# Battlestar Galactica:Season 2; Part 4 NSCR/8.5.05



## Truth Seeker (Aug 5, 2005)

"Resistance", Episode #204. 

Tigh's imposition of martial law threatens to split the fleet. 

Cast: *Edward James Olmos, Mary McDonnell, Katee Sackhoff, Jamie Bamber, James Callis, Tricia Helfer, Grace Park. *

Commentary:Last week's show, "Fragged" touched off some unseen buttons, with certain individuals, while talking about the actions produced within the story. Just remember, it is just a story. Nothing more, nothing less.​ 
Granted, this forum exist to illustrate our ideas, input and conjectures on what is done in the BSG episodes, and granted...all the dark corners that we know that exist within human nature, are getting exploited to the ninth degree. 

Bottom line, it is one of a few sci-fic shows, that makes you think in these rare days. But as for last week's thread, now *closed*, due to nitpicking and misquoting of other's people conversations. The show's purpose to bring some enlighten and thought provoking talk, did its job, that was the intent. 

Now there is another job left to us...the viewers and the speakers here, who wish to discuss further, the ramifications that take place on that ragged-tagged fleet of humans, just trying to survive. 

DON'T FRACK up these discussions...I just scanned the closed thread done by *Mod. Plane Sailing* and saw what he was talking about. He _requested a quieter tone_ about "Fragged" and as he put it...his request was ignored. 

Now I have a request; Keep it plain and civil, for the time being. I know, I know...there are somethings that will get touchy about this show, and yes, you are correct. *Roger Moore* and staff, will not be letting up, that much is felt right now. And honestly...they are just doing their job with the great cast on hand. 

I also know, that some people didn't mean for it to go that far, but far it did...and I am not happy about it. But at the same time, I'm happy about it, cause again, the show is making people think, but sometimes, too much...no, not enough of it, can cause disharmony. 

Please check what you said here, for the future, I do mean that, or my particaption with these threads will be curtailed if my request is *not* thought upon. 

Thank You
Truth*Blunt*Seeker.
Commentary Ends.


Now...with the martial law enacted, how much Fracking Frack can it get? Oh, correction on last week's quote :Mother Fracker

This week quote; Six to Giaus, Now...you are a man.


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## The_Universe (Aug 5, 2005)

Between this and Arrested Development reruns on fox, it's a good night for TV!


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## Thornir Alekeg (Aug 5, 2005)

Truth Seeker said:
			
		

> This week quote; Six to Guas, Now...you are a man.




Heh.  I just watched last weeks episode last night. I knew that was what Six meant by "Be a Man."  My wife didn't agree until he should the Lt.

 I am disappointed that the thread from last week was closed.  I was really hoping to be able to respond to a couple of great thoughts, _ not _ about civilian/military authority.  

I love the idea that Adama may in fact be the leader and that things like vipers may the the "snakes".  While Adama may not be dying of a wasting disease right now, who's to say something won't develop later?  

As for the provisioning and recruiting issues, I would like to see episodes taking up that issue from time to time. People are going to have to learn new skills and jobs that are critical to survival, not just military recruiting.  And I could see them attempting to convert ships, or portions of ships to food production.  As for abandoning ships, that could be another interesting aspect to look at as the series progresses.  I don't think they really cannot afford to abandon ships since I don't have the impression they have a lot of extra capacity.  I could see that as being a tough decision, and worst case would be a ship broken up for parts and materials.  

OK, enough about last week, on to the new episode.


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## Volaran (Aug 6, 2005)

This is just a thought, and likely not well considered, but there seem to be benefits in the long term for Tigh declaring martial law.  Not from martial law itself, mind you.

He's very clearly not someone who does well in a political arena.  I remember Ron Moore pointing out in the podcast for Valley of Darkness that Tigh is someone you'd want at your back in a crisis, like the cylons boarding, but he isn't suited for the political aspects of command, and he knows this.

By imposing martial law after specifically telling the press that Adama wouldn't, it seems like he's put Adama in a much better place once he begins to recover.  What started as an Adama vs Roslin problem, and seems to have been on the way to becoming a civillian vs military issue, could well end up being a civillian government vs Tigh issue.

As long as Tigh is the figurehead people see causing problems, it seems to me that it will be much easier for Adama to assist in restoring power to the civillians, and Roslin without losing too much face in the eyes of the civillians.  

I'm not sure if this is Tigh's intention, but I do like him as a character, and he seems to be a man who knows his flaws.  If he is purposly attempting to take the brunt of public outcry, and thus protect the Old Man, it would seem to fit well with the theme of their friendship that has come up in the last few episodes.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Aug 6, 2005)

Gaius put her up to it.  Not sure how, but I'm sure he did, to cover his tracks.  I'm also kinda worried about Baltar in general - he's starting to take charge, and that cannot be good.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 6, 2005)

At the moment...the only thing I can say is...holy frack.


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## jhallum (Aug 6, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> At the moment...the only thing I can say is...holy frack.




Yeah, I think that about covers it.  I would also say that next week looks like it shows where the Old Man's sympathies lie in all of this.


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## dravot (Aug 6, 2005)

Who all saw the end as Jack Ruby/Lee Harvey Oswald all over again?


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## Kid Charlemagne (Aug 6, 2005)

dravot said:
			
		

> Who all saw the end as Jack Ruby/Lee Harvey Oswald all over again?




No question about it.

I found the blood drips interesting - an indication that the Cylons and humans are not that far from each other?

8 agents, eh?


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## cignus_pfaccari (Aug 6, 2005)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> 8 agents, eh?




But did she just toss that out there, or was it true?  After all, Baltar had no way of  knowing.

Also, how long until someone starts on the "Cally is a cylon!" schtick?  (20 seconds?  30?)

Brad


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## ecliptic (Aug 6, 2005)

It's time for Adama to lay the smack down on Roslin and her attempt of splitting the forces.

I see Adama fully backing Tigh's decisions.

I could see one of two things happening. One, forcing the entire fleet to split apart. Those loyal to Roslin going their own way and those loyal to Adama going theirs. Two causing an outright civil war losing thousands of civilians. Roslin is acting on her belief that she is somehow a profit and it is literally destroying the fleet. 

Apollo disreguarded his agreement of parole. Tigh should have destroyed the shuttle.

This entire thing smells of cylon meddling.


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## dravot (Aug 6, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> This entire thing smells of cylon meddling.



Nah.  Humans don't need the cylons to frack up their situation.  They can do quite nicely on their own.


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## DM_Matt (Aug 6, 2005)

So is Gata trying to draw out the Indian-looking girl (forgot her name) by lying to Tigh about the secret communications in front of her, is is he also on Roslin's side?


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 6, 2005)

DM_Matt said:
			
		

> So is Gata trying to draw out the Indian-looking girl (forgot her name) by lying to Tigh about the secret communications in front of her, is is he also on Roslin's side?



 I think he's on D's side, but not necessarily on the Roslin's.

I've liked Cally's character from the very start, and man did she jump out into this one. Next week's going to be good...even if Adama wanted to pull things together, its pretty much impossible now.


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## John Crichton (Aug 6, 2005)

Mmmm.  Loyalties divided.  Good stuff.

I particularly enjoyed the scene where Billy couldn't stomach going along with Roslin and the escape plan.  He's such a simple a loyal guy (one of the few on the show) and that act really spoke to *how* bad things have gotten and will get.

When the Old Man starts picking up the pieces and seeing the fingerprints he's gonna be awfully pissed at many people.  He's lost Starbuck and he's lost his son so essentially his family is missing or simply lost to him.  I really can't wait to see how he responds to all this.  I'll continue to say it:  he's the heart of the show (not to mention the fleet) and it revolves around him.  Say what you will about politics (I won't as it's not my arena) but when the heart stops beating, the rest of the ship and fleet essentially started shutting down.

I also enjoyed the scenes on Caprica.  It makes sense that there would be a few other survivors, I guess.  Anyway, the explanation was good enough for me.  It will be interesting to see how the new troops will be used and how many (if any) will make it back to Galatica.  I could see Starbuck coming back with (let's say) half of them and their loyalties.  Could be interesting to add another faction to the mix.

As for the overall show, I have some pretty good ideas of what I like about it but it's nice that other notions are not so easily dismissed.  I like TV that makes me think a little.


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## sensate (Aug 6, 2005)

cignus_pfaccari said:
			
		

> But did she just toss that out there, or was it true?  After all, Baltar had no way of  knowing.
> 
> Also, how long until someone starts on the "Cally is a cylon!" schtick?  (20 seconds?  30?)
> 
> Brad





Notice that before Boomer gives up the number of Cylons that Baltar is countion down from 10.  He got to nine and then Boomer shouted out "Eight!". Sounds to me like she was just guessing.  

How would she know anyway.  The Ceylons couldn't have know which ships would survive the initial onslaught or who would which survivors would end up where.  I think they had many sleeper agents all over the colonies and some of them just happened to end up with the survivors.


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## Wolf72 (Aug 6, 2005)

I liked how Adama gently told Tigh that his wife has no place offering any kind of advice.

next week looks to be interesting.

I hope Starbuck and Helo bring some reinforcements for Galactica ...

I wonder if Baltar will use Boomer for experiments?


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## dravot (Aug 6, 2005)

Wolf72 said:
			
		

> I liked how Adama gently told Tigh that his wife has no place offering any kind of advice.



That was awesome, and so true.



			
				Wolf72 said:
			
		

> I wonder if Baltar will use Boomer for experiments?



I'm fairly certain that she's dead.

I was pretty confused by Baltar's blackmail of Boomer (by using Tyrol), and his admission to her that he let her go on purpose, but I think I understand now.  Baltar felt cornered by Tigh's accusations and needs an out, and now he knows how many scapegoats to find.

As a followup, he either guessed at Callie's behavior, or he prompted her to do the shooting, to remove Boomer from the equation.

As a side note: someone on TWOP said that the guy who plays Billy is up for a part on a new WB show, so they needed a way to exit him gracefully from the storyline if he moves to the other show.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 6, 2005)

Cool.   Can the cylon on BSG just be re-booted if you refill her blood, plug a few holes, and then shoot some current thru her?  Were we supposed to generate some sympathy for her? 

I'm glad Adama is back, he does look like he is going to support Tigh's basic command, if probably not all his decisions.  Were the crew that helped the President escape disloyal to Tigh or loyal to the Pres(we know the answer for a few)?  How long until Tom Zarek tries to have Roslin killed?  And you know she is going to go out and whip up massive support from the civilians and Adama is going to comprimise command with her again.  How does this all get fixed without some good characters getting written out of the show? 

Just watched the preview for next week...Interesting.

Oh, and man is Tigh's wife a P.O.S.  I was thinking when they started slapping each other around and getting hot "what a couple of pathetic wrecks!".


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## LightPhoenix (Aug 6, 2005)

What I found highly interesting is that Tigh really _isn't_ a bad commanding officer - he's shown time and time again that he actually does have the ability to do it, he just needs a bit more confidence in himself.  For example, his plan to get all the captains together and explain his decision - spot on.  Then he lets people tell him he doesn't know what to do, caves in to t he pressure, and all of the sudden he's on the bottle, making a mess of things.

The scene with Baltar and Valerri I really didn't see coming.  Zarek, sure, know he'd be there.  I was pretty sure Billy wouldn't go with the President.  I knew Callie was going to do something rash as soon as she started beating up that guy.  But Baltar using Tyrol to get information, and his whole clinical, detached manner beforehand... damn.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 6, 2005)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> What I found highly interesting is that Tigh really _isn't_ a bad commanding officer - he's shown time and time again that he actually does have the ability to do it, he just needs a bit more confidence in himself.  For example, his plan to get all the captains together and explain his decision - spot on.  Then he lets people tell him he doesn't know what to do, caves in to t he pressure, and all of the sudden he's on the bottle, making a mess of things.




Yeah, if he hadn't gotten his wife back I think he, and the fleet, would be in a lot better shape.


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## Red Spire Press (Aug 6, 2005)

Another great episode. Gritty, intense, and desperate. I was also glad to finally see some new faces on Caprica. 

A couple things bugged me though. During the Cylons' attack, we saw nukes going off everywhere. Yet no where in the city was there any blast damage, wreckage, glassed areas, or anything of the sort. Just the pretty over-exposed camera effect. What exactly did the Cylons nuke? The wilderness?? Also, i wish the producers had spent some of their considerable budget on unique personal weapon models. Was it my imagination or was Starbuck dual wielding Uzis? The hummer in the last episode also bothered me. Of course, there are supposed to be huge parallels between BSGers and us, but I'd rather not see direct references.


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## Steve Jung (Aug 7, 2005)

Could have been neutron bombs. They kill living things, but leave structures intact. As far as the weapons go, I believe Helo had an Uzi and Starbuck was dual-wieling Skorpions.


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## Elf Witch (Aug 7, 2005)

I found a lot of this episode predictable as soon as Tigh sent in troops I knew that someone in one of the boarding parties was going to open fire. Saw that Boomer was going to get shot. 

That by the way was so stupid I would have thought that considering the hositility the crew felt for Boomer that they would have cleared the hallways before moving her. It was obivious something bad was going to happen.

I still think Starbuck is a b**ch. She is just so unpleasant. And of course she is not only the best pilot ,shot fill in the blank but she can win a pyrmid match against a pro. Oh yeah right she could have played pro but for her bum knee. She is such a Mary Sue type character.

I like Lee and Roslin they are my favorite characters. They have honor and the courage to do what is best for everyone. I don't see Adama or Tigh doing this. I have read that some people consider Adama the heart of the show. I don't see it. I think Roslin is.  

I do tend to find some of the cyclons to have more humanity then their creators.


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## John Crichton (Aug 7, 2005)

Elf Witch said:
			
		

> I like Lee and Roslin they are my favorite characters. They have honor and the courage to do what is best for everyone. I don't see Adama or Tigh doing this. I have read that some people consider Adama the heart of the show. I don't see it. I think Roslin is.



One of them was me, about 10 posts up. 

Roslin isn't the heart, she's the soul.

He represents reality, survival at all costs and the straightforward thinking of a man who has already lived life and will continue to do so. He's set in his ways and made his mistakes. The show will prove if he has learned from them or not.  He also knows how people tick and how to make that work for the situation at hand.  He is their best bet to make it through alive.  He knows how to command and how to delegate.

Roslin is (and must be) a similiar character but cut from a different mold. She represents hope, freedom and spirit. She, too, is set in her ways but as someone who has lived around politics her entire life she is learning more and more about the abstract as she goes. And as someone who knows she's going to die soon she has an air of recklessness and confidence that only one who has accepted death can have.

So, yes - Adama is the heart but the heart is nothing without the soul and vice versa.


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## ecliptic (Aug 7, 2005)

Roslin is just a train wreck. From the point where she wanted military as police to the time she organized the theft of an important piece of military equipment needed for a vital mission to keep the human race alive. What's next for her? Incite a religious civil war and bring the destruction of many civilian lives and maybe the entire human race? She is bound to determine to go down in flames and bring the entire human race with her. This time even her most loyal subject could not stomach her actions.


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## Steel_Wind (Aug 7, 2005)

I don't see this talk of Adama losing his son. His son is not "lost" he is a few ships over, assisting the President after Tigh declared Martial law, dissolved the Quorum of 12 and brought the human race to the brink of civil war.

Roslin said that she saw where it was going - ships would break off from the fleet and try to go it alone and the human race would be destroyed - easy pickings for Cylons a few ships at a time.

She was absolutely right.  

As for Tigh, his own officers of the watch conspired to let the President go.

