# Clockwork Orange



## ASH (Mar 10, 2005)

What is the over all concensus of A CLockwork Orange?  I have never seen it and a friend wants me to. It may be somthing I watch this next weekend, but I dont know. My husband really disliked it, as did a few of his friends. But I have heard from others that it is good... Is it a all or nothing movie? Do you have to get meaning out of it to enjoy it?

Discuss: Please no spoilers.


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## Crothian (Mar 10, 2005)

Wow, this movie is out there.  I enjoyed it but not enough to watch a lot or be a diehard. about it.  THough I first saw it in the theater as part of a 24 hour marthon and I relaly knew nothing about it so it was a real shock.  Not the kind of movie I was expecting.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Mar 10, 2005)

I love it. But its definitely not a normal movie...be prepared to have your brain melt out your ears.


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## Lhorgrim (Mar 10, 2005)

I watched it a couple of times many years ago, so my opinion may be a bit clouded by time.

I felt that it was very violent, sort of disturbing, and the ultimate message was about as subtle as a stick in the eye, but that doesn't mean it isnt worth watching.

If your husband has tastes similar to yours, then he may be a good measuring stick for this movie, but I would still suggest you try to watch it, if only to form your own opinion.


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## Viking Bastard (Mar 10, 2005)

Do you like Kubrick's movies overall? That's what it kinda boils 
down to. This is as Kubrickian as you get.

I think it's brilliant. But I love Kubrick.


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## jonesy (Mar 10, 2005)

It's a must see even if you end up hating it. _Especially_ if you end up hating it.


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## Andre (Mar 10, 2005)

jonesy said:
			
		

> It's a must see even if you end up hating it. _Especially_ if you end up hating it.




Then again...I saw it about 15 years ago. I hated it and consider it worse than a waste of my time. Very violent, utterly depraved characters. Supposed to be some profound comment on society or humanity, but it just struck me as sick. To each his own - YMMV.


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## DungeonmasterCal (Mar 10, 2005)

Do not...I repeat... DO NOT watch this movie back to back with Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory while drinking straight rot-gut vodka on a rainy afternoon.  I'm just sayin', is all.


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## Jdvn1 (Mar 10, 2005)

It's good, I guess, but it's good in an, "Ah get that away from me!" kind of way.


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## Darrin Drader (Mar 10, 2005)

I enjoyed it immensely. Its a classic.


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## Vonlok The Bold (Mar 10, 2005)

Definitely disturbing, and unsettling, but I loved this movie.  I have watched it many times, and would do so again.

I read the book after I had already seen the movie, and like most books that are made into a movie, the book is easily superior.  The movie is a classic though.  I loved it.


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## Look_a_Unicorn (Mar 10, 2005)

If you watch movies in order to be entertained, and not challenged then no, I don't think you'll like it.
If you like movies that make you think or that are a vehicle for a message that (in this case Stanley Kubrick) would like to convey, then this will be right up your alley.

Confronting? yes. Violent? definitly. Sickening? Most would agree 
Are all the above justified in the context of the movie- ie not just for their own sake? I think so- as does the philosophy club and the movie appreciation club at my university *shrug*


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## Kiln Publications (Mar 10, 2005)

Saw it in my early 20's and HATED IT, I didn't see what was so great about it. Watched it again in my early 30's and loved it. I guess those ten years of life made me see some things in it that I did not see before. I am one that "reads into movies alot" for the symbolism. I do enjoy movies for the fun value BUT I do look for some deeper meaning as well. I suggest watching it to make up your own mind.


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## mmadsen (Mar 10, 2005)

Simply for cultural literacy, you should see the movie.  And it's certainly an experience.  But it's not a "Hollywood" movie.  The protagonist is not a hero, the movie makes you think, and there's no happy ending.

(Interestingly, the original British edition of the book does have a happy ending of sorts.  The 21st and final chapter has the protagonist grow out of his juvenile deliquency.)

I found _Natural Born Killers_ unwatchable, but I found _Clockwork Orange_ fascinating.


