# Baseball discussion thread



## Krug (Sep 29, 2003)

1st pick: My A's, FINALLY.

2nd pick: Anyone BUT the Yankees.


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## Enforcer (Sep 29, 2003)

Go Cubbies! I'd love to see them beat the Yankees in the series (beating the Yankees would just feel better).

If the Cubs don't make it, however, I'd like to see the Red Sox take it...or anyone besides the Yankees.


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## Synicism (Sep 30, 2003)

Now I understand the frustration of Cubs' fans, whose team hasn't won a Series since God was a baby, but dammit, I've been a Yankee fan since they sucked back in the 80's. I feel entitled to enjoy their success. Hehe.

But if they don't make it to the Series, it'd be nice to see the Cubs actually not blow a good thing for a change.


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## BOZ (Sep 30, 2003)

too bad there are no OT polls.


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## Morpheus (Sep 30, 2003)

How is everyone going to feel when the Yankess _do_ win it all?   

Me


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## John Crichton (Sep 30, 2003)

I'm a Yankee fan.  I also suffered through the 80's and never knew the 70's (I was born in '77) teams.  Sure, they have won alot but they have earned it within the system.  If the Yanks don't make it I would love to see a Sox/Cubs series with the Cubs winning as my grandfather was a huge Cubs fan.

None of the teams have a big advantage right now and they all have a weakness somewhere.  Should be interesting...


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## Alaric_Prympax (Sep 30, 2003)

Though I was raised in Louisiana I was born in New Haven, CT and my Dad's family are Yankee fans, thus I'm one too!

I've been to Yankee Stadium 3 times.  The first was the Pine Tar Bat Game!  Yes! I was there!


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## Starman (Sep 30, 2003)

Life long Cubs fan here. I'd sacrifice my first born if I thought it would help them win.    I hope they do, but I'm not holding my breath. I refused to get too excited during the regular season until the day they clinched. I've been let down too many times to get my hopes up too much.   

Go Cubbies!  

Starman


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## Agamon (Sep 30, 2003)

I'm all for anyone but the Yankees.

But I'm with Jim Rome when he says it should be the Red Sox vs the Cubs in the WS, and then the losing team's fans can commit mass suicide


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## Mista Collins (Sep 30, 2003)

See, what you guys don't realize is the the Detroit Tigers are gonna win it. They have the best record out there..... opps wait a second. I forgot I have dyslexia. Too bad they were a loss short of tying the worst all-time baseball record. We can never do anything right


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## garyh (Sep 30, 2003)

Now that my Angels won it last year, I'm not so worried about the playoffs.   I'd love to see a Cubs/Red Sox series just to see how they'd both end up losing the series somehow.


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## Krug (Sep 30, 2003)

As over Red Sox in 4.
Twins over Yanks in 3. 
Giants over Marlins in 5
Cubs over Braves in 4

As over Twins in 6
Giants over Cubs in 5

As over Giants in 7.


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## TiQuinn (Sep 30, 2003)

What I'm hoping for: Giants Vs. A's, and San Francisco's first World Series win.

What I fear most in this world: Braves Vs. Yankees, and I decide to watch Nova on PBS or Survivor instead.

As for the Cubbies, they'll find out why Dusty Baker needs to take a vacation every October, and let someone else handle coaching duties come playoff-time.

But I'm not bitter!  Noooooo, not by a long shot!


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## GreenMonster (Sep 30, 2003)

*All I gotta say- YANKEES SUCK!!*

Red Sox over Cubs in 7!!!

Mass hystaria erupts in boston...city burns to the ground! Red Sox are left with no home and bought out by George Steinbrenner for double what they were being paid in Boston. He then fires all the loosers that currently call themselves yankees starting with that second rate hack shortstop jeter (who swallows by the way)!

RED SOX 03!!!!


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## schporto (Sep 30, 2003)

Yankees burn.  Yankee go home.  "But we earned it within the system" - BAH!!!  You bought it.  Burn burn burn.  Fraggin piece o' dung.  Gad hate Yankees.  Who do I want to win?  I want there to be 29 world series with the yankees losing every friggin single one of em.  All the other teams get one.  Sick of announcers crooning and swooning "Ohhhh the house that ruth built"  Burn it down!! "Curse of the Bambino" Get an exorcist!  "We love Jeter" - over-friggin-rated.  "But he's so cute in those comercials with Steinbrener" - play ball not comercials.  "They've played hurt all year they're truly warriors" - And?  That's why their salary is huge they can afford other players.  And finally Georgie Porgie - Bite me.
Ok....  Breathe....
In case it wasn't completely obvious I'm a Red Sox fan.  Grew up as a Yankee hater.  So I'm rooting for the Sox.  But honestly I'll be real happy within anyone but Yankees or Braves winning.  I like when new teams win.  All the other teams really have a story behind them.  The only story for the yanks is - "Look we paid them enough to win the series".  
And yes I know the BoSox ain't far behind in payroll.
Must control twitching fists, no punch monitor.  Calm happy thoughts.
-cpd


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## Westwind (Sep 30, 2003)

Red Sox.  Please.  I was 11 years old in 1986 and I was almost over it before the 1999 ALCS (he as safe!).  Please.

I've already told my fiancee that I NEED to be in Boston for any potential WS-clinching game.


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## Gnome Berzerker (Sep 30, 2003)

Mista Collins said:
			
		

> See, what you guys don't realize is the the Detroit Tigers are gonna win it. They have the best record out there..... opps wait a second. I forgot I have dyslexia. Too bad they were a loss short of tying the worst all-time baseball record. We can never do anything right





You'll never catch the Mets!  Bwah ha ha ha!  Oh, wait...


Anyway, as a lifelong Mets fan, as long as it isn't the Braves or Yankees, I'll be happy.


A World Series matchup of either Cubs/BoSox or Giants/Yankees would be the making of a great 2003 WS.


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## Dimwhit (Sep 30, 2003)

Go Braves!!

It's funny, but they're tied for the best record in baseball, yet few give them a chance. Probably because they've lost, what, 4 world series in the last 12 years? At least they've won one.

I had to suffer through the 80's with the Braves. I'd sure like to see them win one more.

If not them, then I'm pulling for the Twins (my long-time AL team).


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## Crispy Critter (Sep 30, 2003)

*Red Sox*

Life-long Sox fan.

We've lost 8 straight againts the A's in the playoffs. One ghost exorcised.

We never beat the Yankees. Two ghosts exorcised.

Cubs-Red Sox in the World Series. Well, someone's got to win it. Third ghost exorcised.

Red Sox Win!


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## Alaska Roberts (Sep 30, 2003)

Go Cubs!!!! Damn I don't think I've ever been this hopeful before, they usually suck so bad it's not even worth thinking about past June.  Please oh Please let them make the series.

Alaska


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## Mark Chance (Sep 30, 2003)

Who's going to win? That depends entirely on who the Mafia bets on.


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## Taren Nighteyes (Sep 30, 2003)

GO YANKEES!

Baseball - Yankees
Football - Giants
Hockey - NJ Devils
Basketball - Who cares?   

Needless to say, the last couple of years have been very kind to this former Joisey Boy   

Taren Nighteyes


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## Cthulhu's Librarian (Sep 30, 2003)

Once a New Yorker, always a New Yorker. 

GO YANKEES! 

Not that I really care about baseball, but after growing up in the late 70s in NY, how can I not want the Yankees to take it all?


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## John Crichton (Sep 30, 2003)

schporto said:
			
		

> Yankees burn. Yankee go home. "But we earned it within the system" - BAH!!! You bought it. Burn burn burn. Fraggin piece o' dung. Gad hate Yankees. Who do I want to win? I want there to be 29 world series with the yankees losing every friggin single one of em. All the other teams get one. Sick of announcers crooning and swooning "Ohhhh the house that ruth built" Burn it down!! "Curse of the Bambino" Get an exorcist! "We love Jeter" - over-friggin-rated. "But he's so cute in those comercials with Steinbrener" - play ball not comercials. "They've played hurt all year they're truly warriors" - And? That's why their salary is huge they can afford other players. And finally Georgie Porgie - Bite me.
> Ok.... Breathe....
> In case it wasn't completely obvious I'm a Red Sox fan. Grew up as a Yankee hater. So I'm rooting for the Sox. But honestly I'll be real happy within anyone but Yankees or Braves winning. I like when new teams win. All the other teams really have a story behind them. The only story for the yanks is - "Look we paid them enough to win the series".
> And yes I know the BoSox ain't far behind in payroll.
> ...



I think they have a cream or pills or something for what you have, there.  You may also want to cut down on the bile.  Remember, Eric's grandmum is watching too....


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## jaerdaph (Sep 30, 2003)

GO YANKEES!!!!


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## Stormfalcon (Sep 30, 2003)

On one hand, I'd love to see a Bay Bridge Series (Go Giants!).  On the other hand, I remember what happened the last time we had a Bay Bridge Series...


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## stevelabny (Sep 30, 2003)

I couldn't resist joining in.
My pre-season pick was Yankees over Expos in 7. But a decimated pitching staff (no El Duque or Tony Armas Jr all season) and a Vlad injury prevented the 'spos from doing thier job.

But lesse, I made picks on the MLB site so I'll stick with them

Cubs over Braves in 4 
Cubs staff is too good right now and Aramis Ramirez is EN FUEGO. Plus Javy Lopez just said there's no way the Cubs can beat them. 

Giants over Marlins in 5 
Fish have done well, but they switched closers LAST WEEK. Bullpen confidence shot and in chaos, bases loaded for Barry? ACK

Yankees over Twins in 3
They waited too long to move Santana into the rotation, now hes their ace? 
Yanks OWN Twins. 

A's over Red Sox in 5 
It's October, that must mean the Sox are losing. Nothing makes me happier than a good 1918 chant.

Cubs over Giants in 7 
Jason Schmidt is great, but theres only one of him. Dusty will know how to handle his ex-team and the Cubs pitchers are good enough to 

Yanks over A's in 6
The A's were the best team in baseball the last 3 years, and have NOTHING to show for it. Now with no Mulder, theyre NOT. Billy Beane has some good ideas, but some really stupid ones too.  This franchise (and Toronto and Boston) will be in trouble if they dont get their heads out of their pretentious saber-metric butts.

Yanks over Cubs in 7
Why? 
1. The Cubs can't win a World Series
2. Yes, I am a Yankees fan
3. Mariano Rivera is MUCH better than Joe Borowoski
4. Soriano is still mad that Torre played the infield in against the D-Backs and cost him the World Series winning HR. He will get his revenge.
5. Prior's excessive pitch counts haven't affected him yet...but 6 more starts from now he's due to melt down.

Interesting note: these players were on my fantasy team
C: Jason Varitek, Red Sox
1B : Derrek Lee, Marlins
3B: Aramis Ramirez, Cubs
OF: Juan Encarnacion, Marlins; Hideki Matsui, Yankees; Andruw Jones, Braves
SP: Mark Prior, Cubs; Jason Schmidt, Giants; Johann Santana,Twins
RP: Braden Looper, Marlins; Tim Worrell, Giants; 

but somehow I only managed to finish 3rd.  
I'll stop rambling now, its game time.


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## Dimwhit (Sep 30, 2003)

> On one hand, I'd love to see a Bay Bridge Series (Go Giants!). On the other hand, I remember what happened the last time we had a Bay Bridge Series...



I was there for that. Quite a ride.

I grew up in the Bay Area and disliked both teams. I always thought of it as a 'wrath of god' thing.

I just wish no one had died there. Would have been fun otherwise.

If they both make it to the Series, you can bet the discussion on that will pick up quite a bit!


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## Estlor (Sep 30, 2003)

Anyone but the Braves and Yankees.

Please God, let them lose early!!!!

Ahem, sorry about that.

Just as long as the Cubs don't win.  That, surely, will be the first signal that the apocalypse is at hand.


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## beldar1215 (Sep 30, 2003)

Go Cubbies!!!! This is long overdue!!!!!


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## jeffsforehead (Sep 30, 2003)

Haha, it's not going to be the freaking Padres, that's for sure. You go to a Padres game, and they give you 1998 memorabilia... kinda like, "well, we went to the World Series, once..."

It's horribly depressing.


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## Xeriar (Sep 30, 2003)

> Yankees over Twins in 3
> They waited too long to move Santana into the rotation, now hes their ace?
> Yanks OWN Twins.




Not today


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## Dimwhit (Sep 30, 2003)

> Not today





One down, two to go! Go Twinnies!


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## stevelabny (Sep 30, 2003)

the funny thing is , i was just telling a twins fan how defense is over-rated. and the yanks gave up 3 runs on nothing but bad defense. 

oh-well. these things happen.


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## Krug (Sep 30, 2003)

Well the Yankees have been here before. Twins still need two more wins. Come on! Dump those spankees!


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## Liminal Syzygy (Oct 1, 2003)

I'm rooting for the Hanshin Tigers myself.


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## TiQuinn (Oct 1, 2003)

Wow, Schmidt looked AWESOME yesterday for the G-Men.  Don't know about Ponson...he hasn't shown me much yet.


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## The_Universe (Oct 1, 2003)

Having grown up in rural South Dakota, where the closest MLB team was a 6 hour drive to the Hubert H. Humphrey Metrodome, all I can say is GO TWINS!  The Yanks got money, but they ain't got HEART!  

HUZZAH!

TWINS TWINS TWINS TWINS TWINS TWINS TWINS TWINS TWINS!!!!!


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## TiQuinn (Oct 1, 2003)

It fills my heart with warm, buttery goodness to know that the Braves AND the Yankees both lost yesterday.

Of course, too much warm, buttery goodness in my heart is probably bad for my health....


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## jaerdaph (Oct 1, 2003)

In the immortal words of Yogi Berra,

It ain't over until it's over.

GO YANKEES!!!!


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## dagger (Oct 1, 2003)

Baseball championships are won by pitching and defense........just like in football and basketball, your defense wins you the championship. Because when your bats (or shooting, etc) dose not show up, your defense all ways does, and it can keep you in games when you would otherwise lose.



			
				stevelabny said:
			
		

> the funny thing is , i was just telling a twins fan how defense is over-rated. and the yanks gave up 3 runs on nothing but bad defense.
> 
> oh-well. these things happen.


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## ASH (Oct 1, 2003)

Well, growing up I moved alot. But I lived either in Minnesota or a state  bordering it. So, I totally belive its time that the Minnesota started winning things again.
New York has had plenty of wins in the past few years. Go Twins!!!


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## Enforcer (Oct 1, 2003)

Mark one down for the Cubbies! As for Atlanta, you gotta love how they can't even fill their stands during the playoffs! Such devotion! No wonder their much-lauded offense couldn't get the job done last night...

Wait and see what happens when they go to Wrigley, the Braves will be too stunned with learning what real fans are like to possibly win; they'll just lie down and cry.

Cubs fans are the greatest fans in the world, period.


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## stevelabny (Oct 1, 2003)

baseball championships are NOT won on defense. its pitching and clutch-hitting.
if youre pitching is on, bad defense will only cost you a run a game.
if the yanks werent 1-10 in with RISP yesterday, they still woulda won their comedy of errors.


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## Tom Cashel (Oct 1, 2003)

schporto said:
			
		

> Yankees burn.  Yankee go home.  "But we earned it within the system" - BAH!!!  You bought it.  Burn burn burn.  Fraggin piece o' dung.  Gad hate Yankees.




If you hate the Yanks so much, why is your whole post about them?

Love 'em or hate 'em, they dominate all.  You will bow to them.  You have no perception of baseball that does not include the world-famous Yankees.  Wow, that must really burn you Yank-haters...

...the jealousy, I mean.   

Go Yankees!


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## ph34r (Oct 1, 2003)

*World Series*

I hope the Red Sox win it all but that's highly unlikely with the trouble they always get from the Yankees.


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## Krug (Oct 4, 2003)

Boy the Giants really blew that one, stranding like 18 men on base and making tons of errors. Oh well.. Go As!


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## Mark (Oct 4, 2003)

Go Cubs...


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## AeroDm (Oct 4, 2003)

Gotta go with the Twinkies here people.  And not just because I live in Minnesota and go to school at the U of Minn (maybe it is).  Its because the Twins are the ultimate underdogs.  Young team, low pay, constantly told that they are crap by the White Sox... but we spanked 'em.  Go Twinkies!


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## jokamachi (Oct 4, 2003)

The Giants have a superb history of putting a game in their pocket only to have it snatched away at the last second. Last year was heartbreaking. Is this one going to be any different?


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## stevelabny (Oct 4, 2003)

the twins are still underdogs? isnt this their second consecutive division title? immediately following a strong 2nd place finish? hasnt the core of the team already been together in the majors for 3-4 years? and together even longer in the minors? 

its nonsense like this that irks me. thw twins are NOT underdogs. if you want respect and credit for being a good team, you have to drop the underdog label. you CAN'T have it both ways. 

they went to the ALCS last year. the a's, red sox and yankees DIDN'T.
THEREFORE, the twins are the FAVORITE this year. you hear me? the twins are the FAVORITE. theyre SUPPOSED to win. how do you like them apples?

i'm constantly amazed at how ridiculous baseball fans are when it comes to the yankees. they are no different than any other team. there are plenty of teams that have big payrolls and SUCK. its not just about payroll. and again, the yanks payroll is so high cuz they have 6 people with 4 rings and a few more with 1 or 2 or 3 and you have to pay for those rings.

also, maybe some of you clueless dolts will finally realize after seeing the dbacks and angels win the last two world series and then do nothing...how IMPOSSIBLE  it is to win a world series, make the playoffs again the next year, and WIN THREE MORE PLAYOFF SERIES.  (let alone three years in a row and 4 out of 5) the extra rouns of playoffs raise the bar of difficulty soooo high its insane. none of the dynasties of the past would ever have won as many series playing 3 rounds.The yankee team 96-00 is the best team of all time. this isnt a team to pick on or complain about but to revel in and enjoy. the same way great teams of the past are always fondly remembered. thats what this team deserves. not petty jealousy.

im sorry, but this thread was disgusting, and thew twins are the underdogs thing was the final straw. maybe theyll win the world series and be the underdogs again next year?


