# I think it is kind of slow around here...(postponed)



## HolyMan (Jul 18, 2010)

Maybe it's me and way to much coffee at work before coming home to settle in to a night of posting, but I think it has been slow around the threads lately.

And I think I have time to add one more game to my growing list. I wanted to run two groups of Forge of Fury (pathfinder rules) to help me learn the system but that didn't pan out. I started a Dragon Age RP at VV's request  but so far aren't feeling the rules, maybe I should wait to see what the second set has to offer. 

I just downloaded WotBS The Scourging of Gate Pass as I am in a WotBS adventure and like it so far. The whole have to get to point A before all the bad guys in the way kill you thing. I was thinking if I ran that I would have a countdown clock and you would need to get to point A before it reached Zero. 

What else there are some things I have been looking at like running an adventure in Limbo or the Abyss or some other out of the way place as a playtester. And if I put that to the guys at LEW I won't get a "No" you'll mess up the world.  There are some high lvl guys in the RDI right now.

I have all of the 4e adventures but I'm not good at 4e but would convert them as cool adventures shouldn't go unused. 

What are people on here looking to get into? It seems maybe I should try an opposite approach. How about you form the game and I'll run it. That means whoever wishes to get into a new game should state what system they want to play in and levels and enviroment.

Now if the gamers can come to a consensus among themselves then I would be more than happy to DM/GM whatever they as a group put forth.

Just something new instead of me saying I'm going to run such and such and you have to be willing to make a character such and such and in this such and such world. I will let you all build the game and I will be here to play along.

Ok recruitment has started let's have some fun.

HM


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## renau1g (Jul 18, 2010)

Well I love 4e vs. other rules, but you've mentioned not being as comfortable with 4e. Personally, I'd love to play a mid-paragon 4e game, but it would certainly be difficult to DM without having much experience. If you are looking for some 4e gaming, you can try the L4W or LEB living worlds. Both are a bit less restrictive than I've found the LEW guys to be.


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## HolyMan (Jul 18, 2010)

Not comfortable from the players chair so far, that is true. I could run a module that would probably be easy as most encounters are already made and NPCs have set goals and all to help determine thier actions.

So if you found players and wanted to try King of the Trollhaunt Warrens or Demon Queen's Enclave I like both of those adventures.

Back when I started my DCC#8 game it was almost DQE converted for 3.5. This is whatever you the players want even if it's something I have never played remember a good RP game is 70% RPing and only 30% rules. 

HM


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## crazy_monkey1956 (Jul 19, 2010)

I could go for a good 1st Level 3.5 adventure.    Or even BECMI/RC if you can run that.


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## Scratched_back (Jul 19, 2010)

I would join any low-level 3.5 adventure without hesitation. I don't know anything about 4e, but I'm well versed in 3.5.

It wouldn't have to be starting at 1st, necessarily, anywhere up to around 4th to start would be good for me.

I always wanted to play Ravenloft, too, if you're taking requests


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## renau1g (Jul 19, 2010)

HolyMan said:


> So if you found players and wanted to try King of the Trollhaunt Warrens or Demon Queen's Enclave I like both of those adventures.
> 
> This is whatever you the players want even if it's something I have never played remember a good RP game is 70% RPing and only 30% rules.
> 
> HM




Apparently you've not read Wizards published modules, 70% RP'ing .... I think the Troll one is 98% combat... j/k


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## Myth and Legend (Jul 19, 2010)

I want us to be the villains. As such we can progress monster HD and be evil things. We go on a rape the goats / steal the men / kill the women type rampage, and maybe try to take over a country or town or something. 

Also DnD 3.5 or NARG SMASH YOU GOOD!

Narg is something Large. He no hurt. Unless you don't play 3.5.


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## crazy_monkey1956 (Jul 19, 2010)

I could go for evil.  Yes, indeed.  And critters.  I would even be willing to contribute my custom Savage Species monster progression updates.


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## Scratched_back (Jul 19, 2010)

Evil would be ace, yeah! I wouldn't be playing a monster, but an evil sadistic bastard... Sure!


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## GandalfMithrandir (Jul 19, 2010)

I could DEFINITELY go for an evil 3.5, whatever level you want me to make, I am a little busy right now, but I think I could find the time.


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## Voda Vosa (Jul 19, 2010)

Nice! Might try out a duergar, or something construct-like. Is there some golem progression class or something similar? Heck I could play that damn mummy I made for your game HM!


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## GandalfMithrandir (Jul 19, 2010)

Right now I'm thinking Heavily Scarred, blackened full plate fighter going for blackguard, wielding a greatsword, also blackened.


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## HolyMan (Jul 19, 2010)

crazy_monkey1956 said:


> I could go for a good 1st Level 3.5 adventure.  Or even BECMI/RC if you can run that.




What is BECMI/RC mean??



Scratched_back said:


> I would join any low-level 3.5 adventure without hesitation. I don't know anything about 4e, but I'm well versed in 3.5.
> 
> It wouldn't have to be starting at 1st, necessarily, anywhere up to around 4th to start would be good for me.
> 
> I always wanted to play Ravenloft, too, if you're taking requests




Ravenloft may fit into the evil game as wanted below. You will have to ask the others what they think.



renau1g said:


> Apparently you've not read Wizards published modules, 70% RP'ing .... I think the Troll one is 98% combat... j/k




In KotTHW I liked the whole save the city from destruction theme, and I lot of good RP could be going on to decide how that gets done. But your right about those modules everytime you turn a page it would describe a new encounter. Guess that's what you get for making WoW on paper.



Myth and Legend said:


> I want us to be the villains. As such we can progress monster HD and be evil things. We go on a rape the goats / steal the men / kill the women type rampage, and maybe try to take over a country or town or something.
> 
> Also DnD 3.5 or NARG SMASH YOU GOOD!
> 
> Narg is something Large. He no hurt. Unless you don't play 3.5.




Narg will get a chance to smash, if he must. I could make an NPC evil master and you all get to play his minions who are sent out to do his dirty work. Along the way raping and pilliaging can happen. (those poor goats)



crazy_monkey1956 said:


> I could go for evil. Yes, indeed. And critters. I would even be willing to contribute my custom Savage Species monster progression updates.




