# "Alternate" half orc backstories.



## Kahuna Burger (Jan 8, 2008)

In a 4e forum thread on the (temporary?) elimination of half orcs in the new edition, there was a lot of focus on the assumption that all half orcs are conceived in rape and what I saw as a false dichotomy that the other option was completely civilized and integrated orcs who Farmer Bob was pleased as punch to see "dating" his daughters.

IMO, the 3e conception of orcs leaves plenty of room for a middle ground. So, bearing in mind the MM standard of tribal groups who are "often chaotic evil" and have barbarian as a favored class, and often exist near human barbarian tribes, what kind of backstories can you see for half orcs in a vanilla D&D campaign? To start out with the stereotypes and move from there....

1) Rape of a human by an orc
2) Rape of an orc by a human
3) Relationship between two half orcs or a half orc and a human or orc.
4) Arranged 'marriages' as a sign of truce between orc and human barbarian tribes.

(I've got more to add later, but I want to get the ball rolling.)


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## FickleGM (Jan 8, 2008)

5) King-Kong syndrome, but this Kong (an orc) isn't too big for a relationship...a non-evil orc saves the damsel from the atrocities of his people and they go on to make some babies.


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## Rechan (Jan 8, 2008)

6) The Frontier. Shortage of women + Needing strong backs + Orc females appreciating non-abusive mates = Male humans and female orc marriages.

7) Orcs as second-class citizens in more industrial nations. They do hard labor, live in slums, etc. These "City orcs", while still degenerate and not good, have more in common with their poor human neighbors than the humans do with the other classes.


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## FickleGM (Jan 8, 2008)

8) The enemy of my enemy is my friend.  War against a common enemy throws orcs and humans together...some mate.


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## Rechan (Jan 8, 2008)

9) Child from union between orc minions and evil Cleric/Wizard/Whatever using the orcs as muscle.

10) "Orc Groupies". Orcs are more viril, have more endurance, and "larger attributes". Assuming you can find one that won't bash your head in afterwards, the desperate and/or curious can find enjoyment.


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## FickleGM (Jan 8, 2008)

11) The Children of Love.  Inspired by a 2nd Edition Deck of Encounters card, in which a group of orcs where actually pacifists on a pilgrimage...The Children of Love, a cult/commune/religion/etc., allows all races into its fold.  They teach love and to look beyond prejudices and race and physical beauty and such...humans and orcs make with the teachings of their leader.


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## Rechan (Jan 8, 2008)

12) Orc on the wrong end of a Baleful Polymorph into a human*.

*Since Half-dragons happen when dragons polymorph into human (or whatever) form, I can reason that a species transformed into something else still has the Essence of what it is in it. And that translates down the magic of bloodlines.


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## Kahuna Burger (Jan 8, 2008)

FickleGM said:
			
		

> 8) The enemy of my enemy is my friend.  War against a common enemy throws orcs and humans together...some mate.



Note that this doesn't have to be "romance" either - if one group brings its camp followers and the other doesn't, I can't see either side turning their noses up.


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## kenobi65 (Jan 8, 2008)

13) Orphan from one race raised by parents of the other race, and feeling more comfortable in the society of his adoptive parents, he/she chooses a mate from that race.

Worf of Star Trek is an example of this; while he occasionally dealt with the Klingons, he was a Starfleet officer, and his second wife (Jadzia Dax) was a human (well, technically, a Trill, but a lot closer to human than Klingon).


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## Rechan (Jan 8, 2008)

kenobi65 said:
			
		

> 13) Orphan from one race raised by parents of the other race, and feeling more comfortable in the society of his adoptive parents, he/she chooses a mate from that race.



This works great if your party kills all the orcs and then dumps the baby orcs in Happytown's orphanage.


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## kenobi65 (Jan 8, 2008)

Rechan said:
			
		

> This works great if your party kills all the orcs and then dumps the baby orcs in Happytown's orphanage.




Indeed.  One group I used to play in had a DM who would always put the moral dilemma in of "what to do with the children", and the group usually held that it would be evil to kill orc babies (since you're depriving them of the chance to grow up "good").  Usually, they'd leave the "women" alive, as well, so they weren't quite orphans.


