# The Greatest TV Shows of All Time (Kinda): The Top 10



## Snarf Zagyg (Jun 7, 2021)

Greetings and recriminations, and welcome to a very special edition of the Snarf's Musings about the Media. If you haven't seen the posts leading up this, they are located here:








						Firefly Reconsidered: Why Firefly Isn't "Hall of Fame" Great
					

I have a thing about creating various lists. Top five action heroes of the 80s. Best miniseries on Netflix. Top Three Heuristics to use while DMing. While creating these many lists that I like to make, primarily for my own enjoyment and others’ suffering, I realized something. Reading isn’t just...




					www.enworld.org
				




...and here:








						Consider the Cannoli: Subjective Preferences and Conversations about Geek Media
					

1. The Great Wave of Ricotta.  I often think about cannoli. They occupy my thoughts, bedevil my dreams. Not because I love them, or obsess about them. Nor because the eating of a cannoli opens my mind to a Proust-like reverie. Instead, it's because of my bewilderment and bafflement. There are so...




					www.enworld.org
				




You might ask yourself, “Self, why is this being shared? Who cares what Snarf thinks about TV, anyway?” And the answer is twofold- one, I feel like sharing, because sharing is caring. THE MORE YOU KNOW(tm). Two, when I am the boss of everyone, my personal top ten listicles will be required reading. So ... get in front of the curve. *39 Things You Must Do Before Snarf Zagyg is the Evil Overlord of us All! *

Without any further buildup or my usual throat clearing, here are the rules to the TOP TEN GREATEST TELEVISION SHOWS OF ALL TIME THAT YOU SHOULD HAVE WATCHED AND WILL FEEL MOAR STUPIDER IF YOU HAVEN’T.

1. The show must be complete. In other words, maybe you like that _Expanse_. Maybe you just can't wait for another episode of _Barry_. Well, sorry bud. Not eligible. I call this the *Dexter Rule*. Any promising first season of a television show can be thoroughly destroyed by ensuing seasons, until the last season is just a fiendish attempt at trolling the remaining viewers. Like any Hall of Fame, we can’t prematurely judge a show. To channel Johnny Cochrane, you can't be the best, until you're laid to rest.

2. It must be American. Or American-y (productions that are shot abroad that are mainly for American audiences and in English count as well). There is so very much good television from so many parts of the word, that the inclusion of some shows would lead to endless chaos. Call this the *Borgen/BBC Rule*, with the “Look kids, it’s Vancouver” exception.

3. It must be a drama, or a dramedy (mainly a drama). This is not because comedies are unworthy, or less than dramas- but they are different. It is exceptionally hard to rate them against pure dramas, and I’m not even going to try. This is the *Arrested Development Rule*.

4. It must be a series that is not only complete (see rule 1), but must have ran for two seasons or more. That means no miniseries, and no shows, no matter how beloved, that were cancelled too quickly. Call this the *Firefly Rule*.

5. The show will be judged from all episodes holistically, but sticking the landing matters. As you will see from my top ten list, I like shows with both finite endings, and ambiguous endings, but sometimes later episodes of the show make the rest of the show not quite worthy of the list. You can call this the X-Files, Game of Thrones, or *Lost Rule*.  In addition, a show will be docked if it was ended prematurely. See also, Deadwood.

6. Shows are not given special bonuses for being ahead of their time, for the most part.  That means that this list will be mostly full of recent shows. It’s unfortunate, but true. Call this the *Twilight Zone Corollary*. (An excellent show that would make this list if given any kind of bonus).

7. I am not trying to be a hipster; shows make it on their merit. I would love to say, “Hey, the Wire isn’t all that. Treme is really where it’s at, man.” But that would make me a lying liar.  

8. A show has to be, you know, thoughtful and good to be one of the Greatest Shows. I like binging Spartacus with the best of them, but it’s not ... a great show. It’s fun. Fun is good. But fun doesn’t make a show top 10. This is the *Inevitable Law of CW*. Another way to think about this is that this is not simply "Snarf's No Cannoli List of Shows Snarf Thinks Are Awesome" but a list that attempts to take into account the general quality of the shows beyond simply my enjoyment of them.

9. I have to have watched the show. Is Six Feet Under good? Maybe! Did it have an amazing, all-time ending? Quite possibly! Some day, I will know. That day is not today.

So, here is the list. This Hall of Fame/Top 10 list is the product of maths, and therefore cannot be argued with, although you are welcome to make a case for other shows in the comments. Also? This is not an ordinal list; the rankings are not in order.

1. _The Leftovers. _Perhaps the best finale ever, and the best show no one watched. Very few shows are as ambitious, well-written, and well-acted as this show.  Simply put, a tour de force. 

2. _Rectify. _Rectify looked at the Leftovers’ terrible ratings, and said “Hold my beer.” Their tagline should have been, “Just as depressing as that other great show you don’t watch, but with less magical realism!”

3. _The Americans. _The show that consistently delighted in denying viewers the show that they wanted, and instead giving them the show they deserved.  In addition, the show contained some of the best musical moments of any TV show, ever.  From the beginning, with the use of Tusk immediately dropping you into this world, to the end (the obvious, yet perfect, use of With or Without You), to everything in between (Yellow Brick Road, We Do What We're Told), few series have paired music as perfectly with the visuals as the Americans. 

4. _The Sopranos. _The all-time classic, and the show that started the good TV revolution. And the ending was perfect- fight me.

5. _The Wire. _The great American television show. Some might say the greatEST American TV show. The Sopranos might have started the quality TV revolution, but the Wire is the show that proved that television could be the new Great American Novel. 

6. _Halt and Catch Fire. _A first season that was uneven quickly re-focused its attention in season 2, and told one of the most moving stories of our time. 

7. _Mad Men. _Mad Men is to television what Chekhov is to plays.

8. _Breaking Bad. _Perhaps the most exciting show on this list; it is one of the few shows that not only maintained a propulsive sense of forward momentum, but the velocity continued to increase with each season and episode until by the end, you could feel yourself hurtling past the point of no return. 

9. _Buffy/Angel. _Cheating and putting this in as a twofer.  The shows still hold up, and codified many of the concepts (from "Big Bad" to the season-long arcs) that became such a feature in TV.

10. _The Shield. _The most vulnerable show on this list, and it isn’t aging as well. That said, I wanted to have one procedural, the last few episodes remain perfection, and the acting remains top-notch.  It's probably the most overlooked "great TV" show. 

Honorable Mentions:
_Banshee_: perfect genre TV.
_Mr. Robot_: the closest to Kubrick we have gotten on the small screen.
_The Deuce_: Shockingly good, but not as good as the Wire.
_Hannibal_: Stylish. Makes me hungrier than anything on the Cooking Channel. 
_Justified_: Timothy Olyphant, barely missing out.
_Deadwood_: And barely missing out again. 
_Legion_: Maybe my favorite show in terms of watching it, but the style sometimes wrote checks that the substance could not cash. 
_Oz_: Shocking, and shockingly good at the time, but has not aged as well as some of the others. 
_Game of Thrones: _Tough omission; a better last season (or last two seasons) would easily have put it in the top 10.
_X-Files_. Too dated.


And there it is. Perhaps the most noticeable aspect, IMO, is that there is a strong prevalence of anti-heroes on the list. Arguably, starting with The Sopranos (which kicked off our current craze), the Wire, Breaking Bad, the Americans, and the Shield are explicitly about anti-heroes. Mad Men, Rectify, Halt and Catch Fire, and the Leftovers are, at best, ambiguous. Of course, the Twilight Zone Corollary keeps me from going too far back and comparing shows (how important was Hill Street Blues?) which is why there is a strong bias to more modern shows- then again, in fairness, the vast majority of TV was really bad for a very long time. 

So ... thoughts? Novelties? Party tricks? What show did I absolutely whiff on? And which of the top 10 shows is you cannoli?


----------



## Cadence (Jun 7, 2021)

M*A*S*H

Also, lack of comedies because it is too hard is sad.


----------



## meltdownpass (Jun 7, 2021)

Really hard to see Buffy/Angel belonging on this list. Too schlocky and too much filler (even if it's often well-done as far as that goes).


----------



## MarkB (Jun 7, 2021)

Too many hoops to jump through. You lost me at "It must be American."


----------



## Gradine (Jun 7, 2021)

Lost had a great ending, it just required you to care more about the characters than the worldbuilding.

Which I'll grant is a tough ask.

e: They still did Locke dirty though


----------



## Morrus (Jun 7, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> 2. It must be American. Or American-y (productions that are shot abroad that are mainly for American audiences and in English count as well).



Really?


----------



## Morrus (Jun 7, 2021)

MarkB said:


> Too many hoops to jump through. You lost me at "It must be American."



