which would go inside the back pack), etc. This ruling was instituted originally not only because of versimiltude but also because I had a party of multiclassed magic-users and they would just use multiple fireballs and destroy anything they came across. They quickly decided against AoE spells so they could continue to get treasure.


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## frankthedm (Jul 27, 2006)

DethStryke said:
			
		

> I'm far more disappointed by the changes to Lightning Bolt than Fireball.
> 
> That melting point issue makes me realize that alot of the DMs I've played under don't really remember to count this in... When was the last time that your DM ruled that all the coin the monsters were carrying in little pouches on their belt were melted into small multi-colored balls of precious metal?



I do this _any_ time the damage is fatal to the victim. I'll accept for playability "your stuff survives if you do", but if you don't heroicly survive the blast or zap, what you wear won't either unless it is a lot tougher than you were when you took that blast.


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## Quasqueton (Jul 27, 2006)

> Various other threads of late have covered whether 3e is more tightly reined in (and therefore less fun) than prior editions; all other considerations aside, I merely point to the changes to these two spells as evidence that it is.



D&D3 fireballs are more like the OD&D* and ED&D versions, and I’m glad. The expanding fireballs of AD&D1 and AD&D2 were unfun (either unused by wise PCs, or used once by unwise PCs, or used repeatedly for widespread destruction by cheesy PCs). Other spells didn’t have their AoE expanded by being in the most common adventure locale (dungeons).

I’m quite happy with the OD&D, ED&D, and D&D3 versions of the spell.

* “Conform” does not mean expand, and “elongate” does not mean expand.

Quasqueton


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## Lanefan (Jul 27, 2006)

painandgreed said:
			
		

> I was the RBDM in such cases. I made everything in the AoE save. So not only did the PC save versus damage but also his weapons and armor, back pack, etc. teh saving grace was that if a container saved, so did the things inside of it.



This is exactly what I still do, except that if the PC makes the save, all possessions are considered to have made it as well. (and even if the PC fails, I don't worry about trivial non-magic gear, but tents, ropes, weapons, armour, shield, and anything magic all need to save; backpacks also need to save but they for some reason always survive, to the point where we've decided that when all other races are long since gone, backpacks will inherit the world)

Lanefan


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## Lanefan (Jul 27, 2006)

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> D&D3 fireballs are more like the OD&D* and ED&D versions, and I’m glad. The expanding fireballs of AD&D1 and AD&D2 were unfun (either unused by wise PCs, or used once by unwise PCs, or used repeatedly for widespread destruction by cheesy PCs). Other spells didn’t have their AoE expanded by being in the most common adventure locale (dungeons).



The AoE doesn't expand, though...it's always the *volume* of a 20' radius sphere; the only difference is that the spell tries to fill that volume no matter what, as opposed to many other spells whose effect stops at a set distance even if all the potential volume hasn't been used up.

And, I have *no* problem with PC's (and opponents, for that matter) potentially frying themselves with their own spell...if you want to chuck an area-effect damage spell into an unexplored area, go ahead; but if the area's not big enough to hold it, the result ought to be unpleasant. 

Lanefan


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## Glyfair (Jul 27, 2006)

I just loved sitting down for an evening of fun and having then having to perform mathematics to determine how much area was effect by a common spell.  Oh, yes, and as a DM having to pull out your map and methodically work out exactly which areas were effected by the fireball spell.  I thought people were arguing that earlier editions of D&D were faster in combat 

Of course, the longest running game I played in had 3 physics majors, and few of the rest of us didn't at least have some familiarity with it.  I still remember being in falling elevator and having them sit down to work out what velocity it would hit at, and then realize that the gravity of the campaign world might not be the same as ours.

Oh yes, and the dungeon the DM designed after finishing a long grueling study session for his optics final.  Rays all around, each creating an artifact level effect (having my paladin end up with a poison touch was very campaign changing).


