# Free Keep on the Shadowfell at Wizards.com



## Hellzon (Apr 29, 2009)

Here. They're releasing KOTS and the Quick Start Rules and calling it a "test drive". Nifty.

No big poster map, of course, but I peeked inside and the first and final encounters are in. Looks like it's complete.

Ninja edit: I can't believe I'm not scooped. Or am I?


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## Hawke (Apr 29, 2009)

Hellzon said:


> Here. They're releasing KOTS and the Quick Start Rules and calling it a "test drive". Nifty.
> 
> No big poster map, of course, but I peeked inside and the first and final encounters are in. Looks like it's complete.
> 
> Ninja edit: I can't believe I'm not scooped. Or am I?




Cool move! I've got a player DMing for the first time running the Orc delve... it looks like that'll bring 2 new players in addition to a new DM to the game if it goes well. 

Though I was just about to put my copy of KotS on ebay


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## hvg3akaek (Apr 29, 2009)

What is also interesting is that it has been updated!  Anyone running the game needs to get this (a little annoying for those who purchased it in paper-form).

So far, I have noticed (*SPOILERS!*):


A4 (Burial site) - baddies have been reworked (Halfling skinger replaced with "Kalarel’s Spectral Apparition").
Area 8 (Sir Keegan's Tomb) - Keegan's stats have been reworked, and a proper skill challenge has been added.
Area 16 (Chamber of Statues) - Traps have been reworked, and confusion with the water-statue-walls trap has been clarified.
Area 19 (The Shadow Rift) - skeletons have been replaced with minions, skill challenge added, "The Thing in the Portal" has become a proper trap / hazard, instead of a creature (as well as its zone now marked on map)
There might be more, this is what I found in my brief skim through.

There has also been minor editing done elsewhere, specifically with the colours of "read aloud" text; a few DCs have been dropped (The Water Cave perception DC20 => DC10 to notice water movement); and a few descriptive text blocks have been reworded (eg area 18: cathedral of shadow)


Shame there's no bookmarks, but I can fix that shortly!


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## Mark (Apr 29, 2009)

Hawke said:


> Though I was just about to put my copy of KotS on ebay





Do so and add a link from this thread.  Some people will want both the PDF and a hardcopy.  You'll be doing the community a favor and helping yourself.


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## fba827 (Apr 29, 2009)

Well I don't (personally) find KotS to be an exceptionally great adventure, I think it's a great move to make it available.

Plus, the "put everything for quick start in one index page" is a great idea for new players to get hooked in easily (little barrier to entry in navigating around to find quick start rules and such).


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## WotC_GregB (Apr 29, 2009)

The quick-start rules were also expanded to be more comprehensive, and the character sheets were updated to fix the errors.


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## cdrcjsn (Apr 29, 2009)

Neat!  Thanks for this.

This will definitely help for an upcoming local convention.


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## Klaus (Apr 29, 2009)

Lots of changes:

On The Road - I think the kobolds' positions have been reworked.
A1 - Kobolds' positions reworked
A2 - Kobold skirmisher became Kobold slink
A3 - Dragonshields became Denwardens, Irontooth's Dual Axe must be against separate targets.
A4 - Motivations reworked, Halfling Slinger became Kalarel's Apparition
Area 8 - new stats for Sir Keegan, Skill Challenge reworked
Area 16 - Traps reworked
Area 19 - Deathlock Wight replaced with Shallowgrave Wight. Lots of skeleton minions. Skill Challenge added. Thing In The Portal is now a hazard. Two magic items added to Kalarel and the Wight.


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## w_earle_wheeler (Apr 29, 2009)

This is pretty cool. I felt that KotSF was a great introductory adventure module for DMs and players new to 4e. 

Also, the fact that it strongly resembled Keep on the Borderlands appealed to me.

I did think the cover price was pretty steep, but if it's a free download now, that's a smart move by WotC.


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## Dannager (Apr 29, 2009)

Awesome.

The fact that they revisited it in order to update/fix some things is double awesome.


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## Almacov (Apr 29, 2009)

I think this is a really, really cool move.
The funny thing is, even though I never run published adventures, and had no real desire to pick up a copy of this before now, I think this may actually make me want to.

I think it's likely a combination of seeing what the poster maps actually look like and mean in terms of setting opportunities, noticing the DMG-style advice sections I didn't know existed in the product, and just seeing how the adventure layout looks as a whole. I'm pretty impressed, and I didn't think I would be. 