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## Stoat (Jan 8, 2008)

14)  Saruman creates half-orcs in large numbers to serve as infiltrators, spies, or sun-tolerant skirmishers.  The process of creation may involve a biological breeding program, or it may be an epic-strength magic ritual.  The resulting beings breed true.


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## Rechan (Jan 8, 2008)

kenobi65 said:
			
		

> Indeed.  One group I used to play in had a DM who would always put the moral dilemma in of "what to do with the children", and the group usually held that it would be evil to kill orc babies (since you're depriving them of the chance to grow up "good").  Usually, they'd leave the "women" alive, as well, so they weren't quite orphans.



Never did understand why the females didn't fight. Especially against invaders coming in for wholesale slaughter.

But then, if my players left the women and children alive in the middle of the devastation, I would have something (like oh, an evil cleric, or some other intelligent monster) sweep in and convert them all as cultists/food/bodyguards.


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## Kahuna Burger (Jan 8, 2008)

15) The "honorary orc". Banished human withstands the initiation rites of an orc tribe and in henceforth a member with the right to take a mate.

16) The abandoned child. The half orc was found exposed as an infant, a tradition common to both local orc and human tribes if the child was in any way deformed or "weak" seeming. Conception details are unknown and mostly irrelevant to the character who is simply happy to have been rescued from the action of "his" people.


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## Set (Jan 8, 2008)

17) The Scarred Lands setting has Half-Orcs breeding true with other Half-Orcs, and several countries being heavily populated with half-orcs, fully integrated into the society and more common than Dwarves, Elves or Halflings.  They make popular mercenaries and are a common sight in the militaries of many countries.


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## SlagMortar (Jan 8, 2008)

18) At a battle between orcs and humans in a harsh climate, an orc and human of opposite gender are each wounded and left for dead.  While initially wary, it quickly becomes apparent they will only survive by helping each other.  Reliance leads to respect and companionship ...


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## Kahuna Burger (Jan 8, 2008)

Rechan said:
			
		

> Never did understand why the females didn't fight. Especially against invaders coming in for wholesale slaughter.



(continued tangent) in a recent game, when my gladiator character was informed that there were "women and children" left in the trogledyte lair, her response was "I'm a woman and I learned to fight as a child, so what's your point?"   

I've always hated the phrase "women and children" and would prefer to hear about "children and elderly" or at least "mothers and children" implying the non combatant females are pregnant or nursing at the time. (though in many "traditional" cultures, that doesn't imply the level of helplessness we often associate with it, either.)

(end tangent)


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## FickleGM (Jan 8, 2008)

SlagMortar said:
			
		

> 18) At a battle between orcs and humans in a harsh climate, an orc and human of opposite gender are each wounded and left for dead.  While initially wary, it quickly becomes apparent they will only survive by helping each other.  Reliance leads to respect and companionship ...




Enemy Mine, FTW!


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## Voadam (Jan 8, 2008)

Gray Orcs: Half-Orcs are actually not half-human but a weaker subrace of full orcs. 

Infection: Orcs are actually a corruptive mystical disease, a community of orcs near humans will infect a large surrounding area leading some humans born in the area to be infected and be half-orcs.

Caliban curse: A curse can be placed on people in the womb so they are born monstrous but slow and deformed pseudo orc-people.


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## cmrscorpio (Jan 8, 2008)

kenobi65 said:
			
		

> Indeed.  One group I used to play in had a DM who would always put the moral dilemma in of "what to do with the children", and the group usually held that it would be evil to kill orc babies (since you're depriving them of the chance to grow up "good").





I tried doing this with a group.  With the wrong group.  The paladin didn't even bother to cast _detect evil_ before the massacre of a whole tribe's worth of kobold babies ensued.  I made sure that it haunted the *players*, too.  I don't think I've ever been so descriptive as a DM as I was when I described the PCs actions.  After my descriptions, one of the players said to me "Dude, what's wrong with you?"


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## S'mon (Jan 8, 2008)

For half-orcs who survive to adulthood, conception by a human female slave of an orc tribe seems probably more likely than stranger rape.


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## S'mon (Jan 8, 2008)

Voadam said:
			
		

> Gray Orcs: Half-Orcs are actually not half-human but a weaker subrace of full orcs.




