# Old revisions thread (ignore)



## Olgar Shiverstone (May 28, 2003)

View the latest version of these revisions in the new thread!

Changes identified for the 3.5 rules set are listed below.  Sources are:

Dragon Mag. releases [Dr]
WOTC Website releases [WOTC]
Ed Stark Comments (Mortality radio, WOTC Boards) [ES]
Andy Collins Comments (andycollins.net boards) [AC]
Dungeon Mag Adventure Path (3.5 adventures) [Du]
Savage Species/Fiend Folio/Unapproachable East/Races of Faerun
Unlabelled: Confirmation from ENWorlder roytheodd's early copy of 3.5 PHB

*D&D 3.5 Rules Revisions:*

*1.  Races*

  a.  Races with racial weapons now have automatic Weapon Familiarity with those weapons.  This means that the character can treat the weapon as if it were on the Martial Weapon list, rather than the Exotic Weapon list.  Note that the character must still have martial weapon proficiency to use the weapon without penalty.  This applies to:
	- Orcs (not half-orcs): Orc Double Axe [AC]
	- Dwarves: Dwarven waraxe, dwarven ugrosh [ES]
	- Gnomes: gnome hooked hammer [AC]

  b.  Dwarves get a +4 stability bonus against being bull-rushed or tripped; dwarves retain their full movement rate (20’) in medium or heavy armor. [Du]

  c.  Gnomes now get +1 DC to illusion spell’s saving throws, and have favored class: Bard.  Gnome spell-like abilities are now based on Charisma. [WOTC]

   d.  Half-Elves now get +2 on all Diplomacy and Gather Information checks.

*2.  Classes*

  a.  Bards get 6 skill points per level, no longer suffer from arcane spell failure in light armor (but not Shields, Medium Armor, or Heavy Armor, and only with regard to Bard spells),  and have increased musical abilities (3.5 Bard Songs are Countersong, Facinate, Inspire Courage, Inspire Competence, Suggestion, Inspire Greatness, Song of Freedom, Inspire Heroics, and Mass Suggestion.  Song of Freedom is the equivalent of a Break Enchantments spell that he cannot target himself with. Inspire Heroics gives 1 Target +1/3 levels over 15th +4 on all Saves and +4 AC. Mass Suggestions uses the suggestion effect on every creature that he already has fascinated.  Perform Ranks required are: Countersong: 3, Fascinate: 3, Inspire Courage: 3, Inspire Competence: 3, Suggestion: 6th Level and 9, Inspire Greatness: 9th Level and 12, Song of Freedom: 12th Level and 15, Inspire Heroics 15th level and 18; Mass Suggestion: 18th Level and 21).  Bards swap spells at 5th level and every 3 levels thereafter.

  b.  Ranger:  The ranger class philosophy says he is no longer a lightly armored fighter, he is a skill-using hunter. [Dr]

·	Skill points changed to 6
·	Hit die changed to d8
·	Class skills: Climb, Concentration, Craft, Handle Animal, Heal, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (Dungeonering), Knowledge (Geography), Knowledge (Nature), Listen, Move Silently, Profession, Ride, Search, Spot, Survival, Swim, and Use Rope.
·	Favored enemy bonus now gives +2
·	New favored enemy at levels 1, 5, 10, 15, 20 with graduated increases (add an enemy at +2, increase any other favored enemy by +2) [AC]
·	Wild Empathy ability at level 1 (replaces the Animal Empathy skill, works like Diplomacy)
·	Gain a 2-weapon OR archery feat at levels 2, 6 and 11:
	TWF at 2d, ITWF at 6th, GTWF at 11th, or Rapid Shot at 2d, Manyshot at 6th, Improved Precise Shot at 11th
·	Endurance at level 3
·	Animal Companion at level 4
·	Woodland stride at level 7
·	Swift tracker at level 8 (move normal speed while tracking)
·	Evasion at level 9
·	Camouflage at level 13 (hide in any terrain even without cover or concealment)
·	Hide in plain sight at level 17
·	Changes to spell list: charm animal as a 1st level spell choice, a better barkskin as 2nd, darkvision at 3rd, and animal growth at 4th.
·	The ranger’s TWF skills include double weapons like the quarterstaff [AC]
.               Rangers have good save progressions in both Fort and Reflex saves [Du]

  c.  Barbarian changes include: [Dr]

·	Trap sense at level 3 (bonus to reflex saves vs traps)
·	Trap sense improves by +1 every 3rd level
·	DR 1/- at level 7
·	DR improves by 1 at levels 10, 13, 16 and 19
·	Greater Rage at level 11
·	Indomitable Will at level 14 (+4 to Will saves vs enchantments)
·	Tireless Rage at level 17
·	Mighty Rage at level 20 (Rage bonus increases to +8 Str, +8 Con, +4 Will)

  d.  The druid spell list is revised (includes all animal “buff” spells).  Druids gain Wild Empathy as a class ability. [Du]  Druids have the following game statistics.
Abilities: Wisdom determines how powerful a spell a druid can cast, how many spells she can cast per day, and how hard those spells are to resist. To cast a spell, a druid must have a Wisdom score of 10 + the spell's level. A druid gets bonus spells based on Wisdom. The Difficulty Class of a saving throw against a druid's spell is 10 + the spell's level + the druid's Wisdom modifier. 
Since a druid wears only light or medium armor, a high Dexterity score greatly improves her defensive ability.
Alignment: Neutral good, lawful neutral, neutral, chaotic neutral, or neutral evil.
Hit Die: d8.
Class Skills
The druid's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str). See Chapter 4: Skills for skill descriptions.
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the druid.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Druids are proficient with the following weapons: club, dagger, dart, quarterstaff, scimitar, sickle, shortspear, sling, and spear. They are also proficient with all natural attacks (claw, bite, and so forth) of any form they assume with wild shape (see below). Druids are proficient with light and medium armor but are prohibited from wearing metal armor; thus, they may wear only padded, leather, or hide armor. (A druid may also wear wooden armor that has been altered by the ironwood spell so that it functions as though it were steel. See the ironwood spell description.) Druids are proficient with shields (except tower shields) but must use only wooden ones.
A druid who wears prohibited armor or carries a prohibited shield is unable to cast druid spells or use any of her supernatural or spell-like class abilities while doing so and for 24 hours thereafter.
Spells: A druid casts divine spells (the same type of spells available to the cleric, paladin, and ranger), which are drawn from the druid spell list. Her alignment may restrict her from casting certain spells opposed to her moral or ethical beliefs; see Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells, below. A druid must choose and prepare her spells in advance (see below).
To prepare or cast a spell, the druid must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level (Wis 10 for 0-level spells, Wis 11 for 1st-level spells, and so forth). The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a druid's spell is 10 + the spell level + the druid's Wisdom modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a druid can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table 3–8: The Druid. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Wisdom score (see Table 1–1: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells). She does not have access to any domain spells or granted powers, as a cleric does.
A druid prepares and casts spells the way a cleric does, though she cannot lose a prepared spell to cast a cure spell in its place (but see Spontaneous Casting, below). A druid may prepare and cast any spell on the druid spell list, provided that she can cast spells of that level, but she must choose which spells to prepare during her daily meditation.
Spontaneous Casting: A druid can channel stored spell energy into summoning spells that she hasn't prepared ahead of time. She can "lose" a prepared spell in order to cast any summon nature's ally spell of the same level or lower. For example, a druid who has prepared repel vermin (a 4th-level spell) may lose repel vermin in order to cast summon nature's ally IV (also a 4th-level spell). 
Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells: A druid can't cast spells of an alignment opposed to her own or her deity's (if she has one). For example, a neutral good druid cannot cast evil spells. Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions (see Chapter 11: Spells).
Bonus Languages: A druid's bonus language options include Sylvan, the language of woodland creatures. This choice is in addition to the bonus languages available to the character because of her race (see Race and Languages and the Speak Language skill).
A druid also knows Druidic, a secret language known only to druids, which she learns upon becoming a 1st-level druid. Druidic is a free language for a druid; that is, she knows it in addition to her regular allotment of languages and it doesn't take up a language slot. Druids are forbidden to teach this language to nondruids. Druidic has its own alphabet.
Animal Companion (Ex): A druid may begin play with an animal companion selected from the following list: badger, camel, dire rat, dog, riding dog, eagle, hawk, horse (light or heavy), owl, pony, snake (Small or Medium viper), or wolf. If the DM's campaign takes place wholly or partly in an aquatic environment, the DM may add the following creatures to the druid's list of options: crocodile, porpoise, Medium shark, and squid. This animal is a loyal companion that accompanies the druid on her adventures as appropriate for its kind.
A 1st-level druid's companion is completely typical for its kind except as noted in the sidebar on page 36. As a druid advances in level, the animal's power increases as shown on the table in the sidebar.
If a druid releases her companion from service, she may gain a new one by performing a ceremony requiring 24 uninterrupted hours of prayer. This ceremony can also replace an animal companion that has perished.
A druid of 4th level or higher may select from alternative lists of animals (see the sidebar). Should she select an animal companion from one of these alternative lists, the creature gains abilities as if the character's druid level were lower than it actually is. Subtract the value indicated in the appropriate list header from the character's druid level and compare the result with the druid level entry on the table in the sidebar to determine the animal companion's powers. (If this adjustment would reduce the druid's effective level to 0 or lower, she can't have that animal as a companion.) For example, a 6th-level druid could select a leopard as an animal companion. The leopard would have characteristics and special abilities as if the druid were 3rd level (taking into account the -3 adjustment) instead of 6th level.
Nature Sense (Ex): A druid gains a +2 bonus on Knowledge (nature) and Survival checks. 
Wild Empathy (Ex): A druid can use body language, vocalizations, and demeanor to improve the attitude of an animal (such as a bear or a monitor lizard). This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check made to improve the attitude of a person (see Chapter 4: Skills). The druid rolls 1d20 and adds her druid level and her Charisma modifier to determine the wild empathy check result. The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are usually unfriendly.
To use wild empathy, the druid and the animal must be able to study each other, which means that they must be within 30 feet of one another under normal conditions. Generally, influencing an animal in this way takes 1 minute but, as with influencing people, it might take more or less time.
A druid can also use this ability to influence a magical beast with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (such as a basilisk or a girallon), but she takes a -4 penalty on the check.
Woodland Stride (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a druid may move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at her normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. However, thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that have been magically manipulated to impede motion still affect her.
Trackless Step (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a druid leaves no trail in natural surroundings and cannot be tracked. She may choose to leave a trail if so desired.
Resist Nature's Lure (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a druid gains a +4 bonus on saving throws against the spell-like abilities of fey (such as dryads, pixies, and sprites).
Wild Shape (Su): At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type (see the Monster Manual). This ability functions like the polymorph spell, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity.
The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with. For example, a druid who has never been outside a temperate forest could not become a polar bear. 
A druid loses her ability to speak while in animal form because she is limited to the sounds that a normal, untrained animal can make, but she can communicate normally with other animals of the same general grouping as her new form. (The normal sound a wild parrot makes is a squawk, so changing to this form does not permit speech.)
A druid can use this ability more times per day at 6th, 7th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level, as noted on Table 3–8: The Druid. In addition, she gains the ability to take the shape of a Large animal at 8th level, a Tiny animal at 11th level, and a Huge animal at 15th level. The new form's Hit Dice can't exceed the character's druid level. For instance, a druid can't take the form of a dire bear (a Large creature that always has at least 12 HD) until 12th level, even though she can begin taking Large forms at 8th level.
At 12th level, a druid becomes able to use wild shape to change into a plant creature, such as a shambling mound, with the same size restrictions as for animal forms. (A druid can't use this ability to take the form of a plant that isn't a creature, such as a tree or a rose bush.)
At 16th level, a druid becomes able to use wild shape to change into a Small, Medium, or Large elemental (air, earth, fire, or water) once per day. These elemental forms are in addition to her normal wild shape usage. In addition to the normal effects of wild shape, the druid gains all the elemental's extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities. She also gains the elemental's feats for as long as she maintains the wild shape, but she retains her own creature type (humanoid, in most cases).
At 18th level, a druid becomes able to assume elemental form twice per day, and at 20th level she can do so three times per day. At 20th level, a druid may use this wild shape ability to change into a Huge elemental.
Venom Immunity (Ex): At 9th level, a druid gains immunity to all poisons.
A Thousand Faces (Su): At 13th level, a druid gains the ability to change her appearance at will, as if using the alter self spell, but only while in her normal form.
Timeless Body (Ex): After attaining 15th level, a druid no longer takes ability score penalties for aging (see Table 6–5: Aging Effects) and cannot be magically aged. Any penalties she may have already incurred, however, remain in place. Bonuses still accrue, and the druid still dies of old age when her time is up.
Ex-Druids
A druid who ceases to revere nature, changes to a prohibited alignment, or teaches the Druidic language to a nondruid loses all spells and druid abilities (including her animal companion, but not including weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She cannot thereafter gain levels as a druid until she atones (see the atonement spell description). [WOTC]


  e.  Fighters receive Intimidate as a class skill.  New feats are added to the fighter list (below). [Dr]

  f.  Additional PrCs go into the DMG, to include: [WOTC]

Arcane Archer: Fighter/mage with emphasis on archery.
Arcane Trickster: Rogue/mage with some neat tricks.
Archmage: Powerful sorcerer or wizard who reduces the number of spells they can cast per day in exchange for powerful arcane abilities.
Assassin: A rogue with less emphasis on skills and more emphasis on killing.
Blackguard: Anti-paladin. Serves the forces of evil instead of good.
Dragon Desciple: A sorcerer who gains dragon abilities such as breath weapon, bite, etc.
Duelist: A fighter who wears little to no armor and instead relies on thier ability to dodge blows.
Dwarven Defender: Strong defensive fighter. Can assume a defensive position where he becomes very hard to kill.
Eldritch Knight: From what I've heard, this is basically a renamed version of the Spellsword PrC. It's a fighter/mage with emphasis on melee combat.
Hierophant: Powerful cleric or druid who gains powerful abilities in exchange for the ability to cast higher-level spells.
Horizon Walker: ??
Loremaster: Spellcaster who pursues knowledge and ancient lore that can increase their power.
Mystic Theurge: Priest/Mage who is adept at both divine and arcane magic.
Red Wizard: A Forgotten Realms PrC. Red Wizard is a powerful mage who specializes in a single school of magic.
Shadowdancer: Rogue or bard who is the master of stealth. Has the ability to hide in plain sight and other abilities.
Thaumaturgist: Unknown.	

  g.  Paladins don’t get Divine Grace until 2d level.  Paladins get additional holy smite abilities as they advance [AC]: Smite Evil is gained at 1/day at 1st level, 2/day at 5th level, 3/day at 10th level, 4/day at 15th level, and 5/day at 20th level.

