# Converting Monsters from Polyhedron Magazine



## Shade (Nov 10, 2009)

Part Two. 

Original thread closed due to exceeding 1,000 post count.


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## Shade (Nov 10, 2009)

We were finishing the composite mummies, and had decided upon two remaining ones...

Jackal Composite Mummy:  LN, protection from chaos, dictum or order's wrath 

Typhonic Beast Composite Mummy: LE, rebuke undead, protection from good, unholy blight or blasphemy 

Croc: Str 27, Dex 13, Con —, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 15
Hippo:  Str 30, Dex 11, Con —, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 15

For these two, maybe Str 23, Dex 15, Con —, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 17?


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## freyar (Nov 10, 2009)

Abilities are ok by me!  If we want to differentiate them, we could make the jackal have an extra +2 Dex, the typhonic beast +2 Str or something.

And let's give them both rebuke/command undead.


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## Shade (Nov 11, 2009)

That sounds reasonable to me.  Cleon?


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## Cleon (Nov 11, 2009)

Shade said:


> That sounds reasonable to me.  Cleon?




Hmm...

I'm leaning towards giving them the same ability scores. If we do go for different stats, I'd prefer a bigger difference - say give the Typhonic Beast the same physical stats as the Croc Mummy.

Let's say Str 25 and Dex 15. They should have a Strength at least a token point higher than a regular Str 24 Mummy, since they're Large. The Mental stats look fine, although I'd be tempted to drop Int to the standard 12, partly because I think they're more creatures of faith than intellect, but mostly to reduce the amount of skill-point juggling.

So, we've got.

Jackal: Str 23, Dex 17, Con —, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 17
Typhonic: Str 25, Dex 17, Con —, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 17

or

Jackal/Typhonic: Str 23, Dex 15, Con —, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 17

or

Jackal/Typhonic: Str 25, Dex 15, Con —, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 17or

or
Jackal: Str 25, Dex 15, Con —, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 17
Typhonic: Str 27, Dex 13, Con —, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 17


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## freyar (Nov 11, 2009)

I like the last option!


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 12, 2009)

Agreed that they should be stronger than an ordinary mummy. Cleon's stats look pretty reasonable to me.


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## Shade (Nov 12, 2009)

Agreed.

Added the jackal mummy to Homebrews.

Jackals and dire jackals in Sandstorm have a +4 racial bonus on Jump checks, Track as a bonus feat, and a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent.  Do we want to retain any or all of that?

I increased the land speed for these mummies since they lack the swim speed of the other two, and jackals and dire jackals are swift.

For those without Sandstorm, the jackal is simply a dog with different flavor text, while a dire jackal is a dire wolf dropped to 4 HD, with a different skill set.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 13, 2009)

I like Track and the Jump bonus.


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## freyar (Nov 13, 2009)

I'd keep all of it, I think.


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## Shade (Nov 13, 2009)

Updated.

Fill in the x's...

Summon Jackals (Sp): Once per day, a jackal composite mummy can automatically summon x jackals* or x dire jackals**. This ability is the equivalent of a 7th-level spell.


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## Cleon (Nov 13, 2009)

freyar said:


> I'd keep all of it, I think.




That's my preference too - Track, with racial bonuses to Survival (scent tracking) and Jump.

Oh, and I'd use dire jackals instead of, or in addition to, regular jackals in the organisation entry.


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## freyar (Nov 14, 2009)

1d6 jackals or 1d4 dire jackals?


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## Cleon (Nov 14, 2009)

freyar said:


> 1d6 jackals or 1d4 dire jackals?




I'd think more than that, since the previous mummies got 2-4 hippopotamuses or giant crocodiles, which are far tougher than dire jackals.

3-12 dire jackals?


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## freyar (Nov 15, 2009)

Good point.  3d4?


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## Shade (Nov 16, 2009)

3d4 dire jackals sounds good.  How many standard jackals?  6d4?


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## freyar (Nov 16, 2009)

Works.  It's a lot of them, but it seems appropriate.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 17, 2009)

Especially since the PCs aren't likely to get any XP from them.


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## Shade (Nov 17, 2009)

Updated.


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## freyar (Nov 17, 2009)

Well, summoned critters count as part of the summoning monster's CR and XP anyway.  

Anyone remember if we were talking about any other special abilities?


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## Shade (Nov 17, 2009)

I had suggested borrowing this...

Curse of the Jackal (Su): Once per day, a jackal lord can make a gaze attack against a single opponent within 30 feet. If the target fails a Will save (DC 20), it is transformed into a jackal (use the statistics for the dog in the Monster Manual). The effect is as baleful polymorph, but with a permanent duration. A jackal lord can reverse this effect by gazing upon an individual that was cursed by itself or by some other jackal lord, but doing so counts as its use of the ability for that day. Otherwise, only a limited wish, miracle, or wish can restore the victim.

...but I think that pushes it too far over-the-top compared to the others.


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## Cleon (Nov 17, 2009)

Shade said:


> I had suggested borrowing this...
> 
> Curse of the Jackal (Su): Once per day, a jackal lord can make a gaze attack against a single opponent within 30 feet. If the target fails a Will save (DC 20), it is transformed into a jackal (use the statistics for the dog in the Monster Manual). The effect is as baleful polymorph, but with a permanent duration. A jackal lord can reverse this effect by gazing upon an individual that was cursed by itself or by some other jackal lord, but doing so counts as its use of the ability for that day. Otherwise, only a limited wish, miracle, or wish can restore the victim.
> 
> ...but I think that pushes it too far over-the-top compared to the others.




Well I can sympathize that it may be a little more than the others, but I would like to keep it. It's only 1/day, after all.

Now, we were going to give it a weapon attack (black ankh) plus a bite instead of a claw/claw/bite routine. I seem to remember suggesting we treat it as a Large battleaxe (e.g. 2d6 damage, triple damage criticals) it can make iterative attacks with.

So, I'm thinking the Black Ankh would be some kind of manifestation of the Mummy's enchantment, so it could manifest it at will and it would dissolve when slain.

Should it have enhancement bonuses?

Should it transmit the mummy's rot as if it was a natural weapon, or have some other power?


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## freyar (Nov 18, 2009)

We can reduce the duration if we're reallky worried about the curse being too powerful.

The ankh is a good idea, too.  Maybe we should give the curse to the jackal one and the ankh to the typhonic beast one.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 18, 2009)

Agreed to splitting the gaze and the black ankh. For the typhonic mummy, I definitely support the ankh channeling mummy rot.


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## Shade (Nov 18, 2009)

Updated.

So we're saving the ankh for the typhonic mummy?   In that case, stick with bites and slams for this one?


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## freyar (Nov 18, 2009)

Sounds reasonable to me.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 19, 2009)

Agreed.


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## Shade (Nov 20, 2009)

Skills:  5 at 19 ranks

Feats: Multiattack, Track (B), 5 more

Fill in the Xs...

Organization: Solitary, x (1-2 plus 2-4 mummies), x (1-2 plus 6-24 jackals plus 3-12 dire jackals plus x-x mummies), or divine council (3d4 composite mummies of various types)

Jackal composite mummies stand x feet tall and weigh x pounds.


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## freyar (Nov 20, 2009)

Diplomacy, Hide, Knowledge (religion), Move Silently, Sense Motive?

For org: family, pack with 4-8 mummies.


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## Shade (Nov 20, 2009)

Lets work some ranks in Jump and Survival in there as well, to go with their racial bonuses.


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## Cleon (Nov 20, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> So we're saving the ankh for the typhonic mummy?   In that case, stick with bites and slams for this one?




That seems backwards to me. Wasn't Anubis depicted with an Ankh far more often than Set? If I recall correctly, there are many images of the Jackal-headed god holding an ankh to the mouth of a dead person it's giving "life after death" too, but after a bit of Googling I could only find a couple of images of *Set with an ankh* (they're from the early history of Egypt before Set was viewed mostly as a malevolent god). 

So, I'd rather have the Typhonic Beast have the claws & bite & gaze attack, and the Anubis version have an Ankh with powers of life and death.


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## freyar (Nov 20, 2009)

Well, I'd just kind of assumed the "beast" would be more melee-centric, but I'm not averse to switching them.


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## Shade (Nov 20, 2009)

Ditto here.  Plus "curse of the jackal" fits better with the jackal-themed one, no?


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## freyar (Nov 21, 2009)

Shade said:


> Ditto here.  Plus "curse of the jackal" fits better with the jackal-themed one, no?



True enough.  How closely do we need to tie ourselves to Egyptian myth?


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## Shade (Nov 23, 2009)

As much as we'd like.  We have essentially free reign here, since the original writeups were nearly non-existent.


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## freyar (Nov 23, 2009)

Well, I'm willing do whatever as long as these fit more or less in line with the other composite mummies.


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## Shade (Nov 24, 2009)

I propose we either limit the ankh to the typhonic beast version, or drop the curse of the jackal and give it to the jackal headed variety.  We'd then need something interesting for the typhonic beast version.


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## freyar (Nov 24, 2009)

That was the original suggestion, but Cleon objected due to Egyptological concerns.  Perhaps we can get him to agree if we're separating from the real world?


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## Shade (Nov 24, 2009)

Sure.  Either way, the curse of the jackal is extranneous, and I'm happy to drop it altogether.


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## Cleon (Nov 26, 2009)

freyar said:


> That was the original suggestion, but Cleon objected due to Egyptological concerns.  Perhaps we can get him to agree if we're separating from the real world?




I'd prefer to drop the Curse of the Jackal and give the Jackal-headed version a Black Ankh, and maybe give the Typhonic version some other interesting plus give something else.

So, what interesting Set-related powers can we think of...

A spell-like ability related to deserts, storms or darkness?

Perhaps _word of chaos_ 1/day or maybe _storm of vengeance_ 1/week - it may be a 9th level spell, but it doesn't do _that_ much damage (10d6 lightning plus 5d6 bludgeoning plus deafness and obscurement).

The ability to summon demonic assistants or desert monsters (fiendish monstrous scorpions)?

Or what about a *was sceptre* - a "symbol of power, domination and control over the forces of chaos". Hmm, we could give it weapon stats and have it be the source of the previously mentioned SLA - although in that case we'll need to give the Anubis/Jackal version a corresponding SLA.


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## freyar (Nov 26, 2009)

Why don't we get the jackal one done first, then worry about the typhonic beast?

Dropping the curse is ok.


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## Cleon (Nov 27, 2009)

freyar said:


> Why don't we get the jackal one done first, then worry about the typhonic beast?
> 
> Dropping the curse is ok.




That suits me.


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## Shade (Nov 30, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Now, we were going to give it a weapon attack (black ankh) plus a bite instead of a claw/claw/bite routine. I seem to remember suggesting we treat it as a Large battleaxe (e.g. 2d6 damage, triple damage criticals) it can make iterative attacks with.
> 
> So, I'm thinking the Black Ankh would be some kind of manifestation of the Mummy's enchantment, so it could manifest it at will and it would dissolve when slain.
> 
> ...






demiurge1138 said:


> Agreed to splitting the gaze and the black ankh. For the typhonic mummy, I definitely support the ankh channeling mummy rot.




We can use this ability as a basis and build from there:

Summon Weapon (Su): An aurumach can be armed in an instant by magically summoning a golden, Huge +3 halberd. When separated from the aurumach, the weapon vanishes. An aurumach can summon or dispel its own weapon as a free action.

So maybe...

Summon Weapon (Su): A jackal composite mummy can be armed in an instant by magically summoning a black ankh. This functions as a +x battleaxe.  The black ankh also exposes anyone struck to the jackal composite mummy's mummy rot ability.  When separated from the mummy, the weapon vanishes. A jackal composite mummy can summon or dispel its own weapon as a free action.


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## freyar (Nov 30, 2009)

+1 axiomatic?  If that's too powerful, we could just do +2 or +1 throwing.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 1, 2009)

I think +1 axiomatic is fine.


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2009)

Updated.

Skills:  95 ranks



freyar said:


> Diplomacy, Hide, Knowledge (religion), Move Silently, Sense Motive?






Shade said:


> Lets work some ranks in Jump and Survival in there as well, to go with their racial bonuses.




Diplomacy 13, Hide 17, Jump 13, Knowledge (religion) 13, Move Silently 13, Sense Motive 13, Survival 13?

Feats: Multiattack, Track (B), 5 more

Jackal composite mummies stand x feet tall and weigh x pounds.


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## Cleon (Dec 1, 2009)

Shade said:


> Summon Weapon (Su): A jackal composite mummy can be armed in an instant by magically summoning a black ankh. This functions as a +x battleaxe.  The black ankh also exposes anyone struck to the jackal composite mummy's mummy rot ability.  When separated from the mummy, the weapon vanishes. A jackal composite mummy can summon or dispel its own weapon as a free action.




That was the sort of thing I was thinking of, although I'd make it a move action rather than a free action, just like drawing a weapon.*Summon Ankh (Su):* A jackal composite mummy can be armed in an instant by magically summoning a black ankh. This weapon functions as a _+1 axiomatic_ battleaxe. The black ankh also exposes anyone struck to the jackal composite mummy's mummy rot ability.

A jackal composite mummy can summon or dismiss its own ankh as a move action, or as a free action if it has the Quick Draw feat, just as if it were drawing or sheathing an ordinary weapon. The black ankh can be targeted by disarm and sunder attacks as normal. The weapon vanishes if it is destroyed oe separated from the mummy for more than a round, but a jackal composite mummy can then summon an undamaged black ankh to appear.​Or we could split the difference by giving it the above SA plus the Quick Draw feat?


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## Cleon (Dec 1, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I think +1 axiomatic is fine.




My original though was to make it something that harms the living, like a +1 wounding ankh, but axiomatic is a nice fit for a chaos-quelling proxy of Anubis.

Although we could have the Jackal composite mummy summon a True Ankh (= _+1 axiomatic battleaxe_) for smiting chaos, and the Typhonic composite mummy summon a Black Ankh, a perversion of the symbol which ruins the living rather than safeguards them (= _+1 wounding battleaxe_)?


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## Cleon (Dec 1, 2009)

Shade said:


> Diplomacy 13, Hide 17, Jump 13, Knowledge (religion) 13, Move Silently 13, Sense Motive 13, Survival 13?




While I like the idea of Jump but I don't think it needs that many points in it, and it badly needs a decent score in Spot and Listen. Problem is, that would leave it short elsewhere.

Maybe we'll have to bite the bullet and give it an Int of 14 plus higher racial bonuses in stealth desert skills (+4 in Hide, Listen, Move Silently and Spot?), so it has sneak-skills roughly the same as the other composite mummies?

Let's see, Int 14 would give it another 19 SP for 114 in total.

We could divide that into Diplomacy *12*, Hide *15*, Jump *4*, Knowledge (religion) *17*, Listen *17*, Move Silently *9*, Sense Motive *16*, Spot *17*, Survival *7*.

Apply the higher racial bonuses given above and we get:*Skills:* Diplomacy +16, Hide +17, Jump +15, Knowledge (religion) +20, Listen +23, Move Silently +15, Sense Motive +21, Spot +23, Survival +10 (+14 track by scent)
​That looks OK to me. If we want them a bit higher we can tweak the racial bonuses a bit more or give it skill-boosting feats like Alertness or Stealthy.



Shade said:


> Feats: Multiattack, Track (B), 5 more




I'd prefer to drop Multiattack and have it focus more on fighting with its Ankh.

I'd certainly give it Ability Focus (mummy scourge), Lightning Reflexes and Power Attack like the other composite mummies.

Use the other three feats for Ability Focus (despair), Combat Reflexes and Weapon Focus (black ankh)?
*Feats:* Ability Focus (despair), Ability Focus (mummy scourge), Combat Reflexes, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (black ankh)​


Shade said:


> Jackal composite mummies stand x feet tall and weigh x pounds.




Taller than a Sobek-mummy but the same weight, so it looks skinnier?Jackal composite mummies stand 12 feet tall and weigh 500 pounds.​


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## freyar (Dec 2, 2009)

Cleon said:


> That was the sort of thing I was thinking of, although I'd make it a move action rather than a free action, just like drawing a weapon.



  But it's magic, shouldn't it be better than drawing a weapon like normal?   I could go with splitting the difference, though I think that's a lot of text for a simple ability.



Cleon said:


> Although we could have the Jackal composite mummy summon a True Ankh (= _+1 axiomatic battleaxe_) for smiting chaos, and the Typhonic composite mummy summon a Black Ankh, a perversion of the symbol which ruins the living rather than safeguards them (= _+1 wounding battleaxe_)?



I think this is spot-on!



Cleon said:


> ...
> 
> Let's see, Int 14 would give it another 19 SP for 114 in total.



I'm undecided on the higher Int. 



> Feats: Ability Focus (despair), Ability Focus (mummy scourge), Combat Reflexes, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (black ankh)



  Looks good, and so does the size.


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2009)

I'd rather not boost the Int, as it is already dangerously close to being superior to the other composite mummies.   We can just give it a decent racial bonus to Listen and Spot (although I don't really see why it needs super high Listen and Spot).  We could replace Lightning Reflexes with Alertness if necessary, too.

Let's keep the weapon a free action.  For one, it's consistent with other creatures that can "summon" weapons.  Secondly, it makes for a cool visual of the jackal mummy charging a foe, suddenly manifesting a weapon, than swinging it at them all in a single round.

The feats look good, barring the possible swap of Lightning Reflexes with Alertness.

The height/weight appeal.


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## freyar (Dec 2, 2009)

I can get behind that.


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## Cleon (Dec 3, 2009)

Shade said:


> I'd rather not boost the Int, as it is already dangerously close to being superior to the other composite mummies.   We can just give it a decent racial bonus to Listen and Spot (although I don't really see why it needs super high Listen and Spot).  We could replace Lightning Reflexes with Alertness if necessary, too.




Well it's not so much I feel it needs super-high Listen & Spot so much as I think they ought to have the same sensory skill and Knowledge (religion) bonuses as the other mummies, which have +20 to +23 in those skills.

I'd be fine keeping them Int 12, but feel we need to cut down some of the other skills. I wouldn't feel bad about cutting its Diplomacy down, and just giving it a few ranks in Survival so it isn't much better at tracking than an SRD dire wolf.

Hmm, maybe rather than specializing in Hiding like a hippo or croc, the Jackal-headed sneaks up silently in the darkness. They could have a black skin which gives them a racial bonus to Hide in darkness.

So, putting Int back to 12 for 95 spell points.

Provisionally saying racial bonuses of +2 on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive and Spot checks, a +4 on Jump checks, together with +4 on Survival checks to track by scent and +8 on Hide checks when in darkness.

Divide ranks as follows:

Diplomacy *5*, Hide *7*, Jump *4*, Knowledge (religion) *17*, Listen *17*, Move Silently *9*, Sense Motive *16*, Spot *17*, Survival *3*.

That works out to:*Skills:* Diplomacy +10, Hide +7* (+13 in darkness*)*, Jump +15, Knowledge (religion) +20, Listen +22, Move Silently +13, Sense Motive +21, Spot  +22, Survival +6* (+10 track by scent)​That gives it four key "composite mummy skills" (shown in gold) at equivalent levels to the other mummies, an effective +13 in stealth and Diplomacy and Stealth skills which are a bit weak for CR-appropriate challenges, but perfectly adequate for run of the mill tasks.


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## Cleon (Dec 3, 2009)

Shade said:


> Let's keep the weapon a free action.  For one, it's consistent with other creatures that can "summon" weapons.  Secondly, it makes for a cool visual of the jackal mummy charging a foe, suddenly manifesting a weapon, than swinging it at them all in a single round




That's OK by me.

Besides, you know I'll just use my proposed rules for my own version of the composite mummies.


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2009)

Updated.

Finished?


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2009)

Added typhonic beast mummy to Homebrews to begin work.

Were we changing the name of the black ankh to was scepter for the typhonic?

What stats are we giving the typhonic beast for alternate form?   What shall it summon and be associated with on the organization line?


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## freyar (Dec 5, 2009)

I'm happy enough with the jackal.

We should definitely change the name of the ankh.  

As for alternate form and the summons, we should change it, but I don't know what to just yet.


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## Cleon (Dec 5, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Finished?




I'd fix the dire jackal form stats so they match the mummy in canid form rather than the actual dog, but apart from that it looks good.



Shade said:


> Were we changing the name of the black ankh to was scepter for the typhonic?




I thought we were.



Shade said:


> What stats are we giving the typhonic beast for alternate form? What shall it summon and be associated with on the organization line?




Well the Typhonic Beast is a weird lion/dog/jackass hybrid, so how about a Leucrotta from _*Monsters of Faer**û*__*n*_? Or, failing that, give it the same stats as a lion.


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## freyar (Dec 6, 2009)

The leucrotta is a great idea, with lions in case they don't have MoF.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 6, 2009)

I like alt-form leucrotta. A lot, actually.


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## Shade (Dec 7, 2009)

Excellent idea!

Updated.

Should the was scepter function as a mace or club rather than a battleaxe?


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## freyar (Dec 7, 2009)

Heavy mace, maybe, or morningstar if they were spiky.


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## Cleon (Dec 8, 2009)

Shade said:


> Should the was scepter function as a mace or club rather than a battleaxe?




I'd prefer a warhammer, so its damage and critical match a battleaxe.


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2009)

Warhammer works great!

How many leucrottas seem appropriate for the summon ability?   I'd peg a single one worthy of summon monster IV or V, and this is the equivalent of summon monster VII.