Yeah.


----------



## Ed_Laprade (Jun 7, 2021)

Any top ten list of TV shows that doesn't include The Twilight Zone, for any reason, is nothing but a farse.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Jun 7, 2021)

MarkB said:


> Too many hoops to jump through. You lost me at "It must be American."






Morrus said:


> Really?




Just trying to weigh the Korean tv shows would be hard enough.

Trying to do the British shows as well? And every tv show ever from every nation (even the ones that I have seen)?

Not my bag.


----------



## Morrus (Jun 7, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Just trying to weigh the Korean tv shows would be hard enough.
> 
> Trying to do the British shows as well? And every tv show ever from every nation (even the ones that I have seen)?
> 
> Not my bag.



I guess this thread isn't my bag then either. Have fun!

(You should name it a bit more accurately though)


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Jun 7, 2021)

Morrus said:


> I guess this thread isn't my bag then either. Have fun!
> 
> (You should name it a bit more accurately though)




That’s the “kinda.” If people chose to comment before reading what I wrote, well, that’s the internet.


----------



## MarkB (Jun 7, 2021)

Morrus said:


> I guess this thread isn't my bag then either. Have fun!
> 
> (You should name it a bit more accurately though)



Top Ten Snarfiest TV Shows Of All Time?


----------



## Steampunkette (Jun 7, 2021)

Farscape, Star Trek Deep Space Nine, Gargoyles, and Batman: The Animated Series are not on this list.

Therefore it is wrong.


----------



## Sepulchrave II (Jun 7, 2021)

Peep Show
Black Mirror
Dr Who
Blake’s 7
I, Claudius
Robin of Sherwood
Happy Valley
The Fall and Rise of Reginald Perrin
A Very British Coup
GBH


----------



## Dioltach (Jun 7, 2021)

Black Books, Blackadder, Hustle.

And Firefly, obviously.


----------



## Morrus (Jun 7, 2021)

Fawlty Towers
Blackadder
Line of Duty
Doctor Who
Only Fools and Horses
Would I Lie To You?
Monty Python’s Flying Circus
Prime Suspect
Cracker
Planet Earth
The Thick of It

dang that’s 11. Can’t pick one to remove!


----------



## RangerWickett (Jun 7, 2021)

Steampunkette said:


> Farscape, Star Trek Deep Space Nine, Gargoyles, and Batman: The Animated Series are not on this list.
> 
> Therefore it is wrong.



Farscape was made in Australia, so per thread rules it cannot be a good show, or something.


----------



## Arilyn (Jun 7, 2021)

Leverage had no bad episodes. That's a feat worth noting.


----------



## Ace (Jun 7, 2021)

C.S.I.  15 seasons, no bad seasons, few bad episodes and justifiably very popular.

Even old 2000's episodes hold up pretty well.


----------



## Arilyn (Jun 7, 2021)

I know comedy is off the list, but Corner Gas!


----------



## Steampunkette (Jun 7, 2021)

RangerWickett said:


> Farscape was made in Australia, so per thread rules it cannot be a good show, or something.



While Farscape was made in Australia it is very "American-y" in that it was made for American Audiences through the Sci-Fi channel. That's why the main character is an American and all the Aliens are Aussies and Kiwis. (Playfully stated)


----------



## payn (Jun 7, 2021)

meltdownpass said:


> Really hard to see Buffy/Angel belonging on this list. Too schlocky and too much filler (even if it's often well-done as far as that goes).



I thought this too. Then again, OP put action soft core porn series Banshee down as an honorable mention.


----------



## TwoSix (Jun 7, 2021)

Just because of the sheer volume involved, ranking TV is really, really hard.  Alan Sepinwall and Matt Zoller Seitz, who are two well-known TV critics, put out a book about 5 years ago (TV: The Book) where they had a good discussion about the merits of comedy versus drama, older shows versus new shows, etc.  For the record, their top ten (which included comedies, but also focused on North American TV) was:

1)  The Simpsons
2)  The Sopranos
3)  The Wire
4)  Cheers
5)  Breaking Bad
6)  Mad Men
7)  Seinfeld
8)  I Love Lucy
9)  Deadwood
10)  All in the Family


----------



## payn (Jun 7, 2021)

TwoSix said:


> Just because of the sheer volume involved, ranking TV is really, really hard.  Alan Sepinwall and Matt Zoller Seitz, who are two well-known TV critics, put out a book about 5 years ago (TV: The Book) where they had a good discussion about the merits of comedy versus drama, older shows versus new shows, etc.  For the record, their top ten (which included comedies, but also focused on North American TV) was:
> 
> 1)  The Simpsons
> 2)  The Sopranos
> ...



I dont typically like sit-coms, but Cheers was all sorts of greatness. All in the Family was amazing, I cant imagine anything like it ever hitting the small screen again.


----------



## Cadence (Jun 7, 2021)

Now that comedies are being bandied around contrary to the rules, I'll throw in documentaries and science shows...

Nature (591 episodes)
NOVA (884 episodes)

if I double break the rules and go for shorter than two seasons...

The Civil War (11.5 hours over 9 episodes)

and if I triple break it and add on made in the UK...

The Life of Birds  (8.3 hours over 10 episodes).


----------



## Dioltach (Jun 7, 2021)

On a more serious note: White Collar, Justified, The Dragon Prince and (so far) Lucifer.


----------



## TwoSix (Jun 7, 2021)

Cadence said:


> Now that comedies are being bandied around contrary to the rules, I'll throw in documentaries and science shows...



To be fair, Snarf didn't post any rules.  He simply posted the criteria he used for making his list.  I wouldn't use the same criteria if I was making a top 10 list.  Not that I think his are wrong, because there's no right or wrong here.


----------



## Cadence (Jun 7, 2021)

TwoSix said:


> To be fair, Snarf didn't post any rules.  He simply posted the criteria he used for making his list.  I wouldn't use the same criteria if I was making a top 10 list.  Not that I think his are wrong, because there's no right or wrong here.




I mean, judging by your list, I like whatever criteria you were using better anyway


----------



## Gradine (Jun 7, 2021)

In order:

1) DuckTales (2017)


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Jun 7, 2021)

RangerWickett said:


> ... so per thread rules it cannot be a good show, or something




Just pointing this out. I find that having rules in place makes things easier ... for me. That's why I listed the criteria I was using.

This doesn't mean that non-American shows cannot be good shows. This doesn't mean that comedies cannot be good shows. This doesn't mean that older shows cannot be good shows. Nor does this mean that shows I have not watched cannot be a good shows.

Instead, as I went to some length in describing when I went through the criteria, there is a difficulty in comparing some of these things, and the purpose was not _simply to list shows I like. _

But sure, if people prefer to list "shows I think are cool for no particular reason," then have at it.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Jun 7, 2021)

Ignoring rules, here’s 10 of the most important TV to air:

M.A.S.H.
Monty Python’s Flying Circus
Twilight Zone
Star Trek (original)
Miami Vice
The Simpsons
All In The Family
Roots
Connections
Cosmos

10 Hon. Mentions:

SNL
Dallas
Baywatch
King Biscuit Flower Hour
The Tonight Show
Masterpiece Theater Presents
Austin City Limits
Good Times
The Sopranos
I Love Lucy
Doctor Who

I will note, that I’m not a big fan of some of the shows on these lists.  But I recognize each had a major impact on TV and/or culture.



Edit: dropped Dexter in favor of I Love Lucy.


----------



## Ralif Redhammer (Jun 7, 2021)

Totally agree with this. The way it could weave comedy and pathos and commentary together still remains hard to match. The Perks of Being a Wallflower got it right when it said it was one of the greatest TV shows of all time.

Speaking of comedies, Blackadder definitely deserves a mention.



Cadence said:


> M*A*S*H
> 
> Also, lack of comedies because it is too hard is sad.




Mad Men was so darn good. In a lot of ways, it set the bar for the high production value TV shows that would follow in its wake. 

As an aside, I still think it criminal that they didn't cast Jon Hamm as John Carter like they were considering.



Snarf Zagyg said:


> 7. _Mad Men. _Mad Men is to television what Chekhov is to plays.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Jun 7, 2021)

TwoSix said:


> Just because of the sheer volume involved, ranking TV is really, really hard.  Alan Sepinwall and Matt Zoller Seitz, who are two well-known TV critics, put out a book about 5 years ago (TV: The Book) where they had a good discussion about the merits of comedy versus drama, older shows versus new shows, etc.  For the record, their top ten (which included comedies, but also focused on North American TV) was:
> 
> 1)  The Simpsons
> 2)  The Sopranos
> ...




Somewhat unsurprisingly, this list is identical to mine, except that it includes comedies (oh, and it has Deadwood in the top 10 instead of an honorable mention).

