# {Settings Tournament} Round 5 - Finals! Greyhawk vs. Planescape



## Mercurius (Dec 10, 2013)

And so it comes to this. The grand finale for the EN World favorite D&D setting - five days to vote.


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## Tovec (Dec 10, 2013)

I'm a little disappointed there was no option for BOTH. They aren't incompatible and were mostly the same setting during 3e's run (to my knowledge).

That being said, *Greyhawk*. With that I can still use the planar stuff I want but I prefer it much more as a setting. I prefer my fantasy settings with bits and pieces of the planes mixed in for colourful effect and flavour. I don't need a full planescape setting because I've tried doing a plane game before and it was poorly received and I probably won't do it again.

And as far as Greyhawk, I think the merits of the setting have been raised already in the previous rounds of this tournament and in the recent threads about 5e setting support. I think it is a good, rich, setting and has many little bits to play around with. It also has uninvolved super NPCs so that the players aren't being overshadowed - all things I enjoy, so it gets my vote.

EDIT: Wow. 9-2. Just wow. Early lead, I wonder what it'll look like tomorrow morning.. this morning.. later..?


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## Raith5 (Dec 10, 2013)

Tovec said:


> Wow. 9-2. Just wow. Early lead, I wonder what it'll look like tomorrow morning.. this morning.. later..?




Dont worry the good townsfolk of Sigil have not woken up yet...


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## Li Shenron (Dec 10, 2013)

I voted *Planescape*.

It's a known fact that a lot of people love it and a lot of others hate it, but at least it's got personality.

Greyhawk for me is well done but always a bit boring.


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## MasterTrancer (Dec 10, 2013)

*R: {Settings Tournament} Round 5 - Finals! Greyhawk vs. Planescape*

I am all for Planescape, though I must say that I don't know Greyhawk much. Sigil has been my prominent base for playing (A)D&D, and can't help going back to that times with a tinge of homesickness.
3ED has seen me playing (instead of mastering) in an home-wrought setting, loosely based on Eberron and for little time.

That said, I loved Planescape for the sheer possibilities, for the capability of creating settings and plots to suit my players...and my mood!


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## steeldragons (Dec 10, 2013)

It's no surprise that Planescape will win.

I think that is the direct result of the collection of persons who frequent this forum/site. There is a vocal unabashed fanbase for it here. 

I do not think, necessarily, that translates to it being the most popular setting in D&D TTRPG fandom as a whole.

I voted Greyhawk...but still expect PS will ultimately win.


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## Jan van Leyden (Dec 10, 2013)

Like [MENTION=92511]steeldragons[/MENTION] said: I voted Greyhawk but would be surprised if it wins against SJ.


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## Alzrius (Dec 10, 2013)

This was a tough choice for me. Very tough.

I ultimately went with Planescape because it includes Greyhawk, and every other 2E setting, as part of its backdrop, so it's the closest option to having both. It's also a setting that I enjoy for what it actually is, whereas I think part of my affection for Greyhawk is as an idea.


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## the Jester (Dec 10, 2013)

Greyhawk. 

It's what I cut my gaming teeth on. Planescape is awesome, but I missed it at the time- one of the only lines of D&D material I'm sad I didn't buy on release- and to me, the many years of GH gaming that I played or ran just have too many awesome memories not to vote for them.


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## Hussar (Dec 10, 2013)

steeldragons said:


> It's no surprise that Planescape will win.
> 
> I think that is the direct result of the collection of persons who frequent this forum/site. There is a vocal unabashed fanbase for it here.
> 
> ...




This.


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## JRRNeiklot (Dec 10, 2013)

Greyhawk ftw.  I have never seen the draw of Planescape.  I thought it was horrible, plus the vernacular was a huge turn off.


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## Lindeloef (Dec 10, 2013)

Jan van Leyden said:


> Like steeldragons said: I voted Greyhawk but would be surprised if it wins against SJ.




That is a total shocker for me 

----

right now it is a nice equal race between the two. Cause I don't care for either of those settings, my vote is open to buy for either side


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## TwoSix (Dec 10, 2013)

It's funny how the race came down to the poster child of generic D&D-style fantasy worlds and the poster child of gonzo D&D-style fantasy worlds.  

If I have to choose between generic and gonzo, I go gonzo every time.


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## billd91 (Dec 10, 2013)

Funny how a setting with White Plume Mountain, a crashed spaceship, a mad archmage turned demigod thanks to a device that captures other deities, and portals to pocket realms with giant apes and cheshire cats can be considered less gonzo than Planescape. My vote is for *Greyhawk*.


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## Halivar (Dec 10, 2013)

billd91 said:


> Funny how a setting with White Plume Mountain, a crashed spaceship, a mad archmage turned demigod thanks to a device that captures other deities, and portals to pocket realms with giant apes and cheshire cats can be considered less gonzo than Planescape. My vote is for *Greyhawk*.



Take it as an indicator of just how gonzo Planescape is.


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## TarionzCousin (Dec 10, 2013)

TwoSix said:


> If I have to choose between generic and gonzo, I go gonzo every time.



Gonzo thanks you.







I voted Planescape because I love the setting and have enjoyed it tremendously--but I think Greyhawk will win (it is currently leading 48 to 45).


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## MoonSong (Dec 10, 2013)

Ah!! I can't just decide!!


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## Jan van Leyden (Dec 10, 2013)

Lindeloef said:


> right now it is a nice equal race between the two. Cause I don't care for either of those settings, my vote is open to buy for either side




How about this, my friend: if you vote for Greyhawk, I'll offer your character the Hand of Vecna should one of your character ever stumble onto this world!


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## Lindeloef (Dec 10, 2013)

Jan van Leyden said:


> How about this, my friend: if you vote for Greyhawk, I'll offer your character the Hand of Vecna should one of your character ever stumble onto this world!




You had me at Hello.


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## Abraxas (Dec 10, 2013)

Voted Greyhawk, although not my favorite, it is hands down the preferable option of the 2 remaining choices.
I've always disliked Planescape's art and the fans around my neck of the woods are ... annoying at best.


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## athos (Dec 10, 2013)

It always surprises me when people that started gaming in the 90's or later call Greyhawk a generic world.  I guess that is because they weren't around in the late 70's and early 80's when it was THE world of AD&D, which was THE game.  Granted, it has been imitated and copied to death over the years, making people who weren't around for the original run believe that it isn't anything special.  I am old enough to remember the double digit dragon magazines where the world of Greyhawk got an article each month going into more detail, they were great.  I was also thrilled when 3rd edition and Living Greyhawk gave new life to the world.  How many settings are good enough to make a comeback after 20+ years?

Sigh...  miss my Living Greyhawk and miss the shiny new feel I had for the world 30+ years ago.  Guess I am just old now


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## Shemeska (Dec 10, 2013)

I encountered Planescape pretty early in my exposure to D&D (Planescape: Torment, and a friend running us through 'Squaring the Circle' from the 'Hellbound: The Blood War' box set), and it remains one of my favorite settings, and easily my largest inspiration when it comes to gaming and game design.

It's also responsible for getting me into writing and then into freelancing in this crazy industry.

Now vote for Planescape or I start posting in-character. 


*Vote! The Chibi Lady of Pain commands it! *



(I did not create the LoP chibi. I don't actually recall who did sadly. Someone on the WotC forums circa 2003, if you know, gimme the dark of it)


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## Quickleaf (Dec 10, 2013)

I don't know...I just don't know...

