# Special Conversion Thread: Plants



## Shade (Mar 15, 2010)

With Spring fast approaching here in the USA, I thought it was time to tackle some of the unconverted plants again.  Since most of the remaining unconverted plants hail from Dragon Magazine and the 2e Monstrous Compendiums, rather than hijack those threads, I figured I'd start another.  We might still convert some plants in other threads, too.


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## Shade (Mar 15, 2010)

*Giant Bladderwort*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Stagnant swamps or marshes
NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 6
HIT DICE: 8
THAC0: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 11-20
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: See text
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See text
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See text
SIZE: L to G
MORALE: Steady (12)
XP VALUE: 4,000

The giant bladderwort is a rootless, free-floating water plant found drifting just beneath the surface of stagnant waters in deep marshes or swamps. It may grow in combination with other marsh plants in huge floating mats, which appear solid but through which even small animals quickly sink. The greenish-brown stem may grow up to 50’ or more if conditions are right, and it usually has 1d10 + 10 traps, each about 4’ across, attached to its feathery green branches.

Combat: The traps are translucent bladders, each containing a partial vacuum, that lie beneath the water. Due to the slightly greater pressure of the water outside the trap, the sides of each bladder are slightly concave around the middle, giving it a pinched-in look. Water is kept out by a flap at the mouth of the trap, which is sealed with a weak glue and acts as a valve. Long guide hairs and shorter trigger hairs surround the mouth of the bladder. When the trigger hairs are touched, the valve opens inward and the victim is swept along with some water into the chamber. The flap reseals and the water is absorbed (to be expelled later), restoring the partial vacuum. The triggering, activation, and closure of a trap all take place in less than a second. Digestive fluids then flood the chamber, causing 1-4 hp damage per round. Due to the very small quantity of air inside the bladder, the victim suffocates in 1-6 rounds unless assistance is given.

A small-size creature (4’ or less) is wholly engulfed, while a larger one may have only part of its body caught in the bladder, which will still close and seal its flap, doing damage to the victim thereafter. In such cases, DMs should roll percentile die to determine what area of the victim’s body has been caught (1-20 right arm; 21-40 left arm; 41-60 head and upper torso; 61-80 right leg; 81-100 left leg). A character caught may attempt to break free by successfully rolling his chance to bend bars against the trap’s seal or by attacking the trap itself.

Each trap has 2 HD; the body of the plant has 8 HD. Damage inflicted on traps will not kill the body of the plant. Outside attacks on a trap holding prey inflict half the damage on the prey within and half on the trap itself. Victims wholly engulfed by the trap may attack only with teeth, claws, or daggers.

Habitat/Ecology: Bladderworts usually reproduce by pollination. Their purple and white flowers rise just above the water on narrow stems. During the winter, this plant forms green buds, called turions, that sink to the bottom of the marsh and rise up again in spring to develop into mature plants. If a bladder can be wholly raised above water (by itself, it weighs 50 lbs.), it collapses with a loud popping (it cuts off here…I’m guessing “sound”).

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #167  (1991).


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## Shade (Mar 16, 2010)

Make it somewhat ambulatory, or simplify it to a hazard?


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## Cleon (Mar 16, 2010)

Shade said:


> Make it somewhat ambulatory, or simplify it to a hazard?




Reads more like a hazard to me, since it's immobile (barring water currents) and is basically a "floating acid-filled pit-trap".


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## Rappy (Mar 17, 2010)

I agree with Cleon. Bladderworts are crazy-nasty, but they're more suitable as a hazard like pitcher plants.


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2010)

Anyone want to venture a first draft of this thing?  Hazards are a bit of a personal weakness.


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## Cleon (Mar 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Anyone want to venture a first draft of this thing?  Hazards are a bit of a personal weakness.




I'll have a shot at it. Give me an hour or three.


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## Cleon (Mar 17, 2010)

Okay, here's a first shot at it. Some of the numbers may need tweaking, but I think it covers everything:

EDIT: Oops, forgot to mention the drowning risk.

EDITED EDIT: Added how big the dang thing is.

*Giant Bladderwort (CR 1)
*A giant bladderwort is a rootless water plant found floating in stagnant marshes. These carnivorous plants float just below the surface of the water, appearing to be a harmless mat of vegetation. It requires a DC20 Spot or Knowledge (nature) check to notice the plant is dangerous. A typical giant bladderwort is between 20 and 30 feet across.

Giant bladderworts trap prey inside translucent bladders about 4 feet across, each plant has 1d10+10 such traps, each bladder-trap occupies a separate 5-foot square. The bladders contain a partial vacuum, as soon as a creature bumps into a bladder it pops open and the water rushing into the vacuum will suck all creatures with 5 feet of the bladder into the trap unless they succeed at a [*DC 15 Reflex save?*]. The plant then releases digestive enzymes that do 1d4 points of acid damage per round to all organic creatures (or objects) trapped by the bladder. Note that since the bladder is flooded with water, any air-breathing creature trapped within it also risks drowning.

A trapped creature can break free with a DC 20 Strength check, or cut their way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 10 points of damage to the bladder (AC 12, hardness 5). Once a creature exits, elastic action closes the hole; another trapped opponent must make their own escape.

Each bladder can trap 1 Medium-sized creature, 2 Small creatures, 8 Tiny creatures, 32 Diminutive creatures or 128 Fine creatures.

Each bladder can only trigger its trap once per day. It requires 24 hours for the trap to reseal and restore its partial vacuum after the plant finishes digesting any meal it has trapped.

Damage to the bladder-traps does not harm the plant, to kill a giant bladderwort its floating main body must be destroyed (AC 14, hardness 5, 40 hit points).


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## Shade (Mar 18, 2010)

Fantastic.  How about we make the save DC higher.  If it were an 8 HD creature with a Con score of 22 (like a tendriculous), the save DC would be 20.

Perhaps the CR should be a bit higher?


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## freyar (Mar 18, 2010)

I might go with a slightly higher CR (2?), but it looks pretty good.  Also, it seems weird to have both natural armor and hardness.


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## Cleon (Mar 19, 2010)

freyar said:


> I might go with a slightly higher CR (2?), but it looks pretty good.  Also, it seems weird to have both natural armor and hardness.




Well it's a weird monster converted by a weird character, so that's appropriate.

We can call the hardness "DR X/-" if it bothers you.

I stuck it in because its traps are its only means to damage opponents, so I didn't want them to be too easy to defeat.

I did think about giving the bladders a lower hardness than the main plant.

DR 3/- for the bladders, DR 5/- for the main body?

I'm also wondering about changing the "Once a creature exits, elastic  action closes the hole; another trapped opponent must make their own  escape." Since the original gave the bladders separate HD I wouldn't mind having it so a bladder releases all its captives once destroyed. 

I only left the "closing the hole" bit in because I used a  copy-and-paste of Swallow Whole as the basic. It doesn't really appeal  to me, to be honest, so I'd rather change it to a door model:

So, how about changing:




> A trapped creature can break free with a DC 20 Strength check, or cut  their way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 10  points of damage to the bladder (AC 12, hardness 5). Once a creature  exits, elastic action closes the hole; another trapped opponent must  make their own escape.





Into:




> Each bladder has a lid with AC 12, DR 3/- and 10 hit points, the bladder's lid can be broken open with a DC 20 Strength check or cut open by






> reducing the lid's hit points to zero (creatures trapped inside the bladder can only use light slashing or piercing weapon to cut their way free). Once a bladder's lid is forced open all creatures trapped inside can escape.


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## Cleon (Mar 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> Fantastic.  How about we make the save DC higher.  If it were an 8 HD creature with a Con score of 22 (like a tendriculous), the save DC would be 20.




I'd be fine with making it a higher DR. I was thinking of 18 or so.



Shade said:


> Perhaps the CR should be a bit higher?




The problem is that it's only an 8HD monster "at root", as far as interacting with its victims goes it's a bunch of 2HD monsters, each of which only does a measly 1d4 damage per round - and only to creatures foolish enough to blunder into them. Once the first PC or two are sucked in, any left outside would probably hack away at the thing from a safe position until it's dead, meaning it's pretty much a "one trick pony".


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## freyar (Mar 22, 2010)

It might be a one-trick pony, but it could be pretty deadly!  I'd bump the CR a little.

And, yes, I prefer DR to hardness.  Or else drop the natural armor and go with hardness.


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## Shade (Mar 22, 2010)

Yeah, let's go with DR and maybe CR 3?


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## freyar (Mar 23, 2010)

I'd be happier with that, too.


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## Cleon (Mar 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yeah, let's go with DR and maybe CR 3?




Well I guess I'd be alright increasing the CR to 3 provided we boost the acid damage. 1d4 per round is just embarrassing for a creature with that Challenge Rating. Maybe 1d4+4 or 1d6+6 acid?

I also added the line "It takes two weeks for the plant to  replace a destroyed bladder."

Together with the previous proposals, we've currently got:

*Giant  Bladderwort (CR 3)
*A giant bladderwort is a rootless  water plant found floating in stagnant marshes. These carnivorous plants float just below the surface of the  water, appearing to be a harmless mat of vegetation. It requires a DC20  Spot or Knowledge (nature) check to notice the plant is dangerous. A  typical giant bladderwort is between 20 and 30 feet across.

Giant bladderworts trap prey inside translucent bladders  about 4 feet across, each plant has 1d10+10 such traps, each  bladder-trap occupies a separate 5-foot square. The bladders contain a  partial vacuum, as soon as a creature bumps into a bladder it pops open  and the water rushing into the vacuum will suck all creatures with 5  feet of the bladder into the trap unless they succeed at a [*DC 18-20 Reflex save?*]. The plant then releases  digestive enzymes that do *1d6+6?* points of acid damage per round to all  organic creatures (or objects) trapped by the bladder. Note that since  the bladder is flooded with water, any air-breathing creature trapped  within it also risks drowning. A bladder can trap 1  Medium-sized creature, 2 Small creatures, 8 Tiny  creatures, 32 Diminutive creatures or 128 Fine creatures.
 
Each bladder has a lid with AC 12,  DR 3/- and 10 hit points, the bladder's lid can be broken open with a DC  20 Strength check or cut open by reducing the lid's hit points to  zero (creatures trapped inside the bladder can  only use light  slashing or piercing weapon to cut their way free). Once a bladder's lid is forced open all  creatures trapped inside can escape.

Each bladder can only trigger its trap once per day. It requires 24  hours for the trap to reseal its lid and restore its partial vacuum after the  plant finishes digesting any meal it has trapped. It takes two weeks for the plant to replace a destroyed bladder.

Damage to the bladder-traps does not harm the plant, to kill a giant  bladderwort its floating main body must be destroyed (AC 14, DR 5/-,  40 hit points).


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## freyar (Mar 24, 2010)

9.5 points of damage per round?  Sounds like a lot for a 3rd level character to deal with.  How about 1d8 per round?


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## Shade (Mar 25, 2010)

That's reasonable.

Added to Homebrews.

Are we satisfied and ready to move on?


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## freyar (Mar 25, 2010)

I'm ready.


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## Shade (Mar 25, 2010)

Here's the next one, which is quite similar, although I might be able to see this one as an actual monster since it makes an active attack roll...

*Giant Butterwort*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any bogs, marshes, or swamps
NO. APPEARING: 1-6
ARMOR CLASS: 7
HIT DICE: 5
THAC0: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: See text
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Dissolving, surprise
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
SIZE: M
MORALE: Average (10)
XP VALUE: 420

The giant butterwort grows in rosettes of 2-8 6’-long oblong leaves of pale yellow-green, having a greasy appearance and a faint, funguslike scent. The leaves of this plant rest flat against the ground and are difficult to see against the terrain ( -2 to victim’s roll for being surprised).

Combat: Anything walking over this plant’s leaves becomes stuck, due to the mucilage secreted by glands in the leaves. The plant then attempts to roll all of its leaves up and over its prey (attacking as per its hit dice), becoming a tight, leafy cocoon that fills with digestive fluid, causing 1-4 hp damage per round. Victims holding small, edged weapons when caught may cut themselves free by doing damage equal to half the total hit points of the plant. Attacks from outside inflict half the damage on the plant and half on the victim trapped inside. The mucilage may be neutralized with liberal quantities of alcohol.

Habitat/Ecology: One of the most adaptive of carnivorous plants, the giant butterwort is found from arctic to tropical areas, favoring acidic or alkaline bogs with moist to very wet soils.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #167 (1991).


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## freyar (Mar 25, 2010)

Rather than an attack, this seems like improved grab triggered by stumbling into it.  I think I'd probably go with this as a hazard, and pretty similar to the last one.


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2010)

Yeah, I see your point.

I'm not a big fan of hazards, so I think I sometimes try to make a monster when one isn't really there.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 27, 2010)

This seems pretty hazard-y to me too.


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## Cleon (Mar 27, 2010)

Shade said:


> That's reasonable.
> 
> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> Are we satisfied and ready to move on?




1d8 is fine by me, so we can go on to the next.


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## Cleon (Mar 27, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yeah, I see your point.
> 
> I'm not a big fan of hazards, so I think I sometimes try to make a monster when one isn't really there.




I sympathize with you, but it does look more like a hazard than a full monster as written.

We could jazz it up to make it a grappling Plant monster if you like.

Give it a decent strength to power 2-8 slam & grab attacks, followed by constriction with an acid kick.

Which would you lot prefer?


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## GrayLinnorm (Mar 27, 2010)

Monster.

I'd also like to see the giant pitcher plant converted.


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## freyar (Mar 29, 2010)

Well, I suppose it could be a (different looking) variant assassin vine.  But I still think I see these basically as traps, ie hazards.

Pitcher plant is good to do next!


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2010)

Let's hazardize 'em and see how they look.

Pitcher plant is on deck.


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## Cleon (Mar 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> Let's hazardize 'em and see how they look.
> 
> Pitcher plant is on deck.




OK, I'll give it a go...

*Giant Butterwort (CR X)*
A giant butterwort is a carnivorous plant that can be found growing in many environments, it favors waterlogged ground with acidic or alkaline soil. The plant is a rosette or long, flat leaves spread across a circle from 10 to 15 feet in diameter. The leaves blend into their surroundings, it requires a DC Y Spot check to notice a giant butterwort.

The leaves are coated in a powerful adhesive, any creature that steps on the leaves will find itself stuck fast unless it can make a  DC 20 Strength check to break free. If a giant butterwort plant feels the pressure of a creature between Tiny and Medium-sized standing upon it, the plant contracts its leaves into a tight ball around its prey; the victim is entitled to attempt a  Strength check to escape the adhesive before becoming trapped. A trapped victim is constricted for 1d4 bludgeoning damage plus 2 points of acid damage per round. Trapped victims can be freed by using light slashing or piercing weapons to sever the leaves (AC 13, hp 20) or by killing the plant by severing its stem (AC13, hp 40). Creatures trapped inside the plant's leaf-ball can not reach its stem.


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2010)

Excellent work!

DC 20 Spot check to notice, like the assassin vine?


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## freyar (Apr 1, 2010)

Looks great!  Agreed to DC 20 Spot.  CR 2 or 3?


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

I'd peg it at CR 2.


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## freyar (Apr 1, 2010)

Looks done!


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## Cleon (Apr 4, 2010)

I'd like to clean up a typo and a couple of bits of clumsy wording from the rough draft, but apart from that it looks done:

*Giant Butterwort (CR 2)*
A giant butterwort is a carnivorous plant that can be found growing in  many environments, it favors waterlogged ground with acidic or alkaline  soil. The plant is a rosette *of* long, flat leaves spread across a circle  from 10 to 15 feet in diameter. *A giant  butterwort's *leaves blend into their  surroundings, *requiring* a DC 20 Spot check to notice.

The leaves are coated in a powerful adhesive, any creature that steps on  the leaves will find itself stuck fast unless it can make a DC 20  Strength check to break free. If a giant butterwort plant feels the  pressure of a creature between Tiny and Medium size standing upon it,  the plant contracts its leaves into a tight ball around its prey; the  victim is entitled to attempt a Strength check to escape the adhesive  before becoming trapped. A trapped victim is constricted for 1d4  bludgeoning damage plus 2 points of acid damage per round. Trapped  victims can be freed by using light slashing or piercing weapons to  sever the leaves (AC 13, hp 20) or by killing the plant by severing its  stem (AC 13, hp 40). Creatures trapped inside the plant's leaf-ball can  not reach its stem.


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## Shade (Apr 5, 2010)

Updated.

Here's the pitcher plant...

*PITCHER PLANT, Giant*
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
NO. APPEARING: 2-8
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVE: Nil
HIT DICE: See below
% IN LAIR: 100%
TREASURE TYPE: J, K (10%)
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 grab
DAMAGE/ATTACK: See below
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Drowning; dissolving
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Non-
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L (5'-8' tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: VI/638

The most passive of all known carnivorous plants, the normally small-sized pitcher plant has sometimes evolved into a much larger and more aggressive creature, though it is still not as dangerous as others of its kind. The plant is shaped like a giant green vase made up of toughened base leaves tightly woven together with small vines. There is an opening at the top of the vase, and the plant is usually half to two-thirds full of rainwater.

A whiplike organ, about four inches thick, extends from the lip of the vase's mouth; this whip is 20 feet long and able to attack and coil about a creature (rolling to hit as a 6 HD monster), lift up to 80 lbs.,and drop the prey into the vase. The victim usually drowns in 3-6 rounds unless it can swim; even then, however, the plant releases acids into the water which do 1-4 points of damage per round to the victim until it is eventually killed and dissolved. The acids are not strong enough to harm metals except over very long periods of time, so a victims' money, armor, and weapons will often be found inside the vase. The plant detects nearby prey through a series of pressure-sensitive vines buried within a 10' radius around it. Only those creatures light enough to be lifted up will be attacked.

Rescuing victims trapped inside a pitcher plant can be difficult. If 12 hp of damage can be inflicted on the walls of the plant's vase, the acidic water will leak out, but the victim will still not be able to escape, since sharp spines grow along the inside walls of the plant and prevent all climbing attempts (unless the victim IS very determined, in which case 6-24 points of damage will be inflicted during the escape attempt, successful or not). If 48 hp of damage are inflicted on the walls of the plant, the vase will fall apart, and the victim may escape easily.

The plant has no hit dice as such, but will die if 100 hp of damage or more is inflicted on the vase.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #89 (1984).


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## GrayLinnorm (Apr 5, 2010)

For starters, the text says it attacks as a 6 HD monster, so shall we give it 6 hit dice?

And it should be a monster.

And we should handle drowning the same way we did for the giant venus-flytrap.


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## freyar (Apr 6, 2010)

GrayLinnorm said:


> For starters, the text says it attacks as a 6 HD monster, so shall we give it 6 hit dice?
> 
> And it should be a monster.
> 
> And we should handle drowning the same way we did for the giant venus-flytrap.



My thoughts exactly.


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2010)

Sounds like a plan.

Modify the giant venus fly-trap's abiliy scores slightly?

Fly-Trap: Str 21, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 6


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## freyar (Apr 6, 2010)

Usual mindless mental stats: Int -, Wis 10, Cha 1?

Maybe go Str 23, Dex 12, Con 12?

Get rid of the bites and add a tendril (I guess that's what we'd call it).  It definitely gets imp grab, but should we add a little tendril damage?


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

Here's how we handled the venus fly-trap's grabbing n' drowning mechanic:

Jaws (Ex): Each of a giant venus fly-trap's jaws may make a single bite attack each round. It a jaw hits with its bite attack, the fly-trap can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can attempt to swallow the foe the following round. A jaw enganged in a grapple cannot make a bite attack, but the giant venus fly-trap is not considered grappled. 

With each of its jaws, a giant venus fly-trap can try to swallow a single grabbed opponent of a smaller size than itself by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, the opponent takes 1d6+5 points of crushing damage plus 5 points of acid damage per round from the plant's fluids. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 10 points of damage to the jaws (AC 12), destroying that set of jaws (and dealing 5 points of damage to the fly-trap) in the process. 

An opponent not currently swallowed can attack a giant venus fly-trap's jaws with a sunder attempt as if they were weapons, but risks injuring the trapped victim (a 50% chance). A giant venus fly-trap's jaws have 10 hit points each. If a giant venus fly-trap is currently grappling a target with the jaw that is being attacked, it usually uses another jaw to make its attack of opportunity against the opponent making the sunder attempt. Severing one of a giant venus fly-trap's jaws deals 5 points of damage to the creature. The creature regrows severed or destroyed jaws in 1 week. A non-swallowed creature may also attempt to free the victim by grappling the fly-trap and succeeding on a second grapple check to open the jaws. 

Here's another somewhat similar ability...

Consume (Ex): As a free action, a black willow can create or close a 5-foot-square opening in its body. It can dump an adjacent flat-footed or helpless Medium or smaller creature into such an opening and tilt its limbs as necessary to slide the creature down the black willow’s hollow interior. A conscious creature is entitled to a single DC 23 Reflex save to grab the sides and climb out. In that same round on the black willow’s action, digestive sap rises from the roots and begins to fill the interior. All creatures inside take 1d4 points of acid damage. As the sap continues to fill the chamber, the acid damage increases by 1d4 each round (2d4 points of acid damage in the second round, 3d4 points in the third, and so on) up to a maximum of 10d4 acid damage per round. The acid completely destroys any creature that reaches -10 hit points, preventing any form of raising or resurrection that requires part of the corpse.

A creature in the interior can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 20 points of damage to the black willow’s interior (AC 15). Once the creature exits, the hole closes; another opponent inside must cut its own way out. Once all creatures inside the willow have escaped or been destroyed, the acid drains back into the roots at the same rate it filled the trunk cavity. A Huge black willow's interior can hold 4 Medium, 16 Small, 64 Tiny, or 256 Diminutive or smaller creatures. The save DC is Strength-based.


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## Cleon (Apr 6, 2010)

Reading this I'm not 100% convinced it shouldn't be a hazard. It may  make an attack roll with its "whip", but so does an arrow trap.

Still, I'm game to make it a full monster.



Shade said:


> Modify the giant venus fly-trap's abiliy scores slightly?
> 
> Fly-Trap: Str 21, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 6




*Strength 21* looks about right.

*Dexterity 12* seems too high for "The most passive of all known carnivorous plants". Maybe halve it to 6?

*Constitution 14* should probably be way higher. If an average specimen has 100 hit points. It would need a Con of 34-37 to get that many hit points with 6 Hit Dice. That seems way too high, so maybe we should fiddle it. Here are a couple of cheats we could use:

We could give it bonus Hit Points equal to a Construct?
 - 6 Plant Hit Dice, Con 24 and +30 bonus hp would give it 99 hit points.

We could give it a "half damage from weapons" SQ and around 50 hit points, so it effectively takes 100 hits to kill?
 - 6 Plant Hit Dice and Con 18-19 would give it 51 hit points.

Of those two, I prefer the "half damage" approach, since it's simpler.

*Intelligence 2* needs cutting to zero, since it's mindless.

*Wisdom 11* might as well stay.

*Charisma 6* seems rather high. I'd prefer Cha 3 like a Tendriculos.

Put that together and I propose:

*Giant Pitcher Plant:* Str 21, Dex 6, Con 18, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 3


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2010)

I'm OK with the proposed ability score adjustments.

A solid "no" to half damage from weapons, but I'd go for damage reduction 10/slashing like a treant. 

I don't think construct bonus hps make sense here either.

If we're really concerned about it having 100 hps (I'm not), we should just boost its HD.


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## Cleon (Apr 7, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'm OK with the proposed ability score adjustments.
> 
> A solid "no" to half damage from weapons, but I'd go for damage reduction 10/slashing like a treant.
> 
> ...




As you like.

I don't think they'd be as tough and woody as a treant, so I'd prefer DR 5/slashing.

What shall we do about trap/consume SA?

They've got a 20-foot reach "whip" with which they pull victims into their pitcher.

An Improved Grab melee attack followed by a modified Swallow Whole?

The Improved Grab is straightforward.

Modifying Swallow Whole to something closer to the giant pitcher plant's  special attack will create something quite a difference to  the "standard" Swallow Whole, so I think we'd better rename it. I like  "Drowning Vase".

How about the following:*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, a giant pitcher plant must hit with its tendril attack. It  can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can attempt to trap the foe in its drowning vase the  following round.*

Drowning Vase (Ex):* A giant pitcher plant can trap grabbed opponent of a smaller size than itself inside its vase-shaped body by making a successful grapple check. The vase is half-filled with water, so trapped creatures that can not swim may drown. The trapped creature takes *1d4* points of acid damage per round from the pitcher plant's digestive juices.
​A trapped creature can try to climb out by making two successive DC *X* Climb checks, but the inside of the vase is lined with sharp spines which inflicts *2d4* points of piercing damage for each Climb check that is attempted. A trapped creature can cut its way out by using a light  slashing or piercing weapon to reduce the plant's hit points to zero, which causes the entire vase to fall apart and release its contents. If the plant takes *12 *hit points of slashing or piercing damage the vase walls will be perforated, causing all the water inside to flow out; the swallowed creatures will then not risk drowning, but will continue to take acid damage.

A Large giant pitcher plant can trap 2 Medium, 8 Small, 32 Tiny, or  128 Diminutive or smaller opponents in its drowning vase.​


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## freyar (Apr 8, 2010)

The thing I never understood is that shouldn't it be possible to drown in the belly of some beast just as much as a pitcher plant? 

Rather than the Climb check, couldn't we just use a grapple check like regular Swallow Whole?  I'm also not sure you should have to kill the plant to cut your way out.  Hmm.  Couldn't we maybe just stick drowning into Swallow Whole?  I feel like we've done something similar before.


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## Shade (Apr 9, 2010)

freyar said:
			
		

> Couldn't we maybe just stick drowning into Swallow Whole? I feel like we've done something similar before.




It looks like you did it with your quelzarn.


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## Cleon (Apr 10, 2010)

freyar said:


> The thing I never understood is that shouldn't it be possible to drown in the belly of some beast just as much as a pitcher plant?
> 
> Rather than the Climb check, couldn't we just use a grapple check like regular Swallow Whole?  I'm also not sure you should have to kill the plant to cut your way out.  Hmm.  Couldn't we maybe just stick drowning into Swallow Whole?  I feel like we've done something similar before.




I was basically trying to keep the mechanics as close to the original as I could, expecting to then modify them to taste.

Also you destroy the vase at zero hit points not -10 so you don't have to kill the plant to break its vase.

I was thinking about changing it to the vase breaking when the plant's reduced to under 50% of its full hit points.


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## freyar (Apr 10, 2010)

Hmm, I thought we'd done that with some CC critters too.  Well, I like that approach!   Cleon, can I convince you to go with a more standard Swallow Whole?


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## Cleon (Apr 10, 2010)

freyar said:


> Hmm, I thought we'd done that with some CC critters too.  Well, I like that approach!   Cleon, can I convince you to go with a more standard Swallow Whole?




Well you can try, but I'm not making any promises.


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## freyar (Apr 12, 2010)

Did I have any luck with that? I think most of the original mechanics fit well with swallow whole, and the common ability might be a little more familiar for a DM to adjudicate.


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## Cleon (Apr 12, 2010)

freyar said:


> Did I have any luck with that? I think most of the original mechanics fit well with swallow whole, and the common ability might be a little more familiar for a DM to adjudicate.




Well what "more standard Swallow Whole" are you proposing? You mentioned regular Swallow Whole + Drowning, but what description would you like?

An adaptation of a Tendriculos's Swallow Whole/Paralysis strikes me as a promising approach:

Swallow Whole/Paralysis (Ex): A tendriculos can try to swallow a grabbed opponent by making a  successful grapple check. Once inside the plant’s mass, the opponent must succeed on a  DC 20 Fortitude save or be paralyzed for 3d6 rounds by the tendriculos’s digestive juices, taking 2d6 points  of acid damage per round. A new save is required each round inside the  plant. The save DC is Constitution-based. A swallowed creature that  avoids paralysis can climb out of the mass with a successful grapple check. This returns  it to the plant’s maw, where another successful grapple check is needed  to get free. A swallowed creature can also cut its way out by using a  light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 25 points of damage to the  tendriculos’s interior (AC 14). Once the creature exits, the plant’s  regenerative capacity closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must  cut its own way out. A Huge tendriculos’s interior can hold 2 Large, 8  Medium, 32 Small, 128 Tiny, or 512 Diminutive or smaller opponents. 

*Swallow Whole/Drowning (Ex):* A giant pitcher plant can try to swallow a grabbed  opponent by making a  successful grapple check. The interior of the plant is a vase filled with digestive fluids, each round the opponent takes 1d4 points  of acid damage and must succeed on a  DC15 Swim check or sink under the fluid and risk drowning. A swallowed creature can climb out of the vase with a successful grapple  check. This returns  it to the plant’s maw, where another successful grapple check is needed  to get free. The inside of the vase is lined with needle-sharp spines that do 2d4 piercing damage to the opponent for every grapple attempt they make to escape. A swallowed creature can also cut its way out by using a  light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 25 points of damage to the giant pitcher plant's interior (same AC and DR as the plant's exterior). Once the creature exits, elastic action closes the hole; another  swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. A Large giant pitcher plant's interior can hold 2 Medium, 8Small , 32 Tiny, 128 Diminutive or 512 Fine opponents.

Do you like that better?


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## freyar (Apr 13, 2010)

Yes, I prefer the standard grapple check to climb out (vs Climb checks), the silly elastic action to close the hole, etc.


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## Shade (Apr 13, 2010)

So we're going with Cleon's second version?


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## Cleon (Apr 14, 2010)

freyar said:


> Yes, I prefer the standard grapple check to climb out (vs Climb checks), the silly elastic action to close the hole, etc.




Okay then, let's use that and get on with the stats.

I cut down the DR from a treant's 10/slashing to 5/slashing, since I don't think these things should be as tough as a walking oak tree.

It's all pretty straightforward now apart from the question of how much damage it does with its "whip". Do we treat it like an actual whip [1d4+7 nonlethal?], regular damage like a tendriculos's tendril [1d4+7?], or a no-damage grapple like the original [special?].

*Pitcher Plant, Giant*
Large Plant
Hit Dice: 5d8+20 (42 hp)
Initiative: -2
Speed: 0 ft. (0 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (-1 size, -2 Dex, +7 natural) touch 7, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+12
Attack: Tendril +7 melee (1d4+5)
Full Attack: Tendril +7 melee (1d4+5)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./0 ft. (20 ft. with tendril)
Special Attacks: Drowning, improved grab, swallow whole
Special Qualities: Blind, damage reduction 5/slashing, tremorsense 20 ft., plant traits
Saves: Fort +8, Ref -1, Will +1
Abilities: Str 21, Dex 6, Con 18, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 3
Skills: —
Feats: Blind-Fight (B)
Environment: *Any?*
Organization: Solitary or cluster (2–8)
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: *10% coins?*
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 6-8 HD (Large); 9-15 HD (Huge) [_based on Tendriculos_]
Level Adjustment: —

*Combat*

*Blind:* Giant pitcher plants are immune to gaze attacks, visual effects, illusions, and other attack forms that rely  on sight.

*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, a giant pitcher plant must hit a creature at least one size  smaller than itself with its tendril attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can try to swallow the opponent in  the following round.

*Swallow Whole/Drowning (Ex):* A giant pitcher plant can try to  swallow a grabbed  opponent by making a  successful grapple check. The  interior of the plant is a vase filled with digestive fluids, each round  the opponent takes 1d4 points  of acid damage and must succeed on a   DC15 Swim check or sink under the fluid and risk drowning. A swallowed  creature can climb out of the vase with a successful grapple  check.  This returns  it to the plant’s maw, where another successful grapple  check is needed  to get free. The inside of the vase is lined with  needle-sharp spines that do 2d4 piercing damage to the opponent for  every grapple attempt they make to escape. A swallowed creature can also  cut its way out by using a  light slashing or piercing weapon to deal  25 points of damage to the giant pitcher plant's interior (same AC and  DR as the plant's exterior). Once the creature exits, elastic action  closes the hole; another  swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. A  Large giant pitcher plant's interior can hold 2 Medium, 8Small , 32  Tiny, 128 Diminutive or 512 Fine opponents.


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## freyar (Apr 14, 2010)

I'm inclined to go with regular damage, though it could be just +Str instead of 1-1/2.


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## Shade (Apr 14, 2010)

Let's go with freyar's suggestion.

Updated.

For Environment, "any temperate or warm land"?  I haven't seen anything to indicate that they can survive in cold climates.

CR 3?



> The acids are not strong enough to harm metals except over very long periods of time, so a victims' money, armor, and weapons will often be found inside the vase.




I'd suggest revising treasure to 1/10th coins; 1/10th goods (metallic only); standard items (metallic only).


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## freyar (Apr 14, 2010)

All sounds good.


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## Cleon (Apr 14, 2010)

freyar said:


> I'm inclined to go with regular damage, though it  could be just +Str instead of 1-1/2.




1d4+5 is fine by me.



Shade said:


> Let's go with freyar's suggestion.
> 
> Updated.




Blast it, I got the Hit Dice wrong. It should be HD: 5d8+20 (42 hp), not 5d8+25.



Shade said:


> For Environment, "any temperate or warm land"?  I haven't seen anything to indicate that they can survive in cold climates.




You can get pitcher plants in quite northerly latitudes. There are species of _Sarracenia_ in central Canada (and it gets pretty cold around their during the winter!), and I vaguely recall there are others in Scotland and the Scandinavian countries.

Still, most pitcher plants are found in nice temperate forests and jungles, so "any temperate or warm land" is fine by me.



Shade said:


> CR 3?




I was wondering about CR2, since they only do 1d4 damage per round to victims they're digesting. If we go for CR3 I feel we should probably boost the acid damage.



Shade said:


> I'd suggest revising treasure to 1/10th coins; 1/10th goods (metallic only); standard items (metallic only).




Make it "metallic or stone only" and I'll back you.


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## freyar (Apr 15, 2010)

Doesn't the risk of drowning count for a bit toward CR?

Stone items is ok, too, though it does seem slightly like a corner case.


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## Shade (Apr 16, 2010)

Yeah, I supposed the risk of drowning is enough to tip it over to CR 3.

Updated.  I believe we're finished.

Let's tackle one that's clearly a monster next...

*Helborn*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Subtropical and tropical swamps and jungles
FREQUENCY: Very rare 
INTELLIGENCE: Low 
TREASURE TYPE: Z
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
NO. APPRARING: 1 
ARMOR CLASS: See text
MOVEMENT: 3
HIT DICE: 8 
THAC0: 13 
NO. OF ATTACKS: See text 
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: See text 
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spell-like powers, continuous damage 
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 30%
SIZE: L (10’-12’ tall)
MORALE: Champion (16) 
XP VALUE: 2,000

The helborn is a sentient, carnivorous plant with spell-like powers. It is also able to use a telepathic, nonverbal empathy within 60’, allowing it to communicate with potential prey. All attempts to cultivate it have ended tragically. A mature helborn consists of a large, 4’-long head (AC 1) formed by two lobes like hinged clamshells. The trunk (AC 3) contains the plant’s stomach, and from the trunk grow from 4-12 large tendrils (AC 5).

The helborn can uproot itself, then travel short distances by using its roots to grasp objects and pull itself along. It is very cunning and uses treasure as a bribe or as a lure to trick prey into coming within reach of its tendrils. The helborn might also try to nonverbally convince its victims that it wants to help them in return for “food.”

Combat: The tendrils of the helborn are each able to club for 1-6 hp damage. A tendril can also wrap around an attacker on a to-hit roll, then crush for 1-4 hp damage per round thereafter. Each AC 5 tendril can sustain 8 hp damage before severing or breaking; this does not affect the plant’s own hit-point total. A tendril can lift a man-sized victim.

Prey is placed inside the helborn’s mouth, where the victim is held in place by the spines lining the inside of the lobes. If the prey struggles while inside, it receives 1-3 hp damage per round from the spines. A mild enzyme causes 1 hp damage per round for four rounds after the victim enters the mouth, after which the victim is moved down into the plant’s stomach where digestion continues. Inedible materials are later regurgitated and expelled.  The inside of the head is AC 5, and small edged weapons (short-sword size or less) may be used to inflict one-quarter of the plant’s total hit points in order to escape.

There are four stages to a helborn’s growth, each stage taking a year to reach. A seedling consists of the head (6” across with 1 HD) surrounded by a rosette of leaves. The head of a young plant (2 HD) is 1’ across, and there appear the beginnings of a trunk; some of the young plant’s leaves have become tendrils capable of a weak grasp, easily broken by medium-size or larger creatures. The subadult plant (4 HD) stands 6’-8’ high, with a head 2’ across and tendrils capable of 1-3 hp clubbing or 1-2 hp crushing damage. Mature plants live about 11-20 years.

Helborn plants gain certain spell-like abilities as they grow (each power is usable once per day). A helborn seedling possesses ESP; as a young plant, it can use hypnotism; a subadult plant can use domination; and a mature helborn possesses mass suggestion. These powers duplicate the mages’ spells of the same name cost at the 12th level.

Helborn are rarely encountered by those who do not dwell in swamps, and so have little effect on the world at large. They prey on all creatures except other plants, tolerating no rivals near them. In turn, they are attacked only by communal creatures who can amass the magic and military might to destroy them.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #167 (1991).


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## freyar (Apr 16, 2010)

This is one of the more interesting plants I've seen in a while; I wonder why it never got a more official treatment (even in the ToH or something).

First thoughts: let's ditch the stages of growth, as the younger ones don't seem to do much.  It sounds like the tendrils have imp grab and constrict, and there's a modified swallow whole.  The SLAs are a nice touch.


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## Shade (Apr 16, 2010)

freyar said:


> This is one of the more interesting plants I've seen in a while; I wonder why it never got a more official treatment (even in the ToH or something).




Indeed.



freyar said:


> First thoughts: let's ditch the stages of growth, as the younger ones don't seem to do much.




Agreed wholeheartedly.

Let's figure out some ability scores.  Int we know is 5-7.

Reducing a tendriculous to Large yields...

Str 20, Dex 11, Con 18, Int 3, Wis 8, Cha 3

Some other Large plants:
Bloodthorn: Str 20, Dex 17, Con 19, Int --, Wis 12, Cha 2
Night Twist: Str 39, Dex 6, Con 29, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 21
Vinespawn: Str 22, Dex 21, Con 17, Int 5, Wis 10, Cha 12


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## freyar (Apr 17, 2010)

Picking somewhat arbitrarily, how about Str 22, Dex 11, Con 18, Int 3, Wis 10, Cha 13?  I think the night twist is a bit overpowered compared to this (and IIRC has many more HD), but the rest are about the same.  I went with the higher Cha to help out the SLAs a little.


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## Cleon (Apr 17, 2010)

freyar said:


> Picking somewhat arbitrarily, how about Str 22, Dex 11, Con 18, Int 3, Wis 10, Cha 13?  I think the night twist is a bit overpowered compared to this (and IIRC has many more HD), but the rest are about the same.  I went with the higher Cha to help out the SLAs a little.




I like Shade's downscaled Tendriculos for a foundation, but feel it needs a higher Charisma to power its SLAs. I'd also like to boost the Wisdom and Dexterity a bit.

The original description gives it the equivalent of _hypnotism_, _dominate_, _mass suggestion_and _read thoughts _as SLAs, all 1/day. 

Are we making the dominate _dominate person_ (5th) or _dominate monster_ (9th level)? It might be easier to just make it _charm monster_ (Sor 4) instead or in addition to _dominate person_.

In any case, I'm thinking a Charisma at least 16 - the score a sorcerer needs to case _mass suggestion_. The weapon powers can be used more often than 1/day methinks.

How about this:

Abilities: Str 20, Dex 13, Con 18, Int 7, Wis 13, Cha 16

Spell-Like Abilities: At-will - _read thoughts_, 3/day - _hypnotism _(DC14), 1/day - _charm monster _(DC17) or _dominate person _(DC18), _mass suggestion_ (DC19). Caster level 12th, the save DCs are Charisma-based.

Hmm, I'm not sure I'm all that happy with that. Perhaps we should make some or all these SLAs Supernatural powers instead, like the SRD Vampire's Dominate?


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## freyar (Apr 18, 2010)

Ability scores are ok, and I'd forgotten Int was so high!

I'm not sure I see the justification in splitting these out as Su; the vampire does that to make it a gaze attack (which is a little annoying anyway).  I think I'd like to make the charm monster into suggestion perhaps at 3/day and keep dominate person at 1/day.


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## Cleon (Apr 18, 2010)

freyar said:


> Ability scores are ok, and I'd forgotten Int was so high!
> 
> I'm not sure I see the justification in splitting these out as Su; the vampire does that to make it a gaze attack (which is a little annoying anyway).  I think I'd like to make the charm monster into suggestion perhaps at 3/day and keep dominate person at 1/day.




Just to be clear, you're suggesting:

Spell-Like Abilities: At-will - _read thoughts_, 3/day - _hypnotism  _(DC14), _suggestion_ (DC16), 1/day - _dominate person _(DC18),  _mass suggestion_ (DC19). Caster level 12th, the save DCs are  Charisma-based.

That looks reasonable to me.

Shall we move on to its melee abilities?

The original plant has 4-12 tendrils which can club for 1d6 damage or constrict for 1d4 which it can use to transfer prey to its mouth where they take 1d3 spines + 1 acid damage per round. The mouth doesn't seem to do bite damage, but there's precedent for that.

So, 4 tendrils with Improved Grab, Constrict and Swallow Whole?

The tendrils can be severed - copy the SRD Giant Octopus's tentacle-severing?

I think we'd better increase the Swallow Whole damage quite a bit. 1d6 piercing plus 1d6 acid?

It's mobile, but very slow - speed 10 ft?

The original monster's tendrils and mouth are AC5, the trunk AC3 and the head AC1. I'd average it to AC3 and convert that to an AD&D AC of 17-18.

Putting it together, I'm getting something like this:

*Helborn*
Large Plant
Hit Dice: 8d8+32 (68 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 10 ft. (2 squares)
Armor Class: 17 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +7 natural) touch 10, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+15
Attack: Tendril +11 melee (1d6+5)
Full Attack: 4-12 tendrils +11 melee (1d6+5)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Constrict 1d4+5, improved grab, spell-like abilities, swallow whole
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, plant traits, spell resistance CR+7, telepathy 60 ft.
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +3, Will +5
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 13, Con 18, Int 7, Wis 13, Cha 16
Skills: Bluff +6* (+10 with telepathy), Hide +1* (+9 in  undergrowth), Listen  +5, Spot +5
Feats: Power Attack, Iron Will, Weapon Focus (tendril)
Environment: Warm swamps
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: ?
Treasure: Standard ?
Alignment: Always neutral evil ?
Advancement: 9-11 HD (Large), 12-17 HD (Huge), 18-24 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: —

*Combat*
Helborn attack with their tendrils, which they use to  crush opponents before attempting to swallow them. Each plant has one  tendril for every 2 Hit Dice it possesses, and can attack with all of them simultaneously with a full attack. A helborn can attack a Small or Man-sized opponent with up to four tendrils, a Tiny opponent with two, and a Diminutive or smaller opponent with only one tendril. Opponents can attack a helborn's tendrils with a sunder attempt as if they were weapons. A helborn's tendrils have 10  hit points each. If a helborn is currently grappling a target with the tendril that is being attacked, it usually uses  another limb to make its attack of opportunity against the opponent making the sunder attempt.  Severing one of a helborn's tendrils deals 5 points of damage to  the creature. A helborn usually withdraws from combat if it loses two  tendrils. The creature regrows severed limbs in 1d10+10 days. 

* Constrict (Ex):* A helborn deals 1d4+5 points of damage with a successful grapple check.

* Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, a helborn must hit an opponent of any size  with a tentacle attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict and swallow whole.

_* Spell-Like Abilities:*_ At-will - _read thoughts_, 3/day - _hypnotism   _(DC14), _suggestion_ (DC16), 1/day - _dominate person  _(DC18),  _mass suggestion_ (DC19). Caster level 12th, the save DCs are  Charisma-based.

* Swallow Whole (Ex):* A helborn can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of a smaller size than itself by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, the  opponent takes 1d6+5 points of crushing damage per round plus 1d6 points of acid damage. A swallowed  creature can cut its way out by dealing 20 points of damage to the plant's interior (AC 13). Once the creature exits, muscular action  close the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. A Large helborn's interior can hold 2 Medium, 8 Small, 32 Tiny or 128 Diminutive  smaller creatures.

Skills: *A hellborn has a +12 racial bonus on Hide checks when amongst undergrowth. *A hellborn has a +4 circumstance bonus on Bluff checks when using its telepathy to communicate.


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## freyar (Apr 18, 2010)

Looks pretty good to me!  Shall we give them 4 tendrils?


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## Cleon (Apr 19, 2010)

freyar said:


> Looks pretty good to me!  Shall we give them 4 tendrils?




Oh dang it, I was going to put that in but forgot.

I'll edit "4 tendrils" in, and copy-and-paste in some of the standard tentacle and SA descriptions.


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## Shade (Apr 19, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

I added telepathy and spell resistance, as indicated in the orginal description.

It sounds like they would have decent Bluff skills, so perhaps a racial bonus and maybe Skill Focus?  

I'd suggest splitting the skills between Bluff, Listen, and Spot.

Should we add an "advanced helborns" underbar to grant additional tendril attacks for every x Hit Dice gained?  Thus the largest would have 12 tendrils, like the high end of the original description's range.  Perhaps allow even further advancement, maybe even to Gargantuan, to account for these 12-tendriled behemoths?


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## freyar (Apr 19, 2010)

The underbar for extra tendrils sounds good, as does Gargantuan.  I notice now also that the current advancement has a 6-8HD line, even though the base critter already has 8 HD.  What about 1 extra tendril per 2 extra HD and Advancement: 9-14 HD (Large), 15-20 HD (Huge), 21-24 HD (Gargantuan)?

Skills sound ok, but I don't know that they need so much into Bluff given their magical compulsions.  For feats, maybe Power Attack, Dodge, and Lightning Reflexes?


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## Cleon (Apr 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> I added telepathy and spell resistance, as indicated in the orginal description.
> 
> ...




That all sounds good.



Shade said:


> Should we add an "advanced helborns" underbar to grant additional tendril attacks for every x Hit Dice gained?  Thus the largest would have 12 tendrils, like the high end of the original description's range.  Perhaps allow even further advancement, maybe even to Gargantuan, to account for these 12-tendriled behemoths?




I would prefer it if they had one tendril per 2 Hit Dice but can only  full attack with 4 of them at a time, so the excess are only usable as  replacements and to make Attacks of Opportunity.

Rather than an underbar, I'd just stick the information in the Combat entry. i.e.:

Hellborn attack with their tendrils, which they use to crush opponents before attempting to swallow them. Each plant has one tendril for every 2 Hit Dice it possesses, but can only attack with four of them with a full attack, surplus tendrils can make attacks of opportunity and serve as replacements if a tendril is sundered. An opponent can attack a hellborn's tendrils with a sunder attempt as if  they were weapons. A hellborn's tendrils have 10  hit points each. If a  hellborn is currently grappling a target with the tendril that is being  attacked, it usually uses  another limb to make its attack of  opportunity against the opponent making the sunder attempt.  Severing  one of a hellborn's tentacles deals 5 points of damage to  the creature.  A hellborn usually withdraws from combat if it loses two  tentacles.  The creature regrows severed limbs in 1d10+10 days.


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## Cleon (Apr 19, 2010)

freyar said:


> The underbar for extra tendrils sounds good, as does Gargantuan.  I notice now also that the current advancement has a 6-8HD line, even though the base critter already has 8 HD.  What about 1 extra tendril per 2 extra HD and Advancement: 9-14 HD (Large), 15-20 HD (Huge), 21-24 HD (Gargantuan)?




Oh blast you're right. I copy-and-pasted the pitcher plant and forgot to change its Advancement.

I was just going to Advance them to Huge, something like:

Advancement: 9-12 HD (Large), 13-24 HD (Huge)



freyar said:


> Skills sound ok, but I don't know that they need so much into Bluff given their magical compulsions.  For feats, maybe Power Attack, Dodge, and Lightning Reflexes?




Good point on the Bluff, we might as well drop it. They could do with some skill in Hide. Shall we give them a racial bonus on Hide (say +8 in undergrowth), and split the SPs between Hide, Listen and Spot.

How about dividing its 11 ranks Hide 3, Listen 4, Spot 4. That would give:

*Skills:* Hide +0* (+8 in undergrowth), Listen +5, Spot +5

I could go for boosting the racial Hide bonus to +12 in undergrowth, since you'd expect a plant to blend in well in such surroundings!

EDIT: How about we give them a racial/circumstance bonus on Bluff checks due to their telepathy? Add "*a hellborn has a +4 circumstance bonus on Bluff checks against creatures it is communicating with using its telepathy."

*Skills:* Bluff +3* (+7 with telepathy), Hide +0* (+8 in undergrowth), Listen +5, Spot +5

I don't like Dodge for them, for 'tis a useless feat. Wouldn't Weapon Focus (tendril) give more bang for the buck?

*Feats:* Power Attack, Lightning Reflexes, Weapon Focus (tendril)


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## Cleon (Apr 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.




Looking through the updated text there are still a few "tentacles" which should be "tendrils".

At least you noticed the Giant Octopus I'd left in Improved Grab.

Oh, and I keep on spelling it wrong - there's just something about "helborn" that makes me think it should have two Ls, so there are quite a few "hellborns" in the writeup that shouldn't be there.

I'll edit my post #65 to remove those typos.

EDIT: Oh, and I might as well throw in Shade's additions and my proposed Advancement, Skills and Feats.


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## Cleon (Apr 19, 2010)

One last thing. That +3 Will save looks a bit odd for a creature with domination and mass suggestion SLAs and telepathy.

Do we want to do something to improve it?


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## Shade (Apr 20, 2010)

I'm still rooting for Bluff, as the original text clearly indicates that they try to manipulate people in the ol' fashioned way as well as their magical compulsions:



> It is very cunning and uses treasure as a bribe or as a lure to trick prey into coming within reach of its tendrils. The *helborn might also try to nonverbally convince its victims that it wants to help them in return for “food.”*




The bonus on Hide checks sounds good, but I don't think it needs any skill ranks.  It's a deceptive hunter, not an ambush hunter.

Power Attack, Lightning Reflexes, Weapon Focus (tendril) sound good.  I'm fine with the poor Will save, but if you want to boost it, I'd swap Lightning Reflexes for Iron Will.   Nothing screams "good reflexes" to me for this one.

I'd prefer the 9-14 HD (Large), 15-20 HD (Huge), 21-24 HD (Gargantuan) advancement, and the new tendril per 2 HD works for me.   

Any particular reason to limit the number of tendrils it can employ?   It seems an unnecessary hindrance to me.


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## Cleon (Apr 20, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'm still rooting for Bluff, as the original text clearly indicates that they try to manipulate people in the ol' fashioned way as well as their magical compulsions:
> 
> The bonus on Hide checks sounds good, but I don't think it needs any skill ranks.  It's a deceptive hunter, not an ambush hunter.




Well I'd be game to move the skill ranks to Bluff provided we use the +12 racial bonus to Hide in undergrowth. That would give them:

*Skills:* Bluff +6* (+10 with telepathy), Hide +1* (+9 in  undergrowth), Listen +5, Spot +5



Shade said:


> Power Attack, Lightning Reflexes, Weapon Focus (tendril) sound good.  I'm fine with the poor Will save, but if you want to boost it, I'd swap Lightning Reflexes for Iron Will.   Nothing screams "good reflexes" to me for this one.




Yes, moving the Lightning Reflexes to Iron Will was percolating through my mind too. Let's do that.



Shade said:


> I'd prefer the 9-14 HD (Large), 15-20 HD (Huge), 21-24 HD (Gargantuan) advancement, and the new tendril per 2 HD works for me.




I guess I'm alright with it advancing to Gargantuan, but I'd rather the HD ranges got wider as it got bigger. Something like:

*Advancement:* 9-11 HD (Large), 12-17 HD (Huge), 18-24 HD (Gargantuan)

i.e. a Large helborn has 4-5 tendrils, a Huge one has 6-8 and a Gargantuan one 9-12 tendrils.



Shade said:


> Any particular reason to limit the number of tendrils it can employ?   It seems an unnecessary hindrance to me.




I just didn't fancy having it be able to coordinate that many attacks at once. I'd be alright with 4-12 tendril attacks if it could only direct 4 of them against any particular Small to Medium opponent (2 for Tiny, 1 for Diminutive or smaller), so a 12-tendril Helborn can only use all its tendrils if facing three regular-sized foes or one Large+ one.

Anyhow, I'll edit these revisions into my proposed stats in post #65.


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## Shade (Apr 20, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Well I'd be game to move the skill ranks to Bluff provided we use the +12 racial bonus to Hide in undergrowth. That would give them:
> 
> *Skills:* Bluff +6* (+10 with telepathy), Hide +1* (+9 in  undergrowth), Listen +5, Spot +5




Yep, that works for me!



			
				Cleon said:
			
		

> I guess I'm alright with it advancing to Gargantuan, but I'd rather the HD ranges got wider as it got bigger. Something like:
> 
> *Advancement:* 9-11 HD (Large), 12-17 HD (Huge), 18-24 HD (Gargantuan)
> 
> i.e. a Large helborn has 4-5 tendrils, a Huge one has 6-8 and a Gargantuan one 9-12 tendrils.




Again, works for me.



			
				Cleon said:
			
		

> I just didn't fancy having it be able to coordinate that many attacks at once. I'd be alright with 4-12 tendril attacks if it could only direct 4 of them against any particular Small to Medium opponent (2 for Tiny, 1 for Diminutive or smaller), so a 12-tendril Helborn can only use all its tendrils if facing three regular-sized foes or one Large+ one.




I don't think it's necessary, but if we do this, we can simply borrow from the darktentacles...

"A darktentacles can use only three tentacles at once against a Small or Medium opponent. Against a larger foe, it can use three additional tentacles for each extra 5 feet of face the opponent has, provided that it has the reach. Against a Tiny or smaller opponent, the creature can use only one tentacle. It can use a maximum of three tentacles against all foes in any single 5-foot by 5-foot area."