This is my favourite idea on this thread.  3e 'full' orcs are incredibly powerful with their +4 STR; the half-orc +2 STR stats are closer to 1e orcs.


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## Voadam (Jan 8, 2008)

S'mon said:
			
		

> This is my favourite idea on this thread.  3e 'full' orcs are incredibly powerful with their +4 STR; the half-orc +2 STR stats are closer to 1e orcs.




I Implemented that in my games a while ago, I prefer full races to half races and have enjoyed full orc pcs conceptually since shadowrun 1e and the 1e dragon magazine article on orc gods.


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## Klaus (Jan 8, 2008)

What should be the default option:

"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder".


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## Kahuna Burger (Jan 9, 2008)

Klaus said:
			
		

> What should be the default option:
> 
> "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder".



I disagree that there should be a default option - in fact that was the inspiration for this thread. But it's definitely a good option.


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## CanadienneBacon (Jan 9, 2008)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> 4) Arranged 'marriages' as a sign of truce between orc and human barbarian tribes.



That, right there, is a kickin' good idea!


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## Tessarael (Jan 9, 2008)

What about the Uruk-Hai of Middle Earth? An Orc-Human cross-breed bred for greater cunning and combat skills, but still feral and dangerous on the battle field. (I realize that is not the genesis of the Uruk-Hai, but something along these lines.)

[And I note this idea has been mentioned by Stoat and Set above.]


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## Arkhandus (Jan 9, 2008)

Cross-posting from another thread.....

Hrm. Maybe half-orcs could originate as humans who've been touched by the orcish deities, or orcs touched by the human deities?

Say, a human becomes the hero of an orcish tribe by chance, and the local shaman of Gruumsh blesses him in Gruumsh's name, making him an 'honorary orc' so to speak. The human is transformed and appears something like an orc, but still recognizably humanesque too. Ergo a half-orc.

As a half-orc, the blessed fellow can breed true with both humans and orcs, so his progeny would also be half-orcs (though after enough generations down the line, when breeding with pureblood humans or orcs, they'd just be orcs or humans as appropriate).

Similar situation: an orc orphan is adopted by humans, and the adoptive parents take him to be baptised in a church of Pelor. The holy water and baptism ceremony purges some of the orcish uglyness, savagery, and dull wits, granting the infant a more humanlike appearance and mentality, giving him at least a chance of being accepted into normal human society (and not just turning into a troublesome brute).


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## Jonny Nexus (Jan 9, 2008)

Can I cross-post the reply I made when this was discussed on CircvsMaximvs?

-----

But could you not imagine a human woman saying, "You know what? He's ugly, he smells, he's unreliable, he's got the interpersonal skills of a well-hefted housebrick, and he's inherently evil... but I really think I can change him!" ?


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## Nyaricus (Jan 9, 2008)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> 16) The abandoned child. The half orc was found exposed as an infant, a tradition common to both local orc and human tribes if the child was in any way deformed or "weak" seeming.



To expose on this, ala the Spartan practice of leaving sickly or deformed newborns exposed on Mount Taygetus: 

Humans would see the resulting half-breed as being deformed and therefor unfit for life. They would leave it exposed because of how ugly it looked.

Orcs would see the baby, smaller of frame and build in comparison to full-breed orcs, as being sickly and under-developed and would likely leave the child exposed for because of how weak it looked.

Just a thought.

cheers,
--N


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## Klaus (Jan 9, 2008)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> I disagree that there should be a default option - in fact that was the inspiration for this thread. But it's definitely a good option.



 IMO, it's the default because it's the simplest one. If you don't say anything else on the matter, the default is to assume your parents got together in spite of their differences.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jan 9, 2008)

Artificial insemination.


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## Rechan (Jan 9, 2008)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> Artificial insemination.



To expand on this...

One of the origins of the Succubus was to explain Nocturnal Emissions. Men would have wet dreams and it was blamed on a succubus. The semen was said to be captured by the succubus, then handed over to an Incubus, who would impregnate a human woman with the stolen seed.

So I could see a hag and/or succubus seducing people of prominence, stealing the seed, and impregnating orc women, so that the people of prominence have their bloodline mixed with _orcs_. It's a great way to have a scandal.


