# Which character generator is best-E-tools or PCgen?



## TimSmith (Aug 19, 2004)

Maybe this is asking for the works of Shakespeare in a 1 page summary, but can any knowledgable types out there help with the pros and cons of e-tools as it now stands and pcgen?

Basically, I am looking for a reliable 3.5 character generator to simplify D&D character creation. Don't need other systems, don't necessarily need lots of bells and whistles, but would like ease of use without much of a learning curve (as I have no time for this-otherwise I would just do my own character generating the old fashioned way!).

The original freebie generator in the 3ed PHB was right up my street (if it had been more accurate and if it were updated to 3.5) to give you an idea where I stand. Any advice? Please? I'll beg if necessary....


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## porkrind (Aug 19, 2004)

I currently use E-Tools because I prefer its UI to that of PCGen. E-Tools only runs on Windows, so if you're a Linux/OSX geek, you might like PCGen better. E-Tools uses an Access database for game data, while PCGen uses a proprietary text file format for datasets. Because of this, I think PCGen can handle the variety of different D20 games out there a bit better than E-Tools. There are some things you just can't do in E-Tools because it would involve not only database modifications but also code changes.

I think E-Tools is slightly less buggy than PCGen, but PCGen has come a long way in the last couple of years. Oh, and with regards to the dataset thing, if you don't have a ton of extra time and/or don't want to learn Access programming or a proprietary text file format, you're going to be buying datasets from the same company - Code Monkey Publishing. Actually, I don't think its even legal to distribute datasets you create for stuff you've make up yourself, so don't expect to find much on the web anymore.

Aren't monopolies fun?

If you're just creating standard characters and monsters from the main WotC sources, either will probably do. If you want support for D20 Modern or Monte's Arcana Unearthed stuff, and can stomach PCGen's craptacular java UI, you'll probably want it. Neither programs are particularly spectacular, often buggy, and the datasets you'll purchase are frequently incomplete.

If you don't need the more esoteric gaming modes, E-Tools will probably have a less severe learning curve. I can crank out characters much faster in E-Tools than in PCGen.

Software for P&P RPG gaming is a niche market, so unless you want to try out one of the many equally bad 3rd party programs available out there, E-Tools (Windows-only, fairly easy to use) and PCGen (more robust game support, cross-platorm, butt-ugly UI) are what you've got.

Anyway, that's my two cents.  :\


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## dpmcalister (Aug 19, 2004)

If all you're looking for is a character generator, I'd choose neither and, instead, pick Shannon Greene's Excel spreadsheet (http://home.san.rr.com/blackbart/). I've been using it for a year or so now and highly recommend it.


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## Henry (Aug 19, 2004)

You might as well as which sports team is better; you'll get vehement support from both sides. 

Porkrind has it very well described; I prefer PCGen myself, but that's mainly because it supports other d20 games besides D&D. It's not perfect, but it's good and cheap, which satisfies my requirements. Plus, I have both an investment in quite a few datasets nowadays, and I have much more familiarity customizing the data files with PCGen than I do with E-tools.

If you want something on the line of the old 3E Fluid Entertainment generator, go with E-tools. Its interface was even designed by Fluid, before the project was almost scrapped and sold. Codemonkey Pub. are good guys, and they support the package.

I would also be remiss if I left out Luke Jones' Roleplaying Master software, and Chris (can't remember last names worth a darn) Twin Rose Campaign Suite. Both are excellent D&D/d20 actively supported Char-gens as well as DM tools, but have the disadvantages of not having a D&D license for IP a la Codemonkey.


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## Joshua Randall (Aug 19, 2004)

I used to be a big PCGen supporter, but no longer. Two reasons. (1) Horrible interface. and (2) Lack of focus. In trying to do everything, PCGen does nothing well.

Haven't used E-Tools.

I'm starting to get into DMGenie, which, despite the name, has a character generator. The interface is only so-so: on par with most third-party Windows programs. On the plus side, it's a lot more stable and intuitive than PCGen.


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## TimSmith (Aug 20, 2004)

Henry said:
			
		

> You might as well as which sports team is better; you'll get vehement support from both sides.
> 
> If you want something on the line of the old 3E Fluid Entertainment generator, go with E-tools. Its interface was even designed by Fluid, before the project was almost scrapped and sold. Codemonkey Pub. are good guys, and they support the package.
> 
> I would also be remiss if I left out Luke Jones' Roleplaying Master software, and Chris (can't remember last names worth a darn) Twin Rose Campaign Suite. Both are excellent D&D/d20 actively supported Char-gens as well as DM tools, but have the disadvantages of not having a D&D license for IP a la Codemonkey.




Just like to say thanks to everyone for the advice. Also, the support and data sets etc that are mentioned. Are these support for the extra books like complete warrior, built into the program? Or are they just a sort of pdf of the salient points from the book? Looking at the code monkey site it wasn't immediately obvious. Am I right in thinking that if I wanted E-tools INCLUDING stuff from Unearthed Arcana etc that I would need to buy an unearthed arcana data set as well, but if I just wanted original PHB stuff then I only need E-tools itself?


