# Can a Simulacrum cast spells?



## Dwarmaj (Mar 5, 2003)

> Simulacrum
> 
> Illusion (Shadow)
> Level: Sor/Wiz 7
> ...




Under knowledge it mentions level, skills, and speech, but says nothing about spell use or feats of the creator.

If a simulacrum does have spell use and feats, can they cast spells that cost exp or create items (if they know the spell or feat)?


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## Shard O'Glase (Mar 5, 2003)

I've always thought yes they can cast spells, no to XP.

Then again the only person in my campaign world whoose detailed out to have cast the spell is a creepy wizard who uses it to "possess" the women he fancies.


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## MerakSpielman (Mar 6, 2003)

I've always thought NO, but on rereading the spell, it is unclear.

It says the Sim gets 51-60% of the knowledge (including Level) of the original. It does not specifically say they gain a class or class abilities, but if they don't, what does having a Level mean?

A 20th level wizard casts the spell on himself and gets a 15th level Sim. Is the Sim a 15th level Wizard, or a 15th level Misc Entity? 

I'm going to have to go with it's a 15th level wizard - otherwise it makes no sense.

The obvious thing, then, to do is have the Sim study your spellbook and support you in combat as a free henchman.

This, to me, goes against the spirit (but not the letter) of the spell. I think it should be used primarily for desception and subterfuge. In my campaign, an evil cult was kidnapping royalty and leaving Sims in their place, who would promptly dismiss anybody who might detect that they were fakes. Then the cult was in position to snatch Ultimate Power! Bwahahaha! Or you could create a Sim so that people aren't aware of a person's absence. I.e., create a Sim of a public figure so he is free to go adventure and the people still think he's in town.

etc...

If I were writing D&D 3.5, I would remove mention of Level from the Sim spell description.


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## Tzarevitch (Mar 6, 2003)

This is another one on my list of spells that could use some clarification. I always interpreted the description to say that it cannot cast spells. The description states with some specificity what a simulacrum does get and spellcasting and feats are not among them. 

Tzarevitch


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## MerakSpielman (Mar 6, 2003)

Yes, clarification. What the blazes does it mean when it says the Sim gets 51-60% of the real creature's Level?

I've seen munchkins do some really, really, bad things with this spell and their extra magical items, with the pro-spellcasting interpretation.


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## Piratecat (Mar 6, 2003)

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> * What the blazes does it mean when it says the Sim gets 51-60% of the real creature's Level?
> *




It means they get a portion of class abilities, too. That includes spell casting!


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## the Jester (Mar 6, 2003)

I agree with the three legged cat over there; in fact, _simulacrum_ is gonna be an important piece of a trap in the next coupla games I run (heh heh...)


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## MerakSpielman (Mar 6, 2003)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *
> 
> It means they get a portion of class abilities, too. That includes spell casting! *




But does it mean that it gets all the abilities of the reduced level? Or does it lose 40% of the knowledge/abilities/skills of each individual level? (i.e., only a 60% chance of having each particular feat, each particular spell, etc).


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## Zhure (Mar 6, 2003)

It'd be epic, but Maximize that Simulacrum for a flat 60%. Or Empower it for a extra around 5%... but either way, I just reduce the levels and that fixes all the weirdness.

Greg


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## Piratecat (Mar 6, 2003)

It really is unclear.

I take the original level and reduce it to 51-60%. That slashes skills, spells, abilities, and the like. Then I reduce the simulacrum's vocabulary by about half when talking, and I'm all set.


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## Dwarmaj (Mar 6, 2003)

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> *
> 
> But does it mean that it gets all the abilities of the reduced level? Or does it lose 40% of the knowledge/abilities/skills of each individual level? (i.e., only a 60% chance of having each particular feat, each particular spell, etc). *




Unless there's errata or further clarification, I believe an empowered Simulacrum would be a 9th level spell and be 75.5%-90% of the original.

Magic Missle is 1d4+1 empowered is (2-5 * 1.5)
Simulacrum is 1d10+50% empowered is (51%-60% *1.5)

An Incantatrix with Instant Metamagic could create a duplicate with 100% of the originals abilities (scarry). 

I think that allowing spell use is within the wording of the spell, but can unbalance things. What Wizard wouldn't like to have a copy of himself for spell support or even setting off traps.


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## Darkness (Mar 6, 2003)

Dwarmaj said:
			
		

> *An Incantatrix with Instant Metamagic could create a duplicate with 100% of the originals abilities (scarry). *



Before or after Magic of Faerun errata?


