# Optimizing Tempest Cleric



## HermanTheWize

There character is already made; but this is mostly for what feats/asi I should take at level 4.


*Details:*

I'm pretty much the tank(there is a monk that fights beside me) - IE why I am Hill Dwarf(+1 HP) and 16 Con
I keep bless up
I defiantly want to have some strong spells ready to burst if needed
Shield and Warhammer + Heavy Armor

*Party:
*

Tempest Cleric(Me)
Lore Wizard(CC Heavy and burst when needed)
Elemental Monk
Unknown(Last player is joining next week.

*
Stats/Race:*

Hill Dwarf(30 Point Buy):
Str 14
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 8
Wis 16
Cha 8



Options for level 4 I was thinking:


+2 Con
Warcaster
Magic Initiate: Shillelagh + Level 1 Druid Spell
Lucky


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## MatsuKurisu

Resilient Con would be better than +2Con for the purpose of Concntration checks.
These become more and more important as you level up


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## UngeheuerLich

I think you can do better with a 30 point buy.
 Dexterity is quite unimportant. I am not sure if shilelagh is a good idea. If you don't increase wis, you can as well increase str and use better weapons than a club or quarterstaff.

So:
15 Str
11 Dex
17 Con
8 Int
16 Wis
8 Cha

This opens up +1 str +1 con or resilient con at level 4. And at level 8 you can either take warcaster or +1 str and +1 dex depending on your previous choice.


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## Volund

MatsuKurisu said:


> Resilient Con would be better than +2Con for the purpose of Concntration checks.
> These become more and more important as you level up



I second Resilient (Con) if you plan to tank. At 5th level you will get Spirit Guardians which is good for tanking, and it's a concentration spell. Great choice for a character. My 10th level tempest cleric went straight to 20 Wis and not having Resilient (Con) or War Caster is starting to become an issue, and I have other fighter types in the party. If you're the tank, I recommend you do everything you can to help your concentration checks.


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## HermanTheWize

So you guys think resilent con over war caster? We only had 1 really short session, I could easily change my con to set it up for resilient con next level

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## Volund

HermanTheWize said:


> So you guys think resilent con over war caster? We only had 1 really short session, I could easily change my con to set it up for resilient con next level




Your call. Might be a YMMV situation that depends on your party and campaign. I would go Resilient (Con) first because while both will help your concentration checks, War Caster doesn't help you when you hear the Banshee's wail, look into the eyes of the Basilisk, or feel the gentle caress of the Wraith.


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## HermanTheWize

It seems like a cleric with shield being the focus doesn't need war caster as much as other classes.

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## RulesJD

1.  Dump Dexterity and some Con

2.  Get Charisma up to 13/14

3.  Past level 6 for Tempest, multiclass into Sorcerer.  Use _Booming Blade_ as your standard damage (or _Shocking Grasp_ if you need some room), upcast _Chromatic Orb _against single targets (max damage = bye bye) and later _Lightning Bolt_.  

Played that build up to level 14 and absolutely dominated.  Spirit Guardians gives you some of the best AoE in the game, while upcast CO or LB some of the best single target.


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## HermanTheWize

RulesJD said:


> 1.  Dump Dexterity and some Con
> 
> 2.  Get Charisma up to 13/14
> 
> 3.  Past level 6 for Tempest, multiclass into Sorcerer.  Use _Booming Blade_ as your standard damage (or _Shocking Grasp_ if you need some room), upcast _Chromatic Orb _against single targets (max damage = bye bye) and later _Lightning Bolt_.
> 
> Played that build up to level 14 and absolutely dominated.  Spirit Guardians gives you some of the best AoE in the game, while upcast CO or LB some of the best single target.




Interesting


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## HermanTheWize

To me for this character, this most important thing is to be hard to kill.

*Things I want for sure:*


Resilient Con
---------- Thanks Bid...no resilent dex
18 - 20 Con

*Things I may Get:*

Tough
Alert
Shield Master
Dwarf Resilience
 18 or 20 Wisdom
Heavy Armor Master(If 15 Str starting)


Other than those 3 things, what do you guys think i Should make sure I get to be as unkillable as possible


My two stat lay out options are the following. pick one and tell me what feats/ASIs you would take and at what level.

