# OOC Twisted Infinity



## Wrahn (Aug 18, 2004)

Welcome to the New and Improved OOC thread

This is an epic game, with the following cast:

Lichtenhart
Nac Mac Feegle
Pyrex
Ferrix
Ashy
Someone

Our illustrious alternates are:

Thels
Zerth
Serpenteye
Happy Funball
OneAboveAll

With character creation rules being:

Normal starting equipment for a 20th level character. When building equipment with multiple effects, the highest cost ability is normal, the subsequent abilities costs is multiplied by 1.5. Standard DMG abilities, if you are really interested in something from another source, we can talk.

35 standard point buy for attributes (all stats start at 8 to buy a point of attribute from 9-14 cost 1, from 15-16 cost 2 and 17-18 cost 3. So a 12 would cost 4 and a 15 would cost 8).

The prestige classes in the DMG are fine, beyond that I can not promise anything, but if it interests you, shoot it past me and we will talk. Feats are okay from the Player Handbook, beyond that, again, we will talk. Lastly Races again from the Players Handbook, and like the other stuff if you are interested in something else, we can talk about it.

Permanent Int bonuses (such as Inherent bonuses and level bonuses) retroactively add skill points (but not languages). Bonuses from items or spells do not add skill points retroactively or otherwise.

Hit points are max at first and 75% there after.

The In Character thread can be found here.

The Rogues Gallery can be found here.


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## Wrahn (Aug 18, 2004)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> Any comments on my three ideas, the one I'd want to play the most is the dwarven iconic. Oh yeah, I dropped the dwarf paragon. It'd be deepwarden, pious templar and hammer of moradin... i wanted one of them at 10 levels so I could progress in epic better. Is that alright?




I don’t have my books with me, but I can’t recall having heard of any of those classes before.  Can you tell me what source you are drawing those from.  I am also assuming that there is no epic progression for them and I would need to come up with something (which shouldn’t be a problem).

If you mean something specific about an iconic Dwarf, I am also unfamiliar with that, so I would need your source for that as well.


I should note that I am going to try and set a deadline for character creation and starting the game.  Currently I am thinking August 30 or not next Monday but the Monday after that.  Does that give you all enough time?


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## Ashy (Aug 18, 2004)

Wrahn,

I don't know if you are still checking the old thread, but Ferrix and I are working together in tying our characters/characters' backgrounds together.  Hope that is okay!


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## Wrahn (Aug 18, 2004)

Ashy said:
			
		

> Wrahn,
> 
> I don't know if you are still checking the old thread, but Ferrix and I are working together in tying our characters/characters' backgrounds together.  Hope that is okay!




Yes I am, and that is great by me.


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## Ashy (Aug 18, 2004)

Great!


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## Brother Shatterstone (Aug 18, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Yes I am, and that is great by me.



Wrahn, Asly, and Ferrix: Is their any reason to have two OOC threads?    If you two can move over to this one I would be a much happier bugbear. 

(If you need it for a post or two that cool for the background stuff but lets try to be all in the new thread by tommarow morning.)

Thanks,
BS
PbP moderator


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## Someone (Aug 18, 2004)

Ashy said:
			
		

> Wrahn,
> 
> I don't know if you are still checking the old thread, but Ferrix and I are working together in tying our characters/characters' backgrounds together.  Hope that is okay!




If you can think on a way to fit there a sorcerer, that would be great   

Anyway, my character is half done and I´ll post him soon. Definitely a Sorcere 15/Archmage 5. I have a couple questions: is it possible to pick Spell Power more than once? Also, for a character of so high level, I´m thinking that an age of at least 40 would be more appropiate, though that means stat bonuses and penalties that I prefer not to take, for various reasons. If you like, I can ignore them or make a younger character.


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## Wrahn (Aug 18, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Wrahn, Asly, and Ferrix: Is their any reason to have two OOC threads?    If you two can move over to this one I would be a much happier bugbear.
> 
> (If you need it for a post or two that cool for the background stuff but lets try to be all in the new thread by tommarow morning.)
> 
> ...





For me to have more control over the thread, plus there is a request up in the other thread for another game master and another epic game, which I wouldn't be running, so I didn't think it appropriate for us to post all our game info in potentially someone elses thread.

But yes, my intention is for everyone to post here, I am just watching the thread to make sure that we don't leave people behind.






			
				Someone said:
			
		

> Anyway, my character is half done and I´ll post him soon. Definitely a Sorcere 15/Archmage 5. I have a couple questions: is it possible to pick Spell Power more than once? Also, for a character of so high level, I´m thinking that an age of at least 40 would be more appropiate, though that means stat bonuses and penalties that I prefer not to take, for various reasons. If you like, I can ignore them or make a younger character.




Age is fine (with all modifiers there of) and makes sense.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Aug 18, 2004)

I played a polymorph happy wizard once, and my DM ruled that to change into something you had to make an appropriate knowledge check DC 10+HD of creature.

Nature: Animals, Plants, Fey, Giants, Humanoids
Arcana: Magical Beasts, Constructs, Dragons
The Planes: Outsiders, Elementals
Religion: Undead
Dungeoneering: Oozes, Aberrations, Vermin

If that works for you, I'll create the character.  If you'd prefer that I not do that, I can think of MANY other concepts (epic is fun that way).


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## Wrahn (Aug 18, 2004)

Nac Mac Feegle said:
			
		

> I played a polymorph happy wizard once, and my DM ruled that to change into something you had to make an appropriate knowledge check DC 10+HD of creature.
> 
> Nature: Animals, Plants, Fey, Giants, Humanoids
> Arcana: Magical Beasts, Constructs, Dragons
> ...




That works for me.  I will play around a little with the Shifter's skills to give you those KS as class skills (I will probably remove one or two to compensate, but I don't have my books here, I will post later).


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## Ferrix (Aug 18, 2004)

Didn't see this one until today.

I listed the sources for the classes, and by iconic dwarf, I mean a dwarf who is a classic picture of a dwarf, slightly gruff, defender and champion of his people.  Able to survive on his own, able to take a blow and able to deal one.  It's not a specific thing.  Deepwarden is from the new Races of Stone, Pious Templar is from Complete Divine and Hammer of Moradin is from Players Guide to Faerun.  There's a couple feats from races of stone that I'd want to use also that improve his skill with heavy armor.  Also I hoped to take the wild talent feat from XPH so I could gain access to a psionic feat is that okay?

I'd have maxed out hammer of moradin to 10 levels, so that is the epic progression I'd want to be following probably.

I can e-mail you the abilities for the three classes if you want so you can look 'em over if you want.  The Deepwarden is also the example PrC on the WotC website for the Races of Stone accessory.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Aug 18, 2004)

Two quick questions:  First is, can that check be a free action (IE just seeing if I know it, not taking a couple of minutes to ponder it), and second, is it possible that I could take 10 on those checks.


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## Ashy (Aug 18, 2004)

BS, I'm here to stay now - sorry for any probs.  

Wrahn and Ferrix - I've got a cool idea, but it involves a race that I wrote for _Mysteries of Arena_ (first release tomorrw at Gen Con!) - I'd be happy to email it over and it would work really well with what Ferrix is playing, methinks...


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## Ferrix (Aug 18, 2004)

Ashy said:
			
		

> BS, I'm here to stay now - sorry for any probs.
> 
> Wrahn and Ferrix - I've got a cool idea, but it involves a race that I wrote for _Mysteries of Arena_ (first release tomorrw at Gen Con!) - I'd be happy to email it over and it would work really well with what Ferrix is playing, methinks...




I saw this post and thought I'm going to get an e-mail from ashy, low and behold ;-)


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## Wrahn (Aug 18, 2004)

Nac Mac Feegle said:
			
		

> Two quick questions: First is, can that check be a free action (IE just seeing if I know it, not taking a couple of minutes to ponder it), and second, is it possible that I could take 10 on those checks.




As a free action is fine, but I think taking a 10 is probably not.  The roll represents the chance for you to understand something well enough to shape shift into it.  So since you can't know everything about everything under a particular hit dice, I think a random chance is appropriate.



			
				Ashy said:
			
		

> Wrahn and Ferrix - I've got a cool idea, but it involves a race that I wrote for Mysteries of Arena (first release tomorrw at Gen Con!) - I'd be happy to email it over and it would work really well with what Ferrix is playing, methinks...




email away Wrahnn(at)yahoo(dot)com


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Aug 18, 2004)

Oh, one other thing I forgot to ask.

What are your feelings about vow of poverty.  I know some DMs don't allow it, so I'd like to check in as to its availability.

And for those who are working on backgrounds, I'd love to try to work my character in so we have a party that knows everyone.  My e-mail is priestofchaos1@yahoo.com , so I'd love to be able to work out a related bg.


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## Wrahn (Aug 18, 2004)

Nac Mac Feegle said:
			
		

> Oh, one other thing I forgot to ask.
> 
> What are your feelings about vow of poverty. I know some DMs don't allow it, so I'd like to check in as to its availability.




I am going to have to say no at this point to the vow of poverty.  The reason is the lack of epic progression.  Even extrapolating out the progression, I feel it would be weak in comparison to what happens at epic levels.  While it may not be weak for you, but for other equipment dependent characters it can become an issue.

So to avoid what could be a large headache for me to try and balance it versus what I have seen at epic levels, I am going to "nip it in the bud" and say no.


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## Ashy (Aug 18, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> email away Wrahnn(at)yahoo(dot)com




email sent.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Aug 18, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> For me to have more control over the thread, plus there is a request up in the other thread for another game master and another epic game, which I wouldn't be running, so I didn't think it appropriate for us to post all our game info in potentially someone elses thread.




No that's what I was wanting, for you guys to post here, this thread is all nice and uniform with the rest of them.    I just didn't realize someone else was still looking for a game...  I'll edit the subject of the other one to reflect its need.



			
				Ashy said:
			
		

> BS, I'm here to stay now - sorry for any probs.



Nonsense, you've never been a problem.


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## Someone (Aug 18, 2004)

NAME:  Tares Hehrog, aka the Archsorcerer, supreme warlock, and other names, most of them unpleasant.

Race: Human
Class:  Sorcerer 15/archmage 5
Level: 20
Alignment: LN
Experience: 209999
Description: Tall and imposing, though not physically powerful. Grey is starting to dot his brown hair and beard, both kept short. His face is square and regular, but not exactly attractive. Tares presence is almost overwhelming; like if they were in a temple, lesser people tend to whisper when he´s in the same room.

AGE: 43
HGT: 6´2´´
WGT: 170 lb
SEX: Male

………..Total……Point buy…..Level advancement…..Inherent bonuses…Magic items
STR:..…10(+0)..….10(2)	     	
DEX:….16(+3)…...10(2)………………………………………………..............………...+6
CON:….17(+3)…...11(3)…………………………………………….…………................+6
INT:…...16(+3)…..14(6)........................................+2
WIS:…..14(+2).…..14(6)
CHA:…..34(+12)…18(16)………….+5…………………......…..+5.....………………..+6

AC: 18=10+5 (armor, robe of the archmagi) +3 (Dex)

Speed 30 feet.

HP:  4+(3x19)+60=121

Saves: 
.........Total.....Class......Ability......Magic   
Fort.....+13.......+6.........+3..........+4
Ref......+13.......+6.........+3..........+4
Will......+19......+13........+2..........+4

Skills: [Total ranks 137]

Concentration +26=18 sorcerer ranks + 5 archmage ranks + 3(Con)
Spellcraft +31=18 sorcerer ranks +5 archmage ranks +3 (int) + 3 (feat) +2 (Kn arcana sinergy)
Knowledge(arcana) +26=18 sorcerer ranks +5 archmage ranks +3 (Int)
Knowledge (the planes) +22=9 sorcerer cross-class ranks +10 archmage ranks +3 (Int)
Knowledge (nature) +17=9 sorcerer cross-class ranks  +3 (Int)
Knowledge (dungeoneering) +17=9 sorcerer cross-class ranks +5 archmage ranks +3 (Int)

Feats:

Spell focus-Transmutation
Spell focus-Evocation
Eschew materials
Skill focus-Spellcraft
Empower spell
Spell penetration
Twin spell
Silent Spell

Languages: Common, Draconic, Celestial

Initiative: +3
Attack: Melee +9/+4, ranged +12/+7 (no weapons)

Special abilities:
High arcana: Mastery of Shaping, Mastery of Elements, Mastery of Counterspells, Spell Power x2
Spell resistance 18 (robe)

Spells: Caster level 22 (+26 to beat spell resistance) Spells/day:  6/9/9/9/9/6/7/7/7/7. Save DC 22+spell level.

0-Read magic, Detect magic, Prestidigitation, Light, Arcane mark, Message, Mage hand, Open/close, Ray of frost.
1-Magic Missile, Protection from Evil, Feather Fall, Ray of Enfeeblement, Shield.
2-See Invisibility, Scorching Ray, Detect Thoughts, Darkvision, Knock.
3-Arcane Sight, Fireball, Fly, Protection from Energy.
4-Enervation, Greater Invisibility, Stoneskin, Dimensional Anchor.
5-Telekinesis, Cone of Cold, Sending, Wall of Force.
6-Greater Dispel Magic, Analyze Dweomer, Disintegrate.
7-Forcecage, Greater Teleport, Greater Scrying. 
8-Polymorph Any Object, Mind Blank, Greater Prying Eyes.
9-Shapechange, Gate, Meteor Swarm. 

Equipment:

Cloak of charisma +6   36k
Amulet of health +6   36k
Robe of the archmagi (grey) 75 k
Gloves of Dexterity +6 36k
Tome of leadership +5 (used) 137,5 k
Tome of understanding +2 (used) 55 k
Ring of sustenance 2,2 k
Ring of Freedom of movement 40 k
Staff of illusion (25 charges) 32,5 k
Portable hole 20k
Mirror of mental prowess 200k

Scrolls of: Wish (28825 gp) True seeing (1900) Vision (3025). Wand of Rope Trick (4500)

Material components for Stoneskin (20 uses, 5000 gp) and Forcecage (10 uses, 15000 gp), Scrying focus (1000), Shapechange focus (1500), Analyze Dweomer focus (1500)

+-27500 gp in spare cash.

--------------------------------------

Third son of a small merchant, Tares grew in an evironment of discipline and attention to detail. His grandfather was nothing more than a farmer that through hard labor saved some money. His father took that money and multiplied it with nothing more than common sense, countless hours of work and little sleep. Though –almost- all the family were similarly industrious, Tares was the most similar to his father.

When he was 13 he started to show hints of magical aptitude. Since his older brothers could manage the familiar business, Tares´ father was happy to send his son into apprenticeship, thinking that a wizard in the family could be the best thing that could happen to them. But he was rejected in all of the wizard towers, magical academies and schools of spellcraft. “The boy is smart, but not enough to train him for free” they said. “And you don´t have the money. We´re sorry.” Tares didn´t gave up.

He worked hard and used every bit of money to buy book of magic or access to magical libraries. Since he had zero magical training, starting was very hard, but finally he grasped the basics and started practicing basic cantrips at night. His method was hard, slow, tiring and time-consuming, but at the end effective: practice the same spell once and again, until he could do that in a moments thought and ultimately understood the spell´s inner workings. 

His knowledge expanded, slow but steady. The wizards continued rejecting him, as a lucky amateur; it was time to look for new sources of money, since he needed more expensive scrolls and exotic works of magic theory. He started a career as an adventurer; explored the Glittering Caves looking for Jull Gruss´ spellbook, lost ten years before. Helped the shining company of Cimulas in their assault of the Granite keep, overrun by fiendish orcs, and soon after served as a mercenary with the army of the evil god Darmek. He grew in power, and always clashed with the wizard community´s contempt first, then surprise, then, in some cases, anger and fear, respect and fear in others, and in few wizards, admiration and fear.

One of his worst enemies was Axiluu the Golden, famed diviner and item crafter, owner of the fabled Mirror of the Eagle´s Eye and counsellor of King Therdes of Camecia. He attacked Tares –verbally- at the slightest occasion, criticizing (sp?) him as a purely empirical spellcaster that didn´t deserved the name of “mage”, that his intelligence was inferior, and that he could not stand in a battle against a real wizard. Finally, Axiluu challenged Tares. 

Tares immediately teleported and blasted the old thing into a handful of dust. 

Slightly later he learned that the rules of a Wizard Battle were slightly different of what he though they were, and involved carefully timing of preparatory spells and fighting in a previously appointed place to avoid  killing innocents. To wich the sorcerer answered that he couldn´t care less since that was the way he was used to fight, –wich was true- that he finally had surpassed them in power and had no interest to him –true again- and that if they wanted to repeat the experience, he would be glad, specially now that he was the Mirror´s new owner. 

Tares continues restlessly working, 14 hours a day, every day, from his private tower at King Therdes of Camecia´s castle, as the new magical advisor. With his new position´s resources and the use of the Mirror, he´s dicovered countless arcane secrets and long forgotten bits of magical lore that few wizards ever have heard of. With that knowledge, there are few that could match him.


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## Ashy (Aug 18, 2004)

Groovay


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## Ashy (Aug 18, 2004)

Wrahn,

Ferrix and I have a really sweat idea cooked up for the way our characters are connected.  I think that you'll really like it.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Aug 18, 2004)

Well, I'll make one quick effort to persuade you and say that I think it'd be fine for me just extrapolating and maybe switching the feats every two levels to epic feats every three levels and giving epic to beat DR

I guess the reason for this is that equipment is always a little wierd for a shapechanger and I thought it would make it easier.

So I'm just saying I'd be okay with extrapolating basically I think.


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## Ashy (Aug 18, 2004)

Nac,

Did you want to tie your character in with mine and Ferrix's?  Let me know!


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## Wrahn (Aug 18, 2004)

Ashy said:
			
		

> Wrahn,
> 
> Ferrix and I have a really sweat idea cooked up for the way our characters are connected.  I think that you'll really like it.




Cool, can't wait to see it.

Someone-

Saving DM sanity gains Someone 3 brownie points 

Looks good, a couple of nit picky things

Are you getting a +2 synergy bonus to your diplomacy from 5 ranks in bluff?

Is your character really 8' 2"?


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## Ashy (Aug 18, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Cool, can't wait to see it.




So does that mean my race has a greenlight?  They are good to go?


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Aug 18, 2004)

I'd love to tie in with you guys.

I posted my e-mail adress.


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## Ashy (Aug 18, 2004)

Where?