See, none of the sample encounter excerpts from their published adventures that have been posted on the site have really excited me, but seeing the sections that lay out multiple story hooks, or rumor tables, or NPC writeups... seeing that the adventure has some actual density in terms of RP-centric material, and something to offer beyond the adventure itself (advice sections, for instance), that _does_ get me excited as a consumer.


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## EricNoah (Apr 29, 2009)

I had no idea there was a character builder demo.  So getting to see that was neat.


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## darjr (Apr 29, 2009)

This is great. I wondered why there wasn't something like this, it seems lots of other games have done this.

I also think it's a neat way to also sell hard copies of the adventure. I would want the poster maps. Neat.


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## SlyFlourish (Apr 29, 2009)

I think this is really really great, and a really smart thing for Wizards to do.

Now a group can sit down and play through an entire adventure, about 24 hours worth of gaming content, for free. They get PCs, they get a stripped down set of rules. They get an excellent adventure. I think this is the new Redbox as far as I'm concerned. I like this a lot better than the basic set (though it does come with minis and dice and all of that).

I think they'd be smart to build KOTS into the new redbox, redoing the starter set around it.

Others have criticized it but my group and I absolutely loved playing through KOTS. I played through it both as a player and ran it as a DM so I've gone through it twice. I think, though its a dungeon crawler (this is Dungeons and Dragons, mind you), it has plenty of roleplaying opportunity with a lot of NPCs. I think it is the great cornerstone of a campaign and I plan to use the general plot hook of this throughout my current campaign.

I really love this.


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## ashockney (Apr 29, 2009)

Klaus said:


> Lots of changes:
> 
> On The Road - I think the kobolds' positions have been reworked.
> A1 - Kobolds' positions reworked
> ...




/applauds
/applauds loudly
/stands
/standing ovation

Well done!


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## El Mahdi (Apr 29, 2009)

After the whole pdf thing, I think this is a very smart and classy move.  They needed to do something like this to show some goodwill towards their customers.  This was a very good way to do that.  Will it be enough to bring some people back?  I don't really know.  I do know it's not enough for me, but it is a move in the right direction.  I also think it's a brilliant way to bring even more new players into the game.  The page with the downloads was very effectively made with links to the core books.  And the character builder teaser is a nice touch also.

Good job, WotC.


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## MadLordOfMilk (Apr 29, 2009)

Sweet! An update to the one published 4e adventure I've bought! 

It fixes a lot of the problems with it, I think. Also, it's GREAT to be able to just send my friends a link to the quick start rules


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## darjr (Apr 29, 2009)

It is nice to have the quick start rules so easily accessible.

Can anybody at WotC say anything about an FLGS burning them to CD or something and handing them out?


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## fanboy2000 (Apr 29, 2009)

For people who want the posters: IIRC, most if not all of the poster maps in KotS were from the fantastic locations line. This could allow someone to buy the poster maps without having to buy an adventure they already have.


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## Regicide (Apr 29, 2009)

So WotC still thinks that a L+5 encounter is appropriate for the 3rd encounter that a new player is going to experience?  Um?  It looks like it WAS made a little easier, but it's still L+5...


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## Knightfall (Apr 29, 2009)

I have to admit, this is a really cool thing for WotC to do for 4e fans. Now excuse me while I convert this module to 3.5 for my own purposes.


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## chriton227 (Apr 29, 2009)

While this is really nice for the players, what does this mean for any FLGS that have copies sitting on the shelf?


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## Daern (Apr 29, 2009)

Looks like the final battle has been improved.  Also, mshea has some nice KOTS advice on his website.


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## Obryn (Apr 29, 2009)

Regicide said:


> So WotC still thinks that a L+5 encounter is appropriate for the 3rd encounter that a new player is going to experience?  Um?  It looks like it WAS made a little easier, but it's still L+5...



It's doable, but tough.

It's also fairly optional, when it comes down to it.  You can finish the entire adventure without facing Irontooth.  Better yet, you can come back to him when you hit 2nd or 3rd level and have a much easier time of things.

Personally, love it.  I think it feels like a throwback to those wonderful killer encounters in 1e - a fairly unbalanced, high-risk, high-reward optional side-quest.  Like, say, following that secret passage under the tower in ToEE...

-O


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## Dire Bare (Apr 29, 2009)

darjr said:


> It is nice to have the quick start rules so easily accessible.
> 
> Can anybody at WotC say anything about an FLGS burning them to CD or something and handing them out?




