# I have DMGII and Revenge of the Giants



## Jack99 (Sep 7, 2009)

Just picked them up at my interdimensional gaming store, in case anyone wants to ask questions. I hope getting some reading time later tonight.

Cheers


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## Mathew_Freeman (Sep 7, 2009)

Woo! What level spread is Against the Giants? And who's the Big Big Bad at the end?

Also - how does the number of Giants in play at one time compare to the number of available miniatures that Wizards have produced already?


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## AllisterH (Sep 7, 2009)

Jack99 said:


> Just picked them up at my interdimensional gaming store, in case anyone wants to ask questions. I hope getting some reading time later tonight.
> 
> Cheers




Ooohh...tell me about the DMG. The companion rules and how do you think they'll work and also what about the rules for not having magic items in your games (specifically, grandmaster and legendary boons)


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## Rechan (Sep 7, 2009)

Tell me about your pact with Asmodeus that gets you these books early.


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## Rechan (Sep 7, 2009)

AllisterH said:


> Ooohh...tell me about the DMG. The companion rules and how do you think they'll work



You know that they all ready did an excerpt on those, showing the system, right?


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## Fifth Element (Sep 7, 2009)

Rechan said:


> You know that they all ready did an excerpt on those, showing the system, right?



There was some question at the time as to whether the excerpt showed the entire system.


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## Rechan (Sep 7, 2009)

Does the DMG2:

1) Show any sort of formula as far as making powers and weighting the balance of status conditions? (Daze is worth two dice of damage etc etc). 

2) Anything on building/acquiring keeps or such?

3) Chapter 2 and the section on Encounters as Story - is there talk of objectives in combat beyond what we saw in the excerpt? Three paragraphs doesn't scratch the surface, imho.


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## AllisterH (Sep 7, 2009)

Rechan said:


> You know that they all ready did an excerpt on those, showing the system, right?




More like did they give an example of a companion?

Any thing else that jumps out at you?


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## Psikus (Sep 7, 2009)

Skill Challenges! How much did they change in the updated rules? Does the math finally make any sense?


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## GMforPowergamers (Sep 7, 2009)

I am really intreseted in both compainion NPCs and Boons/unusal magic item awards...I read both preview, but they held some stuff back (of cource) so what are they like...are there totaly awsome 'master trainng', and how complex are the charts for compainions...


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## AllisterH (Sep 7, 2009)

You know what...Here's my general question after you finish reading the entire book.

How useful is this book to you think to a new DM who started with the 4e DMG?

How useful is this book to you think to a DM who started DMing in previous editions but is a 4e DM now?


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## Vael (Sep 7, 2009)

Outside of expected class templates ... any good monster templates?


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## Fallen Seraph (Sep 7, 2009)

SIGIL!!!!!!!!!! That is all


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## Hawke (Sep 7, 2009)

Can we please make sure to Spoiler-tag the stuff from the adventure? I typically DM and want to get the juice on the DMG2, but one of my players has shown interest in DMing revenge of the giants, so I want to try to avoid anything that'd give me an unfair advantage. 

What would you see is the biggest surprise in the DMG2 after hearing some of the details in the exceprts and whatnot?


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## Holy Bovine (Sep 7, 2009)

I am very interested in the Revenge of the Giants adventure - how much is it hack n' slash vs. RP?  Good NPCs?  Roleplay encounters?  Also what is the largest fight in the adventure just going by number of creatures?


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## hailstop (Sep 7, 2009)

Can you give some info on the Rod of 7 Parts?


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## winndwalker (Sep 7, 2009)

I'm thinking of running Revenge of the Giants in my current campaign, but I don't want to take my party out of the setting I've established (kind of a Waterdeep-esque city).  I've been following the previews and I believe that the party headquarters is some kind of forgotten headquarters in the mountains.

My question is this: at first glance does it seem like it would difficult to run the adventure with a full, established city as the home base for the adventure, or is the forgotten bastion a key component in the adventure?

Any highlights of locales, cool battles, etc. you're willing to give will be much appreciated.


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## Shroomy (Sep 7, 2009)

I was just reading the thread about templates, so what templates are available in the DMG2.  Also, what artifacts besides the Rod of Seven Parts appears?  Finally, how is Sigil depicted?


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## Rechan (Sep 7, 2009)

So is Revenge of the Giants just wall to wall Giants, or is there any cool non-giant elements?


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## Starsunder (Sep 7, 2009)

Sigil!!!!!!!!!!!

That is all


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## Jack99 (Sep 7, 2009)

Mathew_Freeman said:


> Woo! What level spread is Against the Giants? And who's the Big Big Bad at the end?
> 
> Also - how does the number of Giants in play at one time compare to the number of available miniatures that Wizards have produced already?




I am not sure about the spread. Front and back cover says 12-17th level, but the first page says 12-18th - twice. So somewhere in that ballpark.

The big baddie is 



Spoiler



a weakened primordial called Piranoth (lvl 19 solo) and he doesn't come alone in the final fight. It looks like an interesting fight with fun terrain features and a skill challenge for an alternative method of defeating Piranoth.



As for the miniature thing, the book has the stats of 21 different giants included. I saw no relation between the existing miniatures and the composition of the combats.


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## Jack99 (Sep 7, 2009)

Rechan said:


> Tell me about your pact with Asmodeus that gets you these books early.



First rule of pacts, you do not talk about the pact!


Rechan said:


> Does the DMG2:
> 
> 1) Show any sort of formula as far as making powers and weighting the balance of status conditions? (Daze is worth two dice of damage etc etc).
> 
> ...