Smite Evil (Su): Once per day, a paladin may attempt to site evil with one normal melee attack. She adds her Charsima bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level. For example, a 13th-level paladin armed with a longsword would deal 1d8+13 points of damage, plus any additional bonuses for high Strength or magical effects that would normally apply. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up for that day.
At 5th level, and every five levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per day, as indicated on table 3-12: The Paladin, to a maximum of five times per day at 20th level

The Paladin’s mount gets a +10 bonus to movement at 8th level.


  h.  Sorcerers can swap out a spell at 4th level and then at each even level thereafter (6th, 8th etc.). Bards swap spells at 5th level and every 3 levels thereafter.  The spell must be two levels lower than the highest spell you can cast.

  i.   Animal Companions:  The animal companion rules have changed; it's no longer purely a "HD = level" link. (There's a lot more to it than that, of course.) Since an awakened animal isn't an animal any more (it's a magical beast), it won't be able to serve as an animal companion (or a familiar or paladin's mount, for that matter). Such a creature could still be included in the party as a cohort (using the Leadership feat, for example), or simply as an NPC ally. The animal friendship spell is no longer on spell lists.  Characters with the animal companion class feature will only have one animal companion at a time. Rangers use the druid rules for animal companions, at ½ their ranger level.  Animal Companion ability changes by level (Bonus tricks required no training time):

1-2: HD+0 AC+0 Str/Dex+0 Bonus Tricks 1 Link (+4 Wild Empathy and Handle Animal checks), Share Spells
3-5: HD+2 AC+2 Str/Dex+1 Bonus Tricks 2 Evasion
6-8: HD+4 AC+4 Str/Dex+2 Bonus Tricks 3 Devotion (+4 Save vs. Enchantments)
9-11: HD+6 AC+6 Str/Dex+3 Bonus Tricks 4 Multiattack (if no multiple attack forms the creature gets an addition strike at -5)
12-14: HD+8 AC+8 Str/Dex+4 Bonus Tricks 5
15-17: HD+10 AC+10 Str/Dex+5 Bonus Tricks 6 Improved Evasion
18-20: HD+12 AC+12 Str/Dex+6 Bonus Tricks 7

Higher level Animal Companions (treat gaining level as Level 1):
Level 4: Ape, Black Bear, Bison, Boar, Cheetah, Crocodile, Dire Badger, Dire Rat, Dire Weasel, Leopard, Monitor Lizard, Large Shark, Constrictor Snake, Large Viper Snake, Wolverine.
Level 7: Brown Bear, Giant Crocodile, Deinonychus, Dire Ape, Dire Boar, Dire Wolf, Dire Wolverine, Elasmosaurus, Lion, Rhinoceros, Huge Viper Snake, Tiger.
Level 10: Polar Bear, Dire Lion, Megaraptor, Huge Shark, Giant Constictor Snake, Orca Whale.
Level 13: Dire Bear, Giant Octopus, Elephant
Level 16: Dire Shark, Dire Tiger, Giant Squid, Triceratops, Tyrannosaurus.

    j.  Costs for wizards scribing spells to spell books:  
Time: The process takes 24 hours, regardless of the spell's level.
Space in the Spellbook: A spell takes up one page of the spellbook per spell level, so a 2nd-level spell takes two pages, a 5th-level spell takes five pages, and so forth. Even a 0-level spell (cantrip) takes one page. A spellbook has one hundred pages.
Materials and Costs: Materials for writing the spell (special quills, inks, and other supplies) cost 100gp per page.
Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for the spells she gains for free at each new level. She simply adds these to her spellbook as part of her ongoing research

  k.  Changes to wizard specialization:  Wizards who Specialize gain +2 on Spellcraft checks when dealing with their school and have to choose 2 other schools (any to) that they will be unable to use. They cannot however choose Divination.

  l.  Many of the Monks feat replacement special abilities (Stunning Fist, Deflect Arrows) have been changed into bonus Feats with 2 options as to what to take. For example at 1st level a Monk can take either Stunning Fist (results in target at –2 AC) or Improved Grapple (no AoO when starting a Grapple), at 2nd: Combat Reflexes/Deflect Arrows; 6th: Improved Disarm/Improved Trip.  Flurry of Blows at 1st level works like Two-Weapon Fighting; you get a single extra attack with a -2 Penalty to each attack. At 5th level it becomes a -1 Penalty and at 9th the penalty goes away completely (basically you get a free extra attack). At 11th level the Monk gets another attack at his full BAB.  New Ki Strike works like: at 4th level it counts as a Magic weapon, at 10th it counts as a Lawful weapon, and at 16th it counts as a Adamantine weapon. Monk armed and unarmed BAB stack; there is no longer a separate BAB for armed and un-armed monks.  Monk damage values (for medium monks) are:
1-3: 1d6
4-7: 1d8
8-11: 1d10
12-15: 2d6
16-19: 2d8
20: 2d10

  m.  Rogue Abilities:  Uncanny Dodge (L4) and Improved Uncanny Dodge (L8) work just like the 1st to levels of UD used to, trapsense has just been split off from it (bonus to saves vs. traps).  Trapfinding allows rogues to find traps greater than DC20 with Search (as before – now it’s just pointed out more clearly).

1: Sneak Attack (SA) +1d6, trapfinding
2: Evasion
3: SA +2d6, Trap Sense (TS) +1
4: Uncanny Dodge (Always receive Dex bonus)
5: SA +3d6
6: TS +2
7: SA +4d6
8: Improved Uncanny Dodge (Can't be flanked)
9: SA +5d6, TS +3
10: Special Ability
11: SA +6d6
12: TS +4
13: SA +7d6, Special Ability
14: 
15: SA +8d6, TS +5
16: Special Ability
17: SA +9d6
18: TS +6
19: SA +10d6, Special Ability
20:

Rogue Skill list: Appraise, Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Local), Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Perform, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Slight of Hand, Spot, Swim, Tumble, Use Magic Devise, and Use Rope.

  n.  Sorcerers receive Bluff as a class skill.


*3.  Skills*

  a. Wilderness Lore is renamed Survival [FF]

  b.  Alchemy is renamed Craft (Alchemy). [FF] Every class gets this as a class skill.

  c.  Pick pocket is renamed Sleight of Hand. [FF]

  d.  Animal Empathy is eliminated (becomes Wild Empathy class ability). [Dr]

  e.  Scry is eliminated (The subject is now allowed a Will Save). [Du]

  f.  Intuit Direction is eliminated (included in Survival). [FF]

  g.  There are no more exclusive skills. Anyone can take skill ranks in any skill (as a class or cross-class skill).  Since there are no more class exclusive skills, some skills require another skill or ability to be effective.  [Dr 309]

    h.  The full 3.5 skill list (from Dragon 309 char sheet):


Appraise
Balance 
Bluff
Climb
Concentration
Craft
Decipher Script
Diplomacy 
Disable Device
Disguise
Escape Artist
Forgery
Gather Information
Handle Animal
Heal
Hide
Intimidate
Jump
Knowledge
Listen
Move Silently
Open Lock
Perform 
Profession
Ride
Search
Sense Motive
Sleight of Hand
Spellcraft
Spot
Survival
Swim
Tumble
Use Magic Device
Use Rope

  i.  Innuendo is removed and the ability moved to Bluff, Read Lips moved to Spot (with some situations covered by Sense Motive), and Speak Languages is stated as not really being a skill any more.

  j.  Jump mechanics have changed substantially.

  k.  Druid, Monk, Ranger, and Rogue all get Spot and Listen as class skills.  Barbarian and Bard get Listen.  All other classes remain cross-class for those skills.

*4.  Feats*

  a.  Manyshot [General] [WOTC]
You can fire multiple arrows as a single attack against a nearby target.
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet. Both arrows use the same attack roll (with a -4 penalty) to determine success and deal damage normally (but see Special).
For every five points of base attack bonus you have above +6, you may add one additional arrow to this attack, to a maximum of four arrows at a base attack bonus of +16. However, each arrow after the second adds a cumulative -2 penalty on the attack roll (for a total of -6 on the third arrow and -8 on the fourth).
Damage reduction and other resistances apply separately against each arrow fired.
Special: Regardless of the number of arrows you fire, you apply precision-based damage (such as sneak attack damage) only once. If you score a critical hit, only the first arrow fired deals critical damage; all others deal regular damage.
A fighter may select Manyshot as one of his fighter bonus feats.
A 6th-level ranger who has chosen the archery combat style is treated as having Manyshot even if he does not have the prerequisites for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.

  b.  The full 3.5 feat list: [WOTC]

Acrobatic
Agile
Alertness
Animal Affinity
Armor Proficiency (light)
 Armor Proficiency (medium)
  Armor Proficiency (heavy)
Athletic
Augment Summoning
Blind-Fight
Combat Casting
Combat Expertise
 Improved Disarm
 Improved Feint
 Improved Trip
 Whirlwind Attack
Combat Reflexes
Deceitful
Deft Hands
Diligent
Dodge
 Mobility
 Spring Attack
Endurance
 Diehard
Eschew Materials
Exotic Weapon Proficiency
Extra Turning
Great Fortitude
Improved Counterspell
Improved Critical
Improved Initiative
Improved Turning
Improved Unarmed Strike
 Improved Grapple
 Deflect Arrows
 Snatch Arrows
 Stunning Fist
Investigator
Iron Will
Leadership
Lightning Reflexes
Magical Affinity
Martial Weapon Proficiency
Mounted Combat
 Mounted Archery
 Ride-By Attack
 Spirited Charge
 Trample
Natural Spell
Negotiator
Nimble Fingers
Persuasive
Point Blank Shot
 Far Shot
 Precise Shot
 Rapid Shot
 Manyshot
 Shot on the Run
 Improved Precise Shot
Power Attack
 Cleave
  Great Cleave
 Improved Bull Rush
 Improved Overrun
 Improved Sunder
Quick Draw
Rapid Reload
Run
Self-Sufficient
Shield Proficiency
 Improved Shield Bash
 Tower Shield Proficiency
Simple Weapon Proficiency
Skill Focus
Spell Focus
 Greater Spell Focus
Spell Mastery
Spell Penetration
 Greater Spell Penetration
Stealthy
Toughness
Track
Two-Weapon Fighting
 Two-Weapon Defense
 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Weapon Finesse
Weapon Focus
 Weapon Specialization
 Greater Weapon Focus
 Greater Weapon Specialization

Item Creation Feats
Brew Potion
Craft Magic Arms and Armor
Craft Rod
Craft Staff
Craft Wand
Craft Wondrous Item
Forge Ring
Scribe Scroll

Metamagic Feats
Empower Spell
Enlarge Spell
Extend Spell
Heighten Spell
Maximize Spell
Quicken Spell
Silent Spell
Still Spell
Widen Spell


  c.  Skill Focus now grants a +3 bonus to a single skill (instead of +2). [Du 100]

  d.  Two-Weapon Fighting now confers the combined benefits of the 3.0 Ambidexterity and Two-Weapon Fighting. [AC, Dr]

  e.  Weapon Finesse now applies to all appropriate weapons when taken.  [AC]

  f.  Improved Trip grants a +4 to trip attacks, Trip attacks ignore Attacks of Opportunity, in addition to its 3.0 abilities (attack following successful trip).  Note that trip attacks without Improved Trip do not cause an attack of opportunity if the attacker has Improved Unarmed Strike or uses a tripping weapon. [AC]

  g.  An Improved Familiar feat will be found in the DMG.  Most of the bonuses that familiars provide went up to +3 with the exception of Save bonses that are still +2 and the Toad that gives a flat +3 HP. {WOTC]

   h.  Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus each provide +1 to save DCs (instead of +2). [Du]

  i.  Power Attack
"Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attack and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.
Special: If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. You can't add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies. (Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon)

  j.  Improved Precise Shot: Your attacks ignore the AC bonus granted to targets by anything less than total cover, and the miss chance granted to targets by anything less than total concealment... In addition, when you shoot or throw ranged weapons at a grappling opponent, you automatically strike at the opponent you have chosen.

  k.  Investigator: You get a +2 bonus on all Gather Information and Search checks.

  l.  Magical Affinity: +2 to Spellcraft and Use Magical Device

  m.  The Endurance feat will now give +4 on all checks for: Swim checks, Forced March checks, Starvation and Thirst checks, Hot and Cold environment checks, and suffocation checks against non-Lethal damage, +4 on checks to continue running, and you may sleep in Light or Medium armor without becoming fatigued.
  n.  Two Weapon Defense: +1 AC all the time (no sacrificing attacks), +2 AC when taking a total defense action

  o.  Greater Weapon Focus: Pre-requisite Fighter level 8; +1 to hit which stacks with Weapon Focus.

  p.  Greater Weapons Specialization: Pre-requisite: Fighter Level 12; +2 to damage which stacks with Weapon Specialization.

  q.  Improved Feint: Allows a feint (as per bluff) as a Move action.

   r.  Stealthy: +2 bonus to Hide and Move Silently Checks.

  s.  Diehard allows you to stay conscious between –1 and –9 hp, taking a Standard Action each round.

  t.  Improved Turning: You are treated as one level higher for turning purposes.

  u.  Widen Spell doubles the area of Burst, Emanation, Line, and Spread Shaped spells at the cost of 3 Levels.

  v.  Negotiator: +2 Diplomacy and Sense Motive.