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## Henry (Aug 20, 2004)

TimSmith said:
			
		

> Just like to say thanks to everyone for the advice. Also, the support and data sets etc that are mentioned. Are these support for the extra books like complete warrior, built into the program? Or are they just a sort of pdf of the salient points from the book? Looking at the code monkey site it wasn't immediately obvious. Am I right in thinking that if I wanted E-tools INCLUDING stuff from Unearthed Arcana etc that I would need to buy an unearthed arcana data set as well, but if I just wanted original PHB stuff then I only need E-tools itself?




OK, here's the rundown:

E-Tools originally supported 3E, not 3.5; I THINK, but am unsure, that the 3.5 core rules are IN E-tools if you update them now. PCGen has the 3.5 SRD (not yet on the new psionics 3.5 rules, they are working on it) built-in, but these are NOT the 3.5 core rules, they are what is in the SRD (which is to say, that's the 99% of the rules stuff that's not considered intellectual property). 

If you want anything BUT the core rules, you need to buy data sets from Codemonkey publishing. These data sets are made by CMP, licensed from WotC, and contain the ACTUAL rules stuff (you'll get bigby's hand spells, you'll get yuan-ti, etc.). You can buy data sets for E-tools, you can buy data sets for PCGen, OR you can buy bundles of both. Each data set is reasonably cheap, about $1.50 to $5.00 per book, depending on the book's size, and they do sell bundles for related books. For instance, the old Sword& FIst/Tome & blood/ Defenders of the faith/ etc. 5 splatbooks they sell in a bundle for $10.00.

In BOTH programs, you can customize the data - you COULD enter those splatbooks yourself - but you are paying CMP for the service of buying these things already typed in and done, and they are licensed IP, too, so you get the complete stuff without having bare-bones SRD stripped rules.

Hopefully that makes it clearer. CMP is adding data sets all the time, and they are working If I recall correctly on a NEW version of E-tools, written from the ground up, but that is a long-term project. As of the last patch, E-tools is a pretty awesome program, I hear tell - it's just that you'll want the data sets if you use a lot of extra splat books and supplements.

As for Complete Warrior, Unearthed Arcana, etc. I don't know if they have those data sets released yet, so you would need to check their website catalog to see.


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## Goobermunch (Aug 20, 2004)

I've been using Etools for about 9 months now and I love it.  If I had a laptop, I'd love it even more!  (it makes generating summoned monsters easy as pie!)

Data sets average about 5 dollars, and have all the crunch right where you can get at it.  But, to get 3.5 support, you've got to spring for the updated data (like 5 bucks).

I can't speak to the other programs out there.

--G


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## jacksluck (Aug 30, 2004)

I too find PCGen a bit clunky, but it is not a bad program.

If you want a fairly simple and straight forward character generator....try this one:

http://www.dark-legacy.com/redblade3e/3.5e/

Also, pretty straight forward on customizing weapons, skills, feats, etc....


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## Allanon (Aug 30, 2004)

Another great online character gen is this located on this site www.pathguy.com/cg35.htm.
It's even got specific gameworlds and settings like:

Ravenloft
d20 Modern
d20 Call of Ctulhu
Eberron
d20 Dark Sun
d20 Dragon
d20 Dragonlance

I quite like it, although I recalculate all the results to be sure they're correct.


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## Darth K'Trava (Aug 30, 2004)

I've used etools (the 3.0 version) alot. It works pretty good although you can't take into account for +1 weapons or +2 holy weapons at all. I'm wondering if the new version by code monkey takes this into account and if it also takes into account for anyone playing ecl races and such... before I decide to plunk down the money for the program...


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## kingpaul (Aug 30, 2004)

porkrind said:
			
		

> Actually, I don't think its even legal to distribute datasets you create for stuff you've make up yourself, so don't expect to find much on the web anymore.



Well, it depends upon where the datasets were created from, and for what program. If for eTools, it doesn't matter if the source was OGC or not. Per CMP, WotC's stance is that non-WotC-licensees can't distribute datasets for eTools. I'll see if I can find the link on their message boards where Mynex made that statement.

Now, for PCGen. If the source is OGC, then there is no problem with distribution, as long as you follow the OGL. Case in point, Privateer Press has a dataset for Iron Kingdoms up (its old, and, more than likely, won't work in the current code base).


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## kingpaul (Aug 30, 2004)

Joshua Randall said:
			
		

> I used to be a big PCGen supporter, but no longer. Two reasons. (1) Horrible interface. and (2) Lack of focus. In trying to do everything, PCGen does nothing well.



The UI issue I know about. However, I've not heard a 'lack of focus' complaint before. Would you mind expanding upon that? Thanks.


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## Joshua Randall (Aug 30, 2004)

By lack of focus, I mean that PCGen insists on catering to every random d20 supplement on the planet, rather than making a strong, robust product that handles the D&D core rules and handles them well. Instead of spending thousands of hours getting PCGen to work with Random d20 Company Release X, how about getting it to properly apply the benefit for a cleric taking the War domain. Or fixing any of the other numerous bugs that make it unreliable for standard D&D characters.

The fact that some known bugs have persisted through the last half-dozen releases is inexcusable.


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## kingpaul (Aug 31, 2004)

Joshua Randall said:
			
		

> By lack of focus, I mean that PCGen insists on catering to every random d20 supplement on the planet



I'm not sure what you mean by this. PCGen doesn't have every d20 supplement in it...far from it.


			
				Joshua Randall said:
			
		

> how about getting it to properly apply the benefit for a cleric taking the War domain.