Str 14
Dex 13
Con 17
Int 8
Wis 16
Cha 8


Str 15
Dex 11
Con 17
Int 8
Wis 16
Cha 8


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## bid

HermanTheWize said:


> Resilient Con
> Resilient Dex



Pick one, you can't have both.


About the "unkillable" bit: remember there's no aggro.
If you are too hard to kill but don't do any damage, smart foes will ignore you until the rest of the party is down.


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## HermanTheWize

bid said:


> Pick one, you can't have both.




What do you mean?


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## bid

HermanTheWize said:


> What do you mean?



Feats p 165, 2nd para, last sentence: "each feat only once"

And notice elemental adept last para.


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## HermanTheWize

bid said:


> Feats p 165, 2nd para, last sentence: "each feat only once"
> 
> And notice elemental adept last para.




 I see...I always assumed they counted a different feats...yeah, that's how it reads


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## HermanTheWize

Maybe I should take shield master in it's place then?


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## HermanTheWize

I was originally picking resilient con to kill 2 birds with one stone(concentration checks and extra HP)....

I wonder if it's more worth it to keep the lower dex and rely on bless to get me through(you only really save for half anyway) and go resilent con still. OR just get warcaster to fill that gap





And I think you're right about to low damage...but I will almost always have a concentration spell up.



Hrmmm....

Hard choices now.


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## Volund

HermanTheWize said:


> To me for this character, this most important thing is to be hard to kill.
> 
> *Things I want for sure:*
> 
> 
> Resilient Con
> Resilient Dex
> 18 - 20 Con




Unless your DM rules otherwise, by RAW you can only take Resilient once. _You can take each feat only once, unless the feat's description says otherwise. PHB 165_ For an example of one that says otherwise, see the Elemental Adept feat. 

I would pick your second block, 15/11/17/8/16/8, because you will be able to wear splint or plate without putting any more ASI/feats into that stat when you really should be improving Wis and Con instead. At 4th I'd take Resilient (Con) and not worry about Con again until I had used my 8th and 12th level ASI's to push Wis to 20. So many things key off your Wisdom: number of spells prepared, spell DC, spell attacks, extra hp from healing spells, Wrath of the Storm, Perception. If your game ever gets to a level 16 ASI then you'll do whatever makes sense for your character but I bet by then you won't be as interested in Heavy Armor Master. 

I don't think you should be especially concerned about killproofing your cleric with stats and feats. Even with good stats, over time you will still fail a good share of saving throws. Based on my experience running my tempest cleric almost up to 11th level, the spells and tactics my party used were a lot more important than my stats. At higher levels I started failing saves a lot and got some good advice here. At 5th level your wizard can get Counterspell. It's wonderful for negating spells, especially when the enemy caster has better initiative and is going to drop AoE on your whole party before anyone has a chance to act. At 7th level you will get Banish. Sanctuary helps you maintain concentration when it really counts because you get hit less often. Once we got rolling with these spells our own saving throws became less of an issue. Here is a typical tactic I use: Rnd 1 cast banish on anyone who looks like a caster (at lower levels you could just cast Bless instead). Rnd 2 Dodge and use bonus action to cast Sanctuary on myself. With the caster banished, the grunts have to make a DC 17 Wis save to even attack me, if they make the save they have to hit AC 20 at disadvantage, and if they do hit me I'm better than 50/50 to make my concentration save. If I want to focus on damage, Rnd 1 cast Spirit Guardians, Rnd 2 Dodge and cast Spiritual Weapon. I'm damaging and slowing everyone around me, attacks against me are at disadvantage, if I'm hit I use my reaction for Wrath of the Storm, and I'm attacking specific targets with my bonus action Spiritual Weapon. Bottom line: no matter what your stats are, if you're trying to keep a concentration spell going, you don't want to get hit because eventually you will drop your concentration from a bad roll. There is only so much you can do on your own, so other PC's need to do their part to help you avoid taking damage.


