# Just picked up the Expanded Psionics Handbook



## zen_hydra (Apr 8, 2004)

Looks like they have made some significant improvements. I am still not thrilled with the BAB progression of the Soul Knife though. I am thinking that it needs to be either a normal moderate progression or maybe even a good progression (even if the hit die has to be dropped down from d10 for balance).

The races all look cool so far. I still haven't finished glancing through it, but I would be happy to answer an questions.


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## JPL (Apr 8, 2004)

Just start typing, my friend.  Get a good head start.


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## Jack Daniel (Apr 8, 2004)

What are the BAB and saves of the core classes?  We know the soulknife, but we don't know the wilder, and have the psion and PW changed?


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## cignus_pfaccari (Apr 8, 2004)

zen_hydra said:
			
		

> The races all look cool so far. I still haven't finished glancing through it, but I would be happy to answer an questions.




1)  Review copy, or store?

2)  So, what's new with the psychic warrior?

Thanks!

Brad


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## reiella (Apr 8, 2004)

It looks like some stores are breaking street (intentional or not ), but anycase, some other links here

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=216851

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=216734

Can find a quick cursory item of some of the changes to the Psion in the later thread...

343...  Eeep.


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## Remathilis (Apr 8, 2004)

Summarize the new races, and give me some goods on the Psion and Psychic Warrior...


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## zen_hydra (Apr 8, 2004)

I noticed that 0 lvel powers are gone now.  

Prestige Classes:

-Cerebremancer is a psionic/arcane Mystic Theurge 10 levels of dual arcane and manifester progression

-Elocater is a slippery/movement oriented combat specialist with seven manifester levels

-Fist of Zuoken is a psionic monk prestige class that allows a monk to pick up powers like a psychic warrior ( at tenth level they have 71 power points, 10 powers known, 5th level maximum power level, 2 bonus psionic feats, monk damage and ac bonus and speed continue to increase, two good saves (ref and will), moderate bab progression, d6 hit die

-Illithid Slayer is pretty much the old Slayer PrC

-Metamind is her, I need to look into the details of this one, but is similar to the original.

-Psion Uncarnate is cool, think Jack the Bodiless

-Pyrokineticist is all special abilities, no manifester level progression, but good for a psychic warrior possibly.

-Thrallherd is a master of Domination with an 8 level manifester progression

-Warmind appears to be for Fighters what Fist of Zuoken is for monks.


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## zen_hydra (Apr 8, 2004)

It's a Store Copy (from Alien Worlds, San Antonio, TX)

New Races:

-Dromites: Halfling-like, genderless bug people.  +2 CHA, -2 STR, -2Wis
They have one of four caste affiliations aligned with an energy type.
Energy Ray 1/day, Favored Class=Wilder, +1 level adj.

-Duergar:  psionic dwarves  +2 CON, -4 CHA  expansion and invisibility 1/day, 
favored class=fighter, +1 level adj.

-Elan: formerly human psionic aberrations  -2 CHA  favored class=psion, +0 level adj

-Githyanki:  +2 dex +2con -2 wis,  psi-like abilities gained at levels, 1, 3, 6, and 9,  favored class=fighter, +2 level adj

-Githzerai: +6 dex +2 wis -2 int,  hand full of psi-like abilities, favored class=monk, +2 level adj

-Half Giants: as seen on the web preview

-Maenads:  moody human types that keep their emotion on a short leash
energy ray 1/day, favored class=wilder, +0 level adj

-Thri-kreen: (very nice) psionic mantis warriors 
+2 str +4 dex -2 int +2 wis -4 cha,  +3 natural armor, 4 arms, natural attacks, poison bite 1/day (dc 11+con mod 1d6 dex/parallysis), +30 to jump checks, handfull of psi-like abilities, 2 racial hit dice (d8) plus racial skills and feats, favored class=ranger, +2 level adj (best deal for the money)

-Xephs: Shortish human wannabes from a dark place, 
+2 dex -2 str, darkvision, burst 3/day


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## Falling Icicle (Apr 8, 2004)

How have the powers changed? Do power points work the same way? What are the Psionic base classes?


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## zen_hydra (Apr 8, 2004)

Falling Icicle said:
			
		

> How have the powers changed? Do power points work the same way? What are the Psionic base classes?




0 level powers folded into level 1 powers.

Psionic Classes:

-Psion: bab=+10, fort=+6, ref=+6, will=+12, level 20 power points=343, 36 powers known, d4 hit die.  

-Psychic Warrior: +15 bab,+12 fort, +6 ref, +6 will, level 20 pp=127, 20 powers known, d8 hit die.

-Soul Knife: +15 bab (especially whacked out progression, only attacks until 20th level), +6 fort, +12 ref, +12 will, 20 levels of special abilities, no power manifestation, d10 hit die.

-Wilder: +15 bab, +6 fort, +6 ref, +12 will, level 20 pp=343, powers known 11, d6 hit die.


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## Nightfall (Apr 8, 2004)

Wow. 343 PP for 20th level Psion?! Man that's sweet.


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## Falling Icicle (Apr 8, 2004)

zen_hydra said:
			
		

> -Psion: bab=+10, fort=+6, ref=+6, will=+12, level 20 power points=343, 36 powers known, d4 hit die.




Wow. That's alot of power points! Do things cost the same number of power points they did before? And are there still sub-psionic classes like the Telepath and Nomad?



			
				zen_hydra said:
			
		

> -Soul Knife: +15 bab (especially whacked out progression, only attacks until 20th level)




I don't understand what you are saying.



			
				zen_hydra said:
			
		

> -Wilder: +15 bab, +6 fort, +6 ref, +12 will, level 20 pp=343, powers known 11, d6 hit die.




The Wilder only has *eleven* powers at level 20?! Talk about getting screwed...


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## Creamsteak (Apr 8, 2004)

So, is that weird Soul Knife progression confirmed? Why did they choose to implement that?


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## cignus_pfaccari (Apr 8, 2004)

zen_hydra said:
			
		

> 0 level powers folded into level 1 powers.
> 
> 
> -Psychic Warrior: +15 bab,+12 fort, +6 ref, +6 will, level 20 pp=127, 20 powers known, d8 hit die.




Wow.  Looks like they're still shafted, with the same BAB and saves, less PPs (3e was 129), and one more power known.

Howabout skills/feats?

Brad


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## Nightfall (Apr 8, 2004)

Maybe they can't add.


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## zen_hydra (Apr 8, 2004)

I was wrong about the Psion Uncarnate, it is not like Jack the Bodiless, it is a class that gains increasing incorpereal abilities.

The new creature called the Unbodied is fan service to Jack the Bodiless (the picture is even a disembodied brain) the unbodied are incredibly powerful psionic creatures. They have a +4 level adj.

I have notice that both incarnations of the Psionics Handbook draw significant inspiration from the books of Julian May, and that ain't a bad thing.

The Unbodied alone have me all excited about this book.


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## Piratecat (Apr 8, 2004)

cignus_pfaccari said:
			
		

> Wow.  Looks like they're still shafted, with the same BAB and saves, less PPs (3e was 129), and one more power known.




Err - they weren't shafted before. The general consensus was that psiwarriors were well balanced, and psions were too weak. Adding a power and keeping the power points about the same seems fine. I noticed that some of the feats are more powerful (psionic weapon now does +2d6 damage, not +1d4) as well.  I guess it really comes down to how the powers are.

I can't believe that the wilder gets only 11 powers. Hopefully, they have other nice goodies.

As for the soulknife, they damn well better errata that stupid BAB mistake. I'm amazed that stayed in there.


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## zen_hydra (Apr 8, 2004)

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> So, is that weird Soul Knife progression confirmed? Why did they choose to implement that?





Yes, it is confirmed. Who knows why they did it, but it will be changed in my games.


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## Macbeth (Apr 8, 2004)

Anybody else seen this yet? When is the street date, since these stores are "breaking steet date", according to an earlier poster.


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## Piratecat (Apr 8, 2004)

zen_hydra said:
			
		

> I have notice that both incarnations of the Psionics Handbook draw significant inspiration from the books of Julian May, and that ain't a bad thing.




You betcha! These were the basis of 2e psionics, after all, so it's nice to see them recognized in this way.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Apr 8, 2004)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Maybe they can't add.




From the website, it looks really cool...except for that.

Now, what's even more amusing, as a result of this, is that a 15th-level soulknife can have five attacks...two main hand, three off-hand, with the Two-Weapon Fighting tree.  Somehow, I don't think that was meant to be.

Brad


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## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 8, 2004)

Just called my FLGS and i was told that they had a shipment coming in tomorrow and that it might be in. *crosses fingers*

Oh, and the Elan are freakin awesome!!



			
				Wizard's Boards said:
			
		

> Elan
> -2 Cha
> Aberration (no darkvision)
> +2 bonus PP at first level
> ...


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## TroyXavier (Apr 8, 2004)

The date I saw for this was the 16th.   Hope I can find it when I'm bookshopping this weekend.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Apr 8, 2004)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Err - they weren't shafted before. The general consensus was that psiwarriors were well balanced, and psions were too weak. Adding a power and keeping the power points about the same seems fine. I noticed that some of the feats are more powerful (psionic weapon now does +2d6 damage, not +1d4) as well.  I guess it really comes down to how the powers are.




It's a matter of opinion; I haven't heard that they were balanced, just that they were weak.  At least, that's my group's conventional wisdom.  

Maybe the feats are better and make up for it.  I figure at the least, they should have one better save (like, reflex); they're effectively equivalent to a bard otherwise.

Brad


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## zen_hydra (Apr 8, 2004)

Falling Icicle said:
			
		

> Wow. That's alot of power points! Do things cost the same number of power points they did before? And are there still sub-psionic classes like the Telepath and Nomad?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Point costs appear to be the same.

Soul Knife bab progression:
+0
+1
+2
+3
+3
+4
+5
+6/+1
+6/+1
+7/+2
+8/+3
+9/+4
+9/+4
+10/+5
+11/+6
+12/+7
+12/+7
+13/+8
+14/+9
+15/+10/+5

That is how it appears in the book and the web preview, so it is possibly not an error.

The Wilder appears to be like a Sorcerer but with fair combat abilities. They actually seem to be pretty good.


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## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 8, 2004)

Any word on Concussion and Astral Construct? Are they powers in a chain like 3.0 or a single power that can be heavily augmented? Is astral construct only on the Shaper's list?

Far Hand? Can it be augmented?


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## Pseudonym (Apr 8, 2004)

Can anyone expound on the racial background of the Elan?  So they're abberations, but they look human?  How are they abberations?  What's their racial niche in a campaign world?


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## Kae'Yoss (Apr 8, 2004)

How many of the chains have turned into one power? 
Are there many versatile powers? 

What about learning additional powers beyond those you get by class level? Is it possible? How much does it cost?


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## zen_hydra (Apr 8, 2004)

Pseudonym said:
			
		

> Can anyone expound on the racial background of the Elan?  So they're abberations, but they look human?  How are they abberations?  What's their racial niche in a campaign world?




The Elan are former humans that through a special process become psionically infused creatures that are not alive in the same sense that they were as humans.  Their bodies are powered by psionic energy.  They are effectively immortal, need little sustinence (they can spend a pp to not need food or drink for a day), they no longer sleep (trance like an elf for 4 hours).  They are a special (elite?) race of enhanced humans created by a secret society.


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## zen_hydra (Apr 8, 2004)

RL calls. I'm out for a while.


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## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 8, 2004)

KaeYoss said:
			
		

> What about learning additional powers beyond those you get by class level? Is it possible? How much does it cost?




Only the Erudite from Dragon can do that. 
It looks like the psions know fewer powers, but have a boat load more PPs. 



			
				Wizards Boards said:
			
		

> Concussion is now Concussive Blast (Level2) with augmentations that allow multiple targets or additional dice of damage.
> 
> Astral Construct is now a first level power with augmentations to increase the level of the construct.
> 
> Far Hand is level 1 with augmentations to increase range or weight.


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## Jack Daniel (Apr 8, 2004)

How could the soulknife's BAB *not* be an error?  Unless, that is, they want every soulknife to take a fighter level after level 14, so that they can have a parity with other classes' attacks.


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## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 8, 2004)

I'm sure it's an error. Or, at least, it is as far as I'm concerned. They'll get a standard progression in my campaign.

Hopefully i'll have the book by about 2:00 PM Central time tomorrow. If I can, I'll stop by and answer questions.


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## Creamsteak (Apr 8, 2004)

zen_hydra said:
			
		

> Soul Knife bab progression:
> +0
> +1
> +2
> ...



That has to be an error. I don't care how much they say otherwise, it's a simple truncation of a regular BAB progression, and theres no reason to change such a basic mechanic.


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## Piratecat (Apr 8, 2004)

My beloved local game store, Pandemonium Books & Games in Harvard Square, are apparently getting theirs in tomorrow evening. Looks like I'll have to take a jaunt into town.


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## jgsugden (Apr 8, 2004)

My guess is that the progression must be an error. If it wasn't, there would be a note explaining it somewhere ...


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## SeRiAlExPeRiMeNtS (Apr 9, 2004)

And the Psion sub classes? There is some diference between them besides diferents class skill?


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## reiella (Apr 9, 2004)

zen_hydra said:
			
		

> That is how it appears in the book and the web preview, so it is possibly not an error.
> 
> The Wilder appears to be like a Sorcerer but with fair combat abilities. They actually seem to be pretty good.




Clarification, the Soul Knife BAB progression is in error (in that it misses the 3rd iterative attack for a range of levels 15 to 19, not in the actual BAB rate), and will be in the errata.  R&D already posted as such to the Psi boards @ Wizards.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Apr 9, 2004)

jgsugden said:
			
		

> My guess is that the progression must be an error. If it wasn't, there would be a note explaining it somewhere ...




If you follow the first link given earlier on page 1, you'll find a statement by one of the WoTC folks that the Soulknife BAB issue is a typo.


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## Kae'Yoss (Apr 9, 2004)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> My beloved local game store, Pandemonium Books & Games in Harvard Square, are apparently getting theirs in tomorrow evening. Looks like I'll have to take a jaunt into town.




There goes the trend that we Germans get the books early. Well, it was fun while it lasted (for about 2 books or so). Damn, I want that book!


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## Jarval (Apr 9, 2004)

Hmm, I've been a fan of the 3.5 update up until now, but I'm not keen on the sound of some of these changes.  Removing 0 level powers seems a bit of a weird decision to me (after all, arcane and divine casters still get them, so why not psionic characters?), I'm sorry to see that the disciplines are no longer each based on their own ability score, and Psychic Warriors manifesting off Wisdom is odd to say the least.

Still, there are some cool thing in it.  I really like the Cerebremancer, and the revised Soul Knife works a lot better than the original IMO (barring the "interesting" BAB), and the augmentation of powers should have been in the original version 

Is there a date for when this material will make the SRD?


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## reiella (Apr 9, 2004)

Jarval said:
			
		

> Hmm, I've been a fan of the 3.5 update up until now, but I'm not keen on the sound of some of these changes.  Removing 0 level powers seems a bit of a weird decision to me (after all, arcane and divine casters still get them, so why not psionic characters?), I'm sorry to see that the disciplines are no longer each based on their own ability score, and Psychic Warriors manifesting off Wisdom is odd to say the least.
> 
> Still, there are some cool thing in it.  I really like the Cerebremancer, and the revised Soul Knife works a lot better than the original IMO (barring the "interesting" BAB), and the augmentation of powers should have been in the original version
> 
> Is there a date for when this material will make the SRD?




I believe talents were removed because for the most part, they were other powers 'downsized', and it was deemed more appropiate to just use a single power and have augmentations handle the scaling issues.

Also it is a small item of distinction between Psionics and Magic, while minor, it's interesting.

That said, I don't have it and am working off the Sneak Preview and other leaks so far .


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## Kae'Yoss (Apr 9, 2004)

Jarval said:
			
		

> Removing 0 level powers seems a bit of a weird decision to me (after all, arcane and divine casters still get them, so why not psionic characters?)



Because Psi isn't magic. Lots of the 0-level powers were useless, anyway, and I think that the other ones will be part of the chain-turnded-powers or augmentable


> I'm sorry to see that the disciplines are no longer each based on their own ability score,



This is actually good. MAD had your choice of powers dwindle in higher levels, unless you managed to get 19+ in every ability score.


> and Psychic Warriors manifesting off Wisdom is odd to say the least.



Actually, it's not that bad (and is in line with the mental key ability score rule). I'd prefer the psion to have wis in fact (but mainly because we're going to start a Gestalt campaign, and I want to combine monk and psion - well, monk/psywar works just as well with the bonus feats;-))


> (barring the "interesting" BAB)



Which is just a typo.


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## Acid_crash (Apr 9, 2004)

I'm glad this book is finally coming out....now I can run my psionic only campaign and get rid of magic.


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Apr 9, 2004)

> I'm sorry to see that the disciplines are no longer each based on their own ability score




I'm happy to see that - WotC listened to it's fans. Great news. Now there'll be some kind of balance to the system. You won't need 6 19s any more (underpowered) and you won't be able to use shapechanging, _mind switch_ or _psychofeedback_ to flat out break the save DC system in such a manner that the archmage 3.0 and incantatrix 3.0 look like wimps (overpowered).

Getting rid of MAD made it possible to actually _analyze_ the psion's power.

As for the psychic warrior using Wisdom, he's using _mental_ powers with a _mental_ stat.