Is this the weapon proficiency issue for clerics that don't have a deity? Looking at the rules, you get proficiency and Weapon Focus with the deity's favored weapon. I've seen requests to make it so you can choose the weapon if you don't have a deity, but, as I stated, the SRD has 'deity' in the description, so that's how we've implemented the dataset.

Now, if you have a cleric that has a deity that has a favored weapon and War doesn't work, I'm not aware of that issue.


			
				Joshua Randall said:
			
		

> Or fixing any of the other numerous bugs that make it unreliable for standard D&D characters.
> 
> The fact that some known bugs have persisted through the last half-dozen releases is inexcusable.



Which bugs are you referring to in particular? as the Tracker Silverback, I'll see about prioritizing stuff around.


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## Joshua Randall (Aug 31, 2004)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> PCGen doesn't have every d20 supplement in it...far from it.



Come on, Paul. You knew that when I said "every" d20 publisher, I was using hyperbole. Suffice it to say that there are dozens? scores? of supported publishers, yet support for the D&D core rules / RSRD is still spotty. PCGen seems willing to bend over backwards to accommodate the bizarre mutations of the d20 rules that third-party publishers create, but not willing to set up a rigorous testing cycle for RSRD functions.

As for which bugs are still prevelent -- I admitted earlier in this thread that I no longer use PCGen (have switched to DM Genie), so I no longer keep up on the status of all the bugs. But some of the persistent bugs I can think of right now are:

* dwarven waraxe - is it martial? exotic? one-handed? two-handed? Pick your favorite interpretation and implement it. Make an exception for dwarves. Furthermore, when you take Weapon Focus with the waraxe, you should actually get a +1 attack bonus.
* weapon focus in general - sometimes doesn't apply the +1 attack bonus.
* auto-generated masterwork and magic items - were still completely screwed, last I checked.
* items in general - lots of silly errors in the item list, like containers not tagged as such (so you can't put anything in them) or incorrect weights or prices.
* un/holy or anarchic/axiomatic weapons - incorrectly imposing negative levels even on evil/good or chaotic/lawful wielders.
* The entire way the end-user can create custom entries, using the built-in PCGen tools, is completely screwed. The tool will mangle the .lst files (e.g. for character classes) so that they're unworkable. You then have to go in an manually edit them, which requires keeping track of the ever-changing .lst syntax and tags.

The fact of the matter is that I cannot trust PCGen accurately to determine relatively simple game functions like attack bonuses or weapon damage. And that makes the tool worthless to me -- if I have to check PCGen's math, I may as well just use pencil and paper to begin with.


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## jujutsunerd (Aug 31, 2004)

porkrind said:
			
		

> PCGen's craptacular java UI




Hey, don't blame java for pcgen's UI. Blame us programmers instead.

<blatant overgeneralization>Programmers tend to not care too much about appearance, instead preferring functionality, quite possibly because they haven't got a clue about how to make programs look good.</blatant overgeneralization> I know *I* don't have a clue about how to make stuff look good. 

/Jonas, who occasionally feels that anything that can't be done on a VT100 terminal shouldn't be done at all. ;-)


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## 3catcircus (Sep 1, 2004)

Funny - not one character generator works well.

I use a combination of DnDCharbook from RPGSheets website, along with Heroforge, depending upon what character I want to build, along with a customized Steve's Spell Sheets 3.5.

What I need is a character generator that is easy to use, is fast (DnDCharBook seems slightly faster than Heroforge), that is complete (all WoTC-published books), that is dynamic (3.0 splatbook feat automatically, gets replaced by it's 3.5 Complete... Book equivalent, for example.), that helps me (show me what I need to be eligibile for a feat or PrC, for example) and is expandable (allows me to enter new information easily, as new books are published, the recent OA updates for Kara-Tur & 3.5 in Dragon 315, 318, for example.)

Unfortunately, nothing out there does this as well as my brain - except that I, like many DMs, have more ideas than time.

For example, I want to be able to whip up an OA Monk 10 / Shintao Monk 5, and be able to select the updated 3.5 feats, re-adjusted for Kara-Tur.  I want to be able to whip up a Clr/Black Flame Zealot.  I want to be able to whip up a Noble Fighter (Aristocrat/Fighter),  I want to be able to whip up a Kobold Fighter/Cleric.  I want to be able to implement Scott Bennie's Old Empires PDF or the d20 Arabian Nights/Zakhara PDF.

No one product currently does this.

I don't trust PCGEN's math, and also feel anger at the fact that dozens of people put together a *ton* of 3.0 material (splat books, FR books, Living Greyhawk, Spycraft, etc) that PCGEN included up through Rev 2.73 and CMP then has the nerve to turn around and demand money for that information in the form of data packs with the advent of Rev 3.0+

A new character generator (Grail, available from RPGsheets.com) looks promising, but would require that I enter the stats of non-core information (i.e. tell it what a prestige class's BAB and Save progression is, what abilities I get for each level, etc.)

I really want a piece of software that does all of the calculations and contains all of the information so that I can generate a statblock or character sheet, for example, during my lunch hour at work when I don't have access to my books.