I know not of what you speak, but again as with the Ravenloft suggestion just see what the others wish to do.



GandalfMithrandir said:


> I could DEFINITELY go for an evil 3.5, whatever level you want me to make, I am a little busy right now, but I think I could find the time.




Seems we have about 5 people who wish for a low-mid lvl 3.5 evil game.



Voda Vosa said:


> Nice! Might try out a duergar, or something construct-like. Is there some golem progression class or something similar? Heck I could play that damn mummy I made for your game HM!




Whatever you want VV it isn't up to me. I guess all of you will have to come up with the character gene rules.



GandalfMithrandir said:


> Right now I'm thinking Heavily Scarred, blackened full plate fighter going for blackguard, wielding a greatsword, also blackened.




Hmmm what about your charater died in a fire and his vengeful spirit is in the armor. Or you almost died in a fire and you are trapped in the armor and looking for revenge. 

Not as slow as before this all looks promising. 

HM


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## crazy_monkey1956 (Jul 19, 2010)

BECMI/RC means Basic/Expert/Companion/Master/Immortal rules which were condensed and updated in the hardcover Rules Cyclopedia back in 1992ish.  

Savage Species is a 3.0/3.5 supplement all about playing monsters.  The book was done as the game was transitioning from 3.0 to 3.5 and so the rules contained within require a bit of updating to be fully compatible with 3.5.  The book included numerous "Monster Classes" that allow you to start a high LA, high racial HD creature at level 1.  I've personally revised and updated quite a number of those monster classes as well as created new monster classes for creatures not covered in Savage Species.


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## HolyMan (Jul 19, 2010)

crazy_monkey1956 said:


> BECMI/RC means Basic/Expert/Companion/Master/Immortal rules which were condensed and updated in the hardcover Rules Cyclopedia back in 1992ish.
> 
> Savage Species is a 3.0/3.5 supplement all about playing monsters. The book was done as the game was transitioning from 3.0 to 3.5 and so the rules contained within require a bit of updating to be fully compatible with 3.5. The book included numerous "Monster Classes" that allow you to start a high LA, high racial HD creature at level 1. I've personally revised and updated quite a number of those monster classes as well as created new monster classes for creatures not covered in Savage Species.




Ah the old boxed sets boy do I remeber those, I played them from 84-89 and had all those gazeteers for the world. In 89 2e came out and the boxes were forever forgotten .

So the Savage Species let you play like a LVL one beholder or something and grow into a full fledged one at higher LVLS??


HM


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## Shayuri (Jul 19, 2010)

In essence, yes...though I don't think a progression was made for beholders. That would be a hard one.


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## crazy_monkey1956 (Jul 19, 2010)

Almost anything.  Beholders are one of the creatures specifically not present.  But there are...

Angel, Astral Deva
Aranea
Archon, Hound
Archon, Trumpet
Athach
Barghest
Belker
Centaur
Demon, Succubus
Demon, Vrock
Devil, Hamatula
Devil, Imp
Devil, Kyton
Drider
Eladrin, Ghaele
Elemental, Air
Elemental, Earth
Elemental, Fire
Elemental, Water
Ettercap
Genie, Djinni
Genie, Efreeti
Genie, Janni
Ghoul
Giant, Fire
Giant, Frost
Giant, Stone
Golem, Flesh
Griffon
Guardinal, Avoral
Hag, Annis
Hag, Green
Hag, Sea
Harpy
Lillend
Magmin
Medusa
Mind Flayer
Minotaur
Mummy
Ogre
Ogre Mage
Rakshasa
Salamander, Flamebrother
Satyr
Shadow
Sprite, Grig
Sprite, Nixie
Sprite, Pixie
Treant
Triton
Troll
Umber Hulk

In addition, there was a series of articles on the WotC website by Sean K. Reynolds that introduced the concept of Template Classes, which applied similar rules to various templates.

I've done revisions of most of the monster classes listed above and have done up several other monster classes from other sources such as Monster Manual II.


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## HolyMan (Jul 19, 2010)

Hmm you can't say they only get like 10 lvls and cut everything they do down to 1/10 it;s normal power LOL use that would be hard.

But then how are beholders born/created and do they just plop out of a cocoon fully grown and that powerful. Hmmm be prepared no matter what we play for a "cute little beholdie" a small (basketball sized) EyeTyrant. 

HM


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## crazy_monkey1956 (Jul 19, 2010)

The Forgotten Realms has a variant beholderkin called an Eyeball which is a cat sized beholder sometimes used as a familiar by evil wizards.


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## Myth and Legend (Jul 19, 2010)

Beholder and Ilithid rules can be found in Lords of Madness. Both species get insane Prestige Classes that IMO were designed for a DM who wants to TPK the smug guys at the table. Beholder Mage especially is a "You all die. No save." type of class. Sooooo... I'd strongly suggest banning Beholder Mage and Illithid Savant.

Monkey's revisions are well balanced, although one must remember that (there i go again with the powerscaling ) monster progressions for the most part are weaker than characters of equal level.

I have never played Ravenloft but if you guys tell me how much reading i must do to get the hang of the setting, count me in! I've always wanted to check it out (and I might find something interesting to snag over for VOTD)


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## crazy_monkey1956 (Jul 19, 2010)

I've been working on a house ruled version of the monster classes that puts them on a more equal footing with standard classes.

The way they work by the book, they are meant to emulate the creature as it appears in the Monster Manual by the time you reach the end of the progression.

The basic premise I've been working with is that you don't need to match the Monster Manual entry in order to play a character with the flavor of that monster.


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## HolyMan (Jul 19, 2010)

Well and now we are not slow at all. LOL

You all agree as a group on character gene/setting/game style

And I will let you know about starting gold and game length.

HM


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## crazy_monkey1956 (Jul 19, 2010)

Characters: Evil and monsters are good for me.    I'm open to other stuff, though.  The only thing I'm set on is starting at level 1.

Setting: Negotiable.

Game Style: Negotiable.


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## Scratched_back (Jul 19, 2010)

I'll make it easy... I'd love to do Ravenloft, everything else I'm totally easy on.

Whatever, however


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## HolyMan (Jul 19, 2010)

Well and now we are not slow at all. LOL

You all agree as a group on character gene/setting/game style

And I will let you know about starting gold and game length.

