# A proper skill-monkey



## Tomalak (Jan 19, 2010)

I have an opportunity to play a concept I've long wanted to use, but I'm not sure how to best go about it.  I'm familiar with the basic rational for bard & rogue, but is there another way to do this?  I've been out of 3.x play for a while, and was never as familiar with 3.5 as I was with 3.0  So any advice/ideas would be appreciated.  Here's what I need:

I'm planning an Int/Cha skill monkey.  I'm going to need at least twelve skills (All the social and several craft and knowledge), and the character is built @ level 5.  Combat effectiveness is a plus, but very low priority.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jan 19, 2010)

I played a high-Int Rgr/Diviner/(other classes) who had almost as many skill points as the party "legitimate businessman" and nearly as many class skills to work with...though most of them were KSs.

For what he did, he was pretty much tops or as good as anyone else.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jan 19, 2010)

There are a few options.  First of all, if you need to have 12 skills at max rank from level 1 on, Rogue is the only 8 +int skill class I know of that gets the social skills you probably need.  I don't know of any means of getting +4 int by race/template to cover a 6+int class, at least not ones that wouldn't have an awful ECL.  If it's ok to start with 6+ int skills and just crank up your int score, and you don't want Rogue, here are other options:

Bard
Pros: Large cha and social basis, with music and spells to bolster this.
Cons: Other than bardic knowledge, not much use for a very high int score.  Raising int above cha to make up for skill points would be slightly suboptimal.

Factotem (Dungeonscape)
Pros: Only class that gets every skill as a class skill.  Benefits heavily from a high int, arguably as much as a wizard does.  Class features tend to be "add int to x."  High int also allows you to take Font of Inspiration feat more frequently, a chain feat as important to the Factotem as Natural Spell is to Druids.
Cons: Only real con is not much cha-basis.  Aside from taking cha skills and makingi t an important stat, it's almost a dump stat for the class (even wisdom affects opportunistic piety, at least).

Beguiler (PH2)
Pros: Only full casting option (limited spell list, though not any more limiting than say...a Bard's list).  Int-based casting, so not unoptimized to max the hell out of int.  Benefits gained from feinting in combat + social class skills make cha worthy o being high, second to int.  Spells support social skill set.
Cons: ....None, really, other than having 6 + int skill points.  I think the class is a little over the top, myself.


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## Herzog (Jan 19, 2010)

I'd say the Able Learner Feat (from Races of Destiny) is something to go for. It allows you to buy all skills for one skillpoint per rank (even for cross class skills) although the max ranks remains the same.
Requires you to be Human, Doppleganger or Changeling though.

Other options to consider are the Bardic Knack alternate class feature ( from Player Handbook 2, replaces Bardic Knowledge) that allows you to treat all skills as if you had half your bard level in ranks in them. Trained only skills need to have at least 1 actual rank in them to allow this.

This could free up skillpoints you'd be pumping into cross class skills otherwise. (note that this feature does not let you qualify for feats or PrC's that require a number of ranks in a certain skill. You still need actual ranks for that)

Alternatively, the Jack of All Trades feat from Complete Adventurer allows you to treat all skills as if you had 1/2 a rank in them (effectively making all skills Untrained skills!) 

All above are options to 'cover all your bases'. For your real focus, you're still better off with


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## Tomalak (Jan 19, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I played a high-Int Rgr/Diviner/(other classes) who had almost as many skill points as the party "legitimate businessman" and nearly as many class skills to work with...though most of them were KSs.
> 
> For what he did, he was pretty much tops or as good as anyone else.



What is KSs short for?

My only real problem with Rogue is that Knowledge skills are key to my character concept.  Is there any feat in 3.5 that lets me add a class skill, or gives me bonus skill points?  That's what I really need.


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## Herzog (Jan 19, 2010)

-Take Able Learner. The cross class skills now only cost one rank, just as if they were class skills.
-Take one level of Wizard. Or Bard. Or any other (prestige) class that has all knowledge skills as class skills. Now all all knowledge skills have a max as if they are class skills.
-Take levels in a skillpoints-heavy class or PrC.

done.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jan 19, 2010)

Tomalak said:


> What is KSs short for?
> 
> My only real problem with Rogue is that Knowledge skills are key to my character concept.  Is there any feat in 3.5 that lets me add a class skill, or gives me bonus skill points?  That's what I really need.