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## palatineknight (Apr 9, 2004)

(Psi)SeveredHead said:
			
		

> I'm happy to see that - WotC listened to it's fans. Great news. Now there'll be some kind of balance to the system. You won't need 6 19s any more (underpowered) and you won't be able to use shapechanging, _mind switch_ or _psychofeedback_ to flat out break the save DC system in such a manner that the archmage 3.0 and incantatrix 3.0 look like wimps (overpowered).
> 
> Getting rid of MAD made it possible to actually _analyze_ the psion's power.
> 
> As for the psychic warrior using Wisdom, he's using _mental_ powers with a _mental_ stat.




I agree...I can't wait to grab my copy and explore the psionic realms.


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## Falling Icicle (Apr 9, 2004)

Acid_crash said:
			
		

> I'm glad this book is finally coming out....now I can run my psionic only campaign and get rid of magic.




Boo!

 :\


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## I'm A Banana (Apr 9, 2004)

Still totally implementing the rule where the discipline the psion focuses in dictates his ability score.......Int based psionics........blech!


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## Henry (Apr 9, 2004)

Darn it, I get paid tomorrow. So much for that vacation fund!


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## RangerWickett (Apr 9, 2004)

I'm interested in the feats mentioned that provide resistance to psionic abilities, but are not themselves psionic.  I have a prominent NPC in my game with a _huge_ aversion to psionics, and I think those sorts of feats would be great for her.


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## Swack-Iron (Apr 9, 2004)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> My beloved local game store, Pandemonium Books & Games in Harvard Square, are apparently getting theirs in tomorrow evening. Looks like I'll have to take a jaunt into town.




So PC, Bandito has already hinted to me that your campaign may never convert over to 3.5. Which version of the psionics rules are you going to use?


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## Dark Psion (Apr 9, 2004)

0 Level Powers: Most have been boosted up to 1st level and can be augmented further. Far Hand can be augmented for range and weight.

Fewer Powers: Yes Psions get fewer powers because most of the power chains have been combined into one power. There is only one Astral Construct power at 1st level. By using Augmentations, you can manifest bigger Astral Constructs. Precognition is a 1st level power too, combining the Inkling-Precog chain.

Name changes: A bunch of psionics has had it's name changed. Savants are now Kineticists, Biocurrent has been rolled into Energy Current. Concussion is now Concusive Blast. Read carefully.

MIA: A few things do seem to be lost. Acid is not listed as an available energy type. Sever the Tie is gone as are all the "Improved" versions of powers as this is now handled by Augmentations.


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## X-Marks! (Apr 9, 2004)

*Got Time?*

Does anyone with a copy of the new book have the time to post the Table of Contents?  That'd really help those of us that aren't close enough to a decent gaming store decide if it's worth ordering on Amazon or the like... .  Much appreciation, if you do.  ALX


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## Fiendish Dire Weasel (Apr 9, 2004)

> My beloved local game store, Pandemonium Books & Games in Harvard Square, are apparently getting theirs in tomorrow evening. Looks like I'll have to take a jaunt into town.




Hey, I've been there! Very cool place 

Damn shame my local place probably won't get it until next Friday, too bad I already preordered or I may have had to go wandering around Hahvahd Square looking for it again


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## Cergorach (Apr 9, 2004)

Sounds interesting, i can't wait to get the book!

As someone else already asked, has anyone heard anything about when the v.3.5 Psionic rules will be added to the SRD? Or is this book, just like Unearthed Arcana released under the OGL?


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## Piratecat (Apr 9, 2004)

Swack-Iron said:
			
		

> So PC, Bandito has already hinted to me that your campaign may never convert over to 3.5. Which version of the psionics rules are you going to use?




Nah, we switched over to 3.5 last game. We'll probably use the new psionics rules as soon as we read them.


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## MerricB (Apr 9, 2004)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Nah, we switched over to 3.5 last game. We'll probably use the new psionics rules as soon as we read them.




You're going to take that long? We were using 3E D&D rules (over 2E) before we read them!

Alright, I'm exaggerating somewhat.  (What I mean is that in the days before 3E was released, I was running a hybrid campaign based on what Eric Noah was telling me. Oh, and using some of the 3.5E rules based on the threads on this board, later on! )

Cheers!


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## Count Arioch the 28t (Apr 9, 2004)

I have an odd question and a serious question:

Odd question first:

Why does the Elan get a +0 ECL and the Dromites get +1?  to be honest, it seems like it should be the other way around? <shrug>

And now the question I actually expect some sort of answer to :

IS the 3.5 Meta mind really exaclt like the 3.0 metamind?  where you take a PrC that supposedly gives you lots of power points, but actually gives you FEWER PP's and craptacular powers?  "Cause if they didn't change it to caster progression or something, I'm a gonna be PO'd.


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## Creamsteak (Apr 9, 2004)

Cergorach said:
			
		

> Sounds interesting, i can't wait to get the book!
> 
> As someone else already asked, has anyone heard anything about when the v.3.5 Psionic rules will be added to the SRD? Or is this book, just like Unearthed Arcana released under the OGL?



They are putting it into the SRD.


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## zen_hydra (Apr 9, 2004)

After reading more of it...I think that the Expanded Psionics Handbook is a 500% improvement over it's last incarnation.  With the way powers scale and their more general nature, I can see them easily capable of replacing magic as the default preternatural power set.  The various energy powers are flexible in the type of damage that they do, and they range from bursts, to rays, to touch attacks, and more.  I see the Kinetisist as being a potentially better blaster-type than a Sorcerer.  

The most unbalancing thing that I have seen is the new creature called the Unbodied.  This creature is stated out for use as a PC race at the end of it's entry with only a +4 level adjustment.  It has a metric F*** ton of innate powers, stat increases, 4 racial hit dice (+feats and skills), and it's considered a 4th level Psion (Telepath) for stacking with class levels.  Unbalanced or not, who wouldn't want to play Saint Jack the Bodiless?


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## Azazyll (Apr 9, 2004)

Dark Psion said:
			
		

> Sever the Tie is gone as are all the "Improved" versions of powers as this is now handled by Augmentations.





AAAAAAGH!  sever the tie is gone?  it was one of the neatest powers, certainly with an awesome picture.  it gave an undead hunter feel possibility to the psion.  It had great background if anyone remembers it from The Illithiad.  Well, I'm peeved.  I had hoped they'd give it a bunch of augmentations and instead they toss it.

Other than that pretty cool.  I, too, wish the soulknife fit the rogue mold better, but tinkering could probably change that.


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## Psion (Apr 9, 2004)

zen_hydra said:
			
		

> The most unbalancing thing that I have seen is the new creature called the Unbodied.  This creature is stated out for use as a PC race at the end of it's entry with only a +4 level adjustment.  It has a metric F*** ton of innate powers, stat increases, 4 racial hit dice (+feats and skills), and it's considered a 4th level Psion (Telepath) for stacking with class levels.  Unbalanced or not, who wouldn't want to play Saint Jack the Bodiless?




You do understand that level adjustment is not ECL right? You add racial hit dice to get ECL. You'd have to have an 8th level group to be one of these.


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## Jarval (Apr 9, 2004)

KaeYoss said:
			
		

> Because Psi isn't magic. Lots of the 0-level powers were useless, anyway, and I think that the other ones will be part of the chain-turnded-powers or augmentable.



I'm one of those people who takes almost as much time choosing which cantrips my spellcasting characters will prepare as I do picking out the rest of their spell list, so I'm probably a bit biased on this.  That said, making things like Far Hand augmentable makes a hell of a lot of sense, and I'm sure I can live without Float, Trinket or Catfall.




			
				(Psi)SeveredHead said:
			
		

> I'm happy to see that - WotC listened to it's fans. Great news. Now there'll be some kind of balance to the system. You won't need 6 19s any more (underpowered) and you won't be able to use shapechanging, _mind switch_ or _psychofeedback_ to flat out break the save DC system in such a manner that the archmage 3.0 and incantatrix 3.0 look like wimps (overpowered).
> 
> Getting rid of MAD made it possible to actually _analyze_ the psion's power.
> 
> As for the psychic warrior using Wisdom, he's using _mental_ powers with a _mental_ stat.



I'm not saying that the MAD problem caused by 'each discipline has its own stat' was a good thing, but I did like the difference it promoted between psions of differing disciplines.  It made a lot of sense to me that a Telepath would have a higher Charisma than Intelligence, or a Seer would focus on Wisdom.  Plus I thought the tying of powers to physical stats was one of the truly differentiating features between psionics and magic.  A psionic character was using their entire body, not just their brain, to manifest.

But as you say, it does give a bit more choice to the psion.  You're no longer restricted to a choice of two or three powers at higher levels, and that has to be a good thing.  I'll just have to tinker around with a few house rules to get things running the way I want them...


----------



## Greybar (Apr 9, 2004)

*Epic Psionics*

Just since I've been thinking epic-power recently (even though my players won't be there for years) since I'm looking at a campaign-motivator type force being psi-based:

Does the Expanded Psi-etc change the Epic Psi rules out there.  They look really tacked-on to the Epic Spells from what I can see in the SRD.

Alternatively, has anyone used the Epic Psionics as they stand?

thanks,
john


----------



## zen_hydra (Apr 9, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> You do understand that level adjustment is not ECL right? You add racial hit dice to get ECL. You'd have to have an 8th level group to be one of these.




OK, I lost my mind for a minute.  That makes thing seem almost sane.  Even so I think that the Unbodied would actually be pretty descent at +8 ECL.  They can use manifest Telekinetic Force at will, along with their other powers.


----------



## Prof.Dogg (Apr 9, 2004)

*Anything missing?*

Is there anything in the old book that didn't make it into the new book (critters, magic items, etc)?  I'm thinking about hocking the old book but I don't like giving up that one paragraph that has some stat block that I wish I had held onto.


----------



## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 9, 2004)

A few questions:

1. Can Concusive Blast hurt inanimate objects?

2. Does Control Air still exist and does it have a cap? In 3.0, an epic level psion could level a city with an F6 tornado for the cost of 3 power points. 

3. How does Far Hand augment?


----------



## Videssian (Apr 9, 2004)

Azazyll said:
			
		

> AAAAAAGH!  sever the tie is gone?  it was one of the neatest powers, certainly with an awesome picture.  it gave an undead hunter feel possibility to the psion.  It had great background if anyone remembers it from The Illithiad.  Well, I'm peeved.  I had hoped they'd give it a bunch of augmentations and instead they toss it.




Well, I don't know if it means anything, but on the ExpPsiH illustrations page on the wizards website (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ag/20040403a), look at the image for "Energy Ball".. notice something?  It's the same illo used for "Sever the Tie" in the 3.0 PsiH.. so just maybe, it's been incorporated into that power!   (can anyone confirm/rebut this?)

(and yeah, its one of my Savant's favorite powers too!)

ttyl,
Videssian


----------



## Psion (Apr 9, 2004)

zen_hydra said:
			
		

> OK, I lost my mind for a minute.  That makes thing seem almost sane.  Even so I think that the Unbodied would actually be pretty descent at +8 ECL.  They can use manifest Telekinetic Force at will, along with their other powers.




Unfortunately, some third party publishers have confused the issue, by offering LA numbers that are clearly meant to be ECL numbers.


----------



## Hardhead (Apr 9, 2004)

Did they change the level that psions can Dominate?


----------



## DM_Matt (Apr 9, 2004)

But don't Unbodied's get 4 virtual levels of Telepath with their 4 racial hit dice which themselves have bigger hp dice than psions themselves?  Thus, effectively its an LA 4 creature that you have to start out with 4 hp-boosted psion levels.


----------



## zen_hydra (Apr 9, 2004)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> A few questions:
> 
> 1. Can Concusive Blast hurt inanimate objects?
> 
> ...





1. yes (it specifically states this, and one can choose lethal or nonlethal damage)

2. It's still in there, with a maximum wind speed of 60 mph.

3. 2 pp per extra 5' range and 1 pp for every 2 lb lift capacity over 5lb.


----------



## edventure (Apr 9, 2004)

Videssian said:
			
		

> Well, I don't know if it means anything, but on the ExpPsiH illustrations page on the wizards website (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ag/20040403a), look at the image for "Energy Ball".. notice something?  It's the same illo used for "Sever the Tie" in the 3.0 PsiH.. so just maybe, it's been incorporated into that power!   (can anyone confirm/rebut this?)
> 
> (and yeah, its one of my Savant's favorite powers too!)
> 
> ...




Nope, it's not incorporated.  Energy Ball, if I remember correctly, is just a big ol' kaboom of different types. (force, sound, etc...)

The pics for Burning Ray and Steadfast Gaze are something else as well.  I did find that steadfast gaze has been absorbed into another power.


----------



## zen_hydra (Apr 9, 2004)

The much dreaded Coup de Grace weapon enhancement now functions as a one round paralysis (dc 27 Will save) on every critical hit the weapon makes.  So I guess it purpose is now to leave an opponenent open to a Coup de Grace attack.


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Apr 9, 2004)

zen_hydra said:
			
		

> The much dreaded Coup de Grace weapon enhancement now functions as a one round paralysis (dc 27 Will save) on every critical hit the weapon makes.  So I guess it purpose is now to leave an opponenent open to a Coup de Grace attack.




Hm... CdG on a crit is how I changed Vorpal in my game.


----------



## qstor (Apr 9, 2004)

Any new cool monsters? Is there a lot on Mind flayers?

Mike


----------



## alaric (Apr 9, 2004)

Just picked it up [Legends in Cupertino, CA].  First thing that hit me that I haven't seen anyone say is that Psions no longer get powers per level, the just get a number of powers and a max level (Was this in a preview that I missed?).  With a real quick glance at the powers it seems they really did roll alot of chains down to single powers.  Example is Concussive Blast (3E Concussion).  It's 2nd Level with the augments 1) +2 PP for 1d6 additional damage and 2) +2 PP per additional target within 15 feet.  That basically collapses 7 or so powers down into 1.  So less powers but no redudancy, so Psions that used to be very focuses got alot more flexible, but if you spread your powers out alot you might be more constrained.  Also, I don't think the Wilders 11 powers at 20th level is as big of a deal give how flexible each of the powers is.

It looks like the individual Discipline powers list is quite small, between 14 and 20 powers (Telepath is the 20, most others are 14-16), and at least one at every level.  General Psion/Wilder powers by level:

1:  42
2:  29
3:  22
4:  17
5:  12
6:  12
7:  12
8:  8
9:  7


----------



## alaric (Apr 9, 2004)

The Expand Power Feat allows you to choose any power that is at least 1 level less than your max known and add it to your known powers list (Big Sign pointing downward that reads "Hey Wilder, over here"), even if that power is on another disciplines list or even from another class list!

Psions now get bonus feats at 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th.

Psions no longer get Psicrystals by default, they must take the Psicrystal Affinity feat (So i guess that's why they get the bonus 1st level feat).


----------



## Psion (Apr 9, 2004)

Here's a question nobody's asked or offered up a solution to:

How does _Psionic Combat_ work now? Does it invalidate or (conversely) play right into Mindscapes?


----------



## alaric (Apr 9, 2004)

*New Action Types*

[Page 59]

They have added new action types:

Swift - Basically a free action but you only get one per round.  Quickened powers are Swift Actions, as are some normal powers (Burst is the example).  Powers that are manifest as Swift Actions are not subject to attacks of oppurtunity.

Immediate - Free action that you can use even when it's not your turn!  Using an immediate action counts as your swift action for the turn.  The Prowess power has a manifest time of 1 immediate action (the power lets you take an AoO on someone even if you have already taken you alloted number of AoO's for the round).


----------



## alaric (Apr 9, 2004)

Psionic combat seems to be completely gone, the combat modes are now powers, some (Ego Whip) seem to work pretty much like the combat mode did, others (Id Insuiation) seem to be just random powers that have the combat mode name attached to them.


----------



## Psion (Apr 9, 2004)

alaric said:
			
		

> The Expand Power Feat allows you to choose any power that is at least 1 level less than your max known and add it to your known powers list (Big Sign pointing downward that reads "Hey Wilder, over here"), even if that power is on another disciplines list or even from another class list!




Yay!

No more whining about psions who can create there own demiplane on the astral but can't travel there!


----------



## Psion (Apr 9, 2004)

alaric said:
			
		

> Psionic combat seems to be completely gone, the combat modes are now powers, some (Ego Whip) seem to work pretty much like the combat mode did, others (Id Insuiation) seem to be just random powers that have the combat mode name attached to them.




Cool... so it _DOES_ play right into the Mindscapes system.

Excellent.


----------



## alaric (Apr 9, 2004)

Count Arioch the 28t said:
			
		

> I have an odd question and a serious question:
> 
> Odd question first:
> 
> ...





The Dromites are Monsterous Humanoids (so no charm person, etc), they have +3 natural armor, and get to pick one energy type to get a 5 resistance in.  They get +1 PP at first level, and uses the energy ray power 1/day for free.  They get the scent and blind-fighting abilities.  That seems okay for +1, and from what i can tell the Elan does seem pretty good for 0 level adjustment race.

The meta mind now gets 1/2 level adjustment (+1 at even levels), at odd levels the get Free Manifesting (3 free 1st at 1st, 3 free 2nds at 3rd, up to 1 free 5th at 9th), Cognizance psicrystal (psicrystal now stores power points), and at 10th level they get Font of Power, which means for 1 minute a day they light up like a christmas tree and don't have to expend power points for any of their powers (this generally doesn't fit into the craptacular power list).


----------



## Anabstercorian (Apr 9, 2004)

alaric said:
			
		

> ...at 10th level they get Font of Power, which means for 1 minute a day they light up like a christmas tree and don't have to expend power points for any of their powers (this generally doesn't fit into the craptacular power list).




Holy !  That's absolutely awesome!  WOW!

Quick, tell me a 7th level power that you'd want to use with this!


----------



## alaric (Apr 9, 2004)

Hardhead said:
			
		

> Did they change the level that psions can Dominate?