...modified to fit...

A helborn can use only four tendrils at once against a Small or Medium opponent. Against a larger foe, it can use four additional tendrils for each extra 5 feet of face the opponent has, provided that it has the reach. Against a Tiny or smaller opponent, the creature can use only one tendril. It can use a maximum of four tendrils against all foes in any single 5-foot by 5-foot area.

Does that work?


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## freyar (Apr 21, 2010)

The proposed modifications sound fine to me.  I also don't see the need to limit the number of tendrils per opponent (by the time they're Gargantuan, they should be mean!), but Shade's text is good if we do that.


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## Cleon (Apr 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yep, that works for me!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That's fine by me!


----------



## Shade (Apr 22, 2010)

Updated.

CR?


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## freyar (Apr 22, 2010)

With the SLAs, it's almost as good as a tendriculos, but I'm not sure if it's quite as good.  Does CR 6 sound right, or is CR 5 better?


----------



## Shade (Apr 23, 2010)

I think it's worthy of the CR 6.  Its damage output is nearly identical with the tendriculous, and the SLAs help offset the slightly lower attack modifier and regeneration, methinks.


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## freyar (Apr 23, 2010)

CR 6 it is!  Done then?


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## Shade (Apr 23, 2010)

I think so!  Next...

*Clubthorn*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate forests and swamps
INTELLIGENCE: Animal
NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 1 (see text)
HIT DICE: 6
THAC0: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2-8
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: See text
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See text
SIZE: L to H
MORALE: Elite (14)
XP VALUE: 975

Clubthorn is related to the holly tree and shares many of its physical characteristics. Often found growing alongside holly, clubthorn is 90% likely to be mistaken for it. Clubthorn grows to a maximum height of 20”. It acquires 1 HD each year after its first year of growth until it achieves its maximum number of hit dice. Clubthorn is an evergreen with glossy green leaves and bright red berries. The leaves are as stiff as boiled leather, with sharp spines along their serrated edges.

Combat: The tree possesses a set of special root-like tentacles concealed just beneath the surface of the ground, extending in a radius equal to half the tree’s height. When a suitable victim approaches, these roots erupt from the ground and wrap around the victim’s legs, holding him fast (they are easily cut with a single successful stroke against AC 6). The tree then attacks with its limbs, doing clubbing damage according to the age of the tree: 1-4 hp ( × 2) for a sapling, 1-6 hp ( × 4) for a young tree, 1-8 hp ( × 6) for a mature tree, and 1-10 hp ( × 8) for an old tree (the number in parentheses refers to the number of attacks the plant can make per round).

Because of the hardness of its wood and bark, blunt weapons do only half damage against clubthorn. Also, like the holly, the inner bark of the tree contains a sticky substance, similar to birdlime, that causes edged weapons to become stuck when they cut into the tree. A successful roll to bend bars or lift gates is required to pull a weapon free. A vinegar solution will dissolve the gum.

Habitat/Ecology: This tree feeds on the blood and decaying bodies of its victims through its roots. It is smart enough to move about 20’-50’ away from the site of a kill after it feeds, so as not to scare or warn off potential prey (it moves otherwise only to escape fire). Attempts to cultivate clubthorn as a hedge plant for defensive purposes have met with mixed success, thanks to the tree’s mobility.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #167 (1991).


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## Cleon (Apr 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> I think it's worthy of the CR 6.  Its damage output is nearly identical with the tendriculous, and the SLAs help offset the slightly lower attack modifier and regeneration, methinks.




I agree. A tendriculos is little threat if you can play "keep away" since it can do nothing to foes outside its 15-foot Reach, this thing can hit foes from a distance with its magic and even force them to attack each other.


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## Cleon (Apr 23, 2010)

This Clubthorn doesn't look too complicated.

A 6 HD Large Plant with Int 1 and multiple attacks.

The description says "It acquires 1 HD each year after its first year of growth until it  achieves its maximum number of hit dice" which appears to be 6 HD.

I'd expand the size range since its slam attacks start at 1d4 and go on to 2d6. Start it at Medium (Two 1d4 slam damage) then go up to Gargantuan (Eight 2d6 slam damage), with an extra 2 slams per size category?

Medium-sized Sapling (1-2 HD, 2 1d4 slams)
Large-sized Young Plant (3-5 HD, 4 1d6 slams)
Huge-sized Mature Plant (6-10 HD, 6 1d8 slams)
Gargantuan-sized Old Plant (11-18 HD, 8 2d6 slams)


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## Shade (Apr 23, 2010)

That sounds about right.

It's also got DR x/slashing and piercing, and the sap is something like this...

Adhesive Slime (Ex): The thick, tarlike slime that farstus secrete acts as a powerful adhesive, holding fast creatures or items that touch it. Farastus have a +8 racial bonus on grapple checks and disarm checks due to their adhesive slime. A farastu frequently chooses to grapple its foes and then maul its enemies with natural attacks.

A weapon that strikes a farastu is stuck fast unless the wielder succeeds on a Reflex save (DC 17). Prying off a stuck weapon requires a Strength check (DC 17). The save DC is Constitution-based.

Lantern oil or some other flammable oil (such as alchemist's fire) dissolves the farstu's adhesive slime; the creature requires 10 minutes to renew its adhesive coating if doused with oil. A farastu can dissolve its adhesive slime at will, and the substance breaks down 1 minute after the creature dies.


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## Cleon (Apr 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> That sounds about right.
> 
> It's also got DR x/slashing and piercing, and the sap is something like this...
> 
> ...




That looks good, we just need to change it to vinegar. Maybe add alcohol solutions like wine as well? Also, I suspect the Clubthorn can not dissolve its sap like a farastu can.

Oh, and it's also got this:



> The tree possesses a set of special root-like tentacles concealed just  beneath the surface of the ground, extending in a radius equal to half  the tree’s height. When a suitable victim approaches, these roots erupt  from the ground and wrap around the victim’s legs, holding him fast  (they are easily cut with a single successful stroke against AC 6).




Some kind of entangle effect within a given radius of the plant.

How's this for a start.

*Entangling Roots (Ex):* A clubthorn can wrap specialized root-tendrils around every creature within its reach as an X action. Every creature within the area must succeed at a DC Y Reflex save or be entangled and held fast, those that save can still move at half speed through the area. Creatures entangled by the roots can break free and move half their normal speed by using a full-round action to make a DC Z Strength check or a DC Z Escape Artist check. The save DC is Strength-based.


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## freyar (Apr 24, 2010)

That all looks pretty much right to me. We could also steal the entangle ability from what we did for the Telaxian Vine:



			
				CC said:
			
		

> Entangle (Ex): Using its feeler vines and roots, a telexian vine can entangle creatures within 30 feet of itself as a free action (Ref DC 16 partial).
> 
> The effect lasts until the vine dies or decides to end it (also a free action). The save DC is Strength-based. The ability is otherwise similar to entangle (caster level 4th).


----------



## Cleon (Apr 24, 2010)

freyar said:


> That all looks pretty much right to me. We could also steal the entangle ability from what we did for the Telaxian Vine:




Yes, we can steal some stuff from that. I'd prefer to leave the relevant bits of an entangle spell's mechanics in the description, just to save the poor hardworking DM from having to look it up.

I am curious why that write-up gives a caster level, since as its range and duration are no longer level-dependent, and the ability can't be dispelled, there doesn't seem any use for one.

Revising my previous proposal I think I'll go for immediate action rather than free.

*Entangling Roots (Ex):* Using specialized  root-tendrils, a clubthorn can entangle creatures  within its reach as an immediate action. All creatures within the area must succeed at a DC Y Reflex save or be  entangled and held fast, those that save can still move at half speed  through the area, but the clubthorn can try to entangle them again on subsequent rounds. Creatures entangled by the roots can break free and  move half their normal speed by using a full-round action to make a DC Z  Strength check or a DC Z Escape Artist check. The effect lasts until the clubthorn dies or decides to end it (a free  action). The save DC is  Strength-based, with a +4 racial bonus on the Escape Artist check. 	

I can't put in DCs because we haven't started on the stats yet!

Speaking of which...

Shall we start it as a Medium-sized plant and work up?

My original proposal for the size stages was 1-2 HD for a sapling, but I feel we'd be better off starting at 2 HD:

I'm thinking something like...

*Clubthorn, Sapling*
Medium Plant
Hit Dice: 2d8+4 (13 hp)
Speed: 5 ft. (1 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (+1 Dex, +4 natural) touch 11, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+2
Attack: Slam +3 melee (1d4+1)
Full Attack: 2 slams +3 melee (1d4+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Adhesive sap, entangling roots
Special Qualities: DR 3/slashing and piercing, low-light vision, plant traits
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +1, Will +0
Abilities: Str 12, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 1, Wis 10, Cha 3
Skills: 5 - all in Listen +?
Feats: 1 - Weapon Focus (slam)?
Environment: Warm swamps and forests
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: ?
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 3-5 HD (Large), 6-10 HD (Huge), 11-18 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: —

Combat Stuff

*Clubthorn, Young Tree*
Large Plant
 Hit Dice: 3d8+12 (25 hp)
Speed: 5 ft. (1 squares)
 Armor Class: 15 (-1 size, +6 natural) touch 9, flat-footed 15
 Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+11
 Attack: Slam +7 melee (1d6+5)
 Full Attack: 4 slams +7 melee (1d6+5)
 Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
 Special Attacks: Adhesive sap, entangling roots
 Special Qualities: DR 5/slashing and piercing, low-light vision, plant  traits
 Saves: Fort +7, Ref +1, Will +1
 Abilities: Str 20, Dex 11, Con 18, Int 1, Wis 10, Cha 3
 Skills: 6 - all in Listen +?
 Feats: 2 - Power Attack, Weapon Focus (slam) ?
Challenge Rating: ?

*Clubthorn, Mature Tree*
 Huge Plant
  Hit Dice: 6d8+36 (63 hp)
 Speed: 5 ft. (1 squares)
  Armor Class: 16 (-2 size, -1 Dex, +9 natural) touch 7, flat-footed 16
  Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+21
  Attack: Slam +12 melee (1d8+9)
  Full Attack: 6 slams +12 melee (1d8+9)
  Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft.
  Special Attacks: Adhesive sap, entangling roots
  Special Qualities: DR 5/slashing and piercing, low-light vision, plant  traits
  Saves: Fort +11, Ref +3, Will +2
  Abilities: Str 28, Dex 9, Con 22, Int 1, Wis 10, Cha 3
  Skills: 9 - all in Listen +?
  Feats: 3 - Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (slam) ?
Challenge Rating: ?

*Clubthorn, Old Tree*
  Gargantuan Plant
   Hit Dice: 11d8+36 (63 hp)
  Speed: 5 ft. (1 squares)
   Armor Class: 18 (-4 size, -1 Dex, +13 natural) touch 5, flat-footed 18
   Base Attack/Grapple: +8/+33
   Attack: Slam +18 melee (2d6+13)
   Full Attack: 8 slams +18 melee (2d6+13)
   Space/Reach: 20 ft./20 ft.
   Special Attacks: Adhesive sap, entangling roots
   Special Qualities: DR 5/slashing and piercing, low-light vision, plant  traits
   Saves: Fort +15, Ref +4, Will +3
   Abilities: Str 36, Dex 9, Con 26, Int 1, Wis 10, Cha 3
   Skills: 14 - all in Listen +?
   Feats: 4 - Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (slam) plus one more?
Challenge Rating: ?


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## freyar (Apr 26, 2010)

Yowsers.  Can we just stick to 6HD and the mature tree, like pretty much all the other monsters?  Ability scores seem good, though.


----------



## Shade (Apr 26, 2010)

freyar said:


> Yowsers.  Can we just stick to 6HD and the mature tree, like pretty much all the other monsters?  Ability scores seem good, though.




Yes, absolutely!


----------



## freyar (Apr 26, 2010)

Oh, and shouldn't it be DR 5/slashing or piercing (instead of "and")?


----------



## Shade (Apr 26, 2010)

Indeed!  Otherwise, the weapon options are quite limited.


----------



## freyar (Apr 27, 2010)

Cleon's entangling roots sounds good, and I agree with his suggestions on the adhesive.


----------



## Shade (Apr 27, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.


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## Cleon (Apr 27, 2010)

freyar said:


> Yowsers.  Can we just stick to 6HD and the mature tree, like pretty much all the other monsters?  Ability scores seem good, though.




I was thinking more of starting as a sapling and advancing it to Gargantuan myself, since it gains extra slam attacks as it gets bigger.

It just seemed easier on the DM to do the stats for each size, like an elemental or an arrowhawk, than leave it to them to work out.



freyar said:


> Oh, and shouldn't it be DR 5/slashing or piercing  (instead of "and")?




Yes, that was just a mistake.

Alas, it wasn't a cunning scheme to ensure its DR could only be penetrated by bites, claws and talons.


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## Cleon (Apr 27, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.




The Adhesive Sap looks like it still needs some work. A clubthorn isn't covered in sap, it leaks out when its bark is penetrated by a weapon. Therefore it shouldn't aid its grapples, although it would presumably help its disarms vs a weapon that's dug in it.

I'd also like to be a bit more specific what "alcohol" is enough to dissolve the sap.

How about this revision:

*Adhesive Sap (Ex):* Clubthorns have a birdlime-like adhesive sap that leaks out whenever their outer bark  is penetrated. Any piercing or slashing weapon that strikes a clubthorn is stuck fast unless the wielder  succeeds on a DC 19 Reflex save. Prying off a stuck weapon requires a DC  19 Strength check. Clubthorns have a +8 circumstance bonus on disarm checks  against weapons stuck in their adhesive sap. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Vinegar, wine and strong alcohol can dissolve the clubthorn's adhesive sap.  The  substance breaks down 1 minute after the creature dies.


----------



## Shade (Apr 27, 2010)

Looks good. 

Did we decide upon an action type for the entangling roots?   I'm thinking move-equivalent makes the most sense.


----------



## freyar (Apr 28, 2010)

Adhesive sap and move-equivalent entanglement sound fine.


----------



## Shade (Apr 30, 2010)

Updated.



> The leaves are as stiff as boiled leather, with *sharp spines along their serrated edges*.




Should we have the slam attacks deal half-slashing or piercing damage?  They are called club_thorns_, after all.  

Skills: 9
Split between Listen and Spot?

Feats: 3
Alertness, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (slam)?

Treasure: None?  Or something incidental?

Advancement: 7-10 HD (Huge), 11-x HD (Gargantuan)


----------



## Cleon (Apr 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> Looks good.
> 
> Did we decide upon an action type for the entangling roots?   I'm thinking move-equivalent makes the most sense.




It was immediate in the original draft, but move-equivalent is fine by me.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> Should we have the slam attacks deal half-slashing or piercing damage?  They are called club_thorns_, after all.




I'd make it "bludgeoning and piercing" like a morningstar.



Shade said:


> Skills: 9
> Split between Listen and Spot?




I'd put it all in Listen myself. These things presumably have eyes, but it just doesn't seem right having them see very well.

Also, I've been wondering about giving them tremorsense 20 ft., based on the presumption they can sense their surroundings via their "entangling roots".




Shade said:


> Feats: 3
> Alertness, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (slam)?




Not sure about Alertness, I'd maybe swap it for Lightning Reflexes.



Shade said:


> Treasure: None?  Or something incidental?




Something incidental.



Shade said:


> Advancement: 7-10 HD (Huge), 11-x HD (Gargantuan)




That'd suit me.


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I'd make it "bludgeoning and piercing" like a morningstar.




Great!



Cleon said:


> I'd put it all in Listen myself. These things presumably have eyes, but it just doesn't seem right having them see very well.




That works for me.



Cleon said:


> Also, I've been wondering about giving them tremorsense 20 ft., based on the presumption they can sense their surroundings via their "entangling roots".




Again, good.



Cleon said:


> Not sure about Alertness, I'd maybe swap it for Lightning Reflexes.




Sure, why not?

Updated.

CR?


----------



## Cleon (Apr 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> CR?




Problematic. Get within 15 feet of one and you're in for a world of hurt from its entangling roots and six (!) 1d8+9 damage slams.

Outside that distance and you can play "keep away" and whittle them to death with ease.

I suppose Challenge Rating 4 is probable closest.

According to my Dragon Magazine Archive pdf of issue 167 "Clubthorn grows to a maximum height of 20'." Not 200' like you quote.[FONT=&quot][/FONT] I'm guessing this is an interpretation of 20" tall, but this is a 2nd edition AD&D monster so I doubt it would use scale-inches. That's more of a 1E thing.

Still, 20 feet doesn't seem a bad height for a Huge Clubthorn since Huge creature normally range from 16-32 feet.

How about giving a typical Clubthorn a 20 to 20 foot height? 

Alternatively, If we are going to have them grow to 200 feet like we would need to have the Advancement go up to Colossal, maybe something like 7-10 (Huge); 12-17 (Gargantuan); 18-24 (Colossal)?


----------



## Shade (Apr 30, 2010)

CR 4 seems about right.  We could add the usual camouflage (mistaken for a normal plant) ability if you think that would help justify their CR.

On the height, I'm fine either way.  Freyar, do you have a preference?


----------



## freyar (Apr 30, 2010)

Let's have them go up to Colossal.  Sounds fun!


----------



## Cleon (May 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> CR 4 seems about right.  We could add the usual camouflage (mistaken for a normal plant) ability if you think that would help justify their CR.
> 
> On the height, I'm fine either way.  Freyar, do you have a preference?




Camouflage sounds good.

As for the size, I'm OK either way, so we might as well go to Colossal if it amuses Freyar.


----------



## Shade (May 3, 2010)

Sounds good!  Updated.

All done?


----------



## freyar (May 3, 2010)

Looks good!


----------



## Shade (May 3, 2010)

*Strangler*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Plains
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVE TIME: Any
DIET: Predator
INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 4 (7)
MOVEMENT: Nil
HIT DICE: 6
THAC0: 14
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1-6
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Paralysis, crush
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: G (25' diameter)
MORALE: Elite (14)
XP VALUE: 3,000

Stranglers are camivorous plants native to the disk world of Plata. The plant's central body is short and stocky -- roughly spherical and about 3 feet in diameter. Extending out from this center are 8 "tentacles," arrayed evenly around the plant, each about 10-12 feet long. These tentacles resemble thick green vines, about the thickness of a man's wrist, and extend outward along the ground from the central body. The tentacles are dark green, while the central body is a light greenish-yellow.

The green coloration of a strangler implies that the plant is at least partially photosynthetic. But this isn't its only source of sustenance. Although the long tentacular vines are usually stationary, they can under the right circumstances move extremely fast. The "right circumstances" is the approach of an animal of some kind within range of one or more tentacles. Tentacles lash out in an attempt to capture the animal and drag it into a fleshy mouth that opens in the top of the central body. Once the animal is "swallowed," the strangler's digestive enzymes dissolve it over a period of several hours.

Nobody knows exactly what senses a strangler possesses. It is unaffected by either darkness or bright light, and doesn't react to sound or silence. Most sages agree that the creature somehow senses movement, since it will never attack a motionless creature that it hasn't already captured with at least one tentacle.

Combat: At the first moment that a potential prey comes within range, one or more of the tentacles lashes out and attempts to wrap itself around the animal. This requires a successful attack roll. A successful capture means that the target creature is grasped by at least one tentacle, and suffers 1d8 hit points of crushing damage. Each subsequent round - unless the creature manages to escape - the tentacle continues to crush its target for maximum damage, and attempts to drag it towards the central body of the plant. Unless the plant has to contend with more than one target simultaneously, it will continue to wrap more tentacles around its prey as the unfortunate animal is dragged closer to its central body. A single creature an be attacked by no more than 6 tentacles. Subsequent tentacle attacks receive a +2 bonus to their attack rolls for each tentacle already gripping the target.

In addition to crushing damage, the tentacles of a strangler inflict a more insidious attack on their prey. The tentacles secrete an enzymatic mixture which causes paralysis in its prey. Each round that a creature is in the grip of a strangler, it must make a saving throw vs. poison or become paralyzed. This paralysis lasts until the creature is either dead or freed from the grip of the strangler; in the latter case, the paralysis fades gradually over a period of 2d8 rounds. For each additional tentacle in excess of one that grips a single victim, that victim suffers a -1 penalty to its saving throw against paralysis.

Once the strangler has shoved its victim into its fleshy mouth, the victim suffers 1d10 hit points of damage each round from enzymatic secretions (save vs. acid for half damage). In addition, the victim must save vs. breath weapons with a -5 penalty each round it's in the plant's mouth or be paralyzed. The body of a dead creature will be dissolved and unrecoverable after 2d12 hours.

The easiest way to free a victim from a strangler tentacle is to cut off the tentacle. A tentacle has AC 7 - as opposed to AC 4 for the central body - and can withstand only 2d8 hit points of damage before it's destroyed. Damage inflicted on tentacles isn't counted against the strangler's total "hit point pool," and can't kill the creature. Only hits against the central body can actually kill the creature. A strangler can regenerate a destroyed tentacle in 1 d6 days. It can regenerate multiple tentacles at the same time, although the time complete regeneration takes is increased by one day for each tentacle in excess of one that the plant must re-grow.

A strong, un-paralyzed creature might be able to tear itself free from a strangler, or at least prevent itself from being dragged into the central maw. To free himself from a tentacle, a character must make a "bend bars" roll based on Strength. A successful roll means the creature has tom free from one tentacle. Such an attempt takes one entire round in which the character can do nothing else. (Breaking free from a tentacle doesn't mean that same tentacle can't attack again on the next round, of course.)

High Strength can also let a character prevent a strangler from dragging him within range of its mouth. The procedure is as follows: First, consider that each tentacle gripping the character has a Strength of 16. Now add together the Strength scores of the captured character plus any other characters who are trying to help him pull away. Compare this to the Strength total of the tentacles currently holding the character. If the characters' total Strength is greater than or equal to the strangler's total strength - that is, 16 times the number of tentacles gripping the victim then the plant is unable to pull its prey any closer to its mouth. If the characters' total Strength is less than the strangler's total strength, however, the plant continues to drag its prey closer. (For example: Balfas the warrior (Str 14) is grabbed by two strangler tentacles. Balfas' friends Adria (Str 9) and Lykan (Str 12) try to help him resist the plant's pull. The characters' total Strength is 35; the strangler's total Strength for the two tentacles is 32 (16 X 2). Balfas and friends can resist the pull of the strangler... just. If the plant scores a hit with another tentacle, Balfas and his two friends will be unable to resist any longer.) It's important to remember that anyone trying to help a captured victim is by definition within range of at least one other tentacle...

Fire- and heat-based attacks do double damage to a strangler. All other attack forms do normal damage. Since the plant has no mind as such, it is totally immune to charm, illusions, and other mind-affecting magic.

Habitat/Society: Stranglers are non- mobile and totally unintelligent. They cannot communicate with their own kind in any way.

Every 250 days or so, a single blood-red flower blooms atop a strangler's central body. This flower is beautiful to see, but smells of carrion. The flower remains open for several days, then the seed pod below the flower bursts, scattering seeds to the winds. Since there are no insects or birds on Plata to fertilize the stranglers, the plants must depend solely on the wind to do so - not a particularly effective strategy. The relative frequency of the plants proves that this scheme does work, however.

Ecology: Stranglers are virtually perfect "opportunistic predators." If animal prey wanders within its grasp, the plant will eat it. If no animals come near, however, the plant is perfectly happy to subsist purely on photosynthesis.
The humanoids of Plata hate stranglers with a passion, and have sometimes tried to wipe the entire species out... with little to no success. The aarakocra consider the red blossoms to be the greatest of delicacies, and sometimes will risk attacks from stranglers to snatch the flowers.

Originally appeared in SJR4 - Practical Planetology (1991).


----------



## Cleon (May 5, 2010)

Shade said:


> Sounds good!  Updated.
> 
> All done?




Its Reflex save should be +3 from its poor save, -1 Dex penalty and +2 from the feat.

You probably added Lightning Reflexes twice. I'd already allowed for it in my original draft.

Apart from that it looks good to go.


----------



## Cleon (May 5, 2010)

Shade said:


> *Strangler*




First impression is these are not that different from a Tendriculos, although their paralysing tentacles are a nasty addition.

I'd cut the size down from Gargantuan. They may have a 25 foot spread, but their central body is only a yard wide.

I'm thinking Large Plant. A tendriculos can probably spread itself about 45 feet wide (15 foot space plus its 15 foot reach to either side) and is Huge with 9 Hit Dice. This plant has a spread about half as wide and two-thirds the HD.

Downsizing a tendriculos would give us:

*Large Tendriculos:* Str 20, Dex 11, Con 18, Int 3, Wis 8, Cha 3, natural +6

That looks a good start. The strangler has eight tentacles, so I think I'd increase the Dex by 2 (which would also conveniently give it an AC that matches the AD&D version). It's also mindless, so Int drops to zero:

*Strangler:* Str 20, Dex 13, Con 18, Int --, Wis 8, Cha 3,  natural +6


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## Shade (May 6, 2010)

Fixed the clubthorn.

The suggestions for the strangler sound good.  It looks like they also have vulnerability to fire.


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## Cleon (May 7, 2010)

Shade said:


> Fixed the clubthorn.
> 
> The suggestions for the strangler sound good.  It looks like they also have vulnerability to fire.




I've just remembered something. The original description says an "old tree" has eight attacks, so shall we add a note.

Advancement: A Gargantuan or Colossal clubthorn can make eight slam attacks as a full attack.


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## Cleon (May 7, 2010)

Okay, here's a first draft of the Strangler. It's based on a downsized mindless Tendriculos with some of the tentacle text of a giant octopus.

I've added fire vulnerability as suggested by Shran.

The description's "It is unaffected by either darkness or bright light, and doesn't react  to sound or silence ... it will never attack a motionless creature that it  hasn't already captured with at least one tentacle." suggests it is blind, deaf and have tremorsense, which I've added in.

I've arbitrarily reduced the tentacle damage to 1d4 from the original's 1d8, since that fits the tentacle/tendril damage of a Large Giant Octopus or a Tendriculos reduced to Large. We can always reinstate them, but I'd prefer the 1d8 damage tentacles to be reserved for the Gargantuan version.

*Strangler*
Large Plant
Hit Dice: 6d8+24 (55 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 0 ft. (immobile)
Armor Class: 16 (-1 size, -1 Dex, +6 natural) touch 10, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+13
Attack: Tentacle +8 melee (1d4+5)
Full Attack: 8 tentacles +8 melee (1d4+5)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. (20 ft. with tentacles)
Special Attacks: Constrict 1d8+7, improved grab, paralysis, swallow whole
Special Qualities: Blind and deaf, camouflage, plant traits, tremorsense 40 ft., vulnerability to fire
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +3, Will +1
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 13, Con 18, Int --, Wis 8, Cha 3
Skills: ---
Feats: ---
Environment: Any plains?
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 4?
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 6-7 (Large), 8-12 HD (Huge); 13-18 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: —

*C**ombat*
Stranglers attack with their tentacles, which they use to   crush opponents before attempting to swallow them. A strangler can attack a single target with up to 6 tentacles.

Opponents can attack a strangler's tentacles with a sunder attempt as if  they were weapons. A strangler's tendrils are AC 13 and have 10  hit points each, but damage inflicted to a tentacle doesn't count against the strangler's normal hit point pool. If a strangler is currently grappling a target with the tentacle that is being  attacked, it usually uses  another tentacle to make its attack of  opportunity against the opponent making the sunder attempt.  The  creature regrows severed tentacles in 1d6 days. 
*
Blind and Deaf (Ex):* A strangler can neither see nor hear, so is not affected by attacks based on vision or hearing, such as a medusa's petrifying gaze.

*Constrict (Ex):* A strangler can automatically deals 1d8+7 points of damage with a successful grapple check.

*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, a strangler must hit an  opponent of any size  with a tentacle attack. It can then attempt to  start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of  opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can  constrict and swallow whole.

*Paralysis (Ex):* Any creature that a strangler constricts, swallows or hits with a tentacle must make a DC 17 Fortitude save or be paralyzed for *X* rounds. The save DC is Constitution-based.

* Swallow Whole/Paralysis (Ex):* A strangler can try to swallow a grabbed  opponent of a smaller size than itself by making a successful grapple  check. Once inside, the  opponent takes 1d10+5 points of crushing damage  per round plus 4 points of acid damage, as well as being exposed to its paralysis attack. A swallowed  creature can cut  its way out by dealing 20 points of damage to the plant's interior (AC  13). Once the creature exits, muscular action  close the hole; another  swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. A Large strangler's interior  can hold 2 Medium, 8 Small, 32 Tiny or 128 Diminutive  smaller  creatures.


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## Cleon (May 8, 2010)

Shade said:


> Sounds good!  Updated.
> 
> All done?




Sorry to issue another correction, but the clubthorn's Entangling Roots description has a "move-equivalent action action".

That's too much action for me.

EDIT: Oh, and there's a gap in the advancement. It goes 7-10 HD (Huge) and 12-17 HD (Gargantuan) with no 11 in the middle.

I currently prefer   7-10 HD (Huge); 11-16 HD (Gargantuan); 17-24 HD (Colossal) since it would mean a range of 4HD/6HD/8HD for Huge/Gargantuan/Colossal, assuming we still want to cap the Hit Dice at 24.


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## Shade (May 10, 2010)

I toned down the action (and made the other suggested revisions) of the clubthorn.


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## freyar (May 10, 2010)

Now is the clubthorn done? 

Strangler is looking good.  Actually, is there anything left to do?


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## Shade (May 11, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

I split up blind and deaf, since both are usually listed as separate abilities.

We still need a duration for the paralysis, but otherwise we're close to completion.


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## freyar (May 11, 2010)

Well, the tougher tendriculos has 3d6 rounds, but only for swallow whole.  How about 1d6 for this?  If it were just a smaller tendriculos, I'd probably go with 2d6 rounds, but I think we should reduce it more because of the tendrils getting paralysis too.


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## Cleon (May 11, 2010)

freyar said:


> Now is the clubthorn done?




Well, unless you fancy doing all the other sizes from a 2HD Medium Sapling to a 17 HD Colossal Ancient Tree?

You don't need to bother if you don't want to, since I've statted them up already.

Apart from that, the only bit that looks a bit off to me is spelling pummelling with one L, but I believe that's the fashion on your side of the Atlantic.


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## Cleon (May 11, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, the tougher tendriculos has 3d6 rounds, but only for swallow whole.  How about 1d6 for this?  If it were just a smaller tendriculos, I'd probably go with 2d6 rounds, but I think we should reduce it more because of the tendrils getting paralysis too.




Yes, 1d6 paralysis should be nasty enough.

Apart from that there's the following:

It's still got a question mark after "Any plains" in environment - I didn't know what the weather was like on the disk world of Plata.

"A typical strangler grows to x feet in diameter."

The text says they average 25 feet, which seems about right. Do we want a weight as well? Downsizing a Tendriculos would make them ~500 pounds, but they've got longer tendrils to I'd increase that weight a bit.

That'd give us "A typical strangler grows to 25 feet in diameter and weighs about 600 pounds."


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## Shade (May 12, 2010)

Here's what I could find on Plata:

*Plata* 
Type: Earth
Size: E
Shape: Disc
Sources: SJR4 Practical Planetology p46
Description and Notes:
        This discworld is dominated by the aarakocra, who are
spelljammer aware and call themselves sthe Chilterik.  They have no
world-spanning government, but when the humanoid fleets tried to conquer
Plata during the First Unhuman War, the aarakocra defeated them.  The
remnants of that fleet, orcs, goblins, and other humanoids, remain on
the planet.

It sounds like it is similar to Earth, so presumably has a variety of climes.   We might simply borrow the aarakocra's environment (Warm and temperate mountains).

Does that work?


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## Cleon (May 12, 2010)

Shade said:


> It sounds like it is similar to Earth, so presumably has a variety of climes.   We might simply borrow the aarakocra's environment (Warm and temperate mountains).
> 
> Does that work?




The AD&D Strangler has "CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Plains" so we'd better not use mountains.

How about adding the aarakocra's climate to plains and making it:

*Environment:* Warm and temperate plains


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## Shade (May 13, 2010)

Sounds good.  Updated.  It looks like we're finished.  That one was easy.  

*WEED GIANT*
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVE: //6"
HIT DICE: 8 (brain only)
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Incidental
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 arm strike
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-16
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Buffeting
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Hidden vulnerable part, weapons resistances
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Semi-
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L (12’ tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: VI/725 + 10/hp

This creature is not a true giant, but is actually a composition of several hundred strands of semi-intelligent seaweed. The weed giant is not rooted and, although it gains food in the manner that regular seaweed does (i.e., through nutrients in the water), it also feeds by entrapping creatures or other plants in its strands and decomposing them with its digestive secretions.  The weed giant then absorbs its victim(s) through its strands. In this manner, the weed giant is similar to an aquatic variation of a shambling mound.

Though composed of vegetable matter, the weed giant is an intelligent lifeform; it thinks and acts with the same instincts and drives that many animals do. The brain of this creature is at the center of its weed structure; it is from this point that the strands emanate. In order to kill a weed giant, a successful attack must be made against the creature’s brain rather than against its kelp strands. Attacks made against the creature’s brain are against AC 3; all other attacks are against AC 9, but do not effective hit-point damage to the monster, merely cutting away strands of weed which grow back in full in 1-4 weeks. The brain can be attacked at random 10% of the time (roll this chance before rolling to hit the necessary armor class); because the brain is mobile, it is virtually impossible to attack directly (in a nonrandom fashion).

In combat, the weed giant does 2-16 hp damage on a strike with its weedy appendages (“arms” or “legs”); if the creature misses, the displacement of water forces the victim away from the weed giant (a distance equal to 4-24.) unless a save is made vs. paralysis. This water buffeting can also be employed by the weed giant to deflect any missile fire from any engine smaller than a ballista. However, unless the missiles strike the brain, they cause no damage to the weed giant at all. All edged weapons (except magical) cause only half damage against this creature; blunt weapons cause no damage at all.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #116 (1986).


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## Cleon (May 14, 2010)

Shade said:


> Sounds good.  Updated.  It looks like we're finished.  That one was easy.




I'm thinking the "Once inside, the opponent takes 1d10+5 points of crushing damage per  round plus 4 points of acid damage, as well as being exposed to its  paralysis attack." in its Swallow Whole attack is a little clumsily worded. Perhaps change it to:

Swallow Whole (Ex): A strangler can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of  a smaller size than itself by making a successful grapple check. Once  inside, the opponent takes 1d10+5 points of crushing damage per round  plus 4 points of acid damage, as well as being exposed to the strangler's paralysis  attack. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by dealing 20 points of  damage to the plant's interior (AC 13). Once the creature exits,  muscular action close the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its  own way out. A Large strangler's interior can hold 2 Medium, 8 Small, 32  Tiny or 128 Diminutive smaller creatures.

Apart from that I'm happy with it.


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## Cleon (May 14, 2010)

Shade said:


> *WEED GIANT*




Okay, the tricky thing about this one is its "Hidden Vulnerable Part". The rest of it looks pretty straightforward.

Statwise I'm thinking we should base it on a Shambling Mound. That's already a Large 8HD Plant, so we don't need to do much to it.

I'm seeing the following:

Aquatic Subtype.

Swim speed 20ft.

Semi-Intelligent instead of a Shambler's Low Intelligence, so cut Int to 3.

Cut its natural armour to +6.

Immunity to blunt weapons or high DR/blunt?

The protection from missiles effect sounds like its creating a localised, watery version of a *windstorm*. Maybe do something with that.


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## freyar (May 15, 2010)

The first bunch of Cleon's comments sound spot on.

I'd go with maybe immunity to bludgeoning and DR X/piercing or magic (half damage mechanics strike me as a bit odd in 3.5), but I could just see just dropping the immunity too.

The watery windstorm bit also needs to push creatures.  So it needs to be based on high winds if we go that route.  I think we also had some vortex abilities we wrote up for some (maybe prehistoric) aquatic critters a while back that we could modify maybe.

The hidden brain makes me think of the "airy" ability that just created a miss chance for a creature with a lot of space between vulnerable parts.


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## Cleon (May 16, 2010)

freyar said:


> The first bunch of Cleon's comments sound spot on.
> 
> I'd go with maybe immunity to bludgeoning and DR X/piercing or magic (half damage mechanics strike me as a bit odd in 3.5), but I could just see just dropping the immunity too.




Something like DR 10/piercing or 15/piercing feels the best approach to me, since an attacker needs to penetrate to the core of the monster to actually injure it.



freyar said:


> The watery windstorm bit also needs to push creatures.  So it needs to be based on high winds if we go that route.  I think we also had some vortex abilities we wrote up for some (maybe prehistoric) aquatic critters a while back that we could modify maybe.




The way the original's written up perhaps we should split it into two special abilities, a "Water Screen" it can throw up to deflect missiles and some kind of "Wash Away" special attack that knocks back the target of its slam attack.

I'm not sure about the "Wash Away" only working if it misses like in the original monster.

Does the Weed Giant somehow hold onto its target if it hits, preventing the wave-force of its blow driving them away? If so, should it get Improved Grab?



freyar said:


> The hidden brain makes me think of the "airy" ability that just created a miss chance for a creature with a lot of space between vulnerable parts.




Give the core the equivalent of Total Concealment (50% miss), since the attacker doesn't know where it is in the body?


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## freyar (May 16, 2010)

Dividing the vortex stuff into two abilities is probably a good way to go.

Figured out one place we used this ability before: the monstrous daddy long-legs.  I think this is actually a good fit, with some renaming:


> Long-Legged (Ex): Since a daddy longlegs is mostly long, thin legs, its space/reach is much larger than its actual body. As a result, it is difficult to to attack the creature. Any melee or ranged attack directed at a daddy longlegs has a 20% miss chance. Even a true seeing effect is useless for determining where and how to strike the creature.



20% miss chance plus DR seem mean enough?  Or do you want full concealment in effect?


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## Cleon (May 17, 2010)

freyar said:


> Dividing the vortex stuff into two abilities is probably a good way to go.
> 
> Figured out one place we used this ability before: the monstrous daddy long-legs.  I think this is actually a good fit, with some renaming:




That seems fiddly. When I converted an *Opiliones* I just said you needed a 10 ft. reach weapon to hit the body or make a DC15 Jump check.



freyar said:


> 20% miss chance plus DR seem mean enough?  Or do you want full concealment in effect?




Anyhow, getting back to the Weed Giant. I thought about a 20% miss chance but the original AD&D gave attacks a 90% miss chance, so that just seemed too weedy.

Although I do like the idea of making some kind of skill check to reduce the Concealment...

*Concealed Brain (Ex):* Weapon attacks will only harm a weed giant if they hit its brain, which constantly moves about the core of the monster. Attacks have a 50% miss chance, or 20% if the attacker succeeds at a DC X Search or DC X Knowledge (nature) check to spot clues to the brain's current location. If the attack misses it simply cuts or bruises a few strands of weed, which causes no harm to the weed giant.

EDIT: Upon reflection, I'd prefer if the skill check cancelled out the miss chance. It just seems easier.

I'm not sure what to set the DC at. Since it's skill-based my original thought was 10+HD+stat or 15+HD+stat, but we could do the more standard 10+HD/2+stat. I'm not sure whether it should be Dexterity-based (since its brain's moving about) or Constitution-based (since it's a vital organ). I'm leaning toward 15+HD+Dex - which would make the skill check DC17 - but I'm not that strongly committed to it.

Revising...

*Concealed Brain (Ex):* A weed giant's brain is the only organ vulnerable to weapons, hits to any other part of its body only cut or bruise  a few strands of weed, which causes no harm to the weed giant. The weed giant's brain is buried deep inside its body and is constantly moving, giving it total concealment (50% miss chance). An attacker can ignore this concealment if they succeed at a DC *X* Search or Knowledge (nature) check - they must roll separately for each attack. The DC is [Dexterity or Constitution?]-based.


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## Shade (May 17, 2010)

I fixed the strangler with Cleon's suggestion.

The daddy longlegs ability was based on precedent from another freakishly long-legged creature, although I forget it's name now (one of the unique Realms baddies).

Anyway, the concealed brain bit seems a good start, but I'm not on-board for a skill check (imagine that!)   Other creatures that gain concealment due to motion/airy bodies don't allow skill checks to overcome it, so I see no reason to do so here.

For example...

Airy (Ex): Since a plague brush is constantly turning over and its anatomy is made up of a (relatively) small amount of plant matter and lots of empty space, it is difficult to know where to attack the creature. Any melee or ranged attack with a piercing weapon directed at a plage brush has a 20% miss chance. The blow or missle may pass through the creature's body without harming it. Even a true seeing effect is useless for determining where and how to strike the creature.


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## Cleon (May 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Anyway, the concealed brain bit seems a good start, but I'm not on-board for a skill check (imagine that!)   Other creatures that gain concealment due to motion/airy bodies don't allow skill checks to overcome it, so I see no reason to do so here.




That's OK, I'd be happy with a 50% concealment.

*Concealed Brain (Ex):* A weed giant's brain is its only organ  vulnerable to weapons. Any melee or ranged attack that hits a weed giant has a 50% chance of missing the brain, either passing through the body or cutting or bruising  a few strands of weed, which causes no harm to the weed giant. Even a _true seeing_  effect is useless for determining where and how to strike the creature's brain.


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## Shade (May 17, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

What, if any, of the shambler's abilities should we retain?

Constrict (Ex): A shambler deals 2d6+7 points of damage with a successful grapple check.

Immunity to Electricity (Ex): Shamblers take no damage from electricity. Instead, any electricity attack used against a shambler temporarily grants it 1d4 points of Constitution. The shambler loses these points at the rate of 1 per hour.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a shambler must hit with both slam attacks. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

Skills: Shamblers have a +4 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, and Move Silently checks. They have a +12 racial bonus on Hide checks when in a swampy or forested area.


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## Cleon (May 18, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.




The original weed giant only had 1 slam attack, not 2 like the current Homebrew.

However I think it works better with two slams.

EDIT: Oh, and it's still got "Temperate swamps" in Environment. We should change that to "Temperate or warm aquatic".:ENDEDIT



Shade said:


> What, if any, of the shambler's abilities should we retain?
> 
> Constrict (Ex): A shambler deals 2d6+7 points of damage with a successful grapple check.
> 
> ...




I like everything except for the immunity to electricity.

Improved Grab and Constrict is a good fit to their weedy limbs, and explains why if they hit with their attack they don't wash away their victim.

The skills look very apt for a plant monster that hides amidst seaweed, just change the "in a swampy or forested area" to "in an area of seaweed".


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## Shade (May 18, 2010)

Updated.

I guess we need to work on the "water buffeting" power.  Here are some sources for possible inspiration:

Water Jet (Su): As a standard action, an avenging spirit can create a tremendously powerful 30-foot line of water. Any creature in the area of the line takes 2d6 points of damage (Reflex DC 21 negates). A creature failing the saving throw must succeed on a Strength check or a Balance check (DC 10 + damage dealt) or be knocked prone by the force of the blast. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Vortex Maw (Ex): A mastodonsaurus can open its mouth so quickly that it creates a powerful suction. All creatures within a 15-foot cone must make Strength checks opposed by the mastodonsaurus's Strength check (+8 for a standard mastodonsaurus), with the same modifiers as a bull rush. If the mastodonsaurus beats a creature's Strength check result, it pulls the victim 5 feet closer to its jaws. For each 5 points by which its check result is greater than a victim's check result, the mastodonsaurus pulls the victim an additional 5 feet closer. The victim provokes attacks of opportunity if it is moved.


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## Cleon (May 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> I guess we need to work on the "water buffeting" power.  Here are some sources for possible inspiration:
> 
> ...




Of those two the second looks the closest. I was also thinking about borrowing a few bit from the Awesome Blow or Snatch feats.

We'll also need to come up with a good name for the ability.

How about this for a first draft:

*Expelling Wave (Ex):* A weed giant creates a powerful wave whenever it makes a slam attack, which can literally wash away its enemies. Each wave affects a 10-foot cone (15-foot for a Huge weed giant). If the weed giant's slam attack hits the attack's target is not  washed away, because the weed giant automatically uses Improved Grab to attempt a grapple. All other creatures within the area (including the slam attack's target if the weed giant missed) must make Strength checks opposed by  the weed giant's Strength check (+9 for a standard weed giant),  with the same modifiers as a bull rush. If the weed giant wins it washes the creature 5 ft. away, for each 5 points by which its Strength check is greater than an opponent's Strength check it washes the opponent an additional 5 feet further away.


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## Shade (May 19, 2010)

That looks like a good start.  Should the movement incur attacks of opportunity?


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## Cleon (May 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> That looks like a good start.  Should the movement incur attacks of opportunity?




Let's just say no, to keep it simple.

I wouldn't think the weed giant that makes the attack would be able to AoO the folk it washes away.


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## Shade (May 20, 2010)

Updated.

Retain the skills and feats of the shambler?

A weed giant's body has an x-foot girth and is about 12 feet tall when the creature stands erect. It weighs about x pounds.  (A shambler’s body has an 8-foot girth and is about 6 feet tall when the creature stands erect. It weighs about 3,800 pounds.)


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## Cleon (May 20, 2010)

Shade said:


> Retain the skills and feats of the shambler?




I'd keep the feats since they fit the Weed Giant just as well.

A shambler's Power Attack and Weapon Focus (slam) make sense but there's less point to giving them Iron Will, considering they have Immune to Mind-Affecting Effects. We could swap that for something else, like Stealthy.

That said, Iron Will seems to be a standard feat for Plant monsters, so I'd be OK with keeping it.



Shade said:


> A weed giant's body has an x-foot girth and is about 12 feet tall when the creature stands erect. It weighs about x pounds.  (A shambler’s body has an 8-foot girth and is about 6 feet tall when the creature stands erect. It weighs about 3,800 pounds.)




I think we'd better give it similar dimensions to a shambler. If we give it the same ratio or height to girth it'd be 12' tall and 16' across, which would probably make it Huge.

The description suggests their shape is rather mutable, since they're just a mass of weed. How about:

A weed giant's body is a loose mass of weed with a roughly humanoid shape. It is usually about 12 feet long when floating in water, but can gather itself into a compact mass with an 8-foot girth that stands about 6 feet tall. A typical weed giant weighs 3,800 pounds.


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## Shade (May 20, 2010)

Updated.

CR 6 like the mound?

Anything else?


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## Cleon (May 20, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> CR 6 like the mound?
> 
> Anything else?




Giving them the same CR as a shambling mound suits me.

The Update looks fine, except it's got an extraneous "This" in the first paragraph:

Weed giants are intelligent, carnivorous aquatic plants related to  shambling mounds.  This A single weed giant is composed of several  hundred strands of semi-intelligent seaweed. The weed giant is not  rooted, and is capable of both swimming and shambling along the  seafloor.  Although it can sustain itself off nutrients in the water  like most seaweed, it also feeds by entrapping creatures or other plants  in its strands and decomposing them with its digestive secretions, then  absorbing their remains through its strands.


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## Shade (May 20, 2010)

Updated.

*REKEIHS*
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1 (20% chance of 2-5)
ARMOR CLASS: 7 (body), 2 (tentacles)
MOVE: 3.
HIT DICE: 4-6
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 4 tentacles
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-10/1-10/1-10/1-10
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Multiple attacks
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Cold resistance
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Semi-
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: M (5’-6’ tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X. P. VAL.: 4 HD, III/110 + 4/hp;
5HD, XV/170 + 5/hp; 6 HD, 300 + 6/hp

The rekeihs (pronounced ree-KAYZ; the name is the same in singular or plural forms) is a carnivorous plant found in tropical swamps and other warm, damp areas, including some dungeons. It preys largely upon live animals, including adventurers who wander into its territory.

A rekeihs has four powerful legs that form its major root systems; these are used to draw nourishment from slain animal victims and, when necessary, from muddy soil. Although it is powerful, the rekeihs is a slow-moving creature with no jumping ability.

The four upper tentacles of the rekeihs are secondary roots that anchor themselves in mud when the creature isn’t moving. They are also used in combat and can drag slain prey toward the rekeihs. When attacking, the tentacles lash out and grasp a victim, wrapping partially around it; then the tentacles suddenly jerk free and the suction pads underneath each tentacle rip away at the victim’s skin. If the victim is using a shield, there.s a 25% chance that the shield will be pulled away by any one tentacle unless the shield bearer can roll his chance to open doors (based upon his strength).  Victims wearing armor of AC 5 or better will only suffer 1-4 hp damage per tentacle attack.

A rekeihs is able to attack four opponents at once and can direct up to three of its tentacles against any one single opponent. The main body and legs of a rekeihs are AC 7; the tentacles are AC 2. 

Growing from the top of the rekeihs’s head are vibration and auditory sensors, which can pick up any loud sounds within a 25’ radius of the creature. Each of the rekeihs’s four eyes have infravision out to 30’ and regular vision out to 120’. (Rekeihs are nearsighted.) Rekeihs are drawn toward moving light sources and will often attack illuminated beings at night. They take half damage from all cold-based attacks, but fire-based attacks do +2 hp per dice of damage to them.

Once a year, a rekeihs will reproduce using a slain animal or human victim. It will attach its four “legs” to the victim, though it will fend off attackers during this time with its tentacles if necessary. Within one turn, the rekeihs will have sent rootlets throughout the body of the victim; raising the victim from the dead is then impossible without use of a wish. The rekeihs will become immobile (except for its flailing tentacles during a fight). Within 3-18 turns after attaching itself to a body, the rekeihs will explode violently, causing 6-24 points damage to all within 30’ of it. This kills the rekeihs, but within 2-12 turns after this explosion, from 3-6 young rekeihs (each 1’ tall) will grow and separate from the body of the slain victim.

The young rekeihs will grow at an astounding rate; within a month, the (1 HD at birth) youth will have grown to adult size (4 HD). A new hit die is gained every month afterward until full adult size (6 HD) is gained.

The rekeihs has a bulbous shape with four stout legs and four tentacles-spaced even around the body. Above each tentacle is a single unblinking eye, and a wavy growth of filaments extend from the top of its head. The main body of the rekeihs is a dull, mottled green; the legs and tentacles are darker, turning to purple or even blue in older specimens. The eyes are dull black with green pupils.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #94 (1985).


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## freyar (May 21, 2010)

Well, the assassin vine is probably the closest in HD, so we could downsize one to Medium, giving Str 12, Dex 12, Con 12, Int —, Wis 13, Cha 9.  That doesn't seem quite right, since this should have good Con and probably better Str and doesn't sound too dextrous.  How about Str 14, Dex 8, Con 16, Int 3, Wis 13, Cha 9?

Seems like it should have Imp Disarm as a bonus feat or else some kind of disarm attack. The reproductive death throes is maybe the most interesting thing, though.


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## Shade (May 21, 2010)

Downsizing a tendriculos to Medium:
Str 12, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 3, Wis 8, Cha 3

The vine horror is a bit closer to the rekheis in size and structure:
Str 18, Dex 10, Con 19, Int 9, Wis 13, Cha 10

So maybe boost freyar's physical scores a bit?

Say, Str 16, Dex 10, Con 18, Int 3, Wis 13, Cha 9?

And some form of disarm sounds like a good idea.


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## freyar (May 21, 2010)

Your abilities are fine, though I kind of like the idea of less Dex due to their slow movement.  Not a big deal, however.


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## Cleon (May 23, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, the assassin vine is probably the closest in HD, so we could downsize one to Medium, giving Str 12, Dex 12, Con 12, Int —, Wis 13, Cha 9.  That doesn't seem quite right, since this should have good Con and probably better Str and doesn't sound too dextrous.  How about Str 14, Dex 8, Con 16, Int 3, Wis 13, Cha 9?




The description really reminds me of a Phantom Fungus, so I'd use similar stats:

Phantom Fungus: Str 14, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 9

Hmm, that's pretty close to what Freyar's got, so could we compromise with:

Rekeihs: Str 14, Dex 9, Con 16, Int 3, Wis 12, Cha 9


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## freyar (May 24, 2010)

Let's see if you persuade Shade on the ability scores.


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## Shade (May 25, 2010)

Boost the Str to 16 and I'm in.


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## freyar (May 25, 2010)

Good deal, let's go for it.


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## Cleon (May 26, 2010)

Fine by me.

*Rekeihs:* Str 16, Dex 9, Con 16, Int 3, Wis 12, Cha 9

Let's see, what else is obvious:

Medium Plant
Hit Dice: 4d8+12 (30 hp)

Do we want to base its AC on its soft body or its tough tentacles?

What are we doing about its Shield disarming special attack?

Are we still giving them four 1d10 tentacle attacks? That seems rather a lot of damage.


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## Shade (May 26, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.



> Growing from the top of the rekeihs’s head are vibration and auditory sensors, which can pick up any loud sounds within a 25’ radius of the creature. Each of the rekeihs’s four eyes have infravision out to 30’ and regular vision out to 120’. (Rekeihs are nearsighted.) Rekeihs are drawn toward moving light sources and will often attack illuminated beings at night.




Low-light vision, combined with a racial bonus on Listen checks and racial penalty on Spot checks?



> They take half damage from all cold-based attacks, but fire-based attacks do +2 hp per dice of damage to them.




Resistance to cold 10 and vulnerability to fire?


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## freyar (May 26, 2010)

Let's boost the natural armor a little.  Maybe to +6 or +7 as a compromise between the two listed ACs in the original monster.

Agreed to the rest of Shade's suggestions.  

It looks like we cut down to 2 tentacles.  Sound good to everyone? 

Is Imp Disarm as a bonus feat sufficient for the disarming attack?


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## Shade (May 26, 2010)

freyar said:


> Let's boost the natural armor a little.  Maybe to +6 or +7 as a compromise between the two listed ACs in the original monster.




Sounds good.



freyar said:


> It looks like we cut down to 2 tentacles.  Sound good to everyone?




Oops.  I hadn't realized I'd done that, but I think it works.  4 at the most.



freyar said:


> Is Imp Disarm as a bonus feat sufficient for the disarming attack?




I think if will suffice.


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## freyar (May 26, 2010)

How about we go with 2 tentacles and add 2 more at the next size in advancement or something?


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## Shade (May 26, 2010)

Great idea!

