# Gaming W/Jemal: War of Gods



## Jemal (May 4, 2011)

Hello again boys and girls.  So I've been thinking about my Epic campaign idea since I came back (Come on you all knew that was coming the instant you saw I was back), and I've finally nailed down specifics (With some help from Albedo, who will be joining me as Co-DM).

I originally pondered reworking/restarting one of my old campaigns but eventually decided against it (For various reasons).


War of Gods is an Epic Campaign of 40th level.  It will pit a group of mortals(and perhaps a few immortals) against the Gods themselves.
Over the past years the battles between good and evil have grown exponentially, finally breaking into full on war last year.  All of the planes are in chaos as the most primal and powerful forces of the universe are pitted against each other.  The Prime material plane is a primary battleground, and the mortals within it are on the verge of destruction.

The neutral deities have done their best to keep the balance, but with so many enemies to contend with, the best they've been able to do is to keep the gods from personally interfering.  This does not, however, stop their servants, nor their Avatars, from wreaking havoc.  The extent of the powers being used are such that magic itself is being 'drained' for lack of a better term.  Spellcasters find themselves unable to perform the simplest of tricks, as the Gods are monopolizing the power.  

As very powerful beings yourselves, you will band together in an attempt to end the war.  How you choose to do that, which side you choose, is up to you.  Who will prevail? Good? Evil? Will balance be restored, or will the gods fall completely?

As the campaign starts, you are all coming through a major port, a massive city built upon a chain of floating islands, the primary hub for airships.  You've noticed signs and posters about a meeting for powerful adventurers, calling on those who are fed up with the Gods war to come help put an end to it.


*Character Creation Info: *
Allowed Sources: Anything goes, DM right to refusal as per usual. Also See spellcasting details.

40th level (Starting Xp = Base for level, we won't be allowing any XP spending or crafting)
Stat system: 90 points (1 for 1 basis, minimum 10 maximum 18.  These are your BASE stats, not including racial/level/etc modifiers)
HP: Max for all HD.
13,600,000 GP (As standard).  No item creation chart, item power stacking is allowed, slot-swapping is not.  No repeat Times/day or expendable items.

Race/Templates:
Dissallowed Templates: Psuedonatural, Feral, Lolth-touched, Insectile
Dissallowed Races: Anything with a Good/Evil alignment subtype
More to be added, this will be updated as things come up.

[sblock=Paragon] : LA+16, with the following Changes:
The Speed Tripling is considered an Enhancement bonus like Haste/ Boots of swiftness, and does not stack with other enhancements.
SR = HD+26, not CR+25. This means that if it's your only Template, your SR will be 50, the equivalent of ECL+10.
DR 15/Epic

Also keep in mind that some of the Paragon's abilities state they replace(do not stack with) the existing creature's ability (Natural armour bonus, Fast Healing, Resistance/DR/SR).
Also, the creature's +10 Skill bonus is a Competence bonus, which is the same kind that most magical items give, and does not stack.[/sblock]

RE: Level Adjustment:  We'll be working Epicness off of HD, so your BAB and Saves will continue to go up until you have 20 HD, after which they will begin progressing as Epic.  This also affects Epic Feat progression in that you do not qualify for Epic Feats until you have 21+HD.


Spellcasting : OK, here's the big change between this campaign and most.  NO SPELLCASTING.  This includes similar styles such as Invocations, Incarnum, Psionics, or Book of Nine Swords(Which is designed to help fighters catch up to Casters).  Magical items, Spell like abilities, and other magical effects still function, but the gods are using so much magic that spellcasting has lost its power.  We do have allowances in place if people want to play spellcasting classes with other abilities (IE Bard, Druid, etc), so if you have a concept in mind mention it.

Divine Connections: No classes closely connected to divine/good or infernal/evil powers will be allowed, as they will have sided with a specific cause already. (Cleric, Paladin, Favoured Soul, etc).  Same goes for Feats/Powers/etc with specific connections to Dieties or to Good/Evil.  This also means that your characters should not directly worship a god, although Neutral gods may be acceptable. (Depending on whether the party decides to reset the status quo or go all-god-slaying)

IMMUNITIES - I dislike characters having numerous immunities, so I'm limiting each character to only have one or two immunities. I wouldn't suggest instant-death cuz I don't use it, so it'd be kinda pointless. What this means is you could be immune to one element, or crits, or have Mind Blank or Freedom of Movement, but not multiples. Minor stuff doesn't matter (immunities to poison/disease, shield=magic missile immunity, etc), but I don't want a bunch of characters running around immune to a dozen different things.
*NOTE: This does not mean you get to pick one or two FREE, just that you can't HAVE more than a couple.*


ALIGNMENT: your characters CAN be Good or Evil, but that shouldn't be a major part of their outlook (See above, re:divine connections).  The only real requirement I have here is that the party work together.

THEME: The theme of the campaign is similar in style to Mythological Mortal vs Gods (Hercules, God of War, etc).  I'm not going to dissalow any concepts b/c they're not 'medieval' or 'mythological', but keep it in mind.  We're looking for epic (non-spellcasting!) battles between you and the primal forces of the universe.

Pantheon: We will be using pretty much every printed deity, plus a few of our own.  The pantheon is Massive.  It needs pruning. 

PLANAR INFO: Important planes outside of the material 
SIGIL = Central city of the planes, neutral.
Infinite layers of the Abyss = CG
Grey waste of Hades = Most Evil Plane
Nine hells of Baator = LE
Seven Heavens of Celestia = LG
Blessed Fields of Elysium = Most Good Plane
Olympian Glades of Arborea = CG

Hades and Elysium are actually the 'pinacles' of Good and Evil as far as the great wheel is concerned. (Just FYI, I would not suggest heading there unprepared)

We'll also be using planes outside of the Great Wheel (though I'm not going to allow you to start with portals to them), and much fighting will probaly happen on the Prime Material (It's the primary warground, hence why you're all trying to stop them from wrecking the joint) unless you guys decide to push into the outer planes right away.

[sblock= other Balance issue stuff]
 One-hit-kills - I dislike attack forms meant to end a fight with a single attack, such as instant death attacks, "Save-OR" effects, etc. It's not as prevalent in a non-spellcasting campaign, and I'm not going to outlaw it, but be warned that every time you use one of these effects, I WILL use a similar method back on your character in the near future, and that's pretty much the only time I'll use such attacks. Just remember the rule of MAD.

And I'd prefer it if people didn't pump their stats TOO much (Specifically AC, Attack bonuses, Saves). I'd prefer not to have the case of "Monster needs a 20 to hit player X, a 2 to hit anyone else" or "OK, saves everybody.. X and Y need 20's, everyone else don't roll a 1". 
It makes encounter design a lot more of a headache when the numbers are too far gone. SO, If you notice your numbers are a LOT higher (Say more than 20) than everyone else, either look into devoting less to that stat, or helping the others bring their power up to your level.

Don't be too worried about keeping in line with the other players, everyone SHOULD have their own unique strengths and weaknesses, just don't go overboard on pumping something. If any of your Attack/AC/Saves numbers has three digits, for example, it's probably too high...
Unless you can all swing such numbers in which case - Sweet, I can take off the gloves and throw the paragon pseudonatural half-draconic 3-headed tarrasquelich at you guys.  j/k... mostly.[/sblock]


FATE POINTS
After each section/chapter/combat, or after a particularly good role playing stint, I will be giving Fate Points to characters who I feel did something noteworthy (Keeping in mind that they ARE Epic, and thus held to a different level of 'noteworthy' than most), or that helped to advance the story. VERY Occasionally, I will give a Fate point out of order just b/c somebody did something TRULY EPIC that needs rewarding.

Fate points will have several uses, primary among them being that once a character has accumulated 5 or more, they will be able to start unlocking powers simliar to Divine Beings.
Other uses: 
Fate points can be used (Temporary, regenerating when a character rests) to gain a reroll (Like the clerical luck domain), or to have something happen that the Player wants to happen (Within reason, and provided it is not against the good of the story) IE A player could use it to 'find' a clue when he's stuck on a puzzle, or discover a weakness in an apparently unbeatable foe.

Fate points can be permanently spent (Burnt) to do one of the following: 
Cast Wish or Miracle as a full-round action without spending XP. (DM still has final say, but I will be much more lenient on Wishes used like this, since Fate is a very powerful resource.)
Gain half a level of XP.
Gain a Non-epic Magical Item *can be added on to a current Item if slot is required*. (DM has final say on allowed Items. If i disallow the item you will retain the Fate point)

So basically you can keep them and build up towards 'divine' power (rather an alternative to Divine Power.  ), or expend them to increase your Mortal powers or make your life a little easier.

INJURIES
How I'll be describing how injured enemies are will be based on a percentage of their total hp, modified by how difficult it is to gage their wounds (It's easier to tell how hurt a normal person is comapared to say Someone fully covered in platemail, or a strange monster). I'll post one of these up every few rounds.

Uninjured: HP>90%
Mildly Injured: 70-90%
Injured: 50-70%
Badly Injured: 30-50%
Severely Injured: 10-30%
Nearly Dead: HP<10%


----------



## Shayuri (May 4, 2011)

iiiiiiiiiinteresting.

At first I was gonna submit a druid idea, but no spellcasting...

Well, lemme ponder.

Am I correct in thinking the gods will be flinging spells at us?

Edit - Considering a monk build...maybe monk/ninja? Hm. Monk/Scout?

That has potential. Moar as I grind fle...er...numbers.

Oh! Oh! What about a Druid concept focusing on Wild Shape? A Master of Many Forms build? Normally worthless because Shapechange is so much better, but if the spell is off limits it gives that PrC new life!

...in fact, I could even try to get the best of both worlds.

Monk 20 / Alt Ranger (wildshaping) 5 / Master of Many Forms 10 / Warshaper 5

Lets see. Start off as a ranger to get the BAB. Then take the monk levels. Then the MMF.

And a few epic wildshape feats for exotic stuff...


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (May 4, 2011)

Ok, I would love to give this a try. There is a non-spell casting style character I've ALWAYS wanted to try out. But... it's kind of... strange. How do I describe this... He is a master Harpooner. The idea behind the character is to employ fleshgrinding weapons attached to chains of the adamantine or magically enhanced aurorum (for more durability) variety. The chains on the other end are attached to immovable rods, soveriegn glued to the floor, or hooked to other weapons of fleshgrinding (chaining two baddies together on one chain would be funny as hell).

Kind of outside of the box, but I thought I'd pitch the idea anyways.


----------



## Jemal (May 6, 2011)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> Oh! Oh! What about a Druid concept focusing on Wild Shape? A Master of Many Forms build? Normally worthless because Shapechange is so much better, but if the spell is off limits it gives that PrC new life!
> 
> ...in fact, I could even try to get the best of both worlds.
> 
> ...




And that was the exact concept that made us think of giving some compensation for lack of spellcasting "what about the wildshapers?!?"

Though.. Didn't think it'd look like that, was expecting more druid (or, you know... any at all.. *L*)
Where's the wildshaping ranger alt from? (And if you're taking it for the BAB, that was one of the increases we were planning on giving Druid to account for the spell loss)


Dharuhk - I kinda like the concept, but Fleshgrinding has always been one of my least favourite weapon attributes b/c I've heard of some nasty abuses for it.. Especially in a nonspellcasting campaign.  

Got any other ideas while I ponder that one?  If it's the only thing that's really floating yer boat right now, we'll try to make it work, but if there's anything else, I'd like to hear it first.



Also, tsk tsk.. 48 hours and only 2 replies?  I'm mildly surprised.  Dharuhk you dirty rat, you stole all my epic gamers.   Mind if I plug this there in case anybody didn't notice and feels like a second helping?


----------



## Shayuri (May 6, 2011)

It's in the SRD under the Unearthed Arcana material. Basically the ranger loses its Combat Technique stuff and gains druidic Wild Shape, but only Small or Medium, and only animals...never elementals.

Neither limitation is meaningful when paired with MoMF of course.

That said, if Druid is getting spiffs in exchange for losing spellcasting, I'd be interested to see what those are before making a decision.

Though rangers have spellcasting too! 

Oh oh, another question. I'm looking for ways to increase the effective druid level for purposes of Wild Shape Hit Dice. I don't suppose Practiced Spellcaster counts? Or would the Warshaper levels count? Just making sure I'm not missing something obvious. 16 Hit Dice isn't BAD, but it still rules out quite a bit.


----------



## Jemal (May 6, 2011)

Well, you could always take more levels of things that provide Wild shape..  
MoMf adds, but Warshaper doesn't (It specifically doesn't add to spellcasting or other forms of shapechanging, so I'd rule it doesn't add to wild shape either.. Aside from the hefty bonuses it allready gives)
But yeah, that's the downside of multiclassing, you loose the higher level benefits.  You could take Epic MoMf... Bonus Epic feats is always fun, especially for a wild shaper.


----------



## Shayuri (May 6, 2011)

Hmm, that's possible...is there a write up of Epic MoMF?

I spose I can google it.

You allow Wilding Clasps, right? Pretty central to making sure those special goodies make the change.


----------



## Jemal (May 6, 2011)

Yeah, with Exalted being out(Meaning no vow of poverty), and spellcasting being out (Meaning no buffs), Wilding clasps are kinda required, so no problem with them.


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (May 6, 2011)

I'm not using the fleshgrinding weapons in a ridiculous fashion. Its not like I plan on throwing 50 fleshgrinding weapons in a round with marrowcrushing, wounding and Souldrinking on them.

I'm planning on using a spring attack character who harpoons his opponent and attempts to ancher them in place. Fleshgrinding is the only decent method of getting the weapon itself to stay in them, though against the chains and whatever they are anchored too they still get checks.

Heres an example of about the worst this character would do.

1. Use Quickdraw to pull out a harpoon assembly (Harpoon, adamantine chain, immovable rod)

2. Use belt of battle to gain additional move action, turn on immovable rod.

3. Spring attack my opponent, leaving harpoon in him and moving past him.

4. Use free action to pull another harpoon assembly out of glove of storing, this one preactivated. 

5. Repeat Steps 3 and 4, then repeat step 3 again.

End result, my opponent is attacked 3 times, and is now anchored in place from 3 different directions, leaving him the choice of pulling the harpoons out, breaking through the chains, or teleporting away (which pretty much negates the whole thing ), or just plain attacking me instead and not caring about the whole harpoon thing. In addition the harpoons will continue to deal their weapon damage for a few turns afterwards, but as long as the weapons only deal straight damage (no saves, ability score loss or negetive levels) the base damage will never compare to the amount of damage dealt when actually wielded.

Reason why I've always wanted to try this character out is because its concept is a far cry from epic's normal comparison of attack and defense numbers. Its alot more strategic.


----------



## Shayuri (May 6, 2011)

Wasn't there a weapon mod that let a weapon inflict Dimensional Anchor on a hit? I coulda sworn there was...


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (May 6, 2011)

I'm pretty sure there is, but I wouldn't take it. One of the funnest parts about this build is that it is one of the few tricks in epic to bypass freedom of movement. If you take teleporting out of the equation, weak speedbuilds would be at a considerable disadvantage since escape artist doesn't help. They could attack the chains but that would be wasting the majority of their turn and I could just tie them up again. If this tactic didn't have any weaknesses, it WOULD be an overpowered usage of fleshgrinding.


----------



## Shayuri (May 6, 2011)

They could try to Dispel the harpoon and suppress the anchor...or there are other ways to teleport through an anchor...

But I hear ya. It's all good.

I only brought it up because anythng with a divine rank can Greater Teleport at will. Since we're hunting gods and avatars, that means it'll come up a lot.


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (May 6, 2011)

Oh trust me, I know. Its not gonna be my only way too fight, just the main theme of the character. Besides, thats whats gonna make it interesting


----------



## Jemal (May 8, 2011)

One of my main problems with Fleshgrinding is the 'standard action to remove'.  It's kindof striking me as an all-or-nothing character.. If the opponent has a way out(teleport, etc), then your attack mode has no bearing on the combat, and if they don't it is crippling.
I suppose I chould just make sure there's always multiple opponents, but then when you DO get to a big single-boss fight, they will have to be immune to your attack mode in order to be a challenge..  

Hmm.. Will ponder alternative solutions at work


----------



## Fenris (May 8, 2011)

Ok Jemal, color me interested as well. I have always been drawn to non-casters anyway, and have never had the chance to play at Epic levels. So let me ponder things and browse and see what comes up. But count me in.


----------



## Shayuri (May 8, 2011)

It's not done yet...but here's a WIP for my shapeshifting-themed character.

I still haven't quite made up my mind between this and the Monk/Scout blend. I suspect the shapechanger has a better damage/AC potential...but maybe not by much. At epic level Skirmish is super-easy to do, and can do gobs of damage. That said...I've always had a soft spot in my withered, black heart for shapeshifting...so here he is.

Mechanically he's designed to have an option between standing and fighting with Flurries or natural attacks, or engaging in hit and run. Jemal might flinch that I gave him an 18 in Dex, since that score will change as he shifts forms...but it was necessary to qualify for epic Deflection feats without requiring dependence on Enhancement bonuses. Besides, the only two scores that are NECESSARY to bump on this are Wisdom and Constitution, so I had "extra" points to assign anyway. 

By bumping Ranger level up to 8, I managed to include Cloud Giants into his panoply of forms, which is probably gonna be his favorite. A Huge giant with 20 Monk levels makes the gods cry. The book doesn't even list Monk unarmed damage for Huge, but I estimate it at 6d8. Strength mods are +24 for racial, then the +18 for class, inherent and enhancements, for a grand total of Str of 52. So... +53 to hit, 6d8+26 damage. With a flurry of blows, that ain't bad.

Admittedly, not GREAT either, but I'm just working from the SRD for forms here.

His stunning blow is oddly high DC too. I was thinking very seriously of pumping it to 50ish with feats and seeing if it's a viable tactic at epic levels.

[sblock=Shapeshifter]Name: ?
Human Monk 20 / Ranger (Wildshape variant) 8 / Master of Many Forms 10 / Warshaper 2
Height:	?	Weight: ?
Hair: ?	Eyes: ?	Age: ?

Description:  

Str 28 +4 class +4 inherent +10 enh
Dex 35 +2 level +5 inherent +10 enh
Con 34 +1 level +5 inherent +4 class +6 enh
Int 12
Wis 40 +7 level +5 inherent +10 enh
Cha 14

AC: 62 (10 + 15wis + 12 dex + 5 mon +10 nat +10 def), Touch 48, FF 50
Fort: +31
Ref: +31
Will: +30
Hit Points: 8+39d8 +480
Move: 90'
Init: +16

Base Attack: +27/+22/+17

Feats:
-------
1 Alertness
1 Dodge
B Tracking
B Stunning Fist (DC45,25/day)
B Deflect Arrows
3 Combat Reflexes
B Endurance
6 Improved Initiative
B Improved Trip
9 Mobility
12 Spring Attack
15 Flyby Attack
18 Weapon Finesse

21 Exceptional Deflection
24 Infinite Deflection
27 Fast Healing
30 Improved Ki Strike
33 Spellcasting Harrier
36 Magical Beast Wild Shape
39 Dragon Wild Shape

Race Traits: Human
---------------
Extra Feat
Extra Skill Point
Etc

Class Traits:
-----------------
Ranger
Favored Enemies
- Evil Outsiders +4
- Good Outsiders +2
Track
Wild Empathy 
Endurance
Animal Companion (Druid Level 4)
Wild Shape 3/day (Small or Medium only)
Woodland Stride
Swift Tracker

Monk
Bonus Feats
- Stunning Fist
- Deflect Arrows
- Improved Disarm
Flurry of Blows
Unarmed strike
Improved Evasion
Still Mind (+2 Will vs enchantments)
Ki Strike (Magic, Lawful, Adamantine, Epic)
Slow Fall any distance
Purity of Body (immune to disease)
Wholeness of Body (heal by class level dmg 1/day)
Diamond Body (Immune to poison)
Abundant Step (dimension door 1/day)
Diamond Soul (SR30)
Quivering Palm (Death strike)
Timeless Body (stops aging)
Tongue of Sun and Moon (communicate verbally in any language)
Empty Body (Ethereal 1rnd/lvl)
Perfect Self (Outsider type, DR 10/magic)

Master of Many Forms
Improved Wildshape 13/day (gargantuan through dimunitive, up to 18HD)
- Humanoid, Monstrous Humanoid, Giant, fey, vermin, abberation, plant, ooze, elemental, dragon
Shifters Speech
Fast Wildshape
Extraordinary Wildshape
Evershifting Form

Warshaper
Morphic Immunities (Stuns, crits)
Morphic Weapons (+1 size level natural weapons)
Morphic Body (+4 str, +4 Con)

Skills 88r+120m+60mmf+8ws
Balance 10r
Disguise 20r
Climb 15r
Concentration 10r
Handle Animal 5r
Hide 27r
Jump 15r
Knowledge: Arcana 
Knowledge: Dungeoneering 1r
Knowledge: Geography 1r
Knowledge: Nature 24r
Listen 27r
Move Silently 27r
Sense Motive 20r
Spot 27r
Survival 14r
Swim 13r
Tumble 20

Languages: Common, Giant

Equipment
Cash: 489,500

Unity of Threes: Amulet of Mind, Body, and Spirit - 3.779
- +10 Natural Armor, 2mil
- +10 Epic Wisdom, 1.5mil
- +5 Mighty Fists, .225
- +6 Constitution, 54k

Straps of Strength and Speed, 2.5mil
- +10 Strength, 1mil
- +10 Dexterity, 1.5mil

Uber-Ring, 5.26
- Universal Energy Immunity, 2.16
- Epic Protection +10, 2.5
- Ironskin, .6
- Spell Turning, .147420

Vest of Epic Resistance +10, 1mil

Bracers of Armor +8, 64k
Boots of Teleportation, 49k
Third Eye of Concealment, 120k
Tomes, 
- +4 Strength, 110,000
- +5 Dexterity, 137,500
- +5 Wisdom, 137,500
- +5 Constitution, 137,500[/sblock]


----------



## Jemal (May 8, 2011)

Fenris, welcome aboard.  Anybody else out there lurking just wanna drop a line so's I know there's people interested?

Shayuri - Just off work and massive headache, too much to look over character now.  I do agree with you on the 6d8 huge monk damage though.


----------



## Nephtys (May 8, 2011)

I am interested, and thinking of trying a similar concept to my character in DSs game. Not a Marilith, of course, but a charging multiweapon using critical hitter. It would save me some effort, since I've already done a lot of research for that type of character. Though they would probably play quite differently, with the devil in the details.


----------



## Rathan (May 9, 2011)

I'd like to throw my hat in the ring here for this game as well I just am going to have the same issue making this character as I did in the last epic game I tried to make one in. I just don't have enough experience piece-mailing classes together to make a good, and more importantly, functional character and class build. 

Is anyone up for the challenge of helping me with this possibly?


----------



## Shayuri (May 9, 2011)

I'm no character-optimization genius, but I'm reasonably good at creating concepts with class and race combinations.

What are you interested in playing?


----------



## Rathan (May 9, 2011)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> I'm no character-optimization genius, but I'm reasonably good at creating concepts with class and race combinations.
> 
> What are you interested in playing?




I would love to play a sharpshooter, a ranged character that is godly-like in his skill with a bow. Could be ranger-ish... could be fighter-ish... could be anything else in between.. and whatever PRC's that will up my range and damage with a bow would be great....

EDIT: The other concept I've always wanted to play is a ghost.... problem is with a ghost you can only have so many items.. and the ability to hurt corporeal creatures and such can be tricky... but if you can make it work I'd love to play a ghost...


----------



## Fenris (May 9, 2011)

Wow. After seeing Shayuri's character I can honestly say I am a little daunted at this task. I will give this a shot and maybe you all can correct any glaring mistakes or omissions.


----------



## Jemal (May 10, 2011)

Fenris -Don't worry about it, if you want help making your character better people will help, and even if you don't, I've always been fairly good at making balanced encounters that allow everyone to participate.

Allright, so far we have interest from Shayuri, Dharuhk, Rathan, Fenris, and Nephtys.  Looks like we're starting to pick up speed.  

I'd like you guys to keep us posted on how your characters are Developing, rather than just waiting to post a final version.  I'd like to see how they're coming along as we prepare.


----------



## Fenris (May 10, 2011)

Jemal said:


> Fenris -Don't worry about it, if you want help making your character better people will help, and even if you don't, I've always been fairly good at making balanced encounters that allow everyone to participate.
> 
> Allright, so far we have interest from Shayuri, Dharuhk, Rathan, Fenris, and Nephtys.  Looks like we're starting to pick up speed.
> 
> I'd like you guys to keep us posted on how your characters are Developing, rather than just waiting to post a final version.  I'd like to see how they're coming along as we prepare.




Ok, thanks Jemal. After a brief look-see into a character, I have a possible idea. Will we be traveling onto various planes? Taking the fight to the gods so to speak? Because I thought a Sand Giant barbarian 28/ Horizon Walker 8 would be a pretty cool idea. In any case I will most likely be headed down the path of the big bruiser.


----------



## Nephtys (May 10, 2011)

I think we'll be seeing a lot of big bruisers 

My basic idea is a Feral (Savage Species), Half Dragon (black) (template class (SS), Wartroll (MM3), something, something Frenzied Berserker.
I'm considering squeezing in the epic Paragon Creature (SRD) template, but that might be overkill. Where would you put the LA on that? The CR is base creature + 15.


----------



## Jemal (May 10, 2011)

> Ok, thanks Jemal. After a brief look-see into a character, I have a possible idea. Will we be traveling onto various planes? Taking the fight to the gods so to speak? Because I thought a Sand Giant barbarian 28/ Horizon Walker 8 would be a pretty cool idea. In any case I will most likely be headed down the path of the big bruiser.



Well, that's entirely up to you guys, depends on whether you try damage control on the Material, hunting down avatars, trying to make deals, or going to their home planes and attempting to kick in the dieities door while he's in the tub.



> I think we'll be seeing a lot of big bruisers



Well, I'm hoping we'll get some finesseful characters, I've always found fighting with style to be very entertaining, especially at epic.



> My basic idea is a Feral (Savage Species), Half Dragon (black) (template class (SS), Wartroll (MM3), something, something Frenzied Berserker.
> I'm considering squeezing in the epic Paragon Creature (SRD) template, but that might be overkill. Where would you put the LA on that? The CR is base creature + 15.



First question, what's "template class (SS)"?

And on that note...
Dissallowed Templates: Psuedonatural, Feral, Lolth-touched, Insectile
Dissallowed Races: Anything with a Good/Evil alignment subtype
More to be added, this will be moved to the first post and updated as things come up.

As far as War Troll, you can take it on the following condition: You will not have the Dazing Blow ability.  I'm not looking forward to "Save vs X with every swing".


ALL: RE Templates/Level Adjustment.  We'll be working Epicness off of HD, so your BAB and Saves will continue to go up until you have 20 HD, after which they will begin progressing as Epic.  This also affects Epic Feat progression in that you do not qualify for Epic Feats until you have 21+HD.

[sblock=Paragon Template]LA+16, with the following Changes:
The Speed Tripling is considered an Enhancement bonus like Haste/ Boots of swiftness, and does not stack with other enhancements.
SR = HD+26, not CR+25. This means that if it's your only Template, your SR will be 50, the equivalent of ECL+10.
DR 15/Epic

Also keep in mind that some of the Paragon's abilities state they replace(do not stack with) the existing creature's ability (Natural armour bonus, Fast Healing, Resistance/DR/SR).
Also, the creature's +10 Skill bonus is a Competence bonus, which is the same kind that most magical items give, and does not stack.[/sblock]


----------



## Nephtys (May 10, 2011)

Jemal said:


> Well, I'm hoping we'll get some finesseful characters, I've always found fighting with style to be very entertaining, especially at epic.
> 
> 
> First question, what's "template class (SS)"?
> ...




Ok.

I think that would make my characters SR 44 (40-6-16+26), since it has such a high LA. That makes the SR useful only against lower level casters. But since the only spellcasters in the game are the gods themselves and their most powerful servants maybe SR will never really be a factor since the gods would likely beat SR 65 too.
The redundancies are really not too bad, but it all leaves me with something to consider. What am I giving up and how does it compare? Pretty well, I think. 

Oh, and thanks for the improvement in DR  

The template class from Savage Species gives the benefits of a template (like Half Dragon) gradually trough 3 levels. Since the Feral template can only be applied to a humanoid or monstrous humanoid I needed a way to apply the Half Dragon template afterwards. Normally the inherited HD template would be applied first and bestow the Dragon type on the character, barring it from taking Feral. 

Oh, and since my way to Pounce is barred with the Feral template will you allow me to take Pounce as an alternative Barbarian class feature with the Lion Totem (from Complete Champion)?


----------



## Fenris (May 10, 2011)

Jemal said:


> Well, that's entirely up to you guys, depends on whether you try damage control on the Material, hunting down avatars, trying to make deals, or going to their home planes and attempting to kick in the dieities door while he's in the tub.




Natch.



			
				Jemal said:
			
		

> ALL: RE Templates/Level Adjustment.  We'll be working Epicness off of HD, so your BAB and Saves will continue to go up until you have 20 HD, after which they will begin progressing as Epic.  This also affects Epic Feat progression in that you do not qualify for Epic Feats until you have 21+HD.




Hrmmm. Considering I have no clue what any of that means, I guess I will go with a human. 



			
				Jemal said:
			
		

> Well, I'm hoping we'll get some finesseful characters, I've always found fighting with style to be very entertaining, especially at epic.



This was my other concept I was considering. I may toss around a few combinations here to see what can come of it.


----------



## Rathan (May 11, 2011)

Ok... so if Jemal is ok with it.. I'd like to try a ghost character... however I need A LOT of help in regards to good class combinations as well and feats and items that will really help give the character the 'umph' it needs to compete with everyone else. 

I'm opening this up to everyone that's willing to help me and toss me some ideas... anyone got any good ideas???!


----------



## Fenris (May 11, 2011)

Ok for a finesse character i was thinking something like a dual knife wielder. say a human rogue 20/fighter 4/ Swashbuckler 3/ Invisible Blade 5/Master Thrower 5/ Perfect Wight 3.

Now that is a thumbnail and I like everyone else will need help tweaking it and making it work, but i think that would be fun to play.


----------



## Shayuri (May 11, 2011)

Rogue 20? Really?

Well, I may be wrong, but the core rogue always seemed lackluster to me.  You might try Scout or Ninja instead...similar niche classes, but more 'goodies.'

A dip into Shadowdancer gives Darkvision and HIPS too.


----------



## BBs (May 11, 2011)

Hey I'd like to join, maybe a monk type, still trying to figure out.


----------



## Shayuri (May 11, 2011)

Just so ya know, my shapeshifter has 20 levels of monk too.

Though perhaps I should re-examine that.

Augh, but those 20 levels in Cloud Giant form are so niiiiiiice...


----------



## Jemal (May 12, 2011)

Rathan -  if you're Referring to Ghost as in the "undead apparition", then I'm going to have to say no, I've had real problems DMing for them in the past every time I've allowed them.  I dislike Incorporeal PC's.


Shayuri/Fenris - twenty levels in a base class at Epic just seems rather boggling to me.. If you're going to invest that much into the class, why not take it Epic? (Mechanically for the bonus feats, Thematically for the feeling of "I'm a <insert class here>!")
As far as the particulars..

Rogue - If you're going for a sneak attack character and you like a lot of the Rogue special abilities (Imp. Evasion, Crippling Strike, Defensive Roll, etc) then lots of levels in rogue are definitely worth it.  Especially if you're taking the Epic feats that have them as Requirements (Epic Dodge, Lingering Damage, Self Concealment, Sneak Attack of Opportunity).  But even then, if you're not taking it to Epic there's no reason to take it past 19(When you get your last bonus from the class) other than Thematic.
Personally, I'd take 19 levels (10d6 sneak, 4 special abilities) or go epic with it.

Monk - The only real reason to go heavy Monk is thematic.  Sure they get minor damage/ac/speed bonuses, but not enough to justify the levels.  Their higher level abilities are interesting, but again I view most of them as more thematic than mechanically useful (Timeless body, Perfect Self, Tongues).
Diamond Soul and Quivering Palm are only useful if you're going full monk.
Personally, I'd take Monk to 11 for Greater Flurry, or all the way for full monk.


Nephtys - 


> The template class from Savage Species gives the benefits of a template (like Half Dragon) gradually trough 3 levels. Since the Feral template can only be applied to a humanoid or monstrous humanoid I needed a way to apply the Half Dragon template afterwards. Normally the inherited HD template would be applied first and bestow the Dragon type on the character, barring it from taking Feral.



Actually, feral and half dragon are BOTH inherited, meaning you get to apply them in whichever order makes sense (You apply all Inherited Templates first, in ascending order).  You can't apply feral to half dragon, but you can apply half-dragon to feral, so it works.  Base human, add feral to become monstrous humanoid, Add half dragon to become Dragon type.
Except that feral's not allowed.  Just thought you should know about the proper template stacking rules for the future.



> Oh, and since my way to Pounce is barred with the Feral template will you allow me to take Pounce as an alternative Barbarian class feature with the Lion Totem (from Complete Champion)?



Well considering pounce is one of the reasons I dislike Feral, I'm going to say no to that.  I'll fix Dire Charge so instead of just being during the 'first round of combat', it's 'once per combat', but I'd rather not see uber-charging every turn.
Are you still worried about what was bothering you in Dharuhks game?  Opponents running away from you all the time?  Cuz it's not something I see happen alot, and I've played/DM'd a pretty hefty amount of Epic.


----------



## Rathan (May 12, 2011)

Whelp... I guess it's back to my ranged combat monkey idea... LOL

Anyone got any good suggestions on race/class combos for a super-bow or thrown weapon type chara???

EDIT: I'd like to throw Paragon in my mix as well as I've never used it before... wonder if it would work well with a ranged type character?


----------



## Nephtys (May 12, 2011)

Jemal said:


> Nephtys -
> 
> Actually, feral and half dragon are BOTH inherited, meaning you get to apply them in whichever order makes sense (You apply all Inherited Templates first, in ascending order). You can't apply feral to half dragon, but you can apply half-dragon to feral, so it works. Base human, add feral to become monstrous humanoid, Add half dragon to become Dragon type.
> Except that feral's not allowed. Just thought you should know about the proper template stacking rules for the future.




Good to know. I had pictured Half Dragon as being completely genetic, while Feral was in part social (raised by wolves, or something like that). You don't grow scales because you had a bad childhood, but you might become pretty feral. -This is not a rules discussion, just a thought.



Jemal said:


> Well considering pounce is one of the reasons I dislike Feral, I'm going to say no to that. I'll fix Dire Charge so instead of just being during the 'first round of combat', it's 'once per combat', but I'd rather not see uber-charging every turn.
> Are you still worried about what was bothering you in Dharuhks game? Opponents running away from you all the time? Cuz it's not something I see happen alot, and I've played/DM'd a pretty hefty amount of Epic.




Heh, considering it's so powerful it's no wonder DMs seem to hate it. I can deal with that. It's less important for a two armed character than for one with six arms. And it makes sense to only make it available as an Epic feat, though I probably won't use it for this build cause I won't have the HDs for it. 40 ecls and most of it's LA, but it will be worth it.  
Oh, and enemies running away is not a problem. I expect them to. I want them to. Let them run, let them hide. I will find them and kill them and eat their hearts. 

Much of the LA probably lies in stat boosts, so I'm looking to make the most of my very nice ability scores. I won't be able to take a lot of class levels, but do you know any classes that would synergize well with these scores? 

