# Power Attack + Critical?



## Arravis (Mar 31, 2005)

On a critical hit, is the added Power Attack damage multiplied? Is it considered part of "normal" weapon damage, as per the SRD:
_"Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied."_ 
Any advice on this would be appreciated, thanks guys!


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## Henry (Mar 31, 2005)

Yep - if you threaten a critical, you apply all the same modifiers (including penalty to hit for power attack) to the confirmation roll. If you successfully critical, ALL damage is multiplied, except actual extra damage DICE, such as sneak attack, the d6 from a flaming  weapon, etc.

First-level fighter, 13 STR, power-attacking for 2 points, single-handed with a longsword. the to-hit is +0 (+1 from BAB, +1 from STR, -2 from power attack) with 1d8+3 damage if I hit.

If I hit & roll a threaten while doing it (say a 19) then I have to confirm with another to-hit roll of +0. If I critical, then I deal 2d8+6. Take the risk, get the payoff.


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## Rystil Arden (Mar 31, 2005)

Arravis said:
			
		

> On a critical hit, is the added Power Attack damage multiplied? Is it considered part of "normal" weapon damage, as per the SRD:
> _"Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied."_
> Any advice on this would be appreciated, thanks guys!



 Its not a dice, hence it is indeed multiplied.  With a big multiplier and 3.5's new Power Atatck rules, you can see some heavy damage done this way.


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## scrubkai (Mar 31, 2005)

Henry said:
			
		

> First-level fighter, 13 STR, power-attacking for 2 points, single-handed with a longsword. the to-hit is +0 (+1 from BAB, +1 from STR, -2 from power attack) with 1d8+3 damage if I hit.




Wait per the SRD: the number you subtract from your To Hit to add to damage, "may not exceed your base attack bonus. "  Thus in the example above you can only use power attack for one point.

So I thought the numbers would have to be
First-level fighter, 13 STR, power-attacking for 1 point, single-handed with a longsword. the to-hit is +1 (+1 from BAB, +1 from STR, -1 from power attack) with 1d8+2 damage if I hit.
Or 2d8+4 damage on a critical.


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## Storminator (Mar 31, 2005)

scrubkai said:
			
		

> Wait per the SRD: the number you subtract from your To Hit to add to damage, "may not exceed your base attack bonus. " Thus in the example above you can only use power attack for one point.
> 
> So I thought the numbers would have to be
> First-level fighter, 13 STR, power-attacking for 1 point, single-handed with a longsword. the to-hit is +1 (+1 from BAB, +1 from STR, -1 from power attack) with 1d8+2 damage if I hit.
> Or 2d8+4 damage on a critical.




You are correct. Henry looked before he leaped.

PS


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## Philip (Mar 31, 2005)

As Rystil pointed out, the 'critical' word here is DICE.

Damage is a die = not multiplied on critical
Damage is not a die = multiplied on critical


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## Brain (Mar 31, 2005)

One of my DM's has an interesting way of looking at two-handed power attacks with criticals.  He says that since the amount you power attack has in effect been multiplied by two already (the -1 for +2 thing for two handed) then the multipliers are additive.  So a power attack for -1 would give +3 dmg on a crit instead of +4 (with a x2 weapon).

This may or may not be RAW, but I like the way it works.


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## Darkness (Mar 31, 2005)

scrubkai said:
			
		

> So I thought the numbers would have to be
> First-level fighter, 13 STR, power-attacking for 1 point, single-handed with a longsword. the to-hit is +1 (+1 from BAB, +1 from STR, -1 from power attack) with 1d8+2 damage if I hit.
> Or 2d8+4 damage on a critical.



I fondly remember:

First-level orc barbarian, 24 Str (20 +4 rage), power-attacking for 1 point, two-handed* with a greataxe. To hit: +7 (+1 BAB +7 Str, -1 PA), for 1d12+12* damage - 3d12+36* on a crit.
He rolled something like 12, 12, 10, slaughtering an 8 HD bearded devil.

(*That was in 3.0, so damage was actually slightly lower than the figures given above.)

Hm. He _might_ have been slightly higher-level than 1st...