You could take the Education feat, from the Eberron Campaign Setting.  All knowledge skills become class skills and you get +1 on two knowledge skills of your choice.  Note that you can only take the feat at 1st level,  if that affects your build at all.


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## Tomalak (Jan 19, 2010)

Herzog said:


> -Take Able Learner. The cross class skills now only cost one rank, just as if they were class skills.
> -Take one level of Wizard. Or Bard. Or any other (prestige) class that has all knowledge skills as class skills. Now all all knowledge skills have a max as if they are class skills.
> -Take levels in a skillpoints-heavy class or PrC.
> 
> done.




Is this how multi-classing works now?  I thought class skills were only class skills for the levels you are taking in the class.  Is that not the case?



StreamOfTheSky said:


> You could take the Education feat, from the Eberron Campaign Setting.  All knowledge skills become class skills and you get +1 on two knowledge skills of your choice.  Note that you can only take the feat at 1st level,  if that affects your build at all.




The Education feat is exactly the thing I was looking for, thank you Stream!


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jan 19, 2010)

Tomalak said:


> Is this how multi-classing works now?  I thought class skills were only class skills for the levels you are taking in the class.  Is that not the case?




It's a little complicated until you understand, then it's fairly simple to remember.  Basically, a skill that was ever a class skill for you remains so, in terms of the number of ranks you cna pour into it (Hit Dice +3).  However, the price you pay in skill points depends on what class you leveled up in when you allocate skill points.  A Rogue 4 / Wizard 5 that just leveled to 5 in Wizard could have up to 12 ranks in Open Locks, because it is a class skill via Rogue.  However, to increase it (we'll assume it was previously maxed at 11 ranks) to the 12th rank, he needs to spend 2 skill points to do so, because he's using a wizard level to increase it.

The Able Learner feat "trick" is that Able Learner leaves the cross-class / class skill rank limitations, but you never have to pay double for a rank increase.  A Barbarian 1 could still only have 2 ranks in Use Magic Device (cross class limit), but he would pay 2 skill points for it instead of 4.  Thus, the trick is to take a single level in a class with a large skill list (Factotem, having every skill as a class skill, is the most optimzed/extreme choice).  Now your rank limit on all skills is HD +3, and because of Able Learner, you're only paying 1 skill point for each rank.


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## Tomalak (Jan 19, 2010)

That seems to have me mostly covered.  Thanks for the help guys. 

I do seem to have one outstanding issue though:  Is there any way to get more skill points?  I need several rather esoteric skills.  Basic class+int doesn't look like it's going to cut it.


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## DemonLoki (Jan 19, 2010)

Nymph's Kiss from Book of Exalted Deeds will give you +1 skill pt per level starting from the level you take it.  It's not much, but I can't think of any other feats off hand


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## StreamOfTheSky (Jan 19, 2010)

Nymph's Kiss is the best option.  Only other feat I can think of is in C.Adv., forgot the name, because it sucks so much it's not worth remembering.  

Basically, pay a feat, gain 5 skill points.  Did I floor you with awesomeness there?  Thought not.

EDIT: OMG, can't beleive I forgot!  In Races of Eberron, they have racial sub. levels of Rogue for Changelings.  These (up to 3, you pick the ones you want) levels give 10 + int skill points.  One of them, most happily, is Rogue 1, which means it gets multiplied x4!  That first level trades Trapfinding for a slew of semi-useful social skill abilities, including shorter disguise donning time, take 10 on some skills, and so forth.

Now...by being a Changeling you're forfeiting playing a +int race, so there is _some_ drawback in terms of "getting as many skill points as I possibly can."


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## Tomalak (Jan 20, 2010)

I must admit, the Changeling idea does sound interesting.  But the character does have some traits I will not change, because they are as much a part of the concept as anything else.  The character is human, for myriad reasons.  I'll have to see if the DM allows book of exalted deeds, though.  Nymph's Kiss sounds perfect.


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## freebiewitz (Jan 20, 2010)

Use rope in combat is pretty damn useful, use it to entangle or trip enemies. Maybe even lasso them or their items etc.


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## milo (Jan 20, 2010)

Human rogue with Nymph's kiss and education at 1st level.  With an int of 14 you would be at your 12 skill points/level.  I would also suggest knowledge devotion from Complete champion if you are already going to be pumping ranks into knowledge skills.  Roll a knowledge check based on creature type to get an insight bonus to attack and damage.  
You can also burn up 2 skill points (you could drop the skill points from the knowledge skills that you give yourself the +1 in from education) at some point to get the collector of stories skill trick from complete scoundrel.  It gives you a +5 competence bonus on knowledge checks to discern a weakness of a creature using a knowledge skill.  As a DM I would say that covers the knowledge devotion feat.


