# Barbarian Playtest Experiences



## Ander00 (Oct 9, 2008)

The other day I got the chance to try out a barbarian for the first time. It was a short session, with only three combat encounters, but I thought I'd get the ball rolling here and have a thread in which we can share our experiences and observations.

I like making characters who go against the norm to some degree and I wanted to use the Warduke miniature, so my 7th level human barbarian wears scale armor, wields a bastard sword (to be replaced with a Waraxe at epic levels) and shield, and will become an Iron Vanguard later on.


At first glance, the class feels a bit more complicated than it needs to be. In the first battle I forgot to use _swift charge_ after a killing blow, but I'd say it'll all come naturally pretty quick (while I still mix up Combat Superiority and Combat Challenge in my mind). I did not get to use the controversial _rage strike_, as in those first three encounters I did not rage once. I may get some use out of it at higher levels, what with a Divine Oracle in the party, but I don't see barbarians using this option very often.
The *at-will powers* are rather strong, especially when considered in a vacuum. Other classes may get jealous when you can shift 2 squares before the attack, through an enemy, and then push him in addition to dealing damage. On the other hand, that versatility is what I would've wanted out of at-will powers in general. Those were, after all, being advertised as always giving your character something interesting to do (something they may fail at, depending on the class and the specific powers chosen).
*The armor issue*. Personally, I like my barbarians in proper armor, and seeing how dexterity and intelligence otherwise tend to have a low priority, I don't see a mechanical reason to limit barbarians to light armor either. Sure, they're relatively tough, but not tough enough to be where flavor and some powers suggest they should be, unless they take measures to increase their armor class beyond absolutely worthless.
*Defenses, continued*. With a focus on strength and constitution, and the class bonus going to your Fortitude defense, other defenses are going to suffer. My barbarian is a human, uses a shield, and I opted to spend some points on dexterity and wisdom, so the problem is less pronounced for him than it might be for others, but his Reflex and Will defense will still fall behind the curve at later levels. Thaneborn barbarians will be better off in this regard, as will Pit Fighters, Heavy Blade Masters, etc..
I like playing a striker without a 1/round tacked-on damage mechanic. I am not convinced it's as problematic for multiclassing as some people claim, but I would've liked the article to include a multiclass feat so we can also playtest that.
My barbarian has spent 4 of 5 feats on increasing his survivability (he's not the only striker in the party, or I would've gone with a more aggresive build), and like most of the other characters has gone through half of his healing surges for this adventuring day. He doesn't deal as much damage as the rogue he's replacing, or as much as a typical barbarian will, but he's holding his own and, so far, he's fun to play.


cheers


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## Mathew_Freeman (Oct 9, 2008)

That's an excellent write-up, thanks. Have an experience point. 

Also thanks for starting this thread - I've got a player starting a barbarian in KotS on Monday, so I'll give some feedback when they put them into battle.


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## Bleoberis De Ganis (Oct 9, 2008)

I like Barbarians in hide and leather armour, perhaps with some piece plate, but with very high HP to soak up damage. I'm just not sure their HP match up to what I would expect. I suppose that is the problem with ROLE(Striker) overtaking character class concept.


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## Mengu (Oct 10, 2008)

I've run a few playtest encounters for a dragonborn barbarian at 1st level and at 6th level.

I gave him chainmail (Eladrin Chain at 6th level) because there is no reason not to. Weapon of choice was a Maul because I wanted to stick with PHB weapons, but Full Blade is probably the best weapon for the barbarian since they don't seem to have as good a hit chance as the rogue or ranger.

At 6th level, Powerful Charge and Dragonborn Frenzy were kind of no brainer feats. I debated between weapon focus and toughness, went with weapon focus to enforce the striker side of the character, should have gone with toughness in hind sight.

My initial impression is that the Barbarian charges in first dishes out some good damage, and goes down fast. The semi-defender properties of the Barbarian were obvious due to the fire he tends to draw in early combat. But his durability is not as great as it looks on paper. He had the worst AC, Reflex and Will defenses in the party. The Warlord and Paladin were constantly having to heal him because of it. Due to powers like Great Cleave and Blade Sweep, he likes to be in the thick of things, but can't really take the heat, especially if facing enemies that target reflex.

Also when he is surrounded, taking something down doesn't trigger Swift charge in a very useful manner, since all the opponents are around him already. I think he should be allowed to make a basic attack with it, if he can't charge.

Allowing the Barbarian to use his Con (or Cha) bonus to AC instead of Dex or Int, would go a long way for improving his survivability. I would also change the class bonus to defenses from a +2 Fort, to +1 Fort, +1 Refl.

When he rages, his survivability increases quite a bit, but that's a limited resource. I would much prefer to see raging tied to spending an action point rather than a daily power. There is no reason the barbarian shouldn't be raging every other encounter.

I like Rampage, lets him really shine when he gets a crit. However, it's perhaps more appropriate as a feat.

Inexorable Shift turned out to be an incredible power in one of the encounters, when the barbarian dove into a mix of minions and brutes gaining 6d10+6 temporary hitpoints, eventhough those hitpoints did not last long, that was the one encounter where the Barbarian didn't need as much healing.

I've also noticed the barbarian shines more in encounters where there are numerous minions and weaker creatures, compared to encounters where there are few tougher opponents (reminiscent of the warlock in this aspect).

I like the design of the barbarian, but I feel it needs some tweaks to make it more fun for the player in a wider set of situations, while keeping it balanced. I think it will be very difficult to keep it balanced with the rogue and two-weapon ranger because of all the defender benefits the barbarian gets. I'm rather glad their bonus damage doesn't work like sneak attack or hunter's quarry. The DPR of a barbarian should hopefully fall somewhere between that of a greatweapon fighter and a rogue.

Also because their basic attacks are so powerful, Barbarians (much like greatweapon fighters) pair up well with Warlords.


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## That One Guy (Oct 10, 2008)

Thank you for the info. It is greatly appreciated.


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## Ander00 (Oct 10, 2008)

Excellent. Two quick notes about _Inexorable Shift_: I am fairly sure it's supposed to be read as "1d10 + (1 x number of enemies within 2 squares)", so 1d10 + 6 in this case. Also, there already is a power with that name in the PHB (the Iron Vanguard's utility power).

More on the armor issue: my barbarian (after spending 3 feats on proficiencies) has the second-highest AC in the party. Thanks to his Bloodiron armor, when he hits an opponent with an attack, he has the same AC against that particular enemy as the paladin. Had he been using a two-handed weapon and hide armor instead, his AC would be worse than that of the wizard (except without the Immediate Interrupts to increase it), and there'd be a distinct possibility his career would be over already.

While most barbarians may not go to such lengths to increase their AC, I can't see many who won't at least pick up chainmail proficiency. Personally, I'd just give that to the class (and leave hide armor for the odd elf/heavy blade master/multiclass wizard), rather than introduce another class feature to serve as a fix of sorts.


cheers


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## Stalker0 (Oct 10, 2008)

Mengu said:


> Inexorable Shift turned out to be an incredible power in one of the encounters, when the barbarian dove into a mix of minions and brutes gaining 6d10+6 temporary hitpoints, eventhough those hitpoints did not last long, that was the one encounter where the Barbarian didn't need as much healing.




I think you might be reading this power wrong. I think it is 1d10....+1 per enemy adjacent. Otherwise, the amount of temp hp you are getting is vastily more than other other power of that level grants, which I don't think is the intent.


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## BarkingDeathSquirrel (Oct 10, 2008)

Mengu said:


> Inexorable Shift turned out to be an incredible power in one of the encounters, when the barbarian dove into a mix of minions and brutes gaining *6d10+6* temporary hitpoints, eventhough those hitpoints did not last long, that was the one encounter where the Barbarian didn't need as much healing.




Wha...?  
I have doubts that's what the power means by "1d10 + 1 for each enemy within 2 squares of you". Because, you know... that makes Great Cleave do 6[W]+6xStr+6 damage on each hit if you have 6 enemies adjacent to you when you use it... 

_Edit: Ninja'd, apparently..._


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## Mengu (Oct 10, 2008)

I guess you guys are right. I read the power like 3 times, before deciding on Xd10+X, but 1d10+X is probably the intent. It's just not worded very well. It should be worded more like:


*Effect:* You shift a number of squares equal to your Constitution modifier. You then gain 1d10 temporary hit points. For each enemy within 2 squares of you, gain 1 additional temporary hitpoint.

or

*Effect:* You shift a number of squares equal to your Constitution modifier. You then gain 1d10 temporary hit points + 1 temporary hitpoint for each enemy within 2 squares of you.


And as Ander00 pointed out, it does need a different name so as not to be confused with the Iron Vanguard Utility Power.


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## Yavathol (Oct 11, 2008)

*Another Playtest report*

I've just come back from an 8th level game.   One of the players had been playing a Warlord but wasn't enjoying it, so the GM surprised her with an alternate build, same character but re-written as a Barbarian.

(As a side note, the group now consists of a paladin, a cleric and one of each of the striker classes! - we like kicking out damage!)  I play a melee ranger, and to be honest, I was a little miffed to have some serious competition in the damage dealing stakes!  I don't think the barbarian is overpowered, but going nova and converting her 5th level daily with a Maul to a 8d6+8 damage....wow!!  None of my powers could touch that!

The extra basic attack on a melee and extra charge when dropping an enemy are also significant boosts.

Finally, I should mention the durability aspect...At 8th level, wearing chainmail and having toughness, she had 80hp (dwarf with 18 con) and an AC of 22.  That was way more hp than the paladin, never mind the ranger (who also has toughness).  She did go down a couple of times, but that's because she charged off on her own, instead of sticking with the group.  The extra 3 temporary hit points when each minion went down certainly helped a bit, and at 9th level her rage will give her DR 8/-....

I'm not saying its overpowered because I'm jealous  but I want to play one now, which may be a better indication that it is very powerful.  In fairness to the ranger though, he has a better Will, more manueverability and I just love my immediate interrupt powers when I get to kill my foe before he can hit me, or then gets -6 to hit if he survives

I think on average, the ranger will do more damage, since he rolls twice as many attacks, while the barbarian is more variable - but if she does roll a critical, look out!  The lack of missile capability is also significant, where the ranger can just drop his two bastard swords and pull out his bow, and still use most of his funky powers.  The barbarian is very focused.

Comparing to the other two strikers, the rogue is also quite flexible and maneuverable, but sometimes has a hard time getting combat advantage without exposing herself, while the warlock (infernal) is ok, but doesn't seem to kick out quite as much damage.  To be honest, I'm not sure exchanging damage for conditions is really worth it in 4e.  You can prone, slide, daze or whatever a monster as much as you like, but that won't finish the fight.  The only way to do that is to knock down its hit points, so personally, unless you are very tactically proficient I don't think warlock is that sound.  Just my two cents...


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## StormHarbinger (Oct 13, 2008)

*Barb Experience*

DMing for my monthly group Sunday night and one of the players couldn't make it. Wouldn't have been a problem except his Warlord (the party's only tank) bit the dust the previous game session (dang ghouls and zombies in Rivenroar!).

He's going to try out a swordmage, but since he wasn't around I rolled up Ogg the Barbarian, level 3 and full of piss and vinegar. Executioner's Axe and Hide Armor, gave him 14's in everything since he's a one-shot. Certainly not optimized.

He kicked some major ass. While he could not suffer a great many attacks (and did drop once), he dealt a ton of damage. The Brutal 2 aspect of Executioner's Axe certainly helped a couple of times with that. But since we're here to discuss the barbarian powers, here goes:

Like one of the posters above, I completely forgot about Rageblood Vigor and Swift Charge. Nor, obviously, was I able to use Rage Strike at 3rd level. Howling Strike is VERY powerful as an at-will, especially since Ugg (my player's changed his name; later he became Gog and Grog) charged just about everything he saw. 12.5 average damage is nothing to sneeze at, for sure.

Recuperating Strike he used a couple of times, but with his generic Con of 14, was less useful. I'm very interested to see the effect of a Con build with this ability, as it basically results in DR 4.

Avalanche Strike was also very interesting. In keeping with the theme of giving up defense for offense, you get a 3W Encounter power which gives any attacker against you +4 to-hit next round. I liked it for the 3W, which gets crazy with a weapon doing 1d12. And he wasn't made to pay this time, but with multiple enemies around you you'd probably be wishing for Great Cleave.

As his Daily Rage, Ugg took Bloodhunt Rage, which when he used it he critted on it, leading to 52 damage and one dead Boneshard Skeleton. IN-tense.

Overall, I'm very excited for Barbarian. I don't want to get into the Rage Strike discussion here, but I do like the way they've handled Rage in 4E. Ugg will continue to fill in for missing party members, and we'll see what happens as WOTC responds to playtest reports. One thing that is clear (and that has been belabored to death) is that they need editors. 'Nuf said.


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## beeflv30 (Oct 14, 2008)

My initial impression is that the Barbarian charges in first dishes out some good damage said:
			
		

> I would agree with this. My friend was playing a level 2 dragonborn barbarian, and they do take a lot of the damage dished out in combat.
> I was a cleric and had to use Healing Word often ,but with his amount of healing surges the party managed to get through a decent amount of combats before resting. Though if you want some range with a dragonborn barbarian grab the hurl breath feat in the ecology of the dragonborn article in Dragon #365.


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## alfredbester (Oct 14, 2008)

Funny.  One of my players tore up their warlord in favor of barbarian also.

The current thing I'm pondering about with the barbarian is rage + veteran's armor.  Rage feels like something "more" than just a daily attack, so it makes the clear choice of armor for any barb veteran's armor in my opinion.  Or am I wrong?  Veteran's armor lets you convert an action point into a recharged daily once per day as a free action.  An extra rage is much more potent than an extra Lead the Attack or whatever.

Thoughts?

Otherwise it seems like the barb's toughness will drastically depend on the type of encounter.  If there is a pile of minions the barbarian can get themselves in the center of, the barb will take them out and gain a zillion temporary hp.