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## kingpaul (Sep 1, 2004)

3catcircus said:
			
		

> I don't trust PCGEN's math, and also feel anger at the fact that dozens of people put together a *ton* of 3.0 material (splat books, FR books, Living Greyhawk, Spycraft, etc) that PCGEN included up through Rev 2.73 and CMP then has the nerve to turn around and demand money for that information in the form of data packs with the advent of Rev 3.0+



The PCGen team sat down with the WotC team at GenCon 2002. WotC informed PCGen that, by including the closed source books (splat books, FR material, etc), that we were violating WotC's copyright and IP. It was at that time that those datasets were removed.

CMP is a separate entity and is a licensee of WotC. As such, they have permission to create and distribute datasets for WotC's closed content books. They created their datasets from scratch and did not copy the work of others who had donated datasets.

As for Spycraft, there was licensing issues with that as well. AEG had received permission from WotC to utilize Class Defense and WP/VP. These items were not, then, open content. Because of that, these datasets were removed. Now that Unearthed Arcana (a mostsly OGC book) is out, those items are now OGC. As such, Spycraft is now back in PCGen.


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## Mynex (Sep 1, 2004)

3catcircus said:
			
		

> I don't trust PCGEN's math, and also feel anger at the fact that dozens of people put together a *ton* of 3.0 material (splat books, FR books, Living Greyhawk, Spycraft, etc) that PCGEN included up through Rev 2.73 and CMP then has the nerve to turn around and demand money for that information in the form of data packs with the advent of Rev 3.0+




Funny, considering I did a vast majority of those books back at the time, that I kept them up to date back at the time.  I recall about 5 or 6 people that worked on various books back at the time other than myself, not dozens, PCGen has NEVER had dozens of data volunteers.  However, as Paul explained, pulling the Wizards material then was at their request.  

CMP was formed to try and get that information back into PCGen, sorry if that doesn't sit well with you but this bit of misinfornation is also about 2 years out of date.

As for Spycraft, CMP had nothing to do with Spycraft, other than offering to give it a hosting place because of licensing, so don't lay that at our door step.

Whatever you're problem is with CMP, please refrain from spreading misinformation.  Unless you were at the meeting with Anthony Valterra back in 2002 at GenCon, you have no idea what occurred.

Now, to keep this on topic, we had for almost 9 months on our forums, a 'wish list area' for RPG Toolkit (What was formerly called the rewrite of e-Tools for lack of a better name)... This list included every pie-in-the-sky request people could dream up.  We've taken that list, broken it down into 'Core program', 'Add-on', and 'not a chance' (Okay, we as GM's do NOT need to track the migratory patterns of animals during the seasons in a program automatically or GPS positioning of characters on a map - cool as those are, that's just insane.   ).

The big things for the core are (generalizing);
1. Correctness (math & rules implementation)
2. Flexibility
3. Fully functioning Editors


We're focusing on those 3 areas for RPG Toolkit... With the years of PCGen Coding, fixing e-Tools, the licensing factor with Wizards, and just the amount of anal retentiveness in our gaming/coding experience, doing things from the ground up (as opposed to inheriting someone else's work), not as an Open Source project (i.e. 1 vision/direction, not 30), we'll be able to address these core issues in a very direct, concise manner.

Do we expect that RPG Toolkit will be right for everyone?  Nope.  Someone will always find fault with a program, that's just the way it is.  But our desire is that we will build the character generator that most people have wanted since 3.0 was released, and that's all we can aim for, pleasing as many people as possible, instead of trying to please all people and failing.


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## TheAuldGrump (Sep 1, 2004)

It's amazing how long rumor can stir around, isn't it?

And for the record a few of the non WotC things that were removed are creeping slowly back in, including Spycraft. Mny were a bit buggy early on, and not all the companies and groups had given permission for the use of the data. The folks working on PCGen started making sure that permissions had been granted, and that the code was not too buggy. My one complaint is between permissions and debugging the number of datasets slowed from a raging torrent to a thin trickle. (People like creating datasets, they hate debugging.)

And WotC did not give the folks working on PCGen a whole lot of choice in the matter. It was charge money or not have them at all. And a whole lot of changes have taken place to PCGen since 2002, faster, less buggy, skins, GMGen being bundled with it..

The Auld Grump


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## kingpaul (Sep 1, 2004)

Joshua Randall said:
			
		

> Come on, Paul. You knew that when I said "every" d20 publisher, I was using hyperbole.



My apologies. People have accused us, and being serious, that we had sets for all publishers.



			
				Joshua Randall said:
			
		

> As for which bugs are still prevelent -- I admitted earlier in this thread that I no longer use PCGen (have switched to DM Genie), so I no longer keep up on the status of all the bugs. But some of the persistent bugs I can think of right now are:



Thanks for the list. I'm tracking down these now.


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## 3catcircus (Sep 1, 2004)

KingPaul said:
			
		

> The PCGen team sat down with the WotC team at GenCon 2002. WotC informed PCGen that, by including the closed source books (splat books, FR material, etc), that we were violating WotC's copyright and IP. It was at that time that those datasets were removed.
> 
> CMP is a separate entity and is a licensee of WotC. As such, they have permission to create and distribute datasets for WotC's closed content books. They created their datasets from scratch and did not copy the work of others who had donated datasets.
> 
> As for Spycraft, there was licensing issues with that as well. AEG had received permission from WotC to utilize Class Defense and WP/VP. These items were not, then, open content. Because of that, these datasets were removed. Now that Unearthed Arcana (a mostsly OGC book) is out, those items are now OGC. As such, Spycraft is now back in PCGen.