*5.  Equipment*

  a.  Shields now provide a shield bonus, instead of an armor bonus.  So a shield may be used with mage armor, or bracers of armor, for example, and have the effects stack. [ES]

  b.  Tower shield use requires an additional feat beyond shield proficiency (Fighters get this feat for free).  Tower Shield gives +4 AC or Cover, has a Max Dex bonus of +2 and you can't make attacks if you're using it as cover (*may be more to this mechanic).

  c.  Some (unknown) equipment is added to the equipment list. [WOTC]

  d.  The power level of the tanglefoot bag has been reined in a bit (details unknown). [AC]

  e.  The weight of some items has changed; small and large-sized characters will notice the difference.
Anyone can wield a weapon of any size, after a size penalty, if you use a weapon made for someone of a different size. [Dr 309]

  f.  The Whip no longer a Ranged Weapon; it is considered a Reach weapon, but you don't threaten the 15' area and you still provoke an AoO when using it (Note: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot no longer apply).

  g.  Spiked Shield is now included in the Martial Weapons as is the Sai (no stats).

  h.  There are “Small” versions of weapons for small characters, which do “Small” damage.


*6.  Combat*

  a.  Creatures now control an area that is square, regardless of the size they actually occupy.  For example, a displacer beast occupies an area 5’ x 10’, but is considered to control an area 10’ by 10’ (this simplifies the turning and facing of large, long creatures).  It may be attacked all along the 10’ x 10’ area, but is considered 5’ wide for the purposes of passages it can navigate. [ES, FF]

  b.  There are no more partial actions.  There are only move, move-equivalent, standard, and full-round actions.  Replace instances of the “partial action” in the original rules with “standard action”.  The surprise round grants a standard action, not a partial action (effectively no change). [WOTC]

  c.  Attacks of Opportunity: [WOTC]

The melee combat rules assume that combatants are actively avoiding attacks. A player doesn't have to declare anything special for her character to be on the defensive. Even if a character's miniature figure is just standing there on the battle grid, you can be sure that if some orc with a battleaxe attacks the character, she is weaving, dodging, and even threatening the orc with a weapon to keep the orc a little worried for his own hide.

Sometimes, however, a combatant in a melee lets her guard down, and she doesn't maintain a defensive posture as usual. In this case, combatants near her can take advantage of her lapse in defense to attack her for free. These free attacks are called attacks of opportunity.

Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity (but see Unarmed Combat).

Reach Weapons: Most creatures of Medium or smaller size have a reach of only 5 feet. This means that they can make melee attacks only against creatures up to 5 feet (1 square) away. However, Small and Medium creatures wielding reach weapons (such as a longspear) threaten more squares than a typical creature. For instance, a longspear-wielding human threatens all squares 10 feet (2 squares) away, even diagonally. (This is an exception to the rule that 2 squares of diagonal distance is measured as 15 feet.) In addition, most creatures larger than Medium have a natural reach of 10 feet or more; see Big and Little Creatures in Combat.

Provoking an Attack of Opportunity: Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing an action within a threatened square. 

Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes an attack of opportunity from the threatening opponent. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack -- the 5-foot-step (see Miscellaneous Actions) and the withdraw action (see Full-Round Actions).

Performing a Distracting Act: Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. Casting a spell and attacking with a ranged weapon, for example, are distracting actions. Table 8-2: Actions in Combat notes many of the actions that provoke attacks of opportunity.

Remember that even actions that normally provoke attacks of opportunity may have exceptions to this rule. For instance, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat doesn't incur an attack of opportunity for making an unarmed attack.

Making an Attack of Opportunity: An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and you can only make one per round. You don't have to make an attack of opportunity if you don't want to. 
An experienced character gets additional regular melee attacks (by using the full attack action), but at a lower attack bonus. You make your attack of opportunity, however, at your normal attack bonus -- even if you've already attacked in the round. 

An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).

Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you -- such as by moving out of a threatened square and then casting a spell in a threatened square -- you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your normal attack bonus. You do not reduce your attack bonus for making multiple attacks of opportunity.

d.  Trip attempts:  Trip is clarified in 3.5 to be an unarmed touch attack (which provokes an AoO), *unless* you have the Improved Trip feat (in which case there's no AoO for the attempt), or if you're using a weapon specifically designed to trip (such as the halberd), in which case it's an armed attack and you don't provoke the AoO.  If you're using a tripping weapon, and would be tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon instead. [AC]

e.  Bonuses from magic ranged weapons and ammunition no longer stack, they overlap (ie, only the highest magic bonus from a magic bow and magic arrows applies).[Du100]

f.  Do not taunt the Happy Fun Ball.  Bluff provides a +2 bonus to HFB taunting checks. 

g.  New condition: Sickened (-2 on all checks including weapon damage rolls) [Dr 309]


*7.  Spells*

  a. Haste [Dr]
Transmutation
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: One creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
The transmuted creatures move and act more quickly than normal. This extra speed has several effects. 
When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding. The attack is made using the creature's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a weapon of speed, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can't use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.)
A hasted creature gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +1 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves. Any condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses.
All of the hasted creature's modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet, to a maximum of twice the subject's normal speed using that form of movement. This increase counts as an enhancement bonus, and it affects the creature's jumping distance as normal for increased speed.
Multiple haste effects don't stack. Haste dispels and counters slow.
Material Component: A shaving of licorice root.


  b.  Harm/Heal allow a Fortitude save, failure results in half damage.  Both spells are capped at 150 points damage (10 points damage per caster level).  [Dr]

  c.   Shield [Du]
Abjuration [Force]
Level: Sor/Wiz 1; 
Components: V, S; 
Casting Time: Standard action; 
Range: Personal; 
Target: You; 
Duration: 1 minute/level (D)
Shield creates an invisible, mobile disk of force that hovers in front of the caster. It negates magic missile attacks directed at the caster. The disk also intercepts attacks, providing a +4 shield bonus to AC. The shield carries no armor penalty or arcane spell failure chance.

  d.  Endurance is now renamed “Bear’s Endurance” and is added to the druid spell list.  All “animal” stat enhancing spell durations reduced to 1 min/level, but now grant a fixed +4 increase to the ability. [Du]

  e.  Hold spells now allow a save each round; success indicates the effect wears off. [Dr]

  f.  Polymorph other/self are dramatically changed; specifically they are now polymorph/baneful polymorph with a 1 min/level duration and permanent duration respectively; baneful polymorph only allows relatiely harmless forms. [Dr]

  g.  Stoneskin provides DR 10/adamantine. [Du]

  h.  Slow reduces a character to a move or standard action per round; move is at half speed with –1 to attack, AC, and reflex saves. [Du]

  i.  Greater Magic Weapon now grants +1/4 levels instead of +1/3. [AC]

  j.  Instead of doubling movement, _expeditious retreat_, _boots of striding and springing_, and similar movement enhancing magic devices and spells now provide fixed movement bonuses. [AC]

  k.  New Spells:

Waves of Fatigue
Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 30 ft.
Area: Cone-shaped burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: No
Spell Resistance: Yes
Waves of negative energy render all living creatures in the spell's area fatigued. This spell has no effect on a creature that is already fatigued.

Waves of Exhaustion
Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 7
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 60 ft.
Area: Cone-shaped burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: No
Spell Resistance: Yes
Waves of negative energy cause all living creatures in the spell's area to become exhausted. This spell has no effect on a creature that is already exhausted.

Crushing Despair (demoralizes foes, and the revised Barghest can use it as a spell-like ability 1/day)

Mass Cat's Grace and Mass Cure Light Wounds [DR 309]

Scorching Ray: L2 Wiz/Sor Range: 25'+5'/2 levels Ranged touch attack for 4d6 Damage.

  l.  Heal now fixes exhaustion and fatigue (among a laundry-list of other conditions). [AC]

  m.  Lesser restoration now eliminates fatigue, and restoration/greater restoration eliminate fatigue and exhaustion. [AC]

  n.  The spell Negative Energy Protection has been removed, and its spell effect has been rolled into Death Ward. [Dr 309]

  o.  Finger of Death
You can slay any one living creature within range (25ft + 5ft/2 levels). The target is entitled to Fort save to survive the attack. IF the save is successful, the creature instead takes 3d6 points of damage +1 point per caster level (max +25). The subject might die from damage even if it survives its saving throw.

  p.  Divine power grants a +6 Enhancement bonus to Str and +1 HP/caster level

  q.  Burning Hands now has a cone area of effect rather than a semicircular emanation.

  r.  Animate Dead is now a 4th Level Wiz/Sor spell (not 5th).

  s.  Changes to Permanency:  Arcane Sight and Protection from Arrows have been added to the 'Self' list.  Greater Magic Fang, Rary's Telepathic Bond, and Reduce were added to the 'Self or Other' list.  Animate Objects, Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum, Prismatic Wall, the Symbols have been separated into separate spells and they too have been added to the 'General' list.

  t.  Barkskin is now a 2nd level spell that gives +2 AC +1 (natural armor bonus) per 3 levels over 3 to a max of +5. It lasts 10 min/level.

   u.  Call Lightning’s casting time is 1 Round and it lasts 1 minute/level. You can call 1 bolt/round that does 3d6 Damage, if there is already a storm the bolts do 3d10 damage.

*8.  Monsters*

  a.  Weapon types to overcome Damage Reduction are not cumulative.  So, for example, if a werewolf has DR of 5/silver, a +1 weapon will not overcome the DR (only a silver weapon, or a magical silver weapon, can).  Cold iron becomes a new material that affects DR.  Categories include blunt, holy/unholy, lawful/chaotic, adamantine, magic, silver, cold iron. [Dr]

  b.  Skeletons have DR 5/blunt, instead of halving all damage from slashing and piercing weapons. Zombies have DR 5/slashing.[Du]

  c.  There are a number of new subtypes (extraplanar, for example).  Shapechanger is now a subtype, rather than a category. [FF]

  d.  The “beast” category is eliminated.  All of these creatures are now either animals or magical beasts.[Dr, FF]

  e.  Individual monster stats changed (many, but omitted).[WOTC]

  f.  The Monster Manual will now spell out preferred monster tactics. [WOTC]

  g.  In the 3.5 MM bonus feats will be indicated with a superscript "b" after the feat name. [Dr 309]

9.  Magic Items

  a.  Instead of doubling movement, boots of striding and springing, and similar movement enhancing magic devices  now provide fixed movement bonuses. [AC]

  b.  Heward's Handy Haversack’s utility has been clarified (it's not a free action to pull things out, but a move action that doesn't provoke AoOs, since you don't have to dig around in it). [AC]

  c.  Quaal's feather token doesn't kill monsters by exploding them from inside. [AC]


----------



## Saeviomagy (May 28, 2003)

Perhaps the information regarding polymorph and baneful polymorph should be expanded?

Specifically IIRC, polymorph is now 1 minute/level (or is that 1rd/level?) and baneful polymorph is permanent. Baneful polymorph can only turn creatures into relatively combat-ineffective forms.


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## Technik4 (May 28, 2003)

-The full prc list was in one of the revisions. 

-Trips do not cause an AoO if you have Improved Unarmed Strike or are using a weapon that can make trip attacks.

-We know that spell-writing into a spellbook will be cheaper/easier. (Source: Monte's Boards)

-We know monks get Magic, Lawful, and Adamantine as upgrades for their fists.

Technik


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## Felon (May 28, 2003)

Does anyone know if Open Locks will be rolled into the Disable Device skill (or if not for that matter)?


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## Remathilis (May 28, 2003)

Doesn't Weapon Finesse affect ALL weapons that it could, not just one.


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## Corinth (May 28, 2003)

Remathilis said:
			
		

> *Doesn't Weapon Finesse affect ALL weapons that it could, not just one. *



Yes, it affects all weapons that qualify.  You need only buy it once.


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## Dark Jezter (May 28, 2003)

*3.5 DMG Prestige Class List:*

*Arcane Archer:*  Fighter/mage with emphasis on archery.