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## Ander00 (Oct 14, 2008)

I would've liked to have a more thrilling report after the second session with the barbarian, but here goes:

I made the mistake of bringing my own dice again. So while the mage did her thing, and the player of the ranger (with a vicious bow) and paladin once again rolled crits left, right and center, I rolled a crapload of 2s (both on d20s and on d10s) and not much else (not a single crit either). Add to that a few tactical blunders, and the barbarian spending a good part of the first encounter inside a shambling mound, and saying that he didn't accomplish much of anything would be a bit of an understatement.
Unless you count going down first as one. And staying down, because he was also the first one out of healing surges (despite receiving that precious lay on hands earlier).

One rage effect ended up doing very little, while the other did nothing at all (the initial daze was a little help, at least). He scored one killing blow, but at the time the monsters were so far apart, he could not even use his _swift charge_ power.

Overall, an exercise in frustration, though few characters would've shone under the circumstances.


cheers


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## Cadfan (Oct 14, 2008)

Anyone play a barbarian past level 9?  They ramp up in power pretty quick as they learn more rages per day.


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## Mengu (Oct 14, 2008)

Cadfan said:


> Anyone play a barbarian past level 9? They ramp up in power pretty quick as they learn more rages per day.




Did an 11th level test. The he does indeed ramp up in power because he can frenzy in at least 3 encounters during the day. That's typically half the encounters in an adventuring day. The raging only became fun at this level. It was too infrequent earlier. This is part of why I would like to see the raging mechanic tied to action points (or milestones somehow), so the barbarian can rage every other encounter, regardless of level.

I also have to say Stone Bear Rage is a bit overpowered. During the particular encounter where the Barbarian used that evocation, he was right down untouchable. All the ongoing damage, aura damage, damage from minions bounced right off the resistance (or did nickel and dime damage for a more potent aura). Add some temporary hit points into the mix, and even the decent skirmisher damage didn't put a dent in the barbarian's hit points. This one daily power prevented over 100 points of damage to the barbarian. That is more than any other 9th level daily power can do. The numerous ways he had (plus the ways the warlord had) of giving temporary hit points meant that the Barbarian hardly had to spend any resources other than the one daily power to survive what was a difficult encounter for everyone else (level+3).


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## Rechan (Oct 14, 2008)

Mengu said:


> I also have to say Stone Bear Rage is a bit overpowered. During the particular encounter where the Barbarian used that evocation, he was right down untouchable. All the ongoing damage, aura damage, damage from minions bounced right off the resistance (or did nickel and dime damage for a more potent aura). Add some temporary hit points into the mix, and even the decent skirmisher damage didn't put a dent in the barbarian's hit points. This one daily power prevented over 100 points of damage to the barbarian. That is more than any other 9th level daily power can do. The numerous ways he had (plus the ways the warlord had) of giving temporary hit points meant that the Barbarian hardly had to spend any resources other than the one daily power to survive what was a difficult encounter for everyone else (level+3).



Hope you're sending that observation to WotC's feedback email.


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## Mengu (Oct 15, 2008)

Rechan said:


> Hope you're sending that observation to WotC's feedback email.




Yup, already done.


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## Insight (Oct 15, 2008)

I find Raging Strike to be a waste of time as written, and completely unusable until 5th level.  Can anyone name a CLASS FEATURE that you can't use at 1st level?

I think you should be able to use Raging Strike any time, and then when you blow the Rage power to get the extra damage, you count as raging as if you had used the Rage power (you don't get the extra benefits, but it would affect other powers and possibly feats etc because you count as raging).


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## chitzk0i (Oct 15, 2008)

Insight said:


> I find Raging Strike to be a waste of time as written, and completely unusable until 5th level.  Can anyone name a CLASS FEATURE that you can't use at 1st level?
> 
> I think you should be able to use Raging Strike any time, and then when you blow the Rage power to get the extra damage, you count as raging as if you had used the Rage power (you don't get the extra benefits, but it would affect other powers and possibly feats etc because you count as raging).




But that would be pointless.  At first level, it would be strictly worse than activating the power.


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## SadisticFishing (Oct 15, 2008)

Insight said:


> I find Raging Strike to be a waste of time as written, and completely unusable until 5th level.  Can anyone name a CLASS FEATURE that you can't use at 1st level?
> 
> I think you should be able to use Raging Strike any time, and then when you blow the Rage power to get the extra damage, you count as raging as if you had used the Rage power (you don't get the extra benefits, but it would affect other powers and possibly feats etc because you count as raging).




The point of Rage Strike is spending more than one Daily power in one encounter, without wasting virtually all the benefits.

No other class has a class feature they can't use at level 1 because no other class can only use 1 daily per fight, as written.


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## Insight (Oct 15, 2008)

chitzk0i said:


> But that would be pointless.  At first level, it would be strictly worse than activating the power.




Using Raging Strike is always worse than activating the daily power, isn't it?  All you get with Raging Strike is extra damage, which means exactly nothing if you miss.  Spending the daily as normal gives you half damage on a miss as well as the effects of the rage.

What I don't understand is why Raging Strike is an at-will when it clearly isn't "at-will" since you can use it once a day at 5th level, twice a day at 9th level, etc.


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## Insight (Oct 15, 2008)

SadisticFishing said:


> The point of Rage Strike is spending more than one Daily power in one encounter, without wasting virtually all the benefits.
> 
> No other class has a class feature they can't use at level 1 because no other class can only use 1 daily per fight, as written.




OK, if I have a 5th level Fighter, for example, I can spend 2 or even 3 dailies (assuming I have a daily utility power) in an encounter if I want.  I don't see where Raging Strike gives you any kind of benefit there.

If you blow a daily Rage power using Raging Strike, you get NOTHING besides the extra damage as listed in Raging Strike.  You specifically DO waste all of the benefits of the Rage power that you use for Raging Strike.


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## Drakhar (Oct 15, 2008)

Rages Don't stack, so instead of losing the benefits of say, Swift Panther Rage to use Frost Wolf Rage, I can use Swift Panther Rage and then use Rage Strike to deal the same amount of damage, without losing my rage benefit or having to risk the basic melee attack. That's what Rage Strike does, allowing a Barbarian to 'nova' just like any other class while still keeping the benefits of the rage they want. Oh and Rage Strike is also half damage on a miss.

As for it being an at-will useable only a certain amount of times per day? I point you towards Lay on Hands.


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## ThirdWizard (Oct 15, 2008)

I've replaced my feylock in a weekly game with a barbarian. I just couldn't resist. It is a longtooth shifter barbarian/cleric 4, so not exactly the most basic choice. He's got chainmail and wields an executioner axe from AV. I also went with Howling Strike and Pressing Strike as my at-wills.

Here are some random thoughts based on my own experiences:

- I never hit bloodied. Now, I don't think we went up against any encounters that were far above our level, but he had 50 hp with a not-good-but-not-horrible 18 AC. I didn't get any temporary hit points either, because I never needed to use Primal Vitality. I also never got to use Longtooth Shifting.

Maybe next time I'll take more punishment, but for the first game, it wasn't too daunting in the death department. Of course, the cleric multiclass for Healing Word 1/day should help.
- I didn't rage until the 4th and final battle, and I never felt I was under performing without raging. With Howling Strike and Swift Charge, I was doing really good work, and it was nice having another melee character in the party.
- Avalance Strike is awesome. -4 AC is totally worth it. Okay, I probably won't be saying that after I get brutalitied for it, but in this one game, it was great. Last encounter, I critted with it, dealing massive damage, killing a ghost, got 3 temp hp, took a swing at another guy beside me, and charged another guy with Howling Strike. Beautiful.

Overall, I'm very happy with the class. I'm going to keep playing him as my regular PC in the game now.


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## Mathew_Freeman (Oct 15, 2008)

Had a second level Warforged Barbarian in a game on Monday night.

He ran forwards, fell in a pit and fought a Rat Swarm, climbed out and used Avalanche Strike to take out an opponent in a single hit. He also took a bunch of damage.

So - he's certainly not overwhelmingly good, but at the end of a fight he can certainly dish some serious damage.


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## ThirdWizard (Oct 17, 2008)

Last night the dice were hot. Two crits in the first combat (one with Howling Strike, another with Avalanche Strike), then another in the second (on Howling Strike). The ranger and paladin also critted the first combat, and we were apologizing to the DM for destroying his carefully planned encounter (while laughing maniacally of course).

I took tons of damage this time. Due to a paladin using Paladin's Judgement plus a raging Primal Vitality plus Beacon of Hope, I got better, though. I really don't think Recuperating Strike would have been worth it. The temp hp from Rageblood Vigor and Primal Vitality have been more than enough so far, even without ever having to use my once per day Healing Word from multiclassing. Of course, we have plenty of healing to go around in the party, but I was still not the most healed PC, so I'm not a drain on healing.

Swift Panther Rage is great! I'm glad I took it over Bloodhunt Rage. The +2 movement is good for those long charges (with chainmail my move is 5), but the shift two squares as a Move is the real winner here. It allows me to get to flanking very easily, which gives a +2 to hit. Mix it with Pressing Strike, and I can shift _four_ squares then attack for the same damage as Howling Strike.

Comparatively to the other PCs, I don't think I'm overpowered, even though I am very excited about this PC. I do more damage than anyone else, but it isn't too high above the others, and I have the lowest AC in the party (paladin, ranger, cleric, wizard) while being on the front line. The paladin has been good at keeping enemies on him so far. Without a defender, things would get much more dangerous, in which case I would recommend Recuperating Strike, and pray it can save you.


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## amysrevenge (Oct 17, 2008)

ThirdWizard said:


> I really don't think Recuperating Strike would have been worth it.




That's a useful thing to hear - I've been agonizing over which two At-Wills to take for the barbarian I'll be starting up in a couple of weeks.  

So far I've been tentatively been thinking of Howling and Recuperating, while looking longingly at the shift one.  I'll be playing a warforged, so there are even more temporary hit points to get without Recuperating, so I might not take that one after all...


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## DracoSuave (Oct 18, 2008)

Mengu said:


> I guess you guys are right. I read the power like 3 times, before deciding on Xd10+X, but 1d10+X is probably the intent. It's just not worded very well. It should be worded more like:
> 
> 
> *Effect:* You shift a number of squares equal to your Constitution modifier. You then gain 1d10 temporary hit points. For each enemy within 2 squares of you, gain 1 additional temporary hitpoint.
> ...




Powers that have multiple -dice- that are effected by variables actually -use- the template xd10 or x[W].

Look at thunderwave staff to see a good example.

Also, basic order of operations means that mathematically speaking, 1d10 + 1 per enemy actually parses out to 1d10 + 1(x) where x is the number of enemies.

Valiant Strike doesn't give you +(Strength mod + 1) to hit per enemy, for instance.


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## Mengu (Oct 18, 2008)

DracoSuave said:


> Powers that have multiple -dice- that are effected by variables actually -use- the template xd10 or x[W].
> 
> Look at thunderwave staff to see a good example.
> 
> ...




Yes, I see it now. I still would rather see it written out clearer now, rather than fight with confused people like me later. There are many existing powers which are spelled out as clear as the wordings I proposed.


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## ricardo440 (Oct 18, 2008)

Insight said:


> I find Raging Strike to be a waste of time as written, and completely unusable until 5th level.  Can anyone name a CLASS FEATURE that you can't use at 1st level?
> 
> I think you should be able to use Raging Strike any time, and then when you blow the Rage power to get the extra damage, you count as raging as if you had used the Rage power (you don't get the extra benefits, but it would affect other powers and possibly feats etc because you count as raging).




Veterans armour from the adventures vault would allow its use at 4th level.

Also who is to say there wont be other classes that can restore dailies. Possibly a power that allow you to spend an action point to restore a daily, or a class that allows you to trade in a power to restore an allies power...

The feature is jsut so you do't waste your multiple dailies if you ever wanted to blow them all in one fight. e.g. when you mean the end of game boss.


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## ricardo440 (Oct 18, 2008)

As for our experiences of the barb, well the warlord player got bored of his character (less than fun with a cleric and a paladin in the group too) and decided to play a barbarian.

I was pleased because our group needed a striker.

The barbarian fell over once which has radically changed the group dynamic. But he doesnt reallly know how to play the arbarian yet so we are still learning.

Nothing seems OTT (he is 5th level at the moment)


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## Sphyre (Oct 18, 2008)

Ander00 said:


> but his Reflex and Will defense will still fall behind the curve at later levels.




One of the mathematical things they've done is correct the "curve."

The difference between two different barbarians at first and 30th levels of the same race and exact same gear is the difference of their ability scores.  There is no cascading effect of different progressions that existed earlier because there's no "1/2, 3/4 and 1 bab per level" mechanic, where things can get more pronounced.

There is a curve at later levels (where monsters get +1 hit per level, while you only get +1/2 to defenses each level + stat increases + itemization) but it's not based on having a low score, or by virtue of being a barbarian.  There's not much, other than itemization you can do to make up for the built-in curve.


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## alfredbester (Oct 18, 2008)

ricardo440 said:


> Veterans armour from the adventures vault would allow its use at 4th level.




Why would you have to wait until 4th level?  Veteran's armor +1 is only a level 2 magic item.


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## Victim (Oct 18, 2008)

Sphyre said:


> One of the mathematical things they've done is correct the "curve."
> 
> The difference between two different barbarians at first and 30th levels of the same race and exact same gear is the difference of their ability scores.  There is no cascading effect of different progressions that existed earlier because there's no "1/2, 3/4 and 1 bab per level" mechanic, where things can get more pronounced.
> 
> There is a curve at later levels (where monsters get +1 hit per level, while you only get +1/2 to defenses each level + stat increases + itemization) but it's not based on having a low score, or by virtue of being a barbarian.  There's not much, other than itemization you can do to make up for the built-in curve.




