# Star Trek Strange New Worlds, what did you think?



## Hex08

Personally, I loved it. My spoiler free review is that I feel like I have watched my first real Star Trek show in decades. I like Picard and really enjoy Lower Decks but Strange New Worlds, I thought, really captured the feeling of Trek. It's not nearly as dark as Disco or Picard, visually or thematically. The casting is really good, Anson Mount especially, although Nurse Chapel seems like a totally different person. It does some fiddly things with the canon timeline but that doesn't bug me much. My only real complaint is the size of the ship, Enterprise looks really good but it's way too big


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## JarooAshstaff

I enjoyed it, I think I would have loved it as a teen when I couldn't recognize the patronizing tone.

But I don't know if this generation of kids will like it as much, the generation that saw a coup by the president, that are watching a white supremist lead Fox news, watch womens rights removed piece by piece, watch black men being murdered at traffic stops, watching war break out in Europe.  

Not sure it will resonate as much with them.

But for me, love the nostalgia, love the optimism.


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## Ryujin

JarooAshstaff said:


> I enjoyed it, I think I would have loved it as a teen when I couldn't recognize the patronizing tone.
> 
> But I don't know if this generation of kids will like it as much, the generation that saw a coup by the president, that are watching a white supremist lead Fox news, watch womens rights removed piece by piece, watch black men being murdered at traffic stops, watching war break out in Europe.
> 
> Not sure it will resonate as much with them.
> 
> But for me, love the nostalgia, love the optimism.



With all of that going on, maybe the younger generation could use a little optimism.


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## Morrus

JarooAshstaff said:


> I enjoyed it, I think I would have loved it as a teen when I couldn't recognize the patronizing tone.
> 
> But I don't know if this generation of kids will like it as much, the generation that saw a coup by the president, that are watching a white supremist lead Fox news, watch womens rights removed piece by piece, watch black men being murdered at traffic stops, watching war break out in Europe.
> 
> Not sure it will resonate as much with them.
> 
> But for me, love the nostalgia, love the optimism.



The 60s were pretty full of bad stuff too. And WWII was to them like 2000 is to us.


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## Morrus

Hex08 said:


> My only real complaint is the size of the ship, Enterprise looks really good but it's way too big



Looked about right to me.


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## Benjamin Olson

I think it was probably the strongest opening episode I've ever seen for a Trek. It helped that it had some established characters, so every character didn't need a full introduction. I think it helped more that the three central cast members have already gotten comfortable with the roles.

But wow, a live action Trek that's not all brooding darkness, and that wrapped up a plot in one episode. It's been a long time. I don't hate Discovery, and kind of like Picard, but I stopped watching the prior because it felt like work I had to get through, and the latter I don't imagine I'll ever feel the inclination to rewatch as it's just too big of an undertaking to revisit whole season plot-arc shows. But I suspect I'll be watching the Strange New Worlds pilot again sometime in the not too distant future.


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## Mallus

Damn if that‘s not a charming cast. Reminds me of another show…


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## Umbran

JarooAshstaff said:


> But I don't know if this generation of kids will like it as much, the generation that saw a coup by the president, that are watching a white supremist lead Fox news, watch womens rights removed piece by piece, watch black men being murdered at traffic stops, watching war break out in Europe.
> 
> Not sure it will resonate as much with them.




Yeah, you did see Pike's speech, right?  They are acknowledging the issues, rather than glossing over them.

In the middle of the dark is exactly when you need some light.  And while there are some nods to the old, there's some youth-coded characters there that may resonate with today's viewers, too.


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## Hex08

Morrus said:


> Looked about right to me.



I think it looked good but the bridge was about as big as the Enterprise-D and Pike's quarters looked like a penthouse compared to what we have seen before on any ship. That's something thing Star Trek: Enterprise did well, it looked small and cramped compared to TOS and then the ships of the TNG era were more spacious. It seemed like a natural progression, older ship building tech led to smaller, more cramped spaces and as technology advanced we got more spacious ships. SNW gives us ships with a lot of room that seem out of place to my eye.

Pike's quarters, for example, had tons of open space, a nice fireplace, a large bar and was probably bigger than any apartment than I've lived in. Kirk's quarters on TOS were way smaller and Archer's on Enterprise were positively cramped. While I loved the show the sheer size of the interior compared to what I am used to really caused my geek brain to freeze up.


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## Stalker0

For this episode I only need to say one thing, now THAT is Star Trek.


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## Morrus

Hex08 said:


> I think it looked good but the bridge was about as big as the Enterprise-D and Pike's quarters looked like a penthouse compared to what we have seen before on any ship. That's something thing Star Trek: Enterprise did well, it looked small and cramped compared to TOS and then the ships of the TNG era were more spacious. It seemed like a natural progression, older ship building tech led to smaller, more cramped spaces and as technology advanced we got more spacious ships. SNW gives us ships with a lot of room that seem out of place to my eye.
> 
> Pike's quarters, for example, had tons of open space, a nice fireplace, a large bar and was probably bigger than any apartment than I've lived in. Kirk's quarters on TOS were way smaller and Archer's on Enterprise were positively cramped. While I loved the show the sheer size of the interior compared to what I am used to really caused my geek brain to freeze up.



PIke's quarters were a bit big yeah. I assume only the captain gets something that nice. The bridge was fine with me though. I tend to think the Enterprise's size is often not portrayed well in the opposite direction--it's a big capital ship, but sometimes you would just get the sense that it's about the size of the Starbug in Red Dwarf if you didn't know otherwise.


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## Ryujin

Just 5 minutes in and I didn't need to see any more, to know I was going to like it. The tone was set by showing the end of "The Day the Earth Stood Still." This is how I want to remember Star Trek.

Yes, the Enterprise seems a fair bit bigger than in TOS, but it feels smaller than in the Kelvin movies. It feels smaller than Discovery. And, as to the bridge, I'm wondering how much larger it actually is and how much is wide angle lens distortion. It just _feels_ right to me. Discovery's bridge feels like a repurposed gymnasium to me, whereas Enterprise's bridge feels a bit more naval.


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## Morrus

The Kelvin Enterprise is massive -- even bigger than the TNG Enterprise (and then kept meeting big black ships 10 times its size). This one is in between the TOS and Kelvin in size. It feels about right to me; like I said, sometimes context makes it feel way too small, when it's the flagship of the fleet. It's about the size of a modern aircraft carrier.


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## Mort

Really liked this episode - As others have said this REALLY felt like Star Trek, more than the other recent outings (though I do think, Lower Decks, as a funny take on Star Trek is quite good).

One Thing I couldn't unsee. La'an Noonien-Singh looked very familiar to me, but I couldn't place it.

But then realized it wasn't the actress or even the character it was the look:






Vs.





Second image (for those that don't know) is Kamina Drummer from the expanse - and wow does the style seem identical (to me).  They have La'an looking like a belter.

Probably a big coincidence - but let's hope La'an lives up to the comparison!


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## billd91

I really enjoyed it. One of the strongest first episodes in a Star Trek show. I hope it continues to excel.
I'm also really wondering if we'll see an updated perspective on "The Cage" at some point.


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## Mallus

I kept expecting La'an to start spitting out Belter creole, too.


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## Ryujin

I really like the way that they subverted our expectations of a certain scene given the character's name and the discussion that was being had


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## Arilyn

I loved the first episode. Felt like Trek with engaging characters. And the humour is back! 
At first the larger size of the Enterprise jarred but then I realized it should be large. What we saw in the 60s was budget constraints with a vague nod to the ship being a submarine. Remember how Spock barked out his comments in the first few episodes of TOS?


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## Morrus

I remember a line in FASA’s Star Trek game. paraphrased, but it was that if Starfleet deployed a Constitution class cruiser to your system, you sat up and took notice. It’s like if the USA parked a Nimitz class carrier off your coastline, but x10. There’s only 12 Constitution class starships and they’re powerful, important assets. So yeah, they’re pretty big.


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## Mort

Morrus said:


> I remember a line in FASA’s Star Trek game. paraphrased, but it was that if Starfleet deployed a Constitution class cruiser to your system, you sat up and took notice. It’s like if the USA parked a Nimitz class carrier off your coastline, but x10. There’s only 12 Constitution class starships and they’re powerful, important assets. So yeah, they’re pretty big.




And that's exactly how it went down in the episode.

Pike was clearly counting on and "Oh #@$!" moment and he got one.


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## Morrus

That said, are there only two people in sickbay?


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## Zaukrie

Haven't watched it yet, as my wife wants to finish Discovery before we start a new one, but I'm excited for this. And, we are loving Discovery, even with some faults and small annoyances (every episode they are on a tight timeline, every episode they sit around and talk and hug instead of, you know, hurrying).


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## Umbran

Morrus said:


> That said, are there only two people in sickbay?




When you bring a ship into service weeks early, maybe you don't get full staff right away.


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## Morrus

Umbran said:


> When you bring a ship into service weeks early, maybe you don't get full staff right away.



Maybe. I’d have liked a line to that effect if that was the case. It jarred with me slightly.


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## Umbran

Morrus said:


> Maybe. I’d have liked a line to that effect if that was the case.




There is, in fact, just such a line.  When Pike beams onto the Enterprise, at about 13 minutes, 30 seconds into the show...

Pike: How are you, Mr. Spock.
Spock: Systems are all nominal, but as you know, no simulations were run.
Pike: Thank you Chief Kyle.
Spock: The main AI has been upgraded.  *Personnel rotation was in process. A few officers will have to billet after the mission.*  That includes the chief engineer, and a Lieutenant Kirk, whom I know you requested.
(emphasis mine)


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## billd91

Morrus said:


> Maybe. I’d have liked a line to that effect if that was the case. It jarred with me slightly.



It's on par with TOS. We rarely saw more than 2 people in sick bay in the whole of the original series.


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## bloodtide

Wow.....it was an episode of Star Trek!


Spoiler: Spoiler



Well...one small tiny annoyance at the start....the godawful windmills.  Yea...yea..yea...all the current writers/producers are Green Energy Loons so they do their activism by putting windmills in Star Trek.    

BUT.....well.....Star Trek has Warp Energy.  I'm sure one warp core could light up the whole state of Montana.  You know it's kinda like nuclear power....   

And...um....Admiral April....um, he is a bit dark skined?!?  Really they could have just done Admiral Cosby or something

Kyle, Chapple and Uhura......might be too much TOS characters: we don't need to recon everyone.

And I don't really like the dizzy silly blonde nurse Chapple....but I do like the new Uhura.

And I like the new Chief of Security Ripley  Khan

And...so...um...they sent the USS Archer to make first contact with a crew of three?  Three?!?  That seems really..really..really..really low for a crew count for a starship.  And they sent a "commander" and two astrophysicists?  Um, why not some diplomats, historians, or some social science experts? 

And...um.....all three of them beam down?  Does 23rd century Starfleet have no common sense?

So Ripley is like "raise the shields!"  and pew pew pew come the plasma torpedos....but then that is just forgotten about.  Why did "the planet" shoot?  They see a UFO and say "blow it up!"  ??

Um...so can the trigger happy missile site on the planet see the USS Archer?  Why have they not blown it up?

And for an important mission is this really the right time to try the new Polyjuice Potion? 

And......the ye old Pike Enterprise has a TRANSPORTER in sick bay?!?  Hummm....you know, THAT sounds like a good idea.....

And guess Uhura became an expert on the planet by listing to Sky News?

And...um....so the transporters can't apply an eye slave......but then Kyle just gets "ordered" to do that....and somehow does it in a couple minutes?!?


And.....for a dumb plot point.....so the Kileys watched that awesome CGI spam battle in Discovery......and...um....SOMEHOW reversed engineered a warp bomb...by..by seeing some spaceships and CGI spam?!?!?

And...um...does not Number One "let out the big secret"....now everyone will know about Spocks silly sister, magic mushrooms, and such......

Then Pike and Spock meet the President of the World and she complains about the (ahem right) extremists.  Moonbat President even says "sometimes you have to kill people that don't agree with you".  Sigh, Hollywood.

And the President of the World does not really seem to be phased by ALIENS at all.  Guess she knew about the ones in Area 52.

This reminds Pike about 21st century America...except America does not rule the world (sort of).

It was nice Ripley was given so much of a back story.......bet we will see the gorn soon

But the World War Three example was NICE!  

And guess America started WW3 with a civil war that became a world war.  bet it started right after the Federal Government of the USA made a Ministry of Truth and a Nightwatch Organization.........

But the planet chooses Peace.  

And the _USS Martin Luther King Jr. ?!?  Wonder what class that ship is?  _

And Starbase One is...is...is....The SpaceCraft Valley Forge?  Wonder if Huey, Dewey, and Louie still work there?

And...and..and....it was a WHOLE episode of Star Trek with no focus on the gender stuff of the crew!



Can't wait for more


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## Morrus

bloodtide said:


> And...um....Admiral April....um, he is a bit dark skined?!?  Really they could have just done Admiral Cosby or something



Don't.


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## Hades#2

Overall my wife and I enjoyed the episode. Our biggest gripe is with Spock and T'Pring. It felt wrong. Too emotional for Vulcans. We haven't watched Discovery so maybe they are like that in that timeline? We had other minor quibbles but we can cope with Uhura and Chapel being on the ship.


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## Bladesinger

Morrus said:


> Looked about right to me.



Overall, I liked the ship, but the swept back pylons on the warp drive just look really off to me. They are not supposed to be in use until the refit of 2271. However, I do understand that Kurtzman-Trek wouldn't know canon if 



Spoiler



it sat on its face and wiggled.


, but that is a topic for another time.


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## Janx

I recall somebody writing about how prequels run some risks....

I liked it, but have some quibbles.

This is presumably a 5 year mission, at the start.  Uhura is a Cadet. James Kirk's dad is an LT on the ship.  How old is Jim?
When Jim takes over, how much time has past?  And kid Jim has surpassed Uhura to take command in that time?

Likewise with Nurse Chapel.  How long is she gonna not advance on this ship?

This is that aforementioned prequel problems.  They bring in some folks from the future crew to connect things, but all it does is create wrinkles. At least with Spock, he's old and it plausibly could take awhile to get to the upper ranks.

The other quibble is speed of travel.  Discovery, spore drive aside, erased travel time and distance in the show.  The pacing was so bipity-bopity quick that you'd swear the writers of sponge-bob had taken over. Here, Pike only has time to brood and barely finish his drink while listening to Spock's sage advice before they are arriving at an explored planet that should be presumably just far enough away to not be well documented.

Now the old shows didn't just make us waste real time getting places either at the expense of pacing. But they did a better job of implying "time passes" before we get there. As opposed to "I'll be in my quarters", cut to quarters, takes a sip, "captain we've arrived."

Basically, I hate that about all the post-Enterprise Star Trek because they seem to have forgotten how to write that and are catering to the "want it now" 21st century mindset with no elegance or verisimilitude for the setting. How hard is it to imply it's going to take a few hours or days to get there? To reflect that there are limits to what this technology can do? So you can have believable stakes later on whether the ship can get somewhere in time? That you do have to wait. Even in the future.


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## Morrus

Janx said:


> James Kirk's dad is an LT on the ship.



Brother. George Samuel Kirk, known as Sam.

(originally played by William Shatner with a moustache in TOS)






Jim Kirk is out there somewhere presumably serving on a starship, probably a Lt. on the _USS Farragut_. He'll be showing up in s2. He takes command of the Enterprise in 2265 at the age of 32. This show is set about 2260, so Kirk is about 27, wherever he is.


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## WayneLigon

I was pretty pleased with it, and I've not been really pleased with a Star Trek show since the first couple seasons of TNG.


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## Ryujin

Morrus said:


> Brother. George Samuel Kirk, known as Sam.
> 
> (originally played by William Shatner with a moustache in TOS)
> 
> View attachment 156823
> 
> Jim Kirk is out there somewhere presumably serving on a starship, probably a Lt. on the _USS Farragut_. He'll be showing up in s2. He takes command of the Enterprise in 2265 at the age of 32. This show is set about 2260, so Kirk is about 27, wherever he is.



IIRC James Kirk was one of the youngest (if not _the_) captains in the history of Star Fleet. your timing feels about right because I believe that Pike's near fatal injuries take place while Kirk is in command of The Enterprise. 

Wasn't that actually James T. Kirk who came on the bridge, toward the end of episode 1? Seems that was the name used; "Lt. James Kirk." Yes, he should be serving on the Farragut, based on TOS references that I remember. That's where Lt. Kirk "hesitated" to fire phasers at the hemoglobin eating cloud creature, that killed a couple of hundred of the crew, including the captain. Also when he met Tyree of the Hill People, who he would later supply firearms to while in command of Enterprise.


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## Morrus

Ryujin said:


> Wasn't that actually James T. Kirk who came on the bridge, toward the end of episode 1? Seems that was the name used; "Lt. James Kirk."



No, it was his brother, George Samuel Kirk.


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## WayneLigon

JarooAshstaff said:


> I enjoyed it, I think I would have loved it as a teen when I couldn't recognize the patronizing tone.
> 
> But I don't know if this generation of kids will like it as much, the generation that saw a coup by the president, that are watching a white supremist lead Fox news, watch womens rights removed piece by piece, watch black men being murdered at traffic stops, watching war break out in Europe.
> 
> Not sure it will resonate as much with them.
> 
> But for me, love the nostalgia, love the optimism.



I think it'll resonate fairly well with them given that the take-away here is that to get to the Federation future, every existing social and political structure gets wiped out in the Eugenics Wars and the existential horror of it's aftermath. 

Looking at Memory Alpha and some other sources, apparently canon has only about 30-40 million people die in the Eugenics Wars. I'd always had the impression that it was much, much more, since that's the same number that died in WW2 and WW3/the Eugenics Wars was a full-out nuclear war. The camp we see in_ First Contact_ felt much more like what most of Earth would be like.


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## Umbran

WayneLigon said:


> Looking at Memory Alpha and some other sources, apparently canon has only about 30-40 million people die in the Eugenics Wars.




Don't presume that the canon was written with a solid understanding of casualties and their impact.  If nothing else, the original number given in Space Seed was written when the world population was less than half of its current value.

And, in the canon, numbers of 30 to 40 million sit alongside numbers like 600 million.  Don't take the exact number seriously.


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## Janx

Morrus said:


> Brother. George Samuel Kirk, known as Sam.
> 
> (originally played by William Shatner with a moustache in TOS)
> 
> View attachment 156823
> 
> Jim Kirk is out there somewhere presumably serving on a starship, probably a Lt. on the _USS Farragut_. He'll be showing up in s2. He takes command of the Enterprise in 2265 at the age of 32. This show is set about 2260, so Kirk is about 27, wherever he is.



ah yes.  the naming threw me.  That's a bit more plausible then.  

Though I don't know why James Kirk needs to show up until the final episode of the series with Pike saying, "I stand relieved." perhaps with actual voicing by Shatner...


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## trappedslider

bloodtide said:


> Wow.....it was an episode of Star Trek!
> 
> 
> 
> Can't wait for more



You must really enjoy hate-watching.....


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## Mallus

trappedslider said:


> You must really enjoy hate-watching.....



And mind-bendingly bad criticism.

My favorite part of the first episode was the big fistfight the landing party got in on their way to teaching the planet’s inhabitants about peace.

Now _that’s_ Star Trek! 

What a delightful first episode. Not a bad way to start a (hopefully) 5-year mission.


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## Arilyn

I like Chapel in this series. I never liked her in TOS and always felt bad that Majel Barret went from playing Number One to Chapel. Yuck. Years ago Majel did an interview saying that she never liked Chapel because all she did was moon over Spock. I would add she also got occasionally bullied by McCoy too. Yay! The new Chapel is nothing like the old one and I don't care that they are not even remotely alike.


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## Ryujin

Arilyn said:


> I like Chapel in this series. I never liked her in TOS and always felt bad that Majel Barret went from playing Number One to Chapel. Yuck. Years ago Majel did an interview saying that she never liked Chapel because all she did was moon over Spock. I would add she also got occasionally bullied by McCoy too. Yay! The new Chapel is nothing like the old one and I don't care that they are not even remotely alike.



The network execs simply wouldn't accept a woman as second in command, at the time, because they thought that America wouldn't accept it. Too far ahead of the curve.


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## Arilyn

Ryujin said:


> The network execs simply wouldn't accept a woman as second in command, at the time, because they thought that America wouldn't accept it. Too far ahead of the curve.



I know. Number One in the pilot elicited outraged responses from women, mind you, saying "Who does she think she is?!"


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## Ryujin

Arilyn said:


> I know. Number One in the pilot elicited outraged responses from women, mind you, saying "Who does she think she is?!"



And those would be women who were in focus groups, because the original pilot never saw air until it was chopped up for Spock's trial.


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## MGibster

Ryujin said:


> The network execs simply wouldn't accept a woman as second in command, at the time, because they thought that America wouldn't accept it. Too far ahead of the curve.



While sexism was an issue, another problem was the network didn't want Star Trek to be a vehicle for one of Gene's mistresses.


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## Benjamin Olson

Arilyn said:


> I like Chapel in this series. I never liked her in TOS and always felt bad that Majel Barret went from playing Number One to Chapel. Yuck. Years ago Majel did an interview saying that she never liked Chapel because all she did was moon over Spock. I would add she also got occasionally bullied by McCoy too. Yay! The new Chapel is nothing like the old one and I don't care that they are not even remotely alike.



I like her much better as a character in this, but my one objection is that there seems to be little reason to have her character be Chapel other than to work as many legacy characters in as possible. Maybe that's good enough reason, it just seems like the people who care enough about that to think "cool Chapel's back" are exactly the people who are going to be bothered by her having a completely different personality.

But whatever, I think having that character be Chapel was just one of those decisions that probably made more sense when they had the idea then by the final phases of production or else that they have a theory of legacy characters that I don't really understand. I'd have rather they just have this series regular character be an original one, and then have Chapel appear as a quick cameo at some point if the felt the need (extra points if she was played by Rebecca Romijn with different hair).


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## J.Quondam

Benjamin Olson said:


> (extra points if she was played by Rebecca Romijn with different hair)



Holy mackerel, that would have been brilliant!


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## Morrus

Benjamin Olson said:


> I like her much better as a character in this, but my one objection is that there seems to be little reason to have her character be Chapel other than to work as many legacy characters in as possible.



Staffing the Enterprise with a handful of Enterprise crew seems fairly reasonable to me. It’s not like Scott, Chekhov, Suku, McCoy, or Kirk are there too. It’s only a few years until Kirk takes command.


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## Ryujin

Morrus said:


> Staffing the Enterprise with a handful of Enterprise crew seems fairly reasonable to me. It’s not like Scott, Chekhov, Suku, McCoy, or Kirk are there too. It’s only a few years until Kirk takes command.



It is odd, however, to have Chapel be a civilian contractor.


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## JarooAshstaff

Morrus said:


> Staffing the Enterprise with a handful of Enterprise crew seems fairly reasonable to me.



I thought that was brilliant, can't wait to see who arrives when.


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## nyvinter

If new Chapel was jarring compared to when viewing the old show because they don't add up, then captain Pike will be be an even bigger issue considering how terribly sexist he was in the Cage.

I really loved that they updated and made a prequel based today's conventions and values rather than trying to make it very dated but fitting in perfectly. Or for that matter just keeping Pike and Spock while having a none of the other crew members show up — that would feel very improbable considering the number of crew, you don't replace all jsut becasue you get a new captain. This was the best compromise.


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## Drake2000

Just commenting to let you all know that I'm shaking an angry fist at you since this thread convinced me to add Paramount+ to my Roku. 

I guess I have some serious Trek to catch up on.


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## Hex08

trappedslider said:


> You must really enjoy hate-watching.....



Well, that wasn't very useful. Do you have any reasons for your dislike?


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## Hex08

Benjamin Olson said:


> I like her much better as a character in this, but my one objection is that there seems to be little reason to have her character be Chapel other than to work as many legacy characters in as possible.



I agree with you. I Like Chapel in the show but she is radically different than her TOS counterpart. May as well be a different character.


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## billd91

Hex08 said:


> I agree with you. I Like Chapel in the show but she is radically different than her TOS counterpart. May as well be a different character.



Too early to tell. If she does fall for Spock, as some teaser cuts suggest, then we’re definitely incorporating elements of TOS Chapel. It’s not like she was a particularly developed character then - might as well make her more interesting now when they‘ve got the opportunity.


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## Blackrat

I loved it! It was so adventure series feel, I can’t wait for the next ep.

And my absolutely favourite part. Back in the Cage, Pike makes a comment that he can’t get used to women on the bridge. Now his entire bridge crew, except for some random dude in the background and Spock are women in the first bridge scene. That was so on the nose nod/subversion to the 60’s attitudes that I just know thet will do this right in the run.


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## Blackrat

Mort said:


> One Thing I couldn't unsee. La'an Noonien-Singh looked very familiar to me, but I couldn't place it.
> 
> But then realized it wasn't the actress or even the character it was the look:



Thank you! I was left with exactly the same feeling but I couldn’t figure out what it was. That was it!


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## Mallus

I’m excited to see more of Fun Nurse Chapel. Strange New Worlds should strive for fidelity in spirit, not precise details, which the premiere episode did to great success.

I’m also good with Camina Drummer’s Sister. I’ll take more Drummer anyway I can get.


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## Mallus

Drake2000 said:


> Just commenting to let you all know that I'm shaking an angry fist at you since this thread convinced me to add Paramount+ to my Roku.



Check out the Halo series on Paramount. It’s a surprisingly solid science fiction show.


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## nyvinter

Blackrat said:


> Back in the Cage, Pike makes a comment that he can’t get used to women on the bridge.



The best thing about the Cage was Number One's visible eyeroll when Pike had his "I don't want girls on my bridge" tantrum.


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## Elodan

Really enjoyed it. 

Did they explain why Ortega ( the helmsman ) and the navigator ( forgot her name ) were wearing red instead of gold?


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## Ryujin

Elodan said:


> Really enjoyed it.
> 
> Did they explain why Ortega ( the helmsman ) and the navigator ( forgot her name ) were wearing red instead of gold?



Not that I saw. Gold would typically be Command Track, while red would be Support. That's usually Engineering, but also includes groups like Security.


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## Morrus

Ryujin said:


> Not that I saw. Gold would typically be Command Track, while red would be Support. That's usually Engineering, but also includes groups like Security.



'Operations' I believe it's called. Command, operations, science.


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## Ryujin

Morrus said:


> 'Operations' I believe it's called. Command, operations, science.



Not sure what they're calling it now, so you may well be correct. According to my ancient "Star Fleet Technical Manual" it _was_ referred to as "Engineering and Support Services." Not sure, but it appears to be from the first (Canadian) printing in 1975.


----------



## Morrus

Ryujin said:


> Not sure what they're calling it now, so you may well be correct.



I usually am.


----------



## Ryujin

Morrus said:


> I usually am.



And modest, too


----------



## Morrus

Ryujin said:


> And modest, too



Nah, just correct.


----------



## beancounter

The show is definitely better than DISCO.


----------



## Umbran

Morrus said:


> Nah, just correct.




You were both correct.  It has been called both.


----------



## Ryujin

I just remembered one bit of Star Trek lore that they played fast & loose with; The Gorn. La'an Noonien-Singh said that she was captured by The Gorn and was the only survivor. Unless this was another "classified" incident The Gorn weren't encountered until the Enterprise's Cestus 3 incident.


----------



## Blackrat

Ryujin said:


> I just remembered one bit of Star Trek lore that they played fast & loose with; The Gorn. La'an Noonien-Singh said that she was captured by The Gorn and was the only survivor. Unless this was another "classified" incident The Gorn weren't encountered until the Enterprise's Cestus 3 incident.



It’s not like they’ve been ”encountered” by the federation still. There’s one surviving civilian account, but that isn’t an official contact with the federation.


----------



## Ryujin

Blackrat said:


> It’s not like they’ve been ”encountered” by the federation still. There’s one surviving civilian account, but that isn’t an official contact with the federation.



When Kirk encountered them they appeared to be completely unknown to The Federation. Not even a rumour.


----------



## Horwath

beancounter said:


> The show is definitely better than DISCO.



talk about setting the bar low...

On topic, it's only one episode, but still better than whole two seasons of Picard and whatever amount od ST we had.


----------



## Morrus

Ryujin said:


> When Kirk encountered them they appeared to be completely unknown to The Federation. Not even a rumour.



But the Gorn knew about the Federation, so maybe it was just Kirk who didn't know about them?


----------



## Ryujin

Morrus said:


> But the Gorn knew about the Federation, so maybe it was just Kirk who didn't know about them?



I got the impression that the Gorn didn't really know about the Federation, until the "incursion" into their space at Cestus 3. I find it hard to credit that the captain of one of the premier starships in the fleet wouldn't know about even rumours of a potentially hostile race in the area in which he was patrolling, let alone that there was an officer who previously served on the ship with a connection to those rumours. Security briefings would almost certainly cover it.


----------



## Morrus

Ryujin said:


> I got the impression that the Gorn didn't really know about the Federation, until the "incursion" into their space at Cestus 3. I find it hard to credit that the captain of one of the premier starships in the fleet wouldn't know about even rumours of a potentially hostile race in the area in which he was patrolling, let alone that there was an officer who previously served on the ship with a connection to those rumours. Security briefings would almost certainly cover it.



You credit the writers with too much foresight. Sometimes you just have to go along with it. Yesterday I saw an episode where warp speed was referred to as “time warp”!


----------



## Blackrat

Morrus said:


> You credit the writers with too much foresight. Sometimes you just have to go along with it. Yesterday I saw an episode where warp speed was referred to as “time warp”!



Yeah, and the Botany Bay was launched in 1996, after the eugenics war / ww3, which took place in the early 21st century and were influenced by the Bell Riots of 2024…

One needs to give a little leeway and parse together the canons of differents eras the best one can.


----------



## Mallus

Welcome to the problems inherent in a future history first conceived 56 years ago!


----------



## Echohawk

Blackrat said:


> Yeah, and the Botany Bay was launched in 1996, after the eugenics war / ww3, which took place in the early 21st century and were influenced by the Bell Riots of 2024…



Well, that's clearly a result of the UNIT dating controversy, isn't it?


----------



## Blackrat

Echohawk said:


> Well, that's clearly a result of the UNIT dating controversy, isn't it?



I’ve been blaming Daniels and Braxton mucking about the timeline, but that works too.


----------



## Umbran

Ryujin said:


> When Kirk encountered them they appeared to be completely unknown to The Federation. Not even a rumour.




Incorrect.  I just popped over to Paramount+ and watched a chunk of "The Arena".  Early in the episode, when Kirk asks Spock about what creatures they might be facing, Spock notes there is no official information.  "Nothing scientific," he says.  But he does refer to "space legends" - which I think qualify as rumors, no?

Also, SNW is not the first to change Gorn continuity slightly.  Captain Lorca had a Gorn skeleton on board Discovery.


----------



## Ryujin

Umbran said:


> Incorrect.  Early in the episode, when Kirk asks Spock about what creatures they might be facing, Spock notes there is no official information.  "Nothing scientific," he says.  But he does refer to "space legends" - which I think qualify as rumors, no?
> 
> Also, SNW is not the first to change Gorn continuity slightly.  Captain Lorca had a Gorn skeleton on board Discovery.



The "space legends" were with respect to The Metrons who inhabited the system from which the Gorn were turning away, at the point that both ships were shut down. As to "Discovery", well I shouldn't have to comment on the show that is directly tied to this one, should I? A Gorn also appeared in "Enterprise" but that was in the Mirror Universe, in a Tholian facility.


----------



## Umbran

Ryujin said:


> The "space legends" were with respect to The Metrons who inhabited the system from which the Gorn were turning away, at the point that both ships were shut down.




Incorrect.  The question is asked and answered at the beginning of the chase (about 14 minutes, 18 seconds into the episode).  The Gorn ship is still moving at Warp 6, and the Metron's system has not yet been seen.  In context, Kirk is asking hoping to get information about the Gorn, and Spock is replying to that inquiry.

You may choose to interpret that the space legends are solely about the Metrons, but Spock mentions the legends before the Metrons are present.  Spock, at least thinks some of them might be about the Gorn.  And who are we to nayasy Spock?



Ryujin said:


> As to "Discovery", well I shouldn't have to comment on the show that is directly tied to this one, should I?




Dude, the complaint was that SNW was playing fast and loose with Trek lore.  I'm noting that the barn door on this was opened _several years ago_.  The lore was already changed, so this item really isn't "fast and loose" any more - it is now consistent with the adjusted canon - The Arena was the first _official_ contact with the Federation, not the absolute first time any human had ever had any evidence of them.


----------



## Ryujin

Umbran said:


> Incorrect.  The question is asked and answered at the beginning of the chase (about 14 minutes, 18 seconds into the episode).  The Gorn ship is still moving at Warp 6, and the Metron's system has not yet been seen.  In context, Kirk is asking hoping to get information about the Gorn, and Spock is replying to that inquiry.
> 
> You may choose to interpret that the space legends are solely about the Metrons, but Spock mentions the legends before the Metrons are present.  Spock, at least thinks some of them might be about the Gorn.  And who are we to nayasy Spock?



I'll have to rewatch the episode for verification of that.


Umbran said:


> Dude, the complaint was that SNW was playing fast and loose with Trek lore.  I'm noting that the barn door on this was opened _several years ago_.  The lore was already changed, so this item really isn't "fast and loose" any more - it is now consistent with the adjusted canon - The Arena was the first _official_ contact with the Federation, not the absolute first time any human had ever had any evidence of them.



"Opening the barn door" on the show from which this one is a spin-off is a pretty low bar


----------



## Arilyn

Umbran said:


> Incorrect.  The question is asked and answered at the beginning of the chase (about 14 minutes, 18 seconds into the episode).  The Gorn ship is still moving at Warp 6, and the Metron's system has not yet been seen.  In context, Kirk is asking hoping to get information about the Gorn, and Spock is replying to that inquiry.



Are you part Vulcan? Just asking cause I as I read your reply I realized I had Spock's voice in my head. (Nimoy version)


----------



## Umbran

Ryujin said:


> I'll have to rewatch the episode for verification of that.




I mean, I just said I did, to the point of beign able to quote the time down to within a second.  If you don't trust that I can watch TV clearly... well fine then, don't trust me 



Ryujin said:


> "Opening the barn door" on the show from which this one is a spin-off is a pretty low bar




I don't know what this is supposed to mean.


----------



## Ryujin

Umbran said:


> I mean, I just said I did, to the point of beign able to quote the time down to within a second.  If you don't trust that I can watch TV clearly... well fine then, don't trust me
> 
> I don't know what this is supposed to mean.



It means that saying that the altered canon in a show, that is supported by the altered canon from which that show is a spin-off, doesn't really do anything more than showing that one show altered canon.


----------



## Hex08

Ryujin said:


> It means that saying that the altered canon in a show, that is supported by the altered canon from which that show is a spin-off, doesn't really do anything more than showing that one show altered canon.



Maybe I'm missing something here but since that one show is part of the whole franchise then that one show altering canon means it's altered for the entire franchise, no? Someone can choose to ignore it as a fan and have their own "personal canon", but the franchise cannon is now changed.


----------



## Ryujin

Hex08 said:


> Maybe I'm missing something here but since that one show is part of the whole franchise then that one show altering canon means it's altered for the entire franchise, no? Someone can choose to ignore it as a fan and have their own "personal canon", but the franchise cannon is now changed.



I was pointing out the change in canon. Then a supporting argument that it wasn't a change in canon was that the show from which this one was spun off had the same canon. I view that as pretty much saying that the canon is preexisting, because essentially the same show stated it previously.


----------



## Stalker0

I mean, there's canon and then there's canon. Anyone remember the Warp 5 speed limit introduced in TNG, does any ST show really follow that now?

I feel like there are going to be a few minor details that the new shows might alter a bit, but as long as it doesn't really change the core plot I am fine with it. Like if they said the Kitomer Accords never took place, THAT would be a huge change in canon. Changing what part of the Federation met the Gorn with a few years difference, yeah not that big a deal to me.


----------



## Mallus

Remember when the Romulans didn’t have FTL drives back in “Balance of Terror”? I guess theirs was a very small Star Empire. Minor canon tweaks can be a good thing!


----------



## Umbran

Ryujin said:


> It means that saying that the altered canon in a show, that is supported by the altered canon from which that show is a spin-off, doesn't really do anything more than showing that one show altered canon.




Harping on the "spin off" does not seem to be adding any meaning to the point.  What's the purpose you have in repeating it?

Or, shall we talk about how the original canon had been set before most of the folks on this discussion board were born, and then left untouched.  Is there some reason we are supposed to care?


----------



## Ryujin

Umbran said:


> Harping on the "spin off" does not seem to be adding any meaning to the point.  What's the purpose you have in repeating it?
> 
> Or, shall we talk about how the original canon had been set before most of the folks on this discussion board were born, and then left untouched.  Is there some reason we are supposed to care?



OK, I'm just going to let it lay now. I"m done.


----------



## JarooAshstaff

Second episode is a bit brutal.  Its like we are back to kids writing episodes again for adults.  Characters making nonsensical out of character decisions.  Cadets making fun of officers and acting more like young high school kids than elite cadets on the worlds premier star ship.


----------



## Vael

I loved this one. Uhura was really good, a good mix of youthful prickly bravado and insecurity, I enjoyed Pike in Dad mode hosting dinner. I'm more and more impressed with Ethan Peck's version of Spock.

And hot darn if Enterprise sailing through space dodging torpedoes is just a gorgeous look.


----------



## Mort

JarooAshstaff said:


> Second episode is a bit brutal.  Its like we are back to kids writing episodes again for adults.  Characters making nonsensical out of character decisions.  Cadets making fun of officers and acting more like young high school kids than elite cadets on the worlds premier star ship.




I think that's a bit harsh. The only instance where a cadet (there's just one featured) makes fun of an officer is in an informal setting and only after the officers had been ribbing/messing with her already.

The only possible nonsensical decision I can think of was 



Spoiler



kirk being WAY to nonchalant and approaching the egg thingy


 but that wasn't too bad.

As for the rest? I thought it was a great episode. Completely "star trek" situation on two different fronts. 

The characters kept it professional but light (I really like Mount's take on Pike). And they even recognized in the dialogue that the situation itself was so deadly it was absurd.

Both this and the opening episode were really strong and if they keep this quality up, the series will be truly amazing.


----------



## Yora

Hex08 said:


> Personally, I loved it. My spoiler free review is that I feel like I have watched my first real Star Trek show in decades. I like Picard and really enjoy Lower Decks but Strange New Worlds, I thought, really captured the feeling of Trek. It's not nearly as dark as Disco or Picard, visually or thematically. The casting is really good, Anson Mount especially, although Nurse Chapel seems like a totally different person. It does some fiddly things with the canon timeline but that doesn't bug me much. My only real complaint is the size of the ship, Enterprise looks really good but it's way too big



Really not knowing anything about the show except the title sounding familiar, does this mean this is a reboot of the Original Series?


----------



## Hex08

Yora said:


> Really not knowing anything about the show except the title sounding familiar, does this mean this is a reboot of the Original Series?



It's a prequel to the original series. It's the adventures of the USS Enterprise under the command of Captain Pike, the commander before Captain Kirk.


----------



## Vael

Mort said:


> Both this and the opening episode were really strong and if they keep this quality up, the series will be truly amazing.




It's way too early to say this, but still, I kinda want to put down this marker ... SNW will have the best first season of all the Trek series. I've been really impressed how quickly the show gets going and it just feels so confident.


----------



## Stalker0

Damn fine second episode, another winner. The dynamic between Spock and Uhura is solid. Spock is a classic boss motiff, he wants to do right by his people but he has trouble connecting, and he's "all business". But when he does connect, he really nails it, because he's such a strong person that people crave his respect. I have worked with many such people, and can really understand it.