Organization: Solitary, family (1-2 plus 2-4 mummies), pack (1-2 plus x-x leucrotta plus 4-8 mummies), or divine council (3d4 composite mummies of various types)


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 9, 2009)

1d4+1 leucrotta would be fine, methinks.


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2009)

1d4+1 sounds fine.  And maybe 4-12 in the pack.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2009)

Updated.

Do we want to swap any skills or feats retained from the jackal mummy?  Any other changes?


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## Cleon (Dec 9, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> 1d4+1 leucrotta would be fine, methinks.




Well I lean slightly towards 1d3, but I can see it going either way so make it 1d4+1 if you like.

By the way, the power's name is only changed to "Summon Leucrotta" in the main stat-block, it still says "Summon Jackals" in the description.


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## Cleon (Dec 9, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Do we want to swap any skills or feats retained from the jackal mummy?  Any other changes?




I think they're all right as they are, except Weapon Focus (black ankh) obviously becomes Weapon Focus (was scepter).


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2009)

Updated.

All done?


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2009)

Looks good!


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2009)

Whew!  I almost became mummified in the time it took to convert a creature with less than 10 lines of text in the original source!


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## Cleon (Dec 11, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> All done?




Hold on, I've come up with another quibble.

The description says "_A mummified giant, half again as tall as a human_" that was all right for the shorter hippopotamus-headed version, but the jackal and typhonic ones are 12 feet tall.

Shouldn't we change it to "_twice as tall as a human_"?


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## freyar (Dec 12, 2009)

Sure, but Shade better fix it quick, or he'll start sprouting wrappings!


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## Shade (May 18, 2010)

*Kobalts*
AD&D(R) game statistics
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 20-80 males (plus others; see below)
ARMOR CLASS: 8 (leather equivalent)
MOVE: 9"
HIT DICE: 3 (4 hp minimum; note Heightened Constitution bonus to hp)
% IN LAIR: 60%
TREASURE TYPE: D; see below
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 (2 with bows, more with technological items)
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon type; bite for 1-2
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Magic and/or technological items; some have mutational attacks
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Magic and/or technological items; radiation and poison resistance
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Exceptional
ALIGNMENT: Lawful neutral
SIZE: S (3 1/2' tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: No true psionics, but may possess psionic-like mutations
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: III/110+4/hp base value (high intelligence and poison/radiation resistance); note that some individuals may have missile weapons, weapons doing great damage, or other magical! mutational enchancements that will raise their base x.p. value

In the most ancient archives may be found references to a powerful arch-mage who located an unusual alternate universe. Creatures of strange design roamed this world; the landscape was devastated by fire and war. The arch-mage summoned an army of goblins, ores, and allied monsters, armed them with the best weapons and equipment, set off into that forsaken land to make war upon its inhabitants, and found an empire from which to raid other worlds and planes. None of that host returned; the army was destroyed by savage beasts with incredible powers and by a sickness that could not be cured. Subsequent authorities now believe that the only survivors were the smallest creatures who were best able to hide deep in the earth and adapt to the new land.

Those authorities were correct. The only survivors of this raid were kobolds, and the new land wrought its changes on them in return for their survival. Now calling themselves kobalts, these creatures have picked up a number of beneficial mutations from the radiation in their environment. Their Infravision allows them to see any heated body at up to 60 meters (66 yards) at night or in darkness of any kind. They may detect the slight warmth that plants emit and find places on the ground where beings rested within the last hour; this latter ability allows them to track parties at night with 90% accuracy. However, their daylight vision has worsened, and they are -2 to hit opponents in direct sunlight. They are blinded for 1-4 melee rounds by sudden and close heat flashes (such as laser shots, Fireballs, lightning, or explosions), within 60 meters of them in a dark environment. When using heat-producing technological weapons or anticipating the use of same by opponents, kobalts wear protective goggles or helmet visors that reduce their Infravision to 30 meters, but that completely prevent blindness.

Kobalts have a tough, leathery scaled skin with a deep cobalt-blue color. Heightened Constitution gives kobalts an 18 resistance vs. radiation and poison in the GAMMA WORLD(R) game universe, and a save vs. poison in the AD&D(R) game worlds of 02. Their Heightened Intelligence gives them average mental strength (equivalent to wisdom) of 14, and an average intelligence of 15; they add 4 points to die rolls when learning to use an artifact. They have an average physical strength of 12 (normal kobolds have a 9). Prolonged experience in underground living makes them 75% likely to detect slopes, 60% likely to tell new construction, and 50% likely to know the approximate depth underground and the direction of travel.

One kobalt in 20 (male or female) has developed the Planar Travel mutation, which links the GAMMA WORLD game universe with one AD&D game universe (that of the current campaign). The kobalt casting this psionic-like power may send up to 40 kobalts, including himself, between the two universes once a week; returning to the universe left behind is equally simple. Kobalts with this power are regarded as holy by their clan and usually travel with the clan leader.

The leader of a kobalt clan has 21-24 hit points and a retinue of guards (3-12) with 15-20 hit points each, protecting both him and the planar-traveling kobalts (PTKs). Another 4-16 guards with the same hit point range as above will be assigned as lair guards, crewing positions near the entrances. These guards are in addition to the other kobalts encountered. The kobalt leader, PTKs, and guards are often equipped with heavier sorts of technological or magical armor. If the weapons they use permit it, they will use small shields to improve their armor class. The leader of a kobalt clan possesses 1-3 technological artifacts from the table below and also uses magical weapons, if they exist in the treasure hoard and are of the right size. Distributed among the rest of the guards and the PTKs will be 2-16 other technological devices with 1-4 energy cells per device if required. The leader and PTKs always get the best weapons. There is a 15% chance that a colony of kobalts will possess a robotic or automotive device of some kind.

Females will be found in a kobalt colony, equaling 50 % of the male population. Young kobalts are equal in number to about 10% of the adult males. 2-20 heavily protected eggs will also be found in the colony. Except for a few remarkable females who work through the hierarchy to become guards or are hatched with the Planar Travel mutation, most females and young are noncombative unless the colony is attacked. In battle, the non-guard males and females will carry an assortment of weapons including hand axes, short swords, daggers, short composite bows, javelins, and slings. Missile weapons will not exceed 50 % of an armed force, unless it is a raiding party in which everyone has a missile weapon and a hand-to-hand weapon. These fighters will usually carry a small, light shield of plastic or wood.

Kobalts have been encountered so infrequently in magic-oriented universes that they will likely be thought of as bluedyed kobolds. They use extreme care in planning any raids in the AD&D or GAMMA WORLD game universes, gathering intelligence through agents they can implicitly trust. Colonies of kobalts will go on raids into the AD&D game universe as infrequently as once a year, but the careful planning and the power of their technological weapons has allowed them to amass a class D treasure (see Monster Manual) and between 1000-8000 domars. Note that if an artifact from the GAMMA WORLD game is rolled up that none of the kobalts can use (such as a suit of man-sized Powered Assault Armor), it will be stored in the colony anyway and used for trading purposes. Kobalts enjoy bargaining as much as they do raiding, and do it more frequently, too. They use their financial resources to purchase more magical and technological equipment for their clan and to fortify their lairs. Kobalts have little desire to gain territory in either the AD&D or GAMMA WORLD game universes, preferring to remain virtually unknown and keep a low profile.

If confronting what appears to be a relatively weak party, the kobalts will demand all magical/technological items be turned over to them and will take a healthy cut of the party's money as well. Stronger parties are likely to be ambushed, but kobalts are not stupid and will avoid encounters with very tough adventurers, except through third parties. Kobalts have a heroic mythos, having completely dissociated themselves from their old lawful evil religion, and will only rarely surrender. Kobalts are incredibly brave under the most trying circumstances, a positive result of their long battle to survive in their hostile homeworld. They are equally able to operate as merchants or bandits as suits them best.

If encountered in the AD&D game, kobalts will have the hit points and "to hit" probabilities of 3 hit-dice monsters.
If found in the GAMMA WORLD game, they will have the hit points of 4 hit-dice (6-sided) monsters. While the type of hit dice changes from world to world, from 8sided to 6-sided, the hit point range is about the same. The hit points of an individual kobalt do not change when passing from one universe to the next. When using ranged weapons, kobalts use the appropriate attack tables for weapon type in the GAMMA WORLD game; in an AD&D game world, ranged weapons are treated as missile fire with appropriate penalties to hit at lh and 2h range distances. See tire "Mutants and Magic" section of the Dungeon Master's Guide for further information on integrating the AD&D and GAMMA WORLD game systems.

Any kobalt has a 1% chance of having an extra random mutation. If the mutation is beneficial, the kobalt may become a sergeant, guard, or leader.

Technological artifact table for kobalts

01-40 Pistol, random type
41-65 Energy weapon, random type
66-90 Grenade, random type
91-00 Any other artifact except robotic or automotive device.

Originally appeared in Polyhedron #18 (1984).


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## Shade (May 18, 2010)

The best way to handle the mutations may be something akin to the caveling.

Kobolds are humanoids.  Should these be monstrous humanoids, or even aberrations, due to the mutations?


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## Cleon (May 18, 2010)

Shade said:


> The best way to handle the mutations may be something akin to the caveling.
> 
> Kobolds are humanoids.  Should these be monstrous humanoids, or even aberrations, due to the mutations?




Hmm, these remind me of a "Super Kobold" monster idea I was playing around with many years ago.

Anyhow, of the choices I think Monstrous Humanoid is the best fit.

Since they're still basically Kobolds they'd remain Small and Reptilian.

We've also got the following:

3 Hit Dice.

Str 12, Int 15, Wis 14.

Their light sensitivity is worse than regular Kobolds. Not sure what to do with that.

Great resistance to mutation (maybe transmutation spells?) and poison.

I like the idea of adding a "mutations table" but it doesn't look like many Kobalts have mutations - 5% have this mass plane shift like power, 1% have some random mutation.

Maybe we should increase those odds a bit, otherwise we won't be having many weirdo blue reptilian dogmen muties for the PCs to meet.

Keep the 5% Planar Traveling but have something like 10-20% of the population be a mutant?


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## Shade (May 19, 2010)

Added the basics to Homebrews.



			
				Cleon said:
			
		

> Their light sensitivity is worse than regular Kobolds. Not sure what to do with that.




Perhaps increase to light blindness?

Light Blindness (Ex): Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds drow for 1 round. On subsequent rounds, they are dazzled as long as they remain in the affected area. 



			
				Cleon said:
			
		

> Great resistance to mutation (maybe transmutation spells?) and poison.




That appeals.  +4 bonus to both?  Also, a racial bonus on polymorph effects?  (While most of the polymorph spells will be covered by transmutation, some special abilities may not be that specific).



			
				Cleon said:
			
		

> I like the idea of adding a "mutations table" but it doesn't look like many Kobalts have mutations - 5% have this mass plane shift like power, 1% have some random mutation.
> 
> Maybe we should increase those odds a bit, otherwise we won't be having many weirdo blue reptilian dogmen muties for the PCs to meet.
> 
> Keep the 5% Planar Traveling but have something like 10-20% of the population be a mutant?




Sure.  Probably just have a mutation table for all, but have the bulk of the results be "no mutation".



> Kobalts have a tough, leathery scaled skin with a deep cobalt-blue color.






> ARMOR CLASS: 8 (leather equivalent)




Does this suggest natural armor bonus is +2 (like leather's armor bonus?)


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## Cleon (May 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> Perhaps increase to light blindness?
> 
> Light Blindness (Ex): Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds drow for 1 round. On subsequent rounds, they are dazzled as long as they remain in the affected area.




Good idea! Let's use that.



Shade said:


> That appeals.  +4 bonus to both?  Also, a racial bonus on polymorph effects?  (While most of the polymorph spells will be covered by transmutation, some special abilities may not be that specific).




So something like:

*Resist Mutation and Poison (Ex):* A kobalt has a +4 bonus on its saving throws against all transmutation spells and polymorph effects, including body-warping powers such as a chaos beast's corporeal instability power. It also has a +4 bonus on its saving throws against poison, including radiation poisoning.



Shade said:


> Sure.  Probably just have a mutation table for all, but have the bulk of the results be "no mutation".




So, a percentile table with beneficial mutations on the 1-20 results and a "no mutation" on 21-80? That way you can roll 1d20 for a kobalt you know has a mutation.



Shade said:


> Does this suggest natural armor bonus is +2 (like leather's armor bonus?)




It suggest to me they're wearing leather armour.

However I am fine with giving them +2 NA. A regular kobold's got +1, and these chaps are supposed to be tougher.


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## Shade (May 19, 2010)

Cleon said:


> *Resist Mutation and Poison (Ex):* A kobalt has a +4 bonus on its saving throws against all transmutation spells and polymorph effects, including body-warping powers such as a chaos beast's corporeal instability power. It also has a +4 bonus on its saving throws against poison, including radiation poisoning.




Fantastic!



Cleon said:


> So, a percentile table with beneficial mutations on the 1-20 results and a "no mutation" on 21-80? That way you can roll 1d20 for a kobalt you know has a mutation.




Yeah, good idea.

Shall we limit the futuristic weapons to an underbar, or incorporate them into the main stats?


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## Cleon (May 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> Shall we limit the futuristic weapons to an underbar, or incorporate them into the main stats?




I'd put them in an underbar, and give the "regular dimension" version use alchemical weapons like tanglebags and alchemical fire.


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## Shade (May 20, 2010)

That appeals, with magical (or even psionic) weapons for the leaders.



> The kobalt leader, PTKs, and guards are often equipped with heavier sorts of technological or magical armor. If the weapons they use permit it, they will use small shields to improve their armor class. The leader of a kobalt clan possesses 1-3 technological artifacts from the table below and also uses magical weapons, if they exist in the treasure hoard and are of the right size. Distributed among the rest of the guards and the PTKs will be 2-16 other technological devices with 1-4 energy cells per device if required. The leader and PTKs always get the best weapons. There is a 15% chance that a colony of kobalts will possess a robotic or automotive device of some kind.




Racial bonus on Use Magic Device/Use Psionic Device?



> Prolonged experience in underground living makes them 75% likely to detect slopes, 60% likely to tell new construction, and 50% likely to know the approximate depth underground and the direction of travel.




Stonecunning?


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## Cleon (May 20, 2010)

Shade said:


> That appeals, with magical (or even psionic) weapons for the leaders.




I think we can leave the magic items to its normal treasure/NPC equipment.

Shall we give them +2 NA then?



Shade said:


> Racial bonus on Use Magic Device/Use Psionic Device?
> 
> Stonecunning?




I'd say yes to both.

+2 racial bonus to UMD/UPD?

*Stonecunning (Ex):* A kobalt has a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn't stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A kobalt who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a kobalt can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A kobalt can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up.

The way these chaps are developing I'm thinking they may get a "Kobalts as Player Characters" entry and a LA.


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## Shade (May 20, 2010)

Updated.

We might be able to repurpose this underbar...

Technological Noble Aboleths 
Some variant noble aboleths focus on technology, rather than magic or psionics. These noble aboleths have access to technology far beyond that of most other races. 

These "futuretech items" mimic the effects of standard magic items, but do not detect as magic, and are not vulnerable to antimagic and magic-suppressing effects. A noble aboleth may create these items using its item master ability.


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## freyar (May 20, 2010)

That's a good underbar to take.

It seems like we keep running into cobalt-blue kobolds somehow.  Didn't we do something very similar a while ago?

Anyway, I admit I got lost in all the text a little, but were there some of these with SLAs we should think about?


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## Shade (May 20, 2010)

freyar said:


> It seems like we keep running into cobalt-blue kobolds somehow.  Didn't we do something very similar a while ago?




You may be thinking of the cobalt dragon, which I decided to tie to kobolds.  



freyar said:


> Anyway, I admit I got lost in all the text a little, but were there some of these with SLAs we should think about?




Yeah, they were the result of random mutations, and we decided upon a standard "random mutation table", which would be a d100 with only the first 20 results granting a mutation.  As Cleon pointed out, this way you can simply roll a d20 if you know you want to grant a mutation to a specific kobalt.


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## freyar (May 21, 2010)

Shall we start on the table again?

Dunno about the cobalt kobolds.  These guys sound really really familiar.  Maybe we started converting them or something.  Just can't quite remember.


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## Cleon (May 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> We might be able to repurpose this underbar...
> 
> ...




That looks good. We could give them _wands of searing light_ for "laser pistols", _wands of produce flame _for "blasters", and _wands of hold person_ for "stunners".


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## Cleon (May 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> Shall we start on the table again?
> 
> Dunno about the cobalt kobolds.  These guys sound really really familiar.  Maybe we started converting them or something.  Just can't quite remember.




OK, we need to have their Mass Plane Travel power as the main ability, say from numbers 1-5. I'm thinking we should allow for the possibility of multiple mutations.

I'm thinking something like:

1 - Mass Plane Travel plus two other mutations (roll 1d12+8 for each)
2 - Mass Plane Travel plus one other mutations (roll 1d12+8)
3-5 - Mass Plane Travel
6 - Three mutations (roll 1d12+8 for each)
7-8 Two mutations (roll 1d12+8 for each)

Then we just need to come up with 12 interesting mutations for numbers 9 to 20. Something like heightened senses, carapace, vomit acid, extra arm, claws, long legs (increases speed) et cetera.


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## freyar (May 23, 2010)

Seems like an ok start.  We can look to cavelings and troll mutate lists for inspiration.  Besides the extra limbs and sensory organs, I'm fond of the internal organ from the troll mutate (like caveling modified anatomy), tail whip (from both), and acidic blood from the caveling.


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## Cleon (May 23, 2010)

freyar said:


> Seems like an ok start.  We can look to cavelings and troll mutate lists for inspiration.  Besides the extra limbs and sensory organs, I'm fond of the internal organ from the troll mutate (like caveling modified anatomy), tail whip (from both), and acidic blood from the caveling.




OK, let's make a start. I'm going to add a Reflex save to the Acidic Blood to make it less nasty, in the hope that it won't affect LA/CR.

Assuming we use all the proposals so far, we're only short two mutations.

*1* - _*Mass Plane Travel *_(see 3-5) plus two other mutations (roll 1d12+8 for each), The kobalt gains a +6 racial bonus on Charisma and a +4 racial bonus on Diplomacy checks  against other kobalts. its LA increases by 2 and its CR increases  by 1. 
*2* - *Mass Plane Travel *(see 3-5) plus one other mutations (roll 1d12+8). The kobalt gains a +4 racial bonus on Charisma and a +4 racial bonus on Diplomacy checks against other kobalts. Its LA increases by 1 and its CR increases by 1. 
*3-5* - _*Mass Plane Travel *_- functions like a 1/week _plane shift_, except the kobalt can shift itself and up to 40 other kobalts between two Prime Material planes. Caster level *X*. The kobalt gains a +4 racial bonus on Charisma and a +4 racial bonus on Diplomacy checks  against other kobalts. Its LA increases by 1. 
*6* - _*Three mutations *_(roll 1d12+8 for each mutation, the kobalt's LA increases by 1 and its CR increases by 1.
*7-8* - _*Two mutations *_- roll 1d12+8 for each mutation, The kobalt's LA increases by 1.
*9* - _*Heightened Senses *_- roll 1d6 twice and consult the following sub-tables:Number of Senses
1 = +2 racial bonus to one sense
2 = +2 racial bonus to two senses
3 = +2 racial bonus to three senses
4 = +4 racial bonus to one sense, -4 racial penalty to another sense
5 = +4 racial bonus to one sense
6 = +4 racial bonus to one sense, +2 racial bonus to another sense

Affected Sense (reroll duplicates) 
1-2 - Vision (bonus to Spot checks)
3-4 - Hearing (bonus to Listen checks)
5 - Touch (bonus to Search)
6 - Intuition (bonus to Sense Motive)​*10* - _*Carapace *_- Increase natural armour by 1d4 (1d4+1 if rolled twice, 1d4+2 if rolled three times)
*11* - _*Vomit Acid *_- 1/day. 20 ft. line of acid doing 2d4 damage, Con-based Reflex save for half, duplicate rolls allow 3/day if rolled twice, once every 1d4+1 rounds if rolled thrice.
*12* - _*Extra Arm *_- Gives an additional off-hand attack each time this mutation is rolled.
*13* - _*Claws*_ - Each hand can do 1d3 claw damage. (reroll duplicates)
*14* - _*Long Legs*_ - Increase base land speed by 10 feet each time this mutation is rolled.
*15* - _*Tail*_ - Secondary attack for 1d6 damage with 1.5 times Strength bonus.
*16* - _*Redundant Organs*_ - Gives Ability Asymmetry (see below),  granting a +2 bonus to Constitution and a -4 penalty to another ability  score, determined randomly. If this mutation is rolled a second time it grants light fortification (25% chance to negate critical hit), if Redundant Organs is rolled a third time it grants moderate fortification (75% negation of critical hits).
*17* - _*Acid Blood*_ - Deals 1d4 points of damage to any creature  attacking it with a slashing or piercing weapon who fails to succeed at a Reflex save. The save DC equals 10 plus the kobalt's Con bonus. (reroll duplicates)
*18* - _*Ability Asymmetry*_ - A randomly determined ability receives a +2 bonus and another ability score receives a -4 penalty. (1=Str, 2=Dex, 3=Con, 4=Int, 5=Wis, 6=Cha)
*19* - 
*20* -


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## freyar (May 24, 2010)

Somehow this seems a bit fiddly, rolling all the sensory mutations into one (and giving so many options).  I'd like to prune the table a bit, maybe just cutting the heightened senses to a +2 bonus to one sense (that stacks if rerolled).  We could additionally cut back to sight and hearing probably.  I'm also not entirely fond of haivng redundant organs being sort of the same as ability asymmetry; why not make it light, moderate, and heavy fortification?


