# Heward's Handy Haversack = free Quickdraw? +Quiver of Ehlonna questions



## RedSwan78 (Feb 20, 2003)

Well, I was on the wizards sight and looking over the Errata, and saw that HHH was changed to:

"Retrieving any specific item from a haversack is a *FREE action*   "

Quickdraw says: You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move-equivilent action


 Hmmm.. this works out pretty well for my sorcerer that uses a LongBow.. Put the LongBow in the Haversack, and put the quivers of arrows in the Haversack.. that way, I can retrieve my LongBow as a free action, and shoot.

 The other question is, what kind of action is it to put an item back *into* a Haversack? Free action? Move Equivilent action?

Edit- see my next post (two posts down) for Quiver of Ehlonna questions.


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## 0-hr (Feb 20, 2003)

If you put something pointy into a Haversack, it will likely poke a hole in it and lose all the contents forever (see Bag of Holding).

It is a free action to pull a weapon out of a haversack. Some DM's do not count this the same as "preparing" a weapon. They say you get your bow into your hands as a free action, but it could be upside down or whatever. To prepare it for firing is still a move equiv. That's borderline house rule though.


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## AuraSeer (Feb 20, 2003)

*Re: Heward's Handy Haversack = free Quickdraw?*



			
				RedSwan78 said:
			
		

> *
> The other question is, what kind of action is it to put an item back *into* a Haversack? Free action? Move Equivilent action? *



Putting an item away is normally move-equivalent. HHH does not state that it changes this, so placing an item inside is still a MEA.


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## RedSwan78 (Feb 20, 2003)

Hmm.. pretty much figured it would be a MEA to put things back in it, but wanted to see what others had to say, or if I was missing something.. hehe

 As for the  "like a bag of holding", a Bag of Holding says:

" If the bag is overloaded, or if sharp objects pierce it (from inside or outside), the bag ruptures and is ruined"  

 Wow.. never saw that before.. is that new for 3E? Anyways, the arrows would be in the quivers in the HHH, and therefore wouldn't ever "pierce" the Haversack, since arrows go pointy end down into a quiver..  

 Hmm.. that changes things.. so blunt weapons could go into a Haversack as well? (just as long as it isn't like a morningstar that has little pointy parts)..

 So what about ? *Quiver of Ehlonna* ? It says that it can hold arrows, javelins, and bows.. it also says:

" *Once the owner has filled it, she can command the quiver to produce any stored item she wishes.*  "

 Just what *exactly* does that mean? Can I "command" my quiver to produce my bow in my hands? What about arrows? I'm confuzzled


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## kreynolds (Feb 20, 2003)

RedSwan78 said:
			
		

> *...is that new for 3E? *




No. I only go as far back as 2nd edition, but it was there as well.



			
				RedSwan78 said:
			
		

> *...so blunt weapons could go into a Haversack as well? *




Yup. A rock can go in there too. Or a bar of soap, for that matter. 



			
				RedSwan78 said:
			
		

> *Can I "command" my quiver to produce my bow in my hands? *




Yes. It's a standard action to do so. Whether or not it appears right in your hands is another matter, but the point is that its a standard action to get it.


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## Murrdox (Feb 20, 2003)

All your questions about the HHH are essentially correct, at least that's how we play it in our game.

HHH is a backpack, designed in such a way that when you reach in, you automatically grab the item you're looking for.

However, I would not allow someone to draw both his weapon AND his quiver of arrows from the hoversack in one round.  With the exception of perhaps dropping items, and drawing two swords from sheaths (using quickdraw) on either side of your body simultaneously, no type of free action should be allowed twice in a round, IMHO.  If you do so, then it's now a ME action instead of free.


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## RedSwan78 (Feb 20, 2003)

kreynolds said:
			
		

> *
> Yes. It's a standard action to do so. Whether or not it appears right in your hands is another matter, but the point is that its a standard action to get it. *




 Ok, this is where I get REALLY confuzzled.. so if it's a standard action to command the item out of the quiver.. I guess I would NEVER EVER put my bow that I plan on using in it. Because, damn, even if I DON'T have quickdraw, I can move and draw my bow. BUT if it's in my Quiver of Ehlonna, it's a *standard* action to produce it, meaning I ONLY get a move or MAE after that? 

 That can't be right... (that just doesn't sound right to me)

Here's where it gets even WORSE... Arrows.. so you mean, to pull an arrow out of the Quiver of Ehlonna is a standard action??? So my round consists of pulling out an arrow, and maybe moving if I want to, and that's it.. can't attack, because standard action takes place of attack action..

 See why I'm confuzzled so badly? hehe


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## kreynolds (Feb 20, 2003)

RedSwan78 said:
			
		

> * ...even if I DON'T have quickdraw, I can move and draw my bow. *




Yes.