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## Rystil Arden (Mar 31, 2005)

Darkness said:
			
		

> I fondly remember:
> 
> First-level orc barbarian, 24 Str (20 +4 rage), power-attacking for 1 point, two-handed* with a greataxe. To hit: +7 (+1 BAB +7 Str, -1 PA), for 1d12+12* damage - 3d12+36* on a crit.
> He rolled something like 12, 12, 10, slaughtering an 8 HD bearded devil.
> ...



 Fun stuff.  Reminds me of the 4th-level fighter cohort who killed a 3.0 balor in one round...evil outsiders died really fast; 3.0 was interesting that way


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## Henry (Mar 31, 2005)

Virtual "D'OH!" 

I started writing with a generic "+2 to damage", but added the example to be clear. Should've used a 2nd level fighter, but I wanted to keep it simple.


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## Henry (Mar 31, 2005)

Darkness said:
			
		

> He rolled something like 12, 12, 10, slaughtering an 8 HD bearded devil.
> 
> (*That was in 3.0, so damage was actually slightly lower than the figures given above.)
> 
> Hm. He _might_ have been slightly higher-level than 1st...




Two weeks ago, My mid-level fighter fought a cave troll. I combined a leap attack (Comp. Adv.), a power attack, and a charge, struck with my sword, scored a critical, and dealt 53 damage with the one attack. I was so proud.

Then the troll ripped me a new one and dealt about 74 right back, with no crits.


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## Insight (Mar 31, 2005)

Henry said:
			
		

> Two weeks ago, My mid-level fighter fought a cave troll. I combined a leap attack (Comp. Adv.), a power attack, and a charge, struck with my sword, scored a critical, and dealt 53 damage with the one attack. I was so proud.
> 
> Then the troll ripped me a new one and dealt about 74 right back, with no crits.




I have a new character with Leap Attack/Power Attack and I can't wait til I full PA+Leap Att and crit for the first time with my Dire Pick (x4 Crit) MUHAHAHAHA

4d8 (base) + 1d6 Flaming + 36 (+9 (2h) str x4) + 30 ((PA: BAB 5) x 6 I believe x3 + 3 for crit) = 4d8 + 1d6 + 66!


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## Philip (Mar 31, 2005)

Brain said:
			
		

> One of my DM's has an interesting way of looking at two-handed power attacks with criticals.  He says that since the amount you power attack has in effect been multiplied by two already (the -1 for +2 thing for two handed) then the multipliers are additive.  So a power attack for -1 would give +3 dmg on a crit instead of +4 (with a x2 weapon).
> 
> This may or may not be RAW, but I like the way it works.




It's not RAW, damage modifiers don't multiply on criticals, because damage is rolled separately and they are applied multiple times. 

And you don't multiply your damage bonus with the +2 for -1 thingie, you add +2 to damage for each -1 you take on your attack roll. It might yield the same result as multiplying by two, but that does not mean power attack with a 2-handed weapon is suddenly a case of multiplying damage.

It is an Interesting way to justify a house rule, though.


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## Insight (Mar 31, 2005)

I'm not sure I understand how adding +5 damage 3 times is different from adding 5x3 to the damage.  It is a multiplier, is it not?


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## Darkness (Mar 31, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Fun stuff.  Reminds me of the 4th-level fighter cohort who killed a 3.0 balor in one round...evil outsiders died really fast; 3.0 was interesting that way



 Yeah, hahaha.  WotC knew why they significantly raised the HD and Con scores of lots of demons and devils in 3.5.


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## the Jester (Mar 31, 2005)

Philip said:
			
		

> It's not RAW, damage modifiers don't multiply on criticals, because damage is rolled separately and they are applied multiple times.




I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here... when you crit, you certainly do multiply your mods.  If I attack with a +2 weapon and I have a +2 str bonus, if I crit with a weapon that does double damage on a crit, instead of +4 damage, I do +8 damage.



> And you don't multiply your damage bonus with the +2 for -1 thingie, you add +2 to damage for each -1 you take on your attack roll. It might yield the same result as multiplying by two, but that does not mean power attack with a 2-handed weapon is suddenly a case of multiplying damage.