EDIT-
And I looked it up- after accounting for the comedies issue, my list ended up looking like this:
The Leftovers- not included because it wasn't complete at the time they wrote the book (2017) (they used that criterion too!).
Rectify- not included because it wasn't complete at the time they wrote the book (end of 2016).
The Americans-  not included because it wasn't complete at the time they wrote the book.
Sopranos- #2
The Wire- #3
Halt and Catch Fire-  not included because it wasn't complete at the time they wrote the book (2017).
Mad Men- #6
Breaking Bad- #5
Buffy/Angel- #25
The Shield- #13

So if you remove the comedies (1, 4, 7, 8, 9, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 21, 22), then all of my picks that were eligible were some of their top ranked ones.

Here are the revised top 15 dramas by their criterion (drama only):

1)  The Sopranos
3)  The Wire
3)  Breaking Bad
4)  Mad Men
5)  Deadwood
6) M*A*S*H*
7) Hill Street Blues
8) The Shield
9) The Twilight Zone
10) X-Files
11) Twin Peaks
12) Lost
13) Buffy
14) Oz
15) Friday Night Lights


----------



## TwoSix (Jun 7, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Somewhat unsurprisingly, this list is identical to mine, except that it includes comedies (oh, and it has Deadwood in the top 10 instead of an honorable mention).



Rectify, The Americans, and the Leftovers weren't finished when the book was published, but I imagine all 3 would be at or near top 10 in a 2021 list.  They also have The Shield at 13 and Buffy at 25.


----------



## Grendel_Khan (Jun 7, 2021)

I'm not too keen on some of these restrictions (excluding British shows seems a bit wild...feels like this could have just as easily been a top 10 of English-language shows) but I'm very much in agreement with your list, with the exception of Buffy and the Shield. Still though, you're my kind of pretentious American bastard!


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Jun 7, 2021)

TwoSix said:


> Rectify, The Americans, and the Leftovers weren't finished when the book was published, but I imagine all 3 would be at or near top 10 in a 2021 list.  They also have The Shield at 13 and Buffy at 25.




I just finished the edit when you posted- check it out.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Jun 7, 2021)

Grendel_Khan said:


> I'm not too keen on some of these restrictions (excluding British shows seems a bit wild...feels like this could have just as easily been a top 10 of English-language shows) but I'm very much in agreement with your list, with the exception of Buffy and the Shield. Still though, you're my kind of pretentious American bastard!




Try not to be too hard on American television; it is the only relaxation of the intellectually unemployed.


----------



## Grendel_Khan (Jun 7, 2021)

TwoSix said:


> Just because of the sheer volume involved, ranking TV is really, really hard.  Alan Sepinwall and Matt Zoller Seitz, who are two well-known TV critics, put out a book about 5 years ago (TV: The Book) where they had a good discussion about the merits of comedy versus drama, older shows versus new shows, etc.  For the record, their top ten (which included comedies, but also focused on North American TV) was:
> 
> 1)  The Simpsons
> 2)  The Sopranos
> ...



Seitz is my favorite TV critic, by far (and a fantastic movie critic too...he's the reason I got myself into the theater to see Annihilation, my favorite movie in years). And Sepinwall is great too!


----------



## Imaculata (Jun 7, 2021)

No Black Sails?

That show was great!


----------



## TwoSix (Jun 7, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> I just finished the edit when you posted- check it out.



And really, it's kind of amazing how many Pantheon-level shows have finished up just in the past 5 years.  I'm not as sold on Halt and Catch Fire, but Leftovers, Rectify, and the Americans are all right up there.


----------



## payn (Jun 7, 2021)

TwoSix said:


> And really, it's kind of amazing how many Pantheon-level shows have finished up just in the past 5 years.  I'm not as sold on Halt and Catch Fire, but Leftovers, Rectify, and the Americans are all right up there.



I'd argue we are in the golden age of television right now. Tons of good stuff. I did like The Americans, but something about the final season just didn't work for me. 

I'd toss in Watchmen and at least and honorable mention for Pillars of the Earth, but for some reason single series are ruled out because of Firefly


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Jun 7, 2021)

TwoSix said:


> And really, it's kind of amazing how many Pantheon-level shows have finished up just in the past 5 years.  I'm not as sold on Halt and Catch Fire, but Leftovers, Rectify, and the Americans are all right up there.




I think the floodgates from the Sopranos are well and truly opened. When you combine the insatiable need for content with the launch of all these streaming services and the remaining legacy cable services ... it's been a deluge. Not to mention so much talent in the area, and the rise of the "showrunner as auteur" and truly distinctive programs.

The idea that you'd have shows as distinctive as Mr. Robot and Legion, and I couldn't find room for them, shows just how crowded the field is. The "great American novel" is no longer a bildungsroman, but a TV series with a limited lifespan. 

If you didn't watch Halt and Catch Fire all the way through, give it another shot. Very few shows pivot as smartly as it did, going from the usual "anti-hero" focus to a nuanced depiction on the way people come together, and fall apart. The historical computer stuff is just a bonus!


----------



## CleverNickName (Jun 7, 2021)

Any list of "Good TV Shows of All Time" that doesn't include _The Good Place _in the top three, is wrong.  
I don't make the rules.


----------



## Grendel_Khan (Jun 7, 2021)

payn said:


> I'd argue we are in the golden age of television right now. Tons of good stuff. I did like The Americans, but something about the final season just didn't work for me.
> 
> I'd toss in Watchmen and at least and honorable mention for Pillars of the Earth, but for some reason single series are ruled out because of Firefly



Damn, totally forgot about Watchmen!

Let's get Buffy or the Shield out of there to make room.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Jun 7, 2021)

payn said:


> I'd toss in Watchmen and at least and honorable mention for Pillars of the Earth, but for some reason single series are ruled out because of Firefly




Not because of Firefly; more because of the sheer number of great miniseries getting pumped out, and the difficulty in comparing them and adding them to the list. Cherenobyl? Watchmen? Alias Grace? Mildred Pierce? Band of Brothers (either)? The Night Of ... or even better, It Takes a Hero? Angels in America?  Generation Kill? 

Ugh. That's off the top of my head. And those are recent ones. That's not even getting into the older, "event" ones like Roots.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Jun 7, 2021)

CleverNickName said:


> Any list of "Good TV Shows of All Time" that doesn't include _The Good Place _in the top three, is wrong.
> I don't make the rules.




Don't Derek the Thread.


----------



## Grendel_Khan (Jun 7, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Not because of Firefly; more because of the sheer number of great miniseries getting pumped out, and the difficulty in comparing them and adding them to the list. Cherenobyl? Watchmen? Alias Grace? Mildred Pierce? Band of Brothers (either)? The Night Of ... or even better, It Takes a Hero? Angels in America?  Generation Kill?
> 
> Ugh. That's off the top of my head. And those are recent ones. That's not even getting into the older, "event" ones like Roots.



Totally fair. Miniseries are a very different animal.

And it doesn't qualify yet, but I'd bet money that, once it's wrapped up, I'm going to like Better Caul Saul more than Breaking Bad. Both funnier and sadder. And ... Odenkirk is better than Cranston!

(Not that Cranston is bad, at all, but I stand by it)


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Jun 7, 2021)

Grendel_Khan said:


> Totally fair. Miniseries are a very different animal.
> 
> And it doesn't qualify yet, but I'd bet money that, once it's wrapped up, I'm going to like Better Caul Saul more than Breaking Bad. Both funnier and sadder. And ... Odenkirk is better than Cranston!
> 
> (Not that Cranston is bad, at all, but I stand by it)




Better Call Saul is really, really good. It's definitely an intense character study. But it will be interesting to see if it ... well ... sticks the landing. I think it's easy to overlook _how good _Breaking Bad was ... certainly in the sense that it truly paid off.


----------



## payn (Jun 7, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Not because of Firefly; more because of the sheer number of great miniseries getting pumped out, and the difficulty in comparing them and adding them to the list. Cherenobyl? Watchmen? Alias Grace? Mildred Pierce? Band of Brothers (either)? The Night Of ... or even better, It Takes a Hero? Angels in America?  Generation Kill?
> 
> Ugh. That's off the top of my head. And those are recent ones. That's not even getting into the older, "event" ones like Roots.



Its true, the critera is helpful so you dont get lists with the Simpsons, Mash, Babylon 5, and Sailor moon.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Jun 7, 2021)

payn said:


> Its true, the critera is helpful so you dont get lists with the Simpsons, Mash, Babylon 5, and Sailor moon.




I think I was using an internal "no animation" rule, but didn't explicitly list it.