I like how Pike is seeing his future as both a burden but also a "heroic responsibility". He's looking at the lives he will save and trying to take comfort that he goes out doing some real good. That's a great mentality, much for than the fatalistic outlook I had feared.

If I were to nitpick anything, its the "Uhura sings a different bar and suddenly gets the shields down". That pretty much comes out of left field, all she know is that it communicates with music but has no idea how to really communicate. But I feel that's kind of the difference between TOS and TNG styles, TOS was more seat of your pants "let it ride", whereas TNG was a bit more focused on coming out with rationales (even if it was technobabble).

Also major visual probs on the Enterprise flying through the cloud, and you can see the tiny shield deflections of the small asteroids off the ship. That was a really nice touch.


----------



## nyvinter

Hex08 said:


> It's a prequel to the original series. It's the adventures of the USS Enterprise under the command of Captain Pike, the commander before Captain Kirk.



I will add this: for a prequel it's very dedicated into making it into a show of today rather than one that will slot in seamlessly with TOS. Which IMO is the right choice.


----------



## Hex08

Stalker0 said:


> even if it was technobabble



I so don't miss the technobabble of the TNG era. I usually found it more distracting than anything else.


----------



## Ryujin

Hex08 said:


> I so don't miss the technobabble of the TNG era. I usually found it more distracting than anything else.



I'm sure that they'll eventually reverse the polarity of the Heisenberg Compensators, at some point


----------



## Arilyn

Excellent second episode. I love the fact that the crew did not interact with the aliens on the planet at all.


----------



## Hex08

The second episode was really good. Prior to this the only Star Trek show that had a really large cast and handled them well was DS9 and SNW followed in its tradition. Many characters had moments to shine, none were marginalized, and it was a true team effort resolving the conflict. The interpersonal relationships are believable and fun to watch.


----------



## BookTenTiger

Super fun show! I haven't watched any Star Trek past Deep Space 9, but this is a real treat. I love how it's focusing on the Next Generation style stories of solving problems through science, negotiation, and clever thinking. That's my cup of (Earl Grey, hot) tea!

My only problem with the first episode was how dark it was. It was like all the lights on the ship were dimmed. Then I realized my screen was at a really low brightness setting and the show got even better.


----------



## Horwath

Wow,

2nd episode even better than 1st.

I hope I don't jinx it, but, like they realized what dumpster fire STD and Picard(mostly) was.

Also, channeling Sarah Connor was a nice touch, even if it was stolen


----------



## Hades#2

I enjoyed this episode more than the first. Then again, in my experience, most 1st episodes are a little weak. The character development is going nicely thus far. The only character I would drop would be Lt. Kirk. The character is unnecessary. I didn't like Nurse Chapel in the first episode but the character might get better. I know the character has to be more than she was in TOS but the character felt wrong in the first episode. I can't pinpoint exactly what it is, just a feeling or my impression.


----------



## Rabulias

Hades#2 said:


> The only character I would drop would be Lt. Kirk.



I have a suspicion one reason he is on the ship is to facilitate his brother's appearance in season 2.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

I think part of Nurse Chapel's meta-story will be to teach us, who are trained by historical elite-ism, to think of "nurse" as somehow "inferior" to "doctor" when in reality, it is a _different calling_. 

In a hopeful, Trekian future, presumably nurses get the respect they deserve, and their talents and training expanded appropriately. 

As soon as people can stop asking how she can do so much when she's "_just_ a nurse", a worthy battle will be won.


----------



## Hades#2

Rabulias said:


> I have a suspicion one reason he is on the ship is to facilitate his brother's appearance in season 2.



Perhaps but I still feel like the character isn't needed. There are plenty of interesting characters on the ship and I wouldn't mind seeing a few stories with minor characters doing something useful and important. Most of the time in TOS the minor characters would get killed off, get infected with a virus, or some other random fate. I like Lower Decks as it shows ordinary crew doing their jobs and, occasionally getting in trouble or helping the officers save the day.


----------



## Ryujin

FitzTheRuke said:


> I think part of Nurse Chapel's meta-story will be to teach us, who are trained by historical elite-ism, to think of "nurse" as somehow "inferior" to "doctor" when in reality, it is a _different calling_.
> 
> In a hopeful, Trekian future, presumably nurses get the respect they deserve, and their talents and training expanded appropriately.
> 
> As soon as people can stop asking how she can do so much when she's "_just_ a nurse", a worthy battle will be won.



I quite like the role playing games, like Space Opera, that had a clear demarcation between Doctors and MedTechs (nurses/paramedics, etc.) A doctor is a scientist with a lot of theoretical knowledge, plus a bit of practical knowledge. The MedTech is the person who can put you back together. That's not quite how it is in the real world, but it's a handy allegory.


----------



## bloodtide

S1E2

Well, this was a nice character episode.  Always nice to have a "get to know your main characters more" event.  

Did we miss a bit where the Enterprise Officially embarked on a Five Year Mission?

Captain Pike is MUCH more casual with his crew then all other Starfleet Captains we have seen combined.   It's a nice change.

Uhura's parents died in a shuttle craft accident.....wonder why all Star Trek writers have such a hard time thinking of any accident other then that one?  It just gets over used.  

So they beam over to the mysterious comet.....to find it has a prefect Earth like atmosphere.  Ok, so the only reason it has air is they want you to see the actors faces....but then why even have space suits in the first place?  

But...er....why does the comet have Earth like air again?  They kind of skip this.  "Oh there is air, helmets off!"

And if your going to say the comet did it to welcome them aboard......then why not turn off the radiation too.?

And they bring along Cadet Uhura along as she is a linguist.....but she is also a Cadet.  Was Sam Kirk also a linguist?  It's a little odd to just toss a cadet into a possibly deadly situation with a "good luck, try not to die".  There should have been a more senior communication officer along for the trip...you know like a mentor.

Is this Kirks first away team mission?  How does he know "don't just touch the big glowly thing"?

And it sure is amazing that Cadet Uhura is also a music expert because, BY PURE CHANCE, the Mysterious Comet communicated by music.  

Of course, the sci fi problem here is music and sound is not quite a universal thing.  First what your air is made of effects sounds, but the big one is the human ear.  Not only does a human ear need Earth like air to work, but a human ear can only hear a set range of sounds.  Simply put, alien music would not sound good to humans and a human would be unlikely to hear all of it anyway.      

Was this Number Ones day off or something?  Don't first officers normally lead Away Teams?

Spock has the problem highlighted a lot in this epsiode.  Though it's a common Star Trek problem.  So Spock is all alien and clueless of human social things.  Worse, Spock is not the best commanding officer.  Except Spock has been in Starfleet for a least ten or so years living and working with humans.  A LOT of the "Spock does not know or understand humans" would have been gone over when he was a Cadet and Ensign.  And then toss in Discovery that Spock has a human(step) mom and human sister.  Plus he already did a five year mission with Pike.  And did Spock have no command classes at Starfleet...you know where they teach people how to be in command?  He has years of being in the command structure, he must have seen dozens of "peep talks" and other human social things.  Logically Spock would not be so Clueless.

So why were the Comet Shepherds SO far behind the comet.  If the Mystery Comet had no shields then the Enterprise could have blown it up or moved it.  But it takes them forever to come over and say "don't".

And sure the "shepherd" ship is all powerful so they can't fight it....

Sigh Spock zooms through CGI Spam to save the day.  Boring.  But I guess some viewers like all that mess?  But the idea of "being the galaxies best most awesome radical cool stunt flier" is what saves the day is just dumb.  


B


----------



## Mallus

I don’t watch shows I like as faithfully as you watch shows you hate, @bloodtide .


----------



## Benjamin Olson

bloodtide said:


> Uhura's parents died in a shuttle craft accident.....wonder why all Star Trek writers have such a hard time thinking of any accident other then that one? It just gets over used.



Because it's the spacey-future equivalent of a car accident, the most common reason for multiple family members to abruptly and unexpectedly die in the contemporary West. It neatly explains why multiple family members would die all at once without audience members requiring further explanation. It's what you do when you want the character's family to be dead but you don't want the manner of death to be an important plot point or something that gives the audience expectations that it will be a plot point.


----------



## Hex08

.


----------



## damiller

I'm in. 

I didn't realize how dark Discovery was. I like it but I didn't realize it isn't quite what I want from my Trek. I like the optimism. I like the characters. I like the look of the show.


----------



## Janx

Hex08 said:


> I so don't miss the technobabble of the TNG era. I usually found it more distracting than anything else.



side note: apparently one writer hated Wesley so much that he'd write very long technobabbles just to make him sound worse.

Will wrote that he ran into the writer recently and they apologized.

so some of that in TNG was just jerks.


----------



## Stalker0

Third episode was pretty good, weaker than the other two but still quite enjoyable.

I'm liking our surly engineer Hammer. The Unas / L'ann switcheroo was neat. I think we all went into the series thinking L'ann was going to be augmented, only to find out she hates augments and its Unas whose augmented. A neat touch.

That said, it does open up a pretty big plot concern. When Bashir on DS9 was revealed as an augment, we got a backstory of parents who had actively hid his condition all his life, plus Bashir's career in medical gave him the knowledge and access to hide his condition (aka if anyone was going to be able to keep their genetic condition a secret, it would be someone in medical). So it made a lot of sense. The idea that a commander of the federation flagship could hide their condition, ESPECIALLY from the chief medical officer (as there would of course be routine scans and physicals)....the kindest phrase is "strains belief", but I could easily go into "now that is some b*** ****". Its the first real crack in the so far shining armor of the show to me.

It would have gone over a lot smoother if the Dr knew about the commander, AND the commander knew about the Dr's daughter. That would have been an interesting little conspiracy the two had between them, maybe the Commander even helped get the dr on the ship so he can perform all her tests, etc. Right now it all feels just a little too clean, "oh you have been hiding your condition from us for years, eh its fine. Oh Dr you were conducting some unauthorized medical procedures, eh its fine (at least with this one there is the notion that the commander would keep the dr's secret, presuming it help him to keep hers)". L'anns "you now represent everything I hate....but here have some strawberries". I actually wish they had just saved that L'ann / Unas scene for later, got it more time and oomph. This is theoretically a MAJOR thing between these characters, my hope is that it will come back in future episodes, as these two still have a lot of issues to work through.

It at least helped to explain the "overly dramatic walk" the commander had carrying Hammer. When I first saw that I was like, "what is going on this is so weird?" but after the reveal its, "oh you all are saying she's got enhanced strength, got it".

At the end of the day, Bashir's reveal was just plain better. It was a cool buildup, explained some of Bashir's previous behavior, and the scene at the end when him and Miles are talking, and Miles is still willing to play darts with him (a genuine sign of acceptance), but also has him take a few steps back (showing a respect for the skills), to me was the perfect way to show inclusion instead of talking about it.


----------



## Mort

Stalker0 said:


> Third episode was pretty good, weaker than the other two but still quite enjoyable.
> 
> I'm liking our surly engineer Hammer. The Unas / L'ann switcheroo was neat. I think we all went into the series thinking L'ann was going to be augmented, only to find out she hates augments and its Unas whose augmented. A neat touch.
> 
> That said, it does open up a pretty big plot concern. When Bashir on DS9 was revealed as an augment, we got a backstory of parents who had actively hid his condition all his life, plus Bashir's career in medical gave him the knowledge and access to hide his condition (aka if anyone was going to be able to keep their genetic condition a secret, it would be someone in medical). So it made a lot of sense. The idea that a commander of the federation flagship could hide their condition, ESPECIALLY from the chief medical officer (as there would of course be routine scans and physicals)....the kindest phrase is "strains belief", but I could easily go into "now that is some b*** ****". Its the first real crack in the so far shining armor of the show to me.
> 
> It would have gone over a lot smoother if the Dr knew about the commander, AND the commander knew about the Dr's daughter. That would have been an interesting little conspiracy the two had between them, maybe the Commander even helped get the dr on the ship so he can perform all her tests, etc. Right now it all feels just a little too clean, "oh you have been hiding your condition from us for years, eh its fine. Oh Dr you were conducting some unauthorized medical procedures, eh its fine (at least with this one there is the notion that the commander would keep the dr's secret, presuming it help him to keep hers)". L'anns "you now represent everything I hate....but here have some strawberries". I actually wish they had just saved that L'ann / Unas scene for later, got it more time and oomph. This is theoretically a MAJOR thing between these characters, my hope is that it will come back in future episodes, as these two still have a lot of issues to work through.
> 
> It at least helped to explain the "overly dramatic walk" the commander had carrying Hammer. When I first saw that I was like, "what is going on this is so weird?" but after the reveal its, "oh you all are saying she's got enhanced strength, got it".
> 
> At the end of the day, Bashir's reveal was just plain better. It was a cool buildup, explained some of Bashir's previous behavior, and the scene at the end when him and Miles are talking, and Miles is still willing to play darts with him (a genuine sign of acceptance), but also has him take a few steps back (showing a respect for the skills), to me was the perfect way to show inclusion instead of talking about it.




I agree with pretty much all of this. Good episode but a bit weaker than the prior two.

Seems a running theme will be: These aliens aren't what you think they are.

Though I will say, the doctor's actions as understandable and even laudable as they are (with his "secret") are crazy bad. As I often told my son when he was young "I didn't realize that was going to happen..." is not an excuse for doing something that goes wrong! And he's clearly been hiding it for a long time (nevermind the logistics of hiding what he's hiding). It's one of those things that the writers clearly thought "Wouldn't it be cool if..." without thinking through how absurd the situation is!


----------



## Mallus

I loved this one. 'Mystery contagion' is such a classic Star Trek plot, and the way Ghosts of Illyria combined it with multiple character reveals and an admission (then condemnation) of the Federation's prejudice toward the genetic modified made it feel new.

But totally agree that M'Benga and Number One should have known each others secrets. Without the Chief Medical officers help, it really strain credulity -- and of course by that I mean 'Star Trek credulity' -- for her to be posted to the flagship.


----------



## Morrus

That's a high percentage of command staff who are hiding court-martial level secrets! 

Anyway, I liked this, but agree the previous two were stronger. This one felt a lot like a TNG episode (in a good way).

Sick bay still seems understaffed to me!

It's only the captain who gets the giant apartment then; most of the crew bunk up 3 to a cabin. Makes sense.


----------



## Stalker0

Morrus said:


> Sick bay still seems understaffed to me!



Meanwhile....at Starfleet Command.

Personnel Requisitions Officer: Ug, the Enterprise has put in more medical staffing requests....AGAIN. I swear, they deal with one little shipwide plague and suddenly they feel they can drain the coffers. I need some coffee.


----------



## Benjamin Olson

Mort said:


> Seems a running theme will be: These aliens aren't what you think they are.



Hence the strangeness of the new worlds.


----------



## Ryujin

It's good to see Ontario Place being used in a SciFi project again. 









						Google Maps
					

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




					goo.gl


----------



## Umbran

Stalker0 said:


> The idea that a commander of the federation flagship could hide their condition, ESPECIALLY from the chief medical officer (as there would of course be routine scans and physicals)....the kindest phrase is "strains belief", but I could easily go into "now that is some b*** ****".




It has long been known that many issues in most Trek series could have been prevented with decent background checks.  



Mort said:


> Though I will say, the doctor's actions as understandable and even laudable as they are (with his "secret") are crazy bad.




This kind of behavior may give us a reason why Dr. McCoy eventually becomes Chief Medical Officer over Dr. M'Benga.


----------



## Umbran

Mallus said:


> I loved this one. 'Mystery contagion' is such a classic Star Trek plot...




Yeah.  The science of it was _soooo bad_.  It could only be a classic Trek plot.


----------



## Mallus

Umbran said:


> Yeah.  The science of it was _soooo bad_.  It could only be a classic Trek plot.



All part of the charm.


----------



## Blackrat

So, they’ve gone digging through some seriously old novels to build her background. It was in some novel from the 80’s (Vulcan’s Glory?) that established her as Illyrian. I really like them taking these old noncanon stories into consideration.


----------



## Hex08

I agree that while it was a good episode but it was the weakest of the three so far. I didn't care for it turning out that Number One was an Illyrian and an augment, it just felt forced to me. I also didn't care for the reveal that M'Benga was keeping his daughter in the pattern buffer especially since cryogenic sleep is a thing in Trek. On the other hand, I am really beginning to like La'an a lot.


----------



## Ryujin

Hex08 said:


> I agree that while it was a good episode but it was the weakest of the three so far. I didn't care for it turning out that Number One was an Illyrian and an augment, it just felt forced to me. I also didn't care for the reveal that M'Benga was keeping his daughter in the pattern buffer especially since cryogenic sleep is a thing in Trek. On the other hand, I am really beginning to like La'an a lot.



And so is patterns degrading over a fairly short time, in the pattern buffer.


----------



## Umbran

Ryujin said:


> And so is patterns degrading over a fairly short time, in the pattern buffer.




Define "fairly short".  And he notes that he has to re-materialize her on a regular basis, to get around the problem.


----------



## Blackrat

Umbran said:


> Define "fairly short".  And he notes that he has to re-materialize her on a regular basis, to get around the problem.



Somewhere around 90 seconds I believe has been established. Beyond that has always been a risky exception. But, if a genius like Scott can get that up to 75 years, I don’t find it too unbelievable for someone to rig it for regular intervals.


----------



## Arilyn

Umbran said:


> Yeah.  The science of it was _soooo bad_.  It could only be a classic Trek plot.



The science is usually soooo bad, even in newer Trek.   But yeah, the flavour of bad science in this one feels like classic Trek, and I loved it.


----------



## Ryujin

Blackrat said:


> Somewhere around 90 seconds I believe has been established. Beyond that has always been a risky exception. But, if a genius like Scott can get that up to 75 years, I don’t find it too unbelievable for someone to rig it for regular intervals.



That's also how I remember it. And even though Scotty uped the ante, as he so often did, the other person that was in the transporter had their pattern so degraded that it was unrecoverable.


----------



## Mort

Blackrat said:


> Somewhere around 90 seconds I believe has been established. Beyond that has always been a risky exception. But, if a genius like Scott can get that up to 75 years, I don’t find it too unbelievable for someone to rig it for regular intervals.




And as, you said, why is it even necessary? I mean, why use risky technology that's putting the ship in danger when easy safe crio tech has been shown to be available?

It's also pretty head scratchy that - sure they can cure a completely unheard of before contagion by episodes end but here's the doctor facing a disease that's stymied medicine for who knows how long. 

I get that the writers were going for the dichotomy - but it strains suspension of disbelief to the breaking point. 

But both are pretty classic star trek tropes - and the episode itself was still in the decent area - at least for me.


----------



## Umbran

Mort said:


> It's also pretty head scratchy that - sure they can cure a completely unheard of before contagion by episodes end but here's the doctor facing a disease that's stymied medicine for who knows how long.




In a sense they don't cure the contagion in the episode.  A cure is _handed to them_ (in the form of La'an's "chimerical antibodies"), and they distribute that around.  Goodness only knows what's going into the official report, such that it doesn't reveal Number One's secret to Starfleet Command.



Mort said:


> I get that the writers were going for the dichotomy - but it strains suspension of disbelief to the breaking point.




If you want a real straining of suspension of disbelief - put together how they are allowed to genetically modify crew to fit in with an alien species in the first episode, but the third hinges on how genetic modification is banned...


----------



## Arilyn

Umbran said:


> You want a real straining of suspension of disbelief - put together how they are allowed to genetically modify crew to fit in with an alien species in the first episode, but the third hinges on how genetic modification is banned...



I think because it's reversible? The Federation is not consistent or logical about this subject, which may be a deliberate point the show is making?


----------



## Mort

Umbran said:


> In a sense they don't cure the contagion in the episode.  A cure is _handed to them_ (in the form of La'an's "chimerical antibodies"), and they distribute that around.  Goodness only knows what's going into the official report, such that it doesn't reveal Number One's secret to Starfleet Command.




Sure, and yet the same trick won't work or even help with the Doctor's daughter because reasons. Sure the diseases are different but you'd think the doctor would use some of those "chimerical antibodies" for yet another miracle cure. But nope -because plot.



Umbran said:


> If you want a real straining of suspension of disbelief - put together how they are allowed to genetically modify crew to fit in with an alien species in the first episode, but the third hinges on how genetic modification is banned...



Yeah, you'd think that would be a no go for several reasons - and yet it pushes the plot along - so they're going with it.


----------



## Stalker0

Umbran said:


> It has long been known that many issues in most Trek series could have been prevented with decent background checks.



It’s a bit more than a background check though, if it was just that I could buy it. She’s gone her entire career without being in an intense situation and using her super strength?

She has been able to fool every ships doctor she has ever served with…even though we just learn her immune system is radically different than a humans?

With Bashir we had him being the dr that does all the screenings, so it’s a lot more credible he could pull it off. (Reality is it would still have been crazy hard, but him being the dr gives you that thread of belief to hold on to).

But I just can’t see how Unas could do it without conspiracy with the medical Corp


----------



## Ryujin

Augments aside, you would think that her not being, you know, _human_ would show up on a fairly standard genetic scan.


----------



## Blackrat

Ryujin said:


> Augments aside, you would think that her not being, you know, _human_ would show up on a fairly standard genetic scan.



We are on a time period when klingons can pose as humans pretty easily, and only a tribble manages to out them…

Not that I don’t agree with you, but this is not exactly unprecedented


----------



## Mort

Stalker0 said:


> It’s a bit more than a background check though, if it was just that I could buy it. She’s gone her entire career without being in an intense situation and using her super strength?




Especially considering she's in a "critical" situation like every 5 minutes.

Heck it was telegraphed in THIS episode (obviously intentionally) when another crew member looks shocked at how easily she was able to carry a clearly heavy crew member with ease.

But yeah, the whole no issues with the billion medical screenings she's obviously had is a bit more glaring than even that.


----------



## Mallus

Mort said:


> Sure, and yet the same trick won't work or even help with the Doctor's daughter because reasons. Sure the diseases are different but you'd think the doctor would use some of those "chimerical antibodies" for yet another miracle cure. But nope -because plot.



Star Trek isn't about scientific and technological extrapolation. It's just not that kind of science fiction.


----------



## Mallus

Blackrat said:


> We are on a time period when klingons can pose as humans pretty easily, and only a tribble manages to out them…
> 
> Not that I don’t agree with you, but this is not exactly unprecedented



Slap some ears on Kirk and he can pass for a Romulan!


----------



## Ryujin

Blackrat said:


> We are on a time period when klingons can pose as humans pretty easily, and only a tribble manages to out them…
> 
> Not that I don’t agree with you, but this is not exactly unprecedented



True enough. Maybe they were a little more lax with bureaucratic functionaries


----------



## Umbran

Stalker0 said:


> It’s a bit more than a background check though, if it was just that I could buy it. She’s gone her entire career without being in an intense situation and using her super strength?




My point being that the thing you are concerned about here couldn't happen if they did basic background and medical checks on people trying to join Starfleet.


----------



## Benjamin Olson

Mallus said:


> But totally agree that M'Benga and Number One should have known each others secrets. Without the Chief Medical officers help, it really strain credulity -- and of course by that I mean 'Star Trek credulity' -- for her to be posted to the flagship.




Maybe it's just me but, based on him being almost completely unphased by the reveal and immediately knowing that her blood didn't have anything that could cure the others it feels like maybe M'Benga had figured her out before hand, and also perhaps evaluated whether he could somehow use Illyrianess to cure his daughter. I'm not saying it's quite "in the episode", but I wouldn't be surprised if it was in some draft of the script or some cut of the episode and is coloring the particular lines and the actor's performance. His behavior in the reveal scene actually makes more sense if you read him as having figured her out before hand. 

My guess would be that they just cut some sort of "when did you figure it out" business at the end of the episode for pacing reasons. Or else Babs Olusanmokun was handed a scene where his character seemed to have way too much knowledge at the tip of his fingers on the usefulness of Illyrian blood in synthesizing cures for non Illyrians and made a character decision to perform the scene as if he had already figured it out and considered the matter. Or he's just playing the character as exhausted and I'm reading too much into it.


----------



## Hex08

Mallus said:


> Star Trek isn't about scientific and technological extrapolation. It's just not that kind of science fiction.



You're right, it's not. That's why it always amuses me when someone calls Trek "hard sci-fi".


----------



## Benjamin Olson

Hex08 said:


> You're right, it's not. That's why it always amuses me when someone calls Trek "hard sci-fi".



Hard sci-fi only in the sense that it is (usually) actually sci-fi in a world where a lot of space fantasy gets called sci-fi.


----------



## Rabulias

It's all relative. Compared to _Star Wars_, _Star Trek _is hard sci-fi.


----------



## Hex08

Benjamin Olson said:


> Hard sci-fi only in the sense that it is (usually) actually sci-fi in a world where a lot of space fantasy gets called sci-fi.



Hard sci-fi, as I understand it, is a type of sci-fi that tries to make the science credible and does it's best to adhere to actual scientific concepts with some level of accuracy. Obviously, sci-fi generally can't be a slave to actual scientific accuracy since some story concepts may be needed that may not be scientifically accurate but are necessary story elements. The Expanse novels and show are a good example of hard sci-fi, when possible they strive for accuracy but when technology like the protomolecule is introduced science goes out the window. Star Trek is more traditional sci-fi where scientific accuracy isn't really relevant to the story but tries to be somewhat internally consistent but certainly isn't "hard sci-fi". Science fantasy is some thing like Star Wars, because it's has things like space wizards. I would argue that  just because Star Trek isn't space fantasy that doesn't make it hard sci-fi.

Good examples of hard sci-fi, other than The Expanse, that I have read are the Revelation Space books by Alistair Reynolds or The Martian by Andy Wier.

edited to add - Here is a good definition of hard sci-fi and examples that I found.





						Hard Science Fiction: 16 Examples of Hard Science Fiction - 2023 - MasterClass
					

Some science fiction novels take painstaking care to imbue their pages with scientific accuracy. This has led to the rise of a subgenre called hard science fiction, or hard sci-fi.




					www.masterclass.com


----------



## bloodtide

S1E3

Well, this is a mixed up episode.  I think it might have been a rough draft written on a napkin and they had to make episode three for some reason.  

Pike goes on this Away team just so the plot can happen...sigh.  

And like many sad "new" type shows...they have to have "action" ALL the time so a certain type of person in the aduiance does not get bored.  Like where Pike and Spock "run" from a storm......

Guess they waited three whole shows before they started to ruin characters with New Trek Problems.  As everyone must have 'secret problems' that make them different. 

So Number One gets effected by something....and lies about it.  Just like every idiot character ever in fiction.  

So Chief Engineer says he will run a "level 5 diagnostic" that will take all night ....um, does someone not know the Star Trek diagnostic scale goes from 5 "just look at it" to 1 "take offline and disassemble"?

Is there some reason no one says the word quarantine?  

So cadet quarters are unisex?  And are HUGE!

But cadets sleep in tiny closets?  That room could hold several king size beds.....

So why does Hemmer think a glowing part of the mantle will be "so bright"?  Artifical light is way, way, way, way more bright then any natural light.  They have lamps one billion times brighter then the sun.  

The "she carries the man down the hallway" sure is a long bit.

And now they ruin Una....she was an interesting strong female character....and sigh, now she is just a silly Super Hero.  Guess she is now like a Captain Marvel rip off now?  How lame.... 

And sure Una hid her race and augment status....somehow?  

And...er....why do some people just turn on a light to get more light....and some are like "blow up the ship!"

I guess Una walked to the warp core to stop Laan?  Wonder why she did not fly with her super powers? 

Wonder why the warp core is not connected to the computer voice control?  Or why could not Una, even more so as "acting captain" not over ride the warp core tampering?  Or localize the command codes?

Pike worries the storm might flatten the house.....the house that has stood for years and years of storms?

And they cure the crew in seconds?

And sigh the broken doctor has been hiding his daughter in the sick bay pattern buffer?  So they can't use that transporter, right?

And did M'Benga guard the room 24/7...even during the refit?  

And does now broken and ruined and criminal Una tell Pike about broken and criminal M'Benga?  Or does she further ruin her character by keeping another secret?

And...um...when Doc beams his daughter out to read her a story....um, does not her skicness spread?  He just said a couple minutes ago the transport kept her in stasis...

And Pike seems a little odd not caring he was tricked and lied too by someone he THOUGHT he could trust.

Or will Pike join with the rest of his criminal crew and hide Una from Starfleet?

So, now half the crew are criminal lying disloyal selfish monsters.....and the creators think this is a good thing?  Like it's cool?


----------



## Umbran

Hex08 said:


> Hard sci-fi, as I understand it, is a type of sci-fi that tries to make the science credible and does it's best to adhere to actual scientific concepts with some level of accuracy.




No term goes unwarped by use.  Originally "Low fantasy" meant "fantasy that is set within our real world" and "high fantasy" meant "fantasy set in a different, fictional setting".  But that's not how the word is generally used now.

So, yeah, since there are things out there like Star Wars, that blur the lines, folks wind up using the term in a highly relative way, in whcih their baseline is so "soft" a sci-fi that the "hard" is still very squishy.


----------



## Hex08

Umbran said:


> No term goes unwarped by use.  Originally "Low fantasy" meant "fantasy that is set within our real world" and "high fantasy" meant "fantasy set in a different, fictional setting".  But that's not how the word is generally used now.
> 
> So, yeah, since there are things out there like Star Wars, that blur the lines, folks wind up using the term in a highly relative way, in whcih their baseline is so "soft" a sci-fi that the "hard" is still very squishy.



Sure, language and concepts change over time, and I have no problem with that which is why I find it helpful to provide a definition so others know where I am approaching something from. However, if the definitions become too squishy they become useless. If Star Trek is hard sci-fi compared to Star Wars does that make The Martian harder sci-fi compared to both? Or is The Martian still just hard sci-fi relatively even though Star Trek is too?

I also get that the differences may not matter to some people, they read/watch what they like and define it based on their preferences.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg

So, I have thoughts.

We are now three episodes in. Personally, I thought the most recent episode was the worst of the three, but it was still a good Star Trek episode. And that's when it hit me...

_This is the Trek I've been waiting for. _I love prestige TV. I love season-long arcs. But ... you know what else I love? THIS.

It's good. It's optimistic. It's what we aspire to. And each episode is mostly self-contained. And the cast and crew is ... enjoyable. The show it serious, but it never takes itself too seriously. And I genuinely like the characters! And the various crew members are getting time so that I get to know them! And then there's the whole Pike/Spock dynamic, which is working (not to mention the Chapel/Spock dynamic, which is fun). 

It's as if they crossed the best of TNG and TOS. Which is high praise ... and I hope they keep it up.

I still like Discovery, which genuinely got better the last two seasons. And Picard is like a warm cup of Earl Grey- soothing .... Yeah, I know the last season had its rough spots, but it was totally worth it for the scene at the end with Q and Jean Luc (that's all I'm going to say).

But BNW is exactly what I needed. 

(I am glad that they seem to be moving away from the whole, "Pike is preoccupied with how he is going to die" thing, because that doesn't seem to add much to the gestalt of the program.)


----------



## Mort

Snarf Zagyg said:


> So, I have thoughts.
> 
> We are now three episodes in. Personally, I thought the most recent episode was the worst of the three, but it was still a good Star Trek episode. And that's when it hit me...
> 
> _This is the Trek I've been waiting for. _I love prestige TV. I love season-long arcs. But ... you know what else I love? THIS.
> 
> It's good. It's optimistic. It's what we aspire to. And each episode is mostly self-contained. And the cast and crew is ... enjoyable. The show it serious, but it never takes itself too seriously. And I genuinely like the characters! And the various crew members are getting time so that I get to know them! And then there's the whole Pike/Spock dynamic, which is working (not to mention the Chapel/Spock dynamic, which is fun).
> 
> It's as if they crossed the best of TNG and TOS. Which is high praise ... and I hope they keep it up.
> 
> I still like Discovery, which genuinely got better the last two seasons. And Picard is like a warm cup of Earl Grey- soothing .... Yeah, I know the last season had its rough spots, but it was totally worth it for the scene at the end with Q and Jean Luc (that's all I'm going to say).
> 
> But BNW is exactly what I needed.
> 
> (I am glad that they seem to be moving away from the whole, "Pike is preoccupied with how he is going to die" thing, because that doesn't seem to add much to the gestalt of the program.)




Nicely summed up. I have the same opinion. I particularly like that 1) It's very optimistic 2) It's serious without taking itself too seriously (nice way of putting it btw). 

If it continues in this vein I'll be very happy!


----------



## damiller

As I said upthread, I am digging it. EP3 was a little cramped, but its what you get I think with a show trying to be episodic. The thing I really am enjoying is that is is sci-fi with a point. They are like TOS was (and TNG i think didn't watch much of it): morality plays. The science part of the fiction is just so WE don't know they are REALLY talking about RIGHT now. That's what I think Trek does best, and its what I consider "classic sci-fi" from an American perspective*. For me its the Asimov, Bradbury, and Clarke of Science Fiction.** At least of what I've read of each.

*and if not American pov, my pov.
**yes I know clarke isn't an american.


----------



## Ryujin

Snarf Zagyg said:


> So, I have thoughts.
> 
> We are now three episodes in. Personally, I thought the most recent episode was the worst of the three, but it was still a good Star Trek episode. And that's when it hit me...
> 
> _This is the Trek I've been waiting for. _I love prestige TV. I love season-long arcs. But ... you know what else I love? THIS.
> 
> It's good. It's optimistic. It's what we aspire to. And each episode is mostly self-contained. And the cast and crew is ... enjoyable. The show it serious, but it never takes itself too seriously. And I genuinely like the characters! And the various crew members are getting time so that I get to know them! And then there's the whole Pike/Spock dynamic, which is working (not to mention the Chapel/Spock dynamic, which is fun).



And until it came along, the best source of TOS style Star Trek wasn't Star Trek at all, but "The Orville." Now episodic Trek, with a moral, is finally back.


Snarf Zagyg said:


> It's as if they crossed the best of TNG and TOS. Which is high praise ... and I hope they keep it up.
> 
> I still like Discovery, which genuinely got better the last two seasons. And Picard is like a warm cup of Earl Grey- soothing .... Yeah, I know the last season had its rough spots, but it was totally worth it for the scene at the end with Q and Jean Luc (that's all I'm going to say).
> 
> But BNW is exactly what I needed.
> 
> (I am glad that they seem to be moving away from the whole, "Pike is preoccupied with how he is going to die" thing, because that doesn't seem to add much to the gestalt of the program.)



And the funny thing is that we, who watched the original series, know more about that than does Pike. Don't know if I should spoiler that, in a spoiler thread, for those who have never seen TOS


----------



## Hex08

I just rewatched the first three episodes and have really grown to like the new take on Nurse Chapel. At first she just seemed "off" to me, just too different than the character from TOS but I am really enjoying the more upbeat but very confident version we are getting in SNW. La'an is another character that is really growing on me, she is fierce and loyal with a lot of historical baggage I am looking forward to being explored. So far the only two characters that I am ambivalent towards are Hemmer and Ortegas but maybe as they get more screen time they will grow on me.


----------



## Umbran

Snarf Zagyg said:


> It's good. It's optimistic. It's what we aspire to.




And that's the real thing, for me.  

Discovery has been nice, but the most recent season I haven't finished yet because the sheer number of personal crises swept away the optimism.  It isn't optimistic when everyone is miserable.

As an aside, I am finding this to be a flaw of the short-season patterns from TV today.  In the past, those crises would be spread out, focusing on one character at a time, but when you have half the episodes, they come all at once, and pile up deep.  It makes satisfying ensembles difficult to do, honestly.



Snarf Zagyg said:


> (I am glad that they seem to be moving away from the whole, "Pike is preoccupied with how he is going to die" thing, because that doesn't seem to add much to the gestalt of the program.)




One of the things to note is, as I understand it, while the individual episodes are self-contained plot, they are trying to do character development arcs across the season.  Pike's relationship to his future is apt to be a continuing major theme, but it should change and develop at the series progresses.


----------



## Stalker0

Episode 4 was another really great one. It actually gave some fun feeling of submarine combat, even including the various sound effects. It was cool, intense, but at the center was L'anns story, and that I think is what is setting this trek apart from some of the recent incarnations. Yes their booms and action and excitement, but the series never forgets that characters drive your show, and keeps the story coming back to them.

I will...just ignore the whole dr is giving an Illyrian (aka a completely alien species) a straight up blood transfusion, when he doesn't have any of his fancy blood synthesizers...hehe this may be the sore point of the show for me, but I'm enjoying it enough to just let that one go.

I also had one more thought about episode 3. So one factoid is that the bio filters in transports filter out EVERYTHING they do not recognize. This means that in order for transporters to lock on and transport aliens that the federation is not familiar with, the transporter technicians are having to turn off some safety's on the biofilters, aka the biofilters only remove known hostile agents, but can't remove unknown signatures (because if they did it would be VERY bad for Mr New Species). So effectively this introduces a lot of risk of alien pathogens in such a circumstance, so I can imagine Captains being very hesitant to do that under most circumstances.


----------



## Ondath

I feel exceptionally lucky to be a young adult while a good, optimistic Star Trek series is airing on TV (since the last time that happened was... what? 1999?), and boy do I enjoy it! They actually managed to make the Gorn look scary. These guys!






I really hope the rest of the season keeps the same tone and quality.


----------



## Vael

I really like how the show is using Uhura, and that she's being rotated around the ship to learn different areas before specializing. It mixes up the character interactions and is just a smart setup.


----------



## Ryujin

Vael said:


> I really like how the show is using Uhura, and that she's being rotated around the ship to learn different areas before specializing. It mixes up the character interactions and is just a smart setup.



It feels, to me, like they're using Uhura as the viewers' proxy.


----------



## Hex08

Stalker0 said:


> Episode 4 was another really great one. It actually gave some fun feeling of submarine combat, even including the various sound effects. It was cool, intense, but at the center was L'anns story, and that I think is what is setting this trek apart from some of the recent incarnations. Yes their booms and action and excitement, but the series never forgets that characters drive your show, and keeps the story coming back to them.
> 
> I will...just ignore the whole dr is giving an Illyrian (aka a completely alien species) a straight up blood transfusion, when he doesn't have any of his fancy blood synthesizers...hehe this may be the sore point of the show for me, but I'm enjoying it enough to just let that one go.
> 
> I also had one more thought about episode 3. So one factoid is that the bio filters in transports filter out EVERYTHING they do not recognize. This means that in order for transporters to lock on and transport aliens that the federation is not familiar with, the transporter technicians are having to turn off some safety's on the biofilters, aka the biofilters only remove known hostile agents, but can't remove unknown signatures (because if they did it would be VERY bad for Mr New Species). So effectively this introduces a lot of risk of alien pathogens in such a circumstance, so I can imagine Captains being very hesitant to do that under most circumstances.



The entire time I was watching this episode I kept thinking about the TOS episode Balance of Terror, it's one of my favorite episodes and it also evoked submarine combat. Wrath of Khan also did that really well.

La'an is rapidly becoming one of my favorite characters on the show, second only to Pike (and it's a close second) so I loved that we got more of her story.

At first the whole blood transfusion thing bugged me too but the more I thought about it the less it bugged me. I figure if so many of the Trek alien races can interbreed then why not transfusions?

All in all, another really good episode.


----------



## Rabulias

Another satisfying episode! I was a bit distracted in episode 3 by a lot of "plot convenience playhouse presents" along with allusions to La'an's backstory that were unclear. Now we have a bit more about La'an's history and background, but I do want to know more (and I think we will get it in time). How "augmented" is she? Would the offspring of an augment be considered augmented by the Federation? Is her status known to Starfleet? Episode 3 made it fairly clear she is _related _to Khan (she alluded to him being an ancestor), but is she a direct descendant (did Khan father children and leave them behind when he left Earth on the _Botany Bay_?), or is Khan like her great great great uncle or a distant cousin? I feel they have a story to tell about the augments otherwise they would not have made La'an's as she is.