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## Wrahn (Aug 18, 2004)

Nac Mac Feegle said:
			
		

> Well, I'll make one quick effort to persuade you and say that I think it'd be fine for me just extrapolating and maybe switching the feats every two levels to epic feats every three levels and giving epic to beat DR
> 
> I guess the reason for this is that equipment is always a little wierd for a shapechanger and I thought it would make it easier.
> 
> So I'm just saying I'd be okay with extrapolating basically I think.




I don't think you would have a problem being underpowered with it (quite the opposite in fact), it is someone else that I would worry about.  Because of that I can't make a consistent ruling (without straining my mind, which results in dangerous cranky DMs  ) so I am afraid my ruling stands.

As far as Shapechanging and equipment goes, with the exception of a few special items, if the form you are wearing could normal use an item you are using, then you can use it.  It changes size with you.  If it normally can't than the form you can't either (i.e. no bears wearing rings, but Balors wielding swords is fine)

On a side note:  The stuff you carry around shapeshifted into you uses your base strength (the one of your true form) for purposes of encumbrance.  This usually isn't an issue as long as you don't go overboard.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Aug 18, 2004)

Okay, sounds good.  I should be making less trouble for you, not the other way around.

I think I'll be investing in a lot of collars and anklets and the like .


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## Ferrix (Aug 19, 2004)

Nac Mac Feegle said:
			
		

> Okay, sounds good.  I should be making less trouble for you, not the other way around.
> 
> I think I'll be investing in a lot of collars and anklets and the like .




Necklaces and belts work well too.


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## Ferrix (Aug 19, 2004)

I'm generally assuming that things are a go for my character?


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Aug 19, 2004)

I thought I put my adress in a previous post.  I'll put it here in case I'm wrong.

priestofchaos1(at)yahoo(dot)com

I think it'd be cool to have a game where a lot of the people know each other from before.  It seems like if you have a limited number of epic characters in the world, they might know each other.


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## Pyrex (Aug 19, 2004)

*moves post from other thread*
So far we've got:

Ashy - ranger/paladin/divine
Ferrix - Dwarf / Ftr / Thrower
Someone - Sor/AcM
Nac Mac Feegle - Shifter
TheOneAboveAll - ???

Looks like we're short a Cleric and a Rogue. Rogue could be fun, but I'm worried about the number of high-CR creatures that are immune to Sneak Attack, so that leaves me leaning toward Cleric (mabye Cleric/Heirophant).

Wrahn, what kind of feel are you looking for. A group of classic Do Gooders? Neutral/greedy mercenaries? Evil doers looking to conquer?

If you're looking for Do Gooders, I have a 3.0 cleric that'd be fun to play again. How do you feel about the Radiant Servant of Pelor PrC?


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## Pyrex (Aug 19, 2004)

One more note.  I can post my character early next week, but I'll be out of town and offline from Aug 26 through Sept 9.

If that's going to be a problem I'll step down and let someone else play.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Aug 19, 2004)

Hmm.  I'm thinking that I might drop a few levels of warshaper for Horizon Walker.  I'm still thinking here, but it could be fun.  The concept I have is of someone who takes joy in seeing new places through new eyes and the like.

This isn't fixed by any means, but I'm thinking about it.


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## Happy Funball (Aug 19, 2004)

If there is any extra room in this party, I'd love to get in and annoy Wrahn.


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## Wrahn (Aug 19, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> Wrahn, what kind of feel are you looking for. A group of classic Do Gooders? Neutral/greedy mercenaries? Evil doers looking to conquer?
> 
> If you're looking for Do Gooders, I have a 3.0 cleric that'd be fun to play again. How do you feel about the Radiant Servant of Pelor PrC?




I am always in favor of the Good Guys, it will at least make me feel guilty if I accidently wipe you all out.  That being said, you are free to play what you wish keeping in mind the rest of the party.


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## Wrahn (Aug 19, 2004)

Happy Funball said:
			
		

> If there is any extra room in this party, I'd love to get in and annoy Wrahn.




Heya Hap!

I will put you down as an alternate.

Pyrex,

I am fine with your time limitations, it was put there to keep people from delaying the game endlessly by a lack of presence.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Aug 19, 2004)

I thought of something which seems broken, so I present it to you because I want to know how it'll be handled.

If the shapeshifter can shift at will at 10th level, how does the standard "you heal when you change forms" work?


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## Wrahn (Aug 19, 2004)

Nac Mac Feegle said:
			
		

> I thought of something which seems broken, so I present it to you because I want to know how it'll be handled.
> 
> If the shapeshifter can shift at will at 10th level, how does the standard "you heal when you change forms" work?




Welcome to the joys of shifterhood 

Let's limit it to say, you Shifter level times per day (that is 200 HP worth of shifting at 20 hp increments)


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## Ferrix (Aug 19, 2004)

I'm not really focused on throwing anything... he's more of a melee dwarf.


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## Ashy (Aug 19, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> *moves post from other thread*
> So far we've got:
> 
> Ashy - ranger/paladin/divine




Depending on if my race gets okay'ed or not, I will likely be running a monk/cleric/sacred fist combo.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Aug 19, 2004)

Wrahn, so do you mean I can shift at will, but only heal from that shifter level times per day?


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## Pyrex (Aug 19, 2004)

That was quoted from your first post when you weren't sure what you were going to play. 

Given the lack of a focused divine caster I'll bring in Cleric of Pelor.  Level breakdown will either be Clr 17 / Hei 3 or Clr 7 / RdS 10 / Hei 3 depending on whether or not Wrahn approves Radiant Servant of Pelor PrC (Printed in Dragon or more recently in Complete Divine).

Edit:  My email is Michael_Alex(at)msn(dot)com.  Let me know before you email me so I can add you to my safe list or you'll get spam-blocked.


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## Wrahn (Aug 19, 2004)

Nac Mac Feegle said:
			
		

> Wrahn, so do you mean I can shift at will, but only heal from that shifter level times per day?




Yes, no limit to the times you can shift, but you can only heal on your (shifter level)/day.  Though you can choose when that is.  (if for instance you were down three hitpoint and shifted you would not be forced to take you healing then)

When I was playing a shifter I found that I never exceeded that.

Pyrex- Let me get back to you about the Radiant Priest, I don't own The complete divine, but I will pick it up tomorrow.


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## Wrahn (Aug 19, 2004)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> I'm generally assuming that things are a go for my character?




I am sorry I missed this.

I have looked through the books I own and I can't find any of the prestige classes that you mention.  Can you tell me the source you are getting them from?


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## Ferrix (Aug 19, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> I am sorry I missed this.
> 
> I have looked through the books I own and I can't find any of the prestige classes that you mention.  Can you tell me the source you are getting them from?




I've posted it in like three posts so far, Complete Divine, Races of Stone and Players Guide to Faerun.


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## Someone (Aug 19, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Are you getting a +2 synergy bonus to your diplomacy from 5 ranks in bluff?
> 
> Is your character really 8' 2"?




No, that was a leftover from a previous version that had bluff. 

And no, that was a fumble with the conversion from metric. It should be 6´2´´ He´s tall, but not so much.

Both are now corrected. Also I forget some spell focuses, but that´s why I left "some" money unspent.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Aug 19, 2004)

Okay, here's a tentative version of my stats.

*Shifter, the Eternal Wanderer, the One of Many Names, and various others*

*Human(?) Druid 5/Shapeshifter 10/Warshaper 5B]
Alignment: Neutral Good

Size: M (usually, varies with shifting)
HD: 20d8 + 100
HP: 222
Initiative: +6
Speed: 30ft
AC: 29 (10, +8 armor, +6 dex, +5 deflection)
ff: 23 (30 w/ hide) t: 21
BAB: +15/+10/+5
XP: Enough


Attributes:

Str: 20 [6 pts + 2 level bonuses, +4 warshaper]
Dex: 22 [6 pts, +2 level bonuses, +6 item]
Con: 20 [8 pts +1 level bonuses, +4 warshaper]
Int: 22 [6 pts, +2 aging bonus, +6 item)]
Wis: 22 [6 pts, +2 aging bonus, +6 item]
Cha: 13 [3 pts, +2 aging bonus]


Attacks:

BAB: +13
Magical Bonus: +5
Strength Bonus: +5
Attack (+23 claw, 1d4+10 damage, 20/x2)
Full Attack (+23/+23/+18/+13 claws and +23 bite, 1d4+10 damage claw, 1d4+10 damage and poison bite, 20/x2)

Saves:

F: +20 (4 from druid, 7 from shapeshifter, 4 from warshaper, +5 con bonus)
R: +15 (1 from druid, 7 from shapeshifter, 1 from warshaper, +6 dex bonus)
W: +14 (4 from druid, 3 from shapeshifter, 1 from warshaper, +6 wis bonus)


Skills: (bonus/ranks)
18 * (5+3) + 5 * (3+3) = 174 skill points

Concentration: +28/23
Diplomacy: +14/13
Knowledge (The Planes): +32/23
Knowledge (Arcana): +32/23
Knowledge (Nature): +32/23
Knowledge (Dungeoneering): +32/23
Knowledge (Religion): +32/23
Survival: +29/23

Feats:

Multiattack (1st)
Fly-by Attack (1st)
Snatch (3rd)
Serpent’s Venom (DC 25, 1d6 con/1d6 con) (6th)
Endurance (9th)
Improved Multiattack (12th)
Faster Healing (15th)
Improved Maneuverability (18th)


Racial Abilities:

1 Bonus feat at 1st level
+4 skill points at 1st level
+1 skill point/level beyond 1st


Class Abilities:

Animal Companion
Nature Sense
Wild Empathy
Spellcasting
Woodland Stride
Trackless Step
Resist Nature’s Lure
Greater Wild Shape (All types, fine to gargantuan)
Supernatural Ease
Evershifting Form
Morphic Immunities
Morphic Weapons
Morphic Body
Morphic Reach
Morphic Healing
Multimorph

Spellcasting:
Spells per day: 5/3+2/2+2/1+1
Spells Prepared: 
0th: Guidance, Detect Poison, Detect Magic, Light, Read Magic
1st:Calm Animals, Charm Animal, Detect Snares and Pits, Detect Animals and Plants, Goodberry
2nd:Animal Messenger, Delay Poison, Restoration (Lesser), Gust of Wind
3rdoison, Cure Moderate Wounds

Languages:

Common
Druidic
Sylvan
Draconic

Equipment:

Belt of Defense (Armor +8, Deflection +5) (139,000)
Amulet of the Wanderer (Amulet of the planes + necklace of adaptation + ring of sustenance + continuous tongues spell) (160,800)
Anklets of Dexterity +6 (36,000)
Eyeband of the Mind (Wis and Int +6, +3 on int based checks) (96,750)
Wrists of Power (+5 natural attacks) (150,000)
Ring of Three Wishes (Two Left) (65,300)
Material Component for 10 Lesser Restorations (1000 gp)

8,500 carrying cash*


----------



## Wrahn (Aug 19, 2004)

Few things Nac,

I would appreciate you listing out where you get your save, attack, and armor class bonuses from.  It will make a difference as your physical stats (and perhaps your mental stats if you are forced to absorb your stat boosting items) change.

(I get slightly different numbers that you as well, +23/+18/+13 is what I get for your attack itteration (13 BAB +5 Enhancement, +5 Strength) or with multiattack +23 bite, +21/+21 claw)

Where are Elephant's Hide and Serpent's Bite from (my currect leaning is to say no to at least Serpent's Bite if you can get a DC 25 poison out of it.  But I will look at it)

Also I am not sure what Improved Multiattack is, it is not listed in the SRD.

Lastly, could you list out your spells and the spells you generally keep memorized.


----------



## Pyrex (Aug 19, 2004)

Nac, does one of your class abilities prevent age penalties or did you forget to list them?


----------



## Wrahn (Aug 19, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> Nac, does one of your class abilities prevent age penalties or did you forget to list them?




Evershifting form prevents aging penalties


----------



## Someone (Aug 19, 2004)

I changed my sheet somewhat. I´ll be doing that, adding finishing touches and a number of minor magical trinkets that the character is likely to have been gathering through the years. Background is almost finished.


----------



## Pyrex (Aug 19, 2004)

What is the standard wealth for 20th level?  I belive it's on the order of 800k gp, but I'm not sure.

(I'll have a draft posted sometime today)


----------



## Someone (Aug 19, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> What is the standard wealth for 20th level?  I belive it's on the order of 800k gp, but I'm not sure.




760k, IIRC


----------



## Pyrex (Aug 19, 2004)

Barring any changes to correct mistakes I should be done.  I would also recommend that you all consider purchasing the ever-popular 25,000gp life insurance policy (a.k.a. the material component for True Res)

```
[B]Name:[/B] Dimitri
[B]Class:[/B] Clr 7 / RdS 10 / Hei 3
[B]Race:[/B] Human
[B]Size:[/B] Medium
[B]Gender:[/B] Male
[B]Alignment:[/B] NG
[B]Deity:[/B] Pelor

[B]Str:[/B] 22 +6  (6p  +2 Inh +6 Enh)         [B]Level:[/B] 20    [B]XP:[/B] 104,000
[B]Dex:[/B] 16 +3  (2p         +6 Enh)         [B]BAB:[/B] +13     [B]HP:[/B] 205 (10d8+10d6+100)
[B]Con:[/B] 20 +5  (6p         +6 Enh)         [B]Grapple:[/B] +19    
[B]Int:[/B] 16 +3  (5p  +3 Inh)                [B]Speed:[/B] 30'       
[B]Wis:[/B] 32 +11 (10p +5 Inh +6 Enh +5 Lvl)  [B]Init:[/B] +3        
[B]Cha:[/B] 18 +4  (6p         +4 Enh)         [B]ACP:[/B] -0         

                   [B]Base  Armor Shld   Dex  Size   Nat  Misc  Total[/B]
[B]Armor:[/B]              10    +6    +0    +3    +0    +0    +5    24
[B]Touch:[/B] 18              [B]Flatfooted:[/B] 21

                         [B]Base   Mod  Misc  Total[/B]
[B]Fort:[/B]                     15    +5    +5    +25
[B]Ref:[/B]                       6    +2    +5    +13
[B]Will:[/B]                     15   +11    +7    +33

[B]Weapon                  Attack   Damage     Critical[/B]
Lightbringer              +20     1d10+10      19x2
Lightbringer (vs Evil)    +22     1d10+2d6+12  19x2

[B]Languages:[/B] Celestial, Common, Draconic, Undercommon

[B]Class Features:[/B] Aura of Warding, Divine Health, Divine Reach 60', 
                Extra Domain(Healing), Faith Healing, Greater Turn Undead (7/day),
                Positive Energy Burst, Supreme Healing, Turn Undead (3/day)  

[B]Feats:[/B] Close Quarters Combat, Empower Spell, Extra Turning, 
       Greater Spell Penetration, MWP(Hv. Flail), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, 
       Spell Penetration

[B]Skill Points:[/B] 138(138)  [B]Max Ranks:[/B] 23/11
[B]Skills                   Ranks  Mod  Misc  Total[/B]
  Balance*                 0    +3     -2    +1
  Climb*                   0    +6     -2    +4
  Concentration           19    +5          +24
  Diplomacy               12    +4     +4   +20
  Heal                     9   +11          +20
  Jump*                    2    +6     -2    +6
  Kn(Arcana)              12    +3          +15
  Kn(Nobility)*            7    +3          +10
  Kn(Religion)            12    +3          +15
  Kn(Planes)               7    +3          +10
  Listen*                  1   +11          +12
  Search*                  2    +3           +5
  Sense Motive*            9   +11          +20
  Speak Language*          2
  Spellcraft              17    +3          +20
  Spot*                    1   +11          +12
  Swim*                    2    +6     -2    +8

*Cross-Class skill

Spells/Day	0 / 1   / 2   / 3   / 4   / 5   / 6   / 7   / 8   / 9
(Plus Domain)   6   5+3   5+3   5+3   5+2   5+2   4+2   3+2   2+1   1+1 

Domains:  Healing, Strength, Sun

Spells Prepared	

    0			    1 - DC 22               2 - DC 23
    Create Water	    Command	            Align Weapon      
    Detect Magic  x2        Comprehend Languages    Consecrate
    Detect Poison           Detect Evil x2          Lesser Restoration
    Mending                 Detect Undead           Remove Paralysis
    Read Magic              Divine Favor x2         Resist Energy x2
                            Hide from Undead        Shield Other
                            Remove Fear             Sound Burst
                            (D)Cure Light           (D)Cure Moderate
									
    3 - DC 24               4 - DC 25               5 - DC 26
    Bestow Curse            Death Ward              Disrupting Weapon
    Blind/Deaf              Dim Anchor              Flame Strike
    Daylight                Dismissal               Hallow
    Magic Circle v. Evil    Free Movement           Mark of Justice
    Pro: Energy             Restoration             Slay Living
    Rm Blind/Deaf           Sending                 Spell Resistance
    Rm Curse                Spell Immunity          True Seeing
    Searing Light           (D)Fire Shield          (D)Emp Searing Light
    (D)Magic Vestment         

    6 - DC 27               7 - DC 28               8 - DC 29
    Banishment              Destruction             Dimensional Lock
    Blade Barrier           Holy Word               Discern Location
    Greater Dispel          Restoration, Greater    Greater Spell Immunity
    Harm                    Scrying, Greater        (D)Sunburst     
    Heal                    Summon VII
    Summon VI               (D)Sunbeam
    (D)Emp Fire Shield                      


    9 - DC 30
    Summon IX
    (D)Mass Heal


[B]Equipment:                         Cost[/B]
	
Explorers Outfit	           0.00
Silver Holy Symbol	          25.00
Spell Component Pouch	           5.00
  Atonement Focus                500.00
  Consecrate Component x4        100.00
  Destruction Focus	         500.00
  Forbiddance Component x2     3,000.00
  Hallow Component	       1,000.00
  Restoration Component x2       200.00
  Shield Other Foci x2	         100.00
  True Res Component          25,000.00
  True Seeing Component x2       500.00
	
Lightbringer	              21,895.00
Mithril BP+1 of Hv Fort       29,350.00
	
Tome of Str +2	              27,500.00
Tome of Int +3	              82,500.00
Tome of Wis +5	             137,500.00
	
Periapt of Wis +6	      36,000.00
Belt of Str +6 and Con +6     90,000.00
Gloves of Dex +6	      36,000.00
Cloak, Resist+5 and Cha +4    49,000.00
Ring of Protection +5	      50,000.00
Winged Boots	              16,000.00
	
Pearl of Power (2 spells)     70,000.00
Strand of Prayer Beads	      25,800.00
Metamagic Rod, Maximize	      54,000.00
	
Handy Haversack	               2,000.00
  Acid x5                         50.00
  Alchemist Fire x5              100.00
  Bedroll                          0.10
  Blanket, Winter                  0.50
  Clerical Vestments               5.00
  Holy Water x5                  125.00
  Rope, Silk, 50'                 10.00
  Trail Ration x14                 7.00
  Waterskin x14	                  14.00
	
	
PP  110                        1,100.00
GP  113                          113.00
SP    4                            0.40
	
Total	                     760,000.00

*Lightbringer is a Cold Iron Holy +1 Heavy Flail whose head is
worked to resemble a blazing sun.  The head has had a Widened (+3), 
Heightened (+4) Continual Flame cast upon it.  As the Continual Flame
has been Heightened to 6th level, its light shines through magical 
Darkness effects of 5th level or less.

[B]Total Weight:[/B]

                           [B]Lgt   Med   Hvy  Lift  Push[/B]
[B]Max Weight:[/B]                 nn    nn   nnn   nnn   nnn


[B]Age:[/B] 
[B]Height: 6'[/B] 
[B]Weight: 200lb[/B] 
[B]Eyes: Blue[/B] 
[B]Hair: Blond[/B] 
[B]Skin: Moderate Tan[/B]
```


----------



## Wrahn (Aug 19, 2004)

Pyrex,

Do you have greater spell penetration without spell penetration?