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## Turanil (Jan 9, 2008)

20) Half-orc's mother was totally drunk when she did choose a mate during a boring night in the low-quarters of the city...

More seriously, my preference goes to half-orcs being their own race, either of sub-orcs, or better a Neanderthal type ("wendols"). Being born from two humans but having been affected by a magical curse, or being a mutant orc more evolved than his brethren, also works well where I am concerned. 

BTW: next half-race I would like to have alternate explanations for, is the half-elf...


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## cmrscorpio (Jan 9, 2008)

Turanil said:
			
		

> 20) Half-orc's mother was totally drunk when she did choose a mate during a boring night in the low-quarters of the city...





Heh, you reminded me of a half-orc bard I played a few years ago.


[backstory]Once upon a time there was a man who liked to drink. We’re not talking about having a pint every now and then with the guys. This man drank ALL the time. He would wake up in the morning and drink. He would eat his breakfast and drink. He would walk down the street and drink… I think you get the picture. 

Well, one day when this man was much more inebriated that usual (and that is saying a lot), he had the misfortune of meeting up with an orcish woman who had just broken up with her mate. Through his beer-goggles, though, the man thought the orc woman was a nymph (Just try and imagine how drunk one would have to be for that to happen. Scary, isn’t it?). Well, one year later when the man finally sobered up enough to realize what had happened, he had an orcish wife in bed with him and a half-orc son lying in a crib at the foot of the bed. At that moment, the man let out the shrillest, most high-pitched scream any living being has ever heard. This scream was so high and loud that it rendered the baby totally and irreparably deaf... [/backstory]


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## Kahuna Burger (Jan 9, 2008)

Rechan said:
			
		

> To expand on this...
> 
> One of the origins of the Succubus was to explain Nocturnal Emissions. Men would have wet dreams and it was blamed on a succubus. The semen was said to be captured by the succubus, then handed over to an Incubus, who would impregnate a human woman with the stolen seed.



or, in some versions, the succubus and incubus were the same creature, able to take seed in one form and then implant it in the other. With their shapeshifting ability, suc/incubus breeding programs are an interesting backstory for a (3rd ed) teifling, not a half feind but definitely marked by the method of conception.


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## prosfilaes (Jan 9, 2008)

Klaus said:
			
		

> IMO, it's the default because it's the simplest one. If you don't say anything else on the matter, the default is to assume your parents got together in spite of their differences.




Why? Depending on the world, peaceful matings between humans and orcs could be massively unlikely. I don't see it happening in Middle Earth, or any other setting where the orcs are really monstrous. To take a real-life example, I would suspect that very few of the interracial children in antebellum South were romantic meetings; I suspect the most common thing was that one partner accepted because it wasn't in their best interest to object.

If you don't say anything, then you don't say anything. As a DM, I wouldn't assume any default, and if I cared, I'd push for more background. And if you didn't care, I'd make up whatever worked well in the story. ("Oh, yes, now your mother is the owner of Smeg's Brothel and Bar. But don't worry, she threw you to the orphanage when you were a child. Your father...well, that might explain why you're getting these odd notes about your heritage and everytime you talk to anyone who seems to know anything, they either try to kill you or get killed." or "Your parents loved each other very much. Unfortunately, they loved Tharzadun more and Sir Carlof here had to kill them. He wanted to kill you but his order wouldn't allow it. Oh, and now he's the advisor to the king that you're trying to warn...")


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## Klaus (Jan 9, 2008)

"Depending on the world" _is_ saying something on the matter.

All I'm saying is that if it's never asked and never comes up during the game, the default shouldn't be "rape", if we want to broaden up the scope, but rather "unlikely couple got together".