----------



## Mort

Rabulias said:


> Another satisfying episode! I was a bit distracted in episode 3 by a lot of "plot convenience playhouse presents" along with allusions to La'an's backstory that were unclear. Now we have a bit more about La'an's history and background, but I do want to know more (and I think we will get it in time). How "augmented" is she? Would the offspring of an augment be considered augmented by the Federation? Is her status known to Starfleet? Episode 3 made it fairly clear she is _related _to Khan (she alluded to him being an ancestor), but is she a direct descendant (did Khan father children and leave them behind when he left Earth on the _Botany Bay_?), or is Khan like her great great great uncle or a distant cousin? I feel they have a story to tell about the augments otherwise they would not have made La'an's as she is.




Considering her response to meeting someone who is augmented (from last week) I think her being augmented was an early misdirect and that she's not augmented at all - even with the famous last name (which again, likely a misdirect).

Liked the episode, another strong showing (and stronger, IMO, than last week).

Though (and this is a fairly small gripe) I do hope they limit the hallucinations while in tense situations. It was REALLY overused on Picard and I hope they don't overuse it on this show.


----------



## Ryujin

Rabulias said:


> Another satisfying episode! I was a bit distracted in episode 3 by a lot of "plot convenience playhouse presents" along with allusions to La'an's backstory that were unclear. Now we have a bit more about La'an's history and background, but I do want to know more (and I think we will get it in time). How "augmented" is she? Would the offspring of an augment be considered augmented by the Federation? Is her status known to Starfleet? Episode 3 made it fairly clear she is _related _to Khan (she alluded to him being an ancestor), but is she a direct descendant (did Khan father children and leave them behind when he left Earth on the _Botany Bay_?), or is Khan like her great great great uncle or a distant cousin? I feel they have a story to tell about the augments otherwise they would not have made La'an's as she is.



I think that it's fair to assume that Khan Noonian Singh is somewhat like Genghis Khan, from whom an estimated 0.5% of the current world population is descended.


----------



## Umbran

Stalker0 said:


> I will...just ignore the whole dr is giving an Illyrian (aka a completely alien species) a straight up blood transfusion, when he doesn't have any of his fancy blood synthesizers...hehe this may be the sore point of the show for me, but I'm enjoying it enough to just let that one go.




Well, do remember that he didn't officially know she wasn't human until last episode.  They are already working with the assumption that in most ways she passes for human, except when she doesn't...



Stalker0 said:


> So one factoid is that the bio filters in transports filter out EVERYTHING they do not recognize. This means that in order for transporters to lock on and transport aliens that the federation is not familiar with, the transporter technicians are having to turn off some safety's on the biofilters, aka the biofilters only remove known hostile agents, but can't remove unknown signatures (because if they did it would be VERY bad for Mr New Species). So effectively this introduces a lot of risk of alien pathogens in such a circumstance, so I can imagine Captains being very hesitant to do that under most circumstances.




What you've failed to get is that the more you _think_ about transporters, the less sense they actually make.  They are perfectly fine as long as you don't think about them too much.  Let Mr. Kyle handle the difficult part of making them work.


----------



## Stalker0

Umbran said:


> Well, do remember that he didn't officially know she wasn't human until last episode.  They are already working with the assumption that in most ways she passes for human, except when she doesn't...



Fair enough, if you can go with the notion that...in order for her to have remained undercover so long, she must be able to pass as human, and so must have been modified to accept most human treatments. I will just forget that whole "oh your immune system looks nothing like a humans, its COMPLETELY different, you don't even have antibodies"....ok, I'll just ignore that piece, and go with this as the headcannon. I'm on board!


----------



## Thomas Shey

Am I forgetting that at one time they indicated that most of the full-blown humanoids were derived from a common stock (albeit modified) by some of a Precursor race?  Or has "The Chase" been pretty much ignored since?


----------



## BookTenTiger

What a fun episode! I'm really enjoying all the characters. Hemmer really won me over this week with his love of flora and pacifism.

I also like how we 



Spoiler



never see the gorn. I look forward to their reveal in the future!


----------



## Morrus

I’m starting to think the Enterprise is the smallest, weakest ship in the galaxy, not Starfleet’s flagship! I think it needs a hero moment.


----------



## Umbran

Morrus said:


> I’m starting to think the Enterprise is the smallest, weakest ship in the galaxy, not Starfleet’s flagship! I think it needs a hero moment.




What?  It just had a hero moment!

Have you ever seen _Die Hard_?  Did the hero sail through that, and come out clean, pristine, and unscathed?  No, he spent the movie crawling through air ducts.  He was barefoot, bloodied, beaten up, shot, stabbed, and limping before the movie was over.  John McClain's hull integrity was definitely compromised.

It isn't a hero moment if it is easy.  It is a hero moment if you got the crap beat out of you in a three-on-one fight, and you make it out alive.  Just, dramatically speaking - if the win is easy, you aren't a hero.


----------



## Morrus

Umbran said:


> What?  It just had a hero moment!
> 
> Have you ever seen _Die Hard_?  Did the hero sail through that, and come out clean, pristine, and unscathed?  No, he spent the movie crawling through air ducts.  He was barefoot, bloodied, beaten up, shot, stabbed, and limping before the movie was over.  John McClain's hull integrity was definitely compromised.
> 
> It isn't a hero moment if it is easy.  It is a hero moment if you got the crap beat out of you in a three-on-one fight, and you make it out alive.  Just, dramatically speaking - if the win is easy, you aren't a hero.



OK, maybe 'hero moment' wasn't quite the right phrase. It needs a chance to flex.


----------



## Mallus

Last week was Space Contagion and this week is "Balance of Terror" mixed with the nebula battle from Wrath of Khan - with a big helping of character development for Khan's descendent.

I applaud this show's commitment to obliterating the line between fan-service and art. This is all very well done. Not to take anything away from the other Trek series that openly experimented with the formula (including DISCO and Picard).


----------



## Ondath

Morrus said:


> OK, maybe 'hero moment' wasn't quite the right phrase. It needs a chance to flex.



The first episode where they revealed the full might of the Enterprise to the pre-warp civilisation was a flex IMO, but I get what you mean. So far the ship has endured great hardships, but we haven't yet seen what makes it better than the other Starfleet ships (besides having an incredibly charismatic captain who has in-universe plot armour).


----------



## Hex08

Ondath said:


> The first episode where they revealed the full might of the Enterprise to the pre-warp civilisation was a flex IMO, but I get what you mean. So far the ship has endured great hardships, but we haven't yet seen what makes it better than the other Starfleet ships (besides having an incredibly charismatic captain who has in-universe plot armour).



To be fair, we haven't really seen other Starfleet ships in SNW. Starfleet isn't primarily a "military" organization, it's an exploration organization that also fulfils the role of a military. Even so, that doesn't mean that Enterprise is a pushover. To paraphrase Captain Kirk, they were "caught with their britches down" and by a species that is far more aggressive and so with ships that are, presumably, more geared towards war. I imagine that the fight would have been different if they could have raised shields.


----------



## Ryujin

Umbran said:


> Well, do remember that he didn't officially know she wasn't human until last episode.  They are already working with the assumption that in most ways she passes for human, except when she doesn't...
> 
> What you've failed to get is that the more you _think_ about transporters, the less sense they actually make.  They are perfectly fine as long as you don't think about them too much.  Let Mr. Kyle handle the difficult part of making them work.



Yeah, even in TOS we had to have really short memories, where the transporters are concerned. Theoretically, based on their uses in various episodes, they could eliminate disease and aging, just as a start.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg

SNARFZODIACKILLER EPISODE 4 REVIEW

OMG. STAR TREK IS COOKING WITH GAS NOW. GAS? NO. THEY ARE TORCHING THESE TBONES WITH FLAMETHROWERS. AS SOON AS PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT THE MOUNTAIN STREAMING NETOWKFR EXISTS, THEY WILL BE ON THIS SHOW LIKE SHATKIRK ON ALIEN CHICKS.

GETTING DOWN TO THAT PLANET AND YOU KNOW ITS GETTING REAL. SEEING ALL THAT BLOOD MADE ME WANT TO PUT ON SLAYER. OR SABBATH. OR IRON MAIDEN. OR ALL OF THEM AT THE SAME TIME. YOU KNOW ITS ABOUT TO GET EXTRA AWESOME.

AND IT DID.

I CANNOT BELIEVE THEY WENT ALL DAS BOOT. I SAW THAT BRIDGE GO DARK AND THE PING PING PING OF ENTERPRISE SONAR AND I SWEAR TO GOD I THOUGHT SEAN CONNERY WAS FAKING A RUSSIAN ACCENT. AND BULKHEADS CLOSING. CLOSING!!!!! YOU KNOW ITS ALL HITTING THE FAN WHEN YOU GET STUCK ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THAT BULKHEAD.

THIS IS A SHOW THAT DARES TO ASK THE QUESTIONS- WHAT IF NEXT GENERATION, BUT PICARD WANTED TO KICK BUTT INSTEAD OF ADJUST HIS UNIFORM AND DRINK TEA? WHAT IF DEEP SPACE NINE, BUT WE WERENT STUCK ON A STUPID SPACE STATION? WHAT IF VOYAGER, BUT NOT SUCKY?

ONE MORE THING- DONT GIVE ME YOUR SILLY BLOOD TRANSFUSION. REAL AUGMENTS WILL GRAB HOLD OF THE CLOSEST PERSON AND SUCK ALL THE BLOOD THEY NEED RIGHT OUT. YOU HEARD ME MYSTIQUE. AND WHEN HEMMER SAYS HE IS A PACIFIST THAT LIKES PLANTS, HE MEANS THAT HE IS ALL ABOUT THE BOTANY BAY AND HE TOTALLY ROCKS THE VIOLENCE LIKE A BLIND WARRIOR MONK.

FINAL RATING: FOUR SEU JORGE SONGS.


----------



## Arilyn

I'm so happy with this show. This is what Trek should be--episodic with some continuity, great stories and awesome characters. 

Pike almost collapsing with relief after hearing Uhura report in? I felt that, even though I knew that she and Hemmer were fine and it's a super common tv trope. Anson Mount's performance was superb.


----------



## Ryujin

Arilyn said:


> I'm so happy with this show. This is what Trek should be--episodic with some continuity, great stories and awesome characters.
> 
> Pike almost collapsing with relief after hearing Uhura report in? I felt that, even though I knew that she and Hemmer were fine and it's a super common tv trope. Anson Mount's performance was superb.



The "continuity" seems to be largely about character development, which makes it even better. The cast seems to be a bit large to have a Triumvirate like TOS, but we can at least learn more about the characters we do see every show.


----------



## Stalker0

Morrus said:


> I’m starting to think the Enterprise is the smallest, weakest ship in the galaxy, not Starfleet’s flagship! I think it needs a hero moment.



I felt that way in TNG as well, I felt like the Enterprise's shields were basically paper.

They at least do nod to the fact that federation ships are exploration first/military second. The few times we do see the Federation "go military" with ships like the Ares class or especially the defiant, they fight way above their usual paygrade.


----------



## Ryujin

Stalker0 said:


> I felt that way in TNG as well, I felt like the Enterprise's shields were basically paper.
> 
> They at least do nod to the fact that federation ships are exploration first/military second. The few times we do see the Federation "go military" with ships like the Ares class or especially the defiant, they fight way above their usual paygrade.



Though in games like Starship Battles the Federation ships were pretty much a match for anything of equal displacement. I saw a Constitution Class take on 2 Klingon D7s and win, with players of pretty equal ability.


----------



## Arilyn

A ship vs. ship Star Trek episode needs to have the Enterprise in jeopardy, or it'd be a pretty dull episode. Through no fault of their own, the Enterprise fell into a trap, and faced an enemy so ruthless, they were willing to sacrifice one of their own ships. Our crew prevailed against the odds in a damn good episode.


----------



## Morrus

Arilyn said:


> A ship vs. ship Star Trek episode needs to have the Enterprise in jeopardy, or it'd be a pretty dull episode. Through no fault of their own, the Enterprise fell into a trap, and faced an enemy so ruthless, they were willing to sacrifice one of their own ships. Our crew prevailed against the odds in a damn good episode.



Yes but we’ve had 2 episodes out of 4 being the Enterprise meeting bigger, superior ships. It bugged me that happened in all three Kelvinverse films too. I just wanna see it flex occasionally. It’s a big, powerful ship!


----------



## Mallus

Snarf Zagyg said:


> FINAL RATING: FOUR SEU JORGE SONGS.



Originals or Bowie covers?

Also, favorite new character: Hemmer.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg

Mallus said:


> Originals or Bowie covers?
> .




THREE BOWIES AND ONE ORIGINAL. 

TO GET A RATING OF FOUR BOWIE COVERS, PIKE WOULD HAVE HAD TO SCREAM “GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!“

SNARFZODIACKILLER HAS STANDARDS!!!111!! JUST SAY NO TO SEU JORGE INFLATION.


----------



## Mallus

Snarf Zagyg said:


> THREE BOWIES AND ONE ORIGINAL.



Apropos of nothing, you think Wes will ever direct a science fiction film? I read his next is called “Asteroid City”, but I feel like he might be toying with me.


----------



## Arilyn

Morrus said:


> Yes but we’ve had 2 episodes out of 4 being the Enterprise meeting bigger, superior ships. It bugged me that happened in all three Kelvinverse films too. I just wanna see it flex occasionally. It’s a big, powerful ship!



In the original series the galaxy is a very dangerous place. Many starships don't survive their five year missions. Kirk survives through guile, a brilliant science officer and the ability to talk computers into self destruction. (And seducing female baddies) Meeting more powerful foes is pretty par for the course. If the Enterprise just flexes her muscles and wins, do we have a story? Yes, it happens, but usually at the end of the episode after the heroes have done their thing. Is that what you feel is missing?


----------



## Morrus

Arilyn said:


> In the original series the galaxy is a very dangerous place. Many starships don't survive their five year missions. Kirk survives through guile, a brilliant science officer and the ability to talk computers into self destruction. (And seducing female baddies) Meeting more powerful foes is pretty par for the course. If the Enterprise just flexes her muscles and wins, do we have a story? Yes, it happens, but usually at the end of the episode after the heroes have done their thing. Is that what you feel is missing?



Not every episode has to be a military threat to the ship. If they were all episodes where the ship was in danger from a bigger ship, that would get tedious very fast. In fact, those episodes will hopefully be very occasional. It's like Worf or the Hulk getting beaten up all the time.


----------



## Arilyn

Morrus said:


> Not every episode has to be a military threat to the ship. If they were all episodes where the ship was in danger from a bigger ship, that would get tedious very fast. In fact, those episodes will hopefully be very occasional. It's like Worf or the Hulk getting beaten up all the time.



True enough! I think threats to the ship episodes were often done in the past to save money. Looks like next week is a Vulcan episode. That should be good.


----------



## Ryujin

Morrus said:


> Not every episode has to be a military threat to the ship. If they were all episodes where the ship was in danger from a bigger ship, that would get tedious very fast. In fact, those episodes will hopefully be very occasional. It's like Worf or the Hulk getting beaten up all the time.



When it comes to the ship-to-ship stuff I found the fight in "Journey to Babel", from the original series. far more engaging than any of the episodes in which they faced a larger vessel in TOS. Maybe with the exception of "The Corbomite Maneuver." That one didn't really involve ship-to-ship combat though.

A small, fast, maneuverable vessel using hit & run tactics, against a ship of the line, had a lot more suspense for me. "Captain, their power utilization curve is not the norm."

I agree that so far they haven't really let Enterprise shine, except when over-awing a society that had no previous benchmark for such a vessel. Might as well have dropped into 20th Century Earth and melted the Eiffel Tower, just to show off. Enterprise is a Battleship grade piece of hardware and having a Constitution Class starship show up in your sector would be much like looking out the window of your seaside home, to see the USS Missouri sitting among the fishing boats. People would talk.


----------



## tomBitonti

As a plot point, the surprise attack works.  But the details are a little off.  The crew should have known they were vulnerable when the docking bridge was deployed, and should have been hustling to transship the refugees.  That is in particular because of the attack on the colony.  This seems a typical combat scenario which should be a part of training, of which star fleet provides in abundance.
TomB


----------



## Mezuka

I think I'm over Star Trek. Nothing feels new, fresh, surprising or unexpected. Comfort food I don't need.


----------



## Morrus

Trek: here’s some new stuff!

Fans: no! It’s too different! Show us old stuff!

Trek: ok here’s some old stuff that’s not different

Fans: no! that’s too much the same 

Trek: oh FFS


----------



## Ryujin

tomBitonti said:


> As a plot point, the surprise attack works.  But the details are a little off.  The crew should have known they were vulnerable when the docking bridge was deployed, and should have been hustling to transship the refugees.  That is in particular because of the attack on the colony.  This seems a typical combat scenario which should be a part of training, of which star fleet provides in abundance.
> TomB



Training scenarios generally come after an event that they mimic.


----------



## Hex08

Mezuka said:


> I think I'm over Star Trek. Nothing feels new, fresh, surprising or unexpected. Comfort food I don't need.



To each their own but the Paramount+ era seems to fly in the face of that. You have Discovery (which I can't stand) which is wildly different from any Trek before it, so much so that for the few seasons I watched it I rarely felt like I was watching Star Trek. There is Lower Decks, an animated _comedy _set in the Star Trek universe and of all of the Trek we currently have it's the one that feels the most firmly set in the pre-P+/TNG timeline but is a wholly different approach to the franchise than what came before. There is Prodigy, and Picard. And we have Strange New Worlds which is, other than the visuals, the comfort food you don't want but others craved.  If your complaint is that it is all same-old, same-old then I really have to wonder what you are watching because several of the shows are quite different than the pre-Paramount+ Trek.


----------



## trappedslider

Morrus said:


> Trek: here’s some new stuff!
> 
> Fans: no! It’s too different! Show us old stuff!
> 
> Trek: ok here’s some old stuff that’s not different
> 
> Fans: no! that’s too much the same
> 
> Trek: oh FFS



That also applies to the SW fandom


----------



## Mezuka

Morrus said:


> Trek: here’s some new stuff!
> 
> Fans: no! It’s too different! Show us old stuff!
> 
> Trek: ok here’s some old stuff that’s not different
> 
> Fans: no! that’s too much the same
> 
> Trek: oh FFS




LOL! Fans, you know this, are not a monolith group.

Actually, Trek is very clever. They've successfully relaunched the tv franchise with Discovery creating a new generation of fans, are catering to the TNG fans with Picard and are now serving the TOS fans with Strange New Worlds. They even have two animated series for fans of anime.

I've drifted away from Star Trek since B5. I didn't find anything to my taste in the new Star Trek shows.


----------



## Hades#2

I am enjoying Strange New Worlds so far. Once I got past the notion that it is not TOS timelime then I can ignore most of the things that didn't make sense. I have not watched Discovery mainly because everything I have read about it makes me feel like I would not enjoy it. Hopefully Paramount+ will continue to have good stories with the show.


----------



## Morrus

Mezuka said:


> LOL! Fans, you know this, are not a monolith group.
> 
> Actually, Trek is very clever. They've successfully relaunched the tv franchise with Discovery creating a new generation of fans, are catering to the TNG fans with Picard and are now serving the TOS fans with Strange New Worlds. They even have two animated series for fans of anime.
> 
> I've drifted away from Star Trek since B5. I didn't find anything to my taste in the new Star Trek shows.



If you drifted away 30 years ago, you’re probably not the target audience.


----------



## Mezuka

Morrus said:


> If you drifted away 30 years ago, you’re probably not the target audience.



Confirmed Captain! Still I owed it to my younger self to give it a try.


----------



## bloodtide

S1E4

So...not to be too meta, by Laan whines she is not a "broken character" like all the other characters on the show....lol

So where did the colony get the non Federation radiation hulling cargo ship?  

It sure was SUPER convenient that ALL the colony people...er...could remember NOTHING.  Makes for super cheap suspense from a super lazy writer...

It sure was SUPER convenient Laan just happens to bump into the ONE littler girl who heard some 'clicks'

It sure was SUPER convenient that the Enterprise could not beam over the people on the ship so that they could not raise the shields when attacked......

Is there a reason they DON"T eject the cargo ship and raise shields?   

So....why do the gorn destroy the ship to ship link?  Did they not know that was keeping the ships shields down?

So......during the Opening Credits the Enterprise gets hit like 100 times and the gorn know exactly where to shoot disable the ship.  As soon as we get done watching the way too many 'producers', everyone is like "everything is off line!"

Also....why does the Enterprise not even TRY to shoot back?

So the gorn shoot out all the Enterprises phaser banks in seconds?  Ok

And the gorn shoot out the photon torpedo room?  And get all but one torpedo?  

And the gorn shoot the high profile targets of the cargo bay and sick bay?  Maybe go for the impulse engines next time?

And the main cargo bay only has one door?  Not even on emergency door?  Or one Jeffreis Tube?

Pike sends "people to get into the cargo bay".....but we never hear from them.  Maybe they could have phasered a way in?

I sure HOPE while people were being injured and killed ALL over the ship, none needed a quick beem to sick bay........because remember THAT transporter is off line so Doc can selfishly store his daughter there.  You know what would have made some SERIOUS drama....have broken Doc have to MURDER his daughter to save Ensign Jones life....

So at the start of the show Laan was a gorn expert....but then Pike asks what she knows and she is like "oh I forgot everything so the plot can happen"...

So superwoman Una does not have fast healing?

Yea....Star Trek has done this bad joke to death...that the Fancy Pants Future Doctors just "push buttons on a computer" and don't know any real medicine.  But...really....Starfleet would have a Classic First Aid course that taught the Ye Old Dark Ages 20th century medicine...FOR THE EXACT REASON THAT COMES UP IN THIS EPISODE. 

So...it's just bad three dimensional writing...but the "lower decks"(haha) are the first to be crushed....because..er....the Enterprise is um...floating downward "right side up on out screen"

They sure set up a lot of bad false drama about "running out of plasma" in sick bay.  I mean, I'm no doctor, but I know the ship has like a hundred "bags" walking around: The crew.  

So the brown dwarf that is crushing the Enterprise has no effect whatsoever on the tiny shuttle?

Is there some reason the gorn don't detect the shuttle?  They just sit there for a long time while the two crew are in the mind meld.....

Then the shuttle moves over right next to the gorn ships....and the gorn still don't notice?

And....er...Laan becomes an expert on gron light language in like one second from her memory?

So the shuttle light messages "humans on the other ship", so the main ship blows it up?  
Gee why not tell the last ship there are humans on that ship so they will blow themselves up?

So...sigh....they have to do the Cool Kidz Space Pew Pew thing where they "blast" the air out of the cargo bay.  Instead of a normal venting.

And sure Hemmer and Uhura have to "surf" the explosion

And...to vent the cargo bay....poor Spock has to strain against the "gravity" to hit the button...lol

And...hey, why does Spock have 1950's push buttons.....but the helm is a fancy touch screen?

And surprise....the Doc gave Una plasma so she would not die....wow, what drama!

And....then it's over!  We never get to see a CGI gorn!


----------



## Ondath

bloodtide said:


> S1E4
> 
> So...not to be too meta, by Laan whines she is not a "broken character" like all the other characters on the show....lol
> 
> So where did the colony get the non Federation radiation hulling cargo ship?
> 
> It sure was SUPER convenient that ALL the colony people...er...could remember NOTHING.  Makes for super cheap suspense from a super lazy writer...
> 
> It sure was SUPER convenient Laan just happens to bump into the ONE littler girl who heard some 'clicks'
> 
> It sure was SUPER convenient that the Enterprise could not beam over the people on the ship so that they could not raise the shields when attacked......
> 
> Is there a reason they DON"T eject the cargo ship and raise shields?
> 
> So....why do the gorn destroy the ship to ship link?  Did they not know that was keeping the ships shields down?
> 
> So......during the Opening Credits the Enterprise gets hit like 100 times and the gorn know exactly where to shoot disable the ship.  As soon as we get done watching the way too many 'producers', everyone is like "everything is off line!"
> 
> Also....why does the Enterprise not even TRY to shoot back?
> 
> So the gorn shoot out all the Enterprises phaser banks in seconds?  Ok
> 
> And the gorn shoot out the photon torpedo room?  And get all but one torpedo?
> 
> And the gorn shoot the high profile targets of the cargo bay and sick bay?  Maybe go for the impulse engines next time?
> 
> And the main cargo bay only has one door?  Not even on emergency door?  Or one Jeffreis Tube?
> 
> Pike sends "people to get into the cargo bay".....but we never hear from them.  Maybe they could have phasered a way in?
> 
> I sure HOPE while people were being injured and killed ALL over the ship, none needed a quick beem to sick bay........because remember THAT transporter is off line so Doc can selfishly store his daughter there.  You know what would have made some SERIOUS drama....have broken Doc have to MURDER his daughter to save Ensign Jones life....
> 
> So at the start of the show Laan was a gorn expert....but then Pike asks what she knows and she is like "oh I forgot everything so the plot can happen"...
> 
> So superwoman Una does not have fast healing?
> 
> Yea....Star Trek has done this bad joke to death...that the Fancy Pants Future Doctors just "push buttons on a computer" and don't know any real medicine.  But...really....Starfleet would have a Classic First Aid course that taught the Ye Old Dark Ages 20th century medicine...FOR THE EXACT REASON THAT COMES UP IN THIS EPISODE.
> 
> So...it's just bad three dimensional writing...but the "lower decks"(haha) are the first to be crushed....because..er....the Enterprise is um...floating downward "right side up on out screen"
> 
> They sure set up a lot of bad false drama about "running out of plasma" in sick bay.  I mean, I'm no doctor, but I know the ship has like a hundred "bags" walking around: The crew.
> 
> So the brown dwarf that is crushing the Enterprise has no effect whatsoever on the tiny shuttle?
> 
> Is there some reason the gorn don't detect the shuttle?  They just sit there for a long time while the two crew are in the mind meld.....
> 
> Then the shuttle moves over right next to the gorn ships....and the gorn still don't notice?
> 
> And....er...Laan becomes an expert on gron light language in like one second from her memory?
> 
> So the shuttle light messages "humans on the other ship", so the main ship blows it up?
> Gee why not tell the last ship there are humans on that ship so they will blow themselves up?
> 
> So...sigh....they have to do the Cool Kidz Space Pew Pew thing where they "blast" the air out of the cargo bay.  Instead of a normal venting.
> 
> And sure Hemmer and Uhura have to "surf" the explosion
> 
> And...to vent the cargo bay....poor Spock has to strain against the "gravity" to hit the button...lol
> 
> And...hey, why does Spock have 1950's push buttons.....but the helm is a fancy touch screen?
> 
> And surprise....the Doc gave Una plasma so she would not die....wow, what drama!
> 
> And....then it's over!  We never get to see a CGI gorn!



It's super subtle, but I get the feeling you didn't like the episode. Maybe it just isn't your cup of tea?


----------



## Mallus

@bloodtide may need a new hobby. Might I suggest fashioning a cross out of two-by-fours and nailing himself to it?


----------



## trappedslider

Mallus said:


> @bloodtide may need a new hobby. Might I suggest fashioning a cross out of two-by-fours and nailing himself to it?



He needs a new label instead of adventurer, he should get "hate watcher", i look forward to his hate watching on kenobi lol


----------



## Mallus

trappedslider said:


> He needs a new label instead of adventurer, he should get "hate watcher", i look forward to his hate watching on kenobi lol



TV Critic of the Sith.


----------



## Stalker0

So episode 5. Holy Moly they pulled off an actual Freaky Friday....and damn it worked!

The scene that really steals the show for me is where Una and L'ann are on the saucer signing the original piece of the ship (and from a naval tradition that is absolutely a thing people would do), and this beautiful golden ship goes by. The look of absolute wonder on their faces....that's the Star Trek we wanted.

Sure I can nitpick this show just like I did Picard...but I don't want to in nearly the same way. Because at the end of the day, its hopeful and wonderous and just plain fun. These crew members feel like actual people, doing actual things....and having a hell of a great time doing it. I love this show.


----------



## Corinnguard

I don't have Paramount+, but I have watched enough YouTube clips of Strange New Worlds to really like this new series. So much so that from time to time, I have tried to imagine a character of mine serving about Pike's Enterprise. As a security officer under La'an, no less.   And a non-human one at that.


----------



## Hex08

Another really good episode. The whole mind swap thing was so TOS and I loved it. We got more La'an and Chapel goodness, which is always a treat but I'm still finding it hard to care about Ortegas. 

I've been surprised with how little of Hemmer we have seen so far.


----------



## Mort

Well the new episode was certainly different!

Mostly liked it and at the very least liked the fact that they were trying some new story lines but still be Star Trek (meeting different species and exploring the ones we know in a new way).

The Spock and T'pring story line was fun but pretty sad as we know where it (eventually) leads to.


----------



## Thomas Shey

Ryujin said:


> Yeah, even in TOS we had to have really short memories, where the transporters are concerned. Theoretically, based on their uses in various episodes, they could eliminate disease and aging, just as a start.




Sliding premise was a problem with a _lot _of Trek's technological add-ons across the course of the franchise.


----------



## Benjamin Olson

Well after 3 successive "must save the crew and/or ship from imminent doom" episodes, I was worried they might not have any low-stakes character-centric episodes. This more than delivered on that front. Go hijinks!



Hex08 said:


> I've been surprised with how little of Hemmer we have seen so far.



I'm going to guess the explanation is that he has one of those four hour make-up jobs, so now that he's introduced they won't use him in episodes where they don't have a substantive part for him. It must be a relief to the writers to have a major character they are not obligated to work into every episode.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg

SNARFZODIACKILLER EPISODE 5 REVIEW

I CAME INTO THE EPISODE TOTALLY HEADBANGING FROM THE LAST ONE. I SWEAR ALL I COULD HEAR EVERY TIME I CLOSED MY EYES WAS THE PING PING PING OF SPACE SONAR. BUT PIKE'S POSSE HAD ME LIKE PUTTY. FLASH ME BACK TO THOSE RED VULCANIZED COMBAT TIRES BABY! FILL ME UP WITH ALL Y'ALLS T'PRINGS AND T'PAUS AND T'WUTS!!!!! AINT NO COMBAT LIKE A VULCAN COMBAT CUZ A VULCAN COMBAT DONT STOP!

UNTIL SOMEONE DIES. METAL!!!!!

SPOCK AMOK? DOES THAT RHYME? SPOCK AMOCK? SPUCK AMUCK? OH FU....

THIS WAS THE BREATHER I NEEDED. LIKE ALL AWESOME BANDS, YOU NEED TO BREAK UP THE AWESOME SPEED EAR BLEEDS WITH THE AWESOME BALLADS. ALSO ITS FOR THE CHICKS. AND FOR ME. AMOKING THE SPOCK WAS TOTALLY EVERY ROSE HAS A THORN. AND NOBODYS FOOL. AND NOVEMBER RAIN.

BUT IF THEY WERE ALL TOGETHER AND PLAYED BY METALLICA. I WAS HOLDING MY LIGHTER UP THE ENTIRE EPISODE. MY THUMB HURTS SO BAD.

BUT IT WAS TOTALLY WORTH IT, BECAUSE PIKE WAS ROCKING THE GREEN KIRK SMOCK. SMOCK, SPOCK. SPOCK, AMOK. AMOK SMOCK.

YOU KNOW THAT GREEN COLOR- MEANS THE CAPTAIN IS GOING ALL OFFICIAL AND SHIZNIT. NEEDS TO DIPLOMACY THE HELL OUT OF THE SITUATION. AND HE DID. PIKE KIRKED THE HELL OUT OF THOSE ALIENS. THEY NEVER HAD A CHANCE. THE FEDERATION ASSIMILATED THEM LIKE THEY WERE A PRE-WARP SPECIES ON THE BORG CHARCUTERIE PLATTER.

CRISIS.
AVERTED.
KIRK-STYLE.
TRUST IN THE HUNCH, CAPTAIN, TRUST IN THE HUNCH.

AND I HAVEN'T EVEN GOTTEN TO THE BODY SWAP. BUT YOU KNOW WHAT? WHO CARES? FREAKY VULCAN STUFF DOESN'T EVEN RATE WHEN NURSE CHAPEL IS SHIPPING SPOCK HARDER THAN FEDEX. AND CHAPEL LOVES SPOCK FOR BOTH BODIES SPOCK IS IN. CHAPEL PROBABLY WAS ALL LIKE, WHAT IF I PUT SPOCK IN BOTH BODIES AND IM THE FILLING IN A SPOCK SANDWICH? 'CUZ SPOCK CAN AMOK ME ANYTIME. UM, NURSE CHAPEL. SPOCK CAN AMOK CHAPEL. 

......THATS JUST HOW A FREAKY DINGO EATS UR BABY.


OH YEAH. ENTERPRISE BINGO. COOL. YOU KNOW AT LEAST 2/3 OF THOSE ARE SOME VARIATIONS OF "SOMETHING SOMETHING TRANSPORTER INTERCOURSE." JUST LEAVE IT TO KILLFUN MYSTIQUE AND BABY KHAAAN TO IGNORE THE GOOD STUFF.

THEY DONT HAVE HOLDOECKS YET. I DONT WANT TO KNOW WHAT THE PERVS ON TNG DID FOR BINGO. PROBABLY OVERLOADED THE BIOFILTERS.

RATING: 7 "CAN YOU HEAR ME STEVENS" FROM CLEM FANDANGO


----------



## Maxperson

Hex08 said:


> At first the whole blood transfusion thing bugged me too but the more I thought about it the less it bugged me. I figure if so many of the Trek alien races can interbreed then why not transfusions?



In the old series we learn that the Old Ones or whatever they are called seeded life on many planets, as well as move various human cultures to other planets.  It makes sense that there would genetic compatibility in many species if they were seeded by that race.


----------



## BookTenTiger

I was a little worried going into this episode... A light, fluffy episode after so many fun, high-stakes one was a risk...

But it was great! It's fun seeing these characters hanging out, getting into hijinks, and also being good at their jobs.

This is a really fun show.


----------



## Stalker0

Snarf Zagyg said:


> ......THATS JUST HOW A FREAKY DINGO EATS UR BABY.



Word.

hehe for some reason I felt like I was going to see just one uncapitalized letter in all that text...just one.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg

Stalker0 said:


> Word.
> 
> hehe for some reason I felt like I was going to see just one uncapitalized letter in all that text...just one.




I HAVE TEXT IMMODULATION DISORDER. OTHERWISE KNOWN AS LOUD TYPING. 

I ACQUIRED IT AT THE AGE OF FIVE WHEN I WAS TEXTING AT A RATT CONCERT. 

IF UR LOOKING FOR THE SMALL LETTERS, IN THE WORDS OF MY MOTHER, I WILL ALWAYS BE UR BIGGEST DISAPPOINTMENT.

#FREEHEMMER


----------



## Maxperson

I think this show is probably the Trek series closest to the Original Series.  I'm really enjoying it.


----------



## Arilyn

Fun episode with tricky story threads that the writers deftly wove together. Great character moments and overall charming story.


----------



## Vael

This episode was very close to hijinks.


----------



## Mallus

A Star Trek screwball comedy? Make it so!


----------



## BookTenTiger

One thing I really liked about this episode was the design and concept of the aliens they were negotiating with. I'll put this in spoilers since it's resolved at the end of the episode.



Spoiler



I feel like the design of the race would normally be used for a threatening "evil" alien: orange eyes, sharp teeth, they looked sort of feral. Also, the guy outright tells Pike that empathy is their most defining trait, but I feel like the Federation assumes they are antagonistic rather than taking that at face value. I enjoyed how their demeanor changed with each interaction, and how it wasn't a simple case of mirroring the dispositions of others, but instead it was, in fact, very strong empathy. This was just such a Star Treky plot, I loved it!


----------



## Echohawk

BookTenTiger said:


> One thing I really liked about this episode was the design and concept of the aliens they were negotiating with. I'll put this in spoilers since it's resolved at the end of the episode.



Pike's summation was the highlight of the episode for me. Excellent writing and delivery.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg

Maxperson said:


> I think this show is probably the Trek series closest to the Original Series.  I'm really enjoying it.




(I don't want to jinx it, or high jinks it, but this has been an amazing opening run of episodes. I genuinely enjoy Disco and Picard, while acknowledging their flaws. But this is the exact show that I wanted. I didn't know how much I needed this version of Trek until they gave it to me. It really is TOS, but updated to the present.)


----------



## Ryujin

Well that episode pretty much invalidated Chapel's surprise at hearing that Spock had a wife, in TOS episode "Amok Time", but it had hijinks so I'll take it.


----------



## bloodtide

S1E5

Oh, a fluff episode! 

Well, it is nice seeing everyone being friends.  

So Spock has a nightmare with elements from Amok Time....hummmmm (and with some nice original ST music mixed in too)

So...right at the start Pike KNOWS that Spocks fiancée is coming for a visit...but he STILL asks Spock to work?  You'd think Pike would have just given him the time off.

So...Dr. M'Benga was fishing on a Starbase?  Is that not a bit like fishing at a mall?  I mean, it's not Really fishing.....

And...well, would not the Federation put fishing as wrong?  Even if M'Benga is doing fish and release, it's still a bit cruel to the fish, right?

So the two ensigns  were trying to sneak off the ship and sure got caught....but lots of others had done this and NOBODY else has ever been caught EVER?

I guess StarBase One only has One "StarBase Forward" so Chaple can see Spock sitting alone.

And here...suddenly...Spoke acts like someone how has been living with humans for decades.....

So when Spock and T'Pring swap minds...er....why do all the candles in the room go out?  Is part of the ritual some pryoknessis?

Considering it's years before the Romulans get 'Re Discovered" by Kirk, Pike and Starfleet sure talk about them a LOT....

It's the Ye Old "mind swap, now do each others jobs"....

So the two ensigns were just opening an air lock....and they lost all shore leave AND had to scrub the transporter pad with a broken toothbrush?  Seems harsh....

Enterprise Bingo?!?!  Ok......so, some of these um "bingo square challenges" were written by like the lamest, dullest most boring person EVER.  Like the person that punches out for lunch at 11:59...ooohhh.  

Like...ummmmm...how is the Turbolift yell challenge against the rules?  Is there a rule "don't yell in the turbolift?"  I mean this challenge is like "get on an Earth elevator with someone else and PRESS THE SAME BUTTON THEY ALREADY PRESSED AGAIN! " Yuck, yuck, yuck!

And...um....Bingo #8 is sneak a tribble into the transporter buffer?!?  So even with that beyond dumb Tribble Short Trek......um...where would ANYONE get a tribble on the Enterprise?  

And #9 is sit on the captains chair......eh, and well....I mean it is all fun and games, but is that not  REALLY, REALLY, REALLY disrespectful?  And considering there are always at least five or so people on the bridge, is this one not near impossible?

So....did Laan and Una MURDER Dr. . M'Benga daughter when they reflavored the gum using the medical trnsporter?  She is still stuck in there RIGHT?  And they CAN"T use the medical transporter with out ERASING HER PATTERN FOREVER, right?  So did they MURDER that little girl to play Enterprise Bingo?

So is T'Pring an augment super woman too?  She is a tiny little woman, and she knocks out the criminal guy with one lazy half punch.

And Spock in T'Prings body wants to keep secret how they...ahem...assaulted someone in public?!?  Yea...space cops doing assult and battery to catch a bad guy is all fun, right?

Weird how Dr.Bragga is such a Vulcan medical expert, and even knows about 'katara'.s.  Sure he studied on Vulcan, but he seems to know everything.