So who is to blame for all of this?

Adama is to blame.  He arrested the President. He is the quintessential military man who values loyalty above logic. Colonel Tigh has no place being the executive officer of the Galactica. He never did. 

Eight agents? Don't know about that - but I never accepted that Tigh's wife was *not* a cylon and I am becoming more convinced of it with every episode we see her manipulate him into doing the exact wrong thing.

Their barfly scene was interesting though!


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## Red Spire Press (Aug 7, 2005)

Wasn't it said early on in Season 1 that there are 8 human models? Regardless, I highly doubt Tigh's wife is a cylon. She's just a manipulative evil munchkin.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 7, 2005)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Adama is to blame.  He arrested the President. He is the quintessential military man who values loyalty above logic.




But he arrested her because she was the reason Starbuck ran off and stole the Raider. He had good reason to do so. If you want to track everything like you're doing, blame it on Roslin's doctor back on Caprica for telling her she had cancer...because without that, no drugs, no visions(as far as we know, at least), no telling Starbuck to get to Caprica, no getting arrested, etc. 



> Colonel Tigh has no place being the executive officer of the Galactica. He never did.




Strongly disagree with this. Near the start of the first season, I would have agreed...but since then, we've seen Tigh as a strong, good leader who can do things just as well as Adama. His problems have kicked in when his wife appeared, and then she kicks back his drinking. I've said it time and time again drinking + wife = screwed up Tigh. Take those two away and he's a great officer.



			
				Red Spire Press said:
			
		

> Wasn't it said early on in Season 1 that there are 8 human models?



 12 Models.


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## LightPhoenix (Aug 7, 2005)

Elf Witch said:
			
		

> That by the way was so stupid I would have thought that considering the hositility the crew felt for Boomer that they would have cleared the hallways before moving her. It was obivious something bad was going to happen.




I don't think they really cared.  I don't think they were really going to keep Boomer alive.  The only information they got from her was through Baltar, by almost killing a human.  Even with such an extreme act, she couldn't provide anything more useful than a number.  Dead, they can dissect her and learn a helluva lot more about the human-form Cylons than they could alive.



> I still think Starbuck is a b**ch. She is just so unpleasant. And of course she is not only the best pilot ,shot fill in the blank but she can win a pyrmid match against a pro. Oh yeah right she could have played pro but for her bum knee. She is such a Mary Sue type character.




A lot of people have expressed this sentiment, and I don't necessarily disagree.  I think the intention is that there _were_ better people at all of those things out there.  They just all died when the Cylons attacked - I'm sure they struck military targets first.  Starbuck is no doubt a very talented officer, and her ability to do most things better than average, especially with most of the humans dead, makes her better than most.  I don't think the show has done a good job of explaining that, but that's the impression I got.

Also, IMO they gave the impression that the "pro" she played wasn't actually that good.


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## John Crichton (Aug 7, 2005)

About Starbuck...



			
				LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> A lot of people have expressed this sentiment, and I don't necessarily disagree. I think the intention is that there _were_ better people at all of those things out there. They just all died when the Cylons attacked - I'm sure they struck military targets first. Starbuck is no doubt a very talented officer, and her ability to do most things better than average, especially with most of the humans dead, makes her better than most. I don't think the show has done a good job of explaining that, but that's the impression I got.



Interesting way to look at it.  I basically agree.  She may come off as being nearly the best at everything but the show has most certainly shown us that she is a train-wreck of a human being.  She barely feels joy at any time.  She got her first love killed.  She screws up every single personal relationship (friend and family) she's ever had (betrayed the Adama's a few times now).

So, best at everything?  I think not.  The show needs to have someone who can just about always get the job done but that character gets to suffer in the process.  I meant, c'mon - she hasn't even gotten to dogfight in a raptor for nearly 10 eps now.



			
				LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Also, IMO they gave the impression that the "pro" she played wasn't actually that good.



I certainly got that impression.  I also got the strong impression that the two of them have a nice set of sexual tension going.  The game was just her way of flirting.  Girl certainly doesn't play by the rules.


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## John Crichton (Aug 7, 2005)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> So who is to blame for all of this?
> 
> Adama is to blame. He arrested the President. He is the quintessential military man who values loyalty above logic. Colonel Tigh has no place being the executive officer of the Galactica. He never did.



Um, actually the Cylons are to blame for all of this.  

The show is much smarter that "it's X's fault."  Roslin knew darn well that she was risking her credibility by sending Starbuck on that mission.  She knew that it would spark Adama into a situation and put them at direct odds.  So who's "fault" is it for the current situation?  Everyone's fault.  They are at war and on the run.  It's bound to happen.  Both leaders want the best for humanity but they have different ways about doing it.  When they work together they are at their best but that's not going to happen anytime soon.


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## Safana Cain (Aug 7, 2005)

I don't really get people's thing with Starbuck.  She's just like the original, only a woman.  Is that it - a woman in what is traditionally a man's role?  Otherwise she seems like a really fun, if ugly, woman and a true warrior spirit.

Man, I was hoping Adama would set everything straight when he got up, but the preview doesn't seem to indicate this.


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## Vigilance (Aug 7, 2005)

Elf Witch said:
			
		

> I still think Starbuck is a b**ch. She is just so unpleasant. And of course she is not only the best pilot ,shot fill in the blank but she can win a pyrmid match against a pro. Oh yeah right she could have played pro but for her bum knee. She is such a Mary Sue type character.




Well, her being a top notch athlete doesn't seem that unrealistic to me, especially not in a sport that requires hand eye coordination.

She's a top gun pilot. The physical requirements to be a jet pilot disqualify most immediately. 

Hand-eye coordination, reflex speed, reaction time... a top pilot like her basically *is* a professional athlete. 

Chuck


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## Elf Witch (Aug 7, 2005)

Safana Cain said:
			
		

> I don't really get people's thing with Starbuck.  She's just like the original, only a woman.  Is that it - a woman in what is traditionally a man's role?  Otherwise she seems like a really fun, if ugly, woman and a true warrior spirit.
> 
> Man, I was hoping Adama would set everything straight when he got up, but the preview doesn't seem to indicate this.




No she is not. The only thing they have in common is that they are both pilots and they smoke cigars. The male Starbuck was charming and did not go out of his way to insult people like the new one does. He was not a train wreck on relentonships either he maintained one with Cassie and even with Athena. He never betrayed or hurt Adama. 

They are nothing alike.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Aug 7, 2005)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> I don't think they really cared.  I don't think they were really going to keep Boomer alive.  The only information they got from her was through Baltar, by almost killing a human.  Even with such an extreme act, she couldn't provide anything more useful than a number.  Dead, they can dissect her and learn a helluva lot more about the human-form Cylons than they could alive.




Except that they already have two dead anthroform Cylons on board...the guy from the space station that Adama killed, and bits of the one that blew himself up in the beginning of the witch hunt episode.

Of course, a live one to study is potentially much more useful.  But, at the same time, it's going to be incredibly dangerous, too.  The anthroforms seem to be much tougher and stronger than baseline humans, such that examining even a subdued, cooperative one like Boomer would put any techs at incredible risk.  After all, at some point, the underlying Cylon might come out to play and rip the techs' heads off.

Odds are, then, that the best (if ickiest) way of getting useful information about a live anthroform is to do quite a bit of vivisection.

Brad


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Aug 7, 2005)

About Cylon numbers:
8 remaining Cylons aboard the Fleet make sense, I think. 
There are supposed to be 12 models. The fleet does already know the models Boomer, Shelley Goodfrey, Leoben and Doral, that means 12-4 = 8. The only way to identify a Cylon now is either by a working Cylon Detector (that is not manipulated by Baltar) or by him doing something to directly identify him by actions. Comparing photos will fail then...

I still doubt Tigh´s wife is a Cylon - unless maybe Moore & co have decided that the humans "great gift" is murder, and the Cylons gift is manipulation and deciption. I tend to think both are human talents (at least if I am in a cynical mood, which luckily doesn´t happen to often). 
I hope Cally is not a Cylon, and I don´t believe so, especially since she now will be in trouble...

About Adama and Roslin:
I think both have good reasons for their actions, and unfortunately, only one of them can be right. Either there are gods, the prophecies are true, and Roslins plans must be followed while Adama has to step back behind her, or she is mad and has to step down and Adama has (or had) all the right to force her to step down. 
But there is a way out of this, though it´s a long way - both of them have to come to a mutual agreement that fighting each other will do no good, and have to reach a compromise between religious beliefs and military needs - how this would work exactly though is a lot more difficult to say. But I think if they can both work together, they will be a great team. 

About Starbuck:
The original Starbuck was basically the typical flawless hero of its time. His character would be boring by today´s standards - probably most wouldn´t simply care for such a character, and he wouldn´t add much in terms of the shows drama.
The new Starbuck is based on the old, except that she is no longer entirely flawless. She might be technically perfect (brilliant pilot, player, athleth and sniper), but she lacks in the personality and emotional department. This allows for some interesting dramatic developments, but unfortunately it leads also to a controversial character with unlikable attitudes. Personally, I like the new Starbuck, even with all her flaws.
Basically all of the original characters have been changed this way in the new Galactica, but for Starbuck it often seems more apparent, probably due to the kind of the flaws she has.

About the destruction on Caprica:
If I remember correctly, they noted in the mini-series that nuclear bombs were detonated in the upper atmosphere of the planets. I think the Cylons primarily relied on the radiation to kill the population, trying to keep the infrastructure in a good shape. 

Other aspects of the episode:
Finally we see some resistance on Caprica.


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## drothgery (Aug 8, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> About Starbuck...
> 
> {Starbuck and the pyramid player}
> 
> I certainly got that impression.  I also got the strong impression that the two of them have a nice set of sexual tension going.  The game was just her way of flirting.  Girl certainly doesn't play by the rules.




There was that. But Starbuck's going to take his band of rebels away from him, and I think the game was part of trying to get him to concede gracefully.


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## Fast Learner (Aug 8, 2005)

Did I mention that I find the Starbuck character to be very appealing (and hot)?


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## John Crichton (Aug 8, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> There was that. But Starbuck's going to take his band of rebels away from him, and I think the game was part of trying to get him to concede gracefully.



 I could see that happening.  She could try and work with them as they probably want off just as much as she does.  Some of them may have family still alive in the fleet.


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## Elf Witch (Aug 8, 2005)

maybe I am getting old but I don't agree that a hero like the old Starbuck would not work today. Why is that all our new heroes have to have so many flaws? There are still good mentally healthy people out here. 

But I have noticed that all the cool characters today have really bad flaws and issues. Like it is not cool to be a decent human being who does not have a chip on their shoulder or a problem getting along with people or they are some kind of addict.

Now there are characters that I think show their humanity Adama, Roslin, Tyrol and Apollo to name a few. But of course since it is today Adama and Apollo have to have issues.  

Drama and conflict are what makes a show compelling to watch I am not denying this.

This is one reason that I think stops me from really getting into the show as much as I would like to. When I watched it this week I kept calling Tigh "you F**king drunken idiot" and hoping some how he would fall and hit his head in a druken stupor. And yelling at Starbuck to just shut up for once. Oh that an hoping she would get shot.  

I will keep watching to see if I am right and the the real good guys are the cyclons that and to see how much they can possibly muck things up for themelves this week. Oh and to watch Richard Hatch who I have had a crush on since I was 12 years old.


----------



## Steel_Wind (Aug 8, 2005)

I rather think the Cylons great gift is guilt-free genocide.

The nerve of these things who come back out of nowhere - 40 years later - to nuke billions and billions of people and then accuse humanity of the sin of murder.

The gall of these critters is astonishing.

I do think, however, that a monolithic Cylon conspiracy is going to unravel as less than true.  There are factions within the Cylons as well. You don't make yourself flesh and stick with the Head Toasters evil schemes unchallenged.

The 12 copies are imperfect and some of them will prove disloyal. Whether it is conflicted loyalties to biological opffspring, fatal programming over human emotions (Sharon may be defective) or a misplaced zeal for religion - the Cylons are not all on the same page.

*******************

As for Starbuck, I really enjoy her character. I don't see the problems people here have over her. 

Great ensemble cast which appear to be working well with one another almost from the get-go.

No Star Trek ensemble - at anytime - was as gifted, deep and developed as this group of actors.  (And better scripts don't hurt either).

********************

What's up with Kobol?  Is there some damper on the planet which interferes with the Cylons sensors? Dead on Kobol prevents your soul form leaving?

What kind of crap is that? God, the creator of the universe and keeper of the afterlife is able to do much - but he has trouble over a planet? I don't think so. Maybe there are dampers which prevent a Cylon from jumping back to home base if they die there. Humans? I don't think so.

The Cylons do NOT have all the answers.


----------



## LightPhoenix (Aug 8, 2005)

Elf Witch said:
			
		

> maybe I am getting old but I don't agree that a hero like the old Starbuck would not work today. Why is that all our new heroes have to have so many flaws? There are still good mentally healthy people out here.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Drama and conflict are what makes a show compelling to watch I am not denying this.




The problem is convoluted, I think.

One problem is that morally strong, mentally healthy people are _extremely_ tough to write, without falling into a number of pitfalls.  They easily come off as boring, since they don't really have meaningful conflict.  Sure, you can say there's conflict, but if you know a character is strong enough to defeat it, it isn't meaningful, and thus boring.  Another easy pitfall is that they become preachy.  Various characters throughout Star Trek have this flaw in their writing.  Finally, I also think that such traits actually dehumanize the characters when written poorly, making them harder to relate to and thus harder to like.  Why?  Because most people out there have issues.  That doesn't mean they are morally bankrupt or mentally unstable, but no one is perfect.

Another problem is that of society, and this is two-fold.  For one, people like to see a hero fail.  It makes them feel better about their own inadequacies, perceived and/or real.  For another, society, at least in the US, is a bit more cynical and a bit more accepting of people having issues.  The internet has everyone communicating and sharing with relative anonymity, and what we're realizing is that these problems we think are unique aren't really uncommon at all.  Even thirty years ago, problems like this would be swept under the rug, and it was strongly frowned upon to be talking about them.  That's why OS-Starbuck is a perfect hero, and NS-Starbuck is so flawed as to barely be called a hero at all.  Also, the increase in cynicism leads to an increase in snarkiness and sarcasm.

Third, a series needs to go somewhere.  It needs movement, otherwise it stagnates.  In a character driven drama, which I don't think you'd disagree BSG counts as, that movement has to be through the characters.  A character who is morally and mentally strong and healthy doesn't have much room to grow at all.  Thus, any time spent on that character is stagnating the show, because there's no growth in the character, no change.  That quickly gets boring, and quickly loses viewers.  Now, if NS-Starbuck grows into that hero, that's a lot more interesting that starting her off there; it's a sense of movement and growth.

Now, does this necessarily all need to be because of character flaws?  Well, yes and no.  it really boils down to the basic premise of the show.  John Crichton on Farscape is a realtively unflawed character whose tension and growth come from other sources - being a fish out of water is the major one.  This works because Farscape is not really, IMO, character driven drama - at least not nearly to the extent BSG is.  Also, it works because of the premise - he's set up as not knowing anything, and being thrust into a new universe and sudden responsibility for it.  Firefly is the same way - it works because Simon and to a lesser extent Book and Jayne are from different cultures than the rest of the crew, and that creates conflict.  Again though, that's a function of a premise.  The premise of BSG is that humans started off in a relatively equal setting; what cultural differences there are between the colonies are de-emphasized when they're discussed at all, setting them up as being minor.  The vast majority of the crew is military.  The conflict that arises with Baltar (as the traitor) and Rosalyn (as the civilian) works without being too character driven, because they have something to go against.  Compare that to Tyrol, or Tigh, or Adama, or Starbuck, who don't have that.

