# Synthetist is Shameful.



## joah_from_Alberta (Feb 19, 2012)

I have a mind to write to Paizo for such a poor addition, that I will <beep> if they continue writing such supplements that obsolete their core rules.

I have a player that is level 9 summoner synthetist.  He is fused/hidden inside s a dragon  eidolon that can carry 1 mounted archer and 1 rogue in a haver sack at his front (that he drops off when flying) 

his str27, dex17, con20,  with standard points buy. 

his ac is 29, armour 3, dex 3, shield ability 2, natural 11 defence 1, size -1.  hp 126, Dr 5/ Lawful.   

Feats/special are: bears might, beastial fortitude, improved grapple,  evasion, darkvision 60, greater grapple, lunge, combat reflexes, giant  step, dimensional agility. Traits: reactionary, focused mind 

Equipment is amulet of mighty fist, bracers of armor+3, belt of phy  performance +2, ring of nat+1 and ring of prot+1

Tell me, if this build is acceptable, then what challenges must I present my party to make the game rewarding for everyone?  A shoggoth, a clockwork golem perhaps a lich?  Forgive my rant but please, if you want to feal like a god, why not just go squash some ants or go laugh at some handicaps instead of wasting my time.

Unless this player is cheating, the synthetist should be BANNED due to shameful disregard for proportional equity.  God I hate corporatism.

Cheers,


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## StreamOfTheSky (Feb 19, 2012)

...Welcome to ENWorld.


Anyway, I guess I can just copy/paste what I said not that long ago on a different forum:

[sblock]For what it's worth, Synthesist is actually weaker than normal Summoner, just for the sheer loss of action economy: a normal summoner can be casting spells while his eidolon is pounding face simultaneously. People just get upset about Synth. because it directly and blatantly makes all the martial classes look completely impotent by comparison. It's one of those funny things about the caster/martial divide. Giving up ability to cast (usually actual caster levels, in this case the mere loss of time to use them in the heat of combat without ceasing to melee and making the achetype pointless) in order to be a Big Stupid Fighter is a power downgrade; yet doing so and outfighting the fighter will catch WAY more flak because before you were much better but different. Now you're better and similar.

TL;DR: Dey tuk owr jobs! *rabble* *rabble*[/sblock]

Summoner is a stupidly powerful class.  I consider on par with sorcerer, a 9-level casting class.  And I'm one of those char op people who indeed thinks "casting > all", "never lose a CL", etc...  Just try to FATHOM how powerful a 6-level caster class would have to be to bridge that gap.  Yeah...


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## tylermalan (Feb 19, 2012)

I can't really weigh in about the Summoner class specifically, as I have only heard about how powerful it is but have never seen it in action in a game.  However, I recently had a pretty similar experience with my group, and would like to share my thoughts.

In this experience to which I refer, the character that I play is essentially the Summoner that you're talking about.  I'm playing an Alchemist at level 6 who is focused on using mutagens to be the melee damage dealer.  There was (last week) a fairly big, drama-filled to-do about my character.  Essentially, I obliterate everything.  Fast.

The party consists of myself, a Ranger, a Paladin, a utility Wizard, and a Bard.  The Bard buffs us.  The Paladin buffs us a little and heals us a little (not much on either front).  The Wizard can render one encounter per day completely meaningless, and then he's out.  The Ranger puts out 4 arrows per turn and does high damage, but not as high as me, mainly because of damage reduction and the fact that his 4 arrows counts as 4 separate hits.

Without going into the details of the drama, my main point was that my character is only good at combat.  He has a 7 wisdom and a 7 charisma.  He has no ranks in social skills.  Further, he's only good at combat for one hour per day.

Our DM's main point was that he can't challenge the party because anything that challenges my character will destroy the others, and anything that is a challenge for the others is a cakewalk for me...

...immediately after this argument, the DM had a monster cut a rope bridge which killed the Wizard.  Our group took 2 days of game time to find his body and get him Raised.

So, my point is that if your players are friends then they care about each other.  You don't have to threaten the Super Hero to create tension in your game and in your group - threatening the wizard in my party makes me feel threatened, because I don't want him to die.  The fact that it is almost impossible for MY character to die is truly irrelevant to me, the player.  The only possible issue here is that it is possible that some of the other players have begun to hate combat because they feel useless when one character steals the show.  If this is the case, the entire group needs to talk about what each player wants to get out of the game - how does each player have fun within D&D?  If the person playing a Bard or a support Paladin ONLY has fun in combat, then why did they make a Bard?  They should have made a Barbarian.

The other point here is that beyond combat, I'm useless.  The problem here is that most DMs don't place serious consequences on "failing" social encounters in the same way that they DO place consequences on "failing" combat encounters (usually via death).

So, if you want to create tension, threaten the party.  If this player is uncaring toward his fellow party members, then occasionally take them out of combat and create serious consequences for failing social encounters.  

And your hate is pretty strong... maybe they just made a mistake with the synthesist?  126 hit points is... a lot.  How did he get so many?  At level 6, my Alchemist (with a 14 Con and the Toughness feat with a d8 HD) only has 61 HP.


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## joah_from_Alberta (Feb 19, 2012)

Its good that you feel my hate, the jedi is strong in you and I appreciate your compassionate.  Yet, I should mention that I programmed Unity 3d for 40 hours straight this week and it is my lack of patience that is my bad.  

I did read the section on Power Gamer page 94 of the GMG and that helped.   I realize that I do not wish to adopt an adversarial relationship with anyone in my group, this goes against all virtues that I uphold.  That being said, I also can appreciate the Synthesist as it introduces a potential for abusing our game through complexity.  And ultimately it has brought our group out of isolation and into the community.  Which I value.

So in my opinion, the Synthesist obsoletes many core classes, druid, fighter, mage.  It's harsh.  I actually just found out that his max hit points are 231 combined.  (I allow max hitpoints to pcs as a hero bonus.)

I did come up with a basic formula to outline the power disparity within our party--  compare these 6 values to get a (+/-) melee power rating:

1) your first BAB score (multiplied by 5:
2) # of attacks (multiplied by 5):
3) max damage (non crit):
4) max hit points:
5) base speed (unmounted):
6) AC (multiplied by 5):

We compared my sons level 9 Samurai with our firends level 9 Synthesist and the resultant score is 358 for sammy and 539 for the travesty.  That's a difference of 180! one third, yikes.  This basic rating does not account for the fact that his eidolon also has grab with his first three dragon bite attacks.

Cheers,


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## Fooly_Cooly (Feb 20, 2012)

Wow.... I hadn't heard that this class could be such a problem. I'm glad I saw this. I will definitely not allow this class. Sounds like a real martial class killer. As if I need another optimized arcane build for ppl to play with...


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## Wycen (Feb 20, 2012)

If you are the DM, you could always say, "sorry, the other players wont have fun if you bring this character in, you'll need to tone it down".


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## joah_from_Alberta (Feb 20, 2012)

Well yes I am the GM and I did have a chat with him at Mall food court.  He's a good player and I like to invest the time in good players for maybe they don't know that they're doing something wrong and who knows eh, a bit of effort goes a long way.

So yeah, I explained the overshadowing disparity caused by his uber character and I read to him certain parts of the powergamer definition in the GMG.  I was trying to emphasize the fact that he needs to learn discretion for the game balance, but I think this will take more counseling to stick.  

We decided to work on toning down his character using the formula I devised (which actually works great as a quick benchmark). We agreed that since his char had never allowed the eidolon to return to its plane for a very long time the summoner had actually morphed into the eidolon and can no longer combine hit points which went from 231 to 118.  We ditched some optimization magic and feets to make the character less specialized and a bit more generalized.  

I really liked that my player didn't seem too troubled by this and we were laughing by the end.  Although, he did walk me out of the mall and when I turned to say good by, his eyes were bloodshot and with his smile he looked rather devilish.  Oh well, all in a days work for the dedicated master.

Cheers,


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## tylermalan (Feb 20, 2012)

joah_from_Alberta said:


> can no longer combine hit points




Ohhhhh, they can combine hit points... I didn't know that.  Then that's understandable why they are so high.

But still... 126 HP on JUST the summoner (not combined with the Eidolon)?  That's still high.  d8 HD with a 20 Con and always taking the Favored Class bonus to HP brings him to... Huh, exactly 126.  Well there you go.


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## Rampant (Feb 20, 2012)

You think that's bad?

Consider the brood master who absolutely trashes the action economy especially since the caster portion of the class has nothing better to do than keep his minions alive, they can dedicate themselves to rapid offensive blitzes with manufactured weapons, or even wands and staves via use magic device skills.


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## Steel_Wind (Feb 20, 2012)

In all honesty, my Eldritch Knight at level 9 would have eaten this Synthesist for breakfast.