*Arcane Trickster:*  Rogue/mage with some neat tricks.

*Archmage:*  Powerful sorcerer or wizard who reduces the number of spells they can cast per day in exchange for powerful arcane abilities.

*Assassin:*  A rogue with less emphasis on skills and more emphasis on killing.

*Blackguard:*  Anti-paladin.  Serves the forces of evil instead of good.

*Dragon Desciple:*  A sorcerer who gains dragon abilities such as breath weapon, bite, etc.

*Duelist:*  A fighter who wears little to no armor and instead relies on thier ability to dodge blows.

*Dwarven Defender:*  Strong defensive fighter.  Can assume a defensive position where he becomes very hard to kill.

*Eldritch Knight:*  From what I've heard, this is basically a renamed version of the Spellsword PrC.  It's a fighter/mage with emphasis on melee combat.

*Hierophant:* Powerful cleric or druid who gains powerful abilites in exchange for the ability to cast higher-level spells.

*Horizon Walker:*  I'm honestly not sure what this one is.  Could anybody fill me in?  Sounds like a mage who specializes in planar travel.

*Loremaster:*  Spellcaster who persues knowledge and ancient lore that can increase their power.

*Mystic Theurge:*  Priest/Mage who is adept at both divine and arcane magic.

*Red Wizard:*  A Forgotten Realms PrC.  Red Wizard is a powerful mage who specializes in a single school of magic.

*Shadowdancer:*  Rogue or bard who is the master of stealth.  Has the ability to hide in plain sight and other abilities.

*Thaumaturgist:*  Unknown, but description makes it sound like a cleric who specializes in summoning monsters.

EDIT:  Added in Blackguard.


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## Dark Psion (May 28, 2003)

Sunder feat has been droped and Sunder, Attacking an opponent's weapon, is now a combat option.

I had not heard about Scry being redone, where is that one from?


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## jeffh (May 28, 2003)

*One more little change*

One more skill is going away, Intuit Direction.  Its functionality is being added to the Survival (formerly Wilderness Lore) skill.  This is mentioned twice in the same Dragon with the details on the revised Fighter, Barbarian and Ranger.

Also, your point B on Rangers doesn't make it clear (although I think you do realize) that when they get a new Favored Enemy, they can now give higher bonuses to the new enemy instead of improving old ones.  For example at level 5, they can have +4 to the new enemy and remain at +2 on the old one instead of the other way around.

Also, Sunder has not been dropped, it has been renamed to Improved Sunder.  It is true that Sunder is now just the name of the old "Attack an Object" maneuver (which just brings the terminology in line with the way people were actualy using it, IME).


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## DWARF (May 28, 2003)

Dark Psion said:
			
		

> *Sunder feat has been droped and Sunder, Attacking an opponent's weapon, is now a combat option.
> *




Sort of true.  Basically, everyone went "why can you trip and disarm without a feat (suffering an AoO) but can't sunder as well"

So now they allow it, and sunder has be renamed "improved sunder" and acts just like improved trip or improved disarm, but for sundering.


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## Upper_Krust (May 28, 2003)

Hi all! 

Does anyone know why the base damage for certain creatures has been seemingly doubled? Pit Fiend and Barbed Devil as I recall.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (May 28, 2003)

Keep 'em coming ... I'm editing the base document as changes come in.


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## Argent Silvermage (May 28, 2003)

Any word on Druid weapon restrictions?


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## Knight Otu (May 28, 2003)

The Improved Familiar feat will be found in the Revised DMG.

In addition, standard familiars will grant a +3 bonus instead of a +2 bonus, and the lizard becomes a familiar, too, granting a bonus to Climb checks. Other changes are possible.

Source: http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rs/20030513a

The combat section of monsters will state how and if it penetrates DR, such as



> A bone devil's natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as evil-aligned and lawful-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.




Source: http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rs/20030520a


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## Ysgarran (May 28, 2003)

One of the Ranger changes observerd in Dungeon 100 is that Rangers get good reflex saves.

Ysgarran.


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## Cloudgatherer (May 28, 2003)

Dark Psion said:
			
		

> *I had not heard about Scry being redone, where is that one from? *




Probably from me .  Actually, I noticed the Mystic Theurge does not have Scry as a class skill, which seems *rather* odd by a 3.0 point of view.  When I asked Andy Collins about it on his board, he said we had to wait for July.  Snooping around his website, I found some of his alternative Scrying rules.  Given he is one of the redesigners, I'd bet Scry is being replaced by a Will Save.


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## theoremtank (May 28, 2003)

Argent said:
			
		

> *Any word on Druid weapon restrictions? *




This is something I hadn't thought of.  I hope we see changes here.  The current druid's weapon restrictions are arbitrary.  And I haven't yet come across a good rationalization for the current list being the way it is.


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## theoremtank (May 28, 2003)

Ysgarran said:
			
		

> *One of the Ranger changes observerd in Dungeon 100 is that Rangers get good reflex saves.
> 
> Ysgarran. *




This is certainly very appealling if true.


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## Westwind (May 28, 2003)

Stat boosting spells (Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, etc.) last 1 minute/level and grant a flat +4 bonus.  (see threads on these boards)


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## purple knight (May 28, 2003)

I note that some feats from the splat books made it, and others did not.  Does that mean that feats from splat books not listed in the 3.5 players handbook no longer useable?  I am specificly refering to the divine feats, but obviously there are others.


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## Remathilis (May 28, 2003)

purple knight said:
			
		

> *I note that some feats from the splat books made it, and others did not.  Does that mean that feats from splat books not listed in the 3.5 players handbook no longer useable?  I am specificly refering to the divine feats, but obviously there are others. *




Short Answer: No.

Long Answer: Anything that has come before *SHOULD* be completely compatible with the revision. HOWEVER, things may be balanced out of whack or need revision to keep it in line with the 3.5 update. They decided not to include new feat types (divine, wild, regional, ancestor, vile, etc.) to keep things simple for the core rules. (general, item creation, metamagic, special). 

Note. The last Dragon (308) references the succubus having "Greater Teleport" in the Creature Combo article. That's the second reference to Greater Teleport so far.


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## Ysgarran (May 28, 2003)

The real question is if they change it by the time the 3.5 books get released.   At this point in time I doubt this will change.

Here is a stat. block from one of the Rangers, another change is that Knowledge(Geography) seems to be a class skill now.

Male Human Ranger 3  CR 3; Size: M Type HUMANOID; HD (3d8)+3; hp 21; Init +2 (+2 Dex, +0 Misc); Spd Walk 30'; AC 15 (flatfooted 13, touch 12); 
SA: favored enemy  +2 (Elves) +1, Ranger Style:  Two-weapon fighting; 
Vision: Normal 
AL: NG; 
Sv: Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +2;
 Str 14, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 12
Skills and Feats: Hide +8, Knowledge(Geography)  +7, Knowledge (Nature) +4, Listen +7, Move Silently +8, Ride +8, Search +7, Spot +11, Survival +7; Blind-Fight, Endurance, Point Blank Shot, Skill Focus (Survival) , Track
Possessions:   1 Arrows (20),  1 Eyes of the Eagle,  1 Longbow (+2 Mighty/Composite/Masterwork),  1 Longsword (Masterwork),  1 Studded Leather (Masterwork),  1 Sword (Short/Masterwork),




			
				theoremtank said:
			
		

> *
> 
> This is certainly very appealling if true. *


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## PA (May 29, 2003)

Rangers get GOOD reflex saves.


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## Gimble (May 29, 2003)

Someone forgot the most important revision.

*cough*ME*cough*


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## Corinth (May 29, 2003)

Zombie DR: 5/slashing (Dungeon #100, pg. 116)


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## Dark Psion (May 29, 2003)

Gimble said:
			
		

> *Someone forgot the most important revision.
> 
> *cough*ME*cough* *




And who are your two friends on Page 9?


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## Olgar Shiverstone (May 29, 2003)

Here's an item I noticed from Dungeon 100:

Magic bows and arrows don't stack (unless this is an error).

Check out the FTR/Sor/Arc Archer in "The Lich Queen's Beloved"

Attack +23 with +1 comp (+3 Str) longbow & +4 arrow:

+15 BAB
+3 Dex
+1 Weapon Focus
+1 bow
+4 arrow (I get +24, but if only the highest magic bonus applies, +23 is right)


But damage 1d8+7:
+3 (Mighty Comp longbow)
+4 arrow (overlaps +1 bow)

Good change, that -- only the arrow's magic applies for damage (or the higher of the two, don't know which).

Edit: Looking at another archer's stats, I'd guess only the higher bonus of the two applies for attacks and damage (magic bonuses overlap, not stack).


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## Fenes 2 (May 29, 2003)

3.5E Rangers get good fortitude and reflex saves?


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## Olgar Shiverstone (May 29, 2003)

If the Dungeon adventure is right, yep.


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## Fenes 2 (May 29, 2003)

If I had not already decided to ban them, I would now for sure.


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## Mark Plemmons (May 29, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Hi all!
> 
> Does anyone know why the base damage for certain creatures has been seemingly doubled? Pit Fiend and Barbed Devil as I recall. *




Not sure why those two were changed - but I know that golems are tougher now, too.  I won't say how because I want to be very careful not to break any non-disclosure agreements.

--- shameless promotion follows  ---

I know because there are several new golems in Dangerous Denizens, our new monster supplement for the Kingdoms of Kalamar setting.  I'm betting it will also be the first 3.5 compatible release, since it'll come out about the same time as the new Monster Manual.  

===
Mark Plemmons
Kenzer and Company
www.kenzerco.com
===


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## coyote6 (May 29, 2003)

Mark Plemmons said:
			
		

> *I know that golems are tougher now, too.*




Is it just the size-based bonus hp (which they were given in FF, IIRC), or is there more to it?

Edit: As for why damage bonuses were increased -- I would guess it was just to make the monsters more badass.


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## Corinth (May 29, 2003)

More from _Dungeon_ #100:  Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus now grant only a +1 DC (each, for a combined bonus of +2 to the DC of affected spells); this comes from examining the stat blocks of the spell-casters in all of the modules.


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## Technik4 (May 29, 2003)

Re: Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus

Thats really cool. I thought it was too powerful at +2, but Im not sure +1 is a good fit either. Maybe +1 DC, +1 Caster Level.

On a side note, anyone notice how easy it is too bring illusion DCs and Caster levels through the roof for gnome bardx/cleric1 in faerun?

Gnome BrdX/Clr1
Racial Bonus +1 DC
Spell Focus +1 DC
Greater Spell Focus +1 DC
Gnome Domain +1 Caster Level
Illusion Domain +1 Caster Level

Fear the illusions! 

Technik


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## Shard O'Glase (May 29, 2003)

+1 heh, I rarely took it at +2, sure it was good, but not so good that it was indespensible, and I'd much rather take a feat that gave me a new ability and not just minorly juiced up an already exisitng ability.  At +1 its a waste of a feat unless its to all schools or something.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (May 29, 2003)

I'm not sold on +1 (it does seem a bit weak) -- but that +4 from the two combined feats is downright nasty, especially at low levels (SF + GSF Enchantment = no fun for fighters).


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## diaglo (May 29, 2003)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> *I'm not sold on +1 (it does seem a bit weak) -- but that +4 from the two combined feats is downright nasty, especially at low levels (SF + GSF Enchantment = no fun for fighters). *




i wonder where you experienced that?


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## Mark Plemmons (May 29, 2003)

coyote6 said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Is it just the size-based bonus hp (which they were given in FF, IIRC), or is there more to it?
> 
> Edit: As for why damage bonuses were increased -- I would guess it was just to make the monsters more badass. *




Aside from the hp bonus, which was the main thing I was referring to and what I can apparently talk about since you know it already  , there were a couple of further tweaks to Special Qualities and such.  Nothing too major other than the hp bonus - which strangely doesn't change the CR.


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## Shard O'Glase (May 29, 2003)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> *I'm not sold on +1 (it does seem a bit weak) -- but that +4 from the two combined feats is downright nasty, especially at low levels (SF + GSF Enchantment = no fun for fighters). *




then just remove greater focus. That would be a much better fix IMO.  It looks to me like they sucked it up in some feeble attempt at backwards compatibility.


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## Psion (May 29, 2003)

I really hope you are wrong about the focus thing. It seems to me that casters have a hard enough time getting their spells to go off.

I really hope the everything is square rule is wrong, but I know it's not.


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## jmucchiello (May 29, 2003)

Psion said:
			
		

> *I really hope you are wrong about the focus thing. It seems to me that casters have a hard enough time getting their spells to go off.*



I whole-heartedly agree. This is the first change I've heard about that makes me want to cancel my preorder. The problem with saving throw DCs is that they do not advance by Hit Die but saving throws do. I'm contemplating a change in my games to 10+1/2 HD + int/wis/cha but this is too powerful the other direction. Maybe 8 + 1/2 HD + mod? Hmmm. Where's my drawing board?

If +1 to save DCs applies to ALL save DCs, not just one school, then it might work better.

(I'm betting it will not take just a few weeks to update old products to bring them up to 3.5. This is truly beginning to sound like 4th ed.)


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## Kershek (May 29, 2003)

I didn't know that +2 DC for one school as a feat was broken.  Do other people feel this way?


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## Kershek (May 29, 2003)

jmucchiello said:
			
		

> *If +1 to save DCs applies to ALL save DCs, not just one school, then it might work better.*



Agreed.