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## Fenris (Mar 10, 2005)

DungeonmasterCal said:
			
		

> Do not...I repeat... DO NOT watch this movie back to back with Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory while drinking straight rot-gut vodka on a rainy afternoon.  I'm just sayin', is all.




Wait, what if you watch them in the OTHER order, eh eh might be ok then., whatta ya think?


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## Tetsubo (Mar 10, 2005)

I consider this a brilliant film. It does make some profound social commentary. It is also very disturbing.


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## Pielorinho (Mar 10, 2005)

I don't think this is a spoiler:  how do you feel about watching extremely violent, and fairly explicit, rape scenes?  Especially ones that are, on one level, played for laughs?

That's not the only level, of course, but it's in there, and for me it was the core of why the movie was so disturbing.  Which was deliberate, I think, on Kubrick's part.

If you can deal with that, I highly recommend the movie.  If you can't deal with that, it's not one ever to watch.

Daniel


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## Flyspeck23 (Mar 10, 2005)

A Clockwork Orange is no movie to watch for entertainment (unless you're a sick weirdo, that is). If that's ok for you, by all means: watch it 




			
				Andre said:
			
		

> Very violent, utterly depraved characters. Supposed to be some profound comment on society or humanity, but it just struck me as sick.



That might well be the whole point.




			
				Pielorinho said:
			
		

> That's not the only level, of course, but it's in there, and for me it was the core of why the movie was so disturbing. Which was deliberate, I think, on Kubrick's part.



I'd bet it was.


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## Rodrigo Istalindir (Mar 10, 2005)

For me 'Clockwork Orange' is like all of most of Kubrick's other films.  Initially they have a visceral impact, but they don't hold up well.  'Clockwork Orange' when you're young is ground-breaking and stunning.  Watch it again after a few years and it's trite, unsubtle, and unimaginatively directed.  

Of couse, as you may have guessed, I don't much care for Kubrick -- I find him to be the most overrated director (except for maybe Spielberg, who has forgotten how to make a complicated movie).

By all means, though, watch it.  It is (good or bad) a classic and influential film.  Just be prepared to be disappointed, as it hasn't aged well.  Partly that's not its fault, as any influential film suffers from dilution by imitators -- I laugh when I see people who have never seen 'Halloween',  for example, complain about how cliche it is.


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## Berandor (Mar 10, 2005)

Pielorinho said:
			
		

> I don't think this is a spoiler:  how do you feel about watching extremely violent, and fairly explicit, rape scenes?  Especially ones that are, on one level, played for laughs?
> 
> That's not the only level, of course, but it's in there, and for me it was the core of why the movie was so disturbing.  Which was deliberate, I think, on Kubrick's part.
> 
> ...



 This is a very good point.

Oh, and I think Clockwork Orange is a must-see film. Disturbing, but in a good way.


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## Berandor (Mar 10, 2005)

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> For me 'Clockwork Orange' is like all of most of Kubrick's other films.  Initially they have a visceral impact, but they don't hold up well.  'Clockwork Orange' when you're young is ground-breaking and stunning.  Watch it again after a few years and it's trite, unsubtle, and unimaginatively directed.
> 
> Of couse, as you may have guessed, I don't much care for Kubrick -- I find him to be the most overrated director (except for maybe Spielberg, who has forgotten how to make a complicated movie).
> 
> By all means, though, watch it.  It is (good or bad) a classic and influential film.  Just be prepared to be disappointed, as it hasn't aged well.  Partly that's not its fault, as any influential film suffers from dilution by imitators -- I laugh when I see people who have never seen 'Halloween',  for example, complain about how cliche it is.



 That might be an even better point.


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## Richards (Mar 11, 2005)

By all means, viddy it and viddy it well, my little droogie.  Just be sure to drink down your synthemesc or drencrom at the moloko plus bar ahead of time if the thought of copious amounts of red, red krovvy and the occasional bit of the old in-out in-out drives you bezoomny.   It's a zammechat, horrorshow movie, one every chelloveck should viddy -- no fillying.  But if you end up feeling bolnoy in the guttiwuts, well then appy polly loggies, my little ptitsa.  Best back to your pee and em with you, and forget I said a slovo.