Abilities 90 points
Str: 72/+31 (18+20(WT)+8(HD)+15(P)+5(Inh)+6(Enh))
Dex: 50/+20 (18+6 (WT)+0(HD)+15(P)+5(Inh)+6(Enh))
Con: 64/+27 (18+18(WT)+2(HD)+15(P)+5(Inh)+6(Enh))
Int: 36/+13 (10-2(WT)+2(HD)+15(P)+5(Inh)+6(Enh))
Wis: 46/+18 (16+4(WT)+0(HD)+15(P)+5(Inh)+6(Enh))
Cha: 38/+14 (10+0(WT)+2(HD)+15(P)+5(Inh)+6(Enh))

WT=War Troll
HD=Half Dragon
P=Paragon Creature


----------



## Shayuri (May 12, 2011)

Monk is actually great for shapeshifters, since that Wis bonus sticks to all the shapes...but you're right in that I don't need 20 levels for that. I also like the Epic feats that bounce ranged attacks and ranged touches...but again, don't need 20 for that.

In fact, I've been revising my build heavily today. I'm packing in more Ranger, less Monk. Why?

Cuz I started looking at critters who have more than 18 HD...and I want some of that action. 

Stay tuned for a whole new build.

Jemal, what specifically about the Druid are you changing in exchange for no spells? Surely not just BAB?

Oh! Also! Any thoughts on how I can get natural attacks to penetrate Epic DR without getting Ki Strike (Adamantine) first?


----------



## Rathan (May 12, 2011)

Where do you find the Paragon trait... what book?

EDIT: 







			
				Shayuri said:
			
		

> Oh! Also! Any thoughts on how I can get natural attacks to penetrate Epic DR without getting Ki Strike (Adamantine) first?





Penetrate Damage Reduction [Epic], can you choose (Epic) as one of the types and have it penetrate epic DR?


----------



## Nephtys (May 12, 2011)

Rathan said:


> Where do you find the Paragon trait... what book?




Epic Level Handbook (or SRD). The Monster section.


----------



## Rathan (May 12, 2011)

Disregard... just saw answer in one of Jemals Posts...


----------



## Jemal (May 12, 2011)

Shayuri said:


> Jemal, what specifically about the Druid are you changing in exchange for no spells? Surely not just BAB?
> 
> Oh! Also! Any thoughts on how I can get natural attacks to penetrate Epic DR without getting Ki Strike (Adamantine) first?




Funny you should ask those two questions together, What I'd been thinking for Druid was this: 
Upgrading BAB to full, HD to d10s, and giving bonuses while shapeshifted based on level (To account for loss of druidic spellcasting).

The druid gains one of the following whenever he/she would otherwise gain the ability to cast 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, or 9th level spells, (total of 5 abilities in place of 9th lvl casting)
Natural Strike(As Ki strike and stacks with it, plus may pick any alignment or Metal type each time this ability is chosen.),  Bonus feat (Wild Feat, Monstrous Feat, or other druid-centric feat)


Also, not everyone plays like this, so just to make it clear: Characters may take feats whose requirements they can meet through wildshaping, but they temporarily loose that feat when not in a form that meets the requirements.


Rathan - Do you want a full-attack character, a move-shoot-move character, or some other form of combat style?

Neph - Nice Stats.  Just For the record, what I'm getting for your level is: 
Paragon(16LA), Half-Dragon(3LA), War Troll(6LA, 12HD)=25LA, 12 racial HD, leaving room for 3 class levels.  
Hmm.. If you want to get the most out of those stats, I'd suggest class levels that allow you to add additional stats to things, such as Monk/Ninja for Wis to AC, Swashbuckler for int to dmg(Combos well with the High Strength if you take a Spiked Chain, but takes all 3 of your class levels to get) .. um.. Can't think of any others off the top of my head that you can get with just a couple lvls.. least not any that would be useful.
If you go that route, you may also want to look into Feats & Items which also capitalize on your high stats.


----------



## Jemal (May 12, 2011)

> Penetrate Damage Reduction [Epic], can you choose (Epic) as one of the types and have it penetrate epic DR?



Ordinarily no, b/c the new Penetrate DR is MATERIALS only, but I'm going to use a bit of a combination between the ELH Pen DR and the new version.
New version works as normal (Pick a material each time) but if you want to Pen Magic or Epic DR, you have to use the ELH version (Adds +2 to your effective weapon's magic rating to determine whether it pens DR).  If you have something like Ki Strike that allows you to beat DR/Magic allready, that counts as a +2 effective enhancement, so you would need Pen DR 2X to beat Epic DR. (Or a +4 weapon and the feat once)

Also, those using Natural Attacks, they overcome your own Natural DR (not provided by Items/magic/etc), so if you're a Paragon, your natural/unarmed attacks automatically overcome DR/Epic.  This does not extend to weapon attacks.
I've been told this isn't an actual rule (And In truth haven't been able to find it recently, so it may be a holdover from 3.0), but that's the way I roll, so there.


----------



## Rathan (May 12, 2011)

I was thinking a more mobile character than can hit things while in melee with something else might be prudent. I can see a lot of players going more 'in your face' than not, so I want 'in your face... from waaayyy the f*#k over here... then in your face from a little ways over here too!!' LOL


----------



## Jemal (May 12, 2011)

Rathan - What're you thinking? Spring attack? Scout?  
Ooh, if you have wings then fly-by attack could be amusing, coupled with some of the specialty Standard-action attack forms.


----------



## Rathan (May 12, 2011)

Ok.... so far I'm liking where that's going... 

Scout sounds good.. but I'm not overly familiar with it... *what book is it found in?*

Race suggestions on what would be best to give meh wings?... 

This is something I'd have to have you put together if you have time Jemal.. it's a bit over my head... once you have it assembled I have dissect it which will help me in the future heh


----------



## Jemal (May 12, 2011)

Wings can be gotten several ways.
Half celestial/Half Fiend would work, but you'd have to come up with a good story reason why you haven't chosen a side (Though I'd allow it for a Half b/c they have more freedom of choice than full demons/angels)
Half Dragon works if you're Large sized
Theres a Winged Template, but I can't remember what book its from.

Scout is a base class from Complete Adventurer.  It gains damage/AC bonuses when moving before attacking.

I think you mentioned wanting to be a ranged type before, are you thinking archer or thrower?
For Thrower I'd suggest Master Thrower and possibly Invisible Blade (Though I saw Fenris post a concept involving those)
For Archer I'd go with Order of the Bow, to capitalize on the Single-attack. (Or use Manyshot/Greater manyshot).


----------



## Rathan (May 12, 2011)

I'm thinking more bow as you are correct, someone earlier mentioned both the throwing classes before, and I'd rather not steal someones thunder. 

If you can swing a large half dragon (any metallic is fine) that's fine with me too... I'd take half celestial too... I think I'd prefer the half dragon though....


----------



## Nephtys (May 12, 2011)

Jemal said:


> Neph - Nice Stats. Just For the record, what I'm getting for your level is:
> Paragon(16LA), Half-Dragon(3LA), War Troll(6LA, 12HD)=25LA, 12 racial HD, leaving room for 3 class levels.
> Hmm.. If you want to get the most out of those stats, I'd suggest class levels that allow you to add additional stats to things, such as Monk/Ninja for Wis to AC, Swashbuckler for int to dmg(Combos well with the High Strength if you take a Spiked Chain, but takes all 3 of your class levels to get) .. um.. Can't think of any others off the top of my head that you can get with just a couple lvls.. least not any that would be useful.
> If you go that route, you may also want to look into Feats & Items which also capitalize on your high stats.




That's it. I'm thinking Fighter 1 (for the bonus feat and because I can't think of something better), Monk 1 (for the AC from Wis) and Fist of the Forest 1 (AC from Con) (Complete Champion p80). That would make my AC very high. Perhaps redundantly high, since I already have a good AC and can absorb a fair bit of damage with regeneration and fast healing. There's nothing I've found in the ELH that could even hit an AC of 124 (which I can get without epic items) without rolling a 20. Touch AC is another matter, and both classes get me that. Marshal would have been good, but I don't want to make this character too similar to the other one. Swashbuckler might be a good alternative.

Can ordinary clothing carry armour enchantments btw? Robes of the Archmagi seem to suggest that, but I thought I should ask.


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (May 12, 2011)

Sorry I haven't posted in a while, I've been sick. So I haven't got a final answer on my fleshgrinding question yet. Or maybe I did and just missed it. Any thoughts on it I should know about?


----------



## Jemal (May 12, 2011)

Dharuhk - 
Allright, I'll allow it for now, though I'm going to want to see exactly what you're doing with it.  That ability just makes me wary..

Neph - 
No, clothing cannot carry armour enhancements.  the Robes of the Archmagi are a specialty item with preset bonuses.  The downsie of not wearing armour is you have to give up on the armour enhancements(Fortification, resistance, etc), though you can still gain armour bonuses through spells, magic items(that Robe or Bracers of armour), etc.

Don't have complete Champion, what's Fist of the Forest? What kind of AC bonus is it?

Also keep in mind that I will be designing most of the fights, so I'm going to have to make sure some of them can hit you, and if your AC is that much higher than the rest of the party, that means those fighters won't be able to MISS anybody else.


----------



## Nephtys (May 13, 2011)

Jemal said:


> Neph -
> Don't have complete Champion, what's Fist of the Forest? What kind of AC bonus is it?
> 
> Also keep in mind that I will be designing most of the fights, so I'm going to have to make sure some of them can hit you, and if your AC is that much higher than the rest of the party, that means those fighters won't be able to MISS anybody else.






			
				Complete Champion pg 80 and 81 said:
			
		

> Fist of the Forest
> REQUIREMENTS
> Base Attack Bonus: +4.
> Skills: Handle Animal 4ranks, Survival 4 ranks.
> ...




It's a constitution bonus to AC that stacks with everything, except other constitution bonuses to AC. You see above that it stacks with the monk's wisdom and dexterity bonuses.​ 
The RP requirements fit well enough with my character, who's something of an unorthodox guardian of nature. The GoG organisation would likely bend over backwards to be affiliated with such a magnificent example of nature, and if not he could easily have bent a few himself until they shared their teachings with him. The class doesn't require membership in the organisation, merely their teaching. Or maybe, being a Paragon and all, he came up with the teachings himself. 
And the Primal living condition merely forbids him from paying for food ot sleeping indoors. He's still allowed to wear clothing, fortunately, though it would be very cool if WotC published a nudist prestige class. A big screw you to the dnd-hating extremists.*  Anyway, this is not that, but still pretty cool.​ 
But, keeping in mind what you wrote above about balancing encounters, perhaps it's overkill and counterproductive. I don't want my strengths to become a weakness for my companions. Maybe it's better to focus on dealing more damage than keeping an overly defensive mindset.​ 
*Disclaimer, I'm not a nudist, just a little drunk right now.​


----------



## Rathan (May 13, 2011)

after shamelessly dl'ing a pdf of complete Adventurer Jemal and looking over scout I really can wrap my head around that... most if not all of the scouts abilities are what I'm looking for. The blindsight at the end of the progression will fit will with a large half dragon and most full dragons have blindsight as well.

The movement thing is nice and would allow me alot of the move and shoot type feats I need with the scouts bns feats.. leaving my feats from leveling for more of the flying maneuver variety. Then the epic feats to finish it off with something bow-like epic coolness I'm sure. 

Would you be taking me full scout 20 do you think? and if so what to do with the other 4 levels? Fighter for weapon spec maybe?


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (May 13, 2011)

I'll be posting a lot more on the character tommorow, but I will give you what I've got now as a preview. Pretty much explains where I'm going with it.

6 Horizon Walker, 1 Ranger, 1 Monk, 2 Fighter, 24 Scout, 5 Invisible Blade, 1 Master Thrower

Feats (18+8 Epic): Swift Hunter, Improved Skirmish, Endurance, Quicken Spell-like Ability, Deft Strike, Combat Expertise, Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus, Persuasive, Expeditious Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Sun-School, Elusive Target, Power Attack, Favored Power Attack, Bane of Enemies, Epic Skill Focus x2 (Bluff, Listen), Penetrate Damage Reduction, Track, Quick Draw, Bounding Assault, Rapid Blitz, Keen-Eared Scout


----------



## Jemal (May 13, 2011)

Rathan - So if you want to be a large Half-dragon, there's not very many good options. Most of the large creatures are heavy-investment and build for melee.  
The only suggestion I have is Half-ogre(Savage Species), but not sure it fits.. Half-dragon half-ogre stats are: +14str,-2dex,+4 con.  Not exactly made for archery.  Can't really think of any other large creature that would be a good fit for an archer.  I'll think a little further, but if you're wanting wings, you may have to skip the half-dragon route and find a different way (Winged template works great for archers: +4 dex, +2 wis, Fly speed=Land+20, manueverability perfect, LA +2).

And how much Scout you take would likely be dependant on how much you spend on race/templates, and whether there's any other classes you'd like.

Thoughts?


----------



## Shayuri (May 13, 2011)

You know what's fun for archers?

Pixies! Just a +4 LA (no racial HD!) and you get massive stat bonuses, small size for better AC and attack bonus, and constant greater invisibility! Not to mention a good Fly speed with Good maneuverability.

Oh god, now I want to play a pixie.

No! Shapeshifter. Shape...shifter...


----------



## Jemal (May 13, 2011)

Pixies.. *Shudders with rememberance* Oh god the horror... please no... in fact, I think I might add them to the list of banned races.  Not cuz they're OP, just cuz they're... Pixies.


----------



## Rathan (May 13, 2011)

Hmmm... yea half or full ogre just doesn't fit with me or an archer build.... I guess I'm gonna have to take the winged template. With Paragon and Winged I'm gonna have 22 class levels to choose from which is not gonna leave me with many epic feats to choose from I don't think.

I do like the thought of Scout a lot and getting to blindsight with it would be cool but if you have a better way to set him up please toss it out there. I don't want to sell the build short if I don't have to!

EDIT: I just noticed the Paragon template is not going to give me the +20 luck bns to damage unless I'm using a melee or thrown weapon.... I know it's only one of the templates features but that's giving up a lot in the way of damage just to be ranged... perhaps ranged isn't the way to go, or maybe Paragon isn't the way to go?

EDIT2: Would you be opposed to giving me the +20 luck bns to damage on a ranged weapon? It is after all a luck bonus not something tied to str that requires might or str to hurl it I guess...

Suggestions Jemal?


----------



## Shayuri (May 14, 2011)

Nuthin to see here, just WIPing my new build.

By toning monk way down and replacing most of it with revised druid levels, I got Wildshape HD up to 35. This allows some absolutely fantastic shapes like juvenile force dragons, and ancient gold dragons...and much much more...

I haven't bought the Wilding Clasps yet, but I'm gonna. Just so you know I haven't forgotten.

[sblock=Shapechanger]Name: 
Human
Druid 17 / Monk 2 / Ranger (Wildshape) 5 / Master of Many Forms 10 / Warshaper 3 / Nature's Warrior 3

Description: 

Str 10/24 +4 inherent +10 enh
Dex 10/26 +1 level +5 inherent +10 enh
Con 18/30 +1 level +5 inherent +6 enh
Int 16
Wis 18/40 +7 level +5 inherent +10 enh
Cha 18/30 +1 level +5 inherent +6 enh

AC: 61 (10 + 15wis +8 dex +10 nat +8 armor +10 def), Touch 43, FF 53
Fort: +43 (+23 +10con +10res)
Ref: +36 (+18 +8dex +10res)
Will: +46
Hit Points: 10+16d10+23d8
Move: 30'
Init: +12

Base Attack: +30

Feats:
-------
1 Alertness
1 Improved Initiative
3 Combat Reflexes
6 Weapon Finesse
9 Weapon Focus: Bite
12 Weapon Focus: Claws
15 Flyby Attack
18 
B Tracking
B Endurance
B Improved Grappling
B Deflect Arrows

21 Exceptional Deflection
24 Infinite Deflection
27 Fast Healing
30 Improved Natural Strike (Epic)
33 Epic Prowess
36 Magical Beast Wild Shape
39 Dragon Wild Shape

Race Traits: Human
---------------
Extra Feat
Extra Skill Point
Etc

Class Traits:
-----------------
Druid
Animal Companion (Druid level 17)
Wild Empathy
Nature Sense
Woodland Stride
Trackless Step
Resist Nature's Lure
Wildshape 5/day
Venom Immunity
1000 Faces
Timeless Body
DRUID POWERS!
- Natural Strike (Silver)
- Natural Strike (Good)
- Natural Strike (Cold Iron)
- Natural Strike (Adamantine)
- Natural Strike (Evil)

Ranger
Favored Enemies
- Evil Outsiders +4
- Good Outsiders +2
Track
Wild Empathy 
Endurance
Animal Companion (Druid Level 2)
Wild Shape 1/day (Small or Medium only)

Monk
Bonus Feats
- Improved Grapple
- Deflect Arrows
Flurry of Blows
Unarmed strike (1d6)
Evasion

Master of Many Forms
Improved Wildshape 16/day (gargantuan through dimunitive, up to 35HD)
- Humanoid, Monstrous Humanoid, Giant, fey, vermin, abberation, plant, ooze, elemental, dragon
Shifters Speech
Fast Wildshape
Extraordinary Wildshape
Evershifting Form (shapechanger subtype, immune to transmutations)

Warshaper
Morphic Immunities (Stuns, crits)
Morphic Weapons (+1 size level natural weapons)
Morphic Body (+4 str, +4 Con)
Morphic Reach +5'`

Nature's Warrior
- Claws of the Grizzly (+3 dmg w/natural weapons), Wilding
- caster level increase
- Skin of the Alligator (+3 natural armor in wildshape)

Skills 160d+50r+16m+80mmf+18w+?ng


Languages: Common, Giant, Draconic, Sylvan, Druidic

Equipment
Cash: 489,500-27.5k-120k

Unity of Threes: Amulet of Mind, Body, and Spirit - 4.019
- +10 Natural Armor, 2mil
- +10 Epic Wisdom, 1.5mil
- +5 Mighty Fists, .225
- +6 Constitution, 54k
- Concealment (as 3rd Eye of Conceal), .24

Straps of Strength and Speed (belt), 2.5mil
- +10 Strength, 1mil
- +10 Dexterity, 1.5mil

Uber-Ring, 5.26
- Universal Energy Immunity, 2.16
- Epic Protection +10, 2.5
- Ironskin, .6
- Spell Turning, .147420

Vest of Epic Resistance +10, 1mil

Bracers of Armor +8, 64k
Boots of Teleportation, 49k

Tomes, 
- +5 Strength, 137,500
- +5 Dexterity, 137,500
- +5 Wisdom, 137,500
- +5 Constitution, 137,500
---------------------
Preferred Shapes
---------------------
Juvenile Force Dragon (gargantuan)
60' move, Fly 300 
+36 Str, 0 Dex, +22 Con
+37 natural AC, -4 size AC, SR33, DR15/magic
Breath Weapon: 20d12 Force DC 48 in 60' cone, Fright DC37
Reach 20', Bite: 4d8+30, 2 Claws 4d6+17, 2 Wings 2d8+17, Tail 4d6+30, Crush 4d8+30, Sweep 2d8+17
Immune to Sleep, Paralysis and Force, Deflecting Force (+10), Blur (20% miss)
Blindsense 60', darkvision, low light vision

Tayella
Magical Beast (gargantuan)
100' move
+26 Str, +38 Dex, +28 Con
+15 insight AC, +7 natural AC, -4 size AC, SR34, DR10/epic
Reach 20', 2 Claws 4d6+21, 3 Bites 2d8+12, Sting 3d8+12+poison (DC49, 2d10Con)
Pounce, Improved Grab, Rake 4d8+21[/sblock]


----------



## Rathan (May 14, 2011)

What type of bonus does the Winged template give me Jemal? would it stack with the inherent bonus of the tomes and manuals or replace them?

EDIT: Also... besides Paladin, does anyone know of a class that adds an ability mod to saves?

EDIT2: Does the Paragons Max HP on all HD supersede your current HP generation Jemal?


----------



## rangerjohn (May 14, 2011)

Jemal, how do plan to handle healing without spellcasting?  Will all the characters need fast healing?


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (May 15, 2011)

Out of curiosity, since you brought it up in my epic thread, do you allow use of oriental adventures and all of its side books (rokugan ect)?


----------



## Jemal (May 15, 2011)

Dharuhk - Yes, on a case-by-case basis.

Rangerjohn - That is probably a good idea, yes.

Rathan - HP will be maxed for all anyways (Didn't I say that earlier? Hmm, will have to edit main post if not).  
And I'm afraid no to the Luck bonus to arrow damage, far as I see, it specifically leaves non-thrown weapons out.  Arrows aren't supposed to do tons of damage b/c they make up for it with range.
[sblock=Winged]+4 dex, +2 Wis, Feathered wings: Fly speed = base +20, Manueverability=Perfect(If dex is 17+).
Type changes to Monstrous humanoid.
LA+2[/sblock]

Shayuri - Thank you for including some of your favoured forms, I was going to ask for that.  What book is "Tayella" from?


Repeat info for all: HP will be all maxed.


----------



## Rathan (May 15, 2011)

EDIT: Ok.... I guess I'm not going to get out this what I'm looking for with ranged... so I think I'm going to work on melee flier that will use fly by attack in the air and spring attack on the ground as a backup... 

I think to use the full LA of Paragon I think melee is the way to go, but combined with flight I think will be enough of a difference not to be cookie-cutter and still be very effective.

I am working on building the character myself, however I don't have access to all the books or the knowledge I need for what feats really to take to maximize my build... if you could help me with that once I post what I do have for a build so far you'd be able to help me with that right Jemal?

[sblock=What I Got So Far]Name: Pithramir the "Valkyrie" 
Race:  Paragon [+16 LA] Winged [+2 LA] Human
Class: Scout 20/Monk 1/??? 1
Alignment: NG
ECL: 40
Gender: Male
Height/Weight: 6'1"/210 lbs.
Hair/Eyes: Bright Blue/Silver

Str:    55    +22    (18 Pts, +15 Paragon, +5 Inherent, +5 Level, +12 Enhancement)
Dex:    42    +16    (18 Pts, +15 Paragon, +5 Inherent, +4 Template
Con:    50    +20    (18 Pts, +15 Paragon, +5 Inherent, +12 Enhancement)
Int:    25    +7    (10 Pts, +15 Paragon, 
Wis:    44    +17    (16 Pts. +15 Paragon, +5 Inherent, +2 Template, +6 Enhancement)
Cha:    35    +12    (10 Pts, +15 Paragon, +5 Inherent
Points Unspent: 0

BAB:    +16/+11/+6 [+15/+10/+5 Base, +1 Epic Progressing]
HP:    160[Scout]+8[Monk]+???+440[Con Mod]+264[Paragon]
AC:    82 (10 Base, +16 Dex, +17 Wis, +12 Insight, +12 Luck, +5 Natural, +10 Deflection)
Init:    +19 (+16 Dex, +3 Scout)
Speed:    30(50 Fly, Perfect) [90(150 Fly, Perfect)]

Saves:
Fort: +49 (6 Base, +20 Con, +10 Paragon, +3 Scout, +10 Enhancement)
Refl: +48    (12 Base, +16 Dex, +10 Paragon, +10 Enhancement)
Will: +43    (6 Base, +17 Wis, +10 Paragon, +10 Enhancement)

Attacks:
+7 Keen Impaling Adamantine Ghost Strike Longspear +73 (+16 BAB, +22 Str, +25 Paragon, +7 Weapon, +1 WF, +2 MWM] to hit / 1d8+33[1.5xStr]+7[Weapon]+1[WM]+2[MWM]+20[Paragon] (+7d6 dmg w/ Skirmish) dmg 19-20/X3 Crit


Racial/Special Abilities:
Paragon:
*A paragon creature always has maximum hit points. Paragon creatures also gain an additional 12 hit points per HD.
*A paragon creature’s speed triples, for all movement types.
*Paragon creatures gain a +12 insight bonus to AC and a +12 luck bonus to AC. They also gain a +5 natural armor bonus
*A paragon creature makes all its attacks with a +25 luck bonus on the attack roll. 
*A paragon creature gains a +20 luck bonus on damage rolls for all melee and thrown ranged attacks. 
*A paragon creature’s special attacks, if any, all gain a +13 insight bonus, if applicable. The +13 insight bonus may only be applied to a given special ability once.
*Fire and cold resistance 10.
*Damage reduction 15/epic.
*Spell resistance equal to the paragon creature’s HD+26 [48]. 
*Fast healing 20.
*A paragon creature’s natural weapons are treated as epic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
*The paragon creature gains a +10 insight bonus on all its saving throws.
*All ability scores are 15 points higher than those of the base creature. 
*The paragon creature gains a +10 competence bonus on all its skill checks. 
* Feats: Same as the base creature, plus one bonus feat. 
Winged:
* +4 Dex, +2 Wis, Land Speed +20 ft, Perfect Manuv.
Scout:
*Skirmish (+5d6, +5 AC)
*Blindsight 30 ft.
*Battle Fort. +3 (+3 Fort Checks, +3 Init)
*Freedom of Movement
*Hide in Plain Sight
*Camouflage
*Flawless stride
*Fast Movement
*Uncanny Dodge
*Trapfinding
Monk:
*Ac Bonus (Wis to AC when wearing light or no armor)
*Flurry of Blows
*Unarmed Strike

Skills: 1st (8+7)x4 2nd-20th (8+7)x19, 21st (4+7), 22nd (???)

Feats: 
Human: Dodge [+1 Dodge Bns to AC Against Selected Foes]
Monk 1st: Stunning Fist
1st:  Mobility [+4 dodge bns to AC against AoO when you move out of threatened area]
3rd: Weapon Focus (Spear) [+1 Attk w/ Spears]
Scout 4th: Short Haft
6th: Wingover [Can make dramtic change of direction in a move, you loose 10 feet of movement for every change of direction]
Scout 8th: Spring Attack [Move-Attk-Move]
9th: 
12th: Weapon Spec. (Spear) [+2 Dmg w/ Spears]
Scout 12th: Melee Weapon Mastery (Piercing) [+2 Attk, +2 Dmg w/ Piercing]
15th: Improved Skirmish [+2d6 dmg, +2 AC if moved more than 20 feet from start]
Scout 16th: Bounding Assault [Pick two foes, No AoO's, Make two attks (second at -5) with Spring Attack]
18th: 
Scout 20th:
21st[Epic]:
Paragon Bonus: 


Equipment:

Magical Items: 1,037,695 gold left
Tomes/Manuals:
*Str +5 137,500 gp
*Dex +5 137,500 gp
*Con +5 137,500 gp
*Wis +5 137,500 gp
*Cha +5 137,500 gp
+7 Keen [+1] Impaling [+1] Adamantine Ghost Strike [+1] Longspear 2,000,305 gp
Wraps (Cloak) of Epic Resistance +10 1,000,000 gp
Ring of Epic Protection +10 and Universal Energy Immunity 5,160,000 gp
Torc (Periapt) of Wis +6 36,000 gp
Belt of Epic Strength and Con +12 3,600,000 gp
Winged Helm (Helm) of Teleportation and Comp. Langs and Read Magic 81,300 gp[/sblock]


----------



## Rathan (May 15, 2011)

Hey Shayuri, did you make those items under your shapshifter, or did you find them somewhere already pre-made?


----------



## Shayuri (May 15, 2011)

Jemal, a Tayella is one of the Epic monsters from the SRD. There aren't many that I can hit with 35HD, but it's still not bad... I assume it's also in the Epic Level Handbook, since most of the SRD material was adapted from that.

Rathan, some of the magic items worn by my character are combinations of items that are pre-existing. For example, the "Unity of Three" amulet is really just an amulet combining several functions, with the surcharges for stacking slots incorporated into the price. I then just stuck a fancy name onto it, and called it an epic item. 

So yes, I created some items in the sense that I chose which items to crunch together into them. But I didn't just make up effects wholesale. I always started with pre-existing magic items, and lumped them together.

Also, Rathan, your Charisma seems off...you bought a base score of 10, then included Paragon Bonus of 15 and Inherent Bonus of 5. That adds up to 30, not 35.


----------



## Rathan (May 16, 2011)

Thanks Shay... I wasn't complaining I just wanted to know as I was going to use it as a base to make my own.... what I need to know is how you got all this abilities on the uber-ring and costing so little. How much would a ring of Universal Elemental Immunity and Epic Protection +10 by themselves be?


----------



## Shayuri (May 16, 2011)

Well, first off, the original Uber-Ring was priced incorrectly. On my third pass I caught the arithmatic error.

A Ring of Universal Energy Immunity combined with Protection +10 would cost 5.16 million.

2.16 million for the energy immunity, and 3 million for the Protection...which is really 2 million for the base cost, and then another 1 million for the 50% stacking fee.

Nice item, but it uses up over a third of our gp total singlehandedly. It's far from inexpensive.

My new build is more economical, though it uses both ring slots...


----------



## Rathan (May 16, 2011)

That's what I got as well Shay... thanks.. I did do it right LOL. 

Also Shay.. if you would take a look at my build so far and tell me what you think please? I value your opinion as well as Jemals and a third set of eyes never hurts. Do you have any suggestions for feats... or magic items with my remaining monies indicated on my sheet that would be good for this build?


----------



## Shayuri (May 16, 2011)

Er...looking at the two, your guy would probably beat my guy after a looooooooooooong, protracted fight of attrition. And that's with 1mil left for you to spend. 

The Paragon template is pretty nuts. I'd jump at it myself, but my build requires that I try to maximize the number of hit dice I have for wildshape...and paragon LA would cripple it.

Anyway, I can pump my AC to a level where you'd have trouble hitting. Your AC is already pretty much out of my reach, so I'd have to try to tag you with breath weapon attacks or other area blasts. And you'd almost always make your saves against them.

In the end, you'd win because your fast healing is way faster than mine.

Though I wouldn't die. I'd just be forced to retreat.

After you spend your last mil, you'll be pretty much unquestionably superior to me in raw combat. My advantage will be in noncombat versatility. I'll be able to assume forms that have special abilities that are uniquely applicable to a situation.


----------



## Rathan (May 16, 2011)

wow... coming from someone at least semi adept at making epic level characters I'm flattered. Problem is I dunno if I've made him a bit TOO uber and made it harder for the rest of the group heh. 

I was hoping you might have some good feat combs and item suggestions for me with what I have left to spend and what slots I have left for feats.


----------



## Shayuri (May 16, 2011)

Since you're based on mobility attacks...spring attack and flyby attack, I'd find feats that either boost your one-hit damage, or that add attacks to Spring Attack.

There are several.

Improved Skirmish from Complete Scoundrel gives you +2d6 damage and +2 AC if you move 20' and make an attack. With your speed, that's no real obstacle so it's basically free damage and AC.

Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz from PHB2 give you additional attacks when you use Spring Attack...but I think your BAB will prevent you from taking Rapid Blitz.

Still, 2 attacks instead of 1 ain't bad.


----------



## Rathan (May 16, 2011)

Would the bounding assault work with my fly by attack, or just spring attack while I'm on the ground?

EDIT: I added some of the feats you suggested... let me know what you think!


----------



## Shayuri (May 16, 2011)

Just Spring Attack, on the ground.


----------



## Rathan (May 16, 2011)

SRD said:
			
		

> Spring Attack Benefit:
> 
> When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can’t use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor.




The reason I ask is that spring attack does not specify what type of movement you are using, flight or ground attack, just that it's an attack action which fly by attack is.

EDIT: I guess I have to defer to you Jemal... what do you think?


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (May 16, 2011)

Rathan, the problem is that you are trying to combine two different feats that, while they are similar, are not related to each other in any way shape or form. Now the funny thing is you can spring attack while flying, which gets you an attack with no attack of opportunity, whereas using flyby attack for it gets you a standard action with an attack of opportunity.


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (May 16, 2011)

K, I kinda derailed my last concept to the point where it didn't become viable anymore so I started again. Here is the end results.