HM

EDIT: Wow a double post two posts late, interesting.


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## Scratched_back (Jul 20, 2010)

Myth and Legend said:
			
		

> I have never played Ravenloft but if you guys tell me how much reading i must do to get the hang of the setting, count me in! I've always wanted to check it out.




I've never played it either, but I know it's based on the stereotypical Dracula/Transylvania setting. Also, there are two Ravenlofts, really. The first is the classic stand-alone module in which the party somehow get transported to a gloomy castle in a gloomy land and hilarity ensues, the other is the actually a campaign setting in its own right with multiple different modules available. That's pretty much all I know, I just always liked the sound of it. I'm actually avoiding learning any more about it so that I can play through it without accidentally meta-gaming.

So an evil/monstrous, 1st level, 3.5 campaign is sounding good, HM! How would people feel about some character customisation, too? Like in HM's Off to War campaign rules. Having just generated a character through them myself, I love it! Just means that you can flesh out any concept you may have for a character fully, instead of carrying some deadwood in irrelevant skils and abilities.


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## GandalfMithrandir (Jul 20, 2010)

Ravenloft would be OK for me, but I do not have the campaign setting (yet).

I will make my character kind of like Silas in the davinchi code, he is evil and does evil stuff, but he feels bad about it, eventually.


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## Scratched_back (Jul 20, 2010)

I'm completely stumped as to what I'd play actually. I'm playing a bard in one game (Run by CM) and a Sneaky Rogue/Ranger type bloke in another game (Run by HM, oddly enough), so as long as I don't play those again, I'm easy. Cleric, Paladin, Magic User of some sort. Whatever is left when everyone else has picked.

HM, how do you feel about Psionics? I've never actually read the books, I've got no idea how they work, my local groups all banned them for being ridiculously powerful, but I may get the Expanded Psionics Book (which WotC claims re-balanced them) and see how they feel - just for something different.


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## renau1g (Jul 20, 2010)

I'd be up for an evil game, regardless of game system, especially if I can be a lovable rapscallion Troll, or some other monster. 

Ravenloft may be playable as an evil monster game, but as its already so dark, we may be better served by a more happy environment, like Greyhawk or 3.5e FR, so that way our evil deeds are even more evil "Bwa-hahaha"


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## crazy_monkey1956 (Jul 20, 2010)

Evil characters in Ravenloft, however, allow us to explore getting trapped there by our own deeds, experiencing our own personal brand of Hell set up by the Dark Powers.  

I'm thinking of playing a flesh golem via monster class.  That is my initial thought.  I can go with something else if there's a need in the group.


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## HolyMan (Jul 20, 2010)

Let's see down the row.

Using the customization rules is fine I myself always hated playing a ranged/woodsmen type fighter and having heavy armor prof, and not having survival as a class skill  So that's how they came about. You'll just need to decide on point buy or roll and any other houserules.

Don't have the campaign setting either GM but am looking around Amazon.

And the Expanded Psiconics book is on my list of "Books to get back after all the ones I lost." list Just have to move it up the list if you wish to play a wilder or something.

1st lvl/Evil/Monsters Allowed/maybe starting in a generic world ending up in Ravenloft sounds about what this game is going to be. Welcome aboard renau1g 

Will need a look at your rules crazy_monkey1956 (may I call you CM? please call me HM) and who they work got them posted somewhere?

HM


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## Voda Vosa (Jul 20, 2010)

I'll use my mummy cleric if no one objects.


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## Voda Vosa (Jul 20, 2010)

A side note: Whats the need you up there have of shortening the names? Its completely annoying! Christ!


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## crazy_monkey1956 (Jul 20, 2010)

The formatting options on my personal forums are too limited to allow tables and the like so I haven't posted my revised progressions online but I can e-mail them to you (they are in Word 97 format).  PM me your e-mail address and I'll send a long a couple of samples.

Regarding psionics, everything you need to run psionics is available via the SRD.

Starting in a "normal" and ending up in Ravenloft sounds just about perfect.


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## Voda Vosa (Jul 20, 2010)

Crazy monkey: You could always get your tables and files on google docs, it has free-use spreadsheets, like excel and such. It also has nice privacy tools, to allow you to hide the files from people you want, and only sharing with those you authorize or give a link, for example.


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## HolyMan (Jul 20, 2010)

Voda Vosa said:


> A side note: Whats the need you up there have of shortening the names? Its completely annoying! Christ!




VV you are the perfect example of why I like to shorten names, 

-First I have a hard time spelling as is so all these crazy names doesn't help

-Second if I did spell someones name wrong and kept at it they may get alittle affended, your screenname is as good as a descriptor of you and I like being HolyMan not Hollyman as you sometimes call me. LOL

-It saves me time when typing not to look up the correct spelling of Voda Vosa (which I just did, not spelling perse can't remeber which order they go in)

-Having nicknames like VV or HM give use a more personal/friendly atmosphere don't you think.

Ad i always ask so if someone doesn't want a nickname they can say no it's better than using it without their ok?

On another note you said you were going to use the mummy cleric, and crazy_monkey1956 said something about a flesh golem. I think I know a way to have you all be part of a group so please leave your backgrounds undone for now as I work on something.

You may want to see how to make that mummy 1st lvl VV

HM


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## Voda Vosa (Jul 20, 2010)

It's still annoying. Look, you typed Lvl standing for level (which is not that long nor complicated to spell). I think it's a mania the lot of you have. And Hollyman is more cheerfully.


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## Scratched_back (Jul 20, 2010)

Feel free to "SB" me, as Scratched_back is a joke name I used about 8,000,000 years ago (approximately) and no longer am fond of. There's no facility to change username here on ENWorld, is there?

Back to the game - I'd quite like to play something scrawny and sinister (especially if we have the big mook slots taken up with a mummy and a flesh golem, hahah) like maybe an illithid or a Gith... Gith... I forget the types and the differences between them. Gith-yankee? Some other Giths... I'll look into that!


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## crazy_monkey1956 (Jul 20, 2010)

Yes, actually, you can change your username.  I did it a couple of years ago.

Post in the Meta forum, making a request to that effect.

Githyanki are the evil marauders of the Astral Plane who wield silver great swords.