Shouldn't your dex be 14?  (8 base +6 enhancement)

Did you pay for the bonus languages?  Only your initial intelligence nets you bonus languages.  (Intelligence mods are not retroactiv in this case) (Don't blame me that is how I read the rules)

Hey open up your email for me.  Wrahnn(at)yahoo(dot)com
I want to send you one.


----------



## Pyrex (Aug 19, 2004)

I didn't list Spell Penetration, but I did count it when figuring how many feats I should have.  I'll list it explicitly to make it clear.

Yep.  Right you are.  I'll get that straightened out.

Note the two cross-class ranks of Speak Language. 

Email away.


----------



## Nac Mac Feegle (Aug 20, 2004)

Okay, let me answer these questions one at a time:

I'll list all the components when I put up the next draft (I still might shift around some feats/equipment).

My BAB is +15 because Warshaper has good BAB I think.

Improved Multiattack is from the Draconomicon, requires +11 BAB and eliminates all secondary weapon penalties.

Elephant's Hide and Serpent's Bite are Wild feats from Complete Divine.  They use up one wild shape per use (you could either say I do it at will or limit it to once per day per shifter level).  Elephant's Hide gives +7 natural armor for 10 minutes, and Serpent's Bite gives a bite attack that deals damage as per a dagger of your size with poison of DC 10 + (HD/2) + Con Modifier.  It's high because I'm tough and powerful.

Sorry about the spells, I almost forgot I had them (due to the focus on other things).  I'll put those in next draft too.

One question back for you.  There's a race in Fiend Folio called the Keepers, who have a natural attack which lets them turn their hands into any weapon they've seen before (both hands are needed to create a two-handed weapon).  Can I use Morphic Weapons (which lets me mimic a natural weapon) to use this?  Basically it'd just give me a little more versatility.


----------



## Ferrix (Aug 20, 2004)

Wrahn, I posted above what sources the classes are from, would you like me to post my character up so you can take a look and say yay or nay?


----------



## Ferrix (Aug 20, 2004)

Nac Mac Feegle said:
			
		

> My BAB is +15 because Warshaper has good BAB I think.




Actually warshaper has medium progression, so at 5 levels you'd only get a total +3 to BAB from it.  It's a pretty powerful PrC as is.


----------



## Nac Mac Feegle (Aug 20, 2004)

Whoops, sorry about that.  I'll revise my attacks downwards.


----------



## Wrahn (Aug 20, 2004)

Nac Mac Feegle said:
			
		

> Basically it'd just give me a little more versatility.




Any more Versatility and you will explode.  No I think they mean natural weapons not extradonairy abilities that mimic normal weapons.  If you want to use a weapon carry it shifted inside of you and then shape shift into someone who looks just like you and choose that weapon to come out.  (You choose what equipment is in or out)



			
				Ferrix said:
			
		

> Wrahn, I posted above what sources the classes are from, would you like me to post my character up so you can take a look and say yay or nay




I picked up the complete divine and races of stone tonight and looked over the prestige classes from there.  They look fine.  Looks like I have to borrow a friends copy of races of Faerun to look at the Hammer of Moradin though.  Make the character, that is fine.

Radiant Servant of Pelor is fine too, Pyrex


----------



## Ferrix (Aug 20, 2004)

Bah... did I say races of faerun... oops... it's the Players Guide to Faerun which has the Hammer of Moradin.


----------



## Ashy (Aug 20, 2004)

Cool!  Sounds like my character is pretty much a go then...  Wrahn, just waitin' on that revised doc on this end.  Thanks!


----------



## Ferrix (Aug 20, 2004)

Ashy said:
			
		

> Cool!  Sounds like my character is pretty much a go then...  Wrahn, just waitin' on that revised doc on this end.  Thanks!




You have an e-mail a wait'n from me.


----------



## Ashy (Aug 20, 2004)

Got it and replied...


----------



## TheOneAboveAll (Aug 20, 2004)

I am here.  Been away for a bit.  I will have something by sunday night.  I was going to go for a cleric of Lathander[morninglord /fist of raziel if allowed].  But you have one of Pelor.  Any other suggestions for what might be needed?


----------



## Nac Mac Feegle (Aug 20, 2004)

A rogue or a rogue/arcane trickster might be good.  We have a pair of fighters, a cleric, and a sorcerer.

By the way, I've revised the sheet to take into account all that stuff.  I may shift some cash around to give myself a weapon as well (just in case).  Then again I may not, I'll have to think about it.


----------



## Pyrex (Aug 20, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Radiant Servant of Pelor is fine too, Pyrex




Great.  I'll post what should be a finished version today.


----------



## Ashy (Aug 20, 2004)

nac - be looking for an email from me today, so we can discuss backgrounds, k?


----------



## Pyrex (Aug 20, 2004)

There was some discussion in the other thread but I'm not sure it ever got answered.

Wrahn, additional powers in items:  x1.5 or x2?


----------



## Wrahn (Aug 20, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> There was some discussion in the other thread but I'm not sure it ever got answered.
> 
> Wrahn, additional powers in items:  x1.5 or x2?




x1.5  I am still not sure I like it, but there it is in the errata and I thought I should probably give it a whirl.  I had ammended the character creation rules but should have posted something more.

Thanks for pointing that our Ferrix.


----------



## Pyrex (Aug 20, 2004)

Wrahn, how about whipping us up a thread in the Rogue's Gallery?

Dimitri has been finished and reposted.

Any feedback would be appreciated.


----------



## Pyrex (Aug 20, 2004)

*waves hand*
This is not the double-post you're looking for.


----------



## Someone (Aug 20, 2004)

Posted first version of background. Also, do you have any problem with the Twin Spell feat?


----------



## Pyrex (Aug 20, 2004)

What spells are you planning on Twinning?  

Kind of curious as I've never found Twin to be all that good.  I'd almost always rather cast a 9th level spell (or Empowered 7th) instead of a Twinned 5th.


----------



## Someone (Aug 20, 2004)

Enervation to start with. Scorching Ray and Fireball, if I´m low of 9th level slots to cast Meteor Swarm. But I´m looking forward: with 10th level slots it´s possible to twin Greater Dispel Magic and cast Twin Empowered Enervation. If I get a greater rod of maximize, that could mean Twin Maximized Empowered Enervation. That´s... like 11 negative levels, on average *drools*


----------



## Pyrex (Aug 20, 2004)

I'm definately with you on the Twin Greater Dispel, but given the wide differences of opinion on the subject we should probably get Wrahn to chime in on how Empower and/or Maximize interact with Twin.

Here's another silly question not covered by the rules:  If you Twin say, Fireball, can you seperately apply Mastery of Elements (and headache=on Mastery of Shaping) to each of the two Fireballs (setting, fer ex, one to Sonic and one to Acid)?

One more note:  Given your focus on combat magic, you should consider picking up at least one spell that doesn't allow for SR.  (Summon, Cloudkill, Acid Fog, etc)


----------



## Nac Mac Feegle (Aug 20, 2004)

Got your e-mail and responded Ashy.

Someone:  A brief note for you to consider is that using the rules we have right now it'll take a knowledge check to "know" a creature and change into it.  Arcana gets you magical beasts, constructs, and dragons, while The Planes gets you Outsiders and Elementals.  With that in mind, you might find it more effective to pick up a different 9th level spell.  For a sorcerer I might suggest the spell _Shades_, because it lets you mimic and 8th level or below conjuration spell with 80% real effects even if a will save is made.  That would give you a versatility that most sorcerers can't match.


----------



## Wrahn (Aug 20, 2004)

Someone said:
			
		

> Posted first version of background. Also, do you have any problem with the Twin Spell feat?




I am okay with Twinning.  According to the description anything that modifies the first spell, modifies the second, so you could not have an acid "Fire"ball and a sonic "Fire"ball in the same twined spell.

Ferrix, I have looked at the Hammer of Moradin and somone was smoking something over at WotC if they think that is a balanced class.  It has at least three Marquee abilities (Armor bonus to damage, Will bonus to AC and extra strength bonus to damage) and handful of just cool abilities (Dazing attacks, 6/- DR, Shadow walk, etc).  If you want to play this class, I am going to have to tone it down.  The epic progression they list is a clear indication that this class is a typo or they are on drugs.  (Lowering their hitdice, giving them caster levels, bonus feat every other level)

Oh and Nac, perpare to be hosed.  I honestly don't think they took into account the shifter when they made those feats.  My ruling is this:  Wild shape and greater wildshape are not the same for the purposes of those feats.  You can use your one wildshape per day (from your druid level) to use those abilities but Greater Wild Shape doesn't count (sorry)


----------



## Someone (Aug 20, 2004)

Nac Mac Feegle said:
			
		

> Got your e-mail and responded Ashy.
> 
> Someone:  A brief note for you to consider is that using the rules we have right now it'll take a knowledge check to "know" a creature and change into it.  Arcana gets you magical beasts, constructs, and dragons, while The Planes gets you Outsiders and Elementals.  With that in mind, you might find it more effective to pick up a different 9th level spell.  For a sorcerer I might suggest the spell _Shades_, because it lets you mimic and 8th level or below conjuration spell with 80% real effects even if a will save is made.  That would give you a versatility that most sorcerers can't match.




I considered that, but I think I´ll stay with shapechange. Outsiders alone are, arguably, the best forms to change into, and nothing beats shapechange in sheer versatility -specially in defense, and I´m a little short of that-

Another option is adquiring a +2 inherent bonus to Int and buy knowledge: dungeoneering, or maybe have it instead of Diplomacy. I´m thinking it doesn´t really fit with the character.


----------



## Pyrex (Aug 20, 2004)

You might also consider swapping one of your 7th level spells for Limited Wish.  300xp is a pretty low price to pay for a timely _Raise Dead_ or _Heal_.


----------



## Happy Funball (Aug 20, 2004)

Someone said:
			
		

> I considered that, but I think I´ll stay with shapechange. Outsiders alone are, arguably, the best forms to change into, and nothing beats shapechange in sheer versatility -specially in defense, and I´m a little short of that-
> 
> Another option is adquiring a +2 inherent bonus to Int and buy knowledge: dungeoneering, or maybe have it instead of Diplomacy. I´m thinking it doesn´t really fit with the character.




Actually, Someone, I would consider going Sorc 6, Incantatrix 10, Archmage 4.  Better counterspelling and metamagic goodness, plus I think it would make qualifying for archmage easier.  The 3.5 incantatrix is in the Players Guide to Faerun.  And I am not sure if you changed it, but you cannot take Spell Power twice as an archmage, IIRC.


----------



## Ferrix (Aug 21, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Ferrix, I have looked at the Hammer of Moradin and somone was smoking something over at WotC if they think that is a balanced class.  It has at least three Marquee abilities (Armor bonus to damage, Will bonus to AC and extra strength bonus to damage) and handful of just cool abilities (Dazing attacks, 6/- DR, Shadow walk, etc).  If you want to play this class, I am going to have to tone it down.  The epic progression they list is a clear indication that this class is a typo or they are on drugs.  (Lowering their hitdice, giving them caster levels, bonus feat every other level)




You did notice a good number of their abilities are usable rather limitedly.  You get one use of the Will to AC per day, their bane ability is once per day (it just gains more things it applies to, and for my character it'd last 1 round cause his charisma mod is a whopping +1), the axiomatic ability likewise will last a whopping 1 round, dazing attacks aren't really that impressive compared to stunning attacks.  The armor bonus to damage is only the base armor bonus (that's a +8 usually at most) and doesn't apply for natural armor.  Oh yeah, and shadowwalk 1/day at a caster level of 3 ;-).  The abilities with warhammers is pretty nice (additional damage, being able to throw it and it return, as well as the line effect) but I didn't find the class that overpowered.  Can we atleast try it out and see if it is that wowwing, cause a lot of things seem to come off that way until they get played through (i remember peoples reaction to the monk with their ability every level being overpowered, until they got played and found they weren't so much).

I was more worried about the deepwarden with their d12 hd, full bab, 6sp/lvl and two good saves.

The epic progression in my opinion is really poor design, even going by their own suggestions for epic progression.  The DR should have continued to advance considering it has a set advancement rate of 2 every 3 levels, the d10 dropping to d8 should be a typo (no other epic progression changes hit die that i've ever seen), the caster level is a typo (the errata clarifies that they do not get caster level progression).  The power strike should have increased by 2 every 5 levels, and maybe a bonus feat every 3 or so levels would have made more sense to me.


----------



## Someone (Aug 21, 2004)

Happy Funball said:
			
		

> Actually, Someone, I would consider going Sorc 6, Incantatrix 10, Archmage 4.  Better counterspelling and metamagic goodness, plus I think it would make qualifying for archmage easier.  The 3.5 incantatrix is in the Players Guide to Faerun.  And I am not sure if you changed it, but you cannot take Spell Power twice as an archmage, IIRC.




I prefer not take Incantatrix for various reasons, one of them being that I don´t have the PGtF. About the spell power, nothing forbids it (not even the DM), though it was limited in 3.0, where there were several levels of spell power.


----------



## Nac Mac Feegle (Aug 21, 2004)

Sorry for the short notice, but I'm going to be out of town for a while starting Sunday.

Full details at http://enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1716232#post1716232

I've edited up what should be the final version of Shifter.


----------



## Wrahn (Aug 21, 2004)

Ferrix-

In a play by post game in general and in my games specifically, combats don't tend to happen that often.  So consquently the ability to add somewhere around +12 your AC for one combat a day is kind of a powerful ability.  Plus the sheer depth and breadth of the Hammer of Moradin and the good BAB progression and the two good saves.  It is just too much (They have 19 abilities for heavens sake, more than the monk in 10 levels)

Tell you what, I have a simple fix in my eyes.  Change the BAB progression to average (Cleric/Rogue/Monk progression) and you can play the Hammer of Moradin.


----------



## Wrahn (Aug 21, 2004)

Oh and Nac, thanks for the notice.  With Pyrex being gone over a similar period I think I am going to push the tenative start date back to Sept 10.


----------



## Ferrix (Aug 21, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Ferrix-
> 
> In a play by post game in general and in my games specifically, combats don't tend to happen that often.  So consquently the ability to add somewhere around +12 your AC for one combat a day is kind of a powerful ability.  Plus the sheer depth and breadth of the Hammer of Moradin and the good BAB progression and the two good saves.  It is just too much (They have 19 abilities for heavens sake, more than the monk in 10 levels)
> 
> Tell you what, I have a simple fix in my eyes.  Change the BAB progression to average (Cleric/Rogue/Monk progression) and you can play the Hammer of Moradin.




How about change some of the abilities, I'd rather keep the BAB as I'm going for a up and front melee fighter.  So it's more of they don't balance well for a game with sparse combats since they won't be needing their abilities more than the once or so times they get 'em per day.


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## Ferrix (Aug 21, 2004)

okay, i'm going to try to work out some suggestions for toning down the hammer of moradin, any suggestions are welcome

Power Strike, 2/day and 4/day, reduce to 1/day and then 2/day.
Stalwart, base will to AC 1/day, reduce to 1/2 base will save
Bones of the Earth, 1/day changed to 1/week
Drop the bane/axiomatic abilities (this won't affect my character much now, but if his charisma ever gets higher they could actually come into play for more than 6 seconds a day)


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## TheOneAboveAll (Aug 22, 2004)

OK.
I have never played a rogue based character.  My favorites are cleric, soI am thinking a cleric/paladin hybrid in a secondary caster warrior mode or I might go with a bard.  Some advice please?


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## Ferrix (Aug 22, 2004)

So far we've got:

Nac Mac - Druid 5/Shifter 10/Warshaper 5 (he's our resident race of the day)
Ferrix - Ranger 1/Barb 2/Fighter 2/Deep Warden 2/Pious Templar 3/Hammer of Moradin 10 (dwarf fighter, he rages, he hunts, he takes a beating)
Ashy - ECL 2 Dwarf Monk 2/Cleric 6/Sacred Fist 10 (monk-cleric, burnination)
Pyrex - Cleric 7/Radiant Servant of Pelor 10/Heirophant 3 (healing monkey of the sun)
Someone - Sorcerer 15/Archmage 5 (Blammo, sorcerer uncanny)

I think a Bard might be a good idea, we do sort of need a dedicated skill user, we've got healing pretty much set what with Pyrex as his ball of radiant glory and Ashy's clerical powers as backup.  We've got some hardhitters in almost every category, physically Ashy and my characters shape up pretty well in melee, though I'm more focused on taking a beating.  Someone's sorcerer can pretty much turn us into dust when he coughs by accident, and I expect pyrex could to a point as well.  So we're really in need of a skill users, and I think a face man could be good too.  Someone has a lot of raw charisma, but someone with some diplomatic tact might be a plus.

Epic traps could tear us into pieces probably without a rogue.  The real pity of being a rogue is those nasty high level critters usually are not so crittable therefore no sneak attack.