On one hand Greyhawk is iconic to D&D, has a great middle fantasy political feel, and has some gonzo-ness.
OTOH, Greyhawk is more of a traditional D&D setting which seems to be what FR is going for with D&D Next. OTOOH why not have two flavors of traditional D&D? Greyhawk is awesome.

On one hand, Planescape provides a flavorful way to connect worlds, has a great jaded otherworldliness feel, and has gonzo up the wazoo. OTOH the jargon and strangeness can be alienating. OTOOH there is nothing quite like Planescape out there. Planescape is awesome, berk.

I'm going to vote Planescape since its losing as of this moment...however if WotC were to produce an actual setting book I think it should be Greyhawk, since Planescape can always be subsumed by the Manual of the Planes.


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## GSHamster (Dec 11, 2013)

I think it's fitting that these are the last two settings. They are both excellent settings, and excellent in different ways.

Greyhawk is the most iconic and _solid_ setting of D&D. Planescape is the wildest and most imaginative setting.

Greyhawk is like an excellent steak, while Planescape is an outrageous dessert (probably some sort of flambe).

I voted Planescape, but I won't be unhappy if Greyhawk wins.


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## MerricB (Dec 11, 2013)

Planescape promoted a clique of players that did their best to drive away people from D&D.

Definitely Greyhawk - there's are reasons I've set my campaigns for the past twenty years there.

Cheers!


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## Mercurius (Dec 11, 2013)

MerricB said:


> Planescape promoted a clique of players that did their best to drive away people from D&D.




Woah. There's a story there that I'm not aware of but would be interested in hearing more of.

As for me, I couldn't decide at first because I don't love either setting, but ended up voting for Greyhawk for two reasons: One, it felt like classic D&D with all of itstropes and iconic modules and flat-out nostalgia vs. TSR's answer to the World of Darkness. While I really like certain aspects of Planescape, a few of its qualities - the slang (e.g. "berk") and the pseudo-WoD stuff - are a bit off-putting to me.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Dec 11, 2013)

The one, the only, the original ... *GREYHAWK!*


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## MerricB (Dec 11, 2013)

Mercurius said:


> Woah. There's a story there that I'm not aware of but would be interested in hearing more of.
> 
> While I really like certain aspects of Planescape, a few of its qualities - the slang (e.g. "berk") and the pseudo-WoD stuff - are a bit off-putting to me.




The slang is a large part of it. It made a clique: those who were versed in Planescape, and those that weren't. When I see someone calling someone else a berk, I find it extremely insulting.


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## Ratskinner (Dec 11, 2013)

I gotta go with Planescape here. Greyhawk to me always felt too....something...contrived maybe? Silly in all the wrong ways, for me. Everything about Planescape oozed cool (for those days, anyway), and I still like the art. Silly in all the right ways, for me.


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## dd.stevenson (Dec 11, 2013)

MerricB said:


> The slang is a large part of it. It made a clique: those who were versed in Planescape, and those that weren't. When I see someone calling someone else a berk, I find it extremely insulting.



I don't want to come off like I'm belittling your feelings, but I _never ever _had you pegged for someone who would take that kind of thing seriously. It must have been a very real problem within certain market segments for you to react this strongly.


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## Quickleaf (Dec 11, 2013)

GSHamster said:


> I think it's fitting that these are the last two settings. They are both excellent settings, and excellent in different ways.
> 
> Greyhawk is the most iconic and _solid_ setting of D&D. Planescape is the wildest and most imaginative setting.
> 
> ...




I endorse your metaphor  They are both excellent (and radically different) settings. I remember the heraldry and adventures from Greyhawk, and DiTerlizzi's art and philosophical intrigue in Planescape.  I, like you, am happy to see either win.

As far as what WotC *should* publish for 5e after the Forgotten Realms? I would probably say the original *Greyhawk *(not the redone version) as setting #2 or #3, which seems to generate the most interest and nostalgia among aging gamers. An earnest update of the Greyhawk setting to 5e without radically changing anything major would be where I'd bet my money.


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## MarkB (Dec 11, 2013)

MerricB said:


> The slang is a large part of it. It made a clique: those who were versed in Planescape, and those that weren't. When I see someone calling someone else a berk, I find it extremely insulting.




I can see how that could be offputting, but I never felt anywhere near as excluded from Planescape as I did from Forgotten Realms. As a new player coming to the game in late 3.0 era, it felt like I was expected to spend six months absorbing all the FR setting books and reading, at the very least, every novel R.A. Salvatore ever wrote before I'd be considered qualified to adventure in the setting, let alone DM it.


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## Hussar (Dec 11, 2013)

MarkB said:


> I can see how that could be offputting, but I never felt anywhere near as excluded from Planescape as I did from Forgotten Realms. As a new player coming to the game in late 3.0 era, it felt like I was expected to spend six months absorbing all the FR setting books and reading, at the very least, every novel R.A. Salvatore ever wrote before I'd be considered qualified to adventure in the setting, let alone DM it.




To be fair, this is precisely how I feel about PS.  Every time any conversation comes up about any planar elements, I get the very strong sense that there's a deep well of material, much of it out of print, that I have to bone up on before I could even begin playing in PS.

Heck, I even gave it a try, with an excellent DM, and I still just don't get it.  Fantastic adventure, excellent group, but, the setting just does nothing for me.

While I might think that Merric is being a tad harsh, I can totally see what he's saying.  All you have to do is look at every single PS thread for the past three years and you'll see exactly what he's talking about.


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## MerricB (Dec 11, 2013)

MarkB said:


> I can see how that could be offputting, but I never felt anywhere near as excluded from Planescape as I did from Forgotten Realms. As a new player coming to the game in late 3.0 era, it felt like I was expected to spend six months absorbing all the FR setting books and reading, at the very least, every novel R.A. Salvatore ever wrote before I'd be considered qualified to adventure in the setting, let alone DM it.




Indeed, that was a key consideration of why Wizards did what they did with the 4E Realms! Lots of canonical material is tough... especially when you're expected to adhere to it. (I mean, I was playing D&D and getting the Realms stuff when it first came out, but I left it in the 2E era for Greyhawk, and there is so much stuff I now don't know). Of course, then jettisoning it causes problems...

Settings tend to accumulate stuff, and most detailed ones are horribly intimidating for new players.

These days, I'm very fond of how Catalyst handles the BattleTech line: they release supplements for *any* of the eras, depending on what takes their fancy. So, you'll have most of the supplements being for the current era, but then they'll happily do a couple of supplements for past eras!


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## Dice4Hire (Dec 11, 2013)

> I can see how that could be offputting, but I never felt anywhere near as excluded from Planescape as I did from Forgotten Realms. As a new player coming to the game in late 3.0 era, it felt like I was expected to spend six months absorbing all the FR setting books and reading, at the very least, every novel R.A. Salvatore ever wrote before I'd be considered qualified to adventure in the setting, let alone DM it.




I was put off FR for much the same reason. The canon gods annoyed the living ... out of me. Players with no knowledge scores who had memorized everything, and could not eve, for any reason, have anything go against canon.

I still dread running in FR online. My own play group has no such problems. 

As for me, I went with Greyhawk. Planescape never did anything for me. I never liked the great wheel cosmology.


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## steeldragons (Dec 11, 2013)

Shemeska said:


> Now vote for Planescape or I start posting in-character. View attachment 59963




No disrespect, Shemeska...I've seen you post this before and...I don't get it.