Githzerai are the contemplative monk types who dwell in Limbo.


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## renau1g (Jul 20, 2010)

I'm a githyanki 

oh, and r1 is an easy short-name


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## crazy_monkey1956 (Jul 20, 2010)

You're not an astro-droid are you?  Have a big brother named R2?


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## HolyMan (Jul 20, 2010)

LOL thanks r1 and I am a Gith-yankee since I'm in the US LOL.

Please talk amognst your self the roles of your characters and what type of game you are looking for so I can have an ideal of what types of encounters to create (already starting the "goat farm" because some of you will need to eat and a raid seems good place to start).

Type of game includes serious/funny in addition to want to rule the world/want to destroy this city or that country. I am looking on Amazon for Ravenloft books are they all Sword&Sorcery for 3.5?? WotC didn't do anything for the setting? i may get the older version and just adapt.

HM


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## crazy_monkey1956 (Jul 20, 2010)

That is correct, the 3.0/3.5 era Ravenloft books were done by Sword & Sorcery, an imprint of White Wolf.  They were well done for the most part, though flavor wise nothing beats the 2nd Edition Domains of Dread hardcover.


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## renau1g (Jul 20, 2010)

Wizards published an adventure didn't they?

I think if we're playing different races, perhaps and evil wizard/necromancer/ whoever could have captured us all as either infants or in the eggs, or however the monsters are born (or in the golum's case, created), and tasks us with doing his evil bidding, but being that we're evil creatures, maybe down the road we can turn on him, or go do our own mis-adventures? 

If you would be able to crazy monkey, could you e-mail the rules to my username at gmail.com? If you're cool with that, if not, I understand.


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## crazy_monkey1956 (Jul 20, 2010)

WotC published Expedition to Castle Ravenloft late in the 3.5 era which was a revamped 3.5 version of the original I6: Ravenloft adventure.

Which progression did you want?  Githyanki?  Psionic version or non-psionic version?


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## renau1g (Jul 20, 2010)

Actually, Troll if you don't mind. I was refering to my enworld XP level with the githyanki comment 

Oh, and we don't talk about my brother anymore, after he helped save the galaxy, he's too cool to talk to us anymore, and when he does, that little bugger has such an attitude ;0


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## HolyMan (Jul 20, 2010)

I was thinking that an evil wizard/necromancer was killed by a group of heroes and his sanctum burnt to the ground. You were all minions of his in one way or another. And now you are out an employer, a home, and a cushy job. So we would start in the pile of ruins (were you would find your starting gear), and band together for whatever purposes (although these heroes always work in groups and seem to survive). 

Now like I said we will probably start in a generic world and end up in Ravenloft because that's where evil goes. But that is just geneic background you can all adjust as needed.

HM


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## renau1g (Jul 20, 2010)

I like it HM


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## crazy_monkey1956 (Jul 20, 2010)

Sounds very excellent.  Don't expect my flesh golem to be much of a conversationalist or decision maker.  

R1, check your e-mail here in a minute (HM, you'll be CCed).


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## HolyMan (Jul 20, 2010)

thanks I do have my moments 

Ok but only if being CCed doesn't hurt 

HM


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## Scratched_back (Jul 20, 2010)

That sounds superb, HM.

I'm going to play a magic user of some kind then, an apprentice role perhaps. I won't bother with Psionics as I'm not familiar with them (at all) and it seems you aren't either. I'll save us both the hassle. 

So, Illithid perhaps, or... hmm... what other out-of-the ordinary evil magic users are there? I could just play a human, but where's the fun in that!


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## crazy_monkey1956 (Jul 20, 2010)

FYI, the Mind Flayer progression I have was done with the psionic version in mind.  I'd have to tweak it a bit to make it fit the Monster Manual version.


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## HolyMan (Jul 20, 2010)

Well if no one plays a standard race I think you may find it hard to mingle and gather info. Unless you have a good disguise skill. You should all decide I will try and make the game 70% RP and 30% combat unless you as a group decide otherwise.

Also length/long terms goals for the game, discuss those to let me know what to be thinking on as an overall theme. Maybe the Ravenloft part is a quick lay over as you get trapped then escape. Or taking over a realm.

HM


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## Scratched_back (Jul 20, 2010)

Hmm, good point on the mingling and so on, yes. I'll have a think tonight about something less obvious, I may even choose human, depending on what class I choose... The feat is sometimes amazing valuable. I'll have a think.

Don't bother with that Illithid conversion, CM, although I appreciate the offer.


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## GandalfMithrandir (Jul 20, 2010)

Human fighter tank build guy


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## HolyMan (Jul 20, 2010)

Possible bodyguard GM?? 

And SB I think it is a no brainer for first lvl human bonus feat (Toughness) especially for a wizard. 

HM


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## GlassEye (Jul 20, 2010)

Scratched_back said:


> That sounds superb, HM.
> 
> I'm going to play a magic user of some kind then, an apprentice role perhaps. I won't bother with Psionics as I'm not familiar with them (at all) and it seems you aren't either. I'll save us both the hassle.
> 
> So, Illithid perhaps, or... hmm... what other out-of-the ordinary evil magic users are there? I could just play a human, but where's the fun in that!




A spellcasting Skeletal Champion seems pretty cool.  Just an idea...


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## GandalfMithrandir (Jul 20, 2010)

Fighter class for the feats  also if I can be referred to as Gandalf that would be super, because sometimes GM can stand for Game Master, which gets confusing, when I am the game master, it works out ok I'm not mad, it just avoids confusion. Thank you!


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## Scratched_back (Jul 20, 2010)

GlassEye said:


> A spellcasting Skeletal Champion seems pretty cool.  Just an idea...




Whilst that is very, very cool, a character with d4 hp/lvl and no CON bonus is suicidal! Err... that is... if Undead can commit suicide 

Interest concept though, I may think some more about a skeleton. Alter self would fool those pesky villagers, too. Then again, so would a fireball to the face.


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## crazy_monkey1956 (Jul 20, 2010)

That template is for Pathfinder evidently and would need a little tweaking to make it 3.5 compatible.  For one thing, the Undead type changes all current future hit dice to d12s.  The class skills for its racial hit dice would also need to be revised slightly, most likely to Climb, Disguise, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Religion), Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, and Spot.  I'd assign the template a Level Adjustment of +2.