			
				RedSwan78 said:
			
		

> *BUT if it's in my Quiver of Ehlonna, it's a *standard* action to produce it, meaning I ONLY get a move or MAE after that? *




Yes. You can move and draw your bow. Same as above. The quiver is not a good place to store your primary bow. It's a good place to store backup/alternate bows. Also, note that it says "items".



			
				RedSwan78 said:
			
		

> *That can't be right... (that just doesn't sound right to me) *




It is. Unless specifically stated otherwise, activating a magic item is a standard action.



			
				RedSwan78 said:
			
		

> *...so you mean, to pull an arrow out of the Quiver of Ehlonna is a standard action??? *




It doesn't say otherwise (and it would have to), and I'm not aware of any errata.



			
				RedSwan78 said:
			
		

> *So my round consists of pulling out an arrow, and maybe moving if I want to, and that's it.. can't attack, because standard action takes place of attack action.. *




Yup.



			
				RedSwan78 said:
			
		

> *See why I'm confuzzled so badly? *




Nope. 

EDIT: By the way, whatever you do, don't put your Quiver of Ehlonna into your Heward's Handy Haversack.


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## Hypersmurf (Feb 20, 2003)

> *...so you mean, to pull an arrow out of the Quiver of Ehlonna is a standard action???
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> It doesn't say otherwise (and it would have to), and I'm not aware of any errata.*




The way I've always interpreted it is that the Quiver can hold 20 arrows in real space ("This appears to be a typical arrow container capable of holding about 20 arrows").  Once those 20 run out, you can, as a standard action, command the Quiver to yank another 20 out of extradimensional space into the "real" part of the quiver.

Having an item _in the form of a quiver_ that allows an archer to carry lots of arrows but not shoot any of them seems to make no sense...

-Hyp.


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## RedSwan78 (Feb 20, 2003)

OK, so what good IS a Quiver of Ehlonna? The description DOESN'T even say that it reduces weight like a HHH or Bag of Holding does.. and you can't pull arrows out of it like a normal quiver.. this just seems to be, to be THE most USELESS magical item of it's "type".. (that being, extra holding things type)

 About the ONLY use I see is that you can put pointy objects into it with no worries. But that's not even special, because the description doesn't say it reduces wieght, so who cares that you can do that?

 Really, what's going on with this magical item? Am I blind and not seeing something I may not be seeing? Do I have an old copy of a DMG that doesn't say it reduces weight like a HHH or Bag of Holding and new copies of the DMG *do* say it does?


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## kreynolds (Feb 20, 2003)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> *The way I've always interpreted it is that the Quiver can hold 20 arrows in real space ("This appears to be a typical arrow container capable of holding about 20 arrows"). *




Gotcha. I don't interpret it that way though. Note that it says "appears to be". Closer examination reveals that it is not.


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## Hypersmurf (Feb 20, 2003)

> *OK, so what good IS a Quiver of Ehlonna? The description DOESN'T even say that it reduces weight like a HHH or Bag of Holding does.. *




The spears, javelins, and arrows you store in the Quiver are in extra-dimensional space.

Bags of Holding don't _reduce_ the weight of things - they simply store them off-plane.  The bag has a fixed weight regardless of what is in it, because you're not actually carrying the things in the bag.

A Quiver of Ehlonna also stores things in extra-dimensional space.  It doesn't need to say anything about the weight of the spears and javelins, because _you're not carrying them_.

-Hyp.


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## kreynolds (Feb 20, 2003)

RedSwan78 said:
			
		

> *OK, so what good IS a Quiver of Ehlonna? *




You mean besides the fact that a normal quiver can only hold a max of 20 arrows but this one holds 60, and that only uses one third of its storage capacity?


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## kreynolds (Feb 20, 2003)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> *Having an item in the form of a quiver that allows an archer to carry lots of arrows but not shoot any of them seems to make no sense... *




Nothing says you can't carry two quivers though. I think its still pretty useful, especially considering its low cost.


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## Hypersmurf (Feb 20, 2003)

> *Nothing says you can't carry two quivers though. I think its still pretty useful, especially considering its low cost. *




It doesn't make sense to shape it like a quiver if it doesn't work like a quiver, though 

-Hyp.


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## 0-hr (Feb 20, 2003)

Murrdox said:
			
		

> * I would not allow someone to draw both his weapon AND his quiver of arrows from the hoversack in one round.  *



_Hoversack_? Don't you think this item is powerful enough as is?  

I just wanted to point out that you can draw a quiver from a haversack as a free action. You can't draw an arrow from a quivier from a haversack though. If your arrows are in a quiver in a haversack, then they aren't really available for immeadiate use. And if they are not in quivers, then we have the "pointy thing" problem again.

Now, the two side pockets on the haversack are about the size of a quiver, so I could see a quiver set into those such that the top sticks out (making the arrows accessible). But this isn't really gaining you much over a pair or normal quivers (except it would look funky to see these 3ft arrows being pulled out of these short side pockets). Maybe the DM would let you make one big custom quiver that could "line" the inside of your haversack?