I mean, I can infer from the context this is meant as some kind of jokey/cutesy "threat." 

I just don't get it.

To what is it referring...and why should I be [faux] "intimidated" or "scared" if you want to "post in character"?



Shemeska said:


> *Vote! The Chibi Lady of Pain commands it! *
> 
> View attachment 59962
> 
> (I did not create the LoP chibi. I don't actually recall who did sadly. Someone on the WotC forums circa 2003, if you know, gimme the dark of it)




Cute cartoon, whoever did it. Very Invader Zim. Though I've never understood the "omgkewlniss!" folks have for the Lady of Pointy Showgirl Headdresses. *shrug* Each their own, as in all things D&D.


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## Kinak (Dec 11, 2013)

One of my favorite settings up against a setting that does absolutely nothing for me. I guess that's not a difficult decision.

I'm the flip side of folks upthread talking about how they never "got" Planescape. Greyhawk was never anything more to me than someone else's homebrew D&D world. I never got the appeal.

On the other hand, it's also _the classic_ D&D setting, so I can't begrudge it winning.

Cheers!
Kinak


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## Mercurius (Dec 11, 2013)

Looks like Greyhawk is pulling away. 

Anyhow, some of the comments above help clarify my thoughts about Planescape. I love the idea of it - I love the trope of the "crossroads of worlds" city, with numerous factions and a diversity of settings (planes) to play in. But I find the Planescape vibe off-putting. As I said earlier, it seems obviously created with the World of Darkness in mind, and some of the tonal qualities of Planescape that I don't like are similar to those I don't like in WoD, namely the "faux-goth" darkness-is-kewl thing which is exemplified by the Lady of Pain, who seems like a goth pre-teen magnified to divine power. I find myself reminded of the SNL skit, _Goth Talk.

_I don't mind goths, it just isn't my thing. I'm not saying Planescape is goth, but it has tinges of it and related tones. In fact, its the same tones that turned me off of Sandman and Neil Gaiman in general, and the vinyl-clothing-and-white-dreadlocks-and-katanas-galore of the Matrix. 

Then, on the other side, you have "berk" etc, which is a bit too campy for my liking. In between both - the gothish and the campy - you have a really cool setting that, on its own, would win out over Greyhawk for me. But its just too obfuscated.

Now if Everway had been a D&D setting, that would have gotten my vote. I liked its mystical, cosmopolitan feel, which is more mythic and universal, less dated (Planescape is very 90s).


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## Nagol (Dec 11, 2013)

steeldragons said:


> No disrespect, Shemeska...I've seen you post this before and...I don't get it.
> 
> I mean, I can infer from the context this is meant as some kind of jokey/cutesy "threat."
> 
> ...




IIRC, Shemeska is a powerful yugoloth (NE outsiders aka daemons in earlier editions).  She is a very rich, very influential member of the inner circles of Sigil who focuses on information gathering and brokering.


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## steeldragons (Dec 11, 2013)

Nagol said:


> IIRC, Shemeska is a powerful yugoloth (NE outsiders aka daemons in earlier editions).  She is a very rich, very influential member of the inner circles of Sigil who focuses on information gathering and brokering.




Ah. Well, that explains it. Never been to/played in Sigil, nor likely ever will.

But, at least, now I know the reference. Thanks. 

Nothing to see here. Carry on.


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## TerraDave (Dec 11, 2013)

In the "day" I found planescape, or at least its marketing, to be nothing but annoying.

Years latter, I have a player who is a big fan, again from the day. His tiefling rogue is a cager (see, I have started doing it) I mean from Sigil. And now the party has just arrived in Sigil. Having studied up, I now get it. Lots of adventure opportunities, to say the least, with a very distinct vibe. 

But it is true, berk is an insult. (Basher or cutter is OK, and clueless can actually be appropriate, depending). 

And I still voted for Greyhawk.


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## Imaro (Dec 11, 2013)

I like both Greyhawk and Planescape (and it would be great if they were both given setting books, or lines with D&D Next),  but ultimately I voted for PS.  I just feel PS is the one setting that feels truly unique to D&D, it's a setting I don't feel can be summed up by saying "D&D's take on..." or "faux medieval european fantasy +" I like GH but at the end of the day it is a faux medieval europe fantasy setting... + ... a little more sword and sorcery in the mix vs. high fantasy (which seems to be FR's niche).  

IMO, Planescape is nearly boundless in the types of adventures it can support, default dungeon delving in alien ruins on strange vistas, exploration of the higher and lower planes as an agent of a god or demon,  political maneuverings as a representative of one of the numerous organizations in Sigil, or even the ideological battles to shape the multiverse on alternate prime material planes... On top of that it is the one of the few settings where it feels right that a party with a racial make up like mos eisley's cantina walks around and doesn't get a second look.  Even the cant, for an American like myself made the setting feel slightly exotic, alien and cool.  All IMO, of course.


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## DMZ2112 (Dec 11, 2013)

steeldragons said:


> It's no surprise that Planescape will win.




THE PROPHECY HAS BEEN FULF- wait, what?



Jan van Leyden said:


> How about this, my friend: if you vote for Greyhawk, I'll offer your character the Hand of Vecna should one of your character ever stumble onto this world!




Vecna?  Oh, yeah, that guy.  He came to Sigil once.  We beat him.  



Shemeska said:


> *Vote! The Chibi Lady of Pain commands it! *
> 
> View attachment 59962




That's not a chibi-Lady of Pain -- that's a Jhonen Vasquez-style Lady of Pain!  Planar's blood marches through my veins like giant RADIOACTIVE RUBBER PANTS! The pants command me! _Do not ignore my veins!_



MerricB said:


> The slang is a large part of it. It made a clique: those who were versed in Planescape, and those that weren't. When I see someone calling someone else a berk, I find it extremely insulting.




Given what it actually means I can't believe they published it in the Commonwealth.

That said, there's a lot more to versing yourself in Planescape than memorizing the page on cant.  That's like saying someone is versed in Greyhawk because they memorized the weather pattern tables.

That's right, I went there; your setting is boring.


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## Brock Landers (Dec 11, 2013)

Interesting that the final two are the closest as settings, _Greyhawk_ lore is a foundation of _Planescape_.

I voted _Planescape _(having an ongoing campaign of 8 years set in it has nothing to do with it!).


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## Brock Landers (Dec 11, 2013)

DMZ2112 said:


> THE PROPHECY HAS BEEN FULF- wait, what?
> 
> 
> 
> ...





As an English person The Cant was just a lot of slang my mum uses: barmy, berk, potty, etc.

_Planescape_ is not The Cant for me, at all.


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## steeldragons (Dec 11, 2013)

DMZ2112 said:


> THE PROPHECY HAS BEEN FULF- wait, what?




Indeed! I am, honestly, shocked at the gap...and that PS is on the side of it that it is.



DMZ2112 said:


> Planar's blood marches through my veins like giant RADIOACTIVE RUBBER PANTS! The pants command me! _Do not ignore my veins!_




Would those be the veins...in your pants?

That's right, I went there. ;P


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## Zardnaar (Dec 11, 2013)

I like both but voted for Grewhawk due to one word.

Berk.

 Grewhawk wins for me right there I hated the PS lingo.


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## TarionzCousin (Dec 11, 2013)

Jan van Leyden said:


> How about this, my friend: if you vote for Greyhawk, I'll offer your character the Hand of Vecna should one of your character ever stumble onto this world!