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## Scratched_back (Jul 20, 2010)

I'll have to refresh my memory on level adjustment, I've never bothered with it before because I've had no interest in any of the races. I am rapidly warming to the idea of some sort of skeletal caster, though. As long as I had access to _Alter Self_ and similar things.

Any other templates spring to mind that might fit the bill, CM? I bow to your experience here!


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## crazy_monkey1956 (Jul 20, 2010)

Necropolitan is a template in Libris Mortis.  It is Level Adjustment +0 and changes your type to undead, with no other changes.

Gravetouched Ghoul is another template in Libris Mortis that gives you the benefits of being a ghoul without losing your original racial traits or class levels.  Its Level Adjustment is +2.

Mummified Creature is yet another template from Libris Mortis.  As with Gravetouched Ghoul, it gives you most of the abilities of a Mummy without sacrificing your existing racial traits or class abilities.  Level Adjustment +4.


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## Scratched_back (Jul 20, 2010)

Ahh, I don't have Libris Mortis, although now you mention it, the book of the dead would of course be the logical place to look. Time for some net research.


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## GlassEye (Jul 21, 2010)

Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary also has a lot of Dread X templates which include a Dread Skeleton.  And those _are_ 3.5e.


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## Myth and Legend (Jul 21, 2010)

Cliched Creepy Demonic Little Girl reporting! She drove her mother insane after making her consume the flesh of her husband and her other children, and then sent her on a rampage of lust, offering her to any man interested, only to brutally murder them in their sleep afterwards. The little bastard ran away from the angry mob + chirch inquisitor, and is now happily exploiting the gullable peasants who only see her as a fragile eight year old. She is still dragging her mother along, compelling her to do her bidding, the wretched woman following against her will.

The mechanics are from Heroes of Horror:

[sblock=Unholy Scion]Not all births that follow from the mating of an evil outsider and a mortal result in a half-fiend. If the female partner in such a union is impregnated in an area of high taint, the result is the unholy scion. An unholy scion can also be created when a fiend mentally possess an unborn child within the womb. In either case, it is a creature with fiendish power and malignance, all the more terrifying for its ability to pass as mortal.

Even worse, the horror gestating in its mother’s womb is already fully intelligent and possesses the ability to influence its mother’s actions and observe the world through her senses. A mortal woman in such straits is often compelled to commit all manner of depraved acts, without ever fully understanding why she is forced to act in such ways—at least, not until the child is born.

Unholy scions look like normal members of their mortal parent’s race, but they are subtly disturbing. Their features might be ever so slightly off, their eyes possessed of an evil gleam, or they might simply make everyone around them nervous for no obvious cause. The overwhelming majority of unholy scions are humanoid, although animal scions are not unheard of.

All unholy scions are irredeemably evil. By the time the child is born, it is no longer possible to separate the possessing fiend from the newly developed mind and soul; they are one, forever intertwined. The fiend can never return to its original form, and slaying one requires slaying the other. The precise personality of the child depends on the nature of the fiend parent or possessor. Unholy scions formed from devils are deceptive and scheming, while those possessed by demons are likely to be more wantonly destructive. Unholy scions formed from taint rather than possession tend toward chaotic.

“Unholy scion” is an inherited template that can be added to any living humanoid or animal (referred to hereafter as the base creature). Animal scions are exceptionally rare; the overwhelming majority of unholy scions are humanoids.

An unholy scion uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

*Size and Type:* The creature’s type changes to outsider (evil, native). Do not recalculate Hit Dice, base attack bonus, or saving throws. Size is unchanged.

*Armor Class:* The unholy power of a scion grants it a deflection bonus to AC equal to its Charisma modifier (minimum 1).

*Attack:* An unholy scion gains a claw attack if it did not already possess one. (The creature’s nails or claws do not appear to be any stronger or sharper than normal for its race.) If the base creature can use weapons, the scion retains this ability. A scion fighting without weapons uses its claws when making an attack action. When it has a weapon, it usually uses the weapon instead.

*Full Attack:* An unholy scion fighting without weapons uses its claws when making a full attack. If armed with a weapon, it uses the weapon as its primary attack and its claws as a natural secondary attack.

*Damage:* Unholy scions have claw attacks. Use the damage values in the table below, or the base creature’s damage values (if any), whichever is greater. (cut the table, Medium is 1d4)

*Special Attacks:* An unholy scion retains all the special attacks of the base creature and gains the following special attacks.

_*Familial Charm (Su):* _An unholy scion’s mother is under a constant charm person or charm animal effect (as appropriate), generated by the scion. The mother might be aware that her actions are inappropriate, even that her child is evil, but she cannot shake her emotional devotion to it. The scion can switch between its own senses and its mother’s at will as a free action. The scion can use any of its spell-like abilities with its mother, rather than itself, as the source, much as wizards can deliver touch attacks through their familiars.

Familial charm does not allow a save, and applies even before the scion’s actual birth (since the unborn scion is already intelligent and knowledgeable enough to have its own agenda).

*Spell-Like Abilities (Sp):* An unholy scion with an Intelligence or Wisdom score of 8 or higher has spell-like abilities depending on its Hit Dice, as indicated on the table below. These abilities are cumulative. Unless otherwise noted, an ability is usable once per day. Caster level equals the creature’s HD, and the save DC is Charisma-based.

*Unholy Strike (Su):* An unholy scion’s natural weapons and any melee weapon it wields are treated as evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. In addition, all such attacks deal an extra 2d6 points of damage against good-aligned opponents.

*Special Qualities:* An unholy scion has all the special qualities of the base creature, plus the following special qualities.

*Damage reduction* 5/good or magic (if HD 11 or less) or 10/good or magic (if HD 12 or more).
*Darkvision *out to 60 feet.
*Fast healing* 4.
Immunity to poison and mind-affecting spells and abilities.
*Instant Knowledge:* The moment a fetus is corrupted or possessed, it gains a working knowledge of the world and has full access to its mental abilities, skills, and spelllike abilities.
*Resistance *to acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5, and fire 5.
*Spell resistance* equal to creature’s HD + 10 (maximum 35).
*Abilities:* Increase from the base creature as follows: Dex +2, Int +6, Wis +2, Cha +4. (Note: Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma modifi ers apply even before birth.)