All that said, I don't totally disagree with your gripe.  Especially with BSG, it seems to be carried to an extreme, especially with Tigh and Starbuck.  And the big conflict of military vs. civilian seems to get by far the most debate and discussion here on the boards.  Certainly more than Tigh's alcoholism or Starbuck's general moral/mental suckiness.  To cross shows again, Mal was one of the least interesting characters on Firefly, because the moral ambiguity tends to get old fast when there's other types of growth.  Types which I don't think BSG explores enough, over these huge character flaws.


----------



## LightPhoenix (Aug 8, 2005)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> What's up with Kobol? Is there some damper on the planet which interferes with the Cylons sensors? Dead on Kobol prevents your soul form leaving?




Ugh, I wanted to go to bed after that last post, but I read this and wanted to expand.

We know the Cylons transfer their consciousness when they die.  That could certainly be construed as a soul.  Perhaps there's some sort of interference that prevents the Cylons from transmitting that information - thus, their souls don't leave.  The Cylons seem to be under the impression the same applies to Humans, but they don't know how the Human soul works, so they take what they know (they perma-die on Kobol) and apply it to what they don't (do Humans perma-die on Kobol, or at all?).

It's the primary method by which people deal with the unknown, ripped straight from a psych textbook.


----------



## Storm Raven (Aug 8, 2005)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> We know the Cylons transfer their consciousness when they die.  That could certainly be construed as a soul.




We know they say they transfer their consciousness. We don't know if this actually happens. Like, for example, we know many people say (and believe) that their soul travels to the afterlife when they die, but we don't know if this is true or not.


----------



## Storm Raven (Aug 8, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> Roslin is just a train wreck. From the point where she wanted military as police to the time she organized the theft of an important piece of military equipment needed for a vital mission to keep the human race alive. What's next for her? Incite a religious civil war and bring the destruction of many civilian lives and maybe the entire human race? She is bound to determine to go down in flames and bring the entire human race with her.




Adama is bound and determined to go down in flames. He's tried before, purposely. The main difference in their perspective is that Roslin's objective is to find earth, while Adama's objective is to fight cylons. Adama's objective is, in the end, counterproductive to the survival of the fleet, since over the long run they can't win against the cylons.

Any civil war that takes place was incited by Adama and Tigh, when they overturned the Articles of Confederation to put themselves in charge. Adama even exposed the true reason for his hissy fit that caused him to arrest the President - he doesn't like having his decisions second guessed. Tigh proved absoluty incapable of command, unable to decide for himself what to do, and using an autocratic hand to try to get his way, when it was obvious that was a bad idea. Telling people they have no voice in how their affairs are conducted is a bad idea, and Adama and Tigh went straight to that as their first option when faced with a political crisis.



> _This time even her most loyal subject could not stomach her actions._





Except, of course, for Apollo, Dee, Gaeta, the prison guard, the soldiers who helped her escape, the pilot who helped Apollo get the raptor, the doctor, and the sentry she talked her way past. You know, a significant collection of soldiers who couldn't stomach sweeping aside the Articles of Colonization and imposing military rule.

Plus there are the civilians who don't want to live under a military dictatorship, and refused to help Tigh use Galactica to impose one. I think Tigh and Adama are going to have to back down, and look bad in the process. They certainly seem to have no problem backing Roslin against Tigh and Adama.


----------



## Fast Learner (Aug 8, 2005)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> The problem is convoluted, I think.
> 
> <snip>



Great post, LP, well-said.


----------



## Laurel (Aug 8, 2005)

I think Roslin is getting lots of support right now because it is her vs Tigh and his actions.  I don't think if Adama had been in command this would have gone down the same way.  Apollo and the others only acted when Tigh past the line of taking all rights away and not giving a glimpse that it could change back anytime soon.  As Apollo implied Tigh had become a dictator. That bit about this being the start of the honeymoon and what is a dictator to do.
It would have been interesting if Adama had woken up just moments later... would Apollo have still gone with the plan? etc.
Also, I don't think Billy said or implied I agree with Tigh, but instead was stating that he doesn't agree with how Rolsin's going about it.  Roslin has now acted directly against Tigh, and Billy knows her next step is to gather supporters to her against Tigh.  (I keep saying Tight since he is the leader at this point.) She will divide the fleet, and if the actor who plays Billy stays on BSG then billy can also act as the brain's and caution behind whatever happens next.
Gata I think is another on the border people. He is clearly not happy with Tigh's decisions, and probably is not sure what Tigh's overzealous reaction might be. He could be waiting for D to turn herself in, or showing her he agrees with her actions. Personally, I think more the first epecially when Adama takes control again.

Callie's move: I am liking Callie more and more, though it will be intersting to see what they do with her. I think Callie is just a loose cannon, she has few friends and seems like the sheltered girl learning to deal with war.  I know most of the fleat is in the same position, but I doubt she signed up for deck crew and imagined this at times becoming an upfont soldier position.  She lost it in this episode, but it will be intersting to see how they charge her (if they do).

To this same info. I think Tigh's wife is just a rat. She is too unstable to lead even her own life, so she found someone with better skills and that she can manipulate.  I don't think she is a Cylon though, just a bad fit for Tigh and for the fleet. I loved the fingernail scrap as she left the room.... the war between her and Adama is on.  It will be interesting if she cozies up to 

Boomers revelation: Is it known that Baltar passed on the information from Boomer?  It seemed to me that he was keeping the information for himself, and with Six at his side the information is for a plan that is not in the humans best interests. I found it strange that at the moment when he was 'interviewing' Boomer, Six was not there.  Is she starting to think he can be on his own? Since he is now a man.

Caprica: It makes sense that they would detonate the nuks in the upper atmosphere, since they were planning to inhabit the plant and it's easier to do that with what is already there. Also, if they are trying to bring about this whole children idea they need more then two people trying to get pregnant.


----------



## The_Universe (Aug 8, 2005)

I don't think we know what Adama's overriding goal is, any more - I certainly think that in light of every episode of the show after the miniseries, it's clearly *not* just "fight the cylons" and/or "go down in flames." He's had ample opportunities to ignite that blaze of glory, and has acted with *survival* in mind in every instance. 

I nearly cheered in my living room when the old man walked into Tigh's quarters. He's not perfect, but he's certainly not a megolomaniacal dictator, either.


----------



## Storm Raven (Aug 8, 2005)

Laurel said:
			
		

> I think Roslin is getting lots of support right now because it is her vs Tigh and his actions.  I don't think if Adama had been in command this would have gone down the same way.  Apollo and the others only acted when Tigh past the line of taking all rights away and not giving a glimpse that it could change back anytime soon.  As Apollo implied Tigh had become a dictator. That bit about this being the start of the honeymoon and what is a dictator to do.




Of course, once Adama arrested the president, what was his subsequent course of action going to be? It's hard to say that "if it were Adama nobody would have sided with Roslin", because some people clearly did. Further, it is also hard to blame subsequent events on Tigh, because once you arrest the President, what do you do next? Baltar was missing on Kobol at the time, what do you do _other_ than declare martial law once you have decapitated your own government?



> _It would have been interesting if Adama had woken up just moments later... would Apollo have still gone with the plan? etc._





Apollo seemed pretty much opposed to the Commander's decision to arrest Roslin from the get-go. I don't think his father's medical status made a whole lot of difference.



> _Also, I don't think Billy said or implied I agree with Tigh, but instead was stating that he doesn't agree with how Rolsin's going about it.  Roslin has now acted directly against Tigh, and Billy knows her next step is to gather supporters to her against Tigh.  (I keep saying Tight since he is the leader at this point.) She will divide the fleet, and if the actor who plays Billy stays on BSG then billy can also act as the brain's and caution behind whatever happens next._





True, we are now going to have internal strife among the humans. Because Roslin appears to be willing to stand up for democratic rule in the face of Adama and Tigh.



> _Gata I think is another on the border people. He is clearly not happy with Tigh's decisions, and probably is not sure what Tigh's overzealous reaction might be. He could be waiting for D to turn herself in, or showing her he agrees with her actions. Personally, I think more the first epecially when Adama takes control again._





I tend to think the second is true. I think Tigh and Adama have bitten off much more than they can chew, and have stirred up a hornet's nest that is bigger than either of them thought it could possibly be. Adama is used to being _obeyed_, so is Tigh for that matter. Being defied doesn't register with them as an acceptable course of action. But they forget that the Galactica is part of a larger fleet, made up of people who aren't subject to orders.



> _Callie's move: I am liking Callie more and more, though it will be intersting to see what they do with her. I think Callie is just a loose cannon, she has few friends and seems like the sheltered girl learning to deal with war.  I know most of the fleat is in the same position, but I doubt she signed up for deck crew and imagined this at times becoming an upfont soldier position.  She lost it in this episode, but it will be intersting to see how they charge her (if they do)._





I think they will charge her (destruction of military assets maybe), but the outcome seems uncertain.



> _To this same info. I think Tigh's wife is just a rat. She is too unstable to lead even her own life, so she found someone with better skills and that she can manipulate.  I don't think she is a Cylon though, just a bad fit for Tigh and for the fleet. I loved the fingernail scrap as she left the room.... the war between her and Adama is on.  It will be interesting if she cozies up to _





She's pond scum at best. A relatively hot woman who latched on to something of a rising star, and uses sex to manipulate him. At worst, she's a cylon.



> _Boomers revelation: Is it known that Baltar passed on the information from Boomer?  It seemed to me that he was keeping the information for himself, and with Six at his side the information is for a plan that is not in the humans best interests. I found it strange that at the moment when he was 'interviewing' Boomer, Six was not there.  Is she starting to think he can be on his own? Since he is now a man._





I don't think he passed on the information - something of that magnitude would have rated a scene in the show if he had. Of course, he'd have had to explain how he got the information, which clearly he doesn't want to do. Interesting observation about Six.



> _Caprica: It makes sense that they would detonate the nuks in the upper atmosphere, since they were planning to inhabit the plant and it's easier to do that with what is already there. Also, if they are trying to bring about this whole children idea they need more then two people trying to get pregnant._





I also think that the cylons _want_ the humans to find Kobol, find the Arrow of Apollo, and find earth. I don't know why, but the cylons seem to want the humans to succeed at that.


----------



## Storm Raven (Aug 8, 2005)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> I don't think we know what Adama's overriding goal is, any more - I certainly think that in light of every episode of the show after the miniseries, it's clearly *not* just "fight the cylons" and/or "go down in flames." He's had ample opportunities to ignite that blaze of glory, and has acted with *survival* in mind in every instance.




He's put the fleet in position to fight though, which is probably a huge mistake, and I think would have gotten the fleet destroyed if the cylons were not pulling their punches (as I believe they are). Even if Adama is choosing "survival" as his goal, I think the ideological question posed by Roslin (as a thematic element of the show) would be "is mere survival enough, and at what point does the cost become too high to bear".


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## The_Universe (Aug 8, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> He's put the fleet in position to fight though, which is probably a huge mistake, and I think would have gotten the fleet destroyed if the cylons were not pulling their punches (as I believe they are). Even if Adama is choosing "survival" as his goal, I think the ideological question posed by Roslin (as a thematic element of the show) would be "is mere survival enough, and at what point does the cost become too high to bear".



 Once more, I think this is a purposeful misinterpretation of his actions. Since the miniseries, he has only intentionally put the fleet in a position to fight when some major gain for the fleet (like needed supplies) was at stake. 

He's done things that incidentally put the fleet at risk (like search for Starbuck) but nothing that intentionally positioned them for a fight. 

Surely, he's no more or less reckless than Roslin.


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## ecliptic (Aug 8, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Adama is bound and determined to go down in flames. He's tried before, purposely. The main difference in their perspective is that Roslin's objective is to find earth, while Adama's objective is to fight cylons. Adama's objective is, in the end, counterproductive to the survival of the fleet, since over the long run they can't win against the cylons.
> 
> Any civil war that takes place was incited by Adama and Tigh, when they overturned the Articles of Confederation to put themselves in charge. Adama even exposed the true reason for his hissy fit that caused him to arrest the President - he doesn't like having his decisions second guessed. Tigh proved absoluty incapable of command, unable to decide for himself what to do, and using an autocratic hand to try to get his way, when it was obvious that was a bad idea. Telling people they have no voice in how their affairs are conducted is a bad idea, and Adama and Tigh went straight to that as their first option when faced with a political crisis.
> 
> ...





Oh great you're back. Same person who got the last thread locked thanks to your personal insults. You are better off away from these threads.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 8, 2005)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> Surely, he's no more or less reckless than Roslin.




_Exaclty!_

The simple point is that NEITHER Roslin nor Adama are completely right in what they've done. Taking sides doesn't really work in this case, as the both of them are doing the right thing AND the wrong thing...with neither of them really above the other.

Honestly, if Adama hadn't been taken out, I doubt things would have gone this far at all. Tigh was manipulated into far more crap than Adama ever would have been...which was the point of Adama's first sentence to Tigh when he woke up.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Aug 8, 2005)

I don't think it was one particular person who got the thread locked last week.  Just keep it civil, keep it on the topic of the _ show _ and don't attack the posters and everything will be fine.

Now, I have not read much of the behind-the-scenes stuff or podcasts or anything, so I have one question to ask.  People keep saying there are 12 models and are trying to count the number we have not seen.  Did it ever say there were 12 human-style models?  I was wondering if the centurions counted as one model.  I was even wondering if the raider they captured might also count as a model, since it does appear to be autonomous, with limited intelligence for sure, but Boomer crooned to it like it was a domesticated animal.  Is it a form of cylon as opposed to just a vehicle?


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 8, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> Now, I have not read much of the behind-the-scenes stuff or podcasts or anything, so I have one question to ask.  People keep saying there are 12 models and are trying to count the number we have not seen.  Did it ever say there were 12 human-style models?  I was wondering if the centurions counted as one model.  I was even wondering if the raider they captured might also count as a model, since it does appear to be autonomous, with limited intelligence for sure, but Boomer crooned to it like it was a domesticated animal.  Is it a form of cylon as opposed to just a vehicle?




It was mentioned in the Miniseries that there were 12 Human-Form Cylon models.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Aug 8, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> It was mentioned in the Miniseries that there were 12 Human-Form Cylon models.




Thanks, I missed them specifying human-form.

So, then do only the human-form models commune with God?  Are the mechanicals considered to be a lower life form, incapable of understanding the messages of God?  Obviously cylons did not naturally evolve, so who created the human-form models, and is that who they refer to as God?


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## Truth Seeker (Aug 8, 2005)

*Learning Curve...*

Once again, this show is hitting the spots. Although, it may got a mention, in previous posts, or it may not, here is my thoughts.

I consider all that happening, is a great learning tool, to how to tell a story...from a DM's perpective.

There is people that some don't like.

There is some, who have been giving grudingly the respect of being liked.

There are those who have a strong presence, but may not be liked, cause it is too overbearing.

Then, there is the one, who just plain...unpredictable.

The range in this last esp. was wide as wide can be...and there were surprises. From one person I did not expect it to be from.

The Lt. on the bridge. He surprised me, the man was asked the question, and he played ignorant...I was like...FRACK!!!, My ears, my eys, and my mind, was like...he did, he did do it...

He Lied.

His reasons, unknown for now, but maybe...one day, it will get explained. And he is a second tier character.

FRack...this is good stuff.