			
				Mynex said:
			
		

> Funny, considering I did a vast majority of those books back at the time, that I kept them up to date back at the time.  I recall about 5 or 6 people that worked on various books back at the time other than myself, not dozens, PCGen has NEVER had dozens of data volunteers.  However, as Paul explained, pulling the Wizards material then was at their request.
> 
> CMP was formed to try and get that information back into PCGen, sorry if that doesn't sit well with you but this bit of misinfornation is also about 2 years out of date.
> 
> ...





Ok - I combined my response to both of your comments.

First - perception is reality.  If I had the perception of the situation that PCGen and CMP are in, then I bet a lot of other (former) users of the software have a similar perception.

It is easy to say "we made them from scratch" - however - how much of that "from scratch" was cut-n-paste and how much was fat-finger all over again?  That is the question that I think people have in regards to "we did it from scratch" because it makes them think they aren't getting value for their money when deciding whether to purchase a dataset.

While "dozens" may be an embellishment, the fact is that the data *was* entered and was workable up through 2.73 (bugs within PCGen itself notwithstanding).  Luckily, I installed 3.0 in a separate directory and saw that the data files were removed from 3.0+.  CMP trying to recapture the data, while a great idea, is too little too late (at least for me) to keep me loyal - I've glanced at PCGen up through the current rev, but I think it rather arrogant on the part of CMP and the PCGen developers to give people (or at least me) the impression "All that data you had already?  Well, now it won't work properly unless you make major changes, by hand, to the .lst files.  We've got this new version of PCGen - its better than ever, oh, and, CMP will *sell* you data sets for the latest rev, but they aren't ready for sale, and when they *do* sell them, they might not be complete."  I wouldn't expect to get stuff for free, but full backwards-compatibility for pre-CMP datasets should have been maintained.  Sorry - but PCGen is dead to me.

Frankly, I hate to say it, but there are a few really great Excel-based character generators that put PCGen to shame.  While there is no one Excel-based generator that does everything, what they do - they do extremely well.  Accurate math, lots of data (currently up through Player's Guide to Faerun and Races of Stone), nice looking output, etc.  The only problem will be the Excel "Open Files" limit issue.  As far as expandability - if I ever got off my butt and inspected the formulae in the spreadsheets (along with judicious use of email with the author(s)), I'm certain that it would be much easier to implement new data than trying to build a .lst file or modify existing .lst files.

Now - as far as RPG Toolkit:  If it does the following, I'd consider taking a look at purchasing it --

1.  Accurate Math
2.  *FULL* and *COMPLETE* implementation of every single WoTC and/orPaizo-published D&D product, including that contained in Dragon Magazine and also published on the Website.
3.  Ease of use if I want to create new data.
4.  Quality output - I want a character sheet that lists every possible variation of the stats that may be affected by character build choices (feats, 1-handed vs. 2-handed, etc.) and that lists good information on spells for spellcasters.  As an example for the spell sheets, Steve's Spell Sheets are, AFAIAC, the gold standard.
5.  Thorough beta testing - I won't pay to be your beta-tester.

As far as other capabilities - I couldn't care less about mapping or running campaigns or combats - there are other programs that do that better than PCGen or E-Tools does, and presumable that RPG Toolkit would be able to do.  Stick to PC/NPC generation.


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## kingpaul (Sep 1, 2004)

3catcircus said:
			
		

> It is easy to say "we made them from scratch" - however - how much of that "from scratch" was cut-n-paste and how much was fat-finger all over again?  That is the question that I think people have in regards to "we did it from scratch" because it makes them think they aren't getting value for their money when deciding whether to purchase a dataset.



The datasets were fat-fingered. CMP was accused early on its life of 'stealing' datasets from PCGen. This accusation has been around almost as long as CMP has been around.


			
				3catcircus said:
			
		

> While "dozens" may be an embellishment, the fact is that the data *was* entered and was workable up through 2.73 (bugs within PCGen itself notwithstanding).



Yes, it was entered. However, by WotC's PoV, it was done so illegally. That's why it was removed.


			
				3catcircus said:
			
		

> Luckily, I installed 3.0 in a separate directory and saw that the data files were removed from 3.0+.  CMP trying to recapture the data, while a great idea, is too little too late (at least for me) to keep me loyal - I've glanced at PCGen up through the current rev, but I think it rather arrogant on the part of CMP and the PCGen developers to give people (or at least me) the impression "All that data you had already?  Well, now it won't work properly unless you make major changes, by hand, to the .lst files.  We've got this new version of PCGen - its better than ever, oh, and, CMP will *sell* you data sets for the latest rev, but they aren't ready for sale, and when they *do* sell them, they might not be complete." I wouldn't expect to get stuff for free, but full backwards-compatibility for pre-CMP datasets should have been maintained.  Sorry - but PCGen is dead to me.



I'm sorry you feel that way. However, there are Lst converters to attempt to bring older datasets forward. I can't recall how long they've been there. But, once again, because of WotC's stance on the closed-content datasets, support to bring them forward was not implemented.  2.7.3 dataset issue and current compatibility is an issue that has been brought up many times. Once again, I'm sorry that you feel as you do, but WotC dictated, as was their right as the IP owner, what was to be done.