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## HermanTheWize

I'm a hill dwarf, so I don't need 15 strength for heavy armor...so I'm ok with dropping the strength to 14 in that case

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## Volund

HermanTheWize said:


> I'm a hill dwarf, so I don't need 15 strength for heavy armor...so I'm ok with dropping the strength to 14 in that case




Oh, you can wear heavy armor regardless of your strength so long as you are proficient in it, and tempest cleric gives you proficiency, so no problem there. The issue is whether your movement will drop from 25 feet to 15 feet by not meeting the minimum strength requirements for the armor. see PHB 144. BTW hill dwarves don't get _Dwarven Armor Training_, they get _Dwarven Toughness_ for the extra hp. It's the mountain dwarves who start with light and medium armor proficiency.


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## HermanTheWize

Volund said:


> Oh, you can wear heavy armor regardless of your strength so long as you are proficient in it, and tempest cleric gives you proficiency, so no problem there. The issue is whether your movement will drop from 25 feet to 15 feet by not meeting the minimum strength requirements for the armor. see PHB 144. BTW hill dwarves don't get _Dwarven Armor Training_, they get _Dwarven Toughness_ for the extra hp. It's the mountain dwarves who start with light and medium armor proficiency.



I believe all dwarves get the non speed reduction

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## HermanTheWize

"Your speed is not reduced by wearing heavy armor"

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## Volund

HermanTheWize said:


> I believe all dwarves get the non speed reduction




Duh. Of course. Well in that case why even keep it at 14? Drop it to 10 (it's always good to be able to jump across a 10 foot pit) and raise your Dex instead. If you are using a shield and a one handed weapon you can attack just as well and do the same damage with a rapier, and your Dex saves and initiative will be better.


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## HermanTheWize

Volund said:


> Duh. Of course. Well in that case why even keep it at 14? Drop it to 10 (it's always good to be able to jump across a 10 foot pit) and raise your Dex instead. If you are using a shield and a one handed weapon you can attack just as well and do the same damage with a rapier, and your Dex saves and initiative will be better.



Hrm.....lol I may haha

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## smbakeresq

Not optimal but I did have a dwarf tempest cleric who with magic initiate took booming blade and green flame blade (reskinned to lightning damage with DM) to fill out the theme.  At 8th level your melee will then deal d8 (wpn)+d8(tempest) + d8 (cantrip) and then 2d8 if the creature moves or d8+ability to another creature.   At 14th level it goes up to d8 (wpn) + 2d8 (thunder - tempest) + 2d8 (thunder or lightning- cantrip) + 3d8 (if it moves or to creature next to it.)  Its sort of a one-trick pony of thunder and lightning damage but it was fun to play and you get a lot of dice on the table.

Since so many things key off of DEX if you don't key off of it your DM will see that and work with you.


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## HermanTheWize

smbakeresq said:


> Not optimal but I did have a dwarf tempest cleric who with magic initiate took booming blade and green flame blade (reskinned to lightning damage with DM) to fill out the theme.  At 8th level your melee will then deal d8 (wpn)+d8(tempest) + d8 (cantrip) and then 2d8 if the creature moves or d8+ability to another creature.   At 14th level it goes up to d8 (wpn) + 2d8 (thunder - tempest) + 2d8 (thunder or lightning- cantrip) + 3d8 (if it moves or to creature next to it.)  Its sort of a one-trick pony of thunder and lightning damage but it was fun to play and you get a lot of dice on the table.
> 
> Since so many things key off of DEX if you don't key off of it your DM will see that and work with you.



So I talked to my DM and he said it was fine for me to just take booming blade as a cantrip, since it fit thematically.

So Warcaster is sounding better and better

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## smbakeresq

HermanTheWize said:


> So I talked to my DM and he said it was fine for me to just take booming blade as a cantrip, since it fit thematically.
> 
> So Warcaster is sounding better and better
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using EN World mobile app




Told you.  DM love people who get serious about a theme and then follow through.  After I saw an old NPC from Greyhawk I played a 5 int, 17 wis Paladin, just dumb as rocks but a great moral compass.   At table just gave simple commands, direct obvious tactical advice with the complete inability to figure most things out.  DM gave me enough rope to really hang the group.