This is interesting.  I am the dm in question, and I just looked up the text of Power Attack- it doesn't use the term 'mulitply' in any way.  Still, that's clearly what you're doing.  I could see an argument either way.

(For the record, I came to this conclusion when playing my Power Attacking pc in someone else's game.)


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## ThirdWizard (Mar 31, 2005)

the Jester said:
			
		

> This is interesting. I am the dm in question, and I just looked up the text of Power Attack- it doesn't use the term 'mulitply' in any way.




Yep. "Add twice the number." Since you're adding a number twice and not multiplying, then it doesn't use the multiplying stacking rules. It seems to be specifically worded this way so that it can be multiplied on a critical. That's how it works by RAW anyway.


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## Coredump (Apr 1, 2005)

the Jester said:
			
		

> I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here... when you crit, you certainly do multiply your mods.  If I attack with a +2 weapon and I have a +2 str bonus, if I crit with a weapon that does double damage on a crit, instead of +4 damage, I do +8 damage.




But thats just it. You *don't* 'multiply your mods'. You add them extra times.

Mathematiclly similar, mechanically very different.


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## pawned79 (Apr 3, 2005)

My friend and I were going over this. We think it is completely obvious that Power Attack is not considered "normal weapon damage" as required under Critical Hit in the PHB 3.5 p140. At level 1, it doesn’t make much of a difference, but we went ahead and ran some numbers for level 1 and level 5. They are included below. Just as a reminder, Power Attack doubles the damage on non-light weapons that are wielded with two hands. Also, remember two-handed weapons are strength-and-a-half. As you will see below, our consensuses is that Weapon Specialization is included as “normal weapon damage” because, at a minimum, it always included when you use this weapon. Once you become SO GOOD you consider this as normal. With that being said, you’ll see below, that we think that Power Attack is not “normal weapon damage” because it can be toggled in many ways. It isn’t your normal attack. It’s like an “attack option” that you choose to use sometimes. Anyway, here are the numbers...

Critical: Method 1
This method includes the power attack in the multiplication for critical hit.

Level 1 Human Fighter w/ 18 Strength
Weapon: Scythe (2d4 x4)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Scythe), Improved Critical, Power Attack
Power Attacking at -1 to hit, +2 to damage:
+1 BAB +4 STR +1 WF -1 PA = +5 TH
2d4 +6 STR +2 PA = 2d4+8 DMG
(2d4+8)x4 DMG = 8d4+32 DMG
(Minimum: 40 DMG, Average: 48 DMG, Maximum: 64 DMG)

Level 5 Human Fighter w/ 19 Strength
Weapon: Scythe (2d4 x4)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Scythe), Improved Critical, Power Attack, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Weapon Specialization (Scythe)
Power Attacking at -5 to hit, +10 to damage:
+5 BAB +4 STR +1 WF -5 PA = +5 TH
2d4 +2 WS +6 STR +10 PA = 2d4+18 DMG
(2d4+18)x4 DMG = 8d4+72 DMG
(Minimum: 80 DMG, Average: 88 DMG, Maximum: 104 DMG)

Critical: Method 2
This method excludes the power attack in the multiplication for critical hit.

Level 1 Human Fighter w/ 18 Strength
Weapon: Scythe (2d4 x4)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Scythe), Improved Critical, Power Attack
Power Attacking at -1 to hit, +2 to damage:
+1 BAB +4 STR +1 WF -1 PA = +5 TH
2d4 +6 STR + 2 PA = 2d4+8 DMG
((2d4+6)x4)+2 DMG = 8d4+26 DMG
(Minimum: 34 DMG, Average: 42 DMG, Maximum: 58 DMG)

Level 5 Human Fighter w/ 19 Strength
Weapon: Scythe (2d4 x4)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Scythe), Improved Critical, Power Attack, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Weapon Specialization (Scythe)
Power Attacking at -5 to hit, +10 to damage:
+5 BAB +4 STR +1 WF -5 PA = +5 TH
2d4 +2 WS +6 STR +10 PA = 2d4+18 DMG
((2d4+8)x4)+10 DMG = 8d4+42 DMG
(Minimum: 50 DMG, Average: 58 DMG, Maximum: 74 DMG)