[sblock=Ghatto Link]
[sblock=Stats]
Race: Human
AL:CN HT: 5'8" WT: 126 Hair: Black Eyes: Red

Scout 24, Ranger 3, Monk 4, Fighter 4, Master Thrower 5
First 20 Levels: Scout 4, Ranger 3, Monk 4, Fighter 4, Master Thrower 5

*Str*: 21/+5 (10 Base + 6 Enhancement + 5 Inherant)
*Dex*: 40/+15 (17 Base + 10 Level + 6 Enhancement + 5 Inherant + 2 Graft)
*Con*: 30/+10 (17 Base + 6 Enhancement + 5 Inherant + 2 Graft)
*Int*: 28/+9 (18 Base + 6 Enhancement + 4 Inherant)
*Wis*: 28/+9 (18 Base + 6 Enhancement + 5 Inherant)
*Cha*: 22/+6 (11 Base + 6 Enhancement + 5 Inherant)

*AC*: 59 (10 Base + 8 Armor + 10 Natural Armor + 5 Deflection + 16 Dex + 9 Wis + 1 Monk)
*Flat Footed AC*: 45 (10 Base + 8 Armor + 10 Natural Armor + 5 Deflection + 9 Wis + 1 Monk + 2 Warning)
*Touch AC*: 41 (10 Base + 5 Deflection + 16 Dex + 9 Wis + 1 Monk)
*Flat Footed Touch AC*: 27 (10 Base + 5 Deflection + 9 Wis + 1 Monk + 2 Warning)

*HD:* 36d8 + 4d10 + 400
*HP:* 720
*Initiative*: +25 (15 Dex + 3 Competence + 2 Eager + 5 Warning)
*Land Speed*: 60ft
*Fly Speed*: 80ft (good)
*Languages: *All except Druidic

*BAB*: 18
*Fort*: +42 (13 Base + 10 Con + 10 Epic + 5 Resistance +3 Competence +1 Luck)
*Ref*: +49 (16 Base + 15 Dex + 10 Epic + 5 Resistance +2 Competence +1 Luck)
*Will*: +37 (8 Base + 9 Wis + 10 Epic + 5 Resistance + 4 Insight +1 Luck) [/sblock]

[sblock=Feats (24)]
Point Blank Shot (Human 1), Weapon Focus (Dagger) (1), Combat Expertise (3), Precise Shot (Scout 4), Track (Ranger 5), Power Attack (6), Two Weapon Fighting (Ranger 6), Endurance (Ranger 7), Stunning Fist (Monk 8), Favored Power Attack (9), Deflect Arrows (Monk 9), Improved Two Weapon Fighting (12), Brutal Throw (Fighter 12), Power Throw (Fighter 13), Ranged Weapon Mastery (Slashing)(15), Weapon Specilization (Dagger) (Fighter 15), Quick Draw (Master Thrower 16), Slashing Fury (18), Snatch Arrow (Master Thrower 19) Improved Critical (Dagger)(Master Thrower 20), Swift Hunter (Scout 24), Rapid Shot (Scout 28), Far Shot (Scout 32), Improved Skirmish (Scout 36)

*Epic Feats (8)*: Greater Two Weapon Fighting (21), Perfect Two Weapon Fighting (24), Infinite Deflection (27), Exceptional Deflection (30), Bane of Enemies (33), Polyglot (36), Improved Combat Expertise (39), Distant Shot (Scout 40)[/sblock]

[sblock=Special Abilities]
Favored Enemy (Evil Outsiders +8, Good Outsiders +8, Undead +4, Constructs +4, Dragons +6, Elementals +4), Wild Empathy, Combat Style (Two Weapon Fighting), Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Evasion, Improved Evasion, Still Mind, Ki Strike (magical), Slow Fall (20ft), Skirmish (8d6, +7 AC), Trapfinding, Battle Fortitude +3, Uncanny Dodge, Trackless Step, Fast Movement (+20ft), Blindsight 30ft, Flawless Stride, Camouflage, Hide in Plain Sight, Freedom of Movement, Critical Throws, Snatch Arrows, Palm Throw, Deadeye Shot, Weakspot [/sblock]

[sblock=Skills (535)]
Hide +98 (43 Ranks + 30 Competence Bonus + 15 Dex + 4 Synergy + 1 Luck + 5 Anonymity)

Move Silently +93 (43 Ranks + 30 Competence Bonus + 15 Dex + 4 Synergy + 1 Luck )

Spot +77 (43 Ranks + 10 Competence Bonus + 9 Wis + 1 Luck + 5 Draconic Vision + 9 Insight)

Listen +53 (43 Ranks + 9 Wis + 1 Luck), Tumble +79 (43 Ranks + 20 Competence Bonus + 15 Dex + 1 Luck)

Search +72 (43 Ranks + 9 Wis + 1 Luck + 10 Competance + 9 Insight))

Knowledge Nature +62 (43 Ranks + 5 Competence Bonus + 9 Int + 4 Synergy + 1 Luck)

Knowledge Dungeoneering +58 (43 Ranks + 5 Competence Bonus + 9 Int + 1 Luck)

Knowledge Arcana +58 (43 Ranks + 5 Competence Bonus + 9 Int + 1 Luck)

Knowledge Religion +58 (43 Ranks + 5 Competence Bonus + 9 Int + 1 Luck)

Knowledge Geography +58 (43 Ranks + 5 Competence Bonus + 9 Int + 1 Luck)

Knowledge History +15 (1/2 Rank + 5 Competence Bonus + 9 Int + 1 Luck)

Knowledge Architecture And Engineering +15 (1/2 Rank + 5 Competence Bonus + 9 Int + 1 Luck)

Knowledge Local +15 (1/2 Rank + 5 Competence Bonus + 9 Int + 1 Luck)

Knowledge Nobility and Royalty +15 (1/2 Rank + 5 Competence Bonus + 9 Int + 1 Luck)

Knowledge The Planes +25 (10 Ranks + 5 Competence Bonus + 9 Int + 1 Luck)

Jump +52 (0 Ranks + 15 Dex + 12 Speed + 20 Competence + 1 Luck + 4 Synergy)

Survival +35 (25 Ranks + 9 Wisdom + 1 Luck), Balance +40 (0 Ranks + 15 Dex + 20 Competence + 1 Luck + 4 Synergy)

Climb +26 (0 Ranks + 5 Str + 20 Competence + 1 Luck)

Use Magic Device +7 (1/2 Rank + 6 Cha + 1 Luck)

Spellcraft +14 (1/2 Rank + 9 Int + 1 Luck + 4 Synergy)

Slieght of Hand +17 (1 Rank + 15 Dex + 1 Luck)

Sense Motive +26 (6 Ranks + 9 Wis + 1 Luck + 10 Insight)

Speak Language x14

Skill Tricks: Acrobatic Backstab, Clarity of Vision, Listen to This, Point it Out, Slipping Past[/sblock]

[sblock=Equipment]
[sblock=Grafts and Skins: 670,000]
*Chitin Plating +5: 100,000*
*Flexible Spine: 91,000*
*Healing Blood: 182,000*
*Silthilar Bones: 110,000*
*Silthilar Tendons: 110,000*
*Skin of the Hero: 77,000 *[/sblock]

[sblock=Weapons: 8,017,555]
*+5 Adamantine Defending, Warning (+1, MiC, pg 46), Eager (+1, MiC, pg 34), Skillful (+2, Complete Arcane, pg 144), Broadbladed Shortsword (75, Complete Adventurer, pg 117: 203,075*
*+1 Adamantine Daggers of Triple Throw and Returning x4: 3,932,032*
*x27 +5 Adamantine Daggers of Returning: 2,025,216*
*+5 Adamantine Dagger of Speed and Returning: 165,008*
*x27 +1 Adamantine Daggers of Returning and Transmuting (+2, MiC, pg 45): 945,216*
*+1 Adamantine Dagger of Speed, Transmuting (+2, MiC, pg 45), and Returning: 75,008*
*Greater Demolition Crystals (6,000, MiC, pg 65) x32: 192,000*
*Greater Fiendslaying Crystals (5,000, MiC, pg 65) x32: 160,000*
*Greater Truedeath Crystals (10,000, MiC, pg 66) x32: 320,000 *[/sblock]

[sblock=Main Gear: 3,416,230]
*Throat: Flesh Ring of Scorn (8,000, MiC, pg 100) of Fortune Prevailing (5,000, MiC, pg 69), Word Twisting (6,000, MiC, pg 71), Chronocharm of the Celestial Wanderer (500, MiC, pg 85), Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker (500, MiC, pg 86), Enemy Spirit (Construct, Undead, Dragon, Evil Outsider, Good Outsider, Elemental)(12,600, MiC, pg 97), Scentblinder (8,000, MiC, pg 132), Warning (4,000, MiC, pg 118) Health +6 (36,000), Mighty Fist +5 (150,000), Planes (120,000), Glory (8,000), Adaption (9,000), Wisdom +6 (36,000), Protection (38,000), Golembane (2,500), Dragon's Eye (55,000, MiC, pg 95): 666,150*

*Feet: Boots of Agile Leaping (600, MiC, pg 76), Translocation (1,400, MiC, pg 71), Big Stepping (6,000, MiC, pg 76), Jumping (2,500, MiC, pg 77), Landing (500, MiC, pg 77), Sidestepping (6,000, MiC, pg 78), Swift Passage (5,000, MiC, pg 78), Tracklessness (11,000, MiC, pg 79), Tremorsense (5,000, MiC, pg 79), Dimension Striding (2,000, MiC, pg 94), Quicksilver (3,500, MiC, pg 119), Skirmisher (6,200, MiC, pg 136), Swiftness (256,000), Speed (12,000), Teleportation (49,000), Spiderclimbing (4,800): 429,250*

*Waist: Belt of Battle (12,000, MiC, pg 73), Ultimate Athleticism (3,600, MiC, pg 75), Monks (13,000), Giant Strength +6 (36,000): 67,900*

*Torso: Bolt Shirt (5,000, MiC, pg 75) of Rogue's (18,000, MiC, pg 130), Sepulchral (2,000, MiC, pg 133), Daazzix (25,000, DMG2, pg 267): 62,500*

*Ring 1: Bone Ring (20,000, MiC, pg 75) of Mystic Defiance (7,500, MiC, pg 125), Sustenance (2,500), Solar Wings (118,000, BoED, pg 115): 163,000*

*Ring 2: Ring of Sequestering (300,000), Vanishing (30,000, MiC, pg 128), X-Ray Vision (25,000), Feather Falling (2,200) Spell Turning (98,280): 366,080*

*Ring 3 (Hand o fGlory): Ring of Universal Elemental Resistance (180,000, MiC, pg 128), Protection +5 (50,000), Negative Protection (36,000, MiC, pg 126): 318,000*

*Arms: Bracers of Accuracy (4,000, MiC, pg 79), Deathstrike (5,000, MiC, pg 93), Armor +8 (64,000): 77,500*

*Hands: Casting Gloves (40,000, MiC, pg 84) of Agile Striking (2,200, MiC, pg 105), Infinite Blades (6,500, MiC, pg 101), Arrow Reflection (2,000, MiC, pg 101), Weaponry Arcane (6,000, MiC, pg 104), Fortunate Striking (2,000, MiC, pg 105), Manual Prowess (3,000, MiC, pg 106): 72,550*

*Face: Crystal Mask of Detection (10,000, MiC, pg 90), Discernment (10,000, MiC, pg 90), Insight (20,000, MiC, pg 91), Knowledge (all) (25,000, MiC, pg 91), Mindarmor (10,000, MiC, pg 92), Visual Insight (10,000, MiC, pg 92), Dragon (4,000, MiC, pg 94), Truth (5,500, MiC, pg 99), Foefinding (2,500, MiC, pg 108), Lifesight (2,000, MiC, pg 108), Third Eye Clarity (3,000, MiC, pg 141), Third Eye Conceal (120,000, MiC, pg 141), Third Eye Surge (2,100, MiC, pg 143), Draconic Vision (16,000, MiC, pg 107): 300,150*

*Shoulders: Mantle of Second Chances (12,000, MiC, pg 115), Transposer (6,000, MiC, pg 144), Epic Spell Resistance (290,000), Great Stealth (242,000), Charisma +6 (36,000), Flying (54,000): 815,000*

*Head: Scout's Headband (3,400, MiC, pg 132) of Intelligence +6 (36,000), Disguise (1,800), Anonymity (12,500, MiC, pg 109), Comprehend Languages and Read Magic (5,200): 70,350 *[/sblock]

[sblock=Slotless Items: 1,413,800]
*Manual of Bodily Health +5: 137,500*
*Manual of Gainful Exercise +5:137,500*
*Manual of Quickness of Action +5: 137,500*
*Tome of Clear Thought +4: 110,000*
*Tome of Understanding +5: 137,500*
*Tome of Leadership and Influence +5: 137,500*
*Rod of Invulnerability 600,000*
*Heward's Handy Haversack: 2,000*
*Portable Hole: 20,000*
*Quiver of Ehlonna: 1,800*
*Luckstone: 20,000*
*82,415 gp *[/sblock][/sblock]

[sblock=Attacks]
Full Round Attack (w/ Haste/Rapid Shot/Slashing Fury): +43x16/+38x4/+33x4/+28x4 1d4+9 Crit: 17-20 x3
Against Favored Enemy: +46x16/+41x4/+36x4/+31x4 1d4+13+2d6
While Improved Skirmishing: 1d4+11+10d6 [/sblock]

[sblock=Times/Day Effects]
Third Eye Surge: add insight bonus to damage (3 charges/day) (swift)
Third Eye Clarity: negates dazed, confused, fascinate, or stunned (1/day) (immediate)
Skirmisher's Boots: make an attack as a swift action (2/day) (swift)
Scout's Headband: darkvision, see invisibility or true seeing (3 charges/day) (standard)
Sepulchral Vest: +5 sacred bonus to saves against undead effects (3/day) (immediate)
Ring of Vanishing: greater invisibility for 2 rounds and cannot be sensed by natural senses (blindsight ect) (3/day) (swift)
Boots of Teleportation: teleport (3/day) (standard)
Quicksilver Boots: move action as a swift action (2/day) (swift)
Ring of Spellturning: spellturning for 9 spell levels (3/day) (standard)
Boots of Swiftness: haste for 20 rounds (3/day) (standard)
Mantle of Second Chances: gain effect of luck domain (1/day) (none)
Transposer Cloak: switch positions with another creature within 30ft (3/day) (swift)
Goggles of Lifesight: see if target is alive/undead/construct (3/day) (standard)
Gloves of Manual Prowess: competance bonus to sleight of hand (3 charges/day) (swift)
Gloves of Fortunate Striking: reroll attack roll (1/day) (immediate)
Gloves of Agile Striking: increase ranged attack by 1d6, or skirmish by 2d6 (2/day) (swift)
Gauntlets of Infinite Blades: create +3 bane dagger of seeking (1/day) (swift)
Gauntlet of Arrow Reflection: reflect range attack at attacker (3/day) (immediate)
Flesh Ring of Scorn: critical hit automatically confirms (3/day) (none)
Eyes of Truth: true seeing for 1 round (1/day) (swift)
Dragon Mask: see invisibility for 5 minutes (2/day) (swift)
Dimension Stride Boots: teleport short disances (5 charges/day) (standard)
Deathstrike Bracers: crit oozes, constructs, elemental, plants, and undead in melee for 1 round (3/day) (swift)
Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker: move half speed as a swift action (1/day) (swift)
Chronocharm of the Celestial Wanderer: reroll spot or listen check (1/day) (immediate)
Bracers of Accuracy: ignore miss chance or concielment (3 charges/day) (swift)
Amulet of Fortune Prevailing: reroll a saving throw (1/day) (immediate)
Belt of Battle: gain an extra action (3 charges/day) (swift)
Bolt Shirt: teleport up to 60ft as a move action (1/day) (move)
Bone Ring: prevents ability drain (3 charges/day) (none)
Boots of Big Stepping: teleport 60ft (3/day) (standard)
Boots of Sidestepping: take an additional 5ft step (3/day) (swift)
Belt of Ultimate Athleticism: take 20 on a jump, tumble, climb, swim, or balance check (1/day) (swift)
Boots of Swift Passage: teleport 20ft as a move action (5/day) (move)
Boots of Tremorsense: gain tremorsense for 5 rounds (3/day) (swift)
Boots of Tracklessness: use greater invisibility for 7 rounds (1/day) (standard)
Anklet of Translocation: teleport 10ft (2/day) (swift) [/sblock]

[sblock=Immunities]
Third Eye Conceal: mind-affecting, scrying, detect effects, read emotions or thoughts, information gaining effects.
Ring of Negative Protection: negative levels
Necklace of Adaption: All harmful vapors and gases
Rod of Invulnerabilty: Critical hits 
Scentblinder: Scent[/sblock] [/sblock]


----------



## Jemal (May 16, 2011)

Rathan - Great work so far, I'll have a look at it once I'm done updating all my threads here, but at a quick glance it looks very well done.
Also, Dharuhk is right about Spring attack/Fly by.  They're seperate feats that do seperate things.  Spring attack allows you to move-attack-move, and Fly-by allows you to move-standard-move.  They're not just the same feat for ground/flying under different names, and they don't follow the same feat trees.
I'd suggest just going with the Spring-Attack tree.  Fly-by is better for ranged characters b/c there's a lot of nice ranged-attack styles that are based off Standard Actions, but if you're going Melee you want to put some Spring in your step.

Shayuri - Couldn't spot the Tayella in the ELH, so I'll check the SRD.

Dharhuhk - I'll give it a closer inspection soon, but one thing I notice is that you have items from BoED.  I won't be allowing anything from Exalted or Vile books in this game.  Sorry I thought I'd had that on the 'no-fly' list.


All - OK, So After reviewing my notes I'm reminded of a few things I forgot to include in the original post, and I apologize profusely, especially if they require changes for your characters, but Here they are:

First: Immunities - Each character may only have one or two immunities.  I wouldn't suggest instant-death cuz I don't use it, so it'd be kinda pointless.  What this means is you could be immune to one element, or crits, or have Mind Blank or Freedom of Movement, but not multiples.  Minor stuff doesn't matter (immunities to poison/disease, shield=magic missile immunity, etc), but I don't want a bunch of characters running around immune to a dozen different things.
*NOTE: This does not mean you get to pick one or two FREE, just that you can't HAVE more than a couple.*

Secondly: One-hit-kills - I dislike attack forms meant to end a fight with a single attack, such as instant death attacks, "Save-OR" effects, etc.  It's not as prevalent in a non-spellcasting campaign, and I'm not going to outlaw it, but be warned that every time you use one of these effects, I WILL use a similar method back on your character in the near future, and that's pretty much the only time I'll use such attacks.  Just remember the rule of MAD.

And finally: I'd prefer it if people didn't pump their stats TOO much (Specifically AC, Attack bonuses, Saves).  I'd prefer not to have the case of "Monster needs a 20 to hit player X, a 2 to hit anyone else" or "OK, saves everybody.. X and Y need 20's, everyone else don't roll a 1".  
It makes encounter design a lot more of a headache when the numbers are too far gone.  SO, If you notice your numbers are a LOT higher (Say more than 20) than everyone else, either look into devoting less to that stat, or helping the others bring their power up to your level.

Don't be too worried about keeping in line with the other players, everyone SHOULD have their own unique strengths and weaknesses, just don't go overboard on pumping something.  If any of your Attack/AC/Saves numbers has three digits, for example, it's probably too high...
Unless you can all swing such numbers in which case - Sweet, I can take off the gloves and throw the paragon pseudonatural half-draconic 3-headed tarrasquelich at you guys.  j/k... mostly.


----------



## Shayuri (May 16, 2011)

Hmm...by those rules, I seem to have OD'ed on immunities by item then. I'll do some revisions. As I read it, my item of Mind Blank and my Ring of Universal Elemental Resistance are a tad too much, yes?

Here's a link to Tayellah.

SRD - Epic Monsters

And it is in the ELH. Page 220. Three-headed cat-thing just before the Thoracid thingy...

As for other things...my attack bonus tops off in the 50's or 60's, depending on the form I take. My AC hits a high of mid to high 80's with draconic forms (though my touch AC in those forms is fairly plah). Save bonuses fluctuate a bit, but I don't think they'll go over 60...Fort and Ref will hover in the mid 40's and 50's. Will is pretty much stuck at 46 since Wis doesn't change.

Let me know if any of that is a problem...as well as the monk feats like Exception and Infinite Deflection.


----------



## Jemal (May 16, 2011)

A quick re-take on the immunities: If you're spending feats on them, that's not as bad (Infinite deflection, for example) b/c it's a fairly high cost that you could be spending on something else.  It's mostly the Item-based immunities that I'm against.

Shay - Musta missed it.  Yeah the Tayellah's fine, though I'd rule that it's Insight bonus is Supernatural, not Extraordinary (Not sure if that makes a difference.. does it?).  
Your stats are no problem, I don't think those're gonna be OP #'s.

Elemental Resistance is no problem, but Universal Elemental IMMUNITY is a  nono.  With a lack of spellcasters, it's unlikely to be much of an issue except against Bosses (Gods/Dragons/etc).


----------



## Shayuri (May 16, 2011)

Okay, I can swap the Universal Immunity for Greater Resistance then...that'll free up a whole LOAD of cash that I have no idea how to spend...but that's not really a "problem." 

As for the Tayellah, due to epic feats I gain the Su abilities of Magical Beasts and Dragons that I wildshape into, so nope...not a problem.  I also gain the Su abilities of Elementals, as I understand it, due to druid levels...but I'm not sure how that interacts with Improved Wild Shape...

sadly, there's no such feats for Aberrations or Fey, but then I guess you'd be faced with horribly enhanced Beholders and and PIXIES and such, so perhaps it's for the best. 

Oh oh, one other thing regarding immunities...various forms my character takes have various immunities based on creature type and special abilities. Hope that's okay. In general it's not usually more than one or two major immunities at a time, and sometimes not even that. The best combat forms typically don't have much in the way of immunity (Tayellah has none, force dragon has one minor one, gold dragon has fire, but is vulnerable to cold, etc).

And Warshaper gives me immunity to stuns and crits, but that's not overly hard for me to get via elemental, ooze, or plant shape, so hopefully it's not too obnoxious.

Here's a breakdown of immunities (after removing Universal Energy Immunity).

What am I immune to in any shape?
- Mind affecting effects and divinations
- Any ranged attack that uses an attack roll (unless I roll a '1' on the Ref save)
- Planar traits
- Stuns and Crits
- Transmutations (from Evershifting Form)

All other immunities are per form.

Edit - Ooo! Ideas on what to spend excess cash on!

What are your feelings about Strongholds?   It'd be nice to have a little bolthole to escape to...a hidden grove, perhaps...or demiplane of nature tucked away in the deep ethereal...

Or Leadership perhaps...not to make a combat cohort, since that's impossible, but perhaps someone who has skills I lack, like a bard or something... Someone who can mind the demiplane and perhaps answer a few plot-driving questions?


----------



## Jemal (May 16, 2011)

OK, now I'm a bit confused - Why do you need a reflex save to deflect? It's automatic so long as you have a free hand to do it with (Or any prehensile appendage, for other forms)

Also, just FYI - Immunity to Force is far from minor, it's Awesome.. Force dragons aren't just immune to force DAMAGE, they're immune to force EFFECTS.  they can walk through Walls of Force, be immune to magic missile, and attack people hiding in Resilient spheres.


----------



## Shayuri (May 16, 2011)

Oops, you're right...for some reason I had the ELH versions in my head. Forgot they changed that in 3.5.

Don't get me wrong about immunity to force, it IS awesome...but in a game world with very limited spellcating, force effects are rare indeed. It's one of those abilities I don't anticipate coming up often, but being very nice when it does come up.


----------



## Nephtys (May 16, 2011)

Shayuri said:


> Here's a link to Tayellah.
> 
> SRD - Epic Monsters
> 
> And it is in the ELH. Page 220. Three-headed cat-thing just before the Thoracid thingy...




That's a good way to get the coveted ability to Pounce.  Your build is looking great.


----------



## Jemal (May 16, 2011)

Strongholds are ok.

As far as Leadership, gonna have to think on that one, I don't have a problem if only one person takes it, but if everybody ends up wanting a cohort...

As far as combat cohorts, they're only two levels lower, and still have a respectable amount of gear, though as stated above, I'd prefer not to have them artificially inflating the party size.


----------



## Shayuri (May 16, 2011)

I just meant regular Leadership, which caps at level 17.

Got no space for epicness.


----------



## Rathan (May 16, 2011)

Ok... I've giving up the universal immunity for immunity to the two elements I had resistances to with paragon, cold and fire. I felt given the resistances, it fit an epic character to have immunity to both of these. I also have freedom of movement with scout. Is this fair to you Jemal? If no I can just drop the ring of immunity and take the greater resistance as Shay has opted to. 

Also guys.... I need some help rounding out my feats... anyone got any suggestions to fill in my higher level feat slots? PLEASE halp! LOL

EDIT: Also I have NO clue what to pick up for one level of a third class... What would be a good combo?


----------



## Jemal (May 16, 2011)

Will make decision on Leadership - and help Rath out - After I get some sleep.
Night all.


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (May 16, 2011)

K, I got my 2 item based immunites and a few minor immunites, but the one that I don't know in which catagory it woul dfit is my immunity to negative levels. Its not like death ward where its immunity to negative energy, negative levels, and death effects, but it still isn't anything to scoff at. Your thoughts Jemal?

Also, you had specified no classes, feats, or powers that were god based, so I had figured items from BoED might be fine considering they aren't directly linked to dieties (not taking relics here  ) but if you don't want anything from that source at all its fine too.


----------



## Jemal (May 17, 2011)

Dharuhk - Sorry I wasn't clearer about the Exalted/Vile, I'd meant to dissalow those books completely, not just the classes/feats.

As far as neg. levels, I got no problem with it, it's a rare occurence.

Rathan - Those immunities are fine, as far as a third class, I was thinking you may wish to try a dervish.  It'd need more than one level, so you'd probably need to devote some of your scout to it, but the two of them work so well together - Dervish Dance allows you to Full-attack while moving, and gives you a +1 to atk/dmg for every three levels. 

I'm gonna whip up a quick wip of what I'd do with it..

Also at first glance I see three problems with your feats:
Weapon Spec and Melee Weapon Mastery are unavailable to you, as they require multiple levels in the Fighter Class (Of which you have zero).  Also you don't need Wingover b/c you have Perfect Manueverability, which allows you to change direction at will, AND hover.


----------



## Rathan (May 17, 2011)

oooohh... sounds nifty Jemal... however keep in mind... based on my base race (human) I have little in the way of seeing things at night/magical darkness/other stuffs. I was hoping for the blindsight from scout to help me out with that... if you can work blindsight into my build somehow that would be awesome! If not... well I'm sure you can work something in heh


----------



## Jemal (May 17, 2011)

There's plenty of ways to gain darkvision, and don't forget you'll still have blindSENSE.  not as good as blindfight, but still useful.


----------



## Rathan (May 17, 2011)

Hey.. if you feel it won't handi-cap me much then I'm fine with it... without much spell casting I just have to worry about creature abilities with darkness and such... I doubt it will come up often heh.


----------



## Jemal (May 17, 2011)

Allright, here's a quick look at what I've done so far.
Notable changes: 
Dropped 6 scout for 6 Dervish, and re-added 1 ranger (The Swift Hunter feat is a must have if you're going to be skirmishing)
I changed your weapon from a Spear to a Halberd, it's pretty much the same thing except it's 1d10 instead of 1d8, and counts as both slashing AND piercing(Allowing you to use it for dervish dance), and it can still be set against a charge like a spear.  The only downside is it can't be thrown, but I doubt you were planning on doing that anyways.

Haven't touched your Items, but I'd suggest finding a way of gaining Haste for the extra attack and the +1 atk/Ac/Reflex bonus.  
Also, where's winged helm from, and why'd you take it when you allready have natural flight?(Sounds like its a flying item)

you LOOSE: Two scout feats(Though gain 1 from Dervish), Freedom of Movement, 1d6/+1 Skirmish, Blindsight reduces to Blindsense.
you GAIN: Lots.  AC, Saves, attack bonus all went up, lots of new abilities.  I got your BAB up to 16, giving you your fourth iterative attack 
[sblock=Valkyrie]
Name: Pithramir the "Valkyrie" 
Race: Paragon [+16 LA] Winged [+2 LA] Human
Class: Scout 14/Ranger1/Dervish 6/Monk 1
Alignment: NG
ECL: 40
Gender: Male
Height/Weight: 6'1"/210 lbs.
Hair/Eyes: Bright Blue/Silver

Str: 55 +22 (18 Pts, +15 Paragon, +5 Inherent, +5 Level, +12 Enhancement)
Dex: 42 +16 (18 Pts, +15 Paragon, +5 Inherent, +4 Template
Con: 50 +20 (18 Pts, +15 Paragon, +5 Inherent, +12 Enhancement)
Int: 25 +7 (10 Pts, +15 Paragon)
Wis: 44 +17 (16 Pts. +15 Paragon, +5 Inherent, +2 Template, +6 Enhancement)
Cha: 35 +12 (10 Pts, +15 Paragon, +5 Inherent)
Points Unspent: 0

BAB: +17/+12/+7/+2 [+16/+11/+6/+1 Base, +1 Epic Progressing]
HP: 112[Scout]+8[Monk]+70[Dervish]+440[Con Mod]+264[Paragon]= 894
AC: 84 (10 Base, +16 Dex, +17 Wis, +12 Insight, +12 Luck, +5 Natural, +10 Deflection +2 Dervish)  *+4/6 when Skirmishing*
Init: +20 (+16 Dex, +2 Scout, +2 Dervish)
Speed: 30(50 Fly, Perfect) [90(150 Fly, Perfect)]

Saves:
Fort: +49 (7 Base, +20 Con, +10 Paragon, +2 Scout, +10 Enhancement)
Refl: +51 (15 Base, +16 Dex, +10 Paragon, +10 Enhancement)
Will: +45 (8 Base, +17 Wis, +10 Paragon, +10 Enhancement)

Attacks:
+7 Keen Impaling Adamantine Ghost Strike Halberd +72 (+17 BAB, +22 Str, +25 Paragon, +7 Weapon, +1 WF] to hit / 1d10+60 dmg (33[1.5xStr]+7[Weapon]+20[Paragon]) {+6d6 dmg w/Skirmish, +5 vs favoured enemies} 19-20/X3 Crit



Racial/Special Abilities:
Paragon:
*A paragon creature always has maximum hit points. Paragon creatures also gain an additional 12 hit points per HD.
*A paragon creature’s speed triples, for all movement types.
*Paragon creatures gain a +12 insight bonus to AC and a +12 luck bonus to AC. They also gain a +5 natural armor bonus
*A paragon creature makes all its attacks with a +25 luck bonus on the attack roll. 
*A paragon creature gains a +20 luck bonus on damage rolls for all melee and thrown ranged attacks. 
*A paragon creature’s special attacks, if any, all gain a +13 insight bonus, if applicable. The +13 insight bonus may only be applied to a given special ability once.
*Fire and cold resistance 10.
*Damage reduction 15/epic.
*Spell resistance equal to the paragon creature’s HD+26 [48]. 
*Fast healing 20.
*A paragon creature’s natural weapons are treated as epic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
*The paragon creature gains a +10 insight bonus on all its saving throws.
*All ability scores are 15 points higher than those of the base creature. 
*The paragon creature gains a +10 competence bonus on all its skill checks. 
* Feats: Same as the base creature, plus one bonus feat. 
Winged:
* +4 Dex, +2 Wis, Fly = Land Speed +20 ft, Perfect Manuv.
Scout:
*Skirmish (+4d6, +4 AC)
*Blindsense 30 ft.
*Battle Fort. +2 (+2 Fort Checks, +2 Init)
*Hide in Plain Sight
*Camouflage
*Flawless stride
*Fast Movement
*Uncanny Dodge
*Trapfinding
Ranger:
*Favored Enemy(X4)
*Track
*Wild Empathy
Dervish:
*Dervish Dance 3/day(+2 atk/dmg)
*Fast Move
*Spring Attack
*Dance of Death(Gain Cleave while Dancing)
*Improved Reaction(+2 Initiative)
Monk:
*Ac Bonus (Wis to AC when wearing light or no armor, +2 From Dervish)
*Flurry of Blows
*Unarmed Strike

Skills: Scout 1st (8+8)x4 Scout 2nd-14th (8+8)x14, Dervis 1st-6th(4+8)X6, Ranger 1st(6+8), Monk 1st(4+8)= 386

Feats: 
Human: Dodge [+1 Dodge Bns to AC Against Selected Foes]
Paragon Bonus: 
Monk 1st: Stunning Fist
1st: Mobility [+4 dodge bns to AC against AoO when you move out of threatened area]
3rd: Weapon Focus 
Scout 4th: Combat Expertise
Ranger 1: Track
6th: Swift Hunter [Ranger and Scout stack for Skirmish and Favoured Enemy; Skirmish dmg applies to Favoured Enemies even if they're immune to Crits]
Scout 8th: Improved Skirmish [+2d6 dmg, +2 AC if moved more than 20 feet from start]
9th: Improved Favoured Enemy [+3 dmg vs favoured enemies]
12th: 
Scout 12th: Short Haft
15th: 
Dervish 3rd: Spring Attack
18th: 
21st[Epic]:


Equipment:

Magical Items: 1,037,695 gold left
Tomes/Manuals:
*Str +5 137,500 gp
*Dex +5 137,500 gp
*Con +5 137,500 gp
*Wis +5 137,500 gp
*Cha +5 137,500 gp
+7 Keen [+1] Impaling [+1] Adamantine Ghost Strike [+1] Halberd 2,000,305 gp
Wraps (Cloak) of Epic Resistance +10 1,000,000 gp
Ring of Epic Protection +10 and Universal Energy Immunity 5,160,000 gp
Torc (Periapt) of Wis +6 36,000 gp
Belt of Epic Strength and Con +12 3,600,000 gp
Winged Helm (Helm) of Teleportation and Comp. Langs and Read Magic 81,300 gp [/sblock]


----------



## Rathan (May 17, 2011)

Me likie! 

Now for Questions/Comments: 

* Where's Dervish at book-wise?

* I have a LOT more cash as I need to get rid of the universal immunity for the two immunities to fire and cold. So I think I can work haste in somewhere.

* Tis ok with the Free Movement, I can get another ring with Freedom of movement on it.

* What ability allows me to get full attack with spring attack?

* Do you feel my AC it too high for the campaign? Or at least am I making it too high for my other companions as you'll have to adjust to hits for our opponents just to hit me?

*The Helm is a stacked helm of teleportation and a helm of comprehend languages and read magic. I just made it 'winged' for the Valkyrie feel and flavor.


----------



## Shayuri (May 17, 2011)

Hm.

Jemal, any chance you could take a look at my character and see if there's any places I could tighten up the design? Starting to wonder if I'll be holding up my end of combats looking at the revised Valkyrie.


----------



## Rathan (May 17, 2011)

That's what I'm afraid of Shay.. I don't want people to have to tweak to keep up :/


----------



## Fenris (May 17, 2011)

Jemal said:


> Shayuri/Fenris - twenty levels in a base class at Epic just seems rather boggling to me.. If you're going to invest that much into the class, why not take it Epic? (Mechanically for the bonus feats, Thematically for the feeling of "I'm a <insert class here>!")



You are quite right Jemal. Looking at him he was a pile of numbers for me. I went back and found a thematic element that worked for me, something where I could say "He is an Epic X". A character I could see the backstory for, where he has been why he is epic. So here is my WIP, I still have some money and some feats to allocate. I look forward to any and all feedback on him, I am sure there are lots of tweaks, fixes and problems with him. I just hope nothing disallowed.

Jemal, your prohibition on the sudden death things, does that apply to devastating critical?

WIP
[sblock]
Name: Dzuron Kzazak
Male Dwarf
Dwarven Fighter 20 (1st and 8th)/Dwarven Defender 20

Description: 

Str 18/43 +10 level +5 inherent +10 Enchantment (+16)
Dex 17/32 +5 inherent +10 Enchantment (+11)
Con 20/31 +2 racial +5 inherent +6 Enchantment (+10)
Int 10/
Wis 17/22 +5 inherent (+6)
Cha 8/ -2 racial 

AC:  61 (10 + 1 dex + 7 dodge + 10 nat + 20 armor +7 shield + 5 def +1 WSp)
Bulwark 67
 Touch , FF 
Damage Reduction: 25/-
Fort: + 29(+14 +10con +5 res)
Ref: +22 (+6 +11dex +5 res)
Will: +21 (+10 + 6Wis +5 res)
Hit Points: 844 (12+18d10+21d12 +400 Con)
Move: 20'
Init: +15

Base Attack: +30
Great axe +63 1D12+45

Feats:
-------
1 Improved Initiative +4 Init
3 Rapid Shot
6 Power Attack
9 
12 
15 Greater Weapon Focus (Greataxe) + 1 to hit
18 Greater Weapon Specialization (Greataxe) +2 to damage

21 Overwhelming critical
24 Epic Weapon Focus (Greataxe) +2 attack
27 Epic Weapon Specialization (Greataxe) +4 damage
30 Damage Reduction
33 Fast Healing
36 Blinding Speed
39 Damage Reduction

F1 Axe Focus (racial) +1 to hit 
F2 Point Blank shot
F4 Weapon Specialization (Greataxe) +2 damage
F6 Cleave
F8 Heavy Armor Expertise (racial)
F10 Great Cleave
F12 Improved Critical
F14 Armor Specialization
F16 Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing) +2 to hit, +2 damage
F18 
F20 Weapon Supremacy (Greataxe)

DD13 Bulwark of Defense
DD16 Damage Reduction
DD19 Devastating Critical (DC 46)

Race Traits: Dwarf
---------------


Class Traits:
-----------------
Dwarven Defender
Defensive Stance 10/day (+4 Str, +6 Con, +4 Resistance bonus to all Saves, +6 Dodge Bonus on AC)
Damage Reduction 12/-
+7 AC Bonus
Trap sense +2
Uncanny Dodge
Improved Uncanny Dodge
Mobile Defense


Equipment start 13,600,000
Cash: 1,114,551
 Adamantine Full plate +10, Heavy Fortification,  2,266,650
Heavy steel shield +5 Animated 49,170
Greataxe +11 Thundering, Shocking Burst, Ghost Touch 4,500,320 (15)
Guisarme +5  Keen, Corrosive, Icy Burst,  200,309
Long bow +XX Str +5 Seeking, Keen, Collision, Flaming (bow made from the ribs bones of an ancient red dragon) 200,000 +????
Tomes, 
- +5 Strength, 137,500
- +5 Dexterity, 137,500
- +5 Wisdom, 137,500
- +5 Constitution, 137,500

Straps of Strength and Speed (belt), 2.5mil
- +10 Strength, 1mil
- +10 Dexterity, 1.5mil


Unity of Threes: Amulet of Mind, Body, and Spirit – 2,054,000
- +10 Natural Armor, 2mil
- +6 Constitution, 54k

Vest of Resistance +5 25,000
Ring of Epic Protection +5 50,000
Ring of Regeneration 90,000



[/sblock]


----------



## Fenris (May 17, 2011)

Rathan said:


> Me likie!
> 
> Now for Questions/Comments:
> 
> * Where's Dervish at book-wise?




Complete Warrior.


----------



## Jemal (May 17, 2011)

Shayuri - Yeah no problem, I plan on offering my advice to everyone.  Whether they take it or not is up to them. 