> *(I'm betting it will not take just a few weeks to update old products to bring them up to 3.5. This is truly beginning to sound like 4th ed.) *



It certainly looks like they're making a lot more changes than they suggested months ago.  The changes we've seen will have a much bigger impact than "10 minutes to update my 15th level Druid" as stated in one of the Wizards web page revision updates.


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## Grazzt (May 29, 2003)

jmucchiello said:
			
		

> *I whole-heartedly agree. This is the first change I've heard about that makes me want to cancel my preorder. *




One little change that is easily house-ruled makes ya wanna cancel your preorders?


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## FireLance (May 29, 2003)

Some new skill synergies I noticed from analyzing the Fiend Folio monster stats:

Knowledge (nature) gives a +2 bonus to Survival checks in natural environments.
Knowledge (the planes) gives a +2 bonus to Survival checks in extraplanar environments.
Search gives a +2 bonus to Survival checks when following tracks.


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## Michael Tree (May 29, 2003)

Psion said:
			
		

> *I really hope you are wrong about the focus thing. It seems to me that casters have a hard enough time getting their spells to go off. *



Where did this rumor come from?  This thread is the first I've ever heard of it.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (May 30, 2003)

If you analyze some of the spellcasters in 3.5 compatible adventures in Dungeon 100, you'll see that those with Spell Focus only receive a +1 benefit to spell DCs (eg, one cleric had a Wis 16, Spell Focus, but only a DC14 base save for that school of spells).  NPCs with both feats reflect a net +2 -- which means there are either errors in the stat blocks, or the feats have changed.

Since it's consistent, it's likely the feats have changed.


----------



## coyote6 (May 30, 2003)

Michael Tree said:
			
		

> *
> Where did this rumor come from?  This thread is the first I've ever heard of it. *




The thing about Spell Focus came from someone extrapolating from spellcaster stat blocks in Dungeon #100 (presumably, spell DCs only added up correctly if Spell Focus adds +1 rather than +2).


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## Michael Tree (May 30, 2003)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> *If you analyze some of the spellcasters in 3.5 compatible adventures in Dungeon 100, you'll see that those with Spell Focus only receive a +1 benefit to spell DCs (eg, one cleric had a Wis 16, Spell Focus, but only a DC14 base save for that school of spells).  NPCs with both feats reflect a net +2 -- which means there are either errors in the stat blocks, or the feats have changed.*



Both feats?  Spell Focus is one, what's the other one?

If this is true, then Spell Focus can be safely added to the list of "useless feats to never take unless you need it to qualify for a prestige class."


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## Olgar Shiverstone (May 30, 2003)

Updated original post with sources in brackets (may not be the only source, but where I got/confirmed the info).


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## Kershek (May 30, 2003)

Michael Tree said:
			
		

> *Both feats?  Spell Focus is one, what's the other one?*



Probably Greater Spell Focus.


> *If this is true, then Spell Focus can be safely added to the list of "useless feats to never take unless you need it to qualify for a prestige class." *



Unless, of course, Spell Focus now adds +1 DC to all schools and not just one school.


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## cavesalamander (May 30, 2003)

Kershek said:
			
		

> *Probably Greater Spell Focus.
> Unless, of course, Spell Focus now adds +1 DC to all schools and not just one school. *




Adding +1 to all spells is hardly focused.

And I didn't see this answered yet, but I believe that when 3.5 talks of "Greater Teleportation" that's "Teleport Without Error" renamed.


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## Kershek (May 30, 2003)

I just checked Dungeon 100 and Spell Focus is still only for one school.


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## DonAdam (May 30, 2003)

I don't like the +2 DC on Spell Focus anyway. It benefits different schools very asymmetrically.

I would prefer +1 DC and +1 caster level, so that it's worth it for all schools of magic.


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## Draugin (May 30, 2003)

I think that only +1 to DC is meaningless, but +1 to DC *and* to caster level is too much. I understand your point of view but it is not feasible. Most damaging spells could benefit from both increases, that in many cases translate in +1 DC and +1 damage die. A first level standard sorcerer with SF (Evocation) + GSF (Evocation) could cast four 3d4 _burning hands_ with a save DC of 15... greatly better than four 1d4 _burning hands_ with a DC of 17 (with 3.0 SF + GSF).

A hypotesis for the new Spell Focus could be:
+1 to DC if the spell grants a save
+1 to caster level otherwise

(there is a sort of a precedent with the fire/cold subtype: -10 to the save if the spell grants a save, double damage otherwise, if I'm not wrong)


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## Draugin (May 30, 2003)

Errata: It was SF (Transmutation) & GSF (Transmutation). 
_Burning hands_ is from the Transmutation school (I made the example with _fireball_ first, but then I found that with a lower level spell it was more impressive!).


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## Upper_Krust (May 30, 2003)

Hi Mark! 

Thanks for the reply.



			
				Mark Plemmons said:
			
		

> *Not sure why those two were changed - but I know that golems are tougher now, too.  I won't say how because I want to be very careful not to break any non-disclosure agreements.
> 
> --- shameless promotion follows  ---
> 
> I know because there are several new golems in Dangerous Denizens, our new monster supplement for the Kingdoms of Kalamar setting.  I'm betting it will also be the first 3.5 compatible release, since it'll come out about the same time as the new Monster Manual.   *




As Coyote6 also mentioned the whole Extra Hit Points thing for Golems is already known.

But thanks for the reply and good luck with Dangerous Denizens. 



			
				coyote6 said:
			
		

> *Is it just the size-based bonus hp (which they were given in FF, IIRC), or is there more to it?*




You would imagine they will give a Golem a Hardness value equal to its material.

eg. Iron Golem DR 10/-



			
				coyote6 said:
			
		

> *Edit: As for why damage bonuses were increased -- I would guess it was just to make the monsters more badass.*




It wasn't the damage bonuses I was worried about, but rather the base damage figures.

eg.

Barbed Devil (Medium) 

Claw 2d8+6 = doubled base from 3.0

Pit Fiend (Large)

Claw 2d8+14 = tripled base (almost)
Wings 2d6+7 = tripled base 
Bite 4d6+7 = doubled base
Tail Slap 2d8+7 = doubled base

Bone Devil (Large)

Bite 1d8+5 = same
Claw 1d4+2 = same
Sting 3d4+2 = same


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## Kweezil (May 30, 2003)

For Spell Focus, how about +1 to Save DC and +1 to penetrate Spell Resistance, and +2 to each for Greater Spell Focus? That feels like a more balanced bonus to me. Hell, I think I might just use that myself.


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## Kweezil (May 30, 2003)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> You would imagine they will give a Golem a Hardness value equal to its material.
> 
> eg. Iron Golem DR 10/-




Something I've been planning to use myself. After all, animated objects get a hardness score, why not golems. The problem wuld be that they'd be all but unkillable. Immunity to criticals reduces the meleer's damage, high AC stops use of power attack and magic immunity stops the high-damage spells.

The mithril and adamantine golems would be nigh unstoppable (hardness 15 and 20), and an obdurium golem... (hardness 30).


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## Psion (May 30, 2003)

IS there anything but the FF that talks about the change to construct HP?


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## Knight Otu (May 30, 2003)

Psion said:
			
		

> *IS there anything but the FF that talks about the change to construct HP? *




D20 Modern also gives constructs bonus hp based on size.


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## D'arc DeWinter (May 30, 2003)

*Spell Exchange*

The Gith Mindslayer is one of the prestige classes outlined in the Polyhedron mini-game in Dungeon 100.  At certain levels the class gains +1 spellcasting level to an existing spellcasting class.  In describing this ability it's mentioned that the Mindslayer gets no other benefits of the spellcasting class but does retain the ability to exchange spells known at even number equivalent Sorcerer or Bard levels.  (Not an exact quote, I don't have the mag. in front of me.)

Retain the ability?  Is spell swapping a known ability of Bards and Sorcerers in 3.5e?  Anyone have an idea how it works?  

Are any similar abilities mentioned for the advanced spellcasting classes in Urban Arcana? (since D20 Modern seems to be a good predictor for 3.5e D&D changes)


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## Remathilis (May 30, 2003)

*Re: Spell Exchange*



			
				D'arc DeWinter said:
			
		

> *The Gith Mindslayer is one of the prestige classes outlined in the Polyhedron mini-game in Dungeon 100.  At certain levels the class gains +1 spellcasting level to an existing spellcasting class.  In describing this ability it's mentioned that the Mindslayer gets no other benefits of the spellcasting class but does retain the ability to exchange spells known at even number equivalent Sorcerer or Bard levels.  (Not an exact quote, I don't have the mag. in front of me.)
> 
> Retain the ability?  Is spell swapping a known ability of Bards and Sorcerers in 3.5e?  Anyone have an idea how it works?
> 
> Are any similar abilities mentioned for the advanced spellcasting classes in Urban Arcana? (since D20 Modern seems to be a good predictor for 3.5e D&D changes) *




No idea, but I think that means 15th level sorcerers won't be stuck with Summon Monster I anymore.


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## Steverooo (May 30, 2003)

*Too many Feats?*



			
				Ysgarran said:
			
		

> *Male Human Ranger 3...  Ranger Style:  Two-weapon fighting;
> ...
> Feats: Blind-Fight, Endurance, Point Blank Shot, Skill Focus (Survival) , Track *




He gets one Feat to start, another for being Human, Track for being a first level Ranger, Endurance for being a third level Ranger, and an additional Feat for being third level...  He took the TWF path, and also has PBS...


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## Thels (May 30, 2003)

Which just happens to be what Sorcerors and Bards are about. Take it away, and they lose a lot of their charm, even though it makes them stronger.

Edit: Was supposed to reply to Remathilis


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## Dimwhit (May 30, 2003)

> quote:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Originally posted by Olgar Shiverstone
> I'm not sold on +1 (it does seem a bit weak) -- but that +4 from the two combined feats is downright nasty, especially at low levels (SF + GSF Enchantment = no fun for fighters).
> ...




No kidding! This change ticks me off. My wizard has both focus and greater focus. I can't believe it's getting slashed to +2 total. I'd rather get rid of greater focus and use the second feat elsewhere. +1 per feat is just a waste. Wizards get few enough feats that if one wants to use two for those feats, they shouldn't be penalized for it.


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## Steverooo (May 30, 2003)

*Knowledge for ALL!  ;-)*

Rangers not only get Knowledge (Nature) and Knowledge (Geography), but they also get Knowledge (Dungeoncraft), or somesuch...  ALL classes are supposed to get SOME form of Knowledge skill (Fighters will probably get Knowledge (History), as it covers ancient battles and military history).  All true Spellcasters have all of them, already.

Sorry, I can't remember the source for this, but I think it was WotC.

Too bad Rangers STILL don't get Balance, or Knowledge (Planes).  That +2 Synergy Bonus to Survival on othe4r planes will take 10 skill points to get...


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## Olgar Shiverstone (May 30, 2003)

Andy Collins just confirmeed the Dungeon info about rangers ... Good Fort and Reflex saves are in.

Yay-sayers may say yay; nay-sayers may commence nay-saying.


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## DevoutlyApathetic (May 30, 2003)

Some other Dungeon 100 finds:

Animal Growth no longer provides the double hit dice craziness.  So far it provides the attribute changes for growing a size and DR 10/magic.  Whee!

Dire Weasels and Giant Croc's both seem to have all good saving throws.

Speak with animals is now a first level spell.  (True to form Skip placed it at first and second level on a spell list...)

The note -2 armor check penalty (-1 doubled for swim) appears.  The annoying 'Track your total weight' factor for swim may have been removed.

Giant is still a type, not a subtype.

Weapon Size rules would seem to be further detailed.  The Githyanki article gives both Small and Medium versions of all the personal weapons.

Also in the section dealing with Astral Boats they mention a Great Ballista which is a Colossal heavy crossbow.  According to pg 113 of the PHB medium size creatures take a -8 penalty to attack with it due to it's size. (Oh, yeah real weapon size rules!)

Finally no mention of Scry skill.  Further the description of The Sword Stalker specifically details some mechanics for scrying, none of which involve skill checks.

More if I'm REALLY bored at work...


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## Dr_Rictus (May 31, 2003)

In the "spells" category, looks like they are adding mass-targeting versions of the _cure wounds_ spells (e.g. _mass cure light wounds_).  Each is 3 levels higher than the single-target version.  You can spot 'em in the spell list of the Ghustil prestige class in the 3.5-based "Knights of the Lich-Queen" mini-game.

I'd speculate that this could mean they're doing away with _healing circle_, and that therefore the mass-targeted _cure_ spells probably operate at range.

I wonder whether the similarity extends to clerics being allowed to spontaneously cast the _mass cure_ spells.  I'd hope not (I don't think they need it, plus it wound constitute the loss of another significant incentive for clerics to take metamagic feats).


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## Corinth (May 31, 2003)

Magic armor may not resize anymore.  Several NPCs in #100 had Small or Large armors, which implies that it stays that way after the owner loses it.  If this is so, then that's a good thing.


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## Kershek (May 31, 2003)

Corinth, why is that a good thing?


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## Technik4 (May 31, 2003)

*Re: Spell Focus*

I think +1 DC and +1 Caster Level is definitely balanced. Unbalanced was being able to grab both feats at first level (ie- few prerequisites).