Speaking of advancement, how big shall we have them grow?  I'm happy to go all the way up to Huge.


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## freyar (May 27, 2010)

Huge sounds good to me.

Put all the skill ranks in Spot maybe?


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## Shade (May 27, 2010)

Listen, right?   Because they have keen hearing and poor eyesight.


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## freyar (May 27, 2010)

Shade said:


> Listen, right?   Because they have keen hearing and poor eyesight.



Ahh, yes, that's right.


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## Shade (May 27, 2010)

Updated.

Suggested amount of Listen bonus and Spot penalty?


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## freyar (May 28, 2010)

Why not go +4 and -4?


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## Cleon (May 28, 2010)

freyar said:


> Why not go +4 and -4?




It's looking OK to me so far.

I'm wondering whether we should give it All-Around Vision, since it has four eyes, each on its own stalk.


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## freyar (May 31, 2010)

While there is some sense to that, the combination of a Spot penalty with All-Around Vision is dissonant somehow.  OTOH, it's just funny enough to do it!


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## Cleon (May 31, 2010)

freyar said:


> While there is some sense to that, the combination of a Spot penalty with All-Around Vision is dissonant somehow.  OTOH, it's just funny enough to do it!




Good point on the Spot penalty.

Their illustration in Dragon #94 doesn't show their eyestalks, by the way, but gives them big googly eyes set above their tentacles. Maybe their stalks can retract into the body?

I can only see 3 eyes, meaning the other one's "round the back". It does look like their eyes are set in a arc of well over 180 degrees, so All-Around Vision does look like a possibility.


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2010)

How about this?

All-Around Vision (Ex): A rekeihs's many eyes gives it a +4 racial bonus on Search checks, and it can't be flanked.

Myopic (Ex):  A rekeihs is nearsighted, resulting in a -4 racial penalty on Spot checks, and negating the usual +4 racial bonus on Spot checks attributed to all-around vision.

...or...

All-Around Vision (Ex): A rekeihs's many eyes gives it a +4 racial bonus on Search and Spot checks, and it can't be flanked.

Myopic (Ex):  A rekeihs is nearsighted, resulting in a -4 racial penalty on Spot checks made beyond 30 feet.


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## freyar (Jun 1, 2010)

Let's go with the second choice, but instead go with a -8 penalty, so the total is -4 (or spell out better that the +4 Spot bonus doesn't apply beyond 30 ft).


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## Cleon (Jun 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> How about this?
> 
> All-Around Vision (Ex): A rekeihs's many eyes gives it a +4 racial bonus on Search checks, and it can't be flanked.
> 
> ...




Combine the two?

*All-Around Myopia (Ex):* A rekeihs' four eyes are nearsighted, resulting in a -4 racial penalty on Spot  checks made beyond 30 feet. Its eyestalks let the rekeihs see in every direction, so it can't be flanked.


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## freyar (Jun 1, 2010)

No Search bonus?


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2010)

I'd rather keep 'em separate, for the reasons I've described in other threads:  common abilities are good to keep standard for purposes of qualifying for feats, applying templates, etc.


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## Shade (Jun 2, 2010)

So...

All-Around Vision (Ex): A rekeihs's many eyes gives it a +4 racial bonus on Search and Spot checks, and it can't be flanked.

Myopic (Ex): A rekeihs is nearsighted, resulting in a -8 racial penalty on Spot checks made beyond 30 feet.


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## freyar (Jun 2, 2010)

Works for me.


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## Cleon (Jun 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> So...
> 
> All-Around Vision (Ex): A rekeihs's many eyes gives it a +4 racial bonus on Search and Spot checks, and it can't be flanked.
> 
> Myopic (Ex): A rekeihs is nearsighted, resulting in a -8 racial penalty on Spot checks made beyond 30 feet.




That'd be OK by me.


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## Shade (Jun 2, 2010)

Updated.

I suppose it's time to work on this...



> Once a year, a rekeihs will reproduce using a slain animal or human victim. It will attach its four “legs” to the victim, though it will fend off attackers during this time with its tentacles if necessary. Within one turn, the rekeihs will have sent rootlets throughout the body of the victim; raising the victim from the dead is then impossible without use of a wish. The rekeihs will become immobile (except for its flailing tentacles during a fight). Within 3-18 turns after attaching itself to a body, the rekeihs will explode violently, causing 6-24 points damage to all within 30’ of it. This kills the rekeihs, but within 2-12 turns after this explosion, from 3-6 young rekeihs (each 1’ tall) will grow and separate from the body of the slain victim.


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## Cleon (Jun 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> I suppose it's time to work on this...
> 
> ...




Hold on, how does it reproduce once a year _when it kills itself in the process?!_

Hmm, maybe it doesn't always kill the rekeihs because it's the corpse that explodes, not the rekeihs?

Something like:

*Explosive Spawning (Ex):* If a rekeihs kills a creature of its own size or greater it can use the body to reproduce. The rekeihs attaches its four legs to the corpse, the attached rekeih can not move away from the corpse but may fight normally. The rekeih sends rootlets throughout the body, after [*1 minute?*] the rootlets have so damaged the body it can not be returned to life by a _raise dead_ spell, after [*2d6 minutes?*] the corpse explodes, causing 6d4 damage to everything within a 30 ft. burst (including the rekeihs). 1d6 minutes later, 1d4+2 baby rekeihs emerge from the remains of the body. The parent rekeihs must wait a year before it can use Explosive Spawning again, assuming it survived the explosion.


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## Shade (Jun 3, 2010)

I think it is pretty clear that the parent is killed in the explosion.  I think it was just poorly worded.   Remember, "rekeihs" is both the singular and plural form, so I think they were implying that the whole species reproduce at one time during the year.


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## freyar (Jun 3, 2010)

I agree with Shade on the wording for this.  Let's try

Explosive Spawning (Ex): If a rekeihs kills a creature of its own size or greater it can use the body to reproduce. The rekeihs attaches its four legs to the corpse, so the attached rekeihs can not move away from the corpse but may fight normally. The rekeih sends rootlets throughout the body. After [1 minute?] the rootlets have so damaged the body it can not be returned to life by a raise dead spell, and after [2d6 minutes?] the rekeihs explodes, dying and causing 6d4 damage to everything within a 30 ft. burst. 1d6 minutes later, 1d4+2 baby rekeihs emerge from the remains of the rekeihs and corpse.

I think I'd simplify the raise dead bit to just after the explosion, but it's ok as is.


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## Shade (Jun 3, 2010)

It looks like we might have to stat up the baby rekeihs with this approach.


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## freyar (Jun 3, 2010)

Any way we can do a quick version of them (just an underbar)?


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## Shade (Jun 3, 2010)

Sure!  I see no reason to give 'em a full stat block.

If their numbers weren't so few, I'd recommend a swarm.


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## freyar (Jun 4, 2010)

Why don't we just say they're each 1HD, Small, and have 1 tentacle?  Then the DM can "deadvance" them as needed.

Do you agree with combining the "raise dead time limit" and the explosion time?


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## Shade (Jun 4, 2010)

Agreed to all that.


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## freyar (Jun 4, 2010)

Revising:

Explosive Spawning (Ex): If a rekeihs kills a creature of its own size or greater it can use the body to reproduce. The rekeihs attaches its four legs to the corpse, so the attached rekeihs can not move away from the corpse but may fight normally. The rekeih sends rootlets throughout the body. After 2d6 minutes the rekeihs explodes, dying and causing 6d4 damage to everything within a 30 ft. burst. The corpse is so mutilated by this process that it cannot be returned to life by a raise dead spell.  1d6 minutes later, 1d4+2 baby rekeihs (see below) emerge from the remains of the rekeihs and corpse.

Baby Rekeihs
Juvenile rekeihs have 1HD and are Small, with ability scores and natural armor determined by usual monster advancement rules.  They have only one tentacle attack but have the other special abilities and qualities (except explosive spawning) of a mature rekeihs.


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## Cleon (Jun 5, 2010)

freyar said:


> Why don't we just say they're each 1HD, Small, and have 1 tentacle?  Then the DM can "deadvance" them as needed.




I was going to make them 1 HD Tiny, following the usual halve HD per size step smaller, and give them two tentacle attacks.

Something like:

*Baby Rekeihs*
Tiny Plant
Hit Dice: 1d8+1 (5 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 10 ft. (2 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (+2 size, +1 Dex, +2 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-9
Attack: Tentacle +1 melee (1d4-1)
Full Attack: 2 tentacles +1 melee (1d4-1)
Space/Reach: 2.5 ft./0 ft
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: All-around vision, darkvision 60 ft., low-light  vision, myopic, plant traits, resistance to cold 10, vulnerability to  fire
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +1, Will +1
Abilities: Str 8, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 3, Wis 12, Cha 9
Skills: Listen +5
Feats: Improved Disarm (B), 1 more
Challenge Rating: 1/10

Although that is rather wimpy, so maybe making them Small would be better...

*Baby Rekeihs*
 Small Plant
 Hit Dice: 1d8+2 (6 hp)
 Initiative: +0
 Speed: 10 ft. (2 squares)
 Armor Class: 15 (+1 size, +4 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 15
 Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-3
 Attack: Tentacle +2 melee (1d6+1)
 Full Attack: 2 tentacles +2 melee (1d6+1)
 Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft
 Special Attacks: —
 Special Qualities: All-around vision, darkvision 60 ft., low-light  vision, myopic, plant traits, resistance to cold 10, vulnerability to  fire
 Saves: Fort +4, Ref +0, Will +1
 Abilities: Str 12, Dex 11, Con 14, Int 3, Wis 12, Cha 9
 Skills: Listen +5
 Feats: Improved Disarm (B), 1 more
Challenge Rating: 1/3



freyar said:


> Do you agree with combining the "raise dead time limit" and the explosion time?




I prefer the far shorter _raise dead _time limit.


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## freyar (Jun 6, 2010)

What if we then decrease the explosion time, which would make it more likely to happen with PCs around?  I'd much rather not have 2 times listed.

As for the babies, Tiny or Small is ok.  But since the adult only has 2 tentacles, I'd rather stick to 1 tentacle.  If you really want the stats, that's ok as long as the CC can handle that in the same entry/webpage.  Otherwise, just an underbar, I think.


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## Cleon (Jun 6, 2010)

freyar said:


> What if we then decrease the explosion time, which would make it more likely to happen with PCs around?  I'd much rather not have 2 times listed.
> 
> As for the babies, Tiny or Small is ok.  But since the adult only has 2 tentacles, I'd rather stick to 1 tentacle.  If you really want the stats, that's ok as long as the CC can handle that in the same entry/webpage.  Otherwise, just an underbar, I think.




The CC doesn't seem to have trouble with extra stats, there are several entries on it already with complete entries for separate creatures (e.g. some of the templates, lycanthropes).

I'm not sure why they'd have fewer limbs just because they're smaller. Most animals don't work that way!

If you want to keep the damage down we could keep the tentacles to 1d4 damage.

Before we go further, we'd better figure out what feats we're giving the adult and pick out  one of them to give the baby.

How about:

*Feats (adult):* Great Fortitude, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (tentacle)
*Feats (baby):* Weapon Focus (tentacle)

I'm definitely preferring the Small version of the baby Rekeihs over the Tiny one, so that'd be:

*Baby Rekeihs*
 Small Plant
 Hit Dice: 1d8+2 (6 hp)
 Initiative: +0
 Speed: 10 ft. (2 squares)
 Armor Class: 15 (+1 size, +4 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 15
 Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-3
 Attack: Tentacle +3 melee (1d4+1)
 Full Attack: 2 tentacles +3 melee (1d4+1)
 Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft
 Special Attacks: —
 Special Qualities: All-around vision, darkvision 60 ft., low-light   vision, myopic, plant traits, resistance to cold 10, vulnerability to   fire
 Saves: Fort +4, Ref +0, Will +1
 Abilities: Str 12, Dex 11, Con 14, Int 3, Wis 12, Cha 9
 Skills: Listen +5, Search +5, Spot +5* (-3 beyond 30 feet)
 Feats: Weapon Focus (tentacle), Improved Disarm (B)
Challenge Rating: 1/3


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## Shade (Jun 7, 2010)

Adding addtional stat blocks to an entry is no problem.  And since Cleon already did the work, I'm certainly agreeable to adding a full block here.  



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> What if we then decrease the explosion time, which would make it more likely to happen with PCs around? I'd much rather not have 2 times listed.




Agreed.  Multiple times is too fiddly.

I'm good with the rest, but not real fond of Great Fortitude.  Its Fort save is already fantastic. Anyone have a good replacement?


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## freyar (Jun 7, 2010)

The reason I want to stick to 1 tentacle is not just to reduce damage but because we're having them gain tentacle attacks at each size category, so it makes some sense to do that for the baby as well.

Shouldn't the adult only get 2 feats anyway?  You can just drop Great Fort.


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## Shade (Jun 7, 2010)

Yeah, that makes the most sense.

Updated.

Environment: Warm marshes and underground?

Organization: Solitary or x (2-5)

Challenge Rating: x

Treasure: x

Advancement: 5-x HD (Medium); x-x HD (Large); x-x HD (Huge)

An adult rekeihs stands x feet tall and weighs x pounds.


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## freyar (Jun 8, 2010)

Environment is good.
I think Cleon may have suggested copse for the org, which is ok for me.
Looks like CR 3.
Incidental?  1/10th coins; 50% goods; 50% items
I'll let Cleon fill in the rest.


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## Cleon (Jun 8, 2010)

freyar said:


> The reason I want to stick to 1 tentacle is not just to reduce damage but because we're having them gain tentacle attacks at each size category, so it makes some sense to do that for the baby as well.




I preferred giving them 4 attacks all the way up. We've already had a bunch of "grows more tentacles as size increases" monsters.



freyar said:


> Shouldn't the adult only get 2 feats anyway?  You can just drop Great  Fort.




For some reason I was sure they had 6 Hit Dice...

Oh I see, the original had 4-6 Hit Dice. That suggests it advances by 100-150% and 150-300% HD:

Advancement: 5-6 HD (Medium); 7-12 HD (Large)


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## Cleon (Jun 8, 2010)

freyar said:


> Environment is good.
> I think Cleon may have suggested copse for the org, which is ok for me.
> Looks like CR 3.
> Incidental?  1/10th coins; 50% goods; 50% items
> I'll let Cleon fill in the rest.




Incidental treasure is good.

I'd suggested copse for the strangle vine, not the rekeihs.

How about "patch", like a Violet Fungus?

We've already got a height of 5-6' from their _Dragon_ write up. They're of a similar shape to Xorn, which weigh 600 pounds, but they're made of woody material rather than stone so should weigh about half that much.

So "A rekeihs stands between 5 and 6 feet tall and weighs from 250 to 300 pounds"?


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## freyar (Jun 9, 2010)

That's all fine.

I too am a bit tired of the "growing more tentacles" routine.  If Shade agrees, I'm ok with going 2 for the baby and 4 for the rest.  But I'm also ok just leaving them as is.


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## Shade (Jun 9, 2010)

I'm fine with standardizing the tentacles.   

Updated.

Do the additional two tentacle attacks push the CR above 3?


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## freyar (Jun 9, 2010)

Well, I think they've got the damage output to be CR 4, but they're a bit squishy at 30hp and AC 15.  I'd call them a tough CR 3 probably.


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2010)

I think the babies should be boosted to CR 1/2, as they can equal the damage output of most 1st-level warriors.


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## freyar (Jun 10, 2010)

Yes, I think you're right.


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2010)

Updated.  

Finished?


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## freyar (Jun 11, 2010)

I think so, at last!


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## Cleon (Jun 12, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Finished?




Its Search should be +5 not +0 (1 from Wisdom, 4 from All-Around Vision), but apart from that it looks good to go.


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## Shade (Jun 14, 2010)

Search is Int-based, from which it has a -4 penalty.  

Moving on...

*Pilfer Vine*
FREQUENCY: Rare
No. APPEARING: 1 patch
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVE: 1" (main plant), 9" (vines)
HIT DICE: 1-10
% IN LAIR: 100%
TREASURE TYPE: See below
NO. OF ATTACKS: Variable
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4 per vine
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Strangulation
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Resistances to blunt weapons and cold
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Semi-
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: S to M
PSIONIC ABILITY Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: II to VII / 22
+ 1/hp to 2250 + 14/hp

Pilfer vines are sentient plants that have an unusual affinity for bright, shiny items. They are usually encountered in jungles or forests when wild, but the plant may also be found near a settlement or monster lair, for it otherwise would have little chance to acquire the items it has such an intense desire to filch. Why a pilfer vine “steals” is a question no one has been able to answer, as it will take things for which it has no possible use.

A pilfer vine is able to find shiny objects with visual organs located upon its broad leaves. The images that the organs receive are transmitted to its vegetable brain, which is surrounded by a tough mass of twisted vines. The plant is color-blind. Two mobile tendrils are possessed for each hit die that it has. These tendrils can reach out up to 5’ away and can lift up to 5 gp in weight per vine.

A pilfer vine’s base chance to steal any item from a being is 70%. Some of the modifiers to this chance are: victim standing still, 0%; walking, -20%; running, -60%; sleeping, + 15%. More modifiers can be devised if needed. A victim will notice the attempt if the die roll is 25% or more over the number needed to pilfer an item. Characters of 5th level and above have an increased chance to foil the attempt; subtract 1% from both the base chance to steal and notice the theft for each level over the 4th. Thus, if an 8th-level fighter was the victim, the base chance of a successful theft is now 70% - (8-4)% = 66%) and the person will notice the attempt on a roll 21% over what is needed. Tendrils can dig into pouches, backpacks, and the like to find items, and more than one tendril can help steal an item. Lifting an item from a victim takes 1 round per attempt. If the plant is successful in stealing a random item from someone, it will hide the item amongst the gnarled vines of the main plant.

A pilfer vine will attack only if attacked first. It can lash out with its whiplike vines, doing 1-4 hp of damage per strike and gaining one attack for each mobile tendril it possesses. Up to six vines may attack a man-sized creature at a time. A vine can take 5 hp damage from edged weapons before it is severed and becomes useless. These hit points are in addition to those of the plant’s central body. The plant.s structure makes it resistant to blunt weapons, which do 1 hp of damage plus magical bonuses per strike.

When a tendril’s “to hit” roll in combat is a natural 20, the vine has wrapped itself around the victim’s neck. The creature so hit takes 1-6 hp damage, and will continue to take this damage each round until the vine is broken (only possible by those with 18+ strength; use one-half of exceptional strength rounded up as the base number) or severed. A being with a 19 strength has a 75% chance to snap the vine, and 20 strength or greater means automatic success at breaking the vine. Fire (magical or non-magical) does double damage to pilfer vines. Because of this, a pilfer vine will never send its tendrils towards anyone carrying a torch or other heat source. A pilfer vine takes normal damage from electricity, but cold only does half damage and slows the plant’s movements by 50% for 2-5 rounds.

A pilfer vine’s treasure is hidden in or around the plant. It consists of treasure types Qx2 (gems of less than 500 gp base value), and 20-200 coins of various types. There is a 40% chance for the plant to have 1-4 pieces of jewelry, and a 10% chance for a small magic item (dagger, scroll in metallic case, glass potion bottle, etc.) to be present. There will also be various shiny items such as bits of broken glass, metallic darts, small mirrors, holy symbols, etc. from 5-20 in number.

Sometimes a druid or magic-user will grow and feed a pilfer vine, as well as supply it with shiny items, in return for the protection of his or her abode. Being semiintelligent, the pilfer vine will recognize its benefactors and not steal from them or their friends, if so instructed (though it takes time for the pilfer vines to understand that, even using speak with plants spells).

A pilfer vine is a large mass of tangled and twisted vines, not unlike those of a creeper. The vines of the plant are dull green or greenish-gray in color, while the leaves are broad and of green-brown coloration. Tiny, dark splotches appear on the leaves; these are the sensory organs used to see bright objects. The plant is almost always found coiled about a tree, column, post, or pillar.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #101 (1985).


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## Shade (Jun 14, 2010)

So, we've essentially got an assassin vine that focuses on theft rather than killing.  It sounds like an incredible Sleight of Hand skill, constriction that chokes (like a choker), but only on a critical hit(?), and is slowed by cold attacks.


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## freyar (Jun 14, 2010)

Have to agree with that.  Also, DR 5?/piercing or slashing.  

Seems like we have some choice for HD.  What would we like?


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## Shade (Jun 14, 2010)

I'd start 'em around 4 HD, like the assassin vine.


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## freyar (Jun 14, 2010)

Similar stats plus a little Int?


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## Shade (Jun 14, 2010)

Higher Dex, lower Str.  These things should be rather dextrous, methinks.


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## freyar (Jun 15, 2010)

Agreed.  Maybe +4 Dex, -2 Str compared to the assassin vine?


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2010)

Added to Homebrews, using the assassin vine as the basis.

However, I noticed that its size is listed as "S to M", so maybe we should downsize it a category or two, making the usual size changes?

Downsizing our current stats...
Small: Str 6, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 3, Wis 13, Cha 9
Medium: Str 10, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 3, Wis 13, Cha 9

Downsizing assassin vine stats (but maintaining Int 3)...
Small: Str 8, Dex 14, Con 10, Int 3, Wis 13, Cha 9
Medium: Str 12, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 3, Wis 13, Cha 9

The low Str makes sense, since it can only lift 5 gp in weight per vine.  By the same token, I favor the higher Dex values, since it is good at stealing.  So, I think I'm leaning toward the former set of scores (with possibly even more Str reduction).


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## freyar (Jun 15, 2010)

I also prefer the first set of stats, adn I could go down to Str 4 if you want, possibly accompanied by even more Dex.


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2010)

Sounds good.  Small or Medium?  (I can hear the voice of Cleon shouting "Small!" in the distance)


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## freyar (Jun 15, 2010)

Small, and maybe reduce the HD a little.


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2010)

Updated.

Put all skill ranks in Sleight of Hand?   +8 racial bonus on Sleight of Hand?


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## freyar (Jun 15, 2010)

Yes, and yes.  I'd think about suggesting Skill Focus (Sleight of Hand), but that's just silly with the racial bonus in play.  It's too bad we can't get them Imp Disarm.  How about Stealthy for that feat?

CR 1?


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2010)

We can give 'em Improved Disarm as a bonus feat, if you'd like.  It is thematically appropriate, after all.  

I'm not sure Stealthy is needed, with their Camouflage ability.



> Two mobile tendrils are possessed for each hit die that it has. These tendrils can reach out up to 5’ away and can lift up to 5 gp in weight per vine.




It looks like another one for the special Advancement underbar.  It also looks like I need to change the full attack line to include a second tendril.



> Tendrils can dig into pouches, backpacks, and the like to find items, and *more than one tendril can help steal an item*. Lifting an item from a victim takes 1 round per attempt.




Should we give it a circumstance bonus if it commits more than one tendril to a theft?



> If the plant is successful in stealing a random item from someone, it will hide the item amongst the gnarled vines of the main plant.




From the Sleight of Hand skill description:
You can hide a small object (including a light weapon or an easily concealed ranged weapon, such as a dart, sling, or hand crossbow) on your body. Your Sleight of Hand check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone observing you or the Search check of anyone frisking you. In the latter case, the searcher gains a +4 bonus on the Search check, since it’s generally easier to find such an object than to hide it. A dagger is easier to hide than most light weapons, and grants you a +2 bonus on your Sleight of Hand check to conceal it. An extraordinarily small object, such as a coin, shuriken, or ring, grants you a +4 bonus on your Sleight of Hand check to conceal it, and heavy or baggy clothing (such as a cloak) grants you a +2 bonus on the check.



> A pilfer vine will attack only if attacked first. It can lash out with its whiplike vines, doing 1-4 hp of damage per strike and gaining one attack for each mobile tendril it possesses. Up to six vines may attack a man-sized creature at a time. A vine can take 5 hp damage from edged weapons before it is severed and becomes useless.




Since its Str is low and grapple modifier sucks, perhaps a similar circumstance bonus on grapple checks as I suggested above?  Something like the mind flayer?

If a mind flayer begins its turn with at least one tentacle attached, it can try to attach its remaining tentacles with a single grapple check. The opponent can escape with a single successful grapple check or Escape Artist check, but the mind flayer gets a +2 circumstance bonus for every tentacle that was attached at the beginning of the opponent's turn.



> A pilfer vine takes normal damage from electricity, but cold only does half damage and slows the plant’s movements by 50% for 2-5 rounds.




Shall we include the slowed by cold bit?


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## freyar (Jun 15, 2010)

I'll agree to all that, and we can remind the DM about "hiding stolen goods" use of Sleight of Hand in either the flavor or tactics.  Well, then, for the last feat, maybe Improved Initiative to get the jump stealing stuff?

Do you think the new grapple bonus business should bump it to CR 2? It's damage is still pretty low.


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## Cleon (Jun 16, 2010)

Shade said:


> Search is Int-based, from which it has a -4 penalty.




Of course, I wasn't thinking straight.

In that case the Baby Rekeihs should have Search +0 as well.


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## Cleon (Jun 16, 2010)

Shade said:


> Sounds good.  Small or Medium?  (I can hear the voice of Cleon shouting "Small!" in the distance)




You must have precognitive hearing.

The original did 1d6 damage with "strangulation" (although it needed to hit with a 20 to strangle), so I'm thinking we should increase the constrict damage.

Also, shouldn't its -3 Strength penalty apply to its constrict?

So, maybe 1d8-3 constrict?

Oh, and it needs a racial bonus to grapple. Maybe +4 or +8?


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2010)

Constrict doesn't have to apply the Str penalty...I've seen it both ways.  (Can't find an example at the moment, though).

1d8-3 sounds fine, and yes to a grapple bonus.  

Updated.

Should we put the vine-sethering text in the tactics area, like octopi and kraken, or create a "vines" entry that includes that information, as well as the circumstance bonuses I currently stuck in the Skills entry?


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2010)

Let's drop the "slam" attacks and call them "vines" (or maybe tendrils).  Then put in the vines entry with the severing info, skill info, and a reference on the grapple bonus bit.


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2010)

Updated.

Does the vines entry look OK?  We'll need to fill in the x's.


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## Cleon (Jun 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Does the vines entry look OK?  We'll need to fill in the x's.




I'd cut out the "A pilfer vine gains a +2 circumstance bonus on Sleight of Hand checks  for every vine that it commits to a theft" bit.

Halflings have two arms and they don't get a bonus when swiping stuff with both hands!

If you want to allow a circumstance bonus, maybe have it apply if its grappling a victim with its other vine, since they'd be distracted by their efforts to extricate themselves.

4 hp per vine is probably plenty. Maybe 8 hp per vine for a Medium sized plant.


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2010)

True, but the halfling also has a different kind of mind, and didn't specifically call out such an ability in its flavor text.

Still, the bonus while grappling mechanic seems a good fit.   What say you, freyar?

4 hp/vine sounds good.  To simplify things for advancement purposes, have vine hp = 1/2 total hp (as 4 is to 9, rounded down)?  Or we can spell out the progression in the "Advanced Pilfer Vines" section.


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2010)

Let's go for the bonus while grappling mechanic.  There's a logic to it.

If we're going to add vines in advancment, let's put an underbar and just state the half total hp formula.


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## Shade (Jun 18, 2010)

Updated.

Environment: Temperate or warm forests and underground?

Challenge Rating: 1?

Treasure: 1/10th coins; double goods (shiny objects only); 50% items?

Advancement: 3-4 HD (Medium); 5-11 HD (Large); 12–14 HD (Huge)?


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## freyar (Jun 18, 2010)

Make it standard items, and I'll be happy.


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## Shade (Jun 18, 2010)

Standard works for me.  Updated.


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## freyar (Jun 18, 2010)

In the advancement section, there's a "slam" instead of "vine," but I think it's good to go.


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## Cleon (Jun 19, 2010)

freyar said:


> Let's go for the bonus while grappling mechanic.  There's a logic to it.
> 
> If we're going to add vines in advancment, let's put an underbar and just state the half total hp formula.




I'm not much liking that idea.

They get more vines as they grow, so a 14HD pilfer vine will have four times as many HP in its vines as in its body. Also, a big pilfer vine can have vines that are significantly tougher than a Kraken's tentacles!

I'd rather have it a fixed amount at each size category or something based on HD, like HD+2 hit points per vine.

Hmm, that would give a 14HD vine eight 16 hp vines (total 128 hp) and an average of 133 hp from its 14d8+70 hit dice.

That seems about right to me.


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## Cleon (Jun 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Environment: Temperate or warm forests and underground?
> 
> ...




I'd rather the Advancement was smoother, maybe 3-4 HD (Medium); 4-8 HD (Large); 9–14 HD (Huge) ?


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## Cleon (Jun 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> Standard works for me.  Updated.




That treasure suits me too.


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## Shade (Jun 21, 2010)

A fixed vine hp at each size category is fine, as long as we don't make the DM do the math.  So... Small = 4 hp; Medium = 8 hp; Large = 12 hp; Huge = 16 hp?

Updated.

Finished?


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## freyar (Jun 21, 2010)

Start the Large advancement at 5HD, and it's ok.

I'd be just as happy saying how many hp a standard pilfer vine's vines have and let the DM figure out how many he/she wants an advanced one to have.  After all, the kraken and giant octopus don't say how many hp their tentacles/arms have when advanced.


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## Shade (Jun 21, 2010)

True, but many DMs (myself included) will spend alot of time trying to "figure out the math", so we're doing a public service here.


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## Cleon (Jun 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> A fixed vine hp at each size category is fine, as long as we don't make the DM do the math.  So... Small = 4 hp; Medium = 8 hp; Large = 12 hp; Huge = 16 hp?
> 
> Updated.
> 
> Finished?




That works for me.

They look done apart from this passage, which seems rather clumsy:

"A mature plant consists of a main vine, about 20 feet long. Smaller  vines up to 5 feet long branch off of the main vine about every 6  inches."

Maybe "A mature plant consists of a main vine about 20 feet long, with smaller  vines up to 5 feet long that branch off the main vine every 6  inches or so." ?


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2010)

Revised and finished.


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## Cleon (Jun 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> Revised and finished.




Hold on while I look for something else to quibble about...

...blast it, can't find anything to correct.​


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## freyar (Jun 22, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Hold on while I look for something else to quibble about...
> 
> ...blast it, can't find anything to correct.​



Wow, amazing!


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## Shade (Jun 30, 2010)

*Giant Rainbow Plant*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate and tropical forests and swamps
INTELLIGENCE: Semi
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 7
HIT DICE: 6
THAC0: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: See text
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: See text
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See text
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Dazzling
SIZE: L
MORALE: Elite (13)
XP VALUE: 3,000

The giant rainbow plant has a woody, trunklike stem from which grow 5-20 branchlike leaves that each end in a knobby tip. The stem grows up to 10’ In height, with each leaf half the height of the plant in length.

Combat: Like the giant sundew, this plant has developed an awareness of its surroundings and is selective about its prey. It will not attack anything under 4’ in height. The leaves and the stem are coated in a thick mucilage produced by glands throughout the plant. This mucilage gives the plant a shimmering appearance during the day, and under intense light causes a nonmagical dazzling effect on those who view and fail to save vs. petrification.  The effect lasts for 1-4 rounds and makes the dazzled creature -2 on attack rolls.

Also like the giant sundew, the rainbow plant strikes with its leaves, with 1-6 branches lashing out at each victim within reach and striking for 1-2 hp damage from the knob at the end of each leaf. Each leaf adheres to the object struck, reducing the victim’s ability attack by -1 for every four leaves adhering to him. If the plant rolls a natural 20, the plant’s leaf struck the victim’s head, clogging the victim’s mouth and nostrils with mucilage. Suffocation results in 1-4 rounds unless the sap is dissolved with vinegar or alcohol, The leaves also produce a mild enzyme causing 1 hp damage per round per leaf unless the leaf is broken. The chance for breaking a leaf is the same as for opening doors, checking for each leaf separately. Fiery attacks and missiles do only half damage because of the plant’s mucilage covering. Blunt weapons do no damage.

Habitat/Ecology: The plant favors sandy soils under moist conditions, though it may die back during drought seasons, going into a dormant state until conditions improve. A few druids and wizards are said to keep such plants as guardians, but this is a very rare practice.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #167 (1991).


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## Shade (Jun 30, 2010)

While this clearly looks like a hazard, we could make it ambulatory like the Red Sundew in MM2 and make it proper monster.


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## Cleon (Jul 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> While this clearly looks like a hazard, we could make it ambulatory like the Red Sundew in MM2 and make it proper monster.




It doesn't look much like a hazard to me. It's got multiple attacks with special attacks and a special defence.

Speaking of that special defence, I'm wondering whether we should let it make its dazzle attack active rather than passive so it can use it when it's dark. We could justify it by making it some kind of bioluminescence? Either that, or it focuses reflected light at its enemies to dazzle them.

I'm having trouble seeing how it can half-blind people just by "shimmering".


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2010)

I'll happily support bioluminescence.


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## GrayLinnorm (Jul 2, 2010)

I just checked the Creature Catalog, and we've already converted this one.


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2010)

Well I'll be...indeed we have!  

Moving on...

*Giant Waterwheel Plant *
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate marshes
NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 6
HIT DICE: 5 (see text)
THAC0: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3-12
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: See text
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Suffocation/dissolving, surprise
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
SIZE: L to H
MORALE: Average (9)
XP VALUE: 2,000

The giant waterwheel is a rootless plant that floats just below the water’s surface, drifting with the currents. It has a single curved stem about 20’ long; 3-12 trapping leaves, resembling open clamshells, grow in whorls about the stem like spokes on a wheel. During high summer, the plant’s white flowers may be seen just above the surface of the water, borne up on narrow stems. Victims have a -2 modifier to be surprised, both underwater and on the surface, and might not detect this plant until they have blundered into it. 

Small items may be found buried in the silt beneath where a giant waterwheel floats. The traps open 1-2 days after prey has been digested, allowing indigestible parts to fall out.

Combat: Anything of small size brushing against any one of the many trigger hairs inside a trap causes it to close in less than a second. The lobes of the trap then press together, forcing the victim down to the bottom of the trap and forcing the water out, creating a hermetic seal that requires a successful bend-bars chance to break. Anyone caught inside the trap must act immediately, or he will be unable to brace himself to attempt to break the seal. The trap accepts small-size creatures up to halfling size) only; larger objects are released in the next round. Each trap has 2 HD and attacks accordingly. The body of the plant has 5 HD.

When closed, the trapping leaf begins secreting digestive fluids, causing 1-4 hp damage per round. Suffocation occurs in 2-4 rounds unless the victim is able to cut free with a small hand weapon by doing damage equal to half the trap’s hit points.  Attacks from outside inflict half their damage on the trap itself and half on the victim inside.

Habitat/Ecology: Considered by some to be an aquatic version of the giant venus flytrap, the giant waterwheel plant grows under the surface of the water in acidic marshes, in company with reeds, rushes, and other aquatic plants. It has no natural enemies and is so subtle a predator that few communities are even aware of it. Swamp-dwelling races sometimes attempt to move these plants around their island lairs in lakes.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #167 (1991).


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## Cleon (Jul 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> Well I'll be...indeed we have!




Oops! Well the Enworld version looks fine to me, so let's hop to the next.

The Giant Waterwheel reads like it's a kissing cousin of the Giant Bladderwort. Apart from being slightly smaller (fewer traps and lower body HD) its mechanics are very similar.


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2010)

That sounds about right.  Just make slight modifications to the Giant Bladderwort?


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## Cleon (Jul 3, 2010)

Shade said:


> That sounds about right.  Just make slight modifications to the Giant Bladderwort?




That suits me.


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## freyar (Jul 5, 2010)

Is there much of anything to change?  Could we just stick and underbar on the bladderwort?


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## Shade (Jul 6, 2010)

Sure, an underbar would be fine.  Suggested modifications?


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## freyar (Jul 7, 2010)

Ok, here's the bladderwort.  

I guess we should reduce size and hp, etc, and maybe drop the drowning and reduce the acid damage.  If that sounds good, let's work out values.


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## Shade (Jul 7, 2010)

That sounds good.

The Spot DC should probably increase to 25.

The text says it has 3-12 traps, so 3d4?

DC 15 Reflex save (instead of 20)?

1d4 acid?  Replace drowning with suffocation?

AC 10, 5 hp for traps?  AC 12, 30 hp for the main body?

A bladder can trap 1 Small, 2 Tiny, 8 Diminutive, or 32 Fine creatures?


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## freyar (Jul 8, 2010)

Agreed to all that, though I'd rather call them "leaf traps" instead of "bladders" for this plant.  Also, we should probably reduce the Str check to open the trap to 15 (I could see leaving it as high as 17 maybe).  Probably going to end up CR 2.


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## Shade (Jul 8, 2010)

Giant Waterwheel Plant (CR 2)
Considered by some to be an aquatic version of the giant venus flytrap, a giant waterwheel plant is a rootless water plant found floating in acidic marshes. During high summer, the plant’s white flowers may be seen just above the surface of the water, borne up on narrow stems. These carnivorous plants float just below the surface of the water, appearing to be a harmless mat of vegetation. It requires a DC 20 Spot or Knowledge (nature) check to notice the plant is dangerous. A typical giant bladderwort is 20 feet across.

Giant waterwheel plants trap prey inside trapping leaves, resembling open clamshells, which grow in whorls about the stem like spokes on a wheel.  Each plant has 3d4 trapping leaves, and each individual leaf occupies a separate 5-foot square. Anything of small size brushing against any one of the many trigger hairs inside a trap causes it to close in less than a second. The lobes of the trap then press together, forcing the victim down to the bottom of the trap unless he succeeds on a DC 15 Reflex save.  The water is forced out, creating a hermetic seal. The plant then releases digestive enzymes that inflict 1d4 points of acid damage per round to all organic creatures (or objects) trapped by the leaf. Note that since the leaf is hermetically sealed, any air-breathing creature trapped within it also risks suffocation. A leaf can trap 1 Small, 2 Tiny, 8 Diminutive, or 32 Fine creatures.

Each leaf trap is AC 10 and has 5 hit points.  A leaf's seal can be broken open with a DC 17 Strength check or cut open by reducing the leaf's hit points to zero (creatures trapped inside a leaf can only use light slashing or piercing weapon to cut their way free). Once a leaf trap is forced open all creatures trapped inside can escape.

Each leaf can only trigger its trap once per day. It takes two weeks for the plant to replace a destroyed leaf.

Damage to the leaf traps does not harm the plant.  To kill a giant waterwheel plant, its floating main body must be destroyed (AC 12, 30 hit points).


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## freyar (Jul 8, 2010)

Looks fine (and done).


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## Shade (Jul 8, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.  It has enough text to warrant its own entry, methinks.


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## freyar (Jul 9, 2010)

Looks done!


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## Cleon (Jul 10, 2010)

freyar said:


> Looks done!




Not quite, it's got "A typical giant bladderwort" at the end of the first paragraph.

I'm also thinking it doesn't rate Challenge Rating 2. Each trap only has 5 hits and does 1d4 damage. CR 1 would seem enough.


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## freyar (Jul 11, 2010)

Well, that's fair enough.


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## Shade (Jul 12, 2010)

Works for me.  Updated.


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## freyar (Jul 12, 2010)

Done now?


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## Cleon (Jul 14, 2010)

freyar said:


> Done now?




I think so.


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2010)

*Bloodflower*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate and subtropical marshes and jungles
FREQUENCY: Rare
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
NO. APPEARING: See text
ARMOR CLASS: 10
HIT DICE: 1 hp per bloom
THAC0: 20
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: See text
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Narcotic perfume, blood drain
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
SIZE: S (1’-tall bush)
MORALE: Average (9)
XP VALUE: 65

The blooms of the bloodflower plant are a pale, almost translucent, white. As the plant feeds, the petals become slowly pink, eventually flushing to a deep, rich red. After four turns, digestion is completed and the plant is ready to feed again. The wild bloodflower grows in clumps of 2-5 bushlike plants.

Combat: The flower exudes a fast-acting narcotic perfume that is effective within a 5’ radius. Victims must save vs. poison or fall asleep immediately. If the victim falls within 2’ of the plant, the plant stretches out and attaches a set of 6” –long spiny underleaves to the victim's body. These leaves then drain blood from the victim, doing damage each round equivalent to the plant’s hit points. If the victim is not removed from the vicinity of the bloodflower, he remains unconscious and the plant continues to feed until the victim dies. If removed from the area of the plant’s perfume, the victim regains consciousness after one turn. Healing may occur in any normal fashion.

Habitat/Ecology: Because the plant blooms both day and night, the domestic species is sometimes used as a passive defense and may be found scattered about in flower gardens or in huge beds surrounding important buildings or cities. Individual potted flowers are kept in treasure rooms as traps for the unwary.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #167 (1991).


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## Mortis (Jul 21, 2010)

Shade said:


> *Bloodflower*



Reminds me of the vampire rose or vampire vine  with the addition of the narcotic perfume.

Regards
Mortis


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## Cleon (Jul 21, 2010)

Shade said:


> *Bloodflower*




Hmm, we could do these as a hazard but I know Shade'll prefer a monster.

So, a Tiny Plant with Blood Drain and narcovenom?

Does each plant have a single bloom?

If so, the "The wild bloodflower grows in clumps of 2-5 bushlike plants" would suggest   [FONT=&quot]½[/FONT]d8+1 for the Hit Dice.

I'm thinking we should borrow some stuff from the SRD Stirge:

How's this for a start:

Bloodflower
Tiny Plant
Armor Class: 10 (+2 size, -2 Dex), touch 10, flat-footed 10
Hit Dice: [FONT=&quot]½[/FONT]d8+1 (3)
Special Attacks: Attach, blood drain, poison
Special Qualities: Blind, mindless, tremorsense 10 ft.
Abilities: Str 3, Dex 6, Con 13, Int —, Wis 8, Cha 6

*Attach (Ex):* If a bloodflower hits with a tendril attack, it uses its thorns and suckers to latch onto the opponent’s body. An attached bloodflower is effectively grappling its prey. Bloodflower  have a +12 racial bonus on grapple checks (already figured into the Base Attack/Grapple entry above).

An attached bloodflower can be struck with a weapon or grappled itself. To remove an attached bloodflower through grappling, the opponent must achieve a pin against the bloodflower.

*Blood Drain (Ex):* A bloodflower drains blood, dealing X points of Constitution damage in any round when it begins its turn attached to a victim. A bloodflower will continue draining blood until its victim dies or it it is removed from its victim.


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2010)

I'm so predictable.  

1/2d8+1 sounds good.


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## freyar (Jul 22, 2010)

Looks like a pretty good start, and it may not really need anything else.


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## Cleon (Jul 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> Looks like a pretty good start, and it may not really need anything else.




Yes, it's a pretty simple monster.

I'll flesh it out some more:

I'll give it a 5 ft. reach since it can attack victims overcome by its 5-foot radius poison cloud. Speaking of which, should we tweak the name of that attack?

Narcotic Cloud? Poison Cloud? Sedating Perfume?

I like Narcotic Perfume.

Do we want to give it some Camouflage so people will wander close to it without realizing it's a threat?

*Bloodflower*
Tiny Plant
Hit Dice: ½d8+1 (3 hp)
Initiative: -2
Speed: 0 ft. (immobile)
Armor Class: 10 (+2 size, -2 Dex), touch 10, flat-footed 10
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-12
Attack: Tendril -2 touch (attach)
Full Attack: Tendril -2 touch (attach)
Space/Reach: 2½ ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Attach, blood drain, narcotic perfume
Special Qualities: Blind, camouflage?, mindless, tremorsense 10 ft.
Saves: Fort +3, Ref -2, Will +5
Abilities: Str 3, Dex 6, Con 13, Int —, Wis 8, Cha 6
Skills: —
Feats: —
Environment: Temperate or warm forests and swamps
Organization: Solitary or clump (2-5) ?
Challenge Rating: ?
Treasure: Incidental, like a spider ?
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: ?
Level Adjustment: —

*Attach  (Ex):* If a bloodflower hits with a tendril attack, it uses its  thorns and suckers to latch onto the opponent’s body. An attached  bloodflower is effectively grappling its prey. Bloodflower  have a +12  racial bonus on grapple checks (already figured into the Base  Attack/Grapple entry above).

 An attached bloodflower can be struck with a weapon or grappled itself.  To remove an attached bloodflower through grappling, the opponent must  achieve a pin against the bloodflower.

*Blind (Ex):* [use the standard description]

*Blood Drain (Ex):*  A bloodflower drains blood, dealing X points of Constitution damage in  any round when it begins its turn attached to a victim. A bloodflower  will continue draining blood until its victim dies or it it is removed  from its victim. 	

*Camoflage (Ex):* [use the standard description with DC20 and Knowledge (nature) or Survival as substitute skills for Spot?]

*Mindless (Ex):* [use the standard description]

*Narcotic Perfume (Ex):* Bloodflowers constantly produce a perfumed sedative gas. Any creature that comes within a 5 foot radius of the plant must succeed at a DC X Fortitude save every round or fall unconscious for Y minutes.


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## Shade (Jul 22, 2010)

Narcotic perfume appeals.

No need for a "mindless" entry.  It is assumed with Int -.

The proposed organization, treasure, and giving it camouflage all appeal.

Why is it blind?  I didn't see anything in the original writeup, unless I missed it.

Added to Homebrews.


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## Cleon (Jul 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> Why is it blind?  I didn't see anything in the original writeup, unless I missed it.




No, there's nothing to specify it's blind in the original writeup, but then there's nothing saying it has eyes either.

It just seemed more appropriate making it sightless. I'd be OK swapping the tremorsense to blindsight if you are worried about the miss chance.


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## Cleon (Jul 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> Narcotic perfume appeals.




Thanks. So, what duration do you fancy for the sleepy-time? The original says it lasts a turn, which is 10 rounds. Shall we keep that, or have a randomised equivalent with a similar average like 2d4+5 rounds or 3d6 rounds?

What blood drain rate do you fancy. 1d4 Con like a Stirge?

The original drains 2-5 hits per round, which is more than the AD&D Stirge's 1-4, but I feel 1d4 Con is OK.


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## Shade (Jul 23, 2010)

Let's stick with low-light vision like most plants, plus tremorsense.

1d4 Con and 2d4+5 rounds appeal.


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## freyar (Jul 25, 2010)

I'd agree with Shade about keeping it like most plants.  But it's looking pretty good!


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## Cleon (Jul 26, 2010)

freyar said:


> I'd agree with Shade about keeping it like most plants.  But it's looking pretty good!




But most plants are blind, it's Plants that can see...

Well if you both want them to have low-light vision I'll go along.

It doesn't seem to be worth arguing over.


----------



## Shade (Jul 26, 2010)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: 1/2?

Advancement: —


----------



## Cleon (Jul 27, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Challenge Rating: 1/2?
> 
> Advancement: —




Yes, those look reasonable.

I was tempted to allow for "giant bloodflowers" that can grow as large as a man, but I think we decided we should leave them Tiny.


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## Shade (Jul 28, 2010)

Updated.

Here's the next one...

*Sword Grass*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Shaded areas of marshes and swamps
NO. APPEARING: 1-6
ARMOR CLASS: See text
HIT DICE: 1
THAC0: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1-8
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: See text
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See text
SIZE: S-M
MORALE: Average (9)
XP VALUE: 175

Sword grass grows in clumps of 1-6 green plants, each plant appearing to be 1-8 huge blades of grass (1‘-6’ tall) growing up from a central spot on the ground. The main stalk of each plant lies 1’ underground and is treated as 100% concealed against anyone trying to destroy it without first digging it up.

Combat: The main body of the plant has hit points equal to the total number of blades it has. Each leaf also has 1 hp, but these hit points are in addition to those each plant already has, and destroying the leaf blades does not cause the death of the plant. Damage is incurred upon walking through patches of sword grass. The leaf blades are amazingly strong (AC 8) and extremely sharp; the body is AC 10 (AC 0 underground). Collective damage occurs as the blades slash at whatever passes through them. Damage varies according to the height of the blades (1’, 1-4 hp; 2’-3’, 1-6 hp; 4’-5’, 1-8 hp; 6’, 1-10 hp). Blades attack as 1 HD monsters.

Blunt weapons and thrusting weapons do not harm the plant. The blades may be uprooted, but if precautions are not taken to protect one’s hands, maximum damage is automatic. The blades may be burned but will grow back at the rate of 6” a week. 

Habitat/Ecology: Sword grass is not a true grass, but is closely related to ferns and mushrooms. It reproduces by spores, and the plant’s “blades” grow from a central underground rhizome. Sword grass is a perennial; the leaf blades die during cold weather, and the root stalk goes dormant, becoming active again in spring.  The usual prey for sword grass is small animals, with the plant using blood and decaying bodies to supplement its diet.  Some people grow plots of sword grass in place of moats or in addition to them; sword grass has also been used to form defensive lines around farms and military bases.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #167 (1991).


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## Cleon (Jul 28, 2010)

Shade said:


> *Sword Grass*




I'm afraid this looks more like a hazard than a monster Shade, seeing as it's no threat to someone who just walks around it.


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## Shade (Jul 28, 2010)

I'm OK with that.


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## freyar (Jul 29, 2010)

I almost wonder if it's even worth the AC and hp!  Anyway, what damage do we want to make the default?  Another comment: I'd take out the attack roll for the plant and make it automatic damage for anyone walking through (or maybe a Ref save).


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## Shade (Jul 29, 2010)

Good points.  I think Reflex save makes the most sense in this case.


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## freyar (Jul 30, 2010)

Go with maybe 1d6/round, Ref negates?


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## Cleon (Jul 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> Good points.  I think Reflex save makes the most sense in this case.




I agree.

Let's start roughing it out:
*
Sword Grass* (CR 1?)
These dangerous plants grow a spray of leaf-blades from an underground stalk, These leaves are several feet long and razor sharp, but otherwise resemble ordinary long grass. A standard patch of sword grass has 1d6 stalks each occupying its own 5-ft square, but larger patches are not uncommon. A 5-ft square spray of sword grass has 5 hit points and can be cut down  (AC 12, DR 5/slashing) or burned away. The sword grass will grow back with  1d3 weeks unless the plant's stalk and roots are pulled or dug out from  the ground.

It requires a successful DC [20?] check against Spot or Knowledge (nature) to recognize a patch of sword grass as a threat. Any creature that unknowingly moves into a square of sword grass it takes [1d8?] slashing damage, halved with a successful DC [15?] Reflex save. A creature that knows a 5-ft square contains sword grass can move through it slowly and carefully, taking no damage if they succeed at a DC [15?] Reflex save or a DC [15?] check using their [Escape Artist or Tumble] skill, or [1d4?] slashing damage if they fail - such movement uses the rules for hampered movement. Any creature biting or grabbing a spray of sword grass (to uproot it, for example) automatically takes [1d8?] slashing damage with no saving throw.


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## Shade (Jul 30, 2010)

I'd recommend DR/slashing to harm it.


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## Cleon (Jul 31, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'd recommend DR/slashing to harm it.




That makes sense, I'll amend it.

Anything else?


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## freyar (Aug 1, 2010)

Those numbers look pretty good!  I could see dropping the Spot/Know DC slightly, but it's ok.  One other possibility: I don't get a Ref save feel from moving carefully through the grass.  Want to change that to a Dex check or maybe Tumble or Balance skill check?


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## Cleon (Aug 1, 2010)

freyar said:


> Those numbers look pretty good!  I could see dropping the Spot/Know DC slightly, but it's ok.  One other possibility: I don't get a Ref save feel from moving carefully through the grass.  Want to change that to a Dex check or maybe Tumble or Balance skill check?




A Dex check would always have a lower modifier than a Reflex save, so I would rather keep the Reflex save.

Like the idea of adding a Balance or Tumble check. Escape Artist could also work.


----------



## freyar (Aug 2, 2010)

Well, if you used a Dex check, you'd lower the DC.  Let's at least add a skill check as an alternative to the Ref save.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 2, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, if you used a Dex check, you'd lower the DC.  Let's at least add a skill check as an alternative to the Ref save.




Yes, but then you'd either have a ridiculously easy skill check DC or you'd need a separate DC for the skills.

I'll stick to Ref for the time being.

I'll revise it.

EDIT: *Updated*

Thinking it over, I'm not sure Balance is such a good fit, I left it at Escape Artist and Tumble.


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## freyar (Aug 4, 2010)

How about we drop the Ref save and Escape Artist and just leave it with Tumble?  The reason I don't like the Ref save is that Ref saves are, well, unconscious reflexes, whereas picking your way through sword grass is intentional.  I think a skill check fits better.


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## Cleon (Aug 5, 2010)

freyar said:


> How about we drop the Ref save and Escape Artist and just leave it with Tumble?  The reason I don't like the Ref save is that Ref saves are, well, unconscious reflexes, whereas picking your way through sword grass is intentional.  I think a skill check fits better.




I see no evidence in the rules that Reflex saves are only unconscious. It's just a measure of how good a character is at ducking out of the way, so I would keep it in.

Plus, I like the Escape Artist, since that covers squeezing through difficult-to-navigate areas, like the narrow gap between razor-sharp grass blades!


----------



## Shade (Aug 5, 2010)

I agree that a skill check is a better fit, and like both Escape Artist and Tumble.


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## Cleon (Aug 5, 2010)

Shade said:


> I agree that a skill check is a better fit, and like both Escape Artist and Tumble.




So where are you on the great Dex/Ref controversy?


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2010)

Cleon said:


> So where are you on the great Dex/Ref controversy?




I'm anti-Reflex save, and prefer Dex-based skill checks (Escape Artist and/or Tumble) to a straight Dex check.


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## Cleon (Aug 6, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'm anti-Reflex save, and prefer Dex-based skill checks (Escape Artist and/or Tumble) to a straight Dex check.




Well I'll go along with that so long as we drop the Dex check. I don't see the point to it, since Escape Artist can be used untrained.