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## roguerouge (Jan 9, 2008)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> (continued tangent) in a recent game, when my gladiator character was informed that there were "women and children" left in the trogledyte lair, her response was "I'm a woman and I learned to fight as a child, so what's your point?"
> 
> I've always hated the phrase "women and children" and would prefer to hear about "children and elderly" or at least "mothers and children" implying the non combatant females are pregnant or nursing at the time. (though in many "traditional" cultures, that doesn't imply the level of helplessness we often associate with it, either.)
> 
> (end tangent)




QFT


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## roguerouge (Jan 9, 2008)

*Hey--it works for the owlbear!*

21. The iconic DnD explanation: A wizard's experiment gone awry.


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## Aeolius (Jan 9, 2008)

22) Galley-Oh-Hoop-Hoop  (more info on the GOHH here )


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## prosfilaes (Jan 9, 2008)

Klaus said:
			
		

> "Depending on the world" _is_ saying something on the matter.
> 
> All I'm saying is that if it's never asked and never comes up during the game, the default shouldn't be "rape", if we want to broaden up the scope, but rather "unlikely couple got together".




If it doesn't come up in the game, then it doesn't matter. Why do we need a default at all, especially one that doesn't depend on the world?


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## kenobi65 (Jan 9, 2008)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> I've always hated the phrase "women and children" and would prefer to hear about "children and elderly" or at least "mothers and children" implying the non combatant females are pregnant or nursing at the time.




Fair enough.  I'd only note that the group of which I spoke (who'd played together for many years before I joined) was all-male, and definitely had a "guy's-club-no-girls-allowed" vibe to it.  Despite it being around 2001 or so at that time, they mostly had attitudes that would have fit in far better in the 1960s or 1970s, when it came to that sort of thing.

The first thing I did to rock their world when I joined was to play a butt-kicking female PC (none of them would even *consider* doing something like that).


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## orsal (Jan 9, 2008)

One possibility for half-races that I think is underused in D&D is that of a metis society. Several generations ago circumstances brought together populations of two different races; the result is that a single tribe was formed in which their gene pools mixed. Members of that tribe therefore have the biological characteristics of half-breeds, and may even be recognized as half-breeds in other societies, but not in the context of their own tribe.


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## SlagMortar (Jan 9, 2008)

> But could you not imagine a human woman saying, "You know what? He's ugly, he smells, he's unreliable, he's got the interpersonal skills of a well-hefted housebrick, and he's inherently evil... but I really think I can change him!" ?



I believe you've just written the plot of _The Simpsons_ or nearly every family sitcom for the last 10 (20? 30?) years, except maybe for the "inherently evil" part.


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## haakon1 (Jan 9, 2008)

For my two half-orc PC's:
-- Orphan raised by a religious order in the capital city.  Became a cleric/fighter of a lawful good god, always wanted to be a paladin, but "never had what it took" to get that particular calling.

-- Son of an orc female and an allied human bandit, raised as an orcish infiltrator scout, and master of the orcish martial arts.  That is, an assassin in 1e.

In general, I've played half-orcs as being marginalized folk who live in the slums outside the city walls, in their own self-sustaining community.  Basically, I play them as a put upon minority.  New ones are minted in different scenarios, including the frontier rape idea, and they are generally frowned open in small towns, but in the slums of big cities, they can find hard labor and make a living.

I like the metis idea.  That puts into words they way I view them as a self-sustaining community.

It's also interesting that a meti community could act as go-betweens between the two different societies -- if there is trade or a truce between humans and orcs, half-orcs would be the ones to broker it.  And if either side needs spies . . .


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## Piratecat (Jan 9, 2008)

prosfilaes said:
			
		

> To take a real-life example, I would suspect that very few of the interracial children in antebellum South were romantic meetings; I suspect the most common thing was that one partner accepted because it wasn't in their best interest to object.



This board isn't the place to discuss real-life incidents of rape. Please keep discussion on the basis of fantasy, not the real world.

Thank you.


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## Desdichado (Jan 9, 2008)

Maybe I'm unusual, but I always thought the depiction of orcs in 3e was much more brutish and gorilla-like than I imagined.  I imagine orcs as being sufficiently different and exotic yet sufficiently similar that theoretically physical attraction across the species isn't so hard to imagine.

More like greenish and tusked Neanderthals, I guess.  Klaus' default orc and half-orc artwork is pretty close to what I pictured too.


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## S'mon (Jan 9, 2008)

I guess it's because my vision of 'orc' is irrevocably the pig-headed guy in the 1e Monster Manual that I have trouble envisioning romantic attraction to the critters.  

BTW slightly OT, the 1983 movie Deathstalker has a warrior orc (not referred to as such, but the spitting image of the 1e orc) who takes part in an evil  wizard's tournament and attempts to rape a captive princess.