Personally I think the prereqs should be:

[make-believe]

Spell Focus
Prerequisites: 3 spells known/available in Chosen School
Benefit: You gain +1 DC and +1 Caster Level when casting spells from your Chosen School.
Special: You may take this more than once, each time it applies to a new school.

Greater Spell Focus
Prerequisites: 8 spells known/available in Chosen School, Spell Focus
Benefit: You gain +2 DC and +2 Caster Level when casting spells from your Chosen School. This overlaps (does not stack) with the bonus from Spell Focus.
Special: You may take this more than once, each time it applies to a new school.

[/make-believe]

Technik


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## Kershek (May 31, 2003)

A +1 DC for only one school is totally not worth a feat.  Look at other similar feats like Girding and Penetration.  Are they going to change those as well?


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## Corinth (May 31, 2003)

Kershek said:
			
		

> *Corinth, why is that a good thing? *



Because there wasn't a good reason for the rule that didn't violate verisimlitude.


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## Kai Lord (May 31, 2003)

Corinth said:
			
		

> *
> Because there wasn't a good reason for the rule that didn't violate verisimlitude. *



I know.  I hate it when magic armor in a game doesn't behave the way it does in the real world.


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## Kershek (May 31, 2003)

Corinth said:
			
		

> *
> Because there wasn't a good reason for the rule that didn't violate verisimlitude. *




I don't agree.  With sized magic items halflings and gnomes won't be able to use medium-sized items.  Also, if, say, a hill giant has large gauntlets of ogre power on, then most likely no one will be able to use them.  Etc., etc.


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## Dark Jezter (May 31, 2003)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> *
> I know.  I hate it when magic armor in a game doesn't behave the way it does in the real world. *




Kai Lord, I am very tempted to add that line to my signature.  Great post!


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## Draugin (May 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Technik4_
> I think +1 DC and +1 Caster Level is definitely balanced. Unbalanced was being able to grab both feats at first level (ie- few prerequisites).



Yes I know, but why do you think they're raising Spell Focus prerequisites? As far as I've seen, they're not touching feats prerequisites, but maybe it's a lesser topic and no one has ever said anything about it in an official way.

And about spell exchanging, do you have to upgrade a lower level spell (in a sort of "spell chain"), or is it something ridiculous as "Oh damn I forgot how to cast _sleep_, but, look, now I can make you *bigger*!".


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## Steverooo (May 31, 2003)

*Deh!*



			
				Kershek said:
			
		

> *I don't agree.  With sized magic items halflings and gnomes won't be able to use medium-sized items.  Also, if, say, a hill giant has large gauntlets of ogre power on, then most likely no one will be able to use them.  Etc., etc. *




A Giant... with Gauntlets of Ogre Power...  "Me big'n' strong as Ogre!  Dey!"   

The 1e 18/00 versions were better.  No Giant would WANT them!!


----------



## Draugin (May 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kershek_
> I don't agree. With sized magic items halflings and gnomes won't be able to use medium-sized items. Also, if, say, a hill giant has large gauntlets of ogre power on, then most likely no one will be able to use them. Etc., etc.



Ok, this issue will make things a little harder for medium-size PCs and a *lot* harder for small ones, but I think if they are making this change, there will be low level permanent spells to resize objects (a permanent and object-only version of _enlarge_ or _reduce_). In the worst case, you could use a resize spell and _permanency_.

And that it's far less ridiculous than a huge magic armor that becomes small in the hands of a little halfling. It could be an interesting power for a single magic armor, but not an unconsistent *constant*.


----------



## Upper_Krust (May 31, 2003)

Hey Kweezil mate! 



			
				Kweezil said:
			
		

> *Something I've been planning to use myself. After all, animated objects get a hardness score, why not golems.*




Absolutely.



			
				Kweezil said:
			
		

> *The problem would be that they'd be all but unkillable. Immunity to criticals reduces the meleer's damage, high AC stops use of power attack and magic immunity stops the high-damage spells.*




I think it would be great for Golems. 



			
				Kweezil said:
			
		

> *The mithril and adamantine golems would be nigh unstoppable (hardness 15 and 20), and an obdurium golem... (hardness 30). *




Well they would all be considered Epic Golems, so I wouldn't see a problem with it.


----------



## Kai Lord (May 31, 2003)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> *Andy Collins just confirmeed the Dungeon info about rangers ... Good Fort and Reflex saves are in.*



Link?


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone (May 31, 2003)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> *
> Link? *




Rangers get good Fort & Reflex saves.

Also, based on the Dungeon 100 stat blocks, looks like Skill Focus is definitely up to +3 (maybe this was confirmed elsewhere, but this is the first evidence I've seen).


----------



## Corinth (May 31, 2003)

Kershek said:
			
		

> *I don't agree.  With sized magic items halflings and gnomes won't be able to use medium-sized items.  Also, if, say, a hill giant has large gauntlets of ogre power on, then most likely no one will be able to use them.  Etc., etc. *



Item creation feats exist for a reason.  Use them.  There's no need to have magically resizing items as a default condition when PCs can easily create their own or comission their creation.


----------



## andrew (May 31, 2003)

*Monks and Greater Flurry*

I haven't seen any mention of the Monk and Greater Flurry that was brought up over here: 

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51992


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jun 1, 2003)

I'm not sure yet what to make of the monks ... there appear to be some errors in those stat blocks, and thus it's hard to say what's a revision and what is an error.  We need some independent confirmation.


----------



## CrimsonTemplar (Jun 2, 2003)

theoremtank said:
			
		

> *
> 
> This is something I hadn't thought of.  I hope we see changes here.  The current druid's weapon restrictions are arbitrary.  And I haven't yet come across a good rationalization for the current list being the way it is. *




Which one's in particular do you have problems with?

The Scimitar is the only one I really have problems with.  Now, if they specified that it has to be forged of Meteoric Iron or crafted from wood and imbued with the Ironwood spell I could see it.


----------



## CrimsonTemplar (Jun 2, 2003)

*One more thing...*

Does anyone know if the Two-Weapon Defense virtual feat that Rangers get @ 6th is just a renamed version of Off-Hand Parry?


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone (Jun 2, 2003)

Unknown, but that probably isn't a bad guess.


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone (Jun 3, 2003)

Scry is officially confirmed dead, replaced by a (TBA) mechanic based on the level/difficulty of the target:



> The idea of tying a spell to a skill was an intriguing one, but it just wasn't integrated well into the system.
> 
> Scrying will work much more like other spells now--the tougher the target, the harder the scrying.
> 
> ...


----------



## Jhyrryl (Jun 3, 2003)

*Spell Focus*

Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus at +2 aren't really broke.  What broke was when WotC removed the Spell Focus effect from Wizard school specialization to give spellcasters something useful to do with feat mechanics.  What's broke is that people specialize in Divination and give up Necromancy (to get an extra spell slot at each spell level while giving up little in return) and then take Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus in Evocation.  If Spell Focus had a prerequisite like "Specialization in the chosen school", this kind of change would be unneeded.  

But then, of course, it wouldn't be useful to clerics, sorcs, et cetera.  Admittedly though, the effect in earlier additions was only a +1 effect that could not generally be increased, so I'm not upset with the change.  It simply looks like another case where WotC's design philophy for 3rd edition sometime fell into the "bigger is better" category, and now they are correcting that mistake.


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## Al'Kelhar (Jun 3, 2003)

*Re: Spell Focus*



			
				Jhyrryl said:
			
		

> *What's broke is that people specialize in Divination and give up Necromancy (to get an extra spell slot at each spell level while giving up little in return) and then take Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus in Evocation.  If Spell Focus had a prerequisite like "Specialization in the chosen school", this kind of change would be unneeded.
> *




Which is why I house-ruled that a specialist wizard could not take Spell Focus in a school other than their specialist school until they had taken it in their specialist school.

Giving up Illusion is a better choice for munchkins than giving up Necromancy (I just _lurve_ the no-save _enervation_).  You lose Invisibility and Improved Invisibility, but will generally have access to magic items which grant the power.

Cheers, Al'kelhar


----------



## Dimwhit (Jun 3, 2003)

> Which is why I house-ruled that a specialist wizard could not take Spell Focus in a school other than their specialist school until they had taken it in their specialist school.




I like that. My 5th level Wizard is an Evocation specialist with Abjuration and Enchantment his prohibitied school. He has spell focus and greater spell focus in evocation, and spell focus in Necromancy. Of course, if I have to move to the 3.5 rules, I want to take one or two of those back. I would never have taken all those focus feats if the benefit was only +1/+2. Just a waste. I could find better feats.


----------



## youspoonybard (Jun 3, 2003)

No one has mentioned the Druid Changes:

Barkskin better, animal growth no longer doubling HD.  Buff spells on list.

Animal companions gain some familiar characteristics, like Emphatic Link and Share Spell.

"The druid was a bit of a tweener class, not really able to replace either a cleric or a wizard in a traditional party. Rather than push it back into the cleric's niche, we strengthened the class's ability to deal out direct damage, while retaining its traditional support features. 

I think the 3.5 druid could just about replace the sorcerer or wizard (if the cleric packed a few dispel magics or other spells that you typically rely on arcane casters for, and maybe if the rogue or bard had UMD and a couple wands), or could just about replace the cleric (if you had other characters, such as a paladin, ranger, or bard, with healing capabilities or some extra wands). In some situations, she might even be able to serve as a front-line fighter.

As for specific changes, I can't really go into too many details. I think players of druids will be pretty happy with the changes, though. 
Andy Collins
Senior Designer
Wizards of the Coast Roleplaying R&D"


----------



## AdvntrGuy (Jun 3, 2003)

Also add Devotion (+4 to Will saves against Enchantment effects) as a Animal Companion SQ, Dungeon 100 pg 28.


----------



## Tarril Wolfeye (Jun 3, 2003)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> *Scry is officially confirmed dead, replaced by a (TBA) mechanic based on the level/difficulty of the target.
> 
> *




This will probably look like this (from Urban Arcana):

...
Saving Throw: Will Negates; Spell Resistance: Yes
...
Knowledge of Subject   Will Save Modifier
None*  +10
Secondhand..  +5
Firsthand..   +0
Familiar..  -5
...
Connection   Will Save Modifier
Likeness or picture  -2
Possession or garment  -4
Body part,...  -10
...

There's nothing about noticing the sensor in Urban Arcana though.


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone (Jun 3, 2003)

Instead of doubling movement, _expeditious retreat_, _boots of striding and springing_, and similar movement enhancing devices now provide:



> Bonuses.
> 
> Andy Collins
> Senior Designer
> Wizards of the Coast Roleplaying R&D


----------



## Elder-Basilisk (Jun 3, 2003)

I really hope that the wizard is still better than the druid at dealing direct damage. Druids were already halfway to the sor/wiz slot in 3e. If they are even close to as effective at blasting, given their d8 HD, animal companions, better BAB, better saves, better weapons, wild shape, more skills, immunities, and the ability to cast spells in armor, there wouldn't be much reason to play a wizard at all.



			
				youspoonybard said:
			
		

> *No one has mentioned the Druid Changes:
> 
> Barkskin better, animal growth no longer doubling HD.  Buff spells on list.
> 
> ...


----------



## Fenes 2 (Jun 4, 2003)

If they "fix" the druid the same way the "fixed" the ranger I got another banned class IMC. No big loss though - PCs that prefer to hang out in the wilderness are not really suited for my campaigns anyway.


----------



## CrimsonTemplar (Jun 4, 2003)

Fenes 2 said:
			
		

> *If they "fix" the druid the same way the "fixed" the ranger I got another banned class IMC. No big loss though - PCs that prefer to hang out in the wilderness are not really suited for my campaigns anyway. *




Out of idle curiosity, what's objectionable about the Ranger in 3.5?


----------



## glass (Jun 4, 2003)

I would like to add my voice to the chorus regarding SF/GSF.

They were bearly worth taking at +2 and +4.

The only plus side is that some of the descriptions have implied that it will be +1 and +1 stacking rather than +1 and +2 overlapping. I hope that this is a general rule.

I know that mathematically the effect is the same, but psychologically it is very different. The whole new bigger bonusses overlapping old ones is one of my hates with 3.0. It feels like you a wasting a feat as soon as you take the second one.

Just my €0.02.

glass.


----------



## CrimsonTemplar (Jun 4, 2003)

Fenes 2 said:
			
		

> *If they "fix" the druid the same way the "fixed" the ranger I got another banned class IMC. No big loss though - PCs that prefer to hang out in the wilderness are not really suited for my campaigns anyway. *




Out of idle curiosity, what's objectionable about the Ranger in 3.5?


----------



## Fenes 2 (Jun 4, 2003)

CrimsonTemplar said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Out of idle curiosity, what's objectionable about the Ranger in 3.5? *




In my campaigns it is clearly and grossly overpowered. 6 Skill points, 2 good saves, spells, favorite enemy bonus to damage and several skills, special abilities, combat styles, animal companion - ther anger would leave both the rogue and the fighter in the dust in my campaigns (which are not by any means standard D&D).

Especially in my main campaign, set in an egyptian-themed setting and with a heavy emphasis on social adventures, the alleged strengths of the fighter - heavy armor use and bonus feats - would pale in comparisions.


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone (Jun 4, 2003)

From Andy Collins' boards, confirmed (from Du 100):

Bards and sorcerers will get to swap out unwanted spells at even levels of advancement.