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## drothgery (Oct 5, 2003)

As I write this...

The Fish have eliminated the Giants.
The Cubs and Braves are tied with two games each.

The Yankees have a 2 games to 1 lead on the Twins.
And the A's have a 2-0 lead on the Red Sox, with game 3 a 1-1 tie in the 7th.

Having said that...
The Braves will probably win, then knock of the Marlins.
The A's and Yankees will advance (based on the fact that they're leading their respective series), with the A's getting to the World Series (because I have to go for the California team, and they're not the Yankees).

Oakland wins the thing, because the only time the Braves actually won the series, it was against the Indians (who I support in sickness and in health), and something had to give.


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## drothgery (Oct 5, 2003)

Taren Nighteyes said:
			
		

> Basketball - Who cares?
> 
> Taren Nighteyes



Y'know, the Nets have been to the finals two years in a row. If you're a Jersey fan, it'd seem like this might matter.


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## WhatKu (Oct 5, 2003)

Wow. That was an astoundingly awful call in the Oakland/Atlanta game.


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## drothgery (Oct 5, 2003)

dagger said:
			
		

> Baseball championships are won by pitching and defense........just like in football and basketball, your defense wins you the championship. Because when your bats (or shooting, etc) dose not show up, your defense all ways does, and it can keep you in games when you would otherwise lose.



Sure. The Rams, Broncos, and 49ers didn't win Super Bowls recently with great offense and average defense. That was only an illusion. The Braves haven't lost every World Series they've been to except one (admittedly to an Indians team that got there on offense). I must have been seeing things. The Bulls didn't win six NBA titles by relying on the best offensive player in the game, and the Lakers didn't win two that way either.


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## drothgery (Oct 5, 2003)

WhatKu said:
			
		

> Wow. That was an astoundingly awful call in the Oakland/Atlanta game.



Okay, I'm confused. Did you mean in the Oakland/Boston game, the Atlanta/Chicago game, my projection of an Oakland/Atlanta World Series, or some Oakland/Atlanta contest I'm unfamiliar with?


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## Morpheus (Oct 6, 2003)

Sorry Yankee haters...To the ALCS (maybe against the Sox)


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## thalmin (Oct 6, 2003)

Hey, Hey! The Cubs just beat the Braves 5 - 1. Holy Cow!


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## Cold Beer (Oct 6, 2003)

thalmin said:
			
		

> Hey, Hey! The Cubs just beat the Braves 5 - 1. Holy Cow!




HOLY COW!

**hands out ice cold budwisers**

Too bad Harry couldn't be here to see this...


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## JoeBlank (Oct 6, 2003)

Holy Cow is right! What is this poor Braves fan to do?

Guess I'll be a Cub fan for while. If they have to eliminate the Braves, they better go ahead and win it all.


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## stevelabny (Oct 6, 2003)

JoeBlank said:
			
		

> What is this poor Braves fan to do?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Dinkeldog (Oct 6, 2003)

I don't think it's disgusting.  

More October baseball for us!


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## Aulayan (Oct 6, 2003)

The Cubs have fans in every town.  
And, Alot of Cubs fans have flown into Atlanta to turn Turner field into Wrigley Field South.  That's why the fan eruptions when the cubs did good.


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## stevelabny (Oct 6, 2003)

Aulayan said:
			
		

> The Cubs have fans in every town.
> And, Alot of Cubs fans have flown into Atlanta to turn Turner field into Wrigley Field South.  That's why the fan eruptions when the cubs did good.




its NOT disgusting from a cubs point of view. they have fans. fans who even travelled to another city to see their win. thats GOOD.

its disgsting from a braves fan point of view. WHERE ARE THE BRAVES FANS?
there are none. that stadium never sells out for a playoff game.

you try getting into yankee stadium or wrigley or fenway to root for the other team. it aint happening. sure, there will be some scalpers selling tickets at outrageous prices BUT all the non-scalped tickets are scooped up minutes after they go on sale by fans of the HOME TEAM.

repeat: good for cubs fans. disgusting for braves fans. do you guys understand now?


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## Brown Jenkin (Oct 6, 2003)

Just wait till next year.

Oh wait, next year is finally here.

Go Cubs.


Why is it that the Cubs are the lovable losers and have fans all across the county while the Red Sox who have been losers almost as long only seem to have fans in Boston? I personally am hoping for a Cubs-Yankees series, and I bet MLB and Fox is too since this would likely produce the highest ratings of any of the possible matchups. I adopted the Yankees when I lived in New York for several years and had a free spot in the AL to choose a team to root for since as a Cubs fan I can't root for the White Sox.


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## Sirius_Black (Oct 6, 2003)

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> Why is it that the Cubs are the lovable losers and have fans all across the county while the Red Sox who have been losers almost as long only seem to have fans in Boston?




Ever met any Red Sox fans?   My past experiences with some of them definitely leaves me with little suprise regarding your above statement.


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## BOZ (Oct 6, 2003)

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> I don't think it's disgusting.
> 
> More October baseball for us!




i'm with you fellow chicagolander!


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## jaerdaph (Oct 6, 2003)

Sirius_Black said:
			
		

> Ever met any Red Sox fans?   My past experiences with some of them definitely leaves me with little suprise regarding your above statement.




Red Sox fans are also some of the quickest to leave the game early when their team is down that I have ever seen in the Major League.


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## nopantsyet (Oct 7, 2003)

*[OT] Red Sox, OMG!!!*

That's all I can say.  Huge props to the A's, also--what a series!


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## Felix (Oct 7, 2003)

So, I'm thinking the Sox won?

Good luck in the ALCS if so.

...but my poor poor Braves... *sob*


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## Ranger REG (Oct 7, 2003)

All I can say, it's about time Sosa got his due.


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## nopantsyet (Oct 7, 2003)

Felix said:
			
		

> So, I'm thinking the Sox won?
> 
> Good luck in the ALCS if so.
> 
> ...but my poor poor Braves... *sob*




Yes!  It came down to a very tense bottom of the 9th.  I was standing in the middle of my (home) office unable to breathe.  

I watched the weekend games of the Cubs/Braves series as well...they played some tough baseball.


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## Crothian (Oct 7, 2003)

Wow, it so rarely comes down to the end like that.  Well, except this year.  Seems the games are a heck of a lot closer this year.


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## Sirius_Black (Oct 7, 2003)

jaerdaph said:
			
		

> Red Sox fans are also some of the quickest to leave the game early when their team is down that I have ever seen in the Major League.




Sirius looks at watch. Wow! Only a few minutes have passed since the Red Sox/Yankees ALCS became official and the barbs start to fly.    Go figure.


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## Davelozzi (Oct 7, 2003)

Yeah, I only caught the last couple of at bats, but it was pretty tense.  Now I can hear people driving/walking around cheering and beeping outside.  Go Sox!


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## nopantsyet (Oct 7, 2003)

jaerdaph said:
			
		

> Red Sox fans are also some of the quickest to leave the game early when their team is down that I have ever seen in the Major League.




Yeah, it is really sad.  It's tough to be a Sox fan.  We are hard, cynical people.  But c'mon--it's only because the bars close at 2am, and the only thing we take more seriously than our baseball is our whisky.  



x
x-P


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## Citizen Mane (Oct 7, 2003)

Man, what I wouldn't give to be back in Boston right now.  Yeah, Sox!    I'm wicked thrilled for this ALCS.  Sox-Yanks in October?  I'll take it.


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## Dareoon Dalandrove (Oct 7, 2003)

Who could hope for a better ending?  Bottom of the ninth full count bases loaded and the A's down by a run, and Derek Lowe come up with the big K.  

Every little leaguer has imagined himself in that position.  I thought it was pretty awsome.  I watced it at Uno's in Harvard sq.  The place went wild.


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## BOZ (Oct 7, 2003)

come on everybody, say it with me... Red Sox vs. Cubs!  come on, no other teams in the playoffs derserve the shot more than these guys!


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## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 7, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> come on everybody, say it with me... Red Sox vs. Cubs!  come on, no other teams in the playoffs derserve the shot more than these guys!



Agreed!  I was hoping for bonds and the giants just cause I think he's due, but the whole time I've wanted a Cubs and Boston series.  Now I can root for that with nothing in the way.   After that I want nothing but a nice and even 7 game slugging match.  K for K and run for run.


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## talinthas (Oct 7, 2003)

A sad weekend for me, as both a giants and a's fan, but damn, tonites a's/sox game was one of the most gripping games i've seen in a long time.  It was a damned fine series, all five games worth, and definatly worth the price of admission.  Hats off to the sox, even if i wanted them to lose =)


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## Morpheus (Oct 7, 2003)

Yanks in 5 and that's only if Pedro gets to pitch in Game 4. Lowe? Please. Wakefield? Please. Bullpen? Ohmygod! How did this team beat the A's?


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## Taren Nighteyes (Oct 7, 2003)

Morpheus said:
			
		

> Yanks in 5 and that's only if Pedro gets to pitch in Game 4. Lowe? Please. Wakefield? Please. Bullpen? Ohmygod! How did this team beat the A's?





Morpheus - Preach on.

GO YANKEES!


----------



## John Crichton (Oct 7, 2003)

I live and breathe New York Yankees baseball. I hate the Red Sox.

That said, they played one heck of a series and deserved to win. Even though I wanted them to lose, I secretly and deep down wanted a Sox vs. Yanks ALCS. It doesn't get any better than this. 

I am routing HARD for a Yanks vs. Cubs World Series. My late grandfather was a long suffering Cubs fan and I know he will be watching. Postseason baseball rules.


----------



## John Crichton (Oct 7, 2003)

I'm a huge Yanks fan. Do not discount the Sox. Wakefield was 2-0 at Yankee Stadium this year and he is pitching Game One.  Boston also has the best offense in baseball. This could be a very long series with the Yanks getting the advantage of using the pitching rotation they want along with home field.  The Sox pen has been really good in the playoffs, go figure.  One good thing for NY - We may only see Pedro once and the Yanks do know how to beat him better than any other team.  

But putting all that aside, if the Yanks starters pitch like they did against the Twins the Sox are in deep trouble.


----------



## TiQuinn (Oct 7, 2003)

Man, oh man, did my Giants stink up the joint!    

Now, I think I'm going to pull for the Sox.  I know the Cubs have Dusty, but he left me cold last season.  Cubs - Red Sox would be an AWESOME series though!


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 7, 2003)

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> Why is it that the Cubs are the lovable losers and have fans all across the county while the Red Sox who have been losers almost as long only seem to have fans in Boston?



WGN...

No offence to all the yank fans but I'm going to pull for Boston.  I just haven't been able to cheer for the yanks since Mattingly was pretty much forced out.


----------



## John Crichton (Oct 7, 2003)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> No offence to all the yank fans but I'm going to pull for Boston. I just haven't been able to cheer for the yanks since Mattingly was pretty much forced out.



Forced out?!  He retired very willingly and gracefully.  They didn't trade for anyone until he told them to.  He could have stayed if he wanted to and the Yanks surely would have had him back.


----------



## stevelabny (Oct 7, 2003)

plus if old "donnie groundout" didnt retire, i woulda personally taken him out myself. how much did he suck at the end of his career? he couldnt move his back at all. if he was a horse they woulda shot him.  

yes i'm a yankee fan. i always thought dave winfield was a better player than donnie groundout. mattingly shouldve retired about 3 seasons before he did. 
he made me very bitter at his existence.

bernie read this and take note, for you will shortly be approaching the mattingly zone. (since you already should be a dh)


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 7, 2003)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> plus if old "donnie groundout" didnt retire, i woulda personally taken him out myself. how much did he suck at the end of his career? he couldnt move his back at all. if he was a horse they woulda shot him.



John read the above post...  It really looked like this from the midwest.

Stevelabny, thanks for showing my point far better than I could have.


----------



## stevelabny (Oct 7, 2003)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Stevelabny, thanks for showing my point far better than I could have.




um, no problem, except for the fact that i dont work for the yankees and didnt force mattingly out. he really did just retire. HE COULDN'T MOVE. you know it was his own idea, because he didnt even attempt to go to another team.

but i am curious what you would have preferred? Mattingly stay around for another 5 years and bat .150 with no power? How is that preferable to his retirement? 

I appreciate that you mighta been a young kid with mattingly posters on his walls and lots of rookie cards you were hoping to sell to go to college, but let's be honest...he was DONE. 

and i dont want to hijack the thread completely so new picks for the next round:

yanks in 6. cubs in 6. yanks still win series after the cubs kids hit the wall.

and by 2010 will all of you yankee-bashers be just as upset after seeing the cubs in 5 of 7 world series?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 7, 2003)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> but i am curious what you would have preferred? Mattingly stay around for another 5 years and bat .150 with no power? How is that preferable to his retirement?



One more year and he could have had his post season, you did when the world series, and he would probaly have gotten in to the hall of fame.  What was wrong with that?



			
				stevelabny said:
			
		

> I appreciate that you mighta been a young kid.



I could have been...  



			
				stevelabny said:
			
		

> and by 2010 will all of you yankee-bashers be just as upset after seeing the cubs in 5 of 7 world series?



Probably not, they’re due!   and they haven't won over half the world series ever played.  A statistic that the Yankees meet or are darn close to.


----------



## Dinkeldog (Oct 7, 2003)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> yanks in 6. cubs in 6. yanks still win series after the cubs kids hit the wall.




Don't think that I'm a "yankee-basher", but I'm pulling for the Red Sox, and I don't think it will take the Cubs 6 games.  I'm also not sure what this "wall" is, and why you think the Cubs will suffer, but the Yankees won't.


----------



## Krug (Oct 7, 2003)

boy did the as blow it. some heads should roll. anyway, hope either the cubs or sox take it all.


----------



## Dinkeldog (Oct 7, 2003)

Note:  Merged Red Sox thread.  Limit: one OT thread per topic, please.


----------



## stevelabny (Oct 7, 2003)

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> I'm also not sure what this "wall" is, and why you think the Cubs will suffer, but the Yankees won't.




"hitting the wall" as usually defined in sports: what happens to a young player his first full season in professional sports when he is exhausted from playing a longer season then he ever has before.

professional sports seasons are longer than high school/college/minor league seasons. rookies or 2nd year players going through a full season for the first time usually have a period at 3/4 of the way through the year where they go into a slump. it is described as "hitting the wall". 

it is usually even worse for pitchers in baseball. zambrano and prior threw over 200 innings for the first time in their careers. fans complained all season that dusty baker wasnt watching pitch counts (most notably priors, as he was the big name projected young stud in fantasy baseball circles) and they have thrown A LOT  of pitches. 

now, on top of all their games and innings and pitches they are being asked to pitch for another month.

most fantasy baseball gurus will tell you to avoid these kids like the plague next year, as there is a common rule of thumb that if a pitcher pitches 200 major league innings after never pitching 150, he usually "burns out" the next season. 
this has happened a little less over the past few years presumably because they are finally conditioning the kids right and taking care of them better. i personally believe that prior will be even BETTER next year. i think the fact that he didnt hit the wall but only got better in the second half is telling. his delivery is perfect. he will be one of the best ever.

BUT by the time the world series rolls around, prior will be looking at around 240 innings pitched, and as zito showed last night, all it takes is ONE bad inning to lose a game. he pitched 114 major league innings last year (and 50 in the minors) hes already at 220 this year. probably with 4 more starts coming.

the yankees wont have this problem because as everyone is fond of pointing out, theyve been here before. the whole team is used to playing well into october, the pitchers especially.


----------



## Storm Raven (Oct 7, 2003)

Morpheus said:
			
		

> Yanks in 5 and that's only if Pedro gets to pitch in Game 4. Lowe? Please. Wakefield? Please. Bullpen? Ohmygod! How did this team beat the A's?




Um, perhaps they won because you don't pay very good attention.

Lowe won 17 games this year. Last year he won 21. In 2000, he led the AL with 42 saves. His career ERA going into the 2003 season was 3.31.

The Red Sox the past season had one of the best offensive units in major league history, scoring 961 runs. The A's only scored 768 runs.

The Red Sox had one of the highest team slugging percentages in history (.491). The average hitter on the Boston team hit .289/.360.491. By comparison, Chavez hit .282/.350/.514, and Tejada hit .278/.336/.472.

The _best_ hitters on Oakland's team only hit as well as the _average_ hitter for the BoSox.

Basically, the Red Sox beat the A's because they are pretty much a better team.


----------



## John Crichton (Oct 7, 2003)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> plus if old "donnie groundout" didnt retire, i woulda personally taken him out myself. how much did he suck at the end of his career? he couldnt move his back at all. if he was a horse they woulda shot him.