There is a couple of pages of examples about encounters as story. I see no trace of making powers or anything about building keeps.



AllisterH said:


> More like did they give an example of a companion?



Yes there is an example of a companion - a gnome! It is also correct that some things are missing from the preview. From a list of possible companions to a detailed "recipe" for creating companion characters


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## Rechan (Sep 7, 2009)

Sweeet.


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## Hawke (Sep 7, 2009)

Sweet! I'm hoping mine arrives on time as the Wednesday after release the players will need to take an NPC into combat and I'd love to use these rules... what info does the table contain (not the content, but the headings) other than level / hp / healing surges? Suggestions for #/amount of powers or is it driven more toward taking existing monsters rather than details about how to create classed NPCs (beyond what's presented in DMG1)


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## Jack99 (Sep 7, 2009)

Hawke said:


> Sweet! I'm hoping mine arrives on time as the Wednesday after release the players will need to take an NPC into combat and I'd love to use these rules... what info does the table contain (not the content, but the headings) other than level / hp / healing surges? Suggestions for #/amount of powers or is it driven more toward taking existing monsters rather than details about how to create classed NPCs (beyond what's presented in DMG1)



Basically you get both. Sort of. One table is a list of creatures that should fit well as companions, since their at-wills and encounter powers are roughly equal to players' at-wills and encounter powers. 

The other table (the one mentioned) just gives an overview of the 4 roles (controller, defender, striker and leader) and what HP, #surges, AC and defenses they should have.

Last but not least, there is also a bit more than a page covering the _crafting of a unique companion character_.


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## Jack99 (Sep 7, 2009)

Psikus said:


> Skill Challenges! How much did they change in the updated rules? Does the math finally make any sense?



Looks like the updated rules available for download @ wizards.com. So a bit too easy (IMO). Lots of good advice and great examples to improve your skill challenge-making.


hailstop said:


> Can you give some info on the Rod of 7 Parts?



When you have all 7 pieces, it's (amongst other things) a +7 mace! Poor elemental that gets critted by that. +7d10 damage 



Shroomy said:


> I was just reading the thread about templates, so what templates are available in the DMG2.  Also, what artifacts besides the Rod of Seven Parts appears?



*Templates*
Beast of Demogorgon
Champion of Bane
Chaos Warrior
Cursed Guardian
Dragontouched Warrior
Grizzled Veteran
Hellbound Soldier
Mad Alchemist
Slithering Idol
Spectral Assassin
Spiderblessed Spinner
Terrifying Haunt
Victim of the Mad Dance

*Artifacts*
Adamantine Horse of Xarn
Amulet of Passage
Cup and Talisman of Al'Akbar
Emblem of Ossandrya
Rash and Reckless
Rod of Seven Parts
Standard of Eternal Battle


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## Jack99 (Sep 7, 2009)

Regarding Sigil:

We get about 15 pages worth of information of post-faction war Sigil. From a quick look, it seems business as usual (but I must admit that it has been a while since I played D&D in Sigil, so some things could easily have been changed without me noticing it), without the factions of course. 

First there is some general info about the city, what it looks like and how it "feels", architecture, fauna (razorwine), the Lady and her Dabus and of course the portals. 

Then the wards are described in greater detail along with a map of the city. The chapter ends with a two-page spread called Faces of Sigil, where you get a short overview of 20-ish NPC's of Sigil (And yes Shemeshka, your alter ego does get a mention). 

After that we get a couple of standard encounters, one for the streets and one for the sewers of Sigil. 

We also get a couple of pages about the various Gate-towns. 

After that, there is a short (5 encounter) paragon-level adventure that takes you on a trip around Sigil, Tradegate and the Shadowfell.

Overall, it's just like everything else setting-wise released for 4e from WotC. It's a framework, and as a DM, you need to flesh it out and make it your own. Some will hate it, some will love it. I do not see how more can be expected, considering it is not a full setting, but merely a part of the DMGII - but I am sure some will disagree with me.


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## Shroomy (Sep 7, 2009)

How do the gate-towns work in 4e without the Outlands or the Great Wheel?  Also, do we get stats for any NPCs in Sigil and are there any monsters (such as the dabus)?

Also, any new monsters in the _Revenge of the Giants_?


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## Cadfan (Sep 7, 2009)

Can you estimate how much of the DMG II will be material that by its nature will not make it into the Compendium or into any electronic tools?  That's the biggest determinant of whether I buy it.


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## Jack99 (Sep 7, 2009)

Argh, just did a huge writeup of Revenge, and I accidentally hit the backspace button..

Will retype tomorrow, when I have the time.



> Can you estimate how much of the DMG II will be material that by its nature will not make it into the Compendium or into any electronic tools? That's the biggest determinant of whether I buy it.




Hard to say. I doubt any of the first 62 pages will make it into the compendium. After that, maybe 30-40% of the rest of the book will be in the compendium. 



> How do the gate-towns work in 4e without the Outlands or the Great Wheel?



Gatetowns can be anywhere, and they are basically towns built up around the gate to a certain place. Due to seeping planar energy, the gate-town and surroundings "takes after" (to varying degree) the place where the portal leads.



> Also, do we get stats for any NPCs in Sigil and are there any monsters (such as the dabus)?



2 Dabus', 2 Sons of Mercy and the Kadyx, a level 21 solo Demon War Drake.


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## gribble (Sep 8, 2009)

Jack99 said:


> Gatetowns can be anywhere, and they are basically towns built up around the gate to a certain place. Due to seeping planar energy, the gate-town and surroundings "takes after" (to varying degree) the place where the portal leads.