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## Desdichado (Jan 9, 2008)

S'mon said:
			
		

> I guess it's because my vision of 'orc' is irrevocably the pig-headed guy in the 1e Monster Manual that I have trouble envisioning romantic attraction to the critters.



My vision of orcs came from Tolkien and (perhaps not surprisingly) I think Peter Jackson's outfit came a lot closer than Erol Otis, or whomever it was who did the old 1e MM illustration.  I always kinda ignored the 'pig-headed' description.

So; imagine Jackons LotR orcs, give them a little variety beyond merely slavering barbarian horde for culture, and you have a race that potentially could have some very handsome devils and exotic beautiful sirens.  And when you've got slavering barbarian horde human cultures, you don't even need to give the orcs variety; they can think they're sexy already.


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## S'mon (Jan 9, 2008)

Hobo said:
			
		

> My vision of orcs came from Tolkien and (perhaps not surprisingly) I think Peter Jackson's outfit came a lot closer than Erol Otis, or whomever it was who did the old 1e MM illustration.  I always kinda ignored the 'pig-headed' description.




I agree the Peter Jackson versions are closer (though Boromir was killed by regular orcs, not Uruk-Hai super-orc!) but the 1e version is rather evocative of the monsters in William ope Hogdson's House on the Borderlands, which is kinda cool.  Funny thing though is that 3e orcs are _still_ pig-snouted, essentially, not nosed.

I guess my overall take on orcs is that I like them to be nasty and monstrous.  Having them be the romantic partners of non-insane, non-coerced humans seriously detracts from their mystique.


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## S'mon (Jan 9, 2008)

Hobo said:
			
		

> My vision of orcs came from Tolkien and (perhaps not surprisingly) I think Peter Jackson's outfit came a lot closer than Erol Otis, or whomever it was who did the old 1e MM illustration.  I always kinda ignored the 'pig-headed' description.




A 1e MM illuatrated by Otus would have been awesome (I got a 1st print DDG off Ebay recently, the Otus illustrations of the Cthulu mythos, cover, frontispiece etc are fantastic IMO) but AFAIK he wasn't involved in the 1e MM.


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## Klaus (Jan 9, 2008)

Hobo said:
			
		

> My vision of orcs came from Tolkien and (perhaps not surprisingly) I think Peter Jackson's outfit came a lot closer than Erol Otis, or whomever it was who did the old 1e MM illustration.  I always kinda ignored the 'pig-headed' description.
> 
> So; imagine Jackons LotR orcs, give them a little variety beyond merely slavering barbarian horde for culture, and you have a race that potentially could have some very handsome devils and exotic beautiful sirens.  And when you've got slavering barbarian horde human cultures, you don't even need to give the orcs variety; they can think they're sexy already.



 Yeah, I think if a Charisma 3 human can get some action, a Charisma 14 orc also can.


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## phindar (Jan 10, 2008)

Yeah, ugly people get action all the time, and the heart wants what it wants.  

I play a lot of half-orcs, and I always have.  If they're excluded from 4e (much like they were from 2e, and I haven't really been following along), I imagine they'll be houseruled and grandfathered in to a lot of games.  (I played a lot of half-orcs in 2e, even before the Humanoids Handbook came out.)

The only half-orc I ever played that was a product of rape was one called Grimm, who's mother was a powerful orc warrior who raped a half-elf in the middle of a battle.  (That always stands out to me because I made it up more-or-less on the spot when my character was being introduced to someone, and it was worth it for the table of gamers who stared dumbfounded when they heard it.  Of course, this was a much more innocent time in gaming.)  

Being a half-orc informed some aspect of the character history, because the character was seen as a monster by most goodly races.  I had a tendency to play atypical half-orcs. whether they were ones that rejected the orcish stereotype or were unaware of it-- like my underdark pit fighter who being from the underdark considered himself one of the least monstrous things around.  Being almost human in the underdark is a significant step up from the various races of spider humanoids, fishpeople, deepspawns and gigantic psionic catfish.  