Mattingly had a great postseason in 1995.  He nearly beat the M's himself.  It would have been nice to see him get a championship but he was physically in pain and didn't want to hurt the team in the next year.  Tino was a fine replacement.  

Back on topic - As for my picks, they are somewhere back in the merged portion of the Red Sox thread.  In short - I'm routing for Cubs vs. Yanks.


----------



## Brown Jenkin (Oct 7, 2003)

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> Why is it that the Cubs are the lovable losers and have fans all across the county while the Red Sox who have been losers almost as long only seem to have fans in Boston?






			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> WGN...




WGN helps but TBS hasn't made the Braves into America's team. There has to be something else.

As for the Red Sox - A's series something had to give. You have the Red Sox losing tradition vs the A's chokeing tradition. Aparently the A's tendency to choke in the playoffs was stronger. [Edit: same can be said for the Cubs - Braves series, how can you win a dozen division titles and only win 1 world series]


----------



## Morpheus (Oct 7, 2003)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Um, perhaps they won because you don't pay very good attention.
> 
> Lowe won 17 games this year. Last year he won 21. In 2000, he led the AL with 42 saves. His career ERA going into the 2003 season was 3.31.
> 
> ...




 Not going to bite on the "I don't pay attention" line, but Lowe won 17 games...with an ERA higher than _any_ of the A's (or Yankee, for that matter) starters. Can you say "run support"? And if there is one thing that baseball teaches us, good pitching and defense _always_ beats good hitting in the end. Yanks advance...Sox go home. But how is that different than any other year?


----------



## Zerakon (Oct 7, 2003)

> The Red Sox had one of the highest team slugging percentages in history (.491).



Yep, that's not just _one of_ but *THE highest team slugging percentage ever!*, beating out the mighty 1927 Yankees (Babe Ruth .772 that year, Lou Gehrig .765). The Sox of course have no sluggers in that stratosphere but they have a *lot* of guys who can swat the ball, with 6 guys (Ortiz, Ramirez, Nixon, Mueller, Garciaparra, and Varitek) over .500.

Anyway, I'm excited for the Red Sox (yes, my team), and hoping for a series against the Yankees that is exciting as the Sox-A's series. Last night's game was just so intense, it was a great game to watch.  I think I read that it was the first time that two Cy Young pitchers ever faced each other in a decisive game in the playoffs!


----------



## BOZ (Oct 8, 2003)

so... predictions on cubs-marlins and red sox-yankees?


----------



## Zerakon (Oct 8, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> so... predictions on cubs-marlins and red sox-yankees?



 Yankees over Red Sox in 7 after Sox have 2 game lead. Game 6 will feature a new Bucknerish play, and game 7 will just be a sad blowout. (Yes, I am a Red Sox fan and obligatorily hate the Yankees but this is my prediction.)

Cubs over Marlins in 5.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 8, 2003)

i like.


----------



## Dimwhit (Oct 8, 2003)

The Marlins will play the Yankees. The Marlins will win it all. 

Why??

Because the Marlins are the one team no one is talking about.


----------



## Tarrasque Wrangler (Oct 8, 2003)

Dimwhit said:
			
		

> The Marlins will play the Yankees. The Marlins will win it all.
> 
> Why??
> 
> Because the Marlins are the one team no one is talking about.



 Maybe no one's talking about them outside the Bay Area.  Around here you hear their name muttered quite often, usually prefixed by an expletive.

I would looooove to see a Cubs/Sox World Series, with the Sox winning it all.  Two reasons: Deny Dusty Baker the Series win he couldn't get here in SF (yeah, we carry a grudge here), and to finally shut up all of this "Curse of the Bambino" garbage.


----------



## dreamthief (Oct 8, 2003)

boy what a grinder of a game. got to credit the marlins for pulling it off.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 8, 2003)

that was one hell of a game.


----------



## Storm Raven (Oct 8, 2003)

Morpheus said:
			
		

> Not going to bite on the "I don't pay attention" line, but Lowe won 17 games...with an ERA higher than _any_ of the A's (or Yankee, for that matter) starters. Can you say "run support"? And if there is one thing that baseball teaches us, good pitching and defense _always_ beats good hitting in the end. Yanks advance...Sox go home. But how is that different than any other year?




No, the rule is that good pitching beats good hitting, _and vice versa_.

And if you think the Yankees have "good defense" you haven't been watching the collection of immobile zombies the Yankees have been running out there all year. Jeter is slow, Williams should be in left field, he can't cover center any more. Matsui and the various guys they run out the right are adequate fielders at best, and Giambi has become a slow, poor fielder even by standards applied to first basemen. The only player on the team who is actually fast is Soriano, and he can't cover the whole field by himself.

And Yankees pitching is no great shakes either. Both Pettite and Wells have ERAs over 4.00, and Clemens isn't that much better.


----------



## Gnome Berzerker (Oct 8, 2003)

Last nights Cubs/Fish game was something else.  Tonight, the Fish will wake up when they have to face Prior, and they'll be down 2-1 after Wood mows them down in Florida.

The sCrubs are built a whole lot like the '01 D-Backs.  2 aces and a decent lineup.  If both of those guys just win their games, the team will be lifting a 95 year old curse.


Anyway, harking back to pages 1 and 2:



			
				Cthulhu's Librarian said:
			
		

> Once a New Yorker, always a New Yorker.
> 
> GO YANKEES!
> 
> Not that I really care about baseball, but after growing up in the late 70s in NY, how can I not want the Yankees to take it all?




No offense CL, but growing up and living in NY myself, you either love that team, hate that team, or just bandwagon on when one of them is good.  And NY has been crawling with bandwagon Stankee fans for way too long.



			
				jaerdaph said:
			
		

> In the immortal words of Yogi Berra,
> 
> It ain't over until it's over.




Ya know Mr Berra uttered those words when he was the manager of the Mets, right? 



In closing, I couldn't be happier if the BoSox swept the Evil Empire, and I could watch a historic World Series between Chicago and Boston.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 9, 2003)

i'll be honest and tell you i'll be happy just to not see the yankees in the world series this year.  i'd prefer the cubs to beat the marlins though, but as long as the red sox do their job i'll be happy.


----------



## Morpheus (Oct 9, 2003)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> No, the rule is that good pitching beats good hitting, _and vice versa_.
> 
> And if you think the Yankees have "good defense" you haven't been watching the collection of immobile zombies the Yankees have been running out there all year. Jeter is slow, Williams should be in left field, he can't cover center any more. Matsui and the various guys they run out the right are adequate fielders at best, and Giambi has become a slow, poor fielder even by standards applied to first basemen. The only player on the team who is actually fast is Soriano, and he can't cover the whole field by himself.
> 
> And Yankees pitching is no great shakes either. Both Pettite and Wells have ERAs over 4.00, and Clemens isn't that much better.




I agree-the Yankees defense isn't that good. Please remind me again how many gold gloves the Red Sox have won? Oh, that's right-their defense is even _worse_.


----------



## Zerakon (Oct 9, 2003)

Can't we root for our respective teams without belittling others'? The Red Sox and Yankees both have great teams. And heck, they paid enough for them, didn't they?  I'm a Red Sox fan and rooting for the Sox but I think the Yankees definitely have the edge going into this series -- pitchers more rested, Johnny Damon is injured and out for 2 games  -- so the Sox are going to have to do something magical to win. Go BoSox!


----------



## Krug (Oct 11, 2003)

That was a thrilling Cubs-Marlins game.. Cubs up 2-1! But a really tight, exciting series. should do wonders for baseball.


----------



## Sirius_Black (Oct 11, 2003)

Zerakon said:
			
		

> Can't we root for our respective teams without belittling others'?




That's just crazy talk! But, what else to expect from a Sox fan?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 11, 2003)

Sirius_Black said:
			
		

> That's just crazy talk! But, what else to expect from a Sox fan?



Bill Buckner hate mail…


----------



## BOZ (Oct 11, 2003)

Krug said:
			
		

> That was a thrilling Cubs-Marlins game.. Cubs up 2-1! But a really tight, exciting series. should do wonders for baseball.




especially in my town.


----------



## Zerakon (Oct 11, 2003)

Krug said:
			
		

> That was a thrilling Cubs-Marlins game.. Cubs up 2-1! But a really tight, exciting series. should do wonders for baseball.



Jayson Stark wrote an interesting article (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/playoffs2003/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=1634561) the other day about how good this post-season has been in terms of close games, and how baseball has perennially been really good in that _closeness_ way over the last 8 or so years, especially compared with the NFL. However, considering baseball's popularity has steadily been declining while the NFL's has been rising, even with baseball having more exciting (statistically speaking, anyway) games, I'm pretty sure nothing will "do wonders for baseball" at this point. We baseball fans -- with the patience to watch a "slow" game like baseball -- are a slowly dying breed.

Anyhoo, I'm psyched for today's game... Pedro vs Roger at Fenway, series tied 1-1. Doesn't get much better than this...


----------



## Krug (Oct 12, 2003)

Close game, though marred by that brawl. Too bad Pedro was slightly shaky and the Sox bats are stll asleep...

As for baseball's decline, part of it has to do with not having a good revenue-sharing plan. In NFL, any team has a fair chance of winning the Super Bowl due to parity. In baseball, the gap between the rich and poor teams is too wide.


----------



## Silver Moon (Oct 12, 2003)

On the subject of the Red Sox, could somebody please answer a question.   What is with the new "Cowboy Up" mantra?   I understand that it is a rodeo expression for "get your act together", but why is it now associated with a team from Boston, Massachusetts?   The last time that a real rodeo actually came to Boston it was headlined by Wild Bill Hickok.


----------



## John Crichton (Oct 12, 2003)

Krug said:
			
		

> Close game, though marred by that brawl. Too bad Pedro was slightly shaky and the Sox bats are stll asleep...



The Sox bats aren't asleep, they are being put to sleep.  Good pitching always trumps good hitting.  Pedro didn't have it tonight, that is true.

If anyone saw the postgame on YES, Clemens was massively pissed.  Took the coaches all they had to settle him down and not retaliate.


----------



## John Crichton (Oct 12, 2003)

Silver Moon said:
			
		

> On the subject of the Red Sox, could somebody please answer a question. What is with the new "Cowboy Up" mantra? I understand that it is a rodeo expression for "get your act together", but why is it now associated with a team from Boston, Massachusetts? The last time that a real rodeo actually came to Boston it was headlined by Wild Bill Hickok.



Was one of the Boston players sayings, not sure which. Maybe a Red Sox fan knows.

EDIT:  It is Kevin Millar's "motto."


----------



## stevelabny (Oct 12, 2003)

Red Sox fans are so desperate to latch on to ANY bit of hope..
that they adopted the "Cowboy Up" thing from the redneck players who started it. Sad. Bostonians in cowboy hats, is anything more ridiculous?

And as for Pedro not having it...he pitched like he always pitches in big games...just good enough to LOSE. 
He's a pathetic excuse for a big game pitcher.
And a punk.
As bad as everyone always wants to say Clemens is, I hope people finally realize that Pedro is the biggest punk pitcher in the major leagues. What a dirtbag. Zim shoulda kicked him in the nuts and cleated him in the face.

Maybe Pedro can redeem himself in his next start...
Which will be mid-April, 2004.

Bring on the Cubbies and we'll rip their hopes and dreams to shreds too.


----------



## Zerakon (Oct 12, 2003)

Timlin is a Texan and brought the phrase. Kevin Millar, the spiritual leader of the team propagated it.

As far as Sox bats being asleep/put to sleep, it's a little of both. Nomar for instance, has been asleep at the plate for about a month.

As far as this game, I had a feeling the Red Sox were going to lose this game as soon as they jumped out to a 2-0 lead. Part of me was happy that the Sox lost this one, Pedro conjured up some bad karma with that pitch to Karim Garcia. There's no reason for that baloney. That whole 4th inning was sort of pathetic, especially the Zimmer vs Pedro part.


----------



## Zerakon (Oct 12, 2003)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> Red Sox fans are so desperate to latch on to ANY bit of hope..



*Some* Red Sox fans.



> Bring on the Cubbies and we'll rip their hopes and dreams to shreds too.



*Some* Yankees fans have class.


----------



## stevelabny (Oct 12, 2003)

Zerakon said:
			
		

> *Some* Red Sox fans.
> 
> 
> *Some* Yankees fans have class.




i gave up class a long time ago in this thread 
i dont need no steeenkin' class

i thought ripping the hopes and the dreams of cubs fans to shreds was funny.
i just laughed again. its definately funny.


----------



## John Crichton (Oct 12, 2003)

Zerakon said:
			
		

> Timlin is a Texan and brought the phrase. Kevin Millar, the spiritual leader of the team propagated it.



Ah, I knew there was a Texan on there somewhere.  The term may be annoying (I don't know how Boston fans view it) but nothing is as annoying as the Rally Monkey from last year.  


			
				Zerakon said:
			
		

> As far as Sox bats being asleep/put to sleep, it's a little of both. Nomar for instance, has been asleep at the plate for about a month.



He's pretty much the only one.  Everyone else has been hitting ok.  But the Yankee pitchers deserve some credit for holding down what is the best offense in baseball.


			
				Zerakon said:
			
		

> As far as this game, I had a feeling the Red Sox were going to lose this game as soon as they jumped out to a 2-0 lead. Part of me was happy that the Sox lost this one, Pedro conjured up some bad karma with that pitch to Karim Garcia. There's no reason for that baloney. That whole 4th inning was sort of pathetic, especially the Zimmer vs Pedro part.



That was a bad move by Pedro, hitting Garcia.  I know Pedro has a history of losing it, mentally, when he gives up runs but his team really needed him to gut out a performance and he let them down.  He didn't have his best stuff tonight but the great pitchers always find a way even when they don't have their best stuff.

I'm happy that my team won.  Take out the stuff in the 9th and the 4th and you have a great ballgame.  Classic New York vs. Boston.  Lost in all of this was another terrific job by Rivera and more clutch hitting by Jeter, the new Mr. October.  I still can't believe Clemens didn't bean anyone but that is a good thing.

Final note:  Good move by the Red Sox management to stop selling beer after the 4th inning near-brawl.  It could have been worse than it was.


----------



## John Crichton (Oct 12, 2003)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> i gave up class a long time ago in this thread
> i dont need no steeenkin' class
> 
> i thought ripping the hopes and the dreams of cubs fans to shreds was funny.
> i just laughed again. its definately funny.



There's no need to tempt fate, man.  The Yanks haven't won anything yet and neither have the Cubs.

I say this as one Yankee fan to another.


----------



## thalmin (Oct 12, 2003)

The Cubs are just one win away from the WOOORRRLLLD SERIES ! ! !
I must be dreaming.


----------



## Brown Jenkin (Oct 12, 2003)

thalmin said:
			
		

> The Cubs are just one win away from the WOOORRRLLLD SERIES ! ! !
> I must be dreaming.




Prepare for the world to end.


----------



## John Crichton (Oct 12, 2003)

thalmin said:
			
		

> The Cubs are just one win away from the WOOORRRLLLD SERIES ! ! !
> I must be dreaming.



Shhhhh!  If you talk about it, it may not happen.


----------



## Taren Nighteyes (Oct 12, 2003)

Wow!  This post season has been great thus far.

I am routing for a Cubs v. Yankees World Series.  (I truly hope the Yanks take it, but I wouldn't cry if the Cubs final get one!)


Go Yankees!

Taren Nighteyes


----------



## Krug (Oct 12, 2003)

Well hopefully Cubs can seal it up tomorrow. If not, there's Wood and Prior waiting... c'mon Cubs!


----------



## Gnome Berzerker (Oct 12, 2003)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> If anyone saw the postgame on YES, Clemens was massively pissed.  Took the coaches all they had to settle him down and not retaliate.




Clemens' retaliation is what started everything.  That guy is a piece of, well, something Eric's Grandma would have just flushed down and lit a match.



			
				stevelabny said:
			
		

> And as for Pedro not having it...he pitched like he always pitches in big games...just good enough to LOSE.
> He's a pathetic excuse for a big game pitcher.
> And a punk.
> As bad as everyone always wants to say Clemens is, I hope people finally realize that Pedro is the biggest punk pitcher in the major leagues. What a dirtbag. Zim shoulda kicked him in the nuts and cleated him in the face.




Pedro is 4-1 in the Postseason.  What a choker  

I agree that Pedro is a punk, but he's built in Clemens' mold.  They're both headhunters, and it makes me sick.

If Zimmer doesn't want to get pushed down, he shouldn't be THE ONLY person to throw a punch out there.  If that fat jerk wants to stay out of a fight, he shouldn't be throwing punches.

And Kevin Kennedy's making excuses for him turns my stomach too.  "Don Zimmer is especially sensitive to headhunters, because he was hospitalized when he was a player from getting hit in the head."

Yeah, that's why he called Mike Piazza a baby after getting hit in the head (and having to go to the hospital) by -- guess who -- Roger Clemens.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 12, 2003)

thalmin said:
			
		

> The Cubs are just one win away from the WOOORRRLLLD SERIES ! ! !
> I must be dreaming.




are they playing at home tonight?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 12, 2003)

Me being the innocent third party here with nothing on the line...  I would like to see Boston win yes, but if the Yankees win I would be curious to see how much noise the cub fans could make in Yankee stadium as they've managed to make serious noise in both opposing stadiums so far.   

Anyhow let me comment on the below:



			
				Gnome Berzerker said:
			
		

> I agree that Pedro is a punk, but he's built in Clemens' mold.  They're both headhunters, and it makes me sick.