			
				3catcircus said:
			
		

> Frankly, I hate to say it, but there are a few really great Excel-based character generators that put PCGen to shame.  While there is no one Excel-based generator that does everything, what they do - they do extremely well.  Accurate math, lots of data (currently up through Player's Guide to Faerun and Races of Stone), nice looking output, etc.



Would you mind expanding on these issues? I've heard complaints about accurate math wrt monster HD (which just got fixed). Is there anything else?

The data: once again, the sources you are citing are closed-content and PCGen does not have permission to distribute datasets based on those books.

Output: What output sheet issues do you have? That's one area that I don't hear many complaints in at all.


			
				3catcircus said:
			
		

> Now - as far as RPG Toolkit:  If it does the following, I'd consider taking a look at purchasing it --
> 
> 1.  Accurate Math
> 2.  *FULL* and *COMPLETE* implementation of every single WoTC and/or Paizo-published D&D product, including that contained in Dragon Magazine and also published on the Website.
> ...



I'm not an agent of CMP, but I'll try to speak on some of these issues.

Data: AFAIK, they will continue to be a licensee of WotC on the WotC non-licensed books (not SW, WoT, Cthulu, etc). Those licensed books will require licensing from the other parties involved (Lucas, Jordan, Chaosium respectively).  For Paizo, I believe CMP is in talks with them...beyond that, I don't know.

Entering data: From the Q&A @ GenCon, they are planning on having the data developed by 2 methods. The raw data will be held in an SQLite database. Then, there will be, for lack of a better term, 'scripts' that will tell the program what to do with the data.

Output: From the Q&A @ GenCon, they are planning on building in a customizable output creator so the user can create their output sheet however they want to.


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## frugal (Sep 2, 2004)

3catcircus said:
			
		

> Frankly, I hate to say it, but there are a few really great Excel-based character generators that put PCGen to shame.  While there is no one Excel-based generator that does everything, what they do - they do extremely well.  Accurate math, lots of data (currently up through Player's Guide to Faerun and Races of Stone), nice looking output, etc.




You are aware that all of those spreadsheets are technically illegal aren't you?

You might get away with fair use in the US, but even then WoTC have a good case for a cease and desist. There are only 2 reasons that they have not done so: They would get no money and they would get lots of bad press.

I am sick of people complaining about the data sets for PCGen when it is the only character generator I have ever seen that actually follows the law.


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## 3catcircus (Sep 2, 2004)

frugal said:
			
		

> You are aware that all of those spreadsheets are technically illegal aren't you?
> 
> You might get away with fair use in the US, but even then WoTC have a good case for a cease and desist. There are only 2 reasons that they have not done so: They would get no money and they would get lots of bad press.
> 
> I am sick of people complaining about the data sets for PCGen when it is the only character generator I have ever seen that actually follows the law.





Legality depends upon your location and/or copyright laws - I own every book that WoTC has published, so I'm pretty sure it *is* considered fair use for me to use an Excel-based chargen that I then can add data to after I buy a new book.  If someone else has already done the work to enter that data - then great!  Otherwise, I enter new data myself.  Considering that I generally buy a new book the day it becomes available before I can *enter* new data, I have no moral qualms about using an Excel-based chargen.  Currently, I'm entering data from Races of Stone.

I wouldn't complain about the PCGen datasets if they were complete, worked 100% correctly (and this is really a function of PCGen rather than the datasets themselves, so maybe I'm being overly harsh) and were published in a timely manner - how long has it been since Underdark, Complete Divine, Player's Guide to Faerun, Serpent Kingdoms and Planar Handbook were published?


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## 3catcircus (Sep 2, 2004)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> Would you mind expanding on these issues? I've heard complaints about accurate math wrt monster HD (which just got fixed). Is there anything else?




Yes - I'm still finding random errors in calculations of basic basic values (attack bonuses, skill synergy bonuses) - I assume it is probably an artifact from using the pre-PCGen3.0 .lst files run through the converter.



> The data: once again, the sources you are citing are closed-content and PCGen does not have permission to distribute datasets based on those books.




So - CMP doesn't have a licensing agreement with WoTC that allows them to provide datasets as new books are published?  Pardon my french, but if that is the case, it seems like a crappy licensing agreement.  It would also lead me to speculate about the licensing agreement in whole - what kind of support will the end-user expect for older datasets?



> Output: What output sheet issues do you have? That's one area that I don't hear many complaints in at all.




Well - I use primarily 2 chargens and a spell sheet generator.  None of them provides *all* the data I would like by themselves (hence, I use all 3).  PCGen has many varieties of output sheet, but, once again, it isn't perfect.  It is a heck of a lot easier to manipulate an Excel sheet than it is to manipulate an XML-based output sheet.



> I'm not an agent of CMP, but I'll try to speak on some of these issues.
> 
> Data: AFAIK, they will continue to be a licensee of WotC on the WotC non-licensed books (not SW, WoT, Cthulu, etc). Those licensed books will require licensing from the other parties involved (Lucas, Jordan, Chaosium respectively).  For Paizo, I believe CMP is in talks with them...beyond that, I don't know.
> 
> ...




So - will this SQLite DB be *easy* to manipulate by a user?  I want to be able to look at a data field and know what it is without needing a rosetta stone to decipher.