Still 4th level, but augments were added to effect non-humanoids, and multiple additional targets.


----------



## alaric (Apr 9, 2004)

Videssian said:
			
		

> Well, I don't know if it means anything, but on the ExpPsiH illustrations page on the wizards website (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ag/20040403a), look at the image for "Energy Ball".. notice something?  It's the same illo used for "Sever the Tie" in the 3.0 PsiH.. so just maybe, it's been incorporated into that power!   (can anyone confirm/rebut this?)
> 
> (and yeah, its one of my Savant's favorite powers too!)
> 
> ...




Energy Ball is 4rd level Kineticist power, does 7d6 you choose the energy type, and the energy type adds an effect (Cold uses fort save instead of reflex, fire deals +1 damage per die).  There are energy bolt, energy burst, and energy cone powers that are very similar.  Sever the Tie picture labeled as energy ball in the book as well.


----------



## alaric (Apr 9, 2004)

qstor said:
			
		

> Any new cool monsters? Is there a lot on Mind flayers?
> 
> Mike




There seem to be quite a few new monsters, along with all the old ones, and a phrenic template to add psionics to normal creatures (Phrenic Manticore is the example).  The mind flayer discription is presented as an alteration to the Monster manual mind flayer (labeld Mind Flayer, Psionic), they get stat'd as 9th level psions (telepath) and a list of common powers known, and they can use Mind Blast at will.


----------



## Psion (Apr 9, 2004)

alaric said:
			
		

> The mind flayer discription is presented as an alteration to the Monster manual mind flayer (labeld Mind Flayer, Psionic),




Psionic Mind Flayer is redundant if you ask me. (Plus, let us NOT go back to 2e canon where there were two versions...   )



> they get stat'd as 9th level psions (telepath) and a list of common powers known, and they can use Mind Blast at will.




Cool change though. Makes them MUCH more playable. I was considering writing them up that way myself. Great that they are saving me the trouble.

How about Githyanki and Githzerai? Any updates their to atone for the recent oxymorons of non-psionic Gith?


----------



## Acid_crash (Apr 9, 2004)

With the current changes of psionics how easy would it be to convert the older prestige classes and internet powers, like from The Minds Eye at WotC website, into 3.5 versions?  

I intend to run a psionics only campaign, and any advice on easy conversions would be helpful to not just myself, but probably a few others as well.  I'm not very good at converting things like this, so I am asking all of you for what you would do, if you chose to, to do this.


----------



## edventure (Apr 9, 2004)

alaric said:
			
		

> ...they get stat'd as 9th level psions (telepath) and a list of common powers known, and they can use Mind Blast at will.




Can you find a description of Mind Blast in the EPH?  I don't see it in the powers list or in the Mind Flayer description.  Are we supposed to rely on the MM for that now?


----------



## alaric (Apr 9, 2004)

edventure said:
			
		

> Can you find a description of Mind Blast in the EPH?  I don't see it in the powers list or in the Mind Flayer description.  Are we supposed to rely on the MM for that now?




That puzzled me as well and I came to the same conclusion.  Apparently Mind Blast is just for Mind Flayers now.


----------



## alaric (Apr 9, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> How about Githyanki and Githzerai? Any updates their to atone for the recent oxymorons of non-psionic Gith?




They are both present, but I'm at work without my book, so that's all I can say for now.


----------



## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 9, 2004)

Just got back with my copy. One thing I've noticed that a few people seem confused about. The feat, Wild Talent, DOES NOT allow the character to manifest a power. You get 2 pp and are considered a psionic creature. You can take psionic feats and such, but it doesn't give you the ability to manifest a power.


----------



## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 9, 2004)

*Psion Discipline Powers*

*Egoist*
1 - Thicken Skin 
2 - Animal Affintity, Chameleon, Empathic Transfer
3 - Ectoplasmic Form, Hustle
4 - Metamorphosis, Psychic Vampire
5 - Psionic Revivify, Psychofeedback, Restore Extremity
6 - Psionic Restoration
7 - Fission
8 - Fusion
9 - Greater Metamorphosis

*Kineticist*
1 - Control Object
2 - Control Air, Energy Missle
3 - Energy Cone
4 - Control Body, Energy Ball, Inertial Barrier
5 - Energy Current, Fiery Discoporation
6 - Dispelling Buffer, Null Psionics Field
7 - Reddopsi
8 - Psionic Telekinetic Sphere
9 - Tornado Blast

*Nomad*
1 - Burst, Detect Teleportation
2 - Dimension Swap, Psionic Levitate
3 - Astral Caravan
4 - Dimensional Anchor, Psionic Dismissal, Psionic Fly
5 - Baleful Teleport, Psionic Teleport, Teleport Trigger
6 - Psionic Banishment
7 - Dream Travel, Psionic Ethereal Jaunt
8 - Mass Time Hop
9 - Psionic Teleportation Circle, Time Regression

*Seer*
1 - Destiny Dissonance, Precognition
2 - Clairvoyant Sense, Object Reading, Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions,
3 - Escape Detection, Fate Link,
4 - Anchored Navigation, Remote Viewing,
5 - Clairtangent Hand, Second Chance
6 - Greater Pecognition
7 - Fate of One
8 - Hypercognition
9 - Metafaculty, Reality Revision

*Shaper*
1 - Astral Construct, Psionic Minor Creation
2 - Psionic Repair Damage, 
3 - Greater Concealing Amorpha, Ectoplasmic Cocoon
4 - Psionic Fabricate, Quintessence
5 - Hail of Crystals,
6 - Crystallize, Greater Psionic Fabricate
7 - Mass Ectoplasmic Cocoon
8 - Astral Seed
9 - Genesis, True Creation

*Telepath*
1 - Psionic Charm, Mindlink
2 - Aversion, Brain Lock, Read Thoughts, Psionic Suggestion
3 - Crisis of Breath, Hostile Empathic Transfer, False sensory Input
4 - Psionic Dominate, Thieving Mindlink, Psionic Modify Memory, Schism
5 - Metaconcert, Mind Probe,
6 - Mind Switch
7 - Crisis of Life
8 - Mind Seed
9 - True Mind Switch, Psychic Chirurgery

whew...


----------



## Psion (Apr 9, 2004)

alaric said:
			
		

> Immediate - Free action that you can use even when it's not your turn!  Using an immediate action counts as your swift action for the turn.  The Prowess power has a manifest time of 1 immediate action (the power lets you take an AoO on someone even if you have already taken you alloted number of AoO's for the round).




Once again, the Second World Sourcebook shows it is ahead of its time...


----------



## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 9, 2004)

Maybe I just didn't see it. It's probably already been mentioned, but I'll mention it again anyway.

None of the psionic classes have a predetermined rate of power aquisition. (Not counting the Erudite in Dragon.) What I eman by this, is that, for example, a 5th level psion knows 11 powers. He could know 11 1st level powers or 6 1st level powers, 4 2nd level powers, and 1 3rd level power.

It's up to you to choose which level of powers you take. But of course, you can't know a power you can't manifest.

Pretty cool. It'll be a matter of self-control to not always take the highest level power you can manifest.


----------



## Psion (Apr 9, 2004)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> Just got back with my copy. One thing I've noticed that a few people seem confused about. The feat, Wild Talent, DOES NOT allow the character to manifest a power. You get 2 pp and are considered a psionic creature. You can take psionic feats and such, but it doesn't give you the ability to manifest a power.




From a thread on the WotC boards psionics forum, there is a sidebar in there somewhere that talks about a feat for a more "high psionic" game that gives you a first level power. I am having trouble pulling up the boards so can't cite specifics, but it's in there.


----------



## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 9, 2004)

Ah-ha. Page 67, the Hidden Talent feat.

Thanks. Now to decide whether or not I'll allow it...

There are a great many of the handy little sidebars. Very nice.


----------



## Davelozzi (Apr 10, 2004)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> *Psion Discipline Powers*
> [snip]




Is there any way for a psion to choose a power that appears in another discipline list?  One of the PCs in my game is a telepath with a history of using _Astral Construct_ am I'm curious to hear whether or not we can bring him up to date without breaking the new rules.


----------



## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 10, 2004)

Davelozzi said:
			
		

> Is there any way for a psion to choose a power that appears in another discipline list?  One of the PCs in my game is a telepath with a history of using _Astral Construct_ am I'm curious to hear whether or not we can bring him up to date without breaking the new rules.




Yep, there is a feat, Expanded Knowledge, that allows you to pick one pwer from any list.

Regarding Astral Construct, one of the guys over on the Wizard's board, I forget who, had the idea of a Wilder who manifested Astral Constructs. The constructs where incarnations of the Widler's nightmares set loose upon the world.


----------



## tmaaas (Apr 10, 2004)

Davelozzi said:
			
		

> Is there any way for a psion to choose a power that appears in another discipline list?  One of the PCs in my game is a telepath with a history of using _Astral Construct_ am I'm curious to hear whether or not we can bring him up to date without breaking the new rules.




Third post from the top of the previous page:



			
				alaric said:
			
		

> The Expand Power Feat allows you to choose any power that is at least 1 level less than your max known and add it to your known powers list (Big Sign pointing downward that reads "Hey Wilder, over here"), even if that power is on another disciplines list or even from another class list!
> 
> Psions now get bonus feats at 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th.
> 
> Psions no longer get Psicrystals by default, they must take the Psicrystal Affinity feat (So i guess that's why they get the bonus 1st level feat).




Looks like I was a little too slow...


----------



## Psion (Apr 10, 2004)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> None of the psionic classes have a predetermined rate of power aquisition. (Not counting the Erudite in Dragon.) What I eman by this, is that, for example, a 5th level psion knows 11 powers. He could know 11 1st level powers or 6 1st level powers, 4 2nd level powers, and 1 3rd level power.
> 
> It's up to you to choose which level of powers you take. But of course, you can't know a power you can't manifest.




I thought part of the point was that many lower level powers _scale_, so you aren't really gaining much from "holding out". For example, one astral construct is all the astral construct you need for your career.


----------



## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 10, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> I thought part of the point was that many lower level powers _scale_, so you aren't really gaining much from "holding out". For example, one astral construct is all the astral construct you need for your career.




Yep, that's true as well. DC don't scale though, so in most cases, if two powers basicly do the same thing, you are still probably better off with the higher level one.

EDIT - Scratch that, _some_ powers' DCs do scale with augmentation. Depends on the power.


----------



## MerricB (Apr 10, 2004)

alaric said:
			
		

> [Page 59]
> 
> They have added new action types:
> 
> ...




Oh my...

Swift Actions were introduced in the _Miniatures Handbook_ - I'm glad they kept the terminology (it's very useful indeed). The expansion to "Immediate Actions" is logical and very good.

I wonder if, in 4E, _feather fall_ will be Casting Time: 1 Immediate action?

Cheers!


----------



## tmaaas (Apr 10, 2004)

MerricB said:
			
		

> Oh my...
> 
> Swift Actions were introduced in the _Miniatures Handbook_ - I'm glad they kept the terminology (it's very useful indeed). The expansion to "Immediate Actions" is logical and very good.
> 
> ...




I'd like to see the Power Word: .....  spells use either a Swift or Immediate action. But this is getting off topic.


----------



## Spatula (Apr 10, 2004)

Damn you all... I had no intention of buying this book... I don't even play 3.5!  But this does sounds much, much, better than 3.0 psi rules.  Better than even the patched-up 3.0 psi rules - and it's all in one book to boot!.


----------



## Thaumaturge (Apr 10, 2004)

MerricB said:
			
		

> Swift Actions were introduced in the _Miniatures Handbook_ - I'm glad they kept the terminology (it's very useful indeed). The expansion to "Immediate Actions" is logical and very good.
> 
> I wonder if, in 4E, _feather fall_ will be Casting Time: 1 Immediate action?




I just hope these 2 action types make it into the SRD/RSRD so other companies can use them now, not whenever 4e roles arround.

Thaumaturge.


----------



## Vrylakos (Apr 10, 2004)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> Maybe I just didn't see it. It's probably already been mentioned, but I'll mention it again anyway.
> 
> None of the psionic classes have a predetermined rate of power aquisition. (Not counting the Erudite in Dragon.) What I eman by this, is that, for example, a 5th level psion knows 11 powers. He could know 11 1st level powers or 6 1st level powers, 4 2nd level powers, and 1 3rd level power.
> 
> ...



Wow, this was exactly like the Domain Sorcerer System that I and other worked on about 2 years ago is House Rules. Hm, interesting.

Vrylakos


----------



## Wikidogre (Apr 10, 2004)

So how are the little BLUE bastards now   

Did they nerf them or keep them the same and update them to 3.5
What is the LA

Spanks


----------



## MerricB (Apr 10, 2004)

Thaumaturge said:
			
		

> I just hope these 2 action types make it into the SRD/RSRD so other companies can use them now, not whenever 4e roles arround.




Given that the Expanded Psionics rules will be in the SRD within a month (or so), I think we have nothing to fear! 

Cheers!


----------



## alaric (Apr 10, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> How about Githyanki and Githzerai? Any updates their to atone for the recent oxymorons of non-psionic Gith?




They now have Githyanki, Psionic and Githzerai, Psionic, the writeup is a little confusing, but it seems you are suppose to build them as normal npc races, and regardless of class they get some basic psionic powers that increase with level.  Both have 1st level warrior's as examples.


----------



## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 10, 2004)

Wikidogre said:
			
		

> So how are the little BLUE bastards now
> 
> Did they nerf them or keep them the same and update them to 3.5
> What is the LA
> ...




Blues have a "Bues as Characters" section.
Blue PCs get:
-2 Str, +2 Int, -2 Cha
Small Size
Speed: 30 
Darkvision 60ft
Naturally Psionic: 1 bonus PP at first level
Racial Skills: +4 Move Silenty and Ride. (Ride? Maybe they meant Hide? :\ )
CR: 1

The Blue listed is statted as a 1st level psion.


----------



## AdmundfortGeographer (Apr 10, 2004)

Can anyone post the Fist of Zuoken fluff text?  I'm not much interested in the crunchy bits, as a Greyhawk-phile I'm interested in the level of faithfulness that was kept towards Zuoken.

For those in the know and can discern it, could you post other examples of usage of Greyhawkiana in the book?

Thanks!


Regards,
Eric Anondson


----------



## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 10, 2004)

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> Can anyone post the Fist of Zuoken fluff text?  I'm not much interested in the crunchy bits, as a Greyhawk-phile I'm interested in the level of faithfulness that was kept towards Zuoken.
> 
> For those in the know and can discern it, could you post other examples of usage of Greyhawkiana in the book?
> 
> ...




Not a lot of info here. As you probably already know, they are psionic monks. They develope their abilities and take it upon themselves to protect other psionic creatures.


----------



## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 10, 2004)

Wow! Cool new power:

Decerebrate [Psychoportation]
You selectivly teleport away part of the victem's brain stem. He becomes a vegetable for 1d4 days before he dies. He can only be saved with Greater Restoration or a similar effect 7th level or higher.


----------



## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 10, 2004)

Another cool new power:

Death Urge [Telepathy]
You plant a hidden death urge into the subject's subconsious. On the subject's next turn, it looks for the quickest method to end it's life and attempts to do so.

BWAHAHA! Telepaths get a whole new toybox of uber-evilness.


----------



## reiella (Apr 10, 2004)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> Another cool new power:
> 
> Death Urge [Telepathy]
> You plant a hidden death urge into the subject's subconsious. On the subject's next turn, it looks for the quickest method to end it's life and attempts to do so.
> ...




Erm, that was in 3.0  [as Fatal Attraction].


----------



## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 10, 2004)

reiella said:
			
		

> Erm, that was in 3.0  [as Fatal Attraction].




Big change though, now it effects the target instantly and he tries to kill himself in the next round. In 3.0, it took 1d4 days before it took effect.

Essentially, it has become a combat power instead of a...uh...assassination power?


----------



## Kid Charlemagne (Apr 10, 2004)

Personally, I'm rather fond of the entry for _Deja Vu_...


----------



## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 10, 2004)

Personally, I'm rather fond of the entry for _Deja Vu_...


----------



## Kid Charlemagne (Apr 10, 2004)




----------



## reiella (Apr 10, 2004)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> Big change though, now it effects the target instantly and he tries to kill himself in the next round. In 3.0, it took 1d4 days before it took effect.
> 
> Essentially, it has become a combat power instead of a...uh...assassination power?




Ah okie, me got confused slightly between your post of that power and the Decerebrate, and some numbers got jumbled in my head .

Good deal though


----------



## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 10, 2004)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

>




 Yea, its a cool power too. There are a bunch of hidden gems in there. I'm going to have to sit down and go through them. There are a lot of powers I dig just for the "cool factor".


----------



## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 10, 2004)

Gotta go. Will post more later.


----------



## John Q. Mayhem (Apr 10, 2004)

I just want to know who this "Jack the Bodiless" guy is. Is he from the writings of the author mentioned earlier?


----------



## Shard O'Glase (Apr 10, 2004)

I'm interested to see what schism does I hope it isn't like it was in 3e where it basically was a haste effect without the ac bonus, if they had to didtch the old haste the old schism should go as well. Also some of these psionic X powers seem wierd,  why not just call it fabricate why psionic fabricate, and why it there a greater psionic fabrocate why can't augmentations handle the difference, and god I hope they made true creation not suck cause wow it sucked in 3e.  

Planar traval I didn't see on the nomad list(though etheral travel is) I wonder if its a general power?  I kind of looked after someone made the genesis can't travel to it whiner comment.  Cause I guess I was one of those whiners since I said that was a freakin brain dead idea.