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## Storm Raven (Aug 8, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> Oh great you're back. Same person who got the last thread locked thanks to your personal insults. You are better off away from these threads.




Yeah. Because criticizing your opinion is a _personal insult_. Please. Learn the difference between the two and then get back to me.

And I'm better off away from these threads? Why? So you don't have to deal with the holes in your theories concerning the show?


----------



## Storm Raven (Aug 8, 2005)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> Once more, I think this is a purposeful misinterpretation of his actions. Since the miniseries, he has only intentionally put the fleet in a position to fight when some major gain for the fleet (like needed supplies) was at stake.




And, to be perfectly blunt, that was a mistake. If the cylons hadn't been pulling their punches, he would have gotten his head handed to him.



> _He's done things that incidentally put the fleet at risk (like search for Starbuck) but nothing that intentionally positioned them for a fight._





Once again, putting the fleet at risk should have been fatal, if the cylons weren't pulling their punches.



> _Surely, he's no more or less reckless than Roslin._





The sum total of her "recklessness" has been to use a single captured piece of equipment to send a single person to Caprica. A piece of equipment that wasn't actually needed for the mission for which Adama insisted it was critical. This is as "reckless" as endangering the entire fleet to look for Starbuck?


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## Truth Seeker (Aug 8, 2005)

Storm Raven, please respect my request, that is on Page one.

Thank You.


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## Truth Seeker (Aug 8, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Yeah. Because criticizing your opinion is a _personal insult_. Please. Learn the difference between the two and then get back to me.
> 
> And I'm better off away from these threads? Why? So you don't have to deal with the holes in your theories concerning the show?




Read page one, thread one. 

Again Thank You.


----------



## Storm Raven (Aug 8, 2005)

Truth Seeker said:
			
		

> Storm Raven, please respect my request, that is on Page one.
> 
> Thank You.




I will, if eliptic does.


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## Storm Raven (Aug 8, 2005)

Truth Seeker said:
			
		

> Read page one, thread one.
> 
> Again Thank You.




Wait a second. I post in a topic _on topic_, on point. Responding directly to the post I quoted, discussing nothing but the content of the show. Quoting the _entire post_ to which I responded (so there's none of this "misquoting" nonsense). There were no personal insults (not that I used personal insults in the previous thread). No flames. A completely innocuous post in which I merely stated a different opinion concerning the show.

Elliptic shows up and attacks me. Not my post. Not the ideas I put forward. And somehow _I'm_ the bad guy? I think that something is awry here. And it isn't my post that's the problem.


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## Truth Seeker (Aug 8, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> I will, if eliptic does.




Then apply this simple rule...if the cause is known, just ignore it. And I do mean that...literally.

And my request was meant for everyone, no one was named in it.

Now, either chill and be constructive, or don't post. This goes to anyone.

If making a point is getting too serious...then go on to something else.

This is not a place on making points *like a score*, and this bares repeating, this is a fiction story, with side elements of truth.

Treat it as such.


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## Truth Seeker (Aug 8, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Wait a second. I post in a topic _on topic_, on point. Responding directly to the post I quoted, discussing nothing but the content of the show. Quoting the _entire post_ to which I responded (so there's none of this "misquoting" nonsense). There were no personal insults (not that I used personal insults in the previous thread). No flames. A completely innocuous post in which I merely stated a different opinion concerning the show.
> 
> Elliptic shows up and attacks me. Not my post. Not the ideas I put forward. And somehow _I'm_ the bad guy? I think that something is awry here. And it isn't my post that's the problem.




Me tricky that way


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## Truth Seeker (Aug 8, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> Oh great you're back. Same person who got the last thread locked thanks to your personal insults. You are better off away from these threads.




*feeling like a teacher* The detention room for you too....


----------



## WizarDru (Aug 8, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> It was mentioned in the Miniseries that there were 12 Human-Form Cylon models.




I was under the impression they said there were 12 models, but it was a vague answer that could have meant 12 models of cylon TOTAl, or 12 human-models.  The discussion between Baltar and Six included the context of discussing the old cylons (from the previous war), and didn't really make it clear.

However, it's most likely that the interpetation of 12 human models is likely.  But it's still conjecture, I think.


----------



## The_Universe (Aug 8, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> And, to be perfectly blunt, that was a mistake. If the cylons hadn't been pulling their punches, he would have gotten his head handed to him.
> 
> [/i]
> 
> ...



 How do we know the Cylons are pulling their punches? Did you and Ron Moore share a drink in which he revealed their otherwise mysterious motivations and methods?

I doubt it. 

And since we *don't* know if that's the case, we can't say ("to be perfectly blunt") that it was a mistake or not. It certainly seems to have worked out well enough, which would tend to indicate that it was not a mistake at all.

As to Roslin's recklessness, I think I can point to the whole situation with Zareck, the Kamala Root, the secrecy of her cancer, and the fact that she chose Baltar as a vice president despite the fact that everyone *knows* he's crazy as further instances of her less than cautious nature. 

If you don't like Adama, that's fine. But don't paint pictures in the air and then tell me that's the way it's always been. In the land of speculation, ain't no man king.


----------



## WizarDru (Aug 8, 2005)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> As to Roslin's recklessness, I think I can point to the whole situation with Zareck, the Kamala Root, the secrecy of her cancer, and the fact that she chose Baltar as a vice president despite the fact that everyone *knows* he's crazy as further instances of her less than cautious nature.




I don't think they're pulling their punches.

I also don't see recklessness in MOST of those actions.  The Chamala root...well, that's calculated risk, but I could see that as being reckless.  Everyone does NOT know Baltar as crazy; eccentric, yes...but only those folks who know him personally...and they think of him as an oddball genius.  By reputation (and previous media attention on Caprica) he's a helluva guy.  I'm not sure what you mean by the 'whole situation with Zareck'...unless you mean the prez's distrust of him and moves to block him.  Considering the man was willing to let his head be blown off to unseat the government 12 DAYS after the near-extinction of mankind...I'd say she's not crazy for being suspicious of him.

Mind you, Roslin doesn't see her actions as reckless, but of preserving the stability of the fleet.  You could argue that she's become too convinced of her own righteousness...but that hardly puts her as unique in this show, don't you think?


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## The_Universe (Aug 8, 2005)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> I don't think they're pulling their punches.
> 
> I also don't see recklessness in MOST of those actions.  The Chamala root...well, that's calculated risk, but I could see that as being reckless.  Everyone does NOT know Baltar as crazy; eccentric, yes...but only those folks who know him personally...and they think of him as an oddball genius.  By reputation (and previous media attention on Caprica) he's a helluva guy.  I'm not sure what you mean by the 'whole situation with Zareck'...unless you mean the prez's distrust of him and moves to block him.  Considering the man was willing to let his head be blown off to unseat the government 12 DAYS after the near-extinction of mankind...I'd say she's not crazy for being suspicious of him.
> 
> Mind you, Roslin doesn't see her actions as reckless, but of preserving the stability of the fleet.  You could argue that she's become too convinced of her own righteousness...but that hardly puts her as unique in this show, don't you think?



 I don't think she's a bad person, or anything - I just find the demonization of Adama galling, and think that the two characters are similarly flawed. The overriding assumption I seem to be getting from some of the posters (like Stormraven) is that Roslin is the misunderstood saint, and Adama is a powerhungry madman who has only suceeded because the Cylons aren't really trying. 

I don't think either character is perfect, but I don't think the balance really shifts in either of their favors, either.


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## Storm Raven (Aug 8, 2005)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> How do we know the Cylons are pulling their punches? Did you and Ron Moore share a drink in which he revealed their otherwise mysterious motivations and methods?




Because they appear to have repreatedly not used their best efforts to destroy the humans. Look at Helo's story - the cylons explicitly said they weren't going to kill him unless he went the "wrong way". The Galactica seems to have been herded in a similar fashion. The cylons show up, make what appears to be a token effort to cause damage, and then get defeated - and impart information to the crew of the Galactica in the process.



> _I doubt it.
> 
> And since we *don't* know if that's the case, we can't say ("to be perfectly blunt") that it was a mistake or not. It certainly seems to have worked out well enough, which would tend to indicate that it was not a mistake at all._





He certainly has put the fleet in jeopardy for some trivial reasons. And asserted that he needed certain miltiary hardware that he ended up not needed. In point of fact, I'd point to the whole Boomer-on-the-Base-Star situation as evidence that the cylons aren't doing their best to destroy Galactica: they could have killed or captured Boomer when she landed, and then blown the Galactica apart if they had wanted. But they didn't.



> _As to Roslin's recklessness, I think I can point to the whole situation with Zareck, the Kamala Root, the secrecy of her cancer, and the fact that she chose Baltar as a vice president despite the fact that everyone *knows* he's crazy as further instances of her less than cautious nature._





None of which directly threaten the lives of the members of the fleet. The recklessness you posit is one of political issues, not one of security issues. And most of them were actually quite reasonable decisions. Who exactly has Roslin hurt by concealing her cancer? Why should she not take the medicine prescribed for her condition? With respect to Baltar, she had a choice between a known problem (as she then perceived it) in Zarek (a known and unrepentant terrorist), and Baltar, who seemed, at that time, to merely be an eccentric genius.



> _If you don't like Adama, that's fine. But don't paint pictures in the air and then tell me that's the way it's always been. In the land of speculation, ain't no man king. _





I'm just pointing out the way he has behaved thus far. He likes to fight, that's his first instinct. He is willing to put the fleet in harm's way to do it, or just to rescue a downed pilot who (when he made the decision) may or may not be dead. He's dangerous, more so than it seems that Roslin could ever be.


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## Storm Raven (Aug 8, 2005)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> I don't think she's a bad person, or anything - I just find the demonization of Adama galling, and think that the two characters are similarly flawed. The overriding assumption I seem to be getting from some of the posters (like Stormraven) is that Roslin is the misunderstood saint, and Adama is a powerhungry madman who has only suceeded because the Cylons aren't really trying.




If the cylons had been trying, Roslin would be dead too. It cuts both ways. Roslin isn't a saint, but she's actually concerned with preserving what makes the 12 Colonies worth saving, while Adama only pays lip service to those ideals. Adama's decisions thus far have been fairly bad - his desire to fight the cylons rather than save the fleet in the premier, his decision to put the fleet in danger for Starbuck, his plan to attack the cylons at Kobol, and so on. He has succeeded, mostly, but not because of skill, but because he's gotten lucky. I think the writers have been building him up just to point out how hollow his victories have been. And, he arrested the President, and paved the way for martial law. That makes him subject to demonization right there.

_



			I don't think either character is perfect, but I don't think the balance really shifts in either of their favors, either.
		
Click to expand...


_
It seems to me like the guy who arrests the President because she second guessed his decision is a serious problem. Roslin's not perfect, but I'd much rather have her calling the shots than Adama. I'd at least get a vote once in a while concerning what the next step would be. Adama's problem is that he doesn't believe he should be accountable to anyone - he said as much to Tigh in the last episode. That's a fatal flaw, and a real black mark on his character.


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## WizarDru (Aug 8, 2005)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> I don't think she's a bad person, or anything - I just find the demonization of Adama galling, and think that the two characters are similarly flawed. The overriding assumption I seem to be getting from some of the posters (like Stormraven) is that Roslin is the misunderstood saint, and Adama is a powerhungry madman who has only suceeded because the Cylons aren't really trying.
> 
> I don't think either character is perfect, but I don't think the balance really shifts in either of their favors, either.




That's the thing: there is no wrong answer, no bad person.  Adama has managed to keep that rag-tag fleet safe and sane for months.  He's a hero, no question; trying to paint him as some sort of fascist is disingenious, IMHO.  I think he acts a tad too emotionally, sometimes, but he's human after all.


....or.....is he?  Did air-lock cylon lie?  What was his goal, anyhow?  The PLAN?


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## The_Universe (Aug 8, 2005)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> That's the thing: there is no wrong answer, no bad person.  Adama has managed to keep that rag-tag fleet safe and sane for months.  He's a hero, no question; trying to paint him as some sort of fascist is disingenious, IMHO.  I think he acts a tad too emotionally, sometimes, but he's human after all.
> 
> 
> ....or.....is he?  Did air-lock cylon lie?  What was his goal, anyhow?  The PLAN?



 Well, Commander Adama's status as a cylon is something I can actually comment on with the ability to reference evidence in the show - when the first Leoban model was having trouble on the station in the miniseries because of the interference, Adama was just fine and dandy. So, if he's a humaniform cylon model, he's a much more advanced one than Leoban.


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## WizarDru (Aug 8, 2005)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> Well, Commander Adama's status as a cylon is something I can actually comment on with the ability to reference evidence in the show - when the first Leoban model was having trouble on the station in the miniseries because of the interference, Adama was just fine and dandy. So, if he's a humaniform cylon model, he's a much more advanced one than Leoban.




Very true.  Adama is the only one we ARE sure about...that and Helo, I think.  But what about Apollo?  And the question remains: was he lying, and why did he say that?  IS IT a plot to split the fleet in this way?  Roslin certainly is less likely to trust Bill Adama when she suspects him of being a cylon (which she may now do given that Baltar's detector has been very publicly shown to be wrong).


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## Storm Raven (Aug 8, 2005)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> That's the thing: there is no wrong answer, no bad person.  Adama has managed to keep that rag-tag fleet safe and sane for months.




Just as a note: Adama didn't keep the fleet together by himself. Roslin was a big part of accomplishing that as well. As Tigh seems to have found out the hard way. Galactica may be the big military fish in a small pond these days, but it depends on the other members of the fleet to continue functioning.



> _He's a hero, no question; trying to paint him as some sort of fascist is disingenious, IMHO.  I think he acts a tad too emotionally, sometimes, but he's human after all._





Even heroes go wrong. I think Adama is an example of a military commander who is used to being obeyed, and not used to dealing with the multiple viewpoints that running a democratic government entails. I think he really doesn't believe himself to be a fascist, but I think his actions could make him one without him even realizing it. He's seems to be the sort of guy who _says_ he believes in the ideals of the Articles of Confederation, but is willing to set them aside when they become inconvenient for him (unlike Apollo, who seems to be a true idealist), and ends up being a fascist without even realizing that is what he has become.



> _....or.....is he?  Did air-lock cylon lie?  What was his goal, anyhow?  The PLAN?_





That is the big question looming out there right now. Did the air-lock cylon tell the truth? If he did, is the "Adama" who is a cylon the elder one, or his son? If Boomer is a cylon, why did she shoot Adama?


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## Thornir Alekeg (Aug 8, 2005)

I agree that the cylons are for some reason pulling punches.  I cannot quite decide if I think it is because they are herding the humans like cattle, or they are studying them like rats in a maze.  I lean toward the latter.  I feel that they are putting the humans into situations to see how they react and are measuring this.  I don't think it is perfect as, just as players often do to DMs, the humans do not always follow the script the cylons have laid out.  

As for Adama and Roslin, I think they are both dangerous because each of them feels they are the ones who have the right answers, and each of them controls a part of the fleet.  I think Roslin is ultimately more dangerous because she is beginning to believe that she _ is _ the prophet, and therefore her actions and decisions are foretold.  She can convince herself that any decision she makes has to be the correct one.  Adama, I feel acts overall in the best interest of the fleet.  He does sometimes make mistakes, acts from emotion and puts the Galactica and her crew as the most important aspect of the fleet, but overall, I think his actions and decisions are not as overall dangerous.


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## Fast Learner (Aug 8, 2005)

I'm nearly positive in the mini-series they just said "12 models," and did not make it clear about the types. I'll be watching it again this week, so will keep an ear out.