It may be a free download at wizards.com, but it's still copyrighted.  My guess would be "no".


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## Dire Bare (Apr 29, 2009)

chriton227 said:


> While this is really nice for the players, what does this mean for any FLGS that have copies sitting on the shelf?




Hard to say.  Some free PDFs have led to higher hard copy sales for various RPG publishers . . . but I don't think a massive study has been done on the subject (at least not one that's been made public).

This module's been in the retail chain long enough I doubt it will seriously impact retail sales.  Now, if they released a free download for "E1: Death's Reach" (released this month) . . . I'd be more curious what kind of impact that would have!


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 29, 2009)

It's funny that so many people say that KotS isn't such a great adventure. Yet I have stolen a lot from it. A part of my base plot in the online campaign uses material from KotS - it provides me with a nice starting city and a few NPC to run around. Of course I removed most of the plot line (the Keep is still intact, protected by Nerathi Guardians and much more changes). 

The fact that they updated the adventure is neat, especially considering it is free.


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## Vicar In A Tutu (Apr 29, 2009)

Very cool


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## FireLance (Apr 29, 2009)

hvg3akaek said:


> Area 8 (Sir Keegan's Tomb) - Keegan's stats have been reworked, and a proper skill challenge has been added.



Too bad the skill challenge can't decide whether four or six successes are required.  I'm personally inclined to go with six successes myself.


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## Mephistopheles (Apr 29, 2009)

Lowering the barriers of entry for people to get a look at what it's all about is definitely a good move. Thumbs up to WotC on this one.


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## Jack99 (Apr 29, 2009)

Considering it was still on the amazon.com top 25 rpg products last week or so, I think it's pretty cool. I mean, it's not like it wasn't selling at all, that's for sure.


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## lasergreger (Apr 29, 2009)

I also noticed some other small changes. One being that the Goblin Sharpshooters now have Hand Crossbows, giving them 1d6+4 damage instad of the ghastly 1d8+4, those things kicked PC-butt. Glad to see they are a bit nerfed.

And if I'm not mistaken, the Goblin Bombadiers and the Gravehounds (with Ninaran) weren't in the original either.


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## CapnZapp (Apr 29, 2009)

As with all other widely pirated stuff, handing out things for free that are easily available anyway isn't much of a sacrifice for WotC, and will only garner good PR. 

Someone's thinking right over there - why get it from the netz when I can get it from Wizards, and in an updated version too! 

Draws traffic and builds goodwill. (The fact it isn't a very good adventure to begin with is kind of beside the point)


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## Hellzon (Apr 29, 2009)

CapnZapp said:


> As with all other widely pirated stuff, handing out things for free that are easily available anyway isn't much of a sacrifice for WotC, and will only garner good PR.




One wonders if they'll release H2 and H3 too, yes. I doubt it, but it would be cool.


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## lasergreger (Apr 29, 2009)

More would sting a bit in the eyes of us that have actually payed for those though


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## Klaus (Apr 29, 2009)

lasergreger said:


> I also noticed some other small changes. One being that the Goblin Sharpshooters now have Hand Crossbows, giving them 1d6+4 damage instad of the ghastly 1d8+4, those things kicked PC-butt. Glad to see they are a bit nerfed.
> 
> And if I'm not mistaken, the Goblin Bombadiers and the Gravehounds (with Ninaran) weren't in the original either.



The gravehounds were there, but I didn't notice any bombardiers... I'll have to look at it again.

If I had to change one more thing in this PDF, it'd be to replace the Gnome Lurk in the Dragon Burial Site with the same Dark Creeper from the Undertemple. Letting it slip away and be faced again later will allow for a "You again?!" moment.


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## Jack99 (Apr 29, 2009)

lasergreger said:


> More would sting a bit in the eyes of us that have actually payed for those though




Nah, I payed for it almost a year ago, in dead-tree version. I think I could survive the occassional free PDF release without exploding with nerd-rage.


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## Obryn (Apr 29, 2009)

Klaus said:


> If I had to change one more thing in this PDF, it'd be to replace the Gnome Lurk in the Dragon Burial Site with the same Dark Creeper from the Undertemple. Letting it slip away and be faced again later will allow for a "You again?!" moment.



I replaced the Clay Scout with a wraith...  I liked its flavor better, with the undead theme and all.  Also, he can phase up and down between the floors - so it's a quick retreat down to Kalarel.