Lindeloef said:


> You had me at Hello.



Wait! If you vote Planescape, I will offer your character the Head of Vecna!


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## MarkB (Dec 11, 2013)

TarionzCousin said:


> Wait! If you vote Planescape, I will offer your character the Head of Vecna!




I'll go one better, and offer you this stylish Lady of Pain idol complete with detailed instructions on how to petition her to grant you favours and blessings. You're guaranteed to be amazed.


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## TwoSix (Dec 11, 2013)

MarkB said:


> You're guaranteed to be a*maze*d.



Well played.


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## Akillion (Dec 11, 2013)

Somehow, for me anyway, Greyhawk just has the D&D vibe I'm looking for


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## Savage Wombat (Dec 11, 2013)

I can't begrudge Greyhawk for winning, but it seems to me more like the consensus / compromise position rather than a majority preference.

And I've never seen as much mindless Planescape boosterism as I have anti-Planescape grumbling.


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## billd91 (Dec 11, 2013)

Savage Wombat said:


> I can't begrudge Greyhawk for winning, but it seems to me more like the consensus / compromise position rather than a majority preference.
> 
> And I've never seen as much mindless Planescape boosterism as I have anti-Planescape grumbling.




How does dislike for Planescape invalidate that Greyhawk is currently polling a majority in this poll? If they don't like PS, if they're going to vote (not voting is always an option if you don't like either choice) for the alternative. Moreover, is there something about Planescape grumbling that makes it invalid? I don't like the patois Planescape affected and didn't bother buying much of the product line despite liking the DiTerlizzi art a lot. Reading the material was just too much of an irritation. So of course I'm not going to vote for PS against any campaign setting I like better. Is there something wrong with posting that opinion?


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## Savage Wombat (Dec 11, 2013)

billd91 said:


> How does dislike for Planescape invalidate that Greyhawk is currently polling a majority in this poll? If they don't like PS, if they're going to vote (not voting is always an option if you don't like either choice) for the alternative. Moreover, is there something about Planescape grumbling that makes it invalid? I don't like the patois Planescape affected and didn't bother buying much of the product line despite liking the DiTerlizzi art a lot. Reading the material was just too much of an irritation. So of course I'm not going to vote for PS against any campaign setting I like better. Is there something wrong with posting that opinion?




You quoted my post, but you seem to be responding to a completely different post.  Why should stating my opinion suggest that I'm implying your opinion is somehow invalid?


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## Ahnehnois (Dec 11, 2013)

Savage Wombat said:


> I can't begrudge Greyhawk for winning, but it seems to me more like the consensus / compromise position rather than a majority preference.



That kind of matches the broader reality though. That's why it was chosen as the default for 3e, not because it's the best setting ever dreamed up, but because everyone can live with it.


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## TarionzCousin (Dec 11, 2013)

Ahnehnois said:


> That kind of matches the broader reality though. That's why it was chosen as the default for 3e, not because it's the best setting ever dreamed up, but because everyone can live with it.



Even cannibal halflings....?


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## Nagol (Dec 11, 2013)

TarionzCousin said:


> Even cannibal halflings....?




The only setting I recall having cannibal Halflings is _Dark Sun_.  Did something get added to Greyhawk during/after the war arc?


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## Jan van Leyden (Dec 11, 2013)

TarionzCousin said:


> Wait! If you vote Planescape, I will offer your character the Head of Vecna!




Nice try, but [MENTION=94712]Lindeloef[/MENTION] will be playing in *my *campaign! But thinking about it ... I could throw in several more body parts of Vecna as well. there might be some unforeseen side effects if one combines them, though.


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## Savage Wombat (Dec 11, 2013)

[NU][/NU]







Jan van Leyden said:


> Nice try, but [MENTION=94712]Lindeloef[/MENTION] will be playing in *my *campaign! But thinking about it ... I could throw in several more body parts of Vecna as well. there might be some unforeseen side effects if one combines them, though.




It's the "Ship of Theseus" problem all over again.


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## Shemeska (Dec 11, 2013)

Savage Wombat said:


> I can't begrudge Greyhawk for winning, but it seems to me more like the consensus / compromise position rather than a majority preference.
> 
> And I've never seen as much mindless Planescape boosterism as I have anti-Planescape grumbling.




And this is why I'm not surprised that Greyhawk is winning. 

Now allow me to generalize and speculate about various groups of people on this issue. 

Some campaign settings are more polarizing than others - with Planescape it has a lot of people that like it and it also has a lot of people that just don't care for it. Like Hussar mentioned earlier, anytime the setting comes up it has a vocal contingent that just don't like it. I'm sure some of that is on its own merits, but some of it might just come from a rejection of anything 2e as that edition moved away from 1e in terms of tone, and I've noticed one segment of folks that really like the 4e cosmology and despise the Great Wheel (though the Wheel predates Planescape completely). 

For those not liking it on its own merits I'm sure the cant was a turn off for some, as was what some have termed an attempt to go for the White Wolf audience. The setting is distinctly different in tone compared to oftentimes in 1e - it was darker, had lots of muddled grey areas mixed in, and while it did whimsical, it rarely did camp. It really didn't change much from the 1e MotP (though it added a massive amount of detail to what was already established), but the tone was different, the focus on how PCs interacted with the planes was subtly different as well.

Greyhawk on the other hand... it doesn't seem to gather those varied camps that don't like it. It may or may not have high positives (to look at this like a politician's poll numbers), but it sure as heck doesn't have large numbers that don't like it. It does have folks that really enjoy it (some of the Paizo crew adore it), but I would wager that for most people it's the compromise candidate when faced with popular but polarizing choices like Planescape or Forgotten Realms.


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## SirXaris (Dec 11, 2013)

The World of Greyhawk all the way, baby!


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## Shemeska (Dec 11, 2013)

steeldragons said:


> No disrespect, Shemeska...I've seen you post this before and...I don't get it.
> 
> I mean, I can infer from the context this is meant as some kind of jokey/cutesy "threat."
> 
> ...




My name on Enworld and various other places online is a character from Planescape, Shemeshka the Marauder (missing an h - there's a story there). She was a powerful arcanaloth in Sigil, probably the richest and one of the most powerful in terms of influence. She also had a hair trigger violent streak, a gigantic ego, godawful vanity, and a looming question of whether that was all just a public act to appear as a petty albeit powerful socialite, glossing over her nature as a bloodthirsty fiend utterly devoid of mercy.

She appeared in much the same form in 3e, being name dropped in a few places over the edition whenever Sigil was up for discussion. She appeared in 4e as well (in altered form to fit the very different cosmology) in Dungeon 205's 'Demonomicon of Iggwilv: Shemeshka the Marauder' which I co-authored with Brian James.




Artwork from Dungeon 205

Fun character and at GenCon this past year I finally got to meet Ray Vallese who created her back in 2e. I apologized for hijacking the name of the character he created in the first place. He was totally cool about it.


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## Balesir (Dec 11, 2013)

Shemeska said:


> I've noticed one segment of folks that really like the 4e cosmology and despise the Great Wheel (though the Wheel predates Planescape completely).



Though this might possibly be a factor, I will testify to the fact that liking 4E's cosmology and liking PS are far from mutually exclusive. I have long held that a place (called Sigil, even) where folk believe in the Great Wheel in the 4E cosmological setting makes sense with no trouble at all. If the portals that join the planes exist as defined in the PS material, a body could easily be convinced that the "planes" of the gods and demons form a "Great Wheel". Indeed, some of the conceits such as "leaping from one plane to another" sound very like things you may very well find in the 4E setting.