I don't think the Cylons are pulling their punches: when the toaster models boarded the ship and headed for control of life support, do you think it was just a feint? I think they would have been happy to wipe the ship "clean."

There's little doubt, though, that the humans are being manipulated. Differing factions certainly makes sense.

My assumption about at least some of the Cylons' goals: get the fleet to lead them to Earth, so that the Cylons can wipe out every single human in the galaxy. Since Earth is a human thing, they are likely assuming that they'll need actual humans to lead them there.


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## Storm Raven (Aug 8, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> As for Adama and Roslin, I think they are both dangerous because each of them feels they are the ones who have the right answers, and each of them controls a part of the fleet.  I think Roslin is ultimately more dangerous because she is beginning to believe that she _ is _ the prophet, and therefore her actions and decisions are foretold.  She can convince herself that any decision she makes has to be the correct one.  Adama, I feel acts overall in the best interest of the fleet.  He does sometimes make mistakes, acts from emotion and puts the Galactica and her crew as the most important aspect of the fleet, but overall, I think his actions and decisions are not as overall dangerous.




Roslin may believe she is the prophet, _but_ every indication given about her on the show thus far indicated that she is also a big believer in the Articles of Confederation. As a result, she seems to be willing to listen to the Quorum of Twelve, and is prepared to hold elections when her term is up, and accept the results even if she loses. I think that is the big difference between her and Adama - he seems to have very autocratic tendencies, I doubt that he would support general elections that might result in a "wrong" decisions any time soon.

I think that's why I tend to side with Roslin - the elected leader is almost always preferable to the self-appointed dictator.


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## Storm Raven (Aug 8, 2005)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> I don't think the Cylons are pulling their punches: when the toaster models boarded the ship and headed for control of life support, do you think it was just a feint? I think they would have been happy to wipe the ship "clean."




How many toasters did they put on board? Not many. If they'd wanted to wipe the ship clean, I would think they would have sent a bigger boarding party.



> _There's little doubt, though, that the humans are being manipulated. Differing factions certainly makes sense.
> 
> My assumption about at least some of the Cylons' goals: get the fleet to lead them to Earth, so that the Cylons can wipe out every single human in the galaxy. Since Earth is a human thing, they are likely assuming that they'll need actual humans to lead them there._





That doesn't seem to be the goal. So far as we have seen the cylons discuss their goals, they seem to have a much murkier plan than "wipe out the humans". Just look at the conversations between the cylon models on Caprica, for example. Let alone the tidbits revealed by the air-lock cylon. (I'm not going to get into the Baltar-Six conversations, because those may simply be a delusion of Baltar's).


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## Kid Charlemagne (Aug 8, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> If Boomer is a cylon, why did she shoot Adama?




The bigger question, I think, is _why did she fail_ to kill him?

If either of the Adama's are Cylons, I would think it's the younger Adama, if for no other reason than we've seen Adama Sr. age (in flashbacks).  It's yet to be determined if the anthroform Cylons age or not.

And I think it's 12 models, total.  Not twelve human models.


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## The_Universe (Aug 8, 2005)

Well, if that's the case: 

1) Centurions
2) Raiders
3) The "Shuttle" model
4) Base Stars
5) "Boomer" style
6) "Six" style
7) "Leoban" style
8) "Suicide bomber/political advisor" style

I think that's the only ones we know of - that still leaves 4 unknown models, and means that there are at least some doubles if there are actually 8 existing cylon agents in the fleet.


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## Fast Learner (Aug 8, 2005)

In the mini-series, Six points out that there are still some of the older toaster (original BSG chromed) models left, too, that "they have their uses." So that would be one more, potentially.

Yet for further plot development by the writers over many seasons, my guess is that they meant (or will have meant) 12 human-like models.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Aug 8, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Roslin may believe she is the prophet, _but_ every indication given about her on the show thus far indicated that she is also a big believer in the Articles of Confederation. As a result, she seems to be willing to listen to the Quorum of Twelve, and is prepared to hold elections when her term is up, and accept the results even if she loses. I think that is the big difference between her and Adama - he seems to have very autocratic tendencies, I doubt that he would support general elections that might result in a "wrong" decisions any time soon.
> 
> I think that's why I tend to side with Roslin - the elected leader is almost always preferable to the self-appointed dictator.




But we do not know if she would actually accept losing in the election,as we have heard little of it since she has come to the conclusion that she is the prophet.  Perhaps now she is only willing because she believes that her winning is also preordained.  Wouldn't it be interesting if she lost the election, but tried to maintain her leadership by means of her "spiritual" status.  As for listening to the Quorum, again, so far indications are that a significant portion of the Quorum will go along with her simply because they beleive she is the prophet.  

I could see at some point Baltar and Zareck finding common cause against the President.


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## Storm Raven (Aug 8, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> But we do not know if she would actually accept losing in the election,as we have heard little of it since she has come to the conclusion that she is the prophet.




Perhaps, but that assumes facts not in evidence. The only information we have about Roslin's views on this is that she planned to hold elections when the time came, and would accept victory or defeat at the polls (I say "planned", because this was before the whole martial law thing cropped up).



> _Perhaps now she is only willing because she believes that her winning is also preordained.  Wouldn't it be interesting if she lost the election, but tried to maintain her leadership by means of her "spiritual" status._





Perhaps she would, but once again, we don't have anything that would support this. Yet. (Later we might, but not yet).



> _As for listening to the Quorum, again, so far indications are that a significant portion of the Quorum will go along with her simply because they beleive she is the prophet._





But isn't that up to the Quorum to decide? They are elected representatives after all, if their faith in Roslin is misplaced, or not shared by their constituents, then they would suffer at the polls when their reelection came up.



> _I could see at some point Baltar and Zareck finding common cause against the President._





I could too. But I see them drawing up on opposite sides. Zarek is sort of the anti-Baltar in a way. Zarek is clearly violently opposed to military rule, and was willing to go to jail for years in support of his beliefs. Baltar is a weasel, who is willing to go along with whoever has power, so long as his skin and comfort are assured.


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## Wolf72 (Aug 8, 2005)

Articles of Confederation or _Colonization_???

I hope Tigh's wife gets the boot ... if she doesn't, I hope he grows some sort of back bone.


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## TanisFrey (Aug 8, 2005)

The Base Star in the original was just a ship with a fuction like Galatica.  And Based on what they have shown I would think that the Base Star, in this series, is also a ship, a base for raiders.  So 8 Models shown and 1 more mentioned, altho in the past the Raider vivaiblety as a model was question.  See the thread about last season finialy in addition to what has been mentioned in this tread.

In the old series the Cyclons setteled on the idea of following and harrsing the Fleet to keep in on the move to Earth so that ALL HUMANS can be wiped out.  In this series that seams to be to as least 2 factions of cyclon, kill all humans and the mate with human factions.  It looks like the 2 sides have agreeded to follow the humans to Earth at least.  From there whom knows?

Adama/Roslin split prediction:
I will predict that the fleet will physical split with the faction following Roslin going to Kobol by the end of the next epsoid.  She will leave in an attempt to prevent fighting between civ/mil factions.  Galatica and the remaindor of the fleet will follow after is becomes apparent that the fleet needs to be whole to survive.  Just as things get tense over Kobol, Starbuck with the arrow shows up.  A joint mission to the ruins of Kobol is agreed to by Roslin and Adama, AKA the Lost Planet of the Gods epsoid remake.  End of conflick but not the dispute between Adama and Roslin.

And I have nothing to do with the production, this is just a guess.

-Tanisfrey


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 8, 2005)

TanisFrey said:
			
		

> She will leave in an attempt to prevent fighting between civ/mil factions.  Galatica and the remaindor of the fleet will follow after is becomes apparent that the fleet needs to be whole to survive.




Now, Roslin has made some bad decisions...but I don't think she's stupid enough to run off with civilians without any kind of defense.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Aug 8, 2005)

I think TanisFrey could be right about Roslin.  She mayfigure that Adama _ will _ follow as he needs the fleet as much as they need him.  It will be a game of chicken, though.

As for Starbuck, I predict that she remains on Caprica for the rest of this portion of the season.  The whole finding other survivors/guerrilla action/stealing a ship seems ripe for stretching out over quite a few episodes.  She'll manage to get a ship to get off Caprica, but the half-season ending cliffhanger will be if she succeeds in getting back to the fleet.  This will necessitate a serval episode period around Kobol since Starbuck won't know where to meet up with the fleet if they take off for other parts.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Aug 8, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Perhaps, but that assumes facts not in evidence. The only information we have about Roslin's views on this is that she planned to hold elections when the time came, and would accept victory or defeat at the polls (I say "planned", because this was before the whole martial law thing cropped up).




I know there is no evidence, but most of this thread is speculative, that's the whole point I thought.  We don't know for sure what is going to happen at all, it is a TV show and the writers I'm sure, like the cylons, have a plan, but they can change it if they need to based upon cast and ratings.


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## TanisFrey (Aug 8, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Now, Roslin has made some bad decisions...but I don't think she's stupid enough to run off with civilians without any kind of defense.



The preview for next week made it sound like she was about to make another bad decision.  To Quote the preview, Roslin "I invite my followers to join my over Kobol...."

I am just thinking that Adama will want to try to eventualy bow to Roslin and jump to Kobol.  He can try to protect any over Kobol with Raptors but this will end up being a waste of effort.  They have not shown the Vipers to be Jump caple, but have shown the Raptor to be a Heavy fighter/scout/Wild Weasel.  The Battlestar Galatica Game that came out with the miniseries was based on the miniseries backstory and had the Vipers capable of short FTL fight.  I never finished the game to see if it was any more that 10 to 30 light seconds.


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## TanisFrey (Aug 8, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> I know there is no evidence, but most of this thread is speculative, that's the whole point I thought.  We don't know for sure what is going to happen at all, it is a TV show and the writers I'm sure, like the cylons, have a plan, but they can change it if they need to based upon cast and ratings.



If I was Roslin and/or Adama I would try to hold a series of elections ending with presdent election.  Owing to the fact that it is very unlikely that they have voteing apratius already installed on ships other than the Galatica, or enought trained election monitors.  Even with the Quorm of 12 espoid last season it seamed that some were appointed by Roslin.  Well Anonted might be a better term.

-TanisFrey


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## Fast Learner (Aug 9, 2005)

FYI, here's the dialog from the mini-series about the 12 models:

Baltar: What have I done? [pause] What am I going to do? [pause] There's no way out.

Six: I know.

Baltar: Sure you know. It's your doing, isn't it?! [pause] Wait! Wait, there has to be another way out of here! I mean, I mean you must have an escape plan, you're not about to be destroyed by your own bombs, are you. How, how are you leaving?!

[Nuke goes off in the distance]

Baltar: Oh! [in agony]

Six: Gaius, I can't die. When this body's destroyed, my memory, my consciousness, will be transmitted to a new one. I'll just wake up somewhere else in an identical body.

Baltar: You mean there's more out there like you?

Six: There are twelve models. I'm number six.

Baltar: I don't wanna die, I don't wanna die [crying].

Six: Get down!

[Baltar ducks down behind her and an  explosion rips through the room.]


So... that sounds more to me like there are 12 human-like models. But it's still maddeningly vague.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Aug 9, 2005)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> Six: Gaius, I can't die. When this body's destroyed, my memory, my consciousness, will be transmitted to a new one. I'll just wake up somewhere else in an identical body.
> 
> Baltar: You mean there's more out there like you?
> 
> ...




But looking at the context, Six is speaking about identical bodies into which her consciousness will be transmitted when Baltar asks about more like her.  That could imply that there are 12 identical copies of the female cylon we refer to as "Six," a couple of which have been killed.  I know it is not likely, but it is vague enough to be possible.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Aug 9, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> How many toasters did they put on board? Not many. If they'd wanted to wipe the ship clean, I would think they would have sent a bigger boarding party.




Well, there are two options:

1)  The Cylons tried their best to wipe out the humans; or
2)  The Cylons toyed with them.

Given that the complement of that boarding shuttle came within feet of dooming* the entire known human race, I rather think they were trying their best with what they had available.  If they were toying with them, they'd've had to stop when it became obvious they were becoming too successful.

* - I rather doubt they'd've gotten the entire fleet after depressurizing the Galactica and turning the batteries on the ships.  However, they'd've been defenseless, and lived so long as they could hyper away ahead of the Cylons and not run into a trap.

I've begun to think that there are, in fact, 13 factions of cylons; the 12 anthroforms, and the toasters.  The toasters want to wipe out humanity, but aren't above cooperating with the anthroforms in their little games.  The anthroforms may be in charge (are they?), but that doesn't mean the toasters are without influence.

Hrm...13 factions, for 13 human worlds?

Brad


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## ecliptic (Aug 9, 2005)

edit: Unlike someone else, I will actually comply with a request from a moderator.


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## Truth Seeker (Aug 9, 2005)

Ecliptic...as I ask Storm Raven, I will ask you.

Put it on ice. Please...and I am asking nicely.

And for the sake of this thread not being closed again, please remove those quotes, you have marked with Storm Raven responses. *I wish not see fires here, for foolishness*

Thank you.

**UPDATE*thank you


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## Fast Learner (Aug 9, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> But looking at the context, Six is speaking about identical bodies into which her consciousness will be transmitted when Baltar asks about more like her.  That could imply that there are 12 identical copies of the female cylon we refer to as "Six," a couple of which have been killed.  I know it is not likely, but it is vague enough to be possible.



Seems to me that "models" in the context of machines pretty much always means different ones, not copies of the same one. But that's my take.


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## Elf Witch (Aug 9, 2005)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> The problem is convoluted, I think.
> 
> One problem is that morally strong, mentally healthy people are _extremely_ tough to write, without falling into a number of pitfalls.  They easily come off as boring, since they don't really have meaningful conflict.  Sure, you can say there's conflict, but if you know a character is strong enough to defeat it, it isn't meaningful, and thus boring.  Another easy pitfall is that they become preachy.  Various characters throughout Star Trek have this flaw in their writing.  Finally, I also think that such traits actually dehumanize the characters when written poorly, making them harder to relate to and thus harder to like.  Why?  Because most people out there have issues.  That doesn't mean they are morally bankrupt or mentally unstable, but no one is perfect.
> 
> ...




This was a very good thought provoking post. And it is true that if a character has no room for growth there is little to write about. I really think Star Trek Next Gen suffered from this. With execption of Data and Worf the others just seemed to have no room for any personal growth. I often thought they came across smug and sanctimonies. 

Now IMO DS9 did not have this flaw. The characters all had room for growth From Sisko to Kira , Bashir and Odo. I think the character with the least growth was O'Brian but he was never a boring character. And these people with the exception of Quark had a lot of postive and moral characteristics.

On Firefly I think Mal is the heart of the show the one that makes it possible for the others to grow.

Now on BSG I have not seen that much growth yet. Tigh is still a drunk, Starbuck has not shown any growth at all. I know it is early yet and I hope to see some growth of these characters. One compliant I have heard about old BSG was how cheesy it was and that it did not have the depth of the new show. These are true to some extent. (A little rant here it bugs the living daylight out of me though when the show is dimissed and sneered at by fans of the new show. After all if it was not for the old show and that shows fan who kept it a live and viable you would not have the new show) rant over.

I saw the show when I was a young 18 pregnant with my son and it inspired me. It was fun and we had not seen anything like that on TV since Trek went off the air. I found the characters to be what I considered heroes. Also I liked the loyalty they had for each other. Adama was a wise leader a less cranky Gandulf. I think if you rolled Roslin and Bill Adama into one character you would have the old Adama. Coming from a messed up family myself I liked seeing a family that loved each other and got along the way Adama, Athena and Apollo did. For all its 70s tv chessyness I consider it one of my top ten shows of all times.

