# How Long for Frostbite to Set In?



## dreaded_beast

At this BBQ I went to, me and 2 other people decided to have this contest.

We each stuck one of our hands in a cooler full of ice, ice-water, and soda cans.

The game was to see who could last the longest.

After a 2-3 minutes, someone mentioned frostbite and me and the other guy got worried, so we pulled our hands out after 5 minutes.

The winner was the other person, who kept their hand in for 7 minutes.

My question is, how long would it take before frostbite would set in?

And yes, this is a DUMB game, so no need to reiterate it in the thread.


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## trancejeremy

Can you even get frostbite from ice water? I mean, my definition, it's water, and so probably close to 33 degrees.


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## dreaded_beast

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Can you even get frostbite from ice water? I mean, my definition, it's water, and so probably close to 33 degrees.



Hmm, I'm not sure, but I'm worried that there is probably some kind of detrimental effect from putting part of your body in icewater for an extended period of time.

When I couldn't feel my fingers, it started getting kinda scary, heh.


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## Dannyalcatraz

I got frostbitten toes and fingers in the 15-20 minutes it took me to walk home from my school bus stop in Manhattan, Kansas.  Some bullies had tossed my gloves out of the bus window.  Normally, the walk was only about 3 minutes, but the weather was so bad, I couldn't see, and the hilly sidewalk was slick with ice...it took me a couple of minutes to figure out I should be walking on the snow-covered lawns.

It was a freak blizzard, and -50F at the time.  I almost couldn't move by the time I made it to my front door.

I made a full recovery, but even today, I'm more sensitive to cold in my hands than any other part of my body.


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## Jdvn1

So, in a bucket of ice water, assuming it's possible to get frostbitten, it'd probably take way more than 20 minutes?


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## Dannyalcatraz

Yeah, pretty much.

Really, if you're talking about immersion in gold but liquid water, you're really talking about either hypothermia, or death by shock, but not frostbite.

With hypothermia, instead of damaging your extremities with intense cold, your body simply exhausts its energy reserves trying to heat the surrounding liquid to body temperature while simultaneously keeping your organs running.  Eventually, your organs are simply too cold to function properly, and you die.  This takes a while, depending upon the temperature of the liquid and the amount of it.  In relatively warm water- say 70 or so degrees, it could take days.  In the arctic, it would take 20 minutes, I'd guess.  (There is, however, a growing body of evidence about how people have been brought back after hypothermic events.)

With shock, the intense cold screws up your cardio-pulmonary system in seconds.  Your heart stops or you have a stroke, you die.

Oh yeah...IANAD!


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## Jesus_marley

Hypothermia will set in MUCH faster in water than in air of the same temperature. Full immersion in water at 1 degree Celsius will usually cause hypothermia within 5 minutes. ( I participated in a psychology study on pain using ice water immersion.... not fun).

As for frostbite, it is literally frozen body tissue. When the water in the cells freezes, it expands and also forms sharp crystals which ruptures the cell membrane, killing the cell. The longer the tissue is exposed to the freezing temperatures, the deeper the frostbite. Mild frostbite might result in the loss of some skin (which fortunately, will usually regenerate). More sever forms can result in the loss of extremities (fingers, toes, hands, feet, earlobes, nose, etc.)

Unless the tissue freezes, you won't get frostbite.

And just to save my ample butt..... IANAD!


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## Iku Rex

The most serious case of frostbite in my company when I was in the army was due to a private spending a day on the shooting range without his gloves/mittens on.  (I don't remember if he was sent home or not afterwards, but it wasn't all that bad.) IIRC it was actually _raining_ part of the day, so it must have been right around 0 degrees Celsius. In other words you don't need a lot of cold to cause damage. 

When it got really cold in the winter (-20F) we were told that removing our mittens could cause frostbite in a matter of minutes. Dannyalcatraz was lucky to get away with "cold sensitivity" after 15-20 minutes with bare hands in -50F, as a child, in a blizzard.   

(Good news Dannyalcatraz: You're most likely a high level character.  DnD rules for cold.)


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## Umbran

Jesus_marley has the right of it.