Your PC is really filling out.   For the Thunderwave make sure you tell them you are smashing the ground with your hammer or the handle of the maul.  Though shall get pushed!

Ask the wizard to create that bonfire to push them into!


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## smbakeresq

Warcaster is great just for the first  sentence combined with Bless.  The rest is gravy and let's you wield a 2 handed weapon, put that d12 to use.  

For the third part of warcaster you can use booming blade now as an OA, so once you drop that a few times your DM just won't move away from you anymore. 


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## HermanTheWize

I'm probably gonna still be going sword and board. I'm pretty much the main tank and support

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## smbakeresq

HermanTheWize said:


> I'm probably gonna still be going sword and board. I'm pretty much the main tank and support
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using EN World mobile app




Great, you can use your shield as your holy symbol, which I assume is a lightning bolt on the front of the shield.  If you can fit it in Shield master is a pretty good feat, +2 to a lot of saves and a bonus action shove.


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## Mistwell

I liked my post in this thread enough that I figured it would be helpful to post it over here where people actually looking for Tempest Cleric information might actually find it.



Donnor80 said:


> A wave of thunderous force sweeps out from you. Each creature in a 15-foot cube originating from you must make a Constitution saving throw. That is a level one spell. You don't choose it's location man. This community is hell bent on arguments, huh?




The error you've made here is completely understandable. I can definitely see, just reading the sentence in the spell, that you think it ordinates from you and spreads around you.  However, that is not how the spell works.  You have to refer to the Player's Handbook, page 204, the section titled "Areas of Effect". 

There you will find the entry for Cube. That entry says, "*You select a cube’s point of origin, which lies anywhere on a face of the cubic effect*. The cube’s size is expressed as the length of each side. A cube’s point of origin is not included in the cube’s area of effect, unless you decide otherwise."

So you know it has to be a cube, and it must originate from the caster, and the origination point must lie somewhere on a face of the cubic effect. So the caster must be in a space adjacent to a face of the cube to serve as the origination point and it spreads into a cube from that point.

Here are some legal options for that (the caster is the asterisk):













Again, I can definitely see why you read it the way you did. But, it doesn't quite work that way. Perhaps it's not very intuitive the way they wrote it.

And, as a "Damage Type: Thunder" spell, as a Tempest Domain cleric starting at 2nd level when you roll lightning or *thunder* damage, you can use your Channel Divinity to deal maximum damage, instead of rolling. Which has several advantages. First, since Thunderwave auto-hits (though the target gets a saving throw for half damage) you can use this ability on ALL castings of Thunderwave, as long as you do any damage at all. Second, the spell scales. So it does  2d8 at first level, and then an additional 1d8 for each spell slot used after first. So if you use a 3rd level spell slot, it does 4d8 (save for half). If you burn a Channel Divinity use with a casting, that spell does 32 hit points damage and pushes foes 10 feet (or 16 damage on a save). Now compare that to an average fireball, which is 8d6 (save for half) or 28 average damage (or 14 on a save).

That's a pretty sweet deal for the Cleric - who isn't a fireball type caster, and isn't typically using area effect spells to begin with. They're doing more damage on average to each target, and though it's a smaller area of effect, it also pushes targets who miss their saves (and the save is a Con save, which is less common than the dexterity save of fireball). 

And then you have Shatter spell, which does 4d8 thunder damage as a 3rd level spell, which maximizes to 32, or 16 on a save, with a 20 foot diameter sphere and can be cast anywhere in 60 feet of you.

And then Call Lightening, which can be truly devastating, and last a long time. Cast that sucker during an existing storm and you're maximizing 4d10 as a 3rd level spell every round for up to 10 minutes! 

And you get Glyph of Warding, which is Thunder or Lightening Damage, either of which you could maximize. Or you could just store a Thunderwave in it and maximize that. Either way, carry a few blank 10' cube flags with you, cast it during your short or long rests on the flag, and make the trigger "an evil creature comes within 5 feet". Now all you need to do is toss that sucker down and you've blocked an entire 10' wide hallway which does 5d8 thunder (or half on a save) in a 40' diameter sphere (which is friggen huge) which you can maximize to 40 damage (or 20 on a save). That's like a fireball cast in a 7th level spell slot (and it's also similar to delayed fireball) from a 3rd level spell slot!