Neither one of them is a punk…  Their both great pitchers and to be a great pitcher in this era of the less than perfect strike zone, the lower mound, and the work effort of the offensive players and you just have bad news all day.  Throwing inside isn’t the big deal it’s made to be,  Throw Bob Gibson on the mound (The single reason for that lower mound mind you) and see someone who is aggressive and will DEFIANTLY throw at heads, and not just inside.  There are younger pitchers that will throw inside, and they will eventual have reputations for being punks, throwing inside is an “art form” that will be coming back more and more with the new crops of phenom pitchers.


----------



## Gnome Berzerker (Oct 12, 2003)

Clemens has beaned players, and Pedro was pointing to his head threatening Jorge Posada yesterday.

I agree that throwing inside is part of the game, but intentionally trying to hurt someone isn't only unsportsmanlike, it's criminal behaviour.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 12, 2003)

Gnome Berzerker said:
			
		

> Clemens has beaned players...



So has Jamie Moyer, and so has every other pitchers to have ever played the game.  It does and will countine to happen.



			
				Gnome Berzerker said:
			
		

> and Pedro was pointing to his head threatening Jorge Posada yesterday.




I point at my head when I suggest someone is crazy, and I didn't see you or me on the field and everything I've heard I would say was suspect as everyone involved would have the other side look bad and themselves look right…


----------



## stevelabny (Oct 13, 2003)

Gnome Berzerker said:
			
		

> Clemens' retaliation is what started everything.  That guy is a piece of, well, something Eric's Grandma would have just flushed down and lit a match.




Um, this is nothing but Clemens-bashing. You do realise that saying that a RETALIATION start everything proves that you shouldnt use words if you dont know what they mean?  retaliation BY DEFINITION means someone else started it. Now look at the difference between Pedro's pitch directly at Karim Garcia's head as opposed to Clemen's high pitch to Manny that was OVER THE PLATE. if you still want to accuse Clemens of throwing AT manny, then Pedro has to answer for that game mid-season where he sent both Soriano and Jeter to the hospital. Clemens pitches old-school inside AND had a nasty streak if you annoy him (see Piazza, Mike) that makes him the 2nd dirtiest player in the game BUT Pedro is nothing but a head-hunter. Eric's Grandma would be flushing Pedro, not Clemens.



			
				Gnome Berzerker said:
			
		

> Pedro is 4-1 in the Postseason.  What a choker




4-1 how many starts? And how many no-decisions that his team LOST? And before you tell me a no-decision means its not his fault...yes it is. As the Sox best and some would say only pitcher he HAS to win his postseason games.
His post season no-decisions, mediocre record vs the Yanks , and countless missed games and short starts cuz hes a wuss mean that he is a choke artist and not an elite pitcher.

Can someone tell me what I'm doing wrong to these poor quotes?
Ok I fixed em thanks muchly.


----------



## Pbartender (Oct 13, 2003)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> Can someone tell me what I'm doing wrong to these poor quotes?




You need to add a slash, "/", to the end-tags.


----------



## Gnome Berzerker (Oct 13, 2003)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> So has Jamie Moyer, and so has every other pitchers to have ever played the game.  It does and will countine to happen.




Incorrect.  Not every pitcher to have ever played the game has beaned a batter.

As for Clemens:  Both teams were warned.  Clemens still decided to throw up and in to Manny, which should have, by the rules, gotten both him and Torre tossed from the game.  Yes, Pedro threw at a batter first, but when an umpire decides to warn both teams, the matter is considered over.  

It's kind of like when a moderator tells somebody to drop a certain subject:  Sure, you may still have strong feelings towards the matter, but they need to be dropped to continue posting.



> Clemens pitches old-school inside AND had a nasty streak if you annoy him (see Piazza, Mike) that makes him the 2nd dirtiest player in the game BUT Pedro is nothing but a head-hunter. Eric's Grandma would be flushing Pedro, not Clemens.




I could counter that this is nothing but Pedro bashing (or Gnome bashing, since above this quote your're accusing me of not knowing the english language).  As for that mean streak that goes off when people annoy him, does owning a pitcher count as an annoyance? 

As for Pedro, and his being a wuss, I agree.  My opinion is that Pedro is the best 5-inning pitcher in baseball.  He's too fragile to be considered elite IMO.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 13, 2003)

Gnome Berzerker said:
			
		

> Incorrect.  Not every pitcher to have ever played the game has beaned a batter.



Show me the career stats of someone of significance that never hit a batter in his professional career.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 13, 2003)

poor cubbies... had a bad night.  go get em next time.


----------



## Gnome Berzerker (Oct 13, 2003)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Show me the career stats of someone of significance that never hit a batter in his professional career.





"Beaned" means "hit in the head," not "hit by pitch."

BTW, I just found a new shirt I've just got to have.  It's the first one on www.yankee-hater.com


----------



## John Crichton (Oct 13, 2003)

Gnome Berzerker said:
			
		

> BTW, I just found a new shirt I've just got to have. It's the first one on www.yankee-hater.com



Those are kinda funny.  Even as a NY fan.  All that pent-up rage from no Series titles in 85 years.  I hope I never get like that....


----------



## Silver Moon (Oct 13, 2003)

No need for Pedro bashing - he did enough bashing for himself.   It was pointed out today that because of Saturday's incidents it is highly unlikely that the Yankees will EVER seriously consider acquiring him.   There are only a few teams who can afford him, the Yankees being the top one.   Even if he spends his whole career in Boston, the possiblility of signing with New York always existed before as a negotiation tactic for a better contract.    So even though MLB may have fined him $50K for Game Three it has probably actually cost him millions.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 14, 2003)

Gnome Berzerker said:
			
		

> "Beaned" means "hit in the head," not "hit by pitch."



Does it?  You can throw at allot of body parts and still get a warning, even if you missed, but it all comes down to being hit by a pitch.  Can you show me a definition that strictly says it’s hitting someone in the head?


----------



## darkdancer (Oct 14, 2003)

before anything:  I am a life-long redsox fan, despite years of living in nyc.  



			
				Gnome Berzerker said:
			
		

> As for Clemens:  Both teams were warned.  Clemens still decided to throw up and in to Manny, which should have, by the rules, gotten both him and Torre tossed from the game.  Yes, Pedro threw at a batter first, but when an umpire decides to warn both teams, the matter is considered over.




I gotta disagree with this one - when I first saw manny's reaction, I was inclined to agree, but after seeing the replay, I can't.  That pitch was up but nowhere near his head.

Understandably with emotions running as high as they were, manny was entitled to an overaction, but the size and length of his overaction led to horrific repercussions.  I think that given the circumstances, Clemens kept his cool remarkably well.  Pedro was not so cool.

that said, red sox in 6!


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 14, 2003)

Silver Moon said:
			
		

> No need for Pedro bashing - he did enough bashing for himself.   It was pointed out today that because of Saturday's incidents it is highly unlikely that the Yankees will EVER seriously consider acquiring him.   There are only a few teams who can afford him, the Yankees being the top one.   Even if he spends his whole career in Boston, the possiblility of signing with New York always existed before as a negotiation tactic for a better contract.    So even though MLB may have fined him $50K for Game Three it has probably actually cost him millions.



The Yankees will still pick him up, they may talk right now about never doing it, but the bottom line is that the Yankees don't like to lose, and have in the past taking chances with less than savory players, and giving second chances.


----------



## John Crichton (Oct 14, 2003)

*Allow me*



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Does it? You can throw at allot of body parts and still get a warning, even if you missed, but it all comes down to being hit by a pitch. Can you show me a definition that strictly says it’s hitting someone in the head?



From webster.com -


> Main Entry: *bean·ball*
> Pronunciation: -"bol
> Function: _noun_
> Date: circa 1905
> *:* a pitch thrown at a batter's head


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 14, 2003)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> From webster.com -



I use to like you john...    [Just kidding]

I found a baseball dictionary that pretty much summed it up the same way...  I was wrong.


----------



## John Crichton (Oct 14, 2003)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> I use to like you john...  [Just kidding]
> 
> I found a baseball dictionary that pretty much summed it up the same way... I was wrong.



All good.  I actually knew the term was head-specific for a beanball.  I used to be a little league umpire and it was in the rulebook.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 14, 2003)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> All good.  I actually knew the term was head-specific for a beanball.  I used to be a little league umpire and it was in the rulebook.



I once saw Jamie Moyer get both benches warned on a pitch inside...  On a high 60s low 70s change up...     He was pretty rattled by the whole incident.


----------



## John Crichton (Oct 14, 2003)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> I once saw Jamie Moyer get both benches warned on a pitch inside... On a high 60s low 70s change up...  He was pretty rattled by the whole incident.



Well, this is the majors and this is the postseason.  If that game was a regular season game, Pedro would have been possibly tossed right away.  I'm not sure about Roger because that pitch wasn't even close - Even Little said so.  The in-between incident would have gotten Pedro and Zimmer tossed most likely.

The umps can warn both benches in any situation they feel like they need to - to prevent things like brawls.  They may have put the warning out there too early on Saturday.  They should have let Roger nail Manny and then warn both benches.  It may have even given Boston a better chance at winning the game because the Boston hitters were on their heels the rest of the game.

Also, this is the postseason.  They won't throw people out the game as quickly as they do in the regular season.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 14, 2003)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Well, this is the majors and this is the postseason.  If that game was a regular season game, Pedro would have been possibly tossed right away.  I'm not sure about Roger because that pitch wasn't even close - Even Little said so.



Clemens didn't even come close to the cry baby and should n't have been tossed


			
				John Crichton said:
			
		

> The in-between incident would have gotten Pedro and Zimmer tossed most likely.



I see Zimmer being tossed and Pedro not being..  Pedro was just protecting himself or at least he was in my eyes.



			
				John Crichton said:
			
		

> The umps can warn both benches in any situation they feel like they need to - to prevent things like brawls.  They may have put the warning out there too early on Saturday.  They should have let Roger nail Manny and then warn both benches.



Agreed. 



			
				John Crichton said:
			
		

> Also, this is the postseason.  They won't throw people out the game as quickly as they do in the regular season.



Agreed again.


----------



## thalmin (Oct 15, 2003)

Aaaaaarrrrrrgh.


----------



## Jack Haggerty (Oct 15, 2003)

thalmin said:
			
		

> Aaaaaarrrrrrgh.




GAH!


----------



## Pbartender (Oct 15, 2003)

thalmin said:
			
		

> Aaaaaarrrrrrgh.






			
				Jack Haggerty said:
			
		

> GAH!




And the idiot was wering a CUBS cap.


----------



## John Crichton (Oct 15, 2003)

Wow.  Game Seven, I love game Seven.  Crazy stuff happens.  Wood on the mound.  Should be a great game.  I may leave work early just to watch it if the Yanks clinch tomorrow (I work late).


----------



## Dimwhit (Oct 15, 2003)

I watched only a half inning of that game. Fortunately, it was the top half of the 8th. I wonder if that fan got linched! Too bad it didn't happen to the detriment of the Yankees. It would get them back for a couple years ago.

But come on, you've gotta love game 7. Game 7s are what make baseball great!


----------



## Pbartender (Oct 15, 2003)

Dimwhit said:
			
		

> I watched only a half inning of that game. Fortunately, it was the top half of the 8th. I wonder if that fan got linched!




Not it if he was smart...  They had about a half dozen security guards escort him out of the stadium.  Ostensibly for his own safety.  So long as he got in his car and drove straight home, he's probably alright.

Personally, I almost hope those guards took him out back and...    

Well...  Let's just say that even Eric's Grandma couldn't have been too happy with that pinhead.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 15, 2003)

thalmin said:
			
		

> Aaaaaarrrrrrgh.




awww cubbies.    well, there's still tomorrow! (too bad it's D&D game night!)


----------



## Sirius_Black (Oct 15, 2003)

Look closely at a slow motion replay of the fan reaching for the ball.....I'm almost positive you can see a goat in one of the corners of the screen.   

Just watch it....back and to the left...back and to the left...there's a goat there quickly who gives the fan a nudge...dooming the Cubs.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 15, 2003)

Sirius_Black said:
			
		

> Just watch it....back and to the left...back and to the left...there's a goat there quickly who gives the fan a nudge...dooming the Cubs.



That would be real funny if I wasn't praying for the cubs...


----------



## Storm Raven (Oct 15, 2003)

Morpheus said:
			
		

> I agree-the Yankees defense isn't that good. Please remind me again how many gold gloves the Red Sox have won? Oh, that's right-their defense is even _worse_.




Right, which is why the Red Sox had better team fielding stats than the Yankees. Such as fielding percentage (.982 to .981), range factor (4.150 to 4.080) and zone rating (.835 to .827).

All the numbers say the Yankees were worse defensive team than the Red Sox in 2003. So what was that you were saying?


----------



## KnowTheToe (Oct 15, 2003)

Poor Cub fan is getting the short end of the stick.  Almost every fan in the area had their hands up in the air and did not even realize Moises was even there.  Anyway the fan did not have anything to do with the Cubs bats failing in game 5, the errors by the Cubs fielding and the poor pitching in game 6.  As a matter of fact it is those same ball grabbing fans that allow the athletes to make millions fo dollars.  The Cubs should have saud, we are grateful for such enthusiastic fans.

After watching the news cast where profesional journalists asked a professional coach three back to back questions about a curse right after he had a devastating loss, I may rute for the Marlins.  If Chicago wants so badly for their to be a curse againt the Cubs, may they never win.


----------



## stevelabny (Oct 15, 2003)

and heres an interesting tidbit you can tie into your role-playing games too

curses only affect those that BELIEVE in them.

red sox and cubs fans are ALWAYS waiting for the other shoe to drop. They think theyre cursed and live life in fear.

yankee fans are the exact opposite. they believe they will win, no matter what.

yankee fans interfere with a ball that might have gone foul in game 1, giving the red sox a homer, and nobody cares. a game isnt lost on one play.

cubs fans interfere with a ball that might have been caught in game 6, and its THE CURSE. the crowd gets scared, the players get rattled, wild pitch, dusty is too scared to bring in his bullpen, bad pitch to pudge, dropped double play, mistake to derrek lee, by the time the bullpen is brought in they have no self-esteem and are unnerved by the CRIES OF DESPAIR coming from the crowd...what a disaster

rather than absolve the fan of his "role" in the teams loss, every single player and dusty acknowledged it.  yikes.

with the sox and cubs both on the verge of elimination this could be a VERY hysterical day in professional sports. 

i still cant believe why anyone would want to see these two teams play each other in the world series. the curses are much more fun intact then they would be if broken.


----------



## AlphaOmega (Oct 15, 2003)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> and heres an interesting tidbit you can tie into your role-playing games too
> 
> curses only affect those that BELIEVE in them.
> 
> ...





GREAT POST... someone who actually understands baseball on these boards... I haven't posted much in the last year since getting attacked by people who didn't agree with my views on baseball history last playoffs.

sports, religion, and politics are three topics where everyone thinks they're an expert and heaven forbid if someone disagrees...

anyhow... once again great post...


----------



## JRRNeiklot (Oct 15, 2003)

Double post.  Ignore.


----------



## JRRNeiklot (Oct 15, 2003)

What do they expect?  They let the fans in the gate with a baseball glove and don't expect them to try and catch a foul ball?  Besides, look at the replay closely.  Alou was gonna miss it anyway.  They should blame the damned shortstop instead of the fan.  Or Baker for not yanking Prior earlier.  He never should have bunted at the end of the 7th.  He was done.  Put in a pinch hitter and let your bullpen clean up.


----------



## LordVyreth (Oct 15, 2003)

stevelabny, except for those last two paragraphs, I sadly agree.  Missed foul or no, we could've gotten out of that inning with only a run or two, and still won the game.  Instead, the pitching and fielding got sloppy, and there wasn't even an attempt at a comeback.  Let's hope everyone gets over it and play some actual baseball tonight.

Vyreth


----------



## stevelabny (Oct 15, 2003)

AlphaOmega said:
			
		

> sports, religion, and politics are three topics where everyone thinks they're an expert and heaven forbid if someone disagrees...
> 
> anyhow... once again great post...




::looks around, sees nobody else,points to self questioningly:: 

WHO ME?
well, thanks, but maybe you should go back and read some of my other posts in this thread, i dotn think they made evreyone happy.  classless, i think was the word   

speaking of classless.. they just reported on wfan 660am nyc that the Chicago Sun Times printed "the fan's" name, phone number and address. I looked at their webpage and only found his name, but a quick google search gave me the page of the little league team he coaches and an e-mail address.
i'm sending him a request that if the cubs lose, he hold a press conference and RE-CURSE them. should be good for some giggles.

and although you should only enter a religion or politics fight if youre not shy about hurting other peoples feelings and being labeled evil or worse, sports doesnt compare. its just a game. that we're not even playing. anyone who wants to get violent about a sports arguement is just DUMB.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Oct 15, 2003)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> speaking of classless.. they just reported on wfan 660am nyc that the Chicago Sun Times printed "the fan's" name, phone number and address.




The Smoking Gun got him, too:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/cubfan1.html


----------



## KnowTheToe (Oct 15, 2003)

and after I received the first harrassing phone call, I would have a lawyer and sue everyone who published my name.  If for some reason I couldn't, I would get a rifle and kill someone they love.  Ok maybe not, but I think it is very irresponsable of anyone to publish it.