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## Cleon (May 24, 2010)

freyar said:


> Somehow this seems a bit fiddly, rolling all the sensory mutations into one (and giving so many options).  I'd like to prune the table a bit, maybe just cutting the heightened senses to a +2 bonus to one sense (that stacks if rerolled).  We could additionally cut back to sight and hearing probably.  I'm also not entirely fond of haivng redundant organs being sort of the same as ability asymmetry; why not make it light, moderate, and heavy fortification?




I don't mind simplifying the senses, although I quite like the horrible complexity.

As for the redundant organs, I prefer it starting out with a Con bonus and then becoming Light/Moderate Fortification for several reasons.

1) Its set up so that the LA/CR adjustment is set by the number of mutations, so I wanted the mutations to be all more or less the same value. e.g. moderate fortification is a "triple mutation" worth +1 LA, +1 CR.
2) I didn't fancy giving them 100% immunity to criticals. They're not oozes or constructs, they still have vital organs even if they're hard to harm.
3) It seems fitting that a creature with Fortification has a better Con that its unfortified brethren.

Maybe we could have Redundant Organs be its "Con boosting" mutation, and have other mutations for Dex-boosting, Strength-boosting or Mental-attribute boosting (the classic "giant throbbing forehead syndrome"?


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## freyar (May 25, 2010)

That last suggestion might work, though fortification would be fun.  Hmmph.


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## Cleon (May 25, 2010)

freyar said:


> That last suggestion might work, though fortification would be fun.  Hmmph.




I think you're misunderstanding me, I'd like to keep the Fortification that multiple "Redundant Organs" results gives, but replace Ability Asymmetry with separate mutations for each ability. We could even make "Heightened Senses" the Wisdom-boosting mutation.

Something like:

_*Redundant Organs (Con) -
*_1st mutation - +2 Con bonus and -2 to another physical stat (determined randomly)
2nd mutation - Add Light Fortification
3rd mutation - Add Moderate Fortification

_*Grotesque Musculature (Str)
*_1st mutation - +2 Str bonus, -4 Dex bonus?
2nd & 3rd mutations - Increases Str bonus to +4 and +6 respectively?

_*Accelerated Reflexes (Dex)
*_1st mutation - +2 Dex?
2nd mutation - +4 Dex, -2 to another physical stat?
3rd mutation give it a few rounds of _haste_ every day?

_*Bulging Forehead (Int)
*_+2 Int, -2 to a randomly determined physical stat?
Racial bonuses to some Int-based skills?

_*Heightened Senses (Wis)*_
1st mutation - +2 racial bonus to Listen and Spot?
2nd mutation - +2 bonus to Wisdom, +2 racial bonus to Search and Sense Motive?
3rd mutation - Scent SQ and +4 racial bonus to Listen, Search, Sense Motive and Spot?

I've left out Charisma-boosting, because my proposed Plane Travel mutation already boosts Charisma.


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## freyar (May 25, 2010)

Having this kind of complicated stacking just seems too complex to me.  We haven't done anything this messy with other random tables.  Why not just say that each mutation either stacks or not (ie, reroll duplicates)?  Like we did for the troll mutates and cavelings?


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## Shade (May 25, 2010)

Agreed.  Way too much bookkeeping.


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## Cleon (May 26, 2010)

Shade said:


> Agreed.  Way too much bookkeeping.




But you play 3rd edition D&D, I thought you _liked_ bookkeeping.

Feel free to trim it down to taste.

Do you like the idea of having a separate mutation for each ability score bonus?


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## Shade (May 26, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Do you like the idea of having a separate mutation for each ability score bonus?




Sure, I'd be fine with that.


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## freyar (May 26, 2010)

Looking back at the original text, I think we've got quite an abundance of mutations already (it seems there should be 20% with planar travel and only 1% for everything else), so I think we don't need mutations that stack at all (ie, there shouldn't be multiple mutations and certainly not 3 of them at a time).  So I'll propose (with rejiggering probabilities and adjusting numbers to match caveling/troll mutate better):


1-5 - Mass Plane Travel - functions like a 1/week plane shift, except the kobalt can shift itself and up to 40 other kobalts between two Prime Material planes. Caster level X. The kobalt gains a +4 racial bonus on Charisma and a +4 racial bonus on Diplomacy checks against other kobalts. Its LA increases by 1.
6 - Carapace - Increase natural armour by +2
7 - Vomit Acid - 1/day. 20 ft. line of acid doing 2d4 damage, Con-based Reflex save for half.
8 - Extra Arm - Gives an additional off-hand attack.
9 - Claws - Each hand can do 1d3 claw damage. 
10 - Long Legs - Increase base land speed by 5 feet.
11 - Whiplike Tail - Secondary tail slap attack for 1d6 damage with 1.5 times Strength bonus.
12 - Redundant Organs -  The kobalt's extra organs grantslight fortification (25% chance to negate critical hit).
13 - Acid Blood - Deals 1d4 points of damage to any creature attacking it with a slashing or piercing weapon who fails to succeed at a Reflex save. The save DC equals 10 plus the kobalt's Con bonus.
14 - Strong - +2 racial bonus to Str.
15 - Agile - +2 racial bonus to Dex.
16 - Tough - +2 racial bonus to Con.
17 - Smart - +2 racial bonus to Int.
18 - Zen - +2 racial bonus to Wis.
19 - Strong Willed - +2 racial bonus to Cha.
20 - ??
21-100 - No mutation

I'm not sure planar travel requires the +4 to Cha, though the bonus on Diplomacy is good.  What if we just made it a +4 circumstance bonus to all Cha-based checks against other kobalts?

I'm also not sure I like the plain ability score bonuses.  They're boring.


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## Shade (May 26, 2010)

Agreed to dropping the Cha bonus on the planar travel.

I'd be fine with some more interesting replacement for some of the stat boosters.  I'd say keep the one that boosts Cha at the very least, and perhaps Str and Con.


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## freyar (May 26, 2010)

That's fair.  I'd like to hear what Cleon thinks, too.


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2010)

Me too.


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## Cleon (Jun 2, 2010)

freyar said:


> Looking back at the original text, I think we've got quite an abundance of mutations already (it seems there should be 20% with planar travel and only 1% for everything else), so I think we don't need mutations that stack at all (ie, there shouldn't be multiple mutations and certainly not 3 of them at a time).  So I'll propose (with rejiggering probabilities and adjusting numbers to match caveling/troll mutate better):
> 
> 
> 1-5 - Mass Plane Travel - functions like a 1/week plane shift, except the kobalt can shift itself and up to 40 other kobalts between two Prime Material planes. Caster level X. The kobalt gains a +4 racial bonus on Charisma and a +4 racial bonus on Diplomacy checks against other kobalts. Its LA increases by 1.
> ...




That looks OK.

The Plane-shifters are described as being influential among Kobalt society, so I want to give them some social boost. I liked a Cha bonus because
a 40-creature _plane shift_ would be equivalent to quite a high-level spell, implying a high ability linked to it.

Agree that the ability bonuses are boring as-is. How about adding a useful skill-bonus and a more flavourful name?

Something like:

14 - Grotesque Muscles - +2 racial bonus to Str and Intimidate checks.
15 - Twitchy - +2 racial bonus to Dexterity and Tumbling checks.
16 - Elastic Flesh - +2 racial bonus to Con and Escape Artist checks.
17 - Bulging Forehead - +2 racial bonus to Int and Use Magic Devices checks.
18 - Gimlet Eyes - +2 racial bonus to Wis and Spot checks.
19 - Soothing Voice - +2 racial bonus to Cha and Diplomacy checks.

As for the 20, how about.

20 - Enormous Nose - gains scent special quality, with a +4 bonus on Survival checks to track by scent.


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## Shade (Jun 2, 2010)

I like all that.  Freyar?


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## Cleon (Jun 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> I like all that.  Freyar?




Quiet around here, isn't it?

I've realized my previous wording of "+2 racial bonus to Str and Intimidate checks." is wrong, assuming we're still aiming for a bonus to the ability score it should be ""+2 racial bonus to Str and +2 racial bonus to Intimidate checks."

Putting it all together we've currently got:

1-5 - Mass Plane Travel - functions like a 1/week plane shift, except  the kobalt can shift itself and up to 40 other kobalts between two Prime  Material planes. Caster level X. The kobalt gains a +4 racial bonus on  Charisma and a +4 racial bonus on Diplomacy checks against other  kobalts. Its LA increases by 1.
6 - Carapace - Increase natural armour by +2
7 - Vomit Acid - 1/day. 20 ft. line of acid doing 2d4 damage, Con-based  Reflex save for half.
8 - Extra Arm - Gives an additional off-hand attack.
9 - Claws - Each hand can do 1d3 claw damage. 
10 - Long Legs - Increase base land speed by 5 feet.
11 - Whiplike Tail - Secondary tail slap attack for 1d6 damage with 1.5  times Strength bonus.
12 - Redundant Organs -  The kobalt's extra organs grants light  fortification (25% chance to negate critical hit).
13 - Acid Blood - Deals 1d4 points of damage to any creature attacking  it with a slashing or piercing weapon who fails to succeed at a Reflex  save. The save DC equals 10 plus the kobalt's Con bonus.
14 - Grotesque Muscles - +2 racial bonus to Strength and +2 racial bonus to Intimidate checks.
15 - Twitchy - +2 racial bonus to Dexterity and +2 racial bonus to Tumbling checks.
16 - Elastic Flesh - +2 racial bonus to Constitution and +2 racial bonus to Escape Artist checks.
17 - Bulging Forehead - +2 racial bonus to Intelligence and +2 racial bonus to Use Magic Devices  checks.
18 - Gimlet Eyes - +2 racial bonus to Wisdom and +2 racial bonus to Spot checks.
19 - Soothing Voice - +2 racial bonus to Charisma and +2 racial bonus to Diplomacy checks.
 20 - Enormous Nose - gains scent special quality, with a +4 bonus on  Survival checks to track by scent.


----------



## freyar (Jun 3, 2010)

I still don't really like the Cha bonus for the ones that get mass planar travel (the Diplomacy bonus is good), since I don't think high level SLAs need to have high ability scores (they just usually do to get the DCs up).  The CR on these guys isn't going to be any higher because of the planar travel, and that's what I associate with the ability scores more.  Not too big of a deal, though.


----------



## Shade (Jun 3, 2010)

Agreed with freyar here.  The leaders with that ability can still improve their Cha through normal ability score increases every 4 levels.

Updated.


----------



## freyar (Jun 3, 2010)

Any more SAs or SQs to consider?


----------



## Shade (Jun 4, 2010)

Only this...



> Their Infravision allows them to see any heated body at up to 60 meters (66 yards) at night or in darkness of any kind. They may detect the slight warmth that plants emit and find places on the ground where beings rested within the last hour; this latter ability allows them to track parties at night with 90% accuracy.




This suggests superior low-light vision and/or darkvision as far as 200 ft.  (Although I wouldn't go beyond 120 ft. like drow).

Do we want to do anything with the "night tracking"?


----------



## freyar (Jun 4, 2010)

I think I'd go with 120 ft darkvision, but this maybe suggests see in darkness (of even the magical variety).  For tracking, I'd maybe give them a Survival bonus or even just a bunch of ranks.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 5, 2010)

Shade said:


> Agreed with freyar here.  The leaders with that ability can still improve their Cha through normal ability score increases every 4 levels.
> 
> Updated.




Ah, but in the original stats the plane-shifters seem to be no stronger in combat then the regular ranks, but were still respected commanders.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 5, 2010)

Shade said:


> Only this...
> 
> This suggests superior low-light vision and/or darkvision as far as 200 ft.  (Although I wouldn't go beyond 120 ft. like drow).
> 
> Do we want to do anything with the "night tracking"?




That ability was a standard feature of infravision in AD&D that was lost in the edition upgrade (just look in the 1E Dungeon Master's Guide).

So, if you give it to kobalts I'll start arguing you should add it to every 3E critter with darkvision.

Easier to just drop it. If you want tracking you can just have a kobalt with the Big Nose mutation.


----------



## freyar (Jun 6, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Ah, but in the original stats the plane-shifters seem to be no stronger in combat then the regular ranks, but were still respected commanders.




I'm fine with a bonus on Diplomacy (or all Cha-based checks) against kobalts, just not a flat-out bonus to Cha itself.



Cleon said:


> That ability was a standard feature of infravision in AD&D that was lost in the edition upgrade (just look in the 1E Dungeon Master's Guide).
> 
> So, if you give it to kobalts I'll start arguing you should add it to every 3E critter with darkvision.
> 
> Easier to just drop it. If you want tracking you can just have a kobalt with the Big Nose mutation.




Good to know.  Let's drop the tracking bit, then.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 6, 2010)

freyar said:


> I'm fine with a bonus on Diplomacy (or all Cha-based checks) against kobalts, just not a flat-out bonus to Cha itself.




Well I guess I'd accept a bonus on Diplomacy checks (and maybe their Leadership score) regarding kobalts.



freyar said:


> Good to know.  Let's drop the tracking bit, then.




Suits me.


----------



## Shade (Jun 7, 2010)

I can live with a +2 bonus on Cha-based checks with other kobalts.

Updated.

Caster level for mass planar travel?

Skills: 24

Feats: 2


----------



## freyar (Jun 8, 2010)

Why don't we make it Su, since nothing in plane shift seems to depend on CL?  If we go Sp, then we need to decide an equivalent spell level, too.

How about 2 ranks each in the four skills they have racial bonuses in and also Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot?  Ambush skills always seem good for kobold-types.

Point Blank Shot, ?


----------



## Cleon (Jun 8, 2010)

freyar said:


> Why don't we make it Su, since nothing in plane shift seems to depend on CL?  If we go Sp, then we need to decide an equivalent spell level, too.
> 
> How about 2 ranks each in the four skills they have racial bonuses in and also Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot?  Ambush skills always seem good for kobold-types.




Sounds good. Divide the non-racial bonus skills' points evenly? That would make it:

Skill Ranks: Craft (trapmaking) 2, Hide 4, Listen 4, Move Silently 4, Profession (miner) 2, Search 2, Spot 4, Use Magic Device 2



freyar said:


> Point Blank Shot, ?




Hmm, Kobolds have Alertness but these fellows have Wisdom 14 so don't need that feat so badly.

They have to survive in very nasty conditions, so I'm thinking Great Fortitude to boost that +1 Fort save.


----------



## Shade (Jun 9, 2010)

All good.  Updated.


----------



## freyar (Jun 9, 2010)

CR 1.
Did the original text suggest an org line?


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2010)

> NO. APPEARING: 20-80 males (plus others; see below)






> The leader of a kobalt clan has 21-24 hit points and a retinue of guards (3-12) with 15-20 hit points each, protecting both him and the planar-traveling kobalts (PTKs). Another 4-16 guards with the same hit point range as above will be assigned as lair guards, crewing positions near the entrances. These guards are in addition to the other kobalts encountered.






> Females will be found in a kobalt colony, equaling 50 % of the male population. Young kobalts are equal in number to about 10% of the adult males. 2-20 heavily protected eggs will also be found in the colony. Except for a few remarkable females who work through the hierarchy to become guards or are hatched with the Planar Travel mutation, most females and young are noncombative unless the colony is attacked.




Standard Kobold Organization:  Gang (4–9), band (10–100 plus 100% noncombatants plus 1 3rd-level sergeant per 20 adults and 1 leader of 4th–6th level), warband (10–24 plus 2–4 dire weasels), tribe (40–400 plus 1 3rd-level sergeant per 20 adults, 1 or 2 lieutenants of 4th or 5th level, 1 leader of 6th–8th level, and 5–8 dire weasels)

So maybe...

Organization:  Gang (4–9), clan (20–80 plus 60% noncombatants plus plus 1 kobalt with mass planar travel mutation per 20 adults and 1 3rd-level guard per 20 adults and 1 leader of 4th–6th level), or colony (40–200 plus 1 kobalt with mass planar travel mutation per 20 adults and 1 3rd-level guard per 20 adults, 1 or 2 lieutenants of 4th or 5th level, and 1 leader of 6th–8th level)


----------



## freyar (Jun 10, 2010)

Looks good!


----------



## Cleon (Jun 12, 2010)

Shade said:


> Organization:  Gang (4–9), clan (20–80 plus 60% noncombatants plus plus 1 kobalt with mass planar travel mutation per 20 adults and 1 3rd-level guard per 20 adults and 1 leader of 4th–6th level), or colony (40–200 plus 1 kobalt with mass planar travel mutation per 20 adults and 1 3rd-level guard per 20 adults, 1 or 2 lieutenants of 4th or 5th level, and 1 leader of 6th–8th level)




That looks good, except for the surplus plus.


----------



## Shade (Jun 14, 2010)

Updated.

Aren't they a bit tough for CR 1?  A bugbear is CR 2, and has only 1 point higher damage bonus, an equal melee attack modifier, and a worse ranged modifier.  Plus, we've got the chance of mutations...

LA: +2?


----------



## freyar (Jun 14, 2010)

Ok, CR 2 it is.  I guess I was thinking they don't seem much better than gnolls in some ways, but I guess you're right.


----------



## Shade (Jun 15, 2010)

Updated.

Anything left?


----------



## freyar (Jun 15, 2010)

Thankfully, I think they're done.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 15, 2010)

freyar said:


> Ok, CR 2 it is.  I guess I was thinking they don't seem much better than gnolls in some ways, but I guess you're right.




I agree they look like a weak CR2. A bugbear outdoes them in damage output, but they've got much better saves.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 15, 2010)

Shade said:


> [fixed link]Updated[_link fixed_].
> 
> Anything left?




Just finishing off their "Kobalts as Characters".

Is the sample creature an elite (15, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10, 8),  non-elite array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8) or completely average (11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10) ability array?

Since it's got two odd and four even stats, that suggests it uses the elite array - which I guess makes sense considering these creatures are the product of an incredibly hostile, competitive environment.

That suggests an "elite array kobalt" would look something like:

Str 12, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 15, Wis 14, Cha 8
=> Str 14-2, Dex 13+0, Con 10+0, Int 15+0, Wis 12+2, Cha 8+0 ?
=> Strength -2, Wisdom +2 ?

However, if they have the "non-elite" array we would have to turn one of their even stats into an odd stat. I would suggest increasing the Con to 11, since they're supposed to be tough little blighters.

Str 12, Dex 13, Con 11, Int 15, Wis 14, Cha 8
=> Str 10+2, Dex 9+4, Con 11+0, Int 13+2, Wis 12+2, Cha 8+0 ?
=> Strength +2, Dexterity +4, Intelligence +2, Wisdom +2 ?

They also need a favoured class. I'm thinking Rogue, although I do see a case for Sorcerer like a kobold.

Putting that together, I suggest the following adjustments:

Abilities: Str 12, Dex 13, Con 11, Int 15, Wis 14, Cha 8

*Kobalts as Characters*
Most kobalt leaders are fighters or fighter/rogues.

The sample kobalt presented above had the following ability scores before racial  adjustments: Str 10, Dex 9, Con 11, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 8. 

Kobalt characters possess the following racial traits:


Strength +2, Dexterity +4, Intelligence +2, Wisdom +2.
Size Small.
A kobalt’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Racial Hit Dice: A kobalt begins with two levels of monstrous humanoid (reptilian), which provide 3d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +3, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +1, Ref +3, and Will +3.
Racial Skills: A kobalt’s humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 6 ×  (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Craft (trapmaking), Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Profession (miner), Search, Spot and Use Magic Device. Kobalts have a +2 racial bonus on Craft (trapmaking), Profession (miner), Search, and Use Magic Device checks.
Racial Feats: A kobalt’s monstrous humanoid levels give it two feats.
+2 natural armor bonus.
Special Qualities (see above): Light blindness, mutations, resist mutation and poison, stonecunning
Automatic Languages: Draconic. Bonus Languages: Common, Elven, Goblin, Gnoll, Orc.
Favored Class: Rogue.
Level Adjustment: +2.


----------



## Shade (Jun 16, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Is the sample creature an elite (15, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10, 8),  non-elite array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8) or completely average (11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10) ability array?




None of the above, since it has racial HD.  It would fall into the "add/subtract from 10 for even scores, 11 for odd scores" method.  See the bugbear or gnoll for an example.  That's what's great about monsters with racial HD...making 'em playable characters is an afterthought, and less work.  

Thus, its scores are Str +2, Dex +2, Int +4, Wis +4, Cha -2.

Favored class rogue is fine.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> None of the above, since it has racial HD.  It would fall into the "add/subtract from 10 for even scores, 11 for odd scores" method.  See the bugbear or gnoll for an example.  That's what's great about monsters with racial HD...making 'em playable characters is an afterthought, and less work.
> 
> Thus, its scores are Str +2, Dex +2, Int +4, Wis +4, Cha -2.
> 
> Favored class rogue is fine.




Erm, it is one of the above then, namely the third one "completely average (11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10)", or near enough for government work.

I did like the idea of giving regular kobalts the non-elite array but am OK making them bog standard stat arrays.


----------



## freyar (Jun 17, 2010)

So, are they done after that section is added?


----------



## Cleon (Jun 17, 2010)

freyar said:


> So, are they done after that section is added?