And Dr.Bragga uses a sea urchin?  Humm, must be from the Phlox Medical Text....

Is walking on the ships hull in a force field really "breaking some big rule"?  It seems like very lame.  Like what was their second choice?  Take that 'don't remove' tag off a mattress?  

I mean...if your going to break the rules....then why not get in the Shittlecraft GhostRider and do a fly-by of Starbase Ones control tower.....  I mean if your not called into your CO's office and told "your writing checks your body can't cash", your not breaking a big enough rule....

Guess Hemmer just stayed on duty?  

The aliens were funny....but boring.  Maybe should have just been more focus on the crew?  Maybe given Orteges her own tiny plot?  

Oh....I did so love the use of that old tymey word HIJINKS, you sure don't hear that word much anymore

And...well...Spock never goes "amock", so why is that in the title?  What, they did not like Freaky Stardate?


----------



## BookTenTiger

bloodtide said:


> S1E5
> 
> Oh, a fluff episode!
> 
> *Well, it is nice seeing everyone being friends. *
> 
> So Spock has a nightmare with elements from Amok Time....hummmmm (and with some nice original ST music mixed in too)
> 
> So...right at the start Pike KNOWS that Spocks fiancée is coming for a visit...but he STILL asks Spock to work?  You'd think Pike would have just given him the time off.
> 
> So...Dr. M'Benga was fishing on a Starbase?  Is that not a bit like fishing at a mall?  I mean, it's not Really fishing.....
> 
> And...well, would not the Federation put fishing as wrong?  Even if M'Benga is doing fish and release, it's still a bit cruel to the fish, right?
> 
> So the two ensigns  were trying to sneak off the ship and sure got caught....but lots of others had done this and NOBODY else has ever been caught EVER?
> 
> I guess StarBase One only has One "StarBase Forward" so Chaple can see Spock sitting alone.
> 
> And here...suddenly...Spoke acts like someone how has been living with humans for decades.....
> 
> So when Spock and T'Pring swap minds...er....why do all the candles in the room go out?  Is part of the ritual some pryoknessis?
> 
> Considering it's years before the Romulans get 'Re Discovered" by Kirk, Pike and Starfleet sure talk about them a LOT....
> 
> It's the Ye Old "mind swap, now do each others jobs"....
> 
> So the two ensigns were just opening an air lock....and they lost all shore leave AND had to scrub the transporter pad with a broken toothbrush?  Seems harsh....
> 
> Enterprise Bingo?!?!  Ok......so, some of these um "bingo square challenges" were written by like the lamest, dullest most boring person EVER.  Like the person that punches out for lunch at 11:59...ooohhh.
> 
> Like...ummmmm...how is the Turbolift yell challenge against the rules?  Is there a rule "don't yell in the turbolift?"  I mean this challenge is like "get on an Earth elevator with someone else and PRESS THE SAME BUTTON THEY ALREADY PRESSED AGAIN! " Yuck, yuck, yuck!
> 
> And...um....Bingo #8 is sneak a tribble into the transporter buffer?!?  So even with that beyond dumb Tribble Short Trek......um...where would ANYONE get a tribble on the Enterprise?
> 
> And #9 is sit on the captains chair......eh, and well....I mean it is all fun and games, but is that not  REALLY, REALLY, REALLY disrespectful?  And considering there are always at least five or so people on the bridge, is this one not near impossible?
> 
> So....did Laan and Una MURDER Dr. . M'Benga daughter when they reflavored the gum using the medical trnsporter?  She is still stuck in there RIGHT?  And they CAN"T use the medical transporter with out ERASING HER PATTERN FOREVER, right?  So did they MURDER that little girl to play Enterprise Bingo?
> 
> So is T'Pring an augment super woman too?  She is a tiny little woman, and she knocks out the criminal guy with one lazy half punch.
> 
> And Spock in T'Prings body wants to keep secret how they...ahem...assaulted someone in public?!?  Yea...space cops doing assult and battery to catch a bad guy is all fun, right?
> 
> Weird how Dr.Bragga is such a Vulcan medical expert, and even knows about 'katara'.s.  Sure he studied on Vulcan, but he seems to know everything.
> 
> And Dr.Bragga uses a sea urchin?  Humm, must be from the Phlox Medical Text....
> 
> Is walking on the ships hull in a force field really "breaking some big rule"?  It seems like very lame.  Like what was their second choice?  Take that 'don't remove' tag off a mattress?
> 
> I mean...if your going to break the rules....then why not get in the Shittlecraft GhostRider and do a fly-by of Starbase Ones control tower.....  I mean if your not called into your CO's office and told "your writing checks your body can't cash", your not breaking a big enough rule....
> 
> Guess Hemmer just stayed on duty?
> 
> The aliens were funny....but boring.  Maybe should have just been more focus on the crew?  Maybe given Orteges her own tiny plot?
> 
> *Oh....I did so love the use of that old tymey word HIJINKS, you sure don't hear that word much anymore*
> 
> And...well...Spock never goes "amock", so why is that in the title?  What, they did not like Freaky Stardate?



I think you liked this episode! You gave it two compliments!


----------



## Stalker0

bloodtide said:


> So is T'Pring an augment super woman too?  She is a tiny little woman, and she knocks out the criminal guy with one lazy half punch.



Vulcans are on average 3 times stronger than a human, so yes compared to a human she is an augment super woman.

That's why the vulcan neck pinch actually works. Technically a human can do it too, but it requires a lot of pressure right in that specific area. Vulcans with their much greater strength can do it easily.


----------



## Thomas Shey

Stalker0 said:


> Vulcans are on average 3 times stronger than a human, so yes compared to a human she is an augment super woman.
> 
> That's why the vulcan neck pinch actually works. Technically a human can do it too, but it requires a lot of pressure right in that specific area. Vulcans with their much greater strength can do it easily.




Yup.  Any bitching about it for other reasons people might have, in the nuTrek movie having Khan fighting with Spock made a _lot_ more sense than having him fight with Kirk.


----------



## Rabulias

Stalker0 said:


> Vulcans are on average 3 times stronger than a human, so yes compared to a human she is an augment super woman.
> 
> That's why the vulcan neck pinch actually works. Technically a human can do it too, but it requires a lot of pressure right in that specific area. Vulcans with their much greater strength can do it easily.



I think he is complaining about Spock-in-T'Pring one-punching another Vulcan, so her Vulcan advantage does not really count here.

In my head, it was Spock's Starfleet hand-to-hand combat training that allowed him to use that one punch most effectively.


----------



## Stalker0

Rabulias said:


> I think he is complaining about Spock-in-T'Pring one-punching another Vulcan, so her Vulcan advantage does not really count here.



Vulcans have 3 times the strength, not 3 times the durability. Hell it doesn't even take a full punch from a human to knock out another human if you land the blow right, so yeah a good solid punch from a Vulcan will knock the lights out.


----------



## bloodtide

Stalker0 said:


> Vulcans are on average 3 times stronger than a human, so yes compared to a human she is an augment super woman.
> 
> That's why the vulcan neck pinch actually works. Technically a human can do it too, but it requires a lot of pressure right in that specific area. Vulcans with their much greater strength can do it easily.



Yea....but is not the Vulcan Guy she punches three times stronger too?  So..it equals out.  

Vulcans are not strong because of magic, it's gravity.  Everything about their bodies physically is "tough" and made for high gravity.


----------



## Ryujin

bloodtide said:


> Yea....but is not the Vulcan Guy she punches three times stronger too?  So..it equals out.
> 
> Vulcans are not strong because of magic, it's gravity.  Everything about their bodies physically is "tough" and made for high gravity.



Three times stronger or not, a sucker punch will likely take you down. I once saw a fight, in a shopping mall, that lasted about three seconds. Three scummy looking guys were walking towards the escalators and saw a Rocker guy, in a jean jacket, coming down them. Lead scum starts crap talking the other guy at the top of his lungs. The other guy grabs the crap talker by the front of his shirt and slugs him once in the face. Crap talker is instantly out, but the other guy hits him twice more before letting the unconscious scummy guy hit the floor. The other two just stood there, shocked.


----------



## Stalker0

Ryujin said:


> Three times stronger or not, a sucker punch will likely take you down.



Good point. One thing TV and Movies have done is make people think humans are WAY more durable than they actually are. Hit us in the right spot, and we get crushed.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Maxperson said:


> In the old series we learn that the Old Ones or whatever they are called seeded life on many planets, as well as move various human cultures to other planets.  It makes sense that there would genetic compatibility in many species if they were seeded by that race.



Worf (and not any of the Vulcans aboard the Enterprise) was supposed to be the one with compatible blood for a Romulan. Star Trek biology is certainly strange. But it probably also helps that Una was genetically engineered (possibly even to be extra-close to regular humans? Don't quite remember if she's officially a human or just some humanoid alien that totally isn't genetically augmented)

I don't now what it is about her, but the first time I saw a clip of Chapel, I liked her. And I still do. Too bad she and Spock will probably never make it.

And the episode also felt a bit like a redemption of T'Pring. In TOS, she seemed quite a cold-blooded woman that would be willing to sacrifice Spock's best friend - or Spock - so she can marry someone else. But maybe it's really stupid Vulcan marriage/divorce rules that drive her to such cold-blooded logic?


----------



## Ryujin

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Worf (and not any of the Vulcans aboard the Enterprise) was supposed to be the one with compatible blood for a Romulan. Star Trek biology is certainly strange. But it probably also helps that Una was genetically engineered (possibly even to be extra-close to regular humans? Don't quite remember if she's officially a human or just some humanoid alien that totally isn't genetically augmented)
> 
> I don't now what it is about her, but the first time I saw a clip of Chapel, I liked her. And I still do. Too bad she and Spock will probably never make it.
> 
> And the episode also felt a bit like a redemption of T'Pring. In TOS, she seemed quite a cold-blooded woman that would be willing to sacrifice Spock's best friend - or Spock - so she can marry someone else. But maybe it's really stupid Vulcan marriage/divorce rules that drive her to such cold-blooded logic?



Una is a humanoid alien, from a race that makes extensive use of genetic augmentation.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Ryujin said:


> Una is a humanoid alien, from a race that makes extensive use of genetic augmentation.



I meant, if "officially" Starfleet believe she's just a human, or just a human-like alien). I know what she actually is in the show.


----------



## Ryujin

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I meant, if "officially" Starfleet believe she's just a human, or just a human-like alien). I know what she actually is in the show.



Ah, OK. Got it. It was pretty heavily implied that they think she's human because, otherwise, as an Illyrian she's not admissible for Federation Service (the genetic augmentation thing).


----------



## Thomas Shey

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Worf (and not any of the Vulcans aboard the Enterprise) was supposed to be the one with compatible blood for a Romulan. Star Trek biology is certainly strange




As I noted (though its not clear to me how canonically this is treated) that most of the humanoid species you see have a sort of indirect (and in some cases not so much) biological connection being the consequence of a Precursor race's intervention.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Thomas Shey said:


> Yup.  Any bitching about it for other reasons people might have, in the nuTrek movie having Khan fighting with Spock made a _lot_ more sense than having him fight with Kirk.



And I think the sacrifice scene worked better than it would have with those versions of the characters if they’d tried to play it the same as the first time around.


----------



## Ondath

I *really, really* missed shows that can take themselves a bit less seriously every now and then. The hijinks! The "Una and La'an having fun" B plot! Captain Pike managing to bring happy tears to my eyes by unexpectedly ending the light-hearted episode with a speech on radical empathy!

I'm just loving this show through and through, I really hope they don't jinx it!


----------



## Stalker0

Episode 6.

I feel like 90% of this episode was really good. Uhuru and L'ann having hijicks, Pike getting the lady, some interesting mystery, etc.

However, it didn't really stick the landing to me. Pike so far has been portrayed as a pretty open minded person, who has empathy for other cultures (heck we literally saw that in the last episode, a focus on empathy). But frankly his reaction to the ascension was too harsh to me. I get it, its a child, and the act is repulsive...but he didn't even try to understand. I mean from Aurora's comments, it sounds like the machine prevents the world from blowing up in fire or something (we never actually learn what it does), and apparently their people have made attempts to use the machine without a child's sacrifice. But Pike was having none of it, he was ready to directly interfere in another culture, literally beat up their guards....all for a kid he just met from a culture he doesn't fully understand. He was the first starfleet officer allowed into this highly technological society's inner dealings....and he came across as a bigot.

Ultimately this could have been a really interesting and nuanced episode, but they were so quick to just make the Magelleans the "bad guys" with this zero tolerance policy that even one sacrifice....no matter how much incredible good it might do....is not only unacceptable, but criminal. Sorry things just aren't that black and white, and in trying to hammer that point across, the episode really fell flat at the end for me.


----------



## tomBitonti

Episode 6 seems to be a retelling of “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”, by Ursula K. Le Guin:








						The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




This is a big idea story, and the series is gutsy for presenting it.  The story is one of my favorites.  The story asks a deep question which is worth thinking about.

Tom Bitonti


----------



## Mort

Stalker0 said:


> Episode 6.
> 
> I feel like 90% of this episode was really good. Uhuru and L'ann having hijicks, Pike getting the lady, some interesting mystery, etc.
> 
> However, it didn't really stick the landing to me. Pike so far has been portrayed as a pretty open minded person, who has empathy for other cultures (heck we literally saw that in the last episode, a focus on empathy). But frankly his reaction to the ascension was too harsh to me. I get it, its a child, and the act is repulsive...but he didn't even try to understand. I mean from Aurora's comments, it sounds like the machine prevents the world from blowing up in fire or something (we never actually learn what it does), and apparently their people have made attempts to use the machine without a child's sacrifice. But Pike was having none of it, he was ready to directly interfere in another culture, literally beat up their guards....all for a kid he just met from a culture he doesn't fully understand. He was the first starfleet officer allowed into this highly technological society's inner dealings....and he came across as a bigot.
> 
> Ultimately this could have been a really interesting and nuanced episode, but they were so quick to just make the Magelleans the "bad guys" with this zero tolerance policy that even one sacrifice....no matter how much incredible good it might do....is not only unacceptable, but criminal. Sorry things just aren't that black and white, and in trying to hammer that point across, the episode really fell flat at the end for me.




Was about 95% for me. 

Could have been a bit more nuanced, sure but it was shown to be a bit of a gut punch and Pike reacting on instinct. At least the writers actually let the conclusion happen. You know on TOS or even TNG they would likely have found and "alternate solution" (or heck, Kirk would have employed his patented talk the machine into shutting down and that would have solved the problem)


----------



## Hex08

Stalker0 said:


> Episode 6.
> 
> I feel like 90% of this episode was really good. Uhuru and L'ann having hijicks, Pike getting the lady, some interesting mystery, etc.
> 
> However, it didn't really stick the landing to me. Pike so far has been portrayed as a pretty open minded person, who has empathy for other cultures (heck we literally saw that in the last episode, a focus on empathy). But frankly his reaction to the ascension was too harsh to me. I get it, its a child, and the act is repulsive...but he didn't even try to understand. I mean from Aurora's comments, it sounds like the machine prevents the world from blowing up in fire or something (we never actually learn what it does), and apparently their people have made attempts to use the machine without a child's sacrifice. But Pike was having none of it, he was ready to directly interfere in another culture, literally beat up their guards....all for a kid he just met from a culture he doesn't fully understand. He was the first starfleet officer allowed into this highly technological society's inner dealings....and he came across as a bigot.
> 
> Ultimately this could have been a really interesting and nuanced episode, but they were so quick to just make the Magelleans the "bad guys" with this zero tolerance policy that even one sacrifice....no matter how much incredible good it might do....is not only unacceptable, but criminal. Sorry things just aren't that black and white, and in trying to hammer that point across, the episode really fell flat at the end for me.



I like that "hijinks" is now becoming how we talk about this show.

I was ok with Pike's reaction. I think his reaction to the treatment of a child was normal human one and in character for him. I thought the story did a good job of examining a complex philosophical problem. We saw Pike's instinctual reaction to the appalling treatment of a child vs the citizens of Majalis willingness to kill a child to ensure their own survival and how they justify an action that they might otherwise find abhorrent. Is the intentional infliction of suffering of a few acceptable if it brings prosperity to the majority (the good of the many...)? How small must that "few" get before it's ok? If Pike were to have walked away and shrugged it off as "I have no right to judge another culture" then I think the whole point of the debate would have been less interesting because the answer becomes "only the culture involved in the act can judge it's rightness". It's not much different than the Trolley Problem. Also, Pike does get an explanation and it's basically "we don't know why it's that way but take our word for it that we have tried to find another solution" and I can understand why that might not be a satisfying answer for him.

As an aside, I guess all of the speculation about what these floating cities were when they were seen in the trailers was wrong. I think a lot of people thought it was supposed to be the floating cities from the TOS episode The Cloud Minders and that turned out not to be the case.


----------



## Hex08

double post deleted


----------



## Morrus

I thought that was an excellent episode. This show isn’t just the best Trek in decades, it’s the best TV on right now.


----------



## BookTenTiger

Morrus said:


> I thought that was an excellent episode. This show isn’t just the best Trek in decades, it’s the best TV on right now.



When the Enterprise got to just shrug off the beams of the other ship, and was overpowering the shuttles, I thought "Morrus will be happy!"

I liked this episode too. All along I knew things were not as they seemed, but the twists were fun to watch. I liked the challenge of a non-federation civilization that had more advanced science, that was a neat concept. And the kid character was cute!

It would be interesting if


Spoiler



M'benga's daughter got cured and she became a more regular part of the series, like the occasional kids on Next Generation.


----------



## Thomas Shey

I don't think ships of that era normally had children on board as an ongoing function.  That was the later TNG "This is a mobile science/diplomatic station more than anything else" thing, because ships were less frequently going into unknown territory.


----------



## Mallus

This was totally “The One Who Beamed Away From Omelas”.


----------



## Stalker0

Mallus said:


> This was totally “The One Who Beamed Away From Omelas”.



I've only read the wiki summary, not the actual tale, so please correct me if I'm wrong. I would say the key difference here is....in the book, the people are gaining "peace and prosperity" through the child's sacrifice. Where again, in the show it was implied through Aurora's reaction to the child missing that the consequences were far more severe....suggesting that it could even lead to some kind of massive earth shattering event.

Its hard to say "sorry your culture is just wrong for using a child like that", when using a child like that literally prevents thousands or millions of people from being killed in geologic earthquakes. This is an area I really wish they had pushed on a bit more, they left that part somewhat vague so its hard to know the stakes by which the child's sacrifice is being compared against.

All that said....where is the freakin backup child?????!!!! If this one child is so dang important, that the state of your planet is at stake, your going to have a spare, hell your going to have 5. I don't care how good your medical and security are, there is no way a modern government would leave their entire future in the hands of a single fragile person and not have dozens of contingency plans.


----------



## Umbran

Stalker0 said:


> But Pike was having none of it, he was ready to directly interfere in another culture




Note - they had warp capability.  The Prime Directive does not apply.



Stalker0 said:


> ... literally beat up their guards....all for a kid he just met from a culture he doesn't fully understand. He was the first starfleet officer allowed into this highly technological society's inner dealings....and he came across as a bigot.




To me, he came across as someone who cannot tolerate intentional harm to children.  It did not help that, though he asked several times, she _refused_ to tell him what was going on.  So, he was left having to deal with it in that moment, no time for questions, consideration, or negotiations.  Go figure he choses to try to stop it, likely to force them to make time for questions and negotiation.



Stalker0 said:


> Ultimately this could have been a really interesting and nuanced episode, but they were so quick to just make the Magelleans the "bad guys" with this zero tolerance policy that even one sacrifice....no matter how much incredible good it might do....is not only unacceptable, but criminal.




Dramatically, you only really have two choices there - either Pike accepts the notion that it is okay for them to make kids suffer for their continued existence, or not. If he accepts it as okay, then there is no moral question.  So, to leave us with questions to think about, he must reject it.


----------



## Stalker0

Umbran said:


> Note - they had warp capability.  The Prime Directive does not apply.
> 
> 
> 
> To me, he came across as someone who cannot tolerate intentional harm to children.  It did not help that, though he asked several times, she _refused_ to tell him what was going on.  So, he was left having to deal with it in that moment, no time for questions, consideration, or negotiations.  Go figure he choses to try to stop it, likely to force them to make time for questions and negotiation.
> 
> 
> 
> Dramatically, you only really have two choices there - either Pike accepts the notion that it is okay for them to make kids suffer for their continued existence, or not. If he accepts it as okay, then there is no moral question.  So, to leave us with questions to think about, he must reject it.



Its not a question of Prime Directive, its a basic tenant of diplomacy. You don't go into another culture that your trying to be on good terms with and start telling them that their garbage...that's just not a great idea.

She refused to tell him because her people's directives forbade her to do so....until she made the effort to finally get him access, to literally show him the process and explain it. That said, I do agree its never the best idea to just show someone a child murder stone cold, you have to a LEAST do a little warming up to the concept....explain the terrible danger on the planet, this is the only way to stop it, we have tried other ways, etc etc. you start with that before showing the child corpse. Realistically a smart diplomatic core would have never done it, they might have explained the process to him, but they would never have taken him into the chamber....ESPECIALLY before the ceremony finished.

I disagree that this is the only way to have drama....or if drama is even really the goal. The drama has already been spent, we had a mystery, and then the big reveal....the twist! Now its time for the philosophical side of star trek, what "learning to work with completely alien cultures" actually means. I don't mind that Pike ultimately has a problem with their culture, I would have been fine if the episode ends with him doing a personal log and talk about how as a starfleet officer he is supposed to be open minded and understanding but this time he just can't see it, aka let him wrestle with the idea. My issue was there wasn't even really a notion of debating or wrestling with the issue, Pike heard the answer, effectively said, "f*** you, you suck" and then beamed out. He was judge and jury for the audience, this culture = bad....no discussion. That's why it fell so flat to me.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Stalker0 said:


> Episode 6.
> 
> I feel like 90% of this episode was really good. Uhuru and L'ann having hijicks, Pike getting the lady, some interesting mystery, etc.
> 
> However, it didn't really stick the landing to me. Pike so far has been portrayed as a pretty open minded person, who has empathy for other cultures (heck we literally saw that in the last episode, a focus on empathy). But frankly his reaction to the ascension was too harsh to me. I get it, its a child, and the act is repulsive...but he didn't even try to understand. I mean from Aurora's comments, it sounds like the machine prevents the world from blowing up in fire or something (we never actually learn what it does), and apparently their people have made attempts to use the machine without a child's sacrifice. But Pike was having none of it, he was ready to directly interfere in another culture, literally beat up their guards....all for a kid he just met from a culture he doesn't fully understand. He was the first starfleet officer allowed into this highly technological society's inner dealings....and he came across as a bigot.
> 
> Ultimately this could have been a really interesting and nuanced episode, but they were so quick to just make the Magelleans the "bad guys" with this zero tolerance policy that even one sacrifice....no matter how much incredible good it might do....is not only unacceptable, but criminal. Sorry things just aren't that black and white, and in trying to hammer that point across, the episode really fell flat at the end for me.



Nah. Every other spacefaring species manages without a child sacrifice powered Uber machine. There is no possible justification.


----------



## Stalker0

Btw I was curious if I had been taking Aurora's speech in proper context, so I decided to rewatch that scene to make sure I heard it right (which with Paramount + commercials was REALLY annoying).

In her speech she says the following:

Our world is over.
Magellus will fall out of the sky
The surface of our world is rivers of acid. Our world will be destroyed.
So....yeah....this isn't killing a kid for some rainbows and sunshine. It literally sounds like whatever that machine does, it sustains their entire ecosystem (or maybe all of their cities are floating, and without the machine they will crash into the surface or something)


----------



## Morrus

BookTenTiger said:


> When the Enterprise got to just shrug off the beams of the other ship, and was overpowering the shuttles, I thought "Morrus will be happy!"



You were right!


----------



## Morrus

Umbran said:


> Dramatically, you only really have two choices there - either Pike accepts the notion that it is okay for them to make kids suffer for their continued existence, or not. If he accepts it as okay, then there is no moral question.  So, to leave us with questions to think about, he must reject it.



And additionally, he's chosen a terrible fate for himself because he can't not save those children in 10 years time. This is clearly very much part of him.


----------



## Janx

Morrus said:


> I thought that was an excellent episode. This show isn’t just the best Trek in decades, it’s the best TV on right now.



Amen. It also harkened back to some of the darker TOS tales where Enterprise doesn't sail off with a happy tune, like Balance of Terror.

I think the one challenge to the planet's plight is that they have space travel and know some people with a bigger truck. They could move.

If my entire way of life depended on sacrificing a kid to appease the local spirits or something, I think I'd move. Or at least expect somebody else to suggest it. and come up with a feeble reason why that's totally not practical.

An additional sign something is jack up with the setup, is how does a civilization develop and advance on such a planet? Odds are good they didn't make it. Heck, for as advanced as they claimed to be, their ships suck, and they didn't know how their own child-sucking machine worked.

But that's my nitpick after thinking about it. I enjoyed the episode.


----------



## beancounter

The episode was pretty good. One thing I noticed is tat in the end, Pike just accepted the child sacrifice and left. Other captains would have found a way to save the kid.

I would have also like a deeper explanation of why they did this other than "we've been doing it for generations, and that how our ancestors arranged it, but we don't know why"


----------



## Umbran

beancounter said:


> The episode was pretty good. One thing I noticed is tat in the end, Pike just accepted the child sacrifice and left. Other captains would have found a way to save the kid.




Other captains were being written in times with a greater myth of exceptionalism, that we always have the answer, and can fix things for other cultures.  Never mind that they have been trying to find an answer for centuries, the captain of a starship can find a solution in 50 minutes!


----------



## beancounter

Umbran said:


> the captain of a starship can find a solution in 50 minutes!




50 minutes our time -  days, perhaps weeks, their time.


----------



## Ryujin

Janx said:


> Amen. It also harkened back to some of the darker TOS tales where Enterprise doesn't sail off with a happy tune, like Balance of Terror.
> 
> I think the one challenge to the planet's plight is that they have space travel and know some people with a bigger truck. They could move.
> 
> If my entire way of life depended on sacrificing a kid to appease the local spirits or something, I think I'd move. Or at least expect somebody else to suggest it. and come up with a feeble reason why that's totally not practical.
> 
> An additional sign something is jack up with the setup, is how does a civilization develop and advance on such a planet? Odds are good they didn't make it. Heck, for as advanced as they claimed to be, their ships suck, and they didn't know how their own child-sucking machine worked.
> 
> But that's my nitpick after thinking about it. I enjoyed the episode.



Even the "we don't know how it works" aspect was traditional Trek. Remember "Spock's Brain"? "Brain and brain. What is brain? It is Controller?" "The Paradise Syndrome" in which a tribe of Native Americans didn't know that their place of worship is an asteroid deflector? "For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky" in which the inhabitants of an asteroid spaceship don't know they're travelling through space? They're an insular society. They turned inward, where most others turned outward. Their medical tech advanced beyond that of The Federation. Their ships didn't, because they didn't need them.

Their 'machine' took away any of their needs in a post scarcity type society but as it's self sustaining, other than needing a child to eat every now and then, they lost the ability to understand, build, or repair it. We might see this planet get a revisit some time in the future, when they've lost their wonderful machine.


----------



## Mallus

Stalker0 said:


> I've only read the wiki summary, not the actual tale, so please correct me if I'm wrong. I would say the key difference here is....in the book, the people are gaining "peace and prosperity" through the child's sacrifice. Where again, in the show it was implied through Aurora's reaction to the child missing that the consequences were far more severe....suggesting that it could even lead to some kind of massive earth shattering event.



The consequences for not torturing the child are more severe in the SNW episode than in the original short story, but it's the same basic thought experiment.


Stalker0 said:


> Its hard to say "sorry your culture is just wrong for using a child like that", when using a child like that literally prevents thousands or millions of people from being killed in geologic earthquakes. This is an area I really wish they had pushed on a bit more, they left that part somewhat vague so its hard to know the stakes by which the child's sacrifice is being compared against.



But was the culture wrong for designing such a system in the first place? Were there other options that didn't require the sacrifice of a child? Alora admits her people have been searching for another solution, but haven't been able to find one.


Stalker0 said:


> All that said....where is the freakin backup child?????!!!! If this one child is so dang important, that the state of your planet is at stake, your going to have a spare, hell your going to have 5.



The thought experiment works better when you reduce the size of the disenfranchised population to one (child).


----------



## Ondath

Episode 6 really felt like a good TNG episode to me - in particular, "the fate of the future important figure of the planet is unpleasant for our sensibilities" is pretty much the same theme as The Dauphin and The Perfect Mate, only it's no longer about young, innocent alien girls falling for our exceptional Starfleet males and more about the unpleasant fate being a metaphor for our own social ills. It was really good commentary IMO, and it walked the fine line between having an interesting insight about today's political issues and being sci-fi enough to make it interesting. The romance plotline for Pike was also straight out of something Riker could've gone through. As a major TNG fan, this hit all the spots for me.

Six for six!


----------



## Benjamin Olson

Ondath said:


> Episode 6 really felt like a good TNG episode to me - in particular, "the fate of the future important figure of the planet is unpleasant for our sensibilities" is pretty much the same theme as The Dauphin and The Perfect Mate, only it's no longer about young, innocent alien girls falling for our exceptional Starfleet males and more about the unpleasant fate being a metaphor for our own social ills. It was really good commentary IMO, and it walked the fine line between having an interesting insight about today's political issues and being sci-fi enough to make it interesting. The romance plotline for Pike was also straight out of something Riker could've gone through. As a major TNG fan, this hit all the spots for me.
> 
> Six for six!




I agree completely, except to say that this was also much better than the equivalent episode of TNG probably would have been, because TNG romantic interest of the week characters were almost never as memorable or interesting as Alora was, because TNG also would have felt compelled to give her a more unambiguous villain turn, because TNG would struggle with not responding to her question of "can you honestly say no child suffers in poverty for your Federation" with "Yes, in our perfect Federation there is no poverty, we solved these problems long ago" (rather than PIke having no response and letting the audience sit with the discomfort of that), because TNG had a habit of undercutting moral dilemmas by solving them with some final act deus-ex-technobabble, and because the TNG version of the planet would have been like three fairly basic, vaguely futuristic sets redressed from earlier in the season. Maybe an equivalent TNG episode would have avoided some of these pitfalls, but it would have been quite the exceptional TNG episode to avoid all of them. I love that show, but it definitely had some habits and limitations that have not aged quite so well.

Which is all to say that this was a great episode and it feels like, with the more limited production runs, better tech, and higher budgets of modern Trek actually applied to good Trek storytelling fundamentals (but with a little more nuance than 90s Trek trusted the audience with) this series has every potential to be (massive nostalgia for other Treks aside) the best Star Trek series ever made.


----------



## bloodtide

S1E6

Oh....at the Edge of Federation Space, right where the ship should be 

Pike is like lets go to the ready room....um, sick bay should be first and alien guy reminds him

So....did not Laan and Una MURDER Doc M'Bengas daughter when they played Enterprise Bingo last epsiode?  They went to SICKBAY and USED the TRANSPORTER that daughter is stored in....so that ERASED HER PATTERN and KILLED her, right?

Maybe Cadet Uhura should not have been at the controls during a real action?

The Enterprise tractor beam just looks like a searchlight?

And everyone just forgets to fire phasers to take out the ships _engines?_

The Enterprise Deck 17 sure is filled with junk just sitting in the hallways?

The "Brig" is just a room with a sofa?

Um...so the question is "does not a single kid go hungry in the Federation?"  Well.....the answer is NO, right?

And really does a hungry kid compare to....plugging a kid into a Death Machine?

So is not the alien guy going to save/cure Docs Daughter with his Super Science?

This epsiode sure did have classic Trek/Next Generation vibes.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg

SNARFZODIACKILLER EPISODE 6 REVIEW

ALL KILLER, NO FILLER. SO AFTER AN EPISODE OF SHORE LEAVE THAT WAS CHOCK FULL O' JINX, IT WAS TIME TO GET BACK INTO THE ACTION.

AND LIKE AC/DC, THIS EPISODE WAS BACK IN BLACK. WHAT IS THAT? THE SOUND OF A SHUTTLE ... IN DISTRESS? OH YEAH! IT'S TIME TO GET IT ON. IT'S TIME FOR THE ENTERPRISE TO GET ALL PAX ROMANA ON SOME PEEPS.

KNOCK KNOCK.

WHO THERE?

IM SORRY, I CANT HERE YOU OVER THE SOUND OF MY CONSTITUTION-CLASS AWESOMENESS! SET PHASERS TO ACCIDENTALLY BLOW UP THE EVIDENCE, ENSIGN, WE COME IN PEACE (SHOOT TO KILL).

AND WHO DID WE RESCUE? LOOKS LIKE SOME ALIEN SPACE BABE. HAVENT SEEN EYES TRYING TO HAVE THE HOT LUVIN' SINCE THAT GREAT WHITESNAKE VIDEO. WHAT GREAT WHITESNAKE VIDEO?

TRICK QUESTION, UHURU. SECURITY KNOWS THAT ALL WHITESNAKE VIDEOS ARE GREAT.

BUT LOOK AT PIKE. HE KNOWS THAT HE IS GONNA GET UP IN THAT LADYS BIZNESS LIKE SHATKIRK. BUT HE PLAYS IT ALL COY. HES A MODERN KIRK, PLAYING HARD TO GET. BUT YOU KNOW ITS GOING TO GET REAL. BECAUSE THE LADY IS TOO NICE, AND THE MAN IS TOO MEAN AND SUSPICIOUS. GONNA HAFTA BE A SWITCHEROO BY THE END OF THIS EPISODE.

OH HEY- REMEMBER THAT THE DOC HAD A TRANSPORTER KID? I DIDNT EITHER. I THINK HER NAME IS DEUS EX. MAYBE SEE HER IN ANOTHER FIVE EPISODES?

SO PIKE GOES TO THE PLANET, AND THEY HAVE A BUDGET FOR PLANET SCENES. NICE. AND THE LADY TOTALLY SCORES HERSELF SOME PIKE. THAT MEANS THAT SHE HAS TO DIE OR IS THE BADDIE. CANT HAVE ROMANCE WEIGHING DOWN THE CAP.

BACK ON THE SPACESHIP, BABY KHAAN AND UHURU ARE BONDING LIKE #FREEHEMMER AND UHURU. JUST UNCOVERING SKULDUGGERY. AND THEN BOOM MAJOR TRANSPORTER SCENE. WOAH. ANON TRANSPORTER CREWMAN CANT STOP THE BEAMOUT.

AND ANON TRANSPORTER CREWMAN IS ALL LIKE IF IMA GET THIS LITTLE PERSONALITY AND SCREENTIME ON THIS CREW, IMA APPLY FOR A TRANSFER TO STAR TREK: BURNHAM.  #GIVEHIMANUHURUEPISODE

SO OF COURSE PIKES NEW OLD NEW LADYFRIEND IS ALL EVIL. ALL ABOUT THE BABY KILLING. EXCEPT ONLY KIND OF SORT OF EVIL. WHICH .... I MEAN... SHES HOT. SHES INTO PIKE. SHES OKAY WITH THE OCCASIONAL CHILD SACRIFICE.

I THINK IM IN LOVE. SO METAL. LIKE AN ALIEN BOBBI BROWN.

BUT PIKE IS NOT DOWN WITH THAT. MAJOR MORAL DILEMMA. SURE, PIKE CAN SACRIIFICE HIS FEW TO SAVE THE MANY, BUT THIS IS A CHILD, AND DIFFERENT. BECAUSE REASONS!

AND THEN WE END ON A SCENE THAT TRULY ENCAPSULATES THE NUANCES AND MIXED EMOTIONS THAT THIS SHOW IS BRINGING OUT. LIKE HEARING GNR IS GETTING BACK TOGETHER AND THEN FINDING OUT THAT NO, ITS JUST AXL AGAIN.

PIKE, PENSING AND FURROWING AT THE WINDOW.
ON THE ONE HAND, THE CHILD DIED.
ON THE OTHER HAND ... HE SCORED. HE TOTALLY SCORED.

RATING: 8 1/2 BIZARRO STORMIES


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Hex08 said:


> I like that "hijinks" is now becoming how we talk about this show.
> 
> I was ok with Pike's reaction. I think his reaction to the treatment of a child was normal human one and in character for him. I thought the story did a good job of examining a complex philosophical problem. We saw Pike's instinctual reaction to the appalling treatment of a child vs the citizens of Majalis willingness to kill a child to ensure their own survival and how they justify an action that they might otherwise find abhorrent. Is the intentional infliction of suffering of a few acceptable if it brings prosperity to the majority (the good of the many...)? How small must that "few" get before it's ok?



This will be a flawed answer as any to the dilemma, but I think it's not about the "size", but about it being a personal self-sacrifice, not a majority killing a minority because it's the most convenient thing. Spock didn't push Scotty or McCoy into the warp core, he went himself! 
In this case some might argue it was self-sacrifice, the boy knew that it wouldn't be good for him, but... he's also just a boy. Smart as he may be, he was selected for this role before he could really understand it, and everything they taught him was that it was what he had to do, so how much chance had he really to come to any different conclusion, how free was his choice?


----------



## Snarf Zagyg

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> This will be a flawed answer as any to the dilemma, but I think it's not about the "size", but about it being a personal self-sacrifice, not a majority killing a minority because it's the most convenient thing. Spock didn't push Scotty or McCoy into the warp core, he went himself!
> In this case some might argue it was self-sacrifice, the boy knew that it wouldn't be good for him, but... he's also just a boy. Smart as he may be, he was selected for this role before he could really understand it, and everything they taught him was that it was what he had to do, so how much chance had he really to come to any different conclusion, how free was his choice?




(So, I think this really is a credit to the brilliance of this show. To me, this episode ... to date ...  perfectly encapsulates how SNW take the spirit of TOS and extends it in new ways.

At a fundamental level, the basic premise behind the episode is similar to classic TOS high concept episodes (or some TNG episodes)- think, for example, of A Taste of Armageddon. If that doesn't ring a bell, it's the one where two warring planets "solve" the problem of war by just having computers run the simulations and have people report to execution booths.

At its most simple, this episode is also a high concept premise done in a single episode- when is it acceptable to sacrifice a person for the good of the many? It's something that is difficult, and deeply resonant in terms of moral reasoning, made more difficult by some of the facts- the sacrifice is of a single person and provably makes the society a utopia; but it is also of a child who cannot consent, and as pointed out ... it's not painless .... it's pain the entire time.

But what really elevates the episode is the modern touches. There is obvious- the continued incorporation of strong "B plots (such as the Uhuru security training in the episode and the Doctor's daughter in the transporter buffer), but more importantly, the reliance on what we have learned in the past to deepen the meaning of the episode.

Here, the central dynamic is between Alora and Pike. We know (from the first episode) that Pike is familiar with the Netflix and Chill to get his FWB time. But this is clearly different. As we learn during the episode, they met when they were younger when Alora was on a mission to try and learn ways to not have to do the child sacrifice. In addition, her planet turned down Federation membership- at first, I thought that it might be because the Federation would require them to stop, but then I remembered the Federation allows member worlds some pretty specific cultural practices .... combine the two (along with the rebels) and you know that at least among the elite of the planet, there is a feeling of shame- a knowledge that this is wrong, or at least not right. 

Which explains her actions at the end. WHY SHOW PIKE THE CEREMONY? Because she loved him, and she wanted to be seen. When they first met, she was still idealistic and looking for a solution- that's why she was there needing to be rescued the first time. She didn't want to hide this from him- she wanted him to see and understand why she sacrificed those earlier ideals. And his utter rejection (including teleporting out) led to her tears- a reminder of _what she had sacrificed as she had grown older for her sense of duty_.