----------



## stevelabny (Oct 15, 2003)

KnowTheToe said:
			
		

> and after I received the first harrassing phone call, I would have a lawyer and sue everyone who published my name.  If for some reason I couldn't, I would get a rifle and kill someone they love.  Ok maybe not, but I think it is very irresponsable of anyone to publish it.




well, i dont think its irresponsible to publish his name, he IS a news story. but putting his address and phone number into the hands of the stupid and lazy is probably a bad idea. just having his name will still make it difficult to find his house, unless he's dumb enough to be listed.

of course, i still think the anonymous accuser, and named defendant in court cases is 100% backwards, so i'm always looking at rights to privacy on a completely different viewpoint from everyone else.


----------



## KnowTheToe (Oct 15, 2003)

I disagree with him being a news story.  That a fan played a role is destroying the hopes of millions of Cubs fans is a half truth, but that is a story.  His name in no way enhances the story but only endangers him and his family.  It really upsets me when the press does things like this.  They intentially wished harm on this person by publishing his name.

Hopefully he is paranoid and does not have a listed phone number and adress.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Oct 15, 2003)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> well, i dont think its irresponsible to publish his name, he IS a news story. but putting his address and phone number into the hands of the stupid and lazy is probably a bad idea.




I sent the Smoking Gun link to my buddies here and the office, and hypothesized at the time that this guy would find a way to sue Wrigley for emotional distress or something (not providing him with adequate security quick enough, etc.)

Posting his name, number, and address is awfully irresponsible on the part of the paper, possibly even negligent, but because it's the "holy" press, I don't see that he'll have any recourse there.

I find the whole thing morbidly interesting, though.

Having just moved from Chicago to Rhode Island, I can't tell you all how much I'd love a Cubs/Sox series. I grew up in KY, so I got to watch a lot of Cubs games on WGN-- natural affiliation there. And I don't know at what point in my childhood the Red Sox invaded my subconscious, but I've always had a thing for them, too...

Wulf


----------



## beldar1215 (Oct 15, 2003)

*Go Cubs!!!*

After last nights melt down do you still think the Cubs have a chance? I still believe!!! GO Cubs!!!


----------



## BrooklynKnight (Oct 16, 2003)

Not a chance in hell.
Even if they win today. They wont beat the yanks.
Why do you even bother hoping. Its a lost cause.
Bwahahah!


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Oct 16, 2003)

ArthurQ said:
			
		

> Not a chance in hell.
> Even if they win today. They wont beat the yanks.
> Why do you even bother hoping. Its a lost cause.
> Bwahahah!




Yankees have to get there first, skippy...

And on behalf of the viewing audience, I'd like to request a batting helmet for Hideki Matsui big enough to cover up them nasty earlobes.

Wulf


----------



## Pseudonym (Oct 16, 2003)

So how many times will we see the footage of Pedro and Zimmer tomorrow?  I'll wager at least 50.


----------



## BrooklynKnight (Oct 16, 2003)

*hides*
guess i spoke to soon.


----------



## John Crichton (Oct 16, 2003)

Pedro vs. The Rocket.  I didn't want a Game Seven but I got one anyway.  Tomorrow can't come soon enough.  Go Yanks!


----------



## Dinkeldog (Oct 16, 2003)

ArthurQ said:
			
		

> Not a chance in hell.
> Even if they win today. They wont beat the yanks.
> Why do you even bother hoping. Its a lost cause.
> Bwahahah!




One could point out that when the Yankees played the Cubs this year, that the Yankees did not win that series.


----------



## John Crichton (Oct 16, 2003)

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> One could point out that when the Yankees played the Cubs this year, that the Yankees did not win that series.



This is true.  However, all of the games were at Wrigley Field.  But anyway, the Yankes aren't in the WS, they still have to win one more game.  And as it stands now, it will be Florida in the Series, not the Cubs.  I'm hoping for a Chi-town rally...


----------



## BrooklynKnight (Oct 16, 2003)

witty retort, flaming dinkle for standing against a newyork team.

Afterall, how dare he?

laugh at own witty comment, insult other team, dissapear into the night.

pokes head back in to make mention that he is not a sports fan, but still supports local teams because they are...well...local.


----------



## Gnome Berzerker (Oct 16, 2003)

I feel bad for that Scrub fan.  As a matter of fact, I fear for his health.  There are a lot of really crazy Cubs fans out there, and I wouldn't put it past a few of them to go to his house looking for him!


As for the Yanks/Sox game 7, I don't think there's any chance the Sawx can pull it off.  

While my feelings about both pitchers were detailed earlier in this thread, until Pedro proves he has external male genetalia, I think he'll cave tomorrow.

I hope I'm wrong...



EDIT:  Hey Art!  Brooklyn is NL teritorry, root for da stinkin' Mets!


----------



## BrooklynKnight (Oct 16, 2003)

If the mets were up for the series and not the yanks i would.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Oct 16, 2003)

It's not looking good for those Cubbies.   As a Cardinals fan of course I'm all torn up over this...


----------



## Starman (Oct 16, 2003)

And the curse continues for the Cubs...

 

Starman


----------



## drothgery (Oct 16, 2003)

As more and more op-eds pulling for Cubs-Red Sox showed up, I've become more and more enamored with the idea of Yankees-Marlins, mostly because I'm an Indians fan. The Cubs and Sox have always gotten a lot more publicity for their post-season futility.


----------



## thalmin (Oct 16, 2003)

sigh


----------



## stevelabny (Oct 16, 2003)

arthur...no no no never just root for a team because its local. ugh.
either pick a team or dont. 

gnome...as for brooklyn being nl territory? lessee... im from brooklyn, and im a yanks fan. i was born way after the dodgers and giants left town. my earliest memories of baseball are 1981 (fourth grade for me) or maybe even 1980. but most of my memories are from the yankees "dark years" between 82-94. also known as the donnie groundout or alvaro espinoiza-bobby meachum-mike pagliarulo-pat kelly years. 
the few days i spent in high school were surrounded by mets fans, but that was 1986...an the high school was in manhattan anyway. and filled with snobby rich kids who were so obviously front-runners it made me sick.
see to me, growing up a yanks fan in the one dark period...yankees fans were REAL fans and mets fans were bandwagon jumpers. and 1995 was sad and 1996 was great! and suddenly all those mets fans became yankee fans..

but i always ask the most embarassing moment fromt he 80s to see if they are REAL fans. any takers?

cub fans got their dreams torn to shreds by the marlins...now admit it, wouldnt you rather have had your dreams dashed by the yankees in  world series? a little less embarassing, no? same thing goes for you sox fans. better to lose tomorrow than to the marlins in the series.  

as for tomorrows game 7...i just hope that when the yanks take the lead off pedro, and he throws at the next batter, that he doesnt hurt anyone.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 16, 2003)

there's always next year?  bah, don't count on me getting so worked up for them next time...


----------



## stevelabny (Oct 16, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> there's always next year?  bah, don't count on me getting so worked up for them next time...




this is the exact kinda thinking i dont understand.after watching the yankees suck for a decade, i was so into their playoff appearnce in 95. they didnt win. this didnt sour me on them. it made me want to win so much more. when they finally won in 96 i was ecstatic. i dealt with 97/98 was fun. 99 was kinda ho-hum. 2000 was only good cuz it was against the mets and a MUST WIN.  the loss in 2001 was heartbreaking only because of the back-to-back 2-out 9th inning 2 run hrs. the "script" for that series should have had the yanks win. they didnt win last year, and it didnt phase me much. i dont think this year will affect me much either way. 

BUT im also a Redskins fan in football... I've seen them win two Super Bowls since I've become a fan, but they havent been very good for quite a while now. yet when Sunday comes I'm sitting on the edge of my couch being loud and rowdy. their new young QB Patrick Ramsey Ramsey has all the signs of greatness and I cant wait to see them win again.

I'm MORE into my teams when theyre coming off years of being bad and are on the path to being good. the first win after quite a while without is SWEET. how any cubs fan can not already be wishing it was april with this good young team, i have no idea.


----------



## John Crichton (Oct 16, 2003)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> but i always ask the most embarassing moment fromt he 80s to see if they are REAL fans. any takers?



I can't remember if it was the early 90's or late 80's but the low point for me was when Andy Hawkins pitched a no-hitter and the Yanks _lost_.  I bleed Yankee pinstripes...

I'm a Yanks fan mostly because my father is.  I started really watching Yankee baseball in 84 (I was 7), which was Mattingly's rookie year oddly enough.  Until 95 (well, really 96) I thought my team sucked and we were "cursed."  All a matter of perspective I guess.


----------



## Michael Morris (Oct 16, 2003)

*[OT]They're the Cubs!!!*

They're the Cubs
*Parody of "Johnny Reb" by Johnny Horton*

_They lost all again, They're the Cubs, They're the Cubs
They lost all again, They're the Cubs,

Saw them a play'n once again in Wrigley
They held they're heads a-high, tryin' to win the victory
But it seems that the goat has finally struck again
Once again they lost, now spend another year in shame

And they lost all again, They're the Cubs, They're the Cubs
They lost all again, They're the Cubs,

I watched their teeth a chatter from the cold outside
Watched their own fan make a save for the other side
I watched in horror as the team took another fall
They had tears in their eyes, 'cause they couldn't help at all

And they lost all again, They're the Cubs, They're the Cubs
They lost all again, They're the Cubs,

I saw Dusty Baker raise a clipboard in his hand
Head the fan's roar as they made their last stand
They marched into the game in the blue and the red
When the score was a tallied once again the Cubs were dead

Cause they lost all again, They're the Cubs, They're the Cubs
They lost all again, They're the Cubs,

And now the nation heard the news about their fall
And folks are a crying at the tragedy of it all
95 years and counting have passed since victory
Graced the loveable losers who live reside in old Wrigley

But they lost all again, They're the Cubs, They're the Cubs
They lost all again, They're the Cubs,

They lost all again, They're the Cubs, They're the Cubs
They lost all again, They're the Cubs,

They lost all again, They're the Cubs, They're the Cubs
They lost all again, They're the Cubs,_


----------



## Michael Morris (Oct 16, 2003)

I don't appreciate the merge.  I understand the need to keep OT posts to a minimum, but burying this on the 8th page of this thread has doomed it to obscurity.  The song isn't going to kill anyone, and I would think some folks might want to look it up on it's own.


----------



## Kid Charlemagne (Oct 16, 2003)

I don't hold out much hope for the newspapers figuring out the real reason the Cubs didn't win - namely, Dusty Baker.

He rode his starters far too hard over the past three months.  First Zambrano, then Wood, then Prior fell from top notch starters to worn-out kids.  To be fair, they wouldn't have made the playoffs if he hadn't - the Cubs bullpen only had two good pitchers (Farnsworth and Borowski), a couple decent ones (Remlinger and, uh, OK, one decent one), and several horrible ones (Alfonseca, Veres).  

Dusty rode them into October, and they dropped like flies a series and a half too soon.  Cubs fans just have to hope that they're only tuckered out, not injured.  My personal projection is that the big three will pitch fewer innings next year, with a worse ERA.  This is a team that could be great for years, but this offseason, and the bounce-back of their three young guns will determine if 2003 was a one-shot deal, or the beginning of an Atlanta Braves kind of run.


----------



## John Crichton (Oct 16, 2003)

You can't really fault Dusty.  He had to pitch those guys.  I think the only big mistake he made was leaving in Prior too long in Game 6.  He was getting tired in that 8th inning plus he was really frustrated by that play in the stands.


----------



## Ghostwind (Oct 16, 2003)

*[OT] Dork Tower Sums Up the Cubs Experience Nicely*

In case you haven't read this yet, the new Dork Tower says it all perfectly regarding the loss of the Cubs once again.... 

Guess it's time to root for the Red Sox...


----------



## KnowTheToe (Oct 16, 2003)

The question is with 2 East Coast teams, how do you think the ratings for the WS will be?

Anybody else think there are too many playoff games?  By the end of this seceond round for the Cubs, I just couldn't care anymore.  I wanted them to win, but I can really only emotionally attach myself to so many games.  I wish they had best of 3, best of 5 and best of 7 for the WS.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 16, 2003)

the yankees are one thing.  their "slump" rarely lasts longer than a decade, and then they win yet another world series.  

the cubs were another thing altogether.  they hadn't won in so long (even longer than the red sox, who still have a chance if they don't blow it), that many fans were waiting for this season their entire lives!  it's hard to understand such a crushing disappointment if you don't come from that mindset.

of course, i'm not a cubs fan though.    i was just rooting for my hometown team when they're doing well, just like i rooted for the white sox when they made the playoffs in 2000.  of course, the white sox did far worse then than the cubs did this year.


----------



## Ghostwind (Oct 16, 2003)

Personally, I prefer the payoff system of the NFL. One game. You either win it or your season is done. Never have cared for the multiple game format that the other three major sports uses (baseball, NBA, NHL).


----------



## mooby (Oct 16, 2003)

KnowTheToe said:
			
		

> The question is with 2 East Coast teams, how do you think the ratings for the WS will be?




If it's the Red Sox, the ratings will be a lot higher than if it's the Yankees.

Outside of Yankee fans, nobody wants to see that damn team again.



GO SAWXXX!


----------



## Storminator (Oct 16, 2003)

Ghostwind said:
			
		

> Personally, I prefer the payoff system of the NFL. One game. You either win it or your season is done. Never have cared for the multiple game format that the other three major sports uses (baseball, NBA, NHL).




It only works in football. The other sports play far too many games for a single game to be meaningful. And a lot of the dynamics of baseball are screwy if you only play one game.

PS


----------



## stevelabny (Oct 16, 2003)

john... although andy hawkins pitching a no-hitter and losing 4-0 IS embarassing, the absolute WORST momemnt was when bobby meachum AND dale berra were both thrown out at home. meachum was out by a mile and barrelled into carlton fisk, so dale berra decided to try to score too. unfortunately dale berra is about as fast as i am. carlton fisk had no idea what was going on and tagged berra out too. UGH. 

and you absolutely can blame dusty baker for this loss. i predicted 8 pages ago that the cubs pitchers, most notably prior would hit the wall in the world series. they didnt even make it that far. prior had a 10 run lead in game 2 and should have been taken out EARLY. and wasnt. prior goes into the 8th inning in game 6 and not only is he still pitching, but there isnt even someone warning up just in case. dusty is a bad in-game manager. it is never good to be afraid of your bullpen.

torre has acted overly afraid of his bullpen for the last 3 years also. overworking mariano definately was a problem in 2000. but at least you know WHY torre is scared, he is spoiled by getting 2 inning saves from mariano and always hopes he can get away with that.


----------



## Maraxle (Oct 16, 2003)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> and you absolutely can blame dusty baker for this loss. i predicted 8 pages ago that the cubs pitchers, most notably prior would hit the wall in the world series. they didnt even make it that far. prior had a 10 run lead in game 2 and should have been taken out EARLY. and wasnt. prior goes into the 8th inning in game 6 and not only is he still pitching, but there isnt even someone warning up just in case. dusty is a bad in-game manager. it is never good to be afraid of your bullpen.




I agree with this statement completely.  In the 7th inning of game 6, you could see that Prior's pitches had less movement on them than the previous innings.  He was very clearly getting tired, and Dusty made no move to even have someone warming up.  He shouldn't have even been in there when the 8th inning started.

I know that Prior's a big strong kid, and has nearly flawless mechanics, but with the number of pitches per game that he threw this year I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him go down with an arm injury next season.  If so, the Cubs are a sub-.500 team next season.


----------



## John Crichton (Oct 16, 2003)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> john... although andy hawkins pitching a no-hitter and losing 4-0 IS embarassing, the absolute WORST momemnt was when bobby meachum AND dale berra were both thrown out at home. meachum was out by a mile and barrelled into carlton fisk, so dale berra decided to try to score too. unfortunately dale berra is about as fast as i am. carlton fisk had no idea what was going on and tagged berra out too. UGH.



Yes, that was bad however everyone has their own opinion of what is the most embaressing thing from that time period.  


			
				stevelabny said:
			
		

> and you absolutely can blame dusty baker for this loss. i predicted 8 pages ago that the cubs pitchers, most notably prior would hit the wall in the world series. they didnt even make it that far. prior had a 10 run lead in game 2 and should have been taken out EARLY. and wasnt. prior goes into the 8th inning in game 6 and not only is he still pitching, but there isnt even someone warning up just in case. dusty is a bad in-game manager. it is never good to be afraid of your bullpen.



Um, the Cubs pen is not what got them this far, it was their starters.  I do agree that Prior should have been taken out earlier in Game 2, however he went 7 strong in Game 6 so that arguement doesn't hold a ton of water.  I have a problem with Baker leaving him in during the 8th.  He was obviously pooped.  And as for the blame in general, how about blaming the team for giving up the runs?  What about the error at SS?  There is no one place to put the blame.  That is just insane. 


			
				stevelabny said:
			
		

> torre has acted overly afraid of his bullpen for the last 3 years also. overworking mariano definately was a problem in 2000. but at least you know WHY torre is scared, he is spoiled by getting 2 inning saves from mariano and always hopes he can get away with that.



This is Dusty's first year with the team and he doesn't have anyone close to a Rivera in that bullpen.  His relievers have been shaky as well.  My point is that it is the whole team's fault for losing the last 2 games at home.  And let's give a little credit to the Marlins, they never gave up and came back 3 straight games.  They earned it.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 17, 2003)

Well the Sox just jumped out to a 3-0 lead, but I've had this feeling all day that Wakefield, coming into the game in relief, is going to be the keystone for the Red Sox tonight.