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jul 27, 2006)

Lanefan said:
			
		

> The AoE doesn't expand, though...it's always the *volume* of a 20' radius sphere; the only difference is that the spell tries to fill that volume no matter what, as opposed to many other spells whose effect stops at a set distance even if all the potential volume hasn't been used up.
> 
> And, I have *no* problem with PC's (and opponents, for that matter) potentially frying themselves with their own spell...if you want to chuck an area-effect damage spell into an unexplored area, go ahead; but if the area's not big enough to hold it, the result ought to be unpleasant.
> 
> Lanefan




I totally agree.


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## Plane Sailing (Jul 27, 2006)

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> D&D3 fireballs are more like the OD&D* and ED&D versions, and I’m glad. The expanding fireballs of AD&D1 and AD&D2 were unfun (either unused by wise PCs, or used once by unwise PCs, or used repeatedly for widespread destruction by cheesy PCs). Other spells didn’t have their AoE expanded by being in the most common adventure locale (dungeons)




Not really; many OD&D players had fireballs which filled their entire volume in confined spaces (I know that I did for instance).

Curiously, there were some big discussions in those days, which took place in the APAs (amature publishing associations)  - things like Alarums and Excursions, The Wild Hunt, Trollcrusher and others. It was a bit like internet forums which only got updated once a month 

I can't remember whether you were playing in those days, but the heated discussions tended to be on (a) whether a fireball expanded to fill its full volume or not and (b) whether the damage was supposed to be applied fully to each target or divided amongst the targets (I kid you not). It is interesting that AD&D expressly resolved both of those issues.

Cheers


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## T. Foster (Jul 27, 2006)

I like fireballs expanding to their full volume, but think using the full spherical volume is excessive (since even outdoors the spell is likely to be targeted at ground level and require calculations). Therefore I prefer to think of the spell less as a "fire ball" and more of a "fire disc" (10' height x 20' radius) or perhaps a "fire hemisphere" -- the former fills ~12.5 10x10 squares and ignores the 3rd dimension entirely, the latter fills ~16.75 10x10x10 cubes and if cast in mid-air would conform to a sphere of a little over 15' radius. If playing AD&D I'll go with what the books say (even though I don't really like it) but in OD&D I'm more likely to go with one or the other of the above.


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## Lanefan (Jul 27, 2006)

Glyfair said:
			
		

> I just loved sitting down for an evening of fun and then having to perform mathematics to determine how much area was effect by a common spell.  Oh, yes, and as a DM having to pull out your map and methodically work out exactly which areas were effected by the fireball spell.  I thought people were arguing that earlier editions of D&D were faster in combat



With fireball, I just count squares spreading out from ground zero until I get to 33.  If it's a 15' ceiling, each square counts as 1.5, and so on.  A PC standing in an "edge" square gets a bonus on the save with a chance to be missed entirely. The nightmares are fireballs cast in small rough caverns with variable ceiling heights...there, I must admit, I kinda have to guess... 

Lanefan


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## Ridley's Cohort (Jul 27, 2006)

Lanefan said:
			
		

> Various other threads of late have covered whether 3e is more tightly reined in (and therefore less fun) than prior editions; all other considerations aside, I merely point to the changes to these two spells as evidence that it is.




Yes, 3e spells are generally easier to use and promote faster play.


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## Ilium (Jul 27, 2006)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> That points out one of the sillier things in OD&D/AD&D rules -- measurements are feet indoors, and yards outdoors.  Bows and spells become significantly more effective if you take them outside.  Just don't ask what happens if you're in a room shooting out the door into the outdoors, or vice versa.



 A friend of mine used to play a dwarf who always threatened to make money by challenging humans to foot races.  The races would take place in a bazaar with an arcaded walkway.  He'd make the human run inside the walkway while he ran (right next to his opponent) outside the walkway.