Rathan - Dervish is from Complete Warrior, and it doesn't allow you to full-attack/spring attack, what it does is allow you to make a full attack while moving up to your movement speed, so long as you make at least a 5'move between each.  Combined with your improved skirmish, it'll essentially work out to you moving 20' to activate skirmish, and then 'dancing' circles around them taking an attack every 5 feet.  Dervish Dance itself does not prevent attacks of opportunity, but you can tumble.  I would suggest maxing out your tumble skill and using the dervish's movement mastery to Take ten, and the -20 to tumble at full speed, and automatically succed on your tumble check to avoid AoO's for movement without any speed reduction.

As I said, I dislike people buying immunities with GP, I'd prefer it if you didn't buy both two elements AND freedom of Movement.  I was ok when it was a class feature, but you've gained so much, to keep the immense benefits of freedom as a paltry 60k is a bit over the top.
RE: AC - Don't know, we'll have to see how it compares to other PC's and go from there.   Also I'm thinking of running an 'acid-test' encounter before the campaign begins, just a straight up combat against a nasty beasty so everyone can get a feel for how the characters stack up in real combat, and then make any last minute changes they feel are neccessary.
RE: Helm - cool.

Fenris - I'll look over the character in a bit, but wanted to answer your question first: Devastating Critical most definitely falls under the 'instant death/One-shot' category, that's the whole point of it : You crit, they save or die.  Same would go for a Vorpal Weapon or weapons of Disruption/Dread/slaying, if anybody's curious.  And keep in mind I'm not saying you can't use them, just that if you do so, I'll have no qualms against using similar effects on you.


----------



## Rathan (May 17, 2011)

Understandable Jemal... I'm going to drop the immunity ring get greater resistance instead because as a 'dancer' I don't want to dance around someone only to be grappled next round and not be able to slip free easily to keep dancing. The dance lasts 1 round for every 2 ranks in perform (dance), so to be able to keep using it I'd rather have the FoM instead of the immunities, the greater resistance will be fine methinks, especially as I have evasion and decent saves. I also plan on taking bounding assault as well as the dervish, use it to attack things as I come into my target then close (tumble) and use dervish dance at a 10 foot reach.. I dunno... we'll see how it works.

As for tumble I have like a +67 in my last build... I will definitely try and max that and my preform (dance) at least.

on the lighter side I think I have an awesome back story based loosely on a LARP I used to play that ended very recently.


----------



## Jemal (May 17, 2011)

Shayuri said:


> Nuthin to see here, just WIPing my new build.
> 
> By toning monk way down and replacing most of it with revised druid levels, I got Wildshape HD up to 35. This allows some absolutely fantastic shapes like juvenile force dragons, and ancient gold dragons...and much much more...
> 
> ...




Why still going with the 5 ranger rather than more levels in something else? 

You forgot to count the +1 spellcasting of Nature's Warrior at lvls 2 and 4.  If you dropped Druid to 15 and took two more levels in Nature's Warrior, you'd gain an additional +2 AC, another Nature's Armament, you'd still get all the bonuses for Druid 17 casting, and your Wild Shape wouldn't decrease.

Why didn't you up Warshaper to 5 for the fantastically awesome Multimorph?  It would essentially mean you can change form at will once per round as a move action.  Your Wild shape lasts for 35 hours per use, meaning you'd only need a single use per day, and could use the rest as backups or to power Wild feats.

Why Improved Initiative?  It's not a requirement for anything I can see, and the extra 4 initiative isn't really game-breaking in a game that isn't "Person who goes first wins".  Using that feat slot and the other empty one you have, you could take Improved Natural Attack twice, for Bite and Claw (Which will likely be your two most used attack forms), or Multiattack/Improved Multiattack.

Favoured Forms: Little bit of a math problem here, You're forgetting to account for the fact that your base Con is 18, not 10.  Your con scores increase by less than you have listed.
Tayellah : 34 (Tayella base) +4 (warshaper) = 38.  38 - 18(your base)= +20
Force Dragon : 28(Base) + 4 (warshaper) = 32- 18 base = +14

Equipment: 
I think the ring of Ironskin is a waste of money. DR 10/Magic is practically useless, especially when you could gain better DR through any number of shapes. Your favoured forms for example: Force dragon is 20/Magic and Tayellah is 15/Epic.


----------



## Shayuri (May 17, 2011)

_Why still going with the 5 ranger rather than more levels in something else?
_
It adds to my Wildshape HD, it gives me Favored Enemy bonus damage to a couple of creature types, and Endurance (a prereq for Master of Many Forms) as a bonus feat. Plus Tracking is fun. In short, it doesn't hurt, and it helps a little.

_You forgot to count the +1 spellcasting of Nature's Warrior at lvls 2 and 4. If you dropped Druid to 15 and took two more levels in Nature's Warrior, you'd gain an additional +2 AC, another Nature's Armament, you'd still get all the bonuses for Druid 17 casting, and your Wild Shape wouldn't decrease._

I didn't forget, I just didn't think it was very important. Good point about the AC though.

_Why didn't you up Warshaper to 5 for the fantastically awesome Multimorph? It would essentially mean you can change form at will once per round as a move action. Your Wild shape lasts for 35 hours per use, meaning you'd only need a single use per day, and could use the rest as backups or to power Wild feats._

Warshaper doesn't increase my Wildshape HD. It was very important that I get to 35 HD, so I could assume the draconic forms I wanted.

_Why Improved Initiative? It's not a requirement for anything I can see, and the extra 4 initiative isn't really game-breaking in a game that isn't "Person who goes first wins". Using that feat slot and the other empty one you have, you could take Improved Natural Attack twice, for Bite and Claw (Which will likely be your two most used attack forms), or Multiattack/Improved Multiattack._

That was a relic from a previous build. Good eye spotting it though...more feats are always useful. Heck, for that matter...do I need Combat Reflexes for anything?

_Favoured Forms: Little bit of a math problem here, You're forgetting to account for the fact that your base Con is 18, not 10. Your con scores increase by less than you have listed.
Tayellah : 34 (Tayella base) +4 (warshaper) = 38. 38 - 18(your base)= +20
Force Dragon : 28(Base) + 4 (warshaper) = 32- 18 base = +14_

Hmm, I thought I'd accounted for that. Let me doublecheck here...

Ah, I see...yes you're right. I was working the problem backwards and forgot about that. It works for Strength and Dex, because my base stats are 10 in those...okay, thanks for that catch too! 

I'll go through and adjust DC's and such as well, based on the corrected figures.

_Equipment:
I think the ring of Ironskin is a waste of money. DR 10/Magic is practically useless, especially when you could gain better DR through any number of shapes. Your favoured forms for example: Force dragon is 20/Magic and Tayellah is 15/Epic._

If a Ring of Ironskin gave DR 10/magic, it would be a waste of money, absolutely. It doesn't though. It gives DR 15/adamantine. And since there are plenty of critters at epic levels who don't pierce adamantine DR, it seems like a nice investment. Especially since I'm overflowing with cash at the moment.


----------



## Jemal (May 17, 2011)

Fenris said:


> Jemal, your prohibition on the sudden death things, does that apply to devastating critical?
> 
> WIP
> [sblock]
> ...




OK, first off your DR: Armour specialization and Adamantine armour won't stack with the natural armour bonuses granted by Defender and Epic Feats.  By my math your DR should be 21/Epic (12 for Dwarven Defender, +9 from 3X Epic feat)

Feats: Some suggestions could be Shield Spec/Shield Ward, and/or Slashing Fury.  Also, where are those racial feats from and what do they do?

If you want to increase your AC, you should invest in Combat Expertise/Improved Combat Expertise, and adding Defending to your weapon.  I'd also suggest throwing some Cross-class skill points into Tumble to increase your Defensive Fighting ability.  If you do go that route 

I was going to suggest dropping some of the Dwarven Defender levels to get Epic Fighter for more Epic Feats, but if you're still intent on maximizing your Damage Reduction, then it's not worth it.

Equipment: 
I'd suggest buying Boots of Swiftness: Double speed to help you get where you're going before activating your defensive stance, +20 tumble, and Haste 3/day for 20 rounds each(In addition to your 5 rounds/day from Blinding Speed).  

Since the adamantine won't stack for DR, I'd suggest altering your Full Plate into Mithril, to increase your Max Dex to +3.
Also, +10 dex added onto your belt of str isn't allowed, I specified no slot-swapping, and Dex is not a 'belt-slot' item.  Beyond that, it's kinda pointless to be spending so much on it when A: You can use gloves to save half a million, and B: You don't really need an Epic enhancement to dex, you're not really using it for anything, and you easily meet your Max Dex without it.  My suggestion would be to just get the +6 from the boots of swiftness. 

Weapons: 
I'd drop the Flaming on your bow, b/c at this level although things aren't going to be IMMUNE to everything, there's a VERY high chance of elemental resistances, so the 1d6 fire damage won't be very useful.  I'd make similar suggestions for your Greataxe(Thundering, Shocking Burst) and Guisarme(Corrosive, Icy Burst), though it's your call.

On the other hand, I do have some suggestions that might help:
For the bow, I'd suggest dropping Keen and/or Seeking to keep it non-epic in cost if you want to add one or more of these:
Force: +2 enhancement, turns your projectile into a Force effect, completely ignoring DR and Incorporeal miss chance.
Dessicating: +1 enhancement, deals +1d4 damage to living creatures(1d8 to plant/water)
Dessicating burst: +1 enhancement, adds onto desicating, extra damage on crits.
Psychokinetic: +1 enhancement, +1d4 force damage
Psychokinetic Burst: +1 enhancement, adds onto Force, extra damage on crits.
Vampiric: +2 enhancement, melee only, +1d6 damage, Heals wielder same amount.
Vicious: +1 enhancement, melee only, +2d6 damage, Wielder takes 1d6 damage.

And finally, the most important part : Threat Generation.  You're essentially playing a defensive Tank character, but how do you plan on getting the badguys to attack you?  
The only thing I can think of off the top of my head is the Goad feat from complete Adventurer, but it's got a couple downsides.  First is that it's mind-affecting, second is that you have to be in threatened range of the target to begin with, third is that it's a Will save DC 10 + 1/2 lvl + CHARISMA (And you aren't exactly a charisma character).
We're still working on other options.


----------



## Jemal (May 17, 2011)

Shayuri said:


> _That was a relic from a previous build. Good eye spotting it though...more feats are always useful. Heck, for that matter...do I need Combat Reflexes for anything?_



_
Infinite Deflection requires Combat Reflexes, or I would've suggested dropping it too.



			If a Ring of Ironskin gave DR 10/magic, it would be a waste of money, absolutely. It doesn't though. It gives DR 15/adamantine. And since there are plenty of critters at epic levels who don't pierce adamantine DR, it seems like a nice investment. Especially since I'm overflowing with cash at the moment.
		
Click to expand...



Where're you getting that from? My book says 10/+5, which should translate to Magic in 3.5, shouldn't it?_


----------



## Shayuri (May 17, 2011)

Not everything in 3.5 is a direct port like that. 

From the 3.5 SRD:
SRD - Epic Magic Items

*Ironskin*: This ring grants its wearer damage reduction 15/adamantine.
_Caster Level_: 20th; _Prerequisites_: Forge Ring, Forge Epic Ring, iron body; _Market Price_: 400,000 gp.


----------



## Rathan (May 17, 2011)

Jermal said:
			
		

> Quote:
> If a Ring of Ironskin gave DR 10/magic, it would be a waste of money, absolutely. It doesn't though. It gives DR 15/adamantine. And since there are plenty of critters at epic levels who don't pierce adamantine DR, it seems like a nice investment. Especially since I'm overflowing with cash at the moment.
> 
> Where're you getting that from? My book says 10/+5, which should translate to Magic in 3.5, shouldn't it?




From the SRD Jemal



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Ironskin
> 
> This ring grants its wearer damage reduction 15/adamantine.
> 
> Caster Level: 20th; Prerequisites: Forge Ring, Forge Epic Ring, iron body; Market Price: 400,000 gp.




*EDIT: Also all... I have NO idea what to pick for an epic feat... a little help here LOL... nothing seems to fit heh.*

EDIT2: Also... Lets see how this looks again so far!

[sblock=Duvalis the "Valkyrie"]Name: Duvalis [Do-Vaal-s] the "Valkyrie"
Race: Paragon [+16 LA] Winged [+2 LA] Human
Class: Scout 14/Ranger1/Dervish 6/Monk 1
Alignment: TN
ECL: 40
Gender: Male
Height/Weight: 6'1"/210 lbs.
Hair/Eyes: Bright Blue/Silver

Str: 55 +22 (18 Pts, +15 Paragon, +5 Inherent, +5 Level, +12 Enhancement)
Dex: 42 +16 (18 Pts, +15 Paragon, +5 Inherent, +4 Template
Con: 50 +20 (18 Pts, +15 Paragon, +5 Inherent, +12 Enhancement)
Int: 25 +7 (10 Pts, +15 Paragon)
Wis: 44 +17 (16 Pts. +15 Paragon, +5 Inherent, +2 Template, +6 Enhancement)
Cha: 35 +12 (10 Pts, +15 Paragon, +5 Inherent)
Points Unspent: 0

BAB: +17/+12/+7/+2 [+16/+11/+6/+1 Base, +1 Epic Progressing]
HP: 112[Scout]+8[Monk]+70[Dervish]+440[Con Mod]+264[Paragon]= 894
AC: 84 (10 Base, +16 Dex, +17 Wis, +12 Insight, +12 Luck, +5 Natural, +10 Deflection +2 Dervish) *+4/6 when Skirmishing*
Init: +20 (+16 Dex, +2 Scout, +2 Dervish)
Speed: 30(50 Fly, Perfect) [90(150 Fly, Perfect)]

Saves:
Fort: +49 (7 Base, +20 Con, +10 Paragon, +2 Scout, +10 Enhancement)
Refl: +53 (15 Base, +16 Dex, +10 Paragon, +2 Feat, +10 Enhancement)
Will: +45 (8 Base, +17 Wis, +10 Paragon, +10 Enhancement)

Attacks:
+7 Impaling Adamantine Ghost Strike Halberd of Speed +72 (+72/+72/+67/+62/+57 Full) (+17 BAB, +22 Str, +25 Paragon, +7 Weapon, +1 WF] to hit / 1d10+60 dmg (33[1.5xStr]+7[Weapon]+20[Paragon]) {+6d6 dmg w/Skirmish, +5 vs favoured enemies} 19-20/X3 Crit

Racial/Special Abilities:
Paragon:
*A paragon creature always has maximum hit points. Paragon creatures also gain an additional 12 hit points per HD.
*A paragon creature’s speed triples, for all movement types.
*Paragon creatures gain a +12 insight bonus to AC and a +12 luck bonus to AC. They also gain a +5 natural armor bonus
*A paragon creature makes all its attacks with a +25 luck bonus on the attack roll.
*A paragon creature gains a +20 luck bonus on damage rolls for all melee and thrown ranged attacks.
*A paragon creature’s special attacks, if any, all gain a +13 insight bonus, if applicable. The +13 insight bonus may only be applied to a given special ability once.
*Fire and cold resistance 10.
*Damage reduction 15/epic.
*Spell resistance equal to the paragon creature’s HD+26 [48].
*Fast healing 20.
*A paragon creature’s natural weapons are treated as epic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
*The paragon creature gains a +10 insight bonus on all its saving throws.
*All ability scores are 15 points higher than those of the base creature.
*The paragon creature gains a +10 competence bonus on all its skill checks.
* Feats: Same as the base creature, plus one bonus feat.
Winged:
* +4 Dex, +2 Wis, Fly = Land Speed +20 ft, Perfect Manuv.
Scout:
*Skirmish (+4d6, +4 AC)
*Blindsense 30 ft.
*Battle Fort. +2 (+2 Fort Checks, +2 Init)
*Hide in Plain Sight
*Camouflage
*Flawless stride
*Fast Movement
*Uncanny Dodge
*Trapfinding
Ranger:
*Favored Enemy[X4] (Constructs, Humans, Dragons, Undead)
*Track
*Wild Empathy
Dervish:
*Dervish Dance 3/day(+2 atk/dmg)
*Fast Move
*Spring Attack
*Dance of Death(Gain Cleave while Dancing)
*Improved Reaction(+2 Initiative)
Monk:
*Ac Bonus (Wis to AC when wearing light or no armor, +2 From Dervish)
*Flurry of Blows
*Unarmed Strike

Skills: Scout 1st (8+8)x4 Scout 2nd-14th (8+8)x14, Dervis 1st-6th(4+8)X6, Ranger 1st(6+8), Monk 1st(4+8), Human (4)= 390

Feats:
Human: Dodge [+1 Dodge Bns to AC Against Selected Foes]
Paragon Bonus: Lightning Reflexes [+2 on Reflex Saves]
Monk 1st: Stunning Fist
1st: Mobility [+4 dodge bns to AC against AoO when you move out of threatened area]
3rd: Weapon Focus (Halberd)
Scout 4th: Combat Expertise [Up to -5 to attk for +5 dodge bns to AC]
Ranger 1: Track
6th: Swift Hunter [Ranger and Scout stack for Skirmish and Favored Enemy; Skirmish dmg applies to Favored Enemies even if they're immune to Crits]
Scout 8th: Improved Skirmish [+2d6 dmg, +2 AC if moved more than 20 feet from start]
9th: Improved Favoured Enemy [+3 dmg vs favoured enemies]
12th: Prone Attack [May make attack while prone, if hits stand as free action, opponents gain no bns to me being prone]
Scout 12th: Short Haft
15th: Improved Critical (Halberd)
Dervish 3rd: Spring Attack
18th: Bounding Assault [Pick two Targets, Make two attacks w/ Spring attack]
21st[Epic]:


Equipment:

Magical Items: 2,387,745 gold left 
Tomes/Manuals:
*Str +5 137,500 gp
*Dex +5 137,500 gp
*Con +5 137,500 gp
*Wis +5 137,500 gp
*Cha +5 137,500 gp
+7 Impaling [+1] Adamantine Ghost Strike [+1] Halberd of Speed [+3] 2,880,305 gp
Wraps (Cloak) of Epic Resistance +10 1,000,000 gp
Ring of Epic Protection +10 and Universal Energy Resistance 2,462,000 gp
Torc (Periapt) of Wis +6 36,000 gp
Belt of Epic Strength and Con +12 3,600,000 gp
Winged Helm (Helm) of Teleportation and Comp. Langs and Read Magic 81,300 gp
Ring of Freedom of Movement, Feather Fall, and Sustanance 47,050 gp
Gate Key 378,000 gp
Lenses of Seeing (As Gem of Seeing) [True Seeing for up to 30 mins a day] 75,000 gp[/sblock]


----------



## Jemal (May 17, 2011)

Rathan: Couple things about your revised character


> Skills: Scout 1st (8+8)x4 Scout 2nd-14th (8+8)x14, Dervis 1st-6th(4+8)X6, Ranger 1st(6+8), Monk 1st(4+8), Human (4)= 390



The Human bonus skills are allredy added into the skill list, that's why the all have +8 (+7 int +1 human).

Also, I would suggest dropping Prone Attack (It's kinda pointless as you can Tumble to your feat as a free action anyways, since you should have a phenomenal tumble check), and take Rapid Blitz so you have a mobile attack mode if you have to fight without Dervish Dancing.

Lenses of Seeing is a no-go, the Gem is a slotless, held item, it's drawback is that you have to hold it and look through it to use it, you can't just stick it into a pair of glasses and be done.

Finally, suggestions for Epic Feat: 
Dire Charge is my first suggestion, as it would give you a way to start each encounter, before you have to decide whether or not to expend one of your Dervish Dances, and would give you one free move+Full attack if you do end up having to fight after using them all up.
The only other suggestion I have for Epic feats would be Penetrate DR for either Silver or Cold Iron.( You allready have Epic and Adamantine)


----------



## Rathan (May 17, 2011)

Is there an item that would allow me not to have to use a hand to get true seeing or even dark vision then Jemal that you know of? I don't mind paying extra for it as it seems this character weakness is his sight being mostly human and all. 

I see where you are getting at with the skill points.. I thought you were missing the 4 for first level.. but I see how those were added in now as well...


----------



## Jemal (May 17, 2011)

Dharuhk - Character looks Great, just got a couple comments/questions: 
A: What are you planning on storing in the Casters Gloves
B: Don't forget to post your race, I only figured out it was human after noticing the 'human bonus feat'.


> Full Round Attack (w/ Haste/Rapid Shot/Slashing Fury): +43x16/+38x4/+33x4/+28x4 1d4+9 Crit: 17-20 x3



C: Just checking my math here - The listed attacks are using your +5 Daggers, correct?
D: You have HD listed as 36d8 + 4d10 + 400, and HP listed as 744. My math says it should be 728.


----------



## Jemal (May 17, 2011)

Rathan - Robe of Eyes, DMG, 120,000 GP.  120' darkvision, see all forms of invisible/ethereal within 120', +10 spot/search, Uncanny dodge, can see in all directions.  Downside: Cannot avert/close eyes to avoid gaze attacks.

Shayuri - I just noticed something bad, your character has XP penalties.. 
Druid 17 / Monk 2 / Ranger (Wildshape) 5 / Master of Many Forms 10 / Warshaper 3 / Nature's Warrior 3
Prc's don't count, and human will remove your highest lvl class, but that still leaves you with: Monk 2/Ranger 5, which is 20% xp penalty.


----------



## Jemal (May 17, 2011)

BTW, Dharuhk - I just went through the MIC looking through all your items, and I just have to say THANK YOU SO MUCH for listing the pages, would've taken me way to freakin long otherwise.
TO ALL: 
I've posted up a Gallery for the character sheets.  Please post up your character there, and then just Edit it as you go.  This keeps them easier for me to find so we don't have to keep reposting or searching through this thread for them.

Also, We're planning a Test-encounter we'd like to run fairly soon to check everybody's combat capabilities.  Your characters don't have to be completely done, and I expect you may wish to revise them after the fight, that's what its for.  We'd like to run this ASAP, to give everyone (Ourselves included) an idea of relative power and effectiveness.


----------



## Shayuri (May 17, 2011)

Hmm, I missed that too. Okay then.

I can reduce Ranger to 3, and redirect those levels to Nature's Warrior. That'll reduce my Favored Enemy bonuses, but increase my AC in shift form and give me another Armament while keeping Endurance and Tracking as bonus feats. Acceptable.

Then it'll be Monk 2 and Ranger 3, which is permissible.


----------



## Jemal (May 17, 2011)

OK Fenris, Came up with some more suggestions for your character.  I'm going for DR rather than AC with this round.  I'm going to post up my take on the character, like I did with Rathans.

We're suggesting you swap out from the Greataxe & Criticals route to focus more on a Tripping/Damage dealing/Damage Soaking(DR)

My new primary suggestion is to swap your class levels to Fighter 10/Dwarven Defender 30.  You'll lose 5 nonepic feats but gain 9 DR and 3 Epic Feats.

Will post the new character shortly


----------



## Jemal (May 17, 2011)

Shayuri - At what level does the ranger alt gain wild shape? Would it still add at three levels?


----------



## Shayuri (May 17, 2011)

Well, it gains wildshape exactly as a druid does, so not until level 5. However, even druid levels previous to 5th add to effective wildshape hit dice. I don't think you actually have to reach the level where a class gets wildshape to have those levels stack with other wildshape-granting levels.


----------



## Shayuri (May 17, 2011)

I suppose I could play with feats a little and dump Ranger into Druid if need be. Let me know though, cuz that would hit me semi-hard.

But what I really want to discuss in this post is: *The Stronghold*.

I have two major designs. 

One is a stationary grove, hidden away from casual intruding. It has various ameneties; treehouses, a spring for bathing, kitchen for cooking, and a druidic circle with a dais and an altar. The dais casts Heal on anyone who stands on it. The altar casts Resurrect on a dead body placed on it. There are several menhirs, each of which has a one-way portal to various planes. The whole area is shrouded in a passworded Forbiddance, and Mind Blank.

The other is what I affectionately refer to as 'the TARDIS.' It's a relatively small stronghold in two pieces. The stronghold itself is in a demiplane, reachable only via a two-way portal that is bound to the door of a single-space structure separate from the main stronghold. This remote structure can Plane Shift and Greater Teleport. It's also almost indestructible, being made of magically strengthened Obdurium with a Wall of Force layered on top just to make sure. The portal only opens if the door is opened with the appropriate key...making it very secure.

The grove is more thematic for a character with so many druid levels...but the TARDIS is almost certainly more -useful-. 

Thoughts?


----------



## Jemal (May 17, 2011)

Allright Fenris, here's my suggestions.  I apologize for the monstrosity I have created, but I think you'll find it both enjoyable and Effective.

[sblock=Dwarfy McAwesome]
Large sized Male Dwarf
Fighter 10/Dwarven Defender 30

Str 46(+18) [18 base +9 level +5 inherent +12 Enchantment +2 size] *+4 Defensive*
Dex 26(+8)  [17 base +5 inherent +6 Enchantment -2 size]
Con 38(+14) [18 base +1 level +2 racial +5 inherent +12 Enchantment] *+6 Defensive*
Int 10
Wis 28(+9) [17 base +5 inherent +6 Enhancement]
Cha 8 [10 base -2 racial]

AC: 53 (10 + 3 dex + 9 nat + 18 armor +5 shield + 4 defender +5 Spikes -1 size)
*+6 Defensive Stance=59
Touch 22, FF 43
Damage Reduction: 51/-
Fort: + 45 (14 +14 con +10 res +10 Epic +1 luck)
Ref: +35 (6 +8 dex +10 res +10 Epic +1 luck)
Will: +44 (10 + 9 Wis +10 res +10 Epic +1 luck +4 Insight)
Hit Points: 1020 (10d10+30d12 +560 Con)
Move: 40' (50 when hasted) 60 Fly(90 Hasted)
Init: +8

Base Attack: +30
Grapple: +62
Trip: +38 (+42 to resist)

Attacks: 
MELEE:
Huge Halberd: +64/59/54/49: 3d8+46 Crit: X3  Reach: 15', Overcomes DR Epic/Adamantine/Silver
Hasted Huge Halberd: +65/65/60/55/50; 3d8+46
Defensive Stance: +2 attack, +3 damage 
RANGED:
Huge Bow: +43/38/33/28, 3d6+28 dmg, Force effect

Feats:
-------
1 Power Attack
3 Combat Expertise
6 Endurance
9 Improved Toughness
12 Improved Trip
15 Elusive Target

F1 Weapon Focus(Halberd)
F2 Dodge
F4 Weapon Specialization (Halberd) +2 damage
F6 Mobility
F8 Greater Weapon Focus (Halberd)
F10 Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing) +2 to hit, +2 damage


21 Bulwark of Defense
24 Epic Weapon Focus (Greataxe) +2 attack
27 Epic Weapon Specialization (Greataxe) +4 damage
30 Damage Reduction
33 Damage Reduction
36 Damage Reduction
39 Damage Reduction

DD13 Damage Reduction
DD16 Damage Reduction
DD19 Damage Reduction
DD22 Damage Reduction
DD25 Damage Reduction
DD28 Damage Reduction


Class Traits:
-----------------
Dwarven Defender
Defensive Stance 15/day (+4 Str, +6 Con, +4 Resistance bonus to all Saves, +6 Dodge Bonus on AC)
Damage Reduction 21/-
+4 AC Bonus
Trap sense +2
Uncanny Dodge
Improved Uncanny Dodge
Mobile Defense

EQUIPMENT
Staring Gold:  13,600,000
Current Gold: 124,260

Permanencied Tenacious Enlarge Person(CL21): 3,760 GP
Tomes: +5 Strength, +5 Dexterity, +5 Wisdom, +5 Constitution:  550,000

Mithril Full plate +10: 1,010,500
Adamantine +5 Defending Armour Spikes: 75,350
Heavy steel shield +3 Animated, Heavy Fort 100,170

Huge Halberd +11, Blur Strike(+2), Shadowstrike(+5000) 3,385,310 
Long bow +XX Str +5 Collision, Force, *+1 more Enhancements*  (bow made from the ribs bones of an ancient red dragon) 200,000 +????
Weapon Crystal: Greater Truedeath(10,000 GP)

Bracers of Awesomeness: Relentless Might + Might + Opportunity + Counterstrike + Greatreach + Reciprocal + Strongarm: 4,386,850
Steadfast Boots of Swiftness & Speed: 276,100 GP
Amulet of +9 Natural Armor/+6 Wisdom/Torc of the Titans: 1,678,950
Helm of Battle/Mindarmor 13,000 GP
Wings of Flying: 54,000 GP
Vest of Resistance +10 1,000,000
Ring of Protection +5/Universal Resistance 30:  255,000
Ring of Healing (Regeneration/Fast Healing) 435,000
Belt of Battle 12,000
Brute Gauntlets of Arcane Weaponry & Storing : 29,750
[/sblock]

OK, so a few things to go over.  
You are a large dwarf wielding Huge weapons who counts as Gargantuan for purposes of Grapple/Trip (Allready factored in).
Gave you Elusive target b/c I thought it would be interesting to have a Power-Attacking DR based character who's practically immune to Power Attack himself.  
Your DR is 51 (Extraordinary), and you have a LOT of Hp. 

Now, why did we make you a Tripper?  B/C you needed a way to get the opponents attention.  As a less-mobile tank type, you need to bring the baddies to you.  With reach and trip, you have a way of provoking them into focusing on you instead of running off chasing your speedy allies.

Just for the record, you can trip nearly anything in the MM/ELH with a better than 50% chance.  Including [sblock=THIS]





Please note those things flying around it are DRAGONS. [/sblock]

A lot of the equipment we gave you is from MIC, below is a list of the relevant items and what they do:
[sblock=EQUIPMENT BONUSES FROM MIC]
Armbands of Might: 4,100gp; +2 str checks/skills, Power attack +2 dmg(Minimum -2 atk)
Belt of Battle: 12,000 GP; 3/day: (1charge=move, 2 charge=standard,3 charge=Full)
Bracers of Opportunity: 2,300 GP; 2/day Additional AoO.
Brute Gauntlets: 500 GP; 3/day Morale bonus to Str checks/skills (1 = +2, 2 = +3, 3 = +4)
Counterstrike Bracers: 2,500 GP; 2/day Free AoO when opponent misses you in melee.
Gauntlets of Weaponry Arcane: 6,000 GP; wielded weapon overcomes DR silver&Magic
Greatreach Bracers: 2,000 GP; 3 rounds/day Extend reach by 10'
Helm of Battle: 2,000 GP; 3/day +2 Attack or Ability check for combat manuever.
Reciprocal Bracers: 5,000 GP; 2/day when crit/sneak attacked, next attack auto-threats
Steadfast boots: 1,400 GP; 2-handed weapon in hand always treated as set vs charge.
Strongarm Bracers: 6,000 GP; Wield weapons as if you were 1 size category larger.
Torc of the Titans: 3,300 GP; +5 morale bonus to str checks/skills/melee damage 3 rounds/day
Crystal Mask of Mindarmor: 10,000 GP; +4 Insight bonus to Will Saves
Weapon Crystal: Greater Truedeath: 10,000 gp; +1d6 dmg vs Undead, Can Crit Undead, Ghost Touch.

weapon enhancements:
Force: +2 enhancement; turns your projectile into a Force effect, completely ignoring DR and Incorporeal miss chance.
Blur Strke: +2 enhancement; 10/day first attack in a round strikes flat-footed AC.
Shadow Strike: +5,000 GP; 1/day add 5' to reach for single attack, target is denied dex.[/sblock]

Thoughts?


----------



## Jemal (May 17, 2011)

Shayuri - Headin to bed, but figured I'd say two things:
don't worry bout the ranger thing, I'll let it stack.
The grove is more awesome/thematic, it's got my vote, We'll find a way to MAKE it useful. .  Then again, I was never a Who fan, if the Tardis speaks to you, go for it.

Also how'd you design'em? Stronghold builders bookie thingy? I don't got that so you'll have to fill me in on any relevant details.


----------



## Fenris (May 17, 2011)

Jemal said:


> OK, first off your DR: Armour specialization and Adamantine armour won't stack with the natural armour bonuses granted by Defender and Epic Feats.  By my math your DR should be 21/Epic (12 for Dwarven Defender, +9 from 3X Epic feat)



Natch, I wasn't sure since it said it didn't stack with magic items but the DR was from the material which would imply a set of non-magical adamantine armor would stack, but no problem.



> Feats: Some suggestions could be Shield Spec/Shield Ward, and/or Slashing Fury.  Also, where are those racial feats from and what do they do?



They are from Races of Stone, the racial substituion levels for dwarf fighters. I only took two levels (1st and 8th). the levels give me a d12 HD and Kn(Dungeonerring) for that level only. It also removes the bonus fighter feat at that level giving a prescribed ability that I posted as a feat for ease since they are feat like. Axe focus gives weapon focus with all axes and the armor ones gives a +1 to using armor you specialize in.   



> If you want to increase your AC, you should invest in Combat Expertise/Improved Combat Expertise, and adding Defending to your weapon.  I'd also suggest throwing some Cross-class skill points into Tumble to increase your Defensive Fighting ability.  If you do go that route



I wasn't trying to bump up AC per se, but it is an option.



> Equipment:
> I'd suggest buying Boots of Swiftness: Double speed to help you get where you're going before activating your defensive stance, +20 tumble, and Haste 3/day for 20 rounds each(In addition to your 5 rounds/day from Blinding Speed).



That sounds cool. I was also looking for a magic item that might let me cast/use something equivalent to enlarge person several times a day. Any ideas?



> Since the adamantine won't stack for DR, I'd suggest altering your Full Plate into Mithril, to increase your Max Dex to +3.
> Also, +10 dex added onto your belt of str isn't allowed, I specified no slot-swapping, and Dex is not a 'belt-slot' item.  Beyond that, it's kinda pointless to be spending so much on it when A: You can use gloves to save half a million, and B: You don't really need an Epic enhancement to dex, you're not really using it for anything, and you easily meet your Max Dex without it.  My suggestion would be to just get the +6 from the boots of swiftness.




Gottcha. I was copying items from others since I don't know how to combine slots like that. On that point does the Max dex from armor limit DEX for everything? Ref saves, Init and ranged attacks as well as AC?



> Weapons:
> I'd drop the Flaming on your bow, b/c at this level although things aren't going to be IMMUNE to everything, there's a VERY high chance of elemental resistances, so the 1d6 fire damage won't be very useful.  I'd make similar suggestions for your Greataxe(Thundering, Shocking Burst) and Guisarme(Corrosive, Icy Burst), though it's your call.
> 
> On the other hand, I do have some suggestions that might help:
> ...



Ok, good suggestions, though the bow and guisarme weren't epic and so aren't too bad in cost. BTW what is the max strength on a strength bow?



> And finally, the most important part : Threat Generation.  You're essentially playing a defensive Tank character, but how do you plan on getting the badguys to attack you?
> The only thing I can think of off the top of my head is the Goad feat from complete Adventurer, but it's got a couple downsides.  First is that it's mind-affecting, second is that you have to be in threatened range of the target to begin with, third is that it's a Will save DC 10 + 1/2 lvl + CHARISMA (And you aren't exactly a charisma character).
> We're still working on other options.




Very important points. Part of why I wanted a bow is to engage at range. I don't plant on always using the defensive stance ability, I know that is rather limited, but i will take a look at options certainly. Heck after seeing the latest incarnation of Valkyrie, I am not sure this guy will keep up.


----------



## Shayuri (May 17, 2011)

Jemal said:


> Shayuri - Headin to bed, but figured I'd say two things:
> don't worry bout the ranger thing, I'll let it stack.
> The grove is more awesome/thematic, it's got my vote, We'll find a way to MAKE it useful. .  Then again, I was never a Who fan, if the Tardis speaks to you, go for it.
> 
> Also how'd you design'em? Stronghold builders bookie thingy? I don't got that so you'll have to fill me in on any relevant details.