So I was a little in shock over the new show. There are some things I really like about the new show Gaius Baltar is a great character even if he did not on purpose help the cyclons destroy the colonies. As I have said before I think the character of Roslin rocks. One of my favorite scenes is the one from the mini series where she gives the order for the ships with FTL to leave behind the ships that didn't have it.

Apollo was my favorite character on the old show and he is my favorite on the new show. They both had the ability and the will to do what they felt was right. Both seemed to have a strong sense of personal ethics. 

I was not that impressed with Adama in the mini series and I am still not. I think he makes mistakes some bad ones and don't I feel that he comes across as a strong leader. He would not inspire me to follow him. 

I cannot stand Tigh or Starbuck though I would like to see Starbuck try and get her act together she has a lot that the fleet needs.

One thing I really like about the new show is seeing the support staff like Tyrol and Cally. The ones who were not career military like Cally who was using it as a way to go to dental school. We never saw that in the old show though it was different because they had been at war with the cyclons for a thousand yahern. 

I like the new cyclons because they are more interesting and for me I just can't cheer there defeat because it is not black and white. From what I have seen they may well have had a valid point in their act of destroying their creators who enslaved them. For all we know they have evolved into a sentient race with the ability to love , hate and have a soul. Something that the humans even Adama are not willing to consider. 

Though the old folks of old BSG were smarter they were not the ones who created the cyclons.


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## Fast Learner (Aug 9, 2005)

Elf Witch said:
			
		

> Now on BSG I have not seen that much growth yet. Tigh is still a drunk, Starbuck has not shown any growth at all.



I disagree about Starbuck. For example, in season 1, episode 4, she grew through her guilt about her role with the death of Zack, through acknowledging her mistake, and into an understanding that her responsibility goes beyond her personal preferences and fears.

That was good growth. Watch the episode again, if you can, and I think you'll see it, too. (I just finished watching it before I posted this.)

She's never going to get over being a hotshot: that's the definition of her character. But her other stuff I think she's growing through.

And Tigh: no, he's still an alcoholic. But he is becoming cognizant of how much it's ruining his life and the lives of others. He has tried, a couple of times, to get back on the wagon, and even seemed to succeed for a couple of episodes. He also seems to be coming close to the point where if others staged an intervention, he might well be able to get back on the wagon, at least for a while... the mistakes he made while the old man was out are just the kinds of "bottom of the barrel" problems that can spur a person to finally do something.

But he'll need to get his wife out of his life to do it: she's not just an enabler, she feeds him booze and bad ideas. (BTW, I no longer think she's a Cylon. Just a _really_ poisonous person.)


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## Truth Seeker (Aug 9, 2005)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> I disagree about Starbuck. For example, in season 1, episode 4, she grew through her guilt about her role with the death of Zack, through acknowledging her mistake, and into an understanding that her responsibility goes beyond her personal preferences and fears.
> 
> That was good growth. Watch the episode again, if you can, and I think you'll see it, too. (I just finished watching it before I posted this.)
> 
> ...




I like the wife, sorta a reminder of where things can go wrong.


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## Plane Sailing (Aug 9, 2005)

Although TruthSeeker isn't a moderator on this forum his request for civility is a plain simple call for good manners. 

Good manners should be present without an actual moderator requesting it!

Just in case there is any need though, I would like to say officially - please keep on good behaviour. The last thread died in flames, we'll take a dim view if the same people drag this thread down in flames too.

Thanks,


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## Storm Raven (Aug 9, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> I know there is no evidence, but most of this thread is speculative, that's the whole point I thought.  We don't know for sure what is going to happen at all, it is a TV show and the writers I'm sure, like the cylons, have a plan, but they can change it if they need to based upon cast and ratings.




Sure its speculative, but it is speculation based upon hints from the show. For example, I see Adama as having an autocratic streak based upon things he has said and done in the series. I speculate that the cylons are holding back from killing the humans because there have been a number of moments in the series where it looked like they could have wiped them out, but didn't. The only information we have concerning Roslin and elections is that she was planning on holding them (before the whole fracas with Adama), and gave no indication that she would not accept the results. Speculating that she would turn into a religious dictator is a whole different level of speculation. It wouldn't be an uninteresting direction for the show to take, and I wouldn't say it was impossible for Roslin's character to move in that direction. But there really hasn't been any groundwork laid for that kind of development.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Aug 9, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> But there really hasn't been any groundwork laid for that kind of development.



So you don't feel that Roslin subverting a pilot who is considered a key component to a military action, despite agreeing that Adama has authority in military matters, in order to carry off her agenda to gain a religious artifact to be groundwork for her development into a religious zealot?  

She did not confer with the Quorum, she did not attempt to impose her authority through proper channels. Instead she went behind Adama's back, filled Starbuck's head with tales of prophecy and salvation of the human race, and convinced her to fly off to Caprica.  

To me that is clearly groundwork for a person who has decided that her vision is bigger than the system of rule and government.


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## WizarDru (Aug 9, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> She did not confer with the Quorum, she did not attempt to impose her authority through proper channels. Instead she went behind Adama's back, filled Starbuck's head with tales of prophecy and salvation of the human race, and convinced her to fly off to Caprica.
> 
> To me that is clearly groundwork for a person who has decided that her vision is bigger than the system of rule and government.




Poor, poor Starbuck.  In only five minutes, Roslin hypnotized her, apparently.  Darned Roslin's powers of passive-agressive hypnotism 

Personally, I think you're attributing way too much forethought to Roslin's actions.  Events have led her to believe a prophecy is true, and that she is part of it.  How that plays out is anyone's guess - but I think the issue here is that you've already determined in the omniscient that she's wrong, and thus empirically all her actions are invalid.  In the context of the story, I'm not sure if I'm ready to buy that either way.  I'm pretty sure some complex things are happening, some controlled and some not.

Let's keep in mind that for the majority of the Colonials, the Lords of Kobol are a valid religion.  If Starbuck has been raised since birth to believe that a savior will come in mankind's darkest hour and lead them to safety....well, the situation tends to be somewhat compelling, don't you think?  Forget whether the Lords of Kobol are real or not...all that matters is that the characters believe in them, not us.  

Two theories:

1) I still maintain that the Galactica was not meant to survive.  The fleet was, but the cylons didn't want or expect Galactica to turn tail and guard the fleet.  The cylons have been improvising since, but they are treating mankind like a lab rat, seeing what they do and why.

2) The cylons intend to repopulate Caprica...possibly with their new breed of hum-ylon; the New Lords of Cobol.  If Six is to be believed, this is a cycle, to them.  A cycle to be repeated.  What if the Lords of Cobol were human-cylon half breeds?  The secret of Kobol will answer much, I think.


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## Storm Raven (Aug 9, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> So you don't feel that Roslin subverting a pilot who is considered a key component to a military action, despite agreeing that Adama has authority in military matters, in order to carry off her agenda to gain a religious artifact to be groundwork for her development into a religious zealot?




The main point of contention here is that I fundamentally disagree with the notion that somehow, Adama's control of the military is independent of the civilian government. I know he worked out an informal arrangement with Roslin, but that was solely due to Roslin's own inexperience with military matters. It would be impossible for a government to function that had the military _not_ subject to the orders of the chief executive (in point of fact, no one has been able to come up with a single example of a functioning government structured like that). She continually refers to "preserving our democratic way of life" and "upholding the Articles of Colonization" in support of her position, even using that line of reasoning when confronted with the sentry she had to talk her way past to escape, which leads me to believe that she is legally correct, but may not have the raw power to back that up. I also think that is why she was able to secure significant support for her escape from military personnel - two pilots, two members of the deck crew, the doctor, and at least four other crewmen helped her escape. That doesn't happen by accident. When her aide stayed behind, he didn't stay behind because she was acting illegally, he stayed behind because he thought her actions would divide the fleet.



> _She did not confer with the Quorum, she did not attempt to impose her authority through proper channels. Instead she went behind Adama's back, filled Starbuck's head with tales of prophecy and salvation of the human race, and convinced her to fly off to Caprica._





Sure, she told Starbuck about her beliefs, and then Starbuck acted on them. She didn't actually go around Adama, so much as she ignored his existence. My take on this is that she had the legal authority to order Adama to do what she wanted, but didn't because she hoped to avoid direct confrontation with him. Now that it is inevitable, she's more than willing. I would suggest that she didn't consult the Quorum because she didn't have time to do so. Given their reaction to her revelation of her status while in prison, it doesn't seem like she would have had much trouble supporting her - in point of fact, they seem to be willing to support her in the face of active military opposition to her authority.



> _To me that is clearly groundwork for a person who has decided that her vision is bigger than the system of rule and government._





Or, merely the groundwork of a person who is the chief elected official of a government asserting her authority in the face of a reactionary and recalcitrant pair of officers with autocratic tendencies.


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## Storm Raven (Aug 9, 2005)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> 2) The cylons intend to repopulate Caprica...possibly with their new breed of hum-ylon; the New Lords of Cobol.  If Six is to be believed, this is a cycle, to them.  A cycle to be repeated.  What if the Lords of Cobol were human-cylon half breeds?  The secret of Kobol will answer much, I think.




Here's an interesting theory. Twelve shows up a lot in the series. Twelve colonies, the Quorum of Twelve, twelve snakes, twelve models of cylons, and so on.

Now, I know where the original idea for the 12 Colonies came from in the old series - the twelve tribes of Israel, and then there was the "lost" tribe (presumably those humans who came to earth). But in the current series, the Lords of Kobol seem to be modeled on the Olympian gods (Apollo and Artemis have been explicitly mentioned). There were twelve Olympian gods, and our zodiac (based on Greek mythology, after which the 12 Colonies appear to be named) has twelve signs.

I maintain (based on nothing other than a guess) that the Lords of Kobol were cylons of a previous "cycle of history". The golden era when "Gods and men lived in peace" was the end of a previous war, when the cylon plan ground to a halt, and the cylons decided to try to reload, send the humans out of Kobol to recolonize, and try again a thousand years later. I think the cylons have tried this plan before, but in the past, it has stalled at Kobol due to some "wrong" choice made by the humans, requiring a "reset".


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## TanisFrey (Aug 9, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Sure, she told Starbuck about her beliefs, and then Starbuck acted on them. She didn't actually go around Adama, so much as she ignored his existence. My take on this is that she had the legal authority to order Adama to do what she wanted, but didn't because she hoped to avoid direct confrontation with him. Now that it is inevitable, she's more than willing. I would suggest that she didn't consult the Quorum because she didn't have time to do so. Given their reaction to her revelation of her status while in prison, it doesn't seem like she would have had much trouble supporting her - in point of fact, they seem to be willing to support her in the face of active military opposition to her authority.



Or members of the Quorum saw the witting on the wall that the military was/will be in charge and latached onto the first thing that might be used aginst Adama.  That is why Zerak is hidding Roslin.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Aug 9, 2005)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> ...but I think the issue here is that you've already determined in the omniscient that she's wrong, and thus empirically all her actions are invalid.  In the context of the story, I'm not sure if I'm ready to buy that either way.  I'm pretty sure some complex things are happening, some controlled and some not.




I have not made any decision about whether Roslin will prove to be correct or not, although I am probably leaning towards her actually being the person of the prophecies.  But for the arguements that have been put out there, I am suggesting that there is plenty of groundwork for someone to suggest that Roslin may become a religious zealot.  Its all in the interpretation, and the only ones who know if one interpretation is right or wrong are the writers.



> Two theories:
> 
> 1) I still maintain that the Galactica was not meant to survive.  The fleet was, but the cylons didn't want or expect Galactica to turn tail and guard the fleet.  The cylons have been improvising since, but they are treating mankind like a lab rat, seeing what they do and why.
> 
> 2) The cylons intend to repopulate Caprica...possibly with their new breed of hum-ylon; the New Lords of Cobol.  If Six is to be believed, this is a cycle, to them.  A cycle to be repeated.  What if the Lords of Cobol were human-cylon half breeds?  The secret of Kobol will answer much, I think.




I like your first theory and the first part of the second theory a lot.  A little skeptical of the last part of the second theory.


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## Storm Raven (Aug 9, 2005)

TanisFrey said:
			
		

> Or members of the Quorum saw the witting on the wall that the military was/will be in charge and latached onto the first thing that might be used aginst Adama.  That is why Zerak is hidding Roslin.




Or, they could have declared her insane, submitted to Tigh that arresting her was the right thing for Adama to do, but that he had no need to impose martial law any longer, as they would select a new President forthwith and calm the situation down. Given that Baltar was missing at the time, Zarek would likely have been selected, which would seem like the self-interested thing for him to do. But instead, he went along with Roslin.


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## Truth Seeker (Aug 9, 2005)

*A Special Request.*

To *Storm Raven and Elcliptic*...

I see the passion that flies between thee both, and hence, you both are the perfect candidates to what is coming to be asked of you.

After this Friday coming, I will be away for two weeks, one week at Gen Con, and the other, away from the PC, as much as possible.

Therefore, I will like to see the maintained esp. prep pages continue, while I am away.

*Storm Raven*, ye is charged with the duty to post the esp. prep page for BSG Season 2, Part 6* August 19*, with a quote, from the previous show (part 5.)

*Elcliptic*, ye is also charged, with doing BSG Season 2, Part 7,* August 26*, with a quote from Part 6.

I could have asked anyone else, but seeing the fires of thought and some unmentionables , I find that you both are fitted and able to handle such a gracious and honorable duty.

Thus, while I rest, the decision to approach thee in earnest, is a honest action, and no hidden agenda is not being sought.

If you both feel, that the burden is too heavy in acceptance...and seek to decline, your decisions will be respected, without any asked conditions.

Your response is awaited.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Aug 9, 2005)

It still is not definitive, but I now think I have something to make a stronger case for the 12 models referring to 12 human-like models of cylon.  

From Beliefnet.com: 







> *The Souls of Cylons *
> _ Ron Moore, executive producer of Battlestar Galactica, talks about the theology behind the Sci Fi Channel series.  _
> 
> *The Cylon named Number 6 seems to be suffering from a Madonna/whore complex, talking about sin and redemption while leading Dr. Baltar to bed. *
> ...





This whole article is here: Obviously there is religious content on these pages.
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/166/story_16650_1.html

There is some interesting discussion about the one true god of the cylons later in the article.


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## Fast Learner (Aug 9, 2005)

I'd read that when it was first posted, but it still left doubt for me that, you know, maybe "mechanical and unfeeling" is one type of human. 

I'm in the 12 human models camp, but won't be stunned if it turns out to be wrong.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Aug 9, 2005)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> I'd read that when it was first posted, but it still left doubt for me that, you know, maybe "mechanical and unfeeling" is one type of human.



Good point.  So how can we apply that to other models...

Raiders:  Live fast, die young?
Base Ships: Overcompensating for an inferiority complex?


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## Fast Learner (Aug 9, 2005)

LOL, excellent suggestions. 

That _is_ where the theory kinda fell apart for me.


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## Elf Witch (Aug 9, 2005)

I have noticed that the subject of who is right and who is wrong on this Adama/Roslin issue is all over the boards and that it is causing flame wars as people defend their side.

I think they are both in the wrong. Adama had his mind up and would not budge when Roslin brought up the arrow. He was very closed minded about it. As Roslin going behind his back with Starbuck I understand why she did that the ship she needed was about to be destroyed and it was obivious that Adama does not care about finding Earth. But she should have gone to the Quorum for backing. 

