# (Mongoose) Babylon 5 RPG - Full Details!



## Mongoose_Matt (Feb 21, 2003)

Mongoose Publishing is proud to announce the acquisition of the licence to produce the all new Babylon 5 roleplaying game from Warner Brothers Inc.

This is a project we are all very excited about here at Mongoose, for we are all great fans of the television series and its many spin-offs – without a doubt, Babylon 5 is the greatest science fiction epic yet created.  In many ways, the television series seems almost designed for roleplaying scenarios and campaigns, and we are putting all our efforts into ensuring the new game lives up to the milestone set by the licence.

The Babylon 5 roleplaying game will be available in the latter part of May 2003 and, like other Mongoose Publishing games, will be heavily supported with material guaranteed to delight any serious fan of the show.


Right, that is the official part out of the way!  Gamers have been talking about Babylon 5 RPGs for a long time now and so, naturally, people will have a lot of questions – I’ll try to answer a few anticipated queries here. . .

You will support the new B5 RPG, right?  It won’t just die?
In a word, no.  If you are familiar with our Judge Dredd and Slaine roleplaying games, you will know how serious we are about supporting them, and no fan of B5 will have to wait long for new material after the release of the main rulebook.  In fact, many of the forthcoming supplements have been written alongside the main rulebook in order to ensure maximum compatibility, continuity and game balance.  There is really too much to list here but rest assured, we have plans to cover the Minbari, Centauri, Narns and Earth Alliance in great detail, epic campaigns, the technology of different races, politics of the League of Non-Aligned Worlds and oodles more.  Yes, we will also cover the Vorlons and Shadows – but not right away!  We will make sure the Babylon 5 RPG is well supported – what happens next is up to you guys!

I hate D20.  Please don’t do it.
Well, it will have the d20 logo on the cover!  Seriously, we are well aware that two camps have firmly entrenched themselves over the rules system to be used in a new Babylon 5 RPG.  There are those who believe the d20 System, properly handled, will be just perfect.  And then there are the others who. . . don’t.  The new Babylon 5 RPG will be d20 – just not as you know it.  We are firm believers that a games system should be bent to fit the genre, never the other way round.  I can tell you now that there is no Armour Class in the game (though players of Judge Dredd could probably have guessed that!).  Combat will be utterly _lethal_ on the station.  Jeffery Sinclair may be an 8th level Officer (correct at time of writing!) but he only has 22 hit points – a couple of PPG shots is all it would take to send him straight to Medlab as an emergency case. . .  Rules for Starfuries, Raiders and Minbari warcruisers are already in place (and the Minbari are _deadly_!).  In a nutshell, we have completely disassembled the d20 System and built it back up, brick by brick.  If we found something that didn’t fit, we replaced it, or chucked it out altogether.  When something worked, it stayed.  If you have seen our previous books, you will be aware of how willing we are to bend and mutate the d20 rules to fit what we are trying to achieve.  All I can say is, you ain’t seen nothing yet – Babylon 5 will _not_ be D&D in space.  It will be its own game that just happens to use twenty-sided dice. . .

An 8th Level Officer?  Why not go for a classless/level-less system?
The original draft of the new B5 RPG did just this.  However, the archetypes in the TV show are so strong (think Rangers, Psi Cops, etc. . .) that they lend themselves naturally to a class based rules set.  Once that was in place, levels followed on rather neatly, especially after we changed a few more of the standard d20 rules.  What this means is that high level characters in the B5 RPG are certainly more capable than less experienced personalities – but, say, an 8th level officer can still be brought low by a 1st level character, either in combat or diplomatic manoeuvring. A bit like real life, really. . .  Playing the new B5 RPG is a _vastly_ different experience from playing any other d20 System game we have tried – it has its own unique flavour that is most definitely Babylon 5.

Are the Psionics Handbook rules being used for Telepaths?
Definitely not.  There is nothing wrong with those rules (they worked well for Judge Dredd) but Babylon 5 requires something of its own.  We’ll preview this at a later date but basically, the new telepath rules revolve around skills, a few feats and the all-encompassing P-Rating.

So, what happened to the B5 Wars licence?
Nothing to do with us, I promise you.  Yes, I have heard the rumours that the company who acquired the B5 RPG licence paid massive amounts of money to end the B5 Wars licence.  Not true.  In fact, the news came as much as a surprise to us – I had already partitioned off a section of the rulebook to, potentially, serve as a conversion mechanism between B5 Wars and the spaceship combat system we have in the RPG, so players could use whichever they preferred.  I personally view it as a great shame, as Mongoose and Agents of Gaming could perhaps have done great things together – but some things are not to be.  For our part, we believe AoG set a standard of fidelity to source material that must be matched if the Babylon 5 RPG is to be worthy of the name.  We appreciate the chance to pick up the flag and carry it further onwards.  We have also been in communication with the chaps behind AoG and are very proud to have Bruce Graw writing a few of the forthcoming B5 supplements.

Say what you like about Babylon 5, but it always seems to endure.  B5 projects have been declared dead more times than Lazarus. . .

Did you know there was another B5 RPG?
Indeed – I bought all the books as they came out.  Again, another great shame that nothing further was done (the phrase ‘third time’s a charm’ seems to run through my head these days. . .).  Some things we believe we can improve on from that material – other things they nailed right on the head first time round.  We are starting the new Babylon 5 RPG from scratch but know when to borrow from the greats.  Large arcing story lines and plenty of help for the Games Master to bring them to fruition is definitely in.  However, players will be encouraged, rather than dissuaded, to visit the Babylon 5 diplomatic station – even during the timeline of the series.  More on that at a later date. . .

What will the rulebook be like?
Over 300 pages in length, hardback, full colour throughout.  Packed full of stills from the television series and films.  For the rest, well, you will just have to wait for the previews. . .

So, all the players play Earthforce types, right?
Umm, no.  In the new Babylon 5 RPG, you can be human.  Or a Narn.  Centauri, Minbari, one of the League of Non-Aligned Worlds.  You can be an Earthforce officer, sure – if you want to play that type of campaign.  You could also be smugglers, lurkers, members of the Minbari warrior caste (or worker, or religious), Narn assassins (the Thenta Makur is in the main rulebook!), Centauri diplomats, agents of dark powers. . .  The list is endless.  What we are providing is a gateway in to the Babylon 5 universe – we are giving you help and guidelines on the sorts of campaigns you can run but we will not be railroading you either.  If you want to run an extended diplomatic campaign depicting Centauri politics on their homeworld, you will have all the tools you need to do so.  You could all play Psi Cops and track down blips.  All the rules are there.  You could even play a group of starfarers who just want to see ‘what is out there’, using the Babylon 5 diplomatic station as a base of operations.  It is all there.

Will there be any new, never before seen material?  Will it actually be part of the Babylon 5 universe?
Yes and yes.  Our initial work has been concentrated in representing the television series with the greatest fidelity possible.  However, as time goes on, it is inevitable that new ground will be broken as we examine, for example, the innermost workings of the Centauri royal court and Great Houses – this is already in an advanced state of completion.  That said, nothing escapes the attention of the Babylon 5 Continuity Editor, Fiona Avery and J. Michael Straczynski himself.  The Babylon 5 RPG _will_ be true to the setting.


It is our intention to make the Babylon 5 roleplaying game the closest representation of the television show that is possible.  No effort, no expense, and no resource has been or will be spared.  This is not just another licence to us – this is a licence we worked extremely hard to acquire because we wanted it and knew we could do it justice.  Over the next few years, we will be doing everything in our power to ensure that this game is the best resource for the Babylon 5 universe yet seen.

Be seeing you,


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## Psion (Feb 21, 2003)

w00t!


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## cardinal sinister (Feb 21, 2003)

Thank you lord...Thank you Jesus...Thank you lord...


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## Randolpho (Feb 21, 2003)

They could completely screw up the rules and I'd still buy this one.


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## Darke (Feb 21, 2003)

Great! Already pre-ordered! Sold!



das Darke


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## Mongoose_Matt (Feb 21, 2003)

Randolpho said:
			
		

> *They could completely screw up the rules and I'd still buy this one.  *




The legion of Top Secret Mongoose Playtesters, plus a few names I think B5 fans will respect, say we have not screwed the rules


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## Wulf Ratbane (Feb 21, 2003)

Mongoose_Matt said:
			
		

> *
> 
> The legion of Top Secret Mongoose Playtesters, plus a few names I think B5 fans will respect, say we have not screwed the rules   *




You heard it here first! Mongoose have acquired the rights to resurrect Top Secret! Playtesting has already begun!


Wulf


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## Darke (Feb 21, 2003)

Forgot to ask:

The Core book will be out in may, but what comes after that?

Tell us about the supplements and when they hit the shops.

das Darke


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## Mongoose_Matt (Feb 21, 2003)

Darke said:
			
		

> *Forgot to ask:
> 
> The Core book will be out in may, but what comes after that?
> 
> ...




Just for you guys at EN World, a quickie  

Alongside the main rulebook will be released thew first story arc, Fiery Trial (more on this at a later date), written by Bruce Graw.  Bruce is also hard at work finishing off a 200 page Earth Alliance hardback (this game _really_ will be complete in terms of info!), which will follow soon after.