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## grodog (Jul 28, 2006)

T. Foster said:
			
		

> I like fireballs expanding to their full volume, but think using the full spherical volume is excessive (since even outdoors the spell is likely to be targeted at ground level and require calculations). Therefore I prefer to think of the spell less as a "fire ball" and more of a "fire disc" (10' height x 20' radius) or perhaps a "fire hemisphere" -- the former fills ~12.5 10x10 squares and ignores the 3rd dimension entirely, the latter fills ~16.75 10x10x10 cubes and if cast in mid-air would conform to a sphere of a little over 15' radius.




I like your ideas, Trent, but I've also used fireball as defined in the PHB as our standard for play.  That said, I've had PCs and NPCs research variants on the spell that are similar to what you outline above, so that they can make the area of effect smaller, or make it flexible within some constraints, etc.  Sinking some time and gp into creating the perfect fireball for use in a dungeon even became the "mad wizard" quest for a fireball-loving player I knew of:  IIRC he had about 4 different versions of the spell, ranging in level from 2 to 6 or so.


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## johnsemlak (Jul 28, 2006)

One side note--I think the idea of capping hte damage of fire ball and similar spells to a certain number of d6s was first introduced in (IIRC) the Companion Rules set.  There the limit was 20d6.  3e tones it down to 10d6.


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## Melan (Jul 28, 2006)

I use fireballs the way T.Foster does - I usually omit the third dimension, unless it is cast in _very_ cramped quarters. It is also fun to roll item saving throws for dungeon doors and whatnot to see where spillover happens...

It is interesting to note how fireballs have decreased in power - and not just because of filling available space or not. In pre-supplements OD&D, when characters usually had no more than 1d6 hp per level, 5d6 points of damage is brutal. With Greyhawk, your fighter's HD is increased to 1d8 - making survival easier. Things sort of went downhill from there with damage caps, and today, the fireball is a shadow of its former self... Nevertheless, still very useful: I was playing a wizard in a 3.0 game last week, and turning a horde of 10 black bears into *goddam bear steak* was as fun as ever.


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## Glyfair (Jul 28, 2006)

Melan said:
			
		

> It is interesting to note how fireballs have decreased in power - and not just because of filling available space or not. In pre-supplements OD&D, when characters usually had no more than 1d6 hp per level, 5d6 points of damage is brutal. With Greyhawk, your fighter's HD is increased to 1d8 - making survival easier. Things sort of went downhill from there with damage caps, and today, the fireball is a shadow of its former self...




You forgot the secondary effect.  In AD&D characters hit points almost stop once they reach "name level."  Fireball, on the other hand, continued to grow in damage.  In 3E character's hit points continue to grow at the standard rate, but fireball stops growing at 10th level.  This is one of many reasons that most considered high level AD&D to be the province of magic-users.

Let's compare a 20th level fighter with a 16 Con against a _fireball_ from a 20th level magic-user.  In AD&D the fighter has an average of 101 hit points, and the _fireball_ does an average of 35 hit points on a successful save.  So, 3 fireballs will drop a 20th level fighter.

In D&D 3E the fighter has an average of 154 hit points.  The _fireball_ does an average of 18 hit points.  That means it takes an average of 9 fireballs to drop a 20th level fighter.

That's not the whole picture.  The AD&D fighter is far, far more likely to save, for example.   You also have to take into account the typical bonuses to stats and the differences between editions.  However, it's still a good snapshot of the differences.


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## Hussar (Jul 28, 2006)

ON a slightly related note.  I used a wish to wipe out all those giants in the Hall when I wished for a 20 die fireball at my paladin's feet.  Actually managed to survive it too.  Ring of fire resistance saved my butt.


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## Imp (Jul 28, 2006)

Yup.  Fireballs in 3e are wussier.  I do like the idea of some area-effect spells having the potential to backfire, and I've always played with ricocheting lightning bolts, but the less-deadly 3e fireball backlash has a way of making the complicated volume calculations a lot less compelling.  I always just abstracted it out to horizontal area of effect, anyway.


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## Glyfair (Jul 28, 2006)

Imp said:
			
		

> Yup.  Fireballs in 3e are wussier.