So, 4E cosmology as "the truth" with enough portals to let folks believe in the "Great Wheel" without obvious contradiction describes my current Sigil/PlaneScape very well. And for those who shout that such-and-such-an-"outer plane" is infinite and a separate plane, not some "island" (or even "continent") in the Astral Sea, I have two words: "prove it".


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## GX.Sigma (Dec 12, 2013)

Balesir said:


> So, 4E cosmology as "the truth" with enough portals to let folks believe in the "Great Wheel" without obvious contradiction describes my current Sigil/PlaneScape very well.



But why does there have to be a "truth" at all? One of the major themes of Planescape is that nobody really knows much about how the multiverse works, and it's all up to interpretation.


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## Mercurius (Dec 12, 2013)

Along the lines of what [MENTION=11697]Shemeska[/MENTION] said, it may be that Greyhawk is winning this poll because its more popular for those folks for whom neither choice is their favorite, but Greyhawk is more palatable and/or has the nostalgia effect going on. For most folks who started playing in the 70s or 80s, Greyhawk was the first published setting, so it feels like "home."

I think I'm an example of this. In a way I don't even really like Greyhawk, but i love it for its classic D&D feel and iconic adventures. Actually, I don't really know if I have a favorite D&D setting. My favorite published fantasy settings are all for different games, such as Talislanta and Earthdawn. And of course my very favorite settings are the ones I create myself.


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## Shemeska (Dec 12, 2013)

Balesir said:


> Though this might possibly be a factor, I will testify to the fact that liking 4E's cosmology and liking PS are far from mutually exclusive.




It's not so much the structure of the planes or the model used to represent them that makes it mutually exclusive for me, it's the total aggregate of the many ways that 4e intentionally moved away from the Great Wheel and Planescape's expansion thereof, its in-game history, races, and atmosphere by design.

You could do Planescape in the 4e cosmology, but I personally find it awkward: what with the different in-game history, no active Blood War, a seemingly arbitrary number of alignments excised, a large number of outsider races completely removed with some of their names recycled into very different creatures (archons no longer LG celestials but evil elementals for instance), the 'loths alignment and reason for existence being removed and their status as a race unto themselves questionable at best, etc.

It depends on what you want I suppose. A planar game? Absolutely yes you can do it. A version of Sigil? Sure. A Planescape game? I'm not sure that there's enough in common between Great Wheel-based Planescape and the 4e cosmology. I find there to be too many differences both in content and design aesthetic to do it without it feeling... off... But at the same time that's only my personal opinion, and if you can make it work for you, more power to you. It's not my place to say what works for you and your games.

Edit: Apologies for the thread derail here. I won't continue on this line within the thread itself.


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## dd.stevenson (Dec 12, 2013)

Mercurius said:


> Along the lines of what @_*Shemeska*_ said, it may be that Greyhawk is winning this poll because its more popular for those folks for whom neither choice is their favorite



 Yeah, that's me. I don't hate either, but I can't say I would be devastated if both had been missing from the final round.


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## Hussar (Dec 12, 2013)

Didn't you just criticise people for conflating the Great Wheel cosmology for Planescape Shemeska?



Shemeska said:


> It's not so much the structure of the planes or the model used to represent them that makes it mutually exclusive for me, it's the total aggregate of the many ways that 4e intentionally moved away from the Great Wheel and Planescape's expansion thereof, its in-game history, races, and atmosphere by design.
> 
> You could do Planescape in the 4e cosmology, but I personally find it awkward: what with the different in-game history, no active Blood War, a seemingly arbitrary number of alignments excised, a large number of outsider races completely removed with some of their names recycled into very different creatures (archons no longer LG celestials but evil elementals for instance), the 'loths alignment and reason for existence being removed and their status as a race unto themselves questionable at best, etc.




But, the Blood War has no place in the Great Wheel.  It's a purely PS construct.  I can love the Great Wheel and completely remove the Blood War without changing the Great Wheel one iota from it's 1e presentation.  The outsiders were largely introduced in Planescape supplements, meaning that their PS versions do not actually appear in the Great Wheel.  Which means that bringing them into core, bereft of any PS material is not problematic at all for someone who likes the Great Wheel but dislikes PS.  The 'Loth were Daemons originally, and "mercenary demon" does not require NE whatsoever, since mercenary could be any alignment.




> It depends on what you want I suppose. A planar game? Absolutely yes you can do it. A version of Sigil? Sure. A Planescape game? I'm not sure that there's enough in common between Great Wheel-based Planescape and the 4e cosmology. I find there to be too many differences both in content and design aesthetic to do it without it feeling... off... But at the same time that's only my personal opinion, and if you can make it work for you, more power to you. It's not my place to say what works for you and your games.
> 
> Edit: Apologies for the thread derail here. I won't continue on this line within the thread itself.




You might not be able to do Planescape, but, a Great Wheel game?  No problems whatsoever.  

Which, to me, is a complete win for 4e cosmology.  I get to use all those nifty planar creatures without having to worry about all the PS material that some feel is core canon for the game.

IOW, I could have a devil with demon body guards in 1e and I can do it again in 4e (and 3e, although not 3.5 since PS managed to creep in a bit more there) and not have to worry about the Canon Police criticizing me for it.


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## Balesir (Dec 12, 2013)

GX.Sigma said:


> But why does there have to be a "truth" at all? One of the major themes of Planescape is that nobody really knows much about how the multiverse works, and it's all up to interpretation.



Yes, that was kind-of my point and why I put "the truth" in quotes. Just because one set of people conceive of the planes as being in an Astral Sea/Elemental Chaos configuration doesn't stop others conceiving of them in a Great Wheel configuration because of the structure (or lack of it) engendered by portals and similar conduits. The real "truth" is a chaotic mish-mash; order is imposed by conception, not by nature.


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## Balesir (Dec 12, 2013)

Shemeska said:


> You could do Planescape in the 4e cosmology, but I personally find it awkward: what with the different in-game history, no active Blood War, a seemingly arbitrary number of alignments excised, a large number of outsider races completely removed with some of their names recycled into very different creatures (archons no longer LG celestials but evil elementals for instance), the 'loths alignment and reason for existence being removed and their status as a race unto themselves questionable at best, etc.



Fair enough. With the Devils and Demons on different sides of the "Elemental divide" in 4E I have no problem imagining a "Blood War" still going on in some secluded corner of the infinity of the planes, and alignment always seemed daft to me, anyway; fine as an artifact of philosophical BS, but ultimately fairly meaningless.

And a 'loth by any other name would smell just as sweet... (erm...)


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## pemerton (Dec 12, 2013)

I voted for Greyhawk.

I have a soft spot for Greyhawk: I have GMed in Greyhawk for probably 10 years in total, mostly a long-running Rolemaster campaign while I was at university.

Whereas my default response to Planescape is dislike: the cant I find oddly annoying (as an Australian English speaker a lot of it is just a slight variant on the slang I was familiar with growing up), the adventures I find unplayably railroady, and the "philosophy" I tend to find a bit underdone. I also don't like the nihilistic cycnicism, which I feel is quite at odds with what I enjoy about fantasy RPGing.