One of my favorite quotes about this comes from the 5th Season of Buffy, when Buffy asks Spike to protect Dawn.  He says he will because, _I may be a monster, but you've always treated me like a man._


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## roguerouge (Jan 10, 2008)

phindar said:
			
		

> One of my favorite quotes about this comes from the 5th Season of Buffy, when Buffy asks Spike to protect Dawn.  He says he will because, _I may be a monster, but you've always treated me like a man._




QFT. The best possible example to use.... Of course, James Marsters is quite a bit hotter than any of the half-orcs that I've seen illustrated. (But then, if gamers don't mind the horns on the scantily-clad tieflings, I guess the same goes for the tusks of the orc-blooded.


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## haakon1 (Jan 10, 2008)

One idea I've always had is about the "fantasy genetics" of humans, elves, and orcs.

Humans and elves can breed.  Either they are the same species, or closely related within the same genus (like dogs/wolves/coyotes).

Humans and orcs can breed.  Ditto.

Elves and orcs cannot interbreed.  Same genus, but too far apart.  Elves are foxes, orcs are wolves, and humans are dogs or coyotes that can breed with both.

In the various description of sahuagin, I remember that some are mutants who look at lot like aquatic elves, which led me to decide sahuagin are a branch or breed of the elvish tree.

So, anyhow, perhaps half-orcs are sometimes like the mutant sahuagin -- throwbacks where the orc trait inherent in a lot of humans becomes more pronounced.  If these folks are shunned by society and isolated, they could breed with each other and likely "breed true" until a population of similar folk was formed.

Definitely a variant on the usual stories, but an interesting one to add to the mix, I think.


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## Aeolius (Jan 10, 2008)

haakon1 said:
			
		

> In the various description of sahuagin, I remember that some are mutants who look at lot like aquatic elves, which led me to decide sahuagin are a branch or breed of the elvish tree.




In the 1e MM, it hinted that sahuagin were somehow related to sea elves and drow.


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## CruelSummerLord (Jan 10, 2008)

23) One plot I have in my Living Greyhawk Gazetteer Addendum has the current ruler of Ull, Bruzharag the Misbegotten being conceived as an instrument of vengeance.  

Draske, the original Orakhan of Ull, murdered his brother, who he saw as a threat to his power.  Big mistake: He earned the eternal hatred of his brother's young bride, who loved her husband passionately.  She fled to the mountains, where she found sanctuary with her husband's ogre allies.  She noticed the sheer strength and fighting skill of the ogre chief, and a plan came to mind...

Many years later, Draske was slain in mortal combat by Bruzharag, the half-ogre son of Draske's former sister-in-law and the massive ogre chieftain who gave her shelter.  Bruzharag then seized the throne and set himself up as the new orakhan, giving his mother a prime seat of power as his chief advisor, even as his father is honored by being the ogre leader to receive his royal favor above and beyond all the other ogres in Ulsprue.  

Now, this occurred with an ogre rather than an orc as the father, but you could just as easily substitute a really big, really powerful orc to serve as the father.  

24) Another case might be a barbarian tribe who is closely allied with an orc tribe.  Together, they've proven victorious time and again against any enemy stupid or unlucky enough to cross them.  

The intermingling between races has become something more-each race admires the other's physical strength and fighting prowess, and men from both races are taking brides from the other.  The half-orc children that arise from this marriage are frightening warriors in combat, renowned for their physical strength and combining the drive and passion of the humans with the savagery and fierceness of the orcs.  

In neither case is there any rape-the parents get together either to further their own power, or simply out of a mutual respect and admiration born of the deeds they've accomplished together.


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## Slife (Jan 10, 2008)

Klaus said:
			
		

> Yeah, I think if a Charisma 3 human can get some action, a Charisma 14 orc also can.



That implies that the higher the charisma, the more half-breeds, correct?

Explains all the half-dragons.


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## The Ubbergeek (Jan 10, 2008)

Magic. they take human shapes... and so probably can make their look as they wish. With the aura of specialness that must be around them, they are probably... strangely fascinating, even very attractive if they wish.


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## Klaus (Jan 11, 2008)

Slife said:
			
		

> That implies that the higher the charisma, the more half-breeds, correct?
> 
> Explains all the half-dragons.



 Don't hate the playa, hate the game!