It's not that big a deal. A pure caster at 9th level has ARRIVED. With fifth level spells, the caster can cast world affecting magic. _Teleport_,_ Wall of Force_, _Cloudkill, Baleful Polymorph _and _Dominate Person_ are available, as is _Raise Dead _for the Cleric.

Want to teach your Synthesist Summoner a lesson? Throw him up against A 9th level Witch and a 9th level Wizard, buffed and flying, plus minions/allies. Two _Enervations_ on round one (with his touch AC they'll miss on a 1 or 2 maybe?) An _Evil-eye_ and _Dominate Person_, cast all in that order by the Witch and the Wizard should have the Synthesist kicking the crap out of the party by the end of round two. DC 20 Will Save with a -9 to his roll (on average) Even if optimized for Will saves (and he won't be as he'll be pumping CHA), he might manage an overall +2 to that DC 20 roll. It's over with an 85% chance of failure, on average. They roll lucky on the Enervation damage, it's an auto fail on all but a 20.

Or just have the Witch and Wizard him with _Enervation_ and then _the witch Baleful Polymorph_s while the Wizard goes to town against the rest of the party on round 2. The Witch can _evil-eye_ + cackle if the enervation damage isn't high enough to ensure an auto-fail.

Any 9th level Paladin, Fighter or Barbarian which is optimized with a strong 2 handed weapon, similar equipment values,_ enlarged_, _hasted_ and and _buffed_ is going to TRASH that Summoner in 2 rounds. Hell, Big Grimm could do it in ONE round if he gets lucky.

Any character in Pathfinder which is optimized is going to kick ass and take names. This really isn't as bad as it looks.  @StreamOfTheSky  is right. The real problems with the Summoner class are in its action economy. The Synthesist does not benefit from that action economy imbalance.


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## Pielorinho (Feb 20, 2012)

I'm trying to figure out if it's legal.  Looking at eidolons, he'd start with a serpentine eidolon with str 12 and dex 16, right?  +3 in each due to 9th level is str 15/dex 19.  It gets one free ability increase, putting it at str 16.  For 10 points, it's up to huge, str 31, dex 15.  That's higher than you suggested, but I don't see how without increasing to huge, it can get to the correct str.

Maybe you can list its evolutions?


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## joah_from_Alberta (Feb 20, 2012)

I certainly appreciate the feedback on this subject, gentlemen.  



> In all honesty, my Eldritch Knight at level 9 would have eaten this Synthesist for breakfast.
> 
> It's not that big a deal. A pure caster at 9th level has ARRIVED. With  fifth level spells, the caster can cast world affecting magic. _Teleport_,_ Wall of Force_, _Cloudkill, Baleful Polymorph _and _Dominate Person_ are available, as is _Raise Dead _for the Cleric.
> 
> ...




I want to stay away from teaching lessons.  As a GM I uphold that my responsibility to the game is to project a balance for the best game in the world.  For those few moments that a balance is achieved, I can then spectate a wonderful display of character, story and setting.  I have already spent my $10000 bill on Warhammer 40k and my best general trophies have long been entombed with my armies.  



> Any character in Pathfinder which is optimized is going to kick ass and take names. This really isn't as bad as it looks.  @StreamOfTheSky   is right. The real problems with the Summoner class are in its action  economy. The Synthesist does not benefit from that action economy  imbalance.




An old chess master once said that when you do not know what to move, let your opponent move as his idea is probably wrong.  We've replaced our battle mat with open terrain without squares where 1"= 5 feet.  I do not believe in the term action economy for it does not properly reflect the teachings of "there are many, there is one, there is none" and "critical mass".  The fact that the summoner is independent from his eidolon is not necessarily advantageous as granted it will allow him the potential of combined arms (which is rarely capitalized by the PCs) but rather, it creates a battlefield dynamic of one large piece and one small piece that the GM can focus on.  And basically, if you knock out the head you kill the body.  

Thanks for your input, I will keep these class combos in mind.  At the end of our session the sythetist was hit by a poisoned bullet from a drow noble mounted on her spitting spider, I rolled boxcars and he lost 12 con from his failed saving throw.  I misplayed the encounter and forgot to grant the 12 level 2 drow their firearms which in hindsight is a good thing for the charging samurai for he was able to hack through their nadachi weapons precision.



> I'm trying to figure out if it's legal.  Looking at eidolons, he'd start  with a serpentine eidolon with str 12 and dex 16, right?  +3 in each  due to 9th level is str 15/dex 19.  It gets one free ability increase,  putting it at str 16.  For 10 points, it's up to huge, str 31, dex 15.   That's higher than you suggested, but I don't see how without increasing  to huge, it can get to the correct str.
> 
> Maybe you can list its evolutions?




My son is going to help figure this out with me now.  

He has 13 evo points.  Starting form:  Quadraped. Claws.  Mount.  Reach.  Flight.  Grab.  Wing buffet.  DR.  Large.  That is 15 points.  

The only other thing we can think of is that he is playing an Ursine race (I specifically told him to keep it official Pathfinder heh heh).  We can't find any reference on Ursine other than it is a bear, yikes.


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## joah_from_Alberta (Feb 20, 2012)

My son and I make a good team:  instant neuter: Pathfinder SRD - Dismissal (Spell)

Cheers,


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## StreamOfTheSky (Feb 20, 2012)

If he has more evo points than normally possible, he could have taken the Extra Evolution feat, possibly more than once (+1 point each time), or he could be a Half-Elf.  They can use their favored class bonus to instead gain +1/4 evo point per summoner level.

Also, wow!  He's a quadruped and DID NOT get pounce?!


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## tylermalan (Feb 20, 2012)

joah_from_Alberta said:


> An old chess master once said that when you do not know what to move, let your opponent move as his idea is probably wrong.  We've replaced our battle mat with open terrain without squares where 1"= 5 feet.  I do not believe in the term action economy for it does not properly reflect the teachings of "there are many, there is one, there is none" and "critical mass".  The fact that the summoner is independent from his eidolon is not necessarily advantageous as granted it will allow him the potential of combined arms (which is rarely capitalized by the PCs) but rather, it creates a battlefield dynamic of one large piece and one small piece that the GM can focus on.  And basically, if you knock out the head you kill the body.




I guess I don't really understand your point here.  Or, rather, I don't agree?  The thing is, whether or not you believe in action economy, it still exists with the RAW of Pathfinder.  This action economy is WHY the Summoner is considered overpowered.  The Synthesist removes this huge benefit to gain higher numbers on the character sheet, but as Steel_Wind pointed out, the Synthesist is probably worse than an optimized Barbarian.  I don't know too many people who would claim that a level 9 Barbarian is overpowered.

It absolutely IS advantageous for the Summoner to be independent of his eidolon, and taking this advantage away from himself by taking the Synthesist essentially means that he's not as much of a headache for you as he could be.


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## Fooly_Cooly (Feb 20, 2012)

Hmm. Now that I look at my dwarven Armiger at lvl 9 the synthesist doesnt seem to bad. Im fairly sure he could be held of whilst a caster made short work of him. Perhaps you could throw some armiger in as body guards for the next big bad boss? They would definitely give the aprty a run for its money.


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## Steel_Wind (Feb 20, 2012)

tylermalan said:


> I don't know too many people who would claim that a level 9 Barbarian is overpowered.




My podcast co-host,  @Azmyth  is of the view that Barbarians are overpowered at any level. My current Barbarian in our* Legacy of Fire *campaign has persuaded him of this. Kyrano is a variant based off of _Big Grimm_, our barbarian Invulnerable Rager we did on the podcast's Character Concept Workshop. It does not help that the damage dealing power of the Barbarian class at low level tends to break most PFS Scenarios, either.  Azmyth hates them.

I have also demonstrated repeatedly with this and another fighter character of mine that a simple 1st level CL1 potion of _Enlarge Person_ is, when looking at the bang for the buck,* easily* the most cost effective  magic item in the game. Personally, I think the rules need revising to stop this from being made into a potion which takes instant effect. It's too good in potion form.

The below sheet shows him as he normally is in combat,_ Raging, enlarged, hasted and buffed_, this Gnoll Barbarian shows why the 9th level Synthesist is not all that and a bag of chips. Next feat brings  _Improved Finishing Cleave_ to the table, too.  This guy _regularly_ does 100+ hit points a round. If he crits, it's north of 170/rnd.

His AC makes him easy to hit, but with DR4 and blur (typical buff), he can take it.  Moreover, he dishes out far more than most can throw at him.