As for stuff in the future, stay tuned.  More updates coming. . .


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## Leopold (Feb 21, 2003)

what kind of suppliments can we be expecting? Volrons (those big guys that were made of gas and had cloaks and hovered and had psionics) are going to be in there?

What time setting is this based in? After the TV show? During? Are there going to be rules stating you can pick a time frame? Can we see rules about mars and the colonies? Stats and settings? How many books out at once? What's the cycle of support? 3 books a year? 2?


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## Randolpho (Feb 21, 2003)

Mongoose_Matt said:
			
		

> *
> 
> The legion of Top Secret Mongoose Playtesters, plus a few names I think B5 fans will respect, say we have not screwed the rules   *




I'm sure you believe it, but not everyone agrees on what is a "good" rule. 

Which is why I said the rules are meaningless to me; I'm picking it up for source material at the least. Any cool rules I like I'll use. Anything I don't goes out the window.


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## Brown Jenkin (Feb 21, 2003)

Yet one more reason to buy Mongoose products. You may soon exceed my WotC outlays.

[Edit spelling]


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## Psion (Feb 21, 2003)

The questions are already being asked:

d20 logo or not? Based on d20 modern or not?


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## Darke (Feb 21, 2003)

Mongoose_Matt said:
			
		

> *Alongside the main rulebook will be released thew first story arc, Fiery Trial (more on this at a later date), written by Bruce Graw.*




Hehe, just a quick add-on question - story arc = adventure?

das Darke


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## Mongoose_Matt (Feb 21, 2003)

Leopold said:
			
		

> *What time setting is this based in? After the TV show? During? Are there going to be rules stating you can pick a time frame? Can we see rules about mars and the colonies? Stats and settings? How many books out at once? What's the cycle of support? 3 books a year? 2? *




A lot of questions - I'll do a full update on what is coming out after the rulebook at a later date but for now. . .

Any time and setting is possible with the main rulebook (full guidelines provided!), though we are zeroing in on the first season and the space station itself to begin with.  However, we are going to be detailing absolutely _everything_ so yes, Mars and the other colonies will be fully mapped and detailed as living, breathing places to visit and explore.  We'll initially be doing one release per month after the main rulebook.  What happens after that is rather up to you guys  

However, we are not skimping on anything.  I am a self-confessed B5 geek and I have made sure that we are producing the kind of game that I myself would want to buy and play.  That is really the best recommendation I can give it.


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## Mongoose_Matt (Feb 21, 2003)

Randolpho said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> Any cool rules I like I'll use. Anything I don't goes out the window.  *




I would expect nothing less from a good roleplayer


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## Darke (Feb 21, 2003)

@ Psion: It's in the first posting:

"I hate D20. Please don’t do it.
Well, it will have the d20 logo on the cover! ..."

Seems to be d20.

das Darke


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## Mongoose_Matt (Feb 21, 2003)

Psion said:
			
		

> *The questions are already being asked:
> 
> d20 logo or not? Based on d20 modern or not? *




d20 logo yes, d20 Modern, no - for some very good reasons that will become clear over time


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## Mongoose_Matt (Feb 21, 2003)

Darke said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Hehe, just a quick add-on question - story arc = adventure?
> 
> *




Not quite  

Mere scenarios were never going to be good enough for Babylon 5.  And a full blown campaign just is not possible in 128 pages.  Story arcs are the basic building block of campaigns in B5 - I'll see if I can do a preview for this in the near future to give you a suitable explanation. . .


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## Psion (Feb 21, 2003)

Mongoose_Matt said:
			
		

> *d20 logo yes, d20 Modern, no - for some very good reasons that will become clear over time   *




I can think of some very good reasons, but that perhaps has to do with the fact that I like d20 modern less than some folks around here. 

Reasons that will become clear, eh? Did you, perhaps, get a license with WotC to publish this as a stand-alone book? After all, you did say that it bears the d20 logo, but didn't say it uses the OGL.... hmmm.


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## Eridanis (Feb 21, 2003)

Looks like I'll be buying my first Mongoose book in May. I'm looking forward to it - but PLEASE DON'T SCREW IT UP! (Sounds like you've got your head in the right place to start, though. )

Will the main book be about $30, like most starter rulebooks these days? And you realize, of course, that you're competing with the pennies we're saving for the Season 2 DVDs? 

And space combat rules would be greatly appreciated, too, at some point...


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## Buttercup (Feb 21, 2003)

This is excellent news!

I was wondering, though, is Zathras going to make an appearance?


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## Steve Conan Trustrum (Feb 21, 2003)

Good news, Matt, but ...


... this was quite possibly the worst kept secret of all time


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## Swack-Iron (Feb 21, 2003)

Buttercup said:
			
		

> *I was wondering, though, is Zathras going to make an appearance? *




Zathras? Or do you mean Zathras?


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## Darrin Drader (Feb 21, 2003)

And so it begins.


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## KenM (Feb 21, 2003)

Buttercup said:
			
		

> *This is excellent news!
> 
> I was wondering, though, is Zathras going to make an appearance? *




  I want to play as one of Zathras's  brothers.


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## Eridanis (Feb 21, 2003)

KenM said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I want to play as one of Zathras's  brothers.  *




You'll have a very sad life. Probably a very sad death. Just a hunch.


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## Janos Antero (Feb 21, 2003)

Damn it, .the wait for this, ANY wait for this is going to suck


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## Damon Griffin (Feb 21, 2003)

*It was the dawn of the Third Edition of D&D, six years after the initial release of the previous effort to bring this TV show to eager gamers.  The Babylon Project was a 196-page softcover sourcebook, describing a place where roleplayers could work out their frustrations peacefully.  It was an eclectic place, a home away from home for serious roleplayers, munchkins, rules lawyers and power gamers: humans and aliens wrapped in two rules books and a GM's resource kit, all alone in the night. At the time it was thought to be our last, best hope for roleplaying B5.

This is the story of the next of the Babylon licenses.

The year is 2003. The name of the game is..."*

Uh, Matt, what is the name of the game?  
Anything but Babylon 5d20.  

--------------------------------------
"So this Vorlon says to me, he says, *Never ask that question!* and I says, *"IT'S THE ONLY QUESTION I'VE GOT, BABY!!"
*
     -- The Evil Midnight Bomber What Bombs Space Stations at Midnight


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## Mongoose_Matt (Feb 21, 2003)

Damon Griffin said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Uh, Matt, what is the name of the game?
> Anything but Babylon 5d20.
> ...




The Babylon 5 Roleplaying Game and Fact Book. . .


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## Swack-Iron (Feb 21, 2003)

Eridanis said:
			
		

> *You'll have a very sad life. Probably a very sad death. Just a hunch.  *




Well, at least there will be symetry.


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## trancejeremy (Feb 21, 2003)

Bah. I was still hoping it would be the Godzilla license. But this is pretty cool. Hopefully it won't suffer from any of the problems the first B5 RPG did.


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## Corinth (Feb 21, 2003)

HAPPY DANCE TIME!  Woot-diddly-woot-diddly-woot-diddly-woot!

d20 is the last, best hope for B5 gaming.  Let it not fail.


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## Brown Jenkin (Feb 21, 2003)

Just think we might now get the d20 stats for Jack the Ripper and King Authur.


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## Darrin Drader (Feb 21, 2003)

So Matt,

As an RPG freelancer and die-hard B5 fan, are there any freelancing opportunities?


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## thatdarncat (Feb 21, 2003)

I'll be e-mailing Matt as soon as I get home to arrange a time for an interview


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## Hygric (Feb 21, 2003)

After seeing what Mongoose did with Slaine, I have 153% confidence in them pulling this one off with great success!!!

I am a very happy B5 fan this morning!

Now all I want is for the remaining seasons to come out on DVD...


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## Assenpfeffer (Feb 21, 2003)

I had suspected (and was hoping) that this would be Mongoose's "Mystery License."  I'm happy to be right, and delighted that there will finally be a _viable_ B5 RPG out in the near future.


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## Ranger REG (Feb 21, 2003)

I'm interested in what kind of space combat rules will this game use. I'd be more interested in what kind of ship creation rules will this game use.

BTW, *Matt,* does that license includes miniatures combat games?


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## The Grey Dwarf (Feb 21, 2003)

Hygric said:
			
		

> *I am a very happy B5 fan this morning!
> *



And another one here.


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## Mongoose_Matt (Feb 21, 2003)

A few more answers;

1.  Zathras is mentioned in the main rulebook though, I have to confess, he has not been statted. Do you guys _really_ want his stats?  

2.  As for the many mails I have received with regards to freelancing and playtesting, I am afraid this game has been in development for nine months now.  The playtesting is done and the freelance opportunities went long ago. . .

3.  The main rulebook actually uses a converted Dragonstar system as a basis for its space combat.  However, you know us - we just can't leave anything alone    So, Starfuries can pivot in space, Vorlons have adaptive armour, the Minbari are _frightening_ and there are all sorts of other bits and pieces that have made this feel very different to the DS you all know and love.  However, I have been considering an advanced space combat game - it is not a priority as, at its core, this is not what a B5 RPG should be about, but it is on the cards. . .