Revising... (note I assumed the DC15 for the Escape/Tumble checks was OK)
*
Sword Grass* (CR 1)
These dangerous plants grow a spray of leaf-blades from an underground  stalk, These leaves are several feet long and razor sharp, but otherwise  resemble ordinary long grass. A standard patch of sword grass has 1d6  stalks each occupying its own 5-ft square, but larger patches are not  uncommon. A 5-ft square spray of sword grass has 5 hit points and can be  cut down  (AC 12, DR 5/slashing) or burned away. The sword grass will  grow back with  1d3 weeks unless the plant's stalk and roots are pulled  or dug out from  the ground.

It requires a successful DC 20 check against Spot or Knowledge  (nature) to recognize a patch of sword grass as a threat. Any creature  that unknowingly moves into a square of sword grass it takes 1d8  slashing damage, halved with a successful DC 15 Reflex save. A  creature that knows a 5-ft square contains sword grass can move through  it slowly and carefully, taking no damage if they succeed at a DC 15 check using their Escape Artist or Tumble  skill, or 1d4 slashing damage if they fail - such movement uses the  rules for hampered movement. Any creature biting or grabbing a spray of  sword grass (to uproot it, for example) automatically takes 1d8  slashing damage with no saving throw.


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## freyar (Aug 6, 2010)

If that's settled, let's look at the numbers.  I like the numbers Cleon already has, so I'd say it's about done.  CR 1 is probably about right, too.

Edit: ninja'ed by Cleon!  Looks done to me.


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

I removed the other Reflex save, as I see it as simply being hit by a sword.  It's not like something is thrown at the victim or explodes in their vicinity...they simply walk into something sharp and get cut.

If you both feel strongly about keeping it, I'll put it back.  But at CR 1, I think the equivalent of being hit by a longsword wielded by a creature with no Strength bonus doesn't need to be halved.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 6, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> I removed the other Reflex save, as I see it as simply being hit by a sword.  It's not like something is thrown at the victim or explodes in their vicinity...they simply walk into something sharp and get cut.
> 
> If you both feel strongly about keeping it, I'll put it back.  But at CR 1, I think the equivalent of being hit by a longsword wielded by a creature with no Strength bonus doesn't need to be halved.




I suppose I can go along with the no Ref save.

Just spotted the stray it in "Any creature  that unknowingly moves into a square of sword grass *it *takes 1d8  slashing damage". I did a lot of fooling around with that sentence and it got left behind from a previous version.

So, the Sword Grass looks finished to me.


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2010)

Next!

*Razorweed*
FREQUENCY Rare
NO. APPEARING: One patch
ARMOR CLASS: 0 on dry land, 4 in the water
MOVE: Nil
HIT DICE: 2 HD per square yard
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Incidental only
NO. OF ATTACKS: See below
DAMAGE/ATTACK: See below
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Destruction of armor
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Diffraction of water causes -1 to attackers’ “to hit” roll; see also below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 5%
INTELLIGENCE: Non-
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L (2d20 x 10 square yards)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil

Razorweed looks like normal aquatic grass, but both the sea and freshwater varieties are more blue in color than  their normal counterparts. A player character has a chance of noticing its saw-toothed, sharp edges by casual  inspection; this chance is equal to a percentile roll of 5% per intelligence point of the character. Anyone who deliberately examines the weed or who has encountered razorweed before has a 95% chance of knowing it for what it is.

Razorweed occurs most often in tropical seas and lakes, though occasional patches appear in temperate climates. A dry-land species that resembles a Spanish bayonet in size and shape is known as well.

Anyone falling or walking into a patch of razorweed suffers immediate slashing damage from the hundreds of bladelike leaves on the plant. This damage varies with the size and surface area of the victim. Human-shaped beings take 1d4 hp damage if they are 3’ or less in height; for every foot of height over 3’, an extra 1d4 hp damage is taken. Four-legged beings take 2d4 hp damage if 3’ high or less at the shoulders, and an extra 2d4 hp damage for every 1’ over that height.

All cloth, leather, and paper goods exposed to razor-weed attacks must save vs. normal blow each round or else be cut to pieces. Ropes and items of thin wood (½” or less in thickness) must also save or be destroyed. Leather and padded armor are reduced in AC value one step for each round exposed to this growth, and ring, scale, and studdedleather armor are reduced one step every three rounds they are in razorweed. Other armors are immune to this effect, as they cannot be so easily slashed apart. Any damaged armor remains in damaged condition until repaired by qualified armorers, tailors, and leather-workers (see page 29, DMG). Magical armor loses its magical powers if the saving throw noted above is failed.

Any treasure found in a patch of this material is purely incidental, left over from previous victims.  Treasure types J-N (x5), Q, and C (magic only) are suggested.  Patches of strangeweed (see the Monster Manual) often grow in and around razorweed, making for a deadly combination in certain oceanic areas.

Razorweed burns easily if dry, but wet razorweed takes only half damage from fire.  Submerged razorweed is, of course, immune to fire.  Razorweed is immune to lightning and electrical effects, but it can be chopped apart by bladed weapons.  Blunt weapons do not affect razorweed at all, and it cannot be affected by bare-handed attacks.  Destroying a square yard of this weed is sufficient to protect a humanlike being from further attacks (unless a new patch of razorweed is entered).  A horse-sized quadruped can be affected by up to 10 square yards of razorweed, or by lesser amounts if smaller.

Originally appeared in Dungeon #1 (1986).


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## Cleon (Aug 7, 2010)

Shade said:


> Next!
> 
> *Razorweed*
> FREQUENCY Rare
> ...




Okay, since this is Large how about making it an immobile swarm?

2 Hit Dice per square yard and 2d20 x 10 square yards means it has 40-800 Hit Dice - that seems awful high!

Shall we cut it down to something more reasonable, such as 11 HD? (11 being the average of 2d20).

I'm thinking the "AC 0 on dry land" is for the terrestrial species. Shall we do that as a sub-entry?

EDIT: ... or we could just make it a Hazard. It isn't that different from the Sword Grass.


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## freyar (Aug 8, 2010)

My first thought was that it seems awfully similar to sword grass.  I'd probably make it a hazard based on the sword grass.  Like we did with the sword grass, I'd ditch the victim-dependent damage, but I think I'd add in damage to equipment.  Any other thoughts?


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## Cleon (Aug 8, 2010)

freyar said:


> My first thought was that it seems awfully similar to sword grass.  I'd probably make it a hazard based on the sword grass.  Like we did with the sword grass, I'd ditch the victim-dependent damage, but I think I'd add in damage to equipment.  Any other thoughts?




Yes, I had decided to go for adapting the Sword Grass too.

I like the variable damage though, I was thinking of making it size-based.

Having it destroy equipment suits me too.

Something like:

EDIT: Upon reflection, I'd prefer the damage progression to match the normal size progression rather than use d4s like the original. My first draft used "targets up to Tiny size take 1d4 slashing  damage, Small targets take  2d4 damage, Medium 3d4, Large 4d4, Huge 6d4, Gargantuan 8d4 and Colossal  10d4" but I changed it to 1d4/1d6/1d8/2d6/3d6 et cetera.

Also, if it can slash away armour it needs some kind of hardness-penetrating ability. :ENDEDIT
*
Razorweed* (CR 2?)
Razorweed is a carnivorous aquatic plant that mimics normal aquatic grasses. Only a keen observer will notice the grass blades have razor-keen serrated edges. A patch of razorweed can be quite large, usually ranging from a 15 ft. by 15-ft. square to a field 60-70 feet across (a typical patch of razorweed occupies 8d20 5-ft squares). Each 5-ft square of razorweed  has 25 hit points and can be   cut down  (AC 16, DR 5/slashing). Razorweed has Spell Resistance *10*. Aquatic razorweed always grows underwater, so is immune to fire damage.

It requires a DC 20 check against Spot or Knowledge  (nature)  to recognize a patch of razorweed as a threat. If an object is thrown into the razorweed, the plant will automatically attack it for a round and thereby reveal itself.

Any creature or object that  moves into a square of razorweed will be slashed by scores or hundreds of knife-like grass blades, taking damage every round they remain within an area occupied by the plant. The razor-leaves are incredibly sharp, and ignore hardness of less than *12*. The damage they take depends on their size - targets up to Diminutive size take 1d4 slashing  damage, Tiny targets take 1d6, Small targets 1d8 damage, Medium 2d6, Large 3d6, Huge 4d6, Gargantuan 6d6 and Colossal targets 8d6. The razorweed continues to slash and vibrate its razor-leaves until all creatures standing on it are dead, have moved away, or the razorweed has been cut down. Razorweed will also damage equipment worn or carried by creatures standing upon it, usually doing 1d8 slashing damage per round to such equipment, following the normal rules for damaging objects.

*Terrestrial Razorweed:* There is a variety of razorweed that grows on dry land. This uses the same mechanics as above, except it is tougher (AC 20) and is not immune to fire damage.


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## freyar (Aug 9, 2010)

Hmm, there are a few things I'd change.

First off, 5% magic resistance should be SR: CR+2, not SR 10.

Next, where do you get the "carnivorous" and "attacks objects thrown in" aspects?  I don't see it in the original text, and it doesn't feel very hazard-like.

I'm not so fond of target size based damage.  I don't really get the rationale for it.


----------



## Shade (Aug 9, 2010)

freyar said:


> I'm not so fond of target size based damage.  I don't really get the rationale for it.




Agreed.  I know it was in the original writeup, but it feels odd.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 10, 2010)

freyar said:


> Hmm, there are a few things I'd change.
> 
> First off, 5% magic resistance should be SR: CR+2, not SR 10.




CR+2 is way too low.

A 5% AD&D magic resistance would give a 55% chance of blocking a spell cast by a 1st level spellcaster. In d20 terms that's a roll of 10+, or SR9. 



freyar said:


> Next, where do you get the "carnivorous" and "attacks objects thrown in" aspects?  I don't see it in the original text, and it doesn't feel very hazard-like.




Well I doubt they slash animals to ribbons just for fun.

They appear to attack anything that intrudes into their space, so it seemed pretty obvious to me that would include objects.



freyar said:


> I'm not so fond of target size based damage.  I don't really get the rationale for it.




Basically a larger creature has more surface area to be cut by the razorweed.

I did wonder about 1d4 damage per square of razorweed the intruding creature occupies.


----------



## Shade (Aug 10, 2010)

Cleon said:


> CR+2 is way too low.
> 
> A 5% AD&D magic resistance would give a 55% chance of blocking a spell cast by a 1st level spellcaster. In d20 terms that's a roll of 10+, or SR9.




I'll agree with you here.  While I generally find CR+x to work better, for really low CR creatures the standard conversion method [(magic resistance/5) +11] seems to work well.  That would be SR 12 here, but 9-10 suffices as well.



Cleon said:


> Well I doubt they slash animals to ribbons just for fun.
> 
> They appear to attack anything that intrudes into their space, so it seemed pretty obvious to me that would include objects.




Technically, they don't "attack" anything.  Things that fall into them get cut.  They're essentially variant caltrops.



Cleon said:


> Basically a larger creature has more surface area to be cut by the razorweed.
> 
> I did wonder about 1d4 damage per square of razorweed the intruding creature occupies.




Speaking of caltrops, we might look to them for inspiration:

Caltrops: Caltrops resemble large metal jacks with sharpened points rather than balls on the ends of their arms. They are essentially iron spikes designed so that one point is always facing up. Scatter them on the ground in the hope that enemies step on them or are at least forced to slow down to avoid them. One bag of caltrops (the 2-pound unit listed on Table: Goods and Services) covers an area 5 feet square. Each time a creature moves into an area covered by caltrops (or spends a round fighting while standing in such an area), the creature may step on one. The caltrops make an attack roll (base attack bonus +0) against the creature. For this attack, the creature's shield, armor, and deflection bonus do not count. (Deflection averts blows as they approach, but it does not prevent a character from touching something dangerous.) If the creature is wearing shoes or other footwear, it gets a +2 armor bonus to AC. If the caltrops succeed at the attack, the creature has stepped on one. The caltrop deals 1 point of damage, and the creature's speed is reduced by one-half because its foot is wounded. This movement penalty lasts for 1 day, until the creature is successfully treated with the Heal skill (DC 15), or until it receives at least 1 point of magical curing. A charging or running creature must immediately stop if it steps on a caltrop. Any creature moving at half speed or slower can pick its way through a bed of caltrops with no trouble.


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## freyar (Aug 10, 2010)

Cleon said:


> CR+2 is way too low.
> 
> A 5% AD&D magic resistance would give a 55% chance of blocking a spell cast by a 1st level spellcaster. In d20 terms that's a roll of 10+, or SR9.




I'm going by ye olde conversion guide...



> Well I doubt they slash animals to ribbons just for fun.
> 
> They appear to attack anything that intrudes into their space, so it seemed pretty obvious to me that would include objects.



The original text seems to me to indicate a passive damage done, like the sword grass.  If I thought it had active attacks, I'd have called it a monster!



> Basically a larger creature has more surface area to be cut by the razorweed.
> 
> I did wonder about 1d4 damage per square of razorweed the intruding creature occupies.




How tall is this stuff?  If I'm taller than it, it shouldn't much matter if I'm Small or Gargantuan.

EDIT: Caltrops are an interesting comparison...


----------



## Cleon (Aug 11, 2010)

freyar said:


> The original text seems to me to indicate a passive damage done, like the sword grass.  If I thought it had active attacks, I'd have called it a monster!




To my mind it doesn't indicate one way or t'other. I prefer a reflexive cutting action, just cause it's a more dramatic image. Since I'm imagining it as being a swarm-like "death by 1000 cuts" it wouldn't need an actual attack roll.



freyar said:


> How tall is this stuff?  If I'm taller than it, it shouldn't much matter if I'm Small or Gargantuan.




It doesn't say. But if you were Small you'd be standing in one square of it, but if you were Gargantuan you could occupy up to 16 squares - that's a lot more are to potentially cut.

Also, I'd presume some of the additional damage is because a bigger creature has a greater weight pressing down on the razor-leaves.


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## Shade (Aug 11, 2010)

> Anyone falling or walking into a patch of razorweed suffers immediate slashing damage from the hundreds of bladelike leaves on the plant.




That sure sounds passive to me.  If it were active, it would say something like "anyone within reach of its blades" or somesuch.

If we're going with size-based damage, I'm going to insist on a caltrop-like approach.  Otherwise, it's breaking far too many precedents for my tastes.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 11, 2010)

Shade said:


> That sure sounds passive to me.  If it were active, it would say something like "anyone within reach of its blades" or somesuch.
> 
> If we're going with size-based damage, I'm going to insist on a caltrop-like approach.  Otherwise, it's breaking far too many precedents for my tastes.




If you didn't want those precedents broken you shouldn't leave them lying around.

Anyhow, those caltrop rules previously quoted don't scale the damage by size, so how is it a precedent?


----------



## Shade (Aug 11, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Anyhow, those caltrop rules previously quoted don't scale the damage by size, so how is it a precedent?




I mean each 5-foot-square containing one is "encountered" by the victim.

In other words...razor weed is a 5x5 hazard for damage purposes, but a patch could contain multiple razor weeds.


----------



## freyar (Aug 12, 2010)

Shade said:


> I mean each 5-foot-square containing one is "encountered" by the victim.
> 
> In other words...razor weed is a 5x5 hazard for damage purposes, but a patch could contain multiple razor weeds.



This makes sense to me.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 12, 2010)

Shade said:


> I mean each 5-foot-square containing one is "encountered" by the victim.
> 
> In other words...razor weed is a 5x5 hazard for damage purposes, but a patch could contain multiple razor weeds.




Isn't that basically the same as the "damage per square" I mentioned earlier?



Cleon said:


> I did wonder about 1d4 damage per square of razorweed the intruding creature occupies.




I don't mind that approach.

So something like:

Every time a creature or object moves into a 5 ft. square occupied by razorweed it takes 1d4 slashing damage. If the victim is bigger than a single 5 ft. square it will take 1d4 slashing damage for every square of its Space that enters the razorgrass. The  razor-leaves are incredibly sharp, and ignore hardness of less than *12*.  The razorweed continues to inflict damage until all creatures standing on it are dead, have moved  away, or the razorweed has been cut down. Razorweed will also do  1d4 slashing damage per round to any equipment worn or carried by creatures standing upon it provided such equipment is within 3 feet of the ground, following the normal  rules for damaging objects.


----------



## freyar (Aug 14, 2010)

This is better for my tastes, since it doesn't treat Small and Medium victims differently...


----------



## Cleon (Aug 15, 2010)

freyar said:


> This is better for my tastes, since it doesn't treat Small and Medium victims differently...




Well while I'd prefer them to have different damages it's not a deal-breaker for me, so let's use the per-square approach.

Revising...
*
Razorweed* (CR 2?)
Razorweed is a carnivorous aquatic plant that mimics normal aquatic  grasses. Only a keen observer will notice the grass blades have  razor-keen serrated edges. A patch of razorweed can be quite large,  usually ranging from a 15 ft. by 15 ft. square to a field 60-70 feet  across (a typical patch of razorweed occupies 8d20 5 ft. squares). Each  5 ft square of razorweed  has 25 hit points and can be   cut down  (AC  16, DR 5/slashing). Razorweed has Spell Resistance 10. Aquatic razorweed always grows underwater, so is immune to fire damage. It requires a DC 20 check against Spot or Knowledge  (nature)  to  recognize a patch of razorweed as a threat.

Every time a creature or object moves into a 5 ft. square occupied by  razorweed it takes 1d4 slashing damage. If the victim is bigger than a  single 5 ft. square it will take 1d4 slashing damage for every square of  its Space that enters the razorgrass. The  razor-leaves are incredibly  sharp, and ignore hardness of less than 12.  The razorweed  continues to inflict damage until all creatures standing on it are dead,  have moved  away, or the razorweed has been cut down. Razorweed will  also do  1d4 slashing damage per round to any equipment worn or carried  by creatures standing upon it provided such equipment is within 3 feet  of the ground, following the normal  rules for damaging objects.

*Terrestrial Razorweed:* There  is a variety of razorweed that grows on dry land. This uses the same  mechanics as above, except it is tougher (AC 20) and is not immune to  fire damage.


----------



## Shade (Aug 17, 2010)

It's looking pretty good.   Hardness 12 might be a bit much.  I'd probably lower it to 10.

We should probably hint at supernatural/magical origins to explain why it possesses spell resistance.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> It's looking pretty good.   Hardness 12 might be a bit much.  I'd probably lower it to 10.




I set it at 12 so it can damage iron objects easily, which seems to be indicated by the original text.

Alternatively, we could go "ignores the first 8 points of hardness", which would give it the ability to mildly damage standard metal equipment with its 1d4 damage anti-equipment attacks.



Shade said:


> We should probably hint at supernatural/magical origins to explain why it possesses spell resistance.




Well there's no mention of origin in the original, so I'd rather just leave it an unstated mystery.


----------



## Shade (Aug 19, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Alternatively, we could go "ignores the first 8 points of hardness", which would give it the ability to mildly damage standard metal equipment with its 1d4 damage anti-equipment attacks.




Yeah, I think I like that better.


----------



## freyar (Aug 19, 2010)

I'd go for hardness 10, so it can damage the iron a little more, but I like this generally.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 20, 2010)

freyar said:


> I'd go for hardness 10, so it can damage the iron a little more, but I like this generally.




On reflection, I like hardness 10 reduction better too.

I'm also thinking we don't need the "following the normal  rules for damaging objects" bit.

Revising...
*
Razorweed* (CR 2?)
Razorweed is a carnivorous aquatic plant that mimics normal aquatic   grasses. Only a keen observer will notice the grass blades have   razor-keen serrated edges. A patch of razorweed can be quite large,   usually ranging from a 15 ft. by 15 ft. square to a field 60-70 feet   across (a typical patch of razorweed occupies 8d20 5 ft. squares). Each   5 ft square of razorweed  has 25 hit points and can be   cut down  (AC   16, DR 5/slashing). Razorweed has Spell Resistance 10. Aquatic  razorweed always grows underwater, so is immune to fire damage. It  requires a DC 20 check against Spot or Knowledge  (nature)  to   recognize a patch of razorweed as a threat.

Every time a creature or object moves into a 5 ft. square occupied by   razorweed it takes 1d4 slashing damage. If the victim is bigger than a   single 5 ft. square it will take 1d4 slashing damage for every square of   its Space that enters the razorgrass. The  razor-leaves are incredibly   sharp, ignoring the first 10 points of any hardness a target has.  The razorweed  continues  to inflict damage until all creatures standing on it are dead,  have  moved  away, or the razorweed has been cut down. Razorweed will  also do   1d4 slashing damage per round to any equipment worn or carried  by  creatures standing upon it provided such equipment is within 3 feet  of  the ground.

*Terrestrial Razorweed:*  There  is a variety of razorweed that grows on dry land. This uses the  same  mechanics as above, except it is tougher (AC 20) and is not immune  to  fire damage.


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## freyar (Aug 20, 2010)

That looks pretty good to me.  CR 2 is probably about right, I think, though the "auto-hit" might improve that a bit.  I guess PCs would just move around it, though.


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## Cleon (Aug 20, 2010)

freyar said:


> That looks pretty good to me.  CR 2 is probably about right, I think, though the "auto-hit" might improve that a bit.  I guess PCs would just move around it, though.




Shall we leave it like that then, at least until we hear from Shade?


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## freyar (Aug 21, 2010)

Yup.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 21, 2010)

freyar said:


> Yup.




We'll just sit here and watch the grass grow then.

(I just had to get the last word in.)


----------



## freyar (Aug 21, 2010)

Cleon said:


> (I just had to get the last word in.)




Nope.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> Nope.




Phooey.


----------



## Shade (Aug 23, 2010)

<Mows lawn with adamantine mower>

What?  

Added to Homebrews.


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## Cleon (Aug 24, 2010)

Shade said:


> <Mows lawn with adamantine mower>




<Moved lawn exudes corrosive fluid that dissolves adamantine mower, then sprouts twice as many venomous grass blades as it had before>

Oh sorry, I didn't mention I'd improved your lawn? 



Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.




Is the razorweed done then?


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## Shade (Aug 24, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Is the razorweed done then?




I believe so.  Moving on...

*Fireweed*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any Underdark or tropical
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: None
ACTIVITY/CYCLE: Any
DIET: Heat
INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0)
TREASURE: None
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVEMENT: 0
HIT DICE: 1 to 9
THAC0: N/A
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4	
SPECIAL ATTACKS: None
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Absorb fire
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
SIZE: S to L (1’-8’ tall)
MORALE: N/A

This strange, heat-absorbing plant grows in sections of the Underdark that even fungi find too harsh to survive. While it is not a threat to most adventuring parties, it can change the terrain, making volcanic regions survivable. It can also turn the normally lifeless stretches of the underdark into relatively fertile regions, simply by converting heat into food.

Fireweed is a black, spongy plant, without leaves but with constant branches; its overall structure resembles a gigantic Spanish moss. Its sap is a purplish-red.

Combat: Because fireweed thrives on heat of all kinds, it cannot be destroyed by fire, even magical fire; instead, fire makes it grow at an astounding, even magical rate, filling entire corridors or caverns if the heat is great enough. For each die of heat damage that fireweed absorbs, it grows another foot; constant sources of heat can quickly lead to the weed overrunning every bit of space for miles, creating a dark wooden jungle.

Habitat/Society: Fireweed grows in stands, much like scrub weeds and saplings on the surface. These stands are almost always a single genetic organism, reproducing by cloning into many hundreds or thousands of copies of the founding fireweed plant.

Ecology: The semi-magical strength of fireweed converts heat into food and foul toxins into breathable air. Its value to the creatures of the deep underdark is immense, and they treat it with the respect it deserves. Surface-dwellers who hack down stands of the useful plant are often punished by Underdark dwellers who witness the crime.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #227 (1996).


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## freyar (Aug 25, 2010)

Interesting.  Seems like it should have "absorb toxins" also.  But is it even a hazard?  Seems more like dungeon dressing.


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## Shade (Aug 25, 2010)

It does deal some damage, though.  We might need to beef these up a little.


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## Cleon (Aug 25, 2010)

Shade said:


> It does deal some damage, though.  We might need to beef these up a little.




How does it do that damage? The entry doesn't describe its attack.

My guess is it sucks the heat out of an attacker, effectively doing cold damage - like a brown mold but not as high damage.

Indeed, they are rather like non-aggressive, useful Brown Mold.


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## Shade (Aug 25, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Indeed, they are rather like non-aggressive, useful Brown Mold.




Yep, that's probably the approach we should take for 'em.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 25, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yep, that's probably the approach we should take for 'em.




Okay, here's Brown Mold's SRD writeup just to remind us:

*Brown Mold (CR 2)*
Brown mold feeds on warmth, drawing heat from anything around it. It normally comes in patches 5 feet in diameter, and the temperature is always cold in a 30-foot radius around it. Living creatures within 5 feet of it take 3d6 points of nonlethal cold damage. Fire brought within 5 feet of brown mold causes it to instantly double in size. Cold damage, such as from a _cone of cold_, instantly destroys it.

I was thinking more it does lethal cold damage, perhaps like a ray of cold - say a 10 ft. ranged touch for 1d4 damage.


----------



## Shade (Aug 26, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I was thinking more it does lethal cold damage, perhaps like a ray of cold - say a 10 ft. ranged touch for 1d4 damage.




Yeah, I think that helps differentiate it.


----------



## freyar (Aug 27, 2010)

Yes, that would work.  Something like this?

Fireweed (CR X)
Fireweed feeds on warmth and is immune to fire damage. It normally comes in patches 5 feet in diameter, but each die of fire damage causes the patch to grow another 5 foot square. Once per round, each 5 ft square patch of fireweed can make a ranged touch attack to absorb heat from a creature within 10 ft; this attack does 1d4 cold damage if successful.

Because fireweed is an effective insulator, underdark creatures value it for its ability to turn underground hotspots into fertile regions.  Its respiration can help purify toxic air, making it doubly variable.  As a result, anyone deliberately damaging fireweed may invoke the anger of nearby creatures.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 27, 2010)

freyar said:


> Yes, that would work.  Something like this?
> 
> Fireweed (CR X)
> Fireweed feeds on warmth and is immune to fire damage. It normally comes in patches 5 feet in diameter, but each 25 points of fire damage causes the patch to grow another 5 foot square. Once per round, each 5 ft square patch of fireweed can make a ranged touch attack to absorb heat from a creature within 10 ft; this attack does 1d4 cold damage if successful.
> ...




I was thinking more a single ray with a damage that increases with the patch's size, and it only uses its ray in self defence. I also quite liked the idea of having a fire ray attack.

Also, I'd rather have it grow a bit more slowly than that. The original version says it grows 1 foot per die of fire damage, which appears to mean a foot in height. How about making it 1 square foot per point of fire damage, so it takes 25 points to add a square?

e.g.

*Fireweed (CR X)*
Fireweed feeds on warmth and is immune to fire damage. It normally comes  in patches 5 to 15 feet in diameter, but each die of fire damage causes the  patch to grow another 5 foot square. If attacked, a patch of fireweed defends itself with a cryo-thermal ray - a +X ranged touch attack with a range of 10 ft that does 1d4 damage plus 1 point of damage for every 5 ft. square after the first a patch of fireweed covers (e.g. a three square patch does 1d4+2 damage). This damage is half fire and half cold. A patch of fireweed has AC X and Y hit points per 5 ft. square. It is reduced in size by one square for every Y hit points of damage it takes.

Because fireweed is an effective insulator, underdark creatures value it  for its ability to turn underground hotspots into fertile regions.  Its  respiration can help purify toxic air, making it doubly variable.  As a  result, anyone deliberately damaging fireweed may invoke the anger of  nearby creatures.


----------



## Shade (Aug 27, 2010)

I'm not fond of the half-fire ray (where'd that come from?)

The rest looks OK.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 28, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'm not fond of the half-fire ray (where'd that come from?)




From the warped depths of my imagination.

Well it doesn't say what kind of damage it does, so we could make it whatever we like. I was thinking it could be fire damage (as it's a "fireweed"), or cold damage (as it may steal heat). Then I thought it'd be kind of neat if it did both at once. 

Maybe it shoots out some of the heat energy it's absorbed and then sucks it back again in fast succession, simultaneously heating and freezing its target to cause damage?



Shade said:


> The rest looks OK.




So do we just have to settle on damage type(s) then?


----------



## freyar (Aug 29, 2010)

Splitting damage types doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.  I could see the reasoning for either fire or cold by itself, though.

As for the size, I thought it meant absorbing fire damage makes it grow on the ground, since it can rapidly overrun large areas.  Hmm.  A little vague in the original, I guess.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 30, 2010)

freyar said:


> Splitting damage types doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.  I could see the reasoning for either fire or cold by itself, though.




Well that was the problem see, I reasoned they ought to do fire or cold damage but couldn't decide which, so settled on both.



freyar said:


> As for the size, I thought it meant absorbing fire damage makes it grow on the ground, since it can rapidly overrun large areas.  Hmm.  A little vague in the original, I guess.




Well I think we're agreed it grows rapidly if it takes fire damage, the question is how fast?


----------



## freyar (Aug 30, 2010)

Let's have Shade figure this out.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 30, 2010)

freyar said:


> Let's have Shade figure this out.




I fear that may be our only route out of this impasse.

As for the fireweed's attack, I could see it going three ways.

The fireweed absorbs heat from its surroundings to feed itself, but maybe it can release that heat back as a fire ray? Since it's effectively "wasting food", that explains why it only attacks in self-defense.

Alternatively, it could concentrate its heat-draining ability onto a single target, effectively shooting a "freeze ray". The problem with that is it doesn't explain why it doesn't try to freeze any hotblooded adventurer that ventures near it, simply to gain nourishment. The "freeze ray" could be inefficient I suppose, so it doesn't provide a net gain of energy to the plant.

Finally, the fire weed could simultaneously project stored heat and draw it back, rapidly oscillating its target's temperature - a "hot & cold ray" if you will.

Of the three, I now like the "fire ray" and the "hot & cold ray" the best.


----------



## Shade (Aug 30, 2010)

Cleon said:


> The fireweed absorbs heat from its surroundings to feed itself, but maybe it can release that heat back as a fire ray? Since it's effectively "wasting food", that explains why it only attacks in self-defense.




I like this option best.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> I like this option best.




You're living down up to my expectations.

Shall we plug in "fire damage" and move on to arguing over the growth rate?


----------



## freyar (Aug 31, 2010)

Yup.  

I don't mind slowing down the growth rate, but I do feel like it should be a 5ft square per X hp fire damage absorbed.


----------



## Shade (Aug 31, 2010)

freyar said:


> I don't mind slowing down the growth rate, but I do feel like it should be a 5ft square per X hp fire damage absorbed.




I agree.


----------



## freyar (Aug 31, 2010)

Well, Cleon quoted me above as saying 25 hp fire damage per 5 ft square (though I thought I said 1 die of damage).  How does that number sound?


----------



## Shade (Aug 31, 2010)

I find that acceptable.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 31, 2010)

Shade said:


> I find that acceptable.




Revising...

*Fireweed (CR X)*
Fireweed feeds on warmth and is immune to fire damage. It normally comes   in patches covering *YdY* 5 foot squares, but each 25 hit points of fire damage  it takes causes the  patch to grow another 5 foot square. If attacked, a patch of  fireweed defends itself with a heat ray - a *+Z* ranged touch  attack with a range of 10 ft that does 1d4 fire damage plus 1 point of fire damage  for every 5 ft. square after the first a patch of fireweed covers (e.g.  a three square patch does 1d4+2 damage). A patch of fireweed has AC *A* and *Y* hit points per 5 ft.  square. It is reduced in size by one square for every Y hit points of  damage it takes.

Because fireweed is an effective insulator, underdark creatures value it   for its ability to turn underground hotspots into fertile regions.   Its  respiration can help purify toxic air, making it doubly variable.   As a  result, anyone deliberately damaging fireweed may invoke the anger  of  nearby creatures.

...that leaves us its CR, size, ranged touch attack bonus, AC and hp to to decide on.


----------



## Shade (Aug 31, 2010)

CR 1/2?

1d20 squares?

+2 ranged touch?

Hmm...most hazards don't have AC and hit points.   Rather, they simply have a basic description of what destroys them.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> CR 1/2?
> 
> 1d20 squares?
> 
> +2 ranged touch?




The area and touch bonus are OK by me.

Do we want to cap the heat ray damage? Otherwise a large patch will be doing a lot more than the original's 1-4.

Maybe at 1d4+5?



Shade said:


> Hmm...most hazards don't have AC and hit points.    Rather, they simply have a basic description of what destroys  them.




The AD&D original is AC7 and 1 to 8 HD.

AC13 and 5 hp per square, with vulnerability to cold?


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## Shade (Sep 1, 2010)

Let's limit a patch, regardless of size, to 1 ray per round.

The rest sounds fine.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> Let's limit a patch, regardless of size, to 1 ray per round.
> 
> The rest sounds fine.




Pardon?

A patch is already limited to one ray per round, it's the damage I was wondering about capping.


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## Shade (Sep 1, 2010)

Ahh...I see to what you were referring now.   I'm not sure we even need bonus damage based on the size of the patch.  Let's just set a value and stick with it, whether it be 1d4 or 1d4+5 (although the latter might be a bit much for a touch attack at CR 1/2).


----------



## Cleon (Sep 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> Ahh...I see to what you were referring now.   I'm not sure we even need bonus damage based on the size of the patch.  Let's just set a value and stick with it, whether it be 1d4 or 1d4+5 (although the latter might be a bit much for a touch attack at CR 1/2).




1d4 seems a little weak even for CR 1/2.

1d4+2?


----------



## Shade (Sep 1, 2010)

Ray of frost only does 1d3, so it's already got an edge on apprentice-level spellcasters.  

Freyar, what do you think?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 2, 2010)

> Casts _disguise self_ to appear as Freyar



I think you should agree with Cleon!


> Dispels _disguise self_ spell





Quiet around here, isn't it?


----------



## Shade (Sep 2, 2010)

Haven't your realized by now that I have a continuous _true seeing _effect?  

My shadesight (Su) also allows me to detect mischief!


----------



## Cleon (Sep 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> Haven't your realized by now that I have a continuous _true seeing _effect?
> 
> My shadesight (Su) also allows me to detect mischief!




Dang it, I forgot to put up my _confound true shadeseeing _Epic spell.


----------



## Shade (Sep 8, 2010)

In the interest of moving this along, can we compromise at 1d3+2 or 1d4+1?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 8, 2010)

Shade said:


> In the interest of moving this along, can we compromise at 1d3+2 or 1d4+1?




Either would be OK by me. Shall we say 1d4+1, since the original did 1-4?


----------



## Shade (Sep 8, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.


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## Cleon (Sep 8, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.




I guess it's done then.


----------



## Shade (Sep 9, 2010)

*Fungus, Cushion*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Dry subterranean areas
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Scavenger
INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0)
TREASURE TYPE: Incidental; 5% chance of O, P, R, U
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-8
ARMOR CLASS: 10
MOVEMENT: Nil
HIT DICE: 1 hit point
THAC0: 20
NO. OF ATTACKS: Nil
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Nil
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Poisonous spores
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: S-L (2’-8’ diameter)
MORALE: Not applicable
XP VALUE: 35

The cushion fungus is usually found in dry, dark, underground areas having little or no air movement. This fungus is typically oval in shape, about knee-high when mature, and up to 8’ in diameter at its largest. Its pastel coloration ranges from pink to purple, with the outer surface of the fungus having the texture of fine velvet.

Combat: Any movement of air or an increase in the ambient temperature (such as from a torch or warm-blooded creature) in the vicinity of a mature fungus will cause it to release an almost-invisible cloud of spores in a 40’ diameter. Some observers have described this spore cloud as resembling the shimmering distortion of heat rising through the air from a hot surface. A successful wisdom check on 4d6, or such spells or devices that detect invisibility, are required to notice the cloud. Assume that the spore cloud will be released one round after a being or heat source passes within 30’ of the cushion fungus, or two rounds after a being or heat source passes within 31’-60’ of it. The cloud remains active in the air for 5-8 turns thereafter.

Creatures caught within a spore cloud must save against poison or will begin to feel drowsy, with a deep, peaceful sleep coming on in 1-4 rounds. Even those who save are affected as per a confusion spell for 1-4 rounds, and must save again 10 rounds later if they haven’t left the vicinity of the fungus. Creatures failing their saves will fall, usually onto or near the velvety soft fungus, and remain in this state until they are removed from the radius of the cloud and a neutralize poison spell is cast on them (without this spell, 1-3 days are required before the victim wakes up).

The cushion fungus itself will burst if someone falls on it heavily, which happens if the person struck by sleepiness is within 3’ of the cushion and fails a dexterity check on 1d20 when he falls. A burst fungi emits a 60’-diameter cloud of spores for 2-5 turns, and those caught within this thick cloud have a -2 on their saving throws vs. poison, sleeping for 3-6 days if they fail. If the fungus does not burst, spores will continue to be emitted as long as victims are breathing or snoring nearby. Over a period of 4-16 days, a sleeping victim dies of starvation and thirst, begins to decompose, and is digested by the fungus’s spores on the body. The body then slowly becomes covered with the velvetlike fungus until, 5-30 days after the being’s death, it has become a new cushion fungus. A body that falls on and bursts a cushion fungus takes only 3-12 days to turn into a fungus if the victim dies. In any event, a sleeping victim who manages to revive requires no further care except for eating and drinking.

Habitat/Society: This fungus grows only in areas with little or no air movement (abandoned dungeons, vaults, crypts, blocked caverns, etc.). If brought to an area with any regular air movement, perhaps on a spore-carrying body, the spores will not mature.

Ecology: The fungus’s digestive enzymes are incapable of digesting inorganic items, so metallic items, jewelry, gems, and so forth will continue to exist within the body of the fungus. Some adventurers have told of finding treasure within oddly shaped cushion fungi, but cutting one open invites trouble. It is said that the spores of this fungus are valuable to alchemists and mages for use in potions of sleep, confusion, and feign death.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #172 (1991).


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## freyar (Sep 10, 2010)

Well, I'm happy enough with the fireweed!  The cushion fungus sounds a lot like a hazard, too.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 10, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, I'm happy enough with the fireweed!  The cushion fungus sounds a lot like a hazard, too.




Yes, they could easily be a hazard. They're basically just a spores attack with a bit of flavour tacked to them.

Something like this...

*Cushion Fungus (CR X)*
A cushion fungus resembles a giant, oval puffball mushroom from 2 to 8 feet in diameter. Their skin has the texture of fine velvet and ranges from pastel pink to purple in color. Cushion fungi constantly emit spores in a 30 ft. radius whenever a breathing creature is within 30 feet. Any living creature in this spore cloud must succeed at a DC Y Fortitude save every round or fall unconscious for 1d3 days, creatures that have immunity or resistance to poison have an equal immunity or resistance to a cushion fungus's spores. The fungus is soft and weak, with AC 10 and 1 hit point, but any attack that ruptures its skin releases a 60 ft. radius cloud of spores that lasts for 1d4+1 rounds. A _neutralize poison_ or stronger anti-poison spell will awaken a creature rendered unconscious by the spores. If a creature dies within the spore cloud (usually due to starvation and thirst while unconscious) the spores will begin to grow upon the corpse, forming a new cushion fungus within 3d4 days.

I simplified it a bit from the original, but I think that mostly covers it.


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## Shade (Sep 13, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

CR 3?  Rendered unconscious for up to three days is rather deadly.

Assuming CR 3, save DC around 17 or so?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 14, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> CR 3?  Rendered unconscious for up to three days is rather deadly.
> 
> Assuming CR 3, save DC around 17 or so?




Challenge Rating 3 seems about right, it's nastier than Brown Mold (CR2) since it has a wide area "save or suck" attack, but it isn't as lethal as Green Slime (CR4).

I was thinking DC 12 or the 'default' DC of 15. Remember the victim may have to make several saves, so I wouldn't want it that high.

Cushion Fungi would be quite unpleasant if accompanied by creatures immune to its spores...


----------



## Shade (Sep 14, 2010)

I'll meet you at DC 15, then.  

Updated.


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## freyar (Sep 15, 2010)

Good to go, then?


----------



## Shade (Sep 15, 2010)

It appears so!

Let's tackle a non-hazard...

*Dirtwraith (Sargusian Fungus)*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Vesve Forest, the Abyss
FREQUENCY: Rare (uncommon in the Abyss)
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Nocturnal
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE:Semi- (2-4)
TREASURE TYPE: Z
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 9
MOVEMENT: 1
HIT DICE: 1 to 12
THAC0: Variable
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d4 to 12d4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Animate plants, spores
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Various immunities
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: See below
MORALE: Fearless (20)
XP VALUE: Varies

The dirtwraith’s name comes from the commonly held (but incorrect) belief that the fungus is a form of undead that spontaneously erupts out of the corrupt dirt beneath a decaying body.  Rather, it is a form of semi-intelligent fungus that dwells in the root systems of larger plants.  The fact that skeletons are commonly found nearby attests to its efficiency, not to its genesis.  A dirtwraith appears as a mass of pale yellow spheroids connected by a matrix of thick, fibrous strands.  Dirtwraiths are natives of the Abyss and are known as Sargusian fungi to the inhabitants there.

Combat: Dirtwraiths live among the root system of their plant host.  As they grow, their fibrous tendrils allow them a clumsy form of undulating locomotion that lets them move about when necessary.   They sense prey through ground vibrations.

A dirtwraith attacks once per round with its host plant, causing damage equal to 1d4 for each of its Hit Dice on a successful hit.  Thus, a 5-HD dirtwraith causes 5d4 points of damage.

The host remains a nonsentient creature and is immune to mind-affecting magic and the like.  It can withstand damage equal to the dirtwraith’s hit point total before being destroyed; most plants have an AC of 6.  Slaying the plant does not slay the dirtwraith; the creature simply moves to a new host once it thinks it’s alone.  To slay a dirtwraith, the pod network must be exhumed or else the attacker must wait motionlessly for the dirtwraith to extract itself to search for a new host (usually within 2d6 turns).

The dirtwraith is immune to fire, mind-affecting magic, and blunt weapons.  Once exhumed, its only defense is to spray spores.  Each pod can spray one cloud of spores per day; a successful hit forces the target to make a saving throw vs. poison to avoid choking.  Failure indicates that the victim suffers 1d6 points of damage per round for 2d4 rounds.  A successful saving throw indicates a -2 penalty to attack rolls.

Habitat/Society: The Bonehart discovered the dirtwraith when one of their number accidentally brought Sargusian spores back from a trip to the Abyss.  The unwitting wizard scattered spores throughout the town of Delaquenn.  Before long, the spores took root and grew into dirtwraiths.  The Bonehart took great interest in the fungus when it became apparent that it was not only an efficient killer but also an intelligent one.

Ecology: A dirtwraith’s Hit Dice are directly related to its age.  When a dirtwraith first “takes root,” it consists of only a single pod.  At this stage, it has only one Hit Die and can animate only small shrubs and creeping vines.  As it feeds, new pods appear and grow to maturity at the rate of one pod per month (assuming a regular supply of food).  With each pod, the dirtwraith gains an additional Hit Die and can animate increasingly large plants.  Dirtwraiths cease to grow once they reach 12 Hit Dice.

Demons of all types relish dirtwraith pods as a delicacy.  Unfortunately, these pods are poisonous to anything native to the Prime Material Plane.  Eating a few bites of a dirtwraith pod forces the victim to make a successful saving throw vs. poison or fall into a fevered coma for 2d6 days.  Once this time has passed, the victim can make a second saving throw vs. poison to overcome the fever.  If the second saving throw fails, the victim dies, and the body provides the base nutrients for a new dirtwraith pod.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #270 (2000).


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## Cleon (Sep 15, 2010)

freyar said:


> Good to go, then?




That was over far too quickly, can't we argue over it for a bit? 

I miss the transient golem, that was a conversion you could _really_ get your teeth into.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 15, 2010)

Shade said:


> It appears so!
> 
> Let's tackle a non-hazard...
> 
> *Dirtwraith (Sargusian Fungus)*




So it basically "possesses" and animates an ordinary plant?

It looks like a Plant with the Extraplanar subtype.

Should it be Evil or Chaotic as well, since it's native to the Abyss?

Start out Tiny and have it grow to Large?

Tiny (1-2 HD), Small (2-3 HD), Medium (4-7 HD), Large (8-12 HD).

Animates plants as an *Animated Object* one size larger than itself? (e.g. a Large Dirtwraith can animate a Huge tree). That way the animated object's HD = Dirtwraith's HD.


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## Shade (Sep 16, 2010)

That all sounds about right.  

Adjust violet fungi physical ability scores to Tiny?

Violet Fungus:  Str 14, Dex 8, Con 16
"Tiny-fied":  Str 6, Dex 12, Con 14


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## Cleon (Sep 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> That all sounds about right.




Dang it, that Tiny (1-2 HD) should be Tiny (1 HD).



Shade said:


> Adjust violet fungi physical ability scores to Tiny?
> 
> Violet Fungus:  Str 14, Dex 8, Con 16
> "Tiny-fied":  Str 6, Dex 12, Con 14




That's OK by me. Give it mental stats 1 or 2 points better than a Phantom Fungus's Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 9?

*Dirtwraith:* Str 6, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 3, Wis 13, Cha 11

No natural armour I guess.

Since they grow around root systems, they should have a burrow speed, and maybe be blind and have tremorsense or blindsight?

So, it'll be roughly like this:

*Dirtwraith*
Tiny Plant (Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 1d8+2 (6 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 5 ft. (1 squares), burrow 5 ft.
Armor Class: 12 (+2 size), touch 12, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/+3
Attack: —
Full Attack: —
Space/Reach: 2½ ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Animate plant, poison, spores
Special Qualities: *Blind?*, low-light vision, plant traits, *tremorsense 60 ft.?*
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +1, Will +1
Abilities: Str 6, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 3, Wis 13, Cha 11
Skills: 4
Feats: 1
Environment: Any land or underground?
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: ?
Treasure: ?
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: Small (2-3 HD), Medium (4-7 HD), Large (8-12 HD)
Level Adjustment: —

*Animate Plant (Su):* A dirtwraith can animate a plant one size larger than itself. The dirtwraith intertwines itself inside the plant's roots, a process which takes 1 minute, after which the plant gains the statistics of an Animated Object of the appropriate size, with hardness 5 and a speed of *X* ft. Any damage always affects the animated plant first, which must be destroyed before any harm can be done to the dirtwraith within it. A dirtwraith can only animate ordinary living plants, it can not animate dead plants or monsters with the Plant type.

Poison (Ex): Ingested, causes coma initial damage, death or Con secondary damage?

Spores (Ex): Cause some damage and sickened condition?

That'll do to begin with.


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## freyar (Sep 19, 2010)

Since the dirtwraith seems to need to extract itself from the ground before moving to a new host, I don't think it should have a burrow speed.

Dust of sneezing and choking does Con damage, so maybe 

Spores (Ex): Inhalation, Fortitude DC X, initial damage 1d2 Con and is sickened for X rounds, secondary damage 1d2 Con.  The save DC is Constitution-based.

What do you think?


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## Cleon (Sep 19, 2010)

freyar said:


> Since the dirtwraith seems to need to extract itself from the ground before moving to a new host, I don't think it should have a burrow speed.




Well I see your point, but how does it get down to the roots? If it digs a hole, wouldn't it be obvious that the plant's been tampered with?

Some kind of burrowing still seems in order.



freyar said:


> Dust of sneezing and choking does Con damage, so maybe
> 
> Spores (Ex): Inhalation, Fortitude DC X, initial damage 1d2 Con and is sickened for X rounds, secondary damage 1d2 Con.  The save DC is Constitution-based.
> 
> What do you think?




That looks about right, it needs a duration. Shall we include the 1 spore attack per HD of the original?


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## Shade (Sep 20, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

I'm fine with the slow burrow speed.



> The dirtwraith is immune to fire, mind-affecting magic, and blunt weapons.




That looks like damage reduction x/slashing or piercing and immunity to fire and mind-affecting spells and abilities.

Let's not make 'em blind, since none of the MM fungi are blind.

I'd prefer Con damage to death for the poison's secondary damage, and make it "unconsciousness" rather than "coma" for the primary.


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## Cleon (Sep 20, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> I'm fine with the slow burrow speed.
> 
> That looks like damage reduction x/slashing or piercing and immunity to fire and mind-affecting spells and abilities.




DR 10/slashing or piercing?



Shade said:


> Let's not make 'em blind, since none of the MM fungi are blind.




Better give them low-light vision too, since that's a standard Plant SQ.



Shade said:


> I'd prefer Con damage to death for the poison's secondary damage, and make it "unconsciousness" rather than "coma" for the primary.




So something like:

*Poison (Ex):* A dirtwraith's flesh is a deadly poison. Any creature that hits a dirtwraith with a bite attack is affected.

_Dirtwraith flesh_—Ingested; Fort DC *X*; primary damage unconsciousness for *2d6?* days; secondary damage *2d6?* Con. If a living creature dies from the effects of dirtwraith poison, one or more 1 HD dirtwraiths will sprout from the corpse *2d6?* days later.

I also wondered about allowing the dirtwraith to force some of its body into an opponents mouth and thereby poison them — maybe with a grapple check?


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## freyar (Sep 21, 2010)

With a burrow speed, I'm not sure if these ever have a motivation to leave the ground.  I'd make the animate plants Su ability include some sort of meld into plant or meld into roots or something.

I like the rest of what we have, though I'm not fond of the grapple check to force the poison.


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## Shade (Sep 21, 2010)

freyar said:


> With a burrow speed, I'm not sure if these ever have a motivation to leave the ground.  I'd make the animate plants Su ability include some sort of meld into plant or meld into roots or something.




OK, you've convinced me.  



freyar said:


> I like the rest of what we have, though I'm not fond of the grapple check to force the poison.




Nor I.


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## Cleon (Sep 21, 2010)

Shade said:


> OK, you've convinced me.




I'll go along with it to, we can just tweak the Animate Plant description.

As for the force-feeding grapple, I was just throwing the idea out to see what it stuck to. We could have something about it using its spores to reproduce by germinating in dead bodies it has slain with its animated plants.


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## freyar (Sep 22, 2010)

Ok, then, revising...

Animate Plant (Su): A dirtwraith can animate a plant one size larger than itself. The dirtwraith melds into the ground at the base of the plant and intertwines itself inside the plant's roots, a process which takes 1 minute, after which the plant gains the statistics of an Animated Object of the appropriate size, with hardness 5 and a speed of X ft. Any damage always affects the animated plant first, which must be destroyed before any harm can be done to the dirtwraith within it. A dirtwraith can only animate ordinary living plants, it can not animate dead plants or monsters with the Plant type.  Once the animated plant is destroyed, the dirtwraith may be exhumed from the plants roots; if left undisturbed, it will emerge from the ground 2d6 minutes later to seek a new plant host.

As for the spores, I like the idea of mentioning in the flavor text that they can release spores on dead victims of their animated plants to reproduce.  But that shouldn't be something they'd do in combat.


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## Shade (Sep 22, 2010)

Updated.

20 ft. speed for the animated plants?

2d4 rounds for the sickening effect of spores?


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## Cleon (Sep 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> 20 ft. speed for the animated plants?




The original description rather suggests the plants remain rooted in the ground, but I'd rather they become fully mobile.

I'd give them speed 10 ft., like a Treant's animated trees.



Shade said:


> 2d4 rounds for the sickening effect of spores?




Fine by me.


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## freyar (Sep 22, 2010)

Agreed on 10 ft and 2d4 rounds sickened.

Tumble for the skill ranks, to help them get around opponents when above ground? Maybe Ability Focus (spores) for the feat?

A couple of corrections/additions:
1) Shouldn't the spore and dirtwraith flesh poison DCs be the same? 
2) We need to explain how often the dirtwraith can use the spores and how big of a cloud it is.  The original monster specifies 1/day, at least.  Revising...

Spores (Ex): Once per day, a dirtwraith can release a 30 ft? radius cloud of poisonous spores centered on itself as a standard action.  If the dirtwraith is currently animating a plant, this process requires a full minute during which the animated plant can take no other actions; the cloud is centered on the plant.  As a result, dirtwraiths do not use their spore attack while animating a plant unless all their opponents are dead.  

_dirtwraith spores_ - Inhalation, Fortitude DC 12, initial damage 1d2 Con and is sickened for X rounds, secondary damage 1d2 Con. The save DC is Constitution-based.  Corpses exposed to dirtwraith spores become grow a single new dirtwraith over a 48 hour period.

I went ahead and added the reproductive bit.


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## Shade (Sep 22, 2010)

Looks great!  Updated.


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## Cleon (Sep 23, 2010)

freyar said:


> Agreed on 10 ft and 2d4 rounds sickened.
> 
> Tumble for the skill ranks, to help them get around opponents when above ground? Maybe Ability Focus (spores) for the feat?
> 
> ...




Isn't it 1/day _*per pod*_, and the dirtwraith has 1 pod per HD in the original monster?

Apart from that it looks fine.


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## freyar (Sep 23, 2010)

It might be easier to pick a fixed number of times per day and maybe put in an advancement note.


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2010)

freyar said:


> It might be easier to pick a fixed number of times per day and maybe put in an advancement note.




Good call.  In fact, once per day (one pod) is the default, so it makes it easy.  Simply add...

*Advanced Dirtwraiths*
A dirtwraith gains one additional spore pod for each Hit Dice gained.  It may thus use its spores attack a number of times per day equal to its Hit Dice.


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## freyar (Sep 24, 2010)

Comparing the dirtwraith flesh poison to the dirtwraith spores, let's change the dirtwraith spore entry to read "If a corpse is exposed to dirtwraith spores, one or more 1 HD dirtwraiths will sprout from the corpse 2d6 days later."

CR, then?  The tiny animated object is CR 1/2, and these have the additional spore attack (though only 1/day) and a few more hp.  I'm inclined to go with CR 1.

Treasure: 1/10th coins; 50% goods; 50% items as incidental treasure?


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## Shade (Sep 24, 2010)

That all makes sense.

Updated.


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## Cleon (Sep 24, 2010)

Shade said:


> That all makes sense.
> 
> Updated.




Agreed. The Pod Advancement, CR and Treasure are all fine.


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## freyar (Sep 25, 2010)

Just needs tactics and size, then.