Broken? *Quite possibly.*
___________________________
*K'YRANO 'GHU    CR 8*
Male Gnoll Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager) 9
CN Large Humanoid (Gnoll)
*Init *+2; *Senses *Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +18
--------------------
*DEFENSE*
--------------------
*AC *18, touch 10, flat-footed 15. . (+7 armor, +2 Dex, -1 size, +1 natural, +2 deflection, +1 dodge)
*hp *132 (9d12+54)
*Fort *+15, *Ref *+9, *Will *+11
*DR *4/—, 8/lethal; *Resist *fire 2, Extreme Endurance (Fire)
--------------------
*OFFENSE*
--------------------
*Spd *70 ft.
*Melee * Goreshred (Great Axe)+21/+21/+16 (3d6+24/20/x3 _Human Bane_ Great Axe) 
. . Dagger +19/+19/+14 (1d6+15/19-20/x2) and
. . Entropan +20/+20/+15 (3d6+23/20/x3) and
. . Unarmed Strike +19/+19/+14 (1d4+15/20/x2)
*Ranged *Masterwork Longbow, Composite (Str +5) +17/+17/+12 (1d8+6/20/x3)
*Space *10 ft.; *Reach *10 ft.
--------------------
*STATISTICS*
--------------------
*Str *17/27, * Dex *16/14, * Con *18/22, * Int *11, * Wis *12, * Cha *9
*Base Atk *+9; *CMB *+18; *CMD *29
*Feats *All Gnolls Must Die, Cleave, Cleaving Finish, Great Cleave, Intimidating Prowess, Power Attack -3/+6, Vital Strike
*Traits *Finding Haleen: Barbarian, Killer
*Skills *Acrobatics +15, Appraise +1, Bluff +2, Climb +14, Diplomacy +2, Disguise +2, Escape Artist +3, Fly +1, Handle Animal +4, Heal +3, Intimidate +19, Knowledge (Local) +5, Knowledge (Nature) +8, Linguistics +2, Perception +18, Ride +8, Sense Motive +2, Stealth +7, Survival +11, Swim +14
*Languages *Common, Gnoll
*SQ *Fast Movement +10 (Ex), Intimidating Glare (Ex), Rage (24 rounds/day) (Ex), Raging Leaper +9 (Ex), Reckless Abandon (+/-3) (Ex), Ring of Jumping, Terrifying Howl (DC 22) (Ex)
*Combat Gear *+3 Mithral Chain Shirt, Arrows (20), Dagger, Entropan, Goreshred, Masterwork Longbow, Composite (Str +5); *Other Gear *Adventurer's Sash (6 @ 0 lbs), Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Backpack (empty), Boots of Striding and Springing, Potion of Cure Light Wounds (3), Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds (3), Potion of Enlarge Person (4), Pouch, belt (3 @ 0 lbs), Ring of Jumping, Ring of Protection, +2
--------------------
*SPECIAL ABILITIES*
--------------------
*All Gnolls Must Die* You get a +2 bonus on all Will saving throws and +2 to hit and damage gnolls
*Cleave* If you hit your first target, attack an adjacent target at the same attack bonus in exchange for -2 AC.
*Cleaving Finish* Make additional attack if opponent is knocked out
*Damage Reduction (4/-)* You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
*Damage Reduction (8/lethal)* You have Damage Reduction against non-lethal damage
*Damage Resistance, Fire (2)* You have the specified Damage Resistance against Fire attacks.
*Darkvision (60 feet)* You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
*Extreme Endurance: Fire (Ex)* At 3rd level, the invulnerable rager is inured to either hot or cold climate effects (choose one) as if using endure elements. In addition, the barbarian gains 1 point of fire or cold resistance for every three levels beyond 3rd. This ability replace
*Fast Movement +10 (Ex)* +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.
*Intimidating Glare (Ex)* While raging, use Intimidate to shake your opponents.
*Killer* Add weapon's critical modifier to its critical bonus damage.
*Power Attack -3/+6* You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
*Rage (24 rounds/day) (Ex)* +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
*Raging Leaper +9 (Ex)* Acrobatics: Jump +9
*Reckless Abandon (+/-3) (Ex)* Trade AC penalty for to hit bonus while raging.
*Ring of Jumping* This ring continually allows the wearer to leap about, providing a +5 competence bonus on all his Jump checks.
*Terrifying Howl (DC 22) (Ex)* While raging, howl to panic shaken foes.
*Vital Strike* Standard action: x2 weapon damage dice.
--------------------
Hero Lab® and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at Lone Wolf Development
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.


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## gamerprinter (Feb 20, 2012)

It would seem the OP's real problem is an optimizer playing among a group of non-optimizers, not so much a broken class, as most agree the synthesist is actually weaker than many classes.


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## Fooly_Cooly (Feb 20, 2012)

Actually with the group I play with this problem pops up a lot. If you have 1 or 2 optimized and then 2 regular or even sub par chars in a party together its really hard to judge challenges correctly.


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## Steel_Wind (Feb 20, 2012)

gamerprinter said:


> It would seem the OP's real problem is an optimizer playing among a group of non-optimizers, not so much a broken class, as most agree the synthesist is actually weaker than many classes.




I would agree. 

This is a real problem in many campaigns and it's especially pronounced in Pathfinder Society where the scenarios are written to challenge non-optimized characters. Optimized characters usually blow through std challenges, as Fooly notes.

I don't mind optimized characters provided the twinks and options fit the theme of the character. This is what we try and do on the podcast's CCW -- and even then we often avoid the true "optimal" choice in favor of the one that fits. Still, if you know the rules and understand your build from the word go, it's easy to end up with monstrously powerful characters that play as level +2/3 CR.


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## Fooly_Cooly (Feb 20, 2012)

Yeah. I hate seeing it happen too. Especially when your trying to introduce someone new to d&d. They do their best to put a char together but against the other players in the group who have 6+ years under their belt that char will never get the spotlight.


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## gamerprinter (Feb 20, 2012)

Fooly_Cooly said:


> Yeah. I hate seeing it happen too. Especially when your trying to introduce someone new to d&d. They do their best to put a char together but against the other players in the group who have 6+ years under their belt that char will never get the spotlight.




I don't blame this on experienced players, as basically half our group has been playing since late 1970's, and the only optimizer in our group has only been playing for 5 years. We the more experienced members of the group, don't try to be suboptimal, but none of us are 'optimizers' to death, only the new guy is.


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## Fooly_Cooly (Feb 20, 2012)

Well I guess its just all the experienced players in my group are optimizers of doom. I think that's half the fun for them is making the char a deadly as possible. The party im in right now has this problem. Its an optimized cold sorcerer,a close to optimized armiger(Myself),A witch(The new player),And a gunslinger/alchemist(Someone who has only been in 1 campaign for a few games). When the campaign was started it was agreed it was supposed to be an extreme character test. But it seems us more experienced players forgot to help the new girl optimize her witch and the gunslinger refused any assitance so now he is lagging behind as well. The DM now said he has to tone down the entire campaign as he made it for optimized chars .


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## tylermalan (Feb 20, 2012)

Steel_Wind said:


> My podcast co-host,  @Azmyth  is of the view that Barbarians are overpowered at any level.




Ok, so the barbarian is OP, the melee alchemist is OP, the melee summoner is OP, the eldritch knight, fighter, and paladin can all handle the OP summoner...

...am I missing something here?  None of this makes sense.  xP


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## Steel_Wind (Feb 20, 2012)

tylermalan said:


> Ok, so the barbarian is OP, the melee alchemist is OP, the melee summoner is OP, the eldritch knight, fighter, and paladin can all handle the OP summoner...
> 
> ...am I missing something here?  None of this makes sense.  xP






Some archetypes lead you straight to the optimized feed trough. Most other classes make you work to find that level of _brokenness_.

The Synthesist leads you to the right trough to feed out of. The Musket Master archetype for the Gunslinger does the same and spikes in brokenness at level 5-6, but calms significantly down thereafter and soon becomes underpowered. (Admittedly, at level 5-6, it's a total spotlight hog, I'll give it that). 

All of them, as optimized builds, play above their level in terms of damage output. Some of them -- significantly so. 

Point is, you need to be comparing _apples to apples_ in order to get a feel for some of these archetypes and builds.

When the characters are thrown in with others which are non-optomized, it makes them look especially powerful. Character classes which punch above their weight, especially at low level, tend to get most of the hate as people become more familiar with them because they are exposed to them more often.

All of this, especially those which hit hard at lower level, look worse in Pathfinder Society play where the GM is not permitted to increase the power level of the scenario to compensate. Hence, all the hate in PFS for optimized Barbarians which can "break" level 1-2 mods pretty easily.


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## Fooly_Cooly (Feb 20, 2012)

Yeah. I tried to run crimson thrones once. Had 2 extra party members. It was really difficult to adjust a pre made game for the extra characters. Thats why we dont do pre made games .