Yup.  Takes away so much power from the arcane classes you almost might consider running a fighter at 5th level or higher 



> I do like the idea of some area-effect spells having the potential to backfire, and I've always played with ricocheting lightning bolts, but the less-deadly 3e fireball backlash has a way of making the complicated volume calculations a lot less compelling.  I always just abstracted it out to horizontal area of effect, anyway.




I personally don't mind possible backlash considerations, as long as they are quick and easy to deal with.  The earlier edition fireballs just weren't.  Lightning Bolts were much easier, but every case I saw that the repercussions were dealt with, it was to make a 3rd level spell as powerful as a 4th or 5th level spell (if I bounce it here I can hit the BBEG twice, and all of his minions except for this guy, so deal with him).


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## TheNovaLord (Jul 28, 2006)

the are very weak now

they do the same damage, but charcaters ahve a lot more hp nowanadays cf to OD&D and AD&D

clerics only had d6 in OD&D and thieves D4, and clerics had way fewer spells to protect themselves, though u did a CON hp bonus for a 13 stat

in AD&D evrybody is upped a hit dice type, but con bonuses are harder to ger

I also 'feel' it is easier to save against it now, than previous, though various feats can make it more

JohnD


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## Sarellion (Jul 28, 2006)

I think it is good that the expanding volume went away. Especially when you don´t make detailed plans for the area.


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## Plane Sailing (Jul 28, 2006)

TheNovaLord said:
			
		

> t
> they do the same damage, but charcaters ahve a lot more hp nowanadays cf to OD&D and AD&D
> 
> clerics only had d6 in OD&D and thieves D4, and clerics had way fewer spells to protect themselves, though u did a CON hp bonus for a 13 stat




I agree with your basic point, but ought to note that thieves didn't come into OD&D until Greyhawk (supplement 1) and they arrived with d6 hd, mirroring clerics.

Of course, in those days clerics didn't even get their FIRST spell until they had accumulated 1500xps, and each orc was only worth, what, 25xp?

Kids TODAY think they have it tough


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## Glyfair (Jul 28, 2006)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> Of course, in those days clerics didn't even get their FIRST spell until they had accumulated 1500xps, and each orc was only worth, what, 25xp?
> 
> Kids TODAY think they have it tough



Yeah, but you used to get experience for treasure as well.  A 1st level character who stumbled on a chest of gold could get it home and gain a level!


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## Henrix (Jul 28, 2006)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> One side note--I think the idea of capping hte damage of fire ball and similar spells to a certain number of d6s was first introduced in (IIRC) the Companion Rules set.  There the limit was 20d6.  3e tones it down to 10d6.



Don't blame everything on 3e. The quotes above show that the 10d6 damage cap is from 2e.


But in 3e fireball has certainly become less overpowered, obligatory and faster to handle.


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## Henry (Jul 28, 2006)

Yes, 3E opted for spells that promoted speedier play, and it's really about where you want your slowness. In 3E, the slowness is more around rules lookups than around specific effects themselves, and tends to decrease with more rules proficiency. In AD&D, the rules were for the most part fewer, but the slowness came around the DM making sure his ruling was fair where the rules weren't covered.

Still doesn't take away the fact that we used to have a lot of fun figuring out whether you were crisped by your own fireball or not. 

I will say that most magic-users I knew or played took the space into consideration when planning fireball usage. If they were in cramped quarters, they'd throw their fireballs further out beyond the enemy, to accomodate the expanded area. If space didn't permit, they'd either retreat to more open areas, or pick different spells (flame arrow, or web, or stinking cloud, or magic missile, or lightning bolt, cone of cold if higher level, etc.)


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## Scribble (Jul 28, 2006)

Henry said:
			
		

> I will say that most magic-users I knew or played took the space into consideration when planning fireball usage. If they were in cramped quarters, they'd throw their fireballs further out beyond the enemy, to accomodate the expanded area. If space didn't permit, they'd either retreat to more open areas, or pick different spells (flame arrow, or web, or stinking cloud, or magic missile, or lightning bolt, cone of cold if higher level, etc.)