....and it pained me to not include B5, which would be in the top 10 Snarfiest Shows, and may make an appearance when I do the top 10 SciFi.


----------



## Gradine (Jun 7, 2021)

Okay, my revised top TV shows:

1) Duck Tales (2017)
2) The Good Place
3) White Christmas (2011, Korea)


----------



## Cadence (Jun 7, 2021)

payn said:


> Its true, the critera is helpful so you dont get lists with the Simpsons, Mash, Babylon 5, and Sailor moon.




I'm confused about where this list of four shows comes from.

Anyway, M*A*S*H was apparently #6 among the dramas/dramedies in the critics list TV (The Book) - Wikipedia  mentioned earlier, and with comedies.included The Simpsons was #1.


----------



## Grendel_Khan (Jun 7, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Better Call Saul is really, really good. It's definitely an intense character study. But it will be interesting to see if it ... well ... sticks the landing. I think it's easy to overlook _how good _Breaking Bad was ... certainly in the sense that it truly paid off.




I truly truly loved Breaking Bad, but the very ending is what kind of killed the buzz for me. Just a little too mad scientist, and way too "Heisenberg is a badass RIGHT FELLAS??!?!!???!!!"

I say that with deep love and affection for so much of it. Best pulp crime noir comedy on TV....until Better Call Saul.

Better Call Saul is just so much more tragic and complex, to me, specifically because of the way it leans into being a prequel. And Jimmy's relationship with Kim, and the way the show earns every one of the twists in that relationship...that aspect of it is operating on such a crazy high level.

Anyway, you're right, at this point it's all about how it sticks the landing. I don't say that for most shows, but it really matters here.


----------



## TwoSix (Jun 7, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> I think I was using an internal "no animation" rule, but didn't explicitly list it.
> 
> ....and it pained me to not include B5, which would be in the top 10 Snarfiest Shows, and may make an appearance when I do the top 10 SciFi.



Yea, if we exclude animation, we'd also have to exclude Bojack Horseman, which is another pantheon-level recently finished show.


----------



## TwoSix (Jun 7, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> If you didn't watch Halt and Catch Fire all the way through, give it another shot. Very few shows pivot as smartly as it did, going from the usual "anti-hero" focus to a nuanced depiction on the way people come together, and fall apart. The historical computer stuff is just a bonus!



I will add it to my multiple page single spaced list of shows that people recommend I watch.


----------



## Odysseus (Jun 8, 2021)

1.Banshee
2.Justified
3.Americans
4.Alias Smith and Jones
5.Supernatural
6.Star gate Atlantis
7.Jessica Jones
8.Travellers
9.Rockford Files
10 Blake Seven


----------



## payn (Jun 8, 2021)

My list with Snarfs criteria (plus one of my own.)
Is complete.
American.
Drama.
Series, at least 2 seasons.
Judged wholly, but bonus for good ending.
No bonus for innovation.
No hipster sneaks.
Thoughtful and good 
Seen it.
_Not episodic, but serial (Sorry yesterdays episodic dramas are simply outclassed) _

*The Leftovers* Lindelof finally unshackled by ABC network television is allowed to stretch his creative skills. There have have been dozens of supernatural/super science phenomena premise shows in the last 20+ years, but finally somebody gets it right. As an audience we are just as clueless as everyone else and just get to sit back and watch the world melt. No shark jumping explanations or super powered humans, just a heartbreaking story that wraps up in three neat seasons. Another bonus for Lindelof knowing when a story has run its course. 

*The Sopranos *The series that changed it all. Thanks goodness Fox passed on it; amiright? Not the first premo cable series but for sure the first household named series. A whole new look for the ganster flick, the suburbs of New Jersey. Taking the kids to college tours by day, choking out rats by night. Gets a little long in the tooth around 5th season, but I loved the finale, yes even the Journey. 

*The Wire *A great serial with an anthology feel. Not much else to say, great writing, good acting, Tom Waits... I fear its tongue and cheek final season is going to make it slip in lists going forward. 

*Breaking Bad *The Malcom in the middle dad??? This is what Disney is trying to do with their anti-hero princess movies. Show us a good guy gone bad. Funny, clever, and heart touching.  Ends at the 5th season before the showrunners could really break it bad. 

*Ray Donovan *Many have tried to make the fixer series, and many have failed. Ray Donovan is the triumphant success story. The writing, the cast, its wicked good. As much as I loathe Jon Voight, he is nothing short of amazing as the family patriarch Mickey Donovan. Its worth watching just for him alone. Fell into the trap that Breaking Bad didn't, went on way too long.  

*Black Sails *Starts out fishy, but ends like a whale. What a concept, take Treasure Island and make an adult prequel out of it. The exposition is amazing and they pull fantastic performances out of little known actors. I so do wish someday they make a Treasure Island movie with the cast (those living).

*The Borgias (showtime) *History buffs will cry (its not very accurate) but what a palace intrigue story. I mean what better palace than the Vatican? Cut short in three season, I think it could have wrapped perfectly with a fourth. Jeremy Irons is like a fine wine. What more can I say?

*Penny Dreadful* This series just oozes atmosphere. A whole new spin on monster of the week. Chilling exposition from Eva Green and Rory Kinnear (criminally underrated). Cut short by a season, but what great ride while it lasted. 

*Nip Tuck *Folks may have forgotten this gem, but it really opened up what a cable network series could offer. Also, not another cop show; what a concept! Great character development and twist you don't see coming.  

*Game of Thrones *This series was executed so well, at least for a time. Its really too bad Martin's writing ran out, because when it did, so did the gas in D&Ds tank. Never have I seen someone go deuces wild in the punch bowl like this. Even Disney wants nothing to do with them. 

_Honorable mentions.  _
Counterpart; Bringing the cold war spy thriller into the 21st century. 

Rectify; Something new in a sea of the same.

A Brave New World; A superb take on social constructs and sexuality. Cut short but not surprising with its 100 mill price tag


----------



## DrunkonDuty (Jun 8, 2021)

Skippy - move over Lassie, the roo's got it from here. Iconic.
Home and Away - nothing better than pretty blond people on the beach having drama.
Neighbours - if nothing else it gave the world Kylie Minogue's singing career.
Hollowmen - the Aussie West Wing.
Utopia - the Victorian Hollowmen.
Frontline - the greatest current affairs show of all time.
Farscape - although the the guy with the weird accent was annoying.
Are You Being Served (the Australian version) - yes, this really happened. Starred John Inman too.
Countdown - no, British readers, not that one.
Bluey - a family of blue heelers. For the kids. (And the adults.)


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Jun 8, 2021)

Forgot one:  Sesame Street


----------



## Gradine (Jun 8, 2021)

Can't believe I forgot Bluey. Best kids show, hands down.


----------



## Imaculata (Jun 8, 2021)

Despite not sticking the landing during its final season, Game of Thrones was fantastic television for a very long time. Indeed as soon as they ran out of books, it all went down hill. But that was after about 5 fantastic seasons.

I'm more forgiving of Game of Thrones, than I am of Lost. Because it was very clear to me after just 2 seasons, that there was no clear plan to answer any questions.

The most important part of writing a mystery, is knowing the answer. You can't think up an answer to a mystery you've created later, without showing that you have no idea where you're going with it.


----------



## ccs (Jun 8, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Without any further buildup or my usual throat clearing, here are the rules
> 
> 9. I have to have watched the show.




Sadly I'm not psychic.   
So until you provide me a comprehensive list of everything you've ever watched (that qualifies for the rest of your rules) I'm unable to participate.


----------



## amethal (Jun 8, 2021)

DrunkonDuty said:


> Skippy - move over Lassie, the roo's got it from here. Iconic.
> Home and Away - nothing better than pretty blond people on the beach having drama.
> Neighbours - if nothing else it gave the world Kylie Minogue's singing career.
> Hollowmen - the Aussie West Wing.
> ...



No Prisoner Cell Block H? (Apparently just called Prisoner in Australia.)


----------



## payn (Jun 8, 2021)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Forgot one:  Sesame Street



Sorry, its not complete yet.


----------



## Campbell (Jun 8, 2021)

For American TV:


Mr . Robot
Legion
Twin Peaks
Sons of Anarchy
Deadwood
Homicide - Life on The Streets
The Wire
All in the Family
In The Heat of the Night
Justified
Honorable Mentions

The Orville
Hannibal
Breaking Bad
Community
Penny Dreadful
Being Human


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Jun 8, 2021)

payn said:


> My list with Snarfs criteria (plus one of my own.)
> Is complete.
> American.
> Drama.
> ...




Brief Comments:
Haven't seen Ray Donovan, Black Sails, Nip Tuck, Counterpart, or A Brave New World.