----------



## Shard O'Glase (Apr 10, 2004)

John Q. Mayhem said:
			
		

> I just want to know who this "Jack the Bodiless" guy is. Is he from the writings of the author mentioned earlier?





yes.  Julian may wrote a book series called the plyocine exile?  in its background a human evolved to just a brain of psionic energy named jack was mentioned a lot.  Jack the bodiless.  Eventually a jack the bodiless book/series came out.  The plyocine books were good enough for me for me to read them twice despite the use of the lame plot device characters (felicia or something and Jack's brother) But the psionic poweres were cool the aliens were cool, and some of the characters were really cool.


----------



## Fyrestryke (Apr 10, 2004)

Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> I'm interested to see what schism does I hope it isn't like it was in 3e where it basically was a haste effect without the ac bonus, if they had to didtch the old haste the old schism should go as well. Also some of these psionic X powers seem wierd,  why not just call it fabricate why psionic fabricate, and why it there a greater psionic fabrocate why can't augmentations handle the difference, and god I hope they made true creation not suck cause wow it sucked in 3e.




Schism allows a 2nd "you" to only do purely mental powers.  The powers it manifests are as if you were 6 levels lower than your current manifester level.  Seems only Telepaths can have it without a feat.  First action is available the round AFTER schism is manifested.  Make 2 saves versus charm/compulsion if both fail, schism ends.  Otherwise, 1 round/level. Second mind is immune to haste, the character is not.




> Planar traval I didn't see on the nomad list(though etheral travel is) I wonder if its a general power?  I kind of looked after someone made the genesis can't travel to it whiner comment.  Cause I guess I was one of those whiners since I said that was a freakin brain dead idea.




Plane Shift, Psionic = Psion/wilder 5, 9pp.  You have to *REFERENCE* the PHB for the description of the spell.


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## Henry (Apr 10, 2004)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> Big change though, now it effects the target instantly and he tries to kill himself in the next round. In 3.0, it took 1d4 days before it took effect.




I always found that one kind of spurious, myself.

_"Ialdabode, what did you do to the Gray Render?"
"HA! I just gave him a death urge! In about 2 days he'll throw himself from the nearest convenient cliff."
"Um, that's great, but... what about right nowwwwIIIEE! AHH! AHH! HE'S EATING MY FACE! HELP! HELPEPIPLPLGPLGPLGRGRG!"_


----------



## Spatula (Apr 10, 2004)

Well, I picked the book up and have just gotten through the feats...  I don't care for psions manifesting off of Int but that's old news and easy enough to change.  One thing that leaped out at me is that psionic focus is a HUGE limiting factor on the psionic characters.  It's a full round action to acquire the focus (DC 20 Concentration check) and most psionic feats require you to expend your focus in order to gain their benefit, so you generally only get to use one psionic feat once per fight.  Also old news.

What I didn't realize is that all the Metapsionic feats require you to expend your focus!!! (AND still pay extra power points!)  *Power Penetration* requires the expenditure of your focus!  Psionic Endowment (the new name for the psi version of Spell Focus) requires the psionic focus to go bye-bye in order to get the save DC boost!  What a huge and rather crippling change.

With the metapsionic feats, it looks like it might be in response to psions, as spontaneous "casters", not needing extra time to meta-up their powers.  On the flip side, most of the metapsionic feats have a reduced power point cost increase (by 2 pts).  I don't see much rationale yet for limiting Power Penetration and Psionic Endowment, though.

There is a feat that reduces the time to get your psionic focus back to a move action, which looks like it'll be more or less mandatory for psions.


----------



## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 10, 2004)

Look at page 91. See the entry for Deja Vu?
Now look on page 92. See the entry for Deja Vu?

Isn't Mr. Cordell the prankster.


----------



## Spatula (Apr 10, 2004)

Oh yeah, and Stand Still is no longer a psionic feat - anyone with a Str 13+ can take it and use it.  Although it no longer does any damage.  It's a very bizarre feat now, and I'm not sure how you'd describe it's use in game.  "You attempt to run past the fighter, but he swings at you with his sword... hit!  Make a DC 21 Reflex save.  No, you don't take any damage.  You failed your save, okay, you can't move any more this round.  No, you're still standing.  Because he hit you with his _sword_, duh!"  Mind Over Body and Rapid Metabolism are also now general feats.

What's odd is the bunch of non-psionic, non-psionic related feats included the book for no discernable reason.  Like Cloak Dance.  General feat.  Prereqs are Hide 10 ranks, Perform (dance) 2 ranks.  Allows you to give yourself partial or total concealment for a round.  WTF?  As a psionic feat that requires you to expend your focus, I could understand, but not as a general feat.

The other non-psionic general feats are Deadly Precision (reroll 1's on sneak attack dice), Greater Manyshot (shoot manyshot arrows at different targets with different attack rolls), Openminded (gain 5 skill pts), Reckless Offense (-4 AC, +2 atk), and Sidestep Charge (+4 AC vs charge atk).

There's also a bunch of general anti-psionics feats that you can take only if you're not a psionic character yourself.  Antipsionic Magic (your spells get a bonus vs PR, psi characters have a harder time dispelling your spells), Chaotic Mind (insight bonuses granted by psionics can't be used against you), Closed Mind (+2 on saves vs psi powers), Force of Will (can use your Will save to resist a psi power that normally calls for a Fort or Refl save), Hostile Mind (psions take damage when they use telepathy powers on you), Mental Resistance (take less damage/ability drain from non-energy psi powers), and Psionic Hole (psi opponent loses focus if he hits you, has to spend extra PP to use powers against you).  Unfortunately, there's no anti-magic equivalents for psionic characters.


----------



## Nightfall (Apr 10, 2004)

Spat,

There is one in Relics and Rituals 2. Power wise anyway...


----------



## jester47 (Apr 10, 2004)

TOC?

Monster list?  Is there a provision for using the EPH Monsters in a game where you just use magic to represent everything supernatural?

Powers List?  Are there any rules for converting spells to powers and vice versa?

I dislike the point based psionics system and I find many of the regular spells work great as psionic abilities.  If the monsters and powers port well, I might get this book...

Mind Blast needs to be an ability...

Aaron.


----------



## Spatula (Apr 10, 2004)

jester47 said:
			
		

> Monster list?



Aboleth
Astral Construct
Blue
Brain Mole
Caller in Darkness
Cerebrilith
Couatl
Crysmal
Dromite
Duergar
Elan
Folugub
Githyanki
Githzerai
Gray Glutton
Half-Giant
Intellect Devourer
Maenad
Mind-Flayer
Neothelid
Phrenic Creature
Pthisic
Psicrystal
Psion-Killer
Puppeteer
Puppeterr, Flesh Harrower
Temporal Filcher
Thought Eater
Thought Slayer
Thri-Kreen
Udoroot
Xeph
Yuan-Ti

Mostly revisions of 3.0 PsiHB monsters or regular monsters.







> Is there a provision for using the EPH Monsters in a game where you just use magic to represent everything supernatural?



The default assumption is still that psionics and magic are transparent.  I.e., psionics is magic.







> Powers List?  Are there any rules for converting spells to powers and vice versa?



The powers are designed with the power point system in mind this time around, so it's not a trivial task.


----------



## Spatula (Apr 10, 2004)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Spat,
> 
> There is one in Relics and Rituals 2. Power wise anyway...



One what?


----------



## Nightfall (Apr 10, 2004)

A power that disrupts magical spellcasting. Page 220, Psychic disruption. It causes the caster to make a Concentration check (15+ the manifestier Cha+the spell or power's level)


----------



## Spatula (Apr 10, 2004)

Mind blast is now Psionic Blast, Psion/Wilder 3.  Stuns targets in cone for 1 round, spend 2 PP to increase stun duration by 1 round.


----------



## Spatula (Apr 10, 2004)

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> Can anyone post the Fist of Zuoken fluff text?  I'm not much interested in the crunchy bits, as a Greyhawk-phile I'm interested in the level of faithfulness that was kept towards Zuoken.
> 
> For those in the know and can discern it, could you post other examples of usage of Greyhawkiana in the book?



There's not really any fluff in the PrC text, just that they're psionic monks.  There is a Zuoken writeup in the back of the book, though.  Neutral demigod, portfolio is monks & mental powers, domains are knowledge, mind, strength, and war.  "Once a human martial artist, Zuoken attained such mental and physical perfection that he ascended into godhood several centuries ago."

There's also a writeup of Ilsensine, the mind flayer diety.  And a note about the slightly revamped diety writeups, which will apparently also be seen in Complete Divine.  The descriptions now include *Herald* (what the diety usually sends to the prime when it needs to intervene in mortal affairs), and *Allies* (the types of creatures the diety sends when its clerics cast a planar ally spell).  Zuoken's herald is a thought slayer (basically a big thought eater), and his allies are rasts, couatls, and huge elementals.  Ilsensine also uses thought slayers as heralds, and uses succubi, cerebriliths, and mariliths as allies.

There's also the mind domain and some new spells.


----------



## Nightfall (Apr 10, 2004)

Spat,

Cool, Heralds. Mmm wonder where that came from eh?  But very nice to see what complete Divine can do for my SL games along with PG: Clerics and Druids, PG: Paladins and Monks and of course PG: Rangers and Rogues.


----------



## RangerWickett (Apr 10, 2004)

Spatula said:
			
		

> There's also a bunch of general anti-psionics feats that you can take only if you're not a psionic character yourself.  Antipsionic Magic (your spells get a bonus vs PR, psi characters have a harder time dispelling your spells), Chaotic Mind (insight bonuses granted by psionics can't be used against you), Closed Mind (+2 on saves vs psi powers), Force of Will (can use your Will save to resist a psi power that normally calls for a Fort or Refl save), Hostile Mind (psions take damage when they use telepathy powers on you), Mental Resistance (take less damage/ability drain from non-energy psi powers), and Psionic Hole (psi opponent loses focus if he hits you, has to spend extra PP to use powers against you).  Unfortunately, there's no anti-magic equivalents for psionic characters.




Can someone provide a full write-up of these feats, please?  Particularly Hostile Mind and Mental Resistance.

I've got an NPC who hates being mind-controlled, and she doesn't have enough feat slots to get them all.  But she wants them all.


----------



## Spatula (Apr 10, 2004)

Hostile Mind: prereq is Cha 15.  Whenever you are subject to ANY telepathy power (beneficial or not), the manifester must make a Will save (DC 10 +1/2 your lvl +Cha mod) or take 2d6 damage.  Only applies to psionics, never to magic, as an exception to the psi-magic transparency rules.

Mental Resistance: prereq is base Will save +2.  You take 3 pts less damage from any psionic attack that doesn't deal energy damage (_mind thrust_ is the example given).  Also take 3 less pts of ability damage from any psi power that causes such damage.  Only applies to psionics, yadda yadda.


----------



## Felon (Apr 10, 2004)

Spatula said:
			
		

> Mind blast is now Psionic Blast, Psion/Wilder 3.  Stuns targets in cone for 1 round, spend 2 PP to increase stun duration by 1 round.




But I guess illithids just use the MM version of mind blast?

If so, that remains unfortunate. A single attack that can sideline half the party for 3d4 rounds makes for a lot of grumbling, kibitzing, and snoring at the game table. IME, 3d4 rounds is a long enough duration that measuring it in rounds is really a bit of a tease. 

But hell, making'em 9th-level psions is just all-out coolness. That's the way they shoulda done it to begin with.


----------



## RangerWickett (Apr 10, 2004)

Spatula said:
			
		

> Hostile Mind: prereq is Cha 15.  Whenever you are subject to ANY telepathy power (beneficial or not), the manifester must make a Will save (DC 10 +1/2 your lvl +Cha mod) or take 2d6 damage.  Only applies to psionics, never to magic, as an exception to the psi-magic transparency rules.
> 
> Mental Resistance: prereq is base Will save +2.  You take 3 pts less damage from any psionic attack that doesn't deal energy damage (_mind thrust_ is the example given).  Also take 3 less pts of ability damage from any psi power that causes such damage.  Only applies to psionics, yadda yadda.




Thanks a ton.  Hostile Mind makes more sense for her at low-level.  She'll cross-class as a sorcerer to grab Mental Resistance later.  *grin*


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## Emirikol (Apr 10, 2004)

Spatula said:
			
		

> There's not really any fluff in the PrC text, just that they're psionic monks.  There is a Zuoken writeup in the back of the book, though.  Neutral demigod, portfolio is monks & mental powers, domains are knowledge, mind, strength, and war.  "Once a human martial artist, Zuoken attained such mental and physical perfection that he ascended into godhood several centuries ago."






FYI, Zuoken is a Greyhawk deity.  You can find full details by following up on those leads 

Jay H
Jay's Complete Greyhawk Godlist


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## Particle_Man (Apr 10, 2004)

Note on Astral Construct Power:

Unlike Summoned Monsters, Astral Constructs can bypass things like protection from evil that are designed to hedge out summoned creatures.

Unlike Summon Monster spells, Astral Construct cannot be used to summon multiple creatures at once, no matter how you augment it.

Can't wait to try my Goblin Shaper!


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## Wycen (Apr 10, 2004)

Spatula said:
			
		

> There's also a writeup of Ilsensine, the mind flayer diety.  Ilsensine also uses thought slayers as heralds, and uses succubi, cerebriliths, and mariliths as allies.




WTF?  Ilsensine.  Mind Flayer god.  Lawful Evil.  Why is it using demons, chaotic evil things as allies?  Why not erinyes or aboleths or psionic octopi?


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## LoneWolf23 (Apr 10, 2004)

I guess the most important question I have is:  Can I use these new rules to simulate characters like Xavier, Luke Skywalker, Jean Grey or any other Psionic characters from works of fiction?

Because let's face it, that's pretty much all the attraction of Psionics right there...


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## James McMurray (Apr 10, 2004)

Did they fix the feeder weaponry, and if so, how?


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## Morrow (Apr 10, 2004)

Felon said:
			
		

> But I guess illithids just use the MM version of mind blast?
> 
> If so, that remains unfortunate. A single attack that can sideline half the party for 3d4 rounds makes for a lot of grumbling, kibitzing, and snoring at the game table. IME, 3d4 rounds is a long enough duration that measuring it in rounds is really a bit of a tease.
> 
> But hell, making'em 9th-level psions is just all-out coolness. That's the way they shoulda done it to begin with.




If the psionic mind flayer can manifest powers as a 9th level psion, how does that effect their ECL?

Morrow


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## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 10, 2004)

LoneWolf23 said:
			
		

> I guess the most important question I have is:  Can I use these new rules to simulate characters like Xavier, Luke Skywalker, Jean Grey or any other Psionic characters from works of fiction?




Xavier - psion (Telepath)
Luke Skywalker - psion (Keneticist)/psychic warrior
Jean Grey - Wilder w/ telepathic and TK powers


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## Sir Elton (Apr 10, 2004)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> Xavier - psion (Telepath)
> Luke Skywalker - psion (Keneticist)/psychic warrior
> Jean Grey - Wilder w/ telepathic and TK powers




OR . . .

White Queen - psion (telepath)

Phoenix: Wilder w/ telepathic, Tk, and 10 levels of Pyrokineticist.


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## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 10, 2004)

James McMurray said:
			
		

> Did they fix the feeder weaponry, and if so, how?




Bodyfeeder and Mindfeeder are both +3 enchantments now. Otherwise they are the same. It does mention that the temporary hit points and PP gained do not stack.

Soulfeeder has been renamed Soulbreaker and is the same.


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## Sir Elton (Apr 10, 2004)

Creamsteak said:
			
		

> They are putting it into the SRD.




They better.  I recently checked the Wizards site, they haven't added them yet.  But I'm sure they're working on them.


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## LoneWolf23 (Apr 10, 2004)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> Xavier - psion (Telepath)
> Luke Skywalker - psion (Keneticist)/psychic warrior
> Jean Grey - Wilder w/ telepathic and TK powers




Ok, now can I have some details?  For exemple, can I simulate the wide range of Xavier's telepathic abilities (namely, a guy who can read minds, probe memories,  dominate others and even alter memories) using the rules in the Expanded Psionics Handbook without too much trouble?


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## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 10, 2004)

LoneWolf23 said:
			
		

> Ok, now can I have some details?  For exemple, can I simulate the wide range of Xavier's telepathic abilities (namely, a guy who can read minds, probe memories,  dominate others and even alter memories) using the rules in the Expanded Psionics Handbook without too much trouble?




Without any trouble at all. In case you missed it, here are the powers on the Telepath list:

Telepath
1 - Psionic Charm, Mindlink
2 - Aversion, Brain Lock, Read Thoughts, Psionic Suggestion
3 - Crisis of Breath, Hostile Empathic Transfer, False sensory Input
4 - Psionic Dominate, Thieving Mindlink, Psionic Modify Memory, Schism
5 - Metaconcert, Mind Probe,
6 - Mind Switch
7 - Crisis of Life
8 - Mind Seed
9 - True Mind Switch, Psychic Chirurgery

That's not counting about 20 or so other telepathic powers under the generic psion list that a character could have access to. So yes, you could very easily use those abilities.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Apr 10, 2004)

Spatula said:
			
		

> There's not really any fluff in the PrC text, just that they're psionic monks.  There is a Zuoken writeup in the back of the book, though.  Neutral demigod, portfolio is monks & mental powers, domains are knowledge, mind, strength, and war.  "Once a human martial artist, Zuoken attained such mental and physical perfection that he ascended into godhood several centuries ago."




Thanks Spatula!