4.  At this time, we have little wish to get into miniatures, I am afraid.  However, if you have your own miniatures collection (be it 28mm station personnel or spacecraft), they _are_ supported by the main rules.


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## Buttercup (Feb 22, 2003)

Mongoose_Matt said:
			
		

> *Zathras is mentioned in the main rulebook though, I have to confess, he has not been statted. Do you guys _really_ want his stats?  *




Knowing, would say.  Saying, would know.  Do not know, so cannot say.

Sorry, I just had to do that.  And no, I guess his stats aren't really that important.  I could always figure them out if I had to.  I'm just giddy with delight at the news.


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## Darke (Feb 22, 2003)

So when will the B5 RPG website see the light of the... net?



das Darke


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## fenzer (Feb 22, 2003)

Matt, thank you, thank you!.  This news has made my day.  I can't wait to see it.  May can't get here fast enough!


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## technomage (Feb 22, 2003)

*technomages*

I had to register after being linked to this chat from the B5 newsgroup.  I am shocked it has not been mentioned before, but when will the rules include technomages?  [opinion]They are, after all, the badest MFers in the B5 universe![/opinion]


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## Ranger REG (Feb 22, 2003)

Mongoose_Matt said:
			
		

> *
> 4.  At this time, we have little wish to get into miniatures, I am afraid.  However, if you have your own miniatures collection (be it 28mm station personnel or spacecraft), they _are_ supported by the main rules. *



Well, I want to know who has the license to make 28mm _B5_ miniatures, or action figures for that matter?

Would love to see _B5 MicroMachine_ collection.


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## Sulimo (Feb 22, 2003)

Mongoose_Matt said:
			
		

> *
> 
> d20 logo yes, d20 Modern, no - for some very good reasons that will become clear over time   *




A real silly idea IMO. To require the D&D PHB to play SF RPG. I thought it was really stupid with T20 too....


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## Darrin Drader (Feb 22, 2003)

Sulimo said:
			
		

> *
> 
> A real silly idea IMO. To require the D&D PHB to play SF RPG. I thought it was really stupid with T20 too.... *




Most likely the only thing you will need from the Player's Handbook will be the level advancement chart. D20 Modern has the exact same chart in it, so you can probably use either.


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## Plane Sailing (Feb 22, 2003)

Great news, Matt. I really look forward to seeing what you do with this!

Cheers


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## Psychotic Dreamer (Feb 22, 2003)

I'm looking forward to it, even if it ends up just being for the B5 source material


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## Mongoose_Matt (Feb 22, 2003)

Hi guys,

A few more answers;

1.  The B5 website is being worked on and should be up soon (along with Armageddon 2089).

2.  There have already been some B5 micromachines. . .

3.  We do indeed have rules for technomages, which will be appearing in the 2nd supplement to the game.  However, these will be of the nature that allow players and GMs to try the class out and do technomage 'cool' stuff.  A little later on, technomages will be getting their own full-blown sourcebook with more secrets and little details (as well as rules!) than you could ever hope to wish for!

This, incidentally, has proven to be _the_ biggest problem with the main rulebook - trying to squeeze everything in!  Right from the very start we decided that nothing would be skimped on and so, if we could not do it properly (as in the case with the technomage), we would not 'rush' it and just shoehorn material in.  I am taking this licence very seriously, so everything will either be done properly and in as much detail as possible, or not at all.  Suffice to say, the former option is the one we normally plump for  

4.  You do not need D&D to play B5 - you need the d20 rules.  The decision to make the main d20 rulebook fantasy in nature was not my decision, I am afraid    However, you really only need it for the fist part of character creation, level advancement and the occasional skill or feat (which, if you have been playing D&D, you will likely know off the top of your head).  _Everything_ else you need is in the B5 rulebook.  Everything.


I am actually a little behind schedule in writing the 4th supplement at the moment (Bad Matthew!), but I'll see if I can give you all a little tour of the main rulebook a little later on today or tomorrow. . .


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## Gallowglass (Feb 22, 2003)

Ok, first Matt this must rate as one of the worst kept secrets _ever_ and you must have sailed remarkably close to the wind regarding whatever the legal restriction was on announcing this until now.

But many congratulations and a warning: mess this up and you will know fear, you will know pain. And then you will die...  Serioulsy, please *please* don't mess this up!

As for using d20, well given what you need, surely you can do what T20 did an djust say "requires a core d20 book from WotC" and stick the xp table in _without_ explaining it...


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## Winterthorn (Feb 22, 2003)

I Am Soooo Excited!

*calming down now*

One can imagine the big smile on my face when I first layed my eyes on this announcement (Saturday morning 9:00 EST). What wonderful news to wake up to!  

I must also say "_I knew it!_" Or rather... We _all_ "knew" 

Matt, you mentioned in a post a few weeks past that you would also be willing to tell the tale as to why you had to keep quiet about this license for so long... If you've got the time, I'm really curious about the "story" behind the license acquistion.

I loved the series as it evolved on TV. I know Mongoose Publishing works hard to produce good d20 publications. If you folks at Mongoose are as keen and enthusiatic fans of B5 as I was, then I am confident you'll do a respectable job with the license. I'm looking forward to May 2003    

Additionally, I'm curious to know if Giant in the Playground, a.k.a. Rich Burlew is involved with Mongoose Publishing regarding this new license? I ask because he initiated a wonderful thread at wizards.com last March 2002 on his own d20 homebrew interpretation of B5. It was well done.  Rich also was one of 3 finalists in WotC's setting search. I think it would be cool is he was "onboard" with Mongoose in some capacity--the man has talent for RPG writing/design! (IHMO  Fate is ironic though--it's quite possible you've never heard of him!)

All in all, I'll be sure to save some money for next May!

Well done Matt  

-W.


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## Mongoose_Matt (Feb 22, 2003)

Winterthorn said:
			
		

> *Matt, you mentioned in a post a few weeks past that you would also be willing to tell the tale as to why you had to keep quiet about this license for so long... If you've got the time, I'm really curious about the "story" behind the license acquistion. *




Well, Warner Brothers is a rather large organisation, and it does not help that we are in the UK, dealing with their UK office, when all the initial approvals took place in the US.  Additionally, they changed their approval process halfway through our negotitations, which meant we had to begin once more at the very start  



			
				Winterthorn said:
			
		

> *
> Additionally, I'm curious to know if Giant in the Playground, a.k.a. Rich Burlew is involved with Mongoose Publishing regarding this new license? *




Oh, we have been in contact with Rich - ever since I saw his posts on the Wizards forums.  He has had some influence and input over the main rulebook, and we are currently discussing his writing of the Narn Regime. . .


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## Stad (Feb 22, 2003)

*B5 Combat*



> 3. The main rulebook actually uses a converted Dragonstar system as a basis for its space combat. However, you know us - we just can't leave anything alone  So, Starfuries can pivot in space, Vorlons have adaptive armour, the Minbari are _frightening_ and there are all sorts of other bits and pieces that have made this feel very different to the DS you all know and love. However, I have been considering an advanced space combat game - it is not a priority as, at its core, this is not what a B5 RPG should be about, but it is on the cards. . .




I realise your using input from Agents of Gaming which is a great thing. If advanced rules for the game ever get published (for space combat), will they include the conversion system you had for B5Wars? Or Merge the 2 rule systems into one?


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## Mongoose_Matt (Feb 22, 2003)

I really cannot answer that at the moment.  It is my feeling that B5 Wars is way too complex for an RPG.  Also, supporting a game system that is no longer on sale is problematic at best.  However, if fans want to put together their own conversion system, we'll certainly consider putting the best ideas on our web site.  And you never know where they may lead. . .


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## bolen (Feb 22, 2003)

Will it use hit points or a varriation of the vitality/wound points that are in spycraft/ star wars ect ?


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## Stad (Feb 22, 2003)

Mongoose_Matt said:
			
		

> *I really cannot answer that at the moment.  It is my feeling that B5 Wars is way too complex for an RPG.  Also, supporting a game system that is no longer on sale is problematic at best.  However, if fans want to put together their own conversion system, we'll certainly consider putting the best ideas on our web site.  And you never know where they may lead. . . *




That is still awesome. I have heard the current group of B5Wars players look eagerly at adapting Diplomats and other character classes into large campaigns of theirs.

And I fully understand trying to represent 1 person on a ship or vessel of 10-2000 would be a headache.

Again I cannot wait and am looking forward to May for this release.

Will there be any sneak peaks posted?


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## Mongoose_Matt (Feb 22, 2003)

Bolen:  Hit points - kinda.  This is one of the large changes to the system, though we have done so using a method that keeps the hit points we all know and love, using them in a slightly different manner to represent the sheer lethality of modern weapons in combat.  Players are going to be ducking for cover a great deal  

Stad:  I am working up a chapter preview of the main rulebook at the moment.  Should be posted in a few days.


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## bolen (Feb 22, 2003)

Matt

I'd love you to use this as a jumping off point and to publish other Hard science fiction settings using the same rules.

By the way you said you were using the dragonstar rules.  Is there a connection between mongoose and FFG (other then both being d20 publishers)?