Also, looking at the new spells on the WOTC site ... since they are significantly more effective against melee types than casters, it seems to me th "Casters Nerfed, Melee Ascendant" crowd has been whining without the big picture again.

More and more it looks like 3.5 -- despite individual foibles -- will be a well-balanced whole.


----------



## JoeBlank (Jun 4, 2003)

Bards and sorcerers swapping out spells is huge news. Any further info on the mechanics of this? 

Finallly playing my first sorcerer, and I have read all I can about the best suggestions for spell and feat selections, and now the rules have completely changed. Fun!


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone (Jun 4, 2003)

JoeBlank said:
			
		

> *Bards and sorcerers swapping out spells is huge news. Any further info on the mechanics of this?
> *




Other than that it occurs at even levels, no.  I don 't know it it's single spells, individual spell upgrades, or any and all (though if I had to guess, I'd guess the latter).  If I learn more I'll update.


----------



## JoeBlank (Jun 4, 2003)

Any and all seems a bit much. It would be odd to have a character completely change like that. With few skill points and feats, sorcerers are defined by their spell selection. It would be rare to have a sensible in-campaign explanation for a total overhaul.

Even something like SKR's path magic would be welcomed. Surely there will be some limit, such as not applying to the character's highest level of spells, or only allowing on swap per spell level.

Again, my hidden genius is shown. By missing a couple of game days my sorcerer is only close to 5th level, and certainly won't make 6th until after 3.5 is out. Nice timing.


----------



## daTim (Jun 4, 2003)

I noticed in the new Dungeon magazine that rogues and assassins get  Hide in Plain Sight. Though it didnt say which level, it was built in to the character block.


----------



## CrimsonTemplar (Jun 4, 2003)

daTim said:
			
		

> *I noticed in the new Dungeon magazine that rogues and assassins get  Hide in Plain Sight. Though it didnt say which level, it was built in to the character block. *




Doesn't that kinda make Shadowdancers less useful?


----------



## RigaMortus (Jun 4, 2003)

Corinth said:
			
		

> *Magic armor may not resize anymore.  Several NPCs in #100 had Small or Large armors, which implies that it stays that way after the owner loses it.  If this is so, then that's a good thing. *




I am not so sure this is how it works.  I don't think Magic Armor resizes to a different size cateogry.  The way I interpret it is that, a 250 lbs dwarf and a 150 lbs human could wear the same magic armor because they are both Medium sized creatures.  Obviously they could not fit into each other's regular armor because of their different sizes and weight, but Magic Armor would resize for them.

Another reason I don't think Magic Armor resizes to a new size category is because you could then create pixie size armor and sell it to giants.  Besides the fact that it would lessen the cost to create it  (you need less material to make smaller armor), I just can't see pixie platemail growing large enough for a storm giant to wear.


----------



## Psion (Jun 4, 2003)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> *From Andy Collins' boards, confirmed (from Du 100):
> 
> Bards and sorcerers will get to swap out unwanted spells at even levels of advancement.*




Another one of my house rules makes it into 3.5.



> *More and more it looks like 3.5 -- despite individual foibles -- will be a well-balanced whole. *




I dunno. Some people on NKL are bringing up a very compelling point. It seems like many of the classes are being "dungeon optomized" that don't really need to be. I worry that they might be overdoing the druid. What the class needs is flexibility, not raw power, but from the sounds of it, it sounds like they will be getting the latter.


----------



## Negative Zero (Jun 4, 2003)

*Re: Compiled 3.5 Revisions*

i don't think these have been mentioned before but; 



			
				Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> *a. Shields now provide a shield bonus, instead of an armor bonus. So a shield may be used with mage armor, or bracers of armor, for example, and have the effects stack. [ES]
> [AC]*




presumably done so they can now be seperated from armour and not count towards a flat footed AC as well? always seemed odd to me that you kept a shield bonus to AC when flatfooted.



			
				Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> * However, Small and Medium creatures wielding reach weapons (such as a longspear) threaten more squares than a typical creature. For instance, a longspear-wielding human threatens all squares 10 feet (2 squares) away, even diagonally. (This is an exception to the rule that 2 squares of diagonal distance is measured as 15 feet.) *




this strikes me as a VERY odd change, and one for the worse. since a character now is forced to move at least 20' in order to leave a threatened area along the diagonal. anything that makes reach weapons more effective in the manner, is a much greater benefit to NPCs than to PCs. and that to me is a step in the wrong direction.



			
				Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> *  If you're using a tripping weapon, and would be tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon instead *




does the decision to drop the weapon come before or after the counter trip attack is resolved? (come to think of it, i'm not sure of the answer to this in 3e either :shrug

~NegZ


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone (Jun 4, 2003)

*Re: Re: Compiled 3.5 Revisions*



			
				Negative Zero said:
			
		

> *this strikes me as a VERY odd change, and one for the worse. since a character now is forced to move at least 20' in order to leave a threatened area along the diagonal. anything that makes reach weapons more effective in the manner, is a much greater benefit to NPCs than to PCs. and that to me is a step in the wrong direction. *




I had already implemented this as a house rule before 3.5 was announced, because without it there is the odd ability to approach a creature with a reach weapon along a diagonal while being immune to attack.  It's one of the faults of a square grid (you don't have this problem with hexes, for example) -- it's off either way, but IMO this approach is better than the "10' reach weapons don't reach 2 diagonals" problem.

A PC can still get out of reach of an NPC with a longspear with 15 feet of diagonal movement (2 squares) -- taking an AoO, as you should.  Before you couls get out of reach with a 5' diagonal step, not taking an AoO.


----------



## Shard O'Glase (Jun 4, 2003)

daTim said:
			
		

> *I noticed in the new Dungeon magazine that rogues and assassins get  Hide in Plain Sight. Though it didnt say which level, it was built in to the character block. *




Haen't seen whole game yet, etc etc

But that is a fairly big powerboost. Now don't get me wrong if the freakin ranger gets it the rogue and assassin definetly should, but still its a great ability and rogues were dang near top of my list of classes that didn't need a power-up.


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone (Jun 4, 2003)

Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> *
> But that is a fairly big powerboost. Now don't get me wrong if the freakin ranger gets it the rogue and assassin definetly should, but still its a great ability and rogues were dang near top of my list of classes that didn't need a power-up. *




The only examples in the magazine with HIPS are Rog10/Asn8 multi-classes.

The next comparable character is a Rog7, which doesn't have the ability -- so while it could be a rogue special ability at 8-10, I think it's more likely it is an Assassin ability.


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone (Jun 4, 2003)

When asked if there would be a "Remove Fatigue" spell in the game:



> Not specifically, but many of the omnibus "fix-me-up" spells have been expanded in scope to cover more of the conditions that characters can find themselves suffering, while staying true to their thematic roots.
> 
> Heal, for instance, fixes exhaustion and fatigue (among a laundry-list of other conditions).
> 
> ...


----------



## Shard O'Glase (Jun 4, 2003)

That's a nice power up for the fixer upers like clerics and a power down for the fixer downers whoch includes all spellcasting classes.  

The save or else spells lose a lot of bang for their buck if you don't even really have to be prepared for it to counter it.


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone (Jun 5, 2003)

More summarized Andy Collins tidbits:

- The power of tanglefoot bags has been reduced (mechanics unspecified).

- Heward's Handy Haversack’s utility has been clarified (it's not a free action to pull things out, but a move action that doesn't provoke AoOs, since you don't have to dig around in it).

- Quaal's feather token: tree doesn't kill monsters by exploding them from inside.


----------



## Dauntless (Jun 5, 2003)

bump


----------



## Karanaj (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: Re: Compiled 3.5 Revisions*



			
				Negative Zero said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Seems to me that your question is answered in the quote you gave. It says "would be tripped" which, to me, means that the counter attempt has already succeeded (you WOULD be tripped if you didn't drop the weapon)


----------



## CrimsonTemplar (Jun 5, 2003)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> *More summarized Andy Collins tidbits:
> 
> - The power of tanglefoot bags has been reduced (mechanics unspecified).*




Sux if you live in Giant occupied lands.

*



			- Heward's Handy Haversack’s utility has been clarified (it's not a free action to pull things out, but a move action that doesn't provoke AoOs, since you don't have to dig around in it).
		
Click to expand...


*
That's better.  Those things are annoying.

*



			- Quaal's feather token: tree doesn't kill monsters by exploding them from inside.
		
Click to expand...


*
So....they're just more regular because of the extra fiber in their diet?


----------



## Felon (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: Spell Focus*



			
				Jhyrryl said:
			
		

> Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus at +2 aren't really broke.  What broke was when WotC removed the Spell Focus effect from Wizard school specialization to give spellcasters something useful to do with feat mechanics.  What's broke is that people specialize in Divination and give up Necromancy (to get an extra spell slot at each spell level while giving up little in return)




Give up little in return? You mean like all the really cool stuff clerics have to give up in order to get a bonus domain spell per level (not to mention two free domain powers)?

Newsflash: the wizard who specialized in Divination isn't exactly getting a lot, so why should he give up a lot?



> and then take Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus in Evocation.  If Spell Focus had a prerequisite like "Specialization in the chosen school", this kind of change would be unneeded.




Uggh. The wizard doesn't need more handicaps, folks. He pays the piper plenty for those fireballs.


----------



## Felon (Jun 5, 2003)

Psion said:
			
		

> I dunno. Some people on NKL are bringing up a very compelling point. It seems like many of the classes are being "dungeon optomized" that don't really need to be. I worry that they might be overdoing the druid. What the class needs is flexibility, not raw power, but from the sounds of it, it sounds like they will be getting the latter.




Damn disturbing. What the druid needed was a role within the average party, rather than a half-arsed hodgepodge of other classes roles (healing, scouting, nuking, etc). I always saw the druid as being the buffmaster extraordinaire; the one guy you could go to for a bull's strength or cat's grace, or a barkskin or stoneskin.

That, and they seriously need to lose the lame wooden weapon/armor restrictions that discourage multi-classing. You want them to use wooden shields and scythes and sickles and slings? Just limit their weapon proficiences appropriately. Monks and rogues and clerics don't seem to have a problem wielding a greatsword--be it spiritual or practical--once they've taken a fighter level.


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone (Jun 5, 2003)

Don't get excited about the druid until you see him.

More tidbits:

Druid animal companions:  The animal companion rules have changed; it's no longer purely a "HD = level" link. (There's a lot more to it than that, of course.) Since an awakened animal isn't an animal any more (it's a magical beast), it won't be able to serve as an animal companion (or a familiar or paladin's mount, for that matter). Such a creature could still be included in the party as a cohort (using the Leadership feat, for example), or simply as an NPC ally


----------



## Felon (Jun 6, 2003)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> The only examples in the magazine with HIPS are Rog10/Asn8 multi-classes.
> 
> The next comparable character is a Rog7, which doesn't have the ability -- so while it could be a rogue special ability at 8-10, I think it's more likely it is an Assassin ability.




Right, as far as those characters are concerned anyway. HiPS would also fit in nicely as one of the rogues' special abilities that he selects at 10th, 13th, 17th, and 20th level. 

Then again, equipment isn't listed for those characters either. Could very well be an item that grants them that ability. Come to think of the, The Two Towers film gives us an excellent example of two hobbits hiding from orcs in plain sight using their elven cloaks.


----------



## Felon (Jun 6, 2003)

One thing I definitely have bad feelings about is the feat _Improved Grapple_. Ed Stark said in his Mortality.Net interview that players would be given more options for defending themselves against grappling. If this is the same Improved Grapple that's featured in Urban Arcanna, then I sure hope this isn't what he was talking about, since it just makes monsters that have this feat way more of a pain in the ass than they were before. 

For those that haven't seen UA, the Improved Grapple feat eliminates the AoO provoked by the touch attack required to initiate a grapple. Eliminates it outright; no penalties, no tradeoffs, no mitigating factors. Just go ahead and snatch up that pesky PC you Huge monster with the +30 grapple bonus.  Oh, AND it gives the attacker a +4 bonus on all grapple checks, so make that a 34.  

This is much worse than the Improved Grab ability ever was. At the very least, the Close Quarters Combat feat from Sword & Fist should've been included with the PHB as well (which is the best defense out there against Improved Grab, but of course doesn't make any mention of Improved Grapple so unless WotC makes specific mention of it at some point that'll have to be a GM's call).


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone (Jun 6, 2003)

Why is Improved Grapple such a problem?

All if the Improved ____ feats will eliminate the attack of opportunity for that special attack, and if the trends with Improve Trip & Disarm continue, likely grant a +4 bonus as well.  It's a consistent mechanic, and results in a viable unarmed combat ability.  Improved grab lets a melee attack that succeeds (and deals damage) start a grapple as a free action; this effectively trades that damage for a touch attack (and the grapple from Improved Grab didn't cause a AoO anyway) -- so I fail to see how this is worse.


----------



## Felon (Jun 6, 2003)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> Why is Improved Grapple such a problem? All if the Improved ____ feats will eliminate the attack of opportunity for that special attack, and if the trends with Improve Trip & Disarm continue, likely grant a +4 bonus as well.




Oh, there are many reasons. In general, being grappled by a foe that has a significantly better grapple check than you (as is often the case with monsters because of size bonuses) is more debilitating than those other special attacks you menition. That's why grapple checks automatically fail if the AoO hits, while the others proceed despite the AoO's results. 

Disarm and sunder require opposed attack rolls, which provide much more of a level playing field then grapple checks; the warrior classes should at least be able to hold their own against these attacks. 