Once the deed was done Adama totally mishandled it. Instead of going to the Quoram and asking them to remove the President he sent armed men after her. 

They both were counting on the other one to be bluffing. Well they were not i stead they behaved like strong willed children with the people of the fleet caught between them and it is the people of the fleet who are going to pay the heaviest cost for this.


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## MaxKaladin (Aug 9, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> The main point of contention here is that I fundamentally disagree with the notion that somehow, Adama's control of the military is independent of the civilian government.



I don't think it is.  I don't think I'm going too far by saying that I suspect most people here would agree that the arrest was illegal by the Articles of Colonization.  Rather, I think the main point of contention is whether he was right to arrest Roslin and I think this issue goes beyond the legalities of the arrest for many people.  I think that the main point of contention is between those who think that the circumstances justified Adama's actions and those who don't.


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## Rykion (Aug 10, 2005)

In regards to Tigh's wife, I definitely don't think she is a Cylon. I think she is ambitious and left Tigh years ago when she found out he didn't share her ambitions. She somehow survived the destruction of the Colonies, and returned to Tigh hoping he had become more power hungry now that he was 2nd in command of all the military. She found him content to stand behind Commander Adama, but she was introduced to a power hungry man, Tom Zarek. She killed or arranged for the death of Zarek's man that failed to kill the President. She wanted to introduce Colonel Tigh to some people she had met, but we never saw this happen. I believe that she might be working with Zarek to create turmoil and allow him to gain power. The President has been delivered into Zarek's hands. He might try to eliminate the President, or he might allow her to lead a rebellion in hopes of taking over after her death.

I believe that the Cylons want the Colonials to lead them to Earth. I'm not sure that they want to wipe out Earth. A cut scene on the first season DVD revealed that one of the lords of Kobol declared himself the only true god and this led to conflict on Kobol. Six's reaction seems to indicate that this is the Cylon god. I believe the Cylons are looking for Earth to see if the inhabitants are worshipping this deity.


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## Truth Seeker (Aug 10, 2005)

Elf Witch said:
			
		

> I have noticed that the subject of who is right and who is wrong on this Adama/Roslin issue is all over the boards and that it is causing flame wars as people defend their side.
> 
> I think they are both in the wrong. Adama had his mind up and would not budge when Roslin brought up the arrow. He was very closed minded about it. As Roslin going behind his back with Starbuck I understand why she did that the ship she needed was about to be destroyed and it was obivious that Adama does not care about finding Earth. But she should have gone to the Quorum for backing.
> 
> ...




Well, I know for myself, between these two...together, they can rock...but right now, their seperate ideals is what keeping them apart.


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## LightPhoenix (Aug 10, 2005)

A point that I haven't seen anyone make with regards to Roslin/Starbuck/Adama is the fact that Adama lied to the fleet. Starbuck started off on Adama's side, it wasn't until she found out that he, the man that is almost a father to her, lied to her and everyone else that she chose her side. Starbuck _could_ have just said, "frak you all" and done her merry thing. She chose to believe the person who she thought was being truthful. Is that the case? We'll have to wait and see.

Side point, related to my post above - Starbuck seems to have some degree of spirituality, for her to throw in with Roslin. An aspect of her and everyone save Roslin that is vastly downplayed.

Since I haven't weighed in on the Adama/Roslin conflict, I think the whole purpose of their plot isn't to show one side or the other as bad. I think what is really being shown here is that military and civilians exist in a symbiotic relationship. When they fight each other instead of working together, that causes chaos and destruction. Something that definitely can not be plaguing the Humans at this point in time. Roslin and Adama shouldn't be at odds, they should be working together, and both of them are too damned stubborn for their own good. The upside is, when they _do_ start working together, their leadership will be a powerful force for the Humans. There's going to be differences, and negotiation, those must by necessity exist. Mutinies and martial law are not the answer though.

By the way, there's your new alliterative sourcebook - Mutinies and Martial Law.


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## wingsandsword (Aug 10, 2005)

Rykion said:
			
		

> I believe that the Cylons want the Colonials to lead them to Earth. I'm not sure that they want to wipe out Earth. A cut scene on the first season DVD revealed that one of the lords of Kobol declared himself the only true god and this led to conflict on Kobol. Six's reaction seems to indicate that this is the Cylon god. I believe the Cylons are looking for Earth to see if the inhabitants are worshipping this deity.



I like this theory.  It has seemed for a while like the Cylons are herding the Colonials, they have had them at the brink of extermination for some time, and always seem to let them get away.  

It does seem like the Cylons are intentionally trying to make the Prophecy come true (not that they specifically wanted Galactica or Roslin to survive originally, just that they knew that some ships would escape according to their battle plan), and once the humans began their search for Earth, the Cylons are following them the entire way.  The idea that they are seeking Earth as a place where humans share their religion is very interesting.  

I won't go too far into detail to keep this non-religious on this board, but given what the major religions of Earth are, the Cylons would have field day with their own monotheistic belief system if they encountered modern Earth.  Of course, we don't know what stage of development Earth is at in new BSG.  In old BSG we knew it was "modern day" from almost the beginning when they intercepted a broadcast of the Apollo 11 landing, and of course found Earth in the abysmal "Galactica 1980" second season.


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## Rykion (Aug 10, 2005)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Side point, related to my post above - Starbuck seems to have some degree of spirituality, for her to throw in with Roslin. An aspect of her and everyone save Roslin that is vastly downplayed.




Starbuck has been shown to be very spiritual in the series leading up to making the decision to go after the arrow.  She prayed that the lords of Kobol would receive the souls of the dead in the miniseries.  When she was stranded on the planet she started talking directly to the lords.  In the episode in which she interrogated the cylon, she recognized when he quoted scripture.  Later she pulled out two statuettes from her locker and prayed for the cylon's soul.  Starbuck has shown more religious belief than any other officer aboard Galactica.


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## drothgery (Aug 10, 2005)

My not-so-loony theory for the basic history of the new Battlestar Galactica universe is
1) FTL technology discovered in the not-too-distant future.
2) Fringe religious group founds a colony on Kobol, located in some obscure corner of the galaxy, and prospers
3) The 12 Colonies founded as secondary colonies from Kobol (though quite possibly few on Kobol remember that Kobol was originally a colony from Earth at this point)
4) Some major cataclysmic event renders Kobol uninhabitable
5) Much later, the main timeline of the series starts with the first Cylon wars

The follow-on to this is, of course, that the Cylons really are interested in destroying all humans. They want to find earth because it's the only lead they've got on where else humanity might be at.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Aug 10, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> It does seem like the Cylons are intentionally trying to make the Prophecy come true (not that they specifically wanted Galactica or Roslin to survive originally, just that they knew that some ships would escape according to their battle plan), and once the humans began their search for Earth, the Cylons are following them the entire way.  The idea that they are seeking Earth as a place where humans share their religion is very interesting.




So if the cylons' goal is to find Earth, does that mean that Adama _ is _ a cylon?  It was his idea to go to Earth (based upon his lie that the command staff knew of its location).  If Adama is not a cylon, and the cylons' goal is to find Earth, their entire plan hinged upon the chance of someone pulling the survivors together and searching for, or stumbling on, a legend.  Unless of course the Cylons all along beleived that by doing what they did, they would set the conditions for the prophecy, and that the prophecy would be true and lead them to Earth.


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## Storm Raven (Aug 10, 2005)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> A point that I haven't seen anyone make with regards to Roslin/Starbuck/Adama is the fact that Adama lied to the fleet.




Just to be pedantic, I'll point out that I made this point a while ago.


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## WizarDru (Aug 10, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Just to be pedantic, I'll point out that I made this point a while ago.




You weren't the only one, either.


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## PoppaGunch (Aug 10, 2005)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> About the destruction on Caprica:
> If I remember correctly, they noted in the mini-series that nuclear bombs were detonated in the upper atmosphere of the planets. I think the Cylons primarily relied on the radiation to kill the population, trying to keep the infrastructure in a good shape.




Actually while an air blast does do less damage, the raditiation from such an attack dissapates much quicker than a ground blast.  Ground blasts create the radioactive fallout that is the most dangerous (long term) part of a nuclear attack.
In tactical planning, a few well places air blasts create an EMP effect that would wipe out most electronic equipment.  It does not create much fallout.  To get a good long lasting radiation effect you need to turn up some dirt (so to speak).  This means a ground burst.
Perhaps the cylons blasted undeveloped areas and let the radiation taint the developed areas.  The use of a neutron bomb would cause less physical damage and a ton of more radiation (they don't actually ignore buildings, they simply don't have as large a blast, its the radiation from those buggers thats so nasty).  That would actually be more likely since most deadly radiation from a nuclear attack is actually gone in only a couple of months (except the areas they call "hot spots" where more fallout occured).  With a Neutron bomb you get a longer life.

Ok, done being a nuke geek.  Back to the real discussion.


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## Truth Seeker (Aug 10, 2005)

PoppaGunch said:
			
		

> Actually while an air blast does do less damage, the raditiation from such an attack dissapates much quicker than a ground blast. Ground blasts create the radioactive fallout that is the most dangerous (long term) part of a nuclear attack.
> In tactical planning, a few well places air blasts create an EMP effect that would wipe out most electronic equipment. It does not create much fallout. To get a good long lasting radiation effect you need to turn up some dirt (so to speak). This means a ground burst.
> Perhaps the cylons blasted undeveloped areas and let the radiation taint the developed areas. The use of a neutron bomb would cause less physical damage and a ton of more radiation (they don't actually ignore buildings, they simply don't have as large a blast, its the radiation from those buggers thats so nasty). That would actually be more likely since most deadly radiation from a nuclear attack is actually gone in only a couple of months (except the areas they call "hot spots" where more fallout occured). With a Neutron bomb you get a longer life.
> 
> Ok, done being a nuke geek. Back to the real discussion.




Isn't it just scary, how much stuff we actually know these days...but when it comes to this show...right now, it is just a lot of guess work.


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## WizarDru (Aug 10, 2005)

Truth Seeker said:
			
		

> Isn't it just scary, how much stuff we actually know these days...but when it comes to this show...right now, it is just a lot of guess work.




Actually, I think it's both impressive and fascinating that they put that much thought into it.  Although the firefight in the last episode seemed to be lacking in some kickback...but I wasn't watching too closely.


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## LightPhoenix (Aug 10, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Just to be pedantic, I'll point out that I made this point a while ago.




Not pedantic at all!  I must have missed it amongst all the argument in the last two threads.  Honestly, I kind of started glazing over all of it when it started getting out of hand in the last thread, and carried that over to this one as well.  Sorry!


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## MaxKaladin (Aug 10, 2005)

I suspect the various cylon factions have different reasons for wanting to allow humans to survive and some of them want them to get to earth, again for different reasons.  I rather doubt they want Galactica to be around though so they're trying to get rid of Galactica without taking out the rest of the fleet.  

Starbuck is joining my short list of characters who has some idea of how to be properly armed after the scene where she starts unpacking guns and handing them to Helo.  The king is still Brendan Fraser's character in the "Mummy" movies with his roll-o-guns and then his trunk-o-guns, but Starbuck is now on the list.  As a general rule, you're never properly armed until people start complaining about how much armament you have.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Aug 10, 2005)

MaxKaladin said:
			
		

> As a general rule, you're never properly armed until people start complaining about how much armament you have.



  I've seen more than my share of D&D characters with that attitude.  "You couldn't have hit me!  Any blow surely would have defelcted off of one of my five swords, two battle axes, eight daggers, and three shields strapped to my body."


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## MaxKaladin (Aug 10, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> I've seen more than my share of D&D characters with that attitude.  "You couldn't have hit me!  Any blow surely would have defelcted off of one of my five swords, two battle axes, eight daggers, and three shields strapped to my body."



Back in the early 90s I had a traveller character who kept an entire arsenal in his room on the group's ship.  It was specifically designed to contain the maximum allowable armament for every law level so he could always be armed as well as legally possible on any world they visited (and he had plenty of concealable stuff as well that he carried even when NOT legal).


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## drothgery (Aug 10, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> So if the cylons' goal is to find Earth, does that mean that Adama _ is _ a cylon?  It was his idea to go to Earth (based upon his lie that the command staff knew of its location).  If Adama is not a cylon, and the cylons' goal is to find Earth, their entire plan hinged upon the chance of someone pulling the survivors together and searching for, or stumbling on, a legend.  Unless of course the Cylons all along beleived that by doing what they did, they would set the conditions for the prophecy, and that the prophecy would be true and lead them to Earth.




Why? If the fleet didn't come up with the idea to look for Earth on their own after a while, one of the Cylon infiltrators could have suggested it, and made the idea sound reasonable, without too much trouble.

Besides, Adama isn't all that interested in looking for Earth; he just wanted the fleet to think that they had some goal in mind. The one move that could reasonably be considered "looking for Earth" was Roslin sending Starbuck after the arrow.


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## Elf Witch (Aug 10, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> I like this theory.  It has seemed for a while like the Cylons are herding the Colonials, they have had them at the brink of extermination for some time, and always seem to let them get away.
> 
> It does seem like the Cylons are intentionally trying to make the Prophecy come true (not that they specifically wanted Galactica or Roslin to survive originally, just that they knew that some ships would escape according to their battle plan), and once the humans began their search for Earth, the Cylons are following them the entire way.  The idea that they are seeking Earth as a place where humans share their religion is very interesting.
> 
> I won't go too far into detail to keep this non-religious on this board, but given what the major religions of Earth are, the Cylons would have field day with their own monotheistic belief system if they encountered modern Earth.  Of course, we don't know what stage of development Earth is at in new BSG.  In old BSG we knew it was "modern day" from almost the beginning when they intercepted a broadcast of the Apollo 11 landing, and of course found Earth in the abysmal "Galactica 1980" second season.




Just a little nitpick. The radio signal that carried the image could have been traveling in space for thousands of years that point was made by Boomer who had an understanding of this type of communication. So it was kind of up in the air about Earth and how far along it was in development. 

 The second season does not exist  Both Glen Larson and Richard Hatch in their versions ignored it.  


I always thought BSG story was about the journey finding Earth. Actually getting there was alaways something that should be left for the finale.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Aug 11, 2005)

PoppaGunch said:
			
		

> Ok, done being a nuke geek.  Back to the real discussion.




I was kinda surprised to see, in the season ender, actual devastation in Caprica City.  I mean, we'd seen so little devastation in the previous city.

Perhaps a mix of regular nukes and neutron bombs was used?  Regular nukes used for hard targets (like, say, the Colonies' command bunkers), and airburst neutron bombs around the cities to exterminate the human vermin.

Brad


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## Kobold Avenger (Aug 11, 2005)

PoppaGunch said:
			
		

> Actually while an air blast does do less damage, the raditiation from such an attack dissapates much quicker than a ground blast.  Ground blasts create the radioactive fallout that is the most dangerous (long term) part of a nuclear attack.
> In tactical planning, a few well places air blasts create an EMP effect that would wipe out most electronic equipment.  It does not create much fallout.  To get a good long lasting radiation effect you need to turn up some dirt (so to speak).  This means a ground burst.



Some of the nukes in the miniseries look like they hit the ground.  Such as that one which took out Baltar's house and destroyed Six on Caprica.