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## joah_from_Alberta (Feb 20, 2012)

Steel_Wind said:


> My podcast co-host,  @Azmyth  is of the view that Barbarians are overpowered at any level. My current Barbarian in our* Legacy of Fire *campaign has persuaded him of this. Kyrano is a variant based off of _Big Grimm_, our barbarian Invulnerable Rager we did on the podcast's Character Concept Workshop. It does not help that the damage dealing power of the Barbarian class at low level tends to break most PFS Scenarios, either.  Azmyth hates them.
> 
> I have also demonstrated repeatedly with this and another fighter character of mine that a simple 1st level CL1 potion of _Enlarge Person_ is, when looking at the bang for the buck,* easily* the most cost effective  magic item in the game. Personally, I think the rules need revising to stop this from being made into a potion which takes instant effect. It's too good in potion form.
> 
> ...





This is really great guys, I didn't expect so much learning from my first post on this wonderful board.  Thank ya.  Now then, re: the barb uptop, he is very cool and in my books is a great character build as he is well balanced and can handle multiple combat types.  He would suffer in a white society as a scapegoat but otherwise yeah, very expertly done.

I did compare him with my basic combat index (previous) and his score is 421 (assuming his hp goes up to 159).  This is still above my sons sammy at 358 (with his non-crit max damage of 70 with challenge).  But the synthetist build still bests you with a mighty broken 539.

I will agree that everything is relative and it is up to the GM to maintain a healthy balance using all tools available equally ie. environments, demographics, economy and martial prowess.  And uh, yeah, treasure.

Cheers,


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## concerro (Mar 6, 2012)

This is Wraithstrike. Your formula leaves quiet a few things unaccounted for. The number of attacks section makes a TWF based class look a lot better than they really are. 

The AC of the synthesis is comparable with a fighter or paladin that wants to get high AC.

The feats need to be separated from the non-feats. The class is easier to check that way. 

Stream of the Sky is correct. A regular summoner is better due to action economy. You might not beleive in the term, but it has a very real affect on the game, and it is a good reason why single boss monsters don't do as well as many lesser monsters, but that is another story for another day.

PS:To anyone wondering why I am bringing this thread back to life the OP asked me to post here.


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## joah_from_Alberta (Mar 6, 2012)

My formula is quick and dirty admitted, but it is effectively efficient in comparative demonstration.  

Re: My biggest gripe with the proposed advantage of the action economy of the summoner vs. synthesist is that even though there is double the actions of the summoner combo, there is also a significantly weaker target.  One should consider if the vulnerability of the main character on the field is grounds to disqualify any advantage to proposed action economy. If you ask me I'd rather stay in my chopper than get outside in a fight.  That's just me, but yeah, thanks for the word.

Cheers,


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## concerro (Mar 6, 2012)

joah_from_Alberta said:


> My formula is quick and dirty admitted, but it is effectively efficient in comparative demonstration.
> 
> Re: My biggest gripe with the proposed advantage of the action economy of the summoner vs. synthesist is that even though there is double the actions of the summoner combo, there is also a significantly weaker target.  One should consider if the vulnerability of the main character on the field is grounds to disqualify any advantage to proposed action economy. If you ask me I'd rather stay in my chopper than get outside in a fight.  That's just me, but yeah, thanks for the word.
> 
> Cheers,




The summoner like most casters has ways to keep enemies away. Dimension door is one, and since it is a medium BAB class it can be made to put out damage as well.
So you have the eidolon bringing the pain, and the summoner doing it also, if it is not buffing the party. 
Yeah the summoner is an easier target, but that does not make him an easy target. Of course how difficult will depend upon how good the player is.


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## tylermalan (Mar 6, 2012)

joah_from_Alberta said:


> Re: My biggest gripe with the proposed advantage of the action economy of the summoner vs. synthesist is that even though there is double the actions of the summoner combo, there is also a significantly weaker target.  One should consider if the vulnerability of the main character on the field is grounds to disqualify any advantage to proposed action economy. If you ask me I'd rather stay in my chopper than get outside in a fight.  That's just me, but yeah, thanks for the word.
> 
> Cheers,




I don't know if you're trying to think of this in terms of real-world application or what, or maybe you haven't played a lot of 3.5/Pathfinder (can't remember if you mentioned your experience), but this point you make is essentially irrelevant.  Just take a quick look at the Summoner spell list - among his level 3 spells are Dimension Door, Fly, Greater Invisibility, Displacement... and I'm not even halfway through the list.  The point is, unless the player is totally clueless, the Summoner won't be dying.  Then keep in mind that _due to action economy_ the Summoner can cast one of these spells AND attack (via Eidolon) in the _same turn_.


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## joah_from_Alberta (Mar 6, 2012)

heh heh, yeah or how "bad" the GM is.  A bunch of (low-level) gunslingers flanking the summoner and needing only touch attack.  That reminds me of a wicked GM I once had that plagued a hapless player with a dimensional spider, every session.

If played correctly, every other player should be *at least as powerful as the eidolon (if not then the subject should be up for review).  So essentially the "weaker" summoner in the group becomes the weakest target on the field.

I am willing to bet that the greatest problem with a summoner is most prevalent at an idiosyncratic level within the group.  The class is an aggressive build which precludes that the player will have balls.  I am willing to bet that most often a detente is built up between the player summoner and the GM whereby the GM (and group) is based by the player into "allowing" this ridiculously overpowered character.  It's a form of bullying, but because it remains unacknowledged by the group it continues to manifest itself like an evil spell.

This is shameful, and this is why I devised a formula that could show everyone by assigning one common number to every character in an attempt to unmask the true villains in D&D.

Cheers,


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## tylermalan (Mar 6, 2012)

I feel like we're having two different discussions.


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## Bacris (Mar 6, 2012)

Unfortunately, your formula is incomplete.

Take a look at the formula for the DPR Olympics.  It takes into consideration a variety of things - number of attacks, attack modifier, crit range, crit multiplier - those are absolutely critical components that must be considered to have a true comparison.

Anything else is a guess.

Why?  Because as mentioned, not all attacks are created equally.  15 attacks might sound amazing - but if 7 of them will miss 95% of the time, that's not that big a deal.

The synthesist is less powerful than the base summoner because of loss of actions.  You might disagree with that, but experience would show otherwise.  Hypotheticals are great for a discussion point, but actual practice is where things come out to be seen if they're REALLY a problem, or just a PERCEIVED problem.  You'd be astounded at how often a PERCEIVED problem isn't as big as it's believed to be.


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## BobROE (Mar 6, 2012)

tylermalan said:


> I don't know if you're trying to think of this in terms of real-world application or what, or maybe you haven't played a lot of 3.5/Pathfinder (can't remember if you mentioned your experience), but this point you make is essentially irrelevant.  Just take a quick look at the Summoner spell list - among his level 3 spells are Dimension Door, Fly, Greater Invisibility, Displacement... and I'm not even halfway through the list.  The point is, unless the player is totally clueless, the Summoner won't be dying.  Then keep in mind that _due to action economy_ the Summoner can cast one of these spells AND attack (via Eidolon) in the _same turn_.




Also, because the Eidolon can be/is a large part of a party's damage output the other members of the party make an effort to protect the summoner so that they don't lose both the spell casting potential of the summoner (Haste in every encounter) and the Damage output of the Eidolon.


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## joah_from_Alberta (Mar 6, 2012)

> Also, because the Eidolon can be/is a large part of a party's damage  output the other members of the party make an effort to protect the  summoner so that they don't lose both the spell casting potential of the  summoner (Haste in every encounter) and the Damage output of the  Eidolon.




How bout instead of making an effort to protect another player character they make an effort to play their own characters.

Unfortunately, I have seemingly antagonized some members of this forum.  I do not know of any normal character that has 15 attacks, so I don't understand the relevance of your argument.   It is not my intention to introduce a new formula.  I simply wish to share the fact that I have devised a new formula for calculating a characters melee power that can be used as a quick reference.  It is not scientific, it is not absolute, it is just a quicky and just try it, you might be surprised.  

Perhaps there has been an argument regardiung the summoner vs the synthesist before and it would seem that the term action economy is a championed term.  Well let me introduce another term that is accepted within the community-- critical mass.  I wonder if perhaps BobROE and Bacris actually play synthetists and are coming to it defense.  

Well, regardless,  I have played with a synthetist in my group and I have read from other peoples comments regarding the synthetist in their group and it is my conclusion that the synthetist is a class designed for power gamers who care little about the integrity and balance of the game and only about their own narcissistic values.