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## Aoric (Dec 12, 2013)

I'm quite surprised Planescape has made it this far. In truth nothing wrong with the setting. Though I always saw it as an add on for the other settings. Sigil is merely a city among the planes a neutral ground of sorts. Though when I think of settings I'm thinking of a game world. Planescape draws from all planes and all settings IMHO. 

I can easily list hundreds of reasons why Greyhawk should win. Though I'll mention one that could trump any argument to the contrary. Gary Gygax created it and it grew from the imagination of himself and those that played in his home games. Which is the heart and soul of all roleplaying games that came after it. That's the only argument needed. If you want more just look at Wizard's they discontinue the setting and cannot leave the Greyhawk content alone. Its a cash cow that just keeps giving. 

Nuff said

Aoric


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## billd91 (Dec 12, 2013)

Hussar said:


> But, the Blood War has no place in the Great Wheel.  It's a purely PS construct.  I can love the Great Wheel and completely remove the Blood War without changing the Great Wheel one iota from it's 1e presentation.  The outsiders were largely introduced in Planescape supplements, meaning that their PS versions do not actually appear in the Great Wheel.  Which means that bringing them into core, bereft of any PS material is not problematic at all for someone who likes the Great Wheel but dislikes PS.  The 'Loth were Daemons originally, and "mercenary demon" does not require NE whatsoever, since mercenary could be any alignment.




According to the wikipedia entry, the Blood War preceded the publication of Planescape by a few years. It was part of the return of devils and demons to 2e with the Outer Planes Appendix to the Monstrous Compendium. That may have heralded upcoming developments in planar settings, and PS did expound on it a great deal, as I understand it. 

I don't think I'd ever say that using PS material in a non-PS campaign was really problematic. It's only problematic if you have problematic players who won't separate the canon they like from the canon you're establishing in your campaign setting. I know there are some players like that, but sometimes you just have to either not play with them or ignore their self-created problems.


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## DMZ2112 (Dec 12, 2013)

I just wanted to say that as much fun as it is to take sides, and criticize the foibles of Greyhawk, and call attention to how far down their heads the collective hair of the Greyhawk fandom has migrated, I'm honestly pleased to see that Greyhawk is going to take this one.

I voted for Planescape because it was really my first /serious/ AD&D setting.  My first sessions of Rules Cyclopedia D&D were run in a heavily homebrewed Kingdom of Ierendi, on what I just now learned was apparently Safari Island (you would not have known, although the subtropical climate persists into my current 13th Age homebrew).  

I also dabbled in Krynn while I was reading the Dragonlance novels for the first time, but Planescape was the first setting to really capture my imagination.  By the time I graduated from college I owned every book released for the setting and a handful of tie-ins, to boot.  I remember being fascinated by the planes as early as ten years old, running a couple of vastly underleveled friends against the original Monster Manual version of Tiamat in her lair.

They won, I think.  _And thus my intense disdain for players was born, in the blackened knots of my heart-analogue._

But I digress.  I also own two copies of the wood-grain AD&D1 Greyhawk boxed set.  I consider the pristine one a prized possession.  One of my earliest memories of learning the bizarre mashup of AD&D1 and BECMI D&D that my first dungeon master ran (I'm not sure he knew there was a difference) was him promising my character the throne of the Grand Duchy of Geoff.  This was before I knew about the giants.  Okay, I picked it because its heraldry was awesome.  I was eight.

I don't think you can be a D&D fan of a certain age and not have some nostalgia for Greyhawk.  Even if this poll is completely statistically insignificant, I'm glad to see that the original D&D world still shines for people forty years on. 



steeldragons said:


> Would those be the veins...in your pants?




No, they're the PANTS in my VEINS!

_OBEY THE PANTS!_


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## TwoSix (Dec 12, 2013)

Balesir said:


> Yes, that was kind-of my point and why I put "the truth" in quotes. Just because one set of people conceive of the planes as being in an Astral Sea/Elemental Chaos configuration doesn't stop others conceiving of them in a Great Wheel configuration because of the structure (or lack of it) engendered by portals and similar conduits. The real "truth" is a chaotic mish-mash; order is imposed by conception, not by nature.



I tend to use the Great Wheel concepts, but mix in a lot of 4e concepts.  Mechanus goes back to Nirvana, which is the Astral Sea.  Limbo is the Elemental Chaos.  The Feywild is actually Arborea, which takes up the NG section of the Wheel.  The Shadowfell is the Grey Waste.  Pandemonium is the hope of many of the trapped primordials, which is why it's so unpleasant.  Even the demons and the Unseelie stay away.


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## interfactor (Dec 12, 2013)

*Greyhawk*

I voted for Greyhawk, but it was a tough choice. Greyhawk is home for me, but Planescape was where we vacationed.


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## Azgulor (Dec 12, 2013)

Greyhawk all the way.  While other settings can ratchet up niche concepts and flavor, Greyhawk handles a huge gamut of fantasy concepts very well while remaining rooted in the conceptual familiarity of the Middle Ages.

I started gaming with Greyhawk as my first setting.  The allure of the FR gray box moved my campaigns over to the Realms for several years, but ultimately, we returned to Greyhawk as we could tell the stories that worked in the Realms without the baggage of the Realms-isms we disliked.

Greyhawk is the first, and arguably still the best, standard-bearer for kitchen-sink settings.  My only regrets of the setting is that more of the world wasn't revealed in other box sets/books.

My tastes run to Golarion and Midgard these days, but my Greyhawk stuff is a part of my collection I'd never part with.


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## Greyhawk Grognard (Dec 12, 2013)

It should hopefully be no surprise that I voted for Greyhawk. 

Honestly, Planescape always felt a little weird to me. I like the wheel, and prefer the focus of the game be on the material plane. But hey, personal taste and all that. I certainly don't begrudge anyone else who wants to play in Sigil (or Waterdeep, or Tyr, or wherever). 

Joe / GG


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## Brock Landers (Dec 12, 2013)

I feel that I win with either vote, as_ Planescape_ is an extension of_ Greyhawk_ for me in many ways. 

As for the Great Wheel vs. 4th Ed Cosmology, so easy to reconcile them.


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## Manbearcat (Dec 13, 2013)

Wow.  Taken behind the woodshed.  I wonder how Greyhawk is going to spend Planescape's lunch money?


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## Argyle King (Dec 13, 2013)

For what it's worth, I voted Greyhawk despite having zero connection to the tabletop gaming of the 70s or 80s.  I never played D&D until 2000.  It still tends to be one of the settings I enjoy the most.  I'm currently a player in a non-D&D game set in the world of Greyhawk, and it's one of the most enjoyable campaigns I've ever been in.


Also, for what it's worth, I prefer the basic ideas behind the 4E cosmology (Shadowfell and Feywild being echoes of the prime; elementals vs gods) over the Great Wheel.  Though, I tend to favor most (but certainly not all) of the 3E gods.


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## howandwhy99 (Dec 13, 2013)

Greyhawk of the early modules and gazetteer and boxed set era is undeniably awesome. It's really the myths of a larger world we never quite see that sold it for me. There were secrets known only to those who actually played in it down in Lake Geneva. Of course the published work was largely different, but so much of the design feel of the setting is at once the place of epic narratives with a big dose of historical allusions mixed with countless instances of humor in puns, inside jokes, and personal feel. The feel could put one off, but it is one of very few D&D settings which actually feel like they were built through play of a fantasy wargame and not just brainstorming without playing. There's no tie to an underlying theme in Greyhawk, no addressing of particular moral quandaries, nothing which our contemporary culture holds to make "good art", and yet it feels aged. Lived in. A real place. One with a history capable of being discovered because not only does what you do now matter, but also what everyone else has done before. The world was shaped, not dreamt.