The Borgias was quite good. Love Jeremy Irons! And yes, tragically cut short. Hmm... makes me think about the Young Pope / New Pope. 

Penny Dreadful was also excellent, and also cut short. 

There is just so much great TV out there. It's almost like a joke at this point; there is, quite literally, _too much_ to watch. If you want to have a life. 

Heck, one of the best shows I have ever seen is _The Patriot_ (Amazon Prime). It's just all sorts of brilliant. It's in my personal top 20, and maybe top 10. But I never talk about it because everyone thinks I'm discussing one of the Mel Gibson movies. It just slipped through the cracks.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Jun 8, 2021)

Campbell said:


> For American TV:
> 
> 
> Mr . Robot
> ...




Brief comments-

Mr. Robot and Legion are two of my favorite shows ever, but not necessarily top 10 (they were both honorable mention).

Homicide - Life on the Streets. So good. So very good. Not to mention the whole Richard Belzer TV Universe!

...but Sons of Anarchy? It had a severe Dexter problem (IMO). I absolutely loved the first few seasons, but it started to get ... bad. I watched the whole thing, and it never went "Full Lumberjack," but sometime around the Irish season it just lost a sense of direction.


----------



## payn (Jun 8, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Brief Comments:
> Haven't seen Ray Donovan, Black Sails, Nip Tuck, Counterpart, or A Brave New World.



I'd order viewing them like this;
Black Sails
Ray Donovan
Nip Tuck
Counterpart (I love this one but might fit better in a category with X-Files or Fringe)
A Brave New World
Mr. Mercedes (Sneaking another one in here this is Stephen King as it should have been done)

Ray Donovan, Mr Mercedes, and Brave New World are on Peacock which is free with commercial interruptions. If you have a cable sub still its free with 1-2 commercials per episode.

*Special note:* If The Sopranos is the series that took television to new heights and defined the premium cable series, then Nip Tuck is the network cable series that did the same. Nip Tuck opened the door for Breaking Bad/Saul, Sons of Anarchy/Mayans, Walking Dead, Fargo Series, etc.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Jun 8, 2021)

payn said:


> *Special note:* If The Sopranos is the series that took television to new heights and defined the premium cable series, then Nip Tuck is the network cable series that did the same. Nip Tuck opened the door for Breaking Bad/Saul, Sons of Anarchy/Mayans, Walking Dead, Fargo Series, etc.




Just to add to my general thoughts on the matter (which I may develop fully at some other date), it is saying something when I am currently in the middle of "binging" both _The Crown_ and _Billions_, and both of them are excellent shows with "name" actors doing amazing jobs, and they don't even scratch my honorable mentions.

There is, quite literally, so much great TV out there right now that ... I'd have to think about this ... but I would think that we'd have more great shows from 2010 on than we'd had in the entire history of TV prior to that. I don't mean "important to TV" shows; I mean incredibly directed, acted, and written shows- the level of talent that is in that industry right now is insane, and the talent and budget that used to go solely to making movies is now firmly in the TV camp.


----------



## DrunkonDuty (Jun 8, 2021)

amethal said:


> No Prisoner Cell Block H? (Apparently just called Prisoner in Australia.)




Oh man. I forgot this one. We'll just have to put it in at #11. Not that my list was in any sort of order of best to least best.


----------



## Bardic Dave (Jun 9, 2021)

Arilyn said:


> I know comedy is off the list, but Corner Gas!



Off the list for being Canadian! Not allowed!


----------



## Morrus (Jun 9, 2021)

Bardic Dave said:


> Off the list for being Canadian! Not allowed!



Also it got showed once on a full moon. Totally against the rules.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Jun 9, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Also it got showed once on a full moon. Totally against the rules.




Yeah, classifying things into weirdo categories like “drama” or “comedy” is so edgy and abnormal!

I totally earned my hipster exclusionary cred with that.


Getting rid of the Canadians is just a bonus, eh?


----------



## Bardic Dave (Jun 9, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Yeah, classifying things into weirdo categories like “drama” or “comedy” is so edgy and abnormal!
> 
> I totally earned my hipster exclusionary cred with that.
> 
> ...



It’s true, Canadian culture is a global scourge! Maple syrup, frigid cold and saying sorry? As a Canadian, I feel compelled to apologize.

In all seriousness, you’d probably have been better off restricting this to English language TV. You’d have gotten much less pushback.

Excluding British TV feels particularly problematic, given how much incredible British television there is. Not including it makes the discussion much less interesting.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Jun 9, 2021)

Bardic Dave said:


> It’s true, Canadian culture is a global scourge! Maple syrup, frigid cold and saying sorry? As a Canadian, I feel compelled to apologize.
> 
> In all seriousness, you’d probably have been better off restricting this to English language TV. You’g have gotten much less pushback.
> 
> Excluding British shows feels particularly problematic, given how much incredible British television there is. Not including it makes the discussion much less interesting.




i mean, this is why I bother writing explanations … that no one reads.

“2. It must be American. Or American-y (productions that are shot abroad that are mainly for American audiences and in English count as well). There is so very much good television from so many parts of the word, that the inclusion of some shows would lead to endless chaos. Call this the Borgen/BBC Rule, with the “Look kids, it’s Vancouver” exception.”

This shouldn’t be problematic because there is TOO MUCH good tv from around the world. I am not so pretentious that I think I could creditably list the WORLD’S best tv - even assuming I knew all the best tv from all the countries.


----------



## Morrus (Jun 9, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> i mean, this is why I bother writing explanations … that no one reads.
> 
> “2. It must be American. Or American-y (productions that are shot abroad that are mainly for American audiences and in English count as well). There is so very much good television from so many parts of the word, that the inclusion of some shows would lead to endless chaos. Call this the Borgen/BBC Rule, with the “Look kids, it’s Vancouver” exception.”
> 
> This shouldn’t be problematic because there is TOO MUCH good tv from around the world. I am not so pretentious that I think I could creditably list the WORLD’S best tv - even assuming I knew all the best tv from all the countries.



You definitely need that hug!

But do you really not get why “only American or made for Americans” in a thread about the greatest TV shows of all time rubs non-Americans the wrong way? I mean, as an American I assume you don’t run up against this brick wall of a mindset multiple times a day, so maybe you genuinely don’t get it? I dunno.

Don’t fret it though. I’m not claiming it’s a real hardship or anything. The pushback you’re getting is genuinely mild and good-natured. ‘Fraid you’ll just have to weather it! It’s all just a bit of fun.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Jun 9, 2021)

Morrus said:


> But do you really not get why “only American or made for Americans” in a thread about the greatest TV shows of all time rubs non-Americans the wrong way? I mean, as an American I assume you don’t run up against this brick wall of a mindset multiple times a day, so maybe you genuinely don’t get it? I dunno.




...and do you not get why I wrote that? I mean, sure, as an American and an English-speaking person, I could write a top 10 list without any criteria that would have been heavily slanted toward American shows (and to a lesser extent, British shows). But that would have been, IMO, much more obnoxious than explicitly excluding them. A lack of self-knowledge is what leads people to say that they are listing the best of something, and then only putting in their own culture's examples. "I'm an American, and English is my first language. so let's just assume that all those shows with the pesky subtitles... or that haven't even been subtitled ... don't exist."

But to be explicit- I think it is usually much worse for someone to implicitly claim that they are evaluating all the world's TV when they have limited experience with the best programs from other countries.

And yes- the whole point of that explanation (explicitly referencing British programs with the BBC and foreign language programs with Borgen) was to avoid this kind of unthinking pushback. Again, why bother?


----------



## DrunkonDuty (Jun 9, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> But to be explicit- I think it is usually much worse for someone to implicitly claim that they are evaluating all the world's TV when they have limited experience with the best programs from other countries.




I'm confused - is someone evaluating the lists people are putting here? I thought individuals were putting up lists their own favourite shows.


----------



## Bardic Dave (Jun 9, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> i mean, this is why I bother writing explanations … that no one reads.




Or, maybe people read your explanation and still didn’t like it? Just because you tried to anticipate a particular reaction and forestall it doesn’t mean people didn’t read your post if they nonetheless have that reaction.



Snarf Zagyg said:


> And yes- the whole point of that explanation (explicitly referencing British programs with the BBC and foreign language programs with Borgen) was to avoid this kind of unthinking pushback. Again, why bother?



It’s not unthinking just cause you don’t like it!


----------



## Marc Radle (Jun 9, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> So, here is the list. This Hall of Fame/Top 10 list is the product of maths, and therefore cannot be argued with, although you are welcome to make a case for other shows in the comments. Also? This is not an ordinal list; the rankings are not in order.
> 
> 1. _The Leftovers. _Perhaps the best finale ever, and the best show no one watched. Very few shows are as ambitious, well-written, and well-acted as this show.  Simply put, a tour de force.
> 
> ...