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## Winterthorn (Feb 22, 2003)

Mongoose_Matt said:
			
		

> *Oh, we have been in contact with Rich - ever since I saw his posts on the Wizards forums.  He has had some influence and input over the main rulebook, and we are currently discussing his writing of the Narn Regime. . . *



That's good news. Glad to see he's on board with you folks! 

Now about the Narns... I've always had a soft spot for G'Kar and his beleaguered compatriots--alas, they are always being beaten up by the Universe  --I look forward to Rich's work regarding them!  

-W,


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## Darrin Drader (Feb 22, 2003)

Matt,

A few questions if you don't mind. 

Can you give us any teasers about how the rules will differentiate between mechanical technology vs. biotechnology? 

Will the Drakh be included in the core book? 

Are you going to do interior floorplans for any of the ships? 

Are you going to include stats and information for Babylon 4? 

Is there going to be enough information about the rest of the B5 universe to be able to set the game off the station? 

Did you get the rights to Crusade alone with the B5 license?

I am so looking forward to this.


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## Sulimo (Feb 22, 2003)

Mongoose_Matt said:
			
		

> *3.  We do indeed have rules for technomages, which will be appearing in the 2nd supplement to the game.  However, these will be of the nature that allow players and GMs to try the class out and do technomage 'cool' stuff.  A little later on, technomages will be getting their own full-blown sourcebook with more secrets and little details (as well as rules!) than you could ever hope to wish for!*




Which reminds me, how far does the license go? in the above case I'd think that both Crusade and the 'Passing of the Technomages' novel trilogy would be invaluable.


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## Mongoose_Matt (Feb 22, 2003)

A lot of questions this time!  Let's see what I can reveal. . .

1.  There is no connection between Mongoose and FFG, other than that we regard them as being one of the good guys in the industry.

2.  If it is hard sci-fi you are looking for, it does not get any harder than Armageddon 2089. . .

3.  The main rules concentrate on mechanical technology, though we have included glimpses of Vorlon craft and the Ikarrans.  This is an area that will be greatly expanded on in the future.

4.  There are no Drakh in the main rulebook, for reasons that will soon become obvious.

5.  We will indeed do floorplans for various spacecraft, though it is an open question whether they will begin appearing in the main rulebook - this will come down to space alone.  We want to make sure we get the actual station right without needing to compromise!

6.  We will cover B4 in the fulness of time, but not in the main rulebook (how often are your players going to go there, after all?).

7.  There will be enough information in the main rulebook to begin journeying away from B5, though we are leaving the kind of super detailing we have for the station in the main rulebook to the first set of supplements.  At all times, we have decided to either do material properly, or delay it until we can.  However, with our typical release schedule, you will not have long to wait for anything  

8.  We do indeed have Crusade, as well as the films, novels and pretty much anything else that has come out previosuly.

9.  Nobody has asked this yet, but we will indeed have the recipe for the Jovian Sunspot in the main rulebook.  Knock yourselves out while gaming


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## Ranger REG (Feb 22, 2003)

Sulimo said:
			
		

> *
> A real silly idea IMO. To require the D&D PHB to play SF RPG. I thought it was really stupid with T20 too.... *



I believe what *Mongoose_Matt* meant, business student *Sulimo,* that it should not be limited to one Wizards' core game book.

Whether you have _D&D Player's Handbook_ or _Star Wars_ or _d20 Modern,_ you can play _Babylon 5_ RPG.

IOW, it should be available to ALL _d20_ gamers, not just fans of _d20 Modern._ Think about it. Which is bigger pool of potential _B5_ consumers to tap, the general _d20_ pool (who owns at least any ONE of Wizards' core game books) or just the _d20 Modern_ pool (current owners of _d20 Modern_; others must be forced to buy both _d20 Modern_ and _B5_ RPG)?

If Mongoose Publishing wants to use rules from _d20 Modern,_ he can use the *Modern System Reference Document* at his convenience, even reprint the relevant rules for those who do not have _d20 Modern Core Rulebook._

_* Sighs *_ I gotta stop thinking like a Centauri merchant.


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## Stad (Feb 23, 2003)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> *
> IOW, it should be available to ALL d20 gamers, not just fans of d20 Modern. Think about it. Which is bigger pool of potential B5 consumers to tap, the general d20 pool (who owns at least any ONE of Wizards' core game books) or just the d20 Modern pool (current owners of d20 Modern; others must be forced to buy both d20 Modern and B5 RPG)?
> 
> If Mongoose Publishing wants to use rules from d20 Modern, he can use the Modern System Reference Document at his convenience, even reprint the relevant rules for those who do not have d20 Modern Core Rulebook.*



*


You mean the B5 RPG SB will require another sourcebook to play?*


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## Tarek (Feb 23, 2003)

*To Mongoose*

A lot of the "historical" data for the Babylon 5 Wars game came from a bunch of people who sifted through all things B5 and tried to make them fit together in a logical way; they are credited in B5Wars products as the HRT or Historical Repair Team.

Have you thought about getting in touch with that group regarding the B5 RPG? Personally, I think that they have done some very good work in the past, with Wars of the Centauri Republic being a stellar example of the kind of background information that they can produce.

Tarek


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## ColonelHardisson (Feb 23, 2003)

Stad said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> You mean the B5 RPG SB will require another sourcebook to play? *




Yes, as with anything d20, it will require the use of the 3e Player's Handbook. This will likely be for no more than the rolling and assigning of stats, and for experience points needed to reach the next level. The whole impetus behind the d20 movement is that WotC lets anyone use the system, as long as they get to sell Player's Handbooks.


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## BPIJonathan (Feb 23, 2003)

Mongoose_Matt said:
			
		

> *
> 
> The legion of Top Secret Mongoose Playtesters, plus a few names I think B5 fans will respect, say we have not screwed the rules   *




Nope, the rules are not screwed up.


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## Ranger REG (Feb 23, 2003)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> *
> The whole impetus behind the d20 movement is that WotC lets anyone use the system, as long as they get to sell Player's Handbooks. *



Or any other Wizards' core rulebooks (_Wheel of Time, Star Wars, Call of Cthulhu, d20 Modern_).


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## Stad (Feb 23, 2003)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> *
> Or any other Wizards' core rulebooks (Wheel of Time, Star Wars, Call of Cthulhu, d20 Modern). *




Ok, and even worse case I can borrow a friends when I need to look up a rule


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## Darke (Feb 23, 2003)

It's a new day so:

More infos! We want! We beg!

*hehe*

das Darke


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## Kaiyosama (Feb 23, 2003)

: procedes to jump into walls :

         

Thank you SO much!!!!!


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## Ranger REG (Feb 23, 2003)

Stad said:
			
		

> *
> Ok, and even worse case I can borrow a friends when I need to look up a rule  *



Well, you could always buy secondhand rulebook from secondhand bookstore. Should be cheap.

If you don't like fantasy, I would recommend _d20 Modern._ Pretty appropriate since a year from now, Wizards will publish a _d20 Future_ *supplement* for _d20 Modern._ It may go hand-in-hand with the _B5_ main rules.


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## Sulimo (Feb 24, 2003)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> *
> I believe what Mongoose_Matt meant, business student Sulimo, that it should not be limited to one Wizards' core game book.
> 
> Whether you have D&D Player's Handbook or Star Wars or d20 Modern, you can play Babylon 5 RPG. *




Well, I wasn't looking at this decision from a business standpoint, rather a conceptual one. I personally don't really like the idea of buying the main book for a RPG, and it doesn't include all the info needed to make a basic character.


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## Darrin Drader (Feb 24, 2003)

Sulimo said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Well, I wasn't looking at this decision from a business standpoint, rather a conceptual one. I personally don't really like the idea of buying the main book for a RPG, and it doesn't include all the info needed to make a basic character. *




That's how the D20 license works. Its the same story for the Farscape RPG, Spycraft, Jughe Dredd, and anything else with the D20 logo on it.


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## GiantInThePlayground (Feb 24, 2003)

Winterthorn said:
			
		

> *Additionally, I'm curious to know if Giant in the Playground, a.k.a. Rich Burlew is involved with Mongoose Publishing regarding this new license? *




Oh yeah, damn straight I'm weaseling my way into this particular venture!  

While my sudden exposure as a result of the Wizards contest happened after the bulk of the book was written, I was involved in the playtesting and certainly feel I contributed in fine-tuning the game's balance to some slight degree. 

Luckily, Matt had already seen my wizards.com thread; safe to say, if you liked the system I described there, you'll like what Mongoose has put together here. There's a lot of parallels, though obviously this book will be much, much deeper than my surface treatment and departs from it significantly in certain areas (which is a good thing). As someone who wouldn't play Chameleon Eclectic's B5 game if it was the last RPG on Earth, I'd say Mongoose has avoided making any of their mistakes. They've created the sort of game where you can, to paraphrase myself, "have that great moment where you sit down, open the book, and say, 'I'm gonna play a Centauri assassin!' or 'I'm gonna play a Minbari pilot!'"

I'm just starting to dip my toe into the Narn Regime, but I have some great ideas that I'm working on. I don't think it's a done deal, so I better get back to writing my outline for Matt.  Hopefully, this will be the beginning of a long and productive relationship!


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## Valen (Feb 24, 2003)

We live for the One. We die for the One.