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## Wrahn (Aug 22, 2004)

TheOneAboveAll said:
			
		

> OK.
> I have never played a rogue based character.  My favorites are cleric, soI am thinking a cleric/paladin hybrid in a secondary caster warrior mode or I might go with a bard.  Some advice please?




Ultimately I would say, play what you want.  This game is not going to be a big dungeon delve (It may include one, but you should not face many traps that would require a rogue).

But if you looking to fill gaps in the party, it looks like they are melee and divine magic heavy and "finesse" light.

A think a bard or and arcane trickster are good choices.


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## Wrahn (Aug 22, 2004)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> okay, i'm going to try to work out some suggestions for toning down the hammer of moradin, any suggestions are welcome
> 
> Power Strike, 2/day and 4/day, reduce to 1/day and then 2/day.
> Stalwart, base will to AC 1/day, reduce to 1/2 base will save
> ...




Okay it is a start, this is what I propose:

Aura of Courage: Unchanged
Hammer Throw: Unchanged
GoblinKiller: Unchanged
Hammer Return: Unchanged
Damage Reduction: Changed to 1/-, 2/-, 3/-
Powerful Grip: changed to add -2 to hit when using the Power Grip
Far Shot: Deleted, buy it yourself
Quake: changed to 1/day
Power strike: 1/day and then at 10th 2/day
Chaos Crusher: Unchanged
Stalwart: Half your base will save as a defelection bonus 1/day for class level rounds
Giant Slayer: Unchanged
Thunderstrike: +2 Damage against targets with an armor bonus
Power Throw: changed to 1/day
Bones of the Earth: Unchanged


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## TheOneAboveAll (Aug 22, 2004)

Ok, I have been thinking.  What about souldknife 10, monk 5, psychic rogue 5.  Those classes maybe different numbers.  I think that might be a fun combination to play.  Just need to look at them a little closer.  I am still building the bard to see which might be more fun for me though.


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## Ferrix (Aug 22, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Okay it is a start, this is what I propose:
> 
> Aura of Courage: Unchanged
> Hammer Throw: Unchanged
> ...




So basically everything that wasn't 1/day becomes once a day, ditch the one feat that applies to one weapon, and then stamp the other abilities down a good bit more and then we're set.  At least you leave some of the abilities that weren't going to be used almost any (any of the bane/axiomatic abilities and probably bones of the earth) by me anyways, those always help since they'd be active for a whole 1 round.  Why not just leave it and see how it plays out?  Then you can start nerfing things if they're too out of hand, it just gives me a mental grumpiness that you'll stamp it before it gets tried.

The dwarven defender looks better now for what I'm going for, and they get a better hit die, DR 6/-, a constant dodge bonus to AC, two good saves, and then there's the defensive stance 5/day, uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, trap sense and so on.  Maybe that's too good though.


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## Pyrex (Aug 23, 2004)

D.D. is pretty solid (good, but not broken) if you're looking for a front-line tank.  If you want a little more staying power, it benefits pretty strongly from taking the _Roll With It_ feat from Savage Species.


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## Ferrix (Aug 23, 2004)

I'd rather play a hammer of moradin without having it getting stomped into less than crunchy bits.


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## Pyrex (Aug 23, 2004)

Sorry, w/o access to the book I really can't help sort out balance issues w/ HoM.


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## Ferrix (Aug 23, 2004)

Wrahn how about some compromise.

Why all the changes?  They really make it a one trick per day kind of class with your changes, as well as penalizing almost any ability that isn't 1/day.  It's just frustrating on my end when neither of us have seen the class played.


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## Ferrix (Aug 23, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> Sorry, w/o access to the book I really can't help sort out balance issues w/ HoM.




No problem, not your issue to sort out.  Just generally frustrated with the suggested changes which really dumb the class down.


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## Wrahn (Aug 23, 2004)

Ferrix-

I can sympathize with your position, I really can.  No matter how I change the class to make it more in line with other classes (or my view of other classes) you aren't going to be happy with it (as it was balanced in your view), perhaps trying to compromise here is a mistake as it is apparently only going to lead to hard feelings.  

How about this:  Instead of us arguing over this, you play the Dwarven Defender.

Beyond that, try and stay focused on what you want out of the class, if you think I have been overy punitive, give me a counter proposal and I will listen to it.  Right now if you want all those abilities I would suggest taking the Cleric BAB version,  It does not hurt you overly much (-3 to hit essentially).


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## Ashy (Aug 23, 2004)

Might as well toss my initial character stab into the fray.  

Name: Ata
Male Rockbiter Dwarf (ECL 2) Monk 2/Cleric 6/Sacred Fist 10; CR 20
Alignment: Lawful Good
Height:
Weight:
Hair:
Eyes:
Age:

Str: 20 (+5) [6 points, +6 enh] 
Dex: 20 (+5) [6 points, +6 enh]
Con: 20 (+5) [4 points, +2 racial, +6 enh] 
Int: 10 (+0) [2 points] 
Wis: 30 (+10) [13 points, +2 racial, +5 lvl, +6 enh] 
Cha: 10 (+0) [4 points, -2 racial] 

Racial Abilities: small, +3 natural armor, change (+5 circumstance bonus to escape artist, disguise and hide checks), immunity to fire, sun sickness

Class Abilities: unarmed strike, bonus feats, flurry of blows, evasion; fire domain (turn or destroy water creatures or rebuke, command or bolster fire creatures, 3/day), celerity domain (+10 to land speed), spellcasting, turn undead 3/day, spontaneous casting (cure spells); ac bonus +3, spellcasting, unarmed damage, fast movement +30 ft., sacred flames 2/day (+20dmg), blindsense 10 ft., inner armor 1/day (+4 sacred ac, +4 sacred saves, SR 25)

Hit Dice: 18d8+90
HP: 200
AC: 38 (+5 Dex, +10 Wis, +4 Monk, + Defl, +3 Nat, +1 size, +5 Armor)
Init: +5 [+5 Dex]
Speed: 80 ft
Armor Check Penalty: --

Saves:
Fort +23 [+13 base, +5 Con, +5 cloak]
Refl +20 [+10 base, +5 Dex, +5 cloak]
Will +25 [+10 base, +10 Wis, +5 cloak]

BAB: +15/+10/+5
unarmed +29/+24/+19 melee (2d6+11+1d6, 19-20/x2, bludgeoning or piercing)
unarmed flurry +27/+27/+22/+17 melee (2d6+11+1d6, 19-20/x2, bludgeoning or piercing)

Skills (20+12+40):
Knowledge (religion) +8 [8 ranks, +0 Int]
Concentration +15 [10 ranks, +5 Con]
Spellcraft +4 [4 ranks, +0 Int]
Tumble +24 [5+2cc+10 ranks, +5 Dex, +2 syn]
Escape Artist +17 [10 ranks, +5 Dex]
Balance +19 [10 ranks, +5 Dex, +2 syn]
Jump +18 [1+10 ranks, +5 Str, +2 syn]

Feats: Weapon Focus: Unarmed (1st level), Improved Unarmed Strike (monk 1), Stunning Fist (monk 1) (7/day, DC 34), Combat Reflexes (monk 2), Combat Casting (3rd level), Intuitive Attack (6th level), Bladed Hands (9th level), Improved Critical: Unarmed (12th level), Practiced Spellcaster (15th level), Blind-Fight (18th level)

Languages: Common, Ugruu.

Caster Level: Cleric 18 Spell DC: 20+spell level
Spells Per Day: 6/8+1/8+1/6+1/6+1/5+1/5+1/3+1
Commonly Memorized (d = domain):
0th Level: Detect Magic, Read Magic, Purify Food and Drink, Create Water, open slot
1st Level: Shield of Faith, Divine Favor, Comprehend Languages, Protection from Evil, Burning Hands, Obscuring Mist, open slot, open slot, Burning Hands (d)
2nd Level: Augury, Calm Emotions, Hold Person, Remove Paralyis, Silence, Status, open slot, open slot, Produce Flame (d)
3rd Level: Invisibility Purge, Magic Circle against Evil, Protection from Energy, Meld Into Stone, Remove Disease, open slot, Resist Energy (cold) (d)
4th Level: Restoration, Divine Power, Death Ward, Dismissal, Wall of Fire, open slot, haste (d)
5th Level: True Seeing, Plane Shift, Righteous Might, Flame Strike, open slot, Fire Shield (d)
6th Level: Banishment, Blade Barrier, Greater Dispel Magic, Fire Seeds, open slot, Wind Walk (d)
7th Level: Resurrection, Holy Word, open slot, Fire Storm (d)

Equipment:
Monk’s Belt of Giant Strength +6 (55500gp)
Ki Straps of Dexterity +6 (43500gp)
Amulet (adaptation; mighty fists +3; Wisdom & Health +6) (153500gp)
Bracers (striking +1 metalline, sure striking, molten; armor +5, 181500gp)
Cloak (Resistance +5; Wings of Flying; Minor Displacement) (126000gp)
Ring of Freedom of Movement (40000gp)
Ring of Sustenance and Endure Elements (4000gp)
Pearl of Power (two spells, 70000gp)

Spell components:
True Resurrection material component (25000gp)
Resurrection material component x2 (20000gp)
Augury focus (25gp)
Augury material component, x8 (200gp)
Destruction focus (500gp)
Divination material component, x8 (200gp)
Restoration material component, x20 (2000gp)
Shield other focus 4 pairs (400gp)
True Seeing material component x10 (2500gp)

35175gp

Appearance:

Personality:

Background:


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## Wrahn (Aug 23, 2004)

Ashy,

I think you forgot to add your size bonus to AC.

I am not sure what inuitive attack and practiced spell caster are, but I suspect I know.  I am guessing here, that Intuitive attack is Wisdom bonuse to hit in place of Strength and Practice Spellcaster is the +4 caster level feat.

I will need to read those before I make a decision.  Also could you please detail how you got the 2d8 damage for your hand to hand attacks.

Bracers (striking +1, metalline, sure striking, molten; armor +5)

I know where the armor and molten are from, but Metalline and striking +1?  Could you give me a sourcebook or detail the what they do.


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## Ferrix (Aug 23, 2004)

metalline is from Underdark (it's a +2 enhancement that allows the weapon to act as if the various metals, you can change it once a round i think)

sure striking is from players guide to faerun (+1 enhancement) that lets you bypass damage reduction based on the four alignments.

intuitive attack is from Book of Exalted Deeds (wisdom to hit in place of strength)
Practiced spellcaster is from Complete Divine (adds +4 to caster level for purposes of determining level effects and sr penetration)

2d8 unarmed damage comes from monk and sacred fist levels stacking and the monks belt

i'd rather play the hammer of moradin, guess it seems the bab change is the best offer you've made so far, i'll think of anything that might balance it otherwise but that's probably what i'll go with *shrugs*

oops just noticed you meant 'striking +1' not sure striking, striking is the type of bracer (from magic of faerun i think, it is the bracer that lets you enhance your unarmed attacks like weapons as a double weapon, and the +1 is the minimum required before adding special abilities.)


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## Wrahn (Aug 23, 2004)

Ferrix-

Thanks for the information.

Ah, I see, I think you are missing the small modifier, a small 17th level monk does 2d6.  Or am I just being oblivious about something?

Glad we could come to something which we both didn't hate, hope to see your character soon.


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## Ashy (Aug 23, 2004)

obviously ferrix has some of the books that I don't have....


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## Ferrix (Aug 23, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Ferrix-
> 
> Thanks for the information.
> 
> ...




Ah... I completely forgot about him being small.  I helped Ashy with his character creation, and thinking dwarf I forgot that the rockbiters were small size.  Thus the lack of a bonus to ac from size and the reduce in unarmed damage.


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## Ferrix (Aug 23, 2004)

Ashy said:
			
		

> obviously ferrix has some of the books that I don't have....




Every book that WotC has put out ;-)  Sometimes I wonder why myself, although that used book rack is a great way to save a bit.


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## Ferrix (Aug 23, 2004)

yeah, I guess the change in BAB doesn't mean all too much considering epic progression for classes is the same for all classes.  I think I can deal for now ;-)


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## Wrahn (Aug 23, 2004)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> yeah, I guess the change in BAB doesn't mean all too much considering epic progression for classes is the same for all classes.  I think I can deal for now ;-)




Speaking of Epic Progression...

Again I don't have my books here but this is what I am thinking:

Hit points go to d10
You loose the +1 Caster level every other level
you gain progression on your abilities that progress
Your Epic Feats go from one every 2 level to one every 3 to be more inline with the other prestige class of similar ilk.  I will right something up when I get home


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## Ashy (Aug 23, 2004)

Cripes!  the site is Sssssssslllllllllllllllllllloooooooooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwww today...  Updated the sheet above (I think...)  :O


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## Ferrix (Aug 23, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Speaking of Epic Progression...
> 
> Again I don't have my books here but this is what I am thinking:
> 
> ...




Caster level progression?  I was getting caster progression from Hammer of Moradin?

Progression in abilities is cool, epic feat change is fine, hit die change is fine.


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## Wrahn (Aug 23, 2004)

Couple of other things, is there a reason I should know that you are keeping slots open?

I think your attack bonus is a little off as well (+15 BAB, +1 WF, +10 Wis, +3 amulet of mighty fist, +1 size) +30


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## Ferrix (Aug 23, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Couple of other things, is there a reason I should know that you are keeping slots open?
> 
> I think your attack bonus is a little off as well (+15 BAB, +1 WF, +10 Wis, +3 amulet of mighty fist, +1 size) +30




The ones listed are ones that I figured would be most commonly chosen on a day to day basis.  The open slots are to pick a spell or two for each level that is customized to the days needs.  That was my general idea, since you can prepare spells later in the day so long as you have open slots left.


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## Wrahn (Aug 23, 2004)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> The ones listed are ones that I figured would be most commonly chosen on a day to day basis.  The open slots are to pick a spell or two for each level that is customized to the days needs.  That was my general idea, since you can prepare spells later in the day so long as you have open slots left.




While Cleric have some advantages over wizards in this circumstance wizards have an advantage over clerics.

Cleric prepare their spells at one specific time during the day (which changes from diety to diety).  Clerics can not stop memorize more spells once they have done it that day.

Here is the relevant passage in the SRD http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/divineSpells.html


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## Ferrix (Aug 23, 2004)

> A divine spellcaster does not have to prepare all his spells at once.




Taken from the page you listed.

Also, did you think the hammer of moradin had spellcasting progression non-epic?


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## Wrahn (Aug 24, 2004)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> Also, did you think the hammer of moradin had spellcasting progression non-epic?




No, I didn't, I mostly think they made a mistake in editting.

You are more than welcome to keep the slots open, however they can only recieve spells once per day.  In other words it doesn't do you any good.


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## Ashy (Aug 24, 2004)

I'll be filling my open slots in my next character sheet revision....


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## TheOneAboveAll (Aug 24, 2004)

I plan on submitting my first sheet by thursday, work is killing with double shifts and call ins and all.  Sorry for the delay.


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## Ferrix (Aug 24, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> No, I didn't, I mostly think they made a mistake in editting.




Alright, yeah they did, the errata says it was a mistake.


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## Wrahn (Aug 24, 2004)

TheOneAboveAll said:
			
		

> I plan on submitting my first sheet by thursday, work is killing with double shifts and call ins and all.  Sorry for the delay.




No worries, we have a time before we start.


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## Pyrex (Aug 24, 2004)

Wrahn, I responded to your email.


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## Ferrix (Aug 25, 2004)

*Time to be torn apart ;-)*

Glangim, The Lost King, Hammer of the All-Father
Neutral Good Male Dwarf
Ranger 1/Barbarian 2/Fighter 2/Deepwarden2 2/Pious Templar1 3/Hammer of Moradin3 10
Experience: 1 off of epic, whatever that is
Height: 4 feet, 5 inches
Weight: 210 lbs.
Hair: Dark brown
Eyes: Dark brown
Age: 100 years

Str: 22 (+6) [10 points, +6 belt]
Dex: 10 (+0) [2 points]
Con: 30 (+10) [13 points, +2 racial, +5 lvl, +6 amulet]
Int: 10 (+0) [2 points]
Wis: 16 (+3) [4 points, +2 inh, +2 helm]
Cha: 14 (+2) [4 points, -2 racial, +4 cloak]

Racial Abilities: Darkvision 60 ft, stonecunning, stability, +2 racial save bonus against poison, spells and spell-like effects, +1 racial attack bonus against orcs and goblins, +4 dodge bonus to AC against giants

Ranger Abilities: Favored Enemy (giants), Track, Wild Empathy

Barbarian Abilities: Fast Movement (+10 ft.), Rage 3/day (+4 Str & Con, -2 AC), Uncanny Dodge (retain AC)

Fighter Abilities: Fighter Bonus Feats

Deepwarden Abilities: Trap Sense +1, Stone Warden (Use Con rather than Dex to AC)

Pious Templar Abilities: Spellcasting, Mettle (Evasion for Fort & Will saves), Smite 1/day (+4 hit, +3 dmg), DR 1/-, Weapon Specialization

Hammer of Moradin Abilities: Aura of Courage (immune to fear, allies within 10 ft. gain +4 morale bonus vs. fear), Hammer Throw (warhammer gains 20 ft. range inc.), Goblin Killer (imbue hammer w/goblinbane), Hammer Return (warhammers gain returning property), DR 6/-, Powerful Grip (+1/2 str mod. to dmg w/warhammer), Far Shot (doubles range on warhammer), Quake (60 ft. cone, Reflex DC 26 or knocked prone), Drowbasher (imbue hammer w/drowbane), Power Strike 4/day (Fort DC 26 or dazed), Chaos Crusher (imbue hammer w/axiomatic), Stalwart 1/day (base Will to AC, 10 rnds), Giantslayer (imbue hammer w/giantbane), Thunder Strike (bonus to damage = foes armor bonus), Power Throw (thrown hammer, line attack 60? range), Bones of the Earth 1/day (as shadowwalk but through earth)

Hit Dice: 1d8+4d12+15d10+200 (con)
HP: 356 (+40 when raging)
AC: 46 (+3 Con, +17 Armor, +4 Shield, +2 Sacred, +4 Defl, +4 NA, +2 Insight) FF 46 Touch 21 (42)*
DR: 7/-
Init: +0 [+0 Dex]
Speed: 30ft
Armor Check Penalty: -5

*when psionically focused he adds his armor bonus to his touch AC (Deflective Armor feat)

Saves:
Fort +36 [+21 base, +10 Con, +5 cloak]
Refl +10 [+6 base, +0 Dex, +5 cloak]
Will +23 [+13 base, +3 Wis, +2 feat, +5 cloak]
_Situational Modifiers:_
When raging: +2 to Fortitude from increased Con and +2 morale bonus on Will saves
Against spells and spell-like effects: +2 to the related saving throw
Against poisons: +2 to the related saving throw (normally fortitude)
Mettle: On partial Fortitude or Will saves, if save is successful no effect

BAB//Grapple: +17 // +23
Attack:
Moradins Resolve +28/+23/+18/+13 melee (1d8+19, x3, bludgeoning)
Moradins Resolve +22/+17/+12/+7 ranged (1d8+19, x3, 40 ft., bludgeoning)

Skills (24+8+4+12+6+20):
Climb +11 [5 ranks, +6 str]
Heal +6 [4+1cc ranks, +3 wis]
Jump +11 [5 ranks, +6 str]
Knowledge (dungeoneering) +5 [4+1cc ranks, +0 int]
Survival +11 [5+1+4 ranks, +3 wis]
Knowledge (religion) +5 [2cc+2cc+1 ranks, +0 int]
Craft (weaponsmithing) +27 [5+5+13 ranks, +0 int, +5 comp] (+2 w/metal or stone)
Concentration +15 [5 ranks, +10 con]
Speak Language [2 ranks]

Feats: Endurance (1st level), Extra Rage7 (3rd level), Weapon Focus: Warhammer (fighter 1), Heavy Armor Optimization2 (fighter 2), True Believer1 (6th level), Iron Will (9th level), Weapon Specialization: Warhammer (pious templar 3), Wild Talent6 (12th level), Greater Heavy Armor Optimization2 (15th level), Deflective Armor2 (18th level)

Spells per Day (2/1) (Paladin spell list, DC 13+spell level)
Commonly Chosen Spell: Divine Sacrifice1, Protection from Evil & Resist Energy

Languages: Common, Dwarven, Ugruu, Terran.