Actually, there is.  Keeping up in terms of defenses requires allocating stats to defense increasing stats.  But only two stats can be increased at a time, so either one defense is falling sigficantly behind, or points are being spread around, so two defenses are falling behind somewhat.

And if the class is emphasizing two stats in the same defense grouping, then TWO defenses will lag because they aren't getting the major stat ups.  And since the only barbarian set up we have at the moment is STR/CON...


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## Cadfan (Oct 18, 2008)

I don't know that one defense is falling "significantly behind."  Your favored stats (those you put points into) will gain +8 over the course of your career, meaning that the defenses related to those stats will get +4.  Meanwhile, your unfavored stats will gain +2 over the course of your career, meaning that the defenses related to those stats will get +1.

So its a difference of +3 at level 28.  Enough to notice, but I wouldn't call it "falling significantly behind."


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## Ander00 (Oct 18, 2008)

Sure, they may already start with a difference of around 5 points between their good and bad defenses. That doesn't mean falling behind by another 3 (or 4, if you factor in demigod or eternal defender), while monster attacks generally get better relative to PC defenses, is not significant. Having any level-appropriate monster hit two of your defenses on anything but a natural 1 isn't particularly desirable.

That said, the rageblood barbarian is not the only character with that problem, but I wouldn't just shrug it off.


cheers


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## ricardo440 (Oct 18, 2008)

alfredbester said:


> Why would you have to wait until 4th level?  Veteran's armor +1 is only a level 2 magic item.




because rather bizzarely I typed 4th instead of 1st.

I really have no idea why
I meant at 1st.


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## Morrus (Oct 19, 2008)

We had someone play one last week.  A repeated refrain was: _"You do HOW MUCH damage?!?!?"_

Seemed pretty overpowered to me.


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## amysrevenge (Oct 19, 2008)

Morrus said:


> We had someone play one last week.  A repeated refrain was: _"You do HOW MUCH damage?!?!?"_
> 
> Seemed pretty overpowered to me.




I'm imagining something similar.  As long as there is a good Defender nearby (good build AND good player), that is.  I can imagine some horrible splats on the barbarian's end without a good team around him.


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## Rechan (Oct 19, 2008)

On the topic of defenses, are we also disregarding neck-slot items? You know, you're assumed to have all three primary items (weapon, armor, neck slot). 



Morrus said:


> We had someone play one last week.  A repeated refrain was: _"You do HOW MUCH damage?!?!?"_
> 
> Seemed pretty overpowered to me.



Funny. I have a similar experience with the ranger.


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## themilkman (Oct 19, 2008)

Rechan said:


> Funny. I have a similar experience with the ranger.




And I have a similar experience with the rogue.  Throwing a fistful of d6s feels good.

I've played a 1st level Barbarian in one playtest so far, and he played really well.  He dealt more damage than anyone else, but he was the party's only striker.   He wasn't knocking people over in one hit, but with some good rolls, he could bloody people.  His damage seemed on par with a brutal scoundrel rogue.  Maybe a little less, but he wasn't so reliant on positioning for sneak attack bonus damage to hit the high numbers.  In fact, he played a lot like a melee rogue, with pressing strike serving as a MUCH better deft strike.  (This is to say that I played him like a melee rogue, and he seemed to play well that way.)  If flanking is possible, pressing strike will give it to you every single round, which also helps whichever melee fellow you're working with. 

Like a melee rogue, you also need to look after your health.  The DM started throwing things at him pretty quickly, because he makes a tempting target in the thick of it.  He got bloodied in two out of three encounters I played him in.  Between the party's pally and the cleric, though, he was never in any real danger of going down.  Also, I probably could have played him a little more conservatively, or started him with some heavier armor in my build.  One time, in particular, he went from more than full to bloodied in one round due to a somewhat reckless use of Avalanche Strike.  He stayed on his feet, though.

Balance seems good at first level, but I'm curious to see how some of the higher level rages play out (e.g., Thunder Hawk, Stone Bear).


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## Ander00 (Oct 19, 2008)

Rechan said:


> On the topic of defenses, are we also disregarding neck-slot items? You know, you're assumed to have all three primary items (weapon, armor, neck slot).



That is of course right, so monsters from level 25 onward will not necessarily hit you on a 2. You're still looking at two bad defenses though (which could be behind by something like 8-10 points). I think we can agree on that being worse than having only one bad defense, without further theorizing about high-level play (I'd be glad to hear about actual high-level play experiences though).


cheers


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## Mengu (Oct 19, 2008)

Morrus said:


> We had someone play one last week. A repeated refrain was: _"You do HOW MUCH damage?!?!?"_
> 
> Seemed pretty overpowered to me.




This is why I've been testing it side by side with a Rogue. I don't think the Barbarian is quite outshining the rogue in the damage department, the rogue is usually better, until the Barbarian uses a daily, at which point the barbarian can become better if he used something like Frost Wolf Rage or Flameheart Rage. And when the two of them flank an opponent, they definitely make quick work of it. But getting the rogue in position to strike is still the party's primary priority.

My test group includes Paladin, Warlord, Wizard, Rogue, and Barbarian. The party dynamics are rather interesting. The Paladin and Warlord strive to keep the Barbarian alive through marking and healing, while at the same time providing the Rogue with combat advantage through a flank, daze, knock down, etc. The Wizard does his own thing, softening targets, sometimes giving the Rogue combat advantage through effects, and sometimes helping defend the Barbarian by Illusory Ambushing whatever is attacking the Barbarian. It feels like the non-striker's job is to assist the strikers.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Oct 20, 2008)

themilkman said:


> And I have a similar experience with the rogue.  Throwing a fistful of d6s feels good.




Yah.  Rolling 2d10 + 2d8 + 13 on my bugbear rogue's Torturous Strike means a lot of damage flows out if the dice are friendly.

Brad


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## pskought (Oct 21, 2008)

Morrus said:


> We had someone play one last week. A repeated refrain was: _"You do HOW MUCH damage?!?!?"_






Rechan said:


> Funny. I have a similar experience with the ranger.






themilkman said:


> And I have a similar experience with the rogue.




We've had a similar experience with the Warlock.  Gosh, it's almost as if these classes were designed to do more damage than the others.  Hunh.

I'm glad to hear the barbarian is more or less working.  I have to say, I thought the rage mechanic was a little confusing upon first read.  does it play smoothly?


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## themilkman (Oct 21, 2008)

pskought said:


> I have to say, I thought the rage mechanic was a little confusing upon first read. does it play smoothly?




It played pretty smoothly for me.  A lot like any Stance power from another class.  The only tricky parts are remembering that it modifies your at-wills.  (Howling Strike + Swift Charge is particularly awesome, when raging, to get to the squishy backline baddies, and the extra damage to Pressing Strike is nice too.)  I'm not high enough level to use any Rage Strikes, yet, but I'm not particularly excited about that anyway.  Our DM likes to throw many encounters at us each adventuring day, so I don't see myself blowing multiple dailies in any single encounter.


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## Obryn (Oct 21, 2008)

Morrus said:


> We had someone play one last week.  A repeated refrain was: _"You do HOW MUCH damage?!?!?"_
> 
> Seemed pretty overpowered to me.



My party's rogue just got her Charisma up to 16 and a +2 dagger.  She's now doing, on a Sly Flourish sneak attack, 1d4+9+2d8.  We're hearing stuff like that a lot. 

Is the Barbarian more excessive?

-O


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## Staffan (Oct 21, 2008)

Obryn said:


> My party's rogue just got her Charisma up to 16 and a +2 dagger.  She's now doing, on a Sly Flourish sneak attack, 1d4+9+2d8.  We're hearing stuff like that a lot.
> 
> Is the Barbarian more excessive?



The Barbarian has an at-will attack that does W+Str+1d6 at low levels (W+Str+2d6 at paragon, 2W+Str+3d6 at epic). That still seems like a little lower than what you're getting, but on the other hand the barbarian can use it without having to go through hoops to get flanking or stuff like that (admittedly, it's not *that* hard for the rogue to get combat advantage, but I'd estimate it at about 75%)

The barbarian would seem to get more oomph out of encounter and daily powers than the rogue though. Both the rogue's and the barbarian's encounter powers tend to do 2W damage, but the barbarian gets more out of those on account of having a bigger W. Then again, the rogue gets to add his sneak attack to his encounter powers, which the barbarian doesn't.

A third issue is that the rogue benefits from feats like Backstabber and Nimble Blade, but we don't know if what similar feats exist to support the barbarian. It's a pretty good bet there are some, but the playtest article only has about 2 powers per level and one paragon path.


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## Cadfan (Oct 21, 2008)

Also remember that the rogue gets less damage out of encounter and daily powers than you might expect, since his [w] value is 1d4 or so.  The barbarian, by contrast, gains a fair bit more as the amount of [w]s in a power increases.

That's the balance I've noticed in our games.  The rogue's at wills are amazing, but the ranger's encounter and daily powers are much better in terms of damage dealt.  The barbarian should be the same, because large, two handed weapons have better [w] values.


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## Ander00 (Oct 22, 2008)

The ranger in our group was exchanged for a one-handed fighter, so I have in turn switched to a more aggressive build - warforged, to become a juggernaut later. Unfortunately, yesterday's session was canceled, so I did not get to try him out.


cheers


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## Rechan (Oct 22, 2008)

Cadfan said:


> Also remember that the rogue gets less damage out of encounter and daily powers than you might expect, since his [w] value is 1d4 or so.



? 

Katar: d6 (high crit)
Shuriken in rogue's hands: d6
Short sword: d6
Kukri: d6 (brutal 1)
Sling: 1d6
Rapier: d8
Double sword: d8

Also (and correct me if I'm wrong), rogues sneak attack says crossbows, not hand crossbows. While they may be proficient with hand crossbows, getting proficient with a superior crossbow isn't out of bounds. 

Not to mention that in Martial Power, the Ruthless Ruffian can sneak attack with Maces and (I think) hammers.


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## Stalker0 (Oct 22, 2008)

Staffan said:


> The Barbarian has an at-will attack that does W+Str+1d6 at low levels (W+Str+2d6 at paragon, 2W+Str+3d6 at epic). That still seems like a little lower than what you're getting, but on the other hand the barbarian can use it without having to go through hoops to get flanking or stuff like that




Also consider that the rogue will often have a better attack bonus. Assuming the same primary stats, Barb will likely use a maul to make use out of the extra W's. That gives a dagger rogue a +2 bonus to attack rolls, which is a solid advantage.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Oct 22, 2008)

Rechan said:


> ?
> 
> Katar: d6 (high crit)
> Shuriken in rogue's hands: d6
> ...



Dagger: 1d4

In Rogues hands it gets +1 to attack, which indirectly increases damage, and certainly increases how often your attacks have their special abilities.  When your attack is either 1d6+2d8+4+4 (With a Dex 18, Cha 18 Rogue with backstabber using Sly Flourish) or 1d4+2d8+4+4 with a plus 1 to hit, the damage bonus is actually higher from the extra to hit than it is from a bigger weapon.  That's why most rogues I've seen use daggers.  It just means that 2w or 3w doesn't matter much for them.

As for the original topic, we've only had 2 sessions with our Barbarian but so far he seems a little weak.  Which is what I've seen a lot of threads on the WOTC boards say.  Unless you spend the feat for heavy armor, their AC is so low that he gets hit every time someone attacks him.  The player of our Barbarian has insisted on sticking to Light Armor, as he feels that's the way the class is meant to be played and he feels its only right to playtest it the way it was designed to see if it works.

So far, one interesting thing I've noticed is that playing this way means that he has to do a lot of thinking.  He has to get the enemies set up in the right way to take advantage of his free charge, he has to creatively use his at wills to keep the temporary hitpoints coming at the right times to save himself.  It ends up being kind of weird that the Barbarian is doing the most strategic thinking in the party.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Oct 22, 2008)

Majoru Oakheart said:


> So far, one interesting thing I've noticed is that playing this way means that he has to do a lot of thinking.  He has to get the enemies set up in the right way to take advantage of his free charge, he has to creatively use his at wills to keep the temporary hitpoints coming at the right times to save himself.  It ends up being kind of weird that the Barbarian is doing the most strategic thinking in the party.



Yes it is. It seems to be a flaw. Just like the Pathfinder Beta Rage Points - for playing an "all-out" mindlessly raging character, fiddling with points or tactical positioning just seems wrong to me... I hope they look at this.


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## Cadfan (Oct 22, 2008)

Rechan said:


> ?
> 
> Katar: d6 (high crit)
> Shuriken in rogue's hands: d6
> ...



Sure, but daggers are 1d4 (compensated by the accuracy bonus, I know), and while the rogue has weapons that equal a 1d8 weapon, that's where the fighter _starts._

A low [w] weapon isn't bad, particularly for the rogue who compensates with sneak attack.  But what that means is that doing 2[w] isn't as big of a boost as it would be if [w] was 1d10 instead of 1d4.  This means that firing off an encounter power or a daily power for a rogue usually isn't the route to pwning someone.  Usually its just sneak attacking with piercing strike (which often deals more damage, adjusted for accuracy, than encounters or dailies that don't target a non ac defense).


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## Korvax (Oct 22, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Yes it is. It seems to be a flaw. Just like the Pathfinder Beta Rage Points - for playing an "all-out" mindlessly raging character, fiddling with points or tactical positioning just seems wrong to me... I hope they look at this.



I hope they do consider keeping a level of subtle tactical benefit to the class.

Easy to play, hard to master is a great design goal for every class, in my opinion. Besides, even in fantasy novels, the cunning barbarians were always the most successful.


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## Rechan (Oct 22, 2008)

Except that the Katar is considered a dagger, so in a rogue's hands its +4 to hit, 1d6, high crit.


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## Starbuck_II (Oct 23, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Yes it is. It seems to be a flaw. Just like the Pathfinder Beta Rage Points - for playing an "all-out" mindlessly raging character, fiddling with points or tactical positioning just seems wrong to me... I hope they look at this.