I think so, with the appropriate stat changes. The only thing I'm slightly worried about is the LA and whether a "PC" kobalt should roll mutations on a d20 or a d100.

Is LA +2 high enough? They've got good ability scores and NA, so could make nasty rogues and spellcasters. I suppose their racial HD ameliorates this problem somewhat.

Oh, by the way the Updated link in post #126 is broken - it's got "http://http//www.enworld.org/forum/general...ass:  Rogue.
[*]Level Adjustment: +2.
[/LIST]


----------



## Shade (Jun 17, 2010)

Updated.

Perhaps we should just add to the LA:  "A kobalt with a mutation has an additional +1 LA"?


----------



## freyar (Jun 18, 2010)

That's probably sufficient.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Perhaps we should just add to the LA:  "A kobalt with a mutation has an additional +1 LA"?




We can just change the last racial adjustment line to:


Level Adjustment: +2 (A kobalt with a mutation has +3 Level Adjustment).
That should cover it.


----------



## Shade (Jun 21, 2010)

Updated.

Finished?


----------



## freyar (Jun 21, 2010)

I hope so!


----------



## Cleon (Jun 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> I hope so!




It's OK by me.


----------



## Shade (Jun 30, 2010)

*Frost Treants*
The trees are frost treants, an evil variety of treant. If the PCs move to within 20 feet, take any hostile action, or leave the path, they attack.

*Frost Treants (15):* INT: Average (10); AL: CE; AC: 0; MV: 12; HD: 7; HP: 38 each (seven in front group) 10 (eight in rear guard); THAC0: 13; #AT: 2; DMG: 2d8; SA: nil (these treants cannot animate the tree around them); SD: Never surprised; SZ: H; ML: 15.

Frost treants hate all living, breathing things, but they tend to attack sentient beings rather than animals. They will continue to attack until they or the PCs are dead. The runestone lies in a clearing further down the path past the frost treants. The treants will not enter the clearing, so if the party can win their way past the seven that were at the front of the party, they will be safe from further attacks by them.

Originally appeared in Polyhedron #116 (1996).

These aren't very exciting as written.  Perhaps we can take the "frost" aspect a bit further than simply making them evil.  Maybe they are cold-weather trees, such as pine trees, and have some cold-based abilities?


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## Cleon (Jul 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> *Frost Treants*
> The trees are frost treants, an evil variety of treant. If the PCs move to within 20 feet, take any hostile action, or leave the path, they attack.
> 
> *Frost Treants (15):* INT: Average (10); AL: CE; AC: 0; MV: 12; HD: 7; HP: 38 each (seven in front group) 10 (eight in rear guard); THAC0: 13; #AT: 2; DMG: 2d8; SA: nil (these treants cannot animate the tree around them); SD: Never surprised; SZ: H; ML: 15.
> ...




Something about the "hate all living, breathing things" makes me think Undead Cold Treants.


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2010)

I could go for that.  Treants that succumbed to death from cold?


----------



## Cleon (Jul 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> I could go for that.  Treants that succumbed to death from cold?




That's the idea.

Leafless branches, trunks split open by frozen water, icicles dangling from every twig, heart filled with frozen malice.

Although I'd be as happy making them standard Plant monsters with the Cold subtype. Malevolent conifers to the benevolent deciduous nature of regular treants.

Their stats seem identical to a standard AD&D Treant except for them lacking the animate tree ability.

I'm getting tempted to do two different monsters, a "living" and an "undead" Frost Treant.

The living version could have the ability to throw a shower of needles to pincushion foes, the undead one could be able to feel the warm breath of its victims from a javelin's throw away, and freeze them to death with its aura (like brown mold?).


----------



## Shade (Jul 2, 2010)

What the hell, let's go with both versions.  

Retain the name "Frost Treant" for the living, conifer version?   Call the undead version a "Hoartree" or "Rimetrunk"?


----------



## Cleon (Jul 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> What the hell, let's go with both versions.
> 
> Retain the name "Frost Treant" for the living, conifer version?   Call the undead version a "Hoartree" or "Rimetrunk"?




I'll agree to Frost Treant for the Cold-subtype Plant but "Hoartree rimetrunk" doesn't suit me.

It seems a bit rather "4th edition" to me and sounds disturbingly like the name of a Treant pornstar... 

If we start on the Frost Treant first we'll hopefully be able to think up a better name for the Undead variety.

So, start with a regular Treant and give it the Cold subtype.

Do we want to modify its ability scores any, or shall we just slap on a few powers to substitute for its lack of animate tree?


----------



## Shade (Jul 2, 2010)

I could see a conifer being less physically strong than a "mighty oak".  So maybe drop Str a bit.

Boost Con a tad for the environmental extremes?


----------



## Cleon (Jul 3, 2010)

Shade said:


> I could see a conifer being less physically strong than a "mighty oak".  So maybe drop Str a bit.
> 
> Boost Con a tad for the environmental extremes?




-4 Strength, +2 Con?

-2 to all their Mental stats, since they're Average Intelligence (8-10)?


----------



## freyar (Jul 6, 2010)

These will become fun, I think!  As for names, I kind of like "hoartree" all by itself.  Or even "hoartreant."

Agreed to Cleon's proposed stat changes.  And we might borrow the needles from the manticore.


----------



## Shade (Jul 6, 2010)

We can borrow this borrowing (minus the poison).  

Poison Needle Volley (Ex): With a flick of its branches, a killer spruce can loose a volley of six poisonous needles as a standard action (make an attack roll for each needle). This attack has a range of 180 feet with no range increment. All targets must be within 30 feet of each other. The killer spruce can launch only 36 needles in any 24-hour period.


----------



## Shade (Jul 7, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

Do we want to add some cold damage?   If so, add it to the needles as well?

Other special abilities?   Maybe it can slough piles of snow off its upper body to create a mini-avalanche or otherwise bury/impede foes?


----------



## freyar (Jul 8, 2010)

How about 1d6 cold to the slams, nothing on the needles, and an aura of cold that does 1d4 to creatures within 5 ft or so?

Maybe 1/day it can dump snow to create difficult terrain (per RAW, snow cuts your speed in half) over some area.


----------



## Shade (Jul 8, 2010)

Great ideas!

Updated.

Any more special abilities, or are we ready for skills and feats?


----------



## Cleon (Jul 10, 2010)

Shade said:


> We can borrow this borrowing (minus the poison).
> 
> Poison Needle Volley (Ex): With a flick of its branches, a killer spruce  can loose a volley of six poisonous needles as a standard action (make  an attack roll for each needle). This attack has a range of 180 feet  with no range increment. All targets must be within 30 feet of each  other. The killer spruce can launch only 36 needles in any 24-hour  period.




That Needle Volley looks fine to me.



freyar said:


> How about 1d6 cold to the slams, nothing on the needles, and an aura of cold that does 1d4 to creatures within 5 ft or so?
> 
> Maybe 1/day it can dump snow to create difficult terrain (per RAW, snow cuts your speed in half) over some area.




I'd rather leave the cold attacks for the Undead version.

How about giving it the ability to move over ice and snow without penalty? 

Maybe give it some kind of climbing ability, on the assumption some of these pines live on frozen mountains?


----------



## freyar (Jul 11, 2010)

How about this?  Leave the cold damage and chillness aura for the undead version, but let the live version keep shed snow (since the undead ones probably won't have needles to hold the snow up).  

I'd agree to giving both the ability to move through/over ice and snow w/o penalty, and I'm willing to think about icewalking like a white dragon.


----------



## Shade (Jul 12, 2010)

freyar said:


> How about this?  Leave the cold damage and chillness aura for the undead version, but let the live version keep shed snow (since the undead ones probably won't have needles to hold the snow up).
> 
> I'd agree to giving both the ability to move through/over ice and snow w/o penalty, and I'm willing to think about icewalking like a white dragon.




I'll agree to that.


----------



## freyar (Jul 12, 2010)

Ok, let's see if Cleon will too.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 14, 2010)

freyar said:


> How about this?  Leave the cold damage and chillness aura for the undead version, but let the live version keep shed snow (since the undead ones probably won't have needles to hold the snow up).
> 
> I'd agree to giving both the ability to move through/over ice and snow w/o penalty, and I'm willing to think about icewalking like a white dragon.




Fine by me.


----------



## freyar (Jul 15, 2010)

Ok, then.  And I do think I like icewalking for them.


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## Cleon (Jul 15, 2010)

freyar said:


> Ok, then.  And I do think I like icewalking for them.




I think that's enough for the special abilities, so can we talk Skills and Feats.

Are the standard Treant's Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Power Attack still good?

We could swap Iron Will for Lightning Reflexes, to help differentiate these "slim pines" from regular "sturdy oak" treants. (Also it'll be handy for the Undead version, which won't get much use from Iron Will).


----------



## freyar (Jul 16, 2010)

Switching to Lightning Reflexes and keeping the rest sounds good to me.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 16, 2010)

freyar said:


> Switching to Lightning Reflexes and keeping the rest sounds good to me.




Let's do skills then!

A regular treant has 30 skill points the following ranks:

Skills: Diplomacy 0, Hide 0, Intimidate 5, Knowledge (nature) 5, Listen 5, Sense Motive 5, Spot 5, Survival 5

Those skills look pretty apt, but we'll have to shave off 10 ranks. How about cutting out the Knowledge and Sense Motive? I could see dropping Intimidate instead of Knowledge, but would like to keep them ignorant and menacing!

Skills: Hide 0, Intimidate 5, Listen  5, Spot 5, Survival 5


----------



## freyar (Jul 18, 2010)

Sounds just fine to me.


----------



## Shade (Jul 19, 2010)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: 8?

Alignment: Usually neutral evil?

Advancement: 8–16 HD (Huge); 17–21 HD (Gargantuan)?

Level Adjustment: +5?

Frost treants speak Treant, Common, and Sylvan?


----------



## Cleon (Jul 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Challenge Rating: 8?




I'd think their CR should be lower than a regular treant since they don't have Animate Trees, which effectively triples a treant's damage dealing capacity.

Challenge Rating 7? Maybe even 6?



Shade said:


> Alignment: Usually neutral evil?
> 
> Advancement: 8–16 HD (Huge); 17–21 HD (Gargantuan)?




Sounds good.



Shade said:


> Level Adjustment: +5?




Again, not having Animate Trees should lower their LA a bit.



Shade said:


> Frost treants speak Treant, Common, and Sylvan?




Sounds good (again!).


----------



## Shade (Jul 20, 2010)

Updated.

We just need flavor text and tactics.


----------



## freyar (Jul 21, 2010)

Actually, weren't we going to give them an ability to move unhindered through snow?  Or do we think icewalking covers it?

Frost treants typically open battle with a volley of needles.  Upon closing to melee range, they shed snow, making use of their reach and their opponents' limited mobility.


----------



## Shade (Jul 21, 2010)

Something like this?

Snow Striding (Ex):  A frost treant never suffers movement penalties in snow-covered spaces.


----------



## Mortis (Jul 21, 2010)

Shade said:


> Something like this?
> 
> Snow Striding (Ex):




I see a couple of options

1. Snow Striding - by using its 'feet' like snow shoes

or

2. Root Skiing (Ex): A frost treant can uproot itself as a standard action and use its roots to ski on. (Could even treat it as if it had the run feat for this).

Regards
Mortis


----------



## freyar (Jul 21, 2010)

Hmm, root skiing is intriguing, but I think snow striding is easier.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 21, 2010)

freyar said:


> Actually, weren't we going to give them an ability to move unhindered through snow?  Or do we think icewalking covers it?




I'm wondering whether icewalking isn't too much, I was thinking it could cover snow and icy slopes without penalty, not walk upside down from the ceiling if glacial caves!

Something like:

*Snowcrossing (Ex):* A frost treant's movement is never slowed or hampered by snowy or icy terrain.

*Slopewalking (Ex):* A frost treant's rootlike feet have a remarkable grip, allowing it to walk across steep slopes without penalty It must make Climb checks to cross sheer cliffs and other places a pine tree would not be able to take root.



freyar said:


> Frost treants typically open battle with a volley of needles.  Upon closing to melee range, they shed snow, making use of their reach and their opponents' limited mobility.




That looks good.


----------



## freyar (Jul 22, 2010)

Maybe we're going too far with these.  How about we give them Snow Striding/Snowcrossing/whatever we want to call it and call that enough?


----------



## Cleon (Jul 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> Maybe we're going too far with these.  How about we give them Snow Striding/Snowcrossing/whatever we want to call it and call that enough?




I'd be content with Snowstriding, I just liked the idea of Slopecrossing.


----------



## Shade (Jul 22, 2010)

Updated.

Anyone want to tackle the description and flavor text?


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## freyar (Jul 22, 2010)

Frost treants appear to be trees, like their deciduous kin, but they are instead evergreen.  Their boughs are typically covered with snow, and their eyes glitter with cold malice.

Like other treants, frost treants defend their forests, but their frigid hearts seethe with a hatred of all animal life, especially sentient beings.


That could probably be fleshed out a little.  This isn't my strong suit.


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## Shade (Jul 23, 2010)

That's a good start.  Do we want to mention how they feel about other treants?


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## Cleon (Jul 25, 2010)

freyar said:


> Frost treants appear to be trees, like their deciduous kin, but they are instead evergreen.  Their boughs are typically covered with snow, and their eyes glitter with cold malice.
> 
> Like other treants, frost treants defend their forests, but their frigid hearts seethe with a hatred of all animal life, especially sentient beings.
> 
> That could probably be fleshed out a little.  This isn't my strong suit.




How about...

_It looks like an old pine tree the wind had twisted into a vaguely human shape, with thick snow piled over its branches and needles. The deep green eyes, glittering with cold malice, are what gave it away._

Frost Treants are an evergreen relative of the regular treant, but are far more malevolent than their deciduous kin. Like other treants, frost treants defend their forests, but their frigid hearts seethe with a hatred of all animal life, especially sapient beings. They kill intruders regardless of whether they pose any threat to their trees.


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## freyar (Jul 26, 2010)

Oooh, nice.  We could add that they tolerate but are unfriendly toward other plant creatures including treants.


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## Shade (Jul 26, 2010)

Updated.

Ready for the undead cold treant?


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## Cleon (Jul 27, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Ready for the undead cold treant?




It looks done to me.


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## Shade (Jul 27, 2010)

Great!  So for the undead version, we'll need to agree upon a name.  Upthread, freyar and I both liked "Hoartree" or "Hoartreant".

We saved cold damage and this for it:

Chillness Aura (Su): A frost treant is continuously surrounded by an aura of bitter cold. All creatures within 5 feet of a frost treant suffer 1d4 points of cold damage each round.

What else?


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## freyar (Jul 28, 2010)

Well, change the description for one thing.  I believe we were also planning on dropping the needles and shed snow attacks.


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## Cleon (Jul 28, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, change the description for one thing.  I believe we were also planning on dropping the needles and shed snow attacks.




Yes, it's a dead tree so shouldn't have needles or enough twigs to carry enough snow.

I'm thinking an energy-draining attack, maybe one that does additional cold damage and leaves frozen solid corpses?

We've got the usual SRD cold spells to think of - _cone of cold_, _fire shield_ (_chill shield_ only), _freezing sphere_, _ice storm_, _wall of ice_ or _sleet storm_.

Any of those would be handy.

Either _unholy blight_ or _blight_ would seem to be thematically appropriate. How about a special attack that combines both effects, doing extra damage to Good creatures, Outsiders and Plants?

Speaking of which, can they create spawn? Maybe they can only turn other plant monsters or just other treants into more of their kind?


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## Shade (Jul 28, 2010)

All good potential abilities, but perhaps we should hammer down its theme?   Is it an undead standard treant that succumbed to cold?  Or is it an undead frost treant of some other genesis?


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## Cleon (Jul 29, 2010)

Shade said:


> All good potential abilities, but perhaps we should hammer down its theme?   Is it an undead standard treant that succumbed to cold?  Or is it an undead frost treant of some other genesis?




I was thinking undead frost treant or regular treant cursed by Cryonax.


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## freyar (Jul 30, 2010)

I'd go with undead frost treant, myself.  Maybe it's just a normal stage in the "life"-cycle of these bitter creatures.


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## Shade (Jul 30, 2010)

That works for me.  In that case, just take frost treant's ability scores (with no Con score, of course), and perhaps boost Cha a bit (as is common for undead templates)?


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## Cleon (Jul 31, 2010)

Making them ancient Frost Treants that have a "frozen death" is a good idea, and it fits with Hoar, since hoary means "white or gray with age; ancient", although I'm thinking you're also referencing Hoar_-Frost_ ""rime or white frost, the white particles formed by the freezing of the dew".

I still don't like "Hoartreants" as one word, so shall we call them "Hoar Treants" or "Hoar-Frost Treants"?.



Shade said:


> That works for me.  In that case, just take frost  treant's ability scores (with no Con score, of course), and perhaps  boost Cha a bit (as is common for undead templates)?




Sounds good. +6 Charisma, since we've been talking about giving them SLAs?

*Hoar-Frost Treant:* Str 25, Dex 8, Con --, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 16

They're going to have a serious hit point drop (averaging 4 points per die from losing +6 Con bonus but gaining d12 HD). Should we give them some better DR or a HP-increasing SQ to compensate?


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## freyar (Aug 1, 2010)

These don't feel like "unholy toughness" type of undead, so I'd probably go with a boosted DR.  Maybe slashing and cold iron?  Or add some kind of vampire-style fast healing?


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## Cleon (Aug 1, 2010)

freyar said:


> These don't feel like "unholy toughness" type of undead, so I'd probably go with a boosted DR.  Maybe slashing and cold iron?  Or add some kind of vampire-style fast healing?




Fast Healing doesn't feel right to me. I imagine them as stiff, cold, dead things whose wounds wouldn't close in a hurry.

DR/slashing and cold iron is a good idea. There's long been an association between Treants and Fey, and Hoar-Frost Treants seem a natural fit with the Unseelie Winter Court.


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## Shade (Aug 5, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Aug 5, 2010)

Make that extra cold damage on the slams be 1d6?

Are they more or less done after that?


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## Shade (Aug 5, 2010)

Cleon had some interesting ideas upthread:



Cleon said:


> Yes, it's a dead tree so shouldn't have needles or enough twigs to carry enough snow.
> 
> I'm thinking an energy-draining attack, maybe one that does additional cold damage and leaves frozen solid corpses?
> 
> ...


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## Cleon (Aug 5, 2010)

freyar said:


> Make that extra cold damage on the slams be 1d6?
> 
> Are they more or less done after that?




1d6 cold's fine by me.

I'm still tempted to toughen them up a bit.

Maybe energy drain or some cold SLAs.


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2010)

They are a bit weak compared to the standard treant (worse BAB, saves, hp).  I'd go for either energy drain or SLAs, but not both.  Preferences?


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## Cleon (Aug 6, 2010)

Shade said:


> They are a bit weak compared to the standard treant (worse BAB, saves, hp).  I'd go for either energy drain or SLAs, but not both.  Preferences?




Well how about giving it a couple of Su attacks and the ability to create spawn?

Something like:

*Energy Drain (Su):* Any living creature struck by a hoar-frost treant's natural attacks gains one negative level. For each negative level bestowed, the hoar-frost treant gains 5 temporary hit points.

*Frozen Blight (Su):* Once per day a hoar-frost treant  can create a 20 ft. radius emanation of unholy cold. Any living creature within this area takes 3d6 damage (half cold, half unholy) and is sickened for 1d4 rounds, if they succeed at a DC 16 Will save they take half damage and are not sickened.

Any plant creature that fails its Will save against frozen blight must also make a DC 16 Fortitude save or contract a supernatural disease, unholy blight:

_Unholy blight_: Supernatural disease—emanation, Fortitude DC 16, incubation period 1 minute; damage 1d6 Con and 1d6 Cha.

Any intelligent plant creature killed by unholy blight will rise as a Hoar-Frost Treant 1d4 days later.

The save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2010)

I like it all except calling the disease "unholy blight".  Using already-established game terms for something else is generally a design taboo.  How about "rime blight" or "frost blight"?   Or if you want to keep an "evilish" name, how about "malevolent blight" or "profane blight"?


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## Cleon (Aug 6, 2010)

Shade said:


> I like it all except calling the disease "unholy blight".  Using already-established game terms for something else is generally a design taboo.  How about "rime blight" or "frost blight"?   Or if you want to keep an "evilish" name, how about "malevolent blight" or "profane blight"?




Well since I was inspired by Mummy Rot, how about Hoar-Frost Rot?


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2010)

That works.  Plants tend to rot.  

Updated.


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## Cleon (Aug 7, 2010)

In that case all we have left is tactics.

*COMBAT*
Hoarfrost treants hate all animal life and are non too friendly towards plant life; they only tolerate the existence of plant creatures of evil alignment.

A hoarfrost treat spends most of its undeath standing immobile, pretending to be a mundane dead tree. If a living creature wanders nearby the hoarfrost treant charges into melee as quickly as possible. They prefer to save their frozen blight attack for multiple opponents, but will unleash it as a last-ditch strike against a single enemy if they are severely damaged.


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## freyar (Aug 8, 2010)

Well, I guess you guys have pretty much finished this off!


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## Cleon (Aug 8, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, I guess you guys have pretty much finished this off!




Hold on, we forgot the description!

Hmm...

_A monster like a dead tree shaped into a mockery of the human form, with a trunk split by frost and icicles dripping from its bare branches. The hatred in its eyes is as chilling as the unholy cold radiating from its body._


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## Shade (Aug 9, 2010)

Updated.  Finito?