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## Tzarevitch (Mar 6, 2003)

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> *Yes, clarification. What the blazes does it mean when it says the Sim gets 51-60% of the real creature's Level?
> 
> I've seen munchkins do some really, really, bad things with this spell and their extra magical items, with the pro-spellcasting interpretation. *




I have too. The description (as poorly written as it is) seems to leave out both spellcasting and feats. If they intended for it to be able to cast spells, they would've stated so specifically, after all, the most frequent use is to make a simulacrum of the mage himself. 

One of the most overlooked uses of a simulacrum is for intelligence gathering. In my previous campaign the PCs injured a badguy who escaped. They then made a simulacrum of him and could find his favorite haunts and knew the spells he knew (he was a sorcerer) to 60% accuracy. If they needed to up the odds, they'd make multiple simulacra. (Honestly, the xp cost is WAY too low for this spell, especially if you rule that the similarcum can cast spells.)

The PCs then took samples from people they wanted to know information about (usually foes who escaped in a fight, or anyone who they were interested in and could get a sample from). The results were pretty horrific because there is no good way to block this sort of information gathering other than to prevent the PCs getting enough of a sample to make it in the first place. There are only so many times that you can rule that the information the PCs seek is not in the 51-60% of the information that the similacrum knows. 

Also, which 51-60% of the levels does the simplacrum get? Take for example a Ftr2, Rog2, Wiz5, Red Wizard3,Guild Mage3, Loremaster 5, exactly which levels does the simplacrum get?

Tzarevitch


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## RuminDange (Mar 6, 2003)

*Simulacrum and Spellcasting*

Actually a simulacrum can cast spells depending on the final %level of the original.  For clarification to this you only have to look in *Dungeon#89* in the Adventure "Headless".
This adventure uses 4 such simulacrum of a Derro Necromancer - Lore Master each representing 58% of the original main NPC. The stat block lists the spells prepared all the way up to 4th Level spells.  Even the possessions listed the diamond dust components needed to cast the Stoneskin spell.
So even though the spell itself doesn't say the sim can cast spells, WOTC, who published this one, did allow such therefore as a DM I would allow it, and have used this to great effect in my current campaign where the King's advisor has 7 such sims of himself just to be able to do the things he needs or wants to do.


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## Hypersmurf (Mar 6, 2003)

> *Unless there's errata or further clarification, I believe an empowered Simulacrum would be a 9th level spell and be 75.5%-90% of the original.*




And a double-empowered Simulacrum in an epic slot?  102%-120% of the original?

-Hyp.


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## Dwarmaj (Mar 6, 2003)

*Re: Simulacrum and Spellcasting*

...Or have a prepared Empowered Simulacrum and use a Rod of Greater Empower


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## Piratecat (Mar 6, 2003)

Have you guys seen the small print on Bruce Cordell's recent psionic version of the spell?  It's in the superb new pdf Mindscapes, over at Monte's site.  Note the last paragraph in particular.

Impresa
Metacreative (Intelligence)
Level: Psion 5
Display: Material (see text)
Manifestation Time: One hour
Range: 0 feet
Effect: One rough-duplicate creature
Duration: 24 hours
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 9

Impresa creates a rough copy of any creature you have physically touched whose normal Hit Dice value does not exceed your own character level × 1.5 (round down) and whose size does not exceed your own size category plus one.  You create the impresa from astral matter. (It is considered a construct.) The impresa appears generally the same as the original, but differences exist: The impresa has only 20 percent of the hit points, knowledge (including level, skills, and personal memories), and personality of the real creature.

Creatures familiar with the original detect the ruse with a successful opposed Sense Motive check versus your prerolled Bluff check each time they interact with the impresa in any meaningful way. You must make a Bluff check with a +10 circumstance bonus when you manifest the power to determine how good the likeness is. 

At all times the impresa remains under your absolute command. No special telepathic link exists, so you must command it verbally. The impresa has no ability to become more powerful. It cannot increase its level or abilities. It does not maintain knowledge of sensitive information, such as passwords or secret plots. If destroyed, it reverts to ectoplasm and evaporates.


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## Hypersmurf (Mar 6, 2003)

*Re: Re: Simulacrum and Spellcasting*



> *...Or have a prepared Empowered Simulacrum and use a Rod of Greater Empower *




I thought of that one, but I don't have my Tome and Blood at work, so I couldn't check if it was possible 

Now, if a Simulacrum _can_ cast XP-component spells, and you're 20th level, 120% of your level is 24th... and he can borrow your Rod, cast a Double-Empowered Simulacrum, and create a 28th level Simulacrum, who can in turn create a 33rd...