Interestingly, with the exception of Game of Thrones, I haven’t seen any of these ...


----------



## Stalker0 (Jun 9, 2021)

Imaculata said:


> Despite not sticking the landing during its final season, Game of Thrones was fantastic television for a very long time. Indeed as soon as they ran out of books, it all went down hill. But that was after about 5 fantastic seasons.



While I agree that the show declines noticeable in seasons 6 and 7.... it was still solid TV. It wasn't incredible like it was...but still solid.

I think what really kills GoT for me is how incredibly rushed the final season (number 8) was....and it did not have to be. This is not your classic "we are getting cancelled got to wrap this up". HBO is literally going "please showrunners, make more, we will give you money...you like money right....have some money". They had every green light to make a longer season, or hell 2 or 3 more seasons if they wanted.

But the showrunners said no they could do it in just a handful of episodes....and they were so rushed it felt like absolute hot garbage. Now I can respect that the guys were tired, or maybe wanted to do something else, or had a new opportunity, etc....these things happen. But you turn the reigns over to someone else, wish them good luck, and let the project continue...you don't just kill it so you can be over and done with it.

GoT is such a travesty for that reason. It rose so high, and fell incredibly far in that last season. Season 7 had its bad moments believe me....but it was still really enjoyable. Season 8 is watching your favorite toy get thrown into a garbage fire.


----------



## Imaculata (Jun 9, 2021)

Regarding Game of Thrones, what bothered me the most, is the character assassination of Daenerys in the last season, and in general how all characters end their journey. Emilia Clarke seemed so sad and depressed in interviews. She loved playing that character and she deserved better.

The ending for the Hound felt unfulfilling. The ending for Jamie and Cersei did not seem in line with where the books were heading, nor what GRRM intended. And that entire final battle that was way too dark to see what was going on, seemed like a massive post production blunder.

How do you finish work on an episode, look at it, realize that everyone's work is impossible to make out, and then decide that your work here is done? What the hell happened there? Days of stunt work, night shoots for cast and crew (which is no picknick), so much work for the make up and costume department... Not to mention months of hard work by CG artists, and then you make all their work invisible by incorrectly balancing the brightness in post production!

And sure, the Starbucks cup meme was funny for a while, even though they embarassed some of their actors by blaming it on them. But it really wasn't their fault. Actors have coffee in between scenes, there is nothing wrong with that. It is not their responsibility to make sure those cups aren't on screen once shooting resumes. It is indicative that someone in charge wasn't paying any attention during the final season.

And let me just put it out there that maybe several consequetive days of night shoots in the cold are not okay to put your actors through. The showrunners all have a big laugh about it in their "making of the episode", but it wrecks the actors. As cool as that Hard Home episode was, is it worth mistreating your cast and crew for?

In fact, that seems like a running theme with all their making ofs. "Yeah, we put Kit Harrington through hell for several days on end, and he was freezing his nuts off, but he just has to do it cause we said so. Ha ha! Hilarious! Smile to the camera Kit!"


----------



## Morrus (Jun 9, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> ...and do you not get why I wrote that? I mean, sure, as an American and an English-speaking person, I could write a top 10 list without any criteria that would have been heavily slanted toward American shows (and to a lesser extent, British shows). But that would have been, IMO, much more obnoxious than explicitly excluding them. A lack of self-knowledge is what leads people to say that they are listing the best of something, and then only putting in their own culture's examples. "I'm an American, and English is my first language. so let's just assume that all those shows with the pesky subtitles... or that haven't even been subtitled ... don't exist."
> 
> But to be explicit- I think it is usually much worse for someone to implicitly claim that they are evaluating all the world's TV when they have limited experience with the best programs from other countries.
> 
> And yes- the whole point of that explanation (explicitly referencing British programs with the BBC and foreign language programs with Borgen) was to avoid this kind of unthinking pushback. Again, why bother?



You’re clearly upset, which was not my intention. I’m sorry; I misjudged the situation. I’ll leave you to your threads. Enjoy!


----------



## payn (Jun 9, 2021)

Imaculata said:


> Regarding Game of Thrones, what bothered me the most, is the character assassination of Daenerys in the last season, and in general how all characters end their journey. Emilia Clarke seemed so sad and depressed in interviews. She loved playing that character and she deserved better.
> 
> The ending for the Hound felt unfulfilling. The ending for Jamie and Cersei did not seem in line with where the books were heading, nor what GRRM intended. And that entire final battle that was way too dark to see what was going on, seemed like a massive post production blunder.
> 
> ...



I didnt mind Daenerys taking a turn, she does have mad king blood in her. I just hated that developed over half an episode. I just had to say that I dont want to get started on how much better GoT could have been on the back half.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Jun 9, 2021)

payn said:


> I didnt mind Daenerys taking a turn, she does have mad king blood in her. I just hated that developed over half an episode. I just had to say that I dont want to get started on how much better GoT could have been on the back half.




I don't find the last season+ of GOT as terrible as everyone else; I just don't think it is quite as good as what came before. The primary problem isn't necessarily the way that the character arcs ended, it's the way that they got there. Daenerys, as you astutely point out- that made perfect sense, but the "heel turn" happened way too quickly and just wasn't properly supported.

The amazing thing about the earlier parts of GOT is that, for the most part, it was allowed to breathe. But after moving from the books, and especially in the last season, it became rushed. Given that we know that they were offered more shows to finish GOT and turn the offer down, part of me thinks that the showrunners were just burnt- it was a massive production, and keeping up that sustained level must have been exhausting.

To me, the problems they were having with distance and travel (during the last season, people just magically appeared were they needed to, despite the geographic distances) were a metaphor for the change- it went from being an incredibly realistic show (but, you know, with dragons and stuff) with intricate plots and character development to ... well, a high budget "good" show that failed to live up the lofty standards that it had set, which made it look that much worse in comparison.


----------



## Imaculata (Jun 9, 2021)

payn said:


> I didnt mind Daenerys taking a turn, she does have mad king blood in her. I just hated that developed over half an episode.




Oh, absolutely. It could have worked, if they had been patient with that plot line. Instead, they did her dirty. They suddenly changed her from a kind character, to a monster. It must have been horrible for Emilia to see her favourite character be treated that way.


----------



## Sithlord (Jun 9, 2021)

payn said:


> I dont typically like sit-coms, but Cheers was all sorts of greatness. All in the Family was amazing, I cant imagine anything like it ever hitting the small screen again.



Night court.


----------



## Zardnaar (Jun 11, 2021)

This is hard using that criteria. 

 In no particular order. 

Breaking Bad
The Wire
Sopranos

 Just watched all of the Sopranos recently, back in the day just watched the first few. I really like Justified as well. 

 I would include Simpsons but not allowed. Been watching season 6-17 recently. Very few if any dud episodes so far. 

 My secret guilt trip Survivor fight me. Been watching it for 20 years why stop now? Stargate Atlantis for one more.

Hmmmn Orange is the New Black I'll throw that one in. House of Cards was great but final season meh. 

Breaking Bad
The Wire
Justified
Sopranos
Survivor
Stargate Atlantis
Orange is the New Black

 Mindblank atm.


----------



## Zardnaar (Jun 11, 2021)

Imaculata said:


> Oh, absolutely. It could have worked, if they had been patient with that plot line. Instead, they did her dirty. They suddenly changed her from a kind character, to a monster. It must have been horrible for Emilia to see her favourite character be treated that way.




 Her turning wasn't a bad idea execution of it though.

 I've seen better heel turns in WWE/WWF and Revenge of the Sith. When Vince McMahon can do it better than you can......


----------



## Zardnaar (Jun 11, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Brief comments-
> 
> Mr. Robot and Legion are two of my favorite shows ever, but not necessarily top 10 (they were both honorable mention).
> 
> ...




 The show declined but never fell off a cliff. Also had a decent ending.


----------



## Marc_C (Jun 13, 2021)

Joe 90
Captain Scarlett
Thunderbirds
UFO
Space 1999
Battlestar Galactica TOS
Buck Rodgers in the 25th Century
ARK II
V the series
The Greatest American Hero.


----------



## Staffan (Jun 14, 2021)

meltdownpass said:


> Really hard to see Buffy/Angel belonging on this list. Too schlocky and too much filler (even if it's often well-done as far as that goes).



Strong disagreement on that. What you call filler, I call character-building.