Equipment:
Bastion of Hope:  This dwarvencraft mithril mechanus gear was discovered by Glangim in the lost dwarven city of Aengkir.  Engraved with countless gears and runic symbols.  Originally crafted by a gnome cleric and a dwarf smith almost ten thousand years ago, it provides its wearer with unsurpassed physical protection as well as protecting him from death magic and effects, energy drain and negative energy.  It is also designed to transport itself onto the proper wearer when the correct command word is spoken, seeming to turn into a cloud of gears which reform around the wearer. (Dwarvencraft2 +5 Mithril Mechanus Gear4, Soulfire5, Called9 110750gp)

Stone Bulwark:  This dwarvencraft adamantine heavy shield was given to Glangim by the Hammers of Moradin for protecting the hold in time of dire need during an attack by Illithids.  It is an inch thick of adamantine which provides unparalleled physical protection, it also seemingly maneuvering itself to intercept the most damaging of blows which would strike vital areas.  Across the front of the shield is emblazoned the hammer and anvil that is Moradins holy symbol. (Dwarvencraft2 +2 Adamantine Heavy Shield, Heavy Fortification 52020gp)

Moradins Resolve:  This dwarvencraft adamantine warhammer is darker than wrought-iron and is engraved with silver-blue runes which spiral across its surface.  Its head is perfectly balanced and the blows it delivers are most potent.  Glangim received this in honor of his return from the ancient city by the dwarven smiths of his collective people. (Dwarvencraft2 +4 Adamantine Warhammer, Collision6, Sure Striking3, Ghost Touch, 131012gp)

Heart of Moradin:  This amulet was recovered from the den of a deep dragon which plagued the svirfneblin city of Spatzerclif.  Glangim along with his stout dwarven companions purged the creature from the depths and Glangim claimed this simple looking amulet as his own.  It is a simple disc of dark stone which is nearly indestructible engraved with the hammer and anvil of Moradin on one side with dethek runes of health and fortitude circling it?s smooth outer edge, embedded in the center on the opposite side is a soft red ruby which flickers with the iridescence of the forge.  Heat waves seem to waft off of it and an almost inaudible sound of bellows heaving in and out can be heard when held close to the ear.  It provides a +6 enhancement bonus to his Constitution score and encompasses Glangim in a continually fresh supply of oxygen allowing him to breathe in any environment as well as protecting him from noxious gases, inhaled poison and the like. (Adaptation & Health +6, 49500gp)

Guiding Bracers:  A pair of mithril bracers etched with runes of insight, they seem to guide their wearers movements to anticipate their opponents movements and better avoid and deflect their attacks.  Additionally, they were blessed by Moradin himself granting some of his sacred protection to the wearer. (bracers, +2 sacred bonus to AC, +2 insight bonus to AC, 25000gp)

Touch of the Hearth:  These are mithril chain gauntlets are covered on the backside with adamantine plates etched with a hearth, it?s flames reaching up the fingers.  Originally thought to have been in the possession of a cleric or paladin, they were discovered in the depths of the ancient dwarven city of Aengkir.  They allow the wearer to use the heal spell once per day as a standard action. (gauntlets, Heal 1/day (150hp), 32500gp)

Forgemantle:  A gift from the All-Father himself to Glangim, this heavy cloak of some unknown black material turns into a mantle of glowing star-like embers and waves of reddish heat when activated.  Once per week Glangim can activate a starmantle spell upon himself which lasts for 11 minutes.  When activated any nonmagical weapon or missile which strikes Glangim while he wears the Forgemantle is transformed into a harmless burst of embers and heat, destroying it.  Magical weapons and missiles are not destroyed by the cloak, but Glangim is allowed a Reflex save, DC 15, to take half damage from the attack.  The Forgemantle also provides Glangim with greater resistance against other forms of attack, granting a +5 resistance bonus to his saves.  Additionally, the mantle enhances Glangim?s presence providing a +4 enhancement bonus to his Charisma score. (Starmantle5 1/week, Resistance +5, +4 Charisma, 60400gp)

Belt of Mountains:  Discovered in the possession of a fire giant upon the surface, Glangim took this belt from the creature when his adventuring party defeated it.  It is a thick belt of heavy leather with a stone buckle.  The belt protects the wearer against the elements, allowing him to function in hot or cold climes unimpeded by natural weather, as per the endure elements spell.  It also allows the wearer to grow in size up to three times per day for up to a minute at a time as per the enlarge spell.  It additionally provides the wearer the strength and resilience of a mountain, granting a +6 enhancement bonus to his Strength score and a +4 enhancement bonus to natural armor. (Giant Strength +6, +4 natural armor, endure elements, enlarge 3/day, 63120gp)

Rising Stones:  Glangim found these boots, a skeleton still mired in them, floating in the middle of a hallway in a duergar keep which had been abandoned for some time due to the threat of a deep dragon.  They are made of heavy leather and reinforced with steel but are surprisingly light as a feather.  Glangim can move on any solid surface by imagining ?down? as any direction.  He can carry another living being, and so long as he does not let go of the second character that character?s gravity is the same as his.  However, as soon as he releases the person normal gravity takes over.  Technically, Glangim can fly by choosing a solid surface or direction as ?down? and letting himself fall through the air in that direction.  Glangim ?flying? in this fashion moves at 60 feet per round.  He can turn once per round thereafter by choosing a new ?down? and falling in that direction.  A falling character loses all ?downward? momentum when he redefines his gravity.  Additionally, these boots make it impossible for anyone to bullrush or trip Glangim, and so long as Glangim is carrying a medium sized melee weapon, he also counts as being set against a charge.  This does not have to be a reach weapon. (Boots of Gravity4 + Steadfast8, 59400gp)

Echoing Stones:  This helm is made of adamantine, it?s faceplate is worked to resemble a stoic dwarven face and the entire helm is enameled to appear as if it was made out of smooth white marble veined with gold and silver.  It was discovered in the ancient city of Aengkir by one of Glangim?s companions who gave it to him as a gift for his one hundredth birthday.  The helm provides him with some of the wisdom of the earth as well as other powers, granting a +2 enhancement bonus to Wisdom.  This helm conducts sound and other senses through an uncanny magic which allows Glangim to discern all which surrounds him within thirty feet making it incredibly hard to surprise him, this is in all effect identical to blindsight with a thirty foot radius.  He may invoke the effects of a see invisibility spell for up to 30 minutes per day. (helm, +2 wisdom, continuous blindsight3 spell, see invisibility (30 min.), 35400gp)

Derrick?s Blessing:  This ring is made for the fingers of a dwarf, crafted of polished white granite, it is flecked with purple.  Probably made by Derrick, a cleric of Moradin, it was he who gave the ring to Glangim when he first left his home to travel to the city Great Spire.  It protects Glangim, providing a +2 deflection bonus to his armor class, as well as sustaining his mind and body without food or water and little sleep. (Ring Protection +4 & Sustenance, 35750gp)

Tools of the Smith:  This fine set of craftsman?s tools were given to Glangim for his exceptional talent of craftsmanship for a dwarven waraxe delivered as a gift to the King of one of the dwarven cities.  It provides a +5 competence bonus to his craft (weaponsmithing) skill. (+5 to craft (weaponsmithing), 2500gp)

Heward?s Handy Haversack (2000gp)

Tome of Understanding +2 (55000gp) (used)
True Resurrection Component (25000gp)

8648gp

*Appearance:*

*Personality:*

*Background:* Born to the last surviving member of an ancient clan in the forgotten reaches of the Underdark, his mother passed shortly after from malnutrition and exhaustion.  Her time having long been past.  Alone in the wilds, the newborn would have died quickly in the harsh darkness if not for a kindhearted contingent of deep gnomes who took pity upon the child.  Upon returning to their city they quickly sought out a dwarf community and one gnome traveled the long journey with the child.  After much hardship he arrived at the dwarven city, placing the newborn in the care of an orphanage he shrugged off the thanks for returning one of their own and returned to his people.

Raised in the orphanage, he was without name or clan, others called him Glanten, the lost child.  As he grew, he felt apart from his kin, unable to participate in the many clan rites and rituals, but also greatly indebted to the sense of community they shared with him despite his clanless heritage.  He received the common training that all young dwarves receive, at the forge, in the mines, in the militia.  He found some relief in the scouting missions of the militia, feeling happy to be a part of his community and protecting it, but also able to get away from the reminders of his clanlessness.  At the age of forty-two he was on a scouting mission into an unexplored section of caves which were rumored to possess rich veins of iron ore.  It went well until an unexpected cave-in separated him from his scouting party.  Unable to go back the way he had come, he pressed forward, hoping for the cave system to carry him back around.  However it lead only deeper into the unknown.  For two months Glanten, as he had then started referring to himself, lived alone in the depths of the Underdark.  This isolation released within him the fury of the earth.

He was reputedly killed in the cave-in.  The dwarves of his community had only just then completely uncovered the massive cave-in which had taken many of the lives of the scouting party.  However they did not discover Glanten's body, and rumors of a dwarf living in the wilds to the east were suddenly taken very seriously.  Sending out new scouting parties to find this lone dwarf, they happened upon Glanten as he was on the hunt.  Glanten having had no contact with any dwarves or friendly humanoids since his departure from the cave-in rejoiced to be found by his community.

Returning to his community Glanten took up a post within the militia, focusing his training, he was soon approached to become a first line of defense for the community.  A position as a deepwarden was offered to him, and he gladly took up the calling of his people.  He became a defender on the outskirts of the community, his incredibly physical resilience tuned to his defense.

During one of his walkabouts in the Underdark he stumbled upon, actually fell through the ceiling of, an ancient temple.  Knocked unconscious from the long fall, he awoke staring into up into tall arches of stone presiding over him.  Apparently undisturbed for millennia, the temple rose around him and he dusted himself off from the fall.  A gleaming forge of ancient stone flared into life before him illuminating beautiful but subtle carvings on the walls, and the holy symbol of the All-Father spread out beneath his feet.  Approaching the forge in slow reverence, he reached out and laid his hand upon its stone.  It was surprisingly cool to the touch yet the heat from the forge flushed his face and his head swam dizzily.  Feeling waves of emotions, pride, rage, humility, love and more lap against the edge of his consciousness, his mind was flooded with images, stories, tales of the ancient dwarves, tales of an ancient clan which would bring his people as a whole together again, tales of an ancient dwarven city lost in the greatest depths which had once been the greatness of the dwarven people.  All of these things crashed upon his mind and then the ringing of a great hammer upon the forge rang out, resounding through his soul.  He felt something greater tugging at his heart, something which he must leave his home to do.

Returning to his community he took counsel with Derrick, one of the elder clerics of Moradin who had helped raise him in the orphanage.  Derrick heard him out, finding the story grow deeper as Glanten recounted the images and tales he had been awash in.  They rang true as some of the most ancient and forgotten legends.  Sliding a ring of thick polished granite off of one his fingers, Derrick placed it in Glanten's hand and bade him farewell, telling him that he would take care of any arrangements that would need to be made on his departure.

Glanten took only as much as he needed, finding that the ring he had been given let him go without food or water.  He headed to the surface to a city called Great Spire, where Derrick had told him of a massive library headed by a great sage who would be able to help him in his search for the ancient city of the dwarves.  Along his travel to Great Spire he soon found himself with a group of adventurers who all had their own reasons for seeking out the great sage.  Over the next fifteen years Glanten traveled with this company of adventurers, they carried each other through thick and thin, however many of them were of the younger races, humans and halflings, many of them grew older while Glanten remained in the prime of his youth.  Glanten gained more and more knowledge of the lost city but had never been able to discover more than dead ends in his many years on the surface.

When Glanten neared his fifty-seventh year the adventuring company disbanded, many of the members settling down.  Glanten set off once again for his homeland, this time bringing with him the knowledge of his travels.  Upon his return they welcomed him back whole-heartedly, hearing his stories echo through the meadhalls to the thrum of skalds.  However, he still felt that in the halls that he once called home, that something was missing.  He sought out Derrick once again, this time he was advised to seek out the company of the Hammers of Moradin for purpose.  Taking up his warhammer and his shield once again, he set off for their training halls and petitioned for entrance.  Seeing his devotion to the All-Father, they accepted him.  For two years he trained devotedly within their halls and became a full-fledged member.

->must somehow gain a bit of psionic power (probably the Illithid attack triggers it)
->discover the ancient city of his people
->divine correspondance with Moradin
  ->must discover his true name (Glangim)
  ->must meet up with Ashy's persona (Ata)
->having just turned one century old rumors are being spread that he may become the next High King, he isn't so keen on this idea himself but does not voice it to all but his closest of comrades

1: Taken from Complete Divine
2: Taken from Races of Stone
3: Taken from Players Guide to Faerun
4: Taken from Planar Handbook
5: Taken from Book of Exalted Deeds
6: Taken from Expanded Psionics Handbook
7: Taken from Complete Warrior
8: Taken from Arms and Equipment
9: Taken from Defenders of the Faith

*Other Notes:*
Dwarvencraft Items Cost an additional 600gp for a weapon or 300gp for armor and shields.  Increases hardness by 2, hit points by 10 and the items receive a +2 bonus to all saving throws.

Extra Rage provides 2 extra rages per day.

Heavy Armor Optimization and Greater Heavy Armor Optimization increase the armor bonus of worn heavy armor by 1 each, they stack on each other, and they reduce the armor check penalty first by 1, and then by another 2.

Wild Talent grants the character 2 power points and allows him to select psionic feats.  It grants him no manifesting ability.

Deflective Armor is a psionic feat, when focused he adds his armor bonus (enhancement bonus included) to his touch armor class.  It has heavy armor optimization as a pre-req.

True Believer allows the character to add a +3 bonus to one saving throw per day and qualifies him for using relics of his deity as well as for the pious templar PrC.

Divine Sacrifice when cast allows the character to sacrifice up to 10 hit points per round as a free action to deal +1d6 damage per two hit points, max +5d6, sacrificed on his next successful attack.  It lasts for 1 round per caster level (for a total of 3 in Glangim's case).  Thus if he uses it for 3 rounds, he could sacrifice up to 30 hit points, so long as he successfully hits each round, each of those hits dealing +5d6 additional damage.  As normal bonus damage dice are not multiplied by a critical hit.


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## Happy Funball (Aug 25, 2004)

Ferrix, interesting character.  I am glad Wrahn has to deal with him.     

Does the Deep Warden's ability to replace CON with DEX for AC allow him to circumvent DEX maxima for Armor?  Or does something else allow the full +10 CON modifier? 

I don't think the Damage Reduction from Pious Templar and Hammer of Moradin stack.  Most abilities like that overlap, meaning you get the best one in a given circumstance; in this case, the 6/- always wins out.  But I could not find an official ruling on that matter.

Just giving my 2 cp worth...

Still waiting for the others to drop out, to introduce my near-epic commoner...


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## Ferrix (Aug 25, 2004)

Happy Funball said:
			
		

> Does the Deep Warden's ability to replace CON with DEX for AC allow him to circumvent DEX maxima for Armor?  Or does something else allow the full +10 CON modifier?
> 
> I don't think the Damage Reduction from Pious Templar and Hammer of Moradin stack.  Most abilities like that overlap, meaning you get the best one in a given circumstance; in this case, the 6/- always wins out.  But I could not find an official ruling on that matter.




I know DR of different types overlaps, but this is the same type of DR, didn't know if stacked at all, so I used my only reference which was the Roll With It feat from SS which stacks with other DR.  Not that important though.

The deep warden's Con is supposedly free of the maximum Dex bonus that armor restricts.  It's been brought up a couple times on WotC boards and that's how the ruling generally fell.


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## Wrahn (Aug 25, 2004)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> I know DR of different types overlaps, but this is the same type of DR, didn't know if stacked at all, so I used my only reference which was the Roll With It feat from SS which stacks with other DR.  Not that important though.
> 
> The deep warden's Con is supposedly free of the maximum Dex bonus that armor restricts.  It's been brought up a couple times on WotC boards and that's how the ruling generally fell.




Okay first you don't qualify as a Hammer of Moradin (you can't cast 2nd level divine spells)

Second, I disagree with what they are saying on the WotC boards, when using Con in place of Dex you still limited by the maximum bonus you can apply to your armor class (be it Dex or Con).

Third, the cost of the starmantle cloak is wrong, it should be 2,660,000gp ((11*6*2,000*2 + 2,000)*10)

I will not allow the retributive amulet effect.