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## freyar (Aug 10, 2010)

Done!  Well, up to any edits Cleon finds.


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## Cleon (Aug 11, 2010)

freyar said:


> Done!  Well, up to any edits Cleon finds.




I've given it a once-over and can't find anything wrong.


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## Shade (Aug 16, 2010)

*Armor Boar*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Arctic to temperate
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Family
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 2-12 (2d6)
ARMOR CLASS: 3
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 7
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 3-24 (3d8)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (6' tall at shoulder)
MORALE: Average (10)
XP VALUE: 650

The armor boar is a giant-sized animal and is readily identified by its peculiar armor. The armor is actually hair, thick and stiff and similar to the horns of a rhinoceros. From a distance, the creatures appear to be simply large, shaggy boars with hair that sticks out in all directions. Closer, the hair looks like a spiny shell.

The boar is also noted for its elephant-sized tusks that nearly touch the ground. Most boars are 6' high at the shoulder and 10' long. However, some larger specimens have been sighted.

Combat: This ill-tempered and aggressive brute attacks quickly and with no planning. It will charge at creatures wandering through its territories. And when the boar itself is wandering, it will attack creatures it perceives as a threat or as competition for food.

It has one attack-a goring thrust made with its long tusks. In addition, the boar's armor also can inflict damage. Any creature striking, biting, or leaping upon the boar suffers 3-12 (3d4) points of damage because of the boar's penetrating hair-spines.

The boar does not back down from combat, fighting to the death.

Habitat/Society: Armor boars live in small family groups. A boar mates only once every two years, and it is more prolific than other giant boars, having up to 1d10 offspring per litter. If the maximum number of boars are encountered, the family will likely have one boar, one sow, and 10 young. The adult boars are very protective of the young and will fight to the death to defend them. Armor boars often make their homes in caves or in densely overgrown wooded areas. They can be found in hills, mountains, forests, broken terrain, and occasionally on plains.

Ecology: A voracious omnivore, the armor boar will attempt to eat anything within reach and will go out of its way to catch plump rodents. Although it is fond of flesh, it usually ends up eating more vegetable matter than other boars do because its size does not allow it to chase prey into hollow logs and other hiding spots. A boar which develops a taste for vegetables is quite capable of destroying a garden all by itself. Families of armor boars have been known to destroy entire fields. Thus, armor boars are considered a major nuisance in settled regions-a nuisance typically ill-armed peasants and farmers cannot deal with on their own.

While the armor boar has few natural predators, they are sometimes sought by butchers, as the meat is rich and sweet. However, an armor boar is difficult to butcher because of its hard, spiny shell. Butchers who have developed a technique for removing the armor increase their profits by selling the carapace to armorers who make it into shields and breastplates.

Armor made from the carapace is the equivalent protection of banded mail, plus it has a special property. Creatures striking the armor or shield with their hands or other body parts suffer 1-8 pounds of damage because of the remaining spiny ruffs. The armor is also prized because it will not rust.

Craftsmen value the tusks and lard of armor boar, which they make into art objects and soap, respectively.

Originally appeared in Polyhedron #67 (1992).


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## Cleon (Aug 16, 2010)

Shade said:


> *Armor Boar*
> SIZE: M (6' tall at shoulder)
> 
> The boar is also noted for its elephant-sized tusks that nearly touch the ground. Most boars are 6' high at the shoulder and 10' long. However, some larger specimens have been sighted.




That sure doesn't sound like it's Medium-sized to me, despite what it says.

It's definitely Large!

Seems to have a lot of similarity to the SRD Dire Boar.

Take a Dire Boar, increase the NA and add a spiny defense SQ?


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## Shade (Aug 16, 2010)

That sounds about right.  The gore damage might be a bit higher as well, or have augmented critical.


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## Cleon (Aug 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> That sounds about right.  The gore damage might be a bit higher as well, or have augmented critical.




Yes, 3-24 does seem to be a lot of damage. I'd rather raise the damage than give them augmented critical - it says their horns are big, but there's nothing about them being sharp.

A regular boar's tusks are 1d8, going to Large would make them 2d6.

Make the armor boar's tusks 2d8?

Statwise I'm thinking we should increase the Constitution. A Large Advanced Boar has Con 21 and a Dire Boar Con 17, so how about Con 19?

What armour class do you fancy for them, the original's AC 3 translates to AC 17 in 3E, but I could see it going a bit higher, probably +12 NA or so, halfway between a Dire Boar's +6 NA and a Razor Boar's +17 NA.

I'll put in +8 NA for the time being to match the original's AC.

Maybe throw in DR X/- or light fortification as well?

Are we keeping it a poor Will save regular animal or making it a Dire animal?

Anyhow, here's a rough draft:

*Armor Boar*
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 7d8+28 (59 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 17 (–1 size, +8 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 17 [+12 natural?]
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+17
Attack: Gore +12 melee (2d8+12)
Full Attack: Gore +12 melee (2d8+12)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Ferocity, "spiny defense?"
Special Qualities: DR 5/–, fortification, low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +5, Will +8
Abilities: Str 27, Dex 10, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 8
Skills: Listen +8, Spot +8
Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Iron Will
Environment: Temperate forests
Organization: Solitary or herd (2–12)
Challenge Rating: 5?
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 8–16 HD (Large); 17–21 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: —

_Description_

Armor boars grow up to 12 feet long and 6 feet tall at the shoulder, they weigh as much as X pounds.

*Combat*
Armor boars are dire animals, with all good saving throws.

Tactics.

*Ferocity (Ex):* An armor boar is such a tenacious combatant that it continues to fight without penalty even while disabled or dying.

*Fortification (Ex):* Whenever a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on an armor boar, there is a 50% chance (75% for Huge-sized armor boars) that the special attack is negated and its damage is rolled normally.

*Spiny Defense** (Ex):* ?


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## Shade (Aug 17, 2010)

I'm fine with making it "dire" if you'd like.


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## Cleon (Aug 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'm fine with making it "dire" if you'd like.




As you like, I'll update it appropriately.


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## Shade (Aug 19, 2010)

I fancy DR 3/- *and* light or moderate fortification.


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## freyar (Aug 19, 2010)

Go with DR 5/- and light fortification, if you ask me.


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## Cleon (Aug 20, 2010)

freyar said:


> Go with DR 5/- and light fortification, if you ask me.




That's fine by me.

I'll update the rough cut.

EDIT: On second thought, I gave it a 50% fortification with 75% to a Huge armor boar based on my proposed stats for a 3E Pangolin, if you can remember that far back.

What would you like to use for the "Spiny Defense"? We've got a number of ready-to-use SAs that would fit.

Oh, and is +8 NA enough, or should we increase it?:ENDEDIT


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## freyar (Aug 20, 2010)

I think I'd borrow these from the barbed devil:

Barbed Defense (Su): Any creature striking a barbed devil with handheld weapons or natural weapons takes 1d8+6 points of piercing and slashing damage from the devil’s barbs. Note that weapons with exceptional reach, such as longspears, do not endanger their users in this way.

Impale (Ex): A barbed devil deals 3d8+9 points of piercing damage to a grabbed opponent with a successful grapple check.

Not 100% sure if Impale is exactly what we want, but it's close.

Go to +12 NA, I think.


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## Cleon (Aug 20, 2010)

freyar said:


> I think I'd borrow these from the barbed devil:
> 
> Barbed Defense (Su): Any creature striking a barbed devil with handheld weapons or natural weapons takes 1d8+6 points of piercing and slashing damage from the devil’s barbs. Note that weapons with exceptional reach, such as longspears, do not endanger their users in this way.




That'll do I think. The original's spines were auto-hit to.



freyar said:


> Impale (Ex): A barbed devil deals 3d8+9 points of piercing damage to a grabbed opponent with a successful grapple check.
> 
> Not 100% sure if Impale is exactly what we want, but it's close.




I wouldn't bother with the Impale.



freyar said:


> Go to +12 NA, I think.




I haven't quite decided which way to go. I don't mind the idea of it being (relatively) easy to hit but tough to damage.


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## Shade (Aug 23, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

I used the standardized dire and fortification abilities.

I prefer the +12 NA as well. I'm not sure if we should retain impale, but we should at least note that spined defense applies to creatures grappling the boar.


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## Cleon (Aug 24, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> I used the standardized dire and fortification abilities.
> 
> I prefer the +12 NA as well. I'm not sure if we should retain impale, but we should at least note that spined defense applies to creatures grappling the boar.




Sure!

Revising...

*Spined Defense (Ex):* Any creature grappling an armor boar or striking it with handheld weapons or natural  weapons takes 1d8+6 points of piercing and slashing damage from the  boar's spines. Note that weapons with exceptional reach, such as  longspears, do not endanger their users in this way.


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## Shade (Aug 24, 2010)

Updated.



> CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Arctic to temperate






> Armor boars often make their homes in caves or in densely overgrown wooded areas. They can be found in hills, mountains, forests, broken terrain, and occasionally on plains.




"Any cold or temperate land"?

Should they have extended reach with their long tusks?

CR 5?

Armor boars grow up to 12 feet long and 6 feet tall at the shoulder, they weigh as much as X pounds.


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## Cleon (Aug 25, 2010)

Shade said:


> "Any cold or temperate land"?




Yes, that'd make sense.



Shade said:


> Should they have extended reach with their long tusks?




Hmm, the tusks are "elephant-sized" and SRD Elephants have 10-foot reach, so reach 5 ft. (10 ft. with gore) does make sense.



Shade said:


> CR 5?




Hmm, I guess so. They're certainly tougher than a CR 4 Dire Boar. I'm not sure they're a whole Challenge Rating tougher, but 3E doesn't allow for any finer graduation.



Shade said:


> Armor boars grow up to 12 feet long and 6 feet tall at the shoulder, they weigh as much as X pounds.




Well an armour boar is twice as big as a regular boar, the same as a Dire Boar.

a typical wild boar weighs about 100-300 pounds depending on variety, and record size specimens can weigh twice that much.

That means a Dire Boar is a "double size" version of a 250 lb boar - big but not enormous.

Hows about making the Armour Boar weigh about 3000 pounds? All that armour's probably not light, and that's still in a reasonable weight range (equivalent to a 375 pound regular-scale Boar).


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## Shade (Aug 25, 2010)

Updated.  Finished?


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## freyar (Aug 25, 2010)

Looks pretty well done to me.


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## Cleon (Aug 26, 2010)

freyar said:


> Looks pretty well done to me.




Its flat-footed AC should be 21, not 20 but apart from that it's fine.

I'm not fond of it having Dire as an (Ex) Special Ability described under Combat but not listed in its Special Qualities line.


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## Shade (Aug 26, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Its flat-footed AC should be 21, not 20 but apart from that it's fine.
> 
> I'm not fond of it having Dire as an (Ex) Special Ability described under Combat but not listed in its Special Qualities line.




I'm not either.  That was on oversight.   Fixed.

Next...

*Hagertral*
AC: 2
HD: 3+1
MV: 90"(30")/flying 150"(50")
#AT: 3
D: 1-4/1-4/1-6
No. Appearing: 1-4 (1-8)
Save As: F3
Morale: 7
Treasure Type: C, T
Alignment: N

A Hagertral is a small two-legged creature with huge yellow and pink feathered wings and greenish brown fur. It has one great eye in the center of its face, no nose, and a rather large mouth with two rows of very sharp teeth. The Hagertral has a forked tongue that it uses to "smell" with, much like that of a snake. Its body resembles a human's but instead of hands and feet it has paws with long retractable claws.

The Hagertral lives high in the mountains with a mate and usually 1-4 young. This creature, being somewhat intelligent, worships the sky as supreme goddess of all. As a rule the Hagertrals will shun humans and their kind, although they are capable of the Common speech. Their own language, which consists of a series of whistles, grunts, moans and clicks, is too complex for anyone but Hagertrals to understand without magical aid.

For the most part, Hagertrals will attack any intruder or stranger first, and then (when they consider it safe) they'll ask questions. When engaging in combat, the Hagertral will use its mouth and hand claws (it will not use the claws on its feet to attack with, as these are reserved for carrying things when flying). Some Hagertrals have been known to use weapons, but they are magic ones taken from some adventurer who challenged them and failed.
Hagertrals are meat eaters. Their favorite food is mountain fowl, but they also enjoy monkey, rabbit, fish and halfling.

Hagertrals never keep their wealth in their lair. They fear that by doing so they invite thieves, who might harm or capture their young (in some mountain villages and cities, a young Hagertral is worth about 200 gp); so instead, they hide their treasure in the wilderness or on high isolated mountains.

Originally appeared in Polyhedron #2 (1981).


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## freyar (Aug 26, 2010)

Monstrous humanoid, maybe?

I feel like I'm on a quiz show with some of these.


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## Shade (Aug 26, 2010)

_freyar...Come on down!  You're the next contestant on Classify that Creature!_ 

Monstrous Humanoid seems a pretty good fit.  About the only other thing I can see is Magical Beast.


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## Echohawk (Aug 27, 2010)

Shade said:


> Monstrous Humanoid seems a pretty good fit.  About the only other thing I can see is Magical Beast.



They look more monstrous humanoidy than magical beasty to me


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## Shade (Aug 27, 2010)

Echohawk said:


> They look more monstrous humanoidy than magical beasty to me




Indeed.  Sold!


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## freyar (Aug 27, 2010)

Next question: Small or Medium?  I'm going to take the one mention that they're "small" in a generic sense to argue that they should be Small in the rules sense, too.


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## Shade (Aug 27, 2010)

I'm fine with Small.


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## freyar (Aug 28, 2010)

Not really seeing anything in the way of special abilities.  Just a couple of 1d4 claws and a 1d6 bite for natural weapons.


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## Cleon (Aug 28, 2010)

Small Monstrous Humanoid looks an apt fit to me, too.

There doesn't seem to be much to these creatures. Their 3+1 Hit Dice and 1-4/1-4/1-6 claw/claw/bite suggest they're got respectable Strength and Constitution scores despite being Small, maybe 12-13?

Their high AC and flight suggests a good Dexterity too - 16-17 or so?

For their mental stats we haven't got anything to go on apart from mention that their language is complicated. That suggests they can't be that dim, so maybe average human intelligence?

How about Str 13, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 7 ?


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## freyar (Aug 29, 2010)

Those abilities appeal to me.


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## Cleon (Aug 30, 2010)

freyar said:


> Those abilities appeal to me.




+4 natural armour to match the original's AC 2?


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## Shade (Aug 30, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.



> The Hagertral has a forked tongue that it uses to "smell" with, much like that of a snake.




Give 'em scent, like snakes?



> Its body resembles a human's but instead of hands and feet it has paws with long retractable claws.




Maybe a racial bonus on Climb checks, due to the claws and their mountain home?


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## Cleon (Aug 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> Give 'em scent, like snakes?
> 
> Maybe a racial bonus on Climb checks, due to the claws and their mountain home?




Those both sound fine ideas.

Since their hands and feet both have retractile claws, which pair do they attack with - most likely it depend on whether they're walking or flying? (e.g. hands on the ground, feet in the air)

We could also give them rake attacks for when they're grappling opponents, since they've got four sets of claws.


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## Shade (Aug 30, 2010)

If you want to stick with the spirit of the original (and I'll bet you do ), they won't have rake attacks:



> When engaging in combat, the Hagertral will use its mouth and hand claws (it will not use the claws on its feet to attack with, as these are reserved for carrying things when flying).


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## Cleon (Aug 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> If you want to stick with the spirit of the original (and I'll bet you do ), they won't have rake attacks:




Excellent point! Better scrub the rakes then.

They've got really good treasure (C, T) for 3 HD monsters that gather in groups of 1-6, and they leave it lying about on mountain peaks - what shall we do with that?

At the very least I'd like to mention magic weapons in the "items" entry, since it notes they use any magic weapons they possess.


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## Shade (Aug 30, 2010)

How about:  Standard coins, standard goods, double items (mostly weapons)?

We'll need maneuverability for their flight.  Average?  Good?

They feed primarily on mountain fowl, so they'll need to either be decent fliers or good at stealth.

Skills: 12 ranks
Hide, Listen, Move Silently Spot?

Wanna give 'em a racial bonus on any or all of those four?

Feats: 2
Multiattack, Stealthy?


----------



## freyar (Aug 30, 2010)

This all looks good!

I'd go with good maneuverability and a modest racial bonus on all four skills.  Say +2?


----------



## Shade (Aug 31, 2010)

Updated.

Environment: Any mountains?

Organization: Solitary, family (mated pair plus 2 noncombatant young), or x (3-8)

Challenge Rating: 2?

Alignment: Usually neutral?

Advancement: 4-6 HD (Small)? 

Level Adjustment: +3?  Or "-", since they don't use tools?


----------



## Cleon (Aug 31, 2010)

Shade said:


> How about:  Standard coins, standard goods, double items (mostly weapons)?
> 
> We'll need maneuverability for their flight.  Average?  Good?
> 
> They feed primarily on mountain fowl, so they'll need to either be decent fliers or good at stealth.




They could just raid nests, like many humans that eat wild birds. Being fliers they can easily reach birds roosting on cliffs.



freyar said:


> This all looks good!
> 
> I'd go with good maneuverability and a modest racial bonus on all four skills.  Say +2?




Good and +2s are fine by me.



Shade said:


> Environment: Any mountains?




Well it doesn't specify a climate, so I would go along with that.



Shade said:


> Organization: Solitary, family (mated pair plus 2 noncombatant young), or x (3-8)




Organization: Solitary, family (mated pair plus 2 noncombatant young), or nest (3-8) ?



Shade said:


> Challenge Rating: 2?
> 
> Alignment: Usually neutral?
> 
> Advancement: 4-6 HD (Small)?




That all looks reasonable.



Shade said:


> Level Adjustment: +3?  Or "-", since they don't use tools?




They do use tools, since they can wield weapons. I suspect they don't use tools because their culture doesn't include them. An "adventurous Hagertral" could learn the ways of the groundlings.

Give them a LA.


----------



## Shade (Sep 1, 2010)

Updated.

A hagertral is x feet tall, with a wingspan of x feet. An average member of the species weighs x pounds.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> A hagertral is x feet tall, with a wingspan of x feet. An average member of the species weighs x pounds.




No mention of a height, so put it at the middle of Small's 2 to 4 foot range?

The picture shows the wings are pretty big, each looks like it'd be longer than the Hagertral is tall.

About the same weight as a halfling?

A hagertral is 3 feet tall, with a wingspan of 8 feet. An average member of the species weighs 30 to 35 pounds.


----------



## Shade (Sep 1, 2010)

Sounds good!  That makes eating halflings even creepier.  

Updated.  Finished?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> Sounds good!  That makes eating halflings even creepier.
> 
> Updated.  Finished?




Yup!


----------



## Shade (Sep 1, 2010)

*Dragite*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any dragon lair
FREQUENCY: Very Rare
ORGANIZATION: Tribal
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Low to average (5-9)
TREASURE: incidental (see below)
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 40-160
ARMOR CLASS: 8
MOVEMENT: 6 (12)
HIT DICE: 1-2 hp
THAC0: 20
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-2
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: T (1' tall)
MORALE: Unsteady (5-7)
XP VALUE: 5

Dragites are tiny, vaguely mole-like humanoids. Sometimes called "dragon mites," they make their homes in the lairs of any dragons who will tolerate them. A dragite's torso is covered with coarse brown fur. Most dragites, however, dye their fur to match the color of their dragon host. The skin on a dragite's face, hands, and arms is rough, scaly, and light gray. Dragites have large, protruding ears and long snouts, giving them keen senses of hearing and smell. Although must dragites are nearsighted, they can see well in darkness and have infravision to 30 feet.

Most dragites speak only their own language, However, about 10% of them (those with average intelligence) also speak their host dragon's tongue.

Combat: Dragites are shy, peaceful, and usually inoffensive. They bear no malice toward any particular race or species. When possible, they flee from any potentially dangerous encounter, seeking safety in small tunnels (which they dig themselves) or in any other cramped space they can fit into. The only time a dragite will fight willingly is to defend its mate or offspring.

Habitat/Society: Dragites are fair miners, and live in small tunnels they dig in the walls and floor of the dragon lair where they live. They avoid any locale where they cannot make their homes by tunneling through rock.
The entire life of a tribe of dragites revolves around their dragon host-the dragon is both provider and protector. Dragites eat by scavenging the leavings of a dragon's meals (which helps keep the dragon's lair clean). They supplement their diet with whatever food they can gather on their own. The dragites care for the host dragon, keeping it clean and tending its wounds. A dragon who allows dragites into its lair is generally healthier than one that does not. A wounded dragon sleeping in its lair regains six hit points a day if tended by dragites.

Dragites can be hard to locate when they don't want to be seen, as they can hide behind almost any small object. This makes them excellent scouts. They normally range as much as a mile from the lair, willingly bringing back news to their host dragons. They even have been known to wake sleeping dragons when hostile creatures come too close. Some dragons use their dragites as spies, allowing the dragon to survey the countryside without revealing its own presence.

Though dragites have no interest in wealth, they love shiny objects, particularly brightly colored gems and jewelry. They frequently filch these items from the dragon's hoard, along with the occasional gold or platinum coin or small magic item. If this thievery goes unchecked, a tribe of dragites can remove up to 10% of a dragon's hoard and hide it away in their minuscule tunnels, where the dragon cannot reach. For this reason, only about 20% of all dragons will have dragites in their lairs. Very patient and kind dragons can, occasionally, persuade their dragites to return an important item -- particularly if they have access to charm magics. Most dragite tribes have equal numbers of male and female adults, plus young of both sexes equal to 20% of the adult population. Venerable or great wyrm host dragons often have dragite tribes two or three times normal size.