It’s been a great series, and post season too!  I just hope whichever team wins can make the World Series into a great one.  (That’s not intended to be an understatement about Florida.)


----------



## BryonD (Oct 17, 2003)

ehhhh....  Nevermind

Presume an old traditionalists minor rant was here......

Because it was


----------



## drothgery (Oct 17, 2003)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> Dusty rode them into October, and they dropped like flies a series and a half too soon. Cubs fans just have to hope that they're only tuckered out, not injured. My personal projection is that the big three will pitch fewer innings next year, with a worse ERA. This is a team that could be great for years, but this offseason, and the bounce-back of their three young guns will determine if 2003 was a one-shot deal, or the beginning of an Atlanta Braves kind of run.



If Rob Neyer's Pythagorean standings (which calculate the expected record of a team based on runs scored vs. runs allowed; one-run games are largely decided by luck) are meaningful, the Cubs basically won their division because they were lucky (winning two games more than they should have), the Astros were very unlucky (losing eight more games than they should have), and the Cars were unlucky (losing five more games than they should have). So I wouldn't count on a Cubs dynasty.

Ignoring the luck effect, the AL division winners would have been the Yankees, White Sox, and Mariners; the Red Sox and A's would have tied for the wild card. In the NL, the Braves and Giants still win their divisions, but the Astros walk away with the central, and the Phillies win the wild card.


----------



## jaerdaph (Oct 17, 2003)

And the YANKEES TIE THE GAME!!!!!


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## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 17, 2003)

drothgery said:
			
		

> If Rob Neyer's Pythagorean standings (which calculate the expected record of a team based on runs scored vs. runs allowed; one-run games are largely decided by luck) are meaningful,



Dorthgery, if you have the time could you tell me what the KC Royals record should have been?  Just really curious to see how many games Pena stole from the competition.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 17, 2003)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Well the Sox just jumped out to a 3-0 lead, but I've had this feeling all day that Wakefield, coming into the game in relief, is going to be the keystone for the Red Sox tonight.



I hate being right... *sigh*


----------



## jaerdaph (Oct 17, 2003)

The Yankees Win!

THE-E-E-E-E YANKEES WIN!!!

Add the Curse of the Zimm to the Curse of the Babe!


----------



## Tarrasque Wrangler (Oct 17, 2003)

God is a New Yorker, apparently.


----------



## jaerdaph (Oct 17, 2003)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> God is a New Yorker, apparently.




Yes, I believe George Burns was born here...


----------



## Morpheus (Oct 17, 2003)

Yanks win!!!!! Bring on the Marlins! Boone saves the day?!?!??! Wtf?


----------



## John Crichton (Oct 17, 2003)

And The Curse gets worse.  Man, I am breathless.  SOOOO glad I left work early to catch this one.  Man.

I'm wondering why Little left Pedro in there that long.

Wow.

Just.  Wow.


----------



## Alaric_Prympax (Oct 17, 2003)

jaerdaph said:
			
		

> The Yankees Win!
> 
> THE-E-E-E-E YANKEES WIN!!!




You said IT!!!!    

Woo Hoo!!!! 

Can't wait for Saturday!!!!


----------



## stevelabny (Oct 17, 2003)

Wow!

How Great Was That Game?

Cubs: 5 Outs From World Series

Red Sox: 5 Outs From World Series

Reality: No Soup For You!


----------



## Felix (Oct 17, 2003)

Curse of the Zimm???

That old man got everything he deserved, and perhaps a little less . Bugger the "Curse of the Zimm".

Babe's ghost is still restless though...


----------



## Piratecat (Oct 17, 2003)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> Wow!
> 
> How Great Was That Game?
> 
> ...




Translation from this Boston Admin? "Hi, Piratecat! Will you ban me? Pleeeeeze?"  

Congrats, guys. We went down fighting.


----------



## ph34r (Oct 17, 2003)

The season is over with as far as I'm concerned. I doubt I'll watch the World Series because I could frankly care less about either of the teams in it!


----------



## John Crichton (Oct 17, 2003)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Translation from this Boston Admin? "Hi, Piratecat! Will you ban me? Pleeeeeze?"
> 
> Congrats, guys. We went down fighting.



Certainly.  Torre said it best when he mentioned that no one wanted to play Boston.  They have a really tough team up there in Beantown.  Someone had to lose and it doesn't get any tighter than that.  I'm still stunned that the Yanks pulled it out.

Instant Classic, in my book.

/cliche mode off


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Oct 17, 2003)

Check my website (link in .sig) for a completely serious, not at all tongue-in-cheek breakdown of what would have happened in a Sox/Cubs Series.  Fresh from my cerebral cortex to your optic nerve!


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## stevelabny (Oct 17, 2003)

just wanted to chime in with an "i told you so" after letting it sink in.
pedro pitched just good enough to lose.again.
doesnt get the L hung on him, but he let his team down.
i never want to hear him referred to as an elite pitcher again.

heres a cool quote from hero of the day,Aaron Boone.
"Like Derek told me, 'The ghosts will show up eventually,'" 

and did you see that after the game, Wells and Clemens went out to Monument Park and kissed the Babe Ruth plaque? Havent seen it online yet, but that might be a shot that needs to be framed.


----------



## Liminal Syzygy (Oct 17, 2003)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> Wow!
> 
> How Great Was That Game?
> 
> ...



I think that's an unfair comparison seeing as the Cubs blew a 3-1 series lead when the Sox were strong enough to claw themselves back up into contention and give us such memorable games 6 and 7.

As some other people have said, while I'm not a regular Cubs or Sox fan I was pulling for those teams for sentimental reasons. It's a real disappointment... tired of seeing the same teams always in the final. It's boring and bad for the overall health of the game IMHO.


----------



## John Crichton (Oct 17, 2003)

Cordo said:
			
		

> As some other people have said, while I'm not a regular Cubs or Sox fan I was pulling for those teams for sentimental reasons. It's a real disappointment... tired of seeing the same teams always in the final. It's boring and bad for the overall health of the game IMHO.



I don't see how anyone can see that Game 7 as bad for the game.  The Marlins have been one of the most exciting teams in the postseason.  It's not Cubs/Sox or Cubs/Yanks (both which would have gotten bigger ratings) but I bet they'll be good games.  The Yanks are beatable and Florida has a good team.  I think it will be an entertaining World Series, just like the rest of the playoffs.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Oct 17, 2003)

ph34r said:
			
		

> The season is over with as far as I'm concerned. I doubt I'll watch the World Series because I could frankly care less about either of the teams in it!




Guaranteed, the World Series will have dismal ratings compared to last night's game. Who cares, now?

The Red Sox motto: "Why lose today, when losing tomorrow will hurt so much more?"

They gave us a great Game 6 and a classic Game 7. As far as I am concerned, I just watched the only game worth caring about.

For what it's worth, I'd say the game turned with that play at 1st base. Pedro was there in plenty of time to make the out if he'd just flipped him the ball. And of course, Pedro was left in juuuuuust a couple pitches too long...



			
				 stevelabny said:
			
		

> just wanted to chime in with an "i told you so" after letting it sink in.
> pedro pitched just good enough to lose.again.
> doesnt get the L hung on him, but he let his team down.
> i never want to hear him referred to as an elite pitcher again.




That's the stupidest thing I've heard in a long time; the stats don't lie. 

YANKEES SUCK, by the way, and you're one of the reasons why. 


Wulf


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## John Crichton (Oct 17, 2003)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> pedro pitched just good enough to lose.again.
> doesnt get the L hung on him, but he let his team down.
> i never want to hear him referred to as an elite pitcher again.



C'mon, man.  He will retire with better numbers than Sandy Koufax.  He's a first-ballot Hall of Fame lock.

Little left him in too long.  Pedro tried to take the blame but in some situations it is the manager's job to remove a tired pitcher.  I can't put this one on Pedro.  He pitched his guts out.  I'm just happy Little left him in so my team could win.  I was SO happy when Little left him in the game.  That Boston bullpen has been nasty, especially Embre and Timlin (feels weird typing it).


----------



## Zerakon (Oct 17, 2003)

When did the Yankees add Grady Little to the payroll?

Pedro, *an elite pitcher* btw, pitched a great game.  He shouldn't be responsible for making the decision to remove himself from the game. No pitcher should. That is the manager's job.

I was actually surprised that he came in to *start* the 8th, since it was apparent he was starting to tire in the 7th.

After Jeter's double, I thought for sure, alrighty then, let's go to the bullpen. Nope.

Bernie Williams singles. Crap. OK, well now with Matsui coming up, it's Embree time... Um... nope?! What the?!!?

I was enraged at this. This was probably The Dumbest Decision By A Manager that I've ever seen. I was screaming at the TV set... well, not really, because my wife was already in bed. But I WANTED to scream.

Guess what? Double.

And he *still* left Pedro in. 

This was right up there (but not *quite* as bad) with the Buckner play for me. A game getting away that shouldn't have.

*sigh*


----------



## John Crichton (Oct 17, 2003)

I wouldn't be too worried about Little being on any payroll next season as he'll probably be looking for a job soon.


----------



## jaerdaph (Oct 17, 2003)

I had to check this board again this morning to make sure I wasn't dreaming.

And I'm not! The Yankees Win! THE-E-E-E-E YANKEES win!

Zimmer: The guy was hit in the head with a pitch an knocked unconscious for two weeks and got a metal plate in his head to boot. I don't blame him for getting emotional, even if he did act inappropriately. At least he had the class to appologize. We're still waiting, Pedro.

Pedro: One of the best pitchers of all time. Just not last night.  I suppose the same can be said for Clemmens though... 

Nobody watching the World Series: Who cares? We will be in New York! And if Fox-Jazeera loses a ratings war, who cares? Double Bonus! 

Game 7: That was one of the best post-season games ever played. My hat's off to the Red Sox for playing one hell of a great game to the bitter end. And here's to both teams for playing such an important and emotional game with the class and dignity that were missing last Saturday.

How 'bout those Mets?: You can take your October Boston caps off now guys. You know. The ones you put on after the Mets cap goes away in September?


----------



## drothgery (Oct 17, 2003)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Dorthgery, if you have the time could you tell me what the KC Royals record should have been? Just really curious to see how many games Pena stole from the competition.



http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/neyer/index

The Royals, at least according to Neyer's math, should've been 78-84, but finished five games ahead of that (83-79); only the Giants and Reds were better relative to expected W-L this year, though the Twins were just as good at 'stealing' wins. The Astros were the worst team relative to expected record (-8) -- they should have had no trouble winning the NL Central, followed by the Mariners (-6) and the Phillies (-5).

But the luck factor probably overwhelms quality of relief pitching and management skill in 1-run games, and that's where most of the difference between expected W-L and actual W-L happens.


----------



## schporto (Oct 17, 2003)

Unlike my first post in this thread I'll keep it civil.
Little blew it.  Badly.  Pedro wasn't tired.  His pitches were still in the mid 90s.  If anything I'd say he was groovin.  The Yankees bats (wince shudder) were figuring him out though.  They knew what and when to swing.  It was obvious in the 7th.  Leaving Pedro in in the 8th was dumb.  
But it was expected.  My wife wasn't sleeping.  I probably woke my neighbors up at that point.  I screamed.  I yelled.  Little didn't hear me.  And all the while that little voice in the back of my head was whispering "This.  This is how they're gonna blow it.  Not the bullpen, not the bats, not the pitching, but a stupid manager decision."
So, does this mean 20(ish) years from now Grady Little is gonna charge out of the Yankees dugout and get tossed to the ground by some young Red Sox pitcher?

My fervent wish - keep that Sox team together.  Please.  You guys were good.  Maybe hunt for another starter.  But keep those bats.  They have the chemistry.  They play well togther.
Damnit.  Thanks for the season Sox.
-cpd


----------



## AlphaOmega (Oct 17, 2003)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> C'mon, man.  He will retire with better numbers than Sandy Koufax.  He's a first-ballot Hall of Fame lock.




when someone utters the name of the Master I have to chime in. I know they showed the career numbers of Pedro and Sandy and they appear to be really close. But there is a noteable difference. In order to retire with "better numbers" than Koufax, Pedro needs some no-hitters like Sandy's 4. And he needs some WS rings. I believe Sandy has Pedro beat 3-0 in that department too.

for the record, I believe Pedro will make the Hall of Fame maybe even on the first ballot but he is not in the same level of mystique pitchers like Koufax. Yeah, he (Pedro) will have more wins and probably more K's but he still will be missing the postseason success. And I say all this even though I'm a true Red Sox fan.


----------



## Tom Cashel (Oct 17, 2003)

Ah, poor poor Pedro.  Should have stuck with 115 pitches; those last 8 were unwise.

Look on the bright side--at least he got a chance to throw a 73-year-old man face first into the grass before the series was over.

And now the goons play golf.  Karma, baby.

Go YANKEES!


----------



## BOZ (Oct 17, 2003)

have we learned our lesson yet?  there's a reason the cubs haven't won a world series in 95 years and the red sox haven't won in 85 years...


----------



## Storm Raven (Oct 17, 2003)

jaerdaph said:
			
		

> *Zimmer: The guy was hit in the head with a pitch an knocked unconscious for two weeks and got a metal plate in his head to boot. I don't blame him for getting emotional, even if he did act inappropriately. At least he had the class to appologize. We're still waiting, Pedro.*





Zimmer doesn't have a metal plate in his head. That is an urban legend.

Why should Pedro apologize? He was attacked and defended himself. Zimmer ran out looking for a fight, he got dumped. That's all. If you look for a fight, don't be surprised when your opponent defends himself.


----------



## Felix (Oct 17, 2003)

AlphaOmega:
A World Series ring does not a Hall of Famer make. Clemens was a shoe-in for the Hall _before_ he channeled Benedict Arnold and played for the Evil Empire of Baseball, and he hadn't won any WS rings either.

So I guess we shouldn't consider Ted Williams to be one of the best all time players of the game. Nor can we say that Kelly of the Buffalo Bills is worth a lick.

Bugger the WS rings. Yeah, it's nice to have and keep on their mantle, and it does show that they were part of a championship *team*, but realize there are just as many chumps out there running around with WS rings as legends.

And all this from a devoted Braves fan! Heh.

Go Marlins! Give 'em that NL East fire!


----------



## JRRNeiklot (Oct 17, 2003)

Felix said:
			
		

> Curse of the Zimm???
> 
> That old man got everything he deserved, and perhaps a little less . Bugger the "Curse of the Zimm".
> 
> Babe's ghost is still restless though...





I'm not condoning Zimmer's actions, but c'mon, he's 72 and has a plate in his head where he was almost KILLED by a bean ball.  He's entitled to get upset when some idiot is throwing at his guys.  I think what really got Zimmer riled was Pedro calmly threatening to hit people in the head, not the ball that almost got Garcia.

You gotta give old folks and children some slack.  My nephew once took a swing at me, should I have thrown the five year old to the ground?


----------



## JRRNeiklot (Oct 17, 2003)

Grrrr.  Double post.


----------



## AlphaOmega (Oct 17, 2003)

Felix said:
			
		

> AlphaOmega:
> A World Series ring does not a Hall of Famer make. Clemens was a shoe-in for the Hall _before_ he channeled Benedict Arnold and played for the Evil Empire of Baseball, and he hadn't won any WS rings either.
> 
> So I guess we shouldn't consider Ted Williams to be one of the best all time players of the game. Nor can we say that Kelly of the Buffalo Bills is worth a lick.
> ...




 if you say so... but a championship means more than something to "keep on their mantle". Why else are players busting their a$$es during spring training? You think their doing it to become legends??? Maybe in some crazy thought-process some players are thinking: "hey wouldn't my career be looked upon better if I won a championship."

when two players are compared, the number of championships each has is going to be used as criteria... Sorry to break the news to ya

for the record, go back to my post and please point out where I said or even implied a WS ring is requirement for induction to the HoF or to be considered a "great". In fact, I did say Pedro would make it. I just love it when people read only certain parts and then interrept from there randomly.


----------



## Tarrasque Wrangler (Oct 17, 2003)

AlphaOmega said:
			
		

> when someone utters the name of the Master I have to chime in. I know they showed the career numbers of Pedro and Sandy and they appear to be really close. But there is a noteable difference. In order to retire with "better numbers" than Koufax, Pedro needs some no-hitters like Sandy's 4. And he needs some WS rings. I believe Sandy has Pedro beat 3-0 in that department too.



It's a little hard to compare the baseball heroes of yesteryear with those of today.  I've heard Sandy Koufax say that if they'd had arthroscopic surgery in his day he probably would have pitched 5 more seasons.  Because of those now-routine surgeries, pitchers have a much longer shelf life in which to rack up great numbers.  But I agree with the above, it's not just the raw numbers but the level of accomplishment that determines greatness.  Pedro's still a young guy though, so who knows?


----------



## DaveMage (Oct 17, 2003)

The biggest loser in the World Series will be FOX.  A Boston or Chicago appearance would have increased the ratings for the series.

According to 1 study, a Chicago or Boston presence in the series would have produced a nightly 16+ rating, while the Yankees-Marlins is expected to receive a rating of only 12-13.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 18, 2003)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> According to 1 study, a Chicago or Boston presence in the series would have produced a nightly 16+ rating, while the Yankees-Marlins is expected to receive a rating of only 12-13.