Other games? Not the One.


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## Ranger REG (Feb 24, 2003)

Sulimo said:
			
		

> *
> Well, I wasn't looking at this decision from a business standpoint, rather a conceptual one. I personally don't really like the idea of buying the main book for a RPG, and it doesn't include all the info needed to make a basic character. *



Well, judging from the number of posts you've made, apparently you have been here long enough to know how this _d20_ thing work.

Almost all _d20_ product requires any one of the Wizards' core rulebook, even _Spycraft, Judge Dredd,_ and _T20: Traveller._

The only products that are standalone are _EverQuest_ and _Mutants & Masterminds._ You can count _GODLIKE_ but it is more of a conversion to their Hobgoblynn Press' own rules system presented in the book.

The fact they're going _d20_ means they want to tap into the _d20_ consumer base.


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## Kenpo Wolf (Feb 24, 2003)

I was hoping for a StarGate core book but as long as it B5, one of my top 5 favorite sci fi series of all time, I have one word for my excitement;

Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes 

I may have wen a little bit overboard but I'm very excited about the news. Now here is a suggestion. Please don't put the starship deckplans in the main book which would take up more space. I would much rather see a supplement devoted to deckplans


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## Ranger REG (Feb 24, 2003)

*A Strong Random Suggestion...*

To *Mongoose_Matt,*

After contemplating over the weekend, I have but one wish you should seriously consider:

Drop _d20._ Go OGL.

I'm serious.

I mean think about it. You got the most popular brand and trademark sci-fi genre, _Babylon 5._ You got a lot of _B5_ fans out there, not just within the RPG community.

With OGL, you can make this a standalone core rulebook, complete with its own character creation advancement rules, without the need for a Wizards' rulebook. That's a big plus when attracting _B5_ fans who may be interested in roleplaying, as well as gamers who are ... for lack of a better word ... less receptive to a product that is labelled "compatible with _D&D._"

Instead, you could say that _B5_ is adapted from the rules based in your other game: _Judge Dredd, Slaine,_ and the _Conan._

Come on. What do you say, Matt? Make this your very first standalone OGL/SRD-based product. I swear you will not regret this business decision.


*Ranger REG*


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## Bladesman (Feb 24, 2003)

"After contemplating over the weekend, I have but one wish you should seriously consider:

Drop d20. Go OGL.

I'm serious."

One thing to consider.  I've heard people say that they won't even look at Mutants and Masterminds because it isn't d20.  In fact, I've heard it quite a few times.  Of course, all that does is show their ignorance to what it means to be d20 versus OGL, but the fact that there are people out there that feel that way is something to consider.


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## Dan Stack (Feb 24, 2003)

Though if the product is to be released in May, it's unlikely that anything could be changed, I'll just echo REG - I think this would be a great OGL game.  I love Mutants and Masterminds - it's nice being able to get a complete game, especially given the number of changes being proposed.  And I think Babylon 5 is a perfect setting to do that with.  (Of course, being devil's advocate for myself, you can cram more B5 stuff in if you don't need to explain what a skill, feat, class, etc. is).

Personally, I can't wait to see the game.  May I have it now?  I won't let anyone else know you gave it to me.


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## GiantInThePlayground (Feb 24, 2003)

Dan Stack said:
			
		

> *(Of course, being devil's advocate for myself, you can cram more B5 stuff in if you don't need to explain what a skill, feat, class, etc. is)*




Not to speak for Matt, but I'm pretty sure this is the most important point on making the game d20 and not OGL. There's more new stuff and reference material in the book since they don't have to go over the same old skills, feats, and what a 5-foot-step is for.


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## Mongoose_Matt (Feb 24, 2003)

_Exactly_

We have already had to make some pretty painful decisions as to what to include and what to delay for supplements.  Believe me, having all the core stuff in the PHB is a big plus as far as B5 is concerned. . .


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## Dan Stack (Feb 24, 2003)

So basically I lost an argument with myself. 

Actually, I do see it as a valid point.  I want a book filled to the rim of all sorts of B5-type stuff.  I felt Chameleon Eclectic/Wireframe was a little constrained releasing their game before the end of B5's run - it forced them to limit the official setting.  With B5 having largely run its course, it is very much a grand opportunity for roleplayers.  

I'm hoping this game will help me turn my group into B5 fans.  People in my group have either loved B5 once they tried it or couldn't get over the whole Centauri hair thing...  But there's just so many possibilities - Rangers, Earthforce officers, Narn freedom fighters, IPX archeologists, you name it.


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## woodelf (Feb 24, 2003)

Mongoose_Matt said:
			
		

> *A few more answers;
> 
> 1.  Zathras is mentioned in the main rulebook though, I have to confess, he has not been statted. Do you guys _really_ want his stats?
> *



GOD, NO!



> *
> 3.  The main rulebook actually uses a converted Dragonstar system as a basis for its space combat.  However, you know us - we just can't leave anything alone    So, Starfuries can pivot in space, Vorlons have adaptive armour, the Minbari are _frightening_ and there are all sorts of other bits and pieces that have made this feel very different to the DS you all know and love.  However, I have been considering an advanced space combat game - it is not a priority as, at its core, this is not what a B5 RPG should be about, but it is on the cards. . .
> *




This raises an interesting question in my mind: This *is* intended to be a standalone, or at least pseudo-standalone game book, right?  I'm mildly peeved if it "requires" another book, but only to tell me to roll 4d6 for each stat and spend this many XP to go up a level.  But that's more one of principle--it wouldn't affect me, since i know the missing info, and even have friends who own a copy of the D&D3E PH, if i *really* need to look it up.  It just seems that an RPG with as much potential crossover appeal as B5 really needs to be complete in and of itself, so that the non-gamer B5 fan who picks it up can sit down and play.

Anyway, I'd be very upset if i needed DragonStar for starship combat rules.  (No starship combat rules? No biggie, i'll just use skill rolls with modifiers.  "See XXX for starship combat rules"? Indifferent if XXX is the starship combat supplement for B5, mildly annoyed if it's part of some other supplement for B5 that i otherwise don't want (though, frankly, i can't imagine what that would be), but downright pissed off if it'd involve buying DragonStar, which is only a few steps behind Farscape on my "Most disappointing execution of a really cool premise" RPG list.)  I actually take it from your post that the starship combat rules are in the main book, just derived from those in DragonStar.


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## Mongoose_Matt (Feb 24, 2003)

woodelf said:
			
		

> *
> I actually take it from your post that the starship combat rules are in the main book, just derived from those in DragonStar. *




Correct - the PHB is the only book you 'need' with B5.  We tinker so much with such rules anyway


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## Ranger REG (Feb 24, 2003)

Bladesman said:
			
		

> *
> One thing to consider.  I've heard people say that they won't even look at Mutants and Masterminds because it isn't d20.  In fact, I've heard it quite a few times.  Of course, all that does is show their ignorance to what it means to be d20 versus OGL, but the fact that there are people out there that feel that way is something to consider. *



Perhaps, but I think they may come around if we gamers are willing to promote them. Show them how the games works, like do a Demo Game Day at FLGS. Who knows? You might just convert them to OGL/SRD-based games as well.

As for _B5_ RPG, there is an even bigger audience, not just the _d20_ fan base. I mean what better way to promote an OGL-based game than with a very popular trademark?


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## Ranger REG (Feb 24, 2003)

GiantInThePlayground said:
			
		

> *
> Not to speak for Matt, but I'm pretty sure this is the most important point on making the game d20 and not OGL. There's more new stuff and reference material in the book since they don't have to go over the same old skills, feats, and what a 5-foot-step is for. *



True, but when you are trying to attact _B5_ fans who may be potential gamers, can you honestly tell them that they need TWO books to play _B5_ RPG core rules?

I mean I am looking beyond the _d20_ community (those who own at least one Wizards' core game book so they're all set). There is a bigger market out there, and for that you may have to consider the opinion of those consumers.


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## GiantInThePlayground (Feb 24, 2003)

Well, I would argue that leaving out some d20 details in favor of more B5-specific information actually INCREASES the value for non-d20 players. That "larger audience" consists mostly of people who are fans of the show but have no intention of ever playing the game; they are buying the books as a comprehensive reference on B5. 

However, I am not at all involved in the marketing or conception of this game. The truth is, most people who are not gamers think of all roleplaying games as "D&D" anyway, so I doubt it would surprise anyone that they have to buy a D&D book to roleplay B5. Who knows, people may buy the book for B5, then decide to also try D&D. On a personal level, I think that would be good for our hobby.


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## woodelf (Feb 24, 2003)

GiantInThePlayground said:
			
		

> *That "larger audience" consists mostly of people who are fans of the show but have no intention of ever playing the game; they are buying the books as a comprehensive reference on B5.
> 
> However, I am not at all involved in the marketing or conception of this game. The truth is, most people who are not gamers think of all roleplaying games as "D&D" anyway, so I doubt it would surprise anyone that they have to buy a D&D book to roleplay B5. Who knows, people may buy the book for B5, then decide to also try D&D. On a personal level, I think that would be good for our hobby. *




I fear that far more people, however, wolud buy the book because they are fans of B5, and think in the back of their minds "and, maybe, i'll give this roleplaying thing a try one of these days"--and then not bother when they discover that they need to go buy another book, that has nothing to do with B5, just to dip their toe in the water ( so to speak).