*Skills:* An unholy scion gains skill points as an outsider and has skill points equal to (8 + Int modifi er) × (HD + 3). Do not include Hit Dice from class levels in this calculation—a scion gains outsider skill points only for its racial Hit Dice, and gains the normal amount of skill points for its class levels. Treat skills from the base creature’s list as class skills and other skills as cross-class.

*Organization:* Unholy scions are usually solitary creatures (not counting any minions they might gain), regardless of the proclivities of the base creature.

*Challenge Rating:* HD 4 or less, as base creature +1; HD 5 to 10, as base creature +2; HD 11 or more, as base creature +3.

*Alignment:* Always evil (any).

*Level Adjustment:* +5.

*HD:*.......................*Abilities:*

*1-2*....................... Charm animal or charm person 3/day1
*3-4*....................... Desecrate
*5-6*....................... Enervation, protection from good 3/day
*7-8*....................... Major image 3/day, poison 3/day
*9-10*..................... Dominate animal or dominate person1, baleful polymorph
*11-12*....................Animate dead (An unholy scion can control up to four times its HD in skeletons and zombies with this ability, in addition to any similar ability the scion might gain from class features), True seeing 3/day
*13-14*..................... Unholy aura 3/day, unhallow
*15-16*..................... Harm
*17-18*..................... Gate (This ability can only open a gate to the home plane of the parent or possessing fiend who created the scion. If the scion was created by taint rather than by fiendish possession, the gate opens to the Abyss.)
*19-20*..................... Polymorph any object​[/sblock]Not sure how this can be scaled per level, the template is LA +5. Also the mother can be a level 1 Commoner since I won't have Leadership and can't justify her having class levels. That might change later on?

​


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## GandalfMithrandir (Jul 21, 2010)

screw conflicted bad guy, I'm just gonna go all out evil twisted, sadistic jerk. The kind of guy I WISH I could put against my PCs, but they would just kill him anyway, this guy might survive...


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## crazy_monkey1956 (Jul 21, 2010)

That Unholy Scion is deliciously horrific.  I like it.  

I could probably work up a template progression for it if you and Holy Man desire.


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## HolyMan (Jul 21, 2010)

Yes I got scared just reading her semi-background 

I see one character the Dark Powers will be watching with interest. And go ahad and see what you can do crazy_monkey1956 to bring it down for lvl one status.

Also while on that topic, your progressions for the troll and flesh golem are very good. So going by them the character is a full fledged monster by the time they reach their max lvl? And with the troll is it more like he is growing up than actually training (as it is with standard classes) I get that from the he would start at medium size and end up large. 

So I figure he will be growing up. But that can't be the case with the flesh golem how do you explain away it's increase in abilities. Not that you need to just want to have something to RP with.

Also A troll may take lvls in another class as it is "growing up" correct?

HM


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## crazy_monkey1956 (Jul 21, 2010)

By the rules as written in Savage Species, a monster character must complete their monster class before multi-classing.  So, a troll character would have to complete all 11 levels of the Troll "class" before taking a level of a regular class.

However, in my own games, I often house rule that a monster character can multi-class whenever they like.  Note that, regardless of when they are allowed to multi-class a monster character's monster class always counts as a Favored Class in addition to any other Favored Class they may have.

Template classes are a special case since they do not provide actual HD (they are purely LA).  Thus a character taking a template class usually has to take a level of a traditional class or monster progression at 1st level and then start taking their template class levels.  This works well for acquired templates like Lycanthrope or Vampire as it allows the character develop into their curse over time.  With inherited templates, it can represent the character's true nature revealing itself over time.  For example, the Unholy Scion character is still a child and progressing in the template merely means the character is unlocking her infernal powers as she ages.

With many creatures, the monster class can represent the character "growing up" or maturing into its full abilities.  With something like a Flesh Golem and other construct type characters I generally go with one of two styles of back stories.  Either 1) the character used to be a fully operational member of its type but was severely damaged.  It's level progression represents a slow self-repair process OR 2) the character is newly constructed and the enchantments were either interrupted or intentionally designed to give the creature power over time to allow the creature to mature into its abilities.


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## Myth and Legend (Jul 21, 2010)

The Unholy Scion is:

LA 5
It grants static bonuses (SR, Attribute bonuses, Immunites etc.)
It grants scaling bonuses based on HD (SLAs, SR, etc.)

It is also explicitly stated that it gets It's Familial Charm (controlling the mother) and it's attribute bonuses even before it is born.

The way i see it, it can be done like so: Static bonuses scale from level 1 to 5, scaling bonuses progress normally per level.

The problem is that I want her to be human but one can't normally determine how many hit die the character gets on level up without also getting monster HD or class levels. If she got Outsider HD she could have been progressed as a creature, but the template specifically states it does not recalculate HD.


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## HolyMan (Jul 21, 2010)

All sounds good to me 

Even the house rule if a baby troll picks up a sword and starts using it over its little claws then at the next character lvl I would allow them to take a level in fighter.

So thier are different progression types for the different styles of monsters guess I need to work on my mini-beholder LOL 

HM


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## Voda Vosa (Jul 21, 2010)

If I would like to play, an evil wizard trapped into the body of a golem, clay, stone, any but flesh (They are nasty things, yuck!), how could I crunch that?


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## crazy_monkey1956 (Jul 21, 2010)

The _Awaken Construct_ spell in the Spell Compendium grants a construct a humanoid level of intellect, self-awarenes, and indentity.

You could simply use the mechanics of the spell and instead of the construct becoming self-aware something goes wrong and the caster of the spell accidentally transfers his own consciousness into the construct.

Mechanically, from 1st level, the character would use the normal monster progression for the Golem, but instead of the monster's normal adjustments to Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma, it has normal scores in those attributes (no bonuses or penalties).  From a roleplaying perspective, the transfer was traumatic enough that he lost much of his former power and must now regain it.

Regarding the Unholy Scion, I would probably treat it like a base race, allowing it to provide certain modifiers to start and then additional levels in the template class provide the rest of the abilities.  Say, a Human Unholy Scion gains +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma.  The character could also still be a child and thus start at Small size (with all of the associated bonuses and penalties) and a -2 penalty to Strength.