I am changing sure strike to -5 to DR

I am changing Collision.  There are (now) five levels of Collision.  Collision I adds 2 pts of damage for +1, Collision II adds 4 points of damage for +2, Collision III adds 6 points of damage for +3, Collision IV adds 8 points of damage for +4 and Collision V adds 10 points of damage for +5

Your gauntlets cost 32,500 (15*6*1,800/5)

Your Belt costs 55,120 (36,000 + (2^2*2,500*1.5) + (1*1*2,000/2*1.5) + (1*1*1,800*3/5*1.5))

I think the 7/- DR is fine though.

I have not had a chance to completely go over your character yet (3 demerits for giving the DM headaches   ), this is just the stuff from last night I had a chance to glance at.  More soon.


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## Happy Funball (Aug 25, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Okay first you don't qualify as a Hammer of Moradin (you can't cast 2nd level divine spells).



It took me a second to figure this one out.  I think that's because Pious Templar 3 gives you "0" 2nd level spells.  With a WIS of only 12, you don't get a bonus 2nd lvl spell, and thus cannot technically cast 2nd level spells.  That's assuming I remember the table correctly.



			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> Third, the cost of the starmantle cloak is wrong, it should be 2,660,000gp ((11*6*2,000*2 + 2,000)*10)



Because it is over 200,000 gp its an epic item?  I think its easier just to ban for being way too powerful (what was WOTC thinking?), but this is just as good.



			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> I think the 7/- DR is fine though.



BAH!  What would you know?    



			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> I have not had a chance to completely go over your character yet (3 demerits for giving the DM headaches   ), this is just the stuff from last night I had a chance to glance at.  More soon.



<sniff> This brings a tear to my eye, Wrahn.  You make me proud!   

Yes, its an inside joke...


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## Wrahn (Aug 25, 2004)

Happy Funball said:
			
		

> <sniff> This brings a tear to my eye, Wrahn.  You make me proud!
> 
> Yes, its an inside joke...




2 demerits for an inside joke.

(Happy runs the weekly d20 game I play in just for reference.  And if you think I am giving you are hard time Ferrix, you should see what kind of draconian b@stard Mr. Funball is    )


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## Happy Funball (Aug 25, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> (Happy runs the weekly d20 game I play in just for reference.  And if you think I am giving you are hard time Ferrix, you should see what kind of draconian b@stard Mr. Funball is    )




  You sweet talker, Wrahn.


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## Pyrex (Aug 25, 2004)

I may be online for a while tomorrow morning, but as of tomorrow afternoon I'll be out-of-town (and offline) from 8/26 through 9/10.

See you all when I get back.


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## Wrahn (Aug 26, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> I may be online for a while tomorrow morning, but as of tomorrow afternoon I'll be out-of-town (and offline) from 8/26 through 9/10.
> 
> See you all when I get back.




Have a good trip!


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## Ferrix (Aug 26, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Okay first you don't qualify as a Hammer of Moradin (you can't cast 2nd level divine spells).




Only have time to respond real quick but yes I do.

I can cast 2nd level divine spells as a 3rd level pious templar, I just don't have the bonus level 2 spell from my wisdom but I have the slot which qualifies me as being able to cast 2nd level divine spells.


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## Pyrex (Aug 26, 2004)

Ergo, you can't cast a 2nd level spell.

How do you qualify for "able to cast 2nd level divine spells" when you can't actually cast any? 

You have access to 2nd level spells, you can even cast 2nd level Pious Templar spells from a scroll with no chance of failure.  

However, without any 2nd level spell slots, you can't actually _cast_ a 2nd level spell.


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## Pyrex (Aug 26, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Have a good trip!




Thanks.  I'm certainly planning to.  Even without the trip it'd be hard to not enjoy two weeks off work.


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## Ferrix (Aug 26, 2004)

> Second, I disagree with what they are saying on the WotC boards, when using Con in place of Dex you still limited by the maximum bonus you can apply to your armor class (be it Dex or Con).




Whatever... guess I expected that one.



> Third, the cost of the starmantle cloak is wrong, it should be 2,660,000gp ((11*6*2,000*2 + 2,000)*10)




Why?  It's a listed price from the BoED at 132,000gp.



> I will not allow the retributive amulet effect.




Pity, why's that?



> I am changing sure strike to -5 to DR




Why's that?  To apply to all DR?



> I am changing Collision.  There are (now) five levels of Collision.  Collision I adds 2 pts of damage for +1, Collision II adds 4 points of damage for +2, Collision III adds 6 points of damage for +3, Collision IV adds 8 points of damage for +4 and Collision V adds 10 points of damage for +5




Alrighty, why's that though?



> Your gauntlets cost 32,500 (15*6*1,800/5)
> 
> Your Belt costs 55,120 (36,000 + (2^2*2,500*1.5) + (1*1*2,000/2*1.5) + (1*1*1,800*3/5*1.5))
> 
> I think the 7/- DR is fine though.




DR 7/- works with me.

That gauntlets was just a calculation mistake.

You've calculated the natural armor bonus wrong, it's bonus squared times 2000 times 1.5, not bonus squared times 2500 times 1.5.  The rest was a minor miscalculation.


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## Ferrix (Aug 26, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> Ergo, you can't cast a 2nd level spell.
> 
> How do you qualify for "able to cast 2nd level divine spells" when you can't actually cast any?
> 
> ...




By everything I've ever seen I have access to 2nd level spells thus can cast them.  Just like a level 2 bard can cast 1st level arcane spells.


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## Ferrix (Aug 26, 2004)

But seeing as a bunch of stuff of mine is going to get changed, I'll have the money to bump my wisdom to 14 to gain that bonus 2nd level spell slot.

Sorry if I seem a bit of a hard case Wrahn, with the group I game with it generally ends up that you have to push the line just to survive, even with all WotC books open game.


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## Ferrix (Aug 26, 2004)

Any comments on the fluff?  I worked hard on that stuff, the rest was easy


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## Pyrex (Aug 26, 2004)

My first read through the fluff looks good.  I'll give it a more in-depth reading after I get back.


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## Wrahn (Aug 26, 2004)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> Whatever... guess I expected that one.




I see your argument, but it only gets worse from here, in the interest of game balance, I feel I have to rule that way.



			
				Ferrix said:
			
		

> Why?  It's a listed price from the BoED at 132,000gp.




The cost is based on the continuous use of starmantle a 6th level spell cast at 11th level, but it is wrong because it doesn't take into account the duration (minute/level for an additional x2) and the material component cost.



			
				Ferrix said:
			
		

> Pity, why's that?




Anything that halves the damage you take is exceedingly powerful, anything that reflects half an oponents damage back on them is also exceedingly powerful.  Together they are way more than I believe to be game balanced.



			
				Ferrix said:
			
		

> Why's that?  To apply to all DR?




I didn't like the special effect.  They didn't justify it at all.  Sure Striking seems to me to be more appropriate to the -5 DR (including the X/- and X/Epic)



			
				Ferrix said:
			
		

> Alrighty, why's that though?




For a weapon for +1 you get +1 to hit and +1 on damage, I felt it was more consistent that it give +2 damage for a +1.



			
				Ferrix said:
			
		

> DR 7/- works with me.
> 
> That gauntlets was just a calculation mistake.
> 
> You've calculated the natural armor bonus wrong, it's bonus squared times 2000 times 1.5, not bonus squared times 2500 times 1.5.  The rest was a minor miscalculation.




You are correct about the Natural armor bonus.

No sweat on the being rough on me, no biggie in my book, still haven't found time to go over the character, hopefully tomorrow.


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## Ferrix (Aug 26, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> I see your argument, but it only gets worse from here, in the interest of game balance, I feel I have to rule that way.




Alrighty...



> The cost is based on the continuous use of starmantle a 6th level spell cast at 11th level, but it is wrong because it doesn't take into account the duration (minute/level for an additional x2) and the material component cost.




Stupid minute/level modifier, maybe I'll shift it to a once per day ability or something to keep the item cause I really like the description.



> Anything that halves the damage you take is exceedingly powerful, anything that reflects half an oponents damage back on them is also exceedingly powerful.  Together they are way more than I believe to be game balanced.




*shrugs* your game



> I didn't like the special effect.  They didn't justify it at all.  Sure Striking seems to me to be more appropriate to the -5 DR (including the X/- and X/Epic)




This makes me happy 



> For a weapon for +1 you get +1 to hit and +1 on damage, I felt it was more consistent that it give +2 damage for a +1.




Alrighty, usually a bonus to hit is worth more than a bonus to damage, since you have to hit first, but this works fine.



> You are correct about the Natural armor bonus.
> 
> No sweat on the being rough on me, no biggie in my book, still haven't found time to go over the character, hopefully tomorrow.




Cool... I'll update what I can tomorrow or something like that.


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## Ferrix (Aug 26, 2004)

oh yeah, your calculation for the starmantle cloak was wrong...

it'd be: 6 (spell level)*11 (caster level)*2000 (base multiplier)*2 (for being 1 min/level)=264000 + 2000 (material component)=266000gp

Not 2,660,000gp


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## Pyrex (Aug 26, 2004)

Any item with a base cost of over 200k gp is considered an Epic item and is therefore subject to the x10 Epic cost modifier.

266,000 x 10 = 2,660,000.


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## Ferrix (Aug 26, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> Any item with a base cost of over 200k gp is considered an Epic item and is therefore subject to the x10 Epic cost modifier.
> 
> 266,000 x 10 = 2,660,000.




*blinks* well that's a kick in the head
i wonder why they inflated the costs so much in epic


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## Pyrex (Aug 26, 2004)

I don't know.  It never made much sense to me either.  There are a whole bunch of other things that get the x10 as well.  

Weapons & Armor above +5 (just the Enhancement bonus), Rings/Amulets above +5, Stat Boosts above +6, etc.


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## Ferrix (Aug 26, 2004)

talk about inflation


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## Wrahn (Aug 26, 2004)

I think it is because there is no barrier functional barrier between epic and non epic items except money.  Epic items are suppose to be cool and if a +8 circlet of wisdom only cost 64k everyone would have one.

The amount of money you receive (hypothetically) is astronomical in comparison to the regular items, by 40th level you could look at the DMG magic item list and basically say, yes, I want all of those...

It is something I am not particularly fond of, I would not imagine you are going to be running around gather millions of actual gold coins from people.  Also, buy magic items is going to be difficult, particularly powerful ones, trading magic items is far more likely.


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## Ferrix (Aug 27, 2004)

Ah... good 'nuff explanation.

Updated Glangim replacing a good deal of equipment and some other stuff.


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## Wrahn (Aug 27, 2004)

For reference, I am changing Starmantle so the DC of the reflex save is not so ridiculously easy.

I am debating the DC equal to the HD of the creature inflicting the damage or the damage dealt.  Any input on this?


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## Ferrix (Aug 27, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> For reference, I am changing Starmantle so the DC of the reflex save is not so ridiculously easy.
> 
> I am debating the DC equal to the HD of the creature inflicting the damage or the damage dealt.  Any input on this?




Standard DC's equal 10 + 1/2 character level or HD.  I think that'd stand for a reasonable DC.  Damage scales far faster than saves ever do so I think that would be a bad thing for it to go off of.

Thus something with 20 HD would have a save DC of 20, something with 10HD would have a save DC of 15 and so on.


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## Wrahn (Aug 27, 2004)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> Standard DC's equal 10 + 1/2 character level or HD.  I think that'd stand for a reasonable DC.  Damage scales far faster than saves ever do so I think that would be a bad thing for it to go off of.
> 
> Thus something with 20 HD would have a save DC of 20, something with 10HD would have a save DC of 15 and so on.





The standard is 10 + 1/2 HD/level + approriate ability mod (which would be strenghth or dex depending on what they used to hit.)  We can probably go with that.


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## Ferrix (Aug 27, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> The standard is 10 + 1/2 HD/level + approriate ability mod (which would be strenghth or dex depending on what they used to hit.)  We can probably go with that.




I'm gonna have a fun time trying to even bother making one of those saves.  Figure about equal HD and strength, that's a DC of 26 or so right there.  I'll have to roll a 15 or higher, makes the spell far less useful in my opinion.


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## Wrahn (Aug 27, 2004)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> I'm gonna have a fun time trying to even bother making one of those saves.  Figure about equal HD and strength, that's a DC of 26 or so right there.  I'll have to roll a 15 or higher, makes the spell far less useful in my opinion.




Yeah, well for you.  But imagine if you will a roguish character with a +30 Reflex save...  I have to consider that too.

Okay how about the first time you are hit the striking creature needs to make an appropriate save (DC 19 (10 + level of spell + stat mod), I am thinking Fort being the most appropriate) or you take half damage from that target until the duration expires.


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## Ferrix (Aug 27, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Yeah, well for you.  But imagine if you will a roguish character with a +30 Reflex save...  I have to consider that too.
> 
> Okay how about the first time you are hit the striking creature needs to make an appropriate save (DC 19 (10 + level of spell + stat mod), I am thinking Fort being the most appropriate) or you take half damage from that target until the duration expires.




I'd say Reflex just to keep at least the same, that seems like a better mechanic.


----------



## TheOneAboveAll (Aug 28, 2004)

Here is my first working draft.  Tell me what you think and offer any suggestions.  Nothing here is really set in stone or nearly complete.

Bishop Kross
Human
Psychic Rogue 15/Pyrokinetcist 5

STR    19+4(12 base, lvl 1, headband of perfect excellence 6)
DEX    25+7(15 base, 1 level, 6 headband of perfect excellence, 3 manual)
CON   14+2(13 base, 1 level)
INT     18+3(15 base, 3 tome)
WIS    17+3(10 base, 1 level, 6 headband)
CHA   16+3(15 base, 1 level)

SAVES
Fort 9+2    11
Refl 13+7   20
Will 6+5    11

BAB  14/9/4
    melee 19/14/9
    ranged 21/16/11
Iniative +7
HP
AC
    flatfooted
    touch

Psychic Rogue
    48 pp/day, powers known 12, level known 4
    sneak attack +5d6, evasion, dangersense[uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge],trap finding, blindspot, decoy.  

Pyrokineticist
    fire lash, fire adaptation, hand afire, bolt of fire, weapon afire, nimbus.

Skills [368]
autohypnosis       19+3
balance              20+7    
bluff                    19+3
climb                   19+5
concentration       19+2
decipher script     20+4
diplomacy            19+3
disable device       20+4
escape artist        19+7
hide                     19+7
jump                    19+5
listen                   19+5
move silently        19+7
open locks           19+7
perform                19+3
search                 19+4
sleight of hand      19+7
spot                     19+5
tumble                  19+7


FEATS
mental leap, psionic body, psionic fist, wounding attack, speed of thought, rapid metabolism [inertial armor]

POWERS
1 farhand
2 wall walker
psionic find traps
psionic knock
psionic levitate
body equilibrium
3 body adjustment
dimension slide
hustle
microkinesis
control air
4psionic dimension door

Equipment
phasing leather ectoplasmic armor  76 320

skin of the claw 16 000
skin of the hero 77 500
skin of proteus 84 000
astral crown of fiery ruin 67 500
                      beast 33 750
third eye of veiwing 10 180
boots of evlen kind 2 500
handy haversack 2 000
helm of comp languages/read magic 5 200
headband of perfect excellence 4800 000
manual/tome +3[dexterity/intelligence] 82 500*2


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## Ferrix (Aug 28, 2004)

TheOneAboveAll said:
			
		

> Here is my first working draft.  Tell me what you think and offer any suggestions.  Nothing here is really set in stone or nearly complete.




Where's the psychic rogue from?  I haven't seen it before other than some house ruled ones on the boards here.  It's a great idea though in my opinion for a class.

You might want to post up the costs of your equipment just to make Wrahn's job easier, as well as the total number of skill points you have and such.   Looks interesting so far.


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## TheOneAboveAll (Aug 28, 2004)

Ok I will get that stuff up ASAP.  Psychic rogue is from WOTC's the mind's eye.


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## TheOneAboveAll (Aug 28, 2004)

I am going to play Bishop as the guy who hangs out back during a fight jumping in only if needed.  He will act as point man.  travelling ahead in silence and shadow.  With his third eye of veiwing he can safely look into things normally he would be unable to.  He also has a fetish with fire.


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## Ferrix (Aug 28, 2004)

The psychic rogue looks like a really cool class.  Only thing that I'm sort of sad about is it is very much focused towards a house-breaker type rogue with their power list.  I'd have much rather seen some telepathic powers on the list to make them a better con artist type.


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## TheOneAboveAll (Aug 28, 2004)

now that you mention it I kind of agree with you.  I will try to put together a bard/rogue/arcane trickster to compare the two.


----------



## Ferrix (Aug 29, 2004)

TheOneAboveAll said:
			
		

> now that you mention it I kind of agree with you.  I will try to put together a bard/rogue/arcane trickster to compare the two.




You could always appeal to Wrahn to switch out powers if you're up for that as well.


----------



## TheOneAboveAll (Aug 29, 2004)

If he would allow that I would go for it.  So how about switching out for more telepathic ability?


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## Wrahn (Aug 29, 2004)

OneAboveAll-

2 Demerits for making me look up stuff I hadn't even heard of. 

Only thing I can tell you on first pass is you overspent on characteristics:

14 = 6pts
15 = 8pts
14 = 6pts
15 = 8pts
13 = 5pts
15 = 8pts

total = 41 > 35 which means you went over points

The rest I will need to go over once I figure out where I put my expanded psionic book and look at the Mind's Eye


----------



## TheOneAboveAll (Aug 29, 2004)

I will recalculate my stats.  I see where I went wrong.  Sorry.


----------



## Wrahn (Aug 30, 2004)

TheOneAboveAll said:
			
		

> I will recalculate my stats.  I see where I went wrong.  Sorry.




Mistakes happen, no reason to apologize.  I am not accusing anyone of anything, just trying to get people to conform to a standard set of rules.

Late, just got back from gaming, tomorrow sounds better right now to look over the character


----------



## Wrahn (Aug 31, 2004)

I have looked over the Psionic Rogue and nothing jumps out at me as being grossly over balanced.  I need to review your items and powers also.  Remember I need a brief history (Nothing more than a paragraph is required, just some kind of blurb about where you are from and what motivates you).  Ferrix went above and beyond the call of duty (and is up to only two demerits  ) in his history.

I am thinking about starting soon.  Sort of as a prologue, mostly individual stuff until Nac and Pyrex get back.  So, can I get a sound off of who is still "listening"?


----------



## Someone (Aug 31, 2004)

Hello.

Now that I´m at it, most of the non-spent cash in the character sheet could be invested in some exotic commodities, like art, arcane materials (books, a laboratory, etc) and some mndate security, like sheets of lead inside the tower walls to prevent scrying.