I think the grove will be useful for a couple of reasons:

1) Planar nexus. I'll blow some chunks on one-way portals, letting it do some of the heavy lifting as far as carting us around the multiverse when we can't cast spells.

2) Rejuvenation. Free Heals and not-free Resurrects...again in a game sans spellcasting...are not to be sneered at.

3) Safe haven. Between mind-blank and forbiddence, the grove is extremely secure against our enemies. Unless they can find the grove mundanely in the Material Plane (and I paid for it to be remote and camoflauged) without using divinations, it should be a safe place for us to rest and recoup from grueling divine duels.

Anyway yes, using Stronghold Builder's Guide.

My first workup of the grove is 900,000-odd gp. Still need to add portals though. Operating budget of 1.4 million, so I'm in decent shape so far.


----------



## Nephtys (May 17, 2011)

I've posted an early version of my character in the RG.


----------



## Shayuri (May 17, 2011)

WIP for stronghold. Don't even bother critiquing yet, prices haven't been recalced and portals haven't been added...

[sblock=My eyes! MY EYES! The goggles! They do nothing!]
Description

Total Cost: 844,345

Temperate Forest (-10% wooden walls), Natural Feature Prohibits Normal Movement +4%, 
Hidden from Observation +5%, Lawless Area -10%

9 stronghold spaces (29,000)

2 fancy bedrooms (sleep 2 each, elevated 10'), 8k
2 fancy bedroom suites (sleeps 1 each, elevated 10'), 10k
1 fancy bath (outdoor pool/spring), 2k
1 Basic Kitchen, 2k
1 Fancy storage, 1k
2 Fancy chapel (druidic circle), 6k

Walls (18,000)
Exterior Walls (70%) - Living Wood, 12.6k

Interior Walls (30%) - Living Wood, 5.4k

Curtain Walls (120 sections) - Living Wood, 24k
- Magically Treated (bottom level outside only), 60k
- Slick (bottom and top outside only), 15k

Doors (2805)
Main Entrance - 2 Secret (DC35) Iron Doors, 1,600gp (imp arcane lock, 215gp, amazing (DC40) lock, 150gp)
Bedroom doors - 6 Strong Wooden Door, 240gp (good (DC30) locks, 480gp)
Kitchen and Storage doors - 2 Good wooden doors, 40gp (avg (DC25) locks, 80gp)

Other Stuff (695,540)
- Forbiddance (w/password) 4x, 21640
- Plant Growth (overgrow) 16x, 2400
- Bier of Resurrection, 44500
- Platform of Healing, 30000
- Chamber of Comfort (bedrooms and bath), 37,500
- Everfull Basin and Larder (in kitchen), 19,500
- Secure Chambers (9 spaces), 540,000

_______
|XXXXX|
|XOOOX|
|XOOOX|
|XOOOX|
|XXXXX|
-------

O = Stronghold space (covered by mindblank)
X = non-stronghold space between grove and walls (covered by forbiddence)
| or - = Curtain wall surrounding stronghold.[/sblock]


----------



## Fenris (May 17, 2011)

Jemal said:


> Allright Fenris, here's my suggestions.  I apologize for the monstrosity I have created, but I think you'll find it both enjoyable and Effective.




No apologies necessary. I had been considering Imp Trip originally but wasn't sure it would be effective. You answered my previous question as well about enlarge person, Had I not taken so long to finish that post I would have seen the build earlier.

[sblock=Dwarfy McAwesome]
Large sized Male Dwarf
Fighter 10/Dwarven Defender 30

Str 46(+18) [18 base +9 level +5 inherent +12 Enchantment +2 size] *+4 Defensive*
Dex 26(+8)  [17 base +5 inherent +6 Enchantment -2 size]
Con 38(+14) [18 base +1 level +2 racial +5 inherent +12 Enchantment] *+6 Defensive*
Int 14 (+2)
Wis 24(+7) [13 base +5 inherent +6 Enhancement]
Cha 8 [10 base -2 racial]

AC: 59 (10 + 3 dex + 9 nat + 18 armor +5 shield + 10 defender +5 Spikes -1 size)
*+6 Defensive Stance=65
Touch 22, FF 43
Damage Reduction: 51/-
Fort: + 45 (14 +14 con +10 res +10 Epic +1 luck)
Ref: +35 (6 +8 dex +10 res +10 Epic +1 luck)
Will: +42 (10 + 7 Wis +10 res +10 Epic +1 luck +4 Insight)
Hit Points: 1020 (10d10+30d12 +560 Con)
Move: 40' (50 when hasted) 60 Fly(90 Hasted)
Init: +8

Base Attack: +30
Grapple: +62
Trip: +38 (+42 to resist)

Attacks: 
MELEE:
Huge Halberd: +64/59/54/49: 3d8+46 Crit: X3  Reach: 15', Overcomes DR Epic/Adamantine/Silver
Hasted Huge Halberd: +65/65/60/55/50; 3d8+46
Defensive Stance: +2 attack, +3 damage 
RANGED:
Huge Bow: +43/38/33/28, 3d6+28 dmg, Force effect

Feats:
-------
1 Power Attack
3 Combat Expertise
6 Endurance
9 Improved Toughness
12 Improved Trip
15 Elusive Target

F1 Weapon Focus(Halberd)
F2 Dodge
F4 Weapon Specialization (Halberd) +2 damage
F6 Mobility
F8 Greater Weapon Focus (Halberd)
F10 Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing) +2 to hit, +2 damage


21 Bulwark of Defense
24 Epic Weapon Focus (Greataxe) +2 attack
27 Epic Weapon Specialization (Greataxe) +4 damage
30 Damage Reduction
33 Damage Reduction
36 Damage Reduction
39 Damage Reduction

DD13 Damage Reduction
DD16 Damage Reduction
DD19 Damage Reduction
DD22 Damage Reduction
DD25 Damage Reduction
DD28 Damage Reduction


Class Traits:
-----------------
Dwarven Defender
Defensive Stance 15/day (+4 Str, +6 Con, +4 Resistance bonus to all Saves, +6 Dodge Bonus on AC)
Damage Reduction 21/-
+4 AC Bonus
Trap sense +2
Uncanny Dodge
Improved Uncanny Dodge
Mobile Defense

EQUIPMENT
Staring Gold:  13,600,000
Current Gold: 124,260

Permanencied Tenacious Enlarge Person(CL21): 3,760 GP
Tomes: +5 Strength, +5 Dexterity, +5 Wisdom, +5 Constitution:  550,000

Mithril Full plate +10: 1,010,500
Adamantine +5 Defending Armour Spikes: 75,350
Heavy steel shield +3 Animated, Heavy Fort 100,170

Huge Halberd +11, Blur Strike(+2), Shadowstrike(+5000) 3,385,310 
Long bow +XX Str +5 Collision, Force, *+1 more Enhancements*  (bow made from the ribs bones of an ancient red dragon) 200,000 +????
Weapon Crystal: Greater Truedeath(10,000 GP)

Bracers of Awesomeness: Relentless Might + Might + Opportunity + Counterstrike + Greatreach + Reciprocal + Strongarm: 4,386,850
Steadfast Boots of Swiftness & Speed: 276,100 GP
Amulet of +9 Natural Armor/+6 Wisdom/Torc of the Titans: 1,678,950
Helm of Battle/Mindarmor 13,000 GP
Wings of Flying: 54,000 GP
Vest of Resistance +10 1,000,000
Ring of Protection +5/Universal Resistance 30:  255,000
Ring of Healing (Regeneration/Fast Healing) 435,000
Belt of Battle 12,000
Brute Gauntlets of Arcane Weaponry & Storing : 29,750
[/sblock]

OK, so a few things to go over.  
You are a large dwarf wielding Huge weapons who counts as Gargantuan for purposes of Grapple/Trip (Allready factored in).
Gave you Elusive target b/c I thought it would be interesting to have a Power-Attacking DR based character who's practically immune to Power Attack himself.  
Your DR is 51 (Extraordinary), and you have a LOT of Hp. 

[/quote]
All kinds of awesome. I never though to take Defender farther than 20th. A few minor quibbles I will fix. I need a 13 Int for Combat expertise. And the defender AC bonus for 30th level is +10 as I calculate it, making AC 59. The super high DR makes up for a lot. I may have name this guy Timex  Question: No cleave? With the iterative attacks probably I guess not neccesary?



> Now, why did we make you a Tripper?  B/C you needed a way to get the opponents attention.  As a less-mobile tank type, you need to bring the baddies to you.  With reach and trip, you have a way of provoking them into focusing on you instead of running off chasing your speedy allies.
> 
> Just for the record, you can trip nearly anything in the MM/ELH with a better than 50% chance.  Including [sblock=THIS]
> 
> ...



Very cool, I was worried about being about to trip very big things. But if I can trip THAT thing, well then....

Look! An Indian head nickel! *trip*



> A lot of the equipment we gave you is from MIC, below is a list of the relevant items and what they do:
> [sblock=EQUIPMENT BONUSES FROM MIC]
> Armbands of Might: 4,100gp; +2 str checks/skills, Power attack +2 dmg(Minimum -2 atk)
> Belt of Battle: 12,000 GP; 3/day: (1charge=move, 2 charge=standard,3 charge=Full)
> ...



 Thank you for this, on first read through very little of this made sense. I wasn't familiar with most of them and can read up on them. But yeah I will do those minor tweaks and find some fun stuff for the remainder of my gold. Thanks Jemal!

Oh a few more questions: Enlarge person gives me a 10ft reach, as does the greatreach bracers, shouldn't that be 20ft?

why a halberd? why not a reach weapon? And should I take shorthaft?


----------



## Jemal (May 17, 2011)

> On that point does the Max dex from armor limit DEX for everything? Ref saves, Init and ranged attacks as well as AC?



NO, Just AC.



> All kinds of awesome. I never though to take Defender farther than 20th. A few minor quibbles I will fix. I need a 13 Int for Combat expertise.



Forgot about the int 13, but thats easily fixed with an item or book.  I wouldn't suggest taking points out of anything else for it.



> And the defender AC bonus for 30th level is +10 as I calculate it, making AC 59. The super high DR makes up for a lot. I may have name this guy Timex



Dwarven defender notes that the AC bonus maxes at +4 at 10th lvl, and the Epic progression doesn't show it continuing (It only continues the Defensive stance and Damage Reduction).



> Question: No cleave? With the iterative attacks probably I guess not neccesary?



That and It needed to make way for more useful feats.



> Oh a few more questions: Enlarge person gives me a 10ft reach, as does the greatreach bracers, shouldn't that be 20ft?
> 
> why a halberd? why not a reach weapon? And should I take shorthaft?



Things that increase your reach don't just add the reaches together(10' reach+10'reach), otherwise a medium creature(5'reach) with a sword(5'reach) would have a 10' reach(?!?).  Reach increases stack by subtracting 5 (so 10' reach means it Increases your reach by 5).

The ironic part is that the listed reach I gave is still incorrect, b/c I forgot that Halberds weren't reach weapons, I thought it was and had meant to give it to you for the reach.  With a Reach Weapon your reach should be 15' (10' large + 5 Reach weapon). Greatreach would increase it a few times a day.
I would suggest going with a Guisarme if you want reach, although it can't be set against a charge like the halberd, it CAN still be used to trip. (Speaking of your trip is +2 too high, I for some reason thought the Halberd gave a +2 bonus to trip.  Apparently I was giving it FAR too much credit.. )
And no, shorthaft is not required, that's what the Armour Spikes are for.


Also, another note : All those items i listed from the MIC are allready on your character, just consolidated onto a couple items (all the bracers are on one bracer, etc, and I made the helm & mask into a single helm item.)
Oh, and the reason I gave you two gloves of storing was so you could store one weapon in each and call them forth as a free action as needed. "Huh need to shoot someone" *Bow* Oh, now they're coming close *stow bow, get halberd*  Nobody will even know what kind of weaponry you use before you pull them out, unless they've seen you fight before.


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (May 17, 2011)

Jemal said:


> Dharuhk - Character looks Great, just got a couple comments/questions:
> A: What are you planning on storing in the Casters Gloves
> B: Don't forget to post your race, I only figured out it was human after noticing the 'human bonus feat'.
> 
> ...




K, I fixed my HP, I'm planning on keeping my Rod of Invulnerabilty in one casters glove, and using the other to store my broadbladed shortsword while I'm throwing weapons so I can recall it after and not lose my AC bonus. I am Human, added that in there. I was origionally aiming for halfling but the XP penalty made it non-viable so I switched a tthe last moment. And yes thats my attack with the +5 daggers.

On a sad note, I lost telling blow somewhere along the lines so I have to ditch Polyglot to get it back. I've always liked that feat.

Oh and Fenris: Your Dwarven Defender bonus to AC does not progress at epic. Also the great reach bracers are times/day, they don't add to your reach all the time.


----------



## Jemal (May 17, 2011)

Dharuhk - Where's Telling Blow from?

Shayuri - I'm going to have to trust your math on the stronghold, don't have access to the book myself.

Neph - I'll look over it soon.

All - Don't forget to post your characters to the RG now, Not here.


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (May 17, 2011)

Telling Blow is PhBII and allows you to deal precision damage when you crit, even if you normally wouldn't have gotten to. (I.E. If you don't move but have skirmish, or if your opponent is further than 30ft out, or if they have concealment ect.).


----------



## Rathan (May 18, 2011)

Looks like I need to switch my weapon as well.. however I really don't NEED a reach weapon.. I'm nasty enough at it is... I'm thinking of just taking greatsword instead because what's more cool than a blazing fast Valkyrie 'dancing' with a sword nearly as tall as he is... with wings


----------



## Fenris (May 18, 2011)

Jemal said:


> NO, Just AC.
> 
> 
> Forgot about the int 13, but thats easily fixed with an item or book.  I wouldn't suggest taking points out of anything else for it.




Ok.



> Dwarven defender notes that the AC bonus maxes at +4 at 10th lvl, and the Epic progression doesn't show it continuing (It only continues the Defensive stance and Damage Reduction).



Uh well according to the SRD it goes to +7 at 20th level so i assumed it would continue 
Epic Prestige Class Progressions :: d20srd.org




> Things that increase your reach don't just add the reaches together(10' reach+10'reach), otherwise a medium creature(5'reach) with a sword(5'reach) would have a 10' reach(?!?).  Reach increases stack by subtracting 5 (so 10' reach means it Increases your reach by 5).
> 
> The ironic part is that the listed reach I gave is still incorrect, b/c I forgot that Halberds weren't reach weapons, I thought it was and had meant to give it to you for the reach.  With a Reach Weapon your reach should be 15' (10' large + 5 Reach weapon). Greatreach would increase it a few times a day.
> I would suggest going with a Guisarme if you want reach, although it can't be set against a charge like the halberd, it CAN still be used to trip. (Speaking of your trip is +2 too high, I for some reason thought the Halberd gave a +2 bonus to trip.  Apparently I was giving it FAR too much credit.. )
> And no, shorthaft is not required, that's what the Armour Spikes are for.




With 15' reach I probably don't need a reach weapon.



> Also, another note : All those items i listed from the MIC are allready on your character, just consolidated onto a couple items (all the bracers are on one bracer, etc, and I made the helm & mask into a single helm item.)
> Oh, and the reason I gave you two gloves of storing was so you could store one weapon in each and call them forth as a free action as needed. "Huh need to shoot someone" *Bow* Oh, now they're coming close *stow bow, get halberd*  Nobody will even know what kind of weaponry you use before you pull them out, unless they've seen you fight before.




Cool. I can't wait to give him a test run and see how the DR stands up in combat.


----------



## Rathan (May 18, 2011)

Jemal what is the DC to tumble at full speed? I know the minus', you told me -20 but what is the DC?

EDIT: Fenris... don't forget the more reach you have the more I can tumble/dance between you and your opponent. I have a feeling our characters are going to compliment each other nicely, you attract them and hit them hard, and I tear them up from all angles!

EDIT2: I really need a bit of help spending my remaining gold as well guys... any ideas based on what I got so far in the RG thread?


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (May 18, 2011)

So the AC does progress. I must have misread that.


----------



## Jemal (May 18, 2011)

> Uh well according to the SRD it goes to +7 at 20th level so i assumed it would continue



Damit, one of my ELH's is a first printing and has different wordings on things (Dharuhk that may be where you got it from also).  Checked the SRD and looks like you're right (My original print ELH is wrong about a few things).

Also, the 15' reach is assuming you DO have a reach weapon.  Without, it'd only be 10' for large, with circumstantial bonuses a couple times per day.


Rathan - There is no Base DC to Tumble, it depends on what you're doing.  There's a chart in the PHB listing the various DC's for different tumble actions.  
The most relevant one, I think, would be the DC 15/25(+2 for each enemy beyond the first) to tumble without provoking an AoO... 15 is for moving past enemies, 25 is if you move THROUGH their square.  
All tumble actions are at Half-Speed normally, if you take a -10 to your roll(Not -20 as I incorrectly stated before), you can move up to full speed, regardless of which tumble action you're attempting.  
So essentially, the DC to tumble at full speed THROUGH occupied squares is 35, +2 per enemy if you would provoke from multiple enemies.  With your tumble skill and ability to take 10, you can do it freely provided you're moving past/through no more than 8 opponents (13 if you don't go THROUGH any occupied squares)

As far as suggestions for money : Boots of Swiftness!! 20 rounds of haste 3 times per day, +6 dex, and +20 to Tumble/climb/jump/balance).  The skill bonus is competence, so it'd only add 10 to your checks (As it overlaps and does not stack with the paragon's +10 competence).


----------



## Shayuri (May 18, 2011)

Hragh, y'all

It looks like Strongholdia can have 5 one-way portals. To return to Strongholdia, we'll have to flip back to the Material Plane, then teleport close to it, then foot it, cuz a 2 way portal is a bit more expensive and would mean we only get 3 one-way portals. I'm not even sure it'd work with Forbiddance anyway.

So the question is...which 5 planes does it lead to? My personal preference is is that it leads to planes of extreme alignment like the Heavens, Hells, Abyss, Limbo and Mechanus, for example. On the other hand, Limbo and Mechanus don't have a LOT of gods camping out in them, compared to other planes, so we might want to substitute some alternatives.

I think right now I'm rooting for:

Heavens (Lawful Goodia)
Hells (Lawful Evilia)
Abyss (Chaotic Evilia)
Arcadia?? (Chaotic Goodia, forget the actual name)
Concordant Opposition (Neutralia)

The last choice is there because you can get to ANY plane from there. Another possibility would be a planar metropolis like Sigil. I'm intentionally not citing transitive planes like the Astral or Ethereal because there are other easy ways to get to those planes even without spellcasting.

I'm open to other ideas though!

Hmm...my sheet's fallen way back. Updating and reposting so I can keep tinkering...

[sblock=Shapeyshiftery]Name: FLEMETH! Nah, but really...
Human
Druid 17 (2 planar druid substitution levels) / Monk 2 / Ranger (Wildshape) 5 / Master of Many 

Forms 10 / Warshaper 3 / Nature's Warrior 3

Description: 

Str 10/24 +4 inherent +10 enh
Dex 10/26 +1 level +5 inherent +10 enh
Con 18/30 +1 level +5 inherent +6 enh
Int 16
Wis 18/40 +7 level +5 inherent +10 enh
Cha 18/30 +1 level +5 inherent +6 enh

AC: 61 (10 + 15wis +8 dex +10 nat +8 armor +10 def), Touch 43, FF 53
Fort: +43 (+23 +10con +10res)
Ref: +36 (+18 +8dex +10res)
Will: +46
Hit Points: 754/754
Move: 30'
Init: +8

Base Attack: +30

Feats:
-------
1 Alertness
1 Combat Reflexes
3 Weapon Finesse
6 Weapon Focus: Bite
9 Weapon Focus: Claws
12 Flyby Attack
15 Hover
18 Multiattack
B Tracking
B Endurance
B Improved Grappling
B Deflect Arrows

21 Exceptional Deflection
24 Infinite Deflection
27 Fast Healing
30 Improved Natural Strike (Epic)
33 Epic Prowess
36 Magical Beast Wild Shape
39 Dragon Wild Shape

Race Traits: Human
---------------
Extra Feat
Extra Skill Point
Etc

Class Traits:
-----------------
Druid
Animal Companion (Druid level 17)
Wild Empathy
Nature Sense
Woodland Stride
Trackless Step
Resist Planar Might (Planar substitution level, +2 vs abilities of outsiders)
Wildshape 5/day
Planar Tolerance (Planar substitution level, immune to planar traits)
1000 Faces
Timeless Body
DRUID POWERS!
- Natural Strike (Silver)
- Natural Strike (Good)
- Natural Strike (Cold Iron)
- Natural Strike (Adamantine)
- Natural Strike (Evil)

Ranger
Favored Enemies
- Evil Outsiders +4
- Good Outsiders +2
Track
Wild Empathy 
Endurance
Animal Companion (Druid Level 2)
Wild Shape 1/day (Small or Medium only)

Monk
Bonus Feats
- Improved Grapple
- Deflect Arrows
Flurry of Blows
Unarmed strike (1d6)
Evasion

Master of Many Forms
Improved Wildshape 16/day (gargantuan through dimunitive, up to 35HD)
- Humanoid, Monstrous Humanoid, Giant, fey, vermin, abberation, plant, ooze, elemental, dragon
Shifters Speech
Fast Wildshape
Extraordinary Wildshape
Evershifting Form (shapechanger subtype, immune to transmutations)

Warshaper
Morphic Immunities (Stuns, crits)
Morphic Weapons (+1 size level natural weapons)
Morphic Body (+4 str, +4 Con)
Morphic Reach +5'`

Nature's Warrior
- Claws of the Grizzly (+3 dmg w/natural weapons), Wilding
- caster level increase (Druid CL 18)
- Armor of the Crocadile (+3 natural armor in wildshape)

Skills 160d+50r+16m+80mmf+18w+18ng
Handle Animal 20r
Heal 20r
Knowledge: Nature 38r
Knowledge: Planes 2ccr
Knowledge: Religion 10ccr
Listen 40r
Spellcraft 18r
Spot 40r
Survival 40r
Swim 30r
Hide 17r
Move Silently 17r
Sense Motive 8r
Disguise 30r

Languages: Common, Giant, Draconic, Sylvan, Druidic

Equipment
Cash: 1.4678

Unity of Threes: Amulet of Mind, Body, and Spirit - 4.073
- +10 Natural Armor, 2mil
- +10 Epic Wisdom, 1.5mil
- +5 Mighty Fists, .225
- +6 Constitution, 54k
- +6 Charisma, 54k
- Concealment (as 3rd Eye of Conceal), .24
- Wilding Clasp

Belt of Epic Strength +10, 1mil
- Wilding Clasp

Gloves of Epic Dexterity +10 Dexterity, 1mil
- Wilding Clasp

Ring of Iron Flesh, 862
- Ironskin, .4
- Universal Greater Energy Resistance, .462
- Wilding Clasp

Ring of Reflective Force, 2.1472
- Epic Protection +10, 2mil
- Spell Turning, .147420
- Wilding Clasp

Vest of Epic Resistance +10, 1mil
- Wilding Clasp

Bracers of Armor +8, 64k
- Wilding Clasp
Boots of Teleportation, 49k
- Wilding Clasp

9 Wilding Clasps, 36k

Handy Haversack, 2k
- Wilding Clasp

Cubic Gate, 164k
- 1 Material Plane
- 2 Ethereal Plane
- 3 Astral Plane
- 4 Plane of Shadow
- 5 Plane of Neutrality
- 6 ??
Gem of Seeing, 75k

Tomes,
- +4 Strength, 110,000
- +5 Charisma, 137,500
- +5 Dexterity, 137,500
- +5 Wisdom, 137,500
- +5 Constitution, 137,500
---------------------
Preferred Shapes
---------------------
Juvenile Force Dragon (gargantuan)
60' move, Fly 300 
+36 Str, 0 Dex, +14 Con
+37 natural AC, -4 size AC, SR33, DR15/magic
Breath Weapon: 20d12 Force DC 44 in 60' cone, Fright DC37
Reach 20', Bite: 4d8+30, 2 Claws 4d6+17, 2 Wings 2d8+17, Tail 4d6+30, Crush 4d8+30, Sweep 2d8+17
Immune to Sleep, Paralysis and Force, Deflecting Force (+10), Blur (20% miss)
Blindsense 60', darkvision, low light vision

Tayella
Magical Beast (gargantuan)
100' move
+26 Str, +38 Dex, +20 Con
+15 insight AC, +7 natural AC, -4 size AC, SR34, DR10/epic
Reach 20', 2 Claws +60 4d6+21, 3 Bites +58 2d8+12, Sting +57 3d8+12+poison (DC49, 2d10Con)
Pounce, Improved Grab, Rake 4d8+21[/sblock]


----------



## Jemal (May 18, 2011)

Does the stronghold book have an option for Sigil?
Also please post the Character sheet to the rogue's gallery, even if it isn't done, so I can easily compare them all in the same place.  I too am tinkering with things.


----------



## Shayuri (May 18, 2011)

The Stronghold book has prices for portals in general. 100k for one-way, 150k for two-way. Where the portals actually lead is up to the creator of the portal, and approval from the GM.

I was thinking that, if there was a Sigil portal, it was 'naturally occurring,' and was the reason this grove was made at this location.

But of course Sigil portals aren't one-way...so perhaps that is nonsensical...


----------



## Jemal (May 18, 2011)

Shayuri - the info on Sigil states that "Most of sigils portals require a command word or special key in order to make them function."  The same could be true of the portal from Strongholdia.

As far as aligned planes, If you're looking for the extremes of good and evil, there are six planes to focus on:
Infinite layers of the Abyss = CG
Grey waste of Hades = Most Evil Plane
Nine hells of Baator = LE
Seven Heavens of Celestia = LG
Blessed Fields of Elysium = Most Good Plane
Olympian Glades of Arborea = CG

Hades and Elysium are actually the 'pinacles' of Good and Evil as far as the great wheel is concerned. (Just FYI, I would not suggest heading there unprepared)

We'll also be using planes outside of the Great Wheel (though I'm not going to allow you to start with portals to them), and much fighting will probaly happen on the Prime Material (It's the primary warground, hence why you're all trying to stop them from wrecking the joint) unless you guys decide to push into the outer planes right away.


----------



## Shayuri (May 18, 2011)

Oh yes...the portals will be keyed. I wouldn't want someone stumbling through one by mistake. 

My hope with the grove is dual...provide a place where we can rest and recover after tough battles, and provide a staging ground for when we're ready to take the war to the planes. Since moving to the Outer Planes is difficult without spells, a stronghold with portals (or that can plane shift) seems in the cards.

Six planes, eh?

HMMM

I wonder if I can afford six portals if I redo things a little.

Or maybe a portal to Sigil (with your permission) is all we need, and I can save a bundle. 

Or a portal to Outlands...you can get to other Outer Planes from there, if you don't mind some travel time...


----------



## Jemal (May 18, 2011)

Hey Shayuri, could you post up what you've got for the stronghold so far? (I assume it's changed some since your last post)  I have an idea that I'd like to run by you, but I want to see what you're trying to get out of the stronghold first.

(Basically I'm considering the two of us just working together to come up with a Druidic Grove - Magical Location/Stronghold that will help both of us out for a reasonable price.


----------



## Rathan (May 18, 2011)

Shay.... two things... 

1.) If Jemal allows it I will have some extra cash on me as I plan on only purchasing a couple more things with my over 2 mil left to spend. I could toss you some for the portals if need be. 

2.) I have a gate key from the SRD allowing me to create up to sixty 2 way portals with it I do believe. If we need more I can create them once we get in game.


----------



## Shayuri (May 18, 2011)

I've updated my last post to keep it current actually. Though it might be hard to "see" how it looks from the raw data from the Builder's Guide.

Basically, in the middle of a large, thick forest, there's a place where the vegetation abruptly becomes impassable, forming a 'wall,' that's 100 feet per side, and 20' tall. It doesn't look like "hey, here's a wall" though. It's more that the forest growth gets tanglier and thicker until all you have in front of you is a mass of tree and brush that cannot simply be pushed through. The outward facing portion of this is also very slick and perpetually moist, making it hard to climb (DC31).

Beyond the wall is about 20 feet on all sides of just rough grass and meadow.

The stronghold consists of several discrete "structures," not all of which are artificial. Each bedroom or bedroom suite is actually on the second 'story' of a large tree; braced on heavy branches and the trunk. The 'bath' is a pool of water replenished by an artisan spring and surrounded by artful placement of rocks and cushions for sunning or just relaxing. There is a longhouse style building on the ground not far from the spring where meals are preapredand various supplies are stored. The living trees, kitchen and pool form a kind of 'U" shape around a druid circle of standing stones. The portals, if any, will form in the spaces between those stones. A stone dais in the center heals whoever steps barefoot upon it (Heal spell). The altar upon the dais can bring back to life a body placed on it as long as the appropriate amount of diamonds are used as 'bedding.'

From the air, the stronghold just looks like a bunch of trees in a meadow. A normal sight. The branches spread out over the circle and structures.


----------



## Jemal (May 18, 2011)

Allright, I have an offer to make you : 

I'm willing to give you a very similar Druids Grove with a few changes, and a custom portal.

Rather than doors from the outer walls, the area has no visible entrance and is accessible only by beings with the Woodland Stride ability, and any they allow access to.

I don't particularily like the Heal/ressurect abilities.  Instead, I'd be willing to give the entire area the a Life-Dominant trait: Accounting for abundant plant growth and increasing the natural healing of all living creatures.  Creatures heal in one hour as if they had rested for a day(Including Ability damage).  Non-magical Fast-Healing or Regen is doubled.  Any ongoing effects such as Poison/Disease/Negative levels that require saves are made at a +10 while in the grove.

In addition, As to the portals, I'd give you a single discounted portal at the center where you currently have the 'altar'.  It's this portal that the grove was centered around, built by powerful druids and neutral deities, against just such a war as is happening now.  The portal is one way and leads to all of the Aligned planes, Cycling between them one per hour. (Abyss, Carceri, Hades, Gehenna, Baator, Celestia, Bytopia, Elysium, Beastlands, Arborea).
The portal can be forced to focus on a specific plane, this attempt requires expenditure of a Wild Shape.  The portal stays focused on the appropriate plane for a number of rounds equal to the users Druid Level, after which it returns to its normal order.
Any creature passing through the portal is protected from the Alignment based trait of the destination plane for one day.

What do you think?


----------



## Shayuri (May 18, 2011)

Hmm! Is the area still protected by Forbiddance/Mind Blank?

Or equivalents.

Necessary to prevent the area from being scried or Discerned, and then subject to never-ending waves of teleporting minions. 

If so, you gots a deal!


----------



## Jemal (May 18, 2011)

Shayuri - Equivalents yes, but I don't want a stronghold that's COMPLETELY impregnable.  For the time being, it cannot be located or entered except by Druids, though depending on how the campaign goes and how the divine powers shift, they may try coming after you directly, and divine powers would overcome pretty much any defenses eventually.

Also, as your original listed cost was ~840,000, and portals normally cost 100,000 for a one way, I'm going to tentatively suggest a price of 1 million GP for the Grove as I detailed it.  Does that sound fair to you?

Also, Any Player may contribute to it, whether they know you IC or not.  (It's not their character contributing to yours, just that they have less 'wealth' than normal, but will all gain the benefits of the grove eventually so it'll even out)


----------



## Shayuri (May 18, 2011)

Oh it's far from impregnable even if it has Mind Blank and Forbiddance.

For one, Forbiddance allows a save, which at this level is a forgone conclusion. The real purpose of the spell isn't to keep folks out, it's to stop teleports...it's one of the few spells that can do that. The teleport-stopping function doesn't allow a save either...but you can still teleport right next to it and then walk in.

Mind Blank is tougher, but it doesn't stop anyone from going in...it just makes it hard to find. No other spell can stop Discern Location, so no other spell will work. (Special GM conditions notwithstanding, of course).

Not even Mind Blank will stop Divine Remote Sensing however, so even in the stronghold we'd have to be very careful not to speak a deity's name...one of the ways that a god could suddenly find the grove visible to him. Another way would be to have someone offer up worship within the area, or to perform Portfolio-related acts of sufficient magnitude.

HOWEVER

For simplicity's sake, as long as the place is "protected" against discovery and intrusion, then it's worth the 1 million. To give an idea of the pricing...the mind blank effect alone costs 540,000gp on the design I had come up with. I'd be fine with a less-specific protection as long as it was comparable in power level. And bearing in mind that I never assumed that the grove would go the whole game without being discovered and assaulted. Defenses aside, what's the fun in that?


----------



## Rathan (May 19, 2011)

Made some minor changes to my character.. mostly to my weapon of choice and it's abilities... but other than than a few things tied to dex because of boots of swiftness...

also.. I still have over 2 million to spend and have no idea what to spend it on :/... any more suggestions all?


----------



## Jemal (May 19, 2011)

2 million? By gygax what've you bought? (Or not bought)

Well, went over your equipment list to double check the prices and added some suggestions: 
[sblock=Valkyrie Items]
These items are right/stay the Same: 
Stat Books: Str +5, Dex+5, Con+5, Wis+5, Cha+5: 687,500 GP
Wraps (Cloak) of Epic Resistance +10 1,000,000 gp
Torc (Periapt) of Wis +6 36,000 gp
Ring of Freedom of Movement, Feather Fall, and Sustenance 47,050 gp
Gate Key 378,000 gp
Goggles of Draconic Vision [pg 107 MIC] (Low Light/Darkvision 60 ft.) 16,000 gp

Changes: 
+10 Vicious [+1] Adamantine Ghost Strike [+1] Glaive 2,880,305 gp
_*You forgot the +3000 for adamantine*_

Ring of Epic Protection +10 and Universal Energy Resistance 2,462,000 gp
_*Ring of Universal Resistance 30 is only 180, so the price on this was wrong (180X1.5=270K +2mil = 2.27Mil*_

Belt of Epic Strength and Con +12 3,600,000 gp
_*Why not just buy Bracers of Relentless Might? They do the same thing plus make you count as 2 size categories larger for Combat Effects, and cost 4,384,000*_

Wraps (Cloak) of Epic Resistance +10 1,000,000 gp
_*Add +6 Charisma for 54,000.  Epic characters should have the basic+6 enhancment to every stat unless money's really tight. (Which is not the case for you)*_

Winged Helm (Helm) of Teleportation and Comp. Langs and Read Magic 81,300 gp
_*Add +6 Int for 54,000*_

Boots of Swiftness (+6 Enh to Dex, Doubles Speed, Evasion, Jump not Limited, +20 comp bns to Balance, Climb, Jump, Tumble, 3/day Haste (Lasts 20 rounds)) 256,000 gp
_*Add Slippers of Spider Climbing for +7,200, b/c.. it's useful to be able to walk up walls, even if you can fly.
Also Add Speed for 18,000.  The Haste bonus from Speed is only 10 rounds/day, but it's non-consecutive and a free action, in addition to the 3/day 20 rounds that the swiftness gains, and the 3/day 15 rounds you get from Paragon, both of which require a standard action to activate.*_

I would also suggest Robe of Eyes for 120' all-encompassing sight and effectively Improved Uncanny Dodge: 120,000GP

With those Changes, you would be at 307,645 GP.
[/sblock]


----------



## Rathan (May 20, 2011)

Made the changes Jemal... I just need to make myself a stat block for combat purposes and such and I'm ready to go.. both for the game and the play-test!

EDIT: I should be all set for inspection Jemal... plus if there's anything not in the stat block that should be.. let me know ok?


----------



## Jemal (May 21, 2011)

Allright, I'm gonna do another once over of all the characters that've been posted so far before the play test, I was hoping to start it this week, so here's the question: 

Who feels they would be ready to combat test their character soon?