Nice. Seems fairly compatible with 2e Planescape fluff.


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## Mouseferatu (Sep 8, 2009)

Okay, I'm about to get tarred and feathered by the Planescape crowd , but...

Did they get rid of that ridiculous idea of the dabus communicating only in visual rebuses? Of all the goofy details of all the settings back to the earliest days of D&D, I think that was one of the ones that I absolutely hated the most. It made it absolutely impossible for me to take the dabus seriously, and it actually damaged the entire Planescape setting in my mind. I really find the idea _that_ stupid.

To this day, I won't play in a game where the DM insists on including dabus unless he drops that aspect, because it ruins the immersion _that thoroughly_ for me. (Fortunately, it's never come up.)


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## Elbeghast (Sep 8, 2009)

Mouseferatu said:


> Okay, I'm about to get tarred and feathered by the Planescape crowd , but...
> (...) I really find the idea _that_ stupid.
> 
> To this day, I won't play in a game where the DM insists on including dabus unless he drops that aspect, because it ruins the immersion _that thoroughly_ for me. (Fortunately, it's never come up.)



That bad of a challenge to your suspension of disbelief, heh? 

I like the idea of the dabus, personally.


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## Mouseferatu (Sep 8, 2009)

Elbeghast said:


> That bad of a challenge to your suspension of disbelief, heh?




'fraid so. And I can deal with some truly out-there, wacky stuff in my gaming fantasy. It's just that, for me, the dabus fall smack dab into that area where I find something both _so_ stupid in concept and _so_ nonsensical even in the most wahoo fantasy that it completely takes me out of the game (or book, or whatever).


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## hailstop (Sep 8, 2009)

Jack99 said:


> Looks like the updated rules available for download @ wizards.com. So a bit too easy (IMO). Lots of good advice and great examples to improve your skill challenge-making.
> 
> When you have all 7 pieces, it's (amongst other things) a +7 mace! Poor elemental that gets critted by that. +7d10 damage




So does each piece have it's own power?  Does the Rod have a personality that develops as it's put together or does it not have one at all?


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## Quickleaf (Sep 8, 2009)

What sort of traps and hazards are in the DMG 2?


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## frankthedm (Sep 8, 2009)

Mouseferatu said:


> 'fraid so. And I can deal with some truly out-there, wacky stuff in my gaming fantasy. It's just that, for me, the dabus fall smack dab into that area where I find something both _so_ stupid in concept and _so_ nonsensical even in the most wahoo fantasy that it completely takes me out of the game (or book, or whatever).



I think the Dabus would fit well into a setting with Terry Pratchett style irreverence,


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## gribble (Sep 8, 2009)

Mouseferatu said:


> Did they get rid of that ridiculous idea of the dabus communicating only in visual rebuses? Of all the goofy details of all the settings back to the earliest days of D&D, I think that was one of the ones that I absolutely hated the most.



As much as I loved PS, I kind of have to agree. It's not that I hated the *idea *as much as you obviously did, more that often the implementation used rebuses that contained "modern" visual clues, which I often found kind of jarring. 

I guess they had to in order to communicate with a modern audience, but I did find that it would jar me out of the fantasy vibe a bit.


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## Rechan (Sep 8, 2009)

Okay, can someone explain what a Dabus is and what Mouse is going on about?


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## MerricB (Sep 8, 2009)

Rechan said:


> Okay, can someone explain what a Dabus is and what Mouse is going on about?




Dabus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Rebus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I never really investigated Planescape, but I agree entirely with Mouse - especially as it's an idea that fails utterly at the game table. You ask the Dabus a question. What is the DM doing? Trying to draw a rebus to reply with? Huh?

Cheers!


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## malraux (Sep 8, 2009)

Rechan said:


> Okay, can someone explain what a Dabus is and what Mouse is going on about?




The Dabus are the entourage of the Lady of Pain.  They go throughout the city and do as the Lady wants.  They can be found repairing the city or fighting back the razorvine.  Interestingly, they always float.  They always speak via rebuses rather than speech.


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## Rechan (Sep 8, 2009)

malraux said:


> The Dabus are the entourage of the Lady of Pain.  They go throughout the city and do as the Lady wants.  They can be found repairing the city or fighting back the razorvine.  Interestingly, they always float.  They always speak via rebuses rather than speech.



*looks up Rebus*

Yeah, I can see why Mouse has issue. I can see that in a Pratchet book, or as a funny character in a comedy comic, but not in any sort of game I can take at all serious.


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## Cadfan (Sep 8, 2009)

I always thought the Dabus were a cool idea that would work just fine if they spoke in pictures instead of rebuses.


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## Rechan (Sep 8, 2009)

Cadfan said:


> I always thought the Dabus were a cool idea that would work just fine if they spoke in pictures instead of rebuses.



Maybe a mental image projected into your head. Or an illusion to get an idea across. 

Funnily, this reminds me of aliens from Mass Effect. Their major communication is via body language and pheromones. Since most other species can't understand that, the race's speech consists of "[Word for emotion] [Monotone voice]" Such as "Discomfort. Do you think we will be here long?"


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## Baumi (Sep 8, 2009)

Is the NPC Generation expanded with the post-PHB 1 Classes?