Woo!

"Nobody knows when the Simulacra developed free will.  All that is recorded is that one day, with no warning, they were everywhere; outnumbering us, and each more powerful than any wizard that had ever lived.  Those few of us born of woman who survive fight a losing war against the Simulacra armies..."

-Hyp.


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## reichtfeld (Mar 7, 2003)

> "Nobody knows when the Simulacra developed free will. All that is recorded is that one day, with no warning, they were everywhere; outnumbering us, and each more powerful than any wizard that had ever lived. Those few of us born of woman who survive fight a losing war against the Simulacra armies..."



(humming the Terminator theme)  Rgr20 John Connor was not going to let humanity lay down and die.  No.  He taught them to fight, and fight they did against the level 10,000 wizard simulacrums.  

This and other exploits can be seen on Metamagic Gone Wild!  Order now!


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## Shard O'Glase (Mar 7, 2003)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> *Have you guys seen the small print on Bruce Cordell's recent psionic version of the spell?  It's in the superb new pdf Mindscapes, over at Monte's site.  Note the last paragraph in particular.
> 
> Impresa
> . *




power looks cool.  Anyone know when this goes print or if it does.  I hate PDF, but I'd buy the hard copy version in an instant.


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## kreynolds (Mar 7, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Simulacrum and Spellcasting*



			
				Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> *I thought of that one, but I don't have my Tome and Blood at work, so I couldn't check if it was possible  *




Sure is. You can't use more than one metamagic rod on a single spell, but you can combine a metamagic rod with your own personal metamagic feats.


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## Celebrim (Mar 7, 2003)

> Unless there's errata or further clarification, I believe an empowered Simulacrum would be a 9th level spell and be 75.5%-90% of the original.




Err... one of us is confused about something.

Empower increases the random effects of a spell by 50%.

An empowered Simulacrum (9th level spell) has 52%-65% of its target's level.   A doubly empowered Simulacrum (assuming you allow that, an 11the level spell) has 52%-73% of its target's level.

The calculation is done as follows 50% + 1d10x1.5% = 50% + 1.5..15%

For magic missile the calculation is 1 + 1d4x1.5 = 1 + 1.5..6 = 3-7 per missile.

Am I completely screwed up or is empowered just utterly insane and broken period and I never realized it?  If my explanation is not correct, then what does an empowered Evard's Black Tentacles look like?


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## Hypersmurf (Mar 7, 2003)

> *For magic missile the calculation is 1 + 1d4x1.5 = 1 + 1.5..6 = 3-7 per missile.*




Now go back and reread the Empower Spell example of empowering a magic missile in the PHB.



> *If my explanation is not correct, then what does an empowered Evard's Black Tentacles look like? *




You get 1d4 x 1.5 tentacles, dealing 1d6 x 1.5 damage on a grapple check.

Since they still need to be within 15 feet of a central point, rolling 1d3 x 5 x 1.5 for the placement makes no sense, so the DM should just exercise the right the spell offers for the DM to place the tenatacles randomly.

-Hyp.


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## IceBear (Mar 7, 2003)

Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> *
> 
> power looks cool.  Anyone know when this goes print or if it does.  I hate PDF, but I'd buy the hard copy version in an instant. *




Since I do most of my DMing online now I actually prefer PDF format for everything (it's also cheaper).  Easier to access and search (I'm also out of shelf space).

To answer your question I think it goes to print sometime this spring but I can't remember the exact date.

IceBear


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## IceBear (Mar 7, 2003)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> *You get 1d4 x 1.5 tentacles, dealing 1d6 x 1.5 damage on a grapple check.
> 
> Since they still need to be within 15 feet of a central point, rolling 1d3 x 5 x 1.5 for the placement makes no sense, so the DM should just exercise the right the spell offers for the DM to place the tenatacles randomly.
> 
> -Hyp. *




Boy - I glanced at that quick and saw "testicles" instead of "tentacles"   

IceBear


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Mar 7, 2003)

Shard, Mindscapes goes on sale in print in April, IIRC. (That's where Impresa is from.)


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## Celebrim (Mar 7, 2003)

hypersmurf: Hmmm... that seems to fly in the face of the feat increasing the random numeric aspects of the feat.   Positive constant modifiers are distinctly non-random.

