# Beyond Level 20 for FCtF?



## Lisa Nadazdy (Sep 8, 2002)

How do you deal with charcaters beyond level 20?  Say I wanted a high level campaign with powerful heroes (and villains), but what do I do when they bump past level 20 (btw, I don't have the Epic level Handbook, and I don't really want to fork out $60 for the book)?  Do I just continue to extrapolate beyond 20th level (thus to reach 21st level requires a further 20,000 xp, gives an additional feat, etc.)?  How should this be handled?


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## Blacksad (Sep 8, 2002)

If you don't go above level 20 in a normal class, you do not need the ELH, you just need to multiclass.

After level 20 all your save increase by 1 every odd level, your attack bonus increase by one every other level.
You get new feats, ability increase, hit dice and skill as normal.

Considering that the Hero has low bab and save, I would say that:
Your first 20 non-hero level adds as normal.
Your first 20 Hero level adds as normal.

After that, bab and saves increase once every 2 levels.

If you go past 20 levels in a single class, you'll probably need some Epic-Level Rules.

If you go past 20 level in Hero, either continue as suggested in the book, or extrapolate. 

Considering that FCTF was released prior to the ELH, I would say extrapolate, so 8 HrPs by level and bab and save increase every two level.

Also, on CR, you might wants to check Asgard 6, it has rules for CR in high level of play.

Normally, you should be able to play smoothly up to level 50 without buying anything


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## RangerWickett (Sep 8, 2002)

Well, um, I admit that I looked at one of those playtest copies of the ELH before it came out.  I was interested, thanks to the Dragon teasers, but the actual rules I saw didn't seem too epic.  It was just a lot more of the same from the first 20 levels.  What I saw turned me off to the idea of ever using those rules (too much numbers, not enough heroic feel), so I don't really feel bad about looking at it.  

The only thing I kept in mind from reading the ELH was that character power can't keep advancing really really fast at high levels.  So, likewise, the Hero's power advancement slows down.  Just 4 HrPs a level, instead of 8.

That bit about slowing down advancement was put in at the last minute, and since I've never played epic characters, I can't say if it's necessarily balanced.  For my tastes, and really for most supers games, you don't really need to go past 20th level.  Low-level characters (1 to 5) represent down-to-earth, city street crimefighters who face more real-world threats.  Mid-level (6 to 10) lets you get into the realm of facing the occasional other super, and maybe an archnemesis who is a powerful super.  High-level (11 to 20) gets to the point that your everyday foe is another super, and the main villain needs to be something near-cosmic to challenge you.

And then, if you go past 20, sure, the numbers get higher, but the tone of play never really changes.  Thus, though the rules are scaled so you can go really high, I personally don't think it's necessary.


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## Blacksad (Sep 8, 2002)

I will compare 2 level of Hero after level 20 with 2 level of fighter after level 20. Using your method, and the the guidelines in the ELH to extend classes.

Fighter:
attack +1
all saves +1
average hp: 11
One feat
2 skill point

Gain Feat 2 HrPs
Increased Accuracy 2 HrPs
Heightened saves 3 HrPs
Skill Knoweldge 1 HrP
Super tough 5.5 HrPs

with your method, it would cost 13.5 HrPs while there is only 8 HrPs

With the standard method it would cost 8.5 HrPs with 16 available

I haven't said it here, but that's why I think Epic Feat should cost 8 HrPs.

and why Lisa would need the ELH if some character go past level  20 in a class.

I think it works better that way.

Also, I do not understand what you meant by:


> The only thing I kept in mind from reading the ELH was that character power can't keep advancing really really fast at high levels.




a +1 at level 1000 isn't the same thing than a +1 at level 21, so this is already taken care of by the way things add.

Plus in the ELH, they continue to add thing at the same rate, except for Bab and saves because it would give a too wide difference between character's save in the group, and some would automaticaly save against threat, while other would automaticaly fail.

Or did you prefered to use alternate Epic Rules?


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## RangerWickett (Sep 8, 2002)

Well, it just mostly seemed to me that, after 20th level, characters don't advance very much at any given level.  A 21st level wizard has, like, 2 more spells than a 20th level one.  Every 2 levels, a wizard would have a major jump in power as he gained a new spell level, but that kinda dies down at epic levels.  Mind you, I never looked closely at epic spells, so maybe I missed that one.

However, you did make one error.  Hero is a class just like fighter.  All classes get, for free, the same BAB and save progression beyond 20th level.  Like I said, I didn't really look too closely at the book, so I don't know whether epic feats should be closer to 4 HrPs or 8.  However, if all a fighter is getting at those levels is the (free) BAB and saves, plus 1 feat, a few skill points, and 6 more hit points (11 as opposed to 5), that's not too much.

Eh, like I said, I didn't pay too close to the ELH, so these are all kinda rough assumptions.  It probably doesn't play out in reality.  One thing I do know, though, is that at high levels, a large chunk of PC power comes from magic items, which to me is a brilliant shame.