Tactics:  Dirtwraiths attack the unwary with their animated plants, saving their spore attacks for their dead victims or the unfortunate circumstance that they are attacked out of the ground.  If their animated plant is destroyed, they will wait to see if they are undisturbed before extracting themselves and searching for a new host.


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## Cleon (Sep 25, 2010)

freyar said:


> Just needs tactics and size, then.
> 
> Tactics:  Dirtwraiths attack the unwary with their animated plants, saving their spore attacks for their dead victims or the unfortunate circumstance that they are attacked out of the ground.  If their animated plant is destroyed, they will wait to see if they are undisturbed before extracting themselves and searching for a new host.




Not that fond of the wording I'm afraid. How's this:*

Combat*
Dirtwraiths usually attack the unwary with their animated plants, then infect any creatures they kill with their spores. If the plant they are animating is destroyed, they wait to see if they are undisturbed before extracting themselves and searching for a new host. Outside a plant host dirtwraiths can only defend themselves with their spores and by slowly crawling away.


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## freyar (Sep 26, 2010)

Fine by me.  How about a size, since you're good with those?


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## Cleon (Sep 26, 2010)

freyar said:


> Fine by me.  How about a size, since you're good with those?




Hmm... something like this?

A newborn dirtwraith is a puffball-like pod about a foot across, weighing about 5 pounds. The largest dirtwraiths can weigh as much as 500 pounds and have up to a dozen pods about 2 feet in diameter.


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## Shade (Sep 27, 2010)

Updated.  Finished?


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## freyar (Sep 28, 2010)

Looks like it!


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## Shade (Sep 28, 2010)

*Skullcap Ivy*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any temperate land
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Sunlight, blood nutrients
INTELLIGENCE: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 10
MOVEMENT: 1 (as seed pod), or as host
HIT DICE: 1
THAC0: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: Nil
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Nil
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: T
MORALE: N/A
XP VALUE: 15 (for harvesting it only)

Skullcap ivy is a symbiotic plant that makes its home on the scalps of sentient creatures.  It begins as a floating, wispy seed pod, borne on the air like dandelion fluff.  When a seed pod lands on a human, demihuman, or humanoid head, it burrows into the scalp and takes root.  As the plant matures, it spreads along the scalp, creating a vast network of ivy-like shoots with broad, heart-shaped leaves.  It kills off hair follicles in the scalp, so as the host organism starts growing shoots of green ivy from the head, the host simultaneously loses his or her natural hair.  In time, the hair is completely replaced with plant growth.  If the ivy is later removed, the hair does not grow back.

Combat:  Skullcap ivy is benign.  While the loss of hair and the growth of plant shoots from the scalp can be a shock, the process does not harm the host.  However, if the host does not wish to replace his or her hair with plant growth, the skullcap ivy can be permanently removed by pulling it from the scalp and rubbing the head with alcohol.

Those who allow the ivey to grow from their scalps msut be ever vigilant against certain plant-based spells.  The biggest fear is entangle, with which an enemy spellcaster could cause the skullcap ivy to wrap around its host’s neck.  Strangulation occurs if the host fails a saving throw vs. spell; the ivy strangles for 1d4 points of damage each round until destroyed.  For this reason, many skullcap ivy hosts keep the plant growths cut short, or else braid it to confine the ivy shoots.

Spells such as hold plant have no effect upon either the skullcap ivy or its host, as the plant doesn’t move on its own, and the host remains a separate entity.  (Growing skullcap ivy on one’s head does not make one a plant hybrid.)

Habitat/Society:  Skullcap ivy is an opportunistic symbiote, taking adavantage of any chance encounter with its favorite environment:  the scalp of an intelligent mammal.  If the wind does not find it a potential host, the seed pod sinks roots into the soil and becomes a normal, earth-based plant.  When the time comes for it to take to seed, however, it casts its pods to the fortunes of the wind, trying once agains to find a suitable host.

Many believe that the plant was coaxed into its present form by Druids.  While nothing has been proven, many Druids and rangers actively cultivate the plant, nurturing it in their own scalps and encouraging its growth. Not only does this aid in the “commune with nature,” but it also gives the host a limited camouflage ability while within wooded areas.  Nymphs and dryads are occasionally seen with full manes of skullcap ivy.

Ecology:  The benefits of growing skullcap ivy in one’s scalp are many.  The plant is a true symbiote, bringing as much into the relationship as it takes.  The plant’s roots grow into the blood vessels of the host’s scalp, allowing the ivy to feed upon nutrients in the host’s blood if necessary.  This allows the plant to thrive even in conditions where it is away from sunlight for extended periods.  In return, the host gains additional nourishment directly from the plant via photosynthesis, allowing him or her to survive indefinitely on half the normal food and water supply as long as he or she has regular exposure to the sun.

In addition, both the skullcap ivy and the host are sources of the gases necessary for the other’s survival. The skullcap converts the host’s exhaled carbon dioxide into oxygen, while the host breathes the oxygen and converts it to carbon dioxide.  This along makes a skullcap ivy a welcome symbiote among many spelljamming crews.

On the down side, skullcap ivy produces small blue flowers in the springtime, attracting bees and wasps.  Hosts must prepare themselves for the ever-present attentions of such insects during that time of year.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #259 (1999).


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## Cleon (Sep 29, 2010)

The dirtwraith looks fine, couldn't see anything wrong with it.

The Skullcap Ivy seems to have an awful lot of description for very little monster.

Treat it as a symbiote, I suppose?


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## Shade (Sep 29, 2010)

Good call.  I was thinking symbiont as well.


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## freyar (Oct 1, 2010)

Definitely symbiont.  Have to go break out MM2 again...


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## Shade (Oct 1, 2010)

freyar said:


> Definitely symbiont.  Have to go break out MM2 again...




...and when you don't find 'em in there, crack open the Fiend Folio.


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## Cleon (Oct 3, 2010)

So how shall we handle its abilities:


Host vulnerable to _entangle_.
Host can feed off sunlight.
Provides breathable air.
Bees want to have relations with host's head.


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## Shade (Oct 4, 2010)

#1-3 seem easy enough.

#4 could be a bit tricky.


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## freyar (Oct 6, 2010)

Hmmm, it's Lords of Madness that has the other set of symbionts, isn't it? 

For #4, why not just say that giant bees or bee-type creatures preferentially attack the hosts in battle?


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2010)

I know there were more in Dragon Magazine #308, and I believe were also in one or more of the Eberron books.  

The solution for "attract bees" seems feasible.


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## Cleon (Oct 6, 2010)

Shade said:


> #1-3 seem easy enough.
> 
> #4 could be a bit tricky.




Not really, so long as the ivyhead remembers to to give them all flowers.


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## Shade (Oct 7, 2010)

So...

Diminutive plant?

None of the other symbionts are mindless, and it could mess up the Ego score mechanic most use to affect their host.  The lowest Int score among them is 5.

Its a shame this isn't for Pathfinder, as it would make a wonderful affliction.

EDIT:  This might work better as a simple plant monster, rather than a symbiont.  It reminds me a bit of the ciruja plant in _Dragon Compendium_.


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## Cleon (Oct 9, 2010)

Shade said:


> So...
> 
> Diminutive plant?




Assuming we're treating an entire "head of hair" as a single plant,  Diminutive should be OK. A Medium-sized humanoid's head is more-or-less  the same Space as a Diminutive creature, about a foot across.



Shade said:


> None of the other symbionts are mindless, and it could mess up the Ego score mechanic most use to affect their host.  The lowest Int score among them is 5.




How about Int 3, same as a Shambling Mound?

Failing that, Int 5 isn't too bad. It's halfway between a Shambler and a Tendriculos's Int 7.



Shade said:


> Its a shame this isn't for Pathfinder, as it would make a wonderful affliction.
> 
> EDIT:  This might work better as a simple plant monster, rather than a symbiont.  It reminds me a bit of the ciruja plant in _Dragon Compendium_.




Whichever you prefer.


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## freyar (Oct 11, 2010)

I still need to look up symbionts, and now I have to go read that ciruja plant.


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## Cleon (Oct 13, 2010)

freyar said:


> I still need to look up symbionts, and now I have to go read that ciruja plant.




Take your time.


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2010)

Looking over the symbionts again, I'm leaning toward non-symbiont.  As far as I can tell in the original text, the ivy has no means of making its host do what it wants, and thus has no need of an Ego score.


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## Cleon (Oct 20, 2010)

Shade said:


> Looking over the symbionts again, I'm leaning toward non-symbiont.  As far as I can tell in the original text, the ivy has no means of making its host do what it wants, and thus has no need of an Ego score.




What do you want to do then, make it a non-hazardous hazard or a Plant monster with hardly any stats?


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## Shade (Oct 22, 2010)

Probably the latter, otherwise it's just equipment, and the CC doesn't do equipment.


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## Cleon (Oct 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> Probably the latter, otherwise it's just equipment, and the CC doesn't do equipment.




Okay, how about reducing a Shrieker to Diminutive and tweaking it? That would give us something like:

*Skullcap Ivy*
Diminutive Plant
Hit Dice: ½d8 (2 hp)
Initiative: -5 
Speed: 0 ft. or fly 5 ft. (clumsy)
Armor Class: 10 (+4 size, -5 Dex, +1 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 10
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-17
Attack: —
Full Attack: —
Space/Reach: 1 ft./0 ft. 
Special Attacks: Spores
Special Qualities: Plant traits, symbiosis
Saves: Fort +2, Ref —, Will -4
Abilities: Str –, Dex –, Con 11, Int –, Wis 2, Cha 1
Skills: —
Feats: —
Environment: ?
Organization: Solitary or patch (3-5)
Challenge Rating: —
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 1 HD (Tiny); 2 HD (Small)
Level Adjustment: —


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## freyar (Oct 25, 2010)

A good start.  How about this for symbiosis?  BTW, is the spores attack just for reproduction?

Symbiosis (Ex/Su?): Skullcap ivy prefers to grow on the head of intelligent mammals, replacing the hair of its host.  The host reaps several benefits and a few disadvantages.  For one, as long as the skullcap ivy has adequate sunlight and water, the host requires half as much food and water as usual (if kept out of sunlight, as in a dungeon, the ivy nourishes itself from the host's bloodstream but requires only half the food of a Diminutive animal, which is a negligible amount compared to a Medium or Small humanoid's daily intake).  Furthermore, the host and ivy provide each other air to breath, so both can survive in airless or toxic? environments.  On the other hand, while a skullcap ivy is immune to spells that target plant monsters, the host becomes vulnerable to entangle and similar spells.  Specifically, if the ivy or the host is in the area of an entangle spell, the host must succeed at a Fortitude save, or the ivy will grow and start to strangle the host, causing suffocation if not killed.  Also, during the spring months, the blooms of a skullcap ivy attract bee-like creatures.  Any bee-like creature (such as a giant bee or a spider killer) will attack hosts of skullcap ivies before any other opponents.


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## Cleon (Oct 26, 2010)

freyar said:


> A good start.  How about this for symbiosis?  BTW, is the spores attack just for reproduction?




It was originally, but we could make it a 1/week attack that causes some minor penalty as the spores try to infect their new host.



freyar said:


> Symbiosis (Ex/Su?): Skullcap ivy prefers to grow on the head of intelligent mammals, replacing the hair of its host.  The host reaps several benefits and a few disadvantages.  For one, as long as the skullcap ivy has adequate sunlight and water, the host requires half as much food and water as usual (if kept out of sunlight, as in a dungeon, the ivy nourishes itself from the host's bloodstream but requires only half the food of a Diminutive animal, which is a negligible amount compared to a Medium or Small humanoid's daily intake).  Furthermore, the host and ivy provide each other air to breath, so both can survive in airless or toxic? environments.  On the other hand, while a skullcap ivy is immune to spells that target plant monsters, the host becomes vulnerable to entangle and similar spells.  Specifically, if the ivy or the host is in the area of an entangle spell, the host must succeed at a Fortitude save, or the ivy will grow and start to strangle the host, causing suffocation if not killed.  Also, during the spring months, the blooms of a skullcap ivy attract bee-like creatures.  Any bee-like creature (such as a giant bee or a spider killer) will attack hosts of skullcap ivies before any other opponents.




Hmm, firstly it should be (Ex).

Secondly, it doesn't let the host live in vacuum or poison gas, it just stops them asphyxiating.

Finally, I don't much like the bee-creatures always attacking the host.

How's this strike you...

*Symbiosis (Ex):* Skullcap ivy grows on the head of  intelligent mammals, replacing the hair of its host.  The host reaps  several benefits and a few disadvantages.  For one, as long as the  skullcap ivy has adequate sunlight and water, the host requires half as  much food and water as usual (if kept out of sunlight, as in a dungeon,  the ivy nourishes itself from the host's bloodstream but requires only  half the food of a Diminutive animal, which is a negligible amount  compared to a Medium or Small humanoid's daily intake).  Furthermore,  the host and ivy provide gasses for each other to breath, so the host will not asphyxiate if the air is low on oxygen (although they have no special protection from airless vacuums or poison gas).

On the other hand, while a skullcap  ivy is immune to spells that target plant monsters, the host becomes  vulnerable to _entangle_ and similar spells.  Specifically, if the ivy or  the host is in the area of an _entangle_ spell, the host must succeed at a  Fortitude save, or the ivy will grow and start to strangle the host, suffocating them for [1d4?] points of nonlethal damage per rounds until the host or the skullcap ivy is killed or the _entangle_ spell's duration ends.  Also, skullcap ivy produces sweet-smelling blooms during the spring months which attract pollinating insects, including monsters such as giant bees. These creatures may attack the skullcap ivy's host if they try to prevent them feeding on the plant's nectar.


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## freyar (Oct 27, 2010)

The precise quotes are



> In addition, both the skullcap ivy and the host are sources of the gases necessary for the other’s survival. The skullcap converts the host’s exhaled carbon dioxide into oxygen, while the host breathes the oxygen and converts it to carbon dioxide. This along makes a skullcap ivy a welcome symbiote among many spelljamming crews.
> 
> On the down side, skullcap ivy produces small blue flowers in the springtime, attracting bees and wasps. Hosts must prepare themselves for the ever-present attentions of such insects during that time of year.




I think the bit about spelljamming implies they let you breathe in vacuum, right?  I did add the toxic bit as a bit of poetic license, but I'm willing to take that out.  I could go either way on the bees, but I think general "attraction" may be too vague.

Suffocation already has specific rules, so I'd rather not go into nonlethal damage, etc.  And it sounds in the original like it's supposed to be lethal.  We could go into garrotting rules (we've done it before), but that seems a bit messy for such a simple-sounding critter.


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2010)

freyar said:


> I think the bit about spelljamming implies they let you breathe in vacuum, right?  I did add the toxic bit as a bit of poetic license, but I'm willing to take that out.




That makes sense, and I'm not bothered either way by the toxic bit.



freyar said:


> I could go either way on the bees, but I think general "attraction" may be too vague.




Agreed. If we leave it in, we need some explanation.



freyar said:


> Suffocation already has specific rules, so I'd rather not go into nonlethal damage, etc.  And it sounds in the original like it's supposed to be lethal.  We could go into garrotting rules (we've done it before), but that seems a bit messy for such a simple-sounding critter.




Eww.     Let's just stick with the suffocation rules.


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## Cleon (Oct 28, 2010)

freyar said:


> I think the bit about spelljamming implies they let you breathe in vacuum, right?  I did add the toxic bit as a bit of poetic license, but I'm willing to take that out.  I could go either way on the bees, but I think general "attraction" may be too vague.




A spelljamming vessel carries a bubble of air with it when it leaves an atmosphere. Outside this atmospheric envelope will be either vacuum of phlogiston (depending on whether they're inside a Crystal Sphere or not). Any living creatures aboard will consume the air, eventually rendering it stale and then unbreathable.

So, I would interpret the text as meaning a skullcap ivy host does not consume the atmosphere in the ship's envelope (or, rather, the ivy replenishes the air as fast as its host consumes it). I can't see any support for it allowing the host to breath in vacuum.


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## freyar (Oct 28, 2010)

Cleon said:


> A spelljamming vessel carries a bubble of air with it when it leaves an atmosphere. Outside this atmospheric envelope will be either vacuum of phlogiston (depending on whether they're inside a Crystal Sphere or not). Any living creatures aboard will consume the air, eventually rendering it stale and then unbreathable.
> 
> So, I would interpret the text as meaning a skullcap ivy host does not consume the atmosphere in the ship's envelope (or, rather, the ivy replenishes the air as fast as its host consumes it). I can't see any support for it allowing the host to breath in vacuum.




But that seems so boring!    Besides, it would be nice to have some use outside of spelljammers...  And your argument is pretty close, especially in D&D terms, to cleaning toxic air. 

In the end, since Shade already agreed about the suffocation, I'll let you two hash this out.  But I'd like this to be a somewhat interesting critter, so my preference is for breathing in vacuum, breathing toxins, or both.  Just something to make it a reasonable benefit.


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2010)

freyar said:


> But that seems so boring!    Besides, it would be nice to have some use outside of spelljammers...  And your argument is pretty close, especially in D&D terms, to cleaning toxic air.
> 
> In the end, since Shade already agreed about the suffocation, I'll let you two hash this out.  But I'd like this to be a somewhat interesting critter, so my preference is for breathing in vacuum, breathing toxins, or both.  Just something to make it a reasonable benefit.




I agree.  Breathing toxins would have the most "outside of Spelljammer" use, and also would tie in nicely with the fondness of it by druids (who don't gain venom immunity until 9th level) and fey.  Besides, it wasn't a Spelljammer critter to begin with.


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## Cleon (Oct 29, 2010)

Shade said:


> I agree.  Breathing toxins would have the most "outside of Spelljammer" use, and also would tie in nicely with the fondness of it by druids (who don't gain venom immunity until 9th level) and fey.  Besides, it wasn't a Spelljammer critter to begin with.




How about the ivy creating life-sustaining gasses means the host can "hold their breath" in vacuum or toxic gasses for a long period? Maybe 5 minutes per point of Con?

If you don't fancy that, I'd tolerate breathing _*nonmagical*_ poison gas and surviving in vacuum.


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## freyar (Oct 31, 2010)

How about breathing nonmagical poison indefinitely and need not start holding breath for 1 minute in vacuum?


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## Cleon (Oct 31, 2010)

freyar said:


> How about breathing nonmagical poison indefinitely and need not start holding breath for 1 minute in vacuum?




That'd be acceptable.


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## Shade (Nov 1, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.


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## Cleon (Nov 3, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.




So, are we going to bother with a spores SA?


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## Shade (Nov 3, 2010)

If we want it to be able to "attack" an unwilling host, we'll probably need one.  If not, we can probably skip it.


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## Cleon (Nov 4, 2010)

Shade said:


> If we want it to be able to "attack" an unwilling host, we'll probably need one.  If not, we can probably skip it.




I wouldn't make it a special attack, per se. Maybe just have a note in the description they spread by spores which take root if they land on a suitable host (DC X Fortitude save to resist).


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## Shade (Nov 5, 2010)

If we're gonna throw a save on it, might as well make it a special attack.


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## Cleon (Nov 6, 2010)

Shade said:


> If we're gonna throw a save on it, might as well make it a special attack.




*Spores (Ex):* Once a year, skullcap ivy produces hundreds of thistledown-like seeds. Should one of these seeds land on a suitable host (any warm-blooded sapient creature with hair), the creature must succeed at a DC15 Fortitude save or the seed takes root and grows into a new skullcap ivy plant.

A skullcap ivy infestation can be removed by anything that kills the plant, the simplest method is rubbing the infested areas with strong alcohol.


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## freyar (Nov 7, 2010)

Works for me.  My instinct is to make the DC Con-based, but that's pretty pathetic.  We might mention that the seeds can be harvested and applied intentionally.


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## Cleon (Nov 7, 2010)

freyar said:


> Works for me.  My instinct is to make the DC Con-based, but that's pretty pathetic.  We might mention that the seeds can be harvested and applied intentionally.




Yes, there are folk who specialize in planting and pruning skullcap ivy. Some call them _head gardeners_.


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## Shade (Nov 8, 2010)

Spores looks good, and I'm fine with a crappy, Con-based DC.


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## freyar (Nov 9, 2010)

Ok.   Let's also get rid of the run-on and add a short germination time:

Spores (Ex): Once a year, skullcap ivy produces hundreds of thistledown-like seeds. Should one of these seeds land on a suitable host (any warm-blooded sapient creature with hair), the creature must succeed at a DC 10 Fortitude save or the seed takes root and grows into a new skullcap ivy plant in 1d3 weeks.  A skullcap ivy infestation can be removed by anything that kills the plant: the simplest method is rubbing the infested areas with strong alcohol before the plant germinates.  However, some adventurers intentionally apply skullcap ivy spores and automatically fail their saves.  The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## Shade (Nov 10, 2010)

Updated.


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## Cleon (Nov 10, 2010)

freyar said:


> Ok.   Let's also get rid of the run-on and add a short germination time:
> 
> Spores (Ex): Once a year, skullcap ivy produces hundreds of thistledown-like seeds. Should one of these seeds land on a suitable host (any warm-blooded sapient creature with hair), the creature must succeed at a DC 10 Fortitude save or the seed takes root and grows into a new skullcap ivy plant in 1d3 weeks.  A skullcap ivy infestation can be removed by anything that kills the plant: the simplest method is rubbing the infested areas with strong alcohol before the plant germinates.  However, some adventurers intentionally apply skullcap ivy spores and automatically fail their saves.  The save DC is Constitution-based.




Looks good.


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## Shade (Nov 11, 2010)

All done?


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## Cleon (Nov 12, 2010)

Shade said:


> All done?




I don't care for the first paragraph's description of how the ivy grows, and there are two typos in the following paragraph "taking *adavantage*" and "trying once *agains*".

How about:

Skullcap ivy is a symbiotic plant that makes its home on the scalps of  sentient creatures.  It begins as a floating, wispy seed pod, borne on  the air like dandelion fluff.  When a seed pod lands on a humanoid head,  it burrows into the scalp and takes root. The host organism starts losing his or her natural hair as shoots of green ivy grow from their  head. As the plant matures, it  spreads along the scalp, in time it completely replaces the hair with a network of ivy-like shoots with  broad, heart-shaped leaves. Skullcap ivy kills off hair follicles in the scalp,  so the hair does not grow back if the ivy is later  removed.

Skullcap ivy is an opportunistic symbiote, taking advantage of any  chance encounter with its favorite environment:  the scalp of an  intelligent mammal.  If the wind does not find it a potential host, the  seed pod sinks roots into the soil and becomes a normal, earth-based  plant.  When the time comes for it to take to seed, however, it casts  its pods to the fortunes of the wind, trying once again to find a  suitable host.


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## freyar (Nov 14, 2010)

Works for me.


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## Cleon (Nov 14, 2010)

freyar said:


> Works for me.




Is that it then?


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## Shade (Nov 15, 2010)

It appears so.  Next!

*Explodestool*
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
NO. APPEARING: 10-100
ARMOR CLASS: 10
MOVE: Nil
HIT DICE: 1 hit point
% IN LAIR: 100%
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 explosion 
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-2 
SPECIAL ATTACKS : Deafening
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil 
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard 
INTELLIGENCE: Non- 
ALIGNMENT: Neutral 
SIZE: S (1 inch high, 2 inch diameter) 
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil 
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: I/8

Explodestools appear to be normal, edible mushrooms, and are only discernible for what they are by a ranger or druid of 5th level or higher, or by a sage who has studied plants and fungi. They are 50% likely to be found with normal mushrooms, and they grow anywhere above or below ground where other fungi grow.

If a ripe explodestool is touched, it will explode like a firecracker, doing 1-2 hp damage to the disturber and 1 hp damage to all others within a 10' radius of it. All beings within 10' will be deafened for 1 turn if they fail a saving throw vs, paralyzation.  The deafening causes a ringing sound in the victim's ears. This ringing has a chance of ruining a spell that the victim is trying to cast if the spell has a verbal component (because the ability to hear has a great effect on the quality of one's speech).  The chance of failure is 50 % minus 1 % per level of the caster, plus 1 % per level of the spell. Thus, a 12th-level magic-user trying to cast a cloudkill spell has a 43 % chance (50% -12 % +5%) of having the spell ruined if he is deafened before the casting ends.

A bursting explodestool has a 90 % chance to set off any other explodestool within a 10' radius of it. This phenomenon can cause a chain reaction that can be devastating to a group. (A separate saving throw vs. deafness must be attempted for every explodestool that is set off within 10' of a potential victim.) Explodestools can be destroyed by fire or cold-based attacks without setting them off, but any attack involving physical contact with a ripe explodestool will cause it to burst – including a real blow from a weapon such as a frost brand or flame tongue sword. However, these weapons will kill an explodestool if they are held near it without touching it.

When an explodestool bursts, it scatters spores in a 50' radius if there is no wind, or up to 200' away in the direction of the wind current if one exists. These spores can be collected and stored in a dry container for up to a month without losing their potency. It takes four days for an explodestool to become fully grown from a spore and able to explode. Most explodestool colonies have immature specimens growing on the edge of the colony, so adventurers will usually have trouble identifying an explodestool colony untd they are in the middle of the group.

Some castle owners plant explodestools (often mixed with normal mushrooms, so the enemy won't know where it's safe to step) around the structure's outer walls as a warning and protection device.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #89 (1984).


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## freyar (Nov 16, 2010)

I hate to say it, but I think we have another hazard here.


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## Shade (Nov 16, 2010)

I can't argue with that.


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## freyar (Nov 18, 2010)

Ok, I'm thinking take a thunderstone and tack on some actual sonic damage, too.  I'd say being stepped on by a critter of X lb or more or taking any weapon or sonic damage sets them off (and destroys them), while fire, acid, cold damage destroy them without setting them off (what about other types, like force?).  Sound like a good framework?


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## Shade (Nov 18, 2010)

That _sounds_ like a most excellent framework.

<sets off explodestools>


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## freyar (Nov 19, 2010)

Okey-dokey, then, rough draft time:

Explodestools (CR X): Explodestools appear to be small mushrooms of an edible nature, which grow mixed with normal mushrooms of similar appearance.  A DC X Spot check or DC X Knowledge (nature) check is sufficient to detect the presence of explodestools within a patch of mushrooms.  If a character of over 50?? lb steps on an explodestool, the mushroom explodes, dealing XdX sonic damage to and deafening any creature within 10 ft for one hour.  A DC X Fortitude save negates the deafening.  (If the character steps on a 5 ft space containing an explodestool, the mushroom explodes if it succeeds at a melee touch against the character with an attack bonus of +0??)  An explodestool will similarly explode if it is plucked or takes any weapon, force, or sonic damage, including sonic damage from the explosion of other explodestools.  On the other hand, any fire, cold, or acid damage destroy explodestools without setting them off.  Any 5 ft patch of mushrooms containing explodestools will contain 1d6? fungi of the exploding variety.


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## Shade (Nov 19, 2010)

What kind of high do you get from eating one?


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## Cleon (Nov 19, 2010)

So we're back to scraping the bottom of the Dragon's Creature Catalog again, are we? 



freyar said:


> Ok, I'm thinking take a thunderstone and tack on some actual sonic damage, too.  I'd say being stepped on by a critter of X lb or more or taking any weapon or sonic damage sets them off (and destroys them), while fire, acid, cold damage destroy them without setting them off (what about other types, like force?).  Sound like a good framework?




That's a good start.

I'd say force damage should cause them to explode.


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## Cleon (Nov 19, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I don't care for the first paragraph's description of how the ivy grows, and there are two typos in the following paragraph "taking *adavantage*" and "trying once *agains*".




The Skullcap Ivy's still got those two typos in it, and I've just noticed another - There's a period missing in "suffocation.Also" in the last paragraph.


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## Shade (Nov 19, 2010)

Cleon said:


> The Skullcap Ivy's still got those two typos in it, and I've just noticed another - There's a period missing in "suffocation.Also" in the last paragraph.




Corrected.


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## freyar (Nov 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> What kind of high do you get from eating one?



I guess if you bent down and bit one off at the ground, it'd be like a really giant poprock!  

Well, we're agreed on the force damage.  What do you guys think about the numbers?


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## Cleon (Nov 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, we're agreed on the force damage.  What do you guys think about the numbers?




I think it'd be simpler if the 'stools automatically explode if someone heavy enough steps into the 5 ft. square they sprout from.

I'd fancy increasing the damage a bit. 1d8 in square, 1d2 in adjacent squares?


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## Shade (Nov 22, 2010)

It would seem you should be able to avoid setting off an explodestool in a similar manner to getting through an entangled area (move at half speed).


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## freyar (Nov 23, 2010)

I took the attack roll bit from caltrops, and I'm happy to modify it.  However, I'm with Shade in thinking you shouldn't always hit one if you step in the same 5 ft square.  They're just hazards, so they can have a little more complication.   Funny that Cleon's the one who wants to simplify this time. 

How's this revision?

Explodestools (CR X): Explodestools appear to be small mushrooms of an edible nature, which grow mixed with normal mushrooms of similar appearance. A DC X Spot check or DC X Knowledge (nature) check is sufficient to detect the presence of explodestools within a patch of mushrooms. If a character of over 50?? lb steps in a 5 ft square containing an explodestool, the character must make a DC X Reflex save or the mushroom explodes, dealing 1d8 sonic damage to and deafening any creature within 10 ft for one hour. A DC X Fortitude save negates the deafening.  An explodestool will similarly explode if it is plucked or takes any weapon, force, or sonic damage, including sonic damage from the explosion of other explodestools. On the other hand, any fire, cold, or acid damage destroy explodestools without setting them off. Any 5 ft patch of mushrooms containing explodestools will contain 1d6? fungi of the exploding variety.  If a character recognizes the presence of explodestools within a patch of fungi, he or she can avoid setting off the explodestools by moving at half speed through the patch.

Any more opinions on numbers?


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## Shade (Nov 23, 2010)

Looking good.  I'd recommend DC 15 for the saves, 18 for the detect checks, and would probably do away with the weight limit (or make it sufficiently lower)--I wouldn't want gnomes and halflings to get a pass.


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## freyar (Nov 24, 2010)

Make it lower, I guess.  Fill in numbers as you like for the homebrews, and I'm good to go with it. CR 2 maybe?  Those are decent DCs, and the damage isn't bad.


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## Cleon (Nov 24, 2010)

Shade said:


> It would seem you should be able to avoid setting off an explodestool in a similar manner to getting through an entangled area (move at half speed).




I'd prefer it if they normally exploded automatically, but you could pick your way through them with a Reflex or Balance check.

I'd also set the weight limit to 8 pounds, the standard minimum for Small sizes.

Oh, and I was bundling the explosion damage of all the explodestools in a patch together to get the 1d8 damage. If you have 1d6 mushrooms in a patch doesn't that mean they can do up to 6d8 damage? That seems too much.

e.g.:

*Explodestools (CR X)*
Explodestools appear to be small mushrooms of an  edible nature, which grow mixed with normal mushrooms of similar  appearance. A DC X Spot check or DC X Knowledge (nature) check is  sufficient to detect the presence of explodestools within a patch of  mushrooms.

If a creature weighing over 8 pounds steps in a 5 ft square  containing explodestools all the fungi in the square explode, dealing 1d8 sonic damage to and deafening any  creature within 10 ft for one hour. A DC Y Fortitude save negates the  deafening. An explodestool will similarly explode if it is plucked or  takes any weapon, force, or sonic damage, including sonic damage from  the explosion of other explodestools. On the other hand, any fire, cold,  or acid damage destroy explodestools without setting them off.

 If a character recognizes the presence of  explodestools within a patch of fungi, he or she can avoid setting off  the explodestools by moving at half speed through the patch and succeeding at a DC Z Reflex save or Balance check.


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## freyar (Nov 25, 2010)

If you're already moving at half-speed, you shouldn't have to Balance or make a Ref save (or Tumble, etc).  

I can go with combining all the explodestools in one 5 ft patch, but I inist that neighboring patches be set off by the first explosion and do independent damage. 

I think we're converging on this.


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## Cleon (Nov 26, 2010)

freyar said:


> If you're already moving at half-speed, you shouldn't have to Balance or make a Ref save (or Tumble, etc).




Problem with that, it means the explodestools are no threat to anyone moving at half speed (unless someone or something else sets them off). If you don't like the "auto-BOOM" approach of someone moving at normal speed, how about having two DCs to set them off, say DC18 Balance/Reflex for normal movement and DC10 Balance/Reflex for cautious movement?



freyar said:


> I can go with combining all the explodestools in one 5 ft patch, but I inist that neighboring patches be set off by the first explosion and do independent damage.




Damage from neighboring patches is already in the draft.

Speaking of which, didn't the original version have a 5' radius explosion? I prefer the 10' radius we're using in the current draft.


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## freyar (Nov 29, 2010)

Actually, the 10 ft radius is already the original value, so that's an added bonus. 

I think the half-speed movement "evasion" only works if the PC knows about the explodestools the way it's written.  That said, I could go with the reduced save DC version if Shade also agrees.  I think the way it's written is more consistent with caltrops, though.


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## Shade (Nov 29, 2010)

freyar said:


> I think the half-speed movement "evasion" only works if the PC knows about the explodestools the way it's written.




That was my assumption as well.



freyar said:


> That said, I could go with the reduced save DC version if Shade also agrees.  I think the way it's written is more consistent with caltrops, though.




I too can go along with it, but second the motion that the current version is better for consistency's sake.


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## Cleon (Nov 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> I too can go along with it, but second the motion that the current version is better for consistency's sake.




I'd rather their be _*some*_ risk to cautiously walking though a patch of mushroom-mines, even if the walker knows they're there.


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## Shade (Nov 30, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Dec 1, 2010)

Cut the DC on the Ref saves and Balance checks to 10 or 12 (as discussed above), and I'll go along with that.


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## Cleon (Dec 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.




That looks a good start.

Challenge Rating 2 seems too high for something that only does 1d8 damage. I'd think 1 would be generous. That might entail lowering the DCs to Reflex 12, Skill checks 15.

The current DCs work fine though.

The only other tweak I could think of is changing the "damage to any creature within 10 feet" to "damage to everything within a 10 foot radius spread."


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## freyar (Dec 2, 2010)

It could do damage to objects, sure.

Don't forget the deafening effect when working out the CR, though.  I could see CR 1, but I don't want to undervalue it.  But I don't like having the Ref and Balance DCs so high for the half-speed movement for CR 2 or worse CR 1.


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2010)

Agreed with damaging objects and sticking with CR 2.   

What DCs do you fancy, freyar?


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## freyar (Dec 3, 2010)

The Spot and Know. check DCs are ok, I think.  I'd drop the Ref save to DC 10 and the Balance either to 10 or 12, as you prefer.


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## Cleon (Dec 4, 2010)

freyar said:


> The Spot and Know. check DCs are ok, I think.  I'd drop the Ref save to DC 10 and the Balance either to 10 or 12, as you prefer.




I'd like the Balance DC to be higher than the Reflex DC.


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## Shade (Dec 6, 2010)

freyar said:


> The Spot and Know. check DCs are ok, I think.  I'd drop the Ref save to DC 10 and the Balance either to 10 or 12, as you prefer.






Cleon said:


> I'd like the Balance DC to be higher than the Reflex DC.




Reflex 10 and Balance 12 then?

Keep the Fort at 15, or lower it too?


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## freyar (Dec 7, 2010)

The Fort DC is the same as a thunderstone, so I'd say that's appropriate for CR 2.


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## Shade (Dec 7, 2010)

Updated.  Finished?


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## freyar (Dec 7, 2010)

Looks good to go.


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## Cleon (Dec 7, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Finished?




They look good to go, although I'm not convinced they aren't CR 1.


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2010)

*Firethorn*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Grasslands, saltwater swamps
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Cluster
ACTIVE TIME: Any
DIET: Nutrients
INTELLIGENCE: Non (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral 
NO. APPEARING: 20-200
ARMOR CLASS: 8 
MOVEMENT: 0
HIT DICE: 6
THAC0: 15 
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1d10 
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d2 + special
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Poison, fire
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Confusion, immune to fire
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil 
SIZE: M (4’ radius) 
MORALE: Average (8-10) 
XP VALUE: 1400


The firethorn, or sea rose, is a rare plant that only grows along tropical or subtropical sea coasts. The only place it is known to grow in abundance is on several isolated tropical islands.  Firethorns can be found scattered in coastal seasonal grasslands but more commonly spread in clusters to form dense, matted carpets in tropical saltwater swamplands. Resembling nothing so much as squat, broad rose bushes, firethorns produce about twenty brllliant scarlet blooms per plant. Each bloom has its attendant thorn (from 1 to 10 of them). There are no thorns on the main branches of the bush, nor are there any on the flower stems except near the bloom. Sea roses have a distinctive, heady perfume that is noticeable several hundred feet away.

Combat: The scent the plant exudes is a powerful defense. Anyone approaching within ten feet must make a saving throw vs. poison or be affected. Those affected act as if under a confusion spell for 2d4 rounds. This may bring them into contact with the plant by accident, thus setting in motion its thorn attacks. When traveling through an area which has several plants, only one saving throw per half-hour spent in the terrain is needed. Subsequent saving throws in the same area are at a cumulative +1 bonus, as those affected build up a short-term reslstance.

Though not intelligent, sea roses have effective modes of self-defense. Anyone plucking one of the blooms or brushing against one is subiect to attack by one to ten thorns that spring out at the offending creature, doing 1d2 points of damage each.  Two saving throws must then be made. A saving throw vs. paralyzation determines whether the thorns will inflict 1d3 points of fire damage per thorn (magic which protects against fire negates this damage). The second saving throw is made to resist the sea rose's extremely virulent poison: failure means immediate death, while success reduces the injury to 20 points of damage. Only one save vs. poison and one save vs. paralyzation are required, even if multiple thorns hit.

Sea roses trap and hold heat from the sun and are immune to both normal and magical fire.

Habitat/Sociery: It is unknown whether the sea rose is a naturally occurring plant or the result of some botanically inclined wizard's experiment. Sometimes confused with the legendary roses of forgetfulness because of their confusion properties, firethorns are actually more like weeds than garden flowers. They resist being transplanted and cultivated, though they self-pollinate and spread over large areas when conditions are right.

Perhaps their most intriguing quality is the glow they emit at night.  Storing heat from the sun, the blossoms of the plant glow like banked embers in the dark.  The heat given off from a single firethorn bush is about equal to that of a small lantern.  Several bushes together emit about as much heat as a bonfire.  They only radiate heat at night, with the excess warmth beign stored in their thorns until evening, leading some people to speculate that this heat exchange is somehow necessary to their growth and propagation.  Firethorns respond normally to druidical spells which relate to plants.

Ecolgoy:  Aside from their role in anchoring soil in salt swamplands, firethorns can be harvested (carefully) for several products.  Chief among these is the beautiful scarlet dye which can be used in making a heady perfume or, when correctly rendered, as an ingredient in a potion of dreaming.  The thorns from an entire bush provide 1 to 6 doses of type E poison, but the toxin breaks down into a harmless substance after about a week.

Originally appeared in Corsairs of the Great Sea (1994).  This is the Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Two version.


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## freyar (Dec 16, 2010)

Kind of sounds like a hazard again, but I could see adding just a little to them to make them a monster.  What do you think?


----------



## Cleon (Dec 17, 2010)

freyar said:


> Kind of sounds like a hazard again, but I could see adding just a little to them to make them a monster.  What do you think?




They look more like a mindless, immobile monster to me. Six hit dice, attacks with thorns that "spring out". It doesn't say these thorns roll to hit, but they've got a THAC0 listed so I'm assuming they do.

They have approx. 20 blooms with 1d10 thorns per bloom and attack with  1d10 thorns per provocation, which implies they lash out with a bloom  when attacking.

Do the thorns detach from the bloom when it attacks? If they do lose the thorns they can only attack as many times as they have blooms.

Rather than 1-10 attacks each doing 1d2 damage I think it'd be easier to give them a "bloom" attack - 1d10 plus 2d10 fire damage, with some special bonus to hit?


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## Shade (Dec 17, 2010)

Cleon said:


> They look more like a mindless, immobile monster to me. Six hit dice, attacks with thorns that "spring out". It doesn't say these thorns roll to hit, but they've got a THAC0 listed so I'm assuming they do.




I like this approach.



Cleon said:


> Do the thorns detach from the bloom when it attacks? If they do lose the thorns they can only attack as many times as they have blooms.




I'd say "no", but it's debatable.



Cleon said:


> Rather than 1-10 attacks each doing 1d2 damage I think it'd be easier to give them a "bloom" attack - 1d10 plus 2d10 fire damage, with some special bonus to hit?




Yeah, that's much better.


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## Cleon (Dec 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> I like this approach.




Let's follow that then. I would suggest a Violet Fungi or Shrieker would be a good Plant creature to base it on.



Shade said:


> I'd say "no", but it's debatable.




I would prefer the thorns not to detach, but raised the question because it wasn't clear from the text.



Shade said:


> Yeah, that's much better.




Let's see, 1d10 thorns averages 5.5, each thorn does 1d2 damage for a 1.5 average, 5.5 times 1.5 equals 8.25 average damage.

2d6 or 1d12 damage?

Plus "ignite" for 1d20 fire damage (Reflex save for half)?


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2010)

Like I said, just jazz it up a little to make it a monster. 

I don't think the thorns detach, either.

Go with 1d12 since we don't get to use that enough  and ignite as proposed.


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## Shade (Dec 20, 2010)

Let's base it off a shrieker, since a violet fungus is mobile.


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## Cleon (Dec 21, 2010)

Shade said:


> Let's base it off a shrieker, since a violet fungus is mobile.




Here goes nothing!

A Shrieker doesn't have a Strength score, so the firethorn wouldn't be able to do any damage when it "lashes out".

A shrieker also doesn't have a Dexterity score, so if we want to keep the AC to the equivalent of the original Firethorn's AC8 it'll need a high natural armour.

How about averaging the stats of the two Fungi?

Shrieker: Str —, Dex —, Con 13, Int —, Wis 2, Cha 1
 Violet Fungi: Str 14, Dex 8, Con 16, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 9
Firethorn: Str 7, Dex 4, Con 15, Int —, Wis 6, Cha 5

Hmm, I think I'd rather lean toward the Shrieker - Str 10, Wis 6, Cha 1?

*Firethorn*
Medium Plant
Hit Dice: 6d8+12 (39 hp)
Initiative: -3
Speed: 0 ft.
Armor Class: 12 (-3 Dex, +5 natural), touch 7, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+4
Attack: Thorns +6? melee (1d12 plus ignite)
Full Attack: Thorns +6? melee (1d12 plus ignite)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Confusing scent, ignite, thorns
Special Qualities: Low-light vision or blind?, plant traits, tremorsense 60 ft.?
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +2, Will +0
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 4, Con 15, Int —, Wis 6, Cha 1
Skills: —
Feats: —
Environment: plains or swamps
Organization: Solitary, patch (2-20) or cluster (20-200)
Challenge Rating: 4?
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 7-9 HD (Medium) ?
Level Adjustment: —

*Confusing Scent (Ex):* Firethorns emit a mind-affecting perfume which causes _confusion_ for 1d6 rounds in any creature that does not succeed at a DC X Fortitude save. The scent affects any creature what comes too close to a firethorn (usually 10 ft, but a strong wind can change the range to 5 ft. upwind and 20 ft. downwind).

*Ignite (Ex):* A firethorn's thorns burst into flames whenever they strike an opponent, doing an additional 1d20 fire damage (DC X Reflex save for half damage).

*Thorns (Ex):* A firethorn's thorn attack has a +2 bonus to attack rolls. Any creature or object struck by the thorns will be burnt by the thorns bursting into fire (see Ignite).


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## freyar (Dec 22, 2010)

Why the seemingly random +2 bonus to attack?  We also seem to need to add a Con-damage poison to the thorns, right?

Want to add an SQ saying they give off heat or leave that as flavor text?


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> Why the seemingly random +2 bonus to attack?  We also seem to need to add a Con-damage poison to the thorns, right?




Yeah, don't like that.  I'd rather boost Str and/or give it Weapon Focus as a bonus feat.



freyar said:


> Want to add an SQ saying they give off heat or leave that as flavor text?




Since it appears nondamaging, flavor text will probably suffice.


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## Cleon (Dec 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> Why the seemingly random +2 bonus to attack?  We also seem to need to add a Con-damage poison to the thorns, right?




Why? To make it hit more often, obviously! 

You see, the original's 1-10 thorn attacks meant it was very likely one or more would hit. Since we've folded that all into one "thorns" attack I though it best to add an attack bonus to give is a reasonable chance of inflicting damage.



freyar said:


> Want to add an SQ saying they give off heat or leave that as flavor text?




Since it doesn't have an in-combat use I think we can leave it as flavour.


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## Cleon (Dec 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yeah, don't like that.  I'd rather boost Str and/or give it Weapon Focus as a bonus feat.




I would like to keep the damage bonus as low as possible, so I'd go for one of the following:

#1 WF and GWF (thorns)
#2 Str 12 and WF (thorns)
#3 Str 14 and "secondary damage bonus" for thorns

Of those I'm leaning towards #2.


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2010)

Agreed.  #2 is the only option that makes sense.

Another option:  Area attack requiring Reflex save.  Essentially, the thorns lash out and quickly retract as a burst.


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## Cleon (Dec 28, 2010)

Shade said:


> Agreed.  #2 is the only option that makes sense.
> 
> Another option:  Area attack requiring Reflex save.  Essentially, the thorns lash out and quickly retract as a burst.




Could work, some kind of "Thorny Defense" that's triggered the first time a creature over a given size enters a square it threatens?

Reflex save for half damage I suppose.


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## Shade (Dec 28, 2010)

That'll work.  I'd say Tiny or larger.


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## freyar (Dec 29, 2010)

I'll agree to that.  It seems perhaps even closer to the original intent than an attack anyway.


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## Shade (Dec 30, 2010)

Like so?

Thorny Defense (Ex):  When a Tiny or larger creature moves within 5 feet of a firethorn, the plant strikes out with all its thorns.  Treat this as a 5-foot-radius burst.   Creatures within the area take 1d12 points of piercing damage.  A successful DC X Reflex save halves the damage.  The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## Cleon (Dec 31, 2010)

Shade said:


> Like so?
> 
> Thorny Defense (Ex):  When a Tiny or larger creature moves within 5 feet of a firethorn, the plant strikes out with all its thorns.  Treat this as a 5-foot-radius burst.   Creatures within the area take 1d12 points of piercing damage.  A successful DC X Reflex save halves the damage.  The save DC is Constitution-based.




Not quite, it's missing the fire damage and I'd consider adding a limit to the number of times it can do it per round.

e.g.
*
Thorny Defense (Ex):*  When a Tiny or larger creature moves within 5 feet  of a firethorn, the plant strikes out with all its thorns.  Treat this  as a 5-foot-radius burst.   Creatures within the area take 1d12 points  of piercing damage plus 1d20 points of fire damage.  A successful DC *X* Reflex save halves the damage.   A firethorn can use thorny defense *Y* times per round. The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## freyar (Jan 3, 2011)

Twice per round?


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## Shade (Jan 4, 2011)

Added to Homebrews.


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## Cleon (Jan 4, 2011)

freyar said:


> Twice per round?




Two times is fine by me.


----------



## Shade (Jan 4, 2011)

Besides flavor text, what remains?


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## Cleon (Jan 5, 2011)

Shade said:


> Besides flavor text, what remains?




My inevitable conquest of the Earth?

Hold on, don't Plants have poor reflex saves? That would give it Ref -1, not Ref +2.


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## Shade (Jan 5, 2011)

Cleon said:
			
		

> My inevitable conquest of the Earth?




Patience...the day is nearly at hand.  

Updated.  Finished?


----------



## freyar (Jan 6, 2011)

Looks pretty much done.


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## Cleon (Jan 9, 2011)

freyar said:


> Looks pretty much done.




There's a few missing or extraneous words in the flavour text and one typo:

"_This squat, broad rose bush boasts about twenty brllliant scarlet, each_" is presumably "_twenty brilliant scarlet blossoms_".

Plus, "Firethorns gain their name from their ability to store heat from the  sunlight, resulting in their the blossoms glowing like banked embers in  the dark." has two thes that aren't needed.

There's also a "beign" that should be "being".

There's also a few "thats" and a "somehow" which can be cut out without sacrificing meaning.

Also they don't only radiate heat at night, since presumably they use stored heat for the fire damage of their Thorny Defence.

Revising...

_This squat, broad rose bush boasts about twenty brilliant  scarlet blossoms, each with an attendant thorn. There are no thorns on the main  branches of the bush, nor are there any on the flower stems except near  the bloom.  The blossoms give off a distinctive, heady perfume._

The firethorn, or sea rose, is a rare plant that only grows along  tropical or subtropical sea coasts. The only place it is known to grow  in abundance is on several isolated tropical islands.  Firethorns can be  found scattered in coastal seasonal grasslands but more commonly spread  in clusters to form dense, matted carpets in tropical saltwater  swamplands. 

Firethorns gain their name from their ability to absorb heat from sunlight, resulting in their blossoms glowing like banked embers in the dark. They store the  excess warmth in their thorns until evening, then radiate the heat at night, leading some  people to speculate that this heat exchange is necessary to  their growth and propagation.  A single firethorn bush radiates heat about  equal to a small lantern, several bushes together may emit as  much heat as a bonfire. Firethorns can also emit their stored heat in rapid bursts to burn creatures that disturb them.

A typical firethorn grows to a radius of 4 feet.


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## freyar (Jan 10, 2011)

That looks pretty good.  I also just realized that we forgot to add that they're immune to fire damage!


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## Shade (Jan 10, 2011)

Updated.

Here's the next one...

*Amber Lotus Flowers*
Armor Class: 9 
Hit Dice: ½ 
Movement: 0
Attacks: 1
Damage: special Alignment: Neutral
No. Appearing: 0 (3-18)
Save As: Normal Man
Morale: 12
Treasure Type: Nil

Amber lotus flowers look like golden water lilies the size of sunflowers. When a creature approaches within 10' the blossoms open and spray a 40' x 40' cloud of pollen. Any individual within the affected area must save vs. Spells or fall asleep for 4-16 turns. The flowers can spray a fresh burst of pollen every 3-12 rounds. Amber lotus flowers are often found acting in concert with other deadly plants such as vampire roses and killer trees.

Originally appeared in X2 - Castle Amber (1981).


Mystara Monstrous Compendium Appendix version…

*Plant, Dangerous (Mystara), Amber Lotus* 
Climate/Terrain: Temperate to tropical forests, jungles, and swamps 
Frequency: Rare 
Organization: Solitary 
Activity Cycle: Day 
Diet: Soil, water 
Intelligence: Non- (0) 
Treasure: Nil 
Alignment: Neutral 
No. Appearing: 3d6 
Armor Class: 9 
Movement: Nil 
Hit Dice: 1-4 hit points 
THAC0: Nil 
No. of Attacks: 0 
Damage/Attack: Nil 
Special Attacks: Sleep pollen 
Special Defenses: Nil 
Magic Resistance: Nil 
Size: T (6” diameter) 
Morale: Steady (12) 
XP Value: 15 

Mystara is home to a number of hostile plants. Most are innocent in appearance, and the majority of characters will not be able to identify them. Characters who encounter a hostile plant gain the ability to identify that species in the future.

If desired, a DM may allow druids to identify dangerous plants before stumbling into them. This should involve an ability check or other die roll; the identification process should not be error free. As a guideline, most druids should be able to identify such plants with a Wisdom check made at 50%. In addition, PCs with the Herbalism proficiency may be able to identify such plants with a proficiency check made at 50%.

Amber Lotus

These flowers look like golden water lilies as large as sunflowers growing in calm ponds or swamps; some varieties grow on vines that creep up tree trunks. Their attractive appearance and serene setting is deceptive to the viewer, giving no clue as to the flower’s true nature.

The amher lotus flower responds to ground vibrations. When a creature approaches within 10 feet of the plant, its blossoms open, each spraying a cloud of pollen 40 feet in diameter. Any individual within the flower’s pollen cloud must make a successful saving throw vs. poison or fall fast asleep for 4d4 turns. Nothing can wake the victim sooner.

The flowers can spray a fresh burst of pollen every 3d4 rounds. Creatures that are resistant to sleep and charm spells (such as elves, half-elves, and pegataurs) are equally resistant to the pollen of the amber lotus flower.

Amber lotus flowers get their nutrition in the same way as normal plants; no unusual conditions are required for its health. The pollen spray is a defense mechanism to protect the flower from potential threats. Amber lotus flowers are often found groing with other deadly plants such as vampire roses, archer bushes, or killer trees. The amber lotus flower enjoy a symbiotic relationship with these, and other floral predators. The amber lotus flower incapacitates a victim, the other plants than kill it, and all benefit from fertilization resulting from the victim’s remains.

Some humans and other intelligent creatures may cultivate this flower for protection around homes, forbidden places, temples, and so forth. Druids and elves sometimes use the amber lotus flower to guard sacred worship sites, and are rumored to somehow train the plants to spray pollen only on strangers who trespass.

The sleep pollen is prized by alchemists for sleep powders and even poisonous sleep salve that can be smeared on a weapon. A dozen amber lotus flowers are required to make enough sleep poison to fill one vial; such a vial contains enough salve to coat one short sword or the equivalent.


Savage Coast Monstrous Compendium Appendix version…

*Plant (Savage Coast), Amber Lotus *
Climate/Terrain: River 
Frequency: Common 
Organization: Bed 
Activity Cycle: Any 
Diet: Nil 
Intelligence: Non- (0) 
Treasure: Nil 
Alignment: Neutral 
No. Appearing: 1 
Armor Class: 10 
Movement: Nil 
Hit Dice: 1 hp 
THAC0: 20 
No. of Attacks: 0 
Damage/Attack: Nil 
Special Attacks: Sleep 
Special Defenses: Nil 
Magic Resistance: Nil 
Size: S (1’ diameter) 
Morale: Average (8-10) 
XP Value: 35/1,400  

Amber Lotus

The amber lotus is a variety of aquatic plant thriving in the Dream River marking the eastern border of Renardy. The amber lotus has wide, circular leaves, much like those found on a water lily. Depending on the winds, amber lotus pollen can travel for miles, sticking to everything it touches (grass, trees, creatures, etc.). Amber lotus pollen acts as a powerful sleeping poison. Anyone who comes in contact with the pollen must make a successful saving throw vs. poison with a -2 penalty or fall asleep for a minimum 1d4+1 days. If the wind does not shift, the victim will never wake up. The victims of the sleeping pollen often die from attacks by other creatures while asleep. Their bodies then decay and provide nourishment for the plants.