Most tribes also will have a dozen or so leaders of average intelligence, these leaders can speak the host's tongue and are the only dragites that communicate directly with the dragon. Nevertheless, all orders and tasks the dragon assigns are shared, and there is no single, dominant chieftain. The tribe's only lord is the host dragon. Each dragite reveres the dragon and will do almost anything the dragon commands, short of charging directly into combat. However, dragites are aggressive enough to set traps for unwary invaders, steal from them, or harry them.

Ecology: Dragites are timid scavengers that are easy prey for other creatures. Kobolds, goblins, and orcs are fond of killing or enslaving them. Without their dragon protectors, dragites soon would be extinct. Sometimes a host dragon will trade a few of its dragites to another dragon of the same species in exchange for a bit of treasure.

Dragites reproduce the same way humans do, and an adult female can give birth once every three years. Young dragites mature in two years and most live to be about 40. A tribe of dragites leaves a dragon's lair only when driven out.

Originally appeared in Polyhedron #67 (1992).


----------



## Cleon (Sep 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> *Dragite*




Miniature dragon parasite molemen? That's new!

Hmm...

Tiny Fey I suppose, since there's already a Mite Sprite.

I would suggest giving them an immunity to Breath Weapons, otherwise they'll have great difficulty surviving.

Base stats on the SRD's *Grig*?


----------



## Shade (Sep 2, 2010)

That's an interesting take on 'em.  I hadn't considered fey, since nothing was particularly feylike about 'em.  Still, I think it's a good fit.

Rather than flat-out immunity to breath weapons, I'd rather give 'em improved evasion and an excellent Reflex save.  I picture 'em all diving for cover as the dragon inhales...


----------



## Cleon (Sep 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> That's an interesting take on 'em.  I hadn't considered fey, since nothing was particularly feylike about 'em.  Still, I think it's a good fit.
> 
> Rather than flat-out immunity to breath weapons, I'd rather give 'em improved evasion and an excellent Reflex save.  I picture 'em all diving for cover as the dragon inhales...




They've only got half a Hit Dice, they'd need either Epic level Dexterity or a HUGE racial bonus to have a Reflex save high enough to give them much change of saving against a decent sized dragon.

e.g. Adult Copper Dragon has a Breath Weapon DC of 24, the dragite has a base Reflex save of +2, so it would need another +11 for a 50% chance of saving - that'd require Dex 32 or an equivalent racial bonus!

Alternatively, they might have a symbiotic immunity so they aren't affected by the breath of a dragon that lets them tend it.

Speaking of which, I came up with these SQs:

*Care For Dragon (Ex):* A colony of dragites can tend a sickly or injured dragon. While being cared for by dragites, a dragon's natural healing recovers hit points and ability damage at *three?* times the normal rate, and it gains a *+3?* bonus to its saving throws against poison and disease. The increased natural healing does not stack with the long-term care provided by the Heal skill. It takes at least one dragite per racial hit dice of the dragon to provide this care.
*
Dyed Fur (Ex):* Dragites dye their fur to match their dragon's coloration. This helps them hide among discarded scales in the dragon's lair, giving them a *+5?* circumstance bonus to Hide checks.


----------



## Shade (Sep 2, 2010)

Hmm...I'm really not fond of a blanket immunity to breath weapons.  It just feels...wrong.

Since they are "timid scavengers", they really should be out of the breath weapon's area before it is even used.  I picture them "running for cover" as soon as a potential threat is evident.

Plus, it could be tactically interesting for the dragon to decide if it wants to employ its breath weapon and risk injuring its "little buddies".


----------



## Cleon (Sep 3, 2010)

Shade said:


> Hmm...I'm really not fond of a blanket immunity to breath weapons.  It just feels...wrong.




I don't mind dropping the breath weapon immunity if you don't like it. T'was just an idea.



Shade said:


> Plus, it could be tactically interesting for the dragon to decide if it wants to employ its breath weapon and risk injuring its "little buddies".




I suspect they stick to their tiny tunnels when a fight's going down, so the question is academic.

That reminds me. Considering that they're mole-like and live in elaborate tunnel systems, could we give them a 5 ft. Burrow speed?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 3, 2010)

Oh, and what do you think about the Care For Dragon and Dyed Fur SQs I proposed?


----------



## Shade (Sep 3, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Oh, and what do you think about the Care For Dragon and Dyed Fur SQs I proposed?




I like 'em, but I'd roll dyed fur into the standard skills entry.

Burrow speed is a good fit.

Looking at the grig's scores...

Str 5, Dex 18, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 14

I'd suggest we lower Int to 7 (original was 5-9), Wis to 11, and Cha to 10.  They aren't magical, so don't really need decent Cha.  They had only 1-2 hp, so I'd say no Con bonus is needed either.

Thus...

Str 5, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 7, Wis 11, Cha 10

Look OK?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 3, 2010)

Shade said:


> I like 'em, but I'd roll dyed fur into the standard skills entry.




I knew you were going to do that.



Shade said:


> Burrow speed is a good fit.
> 
> Looking at the grig's scores...
> 
> ...




I wondered about lowering the Dex, since they've got AC that's a lot worse than an AD&D Grig - six points less to be exact. Indeed, their armor class is worse than any Sprite in the _Monstrous Manual_.

Dex 14 and no natural armour?

That'd give them AC14 like the SRD Nixie, which has 1 point better AC than a Dragite in AD&D.


----------



## Shade (Sep 3, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.



> Dragites have large, protruding ears and long snouts, giving them keen senses of hearing and smell. Although must dragites are nearsighted, they can see well in darkness and have infravision to 30 feet.




Give them the myopic trait we used recently?  Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, and scent?



> Most dragites speak only their own language, However, about 10% of them (those with average intelligence) also speak their host dragon's tongue.




Sylvan and Draconic?



> Combat: Dragites are shy, peaceful, and usually inoffensive. They bear no malice toward any particular race or species. When possible, they flee from any potentially dangerous encounter, seeking safety in small tunnels (which they dig themselves) or in any other cramped space they can fit into. The only time a dragite will fight willingly is to defend its mate or offspring.




It seems Escape Artist and Hide might be good skill choices.



> Habitat/Society: Dragites are fair miners, and live in small tunnels they dig in the walls and floor of the dragon lair where they live. They avoid any locale where they cannot make their homes by tunneling through rock.




Profession (miner)?   Racial bonus?



> The entire life of a tribe of dragites revolves around their dragon host-the dragon is both provider and protector. Dragites eat by scavenging the leavings of a dragon's meals (which helps keep the dragon's lair clean). They supplement their diet with whatever food they can gather on their own. The dragites care for the host dragon, keeping it clean and tending its wounds.




Heal?  Survival?  Racial bonuses?



> Dragites can be hard to locate when they don't want to be seen, as they can hide behind almost any small object. This makes them excellent scouts.




Racial bonus on Hide?  Ranks in Spot?



> Most tribes also will have a dozen or so leaders of average intelligence, these leaders can speak the host's tongue and are the only dragites that communicate directly with the dragon. Nevertheless, all orders and tasks the dragon assigns are shared, and there is no single, dominant chieftain. The tribe's only lord is the host dragon. Each dragite reveres the dragon and will do almost anything the dragon commands, short of charging directly into combat. However, dragites are aggressive enough to set traps for unwary invaders, steal from them, or harry them.




Craft (trapmaking) ranks?

Perhaps remove Draconic from the standard dragite, and stat out a chieftain with that language?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 3, 2010)

Shade said:


> Give them the myopic trait we used recently?  Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, and scent?
> 
> Sylvan and Draconic?




That all looks good.



Shade said:


> It seems Escape Artist and Hide might be good skill choices.




Agreed, and we should give them a fair to good racial bonus in those skills, plus one in Move Silently.



Shade said:


> Profession (miner)?   Racial bonus?




I'm game for a +2 racial bonus in Profession (miner) and Craft (traps) like the SRD Kobold has.



Shade said:


> Heal?  Survival?  Racial bonuses?




We don't need ranks in Heal, since their Care For Dragon SQ covers their ability to heal dragons. We should mention they clean & scavenge their dragon's lair in the flavour text.



Shade said:


> Racial bonus on Hide?  Ranks in Spot?




I'd prefer the ranks in Listen and Survival, since they're short-sighted.



Shade said:


> Craft (trapmaking) ranks?




So how about a point each in in Trapmaking, Mining, Listen and Survival?



Shade said:


> Perhaps remove Draconic from the standard dragite, and stat out a chieftain with that language?




"All dragites speak Sylvan, and those with a high enough intelligence to gain additional languages always learn Draconic as their first bonus language."


----------



## Shade (Sep 7, 2010)

Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 8, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.




Looks good, except the average hp of half a d6 should be 1, not 3. (1.75 rounded down).

I'm tempted to keep the 3 hp and give them a full d6 Hit Dice.

Same feats as a Grig - Stealthy plus Dodge and Weapon Finesse as bonus feats?

Challenge Rating 1/6? They're somewhere between a Kobold and a Rat as far as being a threat goes.


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## Shade (Sep 8, 2010)

Yeah, let's go with 1 HD.

Updated.

Treasure: Standard coins; standard goods (gems and jewelery only); no items?

Alignment: Usually neutral?

Advancement: By character class?

Level Adjustment: +1?

A typical dragite is 1 foot tall and weighs x pounds. Dragites reproduce once every three years, and have a lifespan of around 40 years.


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## Cleon (Sep 9, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yeah, let's go with 1 HD.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> Treasure: Standard coins; standard goods (gems and jewelery only); no items?




Ahem "They frequently filch these items from the dragon's hoard, along with the occasional gold or platinum coin or *small magic item*."

I'd go for Standard.



Shade said:


> Alignment: Usually neutral?
> 
> Advancement: By character class?
> 
> ...




That all sounds good.

I reckon 2 pounds for the weight - that fits a stocky, dwarf-like build which seems appropriate for a "mole man".


----------



## Shade (Sep 9, 2010)

Updated.  Finished?


----------



## freyar (Sep 10, 2010)

Nice!  Looks pretty good to me!


----------



## Cleon (Sep 10, 2010)

freyar said:


> Nice!  Looks pretty good to me!




They look fine to me too.


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## Shade (Sep 13, 2010)

*Whirling Dervish*
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVE: 18" (9" through sand)
HIT DICE: 5 + 5
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Surprise on 1-5
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Low
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: S (4' tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
LEVEL/XP VALUE: IV/225 + 6/hp

The whirling dervish is a foul creature, which preys on small desert creatures - preferably defenseless ones. It moves through sand with a whirling motion, tunneling through the desert until it detects movement on the surface. Then it whirls out of the ground, causing a whirlwind of sand to spray 30' in all directions, surprising anyone nearby on a 1-5. This blast of sand does no damage, but forces everyone caught in the area of effect to save vs. paralyzation or be incapacitated for one round due to stinging eyes.

Whirling dervishes are 4'-tall bipeds covered with fur. They have long teeth projecting out of their lower jaws, and their large eyes are always wide open above ground, but closed while tunneling through the sand.

Originally appeared in Polyhedron #29 (1986).


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## Shade (Sep 14, 2010)

Monstrous humanoid?

We might borrow this...

Sandswim (Su): Asheratis gain a burrow speed equal to their base land speed while wearing light armor or carrying a light load and traveling through sand, ash, or other loose soil. This speed drops to 5 feet with a heavier load or if an asherati tries to drag a Medium or larger creature along. An asherati can breathe normally while sandswimming.

Str 14, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 6, Wis 13, Cha 8, +1 natural armor?
It looks like they are fairly strong, due to their high damage despite their size.  They seem like they should be fairly agile.  Con is giving them at least 1 bonus hp/HD. I figure a decent Wis for ascertaining prey.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 15, 2010)

That sand-whirlwind attack sounds very familiar. I've seen something like it recently, but can't recall where.

Shade's proposed abilities and Sandswim look good, but I was thinking Magical Beast rather than Monstrous Humanoid.

They'll need tremorsense if they hunt while burrowing.


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2010)

Magical beast works just as well.

Added to Homebrews.

I'm not sure of the "blinding sand" precedent, but I'm sure one exists.

This isn't perfect, but might be adaptable...

Breath Weapon (Su): 10-foot cone of irritating particles, damage 1d4, Reflex DC 12 half. Living creatures that fail their saves are tormented by itching skin and burning eyes. This effect imposes a –4 penalty to AC and a –2 penalty on attack rolls for 3 rounds. The save DC is Constitution-based and includes a +1 racial bonus.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 15, 2010)

Shade said:


> Magical beast works just as well.
> 
> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> ...




Doesn't look very close. I was thinking something like:

Sand Whirlwind (Ex): When a whirling dervish burrows from the ground to the surface it can create a whirlwind of sand as a standard action. All creatures within a 30 ft. spread must succeed at a DC *13?* Reflex save or get sand in their eyes, which blinds them for 1 round and then dazzles them for 1d3 rounds. Whirling dervishes are immune. The save DC is *Constitution-based*.


----------



## Shade (Sep 15, 2010)

Yeah, that's closer in spirit.  Dex-based seems to make sense, since it is creating it with motion (and it helps the save DC).


----------



## Cleon (Sep 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yeah, that's closer in spirit.  Dex-based seems to make sense, since it is creating it with motion (and it helps the save DC).




Yes, we never pick an ability just because it gives the nastier DC, after all. 

Revising...

*Sand Whirlwind (Ex):* When a whirling dervish burrows from the ground to the surface it can create a whirlwind of sand as a standard action. All creatures within a 30 ft. spread must succeed at a DC 15 Reflex save or get sand in their eyes, which blinds them for 1 round and then dazzles them for 1d3 rounds. Whirling dervishes are immune. The save DC is Dexterity-based.


----------



## Shade (Sep 17, 2010)

Updated.

Skills: 8
Move Silently?  Tumble?

Any racial bonuses?  I could see a bonus on the two skills I listed above.

Feats: 3
Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack?


----------



## freyar (Sep 18, 2010)

Hey, it's Taz!  

How about splitting the ranks evenly and going with a +2 racial bonus on Move Silently and +6 or +8 on Tumble?

Those feats sound appropriate.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 18, 2010)

freyar said:


> Hey, it's Taz!




Nah, I've already done the *Southern Devil Whimpus*. 



freyar said:


> How about splitting the ranks evenly and going with a +2 racial bonus on Move Silently and +6 or +8 on Tumble?
> 
> Those feats sound appropriate.




I'd rather put 4 in Listen and 4 in Tumble, with a +6 racial in Tumble.

The feats sound good, but it should have two feats not three, since it's 5 HD. Just give it one of them as a bonus feat.

I'd be sorely tempted to give it Whirlwind Attack as a bonus feat too.

Feats: Dodge  (B), Mobility, Spring Attack, [Whirlwind Attack (B)?]


----------



## Shade (Sep 20, 2010)

I'll give in to your sore temptation, if you'll spot me an extra rank in Tumble to get the synergy bonus with Balance and Jump checks.  

Updated.

Environment: Warm deserts?

Organization: Solitary?

Challenge Rating: 3?

Alignment: Always neutral?

Advancement: x

Whirling dervishes stand 4 feet tall and weigh x pounds. 

Whirling dervishes speak Terran?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 20, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'll give in to your sore temptation, if you'll spot me an extra rank in Tumble to get the synergy bonus with Balance and Jump checks.




That's OK by me.



Shade said:


> Environment: Warm deserts?
> 
> Organization: Solitary?
> 
> ...




The above all sounds good, for Advancement I'd go for 6-7 HD (Small); 8-15 HD (Medium)



Shade said:


> Whirling dervishes stand 4 feet tall and weigh x pounds.
> 
> Whirling dervishes speak Terran?




40 pounds?

I was thinking "cannot speak". There are plenty of Int 6 creatures that aren't capable of language, and these chaps don't really seem to have a strong elemental connection to me to justify Terran.


----------



## freyar (Sep 21, 2010)

I can agree with all that.


----------



## Shade (Sep 21, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I was thinking "cannot speak". There are plenty of Int 6 creatures that aren't capable of language, and these chaps don't really seem to have a strong elemental connection to me to justify Terran.




But Taz sort of speaks!   How about a rudimentary language of their own?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 21, 2010)

Shade said:


> But Taz sort of speaks!   How about a rudimentary language of their own?




Ah, but they can'r be Tazes, since those don't burrow. They're like some weird Taz-Bugs hybrid. Maybe that rabbit's been dating Taz's sister?

Besides, they don't seem social creatures, being solitary and all, so who or what would it use its language to speak to?


----------



## freyar (Sep 22, 2010)

How about this?  "The lucky rare victims of a whirling dervish who've survived report that the creatures make crude guttural vocalizations, but it remains unclear whether they have any concept or understanding of language."


----------



## Shade (Sep 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> How about this?  "The lucky rare victims of a whirling dervish who've survived report that the creatures make crude guttural vocalizations, but it remains unclear whether they have any concept or understanding of language."




That works for me!

Updated.  Finished?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> How about this?  "The lucky rare victims of a  whirling dervish who've survived report that the creatures make crude  guttural vocalizations, but it remains unclear whether they have any  concept or understanding of language."




I like that.



Shade said:


> That works for me!
> 
> Updated.  Finished?




Shouldn't its description have "_oversized jaw_" rather than "_overside jaw_"?


----------



## freyar (Sep 22, 2010)

Looks like it.


----------



## Shade (Sep 22, 2010)

Fixed!

Here's the next one...

*Ghast-lord:* 1; AL CE; IN High; SZ M; MV 12"; AC 2; HD 8; hp 48; THAC0 12; #AT 3 or 1 spell; Dmg 1-6/1-6/1-12 or by spell.
Spells carried: command (die), protection from good, sanctuary, bless, resist cold, hold person, spiritual hammer, silence 15' radius, speak with animals, resist fire.

(From "Ravager, Part 1: The Darkcrypt" by Jeff Grubb; Polyhedron Newszine Issue 30).


Not much to this one, leaving us much room for creative license.  

Powerful unique undead or template?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> Fixed!
> 
> Here's the next one...
> 
> ...




It's not far off a regular ghast which also happens to be a 4th level cleric, except its AC and attacks are higher.

That would seem to be the way to go - take a standard ghast, add 4th level cleric spell casting and rebuke undead (since it's a "lord" it makes sense to give it an ability to push its minions around), increase its NA a bit for the AC 2 better than an AD&D Ghast, and up its attacks a dice.

Probably improve a couple of its ability scores too, like Strength, Wisdom or Charisma, to go with its higher damage, clerical spells and "lordiness".

Note there's no mention of Stench, so I'd cut it out. He ain't no stinkin' lord! I'd keep the standard ghoul & ghast paralysis though.

Could give it Unholy Toughness, since the original has a higher than average hp (48 hp from 8d8 is a third more than the 36 hp average)

How's this for a start:

*Ghast-Lord*
  Medium Undead
  Hit Dice: 8d12+24 (76 hp)
  Initiative: +3
  Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
  Armor Class: 19 (+3 Dex, +6 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 16
  Base Attack/Grapple:+6/+10
  Attack: Bite +10 melee (1d12+4 plus paralysis)
  Full Attack: Bite +10 melee (1d12+4 plus paralysis) and 2 claws +8 melee (1d6+2 plus paralysis)
  Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
  Special Attacks: Ghoul fever, paralyis, rebuke undead, spells
  Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., undead traits, +4 turn resistance
  Saves: Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +9
  Abilities: Str 19, Dex 17, Con –, Int 13, Wis 16, Cha 18
  Skills: Balance +, Climb +, Hide +, Jump +, Move Silently +, Spot + [Add Knowledge (religion)?]
  Feats: Multiattack, plus 2
  Environment: Any
  Organization: Solitary, gang (1 plus 2-4 ghouls or ghasts), or pack (1 plus 2-4 ghasts and 7-12 ghouls) ?
  Challenge Rating: 5?
  Treasure: Standard
  Alignment: Always chaotic evil
  Advancement: 9-X (Medium); X-X (Large)?
  Level Adjustment:—

  Description

  Combat

  Ghoul Fever (Su): Disease—bite, Fortitude DC 15, incubation period 1 day, damage 1d3 Con and 1d3 Dex. The save DC is Charisma-based.

*Paralysis (Ex):* Those hit by a ghast-lord's bite or claw attack must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or be paralyzed for 1d4+1 rounds. Even elves can be affected by this paralysis. The save DC is Charisma-based.

*Spellcasting (Sp):* A ghast-lord casts spells as a 4th level cleric with the X and X domains

Typical Spells Prepared

*Rebuke Undead:* A ghast-lord can rebuke undead as an X-level cleric (equal to its HD or its cleric spellcasting?)

*Unholy Toughness:* A ghast-lord gains bonus hit points equal to its Charisma bonus on each of its hit dice.


----------



## Shade (Sep 23, 2010)

Drop stench?!?!     No way!   Otherwise, we ought simply call him "Ghoul-Lord"!  

You took this in a much different direction than I was expecting.  I was actually thinking "template", like vampire lord and greater mummy, with stronger paralysis and greater stench.  I was also thinking SLAs rather than spellcasting, but can accept that route.

Freyar, what's your take on this?