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## Blacksad (Sep 8, 2002)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> *Well, it just mostly seemed to me that, after 20th level, characters don't advance very much at any given level.  A 21st level wizard has, like, 2 more spells than a 20th level one.  Every 2 levels, a wizard would have a major jump in power as he gained a new spell level, but that kinda dies down at epic levels.  Mind you, I never looked closely at epic spells, so maybe I missed that one.
> *




yup, you missed the improved spellcasting feat which grant you one spell slot of one level higher than your current max level.

The wizard get one bonus every three level through her class, and one every three through her character advancement, that's 2 feats every three level.

It means that if a wizard improve her spell slot every two level, she still has one feat every four level that she can spare on something else, and given the stength of some epic feat (improved metamagic), I'm pretty persuaded that the wizard keeps her steady advancement in power.

The increase in number of spell is taken care of through int boosting item.

The only real decrease in wizard advancement is the low Will save.



> *
> However, you did make one error.  Hero is a class just like fighter.  All classes get, for free, the same BAB and save progression beyond 20th level.  Like I said, I didn't really look too closely at the book, so I don't know whether epic feats should be closer to 4 HrPs or 8.  However, if all a fighter is getting at those levels is the (free) BAB and saves, plus 1 feat, a few skill points, and 6 more hit points (11 as opposed to 5), that's not too much.
> *




The problem here is that FCTF is supposed to work without ELH, and I asssumed that the n/a on save and bab past level 20 meant that it didn't advanced.

So, finally if you change nothing, the cost would be 8 HrP for two level and it would seem balanced.

The problem is that some Epic feat are really powerfull, if a wizard can take improved metamagic, epic spellcasting, Epic intelligence, and Epic Spell Penetration with just two hero level, no wizards will ever continue in his normal class.

If you price epic feat at 4 HrPs, you'll probably need to raise the number of HrPs per level up to 6.

That's why I think you should put the price at 8 for Epic feat, and let the number of HrPs increase by 8 every level for ease of use (if you create your NPC with HrPs and wants to determine its level after, it's easier to just divide by 8).



> *
> Eh, like I said, I didn't pay too close to the ELH, so these are all kinda rough assumptions.  It probably doesn't play out in reality.  One thing I do know, though, is that at high levels, a large chunk of PC power comes from magic items, which to me is a brilliant shame. *




It's the legacy of the "door/monster/treasure" standard adventure. It doesn't bother me that much. By the way, could the formula that you used to determine the number of HrPs obtained through gp deficit be extended for Epic level?


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## Great Cthulhu (Sep 25, 2002)

I was considering what an Epic Hero would look like and came to the following conclusions...

1) Epic Heros would not gain an Epic feat list like all the other core classes. The Epic feat lists represent legendary amounts of skills in a very specific profession. Heros are already geared towards this with the way power rules are set up. But since the Hero is so eccentric in the way each player can set it up that no Feat list could possibly be complete without all of them. This would also mean that the Hero would get no freebie Epic feats by class advancment (you would still get the CHARACTER LEVEL feat advancment though).

2) Epic feats can be purchased just like any other feat using 'Gain Feat' power. I don't think a Epic feat requires anything special to differentiate it from other feats (like an increased power cost) simply because they already have stiff requirements (legendary levels, feat chains, skill levels of 24+, specials). Epic feats are still just feats, not anything you need to overangst about. Besides using the Gain Feat power would allow you to pick up two epic feats every level. Not too shabby.

3) And finally...do you really WANT an Epic feat? Some of them are nice...but they tend to be less powerful than Powers. Agelessness is far nicer than that Epic feat that extends your lifespan for example.


And I was thinking...adding rules to your Big Book of Superpowers for Epic Heros shouldn't be that big an obstacle. Nothing prevents you from creating feats that require skill levels of 24+, and 21st character levels. Just call them 'legendary' instead of 'epic' and your off.


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## Great Cthulhu (Oct 1, 2002)

On second thought I think increasing the feat cost to four points per Epic feat isnt such a bad idea. One Epic feat per hero level is more than enough. I still think that Hero class doesnt deserve any sort of feat list though for the reasons I mentioned before.


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## novyet (Oct 23, 2002)

I'm still tempted to keep advancement at 8 HrP per level after 20, and create a new power: Gain Epic Feat and price it at either 8 or 10 HrP per shot. I've toyed with the idea, but nothing solid yet.


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## Alzrius (Oct 24, 2002)

I thought 4CTF seemed set okay for level 20+ play (in terms of mechanics) the way it is now. I mean, suppose you choose another level in the Hero class when you go up a level. You get the standard BAB and Saving Throw increases that everyone else gets. You still get feats and ability score increases at the normal intervals. Add in the lack of any sort of bonus feats and skill points, and it doesnt seem too over-powered to me.

While you could still purchase up to two Epic Feats per level increase, given that almost every other class gets bonus feats, combined with the high prerequisites necessary for Epic Feats (prerequisites you likely wont meet if you`ve taken a lot of Hero levels and have a low BAB, since quite a few of them are combat-based, and others are spell or special ability based, meaning Hero characters will need some hefty multiclassing to be able to get them), it seems to balance out.

A lot of Super Powers also cost quite a bit to enhance or gain, so only four points seems just right to me.

::shrugs:: Maybe Im missing something here, but I thought it was great the way it was. 

Now, what would an Epic Specialist or Gadgeteer look like?


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