Also, a really nasty (and smart) villian could hire some goblin archers  (with their handy True Strike potions) to shoot an arrow or two in the heroe's backbacks (striking a worn object). Can you imagine the woe and anquish when the bag is pierced and all of it's contents are lost forever?


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## Alchemist (Feb 20, 2003)

I remember the last time kreynolds here gently pointed out the seeming uselessness of the Quiver.  While kreynolds is 100% correct by the book, I think most people just assume (read: houserule without actively writing it up in the campaign charter) that it acts like a regular quiver, but holds tons more stuff.  I know I do.  Though I like Hypersmurf's interpretation.


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## Murrdox (Feb 20, 2003)

Ummm... is this the item you guys are talking about?  Got it from the SRD, but it's not named the same...

_Efficient Quiver
This appears to be a typical arrow container capable of holding about 20 arrows. Examination shows that it has three distinct portions, each with an extradimensional space allowing it to store far more than would normally be possible. The first and smallest one can contain up to 60 objects of the same general size and shape as an arrow. The second slightly longer compartment holds up to 18 objects of the same general size and shape as a javelin. The third and longest portion of the case contains as many as six objects of the same general size and shape as a bow (including spears, staffs, etc.). Once the owner has filled it, the owner can command the quiver each round to produce any stored items he or she wishes.
Caster Level: 9th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, secret chest; Market Price: 1,800 gp; Weight: -._


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## Hypersmurf (Feb 20, 2003)

> *Ummm... is this the item you guys are talking about?  Got it from the SRD, but it's not named the same...*




That's the one.

The SRD has been 'genericised' to get rid of proper nouns.

Which is why wizard spells in the SRD have exciting names like "Sword", "Transformation", or "Tiny Hut".

(From memory - I use the OpenGamingFoundation version of the SRD, which still has the proper nouns...)

-Hyp.


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## kreynolds (Feb 20, 2003)

Alchemist said:
			
		

> *I remember the last time kreynolds here gently pointed out the seeming uselessness of the Quiver. *




I don't. Must have been more than three days ago.


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## Petrosian (Feb 20, 2003)

FWIW...

"is sharp objects pierce it" etc is a far cry from what this line seems to be intrepreted as "any sharp object placed in the bag will instantly and utterly rupture it."

Barring specific reference to this type of fragility, i use the sharp pointy in context... if it is stuck by pointy things with such force as to rupture it, then you have the problem. Putting arrows into a haversack is fine, as long as its done carefully and not significant disruption occurs afterward.

See, these items are meant to do one thing, to alleviate some of the bookkeeping mishmash involved in running a character. thats why amoung other reasons, they are so cheap. Its seems silly to add an item to ease bookkeeping and at the same time overcomplicate its use with "shatters at the very thought of a pointy object" style interpretations.


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## Murrdox (Feb 20, 2003)

As long as my players don't go around shoving bastard swords into their bags of holding, I really don't keep track of it.  I agree that unless you carelessly SHOVE an arrow into a BOH, it won't go and rupture on you.

Heck, I'd even allow a bastard sword to be put into a BOH if it was sheathed.  I'm not going to go worrying whether or not any item put in a bag has pointy corners or whatnot.


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## Kannik (Feb 20, 2003)

*????*

Woah!  Aiya!  Zoiks!  A standard action to draw an arrow from the quiver... I don't remember iffn' earlier versions had that limitation, but I don't recall so, and now I'm wondering iffn' the designers of 3e meant for it to be that way.  I can see it being an MEA to retreave your bow/spear/javelin/whatever from the thing, just like a Bag of Holding (it is an MEA from BoH, yes?  Or is it a standard action as well?), but to have the quiver part need a standard action seems kinda, well, wrong.    Sure, you can carry around two quivers, but it just seems less right that way   Though I do like Hypersmurf's 20+20+20+20 idea.  }

BTW... say you wanted to load up the javelin part with arrows -- how many you figure you could cram in there?  (now those wouldn't be easily accessible, you'd have to move them later to the 'right part of the quiver).  

What else do you figure classifies as 'general shape and size' of a javelin?  Ditto with 'general shape and size of a longbow'?  

Kannik


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## kreynolds (Feb 20, 2003)

*Re: ????*



			
				Kannik said:
			
		

> *What else do you figure classifies as 'general shape and size' of a javelin?  Ditto with 'general shape and size of a longbow'? *




Something 'long and pointy' and 'something long and bendy'.


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## 0-hr (Feb 20, 2003)

Petrosian said:
			
		

> * Putting arrows into a haversack is fine, as long as its done carefully and not significant disruption occurs afterward.
> . *



 I agree completely. The bag will be fine so long as the bearer doesn't do aything foolish like fight for his life, fall down a pit, or leap about without regard to the contents of his backpack....


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## Shard O'Glase (Feb 20, 2003)

once the objects are in the extra dimensional space I don't see how the movement of the doorway like the haversack will effect the objects inside at all.  If they didn't peirce the sides when they were put in they just wont peirce the sides IMO.