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## Jack99 (Sep 8, 2009)

Suspence regarding the Dabus is killing me too.. Unfortunately, I am still at work and have no access to the books


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## CapnZapp (Sep 8, 2009)

Rechan said:


> Does the DMG2:
> 
> 1) Show any sort of formula as far as making powers and weighting the balance of status conditions? (Daze is worth two dice of damage etc etc).






Jack99 said:


> I see no trace of making powers




Spamming us with ready-made powers is a big part of what earns WotC money, so I am not surprised.


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## vagabundo (Sep 8, 2009)

Jack99 said:


> Suspence regarding the Dabus is killing me too.. Unfortunately, I am still at work and have no access to the books




You don't look well. You might need to pull a sickie.


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## avin (Sep 8, 2009)

Mouseferatu said:


> Did they get rid of that ridiculous idea of the dabus communicating only in visual rebuses?




Bring the torches! 

The rebus, I think, were created to pass the idea of distance between Lady of Pain and Sigil people. 

Lady of Pain never talks.
Dabus act in her name. 
Dabus use symbols to communicate, amplifying the distance effect of communication.

You can always rule that Dabus use telepatic communication, not with phrases, but sending ideas/images that form phrases on your mind.

Now buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!!!!!!!!!!111


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## avin (Sep 8, 2009)

Rechan said:


> *looks up Rebus*
> 
> Yeah, I can see why Mouse has issue. I can see that in a Pratchet book, or as a funny character in a comedy comic, but not in any sort of game I can take at all serious.




Haven't played Planescape: Torment, right?


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## Dragonhelm (Sep 8, 2009)

MerricB said:


> Dabus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Rebus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> I never really investigated Planescape, but I agree entirely with Mouse - especially as it's an idea that fails utterly at the game table. You ask the Dabus a question. What is the DM doing? Trying to draw a rebus to reply with? Huh?
> ...




Yeah, and for we DMs with no artistic talent to speak of, that's doubly-hard.  

I kind of like the idea of the one Dabus named Fell running a tattoo parlor, but that's about it.  Even at that, I can't see anyone doing business with one unless they're easily understood.  Maybe they had to learn common as a secondary language?


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## Klaus (Sep 8, 2009)

When I DMed Planescape back in the days of Skills & Powers, I had the dabus comunicate through "visual telepathy" (you didn't get a voice in your head, you got flashing images).


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## Nahat Anoj (Sep 8, 2009)

Would you mind sharing more about the Rod of Seven Parts?  It's the big MacGuffin for my current 4e game, and I was wondering what level it was.  A +7 enhancement bonus might put the assembled Rod just a wee bit outside my current Paragon tier campaign...


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## Jack99 (Sep 8, 2009)

Just home for a few minutes before heading out again...




			
				DMGII said:
			
		

> When a Dabus needs to communicate with someone, it does so with gestures and sign language, and occasionally in form of a Rebus.




I guess that covers both the lovers and the haters 


Re: the rod of seven parts - it's heroic to epic level.

Basically, it's an implement (rod), +1 per segment. 1d6/+ crit, 1d10 vs elementals.

It has a few properties. One target of any healing power can roll a saving throw and +1 item bonus/segment to diplomacy, intimidate and religion.
It's only when the 7 parts are together that you can use it as a +7 mace.


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## Obryn (Sep 8, 2009)

Mouseferatu said:


> Did they get rid of that ridiculous idea of the dabus communicating only in visual rebuses? Of all the goofy details of all the settings back to the earliest days of D&D, I think that was one of the ones that I absolutely hated the most.



I couldn't agree more.  It was one of the more ridiculous elements of the setting, IMO, and it really threw me for a loop while running Expedition to the Demonweb Pits.

I don't care the reason - whatever the reason, there are better ways to do it.  If the point is that they're remote, then make them remote in other ways.  Rebuses aren't remote and mysterious.  Rebuses are silly games played in elementary school.

EDIT:


> When a Dabus needs to communicate with someone, it does so with gestures and sign language, and occasionally in form of a Rebus.



_Great._ Now they play _charades_, too. 

Well, at least that's easier from a DM standpoint...  Still...

-O


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## hailstop (Sep 8, 2009)

Jack99 said:


> Just home for a few minutes before heading out again...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Does it come across as having a personality or is it just a dumb artifact?


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## BlightCrawler (Sep 8, 2009)

Jack99 said:


> Just picked them up at my interdimensional gaming store, in case anyone wants to ask questions. I hope getting some reading time later tonight.




Is the Giants book a boxset or a single hard cover?


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## w_earle_wheeler (Sep 8, 2009)

Does the Revenge of the Giants book use the standard 4e encounter display -- two page spread with a mini-map and stat blocks?

Is there a pull-out map in the book?

Are there any note on running the adventure in the beginning, especially the use of dungeon tiles to match the encounters (as was done in Dungeon Delve)?


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## winndwalker (Sep 9, 2009)

w_earle_wheeler said:


> Are there any note on running the adventure in the beginning, especially the use of dungeon tiles to match the encounters (as was done in Dungeon Delve)?




I really liked that about Dungeon Delve, but I found it to be restricting in a way.  I'd start digging for the exact tiles rather than just stay with the spirit of the encounter, make sure I had the same or similar terrain features, and go with it.  It makes sense and it's a nice way to tie two of their products together, but I'd say it's a limiting design element.


Anyway, I also had a question about the artwork in Revenge of the Giants.  I really like how they've been including sets of pictures separate from the rest of the module in the first adventure path and things like Seekers of Ashen Crown.  Is there a section in the book with a bunch of highlight images?