 Um, the player does the point fiddle; not the Character.

Bob hasa job in real world as a lawyer but is Archemuk the Grumbled as a Barbarian in D&D.
Bob does the fiddling; Archemuk does the dismembering.


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## Monkey Boy (Oct 23, 2008)

*Play report - 2 sessions in*

I played a minotaur barbarian with a two handed maul. I got the rage rules wrong and broke the game. No one at the table noticed. ENworld has shown me the error of my ways.

I shall go stand in the corner now.


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## Cadfan (Oct 23, 2008)

Monkey Boy- you have some rules very wrong.  Rage damage does not work the way you think.  Reread.


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## Marshall (Oct 23, 2008)

You're playing the rage wrong. *VERY* wrong. You only get the 3[w] damage on the round you spend the daily. After that, its only +CON bonus to each attack.


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## Rechan (Oct 23, 2008)

Monkey Boy said:


> I played a *minotaur* barbarian with a two handed maul. He dominated the game. He was the main damage dealer by a long shot. He eclipsed the rogue and humbled the fighter. He had more survivability than the rouge as he could generate temp HP to stay standing.
> 
> *Reasons he rocked*
> 
> *Huge Damage* - *oversized* 2 handed maul [W] = 2d8. Rage and this goes to 6d8+5 (str) Half on a miss is still a ton of damage. Rage lasts all encouter. On a crit I did 53 points. I regularly did >30. All this at level 1!  Doing lots of damage, butchering monsters in one hit and winning is fun.



Aside from the two posts above me, I'd like to point something out.

No duh that a minotaur with an oversized weapon playing a Barbarian is going to be better than the next guy. Larger weapon + racial bonus to Str and Con + Charge mechanic racial feat?

It's like saying "My Bugbear brutal scoundrel rogue, who has 20 in Dex and 18 in Str, does more damage than anyone at the table, what with his Predatory Eye and Oversized Short Sword and Katar. Rogues are broken."


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## James McMurray (Oct 23, 2008)

I get the impression you were playing it very wrong. Neither the rage itself nor Rage Strike change your base damage to 3[W] for the extent of the entire rage. It looks like you were doing 2[W] too much for much of the fight.


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## abyssaldeath (Oct 23, 2008)

Wait, I'm confused. He was using Rage Strike at will with an over sized maul and didn't think "Hmm, maybe I'm not doing something correctly here?" I know that might sound a little harsh, but come on REALLY?

Regardless of that "little" mistake, You still can't play test with a MM PC and call a class overpowered.


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## DracoSuave (Oct 23, 2008)

The rage abilities do not change 1[W] to 3[W] all encounter.  They give you the one heavy 3[W] strike Miss: Half attack, and then as an effect give you a buff that lasts all encounter, and the raging condition.  One of those effects is +Con Mod to damage if you or the target are bloodied, and the other is +2 speed, and the ability to shift 2 as a move action.

I suggest your understanding of the class is a bit faulty.

Also, playtesting with non-PC-geared classes is also faulty.

Have I said anything new yet?  No?  Oh.  *sulks at being sarnath'd*


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## UngeheuerLich (Oct 23, 2008)

Monkey Boy said:


> *Reasons he rocked*
> 
> *Huge Damage* - oversized 2 handed maul [W] = 2d8. Rage and this goes to 6d8+5 (str) Half on a miss is still a ton of damage. Rage lasts all encouter. On a crit I did 53 points. I regularly did >30. All this at level 1!  Doing lots of damage, butchering monsters in one hit and winning is fun.
> 
> ...




yes. You ar playing it wrong:

you don´t get an at will which does 2[w] when you have an unspent rage left...

you get an at-will which allows you to spend a daily (rage) power if you already used one before that encounter.
So usually if you have x daily powers, you can use rage strike a maximum of (x-1) times a day. 
You also need to use a daily (rage) power normally first during each enounter  to start raging...


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## Monkey Boy (Oct 23, 2008)

Rechan said:


> No duh that a minotaur with an oversized weapon playing a Barbarian is going to be better than the next guy. Larger weapon + racial bonus to Str and Con + Charge mechanic racial feat?
> 
> It's like saying "My Bugbear brutal scoundrel rogue, who has 20 in Dex and 18 in Str, does more damage than anyone at the table, what with his Predatory Eye and Oversized Short Sword and Katar. Rogues are broken."




I don't think the oversized weapon on its own is broken. Nor do I think your bugbear rogue example is broken. Lets be realistic here, once the Goliath is published we are going to see a lot of oversized weapons at the table. I would not be the least bit surprised if Goliaths get +2 str and +2 con.  Small power-ups sure, but not broken. My problem was with the 3[w] all the time when raging which did, in my opinion, break the game. As has been pointed out *I was using rage very wrong*. 

I've gone back and edited my original post. Turns out I didn't playtest the barbarian after all.


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## Mengu (Oct 23, 2008)

Rechan said:


> Except that the Katar is considered a dagger, so in a rogue's hands its +4 to hit, 1d6, high crit.




How do you figure? I believe this is wrong; there is nothing to support it that I can find. Rogues gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls when they wield a dagger. Katar is not dagger.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Oct 23, 2008)

Starbuck_II said:


> Um, the player does the point fiddle; not the Character.
> 
> Bob hasa job in real world as a lawyer but is Archemuk the Grumbled as a Barbarian in D&D.
> Bob does the fiddling; Archemuk does the dismembering.




I know - still I find it cool if "gameplay" and "in-game" can match. Of course it's not high on the 4E priority list, and I'm also fine with that...


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## Cadfan (Oct 23, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I know - still I find it cool if "gameplay" and "in-game" can match. Of course it's not high on the 4E priority list, and I'm also fine with that...



I had similar thoughts about the barbarian.  His "rush in and kill everyone" style actually requires a lot of tactical thinking.  I'm not sure whether I think that's really cool (I like tactics) or a mismatch.


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## Ander00 (Oct 28, 2008)

Yesterday, I got to try out the barbarian some more. Or rather, a different barbarian. The party underwent some changes once again. Notably, the ranger was swapped out for a one-handed fighter, so the barbarian, now being the only striker, had to be a bit more aggressive than the previous one. Also, I received my new dice in the mail yesterday, and rolling things other than 2s, I actually managed to hit most of the time.

The party now consists of a human wizard, half-elf paladin, dwarven one-handed fighter, dragonborn inspiring warlord and the new warforged barbarian.

While he more closely resembles the typical barbarian now, I just cannot go completely with the flow, so I chose not to pick up any heavy armor proficiencies and to make Dexterity a secondary stat (it is currently tied with Constitution, but will be raised more), for an increase in Initiative, Reflex defense and AC (also, potentially going into Deadly Trickster later on, though I'd need to talk the DM into swapping one more attribute point then).
His feats so far (at level 8) are Fullblade Proficiency, Toughness, Improved Warforged Resolve, Warforged Tactics, and Powerful Charge. Next will be Student of the Sword, to get into Warforged Juggernaut. His at-will powers are _Howling Strike_ and _Pressing Strike_, and for his other powers I basically just took the most damaging ones for now, though I might retrain one or two of those. His AC is very close to that of the wizard and far behind the paladin's and the fighter's.

Between the the temporary hit points he received from the half-elf's _Sacred Flame_, his _Warforged Resolve_, killing things, and the odd other source, he very often had a buffer to take the edge off of hits. So far, he can manage well enough without _Recuperating Strike_, and the first one to run out of healing surges will likely once again be the warlord (who has already received a _Cure Serious Wounds_ from the wizard, but also has a Dwarven Scale in reserve).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

The first of the four combats he did well enough in the damage-dealing department. He landed his only critical hit of the evening when he made an Opportunity Attack against a quickling, and killed, I believe, 3 of the enemies. He did not get to use his _Swift Charge_ power, as the enemies were usually too far away, and in one case, too close.

The second combat he cleared some minions with a Blade Sweep, and then once again could not charge the one that remained. He then followed the two defenders, who were fighting that night's elite soldier elsewhere. I hate those things, and this one had a -2 attack aura to boot, but the barbarian still managed to hit it fairly often (also thanks to the warlord and his _Leaf on the Wind_, which ensured everyone could flank in this cramped space).

The third combat consisted of some brutes and lurkers, as well as an artillery that zapped us from elsewhere through magical means. He again did some killing, failing once to use _Swift Charge_ because he was too close, and a second time because the death throes of his latest victim blinded him (and the DM, who likes to err on the side of 'No' was stuck in a 3.5 mindset - back then charging had a clause about needing line of sight). In the end, he used his _Swift Charge_ on one of the objects the artillery was shooting through.

The fourth combat was a solo controller, and it was about as tedious as expected. Our party makeup was decidedly bad for this one in particular, with four melee characters (who were tossed around and knocked down a lot) and a wizard. The barbarian did alright, all things considered, and in the end landed the killing blow, using a basic attack granted from his Bestial Hide.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Overall, much more satisfying than the last session, though that isn't hard. His damage output was probably a little behind what the rogue would've done. Despite his shoddy AC, he could mostly stand at the front, or charge right into it, and live, quite comfortably as well. We do have two defenders now though. Also, none of the encounters were significantly over our level.

Both _Swift Charge_ and Rampage once again did very little, which is somewhat disappointing. Due to landing quite a few killing blows, he was granted a tidy amount of temporary hit points from his Rageblood Vigor over the course of the session. The effects of the rages were not spectacular, but in the end they both added damage in the double digits to the barbarian's output for the encounter.


cheers


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## Phaezen (Oct 28, 2008)

Cadfan said:


> I had similar thoughts about the barbarian.  His "rush in and kill everyone" style actually requires a lot of tactical thinking.  I'm not sure whether I think that's really cool (I like tactics) or a mismatch.




Possibly you could play it as natural cunning and instinct, rather than cold tactical thinking?

Phaezen


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## Orcus Porkus (Oct 28, 2008)

*Improve Charging is the key*

I played a 3rd level dwarf barbarian on Sunday. He's now 4th level (sheet below).
I too was overall pleased, but a bit disappointed since I didn't kill an enemy once, or landed a crit (although I did a lot of damage), and thus couldn't do rampage etc. I also got trapped because the monsters focussed on me as the most dangerous guy (good sign).
The *bloodclaw weapon* worked well because I had so many freshly added temp HP.

My lessons:

I will use *great leap* (utility level 2) to get out of trapped situations, in order to charge again. It seems that *jumping over the heads of monsters* is possible.

I will also use *boots of adept charging* (AV) which allow me to shift after the charge (which is huge since the rules don't allow any movement after a charge attack).
I'm planning to *risk more OA's* by breaking out and charging back in, in conjunction with the fighter who gets free attacks if I escape from a marked target.

We will occasionally *adjust initiative* so the warlord comes after me, and shifts me with *wolfpack tactics* if needed, which, in conjunction with the boots, give me the running start of 2 squares for the next charge, or commander's strike perhaps.

With the *powerful charge feat* I deal +2 damage, and I also plan to use bullrush +2 bonus in connection with girdle of the oxen (+1 square on the push) if there is a pit I can toss the enemy into, just for the fun of it.

_*Question about charging*_: Do I really need to move the whole distance in a straight line? I thought it's enough to cover the last 2 squares in a straight line.


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## Ander00 (Oct 28, 2008)

Orcus Porkus said:


> Do I really need to move the whole distance in a straight line? I thought it's enough to cover the last 2 squares in a straight line.



The rules just say you must "move directly" (i.e. the minimum possible distance in squares), there isn't really a limitation to straight lines at any point.


cheers


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## Hypersmurf (Oct 28, 2008)

Mengu said:


> How do you figure? I believe this is wrong; there is nothing to support it that I can find. Rogues gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls when they wield a dagger. Katar is not dagger.




Right.  Katar and Dagger are both _light blades_, but the Rogue Weapon talent applies to Dagger specifically, not to light blades in general.

-Hyp.


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## allofyouandyou (Oct 28, 2008)

Hey guys, 1st post at enworld/hi/all that.

Agreeing about that MM playtests not being accurate, two things I'd like to point out.
I hastily built my friend a Minotaur Barbarian to jump into our 12th level adventure.  Certainly not optimized (18/14 array.)  He wanted to be fast, so he got fleet-footed and fast runner.  Oversized executioner's axe is 2D6 Brutal 2!  Make it a +3 Vanguard, which is level appropriate.  Weapon Focus+2,  So howling strike deals, at 12th,
2D6+2D6+D8+11.

As a result, he was out damaging striker encounters on his 9-11 square at-will charge.  Beastly.

The second tidbit, which I'm sure lots of people noticed really quickly:

Warforged with the playtest barb PP is conscious, stable, and fighting until negative bloodied once per day (Deathless Frenzy).  Considering the huge HP totals, having an effective extra 1/2 total hp and the ability to heal to 0+ from any healing (making even a crappy potion effectively heal 40-ish HP?) ....and with Warforged bonuses to saves,

A warforged paladin lightly multiclassed into barb, however it becomes available, for the (pretty awful) Frenzied Beserker PP...


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## Caliban (Oct 29, 2008)

Rechan said:


> Except that the Katar is considered a dagger, so in a rogue's hands its +4 to hit, 1d6, high crit.




Where is this tidbit of information found?  I couldn't find it in the Players Handbook.


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## Hypersmurf (Oct 29, 2008)

Caliban said:


> Where is this tidbit of information found?  I couldn't find it in the Players Handbook.




I suspect Rechan is confusing the Katar with the Kukri from Adventurer's Vault: "A rogue proficient with the kukri can treat it as a dagger for the purpose of the Rogue Weapon Talent class feature."  But the Kukri has only a +2 proficiency bonus, so with the Dagger the rogue is at +4/1d4, with the Katar at +3/1d6, and with the Kukri +3/1d6.

The Rogue with the Kukri is trading a point of attack bonus and a feat for a higher damage die and Brutal 1.

-Hyp.