It sounds like they did a pretty good job with Zuoken, without giving an overdose of Greyhawk specifics on him.  Apart from the inclusion of the new _Mind_ domain, his domains are exactly as given in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, and Living Greyhawk Journal #3.  Although his portolio in the LGG and LGJ#3 are given as "Physical and Mental Mastery".  The "elemental" affinity for allies is understandable as Zuoken, when mortal, was from a human culture that resembled a medieval Middle East and the ties to Jinn-kind associated with it.  It's nice to see that WotC didn't ditch their "base" setting when looking for "new" dieties to include with a sourcebook. 

Are there any other deities besides Ilsensine and Zuoken? For instance, Zuoken is actually in the service of Xan Yae, a N lesser goddess of Twilight, Shadows, Stealth, and Mental Power.


Regards,
Eric Anondson


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## FireLance (Apr 10, 2004)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> Blues have a "Bues as Characters" section.
> Blue PCs get:
> -Racial Skills: +4 Move Silenty and Ride. (Ride? Maybe they meant Hide? :\ )



Ride.  Blues are psionic goblins, and goblins get +4 to Ride because they're closely associated with and often mounted on worgs.  It's in the MM.


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## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 10, 2004)

FireLance said:
			
		

> Ride.  Blues are psionic goblins, and goblins get +4 to Ride because they're closely associated with and often mounted on worgs.  It's in the MM.




Oh. Ok.

Come to thik of it, I could certainly see a blue sitting atop a phrenic warg.


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## LoneWolf23 (Apr 10, 2004)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> Without any trouble at all. In case you missed it, here are the powers on the Telepath list:
> 
> Telepath
> 1 - Psionic Charm, Mindlink
> ...




Well, I'm sold.  Just bought the ExpPsiHB, and I'm reading back and forth through it.   ...Already I like their Psionic Mind Flayer much better then the standard one.


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## Felon (Apr 10, 2004)

Morrow said:
			
		

> If the psionic mind flayer can manifest powers as a 9th level psion, how does that effect their ECL?




Good question. I'm just referring to what I've read previously in this thread, so I can't tell you. 

If it's not addressed, then that's a problem. Mind flayers have an extremely hefty +7 level adjustment, largely due to having a bunch of powers that function at will. If they have to conserve power points, then they need to come down a tad.


----------



## Wikidogre (Apr 10, 2004)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> Wow! Cool new power:
> 
> Decerebrate [Psychoportation]
> You selectivly teleport away part of the victem's brain stem. He becomes a vegetable for 1d4 days before he dies. He can only be saved with Greater Restoration or a similar effect 7th level or higher.



 That has to be the Coolest thing i have seen so far!

ChaChing!
I am in like sin!


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## Piratecat (Apr 10, 2004)

Note that I have created a rules thread for any errata you note. We might as well summarize it in one place when it comes to light.

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=83520


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## SkidAce (Apr 10, 2004)

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> Thanks Spatula!
> 
> It sounds like they did a pretty good job with Zuoken, without giving an overdose of Greyhawk specifics on him.
> 
> ...





Ah, the travails of simultaneous invention.  I made Zuoken monks psionic way back with the 2nd Ed. psionic handbook...now my new players will think I'm a copycat.  Won't be the first time...so many good ideas just come to people naturally.

...sorry about the hijack


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## Staffan (Apr 10, 2004)

Cergorach said:
			
		

> As someone else already asked, has anyone heard anything about when the v.3.5 Psionic rules will be added to the SRD? Or is this book, just like Unearthed Arcana released under the OGL?



Andy Smith says they'll add it within about a month after the release. In other words, "soon."


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## alaric (Apr 10, 2004)

Felon said:
			
		

> Good question. I'm just referring to what I've read previously in this thread, so I can't tell you.
> 
> If it's not addressed, then that's a problem. Mind flayers have an extremely hefty +7 level adjustment, largely due to having a bunch of powers that function at will. If they have to conserve power points, then they need to come down a tad.




Doesn't list a level adjustment, guess your on your own there.


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## alaric (Apr 10, 2004)

Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> I'm interested to see what schism does I hope it isn't like it was in 3e where it basically was a haste effect without the ac bonus, if they had to didtch the old haste the old schism should go as well.




Schism is 4th level now, and you still get a second free, but at -6 manifestor levels.


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## Azazyll (Apr 10, 2004)

Two little rants:

Scarred Lands did NOT come up with the idea of heralds for deities, the bible did that.  Scarred Lands presents a lot of neat new idea, and WotC occasssionally copies new ideas.  The herald of a deity does not fall under either of those umbrellas.

Emulating psionic comic book characters and Star Wars is certainly not the only reason to play with psionics.  D&D has its own traditions of psionics, particualrly in Dark Sun, which have little to do with either genre.  Which is why we have a Star Wars RPG (That and WotC like to cash in on it) with its own system of using "psionics".  Personally, I like the flavor of "crystals and cthulhu" that psionics in general seem to follow in D&D over either of the aforesaid genres.


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## alaric (Apr 10, 2004)

"Bow before my overpowering mental prowess, I will dominate your mind, and control your actions.....at least for the next 12 to 18 seconds...."

Look what they did to Dominate, Psionic.  The 3.0 power was 1 day/level, the arcane version is 1 day/level, but for the telepath, supposedly the ultimate mental masters it's .... Concentration?  Okay, so maybe they thought 1 day/level was too good for a 4th level power, so maybe it's an augmentation, maybe there is a greater version of the power, maybe there is an altogether new power for long term mental domination.....[Insert sound of flipping pages here].  Nope, as far as I can tell that's the end all be all of mental powers right there.  Thrall is gone, nothing on the telepath's list deals with dominating people, and I don't see any powers above 4th that deal with domination.  Needless to say my domination based telepath isn't particularly happy about the change, sure they can kill you with a thought, and rip the memories from your mind, but no thralls for you.  Even take a look at the thrallherd prestige class, all it does is make the completely weakened domination powers cheaper.  I accept things like schism getting changed because haste was changed in 3.5, but why are wizards now the mental masters?


----------



## DragonLancer (Apr 10, 2004)

With these new rules, hoe easy/difficult will it be to convert 3.0 psionic modules such as If Thoughts Could Kill over? Also, what about non-WotC psionic prestige classes?


----------



## WizWrm (Apr 10, 2004)

Bruce Cordell is doing the ITCK conversion himself, for free. See the interview here on the WotC site (scroll to the bottom).


----------



## DragonLancer (Apr 10, 2004)

Thanx for that. I missed that bit when I read the article earlier.


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## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 11, 2004)

alaric said:
			
		

> "Bow before my overpowering mental prowess, I will dominate your mind, and control your actions.....at least for the next 12 to 18 seconds...."




Meh. I'd just change the arcane version to Concentration. 

I feel your pain though, I really miss True Telekinesis. Broken though it may be, it was still really cool.   
Oh well, I can get by with a metapsionic'ed Telekinetic Sphere.


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## Ashrem Bayle (Apr 11, 2004)

So I'm working on my new character. He is a 3rd level Elan Kineticist. Here is his psionics info.

*Power Points:* 19 [11 + 4 + 2(Elan) + 2(Psionic Talent)] 
*Powers:*
Control Object
Energy Ray*
Far Hand*
Force Screen*
Matter Agitation
Energy Missile*
Energy Push*
*Can be augmented

*Feats:*
Overchannel
Talented
Psionic Talent

Ouch! This guy is going to be the premiere "blaster" in the party.


----------



## Zack2216 (Apr 11, 2004)

What did they do with Animal Affinity? Is it just a general increase in a stat, or an enhancement bonus? Is it augmentable? 

Also, what did they do to the bite and claw powers? Did they turn them all into one augmentable power?


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## Shard O'Glase (Apr 11, 2004)

alaric said:
			
		

> "Bow before my overpowering mental prowess, I will dominate your mind, and control your actions.....at least for the next 12 to 18 seconds...."
> 
> Look what they did to Dominate, Psionic.  The 3.0 power was 1 day/level, the arcane version is 1 day/level, but for the telepath, supposedly the ultimate mental masters it's .... Concentration?





Wow that's a world of dumb.  They made a similarly moronic screw up in 3.0 with monster dominate lasting rounds for the psion and days for the wiz/sor. At least they errataed that relatively quickly, so hopefully they shall remove their heads from their butts and give the mental domination class some powers that at least equal those of a generalist mage at mental domination.


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## Ssyleia (Apr 11, 2004)

After reading the entire threat, I didn't see someone put up something on the psionic yuan-ti.

As yuan-ti are my favorite villains, I'd wonder whether someone who has the books could please sum up for me what's changed for yuan-ti in the book?

I feel somewhat childish about this but my book is due yet another week from now (Germany *sigh*) 

Thanks in advance


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## alaric (Apr 11, 2004)

Zack2216 said:
			
		

> What did they do with Animal Affinity? Is it just a general increase in a stat, or an enhancement bonus? Is it augmentable?
> 
> Also, what did they do to the bite and claw powers? Did they turn them all into one augmentable power?




Animal Affinity is a +4 enhancement bonus to any attribute, you can augment to add bonus's to more than one attribute.

Claw of the Beast is a swift action that lasts 1hour/level, and is augmentable to do extra damage.

Bite of the Wolf is 1 minute/level, but the damage scales without augmentation up to 5d8 at 20th level (not bad for a single power point).


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## alaric (Apr 11, 2004)

Ssyleia said:
			
		

> After reading the entire threat, I didn't see someone put up something on the psionic yuan-ti.
> 
> As yuan-ti are my favorite villains, I'd wonder whether someone who has the books could please sum up for me what's changed for yuan-ti in the book?
> 
> ...




Like some of the other monsters in the book, Yuan-Ti are now Yuan-Ti, Psionic.  They list the Pureblood, Halfblood, and Abomination variants.  They all get Alternate Form, Darkvision, Power Resistance, and a handful of psi-like abilities, a good many of which are at will.


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## Ssyleia (Apr 11, 2004)

alaric said:
			
		

> Like some of the other monsters in the book, Yuan-Ti are now Yuan-Ti, Psionic.  They list the Pureblood, Halfblood, and Abomination variants.  They all get Alternate Form, Darkvision, Power Resistance, and a handful of psi-like abilities, a good many of which are at will.




Tanks a lot Alaric,

To bad they didn't include the Template Yuan-ti (from various sources) and Anathema from the Fiend Folio...

Well I guess I have to make my own conversion there when I get the book and maybe put it up with mangled names on yuan-ti.com ;-)


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## Nightfall (Apr 11, 2004)

Azazyll said:
			
		

> Scarred Lands did NOT come up with the idea of heralds for deities, the bible did that. Scarred Lands presents a lot of neat new idea, and WotC occasssionally copies new ideas. The herald of a deity does not fall under either of those umbrellas.



Maybe not but it still a better idea than some things they've used for deities. Like stats.


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## Staffan (Apr 11, 2004)

alaric said:
			
		

> Claw of the Beast is a swift action that lasts 1hour/level, and is augmentable to do extra damage.



Is there a life-draining power along the lines of _claw of the vampire_? And if so, what does it say about damage modifications? E.g. if I have Str 20, an _amulet of mighty fists +2_ and someone casts a _prayer_, will I get back 1d6 or 1d6+8 hp when I hit someone?


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## LoneWolf23 (Apr 11, 2004)

Staffan said:
			
		

> Is there a life-draining power along the lines of _claw of the vampire_? And if so, what does it say about damage modifications? E.g. if I have Str 20, an _amulet of mighty fists +2_ and someone casts a _prayer_, will I get back 1d6 or 1d6+8 hp when I hit someone?




There is a _Claws of the Vampire_ power for Psychic Warriors in the ExpPsiHB, and it works like this: First, you need either a natural claw attack or the _Claws of the Beast_ power, which you use to deal the actual damage.  You then heal a number of HP equal to half the base damage dealth, rounded down.  

Additional damage dealt because of a high Strength score or other enhancement bonuses do not count toward the amount you heal.  You heal as many HP as can be gained while the creature remains at 1 HP or higher.  Any damage that reduces the creature to 0 or less HP doesn't benefit you.

You also don't heal any damage if your attack deals nonlethal damage, such as when you attack a creature able to regenerate (although if you use _Energy Claws (Fire)_ at the same time, you can use this power on Trolls, I'd imagine).  Plus, you gain no healing if the creature you're attacking is under the effect of _Biofeedback_


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## Kae'Yoss (Apr 11, 2004)

Ssyleia said:
			
		

> I feel somewhat childish about this but my book is due yet another week from now (Germany *sigh*)
> 
> Thanks in advance




The last couple of books were available here before they were available in the US. Why didn't they keep that up at least one more time?


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## woodelf (Apr 13, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, some third party publishers have confused the issue, by offering LA numbers that are clearly meant to be ECL numbers.




Here's one i've been wondering about: why _does_ the default statblock list LA, rather than ECL? Surely, the only time you'll be using it is if you're making a PC, and wouldn't it be much easier to just add the HD and LA, and report the ECL, since that's the number you'll actually use when making a character? When would you use the LA instead of the ECL (i.e., ignore the HD)? Either one can be easily derived from the other, of course, but i'd think it'd be less confusing to report the one that is used, and have the other one derivable, rather than report the unused one (LA), which leads to some confusion of people using it as thought it were the ECL (since that's the number they actually need)


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## woodelf (Apr 13, 2004)

Spatula said:
			
		

> Damn you all... I had no intention of buying this book... I don't even play 3.5!  But this does sounds much, much, better than 3.0 psi rules.  Better than even the patched-up 3.0 psi rules - and it's all in one book to boot!.




I'll go you one better: _i_ might even buy this book, which would make it the first book WotC has published (since _The Primal Order_) that i buy. Though i may have the willpower to hold out until it shows up in the D20SRD. Anyway, it sounds like this might be almost as good as The Complete Psionics Handbook, which i still rank as one of the top three psychic powers rules for any RPG (_The Power_ is in there, and i'm leaving a slot open because there's probably another one i like as much, but that i'm not thinking of right now).


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## woodelf (Apr 13, 2004)

Henry said:
			
		

> I always found that one kind of spurious, myself.
> 
> _"Ialdabode, what did you do to the Gray Render?"
> "HA! I just gave him a death urge! In about 2 days he'll throw himself from the nearest convenient cliff."
> "Um, that's great, but... what about right nowwwwIIIEE! AHH! AHH! HE'S EATING MY FACE! HELP! HELPEPIPLPLGPLGPLGRGRG!"_




See, now, those are exactly the kind of powers/spells i _like_. I wish there were _more_ spells and powers in D&D3E that were _not_ useful in combat (or when preparing for combat)--especially more high-level spells and powers that are not combat-worthy.


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## Corporal_Cupcake (Apr 13, 2004)

*A little powerful?*

What do you all think about the 1st-level power that does 1d10 damage to a creature and is augmentable (for each additional power point, an additional d10 damage is dealt) (i.e. Mind Thrust)? Even with a WILL save and SR (OK, PR), isn't this about two die sizes more powerful than an equivalent arcane spell?


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## Particle_Man (Apr 13, 2004)

Corporal_Cupcake said:
			
		

> What do you all think about the 1st-level power that does 1d10 damage to a creature and is augmentable (for each additional power point, an additional d10 damage is dealt) (i.e. Mind Thrust)? Even with a WILL save and SR (OK, PR), isn't this about two die sizes more powerful than an equivalent arcane spell?




I think the two main differences are that the save negates all damage, instead of saving for half, and that it doesn't affect creatures immune to mind-affecting spells/powers.  So in that sense I think it is balanced.


----------



## ph0rk (Apr 14, 2004)

Azazyll said:
			
		

> Two little rants:
> 
> Scarred Lands did NOT come up with the idea of heralds for deities, the bible did that.




No, the bible didn't introduce the concept of someone acting as a messenger for a diety - I'm quite certain wackos have been claiming to be the eyes/ears/mouth of god/gods/goddesses/ants ever since the first member of the genus homo learned how to talk.

_Religious commentary removed. ~ Piratecat_

Can anyone confirm that Psychic Warriors still get weapon specialization for free at 6th level?


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## Mouseferatu (Apr 14, 2004)

ph0rk said:
			
		

> Can anyone confirm that Psychic Warriors still get weapon specialization for free at 6th level?




Nope, they don't. In fact, they don't qualify for Weapon Specialization at all anymore, unless they have four levels of fighter. OTOH, they're a cooler class overall; I don't think the loss of Weapon Spec hurts them at all. (More importantly, it gives the fighters at least one thing nobody else can have, which, IMO, is a good thing.)


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## Henry (Apr 14, 2004)

woodelf said:
			
		

> See, now, those are exactly the kind of powers/spells i _like_. I wish there were _more_ spells and powers in D&D3E that were _not_ useful in combat (or when preparing for combat)--especially more high-level spells and powers that are not combat-worthy.




I like them in theory, but they rarely see use in practice by most players I've run into. I was surprised to re-read 3.0 fatal attraction to find out just how useful they made it - usually, a power's too busy covering things in goo or making your eyes glow to be subtle. But there is still a fair number that are useful outside of combat - but so many, from hear and feel light, see sound, etc. were basically flavor text with a power point cost attached. I was glad to hear that some of those had been given reworkings.


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## I'm A Banana (Apr 14, 2004)

Sweet tap-dancing roller skate bears.....I'm actually contemplating dropping the Sorc for these guys (maybe adding new discipline lists for dragonblood, feyblood, etc)....wow, I'm surprised at myself.


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## Plane Sailing (Apr 14, 2004)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> I don't think the loss of Weapon Spec hurts them {psychic warriors} at all.




So what can you tell me about psychic warriors? How are they different from before? 

As you might guess, it seems like it will be a while before the books reach the UK...


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## Spatula (Apr 14, 2004)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> So what can you tell me about psychic warriors? How are they different from before?