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## Jack99 (Sep 9, 2009)

BlightCrawler said:


> Is the Giants book a boxset or a single hard cover?



Hardcover, 160 pages.



w_earle_wheeler said:


> Does the Revenge of the Giants book use the standard 4e encounter display -- two page spread with a mini-map and stat blocks?
> 
> Is there a pull-out map in the book?
> 
> Are there any note on running the adventure in the beginning, especially the use of dungeon tiles to match the encounters (as was done in Dungeon Delve)?



RotG is exactly like all the other WotC adventures. Just put together in a hardback and with the map attached to the back cover.



winndwalker said:


> Anyway, I also had a question about the artwork in Revenge of the Giants.  I really like how they've been including sets of pictures separate from the rest of the module in the first adventure path and things like Seekers of Ashen Crown.  Is there a section in the book with a bunch of highlight images?



I must be failing at English. What is highlight images?


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## winndwalker (Sep 9, 2009)

Jack99 said:


> I must be failing at English. What is highlight images?




Artwork that shows some of the more interesting battles.  In the other 4e adventures they have this all in one section.  Thanks


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## jensun (Sep 9, 2009)

Jack99 said:


> Hardcover, 160 pages.
> 
> RotG is exactly like all the other WotC adventures. Just put together in a hardback and with the map attached to the back cover.
> 
> I must be failing at English. What is highlight images?



Is there only a single poster map?


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## Baumi (Sep 9, 2009)

I feel sooo ignored... But I'm too stubborn not to ask again (and hopefully in a clearer fashion): 

The Original DMG had Class-Templates for NPC Design on page 188... did the DMG 2 expand on these (Templates for all the Post-PHB1 Classes)?


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## Falstaff (Sep 9, 2009)

What? No box set?! That really sucks. Their web page says box set and I was really looking forward to that. Why they would leave the product page as saying box set when it isn't is beyond me.

Revenge of the Giants


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## Festivus (Sep 9, 2009)

Falstaff said:


> What? No box set?! That really sucks. Their web page says box set and I was really looking forward to that. Why they would leave the product page as saying box set when it isn't is beyond me.
> 
> Revenge of the Giants




My interest suddenly dropped when I read this too.  I was hoping for a box with counters, perhaps a single map or some custom dungeon tiles, and the adventure book split in two parts... the adventure and the fluff.  Oh well.


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## The_Fan (Sep 9, 2009)

Baumi said:


> I feel sooo ignored... But I'm too stubborn not to ask again (and hopefully in a clearer fashion):
> 
> The Original DMG had Class-Templates for NPC Design on page 188... did the DMG 2 expand on these (Templates for all the Post-PHB1 Classes)?




I can help with this. It was already answered in one of the previews, but it's easy to miss. All the PHB2 classes will get class templates, but unfortunately there won't be one for the Artificer (AFAIK).


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## Kobold Avenger (Sep 9, 2009)

Who are the Faces of Sigil in the book?

What are some examples of Legendary Boons and Grandmaster Boons?  What would you get if you learned from a reclusive Kung Fu master for example?

How does magic item components as rewards work?  Is it more codified such as "fire pearls + obsidian tree branch = staff of ruin" or is it more loosely defined such as "these elemental gems count as 5000 GP for your next magic weapon or implement"?


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## Falstaff (Sep 9, 2009)

Festivus said:


> My interest suddenly dropped when I read this too.  I was hoping for a box with counters, perhaps a single map or some custom dungeon tiles, and the adventure book split in two parts... the adventure and the fluff.  Oh well.




Yeah, mine too, and the annoying thing is that Wizards won't explain to us why this change was made or why their web page still lists it as a boxed set. I'm about to call my local game shop and cancel my order for this adventure.


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## Saracenus (Sep 9, 2009)

Falstaff said:


> Yeah, mine too, and the annoying thing is that Wizards won't explain to us why this change was made or why their web page still lists it as a boxed set. I'm about to call my local game shop and cancel my order for this adventure.




I can tell you why on both counts (and I don't work for WotC either):

1) Box sets cost extra money to make. Not only do you have to pay for the manufacturing materials (which usually are diverse: plastic, paper, card board) but you also have to pay to have the materials collated and put into the box. This will include having to ship parts manufactured somewhere else (dice, minis, etc.) to your final packaging plant. 

In the end, while cool, box sets are money losers because you can't keep the price point down to get enough buyers to justify the cost. The box will come at a higher price and suppress the number of buyers who would purchase making your production run smaller jacking the price up. Vicious cycle. 

A book with a map insert can be done in a single location and is pretty much an automated process at the printer. The costs can be contained and a price point can be met.

2) Simply put for the product listing question. Someone goofed and didn't change the original listing which was going to be a box set. Those of us who read the previews on the Wizard's site for Revenge of the Giants already knew the box set DOA.

My two coppers,


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## Nebulous (Sep 9, 2009)

I'd like to hear more about RotG. Of those 21 giants types listed, are they just slight variations are some really interesting new monster mechanics added?


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## Saracenus (Sep 9, 2009)

Nebulous said:


> I'd like to hear more about RotG. Of those 21 giants types listed, are they just slight variations are some really interesting new monster mechanics added?




I got my copy for judging RPGA gaming at PAX 2009 this weekend and I have only glanced through it so I don't have an answer on that, yet.

I will say I liked the skill challenges they put in the mod. I like the use of the group skill check mechanic. Of course I will have more to say on skill challenges once I run these in real conditions.