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## Danceofmasks (Oct 29, 2008)

Well, the confusion could also be due to a katar being, by definition, a punching dagger.
Doesn't mean it is actually a dagger, though.


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## ricardo440 (Oct 29, 2008)

Our groups Barbarian (level 5) had his second outing on monday evening.

We only did one small fight (a level 3 encounter, one against some goblins and a bugbear from thunderspire labyrinth C1 I think)

It is good to have a striker in the group now, as a GM it makes things a little easier as we can actually get fights resolved quicker now.
I have to say I have not been shocked by the damage that the Barbarian can do. He is doing about 19 a turn when he hit (this is as a GM hearing what he says, not thinking about actual powers he was using over the fight). Nothing excessive, I'm sure my ranger was doing something similar if slightly less at his level.

But he does pay for it, he is squishy. He is taking a beating every round, they had poorly positioned themselves so the barbarian was getting far more attacks than the paladin (whose AC is much greater). But during the fight he received 2 healing words, and used his second wind (as a dwarf). Nobody else really got hurt.

For an encounter -2 of their level, that concerns me as a GM.


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## Celtavian (Oct 29, 2008)

*re*

My experience so far:

1. At Wills: The barbarian has some of the best at wills I've seen for a class.

a. Recuperating Strike: Very nice hit point boost to keep you going when you're low.

b. Pressing Strikes: Being able to move around the battlefield is a nifty ability. I use Pressing Strikes to get flanks and fly around the battlefield.

c. Howling Strike: I love charging and being able to do an attack other than a basic attack. 

2. Swift Charge: Situational useful. Would be more useful if you didn't provoke AooS wen charging. I have to be careful not to provoke Aoos. It has been useful at times in open battles, but definitely not an every encounter ability.

3. Rampage: This may be more useful at higher level. At low level when I get a crit, I usually kill what I'm hitting. But I think this will get better as I level.

4. Rage: I like the rage mechanic. It is fairly useful for the entire encounter. It would be nice if there were not additional requirements like "target must be bloodied" and the like for some of the rages. But overall the rage mechanic is very nice and adds quite a bit of power to the Barbarian.

5. Lack of Armor: The lack of armor makes them too easily hit. I would enhance their defenses somehow so that their armor class will be more in line with other strikers. Most strikers are based around two stats, no reason to force the Barbarian to work on three. So far only the Paladin is pushed to boost three stats for maximum effectiveness, and they can get away with two.

6. Defenses: The Barbaran mobility seems like they should have +1 defense to Fort and Reflex rather than +2 Fortitude.

7. Encounter and Daily Powers: Their encounter and daily powers are quite nice. Great Cleave is situational, but you are in that situation pretty often. Blade Sweep is pretty nice too. The added damage from the AoE of each attack adds up to quite a bit aggregate damage.

8. They could use a base skill like Nature on top of their other skills. The Barbarian is savage, but most tribal cultures are trained to live outdoors. The Barbarian has the lowest number of skills of all the strikers.

9. Hit points and healing surges: It is pretty fun to play a Striker that is harder to kill. I think they were spot on with this.

10. Simple Ranged: All classes should have at least Simple Ranged Weapons. I hope this was an oversight by the game designers. You can't tell me that barbarians don't know how to throw spears or axes. Make sure to include Simple Ranged Weapons since just about everyone will house rule barbarians to have proficiency with Simple Ranged Weapons.

The barbarian is a fun class. I hope to see a few tweaks to improve the class such as those for AC and a modification of defenses. But overall I like the barbarian mechanics. The class is a very unique striker much different from the other striker classes. He does quite a bit of damage and is very mobile. I'm very much enjoying the class. I can't wait to see the barbarian in final form.


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## Mengu (Oct 29, 2008)

Good observations. Agree with the free Nature skill.



Celtavian said:


> 10. Simple Ranged: All classes should have at least Simple Ranged Weapons. I hope this was an oversight by the game designers. You can't tell me that barbarians don't know how to throw spears or axes. Make sure to include Simple Ranged Weapons since just about everyone will house rule barbarians to have proficiency with Simple Ranged Weapons.




Barbarians already have proficiency with simple and martial melee weapons, and as such can throw spears and axes. I think it's fine that barbarians don't have proficiency with simple ranged weapons, which are crossbows and slings.


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## ThirdWizard (Oct 29, 2008)

Celtavian said:


> My experience so far:
> 2. Swift Charge: Situational useful. Would be more useful if you didn't provoke AooS wen charging. I have to be careful not to provoke Aoos. It has been useful at times in open battles, but definitely not an every encounter ability.




Use Howling Strike -> no OA! (Provided you're raging of course). 

I got use out of this ability about 75% of encounters.



> 3. Rampage: This may be more useful at higher level. At low level when I get a crit, I usually kill what I'm hitting. But I think this will get better as I level.




You specifically do not have to attack what you crit. As long as you're by 2 enemies (not uncommon IMX), you're golden. I've done this 2 out of 3 crits.



> 4. Rage: I like the rage mechanic. It is fairly useful for the entire encounter. It would be nice if there were not additional requirements like "target must be bloodied" and the like for some of the rages. But overall the rage mechanic is very nice and adds quite a bit of power to the Barbarian.




That's one reason I like Swift Panther much more than Bloodhunt. Even if you always got the extra damage, though, I'd still prefer Swift Panther. I think Bloodhunt would be fine without the requirement.



> 10. Simple Ranged: All classes should have at least Simple Ranged Weapons. I hope this was an oversight by the game designers. You can't tell me that barbarians don't know how to throw spears or axes.




Spears and axes are melee proficiency, not ranged! You can use them just fine.


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## Orcus Porkus (Oct 29, 2008)

There is a lot of confusing discussion of the "direct" movement requirement while charging. Does it mean a straight line, or the shortest? What if there are obstacles or enemies in the way? Does anybody know an official answer on this? I have read extremely contradicting arguments.


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## Gort (Oct 29, 2008)

Orcus Porkus said:


> There is a lot of confusing discussion of the "direct" movement requirement while charging. Does it mean a straight line, or the shortest? What if there are obstacles or enemies in the way? Does anybody know an official answer on this? I have read extremely contradicting arguments.




http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/241858-move-action-before-charge-attack.html

That thread has the answers you seek.


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## James McMurray (Oct 29, 2008)

Celtavian said:


> 5. Lack of Armor: The lack of armor makes them too easily hit. I would enhance their defenses somehow so that their armor class will be more in line with other strikers. Most strikers are based around two stats, no reason to force the Barbarian to work on three. So far only the Paladin is pushed to boost three stats for maximum effectiveness, and they can get away with two.




Do the increased hit points and At Will power that grants temporary hit points not make up for this any? It seems like simply increasing their AC would put them too far ahead of the curve in other ways.


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## Mengu (Oct 29, 2008)

James McMurray said:


> Do the increased hit points and At Will power that grants temporary hit points not make up for this any? It seems like simply increasing their AC would put them too far ahead of the curve in other ways.




No, unfortunately hit points are not a good substitute for AC. Constantly being knocked down, grabbed, dazed, slowed, immobilized, blinded, stunned, etc. because monsters have an easy time hitting you, is not fun at all.


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## James McMurray (Oct 29, 2008)

So you'd rather they take away the hit point boosts and increase AC?


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## Mengu (Oct 29, 2008)

James McMurray said:


> So you'd rather they take away the hit point boosts and increase AC?




I'd rather not see an AC 14 barbarian in the front line at first level, if he is supposed to be part defender. At higher levels the difference gets more ridiculous unless the barbarian upgrades his armor, and he should not be forced to spend his feats on armor.

I like the temporary hit point mechanics, and would rather not get rid of them.

Given the hybrid class role, I want to see the Barbarian somewhere between the rogue and the fighter for defensive and offensive abilities.

If the barbarian got his secondary stat as an AC bonus (constitution or charisma), his AC would start out at a 15-16 or so. This is typically the same as the rogue, except the barbarian has more HP's (temp or permanent) and surges for self preservation. Seems like a good compromise on defense.

A greatweapon fighter with Reaping Strike averages pretty decent damage. The Rogue obviously is better. The barbarian currently is between the two, right where he belongs.

Currently the barbarian can already start with a 16 AC by spending 1 feat (a no brainer feat). The improvement to AC I'm suggesting is that he not be required to spend that feat to start with 16 AC.


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## hvg3akaek (Oct 30, 2008)

Mengu said:


> No, unfortunately hit points are not a good substitute for AC. Constantly being knocked down, grabbed, dazed, slowed, immobilized, blinded, stunned, etc. because monsters have an easy time hitting you, is not fun at all.




In our game (at level 3-4), the barbarian hardly ever took real damage.  The defence difference was not that great, and he kept his Temp HP up so that when attacks did get through, they generally only ate at them.  I think there were a few encounters where he took no "real" damage at all!


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## MadLordOfMilk (Oct 30, 2008)

So I finally got to play my Warforged Barbarian today (woo!), if only for one encounter. I loved it. I didn't take Recuperating Strike; stuck with Howling and Pressing.

Howling strike is really the only at-will that does more damage than a basic melee AND can be used while charging AND stops OAs from charging while raging. Awesome. I used it SEVERAL times.

Pressing strike was nice to easily get into flanking positions, though I can also see it being really nice for manipulating enemy positions. One thing to note is that you DO push 1 if you hit with it, so you can't basically guarantee flanking to your allies. If the creature is 2x2 it's a bit tougher to get into flanking with it (read: it's not basically guaranteed), but you're still very able to move around the outside of the creature.

Recuperating strike I didn't take so I can't comment on it. I've heard a lot of good things about it but I can't really see it being as great as people are making it out to be. It's not like temporary HP stacks. Plus, pressing/howling strike allow for more aggression.

Avalanche Strike: ow. Combined with a greataxe that's (3-36dmg)+str+con, with an executioner's axe that's (9-36dmg)+str+con. The bonus to attack rolls against me didn't seem to make much difference: I wasn't being targetted really anyway. Of course, I'm also the type to really not mind taking damage to hack more at my enemy (I provoked an OA just to get Avalanche Strike off).

Rages I didn't get a chance to utilize, unfortunately (again, only one encounter at the end of our session). I'll comment more on that later.


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## chitzk0i (Oct 30, 2008)

MadLordOfMilk said:


> One thing to note is that you DO push 1 if you hit with it, so you can't basically guarantee flanking to your allies.




Actually, check the rules for forced movement.  You can always reduce the distance you push something, even to zero.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Oct 30, 2008)

Starbuck_II said:


> Um, the player does the point fiddle; not the Character.
> 
> Bob hasa job in real world as a lawyer but is Archemuk the Grumbled as a Barbarian in D&D.
> Bob does the fiddling; Archemuk does the dismembering.



Yes, but there was an article(or post, I can't remember at the moment) talking about Power Attack and why one of the designers at WOTC(can't remember which) thought it was a bad idea.  One of his main points was that the "feel" of the mechanic was off.  The feat was supposed to represent rage and sacrificing accuracy for more damage.  Meanwhile, the mechanic made players do a bunch of math to figure out the right number to power attack for at the table.  So, the players who were supposed to be blindly attacking without thinking were instead thinking more than everyone else.

Although there is a lot of separation of character and player, in some ways the mechanics help bring you "into character".  They help with the immersion.  If this wasn't the case, you wouldn't see large numbers of threads talking about how the mechanics of 4e ruined people's immersion.  I can tolerate a LARGE separation between the mechanics and what is going on.  If the mechanics stayed exactly the same, I wouldn't refuse to play Barbarians or think that the designers had no idea what they were doing.  On the other hand, I'd prefer a mechanic with less thinking.  If I'm playing a Barbarian, I should be able to use the biggest attack I have, hit with it and do large damage.  And then risk death when the enemy retaliates against me because I rushed in without thinking, only to be saved by the fighter's tactics.

Currently, the fighter plays more like that than the Barbarian, however.


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## Mengu (Oct 30, 2008)

hvg3akaek said:


> In our game (at level 3-4), the barbarian hardly ever took real damage. The defence difference was not that great, and he kept his Temp HP up so that when attacks did get through, they generally only ate at them. I think there were a few encounters where he took no "real" damage at all!




How hard were the encounters? How many real defenders were in the party? What defensive feats did the barbarian have? These will all play a factor in how much damage the barbarian takes. How is the defense difference not that great between an AC 14-15 barbarian, and an AC 19-20 real defender?

And if the barbarian isn't taking any real damage, he is not doing half his job, which is to put himself out there to draw attacks. The temp hit points from recuperating strike are only around 3-4 points. When hit by brutes, artillary or skirmishers, he should be taking significantly more damage than that unless he is extremely lucky.

At 16th level, with only armor specialization feats where possible and using standard array humans, the barbarian's AC is 28, while the wizard is 29, the rogue is 31, the warlord is 32, and the fighter is 35. 7 points of AC difference for the two front liners in the party is quite significant, when most monsters of their level need around a 12-14 to hit the fighter, and a 5-7 to hit the barbarian. Even at level 1, the difference between AC 14 and AC 19 for two front liners, is cause for concern.


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## Orcus Porkus (Oct 30, 2008)

Regarding at-will powers:
Is it a good rule of thumb to
1) always take Howling Strike

2) take Recuperating Strike only with high CON, like a +4 bonus, and if you intend to get beaten up in the middle of melee

3) take Pressing Strike if using a reach weapon, or are low on CON, or want to be more a tactician than a defender who takes damage.

?


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## Gort (Oct 30, 2008)

hvg3akaek said:


> In our game (at level 3-4), the barbarian hardly ever took real damage.  The defence difference was not that great, and he kept his Temp HP up so that when attacks did get through, they generally only ate at them.  I think there were a few encounters where he took no "real" damage at all!




Wait a minute, his temporary hitpoints were able to absorb entire attacks? He should only have a couple of temporary HP at any time. Are you letting him stack them, by any chance? Because that's against the rules.