You can even use this ability with one of your other Tempest Domain abilities. Wrath of the Storm, an ability you get at first level, let's you use your reaction to do thunder damage to a creature in melee range that hits you (2d8 thunder damage, or half on save).  You can use that same Destructive Wrath ability to Channel Divinity and "When you roll lightning or thunder damage, you can use your Channel Divinity to deal maximum damage, instead of rolling." So you can automatically do 16 thunder damage, or 8 on a save, to a creature that hits you, as a reaction (and reactions are rare for a cleric). 

Your 8th level ability Divine Strike also let's you do Thunder damage (1d8 or 2d8 depending on your level) which you could also auto-max with a use of Channel Divinity.

You can also pick up the Magic Initiate feat and grab cantrips like Lightning Lure (which lets you pull a creature 10 feet toward you, then do 1d8 lightning damage to it or 2d8 at fifth level, which you could choose to maximize, and then your 6th level Thunderbolt Strike ability lets you push them back 10 feet again. And boy, if the wizard cast a wall of fire or something else nasty in that area you've pulled and pushed them back through, look out!).  Shocking Grasp, Booming Blade, and Thunderclap are all also good choices for those two cantrips you'd get. Chromatic Orb, Thunderous Smite, and Witch Bolt would all be good choices for the 1st level spell you'd get. 

And unlike the "save for half" issue with many of the spells i've mentioned, if it triggers on a hit like it does with things like Booming Blade, you can choose to use the ability or not, so you'd only use it when it's most effective.

You don't even need the feat though. You could pick up one of those cantrips, like Booming Blade, by just being a High Elf.

Speaking of races, you could choose a lightning type for Dragonborn and get a breath weapon you could maximize. 

Note also the two domain abilities we're talking about most here are not specific to CLERIC spells or damage of a thunder or lightning nature. It's ANY damage you do of those types:

"Destructive Wrath: When you roll lightning or thunder damage, you can use your Channel Divinity to deal maximum damage, instead of rolling."

"Thunderbolt Strike: When you deal lightning damage to a Large or smaller creature, you can also push it up to 10 feet away from you."

Which means you can gain one or both of these abilities and multiclass and use those abilities with the multiclass spells and abilities you gain which does lightning damage.  You could do 320 damage with chain lighting (split between four creatures) for example (and knock them all back 10 feet)! A single lightning bolt is doing almost 50 damage to each creature in a line as a 3rd level spell (more at high spell slots). Chromatic Orb seems a good choice as well (and I think you could twin that as a sorcerer, while maximizing it with your cleric ability?). There are some REALLY devastating potential multiclass options there. I've seen Storm Sorcerer is a popular multiclass choice for a Tempest Cleric, due to the consistent theme. A Dragonborn (Bronze) Tempest Cleric/Storm Sorcerer wearing plate armor and shield and wielding a warhammer and specializing in Thunder and Lightning spells would be rather thematic and potent!

And if you find a magic weapon which also does lightning damage (like a Javelin of lightning, Seeker Dart, Staff of Thunder and Lightning, or Windvane)? Oof, knock foes back 10 feet on every hit baby!

The sub-class has a lot of synergy in it with that Channel Divinity ability. Being able to maximize damage as a non-sorcerer is pretty special.


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## smbakeresq

I would also add that a origin point is the cubic face behind you, so you would lie in the effect but so would the 2 squares directly adjacent to you.  


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## Cognomen's Cassowary

Wait, if you caught yourself in a thunderwave and had to move ten feet away from yourself . . . where would you go?


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## smbakeresq

Cognomen's Cassowary said:


> Wait, if you caught yourself in a thunderwave and had to move ten feet away from yourself . . . where would you go?




The direction away from the face you started it on.  


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## bid

smbakeresq said:


> I would also add that a origin point is the cubic face behind you, so you would lie in the effect but so would the 2 squares directly adjacent to you.