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## cthulhu_duck (Jan 11, 2008)

This is what I did with my homebrew campaign -

Orcbloods: As with tieflings, aasimar, elfbloods and other mixed blood races, orcbloods are those born to either human or orc parents, where their ancestry includes the other race.

E.g. Great, great, great, grandmother had a half orc child. Origins unknown.  Every now and again, her mostly human descendants have a child where some of the Orc genetics rises to the surface, resulting in an orcblood child.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jan 11, 2008)

haakon1 said:
			
		

> One idea I've always had is about the "fantasy genetics" of humans, elves, and orcs.
> 
> Humans and elves can breed.  Either they are the same species, or closely related within the same genus (like dogs/wolves/coyotes).
> 
> ...




And half-dragons?


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## Klaus (Jan 11, 2008)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> And half-dragons?



 As Freddie would say:

"It's a kind of magic!"


Also, the elves <-> humans <-> orcs relation was explored in the Magical Medieval Society World Building book.


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## haakon1 (Jan 11, 2008)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> And half-dragons?




I don't have any half-dragons in my campaign for two reasons:
1) It makes no sense to me in my human-elf-orc genetics idea, which seems to be a bit like the guy with the orcblood/elfblood ideas.
2) It doesn't do anything for me mythologically or coolness-wise, and it doesn't fit my game.  It seems "gamey" rather than a natural fit for my view of the D&D world, which is Greyhawk with a minor in Tolkien and a minor in my being a history/poli sci double major.  Fantasy is cool, but it needs to be fantasy that works within its own logical constraints.  Half-dragons are one step too far for me.

I also don't have half-ogres, though I'd use uruk-hai if I had good stats for them and story reason for them to be around.  Orogs (half-ogre/half-orc) might fit for uruk-hai.

I also don't have saurians, or any other lizard-humanoid types except the traditional -- lizardmen, trogs, bullywugs, and maybe a few more I've forgotten.

I do, however, have and like mongrelmen.  I don't have an explanation for them, but I suppose if someone researched it, I'd blame magic, which would make sense since the main place they occur in my campaign is in a Star Cairn, on a magic ley line in Greyhawk.


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## Aramax (Jan 12, 2008)

Jonny Nexus said:
			
		

> Can I cross-post the reply I made when this was discussed on CircvsMaximvs?
> 
> -----
> 
> But could you not imagine a human woman saying, "You know what? He's ugly, he smells, he's unreliable, he's got the interpersonal skills of a well-hefted housebrick, and he's inherently evil... but I really think I can change him!" ?



Finally,someone who understands women!Jonny is da man.


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## Slife (Jan 12, 2008)

haakon1 said:
			
		

> I don't have any half-dragons in my campaign for two reasons:
> 1) It makes no sense to me in my human-elf-orc genetics idea, which seems to be a bit like the guy with the orcblood/elfblood ideas.
> 2) It doesn't do anything for me mythologically or coolness-wise, and it doesn't fit my game.  It seems "gamey" rather than a natural fit for my view of the D&D world, which is Greyhawk with a minor in Tolkien and a minor in my being a history/poli sci double major.  Fantasy is cool, but it needs to be fantasy that works within its own logical constraints.  Half-dragons are one step too far for me.




My take is that half dragons started off as powerful creatures given power in the service of their draconic masters (or through some other similar means).  Drink the blood of a living dragon, gain some of its strength (special magical preparations needed, of course).  Since dragons are reclusive most of the time, and very concerned with self-preservation, they first send their people to talk to the other dragon's people when disputes arise or when they want to make deals.  One thing leads to another, next thing you know there's a whole subrace of half-dragons.  Of course, bloodlines can be diluted (the power isn't fully inherited from generation to generation), and some of the decendents have almost no ties to their "half-dragon" ancestors except a higher-than-normal magical affinity.


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## haakon1 (Jan 12, 2008)

Or half-dragons could just be kobolds with a can-do attitude.


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## green slime (Jan 12, 2008)

Immaculate Conception?!?

Who said the god in question had to be of the same race as the mother?


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## Slife (Jan 12, 2008)

haakon1 said:
			
		

> Or half-dragons could just be kobolds with a can-do attitude.



I thought that was dragonwrought kobolds...


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