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## Ashy (Aug 31, 2004)

Hi!


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## Wrahn (Aug 31, 2004)

Someone said:
			
		

> Hello.
> 
> Now that I´m at it, most of the non-spent cash in the character sheet could be invested in some exotic commodities, like art, arcane materials (books, a laboratory, etc) and some mndate security, like sheets of lead inside the tower walls to prevent scrying.




For reference if you want to fill in the names in your history:

Cimulas, the Shining One [lawful good deity]
Darmek [lawful evil deity]
King Therdes of Camecia [important mundane power]

Also if you are looking for good libraries, I can see N^2 * 200 as a compence bonus for a single knowledge skill.  Up to +3

I will arbitarily choose 5sp per square foot to line your tower (Remembers it is the walls too, not just floor space for if you had a 10' by 10' by 10' space you would have 600 square feet to cover (floor, ceiling, 4 walls)) (sorry for using non-metric, but I am too lazy to convert)

So if you had a 30ft in radius tower that was 80ft tall.  10,367gp approxiamtely.


----------



## TheOneAboveAll (Aug 31, 2004)

Just realized I need to adjust my skills and finish off a couple things, will get to it tonight.


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## Ferrix (Aug 31, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Ferrix went above and beyond the call of duty (and is up to only two demerits  ) in his history.




Yay!  I like writing history and stuff, that's the best part and helps me get a better grasp of the character (especially a character this high level needs a long history)


----------



## Someone (Aug 31, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> For reference if you want to fill in the names in your history:
> 
> Cimulas, the Shining One [lawful good deity]
> Darmek [lawful evil deity]
> ...




Thanks, I´ll edit the names in the background later. About the specifics in the tower, I´d leave it just unspecified, with things that could be easily sold but not being hard cash, but will detail it if you like it better. I don´t think lining the entire tower would be needed: I see Tares using actually a rather small portion of it -just, say, 4 rooms- because with Teleport, Gate and the mirror he really doesn´t have problems with feeling constrained. And of course has to leave at least one of them free to cast Scry himself or use the Mirror. 5000 gold would be enough for that.


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## Wrahn (Sep 1, 2004)

I have put up a Rogues Gallery.  Someone please post your character there.

Ferrix, I am almost good with your character, you have to finish your history and I need to find Gravity Boots and then you are good to go.

Ashy, I need a background.  I also changed Sure Striking, so be aware of that.  Otherwise you are good to go

OneAboveAll, I need a background from you and to look over your magic items.

Nac Mac Feegle and Pyrex are both out of town, but I need backgrounds from both as well.

I will start an in character thread by Friday to deal a little with a prelude.  I need some idea of who your characters are and where they are coming from before I can incorporate them.


----------



## Someone (Sep 1, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> I have put up a Rogues Gallery.  Someone please post your character there.




Done. Notice I removed some details needed to review the character but not for actual play.


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## Ferrix (Sep 1, 2004)

Gravity Boots are in Planar Handbook, will have more history up in a bit.

Ashy e-mail me some ideas for your characters history.


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## Ashy (Sep 1, 2004)

roger roger - I will get something up ASAP....

Ferrix - I'll drop you an email tonight....


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## TheOneAboveAll (Sep 3, 2004)

Bishop Kross was born in the slums and raised on the streets.  He was noticed by the guild at an early age running street scams, games of chance and cutting the occaisional purse.  He was invited to join their ranks and there he flourished.  He worked his way up and through the ranks and became known by most members.  When his special abilities became a major part of his resume the high ranking members took special notice.  He began working as an enforcer and a 'special cases' arsonist.  He to this day relishes that role, but recently he has been seeking something more.


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## Ashy (Sep 3, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Ashy, I need a background.  I also changed Sure Striking, so be aware of that.  Otherwise you are good to go




What was changed about Sure Striking??  Also, I will be adding a bit of equipment today, but it will all be from the SRD.  I will also be adding my background in a moment or two...


----------



## Wrahn (Sep 3, 2004)

Sure Striking is now -5 DR instead of alignment DR.  I did not like the explaination they offered (or didn't offer) and think that fits the name better.


----------



## Ashy (Sep 3, 2004)

Gotcha - also, bear in mind that I will be leaving to go backpacking in a couple of hours...  Won't be back until Monday evening!


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## Ashy (Sep 3, 2004)

Wrahn, I my character wear gauntlets and bracers at the same time?  Some DMs allow this - just wondering!


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## Ashy (Sep 3, 2004)

Ok - background and stuff is posted.  I kept the background straight forward and relatively simple (I wanted to make it more complicated and drawn-out) in case Wrahn decided to nix it...


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## Ferrix (Sep 3, 2004)

Ashy said:
			
		

> Wrahn, I my character wear gauntlets and bracers at the same time?  Some DMs allow this - just wondering!




they're considered two different slots so i don't know why this would be a question


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## Wrahn (Sep 3, 2004)

Ashy said:
			
		

> Wrahn, I my character wear gauntlets and bracers at the same time?  Some DMs allow this - just wondering!




What Ferrix said.  (Good by me and the rules as I understand them)

Have fun backpacking!


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## Ferrix (Sep 3, 2004)

Ashy, my characters current name is Glangim (lost king)... he used to be called Glanten (lost child), but was then renamed at some point, perhaps when he encountered the All-Father.


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## Ashy (Sep 3, 2004)

Ferrix said:
			
		

> Ashy, my characters current name is Glangim (lost king)... he used to be called Glanten (lost child), but was then renamed at some point, perhaps when he encountered the All-Father.




Gotcha - I was a little fuzzy on that....


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## Wrahn (Sep 3, 2004)

Hey their was something rolling around in the back of my head that I would like people's opinion on.  Ferrix is using Mechanus armor from the Planar handbook it is +10 Armor +0 Dex mod and -10 armor check penalty.  It lowers movement down to 15.

In the Races of stone there is virtually the same armor (don't remember the name) with essentially the same everything including the movement.  It requires an exotic armor feat to use.

So essentially I am debating whether I should require an exotic armor profiency for mechanus armor or enhance the stuff requiring the exotic armor proficiency.

As a sidenote, being made of Mithril does not change the fact it lowered your movement down to 15, it just means it is Medium Armor.

Also, I think other than this little point, Ferrix, we are good to go with your equipment.


----------



## Ashy (Sep 4, 2004)

Just FYI, my backpacking trip has been cancelled, so I will be around this weekend after all.  /


----------



## Happy Funball (Sep 4, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Hey their was something rolling around in the back of my head that I would like people's opinion on.  Ferrix is using Mechanus armor from the Planar handbook it is +10 Armor +0 Dex mod and -10 armor check penalty.  It lowers movement down to 15.
> 
> In the Races of stone there is virtually the same armor (don't remember the name) with essentially the same everything including the movement.  It requires an exotic armor feat to use.
> 
> ...



I think this may come as a shock to you, Wrahn, but I actually think its fine as normal, heavy armor.  Heavy armor is generally not worth it, certainly not at the wealth levels where DEX may be easily gained.  The loss of mobility is also pretty painful.  I would say that the +1 AC versus reduced movement is not worth an exotic armor proficiency.


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## Someone (Sep 4, 2004)

I agree. Compared with regular full plate (+9 AC counting Dex bonus) you trade movement for a +1 to AC. If you can fly or somehow reduce the movement penalty, the extra +1 AC bonus doesn´t seem to be exactly game breaking, and surely not enough to cost one feat.


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## Pyrex (Sep 4, 2004)

Just stopping by, I'm still alive and checking the boards when I have a few minutes and access to a PC.  

I have some background for Dimitri and will post it when I move the character to the RG thread (after I get back)


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## Ashy (Sep 4, 2004)

Wrahn, you mentioned something about starting on Friday - will you still be crankin' this puppy up this weekend, or what?  

EDIT: Nevermind, I found the IC thread (yea!) but when do the rest of us come in?


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## Wrahn (Sep 4, 2004)

Ashy said:
			
		

> Wrahn, you mentioned something about starting on Friday - will you still be crankin' this puppy up this weekend, or what?
> 
> EDIT: Nevermind, I found the IC thread (yea!) but when do the rest of us come in?




Sorry about your Backpacking trip 

I will work people in when I get their background.  I know you posted yours Ashy but it seems very dependent on the Ferrix and Nac's background which I only have half of Ferrix's background and not where he stands and how he interacts with you.  Remember this is just prologue stuff, enough to establish a feel for your character.  We won't really start with the meat until Septemeber 10th.

I guess I am of a similar mind about the Exotic Armor proficiency, If anyone is interested in it, I think I will add +1 AC to the armors in the the races of stone.


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## Ashy (Sep 4, 2004)

Thanks, Wrahn, hopefully I'll have another chance soon....

Understood on the starting; that's cool.  What did you think of the background.  I know it was sketchy (and thus, not my normal style) but I wanted to leave it fairly open for you to fill in, change, or add on as needed.  I'd be happy to fill it in more if needed!


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## Wrahn (Sep 4, 2004)

Ashy said:
			
		

> Thanks, Wrahn, hopefully I'll have another chance soon....
> 
> Understood on the starting; that's cool.  What did you think of the background.  I know it was sketchy (and thus, not my normal style) but I wanted to leave it fairly open for you to fill in, change, or add on as needed.  I'd be happy to fill it in more if needed!




Fill in as much as you wish.  I will run with it.


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## Ashy (Sep 4, 2004)

Cool - I will as soon as possible.  Also, I will be adding some items and mundane equipment as well.  I don't like walking around with all that cash...


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## TheOneAboveAll (Sep 5, 2004)

my background has been posted.  Waiting to hear about equipment and stuff.


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## Ferrix (Sep 5, 2004)

Ah... it's only a 5' difference in speed anyways.

I'd have to agree with the comments on exotic armors, most of them out of the Races of Stone should I think have been worth a bit more since you're spending a feat on them.


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## Ferrix (Sep 5, 2004)

About my background, sorry I haven't updated it, needed to see Ashy's to finish it up and I don't yet have internet at my apartment so it's hard to transfer between my home computer and library stuff.

Could you link the IC thread and RG thread in the first post in this thread so they're easy to locate?


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## Ashy (Sep 5, 2004)

Let me know if you need any more info, Ferrix...


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## Ferrix (Sep 5, 2004)

More background up, not entirely finished, but getting there.  Character in the RG here


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Sep 6, 2004)

I'm back.  Should I make a background, post in the RG, and then go to the IC?


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## Wrahn (Sep 6, 2004)

OneAboveAll-

I have gone over your character and there are a few issues:

You don't qualify for the Pyrokineticist.  You don't have the right skills.

Speaking of skills I am not sure your numbers are correct on the skills.  I guess I am a little confused as well.  Is the first number the number of ranks you have or is that the total?  I calculated your total number of ranks being (11*18 + 7*5) 233, I am not sure what the 368 is.

Your equipment is a little messed up.  You can't use the crowns as those abilities aren't available to the Psychic Rogue.  Even without the crowns you have two items for the head slot.

Inertial armor is no longer a feat in 3.5

You haven't spent all your feats (you should have 8)


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## Wrahn (Sep 6, 2004)

Nac Mac Feegle said:
			
		

> I'm back.  Should I make a background, post in the RG, and then go to the IC?




Please post a background, work you in soon and welcome back.


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## Ferrix (Sep 6, 2004)

Hope Ashy, Nac Mac and I get worked in pretty soon, the IC thread is looking pretty cool so far.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Sep 6, 2004)

Made a background and posted in the RG.


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## Ashy (Sep 7, 2004)

I'm here!


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## Wrahn (Sep 8, 2004)

Ashy, Nac, Ferrix-  Should have something up for you guys this afternoon

OneAboveAll- You there?


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## Ashy (Sep 8, 2004)

Excellent!!!


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## Ferrix (Sep 8, 2004)

Probably have internet access at home this weekend or the start of next week, will then put my final background/description/personality up.

Yay, time to get rolling.


----------



## Wrahn (Sep 8, 2004)

Sorry, delayed.

Tonight.


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## Ashy (Sep 8, 2004)

Otay....


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## Pyrex (Sep 9, 2004)

I just got back.  I'll have Dimitri posted in the RG with history either today or tomorrow morning.


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## Wrahn (Sep 9, 2004)

Welcome back.

As you can see we have started with some preliminaries.  I am not sure what has happened to the OneAboveAll, but we will wait for him a bit longer.


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## Ferrix (Sep 10, 2004)

Wrahn, reading the IC thread it seems like it appears that Glangim hadn't found the ancient city, I had actually figured he had finally and worked that into my background.  I can change things around if you want otherwise or unless I misread.  I'll post in the IC thread tomorrow following your response, only short library time at the moment.


----------



## Someone (Sep 10, 2004)

Wrahn, knowing that shapechanging spells are a pain in the ass I´ve prepared beforehand the stats and changes of some of the most useful forms to take; those are cretures in the monster manual that either Tares automatically knows or has to roll very low to know (the highest, a 3+ for the cornugon) There are more powerful outsiders, but they need a better roll.

The question is, since horned devils use weapons and are described as "humanoid" -though they have a tail and wings-, I think they can wear equipment (that is, equipment doesn´t meld into that form when shapechanging), but I´m not really sure.


----------



## Wrahn (Sep 10, 2004)

Someone said:
			
		

> Wrahn, knowing that shapechanging spells are a pain in the ass I´ve prepared beforehand the stats and changes of some of the most useful forms to take; those are cretures in the monster manual that either Tares automatically knows or has to roll very low to know (the highest, a 3+ for the cornugon) There are more powerful outsiders, but they need a better roll.
> 
> The question is, since horned devils use weapons and are described as "humanoid" -though they have a tail and wings-, I think they can wear equipment (that is, equipment doesn´t meld into that form when shapechanging), but I´m not really sure.




That is fine, yes, I believe there are rules (someplace) which talk about what creatures can wear what.  Horned Devils should be able to wear equipment normally.

Ferrix- No actually I had assumed you had found the lost city, but were waiting to declare yourself king and round up followers to repopulate it.  Apparently Balin Steelbiter is an avid supporter of this idea.


----------



## Ferrix (Sep 10, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> That is fine, yes, I believe there are rules (someplace) which talk about what creatures can wear what.  Horned Devils should be able to wear equipment normally.
> 
> Ferrix- No actually I had assumed you had found the lost city, but were waiting to declare yourself king and round up followers to repopulate it.  Apparently Balin Steelbiter is an avid supporter of this idea.




Ah okay... I misread   It'd probably be someone else putting the title of king on me, at least for now cause Glangim is sort of reluctant in the whole thing.  Post in the IC later.


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## Wrahn (Sep 10, 2004)

How long do we want to wait for OneAboveAll.  Today is start day, I am willing to delay a little longer before opening it up for Alternates, but I also want to hear what you guys think.


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## Ashy (Sep 10, 2004)

I'm easy like Sunday mornin'...


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## Someone (Sep 10, 2004)

Edit: cool, horned devils rock. Equipped horned devils rock more.

Sh.it happens, specially with computers. He may be busy, or ill, or simply forgot the game. I´d suggest to edit the title to add "calling theoneaboveall" and start the game, assuming he´s simply there or NPCing his character; if a single player can stop it, it´s going to be a slow one.


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## TheOneAboveAll (Sep 10, 2004)

I am here.  Been hectic here.  Trying to get in contact with Florida relatives and getting my grandmother out of there.  Things are better, not good but better.  Please aloow me two days to get the Sorceror, bard, arcane trickster in.


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## Wrahn (Sep 10, 2004)

TheOneAboveAll said:
			
		

> I am here.  Been hectic here.  Trying to get in contact with Florida relatives and getting my grandmother out of there.  Things are better, not good but better.  Please aloow me two days to get the Sorceror, bard, arcane trickster in.




I am fine with that.  Hope you can get out your grandmother out of Hurricane central soon.


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## Pyrex (Sep 10, 2004)

Sorry for the delay on getting Dimitri posted, I got back to my office this morning to find out that my office wasn't there anymore.

Turns out some practical jokesters moved me down the hall while I was gone.

Problem was they did an absolutely miserable job of putting my PC's back together and nothing worked.

Everything's fixed now and I'm online again.  RG post coming in the next hour or so...


----------



## Ferrix (Sep 11, 2004)

It's going to be tough for me to play the impatient one, I'm very patient myself usually.  Looks as if it's gonna be fun for me and ashy.


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## Ashy (Sep 11, 2004)

I agree!  Ironically, I tend towards brashness.


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## TheOneAboveAll (Sep 13, 2004)

Guys,

I am sorry but I will have to bow out.  Things are a little worse than we thought.  Although right now I am unable to join you all I hope that you all enjoy the  game.  Maybe in time if things get better and you have room I might be able to join you.

Sorry


----------



## Pyrex (Sep 13, 2004)

Good luck getting everything straightened out.


----------



## Wrahn (Sep 13, 2004)

OneAboveAll-

Sorry to hear it.  I put you down as an alternate.  Hope you get things straightened out soonand thanks for letting us know.

Lichtenhart-

You still interested?


----------



## Lichtenhart (Sep 13, 2004)

Yes I am. But I'll kinda need a couple of days to get all done.

You still need something roguish?


----------



## Wrahn (Sep 13, 2004)

Of the classic Archtypes they are missing a rogue type, yes.  But I should stress again that traps and locks are not obstacles I employ overly much.

Welcome aboard!


----------



## Lichtenhart (Sep 14, 2004)

I think I'll go for a gnome bard, but I'll tell you more tomorrow


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## Ashy (Sep 14, 2004)

*Note: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=100808*


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## Pyrex (Sep 15, 2004)

Doh!  I can't belive I forgot to put any travel spells in my typical list of prepared spells.  Ah well, there's always tomorrow.  Guess I'm walkin' to the graveyard.


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## Wrahn (Sep 16, 2004)

Lichtenhart-

How goes the character building?


----------



## Ashy (Sep 18, 2004)

FYI - I'm back!


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## Lichtenhart (Sep 18, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> How goes the character building?




Sorry i have been busier than I thought. She's turning out good though, I should have her up by tomorrow, and I'm only using core stuff so I don't think you'll have much to worry about. I'll also try to tie her background in with the others, if it's still possible. Who would like to have known a charming little bard singer before?


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## Ferrix (Sep 18, 2004)

It'd work well with Glangim, he's been through a couple groups of adventurers.  If you read his background, I can always change the name of the bard that led me to the great dwarven city to fit you in ;-)


----------



## Wrahn (Sep 21, 2004)

So, Lichtenhart, how goes character creation?