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## freyar (Sep 23, 2010)

I have this gut feeling that we haven't done a template in a while, and I think it would be fun.  So I'll vote for a template.  But I think I like the cleric casting (perhaps with some SLAs too).


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2010)

Sounds great!

Perhaps it is "gifted" to priests and shamans of cannibalistic and anthropophagus races and tribes by dark deities?

The ghastly creature template adds the following to the base creature:
+2 natural armor
bite and claw attacks
SAs:  create spawn, paralysis, stench
SQs: +2 turn resistance
+2 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, +4 Wisdom, and +6 Charisma

The vampire lord template modifies an existing vampire, and essentially boosts everything the vampire template has, as well as adding a few additional abilities.

The greater mummy template, rather than modifying an existing mummy, is simply a more powerful mummy template to tack on a base creature.

I'd imagine the greater mummy path works better here, since we're presumably adding it to a spellcaster.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 24, 2010)

You two both want to do a template? 

Aiee! You've been replaced by Dopplegangers. 

I don't mind a template that's applicable to evil clerics.

Feel free to throw the stench back in, I only left it out because I was taking a minimalist approach to the conversion.


----------



## Shade (Sep 24, 2010)

Cleon said:


> You two both want to do a template?
> 
> Aiee! You've been replaced by Dopplegangers.




I'm not anti-template, I'm anti-nested-template!  

In fact, I think most undead _should_ be templates.



Cleon said:


> Feel free to throw the stench back in, I only left it out because I was taking a minimalist approach to the conversion.




Minimalist?   Halloween's fast approaching...it's time to GONZO with undead!  

<we really, really need a zombie emoticon>

Added the basic framework to Homebrews.  Currently, it is just the benefits of the ghastly creature template.

Extend the stench radius to 30 feet and increase the duration?

Double the paralysis duration?

Liches have a +8 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks
Vampires have a +8 racial bonus on Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks
Follow that trend and give the ghast lord the same bonuses as the lich?

Ghastly Creature: Str +2, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +4, Cha +6
Vampire: Str +6, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4
Vampire Lord:  As vampire, plus Str +6, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4

So maybe Str +6, Dex +8, Int +2, Wis +6, Cha +6?   I don't really think they should be stronger than a vampire or smarter than a lich.

Add some DR?  Since vamps have /silver, maybe /cold iron?

Boost turn resistance to +4?


----------



## freyar (Sep 25, 2010)

I can agree with all that.  (I also happen to prefer my undead as templates.)  I rather like the idea of the template granting inherent casting, but a template that only applies to creatures with the ability to cast divine spells is ok, too.

BTW, is ghastly creature from Libris Mortis?  We could also get inspiration from the dread ghast template in the Advanced Bestiary (which I will look up when I get home from my business trip today).


----------



## Cleon (Sep 25, 2010)

Shade said:


> Extend the stench radius to 30 feet and increase the duration?
> 
> Double the paralysis duration?




Increasing the radius is OK.

I'd like to make it 2d6+4 minutes for the stench and 2d4 rounds for the paralysis.



Shade said:


> Liches have a +8 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks
> Vampires have a +8 racial bonus on Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks
> Follow that trend and give the ghast lord the same bonuses as the lich?




I don't think they should be much better than a Vampire Spawn (+4 racial bonus on Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot).

How about splitting the difference and giving them a +6 racial bonus, but in the SRD ghast's skills of Balance, Climb, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Spot?



Shade said:


> Ghastly Creature: Str +2, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +4, Cha +6
> Vampire: Str +6, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4
> Vampire Lord:  As vampire, plus Str +6, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4
> 
> So maybe Str +6, Dex +8, Int +2, Wis +6, Cha +6?   I don't really think they should be stronger than a vampire or smarter than a lich.




The SRD Ghast's modifiers are Str +6, Dex +6, Int +2, Wis +4, Cha +6 which is already pretty good. We could just give them that, although I'd be tempted to boost the Strength to +8.



Shade said:


> Add some DR?  Since vamps have /silver, maybe /cold iron?
> 
> Boost turn resistance to +4?




I'd leave them without DR, but increase the turn resistance to +4.


----------



## freyar (Sep 26, 2010)

Well, I think I'd prefer something a bit better than a ghast.  But we're not talking exactly about racial modifiers from average, we're talking about modifiers from NPC.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 26, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, I think I'd prefer something a bit better than a ghast.  But we're not talking exactly about racial modifiers from average, we're talking about modifiers from NPC.




I think a ghast's racial modifiers are plenty good enough, since the Ghast-Lord will presumably have the elite array and probably a few ability points for being high level.


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## freyar (Sep 27, 2010)

Ok, fair enough.  The dread ghast doesn't actually get anything better.  

Do we want to add a command ghasts/ghouls ability or rebuke undead or just assume they'll have cleric levels?


----------



## Shade (Sep 27, 2010)

freyar said:


> BTW, is ghastly creature from Libris Mortis?  We could also get inspiration from the dread ghast template in the Advanced Bestiary (which I will look up when I get home from my business trip today).




It's from Dragon Magazine # 307 and later, Dragon Compendium Volume One.

Libris Mortis has the Gravetouched Ghoul template.



Cleon said:


> Increasing the radius is OK.
> 
> I'd like to make it 2d6+4 minutes for the stench and 2d4 rounds for the paralysis.




That'll work.  It's odd that the ghastly and ghoulish creature tempates boosted the paralysis duration so greatly.



Cleon said:


> How about splitting the difference and giving them a +6 racial bonus, but in the SRD ghast's skills of Balance, Climb, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Spot?




That appeals.



Cleon said:


> The SRD Ghast's modifiers are Str +6, Dex +6, Int +2, Wis +4, Cha +6 which is already pretty good. We could just give them that, although I'd be tempted to boost the Strength to +8.






Cleon said:


> I think a ghast's racial modifiers are plenty good enough, since the Ghast-Lord will presumably have the elite array and probably a few ability points for being high level.




I'd like it to be a bit better.  It's not meant to be a ghast template, but rather a greater version of it.  Like the vampire lord and greater mummy, it should offer better ability score modifiers than the standard versions.   I'd be satisifed with simply boosting the Dex and Wis a bit higher, since Dex is the best ability for ghouls (and tied w/Str for ghasts), and Wis helps the clerical spellcasting.

However, the gravetouched ghoul (which seems a bit more realistic compared to other undead templates), gives 'em Str +2, Dex +4, Wis +4, Cha +2.  Based on that, I'd be content with 

Thus, Str +4, Dex +6, Int +2, Wis +6, Cha +6, which essentially gives it lower Str but higher Wis than the straight ability score extrapolation above.



freyar said:


> Ok, fair enough.  The dread ghast doesn't actually get anything better.
> 
> Do we want to add a command ghasts/ghouls ability or rebuke undead or just assume they'll have cleric levels?




As currently written, we require "diving spellcasting", which means druids and some prestige classes that lack rebuke undead could qualify.  Still, I'd be OK with leaving rebuke undead as baggage from the base creature, but I'm not opposed to granting some bonus (Extra Turning as a bonus feat, etc.).


----------



## freyar (Sep 27, 2010)

Hmm, I even have DCv1. 

I'm ok with all the proposed ability arrays at this point.

I don't know that I want to require rebuke undead, since adepts should certainly qualify.  Maybe we can let them rebuke undead as a cleric of their HD, with uses per day stacking with any from cleric levels?


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## Shade (Sep 28, 2010)

freyar said:


> I don't know that I want to require rebuke undead, since adepts should certainly qualify.  Maybe we can let them rebuke undead as a cleric of their HD, with uses per day stacking with any from cleric levels?




If we'd like them to be able to control other undead, I think this option works best.  If we don't care, we can just leave the prereq as "able to cast xth-level divine spells", which will allow adepts, druids, and the like.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 28, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'd like it to be a bit better.  It's not meant to be a ghast template, but rather a greater version of it.  Like the vampire lord and greater mummy, it should offer better ability score modifiers than the standard versions.   I'd be satisifed with simply boosting the Dex and Wis a bit higher, since Dex is the best ability for ghouls (and tied w/Str for ghasts), and Wis helps the clerical spellcasting.
> 
> However, the gravetouched ghoul (which seems a bit more realistic compared to other undead templates), gives 'em Str +2, Dex +4, Wis +4, Cha +2.  Based on that, I'd be content with
> 
> Thus, Str +4, Dex +6, Int +2, Wis +6, Cha +6, which essentially gives it lower Str but higher Wis than the straight ability score extrapolation above.




I can live with than, and would be willing to increase the Str bonus one step:

Str +6, Dex +6, Int +2, Wis +6, Cha +6



Shade said:


> As currently written, we require "diving spellcasting", which means druids and some prestige classes that lack rebuke undead could qualify.  Still, I'd be OK with leaving rebuke undead as baggage from the base creature, but I'm not opposed to granting some bonus (Extra Turning as a bonus feat, etc.).




Upon reflection, I'm thinking we should consider allowing for other classes too. The sample Ghast-Lord may just happen to be a cleric. Something like any evil character of at least 4th level can become a Ghast-Lord.

Also, the sample Ghast-Lord is an 8HD monster but cast spells as a 4th level cleric (more or less). So I was thinking it could get bonus "undead HD" on top of its class level HD based on its size, with 4 HD for a Medium-sized Ghast-Lord.


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## freyar (Sep 29, 2010)

Interesting point about HD.  Ok, then, here's my proposal:

+4 "racial" undead HD with associated turning as a 4th level cleric (that stacks with any actual cleric levels)

There's precedent for templates adding HD, too; the Beast of Xvim from 3.0 Monsters of Faerun springs to mind.


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## Shade (Sep 29, 2010)

freyar said:


> Interesting point about HD.  Ok, then, here's my proposal:
> 
> +4 "racial" undead HD with associated turning as a 4th level cleric (that stacks with any actual cleric levels)
> 
> There's precedent for templates adding HD, too; the Beast of Xvim from 3.0 Monsters of Faerun springs to mind.




While precedents do exist--_down that road leads ruin_.  Trust me from experience on this one.  

Still, if you guys both badly want to go down that road, I'll fasten my safety belt, close my eyes, and grit my teeth while awaiting our grisly demise.  

EDIT:  That path also doesn't fit in well with the other "undead lord" templates.  Food for thought.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 29, 2010)

Shade said:


> While precedents do exist--_down that road leads ruin_.  Trust me from experience on this one.
> 
> Still, if you guys both badly want to go down that road, I'll fasten my safety belt, close my eyes, and grit my teeth while awaiting our grisly demise.
> 
> EDIT:  That path also doesn't fit in well with the other "undead lord" templates.  Food for thought.




Well do it without extra HD if you like.

I'm probably going to stat it as a straight monster anyway, so it doesn't make much difference to me.


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## Shade (Sep 29, 2010)

Usually the "add extra HD" templates work best for monsters that become "gigantic".



			
				Cleon said:
			
		

> Upon reflection, I'm thinking we should consider allowing for other classes too. The sample Ghast-Lord may just happen to be a cleric. Something like any evil character of at least 4th level can become a Ghast-Lord.




Are we requiring four levels in a character class, or simply 4 HD?


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## Cleon (Sep 29, 2010)

Shade said:


> Usually the "add extra HD" templates work best for monsters that become "gigantic".
> 
> Are we requiring four levels in a character class, or simply 4 HD?




I was thinking four levels in a character class.


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## Shade (Sep 30, 2010)

Cleon said:


> I was thinking four levels in a character class.




Can you find a precedent for using levels in a generic character class as a template prereq?


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## Cleon (Oct 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> Can you find a precedent for using levels in a generic character class as a template prereq?




Can't think of anything official, but that's never stopped me before.

The closest I can think of are the SRD Lich (which has to have CL 11th to make its phylactery).


----------



## Shade (Oct 4, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Can't think of anything official, but that's never stopped me before.
> 
> The closest I can think of are the SRD Lich (which has to have CL 11th to make its phylactery).




Caster level is a perfectly valid prereq...I've never seen anyting require "x levels in a class"...which is actually counterintuitive to the 3e design model.

We can go off BAB, base saves, and so forth to get close to what you're looking for.

I still don't see why it shouldn't be limited to a divine caster. <shrug>


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## freyar (Oct 5, 2010)

I'd make it divine CL 4 or something.


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## Shade (Oct 5, 2010)

freyar said:


> I'd make it divine CL 4 or something.




That appeals to me.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 7, 2010)

I was wondering about +4 Base Will Save and the ability to cast X spells with the Evil descriptor.


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## Shade (Oct 7, 2010)

If we're going to use spellcasting as a prereq, we might as well use the simpler and more common "casts spells of x level" approach.


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## freyar (Oct 7, 2010)

Ability to cast divine spells of 2nd/3rd level (bracketing CL 4 for a cleric) and evil alignment?


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## Shade (Oct 7, 2010)

I'd be happy with that, and think 3rd-level is better.


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## freyar (Oct 9, 2010)

Cleon, do you agree?


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## Cleon (Oct 9, 2010)

freyar said:


> Cleon, do you agree?




Oh I guess so.

I'm not that enthusiastic about 3rd level spells, but if we drop the bonus HD we should give the base creature more levels to compensate, so it's acceptable.


----------



## Shade (Oct 18, 2010)

Updated.

Anything left other than CR and LA?  Should we work on a sample creature first to determine those values?


----------



## Cleon (Oct 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Anything left other than CR and LA?  Should we work on a sample creature first to determine those values?




I'm fine doing a sample creature.

How about a 9th level non-elite bugbear adept, just to be different?

That's the minimum level for an adept with 13-15 Wisdom to qualify for the 3rd level spell prerequisite, although an 8th level adept can do it with 16+ Wisdom.

If you don't like that idea we could do a 5th level NE elite bugbear druid.


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2010)

Make the adept elite, and I'm in.


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## Shade (Oct 20, 2010)

Added sample to Homebrews.

I realized we were missing ghoul fever, so I added it to both the template and the sample.

I added its two ability score boosts (for 4th and 8th level) to Wis and Cha.

For skills...
A bugbear's humanoid levels give it 12 skill points.  Its class skills are Climb, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, and Spot.

The adept levels give it 24 ranks to spend.  Its class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (all skills taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Survival (Wis).


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## Cleon (Oct 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> Make the adept elite, and I'm in.




It's a deal.



Shade said:


> Added sample to Homebrews.
> 
> I realized we were missing ghoul fever, so I added it to both the template and the sample.
> 
> I added its two ability score boosts (for 4th and 8th level) to Wis and Cha.




Shouldn't we say how its elite stat array was assigned? I make it Str 14, Dex 12, Con 8, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 13.



Shade said:


> For skills...
> A bugbear's humanoid levels give it 12 skill points.  Its class skills are Climb, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, and Spot.




4 ranks apiece in Hide, Listen and Spot?

The racial bonus to Move Silently will even out the scores nicely.



Shade said:


> The adept levels give it 24 ranks to spend.  Its class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (all skills taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Survival (Wis).




Shouldn't that be 27 ranks since it's a 9th level Intelligence 12 Adept?

Nine ranks apiece in Concentration, Knowledge (religion) and Spellcraft?


----------



## Shade (Oct 22, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Shouldn't we say how its elite stat array was assigned? I make it Str 14, Dex 12, Con 8, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 13.




Will add.



Cleon said:


> 4 ranks apiece in Hide, Listen and Spot?
> 
> The racial bonus to Move Silently will even out the scores nicely.




Sounds good!



Cleon said:


> Shouldn't that be 27 ranks since it's a 9th level Intelligence 12 Adept?




Nope.  It didn't get the Int boost until acquiring the template, so it gets only 2 skill ranks for each of its 9 levels, plus quadruple skills for first level.



Cleon said:


> Nine ranks apiece in Concentration, Knowledge (religion) and Spellcraft?




Make that 8 ranks apiece (see above).


----------



## freyar (Oct 22, 2010)

Aren't monsters with NPC levels generally supposed to use the nonelite array?  Not a big deal to go non-standard, but just wondering.

I believe a 9th level bugbear adept is CR 8 by the character class rules.  To be continued...


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## Shade (Oct 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> Aren't monsters with NPC levels generally supposed to use the nonelite array?  Not a big deal to go non-standard, but just wondering.




That is correct.  However, with a template, it could go either way.  And since this is a "lord" among ghasts, I figured it outta be elite.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 23, 2010)

freyar said:


> Aren't monsters with NPC levels generally supposed to use the nonelite array?  Not a big deal to go non-standard, but just wondering.
> 
> I believe a 9th level bugbear adept is CR 8 by the character class rules.  To be continued...




Adept levels are Non-Associated, so they add half a CR each until they match the bugbear's base HD.

So, 2 CR for Bugbear, +1.5 for first three levels, +6 for final six levels, for a Challenge Rating of 9.5; you round down I believe, giving CR 9 for a Bugbear 9th level adept.

Then you add the template modifier on top of that.


----------



## Shade (Oct 25, 2010)

Updated.

Feats:  Multiattack (B), Toughness (B), 5 more

Challenge Rating: 9 (+2 for template?)

Level Adjustment: +1 (+2 for template?)


----------



## Cleon (Oct 26, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Feats:  Multiattack (B), Toughness (B), 5 more




How about Alertness, Combat Casting, Greater Spell Focus (necromancy), Spell Focus (necromancy),  Stealthy.



Shade said:


> Challenge Rating: 9 (+2 for template?)
> 
> Level Adjustment: +1 (+2 for template?)




CR11 seems awfully high. If it were a straight monster I wouldn't rate it higher than CR 8 or 9.

What's the CR and LA for the Ghoulish Creature template again? That would give us a ballpark figure.


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## Shade (Oct 26, 2010)

The suggested feats appeal.   Do we want to bother with a familiar?

Ghoulish Creature:  CR +1, no LA given
Ghastly Creature: CR +2, no LA given
Gravetouched Ghoul:  CR +1, LA +2

This is better than all three of those.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 27, 2010)

Shade said:


> The suggested feats appeal.   Do we want to bother with a familiar?




Might as well. Maybe a Raven?



Shade said:


> Ghoulish Creature:  CR +1, no LA given
> Ghastly Creature: CR +2, no LA given
> Gravetouched Ghoul:  CR +1, LA +2
> 
> This is better than all three of those.




How about CR +2, LA +2?


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2010)

All appeals.  Updated.

What's left?


----------



## Cleon (Oct 28, 2010)

Shade said:


> All appeals.  Updated.
> 
> What's left?




The celebratory victory dance?

Apart from a "stastics" typo in *Creating a Ghast-Lord* it looks good.

I'm still tempted to do a plain monster version of it though.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 28, 2010)

Hold on, it's a ghast-lord, not a ghoul-lord. Its paralysis should include the SRD ghast's "even elves are affected by this paralysis."

EDIT: Oh, and why does the sample bugbear ghast-lord have "Solitary" as an organization?


----------



## Shade (Oct 28, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Hold on, it's a ghast-lord, not a ghoul-lord. Its paralysis should include the SRD ghast's "even elves are affected by this paralysis."




Good catch!  I'll fix it.



Cleon said:


> EDIT: Oh, and why does the sample bugbear ghast-lord have "Solitary" as an organization?




Uhm...uh...I got nothing.  

Shall we give it a nice mix of bugbears and ghouls (and maybe ghasts)?


----------



## Cleon (Oct 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> Shall we give it a nice mix of bugbears and ghouls (and maybe ghasts)?




Since Ghast-Lords can create ghastly creatures with Create Spawn I would change the organization of both the template and its sample creature to:

*Organization:* Solitary; gang (1 plus 2-4 ghasts); pack (1 plus 2-4 ghastly creatures plus 7-12 ghasts) or court (2-4 plus 7-12 ghastly creatures plus 20-50 ghasts)


----------



## Shade (Nov 1, 2010)

The only issue is that ghastly creatures are not an OGL template.  So we should at least offer alternatives using standard ghasts (even advanced ones, if necessary).


----------



## Cleon (Nov 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> The only issue is that ghastly creatures are not an OGL template.  So we should at least offer alternatives using standard ghasts (even advanced ones, if necessary).




I don't mind cutting them out and just having ghouls and ghasts, e.g.:

*Organization:* Solitary; pack (1 plus 2-12 ghouls and/or ghasts) or court (2-4 plus 6-36 ghouls and/or ghasts)


----------



## Shade (Nov 3, 2010)

Updated.   Finished?


----------



## Cleon (Nov 3, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.   Finished?




Yup!


----------



## freyar (Nov 5, 2010)

I keep meaning to dig up some wraith templates for the ghost mounts (but have been totally swamped!), so I'll find alternatives for ghastly creatures while I'm at it...


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## freyar (Nov 7, 2010)

Well, the best easy thing I can find is the suggestion on making regular ghasts from the dread ghast template in the Advanced Bestiary.  We can throw that in if we like.


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## Shade (Nov 8, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, the best easy thing I can find is the suggestion on making regular ghasts from the dread ghast template in the Advanced Bestiary.  We can throw that in if we like.




We can probably leave that off, since I believe that book is now hard-to-find.


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## Shade (Nov 8, 2010)

This next bunch might spawn several creatures, and all will need to be renamed to avoid confusion with the rusalka in _Frostburn_.

_________________________________________________________

The 1999 Club Decathlon, one of the RPGA's programs to get clubs more involved in roleplaying, produced some fine entries in the various game writing categories. In the Best AD&D Monster category, these two versions of the rusalka tied for first place. Use either, or both, in your home campaigns. The rusalka is a creature out of Russian folk lore, and we encourage you to find out more about it at your library or on the web.