The powerful sleeping effect of the amber lotus has so far prevented both Eusdrian and Renardois expansion to the north. Batracines are immune to amber lotus and can often be found hiding underneath or sitting on the lotus pads.

A bed of amber lotus contains 3d100+100 plants. Anyone approaching closer to the bed than 1 yard per plant is affected by the sleeping spores.

A victim who survives an encounter with the amber lotus receives 35 experience points. Actually wiping out a bed of these plants earns characters an additional award of 1,400 experience points.


----------



## freyar (Jan 10, 2011)

First question: hazard or plant?

2nd question: go with the regular version or the more deadly savage coast version (makes you sleep longer)?


----------



## Shade (Jan 11, 2011)

First answer:  I think we could work it up either way.

Second answer:  We could go with the regular version, and make the Savage Coast version an underbar.


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## Cleon (Jan 11, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.




It's still got some typos:

_This squat, broad rose bush boasts about twenty *brllliant *scarlet  blossoms, each with an attendant thorn. There are no thorns on the main  branches of the bush, nor are there any on the flower stems except near  the bloom.  The blossoms give off a distinctive, heady perfume._

COMBAT
Though not *agressive*, sea roses have effective modes of self-defense.  Anyone plucking one of the blooms or brushing against one is *subiect *to  attack by the thorns that spring out at the offending creature. 

Should be:

_This squat, broad rose bush boasts about twenty brilliant scarlet  blossoms, each with an attendant thorn. There are no thorns on the main  branches of the bush, nor are there any on the flower stems except near  the bloom.  The blossoms give off a distinctive, heady perfume._

COMBAT
Though not aggressive, sea roses have effective modes of self-defense.  Anyone plucking one of the blooms or brushing against one is subject to  attack by the thorns that spring out at the offending creature.


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## Cleon (Jan 11, 2011)

freyar said:


> First question: hazard or plant?




Sure looks like a Hazard to me.



freyar said:


> 2nd question: go with the regular version or the more deadly savage coast version (makes you sleep longer)?




No objection to 2 versions, with short-duration variant being a species that grows with Plant monsters as in the X2 and Mystara MC Appendix examples.

We could call them Mystaran and Savage Coast Amber Lotuses, but it would be better to give them names that aren't world-specific.

How about making the X2/Mystaran version the Amber Lotus, and the Savage Coast one a "Riverine Amber Lotus" since it only grows in rivers, while the standard Amber Lotus is found in tropical forests, jungles and swamps. Note the River version is more abundant, growing in beds of 103-400 plants instead of the regular version's cluster of 3-18 plants.


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## freyar (Jan 13, 2011)

I'm inclined to go with hazard as well.  I'd be inclined to make the hazard an entire bed of the plants, though, not an individual plant.  Doing 100+ saves in the river case is too many! 

I'm inclined to make the sleeping effect just some kind of Ex ability rather than a poison, but I could be swayed.


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## Shade (Jan 13, 2011)

freyar said:


> I'm inclined to go with hazard as well.  I'd be inclined to make the hazard an entire bed of the plants, though, not an individual plant.  Doing 100+ saves in the river case is too many!




Agreed wholeheartedly!



freyar said:


> I'm inclined to make the sleeping effect just some kind of Ex ability rather than a poison, but I could be swayed.




Ditto.


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## Cleon (Jan 14, 2011)

freyar said:


> I'm inclined to go with hazard as well.  I'd be inclined to make the hazard an entire bed of the plants, though, not an individual plant.  Doing 100+ saves in the river case is too many!
> 
> I'm inclined to make the sleeping effect just some kind of Ex ability rather than a poison, but I could be swayed.




We're agreed then! Shall we do the regular Amber Lotus first.

How about it's a "patch" occupying a 5 ft. square with 3d6 blossoms and 10 hit points (pretty close to total the average hit points of 3d6 one-HP plants). 

Make them take half damage from weapons, like a Tiny swarm?

As for the "poison", a single save vs sleep extraordinary attack is OK by me.


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## freyar (Jan 17, 2011)

I'll agree to that.

Just noticed that a bonus vs charm effects applies to the sleep poison.  Maybe it should be Su, in that case.

I'm inclined to drop the burst business and make it just an aura around the plants.  What do you guys think?


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## Cleon (Jan 17, 2011)

freyar said:


> I'll agree to that.
> 
> Just noticed that a bonus vs charm effects applies to the sleep poison.  Maybe it should be Su, in that case.
> 
> I'm inclined to drop the burst business and make it just an aura around the plants.  What do you guys think?




Yes, just make it a cloud of diameter X centered on the Lotus patch which requires Fort saves by creatures within in, like the "acid spray" of the _Lords of Faerun_ Giant Whip Scorpion. (Although why they called something that does inhaled poison damage an "acid spray" baffled me).


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## freyar (Jan 18, 2011)

I wonder about the Fort save, actually.  If it's Su and allows "charm resistance" maybe it should be a Will save.  I'd be happy enough to go Ex and Fort save, but we need to decide.  What do you guys think?


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## Cleon (Jan 20, 2011)

freyar said:


> I wonder about the Fort save, actually.  If it's Su and allows "charm resistance" maybe it should be a Will save.  I'd be happy enough to go Ex and Fort save, but we need to decide.  What do you guys think?




The original used a save vs. poison which seems a better fit to Fort.


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## freyar (Jan 20, 2011)

I agree with save vs poison being Fort, but a charm effect is really a Will save.  I feel like I'm getting contradictory info.  Could the elf save bonus vs sleep and paralysis have been part of charm back then?


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## Shade (Jan 21, 2011)

I definitely think charm = Will save, regardless of the source.


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## Cleon (Jan 22, 2011)

Shade said:


> I definitely think charm = Will save, regardless of the source.




Well I see it more of an "magical poison" which affects the body (Fort), but is also partially an enchantment (hence the charm bonus to the save). Think of it like an elf's immunity to ghoul paralysis (which if I remember rightly was explained in AD&D as being derived from the elven resistance to sleep & charm spells).


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## freyar (Jan 23, 2011)

I can see the elven to paralysis as being related to immunity to sleep effects (though in 3e, it's magic sleep effects vs the Ex ghoul paralysis ), but the charm bit doesn't make much sense.

Regarding the amber lotus, I'd just be better able to make sense of it if we either went Ex/Fort or Su (charm or compulsion)/Will.


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## Shade (Jan 24, 2011)

freyar said:


> I can see the elven to paralysis as being related to immunity to sleep effects (though in 3e, it's magic sleep effects vs the Ex ghoul paralysis ), but the charm bit doesn't make much sense.
> 
> Regarding the amber lotus, I'd just be better able to make sense of it if we either went Ex/Fort or Su (charm or compulsion)/Will.




Agreed, and my preference is for the latter.


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## freyar (Jan 25, 2011)

Cleon, can you live with one of those two, and which one?


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## Cleon (Jan 25, 2011)

Shade said:


> Agreed, and my preference is for the latter.






freyar said:


> Cleon, can you live with one of those two, and which one?




I prefer Fort (Ex).


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## Shade (Jan 25, 2011)

Break the tie, freyar, or we'll have to rely on the Dice Roller.


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## freyar (Jan 26, 2011)

The different versions are a bit contradictory:

X2 version requires save vs spells, which sounds something like making this Su/Will.
MMC version is save vs poison, which sounds like Ex/Fort, but then it has the whole bonus for critters resistant to sleep or charm spells.
SCMC (deadly) version is save vs poison with no modifiers.

So that's split.  I lean very slightly toward Ex/Fort, but I could see writing in a bonus for elves (like the ghoul).  Might still want to break out the dice.


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## Shade (Jan 26, 2011)

Since you have a slight leaning toward Ex/Fort, I'll concede.


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## Cleon (Jan 28, 2011)

freyar said:


> The different versions are a bit contradictory:
> 
> X2 version requires save vs spells, which sounds something like making this Su/Will.
> MMC version is save vs poison, which sounds like Ex/Fort, but then it has the whole bonus for critters resistant to sleep or charm spells.
> ...




Hold on a second, we were doing two variants weren't we, a "big patch" that causes days of sleep and a "little patch" that causes a few hours/minutes of sleep.

How about we give the little patch a Su/Will "spell pollen" that causes instant sleep, and the big patch version an Ex/Fort "poison pollen" that causes drowziness for its initial effect and days of sleep as its secondary effect?

Making the big patch version's sleep effect secondary poison might explain why it's so big - it makes it more likely its victims don't wander out of it before falling asleep.


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## Shade (Jan 28, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Hold on a second, we were doing two variants weren't we, a "big patch" that causes days of sleep and a "little patch" that causes a few hours/minutes of sleep.
> 
> How about we give the little patch a Su/Will "spell pollen" that causes instant sleep, and the big patch version an Ex/Fort "poison pollen" that causes drowziness for its initial effect and days of sleep as its secondary effect?
> 
> Making the big patch version's sleep effect secondary poison might explain why it's so big - it makes it more likely its victims don't wander out of it before falling asleep.




Great plan!


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## freyar (Jan 28, 2011)

Hmmm, exhausted as primary damage, sleep for secondary?  Sure!  

Ok, which variant first?


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## Cleon (Jan 29, 2011)

freyar said:


> Hmmm, exhausted as primary damage, sleep for secondary?  Sure!
> 
> Ok, which variant first?




I'd start with the mundane version.


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## Shade (Feb 4, 2011)

'tis a good plan.


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## Cleon (Feb 5, 2011)

Shade said:


> 'tis a good plan.




Okay, how's this for a start:

*Amber Lotus (CR 1?)*
Amber lotuses are magical plants with blooms resembling golden, sunflower-sized water lilies. Most amber lotus plants grow in calm ponds or swamps, but some varieties grow on vines that creep up tree trunks. The plant has 20 ft. range blindsight. When an amber lotus senses a creature moving within 10 ft., its blossoms open and spray a 20 ft. diameter spread of pollen; any creature that breathes this pollen must succeed at a DC *X* Will save or fall asleep for *4d4* minutes. The plant can spray pollen every *1d4+4* minutes. Immunity or resistance to sleep effects applies to the sleep caused by amber lotus pollen. While an amber lotus's sleep pollen is not directly dangerous, the plants are often found in concert with deadly plants such as assassin vines, which prey upon the amber lotus's sleeping victims. An amber lotus plant covers a 5-ft square of ground (treat as difficult terrain) and has AC *10* and *2* hit points.


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## Shade (Feb 7, 2011)

That seems a good start.

The usual DC 15 for the save?


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## Cleon (Feb 8, 2011)

Shade said:


> That seems a good start.
> 
> The usual DC 15 for the save?




That's what I was thinking of, yes.

How about adding some text about how to waken the sleepers?

A copy of the _sleep_ spell's "Sleeping creatures are helpless. Slapping or wounding awakens an affected creature, but normal noise does not. Awakening a creature is a standard action (an application of the aid another action)" would do.

I'll revise it and break the text up into paragraphs in the hope it makes it a bit clearer...

*Amber Lotus (CR 1?)*
Amber lotuses are magical plants with blooms resembling golden,  sunflower-sized water lilies. Most amber lotus plants grow in calm ponds  or swamps, but some varieties grow on vines that creep up tree trunks.   An amber lotus plant covers a 5-ft square of ground  (treat as difficult terrain) and has AC *10* and *2* hit points. The plant has 20 ft. range blindsight.

When an amber lotus senses a  creature moving within 10 ft., its blossoms open and spray a 20 ft.  diameter spread of pollen; any creature that breathes this pollen must  succeed at a DC 15 Will save or fall asleep for *4d4* minutes. The plant can spray pollen every *1d4+4*  minutes. Sleeping creatures are helpless. Slapping or wounding awakens an  affected creature, but normal noise does not. Awakening a creature is a  standard action (an application of the aid another action). Immunity or resistance to sleep effects applies to the sleep  caused by amber lotus pollen.

While an amber lotus's sleep pollen is not  directly dangerous, the plants are often found in concert with deadly  plants such as assassin vines, which prey upon the amber lotus's  sleeping victims.


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## freyar (Feb 10, 2011)

Looks pretty good to me.  I think it's important that it only sprays if something is moving, so should we emphasize that somehow?  Also, should resistance/immunity to poison apply?


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## Shade (Feb 10, 2011)

freyar said:


> Looks pretty good to me.  I think it's important that it only sprays if something is moving, so should we emphasize that somehow?  Also, should resistance/immunity to poison apply?




Yeah, it probably should.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 11, 2011)

freyar said:


> Looks pretty good to me.  I think it's important that it only sprays if something is moving, so should we emphasize that somehow?  Also, should resistance/immunity to poison apply?




Curious, I thought I'd already put the poison resistance text in, or am I confusing it with something else?

How's this:

*Amber Lotus (CR 1?)*
Amber lotuses are magical plants with blooms resembling golden,   sunflower-sized water lilies. Most amber lotus plants grow in calm ponds   or swamps, but some varieties grow on vines that creep up tree trunks.    An amber lotus plant covers a 5-ft square of ground  (treat as difficult terrain) and has AC *10* and *2* hit points. The plant has 20 ft. range blindsight.

When an amber lotus senses a  creature moving within 10 ft., its  blossoms open and spray a 20 ft.  diameter spread of pollen; any  creature that breathes this pollen must  succeed at a DC 15 Will save or  fall asleep for *4d4* minutes. The plant can spray pollen every *1d4+4*   minutes, it will not spray pollen if every creature within 10 ft. of the plant remains motionless. Sleeping creatures are helpless. Slapping or wounding awakens  an  affected creature, but normal noise does not. Awakening a creature  is a  standard action (an application of the aid another action). Immunity or resistance to sleep effects or poison applies to the sleep  caused by amber lotus pollen, a _delay poison_ or _neutralize poison_ spell will counteract the pollen.

While an amber lotus's sleep pollen is not  directly dangerous, the  plants are often found in concert with deadly  plants such as assassin  vines, which prey upon the amber lotus's  sleeping victims.


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2011)

Added to Homebrews.

I think CR 1 is about right.


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## Cleon (Feb 11, 2011)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> I think CR 1 is about right.




So do I.

OK to move on to the supernatural version?


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2011)

Cleon said:


> OK to move on to the supernatural version?




I'm satisfied.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'm satisfied.




Hold on, I'm getting confused again. The version we just finished was the supernatural one with a Will-save "spell pollen", the next one is the poison one.

Let's start on it:

*Dream River **Amber Lotus (CR 3?)*
Dream river amber lotus is a dangerous aquatic plant that resembles a water lily with golden-orange blossoms. They are only found in warm climates and thrive in slow-moving, tropical rivers. Dream lotus plants normally grow in large beds between 20 and 40 feet across, but can spread to cover entire lakes or rivers. Each 5-ft square of lotus (treat as difficult terrain) has AC *10* and *2* hit points.

Dream river amber lotus plants continuously emit a potent pollen. This dream pollen covers everything within a radius 20 times wider than the plant bed (i.e. a 20 ft. wide bed of lotus has pollen covering an area 400 ft. wide). Winds may increase the distance traveled by the pollen. Dream pollen is a potent contact poison (Fort DC 18, initial effect exhaustion for 1d4+1 hours, secondary effect unconsciousness for 1d4+1 days). Unconscious victims of the pollen can not be woken by slapping, shouting or even injury. Immunity or resistance to sleep effects or poison applies to the effects  of dream pollen, and powers that alleviate exhaustion also counteract the pollen: a _delay poison_ or _lesser restoration_ spell will improve an unconscious victim to exhausted (or improve an exhausted victim to fatigued), a _neutralize poison_ or _restoration_ spell will eliminate all the pollen's effects.
 
While a dream river amber lotus's dream pollen is not  directly dangerous, victims of the plant often drown or die from attacks by other creatures while unconscious. The pollen quickly loses its potency after leaving the plant.


----------



## freyar (Feb 14, 2011)

Hmm, you're right.  In that case, let's take out the poison resistance bits but spell out that it's an Su effect in the one we just "finished."  The second one looks pretty good.


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## Shade (Feb 15, 2011)

Updated.


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## Cleon (Feb 15, 2011)

freyar said:


> Hmm, you're right.  In that case, let's take out the poison resistance bits but spell out that it's an Su effect in the one we just "finished."  The second one looks pretty good.




We should leave the resistance to sleep bit in, and I'd like to explicate the supernatural nature of the pollen:

*Amber Lotus (CR 1)*
Amber lotuses are magical plants with blooms resembling golden,  sunflower-sized water lilies. Most amber lotus plants grow in calm ponds  or swamps, but some varieties grow on vines that creep up tree trunks.  An amber lotus plant covers a 5-ft square of ground (treat as difficult  terrain) and has AC 10 and 2 hit points. The plant has 20 ft. range  blindsight.

When an amber lotus senses a creature moving within 10 ft., its blossoms  open and spray a 20 ft. diameter spread of supernatural pollen; any creature that  breathes this pollen must succeed at a DC 15 Will save or fall asleep  for 4d4 minutes. The plant can spray pollen every 1d4+4 minutes.  It  will not spray pollen if every creature within 10 ft. of the plant  remains motionless.  This sleep is a mind-affecting enchantment (compulsion) effect, immunity or  resistance to sleep effects applies to the sleep caused by amber lotus  pollen. Sleeping creatures are helpless. Slapping or  wounding awakens an affected creature, but normal noise does not.  Awakening a creature is a standard action (an application of the aid  another action).

While an amber lotus's sleep pollen is not directly dangerous, the  plants are often found in concert with deadly plants such as assassin  vines, which prey upon the amber lotus's sleeping victims.


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## Shade (Feb 16, 2011)

Updated.

What's left?


----------



## Cleon (Feb 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> What's left?




I think the standard lotus is finished, but the Dream River one is still a work in progress.

Is there anything anyone would like to add to the latter?

Maybe a mention that monsters who are immune to its pollen, such as Batracians, often live amidst Dream Lotus beds?


----------



## freyar (Feb 17, 2011)

That would be fine.  There's nothing else to change mechanically, I think, though.


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## Cleon (Feb 19, 2011)

freyar said:


> That would be fine.  There's nothing else to change mechanically, I think, though.




Let's tag that bit on then.

Revising...

*Dream River **Amber Lotus (CR 3?)*
Dream river amber lotus is a dangerous aquatic plant that resembles a  water lily with golden-orange blossoms. They are only found in warm  climates and thrive in slow-moving, tropical  rivers. Dream lotus plants normally grow in large beds between 20 and 40  feet across, but can spread to cover entire lakes or rivers. Each 5-ft square of lotus (treat as difficult terrain) has AC *10* and *2* hit points.

Dream river amber lotus plants continuously emit a potent pollen. This  dream pollen covers everything within a radius 20 times wider than the  plant bed (i.e. a 20 ft. wide bed of lotus has pollen covering an area  400 ft. wide). Winds may increase the distance traveled by the pollen.  Dream pollen is a potent contact poison (Fort DC 18, initial effect  exhaustion for 1d4+1 hours, secondary effect unconsciousness for 1d4+1  days). Unconscious victims of the pollen can not be woken by slapping, shouting or even injury. Immunity  or resistance to sleep effects or poison applies to the effects  of  dream pollen, and powers that alleviate exhaustion also counteract the  pollen: a _delay poison_ or _lesser restoration_ spell will improve an unconscious victim to exhausted (or improve an exhausted victim to fatigued), a _neutralize poison_ or _restoration_ spell will eliminate all the pollen's effects.
 
While a dream river amber lotus's dream pollen is not  directly dangerous, victims of the plant often drown or die from attacks by other creatures while unconscious. The pollen quickly loses its potency after leaving the plant. Aquatic monsters who are immune to dream pollen, such as Batracians, often lair in dream lotus beds.


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## Shade (Feb 21, 2011)

Updated.  I'm happy with them "as is".  Anyone want to add anything else?


----------



## Cleon (Feb 22, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.  I'm happy with them "as is".  Anyone want to add anything else?




No, I'm happy with both.


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## Shade (Feb 23, 2011)

*Gray Mold *
Climate/Terrain: Subterranean 
Frequency: Rare 
Organization: Patch 
Activity Cycle: Any 
Diet: Carnivorous 
Intelligence: Non- (0) 
Treasure: Nil 
Alignment: Neutral 
No. Appearing: 1 patch 
Armor Class: 9 
Movement: 0  
Hit Dice: n/a 
THAC0: n/a  
No. of Attacks: 1 
Damage/Attack: 1d6 
Special Attacks: Spores 
Special Defenses: See below 
Magic Resistance: 35% 
Size: S to L 
Morale:  n/a 
XP Value:  65 

These deadly molds are spore-producing fungi that grow in decaying organic materials. Like all molds, these have a fuzzy, harmless appearance. However, they can be deadly if disturbed, and they are hard to get rid of.

A typical patch of mold covers from 30 to 60 square feet. Patches can be found on walls, ceilings, and floors, and are eaten by a variety of underground dwellers. Molds wither in sunlight or dry conditions, and magics such as sunburst or sunray will kill a patch immediately.

*Gray Mold*
This mold, which grows primarily on floors, has a fuzzy light gray to dark gray color. Often overlooked in subterranean caverns, the mold releases its spores when it is stepped on or attacked. It can create a cloud of spores every 6 rounds.

A cloud of gray spores is 30 feet deep by 15 feet wide and 15 feet high. Living creatures caught within the cloud suffer 1d6 points of damage and must make a saving throw vs. poison. Those who do not save have inhaled 1d6 spores – each causes 1 point of damage per round until either the creature is dead or a cure disease spell kills the spores. Those killed by gray mold spores become part of the mold, a man-sized creature increasing the size of a patch by 10 square feet. The spores do not harm non-living matter.

Gray mold is immune to weapons and to fire-based attacks. In addition, it has a natural magic resistance. Cold-based spells that pierce its resistance make the mold dormant for 1d8 turns, while ice storm, wall of ice, and similar spells (of 4th level or higher) kill the mold outright.

Originally appeared in Ruins of Undermountain II: The Deep Levels (1994).  This is the Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Two version.


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## freyar (Feb 25, 2011)

Hazard again, I guess, but it sure seems nasty.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 27, 2011)

freyar said:


> Hazard again, I guess, but it sure seems nasty.




Hmm, well AD&D Yellow Mold is nastier. It killed immediately if the victim failed their save vs poison. Grey Mold will probably take a few rounds to kill, giving time for a _cure disease_ or _keoghtum's ointment_ to be applied.

The Magic Resistance is higher than Yellow Mold, but not by much (35% vs 20%).

Hmm, does the MR apply to the spores too, and thereby opposes any _cure disease_ spell to cure the victim? I would think not, since I've never read that a Yellow Mold's spores resisted magic.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 27, 2011)

freyar said:


> Hazard again, I guess, but it sure seems nasty.




Oh, and to answer the first part. I agree it should be a Hazard.


----------



## Shade (Feb 28, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Hmm, does the MR apply to the spores too, and thereby opposes any _cure disease_ spell to cure the victim? I would think not, since I've never read that a Yellow Mold's spores resisted magic.




Yeah, probably not.



Cleon said:


> Oh, and to answer the first part. I agree it should be a Hazard.




Ditto that.


----------



## freyar (Mar 4, 2011)

Well, then, swap hp damage for Con like the Yellow Mold?


----------



## Cleon (Mar 7, 2011)

freyar said:


> Well, then, swap hp damage for Con like the Yellow Mold?




That makes sense to me, just with lower Con damage.


----------



## Shade (Mar 8, 2011)

That sounds reasonable to me too.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 8, 2011)

Shade said:


> That sounds reasonable to me too.




Maybe we should use a disease-like mechanism that does a low Con damage per hour? The AD&D Grey Mold sapped its victim's health till they die or are cured.


----------



## freyar (Mar 11, 2011)

This is why Pathfinder afflictions are so nice!  

Why not just make it a disease that has some amount of Con damage per day, then?  Maybe a very short incubation period, though?


----------



## Cleon (Mar 12, 2011)

freyar said:


> This is why Pathfinder afflictions are so nice!
> 
> Why not just make it a disease that has some amount of Con damage per day, then?  Maybe a very short incubation period, though?




That'd be OK, I guess.


----------



## Shade (Mar 15, 2011)

freyar said:


> Why not just make it a disease that has some amount of Con damage per day, then?  Maybe a very short incubation period, though?




That works for me as well.  How short an incubation period are you thinking?


----------



## freyar (Mar 16, 2011)

How about 1 round?

Gray Mold Spores (Ex): disease - inhalation, Fort DC X, incubation period 1 round; damage 1d6? Con. 

Unlike normal diseases, gray mold spores continue until the victim reaches Constitution 0 (and dies) or is cured by a remove disease spell (or similar magical effect) or a DC X Heal check.


That Heal check is negotiable, but I think it should be an option since this doesn't seem Su.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 18, 2011)

freyar said:


> How about 1 round?
> 
> Gray Mold Spores (Ex): disease - inhalation, Fort DC X, incubation period 1 round; damage 1d6? Con.




The damage is fine, but I'd prefer a bit longer incubation. Maybe a minute or ten minutes?



freyar said:


> Unlike normal diseases, gray mold spores continue until the victim reaches Constitution 0 (and dies) or is cured by a remove disease spell (or similar magical effect) or a DC X Heal check.
> 
> That Heal check is negotiable, but I think it should be an option since this doesn't seem Su.




Wasn't the infestation cured by exposure to sunlight?


----------



## freyar (Mar 21, 2011)

1 minute incubation works for me.

The mold hazard itself is destroyed by sunlight (or appropriate spells), but not the spore infestation.


----------



## Shade (Mar 22, 2011)

Bringing it all together...

Gray Mold (CR x): If disturbed, a patch of this mold bursts forth with a cloud of diseased spores. All within 10 feet of the mold must make a Fortitude save (DC x) or be exposed to the disease below. Gray mold has spell resistance x.  Cold effects that bypass its spell resistance destroys gray mold, and sunlight renders it dormant.

Gray Mold Spores (Ex): disease - inhalation, Fort DC X, incubation period 1 minute; damage 1d6 Con. 

Unlike normal diseases, gray mold spores continue until the victim reaches Constitution 0 (and dies) or is cured by a remove disease spell (or similar magical effect) or a DC X Heal check.

Originally appeared in Ruins of Undermountain II: The Deep Levels (1994).


----------



## freyar (Mar 22, 2011)

Hmm, we have "Molds wither in sunlight or dry conditions, and magics such as sunburst or sunray will kill a patch immediately." and "Gray mold is immune to weapons and to fire-based attacks. In addition, it has a natural magic resistance. Cold-based spells that pierce its resistance make the mold dormant for 1d8 turns, while ice storm, wall of ice, and similar spells (of 4th level or higher) kill the mold outright."

I wouldn't mind adding back the light-based spells that kill it and that lower level cold spells only make it dormant.  What do you guys think?

How do we want to set the numbers?


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## Shade (Mar 24, 2011)

The spell level approach feels a bit archaic, but I wouldn't mind some mechanic for certain light spells destroying it.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 25, 2011)

freyar said:


> Hmm, we have "Molds wither in sunlight or dry conditions, and magics such as sunburst or sunray will kill a patch immediately." and "Gray mold is immune to weapons and to fire-based attacks. In addition, it has a natural magic resistance. Cold-based spells that pierce its resistance make the mold dormant for 1d8 turns, while ice storm, wall of ice, and similar spells (of 4th level or higher) kill the mold outright."
> 
> I wouldn't mind adding back the light-based spells that kill it and that lower level cold spells only make it dormant.  What do you guys think?
> 
> How do we want to set the numbers?




Maybe just give it vulnerability to light and cold effects, then add that the mold takes, say, 1 damage per minute when within a _light_ spell or indirect sunlight and 1 damage per round when within direct sunlight or _continual flame _spell does X damage per round, and it goes dormant for 1d8 minutes whenever a cold spell penetrates its spell resistance.

If we give it vulnerability to cold and light damage I don't think we need add any special rules for a _sunburst_ or _wall of ice_ spell killing it - the standard damage of those spells should be enough.

We just need to decide on how many hit points it has, I'd think something like 5-15 hit points per 5 ft. "patch".


----------



## freyar (Mar 25, 2011)

Make it 5 hp per 5 ft square.  That works for me.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 25, 2011)

freyar said:


> Make it 5 hp per 5 ft square.  That works for me.




Yes, I prefer something at the lower end of the hit point range, too.


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## Shade (Apr 5, 2011)

I'm content with that.


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## Cleon (Apr 7, 2011)

Putting it together, we've got something like this:
*
Gray Mold (CR X)*
If disturbed, a patch of this mold bursts forth with a  cloud of diseased spores. All within 10 feet of the mold must make a  Fortitude save (DC Y) or be exposed to the disease below.

A patch of gray mold has 5 hit points,  spell resistance Z and vulnerability to light and cold effects.  The mold goes dormant for 1d8 minutes if a cold attack penetrates its  spell resistance. It also goes dormant while exposed to direct sunlight. It takes  1 point of damage per minute when within a _light_ spell or indirect sunlight, and 1 point of damage per round when when within direct sunlight or _continual flame._

_ Gray Mold Spores (Ex):_ disease - inhalation, Fort DC X, incubation period 1 minute; damage 1d6 Con. 

Unlike normal diseases, gray mold spores continue until the victim  reaches Constitution 0 (and dies) or is cured by a remove disease spell  (or similar magical effect) or a DC X Heal check. A patch of gray mold will grow from the corpse of a creature killed by gray mold spores.


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2011)

DC 15 like yellow mold?

CR 6 or 7?  While yellow mold is deadlier 1 minute later, gray mold is an ongoing disease.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 8, 2011)

Shade said:


> DC 15 like yellow mold?
> 
> CR 6 or 7?  While yellow mold is deadlier 1 minute later, gray mold is an ongoing disease.




DC 15 is fine, but that CR seems too high.

For comparison, the SRD Mummy is CR5 and its Mummy Rot is _*far*_ nastier and harder to get rid of. Simple sunlight or _continual flame_ can get rid of this mold. A _lesser restoration_ is enough to delay the progress of the disease until it can be cured.

Challenge Rating 4, like Green Slime?


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## Shade (Apr 8, 2011)

OK, I'm convinced.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 9, 2011)

Shade said:


> OK, I'm convinced.




Victory is mine, yet again!

Today the Plant Conversions, tomorrow the World!!

Insert maniacal laughter.

*Ahem*

We need to set a spell resistance.


----------



## Shade (Apr 11, 2011)

cleon said:


> we need to set a spell resistance.




14?


----------



## Cleon (Apr 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> 14?




The original was 35%, which is pretty good for a low-level monster. 35% failure at CL 11 is SR19.

So I'd like it at least a _little_ higher, maybe 15-16.


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## freyar (Apr 12, 2011)

I'd go for SR 16.  That sounds good.


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## Cleon (Apr 13, 2011)

freyar said:


> I'd go for SR 16.  That sounds good.




Works for me.


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## Shade (Apr 13, 2011)

Ditto here.  Summarizing...

Gray Mold (CR 4)
If disturbed, a patch of this mold bursts forth with a cloud of diseased spores. All within 10 feet of the mold must make a DC 15 Fortitude save or be exposed to the disease below.

A patch of gray mold has 5 hit points, spell resistance 16 and vulnerability to light and cold effects. The mold goes dormant for 1d8 minutes if a cold attack penetrates its spell resistance. It also goes dormant while exposed to direct sunlight. It takes 1 point of damage per minute when within a light spell or indirect sunlight, and 1 point of damage per round when when within direct sunlight or continual flame.

Gray Mold Spores (Ex): disease - inhalation, Fort DC 15, incubation period 1 minute; damage 1d6 Con. 

Unlike normal diseases, gray mold spores continue until the victim reaches Constitution 0 (and dies) or is cured by a remove disease spell (or similar magical effect) or a DC 15 Heal check. A patch of gray mold will grow from the corpse of a creature killed by gray mold spores.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 14, 2011)

Shade said:


> Ditto here.  Summarizing...
> 
> Gray Mold (CR 4)
> If disturbed, a patch of this mold bursts forth with a cloud of diseased spores. All within 10 feet of the mold must make a DC 15 Fortitude save or be exposed to the disease below.
> ...




Looks fine. Should we add a bit of flavour? "Gray mold is a dangerous subterranean fungus which primarily grows on the floors of dungeons and caves."

The original text says it's "Often overlooked in subterranean caverns", presumably because of its gray colour. This suggests a Spot DC. "The mold has a fuzzy light gray to dark gray color that matches the stone background of subterranean caverns. A DC X Spot check or Knowledge (dungeoneering) check is required to notice gray mold in such places."

The "dungeons and caves" bit might be surplus to requirements. Make the Spot DC20 since it's "often" overlooked?

Putting it together...
*
Gray Mold (CR 4)*
Gray mold is a dangerous subterranean fungus which primarily grows on the floors of dungeons and caves. The mold has a fuzzy light gray to dark gray color that matches the  stone background of subterranean caverns. A DC *20* Spot check or Knowledge  (dungeoneering) check is required to notice gray mold in such places. If disturbed, a patch of this mold bursts forth with a cloud of diseased  spores. All within 10 feet of the mold must make a DC 15 Fortitude save  or be exposed to the disease below.

A patch of gray mold has 5 hit points, spell resistance 16 and  vulnerability to light and cold effects. The mold goes dormant for 1d8  minutes if a cold attack penetrates its spell resistance. It also goes  dormant while exposed to direct sunlight. It takes 1 point of damage per  minute when within a light spell or indirect sunlight, and 1 point of  damage per round when when within direct sunlight or continual flame.

Gray Mold Spores (Ex): disease - inhalation, Fort DC 15, incubation period 1 minute; damage 1d6 Con. 

Unlike normal diseases, gray mold spores continue until the victim  reaches Constitution 0 (and dies) or is cured by a remove disease spell  (or similar magical effect) or a DC 15 Heal check. A patch of gray mold  will grow from the corpse of a creature killed by gray mold spores.


----------



## Shade (Apr 14, 2011)

Looks good to me!  Added to Homebrews.  Are we ready to move on to the next?


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## freyar (Apr 15, 2011)

Let's move on, since this one seems done.


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## Shade (Apr 15, 2011)

*Death Mold *
Climate/Terrain: Subterranean 
Frequency: Very rare 
Organization: Patch 
Activity Cycle: Any 
Diet: Carnivorous 
Intelligence: Animal (1) 
Treasure: Nil 
Alignment: Neutral 
No. Appearing: 1-3 patches 
Armor Class: 9 
Movement: 3 
Hit Dice: n/a 
THAC0: n/a 
No. of Attacks: 1 
Damage/Attack: 1d8 
Special Attacks: Spores, paralysis 
Special Defenses: See below 
Magic Resistance: Nil 
Size: S to L 
Morale:  n/a 
XP Value: 175 

Death mold appears as a large mold patch colored in swirls and spots of green, gray, and brown. Those who see it often confuse it with other types of mold. Death mold can move, slowly inching its way along cavern floors and walls in search of food. It often lurks on ceilings, waiting to release its cloud of spores on victims below.

When death mold touches a victim, it releases a cloud of spores that is 40 feet deep by 60 feet long by 60 feet wide, centered on the point of contact. This semi-intelligent mold can emit the cloud of its own volition, and can release a spore cloud once a turn, up to six times a day. Those within the cloud suffer 2d8 points of damage. In addition, those within the cloud must make a successful saving throw vs. poison or fall down helplessly, coughing and wheezing for the next 1d4 rounds. Once victims are down, the death mold moves toward them or drops on them from its ceiling perch. Prey engulfed by the mold takes 1d8 points of poison damage each round the mold remains in contact.

Death mold is immune to all wizard spells. Priestly cure wound spells stun the mold for the number of rounds equal to the number of hit points that would have been healed. Slow poison causes the mold to lie dormant for 1 full turn. A neutralize poison or heal spell instantly kills the mold.

Originally appeared in Ruins of Undermountain II: The Deep Levels (1994).  This is the Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Two version.


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## Cleon (Apr 15, 2011)

Shade said:


> Looks good to me!  Added to Homebrews.  Are we ready to move on to the next?




Hold on, it's got an excess when in the second paragraph "when when within direct sunlight".

I think we can go on once that's fixed.

Onwards to the Death!


----------



## Cleon (Apr 15, 2011)

Shade said:


> *Death Mold *




Definitely a monster rather than a hazard, being intelligent and mobile.

It's listed as "Intelligence: Animal", but the combat text says it's "semi-intelligent" - not very consistent, eh.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 15, 2011)

Shade said:


> Looks good to me!  Added to Homebrews.  Are we ready to move on to the next?




Going back to the Gray Mold, it's got "If disturbed, a patch of this mold bursts forth with a cloud of diseased spores."

Wouldn't that work better with "disease spores" or "disease-bearing spores"? The spores cause gray mold sickness, they are not themselves sickly.


----------



## Shade (Apr 15, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Hold on, it's got an excess when in the second paragraph "when when within direct sunlight".






Cleon said:


> Going back to the Gray Mold, it's got "If disturbed, a patch of this mold bursts forth with a cloud of diseased spores."
> 
> Wouldn't that work better with "disease spores" or "disease-bearing spores"? The spores cause gray mold sickness, they are not themselves sickly.




Fixed.



Cleon said:


> Definitely a monster rather than a hazard, being intelligent and mobile.
> 
> It's listed as "Intelligence: Animal", but the combat text says it's "semi-intelligent" - not very consistent, eh.




I'd say we peg 'em at Int 2.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> Fixed.
> 
> I'd say we peg 'em at Int 2.




That's what I was thinking.

So, I'm guessing we'll make these a Plant, although Ooze might fit too.

They have a "N/A" for Hit Dice, so we'd need to decide what to do about that. I'd give them Hit Dice (somewhere about 6-10 HD methinks), plus a wide immunity to weapons and attacks.

Hmm, an easy way to give a death mold immunity to weapons is make it a Swarm of Fine-sized Plants.

That could explain the two intelligence scores too! The individual plants are Int 1, but they have a Communal Intelligence of 2-4.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 16, 2011)

Regarding the Hit Dice question, the original monster had a THAC0 of 11, which matches up to 9-10 Hit Dice, which seems about right.


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Apr 16, 2011)

We could also look at the mosses; it would probably be similar to those.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 17, 2011)

GrayLinnorm said:


> We could also look at the mosses; it would probably be similar to those.




Do you have any specific examples in mind?


----------



## freyar (Apr 18, 2011)

Mold wyrms and Mossmutter are Plants, so let's stick with Plant. 

As for making them a swarm, where does it say they are immune to weapons?  I see immune to arcane spells, but not weapons.


----------



## Shade (Apr 18, 2011)

I agree with plant.  Obliviax (memory moss) and vampire moss are also plants.

I'm not seeing a need for swarm, either.

Agreed with 9-10 HD.


----------



## freyar (Apr 19, 2011)

Ok, 9HD plant.  

Magic immunity of the golem type, I guess.  Engulf or something similar, and spores like dust of sneezing and choking?


----------



## Shade (Apr 19, 2011)

Size is listed as "S to L".  We can start 'em Small, and allow advancement to Large.

Upsizing an obliviax (D) to Small yields...

Str 11, Dex 11, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 14

We decide upthread on Int 2.  The other mental scores should probably be reigned in a bit as well...

Str 11, Dex 11, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 10?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 21, 2011)

We might want to boost those physical ability scores a bit, particularly Con, if we're giving it 9 HD. Do we want to give it any actual attacks, or just the poisonous spores?


----------



## Cleon (Apr 21, 2011)

freyar said:


> As for making them a swarm, where does it say they are immune to weapons?  I see immune to arcane spells, but not weapons.




I was thrown off by confusing them with Deep Mold, which "is immune to all weapon attacks".


----------



## Cleon (Apr 21, 2011)

demiurge1138 said:


> We might want to boost those physical ability scores a bit, particularly Con, if we're giving it 9 HD. Do we want to give it any actual attacks, or just the poisonous spores?




Yup, I'd increase some of those stats, especially Constitution.

I'd give it some kind of corrosive poison touch attack. Not much point the original having a THAC0 if it never needed to make to hit rolls.

Also, Small seems distinctly unimpressive, so I'd give serious consideration to making it Medium-sized.


----------



## Shade (Apr 22, 2011)

I can go for Medium, higher Con, and the usual ooze acid attack.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 23, 2011)

Shade said:


> I can go for Medium, higher Con, and the usual ooze acid attack.




A gray ooze is Medium-sized and Con 21 in 3E, should we use that?


----------



## Shade (Apr 25, 2011)

Cleon said:


> A gray ooze is Medium-sized and Con 21 in 3E, should we use that?




Sure!


----------



## freyar (Apr 26, 2011)

On the other hand, didn't we make these plants?  A Large 8HD shambling mound is only Con 17, so maybe we could compromise at Con 19.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 26, 2011)

freyar said:


> On the other hand, didn't we make these plants?  A Large 8HD shambling mound is only Con 17, so maybe we could compromise at Con 19.




Yes it's a Plant.

 I'd toyed with the idea of an intermediary Constitution, so am fine with Con 19.


----------



## Shade (Apr 26, 2011)

Added to Homebrews.


----------



## freyar (Apr 27, 2011)

Rip off the standard Immunity to Magic like so?  Check the italicized bits!

Immunity to Magic (Ex): A death mold is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

Cure Wounds spells stun a death mold for 1 round per (_hp the spell would have healed/spell level ???_).

A delay poison spell _dazes_? a death mold for _X_ rounds.

A neutralize poison or heal spell kills a death mold instantly (_on a failed Fortitude save?_).


----------



## Shade (Apr 28, 2011)

Looks good, including the italicized bits.


----------



## freyar (Apr 28, 2011)

What numbers do you prefer?  I think the stunning on cure wounds seeems more "3.X" at 1 round per spell level, but I'm not set on it.  Don't know about the duration for dazing, either.


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## Shade (Apr 28, 2011)

freyar said:


> What numbers do you prefer?  I think the stunning on cure wounds seeems more "3.X" at 1 round per spell level, but I'm not set on it.  Don't know about the duration for dazing, either.




I like the 1 round/spell level.  For the dazing, a round is probably sufficient.


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## freyar (Apr 28, 2011)

How about 2 rounds, since the original was for turns?  That would give us

Immunity to Magic (Ex): A death mold is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

Cure Wounds spells stun a death mold for 1 round per spell level.

A delay poison spell dazes a death mold for 2 rounds.

A neutralize poison or heal spell kills a death mold instantly on a failed Fortitude save.


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## Shade (Apr 28, 2011)

Works for me.


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## Cleon (May 2, 2011)

freyar said:


> How about 2 rounds, since the original was for turns?  That would give us
> 
> Immunity to Magic (Ex): A death mold is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.
> 
> ...




Hmm, I wouldn't mind some randomness in the stun duration, and I would definitely like there to be a saving throw of some sort.

Perhaps:

Cure wounds spells stun a death mold for 1d2 rounds per spell level (or slowed on a successful Fort save).

A _delay poison_ spell dazes a death mold for 1d10 rounds (or slowed on a successful Fort save).


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## freyar (May 3, 2011)

That's a fine trade off.


----------



## Shade (May 5, 2011)

Updated.


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## freyar (May 5, 2011)

Ok, the original monster has an attack, presumably slam plus acid.  They also read like they have engulf or swallow whole.  And we need to work on the poison/spores, which sound like Con damage (or hp) plus an effect like dust of sneezing and choking.


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## Shade (May 10, 2011)

1d6 slam plus 1d6 acid, like the similarly-sized gray ooze?

Engulf seems a better fit than swallow whole.

I agree with Con damage plus a dust of sneezing and choking effect.


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## freyar (May 10, 2011)

Agreed on the slam and acid damage.

Is the acid damage for engulf automatically the same as for the slam?  The gelatinous cube doesn't actually say, but I'd assume so.

And how about this?
Caustic Spores (Ex): A death mold can release a cloud of caustic spores up to 6 times daily.  Anyone within 30? ft of the death mold must make a DC X Fortitude save or take 2d6?? Con damage.  Regardless of the saving throw's result, any creature in range is irritated by the spores and falls into a fit of coughing, choking, and sneezing, leaving them stunned for 2d4? rounds.  The save DC is Constitution-based.

I fiddled with the damage and stun duration, so see what you like.  The original spread is also bigger, so I could see going up to 40 ft.  Also, it wasn't clear to me from the original monster if touching the death mold also sets off spores (or if that was just when they choose to release the spores), so I left that bit out.


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## Shade (May 12, 2011)

Updated.  I like your variables, but I left the question marks in until others weigh in.

Skills: 12 ranks
It has blindsight, so Listen and Spot probably aren't that important.

Feats: 4
It likes to lurk in ambush, so maybe Stealthy?  Ability Focus (engulf)?


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## freyar (May 12, 2011)

6 ranks in Hide and Move Silently, then?

Those 2 feats plus Iron Will and Weapon Focus (slam)?


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## Shade (May 13, 2011)

Sounds good.

Updated.

That really just leaves advancement, CR, and diameter/weight.


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## freyar (May 13, 2011)

How on earth are a tendriculos and shambling mound the same CR, by the way?

I have to go with CR 7 (at least), given how nasty the spores could be potentially.

Follow tendriculos advancement (down 2 sizes)? 10–16 HD (Medium); 17–27 HD (Large)
Or add some Huge: 28-40 HD (Huge)?

6 ft diameter, 1600 lb?


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## Shade (May 13, 2011)

Sure, let's add some Huge.  

Updated.


----------



## freyar (May 16, 2011)

Looks done mod nits.


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## Cleon (May 18, 2011)

freyar said:


> Looks done mod nits.




The original caustic spores only causes incapacitation is a saving throw was failed and lasted for 1d4 rounds. I prefer both rather than the overpowered _dust of sneezing and choking_ approach, i.e.:

*Caustic Spores (Ex):* A death mold can release a cloud of caustic spores  up to 6 times daily. Anyone within 30 feet of the death mold must make a  DC 18 Fortitude save or take 2d6 points of Constitution damage and fall into a fit of coughing, choking, and  sneezing which stuns them for 1d4 rounds. A succesful saving throw halves the damage and negates the stunning. The save DC is  Constitution-based.

That should trim the CR down to size.

Oh, and certainly Advance To HUGE!


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## freyar (May 19, 2011)

Fair enough; the effects were negotiable all along.


----------



## Shade (May 19, 2011)

Updated.  Finito?


----------



## freyar (May 20, 2011)

How 'bout this?  I'm happy if it's done.


----------



## Cleon (May 21, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Finito?




It's done, except it should be "successful" in Caustic Spores.


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## Shade (May 31, 2011)

Fixed.

Here's the next one...

*Deep Mold *
Climate/Terrain: Subterranean 
Frequency: Uncommon 
Organization: Patch 
Activity Cycle: Any 
Diet: Carnivorous 
Intelligence: Non- (0) 
Treasure: Nil 
Alignment: Neutral 
No. Appearing: 1 patch 
Armor Class: 9 
Movement: 0 
Hit Dice: n/a 
THAC0: n/a 
No. of Attacks: 1 
Damage/Attack: Special 
Special Attacks: Spores, Strength loss 
Special Defenses: See below 
Magic Resistance: 20% 
Size: S to L 
Morale: n/a 
XP Value: 35 

These deadly molds are spore-producing fungi that grow in decaying organic materials. Like all molds, these have a fuzzy, harmless appearance. However, they can be deadly if disturbed, and they are hard to get rid of.

A typical patch of mold covers from 30 to 60 square feet. Patches can be found on walls, ceilings, and floors, and are eaten by a variety of underground dwellers. Molds wither in sunlight or dry conditions, and magics such as sunburst or sunray will kill a patch immediately.

Deep Mold

More plentiful than gray mold and death mold, deep mold appears in various shades of green and blue. Its pleasing appearance, coupled with its inviting fragrance, often lures subterranean animals in for the kill.

If anything touches the mold, whether a curious finger or a weapon, a spore cloud is released: 20 feet wide, 20 feet high, and 30 feet deep, centered on the point of contact. Those caught within the cloud must make a successful saving throw vs. paralyzation or suffer 1d10 points of damage and lose 1 point of Strength for 1d10 rounds; those who are successful suffer only half damage and don’t lose Strength. Each patch of deep mold can release three spore clouds a day.

Deep mold is immune to all weapon attacks and has a natural magic resistance. Magical spells that overcome the mold’s resistance have several effects. Cold-based spells stun the mold for 3d6 rounds; during this time, no spores can be released. Heat-based spells stun the mold for 4d4 rounds. Acid (such as Melf’s acid arrow) kills the mold at the rate of 10 square feet per vial (2d4 damage). A cure disease spell kills an entire patch without triggering the spores.

A creature infected by deep mold spores (an unsuccessful saving throw) takes an additional 1d10 points of damage per day until dead. A cure disease spell can excise the spore infection. Otherwise, a day of complete bed rest combined with continuous exposure to bright sunlight prevents spore damage for that day and allows natural healing to occur.

Originally appeared in Ruins of Undermountain II: The Deep Levels (1994).  This is the Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Two version.


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## Cleon (May 31, 2011)

Shade said:


> *Deep Mold *




This looks a pretty straightforward hazard.


----------



## Shade (Jun 1, 2011)

Cleon said:


> This looks a pretty straightforward hazard.




Agreed.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 3, 2011)

Shade said:


> Agreed.




How's this:

*Deep Mold (CR 3)*
Deep mold is a carnivorous subterranean fungus. It grows in patches of green and blue fuzz which emit a sweet smell. Its inviting appearance and fragrance are used to lure subterranean animals. A DC 15 Knowledge (dungeoneering) check will identify a deep mold as being dangerous. If disturbed, a patch of deep mold releases a 10 foot radius burst of disease-bearing spores. All within 10 feet of the mold must make a DC 15 Fortitude save or be exposed to the disease below.

A patch of deep mold has 5 hit points, spell resistance 13 and vulnerability to acid effects. The mold goes dormant for 3d6 minutes if a fire or cold attack penetrates its spell resistance.

_Deep __Mold Spores (Ex): _disease - inhalation, Fort DC 15, incubation period 1 minute; damage 1d3 Strength.

If the deep mold spores reduce victim's Strength to 0 the victim will die. Unlike normal diseases, deep mold spores continue until the victim reaches Constitution 0 (and dies) or is cured by a _remove disease _spell (or similar magical effect), a DC 15 Heal check, or exposure to sunlight. Sunlight puts deep mold spores in stasis. A creature will not suffer damage from a deep mold spore infection on days they spend at least 8 hours in sunlight, and will recover from the disease if they succeed at two DC 15 Fortitude saving throws on two successive days in the sunlight. A patch of deep mold will grow from the corpse of a creature killed by deep mold spores.

(Hmm, that looks pretty good to me)


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## freyar (Jun 6, 2011)

Works here.


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## Cleon (Jun 8, 2011)

freyar said:


> Works here.




Any suggestions, or is it OK as is?


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## Mortis (Jun 8, 2011)

Slight query



Cleon said:


> A patch of deep mold has 5 hit points, spell resistance 13 and vulnerability to acid effects. The mold goes dormant for 3d6 minutes if a fire or cold attack penetrates its spell resistance.




What about normal cold/fire? Such as a flaming torch. Obviously SR won't apply.

Regards
Mortis


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## Cleon (Jun 9, 2011)

Mortis said:


> Slight query
> 
> What about normal cold/fire? Such as a flaming torch. Obviously SR won't apply.
> 
> ...




Good point. Since the original went dormant when affected by a fire or cold spell, that suggests either:

The mold goes dormant for 3d6 minutes if a magical fire or cold attack penetrates its spell resistance.

_*OR*_

The mold goes dormant for 3d6 minutes if a spell with the fire or cold descriptor penetrates its spell resistance.


----------



## lordxaviar (Jun 10, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Good point. Since the original went dormant when affected by a fire or cold spell, that suggests either:
> 
> The mold goes dormant for 3d6 minutes if a magical fire or cold attack penetrates its spell resistance.
> 
> ...




just a quick one... cant find my copy of Und at the moment. (edit - its not in underdark... where did I see this, cant remember I know its out there.).. probably dumb ques..

why does it have SR?


----------



## Cleon (Jun 10, 2011)

lordxaviar said:


> just a quick one... cant find my copy of Und at the moment. (edit - its not in underdark... where did I see this, cant remember I know its out there.).. probably dumb ques..
> 
> why does it have SR?




"Magic Resistance: 20%"


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Good point. Since the original went dormant when affected by a fire or cold spell, that suggests either:
> 
> The mold goes dormant for 3d6 minutes if a magical fire or cold attack penetrates its spell resistance.
> 
> ...




I slightly favor the latter.


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## lordxaviar (Jun 11, 2011)

agree with shade...  hey where is this from....  oh


duh

originally appeared in Ruins of Undermountain II: The Deep Levels (1994). This is the Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Two version.


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## Cleon (Jun 12, 2011)

lordxaviar said:


> agree with shade...  hey where is this from....  oh
> 
> 
> duh
> ...




Works for me.

Revising...

*Deep Mold (CR 3)*
Deep mold is a carnivorous subterranean fungus. It grows in patches of  green and blue fuzz which emit a sweet smell. Its inviting appearance  and fragrance are used to lure subterranean animals. A DC 15 Knowledge  (dungeoneering) check will identify a deep mold as being dangerous. If  disturbed, a patch of deep mold releases a 10 foot radius burst of  disease-bearing spores. All within 10 feet of the mold must make a DC 15  Fortitude save or be exposed to the disease below.

A patch of deep mold has 5 hit points, spell resistance 13 and  vulnerability to acid effects. The mold goes dormant for 3d6 minutes if a spell with the fire or cold descriptor penetrates its spell resistance.

_Deep __Mold Spores (Ex): _disease - inhalation, Fort DC 15, incubation period 1 minute; damage 1d3 Strength.