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## pawned79 (Apr 3, 2005)

We were noting a pattern of the damage we presented in our post just a few moments ago. In our particular example the difference in damage between Method 1 and Method 2 is 6 points of damage per level. Note that the level 1 fighters differ by 6 points, and the level 5 fighters differ by 30 points. Following this up the level tree (assuming your new feats don’t make you any better, and your weapon and strength doesn’t change), you’ll keep going up by 6 points per level. At level 10, method 1 will give you 60 more damage every time you score a critical hit on a power attack. Some numbers...

2d4 +6 STR +2 WS +20 PA = Method 1: (2d4+28)x4 = 8d4+112; Method 2: ((2d4+8)x4)+20 = 8d4+52
(Difference by 60 points)

Just think, level 20 has a difference of 120 points. Choosing Method 1 ALWAYS puts 120 points over those that choose Method 2.

Determining which method is correct is very important. We vote Method 2, which doesn’t consider power attack as “normal weapon damage.” Our choice is still based off of the wording of the rule. It has nothing to do with these numbers. We use them simply to illustrate the dramatic difference.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Apr 3, 2005)

pawned79 said:
			
		

> Determining which method is correct is very important. We vote Method 2, which doesn’t consider power attack as “normal weapon damage.” Our choice is still based off of the wording of the rule. It has nothing to do with these numbers. We use them simply to illustrate the dramatic difference.




I, along with the 30+ DMs I've played with would disagree with your interpretation of the wording.

Power attack doesn't multiply anything, you just add 2 for every one you minus instead of 1.  The ONLY thing that isn't added a second time with crits is extra damage DICE.  A number is not a dice.  All bonuses from the first attack regardless of where they come from are added again for the crit damage.


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 3, 2005)

pawned: Its still normal weapon damage. The fact is, you are dealing that damage with your weapon in the exact same way as all other damage from the weapon (slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning), you are just hitting harder than usual. The key is that the extra damage does not come in dice. Anything that does not come in dice (enhancement bonus, specialisation bonus, power attack bonus, favoured enemy bonus), is a modifier to the base damage of the weapon, and counts as normal weapon damage. The book would tell you if Power Attack damage did not multiply. After all, it tells you that Sneak Attack doesn't. Frankly, the extra damage is only so extreme because of 3.5's two-handed power attack rule.


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## Diirk (Apr 3, 2005)

pawned79 said:
			
		

> We were noting a pattern of the damage we presented in our post just a few moments ago. In our particular example the difference in damage between Method 1 and Method 2 is 6 points of damage per level. Note that the level 1 fighters differ by 6 points, and the level 5 fighters differ by 30 points. Following this up the level tree (assuming your new feats don’t make you any better, and your weapon and strength doesn’t change), you’ll keep going up by 6 points per level. At level 10, method 1 will give you 60 more damage every time you score a critical hit on a power attack. Some numbers...
> 
> 2d4 +6 STR +2 WS +20 PA = Method 1: (2d4+28)x4 = 8d4+112; Method 2: ((2d4+8)x4)+20 = 8d4+52
> (Difference by 60 points)
> ...




Thats the most absurd 'evidence' I've ever seen. Firstly you can't give a level 1 fighter improved critical, not like it matters much seeing as you simply assumed a crit would come along when you wanted it. Secondly, just because there's some scarily big numbers doesn't mean its broken. Sure the level 20 does 120 more points of damage if you calculate it the correct way... but do you know why ? Because you're put ALL his BAB into the power attack. Great, how often do you think he's going to hit with a total attack mod of something like +10 ? A 20 always autohits, but its not a crit unless you can confirm it. Likewise a 19 (with improved crit) isn't a crit if it misses, and even if it hits you have to confirm it also...

Its not the problem you're making it out to be.


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## pawned79 (Apr 3, 2005)

I have included quotes from the text at the end of this post.