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## Myth and Legend (Jul 21, 2010)

Now the only thing we need to figure out is HD, BAB and saves so she can progress normally. At lvl 1 she won't be imbalanced with her mental stats, as she won't be able to use them that much. She is a Small creature that can use it's claw attack. That's it. If she had class levels then the attributes would be bad. Plus I'm keeping consistent with her write up from the sourcebook, and even giving her the Dex bonus at lvl 2.

Past level 5 she will start taking class levels, at which point her SLAs and improved DR will be scaled off those right?

Regarding HD, BAB and saves, Outsiders are d8, get full bab and 3 good saves. Maybe progress like that, or is it too much? Note she still doesn't have weapon proficiensies or spells or anything of that nature.

[sblock=Unholy Scion progression]*Level 1:* Claw Attack, Familial Charm, Instant Knowledge, Int +6, Wis +2, Cha +4, DR 1/good and magic, Resistances (acid, cold, electricity, fire) 1

*Level 2:* Charm Person 3/day, Dex +2, Fast Healing 1, DR 2/good and magic, 
Resistances (acid, cold, electricity, fire) 2

*Level 3:* Darkvision 60 ft., Cha to AC,  Fast Healing 2, DR 3/good and magic, Resistances (acid, cold,  electricity, fire) 3

*Level 4:* Unholy Strike, Desecrate 1/day, Fast Healing 3, DR 4/good and magic, Resistances (acid, cold,  electricity, fire) 4

*Level 5:* Immunity to poison and mind-affecting spells and abilities, Spell resistance (HD + 10 (maximum 35)), Enervation 1/day, protection from good 3/day, Fast Healing 4, DR 5/good and magic, Resistances (acid, cold,  electricity, fire) 5[/sblock]


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## Voda Vosa (Jul 21, 2010)

crazy_monkey1956 said:


> The _Awaken Construct_ spell in the Spell Compendium grants a construct a humanoid level of intellect, self-awarenes, and indentity.
> 
> You could simply use the mechanics of the spell and instead of the construct becoming self-aware something goes wrong and the caster of the spell accidentally transfers his own consciousness into the construct.
> 
> ...




So you are saying I take the flesh golem from savage species but without the initial ability modifier? That'll be all?


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## crazy_monkey1956 (Jul 21, 2010)

That's what I would do if I were the DM.  

Although I'd use my revised version of the progression.


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## Voda Vosa (Jul 21, 2010)

Well you have my email, you could perhaps send it to me? I'll check if it makes my character more powerf... emh suitable for this game, that's what I meant. =)


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## crazy_monkey1956 (Jul 21, 2010)

PM me your e-mail again, please?  I don't have it on file.


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## renau1g (Jul 21, 2010)

HolyMan said:


> Even the house rule if a baby troll picks up a sword and starts using it over its little claws then at the next character lvl I would allow them to take a level in fighter.
> 
> HM




Hmmm I was thinking I may not want to play the troll as I felt it was too close to the Flesh Golum after reading the new progressions, but if I could pick up a level of fighter (or barbarian or whatever) at level 2, that may left me move to a bit different that CM.

Besides, I've always loved this image


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## crazy_monkey1956 (Jul 21, 2010)

If Voda Vosa goes with his wizard's mind trapped in a flesh golem's body concept then I'll probably go with something else.

Maybe a male Succubus to give the group a face character.


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## Voda Vosa (Jul 21, 2010)

I was thinking on stone of clay golem, but whatever =)


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## Voda Vosa (Jul 21, 2010)

We should make some desicions on the following:

-Starting level: I suggest above level 3. Fun stuff starts from there =)

-Points buy: 32? or you want to play puffy 36 point guys? Or perhaps lousy villains of 28?

-Allowed material: I think it should be limited to what Holyman has and the additional rules he wishes to implement. 

-Starting gear: Standard for the level or provided by our Holy dm?

-Backgrounds: Shared? It would be nice to make a huge background together. But perhaps its more practical to have each build its own. Are we a group of settled bad guys? Are we planning a strike on a town protected by pathetic adventurers?

Leave you with this =)


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## crazy_monkey1956 (Jul 21, 2010)

My preferences...

Starting Level: 1
Ability Scores: 32 Point Buy
Backgrounds: I'm all for shared background.  Maybe we're all the former experiments and/or pets of a now dead or otherwise missing wizard.


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## renau1g (Jul 21, 2010)

I agree with crazy monkey.


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## GandalfMithrandir (Jul 21, 2010)

I agree... maybe my human fighter was a former ally of the wizard, his tower is burned down and there we all are.


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## HolyMan (Jul 22, 2010)

Two things to help us along in character development.

1) Put your charaters here so they aren't scattered about this thread please:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/rogues-gallery/284482-denizens-watched-dark-powers.html

2)Starting wealth: 900gp each

This money will represent what you found as you scoured through the remains of your masters former stronghold. And will net you some nicer things than what you might find if you go raiding a villiage full of commoners. So don't expect alot your first lvl 

HM


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## renau1g (Jul 22, 2010)

Will there be goats though?


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## HolyMan (Jul 22, 2010)

Oh goats a plenty   And cool picture btw. 

HM


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## Myth and Legend (Jul 22, 2010)

Level 1 because otherwise we will lose Monkey. BTW when will the game start? I'm going to the beach on Friday, and will be mostly away for 5-6 days.

HM and CM: any suggestions or rulings on the progression i posted? I'd be OK if we spread out the ability bonuses if youd deem them too much for lvl 1 (even though I'd just use them to RP her being unnaturally smart and cunning, she won't have INT or WIS based casting).

Also let me know how you would like to handle her BAB, HD and saves progression.


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## GandalfMithrandir (Jul 22, 2010)

The game can start whenever for me, I'm actually starting to think I will be less busy in the school year I have so much going on. HOWEVER I can work on my character during the black of night when I am supposed to be sleeping (looks left and right) but If I get one fewer hours of sleep in the night that's not going to make a difference at all for me, given my erratic sleep scheduling anyway. 

Long Story Short: Start when you want.