I'd personally like to say that the example given is wrong, because otherwise you get things like with simulacrum and you get other weirdness.   But, just for instance, what is the effects of empower on:

EBT: Does the 1.5 modifier also increase the bonus damage done?  If not, why not.  Does the 1.5 modifier also effect the +1 tentacle per caster level?

Dispel Magic: Does the 1.5 modifier also increase the bonus to the roll from caster level?  If not, why not?  Is so, doesn't this largely replace Greater Dispelling (at one level lower cost) 95% of the time?

Simulcrum: Well, clearly this spell is busted.


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## Hypersmurf (Mar 7, 2003)

> *I'd personally like to say that the example given is wrong...*




It's the only example they give!  What can you compare it to!?



> *EBT: Does the 1.5 modifier also increase the bonus damage done?  If not, why not.*





What bonus damage?  The Strength bonus?

Of course not.  The damage done is 1d6.  Empowered, it's 1d6 x 1.5.  It has a Str of 19, so you add 4 to that.

It's like an Empowered Shillelagh.  It does 1d10 x 1.5 damage, and then you add the enhancement bonus and your own Str bonus.  The +1 and the +Str in this case aren't random numeric effects, they're constants that modify the random effect.

For a Magic Missile, it's not 1d4 damage with a +1 modifier, it's 1d4+1 damage.   There's a difference.



> *Does the 1.5 modifier also effect the +1 tentacle per caster level?*




Same question goes for Mirror Image (+1 image per caster level), Cure Moderate Wounds (+1 hit point per caster level), and Slay Living (+1 damage per caster level on a failed save).

I'm inclined to say yes.  However, I wouldn't let the bonus hit points of a CMoW go above 10, or the number of figments in a Mirror Image go above 8.



> *Dispel Magic: Does the 1.5 modifier also increase the bonus to the roll from caster level?*




No.  It's like the Shillelagh example above - you don't multiply your attack roll by 1.5.  An attack roll or a Dispel Check is not a random numeric variable of the spell.

-Hyp.


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## drnuncheon (Mar 7, 2003)

Celebrim said:
			
		

> *hypersmurf: Hmmm... that seems to fly in the face of the feat increasing the random numeric aspects of the feat.   Positive constant modifiers are distinctly non-random.*




Don't think of the randomness as 1d4+1 - think of it as '2-5'.  Then you'll see why Empower Spell multiplies all of a magic missile.

When it comes to things like shocking grasp, it's 1-8 + caster level.  The caster level isn't random - it's fixed.  The 1-8 is random.  See the difference?

As for your other questions:

EBT would get +50% on the 1d4 tentacles but nothing else.  The extra tentacles are based on caster level, which is not random, and the damage doesn't get multiplied any more than the damage from the monsters ummoned by an empowered Summon Monster spell.  The effect of the spell is the tentacles, not the damage.

For Dispel Magic, the caster check is not a random, variable _effect_ of the spell - it is a roll to see if the spell works against a particular other spell.

Simulacrum - with the Core Rules only there is no problem - even an Empowered simulacrum can be at best 90% of the caster's power level.  It's when you start adding things from other sources that it becomes possible to surpass that.  I would say that the best thing to do is cap the simulacrum at the caster's power level (or even at 90%), reasoning that a copy cannot be better than the original as it has nothing to draw on for the extra ability - the spell doesn't "know" what to put the "extra" ability into.

J


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## Linda Dawson (May 13, 2018)

Yes, see the the boss battle in expidention to the ruins of Castle Greyhawk


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## Yaarel (May 13, 2018)

I assume − and hope − the simulacrum can cast spells. Some creatures get their power from being a big bag of hit points, other creatures get their power from spellcasting.


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## Loren Pechtel (May 14, 2018)

MerakSpielman said:


> The obvious thing, then, to do is have the Sim study your spellbook and support you in combat as a free henchman.




But do you get 51-60% of XP or level?  If level, you've got a henchman that's all but worthless in combat.


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## Loren Pechtel (May 14, 2018)

Tzarevitch said:


> Also, which 51-60% of the levels does the simplacrum get? Take for example a Ftr2, Rog2, Wiz5, Red Wizard3,Guild Mage3, Loremaster 5, exactly which levels does the simplacrum get?
> 
> Tzarevitch




I would roll d10+50 to get the percentage.  A lucky roll gives you 12 levels, otherwise 10 or 11.  I would then build them up, at each level pick randomly from the classes they are currently eligible for.  Also pick randomly from the skills and feats the original had.

If you end up in a dead end (say, by failing to qualify for a prestige class) backtrack until you reach a point where you can change one of those picks so as to qualify.


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