That's not how it works. 
There are no "cubic face behind you". You are on the face of the cube.

You can still include the point of origin (you) in the area effect, but this has no impact on whether the person to your right and the person to your left are affected.


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## smbakeresq

bid said:


> That's not how it works.
> There are no "cubic face behind you". You are on the face of the cube.
> 
> You can still include the point of origin (you) in the area effect, but this has no impact on whether the person to your right and the person to your left are affected.




Yes there is. 

C u b e
You select a cube’s point of origin, which lies anywhere on a face of the cubic effect. The cube’s size is expressed as the length of each side.  A cube’s point of origin is not included in the cube’s area of effect, unless you decide otherwise.


 I cant draw the picture, but as example you are facing North.  Choose the cubic face south of you, making the effect go North.  The 15' cube is 3 squares on a side, so you are in the middle square of the effect, the squares to your east and west are in the effect, then the squares 10' in front of you facing North.  In a 3x3 box you are in the middle square on one face in the effect.

Maybe this is better

 xxx
                             xxx
                             xcx

As far as I know that's a valid configuration.  You are subject to the effect.


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## smbakeresq

Mistwell said:


> I liked my post in this thread enough that I figured it would be helpful to post it over here where people actually looking for Tempest Cleric information might actually find it.
> 
> 
> 
> The error you've made here is completely understandable. I can definitely see, just reading the sentence in the spell, that you think it ordinates from you and spreads around you.  However, that is not how the spell works.  You have to refer to the Player's Handbook, page 204, the section titled "Areas of Effect".
> 
> There you will find the entry for Cube. That entry says, "*You select a cube’s point of origin, which lies anywhere on a face of the cubic effect*. The cube’s size is expressed as the length of each side. A cube’s point of origin is not included in the cube’s area of effect, unless you decide otherwise."
> 
> So you know it has to be a cube, and it must originate from the caster, and the origination point must lie somewhere on a face of the cubic effect. So the caster must be in a space adjacent to a face of the cube to serve as the origination point and it spreads into a cube from that point.
> 
> Here are some legal options for that (the caster is the asterisk):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I can definitely see why you read it the way you did. But, it doesn't quite work that way. Perhaps it's not very intuitive the way they wrote it.
> 
> And, as a "Damage Type: Thunder" spell, as a Tempest Domain cleric starting at 2nd level when you roll lightning or *thunder* damage, you can use your Channel Divinity to deal maximum damage, instead of rolling. Which has several advantages. First, since Thunderwave auto-hits (though the target gets a saving throw for half damage) you can use this ability on ALL castings of Thunderwave, as long as you do any damage at all. Second, the spell scales. So it does  2d8 at first level, and then an additional 1d8 for each spell slot used after first. So if you use a 3rd level spell slot, it does 4d8 (save for half). If you burn a Channel Divinity use with a casting, that spell does 32 hit points damage and pushes foes 10 feet (or 16 damage on a save). Now compare that to an average fireball, which is 8d6 (save for half) or 28 average damage (or 14 on a save).
> 
> That's a pretty sweet deal for the Cleric - who isn't a fireball type caster, and isn't typically using area effect spells to begin with. They're doing more damage on average to each target, and though it's a smaller area of effect, it also pushes targets who miss their saves (and the save is a Con save, which is less common than the dexterity save of fireball).
> 
> And then you have Shatter spell, which does 4d8 thunder damage as a 3rd level spell, which maximizes to 32, or 16 on a save, with a 20 foot diameter sphere and can be cast anywhere in 60 feet of you.
> 
> And then Call Lightening, which can be truly devastating, and last a long time. Cast that sucker during an existing storm and you're maximizing 4d10 as a 3rd level spell every round for up to 10 minutes!
> 