Meanwhile, Pike is left both realizing that he had allowed his feelings for Alora to overcome his natural skepticism, which led to the tragedy. And that while the circumstances were different, his dogmatic insistence on his sacrifice was the same rationale he just heard parroted back to him. And, in a certain way, his ideals and sense of duty had led to him being alone, staring out into space.

Both of them left realizing that they cannot recapture that past, and questioning how they came to the place they are at. Just a well-done and devastating ending that adds additional emotional resonance to a well-done high concept episode.)


----------



## beancounter

Ryujin said:


> Even the "we don't know how it works" aspect was traditional Trek. Remember "Spock's Brain"? "Brain and brain. What is brain? It is Controller?" "The Paradise Syndrome" in which a tribe of Native Americans didn't know that their place of worship is an asteroid deflector? "For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky" in which the inhabitants of an asteroid spaceship don't know they're travelling through space? They're an insular society. They turned inward, where most others turned outward. Their medical tech advanced beyond that of The Federation. Their ships didn't, because they didn't need them.
> 
> Their 'machine' took away any of their needs in a post scarcity type society but as it's self sustaining, other than needing a child to eat every now and then, they lost the ability to understand, build, or repair it. We might see this planet get a revisit some time in the future, when they've lost their wonderful machine.



Thanks for that explanation!


----------



## Ondath

Benjamin Olson said:


> I agree completely, except to say that this was also much better than the equivalent episode of TNG probably would have been, because TNG romantic interest of the week characters were almost never as memorable or interesting as Alora was, because TNG also would have felt compelled to give her a more unambiguous villain turn, because TNG would struggle with not responding to her question of "can you honestly say no child suffers in poverty for your Federation" with "Yes, in our perfect Federation there is no poverty, we solved these problems long ago" (rather than PIke having no response and letting the audience sit with the discomfort of that), because TNG had a habit of undercutting moral dilemmas by solving them with some final act deus-ex-technobabble, and because the TNG version of the planet would have been like three fairly basic, vaguely futuristic sets redressed from earlier in the season. Maybe an equivalent TNG episode would have avoided some of these pitfalls, but it would have been quite the exceptional TNG episode to avoid all of them. I love that show, but it definitely had some habits and limitations that have not aged quite so well.
> 
> Which is all to say that this was a great episode and it feels like, with the more limited production runs, better tech, and higher budgets of modern Trek actually applied to good Trek storytelling fundamentals (but with a little more nuance than 90s Trek trusted the audience with) this series has every potential to be (massive nostalgia for other Treks aside) the best Star Trek series ever made.



I agree and disagree. TNG writing could sometimes get rather weird, admittedly, but the two TNG episodes this episode reminded me of (The Dauphin and The Perfect Mate) did have bittersweet endings: In both, Picard/Wesley has to accept that the future important figure of the planet will carry on their unpleasant task. But you're right in that TNG not being able criticise the Federation society and seeing it as a utopia did make things one-sided most of the time. It became especially appalling when this utopic vision clashed visibly with the Prime Directive, and Picard chose the Prime Directive anyway. It really didn't paint the Federation's idealism in a good light then, and I think Pike's current gung-ho approach the not-yet-formed Prime Directive is a much better norm.


Snarf Zagyg said:


> (So, I think this really is a credit to the brilliance of this show. To me, this episode ... to date ...  perfectly encapsulates how SNW take the spirit of TOS and extends it in new ways.
> 
> At a fundamental level, the basic premise behind the episode is similar to classic TOS high concept episodes (or some TNG episodes)- think, for example, of A Taste of Armageddon. If that doesn't ring a bell, it's the one where two warring planets "solve" the problem of war by just having computers run the simulations and have people report to execution booths.
> 
> At its most simple, this episode is also a high concept premise done in a single episode- when is it acceptable to sacrifice a person for the good of the many? It's something that is difficult, and deeply resonant in terms of moral reasoning, made more difficult by some of the facts- the sacrifice is of a single person and provably makes the society a utopia; but it is also of a child who cannot consent, and as pointed out ... it's not painless .... it's pain the entire time.
> 
> But what really elevates the episode is the modern touches. There is obvious- the continued incorporation of strong "B plots (such as the Uhuru security training in the episode and the Doctor's daughter in the transporter buffer), but more importantly, the reliance on what we have learned in the past to deepen the meaning of the episode.
> 
> Here, the central dynamic is between Alora and Pike. We know (from the first episode) that Pike is familiar with the Netflix and Chill to get his FWB time. But this is clearly different. As we learn during the episode, they met when they were younger when Alora was on a mission to try and learn ways to not have to do the child sacrifice. In addition, her planet turned down Federation membership- at first, I thought that it might be because the Federation would require them to stop, but then I remembered the Federation allows member worlds some pretty specific cultural practices .... combine the two (along with the rebels) and you know that at least among the elite of the planet, there is a feeling of shame- a knowledge that this is wrong, or at least not right.
> 
> Which explains her actions at the end. WHY SHOW PIKE THE CEREMONY? Because she loved him, and she wanted to be seen. When they first met, she was still idealistic and looking for a solution- that's why she was there needing to be rescued the first time. She didn't want to hide this from him- she wanted him to see and understand why she sacrificed those earlier ideals. And his utter rejection (including teleporting out) led to her tears- a reminder of _what she had sacrificed as she had grown older for her sense of duty_.
> 
> Meanwhile, Pike is left both realizing that he had allowed his feelings for Alora to overcome his natural skepticism, which led to the tragedy. And that while the circumstances were different, his dogmatic insistence on his sacrifice was the same rationale he just heard parroted back to him. And, in a certain way, his ideals and sense of duty had led to him being alone, staring out into space.
> 
> Both of them left realizing that they cannot recapture that past, and questioning how they came to the place they are at. Just a well-done and devastating ending that adds additional emotional resonance to a well-done high concept episode.)



You know how you see a review and it explains what's good about a good product so well that your appreciation for the reviewed product increases?
This is one such review.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Stalker0 said:


> Btw I was curious if I had been taking Aurora's speech in proper context, so I decided to rewatch that scene to make sure I heard it right (which with Paramount + commercials was REALLY annoying).
> 
> In her speech she says the following:
> 
> Our world is over.
> Magellus will fall out of the sky
> The surface of our world is rivers of acid. Our world will be destroyed.
> So....yeah....this isn't killing a kid for some rainbows and sunshine. It literally sounds like whatever that machine does, it sustains their entire ecosystem (or maybe all of their cities are floating, and without the machine they will crash into the surface or something)



Cool so leave the planet. 

The "kid in a basement powers the good luck of the village" thought experiment has the basic problem that those people could just, instead, accept the fate of living like everyone else in the world does, and experiencing some hardships. 

At least in this case, it's a choice between eternal damnation of everyone involved (if such a thing exists) and their people having to abandon their home world, rather than just sacrificing a kid to make their lives more comfortable, but it's still a bunk dilemma.


----------



## BookTenTiger

doctorbadwolf said:


> Cool so leave the planet.
> 
> The "kid in a basement powers the good luck of the village" thought experiment has the basic problem that those people could just, instead, accept the fate of living like everyone else in the world does, and experiencing some hardships.
> 
> At least in this case, it's a choice between eternal damnation of everyone involved (if such a thing exists) and their people having to abandon their home world, rather than just sacrificing a kid to make their lives more comfortable, but it's still a bunk dilemma.



This scenario would be fun to present to a D&D group, because they would either burn down the village to save the kid, go on an epic quest to find another source of power, or sacrifice a bunch of other kids in order to get even more power! The one thing no D&D group would do is let it be.


----------



## Ryujin

BookTenTiger said:


> This scenario would be fun to present to a D&D group, because they would either burn down the village to save the kid, go on an epic quest to find another source of power, or sacrifice a bunch of other kids in order to get even more power! The one thing no D&D group would do is let it be.



"We're here, so clearly we're supposed to do _something_!"


----------



## Arilyn

doctorbadwolf said:


> Cool so leave the planet.
> 
> The "kid in a basement powers the good luck of the village" thought experiment has the basic problem that those people could just, instead, accept the fate of living like everyone else in the world does, and experiencing some hardships.
> 
> At least in this case, it's a choice between eternal damnation of everyone involved (if such a thing exists) and their people having to abandon their home world, rather than just sacrificing a kid to make their lives more comfortable, but it's still a bunk dilemma.



I think the fact that the denizens of the planet will not leave their "paradise" is very telling. It also provides an excellent mirror for our own society. We sacrifice a lot of others (and our environment) to maintain our own wealth and comfort.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

BookTenTiger said:


> This scenario would be fun to present to a D&D group, because they would either burn down the village to save the kid, go on an epic quest to find another source of power, or sacrifice a bunch of other kids in order to get even more power! The one thing no D&D group would do is let it be.



Very true. "Who cares?" might come out of one PC whose player really likes the apathetic characters from bioware games, but otherwise, something is going to hit the fan.


Arilyn said:


> I think the fact that the denizens of the planet will not leave their "paradise" is very telling. It also provides an excellent mirror for our own society. We sacrifice a lot of others (and our environment) to maintain our own wealth and comfort.



One thousand percent.


----------



## Morrus

Arilyn said:


> I think the fact that the denizens of the planet will not leave their "paradise" is very telling. It also provides an excellent mirror for our own society. We sacrifice a lot of others (and our environment) to maintain our own wealth and comfort.



Well some of them did. But it’s a metaphor for our western civilisation built on the suffering of others — none of us are rushing to leave paradise.


----------



## Arilyn

Morrus said:


> Well some of them did. But it’s a metaphor for our western civilisation built on the suffering of others — none of us are rushing to leave paradise.



Yes, leaving the episode ending with a bit of hope.


----------



## Hex08

Janx said:


> If my entire way of life depended on sacrificing a kid to appease the local spirits or something, I think I'd move. Or at least expect somebody else to suggest it. and come up with a feeble reason why that's totally not practical.



I think this is what makes it a good episode, that people just accept abhorrent things all of the time and are good at justifying it. Take slavery as an example, in the west we find it horrible but we still buy and eat seafood and if reports are true then Thailand, one of the world's largest seafood exporters, uses slave labor to work fishing boats. We all buy consumer goods from China without a second thought but they engage in some horrific labor practices. Cobalt for batteries and precious gems come from nations with questionable practices. I think this episode does an excellent job of pointing out society will tolerate some really bad stuff and that it's reasonable, and possibly right, for an outsider to be offended and try to intervene.


----------



## Ryujin

It's "The Trolley Problem" on steroids. Would you divert the trolley to run over one child, so that millions could live in luxury?


----------



## Hex08

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> This will be a flawed answer as any to the dilemma, but I think it's not about the "size", but about it being a personal self-sacrifice, not a majority killing a minority because it's the most convenient thing. Spock didn't push Scotty or McCoy into the warp core, he went himself!
> In this case some might argue it was self-sacrifice, the boy knew that it wouldn't be good for him, but... he's also just a boy. Smart as he may be, he was selected for this role before he could really understand it, and everything they taught him was that it was what he had to do, so how much chance had he really to come to any different conclusion, how free was his choice?



I would say not very free. As you say, he is just a boy and we get to see the look of horror on his face once he sees the corpse of the previous child and realizes what's going to happen to him.


----------



## Ryujin

Hex08 said:


> I would say not very free. As you say, he is just a boy and we get to see the look of horror on his face once he see the corpse of the previous child and realizes what's going to happen to him.



Yeah, not enough time to come to an informed conclusion, after seeing what his fate would be.


----------



## BookTenTiger

Hex08 said:


> I would say not very free. As you say, he is just a boy and we get to see the look of horror on his face once he see the corpse of the previous child and realizes what's going to happen to him.



And he was such a cute, friendly kid!

It would have been a funny twist if the kid was a demanding brat. Not that he'd deserve his fate, but it's always the cute kids who get sacrificed!


----------



## Ryujin

BookTenTiger said:


> And he was such a cute, friendly kid!
> 
> It would have been a funny twist if the kid was a demanding brat. Not that he'd deserve his fate, but it's always the cute kids who get sacrificed!



Well otherwise you might think the little #@!%$#%^^& deserved it.


----------



## Maxperson

Stalker0 said:


> Pike heard the answer, effectively said, "f*** you, you suck" and then beamed out. He was judge and jury for the audience, this culture = bad....no discussion. That's why it fell so flat to me.



In about 10 years he is going to sacrifice himself to save the life of a bunch of young Federation cadets(kids).  It's something he feels very, very strongly about.


----------



## Stalker0

Episode 7
Another just fun episode. Though I called the councilor being a pirate a mile away, it was fun to see an actress just go so over the top on a star trek show. No real notes on this one, just a good old time.


----------



## Rabulias

Stalker0 said:


> Episode 7
> Another just fun episode. Though I called the councilor being a pirate a mile away, it was fun to see an actress just go so over the top on a star trek show. No real notes on this one, just a good old time.



Yeah, but that last scene! Could SNW be looking to take one of the weakest parts of Star Trek canon and do something interesting with it? I guess it fits with Spock's duality issues here though. He has a previously unknown (prior to _ST: Discovery_) adopted full-human sister who _embraces _Vulcan ways, and a previously unknown (prior to _Star Trek V_) full-Vulcan half-brother who _rejects _Vulcan ways.


----------



## Rabulias

Also, this episode's focus on the pirates and ne'er do wells of the Star Trek universe, cheered me up for another reason. At the conclusion of _ST: Discovery_ season 2, one of my thoughts was "Dang. No more of Rainn Wilson's Harry Mudd, I guess." Others have probably realized before now that a Mudd appearance on SNW is still possible, but the thought just hit me today!


----------



## Mallus

Was not expecting the latest episode of SNW to namecheck both Maggie Nelson and Sybok. Color me surprised.

So far they’re 7 for 7. Loved how Pike fizbinned the pirate crew and the bittersweet Gilbert and Sullivan scene where Spock and Chapel kissed.


----------



## Umbran

Alpha _*Braga*_ IV?


----------



## Mallus

Umbran said:


> Alpha _*Braga*_ IV?



Wow I didn’t get it until I saw written down.


----------



## Stalker0

Umbran said:


> Alpha _*Braga*_ IV?



I don’t get it


----------



## Blackrat

Stalker0 said:


> I don’t get it



Brannon Braga was the showrunner on ST in the late 90’s / early 00’s period. So, an easter egg nod to his contributions.


----------



## Umbran

Stalker0 said:


> I don’t get it




Branon Braga got his start as an intern on ST: TNG, and worked his way up to producing on the show.  He's also been a producer, exec producer, and writer on ST: Voyager and ST: Enterprise (on which he also has a creator credit), and has writing credit on the movies Star Trek Generations and Star Trek: First Contact.

More recently, he's a producer on The Orville...


----------



## Hex08

The twist with the councilor was pretty obvious but that's ok, the episode was tons of fun. I'm really enjoying that T'Pring and Spock's relationship is being explored in the show. And Jess Bush is amazing, the way Chapel looked at Spock when the kiss was over made me believe she was heads over heals for him.


----------



## Aeson

I thought having a trans actress as the villain was a nice touch. I saw it early on also, but was ok with it. Also having her speak to Spock about his dual nature was genius. Who better to speak on spanning two worlds?


----------



## Aeson

Arilyn said:


> I think the fact that the denizens of the planet will not leave their "paradise" is very telling. It also provides an excellent mirror for our own society. We sacrifice a lot of others (and our environment) to maintain our own wealth and comfort.



_Tries, and fails to avoid mentioning Uvalde, Buffalo, Orlando, Las Vegas, El Paso, and too many more._


----------



## bloodtide

S1E7

The Edge of the Federation again....in the Wild Wild West of space

They call Pike the "Boy Scout"....but ARE there even Boy Scouts in the 23rd century?  

Odd how Spock looks at one scan of the laser net and knows everything about it and can shoot down everything anyone says with a "nope won't work".

Lucky guest star lady is smarter then Spock to get out of the energy net

Una says "battle stations" and all the bridge crew duck down and hide behind their chairs?  Bit of an odd battle stations, bit more like coward stations.

So Una, Laan and Ortega have phasers?  Why?  It's not part of the standard uniform?  And if they had them as they are in the Wild West....then would not ALL of the bridge crew have them?  

Oh no a starship on Star Trek is taken over by space pirates...again.....and super easily, but then one tap of the Easy Reset Button and it's all over like it never happened

Well...and Angel surprise betrayal was not so shocking....

Granted Nurse Chapple is just a nurse....and not too bright....but how exactly was she going to call for help?  The Federation is way, way, way, way far away.  

So the Enterprise goes from the Edge of the Federation to the metting place a couple seconds?

Sure is amazing T'Pring is not just a cop/agent, but she is also warden of the Vulcan prison.  And captain of the prison transport too.

Wow that fake mutiny subplot sure worked in like seconds?

How does Pike re take control of the Enterprise?  Would not Angel would have changed the codes?

Sybock?!  Sigh....


----------



## Stalker0

bloodtide said:


> Lucky guest star lady is smarter then Spock to get out of the energy net



Considering it was her team that set it, and the whole point was to gain more trust with the crew....of course she knew how to disable it.


----------



## Mallus

bloodtide said:


> They call Pike the "Boy Scout"....but ARE there even Boy Scouts in the 23rd century?



Probably not. But there are in the 21st century, where the audience is.


bloodtide said:


> Una says "battle stations" and all the bridge crew duck down and hide behind their chairs?  Bit of an odd battle stations, bit more like coward stations.



It's called 'taking cover'.


bloodtide said:


> Granted Nurse Chapple is just a nurse....and not too bright....but how exactly was she going to call for help?  The Federation is way, way, way, way far away.



They have this thing called 'subspace radio'. Its signal propagates at around 52,000c. Chapel tried to access the ship's comms but was locked out.


bloodtide said:


> So the Enterprise goes from the Edge of the Federation to the metting place a couple seconds?



To a meeting at the edge of Federation space, yes.


bloodtide said:


> Sure is amazing T'Pring is not just a cop/agent, but she is also warden of the Vulcan prison.



And Spock's dad is an ambassador. I guess there are well-connected families on Vulcan, too.


bloodtide said:


> Wow that fake mutiny subplot sure worked in like seconds?



It was a real enough mutiny that Pike instigated. It also wasn't the main story.


bloodtide said:


> How does Pike re take control of the Enterprise?  Would not Angel would have changed the codes?



The same way Kirk retook control of the Enterprise remotely in Wrath. With the backdoor codes that Angel doesn't know about.


bloodtide said:


> Sybock?!  Sigh....



Agreed. But who knows? Maybe they'll do something more interesting with him? The bar is low.

Also, I felt like you really phoned it in this week. Gotta step up your game, man.


----------



## Ryujin

Did anyone else notice that T'Pring's assistant was Stonn?


----------



## Mort

Ryujin said:


> Did anyone else notice that T'Pring's assistant was Stonn?




No!

Wow, good catch.


----------



## Omand

Ryujin said:


> Did anyone else notice that T'Pring's assistant was Stonn?



I did indeed notice that.

The writers are perhaps setting something up for later in the series, or just a nod to the original episode.

Cheers


----------



## Ondath

Finally got around to watching Episode 7. It was a solid 7/10 to me, nothing groundbreaking like the earlier few episodes, but a fun romp with a villain who's just going *HAM*. I should catch up on the TOS lore on Sybok, but I'm kinda worried with the focus they're putting on the T'Pring-Spock relationship so far. Since this is a prequel, we know how things will ultimately end with Amok Time. So how much tension can they put in this story?


----------



## billd91

I’m really enjoying the scrappy Nurse Chapel… and her growing chemistry with Spock.


----------



## Morrus

This one was OK. I think the weakest of the series so far, though I still enjoyed it. I felt like it could have been an amazing 'Die Hard on a Spaceship' and it kinda wasn't. Plus a couple of issues that bugged me -

1) Where was the crew? This is a starship with hundreds of people aboard, including an entire society department. How did like 7 people take over the ship? Was there a note about everybody being on shore leave or something?

2) They're 2 days away from subspace comms (which is presumably faster than travel, or else you'd just fly there and tell them yourself) -- but the Vulcans arrive in literally a minute or so, JJ Abrams style.

3) If the Vulcans can arrive in a minute, why not an entire Starfleet task force? Surely she'd have just called 999 and the episode would be over. The pirate pan only worked because comms were shut down, but the moment they communicated with T'Pring, that's gone. The message is out.

Also I made an adventure which actually was Die Hard on a Spaceship, and it's awesome, and I totally had the Enterprise in mind when I did it.









						SolSpace: The Spartan Gambit
					

THE COPERNICUS IS UNDER SIEGE!When a landing party returns to the USF Copernicus, they find that it has been taken over by a Spartan terrorist group. Can they retake the ship before the Spartans break into the main bridge? Welcome to The Spartan Gambit, a science fiction adventure sourcebook set...



					enpublishingrpg.com


----------



## Ryujin

Morrus said:


> This one was OK. I think the weakest of the series so far, though I still enjoyed it. I felt like it could have been an amazing 'Die Hard on a Spaceship' and it kinda wasn't. Plus a couple of issues that bugged me -
> 
> 1) Where was the crew? This is a starship with hundreds of people aboard, including an entire society department. How did like 7 people take over the ship? Was there a note about everybody being on shore leave or something?
> 
> 2) They're 2 days away from subspace comms (which is presumably faster than travel, or else you'd just fly there and tell them yourself) -- but the Vulcans arrive in literally a minute or so, JJ Abrams style.
> 
> 3) If the Vulcans can arrive in a minute, why not an entire Starfleet task force? Surely she'd have just called 999 and the episode would be over. The pirate pan only worked because comms were shut down, but the moment they communicated with T'Pring, that's gone. The message is out.
> 
> Also I made an adventure which actually was Die Hard on a Spaceship, and it's awesome, and I totally had the Enterprise in mind when I did it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SolSpace: The Spartan Gambit
> 
> 
> THE COPERNICUS IS UNDER SIEGE!When a landing party returns to the USF Copernicus, they find that it has been taken over by a Spartan terrorist group. Can they retake the ship before the Spartans break into the main bridge? Welcome to The Spartan Gambit, a science fiction adventure sourcebook set...
> 
> 
> 
> enpublishingrpg.com



I think that there were significantly more than 7 pirates. Think of it like a naval vessel, or like an army fort. There would only be a very few of the crew who would be actively armed. The rest of the weapons would be locked down and given out on an at-need basis. I was quite surprised that they had weapons stowed on the bridge.

Yeah, T'Pring got there pretty quick. That. or they fast-forwarded to when she did arrive, like they did for their travel to get there in the first place.

In as few words as possible, "hostage situation." Does she go to Star Fleet, knowing that her husband to be will be the first neck on the block?


----------



## Morrus

Ryujin said:


> I think that there were significantly more than 7 pirates.



Were there?


----------



## The Myopic Sniper

I couldn't tell how many pirates there were supposed to be. A one-off line like "We are detecting hundreds of transporter signatures" when they beamed aboard would have easily covered it, but maybe the script called for a lot more pirates and the director decided they didn't want to hire that many extras. I would have preferred it were addressed more overtly, it did feel like it was just a small handful of fairly unimpressive attackers.


----------



## Morrus

Also would getting a major naval vessel taken over by pirates be the end of a captain’s career? If Somalian pirates somehow took over an aircraft carrier, I assume the captain of that ship would no longer be Captain, or even in the navy. It seems like negligence or incompetence at best.

What am I saying? Kirk stole a starship and it was fine!


----------



## Arilyn

In Star Trek, I think having your ship taken over is a right of passage.


----------



## Ryujin

Morrus said:


> Also would getting a major naval vessel taken over by pirates be the end of a captain’s career? If Somalian pirates somehow took over an aircraft carrier, I assume the captain of that ship would no longer be Captain, or even in the navy. It seems like negligence or incompetence at best.
> 
> What am I saying? Kirk stole a starship and it was fine!



Well he did get busted back from admiral to captain, but that was more of a reward.


----------



## Mallus

Arilyn said:


> In Star Trek, I think having your ship taken over is a right of passage.



You totally get razzed by your peers if you don’t engage your ship‘s auto-destruct at least once.

You know, this episode didn‘t feel like an adventure story or an action movie, which is kinda implicit in the premise “space pirates”. It felt like a screwball comedy. In space. With pirates. And a sassy, vamping villainess dressed like Irma Vep, who totally better be coming back. 

This is insanely likable stuff.


----------



## billd91

Ryujin said:


> Well he did get busted back from admiral to captain, but that was more of a reward.



From Kirk’s perspective. From Starfleet’s perspective, major penalty. Probably a big hit to his salary and retirement benefits too…


----------



## Ryujin

billd91 said:


> From Kirk’s perspective. From Starfleet’s perspective, major penalty. Probably a big hit to his salary and retirement benefits too…



Also seemingly from the perspective of the person who was busting him. As far as the rest goes it's a post scarcity society, so likely not much of a change except for perceived prestige.


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Morrus said:


> This one was OK. I think the weakest of the series so far, though I still enjoyed it. I felt like it could have been an amazing 'Die Hard on a Spaceship' and it kinda wasn't. Plus a couple of issues that bugged me -



Yeah, probably the weakest, but still really good.



Morrus said:


> 1) Where was the crew? This is a starship with hundreds of people aboard, including an entire society department. How did like 7 people take over the ship? Was there a note about everybody being on shore leave or something?



We don't see 90% of the crew most of the time either, so I assume that unseen pirates took care of the unseen crew.



Morrus said:


> 2) They're 2 days away from subspace comms (which is presumably faster than travel, or else you'd just fly there and tell them yourself) -- but the Vulcans arrive in literally a minute or so, JJ Abrams style.



I figured that a several days passed between calls. They skipped it because it's boring for us to watch them playing jenga. Ditto the time it took Pike to lead his mutiny. I don't think they expected us to believe that the whole thing took minutes. At the same time, they didn't want us to think about it too much.



Morrus said:


> 3) If the Vulcans can arrive in a minute, why not an entire Starfleet task force? Surely she'd have just called 999 and the episode would be over. The pirate pan only worked because comms were shut down, but the moment they communicated with T'Pring, that's gone. The message is out.



Sure, but if she showed up with the Federation, they'd kill Spock! It's standard hostage "No Cops!"



Morrus said:


> Also I made an adventure which actually was Die Hard on a Spaceship, and it's awesome, and I totally had the Enterprise in mind when I did it.



Sweeeeet.


----------



## Umbran

Ryujin said:


> Also seemingly from the perspective of the person who was busting him. As far as the rest goes it's a post scarcity society, so likely not much of a change except for perceived prestige.




He was freakin' James Tiberius Kirk.  He didn't need rank to have prestige at that point.


----------



## Umbran

Heh.

So, while I knew all this, I just looked at it differently.  

They go through a lot of plot to make it so Pike knows his ultimate fate.  He knows that he cannot die until after his accident, about 10 years in the future.

But, really, we know that most of the characters in the show appear in later canon, and so have just as much plot immunity as Pike.  Spock, Chapel, Mr. Kyle, Uhura, Dr M'Benga, T'Pring, and Sam Kirk all show up later on TOS.  

In a way, the whole "knowing the future" thing is a lampshade for the entire series.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Ryujin said:


> It's "The Trolley Problem" on steroids. Would you divert the trolley to run over one child, so that millions could live in luxury?



That is, I think, distinct from the trolley problem, rather than an exaggerated form of it, but that’s a small quibble.  

The idea that it’s even a moral quandary has always struck me as, if you’ll forgive a somewhat problematic term, completely insane.


----------



## Morrus

Also was it me or was the engineer AWOL again? He seems to vanish for entire episodes. Or did I just miss him?


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

The quick arrival of T'Pring was kinda surprising, but my guess is - the prison she's working on right now is near the same "edge" of Federation space? 
It kinda makes sense: 
T'Prin and Spock are trying to make a long-distance relationship work. That might include her taking commissions near wherever the Enterprise is expected to have missions, so they can meet occassionally.
A the same type, Sybok and Angel presumably lived together somewhere, and when he was apprehended, he might have been put in the nearest suitable facility - which might still be near the edge of the Federation (criminals trying to escape custory or probably often caught as they leave or enter Federation space, as operating within Federation space all the time is risky.)
At some point, Angel presumably learned about the Sybok-Spock-T'Pring angle and developed a plan that lead to her masquerading as a respected Federation aid worker to lure the Enterprise in a trap in her home turf.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Morrus said:


> Also was it me or was the engineer AWOL again? He seems to vanish for entire episodes. Or did I just miss him?



I kinda expected to see him in Engineering, being the one that took out the space pirates there. 
But I guess he wasn't so lucky, got captured and put in a cage conviently always off-camera.


----------



## Omand

Morrus said:


> Also was it me or was the engineer AWOL again? He seems to vanish for entire episodes. Or did I just miss him?



Nope, you did not miss him.  Hemmer did not show up in the episode.

A let down, to be sure, but understandable.  I heard a radio interview with the actor who plays Hemmer and it is something like a 4 hour make up job every time they have him on screen.  I am sure that has a cost both in budget and filming time so they likely reserve Hemmer for scenes where it is really important for him to be present.

Cheers


----------



## Ryujin

Omand said:


> Nope, you did not miss him.  Hemmer did not show up in the episode.
> 
> A let down, to be sure, but understandable.  I heard a radio interview with the actor who plays Hemmer and it is something like a 4 hour make up job every time they have him on screen.  I am sure that has a cost both in budget and filming time so they likely reserve Hemmer for scenes where it is really important for him to be present.
> 
> Cheers



I'm actually surprised that it's "only" a 4 hour job.


----------



## Stalker0

FitzTheRuke said:


> I figured that a several days passed between calls. They skipped it because it's boring for us to watch them playing jenga. Ditto the time it took Pike to lead his mutiny. I don't think they expected us to believe that the whole thing took minutes. At the same time, they didn't want us to think about it too much.



This was my assumption as well. A few days pass, Tpring gets there, the mutiny is set up. I agree that the show didn't do us any favors showing even a little passage of time, but there was also nothing in the show that rules out a few days passed either.


----------



## Stalker0

Omand said:


> I heard a radio interview with the actor who plays Hemmer and it is something like a 4 hour make up job every time they have him on screen.  I am sure that has a cost both in budget and filming time so they likely reserve Hemmer for scenes where it is really important for him to be present.



Eh, I mean we had worf in full makeup almost every single episode, there are many many sci-fi shows that have full make-up aliens as main characters.

I think the more reasonable explanation....Hemmer is just not an A list characters, he's a B lister like the transporter guy or Sam Kirk. Aka this isn't a Geordi or a Scotty. That does "weird" for us used to have the chief engineer (or just master chief in O'Brien's case) being front and center on the show, but its a reasonable direction to go.


----------



## Arilyn

I'd love to see more of Hemmer. Hope we get an episode focussed on him.


----------



## Maxperson

I went to the bookstore today and as I was looking through the sci-fi/fantasy section I noticed the Star Trek portion.  Then I thought to my myself, "I can't wait until the Star Trek Strange New Worlds books that are probably already in the works arrive."  I'd read those in a heartbeat.


----------



## Janx

How does a band of maybe 20 pirates take over a big ship with like 400 crew who were already on alert?

This is the largest most sparsely populated ship in starfleet.

Fun episode otherwise, but weird plot hole to have. Surely some other "we stashed the crew in the hold or mess halls" or something statement to cover everybody not on camera. Like Hemmer.


----------



## Janx

Also, this is yet another time modern ST writers have ignored travel times.  We're at the edge of Federation space, and poof, T'Pring just pops out of warp with a prisoner. Like Vulcan is conveniently close by.


----------



## Arilyn

Janx said:


> Also, this is yet another time modern ST writers have ignored travel times.  We're at the edge of Federation space, and poof, T'Pring just pops out of warp with a prisoner. Like Vulcan is conveniently close by.



To be fair, ships in Star Trek stories have always travelled at the speed of plot.


----------



## Stalker0

Janx said:


> How does a band of maybe 20 pirates take over a big ship with like 400 crew who were already on alert?



I just go with, "We didn't see most of the crew, and we didn't see most of the pirates".


----------



## Ryujin

Arilyn said:


> To be fair, ships in Star Trek stories have always travelled at the speed of plot.



And when you have less than an hour to play out a complete story, start to finish, you tend to gloss over things like, "We're traveling for 5 days to get where we're going and it's completely uneventful."


----------



## Umbran

Morrus said:


> Also was it me or was the engineer AWOL again? He seems to vanish for entire episodes. Or did I just miss him?




I don't expect they made him get into all those prosthetics when he wasn't going to play a notable role in the episode.


----------



## Umbran

Janx said:


> Also, this is yet another time modern ST writers have ignored travel times.  We're at the edge of Federation space, and poof, T'Pring just pops out of warp with a prisoner. Like Vulcan is conveniently close by.




Or. like time passed and nothing interesting happened in it, so they didn't focus on it.


----------



## Maxperson

Umbran said:


> Or. like time passed and nothing interesting happened in it, so they didn't focus on it.



Yeah, but it didn't feel like that.  And a lot of people aren't going to think of that possibility.  A short throw-away line from the sarcastic pirate leader like, "It's about time you got here.  I've been waiting for days.  Did you crawl here at warp one or something?" would have gone a long way there.


----------



## Morrus

Umbran said:


> I don't expect they made him get into all those prosthetics when he wasn't going to play a notable role in the episode.



They don't film the episodes one at a time though. They do it in blocks -- so he'd spend a day doing all his engineering scenes for the first half of the season, for example. And there would be a week just filming bridge scenes.


----------



## Morrus

Umbran said:


> Or. like time passed and nothing interesting happened in it, so they didn't focus on it.



It's not that they didn't focus on it. I'd prefer they'd just _mentioned_ it, since they took the time to make it clear they were 2 days out from even a message getting back.

I guess some things bother some folks more than others, but insta-travel (or the appearance of it) does break my immersion. I can't speak for anybody else.


----------



## Ryujin

Morrus said:


> They don't film the episodes one at a time though. They do it in blocks -- so he'd spend a day doing all his engineering scenes for the first half of the season, for example. And there would be a week just filming bridge scenes.



More like days, depending upon how many pages they shoot per day, but basically yes. And Star Trek franchises have typically done marathon session shoots.


----------



## Umbran

Morrus said:


> They don't film the episodes one at a time though. They do it in blocks -- so he'd spend a day doing all his engineering scenes for the first half of the season, for example. And there would be a week just filming bridge scenes.




You still need to prioritize the time. 

I mean, you're suggesting they use valuable shooting time including people in shots for the sake of showing them on screen, even if they have no actual involvement in the scenes in question.  Seems like just about the lowest priority available, to me.


----------



## Morrus

Umbran said:


> You still need to prioritize the time.
> 
> I mean, you're suggesting they use valuable shooting time including people in shots for the sake of showing them on screen, even if they have no actual involvement in the scenes in question.  Seems like just about the lowest priority available, to me.



No I'm not. Those are your words, not mine. 

I was indicating a preference that the character should be written into the show more. Whether there are logistical reasons why he's not, as some people have suggested, or there other reasons, is beyond our ability to know, although I noted that shooting in blocks  alleviates the one of the hypothesized obstacles brought up in the thread.


----------



## Benjamin Olson

Ondath said:


> Finally got around to watching Episode 7. It was a solid 7/10 to me, nothing groundbreaking like the earlier few episodes, but a fun romp with a villain who's just going *HAM*. I should catch up on the TOS lore on Sybok, but I'm kinda worried with the focus they're putting on the T'Pring-Spock relationship so far. Since this is a prequel, we know how things will ultimately end with Amok Time. So how much tension can they put in this story?



There is no TOS lore on Sybok. Sybok was created for _Star Trek V: The Final Frontier_ and has until now never featured anywhere else. Gene Roddenberry, who had no say in that production, called out that movie as having certain elements that were "apocryphal" to _his_ series. Many people assumed one of the things he was referencing was this Spock brother they had never heard of before. Whether or not that's true, the point is that Sybok was most definitely not present in TOS.

I'm glad, in principle, however, that they brought him back. Given how much time Discovery effectively spent on Spock's family life without addressing the Sybok (not) in the room a little explanation is in order, and as much as I want to forget Star Trek V, it did happen and it might as well be integrated into the franchise better. And I think the character has a lot of recurring villain potential when not shackled to such a crumby movie.

As for this episode it was overall my least favorite so far. I think my main issue was that Angel got a lot of screen time without really being compelling as a character until their turn to over-the-top cackling villain. After that the episode was a lot of fun.



Morrus said:


> I felt like it could have been an amazing 'Die Hard on a Spaceship' and it kinda wasn't.



I mean I feel like the Next Gen episode "Starship Mine" was already "Die Hard on a Spaceship", but I suppose they can afford to do the premise again every 30 years or so.


----------



## Morrus

Benjamin Olson said:


> I mean I feel like the Next Gen episode "Starship Mine" was already "Die Hard on a Spaceship", but I suppose they can afford to do the premise again every 30 years or so.



This show is awesome, but if you think it’s original, I don’t know how to have this conversation with you!


----------



## Benjamin Olson

Morrus said:


> This show is awesome, but if you think it’s original, I don’t know how to have this conversation with you!



I've never accused it of being original. I'm just saying if you want a "Die Hard on a Spaceship" scenario there's already plenty of readily available existing Star Trek episodes that do that to varying degrees, with "Starship Mine" where the protagonist is alone and the villains are actually terrorists being probably the closest parallel. I think it's a plot scenario that's better to save for late in a series when the locations being presented in a new tactical-action light are all very familiar in their normal functions.


----------



## Knightfall

I'm loving this show!


----------



## Morrus

Benjamin Olson said:


> I've never accused it of being original. I'm just saying if you want a "Die Hard on a Spaceship" scenario there's already plenty of readily available existing Star Trek episodes that do that to varying degrees, with "Starship Mine" where the protagonist is alone and the villains are actually terrorists being probably the closest parallel. I think it's a plot scenario that's better to save for late in a series when the locations being presented in a new tactical-action light are all very familiar in their normal functions.



Sure. I even wrote a Die Hard on a Spaceship adventure. I’m not sure how “they did this in TNG” means I can’t think it would have been awesome here. Also what _didn’t_ they do in TNG?


----------



## Ryujin

Morrus said:


> Sure. I even wrote a Die Hard on a Spaceship adventure. I’m not sure how “they did this in TNG” means I can’t think it would have been awesome here. Also what _didn’t_ they do in TNG?



That's probably the only concept that this GIF doesn't cover.


----------



## Mort

Ryujin said:


> That's probably the only concept that this GIF doesn't cover.




Not exactly, but they came pretty close in Deep Space Homer


----------



## Hex08

Morrus said:


> Also was it me or was the engineer AWOL again? He seems to vanish for entire episodes. Or did I just miss him?



This has been a huge surprise for me about the show. Hemmer really only appeared in two episodes I think, maybe three. On the upside, Hemmer is one of the few characters I don't care for (the other is Ortegas) so him being AWOL most of the time is fine with me.


----------



## Hex08

Umbran said:


> I don't expect they made him get into all those prosthetics when he wasn't going to play a notable role in the episode.



I don't know, tons of other actors did it in earlier series.


----------



## Morrus

So we have an answer to the engineer’s absence!

He wasn’t cast until partway through the filming of s1, so is absent from entire filming blocks (some of the ones he was in were filmed late but appeared in in early episodes). But no, it’s nothing do with his makeup taking too long.


----------



## Umbran

Morrus said:


> But no, it’s nothing do with his makeup taking too long.




Very well.  Excuse me for having been wrong.


----------



## Vael

Another delightful episode.


----------



## Stalker0

1x08
A fun episode, though I found it a bit "hallow" at the end.

Normally you see these kinds of episodes in like season 4-5 of a show, the show has kind of run out of ideas, you want to shake things up, give the actors a fun challenge to try something else, etc. You rarely find such an episode right in the augural season.