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## Hypersmurf (Feb 20, 2003)

You want to hire a pixie building contractor to climb around inside your Haversack wallpapering the extra-dimensional space with something that will prevent accidental tears...

It would have to be fairly light so you didn't cut into your weight allowance too much, so you could still rip the bag if you really tried, but it would allows you to carry your swords and arrows around without worrying too much 

(If you're rich, you could wallpaper it with Darkwood or Mithral...)

-Hyp.


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## Ravellion (Feb 20, 2003)

Ki Ryn said:
			
		

> * I agree completely. The bag will be fine so long as the bearer doesn't do aything foolish like fight for his life, fall down a pit, or leap about without regard to the contents of his backpack.... *



Rav makes his spellcraft check and finds that Ki Ryn casts Irony.

Ie. Good point basically.

Rav


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## Alchemist (Feb 20, 2003)

kreynolds said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I don't. Must have been more than three days ago.  *




It was some time in September.  I just can't seem to stay away from this topic. It's just so terribly engaging.


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## Marshall (Feb 21, 2003)

kreynolds said:
			
		

> *
> EDIT: By the way, whatever you do, don't put your Quiver of Ehlonna into your Heward's Handy Haversack. *




OH? Why not? By the same simple illogic you used to state this insanity, there is no mention of a problem with a QofE and a HHH. The Astral Rift you are infering is only applicable to the BoH and the Portable Hole.

BTW: Read the description again



> the owner can command the quiver each round to produce any stored *items* he or she wishes.




Lets see, all 60 arrows, or Bows or Javelins or...

It takes a standard action to switch compartments(If youre being a snooty DM). Once a compartment is selected, you draw from it as a standard quiver.


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## Hypersmurf (Feb 21, 2003)

> *Lets see, all 60 arrows, or Bows or Javelins or...*




But if you command it to produce all sixty arrows, where do they go?  The quiver isn't _big_ enough for 60 arrows.  You can only fit them all in in the extra-dimensional space... and you get them out of extra-dimensional space by commanding the quiver to produce them...



> *OH? Why not? By the same simple illogic you used to state this insanity, there is no mention of a problem with a QofE and a HHH. The Astral Rift you are infering is only applicable to the BoH and the Portable Hole.*




Now read the description of _Rope Trick_.

-Hyp.


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## kreynolds (Feb 21, 2003)

Marshall said:
			
		

> *OH? Why not? *




Putting an extradimensional space into another extradimensional space is not a good thing. Period. You can house rule it if you don't like it.



			
				Marshall said:
			
		

> *BTW: Read the description again *




I don't need to. If you had been paying attention to this thread, you would have noticed that I even pointed out "items" in a previous post. However, you didn't pay attention. You instead chose to jump the gun with an attitude. I don't appreciate that. Please stop.



			
				Marshall said:
			
		

> *Lets see, all 60 arrows, or Bows or Javelins or...
> 
> It takes a standard action to switch compartments(If youre being a snooty DM). Once a compartment is selected, you draw from it as a standard quiver. *




I'm in agreement with Hypersmurf.


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## Grundle (Feb 21, 2003)

Ravellion said:
			
		

> *Rav makes his spellcraft check and finds that Ki Ryn casts Irony.
> 
> Ie. Good point basically.
> 
> Rav *




Hold on there my little gnomish buddy!

We are talking about an EXTRADIMENSIONAL space.  One could reasonably argue that shaking around the HHH would have absolutely no effect on its contents.  After all the contents are not REALLY in the 3-dimensional space occuppied by the HHH, but somewhere else in an extradimensional space.  

I'd even go so far as to say that turning the HHH upside down and shaking it will not result in its contents spilling out!

But hey, that's just my personal interpretation of of pseudo-physics of extradimensional spaces!


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## kreynolds (Feb 21, 2003)

Grundle said:
			
		

> *I'd even go so far as to say that turning the HHH upside down and shaking it will not result in its contents spilling out! *




You don't have to go so far. The rules already do. Sort of. The BoH doesn't spill out its contents when turned upside down, but it will if turned inside out.


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## Marshall (Feb 21, 2003)

kreynolds said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Putting an extradimensional space into another extradimensional space is not a good thing. Period. You can house rule it if you don't like it.*




Only the BoH and the Portable Hole interact with each other. You can house rule it if you don't like it. IIRC, the line in _Rope Trick_ has been clarified to mean that BoH, Portable Hole, HHH and QofE just dont work inside.




> *I don't need to. If you had been paying attention to this thread, you would have noticed that I even pointed out "items" in a previous post. However, you didn't pay attention. You instead chose to jump the gun with an attitude. I don't appreciate that. Please stop.
> *




Yes, you did. Then you went on and said it _is_ a standard action to draw each arrow. Which is it?