If the deep mold spores reduce victim's Strength to 0 the victim will  die. Unlike normal diseases, deep mold spores continue until the victim  reaches Constitution 0 (and dies) or is cured by a _remove disease _spell  (or similar magical effect), a DC 15 Heal check, or exposure to  sunlight. Sunlight puts deep mold spores in stasis. A creature will not  suffer damage from a deep mold spore infection on days they spend at  least 8 hours in sunlight, and will recover from the disease if they  succeed at two DC 15 Fortitude saving throws on two successive days in  the sunlight. A patch of deep mold will grow from the corpse of a  creature killed by deep mold spores.


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## freyar (Jun 13, 2011)

I'm pretty happy with that.


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## Shade (Jun 13, 2011)

Looks great!  Added to Homebrews.


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## lordxaviar (Jun 13, 2011)

Shade said:


> Looks great!  Added to Homebrews.




good deal... whats next


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## Cleon (Jun 13, 2011)

Good!

So what villainous vegetable do we have to deal with next?


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## Shade (Jun 14, 2011)

*Purple Lichen:*  AC 10; MV 0; HD 4; hp 30; THAC0 nil; #AT 0; Dmg 0; SA drain PSPs; SD immune to weapons; SW vulnerable to light; SZ L; ML 0; Int non (0); ALL N; XP 270; New monster.

This room is completely dark, and the walls are covered with purple lichen, a parasitic fungus developed by the ulitharid as a weapon to infect and destroy elder brains.  The licken acts as a psychic sink, draining psionic points at the rate of 3d10 PSPs per round from any psionic creature within 10 feet.  Every 10 points it drains causes it to grow 1 square foot.  The lichen is susceptible to light and is rendered dormant when exposed to light or continual light spells.  It dies if exposed to daylight for 1 round.  It must be fed at least 1 PSP every day, or it dies.  It is immune to weapon attacks but is affected normally by spells.

Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #33 (1992).


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## Cleon (Jun 15, 2011)

Shade said:


> *Purple Lichen:*  AC 10; MV 0; HD 4; hp 30; THAC0 nil; #AT 0; Dmg 0; SA drain PSPs; SD immune to weapons; SW vulnerable to light; SZ L; ML 0; Int non (0); ALL N; XP 270; New monster.




Looks like a hazard to me.


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Looks like a hazard to me.




Yep.  Not many psionic ones, though, which is nice.


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2011)

I thought ulitharids were super-illlithids who would like elder brains.  Huh.

Base this on something like a memory moss and our new friend the psionic leech?


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## Cleon (Jun 17, 2011)

Shade said:


> Yep.  Not many psionic ones, though, which is nice.




You know, the immunity to magic and L size makes me imagine an immobile swarm of Fine- or Diminutive-sized Psionic Plants.

Still, I think we'd better just do them as a hazard.


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2011)

freyar said:


> I thought ulitharids were super-illlithids who would like elder brains.  Huh.




They're a conniving, treacherous lot.  



freyar said:


> Base this on something like a memory moss and our new friend the psionic leech?




Sure!



Cleon said:


> You know, the immunity to magic and L size makes me imagine an immobile swarm of Fine- or Diminutive-sized Psionic Plants.
> 
> Still, I think we'd better just do them as a hazard.




I'll support either approach.


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2011)

You mean immunity to weapons?

Personally, if it's an immobile swarm, I think that counts as a hazard.


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## Cleon (Jun 18, 2011)

freyar said:


> You mean immunity to weapons?
> 
> Personally, if it's an immobile swarm, I think that counts as a hazard.




Oh, I still think it should be a hazard. I'm just now trying to figure out how to make an immobile swarm of Diminutive Psionic Plants into an effective/interesting monster...

Probably it would psychically dominates creatures to be its slaves and use _dimension door_ or _probability travel_ to flit from place to place...

Or it just grows on Huge monsters and gets them to carry it about...

Anyhow, getting back to the Purple Moss.

Do we keep the 3d10 PPPs drained? Does the attack allow a saving throw, and if so what DC? Presumably it'll by a Will save.


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## freyar (Jun 19, 2011)

3d10 sounds like quite a lot; is there a rough "exchange rate" between 2e and 3.5e psionic power points?

The save DC is going to have to be high for this thing to affect an elder brain.  Maybe it shouldn't allow a save.


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## Cleon (Jun 19, 2011)

freyar said:


> 3d10 sounds like quite a lot; is there a rough "exchange rate" between 2e and 3.5e psionic power points?
> 
> The save DC is going to have to be high for this thing to affect an elder brain.  Maybe it shouldn't allow a save.




Since they "infect" Elder Brains I was guessing they carried some kind of anti-disembodied-brain disease, and the PPP drain was merely some secondary ability of theirs.

Besides, I favour making it half PPP damage on a save, so it will still have an effect.

Plus, its PPP drain could be extra-effective (double damage and hefty racial bonus to DC) against Elder Brains.


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## freyar (Jun 24, 2011)

Hmm, I kind of fancy Will save for half with no bother about a racial bonus vs elder brains.  However, some flavor text about how they grow as a disease upon exposed brain matter would be good.


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## Cleon (Jun 24, 2011)

freyar said:


> Hmm, I kind of fancy Will save for half with no bother about a racial bonus vs elder brains.  However, some flavor text about how they grow as a disease upon exposed brain matter would be good.




That would be alright by me.


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## Shade (Jun 24, 2011)

Cleon said:


> That would be alright by me.




Same here.


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## Cleon (Jun 24, 2011)

Shade said:


> Same here.




So, we need to decide a DC and how much PP it drains.

How about deciding on a target CR to give us something to aim for as to how tough/nasty they are?


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## freyar (Jun 25, 2011)

Well, they were originally 4HD.  So how about CR 4 or 5?


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## Cleon (Jun 26, 2011)

freyar said:


> Well, they were originally 4HD.  So how about CR 4 or 5?




I'd be OK with that, although it's a bit low for something that supposedly threatens an Elder Brain. We could come up with some lovely exception-based mechanisms to compensate though.

You know how much Shade likes them.


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## freyar (Jun 26, 2011)

As I suggested upthread, I'd favor flavor text talking about the effect on elder brains.  If you really want mechanics, what about some disease with a high Fort DC that only infects brain matter?


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## Cleon (Jun 27, 2011)

freyar said:


> As I suggested upthread, I'd favor flavor text talking about the effect on elder brains.  If you really want mechanics, what about some disease with a high Fort DC that only infects brain matter?




Well I suppose I could accept that, it's not like the PCs are *very *likely to be Elder Brains.


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## freyar (Jun 27, 2011)

Do elder brains have a level adjustment?  If I remember, I might just have to check that tonight.


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## Cleon (Jun 28, 2011)

freyar said:


> Do elder brains have a level adjustment?  If I remember, I might just have to check that tonight.




I can't recall offhand, but I suspect not. 

Besides, if you had an Elder Brain PC you'd need someone to carry it about in a really big jar...


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## freyar (Jun 28, 2011)

No need for the jar, they have a 30 ft fly speed.  They don't actually have an LA line in their stat block, though the other monsters in Lords of Madness do.  I suspect it's supposed to be LA: -, though.

Anyway, shall we proceed?


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## Cleon (Jun 28, 2011)

freyar said:


> No need for the jar, they have a 30 ft fly speed.  They don't actually have an LA line in their stat block, though the other monsters in Lords of Madness do.  I suspect it's supposed to be LA: -, though.




Elder Brains were immobile in their AD&D incarnations, and I prefer them that way.


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## freyar (Jun 29, 2011)

I don't know, I find something appealing about a 10-ft-diameter levitating glowing brain.  

Here's a start:

Purple Lichen (CR 5?)
Purple lichen, technically a fungus rather than a lichen, is a psionic parasite that grows in thin layers on underground floors, walls and ceilings.  Any psionic creature within 10 feet of a patch of purple lichen must make a DC X Will save or lose Y power points.  For each Z points the lichen patch drains, it grows to fill an additional 5 ft square.  It is rumored that renegade mind flayers developed purple lichen to attack elder brains; some scholar speculate that purple lichen causes a horrific disease when placed in direct contact with brain matter.

A 5-ft square patch of purple lichen has 10? hit points but is immune to weapon damage.  Purple lichen is rendered dormant by exposure to any bright light, and it is killed instantly by exposure to natural daylight or a daylight spell.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 29, 2011)

freyar said:


> I don't know, I find something appealing about a 10-ft-diameter levitating glowing brain.




If I found that attractive I'd keep it to myself! 



freyar said:


> Here's a start:
> 
> Purple Lichen (CR 5?)
> Purple lichen, technically a fungus rather than a lichen, is a psionic parasite that grows in thin layers on underground floors, walls and ceilings.  Any psionic creature within 10 feet of a patch of purple lichen must make a DC X Will save or lose Y power points.  For each Z points the lichen patch drains, it grows to fill an additional 5 ft square.  It is rumored that renegade mind flayers developed purple lichen to attack elder brains; some scholar speculate that purple lichen causes a horrific disease when placed in direct contact with brain matter.
> ...




We'd settled on save for half damage.

I'd like to separate out the bit on their origin and add some mechanics for the disease. For the sake of simplicity (and nastiness) I'll say it works like mummy rot. Since the Dungeon article definitely says the lichen was created for that purpose, I'd fancy cutting the "rumoured".

I'm not sure I like the "technically a fungus rather than a lichen" bit. How about "parasitic fungoid lifeform", so it's _like_ a fungus while not actually being one?

The original entry gives the lichen 4 HD and 30 hit points. That's for a patch that covers the walls of an entire room, though, so I'm OK keeping the HP/square lower.

Revising...

*Purple Lichen (CR 5?)*
Purple lichen is a parasitic fungoid life form that feeds off psionic energy. It can live in any damp underground area frequented by psionic creatures. Purple lichen may grow on any nonhazardous surface (walls, floor or ceiling), and can grow underwater or floating on subterranean pools. Whenever a psionic creature ends its turn within 10 feet of a patch of purple  lichen the lichen will drain X psionic power points from them (DC Y Will save to halve this amount).  For each Z  points the lichen patch drains, it grows to fill an additional 5 ft  square. A 5-ft square patch of purple lichen has 10? hit points but is immune to  weapon damage.  Purple lichen is rendered dormant by exposure to any  bright light, and it is killed instantly by exposure to natural daylight  or a daylight spell.

It is rumored that renegade mind flayers developed purple  lichen to infect and destroy elder brains; some scholar speculate that purple lichen  causes a horrific disease when placed in direct contact with brain  matter. *[*Purple lichen causes a supernatural disease, called _purple rot_, that only affects psionic creatures with exposed brains that touch a patch of lichen. _Purple rot's_ effects are the same as mummy rot, except a victim infested with _purple rot_ will have filaments of purple lichen growing in their brain. This purple lichen infestation will drain power points from the victim and anyone else within 10 feet until the disease is cured.*]*


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## freyar (Jun 30, 2011)

Right, forgot about the save for half.  I think we'd have to boost the DC on the purple rot, though, since elder brains have +17 Fort saves.  That's one reason I wanted to leave the disease mechanics unspecified.


----------



## Shade (Jul 1, 2011)

Yep, the DC needs to be much higher.  I suppose it could have a higher DC vs. aberrations to make elder brains more likely to succumb.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 2, 2011)

Shade said:


> Yep, the DC needs to be much higher.  I suppose it could have a higher DC vs. aberrations to make elder brains more likely to succumb.




+10 DC vs Psionic Aberrations ought to cover it.


----------



## freyar (Jul 5, 2011)

Sure thing.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 5, 2011)

freyar said:


> Sure thing.




We've got to work out values for the X, Y and Zs but we're about there.

Revising...

*Purple Lichen (CR 5?)*
Purple lichen is a parasitic fungoid life form that feeds off psionic  energy. It can live in any damp underground area frequented by psionic  creatures. Purple lichen may grow on any nonhazardous surface (walls,  floor or ceiling), and can grow underwater or floating on subterranean  pools. Whenever a psionic creature ends its turn within 10 feet of a  patch of purple  lichen the lichen will drain X psionic power points  from them (DC Y Will save to halve this amount).  For each Z  points the  lichen patch drains, it grows to fill an additional 5 ft  square. A  5-ft square patch of purple lichen has 10? hit points but is immune to   weapon damage.  Purple lichen is rendered dormant by exposure to any   bright light, and it is killed instantly by exposure to natural daylight   or a daylight spell.

It is rumored that renegade mind flayers developed purple  lichen to  infect and destroy elder brains; some scholar speculate that purple  lichen  causes a horrific disease when placed in direct contact with  brain  matter. *[*Purple lichen causes a supernatural disease, called _purple rot_, that only affects psionic creatures with exposed brains that touch a patch of lichen. _Purple rot's_ effects are the same as mummy rot, except the disease's Fortitude DC has a +10 bonus against Psionic Aberrations. A victim infested with _purple rot_  will have filaments of purple lichen growing in their brain, this lichen will drain power points from the victim and  anyone else within 10 feet until the disease is cured.*]*


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## freyar (Jul 6, 2011)

1d6 power points, DC 17, 20 points to grow?


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## Cleon (Jul 7, 2011)

freyar said:


> 1d6 power points, DC 17, 20 points to grow?




That doesn't seem that many considering the original drained 3d10.

How many power points do typical psionic characters have in 2E compared to 3E, anyway?

1d6 power points does match the rate of the _power leech_ psionic power, and the thought eater drains 6 power points per hit, so I suppose there's some precedent.
We could make it 1d10, so the average (5.5) is close to the damage a thought eater does and it uses the same dice as the original?


----------



## freyar (Jul 7, 2011)

I don't know the exchange rate for 2e and 3.5e power points either, so I just went for a normal seeming number.  Is there a power similar to power leech in 2e psionics?  We could base the numbers on that.  But I don't mind 1d0 or 1d12, either.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 8, 2011)

freyar said:


> I don't know the exchange rate for 2e and 3.5e power points either, so I just went for a normal seeming number.  Is there a power similar to power leech in 2e psionics?  We could base the numbers on that.  But I don't mind 1d0 or 1d12, either.




I think there's a _power leech_ power in 2E, but I'd have to do some reading to check. Never used psionics much in my own games, plus AD&D had several different systems for it at various times.


----------



## freyar (Jul 9, 2011)

Let's pick 1d10 absent any information from Shade or anyone else.  RavinRay would probably know, but I'm not sure he's reading this thread.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 9, 2011)

freyar said:


> Let's pick 1d10 absent any information from Shade or anyone else.  RavinRay would probably know, but I'm not sure he's reading this thread.




So, 1d10 drain, grows by a square on draining 30 power points?

That leaves the Will save for half damage. DC 16 or 18, maybe?


----------



## freyar (Jul 10, 2011)

1d10 and 30 to grow subject to modification given new information.  

I suggested DC 17 earlier, which is right in between.  So it makes not much difference to me.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 10, 2011)

freyar said:


> 1d10 and 30 to grow subject to modification given new information.
> 
> I suggested DC 17 earlier, which is right in between.  So it makes not much difference to me.




17 is fine by me.


----------



## Shade (Jul 11, 2011)

freyar said:


> 1d10 and 30 to grow subject to modification given new information.
> 
> I suggested DC 17 earlier, which is right in between.  So it makes not much difference to me.




Agreed to all this.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> Agreed to all this.




Okay then, so we just need to set the hit points per 5 ft. square and confirm the CR and we should be done.

Revised version...

*Purple Lichen (CR 5?)*
Purple lichen is a parasitic fungoid life form that feeds off psionic   energy. It can live in any damp underground area frequented by psionic   creatures. Purple lichen may grow on any nonhazardous surface (walls,   floor or ceiling), and can grow underwater or floating on subterranean   pools. Whenever a psionic creature ends its turn within 10 feet of a   patch of purple  lichen the lichen will drain 1d10 psionic power points   from them (DC 17 Will save to halve this amount).  For each 30  points the   lichen patch drains, it grows to fill an additional 5 ft  square. A   5-ft square patch of purple lichen has 20 hit points but is immune to    weapon damage.  Purple lichen is rendered dormant by exposure to any    bright light, and it is killed instantly by exposure to natural daylight    or a _daylight_ spell.

It is rumored that renegade mind flayers developed purple  lichen to   infect and destroy elder brains; some scholar speculate that purple   lichen  causes a horrific disease when placed in direct contact with   brain  matter. *(*Purple lichen causes a supernatural disease, called _purple rot_, that only affects psionic creatures with exposed brains that touch a patch of lichen. _Purple rot's_  effects are the same as mummy rot, except the disease's Fortitude DC  has a +10 bonus against Psionic Aberrations. A victim infested with _purple rot_   will have filaments of purple lichen growing in their brain, this  lichen will drain power points from the victim and  anyone else within  10 feet until the disease is cured.*)*


----------



## Shade (Jul 13, 2011)

Since it's higher CR than some of the other hazards, how about boosting the hps to 20?


----------



## Shade (Jul 13, 2011)

Since it's higher CR than some of the other hazards, how about boosting the hps to 20?


----------



## freyar (Jul 14, 2011)

20 hp is fine.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 14, 2011)

Shade said:


> Since it's higher CR than some of the other hazards, how about boosting the hps to 20?




Such a good idea, it was worth saying twice. 

20 hit points suits me. The original was 4 HD, so averaged 18 hp.

I'll update the *most recent version*.


----------



## Shade (Jul 14, 2011)

I'm happy with the latest revision and CR 5.  Everyone else?


----------



## Cleon (Jul 15, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'm happy with the latest revision and CR 5.  Everyone else?




Yup, I'm fine with it.


----------



## Shade (Jul 15, 2011)

Transferred to Homebrews.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 17, 2011)

Shade said:


> Transferred to Homebrews.




Next!


----------



## Mortis (Jul 20, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Next!



Preferably one that's not a hazard.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jul 21, 2011)

Mortis said:


> Preferably one that's not a hazard.




Know of any?  We're scraping the bottom of the barrel on unconverted plants.


----------



## Mortis (Jul 22, 2011)

Shade said:


> Know of any?  We're scraping the bottom of the barrel on unconverted plants.



Unfortunately not off the top of my head.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Cleon (Jul 22, 2011)

Mortis said:


> Unfortunately not off the top of my head.
> 
> Regards
> Mortis




Well the only thing I see in *Echohawk's Unconverted Plants Post *that I don't remember us doing are the Gadabout and the Silver Slime.

If I remember correctly, a Gadabout is basically a living flying ship's boat.

I had no recollection what the Silver Slime is. After checking _*Wildspace*_ it's quite an interesting monster but it definitely looks like an Ooze, not a Plant.


----------



## Shade (Jul 26, 2011)

There's also the very-Savage Coast-specific Vermeil Fungus and the Dragonlance-specific Irda Tree.

EDIT:  There's this one, which I had earmarked for the Forgotten Realms thread, but we could do it here:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/mc/mc20010829b


----------



## Cleon (Jul 27, 2011)

Shade said:


> There's also the very-Savage Coast-specific Vermeil Fungus and the Dragonlance-specific Irda Tree.




Speaking of Savage Coast plants, where's the Gargo-an Rose and Eyeweed?

I also vaguely remember a plant called something like a "zaa-zaa tree" or "zza-zza plant", but that wasn't a Plant Monster, but a mundane plant used to produce a nasty narcotic. What's frustrating me is that I can't remember what sourcebook it's from. I'm thinking it might be Al-Qadim, but can't find the thing.



Shade said:


> EDIT:  There's this one, which I had earmarked for the Forgotten Realms thread, but we could do it here:
> 
> Mintiper's Chapbook - Part 2: Tree of Wailing Souls




Hmm, that's got enough material there for a conversion, and it has more to it than a Vermeil Fungus.


----------



## Shade (Aug 2, 2011)

OK, starting with the basics...



> In appearance, the Tree of Wailing Souls is somewhat akin to a cross between a red oak tree and a death’s head tree, as detailed in the Ravenloft Monstrous Compendium: Appendix III: Creatures of Darkness, but it has a unique set of powers unlike any other found in the Realms.




I don't have stats for a red oak tree, but the death's head tree was detailed in Dragon #339...

*Death's Head Tree*
Huge Plant
Hit Dice: 8d8+40 (85 hp)
Initiative: -2
Speed: 0 ft.
Armor Class: 11 (-2 size, -2 Dex, +5 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+20
Attack: Slam +11 melee (1d8+5)
Full Attack: Slam +11 melee (1d8+5)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: Flying fruit
Special Qualities: Blindsight 60 ft., immunity to fire, plant traits
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +1, Will +2
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 6, Con 18, Int 3, Wis 5, Cha 1
Skills: Listen +5, Spot +6
Feats: Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Iron Will, Weapon Focus (slam)
Environment: Any land
Organization: Solitary or grove (2-20)
Challenge Rating: 5
Treasure: -
Alignment: Usually neutral
Advancement: 11-20 HD (Huge); 21-30 HD (Colossal)
Level Adjustment: -



> Standing over 100 feet in height with a trunk over 20 feet in diameter at its base, the Tree of Wailing Souls has literally thousands of branches and roots.




This suggests Colossal size to me, or at the very least Gargantuan.



> The Tree of Wailing Souls has 30 Hit Dice and a THAC0 of 1. The trunk of the tree has 150 hit points and an Armor Class of 3 (from the toughness of the bark). It takes 1d8 points of damage to sever a limb or root, each of which is considered to be AC 5, but such damage does not count against the trunk’s total. The Tree of Wailing Souls is largely resistant to magic (75% Magic Resistance) and wholly immune to magical and nonmagical fire.




So we've got 30 HD, AC 3, high spell resistance, and immunity to fire.



> The Tree of Wailing Souls can manifest as many as a dozen heads at a time at the tips of its branches. Each head is identical to that of a past victim and retains the spellcasting abilities, innate magical abilities, and psionic powers it had in life at the time of its death, as well as a fragmentary collection of memories. Spells are regained twenty-four hours after being cast, and spell-like abilities and psionic powers return at the rate they would have at the time of death. The Tree of Wailing Souls contains literally hundreds of trapped spirits, and it can vary which heads it manifests as it pleases, withdrawing or manifesting at most one head per round. Curiously, the Tree does not seem to select which heads it manifests based on the attendant powers it can employ, but rather choosing heads most likely to horrify whomever (if anyone) currently stands atop Turlangtor.




This suggests high mental ability scores to power these spell-like and psi-like abilities and potential spellcasting/manifesting.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 4, 2011)

Shade said:


> OK, starting with the basics...
> 
> I don't have stats for a red oak tree, but the death's head tree was detailed in Dragon #339...




Well, I remember seeing stats for trees in the Artesia roleplaying game, but that's not D&D. (And yes, they were ordinary, mundane trees).



Shade said:


> *Death's Head Tree*
> Advancement: 11-20 HD (Huge); 21-30 HD (Colossal)
> 
> This suggests Colossal size to me, or at the very least Gargantuan.
> ...




Well that Death Head's Advancement conveniently maxes out at 30 HD, the same as the charmer we're converting, so I'd like to make it Colossal.

Would you post the Flying Heads SA too? The tree of wailing souls appears to have a more powerful version of it.



Shade said:


> This suggests high mental ability scores to power these spell-like and psi-like abilities and potential spellcasting/manifesting.




Since it doesn't demonstrate much tactical nous I'm thinking we should keep the Intelligence low but give it an impressive Wisdom and exceptional Charisma.


----------



## Shade (Aug 5, 2011)

30 HD, Colossal, and the mental scores suggestions all appeal.



Cleon said:


> Would you post the Flying Heads SA too? The tree of wailing souls appears to have a more powerful version of it.




Like a hydra, creatures may attack the tree or its fruit. The tree is only killed if its main body is attacked; attacking the fruit does not harm the tree. The Tiny fruits can be attacked individually. Destroying a fruit does not affect the tree's hit points. Any attack that is nor or cannot be a sunder attempt affects its main body. For example, area attacks deal damage to the main body, not to the fruit. Targeted magical effects cannot attack a fruit while it is attached to the tree.

Flying Fruit (Ex): The headlike fruit of the death's head tree detach from its branches when fully ripened. Interior gases allow it to float and move on its own volition in search of prey for seed implantation. Once the fruit has expended all of its seeds it may bite for 1d4 more rounds, after which it falls and dies. Once detached from the tree, the head fruit are treated as individual creatures and can be subject of targeted magical effects. Area effect spells, such as fireball, affect the head fruit normally once they are detached.

The fruits normally chase humanoids, although they have been known to attack livestock and other non-humanoid creatures. The fruit are unintelligent and the only noise they make is an occasional call for help.

Implant Seed (Ex): The bite of head-fruit or its ranged attack implants a needlelike seed. The seed emits a mind-numbing poison (Fortitude DC 19 negates, save each day, this save DC is Constitution-based) sufficient to mask the ongoing pain of its presence but not otherwise affecting the creature. One day after implantation in a humanoid creature (it has no effect on non-humanoids), the seed begins to grow, dealing 1d4 points of damage to the host on the first day, 2d4 points of damage on the second day, and so on to a maximum of 10d4 points of damage per day. When the implanted creature dies, a new death's head tree sprouts from its corpse.

Spells that hold or harm plants kill the seeds instantly, as does remove disease. A creature with the Heal skill can attempt to remove the seed (DC 15 + 1 per day the seed has grown), which deals half the damage the seed's growth would deal that day. Failing the check by 5 or less means the character removes some of the plant but leaves enough behind to continue growing (restart the growth damage at 1d4 points of damage per day).


----------



## Cleon (Aug 6, 2011)

Shade said:


> 30 HD, Colossal, and the mental scores suggestions all appeal.




Hmm, I just noticed the Dragon magazine version you posted seems to go from Huge to Colossal without passing Gargantuan.

What's up with that?

Still, I like Colossal for this critter.



Shade said:


> Like a hydra, creatures may attack the tree or its fruit. The tree is only killed if its main body is attacked; attacking the fruit does not harm the tree. The Tiny fruits can be attacked individually. Destroying a fruit does not affect the tree's hit points. Any attack that is nor or cannot be a sunder attempt affects its main body. For example, area attacks deal damage to the main body, not to the fruit. Targeted magical effects cannot attack a fruit while it is attached to the tree.




Looks like we should keep most of the above.

If I recall correctly, the Head Fruit have a separate stat block in the Dragon 339 version. I don't fancy digging around in my collection to find the issue and check.



Shade said:


> Flying Fruit (Ex): The headlike fruit of the death's head tree detach from its branches when fully ripened. Interior gases allow it to float and move on its own volition in search of prey for seed implantation. Once the fruit has expended all of its seeds it may bite for 1d4 more rounds, after which it falls and dies. Once detached from the tree, the head fruit are treated as individual creatures and can be subject of targeted magical effects. Area effect spells, such as fireball, affect the head fruit normally once they are detached.
> 
> The fruits normally chase humanoids, although they have been known to attack livestock and other non-humanoid creatures. The fruit are unintelligent and the only noise they make is an occasional call for help.




The Tree's heads are unable to separate from its branches and fly about. Indeed, severing them is required to free a head's trapped soul.



Shade said:


> Implant Seed (Ex): The bite of head-fruit or its ranged attack implants a needlelike seed. The seed emits a mind-numbing poison (Fortitude DC 19 negates, save each day, this save DC is Constitution-based) sufficient to mask the ongoing pain of its presence but not otherwise affecting the creature. One day after implantation in a humanoid creature (it has no effect on non-humanoids), the seed begins to grow, dealing 1d4 points of damage to the host on the first day, 2d4 points of damage on the second day, and so on to a maximum of 10d4 points of damage per day. When the implanted creature dies, a new death's head tree sprouts from its corpse.
> 
> Spells that hold or harm plants kill the seeds instantly, as does remove disease. A creature with the Heal skill can attempt to remove the seed (DC 15 + 1 per day the seed has grown), which deals half the damage the seed's growth would deal that day. Failing the check by 5 or less means the character removes some of the plant but leaves enough behind to continue growing (restart the growth damage at 1d4 points of damage per day).




Rather than Implant, the Tree of Wailing Souls traps its victims souls via a powerful curse it can apply to anyone whose blood it absorbs.


----------



## freyar (Aug 10, 2011)

Well, we're just tossing ideas around.  Are we set on ability scores?  Physical scores based on the death's head tree but advanced?


----------



## Cleon (Aug 11, 2011)

freyar said:


> Well, we're just tossing ideas around.  Are we set on ability scores?  Physical scores based on the death's head tree but advanced?




Let's see, the Huge Death's Head is Str 20, Dex 6, Con 18, NA +5, so you're talking Str 36, Dex 4, Con 26, NA +14.

The Strength is OK.

The Dexterity seems a bit odd. The AD&D Death's Head had highly flexible branches and could coordinate up to 16 attacks, so I feel Wizards (or should that be Paizo) ought to have given them a higher Dex. Still, I'm OK with 4 if you are, we can always give them some Multiattack SA and Improved & Superior Initiative to compensate.

Constitution 26 seems a bit weak, though. A Colossal Treant or Shambling would have Con 29, so how about upping it to 30?

The Tree of Wailing Souls has a significantly lower AC than a Death's Head Tree (3 vs 0), suggesting a lower natural armour (+12?) or Dexterity. However, I think that would make it too vulnerable, so I'm game for increasing NA to +20 or so?

Mental wise, the Death's Head is Int 3, Wis 5, Cha 1. I'm thinking something like Intelligence 7, Wisdom 15, Charisma 21.

Altogether, I'm suggesting:
*
Tree of Wailing Souls:* Str 36, Dex 4, Con 30, Int 7, Wis 15, Cha 21, NA +20


----------



## Shade (Aug 11, 2011)

Added the basics to Homebrews.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> Added the basics to Homebrews.




Shouldn't it have a tall creature's Reach = Space?

What stats do the 3E Death Head Tree's flying fruit have?


----------



## freyar (Aug 15, 2011)

Homebrews looks good so far, though I agree with Cleon on the reach.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 16, 2011)

freyar said:


> Homebrews looks good so far, though I agree with Cleon on the reach.




I'm thinking there are a few 3E creatures with "spell/skill stealing" special abilities to base the "spell-casting heads"on, but however we do it they'll probably be a pain to adjudicate.

Does the tree lose a wailing soul's spells once it casts them?


----------



## Shade (Aug 16, 2011)

The neh-thalggu might be a place to start:
Neh-Thalggu (Brain Collector) :: d20srd.org

Here are the flying fruit stats:

A death's head tree attacks with its large branches or its fruits, which bite at enemies or spit needle-like seeds. The bite of fruit attacks automatically implant a seed if successful (see below). Each fruit has six seeds; once all six seeds are expended, the fruit can only bite (an "empty" fruit withers in a few days and drops off the branch).

Like a hydra, creatures may attack the tree or its fruit. The tree is only killed if its main body is attacked; attacking the fruit does not harm the tree. The Tiny fruits can be attacked individually. Destroying a fruit does not affect the tree's hit points. Any attack that is nor or cannot be a sunder attempt affects its main body. For example, area attacks deal damage to the main body, not to the fruit. Targeted magical effects cannot attack a fruit while it is attached to the tree.

Flying Fruit (Ex): The headlike fruit of the death's head tree detach from its branches when fully ripened. Interior gases allow it to float and move on its own volition in search of prey for seed implantation. Once the fruit has expended all of its seeds it may bite for 1d4 more rounds, after which it falls and dies. Once detached from the tree, the head fruit are treated as individual creatures and can be subject of targeted magical effects. Area effect spells, such as fireball, affect the head fruit normally once they are detached.

The fruits normally chase humanoids, although they have been known to attack livestock and other non-humanoid creatures. The fruit are unintelligent and the only noise they make is an occasional call for help.


----------



## freyar (Aug 16, 2011)

Hmm, ok, we have 


> The Tree of Wailing Souls can manifest as many as a dozen heads at a time at the tips of its branches. Each head is identical to that of a past victim and retains the spellcasting abilities, innate magical abilities, and psionic powers it had in life at the time of its death, as well as a fragmentary collection of memories. Spells are regained twenty-four hours after being cast, and spell-like abilities and psionic powers return at the rate they would have at the time of death. The Tree of Wailing Souls contains literally hundreds of trapped spirits, and it can vary which heads it manifests as it pleases, withdrawing or manifesting at most one head per round. Curiously, the Tree does not seem to select which heads it manifests based on the attendant powers it can employ, but rather choosing heads most likely to horrify whomever (if anyone) currently stands atop Turlangtor.



Maybe the heads are flavor, but the ability essentially just allows it to use almost any spell as an SLA 1/day?


----------



## Cleon (Aug 17, 2011)

Shade said:


> Here are the flying fruit stats:
> 
> Like a hydra, creatures may attack the tree or its fruit. The tree is  only killed if its main body is attacked; attacking the fruit does not  harm the tree. The Tiny fruits can be attacked individually. Destroying a  fruit does not affect the tree's hit points. Any attack that is nor or  cannot be a sunder attempt affects its main body. For example, area  attacks deal damage to the main body, not to the fruit. Targeted magical  effects cannot attack a fruit while it is attached to the tree.




I was thinking more what AC and HP the heads have, for if/when the PCs try to attack them.

Never mind, I checked the relevant issue of _Dragon_ and the Head Fruit are *AC* 15 (+2 size, +3 Dex), *HD* 2d8 (9 hp);  *Saves* Fort +3, Ref +3, Will -3; *Abilities* Str 6, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 3, Wis 5, Cha 1.

The rest of their stats don't seem relevant.


----------



## freyar (Aug 17, 2011)

Does attacking the heads do anything anyway?  It can just remanifest another one.  I think we can just put that in the ability.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 18, 2011)

freyar said:


> Does attacking the heads do anything anyway?  It can just remanifest another one.  I think we can just put that in the ability.




If I remember correctly, severing a head and casting some spell (I forgot which) on it allows the trapped soul to go free, which presumably means it "moves on" and can be subjected to _resurrection_-type magic.


----------



## freyar (Aug 19, 2011)

Ahh, ok:



> The tree absorbs any blood shed on the ground within reach of its roots (i.e. anywhere on the slopes of Turlangtor). Once a single drop of blood of any creature’s blood is absorbed, that victim’s fate is thereafter tied to the tree, unless a remove curse is for some reason cast before the fated being’s death. Upon death (i.e. upon dropping below 0 hit points), the victim’s soul is drawn into the tree in a fashion akin to the 8th level wizard spell trap the soul, no matter how much time has passed or how much distance lies between the cursed victim and the Tree of Wailing Souls (assuming the victim is within Realmspace at the time of his death). Once this occurs, the trapped soul can only be freed by physically severing its head from the tree and placing it in contact with whatever remains of his or her mortal form.




So I'd suggest maybe two abilities:  (1) a "use-any-SLA 1/day" from the combination of soul-heads and a (2) trap-the-soul kind of thing.  

Also, we need to remember that it's immune to fire and rejuvenates.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 20, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ahh, ok:
> 
> So I'd suggest maybe two abilities:  (1) a "use-any-SLA 1/day" from the combination of soul-heads and a (2) trap-the-soul kind of thing.
> 
> Also, we need to remember that it's immune to fire and rejuvenates.




I'd explicate it has an SLA "spell book" equal to all the spells known to its trapped souls.

Also, it must manifest a trapped soul as a "head fruit" to cast spells known to the soul.

Should we have some limit to the levels and numbers of spells it can cast? What caster level does it use?

Maybe make it equal to, say, a 15th or 20th level sorcerer that can spontaneously cast any spell known to its trapped souls? With divine spells cast as arcane spells. Oh, and Cha-based DCs for all its spells too, I guess.


----------



## freyar (Aug 24, 2011)

Well, the point is that it has thousands of trapped souls and can manifest any of them at will.  So I'd say it can cast anything in the SRD at will, but maybe any other spells it has to get from a PC it kills?

I'd agree to something like 20th level sorc and Cha-based DCs.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 24, 2011)

freyar said:


> Well, the point is that it has thousands of trapped souls and can manifest any of them at will.  So I'd say it can cast anything in the SRD at will, but maybe any other spells it has to get from a PC it kills?
> 
> I'd agree to something like 20th level sorc and Cha-based DCs.




Yes, that'd be easier than listing a caster level and spell list for thousands of trapped souls...

However,  the spells it can cast are limited to those that its manifested heads know, and the original text says it doesn't pick heads for effective spellcasting, but more to frighten or demoralize its opponents. That means its available spells are essentially random.

It also implies some kind of fear aura, or that the heads give it a circumstance bonus on Intimidate checks.


----------



## freyar (Aug 25, 2011)

Well, I'd think a dozen or so heads lets it cover the SRD spell list pretty well, and I think any mechanism to select spells would be pretty cumbersome.  As for the demoralizing, I'd think that mostly means it manifests any PC's head if it kills one.

Shade, your thoughts?


----------



## Cleon (Aug 28, 2011)

freyar said:


> Well, I'd think a dozen or so heads lets it cover the SRD spell list pretty well, and I think any mechanism to select spells would be pretty cumbersome.  As for the demoralizing, I'd think that mostly means it manifests any PC's head if it kills one.
> 
> Shade, your thoughts?




Yes, it's mainly the cumberousness I'm worries about. The same problem crops up with most monsters that steal spells (or other abilities).

I am becoming tempted by a circumstance bonus to Intimidate / fear DCs if it chooses an appropriate head.


----------



## freyar (Aug 30, 2011)

Agreede on that circumstance bonus.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 31, 2011)

freyar said:


> Agreede on that circumstance bonus.




Good. We ought to make it something hefty, since it probably won't have many skill ranks in Intimidate.


----------



## freyar (Sep 2, 2011)

+8 or maybe +12.  But I think it could find some ranks for Intimidate.  It should have a pretty decent number with all its HD.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 3, 2011)

freyar said:


> +8 or maybe +12.  But I think it could find some ranks for Intimidate.  It should have a pretty decent number with all its HD.




Come to think of it, does it have any access to the senses of its "head fruit" or the memories of its trapped souls? Would that give it All Around Vision or a circumstance bonus on Knowledge checks?


----------



## freyar (Sep 5, 2011)

I'm happy to give it a flat circumstance bonus on Knowledge checks (say +4 on all Know checks).  As for senses, all around vision is ok, but I'm more inclined just to give it tremorsense, blindsight, etc.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 6, 2011)

freyar said:


> I'm happy to give it a flat circumstance bonus on Knowledge checks (say +4 on all Know checks).  As for senses, all around vision is ok, but I'm more inclined just to give it tremorsense, blindsight, etc.




I fancy Tremorsense plus All-Around Vision, but not Blindsight.


----------



## freyar (Sep 6, 2011)

That's ok by me.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 7, 2011)

freyar said:


> That's ok by me.




Range for the tremorsense?


----------



## freyar (Sep 8, 2011)

60 ft seems about right, but I could go to 100 ft.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 9, 2011)

freyar said:


> 60 ft seems about right, but I could go to 100 ft.




I'd rather it be longer. The original monster had a melee reach of 90 feet, and it should be able to sense at least as far as it can strike. Also, it can trap the souls of anyone who dies on the slopes of its hill, so it would be appropriate if it could also sense everyone on said slopes.


----------



## freyar (Sep 12, 2011)

Oh, that's true.  Ok, how far are you thinking?  Somewhere in the 300 ft range?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 13, 2011)

freyar said:


> Oh, that's true.  Ok, how far are you thinking?  Somewhere in the 300 ft range?




That would suit me.


----------



## Shade (Sep 13, 2011)

+8/+12 bonus to Intimidate appeals, as does tremorsense 300 ft. and all-around vision.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 14, 2011)

Shade said:


> +8/+12 bonus to Intimidate appeals, as does tremorsense 300 ft. and all-around vision.




So how's the Homebrew now?


----------



## freyar (Sep 15, 2011)

Ok, let's choose +12 on the Intimidate bonus.  Just seems right.


----------



## Shade (Sep 16, 2011)

Updated.

So, was it agreed upon it casting spells as a 20th-level sorcerer, with every spell in the SRD on its spells known list?

Did I miss anything else?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> So, was it agreed upon it casting spells as a 20th-level sorcerer, with every spell in the SRD on its spells known list?




I'm not sure it should be archmage level.

What about making it a 15th level sorcerer rather than 20th?



Shade said:


> Did I miss anything else?




The original monster had boughs that could attack targets up to 30 yards away (i.e. a 90 ft. Reach). Would you like to give it that, or average it to a 60 ft. Reach?


----------



## Shade (Sep 19, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I'm not sure it should be archmage level.
> 
> What about making it a 15th level sorcerer rather than 20th?




I suppose so, although 20th would cover the spells of the archmagi whose blood it consumed.  



Cleon said:


> The original monster had boughs that could attack targets up to 30 yards away (i.e. a 90 ft. Reach). Would you like to give it that, or average it to a 60 ft. Reach?




I have no preference.  Anyone?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 20, 2011)

Shade said:


> I suppose so, although 20th would cover the spells of the archmagi whose blood it consumed.




Well I don't mind 20th if you lot prefer it.


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## freyar (Sep 21, 2011)

I like 20th level sorc casting.  Do we allow divine spells cast as arcane?

I think I prefer 60 ft reach, but I could be persuaded for 90 ft (boy that would be nasty).


----------



## Shade (Sep 22, 2011)

freyar said:


> I like 20th level sorc casting.  Do we allow divine spells cast as arcane?




I think so, to represent the spells "picked from brains".



freyar said:


> I think I prefer 60 ft reach, but I could be persuaded for 90 ft (boy that would be nasty).




It would be nasty, but it is a fairly epic critter.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 22, 2011)

freyar said:


> I like 20th level sorc casting.  Do we allow divine spells cast as arcane?




Well the original monster could cast any sort of spell its victims knew, as well as manifest their SLAs and psionic powers, so I think we'd better allow divine spells.

What about psionic powers?


----------



## Shade (Sep 22, 2011)

Cleon said:


> What about psionic powers?




Let's add that to an underbar.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 24, 2011)

Shade said:


> Let's add that to an underbar.




That'd work for me.


----------



## freyar (Sep 27, 2011)

Agreed.  So should we just write this as the usual "Spells" SQ, allowing all spells in the SRD and other spells as absorbed from killed PCs and at the DM's discretion?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 29, 2011)

freyar said:


> Agreed.  So should we just write this as the usual "Spells" SQ, allowing all spells in the SRD and other spells as absorbed from killed PCs and at the DM's discretion?




Yes, no point reinventing the wheel. (In this case, _The Wheel of Unspeakable Arcane Power!_)


----------



## freyar (Oct 3, 2011)

Ok, we've done conversions like this before, so let's just rip off the ability.  Monkey was one, I think.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 4, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ok, we've done conversions like this before, so let's just rip off the ability.  Monkey was one, I think.




Yes, both the Monkey Spirit and General Monkey had versions of that ability.

Of course, the Monkeys are better at it, 'cause they knew Monkey Magic...


----------



## freyar (Oct 5, 2011)

Here's General Monkey:



> Spells: General Monkey can cast arcane spells as a 29th-level sorcerer. He knows all spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. He may also cast spells from the Air, Earth, Fire, Liberation and Water domains as arcane spells, and is considered to know all such spells.
> 
> Spells/day: 6/8/8/8/8/7/7/7/7/6; save DC 18 + spell level). The save DCs are Charisma-based.




Change to:

Spells: The Tree of Wailing Souls can cast arcane spells as a 20th-level sorcerer. It knows all spells from the sorcerer/wizard and cleric spell lists, as well as other spells absorbed from PCs that it kills (see XXX ability) or at the DM's discretion.

?


----------



## Cleon (Oct 6, 2011)

freyar said:


> Here's General Monkey:
> 
> Change to:
> 
> ...




That looks OK, although I'd change the "PCs that it kills (see XXX ability)" to "creatures whose souls it traps (see XXX ability)".

Probably want to add a "DCs are Charisma-based" in there somewhere.


----------



## freyar (Oct 7, 2011)

Those changes are fine; I'd guess the DC line should go with the spells/day listing.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 7, 2011)

freyar said:


> Those changes are fine; I'd guess the DC line should go with the spells/day listing.




That's where it usually belongs, yes.


----------



## freyar (Oct 9, 2011)

Spells/day: 6/8/7/7/7/7/6/6/6/6; save DC 15 + spell level). The save DCs are Charisma-based.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 10, 2011)

freyar said:


> Spells/day: 6/8/7/7/7/7/6/6/6/6; save DC 15 + spell level). The save DCs are Charisma-based.




Putting it together...

Spells: The Tree of Wailing Souls can cast arcane spells as a 20th-level  sorcerer. It knows all spells from the sorcerer/wizard and cleric spell  lists, as well as other spells absorbed from creatures whose souls it traps (see XXX ability) or at the DM's discretion.

		 		Spells/day: 6/8/7/7/7/7/6/6/6/6; save DC 15 + spell level). The save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## freyar (Oct 11, 2011)

Excellent.  Shall we consider the soul-absorbing ability now?


----------



## Cleon (Oct 11, 2011)

freyar said:


> Excellent.  Shall we consider the soul-absorbing ability now?




Sure.


----------



## freyar (Oct 13, 2011)

Starting briefly:

Soul Absorption (Su): If a creature's blood spills onto the ground containing the Tree of Wailing Souls's roots, that creature's soul is absorbed by the Tree upon death if it is on the same plane as the Tree.  This ability functions as the trap the soul spell, with the following exceptions....  bit about cutting off the fruit, adding to spell list, include anything about Outsiders, remove curse (or maybe a different spell) before death prevents...


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## Cleon (Oct 13, 2011)

freyar said:


> Starting briefly:
> 
> Soul Absorption (Su): If a creature's blood spills onto the ground containing the Tree of Wailing Souls's roots, that creature's soul is absorbed by the Tree upon death if it is on the same plane as the Tree.  This ability functions as the trap the soul spell, with the following exceptions....  bit about cutting off the fruit, adding to spell list, include anything about Outsiders, remove curse (or maybe a different spell) before death prevents...




Well, it's a start.

We need a radius for the roots (300 ft., if I remember the original accurately).

Make it clear that the soulbound victim could be anywhere on the same plane as the tree for their soul to be trapped. Which is *nasty*.

Saving throw at some stage? Like _trap the soul_, I suppose.

Does the victim save when their blood touches the ground, when they die, or both?


----------



## freyar (Oct 16, 2011)

300 ft radius for the roots sounds right.  

I'm not sure the original text requires a save, but I'd be inclined to make the save at death (to negate).  I'm also not certain if remove curse or even break enchantment is high enough level to counteract this.  What do you think?


----------



## Cleon (Oct 17, 2011)

freyar said:


> 300 ft radius for the roots sounds right.
> 
> I'm not sure the original text requires a save, but I'd be inclined to make the save at death (to negate).  I'm also not certain if remove curse or even break enchantment is high enough level to counteract this.  What do you think?




There's no mention of a save, but I'd be inclined to add one. Might as well make it apply at the point of death, but I reckon it ought to be a pretty tough Will save.


----------



## freyar (Oct 19, 2011)

The original monster isn't a normal statblock anyway, so we have some leeway.  Let's add a Will save at the victim's death.  I guess Cha-based makes the most sense.  DC 30 seem tough enough?

What do you think about spells to sever the connection?  I kind of don't think remove curse or break enchantment are high-level enough, although I might be ok with break enchantment with a high enough caster level on this effect.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 19, 2011)

freyar said:


> The original monster isn't a normal statblock anyway, so we have some leeway.  Let's add a Will save at the victim's death.  I guess Cha-based makes the most sense.  DC 30 seem tough enough?
> 
> What do you think about spells to sever the connection?  I kind of don't think remove curse or break enchantment are high-level enough, although I might be ok with break enchantment with a high enough caster level on this effect.




Well it specifically says _remove curse_ can prevent soul trapping, so I'd rather use that, probably with a level check.


----------



## freyar (Oct 20, 2011)

Remove curse doesn't take level checks, and it specifically says some curses are too powerful.  I think we've bend the original monster before.  I'll think about it.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 21, 2011)

freyar said:


> Remove curse doesn't take level checks, and it specifically says some curses are too powerful.  I think we've bend the original monster before.  I'll think about it.




Yes, the spell doesn't have a built in level check, but that doesn't stop us adding one to the "how to break the curse" bit of this special attack.

We've already done similar SAs which have a "_remove curse_ that requires a level check" solution.


----------



## freyar (Oct 24, 2011)

True.  Ok, just make it a very tough level check!


----------



## Cleon (Oct 25, 2011)

freyar said:


> True.  Ok, just make it a very tough level check!




J'accord!


----------



## freyar (Oct 25, 2011)

If we're doing a DC 30 Will save, a you'd get comparable odds for success for a 20th level character with a DC 38 CL check (assuming a good Will save).  Want to aim higher or lower than that?


----------



## Cleon (Oct 27, 2011)

freyar said:


> If we're doing a DC 30 Will save, a you'd get comparable odds for success for a 20th level character with a DC 38 CL check (assuming a good Will save).  Want to aim higher or lower than that?




So, you're suggesting a DC 38 level check? That seems too high. I was thinking more DC 25-30. I don't want them having to hunt down an epic-level cleric to remove the curse.


----------



## freyar (Oct 28, 2011)

Its CR is likely to be epic anyway, right?  I don't want to go lower than DC 30.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 29, 2011)

freyar said:


> Its CR is likely to be epic anyway, right?  I don't want to go lower than DC 30.




I was imagining them more CR 18 or so, but then my original concept of them was with CL 15.

The Tree's Challenge Rating will probably be in the lower 20s though, not that far into the epic levels.


----------



## Shade (Oct 31, 2011)

freyar said:


> Its CR is likely to be epic anyway, right?  I don't want to go lower than DC 30.




Yeah, I was thinking epic.   DC 30 or higher appeals.


----------



## freyar (Nov 1, 2011)

Sounds like we should stick to DC 30.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 1, 2011)

freyar said:


> Sounds like we should stick to DC 30.




Well I'd prefer something a bit lower, like 27 for example, but if you're both set on it I guess I _could_ go along.


----------



## freyar (Nov 2, 2011)

It's got 30HD, more than 400 hp, and an 18th level caster beats a DC 30 level check 45% of the time anyway.  Let's stick to DC 30.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 3, 2011)

freyar said:


> It's got 30HD, more than 400 hp, and an 18th level caster beats a DC 30 level check 45% of the time anyway.  Let's stick to DC 30.




Oh, very well.


----------



## freyar (Nov 7, 2011)

Hey, Shade, any chance for a homebrews update?  

Then: what else might these need?


----------



## Shade (Nov 7, 2011)

freyar said:


> Hey, Shade, any chance for a homebrews update?




_As you wish_.................



freyar said:


> Then: what else might these need?




We still need to finish the exceptions you laid out in the soul absorption ability.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 8, 2011)

Shade said:


> We still need to finish the exceptions you laid out in the soul absorption ability.




Looks like we've got quite a ways to go with that ability.


----------



## freyar (Nov 8, 2011)

Anyone else just notice that DC 30 is actually the same as Cha-based? That worked out so well.  

Oh, I thought the racial bonus on Intimidate would be part of the Soul Absorption ability, as so:

Soul Absorption (Su): If a creature's blood spills onto the ground containing the Tree of Wailing Souls's roots, that creature's soul is absorbed by the Tree upon death if it is on the same plane as the Tree. This ability functions as the trap the soul spell (DC 30, saving throw made at the death of the victim), with the following exceptions:

 The Tree of Wailing Souls may manifest a vision of any victim's head upon one of its fruit.  While that head is manifested, the Tree gains a +12 racial bonus on Intimidate checks against all creatures who are familiar with that victim.  In addition, the Tree may cast any spells known to that victim while its head is manifested, even if those spells are not on the sorcerer/wizard or cleric spell lists in the SRD.  

A remove curse spell cast on the victim removes the connection between the victim and the Tree with a successful DC 30 caster level check.  While a victim's soul is absorbed, the victim cannot be returned to life by magic short of divine intervention (or a wish/miracle??); however, if the fruit manifesting the victim's head is cut off, that frees the soul and allows either final death or the return of the victim to life by magical means.

Anything about Outsiders???

The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Whew, that's a bit more complete, at least if you like it.  Take a look at the ? marks.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 9, 2011)

freyar said:


> Anyone else just notice that DC 30 is actually the same as Cha-based? That worked out so well.
> 
> Oh, I thought the racial bonus on Intimidate would be part of the Soul Absorption ability, as so:
> 
> ...




It needs to say what area is encompassed by the roots, and I'd move the remove curse bit to _before_ the information about the soul-trapping. As written, it's could be read as saying a remove curse can release a soul once trapped.

I'd be inclined to remove the wish/miracle bit.

Also, I'm not that fond of calling it "Absorption".

Soul Snaring (Su): If a creature's blood spills onto the ground  containing the Tree of Wailing Souls' roots (an area of X feet radius), the Tree connects itself to that creature's soul. A remove curse spell cast on the victim removes this connection with a successful DC 30 caster level check.

If a creature dies while connected to the Tree of Wailing Souls, their soul is drawn to the tree and trapped if it is on the same plane as the Tree.  This ability functions as the _trap the soul _spell (DC 30, saving throw  made on the death of the victim), with the following exceptions:

 The Tree of Wailing Souls may manifest a trapped soul on one of its fruit as a free action. The Tree can manifest up to twelve such souls simultaneously. The face of the victim will appear on the fruit while the Tree manifests a trapped soul. the Tree gains a  +12 racial bonus on Intimidate checks against all creatures who are  familiar with that victim.  In addition, the Tree may cast any spells  known to that victim while its head is manifested, even if those spells  are not on the sorcerer/wizard or cleric spell lists in the SRD.  

A victim whose soul is trapped in the Tree of Wailing Souls cannot be returned to life  by magic short of an epic spell or divine intervention. If the fruit manifesting a victim's soul is cut off, that frees the  soul and allows either final death or the return of the victim to life  by magical means. [Furthermore, if the Tree is killed all its trapped souls are freed.]

The save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2011)

freyar said:


> Anyone else just notice that DC 30 is actually the same as Cha-based? That worked out so well.




I truly thought you'd planned it that way!


----------



## Cleon (Nov 9, 2011)

Shade said:


> I truly thought you'd planned it that way!




Freyar's clearly got you fooled.


----------



## freyar (Nov 13, 2011)

Shade said:


> I truly thought you'd planned it that way!