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## Arani Korden (Feb 24, 2003)

woodelf said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I fear that far more people, however, wolud buy the book because they are fans of B5, and think in the back of their minds "and, maybe, i'll give this roleplaying thing a try one of these days"--and then not bother when they discover that they need to go buy another book, that has nothing to do with B5, just to dip their toe in the water ( so to speak). *




Given the degree of cross-pollination within the fandom community, as well as the fact that B5 has been out of the limelight for a while now and wasn't *that* big of a hit at its peak, I suspect that any B5 fans who are likely to become gamers will have already done so by now.  I'm pretty sure thye've been exposed, and if they're not interested, they're not interested.


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## woodelf (Feb 24, 2003)

Mongoose_Matt said:
			
		

> *
> Correct - the PHB is the only book you 'need' with B5.  We tinker so much with such rules anyway   *




So in broad strokes, just how badly do you "need" another book to play B5? just for the "forbidden content"?  Or are the combat rules, say, given only in terms of alterations to the "base" mechanics?  In the latter case, i might just give this one a pass, even if it's well-done.  Just as i did with Farscape.  Well, ok, i don't think Farscape was well-done, and had it been, i might've gotten a copy.  But, even then, my to-buy list for RPGs exceeds my disposable income by roughly 2 orders of magnitude, so even just falling slightly short of "great" can prevent me from buying something. 

Actually, to make a specific point with Farscape, here's why i didn't buy it:
1: no non-rules content that a dedicated fan of the series wouldn't already know.  Sure, it had an episode guide, descriptions of races/cultures, and descriptions of locations.  But every bit of that i already knew, because i've seen every episode of Farscape (in some cases several times), and read all the official extras online.  
2: Then it had a bunch of lackluster crunchy bits. Now, i'm not much of a fan of D20, but i'm perfectly willing to play a good D20 game. Farscape isn't that.  It was a fairly poor use of D20, overall, with just a few gems here and there.
3: Too damn much of the content in the crunchy-bits sections.  If the rules aren't stunning, i can theoretically use the setting material with the rules of my choice.  But it's much more effort to convert from D20 to Fudge or Story Engine than it is to convert from prose to Fudge or Story Engine (or even CORPS, for that matter).  In short, one should be able to read a setting-centric RPG without reading a single word of the mechanics, and still know just as much abou the setting.  Or, put another way, the mechanical representations should be fully redundant with the narrative descriptions, rather than complementary.  And this has nothing to do with my love, or lack thereof, of any particular system.  With my most-favoritest system in the world, i'd still rather be able to read it without referring to the crunchy bits--i'll look at those *after* i've decided i care abou a particular bit, and want to see the mechanical side.  Same complaint i have about most GURPS books (dependent on the mechanical portions to convey the data).

Back to the question of completeness, here's my situation:
I own exactly one D20 book (one of the first Slayers' Guides), and have no real intention of getting more--most just don't appeal to me.  Now, i'm a pretty savvy and experienced RPer, active in online communities and familiar with lots of RPGs.  I know the "forbidden basics" of D&D3E (rolling stats and leveling).  And i've even played in a D&D3E game for a couple years (thus solidifying my decision not to buy any of the books, or run the game).  For that matter, i've had to fill in the gaps in more than a few published RPGs over the years--unintential gaps, i might add.

So, will i be able to sit down with the B5 RPG and create characters and run a game?  Or am i going to have to print out several dozen pages from the D20SRD?  Or will even that be insufficient?


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## thatdarncat (Feb 25, 2003)

Paul and Matt of Mongoose will be joining us for a moderated chat Wednesday March 5th. See this thread in General 

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42153


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## Ranger REG (Feb 25, 2003)

Arani Korden said:
			
		

> *
> I suspect that any B5 fans who are likely to become gamers will have already done so by now.  I'm pretty sure thye've been exposed, and if they're not interested, they're not interested.*



Or perhaps they're waiting for the right vehicle to come along (i.e., the _Babylon 5 Roleplaying Game_). Or perhaps they're the earlier gamers of AoG's version, the standalone core rulebook format.

I agree with *woodelf.* They are more likely to buy it because they're _B5_ fans but will they make the extra trip to the FLGS or spend an extra $30 (the most affordable of Wizards' rulebooks, provided they're willing to use _D&D_) to complete the science fiction RPG?

People prefer everything in one package ... or at least the core rules part, including the character creation and advancement rules.


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## Arani Korden (Feb 25, 2003)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> *
> Or perhaps they're waiting for the right vehicle to come along (i.e., the Babylon 5 Roleplaying Game). Or perhaps they're the earlier gamers of AoG's version, the standalone core rulebook format.
> *




I don't believe it.  Anyway, if I were producing the game, I'd target actual people who definitely buy roleplaying games rather than hypothetical people who might buy roleplaying games.


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## Wyvern (Feb 26, 2003)

GiantInThePlayground said:
			
		

> *Luckily, Matt had already seen my wizards.com thread; safe to say, if you liked the system I described there, you'll like what Mongoose has put together here. There's a lot of parallels, though obviously this book will be much, much deeper than my surface treatment and departs from it significantly in certain areas (which is a good thing).*



That's *very* cool.... 

Wyvern


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## Ranger REG (Feb 26, 2003)

Arani Korden said:
			
		

> *
> I don't believe it.  Anyway, if I were producing the game, I'd target actual people who definitely buy roleplaying games rather than hypothetical people who might buy roleplaying games. *



That's another good argument. So why restrict the appeal of this product to _d20_ gamers (aka owners of Wizarsd' core rulebook), when you can appeal the product to the entire RPG community?

I've heard many gamers who do not play _d20_ that they would like to buy _B5_ but have reservation about buying the _Player's Handbook_ in order to complete the game.

For us owners of a Wizards core rulebook, it is just $30 but for a a gamer outside the _d20_ community, they have to pay at least $60 to have the complete _B5_ core ruleset.

Even among the owners of Wizards's core rulebook, you cannot guarantee that every owner of the _D&D Player's Handbook_ are going to pick up _B5._ In fact, not ALL _PH_ owners trust third-party products, and I use the _PH_ because it is $10 less than the other Wizards' core rulebooks.

You want to get roleplayers to be interested in a _B5_ then tap into the entire RPG community, and give them one core package to play the game, whether they are _d20_ gamers or non-_d20_ gamers.


----------



## Blacksad (Feb 26, 2003)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> *
> That's another good argument. So why restrict the appeal of this product to d20 gamers (aka owners of Wizarsd' core rulebook), when you can appeal the product to the entire RPG community?
> *




Because, appart from MnM, most OGL book departs so much from d20, that d20 gamers don't want to touch them, and considering that actually d20 gamer represent 60% of the market, that it took time to educate them to know what d20 is (through articles in polyhedron, ads in dragon), so it wouldn't be suitable to make it OGL, especially considering that most are puzzled to understand that Godlike or Everquest are d20 (if they know that those game are even remotly d20 related).



> *
> I've heard many gamers who do not play d20 that they would like to buy B5 but have reservation about buying the Player's Handbook in order to complete the game.
> *




oh, and most obvious reason, because the *two* other Babylon 5 RPG, aimed at the larger audience were flop, while most product from a good d20 publisher sell well, meaning that it isn't worthwhile to try to convert fans into gamers, while it is worthwhile to appeal to the d20 crowd.


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## Assenpfeffer (Feb 26, 2003)

Am I missing something here?  I know about the Chameleon Eclectic B5 game (a fiasco if ever there was one.)  I'm aware of the Agents of Gaming tactical games.

What was this _other_ B5 RPG that's being brought up?


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## NeghVar (Feb 26, 2003)

*3.5E Compatible?*

Matt,

I am not sure if this has been asked already, but is the D20 B5RPG going to be 3.5E compatible?

Thanks!


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## Blacksad (Feb 26, 2003)

Assenpfeffer said:
			
		

> *Am I missing something here?  I know about the Chameleon Eclectic B5 game (a fiasco if ever there was one.)  I'm aware of the Agents of Gaming tactical games.
> 
> What was this other B5 RPG that's being brought up? *




IIRC, a stillborn RPG (kind of like the StarGate RPG by WEG)


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## Ranger REG (Feb 26, 2003)

Blacksad said:
			
		

> *
> Because, appart from MnM, most OGL book departs so much from d20, that d20 gamers don't want to touch them, and considering that actually d20 gamer represent 60% of the market, that it took time to educate them to know what d20 is (through articles in polyhedron, ads in dragon), so it wouldn't be suitable to make it OGL, especially considering that most are puzzled to understand that Godlike or Everquest are d20 (if they know that those game are even remotly d20 related).*



So what is it that _MnM_ is deemed a success among OGL-based products that have been published so far?

I mean why not learn from Green Ronin?

BTW, I do question the 60% of the market as being _d20_ gamers, unless you have other data that among the 60% (or whatever true data) what are the percentage of them being _D&D_ gamers who does not trust nor will ever buy third-party resource.