Keep in mind, as I mentioned before, that your character doesn't need to be 100% finished, and you'll have a chance afterwards to make any changes that you realize you need after the fight.

I would like responses ASAP so I can get the fight post set up knowing which PC's will be there for round 1.


----------



## Jemal (May 21, 2011)

First up: Nephtys, Others to come later (Probably not right away)
I don't know much about Marshal, But I did find This link, I presume that's the one you're using?.  If so, I'd ask you not to, I don't particularily like some of those bonuses, especially being party-wide.
My suggestions to replace it would be: fighter 2(+1BAB, bonus feat), Monk 2(+1BAB, Evasion and either Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows), Barbarian (+1BAB, +10 NON-Enhancment speed and rage), Exemplar(Skill Mastery for 10 skills), Horizon Walker(various useful abliities).
Or you could start looking forwards, and figuring out how you want this character to progress, perhaps taking levels to get yourself towards pre-reqs on something you want but can't have yet, or the first level of a class you want a higher level ability of.

HD: Your racial HD for the troll are Dragon HD b/c of Half-dragon, so 
they should be D12's with Full BAB, 6 skills/lvl, and good all saves.
*The following math leaves out your last, unknown level
BAB 13 (12 Troll + 1 Fgtr)
Fort: 49 (8WT+27con+10insight+2fighter+2monk)
Ref: 40 (8WT+20dex+10insight+0fighter+2monk)
Will: 38 (8WT+18wis+10insight+0fighter+2monk)

Skills: 266 *I don't count Inherent bonus before start of campaign until 20HD, so you won't get it the bonus skills for it until you level up in game*



> Feats: 1,3,6,9,12,15 +1 bonus(paragon) +1 bonus(fighter)
> 1: Power Attack*#¤
> 3: Improved Sunder#
> 6: Improved Bull Rush¤
> ...



First off, why so many Symbols? *#¤?
Secondly, why Great Fort? +2 fort save is not exactly all that useful, I'd suggest finding something else
Power Lunge : Where'd they update this? Only place I've ever seen it is Swords and Fist, which is 3.0

As for the rest of it, you still need an Equipment list before we can figure out how the numbers stack up to the others.


----------



## Rathan (May 21, 2011)

I think my character is ready to go Jemal... for the play test anyways....


----------



## Shayuri (May 21, 2011)

Jemal, regarding the changes to a creature due to half-dragon's type change...you're not quite right. Here's the rule from the SRD:

*Size and Type*: The creature’s type changes to dragon. Size is unchanged. _Do not recalculate base attack bonus or saves._

*Hit Dice*: Increase base creature’s racial HD by _one die size_, to a maximum of d12. Do not increase class HD.

You're right about the skills, but only for racial hit dice...which I think is what you were talking about anyway.


----------



## Jemal (May 21, 2011)

and here I thought dragon type meant dragon type.  silly me.


----------



## Nephtys (May 22, 2011)

Jemal said:


> First up: Nephtys, Others to come later (Probably not right away)
> I don't know much about Marshal, But I did find This link, I presume that's the one you're using?. If so, I'd ask you not to, I don't particularily like some of those bonuses, especially being party-wide.
> My suggestions to replace it would be: fighter 2(+1BAB, bonus feat), Monk 2(+1BAB, Evasion and either Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows), Barbarian (+1BAB, +10 NON-Enhancment speed and rage), Exemplar(Skill Mastery for 10 skills), Horizon Walker(various useful abliities).
> Or you could start looking forwards, and figuring out how you want this character to progress, perhaps taking levels to get yourself towards pre-reqs on something you want but can't have yet, or the first level of a class you want a higher level ability of.
> ...




Shayuri is right and that's the way I did it too. I would have prefered your interpretation, though.

For a character with so much LA and such high abilities I naturally want to pick classes that make the most of the ability scores in the few levels I have to work with. Barbarian (without the alternate class feature of Pounce) adds very little to the build. Fist of the Forest would have made my AC too high, Swashbuckler int to damage only works against crittable enemies (so probably not most) and would take 3 levels but Marshal (in the link) adds very nicely to my damage in one level.
I don't know about exemplar and Horizon walker, so I'll go take a closer look.
I'll change the skills.
Great Fort, I don't really know. It's probably a remnant from an earlier build, a prereq or bonus that's no longer needed.
The *#¤ are mostly there for my benefit so I could trace the feat prerequisites when I built the character to help me see which feats I need for the feats I want.
Power Lunge comes from Ghostwalk.
--
The Exemplar I found required clerical spellcasting. That can't have been the one you suggested, so where is yours?


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (May 23, 2011)

btw, I'm ready for they playtest Jemal.


----------



## Shayuri (May 23, 2011)

I still have over 400k gp to spend...but I'm not sure what else I need. 

Jemal, I know it's a PITA, but if you'd take a look at my stuff and see fit to make some suggestions, I'd be much obliged. I've combed through MIC, but aside from a few more "immunities," which I'm avoiding, I didn't see a whole lot that seemed attractive. 

Anyone, any thoughts?


----------



## Rathan (May 23, 2011)

My character now has a character history Jemal and all... feel free to mull it over for plot ideas....


----------



## Jemal (May 23, 2011)

Neph - The Exemplar I suggested is from Complete Adventurer, it's a skill-based class.
Ghostwalk from what I've been able to find is a 3.0 source, like sword and fist.


Shay - I'll give it a go.


----------



## Jemal (May 23, 2011)

Side note - 
Fenris, I found one more feat you may wish to add that will help very much in keeping enemies focused on you : 

It's called Stand Still - When a foe provokes an AoO via Movement, you may choose to attempt to stop him.  This works like a normal attack, but if you hit, then instead of dealing damage the opponent makes a Reflex Save (DC 10+your Damage roll).  If he fails, he stops where he provoked the Attack, and is treated as though he had used up his movement action for that round.

It's from Expanded Psionics, though it's got nothing to do with psionics (Weird book)


----------



## ishalleatyourflesh (May 24, 2011)

Hey peeples! jemal i was wondering if you had room for a tiny little baby white dragon... by the name of Aussir? The build is white wyrmling(3hd +2LA) +3 half red dragon, +3 half copper dragon, + 3 half bronze dragon, 7 barbarian 8 fighter 10 frenzy bezerker and 1 assasin. he's tiny... really tiny... and my strength would be ...82 ... about. i'd be using an assortment of miny weapons, mostly for comidic effect and the confound the big folk/giant bane feats... he can bench press about 3 million pounds.... fly with 1 million... and has the personality of a kobold that finaly got his wish...


----------



## Jemal (May 30, 2011)

Ishalleatyourflesh - As I allready told you offline, you're welcome to join, but try to get that sheet in soon if you want in on the test.

Everybody : 
Well It's been about a week without any activity, We're ready for the test phase on this end.  How's it coming for everybody else?

So far I've got Nephtys, Dharuhk, Rathan, and Shayuri in the RG seeming ready for the test combat.

I'll give another quick lookover them while we're setting it up.  

To anybody still working on it, if you want in on the test run, you'll have to get your character sheet in ASAP.  I want to start the encounter in the next couple days.


----------



## Shayuri (May 30, 2011)

Lets go ahead and try a test. I still have 300 thousand-odd gp to spend, but it might be wise to try a sample fight or two and see what needs shoring up before blowing it.


----------



## Rathan (May 30, 2011)

I agree.. I got a little bit more to spend... I might pick up an intelligent item of some sort....  but before I do I want to see where I am weak and where I might be a bit too strong lol...


----------



## Jemal (Jun 1, 2011)

Thursday's the day, ladies and gents. (er.. do we have any ladies in the crowd?)

Anyways, I'll be posting up the Test Start on Thursday, and I'll post a link to it here when I do so.  

Rathan, Shayuri, Dharuhk you're all in.
Nephtys, you're good to go if you want, though I'd suggest throwing some gear on, your troll's half nekked. (PS, Nephtys, I also sent you a PM.)

Fenris, haven't heard anything from you in a while, but your characer looked pretty well done last I saw of it, if you'd like in, please say so and post it to the RG by thursday and I'll throw you in.
Ishalleatyourflesh, same thing - If you can get it posted in time for me to give it a once over, you're in too (I generally trust your character gen skills)



Did I miss anybody btw?  Rathan, Shayuri, Nephtys, Dharuhk, Fenris, Ishalleatyourflesh..


----------



## Rathan (Jun 3, 2011)

Jemal? We doing this today or are you holding off?


----------



## Jemal (Jun 3, 2011)

Twas supposed to be today, but I been feeling kinda 'bleh'.  I'll load the IC soon as I can, might take another day though, Sry bout the delay.


----------



## Jemal (Jun 6, 2011)

Hey all, sorry bout the continued delays, Been feeling bad the last while, and staying up 30+ hours for the comic convention Saturday didn't help.
Was freaking awesome, but not for my health.
Will post the test start as soon as I'm feeling up to it.


----------



## ishalleatyourflesh (Jun 7, 2011)

Okay, sorry for the wait i'm in and up, its not completed and i'm not exactly sure how much money i spent, i'll look in to that soon but my base stats are there... i probly screwd something up, a little hasty sketch it is


----------



## Shayuri (Jun 7, 2011)

I took a look at it...and...erm...

Okay, I guess first off, conceptually the character makes no sense. It's a wyrmling, barely out of the egg, and it's got 29 levels? And it fights with...a pair of katanas. And...okay, here's what REALLY I don't get. Three half-dragon templates. On a dragon. I...that's FOUR HALVES. That's the equivalent of two whole dragons, of four colors, in one dragon. I realize that nothing in the template says you can't take it more than once but...come on. Really. 

Mechanically there's some oddities. Not sure if they're illegal or if I just don't know the rules for them, so I'll just run down the list real quick. First, the +26 Iron Tailband thingy. +26? Really? I'm _pretty_ sure attribute boosting items in the game have specific limits on how high they can go. Even at epic levels, +12 seems to be the limit. I may be wrong on this...but I'd like to see chapter and verse if so. 

Secondly, you've got  +6 enhancement bonuses listed to several attributes, but I don't see the items that grant them listed in your inventory. 

Thirdly, did you include the extra costs for size and nonhumanoid when pricing that mithral breastplate?

Fourthly, your movement rates seem very high for a wyrmling. You've got a ground speed of 140, flight of 300, swim of I assume from one of the half-dragon templates and burrow from the same, but both seem much higher than the templates grant. White wyrmlings have a base ground speed of 60. Flight of 150. So where's the speed coming from? Grafts? 

Fifthly, your breath save DC is way too high. Class levels don't count. Racial hit dice do. Your DC is 10 + 14 (con bonus + 1 (1/2 racial hit dice) = 25. That goes for your half-dragon breaths too.

Sixthly, you're using...katanas. Two of them. A katana is basically a bastard sword, and a Tiny bastard sword does 1d6 damage, not 1d8. Also, a corollary; you don't have the Two Weapon feats. So...I dunno why you're using two katanas, or where all those attacks are coming from. You do realize you can't use both your BAB iteratives AND your draconic natural attacks, right? You have to pick one or the other. I'm also trying to figure out what combination of bonuses raises your static melee damage bonus to +78 before raging.

Seventhly, your natural armor bonus seems high. Wyrmling whites get +2. If you stack the +4's from your half dragon templates, that's another +12. Pop on the +5 from the amulet, that's +19 total. You've got +24 listed. Where's the other 5 coming from?

Remember that you have to specify which kind of DR your Penetrate DR epic feat applies to. It only works against one type.

Is Fast Heal from a class or an item? This isn't a criticism, I'm just curious.


----------



## ishalleatyourflesh (Jun 7, 2011)

ya there are peoples, 

first off, i should have posted the back story, this is a remake of Aussir, he's a standard character i use, the one u may or may not have saw was from jemals school campain, he was a koblod that thought he was a baby white dragon, he's been ... "reincarnated" as a white wyrmling, with a few other things... he now thinks he's a baby prismatic dragon. as to the 4 halves, his mother was red and copper his father white and bronze, 4 halves from 2 sources makes quarters he only uses 1 katana, the second one is for non living things, there are no limits after epic for items, other then what u can afford, or the dm says. also how old is your character? a wyrmling can be a few years old and they start far more intlegent then humans do, no wasted child hood, from the day he hatched he could have been learning, thou its not to hard to learn how to be a barbarian

secondly the items:... i was missing con and wis, dex comes from the boots, i should have mentioned i was using an epic charater has these items base when i made the stats and forgot to write them down, gear really takes the longest i don't really feel like more math now

thirdly smaller armour reduces cost, inhuman reases, tiny means they equal.... and i just noticed it says divide armour bonus by 2 that lowers my ac slightlyi'ma gonna change it to a mitheral chain shirt cause the armour is rounded down it actually increases my ac cause of dex

fourthly the speed comes from boots of swiftness, the epic item every one should have, +6 to dex of ther miner bonuses, and 2x all movment speeds

fifthly, the dc is high, most breath weapons i've used just state hit dice, i've mostly used them from other sources, first time haveing a character that actually has one and class levels

sixthly, i'm only using 1 katana at a time 4 attacks for +20 BaB and a sacondary bite, the second string off attacks is proseded by the word "frenzy" as in when the frenzied berzerker goes nuts, 4 BaB attacks, 1 exrta attack from frenzy and secondary. a katana is a master work bastard sword so exotic weapon proff lets u use a bastard in 1 hand rather then 2, the sizing lets me pick a size for the weapons and the strong are bracers lets me use small weapons no penalty, i can use 2x my str bonus when weilding a 1 hand exotic weapon , the bastad sword, in 2 hands instead of 1.5 and u can use both Bab and natural attacks the natural attacks must be made with the free limb so no claws cause i'm using weapon 2 handed but his mouth is free i could even use the armour spikes as a second weapon, would only get a 1 attack thou and all attacks would be at -6, ...not gonna, they there for the ac

seventhly a graft the +5 plating

eightly the pen dr from the epic book, adds +2 to the weapon's enhancement for perpus of dr, its 3.0 remember, that means with +4 weapons i penetrat epic dr

ninthly fasthealing is a graft: healing blood

tenthly i forgot the saves

i did this all as a quick throw stuff at it till it works, don't worry the character will make sense... in it's own way when i RP it. this is in no way completly finished, and not even remotly done being twinked, but that is what the acid test jemal plans is for.


----------



## Shayuri (Jun 7, 2011)

Hm...other than the abject goofiness of a tiny little dragon wielding a katana in its two front paws (they're quadrupeds, how does it stand??) I thank you for the clarifications.

Honestly, I still personally disagree with your interpretation of the templates. There's no such thing as a "quarter dragon" template. Furthermore, the whole point of the half-dragon template is that it represents a creature who otherwise lacks draconic qualities that has been crossbred with a dragon...thus gaining some enhanced abilities. What you're doing would be like taking the Half-Fiend template with a succubus and saying she was half marilith. A demon is a demon is a demon. A dragon is a dragon is a dragon. A cross-color dragon, if that's even possible, wouldn't have a template...it'd just be a whole new type of dragon, with age progression and abilities like its parents.

Again, my take. Jemal may disagree.

As for Penetrate Damage Reduction, there's a 3.5 version of the feat in the SRD. You can't cherry-pick 3.0 versions of stuff just because you like them better. Here's the feat as it exists now:

*PENETRATE DAMAGE REDUCTION [EPIC]*
Select a special material, such as adamantine.

*Benefit*: The character melee weapons (including natural weapons) are treated as being crafted from the chosen special material for the purposes of bypassing the damage reduction of any creature the character strikes. None of the other special properties of special materials are gained by the character’s melee weapons.

*Special*: A character can gain this feat multiple times.  Each time the feat is selected the character selects a different special material.  The character’s melee attacks are treated as being crafted of all chosen materials for the purposes of bypassing damage reduction.


----------



## ishalleatyourflesh (Jun 7, 2011)

you every see those "GET IT OFF! GET IT OFF!" moments? thats aussir in a nut shell.

Yes dragons are quadrupeds they are how ever shown to have full manual dexterity with their front limbs and who said i stood? i have 300 perfect flight. yes there are some things odd about several half dragons templetes on the same creature, however there are no limits on halfdragons. think of it as cross breeding experiments and no there are no such things as "just dragons" the half fiend gives no a static bonus, u are not half succubus, half pit fiend u are half fiend. with dragons u pick what dragon type u are. if dragons start to interbreed then the off spring will have traits from each parent. its for that reason i belive that the templete does not say "any non-dragon".... and for the half fiend u could too... as they say, " A wizard did it." as to the feat i'm not picking or choosing, i have never looked at the epic srd, i have access to the book so i didn't need it. should he dissagree i'll take the feat back spend a little more coin once i figure out what i spent... and get +6 weapons and another epic feat(i can use more damage), i'm short as it is with +11 LA, it is still using the same premise it's just not a material i'm picking, and with out a +4 weapon it's usless, i don't pen material dr only X/epic


----------



## Shayuri (Jun 7, 2011)

Alright, well, any further issues are rightfully betwixt you and the GM.


----------



## ishalleatyourflesh (Jun 8, 2011)

speaking of which... alo? alllllllooooooooooooo? HEY JEMALLY!
no alo....


----------



## Jemal (Jun 9, 2011)

Flesh - hush you, dont you read posts? I haven't been feeling well. 

Anyways,
First off : Feeling better now, will be posting up the Acid test asap, and again sorry for the delays (Especialy after I was the one pushing for it to start last week)

Second: Anybody heard from Nephtys?  He hasn't been on ENWorld since May.

Now, as to fleshy's character: 
First, Thanks Shayuri for bringing everything up so a lot of it got explained allready.    And feel free to keep commenting, I like knowing what my Players think about rulings / other characters.
I'll go over a couple of the things you guys talked about, everything else looks like it's been addressed: 


Pen DR - I posted about this earlier in the thread, page three:


			
				TheAllMightyME said:
			
		

> Ordinarily no, b/c the new Penetrate DR is MATERIALS only, but I'm going to use a bit of a combination between the ELH Pen DR and the new version.
> New version works as normal (Pick a material each time) but if you want to Pen Magic or Epic DR, you have to use the ELH version (Adds +2 to your effective weapon's magic rating to determine whether it pens DR). If you have something like Ki Strike that allows you to beat DR/Magic allready, that counts as a +2 effective enhancement, so you would need Pen DR 2X to beat Epic DR. (Or a +4 weapon and the feat once)




Multiple Half-dragons - It does work mechanically, though yes it's a bit cheesy.  I allowed it b/c I liked his concept and it's the only way to play a multi-colored dragon.

Age/Levels - Wyrmlings can be up to 5 years old, and as he said, Dragons are highly intelligent, he could've started training right out of the shell (And from what I understand of the backstory, he was born in a place where they have a tendency to do just that).  I'm OK with it.
Also, not all  Epic characters are epic b/c they've been training for decades, some people/beings are just innately powerful, naturally(or unnaturally as the case may be) good at what they do.  
So long as the backstory is fitting, I don't really care how old a character is.  
Remember the Rule of Cool

Magic Items - The ELH actually specifically states under Weapons and Armour that they are only examples, and there is no upper limit to the bonus they can give at Epic, I've always assumed the same applied to everything, so long as you're willing to spend the outrageous amounts of money high epic items can cost.  This is the first i've ever heard of someone thinking the examples in the ELH are set in stone. 
Isn't the point of Epic to go beyond the limits?


I still gotta go look over the sheet myself, but In the mean time, I'm gonna go start up the test thread.


----------



## Shayuri (Jun 9, 2011)

So be it. You're the GM.


----------



## Jemal (Jun 9, 2011)

post got ate and then a friend came over.  Redoing now.


----------



## Jemal (Jun 9, 2011)

yay, got it up.  OG now.

Combat Test


----------



## ishalleatyourflesh (Jun 10, 2011)

Shayuri i got a question... how do u turn in to a juvenile force dragon? at 35 hd they are 10 hd above your wild shape, unless you found a errata on master of many forms that lets u add it to your effective druid level for wild shape ... or Jemal let you. I was just wondering because i've had that problem with a character myself. i want the master of many forms for the ability to change into different things but chaffed at my inabilty to change into higher hd monsters.


----------



## Shayuri (Jun 10, 2011)

There's no errata needed. Master of Many Forms -does- add onto your effective druid level for the purposes of Wild Shape hit dice.


----------



## ishalleatyourflesh (Jun 10, 2011)

1 i just started to read the begining post again and jemal seems to think it does.

2 at no place anywhere in MoMFs is it mentioned. naturs warrior does, but MoMFs gains inproved Wild shape which is a different ability. it's like a prestige class that lets u do some neat things with spells but doesn't actually increase caster level. not that i'm saying wild shape is based off caster level, but using that as an example and speaking of example

3 in complete adventure the sample MoMFs is 5druid/2MoMF and can wild shape for 5 hours not 7

i agree as a player that it sucks, sucks badly and if i had remembered that jemal thinks it does i would not have mentioned it, but at the same time it's not making u stronger at it just better skilled the same way a lot of spell casting prestige classes don't give full casting

i would ask jemal to ignore me on these matters and forget i said anything


----------



## Shayuri (Jun 10, 2011)

Works for me.


----------



## ishalleatyourflesh (Jun 10, 2011)

YAY!... now post on the acid test, then we will have 3/5 pc's started
sorry my bad i thought we had only 4 people in the gallery sorry
also jemal can i have a mod'd bag of holding, i'll pay extra, i don't care about the wieght but could i have it sized for me with a VERY strechy opening? also i staked some pipes together ro make some really wicked pipes


----------



## Jemal (Jun 10, 2011)

No, the MoMF doesn't stack by RAW, but I've always thought that was stupid, so it does stack in my little corner of the universe.

Flesh - What do you mean by sized for you with a very stretchy opening?  Gimme details before I say yes.


----------



## Jemal (Jun 10, 2011)

Well, Nephtys hasn't been on for weeks, if he shows up then yay, but I'm going to go ahead under the assumption he's out for a while.
So, just waiting on Dharuhk.


----------



## ishalleatyourflesh (Jun 10, 2011)

i really just want a bag i can carry sized for me that i can use normally, like medium sized objects... you know incase i ever want to loot a statue.... also it'll be kinda like my home...i'll have a little bed and everything


----------



## Jemal (Jun 11, 2011)

Sure, but if somebody closes it up and carries you away in your sleep, not my fault.


----------



## ishalleatyourflesh (Jun 11, 2011)

is a grapple check of 53 a bad thing? should i be worried? keep in mind i can't grapple any thing bigger then a human becaue of my size


----------



## ishalleatyourflesh (Jun 11, 2011)

so what would it cost me get an epic bag of holding? i'm asking cause i've had a funny idea, i was looking in the strong holders guide, just for fun... and i was wondering what it would caost to build something1/16 the size so it would be built for me, problem is a strong hold space is 20x20x10 feet so..4000 cubic feet right? or is my math wrong and the bag is 250 cubic feet.

so i finally found a class that i want to take, but for it i need 3 feat, 2 of which i need to be larger for... i hate that feats that require str mostly require u to be large. cause i really think i want to add blood scale fury (draconomicon) to this character


----------



## ishalleatyourflesh (Jun 12, 2011)

Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! Staying alive! Staying alive! Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! Staaaayinnng allllllllllliiiiiiiiiiiiiiivvvvvvvvvvvvvvvveeeeeeeeeeeeee!

Do the aussir dance!

<(")> <(")< <(")> >(")> <(")> >(")<


----------



## Jemal (Jun 14, 2011)

Anyways, insane antics of the ADOS aside 
Now that Dharuhk's posted, I'll get the IC stuff up soon, just gotta figure out what all he knows bout them first, then roll up init.


----------



## Fenris (Jun 14, 2011)

Jemal said:


> Thursday's the day, ladies and gents. (er.. do we have any ladies in the crowd?)
> 
> Anyways, I'll be posting up the Test Start on Thursday, and I'll post a link to it here when I do so.
> 
> ...




Hey Jemal, sorry for my silence, the end of the semester is always crazy for me. I missed your deadline, so if you want I can still post him to the RG and jump into the acid test, or step aside. Your call. But yes he seemed to be pretty well finished off, just a few character notes for background I wanted to add.


----------



## Jemal (Jun 15, 2011)

Fenris - Go ahead and post him to the RG and then go ahead and Join the IC, I ran behind my own schedule anyways, though hopefully back on track.


Also, Flesh - The bag resizing is fine, just don't try to do anything with it that couldn't be done with a normal bag.


----------



## Jemal (Jun 15, 2011)

First up : 
Oh god, I just realized what Epic Combat posts are going to look like with a thousand different rolls in them...  If you're not allready doing so, I'd suggest using the 'simplify view' for the roller.  


> Simply go to your Settings page, click on Edit Options on the left, and scroll down to Thread Display Options. Select whether you would like EN World's inegrated secure dice roller to display dice rolls in full (with dice graphics and full details) or in streamlined view (simple text).




Second : OK, we need to make a decision for damage rolling.

We COULD do the 'you post attack rolls, i respond telling you what hit, then you respond with damage', but that will take a lot more time, so..
Either you can roll all the damage yourself with the attack roll, or I can do the damage rolls myself for just the ones that hit.

For now I'll roll the damage myself, but please chime in which you prefer, whichever wins is how you'll ALL be doing it.

Thirdly, Dharuhk - Don't roll all the attacks together in a single roll, it counts them all together, and I can't tell what your individual rolls are, it just says "16 attacks: 16d20 + 3 = 221"


Also To dharuhk - OUCH, I just realized how nasty weak spot is, I always thought it was times/day or required an attack roll.. though it doesn't allow Str dmg (what little you use)
*EDIT: Just noticed you power attacked.. If it doesn't allow Strength to apply to damage on weakspot, I don't think I'm going to allow Power Attack to apply either.  I'll allow it this one time b/c I don't want to make you redo the entire round.

Finally - I've gotta leave for work in about an hour, but I'll update the turn if I have time after getting ready, otherwise it'll be after I get home tonight.


----------



## Fenris (Jun 16, 2011)

I vote to have you roll the damage. If we post that the roll will be (so you don't have to calculate it) it will save some rolls and make slightly less cluttered posts.


----------



## Rathan (Jun 16, 2011)

I concur with Fenris.. I vote for the roll damage if I hit for me... however if you could tell me how many times 'I feel the glaive actually bite and sink in' I.E. how many times I hit that particular round.. that would be nice 

Also Jemal that 94 to hit was a crit threat... not sure if Mr. Giant is immune.. but if he's not feel free to roll the crit confirm for me please 

EDIT: Also.... adding my will save for the fear effect to all my other rolls in the acid test post!


----------



## Jemal (Jun 16, 2011)

So I notice three people edited their character sheets yesterday.  Since this is just the test run, I'm gonna be lenient on it, but once the campaign starts, please do not edit your character sheets without telling me what you're going to change first, and waiting for the OK.

And also, for the duration of the test please leave the characters alone, any changes can be made afterwards, I don't want stats changing mid-fight.


Re: Rolling, if you realize you're roll is a threat, roll the confirm, and if it's immune to crits I'll just note that myself.  
I'm ok with rolling peoples damage so long as the 'what' is included so, as Rathan said, I don't have to calculate it myself.


Dharuhk, how's Ghatto immune to fear? I don't see it on his sheet.

Flesh - As I asked Dharuhk before, please don't roll a bunch of dice together, it shows up as "attack: 5d20 = 40", which is meaningless information to me.

EDIT: Also, if everybody could please note what your Roll Results were in your ooc blocks in your posts, I would appreciate it.  It doesn't show the dice rolls while replying(WHY!!?!?), so it makes it a lot easier than opening a new tab and going back and forth.


----------



## Shayuri (Jun 16, 2011)

I'm assuming this fear effect is also mind-effecting, and would be stopped by a Mind Blank. If that's not the case let me know and I'll be happy to roll a save.

Also, you mark on the map what our dervish's starting location is, and the path he takes. Am I correct in assuming he's now at the end of that path, and no longer at the position marked '1?'


----------



## Fenris (Jun 16, 2011)

Jemal said:


> EDIT: Also, if everybody could please note what your Roll Results were in your ooc blocks in your posts, I would appreciate it.  It doesn't show the dice rolls while replying(WHY!!?!?), so it makes it a lot easier than opening a new tab and going back and forth.




I know, it is annoying.  As it having to post, then roll, then edit to add the rolls to our sblock. But that extra effort is needed to manage things at this scale.


----------



## Jemal (Jun 16, 2011)

Shayuri - The 1 is where he ended up, the other end is where he started.
Also, I'm just waiting on the Crone's action before I update.


----------



## Shayuri (Jun 16, 2011)

Gotcha. Thanks, just making sure I understand the tactical situation. 

I shall post later this morning. Gotta go to work for now, but I can post from there if I'm sneaky.


----------



## ishalleatyourflesh (Jun 16, 2011)

for my rolls i just rolled the dice, for my view i see what each dice rolled, so i see that i rolled 3/18/5/13/1 = 40, i never added the modifiers that was just for the roll. simple view might see it diferently. for my attacks in that order. i then did the math my self, it all should be in the ooc. i'll be xperementing with rolls a bit so don't mind if u see some in this section.if u want to roll damage thats fine with me, means less clutter on the forum.


----------



## Rathan (Jun 16, 2011)

So you know Jemal... my change was simply to add my saves to my stat block is all... I went to make my will save and noticed they were not in the stat block...

BTW... I made the will save heh....


----------



## ishalleatyourflesh (Jun 16, 2011)

sorry for the editing with out notice, it was mostly spending cash, and re-adding numbers.


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (Jun 16, 2011)

Sorry, I only edited my sheet because some of my skills were blocked wrong and I couldn't find them. Wanted to make it easier (I knew for a fact I have tumble ) I would have brought it up, but you had mentioned our characters are playing while still under construction (hell, I still have to post my backstory ect) so I thought changes were to be expected. (Not cheating wise, just completion wise)


----------



## Jemal (Jun 18, 2011)

No probs guys, I'm just a bit of a control freak.   Nah j/k, I just like knowing whats going on.

Anyways, just got back from work, and gotta leave for more work in.. 10 hours, so between shower/sleep/etc, I doubt I'll have the next update up till after work tommorow, sorry guys.


----------



## Jemal (Jun 21, 2011)

Fenris, was just going through your sheet and noticed your DR should be a lot higher.  You have 21 listed, but that's the base you get from 30 lvls of dwarven defender.  You should also have an additional 30 from your Epic Feats, bringing the total to 51 by my count.


----------



## Shayuri (Jun 21, 2011)

Holy Hoboken!

That's some massive DR!


----------



## Fenris (Jun 21, 2011)

Shayuri said:


> Holy Hoboken!
> 
> That's some massive DR!




That's the idea, you can hit him, but it's hard to hurt him 

I knew that Jemal, I thought it was on there but I will edit it up after the fight.


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (Jun 22, 2011)

Third Eye Conceal grants immunity to mind-affecting effects which would include fear.


----------



## Jemal (Jun 22, 2011)

Dharuhk, as I said on page 13 after your last full-round, I'm not going to be allowing Power Attack on Weakspot.  It doesn't allow str, and power attack is the same 'type' of damage - straight out force.
I'll add the attack bonus back to your to hit instead of damage, meaning you hit with all your attacks.  I'll let you roll the extra damage and edit it into your post.
*Edit : Changed my mind and rolled the extra damage to expediate my IC update.*
Update on the way


----------



## Jemal (Jun 22, 2011)

OK, Dharuhk, while I was writing the post, I went over your numbers again and something wasn't sitting right, so I did the math.

You had 24 normal attacks and 4 triple-throws.
You assumed AC 9, so..
Of your 24 normal attacks, 15 hit AC 9, 9 critting
Of your 4 triple throws (12 attacks), 4 hit AC 9, 2 critting.
You rolled damage for 9 normal crits, 2 triple-throw crits, and 8 normal hits, 1 triple throw hit.
Should have been 9 normal crits, 2 triple-throw crits, 6 normal hits, 2 triple throw hits.

HOWEVER, this's kindof a moot point anyways since w/o power attack you hit 18 higher, and everything hit, so you're actually at:
9 normal crits, 2 triple-throw crits, 15 normal hits, 10 triple-throw hits.
I went through and added the mising damage(7 normal hits, 9 triple-throw hits).
[url="http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3081170/]Normal Attacks: 1d4+12+10d6=53, 1d4+12+10d6=51, 1d4+12+10d6=42, 1d4+12+10d6=38, 1d4+12+10d6=42, 1d4+12+10d6=48, 1d4+12+10d6=50, 1d4+12+10d6=58[/url] *Accidentally rolled one too many on this, so ignoring the last one*

Triple throw 1(with precision): 1d4+8+10d6=54

Triple Throws x8: 1d4+8=11, 1d4+8=12, 1d4+8=10, 1d4+8=11, 1d4+8=10, 1d4+8=9, 1d4+8=12, 1d4+8=9

Before DR, your total damage this round was actually 1754

 ------------------------ 

Also, you have to roll the Triple-throws in seperate batches of three (One for each dagger), b/c precision damage (Such as PBS or Skirmish) only applies once per dagger trio, so knowing which ones hit matters, not just "i hit with 4 of 12".
Since you hit with them all this round anyways, I just added left the skirmish on the first 4 and removed it from the 8 after that.

And finally, how did you figure out your damage for the attacks?  For a normal attack my math tells me your attack damageshould be at +2 weapon spec +2 Weapon mastery +1 pbs +Enhancement, so +5 for the triple throws or +10 for the normals.  I used your numbers for the rolls, but would appreciate it if you told me where the extra damage is from.


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (Jun 22, 2011)

well... huh. No power attack on weak spot? Thats a huge kick in the junk. Well at least I got to have fun with the concept for 2 rounds. I guess thats why we have acid tests. I'll get started on my new character ASAP.


----------



## Shayuri (Jun 22, 2011)

You have to be joking.

You're doing more than 10 times as much damage as most of us, and you're complaining because you can't do MORE?

I...words fail me.


----------



## ishalleatyourflesh (Jun 22, 2011)

for the record he's only doing twice the damage i'm am, defore counting DR which is where his method of many lighter hits falls behind fewer big ones.


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (Jun 22, 2011)

You have me wrong here Shayuri, I'm not complaining at all. However the entire character concept was in fact base around power attack, which now doesn't work. Even without considering what impact that will have on combat stats, the character has just shifted away from the concept I wanted to play. And so,, without grudge, I am moving forward and making a new character that hopefully will not offend the dm.

Now if you want to get into the bread and butter of how well my character is doing then let me give you some details on why this character isn't gonna work out in the end.

First and formost, I'm fighting something with a touch ac of 9! I highly doubt that this will be a common occurance at level 40. 

Secondly, my character has no natural way of Skirmishing. As strange as it might seem, I didn't take the levels for skirmish. I took them to add more favored enemies for favored enemy power attack. As such I can't full round and skirmish AT ALL without the aid of magic items which I can do 7 ROUNDS a day. Power Attack was my source of dealing damage. Now its impossible to use. And for anybody who thinks I'm being overdramatic about that, my attack bonus is already 20-30 lower than every other party member. If I don't swing for touch ACs, I don't hit.

Thirdly, because of the huge investment made into power attack, I would have to overhaul the entire character anyways. I don't think I would even be playing a scout/ranger anymore. Sneak attack works way better with the concept, it just does not increase favored enemies.


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (Jun 22, 2011)

btw, It's not like it matters too much, but Ghatto is wearing a mantle of great stealth, so he does have a 20% miss chance.


----------



## Shayuri (Jun 22, 2011)

Fair enough, sir. I posted in haste, and without understanding your situation. My apologies for that, and my thanks for the clarification.

God knows I've been in situations where I wanted to switch characters for less rationale than that (but still good reasons in my mind, of course).


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (Jun 23, 2011)

Don't sweat it Shayuri, I can definatly see how somebody could interpret my post as sour grapes if they don't know my reasons. 