No more Weapon Specialization.  No more Tumble, Balance, or Use Psionic Device as class skills.  All their powers work off of Wisdom.  They now get bonus power points (based off of manifester level, not power level access, which is a pretty good deal - compare that to bards, for example).  Their powers are generally a lot better than before and there's no problem learning any of them as long as your Wisdom is high enough (vs. 3.0 where the Int- and Cha-based powers weren't likely to get used).  Psionic Weapon-type feats no longer cost power points to use - instead you have to expend you psionic focus.  This makes those feats harder to use more than once per combat, but then Psionic Weapon now adds +2d6 damage instead of +1d4 (and there's an improved version that does +4d6).


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## Greybar (Apr 14, 2004)

> No more Weapon Specialization. No more Tumble, Balance, or Use Psionic Device as class skills. All their powers work off of Wisdom




Sounds like a great match for a Monk multiclass.  Hmm... I see a certain set of NPCs in my game that will need redesigning...


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## Shard O'Glase (Apr 14, 2004)

I got it now and I have to say overall it is way better than the previous books.  Still I have some problems.  The discipline powers are a good idea but I think poorly implimented.  For telepathy there are too many of the things I'd conisder basic telepathy powers that all psions and wilders should  have access to.  I mean powers that are basically detect thoughts are the basic bread and buter powers of telepathy all should be able to master.  Death urge seems more of a discipline power but its a general.  

The kineticist is kinda cool especially with autohypnosis as a class skill but most of the blasting is covered by the basics. Sure the kineticist is better but the basics are covered, this is more like what it should be like.  

Also while I think psioncs are liekly balanced I doubt the disciplines are.  Shpaers get like 14 powers or so to the telepaths 20, and there are a decent number of really lame powers on the shapers list.  Quintessense oh yeah I can preserve really small things.

Some powers seem a bit much, psionic chirgery I think its called allows you to teach others powers if they can manifest that level of powers and it can go beyondthere known power level limit and can include powers form other disciplines.  Sure it costs XP, but who wouldn't run around hunting high elvel telepaths down for this kind of hookup almost no matter what the cost.

Overall I got small beefs so far so its a good buy.


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## Greybar (Apr 14, 2004)

I'm not too worried if there are not enough powers - we'll see more added via the WebEnhancement process I bet, plus a splatbook, plus 3rd-party books....


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## Driddle (Apr 14, 2004)

I may have missed it in this thread, but...

Are there any generally equivalent class abilities for a psi version of a ranger's or druid's empathy for animals? Which class would be most likely to train, communicate to, or otherwise deal with dumb wild critters?


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## el-remmen (Apr 14, 2004)

Three questions:

1) What is this MAD thing people kept mentioning earlier in this thread?

2) Are there any significant suggestions about running the 'psionics as different' variant?

3) How do psionic attacks/defenses work now?


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## Seule (Apr 14, 2004)

Now I just have to hope my FLGS can get the book in close to the street date.  I've ordered it, we'll see.
So much goodness...

  --Seule


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## Psion (Apr 14, 2004)

nemmerle said:
			
		

> Three questions:
> 
> 1) What is this MAD thing people kept mentioning earlier in this thread?




Multiple attribute dependency. The claim is that psions were weak because as they raised in levels, their selection of powers became very narrow unless they have multiple high attributes.

I always thought that claim was overblown. Many psionic powers had versions in many disciplines.

What I was concerned about was the ability to use any ability score made some types of psions preferable to other. Savants (Con) is the best, afaict, and Egoists (Str) were the weakest (so to speak).




> 3) How do psionic attacks/defenses work now?




All powers now. Someone posted a summary earlier in the thread.


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## Particle_Man (Apr 14, 2004)

Driddle said:
			
		

> I may have missed it in this thread, but...
> 
> Are there any generally equivalent class abilities for a psi version of a ranger's or druid's empathy for animals? Which class would be most likely to train, communicate to, or otherwise deal with dumb wild critters?




No class has Handle Animal as a class skill in the xph.  But, there is a nice power called Telempathic Projection that modifies a creatures reaction toward's you positively one step for 1 min/lvl, and that works on animals.  Also, the power "attraction" lasts for 1 hr/lvl, and could make a creature attracted either to you or to something else, and thus might be useful in training a creature.


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## Spatula (Apr 14, 2004)

> Are there any generally equivalent class abilities for a psi version of a ranger's or druid's empathy for animals?



No.  The closest you can get is _charming_ a critter.  A 7th level manifester can use _psionic charm_ on an animal for 1 day/level.







> Which class would be most likely to train, communicate to, or otherwise deal with dumb wild critters?



Well, telepaths have the easiest access to _psionic charm_.  None of the classes has Handle Animal on their class list.


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## Spatula (Apr 14, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> Multiple attribute dependency. The claim is that psions were weak because as they raised in levels, their selection of powers became very narrow unless they have multiple high attributes.
> 
> I always thought that claim was overblown. Many psionic powers had versions in many disciplines.



??? There is one such power in the 3.0 PsiHB - Divert Teleport (7th level Psychokinesis/Psychoportation.  I think Mindscapes adds one or two more, one of which is a 0-level power (Detect Compulsion, Clairsentience/Telepathy).


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## Spatula (Apr 14, 2004)

nemmerle said:
			
		

> 2) Are there any significant suggestions about running the 'psionics as different' variant?



Yes.  One of thing I was pleased to see was a more advanced treatment of how to deal with having magic & psi different, including suggestions for different levels of different-ness.


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## Aaron L (Apr 14, 2004)

After reading through my copy I think it is very good and I am very happy with it.  I especially like all the different energy attack powers that make psions a nice wizard substitute.


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## Nightfall (Apr 14, 2004)

After seeing all this, I really want this book to see if I can upgrade Echoes as well as SL Psionics.


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## Tuzenbach (Apr 19, 2004)

I guess this book is good to have, then? I'll run out and get a copy!



*runs out and gets copy*


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## Evilhalfling (Apr 19, 2004)

Does this power seem a little broken to anyone else ? 
*Vigor* 
lvl: psion1, psywarrior 1
Manifest time : 1 standard action 
Range: personal 
Duration 1 min/lvl 
gain 5 temporary hp. Using this power again merely replaces the remaining old temporary hp with new ones. *Augment * for ever addtional point the number of temp hp you gain increases by 5.

I know the orginal was horribly unerpowered but really - a 5th level psion basically doubles his hp for 5 psp.


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## Henry (Apr 19, 2004)

Well, considering that he almost has to do it during combat (1 minute per level), it's not as bad, since it takes away an action, and he can only do it to himself. It would probably be slightly more balanced at 2 pp's per 5 hit points, I suppose.

The one I'm interested in is the psionic body feat: +2 permanent hit points with EVERY Psionic Feat you take, including itself? Any Psychic Warrior worth his salt is going to be hunting this one, since half of his feats are going to be Psionic. Add that to Vigor, and you've got a PsyWar with double or possibly triple the hit points of his fellow fighters wading into battle.

I made a 1st lvl PsyWar for fun last night - he had a 12 CON, and 15 hit points!  If I had taken vigor, he could have entered battle with 20 hit points - that's more than a 1st level Barbarian with 18 CON and the toughness feat! His one-shot Psionic Weapon focus with a two-handed sword would net 2d6 + 2d6 + strength bonus if it hit. It's one-shot, but that's a lotta damage for a first level character. The scariest thing is he could probably withstand his own hit.


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## Felon (Apr 20, 2004)

Henry said:
			
		

> The one I'm interested in is the psionic body feat: +2 permanent hit points with EVERY Psionic Feat you take, including itself? Any Psychic Warrior worth his salt is going to be hunting this one, since half of his feats are going to be Psionic. Add that to Vigor, and you've got a PsyWar with double or possibly triple the hit points of his fellow fighters wading into battle.
> 
> I made a 1st lvl PsyWar for fun last night - he had a 12 CON, and 15 hit points!  If I had taken vigor, he could have entered battle with 20 hit points - that's more than a 1st level Barbarian with 18 CON and the toughness feat! His one-shot Psionic Weapon focus with a two-handed sword would net 2d6 + 2d6 + strength bonus if it hit. It's one-shot, but that's a lotta damage for a first level character. The scariest thing is he could probably withstand his own hit.




Well, I guess the barbarian could take Improved Toughness, and maybe we should factor barbarian rage into the picture? Hmm. Still looking rather smackdownish in comparison. 

Not to get too rantish or anything, but this is what makes me (and I imagine others) shy away from bringing psionics into a campaign. The notion that a psi-character's feats should be inherently superior to a non-psi-character's feats is lame and awkward. If they're better than feats, then don't make'em feats; make them class features. This is the third 3.5e book I've seen that wants to introduce feats-on-steroids (the other two being the regional feats from PGtF and the Exalted tripe from BoED). I can only hope the trend ends some time soon.


----------



## Staffan (Apr 20, 2004)

Felon said:
			
		

> The notion that a psi-character's feats should be inherently superior to a non-psi-character's feats is lame and awkward. If they're better than feats, then don't make'em feats; make them class features. This is the third 3.5e book I've seen that wants to introduce feats-on-steroids (the other two being the regional feats from PGtF and the Exalted tripe from BoED). I can only hope the trend ends some time soon.



It's well established that feats with heavier prerequisites are allowed to be better than feats without. "Being psionic" is a prerequisite, and therefore it's OK for psionic feats to be slightly better than others, assuming other prerequisites are the same (the same would go for the Exalted feats). In addition, there's a balancing factor for psionic feats in that they are Supernatural rather than Extraordinary, which means they don't work in _antimagic fields_ and the like.

Many of the psionic feats also have situational prerequisites, especially relating to psionic focus (having or expending). Getting +2d6 damage seems nice at first glance, but for most characters that will be a once/combat thing, with a few feats more and a high Concentration skill turning it into a once-per-round-without-full-attack-or-move thing instead.


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## Psion (Apr 20, 2004)

Spatula said:
			
		

> ??? There is one such power in the 3.0 PsiHB - Divert Teleport (7th level Psychokinesis/Psychoportation.




I did not say the _same_ power. Notice how the recall pain series in clairsentiece, the inflict pain in telepathy, whitefire metacreative, concussion in psychokinesis?


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## Psion (Apr 20, 2004)

> The notion that a psi-character's feats should be inherently superior to a non-psi-character's feats is lame and awkward.




Any justification behind this bare value judgement?



> If they're better than feats, then don't make'em feats; make them class features.




Ah, but access to the feat _is_ a class feature. Does is bother you that only a fighter can access the weapon specialization feat chain? Same thing with psionics. I think psionic feats are a great tool to express the different nature of psionic characters.


----------



## Tratyn Runewind (Apr 20, 2004)

Hello, 

Some initial impressions from my recent reading...


*Overall*, to me, a serious improvement over the original 3E PsiHB.  Multiple ability dependency is gone, Powers are highly scalable and augmentable in a manner similar in many ways to the new _Unearthed Arcana_'s spell point system, Psionic Feats are much saner than they were before, the Power Displays are much less annoying, and there's just plain more cool _stuff_.
*Low-level characters* can get a good suite of iconic "signature" Powers very early on.  A first-level Telepath can start with a mental communication Power (Mindlink), a mental attack Power (Mind Thrust), and either a mind control Power (Psionic Charm) or a quite decent mental defense Power (Empty Mind, apparently the old "Mind Blank" defense mode renamed so as not to cause confusion with the Mind Blank Power that is similar to the Spell of the same name).  Telekinetics get level-1 Powers that move objects at a distance (Far Hand, similar to Mage Hand), deflect attacks (Force Screen and Inertial Armor), and shape energy into attack rays (Energy Ray); an actual kinetic-force attack (Concussion Blast) is a level-2 Power, and the Telekinesis Spell itself (level 5 for Wizards and Sorcerers) has been broken up into 3 seperate Powers, two of which are level-3 and one of which is level-4.  Seers get lots of precognitive combat and skill tricks early, and the equivalent of 3.0 (i. e., unlimited range) Clairaudience/Clairvoyance as a level-2 Power.  Psychometabolism offers scads of cheap Temporary Hit Points as a level-1 Power, with Damage Resistance at level-2, and psionic self-healing at level-3.  And Nomads can get their first Teleportation-subtype Power as a level-2 Power now.
*The Psionic Talent Feat* makes it possible for very low-level psionic characters to use their Powers quite often; a first-level human Psion with slightly above-average key ability who spent all three Feats on Psionic Talent has 12 Power Points, and can thus, in theory, manifest the equivalent of twelve level-1 Spells in one day.  This is somewhat balanced by the fact that many level-1 Powers are the equivalent of level-0 Spells, and is more harshly balanced by the fact that as the costs of higher-level Powers rise, those extra Power Points start to lose much of their relative value compared to the benefits of the Feats forgone to get them - especially the nice Psionic Feats passed up.  Decisions, decisions...
*The Psychokinetic Powers* seem to have much more emphasis on manipulation of non-kinetic energies than is typical in most psi-genre stuff I've read.  This, though, was the case in the original PsiHB, too, so it's not really a change.  I do find it very interesting that they've given the various energy types the PK'rs can pick from slightly differing game effects beyond simply getting past different forms of energy resistance or immunity.  Cold "energies", in particular, are nasty in that they change the half-damage Save to a Fort Save from a Reflex Save, getting around the Evasion/Improved Evasion of Rogues and Monks.  I'd love to see similar flavor-tweaks for energy types done for magic, for consistency's sake, if nothing else.
*The Wilder* is an interesting class, its position relative to the Psion roughly analogous to that of the Sorcerer compared to the Wizard.  They get FAR fewer Powers Known than a Psion - about a third the number, consistently to level 20, when they know a total of eleven powers of levels 1 through 9 (not counting any they may have learned with Feats).  Even Sorcerers are not nearly so limited in their options.  And Wilder Power Point progression is the exact same as a Psions.  Their main advantage lies in being able to "Wild Surge" at will, getting a boost in effective Manifester Level _and_ "free" Power Points to pay for the boosted Power, at risk of temporary slight debilitation.  Wilders who avoid the debilitation can also get minor morale-based combat bonuses for a little while from the "rush" of channeling the extra power, and their seething emotions also drain Telepaths who touch their minds and give them an intuition bonus against touch attacks.  It's a way cool concept, but the very limited list of Powers Known, and the slow rate of acquiring them, is an exceedingly harsh balancing factor, especially considering that the Wilder is the only Power-Manifesting Class to get _no_ Bonus Feats (which can be spent to learn new Powers), and the only Class at all, normal or Prestige, which gains _no_ Bonus Feats for Epic Level progression.  I'm hoping that the lack of Epic Bonus Feats is a Halfling Outrider BAB/Soulknife BAB-type outright error.
Speaking of *limits on Powers Known*, I was under the impression, from stuff I'd read on these boards, that study and spending XPs would allow characters to gain new Powers in excess of the normal limits.  This is mistaken - you can research Powers, existing or all-new, but this will explicitly NOT allow you to exceed the normal limits on Powers Known by Class and Level - only the Expanded Knowledge feat, and certain Epic Feats, will allow that.  Not sure whether the scuttlebutt around here was wrong, or if I just misinterpreted it.
*The Duodimensional weapon* abilities have been toned down into simply the psionic equivalent of Keen weapons; I'm not sure how it was done in the original 3e PsiHB, but I seem to remember a time when these things ignored all armor bonuses to AC. 
There's a bigger assortment of *psionic "enchanted" items*, of which my favorites right now are probably the Masks and Third Eyes - nice to see more stuff that takes up the eyeglasses/lenses/goggles slot on a character's body.  
*All the "essential" psionic beasties* (that is, to me, a non-Dark Sun fan) are covered:  mind flayers, githyanki/githzerai, duergar, aboleths, intellect devourers, brain moles, thought eaters, couatls.  Even the cerebral parasites are back, after a fashion, as a disease you can catch from the brain moles.  Only critters I halfway miss are shedu and psionic molds and oozes.  Intellect devourer has this cool thing now where it can actually 



Spoiler



crawl inside a skull and animate a body - if the owner is alive when this happens, he instantly dies


.  There are a bunch of other creatures I'm less enthused about, as well.



> Posted by Shard O'Glase:
> *The discipline powers are a good idea but I think poorly implimented. For telepathy there are too many of the things I'd conisder basic telepathy powers that all psions and wilders should have access to. I mean powers that are basically detect thoughts are the basic bread and buter powers of telepathy all should be able to master. Death urge seems more of a discipline power but its a general.*




I don't know that I'd go so far as to call them "poorly implemented", but there are certainly some things I'd have done a little differently.  Read Thoughts as a Telepath-only Power is likely one of them, but the one that surprised me the most was Dimension Slide - not only not on the Nomad list, but not on the Psion/Wilder list at all; only Psychic Warriors can take it without blowing a Feat on it.



> Posted by Evilhalfling:
> *Does this power seem a little broken to anyone else ?
> [ - snip description for "Vigor" Power - ]*




Not to me; certainly no worse than the massive curing capabilites of a Cleric of similar level.  The THP's may help keep you alive in a spot where the healer can't get to you, but the cured points are back forever, where the THP's are gone essentially after one fight, and can only be used for the one party member with the Power.



> Posted by Henry:
> *The one I'm interested in is the psionic body feat: +2 permanent hit points with EVERY Psionic Feat you take, including itself? Any Psychic Warrior worth his salt is going to be hunting this one, since half of his feats are going to be Psionic. Add that to Vigor, and you've got a PsyWar with double or possibly triple the hit points of his fellow fighters wading into battle.*




This doesn't really seem all that bad.  If you took Toughness over and over instead of Psionic Body and your other Psi Feats, you'd get 3 HP per Feat, a 50% improvement.  Since D&D combatants fight at full efficiency until they lose their last Hit Point, that handful of extra HP will come into play only in real emergency situations.  The same could be said, though, of many Psi Feat abilities, which often require expenditure of the jealously-hoarded-for-emergency-use Focus, or simply provide options that are unneccessary in the large majority of orc bake/mook thrashing combat situations.  So, while it's certainly a nice feat, that will likely make it into many min-maxed psi-warrior builds, it doesn't seem either essential or unbalancing to me.