> *But if you command it to produce all sixty arrows, where do they go? The quiver isn't big enough for 60 arrows. You can only fit them all in in the extra-dimensional space... and you get them out of extra-dimensional space by commanding the quiver to produce them...*




They are "produced." All of them. I'd just rule that they are readily available like any normal quiver.


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## Hypersmurf (Feb 21, 2003)

> *Only the BoH and the Portable Hole interact with each other. You can house rule it if you don't like it. IIRC, the line in Rope Trick has been clarified to mean that BoH, Portable Hole, HHH and QofE just dont work inside.*




From the FAQ:
_It’s a general rule that you can’t mix items containing
nondimensional or extradimensional spaces (things that are
bigger inside than out) with each other or with portable holes.
Such combinations tend to strain the fabric of the cosmos.
Putting one bag of holding within another is just like putting
the bag into a portable hole. Items that function like bags of
holding, such as Heward’s handy haversacks, cause the same
mishaps when mishandled._

The FAQ does say that spells such as Rope Trick 'pose no danger' to bags of holding etc, but doesn't explain why... which seems to directly contradict the warning at the end of the spell description (which was not changed in errata).



> *They are "produced." All of them. I'd just rule that they are readily available like any normal quiver. *




But where do they _go_?  And why a standard action to switch compartments?  They're separate compartments - why not command the Quiver to produce 60 arrows, 5 spears, and seven javelins, since you let it hold more in 'available mode' than the size of the Quiver would allow?

-Hyp.


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## kreynolds (Feb 21, 2003)

Marshall said:
			
		

> *Only the BoH and the Portable Hole interact with each other. You can house rule it if you don't like it. *




I don't need to house rule it. The rules support my standpoint.



			
				Marshall said:
			
		

> *Then you went on and said it is a standard action to draw each arrow. *




No, I didn't. I said it is a standard action to activate the quiver. How many items you get out of a single activation is immaterial, as I never said a single activation limits you to one item.



			
				Marshall said:
			
		

> *Which is it? *




The only answer I gave.


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## 0-hr (Feb 21, 2003)

Grundle said:
			
		

> *
> We are talking about an EXTRADIMENSIONAL space.  One could reasonably argue that shaking around the HHH would have absolutely no effect on its contents.  After all the contents are not REALLY in the 3-dimensional space occuppied by the HHH, but somewhere else in an extradimensional space.
> *



 We could also "reasonably" assume that the contents of the haversack are being blown about by the astral wind at a speed comperable to that attained during a long range Teleport spell.  

The issue is simply wheather you (or your DM) think that a bag this cheap should grant a free Quick Draw for every melee weapon and such out there. If you find that balanced, then good for you - nothing I can do to change your mind.

When the rules are ambiguous or open to interpretation, I try to rule on the side of game balance.


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## Kannik (Feb 22, 2003)

*Re: Re: ????*



			
				kreynolds said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Something 'long and pointy' and 'something long and bendy'.  *




-laugh-  Ok, I admit, I walked (nay, ran) into that one }

Moooooore specifically... 'how long' and pointy, and 'how long and bendy'?  Given the phb's illos (which, I know, are not 100% to scale), it appears you could prolly put a halberd into the 'long and bendy' zone (especially since they say spear, and a spear is longer than a comp long bow)... and if you wanted to fill the 'long and pointy' space with 'short and pointy' (ie arrows, though those would need to be moved to the 'questionable value' quiver arrow to be used) do you think you could fit?

Kannik


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## Marshall (Feb 22, 2003)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> *
> 
> From the FAQ:
> It’s a general rule that you can’t mix items containing
> ...




OK, so I remember right in one case and wrong in the other. ;-)




> *But where do they go?  And why a standard action to switch compartments?  They're separate compartments - why not command the Quiver to produce 60 arrows, 5 spears, and seven javelins, since you let it hold more in 'available mode' than the size of the Quiver would allow?
> 
> -Hyp. *




I rule it that they dont "go" anywhere. I guess its the difference between a quiver and a sack or backpack, the stuff in the quiver is always accessable.


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## Hypersmurf (Feb 22, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: ????*



> *Moooooore specifically... 'how long' and pointy?*





Well, I just talked a DM into letting me keep a Duom in mine... 



> *and if you wanted to fill the 'long and pointy' space with 'short and pointy' (ie arrows, though those would need to be moved to the 'questionable value' quiver arrow to be used) do you think you could fit?*




That's not something I'd allow as a DM.  Short and pointy go in the arrow compartment.  They won't fit in the javelin or spear compartment.

-Hyp.


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## nookleer (Apr 28, 2005)

*The Final Word..*

Sorry to be replying to these so late (3 years) into the thread.. but I cant quite understand why people make things so complicated. Hope i am not being redundant.

Drawing something from a Quiver of Elohnna (Efficient Quiver) is a free action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The quiver reacts on the desires of its owner and brings that object to bear, thus the efficient part. There is no logical way to desire 60 arrows at once, although a DM could rule if a player were simple enough to desire all of them at once, then the quiver would "spit them out" messily as it emptied itself.