Disarm, trip, and bull rush provide only a momentary benefit. The victim's next action will allow him to recover or at least move away. You can pick up your weapon, stand up, move, etc.  Even if some of those actions provokes another AoO, you're free to do what you will. And a sunder's effects are even more unnoticeable provided the weapon doesn't break. If it does, you again at least have the option to try to get away from a bad situation. A grapple lasts until you can escape or your opponent lets go.

Worst of all, an easy grapple is an easy pin, and pinned is not a placed any PC wants to be.

At any rate, if a feat adds a +4 to Disarm, Trip, or Sunder attempt, then I do indeed also lump those into the "bad feat" category. A +4 is too big of a bonus. 



> It's a consistent mechanic, and results in a viable unarmed combat ability.




Yes, in the case of Improved Grapple, _very_ viable. In the case of certain creatures with that feat, decidedly *too* viable.



> Improved grab lets a melee attack that succeeds (and deals damage) start a grapple as a free action; this effectively trades that damage for a touch attack (and the grapple from Improved Grab didn't cause a AoO anyway) -- so I fail to see how this is worse. [/B]




Lol, I know I wasn't hallucinating all the people on these board discussing what a problem Improved Grab was...Not just the whiners neither...

Now, because Improved Grapple is a feat, it can be attached to any critter.


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone (Jun 7, 2003)

Added some Dragon 309 info (much of which still requires clarification).


----------



## Steverooo (Jun 7, 2003)

*And for the 45th time...*



			
				Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> *Don't get excited about the druid until you see him.
> 
> More tidbits:
> 
> Druid animal companions:  The animal companion rules have changed; it's no longer purely a "HD = level" link. (There's a lot more to it than that, of course.) Since an awakened animal isn't an animal any more (it's a magical beast), it won't be able to serve as an animal companion (or a familiar or paladin's mount, for that matter). Such a creature could still be included in the party as a cohort (using the Leadership feat, for example), or simply as an NPC ally *




Unless 3.5e changes it, the duration of _Animal Friendship_ is "Instant", not "Permanent".  Once friendly, the change in type affects it no more than a _Polymorph_ would.


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone (Jun 7, 2003)

*Re: And for the 45th time...*



			
				Steverooo said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Unless 3.5e changes it, the duration of Animal Friendship is "Instant", not "Permanent".  Once friendly, the change in type affects it no more than a Polymorph would. *




It may change, then.  That tidbit is a paraphrased quote from Andy Collins.


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone (Jun 8, 2003)

Added new skill & spell info as of Dragon 309.


----------



## pech21 (Jun 8, 2003)

On page 31 of Dngeon Mag 100, the 10th level Sorcerer has a BAB of 7/2 *i.e. the 3/4 prgression as cleric or rogue).

I'm hoping this is just an error, as it seems a bit too good....


----------



## Dalamar (Jun 8, 2003)

pech21 said:
			
		

> *On page 31 of Dngeon Mag 100, the 10th level Sorcerer has a BAB of 7/2 *i.e. the 3/4 prgression as cleric or rogue).
> 
> I'm hoping this is just an error, as it seems a bit too good.... *



Does the sorcerer in question have the spells per day and/or spells known as the 3E sorcerer?


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jun 8, 2003)

pech21 said:
			
		

> *On page 31 of Dngeon Mag 100, the 10th level Sorcerer has a BAB of 7/2 *i.e. the 3/4 prgression as cleric or rogue).
> 
> I'm hoping this is just an error, as it seems a bit too good.... *




Not THAT could be interesting....not sure if its bad or good though. Just...interesting.


----------



## pech21 (Jun 8, 2003)

Dalamar said:
			
		

> *Does the sorcerer in question have the spells per day and/or spells known as the 3E sorcerer? *




Seems to (don't have PHB in front of me)


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone (Jun 8, 2003)

I'm betting typo on that one, since the Ogre Mage Sor 4 on page 42 has the correct BAB.  Too bad there isn't another high-level Sor to double check (well, there is, but the 9th level Mind Flayer Sorcerer says "See Monster Manual pg xxx" -- WTF?)


----------



## pech21 (Jun 8, 2003)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> *I'm betting typo on that one, since the Ogre Mage Sor 4 on page 42 has the correct BAB.  Too bad there isn't another high-level Sor to double check (well, there is, but the 9th level Mind Flayer Sorcerer says "See Monster Manual pg xxx" -- WTF?) *




Since it specifically references the iteritive attack, and the familiar has the BAB of 7 as well, it seems just as likely that the Ogre Mage has the incorrect BAB.

Have posted this to Andy Collins board hoping for more info...


----------



## JoeBlank (Jun 8, 2003)

pech21 said:
			
		

> *On page 31 of Dngeon Mag 100, the 10th level Sorcerer has a BAB of 7/2 *i.e. the 3/4 prgression as cleric or rogue).
> 
> I'm hoping this is just an error, as it seems a bit too good.... *




That is flat-out crazy, man. I have said before that I suspect WoTC is sandbagging us when they say the changes to the sorcerer are minimal. If the option to switch out any spells at all, ever, is added then that is huge. 3/4 BAB would be beyond huge.

Of course, the sorcerer I am playing now is structured to avoid the low BAB. He has no ray or other ranged touch attack spells, and in fact has never made a roll to hit.


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone (Jun 8, 2003)

Let's hope Andy can un-confuse us.  Good catch, pech21.


----------



## Quasqueton (Jun 9, 2003)

> Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus each provide +1 to save DCs (instead of +2). [Du]



Like others have said here, this just seems like a bad idea. But then it struck me: what if this is a typo? If I understand correctly, this "rumor" came from figuring the stats of a _Dungeon_ adventure NPC. What if the stats include the Spell Focus feat, but missed the Greater Spell Focus feat? Maybe the GSF feat was added after the initial stat write up and the editor missed the update?

Quasqueton


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone (Jun 9, 2003)

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> *Like others have said here, this just seems like a bad idea. But then it struck me: what if this is a typo? If I understand correctly, this "rumor" came from figuring the stats of a Dungeon adventure NPC. What if the stats include the Spell Focus feat, but missed the Greater Spell Focus feat? Maybe the GSF feat was added after the initial stat write up and the editor missed the update?
> *




It's certainly possible ... but it is consistent across multiple stat blocks (unlike the sorcerer BAB thing).  Heck, nothing in the original post could be ultimatly true, for that matter.

I suspect that if SF and GSF have been reduced (as 3-4 stat blocks seem to indicate), that they may have been augmented in ways we haven't yet seen.  Or not.  We'll know in about siz weeks, at any rate.


----------



## Jaws (Jun 9, 2003)

*Kneeling*

Dragon 309
Paragons of War, The Ecology of the Hobgoblin
While reading this article I came across this little tidbit.
The last paragraph on page 57 states:

Hit the Dirt: If hobgoblin archers are giving you a hard time, try *kneeling* or even lying prone. Such positioning imposes a -2 or -4 penalty, respectively, on ranged attacks against you.


Peace and smiles 

j.


----------



## Dave Turner (Jun 9, 2003)

EDIT: Thought I had something, turns out I don't.  Nothing to see here.  Move along.


----------



## pech21 (Jun 9, 2003)

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> *Like others have said here, this just seems like a bad idea. But then it struck me: what if this is a typo? If I understand correctly, this "rumor" came from figuring the stats of a Dungeon adventure NPC. What if the stats include the Spell Focus feat, but missed the Greater Spell Focus feat? Maybe the GSF feat was added after the initial stat write up and the editor missed the update?
> 
> Quasqueton *




Actually, there is confirmation on the bonuses going to +1 on Andy's board.


----------



## Skaros (Jun 9, 2003)

and in the new Dragon magazine that showed up in my mailbox yesterday.


----------



## Grayhawk (Jun 9, 2003)

*Re: Kneeling*



			
				Jaws said:
			
		

> *Dragon 309
> Paragons of War, The Ecology of the Hobgoblin
> While reading this article I came across this little tidbit.
> The last paragraph on page 57 states:
> ...



So that's basically identical to the current rules?

PH, p.132.


----------



## Felon (Jun 9, 2003)

We've had rules for kneeling? Since when? Does it take a move-equivalent action to stand up from, just like being prone?

Hmm. Seems odd that crouching gives a -2 penalty to the attacker, while a one-step size decrease only nets a -1, eh?


----------



## pech21 (Jun 9, 2003)

Felon said:
			
		

> *We've had rules for kneeling? Since when? Does it take a move-equivalent action to stand up from, just like being prone?
> 
> Hmm. Seems odd that crouching gives a -2 penalty to the attacker, while a one-step size decrease only nets a -1, eh? *




I wonder if those stack...


----------



## pech21 (Jun 9, 2003)

pech21 said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Since it specifically references the iteritive attack, and the familiar has the BAB of 7 as well, it seems just as likely that the Ogre Mage has the incorrect BAB.
> 
> Have posted this to Andy Collins board hoping for more info... *





Andy has confirmed that this is an error.

Sorry for the confusion.


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## coyote6 (Jun 9, 2003)

In addition to _wave of exhaustion_, there's also a 3rd level _ray of exhaustion_. Some of the Dungeon #100 casters have it, and the gauth from the 05/11/03 In the Works has it as an eye ray; the gauth description notes "no save", but it's not entirely clear whether that's gauth-specific, or _ray of exhaustion_ specific. Also from Dungeon #100 & the gauth (and the barbed devil), _scorching ray_ is 2nd level (IIRC), and apparently has no save. 

I'd wager there's a _ray of fatigue_ out there somewhere; maybe 1st level?

PS: pech21, where is the confirmation of the change to SF/GSF on Andy's board? In this thread, I see lots of discussion about it, but nothing from Andy either confirming or denying the change. (Admittedly, I tend to take that as evidence that it has changed, since saying, "There's a typo in the adventure" would be really simple . . . but it's not confirmation.)


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## pech21 (Jun 9, 2003)

*Shield Spell*

From Andy:

"Shields will give shield bonuses (as will the shield spell and the ring of force shield). "

No more cover bonus for the shield spell


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jun 9, 2003)

He also confirmed Innuendo moved to Bluff, not sense motive (Dragon is in error).


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## diaglo (Jun 9, 2003)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> *He also confirmed Innuendo moved to Bluff, not sense motive (Dragon is in error). *




 great now i have to change my character once again.


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## Drezden327 (Jun 9, 2003)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> *He also confirmed Innuendo moved to Bluff, not sense motive (Dragon is in error). *




Actually, Andy confirmed that innuendo gets split up - to send secret messages moves to Bluff; to intercept them moves to sense motive.


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## JoeBlank (Jun 9, 2003)

Glad to see Andy confirmed the sorcerer BAB error. That was too weird. 

Kudos to Andy for helping out with the rumors, and for those folks checking his boards and reporting back here.

Makes me paranoid that there was a typo that significant. Can't believe it is almost 6 weeks until we see the final product in print.


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## pech21 (Jun 9, 2003)

"Makes me paranoid that there was a typo that significant. Can't believe it is almost 6 weeks until we see the final product in print."


You would think that they would proofread these things MUCH more intensly, especially since they know that everything they print just fuels speculation.

Imagine the war that could have been started if that had been posted on the WOTC board to begin with


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jun 9, 2003)

pech21 said:
			
		

> [BImagine the war that could have been started if that had been posted on the WOTC board to begin with  [/B]




Tempting, very tempting ... 

_must resist urge ... to become ... flaming troll ... _


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## diaglo (Jun 9, 2003)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Tempting, very tempting ...
> 
> must resist urge ... to become ... flaming troll ...   *




the troll part i know about, but flaming? i thought that was Angelsboi, biorph, and Shayne.

do i need to talk to your wife?


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jun 9, 2003)

Tsk .. Tsk.

Well, given roytheodd's revelation, I wonder if this thread is still viable.  I can keep updateing the first post as info comes in.


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## pech21 (Jun 9, 2003)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> *Tsk .. Tsk.
> 
> Well, given roytheodd's revelation, I wonder if this thread is still viable.  I can keep updateing the first post as info comes in. *




But it's so much more fun to speculate


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jun 10, 2003)

And ... added roytheodd's new info.  At least this way it's all in one post.


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## DaveMage (Jun 10, 2003)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> *And ... added roytheodd's new info.  At least this way it's all in one post. *




Olgar - at this rate you'll have the entire PH by the time the new one come out!  

Pity that RoytheOdd doesn't work nights...


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## Hairy Minotaur (Jun 10, 2003)

Hey Olgar,

Two small things I missed from Dragon #309

The Endurance feat will now grant you the ability to sleep in medium armor, without suffering fatigue the next day.

and in regards to the "Crushing Despair" spell. It demoralizes foes, and the revised Barghest can use it as a spell-like ability 1/day


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jun 10, 2003)

Added full druid mechanics from WOTC website.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jun 12, 2003)

And updated again (thanks Shadowstar!).


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jun 13, 2003)

Updated with 6/12 scoops.


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## Navar (Jun 13, 2003)

bump


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jun 15, 2003)

The file got too big for easy updating (the original in Word is over 20 pages long, now), so I created a new thread with the current as well as updated information (as of 6/14).

Anyone think Morrus would like to host the original file for people to download?

Anyway -- mods, you can lock this thread now, so discussion can move to:

New Compiled 3.5 Revisions Thread


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