Yeah... I'll agree with this... Most players I knew would sit and figure out how much room they had and if it would crisp them or not before they shot it off so it didn't really come in to play much unless you screwed up...  Or the DM ruled no measuring before casting... Which brought the argument "But as a crazy intelligent Mage I should know what my spells will do... blah blah..."

New spell makes things faster, but I will admit does remove the "haha stupid wizard." aspect. 

As for the damage cap... I think it's a good thing overall. It is a Game, and I'm guessing the damage caps keep the wizard from turning into the end all be all class after gaining 3rd level spells.

It's still a good way to deal a good hit of damage to lots of people at once. (which not a lot of classes can do...)


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## woodelf (Jul 28, 2006)

Glyfair said:
			
		

> I just loved sitting down for an evening of fun and having then having to perform mathematics to determine how much area was effect by a common spell.  Oh, yes, and as a DM having to pull out your map and methodically work out exactly which areas were effected by the fireball spell.  I thought people were arguing that earlier editions of D&D were faster in combat




It's a non-issue in a typical all-squares dungeon. The only time we ever had to do any real figuring was outdoors.  Quick: what's the radius of a fireball with a target origin 5' above the ground, on an open plane, if its volume is equivalent to a 20'-radius sphere? That one gave us a bit of a headache. Spherical volume? Easy. Hemispherical volume? Easy. Arbitrary portion of a sphere? Pain in the butt.

We almost never used a battle map--just relied on verbal positioning for most wilderness stuff. But this one came up when the PCs wanted to blow up some people who had just ambushed them with a net trap, and were standing quite close. So in order to get the most opponents, the player specified a target point 25' from the closest-to-the-blast-point PC, and 5' off the ground, completely forgetting the truncating effect of the ground itself. (The 5' off the ground part was because they wanted the maximal cross-sectional diameter at around chest level, rather than ground level, to be sure and catch as many opponents as possible. We used math, not grids, so things didn't get rounded to the nearest 5' increment, and thus every foot counted.)


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## painandgreed (Jul 28, 2006)

However, I sort of miss designing dungeons to take into account fireballs volume. Walls of force, illusionary walls making the room look smaller, and additional corriders to vent fireballs and lessen their effect in rooms with bad guys. Then building the corridors to encounter the BBEG as narrow and long with proper volume so that a fireball will envelope the entire hallway including back around corners where people might be hiding.


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## Evilhalfling (Jul 28, 2006)

in earlier addtions the party just stopped preping fireball for dungeons - and occasionally got caught by bouncing L bolts.

My fav use of lightning was the vampire mage and the paladin in a 10x10 room - the mist floated away chuckling evily.  

And I still remember the line from Homelands trilogy (where the drow refused to send mages top side after a mishap with a FB exploding to an unpredictible size.  Made drow look like novices. )


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## TheNovaLord (Jul 28, 2006)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> I agree with your basic point, but ought to note that thieves didn't come into OD&D until Greyhawk (supplement 1) and they arrived with d6 hd, mirroring clerics.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> maybe i meant basic D&D where thieves only had d4 hp! the red book


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## Philotomy Jurament (Jul 29, 2006)

TheNovaLord said:
			
		

> Plane Sailing said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Contrarian (Jul 29, 2006)

lukelightning said:
			
		

> My magic-user was a friggin' terror in the dungeon; thankfully my DM was gracious enough to allow us to use the "open the door a crack...fireball in, slam the door and jump back" strategy.:




I used to let PCs do that back when I was 13 and didn't know any better.  Which leads to My Best Fireball Story:

PCs are slogging through G-1-2-3 _Against the Giants_. (It's been so long, I don't remember exactly which giant stronghold they were in.)  They come to a closed door, the thief listens at the door, and the party decides the bad guys on the other side are tough enough that they need to soften them up with the "fireball and shut the door trick."  Unfortunately for them, the door is locked and the thief fails this lockpicking roll.