> Posted by Felon:
> *The notion that a psi-character's feats should be inherently superior to a non-psi-character's feats is lame and awkward.*




As I've mentioned above, this aspect actually seems seriously toned down to me in this book compared to the 3.0 PsiHB.  Some truly egregious Feats (like Inertial Armor) have been turned into Powers, many others have been chilled out with Focus and the need to maintain or expend it, non-psis get their own Feats to add a bit more balance, and, at worst, the Wild Talent Feat lets anyone play, "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em".

Hope this helps!


----------



## Vocenoctum (Apr 21, 2004)

Tratyn Runewind said:
			
		

> Hello,
> [*]*All the "essential" psionic beasties* (that is, to me, a non-Dark Sun fan) are covered:  mind flayers, githyanki/githzerai, duergar, aboleths, intellect devourers, brain moles, thought eaters, couatls.  Even the cerebral parasites are back, after a fashion, as a disease you can catch from the brain moles.  Only critters I halfway miss are shedu and psionic molds and oozes.  Intellect devourer has this cool thing now where it can actually
> 
> 
> ...



They still don't have the platypus of death, so I'm still unhappy. Who needs another freaking cat thing?


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## Snapdragyn (Apr 21, 2004)

*Cloak Dance feat*

I find the Cloak Dance feat interesting. It's a general feat, & only prereq. is 10 ranks Hide & 2 ranks Perform (dance). Granted, you can't get it until 9th level (have to be 7th to get the Hide ranks, then next feat at 9th), & I guess by then maybe you'll have enough items that expending a move action each round of combat to gain concealment wouldn't be worth it... or would it? I haven't hit those levels yet in my return to D&D, but I have to say this looks really pretty sweet.

Oh, one thing I think is funny about it -- there's no mention that you actually need a cloak in order to cloak dance. This raises the question (with a /nod to Order of the Stick)... if a bard cloak danced naked in the forest, would anyone see him?


----------



## glass (Apr 21, 2004)

MerricB said:
			
		

> I wonder if, in 4E, _feather fall_ will be Casting Time: 1 Immediate action?




I hope so!


glass.


----------



## Staffan (Apr 21, 2004)

Tratyn Runewind said:
			
		

> Some truly egregious Feats (like Inertial Armor) have been turned into Powers,



What was so bad about 3.0 inertial armor? Unless your character had a really bad Strength score, you would likely be better off just putting on a masterwork chain shirt worth about 400 gp. OK, you get a -1 penalty to attack rolls and all the stuff affected by armor (unless you're multiclassing), but on the other hand you can get enhancement bonuses with the armor, and you have 1 PP more to use, not to mention one more feat.


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## Felon (Apr 22, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> Any justification behind this bare value judgement?




Only the self-evident justification: that of all-things-being-equal, one class shouldn't have exclusive access to feats that occlude the strength of feats that other classes have access to just to make the class more appealing. Unless there is some mitigating factor, like the class being deficient in some other respect, that's a pretty clearly unbalanced design strategy. So you tell me, Psi: are psionic characters deficient in some respect? Do the more powerful feats compensate them for something that I've missed out on? Or do they get uber feats just for the heck of it?



> Ah, but access to the feat _is_ a class feature.




At best, that's just all the more reason to incorporate them into class features, not just make them an add-on that they can also take once every 3 levels. At worst, that's a weak reason to rationalize their power level. The Complete Warrior introduced feats that gave enhancements to a barbarian's rage and a ranger's favored enemy abilities, but their class-specificness wasn't used as a rationale to torque them up unduly. 



> Does is bother you that only a fighter can access the weapon specialization feat chain? Same thing with psionics. I think psionic feats are a great tool to express the different nature of psionic characters.




First and foremost, you should realize that fighters are unique in the respect that all they are is a pile of feats. That's their bread and butter, that's all they get. That's their mitigating factor, their deficiency, their grounds for compensation with a class-specific feat. The same cannot be said for any psionic character. The feats are gravy. 

And even bearing that mind, Weapon Specialization is a pretty minor enhancement. Weighed against the damage bonuses other classes receive from their innate features, such as rage, smite, or sneak attack, the +2 damage from WS is a fighter patch. It keeps them in the running. 

If you want the nature of psionicists to be different, that's fine. But the simple fact of the matter is, the nature of 3.0 psionic feats weren't just _different_, but *better*. Would you declare Weapon Specialization to be in the same league as Deep Impact? 



			
				Tratyn Runewind said:
			
		

> this aspect actually seems seriously toned down to me in this book compared to the 3.0 PsiHB.  Some truly egregious Feats (like Inertial Armor) have been turned into Powers, many others have been chilled out with Focus and the need to maintain or expend it




I hope you're right. I'm still not sure if I like the focus. I'm concerned that the need to buff makes a psi-fighter lopsided rather than balanced.


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## Psion (Apr 22, 2004)

Felon said:
			
		

> Only the self-evident justification: that of all-things-being-equal, one class shouldn't have exclusive access to feats that occlude the strength of feats that other classes have access to just to make the class more appealing. Unless there is some mitigating factor, like the class being deficient in some other respect, that's a pretty clearly unbalanced design strategy. So you tell me, Psi: are psionic characters deficient in some respect? Do the more powerful feats compensate them for something that I've missed out on? Or do they get uber feats just for the heck of it?[/b]




The mitigating factor is the requirement of the feat. Psychic focus. A psy war can't wade into combat and use psionic attack after psionic attack after psionic attack. He loses his focus. He also can't combine two feats that expend the focus, and lose access to feats that require the focus after they lost it, and can't easily regain it during combat.

In short, the feats aren't all that uber, as you claim.




> *Ah, but access to the feat is a class feature.*






> At best, that's just all the more reason to make them into class features.




No, it's not. Feats are a tool used to shape a class. To pile on lots of extra class features would make it so you had to water down the rest of the class. Using the resource pool of feats in a manner more in line with the capabilities of the psionic is a perfectly acceptable solution.



> At worst, that's a weak reason to rationalize their power level. The Complete Warrior introduced feats that gave enhancements to a barbarian's rage and a ranger's favored enemy abilities, but their class-specificness wasn't used as a rationale to torque them up unduly.




I'm not seeing that they are "torqued up unduly."

(That said, that's a dangerous gambit, since I see feats in CW that are quite a bit of a balance concern. Fortunately, I think WotC did a better job on this one.)



> First and foremost, you should realize that fighters are unique in the respect that all they are is a pile of feats. That's their bread and butter, that's all they get. That's their mitigating factor, their deficiency, their grounds for compensation with a class-specific feat. The same cannot be said for any psionic character. The feats are gravy.




Feh. They are a resource pool and can be manipulated to change the style of resources available to the psionic character. There is no reason not to. None.


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## Felon (Apr 22, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> Feh. They are a resource pool and can be manipulated to change the style of resources available to the psionic character. There is no reason not to. None.




As long as they're balanced, no there isn't. 

To clarify, I'm not angry or upset that the 3.5e feats are too uber. Haven't had the opportunity to get the book for myself yet. Rather, from what I'm hearing I'm _concerned_ that they may still reflect their 3.0 status, and worse still, join the ranks of BoED and PGtF in offering one special category of feats that are bigger and better than others, without a significant mitigating factor.

[EDIT] Just from the sound of it, the focus factor sounds lopsided. Characters that can rank anywhere between tissue to titanium depending on whether or not they've had a chance to buff are awkward. It certainly makes it rougher on the DM to know how to gauge an encounter if he has no idea whether or not the PC's will see an encounter coming or stumble headlong into it.


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## Tratyn Runewind (Apr 22, 2004)

Hi again, 



> Posted by Staffan:
> *What was so bad about 3.0 inertial armor?*




It was, in effect, Mage Armor with Permanency, available to first-level characters.  Sure, it costs a Feat.  So does Light Armor Proficiency, for a straight-up Psion.  The Inertial Armor costs no money, works against incorporeal critters, is invisible, and can't be taken from the character.  The "drawback"?  Maintaining a 1-Power Point reserve, as though spellcasters and psionics didn't already hoard their last few Spells or Power Points for dire emergencies.  Yes, psionic combat and other serious situations can expend a character's last Power Point, lowering the protection; the Mage Armor with Permanency, though, can be Dispelled, losing forever the XP sunk into it, wheras the Inertial Armor will be back again the next morning.



> Posted by Felon:
> *all-things-being-equal, one class shouldn't have exclusive access to feats that occlude the strength of feats that other classes have access to just to make the class more appealing. *




The fact is, the psionic Classes do _not_ have "exclusive" access to the psionic Feats.  Anyone with Power Points - meaning, the psionic Classes _and_ anyone who takes the Wild Talent Feat, can take the psionic Feats.  If it makes things easier for you, you can think of the situation as being equivalent to, psionic Feats are available to anyone with the Wild Talent Feat, and the psionic Classes have as a Class Feature the equivalent of Wild Talent as a bonus Feat.

By the way, I'm probably one of the few who is happy that the duration for the Domination Power has been reduced to "concentration".  That was how it was back in the day, when there was no Domination Spell.  Domination was turned into a Spell in 2nd Edition, apparently for the sole purpose of allowing non-psionic Mind Flayers (an idea I've never been thrilled about), though it also beefed up the then-new Wizard-subclass of Enchanter.  Psionic Charm allows decent long-term control, with only the telepathic link really missing, and any Telepath worth his salt who can manifest long-term Charm can just link up at will with the Correspond Power, which is similar to an improved Sending Spell.  Suitable psionic alteration of a subject's memories can also help make him more pliable over the long term.

Again, hope this helps!


----------



## Felon (Apr 22, 2004)

Tratyn Runewind said:
			
		

> It was, in effect, Mage Armor with Permanency, available to first-level characters.  Sure, it costs a Feat.  So does Light Armor Proficiency, for a straight-up Psion.  The Inertial Armor costs no money, works against incorporeal critters, is invisible, and can't be taken from the character.  The "drawback"?  Maintaining a 1-Power Point reserve, as though spellcasters and psionics didn't already hoard their last few Spells or Power Points for dire emergencies.  Yes, psionic combat and other serious situations can expend a character's last Power Point, lowering the protection; the Mage Armor with Permanency, though, can be Dispelled, losing forever the XP sunk into it, wheras the Inertial Armor will be back again the next morning.




Inertial armor is supposed to be a prime asset of githzerai. Do they still have that up as long as they remain conscious?


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## Plane Sailing (Apr 22, 2004)

Felon said:
			
		

> Only the self-evident justification: that of all-things-being-equal, one class shouldn't have exclusive access to feats that occlude the strength of feats that other classes have access to just to make the class more appealing. Unless there is some mitigating factor, like the class being deficient in some other respect, that's a pretty clearly unbalanced design strategy.




Out of interest, what do you think of the various divine feats? Exclusive to those classes which can use turning, and they can give some pretty supernatural bonuses. Not many people would rank clerics as being deficient in some respect either!


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## Staffan (Apr 22, 2004)

Tratyn Runewind said:
			
		

> It was, in effect, Mage Armor with Permanency, available to first-level characters.  Sure, it costs a Feat.  So does Light Armor Proficiency, for a straight-up Psion.  The Inertial Armor costs no money, works against incorporeal critters, is invisible, and can't be taken from the character.  The "drawback"?  Maintaining a 1-Power Point reserve, as though spellcasters and psionics didn't already hoard their last few Spells or Power Points for dire emergencies.  Yes, psionic combat and other serious situations can expend a character's last Power Point, lowering the protection; the Mage Armor with Permanency, though, can be Dispelled, losing forever the XP sunk into it, wheras the Inertial Armor will be back again the next morning.



Inertial Armor v3.0 has the disadvantage compared to a chain shirt that it can't be made better. If you're relying on Inertial Armor for your Armor bonus, the next step upward costs 25,000 gp and makes your feat investment worthless (_bracers of armor +5_). If you instead had chosen Light Armor proficiency, you could have gotten an armor bonus of +5 for 1,250 gp (a _chain shirt +1_), and can upgrade that further. Or you could use the feat for something else entirely, and either use a MW/magic chain shirt with a -1 to attacks or MW/magic studded leather and have no penalty at all.

That's what you should compare Inertial Armor to, not some hypothetical _mage armor + permanency_ combo (which isn't allowed by the rules, BTW).



> By the way, I'm probably one of the few who is happy that the duration for the Domination Power has been reduced to "concentration".  That was how it was back in the day, when there was no Domination Spell.



I don't have a problem with Domination having a duration of Concentration, per se. It's psionic domination having a concentration duration and arcane domination lasting for days. If there's anything psionics should be better at than arcane magic, it's mind control.


			
				Felon said:
			
		

> Inertial armor is supposed to be a prime asset of githzerai. Do they still have that up as long as they remain conscious?



Not quite. They can now manifest _inertial armor_ as a psi-like ability 3/day, with a manifester level equal to HD/2. Since it's a psi-like ability, it is assumed to be augmented as much as possible, which means they get more AC at higher levels (+1/4 HD), and it also has a duration of 1 h/manifester level (or 1 h/2 HD). So, in essence they get stronger inertial armor that lasts for less time (though at 16th level, they essentially have permanent inertial armor).


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## kigmatzomat (Apr 22, 2004)

Staffan said:
			
		

> Inertial Armor v3.0 has the disadvantage compared to a chain shirt that it can't be made better. ...the next step upward costs 25,000 gp  (_bracers of armor +5_). If you instead had chosen Light Armor proficiency, you could have gotten an armor bonus of +5 for 1,250 gp (a _chain shirt +1_) Or you could use the feat for something else entirely, and either use a MW/magic chain shirt with a -1 to attacks or MW/magic studded leather and have no penalty at all.




Yes, but those items can all be destroyed or taken and don't have all the same advantages.  Maybe Inertial armor could be dispelled but it would come up again in 1 round while items shut down for d4 rounds.    Inertial armor works against incorpeal even when wearing other armor so as long as you aren't using bracers, it's an advantage.  It doesn't take an item slot.  Inertial armor applies when doing things like taking a bath or at a social event where armor is gauche.  I would probably wear +1 leather armor and use the dee

IA isn't an end-all-be-all solution, but it's never *bad* and almost never wasted.


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## Felon (Apr 22, 2004)

Staffan said:
			
		

> Not quite. They can now manifest _inertial armor_ as a psi-like ability 3/day, with a manifester level equal to HD/2. Since it's a psi-like ability, it is assumed to be augmented as much as possible, which means they get more AC at higher levels (+1/4 HD), and it also has a duration of 1 h/manifester level (or 1 h/2 HD). So, in essence they get stronger inertial armor that lasts for less time (though at 16th level, they essentially have permanent inertial armor).




OK, so is the base AC from Inertial Armor +4 then? If it starts at +1, then a +1 per 4 level progression kinda stinks, especially if their effective level is only half their character level.

Thanks for the info!


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## Plane Sailing (Apr 23, 2004)

Felon said:
			
		

> OK, so is the base AC from Inertial Armor +4 then? If it starts at +1, then a +1 per 4 level progression kinda stinks, especially if their effective level is only half their character level.
> 
> Thanks for the info!




The inertial armour power gives +4 armour bonus to AC, and +1 per 2pp it is augmented by. (Force screen gives +4 shield bonus to AC and +1 per 4pp)


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Apr 23, 2004)

Domination: Psionic is better. You can dominate nearly anything you run into at 9th-level, the wizard has to wait 8 more levels to do so.

I don't care if the wizard's spell lasts a lot longer, it would be broken in the hands of a class with power point flexibility. You want cohorts? Beg your DM for the Leadership feat instead of using some broken power. Being able to dominate hordes of followers for days (and not pay power points on days 2-5) is just ridiculous.

I would be happier if it had a duration of 1 minute/level, though.

Platypus of Death: it's still there, it's just got some (transparent) flesh on it. Actually, there are two of them, the regular version (thought devourer) and the uber thought slayer.


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## jasamcarl (Apr 23, 2004)

Felon said:
			
		

> As long as they're balanced, no there isn't.
> 
> To clarify, I'm not angry or upset that the 3.5e feats are too uber. Haven't had the opportunity to get the book for myself yet. Rather, from what I'm hearing I'm _concerned_ that they may still reflect their 3.0 status, and worse still, join the ranks of BoED and PGtF in offering one special category of feats that are bigger and better than others, without a significant mitigating factor.
> 
> [EDIT] Just from the sound of it, the focus factor sounds lopsided. Characters that can rank anywhere between tissue to titanium depending on whether or not they've had a chance to buff are awkward. It certainly makes it rougher on the DM to know how to gauge an encounter if he has no idea whether or not the PC's will see an encounter coming or stumble headlong into it.




The requirement for focus is not more awkward then a dozen other variations in class utility that comes up in play, i.e. wizard spell preperation and dm's choice of opponents. They are basically quick boost feats that blow hard and then out with a very discernable tactical cost in time; it would be easier to keep track of than the wizard's spell list, the number of barbarian rages, etc.

That said, I share some of your conscern over the the new psion's balance, but for different reasons.


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## EricNoah (Apr 23, 2004)

Psi-philes might be interested to know that I've completed a "beta" version of an XPH spreadsheet.  Grab a copy here and please let me know about any mistakes you find:  http://webpages.charter.net/ericnoah/noahrpg/xphpowersbeta.zip .  I was half asleep for the PsyWarrior sheet so there's probably plenty of room for improvement.