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## FEADIN (Jan 20, 2010)

Open minded feat let's you take 5 skill points.


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## Tomalak (Jan 20, 2010)

Yeah, my DM keeps giving me "I don't have that book", and "There will be opportunities later for you to alter your character".  The last one is "You're trying to do too much.  Just pick one or two things he's good at".  I swear this man deserves a good kicking. *sigh*  thanks for all your help guys, you've been great.


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## Herzog (Jan 20, 2010)

if you give us the available books (the DM should be able to provide that at the very least) and your primary focus (skills, primarily social skills and knowledge i think?) we would be able to give you more precise advice


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## Tomalak (Jan 20, 2010)

Books allowed are core, complete, and the class books (Masters of the wild, etc.) Any thing else needs to be approved by me.

Why he's allowing 3.0 books made obsolete by the Complete series is beyond me...


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jan 21, 2010)

Tomalak said:


> Why he's allowing 3.0 books made obsolete by the Complete series is beyond me...




Quite simply, they're not obsolete.  There are things in the class books that didn't get updated into 3.5 form in the Complete (or any other) books- PrCls, weapons, spells, feats, etc.


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## Tomalak (Jan 21, 2010)

It is my belief that such materials were left out intentionally, because WotC didn't want them in 3.5


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jan 21, 2010)

While that may be true, _WotC'_s thought processes on exclusion don't matter when we're considering why a _DM_ may have included the books for his campaign.

Perhaps he really likes some of the omitted spells.  Maybe he's hoping someone will play a Verdant Lord.  Perhaps not everyone has bought all of the Completes, so he's making it easy on those players.

Of course, you could end the speculation and ask...


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## Nedz (Jan 21, 2010)

Hi,
All of the above suggestions are sound, but why are you only seeking to max out these skills; why not try to go above par.
Consider dipping into Warlock for two levels.
Onlt 2+ skill points per level, but
The Invokations you would want are
Otherwordly Whispers +6 profane bonus on Knowledge(Arcane), Knowledge(Religeon) and Knowledge(the Planes) [CMage p 124]
Beguiling Influence +6 profane bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate [CArc]
Thus you are netting 20+ skill points per level and are setting 6 of your skills at max+6
What else do you get for your experience pieces ?
1d6 Eldritch Blast, which is pretty inconsequential except perhaps as a vehicle for an occasion magic ranged touch sneak attack.
Oh and you also get Det magic at will.
The cost: you have to be Chaotic or Evil.


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## Dandu (Jan 21, 2010)

Warlock 4 gives the ability to take 10 on UMD.


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## Ahnehnois (Jan 21, 2010)

Nedz said:


> Hi,
> All of the above suggestions are sound, but why are you only seeking to max out these skills; why not try to go above par.
> Consider dipping into Warlock for two levels.
> Onlt 2+ skill points per level, but
> ...



An even better version of this is Dragonfire Adept, which has Draconic Knowledge, which grants +6 to *all* Knowledge skills *and* Spellcraft and lets you make checks as if trained. The class also has 4+Int skill points, all Knowledges as class skills, and a better skill list, other bonuses, and you can pick up Beguiling Influence at 3rd (no take 10 on UMD though).

Also, Exemplar (CAdv) sounds like the ultimate goal for such a character regardless of route, and Paragnostic Initiate (CC), a knowledge-based nonmagical prestige class, is a nice route for getting there.


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## Herobizkit (Jan 22, 2010)

Hmm... yeah.  Bard 1/Warlock 4 could be all the cheese you need.


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## Nedz (Feb 5, 2010)

Taking 4 levels of warlock is probably 2 too many. You only get one more invokation which is most likely not useful for the character concept. If you want to be able to take 10 on UMD then fine - though you could always choose that at Rogue 10.
The extra 2 levels of Warlock give you 2d6 blast and 1 point of DR; but are poor for skill monkeys - unless you want +6 Jump, Tumble and Balance or +6 Spot, Search and Comp Lang (Written).


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## Tomalak (Feb 5, 2010)

Thanks for the input, but the above suggestion was itself well off course for the concept.  The character had a specific intent, and was not a caster of any kind.  Still, the discussion _is_ interesting.


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