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## Orcus Porkus (Oct 30, 2008)

Gort said:


> Wait a minute, his temporary hitpoints were able to absorb entire attacks? He should only have a couple of temporary HP at any time. Are you letting him stack them, by any chance? Because that's against the rules.




That's not entirely true. PHB 294:


> Don’t Add Together: If you get temporary hit
> points from different sources, use the higher value as
> your temporary hit point total instead of adding the
> values together.




since recuperating strike is the same source, I think you can stack them.


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## abyssaldeath (Oct 30, 2008)

No, the general rule is that bonuses from the same source do not stack, but bonuses from different sources do stack. That entry from PHB 294 is an exception to the rule that bonuses from different sources stack.


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## ricardo440 (Oct 30, 2008)

The temporary HP don't stack. Any new ones if greater than the old simply rewrite the old.


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## sammy (Oct 30, 2008)

Hello all.

A player of mine was itching to try the Barbarian, so I had him make a 4th level one, and I made a warlord of same level, to keep him around a little, so we can see him in action.

He went human, had all 3 at wills, and took great cleave, and swift panther rage.

I had a group of 6 orc minions and 4 orc raiders straight from the MM.  No terrain on the battlefield.  

Yes, the barbarian did great damage, thanks in part to the great axe he used, but he was target practice to the orcs.  Good thing I had a warlord to help, or he would have went down quickly.

He charged constantly, and used pressing strike a good bit also.  He loves it.  As a DM, I see how it is powerful, but he does need a good group of allies to support him, or else he's toast.  

PS- Commanders strike and a barbarian are a great combo.  I kept saying "hit it again", and he just ripped it all up.  Awesome.

Sammy


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## sammy (Oct 30, 2008)

SIDE NOTE

We also went up 2 levels and tried another fight with hobgoblins- 3 soldiers and an archer.

We then went up 2 more levels and fought 3 Ogre skirmishers.  

The barbarian shined in all of them, thanks to yours truly and his trusty warlord.   The barbarians abilities to get temp hp is a great way to soak damage, like I think he should.

Temp hp's helped him a good bit.  Fun class, the player loves it.  I as a DM also like the way it works.

Sammy


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## Orcus Porkus (Oct 30, 2008)

ricardo440 said:


> The temporary HP don't stack. Any new ones if greater than the old simply rewrite the old.




I wonder how many people don't follow this rule. I certainly didn't last time I played the barbarian.


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## chitzk0i (Oct 30, 2008)

Orcus Porkus said:


> Regarding at-will powers:
> Is it a good rule of thumb to
> 1) always take Howling Strike
> 
> ...




Howling strike is great because you can use it with swift charge and the extra damage is always nice.  

When raging, Recuperating Strike gets much better.  Instead of just a few, it's a whole hit's worth.  

Pressing strike is great with _any_ weapon.  If there is flanking to be had, you will have it.  If you're cut off from escape, you can shift through enemies.  You can push one, then bug out.  

Howling strike is great damage and your other two options have great utility.  I'd say to pick whichever ones you want.  You're good either way.


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## Mengu (Oct 30, 2008)

Orcus Porkus said:


> I wonder how many people don't follow this rule. I certainly didn't last time I played the barbarian.




Cleric's Sacred Flame, Paladin's Bolstering Strike, and Infernal Warlock's pact boon are powers that work in a similar fashion. The Barbarian's Recuperating Strike is nothing new in the temporary hit point department, and does not stack with itself. I can see a few groups making the mistake, but not many.


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## Orcus Porkus (Oct 30, 2008)

*Warlord/Barbarian team*

Here is a possible sequence with 1 or 2 warlords and 1 Barbarian:

1) *Barbarian* moves into position for a charge, and then attacks with _Howling Strike,_ and hopefully hits. The Barbarian doesn't provoke OA when charging during rage. Outside rage he just eats it up. If critical, he hits again (_Rampage_, basic melee against any target, once per round), if it kills, he gains temp HP equal to CON and _swift charges_ to another target (once per encounter). After the charge he shifts away with _boots of adept charging_, if he expects the warlord to use _wolfpack tactics_ on him, in order to be able to charge again without prior movement. If charging is impossible, he uses _recuperating strike_ to gain temp HP, or _pressing strike_ to clear up a path out, or shift enemies into combat advantage. Keep in mind there are no other actions allowed after a charge.

2) *Warlord A* uses _commander's strike_ if Barbarian is adjacent to a target. _Commander's Strike_ adds the Warlord INT bonus to the Barbarian's basic attack. See 1) for possible chain reaction. 

Alternatively he uses _wolfpack tactics_ if possible (needs to be adjacent to target or ally). If wolfpack is not possible, he helps out the barbarian with healing or bonuses or does his own thing.

3) *Warlord B* repeats the same tactic Warlord A did, unless tactical movement is not necessary or rampage and swift charge are used up already. The chance is high that before the Barbarian's turn is up again, he did some nasty damage and hopefully multiple attacks and kills and self-healing. Temp HP's don't stack up though.

4) Repeat at 1)

The goal is to let the Barbarian make use of _Rampage_ once per round, and the _Swift Charge_ once per encounter. A Barbarian with a reach weapon adds even more flexibility to this scenario. He can shift after the charge to gain flexibility, and then use the free basic attacks from_ Commander's strike_ without being adjacent to a target. Of course this works with just one Warlord, I just liked the ridiculous idea of 2 warlords


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## hvg3akaek (Oct 30, 2008)

Gort said:


> Wait a minute, his temporary hitpoints were able to absorb entire attacks? He should only have a couple of temporary HP at any time. Are you letting him stack them, by any chance? Because that's against the rules.




No, he just only ever seemed to get hit when either:
(a) he had a stack of THP (from raging, an encounter power, or the like.  Not from actually stacking), or
(b) something hit him with al low damage roll.

There were times when he was hit for more than the THP he had, which was why I said "hardly ever", and not "never"   But, over the evening, he came out with less real damage taken than anyone else in the party, thanks to his THP.  I think they work...


Will be trying the barb out at paragon levels soon, so I will see if the same thing happens then


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## James McMurray (Oct 31, 2008)

Our epic game is soon to have a Barbarian / Iron Vanguard. He's looking at combining regen, temp hp, and resistance to become practically immune to hit point damage. I'll be sure to post how it works out when it happens (in a couple of weeks).


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## vic20 (Oct 31, 2008)

Orcus Porkus said:


> I wonder how many people don't follow this rule. I certainly didn't last time I played the barbarian.




In one of my campaigns, a 2nd level warlock managed to hover at the edge of combat slowly stacking up temporary hp, eventually hitting 70. It was pretty insane. A careful reading of the PHB and a discussion with the good people here at ENWorld straightened me out.


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## RefinedBean (Oct 31, 2008)

James McMurray said:


> Our epic game is soon to have a Barbarian / Iron Vanguard. He's looking at combining regen, temp hp, and resistance to become practically immune to hit point damage. I'll be sure to post how it works out when it happens (in a couple of weeks).




Heh, I'm going to do the same with my guy.    Does he have any of the Armor Proficiency feats?  I'm thinking I might retrain them in the paragon tier, but so far, it's been necessary to survive heroic.


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## Thordain (Oct 31, 2008)

James McMurray said:


> Our epic game is soon to have a Barbarian / Iron Vanguard. He's looking at combining regen, temp hp, and resistance to become practically immune to hit point damage. I'll be sure to post how it works out when it happens (in a couple of weeks).




I'm playing in a paragon game with a warforged barbarian. It was very difficult for me to choose between iron vanguard and warforged juggernaut for PPs. I eventually went juggernaut, and got a horned helm and a bloodclaw weapon. The feats I chose were:

1. chainmail prof
2. warforged tactics
3. mordenkrad prof
4. scale prof
6. student of the sword
5. weapon focus
7. hammer rhythm

He's doing an awesome +4d6 damage on charges (+2d6 from howling strike, +1d6 from horned helm, +1d6 from charging strike). 

I think Iron Vanguard may actually be stronger as a PP but the charging around is a lot of fun -- so much so that I'm just doing that instead of using encounter powers!


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## James McMurray (Oct 31, 2008)

RefinedBean said:


> Heh, I'm going to do the same with my guy.    Does he have any of the Armor Proficiency feats?  I'm thinking I might retrain them in the paragon tier, but so far, it's been necessary to survive heroic.




He probably will. At epic the difference between Light and Heavy armor can be 9 AC. The player's one goal when making characters seems to be maximizing damage output and negation, so he'll almost certainly spend at least one or two feats on armor.


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## icarusfallz (Oct 31, 2008)

I am playing a lvl 3 Earthsoul Genasi Barbarian with a +1 Battlecrazed Fullblade. (I also took Warrior of the wild) Most fun I've had in a LONG time. If I crit with my Avalance strike against a character that is my Quarry, I do in the neighborhood of 60 points of damage.


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## Gort (Oct 31, 2008)

vic20 said:


> In one of my campaigns, a 2nd level warlock managed to hover at the edge of combat slowly stacking up temporary hp, eventually hitting 70. It was pretty insane. A careful reading of the PHB and a discussion with the good people here at ENWorld straightened me out.




Heh, that's one of the reasons I love this forum. 90% of the time when something happens ingame that I think, "Bloody hell, that's totally overpowered!" but can't find a rule to disallow it, there's someone on ENworld who has an answer for it.

Of course, the other 10% it's stuff like _Rain of Blows_ that's just overpowered by the RAW, but it's nice to be sure about these things.


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## Skornn2k7 (Nov 1, 2008)

Does anyone know if the Final Playtest Barbarian is the same as the original copy ? I know sometimes they update the final copy when they put out the compiled Dragon format. I was wondering if anyone noticed if the playtest was same, or has been updated in the compiled version. I want to print out a copy, but thought I would wait to see if they made any changes.

thanks in advance for info,

Skornn


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## Celtavian (Nov 1, 2008)

James McMurray said:


> Do the increased hit points and At Will power that grants temporary hit points not make up for this any? It seems like simply increasing their AC would put them too far ahead of the curve in other ways.




It's hard to tell at low level. Monsters hit pretty easy and there are a huge number of Aoe attacks and auras that eat right through temp hit points. It might make up for it at low level, but the very low AC might hurt at higher level. I can't be sure yet.

I did notice the added mobility from pressing strikes allowed me to move around the battlefield and draw the guys hitting me to the defenders. So that was nice. I just ran around hacking tons of different people rather than focus on one like most strikers do. I ran the guys trying to hit me right by the defenders. It was enteraining to say the least.


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## Celtavian (Nov 1, 2008)

ThirdWizard said:


> Use Howling Strike -> no OA! (Provided you're raging of course).
> 
> I got use out of this ability about 75% of encounters.




The only battle I scored a couple of crits on killed the guys I was fighting wit no one nearby. It just happened to be a spread out battle. I'm sure it will be better in closer quarters.





> That's one reason I like Swift Panther much more than Bloodhunt. Even if you always got the extra damage, though, I'd still prefer Swift Panther. I think Bloodhunt would be fine without the requirement.




I was torn too. I took Bloodhunt, but maybe I'll switch to Swift Panther.





> Spears and axes are melee proficiency, not ranged! You can use them just fine.




Ahh, good know. I forgot that things aren't separated like before. Heavy thrown weapons are included in melee. Cool. I was thinking I needed simple ranged to use spears and thrown weapons. My bad.


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## James McMurray (Nov 1, 2008)

Skornn2k7 said:


> Does anyone know if the Final Playtest Barbarian is the same as the original copy ? I know sometimes they update the final copy when they put out the compiled Dragon format. I was wondering if anyone noticed if the playtest was same, or has been updated in the compiled version. I want to print out a copy, but thought I would wait to see if they made any changes.
> 
> thanks in advance for info,
> 
> Skornn




I cut and pasted both of them into text files and diffed them against one another. Apart from some formatting changes, they're identical.


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## MadLordOfMilk (Nov 4, 2008)

In terms of the OP: Pretty much agree with the OP minus the over-complexity thing. It was pretty simplistic for me. This is coming from having switched from a Wizard, which seemed to have a lot more complexity (having extra dailies you pick from, tracking rituals, things of that nature). I agree that the at-wills are definitely very nice. Heavy armor definitely seems important, though the survivability benefits of the class are offset by the generally crappy will/ref saves; defender-level HP keeps this from being overwhelming, though. Plus, the "zomg AC from armor feats" option really isn't just a Barbarian thing, it just seems more obvious given the class and STR/CON focus. The "no 1/round tacked on damage mechanic" is a huge plus also, I wasn't really a fan of the system in the first place (it's just one more thing to have to keep track of).

General comments:
Played some more barbarian today. I had one question: with a rage effect such as the bonus damage from Bloodhunt Rage, does the bonus-damage-while-self-or-target-is-bloodied add to the power's damage itself or no? I'm assuming no, but I wasn't sure.

In either case, I crit on usage of Bloodhunt Rage and got an 11 on the high crit roll (<3 greataxes!) giving something like 51dmg. Unfortunately, there was nothing adjacent to me to hit with rampage (given that I obliterated the thing in front of me), and I missed on the swift charge I took, but it was still epic. ("You hit for FIFTY-ONE DAMAGE!?"). Crits are a beautiful thing as a barbarian.

Shift back 1 + charge something w/howling strike saw pretty much constant use in combat. Really I pretty much used Howling Strike constantly with the occasional use of Pressing Strike when I need a better position.

Compared to the ranger in my party I was averaging a bit more damage, but I was also rolling really well and am more experienced when it comes to min/maxing and powergaming in D&D terms. I also survived longer in combat but the ranger was getting focused on much more - though this had more to do with his choice of positioning than class balance. My Will and Ref saves are pretty terri-bad, but my AC and Fort are high. Still too early to make any balancing calls but it's definitely not screaming "omg! overpowered!" (or the reverse) to me.