If I didn't know better, I would honestly say that people hated the dr's kid plotline so much that they decided to sweep it under the carpet, but I'm assuming they film a number of these ahead of time (although maybe this one was filmed late enough that they had time to react to audience's feedback after the first several and decided to pivot). At the end of the day, while its a happy ending, its just an incredibly convenient one. Crew finds alien that just happens to be able to connect and cure with the daughter, right when she needs it, and is super helpful. Again, it just felt like someone wanted to move on from that plotline and give it no more thought.

Also the Dr's choice at the end was fairly hallow. At first it seems like a real choice (the crew or your daughter....which has already kind of been a theme for Mbanga a few times). But then they throw a softball, 'oh your daughter can just stay here'. I mean of course he's going to let her stay, what father would doom his daughter to a quick death compared to the chance at eternal life. The kid even comes back just in case there is any concern the dr messed up, "Dad you made the right choice". I guess they were just going for a fairy tail ending, the dr has a relatively easy choice, of course makes the "right one" and everyone lives happily ever after.

All of that said, L'ann sold this one for me, that acting, that dress, man I was laughing up a storm!


----------



## Rabulias

Anson Mount (the actor) also seemed to have a good time hamming it up, as well as Hemmer (the character) getting into his role with "Science!"  I wonder when this episode was filmed in the production order, as Hemmer seems less cantankerous, and I would think the situation would bring out more of that.

And I would never have expected to see a M'benga/Hemmer teamup, but it worked out well.


----------



## embee

I wasn't all that fond of ST: Disco. Mainly because I found the second season storyline to be absurd.

SNW, on the other hand, well I'm all about this show. The blend of humor, wide-eyed adventure, and optimism is refreshing. As is the return to an episodic format. Also, I'm all in for Captain Pike dad-joking a bad pirate impression while the bridge crew rolls their eyes (while stifling a laugh).

Also, if it hasn't been said, the Enterprise being like 95% TOS Enterprise design and 5% Abrams Enterprise design hits the sweet spot.

Chef's kiss to this show.


----------



## embee

Morrus said:


> Also would getting a major naval vessel taken over by pirates be the end of a captain’s career? If Somalian pirates somehow took over an aircraft carrier, I assume the captain of that ship would no longer be Captain, or even in the navy. It seems like negligence or incompetence at best.
> 
> What am I saying? Kirk stole a starship and it was fine!



It's not a naval vessel. Starfleet is not a military organization.


----------



## Mort

embee said:


> It's not a naval vessel. Starfleet is not a military organization.




Isn't it a blend of an exploratory/military force?

Has there ever been even mention of an actual military other than star fleet?

And when there is a war on - Starfleet is the one fighting it (as shown in multiple shows and wars).


----------



## Morrus

Hmmm. That’s not the sort of Trek episode I’m fond of. But I guess it is traditional Trek.


----------



## Morrus

Mort said:


> Isn't it a blend of an exploratory/military force?
> 
> Has there ever been even mention of an actual military other than star fleet?
> 
> And when there is a war on - Starfleet is the one fighting it (as shown in multiple shows and wars).



Not only is it clearly _a_ navy, it is — despite their claims otherwise— very specifically clearly the _US_ Navy in the future. At least, it’s modelled exactly on it. They didn’t even bother to pick a prefix other than “USS”! From the ranks to the traditions… they even have court martials. 

They like to say it isn’t. But if it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it’s a duck. Even if it keeps telling you it’s a tree.


----------



## J.Quondam

Evolution of the Enterprise  | Trek Mate
		



Spoiler


----------



## Stalker0

Morrus said:


> They like to say it isn’t. But if it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it’s a duck. Even if it keeps telling you it’s a tree.



Yep, have to agree. Now I can respect there are certain things different between Starfleet and a real military, but the backbone of starfleet is clearly military....you have full naval hierarchy to start with for one, and they even have a "brig" for naval discipline.


----------



## Ryujin

It would probably be more accurate to say that Star Fleet is _more_ than just a military organization. It's a paramilitary organization that stands in for a navy, police, does research, and occasionally moves emergency cargo like medical supplies and equipment.


----------



## Thomas Shey

embee said:


> It's not a naval vessel. Starfleet is not a military organization.




Though that's a harder sell during the TOS and before period than it is in the TNG period.


----------



## embee

Thomas Shey said:


> Though that's a harder sell during the TOS and before period than it is in the TNG period.



There is plenty of in-universe and behind-the-scenes evidence that Starfleet is NOT military. 

Stack Exchange offers an excellent answer to this question.









						Is Starfleet a military or civilian organization?
					

If they are civilian in the common sense, why then do they wear military style uniforms, have a military hierarchical command and military rank structures; have a Starfleet Command and a Starfleet




					scifi.stackexchange.com


----------



## Morrus

embee said:


> There is plenty of in-universe and behind-the-scenes evidence that Starfleet is NOT military.
> 
> Stack Exchange offers an excellent answer to this question.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is Starfleet a military or civilian organization?
> 
> 
> If they are civilian in the common sense, why then do they wear military style uniforms, have a military hierarchical command and military rank structures; have a Starfleet Command and a Starfleet
> 
> 
> 
> 
> scifi.stackexchange.com



They doth protest too much.


----------



## Hex08

Morrus said:


> Not only is it clearly _a_ navy, it is — despite their claims otherwise— very specifically clearly the _US_ Navy in the future. At least, it’s modelled exactly on it. They didn’t even bother to pick a prefix other than “USS”! From the ranks to the traditions… they even have court martials.
> 
> They like to say it isn’t. But if it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it’s a duck. Even if it keeps telling you it’s a tree.



It's pretty obvious you're right. It may not be a strictly military organization since it's primary goal is exploration but it certainly does fulfil the role of a military when needed, which seems to be often. If it didn't then the Federation would have been steamrolled long ago by aggressive neighbors.


----------



## J.Quondam

_"We're not a military organization"_ is exactly the sort of propaganda a domineering but more or less benevolent military organization would use to cloak its true role in society.


----------



## Hex08

I really enjoyed episode 8. Anson Mount was hysterical, I was literally in tears from laughter because of him a few times. Christina Chong was almost as good. I didn't see the ending coming, I really thought M'Benga's daughters' story would culminate in him finding a cure after a long search or, less likely, him failing and her dying. I wasn't a fan of the idea off her being kept in the transporter so an end to her story was welcome. Also, it was nice to see Hemmer again, he is slowly starting to grow on me.

I've been kind of ambivalent about M'Benga and this episode doesn't help. I sometimes find it difficult to understand him when he talks. He sometimes does the same "whisper voice" that Burnam did a lot in Discovery and it makes it difficult for me to catch everything he is saying. That "whisper voice" is an acting affectation that has always driven me nuts, you don't have to project like you are in a stage play but at least speak clearly when acting.


----------



## embee

The police have ranks and uniforms but are not military (their armament aside). They are a civilian force. The purpose of the military is to make war, not to explore. 

If Starfleet was military, then the open would have far more Terran tone to it.



> _*Space, the final conquest. These are the voyages of the Starship Enterprise. Its continuing mission: to discover and subjugate strange new worlds; to advance our dominion and vanquish all who stand against us; to conquer the Galaxy for the glory of the Empire.*_




- From Star Trek Continues (which I freely admit is not canon)


----------



## Morrus

embee said:


> The police have ranks and uniforms but are not military (their armament aside). They are a civilian force. The purpose of the military is to make war, not to explore.



No matter how many times you (or characters on the show) repeat it, I ain't gonna believe it. Ducks, etc.


----------



## Hex08

embee said:


> The police have ranks and uniforms but are not military (their armament aside). They are a civilian force. The purpose of the military is to make war, not to explore.
> 
> If Starfleet was military, then the open would have far more Terran tone to it.
> 
> 
> 
> - From Star Trek Continues (which I freely admit is not canon)



Ok, then if Starfleet isn't the military then what is? So far all conflicts that we have seen have been with Starfleet acting as the Federation's military and not some other force. Starfleet may well be primarily an exploratory force but it also obviously fulfils the role of the military as well.

There is nothing that prevents Starfleet from fulfilling multiple functions. We have seen it function as an exploratory force, a diplomatic corps and a military force.


----------



## Ryujin

embee said:


> The police have ranks and uniforms but are not military (their armament aside). They are a civilian force. The purpose of the military is to make war, not to explore.
> 
> If Starfleet was military, then the open would have far more Terran tone to it.
> 
> 
> 
> - From Star Trek Continues (which I freely admit is not canon)



That's why I used the term _PARA_military organization. Police, for example, are a paramilitary organization. They use the ranks, symbolism, etc. of a military organization, but have a civilian function.


----------



## Thomas Shey

embee said:


> There is plenty of in-universe and behind-the-scenes evidence that Starfleet is NOT military.




Except, as I reference, in TOS they pretty much act like military with extra diplomatic and exploratory purposes pretty regularly.

Like I said, I might be able to buy that's not how the see themselves by the TNG era, but not during TOS.  Among other things, they spend a bit too much time on wargames and the like (the whole plotline in The Ultimate Computer was testing the M5's ability to handle that at need).


----------



## Thomas Shey

Ryujin said:


> That's why I used the term _PARA_military organization. Police, for example, are a paramilitary organization. They use the ranks, symbolism, etc. of a military organization, but have a civilian function.




I'll also note that police don't do court martials, we  we absolutely know Starfleet does.  Most of the plot of "The Menagerie" is framed around Spock being up for just that.


----------



## Ryujin

Thomas Shey said:


> I'll also note that police don't do court martials, we  we absolutely know Starfleet does.  Most of the plot of "The Menagerie" is framed around Spock being up for just that.



No, they don't. They do things like internal trials for breaches of the Police Services Act (name specific to Canada). A rose by any other name smells like compost.


----------



## Benjamin Olson

It seems a bit early for a "whole cast plays different characters in silly costumes" episode. But I suppose in this age of short seasons things move a little faster in some ways. I'd hardly call it a good episode, but it was a lot of fun, a classic Trek scenario, and gave actors opportunites to play radically different roles.



Spoiler



I did not expect the silly-costume comedy episode to be the resolution of the daughter in the transporter plot. I might feel shortchanged if I liked the daughter in the transporter plot, but I'm glad to see the show free of it.


----------



## Thomas Shey

Ryujin said:


> No, they don't. They do things like internal trials for breaches of the Police Services Act (name specific to Canada). A rose by any other name smells like compost.




At least in the U.S.--and TOS was very U.S. centric in its basic assumptions--they still have to be tried by a civilian court after that;  all inquests do is decide, at best, if you can get kicked off the force.  That pretty clearly wasn't the case there.  

Basically, at some point them "not being military" is just an informed trait; it doesn't seem to match their organization, equipment, or methodology under threat in any meaningful way.  Its not like some of what they do that isn't strictly military hasn't frequently been one of the military's side jobs, too (diplomatic escort and contact for example).  The exploration end hasn't been a thing in the real world for some centuries now, but even when it was, the people doing it might as well have been private military contractors for all intents and purposes (and in few cases, absolutely were).  So we're left with the science end being unprecedented for a military, and that's just not enough for me to buy that's not, in practice, what they are.  In the TOS era, they weren't even that much slow off the trigger than militaries with strong rules of engagement.


----------



## Mort

Thomas Shey said:


> At least in the U.S.--and TOS was very U.S. centric in its basic assumptions--they still have to be tried by a civilian court after that;  all inquests do is decide, at best, if you can get kicked off the force.  That pretty clearly wasn't the case there.
> 
> Basically, at some point them "not being military" is just an informed trait; it doesn't seem to match their organization, equipment, or methodology under threat in any meaningful way.  Its not like some of what they do that isn't strictly military hasn't frequently been one of the military's side jobs, too (diplomatic escort and contact for example).  The exploration end hasn't been a thing in the real world for some centuries now, but even when it was, the people doing it might as well have been private military contractors for all intents and purposes (and in few cases, absolutely were).  So we're left with the science end being unprecedented for a military, and that's just not enough for me to buy that's not, in practice, what they are.  In the TOS era, they weren't even that much slow off the trigger than militaries with strong rules of engagement.




Right, Exploration/science along with military expansion WAS what made the British empire what it was - expressly that formula of science and military going hand in hand.

When the Earth starts exploring other planets - it makes perfect sense it would lead with that wildly successful model.

And it certainly looks like that's what starfleet is.


----------



## doctorbadwolf

Mort said:


> Right, Exploration/science along with military expansion WAS what made the British empire what it was - expressly that formula of science and military going hand in hand.
> 
> When the Earth starts exploring other planets - it makes perfect sense it would lead with that wildly successful model.
> 
> And it certainly looks like that's what starfleet is.



Well yeah, you gonna send a bunch of nerds _without_ guns into the wilds to find new species’ of newt?


----------



## Ondath

Well, episode 8!

I was ready to file this under "no brainer fun" but then they pulled that last minute story progression. In terms of the crew acting in different roles, I guess it's comparable to The Naked Now, which was the *third episode* of the TNG and was really awful because it tried to show how the characters acted in a different situation when we didn't know the characters yet. I think we had a good grasp of the characters to enjoy their new roles, and Pike and La'an in particular were hilarious!

I did not expect Rukiyah's storyline to end so quickly, but on the other hand I think it felt right emotionally.

Overall, I liked the episode but it does feel a bit weaker compared to the strong start we had.


----------



## bloodtide

S1E8

Wow...a holodeck episode?!?

Dr.M'Benga reads his daughter a book?  I book?  You'd think he would have something more like an E-book.  

And it's sad that M'Benga COULD have been reading an African (or really anything other then a Western Europien ) story book.  We could have had a more cultured holodeck adventure, not just bad Game of Thrones.

M'Benga is a bad father.  His daughter is dying of whatsomemacallit.  So he hides her in a transporter, works full time as a ships doctor, and every so often works on her illness.  You know a good dad might put her in a hospital and have lots of other doctors help and maybe work on a cure full time.

Guess the daughter does not know about Choose your own Adventure books?  Or Fan Fiction?  Or really just fiction in general?

And sure the writers don't care about continuity....but did not Una and Laan MURDER M'benga's daughter when they used the SICKBAY TRANSPORTER to play Bingo.....

 Oh look M'Benga goes to work on a cure...but gets interrupted by his job 

The Use the Enterprise sets....but fill them with Medieval Junk...REALLY looks cheap

Sure is nice all the brainwashed crew members fight in below Rated G level, so they...you know.....knock down bad guys with a sword.

Choose Crew or Daughter?!?  And Bad Dad M picks the crew?


And bad dad M just abandons his daughter in the nebula?


The whole sick daughter sub plot really just fizzles out...oh, she is sick...and poof she is cured and living in the nebula.

This might be the worst bottle epsiode of all time....and the shows has MILLIONS and Millions of dollars.


----------



## Mort

Easter egg re: the author of the children's book read by M'Benga.


----------



## Benjamin Olson

Ondath said:


> I think we had a good grasp of the characters to enjoy their new roles, and Pike and La'an in particular were hilarious!



I mostly agree, and I think it was wise of them to make two of our least developed characters, M'Benga and Hemmer, the ones who got to keep their existing personalities. My one objection is that I think this episode probably had the majority of Ortegas' lines so far in the show. I wish they would have given her at least a featured B plot or something before turning her into Sir Adya.

Still miles better placement in running order than the "The Naked Now".


----------



## Umbran

Morrus said:


> They doth protest too much.




That goes both ways.


----------



## Umbran

Mort said:


> Easter egg re: the author of the children's book read by M'Benga.




That is one nice Easter egg reference.


----------



## Umbran

bloodtide said:


> This might be the worst bottle epsiode of all time....




S'okay.  This might be the worst media review piece of all time, too.  A match made in Sto'Vo'Qor!


----------



## Arilyn

I really liked this episode. Anson Mount does an awesome job playing the snivelling courtier and it is great seeing Hemmer again. Science! My only quibble is the bittersweet ending gets watered down by the swift return of M'Benga's daughter. I get why they did it but it weakened the emotional impact of the scene.


----------



## Umbran

Arilyn said:


> I get why they did it but it weakened the emotional impact of the scene.




I don't know that everything ought to be played for maximum emotional impact.  Because, honestly, maximum impact then calls for Doctor M'Benga to be mourning and worrying that he made the wrong choice for a long time.  This way, he gets a bittersweet mourning of separatioin, but understanding that he made a good choice, and that his daughter is happy.

The episode is the _absolute worst_ use of the Boltzmann Brain concept, but fine, I'll let it go.



Spoiler: For those who care...



Back in 1896 (so, before Einstein and Relativity) there was a big problem in the field of Cosmology.  Basically - how come we see an ordered universe?  Thermodymanics told them that he universe should tend towards a disordered state.  So, why wasn't it in such a state?

Ludwig Boltzmann suggested that maybe the universe we see is the result of a random fluctuation - that a disordered universe could just... fall into an ordered state.  With enough time, all low-probability events become possible, and all, wo why not?

The Boltzmann brain is not a real posited possibility.  It is a _reductio ad absurdum_ argument against Boltzmann's idea.  The ordered universe contains brains and such, right?  So, what's more likely - that an _entire universe_ fell into that ordered state that contains many brains, or it spontaneously manifested _just one brain_, (presumably Boltzmann's) complete with sense memories that it existed in this universe?

This became a measuring stick for cosmological theories - if your cosmological model is less likely than your own brain just manifested itself randomly, your model is probably not correct.[/color]


----------



## Stalker0

Umbran said:


> The episode is the _absolute worst_ use of the Boltzmann Brain concept, but fine, I'll let it go.



To be fair, they barely touch on it. Hemmer was like "hmmm could be a Boltzmann brain", and they never really talk about it again. Aka they never really explain teh creature, it just happens, and we move on.


----------



## Maxperson

embee said:


> The police have ranks and uniforms but are not military (their armament aside). They are a civilian force. *The purpose of the military is to make war*, not to explore.



An organization can have more than one purpose.  Which other organization fought the Romulans when Earth and  the Romulans went to war?  And when the Federation and Klingons went to war?  And when the Federation and Cardassians went to war? And the Dominion?  And the Borg?

Starfleet makes war.


----------



## Mort

embee said:


> The police have ranks and uniforms but are not military (their armament aside). They are a civilian force. The purpose of the military is to make war, not to explore.
> 
> If Starfleet was military, then the open would have far more Terran tone to it.
> 
> 
> 
> - From Star Trek Continues (which I freely admit is not canon)




And yet, Starfleet goes to war ALL the time.

One of the running themes seems to be that protest as they do, Starfleet and the Terran empire aren't as different as all that:



Spoiler



Lorca did just fine on Starfleet, so does the emperor



It's one reason I hate the section 31 story lines. As much as they're technically portrayed as villains the writers can't seem to help themselves also portray them as a NECESSARY evil. and once you do that, all the talk of the federation being a peaceful society that had mostly risen above such things - goes out the window (they just hide it better than most).


----------



## Ryujin

Mort said:


> And yet, Starfleet goes to war ALL the time.
> 
> One of the running themes seems to be that protest as they do, Starfleet and then Terran empire aren't as different as all that:
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Lorca did just fine on Starfleet, so does the emperor
> 
> 
> 
> It's one reason I hate the section 31 story lines. As much as they're technically portrayed as villains the writers can't seem to help themselves also portray them as a NECESSARY evil. and once you do that, all the talk of the federation being a peaceful society that had mostly risen above such things - goes out the window (they just hide it better than most).



Definitely not a Section 31 fan.


----------



## Stalker0

Mort said:


> It's one reason I hate the section 31 story lines. As much as they're technically portrayed as villains the writers can't seem to help themselves also portray them as a NECESSARY evil. and once you do that, all the talk of the federation being a peaceful society that had mostly risen above such things - goes out the window (they just hide it better than most).



I think the issue with that though is the notion that being good requires absolute perfect good, that the slightest touch of evil means your just evil.

If the standard sci fi government is doing unscrupulous things 10% of the time, and you do them only .5%....well I think its fair to say your a lot more "good" than the standard. Could you do better, sure of course, always room to improve....but doesn't mean your wrong to say you have risen above such actions most of the time.


----------



## bloodtide

Mort said:


> It's one reason I hate the section 31 story lines. As much as they're technically portrayed as villains the writers can't seem to help themselves also portray them as a NECESSARY evil. and once you do that, all the talk of the federation being a peaceful society that had mostly risen above such things - goes out the window (they just hide it better than most).



I too hate Section 31 as most writers don't understand the concept.  Like Discovery just made them dumb villains.

The twist is, the Federation exists because of it's dark side.  A couple of handfulls of people "do the dark deeds", so the whole Federation can honeslty claim to be good.  

And, after all, when you take the "good" Main Characters from a Star Trek show.....you will notice a TON of evil deeds.


----------



## Mort

bloodtide said:


> I too hate Section 31 as most writers don't understand the concept.  Like Discovery just made them dumb villains.
> 
> The twist is, the Federation exists because of it's dark side.  A couple of handfulls of people "do the dark deeds", so the whole Federation can honeslty claim to be good.
> 
> And, after all, when you take the "good" Main Characters from a Star Trek show.....you will notice a TON of evil deeds.




Well, yes, section 31 are essentially the sin eaters of the federation.

But, my point is, however it got there, the Federation shouldn't *need* a dark side anymore. It IS a radical concept, but the point is to have a society that really has risen above it. Not one that never makes mistakes etc. and sure there can be bad apples, but that has, as a whole, ascended - to a degree.

Section 31 makes a complete mockery of that by making the whole "we've gone beyond what we were..." an absolute lie.


----------



## Hex08

Mort said:


> It's one reason I hate the section 31 story lines. As much as they're technically portrayed as villains the writers can't seem to help themselves also portray them as a NECESSARY evil. and once you do that, all the talk of the federation being a peaceful society that had mostly risen above such things - goes out the window (they just hide it better than most).



This has been my argument against Section 31 since the beginning. No matter how "realistic" some may think it is for the organization to exist it really does fly in the face of everything we are supposed to believe about the Federation.


----------



## Umbran

bloodtide said:


> The twist is, the Federation exists because of it's dark side.  A couple of handfulls of people "do the dark deeds", so the whole Federation can honeslty claim to be good.




Yeah, except, the idea that this _must_ be done runs against Roddenberry's optimistic vision.  Section 31 can go soak its collective head.


----------



## Benjamin Olson

To me the problem with Section 31, as a plot element, is that espionage plots in imagined universes are just intrinsically both a little lame and a minor violation of trust between author and audience.

A lot of what makes espionage plots set in the real world compelling is that they play a game of recontextualizing our understanding of the world, and revealing a secret reality behind our actual reality and our assumptions about it. Espionage in an imagined universe is revealing the truth behind the lies _the author_ told us and the assumptions _they put in our head_, which makes the reveals feel a lot cheaper and unearned. 

I won't try to tell people who say their dislike of Section 31 is because it betrays the optimism of the Federation or whatever that they are wrong, but I will put it to them that they might also partly just be put-off by the more basic aspect that "what we told you was one thing was all secretly something else" narratives in fictional universes intrinsically wear on the trust between author and audience. The fact that in something like Star Trek there is a panoply of authors means that issues of violating another author's vision also arise.

Which is not to say espionage plots in an imagined universe can't be awesome, but just to say that they are not as intrinsically interesting as spy fiction set in some approximation of the real world, and can infringe on the trust that our authors are playing straight with us. The authors of Section 31 episodes I've seen don't seem to realize this. Nor, I think, does whoever thinks that a Section 31 show is a good idea (much less a good idea in a world that still hasn't given me my damned Captain Worf show!)


----------



## Ondath

Benjamin Olson said:


> I won't try to tell people who say their dislike of Section 31 is because it betrays the optimism of the Federation or whatever that they are wrong, but I will put it to them that they might also partly just be put-off by the more basic aspect that "what we told you was one thing was all secretly something else" narratives in fictional universes intrinsically wear on the trust between author and audience. The fact that in something like Star Trek there is a panoply of authors means that issues of violating another author's vision also arise.



I don't think it's about Section 31 stories betraying the trust we placed on the authors about _the plot_ (i.e., the story that's being told), it's more that they betray the trust we placed on _the main premise_. The whole point of Star Trek (not its storyline, but the whole high concept behind it) is that it imagines a universe where humanity has finally dealt with some of its species-wide immaturities and _got better_. In the 60s, this led to imagining a black woman taking an officer role in the flagship of the Starfleet. In TNG, this took the shape of living in a post-scarcity society. From what I understand (still haven't gotten around to watching it), DS9 puts these ideals to the test by placing them in an environment where upholding them won't be easy, but it still respects the idea that humanity has gone beyond these tendencies to scheme and act selfishly to the best of its ability.

Section 31, on the other hand, argues that this high concept wasn't true at all. Humanity never got beyond these tendencies, it just hid them better. The problem isn't that such a scenario isn't more plausible in the show's setting, it's that it completely defeats the purpose of why we're listening to these stories in the first place.

So yeah, seconding @Umbran to say that Section 31 can go soak its collective head.


----------



## Ryujin

Whether you think that the concept of Section 31 betrays the trust between author and audience, or betrays the concept of The Federation, is largely just a semantic difference of opinion. In both cases the concept that the universe is based upon is violated.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

How to do espionage stories _without_ betraying high moral principles is a challenge for writers.

Not avoiding challenging situations is an example of a high moral principle.


----------



## Ondath

Paul Farquhar said:


> How to do espionage stories _without_ betraying high moral principles is a challenge for writers.
> 
> Not avoiding challenging situations is an example of a high moral principle.



Absolutely, though from what I understand Section 31's main issue is completely abandoning high moral principles in order to do espionage stories. But telling an espionage story in order to see how the high moral principles survive challenging situations is completely fine (and isn't that also the premise of DS9?).


----------



## Ryujin

Ondath said:


> Absolutely, though from what I understand Section 31's main issue is completely abandoning high moral principles in order to do espionage stories. But telling an espionage story in order to see how the high moral principles survive challenging situations is completely fine (and isn't that also the premise of DS9?).



One of DS9's greatest stories, was about precisely that: Does Cicso abandon his morals for a single act, in defence of the Federation? "It's a faaaaaaake!" It showed the slippery slope of one compromise after another, to get where he ultimately did. OTOH Section 31 stories seem to be largely about horrible people, doing terrible things, in a virtual Utopia.


----------



## Stalker0

Ryujin said:


> One of DS9's greatest stories, was about precisely that: Does Cicso abandon his morals for a single act, in defence of the Federation? "It's a faaaaaaake!" It showed the slippery slope of one compromise after another, to get where he ultimately did. OTOH Section 31 stories seem to be largely about horrible people, doing terrible things, in a virtual Utopia.



Agreed, in comparison Section 31 stories seem quaint. There are enough high stakes scenarios that can test morales to make interesting stories, you don't have to start with the fundamental "we just do whatever we need to to get the job done"


----------



## Ryujin

Stalker0 said:


> Agreed, in comparison Section 31 stories seem quaint. There are enough high stakes scenarios that can test morales to make interesting stories, you don't have to start with the fundamental "we just do whatever we need to to get the job done"



Back in Roddenberry's day, Cisco's story would have never been permitted. While I mostly like the playbook that he wrote, it shouldn't have been an absolute straight jacket.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Morrus said:


> No matter how many times you (or characters on the show) repeat it, I ain't gonna believe it. Ducks, etc.



I am torn on this issue, but I think, primarily Starfleet is Starfleet.
If it wants to, it's an exploration operation that does things purely for scientific purposes even if no sane military in the world would ever do it, or do it like that.
If it wants to, it's a military organization that will blow your naughty word up if you don't sign that good damn peace treaty already.


----------



## Ondath

Ryujin said:


> Back in Roddenberry's day, Cisco's story would have never been permitted. While I mostly like the playbook that he wrote, it shouldn't have been an absolute straight jacket.



Absolutely. I remember reading about the writers of TNG having difficulty in earlier seasons because Roddenberry's vision simply disallowed any kind of tension in the crew, and that they were much more comfortable when that requirement was loosened. I kind of agree with the larger idea there (supposedly professional people holding the idiot ball and getting into conflicts with teammates just to move the plot is excruciatingly dumb), but if you say "The Enterprise's crew must be in perfect harmony all the time", that's a straightjacket. Luckily SNW seems to be doing a healthy mix of this as well, with some tension appearing every now and then like Hemmer being an a-hole in the earlier episodes, M'Benga and Una having secrets etc., but that once the problems become apparent people actually resolve them in a cool-headed manner. Just in the last episode, it was really refreshing when M'Benga immediately checked for the obvious thing ("Am I hallucinating due to the gas?") instead of going on a wild goose chase for half of the episode.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Benjamin Olson said:


> To me the problem with Section 31, as a plot element, is that espionage plots in imagined universes are just intrinsically both a little lame and a minor violation of trust between author and audience.
> 
> A lot of what makes espionage plots set in the real world compelling is that they play a game of recontextualizing our understanding of the world, and revealing a secret reality behind our actual reality and our assumptions about it. Espionage in an imagined universe is revealing the truth behind the lies _the author_ told us and the assumptions _they put in our head_, which makes the reveals feel a lot cheaper and unearned.



Heck, that is a very good description of what I feel, said much better than I ever managed to express it myself.
I like to discuss on r/DaystromInstitute, and there are always people that try to spin some Section 31 or other clandestine stuff that basically says: "Hey, what you did see on screen was not true, it meant something else". 
Like "Oh no, but in truth the Tal'Shiar figured out that Obsidian Stick made by Garak was a fake, they just went along with it because they wanted a war, too". No, frack it, that entirely violates the spirit of the entire episode! Suddenly Sisko is off the hook, the Romulans wanted a war anyway. Frack that. If Section 31 needed a fake proof that the Dominion was attacking htem, they wouldn't have to wait for Sisko and Garak! 

---

Other than that, i really enjoyed that episode. Though I didn't expect the story of the daughter to end so quickly. On the other hand, it also seemed tricky to keep it going for so long, and it seems like something too easy to string us along with potential cures that turn out to be nothing, while damaging M'Benga's integrity as a character - because he is lying to his crew and Captain about it. ANd maybe the ending really has to be bittersweat, so that M'Benga can make penance for his lies, while also getting the victory he deserves, because he loves his child so much that he would go that far.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg

SNARFZODIACKILLER EPISODE 7 REVIEW

LIKE A GOOD STAR TREK EPISODE, SZK IS GOING BACK IN TIME WITH THE REVIEWS. BUT MORE BECAUSE THE REVIEWER WAS TRAPPED ON AN ALL-METAL CRUISE WITH A DRINK PLAN, AND NOT CHOOSING TO LET THE HOTTIES DIE BECAUSE OF HITLER. PINA COLADAS AND SLAYER MAKES SZK FORGET HARLAN ELLISON FRIDGED JOAN COLLINS.

AND THIS SHOW JUST KEEPS ON WITH THE SIZZLE AND THE STEAK. HENRY MILLER? HES LIKE THE OG OF METAL WRITERS. UNPACK ALL OF THAT ORNATE LANGUAGE AND MILLER IS STRAIGHT UP DISHING WARRANTS CHERRY PIE VIDEO BUT WITH LESS NUANCE. AND THAT IS THIS EPISODE IN A NUTSHELL.

BORDERS OF FEDERATION SPACE? YES!

SPACE PIRATES? YOU BET!

PIKE GOING ALL AWESOME AS HE IS ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED TO DO? HE GOES 100 LIKE HIS GRAVITY-DEFYING HAIR DEMANDS.

THE CAPTAIN AS THE LAST BOY SCOUT? POUR ONE OUT FOR BRUCE WILLIS ACTING CAREER.

FLAGSHIP OF FEDERATION CAPTURED BY A BUNCH OF YAHOOS FOR REASONS THAT BARELY ESCAPE THE GRAVITY WELL OF THE BLACK HOLE IMPLAUSIBILITY? HONESTLY DIDNT NOTICE.

ABSENCE OF MOST ROCKING BLIND-WARRIOR MONK ENGINEER EVER? #FREEHEMMER.

TELEPORTER ACTION WITHOUT CHIEF KYLE GETTING EVEN A LIMITED AMOUT OF SCREEN TIME? HOW CAN THEY OPERATE THAT WITHOUT HIS SKILLFUL PUSHING UP OF TELEPORTER LEVERS????? KYLE IS THE FLEA OF THE TELEPORTER AND TOTALLY OWNZ THE SLAP TECHNIQUE.

INTRODUCTION OF ANOTHER #SPOCKSIBLING? U BET! WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW, CANONLOVERS AND HATERZ OF ODD FILMS?

CREATION OF AN AWESOME RECURRING VILLAIN WHO IS SO METAL I SALUTE HER? SEVALAN IS BACK IN BLACK AND HAS CROSSED UNIVERSES!!!!!! #SYBOKISACTUALLYAVON?

ALSO MAYBE NOT HAVE EVERY INTRODUCED LADY FRIEND TURN OUT TO BE EVIL? TWO EPISODES IS A TREND, THREE EPISODES WOULD BE A REAL HOMAGE TO TOS.

BUT PUT ALL THAT NONSENSE ASIDE. BECAUSE THAT IS NOT EVEN A B PLOT. NOT EVEN A C PLOT. NOT EVEN A D PLOT.

ALL UR PLOTZ ARE BELONG TO SPOCK-LOVIN. WHEN IT COMES TO HOT SPOCK ROMANCE, WE KNOW HOW IT ENDS UP (KIRK/SPOCK 4 LYFE) BUT THIS IS ABOUT YOUNG FRISKY TROPIC OF CANCER SPOCK. SPOCK IS LL COOL S - LADIES LOVE COOL SPOCK.

SPOCK IS THE COOL CAT. I MEAN ... REALLY SPOCK IS A CAT. EVERYONE HAS THE HOTZ FOR SPOCK BECAUSE HE IS EMOTIONALLY UNAVAILABLE LIKE UR CAT. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS THAT SPOCK IS NOT WAITING FOR YOU TO DIE SO THAT HE CAN EAT YOU. PROBABLY. I DONT KNOW ALL THE FREAKY DEAKY VULCAN LOVING RITUALS. MAYBE THEY DO EAT THEIR LOVERS AFTER SEXY TIME. #PON-NOMNOMNOM

WHO GETS THE SPOCK? THATS THE QUESTION. COUNSELOR SERVALAN?  PIKE? T'HOTTIE? #FREEHEMMER? NURSE THIRD WHEEL ATE MY DINGO? EVIL SPOCK WITH GOATEE?

THIS EPISODE WAS ALL ABOUT THE FEELZ. JUST DEVASTATING AT THE END. IT WAS LIKE JOHN MALKOVICH IN DANGEROUS LIAISONS. OR CINERALLA IN NOBODYS FOOL. IT HURT SO MUCH TO SEE. TO SEE THAT ATTEMPT TO REACH OUT SHUT DOWN. THE CHARACTER WORK AND THE ACTING ....

...I STILL CANT BELIEVE NUMBER ONE WOULNT LET THE CAPTAIN MAKE PIRATE JOKES. THAT IS A PAIN THAT WILL LINGER.


----------



## Rabulias

Spoiler: Episode 9



Dangit! Really? Hemmer gets killed off? I really liked his character. Grumble grumble.


----------



## Stalker0

Rabulias said:


> Spoiler: Episode 9
> 
> 
> 
> Dangit! Really? Hemmer gets killed off? I really liked his character. Grumble grumble.





Spoiler



It is possible that he's still alive, some crazy thing at the bottom that pads his fall, the cold preventing the gorn from hatching. But the interview with the actor suggests its true (though hell they could take a page out of the marvel playbook and be BSing it just for the shock).

I'm more interested in Uhuru and where she is going. I guess they could always bring her back for season 2.



One aspect I love is the casual meetings in the captain's mess. Eating food while talking about missions, now that's a real actual crew conversation.


----------



## Rabulias

Stalker0 said:


> One aspect I love is the casual meetings in the captain's mess. Eating food while talking about missions, now that's a real actual crew conversation.



I know! Spock on dishwasher duty! Loved it!


----------



## Mort

Stalker0 said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> It is possible that he's still alive, some crazy thing at the bottom that pads his fall, the cold preventing the gorn from hatching. But the interview with the actor suggests its true (though hell they could take a page out of the marvel playbook and be BSing it just for the shock).
> 
> I'm more interested in Uhuru and where she is going. I guess they could always bring her back for season 2.
> 
> 
> 
> One aspect I love is the casual meetings in the captain's mess. Eating food while talking about missions, now that's a real actual crew conversation.





Spoiler



Yeah, the "other" cadet - 100% she was getting offed as soon as she was introduced, the newly promoted lieutenant - suspected he wasn't long for this world. But Hemmer was a shock (though I started to wonder when he got spit on). Really liked the character, it's too bad!



This episode has me wondering if the writers/producers just decided not to worry about cannon/continuity at this point?



Spoiler



Because 3 of the people who participated on this mission AND were on the ship during _Arena _(ST: TOS) are now VERY familiar with the Gorn, what they are, what they can do AND their particular weaknesses (eg. cold, aggression etc.).



Not that that's a bad thing, but it's something to know.


----------



## Thomas Shey

Hex08 said:


> This has been my argument against Section 31 since the beginning. No matter how "realistic" some may think it is for the organization to exist it really does fly in the face of everything we are supposed to believe about the Federation.




Well, that's often coming from people who believe the presentation of the Federation is to one degree or another, propaganda, so that doesn't bother them.


----------



## Hex08

Just watched episode nine....DAMN!

I was just starting to warm up to Hemmer, he was one of the three characters I didn't really care for but mostly because he wasn't around much. As we got to see more of him I started liking him and episode nine really solidified him for me. I was so shocked by his sacrifice; I didn't see his death coming at all.

I don't have many complaints about this show but this episode reinforced my dislike of M'Benga. His remark about being "jumpy" seemed out of place. The worst thing about him is that I frequently can't understand him, the constant whisper acting is driving me nuts. Speak up!


----------



## Mort

Hex08 said:


> Just watched episode nine....DAMN!
> 
> I was just starting to warm up to Hemmer, he was one of the three characters I didn't really care for but mostly because he wasn't around much. As we got to see more of him I started liking him and episode nine really solidified him for me. I was so shocked by his sacrifice; I didn't see his death coming at all.
> 
> I don't have many complaints about this show but this episode reinforced my dislike of M'Benga. His remark about being "jumpy" seemed out of place. The worst thing about him is that I frequently can't understand him, the constant whisper acting is driving me nuts. Speak up!




Yeah, it's interesting. Most of the characters have issues and baggage. But the others are working past the issues, dealing with them. M'Benga's character seems completely consumed by them, even AFTER their resolution. It's distracting and I'm not really clicking with the character positively.


----------



## Hex08

Mort said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, the "other" cadet - 100% she was getting offed as soon as she was introduced, the newly promoted lieutenant - suspected he wasn't long for this world. But Hemmer was a shock (though I started to wonder when he got spit on). Really liked the character, it's too bad!
> 
> 
> 
> This episode has me wondering if the writers/producers just decided not to worry about cannon/continuity at this point?
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Because 3 of the people who participated on this mission AND were on the ship during _Arena _(ST: TOS) are now VERY familiar with the Gorn, what they are, what they can do AND their particular weaknesses (eg. cold, aggression etc.).
> 
> 
> 
> Not that that's a bad thing, but it's something to know.



Well, Trek has always been a bit wonky when it comes to canon. It really only gets paid attention to when it serves the plot. Remember when warp drive was causing subspace rifts in the TNG episode _Force of Nature_ so the Federation instituted a rule that the maximum speed a starship could use was warp 5? I'm pretty sure it was never mentioned again.