I have high hopes Wizards will bring Greyhawk back, but it's original designer has passed on. There is no original voice for the setting now, much like Howard's endless imitators for Conan can never match his voice. It is not Conan without him and I fear it will not be Greyhawk without Gygax. But so much material exists even that hurdle may be overcome. The hard part is post-Gygax Greyhawk which has its own feel, its own highs and lows as well. Add in the LGG of 3e tying all original and 90s material together and Greyhawk now as a living work becomes harder to recognize as the earlier one. I don't know what we'll see of the setting next, but I'm actually rooting for small, game supporting, and focused. Something perhaps even very, very general on the big scale, and then with small pieces in regions setting down greater detail, yet still requiring DMs to fill in the proverbial map and make it their own. 

I like the latest Wandering Monsters article for bringing up Silver Marches, possibly the best 3.x Forgotten Realms book published as a usable campaign setting. (of course that map is hideously outsized, but then I see Greyhawk as the original source of that trouble. I could see the 1:30 mile gaping hexes in Greyhawk cut down to 1:10, 1:12, or 1:15. Furyondy may as well be, I don't know, half of Europe otherwise.


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## I'm A Banana (Dec 13, 2013)

GX.Sigma said:


> But why does there have to be a "truth" at all? One of the major themes of Planescape is that nobody really knows much about how the multiverse works, and it's all up to interpretation.




This has always been my approach for my 4e PS games.

It's also what helped me not sweat the lore. It doesn't matter if I don't know some obscure reference in some manual, because relativity of reality is one of PS's canonical, interesting elements. There's no reason anything HAS to be true. The Blood War could just be one big consipiracy of the fiends to make it look like there's in-fighting so that they can cooperate to overthrow the angels and not really happening at all. Why not? 

PS always gave me the impression of being whatever you wanted to make of it. Which is why it gets my vote above Greyhawk. Standard D&D is great, but Weird D&D is more fun for me.


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## interfactor (Dec 13, 2013)

*Welcome, Joe!*



Greyhawk Grognard said:


> It should hopefully be no surprise that I voted for Greyhawk.
> 
> Honestly, Planescape always felt a little weird to me. I like the wheel, and prefer the focus of the game be on the material plane. But hey, personal taste and all that. I certainly don't begrudge anyone else who wants to play in Sigil (or Waterdeep, or Tyr, or wherever).
> 
> Joe / GG




I think that weird was one of the goals of the setting. Tony DiTerlizzi's incredible art set that tone from the get go. Beautiful and otherworldly. Besides, if dimensional travel isn't weird, you're not doing it right. 

Joe, you should include a link to your excellent blog in your sig. And thanks for ADD, it is a great game!


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## Hussar (Dec 14, 2013)

Obviously Greyhawk got my vote.  And, here's why:  Greyhawk, to me, always seemed like a campaign world where the players were expected to make lasting impacts on the setting.  It was someone's home setting and, if you looked at it, it wasn't too hard to see that my character could, with a bit of patience, take up a place among the movers and shakers of the world.  Most of the NPC's were low double digit levels (with a couple of exceptions).  If you had a 12th level party in Greyhawk, you were among the highest of the high.

It was something to easily aspire to.  "My character is going to impact this setting just like Tenser or Murylind".  It gave the players a built in hook right from the get go.  

Looking back on it, I realise that it's the lack of deus ex machina NPC's in Greyhawk is probably my biggest draw.


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## btmcrae (Dec 14, 2013)

I have never really considered PLANESCAPE to even be a real setting.  The Planes are tacked on to ALL setting worlds, but even in the PLANESCAPE format the Planes never felt much like a setting of their own.  Okay, it seems like a Monty Haul setting, if anything.  The only reason I think that PLANESCPE is even in the running is because so many people identify with portions of it for the very reason that the Planes are in present on the periphery of every world setting to begin with.  And because planar gates are a less lame way to get about than SPELLJAMMER.


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## grodog (Dec 14, 2013)

howandwhy99 said:


> I have high hopes Wizards will bring Greyhawk back, but it's original designer has passed on. There is no original voice for the setting now, much like Howard's endless imitators for Conan can never match his voice. It is not Conan without him and I fear it will not be Greyhawk without Gygax.




While Gary is gone, there are other Greyhawk co-creators still living, thankfully.  Rob Kuntz is still around, as are a number of the players in the original campaign, and Gary's children Luke and Ernie who were among the primary participants in the game.  No one can replace Gary, of course, but the rest of the Lake Geneva gang still has some good life left in their veins!


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## howandwhy99 (Dec 15, 2013)

grodog said:


> While Gary is gone, there are other Greyhawk co-creators still living, thankfully.  Rob Kuntz is still around, as are a number of the players in the original campaign, and Gary's children Luke and Ernie who were among the primary participants in the game.  No one can replace Gary, of course, but the rest of the Lake Geneva gang still has some good life left in their veins!



Maybe you could find those two CAS modules for cost for me somewhere?  To fill out my collection. 

It would be awesome if Kuntz came out of retirement, but the rest of the crowd is already publishing again, no? Still, it would be awesome if they published for Greyhawk openly. And I assume their monetary compensation would be a great deal more, if they published through Wizards.

You are right there is great material from great authors still to be had.


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## grodog (Dec 15, 2013)

howandwhy99 said:


> Maybe you could find those two CAS modules for cost for me somewhere?  To fill out my collection.




Perhaps you missed this update?:  http://lakegenevaoriginalrpg.blogspot.com/2013/11/updates-on-run.html





howandwhy99 said:


> It would be awesome if Kuntz came out of retirement, but the rest of the crowd is already publishing again, no?




IIRC, the Hobby Shop Dungeon from Ernie Gygax and Benoist Poire is appearing in Gygax Magazine #3, too.


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## TarionzCousin (Dec 15, 2013)

I consider myself a Forgotten Realms/Planescape DM; that's where I did the vast majority of my DM'ing. But given the fact that Greyhawk is winning, doesn't it make sense to have WotC (or Paizo!) put out some new Greyhawk material? 

I would think there is enough demonstrated interest here and elsewhere that we should get something "new" in the original D&D world.


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## howandwhy99 (Dec 15, 2013)

grodog said:


> Perhaps you missed this update?:  http://lakegenevaoriginalrpg.blogspot.com/2013/11/updates-on-run.html
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I was already getting #3 and read about the Ernie publishing his dungeon (I think he's publishing it elsewhere too?), but I had no idea about the CAS reprints. Thank you. Now to save some Christmas money for those.


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## Greyhawk Grognard (Dec 16, 2013)

TarionzCousin said:


> I consider myself a Forgotten Realms/Planescape DM; that's where I did the vast majority of my DM'ing. But given the fact that Greyhawk is winning, doesn't it make sense to have WotC (or Paizo!) put out some new Greyhawk material?
> 
> I would think there is enough demonstrated interest here and elsewhere that we should get something "new" in the original D&D world.




We can but hope, TC. I know I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

Joe / GG


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## Mercurius (Dec 16, 2013)

TarionzCousin said:


> I consider myself a Forgotten Realms/Planescape DM; that's where I did the vast majority of my DM'ing. But given the fact that Greyhawk is winning, doesn't it make sense to have WotC (or Paizo!) put out some new Greyhawk material?
> 
> I would think there is enough demonstrated interest here and elsewhere that we should get something "new" in the original D&D world.