-O


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## Nebulous (Apr 29, 2009)

Cool changes.  I really like the Apparition of Kalarel in there.  I myself really, really enjoyed KotS, and it has served as great jumping board for Thunderspire Labyrinth. I can see how some people would see all the combat as a grind, but i had to just cut some of that out to make it work us.


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## Zaukrie (Apr 29, 2009)

This is great. I'm still utterly shocked they don't have 3-4 short, low level adventures on line for free to help introduce the game. This just seems like a no brainer to me.

You can't just pick this game up and start playing, like a board game. There is almost no support for new players and DMs (though the character builder is quite good for helping players).


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## Henry (Apr 29, 2009)

I'd call this a great move - good job, Wizards folks!


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## ExploderWizard (Apr 29, 2009)

I think this was a great way to introduce prospective players for the game with no initial buy in cost. With the economy still in a huge slump, a chance to try a game and actually play through a full length adventure before buying really helps the down and out gamer a great deal. It's a good marketing move too because once the economy recovers, those folks who enjoyed the free content will remember it and will likely buy product.


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## nerfherder (Apr 29, 2009)

Perfect timing - I'll be running the final encounter in 2 weeks time.


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## TerraDave (Apr 29, 2009)

First, I take full credit for this, seeing it as a response to my demands here:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...st-h1-h3-please-put-up-art-map-galleries.html

(though WotCies, you have more to do...)

Second, they have done quite a few revisions to both the rules and the adventure. E.g. from things I noticed in the last session, the DC for the perception check on the altar in the "skelatal legion" encounter has been brough down from 25 to 15 (my pcs had no chance to make, so I just sort of hinted that there was something there, and maybe they could figure it out later) and the damage the hobgoblin soliders did with their flails,  2d6+ (those are some big one handed flails) is know 1d10+, as per the MM. 

Third: This is a great entry point. But bookmarks would have been nice, to.


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## Infiniti2000 (Apr 29, 2009)

We just finished last Saturday.  Poor timing!  

Nevertheless, the effort is greatly appreciated, WotC!


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## Jhaelen (Apr 29, 2009)

Now, that's funny!

Just yesterday I was talking to one of the players in my 3E campaign, telling him I was going to try to find the QuickStartRules for 4E, since I finally managed to get them interested in a test session. And now I even have a good starting point for an intro adventure 

Very cool (and smart) move by Wizards!


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## frankthedm (Apr 29, 2009)

Klaus said:


> Irontooth's Dual Axe must be against separate targets.



Sounds like a wise move. a wide sweep helps spread the damage out more than a double chop on one victim.


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## darjr (Apr 29, 2009)

Dire Bare said:


> It may be a free download at wizards.com, but it's still copyrighted.  My guess would be "no".




That's a good guess. It's also my default, still, I'd like to know from WotC. 

Probably should just email cust serv.


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## Verys Arkon (Apr 29, 2009)

Must agree, this is a good move for getting people involved in the (4e) hobby for absolutely no initial investment.

Now, they just need to find a good home for the link on the main page so it doesn't get bumped with the next news item!


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## Treebore (Apr 29, 2009)

I agree this is a good/smart move by WOTC. The "fixing" of the adventure is a good move too.


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## hvg3akaek (Apr 30, 2009)

Regicide said:


> So WotC still thinks that a L+5 encounter is appropriate for the 3rd encounter that a new player is going to experience?  Um?  It looks like it WAS made a little easier, but it's still L+5...




How is it easier?  The only changes I can see is the dragonshields being replaced with Denwardens.  Which looks to be *harder*...

Their attacks are now 1d8+3 instead of 1d6+3.  They are still at +7.  Despite their strength dropping by one, and exchanging a sword for a spear... (I'd have thought it should be +6, 1d8+2?)

And the mark effect now also has a free-basic-melee attack assigned to it.


I can't see any other significant changes to it?


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## Grydan (Apr 30, 2009)

Klaus said:


> Irontooth's Dual Axe must be against separate targets.




There's no actual mechanical change there, at least in my copy. The only difference is now the power mentions Irontooth (rather redundantly, in my opinion).

Original: *Make a basic attack against two adjacent creatures.
*
Revised: *Irontooth makes a basic attack against two adjacent creatures.

*Non-mechanically, Irontooth was originally described as "wielding a battleaxe in two hands", described in the treasure section as having one axe, and depicted in the art as having one axe. Now he's described as holding a battleaxe in each hand, and his equipment (now moved to the appropriate place in his stat-block, rather than in the treasure) includes two axes.