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## Tratyn Runewind (Apr 23, 2004)

Hello again, 

Hmm, Staffan has been kind enough to respond to the githyanki question that was asked of me, so I'll move on to other items...



> Posted by Staffan:
> *That's what you should compare Inertial Armor to, not some hypothetical mage armor + permanency combo (which isn't allowed by the rules, BTW).*




Anything that improves AC would seem to me to be a legitimate comparison for Inertial Armor.  Among Feats, that looks like Dodge (vastly inferior to Inertial Armor), Expertise (somewhat inferior to Inertial Armor), Mobility (vastly inferior to Inertial Armor), Armor Proficiency (somewhat inferior to Inertial Armor, though much easier to get with a level of the right class), and Craft Magic Arms and Armor (perhaps the equal of Inertial Armor, though with much higher costs attached to it).  And yes, the Mage Armor - Permanency combo _is_ disallowed without explicit GM permission (and special research).  Yet it still well describes the game effect of Inertial Armor.  Do you really think that this effect was disallowed because it was too weak or too uninteresting, rather than too powerful?



> Posted by Staffan:
> *I don't have a problem with Domination having a duration of Concentration, per se. It's psionic domination having a concentration duration and arcane domination lasting for days. If there's anything psionics should be better at than arcane magic, it's mind control.*




It appears to me that psionic mind control _is_ better than magical in pretty much every respect _except_ duration.  And both as a matter of flavor and a matter of balance decisions, I have no problem with psionics in general being more dependent on concentration than magic is.  There's also a cool Power (Solicit Psicrystal) that lets you turn over maintenance of a concentration-duration Power to your Psicrystal, if you _really_ have to do something else while maintaining Domination...  



> Posted by Plane Sailing:
> *The inertial armour power gives +4 armour bonus to AC, and +1 per 2pp it is augmented by. (Force screen gives +4 shield bonus to AC and +1 per 4pp)*




Yes, Inertial Armor is an augmentable psionic analog of Mage Armor, just as Force Screen is the rough equivalent of the Shield Spell.  Durations, in particular, are comparable to their magical versions.



> Posted by (Psi) SeveredHead:
> *You want cohorts? Beg your DM for the Leadership feat instead of using some broken power. Being able to dominate hordes of followers for days (and not pay power points on days 2-5) is just ridiculous.*




The Thrallherd PC has a Class Feature that functions a lot like an improved Leadership Feat, raking in a bunch of less-than-completely-voluntary flunkies and a few higher-level followers.  You don't appear to be able to pick particular individuals for this control, though - susceptible people just start to trickle in under your influence once you have the ability.  Doesn't "stack" with Leadership, either.

Hope this helps!


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## Plane Sailing (Apr 23, 2004)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Psi-philes might be interested to know that I've completed a "beta" version of an XPH spreadsheet.  Grab a copy here and please let me know about any mistakes you find:  http://webpages.charter.net/ericnoah/noahrpg/xphpowersbeta.zip .  I was half asleep for the PsyWarrior sheet so there's probably plenty of room for improvement.




It is nice work Eric. Can I suggest a possible improvement?

I don't like the way that the discipline powers end up bunched at the bottom away from the main list of powers. Would it work better to have a separate column to show discipline only / psion list (enabling easy filtering if needed) and then to include colour-coded lines at the bottom of each spell level?

I think that might be easier to use when selecting powers and better for display purposes too.

*edit: I've just noticed that you've got some appropriate columns in there - setting the powers table to sort on power level and power name within power level provides what I want with no extra work. Gotta love spreadsheets!

Perhaps it would be worth including something optional about that in the instructions page?*

Cheers


----------



## Plane Sailing (Apr 23, 2004)

Also, I think you've got the data for the Seer power "second chance" wrong. You've got "You can reroll one attack, save, ability or skill check per round." but I think the way it works is that

a) you manifest the power, and it lasts for 1r per level
b) at any point during that duration you can expend it to gain the reroll. That single reroll ends the power.

Otherwise it would be humongously powerful!


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## Staffan (Apr 23, 2004)

Felon said:
			
		

> OK, so is the base AC from Inertial Armor +4 then? If it starts at +1, then a +1 per 4 level progression kinda stinks, especially if their effective level is only half their character level.



Yeah, "base" _inertial armor_ is +4. It's augmentable, costing 2 PP per extra +1.

Since githzerai get it as a psi-like ability, it is considered augmented to the full manifester level, which in this case is equal to HD/2. So if you have a 6th level githzerai monk, his manifester level is 3. This means he "spends" 3 PP on the power when he uses it, which pumps it up to an armor bonus of +5.



			
				Tratyn Runewind said:
			
		

> Anything that improves AC would seem to me to be a legitimate comparison for Inertial Armor. Among Feats, that looks like Dodge (vastly inferior to Inertial Armor), Expertise (somewhat inferior to Inertial Armor), Mobility (vastly inferior to Inertial Armor), Armor Proficiency (somewhat inferior to Inertial Armor, though much easier to get with a level of the right class), and Craft Magic Arms and Armor (perhaps the equal of Inertial Armor, though with much higher costs attached to it).



You have to consider the bonus type as well. Armor bonuses are dirt cheap to get - you can get +8 for only 1500 gp if you're willing to take the mobility hit to get it. Other bonuses max out at +5, and generally cost something like 50,000 gp to get that much. You can't get dodge bonuses at all via magic items (at least none I can think of).

_Inertial armor_ gives an Armor bonus, which means you have to compare it to other things that give armor bonuses. The closest equivalent in 3.0 was the masterwork chain shirt or the _+1 studded leather_, costing 250 gp and 1,175 gp, respectively. Personally, I think a feat is worth a bit more than 1,175 gp.

Also, _inertial armor_ is not as good for the psionic character as _mage armor_ is for the wizard. The main attraction of _mage armor_ is that the wizard can cast spells in it without problems. This is a non-issue for the psion - if he's willing to take the -6 penalty to attacks, he can walk around in a tin can (full plate) and get +8 to AC, and still use his powers without any problems whatsoever.


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## EricNoah (Apr 23, 2004)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> Also, I think you've got the data for the Seer power "second chance" wrong. You've got "You can reroll one attack, save, ability or skill check per round." but I think the way it works is that
> 
> a) you manifest the power, and it lasts for 1r per level
> b) at any point during that duration you can expend it to gain the reroll. That single reroll ends the power.
> ...




I will certainly check again, but I think the way I have it is right.  I think there's a lower level power that is sort of a "discharge" power as you describe.  

Thanks, everyone, for the suggestions and corrections!


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## Henry (Apr 23, 2004)

Tratyn Runewind said:
			
		

> This doesn't really seem all that bad.  If you took Toughness over and over instead of Psionic Body and your other Psi Feats, you'd get 3 HP per Feat, a 50% improvement.




Except that Psi-Body means that each feat does something else AND gives you two points - a double whammy. Even Psi-Body itself gives 2 points just for taking it, rather than merely opening the door. I don't think it's overpowered, but put it in context with Vigor; it doesn't require Points, and when stacked with vigor, means a PsyWar is going to be a very formidable force. Vigor, by itself, costing 1 point per 5 hit points, and capping at caster level, means that it's no unbalanced, Combining it with Psi-Body is a no-brainer; i would be surprised to see which Psychic Warrior DOESN'T pick it, especially by the middle levels. 

In a thread over on Monte Cook's site, someont complained that a "front-line fighter" like the psywar only had a d8 hit dice. Vigor and Psi-Body mean that he could have a TEN constitution - and still come out well.  In summary, I think that both vigor and this feat are just about right.


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## EricNoah (Apr 23, 2004)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> I will certainly check again, but I think the way I have it is right.  I think there's a lower level power that is sort of a "discharge" power as you describe.




Double-checking -- and I still think I'm right.  Here's a direct quote: "you gain the ability to reroll one attack roll, one saving throw, one ability check, or one skill check *each round*."  It's a 5th level power, so I don't find that to be out of line.


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## EricNoah (Apr 23, 2004)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> It is nice work Eric. Can I suggest a possible improvement?
> 
> I don't like the way that the discipline powers end up bunched at the bottom away from the main list of powers.




I like your way of thinking!  I have re-organized the Psion list so it goes 

Psion 1
--powers
Egoist 1
--powers
Kineticist 1
--powers
...
Psion 2
--powers
Egoist
--powers

etc.

Next version will be posted like that.  Thanks!


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## Piratecat (Apr 23, 2004)

Thanks, Eric! I just used it for my psiwarrior and to prepare a villain, and the positioning of the discipline powers really bugged me.

Another request: When you're picking "true" powers, is there any way for it to tell you how many you have left to pick, compared to the number of powers you get at any particular level? That might be more work than is justified, but I found it hard to track how many powers I had already selected.

Something you might have already have fixed: in the instructions, you set the filter to "true," not "false" as is listed.

Anyways, this is really useful.


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## EricNoah (Apr 23, 2004)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Another request: When you're picking "true" powers, is there any way for it to tell you how many you have left to pick, compared to the number of powers you get at any particular level? That might be more work than is justified, but I found it hard to track how many powers I had already selected.




I'm finding the same thing, but I don't know what to do about it.  I agree a "counter" or something would be really spiffy.  Or even have the TRUE show up in a different color (like red) so you can quickly scan down the list...

EDIT: OOH.... something called "Conditional Formatting" .... I could do different cell colors for TRUE (leave FALSE white and make TRUE green or something).... Gonna try it out!


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## Plane Sailing (Apr 23, 2004)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Double-checking -- and I still think I'm right.  Here's a direct quote: "you gain the ability to reroll one attack roll, one saving throw, one ability check, or one skill check *each round*."  It's a 5th level power, so I don't find that to be out of line.




I think it could probably do with clarification style errata!

The power duration in its "stat block" says "1 round per level or until discharged". This makes it sound like it can be used once but you can delay the time at which it is used for up to your level in rounds.

Compare it with the 7th level power "fate of one", which for 13pp lets you reroll one thing as an immediate action.

If it *does* allow you to take one reroll each round it looks significantly better than the 6th level Greater Precognition that gives you a single +4 bonus at some point in the next (level) hours! 

Although having to make a saving throw yourself doesn't come up very often on your own turn, the ability would end up looking like this:

Manifest Second Chance
For the next 9 melee rounds get two chances to hit with your primary attack each round ?!? I can imagine 12th level wilders or 18th level psywars rushing to get this via "Expanded Knowledge" if that is the case 

Cheers


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## Plane Sailing (Apr 23, 2004)

Surprising Omissions from the powers list

I'm on my second read through of the powers at the moment, and there are a couple of really surprising omissions.

*Astral Projection. * Surely a quintessential psionic power? Astral Caravan etc just doesn't match up to the lovely ability to go and adventure safely on other planes!

*Foresight. * Sure, its a loosely defined wizard power, but it seems to be exactly the kind of thing that should be on the Seer list (say at 8th level).

and possibly even

*Truestrike. * Again with its insight bonus to attack it seems like an obvious Seer and Psywar power.

What do you think about these three?


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## Spatula (Apr 24, 2004)

Astral Projection should definitely be there.  But then again, look at what level Ethereal Jaunt and Etherealness are for Psions (vs wizards & clerics).


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## Thanee (Apr 24, 2004)

Spatula said:
			
		

> Astral Projection should definitely be there.  But then again, look at what level Ethereal Jaunt and Etherealness are for Psions (vs wizards & clerics).




Same level.

Bye
Thanee


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## Spatula (Apr 24, 2004)

Well, I'll be... hadn't noticed that those spells had changed level in 3.5.


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## EricNoah (Apr 24, 2004)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> I think it could probably do with clarification style errata!
> 
> The power duration in its "stat block" says "1 round per level or until discharged". This makes it sound like it can be used once but you can delay the time at which it is used for up to your level in rounds.
> 
> ...




I agree that it could use clarification. 

(Not that I'm any kind of rules guru or anything, but I disagree that it's all that powerful.  You have to decide what you want to "spend" it on each round -- maybe you should save it for a saving throw, or maybe you should use it on an attack.  Plus, if you are using it to attack, that means you missed on the original roll, right?  If you missed, it's probably because a) you had little chance of hitting in the first place, and so a re-roll isn't all that much help, or b) you had a good chance of hitting so a re-roll puts things back the way they "should have worked out."  I don't know, I don't see it being that big a deal.  Maybe it's because I've been playing a rogue with Slippery Mind, where you get to re-roll your Will save 1 rnd later -- and it doesn't seem like I manage to make it the second time all that often.   )


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## Plane Sailing (Apr 24, 2004)

How do you think it compares with the 6th level greater precognition though? It seems quite a lot better in many ways (not least because you could get many attempts at rerolls and you are quite likely to get more than 4 better than you could have done on the first roll at least once! It is only worse in the rare situation where you *couldn't* make it without the +4 bonus.)

I suppose in a way my thinking is informed by the old "Fate of One" power which in 3e was a 4th level power which allowed you to make one reroll as (effectively) an immediate power. Basically the same as the 7th level version does now.

A PC in my campaign had that power and I can't say that it was a terribly overpowered thing - more like a nice to have (and the seer really needed a nice to have after struggling through lots of relatively useless stuff!)

Cheers


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## Plane Sailing (Apr 24, 2004)

Do the xp costs for Matter Manipulation seem a bit excessive to anyone?

250xp *for each point of hardness changed* up to +/- 5?

Compare it with what you can do with Bend Reality for a mere 300xp, or even worse compare it with what a wizard can do with polymorph Object!

The costing of this power just seems mad...


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## Kid Charlemagne (Apr 24, 2004)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> Surprising Omissions from the powers list
> *Astral Projection. * Surely a quintessential psionic power? Astral Caravan etc just doesn't match up to the lovely ability to go and adventure safely on other planes!




There is Plane Shift, however, so planar travel is covered in other ways.


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## Spatula (Apr 24, 2004)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> There is Plane Shift, however, so planar travel is covered in other ways.



Sure, but Astral Projection is a bit more psionic-y (casting your mind out across the planes and all that) than Plane Shift.  If only one of those powers was going to make it, it probably should have been Astral Projection.


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## EricNoah (Apr 24, 2004)

New version of the beta's been posted; in addition to the arrangement of the Psion powers as noted earlier, I've applied some "conditional formatting" so it's easier to spot your TRUE powers from your FALSE powers.  

http://webpages.charter.net/ericnoah/noahrpg/xphpowersbeta.zip


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## Plane Sailing (Apr 24, 2004)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> There is Plane Shift, however, so planar travel is covered in other ways.




However, with Plane shift you are really there and can really die; with astral projection you can't. With Plane shift you have to cope with deadly planar natures yourself, with astral projection you don't have to.

Plus, as spatula said, sending your spirit out from your body... how psionicy is that?


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Apr 25, 2004)

> Truestrike. Again with its insight bonus to attack it seems like an obvious Seer and Psywar power.



Hell no. Sorry, but let's not put that anywhere near psionics. They've got their little bit of cheese, wizards have their little bit of cheese, and those two cheeses can stay _very_ far away from each other.

Besides, there's no way paying 1 power points for a +20 insight bonus to attack rolls is going to be balanced.

As for Astral Projection, I vaguely recall people complaining that it was overpowered. I never saw it in use, though.

Foresight is not needed; not when Danger Sense does what it's supposed to do (at 8th-level, but still).


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## Plane Sailing (Apr 25, 2004)

Yes, I'm with you on the truestrike, just had to mention it though 

Danger sense can handle the mechanical aspects of foresight, but not the really useful (and DM dependent) stuff...


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## Kai Lord (Apr 25, 2004)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Double-checking -- and I still think I'm right.  Here's a direct quote: "you gain the ability to reroll one attack roll, one saving throw, one ability check, or one skill check *each round*."  It's a 5th level power, so I don't find that to be out of line.



I think its pretty clear that the power ends after you use it once.  For 1 round/level, you gain the *ability* to reroll one roll, but if you use the ability the power's over.  Note that the description states that for each round *you do not have to make another roll if satisfied with your original roll* meaning you can "save" the power until you want to discharge it on a poor roll or until the duration expires.


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## Dravar (Apr 25, 2004)

(Psi)SeveredHead said:
			
		

> Domination: Psionic is better. You can dominate nearly anything you run into at 9th-level, the wizard has to wait 8 more levels to do so.
> 
> I don't care if the wizard's spell lasts a lot longer, it would be broken in the hands of a class with power point flexibility. You want cohorts? Beg your DM for the Leadership feat instead of using some broken power. Being able to dominate hordes of followers for days (and not pay power points on days 2-5) is just ridiculous.
> 
> I would be happier if it had a duration of 1 minute/level, though.




Actually you can augment Dominate.  Andrew Finch (with Bruce Cordell) confirmed this in a thread, along with several other corrections.

XPH Clarifications 

Quick Summary:
Spend 1 additional pp = 1 hour.
Spend 2 additional pp = 1 day.
Spend 4 additional pp = 1 day/manifester level.


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Apr 25, 2004)

Dravar said:
			
		

> Actually you can augment Dominate.  Andrew Finch (with Bruce Cordell) confirmed this in a thread, along with several other corrections.
> 
> XPH Clarifications
> 
> ...




Yeah, I heard about this first on the WotC boards.

I'm happy with just the first augmentation. The rest I'll drop from my campaign. Hmm... now it's basically a 12 power point power.



			
				PlaneSailing said:
			
		

> Danger sense can handle the mechanical aspects of foresight, but not the really useful (and DM dependent) stuff...




True, but then again you can still see the future with a lot of powers. Hmm... so _divination_ says I'll get jumped in the town square?


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