> *oh, and most obvious reason, because the two other Babylon 5 RPG, aimed at the larger audience were flop, while most product from a good d20 publisher sell well, meaning that it isn't worthwhile to try to convert fans into gamers, while it is worthwhile to appeal to the d20 crowd. *



Perhaps because the rules presented in the previous RPGs are complex and/or unappealing?

P.S. Can someone from Sword & Sorcery tell me how the _EverQuest_ RPG product line is doing, despite the small product output? IIRC, their release schedule is scattered, having released the _EQ Player's Handbook_ in the summer while the _EQ Game Master's Guide_ released in the winter.


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## Assenpfeffer (Feb 26, 2003)

Blacksad said:
			
		

> *oh, and most obvious reason, because the two other Babylon 5 RPG, aimed at the larger audience were flop, while most product from a good d20 publisher sell well, meaning that it isn't worthwhile to try to convert fans into gamers, while it is worthwhile to appeal to the d20 crowd. *




Please elaborate.  What was this other, non-Chameleon Eclectic RPG?  Who produced it?  Who designed it?   Why did it "fail"?

What I'm hearing here sounds more like the _rumor_ of a "failed" B5 RPG than an actual project, since nobody seems to be able to actually produce any info at all on it.


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## Sulimo (Feb 26, 2003)

GiantInThePlayground said:
			
		

> *Well, I would argue that leaving out some d20 details in favor of more B5-specific information actually INCREASES the value for non-d20 players. That "larger audience" consists mostly of people who are fans of the show but have no intention of ever playing the game; they are buying the books as a comprehensive reference on B5.  *




It's also more valuable for those gamers who want to use it as the basis for a non-d20 Babylon 5 game.

So, maybe it is a wise decision after all...with Mongoose being able to access even those gamers outside the d20 fold.


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## uv23 (Feb 26, 2003)

Mongoose_Matt said:
			
		

> *Jeffery Sinclair may be an 8th level Officer (correct at time of writing!) but he only has 22 hit points*




Can you go into more detail about this? I'm really curious.


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## Blacksad (Feb 26, 2003)

Considering that I haven't been able to find reference to a second Babylon 5 RPG project (appart from the new d20 one) in any of my mags, I say mea-culpa.



> *
> I mean why not learn from Green Ronin?
> *




the OGL from Green Ronin hasn't scarred the crowd of player, probably because Green Ronin has never produced something worth execution due to lameness.

Here Mongoose can't redo itself (sorry guys, but I've looked at the slayer guide to hobgoblins at my gaming shop).

66% of players are D&D players
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/news...ns&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=35&page=1

Now, you'll need to ask Eric Noah what he has done of the result of all the poll he conducted on his D&D website, I can't found them on Morrus website anymore.

in the meantime
http://www.ogrecave.com/cgi-bin/polltergeist.cgi?pollID=d20market&results=1

But, as I've already said, WotC took pain to educate the crowd ( with the dragon d20 special which sold twice as more on newstand as a typical dragon annual).While OGL product are sometimes barely recognised (Core Commands, Tribe8, Godlike).

and I don't see how bad rules could alter the buying decision of fan of the series, who aren't gamer.

So choosing the largest crowd of gamer is better, and while there is people who only buy D&D, and those who only buy d20, I think that those who do not buy anything D&D or d20 related are in the minority, and that those won't buy a OGL book either.

and aside from the economical issue, the d20 system allow you to refer to large chunk of book (how to deal with player, table rules etc.. in the DMG), Matt already said that it was part of the reason of choosing the d20 route.


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## Assenpfeffer (Feb 27, 2003)

Blacksad said:
			
		

> *Considering that I haven't been able to find reference to a second Babylon 5 RPG project (appart from the new d20 one) in any of my mags, I say mea-culpa. *




Considering that I'm as obsessive a game-dork as you're likely to find, I'd be kinda upset with myself if there _was_ a second RPG and I hadn't heard of it.

I shall make inquiries.


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## Ranger REG (Feb 27, 2003)

Blacksad said:
			
		

> *
> But, as I've already said, WotC took pain to educate the crowd ( with the dragon d20 special which sold twice as more on newstand as a typical dragon annual).While OGL product are sometimes barely recognised (Core Commands, Tribe8, Godlike).*



"Educate"??? More like promoting their trademarks being used by other companies. Then again, that 2001 annual magazine received so many complaints for not being a _D&D_ magazine that there will no longer be anymore annual magazines, in case you haven't noticed its absence last year.

All of the "education" and "promotion" are being done in the _Polyhedron_ magazines. They even promoted OGL-based products like the upcoming _Arcana Unearthed: The Malhavoc Handbooks_ series (recent issue).




> *and I don't see how bad rules could alter the buying decision of fan of the series, who aren't gamer.*



Well, I can't speak from the non-gamer's point of view. All I know is that when I picked up the last defunct _B5_ RPG, I can't make heads or tail about the rules. Instead of wanting to play the game it is presented in, I thought of picking it up for reference material. But I decided it is not worth it.

Besides, how many of you have picked up the defunct _B5_ RPG and enjoyed playing it?




> *So choosing the largest crowd of gamer is better, and while there is people who only buy D&D, and those who only buy d20, I think that those who do not buy anything D&D or d20 related are in the minority, and that those won't buy a OGL book either.*



You'd be surprised. I talked to a friend have nothing but hatred for _D&D_ ... and then he picked up _MnM_ and can't stop praising for it to be better than _D&D._ When I told him most of the content is based on _D&D,_ he didn't believe me. In fact, he's still in denial.




> *and aside from the economical issue, the d20 system allow you to refer to large chunk of book (how to deal with player, table rules etc.. in the DMG), Matt already said that it was part of the reason of choosing the d20 route. *



Wait a minute. Since when _DMG_ is required a _d20_ product?

Ah-ha!!!

That's now 2 books required to play _B5_ RPG. And that's economical?

Personally, if you say that your product is only going to need the _Player's Handbook_ it is best that you reprint stuff that are NOT in the _Player's Handbook_ that are suitable for your game.   

After all, sales record have shown that among the _D&D_ core rulebook, the _PH_ is the best-seller.

All I'm asking is to make it more receptable to the entire RPG community at large ... by providing the _B5_ in one complete package, sans the "this product requires" label.


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## TheAuldGrump (Feb 27, 2003)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> *
> Besides, how many of you have picked up the defunct B5 RPG and enjoyed playing it?*




Well I did. I ran two campaigns, one of them twice, and ran it as late as last year. I actually liked the rules a great deal, in fact it is the only D6 based system I ever liked. If there wasn't a new game coming out for B5 I might ask what you had problems with, but there is so it would be sort of a moot point.

The shp combat system was I will admit rather hard for some to grasp, but I have always liked vector space combat. And the Minbari ships were _deadly!_

I really liked the fact that the avererage shot from the most common weapon would kill you dead. I was also fond of the fact that the average die roll was zero.

At one point in the campaign the PCs, having managed to disgrace themselves in a hostage situation, ended up guarding sheep in the low gravity helium rich environs of Mars.... _'Baaaaaa'_, boing!

The only thing I had against the Chameleon Eclectic version was the lack of updates.

The Auld Grump, who needless to say is looking forward to the new game.....


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## Victim (Feb 27, 2003)

Of course, the SRD is free.

Also, including additional rules for OGL use would increase the page count and thus price of the book.


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## Sulimo (Feb 27, 2003)

TheAuldGrump said:
			
		

> *
> The only thing I had against the Chameleon Eclectic version was the lack of updates. *




What made me angry was that the League of Non-Aligned Worlds book was finished but never saw print...or even electronic distribution.

I bought the CE game ostensibly to use with other systems (at the time it was ICE's Spacemaster)...but never got around to it. Probably because it dried up before much came out for it (only the Earthforce book). I did play a couple of one-shops though, which from memory were pretty fun.

The d20 game will probably get bought for the same purpose...unless the d20 implementation is so amazing it overcomes the D&D hatred one of our group* has.

*well, one of the groups.


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## Ranger REG (Feb 27, 2003)

*THIS JUST IN!!!*

According to GamingReport.com, they received news that the planned _Babylon 5 Core Rulebook_ will be a 302-page hardcover book priced at *$44.95.*

In case you are keeping score, this is the second _d20_ product to break the $40 price limit, the first being another science fiction game, _T20: The Traveller's Handbook_ (also priced at $44.95).

(In case you're into statistics: _T20_ has a page count of 440 pages in a hardcover format.)

Correct me if GamingReport.com and I are wrong.

*Article Source:* http://www.gamingreport.com/article.php?sid=7421&mode=&order=0


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## Darrin Drader (Feb 27, 2003)

*Re: THIS JUST IN!!!*



			
				Ranger REG said:
			
		

> *In case you are keeping score, this is the second d20 product to break the $40 price limit, the first being another science fiction game, T20: The Traveller's Handbook (also priced at $44.95). *




This is about what I was expecting. Why? #1 This has a major name attached to it and Babylon 5 fans will pay the higher price because it's Babylon 5 (I certainly will, *shakes fists defiantly in Mongoose's general direction*). #2 Mongoose has to pay for the exhorbitantly priced license. If the rumors about the price of this license are true, they'll be personally knocking on my door and shaking the nickels out of my pockets in no time.