When I get home from work I will take a look at the statblocks to see if there are any interesting mechanics but I am not really psyched about spoiling new abilities to those that might play it.


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## Hawke (Sep 9, 2009)

Is RotG setup like adventures (I think the last one I read thoroughly was in the H series) where it's chronological mix of story elements and encounters.... 

or is it setup like Dungeon where it's all the story elements (including the conclusion) and then it lists all the encounters - i.e. lots of flipping. I think it might've been answered, but I wanted to be clearer. Thanks for the help so far! So close to owning it!


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## Jack99 (Sep 10, 2009)

At a convention atm with only my phone for inet access. Back on friday and will answer then.


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## Baumi (Sep 10, 2009)

The_Fan said:


> I can help with this. It was already answered in one of the previews, but it's easy to miss. All the PHB2 classes will get class templates, but unfortunately there won't be one for the Artificer (AFAIK).




THX!


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## Walking Dad (Sep 10, 2009)

What about the alternate rewards. any rules for using less magic items? How much terrain (like the chandelier in the excerpt)?


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## Saracenus (Sep 10, 2009)

Hawke said:


> Is RotG setup like adventures (I think the last one I read thoroughly was in the H series) where it's chronological mix of story elements and encounters....




Yes, it is laid out like published adventures H, P, and E in "order." However, the players have the choice to do some of the encounters out of order so you might be flipping through the book anyway.


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## Saracenus (Sep 10, 2009)

About the Giants in RotG.

In the New Monsters section:


There are 2 new giant "races." The first has 4 statblocks and the second 3 for the other.
There are 4 new hill giant statblocks.
There are 5 new fire giant statblocks.
There are 5 new frost giant statblocks.
A Primordial.
A new monster with 3 representative statblocks.
There are other new statblocks sprinkled throughout the adventure.

Yes there is variety and a few surprises.

In all I can't wait to have them in the next Adventure Tools: Monster Builder Beta to play around with.


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## Shroomy (Sep 10, 2009)

Saracenus said:


> About the Giants in RotG.
> 
> In the New Monsters section:
> 
> ...




What are the two new varities of giants?  I'm trying to think of the ones that are missing (Ocean, Sand, and Forest come to mind).


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## malraux (Sep 10, 2009)

What is the implied setting for RotG?  Is it transferable to Eberron?


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## Rechan (Sep 10, 2009)

I'm also curious what the new monster is.


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## kilamanjaro (Sep 10, 2009)

Shroomy said:


> What are the two new varities of giants?  I'm trying to think of the ones that are missing (Ocean, Sand, and Forest come to mind).




Eldritch, Shadow, Bog, Sea, Sun, Mountain, Jungle, Fog, Cloud...
I think one of the previews for this on WotC's site mentioned Astral Giants being in the adventure.


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## Rechan (Sep 10, 2009)

kilamanjaro said:


> Eldritch, Shadow, Bog, Sea, Sun, Mountain, Jungle, Fog, Cloud...



Eldritch giants are in MM2.


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## Jack99 (Sep 10, 2009)

Yay, found some Internet access at the convention!



hailstop said:


> Does it come across as having a personality or is it just a dumb artifact?



Just like other artifacts in 4e, the rod has intelligence and purpose. Its goals are to get reunited with the other parts, to establish the divine rule of law in the universe, taming the elemental chaos and nuking any primordials still in orbit. And of course find and kill Miska the Wolf Spider.



winndwalker said:


> Anyway, I also had a question about the artwork in Revenge of the Giants.  I really like how they've been including sets of pictures separate from the rest of the module in the first adventure path and things like Seekers of Ashen Crown.  Is there a section in the book with a bunch of highlight images?



Not that I have seen



jensun said:


> Is there only a single poster map?



Yes. Double sided though.



Kobold Avenger said:


> Who are the Faces of Sigil in the book?



Adamok Ebon, A'kin, Alluvius Ruskin, Arwyl Swan's Son, Autochon the Bellringer, Balthazaar Thames, Black Marian, Caravan, Estavan, Fell (the rogue Dabus), Kesto Brighteyes, Kylie, Lissandra the Gate-Seeker, Lothar the Old, Ramander the Wise, Rhys, Rule-of-Three, Shemeshka the Marauder, Tattershade (King of Rats), The Us, Vocar the Disobedient and Zadara.



> What are some examples of Legendary Boons and Grandmaster Boons?  What would you get if you learned from a reclusive Kung Fu master for example?



Legendary Boons: Book of 5 Truths; Ancient scrolls from the dawn of times that grant insight when reading (paraphrased) - The Third Truth (lvl 18, 85.000 gp) Property: When performing a ritual, roll twice and take the better result.
Grandmaster Boon: Davros Elden's Hasty Resurgence (lvl 9, 4200 gp) Power daily: Minor Action. Use this power when you are bloodied to gain temporary hit points equal to your healing surge value.



> How does magic item components as rewards work?  Is it more codified such as "fire pearls + obsidian tree branch = staff of ruin" or is it more loosely defined such as "these elemental gems count as 5000 GP for your next magic weapon or implement"?



More loosely defined. Basically: Divide into 3 components (one for starting, one for progressing, one for finishing). Then assign category depending on campaign, ideas for categories could be: Harvest ingredients, help an NPC, Forbidden sites. Then "place" the 3 "item parts". After that decide how they will "find" the parts. Could be part of a search, or as part of treasure parcel. Finish by deciding how to make the item. A skill challenge is suggested.




Nebulous said:


> I'd like to hear more about RotG. Of those 21 giants types listed, are they just slight variations are some really interesting new monster mechanics added?