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## Bacris (Mar 6, 2012)

I've played all sorts of classes, including the 3.5 core-only druid base class, which was grossly imbalanced yet all sorts of DMs argued "Core-Only" was balanced.

My argument is not for or against the overall level of the synthesist vs other classes, but against the argument that the synthesist is a level of power above the summoner, when the opposite is true.

The fact of that matter is that virtually any class can be played so as to break a game, especially in a party where only one player is optimizing, while the others are not.  You can have a synthesist who is mediocre, while you have a monk who is devastating.  That has always been true and is why DM adjudication is necessary.

Action Economy is not a term that was coined with the synthesist - I recall it being used in the times of 3.5 and was one of the reasons the druid was always brought up - action economy with the shapeshifted druid, the buffed animal companion, and the summoned natures allies could introduce a world of imbalance without the use of anything outside of the core rules.

I'm not antagonized - but you don't seem to actually be discussing the merits of other people's points, but instead minimally retorting and then going off on a different path of discussion.

The argument is that the synthesist is shameful.  My argument is that the synthesist is actually weaker than the base summoner because it gives up quite a bit.  Losing the ability for the summoner to do something while the eidolon engages the enemies is a HUGE tradeoff.  Discounting it doesn't help your point.

Others have argued that your argument that the summoner is a "good target" is flawed, because the summoner has defensive capabilities, as well as the fact that he is not a Wizard - he's d8 / average BAB / with spellcasting.  That's comparable to a bard, monk, or rogue in terms of the class skeleton and he has ways to get away from those who would try to squish him.  You haven't really responded to that point and continue to go on about tangential points - the party protecting the summoner.  In my games, the melee guys protect the caster guys - I assume that's pretty standard combat tactics - toughies protect squishies.  I don't see how the summoner breaks that paradigm or is unique in any way.

My point boiled down is this: is it possible to introduce game imbalance with the Synthesist?  Yes.  Is it possible to introduce game imbalance with ANY of the other classes - core or otherwise?  Yes.  The synthesist / summoner is not unique in this regard and lampooning it as some sort of special case is unfair when a variety of other classes can be used to be decidedly overpowered.


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## Systole (Mar 6, 2012)

Bacris said:


> My point boiled down is this: is it possible to introduce game imbalance with the Synthesist? Yes. Is it possible to introduce game imbalance with ANY of the other classes - core or otherwise? Yes. The synthesist / summoner is not unique in this regard and lampooning it as some sort of special case is unfair when a variety of other classes can be used to be decidedly overpowered.




While I 99% agree with your point, I double-dog dare you to introduce game imbalance with a rogue.


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## Bacris (Mar 6, 2012)

Systole said:


> While I 99% agree with your point, I double-dog dare you to introduce game imbalance with a rogue.




I'll see what I can come up with.  I'll go with level 10 - the standard used in the DPR olympics - and I'll stick to Paizo-only material.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Mar 6, 2012)

Systole, you probably mean that it's difficult if not impossible to break the game with rogue.  But there's also the other meaning of "introduce game imbalance with a rogue."  That is, buff the ever loving hell out of them via houserules to try and make them as powerful as a wizard.  I can guarantee you, if anyone ever did that on any* messageboard, whether it be here, paizo, gleemax... they'd get eaten alive by the angry responses.  People get virulently upset at the thought of a mundane having utterly godlike powers (you know, like casters do).


*Well, I could see minmaxboards / brilliantgameologists gleefully cheering it on...


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## Systole (Mar 6, 2012)

Bacris said:


> I'll see what I can come up with. I'll go with level 10 - the standard used in the DPR olympics - and I'll stick to Paizo-only material.




Excellent.  I will be extremely impressed if you can.

You know, I might give it a go myself.  Hrm.


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## Bacris (Mar 6, 2012)

I'll admit to not being all that savvy on rogues, but I did a little bit of digging.

Here's a rogue setup that - at level 5 - can make any enemy that isn't immune to fear effects flee with no save.  Or be shaken permanently.  With no daily limit.



			
				prototype00 said:
			
		

> Human Rogue (Scout, Thug)
> 
> Feats:
> 1st: Weapon Finesse
> ...


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## Systole (Mar 6, 2012)

I made this thread so we don't clutter a synthesist thread with rogue optimization.


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## joah_from_Alberta (Mar 6, 2012)

Bacris, I can tell you are a prominent poster here on enworld and I just don't want to get dragged into a debate based on justifiable arguments.    

The synthesist is broken because it is easily exploitable, can tank it's physical attribs to maximize its spell casting (particularly nasty in points buy campaign).  The rules for the class are cryptic and complex.  (Not to mention that there are a new dirty tricks that are being used with the large/huge to normal size with magics.)  The biggest exploit I see in this class is the fact that you don't need to place anything in your physical score because your protective eidolon shelters you all day long.  This mechanic in itself makes this class far superior than a regular summoner who must points buy his character equally.  Not to mention the mobility granted to the synthesist. 

Heh heh,  the rogue would get eaten buy a min/maxed level 5 synthesist and you should know better.  Tell me, how does it feel to want to be right all the time?  Were you also defending the druid back in the day?  Is that how you accumulated so many posts and so much connaissance in dissecting other people's posts? Ah ha, enjoy playing your sythesist, I can't imagine how you role play and what decent game would allow such a monster.

*Admin here. Joah, one of the fundamental rules here is that you treat other people with politeness and respect, even when you don't agree with them. Heck, especially when you don't agree with them. Stop insulting people, please. I don't want to see this again.

Thanks. PM me with any questions.  -- Piratecat*

Cheers,


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## concerro (Mar 6, 2012)

joah_from_Alberta said:


> How bout instead of making an effort to protect another player character they make an effort to play their own characters.
> 
> Unfortunately, I have seemingly antagonized some members of this forum.  I do not know of any normal character that has 15 attacks, so I don't understand the relevance of your argument.   It is not my intention to introduce a new formula.  I simply wish to share the fact that I have devised a new formula for calculating a characters melee power that can be used as a quick reference.  It is not scientific, it is not absolute, it is just a quicky and just try it, you might be surprised.
> 
> ...



Nobody is upset at you. We are just explaining why the regular summoner is better than the synthesis. I have never, and hopefully I never will, play in a group where the other PC's don't watch my back. If I am the party wizard or cleric, and the fighter allows an open path to me we will be talking after the session is over. 

I am assuming critical mass a damage based term. If so the eidolon from a regular summoner does just as much damage as a synthesis. I can promise that if switches over to regular summoner and he knows he spells, the player's character will just be harder to deal with.


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## concerro (Mar 6, 2012)

Systole said:


> While I 99% agree with your point, I double-dog dare you to introduce game imbalance with a rogue.



Depends on the GM if he can deal with it or not, but there is the sap master build that doubles sneak attack damage. It has to be nonlethal, but that is just a setup for a coup de grace.


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## concerro (Mar 6, 2012)

joah_from_Alberta said:


> Bacris, I can tell you are a prominent poster here on enworld and I just don't want to get dragged into a debate based on justifiable arguments.
> 
> The synthesist is broken because it is easily exploitable, can tank it's physical attribs to maximize its spell casting (particularly nasty in points buy campaign).  The rules for the class are cryptic and complex.  (Not to mention that there are a new dirty tricks that are being used with the large/huge to normal size with magics.)  The biggest exploit I see in this class is the fact that you don't need to place anything in your physical score because your protective eidolon shelters you all day long.  This mechanic in itself makes this class far superior than a regular summoner who must points buy his character equally.  Not to mention the mobility granted to the synthesist.
> 
> ...




You are taking this way to personally. Most of us don't come here or to any other forum to be right. If we are right then we are, but when proven wrong we have been educated, and that just makes us better gamers. It is a no-lose situation IMHO.


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## tylermalan (Mar 6, 2012)

joah_from_Alberta said:


> How bout instead of making an effort to protect another player character they make an effort to play their own characters.




You've never played with people who wanted to protect other party members?



joah_from_Alberta said:


> Unfortunately, I have seemingly antagonized some members of this forum.  I do not know of any normal character that has 15 attacks, so I don't understand the relevance of your argument.




It's just an analogy.  He's trying to point out that your formula may be flawed because it doesn't take into account all of the important factors.



joah_from_Alberta said:


> It is not my intention to introduce a new formula... I have devised a new formula




wat



joah_from_Alberta said:


> the synthetist is a class designed for power gamers who care little about the integrity and balance of the game and only about their own narcissistic values.




In case you were wondering, this is why you're "seemingly" antagonizing people.



Bacris said:


> Hypotheticals are great for a discussion point, but actual practice is where things come out to be seen if they're REALLY a problem, or just a PERCEIVED problem.