I hate to be the one to say it, but I don't think EN World is particularly representative of the D&D fan-base as a whole. I'm guessing the WotC give a more accurate cross-section; we're more "elite" here ;-). Actually, it would be interesting to run the same tournament on different sites and see the results; I imagine RPGNet and EN World would be similar, with a lot of crossover posters, but WotC might offer something a bit different, and Golarion would clean up at Paizo.

That said, I *do *think WotC should publish a kind of deluxe hardcover Greyhawk product, maybe in the $50-60 range, that gave Greyhawk the kind of high-production treatment that its never really had, but we've seen with the Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Golarion, etc. Hmm...this gave me a thread idea...


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## carmachu (Dec 16, 2013)

As much as I like both, I choose Greyhawk. Its given me a lot of good memories.


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## HoolMarshesDweller (Dec 17, 2013)

Greyhawk for sure, although I do enjoy Planescape from time and again. I have used Greyhawk for almost 35 years now for many campaigns.

What they (WotC) should do is re-release the original Greyhawk Boxed set but instead of the original paper version of the Darlene map - the greatest commercial map ever - the map should be...wait for it....a rollable mat that is also water marker-able. I'd drop $200 for something like that in a heartbeat.


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## DMZ2112 (Dec 18, 2013)

HoolMarshesDweller said:


> Greyhawk for sure, although I do enjoy Planescape from time and again. I have used Greyhawk for almost 35 years now for many campaigns.
> 
> What they (WotC) should do is re-release the original Greyhawk Boxed set but instead of the original paper version of the Darlene map - the greatest commercial map ever - the map should be...wait for it....a rollable mat that is also water marker-able. I'd drop $200 for something like that in a heartbeat.




Welcome to ENWorld, Dweller!  I didn't think they had the Internets out there in the butt-end of Keoland!


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## Alizaire (Dec 18, 2013)

*The reason Forgotten Realms gets played more imho is...*

That they have more books written for it, work on the product more, and issue more accessories for it.  It's not hard to see that the 3rd generation of gamers use it as their main home world for campaigning.  Greyhawk was left to rot except for the Living Greyhawk Campaigns and a half-hearted reboot.  If you don't make content for it consistently it's no shock that the younger generation of gamers won't call it home.  Now WoTC may have it's reasons for this (some I'm sure are rooted in who has rights to what).  
I personally love Greyhawk more as it's the grandaddy of them all (not counting Blackmoor).  It has that loose and wild west element to it.  Not everything is explained to the nth degree, etc.  Many more spaces to fill in the blanks with if you're the DM.  I wish they would republish all the old modules / content in 3.5 and 4th Editions for at least PDF download.  You talk about making a M.I.N.T.  I would GLADLY snap them up to save me the conversion time.  I think people want content available in cross-platform mode so they can snap it into whatever D&D version they run their campaign.

Just my two cents.


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## airwalkrr (Dec 18, 2013)

Can't believe I missed out on this tourney. I would have voted GH all the way! It's my favorite D&D setting of all time (although Eberron is a close second with all the steampunk-esque stuff). Go with the setting of the game's creator, E. Gary Gygax, R. I. P.

Unfortunately, it is hard for me to persuade folks to play a Greyhawk campaign these days. Everyone wants to play Pathfinder and I really don't see the system as being compatible with the setting (neither was 3e for that matter either). GH had the assumption of PCs building castles upon reaching "name level" and creating demesnes of their own, and as such, there was a lot of open space for them to do so. Settings these days often have everything filled in, described in great detail (see Pathfinder Chronicles for a good example, and there are others). Perhaps if TSR had possessed the staffing necessary to do so in its early days it might have fleshed out GH more, but part of me believes that Gary wouldn't have wanted things that way. Regardless of how it might have been, GH remains my absolute favorite D&D setting of all time.

(If you want to talk other RPGs though, Rifts Earth is my favorite RPG setting of all time. I've never seen a more creative post-apocalyptic setting.)


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## billd91 (Dec 18, 2013)

airwalkrr said:


> Unfortunately, it is hard for me to persuade folks to play a Greyhawk campaign these days. Everyone wants to play Pathfinder and I really don't see the system as being compatible with the setting (neither was 3e for that matter either). GH had the assumption of PCs building castles upon reaching "name level" and creating demesnes of their own, and as such, there was a lot of open space for them to do so. )




Not compatible? I can see that you don't get class-based benefits from building a stronghold, but I don't really see why either 3e or PF would be incompatible with building one.


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## DMZ2112 (Dec 18, 2013)

airwalkrr said:


> GH had the assumption of PCs building castles upon reaching "name level" and creating demesnes of their own, and as such, there was a lot of open space for them to do so.




::dawn breaks::

...OH.  Why has no one explained that to me before?!  It makes so much sense!

Airwalkrr, you may want to check out Pathfinder's _Ultimate Campaign_.


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## airwalkrr (Dec 20, 2013)

It's completely beyond the pale. I just mentioned the "name level" issue to point out ONE of the many discrepancies between the tying of rules systems to game settings. Sure, 3e has the Stronghold Builder's Guide and PF has Ultimate Campaign. But those are technically optional rules. In AD&D it was more of an assumption. Running Greyhawk in 3e or PF requires a lot of changes and/or compromises. The setting and the system in the case of Greyhawk were intrinsically intertwined. And I'm not just talking about NPC names being attached to spells. Take skills, for example. AD&D is a very skills-light system. It had the assumption that thieves were the ones with the real talents for those sorts of things. In 3e/PF pretty much any character can take 1 level of rogue and be just about as good of a trapper as anyone else. Or consider feats. The presence of these abilities in Greyhawk makes for some rather troublesome issues, especially when it comes to spellcasters. And while we're on the subject of spellcasters, 3e and PF spellcasters (especially PF spellcasters) are significantly more powerful throughout all levels. In AD&D, spellcasters had a rough go of things in the early levels but came to be quite powerful at the higher levels. In 3e and PF they have incredible power throughout all levels, especially since they have many more spells per day at their disposal. And magic item creation, well in AD&D it used to be difficult, and as such you didn't see a whole lot of low-level magic items floating around. How many players wanted to risk permanent Con loss to make a scroll of a 1st level spell? And it wasn't even possible until around 9th-level! 3e and PF meanwhile assume that even low-level PCs have access to a vast quantity of low-level magic items. In AD&D you were supposed to EARN magic items through adventuring. In 3e and PF, earning your loot is largely unnecessary. So long as you are earning the gold, you are getting the means to make whatever you like. I'll cite an example, if I may. A certain wizard... I mean magic-user, in Iuz the Evil, is said to make one +1 magical sword for the armies of Iuz PER MONTH. If given the gold by Iuz and his minions using PF, he could easily be churning out 15 of those suckers a month. A lot of issues here.

Now this is not an argument for one system or another. I am simply positing that the AD&D system is tailored to fit the Greyhawk setting because that was the default setting from the start. If I am going to run a GH campaign, I much prefer to use AD&D, with all the assumptions that system has to offer, and save myself the headache of conversions, changes, and compromises to the base setting. It's the same reason I only run Eberron when using 3e (and PF since they are close enough to work together). I can't imagine the headache of trying to back-convert all the sub-systems within Eberron back to AD&D. Eberron was explicitly designed for 3.5.


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