I'm also not convinced that the P+ Star Trek shows are part of the original timeline (official statements aside). There are just too many differences. Sometimes I feel like we have the original timeline (TOS, TNG, DS9, Voyager & Enterprise), the Abramsverse and the Paramount+ timeline. The only P+ show I feel is solidly set in the original timeline is Lower Decks. Overall though, I don't worry about it and just enjoy it.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg

SNARFZODIACKILLER IS BACK BABY! I TRIED TO WAIT BEFORE WATCHING ANOTHER STRANGE NEW WORLDS, BUT THAT WOULD BE LIKE STOPPING OZZYS CRAZY TRAIN BEFORE THE KILLER GUITAR SHREDDING.

ALL ABOARD THE FLAGSHIP OF THE ENTERPRISE HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
AY AY AY AY AY AY AY 

OH I FORGOT THE RATING FOR THE LAST EPISODE. 
EPISODE SEVEN WAS 13 AND 3/8 CHRIS CORNELL ROCK SCREAMS.

SNK EPISODE 8 REVIEW:

OH. SO THAT HAPPENED. WRITERS HAD A PROBLEM WITH FITTING IN TELEPORTER GIRL. SO LETS JUST RIGHT HER OFF ALREADY. DEUS EX MACHINA SOLVED BY DEUS EX STUPIDA.

DONT THINK THAT SNK HASNT NOTICED THAT WE ARE NOW THREE/THREE IN A ROW. E6? LADY FRIEND INTO CHILD KILLING. E7? LADY FRIEND INTO KILLING ABND PIRACY AND LOOKING REALLY HOT IN BLACK (COUNSELOR SERVALAN, I SALUTE YOU). E8? LADY PROBLEM SOLVED BY WRITING OFF SHOW. 

LOOK, I GET IT. ITS HARD. WRITING. KEEPING TRACK OF THINGS. THE DOCTORS DAUGHTER WAS GETTING TO CHIEF KYLE STATUS- A SURPRISE WHEN YOU SHOW UP. MAYBE ITS THE TRANSPORTERS ON THE FLAGSHIP? EVERYTHING THAT TOUCHES THEM BEGINS TO DISAPPEAR FROM THE PLOT OF THE SHOW. 

THE EPISODE ITSELF WAS GOOD. ACTORS GOTTA ACT. AND THERE IS NOTHING AS METAL AS SOME REN FAIRE ACTION. A FEW SWORDS AND WIZARDS AND ARCHERS? GET THE LED OUT BABY, WE ARE GOING TO RAMBLE ON TO THE DARKEST DEPTHS OF MORDOR.

DOCTOR "I HAVE NO PERSONALITY TRAITS DEVELOPED YET" OPENS THE EPISODE BY TAKING IN SOME MAJOR COCAINE. HE WAS ALL INTO THAT MEDICAL EXPERIMENT LIKE SCARFACE. HE GOT SO HIGH HE BECAME KING. AND ITS GOOD TO BE THE KING.

OF COURSE, THERE WERE PROBLEMS IN THE KINGDOM. PROBLEMS THAT CAN ONLY BE SOLVED BY #FREEHEMMER. KINGDOC AND #FREEHEMMER ROCKED AND ROLLED AND EVENTUALLY LEARNED THAT ALL OF THE Q CONTINUUM WAS BOOKED OUT AND THEY HAD TO PARLAY WITH A NEBULA PRESENCE THAT WAS SPONTANEOUSLY CREATED BY THE BASS LINE FROM ACE OF SPADES.

PARLAY SUCCESSFUL, EVERYONE GOES BACK TO NORMAL. NOT A GREAT EPISODE, BUT A SOLID CHOICE. 

STAR TREK IS LIKE DEF LEPPARD. ENTERPRISE WAS LIKE THE DRUMMER LOSING HIS ARM. WILL STAR TREK EVERY ROCK AGAIN? AND STRANGE NEW WORLDS SEASON 1 IS TOTALLY HYSTERIA. PROOF THAT STAR TREK CAN, AND WILL, ROCK. EVERY EPISODE SLAMS. THIS EPISODE IS GODS OF WAR. IT MIGHT NOT BE ONE OF THE SEVEN CHARTING SINGLES, BUT UR NOT SKIPPING IT.

FINAL RATING: 87 TROUT MASK REPLICAS.


----------



## Morrus

Guess they need a new engineer!


----------



## Mallus

Damn, I liked that character… also, this is going to go down as the best first season of Star Trek after S01 of the original, isn’t it?


----------



## Horwath

Morrus said:


> Guess they need a new engineer!



Beam me up, ......


----------



## Umbran

Mort said:


> This episode has me wondering if the writers/producers just decided not to worry about cannon/continuity at this point?




Well, so far, there's nothing we've seen that would _change the outcome_ of that TOS episode.  Remember that in _The Arena_, the crew could not communicate with Kirk.  

Also, they seem to have established that gorn development is, at least in some manner, dependent on the host they hatch in, and that they seem to have life stages around molting.  The gorn we have seen have been fast.  The gorn in _The Arena_ was slow, but nigh invulnerable in hand-to-hand combat.  Different hatching or a different life stage might render much of what the crew experienced here irrelevant in that episode.


----------



## Umbran

Morrus said:


> Guess they need a new engineer!




Star Trek: Strange New Worlds, Season 2 - Enter the Scotsman!


----------



## Umbran

Mallus said:


> Damn, I liked that character…




Yeah.  They had something they could really develop there, but... didn't.

Word is that, while the character is gone, the actor's not done with Trek just yet.  It isn't clear in what capacity or what show he'll be continuing on with, but they didn't just hire their first blind actor, and kill him off in one season and leave him out to dry.


----------



## Mallus

Umbran said:


> Word is that, while the character is gone, the actor's not done with Trek just yet.  It isn't clear in what capacity or what show he'll be continuing on with, but they didn't just hire their first blind actor, and kill him off in one season and leave him out to dry.



Interesting.

Did M’Benga catch him in the transporter? I’m trying to recall where the doc was in that scene.

Wait, you said the character’s gone. What other shows are planned for that era?


----------



## Umbran

Mallus said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Did M’Benga catch him in the transporter? I’m trying to recall where the doc was in that scene.




1) They made huge notes that communications and transporters would not function on the surface.
2) If Dr. M'Benga or Mr. Kyle caught him in a transporter, they'd not be having a funeral for him.  



Mallus said:


> Wait, you said the character’s gone. What other shows are planned for that era?




Well, he could come back to SNW, without the makeup.  They did that for Sara Mitch, the original actress for Airam on ST: Disco, after she developed reactions to the prosthetic makeup.

I think the only other show planned for that era is Section 31.  But really, the _actor_ isn't attached to an era - they could use him anywhere = Picard, Season 3, more Discovery, he could be a voice actor for either Lower Decks or Prodigy...


----------



## Snarf Zagyg

SNARFZODIACKILLER EPISODE 9 REVIEW:

WHAT?

WHATWHATWHATWHATWHATWHATWHATWHATWHAT? I CANT EVEN.

I
CANT
EVEN.

WHAT DID I JUST SEE? THIS WAS NIRVANA AT GLASTONBURY. ALL KILLER NO FILLER.

THE EPISODE OPENS UP WITH UHURU AND SOME RANDOS GETTING PROPS. TWO RANDOS IVE NEVER SEEN GETTING PROMOTIONS? 

CONGRATULATIONS, YOUVE JUST BEEN GIVEN RED SHIRTS. 

SPEAKING OF GREAT IDEAS, LETS SPLIT OF THE CREW. AND PUT THE RANDOS ON THE MILK RUN, BECAUSE THAT ALWAYS GOES WELL. 

SO NOW WE ARE ON ICE PLANET HOTH, AND THERE ARE NO COMMUNICATIONS AND NO SCANNERS, AND ONE OF THE MANY CRASHED ENTERPRISES FROM THE KELVIN MOVIE UNIVERSE IS LOOMING OMINOUSLY IN THE BACKGROUND. AND THEN THERE IS BLOOD. AND GORN. AND ...

OH. MY. GOD. IS THAT THE XENOMORPHS THEME MUSIC? IT IS! THATS RIGHT. WE HAVE GONE FROM CRIBBING FROM DAS BOOT TO SHAMELESSLY BORROWING FROM ALIEN AND THE THING. THIS IS THINGLIEN. AND I THINK CRONENBERG LEFT DISCOVERY TO GIVE SOME ADDED BODY HORROR.

SO THE CREW, AND #FREEHEMMER, STUMBLE AROUND AND FIND A LITTLE GIRL. WE WILL CALL HER NEWT2. NEWT2 STIRS ALL THE FEELZ IN NOTKHAN, AND THEN THINGS GET DARK. SPOCK HAS TO GO ALL EMO AND SCREAMO AND ...

WAIT. NO. NONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO....

NOT #FREEHEMMER. THAT SOUND YOU HEARD? THAT WAS THE SOUND OF A MILLION FANS SCREAMING AT ONCE, "IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN KYLE!" AND ANOTHER BILLION FANS SCREAMING, "IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN THAT DUDE AT THE TRANSPORTER WHOSE NAME I CANNOT RECALL!!!!!!!"

#SORRYNOTSORRY







HOW CAN THE MOST AWESOME THING EVER HURT SO BAD? ITS LIKE IF THE DOCTOR TOLD YOU THAT LISTENING TO BLACK SABBATHS WAR PIGS ONE MORE TIME WOULD CAUSE YOUR LIVER TO EXPLODE. AND THAT ENDING?

IM NOT CRYING! UR CRYING. SHUT UP. 

FINAL RATING: IM HAVING MY BRAINS SMASHED OUT BY A LEMON SLICE WRAPPED AROUND A LARGE GOLDEN BRICK.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

He will be missed, though there was talk that at least the actor isn't leaving Star Trek. But even so - we will miss the _character_.

TOS costume department really don't seem to match the capabilities of the new Gorn. I guess I can live with that retcon. Though it seems as nasty as the Gorn are portrayed... they get a bit more mellow after the Metreon incident?


----------



## Ryujin

Umbran said:


> Star Trek: Strange New Worlds, Season 2 - Enter the Scotsman!



Have you seen James Doohan's son Chris? I doubt that they'll use him, but they should.


----------



## Umbran

Ryujin said:


> Have you seen James Doohan's son Chris? I doubt that they'll use him, but they should.




Chris Doohan is already 63 years old!


----------



## Morrus

Umbran said:


> Chris Doohan is already 63 years old!



Yikes!


----------



## Ryujin

Umbran said:


> Chris Doohan is already 63 years old!



Jeez. I lost track of when I saw him in Star Trek Continues. (At least I think that was it.) Maybe son of son of Scotty? MacMacDoohan? O'Doohan?


----------



## Morrus

Ryujin said:


> Jeez. I lost track of when I saw him in Star Trek Continues. (At least I think that was it.) Maybe son of son of Scotty? MacMacDoohan? O'Doohan?



Dad of Scotty. If Scotty had a son in STN, he definitely wouldn't be in his 60s!


----------



## Ryujin

Morrus said:


> Dad of Scotty. If Scotty had a son in STN, he definitely wouldn't be in his 60s!



Thinking of the actor, not the character.


----------



## bloodtide

S1E9

The gorn are back...again.  Look sure the gorn are great old school trek villains.....but it's a bit odd to keep reusing them every couple of episodes.  Part of what makes them cool is the 'unknown' factor.  At this rate we will have Gum the Gorn crewman soon.

Hooray for Ensign Doomed getting promoted, but everyone knew he was going to die...he might as well pulled out a holo crystal of his girl friend and said "as soon as I get back to Earth I'm gonna marry her!"

Pike praises Uhura for being on the ship....but, um, exactly "what" is he talking about?  The like ten minutes of screen time she has done something useful in the past eight episodes?  This is the huge problem with these pathetically short seasons, season one is just about over...but is barley at the holiday break for any normal show.

Sure it's cool old school trek....but the captain, science officer, ONLY doctor, ONLY nurse, security chief and chief engineer....with the red shirt extras....all leave the ship on an away mission at the same time?    

So like most of the crew left the ship....on a class L "Hoth" planet.....and then froze to death?  Seems starfleet should train people better then that.  

Right from the start they all know a monster is maybe in the ship....and yet Pike is all like "ok, lets all split up to make nice easy small targets" like in most horror movies.

And Alien Bob...and little human girl.  Sure, Bob can be a monster "blah blah blah".....but sure was amazing Newt just happen to be a pretty young human girl so she would get sympathy.  

So they "scan" Bob..we guess....but can't detect the baby gorn...sure, whatever.  But did the scans also miss all of Bob's other health issues?

And...sure....Bob is a typical idiot alien and hides his condition from everyone so he can die and advance the plot.  Sure, he speaks gibberish, but he could still "point", show his "wounds" and ask for help.

And for that matter....if Newt does really care about Bob....then why does she no ask for help for him?  She knows all about the Alien tm rip off gorn, right?

And why does Newt keep asking to "leave" like an annoying brat?  She knows Alien Bob has kitten gorn in him and they will pop out soon, right?  So even if they did leave, that would still happen....

And it takes forever for Nurse Capple to do the basic ''first aid safety check" and look at Bob's body.  And...of course...right at the second she does so.....the gorn hatch!

Wow...amazing Newt knows the walk five steps away and curl up in a ball move that makes you undetectable to gorn kittens.

And...gosh...sure is amazing luck that the sick bay force field bed is working 100%.  EVERYTHING else in sick bay barley works and flickers like crazy.  But with no force field, then "not really" nurse Chaple would have died.

So......some kitten sized gorn climb out of alien Bob.....and like a minute latter one of the kitten gorn kills Lt. Doomed.....and drags him away?  How does that work?

So.....they sure talk a LOT about Earth type life with 'packs' and 'alphas' and 'dominance' and 'challenges'.  The gorn are aliens...so, you, know, they should be a lot more alien like.

So Pike tells Spock to do something....so cool Spock taps into his repressed Vulcan Hyde persona.....and then with a yell he breaks a floor grate!  Wow...scary. 

So...in like less then an hour kitten gorn grows into Velociraptor gorn?  

So gorn "evolved" to be scan proof?  What?  The Star Trek tech that "scans" for lifeforms can't be too much more then 100 years old, and would be updated every couple years.   But the gorn EVOLVED to be scan proof?

And...well, even IF the gorn are somehow magicaly scan proof......well, they still interact with the environment.  In a mostly closed environment you can track life by oxygen use and accumulations of carbon doxiode.  And EVEN if the gorn breathes and exhales something else.....that "something else" HAS to be the standard gases found on a Federation Starship, and you could track that.  Also what about motion sensors?  Sound sensors?  

And the gorn have evolved to be immune to telepathy?

So Laan throws down her phaser and is all like "come get me I'm unarmed".......and the hour old gorn understands this?  The newborn gorn understands the concept of a "gun"?  Guess it evolved that too?  Or do the gorn have a genetic memory?

And for Laans "don't use a gun, guns are bad plan".....er, why did she not just grab another phaser and hide it, so she could zap the gorn.....

Wow...sure was lucky the gorn did not evolve to be immune to cryo gas, right?

And...and....and....gorn spit egg slime....ok.  Wonder how gorn reproduce with no other people around?  Do they kill each other?

And nooooo....Hemer!  He does the whole..."oh well they will hatch any second...guess Andorian equals like twenty minutes before hatching" and kills himself.   

Wonder if Doc M  could have put Hemer in a transporter to save him?  Oh, well, he needed to die....

So, unless there are society gorn and beast gorn......the mess we have seen of gorn life makes no sense.  Social animals that do the whole "alpha" thing don't (always) kill every other one of their kind.  Such an animal would die out quick.  Wolves don't kill all other wolves in a pack....because there ARE wolf packs.  'Gators kill each other....but then they live mostly alone.  


So....how oh how did the gorn EVER develop 23rd century technology if they can't have a stable social society?

Unless the gorn are not a "real" race and they were made artificially by another race to be weapons/hunters/WMDs.....


----------



## Stalker0

bloodtide said:


> Pike praises Uhura for being on the ship....but, um, exactly "what" is he talking about?  The like ten minutes of screen time she has done something useful in the past eight episodes?
> 
> So they "scan" Bob..we guess....but can't detect the baby gorn...sure, whatever.  But did the scans also miss all of Bob's other health issues?
> 
> So gorn "evolved" to be scan proof?  What?  The Star Trek tech that "scans" for lifeforms can't be too much more then 100 years old, and would be updated every couple years.   But the gorn EVOLVED to be scan proof? And...well, even IF the gorn are somehow magicaly scan proof......well, they still interact with the environment.  In a mostly closed environment you can track life by oxygen use and accumulations of carbon doxiode.  And EVEN if the gorn breathes and exhales something else.....that "something else" HAS to be the standard gases found on a Federation Starship, and you could track that.  Also what about motion sensors?  Sound sensors?
> 
> And nooooo....Hemer!  He does the whole..."oh well they will hatch any second...guess Andorian equals like twenty minutes before hatching" and kills himself.




Uhuru was able to decode the music signal on that alien ship, that both saved her away team, may have saved the enterprise, saved all of the people on that one planet, and prevented direct conflict with another alien species....as a cadet. That one incident alone gives her an immediate super platinum star. I mean what more do you want?
Bob was a completely alien race, so you could argue the scans didn't know what to scan for. That said, I'm sure there are plenty of other incidents with completely alien life where the medical tricorders are able to suss out some things.
The scan proofing is a bit odd. I could understand that the Gorn naturally block certain raditation the tricorders use in their scanning (not necessarily direct evolution just a happenstance), but your right that those things can scan for all sorts of crazy things. There should have been SOME way to track the gorn, even indirectly.
While it is established that different species have different incubation periods with the gorn, I will agree 20 minutes is crazy fast for any life cycle. Even our common fly, which is genetic extreme simple and its a very small creature, still takes at least 8 hours or so to hatch (often 20 hours). My rationale was that Hemmer knew help wouldn't be available from the enterprise for hours yet, and Hemmer knew that if he stayed the crew would do everything they could to save him....which would end up getting them killed.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg

Stalker0 said:


> While it is established that different species have different incubation periods with the gorn, I will agree 20 minutes is crazy fast for any life cycle. Even our common fly, which is genetic extreme simple and its a very small creature, still takes at least 8 hours or so to hatch (often 20 hours). My rationale was that Hemmer knew help wouldn't be available from the enterprise for hours yet, and Hemmer knew that if he stayed the crew would do everything they could to save him....which would end up getting them killed.




(I try not to dwell to deeply on that, because, ugh, but IIRC it was established early in the episode that the reason for splitting them was because it would take at least a week for the Enterprise to go there and back. While it was unclear how long had passed on the show, help from the Enterprise would have been several days ... not hours. Moreover, everything we had seen to this point indicates that maybe this is an example of "better safe than sorry" given that one egg-carrying person had taken out an entire starship.

Anyway, I can't recall the last time I was this excited for a season finale! I have a strong feeling that it may be a little anti-climactic, given that we just saw one main character killed and another written off for the time being, and we may just see a setup for next year. Even so ... this show has exceeded all of my expectations.)


----------



## Ryujin

Snarf Zagyg said:


> (I try not to dwell to deeply on that, because, ugh, but IIRC it was established early in the episode that the reason for splitting them was because it would take at least a week for the Enterprise to go there and back. While it was unclear how long had passed on the show, help from the Enterprise would have been several days ... not hours. Moreover, everything we had seen to this point indicates that maybe this is an example of "better safe than sorry" given that one egg-carrying person had taken out an entire starship.
> 
> Anyway, I can't recall the last time I was this excited for a season finale! I have a strong feeling that it may be a little anti-climactic, given that we just saw one main character killed and another written off for the time being, and we may just see a setup for next year. Even so ... this show has exceeded all of my expectations.)



It's really making me long for the old 30-odd episodes seasons, from when I was a kid.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg

Ryujin said:


> It's really making me long for the old 30-odd episodes seasons, from when I was a kid.




Yes, but I think we forget just how much filler that usually required. 

...then again, I think we also see that there can be plenty of filler in the 10-13 episode seasons too.


----------



## BookTenTiger

Snarf Zagyg said:


> (I try not to dwell to deeply on that, because, ugh, but IIRC it was established early in the episode that the reason for splitting them was because it would take at least a week for the Enterprise to go there and back. While it was unclear how long had passed on the show, help from the Enterprise would have been several days ... not hours. Moreover, everything we had seen to this point indicates that maybe this is an example of "better safe than sorry" given that one egg-carrying person had taken out an entire starship.
> 
> Anyway, I can't recall the last time I was this excited for a season finale! I have a strong feeling that it may be a little anti-climactic, given that we just saw one main character killed and another written off for the time being, and we may just see a setup for next year. Even so ... this show has exceeded all of my expectations.)



My prediction: a full episode of Hemmer's next of kin receiving the news, holding his funeral, slowly moving on... remarrying, moving to a new planet, grandkids being born... the memory of Hemmer slowly fading...

And then we hear Riker's voice: "Holodeck, freeze program."

Everything pauses, and Riker steps out into the scene. "So that's why Hemmer was Snarf's favorite character. Now I finally understand..."


----------



## Thomas Shey

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Yes, but I think we forget just how much filler that usually required.
> 
> ...then again, I think we also see that there can be plenty of filler in the 10-13 episode seasons too.




I've actually seen an argument that with anything over about 8 episodes you start to run into that, back when the Netflix Marvel shows were on.  Its less clear how much that has to be true with a more episodic show like STSNW, which is kind of outlier in modern genre shows.


----------



## Umbran

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Yes, but I think we forget just how much filler that usually required.
> 
> ...then again, I think we also see that there can be plenty of filler in the 10-13 episode seasons too.




"Filler" is not a function of the number of episodes.  It is a function of whether the writers actually choose to _do something_ with an episode.  What we usually call filler is an episode that's not part of a major plot arc for the season.  Traditionally, that has made filler some of the best opportunities to resolve character development.

SNW, however, doesn't have major plot arcs as such, so... every episode is filler.


----------



## Ryujin

Umbran said:


> "Filler" is not a function of the number of episodes.  It is a function of whether the writers actually choose to _do something_ with an episode.  What we usually call filler is an episode that's not part of a major plot arc for the season.  Traditionally, that has made filler some of the best opportunities to resolve character development.
> 
> SNW, however, doesn't have major plot arcs as such, so... every episode is filler.



Or it's used to describe activity, in a show, that does nothing to drive the plot forward. Things that aren't intrinsic to the story or involving character development. There are shows in which people sit around, talking about nothing in particular. That's also filler.


----------



## Morrus

While when I enjoy a show I don’t want a season to end, I definitely appreciate being left wanting more rather than something overstaying it’s welcome. Not that it’s a binary thing.


----------



## Ryujin

Morrus said:


> While when I enjoy a show I don’t want a season to end, I definitely appreciate being left wanting more rather than something overstaying it’s welcome. Not that it’s a binary thing.



I can certainly agree with that and am quite impressed with a show when the showrunners have an arc they want to cover, stick to it, and ignore the offers of more money to continue rather pointlessly. Especially so when I'm left wanting more, because it's obvious that they could continue to make bank.


----------



## bloodtide

I hate these short seasons.  I guess they are "great" for the creators....they shoot a couple shows in a couple weeks, then go on vacation for a year.  

Oh, and sure, each show cost like a billion dollars.....but you know what, that is ALL on the creators.  You could cut out 75% of the CGI Crap Spam and still have a good show.  

I'm not a fan of filler, but I would have liked to seen more events.  Just take Uhura.  So for the YEAR (?) she was on the ship she sat around and did utterly nothing...and then, oh, that ONE TIME decoded a music language.  Wow, what a character arc.  Too bad she could not have had like three or four more episodes.  

Then take Hemer.  He comes on board as the new engineering chief, gets a line in every other episode....when his character is not UTTERLY ABSENT from the show.  Oh, and now he is gone.  

Pike was worried about his future vision....then that was just dropped.  Una is super woman...then that was just dropped.  Doc M has a sick daughter....for a couple weeks...and then bam she is cured and living on Cloud Nine.  Nurse Chaple is goofy.....but too bad SHE never got an episode.  And guess Ortega is just filler.

And....ok....Laan Khan is gone too?  

Somehow I get the feeling this was a very hostile show creation.  With "them" demanding they "must" put Uhura on the show because "the reason".  And the creators are just like..um..sure...and put her in the back ground.  Then they demand you MUST have Khans decedent because someone had that wacky idea YEARS ago, but it never made it into offical Star Trek, and it "must" be there.  So they add Kid of Khan....just so she can leave the show.

And then too....the show forgets to EXPLORE Strange New Worlds too.......


----------



## Morrus

bloodtide said:


> I hate these short seasons.  I guess they are "great" for the creators....they shoot a couple shows in a couple weeks, then go on vacation for a year.
> 
> Oh, and sure, each show cost like a billion dollars.....but you know what, that is ALL on the creators.  You could cut out 75% of the CGI Crap Spam and still have a good show.
> 
> I'm not a fan of filler, but I would have liked to seen more events.  Just take Uhura.  So for the YEAR (?) she was on the ship she sat around and did utterly nothing...and then, oh, that ONE TIME decoded a music language.  Wow, what a character arc.  Too bad she could not have had like three or four more episodes.
> 
> Then take Hemer.  He comes on board as the new engineering chief, gets a line in every other episode....when his character is not UTTERLY ABSENT from the show.  Oh, and now he is gone.
> 
> Pike was worried about his future vision....then that was just dropped.  Una is super woman...then that was just dropped.  Doc M has a sick daughter....for a couple weeks...and then bam she is cured and living on Cloud Nine.  Nurse Chaple is goofy.....but too bad SHE never got an episode.  And guess Ortega is just filler.
> 
> And....ok....Laan Khan is gone too?
> 
> Somehow I get the feeling this was a very hostile show creation.  With "them" demanding they "must" put Uhura on the show because "the reason".  And the creators are just like..um..sure...and put her in the back ground.  Then they demand you MUST have Khans decedent because someone had that wacky idea YEARS ago, but it never made it into offical Star Trek, and it "must" be there.  So they add Kid of Khan....just so she can leave the show.
> 
> And then too....the show forgets to EXPLORE Strange New Worlds too.......



I know your schtick is to troll for reactions by hatewatching shows, but it's been tiresome for a long time, and is starting to just be irritating. If you have nothing positive to add to these threads, I'm going to ask you leave them. Please try to be better.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg

BookTenTiger said:


> My prediction: a full episode of Hemmer's next of kin receiving the news, holding his funeral, slowly moving on... remarrying, moving to a new planet, grandkids being born... the memory of Hemmer slowly fading...
> 
> And then we hear Riker's voice: "Holodeck, freeze program."
> 
> Everything pauses, and Riker steps out into the scene. "So that's why Hemmer was Snarf's favorite character. Now I finally understand..."




Technically, #FREEHEMMER is (was) SNK's favorite character. Because there ain't no party like a Blind Warrior Monk party, 'cuz a blind warrior monk don't stop. 

Putting that aside, while I can discuss the ways in which ST:ENT was a failure(1), it also had some good moments, and Seasons 3 and 4 were above the Voyager line(2).

The cast and fans did not deserve that ending. 


(1) The opening theme, the sexualization of T'Pol, _it's been a long road_, nonsensical timey-wimey plot line to start the show, _getting from there to here_, a captain with the defining characteristic of owning a dog, _it's been a long time_, interchangeable white-guy cast defined by "southern" and "English," _but my time is finally near_, the constant need for the sexy-time cast to scrub each other down in the showers, _CUZ IVE GOT FAITH OF THE HEART_ .... kill me now ...

(2) The "Voyager line" is the Star Trek version of the Mendoza line. It's the bare minimum level of acceptance for a live-action Star Trek Series. Enterprise seasons 1 and 2 were hitting below the Voyager line, 3 and 4 were above it.


----------



## Ryujin

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Technically, #FREEHEMMER is (was) SNK's favorite character. Because there ain't no party like a Blind Warrior Monk party, 'cuz a blind warrior monk don't stop.
> 
> Putting that aside, while I can discuss the ways in which ST:ENT was a failure(1), it also had some good moments, and Seasons 3 and 4 were above the Voyager line(2).
> 
> The cast and fans did not deserve that ending.
> 
> 
> (1) The opening theme, the sexualization of T'Pol, _it's been a long road_, nonsensical timey-wimey plot line to start the show, _getting from there to here_, a captain with the defining characteristic of owning a dog, _it's been a long time_, interchangeable white-guy cast defined by "southern" and "English," _but my time is finally near_, the constant need for the sexy-time cast to scrub each other down in the showers, _CUZ IVE GOT FAITH OF THE HEART_ .... kill me now ...
> 
> (2) The "Voyager line" is the Star Trek version of the Mendoza line. It's the bare minimum level of acceptance for a live-action Star Trek Series. Enterprise seasons 1 and 2 were hitting below the Voyager line, 3 and 4 were above it.



Rather ironically Enterprise only seemed to start giving the fans what they really wanted, after the cancellation was announced.


----------



## Hex08

Ryujin said:


> Rather ironically Enterprise only seemed to start giving the fans what they really wanted, after the cancellation was announced.



If I remember correctly, the showrunner changed for season four and so did the feel of the show. Season four has some really good episodes (to be honest, I think there were a lot of good episodes of Enterprise aside from the temporal cold war stuff).


----------



## Ryujin

Hex08 said:


> If I remember correctly, the showrunner changed for season four and so did the feel of the show. Season four has some really good episodes (to be honest, I think there were a lot of good episodes of Enterprise aside from the temporal cold war stuff).



Some of the early stuff, between the Andorians and Vulcans, had some legs. It could have been built up into the birth of the Federation, which is what all of the Star Trek fans that I know personally were expecting from the show. A "Babylon 5" quote fits in with how I originally thought that was going to go, giving some intrinsic reason why all those races who seem smarter, stronger, or just more resilient than mere humans might consider us to be worth something:

_"Humans share one unique quality: They build communities. If the Narns or Centauri or any other race built a station like this, it would be used only by their own people. But everywhere humans go, they create communities out of diverse and sometimes hostile populations. It is a great gift, and a terrible responsibility-—one that cannot be abandoned."_

Making humanity the glue that holds the Federation together, rather than the strength that drives it, would have been a great way to go.


----------



## BookTenTiger

Is Hemer the anti-Neelix? An alien crew member who at first doesn't like anybody, but slowly becomes the coolest character? And then dies?


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Ryujin said:


> Some of the early stuff, between the Andorians and Vulcans, had some legs. It could have been built up into the birth of the Federation, which is what all of the Star Trek fans that I know personally were expecting from the show. A "Babylon 5" quote fits in with how I originally thought that was going to go, giving some intrinsic reason why all those races who seem smarter, stronger, or just more resilient than mere humans might consider us to be worth something:
> 
> _"Humans share one unique quality: They build communities. If the Narns or Centauri or any other race built a station like this, it would be used only by their own people. But everywhere humans go, they create communities out of diverse and sometimes hostile populations. It is a great gift, and a terrible responsibility-—one that cannot be abandoned."_
> 
> Making humanity the glue that holds the Federation together, rather than the strength that drives it, would have been a great way to go.



Wow, I totally forgot that this view on humanity came from Babylon 5. 
It was my idea of what humanity's role really is in the Federation, but it seems my idea actually came from also watching Babylon 5.

I mean, some say it's because humans might glue two warp cores together just to see what happens, e.g. they build crazy stuff no one else dares to. But I don't believe that, because that is really just a Star Trek trope, and not actually limited to humans. It's Worf that turns a communicator in a projectile shield, and Dax does a lot of jury-rigging stuff as well, Spock builds a plasma-seeking torpedo. Of course O'Brien, Scotty and LaForge do stuff like that a lot, too - but they are the engineers on their respective ships, it's natural they do most of the tinkering. But in the end, it's really just part of Starfleet training (and more so if you're actually an engineer.)


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Wow, I totally forgot that this view on humanity came from Babylon 5.
> It was my idea of what humanity's role really is in the Federation, but it seems my idea actually came from also watching Babylon 5.
> 
> I mean, some say it's because humans might glue two warp cores together just to see what happens, e.g. they build crazy stuff no one else dares to. But I don't believe that, because that is really just a Star Trek trope, and not actually limited to humans. It's Worf that turns a communicator in a projectile shield, and Dax does a lot of jury-rigging stuff as well, Spock builds a plasma-seeking torpedo. Of course O'Brien, Scotty and LaForge do stuff like that a lot, too - but they are the engineers on their respective ships, it's natural they do most of the tinkering. But in the end, it's really just part of Starfleet training (and more so if you're actually an engineer.)



No, the B5 version works for Star Trek too. I guarantee it comes from JMS watching TOS as a kid and coming up with the idea. There's evidence to support it.


----------



## Ryujin

FitzTheRuke said:


> No, the B5 version works for Star Trek too. I guarantee it comes from JMS watching TOS as a kid and coming up with the idea. There's evidence to support it.



Oh, almost certainly. I just thought that Delen's speech said it more clearly than anything else that I had heard.


----------



## Janx

Well that was scary as heck.

Didn't Kirk have a chance to wipe them all out once?

And Nooooo, Not Hemmer!


----------



## Vael

Vael said:


> It's way too early to say this, but still, I kinda want to put down this marker ... SNW will have the best first season of all the Trek series. I've been really impressed how quickly the show gets going and it just feels so confident.



Just want to say ... I was right. SNW's first season didn't miss a beat, and the season finale was also impressive.


----------



## BookTenTiger

Someone online mentioned the "ST Finale" being two hours long, and I got excited... until I realized they meant "Stranger Things," not "Star Trek."

I'll still be enjoying the finale tonight!


----------



## Snarf Zagyg

BookTenTiger said:


> Someone online mentioned the "ST Finale" being two hours long, and I got excited... until I realized they meant "Stranger Things," not "Star Trek."
> 
> I'll still be enjoying the finale tonight!




Part of me cannot wait to hunker down with SZK and watch it tonight.

But another part of me wants to postpone that viewing for as long as possible, filled with the dreadful knowledge that once consumed, there will be no further episodes for so very long.

Parting with this season will be such sweet sorrow.


----------



## BookTenTiger

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Part of me cannot wait to hunker down with SZK and watch it tonight.
> 
> But another part of me wants to postpone that viewing for as long as possible, filled with the dreadful knowledge that once consumed, there will be no further episodes for so very long.
> 
> Parting with this season will be such sweet sorrow.



If you watch it at x0.0001 speed, the episode should last you all year!


----------



## Mallus

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Parting with this season will be such sweet sorrow.



Season 2 just finished shooting!

S01E10 was a strong end to a strong first season. Damnit Jim, they did it. They figured out the tone, cast and writing for an updated TOS for the 21st century. Sure, it’s not as groundbreaking as the original, which helped bring science fiction for adults to the US television landscape. Credit where credit is due, it’s not as groundbreaking as Discovery, which pioneered more than one new take on Trek before settling into a kind of epic Becky Chambers vision of the future Federation.

SNW is merely good at everything it sets out to do. Which is great.


----------



## Ryujin

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Part of me cannot wait to hunker down with SZK and watch it tonight.
> 
> But another part of me wants to postpone that viewing for as long as possible, filled with the dreadful knowledge that once consumed, there will be no further episodes for so very long.
> 
> Parting with this season will be such sweet sorrow.



You may not have as long to wait as you think:









						Star Trek: Strange New Worlds Season 2 Wraps Production
					

While its first season finale is still to air on Thursday, Star Trek: Strange New Worlds has [...]




					comicbook.com
				




_EDIT_ - Aw, jeez. I need to refresh before posting.


----------



## Stalker0

Great epsiode.

One thing that was really interesting was it was very against the grain of the typical ST story. The captain pushes for peace, even though others think he's crazy, but he holds to his belief....and ultimately, its the right call, and a salvation for so many. That's the typical ST plot.

But no....this time, the captain FAILS, the decision he makes in opposition to everyone around him (including a fellow captain) is.....WRONG. Its refreshing in a star trek story and is really cool. And it ultimately is a very interesting framing for Pike, for all of Pike's great deeds...its literally the universe's way of saying, "but your not ALL that". Talk about a hit to the ego!

My only critique of the episode, which is quite minor, is I felt many of the main characters were basically cameos. I honestly didn't need to see L'ann or Chapel in this episode, they really didn't contribute anything to the story, and were there for seconds. Could have shaved a little actor budget there and maybe added in another X or Y.

I also thought Paul Wesley was a solid take on a young Kirk, interestingly though he had some of Kirk's rashness and belligerence, really we saw more of his tactical cunning. Kirk was pretty brilliant in this episode, coming up with awesome idea after awesome idea.

One interesting consequence of this, now Pike knows that the Romulans are a real threat, not a boogeyman. How does that effect his decisionmaking going forward, does he alert starfleet command? Even if peace with the Romulans is found in the current timeline, they clearly start out on an aggressive posture (and according to older Pike the federation does not do that well in the war). That should in theory serve as a wake up call....Maaaaayyyybe we should be building a few more attack ships and a few less exploratory vessels, etc.


----------



## Rabulias

An excellent end to an excellent season! A compelling use of Pike's foreknowledge as a story springboard. And now we know why the production photo of Jim Kirk had captain's insignia. I am betting when we see him in season 2 (barring other time travel shenanigans) he will be a lieutenant.

From that last scene, Pike seems to decide "OK, universe, I can't change the accident and my fate. Fine. But I will do my damnedest to change some other things." With the first up being changing Una's fate.

Preparing for the Romulans is a thornier question. (Interesting that Pike is the only person in the Federation who knows what the Romulans look like...) It sounds like the only way to thread the needle and avoid a devastating war is for events to proceed without him or his knowledge.

Also, I wonder if that while he can't _prevent _the accident, maybe he can allow the accident to proceed, but _save _all the cadets (including young Maat) in some way. I will have to go back and watch _The Menagerie _episodes again, or maybe someone here can confirm: is it established canon that some cadets die in the accident?


----------



## Morrus

Dang, that was good! I can't believe we have to wait until next year for more. 

Loved the red TOS movie uniform.

Kirk? Was that a misdirection and he's not in s2? If so, they fooled us all! 

Scotty's voice. No McCoy, Sulu, or Checkov though.

Poor Number One. 

As an aside, I am starting to dislike the copy/paste starship fleet all warping in at the same time thing. It happened in Picard, it happened in Orville, it's happened here. It keeps happening. I just don't think it looks very good and also, presumably when ships are rushing there from all different locations and distance, how come they all time their arrival to the same second? Do they meet up before, wait till they're all together, then leave together? 

(In this case it was OK, it was a single fleet of mining drones which was presumably already together, but in Picard and Orville it wasn't).


----------



## Hex08

Umbran said:


> Star Trek: Strange New Worlds, Season 2 - Enter the Scotsman!



Star Trek: Strange New Worlds, Season 1 Finale - Enter the Scotsman!  

Pretty sure that was Scotty talking to Spock over comms


----------



## Ryujin

Rabulias said:


> An excellent end to an excellent season! A compelling use of Pike's foreknowledge as a story springboard. And now we know why the production photo of Jim Kirk had captain's insignia. I am betting when we see him in season 2 (barring other time travel shenanigans) he will be a lieutenant.
> 
> From that last scene, Pike seems to decide "OK, universe, I can't change the accident and my fate. Fine. But I will do my damnedest to change some other things." With the first up being changing Una's fate.
> 
> Preparing for the Romulans is a thornier question. (Interesting that Pike is the only person in the Federation who knows what the Romulans look like...) It sounds like the only way to thread the needle and avoid a devastating war is for events to proceed without him or his knowledge.
> 
> Also, I wonder if that while he can't _prevent _the accident, maybe he can allow the accident to proceed, but _save _all the cadets (including young Maat) in some way. I will have to go back and watch _The Menagerie _episodes again, or maybe someone here can confirm: is it established canon that some cadets die in the accident?



The accounts that I've read seem to indicate that Pike got out "all the cadets that survived" the initial incident, so clearly not all did survive.