Given that I picked up the _Snig the Axe_ mini to represent him, I'll be using the single-axe version, though probably with the lowered defenses of the revised version.


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## GuJiaXian (Apr 30, 2009)

Has anyone bookmarked the new pdf? I'm currently running KotS and this revised version is great, but I'd love to be able to navigate the file a little more easily.


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## OchreJelly (Apr 30, 2009)

I haven't looked at it yet, but what's the deal with the new apparition?  I like the idea that they include the villain more earlier in the adventure, even if it's just an apparition.  Does it change that encounters tactics / story elements much?


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## timbannock (Apr 30, 2009)

mshea said:


> I think this is really really great, and a really smart thing for Wizards to do.
> 
> Now a group can sit down and play through an entire adventure, about 24 hours worth of gaming content, for free. They get PCs, they get a stripped down set of rules. They get an excellent adventure. I think this is the new Redbox as far as I'm concerned. I like this a lot better than the basic set (though it does come with minis and dice and all of that).
> 
> I think they'd be smart to build KOTS into the new redbox, redoing the starter set around it.




I couldn't agree more.  This is what the introductory for D&D should be...an obviously improved version of KOTS with the "expanded Quickstart Rules".  Throw in the correct poster maps/dungeon tiles, key minis (PCs plus the major baddies), some dice, and you're good to go.

Tack on the Savage Worlds customizable GM screen and it's perfect ;-P

Seriously, though, this is what was lacking when 4e launched.  They need to make the links to this permanent, right on the homepage, and easy to find.  It's brilliant.


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## jbear (Apr 30, 2009)

I think WotC has been making steady and constant improvements to the game, and amending mistakes. I think they are listening to fans and reacting accordingly. 

I bought a paper copy of the adventure as well. I don't mind that it is now free. Actually I have just started using it for a second group I have started so I appreciate any amendments, especially the inclusion of some skill challenges.

I think this type of reaction to their war on pirating is smart, nothing to lose and everything to gain. It also bodes well that the people at the helm are thinking, reacting, adjusting and expanding the game. Positive stuff.


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## Scribble (Apr 30, 2009)

I bought a paper copy, but it got destroyed by a water leak.  So now I have KoTS again.


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## Nail (Apr 30, 2009)

A free pdf - for WotC - of KotS is cool!  I own the paper copy (with bad ink, remember?).  Having a pdf is a good thing.  I'll look through it this evening.


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## allenw (Apr 30, 2009)

Is KotS really runnable without the fold-out maps, or at least some depiction of them?  As I recall, the main adventure book has some close-ups showing monster starting locations, but it's gonna be hard and frustrating for a newbie to run the very first encounter without a map showing the whole encounter area.


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## Mathew_Freeman (Apr 30, 2009)

I think this is awesome, and it's just a shame my group and I have already finished KotS!

Still, if I ever move house or get a new group, I'd be happy to run it again.


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## Obryn (Apr 30, 2009)

allenw said:


> Is KotS really runnable without the fold-out maps, or at least some depiction of them?  As I recall, the main adventure book has some close-ups showing monster starting locations, but it's gonna be hard and frustrating for a newbie to run the very first encounter without a map showing the whole encounter area.



Well, an adventure without fold-out maps is certainly more runnable than it would be without maps AND an adventure. 

I think the maps are nice, but I don't think they're essential.  The DM was already responsible for drawing out most of the maps in KotS, and this is just a few more.  Not a big deal.

-O


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## allenw (Apr 30, 2009)

Obryn said:


> Well, an adventure without fold-out maps is certainly more runnable than it would be without maps AND an adventure.
> 
> I think the maps are nice, but I don't think they're essential.  The DM was already responsible for drawing out most of the maps in KotS, and this is just a few more.  Not a big deal.
> 
> -O




My complaint isn't that the DM has to draw battlemap-scale versions of the fold-out maps, but that (at least on first glance) thise encounter maps (as opposed to the tactical closeups) aren't there at all, even in smaller-scale versions.  Kinda rough on a newbie DM to have to make up 75% of the map for the first encounter from scratch, especially when he may not even realize it's missing at first (assuming that the tactical closeup showing monster placement *is* the full map).  I only skimmed through the PDF, perhaps I'm missing something?


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## Klaus (Apr 30, 2009)

OchreJelly said:


> I haven't looked at it yet, but what's the deal with the new apparition?  I like the idea that they include the villain more earlier in the adventure, even if it's just an apparition.  Does it change that encounters tactics / story elements much?