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## amysrevenge (Nov 4, 2008)

I found mine to be incredibly delicate.  14 Dex, so with Hide he's only 1 AC behind Chainmail.  I was a yo-yo, flipping between unconcious and  unbloodied as fast as the cleric and warlord could heal me.  Did some nice damage though.  Was fun, and a change of pace from the cleric and warlock I normally play.


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## DracoSuave (Nov 4, 2008)

Orcus Porkus said:


> He can shift after the charge to gain flexibility




Not unless he spends an AP.


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## WalterKovacs (Nov 4, 2008)

DracoSuave said:


> Not unless he spends an AP.




He was refering to a Barbarian using a specific magic item that allows a shift after a charge.


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## DracoSuave (Nov 4, 2008)

WalterKovacs said:


> He was refering to a Barbarian using a specific magic item that allows a shift after a charge.




Right.  Gotcha.


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## MadLordOfMilk (Nov 5, 2008)

amysrevenge said:


> I found mine to be incredibly delicate.  14 Dex, so with Hide he's only 1 AC behind Chainmail.  I was a yo-yo, flipping between unconcious and  unbloodied as fast as the cleric and warlord could heal me.  Did some nice damage though.  Was fun, and a change of pace from the cleric and warlock I normally play.



Ya know, it seems (at least in my experience) that at least one character experiences that every session. That is, being the guy who gets knocked unconscious, healed, knocked unconscious, healed, knocked unconscious, etc ad infinitum.


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## Plane Sailing (Nov 5, 2008)

Orcus Porkus said:


> That's not entirely true. PHB 294:




I can't help thinking that they would have been better to say

"Temp hit points never stack" in the PHB and, if there ever was a situation where they wanted stacking hp, they would call it out as an exception in that particular power.

Would be a lot clearer for people IMO.

Cheers


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## Skornn2k7 (Nov 5, 2008)

I was looking at Pressing Strike, it seems a 'lil too powerful for an At-Will, what do you guys think ? 
My main concern is the shift 2 that allows you to move thru enemies, seems more like an encounter power to me.


*Pressing Strike *[FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std][FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std]Barbarian Attack 1[/FONT]
[/FONT]_[FONT=Mentor Std,Mentor Std][FONT=Mentor Std,Mentor Std]You push lesser foes from your path, moving through the lines of battle at will.[/FONT][/FONT]_[FONT=Mentor Std,Mentor Std]
[/FONT]*At-Will *✦ *Primal, Weapon*
*Standard Action Melee *[FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std][FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std]weapon[/FONT]
[/FONT]*Target: *[FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std][FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std]One creature[/FONT]
[/FONT]*Effect: *[FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std][FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std]Before the attack, you shift 2 squares. You can move through an enemy’s space during the shift, but you can’t end there.[/FONT]
[/FONT]*Attack: *[FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std][FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std]Strength vs. AC[/FONT]
[/FONT]*Hit: *[FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std][FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std]1[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you push the target 1 square. If you are raging, the attack deals 1d6 extra damage.[/FONT]
[FONT=Mentor Sans Std,Mentor Sans Std]Increase damage to 2[W] + Strength modifier at 21st level.[/FONT]


[/FONT]


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## amysrevenge (Nov 5, 2008)

Skornn2k7 said:


> I was looking at Pressing Strike, it seems a 'lil too powerful for an At-Will, what do you guys think ?
> My main concern is the shift 2 that allows you to move thru enemies, seems more like an encounter power to me.




Well, consider what you are giving up to have it I suppose.

1) You're not getting the extra 1d6 damage that Howling Strike deals (unless you're raging).
2) You're not getting the temp hit points from Recuperating Strike
3) Unless you're human, choosing Pressing Strike means you're giving up even having one or the other of the At-Wills.

So far I've used Pressing Strike two times ever, and Howling Strike over a dozen times (only played a couple of times now).

If the shift was after the attack instead of before, it would be too powerful by far (letting you set up for a charge for free).  As it is, it is good - arguably a *bit* too good - but not ridiculous.


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## the8bitdeity (Nov 5, 2008)

amysrevenge said:


> Well, consider what you are giving up to have it I suppose.
> 
> 1) You're not getting the extra 1d6 damage that Howling Strike deals (unless you're raging).
> 2) You're not getting the temp hit points from Recuperating Strike
> ...




Also, I noticed the wording of pressing strike is that you shift 2 squares, not up to. Does that mean you HAVE to shift two squares before the attack? That could be an interesting limitation.


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## DandD (Nov 6, 2008)

I do wonder. Does the barbarian have to always erupt some kind of elemental aura around himself? I'm not very keen on this.


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## WalterKovacs (Nov 6, 2008)

DandD said:


> I do wonder. Does the barbarian have to always erupt some kind of elemental aura around himself? I'm not very keen on this.




It depends on the type of rage.

However, the idea is that he's powered by the primal. So when he rages it's more than just a rage, it also has a primal "spirit" coming into his body. In some cases, like the frost wolf, it adds an elemental aura. But in other cases it's added speed or dealing extra untyped damage ... stuff that's not necessarily as "magical".

In fact, without having to pick lower level powers or power swap, you can pick powers all the way up without taking elemental auras (there are only three, a cold, a fire and a lightning ... there is also one that lets you go ethereal. Everything else can be played off as "physical" effects of the rage). This is only talking about long term encounter long effects of the attacks. The attack itself, and the damage it deals, may have elemental types as part of them.


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## pukunui (Nov 9, 2008)

Great thread.

I'm just building a lvl 3 human barbarian now, and I can't decide which encounter powers I like better. I've got all three at-wills, so that's no problem, and I'm taking _Great Leap_ for my utility and _Swift Panther Rage_ for my daily.

My stats are STR 18 CON 16 DEX 12 INT 8 WIS 12 CHA 10.
Feats: Chain proficiency, Fullblade proficiency, Toughness
Skills: Athletics, Endurance, Nature, Perception
Magic items: _+1 bloodclaw fullblade_, _+1 eladrin chain_, _cloak of the walking wounded_


Essentially, I think I should have either _Great Cleave_ or _Blade Sweep_, but I'm unsure which is better. I quite like _Hammer Fall_, but I don't know if it targeting Fortitude means it'll be easier to hit with or harder ... plus, if I'm patient, I'll be able to knock more opponents prone at lvl 5 with _Thunder Hawk Rage_. I like the hitting bit of _Avalanche Strike_ but not the -4 to AC. That makes _Great Cleave_ more attractive but not a no-brainer.


Any help would be much appreciated.


Cheers,
Jonathan


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## rowport (Nov 9, 2008)

I thought I would throw out my playtest observations, but will do it as a quick summary since it really echoes lots of posts already here.

I am playing in the Forgotten Realms RPGA, with all chargen following those rules.  My character is Durg Heavyheft, a Dwarf Barbarian that uses a Rage technique he learned from Pwent's Gutbusters.  (I mention that because I found it very easy to ignore the fluff that assumes a "primal" background; my party did not even realize that he was a Barbarian until well into a combat since he looked and acted like a Fighter.)

Stats: STR 16 CON 16 DEX 11 INT 8 WIS 16 CHA 12
Feats: Chain proficiency
Skills: Athletics, Endurance, Perception
Equipment: greatsword, throwing hammers, chainmail
Powers:
  At-Will: Howling Strike, Recuperating Strike
  Encounter: Avalanche Strike
  Daily: Bloodhunt Rage

Playtest:
* Barbarians do tremendous damage, but are very sqwishy.  Even with the chainmail proficiency, my AC is only 16 and my other defenses are also very low (Ref 10!).  The tricky part about this is that unlike defenders who can root in place and wait for healing, to make the most of his abilities a Barbarian charges frequently.  I got into hit point trouble frequently.

* I absolutely love Rampage.  Getting excited about having a critical is fun enough, but then another Free Action basic attack is just icing on the cake.  I found myself wondering whether there is a 4e version of a wider critical threat range like the 3e falchion or scimitar-- that would be really great for a Barbarian.

* Using Howling Strike with a charge was my default attack.  It rocks.  Great damage, and great "Hulk Smash!" visuals.

* Avalanche Strike is tricky.  It does huge damage-- I one-hitted a homunculi with it-- but you only want to use it far away from other enemies or risk being a pin cushion with your lower AC.

* Only having one Rage per day makes the class a bit more tactical than it first seems.  Because of all the other powers that get better with Rage you do not want to waste it on a lesser-battle, you really need it with BBEG.  Even just the difference of temp hit points from 3 to 8 is really significant.

* I like the Skill choices, but kind of regret the reduction to only three trained Skills.  I preferred the 3e model here.  But, I like Skills.

That's it!  I will update again after playing more.  I plan to take the full series of armor proficiency feats, chainmail, scale, and plate.  It seems boring to do that, but the higher AC should help quite a bit, more than extra hit points in my opinion.


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## sroy2 (Nov 9, 2008)

*Overpowered...*

We've been trying a 11th level campaign and I think we've found a broken combination:
Genasi Rageblood Barbarian with Elemental Tempest paragon path cross-classed into cleric.
(He only cross-classed to get cure serious wounds.)

1) Stone Bear rage is felt way overpowered... Between the Genasi resists/racial abilities and the Stone Bear resists he was able to have 22 resist all for multiple turns in a row. Added with the Healing from Both classes, barbarian and cleric and the temporary hp the Barbarian class is so fond of- he was able to (at level 11) take out 6 lv 14 elites and kill the lv 16 wizard NPC the DM had planned for him to save.

All in all he resisted over 400 dmg in the one encounter and healed over 150 dmg with who knows how many temporary hit points thrown into the pot.

If anyone would like a copy of the build so they can play test it let me know, but it feels ungodly overpowered. 

Let me propose a scenario to you. You have a random character capable of dealing 40... dmg per hit and having 100 hp. They start an encounter, the barbarian charged in first attacking with stone bear rage and goes into his rage. You take 3[w]+str lets say the weapon was a falchion (2d4) and does about 20 dmg + 8 elemental from his genasi form. You attack back and do 40 - 12: 28... So far you have both broken even. He attacks back with recouperating strike, 1[w] + d6 + str and deals 15 dmg + 8 elemental while giving himself 13 temporary hp. You attack 40 - 12 - 13: 15 dmg, you are slowly falling behind. Repeat the sequence X2 - you are so far 24 hp behind and the barbarian has only been using at will powers after the rage. Put all the healing this barbarian has built into his class and you are going to loose, unless you have a build that can regularly deal about 50 dmg per hit at level 11...


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## Herschel (Nov 9, 2008)

MadLordOfMilk said:


> Ya know, it seems (at least in my experience) that at least one character experiences that every session. That is, being the guy who gets knocked unconscious, healed, knocked unconscious, healed, knocked unconscious, etc ad infinitum.





QFT. This has been my experience in many battles too.


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## pukunui (Nov 9, 2008)

rowport said:


> I found myself wondering whether there is a 4e version of a wider critical threat range like the 3e falchion or scimitar-- that would be really great for a Barbarian.



Check out the epic level weapon mastery feats. I think there may be the odd power that increases your threat range too but I'm not 100% sure.



> * I like the Skill choices, but kind of regret the reduction to only three trained Skills.  I preferred the 3e model here.  But, I like Skills.



I like skills too. I think barbarians should get one static skill (either Endurance or Nature) plus 3 more.



> That's it!  I will update again after playing more.  I plan to take the full series of armor proficiency feats, chainmail, scale, and plate.  It seems boring to do that, but the higher AC should help quite a bit, more than extra hit points in my opinion.



It seems like quite a few people are doing that, but if you ask me ... a plate armor-wearing barbarian just doesn't seem right. Barbarians should be able to wear just leather or hide without being penalized for it. That fits the archetype better. How many barbarians in full plate do we see in fantasy literature? How many barbarians in chain armor, even? Most of them wear very little, if anything. Barbs should definitely get to add either STR, CON or CHA to their AC so they don't have to take heavy armor feats. Either that or some sort of built-in hide optimization or something. Part of the problem is that DEX and INT are useless for barbs, but another part is the gap between the AC bonus provided by hide and chain.


p.s. No one wants to help me decide on _avalanche strike_ v. _great cleave_ and _blade sweep_ v. _hammer fall_?


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## James McMurray (Nov 9, 2008)

pukunui said:


> It seems like quite a few people are doing that, but if you ask me ... a plate armor-wearing barbarian just doesn't seem right. Barbarians should be able to wear just leather or hide without being penalized for it. That fits the archetype better. How many barbarians in full plate do we see in fantasy literature? How many barbarians in chain armor, even? Most of them wear very little, if anything. Barbs should definitely get to add either STR, CON or CHA to their AC so they don't have to take heavy armor feats. Either that or some sort of built-in hide optimization or something. Part of the problem is that DEX and INT are useless for barbs, but another part is the gap between the AC bonus provided by hide and chain.




If you replace the word Barbarian with Enraged Striker, does that help? Dwarven Battleragers are a fairly common "barbariab" archetype that wear plate.



> p.s. No one wants to help me decide on _avalanche strike_ v. _great cleave_ and _blade sweep_ v. _hammer fall_?




Definitely Great Cleave. It gives you more opportunities to roll a critical, and the barbarian is fairly squishy until later in his career, so giving everyone +4 to hit is an invitation to unconsciousness.

I'd go with Blade Sweep. It's a sure fire minion slayer.


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## rowport (Nov 9, 2008)

James McMurray said:


> If you replace the word Barbarian with Enraged Striker, does that help? Dwarven Battleragers are a fairly common "barbariab" archetype that wear plate...




James-

That is precisely the flavor that I was going for with my character.  He is much less Conan, and much more Pwent (from the RA Salvatore books).

Nevertheless, I take pukunui's point about the "feel" of the Barbarian wearing armor.  It is fine for the class to work with the "Dwarven Battlerager" style, but taking all the armor proficiencies to make it viable feels like a kludge.  I certainly think my default mental image of "barbarian" does not evoke plate mail!


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## WalterKovacs (Nov 9, 2008)

sroy2: How are you calculating the resistances?