I may have but then forgot. 

Cleon's revisions look fine, including the red text (only seems logical, right?).  I'd maybe say that the DCs are Cha-based, and not just the "save DCs" also.  I think we'd talked about a radius for the roots, too.  100 yards?


----------



## Cleon (Nov 13, 2011)

freyar said:


> I may have but then forgot.
> 
> Cleon's revisions look fine, including the red text (only seems logical, right?).  I'd maybe say that the DCs are Cha-based, and not just the "save DCs" also.  I think we'd talked about a radius for the roots, too.  100 yards?




I do recall suggesting 300 ft. for the radius, although I may be mistaken.


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## freyar (Nov 15, 2011)

Thought so, let's just stick that in.  Are there any other special abilities to put in?


----------



## Cleon (Nov 16, 2011)

freyar said:


> Thought so, let's just stick that in.  Are there any other special abilities to put in?




Its needs an "Ensnaring" attack with its roots, and the "Rejuvenation" isn't written up yet.

The original monster could have its appendages severed (removing a slam attack, a "fruit", or an entangling root). We out to give Sunder hit points for all three, and a note as to how long they take to regrow.


----------



## Shade (Nov 16, 2011)

Updated.


----------



## freyar (Nov 16, 2011)

Rejuvenation should be pretty standard, with perhaps some very extreme condition to kill it finally (if any at all).

Ensnaring looks a lot like the assassin vine:


			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Entangle (Su): An assassin vine can animate plants within 30 feet of itself as a free action (Ref DC 13 partial). The effect lasts until the vine dies or decides to end it (also a free action). The save DC is Wisdom-based. The ability is otherwise similar to entangle (caster level 4th).



See below:


> Anyone standing anywhere on the slopes of Turlangtor must make a successful saving throw vs. breath weapon every round or be enmeshed in the tree’s roots. (This is equivalent to a nonmagical entangle spell of unlimited duration. The victim or his or her allies must sever 3d4 roots to release him from the tree’s ensnaring roots. If not rescued, those trapped by the roots will eventually starve to death, and their souls will be drawn into the tree.)



Maybe just change the assassin vine's to an Ex ability and add a little bit of slashing damage to "spill blood."


----------



## Cleon (Nov 17, 2011)

freyar said:


> Rejuvenation should be pretty standard, with perhaps some very extreme condition to kill it finally (if any at all).
> 
> Ensnaring looks a lot like the assassin vine:




We'll probably want the Strength check to escape be higher than _entangle_'s DC 20.



freyar said:


> Maybe just change the assassin vine's to an Ex ability and add a little bit of slashing damage to "spill blood."




Hmm, I'd rather modify the Trap Souls so it can affect victims who die while entangled.


----------



## Shade (Nov 17, 2011)

Cleon said:


> We'll probably want the Strength check to escape be higher than _entangle_'s DC 20.




I'd just make the save DC Str-based or Cha-based (making it DC 38 or 30).



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Maybe just change the assassin vine's to an Ex ability and add a little bit of slashing damage to "spill blood."




I like this, and making it Ex allows for Str-based easier.



Cleon said:


> Hmm, I'd rather modify the Trap Souls so it can affect victims who die while entangled.




Eh?   I think I'd rather keep it with the entangle ability, since the soul snaring ability is already rather bloated.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 17, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'd just make the save DC Str-based or Cha-based (making it DC 38 or 30).
> 
> I like this, and making it Ex allows for Str-based easier.
> 
> Eh?   I think I'd rather keep it with the entangle ability, since the soul snaring ability is already rather bloated.




Adding the soul-trapping to the entangle is fine by me.


----------



## freyar (Nov 22, 2011)

So something like this?

Entangle (Ex): As a free action, the Tree of Wailing Souls may animate its roots (which reach out to a 300 ft radius around the tree).  The effect lasts until the tree dies or decides to end it (also a free action). The ability is similar to entangle (save DC 38 or to break free).  A creature that dies while entangled is affected by the Tree's Soul Snaring ability (see below).  Something about sundering roots?


----------



## Cleon (Nov 22, 2011)

freyar said:


> So something like this?
> 
> Entangle (Ex): As a free action, the Tree of Wailing Souls may animate its roots (which reach out to a 300 ft radius around the tree).  The effect lasts until the tree dies or decides to end it (also a free action). The ability is similar to entangle (save DC 38 or to break free).  A creature that dies while entangled is affected by the Tree's Soul Snaring ability (see below).  Something about sundering roots?




I'd include Escape Artist and Strength checks to escape, like with a web or net. How about:

An entangled creature can escape with a DC Y Escape Artist check or a DC Y Strength check. The roots can also be cut through with sunder attacks (AC Z and Z hit points per 5 foot square). A creature can not be entangled if all the squares in its space have had their roots cut through. The severed roots in a cleared square regrow in X days.


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## freyar (Nov 23, 2011)

Escape Artist and Str checks are included in the entangle description, right (I even mentioned breaking free in the DC bit)?  The real question is if you want to change from the entangle description.  I do like what you have about sundering the roots.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 23, 2011)

freyar said:


> Escape Artist and Str checks are included in the entangle description, right (I even mentioned breaking free in the DC bit)?  The real question is if you want to change from the entangle description.  I do like what you have about sundering the roots.




I'd rather spell it out, "save DC 38 or to break free" is a bit confusing. Besides, I don't want the DM looking up _entangle_ spell and using that spell's set DC20 for the Str or Escape Artist check.


----------



## freyar (Nov 28, 2011)

So just get rid of the bit how it's like the entangle spell?


----------



## Cleon (Nov 30, 2011)

freyar said:


> So just get rid of the bit how it's like the entangle spell?




Yes, it does seem to be superfluous.

*Entangle (Ex):* As a free action, the Tree of Wailing Souls may animate its roots (which  reach out to a 300 ft radius around the tree). Creatures in a square occupied by the roots will be entangled unless they succeed at a DC 38 Reflex save. The effect lasts until  the tree dies or decides to end it (also a free action). A creature that dies  while entangled is affected by the Tree's Soul Snaring ability (see  below). An entangled creature can escape with a DC X Escape Artist check or a DC  X Strength check. The roots can also be cut through with sunder attacks  (AC Y and Z hit points per 5 foot square). A creature can not be  entangled if all the squares in its space have had their roots cut  through. The severed roots in a cleared square regrow in XX days.


----------



## Shade (Nov 30, 2011)

Lookin' good.   Make the DCs with Str-based, with the usual +4 racial bonus on the Str check to break it?


----------



## Cleon (Dec 1, 2011)

Shade said:


> Lookin' good.   Make the DCs with Str-based, with the usual +4 racial bonus on the Str check to break it?




I'm OK with that, although I'm not sure that a +4 bonus is "usual" - there isn't an "Entangle" special ability in the SRD, after all. For comparison, the entangle of a tanglefoot bag has its Str DC +2 higher, while a net is +5.

*Entangle (Ex):* As a free action, the Tree of Wailing Souls may  animate its roots (which  reach out to a 300 ft radius around the tree).  Creatures in a square occupied by the roots will be entangled unless  they succeed at a DC 38 Reflex save. The effect lasts until  the tree  dies or decides to end it (also a free action). A creature that dies   while entangled is affected by the Tree's Soul Snaring ability (see   below). An entangled creature can escape with a DC 38 Escape Artist check  or a DC 42 Strength check. The roots can also be cut through with  sunder attacks  (AC *X* and *Y* hit points per 5 foot square). A creature  can not be  entangled if all the squares in its space have had their  roots cut  through. The severed roots in a cleared square regrow in *Z*  days. 	The check DCs are Strength-based, and the Strength check DC includes a +4 racial bonus.

We still need an AC, hit points, and a regrowth time.


----------



## freyar (Dec 1, 2011)

Let's let it regrow in 1 day.

How about AC = 10+1/2 natural, as you'd have for swallowed whole?  That's AC 20.  That's probably ok at this CR.  And maybe 50 total hp, as wood is supposed to have 10 per inch of thickness.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 1, 2011)

freyar said:


> Let's let it regrow in 1 day.
> 
> How about AC = 10+1/2 natural, as you'd have for swallowed whole?  That's AC 20.  That's probably ok at this CR.  And maybe 50 total hp, as wood is supposed to have 10 per inch of thickness.




Well, the original roots had 1d8 hit points, AC 5, and 3d4 needed to be severed to free a victim. That's an average of 33.75 hp.

So, the AC 20 is OK by me, but I'm leaning towards 60 hit points.

1 day is quite quick, but it seems pretty reasonable considering the entire (above-ground) tree can regrow from its roots "in days or even weeks". 

That argues for it regrowing secondary roots in a few hours. (3-12 hours?)


----------



## freyar (Dec 2, 2011)

60 hp is fine.  And 3d4 hours for root regrowth is ok too.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 3, 2011)

freyar said:


> 60 hp is fine.  And 3d4 hours for root regrowth is ok too.




Good, we're agreed!


----------



## freyar (Dec 5, 2011)

In that case:

Entangle (Ex): As a free action, the Tree of Wailing Souls may animate its roots (which reach out to a 300 ft radius around the tree). Creatures in a square occupied by the roots will be entangled unless they succeed at a DC 38 Reflex save. The effect lasts until the tree dies or decides to end it (also a free action). A creature that dies while entangled is affected by the Tree's Soul Snaring ability (see below). An entangled creature can escape with a DC 38 Escape Artist check or a DC 42 Strength check. The roots can also be cut through with sunder attacks (AC 20 and 60 hit points per 5 foot square). A creature can not be entangled if all the squares in its space have had their roots cut through. The severed roots in a cleared square regrow in 3d4 hours. The check DCs are Strength-based, and the Strength check DC includes a +4 racial bonus.

Moving on, use the standard "Rejuvenation" text with destroying all roots the way to get rid of it?  5d10 days to regrow the whole tree?  (Remember a week in FR is 10 days.)


----------



## Cleon (Dec 5, 2011)

freyar said:


> In that case:
> 
> Entangle (Ex): As a free action, the Tree of Wailing Souls may animate its roots (which reach out to a 300 ft radius around the tree). Creatures in a square occupied by the roots will be entangled unless they succeed at a DC 38 Reflex save. The effect lasts until the tree dies or decides to end it (also a free action). A creature that dies while entangled is affected by the Tree's Soul Snaring ability (see below). An entangled creature can escape with a DC 38 Escape Artist check or a DC 42 Strength check. The roots can also be cut through with sunder attacks (AC 20 and 60 hit points per 5 foot square). A creature can not be entangled if all the squares in its space have had their roots cut through. The severed roots in a cleared square regrow in 3d4 hours. The check DCs are Strength-based, and the Strength check DC includes a +4 racial bonus.
> 
> Moving on, use the standard "Rejuvenation" text with destroying all roots the way to get rid of it?  5d10 days to regrow the whole tree?  (Remember a week in FR is 10 days.)




Sounds good.


----------



## Shade (Dec 6, 2011)

Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 7, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.




So, anything more for the Rejuvenation SQ?


----------



## freyar (Dec 8, 2011)

Just this:

Rejuvenation (Su): It is impossible to destroy the Tree of Wailing Souls through simple combat: The Tree can regrow from a root fragment in 5d10 days. The only way to destroy the Tree completely is to destroy all of its roots after reducing the body's hit points to zero (see the Entangle ability above).


----------



## Cleon (Dec 8, 2011)

freyar said:


> Just this:
> 
> Rejuvenation (Su): It is impossible to destroy the Tree of Wailing Souls through simple combat: The Tree can regrow from a root fragment in 5d10 days. The only way to destroy the Tree completely is to destroy all of its roots after reducing the body's hit points to zero (see the Entangle ability above).




I'd rather their be at least a little information as to how all the roots can be destroyed.


----------



## Shade (Dec 9, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I'd rather their be at least a little information as to how all the roots can be destroyed.




Such as...?


----------



## Cleon (Dec 10, 2011)

Shade said:


> Such as...?




Something like "the entire hill must be destroyed".


----------



## freyar (Dec 11, 2011)

You don't think destroying each 5 ft square of roots is sufficient?  Well, I'm ok with destroying the entire hill, though I'm not sure how you're supposed to do that either. Hrm.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 11, 2011)

freyar said:


> You don't think destroying each 5 ft square of roots is sufficient?  Well, I'm ok with destroying the entire hill, though I'm not sure how you're supposed to do that either. Hrm.




That would only destroy the roots near the surface. The original description is pretty clear that the roots deep in the earth need to be destroyed to.

As to how to do it, I'd think an _elemental swarm_ of earth elementals could probably do the job quite nicely...


----------



## Shade (Dec 12, 2011)

Cleon said:


> That would only destroy the roots near the surface. The original description is pretty clear that the roots deep in the earth need to be destroyed to.
> 
> As to how to do it, I'd think an _elemental swarm_ of earth elementals could probably do the job quite nicely...




...or move earth
...or transmute earth to lava


----------



## Cleon (Dec 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> ...or move earth
> ...or transmute earth to lava




A _move earth_ wouldn't work, since "Trees, structures, rock formations, and such *are mostly unaffected* except for changes in elevation and relative topography".


----------



## freyar (Dec 13, 2011)

Hmmm, do we want to make suggestions or just leave it to the DM?


----------



## Cleon (Dec 13, 2011)

freyar said:


> Hmmm, do we want to make suggestions or just leave it to the DM?




I'm open to suggestions as to whether to make suggestions.


----------



## freyar (Dec 14, 2011)

Let's leave it to the DM. Anyone taking this on is likely to have epic resources handy, so it's probably best for someone who knows the characters to decide.  On the other hand, this thing isn't nearly so scary if you have a bulldozer. 

Well, I think we're about done with the special abilities.  The only other thing from the Mintiper's Chapbook article that I think we should add is that it is possible to communicate telepathically with trapped souls, but they're confused.  Hmmm, could do a Will save or cause some kind of madness in the communicator if we want...


----------



## Cleon (Dec 14, 2011)

freyar said:


> Well, I think we're about done with the special abilities.  The only other thing from the Mintiper's Chapbook article that I think we should add is that it is possible to communicate telepathically with trapped souls, but they're confused.  Hmmm, could do a Will save or cause some kind of madness in the communicator if we want...




I'd rather not go that far.

Probably just have them babble madly if someone makes mental contact with them.


----------



## freyar (Dec 15, 2011)

That's fine, then.  Maybe just a line as follows in soul snaring:

"It is possible to communicate with souls trapped by the Tree's soul snaring ability, but they typically reveal little information while babbling incoherently."


----------



## Cleon (Dec 16, 2011)

freyar said:


> That's fine, then.  Maybe just a line as follows in soul snaring:
> 
> "It is possible to communicate with souls trapped by the Tree's soul snaring ability, but they typically reveal little information while babbling incoherently."




I'd prefer something like "Trapped souls are kept in a state of confused madness while trapped by the Tree's soul snaring ability. It is possible to communicate with a trapped soul, but they only babble incoherently."


----------



## freyar (Dec 18, 2011)

Sure.  Should we move to skills and feats?


----------



## Cleon (Dec 18, 2011)

freyar said:


> Sure.  Should we move to skills and feats?




Be my guest.


----------



## Shade (Dec 19, 2011)

Updated.

Spellcraft 30 ranks is a prereq for several epic feats I'd like to give it.  That only leaves 6 ranks for Concentration, etc.  

Combat Casting, Epic Fortitude, Epic Will, Improved Critical (slam), Weapon Focus (slam), Empower Spell, Enlarge Spell, Intensify Spell, Maximize Spell, Improved Metamagic?


----------



## Cleon (Dec 19, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Spellcraft 30 ranks is a prereq for several epic feats I'd like to give it.  That only leaves 6 ranks for Concentration, etc.




Nothing to stop you giving it hefty bonuses to its skills. 



Shade said:


> Combat Casting, Epic Fortitude, Epic Will, Improved Critical (slam), Weapon Focus (slam), Empower Spell, Enlarge Spell, Intensify Spell, Maximize Spell, Improved Metamagic?




Not in favour of all those Metamagic feats. The flavour text suggests it uses its spells erratically and inefficiently. If it doesn't manifest heads in a manner that optimized its combat potential, I doubt it casts spells in an optimal (i.e. feat-metad) fashion.


----------



## freyar (Dec 20, 2011)

It gets one more feat anyway, right?

Suppose we keep Empower, Maximize, and Intensify feats but drop Enlarge and Imp Metamagic.  Cleon, what would you want to add?


----------



## Cleon (Dec 21, 2011)

freyar said:


> It gets one more feat anyway, right?
> 
> Suppose we keep Empower, Maximize, and Intensify feats but drop Enlarge and Imp Metamagic.  Cleon, what would you want to add?




A few combat feats, such as Power Attack or Stand Still.


----------



## freyar (Dec 22, 2011)

Imp Metamagic is epic, so we shouldn't waste that spot if possible.  At least let's go with Power Attack, Imp Bull Rush, Awesome Blow.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 22, 2011)

freyar said:


> Imp Metamagic is epic, so we shouldn't waste that spot if possible.  At least let's go with Power Attack, Imp Bull Rush, Awesome Blow.




Agreed, but there aren't many interesting melee feats for it to choose.

The classic Dire Charge is no good, since it's immobile!

Maybe Superior Initiative (plus the Improved Initiative prereq, of course), so it's faster on the draw?


----------



## freyar (Dec 23, 2011)

If we dropped Enlarge and Imp Metamagic, we have 3 spots left.  Imp Init, Superior Init, and what else?  Stand Still maybe?  Power Attack?


----------



## Cleon (Dec 23, 2011)

freyar said:


> If we dropped Enlarge and Imp Metamagic, we have 3 spots left.  Imp Init, Superior Init, and what else?  Stand Still maybe?  Power Attack?




Power Attack is likely the most practical, since their roots already help keep opponents in place.


----------



## freyar (Dec 24, 2011)

I still really like Awesome Blow for these.  It just seems right.  How about this?

Combat Casting, Epic Will, Improved Critical (slam), Empower Spell, Intensify Spell, Maximize Spell, Power Attack, Improved Initiative, Superior Initiative, Improved Bull Rush, Awesome Blow


----------



## Cleon (Dec 24, 2011)

freyar said:


> I still really like Awesome Blow for these.  It just seems right.  How about this?
> 
> Combat Casting, Epic Will, Improved Critical (slam), Empower Spell, Intensify Spell, Maximize Spell, Power Attack, Improved Initiative, Superior Initiative, Improved Bull Rush, Awesome Blow




I suppose that's alright.


----------



## freyar (Dec 25, 2011)

Let's see if Shade will approve.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 27, 2011)

freyar said:


> Let's see if Shade will approve.




Fine by me.


----------



## Shade (Jan 5, 2012)

freyar said:


> Let's see if Shade will approve.




I approve.  Updated.


----------



## freyar (Jan 6, 2012)

Almost done....  CR?  I'm afraid I don't have a great feel for it. Maybe CR 24, just less than the elder treant?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 6, 2012)

Shade said:


> I approve.  Updated.




Challenge Rating 21? (mostly due to its casting level)


----------



## freyar (Jan 7, 2012)

Hmm, that may be a better CR.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 7, 2012)

freyar said:


> Hmm, that may be a better CR.




Well 24 feels a little high, but I'd be willing to go up a point to CR 22.


----------



## freyar (Jan 8, 2012)

Let's see what Shade thinks.  I get out of my depth with these epic critters.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 8, 2012)

freyar said:


> Let's see what Shade thinks.  I get out of my depth with these epic critters.




I don't use them myself either, but CR is mostly guesswork anyway unless you use a critter a lot in play.

Somehow I doubt there are that many campaigns were multiple encounters with Draedan are appropriate. Or survivable.


----------



## freyar (Jan 8, 2012)

Hehe.  But we're talking about the Tree of Wailing Souls here, which would be a pretty neat capstone encounter for a campaign ending in the upper teens.  Or maybe just a pre-BBEG encounter.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 9, 2012)

freyar said:


> Hehe.  But we're talking about the Tree of Wailing Souls here, which would be a pretty neat capstone encounter for a campaign ending in the upper teens.  Or maybe just a pre-BBEG encounter.




Well a Challenge Rating of 21-22 feels in the right ballpark.

The Tree is a bit trickier to have as a multiple encountered, since it's supposed to be unique. At least Draedans exist in numbers.


----------



## freyar (Jan 12, 2012)

How about CR 22?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 13, 2012)

freyar said:


> How about CR 22?




I would not kick up a fuss about that.


----------



## freyar (Jan 16, 2012)

Let's go with that and see if Shade objects.  

Treasure sounds like a lot from the description.  How do you like triple standard?  I'd be willing to go down to double.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 17, 2012)

freyar said:


> Let's go with that and see if Shade objects.
> 
> Treasure sounds like a lot from the description.  How do you like triple standard?  I'd be willing to go down to double.




The flavour text suggests the loot's mostly magic items, suggesting something like.

Treasure: 50% coins, standard goods, double items

I might be talked around to triple items, if you tried hard enough.


----------



## freyar (Jan 17, 2012)

It seems to have an affinity for magic items, to be sure, but the detritus of centuries' worth of adventurers ought to be lying around in its roots.  How about double coins, double goods, triple items?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 18, 2012)

freyar said:


> It seems to have an affinity for magic items, to be sure, but the detritus of centuries' worth of adventurers ought to be lying around in its roots.  How about double coins, double goods, triple items?




Very well. It's no big deal to me.

Although much of the loose stuff might just roll down the hill, or be gathered up by the zombie slaves of a local necromancer... (Zombies don't have souls, so the tree may just ignore them.)


----------



## freyar (Jan 18, 2012)

Tactics: what do you think?  Entangles, slams, casts unpredictably?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 18, 2012)

freyar said:


> Tactics: what do you think?  Entangles, slams, casts unpredictably?




That's pretty much it, yes.


----------



## Shade (Jan 19, 2012)

freyar said:


> How about CR 22?






Cleon said:


> I would not kick up a fuss about that.






freyar said:


> Let's go with that and see if Shade objects.




I do not object.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 19, 2012)

Shade said:


> I do not object.




Good!

What about the treasure proposals?


----------



## freyar (Jan 21, 2012)

Of course he likes it. 

Tactics: The Tree of Wailing Souls first entangles its victims, sometimes waiting until they encamp on the surrounding hill.  Then it comes to life in a whirlwind of slams and sometimes spells, which it casts nearly randomly.  When it absorbs a soul, it manifests that head in order to intimidate its remaining opponents.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 21, 2012)

freyar said:


> Of course he likes it.
> 
> Tactics: The Tree of Wailing Souls first entangles its victims, sometimes waiting until they encamp on the surrounding hill.  Then it comes to life in a whirlwind of slams and sometimes spells, which it casts nearly randomly.  When it absorbs a soul, it manifests that head in order to intimidate its remaining opponents.




I think you have one sometimes too many, and I would like it to mention "head fruit". Also not that keen on the "encamp on the surrounding hill", I'd condense it to "camp nearby".

The Tree of Wailing Souls first entangles its victims, sometimes waiting  until they camp nearby.  Then it comes to life in a  whirlwind of slams and spells, which it casts nearly randomly.   When it snares a soul, it manifests the soul as a head-fruit to intimidate  its remaining opponents.


----------



## freyar (Jan 23, 2012)

Sure, that's fine.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 24, 2012)

freyar said:


> Sure, that's fine.




What do we have left then, if anything?


----------



## freyar (Jan 24, 2012)

Just description, flavor, and language, I think.

I vote that it can speak any language known by one of the absorbed souls, which is essentially anything.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 25, 2012)

freyar said:


> Just description, flavor, and language, I think.




We just need to trim down the original text for the background and description.



freyar said:


> I vote that it can speak any language known by one of the absorbed souls, which is essentially anything.




That makes sense.


----------



## freyar (Jan 25, 2012)

Here's a go at description: 

A massive tree rustles in the wind at the top of a mighty hill.  Suddenly, roots erupt from the ground around you, and faces appear on the branches, shouting powerful curses at you.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 26, 2012)

freyar said:


> Here's a go at description:
> 
> A massive tree rustles in the wind at the top of a mighty hill.  Suddenly, roots erupt from the ground around you, and faces appear on the branches, shouting powerful curses at you.




I don't like the "mighty" before hill, and the bit about shouting powerful curses sounds too much like they're _magical_ curses.

How about...

_A massive tree rustles in the wind at the top of a hill.   Suddenly, roots erupt from the ground around you. Insane humanoid faces sprout on its branches like fruit, babbling and spitting out obscenities._


----------



## Shade (Jan 26, 2012)

Looks good.  Updated.  I added some flavor text and "In the Realms" section.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 27, 2012)

Shade said:


> Looks good.  Updated.  I added some flavor text and "In the Realms" section.




I'll just get my _eyes of error spotting_ and _scalpel of criticism_ and let loose upon it.

Hmm...
...errr...​...ur?​
Dex 4 gives a -3 penalty not -4, so it's AC, Initiative and Reflex save are 1 too high. It'd be easier just making it Dex 2.

Should the alignment be "Always neutral Evil"? I suppose "neutral evil" is OK if it's a unique creature.

The rest of it looks OK.


----------



## freyar (Jan 29, 2012)

The change to the description is fine, though I was actually going for magical curses, seeing as how it's a spell caster.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 29, 2012)

freyar said:


> The change to the description is fine, though I was actually going for magical curses, seeing as how it's a spell caster.




I'd considered that possibility, but I don't favour having descriptions that state (or strongly imply) the creature is doing a particular action. The tree's first action might be wailing on the adventurers with its branches, or casting a spell that isn't _bestow curse_, which might cause the PCs confusion if the DM reads them the description.


----------



## freyar (Jan 31, 2012)

Fair enough.  I always hope DMs never read directly from monster or even area descriptions (in adventures)....

All done then?


----------



## Cleon (Feb 1, 2012)

freyar said:


> Fair enough.  I always hope DMs never read directly from monster or even area descriptions (in adventures)....
> 
> All done then?




I suspect so, although I'd like to run an eye or three over the updated Homebrew before giving it the all-clear.


----------



## Shade (Feb 7, 2012)

Cleon said:


> I suspect so, although I'd like to run an eye or three over the updated Homebrew before giving it the all-clear.




Fix your three eyes upon the Update.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 8, 2012)

Shade said:


> Fix your three eyes upon the Update.




If I run three eyes over the text it doesn't necessarily mean I'm using _*all*_ my eyes. 

Just noticed an error in the AC, it should be touch -2, flat-footed 18. Looks like the Dex adjustment got screwy.

I think we can proceed to the next Plant once that's corrected.


----------



## Shade (Feb 9, 2012)

Fixed.

So, here's what I show as remaining unconverted for this thread:

Fungi and molds
Fungus Vermeil [Savage Coast Monstrous Compendium Appendix]
Silver Slime [Wildspace (SJA1)]

Other potential plants
Gadabout [Monstrous Compendium Spelljammer Appendix II]

Not much.  A couple of hazards and a piece of living equipment.   I suppose some already exist that have been converted by other unofficial sites which we could tackle, but none come readily to mind.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 10, 2012)

Shade said:


> Fixed.
> 
> So, here's what I show as remaining unconverted for this thread:
> 
> ...




The Silver Slime looks very much like a Slime Mold, so we could base it on our recent conversion of that creature.


----------



## Shade (Feb 10, 2012)

Cleon said:


> The Silver Slime looks very much like a Slime Mold, so we could base it on our recent conversion of that creature.




Good idea.  Now to find where I've misplaced Wildspace...


----------



## Cleon (Feb 10, 2012)

Shade said:


> Good idea.  Now to find where I've misplaced Wildspace...




You probably left it around a fire body somewhere.


----------



## Shade (Feb 13, 2012)

Good suggestion!

*Silver Slime*
CLIMATEITERRAIN: The Hive
FREQUENCY: Common
ORGANIZATION: Special
ACTIVITY CYCLE: See below
DIET: Waste food and minerals
INTELLIGENCE: Nil
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Nil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 9
MOVEMENT: 1
HIT DICE: 10
THACO: 18
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGEIATTACK: 3-24 (3d81 I , SPECIAL ATTACKS: Welding torch, etc.
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: S to L (3-8’)
MORALE: Average (10)
XP VALUE:100

An artificial life form created by the mysterious Arcane, this oozing slime maintains the Hive. Its extraordinary threephase life cycle serves different functions within the asteroid complex. These three phases are as follows:

Amoebas: In its basic form, the silver slime is a colony of IO-20,000in ch-long blobs, each weighing about one  ounce. These bright silver blobs, or amoebas, scavenge the area in a 1,000‘ radius, eating all organic waste and small mineral particles.  The small slimes can be destroyed easily and represent no harm to anything larger than a sand particle. This cleaning phase lasts for one week or until the area is clean, whichever is longer.

Plasmodium (slug): Once the cleaning phase ends, the colony of small slimes draws together over a period of two days,gradually growing into a single large blob, colored dull silver and weighing 500-800 Ibs. This slug-like aggregate, called a “plasmodium,” crawls around within an area of one square mile for one week, fixing leaks and repairing breaks.  

The plasmodium has the magical ability to form repair tools from its silvery bulk. When it encounters a crack in some object, the creature extends a pseudopod. The pseudopod transforms into the tool needed to fix the crack.

For metal cracks, the pseudopod becomes a welding torch: a flaming wand that burns hot enough to melt and seal
metal. For cracks in stone, the pseudopod turns into a trowel, and brushes part of its own substance onto the crack.  The slimy material dries hard, sealing the crack. Once the task is complete, the plasmodium reabsorbs the tool.

Sporangia (fruiting bulbs): After one week, or when it has used half of its substance sealing cracks, the plasmodium
halts and extrudes a central stalk. The stalk is a light, woodlike substance similar to cork. The slime colony climbs the stalk, extending it and branching as the climb continues, until the stalk resembles a stately tree 20 feet tall. The slime colony becomes 100-400 silvery spheres about 1” in diameter, each hanging from the end of a branch. Each sphere is called a “sporangium.”

For one week, the immobile colony photosynthesizes, taking in carbon dioxide and exhaling oxygen and so refreshing the asteroids air. Then the papery sporangia burst, expelling a cloud of spores 18’ in diameter. The cloud dissipates in two rounds, and the spores drift on air currents to new locations.  There they land, turn into amoebas, and the life cycle begins again.

Combat: The silver slime can be harmed by all attacks, and it inflicts no special damage. The amoeba phase of the silver slime’s life cycle represents no threat to adventurers. 

The plasmodium has hit points according to its size, like a deadly pudding. (See “Pudding, Deadly” in the Monstrous Compendium, Volume One.) The plasmodium is not aggressive, but PCs might throw themselves in the path of its repair tools and, by singleminded effort, take damage from it. 

The sporangia are not deadly, but they expel their spores when attacked, and PCscaught in the radiusof effect breathe the spores if they fail to save vs. poison. This inflicts 2d4 damage, but has no other ill effects.
Because the silver slime is benign, the XP award for its defeat is low for its size.

HabitatlSociety: The Arcane created the silver slime specifically for the Ravager’s asteroid complex. It is found nowhere else, unless the DM decides that an amoeba drifted away from the asteroid, hitched a ride on a passing spelljammer ship, and started a new life cycle elsewhere.

Ecology: The silver slime, a weird collective life form, functions as scavenger, repairman, and air refresher. The colony subsists on organic waste and mineral breakdown products. However, it does not eat the fine stone powder left from the Ravager’s disintegration process.

The slime colony requires a fairly constant temperature, moist conditions, and light no stronger than that in the asteroid complex. In extreme cold or heat, or in dry or bright conditions, the colony aggregates into its plasmodium form, then forms a thick, hard outer covering (AC4). This “macrocyst” stage preserves the colony’s life for up to one century. When conditions return to optimum, the macrocyst coat dissolves and the colony resumes activity.

This slime’s remarkable life cycle is modelled on a real slime mold called Dictyostelium discoideum. For details,
look in a good encyclopedia under “Slime Molds.”

Originally appeared in SJA1 - Wildspace (1991).


----------



## Cleon (Feb 13, 2012)

Shade said:


> Good suggestion!
> 
> *Silver Slime*




How can it be worth 100 xp when it has 10 Hit Dice and does 3d8 damage?

Oh I see, "Because the silver slime is benign, the XP award for its defeat is low for its size".

Just hope it doesn't decide the gaps in your armour need welding close...

So, it has a "swarm form" that usually only eats trash, a "slug form" that can form a blow-torch or concrete-trowel, and a "Sporocarp form" that isn't very noxious.

Looks like we only need to figure out new abilities for the Slug Form.


----------



## freyar (Feb 14, 2012)

Agreed, and just remove the dangerous parts from the amoeba swarm and the sporocarp.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 15, 2012)

freyar said:


> Agreed, and just remove the dangerous parts from the amoeba swarm and the sporocarp.




How about making its regular natural weapons equivalent to a "secondary weapon", like a Light Horse's hooves, since this is essentially a domestic animal?

Albeit a domesticated slime mold.


----------



## Shade (Feb 16, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Albeit a domesticated slime mold.




Now that's a sentence I'll probably only see once in my lifetime!

Sure, why not?


----------



## Cleon (Feb 17, 2012)

I'll copy over the Slime Mold conversion to use as the basis for a Working Draft.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 17, 2012)

*Silver Slime Working Draft*

*Silver Slime*
 Tiny Ooze (Swarm)
 Hit Dice: 7d10+21 (59 hp)
 Initiative: -4
 Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), climb 10 ft.
 Armor Class: 8 (+2 size, -4 Dex), touch 8, flat-footed 8
 Base Attack/Grapple: +5/—
 Attack: Swarm (1d4 plus 1d6 acid)
 Full Attack: Swarm (1d4 plus 1d6 acid)
 Space/Reach: 10 ft./0 ft.
 Special Attacks: Acid, distraction
 Special Qualities: Amphibious, blind, blindsight 60 ft., half damage  from slashing and piercing, ooze traits, swarm traits, vulnerability to  fire
 Saves: Fort +5, Ref -2, Will -2
 Abilities: Str 4, Dex 3, Con 16, Int —, Wis 1, Cha 1
 Skills: Climb +5, Swim +5
 Feats: —
 Environment: Any aquatic, forest, swamp, and underground
 Organization: Solitary or mass (2-12 swarms)
 Challenge Rating: 4
 Treasure: None
 Alignment: Always neutral
 Advancement: —
 Level Adjustment: —

*Silver Slime Slug*
Large Ooze
  Hit Dice: 7d10+49 (87 hp)
  Initiative: -5
  Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), climb 10 ft.
  Armor Class: 4 (-1 size, -5 Dex), touch 4, flat-footed 4
  Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+18
  Attack: Slam +4 melee (1d6+2 plus 1d6 acid)
  Full Attack: Slam +4 melee (1d6+2 plus 1d6 acid)
  Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
  Special Attacks: Acid, blowtorch, concrete, improved grab
  Special Qualities: Blind, blindsight 60 ft., half damage  from slashing or piercing, ooze traits, vulnerability to  fire
  Saves: Fort +9, Ref -3, Will -2
  Abilities: Str 20, Dex 1, Con 24, Int —, Wis 1, Cha 1
  Skills: Climb +13, Swim +13
  Feats: —
  Environment: Any aquatic, forest, swamp, and underground
  Organization: Solitary
  Challenge Rating: 5
  Treasure: None
  Alignment: Always neutral
  Advancement: 8-13 HD (Large); 14-21 HD (Huge)
  Level Adjustment: —

_A silver puddle of slime, like a living blob of mercury_

A silver slime is an artificial lifeform created by an alien race of  magicians to maintain their building complexes. Silver slimes are a type  of giant slime mold, and go through a similar lifecycle to more mundane  slime molds.

A silver slime will never willingly leave whatever structure it is   assigned to maintain. If forced to leave, the slime stops eating and   eventually starves to death. This is a safety feature to prevent the   uncontrolled spread of these oozes.

In the first stage of its life-cycle, the silver slime is an amoeboid  blob of silver protoplasm that work as a "cleaning crew". They crawl  over every surface in its environment, eating organic stains and refuse  and leaving the surfaces sparkling clean. A silver slime amoeboid will  split into two new amoeboids if it eats enough. Individually, each  "blob" is harmless, but in large numbers they form swarms that may  endanger careless intruders.

In the second stage of its life-cycle, hundreds of amoeboids aggregate  into a large mass resembling a quicksilver slug. This silver slime slug  functions as a "repair crew". If it encounters a damaged object or  structure that's part of the complex it inhabits, the slug extrudes a  pseudopod that transforms into whatever tool it needs to fix the damage.

The third, and final, stage of the silver slime life-cycle is a  sporocarp (a fruiting body). The silver slime slug extrudes a stalk and  climbs up it, gradually branching out and drying until it forms a  tree-like body covered in "fruit" that eventually releases spores that  develop into new amoeboids and start the life cycle anew.

*COMBAT*

In its swarm form, a silver slime will digest any organic matter it  moves across, including living creatures unable to get out of its way.  They do not pursue creatures that escape them.

*Acid (Ex):* A silver slime's acid does not harm metal or stone.

*Distraction (Ex):* Any living  creature that begins its turn with a silver slime swarm in its  space must succeed on a DC 16 Fortitude save or be nauseated for 1  round. The save DC is Constitution-based.

*Silver Slime **Slug*
   Silver slime slugs mindlessly wander around their territory, repairing  any damage they come across. They can form their pseudopods into a  bewildering away of tools. The most significant are a flaming wand that  burns hot enough to weld steel and a trowel that can exude slime that  hardens to the toughness of stone.

A silver slime slug is usually about 8 feet long, 2 to 4 feet wide and 1   foot thick. It can spread its slimy gestalt body into a 8 diameter  disc  up to a foot thick, or condense into a lump 5 feet across and up  to 2  feet tall. A typical specimen weighs 500 to 800 pounds.

*COMBAT*

A silver slime slug does not attack per se, even in self defense, but  may mistake intruders for damaged pieces of equipment and attempt to  "repair" them. Silver slime slugs have been known to melt and refashion a  suit of armor into a door while the armor was being worn be a fighter.  They often mistake opponents for broken bits of a construction and seek  to concrete them into a wall or floor.

*Acid (Ex):* A silver slime's acid does not harm metal or stone.
*
Blowtorch (Ex):* A silver slime slug can form a pseudopod into a flaming wand that can shoot a line of fire up to 10 ft. long. Everything in the blowtorch's area of effect takes 3d8 fire damage (DC 20 Reflex save negates.) The save DC is Constitution-based.

*Concrete (Ex):* As a standard action, a silver slime slug can cover a 5  ft. square with part of its own substance. Any creature in the square  must succeed at a DC 15 Reflex save or become entangled by this slimy  material. If the concreted creature is in contact with a floor of wall  they become stuck to the wall. A silver slime's concrete hardens  rapidly, the concreted creature can escape with a DC 15 Strength check  or a DC 15 Escape Artist check, with the DC increases by +1 per round to  a maximum of +10 after 1 minute. Each 5-foot section of concrete has 15  hit points and damage reduction 3/—. Once the concrete hardens  completely (after 1 minute) it gains damage reduction 8/—. The save DC  is Constitution-based and includes a -5 racial penalty.

* Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, a silver slime slug must   hit  with its slam attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a   free  action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the    grapple check, it establishes a hold and deals damage automatically    every round. Silver slime slugs have a +4 racial bonus on grapple checks    (already figured into the Base Attack/Grapple entry above).

*Silver Slime Sporocarp (CR** ½)*
 A mature silver slime sporocarp resembles a stately, dried-out tree  about 20 feet   tall. Hundreds of spherical silvery "fruit" hang at the  end of the tree's branches, each fruit is about an inch in diameter,  hollow, and filled with spores. A dry sporocarp has vulnerability to  fire. It is AC 1,   hardness 5, and takes 120 hit points of damage to  destroy, but any   weapon damage which does not destroy the sporocarp  causes it to split   open and release its spores. The spores scatter in a  cloud covering a 30   foot radius doing 2d4 points of acid damage to  any organic matter they  touch, including living creatures.

Given enough time and food, even a single spore can grow and multiply   into an entire silver slime colony. Partially developed sporocarps are   soggy and covered with damp mucus, giving them fire resistance 5. Such a   sporocarp poses no threat, since its spores are not ready to  reproduce.


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## freyar (Feb 22, 2012)

I think I'd remove the acid from the swarm.  It really seems to me that only the tools are dangerous in the original monster.


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## Cleon (Feb 22, 2012)

freyar said:


> I think I'd remove the acid from the swarm.  It really seems to me that only the tools are dangerous in the original monster.




Well it does say "it inflicts no special damage" so I suppose we can cut the acid. If we do that I'd probably increase the slam damage though. The original "slug mode" did 3d8 damage, which is far from inconsequential.


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## freyar (Feb 27, 2012)

My reading is that the 3d8 damage is for the blowtorch and that there is no slam.  I'm not averse to keeping a slam, but I wouldn't boost it.

Time to work on the tools?


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## Cleon (Feb 27, 2012)

freyar said:


> My reading is that the 3d8 damage is for the blowtorch and that there is no slam.  I'm not averse to keeping a slam, but I wouldn't boost it.




It's rather vague, all it says it can damage PCs who get in its way with its "repair tools", which could be a pseudopod, "trowel" or "welding torch".  nothing explicit above what the damage is from, apart from that it can cause 3d8 damage.

How about we have the blowtorch do 3d8 fire damage and the "trowel/slam" 2d6+7 damage, but still give it a secondary weapon attack penalty?



freyar said:


> Time to work on the tools?




They should be pretty straightforward.

How's this?

*Welding Torch (Ex):* A silver slime can form its pseudopod into a flaming wand that can deliver a melee touch attack causing 3d8 fire damage.

*Concrete (Ex):* As a standard action, a silver slime can cover a 5 ft. square with part of its own substance. Any creature in the square must succeed at a DC 15 Reflex save or become entangled by this slimy material. If the concreted creature is in contact with a floor of wall they become stuck to the wall. A silver slime's concrete hardens rapidly, the concreted creature can escape with a DC 15 Strength check or a DC 15 Escape Artist check, with the DC increases by +1 per round to a maximum of +10 after 1 minute. Each 5-foot section of concrete has 15 hit points and damage reduction 3/—. Once the concrete hardens completely (after 1 minute) it gains damage reduction 8/—. The save DC is Constitution-based and includes a -5 racial penalty.


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## freyar (Mar 1, 2012)

I can agree with that, though I think I'd like the torch to be a ranged touch attack with maybe a 5 ft or 10 ft range, no range increments.


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## Cleon (Mar 2, 2012)

freyar said:


> I can agree with that, though I think I'd like the torch to be a ranged touch attack with maybe a 5 ft or 10 ft range, no range increments.




Wouldn't a 5 ft. ranged touch attack with no range increments have no mechanical difference from its current 5 ft. Reach melee touch attack?


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## freyar (Mar 5, 2012)

It would use the Dex modifier instead of the Str modifier on the attack.  Plus it avoids things like barbed defense.  

Of course, I don't really object to a 10 ft range.   It's just that a blowtorch sounds more like a ranged attack.  Or even a breath weapon.


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2012)

freyar said:


> It would use the Dex modifier instead of the Str modifier on the attack.  Plus it avoids things like barbed defense.
> 
> Of course, I don't really object to a 10 ft range.   It's just that a blowtorch sounds more like a ranged attack.  Or even a breath weapon.




I don't object to 10 ft. either.


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## Cleon (Mar 6, 2012)

freyar said:


> It would use the Dex modifier instead of the Str modifier on the attack.  Plus it avoids things like barbed defense.




With its current Dexterity of 1 that doesn't seem much of an advantage. 



freyar said:


> Of course, I don't really object to a 10 ft range.   It's just that a blowtorch sounds more like a ranged attack.  Or even a breath weapon.




I guess I don't mind a 10 ft. range. It's within the normal Reach of a Large creature, after all.


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2012)

Cleon said:


> I guess I don't mind a 10 ft. range. It's within the normal Reach of a Large creature, after all.




There ya go.  Justified!


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## Cleon (Mar 9, 2012)

Shade said:


> There ya go.  Justified!




It means it's have a -1 ranged touch attack with the blowtorch, due to the Dex and size penalties.

Should we increase the Dex?

It might be easier changing it to a 10 ft. line with a Str-based Ref save for no (or half?) damage.


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2012)

Making it a 10 ft line is fine with me, but it should be a Con-based DC, like a breath weapon.   Save for half, probably.


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## Cleon (Mar 12, 2012)

freyar said:


> Making it a 10 ft line is fine with me, but it should be a Con-based DC, like a breath weapon.   Save for half, probably.




Con is fine, but I prefer save for no damage since the original seems to be a "hit or miss" affair.


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## Shade (Mar 13, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Con is fine, but I prefer save for no damage since the original seems to be a "hit or miss" affair.




Works for me.


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## Cleon (Mar 14, 2012)

Shade said:


> Works for me.




Updating *Working Draft*.


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## Shade (Mar 15, 2012)

Looking good!   So, we just need the usual flavor elements and the dimensions for the slug?


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## Cleon (Mar 15, 2012)

Shade said:


> Looking good!   So, we just need the usual flavor elements and the dimensions for the slug?




Hmm, the original description says it weighs 500-800 pounds and is 3-8 feet wide. That suggests it's considerably smaller than the Slime Mold, despite having the same size category.

How about...

A silver slime slug is usually about 8 feet long, 2 to 4 feet wide and 1 foot thick. It can spread its slimy gestalt body into a 8 diameter disc up to a foot thick, or condense into a lump 5 feet across and up to 2 feet tall. A typical specimen weighs 500 to 800 pounds. 

That works out to roughly the same density.


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## Shade (Mar 16, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Hmm, the original description says it weighs 500-800 pounds and is 3-8 feet wide. That suggests it's considerably smaller than the Slime Mold, despite having the same size category.
> 
> How about...
> 
> ...




Works for me!


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## Cleon (Mar 16, 2012)

Shade said:


> Works for me!




 Updating *Working Draft*.


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## freyar (Mar 19, 2012)

Looks great!  Do we want to modify the sporocarp at all, or leave it as is?  I guess we could reduce the damage from the spore infestation.


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## Cleon (Mar 20, 2012)

freyar said:


> Looks great!  Do we want to modify the sporocarp at all, or leave it as is?  I guess we could reduce the damage from the spore infestation.




Didn't the description suggests the silver slime's spore burst was more a minor nuisance than a life-threatening hazard?


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Didn't the description suggests the silver slime's spore burst was more a minor nuisance than a life-threatening hazard?




I believe so.


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## Cleon (Mar 20, 2012)

Shade said:


> I believe so.




Let's have a look-see.

"The sporangia are not deadly, but they expel their spores when attacked, and PCs caught in the radius of effect breathe the spores if they fail to save vs. poison. This inflicts 2d4 damage, but has no other ill effects."

So, something minor like 1d3 Con damage (Fort saves negates)?


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## freyar (Mar 23, 2012)

Why not just 2d4 acid damage which doesn't continue or need to be scraped off?  And no more spore infestation.  Like this:

A mature sporocarp resembles a large, dried out mushroom about 10 feet tall. The head of the "mushroom" is hollow and filled with spores about an inch long. A dry sporocarp has vulnerability to fire. It is AC 1, hardness 5, and takes 120 hit points of damage to destroy, but any weapon damage which does not destroy the sporocarp causes it to split open and release its spores. The spores scatter in a cloud covering a 30 foot radius, doing 2d4 points of acid damage to any organic matter they touch, including living creatures.

Given enough time and food, even a single spore can grow and multiply into an entire silver slime colony. Partially developed sporocarps are soggy and covered with damp mucus, giving them fire resistance 5. Such a sporocarp poses no threat, since its spores are not ready to reproduce.


The only other thing to fiddle with is the size, I guess, but I'd be happy to leave that alone.


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## Cleon (Mar 24, 2012)

freyar said:


> Why not just 2d4 acid damage which doesn't continue or need to be scraped off?  And no more spore infestation.  Like this:




I suppose that would work, since we used continuing damage for our Slime Mold conversion's Sporocarp. 

It's just 2d4 acid damage hardly seems worth bothering with, but I suppose that's the point!

CR 1/2?


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## freyar (Mar 27, 2012)

Yeah, CR 1/2 is enough.

Anything mechanical left?


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## Cleon (Mar 27, 2012)

freyar said:


> Yeah, CR 1/2 is enough.




  Updating *Working Draft*.



freyar said:


> Anything mechanical left?




I think we're done with the stats, so it's just flavour left.


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## freyar (Apr 1, 2012)

Tactics:

In swarm form, silver slime will first try to slather as many opponents as possible in its concrete and then coalesce into a slug.


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## Cleon (Apr 1, 2012)

freyar said:


> Tactics:
> 
> In swarm form, silver slime will first try to slather as many opponents as possible in its concrete and then coalesce into a slug.




Firstly, silver slimes can only produce concrete in slug form.

Secondly, silver slime swarms cannot coalesce into a slug during combat. 

The slug form is a later stage in their life cycle, not something they can switch into and out of willy-nilly.

Please try again!


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## freyar (Apr 5, 2012)

Hmmm, somehow I read the concrete as being in swarm form.  I'll have to look at it later, but since this is your baby, how about you have a go?


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## Cleon (Apr 6, 2012)

freyar said:


> Hmmm, somehow I read the concrete as being in swarm form.  I'll have to look at it later, but since this is your baby, how about you have a go?




How's this. (I've also noticed we need to reflavour the appearance of the Sporocarp so it resembles a tree rather than a mushroom, based by the original description).

Thus:

_A silver puddle of slime, like a living blob of mercury_

A silver slime is an artificial lifeform created by an alien race of magicians to maintain their building complexes. Silver slimes are a type of giant slime mold, and go through a similar lifecycle to more mundane slime molds.

A silver slime will never willingly leave whatever structure it is  assigned to maintain. If forced to leave, the slime stops eating and  eventually starves to death. This is a safety feature to prevent the  uncontrolled spread of these oozes.

In the first stage of its life-cycle, the silver slime is an amoeboid blob of silver protoplasm that work as a "cleaning crew". They crawl over every surface in its environment, eating organic stains and refuse and leaving the surfaces sparkling clean. A silver slime amoeboid will split into two new amoeboids if it eats enough. Individually, each "blob" is harmless, but in large numbers they form swarms that may endanger careless intruders.

In the second stage of its life-cycle, hundreds of amoeboids aggregate into a large mass resembling a quicksilver slug. This silver slime slug functions as a "repair crew". If it encounters a damaged object or structure that's part of the complex it inhabits, the slug extrudes a pseudopod that transforms into whatever tool it needs to fix the damage.

The third, and final, stage of the silver slime life-cycle is a sporocarp (a fruiting body). The slime mold slug extrudes a stalk and climbs up it, gradually branching out and drying until it forms a tree-like body covered in "fruit" that eventually releases spores that develop into new amoeboids and start the life cycle anew.

COMBAT

In its swarm form, a silver slime will digest any organic matter it moves across, including living creatures unable to get out of its way. They do not pursue creatures that escape them.

*Silver Slime **Slug*
 Silver slime mold mindlessly wander around their territory, repairing any damage they come across. They can form their pseudopods into a bewildering away of tools. The most significant are a flaming wand that burns hot enough to weld steel and a trowel that can exude slime that hardens to the toughness of stone.

A silver slime slug is usually about 8 feet long, 2 to 4 feet wide and 1  foot thick. It can spread its slimy gestalt body into a 8 diameter disc  up to a foot thick, or condense into a lump 5 feet across and up to 2  feet tall. A typical specimen weighs 500 to 800 pounds.

*COMBAT*

A silver slime slug does not attack per se, even in self defense, but may mistake intruders for damaged pieces of equipment and attempt to "repair" them. Silver slime slugs have been known to melt and refashion a suit of armor into a door while the armor was being worn be a fighter. They often mistake opponents for broken bits of a construction and seek to concrete them into a wall or floor.

*Silver Slime Sporocarp (CR** ½)*
 A mature silver slime sporocarp resembles a stately, dried-out tree about 20 feet   tall. Hundreds of spherical silvery "fruit" hang at the end of the tree's branches, each fruit is about an inch in diameter, hollow, and filled with spores. A dry sporocarp has vulnerability to fire. It is AC 1,   hardness 5, and takes 120 hit points of damage to destroy, but any   weapon damage which does not destroy the sporocarp causes it to split   open and release its spores. The spores scatter in a cloud covering a 30   foot radius doing 2d4 points of acid damage to any organic matter they  touch, including living creatures.

Given enough time and food, even a single spore can grow and multiply  into an entire slime mold colony. Partially developed sporocarps are  soggy and covered with damp mucus, giving them fire resistance 5. Such a  sporocarp poses no threat, since its spores are not ready to reproduce.


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## freyar (Apr 8, 2012)

Looks great!  Guess these are about done then.


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## Cleon (Apr 8, 2012)

freyar said:


> Looks great!  Guess these are about done then.




Well I noticed a could of slime molds that needed replacing with "silver slimes" or "silver slime slugs", but apart

   Updating *Working Draft*.

Hopefully, we're now good to move on to the next beastie...


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## Shade (Apr 10, 2012)

Transferred to Homebrews.


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## Cleon (Apr 11, 2012)

Shade said:


> Transferred to Homebrews.




What's next?


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## Shade (Apr 12, 2012)

Cleon said:


> What's next?




Some R&R on the beach?

I'll try to "dig up" some more plants.


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## Cleon (Apr 13, 2012)

Shade said:


> Some R&R on the beach?




But my friends the Hot Drow Chicks don't like the beach, since they sunburn so easily.



Shade said:


> I'll try to "dig up" some more plants.




I fear we're running short of interesting candidates.


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## Shade (Apr 17, 2012)

Cleon said:


> But my friends the Hot Drow Chicks don't like the beach, since they sunburn so easily.




Spells exist to help with that.  



Cleon said:


> I fear we're running short of interesting candidates.




All the flowers are long gone, leaving nothing but weeds.


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## Cleon (Apr 17, 2012)

Shade said:


> Spells exist to help with that.




Why use spells when _unguents of endure elements_ are a lot more fun to apply... 



Shade said:


> All the flowers are long gone, leaving nothing but weeds.




Unfortunately, I don't think we're even left with the interesting weeds that try to eat PCs.


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