The players' brilliant plan?  The magic-user will _start_ casting Fireball, _then_ the ranger will force the door open, and _then_ the magic-user will send the fireball through the door, and _then_ the ranger will shut the door.

Yeah, what you're imagining right now is _exactly_ what happened.

The ranger, despite wearing a _girdle of giant strength_ (and thus having something like a 95% of forcing open doors) _fails_.  The magic-user blasts the ranger _in the back_ with a fireball.  The party takes massive damage -- one PC dies on the spot.  The ranger (still alive, because he was 100-hp tank) is knocked through the flaming remains of the door into the room, and combat begins.

On a more positive note, I did rule that the NPCs inside the room were suprised by the exploding door and flaming ranger, because I know I sure as hell would be.

Nobody ever tried "fireball and shut the door" after that.


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## Quasqueton (Jan 13, 2009)

I just added the D&D4 version of _fireball_ to the list.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...eball-spell-through-editions.html#post2972187

Quasqueton


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## Remathilis (Jan 13, 2009)

johnsemlak said:


> One side note--I think the idea of capping hte damage of fire ball and similar spells to a certain number of d6s was first introduced in (IIRC) the Companion Rules set.  There the limit was 20d6.  3e tones it down to 10d6.




Actually, 2e toned them down to 10d6. They also limited magic missiles (5 max), and lightning bolt (10d6) the same way.

Beyond that, I recall with horror stories from a former roommate about a DM he knew that counted cubic feet for fireball. After the 2nd TPK (cept for the caster) no one was allowed to memorize or cast that spell in their group. Even having it in your spellbook was grounds for your PC being attacked and killed by the other PCs!


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## The Shaman (Jan 13, 2009)

el-remmen said:


> I still use 33,000 cubic foot fireballs.
> 
> Heck, _and_ bouncing lightning bolts as well - if the bolt does not do enough damage to break through a barrier, it bounces back instead.



As it should be.


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## Ahglock (Jan 13, 2009)

Glyfair said:


> Yup.  Takes away so much power from the arcane classes you almost might consider running a fighter at 5th level or higher




Weirdly enough, despite this in 3e wizards became more powerful than ever before.  I thought thieves needed work in the previous editions, but most of the other classes actually in game play worked out well.  In 2e as you leveled, you encountered Magic resistance, much nastier than 3es spell resistance, and saves were much harder to overcome.  Save or die spells were a waste to cast and fire ball did pidly damage.


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## starwed (Jan 13, 2009)

Heh, for the first page or so I was wondering why an edition war hadn't broken out...


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## Plane Sailing (Jan 13, 2009)

Quasqueton said:


> I just added the D&D4 version of _fireball_ to the list.
> 
> http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...eball-spell-through-editions.html#post2972187
> 
> Quasqueton




Your 'quote' is a bit off for it, I'll fix it for you.


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## Nikosandros (Jan 13, 2009)

This a very cool thread. I missed it the first time around.

While edition wars make me feel sick to the stomach, edition _comparisons_ are extremely fascinating.

I must confess that in most AD&D games that I ran (including my very long campaign), I used a "non-expanding" fireball, 3e-style. Did anyone else ever do the same in AD&D?


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## diaglo (Jan 13, 2009)

Plane Sailing said:


> I agree with your basic point, but ought to note that thieves didn't come into OD&D until Greyhawk (supplement 1) and they arrived with d6 hd, mirroring clerics.
> 
> Of course, in those days clerics didn't even get their FIRST spell until they had accumulated 1500xps, and each orc was only worth, what, 25xp?
> 
> Kids TODAY think they have it tough




i won't correct you since Philotomy Jurament already did. d4 hps for thieves.
the error i think you are misremembering was the monk vs assassin.


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## JDJblatherings (Jan 13, 2009)

The fireball has certainly gotten wimpier over the years (relative to PC/NPC hitpoints).