----------



## Lichtenhart (Sep 21, 2004)

I'm picking up equipment. It should be up in a couple hours. Sorry for th e delay.


----------



## Wrahn (Sep 22, 2004)

Update!

Sorry it took so long, hopefully we will get underway soon.

Lichtenhart- 1 demerit for not having anything to nitpick on, yet!
2 Brownie Points for staying in the Core Rules.


----------



## Ashy (Sep 22, 2004)

uh oh - look out Nac!  I think I dated her once!!!!  ::


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## Lichtenhart (Sep 24, 2004)

Elly is completed now. I'll write down her background as soon as I find the time to read the other players' backgrounds as well (I have a test on tuesday, after that I'll be a much more dedicated player, I promise ).

Three little things:
- I'm not sure if synergy bonuses from different skills to the same skill stack or not. Since they're unnamed I think they should stack (and I counted them this way), but I could be wrong.
- I selected the Locate Creature lesser power for Rosie, my intelligent flying carpet, though I'd be happier if I could have Improved Maneuvrability or Fly-by Attack as her power, I don't mind the cost you would set for them.
- Would you allow a bard to take the Ability Focus feat from MM as Ability Focus: Bardic Music, or, if that's too general, Ability Focus: Suggestion?


----------



## Wrahn (Sep 24, 2004)

Lichtenhart said:
			
		

> Elly is completed now. I'll write down her background as soon as I find the time to read the other players' backgrounds as well (I have a test on tuesday, after that I'll be a much more dedicated player, I promise ).
> 
> Three little things:
> - I'm not sure if synergy bonuses from different skills to the same skill stack or not. Since they're unnamed I think they should stack (and I counted them this way), but I could be wrong.
> ...




Oooo, things I can nitpick on   One brownie point!

Tattoo's, IMNSHO are different than magic items that don't have slots.  They are very difficult to remove.  Instead of multiplying the cost by x2 for no slot, x3 for tattoo's (I have already been called a heartless bastard for this, so feel free)

Synergy bonuses stack 

I have no problem with either of the feats, arbitarily I would say 5k for the Improved Maneuverability and 7.5k for Fly-by

Ability Focus: Suggestion is fine


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## Lichtenhart (Sep 24, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Oooo, things I can nitpick on   One brownie point!



Yay! That makes three! 


> Tattoo's, IMNSHO are different than magic items that don't have slots.  They are very difficult to remove.  Instead of multiplying the cost by x2 for no slot, x3 for tattoo's (I have already been called a heartless bastard for this, so feel free)



No, I won't call you that, since I went for the tattoo only because the pic had a tattoo (same thing for the earrings and the tunic, btw). I think I'll come up with a different item and normal rules. I just don't like ioun stones. They make me want to reach for a flywhisk. That or I'll pay the difference. Not a problem either way.







> Synergy bonuses stack



Good. Nothing to correct then.







> I have no problem with either of the feats, arbitarily I would say 5k for the Improved Maneuverability and 7.5k for Fly-by



Very good, thank you.







> Ability Focus: Suggestion is fine



Wonderful. At least I'll have a DC that I don't save against with a roll of 2.


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## Someone (Sep 24, 2004)

The intelligent carpet idea is great. I thought to give the Mirror of mental prowess intelligence too (and spend hours asking who´s the most charismatic sorcerer in the Kingdom), but the character was long finished and posted and it was too late.


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## Wrahn (Sep 24, 2004)

Someone said:
			
		

> The intelligent carpet idea is great. I thought to give the Mirror of mental prowess intelligence too (and spend hours asking who´s the most charismatic sorcerer in the Kingdom), but the character was long finished and posted and it was too late.




And when it answered that cute little hottie over there, would you have got dressed up like a hag and poisoned her with an apple?


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## Someone (Sep 24, 2004)

I would zap her with Disintegrate, and substitute her with a Polimorphed goldfish. Nobody would notice the difference.


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## Lichtenhart (Sep 24, 2004)

I don't think the goldfish's cuisine would be as good as mine. You have a woman that goes adventuring with you AND cooks for you and you disintegrate her? :\ 

Also if you got rid of me that way, my betrothed (who is a silver dragon, btw) would probably have had a word or two with you.


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## Someone (Sep 24, 2004)

Well, your character isn´t technically a _sorcerer_, only a spontaneous spellcaster.


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## Wrahn (Sep 24, 2004)

Lichtenhart said:
			
		

> I don't think the goldfish's cuisine would be as good as mine. You have a woman that goes adventuring with you AND cooks for you and you disintegrate her? :\
> 
> Also if you got rid of me that way, my betrothed (who is a silver dragon, btw) would probably have had a word or two with you.




Well if you start hanging out with Ferrix and Ashy, you will have your dwarves...

Alright, this is becoming disturbing, no more fairy tale references!


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## Pyrex (Sep 24, 2004)

*still waiting for the game to start*

Heigh ho, heigh ho....  Ok.  I'm done now.


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## Lichtenhart (Sep 25, 2004)

Wrahn, sorry, but I need another ruling. I asked about the fly-by attack for Rosie because this is the action I'd like to be able to do: stay out of the combat hovering on her, then when need arises, move in (half her fly movement, heal or buff one of my companions (or deliver a touch attack spell to one of my foes), and move out the other half of her fly movement. I thought about it, and i'm not sure the flyby attack for her is the right way to do it. Maybe I should take spring attack or ride-by attack to do that?
I'm confused, and I couldn't find anything clear in the rules. What would you say? If you otherwise don't like that kind of action at all, I'll just forget about it.


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## Pyrex (Sep 27, 2004)

I'm not the DM, but that sounds very much to me like Ride-By Attack (effectively the carpet is a flying mount).

Note that to Ride-By with a Touch spell you'd already need to be Holding the Charge.


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## Wrahn (Sep 28, 2004)

Currently, the way I read the rules, when you cast a touch spell you must immediately discharge it.  You can't Ride/fly by with it.  I make this caveat though, I am sick and have had very little sleep, so I will look at it again if someone can come up with a place in the rules I am missing.

As a side note it sounds like an interesting feat to be able to do it, perhaps something like Ride by Touch with a prereq of Ride by.  Too tired to think of all the implications though...


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## Lichtenhart (Sep 28, 2004)

I thought that casting a touch spell and delivering it was the same action. That way I could move in, cast the spell, deliver it, and move out. But the issue becomes more confuse the more I think about it, so I think I'll drop it altogether. Maybe we could make an epic feat out of it.

Anyway, since it looks like something Elly has to take rather than Rosie, I'll go with Improved maneuvrability for her. So I can finish equipment once and for all and start writing down her background, and don't delay the game any further.


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## Pyrex (Sep 28, 2004)

SRD said:
			
		

> *Touch Spells and Holding the Charge:* In most cases, if you don’t discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.
> Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can’t hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.






			
				SRD said:
			
		

> *Touch Spells in Combat:* Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.




Here are the relevant bits on holding the charge and cast-move-touch.


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## Pyrex (Sep 29, 2004)

So, ah, are we going to make this happen?  There hasn't been an IC post in almost a week...


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## Ferrix (Sep 29, 2004)

I feel like I'm waiting for Wrahn, although if he thinks otherwise I'll post up more of what Glangim will do involving the procession.


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## Ashy (Sep 29, 2004)

I'm still ready and willin'!


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## Someone (Sep 29, 2004)

Yeah, I´ve not unleashed my incredible power of destruction upon anything yet! If things don´t continue soon, those elves are in deep danger.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Sep 30, 2004)

I'm still here and hoping this isn't dead...


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## Ashy (Sep 30, 2004)

Me too!


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## Wrahn (Sep 30, 2004)

And you guys call me impatient...

What precisely I am waiting for is Lichtenhart's background.  Because of the story hook I am using I would prefer to have some understanding of all the characters.

Not that I would have been updating much this week anyway with me being sick all weekend and being in a wedding for a friend, my free time has been a little limited.

Don't worry, we are still alive, and if it makes your feel any better the in character update is about half written at this point.

Pyrex-

Yeah that was what I was looking for, thanks.

Still in 3.5 there is no such thing as a partial charge.  You can charge as a standard action if you are limited to taking only a single action in a round.  So it is possible to do the Ride by attack, but you would have to cast the spell in one round and  Ride by the next.


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## Ashy (Sep 30, 2004)

Cool....


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## Pyrex (Sep 30, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> And you guys call me impatient...




Sorry, I've seen too many games die after a week of no posts.  Don't want to see it happen to this one too. 



			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> So it is possible to do the Ride by attack, but you would have to cast the spell in one round and  Ride by the next.




I think I said that...


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## Someone (Sep 30, 2004)

> What precisely I am waiting for is Lichtenhart's background




Lichtenhart! Type fast! save the elves home!


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## Lichtenhart (Sep 30, 2004)

Oh sorry, I had to study a lot. Now that I'm done with my tests, I'll put it up ASAP.


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## Ashy (Oct 1, 2004)

Note:

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=102568


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## Wrahn (Oct 1, 2004)

Thanks for the heads up Ashy.


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## Ashy (Oct 3, 2004)

No prob...


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## Lichtenhart (Oct 4, 2004)

Elly's background is up. 
I tried to use the info from the other backgrounds and the IC thread to link her to as many of the other character as I could.
Now I'm ready to go IC as well.
Sorry again for the delay, I hope I didn't doom the elven nation.


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## Wrahn (Oct 7, 2004)

For reference, I am still here, this is taking me longer to write than I intially intended.  I am nearing completion, and I will update tomorrow if it kills me.


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## Ferrix (Oct 7, 2004)

That's alright.  I'll be away for the weekend in NYC for the Basie Centennial (100 years of count basie baby!) with some of the original band members playing and all that, it's gonna be great.  Don't rush on my account.


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## Wrahn (Oct 8, 2004)

Okay, finally we are underway.

Posts up in the IC section.  I think it is a good time to describe yourselves.

Ferrix-  Sounds like fun.

I will most likely not be posting much this weekend (suprise suprise) I have a lot on my plate.  I will try and check.


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## Ashy (Oct 11, 2004)

I'm back!


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## Pyrex (Oct 11, 2004)

I'm assuming that even though Dimitri is largely ignorant of extraplanar politics that he's at least heard of Sigil and if nothing else knows it's reputation as a sort of planar crossroads?

Does Dimitri know if the clergy of Pelor possesses the appropriate key (Material Focus for _Plane Shift_) to access Sigil?


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## Someone (Oct 11, 2004)

No worry for that. I can gather all of us rather quickly using Greater Scrying and the mirror of mental prowess, then Gate to Sigil (or near it: I never had anything planescape-related material and only know the most elemental things about it) That would take a lot of my resources, and given that I should be short of 9th level slots by now, Tares would just only be able to blow up half a city, not an entire metropolis. So, if we could wait a few hours before the trip, that would be great.


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## Pyrex (Oct 11, 2004)

Even if he does return us all together, Dimitri needs to go home and get his gear before heading off to Sigil.


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## Someone (Oct 11, 2004)

It costs a lot of money, but the Mirror makes distance irrelevant.


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## Wrahn (Oct 11, 2004)

Okay, Sigil is not going to play a large role in this, just an exotic location.  So don't worry about factions and being largely ignorant of Planescape.

As a little background:  It is impossible to Gate, Planeshift, or otherwise go to Sigil, except through one of the naturally occuring Gates that exist all over the place.  It is a difficult (DC 30) KS: Planes check to know where one is, but it is realitively easy for you guys.

Sigil is not the place to flex your destructive capabilities, by the way.  Sigil's best known inhabitant is called the Lady of Pain and she has no stats and is a big floating plot device that keeps Gods out of Sigil and prevents people from being overly destructive in her city.  She is otherwise an enigma.  Appearing and disappearing at seemingly random.

Finally Sigil sits on top of the infinitely tall spire that sits in the center of the multiverse.  (How something that is infinitely tall has a top and how something infinitely big has a middle are subject best not contemplated.) It is built on the inside of a gigantic torus (Donut like shape).  It is a bizare place full of interesting "people."


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## Ferrix (Oct 13, 2004)

This is probably the most touching moment I've ever had a character go through in a game.  Guess my standard RP group back home isn't so gung-ho on the emotional side of things.


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## Wrahn (Oct 13, 2004)

Glad you are enjoying the game.


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## Ashy (Oct 21, 2004)

Note:

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=104448


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## Wrahn (Oct 21, 2004)

Thanks for the heads up, have fun in Nawlin's and look out for ghosts.


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## Ashy (Nov 1, 2004)

AAA notice:

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=105697


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## Ashy (Nov 8, 2004)

AAA thread:

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1844417


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## Pyrex (Dec 10, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> (OOC: Weekends are usually bad for me posting and this one is going to be no exception. Combat will commence on Monday)




No problem.  I'm typically offline for most of the weekend as well.


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## Pyrex (Dec 14, 2004)

Now that we're all (presumably) back from the weekend, Wrahn, how do you want to handle combat?


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## Wrahn (Dec 14, 2004)

My apologies, I was sick yesterday and still a little today (and about half of Sunday if you want all the gorey details)

We will go round by round, I will post here in a bit, I am hoping for a round a day (and hope you guys don't crush my wittle monster)


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## Pyrex (Dec 14, 2004)

No problem.  Take however much time to need to be healthy. 

But you still didn't answer my question.  

Let me be more specific:
-Do you want to handle all the die rolls or would you prefer we use a web-roller?  (I'm perfectly happy letting you do the die rolls, it'll probably speed things up quite a bit)

-When describing our actions, how specific do you want us to be?
--Example: Do you plan to post a map with grid coords?


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## Ashy (Dec 14, 2004)

If we get a vote, I vote for Wrahn doing the rolls...


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## Pyrex (Dec 17, 2004)

*Character knowledge of Combat Events*

How much transparency are you comfortable with regarding characters understanding what's happening in combat?

Specifically, as a player my first response to the first round of combat results would be to have Dimitri cast _Restoration_ on Ata.

In your opinion is that:
A) Good Tactics
or
B) Unforgivable Metagaming?


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## Wrahn (Dec 17, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> How much transparency are you comfortable with regarding characters understanding what's happening in combat?
> 
> Specifically, as a player my first response to the first round of combat results would be to have Dimitri cast _Restoration_ on Ata.
> 
> ...




I believe that the game mechanics are just another way to explain what is happening, narrative description is another.  I would believe that Dimitri has seen enough of this to identify what has happened to use his spells to the best of his abilities.  So I fall much closer to the A side than the B.

There are limits of course, but I think Dimitri is well within the realm of "fair" game play to _Restore_ Ata.


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## Wrahn (Dec 17, 2004)

I am sorry I didn't see the rest of these posts until now.

I will post a map if and when A) Positioning become critical and/or B) when someone asks.

I won't be posting a grid coordinate system as if you really want to get technical you can copy the map:

_____
!````!
!`A``!
!``B`!
!`C``!

A- Bad guy1
B- Glangim
C- Bad guy2

it is realitively simple to post:

_____
!````!
!`A``!
!`*B`!
!`C``!

A- Bad guy1
B- Glangim
C- Bad guy2
*-center of Dimitri's Flamestrike

I am open to having the players make their own rolls, whatever works for you guys.


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## Pyrex (Dec 20, 2004)

Ashy said:
			
		

> Channeling holy power through his frame, he speaks a _holy word_




I nearly tried that round 1 until I realized I had a non-trivial chance of deafening Tares in the process...   :\ 
(fortunately you have a couple fewer caster levels than I do so it's not a problem...)


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## Ashy (Dec 20, 2004)

Oh well - Ata is reacting reflexively here and he does not much about his companions yet...  Don't want to much metagaming filtering in.


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## Pyrex (Dec 20, 2004)

Wrahn, if you put your text map inside {code}...{/code} tags it'll solve the spacing issue.


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## Wrahn (Dec 21, 2004)

Thanks for the tip Pyrex.

I should note that I am going to be out of touch starting tomorrow and ending sometime on Sunday, so updates are going to be sparse to non-existant.


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## Pyrex (Dec 21, 2004)

No worries, I think it's likely that most of us will have erratic access through the holidays. 

Happy Holidays all!  *goes to find his Christmas cd's...*


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## Pyrex (Jan 10, 2005)

Wrahn?  You out there?


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## Pyrex (Jan 12, 2005)

Anyone?  Anyone?  Bueller?  Anyone?

Every time a pbp stalls a kitten cries.  Won't someone please think of the kittens?


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## Ashy (Jan 13, 2005)

I'm here....

Busy as all heck, but here.


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## Nac Mac Feegle (Jan 15, 2005)

I'm here.  Has anyone seen Wrahn lately?


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## Someone (Jan 15, 2005)

Last time he was logged was 9 days ago.


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## Wrahn (Jan 21, 2005)

Okay, here is the deal.  I am a contractor and at the end of the year, somewhat unexpectedly my contract was over.  Been very busy here (very busy is somewhat of an understatement) but hopefully in a few days it should straighten itself out.

So, I am still around and still alive and will attempt to update in a few days.  I apologize for leaving you guys without any notice.  Sorry about that.


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## Ferrix (Jan 21, 2005)

fine with me, I can understand the disappearing act... it happens once in a while


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## Someone (Jan 24, 2005)

I´m still here.


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## Ashy (Jan 24, 2005)

I'm still here as well!


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## Pyrex (Jan 25, 2005)

Ah, ok.  Thanks for letting us know.


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## Ferrix (Feb 9, 2005)

bumpity


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## Wrahn (Mar 27, 2005)

Best laid plans and all that...

Okay, thanks for all of your patience, I am afraid (as you might have noticed) my original optimism about my return was overestimated.  My time has been seriously constrained and I unfortunately have not found my way back to this until now.

So, if anyone out there is still reading this, my schedule is such that I don't have time to devote to running a game, so I find myself having needing to end the game.  You have all been great (I mean that) and I wish I could have been more reliable,  but alas, the real world has conspired against it.

I hope you all enjoyed the game play we did have and I hope in the future when this is all straightened out, I will be able to enjoy a game or two with you again.  Thanks for your patience.


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## Ferrix (Mar 28, 2005)

Thanks Wrahn... pity to see it go, best of luck.


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## Ashy (Mar 28, 2005)

C'est la vie... It happens to the best of us.


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## Pyrex (Mar 28, 2005)

It was fun while it lasted.  Let us know if RL straightenes itself out to the point you want to try again.


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