How will the output creator work?  Will it be easy to use, or do I have to do a lot of work?

Here's the thing - if something is free, I have no problems tinkering with it to fix the mistakes and make it work the way I want it to.

On the other hand, if I'm paying money for it, I expect it to work (i.e. I'm not gonna do your beta-testing for you), and I expect it to be intuitively easy to manipulate.


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## kingpaul (Sep 2, 2004)

3catcircus said:
			
		

> Yes - I'm still finding random errors in calculations of basic basic values (attack bonuses, skill synergy bonuses) - I assume it is probably an artifact from using the pre-PCGen3.0 .lst files run through the converter.



That could very well be. There have been *massive* changes in the code and data structure since those days. Are these errors your speak of when you use only the datasets that ship with the program, or when working with your personal datasets? 


			
				3catcircus said:
			
		

> So - CMP doesn't have a licensing agreement with WoTC that allows them to provide datasets as new books are published?  Pardon my french, but if that is the case, it seems like a crappy licensing agreement.  It would also lead me to speculate about the licensing agreement in whole - what kind of support will the end-user expect for older datasets?



As I said earlier, I'm not an agent of CMP. However, I know they are expecting to finish up the backlog by year's end and be completely caught up with existing product. From that point, I have no idea what the lag time (if any) will be between new product and dataset.


			
				3catcircus said:
			
		

> Well - I use primarily 2 chargens and a spell sheet generator.  None of them provides *all* the data I would like by themselves (hence, I use all 3).  PCGen has many varieties of output sheet, but, once again, it isn't perfect.  It is a heck of a lot easier to manipulate an Excel sheet than it is to manipulate an XML-based output sheet.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## kingpaul (Sep 2, 2004)

3catcircus said:
			
		

> Legality depends upon your location and/or copyright laws - I own every book that WoTC has published, so I'm pretty sure it *is* considered fair use for me to use an Excel-based chargen that I then can add data to after I buy a new book.  If someone else has already done the work to enter that data - then great!  Otherwise, I enter new data myself.  Considering that I generally buy a new book the day it becomes available before I can *enter* new data, I have no moral qualms about using an Excel-based chargen.  Currently, I'm entering data from Races of Stone.



What Frugal was alluding to  (I think, correct me if I'm wrong) is the distribution of closed-content material. AFAIK, if you own the product, you can create something to make your life easier to use said data. However, since you aren't the IP owner, you can't distribute said material without the IP owner's permission. This is why PCGen was told by WotC to yank the pre-3.0 WotC sources...we didn't have their permission to distriubte them.


			
				3catcircus said:
			
		

> I wouldn't complain about the PCGen datasets if they were complete, worked 100% correctly (and this is really a function of PCGen rather than the datasets themselves, so maybe I'm being overly harsh) and were published in a timely manner - how long has it been since Underdark, Complete Divine, Player's Guide to Faerun, Serpent Kingdoms and Planar Handbook were published?



Alright, those datasets are *not* distributed by PCGen, they are distributed by CMP. PCGen does not have a license with WotC to distribute their closed-content material.  Now, as I said in the previous email, CMP is working on clearing out the back log.  They are almost done on the 3.0 books, working on converting the 3.0 books to 3.5 and working on getting the current 3.5 books out the door.


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## Mynex (Sep 2, 2004)

3catcircus - No one software is going to be the 'end all be all' for everyone out there.  All the things you state you want in a program we plan on implementing for RPG Toolkit already, so the best thing I can say here is wait for it to be released next year and wait for reviews before deciding to purchase it.


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## Henry (Sep 2, 2004)

One question to 3catcircus: Are you clear on the division between Codemonkey Publishing, and the PCGen LGPL all-volunteer design team? Not to say you aren't, but some of your responses seem to imply that you aren't.


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## 3catcircus (Sep 3, 2004)

Henry said:
			
		

> One question to 3catcircus: Are you clear on the division between Codemonkey Publishing, and the PCGen LGPL all-volunteer design team? Not to say you aren't, but some of your responses seem to imply that you aren't.




No - I'm perfectly clear on that fact and have been since the beginning of this discussion.  For example:



			
				3catcircus said:
			
		

> I wouldn't complain about the PCGen datasets if they were complete, worked 100% correctly (and this is really a function of PCGen rather than the datasets themselves, so maybe I'm being overly harsh)...




Notice, I made the distinction of PCGen functionality vs. dataset functionality in the statement I quoted?  I thought I was being clear enough in stating up front that I understood perfectly the distinction between PCGen and CMP.

What I'm *not* clear about is whether there is an incestuous relationship between CMP employees and PCGen developers (i.e. working on both at the same time.)

In any case, the relationship between CMP and PCgen is not, or shouldn't be that important to the end-user if the software works as advertised.  It makes no sense to worry about buying datasets if PCGen can't do what it needs to do properly with the data.


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## 3catcircus (Sep 3, 2004)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> That could very well be. There have been *massive* changes in the code and data structure since those days. Are these errors your speak of when you use only the datasets that ship with the program, or when working with your personal datasets?
> 
> As I said earlier, I'm not an agent of CMP. However, I know they are expecting to finish up the backlog by year's end and be completely caught up with existing product. From that point, I have no idea what the lag time (if any) will be between new product and dataset.
> 
> ...