> And you get Glyph of Warding, which is Thunder or Lightening Damage, either of which you could maximize. Or you could just store a Thunderwave in it and maximize that. Either way, carry a few blank 10' cube flags with you, cast it during your short or long rests on the flag, and make the trigger "an evil creature comes within 5 feet". Now all you need to do is toss that sucker down and you've blocked an entire 10' wide hallway which does 5d8 thunder (or half on a save) in a 40' diameter sphere (which is friggen huge) which you can maximize to 40 damage (or 20 on a save). That's like a fireball cast in a 7th level spell slot (and it's also similar to delayed fireball) from a 3rd level spell slot!
> 
> You can even use this ability with one of your other Tempest Domain abilities. Wrath of the Storm, an ability you get at first level, let's you use your reaction to do thunder damage to a creature in melee range that hits you (2d8 thunder damage, or half on save).  You can use that same Destructive Wrath ability to Channel Divinity and "When you roll lightning or thunder damage, you can use your Channel Divinity to deal maximum damage, instead of rolling." So you can automatically do 16 thunder damage, or 8 on a save, to a creature that hits you, as a reaction (and reactions are rare for a cleric).
> 
> Your 8th level ability Divine Strike also let's you do Thunder damage (1d8 or 2d8 depending on your level) which you could also auto-max with a use of Channel Divinity.
> 
> You can also pick up the Magic Initiate feat and grab cantrips like Lightning Lure (which lets you pull a creature 10 feet toward you, then do 1d8 lightning damage to it or 2d8 at fifth level, which you could choose to maximize, and then your 6th level Thunderbolt Strike ability lets you push them back 10 feet again. And boy, if the wizard cast a wall of fire or something else nasty in that area you've pulled and pushed them back through, look out!).  Shocking Grasp, Booming Blade, and Thunderclap are all also good choices for those two cantrips you'd get. Chromatic Orb, Thunderous Smite, and Witch Bolt would all be good choices for the 1st level spell you'd get.
> 
> And unlike the "save for half" issue with many of the spells i've mentioned, if it triggers on a hit like it does with things like Booming Blade, you can choose to use the ability or not, so you'd only use it when it's most effective.
> 
> You don't even need the feat though. You could pick up one of those cantrips, like Booming Blade, by just being a High Elf.
> 
> Speaking of races, you could choose a lightning type for Dragonborn and get a breath weapon you could maximize.
> 
> Note also the two domain abilities we're talking about most here are not specific to CLERIC spells or damage of a thunder or lightning nature. It's ANY damage you do of those types:
> 
> "Destructive Wrath: When you roll lightning or thunder damage, you can use your Channel Divinity to deal maximum damage, instead of rolling."
> 
> "Thunderbolt Strike: When you deal lightning damage to a Large or smaller creature, you can also push it up to 10 feet away from you."
> 
> Which means you can gain one or both of these abilities and multiclass and use those abilities with the multiclass spells and abilities you gain which does lightning damage.  You could do 320 damage with chain lighting (split between four creatures) for example (and knock them all back 10 feet)! A single lightning bolt is doing almost 50 damage to each creature in a line as a 3rd level spell (more at high spell slots). Chromatic Orb seems a good choice as well (and I think you could twin that as a sorcerer, while maximizing it with your cleric ability?). There are some REALLY devastating potential multiclass options there. I've seen Storm Sorcerer is a popular multiclass choice for a Tempest Cleric, due to the consistent theme. A Dragonborn (Bronze) Tempest Cleric/Storm Sorcerer wearing plate armor and shield and wielding a warhammer and specializing in Thunder and Lightning spells would be rather thematic and potent!
> 
> And if you find a magic weapon which also does lightning damage (like a Javelin of lightning, Seeker Dart, Staff of Thunder and Lightning, or Windvane)? Oof, knock foes back 10 feet on every hit baby!
> 
> The sub-class has a lot of synergy in it with that Channel Divinity ability. Being able to maximize damage as a non-sorcerer is pretty special.




Mistwell how do you read the effect for Thunderwave?  Using your picture on the left, I think you can start the Wave behind you, i.e. move the asterisk 1 square up so you are in the area of effect.