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## Voda Vosa (Jul 22, 2010)

Good so to resume a bit:

Starting level: 1
Starting gold: 900 gp
Starting stats: 32 pb (Standard no?)
Background: Puppets of a vanished mad wizard


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## crazy_monkey1956 (Jul 22, 2010)

Myth, regarding your template progression, templates do not provide BAB, HD, base saves, skill points, etc, unless specifically spelled out in the template.

Thus, any "levels" in a template class are what I call "empty levels" in that they provide only special abilties and no other benefits of gaining a level, adding to your ECL but that's it.

Generally speaking, that is the price one pays for having a high level adjustment.    If Holy Man wants to fill in those empty levels with something that is his perogative.


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## HolyMan (Jul 22, 2010)

I will look into it for you ML but work starts in an hour *sigh* 

crazy_monkey1956 if you could send me and example of a template monster to use as a guide I think we could work something out.

thanks in advance

HM


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## Myth and Legend (Jul 22, 2010)

It doesn't make sense to have 0 to all saves, 0 BAB and NO hitpoints  The price for a high LA template is fine, especially if it can be bought off or we start above lvl 1. How am I supposed to survive past lvl 5 with the HP of a lvl 1 commoner child? A level 5 Wizard can cast 3rd level spells and already has (on average) around 30 HP.

Also, this template does grant skills:

*Skills:* An unholy scion gains skill points as an outsider and has  skill points equal to (8 + Int modifi er) × (HD + 3). Do not include  Hit Dice from class levels in this calculation—a scion gains outsider  skill points only for its racial Hit Dice, and gains the normal amount  of skill points for its class levels. Treat skills from the base  creature’s list as class skills and other skills as cross-class.

I suggest we make the first 5 levels of this a creature progressoin and the rest leave as a template. if she gains skills as an outsider for her racial HD and not class lvls, it makes sense to get Outsider HD, Bab and saves. After lvl 5 (if we even get there, it took 1 year for Lora to get from lvl 1 to lvl 4) I'll start taking class levels.


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## crazy_monkey1956 (Jul 22, 2010)

Right, templates don't provide BAB or hit points, etc.  Generally speaking, they can't be taken as your first class level, you have to take a "normal" class level at 1st level.  The best way to take on a high LA template class is to intersperse the levels between regular class levels.  In other words, take a level of Rogue, then a level of Unholy Scion, then another level of rogue, then another level of Unholy Scion, etc (using Rogue only as an example, it'll work with whatever class you like).


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## Voda Vosa (Jul 22, 2010)

Anyway we are starting at level 1, we could reach a consensus later on.


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## Myth and Legend (Jul 22, 2010)

CM that would be a great way of doing it if it was say, the Saint template. However, Unholy Scion pretty much starts with these abiliteis since birth, the only scaling coming for SLAs later with HD advancment. I won't have an actual Unholy Scion character until Clvl 10, and sorry but I'm yet to see a PbP game advance 10 character levels.


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## renau1g (Jul 22, 2010)

We're at around 8 in L4W with our highest PC, but yeah, 10 is not usually a good number to expect.


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## HolyMan (Jul 23, 2010)

Then you may have to choose something else ML remember this is a consensus from everyone and since so far it is looking like starting at lvl 1 is ok with most of the players that will be where we start.

And if your template can gain it's abilities by even distrbution of class lvls and template lvls then that is the way it should be. Even for everyone.

Now your saying the description of the template says it is normal for a Unholy Scion to have these abilities at birth but I say this is D&D and we throw that kind of stuff out the window all the time.

Could be a bunch of reasons your character didn't get this power yet or that power till much later than normal. And that should be what we should focus on.


HM


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## renau1g (Jul 23, 2010)

Maybe the evil wizard experimented on you and somehow blocked/stole your powers ala Baldur's Gate II? It will take you much time to unlock them, or at least situations of sufficient duress to break his hold... something like that


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## renau1g (Jul 23, 2010)

Just tossing it out there, but what if instead of level 1, it was level 2. That way those with progressions could grab 1 level of their progression & 1 of a class, adding a bit more flexibility to things.


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## Voda Vosa (Jul 23, 2010)

It seems logical to me


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## GandalfMithrandir (Jul 26, 2010)

I agree


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## renau1g (Jul 26, 2010)

Good so to summarize a bit:

Starting level: 2
Starting gold: 900 gp
Starting stats: 32 pb (Standard no?)
Background: Puppets of a vanished mad wizard

(borrowed from VV)

Oh, is the gold value correct for 2nd level? I don't have my books with me and that's not OGL right?


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## HolyMan (Aug 4, 2010)

It got slow again and not just because the motherboard crashed.

HM


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## Myth and Legend (Aug 4, 2010)

Well I'm back and waiting on definite rules for char generation


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## Scratched_back (Aug 4, 2010)

I've been slightly pre-occupied by work, but I'm back in the mindset now and looking forward to the thought of this.

Does anybody have any templates for giants? I fancied playing a Frost Giant, probably just a fighter of one sort of another I think, but I don't have the relevant info.

If it turns out to be too much of a pain, I may just play an evil half-Orc mook, make it easy on myself!


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## HolyMan (Aug 4, 2010)

Starting level: 2
Starting gold: 900 gp  2,700gp
Starting stats: 32 point buy
Background: Puppets of a vanished mad wizard


I think books are whatever you wish and of course with me you could customize your class a bit. Although if you use crazy_monkey1956's creature advancements it will have to be as is. But core classes can be twik as normal.

EDIT: As I was ediing the RG I figured to raise the starting gp as you may find a little magic or masterwork items.


HM


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## Myth and Legend (Aug 4, 2010)

HM are you sure you will allow all 3.5 books?


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## HolyMan (Aug 4, 2010)

Don't see why not, no one has said anything different and everyone wants to be a monster of sorts.

HM


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## Myth and Legend (Aug 12, 2010)

Ok I can roll my character now but will this game be happening?


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## HolyMan (Aug 12, 2010)

Probably not as noone seems interested anymore.

HM


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## GandalfMithrandir (Aug 12, 2010)

I am interested, just busy at the moment.

as in interested enough to play with just two people, or solo for that matter, but it might not be fun for you as the DM that way.


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## HolyMan (Aug 24, 2010)

Sorry guys going to postpone this as it seems the interest has dropped. Will bring it back around once it's slow on EnWorld again.

HM


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