This is actually one of my main beefs with the modern Trek shows (Discovery and Picard – I'll use Trek as an example because there isn't a modern version of Buffy): the crew are basically just extras. Since the seasons are so short and focused on the Big Story, there's no room to breathe and get to know anyone who isn't Burnham, Saru, Stamets, or the captain of the Season. Or maybe Tilly, a little. Discovery in particular has tried multiple times to make things "interesting" by doing something with another member of the bridge crew – Airam's sacrifice when corrupted by Control, Detmer needing to get her mojo back after crashing the Discovery when exiting the wormhole, and Owosekun being a badass retaking Discovery from the Emerald Chain. To me, all of these fell flat because *I do not know these people*. Compare this to Deep Space 9, where we get to know not only Sisko, Kira, and Dax, but also Bashir, Odo, Quark, Rom, Nog, Jake (OK, I could mostly do without Jake), Worf, Garak, O'Brien, Dukat, Damar, Winn. These are all interesting characters that we get to know and love/hate over the course of the series, precisely *because* of those "filler" episodes.

Modern short seasons work well when you only have one or at most a handful of important characters and the rest are literally there as supporting cast for the main characters. But they make for poor ensemble shows.



Stalker0 said:


> But the showrunners said no they could do it in just a handful of episodes....and they were so rushed it felt like absolute hot garbage. Now I can respect that the guys were tired, or maybe wanted to do something else, or had a new opportunity, etc....these things happen. But you turn the reigns over to someone else, wish them good luck, and let the project continue...you don't just kill it so you can be over and done with it.



My understanding was that Disney wanted D&D to do Star Wars, and they were all over that, and so they rushed to finish Game of Thrones. Of course, Game of Thrones season 8 ended in such a mess that Disney then told them "On second thought, no."


----------



## Ryujin (Jun 15, 2021)

Marc_C said:


> Joe 90
> Captain Scarlett
> Thunderbirds
> UFO
> ...



I rewatched "UFO" a couple of years back and just finished watching "Captain Scarlet" again. That moment when you realize that Captain Blue is Jack Straker....


----------



## Deset Gled (Jun 15, 2021)

Since people are complaining about GoT, I guess this as good of a point as any to go off on this tangent.

I don't think Breaking Bad belongs on the list.  After years of people raving about it, my wife and I started watching it during COVID.  She gave up after season one, and I gave up after season two.  It's just not that great of a show.  People rave about the characters, but I honestly think the characters in Breaking Bad have basically the same depth as the cast of It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, and are just as likeable.  Horrible people on the surface, mildly interesting quirks below that, but under that just more of the same horrible people you found on the top.  Some of the acting is good, but not all of it.  The plot is nowhere near as engaging or surprising as I was lead to believe.  The cinematography wobbles between good, okay, and over-the-top pretentious.  The writing and continuity are interesting, but not good enough to justify the lack of entertainment and enjoyment I got from watching it.

I'd rate Breaking Bad at about the same quality level as other well known dramas like, say, ER or Hill Street Blues.  Good.  Probably good enough at their peak to be "best of the year".  But nowhere near "Greatest of All Time" material.

Oh, and I do think that the comparison's between Breaking Bad and IASIP can go much further.  They're basically drama/comedy counterparts to each other.


----------



## payn (Jun 15, 2021)

Deset Gled said:


> Oh, and I do think that the comparison's between Breaking Bad and IASIP can go much further.



I can see that hot take. Although BB has a serious overtone, the show can be quite cheeky at times. 


> They're basically drama/comedy counterparts to each other.



I dont know about that though.


----------



## Deset Gled (Jun 15, 2021)

payn said:


> I dont know about that though.




I'm going to be lazy and copy/paste from Wikipedia.

This is the from the synopsis of IASIP:



> Each member of "The Gang" displays unethical behavior and traits such as excessive drinking and substance use, dishonesty, cruelty, selfishness, and egotism. Episodes usually find them hatching elaborate schemes and often conspiring against one another and others for personal gain, vengeance, or simply the entertainment of watching another's downfall. They habitually inflict mental, emotional, and physical pain on each other and anyone who crosses their path. They also regularly use blackmail to manipulate one another and others outside of the group.
> 
> The Gang's unity is never solid, and they will quickly dump any of the others for a quick profit or personal gain regardless of the consequences. Despite this, they ultimately return to their usual group dynamic due to their toxic codependency. Everything they do results in contention among themselves and much of the show's dialogue involves the characters arguing or yelling at one another.




I contend this synopsis works equally well for Breaking Bad, with only minor changes.

Also from Wikipedia:



> *Themes:*
> Moral consequences
> Devotion to family
> Pride




This time, it's from the Breaking Bad page.  But it's also basically the list of central themes to all of the plots and humor of IASIP.


----------



## payn (Jun 15, 2021)

Deset Gled said:


> I'm going to be lazy and copy/paste from Wikipedia.
> 
> This is the from the synopsis of IASIP:
> 
> ...



50% of television shows fall into those generalities.


----------



## Herschel (Dec 11, 2021)

Arilyn said:


> Leverage had no bad episodes. That's a feat worth noting.




There was one episode I didn't care for, which is still a ridiculously good track record. Burn Notice was even better. The cool thing about Burn Notice is in the final season, Michael was finally broken. He finally got what he wished for and it turned out to be a lie. Yes, he came back, but it was interesting to see how much gray surrounded him.


----------



## Arilyn (Dec 11, 2021)

Herschel said:


> There was one episode I didn't care for, which is still a ridiculously good track record. Burn Notice was even better. The cool thing about Burn Notice is in the final season, Michael was finally broken. He finally got what he wished for and it turned out to be a lie. Yes, he came back, but it was interesting to see how much gray surrounded him.



Just rewatched Leverage and there is one episode I'm not overly fond of. But an excellent track record. 

I like Burn Notice too, as well as White Collar, although White Collar has season finales that I'm not overly fond of.


----------



## Malmuria (Dec 11, 2021)

TWIN PEAKS


----------



## Gladius Legis (Dec 11, 2021)

I would not include The Simpsons, criteria or not, because it has been bad for more than twice as long as it's been good. Seasons 1-8 remain fantastic, 9-10 are a mixed bag with some good episodes and others clearly showing signs of decline, and everything from 11 on is worthless trash.


----------



## Zardnaar (Dec 11, 2021)

Gladius Legis said:


> I would not include The Simpsons, criteria or not, because it has been bad for more than twice as long as it's been good. Seasons 1-8 remain fantastic, 9-10 are a mixed bag with some good episodes and others clearly showing signs of decline, and everything from 11 on is worthless trash.




 I don't think it's that had I'm into the 20's and good episodes are few and far between. It peaked 3-8 or so but I thought next ten or so we're mostly decent. Still not good enough for a top ten list though. 

 But the 20's mein gott. Took a break to watch White Collar (great) and Criminal Minds (decent).


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Dec 11, 2021)

Gladius Legis said:


> I would not include The Simpsons, criteria or not, because it has been bad for more than twice as long as it's been good. Seasons 1-8 remain fantastic, 9-10 are a mixed bag with some good episodes and others clearly showing signs of decline, and everything from 11 on is worthless trash.












						And the Animation: Greatest TV, Part IV
					

Prior threads on Greatest TV Shows-  Part I, Drama. Part II, Comedies. Part III, Science Fiction.  I'm wrapping up this week's look at the great TV shows with my fourth, and FINAL, installment. This is about the animated TV shows. Instead of providing my usual list of criteria that I use in...




					www.enworld.org


----------



## Ryujin (Dec 11, 2021)

Malmuria said:


> TWIN PEAKS



Every time someone mentions that show I have a flashback to when I was in the town where it was shot, didn't know it, and was constantly having little episodes of _deja vu_. Thinking, "I know that I've never been here. It's familiar, and yet somehow _wrong_."


----------



## TheSword (Mar 9, 2022)

I’m surprised that nobody has mentioned the West Wing. Frequently cited in the top TV series of all time.

Has some really powerful drama, amazing actors and a really mature  view on the world. Sorkin at his best.


----------



## payn (Mar 9, 2022)

TheSword said:


> I’m surprised that nobody has mentioned the West Wing. Frequently cited in the top TV series of all time.
> 
> Has some really powerful drama, amazing actors and a really mature  view on the world. Sorkin at his best.



Lost in the shuffle I think. Lots of premo cable stuff ate its lunch.


----------



## Mannahnin (Mar 9, 2022)

I've watched the first four seasons and started the 5th.  I think it's the most of any one TV series I've watched, except maybe Star Trek: Next Gen.

Not all of it has aged well, but it was a great show.


----------



## amethal (Mar 10, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> 3. _The Americans. _The show that consistently delighted in denying viewers the show that they wanted, and instead giving them the show they deserved.  In addition, the show contained some of the best musical moments of any TV show, ever.  From the beginning, with the use of Tusk immediately dropping you into this world, to the end (the obvious, yet perfect, use of With or Without You), to everything in between (Yellow Brick Road, We Do What We're Told), few series have paired music as perfectly with the visuals as the Americans.