The Giants have a few new powers, but I am not sure I would go as far as call it new mechanics.



Hawke said:


> Is RotG setup like adventures (I think the last one I read thoroughly was in the H series) where it's chronological mix of story elements and encounters....
> 
> or is it setup like Dungeon where it's all the story elements (including the conclusion) and then it lists all the encounters - i.e. lots of flipping. I think it might've been answered, but I wanted to be clearer. Thanks for the help so far! So close to owning it!



As the HPE-series. But far more freeform, as in there are quite a lot of things the players can do when they choose to, not when dictated.


Walking Dad said:


> What about the alternate rewards. any rules for using less magic items? How much terrain (like the chandelier in the excerpt)?



There are 7 examples of terrain powers. And yes, there are suggestions for rules for using less magic items.


Shroomy said:


> What are the two new varities of giants?  I'm trying to think of the ones that are missing (Ocean, Sand, and Forest come to mind).



-->



Spoiler



Astral Giant. If there was another I must have missed it.





malraux said:


> What is the implied setting for RotG?  Is it transferable to Eberron?



4e PoL setting. Nerath and Nethir Vale is mentioned. Should be fairly easy to move to just about anywhere.


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## Jack99 (Sep 10, 2009)

Overall on Revenge of the Giants
-->



Spoiler



It looks to be a fairly interesting adventure. Soon after starting, the players have a lot of options of what they want to do. What they do and how they succeed will determine how the world around them cope with the giant armies (via a simple point system, much like the one in RHoD). There is of course a good deal of combat, but a lot of the "missions" are research and acquisition instead of just "go to that dungeon and clear it out". There is also seems to be a lot (read: far more than in any other wotc module) skill challenges (or pure RP encounters, if that's your thing) to determine how the story unfolds. I haven't had time to study pacing and balance of encounters, but if they check out, this could very well be the best WotC adventure to date. Unless you do not like giants of course. Then it will suck. Of course, a more thorough read-through is required before I can vouch for that, and I must admit that I do not have the time for that atm. I do really like how the big final battle has two "solutions", one being the straight out combat, the other being using a special artifact to kill the boss (via a skill challenge) after he is bloodied. Nothing revolutionary, but it looks good on paper.


<--

Overall on the DMG
Wow! I wish I had this book when I started DM'ing. While I love my old 1e DMG, I must admit that the 4e versions have impressed me with advice on how to be a good DM. The first was fairly simple, but very good for the new DM. The second iteration of the book definitely ups the game and I think that most DM's should be able to find a lot of advice in here that they can use to improve their game. Even those who have been DM'ing for decades. Sure, maybe some of all of it has been discussed to some degree at some point in some thread on ENworld, but that doesn't mean that everyone has read and bookmarked said thread.

I think I have covered most questions by now, if not, please restate it, because it means that I have missed it. I have no one on ignore.


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## hailstop (Sep 10, 2009)

malraux said:


> What is the implied setting for RotG? Is it transferable to Eberron?




I don't have RotG, but just looking at the excerpts, I'm not sure how well it'll fit, although Stormreach I would think would be the 'city' in jeopardy.


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## Cadfan (Sep 10, 2009)

Jack99 said:


> I think I have covered most questions by now, if not, please restate it, because it means that I have missed it. I have no one on ignore.



Do you think that the DMG II has significant value for someone who already has a DDI subscription and is willing to mine the compendium and online tools for crunch material?  Just a guess is fine if its not clear what from it will be placed online.


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## Rechan (Sep 10, 2009)

Cadfan said:


> Do you think that the DMG II has significant value for someone who already has a DDI subscription and is willing to mine the compendium and online tools for crunch material?  Just a guess is fine if its not clear what from it will be placed online.



He addressed that on page 2:


> Hard to say. I doubt any of the first 62 pages will make it into the compendium. After that, maybe 30-40% of the rest of the book will be in the compendium.


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## Jack99 (Sep 10, 2009)

Double post


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## Jack99 (Sep 10, 2009)

Rechan said:


> He addressed that on page 2:




Aye, but just to be clear. I definitely think it would be worthwhile, simply due to the amount of information, structures and ideas on how to improve and understand your game sessions. While I can't say for sure, I am pretty sure that none of those will be in the compendium.


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## MichaelSomething (Sep 11, 2009)

I have a question. Why do the Giants want revenage in the first place? It's as if a bunch of strangers waltzed into their homes, killed their kin, and robbed them blind!


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## Saracenus (Sep 11, 2009)

malraux said:


> What is the implied setting for RotG?  Is it transferable to Eberron?




If the product doesn't say Eberron or Forgotten Realms (or Dark Sun next year) explicitly then the assumed setting is The World discussed in the DMG1.

I wouldn't worry too much, I will bet there will be a full conversion to both on the website much like H1 and H2 had. Even if they don't convert it shouldn't be too hard to convert it.


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## avin (Sep 11, 2009)

Jack, how good is Sigil map compared to former versions of it? 

Is it detailed?

You can see places such as the Mortuary in it?


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## Jack99 (Sep 11, 2009)

avin said:


> Jack, how good is Sigil map compared to former versions of it?
> 
> Is it detailed?
> 
> You can see places such as the Mortuary in it?




It's a full page map, so if you compare it to the huge poster map from the 2e box, you will obviously be disappointed. Most of the names on the map are districts, but you can see some of the big buildings, including the mortuary if my memory of the original map serves me right. It's not something that will wow you however.