The gnome now works for Kalarel, the apparition is guiding the show (and is in plain sight), the hostage has been forced to help find an artifact and when the gnome dies he goes all "Master! I have failed yooooo!!!!". Those gnomes are all about the drama... 

I wish this PDF was about when I started running KotS...


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## Grydan (May 1, 2009)

Though the gnome's attempts to convince the party that he's a friend are going to be a bit more difficult now that the operation is overseen by a "sinister apparition". 

"Oh, that thing? Uh... that's my cousin Fred. Cursed, years ago. Doesn't like to talk about it."


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## hvg3akaek (May 1, 2009)

GuJiaXian said:


> Has anyone bookmarked the new pdf? I'm currently running KotS and this revised version is great, but I'd love to be able to navigate the file a little more easily.




I have, but was wondering on the legality of releasing it - especially since someone was saying "no" to the whole releasing the pdf on a CD?


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## Obryn (May 1, 2009)

allenw said:


> My complaint isn't that the DM has to draw battlemap-scale versions of the fold-out maps, but that (at least on first glance) thise encounter maps (as opposed to the tactical closeups) aren't there at all, even in smaller-scale versions.  Kinda rough on a newbie DM to have to make up 75% of the map for the first encounter from scratch, especially when he may not even realize it's missing at first (assuming that the tactical closeup showing monster placement *is* the full map).  I only skimmed through the PDF, perhaps I'm missing something?



I think they'll be fine.   The road encounters are mostly wide-open space, and unless something has really changed, it'll even work fine with just the limited encounter area from the tactical close-up.  Heck; limiting the battle area may be a good idea at first.  I don't think my group ended up using the whole map on that one...

-O


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## Leif (May 1, 2009)

I can SEE the revised KotS on DDI, but my question is this -- Is there a way to download it for free, too?

--"Computer Semi-Literate Leif"


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## Hellzon (May 1, 2009)

Leif said:


> I can SEE the revised KotS on DDI, but my question is this -- Is there a way to download it for free, too?
> 
> --"Computer Semi-Literate Leif"



Well you can't now, because Wizards.com is down for maintenance, but there are links to both the module and the quickstart rules on the page I link in my OP.


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## Leif (May 1, 2009)

*sigh* I was afraid of that. That means that I just couldn't figure out how to do it.  I only have the free version of Acrobat.  Would that make a difference?


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## Scribble (May 1, 2009)

Leif said:


> *sigh* I was afraid of that. That means that I just couldn't figure out how to do it.  I only have the free version of Acrobat.  Would that make a difference?




you only need the free version.

two ways to do it:

1. Click on the news article so it brings you to the page that talks about the stuff offered.

See the link that says Download Keep on The Shadowfell? Right click on it, and choose "save link as."  it will let you save the PDF (it auto saves as H1.pdf

2. Click on the link that says Download Keep on the shadowfell, when it opens in your browser there should be a little icon that looks like an oldschool floppy disk? Click that to save it.

3. Not sure if this will work. but Right Click This Link then select "save link as" just like the first 1 above.


PS I assume this is ok to link here, as it's offered fo free, but if it's not Mods just lemme know and I will remove ASAP.


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## Jack99 (May 1, 2009)

Leif said:


> I can SEE the revised KotS on DDI, but my question is this -- Is there a way to download it for free, too?
> 
> --"Computer Semi-Literate Leif"




KotS is here Right-click and press save as - Is this what you have trouble downloading?


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## Leif (May 1, 2009)

Scribble said:


> you only need the free version.
> 
> two ways to do it:





Jack99 said:


> KotS is here Right-click and press save as - Is this what you have trouble downloading?



Thanks a million, both of you!


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## iconoplast (May 1, 2009)

I'm currently running a group through Kobold Hall, in preparation for starting KotS, so I think WotC's timing is pretty fantastic.

Can anyone think of a clever way to compare the two versions of the PDF and get a list of changes, beyond reading both side by side?  Does acrobat do that 'version comparison' thing? I've never tried using it in MSWord, and I'm not sure it exists for PDFs.


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## Rechan (May 4, 2009)

I actually used the revised version of the trap encounter last night, and found it very lacking.

Primarily because the Statue activates when someone gets within its reach (instead of activating when the water trap goes off). So the PCs knew something was afoot after the first attack, retreated, and plinked it to death. The cherub statues were easy as pie, because then the party walked over and smashed the first two before ever entering the room. 

I've been heavily modifying the encounters myself, switching out different monsters completely. But I do like the addition of Kalarel's apparition (and wished I'd thought of that).