----------



## Ryujin

Morrus said:


> Dang, that was good! I can't believe we have to wait until next year for more.
> 
> Loved the red TOS movie uniform.
> 
> Kirk? Was that a misdirection and he's not in s2? If so, they fooled us all!
> 
> Scotty's voice. No McCoy, Sulu, or Checkov though.
> 
> Poor Number One.
> 
> As an aside, I am starting to dislike the copy/paste starship fleet all warping in at the same time thing. It happened in Picard, it happened in Orville, it's happened here. It keeps happening. I just don't think it looks very good and also, presumably when ships are rushing there from all different locations and distance, how come they all time their arrival to the same second? Do they meet up before, wait till they're all together, then leave together?
> 
> (In this case it was OK, it was a single fleet of mining drones which was presumably already together, but in Picard and Orville it wasn't).



From previous shows it seems that they generally go to a marshalling location, and then proceed to the final destination. For example when Starfleet intercepted the Borg, on their way to Earth, they rallied at Wolf 359.


----------



## Hex08

Balance of Terror!!!! My all-time favorite Star Trek episode. This was a really cool take on it, including some of the scenes and dialog being identical, or close to, to the original episode. My favorite bit was that it showed while there can be different command styles, all valid and worthwhile, some styles are better in some situations. Pike is more a man of peace and explorer where Kirk is more aggressive and a risk-taker. In this case, Kirk's style turned out to be the one that worked.

Spock realizing that Pike is choosing to sacrifice himself, not only for others but also for Spock specifically, goes a long way towards explaining Spock's behavior in The Menagerie.

And once again, Chapel gave a great scene. When she was talking to Pike in sickbay about Spock you could just hear the sorrow and compassion dripping off of her. For a character I was initially unsure of Jess Bush has made me love her.


----------



## Morrus

Hex08 said:


> Spock realizing that Pike is choosing to sacrifice himself, not only for others but also for Spock specifically, goes a long way towards explaining Spock's behavior in The Menagerie.



Yep. That debt he owes now makes his behaviour make much more sense. I was always a little dubious about the way he acted.


----------



## Stalker0

Morrus said:


> presumably when ships are rushing there from all different locations and distance, how come they all time their arrival to the same second? Do they meet up before, wait till they're all together, then leave together?



In a situation where you possibly entering a battle, coming in "formation" makes plenty of sense. I assume they all adjust their warp speeds to ensure a simultaneous arrival. Considering all the other crazy things starships can do, this seems like a fairly minor thing.


----------



## Vael

Hex08 said:


> Balance of Terror!!!! My all-time favorite Star Trek episode. This was a really cool take on it, including some of the scenes and dialog being identical, or close to, to the original episode. My favorite bit was that it showed while there can be different command styles, all valid and worthwhile, some styles are better in some situations. Pike is more a man of peace and explorer where Kirk is more aggressive and a risk-taker. In this case, Kirk's style turned out to be the one that worked.




I was reminded of the Q&A Short Trek, where Una says that Pike: _views resorting to force as an admission of failure. _It's an interesting take that doesn't demean Pike, it's just ... as a Captain, is your first instinct to shoot or talk? Kirk and Sisko, they'd shoot. Most of the others would talk. Pike would, so would Picard, Janeway and Saru. Burnham, ironically, has evolved from a character that would've shot at the beginning of Discovery, to one that now I think wouldn't.


----------



## Thomas Shey

Ryujin said:


> From previous shows it seems that they generally go to a marshalling location, and then proceed to the final destination. For example when Starfleet intercepted the Borg, on their way to Earth, they rallied at Wolf 359.




If you've got a potential combat situation, while you want everyone there ASAP, having them come in piecemeal can be  really tactically bad.


----------



## Ryujin

Thomas Shey said:


> If you've got a potential combat situation, while you want everyone there ASAP, having them come in piecemeal can be  really tactically bad.



Absolutely. A few vessels would be overwhelmed and destroyed, piecemeal. That's why you do Battle Groups.


----------



## damiller

so, is SNW not in the Prime universe? I mean is it an alternate timeline?


----------



## Morrus

damiller said:


> so, is SNW not in the Prime universe? I mean is it an alternate timeline?



No, it's prime, isn't it? What would make it not so?

(this _episode_ was an alternate timeline vision created by the time crystal, but the show itself isn't)


----------



## Snarf Zagyg

Woah...

It surpassed my expectations. I was all like ... they went there??? And they pulled it off!

My couch-mate, SZK, will post a review at some point in the future. But right now SZK is just rocking back and forth whispering* "JAMES TIBERIUS KIRK .... JAMES TIBERIUS KIRK ...." over and over.

(Yeah, SZK even whispers in all-caps.)


----------



## damiller

Morrus said:


> No, it's prime, isn't it? What would make it not so?
> 
> (this _episode_ was an alternate timeline vision created by the time crystal, but the show itself isn't)



thank you,

that makes sense, I haven't watched the episode yet, but I thought in the thread there had been some talk about this not being in Prime Universe. Whew...I thought I missed something.

I am looking forward to the finale, this whole show has reenergized my Star Trek love!!


----------



## Hex08

damiller said:


> so, is SNW not in the Prime universe? I mean is it an alternate timeline?



Technically yes it's Prime but honestly, I sometimes feel like all of the Paramount+ series, except Lower Decks, are an alternate timeline. I feel like we have three timelines: TOS through Enterprise is the Prime timeline and then the Abramsverse and the P+ timelines (with Lower Decks likely being an exception and set in Prime). I know that's not the official stance but that's where my head canon goes sometimes.

Checkout this video from TrekCulture where they interview Doug Drexler.


----------



## Arilyn

An amazing finale. Can't wait for season 2.


----------



## Morrus

So is Kirk in s2 or not? Or was that all just a bluff so they could surprise us with him in this episode?


----------



## BookTenTiger

Morrus said:


> So is Kirk in s2 or not? Or was that all just a bluff so they could surprise us with him in this episode?



If you touch this time crystal, you will be able to see if Kirk is in Season 2... But you will also be able to see the horrible things that happen in the future due to the casting of the next season...


----------



## beancounter

I liked the season finale, but in general I think ST overuses time travel.


----------



## Stalker0

beancounter said:


> I liked the season finale, but in general I think ST overuses time travel.



Time Travel is in a lot of ways like Q, its practically "magic" compared to the other more technological things in ST. There are so many ways to time travel in ST, and some of them are nuts. Take this one....touch this "magic" crystal and see into the future.

But its well established in the lore at this point, just as telepathy exists but is never really explained in biological terms, its just a thing certain races can do. So we smile, nod, and move on.


----------



## BookTenTiger

One thing I really liked about this season finale was how it focused on the differences between captains.

I feel like there are endless discussions of the differences in captains between different _series. _But it's much more rare for those differences to be presented like this in a single episode! Also the fact that this wasn't a "good captain" vs "bad captain" comparison made it even more exciting and fun to watch. The two captains both had strategies coming from their own experiences and instincts... Getting to see those strategies play out was fantastic!

Man, what a great show!


----------



## Hex08

beancounter said:


> I liked the season finale, but in general I think ST overuses time travel.



I can understand the feeling but, on the other hand, it seems to be such an ingrained part of Trek that if we didn't have it occasionally it would be weird.


----------



## Rabulias

BookTenTiger said:


> One thing I really liked about this season finale was how it focused on the differences between captains.
> 
> I feel like there are endless discussions of the differences in captains between different _series. _But it's much more rare for those differences to be presented like this in a single episode! Also the fact that this wasn't a "good captain" vs "bad captain" comparison made it even more exciting and fun to watch. The two captains both had strategies coming from their own experiences and instincts... Getting to see those strategies play out was fantastic!



I watched the TOS episode "Balance of Terror" yesterday after watching the SNW finale, and it was interesting in that there is a moment where Kirk questions if he is making the right choices, weighed down by the high stakes.


----------



## Stalker0

I just watched Balance of Terror myself (never seen it before).

They did a good job mirroring the original epsiode, with maybe one exception. 

In the original, we had Officier Styles would was the gung ho (lets kill them) voice in the room, but he had family that died in the first romulan war and was a very "bigoted" individual himself. They kept that same voice through Ortegas in the new series, but without any of the backstory. I had felt that Ortegas' hostility was a bit much beyond what we normally had seen from the character, but now comparing it to the original show it felt even more.

That said, considering its like 9 years in the future for ortegas, that could just be how she is now, so its not a major plot issue.


----------



## Rabulias

Stalker0 said:


> In the original, we had Officier Styles would was the gung ho (lets kill them) voice in the room, but he had family that died in the first romulan war and was a very "bigoted" individual himself. They kept that same voice through Ortegas in the new series, but without any of the backstory. I had felt that Ortegas' hostility was a bit much beyond what we normally had seen from the character, but now comparing it to the original show it felt even more.



Yeah, I was surprised we did not get an Ortegas episode with more of her backstory this season, but with a large cast and only 10 episodes, there's only so much you can do. Hopefully season 2 will have a spotlight for her, and may provide insight into this Romulan animosity. I imagine it may be similar to Styles', but here's hoping it is something unique.

That said, the Styles storyline in "Balance of Terror" focused on his distrust of Spock, and how he warmed to Spock after the latter saved him and fired the phasers that ultimately disabled the bird of prey. SNW will need to find another angle on this with Ortegas if that becomes part of her backstory, since no one will know what Romulans look like until 2266.


Stalker0 said:


> That said, considering its like 9 years in the future for ortegas, that could just be how she is now, so its not a major plot issue.



7 years from current SNW setting to the flash forward (2259 to 2266). Still a long time.


----------



## Hex08

Stalker0 said:


> In the original, we had Officier Styles would was the gung ho (lets kill them) voice in the room, but he had family that died in the first romulan war and was a very "bigoted" individual himself. They kept that same voice through Ortegas in the new series, but without any of the backstory. I had felt that Ortegas' hostility was a bit much beyond what we normally had seen from the character, but now comparing it to the original show it felt even more.
> 
> That said, considering its like 9 years in the future for ortegas, that could just be how she is now, so its not a major plot issue.



While Ortegas did fill some of Styles role in the show I never felt she was intended to be the bigot Styles was, just that she was a war-hawk who saw the need to strike at the Romulans in retaliation for their actions. Honestly, of all of the characters in SNW Ortegas has had the least character development and add on to that, like you said, a nine-year time jump and who knows what's in character for her at that point.


----------



## damiller

Oh wow.

Everything I ever wanted in a Trek Show.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

This was a really nice season finale. 
I like how Spock subtly changed to be colder and less expressive (considering he already is rather cool and less expressive) in the future - kinda what he will always become. 
I don't know yet quite how I like the Kirk actor, but I am a bit optimistic - he has a unique challenge in this episode that he also has to play a Kirk with yet other experiences than Kelvin or Prime Kirk. The only thing one would have to go on is the backstory of Prime Kirk being a walking "stack of books" in the academy years, so a bit nerdy. 
Storywise, it's interesting that they basically have to make Pike be the less suited for the job, even though we know he's a great Captain - but in the end both Pike's and Kirk's decision in this scenario risked provoking a war. 

It was also really fun to see how they used similar lighting and shooting techniques as the original show - including the dramatic music on the Romulan reveal.


----------



## Janx

Holy cow was that a great episode.I just knew when we were when Pike appeared at the wedding. Balance of Terror.

I don't know how similar the actors were to the original (the base guy, and wedding couple). Kirk did a good job.

Even the ending line nailed it. "This isn't over."


----------



## Ryujin

Janx said:


> Holy cow was that a great episode.I just knew when we were when Pike appeared at the wedding. Balance of Terror.
> 
> I don't know how similar the actors were to the original (the base guy, and wedding couple). Kirk did a good job.
> 
> Even the ending line nailed it. "This isn't over."



I believe they switched up which of the couple died. In the original is was the male, Tomlinson, if memory serves. They did what other Star Trek shows have done, but they did it right; rehashing a TOS show. TNG did it several times and it just fell flat, for me at least.


----------



## Benjamin Olson

That was a spectacular episode for Pike. I would have liked to see more of the rest of the ensemble given larger roles given that its the season finale, but that's my only real complaint.

What a great opening season.



Hex08 said:


> Honestly, of all of the characters in SNW Ortegas has had the least character development and add on to that, like you said, a nine-year time jump and who knows what's in character for her at that point.



It's really odd that her biggest parts seem to have been in an alternative future and in the weird fantasy costume episode. They really should have found an opportunity to give her at least a featured supporting role in a B plot or something.


----------



## DJThunderGod

Just watched the finale back-to-back with _Balance Of Terror_.  One of the best of an excellent series.  I was actually surprised by how much smaller Kirk's _Enterprise_ is generally.  The bridge, Captain's quarters and the corridors are much tighter in the original.  One thing, though... why would vital bits of engineering control be under the Science Officer's station, and why was Spock repairing it when Scotty was right there?!  Moving that into a Jeffries Tube in the _SNW_ version made much more sense, even if the character doing the repairs didn't.

In terms of character, it was interesting to compare how different Kirk and Pike's approaches to the same problem were.

The real stroke of genius, though, was the use of dialogue from _Balance Of Terror_ in _A Quality Of Mercy_.  Perfectly pitched... and the musical stab when the appearance of the Romulans was revealed was perfection.

If they can keep this level of quality up for season 2 and beyond, I'll be there every step of the way.  I also hope Pike manages to figure out how to avoid the future we've seen without disrupting the stories we know too much.


----------



## Morrus

I kinda think the reputation of Kirk as some kind of gung-ho maverick is a bit of a retcon created by the Abrams film, where they turned him into Han Solo. He's never struck me as a maverick before. He's always been pretty by the book. When he stole the _Enterprise _in STIII, that was a big deal.


----------



## DJThunderGod

I don't know... it was revealed in _Wrath Of Khan_ that he'd beaten the _Kobyashi Maru_ test, and the only way he could have done that was by cheating.  He was also Starfleet's youngest ever captain at the point we first meet him in ST, so he's not strictly "by-the-book" at any point, but he's always more thoughtful in TOS than his later reputation.


----------



## Morrus

He always struck me as pretty professional and by the book. The Kobayashi Maru was the exception -- it was supposed to be surprising. He frequently did his duty when he didn't want to -- putting Spock on trial, for example. He is in no way a maverick.


----------



## DJThunderGod

Morrus said:


> He always struck me as pretty professional and by the book. The Kobayashi Maru was the exception -- it was supposed to be surprising. He frequently did his duty when he didn't want to -- putting Spock on trial, for example. He is in no way a maverick.



Agreed.  Jim Kirk was indeed never a "maverick".  He just had the ability (and the backup from the likes of Spock, Dr McCoy and Scotty) to circumvent problems and be a lot more flexible than his contemporaries.


----------



## billd91

DJThunderGod said:


> I don't know... it was revealed in _Wrath Of Khan_ that he'd beaten the _Kobyashi Maru_ test, and the only way he could have done that was by cheating.  He was also Starfleet's youngest ever captain at the point we first meet him in ST, so he's not strictly "by-the-book" at any point, but he's always more thoughtful in TOS than his later reputation.



Yeah, to be the youngest captain, he’s gotta be pretty active and dynamic in the things he does to attract that kind of attention to move up the ranks. He never struck me as “by the book”.


----------



## Arilyn

In the TOS episode Shore Leave, it is revealed that Kirk was very serious and bookish during his academy days. He loosens up but is still very dedicated to his ship and crew. I think the womanizing maverick comes from 1960s tv and less from Roddenberry's vision of Kirk. 

He does think outside the box, which is why he can beat Spock at 3d chess.


----------



## Morrus

billd91 said:


> Yeah, to be the youngest captain, he’s gotta be pretty active and dynamic in the things he does to attract that kind of attention to move up the ranks. He never struck me as “by the book”.



Quite the opposite. He’s got to be pretty by the book to be appointed as a captain, especially the youngest one. No admiral ever said “hey that guy’s really young and reckless and disobeys all the orders, let’s encourage that behaviour and give him our flagship!”


----------



## billd91

Morrus said:


> Quite the opposite. He’s got to be pretty by the book to be appointed as a captain, especially the youngest one. No admiral ever said “hey that guy’s really young and reckless and disobeys all the orders, let’s encourage that behaviour and give him our flagship!”



He doesn’t have to be reckless or disobey orders to not be “by the books”. He’s gotta be creative and effective. There are going to be LEGIONS of officers who are “by the book”. None of that is distinctive. Something has to distinguish Kirk other than being as conventional as everyone else.


----------



## Mort

billd91 said:


> He doesn’t have to be reckless or disobey orders to not be “by the books”. He’s gotta be creative and effective. There are going to be LEGIONS of officers who are “by the book”. None of that is distinctive. Something has to distinguish Kirk other than being as conventional as everyone else.




Keep in mind, in TOS, he was the youngest Starfleet captain ever AT 35. Meaning it still would have taken 13-14 years (checked the timeline, it took 10 - which is REALLY fast but believable).

The movies made it ridiculous, because he goes straight from the brig to being the captain. Right out of the academy. Abrams REALLY changed that around, and IMO not for the better.


----------



## billd91

Mort said:


> Keep in mind, in TNG, he was the youngest Starfleet captain ever AT 35. Meaning it still would have taken 13-14 years (checked the timeline, it took 10 - which is REALLY fast but believable).
> 
> The movies made it ridiculous, because he goes straight from the brig to being the captain. Right out of the academy. Abrams REALLY changed that around, and IMO not for the better.



Abrams really doesn’t care much about time and space.


----------



## Janx

billd91 said:


> He doesn’t have to be reckless or disobey orders to not be “by the books”. He’s gotta be creative and effective. There are going to be LEGIONS of officers who are “by the book”. None of that is distinctive. Something has to distinguish Kirk other than being as conventional as everyone else.



I think there's a disconnect on what Morrus and you mean by "by the book"

To some folks, it means not running an organization by the standards set forth by HR and the Process and Policy Guideline directives.

I think that's what Morrus means.  To which I agree. Kirk ran his ship in a typical standard way.

He didn't solve problems conventionally though. He would seek dialogue when it was expected he'd shoot.

Unconventional tactics/problem solving isn't the same as not being "by the book"


----------



## Thomas Shey

I think that the best way to think about it is when Kirk had a routine problem he'd handle it in a routine way, because that's what a proper Starfleet officer of his rank would do.  But he had a whole lot of non-routine problems, and when those occurred he'd use considerable outside-the-box thinking, some of which might border on or actually go outside of possible regulations on the subject, and in that fashion he was viewed as distinctive in ways that I suspect were viewed as more positive than negative, but not lacking in negative.  But of course during that period with Starfleet, running into things that the rules didn't seem to really engage with properly was probably much more common than later, given how exploration-oriented that period of Star Trek was.


----------



## Hex08

DJThunderGod said:


> Just watched the finale back-to-back with _Balance Of Terror_.  One of the best of an excellent series.  I was actually surprised by how much smaller Kirk's _Enterprise_ is generally.  The bridge, Captain's quarters and the corridors are much tighter in the original.



This is one of my few gripes about SNW, more of a nitpick really. While I like the design of the ship, I think it's too big (I think I mentioned this already upthread), at least it's interior based on the size of the bridge and other rooms we have seen. From the exterior I really like the redesign.


----------



## Morrus

Hex08 said:


> This is one of my few gripes about SNW, more of a nitpick really. While I like the design of the ship, I think it's too big (I think I mentioned this already upthread), at least it's interior based on the size of the bridge and other rooms we have seen. From the exterior I really like the redesign.



That's more of a budget thing, though. Those ships _are_ big. Bigger than a modern aircraft carrier, but with a 10th of the crew. They should have lots of space, and if they'd had more money in the 1960s I'm sure they would have. There's some big spaces in the TOS movies when they had more money.


----------



## Hex08

I fall on the side of Kirk not being a by-the-book kind of Captain. Not that he was a total maverick, but he was willing to do what he thought was right regardless of the rules. When the situation called for it I think he violated orders more frequently than other Captains. Based on this Memory Alpha article about the Prime Directive someone on Reddit put together a chart comparing TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY breaches of the Prime Directive. TOS led with twelve and it only ran for three seasons compared to the other three that ran for seven. I didn't verify the work in the Reddit post but it seems about right to me.


----------



## Ryujin

Hex08 said:


> I fall on the side of Kirk not being a by-the-book kind of Captain. Not that he was a total maverick, but he was willing to do what he thought was right regardless of the rules. When the situation called for it I think he violated orders more frequently than other Captains. Based on this Memory Alpha article about the Prime Directive someone on Reddit put together a chart comparing TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY breaches of the Prime Directive. TOS led with twelve and it only ran for three seasons compared to the other three that ran for seven. I didn't verify the work in the Reddit post but it seems about right to me.



_I should apologize for the uncharacteristic text wall._

There's some debate on what the Prime Directive actually entails, and if it meant the same thing right down the line. Originally it was about not interfering with the natural development of cultures, that were presumed to not be spacefaring themselves. Over the years people have folded into that the concept of not interfering with the internal matters of an advanced culture which was part of the Articles of Federation, and not the Prime Directive. The internal politics of member worlds were their own issue.

In TOS Kirk was generally dealing with a situation in which someone else had already messed with a less advanced culture, leaving him to pick up the pieces.

"A Private Little War" - The Klingons were supplying the villagers with firearms, before the Enterprise arrived.

"Patterns of Force" - Cultural observer John Gill started the Nazi movement in order to help in his own survival, by stabilizing the planet's society. The Enterprise crew had to undo the damage.

"The Omega Glory" - Captain Tracey had already mowed down thousands of Hill People with a phaser and messed with the local culture, by effectively making himself a warlord.

"A Taste of Armageddon" - Eminiar 7 was already a spacefaring culture, aware of others, who chose to be insular and kill each other. They went to war with the Enterprise and Kirk fought back.

"Bread and Circuses" - Merchant Marine Captian Merik told the legate(?), Claudius, about The Federation. Another mess for Kirk and company to clean up.

I'll certainly concede that the following were direct violations of the Prime Directive:

"The Feeders of Vaal" - For better or worse, the Feeders chose to worship a machine at some point.

"Return of the Archons" - Once again, for better or worse, a society chose to let a machine rule over them. It got logicked to death.


----------



## Hex08

Ryujin said:


> _I should apologize for the uncharacteristic text wall._
> 
> There's some debate on what the Prime Directive actually entails, and if it meant the same thing right down the line. Originally it was about not interfering with the natural development of cultures, that were presumed to not be spacefaring themselves. Over the years people have folded into that the concept of not interfering with the internal matters of an advanced culture which was part of the Articles of Federation, and not the Prime Directive. The internal politics of member worlds were their own issue.
> 
> In TOS Kirk was generally dealing with a situation in which someone else had already messed with a less advanced culture, leaving him to pick up the pieces.
> 
> "A Private Little War" - The Klingons were supplying the villagers with firearms, before the Enterprise arrived.
> 
> "Patterns of Force" - Cultural observer John Gill started the Nazi movement in order to help in his own survival, by stabilizing the planet's society. The Enterprise crew had to undo the damage.
> 
> "The Omega Glory" - Captain Tracey had already mowed down thousands of Hill People with a phaser and messed with the local culture, by effectively making himself a warlord.
> 
> "A Taste of Armageddon" - Eminiar 7 was already a spacefaring culture, aware of others, who chose to be insular and kill each other. They went to war with the Enterprise and Kirk fought back.
> 
> "Bread and Circuses" - Merchant Marine Captian Merik told the legate(?), Claudius, about The Federation. Another mess for Kirk and company to clean up.
> 
> I'll certainly concede that the following were direct violations of the Prime Directive:
> 
> "The Feeders of Vaal" - For better or worse, the Feeders chose to worship a machine at some point.
> 
> "Return of the Archons" - Once again, for better or worse, a society chose to let a machine rule over them. It got logicked to death.



As I said in original post I didn't bother to verify the info and now that I have read the Memory Alpha article more closely I think I misinterpreted what the Reddit post was getting at. I don't think it was supporting how often Kirk violated the Prime Directive, I think it was how frequently it was violated in the various series as a whole. As you point out other members of the Federation broke the Prime Directive and sometime Kirk had to step in to fix the problem. That said, sometimes the fix isn't a great one and Kirk had to follow his conscience to come up with a solution, such as "A Private Little War" where he risks escalating the violence by arming one side to match the other (a Vietnam War allegory) which is still problematic. I think Kirk even acknowledges in in log that he is violating orders when he decides to make contact.

The more I think about it, Kirk as a rulebreaker doesn't really become a thing until the movies. When he does break rules in the TV show (Amok Time for example) they are reasons we can easily empathize with and they are not all that common.


----------



## Ryujin

Hex08 said:


> As I said in original post I didn't bother to verify the info and now that I have the Memory Alpha article more closely I think I misinterpreted what the Reddit post was getting at. I don't think it was supporting how often Kirk violated the Prime Directive, I think it was how frequently it was violated in the various series as a whole. As you point out other members of the Federation broke the Prime Directive and sometime Kirk had to step in to fix the problem. That said, sometimes the fix isn't a great one and Kirk had to follow his conscience to come up with a solution, such as "A Private Little War" where he risks escalating the violence by arming one side to match the other (a Vietnam War allegory) which is still problematic. I think Kirk even acknowledges in in log that he is violating orders when he decides to make contact.
> 
> The more I think about it, Kirk as a rulebreaker doesn't really become a thing until the movies. When he does break rules in the TV show (Amok Time for example) they are reasons we can easily empathize with and they are not all that common.



The 'fixes' were definitely not optimal, at times. "A Private Little War" feels very much like a direct jab at both the Korean War, the Vietnam War, and every proxy conflict that occurred in the last half of the last century. Kirk ultimately seems to have done what he did for personal reasons, rather than ones of command imperative, however, he did stop short of giving his friend overwhelming power to respond. Keep pace. Don't set out to 'win' the war.

Yes, I would say that Rogue Kirk is a definite product of the movies. The only things we know of him from TOS are that he was rather bookish, in the Academy, and that he's somewhat of an over-achiever.


----------



## Stalker0

Morrus said:


> I kinda think the reputation of Kirk as some kind of gung-ho maverick is a bit of a retcon created by the Abrams film, where they turned him into Han Solo. He's never struck me as a maverick before. He's always been pretty by the book. When he stole the _Enterprise _in STIII, that was a big deal.



Well in the very episode we are discussing, the balance of terror..... he directly disobeys a key order to go into the neutral zone. Even after he literally spends time quoting to the crew that, "the rule is absolutely immutable.... we are expendable compared to this order".

So...yeah I can't see him called "by the book"


----------



## Umbran

Morrus said:


> Do they meet up before, wait till they're all together, then leave together?




Yep.  Having a rendezvous point to collect units before going into battle is a pretty standard tactic, even in the real world - if units show up at a battle one by one, they can get picked off individually by the forces present.  You want to move in all at once to prevent that.


----------



## Umbran

Stalker0 said:


> They kept that same voice through Ortegas in the new series, but without any of the backstory. I had felt that Ortegas' hostility was a bit much beyond what we normally had seen from the character, but now comparing it to the original show it felt even more.




With respect, we have seen Ortegas trigger happy all season.  Even in the fantasy episode, Ortegas is the one most interested in skewering people with a sword.


----------



## Stalker0

Umbran said:


> With respect, we have seen Ortegas trigger happy all season.  Even in the fantasy episode, Ortegas is the one most interested in skewering people with a sword.



With even more respect, ignoring the fantasy episode (as the characters were not themselves we can't use it as a frame of reference, hehe or else L'ann is going to look very different), while Ortegas has sometimes been assertive and even aggressive, she's never really been trigger happy, and never been belligerent to the point where the captain had to have her stand down. In fact, there have been scenes where she was the reluctant one, often double checking the captain's orders (are you sure you want to go in there) kind of thing.

There was clear anger in this episode we had not seen before. Now I'm not saying its unjustified, it just felt a little off compared to episodes before, we have never seen her get to that point, and I never really understood why. Was she just so distraught and angry about losing the starbases (which would be very understandable), was there some backstory there with Romulans we are unaware of? Is it simply that older Ortegas is an angrier, more belligerent person?

There are several reasons to explain why Ortegas might be angry, again I would never say it wasn't justified, I just wanted to understand better what was driving her character.


----------



## Umbran

Stalker0 said:


> ...while Ortegas has sometimes been assertive and even aggressive, she's never really been trigger happy...




Beyond assertive and aggressive - they're _always_ suggesting the ship go into combat.  Very "shoot first ask questions later"



Stalker0 said:


> ...and never been belligerent to the point where the captain had to have her stand down.




Well, for everything that happens, there must be a first time for it, no?


----------



## Stalker0

Umbran said:


> Well, for everything that happens, there must be a first time for it, no?



Sure, but what was it about that scenario that made it the first time, that's what I was curious about. Aka what is driving the character of ortegas?

I just want to understand her character better is all.


----------



## Blackrat

I loved the last episode. Had to watch Balance of Terror immediately after and noticed how they used a lot of the original dialogue.

I have two points of disappointment though. Uhura should have sported the classic hairstyle (although I did appreciate the earrings being similar), and the Romulan Commander should have been played by James Frain…


----------



## Umbran

Stalker0 said:


> Sure, but what was it about that scenario that made it the first time, that's what I was curious about. Aka what is driving the character of ortegas?




I don't know that one needs more than anger and fear of impending war with an enemy that has major tactical advantages and a history of destructive aggression to explain the observed behavior.   YMMV.


----------



## Maxperson

Morrus said:


> He always struck me as pretty professional and by the book. The Kobayashi Maru was the exception -- it was supposed to be surprising. He frequently did his duty when he didn't want to -- putting Spock on trial, for example. He is in no way a maverick.



He broke the prime directive several times. In Star Trek IV when Kirk is put on trial, they say he violated 9 directives, but list only 6.  In Amok Time he straight out defies orders in order to save Spock. In A Private Little War Kirk again defies Starfleet orders, even noting that he is doing so in his log.  And there's a bunch more.  He obeyed regulations and orders unless he felt he knew better and the situation required him to violate those orders or regulations.


----------



## Maxperson

I love the season finale.  When old Pike appeared and told young Pike that he avoided death and it was a disaster, I immediately thought, "It's because Kirk didn't take over and there must have been a war.  ::gasp:: Romulans!!"  Then he appeared at the wedding and it was on!


----------



## Stalker0

My one issue with the premise of the final episode.

Ok, we have established that Pike being captain of the enterprise later in life is bad....got it. So....why not retire? I mean he started the season basically retired, just save himself and go live a quiet life in a cabin. They establish this concept that Pike has to die, but don't really back that up.


----------



## tomBitonti

Stalker0 said:


> My one issue with the premise of the final episode.
> 
> Ok, we have established that Pike being captain of the enterprise later in life is bad....got it. So....why not retire? I mean he started the season basically retired, just save himself and go live a quiet life in a cabin. They establish this concept that Pike has to die, but don't really back that up.



They patch that up by remarking that every time Pike saves himself Spock dies.  Apparently the Klingon monks looked over such futures.
Tom B


----------



## BookTenTiger

tomBitonti said:


> They patch that up by remarking that every time Pike saves himself Spock dies.  Apparently the Klingon monks looked over such futures.
> Tom B



At Pike's retirement party on the ranch Spock trips and falls on a rusty rake.


----------



## Morrus

tomBitonti said:


> They patch that up by remarking that every time Pike saves himself Spock dies.  Apparently the Klingon monks looked over such futures.
> Tom B



Yeah, there's no way around it. If Pike doesn't go through with it, Spock suffers it instead.

Thus the whole 'I owe you a debt' conversation, and Spock's motivations in _The Menagerie_ finally making sense!


----------



## Mort

Maxperson said:


> He broke the prime directive several times. In Star Trek IV when Kirk is put on trial, they say he violated 9 directives, but list only 6.  In Amok Time he straight out defies orders in order to save Spock. In A Private Little War Kirk again defies Starfleet orders, even noting that he is doing so in his log.  And there's a bunch more.  He obeyed regulations and orders unless he felt he knew better and the situation required him to violate those orders or regulations.




Plus, to the time cop guys (when they show up on Deep Space Nine) Kirk's name is practically a swear word.

Kirk _knew_ the book inside and out -but, as you said, he violated it whenever he thought his way was better.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg

Mort said:


> Plus, to the time cop guys (when they show up on Deep Space Nine) Kirk's name is practically a swear word.
> 
> Kirk _knew_ the book inside and out -but, as you said, he violated it whenever he thought his way was better.




To Kirk, rules were like the regulation Starfleet uniform.

Sometimes* ... you just need to break them.








*Sometimes being approximately 50% of all episodes.


----------



## Ryujin

Snarf Zagyg said:


> To Kirk, rules were like the regulation Starfleet uniform.
> 
> Sometimes* ... you just need to break them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Sometimes being approximately 50% of all episodes.



duhDuhDUHDUHDUHDUHDUHDuhDAHDahdah!


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Mort said:


> Plus, to the time cop guys (when they show up on Deep Space Nine) Kirk's name is practically a swear word.
> 
> Kirk _knew_ the book inside and out -but, as you said, he violated it whenever he thought his way was better.



Well, that seems to describe every Captain character we spend any amount of time with, though. Pike, Picard, Sisko, Janeway... 

And I think Starfleet is okay with that, because they know their handbook is a good start, but you don't know what you'll meet out there and you have to adapt. If you violate the handbook because you didn't know better, bad, you violated the handbook because it didn't fit the scenario.

Hunting that Romulan Bird of Prey in _Balance of Terror_ was also a perfect example - Kirk asked for permission, but he didn't get a response by Starfleet in time due to the distance. Their response - after the dust cloud had already been spread wide - was to give him authority to hunt that ship down.


----------



## Umbran

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Hunting that Romulan Bird of Prey in _Balance of Terror_ was also a perfect example - Kirk asked for permission, but he didn't get a response by Starfleet in time due to the distance. Their response - after the dust cloud had already been spread wide - was to give him authority to hunt that ship down.




"Look, my fellow Admirals, we know our orders can't reach Kirk before he has to act.  He knows it.  He's going to do whatever he darned well pleases.  Given that, we might as well authorize what we know he's going to do anyway.  Saves us the trouble of court martial, if you ask me."


----------



## Zardnaar

Watching it now. We were watching 15 seasons of Stargate SG1 and Atlantis. 

 Holy crap a Star Trek show with a good season 1 what is this madness!!! Up to episode 8.


----------



## Henadic Theologian

Tied with DS9 & Lower Decks for the best Star Trek.


----------



## Zardnaar

Henadic Theologian said:


> Tied with DS9 & Lower Decks for the best Star Trek.




 DS9 is my favorite trek (non trekkie).


----------



## Maxperson

Zardnaar said:


> DS9 is my favorite trek (non trekkie).



DS9 comes in at #4 for me, but only because I really like the episodic exploration, go where no man has gone before type Treks.  So #1 for me is the original Star Trek, then Strange New Worlds, then Next Generation, and then DS9.


----------



## Zardnaar

Maxperson said:


> DS9 comes in at #4 for me, but only because I really like the episodic exploration, go where no man has gone before type Treks.  So #1 for me is the original Star Trek, then Strange New Worlds, then Next Generation, and then DS9.




 I thought TNG was a bit pants. There's a few good episodes eg Borg/Q stuff but there's a lot of filler and crap. 

 Haven't seen ToS since I was a kid so can't really rate it fairly. The old movies are 50/50 kinda but haven't seen a few since early 90's. Well the movies are kinda 50/50 not just the old ones.

 TNG didn't even hit 50/50 for me and I don't get the big deal about Picard. 

 Sisco is a bit bombastic perhaps but I liked him a lot.


----------



## Thomas Shey

Its hard to assess TOS out of context; it carries a lot of baggage of the period it was made in, and by some budgetary issues.  There were some absolute stinkers and some really brilliant episodes, but there's a lot of noise that can make people have trouble getting to the point where they can assess them fairly.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Maybe it's because of the order I watched these things, but my thoughts can easily be summed up as "It's not a patch on _The Orville_".


----------



## Ryujin

Just had to throw this in. One of my friends doing his best Not Anson Mount for an upcoming comedy sketch web series.

_EDIT_ - The guy playing the Andorian is also a friend and the two in blue play off against each other incredibly well. I don't know the third in back, personally, but he does some great work.


----------



## Rabulias

Mild spoilers for _Strange New Worlds_ season 2, and minor spoiler for _Lower Decks_ (along with spoilers for _The Boys _season 3):


Spoiler












						‘Star Trek: Lower Decks’ Star Jack Quaid Talks ‘Strange New Worlds’ Crossover and Taking the Cast of ‘The Boys’ Spinoff ‘Gen V’ to Brunch
					

SPOILER ALERT: The final question in this interview includes a spoiler for the Season 3 finale of “The Boys.” “I love Boimler,” says “Star Trek: Lower Decks” sta…




					variety.com
				



Not sure how this will work, but Frakes being onboard gives me some confidence. Maybe this will be season 2's "The Elysian Kingdom."


----------



## Aeson

Carol Kane is joining the cast as an engineer. I heard a Scotty impression in the season finale. I wondered if we might see him. 









						Star Trek: Strange New Worlds Adds a Comedy Legend to Its Cast
					

Oscar nominee Carol Kane is joining season 2 of the Paramount+ series in a recurring role.




					gizmodo.com


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Aeson said:


> Carol Kane is joining the cast as an engineer. I heard a Scotty impression in the season finale. I wondered if we might see him.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Star Trek: Strange New Worlds Adds a Comedy Legend to Its Cast
> 
> 
> Oscar nominee Carol Kane is joining season 2 of the Paramount+ series in a recurring role.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gizmodo.com



We might see him as an assistant engineer. Makes sense that even if he's on the ship, he doesn't need to be Chief yet.


----------



## MarkB

FitzTheRuke said:


> We might see him as an assistant engineer. Makes sense that even if he's on the ship, he doesn't need to be Chief yet.



He's probably still chilling on that ice planet after he mislaid Admiral Archer's beagle.


----------



## Ryujin

There's a clip out from season 2.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Ryujin said:


> There's a clip out from season 2.



I can't help but smile and yet feel for poor Ortega's cruel fate...


----------



## Henadic Theologian

Aeson said:


> Carol Kane is joining the cast as an engineer. I heard a Scotty impression in the season finale. I wondered if we might see him.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Star Trek: Strange New Worlds Adds a Comedy Legend to Its Cast
> 
> 
> Oscar nominee Carol Kane is joining season 2 of the Paramount+ series in a recurring role.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gizmodo.com




 I absolutely loved her in Scrooged and Two and Half Men, this is delightful news.


----------



## Ryujin

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I can't help but smile and yet feel for poor Ortega's cruel fate...



Just being too good at your job to ever be away from it. It sucks. Everyone else gets to go to the conventi... I mean on the away missions.


----------



## Henadic Theologian

Ryujin said:


> Just being too good at your job to ever be away from it. It sucks. Everyone else gets to go to the conventi... I mean on the away missions.




 You just know there is going to be acrazy twist that sets her on a crazy adventure in that episode.


----------



## Ryujin

Henadic Theologian said:


> You just know there is going to be acrazy twist that sets her on a crazy adventure in that episode.



I sure hope that she's the only one who can make the flight down to rescue them


----------



## MarkB

Ryujin said:


> Just being too good at your job to ever be away from it. It sucks. Everyone else gets to go to the conventi... I mean on the away missions.



It's tough being the designated driver.


----------



## Mallus

Simka has come a long way, baby.

(really did not expect that casting announcement, but she’s great, so good)


----------



## Rabulias

Henadic Theologian said:


> You just know there is going to be acrazy twist that sets her on a crazy adventure in that episode.



Agreed. I am still miffed that we did not get an Ortegas-focused episode in season 1, or at least more about her backstory. Here's hoping this portends both.


----------