I have change my mind. I have yet to talk to my friend about it, but I will inform him of my decision as to why I changed my mind. Text presented on p114 of the PHB 3.5 trumps sidebars present on pages p140 and p306 of the PHB 3.5. The only conflict between these three quotes is on p306 in the phrase “Any extra damage dice...” as apposed to the text on p114 that states “Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage...” Since p114 trumps p306, we can safely ignore the reference to the word “dice.” This leaves the all-inclusive-statement “Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage...” Now, my focus initially in this discussion was in the concept of “normal damage.” I was ignoring the statement on p114 that states “...(using all applicable modifiers on each roll)...” Power Attack is clearly an “applicable modifier.” I would like to note that the definition of modifier on p310 of the PHB 3.5 counts as a sidebar. There may be another definition of modifier in the text that trumps it. Modifier is not listed in the index, and I am too lazy to flip through the entire PHB 3.5 to see if there is one. I don’t think anyone would disagree with the definition of modifier presented on p310 of the PHB 3.5 though.

Anyway, long story longer, Power Attack is a modifier, and I believe an “applicable modifier” at that. Those scoring a critical hit while using the Power Attack feat should consider themselves lucky and reap the benefits that my friend and I calculated previously.

As a side note, initially it was not our intention to prove our point with the mathematics we presented earlier. In fact, we didn’t care about proving it at all. We had started crunching the numbers for the two arguments and found them interesting. Again, our initial decision was based off of the phrase “normal damage.” I found some of the comments in response to our post to be rude, and I took offense to them. Impassioned by my upset state, I decided to prove our critics wrong. My more-thorough look at the rules actually drove me to the current conclusion; the conclusion of our critics. Nevertheless, I still find said responses to unwarranted.

QUOTE p310 PHB 3.5

modifier: Any bonus or penalty applying to a die roll. A positive modifier is a bonus, and a negative modifier is a penalty. Modifiers from the same source do not stack, and modifiers with specific descriptors generally do not stack with others of the same type. If more than one modifier of a type is present, only the best bonus or worst penalty in the grouping applies. Bonuses or penalties that do not have descriptors stack with those that do.

QUOTE p114 PHB 3.5

Critical: The entry in this column notes how the weapon is used with the rules for critical hits. When your character scores a critical hit, roll the damage two, three, or four times, as indicated by its critical multiplier (using all applicable modifiers on each roll), and add all the results together.
Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage, such as that dealt by a sneak attack or the special ability of a flaming sword, is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.

QUOTE p140  PHB 3.5

A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is x2.
Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage, such as that dealt by a sneak attack or the special ability of a flaming sword, is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.

QUOTE p306 PHB 3.5

critical hit (crit): A hit that strikes a vital area and therefore deals double damage or more. To score a critical hit, an attacker must first score a threat (usually a natural 20 on an attack roll) and then succeed on a critical roll (just like another attack roll). Critical hit damage is usually double damage, which means rolling damage twice, just as if the attacker had actually hit the defender two times. (Any extra damage dice, such as from a rogue’s sneak attack, are not rolled multiple times, but are added to the total at the end of the calculation.)


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## Diirk (Apr 3, 2005)

My post was probably a more offensively worded than it should have been, and I apologise for that. However you may want to give some thought into what the numbers you posted represent and how they would apply in a practical situation; in the case of your level 20 that does 120 extra damage using method 1 over method 2, for example, such a crit would occur maybe 1 time in 400 (rolling 2 20s) against most opponents he'd face. When you power attack to that degree, you'll only hit foes with low AC.


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## pawned79 (Apr 3, 2005)

The only reason I'm deriving these is because I found it fun to do. And I’m simply posting them for anyone else who finds them interesting. Here are my two final examples of the devastation that is Power Attack. The first presents the scythe, threatening a critical 10% of the time on a successful hit, and the second presents the exact same thing except with a scimitar, threatening a critical 30% of the time on a successful hit. To make it even worse, instead of fighter, he could be barbarian; Instead of human, he could be half-orc; Instead of half-orc, he could be a centaur! Oh man, don’t go pissing off scythe-wielding and scimitar-wielding barbarian centaurs.