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## Rechan (May 4, 2009)

Another thing I wish is that there were some appropriate low level demons to use. The balgura is a bit too brutal to drop down, and the carnage demon is a bit boring to me, and nothing else felt appropriate to drop down to fit into the dungeon.

But after all, Orcus is the _Demon_ Prince of Undead; a few demons would have been nice.


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## Grydan (May 5, 2009)

Tonight will be my first opportunity to use the revised material. If all goes as expected, my players should be heading into A2 (so Slink instead of another Skirmisher), and possibly A3 (with the Denwardens and the revised Irontooth) depending on how long it takes to do A2. 

Rechan, seeing your experience with the statue room, I'll probably change the initial trigger of the large statue, to see if I can't get the other traps in play first. However, I don't expect my players to be there for quite some time yet, so I've got a while to figure it out.


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## Nivenus (May 5, 2009)

This was an awesome surprise for me as a DM. I'll definitely be making use of it (whether or not I actually run the adventure).

This is pretty much, as far as I can figure, an Author's Saving Throw for WotC after that PDF fiasco.


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## Grydan (May 5, 2009)

To follow up; my players through me a curveball and decided that instead of dealing with Irontooth they'd go and try and find Kalarel. So, back to the Keep instead, and into a couple of encounters that hadn't really changed much. We cut off just before Sir Keegan, both because it was getting late, and because (having not anticipated this turn of events) I hadn't brought the revised version with me.


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## UndeadScottsman (Feb 22, 2010)

Anyone ever put together a comprehensive list of changes between the original paper release and this new PDF.  I'm going through them line by line now, but if someone already did the work I'd be happy to use that instead.

Especially considering that after I'm done doing that, I have to work in the Orcus Conversion


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## brunswick (Mar 2, 2010)

*KOTS Scenario Question **Possible Spoiler***

Hi Everyone,

Can I ask people a question about one encounter in this adventure?

I dont know whether I am missing something but in the encounter in Area 16: Chamber of Statues, specifically in relation to the "whirlpool trap" in the "Tactics" section it says THIS in one paragraph:

"The vases can be attacked only from inside the trapped area".

However, it then says THIS in another (the next) paragraph:

"Characters can neutralize the whirlpool trap entirely by attacking the vases without setting foot in the trapped area between the cherub statues; see the whirlpool trap's statistics block for the vases' statistics".

If I was a player in this adventure and I made my perception check to notice something odd about the vases, I would certainly attempt to affect them from a distance but with the two different pieces of DM advice above, I dont know what way to rule on this.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,


Bruns.


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## Echohawk (Mar 2, 2010)

brunswick said:


> "The vases can be attacked only from inside the trapped area".
> 
> However, it then says THIS in another (the next) paragraph:
> 
> "Characters can neutralize the whirlpool trap entirely by attacking the vases without setting foot in the trapped area between the cherub statues; see the whirlpool trap's statistics block for the vases' statistics".



I think the first bit applies after the trap is triggered. Once the "indestructible walls of arcane energy" are in place, the vases can only be attacked from the inside.

However, before the trap is triggered (which means the characters have not yet set foot in the trapped area), the vases can be attacked from outside and the trap neutralized.


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## brunswick (Mar 2, 2010)

Ah, cheers.  Just had a re-read over it, and what you say makes sense.  Thanks for the help!


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## Merlin the Tuna (Mar 2, 2010)

brunswick said:


> Any suggestions?




I have a suggestion: *skip the room entirely.*  It's a trainwreck.

First off, there are a ton of safe spots in it.  Even if your players are willing to say "Well, the statues are very clearly traps, but maybe our characters don't know that" and eat a swing from the knight to start things off, they can then make that obvious conclusion, back up, and pepper everything with ranged attacks.  Alternatively they can simply move around the dragons and the knight entirely without even bothering to deal with them.  This is doubly true since the statues don't have any interrupts, so you can even move right through their attack ranges while scurrying past them.  On the other hand, if you do have a player run past the knight & dragon statues _alone_, he's basically dead if you play the whirlpool straight; being slowed and at -5 to hit means it's going to take him a metric eternity to free himself.  And thanks to ye olde "Wall of magic that is immune to weapons, magic, or creativity of any kind" preventing the rest of the party from contributing in any way, he'll be KO'ed well before then.