How long will it take for frostbite to set in?  Consider how long it'd take a similarly-sized hunk of meat to start freezing in the same environment.  That'll be a good first estimate.  If the environment won't freeze meat, it won't cause frostbite.  Not to say that it'll be healthy or comfortable, but it won't cause frostbite, specifically.


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## Thunderfoot

ACtually all of the above posts are slightly wrong, becuase the real answer is...it depends.
Depending upon the persons matabilitory rate, body fat, air tempurature, etc...  The sum of the variables are included to make the larger whole.  As stated, water versus air will change things, temperature variations etc.  Oh and frostbite has nothing to do with the temp being below freezing, though it is called frostbite, you can acutally begin freezing the extremities in temps as high as 45 degree Farenheit.

In your case though, frostbite was much less of a worry than immersion foot (or in this case hand).  It is a condition also known as trenchfoot (can you guess why).  The extremity is submerged or even damp and then exposed to extremely cold temps (below 50) for extended periods of time (usually in excess of an hour, but can be considerably less do to other factos).  BTW my info comes from many hours spent in the military and the yearly "winterization" lecture that we had so that we wouldn't be pulled from the fight for stupid preventable health conditions.  This had been a public service announcement 

BTW, considering the time, you are probably fine.


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## Umbran

Thunderfoot said:
			
		

> ACtually all of the above posts are slightly wrong, becuase the real answer is...it depends.




All of those who don't also amount to "that depends" at least.  Which a couple do. 



> In your case though, frostbite was much less of a worry than immersion foot (or in this case hand).  It is a condition also known as trenchfoot (can you guess why).  The extremity is submerged or even damp and then exposed to extremely cold temps (below 50) for extended periods of time (usually in excess of an hour, but can be considerably less do to other factos).




Two inaccuracies - 

1)Cold and damp is often not sufficient.  Trenchfoot generally also requires constriction of the extremety - like being in a combat boot.  If the extremety is not constricted, it takes a lot longer for the condition to develop.  

2)Trenchfoot does not require "extreme" cold - it can happen in conditions up to 60 degrees Farenheight.  It was fairly common in Vietnam, which has winter average temperatures in the high 50s.


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## Pbartender

Actually, you can technically get frostbite without actually freezing the tissue, though thoroughly frozen tissue is the norm...



> *Frostbite* (congelatio in medical terminology) is the medical condition whereby damage is caused to skin and other tissues due to extreme cold. At or below 15° C (59° F), blood vessels close to the skin start to narrow (constrict). This helps to preserve core body temperature. In extreme cold or when the body is exposed to cold for long periods, this protective strategy can reduce blood flow in some areas of the body to dangerously low levels. The combination of cold temperature and poor blood flow can cause tissue injury. Frostbite is most likely to happen in body parts farthest from the heart, and those with a lot of surface area exposed to cold. These areas include the toes, fingers, ears and nose. It is related, but not identical, to hypothermia.




That's why in minor cases of frostbite, the affected areas can be carefully thawed out and revived without much permanent damage...  the flesh is not necessarily completely frozen.  

In the cases where the flesh is actually frozen through, it remains dead flesh upon thawing, and must be removed lest gangrene set in...  Those are the instances in which fingers, toes and ears are amputated.


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## Thunderfoot

Umbran said:
			
		

> <SNIP>
> 2)Trenchfoot does not require "extreme" cold - it can happen in conditions up to 60 degrees Farenheight.  It was fairly common in Vietnam, which has winter average temperatures in the high 50s.



Actually I believe I said below 50.  (although 60 is rare I can give you that one.  )
In Vietnam the average was in the 50's, meaning the mean was lower.  Constriction does cause it to onset much quicker, true, but there are always exceptions.  Frankly, the temp and exposure in this case was so slight, that only other mitigating factors would cause any cold-weather injury (trenchfoot, frostbite, hypothermia or chillblain.).

But thanks for the corrections, I always appreciate the help.


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## Thunderfoot

Pbartender said:
			
		

> <SNIP>
> In the cases where the flesh is actually frozen through, it remains dead flesh upon thawing, and must be removed lest gangrene set in...  Those are the instances in which fingers, toes and ears are amputated.



Usually in those cases, the skin turns black and waxy and is easily recognizeable. (though this isn't always the case.)  In cases where the skin is blue tinged, professional medical care should be sought, becuase it can go either way.


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