Having something in your hands is not the same as bringing that object to bear as an efficient weapon. Just because you have a bow and arrow in your hands doesnt mean you are ready to use them. I would rule that you'd need quickdraw to be able to bring the bow to bear fast enough to be a free action. I'd rule the same for HHHaversack with melee weapons, meaning the haversack is convenient enough to allow you to draw the weapon, but you arent coordinated enough to remove the sheath... bring the weapon to bear.. etc. in one smooth efficient movement.

Bags of Holding, Haversacks, Efficient Quivers, etc cannot be brought into a Rope Trick. It might help to see it as a bubble in space (or a tire), like how some lenses seem to make things stretch out. Double stretching an area is too much and reality is pierced (ie the tire pops), "flushing" the extradimensional spaces. The last line of Rope Trick reads,

"It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one."


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## Hypersmurf (Apr 28, 2005)

nookleer said:
			
		

> Bags of Holding, Haversacks, Efficient Quivers, etc cannot be brought into a Rope Trick. It might help to see it as a bubble in space (or a tire), like how some lenses seem to make things stretch out. Double stretching an area is too much and reality is pierced (ie the tire pops), "flushing" the extradimensional spaces. The last line of Rope Trick reads,
> 
> "It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one."




There's argument as to whether an extra-dimensional space is the same as a non-dimensional space.

To confuse things even more, there was an entry in the 3E Main FAQ:

*Will extradimensional items rupture a bag of holding?
The DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide says that a bag of holding
placed within a portable hole tears a rift to the Astral Plane.
Bag and hole alike are then sucked into the void and
forever lost. The DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide also says that
when a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it
opens a gate to the Astral Plane. The hole, the bag, and any
creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there,
destroying the portable hole and bag of holding in the
process. However, the description for Heward’s handy
haversack makes no mention of any rifts or gates. This
implies that only the combination of a bag of holding and
portable hole forms a rift or gate. Thus, a bag of holding
could be placed inside another bag of holding with no
unusual effects.*

_It’s a general rule that you can’t mix items containing
nondimensional or extradimensional spaces (things that are
bigger inside than out) with each other or with portable holes.
Such combinations tend to strain the fabric of the cosmos.
Putting one bag of holding within another is just like putting
the bag into a portable hole. Items that function like bags of
holding, such as Heward’s handy haversacks, cause the same
mishaps when mishandled.

Note you can freely go plane hopping with portable holes,
bags of holding, and the like. Spells that produce their own
extradimensional spaces, such as rope trick, pose no danger to
occupants who may be using portable holes, bags of holding, 
and the like._

... which seems to directly contradict the Rope Trick spell description.

-Hyp.


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## nookleer (Apr 28, 2005)

*Hmm..*

People are human and make mistakes.. 

I guess they just didnt take it into account or wanted to keep things simple...

Still.. i think it would be simpler just to make extra and nondimensional spaces non-overlappable. There is no reason one couldnt go dimension hopping into "real" dimensions, as their reality is stable and held together by magics far too powerful to be interrupted by normal mortal effects. The Rope trick thing should still hold though.


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## Shellman (Apr 29, 2005)

RedSwan78 said:
			
		

> Hmm.. pretty much figured it would be a MEA to put things back in it, but wanted to see what others had to say, or if I was missing something.. hehe
> 
> As for the  "like a bag of holding", a Bag of Holding says:
> 
> ...




One of my character's is using a Quiver of Ehlonna to store three different Great Swords in it. So i have a different Great Sword for alll occasions. Makes things pretty nifty when I finally run into that incorpereal creature no one else can hit, I just whip out the Ghost Touch Great Sword and proceed to waste the bad guy.


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## drothgery (Apr 29, 2005)

Shellman said:
			
		

> One of my character's is using a Quiver of Ehlonna to store three different Great Swords in it. So i have a different Great Sword for alll occasions. Makes things pretty nifty when I finally run into that incorpereal creature no one else can hit, I just whip out the Ghost Touch Great Sword and proceed to waste the bad guy.




That sounds a lot cooler than what my Scout 3/Ftr 2 is doing; he's just keeping a few extra bows around in cases he loses his gauntlets of ogre power (which let him use the +4 Str, +2 bow that's his primary weapon) or otherwise gets his Str knocked down (so he keeps a standard-pull bow in the QofE along with a masterwork, +3 Str one).


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## aimster (Apr 30, 2005)

Shellman said:
			
		

> One of my character's is using a Quiver of Ehlonna to store three different Great Swords in it. So i have a different Great Sword for alll occasions. Makes things pretty nifty when I finally run into that incorpereal creature no one else can hit, I just whip out the Ghost Touch Great Sword and proceed to waste the bad guy.




I've got a Wizard who is filling one with wands, rods and (eventually) staff or 3.