Your Friend and Humble Narrator,

Johnathan


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## GlassJaw (Mar 11, 2005)

Clockwork rocks.  So many classic scenes.

I've had LASIK and I'll just say it's pretty close to that.


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## Droogie (Mar 11, 2005)

My name comes from this movie. However, its not my favorite Kubrick film. I prefer Full Metal Jacket.


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## Mark (Mar 11, 2005)

Careful.  Not a _first date_ movie, by any stretch of the imagination...


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## Crothian (Mar 11, 2005)

Mark said:
			
		

> Careful.  Not a _first date_ movie, by any stretch of the imagination...




Mark, you are obviously dating the wrong women.....


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## D+1 (Mar 11, 2005)

At the time of it's original release it was undoubtedly edgy, shocking, and all that.  Except for actual nudity you get as much edgy, shocking, and all that on just about any evening drama (even comedy) show on network TV, so in that sense more than any other it has not aged well.  Perhaps that in itself shows that it's messages are still more than relevant, however.

It is a violent, shocking movie in any case and that IS the point of the movie.  It is a commentary on violence, social disorder, free will, crime & punishment and it features as the central character a violent, disturbed, useless, rat bastard of a young man.  I wouldn't call its messages "profound" by any stretch, but it is intended to provoke thought, discussion, and not a little controversy and it is effective at it.

Viewed from that perspective you have every reason to see it if you have the opportunity.  But I would have to agree that Kubrick was overrated.  He was undeniably a talented director, but not as great as all that (and I think _Eyes Wide Shut_ was proof of that).  In all honesty I think _Dr. Strangelove_ was his best work though this probably is Malcolm McDowell's best work.


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## Mark (Mar 11, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Mark, you are obviously dating the wrong women.....






Actually, for me, it wasn't a first date but more of a pre-relationship, bunch-of-us-all-going-to-a-show-together date with a girl I did wind up eventually dating, and it was back in the early eighties when there was a Kubrick revival at some arthouse theatre.  As strange a movie as it was, the surreal part was the two of us being awoken the next day by the sprinklers on the ninth hole of Countryside Golf Course in Mundelein...  

But, yeah, I might had been dating the wrong women and I am amazed how many wrong women there could be.


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## Pants (Mar 11, 2005)

D+1 said:
			
		

> In all honesty I think _Dr. Strangelove_ was his best work though this probably is Malcolm McDowell's best work.



What, no love for McDowell's role as 'a british person' on South Park?   

I watched Clockwork Orange about a year or so ago for the first time.  Very strange, very violent, but also a movie that kept me thinking after it was over.  I liked it.


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## TheAuldGrump (Mar 11, 2005)

Fenris said:
			
		

> Wait, what if you watch them in the OTHER order, eh eh might be ok then., whatta ya think?




There's no Earthly way of knowing...

The Auld Grump, but the danger must be growing...


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## reanjr (Mar 11, 2005)

Eh...

That pretty much sums it up.  It's worth seeing.  Probably not more than once, though.  It's not really funny, scary, sad, etc.  The movie evokes no emotion whatsoever.

But there is a large piece of art in the shape of a penis!!


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## Pielorinho (Mar 11, 2005)

No question but that *Dr. Strangelove* is Kubrick's best movie, at least IMO.  It is intensely funny and depressing, and stands up to repeated viewings better than any other comedy I know of.

Daniel


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## A2Z (Mar 11, 2005)

The only person who can judge the movie for you is yourself. Watch it, either you'll like it or you won't. It's only a couple hourse of your life though and I'm sure you've spent two hours doing less before.


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## ASH (Mar 12, 2005)

Lots of opinions.  I am not sure what to expect from it. I am trying not to go in with any expectations at all. I love all kinds of movies, but shy away from horror flicks. I can easily be entertained by just about anything, but can really appreciate movies that mean somthing more, and make you think.  Its been a long time since I watch a movie that was very serious, so i think that will be the biggest thing.  As for Kubrick movies, i have never seen any that I know of. The only other on on my list too watch is Full Metal Jacket. I am actually renting that somtime in the next couple days.  