This.



joah_from_Alberta said:


> The synthesist is broken because it is easily exploitable, can tank it's physical attribs to maximize its spell casting (particularly nasty in points buy campaign).  The rules for the class are cryptic and complex.  (Not to mention that there are a new dirty tricks that are being used with the large/huge to normal size with magics.)  The biggest exploit I see in this class is the fact that you don't need to place anything in your physical score because your protective eidolon shelters you all day long.  This mechanic in itself makes this class far superior than a regular summoner who must points buy his character equally.  Not to mention the mobility granted to the synthesist.
> 
> Heh heh,  the rogue would get eaten buy a min/maxed level 5 synthesist and you should know better.  Tell me, how does it feel to want to be right all the time?  Were you also defending the druid back in the day?  Is that how you accumulated so many posts and so much connaissance in dissecting other people's posts? Ah ha, enjoy playing your sythesist, I can't imagine how you role play and what decent game would allow such a monster.
> 
> Cheers,




Aaaaaaand this is where it gets locked.  Glad I made it in!  But more to the point, other classes can be optimized and be problematic, man.  You're really going heavily against conventional wisdom regarding the Summoner with almost all of your points regarding the power of the Synthesist vs the normal Summoner, and then it seems like you're getting mad when no one else is... there is a disconnect here, somewhere.

Maybe your games are vastly different than the majority of other players' games.  In my games, party members work together.  Tanks protect casters.  Some people optimize a little bit, but are far from narcissistic.  Sometimes, someone will optimize a LOT, but will still be far from narcissistic and it rarely (if ever) breaks the game.  All try to roleplay.  Everyone has a good time.  Does this not describe your games?


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## BobROE (Mar 7, 2012)

joah_from_Alberta said:


> How bout instead of making an effort to protect another player character they make an effort to play their own characters.





What, wait?  So if a player is a team player, they're not playing their own characters?  

And I don't play, I DM for a game with a summoner in it, and he's frustratingly annoying cause the edilon can do just as much damage as the melee characters in the party, and the summoner cna cast spells on top of that, which makes everyone else more effective.


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## joah_from_Alberta (Mar 7, 2012)

Nah, critical mass is a scientific term that refers to when something has obtained enough mass to go nuclear.  In the case of the synthesist I am using this analogy to demonstrate that by building a piece it can outshine other pieces.  

You know, I don't really care if the summoner has better action economy than the synthesist.  I actually like the term action economy, I will need to think some more on this term.  I have my reservations about it as I think it does not account for board position but yeah, I need to think some more on this term.

For now gentlemen, I have a serious problem with a crertain synthesist in my game.  This is causing me some duress but it is also giving me vast insight within myself and my game.  I will confide in you that I find myself to be drawn into an adversarial role with my fellow synthesist player.  Now I recognise this as my bad and I admit my fault.  I do not want to disallow the class.  Yet, I do not want to increase the CR challenges for this will cripple the rest of the players.


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## tylermalan (Mar 7, 2012)

joah_from_Alberta said:


> Nah, critical mass is a scientific term that refers to when something has obtained enough mass to go nuclear.  In the case of the synthesist I am using this analogy to demonstrate that by building a piece it can outshine other pieces.
> 
> You know, I don't really care if the summoner has better action economy than the synthesist.  I actually like the term action economy, I will need to think some more on this term.  I have my reservations about it as I think it does not account for board position but yeah, I need to think some more on this term.
> 
> For now gentlemen, I have a serious problem with a crertain synthesist in my game.  This is causing me some duress but it is also giving me vast insight within myself and my game.  I will confide in you that I find myself to be drawn into an adversarial role with my fellow synthesist player.  Now I recognise this as my bad and I admit my fault.  I do not want to disallow the class.  Yet, I do not want to increase the CR challenges for this will cripple the rest of the players.




Fine - this can very well be the case, and no one would dispute this.  As mentioned by others, even a little bit of optimization can seem vastly broken if the rest of the party is UNoptimized by comparison.  Just realize that a lot of this board contains very skilled players, and these players may look at your synthesist player and immediately react with, "You think THAT'S bad?  Nah, man, that's not bad.  I'll show you bad."  They then proceed to drop Big Grimm on you.  Etc.

And what they're really trying to get to is this: is your player ACTUALLY overpowered, or do you just THINK he's overpowered because you can't come up with a way to keep the game interesting when he's in combat?  As mentioned, there are legal builds that are worse, and DMs find a way around these, so...

But, agh, man, this thread was over a long time ago.  It was over at post number 10 by SteelWind.  Or, really, arguably at post number 2, by Stream... But just read post number 10.  He tells you that casters are strong by this level, so this is something that you should expect.  He tells you that your PC is not as bad as it could be.  He then gives you suggestions about how to challenge him AND the rest of the party.  Other than the fact that you said you wanted to stay away from teaching lessons, I consider this thread over already.  And if you DON'T want to teach lessons, then your only question should be "Is everyone having fun?"  If the answer to this question is "yes" then this thread was over before you posted it.


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## Nellisir (Mar 7, 2012)

joah_from_Alberta said:


> The class is an aggressive build which *precludes* that the player will have balls.




I do not think this word means what you think it means.


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## joah_from_Alberta (Mar 7, 2012)

tylermalan said:


> Fine - this can very well be the case, and no one would dispute this.  As mentioned by others, even a little bit of optimization can seem vastly broken if the rest of the party is UNoptimized by comparison.  Just realize that a lot of this board contains very skilled players, and these players may look at your synthesist player and immediately react with, "You think THAT'S bad?  Nah, man, that's not bad.  I'll show you bad."  They then proceed to drop Big Grimm on you.  Etc.
> 
> And what they're really trying to get to is this: is your player ACTUALLY overpowered, or do you just THINK he's overpowered because you can't come up with a way to keep the game interesting when he's in combat?  As mentioned, there are legal builds that are worse, and DMs find a way around these, so...




Yer kidding right?  C'mon, don't patronize me ok, if I wanted to I'd just fill a couple ranks of level 1 gunslingers and have done with them.  I've already posted the bad boy uptop, oh, did I mention that he was playing a Paizo 3rd party bear ursine that gave him improved grapple as a first level feat, heh heh, the sucka would be hitting 15" reach with no a00s and grabbing everything in sight.  heh heh, this is where the discovery part of playing begins, as we all sat down behind of our projector and reviewed his sources we determined that 3rd party was also "home brew" and therefor disallowed in our campaign.


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## joah_from_Alberta (Mar 7, 2012)

This is actually pretty cool internet experience, I feel like I fell in a pond of little fish that are all taking little bites out of me.  Good thing I have my tower of Id.

*Admin here, once again. Folks -- and this applies to everyone -- don't bicker. If you see a problem, please report it with the little triangular "!" at the bottom left of any post. Starting or continuing a fight is not what we want to see. -- Piratecat*


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## Systole (Mar 7, 2012)

Nellisir said:


> I do not think this word means what you think it means.




Oh come on!  You're going to put that quote in there and not link it?!?


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## Nellisir (Mar 7, 2012)

Systole said:


> Oh come on!  You're going to put that quote in there and not link it?!?



Why?  You did it for me.


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## Bacris (Mar 7, 2012)

joah_from_Alberta said:


> This is actually pretty cool internet experience, I feel like I fell in a pond of little fish that are all taking little bites out of me.  Good thing I have my tower of Id.




And with that, I'm done.

If you construe my points as being antagonistic / adversarial, then there's no point in continuing the discussion when I'm simply attempting to have a reasoned debate.

Good luck in your game.

And for the record - I have never played a synthesist, but do have experience in game design and balance and was a pretty common member of the old Character Optimization boards over at the WotC forums and have experiencing seeing where things are that can be exploited and the effect that a single optimized character in a non-optimized party can have.


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## joah_from_Alberta (Mar 7, 2012)

_Post removed by Admin. Keep the thread on topic, please. -- Piratecat_


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## joah_from_Alberta (Mar 7, 2012)

Bacris said:


> And with that, I'm done.
> 
> If you construe my points as being antagonistic / adversarial, then there's no point in continuing the discussion when I'm simply attempting to have a reasoned debate.
> 
> ...




I can appreciate that you have an image to uphold.  But whenever someone from a forum picks apart what I say sentence by sentence, ah that's an old flowchart technique that doesn't value the spirit of the letter.  

I value what you say the most in your closing comments not because you are saying that you have had enough, but rather that having a single optimized character in a group of non-optimized is detrimental.   It would be interesting, rather than to slug words about this if could be analytical and create comparison models that we could then analyze.  Say, we make the most optimized character and we make an optimized synthesist and see how they compare both in combat and out of combat.

If I have offended you, I apologize, I mean no disrespect.  