The Aimster


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## ARandomGod (May 4, 2005)

While activating a magic item is a standard action, the Efficient Quivver* is a use activated item, so that you don't have to activate it yourself, it simply is active. You can, of course, turn it off if you wish to spend a standard action to turn off it's ability to produce whatever item you want, and then you may at some later point wish to spend a standard action to turn the item back on. But generally it's effect remains always on, and so the items are produced as you will it. Your GM may make up whatever special rules he wants to determine what sort of action thinking takes for your character.

Rupturing a bag of holding or other extradimensional space. Now this one is something that it clearly states can happen. But it doesn't say how. Personally I say that unless you're intentionally attempting to rupture the bag from the inside, then the bag can hold as many sharps as it wants. But if you grabbed a sword and attempted to hit the edges of the bag from the inside, the bag would definitely rupture. 

Now, as for the Haversack producing items as a free action... how about this. Tie a ring around the outside of the haversack. Attach to this ring several small (~2.5 ft) chains, and on the other side of each chain attach a seperate wand. Put the wands inside the haversack. You can then reach into the haversack and get whatever wand you want as a free action... use the wand as a standard action, and drop the wand as a free action. Once you've done this, have your familiar** use it's move action and standard action to retrieve the wand and replace the wand in the haversack. Presto! One more use for a familiar.

*Note: intentional misspelling as opposed to my frequent unintentional ones, I like to spell it that way.

**It must be a familiar capably of performing such manipulations, obviously. Like a rat or a ferret/weasel.


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## Lord Pendragon (May 4, 2005)

ARandomGod said:
			
		

> While activating a magic item is a standard action, the Efficient Quivver* is a use activated item, so that you don't have to activate it yourself, it simply is active. You can, of course, turn it off if you wish to spend a standard action to turn off it's ability to produce whatever item you want, and then you may at some later point wish to spend a standard action to turn the item back on. But generally it's effect remains always on, and so the items are produced as you will it. Your GM may make up whatever special rules he wants to determine what sort of action thinking takes for your character.



I'm not sure you can actually turn off a use-activated item, but you're certainly right in that retrieving an item from the Quiver does not require a standard action.  







			
				srd said:
			
		

> Once the owner has filled it, the quiver can produce any item she wishes, as if from a regular quiver or scabbard.



So you fill it up, then you can pull arrows from it as if it were a normal quiver, and pull weapons from it as if it were a normal sheath (meaning as a move action or combined with a move.)







> Rupturing a bag of holding or other extradimensional space. Now this one is something that it clearly states can happen. But it doesn't say how. Personally I say that unless you're intentionally attempting to rupture the bag from the inside, then the bag can hold as many sharps as it wants. But if you grabbed a sword and attempted to hit the edges of the bag from the inside, the bag would definitely rupture.



I rule differently.  If you throw a drawn sword in the quiver, there's a chance of rupture.  If you throw a sheathed sword in the quiver, there isn't.  I see no reason why the bag should be indestructible unless you want to rupture it.  If that were the case, no reason to make a big deal about sharp objects in the first place.  Just say it can't be pierced from the inside.







> Now, as for the Haversack producing items as a free action... how about this. Tie a ring around the outside of the haversack. Attach to this ring several small (~2.5 ft) chains, and on the other side of each chain attach a seperate wand. Put the wands inside the haversack. You can then reach into the haversack and get whatever wand you want as a free action... use the wand as a standard action, and drop the wand as a free action. Once you've done this, have your familiar** use it's move action and standard action to retrieve the wand and replace the wand in the haversack. Presto! One more use for a familiar.



I love this idea!  Though I'd simplify it to just handing the wand to the familiar after use, then letting the familiar put the wand away, without all the chains and rings and such.  But great idea.  Anything to make familiars more useful. 


> **It must be a familiar capably of performing such manipulations, obviously. Like a rat or a ferret/weasel.



Actually, I see no reason why a hawk/owl/raven couldn't grab a wand in its beak and stow the item.  Unless you took the time to close the top of the haversack after you pulled the wand out...


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## ARandomGod (May 5, 2005)

Lord Pendragon said:
			
		

> I'm I rule differently.  If you throw a drawn sword in the quiver, there's a chance of rupture.  If you throw a sheathed sword in the quiver, there isn't.  I see no reason why the bag should be indestructible unless you want to rupture it.  If that were the case, no reason to make a big deal about sharp objects in the first place.  Just say it can't be pierced from the inside.