I wonder, in all honesty, which dropped the rating more, the Yankees winning or Florida winning...

Oh well I can be a Florida fan for the next few weeks.


----------



## Krug (Oct 18, 2003)

Classic:
http://www.gamespy.com/comics/dorktower/


----------



## John Crichton (Oct 18, 2003)

AlphaOmega said:
			
		

> when someone utters the name of the Master I have to chime in. I know they showed the career numbers of Pedro and Sandy and they appear to be really close. But there is a noteable difference. In order to retire with "better numbers" than Koufax, Pedro needs some no-hitters like Sandy's 4. And he needs some WS rings. I believe Sandy has Pedro beat 3-0 in that department too.
> 
> for the record, I believe Pedro will make the Hall of Fame maybe even on the first ballot but he is not in the same level of mystique pitchers like Koufax. Yeah, he (Pedro) will have more wins and probably more K's but he still will be missing the postseason success. And I say all this even though I'm a true Red Sox fan.



I agree that rings mean something. but not as much as you are trying to make it out to be.  The numbers are still comparable which was my point.  No-hitters don't figure in as much because it depends on the fielders on the team as well as the quality of pitcher.  As for World Series rings, Koufax had Drysdale to help win.  Pedro is the only real bankable starter on that staff.

I know that numbers do not tell the whole story and am certainly not ignorant to that fact.  The fact is that when he retires the numbers will match up and possibly be even better, championships and no-hitters aside.  If Pedro were to retire right now he would make the Hall.  And I hate Pedro.


----------



## Gnome Berzerker (Oct 18, 2003)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> the few days i spent in high school were surrounded by mets fans, but that was 1986...an the high school was in manhattan anyway. and filled with snobby rich kids who were so obviously front-runners it made me sick.
> see to me, growing up a yanks fan in the one dark period...yankees fans were REAL fans and mets fans were bandwagon jumpers. and 1995 was sad and 1996 was great! and suddenly all those mets fans became yankee fans..
> 
> but i always ask the most embarassing moment fromt he 80s to see if they are REAL fans. any takers?





So, now you know what it's like to be surrounded by bandwagon jumpers, right?  Do you really think all those people would stick around if the Yanks became a bad team?

We're probably about the same age.  I'm 27.  I grew up in Yonkers, NY, as a Mets fan.  Sure, I was 10 in 1986, which made life easy on me.  You're right though, a lot of those people who rooted for the Mets back then have switched over to the Evil Empire.  Bandwagoners suck.

As much as I hate the Yanks, if you really stuck with them through the 80's, then I can really respect that.  I hope you feel the same about a Mets fan who still proudly wears a blue and orange cap every day, even if his team blows chunks.


Oh yeah, so anyway, I'm the world's biggest bandwagon Marlins fan for the next week or week-n-a-half.


----------



## Gnome Berzerker (Oct 18, 2003)

JRRNeiklot said:
			
		

> I'm not condoning Zimmer's actions, but c'mon, he's 72 and has a plate in his head where he was almost KILLED by a bean ball.  He's entitled to get upset when some idiot is throwing at his guys.  I think what really got Zimmer riled was Pedro calmly threatening to hit people in the head, not the ball that almost got Garcia.





Give me a break.  Zimmer is a jerk.  He gets all upset when it's his player who gets thrown at, but when Clemens beans Mike Piazza, Zimmer calls Piazza a baby for getting upset about having to go to the hospital.

Hypocrasy at it's greatest.  

I'm just glad the old bastard isn't coming back next year (it's in yesterday's papers).


----------



## AlphaOmega (Oct 18, 2003)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> I agree that rings mean something. but not as much as you are trying to make it out to be.  The numbers are still comparable which was my point.  No-hitters don't figure in as much because it depends on the fielders on the team as well as the quality of pitcher.  As for World Series rings, Koufax had Drysdale to help win.  Pedro is the only real bankable starter on that staff.
> 
> I know that numbers do not tell the whole story and am certainly not ignorant to that fact.  The fact is that when he retires the numbers will match up and possibly be even better, championships and no-hitters aside.  If Pedro were to retire right now he would make the Hall.  And I hate Pedro.




Well we'll just have to agree to disagree John. Cause I think rings mean more than you're trying to downplay them as. I didn't begin the comparision of Pedro and Sandy. I only answered that while their career numbers are similar there are some differences. And one of those differences is winning in the postseason.

Once again, for the 3rd time, I must point out that I agree that Pedro will make the HoF. So please everyone, please stop trying to argue that he belongs in it because you are preaching to the choir.


----------



## John Crichton (Oct 18, 2003)

AlphaOmega said:
			
		

> Well we'll just have to agree to disagree John. Cause I think rings mean more than you're trying to downplay them as. I didn't begin the comparision of Pedro and Sandy. I only answered that while their career numbers are similar there are some differences. And one of those differences is winning in the postseason.



Perhaps I'm missing your point.  But since you are agreeing that Pedro will go to the Hall of Fame then actually we are in agreement because that is all I was trying to say about Pedro in my post about Koufax.  I wasn't going for massively deep analysis.  Just a surface comparison.


----------



## JRRNeiklot (Oct 18, 2003)

Gnome Berzerker said:
			
		

> Give me a break.  Zimmer is a jerk.  He gets all upset when it's his player who gets thrown at, but when Clemens beans Mike Piazza, Zimmer calls Piazza a baby for getting upset about having to go to the hospital.
> 
> *Hypocrasy * at it's greatest.
> 
> I'm just glad the old bastard isn't coming back next year (it's in yesterday's papers).




Lol.  That's appropriate.  It's okay for Pedro to throw at guys and then THREATEN to throw at 'em so you know it's no accident, but it's not for Clemens?  Hell that ball at Piazza might have just gotten away from Clemens, but Pedro leaves no doubt by threatening the rest of the damn team.


----------



## Gnome Berzerker (Oct 19, 2003)

JRRNeiklot said:
			
		

> Lol.  That's appropriate.  It's okay for Pedro to throw at guys and then THREATEN to throw at 'em so you know it's no accident, but it's not for Clemens?




I didn't say it was ok for Pedro, either.  They're both in the wrong.  They're both jerks, punks, or whatever else you'd like to call it.



			
				JRRNeiklot said:
			
		

> Hell that ball at Piazza might have just gotten away from Clemens, but Pedro leaves no doubt by threatening the rest of the damn team.




Please tell me you're joking.


----------



## JRRNeiklot (Oct 19, 2003)

Gnome Berzerker said:
			
		

> I didn't say it was ok for Pedro, either.  They're both in the wrong.  They're both jerks, punks, or whatever else you'd like to call it.
> 
> 
> 
> Please tell me you're joking.




Nope.  Nobody but Clemens knows whether or not he threw at Piazza, but by threatening Posada and the rest of the Yankees, Pedro did everything but deliver a handwritten confession.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 19, 2003)

AL Rookie of the Year: *Angel Berroa*, He had a better second half than first, and his team won 21 more games than last year something that Godzilla can not claim. (His team actually lost more.)

AL MVP: I'm not sure is their anyone really desiring on a playoff team. Shannon Stewart
Energizing of the Twins was impressive but his numbers are not great.  Maybe this is the year to give it to a non-winner…  To bad A-Rods numbers where down this year or I think he would be a shoe in.  All that said I give it to *Alex Rodriguez* for past performances and his numbers where still gaudy for a shortstop.  

AL Cy Young: *Roy Halladay*

AL Manager of the Year: *Tony Pena*, Pretty sure no one will question this one...

NL to fallow...


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 19, 2003)

The NL was much easier to due.

NL Rookie of the Year: *Dontrelle Willis*

NL MVP: *Albert Pujols * 

NL Cy Young: *Eric Gagne*

NL Manager of the Year: *Jack McKeon* (Florida)


----------



## John Crichton (Oct 19, 2003)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> AL Rookie of the Year: *Angel Berroa*, He had a better second half than first, and his team won 21 more games than last year something that Godzilla can not claim. (His team actually lost more.)



I don't like that Matsui is eligible for the award, but a rule is a rule.  It doesn't matter than Berroa's team is improved from last year, this catagory is for individual performance.  Matsui has the better numbers and he will take the award.

Matsui:

Average - .287
RBI - 106
HR - 16
Hits - 179
Walks - 63

Berroa:

Average - .287
RBI - 73
HR - 17
Hits - 163
Walks - 29
Steals - 21 (caught 5)


			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> AL MVP: I'm not sure is their anyone really desiring on a playoff team. Shannon Stewart
> Energizing of the Twins was impressive but his numbers are not great. Maybe this is the year to give it to a non-winner… To bad A-Rods numbers where down this year or I think he would be a shoe in. All that said I give it to *Alex Rodriguez* for past performances and his numbers where still gaudy for a shortstop.



I wish I had an opinion on MVP.  Ortiz for Boston, Posada for New York and Stewart for Minnesota all are contenders.  Doesn't matter who wins this one. 


			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> AL Manager of the Year: *Tony Pena*, Pretty sure no one will question this one...



Hands down.  Torre and Little are tied for second, not that it really matters.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 19, 2003)

You did forget runs... 

Berroa 92 
Matsui 82  

Their fielding percentages where about even...  968 and 967, neither one of them great but Berroa really pulled it together at then end.  Would have been nice to have had Sweeney and Beltran for the full years, as a club and also for Berroa Numbers.

Anyhow I think it’s going to be a very close vote.


----------



## drothgery (Oct 19, 2003)

[postseason awards, specifically AL Rookie of the Year]


			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Anyhow I think it’s going to be a very close vote.



Don't you mean that you think it _was_ a very close vote? The writers vote at the end of the regular season; they just don't announce the results until after the Series is over. Otherwise post-season heroics would count (even if they're not supposed to), and I suspect Matsui's clutch hit in game 7 would end up helping his cause a lot.


----------



## stevelabny (Oct 19, 2003)

no rookie with 100 rbi has ever not won the rookie of the year award.
jackie robinson, kaz sasaki, and ichiro have all won rookie of the year after coming into mlb from another professional league.
winner: MATSUI

as for nl rookie: why would dontrelle win? compare his numbers with BRANDON WEBB. webb wins hands down. even SCOTT POSEDNIK on the brewers has a better case than dontrelle.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 20, 2003)

drothgery said:
			
		

> [postseason awards, specifically AL Rookie of the Year]
> 
> Don't you mean that you think it _was_ a very close vote? The writers vote at the end of the regular season; they just don't announce the results until after the Series is over. Otherwise post-season heroics would count (even if they're not supposed to), and I suspect Matsui's clutch hit in game 7 would end up helping his cause a lot.



I think it will be a very close race and I don't see an issue with the way I said it. 

steve, first time for everything.


----------



## John Crichton (Oct 20, 2003)

I agree that Berroa had a great year.  However, the RBI's will push Double-zilla over the top.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 20, 2003)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> I agree that Berroa had a great year.  However, the RBI's will push Double-zilla over the top.



It probably will, but we shall see.


----------



## John Crichton (Oct 20, 2003)

Okay, I think I just made him mad.  3 run homer in the first for Godzilla.  Nice...


----------



## Gnome Berzerker (Oct 20, 2003)

RBI and Runs scored are products of the players around you.  Matsui has an incredible lineup, and with that many people on base in front of him, he's bound to get more RBI.

BTW, I could be wrong here, but isn't Berroa an infielder and leadoff hitter.  It's more impressive for an infielder to put up good numbers than an outfielder, where it's expected.  And if Berroa is a leadoff hitter, he's going to have a lot less RBI chances than a guy who hits 5th or 6th.

Still, it's hard not to give it to Matsui, who had a very good year.


As for the NL Cy Young, I hate it when a reliever wins the award.  I know there wasn't a clear-cut winner among starting pitchers, and that Gagne did a wonderful job, but it still bugs me.

_Originally posted by JRRNeiklot:_


> Nope. Nobody but Clemens knows whether or not he threw at Piazza, but by threatening Posada and the rest of the Yankees, Pedro did everything but deliver a handwritten confession.




Wasn't there somebody a few pages back suggesting that Pedro was indicating that Posada was crazy when he pointed to his head? (playing Devil's Advocate here, I agree that Pedro intended to hit that Yankee outfielder who's name I can't remember at 3:45 am).


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 20, 2003)

Gnome Berzerker said:
			
		

> RBI and Runs scored are products of the players around you.  Matsui has an incredible lineup, and with that many people on base in front of him, he's bound to get more RBI.
> 
> BTW, I could be wrong here, but isn't Berroa an infielder and leadoff hitter.  It's more impressive for an infielder to put up good numbers than an outfielder, where it's expected.  And if Berroa is a leadoff hitter, he's going to have a lot less RBI chances than a guy who hits 5th or 6th.




Berroa is indeed an infielder (shortstop) he started the year batting around the 7th or 8th spot but really had at least 40 AB while batting 1,2,6, and 9.  After Tucker broke his leg he moved to the leadoff position.  He batted .333 in 63 AB while batting lead off.

He also out slugged Matsui, .451 to .435 something I found very interesting cause Berroa is 35 pounds lighter.  



			
				Gnome Berzerker said:
			
		

> As for the NL Cy Young, I hate it when a reliever wins the award.  I know there wasn't a clear-cut winner among starting pitchers, and that Gagne did a wonderful job, but it still bugs me.




Agreed, maybe Schmidt from San Francisco, but Gagne numbers are just too sick.  



			
				Gnome Berzerker said:
			
		

> Wasn't there somebody a few pages back suggesting that Pedro was indicating that Posada was crazy when he pointed to his head? (playing Devil's Advocate here, I agree that Pedro intended to hit that Yankee outfielder who's name I can't remember at 3:45 am).



Yeah that was I against you!


----------



## Qlippoth (Oct 20, 2003)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> The biggest loser in the World Series will be FOX.  A Boston or Chicago appearance would have increased the ratings for the series.
> 
> According to 1 study, a Chicago or Boston presence in the series would have produced a nightly 16+ rating, while the Yankees-Marlins is expected to receive a rating of only 12-13.



As far as I could tell, Fox lost on a lot of fronts this year: the usual inane commentary from its 2 broadcasters; all but trumpeting the Yankees' "inevitable" victory; commercials taking precedence over home runs; etc....


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 20, 2003)

Qlippoth said:
			
		

> As far as I could tell, Fox lost on a lot of fronts this year: the usual inane commentary from its 2 broadcasters;




God I couldn't agree more!  Where Jon Miller and Joe Morgan???  Buck Jr. would rather talk about anything not going on the field and Tim McCarver just needs *sigh* I guess I just cant say what he needs.   

(Yes everyone I know their doing the game on ESPN radio.)


----------



## stevelabny (Oct 20, 2003)

now we're just getting silly

outfielders are supposed to be run better run producers than infielders?
maybe once upon a time, but this is 2003
maybe you guys have met arod, nomar,tejada, kent , soriano? 
youre defensive position no longer has any impact on what you can do with a bat. as more and more 1st and 3rd basemen become severe power threats rather than 7-spot hitters who bat for average, and more middle infielder become the best offensive players in baseball rather than rey ordonez...
there are more and more outfielders who are there to be contact guys or speed guys or (gasp) glove guys.

berroa outslugged matsui which is surprising because he WEIGHS less? this could be the most nonsensical comment in this thread. what does weight have to do with ANYTHING. soriano doesnt weigh a lot lets throw random accolades on him for no apparent reason. or just to be fair lets compliment a fat guy who steals bases. should we compare hairstyles or skin tone next?

fox "rooting" for theyankees or predicting yankee victory? funny, i hear this one a lot from yankee-bashers (and stupid bandwagon jumper yankee fans say the EXACT opposite). can someone PLEASE write down all the pro-yankee quotes cuz i dont see it.at all. and as much as i dislike tim mccarver because he broadcasts every game like its someones first (dear tim, you broadcast the game to me, and I'LL teach my girlfriend, or my foreign freind, or my kids)  i still like joe buck. but i cant believe someone is REQUESTING joe morgan and jon miller? miller is a cure for insomnia and joe morgan is awful... do we really need to hear another big red machine story? every play he calls is a comparison to himself or the big red machine. its BRUTAL.


----------



## Storm Raven (Oct 20, 2003)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> *now we're just getting silly
> 
> outfielders are supposed to be run better run producers than infielders?
> maybe once upon a time, but this is 2003
> ...





Now you are just getting silly.

Look at the ranks of the best hitters in baseball. You will find that they are dominated by (a) outfielders, and (b) first basemen. Still. Even in 2003, the best 25 hitters in baseball are mostly outfielders and first basemen.

Look at the bottom 25 hitters in baseball. You will note that those ranks are dominated by shortstops, second basemen, and catchers. Even in 2003.

Jeter is one of the best hitting shortstops in baseball, but when you compare him to outfielders, he would rank in the middle of the pack in terms of hitting. The same holds true for guys lkike Tejada and Garciaparra. The key isn't the absolute terms in which you hit, but the relative value of your contribution compared to the contributions of other guys at your position on other teams. Matsui through the season was a decent hitter, but virtually every other team in baseball fielded a left fielder who was about as good a hitter as Matsui, which makes his contribution less valuable than the contribution of a guy like, say Posada, who outhit his peers by quite a bit.


----------



## Storm Raven (Oct 20, 2003)

AlphaOmega said:
			
		

> Well we'll just have to agree to disagree John. Cause I think rings mean more than you're trying to downplay them as. I didn't begin the comparision of Pedro and Sandy. I only answered that while their career numbers are similar there are some differences. And one of those differences is winning in the postseason.