Cheers,


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## tylermalan (Mar 7, 2012)

You came on here with a really serious attitude from post number 1, then seemed to get more angry at reasonable posts that disagreed with you when these posts weren't even written in an abusive, confrontational way (especially the posts containing the most commonly accepted counter-points to your arguments).  You bring flawed arguments with bad/no evidence and have been angry from the start - I don't know what else to say, other than what I've already said (which you ignored when you quoted me).



tylermalan said:


> But, agh, man, this thread was over a long time ago.  It was over at post number 10 by SteelWind.  Or, really, arguably at post number 2, by Stream... But just read post number 10.  He tells you that casters are strong by this level, so this is something that you should expect.  He tells you that your PC is not as bad as it could be.  He then gives you suggestions about how to challenge him AND the rest of the party.  Other than the fact that you said you wanted to stay away from teaching lessons, I consider this thread over already.  And if you DON'T want to teach lessons, then your only question should be "Is everyone having fun?"  If the answer to this question is "yes" then this thread was over before you posted it.




How much Pathfinder have you DMed or played?  The biggest disconnect here is that many people will experience something in their game that is very, very strong and immediately think it is overpowered because they've never seen something equally strong before.  I think this is why the other posters responded by telling you that your Synthesist PC is not so strong by comparison to actually, really strong characters.  Also, if your other party members are not equally optimized, then your problem PC will seem MORE problematic than it really is within the greater scope of the game-at-large.  Basically, your PC is a combat beast, but the other posters here don't understand how or why that's a problem, ESPECIALLY when you consider that a problematic PC for THOSE POSTERS (who are very skilled, experienced players) would be much, much stronger than the Synthesist which you refuse to believe could not possibly be considered weak.

Inside the context of your game, it might be strong.  But your players might be inexperienced and incapable of making equivalent characters.  They might have bad tactics.  They might not care, and might have purposely made slightly weaker characters for some reason.  All of these things could explain why your Synthesist seems so unbalanced, and none of them have anything to do purposeful power creep on behalf of Paizo or "corporatism".  It's an outlandish claim especially considering the overwhelming community feeling that the Synthesist is less powerful than the normal Summoner.  Open up a little bit and this could actually be a decent conversation.


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## concerro (Mar 7, 2012)

Tylerman is correct. I also found out that at least one of the Synthesis feats is a 3rd party feat that allows him to take a 10 ft step in place of a 5 ft step. I still don't know what the other one does. I would not allow 3PP feats to be combined with a class I was not familiar with.


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## joah_from_Alberta (Mar 7, 2012)

tylermalan said:


> You came on here with a really serious attitude from post number 1, then seemed to get more angry at reasonable posts that disagreed with you when these posts weren't even written in an abusive, confrontational way (especially the posts containing the most commonly accepted counter-points to your arguments).  You bring flawed arguments with bad/no evidence and have been angry from the start - I don't know what else to say, other than what I've already said (which you ignored when you quoted me).
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Tylerman, ease up on the condescending.  I can appreciate that you wish for an intelligent debate.  And I think you appreciate my resolve in this, which is good.  I have reached out to the community for help on this matter.  I have come out smashing and that's okay, I got your attention.  If in my over emphasis I underachieve then at least there will be a record of this for others to follow and all will be conserved.

To answer your question, I have been playing d&d since 1977.  I will explain to you why I do not like the summoner in point form.

10 Reason why *I think the Synthesist is BROKEN

1) It is poorly written and allows itself to ease of exploitation.  







> Another part of the problem is that Eidolons are trivially easy to  make powerful.  Eidolon evolutions are versatile and powerful, and there  are only like 40 of them in total (all concentrated in one or two  places).  It's much simpler for a player to familiarize themselves with  all these evolutions and to figure out nice combinations than it is to  familiarize yourself with the hundreds and hundreds of feats and spells.   And if you screw up and make a mistake, or notice something new, you  can just rebuild the entire thing from scratch at the next level up.





> As already said though, the problem with this archetype is that it's very _very_ hard to do a crappy character with it, a situation rather unique in Pathfinder.
> Wizards, Clerics or even Barbarians all have the potential to be at  least as effective (powerful, if you wish) than a synthesist, but it  demands much more system mastery from the player. This ease of building  can quickly lead to the synthesist overshadowing every other characters,  especially in groups with newer players or, uh, those ignorant of the  Storwind Fallacy. Coupled with murky wording and rules for the  synthesist archetype, and thus lots of mistakes, it gets ugly fast.



2) It is not suited for a points-buy game as players can tank their ability scores to achieve all around epic-like scores.

3) It is a be-all character that is 100% self-sufficient and therefor obsoletes the party:  







> Their rules set are unclear, poorly worded, and allow an immense amount  of min-maxing to create a character that can 'do everything,'  which  goes against the entire ethos of the Pathfinder class system.



4) It adds new mechanics that allow a doubling-effect to hit points, free added CMB/CMD bonus due to size and strength, increase BAB practically free wherby other classes need to invest feats and magic items and thus is a superior tank and obsoletes the fighters.







> At Mid to higher lvls you will outshine everyone in terms of HP/AC/Att/Dmge.





> It’s looked on as a spellcasting class, but it usurps the Tank  role. Thus the pally and Fighter will feel left out.



5) It does not need to place its starting resource gold into protective or damaging equipment thanks to its natural armour bonus (et al starting bonus) and so starts the game with a greater disposable income than all other players.

6) It does not need a mount as it is usually always flying and can greatly outdistance the party, especially effective in wilderness encounters on large scale maps (average d&d does not play this but on projector we do).

7) With 40 evolutions it can make itself into any monster and is the perfect remix to how to make your own creature.  For me D&D has gone from me being a GM to me pitting my piddly forces in a perpetual boss battle.  Thus with its added new evolutions mechanics obsoletes beastiary CR.

8) Should be made optional for advance play only as this character can easily overshadow *any inexperienced players and can put off new players and possibly collapse the GM.  We lost a player on his first session due to gross exposure of the synthesist (all night long) XXX

9) Once something is broken it is easier to make more broken.  A chip in your windshield will spider crack and may eventually impair your vision.


> And before you ask, it has been clarified Synths can take extra  evolution.  Dragon stance lets him pounce through friendlies; with  advanced notice likes freedom of movement so he can charge through rough  terrain as well.




10) The Eidolon mechanic abuses stacking limitations by creating a super armour over the wizard.  Ii is a great irony that the original wizard is forbidden to wear metal armour but in the end we have they synthesist whom can protect himself in a suit of the Emperors finest.  

The class mechanics are unique from traditional class construction and therefore adds an added layer to character creation that can be abused.  So not only can you optimize using traditional optimization tricks (feats, magics, etc), you have the added potential to optimize your new class mechanics (drawing from bestiary feats, etc) resulting in a double-optimized character.  Actually its probably more like 2.5X the potential as the added mechanics have better flexibility to work with core mechanics (eg size tricks).

All of the quotes were taken from different individuals in the community.  I hope you can appreciate this and I hope that I have enlightened some of you.  Those who wish to disprove me are welcome, yet also I encourage you to follow me on my wiki.  I have some great ideas for our game, and I am only getting started.  This synthetist is just a tick compared to the real juggernaut that is man's imagination.

Cheers,


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## gamerprinter (Mar 7, 2012)

Eh, I'm still not even interesting in playing any kind of Summoner, and I love PF classes. The arguments for and against doesn't convince nor compel me to want to play the Summoner. Also as a GM, I love creating new or enhanced monsters, though I can add Eidolon capabilities for monster design - I'm not even interested in that. I love purely Bestiary styled monster design.

I even do this professionally and see not compelling reason to want to design monsters using Eidolons. Its not 'badwrongfun', but I don't see why anyone would want to, IMO.


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## concerro (Mar 7, 2012)

1. It is poorly written because of the rules exceptions. As for exploits if a GM stick to Pathfinder material and makes sure it is built correctly there should not be issues. *Every time* someone says a summoner is broken, and they post a build mistakes are found and it is made to be manageable again. 




> 2) It is not suited for a points-buy game as players can tank their ability scores to achieve all around epic-like scores.



I do not like the way that works admittedly, but I do think there is some exaggeration. 



> 3) It is a be-all character that is 100% self-sufficient and therefor obsoletes the party:



Not true at all. It can buff or fight, not buff and fight which a regular summoner or bard can do. It does not do utility as well as a caster, not remove status effects. It can not be the knowledge guy, and skills based guy. Bard can do this also. The only thing the synthesis has on  bard is that it fighters better, and not even the bard is really self-sufficient. 