I have been convinced this is no movie to watch with the kids home, so they are going to grandma's for the night. I dont need my 5 yr old waking up and hearing violent rape scene's on television.  I am excited to watch it. I will let everyone know what I think after tonight. Thanks to everyone who voiced opinions.


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## mmadsen (Mar 12, 2005)

ASH said:
			
		

> As for Kubrick movies, i have never seen any that I know of.



Whaaaaaat?

His filmography, from IMDB: # Eyes Wide Shut (1999)
# Full Metal Jacket (1987)
# The Shining (1980)
# Barry Lyndon (1975)
# A Clockwork Orange (1971)
# 2001: A Space Odyssey (1968)
# Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb (1964)
# Lolita (1962)
# Spartacus (1960)
# Paths of Glory (1957)
# The Killing (1956)
# Killer's Kiss (1955)
# The Seafarers (1953)
# Fear and Desire (1953)
# Day of the Fight (1951)
# Flying Padre (1951)​


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## Testament (Mar 13, 2005)

Viddy well, my brothers, viddy well!

Doesn't stand up well to repeat viewings, nor has it aged particularly well, but still a film worth seeing.  Nor is it Kubrick's best work (2001 or Full Metal Jacket win that title for me), but still a confronting, provocative film.

The book is a damned site better, but that's always the way.


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## Alhazred (Mar 13, 2005)

I really enjoyed the movie but the book, by Anthony Burgess, was definitely superior.


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## Crothian (Mar 13, 2005)

ASH said:
			
		

> I have been convinced this is no movie to watch with the kids home, so they are going to grandma's for the night. I dont need my 5 yr old waking up and hearing violent rape scene's on television.




Correct, this is not a kids film by any stretch of the imagination.


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## Ace (Mar 13, 2005)

Richards said:
			
		

> By all means, viddy it and viddy it well, my little droogie.  Just be sure to drink down your synthemesc or drencrom at the moloko plus bar ahead of time if the thought of copious amounts of red, red krovvy and the occasional bit of the old in-out in-out drives you bezoomny.   It's a zammechat, horrorshow movie, one every chelloveck should viddy -- no fillying.  But if you end up feeling bolnoy in the guttiwuts, well then appy polly loggies, my little ptitsa.  Best back to your pee and em with you, and forget I said a slovo.
> 
> Your Friend and Humble Narrator,
> 
> Johnathan




horrorshow is  right   

The book BTW is really good -- The movie I haven't seen


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## Jdvn1 (Mar 13, 2005)

The play is actually a dumbed down form of the book and the movie is dumbed down from the play.  So...


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## ASH (Mar 14, 2005)

Watched it. Cant say I liked it, but I didnt dislike it. Waiting to watch it again to form a solid opinion. Over all... worth watching.

And yes this will have been the first Kubrick movie I have ever seen, but apparently we are going to watch 2001 a space oddessy soon.


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## Limper (Mar 15, 2005)

ASH said:
			
		

> Watched it. Cant say I liked it, but I didnt dislike it. Waiting to watch it again to form a solid opinion. Over all... worth watching.
> 
> And yes this will have been the first Kubrick movie I have ever seen, but apparently we are going to watch 2001 a space oddessy soon.




I've seen it a few dozen times. Its a powerful film but very dark.

You might want to read the book for better effect.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Mar 15, 2005)

ASH said:
			
		

> And yes this will have been the first Kubrick movie I have ever seen, but apparently we are going to watch 2001 a space oddessy soon.




Ahhh, 2001. Great, great movie. My personal favourite of Kubrick's. Its definitely another classic...then again, it seems like most of Kubrick's films are 'classics' or 'must see' movies.


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## Limper (Mar 15, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Ahhh, 2001. Great, great movie. My personal favourite of Kubrick's. Its definitely another classic...then again, it seems like most of Kubrick's films are 'classics' or 'must see' movies.