Thank you so much for mentioning the Americans. 

I'd never heard of it, and when I did look it up the premise really didn't grab me, but I gave it a try based on your recommendation and it was amazing from start to finish. My wife loved it as well, although she did find some parts too gory to watch.


----------



## payn (Mar 10, 2022)

amethal said:


> Thank you so much for mentioning the Americans.
> 
> I'd never heard of it, and when I did look it up the premise really didn't grab me, but I gave it a try based on your recommendation and it was amazing from start to finish. My wife loved it as well, although she did find some parts too gory to watch.



I really enjoyed it, but the last season was hard to watch. I wished it had ended stronger.


----------



## Gladius Legis (Mar 18, 2022)

TheSword said:


> I’m surprised that nobody has mentioned the West Wing. Frequently cited in the top TV series of all time.
> 
> Has some really powerful drama, amazing actors and a really mature  view on the world. Sorkin at his best.



The West Wing has aged EXTREMELY poorly. And I would call its view on the world anything but "mature." "Naive" would be one word for it.


----------



## Mannahnin (Mar 18, 2022)

Gladius Legis said:


> The West Wing has aged EXTREMELY poorly. And I would call its view on the world anything but "mature." "Naive" would be one word for it.



A lot of compromises and pyrrhic victories in that show; though certainly the level of idealism was still unrealistic.


----------



## Ryujin (Mar 18, 2022)

Gladius Legis said:


> The West Wing has aged EXTREMELY poorly. And I would call its view on the world anything but "mature." "Naive" would be one word for it.



Sometimes it's nice to have something that shows what you should strive for, rather than the cesspool that you must currently wade through.


----------



## TheSword (Mar 18, 2022)

Gladius Legis said:


> The West Wing has aged EXTREMELY poorly. And I would call its view on the world anything but "mature." "Naive" would be one word for it.



I disagree, it was and still is very good.
It features highly dedicated and passionate public servants doing the best they can. Most of the big topics are as relevant today as they were 20 years ago.


----------



## LongTimeLurker (Mar 18, 2022)

Cadence said:


> M*A*S*H
> 
> Also, lack of comedies because it is too hard is sad.



Mash is a better show (and has aged well too) than every other show on this list. In fact MASH and Seinfeld are, by far, the two best American TV shows ever created and only The Larry David Show even comes close. MASH was even a better drama than all the shows listed. Disqualifying  comedies is nonsense.


----------



## Gladius Legis (Mar 18, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Sometimes it's nice to have something that shows what you should strive for, rather than the cesspool that you must currently wade through.



The problem is a lot of people watch that show and think that's how it actually works.

The West Wing could work if it was explicitly a fairy tale, but it clearly doesn't present itself that way.


----------



## Gladius Legis (Mar 18, 2022)

TheSword said:


> It features highly dedicated and passionate public servants doing the best they can.



Which is EXACTLY why it doesn't work.


----------



## Ryujin (Mar 18, 2022)

Gladius Legis said:


> The problem is a lot of people watch that show and think that's how it actually works.
> 
> The West Wing could work if it was explicitly a fairy tale, but it clearly doesn't present itself that way.



The law works how it does in "The West Wing." The people don't. It's an idealized version of what The United States could/should be. America isn't the way that it appears in a Frank Capra movie, but that in no way impacts my enjoyment of them. It's the way that he thought his America should be.


----------



## Gladius Legis (Mar 19, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> The law works how it does in "The West Wing." The people don't. It's an idealized version of what The United States could/should be. America isn't the way that it appears in a Frank Capra movie, but that in no way impacts my enjoyment of them. It's the way that he thought his America should be.



Well, I find depictions of an idealized America, and especially the American political system, to be a very distasteful and frankly dangerous concept nowadays. Especially when you compare it to a reality where it is indeed the people who have and will always get in the way of anything ideal ever happening in it.


----------



## Ryujin (Mar 19, 2022)

Gladius Legis said:


> Well, I find depictions of an idealized America, and especially the American political system, to be a very distasteful and frankly dangerous concept nowadays. Especially when you compare it to a reality where it is indeed the people who have and will always get in the way of anything ideal ever happening in it.



And yet you don't generally influence people to do good, by giving them examples of bad. Especially so when you show people profiting from the bad.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Mar 19, 2022)

LongTimeLurker said:


> Mash is a better show (and has aged well too) than every other show on this list. In fact MASH and Seinfeld are, by far, the two best American TV shows ever created and only The Larry David Show even comes close. MASH was even a better drama than all the shows listed. Disqualifying  comedies is nonsense.




It's almost as if there is a whole description in the OP about why comedies aren't included ...

and an entire additional post about the greatest comedies.









						The Greatest TV Shows of All Time Part 2: HA HA! Comedy Illustrated
					

If you haven't seen it yet, then here is Part 1 - the Dramas. Oh, the DRAMA! You'd think that people would be understanding if you create a list of shows and put forth reasons for having the list exclusive (such as American shows, and no Comedies) given that you were only doing 10, but, of...




					www.enworld.org
				




Seriously, at a certain point it's like ... why bother with words? it's not like people read them.


----------



## Cadence (Mar 19, 2022)

B


Snarf Zagyg said:


> It's almost as if there is a whole description in the OP about why comedies aren't included ...
> 
> and an entire additional post about the greatest comedies.
> 
> ...



But you write so many... and there is so little time!


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Mar 19, 2022)

Cadence said:


> B
> 
> But you write so many... and there is so little time!




The food is terrible, and the portions are too big!


----------



## Cadence (Mar 19, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> The food is terrible, and the portions are too big!



The sweetest pie should be in the smallest slices.  Well, not as small as the worst pie.


----------



## Gladius Legis (Mar 19, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> And yet you don't generally influence people to do good, by giving them examples of bad. Especially so when you show people profiting from the bad.



Well, clearly, The West Wing hasn't influenced anyone to do good, either.


----------



## TheSword (Mar 19, 2022)

Gladius Legis said:


> Well, clearly, The West Wing hasn't influenced anyone to do good, either.



I think maybe you miss the point. West Wing doesn’t portray the world as being ideal, world is pretty universally adversarial, it portrays the key characters optimistically… though they have their own flaws, priorities and personalities.

If your criticism of West Wing is that the characters aren’t venal enough, then I would say that is a feature not a flaw.


----------



## Gladius Legis (Mar 19, 2022)

TheSword said:


> it portrays the key characters optimistically… though they have their own flaws, priorities and personalities.
> 
> If your criticism of West Wing is that the characters aren’t venal enough, then I would say that is a feature not a flaw.



It's a feature of an inherently flawed concept. Politicians being portrayed optimistically ruins my suspension of disbelief, especially when it's a show that clearly portrays a strong sense of verisimilitude otherwise.

And the dialogue, well, it's Aaron Sorkin. And all the preachy and didactic annoyance that implies.


----------



## TheSword (Mar 19, 2022)

Gladius Legis said:


> It's a feature of an inherently flawed concept. Politicians being portrayed optimistically ruins my suspension of disbelief, especially when it's a show that clearly portrays a strong sense of verisimilitude otherwise.
> 
> And the dialogue, well, it's Aaron Sorkin. And all the preachy and didactic annoyance that implies.



Ahh cool. You don’t like Aaron Sorkin, well that ok, and makes a lot more sense, as it is very much his work, for the first few seasons at least.

I think you probably need a greater sense of optimism to enjoy it. Though there are plenty of dishonest and mercenary politicians just not the key characters. It’s not their story he’s telling.


----------



## DrunkonDuty (Mar 21, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> The food is terrible, and the portions are too big!




Aw man. I heard this line just the other night. Cannot remember what I was watching. _Human Resources_? 

I know, I know, you never confirm the sources of your quotes.


----------



## Mallus (Mar 21, 2022)

I realize it's kinda new, but Station Eleven just vaulted into my Top 10.


----------



## Mannahnin (Apr 1, 2022)

DrunkonDuty said:


> Aw man. I heard this line just the other night. Cannot remember what I was watching. _Human Resources_?
> 
> I know, I know, you never confirm the sources of your quotes.



It's a variant on a super old New York joke.  Woody Allen quotes it in Annie Hall (1977):

“There's an old joke - um... two elderly women are at a Catskill mountain resort, and one of 'em says, "Boy, the food at this place is really terrible." The other one says, "Yeah, I know; and such small portions." Well, that's essentially how I feel about life - full of loneliness, and misery, and suffering, and unhappiness, and it's all over much too quickly.”​


----------



## DrunkonDuty (Apr 1, 2022)

AH! I should really have gotten that. Thanks, @Mannahnin.


----------