> > 4) It adds new mechanics that allow a doubling-effect to hit points,  free added CMB/CMD bonus due to size and strength, increase BAB  practically free wherby other classes need to invest feats and magic  items and thus is a superior tank and obsoletes the fighters.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It is common for people to say an entire party can get access to fly if they want it. It is also common in practice. A wilderness encounter should also have cover from the trees so there won't be many large scale wilderness battles unless plains are also included. In that case if the synthesis gets to far ahead he gets jumped by the bad guys so he really has to wait for the party. One can say he can take on the baddies all on his own, but since he is melee oriented he can do this no better than a fighter or barbarian or ranger. The synthesis just happens to have more hp. Focusing fire can take care of that. 



> 7) With 40 evolutions it can make itself into any monster and is the  perfect remix to how to make your own creature.  For me D&D has gone  from me being a GM to me pitting my piddly forces in a perpetual boss  battle.  Thus with its added new evolutions mechanics obsoletes  beastiary CR.



Exaggeration for dramatic effect.



> 8) Should be made optional for advance play only as this character can  easily overshadow *any inexperienced players and can put off new players  and possibly collapse the GM.  We lost a player on his first session  due to gross exposure of the synthesist (all night long) XXX



A lot of things can overshadow an inexperienced player or collapse a GM. That is not summoner/synthesis specific.


> 9) Once something is broken it is easier to make more broken.  A chip in  your windshield will spider crack and may eventually impair your  vision.



Most people can handle it, so I don't see it as broken.



> 10) The Eidolon mechanic abuses stacking limitations by creating a super  armour over the wizard.  Ii is a great irony that the original wizard  is forbidden to wear metal armour but in the end we have they synthesist  whom can protect himself in a suit of the Emperors finest.



The summoner is not a wizard, and miss chance is more effective than AC so the wizard is still ahead. Since the summoner does not have the wizard's utility or even the bard's that was a false characterization.


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## joah_from_Alberta (Mar 7, 2012)

Here is an example build of level 10 synthesist provided by Thalin from Paizo forums.  


> Target CMD / tripping?  Really?  Level 10 Str 30 large-sized  quadruped, and you're going to try to trip?  Also, my favorite Synths  are dwarves (you have build points to spare so Cha 14 or even 16 is no  big deal; meanwhile it shores up any "saves" weakness").
> Here, let's build out.  Criticize the build, aside from "min-max" cheese (this is an attempt to prove overpowered).  15 points
> Level 10 Dwarven Synthesist (Quadraped):
> Str: 7 (30) - -4
> ...




If we use my basic melee formula (which does not account for complex melee feats) we get:

BAB*5= 33(5)= 165
#of attack*5= 5(5)= 25
max damage (non crit)= 43
max hit points= 97+92= 191
base speed= (don't know for sure so prob 40)= 40
AC*5= 38(5)= 190 (ouch)

So the basic melee score is 614 and we have a winner!

It is funny to notice that the addition of 3rd party to my level 9 synthesist puts the score at 580.


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## hazardjsimpson (Mar 7, 2012)

joah_from_Alberta said:


> 8) Should be made optional for advance play only as this character can easily overshadow *any inexperienced players and can put off new players and possibly collapse the GM.  We lost a player on his first session due to gross exposure of the synthesist (all night long) XXX




How funny. As a looooong time GM and player, here's what I take from this.

As a GM, you didn't check the character PRIOR to allowing it in your game. Your bad.

You apparently ignored that the class is in the ADVANCED PLAYERS GUIDE (not Core Book) and on top of that, is applying an Archetype template. Your bad as a GM again, especially since you make a point about it needing to be an ADVANCED class. (Your point above.) I fail to see how this is anyone's fault but yours as the GM for not knowing this ahead of time.

There are also some funny mechanics here. Some of the feats you referenced in your first post are obviously third-party, which means again as a GM, you haven't been proofing what you allow in your game. That's your bad again.

You aren't handling the class correctly. First point: they don't use stacked hit points.

--"The synthesist gains the eidolon's hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is sent back to its home plane."

So once the Eidolon goes bye-bye, then what? You have a crunchy caster again, with less casting power than a Wiz or Sorcerer. This is NOT the same as  stacking hit points, and should not be handled like it is.

Second, losing the Eidolon. The fused Eidolon still goes away when the Synthesist sleeps, is KO'd, etc. So there's that to consider. (everyone has to sleep,  ) There's a level 7 Summoner in my group that I GM for, and guess what? I single blowdart with a DC20 poison save knocked him and his Eidolon right off the board.

I'd also like to point this out: "The eidolon has no skills or feats of its own." - This is unique to the Synthesist Archetype.  So that means your Eidolon doesn't get all those fun extra feats of its own, so where is your player getting those? If he chooses feats for himself OR his Eidolon, those are static. They don't change via Evolution (unless I missed an ability in my reading somewhere)

Then there's the fact that the Eidolon is still exposed to things like Banish: "Spells such as banishment or dismissal work normally on the eidolon, but the synthesist is unaffected. "

So now how awesome is the flying Synthesist when his Eidolon gets banished mid-flight?  Not very.

All in all, I'd say that there are class balance/imbalance issues everywhere if you look hard enough. The trick is finding them BEFORE you allow them into your game willy-nilly. It's unfortunate when a player has to pay the price for a mistake that the GM made. (Or a series of them.)

And finally, really? This is a game of IMAGINATION. (cue rainbow here) If you can't think your way around a lone min-maxer in your party,that's sad for someone who's been playing since '77.


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## concerro (Mar 7, 2012)

joah_from_Alberta said:


> Here is an example build of level 10 synthesist provided by Thalin from Paizo forums.
> 
> 
> If we use my basic melee formula (which does not account for complex melee feats) we get:
> ...



That look good in theory but it assumes mage armor will be cast. A 24 AC can be hit by a CR 10 monster. 
The other issue is that large and bigger "pets" often run into space issues in closed areas like dungeons.  Reduce person will have to be used
Those attacks are not spelled out. I have no way of knowing if the OP did not make an error. 

A regular summoner eidolon can get the same numbers, and still cast spells.

The only thing that changes is hit points *if* the summoner gets too far away. 

Your formula is also not as accurate as the DPR forumla which takes a lot more things into account. That is why people are not giving it credit.

People also will not use 3pp material as a proof of brokeness since that is basically a house rule to allow it. 

If the other poster puts the complete build up then he might get some credit.


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## concerro (Mar 7, 2012)

The posted synthesis build just had its number ran according to the DPR forumla. It was beaten by the barbarian, paladin, ranger, alchemist, and druid. 

 Here is a link.


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## joah_from_Alberta (Mar 8, 2012)

Oh my, what a surprise, you are all right and I am mistaken.  Guess what, we had a breakthrough today.  Rather than to metagame with sleep darts we are going to learn how to maintain a balance and be more wary with the materials provided.  I refuse to be demoralized by such nitpicks who have nothing to contribute other than insults, condescension and criticism.  Rather I will think about how by this I have developed our group as today we thought of how to create an actual planar wheel of fortune made of wood and that can be hanged on our wall and spun (like on the price is right).  Also how we are going to redevelop psionics based upon the works of hyperconcience and magic the gathering.  I will not be swayed by your pedantry, rather I thank you for this opportunity to share my thoughts with you.  I will confide that I don't care how you feel for if you don't mind and if it's okay with you, I feel great.  

As a token of my appreciation, I leave you with this pleasant discovery http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/06/us-titanic-moon-idUSTRE8251LC20120306

Cheers,


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## Piratecat (Mar 8, 2012)

*Okay, folks, stop. Now.

Everyone - and I mean everyone, not just Joah - needs to go read my two moderator warnings above. It is just fine if people don't have opinions that match your own. That's what makes a discussion interesting. It does not mean that anyone can sink to personal attacks, passive aggressive snarkiness, or rudeness. It's okay if people don't agree with you. Try to prove them wrong with examples, but don't bicker and don't take it personally.

If this is in the least bit unclear to anyone, PM me.*


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## joah_from_Alberta (Mar 8, 2012)

Actually, good can be had from bad.  It is interesting how strongly men can stand to prove that they are right.  It is not bad, and I am blessed that things do make me sad and that my heart quickly turns to things that make me feel right.  The important thing is to respect one another's opinions and if you learn to be humble you can see much more from the rear than when you are always at the front.

I know why now the synthesist is broken, and I realise now how much more important it is to recognise those broken elements as a group so that we can better learn to play as a group.  As a GM I have many responsibilities, and as the saying goes to teach a man to fish will keep our group well fed for many sessions to come.

Cheers,


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## Piratecat (Mar 8, 2012)

And for better or worse, since the original poster seems to have finished up with a (fairly controversial) thread, I think I'll swing this closed.

If anyone else wants to start up a thread on the same topic, please give it a week or so before you do.


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