No - but I would expect that a product properly do the basics of what it is intended to do.  What I mean by that statement is that, at its core, *any* chargen is nothing more than a calculator.  If it can't calculate a bunch of numbers and give the correct answer, then I would consider the bug to be a show-stopper.

I realize that PCGen is free, open source and volunteer, which is why I stated that I've no problem with tinkering with it myself.

What I stated was that I had a problem with the notion of buying something that isn't complete and/or doesn't work properly, but I did acknowledge that CMP's datasets can't be blamed for errors in PCGen itself.

As far as eTools - I've no experience with it so I can't comment on it.


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## Abraxas (Sep 3, 2004)

Since Kingpaul is here and he asked about bugs in PCGen I thought I'd bring these two up.

1) In version 5.7.1 the ranger doesn't get to select his first favored enemy until 2nd level.

2) Also, I may just be dense, but I can't find a way to increment an existing favored enemy bonus at ranger levels 5, 10, 15, etc.

Oh and a question, is there a comprehesive help document with examples of the various tags, more extensive than the one that comes with the program download?


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## kingpaul (Sep 3, 2004)

Abraxas said:
			
		

> 1) In version 5.7.1 the ranger doesn't get to select his first favored enemy until 2nd level.



Unfortunately, this is a known issue that folks are looking into.  I'll prod them along to see what's going on.


			
				Abraxas said:
			
		

> 2) Also, I may just be dense, but I can't find a way to increment an existing favored enemy bonus at ranger levels 5, 10, 15, etc.



If you look, in the RSRD dataset, in file rsrd_feats_hidden.lst, and go down to the "#Favored Enemy Bonuses" section, that shows how the bonuses are granted. Now, you may not understand lst-ese. If looking at the file doesn't help you (or confuses you even more), I'll try to help you out more.


			
				Abraxas said:
			
		

> Oh and a question, is there a comprehesive help document with examples of the various tags, more extensive than the one that comes with the program download?



This is being looked into. Most of the Board was at GenCon, and we discussed putting together a a primer on the common VARs and EQMODs.


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## Henry (Sep 3, 2004)

3catcircus said:
			
		

> Notice, I made the distinction of PCGen functionality vs. dataset functionality in the statement I quoted?  I thought I was being clear enough in stating up front that I understood perfectly the distinction between PCGen and CMP.




OK, all clear - it's just the exchange between you and Kingpaul:



> 3CC: I wouldn't complain about the PCGen datasets if they were complete, worked 100% correctly (and this is really a function of PCGen rather than the datasets themselves, so maybe I'm being overly harsh) and were published in a timely manner - how long has it been since Underdark, Complete Divine, Player's Guide to Faerun, Serpent Kingdoms and Planar Handbook were published?
> 
> KP: The data: once again, the sources you are citing are closed-content and PCGen does not have permission to distribute datasets based on those books.
> 
> 3CC: So - CMP doesn't have a licensing agreement with WoTC that allows them to provide datasets as new books are published? Pardon my french, but if that is the case, it seems like a crappy licensing agreement. It would also lead me to speculate about the licensing agreement in whole - what kind of support will the end-user expect for older datasets?




which was what made me think that you expected the PCGen team to have control over closed gaming content. While Underdark, Serpent Kingdoms, etc. Will probably NEVER be released as Open Game Content, CMP as I understand it has license to make PCGEN-compatible datasets of ALL of this stuff. However, as Mynex has said in the past, all datasets they make (both for E-tools and the PCGEN-compatible sets) has to pass by a quality assurance team from WotC, sometimes MULTIPLE times before its released. It's part of the license agreement.


In regards to the backwards compatiblity of the programs, there is a HUGE compatibility gap between 4.0 and 5.0/5.1, a period when major TAG revisions were taking place as I remember. It hasn't been a situation where datasets were systematically left behind, but more like one huge dump between those two major releases.

OTOH, I'm wondering if we're going to see a similar major change now that java 1.3.1 is no longer supported?


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## kingpaul (Sep 3, 2004)

Henry said:
			
		

> OTOH, I'm wondering if we're going to see a similar major change now that java 1.3.1 is no longer supported?



Not that I'm aware of. I'm not a coder, but the way it was explained to me was that a) GMGen wouldn't work on pre-1.4.x and b) 1.4.x took care of numerous java issues that existed in 1.3.x.


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## Abraxas (Sep 5, 2004)

> _posted by *kingpaul*_
> If you look, in the RSRD dataset, in file rsrd_feats_hidden.lst, and go down to the "#Favored Enemy Bonuses" section, that shows how the bonuses are granted. Now, you may not understand lst-ese. If looking at the file doesn't help you (or confuses you even more), I'll try to help you out more.



OK, I had a look and you are correct - I don't really understand lst-ese.
I'm not more confused just still confused.  When I create a ranger character, at levels 5, 10 etc I get the option to select a new favored enemy.  In the feats window I see these favored enemy feats and favored enemy bonus feats - but can't select them (and if I disable the prereqs the cost feat slots that the character gets at 1st and every 3rd level).  On the output sheet, all favored enemies are shown with a +2.

So what am I missing?


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## vic20 (Sep 8, 2004)

*DMGenie*

I have been using DMGenie (www.dmgenie.com) for over a year. I think it's great.

Download the demo and give it a go!


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