So you've got much of the room that completely fails to be threatening unless you go out of your way to disarm the traps just because they're there to be disarmed, and you've got the other part that's certain death if the group doesn't move into the area in exactly the same time and/or decides to do something other than attacking the statues while the water level is still rising (such as trying skills or looking for controls to stop the water or destroy the walls, or even just attacking the walls themselves.)  And say what you will about the Tomb of Horrors-style deathtraps of days past, but at least they had the decency to kill you and be done with it.  The whirlpool trap watches you flail helplessly about for 4 or 5 rounds while most of the party stands idly by saying, "Well, sucks to be him, I guess."

And then to compound things, they add in the asinine "This trap doesn't affect Evil creatures" to explain why this room is allowed to exist right in front of the villain's most important section of the keep.  Even just using one of the keep's passwords would be a big step up, but apparently even that went way beyond the level of effort that went into designing this encounter.

This room was responsible for without a doubt the worst session of D&D I've ever played. Seriously, skip it or change it dramatically.


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## Voadam (Mar 2, 2010)

Rechan said:


> Another thing I wish is that there were some appropriate low level demons to use. The balgura is a bit too brutal to drop down, and the carnage demon is a bit boring to me, and nothing else felt appropriate to drop down to fit into the dungeon.
> 
> But after all, Orcus is the _Demon_ Prince of Undead; a few demons would have been nice.




I know its necroing but I'm just now reading the 4e MM. I think you could reskin an imp to be a quasit demon fairly easily.


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## brunswick (Mar 3, 2010)

Merlin the Tuna said:


> I have a suggestion: *skip the room entirely.* It's a trainwreck.
> 
> First off, there are a ton of safe spots in it. Even if your players are willing to say "Well, the statues are very clearly traps, but maybe our characters don't know that" and eat a swing from the knight to start things off, they can then make that obvious conclusion, back up, and pepper everything with ranged attacks. Alternatively they can simply move around the dragons and the knight entirely without even bothering to deal with them. This is doubly true since the statues don't have any interrupts, so you can even move right through their attack ranges while scurrying past them. On the other hand, if you do have a player run past the knight & dragon statues _alone_, he's basically dead if you play the whirlpool straight; being slowed and at -5 to hit means it's going to take him a metric eternity to free himself. And thanks to ye olde "Wall of magic that is immune to weapons, magic, or creativity of any kind" preventing the rest of the party from contributing in any way, he'll be KO'ed well before then.
> 
> ...




Cheers Merlin - I might put some sort of password clue somewhere in the scenario. I'll have a think about it - the thing is I will be running the scenario for 2 different 4th edition groups, so I'll need to come up with something or "test drive" it with the first group as a gauge for how to handle it for the second group! 

Edit: The two groups are only just about at Winterhaven at this point (I ran some 'home made' encounters en route from Fallcrest).


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## UngainlyTitan (Mar 3, 2010)

Merlin the Tuna said:


> I have a suggestion: *skip the room entirely.*  It's a trainwreck.
> 
> First off, there are a ton of safe spots in it.  Even if your players are willing to say "Well, the statues are very clearly traps, but maybe our characters don't know that" and eat a swing from the knight to start things off, they can then make that obvious conclusion, back up, and pepper everything with ranged attacks.  Alternatively they can simply move around the dragons and the knight entirely without even bothering to deal with them.  This is doubly true since the statues don't have any interrupts, so you can even move right through their attack ranges while scurrying past them.  On the other hand, if you do have a player run past the knight & dragon statues _alone_, he's basically dead if you play the whirlpool straight; being slowed and at -5 to hit means it's going to take him a metric eternity to free himself.  And thanks to ye olde "Wall of magic that is immune to weapons, magic, or creativity of any kind" preventing the rest of the party from contributing in any way, he'll be KO'ed well before then.
> 
> ...



I agree that the main room traps are a little boring though my players did disarm them. I really like the whirlpool trap though I did allow a bit of creativity in handling it. Bascially the eladrin wizard triggered it on her own but I allowed her to feystep out when the water was rising. Then I allowed her to use thivery with mage hand to disarm the trap while it was still active. 
All in all I though it was pretty cool and good creative thinking on the part of the players.


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## Shades of Green (Mar 6, 2010)

As someone who've never read 4E (and who plays BFRPG), I must say that this is a very good decision by WotC - letting players and DMs test-drive 4E before shelling out the cash to purchase the three core books.

Anyhow, I'm half-way through reading the Quick Start Rules, and so far they look quite well-written and easy to use. If you want, I'll post a more detailed "First Impressions" thread about them once I'll finish reading them.


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