While expanding fireballs are sorta fun the tac-nuke nature of 33,000 square foot fireballs is just a little too much.  Of course if they still did that in 4th edition they'd only really be good for cleanign up minions.


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## ExploderWizard (Jan 13, 2009)

Nikosandros said:


> This a very cool thread. I missed it the first time around.
> 
> While edition wars make me feel sick to the stomach, edition _comparisons_ are extremely fascinating.
> 
> I must confess that in most AD&D games that I ran (including my very long campaign), I used a "non-expanding" fireball, 3e-style. Did anyone else ever do the same in AD&D?




Not really. I always enjoyed the volume aspect of fireball, the bouncing lightning bolts, and other quirky parts of magic use. These sorts of things, along with declaring spell use and rolled initiative each round helped keep casters from being quite so dominating in play. Once spells got super reliable and it became more difficult to disrupt casting in 3E, the power of spell use got a boost, which inspired a perceived need to tone down casters. Hackmaster has some really awesome fireball variants that I want to play with sometime.


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## Charwoman Gene (Jan 13, 2009)

*Pea sized bead like a pellet like something a rabbit excretes i wanna blast people with fire!*


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## Nebulous (Jan 13, 2009)

Hmm.  The 4e fireball is boring when i look at them all side by side. I'd love to see some variants of that spell as well, it would be so easy to tack on.


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## Bullgrit (Jan 13, 2009)

Something I had never noticed before: The Expert D&D version requires hitting a target for the fireball to explode.

Bullgrit
Total Bullgrit


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## ExploderWizard (Jan 13, 2009)

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> That points out one of the sillier things in OD&D/AD&D rules -- measurements are feet indoors, and yards outdoors. Bows and spells become significantly more effective if you take them outside. Just don't ask what happens if you're in a room shooting out the door into the outdoors, or vice versa.




I missed the earlier parts of this thread. IIRC the OD&D/AD&D conversions for feet to yards was strictly regarding range considerations and did not in fact increase the area of effect.


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## Plane Sailing (Jan 13, 2009)

diaglo said:


> i won't correct you since Philotomy Jurament already did. d4 hps for thieves.
> the error i think you are misremembering was the monk vs assassin.




I remember d4 for monks, but didn't remember d4 for thieves. Ah well, I'm not too ashamed of misremembering a detail that I've not looked at for about 30 years!


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## Plane Sailing (Jan 13, 2009)

One of the hot topics of discussion in OD&D days (in the APA's) was whether fireball damage should be applied equally to all targets or divided between the targets equally. Not many people agreed with the divided between targets since it would make large swarms of rats almost immune (and might have led to the 'original bag of rats' silliness!)

I only mention it because it is probably why the 1e text expressly says "If creatures fail their saving throws, they all take full hit point damage from the blast."

Cheers


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## Obryn (Jan 13, 2009)

ExploderWizard said:


> I missed the earlier parts of this thread. IIRC the OD&D/AD&D conversions for feet to yards was strictly regarding range considerations and did not in fact increase the area of effect.



I almost replied about this last night, but then I noticed the 2006 date. 

From recently reading the 1e rules, this is correct.  Your fireball does not get bigger if you're outdoors.

It is one of those areas where 1e is confusing and self-contradictory.  Still wonderful, but undeniably confusing and self-contradictory.

-O


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## diaglo (Jan 13, 2009)

Plane Sailing said:


> I remember d4 for monks, but didn't remember d4 for thieves. Ah well, I'm not too ashamed of misremembering a detail that I've not looked at for about 30 years!




but i think that was one of the few errors in the rules as written which was carried into 1edADnD without correction. 

the monk was supposed to be a cleric class... d6
and the assassin a thief class... d4

they are listed in the same supplement on the same page swapped. monk d4, assassin d6.

i use the corrected form.


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## Nikosandros (Jan 13, 2009)

Obryn said:


> It is one of those areas where 1e is confusing and self-contradictory.  Still wonderful, but undeniably confusing and self-contradictory.