If given a choice, I would rather pay $35 for it, but realistically, I've been waiting for this so long, I would consider selling off certain body parts just to get my hands on it and then have a few days of uninterrupted reading to absorb it all. I just hope Mongoose doesn't decide to take me up on that offer of body parts so they can sell my kidney's on the black market


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## Blacksad (Feb 27, 2003)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> *
> All I'm asking is to make it more receptable to the entire RPG community at large ... by providing the B5 in one complete package, sans the "this product requires" label. *




Well, I think that you can't make it receptable to the entire RPG community, because there is people who will buy nothing that is not d20, and the opposite category.

I personally would be a bit leery to buy it as a OGL book, if it reprinted large portion of the SRD.

So we'll have to disagree on wether the d20 only crowd is larger than the any product crowd (but given that you could get vampire player who buy only vampire, same with other system, I think that I'm right).


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## Crazy 'Scaper (Feb 27, 2003)

This is fabulous news. This is going to be a definte 'must-buy' for me when it comes out. I do have a few questions for Mongoose Matt.

Will the main book include stat blocks and write-ups for the major characters (circa 2258)? The brief description of Sinclair suggests so, but given that both the Judge Dredd and Slaine books didn't include such write-ups, I was wondering which root Mongoose would be going down?

Will multi-classing be allowed? Will I be able to play a Ranger/Telepath?

Which of the races of the Non-Alligned League will be available to PCs in the main book? Can you play Brakiri, Drazi, Gaim or Pak'ma'ra (not that's I'd necessarily want to play a Pak'ma'ra even though they do make good spies)?

How easy will it be to run crossovers with AEG's Farscape or WotC's Star Wars games?


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## Mongoose_Matt (Feb 27, 2003)

Hi guys,

Some more questions answered;

1.  Yes, all the main characters are featured, with stats, in the main rulebook.  Further more, they will be updated in the 'season' books.

2.  We were going to ban multiclassing early on in the playtesting but finally decided it was very much needed for a game like B5. Ambassador G'Kar, for example, starts 2258 as a Narn Diplomat 2/Officer (ground forces) 3/Soldier 4.  But then, he is arther more multiclassed than most  

3.  The 'core' League races are Brakiri and Drazi - these have been balanced to match the Centauri and everyone else in game terms.  However, if you do not mind a slightly weaker character, then full rules are also given for the Abbai, Markab, Vree, Gaim and Pak'ma'ra.  We even have the racial traits of the Dilgar in there, though we recommend they do not make too many appearences as outcasts in your campaigns    On top of all this, more races will be featured in the 'season' books, plus the League will, at some time, get their own race book.

4.  As for running crossovers, well, they are all d20 books, so any tweaking will be kept to a minimum.  However, you have to be aware that we will never sacrifice any Babylon 5 concepts or rules just to make them more compatible with other games - that is not what we are producing.  This is the Babylon 5 RPG, designed to stand alone and independent from anything other than the core d20 mechanics.  Those same mechanics do provide common ground to integrate other systems, but I am afraid that will be your task to do


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## Darke (Feb 27, 2003)

Dilgar are nice!

 I have a question - will there be supplements for the "past" in the release schedule (in the future)? *like the Dilgar War

*still not may... ahhhhhhhh..

das Darke


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## Mongoose_Matt (Feb 27, 2003)

Likely as not yes, but not in the original line up (you will have to wait until 2004 for those).


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## Sulimo (Feb 27, 2003)

*Re: THIS JUST IN!!!*



			
				Ranger REG said:
			
		

> *According to GamingReport.com, they received news that the planned Babylon 5 Core Rulebook will be a 302-page hardcover book priced at $44.95.*




Ouch! More expensive than Buffy. Who'd a thought the B5 license would be so expensive.


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## Gallowglass (Feb 27, 2003)

As regards the price tag, I wouldn't lay the whole thing to the license. 302 colour pages in a hardback binding will not be cheap to produce and Mongoose have to pitch the pricing such that they make a living wage on the core-book... and so far Mongoose have shown pretty solid business instincts.


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## Ranger REG (Feb 27, 2003)

I doubt it's the license. My theory is that it is more expensive to print/publish books in the UK than in the US.

Again, it's just my theory.


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## Neo (Feb 28, 2003)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> *I doubt it's the license. My theory is that it is more expensive to print/publish books in the UK than in the US.
> 
> Again, it's just my theory. *




Pretyt much EVERYTHING is more expensive here than in the US


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## Neo (Feb 28, 2003)

Bab 5 teee heee

woo hooo

nuff said

(sorry it just escaped me )


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## Kenpo Wolf (Feb 28, 2003)

Despite the hefty price, I will still definitely buy the book. I'm just hoping that other publishers, seeing a higher price on this as well as Traveller 20, won't raise the prices on their new books as well


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## Ranger REG (Feb 28, 2003)

Neo said:
			
		

> *
> Pretyt much EVERYTHING is more expensive here than in the US  *



Converting $44.95 US, how much would be that in UK currency?


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## Crazy 'Scaper (Feb 28, 2003)

More questions for Matt .......

Will entry into the Rangers initially be resistricted to Minbari characters?

Will there be a write-up for the Liandra? Even though it wasn't seen until Legends, ships of that type had been around since the Earth-Minbari War and it's small size would make it an ideal vessel for most PC groups.

Have you included a map of the galaxy and if so, how similar/dissimilar is it to the one that appeared in Chameleon Electric's game?


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## AerosAtar (Feb 28, 2003)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> *
> Converting $44.95 US, how much would be that in UK currency? *




Approximately £30.  At least by my calculations.


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## Ranger REG (Feb 28, 2003)

Ah. Interesting. In the US, most _d20_ sourcebooks are priced at $30 which is probably not expensive to UK customers, I think.


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## Gallowglass (Feb 28, 2003)

Well, the first UK game store I could find a URL for (Leisure Games http://www.leisuregames.co.uk/acatalog/Traveller_d20.html) charges £29.99 for T20, which is about what I paid. And I *did* think it was a lot, but I am a huge Traveller fan, so it was OK. In general, I shy away from spending more than £20 on any one RPG book (Chaosium CoC supplements are an exception, although only BtMoM has topped that recently).

However, the issue is NOT how much it costs to produce a book here, Pelgrane Press' fabuluous The Kain Players Guide for their Dying Earth RPG was printed in Bangkok! The issue is the price per unit to produce the book set againts the number of units Mongoose think they can sell: they have to pitch the price point so they can make a success of the line (pay the bills, satisfy the customers, please the licensor). My guess, extrapolating from Matt's reaons for going d20 (more space for B5 material), is that production values are intended to be high (lots of colour, stills etc), so the book will have to to be a fair whack.

Although I have just realsied that if they are using still shots from the show, then there may well be some fees involved there...


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## Jak Shadow (Mar 3, 2003)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> *Ah. Interesting. In the US, most d20 sourcebooks are priced at $30 which is probably not expensive to UK customers, I think. *




Maybe in theory, in practise, however, we often get straight dollar --> pound conversions.  i.e. something that costs $30 will cost £30, for instance d20 Modern costs £30 over here, dunno how much in the US though, and the original PHB, DMG and MM for 3rd Ed. came out they were £20.  I suspect B5 will be about £30 over here and that they are just converting correctly to $'s for the US


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## Eridanis (Mar 3, 2003)

Jak Shadow said:
			
		

> *Maybe in theory, in practise, however, we often get straight dollar --> pound conversions. *




Oof! Now I see why some folks complain about prices in Europe. That's a 50% markup for no obvious reason. Does that include VAT, though? Then, it might be a bit more reasonable; sales taxes over here in the States tend to be 6 to 9% of cover price, depending on where you live.


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## AerosAtar (Mar 3, 2003)

Eridanis said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Oof! Now I see why some folks complain about prices in Europe. That's a 50% markup for no obvious reason. Does that include VAT, though? Then, it might be a bit more reasonable; sales taxes over here in the States tend to be 6 to 9% of cover price, depending on where you live. *




V.A.T is only 17.5% (in the UK anyway), however, as I understand it books are non-VAT-able items...

I could be wrong here, I sure have been before and I'm no expert, but I do know I never pay import tax on books...


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## Ranger REG (Mar 3, 2003)

Jak Shadow said:
			
		

> *
> Maybe in theory, in practise, however, we often get straight dollar --> pound conversions.  i.e. something that costs $30 will cost £30, for instance d20 Modern costs £30 over here, dunno how much in the US though,*



$39.95 US, so nearly $40. I have the _d20 Modern Core Rulebook._

It's the same price for _Star Wars, Call of Cthulhu,_ and _Wheel of Time_ ... all single core rulebooks.


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## Jak Shadow (Mar 4, 2003)

$40 ~ £25, and I believe that AerosAtar is correct that books are non-VATable (although I might be wrong) in the UK.  WoT, CoC, etc. cost £30 over here (I should know cos I own them all)


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## Darrin Drader (Sep 2, 2008)

motestill said:


> Spam! Spam! Spam! Spam!l




What an odd choice of threads to necromancy for the purpose of spamming. The B5 RPG turned out to be pretty ing good though. Second edition was even better.


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