Level 12 Human Fighter: Str 24, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 8
Equipment: +4 Strength Belt, Scythe +2, MW Full Plate, Trail Ration (In case he is hungry)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Scythe), Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Weapon Specialization (Scythe), Endurance, Diehard, Great Cleave, Greater Weapon Focus (Scythe), Greater Weapon Specialization (Scythe), Improved Critical, Dodge
Init: +1 Dex +4 II = +5 Init
AC: 10 +9 MWFP +1 Dex = AC 20
TH: +12 BAB +7 Str +1 WF +1 GWF +2 Scythe = +23 TH (PA as low as +11 TH)
DMG: 2d4+2 +10 Str +2 WS +2 GWS = 2d4+16 DMG (PA as high as 2d4+40 DMG)
Crit: Improve Critical Scythe 19-20 x4

Not Power Attacking
Threaten a critical hit on 19-20, roll of 19 hits AC 42 (Threatens 10% of the time)
Scoring a critical hit on AC 10, 20, 30, 40, 42, and higher on roll of 2, 2, 7, 17, 19, and 20 respectively
(2d4+16)x4 DMG = 8d4+64 DMG
Minimum 68 DMG, Average 84 DMG, Maximum 96 DMG

Power Attacking at -12 TH
Threaten a critical hit on 19-20, roll of 19 hits AC 30 (Threatens 10% of the time)
Scoring a critical hit on AC 10, 20, 30, and higher on roll of  2, 9, 19, and 20 respectively
(2d4+40)x4 DMG = 8d4+160 DMG
Minimum 168 DMG, Average 180 DMG, Maximum 192 DMG

-----------------

Level 12 Human Fighter: Str 24, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 8
Equipment: +4 Strength Belt, Scimitar +2, MW Full Plate, Trail Ration (In case he is hungry)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Weapon Specialization (Scimitar), Endurance, Diehard, Great Cleave, Greater Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Greater Weapon Specialization (Scimitar), Improved Critical, Dodge
Wielding scimitar with two hands...
Init: +1 Dex +4 II = +5 Init
AC: 10 +9 MWFP +1 Dex = AC 20
TH: +12 BAB +7 Str +1 WF +1 GWF +2 Scimitar = +23 TH (PA as low as +11 TH)
DMG: 1d6+2 +10 Str +2 WS +2 GWS = 1d6+16 DMG (PA as high as 1d6+40 DMG)
Crit: Improve Critical Scimitar 17-20 x2

Not Power Attacking
Threaten a critical hit on 15-20, roll of 15 hits AC 38 (Threatens 30% of the time)
Scoring a critical hit on AC 10, 20, 30, 40, 42, and higher on roll of 2, 2, 7, 17, 19, and 20 respectively
(1d6+16)x2 DMG = 2d6+32 DMG
Minimum 34 DMG, Average 38 DMG, Maximum 44 DMG

Power Attacking at -12 TH
Threaten a critical hit on 15-20, roll of 15 hits AC 26 (Threatens 30% of the time)
Scoring a critical hit on AC 10, 20, 30, and higher on roll of  2, 9, 19, and 20 respectively
(1d6+40)x2 DMG = 2d6+80 DMG
Minimum 82 DMG, Average 86 DMG, Maximum 96 DMG


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## dcollins (Apr 3, 2005)

From the first page of the 3rd Edition D&D FAQ:



> _What bonuses get multiplied when a character confirms
> a critical hit? Suppose a 10th-level barbarian with a
> Strength score of 18 confirms a critical hit while raging and
> using a +3 greataxe *and a maximum Power Attack*. How
> ...




3.5 rules changed the precise effect of Power Attack with a two-handed weapon, but the rules of what gets boosted by a critical are exactly the same.


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## the Jester (Apr 3, 2005)

dcollins said:
			
		

> From the first page of the 3rd Edition D&D FAQ...
> 
> >snip<
> 
> 3.5 rules changed the precise effect of Power Attack with a two-handed weapon, but the rules of what gets boosted by a critical are exactly the same.




Thanks for the cite!


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