Actually, I think that the rule about range and area of effect is crystal clear. One might not like it very much, but it is clear.

It's a very gamist rule. In gives spells and missile weapons a decent range outdoors, while avoiding a practically infinite range indoors.


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## Nikosandros (Jan 13, 2009)

diaglo said:


> but i think that was one of the few errors in the rules as written which was carried into 1edADnD without correction.
> 
> the monk was supposed to be a cleric class... d6
> and the assassin a thief class... d4
> ...



I'm glad for the d6 for thieves. In AD&D thieves are already extremely weak and with d4 they would be IMHO awful.


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## diaglo (Jan 13, 2009)

Nikosandros said:


> I'm glad for the d6 for thieves. In AD&D thieves are already extremely weak and with d4 they would be IMHO awful.




oh, i didn't mean that. they adjusted hps for 1edADnD.
fighters d10
clerics d8
and thieves d6

i just meant they keep the poor monk in the wrong group... and stuck with d4... no wonder they didn't get much action. besides being very hard to qualify for the prereqs.


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## Obryn (Jan 13, 2009)

Nikosandros said:


> Actually, I think that the rule about range and area of effect is crystal clear. One might not like it very much, but it is clear.
> 
> It's a very gamist rule. In gives spells and missile weapons a decent range outdoors, while avoiding a practically infinite range indoors.



I was talking specifically about how range scales and AoE does not, and yet both use the same unit of measurement in the game.   I think it's fine that bows can go further outdoors; you can arc your shots a lot better, after all!

-O


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## ExploderWizard (Jan 13, 2009)

Obryn said:


> I was talking specifically about how range scales and AoE does not, and yet both use the same unit of measurement in the game.  I think it's fine that bows can go further outdoors; you can arc your shots a lot better, after all!
> 
> -O




Yes indeed. Fireballs too. Mortar fire FTW


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## S'mon (Jan 13, 2009)

In 1e, after I wiped out a high level PC's entire army of 150 or so men at arms with a fireball cast by a drow Wizard in a confined tunnel, I decided fireball was a bit overpowered.


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## TerraDave (Jan 13, 2009)

Nikosandros said:


> ...
> I must confess that in most AD&D games that I ran (including my very long campaign), I used a "non-expanding" fireball, 3e-style. Did anyone else ever do the same in AD&D?




Most AD&D campaigns I know of did.


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## Ahglock (Jan 14, 2009)

ExploderWizard said:


> Not really. I always enjoyed the volume aspect of fireball, the bouncing lightning bolts, and other quirky parts of magic use. These sorts of things, along with declaring spell use and rolled initiative each round helped keep casters from being quite so dominating in play. Once spells got super reliable and it became more difficult to disrupt casting in 3E, the power of spell use got a boost, which inspired a perceived need to tone down casters. Hackmaster has some really awesome fireball variants that I want to play with sometime.




I loved that stuff, it kept magic magical for me.  Once it got reliable it just became a tool.  I wont knock the benefits that can come with it, but I prefer slower and clunkier if I can have my cool.


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## Xris Robin (Jan 14, 2009)

The 4E Fireball is weaker, but it's not a career spell.  It's a 5th level Daily, and you'll likely replace it at a higher level.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jan 14, 2009)

It'd be cool to have bouncing lightning bolts for 3E, not so sure about larger fireballs that fill the entire spell....

One thing to remember about the 3E "weakening" of fireball (the cap was from 2E, as noted, so any weakenng was from outside factors like more hp): it's not the same as prior editions.  In 3E, you can maximize and/or empower that fireball, or cast DB Fireball at level 7 with a higher cap.  Or Quicken it and cast two in a round.  Or go out of core and add things like Energy Admixture.  The fireball's damage only stagnates if you do nothing to take advantage of being high level (ie, high level spell slots).  The hp increases are an issue, but for evocation as a whole.


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