Something one should note while watching 2001 is the release date and the quality of the special effects. In most ways they are superior to the first Star Wars and about 7 years earlier to boot.


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## Wombat (Mar 15, 2005)

I have seen _Clockwork Orange_ about three times.  I find it intriguing, though far from my favourite film, not even for Kubrick (that would be _Dr. Strangelove_).  

Yes, the film is violent.  I also found it rather ambiguous.  It's kinda hard for me to discern, ultimately, what Kubrick is saying about crime & society.  Does incarceration do anything useful?  Is reform even possible?  Are we doomed to just breed further criminals?  I'd rate the film good if for no other reason that I have to think everytime after I watch it.


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## Mark (Mar 15, 2005)

I think Strangelove was his best for its time, but I think Full Metal Jacket is the one that holds up the best.


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## Barendd Nobeard (Mar 15, 2005)

You'll never hear "Singing in the Rain" quite the same way again after watching *A Clockwork Orange*.

I, too, think it hasn't aged very well--that's really the fault of the set + costume design.     But I still like it as a film.  Definitely something to watch when the kids are not at home.  There are movies made since then that are more violent and more sexually explicit.  Yet, somehow, *Clockwork Orange* is sicker (which is intentional).

Oh, you also get to see Darth Vader (David Prowse) without a mask--he's the bodybuilder assitant to the writer toward the end of the movie.  I think he's wearing a purple leotard or something.  See--the costumes don't age well at all.


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## Patman21967 (Mar 15, 2005)

Ok...My honest opinion...I have watched it in several mindsets, if you know what I mean...I loved it, when in the right frame of mine...Not a movie you "get high" and watch. I had a friend try that and he freaked. If I were you, I would watch it, just because you are curious. 

I added some more advice, but removed it, because I felt it was not appropriate


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## Gizzard (Mar 15, 2005)

> It's kinda hard for me to discern, ultimately, what Kubrick is saying about crime & society...




I look at Clockwork Orange as just _showing_ you Alex.  "Here he is.  What are you going to do about him?"  I don't think Kubrick has a position or a solution to the problem.  



> ...Does incarceration do anything useful? Is reform even possible?




Kubrick seemed pretty cynical about incarceration.  He seemed pretty cynical about everything that Alex tried out frankly.  (One of my favorite sequences is seeing what Alex learns from his brush with religion.)


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## Bloodstone Press (Mar 15, 2005)

I thought  it was one of the best comedies I've ever seen.


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## Pielorinho (Mar 15, 2005)

Glad you saw it, ASH.  If i may recommend one Kubrick movie, you simply *must* see _Dr. Strangelove, or How I Stopped Worrying and Learned to Love the Bomb[/b].  It is one of the keenest satires ever put on film, in my opinion--possibly the keenest.

"You can't fight in here!  This is the WAR ROOM!"

Daniel_


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## Tom Cashel (Mar 15, 2005)

mmadsen said:
			
		

> (Interestingly, the original British edition of the book does have a happy ending of sorts.  The 21st and final chapter has the protagonist grow out of his juvenile deliquency.)




Hoodlum/murderer/rapist grows up to be a police officer = happy ending?

Ironic, satirical, yes...but I wouldn't call it "happy" of any sort.

Great film, but the book by Anthony Burgess is simply amazing. Creates its very own language, some of which is used in the film.

As to whether you "should" see the film, I'd go with the advice about whether you're in the mood to be confronted by your entertainment. Are you ready to feel absolute disgust and revulsion for a character, and then feel sympathy for the same person when circumstances change?

EDIT: Oops! You saw it already!   

I'll concur that _Dr. Strangelove_ and _2001_ are also great films. Strangelove is one of my favorites ever. "I'll get those bomb-bay doors open if it hare-lips everybody in Bear Creek!"

Hey, for those of you who've seen 2001, 



Spoiler



any theories on what Kubrick was on about when he kept "The Blue Danube" waltz playing for about 10 min. after "THE END," with a black screen? My personal theory is that it dovetails with the film's themes: just as there is more than we know outside the boundaries of what we call "universe," there is more outside the boundaries of what we call "film." Unseeable perhaps, but there nonetheless. Whaddya think?