Stone bear gives 3 + Con mod. At level 11, best case is going to be a +4 Con mod, so that would be resist 7 max, and at that point you are hurting your STR to get more con.

Resistance does not stack with other resistances ... so you'd get either 7 or 10 depending on the type of damage being dealt. 

I'm assuming you are using some feats to increase your resistances, but outside those that explicitly increase your resistances, they do not stack with each other.

Also I'm wondering where the +8 from elemental form comes from. There is a power that gives +2 for fire and +2 for lightning and I could see you getting +4 by dual manifesting those with your paragon path, but I'm not sure where the rest is coming from. 

Also, your 13 temp HP seems high. You'd only be getting 9 temp HP. It's 5 + con modifier while raging, and I'm pretty sure your con mod isn't +8. It you killed someone outright, you'd be getting 10 + con mod temp HP (which also doesn't stack) because of the feral might/bloodrage vigor ... but the recuperating strike doesn't scale up in the same way.

I'd like to see the build, but some of the unbalancing effects seem a little ... off.


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## pukunui (Nov 9, 2008)

James McMurray said:


> If you replace the word Barbarian with Enraged Striker, does that help? Dwarven Battleragers are a fairly common "barbariab" archetype that wear plate.



Definitely. In that particular instance, I don't have an issue with it. That being said, I think that a dwarven battlerager "build" would be easier to making using the previous edition of D&D, where taking a level of fighter would grant you proficiency in plate armor automatically. No need to burn lots of feats getting plate armor. I suppose the other option would be to start as fighter and multiclass as barbarian in 4e, but obviously that is not an option until we get the barbarian multiclass feat.



> Definitely Great Cleave. It gives you more opportunities to roll a critical, and the barbarian is fairly squishy until later in his career, so giving everyone +4 to hit is an invitation to unconsciousness.
> 
> I'd go with Blade Sweep. It's a sure fire minion slayer.



Thanks. Those are the two I've written down at the moment, and while I'm not too keen on avalanche strike, hammer fall is definitely tempting ...



rowport said:


> That is precisely the flavor that I was going for with my character.  He is much less Conan, and much more Pwent (from the RA Salvatore books).



I'm going for more of a Conan style character myself but Pwent is good. See above re: my musings about making a dwarven battlerager vs a lightly-armored/unarmored rager.



> Nevertheless, I take pukunui's point about the "feel" of the Barbarian wearing armor.  It is fine for the class to work with the "Dwarven Battlerager" style, but taking all the armor proficiencies to make it viable feels like a kludge.  I certainly think my default mental image of "barbarian" does not evoke plate mail!



My sentiments exactly.


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## Victim (Nov 10, 2008)

But Conan has worn plate armor too.


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## pukunui (Nov 10, 2008)

Victim said:


> But Conan has worn plate armor too.



Yes but did he wear plate when he was acting as a barbarian? I've just started reading _The Complete Chronicles of Conan_ and I get the impression that he only wore heavy armor in his role as king of a 'medieval' realm. Most of the time he doesn't seem to wear any armor at all. In fact, the color illustration at the beginning of the book shows him bare-chested with loose pants and boots.

Furthermore, most of the barbarians depicted in the playtest document are either lightly armored or unarmored as well (eg. the leaping woman - a modified version of which I am using for my PC, incidentally). The only two with any kind of heavy armor - the dragonborn and the human killing the gnoll - only have it piecemeal... which, of course, isn't even an option in 4e (not that it was an option in 3e either).

My point is that not only is the "classic" barbarian depicted as lightly/unarmored, but so too are the barbarians WotC is showing us in their very own playtest document ... yet this sort of look & feel is not a very plausible option with the mechanics as they are now. The barbarians shown in the playtest document are just asking to get killed. There's nothing in the mechanics that suggests you can play an unarmored Conan-style barbarian and expect to survive for very long.


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## WalterKovacs (Nov 10, 2008)

pukunui said:


> Yes but not on a regular basis and not as a barbarian (he did it in his role as king of a "medieval" realm ... I'm just reading the _Complete Chronicles of Conan_ for the first time now).
> 
> How about this: if you look at all the pictures of barbarians provided in the barbarian playtest document, most of them are very lightly armored if not _unarmored_ ... like the leaping woman (a modified version of which I am using for my PC). The only one who appears to be wearing heavy armor is the dragonborn, and even his armor appears to be somewhat piecemeal (which, of course, is not an option in 4e - not that it was an option in 3e either).
> 
> So here they are showing us a whole lot of lightly armored/unarmored barbarians and yet, going by the mechanics, all of them are asking to be killed because they can't avoid taking hits very well.




(A) Asking to be hit = being a good defender

(B) Their main defensive/stay alive power is temp hit points and resistances

The barbarians AC early on in hide is going to be comparable to a leather armorless wizard or melee ranger. A barbarian, especially one that is "iconic" ... shouldn't have GOOD AC. Over time, their AC will be especially bad if they don't get into heavier armor, but certain masterwork armors are a bit different than just metal stuff. A barbarian skinning a dragon and using his scales to make some armor doesn't seem that far fetched.

Ultimately, while the main stats are STR, CON and CHA ... the last two are both build dependent. In most cases a character will either be STR, CON and DEX or STR, CHA and DEX ... since dex helps your reflex, initiative and light armor AC.


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## DandD (Nov 10, 2008)

Conan doesn't wear armour if he's a pirate, raiding the black coast, and sailing on a ship, an aquilonian ranger, who slays picts and prowls in the woods without making noises, a defeated mercenary, who's looking for water, or a thief stealing jewels from ivory towers with alien elephants, where he needs to be able to climb. He wore armor when he jumped to the merchant ship fleeing from the local authorities, before massacring Belith's band of black pirates thanks to his armour. He also wore armor when he wanted to rape the daughter of an ice giant, which was his very early years as a cimmerian warrior. 
In fact, you could say that he never was a barbarian defined by D&D. The Conan Archetypre wore plate armour, that's a fact that can never be changed. 
Even as a king, people called him a barbarian (which was meant as an insult, not as a class feature  ), and he raged and slayed and maimed everybody on the battlefield, be it The Scarlet Citadel, or the novel version of this story, The Hour Of The Dragon. 

As regarding the 4th edition of the Barbarian, I would really like that they could at least were chain-mail. And that the name be changed to Berserker, dammit.


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## pukunui (Nov 10, 2008)

DandD said:


> And that the name be changed to Berserker, dammit.



I'll second that.


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## Mad Hamish (Nov 10, 2008)

the8bitdeity said:


> Also, I noticed the wording of pressing strike is that you shift 2 squares, not up to. Does that mean you HAVE to shift two squares before the attack? That could be an interesting limitation.




How often would it actually restrict you?

Shifts don't have to be in a straight line after all...


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## Rechan (Nov 10, 2008)

A player ran a barbarian tonight. A warforged barbarian. 

In one fight, he critted. 4. Rounds. In. A. Row. (I watched him roll them).

One crit was with Avalanche Strike. With an executioner's ax. A magical one. 

He did 64 points of damage, and killed a Magma Claw on the first hit.


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## RefinedBean (Nov 10, 2008)

Rechan said:


> A player ran a barbarian tonight. A warforged barbarian.
> 
> In one fight, he critted. 4. Rounds. In. A. Row. (I watched him roll them).
> 
> ...




Ha!  Yeah, barbarians tend to do that.  Still, though, a rogue critting 4 roungds in a row would be just as nasty.


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## DracoSuave (Nov 10, 2008)

Mad Hamish said:


> How often would it actually restrict you?
> 
> Shifts don't have to be in a straight line after all...




Nor do shifts have to be for the full amount indicated.  All movement permits not using the full movement be it a shift, a slide, or a teleport.


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## Orcus Porkus (Nov 10, 2008)

*Eladrin Barbarian playtest experience*



DracoSuave said:


> Nor do shifts have to be for the full amount indicated.  All movement permits not using the full movement be it a shift, a slide, or a teleport.




Just playtested my Eladrin Barbarian yesterday.
Using greatspear with reach, howling strike whenever possible, and pressing strike.
He killed a lot, rolled lots of crits, and got swift charge every encounter.
Because of his free attacks resulting from crits and kills, having more attack rolls and hitting, is more important than anything else. All optimization should go to increasing the number of rolls.
- use Warlord's commander's strike
- use bestial hide (free attack after a charge) if you don't like Veteran's armor
- let other characters delay initiative when you have a good chance to kill
- make sure to have Strength 18 or better, invest on AC and HP only if you don't use reach weapons
- optimize charging (boots of adept charging, charge into combat advantage
- great cleave better than avalanche strike because of the increased kill and crit opportunities, although avalanche strike is tactically better for a reach weapon
- beginning at level 5, you have 2 dailies (rage). Patiently wait for the boss fight. Use Veteran's armor, go into rage with 3(W), follow up with wasting the 2nd daily on rage strike 4(W), spend an action point to get the daily back, waste it on Rage Strike 4(W) again. If you hit all three times, you deal 11(W)+3xSTR, possibly one extra (W) if you use Frost Wolf Rage and the monster is stupid enough to attack you. For each attack during the rage strike sequence, it gets 3+CON damage from Frost Wolf. Since Rage attacks deal half damage on a miss, you are looking at something like *6(W)+? guaranteed damage* in the first three rounds, with possible free attacks from Rampage and Swift Charge. Throw in Commander's Strike etc., and that elite monster is dead before it knows what happened.


My feedback on the rules:

- Rage attacks should be allowed to be used during a charge. It kind of sucked to not be able to launch into battle with a raging charge. You need to use howling strike first, and then launch rage in the 2nd round
- If swift charge is not possible because there is not enough room to charge, or no enemies nearby, you should get either a free attack or a free move action + charge instead.
- If you kill AND crit at the same time (happens a lot), the free actions you get should stack, meaning you get the free basic melee attack from the crit, and also a swift charge from the kill.


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## Drakhar (Nov 10, 2008)

Orcus Porkus said:


> - If you kill AND crit at the same time (happens a lot), the free actions you get should stack, meaning you get the free basic melee attack from the crit, and also a swift charge from the kill.




I'm pretty sure they do stack as they both have triggering effects happening at the same time you get to choose what order they trigger in. Personally I'm really enjoying my Genasi Barbarian that I'm working on focusing on crits and charges, as well as using a high crit weapon (fullblade in this case) I'm not focusing too much on con (which is still an 18 but still, we rolled our stats) Boots of Adept charging are extremely good to have when you're not raging as it helps you avoid OA's when you charge around the battlefield. We also have an ongoing joke/opening tactic of my barb having a readied action to charge the first enemy he can, oddly enough resulting in a crit kill right off the bat.


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## Orcus Porkus (Nov 10, 2008)

Drakhar said:


> I'm pretty sure they do stack as they both have triggering effects happening at the same time you get to choose what order they trigger in. Personally I'm really enjoying my Genasi Barbarian that I'm working on focusing on crits and charges, as well as using a high crit weapon (fullblade in this case) I'm not focusing too much on con (which is still an 18 but still, we rolled our stats) Boots of Adept charging are extremely good to have when you're not raging as it helps you avoid OA's when you charge around the battlefield. We also have an ongoing joke/opening tactic of my barb having a readied action to charge the first enemy he can, oddly enough resulting in a crit kill right off the bat.




yeah our group looked at the stacking of crit/kill free attacks, and ruled it's possible to do both. They are both free actions, and no rules says you can't have 2 free actions. Too bad rampage is limited to only one attack per round  I usually start the encounter with charging into a minion, then swift charge into the next, score a crit, kill another one - this could go on forever


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## Mengu (Nov 10, 2008)

Initially I was thinking barbarians could do with a good boost to their AC, and gave them the higher of their Con/Cha bonus to add to AC instead of Dex/Int when in light armor. After seeing an 18 Con Barbarian in action for a while, I changed my mind, and while I still think they need an AC boost, I think +1 AC per tier should do the trick.

This still gives them insentive to keep a decent Dexterity which is very helpful for their reflex defense. And I still think it's important to give them +1 Fortitude and +1 Reflex as class bonuses, instead of +2 Fortitude.


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## amysrevenge (Nov 10, 2008)

Mengu said:


> This still gives them insentive to keep a decent Dexterity which is very helpful for their reflex defense. And I still think it's important to give them +1 Fortitude and +1 Reflex as class bonuses, instead of +2 Fortitude.




I started mine with a 14 Dex because Heavy Blade Mastery is too good to pass up.  As it is, I'll still have to "waste" one of my level-up points on Dex to get to 17 by Epic.  This means that in Hide he's only one point behind Chainmail, and still has full Speed.


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## WalterKovacs (Nov 10, 2008)

amysrevenge said:


> I started mine with a 14 Dex because Heavy Blade Mastery is too good to pass up. As it is, I'll still have to "waste" one of my level-up points on Dex to get to 17 by Epic. This means that in Hide he's only one point behind Chainmail, and still has full Speed.




Once armor hits +4, the master work comparison would be +3 (dex) +4 (mw hide) + 4 (enhance) vs. +9 (mw chain) + 4 (enhance) is 11 vs 13 ... which is a difference of two. The masterwork element increases the gap between light armor and heavy armor, since the intent is for the masterwork property to keep in sync with light armor users upping their dex/int at nearly every opportunity.


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## Mengu (Nov 10, 2008)

WalterKovacs said:


> Once armor hits +4, the master work comparison would be +3 (dex) +4 (mw hide) + 4 (enhance) vs. +9 (mw chain) + 4 (enhance) is 11 vs 13 ... which is a difference of two. The masterwork element increases the gap between light armor and heavy armor, since the intent is for the masterwork property to keep in sync with light armor users upping their dex/int at nearly every opportunity.




That's why I'm currently trying out a +1 per tier, since the Barbarian won't get to put points into dexterity as often as the other light armored folk like rogue, ranger, warlock, wizard, tactical warlord, and swordmage.


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