Now as for creation of my replacement character. Jemal, you mentioned that oriental adventures could be used on a case by case basis, so I've got three things I'd like to ask for.

Weapon Master Class: Oriental Adventures, pg 53
Way of the Lion Feat: Rokugan, pg 57
Akodo's Technique: Rokugan, pg 48

In addition I'd like to use Raptoran from races of the wild, pg 68


----------



## Jemal (Jun 24, 2011)

Sorry about the power attack thing, I had no idea your entire character was based around that idea.. As you said, this is the exact reason I wanted to do the acid test - to see what everybody's play/combat style was and see what parts don't mesh well (Either for the players or for myself).  Unfortunately, the idea of Full-power attack full-expertise dozens of attacks per round vs touch ac does not sit well with me at all.

As to your ideas for the next one,  I'll have to check those oriental ones first and get back to you (Though I'm pretty sure the Kensai from complete Warrior is a reprint of the weapon master).  As for the raptoran.. Every time I've allowed someone to play a raptoran they've used the Raptoran Dive strategy, but so long as that's not your idea, feel free.


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (Jun 24, 2011)

Oops, forgot to post one of the classes I want to use out of oriental adventures. I want to play a Yakuza, pg 55.

Kensai, which is the other name for the weapon master in oriental adventures, is actually a completely different class in complete warrior. They are not similar in any fashion.

As for the dive attack thing, I'm taking raptoran for its natural flight speed with no level adjustment. I do have a place for dive attack in my build in order to get past immune to crit DR style characters, as well as I am packing dire charge, but past the first round of combat I can't get more than 1 attack off of a charge, so its not gonna be an issue I don't think.

Anyways, might as well post up the preliminaries for the character. Heres what I got so far.

[sblock=Character]

[sblock=Stats
Fighter 2, Swashbuckler 1, Barbarian 1, Bard 1, Warchanter 3, Dervish 9, Duelist 12, Weapon Master 7, Yakuza 2, Monk 2, 

First 20 Levels: Fighter 2, Swashbuckler 1, Barbarian 1, Bard 1, Warchanter 3, Dervish 8, Duelist 4

Str: 44/+17 (18 Base + 14 Enhancement + 5 Tome + 2 Graft + 5 Level)
Dex: 30/+10 (17 Base + 6 Enhancement + 5 Tome + 2 Graft)
Con: 22/+6 (10 Base + 6 Enhancement + 4 Tome + 2 Graft)
Int: 34/+12 (18 Base + 6 Enhancement + 5 Tome + 5 Level)
Wis: 28/+9 (17 Base + 6 Enhancement Bonus + 5 Tome)
Cha: 10/+0 (10 base)

BAB/Epic BAB: +19/+29
Fort: 45 = 13 Base + 10 Epic + 15 Resistance + 6 Con + 1 Luck
Ref: 53 = 13 Base + 10 Epic + 15 Resistance + 10 Dex + 2 Duelist + 1 Luck + 2 Competence
Will: 47 = 8 Base + 10 Epic + 15 Resistance + 9 Will + 1 Luck + 4 Insight

Feats (13): Combat Expertise, Mobility, Spring Attack, Weapon Focus (Scythe), Combat Reflexes, Expeditious Dodge, Power Attack, Weapon Finesse, Improved Grapple, Way of the Lion x4

Epic Feats (7): Dire Charge, Epic Dodge, Sun School, Extra Music, Elusive Target, Akodo's Technique, Whirlwind Attack

Skills: 463

Attacks: +29 BAB, + 5 Dervish, +1 Feats, +1 Weapon Master, +17 Str, +10 Magic + 1 Haste = +64

AC: 10 Base + 10 Natural Armor + 5 Deflection + 9 Wis + 12 Int + 10 Dex + 18 Armor + 3 Dervish + 1 Monk = 78

Fighting Defensively/Dodge/Haste: +4 Dervish, +6 Fighting Defensivly, +12 Duelist, +2 Dodge, +2 Broadbladed Shortsword, +5 Defending, +1 Haste = AC 110 [/sblock]
[sblock=Equipment]
[sblock=Weapons: 2,289,093]
+10 Adamantine, Aquatic (MiC, 2,000, pg 28), Everbright (MiC, 2,000, pg 34), Prismatic Burst (MiC, 30,000, pg 40), Shadowstrike (MiC, 5,000, pg 43), Slowburst (MiC, 5,000, pg 43), Sizing (MiC, 5,000, pg 43), Vanishing (MiC, 8,000, pg 45) Scythe: *2,060,018*
+5 Adamantine Defending, Warning (+1, MiC, pg 46), Eager (+1, MiC, pg 34), Skillful (+2, Complete Arcane, pg 144), Broadbladed Shortsword (75, Complete Adventurer, pg 117: *203,075*
Demolition Crystal: 6,000
Fiendslaying Crystal: 5,000
Revelation Crystal: 5,000
Truedeath Crystal: 10,000 [/sblock]
[sblock=Grafts and Skins: 632,000]
Chitin Plating +5: 100,000
Healing Blood: 182,000
Silthilar Muscles: 110,000
Silthilar Bones: 110,000
Silthilar Tendons: 110,000 [/sblock]
[sblock=Main Gear: 9,838,180]
*Throat:* Flesh Ring of Scorn (8,000, MiC, pg 100) of Fortune Prevailing (5,000, MiC, pg 69), Word Twisting (6,000, MiC, pg 71), Chronocharm of the Celestial Wanderer (500, MiC, pg 85), Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker (500, MiC, pg 86), Scentblinder (8,000, MiC, pg 132), Warning (4,000, MiC, pg 118) Health +6 (36,000), Planes (80,000), Glory (8,000), Adaption (9,000), Wisdom +6 (36,000), Protection (38,000), Golembane (2,500), Dragon's Eye (55,000, MiC, pg 95) Retributive* (9,000, MiC, pg 121), Invulnerability (40,000, MiC, pg 132), Titans (3,300, MiC, pg 143), *: *404,750*

*Feet: *Boots of Agile Leaping (600, MiC, pg 76), Translocation (1,400, MiC, pg 71), Battle Charger (2,000, MiC, pg 76), Big Stepping (6,000, MiC, pg 76), Jumping (2,500, MiC, pg 77), Landing (500, MiC, pg 77), Sidestepping (6,000, MiC, pg 78), Swift Passage (5,000, MiC, pg 78), Tracklessness (11,000, MiC, pg 79), Tremorsense (5,000, MiC, pg 79), Dimension Striding (2,000, MiC, pg 94), Quicksilver (3,500, MiC, pg 119), Skirmisher (6,200, MiC, pg 136), Swiftness (256,000), Speed (12,000), Teleportation (49,000), Spiderclimbing (4,800), *Steadfast (1,400, MiC, pg 138), *: *425,050*

*Waist: *Belt of Battle (12,000, MiC, pg 73), Ultimate Athleticism (3,600, MiC, pg 75), Monks (13,000), Giant Strength +14 (1,960,000): *2,002,900*

*Torso:* Bolt Shirt (5,000, MiC, pg 75) of Rogue's (18,000, MiC, pg 130), Sepulchral (2,000, MiC, pg 133), Resistance +15 (2,250,000): *2,287,500*

*Ring 1:* Ring of Mystic Defiance (7,500, MiC, pg 125), Sustenance (2,500), Spell Turning (98,280), *Avoidance (10,000, MiC, pg 122), *: *133,280*

*Ring 2:* Ring of Sequestering (300,000), Vanishing (30,000, MiC, pg 128), Feather Falling (2,200): *348,300*

*Ring 3 (Hand of Glory):* Ring of Universal Elemental Resistance (180,000, MiC, pg 128), Protection +5 (50,000), Negative Protection (36,000, MiC, pg 126), : *309,000*

*Arms: *Bracers of Accuracy (4,000, MiC, pg 79), Might (4,100, MiC, pg 72), Great Collision (1,500, MiC, pg 80), *Brawler's (1,000, MiC, pg 82), Brute (500, MiC, pg 83), Counterstrike (2,500, MiC, pg 90), Great Reach (2,000, MiC, pg 108), Reciprocal Bracers (5,000, MiC, pg 120), Strongarm (6,000, MiC, pg 139), *Deathstrike (5,000, MiC, pg 93), Armor +18 (3,240,000): *3,261,900*

*Hands:* Casting Gloves (40,000, MiC, pg 84) of Agile Striking (2,200, MiC, pg 105), Arrow Reflection (2,000, MiC, pg 101), Weaponry Arcane (6,000, MiC, pg 104), Fortunate Striking (2,000, MiC, pg 105), Manual Prowess (3,000, MiC, pg 106), *Titan's Grip (14,000, MiC, pg 107), Truestrike (3,500, MiC, pg 144), *: *62,800*

*Face:* Crystal Mask of Detection (10,000, MiC, pg 90), Discernment (10,000, MiC, pg 90), Insight (20,000, MiC, pg 91), Knowledge (all) (25,000, MiC, pg 91), Mindarmor (10,000, MiC, pg 92), Visual Insight (10,000, MiC, pg 92), Dragon (4,000, MiC, pg 94), Truth (5,500, MiC, pg 99), Foefinding (2,500, MiC, pg 108), Lifesight (2,000, MiC, pg 108), Third Eye Clarity (3,000, MiC, pg 141), Third Eye Conceal (120,000, MiC, pg 141), Third Eye Surge (2,100, MiC, pg 143), Draconic Vision (16,000, MiC, pg 107): *300,150*

*Shoulders: *Mantle of Second Chances (12,000, MiC, pg 115), Transposer (6,000, MiC, pg 144), Great Stealth (242,000): *269,000*

*Head: *Scout's Headband (3,400, MiC, pg 132), of *Fiendhelm (10,000, MiC, pg 99), *Intelligence +6 (36,000), Disguise (1,800): *43,800*
*Body: *Ghostshroud (5,000, MiC, pg 104): *5,000 *[/sblock]

[sblock=Slotless Items: 702,000]
Manual of Bodily Health +4: 110,000
Manual of Gainful Exercise +5:137,500
Manual of Quickness of Action +5: 137,500
Tome of Clear Thought +5: 137,500
Tome of Understanding +5: 137,500
Heward's Handy Haversack: 2,000
Portable Hole: 20,000
Luckstone: 20,000 [/sblock]
[sblock=Times/Day Effects
Third Eye Surge: add insight bonus to damage (3 charges/day) (swift)
Third Eye Clarity: negates dazed, confused, fascinate, or stunned (1/day) (immediate)
Skirmisher's Boots: make an attack as a swift action (2/day) (swift)
Scout's Headband: darkvision, see invisibility or true seeing (3 charges/day) (standard)
Sepulchral Vest: +5 sacred bonus to saves against undead effects (3/day) (immediate)
Ring of Vanishing: greater invisibility for 2 rounds and cannot be sensed by natural senses (blindsight ect) (3/day) (swift)
Boots of Teleportation: teleport (3/day) (standard)
Quicksilver Boots: move action as a swift action (2/day) (swift)
Ring of Spellturning: spellturning for 9 spell levels (3/day) (standard)
Boots of Swiftness: haste for 20 rounds (3/day) (standard)
Mantle of Second Chances: gain effect of luck domain (1/day) (none)
Transposer Cloak: switch positions with another creature within 30ft (3/day) (swift)
Goggles of Lifesight: see if target is alive/undead/construct (3/day) (standard)
Gloves of Manual Prowess: competance bonus to sleight of hand (3 charges/day) (swift)
Gloves of Fortunate Striking: reroll attack roll (1/day) (immediate)
Gloves of Agile Striking: increase ranged attack by 1d6, or skirmish by 2d6 (2/day) (swift)
Gauntlets of Infinite Blades: create +3 bane dagger of seeking (1/day) (swift)
Gauntlet of Arrow Reflection: reflect range attack at attacker (3/day) (immediate)
Flesh Ring of Scorn: critical hit automatically confirms (3/day) (none)
Eyes of Truth: true seeing for 1 round (1/day) (swift)
Dragon Mask: see invisibility for 5 minutes (2/day) (swift)
Dimension Stride Boots: teleport short disances (5 charges/day) (standard)
Deathstrike Bracers: crit oozes, constructs, elemental, plants, and undead in melee for 1 round (3/day) (swift)
Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker: move half speed as a swift action (1/day) (swift)
Chronocharm of the Celestial Wanderer: reroll spot or listen check (1/day) (immediate)
Bracers of Accuracy: ignore miss chance or concielment (3 charges/day) (swift)
Amulet of Fortune Prevailing: reroll a saving throw (1/day) (immediate)
Belt of Battle: gain an extra action (3 charges/day) (swift)
Bolt Shirt: teleport up to 60ft as a move action (1/day) (move)
Bone Ring: prevents ability drain (3 charges/day) (none)
Boots of Big Stepping: teleport 60ft (3/day) (standard)
Boots of Sidestepping: take an additional 5ft step (3/day) (swift)
Belt of Ultimate Athleticism: take 20 on a jump, tumble, climb, swim, or balance check (1/day) (swift)
Boots of Swift Passage: teleport 20ft as a move action (5/day) (move)
Boots of Tremorsense: gain tremorsense for 5 rounds (3/day) (swift)
Boots of Tracklessness: use greater invisibility for 7 rounds (1/day) (standard)
Anklet of Translocation: teleport 10ft (2/day) (swift) 
[/sblock][/sblock][/sblock]


----------



## Jemal (Jun 24, 2011)

Allright, all of the oriental stuff looks good, though to reiterate, I REALLY don't like the diving, so I won't be allowing dire charge/Dive.  You can use one or the other, but they don't work together.. if you use the diving charge, you only get a single attack, period.

Also, if you can get the character finished quickly, I'll let you enter him into round three as the previous one dissapears into "I'm getting the BLEEP outta here"-ville.


----------



## Shayuri (Jun 24, 2011)

Hey there Jemal. Thanks for rolling. I cannot BELIEVE this week. If I live, I will become stronger; a thing of legend.

As for damage...dude, that's just how Setis rolls. Power Attack wouldn't add much. It'd add 25 to bite and tail slap, and 12 to the claws and wing buffets. So call it +100 damage total...which is not inconsiderable, but won't bring it up to the levels of the other PC's.

I sorta figured with AC 86, I might be able to engage in battles of attrition, but evidently this is not a valid strategy, since nothing's had trouble hitting her yet. I also figured that I could avoid melee with flying, but again...oops.

So I dunno. Either I'm not playing her right, or maybe the concept is simply insufficiently munched. 

Though I will be honest and say that I would never have believed before this moment that a character who could do 200 or more damage in a turn to be "insufficiently munched." I mean, come on.

The thing is, I don't want to play a pile of mathematics, you know? I'd like to play a character who is fun. Setis is fun. But evidently is also horribly insufficient. Help me out here. How can we make this work?


----------



## Fenris (Jun 24, 2011)

Shayuri said:


> Hey there Jemal. Thanks for rolling. I cannot BELIEVE this week. If I live, I will become stronger; a thing of legend.
> 
> As for damage...dude, that's just how Setis rolls. Power Attack wouldn't add much. It'd add 25 to bite and tail slap, and 12 to the claws and wing buffets. So call it +100 damage total...which is not inconsiderable, but won't bring it up to the levels of the other PC's.
> 
> ...




I hear you Shayuri. But I think this is partly an acid test for Jemal as well. What does he have to build to appropriately challenge us. And because we have such disparate numbers in AC, To Hit, and damage, Jemal has to find different challenges for each of us. And he may have over shot the challenge for the acid test. But that is what this is for. And as Jemal said, if you have an AC of 86, to make something that will hit you occasionally, it will hit most of us always. Meanwhile, let's have fun as we get splattered


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (Jun 24, 2011)

Shayuri said:


> Hey there Jemal. Thanks for rolling. I cannot BELIEVE this week. If I live, I will become stronger; a thing of legend.
> 
> As for damage...dude, that's just how Setis rolls. Power Attack wouldn't add much. It'd add 25 to bite and tail slap, and 12 to the claws and wing buffets. So call it +100 damage total...which is not inconsiderable, but won't bring it up to the levels of the other PC's.
> 
> ...




Help is on the way!!!!

I'm gonna start off by saying Shayuri that the problem is not with the character itself, but with the setting. Druids are supposed to cast spells to go with their wildshaping. If they can't they have a bad tendancy of being kinda underpowered.

That being said, heres a few tips to try and help you out in the current situation. 

-First off, you need to play a bit more versatile in order to fully employ its powers. Right now you keep getting beat around, because while your ac is good, its not quite enough to keep you out of the hospital. BUT, you do have a second preset form that has a higher AC. Once you've established that the dragon's AC may be a bit low for a circumstance, switch to the Tayellah.

-More HD does not neccesarily mean better. You currently have 2 form presets, both high HD basic combat types. Don't be afraid to expand that list with monsters that might be weaker, but bring fun special abilities to the table that could overturn the situation if used correctly. Burrow for example is a really fun way to get a leg up on an opponent. 

That concludes the strategic suggestions, now time to help out with those numbers. This one is a really easy, add one more combat preset to your wildshapes. The Gloom. 

The Gloom's AC works out to be pretty much the same as the force dragons I believe, though its touch AC is significantly better. It has less strength, but is capable of weilding a weapon, which means you can pull out a big two handed weapon and deal about the same damage that you already are doing, but because you are not so big you hit better, and you can add special abilities to the weapon instead of just a straight enhancement bonus. It would also make Jemal's suggestion about the power attack work alot better.

And then comes the icing on the cake. Turning into the Gloom would give you +13d6 sneak attack damage. While this is circumstancial, if you flank an opponent you can deal a significant amount of damage to it.


----------



## Shayuri (Jun 24, 2011)

Dharuhk, thanks. This is the kind of conversation I need to have. I appreciate your input, and hope you won't be put off by the "adversarial" position I take in responding. I'm just trying to create an environment where only the strongest ideas can survive. 

_-First off, you need to play a bit more versatile in order to fully employ its powers. Right now you keep getting beat around, because while your ac is good, its not quite enough to keep you out of the hospital. BUT, you do have a second preset form that has a higher AC. Once you've established that the dragon's AC may be a bit low for a circumstance, switch to the Tayellah._

-- The Tayellah has some disadvantages in this brawl. First, it can't fly. Second, it's AC isn't really any better than the dragon. TOUCH AC is waaaaaaaaay higher, but final AC is in the same ballpark. Third, its attacks are less damaging than the dragon's, because it's substantially weaker. The only plus it has in this situation is the poison tail, which may or may not work.

_-More HD does not neccesarily mean better. You currently have 2 form presets, both high HD basic combat types. Don't be afraid to expand that list with monsters that might be weaker, but bring fun special abilities to the table that could overturn the situation if used correctly. Burrow for example is a really fun way to get a leg up on an opponent. _

-- The list only shows two critters, because those two critters are my main combat forms, and thus, the need for notekeeping on stats and so on is greatest. I have plenty of other forms that I look at...most specialized to a noncombat role. I just haven't written out their stats. 

_The Gloom's AC works out to be pretty much the same as the force dragons I believe, though its touch AC is significantly better. It has less strength, but is capable of weilding a weapon, which means you can pull out a big two handed weapon and deal about the same damage that you already are doing, but because you are not so big you hit better, and you can add special abilities to the weapon instead of just a straight enhancement bonus. It would also make Jemal's suggestion about the power attack work alot better._

-- I actually looked at the Gloom way back when the character was in development. The Gloom is great, except it needs a weapon. It stumbles there. I can only use certain weapon with proficiencies. None are both 2 handed and qualify to inflict sneak damage. Plus, weapons are darned expensive, and I simply can't afford one of sufficient power to make it worthwhile. Not without a total redesign at least.

There's another huge problem with the Gloom. I only get the Su abilities of Dragons and Magical Beasts. Anything else, and it's only the Ex abilities.


----------



## Jemal (Jun 25, 2011)

Shayuri said:


> As for damage...dude, that's just how Setis rolls. Power Attack wouldn't add much. It'd add 25 to bite and tail slap, and 12 to the claws and wing buffets. So call it +100 damage total...which is not inconsiderable, but won't bring it up to the levels of the other PC's.



 No, but a +50% damage bonus isn't anything to sneeze at.



> I sorta figured with AC 86, I might be able to engage in battles of attrition, but evidently this is not a valid strategy, since nothing's had trouble hitting her yet. I also figured that I could avoid melee with flying, but again...oops.



several things to say about this: 
First, The battle of attrition is a completely valid strategy, but you're fighting four different monsters, each of which has a different fighting style (Also they're designed to be nasty kill-you-dead monsters, not an 'average encounter'.. one of them alone may be the equivalent of an average encounter).
Secondly, as Fenris said, I have to design the encounters around a very wide margin, and that's part of the purpose of this Acid test, i need to see how your characters work and what can be done to bring them to within a bit more balance of each other before I can reliably send encounters that won't be "Player X beats this thing without trying, but Player Y can't do anything".  Those encounters are no fun for anybody but player X.. and even he's gonna get bored after a few.
And thirdly, the beast hit you with 3 out of 12 bite attacks - I wouldn't say that's "no trouble hitting you".  You hit it more than it hit you, the only reason you didn't deal twice the damage it did is b/c it nat-20 crit with a X3 multiplier. 
As for the strands, as you said before, dragon touch ac not so good.



> So I dunno. Either I'm not playing her right, or maybe the concept is simply insufficiently munched.
> 
> Though I will be honest and say that I would never have believed before this moment that a character who could do 200 or more damage in a turn to be "insufficiently munched." I mean, come on.
> 
> The thing is, I don't want to play a pile of mathematics, you know? I'd like to play a character who is fun. Setis is fun. But evidently is also horribly insufficient. Help me out here. How can we make this work?




I'm always in favour of the fun character over the walking numbersheet, but alot of people seem to express the opinion that you have to be one or the other.. characters can be both fun AND powerful, that's the entire point of playing an EPIC game.  And I'm not even saying that she's not powerful enough, just that her damage output is lower than some of the others.  From what I'm seeing now, she looks to be a tanky meat-shield type character who takes the hits while the damage dealers dish it out.. in which case, you're doing your job fine.  She also has by far the most out-of-combat utility of the party.  
You're giving up damage-dealing potential for survivability, versatility, and non-combat utility.

200 damage isn't bad unless the character was designed to deal hundreds or thousands of damage, which you weren't, I was just trying to suggest a way to increase it.  I'm not saying "If you can't deal a thousand damage a round you're useless".



> -- I actually looked at the Gloom way back when the character was in development. The Gloom is great, except it needs a weapon. It stumbles there. I can only use certain weapon with proficiencies. None are both 2 handed and qualify to inflict sneak damage. Plus, weapons are darned expensive, and I simply can't afford one of sufficient power to make it worthwhile. Not without a total redesign at least.
> There's another huge problem with the Gloom. I only get the Su abilities of Dragons and Magical Beasts. Anything else, and it's only the Ex abilities.



Um.. 'qualify to inflict sneak damage'?  Not sure if you're remembering from 2nd ed or what, but I've never seen any limits on what weapons can inflict sneak attack other than 'not improvised'.. and that only sap/unarmed can deal nonlethal sneak attacks.  I regularly see Greatsword-Sneak Attack characters that ram their blades into peoples kidneys.  
A non-epic weapon (+5) wouldn't really cost that much, and would be just as effective as your amulet of mighty fists.
And the Sneak attack IS extraordinary, as is the Opportunist ability the gloom gives.  
I'm not trying to push you towards the gloom, just pointing a few things out.


----------



## Shayuri (Jun 25, 2011)

Jemal...you made some very interesting points, many of which I didn't catch in your first post. Thanks very much for the clarifications.

For example, I didn't realize the monster had 12 attacks and hit with 3.

That does throw things into a sharper focus. 

One other request on my part...since Setis gets +2 to save vs the abilities of outsiders, please let me know when that applies? I'll try to remember to remind you too, since I know you have a LOT to keep track of in each post. 

Anyway, thanks again! I'll take another look through the SRD and see what other monsters I may be missing.


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (Jun 25, 2011)

Alrighty, character optimisation exercise round 2:

-- The Tayellah has some disadvantages in this brawl. First, it can't fly. Second, it's AC isn't really any better than the dragon. TOUCH AC is waaaaaaaaay higher, but final AC is in the same ballpark. Third, its attacks are less damaging than the dragon's, because it's substantially weaker. The only plus it has in this situation is the poison tail, which may or may not work.

I'm having a hard time figuring out how you got AC 86, it seems to me like it should be alot higher. Anyways when it comes to the Tayellah, it has 4 better AC than the force dragon form by my count. 4 AC can easily make the difference between life and death. And if the attacks are either too low or too high for it to matter, than you wouldn't be worrying about it anyways .

Best Guess for AC as Tayellah:
10 Base + 26 Dex (Total Dex = 63: 48 Base + 5 Inherant + 10 Enhancement) + 15 Wis + 19 Natural Armor (4 Base + 10 item + 5 Armor of the Crocadile) + 8 Armor + 10 Deflection + 15 Insight - 4 Size = 99

AC for Force Dragon:
10 Base + 7 Dex (Total Dex = 25: 10 Base + 5 Inherant + 10 Enhancement) + 15 Wis + 49 Natural Armor (34 Base + 10 item + 5 Armor of the Crocadile) + 8 Armor + 10 Deflection - 4 Size = 95

Now for the flying aspect, I actually have a very simply solution for you. Add wings of flying to the character. Thanks to the magic of wilding clasp, anything you turn into can fly. Its just really practical. You won't be able to fly as fast, but combat wise you won't be totally screwed against flyers.

-- There's another huge problem with the Gloom. I only get the Su abilities of Dragons and Magical Beasts. Anything else, and it's only the Ex abilities.

If you take a look at the Gloom, it only has 2 supernatural abilities. A fear aura, and its silence ability. The lack of those powers is irrelevant for what you would be using it for.


----------



## Jemal (Jun 25, 2011)

Dharuhk's right, your AC in dragon form should be higher.

Although Dharuhk forgot to take into account your +1 dex from level, making the total mod +8, for an AC of 96, and the Tayella has an even 100.

At least, that's the AC I swung against (Yes, the roper has a rediculous attack bonus, it hit 25% vs AC 96)

Secondly, Dharuhk's right about the flying - And it's a good idea anyways, at high level it's usually 'fly or die'.

And also, don't forget to use your Morphic Weapon, you are a Warshaper after all.  At this level, it's much more effective to use it for the extra attack than to 'size up' an existing attack, so grow an extra tail if you want some more damage, or an extra head to bite with... Two headed force dragon FTW!  


Also, not sure if I'll get much of a chance to post tommorow (Er.. later tonight for the rest of you 'day' people), it's my 10 year High school reunion, so if things go well I'll be busy having a blast.. and if they don't, I'll be busy moping.

Either way, I'll probly be busy. *L*  Anyways, I'll try to get a post up beforehand, if Fenris posts in time. 



*EDIT: 
PS Dharuhk, did you see the msg about me not wanting dive/dire charge or similar combos?


----------



## Shayuri (Jun 25, 2011)

Hmm...lemme doublecheck here.

Setis has a base AC of 61 in her natural humanoid form...that's assuming no bonuses from wildshape and so on. Just stats and items.

A force dragon adds 39 natural armor to that 61 (including the croc skin thing). Then subtracts 4.

lol...okay that's 96, not 86. I am good at math when I'm tired. 

The Tayellah...it adds 17 to AC from Dex (38 points higher than base), 15 from insight and 9 natural...so 41 plus 61 minus 4. So...98 total.

Not overly shabby actually. Thanks for the check!

The Wings of Flying are a good idea too. Especially since I haven't even got a Cloak item by the look of it. Plus, if I have those, I can use their Good maneuvering to hover, so I don't need the Hover feat...freeing it up for power attack, perhaps. 

As for Morphic Weapons, Jemal, you have an interesting idea there! Now, as I read it, Morphic Weapons can either create a natural attack the shape normally lacks...thus adding a new natural attack...or it can size up the existing natural attacks. It doesn't look to me like I could create another iteration of a natural attack the form already possesses.

But of course, if you say I can, then I most enthusiastically will.  Two bites would be just fine by me.

Edit: One last thing. Do roper strands count as ranged attacks that can be deflected? I can see how they're in a bit of a grey area, since they're still connected to the roper's body...but shoot out over distance.


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (Jun 25, 2011)

Jemal, you don't keep level bonus to ability scores when you wildshape. Only inherant and whatever magic effects or items are on you.


----------



## Jemal (Jun 26, 2011)

Dharuhk - where'd you read that?  I've always been under the impression that the only things that change are base & racial.

Shayuri - 38 divided by 2 = 19, not 17.

As for the roper thing, I hadn't even thought about it before, I always treated them like reach weapons, but technically they are listed as a 'ranged' attack.

Maybe I'll count'em as 'special' ranged attack, meaning they can be deflected by exceptional deflection... Gimme a while to think about it.


----------



## Shayuri (Jun 26, 2011)

See? Told you I was good at math.

*pours self into a gelatinous cube mold*


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (Jun 27, 2011)

K, I've replaced Ghatto with my new character Elle in the rogues gallery. I'm going to roll initiative in game if you still want to add her into the acid test.


----------



## Jemal (Jun 27, 2011)

Fenris: Sorry, just noticed your question in the IC thread.  Yes, armour spikes can be used to attack in a grapple, that's one of the things they were designed for.

Dharuhk -Yep, go ahead.  Right after Fenris' turn we'll be starting the new round.


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (Jun 27, 2011)

Jemal, would you be able to tell me what my character knows about the situation and how I'm going to be entered? As far as I can tell I'll be next on the initiative and figure it might save some time if I can get an idea of what I want to do ahead of time.


----------



## Jemal (Jun 28, 2011)

Well, you can fly fairly well, so for your entrance, I'd say copy the giant... Death from Above.  I'll assume you know what they did at the start of the encounter, and that you've seen what's happening, you were sent to catch up and help them. 
I'll Assume that you're within range to move in.. You have 135 fly speed, so being 200' up would let you dive down(Using 100'movement to go down) and fly around the guy dervishing for a little if you want.  I'll also want a spot check from you, and any applicable knowledge checks.


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (Jun 28, 2011)

Alrighty, spots checks made, and I've put a little intro in game. Question for you though Jemal, would I be able to have my inspire recklessness on beforehand since I know what I'm getting into?


----------



## ishalleatyourflesh (Jun 28, 2011)

inspire recklessness? please let the bezerker benifite from that, Please! instead of -20 attack and +80 damage it`ll be -20 ac and +80 damage.
OH the fun i`ll have... for 2 mins then i die cause of all the damage i`ll take.....

Aussir gonna like having feathergirl in party.


----------



## Rathan (Jun 29, 2011)

Wow I'm getting my ass handed to me hardcore it seems.. the giant has hit me 6 times and I've hit him twice... yeeesh heh


----------



## Jemal (Jun 29, 2011)

Rathan - Aye, if you guys wanna win you'll have to choose your opponents wisely.

Dharuhk - Sure.

Ishalleatyourflesh -Inspire Recklessness is single target with a 60' range, I'm presuming he's using it on himself.


Also, Still waiting on Fenris.  I'll check back in about 8 hours, if he hasn't posted by then I'll assume he delays.


----------



## Jemal (Jun 29, 2011)

Allright, IC update's up, Duvalis' turn

ALSO, How I'll be describing how injured enemies are will be based on a percentage of their total hp, modified by how difficult it is to gage their wounds (It's easier to tell how hurt a normal person is comapared to say Someone fully covered in platemail, or a strange monster).  I'll post one of these up every few rounds.

Uninjured: HP>90%
Mildly Injured: 70-90%
Injured: 50-70%
Badly Injured: 30-50%
Severely Injured: 10-30%
Nearly Dead: HP<10%

I'll be adding this to the first post.


Dharuhk - I'm not comfortable with the prismatic burst as written b/c I dislike anything with a save-or-die effect (Even if it's not always).  I'm willing to alter it a bit for you - Instead of a normal prismatic spray, it deals random element damage like the lower lvls of prismatic spray, as so: 
1d6: 1=Fire 2=Acid 3=Electricity 4=Cold 5=Sonic 6=Roll twice(Ignoring 6's).  Regardless of the element it's 40 damage, reflex half.  That work for you, or would you rather drop it?


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (Jun 29, 2011)

The changes on prismatic burst sound good to me. Btw, I had to make an edit in my character, improved crit didn't properly make it through my transcribing. I replaced a way of the lion with it. On that note, I was going to ask you, do you want me to add the way of the lion attack bonus on the assumption most creatures will have an armor bonus, or hold off and let you add it in later?


----------



## Jemal (Jun 29, 2011)

I figured as much on the Imp. Crit.
As far as way of the lion, I think that'd be the easiest way to do it, I doubt there'll be many opponents without armour/nat. armour bonuses.


----------



## Rathan (Jul 1, 2011)

*Screams and flings his keyboard.....* just ONE good attack round is all I ask for... I have +75, +75, +70, +65, and +60 and I don't get much of anything good for rolls... grrrrrr!


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (Jul 1, 2011)

If it makes you feel any better, as far as I can tell that cat has a dismal AC. I'd wager you hit with everything except that nat 1.


----------



## ishalleatyourflesh (Jul 1, 2011)

for the record i hit it with a 50, not +50, with a 50 total, mind you is flatfooted to me...


----------



## Jemal (Jul 1, 2011)

Dharuhk, I need to know your take on the tarrasque's Carapace.  It says it reflects "Rays, lines, cones, and even magic missiles".  Now, to most people that's fairly straight forward - It reflects Rays, Lines, Cones, and Magic Missiles.  But I've heard some arguments over the fact that it says "EVEN" magic missiles, meaning it affects more things.. though its always vague on what those 'other' things might be.

So I figured I'd just ask.


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (Jul 1, 2011)

ummm... Jemal.... you kinda posted that question in the wrong thread. I'm gonna have to read up on that before I can make a call though.


----------



## Jemal (Jul 1, 2011)

lol, whoops, thnx for catching that.  I'll repost it in the proper thread.


----------



## ishalleatyourflesh (Jul 2, 2011)

and it seems i can't play a frenzy bezerker. i know i "can" do other things but i don't think i should be allowed to at all. they use the term frenzy for a reason so any thing i would say to explain any other action would feel like a cop out.


----------



## Shayuri (Jul 2, 2011)

Wha...huh?

Sorry, I'm not sure what you're trying to say there.

Jemal...did I get skipped? Or am I being dense?

You called Aussir's init, which is normally when I go, but this time...should I just assume I can go too, or is something stopping me from acting this turn?


----------



## ishalleatyourflesh (Jul 2, 2011)

i assume that he didn't mention you only cause he was focused on me. if something was preventing you from action he would say.


----------



## Jemal (Jul 2, 2011)

yeah, sorry Shayuri, it's your turn as well, as flesh said, I was kinda focused on him at the time due to the cat-astrophic mauling.

OK, bad puns aside - Flesh, you can choose to attack another target.  It specifically lists what you CAN'T do, and says you must attack foes to the best of your ability.  Even frenzied Aussir would understand that this cat is not the best target, as it'll eat him shortly.


Anwyays, assuming you've both got IC posts up when i get off work tonight (~12 hours), I'll try to get the next update up then.


----------



## ishalleatyourflesh (Jul 3, 2011)

i know i "can" it just doesn't sit right with me.  being a bezerker really should be a save or die effect. they don't just switch targets they. kill what is in front of them then kill something else. it's why you need to make a will save to end it. if you read frenzy it's kinda weird actually. when it runs out of opponets then it gives the rules on how it should work, closest target, reguardless of health. yes a bezerker would attack enemies first and then move on to everything else but it is kinda worded that they only loose their mind after all enemies are down. the will save represents the thinking mind reaching through the anger and taking control.