Koufax's rings mean less than you think though. The big negative for Koufax on that score is that he played in a era when it was easier to get to the World Series (fewer teams). His raw numbers are also affected by the fact that he played in an era where the rules of the game favored pitchers in several ways.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 20, 2003)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> now we're just getting silly
> 
> outfielders are supposed to be run better run producers than infielders?  maybe once upon a time, but this is 2003
> maybe you guys have met arod, nomar,tejada, kent , soriano?




Yes, by pretty much anyone’s standard on baseball you should get most of your offensive production from the corners.  Even in 2003, we will look into this statement but first one more quote. 



			
				stevelabny said:
			
		

> more middle infielder become the best offensive players in baseball rather than rey ordonez...



That whole statement proves my point...   (I even cut out the part that made you look foolish...  1st and 3rd Baseman are almost always powerhitters and bat much higher than 7th)

Leys go look at some starting infielders to see the "incredible" offensive numbers their putting up.  (note all the numbers have links that will take you to their numbers)

*2nd Base*, their was 2 people who had more than 30 homeruns and only *one * player to have more than a 100 RBIs!

*Shortstop*, their was 4 players with more than a 100 RBIs and again only 1 player that had more than 30 Homeruns. (Though he did lead his league.)

Shall we look at the corners?

*1st Base*, their was 6 players with more than 100 RBIs, damn that ties SS and 2B by itself!  Their was 7 players that had more than 30 homeruns which is a little more than twice as much that 2B and SS combined.

*3rd Base*, theirs really not that many great power hitting in the game that play 3rd today but they still managed to have 4 players have 100 RBI seasons and 1 player had 30 homeruns. 

Corner Outfielders?  Sure why not!
*Left field*, okay their was 5 players that had more than 30 homeruns and 7 players that had at least 100 RBIs.

*Right field*, 5 100 RBI players and another 5 30 HR guys.

Well that’s your corners and that where your production comes from...  Even in 2003.



			
				stevelabny said:
			
		

> berroa outslugged matsui which is surprising because he WEIGHS less? this could be the most nonsensical comment in this thread.



No I think I proved that this comment has that honor… 


			
				stevelabny said:
			
		

> now we're just getting silly
> 
> outfielders are supposed to be run better run producers than infielders?  maybe once upon a time, but this is 2003
> maybe you guys have met arod, nomar,tejada, kent , soriano?




Anyhow back to work. 


			
				stevelabny said:
			
		

> what does weight have to do with ANYTHING. soriano doesnt weigh a lot lets throw random accolades on him for no apparent reason.



Well let see slugging, often abbreviated SLG, is a statistic based upon how many bases your getting per an AB.  If you hit 1.000 and hit an homerun every time your SLG would be 4.000 if you hit a 1.000 but only hit a single then your SLG would only be 1.000 (quite impressive but you can tell already that the statistic is against single hits and favors power hitters.  Also if you look at baseball history the highest SLG are always dedicated to power hitters…. The list goes something like this, please note I couldn’t find the actually list:
Bonds
Ruth
Ruth
Bonds

Ruth was no light guy, I think we will all agree that he weighted more than either Berroa or Matsui and Bonds we will cover below. 
Here are the leaders from this season: link
Here are the top few with there playing weight.
Bonds’ weight: 238 and his weight when we came up as a rookie…  185.  Now the last time I looked he has been hitting more homeruns of late.  Now not all of it is weight, but lets keep this simple for now.
Pujols’ weight: 226
Helton’s weight: 204
Edmonds’ weight: 212
Sheffield‘s Weight: 205
Rodriguez’s Weight: 210
Delgado’s Weight: 230
Ortiz’s Weight: 230
Ramirez’s Weight: 213

Okay that was the top ten.  All of them weight more than Berroa by 30 pounds, yet a few of them are lighter than Matsui, but lets leave that to the side for right now.  

See power and homeruns are generated by a few things:
*Bat speed* (which comes from strength, either upper body or lower body.  Strength comes from Muscle that we all know weighs a lot.  Hence heavy people slugging more.)
*Leverage * (often over looked by it’s a proven fact that people who weigh more, Hence heavy people slugging more.)
*Pitch recognition and hand eye coordination*.  (The reason why my 240 is not hitting homeruns in the majors.)

So yes weight does have more than a subtle effect on the ball and how far it flies, but it isn’t the only factor and that’s why Berroa can out slug Matsui.    Isn’t Matsui a big time power hitter?  That’s why the Yankees are paying him 6 Million a year to play in this league and not the Japanese league.  I see Matsui season to be a major disappointment as everyone was prediction 30 to 40 homeruns out of him and he didn’t even make 20.  Not everything in a Yankee uniform is golden.


----------



## JRRNeiklot (Oct 20, 2003)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Koufax's rings mean less than you think though. The big negative for Koufax on that score is that he played in a era when it was easier to get to the World Series (fewer teams). His raw numbers are also affected by the fact that he played in an era where the rules of the game favored pitchers in several ways.





Fewer teams meant it was HARDER to get to the world series.  Fewer teams means better talent.  Since expansion, there are guys playing now who wouldn't be good enough otherwise.  If you have 10 teams with 25 players, that's 250 guys and the 251st is just not good enough.  Add another team and he's the first to be picked.  In Koufax' "era" (which I take as an insult since he retired two years before I was born, grrrr) it was a lot harder to get to the world series.


----------



## Storm Raven (Oct 20, 2003)

JRRNeiklot said:
			
		

> Fewer teams meant it was HARDER to get to the world series.  Fewer teams means better talent.  Since expansion, there are guys playing now who wouldn't be good enough otherwise.  If you have 10 teams with 25 players, that's 250 guys and the 251st is just not good enough.  Add another team and he's the first to be picked.  In Koufax' "era" (which I take as an insult since he retired two years before I was born, grrrr) it was a lot harder to get to the world series.




No.

Fewer teams makes it much _easier_ to get to the World Series. That means that there are fewer teams to compete with, hence, each tem has a higher percentage chance of making it to the World Series to begin with. Plus, when there are fewer levels of playoffs, getting to the World Series is much easier (more levels of playoof make a World Series appearance exponentially more difficult to achieve).

Further, the "dilution" argument doesn't work. The population base per major league slot is much greater now than it was in the 19502/1960s. In other words, there are many more people in the population for every single Major League job than there were in Koufax's era. Assuming that baseball talent is more or less evenly distributed in the population, that means that there are many more people competing for every major league job now than there were in the past.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 20, 2003)

JRRNeiklot said:
			
		

> Fewer teams meant it was HARDER to get to the world series.  Fewer teams means better talent.  Since expansion, there are guys playing now who wouldn't be good enough otherwise.  If you have 10 teams with 25 players, that's 250 guys and the 251st is just not good enough.



Don't forget theirs more countries playing baseball now, hence more players to pool from, and MLB is a world league now.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 24, 2003)

This thread has gotten very quite...  Is anyone even watching the World Series?

Another great came tonight, I think the Yankess where going to do it AGAIN.


----------



## Dungannon (Oct 24, 2003)

I for one have very little interest in this World Series, but it's nice to know that the Yankees lost.


----------



## Krug (Oct 24, 2003)

Yeah.. well hope Marlins closes them out in game 6.


----------



## John Crichton (Oct 24, 2003)

I listen to the games at work.  But there is no work this weekend.  I am hoping for a long day of football on Sunday followed by a Game 7.  Yankee Stadium hasn't hosted a Game 7 in the World Series in my lifetime so I really hope there is one.  I know most folks hate the Yanks but a Game 7 would do baseball even more good that it already has this post-season.  Ratings are up for the first time in 4 years for the World Series.  Time to take back the Nation Pastime where it belongs.


----------



## Dimwhit (Oct 26, 2003)

> *Originally posted by Dimwhit*
> The Marlins will play the Yankees. The Marlins will win it all.




For the record, I made this call before the two League Championship Series'.

WAY TO GO MARLINS!!


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 26, 2003)

Dimwhit, good call.

and an Awesome series!


----------



## John Crichton (Oct 26, 2003)

Very entertaining Series.  Hats off to the Marlins, they played better in the clutch.  I'm dissappointed in my Yanks who I believed were the better team.  Heads are gonna roll in Steinbrenner land...


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 26, 2003)

JC, agreed.  I am sorry for you that your team lost.  You’re a cut above the rest.   I think Tore (spelling?) is ready to move on he's lasted longer than I think any Yankee manager has since I've been alive and you know working for Steinbrenner has to be a hard life.


----------



## Krug (Oct 26, 2003)

Great play by Marlins and Beckett. Their D was outstanding. Great game and series!


----------



## John Crichton (Oct 26, 2003)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> JC, agreed. I am sorry for you that your team lost. You’re a cut above the rest.



Thanks, man.  I kept coming back to this thread because of the interesting baseball talk.  


			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> I think Tore (spelling?) is ready to move on he's lasted longer than I think any Yankee manager has since I've been alive and you know working for Steinbrenner has to be a hard life.



He'll probably be back unless he is fired.  One more year left on his contract.  I hope he is back, personally.


----------



## stevelabny (Oct 26, 2003)

the funny thing is, ive always been following a thread on a fantasy baseball mesage board and the blame of the yankees as everything thats wrong with baseball is STILL going on, even though the yankees havent won in three years.

oh well.


----------



## LightPhoenix (Oct 26, 2003)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> the funny thing is, ive always been following a thread on a fantasy baseball mesage board and the blame of the yankees as everything thats wrong with baseball is STILL going on, even though the yankees havent won in three years.



So it makes their next victory all the more sweet.

Seeing as how you're from Brooklyn, this next part is not meant to be personal.  Just thought I should warn.

For my opinion, I have nothing against the Yankees, seeing as how I don't particularly like baseball (though I did watch the WS).  However, I do have a beef with the fans of the Yankees.  Mainly, that they get all hysterical over the game.  A game.  Seriously, if you're gonna be praying to gods in the middle of a game, and start crying when they lose... you've gotta back off.  It's just a game.

To be fair, I have the same problem with Red Sox fans (I have lots of friends that go to college at BU).  Well, really I have issues with all fans, in all sports, that are like this.  But being from New York (and yes, there is more state than just NYC ), the Yankees are who I hear about the most.


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## stevelabny (Oct 26, 2003)

welcome to the world of professional sports.
this isnt specific to yanks/sox fans.
its all over.
if anything, the average yankee fan is LESS prone to crying and praying because they 1> usually BELIEVE their team will win and 2> have seen their team win at least once in their lifetime.

but people over-react to their favorite sports teams in every city and country around the world.

and they call you a loser for shedding a tear over a fictional chracter, whether it be from a game, a movie, or a book.

stones and glass houses and all that.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 26, 2003)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> if anything, the average yankee fan is LESS prone to crying and praying because they 1> usually BELIEVE their team will win and 2> have seen their team win at least once in their lifetime.




Can't argue with that logic. 



			
				stevelabny said:
			
		

> but people over-react to their favorite sports teams in every city and country around the world.




Without a doubt... 

Oh and I'm predicting a 200 Million dollar payroll for the Yankees next year.


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## John Crichton (Oct 26, 2003)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Oh and I'm predicting a 200 Million dollar payroll for the Yankees next year.



That scares me, even as a Yanks fan. Vlad Guerrero is available, Bartolo Colon is available. They will bring back Pettite. They MAY even try for Tejada and ask him to play third or second. Oi.

They may not start @ $200 mil, but they will most likely end the season there.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 26, 2003)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> That scares me, even as a Yanks fan. Vlad Guerrero is available, Bartolo Colon is available. They will bring back Pettite. They MAY even try for Tejada and ask him to play third or second. Oi.



I agree, but they’re also going save some money with Clemens retiring...  But wow!  When you think about what's out their it does get scary.  I'll try and look on the bright side, the Royals are in the central, and the more you spend the more my team gets in the luxury tax and maybe just maybe we will be able to pay Beltran. 



			
				John Crichton said:
			
		

> They may not start @ $200 mil, but they will most likely end the season there.



My prediction was actually for the start of the season but maybe that is too bold; I will stay with it though.


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## John Crichton (Oct 26, 2003)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> I agree, but they’re also going save some money with Clemens retiring... But wow! When you think about what's out their it does get scary. I'll try and look on the bright side, the Royals are in the central, and the more you spend the more my team gets in the luxury tax and maybe just maybe we will be able to pay Beltran.



Heheh.  No matter how much the Yanks go over the cap, it still won't be enough for any one team to sign a star.  I do hope the teams that get the money actually spend it instead of pocketing it.

Clemens only made $7 mil this year but he was guaranteed $10 on top of it even if he didn't play for them.  So there is $17 right there.  I don't think they'll bring Boone back and most of those relievers will be gone except Rivera.  If they sign all the guys I mentioned then they will bust the 200 mark before they even play one game but I can't see that happening.  They'll get one, maybe 2 of them.  They'll make a ton of other moves via trades but many of them will probably seem small at the time.

That's my prediction.  

I'm actually just as interested in what Boston does.  They have a bunch of free agents and will probably be hiring a new manager.  Will be an interesting offseason...


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## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 26, 2003)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> I'm actually just as interested in what Boston does.  They have a bunch of free agents and will probably be hiring a new manager.  Will be an interesting offseason...



Indeed it will.   I don't think the Royals will be able to compete with the east coast teams but I think they can sneak in and steal the central next year.  This year we looked like the walking wounded out of a WWII, and they still where close.  I can't believe how many trades they made but I think most of them will be gone this year.  Randa isn't that good anymore and I do believe we freed up his cap room so who knows.


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## John Crichton (Oct 26, 2003)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Indeed it will.  I don't think the Royals will be able to compete with the east coast teams but I think they can sneak in and steal the central next year. This year we looked like the walking wounded out of a WWII, and they still where close. I can't believe how many trades they made but I think most of them will be gone this year. Randa isn't that good anymore and I do believe we freed up his cap room so who knows.



The Central is the Twins to loose next year.  KC will need some starting pitching if they want to do better than this year.  They were able to make some early comebacks and really shocked some people.  They need to hold on to their superstars, keep Sweeney healthy, get another quality starter and decent reliever.  The Twins underachieved this year (until September) and could next year as well.

I think KC is an exciting team that, if they keep this group of guys together could make a solid run in the next few years.  Sweeney is a scary hitter who can carry them for games at a time.  If KC could sign Colon (which they most likely won't as he will want around $14 mil/year) that would give them a great shot at the division crown.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Nov 10, 2003)

Looks like Berroa just won the AL Rookie of the Year...  

I shall gloat now.  

Read all about it!


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## stevelabny (Nov 10, 2003)

i cant believe they gave both roty awards to the wrong people. what a travesty


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## John Crichton (Nov 10, 2003)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> i cant believe they gave both roty awards to the wrong people. what a travesty



Yeah, I don't agree with the Matsui choice but it was close enough for it to not be a big deal to me.  Congrats to Berroa.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Dec 4, 2003)

Well since we have an Off Topic forum now we have an honest to goodness chance to talk about baseball with out other board members having issues. 

Interesting off season so far, who wants to talk about baseball?


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## stevelabny (Dec 5, 2003)

Javier Vasquez!

::does dance of joy::

curt schilling THIS. 

:-D


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## John Crichton (Dec 5, 2003)

I'm glad that the Yanks got Vasquez but let's not go thinking that he's Shilling or anything.  Let's be realistic.  

Yanks just need to re-sign Pettite and maybe go out and get another starter just in case of injury and they'll be all set.


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## stevelabny (Dec 5, 2003)

Vasquez is BETTER than schilling. because he's YOUNGER than schilling.
the Yanks are already very old and needed a younger arm.

resigning pettitte is the PRIORITY #1 RIGHT NOW.

that would make the starting staff:  Mussina, Pettitte, Vasquez, Contreras, Lieber. So assuming Lieber is on schedule, they dont NEED another starter. And they can always resign Wells if they want too. (Or the Phillies withdrew their offer from Millwood but thats just a pipe-dream)

Now what the Yanks should REALLY do after Pettitte is find away to get Carlos Beltran. Then I'd be really happy.

And put a bunch of Yankees on my fantasy team for the first time in a long time.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Dec 6, 2003)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> Now what the Yanks should REALLY do after Pettitte is find away to get Carlos Beltran.




I wouldn't be happy, but that should be every teams priority right their.  Fair warning though, he starts out slow, and I'm not talking Donnie Baseball slow, I mean REAL slow.

He always seems to think it’s the cold weather...


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## Krug (Dec 6, 2003)

Hmm how about we lay this thread to rest and start a new one?
Not sure how much effect it has on the database but right now it's inconveniently long.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Dec 6, 2003)

Krug said:
			
		

> Hmm how about we lay this thread to rest and start a new one?
> Not sure how much effect it has on the database but right now it's inconveniently long.



I have some thread on here 50 pages long. 

Though in this case a new name on this thread is needed..


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## Krug (Dec 7, 2003)

Well for that thread I think everything in there is probably relevant. The earlier posts in this thread discusses stuff that's long past. We should close it before some Cubs or Red Sox fan stumbles across it and gets an aneurysm.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Dec 7, 2003)

Krug said:
			
		

> Well We should close it before some Cubs or Red Sox fan stumbles across it and gets an aneurysm.



If they haven't already their not true fans...


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## Eridanis (Dec 7, 2003)

This room is closing; please move down the hall to 

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1257184

for continued discussion!


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