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## devilish (Mar 15, 2005)

Rumor has it .... (I think I saw it on IMDB but you can Google it as well)
that Anthony Burgess wrote A Clockwork Orange in response to his
wife getting beaten by 4 American GI's and losing their baby.

Burgess in a sense rewrote the incident from the hoodlum's perspective.  

Burgess also hated Kubrick's movie version of his story.


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## nothing to see here (Mar 15, 2005)

Gizzard said:
			
		

> I look at Clockwork Orange as just _showing_ you Alex.  "Here he is.  What are you going to do about him?"  I don't think Kubrick has a position or a solution to the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> Kubrick seemed pretty cynical about incarceration.  He seemed pretty cynical about everything that Alex tried out frankly.  (One of my favorite sequences is seeing what Alex learns from his brush with religion.)




I doubt any of us could deign speak for Kubrick's true intention...that's what pretentious film school instructors are for.  However, an oft-cited, if underdiscussed point of the film is that it's most powerful emotional release is also it's subtlest.  Alex, whom the entire first third of the film sets you up to hate...becomes an object of abject pity...actually a 'victim' when put into the hands of a purportedly well-intentioned state.  You spend the last third of the film feeling for the guy...only to be jarred in the last scene when it hits home...just who you've been sympathizing with.

A subtle yet strong anti-absolutist, and libertarian message, to be sure.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Mar 15, 2005)

Tom Cashel said:
			
		

> Hey, for those of you who've seen 2001,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I think you're onto something with that one. It would definitely fit Kubrick an the style of 2001.


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## Testament (Mar 17, 2005)

devilish said:
			
		

> <SNIP>Burgess also hated Kubrick's movie version of his story.




Largely because it's missing the 21st Chapter of the book, which was also cut from the first print run.  Does that chapter feel, I don't know, out of place?  Yes, and Kubrick, it would seem, agrees, hence its omission.

It does, however, complete the story, and for that alone, it should have been in there.  Without it, the film is even more shocking and repulsive, as "nothing to see here" said.  It changes the whole angle.


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## Viking Bastard (Mar 17, 2005)

As someone who hasn't read the book, what happened in chapter 21?


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## mmu1 (Mar 17, 2005)

Basically, Alex grows up. He gets a cushy government job in (IIRC) a music archive as compensation for what was done to him. 

He does try to do the whole gang thing on the side again, but this time around, he's much older than the other members -  what amuses them bores him, the way they throw around money annoys him (now that he actually works for a living - cushy job or not), and staying up all night when you actually have to show up for work the next day isn't quite as appealing.

A few things happen that reinforce his perception that what he's playing at is pointless, including a meeting with one of his old gang buddies, now happily married and very respectably middle-class - and he basically decides that he's done with the things he did as a kid, and it's time to move on. Very similar to the ending of _Trainspotting_ in some ways - "You think we're so different? Well, from now on, I'm going to be just like you. Job, wife, family. How do you like that?"


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## Viking Bastard (Mar 17, 2005)

How... disappointing.


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## mmu1 (Mar 17, 2005)

Viking Bastard said:
			
		

> How... disappointing.




BTW, here is the actual text if you want to take a look: http://www.visual-memory.co.uk/amk/doc/0062.html


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## Viking Bastard (Mar 18, 2005)

That's... still disappointing.


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## NiTessine (Mar 18, 2005)

Mark said:
			
		

> Careful.  Not a _first date_ movie, by any stretch of the imagination...




Oh, you think so? I rate it very highly as a first date movie, right after _Battle Royale_ and _The American Psycho_.


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## Phaedrus (Mar 18, 2005)

Clockwork Orange ruined Beethoven for me for almost an entire year. And that REALLY irritated me. I still can't listen to Singin' in the Rain.

That movie put scenes in my head I wish I could purge.  "Disturbing" is not a strong enough term.


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