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## Shemeska (Sep 11, 2009)

Mouseferatu said:


> Okay, I'm about to get tarred and feathered by the Planescape crowd , but...




I'm out of feathers, but how about tar, vrock spores, and razorvine? 

Rebuses were a cool, albeit very quirky idea. But they gave Sigil more unique character, even if it was something that probably most DMs handwaved to some degree rather than actually making up visual puzzles to show at the table (though anyone that did was awesome).

But for folks who find it a bit too odd or quirky, play Torment. Seriously. You'll look at them differently afterwards: not so much quirky as alien, distant, not fitting in and jarring at times as a result if you interact with them heavily. They bleed some of that unsettling atmosphere that The Lady has.


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## Shemeska (Sep 12, 2009)

Jack99 said:


> Adamok Ebon, A'kin, Alluvius Ruskin, Arwyl Swan's Son, Autochon the Bellringer, Balthazaar Thames, Black Marian, Caravan, Estavan, Fell (the rogue Dabus), Kesto Brighteyes, Kylie, Lissandra the Gate-Seeker, Lothar the Old, Ramander the Wise, Rhys, Rule-of-Three, Shemeshka the Marauder, Tattershade (King of Rats), The Us, Vocar the Disobedient and Zadara.




I'm pleasantly surprised. Somebody did their background reading there, because some of those names are semi-obscure or never appeared in 3e material.

So questions:
Any of them get illustrations? And what illustrations does the Sigil chapter get beyond the one map?

Starting with the 'loths: what is said about A'kin and Shemmy?
The potential 'loth-spawn: Kylie?
Those working for the 'loths: Adamok Ebon, Autochon the Bellringer, Ramander?

Any mention of former Faction bigs and what they're up to in the current political climate? And who sits on the Sigil Advisory Council?


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## Mouseferatu (Sep 12, 2009)

Shemeska said:


> Rebuses were a cool, albeit very quirky idea. ... But for folks who find it a bit too odd or quirky...




You misunderstand. I don't find them too "odd or quirky." I can deal with "odd or quirky."

I found the concept _flat-out stupid_. Playing Torment won't change my mind, any more than eating exceptionally well cooked spinach will change the fact that I hate spinach. It's one of those things--like the sparkling vampires in _Twilight_--that I find unappealing on a _fundamental, conceptual_ level.


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## Crothian (Sep 12, 2009)

Shemeska said:


> Any of them get illustrations? And what illustrations does the Sigil chapter get beyond the one map?




3 in the whole section.  I am very disappointed in the art.  



> Starting with the 'loths: what is said about A'kin and Shemmy?
> The potential 'loth-spawn: Kylie?




A'kin: friendly, polite, knows lots of secrets.  
Shem: King of the Cross-trade, one of the most feared, hated, and powerful creatures in Sigil
Worked for Autochon, now runs own gang


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## avin (Sep 12, 2009)

Mouseferatu said:


> You misunderstand. I don't find them too "odd or quirky." I can deal with "odd or quirky."
> 
> I found the concept _flat-out stupid_. Playing Torment won't change my mind, any more than eating exceptionally well cooked spinach will change the fact that I hate spinach. It's one of those things--like the sparkling vampires in _Twilight_--that I find unappealing on a _fundamental, conceptual_ level.




I wouldn't say stupid. Maybe Lady of Pain wish to keep communication with Dabus distant, well at least until the Faction War.

I don't use rebus too.. but I think you should give Torment a chance... you won't regret, it's not like spinach


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## Jack99 (Sep 12, 2009)

Shemeska said:


> Any of them get illustrations? And what illustrations does the Sigil chapter get beyond the one map?



None of the faces. Sigil only gets the map, one picture of a dragonborn where you can see the city above him and finally one of the entrance to The Great Foundry (I think). Kinda sad.



> Starting with the 'loths: what is said about A'kin and Shemmy?



A'kin is a raavasta and owner of the Friendly Fiend, an exceptional magic trinket shop. He seems to know a lot of secrets.

Shemmy's range of knowledge is only matched by her vicious temper. She is the most prominent chant-broker in Sigil, a position gained via a huge network of spies. She ensures that the power players of Sigil rely on her. She controls several powerful characters by having ensured their debt, such as Autochon the Bellringer and Ramander the Wise. Due to all these things, she is the most hated, feared and powerful creatures in the Cage.



> The potential 'loth-spawn: Kylie?



Kylie is a tiefling that worked for Autochon, but when she quit and he (it?) wanted to kill her, Shemmy stepped in and forbade her killing. She now runs her own gang of couriers.



> Those working for the 'loths: Adamok Ebon, Autochon the Bellringer, Ramander?



Ramander: Master of Portals. He buys land with portals or extorts those that own it until he pays Ramander big fees.

Adamaok: Bladeling hunter and assassin, sometimes work for Shemmy.

Autochon: Master of Couriers. Controls most messages that are passed between the residents of the Cage. He uses magically enchanted couriers to ensure that only the one supposed to gets the message. He is also rumored to have a deal with the Temple of the Abyss.

All the above covers most mentioned, but paraphrased (to varying degree).



> Any mention of former Faction bigs and what they're up to in the current political climate? And who sits on the Sigil Advisory Council?



Council has 9 seats, but only one is mentioned. Rhys, former leader of the Transcendent Order. 

Other power players mentioned are the Sons of Mercy (led by Swan's son), the Mutual Trade Association, run by Shemmy, Estavan (oni mage) and Zadara (storm giant).


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