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## WizarDru (Aug 11, 2005)

One thing to take into consideration is the needs of a televison show and cinematic presentation versus totally consistent reality;  I think we can't read too much into the visuals from the show, for example.  I don't think Baltar's house was hit by the result of a nuclear explosion, unless Baltar received some form of radiation treatment I missed.  It could have just been a mass driven projectile; the force of a nuclear weapon without the radiation.  The ecosystem seems pretty unharmed by the whole thing, really....but again, it's expensive to represent the world otherwise.  The same applies to Starbuck's competence value - she's central to a lot of conflicts and skills because it's much easier for the writers to create and audience to follow if they use the same viewpoint characters.  They didn't use Starbuck because she was the best sniper...they used her because it was much easier to use her in 'Colonial Day' than another minor character we were unfamiliar with.

I really rather like Starbuck as a character.  She's represented as uncompromising and unhappy...but all on her own terms.  She is a mark of how far we've come in that her gender isn't really considered a factor in whethers she's believable as a character (or unbelievable, depending on your feelings).

I think the show has to make concessions (as all shows do) in the absence of an infinite budget and infinite time to develop the story.  This sometimes leads to inconsistincies that only we die-hards actually notice.  And that's OK in my book.


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## dravot (Aug 11, 2005)

Interesting info on Starbuck's character from Ron Moore's <a href="http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/07/index.html#a000059">BSG Blog</a>



> The original character was supposed to be the best pilot in the fleet and the best card player, so I always saw those two attributes as integral to the role. Also in the original was the conceit that Starbuck and Apollo were inevitably assigned the most important positions in any mission and they carried out a variety of tasks that had little or nothing to do with flying Vipers and I decided to continue that conceit for continuity and for practicality -- you use your regulars to tell story in TV, that's why you're paying them. This is one of those areas where the realism of our fictional universe has to give way to the realism of producing the show. Could we have introduced a new sniper character for the final action scene in "Bastille Day"? Of course. But would that have been as dramatic or interesting as having Kara be the sniper while Lee is in the center of the action? Probably not. Could we have introduced a different pair of shipboard investigators to deal with the assassination plot in "Colonial Day"? Absolutely. But the show is about our group of regular characters, and handing over an entire investigative storyline to two people we've never seen before simply isn't as good as letting Kara and Lee do it -- as long as we can plausibly believe they'd handle those chores. And yes, I think that given the premise of the show, namely that there are only a handful of survivors to begin with and that Galactica herself was undermanned when the attack went down, I can accept Kara being asked to do a variety of roles.
> 
> I also frankly enjoy watching Kara take on many of the traditionally male roles in the show, as the leading hero(ine), which more often than not involves being extraordinarily adept at more than one thing. (James Bond, anyone?) Some of it is just my own perverse pleasure at watching us explode gender roles and stereotypes and seeing Kara Thrace be the go-to character in a genre which typically demands that person be a man. And truth to tell, if she were still a he, I strongly suspect that this question wouldn't come up at all.


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## WizarDru (Aug 11, 2005)

Hah!  FLAWLESS VICTORY!

About Kara, anyways.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Aug 11, 2005)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> Hah!  FLAWLESS VICTORY!
> 
> About Kara, anyways.




Why do I smell a conspiracy between WizarDru and Dravot?  That was a little too convenient...  

Actually that all does make perfectly good sense, especially when talking about the needs of a TV show.  I just accept the idea that Caprica City is in pretty decent shape for a major city following a nuclear holocaust, that somehow Starbuck and Apollo can and will do anything important, and that Starbucks car is a Hummer, the guns look like real Earth guns of today etc. etc.  

Face it, this show is on SciFi Channel, their budget will be limited.  Spend the money on one more episode, rather than trying to fabricate amazing sets and some unique vehicles and weapons.


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## dravot (Aug 11, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> Why do I smell a conspiracy between WizarDru and Dravot?  That was a little too convenient...



Sir, your insinuation wounds me deeply.    



			
				Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> Actually that all does make perfectly good sense, especially when talking about the needs of a TV show.  I just accept the idea that Caprica City is in pretty decent shape for a major city following a nuclear holocaust, that somehow Starbuck and Apollo can and will do anything important, and that Starbucks car is a Hummer, the guns look like real Earth guns of today etc. etc.
> 
> Face it, this show is on SciFi Channel, their budget will be limited.  Spend the money on one more episode, rather than trying to fabricate amazing sets and some unique vehicles and weapons.



I said this last year, but had to wait for Ron to validate my assessment.


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## WizarDru (Aug 11, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> Why do I smell a conspiracy between WizarDru and Dravot?  That was a little too convenient...




We've had conversations about this sort of thing before...and this very same topic was discussed heavily by JMS during the filming of Babylon 5.  There are realities that need to be addressed in the making of a show like this.  The same issues applied there as here.  For that matter, the same applies to lots of shows, where realism must needs be sacrificed (to varying degrees) for the benefit of brevity, story impact and all the other reasons.  A show like CSI, ER or even Law & Order, for example.  It's pretty funny that Ron Moore just updated his blog with the exact same thing I said, not long after I said it.

But, you know...I'm Wile E. Coyote...Super *GENIUS*!


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## dravot (Aug 11, 2005)

Oh, and one other piece of insight from Ron Moore's blog, talking about Tigh's poor choices so far this season:







			
				RonMoore said:
			
		

> Q: "I'm curious as to what characters we are supposed to like at this point in the second season. Adama, Roslin, the XO, and Apollo have all been disappointments. Adama has been a non-factor due to his injury but is at the root of the martial law problem along with Roslin since they begin working at cross purposes. Roslin has turned into this Jim Jones/David Koresh type figure and added a drug addiction to it which I find off putting. The XO can't make a good decision (other than to go back to Kobol) and has turned into more of an alcoholic than ever. He's let his wife manipulate him for worse as well. Apollo seems like an ingrateful whelp with a chip on his shoulder, going against both the military and his father. Starbuck hasn't been much better, going against Adama and then tooling around Caprica reliving her old life and playing ball games. Which character has shown any redeeming values this season?"
> 
> It's up to you to decide who you like and who you don't. Personally, I like all of them. I like their flaws and I like their virtues, and for me, it's not a matter of finding redemption for anyone as much as it is a matter of allowing each character to be true to who and what they are and finding the most emotionally truthful storyline for them each week.
> 
> Sure, Tigh's made bad decisions and he'll likely make more, but isn't it interesting how all the good he did last season, all the good decisions he made, are suddenly overshadowed by the few bad choices he made this season? Tigh saved the entire ship during the miniseries, held the crew together through the nightmare of "33", located the lost fleet in "Scattered" and knew how to defeat the Centurion boarding party in "Valley of Darkness," but now that he's made a few bad calls (and some were really bad) he's called a worthless loser. What does that say about the nature of heroism? Does it mean that bestowing the title of Hero is less about discerning the intrinsic nature of a man than it is simply another example of the old game of "Yeah, but what have you done for me lately?" We love you today, but if you screw up tomorrow, you're history. Maybe that's only fair. Maybe that's the way it's supposed to work. Maybe. Again, it's up to you to decide, you're the audience. Me, I love Tigh and Starbuck and all of'em. Warts and all.


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## TanisFrey (Aug 11, 2005)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> One thing to take into consideration is the needs of a televison show and cinematic presentation versus totally consistent reality;  I think we can't read too much into the visuals from the show, for example.  I don't think Baltar's house was hit by the result of a nuclear explosion, unless Baltar received some form of radiation treatment I missed.  It could have just been a mass driven projectile; the force of a nuclear weapon without the radiation.  The ecosystem seems pretty unharmed by the whole thing, really....but again, it's expensive to represent the world otherwise.  The same applies to Starbuck's competence value - she's central to a lot of conflicts and skills because it's much easier for the writers to create and audience to follow if they use the same viewpoint characters.  They didn't use Starbuck because she was the best sniper...they used her because it was much easier to use her in 'Colonial Day' than another minor character we were unfamiliar with.
> 
> I really rather like Starbuck as a character.  She's represented as uncompromising and unhappy...but all on her own terms.  She is a mark of how far we've come in that her gender isn't really considered a factor in whethers she's believable as a character (or unbelievable, depending on your feelings).
> 
> I think the show has to make concessions (as all shows do) in the absence of an infinite budget and infinite time to develop the story.  This sometimes leads to inconsistincies that only we die-hards actually notice.  And that's OK in my book.



IF we look at US naval history....  When Air Craft carriers were first induced into the fleet, Congress Debated for awhile about whom could Comand the ship.  The concern was that Battle ship Comanders would domaite the assiments and run the ship like a Battle Ship.  Naval air core officers said that new taticts needed to be developled for this new class of ship.  Congress finley decided that only avaitors could comand air craft carriers.  The higher ranking avaitors had to start to learn how to manover large ships. 

So I find it perfectly reasonable that the highter ranking pilots the Battle Star have to learn new functions.  So that they will be able to run the ship in the future when take over new poistions in the fleet.


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## Elf Witch (Aug 11, 2005)

dravot said:
			
		

> Interesting info on Starbuck's character from Ron Moore's <a href="http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/07/index.html#a000059">BSG Blog</a>




With all due respect to Ron Moore my dislike of Starbuck has nothing to do with her being a female. And my feeling of hey she is way to good at everything would not be dimished if she were a male.

On the old BSG Apollo and Starbuck did do a lot of things but most of it made sense to their training. We never saw Starbuck as a sniper or as an intergator and in the murder mystery the sleuths were Apollo and Boomer. 

As a woman I want to see strong female leads. I like woman who can kick butt and take names. But IMO she does not come of a strong woman she comes across as  a know it all jerkwho is just so messed up in the head. So basically we get this message that strong woman are just messed up in the head.  

On the old BSG Sheba could fly and fight as well as any man and she did not have to be a ball breaking b**ch to accomplish this.


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## WizarDru (Aug 11, 2005)

Elf Witch said:
			
		

> As a woman I want to see strong female leads. I like woman who can kick butt and take names. But IMO she does not come of a strong woman she comes across as a know it all jerkwho is just so messed up in the head. So basically we get this message that strong woman are just messed up in the head.




So you don't think there's room for a spectrum of strong female characters? How do you feel about Roslin, Boomer, Dualla and Callie, among others? Every single character on the show has issues of one sort or another. Adama clearly is 'messed up in the head' in that he still has emotional issues to work out. Tigh clearly has them by the truckload. Apollo comes across as just about as good a pilot as Starbuck, except he also gets to be a diplomat, negotiator and accomplished leader (and while Starbuck can lead, she's not the best at it, by far).

I mean, I can understand not liking her...she's a bitter pill to swallow at times; but she certainly isn't any more messed up in the head than anyone else in the show, IMHO.

As for roles, in the original series, Apollo and Starbuck also did lots of non-standard duties.  They acted as security, marines, transport pilots, diplomats, were champion Triad players, interrogators, ran sensor runs (man those ships could do anything), trade negotiators (no one else in the fleet is more qualified to purchase supplies?) and stealth operatives ala Guns of Navarrone.  So I'm willing to let a lot slide in that regard.


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## Elf Witch (Aug 12, 2005)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> So you don't think there's room for a spectrum of strong female characters? How do you feel about Roslin, Boomer, Dualla and Callie, among others? Every single character on the show has issues of one sort or another. Adama clearly is 'messed up in the head' in that he still has emotional issues to work out. Tigh clearly has them by the truckload. Apollo comes across as just about as good a pilot as Starbuck, except he also gets to be a diplomat, negotiator and accomplished leader (and while Starbuck can lead, she's not the best at it, by far).
> 
> I mean, I can understand not liking her...she's a bitter pill to swallow at times; but she certainly isn't any more messed up in the head than anyone else in the show, IMHO.
> 
> As for roles, in the original series, Apollo and Starbuck also did lots of non-standard duties.  They acted as security, marines, transport pilots, diplomats, were champion Triad players, interrogators, ran sensor runs (man those ships could do anything), trade negotiators (no one else in the fleet is more qualified to purchase supplies?) and stealth operatives ala Guns of Navarrone.  So I'm willing to let a lot slide in that regard.




As I have said before I think that they have a tendency to go overboard on all the flaws for the characters. It is almost like they sat down with the a book of mental illnesses and picked one for each character. :\ 

Sometimes I feel if this is the best humanity has to offer then maybe the cyclons are right and they should be wiped out. But then someone will do something amazing like Lee helping the President escape or even Starbuck taking a chance to follow her beliefs and go retrieve the arrow of Apollo.

As for the old show there were two types of security council and warriors the warriors defended the Galatcia only. They were marines because the ship had no ground forces they were forced to assume that task because of need.As for bring transport pilots well it was said in the first episode that many shuttle pilots had been lost in the attack on Correlion so Viper piolts had to help fill in the losses. I can go on and on and debate each one and the reasons it made sense for them to be doing the job. But the real reason was they were the main heroes of the show and that is why they did it. But I never felt that say Starbuck was better at everything than say Apollo or Boomer or Sheba.

As for Starbuck yes I don't like the character she grates on me. And if a male was playing the character the same way it would grate on me as well.

I do have some issues though about double standards with the character. The male Starbuck could have sex all he wanted and no one judged him. Thrace has sex and it is called a mistake she is screwing up. She is judged to be promiscuous. Maybe she just likes sex. Why does it have to be a character flaw. Do people consider it a character flaw in James Bond.


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## WizarDru (Aug 12, 2005)

Elf Witch said:
			
		

> As for the old show there were two types of security council and warriors the warriors defended the Galatcia only. They were marines because the ship had no ground forces they were forced to assume that task because of need.As for bring transport pilots well it was said in the first episode that many shuttle pilots had been lost in the attack on Correlion so Viper piolts had to help fill in the losses.




It just seems terribly silly to me, from a realism standpoint that of all mankind's survivors, there was virtually no civilian pilots who survived or could be trained. The same situation applies with medical doctors on the current series. At least we've finally identified some medics. I find it real hard to believe that the Galactica didn't have a single merchant or trade negotiator, but that's the sort of handwaving I was talking about above. You just have to accept that it's better if we see main character do this stuff.



			
				Elf Witch said:
			
		

> As for Starbuck yes I don't like the character she grates on me. And if a male was playing the character the same way it would grate on me as well.




Point taken.



			
				Elf Witch said:
			
		

> I do have some issues though about double standards with the character. The male Starbuck could have sex all he wanted and no one judged him. Thrace has sex and it is called a mistake she is screwing up. She is judged to be promiscuous. Maybe she just likes sex. Why does it have to be a character flaw. Do people consider it a character flaw in James Bond.




Sean Connery sure did.  That was one of the reasons he quit the role.  

I think, though, that you're comparing apples to oranges. For one, they were two different kind of shows (the former a star wars knockoff with more of a family orientation, the latter a very adult drama). Kara isn't all women and acceptable standards were much different in 1978 than in 2005. Duala has had sex, which by the way she initiated pretty forcefully, and no one's describing that as a mistake. Every other pairing on the show has presented itself badly; tyrol and boomer, gauis and six, tigh and his wife, helo and boomer among others all have been messed up. If anything, the show is saying people who have sex IN GENERAL end up goofy, not just women. Heck, Kara is currently on track to have the series first NORMAL relationship.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Aug 12, 2005)

When is Starbuck called a screwup for having sex?  She calls herself a screwup when she and Apollo were arguing after she slept with Baltar.  Apollo didn't like the fact that she slept with him, but I think it is partly because he has feelings for her, partly because she has a history of getting drunk and sleeping with bad choices, and partly because it was Baltar.


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## Kobold Avenger (Aug 12, 2005)

Does anyone find it amusing that it was a professional sports team that survived the Cylon attack?

Sort of like what Ron Moore described as running into the LA Lakers after a nuclear holocaust.

Because here I was thinking if there was a resistance around they'd mainly be militairy with some civillian recruits...


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