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (Jul 3, 2011)

ishalleatyourflesh, you really do seem to put too much emphasis on the 'rage' part of frenzy. Most stories I've heard that involve a character that fights in a frenzied state still leave them very alert and in many cases even better at fighting, not becoming stupid and banging their heads against a wall because it happens to be whats in front of them. 

Their drawback is they don't know when to stop fighting, they sometimes can't tell friend or foe in the thick of things, and they are willing to fight to the death. But most of them fight for a purpose, and are willing to die to accomplish that purpose. They don't fight to the death just cause they can. In alot of these cases they fight to protect someone or to stall the enemy, which requires them to hold back many foes, not just hack and slash at the nearest one. 

It not like frenzying drops your int score to 2, which is how you seem to want to play it. Like an animal who can't make decisions.

btw, on that note keep on the cat. I'm gonna try and save you when it comes to my turn.


----------



## ishalleatyourflesh (Jul 3, 2011)

most stories i've come across that use bezerkers they do become mindless beasts, the few i've seen other wise seem wrong to me. just because some one gets a "power boost" from emotions does not make them a bezerker. there are those that get stronger when something happens to a friend, or something causes them to go over the edge im most cases it is not full on bezerk because yes they are still in control. it's the ones that go completly out of control then turn on thier allies usually needing some one to pull them out of it, they are the bezerkers. they are the ones that use frenzy. the rest just use rage as the barbarian ability where you are still in complete control of your character.

fren·zy   /ˈfrɛnzi/   
[fren-zee] 
noun, plural -zies,  verb, -zied, -zy·ing.  
–noun 
1. extreme mental agitation; wild excitement or derangement. 
2. a fit or spell of violent mental excitement; a paroxysm characteristic of or resulting from a mania: He is subject to these frenzies several times a year. 

—Synonyms 
2.  madness, insanity, lunacy, aberration; rage, fury, raving. 

—Antonyms 
1.  calm. 2.  sanity.

Wisdom actually, unable to make decisions because if you could you wouldn't attack someone you don't want to. bezerkers become insane. mentaly unbalanced. they don't get angry "mad", they get mental "mad". a bezerker could just as easy go bezerk from the pleasure of killing or sorrow form loss as to anger. i know i'm reading more into this then i should. if the character actually went bezerk it would become a NPC any time it used frenzy. and this is why i said "I" couldn't play a frenzied bezerker not because they are unplayable but because i think they should be. They're a NPC class.

this is mostly because i failed my saveing throw, if i made it i wouldn't have brought any thing up.

my problem is what they called the class and ability. I know what the rules state and what was thought when the class was written. if it is called "ANYTHING ELSE, ANYTHING!" besides frenzy I would have no problem with it.


----------



## Shayuri (Jul 3, 2011)

Jemal said:


> yeah, sorry Shayuri, it's your turn as well, as flesh said, I was kinda focused on him at the time due to the cat-astrophic mauling.
> 
> OK, bad puns aside - Flesh, you can choose to attack another target.  It specifically lists what you CAN'T do, and says you must attack foes to the best of your ability.  Even frenzied Aussir would understand that this cat is not the best target, as it'll eat him shortly.
> 
> ...




Mew, thanks Jemal. I'll post asap. Holiday weekend is slowing me a bit, but I'll be on it sometime Sunday. 

As far as frenzy goes...seems like Aussir is free to interpret it as he likes. His interpretation is more limiting and restrictive than the rules require, but that's his privilege. This test is giving him an idea of how that interpretation will work...and perhaps the results of the test will influence his final decision.


----------



## Jemal (Jul 5, 2011)

sssshhhhhhhaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyuuuuuuuuurrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiiii
eat something!


----------



## Shayuri (Jul 5, 2011)

lol...I'm sorry! best laid plans!

I'm back now so post will come tomorrow as soon as I can! I promise!


----------



## Ruiktheforgotten (Jul 7, 2011)

yoh got a character to post  not sure whats left of the acid test but if i can still join let me know xD 

[sblock=Mizore]Race: half-orc

levels 2Monk/2Barb/4Fighter/2Tempest/30Dervish

Str/24/+7   HD: D10   HP:720    Current:720
Dex/54/+22  AC:83/106     Flat:61           Touch:27
Con/26/+8   Speed:340ft
Int/20/+5   Fort:43+   Reflex:53+   Will:41+
Wis/30/+10  BAB:54+/74+      Init:24+
Cha/14/+2

Skills:
Escape Artist:43/65
Hide:43/65
Intimidate:43/45
Listen:43/53
Move Siltenly:43/65
Perform(Dance):12/17
Spot:43/53
Tumble:43/65
Use Rope:43/65

Feats:
Combat Expertise
Expeditious Dodge
Mobility
Weapon Focus(Kama)
Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Greater Two-weapon Fighting
Perfect Two-weapon Fighting
Power Attack
Keenerd Scout
Altertness
Combat Reflexes
Improved Grapple
Weapon Finess
Hand of Osomao-wo
DRx3 9/-
Flurry of Blows
Weapon Sec
Run
Epic Weapon Focus(kama)
Epic Speedx4
Unarmed Strike
Melee Weapon Mastery(slashing)

Attacks:

1D6+31

74+/74+/74+/74+/74+/74+/69+/69+/64+/64+/59+/59+

Special:

Dervish Dance 15/day
Movement Mastery
Slashing Blades
Fast Movement +50
Spring Attack
Dance of Death
Improved Reaction
Elaborate Parry
Tire Dance
A Thousand Cuts
Trap Finding
Evasion

Gear:                                  Gold:53,000
Ring of Prot(+5) 50,000
Ring of Freedom of Movement 40,000
Tome of Strengh(5+) 137,500
Tome of Dex(5+) 137,000
Tome of Con(4+) 110,000
Tome of Int(5+) 137,000
Tome of Wis(4+) 110,000
Chitin Plating(5+) Nat 100,000
Silfilar Bones Cha(2+) 110,000
Silfilar Muscles Str(2+) 110,000
Silfilar Tendons Dex(2+) 110,000
Healing Blood (FH2) 91,000
Bracers of Armour (20+) 4,010,000
Boots of Swiftness 256,000
Casters Glove 35,000
Rod of Invulnerability 600,000
Amulet of Natural Armour(5+) 50,000
Wings of FLying 54,000
Monks Belt 13,000
Strong Arm Bracers 6,000
Amulet of Con (6+) 36,000
Kama(5+)(collision)2,(Transmute)2,(magebane)1,Adamantine 200,302
Kama(5+)(Defending)3.(Speed)1,(Mercy)1,Adamantine 200,302
Gloves of Dex (20+) 4,010,000
Vest of Resistance(10+) 1,000,000
Hand of Glory 12,000
Ring of Universal Resistance 180,000
[/sblock]


----------



## Jemal (Jul 7, 2011)

Gotta leave for work right away, just a couple things before I go.

A: Hello Ruik, welcome aboard, we needed someone to fill in Nephtys' spot.  I'll look over the character shortly.

B: Fenris, there are things around that AREN'T flying.

C: Dharuhk, how do you store the sword, retrive the scythe, and then retrieve the sword and store the scythe in one round?  You had the sword out at the end of your last round, and you can't store AND retrieve the same item from the same glove in the same round.

D: Will update after work.


----------



## Fenris (Jul 8, 2011)

Jemal said:


> B: Fenris, there are things around that AREN'T flying.




yeah, I know there are, and once the thrice-damned roper-choker is dead and stops grappling me maybe I can move over to one


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (Jul 8, 2011)

Gloves of storing (or in this case the casters gloves) are a free action, meaning there isn't really a limit as to how many times you can use it in a round. Now the DM can set limitations in unreasonable cases but I will point out that the way I am using the gloves now are for storytelling purposes only, for there is never a need for me to actually put the scythe away. As such the number of free actions used would actually only be 2, one for each glove. In addition, the casters glove states that I gain the benfits of the stored item as if I were carrying it anyways, though I prefer the appearance of actually weilding the weapon itself.

All in all, I just like the idea of a seemingly morphic combat style as she moves from attack to defense and back.

Also Fenris, the Choker isn't grappling you, I was its grappling target for the round and it didn't hit me. You are just stranded. There are no limitations on your actions so long as you don't move further away from it. Also, even without moving you are in attack range of the giant cat.


----------



## ishalleatyourflesh (Jul 8, 2011)

alo, just thought i'd mention that gloves of storing state you can store and retrive an item 1nce a round(so i thought... reprint? house rule? where did i see that...)  so it works if u have 2 gloves which u probly do, and as for using the scyth your not activating it, which is what casting gloves lets u do, you're attacking with it, slightly different concept.


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (Jul 8, 2011)

Ummm... you're all backwards there ishalleatyourflesh. Lets go over everything thats wrong with what you just posted.

First off, gloves of storing DO NOT have a limit no how many times they can be used in a round.

Secondly, I'm pretty sure you are thinking of the additional effect of the casters gloves which allow you to activate the effect of an item stored into them once per round. This has nothing to do with storing or retrieving an item.

Thirdly, the scythe isn't being activated, the broadbladed shortswords defending ability is. Why would I 'activate' a weapon I'm attacking with? I'm hitting things with it.


----------



## Jemal (Jul 8, 2011)

OK, not sure where I got the Glove of storing thing from, but I was under the same impression that Flesh was - That you can't use it multiple times in a round.. makes sense to me, but the rules appear to state differently. *Shrug*

I'm not too fond of it being used as a way to get all the bonuses of a Defending Broadbladed shortsword with none of the downsides, but I guess that's another tactic to keep in mind for my NPC's.  

Fenris - He is correct, you are NOT grappled this round, just stranded.  The strand can be attacked and severed (Rather easily as you've all discovered), or you can just live with it and act freely so long as you don't move any further from the roper.  Though then it gets to reel you in for free on its next turn. 

I'll give you a while to change your post if you'd like to alter your actions in light of that information (with your reach, you can attack the cat).  Please post here when you've edited it.. OR post here If you don't want to change it.. Either way, throw me a post, so I know when to update.


Dharuhk - Question about your attacks.  Why was the crit confirmation on your last attack (1d20+32=51) rolled as (1d20+47=51).. why do you have a +15 to confirm?  I understand it doesn't matter due to the flesh ring, but wondering if you have bonuses to confirm or if that was just a math mistake?


ALL: TL;DR = Waiting a little longer to see if Fenris wants to change his post given new information.


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (Jul 8, 2011)

The crit that rolled the confirm was my first crit. So it used that same attack bonus. As I said in the post, my last 3 crits use the fleshring, since they have much less of a chance to confirm. 

I went into that round with absolutely no intention of using the fleshring on any of my first 4 attacks, since that would be an absolute waste.

I have a feeling you figured that since it was posted last it had to be paired with the last attack, but that is NOT the case.


----------



## Jemal (Jul 8, 2011)

KK, just checking.  Didn't know if it was an error or if I missed something, so I asked.


----------



## Jemal (Jul 8, 2011)

PS, Dharuhk, I had some questions for you over in your epic game.


----------



## Shayuri (Jul 8, 2011)

Jemal, answers for your questions.

firstly, I don't have 5 levels of warshaper, so yeah, I had to use Wildshape again. that does heal me up a bit though, so it's not all bad.

regarding the bleed damage; I have Fast Heal...I've been assuming that negates the bleed each turn, but in hindsight perhaps I shouldn't be so hasty. Does Fast Healing count?


----------



## ishalleatyourflesh (Jul 8, 2011)

sorry for jumpng on that but i did correct meself on the activations, and the way you stated it it sounded like you could keep the scyth in the glove and attack with it. haveing a defending weapon in a caster's glove isn't all that bad really, more expensive then the armour spikes way but nothing wrong, though the bonus that it gives from beaing a broad blade wouldn't work because thats not magic it's from using it like a shield.


----------



## Fenris (Jul 8, 2011)

Jemal said:


> Fenris - He is correct, you are NOT grappled this round, just stranded.  The strand can be attacked and severed (Rather easily as you've all discovered), or you can just live with it and act freely so long as you don't move any further from the roper.  Though then it gets to reel you in for free on its next turn.
> 
> I'll give you a while to change your post if you'd like to alter your actions in light of that information (with your reach, you can attack the cat).  Please post here when you've edited it.. OR post here If you don't want to change it.. Either way, throw me a post, so I know when to update.
> 
> ALL: TL;DR = Waiting a little longer to see if Fenris wants to change his post given new information.




Ah, my apologies. So I did change it, using the hasted glaive I attacked the roper three times and tried to trip the cat (made the contingency attack) as well as one out-right attack on the cat. Hope it isn't too confusing.


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (Jul 8, 2011)

Fenris, you're kinda selling yourself on your trip check there. You have improved trip which gives you a +4, you are large which gives you +4, you have bracers of relentless might which give you +8, and if you have a swift action you can expend charges of some of your items to take that check even higher.


----------



## Albedo (Jul 9, 2011)

Greetings all. This is your co-DM here, assisting Jemal from behind the scenes and creater of 2 of the friendly critters you are playing with. Normally I leave the posting to Jemal, but he ran late and had to go to work before posting. As such here I am.

Fenris: Killikak successfully trips the cat.

Dharuhk: Since Killikak went before Elle, you can choose to retcon your turn as well if you'd like.


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (Jul 9, 2011)

I'm fine with what I've posted already.


----------



## Jemal (Jul 12, 2011)

Ruiktheforgotten said:


> yoh got a character to post  not sure whats left of the acid test but if i can still join let me know xD
> 
> [sblock=Mizore]Race: half-orc
> 
> ...




Allright Ruik, couple things.
First off: Please post the character into the  Rogue's Gallery

Secondly, when you do so, please include the math breakdowns for your character (AC, saves, Attack bonus, and stats specifically).  Just take a look at some of the other characters in the gallery for examples of how to write it up on here.  On that note, I see some apparent Number errors in your gear.  You have caster glove listed as 35,000, you have Bracers of Armour+20 as 4,010,000 and you have gloves of dex +20 as 4,010,000.  What's the math on that?  Also your tomes of Dex and Int should be 500 more each.

Thirdly, I've entered you into Initiative, I rolled a 33 for you, placing you after the Cat but before the swarm.   
For your entry, I've decided to have a little fun. 
You were a little late to the party, and had to have a mage help you out in discovering where everybody had gotten off to.  He managed to locate them and has teleported you in.  Your arrival point will be marked on the current round's map, as with your initiative placement.
You don't know what's been going on, or even that the encounter had begun until you arrive, but are quick enough to react.  Have fun. 

And finally, two things for everybody: 
FIRST: It's not required for the test, and things may change on yoru characters but I'd appreciate it if everyone would put some work into character backgrounds to be posted in the gallery - Or if you allready have a background in mind, post it up.

Second: I'm going to be asking that everybody switch to invisiblecastle again (Those that haven't allready).  With the amount of rolling required for an Epic campaign, the links it provides and the way it rolls are just so much easier for all involved, IMO.  If anybody disagrees, please respond with your thoughts.
If you don't know the site, it's pretty easy to find.  www.invisiblecastle.com


----------



## Jemal (Jul 12, 2011)

Fenris said:


> Ah, my apologies. So I did change it, using the hasted glaive I attacked the roper three times and tried to trip the cat (made the contingency attack) as well as one out-right attack on the cat. Hope it isn't too confusing.




PS
For the future, please post what your actions are in the IC thread along with your post.. I'm updating and had to make a judgement call on this.  Your IC post seems to indicate three attacks on the strands wheras your OOC post here says you attack the roper three times.  I will update under the assumption that one attack is directed at the strand to free yourself, and the other two are at the roper itself (Keeping in mind that the strands are not connected to the Ropers HP, it can exude more of them at will.  Severing them is just to keep it from reeling you in and eating you).


Also, For everybody again : If you're not rolling your own damage, please include a little statblock telling me what to roll for you if you do it, so I don't have to go through your sheet doing the math myself and wondering if you have any hidden abilities that add bonus damage.  (Sorry if that sounds a bit bitter, I don't mean to, just trying to be straight-forward.  )


----------



## Jemal (Jul 12, 2011)

Also, out of DM/Balance curiosity (And after seeing Dharuhk's now 115 AC after I'd assumed everybody would be capping around 100), I'd like to know what everybody's Maximum AC could be (Assuming self-controlled variables, not counting things like cover).

EDIT: On that note, was poking through the rogue's gallery and noticed something about Rathan's character - 
Duvalis doesn't have anything giving him an Armour Bonus.  I know he's monk, but bracers would still function for him, and you could afford the nonepic +8 ones for a mere 64K.
Not sure if I've mentioned that before or not, just figured I'd point it out in case you want to change that after the Acid Test.


----------



## Fenris (Jul 12, 2011)

Jemal said:


> PS
> For the future, please post what your actions are in the IC thread along with your post.. I'm updating and had to make a judgement call on this.  Your IC post seems to indicate three attacks on the strands wheras your OOC post here says you attack the roper three times.  I will update under the assumption that one attack is directed at the strand to free yourself, and the other two are at the roper itself (Keeping in mind that the strands are not connected to the Ropers HP, it can exude more of them at will.  Severing them is just to keep it from reeling you in and eating you).
> 
> 
> Also, For everybody again : If you're not rolling your own damage, please include a little statblock telling me what to roll for you if you do it, so I don't have to go through your sheet doing the math myself and wondering if you have any hidden abilities that add bonus damage.  (Sorry if that sounds a bit bitter, I don't mean to, just trying to be straight-forward.  )



Jemal, my apologies, I did not understand the difference between the targets.


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (Jul 12, 2011)

You would have to read the stat block on a roper to understand it Fenris. 

Though Jemal is doing things slightly different, since against a normal roper its a sunder attempt that does not provoke an AoO to break a strad, whereas he's been using regular attacks on the strand (thank god, I think that roper outhits us to the point where party members would have quite the trouble getting out if that were the case).


----------



## Ruiktheforgotten (Jul 13, 2011)

hey sorry for the lack of a response on this haventh been sleeping good lately  Ill have my characters math corrected and what not done tonight after work


----------



## Jemal (Jul 15, 2011)

Fenris: As Dharuhk said, it's a Roper thing.  They have 6 strands they can use to 'grab' people, as you've been noticing.  When 'stranded', you're not technically 'grappled', you just can't move any further away from the roper.  On its turn, it gets to drag you in 20' closer for free if you're still attached.  On your turn you can sever a strand with a sunder attempt.  
I've forgone the 'sunder' feature and made it a straight up attack, b/c I discouraged PC's from taking sunder due to MAD, so I didn't want to penalize you all for something I discouraged in the first place.

Severing a strand frees you, but deals the roper no damage, and it can exude a new one on its turn as a free action (Basically the only lasting effect is that you're - temporarily at least - freed from the strand)



PS, It's Rathan's turn in case he didn't notice IC.


----------



## Jemal (Jul 18, 2011)

Allright, Rathan appears to be offline for now, don't suppose anybody knows why or when he'll be back?

I'll give till later tonight just in case he's watching but hasn't been posting, and then I'll NPC his turn.


----------



## Jemal (Jul 21, 2011)

Not sure if I mentioned this before, but Just for the record I expect combats to go much quicker than this in the actual campaign - This fight suffers from the problem of "NPC-PC-NPC-PC-NPC-PC", so everybody has to wait their turn and wait on others to post. 

In most of my combats, I expect either single-boss fight, or several NPC's/monsters with similar Initiatives, so it'll be more like "DM - PCs", and you can post in whatever order you want amongst yourselves.  That'll significantly speed up the process.

This fight also has the problem of being basically 4 boss encounters, so it's a big epic long fight.


----------



## ishalleatyourflesh (Jul 23, 2011)

i  just realised that my armour bonus increases when i grow cause being tiny halfs my armour bonus... now does that only apply to the normal armour bonus or the magical as well? gotta talk to u about that. so my ac looks like ...i'm gonna have to rewrite ALL of my character sheet... 70-103 not sure where i got that 2 ac from or lost 3...


----------



## Jemal (Sep 5, 2011)

Sorry all for the hiatus, I'm back from my month off, fresh with a brand spanking new computer.

Just like to take a roll call to see who's still around/interested.


----------



## Fenris (Sep 5, 2011)

Jemal said:


> Sorry all for the hiatus, I'm back from my month off, fresh with a brand spanking new computer.
> 
> Just like to take a roll call to see who's still around/interested.




Ready and waiting.


----------



## Shayuri (Sep 5, 2011)

Haven't gone anywhere. But we may need some kind of summary, because I have totally lost the thread of this combat.


----------



## Ruiktheforgotten (Sep 8, 2011)

i agree with Shayuri also i be in


----------



## Jemal (Sep 10, 2011)

hmm, bit less of a response than I was hoping for.  I can contact Ishalleatyourflesh and see if he wishes to return... Also looks like both Rathan and Dharuhk went AWOL around the same time I took off, but i don't know how to contact either of them.

So, I have a couple thoughts.  

A: Re-recruit or stick with what we got?  If flesh returns that'll make 4 pcs.

B: Finish off the test fight(With /without new pcs), restart it with the new characters, or move directly into the campaign.

C: Chicken or Egg?


----------



## Shayuri (Sep 12, 2011)

Just three characters might be a little dry...though at epic levels it might also be a lot more manageable.

I'm of divided opinion regarding the test fight. On the one hand, I like the idea of testing the mechanics of our characters to make sure we haven't made errors and that we can be effective on the sorts of fights epic folks get into. On the other hand, you've said a few times now that the test fight is NOT indicative of the kind of fight we'll be routinely getting into, and that it's actually quite a bit harder.

I guess I know where it's coming from. If we develop tactics and mechanics that work in this fight, then we'll be well prepared for less challenging fights. I'm just vaguely concerned that the test fight difficulty will become the 'new average' as far as difficulty goes if we optimize to that extent. It also concerns me that fights of that magnitude virtually -require- a very high level of optimization, which rules certain concepts (like, I feel, mine) inherently less effective. There's only so much you can do to optimize shapeshifting without spells, as well as a host of other ideas that might be perfectly viable in the actual game's difficulty, but that the test fight renders unusable.

But I'm willing to go the distance and see what happens.


----------



## Ruiktheforgotten (Sep 16, 2011)

ya i think a smaller party would probably be for the better as things would end up going a lot smoother and we wouldnt have to wait of x number of people for posts  

there mister dm gets my 2 cents worth now xD.....AND AND.....hi! hehehehehe!


----------



## Jemal (Sep 16, 2011)

Allright, well I guess I'll set about starting up the real campaign then, I think we've got a bit of a feel for each others fighting style from what we did allready, so I'll work on the starter post.

Unless I hear otherwise or some third party pokes in saying "ooh can I join", We'll be sticking with who we have - Shayuri, Fenris, Ruik, and probably Flesh.


----------



## Fenris (Sep 17, 2011)

Jemal said:


> C: Chicken or Egg?





BTW, Egg of course.


----------



## Jemal (Sep 21, 2011)

well, got confirmation from Flesh that he'll be rejoining us.  I've got stuff planned for tonight but the start's mostly ready, it should be up before I go back to work tommorow.  If not, I'll get it up asap, just keep your eyes open.


----------



## Myth and Legend (Sep 21, 2011)

Hey Jemal, I remember you ran the Legends game, back when I was brand new to PbP (lol at me, jumping in an Epic game with no knowledge). You also hosted that awesome "interplannar academy in 3.5" concept before going away (shame on you!)

Before I read on the whole character creation stuffe etc. can you tell me:

1. Are you looking for players?
2. How far along is this in progression?
3. What is your goal for this game as a DM?

I saw you restricted casting whcih IMO is the only way to have any semblance of balance in an ECL40 game. However there are still things that can break the game, such as magic items, artifacts, Leadership, specific races (with Su abilities) etc.

So, now with no casting and no ToB allowed, I suppose I can finally play a Barb/Frenzied Berzerker/Bear Warrior/War Shaper/Something or other, actually the build is inspired by that one NPC you had in the Legends game.

I could also go for an assassin type character with SA but you'd probably disallow the actual Assassin class as it can cast spells (and some from the SC are very good). What about Shadow Dancer? The added mobility in a game where we can't teleport/fly/blink/abrupt jaunt around the battle field would be nice. Feats like Craven etc. can make for a good SA focused character.

Oh as a matter of fact, being an Epic game, how will we handle large-scale logistics and mobility? At this level everything should be flying around I suppose.

Oh, in a non-magic ECL 40 game I actually thing the most broken (non- Hulkin Hurler) build would be a simple Ubercharger. I can get him to do 4000-5000 damage per round easily, would that be something you'd want or not? (that is totally possible by using only melee, non-magical classes and some cheap equpment. A valorous lance and anklets of translocation is the only thing I need actually)


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (Sep 24, 2011)

Howdy all. I'm back from the grave. Damn computer broke and now that I have  anew one I can get on with some form of regularity again. Sadly all of my DMing notes are gone, and despite numerous attempts at trying to rewrite it, it seems I've hit a mental block and completely forgotten where I was going with my campaign. 

But I'm still good to go as a PC if you'll have me again when this restarts. I do enjoy playing epic.


----------



## Ruiktheforgotten (Sep 26, 2011)

so......how bout that campaign mr dm........


----------



## Jemal (Sep 29, 2011)

I've had one day off since my last post, so It's been a bit of a busy week(and my Co-dm is unlikely to be joining us, so its down to just me), but I figured since I go back to work again in.. 14 hours, I should get this up before I do.  The starting post is what takes the most effort, so once its going I'll be able to keep up with the game despite work.

The IC thread is Ready, and as some of you may know, I like to start off with a bang.  
http://www.enworld.org/forum/playing-game/312098-gaming-w-jemal-war-gods-pt-1-a.html


Dharuhk - You're welcome to rejoin.


Myth - We actually hadn't started the game proper yet, we were doing an 'acid test'  to test the characters combat potentials so I knew how to design encounters against them.  I'm just starting up the first actual IC post (To Be Linked Above).

If you'd like to join, I'd be OK with that, but since I won't be able to acid-test your character, I'll need to give him/her/it a thorough going over and would like to know what his 'maximum potential' is. (IE how high can you get your AC/Attacks/Damage/etc when the character really tries).

As far as Ubercharger, I specifically dislike that type of build, and on similar lines,  I've stated many times to the others that I run of the ideal of MAD - I try to restrain myself to using things no more powerful than the PC's are, but as soon as a PC breaks out something, I consider it fair game.
Basically, I design my encounters to challenge my PC's rather than just going "the book says this is a CR 40, so you fight it".  If one of the pc's can deal thousands of damage, then I'll have enemies that can stand up to that, and return the favour.  
Your call if you want to bring that upon the party, but I doubt they'd be very happy with you if you did.  I prefer it when the party lies within a fair shot of each other in power level - some are more defensive, some more offensive, some have great utility, etc, but everybody has their place and none are so over-powered that they can 'do it themselves'.
To quote from myself earlier in this thread: 
Don't be too worried about keeping in line with the other players, everyone SHOULD have their own unique strengths and weaknesses, just don't go overboard on pumping something. If any of your Attack/AC/Saves numbers has three digits, for example, it's probably too high...
Unless you can all swing such numbers in which case - Sweet, I can take off the gloves and throw the paragon pseudonatural half-draconic 3-headed tarrasquelich at you guys.  j/k... mostly.


MY goal as a DM is the same it always is - to run a campaign I'd like to play in, where everybody (Myself included) has a challenging and enjoyable time telling a story together.   As to the specifics for this game, and the specific story I'm aiming for this time, I'd suggest reading my first few posts in the thread.  



> So, now with no casting and no ToB allowed, I suppose I can finally play a Barb/Frenzied Berzerker/Bear Warrior/War Shaper/Something or other, actually the build is inspired by that one NPC you had in the Legends game.
> 
> I could also go for an assassin type character with SA but you'd probably disallow the actual Assassin class as it can cast spells (and some from the SC are very good). What about Shadow Dancer? The added mobility in a game where we can't teleport/fly/blink/abrupt jaunt around the battle field would be nice. Feats like Craven etc. can make for a good SA focused character.
> 
> Oh as a matter of fact, being an Epic game, how will we handle large-scale logistics and mobility? At this level everything should be flying around I suppose.



All of that sounds fine.  Flight and/or speed enhancement is of course suggested, but not required (At least by me.. it's up to the party how they feel about other characters slowing them down/limiting their mobility).  I also highly suggest some form of fast healing to recover between encounters.  It can take a long time to recover 1000 HP of damage without magical intervention.


----------



## Myth and Legend (Sep 29, 2011)

This is very tempting. But I should lay off and just run the one game I came back to finish. Good gaming to you all however


----------



## Jemal (Oct 6, 2011)

I'm going to hold off on updating for another day or two in case anybody hasn't posted yet, or in case anybody who HAS posted wishes to change their actions in light of other players responses.


----------



## Jemal (Oct 10, 2011)

Well I think that's long enough, had planned to post Sunday, but got a bit too drunk at my aunt's wedding Saturday. 

Anyways, writing IC update now, should be up soon, so whatever's currently posted will be your actions.


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (Oct 10, 2011)

btw, I am fine keeping my actions to a narrative at this point. Anything to keep the game running smoothly. I'll be keeping with the same actions until something changes anyways.

In terms of Ruik's speed, you are also off on your calculations. He is a barbarian, which makes his base land speed 10 faster (so he would move 210), and he is packing wings of flying (which would allow him to fly at 230ft).

Also I suppose I just want to mention, I knew epic speed did not get doubled by boots of swiftness, but it seems a bit harsh to me that it would negate the bonus from it entirely (I always assumed it just added on after the doubling). Though from what I can tell it is technically accurate, I'm just saying it seems a little... I dunno... strict. 

I guess it all goes back to epic D&D hates monks. Buy boots of swiftness and wings of flying and all of a sudden any base 30ft movement character goes as fast as a 31st level straight monk (or a level 22 monk with wings of flying, but still, devoted speed class vs absolutely no investment... it doesn't seem to match up in my eyes.)


----------



## Myth and Legend (Oct 11, 2011)

You're talking as if somehow pre-Epic Monks actually do something (worst class out of Core and second worst in the whole of 3.5)

BTW there is an item in the MiC called Cloak of the Phoenix - it grants an unlimited flight per day for 50k gp. It has restrictions on maneuverability however.


----------



## ishalleatyourflesh (Oct 11, 2011)

i'm sorry, i'm sorry, i'm here now. my job's had me busy. i'll start posting Aussir shortly


----------



## Jemal (Oct 14, 2011)

Will be posting IC update in the next couple days.


----------



## Jemal (Oct 17, 2011)

IC Update is up.

Also, Flesh, since the Frenzy thing is bothering you so much, just replace them with normal Rages as Barbarian.


----------



## Dharuhk Svahre (Oct 23, 2011)

alrighty, so I was going through my numbers and found out my listed speeds are all wrong. Don't know what I was smoking at the time, or it could have been since I was overwriting my other character, but whats done is done. Heres my new numbers.

Land: 30 Base + 10 Barb + 15 Dervish = 55 x2 = 110ft
Fly (Raptoran): 40 Base + 15 Dervish = 55 x2 = 110ft
Fly (Wings): 60 Base + 15 Dervish = 75 x2 = 150ft


----------



## Jemal (Oct 26, 2011)

Will be posting IC update sometime within the next day.


----------



## Shayuri (Oct 26, 2011)

Jemal...I'm unclear on something.

Is there anything else in the city nearby Setis that might be of interest to a druid? Say...rare species of plant or animal on display, or perhaps a trove of druidic knowledge passed down on bark scrolls?

Also, does the Cubic Gate had to be present at the portal's location to mtaintain it, or can Setis roam a bit with the portal still open?


----------



## Jemal (Oct 29, 2011)

Alright, Posting was delayed but I'm working on it today, so it will be up before I go to bed.

Shayuri - To answer your questions, Yes you can roam, but the Cube itself has to stay near the portal.
And yes there likely would be Druidic relics/writings around, as there would relics of all sorts, this being basically the 'capital' of humanoid civilization on the Prime.  If something had been posted earlier I would've allowed more to come of it, but the city scene has been stagnant, nothing's really happening so I'm ending this section.  I'll have Setis find something, but it won't be anything really big(Probably).  Better luck next time.

On a related note, as this IS an Epic campaign, I hope for some input from the players and their characters as to how the world is shaped and what important things may be happening.. I don't mean that I want you designing encounters or telling the story, but your characters are some of the most powerful/important beings in the world, nexus' of power around whom things tend to happen.  Don't just wait for them to happen.  And don't be afraid to insert stuff, unless you start making huge changes, I'll be able to work it in - I'm adaptive if nothing else, and I really enjoy when Players have ideas that make me change something in the game.

Shayuri's question just now, for example, is the kind of thing I was hoping for - showing initiative, just a bit late this time.  Who knows though, what Setis finds could turn out to be an important part of the plot - And I hadn't even planned on putting it into the game until now. 


Important Information: 
With that in mind, After each section/chapter/combat, or after a particularly good role playing stint, I will be giving Fate Points to characters who I feel did something noteworthy (Keeping in mind that they ARE Epic, and thus held to a different level of 'noteworthy' than most), or that helped to advance the story.  VERY Occasionally, I will give a Fate point out of order just b/c somebody did something TRULY EPIC that needs rewarding.

Fate points will have several uses, primary among them being that once a character has accumulated 5 or more, they will be able to start unlocking powers simliar to Divine Beings.
Other uses: 
Fate points can be used (Temporary, regenerating when a character rests) to gain a reroll (Like the clerical luck domain), or to have something happen that the Player wants to happen (Within reason, and provided it is not against the good of the story) IE A player could use it to 'find' a clue when he's stuck on a puzzle, or discover a weakness in an apparently unbeatable foe.

Fate points can be permanently spent (Burnt) to do one of the following: 
Cast Wish or Miracle as a full-round action without spending XP. (DM still has final say, but I will be much more lenient on Wishes used like this, since Fate is a very powerful resource.)
Gain half a level of XP.
Gain a Non-epic Magical Item *can be added on to a current Item if slot is required*. (DM has final say on allowed Items.  If i disallow the item you will retain the Fate point)

So basically you can keep them and build up towards 'divine' power (rather an alternative to Divine Power.  ), or expend them to increase your Mortal powers or make your life a little easier.

*All of this information will be edited into the main Post.*


Characters who've earned a Fate point for the City Scene.
Setis, Elle


----------



## Jemal (Nov 25, 2011)

Been Busy & Not sleeping well lately, will catch up when I can.


----------



## Jemal (Jan 6, 2012)

Will probably be another day or two before I get a good post up for this game, hopefully with Dec. over things'll pick up a bit once we start rolling.


----------



## Jemal (Jan 18, 2012)

UGh, sorry folks, thought I'd be getting more time but I haven't, I may have to put this on hold for a while longer, but I do intend to continue.


----------



## Jemal (Mar 11, 2012)

alright, I'm at the point where I'm keeping up with everything including pbp games, so now that I'm fairly certain I'll have the time for it, let's see if people are interested in getting this back up.  There will have to be some changes, specifically I've figured out some minor  retconning to make things a bit more linear so you guys don't have as much trouble deciding what to do next.

It'll be more structured, and I'll be able to keep the main story/plot I had planned.  If you guys get more comfortable with the game and wish to break into more freeform later that'll still be an option.

So, who wishes to continue after our few months break?


----------



## Ruiktheforgotten (Mar 12, 2012)

Me!me!me!me!me!me!me!me!me!me!me!


----------



## Shayuri (Mar 13, 2012)

Hragh. I'm not sure how I feel about taking on another game. I like War of the Gods, but it's definitely a high-maintenance game, since I have to keep track of a large amount of info in order to make posts.

Not impossible, but I am cautious it might cause my posting in other games to suffer. Give me some time to think it over.


----------



## Jemal (Mar 17, 2012)

Going Twice..


----------



## Fenris (Mar 27, 2012)

Jemal said:


> Going Twice..




Here!


----------

