# Two-handed longsword vs. greatsword?



## Jeff Wilder (Jun 29, 2009)

I'm sure it's been asked before, but ...

Am I missing something in my read that a longsword used two-handed does the same average damage as a greatsword used two-handed?  (Both do 5.4 average damage.)

If I'm not missing something, that seems very odd, given that a longsword is lighter and less expensive, and thus clearly superior, barring greatsword-specific powers.

While I'm at it, is it correct that a scimitar is a clearly superior weapon to a longsword, in the hands of a small PC?  I.e., it can be used one-handed, for full damage, and keeps the high crit property?

I'm really not happy about the way 4E handles weapons.


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## Regicide (Jun 29, 2009)

Jeff Wilder said:


> Am I missing something in my read that a longsword used two-handed does the same average damage as a greatsword used two-handed?  (Both do 5.4 average damage.)




  Only on 1W attacks.  2W, 3W etc. attacks the great sword is doing slightly more damage.



Jeff Wilder said:


> While I'm at it, is it correct that a scimitar is a clearly superior weapon to a longsword, in the hands of a small PC?  I.e., it can be used one-handed, for full damage, and keeps the high crit property?




  I think that's correct.



Jeff Wilder said:


> I'm really not happy about the way 4E handles weapons.




  There is certainly room for improvement.


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## Stalker0 (Jun 29, 2009)

1) The longsword doesn't do as much damage on a crit (9 damage vs 10 damage)

2) On higher [W] powers the greatsword does more. For 3[w] damage, a longsword does average 14.5 vs greatsword's 16.5.

3) I believe the strict RAW says a longsword in two hands doesn't count as a two handed weapon for purposes of feats, powers, and other effects. Personally I think that's a silly distinction though.


So yes there are differences, the ultimate question of course is whether the difference is enough. In my opinion the piddly amount of extra cost and weight for a greatsword vs a longsword is worth the little bit of extra damage I get.

Now the real question is whether a greatsword compares to a longsword in one hand and a shield. In that case, I think the longsword completely wins. For hammers and axes, two handed can be useful...but the greatsword doesn't have enough bang for the buck in the two handed department imo.


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## Obryn (Jun 29, 2009)

I think the greatsword is a little under-powered.  If you add the High Crit property to it, it's just about right.  Then, it lines up better with the other two-handed weapons; gets a bit of a kick above longswords & bastard swords used two-handed; and shows a more logical progression to the two-handed Fullblade.  Nevertheless, when you're looking at multiple-[W] attacks, it has its place.

Personally, for any character using two-handed weapons, I recommend Superior Weapon Proficiency.  Fullblades, Mordenkrads, and Execution Axes are all pretty outstanding.  (As an aside, it's less of a clear choice for 1-H weapons, especially at paragon levels, but I have a special place in my heart for Craghammers.  Waraxes and Bastard Swords are a little more questionable, but still worth it if you can spare the feats.)

As for scimitars - They are much better for Small characters, but they only get a +2 proficiency bonus.  This can make the difference between a hit and a miss several times in a session.  (At least, it has in my games.)  I'm okay with it, because I don't think scimitars are balanced against longswords - they're balanced against _shortswords_.  I don't think there's any situation in which high crit is worth a +1 proficiency bonus, if you're comparing longsword to scimitar.

-O


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## keterys (Jun 29, 2009)

If it ever comes up, back of the envelope suggests longsword deals W+W*CritChance/HitChance - 1 less damage per attack* than a greatsword.

So 1W, 50% hit chance and 5% crit chance it deals .1 less... 2W 1.2, 3W 2.3, etc.

At epic, if your average attack ends up being 4W with a 10% chance to crit and 50% chance to hit, that's 3.8 less damage per hit. That's pretty notable.


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## FrozenChrono (Jun 30, 2009)

There are plenty of issues with weapon use and design in 4E. Long Swords vs. Great Swords are not one of them. Anyone using a two hander will have plenty of multi [W] powers to utilize the Great Sword, which also do higher crit damage than a long sword.

Just about anyone using a two-hander will be best served by picking up a superior weapon prof anyway.


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