I think that's the most common rule. And, if you _throw_ a drawn sword in, even my proposed ruling would give it a chance of rupturing. On the other hand, I can stow a drawn sharpened sword in a canvas bag without it piercing that bag easily. So why would it pierce a quiver or bag of holding just by being placed inside it? The only reason I can think of is because of the sword's weight. And here, I think, is where my thought process may differ from many other people's. A bag of holding can hold a LOT of weight. In my interpretation that weight is completely cancelled out, but the bag itself weighs a certain amount. A type one bag, for instance, weight 15 lbs, empty or full. It can carry 250 lbs. Now, from personal experience, if all that 250 lbs is pushing against the inside side of the bag, a 'sharp' corner doesn't have to be very sharp. The edge of a cardboard box will break that fabric. Not even necessarily a new cardboard box with the sharpest edge. That edge could be blunted to the size of a nickel, and it would still break. If that's not going to happen, then it's because the weight doesn't matter, and if the weight doesn't matter, then once again I can place a very, very sharp sword in even a cotton bag without piercing it!



			
				Lord Pendragon said:
			
		

> I love this idea!  Though I'd simplify it to just handing the wand to the familiar after use, then letting the familiar put the wand away, without all the chains and rings and such.  But great idea.  Anything to make familiars more useful.




That depends on if you want to move after taking your standard action. In my groups at any rate they've ruled that 'handing something off to someone' is a move action. And it's a move action for them to accept it.  So dropping it and having it retrieved is the only way to go if you need to also use your move action. Personally I think that's a little harsh, and if they're going to spend a move action to accept it then it should be able to be considered a free action to hand it off, just like dropping it.

Still, it's a lovely idea, isn't it? I came up with it mostly in conjunction with an Eberron character I'm making... who's only going to have one level of spellcaster (going dragon disciple) and therefore can make good use of wands... Now look at the "eternal wand" in Eberron. 2 uses a day, unlimited 'charges'. Only up to third level spells, but still. For a character with only one caster level it's a benifit that it uses the wand's caster level. Turning retrieval and storage of a wand into a completely free action is just awesome.



			
				Lord Pendragon said:
			
		

> Actually, I see no reason why a hawk/owl/raven couldn't grab a wand in its beak and stow the item.  Unless you took the time to close the top of the haversack after you pulled the wand out...




I agree with you. But some GM's won't. If birds couldn't handle and manipulate sticks, they'd be pretty terrible nest builders, wouldn't they?


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## Lord Pendragon (May 6, 2005)

ARandomGod said:
			
		

> If that's not going to happen, then it's because the weight doesn't matter, and if the weight doesn't matter, then once again I can place a very, very sharp sword in even a cotton bag without piercing it!



Hrm.  That's a good point.  And ruling it your way cuts a little more of the nitpicking out of my adjudication, which I like.  No need to worry about whether the sword is sheathed or not when put into the bag.







> That depends on if you want to move after taking your standard action. In my groups at any rate they've ruled that 'handing something off to someone' is a move action. And it's a move action for them to accept it.  So dropping it and having it retrieved is the only way to go if you need to also use your move action. Personally I think that's a little harsh, and if they're going to spend a move action to accept it then it should be able to be considered a free action to hand it off, just like dropping it.



Aaaah.  My groups tend to be very lenient when it comes to passing things off, whether it be between hands or between characters.  So there's no need for us to worry about designing a system to convert "passing off" into "dropping" to save actions.







> Still, it's a lovely idea, isn't it? I came up with it mostly in conjunction with an Eberron character I'm making... who's only going to have one level of spellcaster (going dragon disciple) and therefore can make good use of wands... Now look at the "eternal wand" in Eberron. 2 uses a day, unlimited 'charges'. Only up to third level spells, but still. For a character with only one caster level it's a benifit that it uses the wand's caster level. Turning retrieval and storage of a wand into a completely free action is just awesome.



It is.  I need to remember this the next time I get a chance to play a full wizard, even.  I love the idea of a familiar sitting on my wizard's shoulder like a nurse in an operation.  "Fireball!" "Mrowr!"  "Lightning Bolt!" "Mrooowr!"  Very nice.


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## Elephant (May 6, 2005)

Ki Ryn said:
			
		

> Also, a really nasty (and smart) villian could hire some goblin archers (with their handy True Strike potions) to shoot an arrow or two in the heroe's backbacks (striking a worn object). Can you imagine the woe and anquish when the bag is pierced and all of it's contents are lost forever?




Err...Potions of True Strike are impossible by the RAW (range: personal spells can't be made into potions).


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## apesamongus (May 6, 2005)

ARandomGod said:
			
		

> While activating a magic item is a standard action, the Efficient Quivver* is a use activated item, so that you don't have to activate it yourself, it simply is active.



That's how I would read it.


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## dcollins (May 6, 2005)

Yay, my favorite monster... _Undead Thread, armed with Potions of True Strike._


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## ARandomGod (May 6, 2005)

Elephant said:
			
		

> Err...Potions of True Strike are impossible by the RAW (range: personal spells can't be made into potions).




Heheh. OK, replace "potion" with "elixer".

You know, I feel compelled to point out that it's rulings like this that originally prompted me to say that Brew Potion is a completely wasted feat. Craft wonderous item can do everything it can do, and more. It can even make 'potions', although they're techincally labeled "elixers" and "oils", etcetera.


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