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## bid

smbakeresq said:


> Yes there is.
> 
> C u b e
> You select a cube’s point of origin, which lies anywhere on a face of the cubic effect. The cube’s size is expressed as the length of each side.  A cube’s point of origin is not included in the cube’s area of effect, unless you decide otherwise.
> 
> 
> I cant draw the picture, but as example you are facing North.  Choose the cubic face south of you, making the effect go North.  The 15' cube is 3 squares on a side, so you are in the middle square of the effect, the squares to your east and west are in the effect, then the squares 10' in front of you facing North.  In a 3x3 box you are in the middle square on one face in the effect.
> 
> Maybe this is better
> 
> xxx
> xxx
> xcx
> 
> As far as I know that's a valid configuration.  You are subject to the effect.



You start with the idea that you are on a 5' grid and the cube follows the grid, putting you 2.5 feet inside it. This is not possible as *you* are the cube's point of origin, not the grid.


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## Mistwell

smbakeresq said:


> Mistwell how do you read the effect for Thunderwave?  Using your picture on the left, I think you can start the Wave behind you, i.e. move the asterisk 1 square up so you are in the area of effect.




Yes I agree. As long as you are adjacent (able to touch) to the point where it starts, and as long as the point where it starts is on a face of the cube, you can cast that cube anywhere around you. Including with you in it. Visually speaking I am not sure what that looks like. How would you describe a spell fanning out front in front of you and back around you? Just like that I guess?


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## smbakeresq

bid said:


> You start with the idea that you are on a 5' grid and the cube follows the grid, putting you 2.5 feet inside it. This is not possible as *you* are the cube's point of origin, not the grid.




"You" are not the point of origin, don't read that much into the text.  It doesn't literally mean you are the point or origin, your entire square is.  The shape is a cube, and from the PHB:

_C u b e
You select a cube’s point of origin, which lies anywhere on a face of the cubic effect. The cube’s size is expressed as the length of each side. A cube’s point of origin is not included in the cube’s area of effect, unless you decide otherwise._

So you pick one face of the cube to start the effect from, which must be one of the faces of the square you are in as range is "self." So you have 4 choices, although I would let you pick a corner on a grid to keep it simpler.   So you can pick the face "behind" you, so you can get the squares next to you.


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## smbakeresq

Mistwell said:


> Yes I agree. As long as you are adjacent (able to touch) to the point where it starts, and as long as the point where it starts is on a face of the cube, you can cast that cube anywhere around you. Including with you in it. Visually speaking I am not sure what that looks like. How would you describe a spell fanning out front in front of you and back around you? Just like that I guess?




Like this, with you being the C and the x's being the effect.

xxx
xxx
xCx

So you can get the squares next to you.


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## smbakeresq

bid said:


> That's not how it works.
> There are no "cubic face behind you". You are on the face of the cube.
> 
> You can still include the point of origin (you) in the area effect, but this has no impact on whether the person to your right and the person to your left are affected.




As a side note, you are never on the face of the of the square or cubic space you are in.  You are always in the center, but you are considered to occupy the whole space. Effects that originate from you are considered from the cube you are in, so you get the full effect in squares or feet, you don't get shortchanged 2.5 feet to get out of your square.  Its just a convention for the game.


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## bid

smbakeresq said:


> As a side note, you are never on the face of the of the square or cubic space you are in.  You are always in the center, but you are considered to occupy the whole space. Effects that originate from you are considered from the cube you are in, so you get the full effect in squares or feet, you don't get shortchanged 2.5 feet to get out of your square.  Its just a convention for the game.



So you are saying "you" as a point of origin is anywhere within 2.5 feet of you, anywhere in the same grid square.

I don't know if the DMG has grid rules, but it seems a consistent ruling at worst.


Still, even if you start it behind you... you can still be out of the effect if you don't include the "point of origin - you". And if you include it, you would be pushed forward since the "point of origin" is behind you.


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## smbakeresq

Its always been that way.  Don't over-read the word "you" in the text.  It doesn't literally mean you to measure with, its the square you are in.

The DMG does have grid rules, and you are always considered occupying the square you are in, all of it.  You cant hide behind one part of the square that has an obstacle, it just gives you some cover

You also have to think in three dimensions.  The Thunderwave is a 15' cube, its 15' tall also.  However, a 6' tall PC occupies TWO 5' cubes, one stacked on top of each other.  So you can start the Thunderwave 5'+ in the air, so your Halfling friend can be underneath it.


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