*Rusalka*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: River banks/Shorelines
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any (Usually at dawn or dusk, or in foggy or cloudy conditions)
DIET: None
INTELLIGENCE: High (13-14)
TREASURE: W (x rusalka's age in years)
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic Neutral - Chaotic Evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 0 (8)
MOVEMENNT: 9
HIT DICE: 7
THACO: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 0
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 0
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Embrace, control water
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 50%
SIZE: M
MORALE: Champion (15-16)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 1,000

The rusalka (plural rusalki) is the spirit of a drowning victim, usually a woman, who was murdered. Most rusalki desire revenge on their murderer, and will do all in their power to gain this revenge. This is not always easy since the spirit of the rusalka is tied to the body of water in which it was drowned. If the rusalka is successful in its quest for revenge, it will cease to be bound to the Prime Material plane and will be released to rest in peace. As time passes the rusalka's alignment shifts further and further toward Chaotic Evil. Thus, a recently manifested rusalka will retain some of the memories of its former self, but a rusalka of long standing is a being of almost purely Chaotic Evil whose only thoughts are revenge on the one who put her here. Male rusalki are sometimes called Vodyanik.

Rusalki retain the general appearance they had in life, and anyone who knew them in life should be able to recognize them. They usually appear to be dressed in the clothing they were wearing when drowned, although the colors are washed out to a faded, watery green. They have pale complexions with a greenish tint and long greenishblond to green hair, which may appear to have water plants woven into it.

Combat: All rusalki will attempt to lure their victims to their deaths with siren songs, or tangle the nets of fishermen and overturn their boats, drowning them in a watery embrace. The song ofthe rusalka is enticing, and their forms are beautiful and welcoming, but neither their song nor their appearance have any magical allure. All those seeing a rusalka, except for the murderer, may choose to approach or to avoid them of their own free will. If the murderer of the mortal who has became a rusalka sees the rusalka, he must save vs. spell or be drawn into the rusalka's embrace.

Rusalki become semi-material upon contact with air, assuming human form. They must be in this form to embrace their victims. Rusalki are AC 0 while semi-material. and can only be struck by magical weapons (full damage), or by normal or magical fire (half damage). Rusalki can also be attacked on the Ethereal plane, where they are AC 8. Rusalki can be turned like regular ghosts, but holy water has no effect on them.

Anyone who touches or is touched by the rusalka is subject to its embrace. The rusalka's embrace pulls its victim beneath the water, causing a victim to drown unless a successful saving throw vs. breath weapon is made. The murderer must make this save with a -3 penalty. The victim may be revived if removed from the rusalka's embrace (and from the water) and some means of resuscitation is applied within five rounds of being drowned. Those who successfully avoid the embrace must also make a swimming proficiency check or a strength check to break free. The saving throw vs. breath weapon must be repeated each round until the victim either breaks free, is pulled under, or is released by the rusalka. Rusalki can control water within 10 feet; they can use waves to slow movement to 1/4 normal and increase chances of drowning by 10%.

As soon as the rusalka takes any damage, it will release any embraced victims, disappear back into the water, and reappear again 15 feet further out into the lake. Any who follow will be subject to the control water attack. Those who follow are slowed to 1/4 normal movement. They must also make a swimming proficiency check at -2 each round or be pulled under the water.

When a rusalka's hit points drop to 5% of its total, the rusalka will withdraw to the Ethereal Plane, where it will remain for 1 year gathering enough energy to re-manifest in the Prime Material Plane. If the rusalka is pursued into the Ethereal Plane it can be "killed" there, but the spirit thus released becomes a true, free-ranging ghost, and as such, it will do all in its power to seek out and destroy its original murderer.

Habitat /Society: Rusalki are found in any climate or region capable of sustaining open bodies of water, but seem to be more common in ponds, streams and small lakes of the more temperate climates. Rusalki usually appear within 5 feet of the shoreline, near the spot where they were murdered, but may appear anywhere in "their" body of water. They cannot come onto dry land, but can manifest in water as shallow as 1 inch deep, thus the occasional reports of rusalki who "walk" the shoreline or who sit by the edge of the water.

Ecology: Rusalki do not contribute to the environment in any way. Various coins and items of jewelry can often be found submerged in the shallows or covered with a layer of sediment near places where rusalki are known to appear. These items are all that is left of the rusalka's victims, and as such, increase with the passing of the years. 

*Lesser Rusalka*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate shores
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Pack
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Constant
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE: 0
ALIGNMENT: Neutral Evil
NO. APPEARING: 1-8
ARMOUR CLASS: 8
MOVEMENT: 9, Sw 12
HIT DICE: 3
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3 (claw/claw/bite)
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d3/1d3/1d4+1
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +2 save vs fire
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M
MORALE: Fanatic (17-18)
XP VALUE: 250

*Greater Rusalka*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate shores
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Pack
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Constant
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10)
TREASURE: Mx2, X
ALIGNMENT: Neutral Evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOUR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: 9, Sw 12
HIT DICE: 5
THAC0: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3 (claw/claw/bite)
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d4/1d4/1d6+1
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +2 save vs fire
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M
MORALE: Fanatic (17-18)
XP VALUE: 500

Rusalki are female undead who haunt bodies of water in temperate regions. A lesser rusalka is created when a female human or demi-human is drowned by either variety of rusalka. This new rusalka is then under the control of the pack leader (a greater rusalka, or the lesser rusalka with the most hit points). A new rusalka retains the physical characteristics she had in life. For example, an elf would be have a light build and pointed ears, a dwarf would be stout and have a beard. In undeath, the rusalka's skin becomes pale, bloated and slightly scaled. Her most noticeable feature is her eyes, which burn with green fire.

For every pack there is an 80% chance that one of the rusalka will be the greater variety. If a greater rusalka is present, she will always be pack leader. In her true form, a greater rusalka appears much like her lesser companions, but with tougher skin and a more intense fire in her eyes. The true form of a greater rusalka is rarely seen due to a permanent illusion surrounding her. This illusion causes the viewer to see an image of the fairest possible female that his or her mind can concoct, clad in only a robe of mist. True seeing, a gem of seeing, or a robe of eyes will allow the viewer to see the greater rusalka's true form.

Combat: The tactics of the rusalki vary depending on whether or not there is a greater rusalka in the pack. If the pack consists entirely of lesser rusalki, they will hide on land close to the water. There they will wait until someone passes nearby, at which time they will attack. Their first action will be to use their gaze attack on one creature with which they are engaged in melee. They can use their gaze attack once per day, with the effect of ray of enfeeblement as cast by a 3rd level mage. They will then proceed to attack with their sharp nails and teeth.

If a greater rusalka is in the pack, she will lure victims into the water where the others hide in waiting. She does this through the use of an audio illusion, a singing voice so sweet it would put an elven minstrel to shame. This song charms (save vs spell to negate) humanoids into approaching its source from up to 30' away. When they come into view of the greater rusalka, they see her (or rather the illusion) standing at the edge of the water. Those males not already charmed must make another save vs spell, with a -2 penalty, or be charmed as well. If unaffected by the charms, the viewer sees past the illusion and retains free will. Those charmed must follow the greater rusalka into the water. When the victim is waist-deep, the lesser rusalki surface behind the victim and attack. As their first attack, both variety of rusalki will attempt to overbear the closest victims and hold them underwater until they drown. If this fails, they will use their gaze attacks and engage in regular melee. The gaze attack ofthe greater rusalki has the effect of the spell eyebite cast by a 5th level mage using the sicken option. The greater rusalki can use their gaze attack 3 times per day, though multiple uses on the same target have no effect.

If a female human or demihuman drowns in the hands of a rusalka, she will rise as a lesser rusalka in six turns unless a remove curse is cast on the body. If a female dies by means other than drowning, she escapes the horrible fate. The pack leader eats all those who die and do not rise as lesser rusalki, including all males. lesser rusalki can be turned as 5 HD undead. Greater rusalki can be turned as 9 HD undead.

Habitat/Society: Rusalki are organized into packs of lesser rusalki led by a greater rusalka. Should the greater rusalka die, the lesser rusalka with the most hit points takes the role as leader. They all walk onto dry land and await a victim. The first humanoid to have the misfortune of coming across them is attacked. The carcass is then fed to the pack leader. After finishing her meal, the pack leader will begin transforming into a greater rusalka. None but the pack leader is allowed to eat at this strange ritual.

Ecology: No one knows where the rusalki menace came from. The most popular theory is that some girl long ago insulted a god. This god caused the girl to fall into a river and drown. She was then cursed to return as an undead. The girl was horror-stricken and she applied the same punishment to anyone who saw her, thus passing the curse along. Whatever their origins, rusalki are unnatural and are not a part of the natural ecology.

Originally appeared in Polyhedron Gencon Special Edition (1999).


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## freyar (Nov 9, 2010)

Shade said:


> We can probably leave that off, since I believe that book is now hard-to-find.



It's too bad, too, since it's a great book.  (Still, a lot of people might have it.)  I got lucky to get it through GRR's $5 sale at the Paizo store a few years back.  Similar story with the Book of Fiends: my FLGS was hiding a copy in the back and was so happy to sell it in the waning days of the d20 license that they gave me a discount!  Little did they know!


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## freyar (Nov 9, 2010)

Shade said:


> This next bunch might spawn several creatures, and all will need to be renamed to avoid confusion with the rusalka in _Frostburn_.
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> 
> ...



Definitely different monsters for the two different types of rusalka (though the "greater" rusalka in the second batch might just be an underbar for the advancement of the "lesser" rusalka).

The first type suggests another name, "vodyanik," based on the male form.  I'd suggest going with that and removing the flavor that most are female.  No good idea for the other ones, though.

Should we just start with the first, incorporeal one?


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2010)

As an aside, the Vodyanoi also appears in Frostburn as a fey.  As you might remember, the name was used in previous editions for underwater umber hulks.

Ahh, the tangled web D&D has weaved with the names of monsters from folklore and mythology!

That said, "vodyanik" might be different enough to use it for our conversion.


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## Cleon (Nov 10, 2010)

Shade said:


> As an aside, the Vodyanoi also appears in Frostburn as a fey.  As you might remember, the name was used in previous editions for underwater umber hulks.
> 
> Ahh, the tangled web D&D has weaved with the names of monsters from folklore and mythology!
> 
> That said, "vodyanik" might be different enough to use it for our conversion.




I'd prefer to keep them all female, since that's in keeping with the original folklore.

From what I remember of Slav folklore, Vodyanik, Vodyanoy and Vodyanoi (all synonyms of the same creature) are *not* "male rusalka".

Vodyanoy are not ghosts, but (always male) water spirits with green skin and webbed hands. Some versions describe them as being rather froggy looking, others as old men (often with soggy beards).

Malign vodyanoy may drag people underwater and force them to be their slaves, some drown women and turn them into rusalka servants. There's also folklore about them capturing the souls of drowned folk.

Anyhow, as for the Rusalka the first "Ghost" version is clearly based on their mythology. The second "pack" Rusalka seems more like an aquatic vampire than a drowning ghost.

I'm fine with doing the ghostly version first.


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## Shade (Nov 11, 2010)

The Frostburn versions appear to lean rather close toward mythology.

So, what names shall we use for these conversions?  We can't use "Drowned", since that is an undead in MMIII.   "Sea Zombie" also already exists.

"River Ghost"
"Drowning Spirit"
"Vengeful Drowned"
"Wetwight"
"The Swimming Dead"


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## Cleon (Nov 12, 2010)

Shade said:


> The Frostburn versions appear to lean rather close toward mythology.
> 
> So, what names shall we use for these conversions?  We can't use "Drowned", since that is an undead in MMIII.   "Sea Zombie" also already exists.
> 
> ...




If Rusalka is already taken, there are probably other names for them ...

A quite internet search indicates they're also called *Potoplenytsia *("drowned maiden") and are sometimes known as *Korowody *in Poland (Although Rusalka also seems popular in Polish).

I'm uncertain of the latter name, since it may be a kind of circle dance ("Korowod") than Rusalka are said to be fond of. I checked a Polish-English dictionary and it says Korowody means "pains, ado" or "formalities, ceremony".

There's also an obscure Slav faerie called a Bereginya or Berehinya that's mentioned in a 15th century manuscript. There's a scholar, one Boris Rybakov, who argues it's an earlier name for a Rusalka. The manuscript mentions "vampires and bereginyas" as creatures worshipped by the pre-Christian Slavs.

Oh, and there are similar creatures called Vile (singular Vila), which is a very common name for an enchanting female faerie.

So, how about Potoplenytsia  for the ghostly one and Bereginya for the ghoulish ones?


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## freyar (Nov 14, 2010)

Those names are a real mouthful, but I guess I'll go with that!


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## Cleon (Nov 14, 2010)

freyar said:


> Those names are a real mouthful, but I guess I'll go with that!




Maybe that helps them drown their victims?

Help! I'm being dragged under by a plotoplu... plotypu.. ploshis... glug...glug...glug...


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## Shade (Nov 15, 2010)

Potoplenytsia and Bereginya seem best, as Vila is already used in Dragon Magazine #290.


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## Shade (Nov 16, 2010)

Let's start on the Potoplenytsia...



> INTELLIGENCE: High (13-14)




We've got our mental score baseline.  



> The rusalka (plural rusalki) is the spirit of a drowning victim, usually a woman, who was murdered. Most rusalki desire revenge on their murderer, and will do all in their power to gain this revenge. This is not always easy since the spirit of the rusalka is tied to the body of water in which it was drowned.




A variation on the dryad's tree dependence?

_Frostburn's _rusalka has this:

Water Symbiosis (Su): Each rusalka is mystically bound to a body of water or a waterway as small as a pond or as large as a lake or river. Although aquatic, a rusalka can move as far as 300 yards from the body of water to which it is bound and breathe normally. If the rusalka strays farther than that, she must hold her breath or immediately start to drown. Once a rusalka has moved beyond the boundary of her connection, she cannot breathe normally until she has immersed herself in her body of water.



> If the rusalka is successful in its quest for revenge, it will cease to be bound to the Prime Material plane and will be released to rest in peace.




Rejuvenation like a ghost?



> As time passes the rusalka's alignment shifts further and further toward Chaotic Evil. Thus, a recently manifested rusalka will retain some of the memories of its former self, but a rusalka of long standing is a being of almost purely Chaotic Evil whose only thoughts are revenge on the one who put her here.




Alignment:  Always chaotic, never good?



> Male rusalki are sometimes called Vodyanik.




Let's skip this to avoid confusion.



> those seeing a rusalka, except for the murderer, may choose to approach or to avoid them of their own free will. If the murderer of the mortal who has became a rusalka sees the rusalka, he must save vs. spell or be drawn into the rusalka's embrace.




A gaze attack vs. its killer only?



> Rusalki become semi-material upon contact with air, assuming human form. They must be in this form to embrace their victims. Rusalki are AC 0 while semi-material. and can only be struck by magical weapons (full damage), or by normal or magical fire (half damage). Rusalki can also be attacked on the Ethereal plane, where they are AC 8. Rusalki can be turned like regular ghosts, but holy water has no effect on them.




Make 'em variant ghosts, rather than incorporeal creatures?



> Anyone who touches or is touched by the rusalka is subject to its embrace. The rusalka's embrace pulls its victim beneath the water, causing a victim to drown unless a successful saving throw vs. breath weapon is made. The murderer must make this save with a -3 penalty. The victim may be revived if removed from the rusalka's embrace (and from the water) and some means of resuscitation is applied within five rounds of being drowned. Those who successfully avoid the embrace must also make a swimming proficiency check or a strength check to break free. The saving throw vs. breath weapon must be repeated each round until the victim either breaks free, is pulled under, or is released by the rusalka.




It looks like a unique SA.



> Rusalki can control water within 10 feet; they can use waves to slow movement to 1/4 normal and increase chances of drowning by 10%.




Control water SLA?



> As soon as the rusalka takes any damage, it will release any embraced victims, disappear back into the water, and reappear again 15 feet further out into the lake. Any who follow will be subject to the control water attack. Those who follow are slowed to 1/4 normal movement. They must also make a swimming proficiency check at -2 each round or be pulled under the water.




...or maybe it needs to be Su?



> When a rusalka's hit points drop to 5% of its total, the rusalka will withdraw to the Ethereal Plane, where it will remain for 1 year gathering enough energy to re-manifest in the Prime Material Plane. If the rusalka is pursued into the Ethereal Plane it can be "killed" there, but the spirit thus released becomes a true, free-ranging ghost, and as such, it will do all in its power to seek out and destroy its original murderer.




Terms for rejuvenation?



> They cannot come onto dry land, but can manifest in water as shallow as 1 inch deep, thus the occasional reports of rusalki who "walk" the shoreline or who sit by the edge of the water.




Roll that into the "specific body of water dependent" ability?


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## freyar (Nov 18, 2010)

I'd say make them variant ghosts except for that "turns into a true ghost" bit if killed on ethereal.  Either drop that bit or make them separate monsters, I guess.

I agree with the water symbiosis bit but need to think over the rest a little.


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## Shade (Nov 18, 2010)

Added some basics to Homebrews.

The AC 8 on the Ethereal Plane suggests a Dex bonus of +2.  AC 20 seems too high for its HD, so I set Cha to deliver a +4 bonus instead of +8.

I'm wondering if we shouldn't just call these "Drowned Maidens" and note "Potoplenytsia" as the alternate name...


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## Cleon (Nov 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> A variation on the dryad's tree dependence?
> 
> _Frostburn's _rusalka has this:
> 
> Water Symbiosis (Su): Each rusalka is mystically bound to a body of water or a waterway as small as a pond or as large as a lake or river. Although aquatic, a rusalka can move as far as 300 yards from the body of water to which it is bound and breathe normally. If the rusalka strays farther than that, she must hold her breath or immediately start to drown. Once a rusalka has moved beyond the boundary of her connection, she cannot breathe normally until she has immersed herself in her body of water.




A drowning approach would prove problematic, since undead don't breathe.

It would be easier to say they simply "melt into water" if they lose contact with their body of water and reform back in the water X rounds later.



Shade said:


> Rejuvenation like a ghost?
> 
> Alignment:  Always chaotic, never good?




That seems OK



Shade said:


> Let's skip this to avoid confusion.




I'd rather mention it in the flavour text.

"Rusalka gradually lose their mortal memories as they age, a rusalka of long standing is usually a merciless creature who only thinks of vengeance upon the living."



Shade said:


> A gaze attack vs. its killer only?




Well according to folklore rusalka are bewitching creatures, so I'd rather expand that to a general-purpose single-target gaze attack.



Shade said:


> Make 'em variant ghosts, rather than incorporeal creatures?




Ethereal instead of incorporeal? I don't mind either way.



Shade said:


> It looks like a unique SA.




There are quite a few monsters with drowning/suffocating attacks, it'd be easy enough to find one and tweak its mechanics.



Shade said:


> Control water SLA?
> 
> ...or maybe it needs to be Su?




I prefer Su. The description suggests it can create a 10- or 15-foot radius "wash away" effect.



Shade said:


> Terms for rejuvenation?




Yes. I agree with Freyar about dropping the "free-ranging ghost" bit.


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## freyar (Nov 19, 2010)

I could go with "drowned maidens' too.  Sounds like a rock band. 

Ability scores seem fine.  What did you want to do about the rejuvenation/turning into a ghost thing?

EDIT: to respond to Cleon a little.  Are we now going to make these new monsters with no ties to ghosts or make them variant ghosts?  I kind of like the variant ghost idea, but a separate monster works too.


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## Shade (Nov 19, 2010)

freyar said:


> I could go with "drowned maidens' too.  Sounds like a rock band.




Didn't they open for the Guillotine Girls?  



freyar said:


> DIT: to respond to Cleon a little.  Are we now going to make these new monsters with no ties to ghosts or make them variant ghosts?  I kind of like the variant ghost idea, but a separate monster works too.




I'd make 'em ghostlike (ethereal rather than incorporeal all the time), but not a template.


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## freyar (Nov 22, 2010)

Sounds fine to me.  

As for the gaze attack, I'd like it to be something extra special vs the murderer, at the very least a +2 or +4 DC.  Maybe we can look to some of the many revenant variants for inspiration?


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## Cleon (Nov 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'd make 'em ghostlike (ethereal rather than incorporeal all the time), but not a template.




That's my preference too, standard monster (albeit ghostly), not a template.


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## Shade (Nov 22, 2010)

Cleon said:


> That's my preference too, standard monster (albeit ghostly), not a template.




In that case, how's the Homebrews entry looking?


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## freyar (Nov 23, 2010)

It's a good start. Where are we on the "water bound" business?


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## Cleon (Nov 24, 2010)

Shade said:


> In that case, how's the Homebrews entry looking?




I'd cut the fly speed for a start. If they're bound to water, shouldn't they have Swim?

Also, didn't they have some kind of "Make Waves" ability?


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## freyar (Nov 25, 2010)

Agreed on Make Waves or whatever we'll call it.

Flight should be restricted to just above the water, but it would seem for an incorporeal critter to have a swim speed.  Need to think about this.


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## Cleon (Nov 25, 2010)

freyar said:


> Agreed on Make Waves or whatever we'll call it.




Okay, so how shall we handle it. Some kind of Bull Rush style mechanic?



freyar said:


> Flight should be restricted to just above the water, but it would seem for an incorporeal critter to have a swim speed.




I'm guessing there's an "odd", "weird" or "a brilliant idea" missing from after the "seem" in that sentence.


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## freyar (Nov 25, 2010)

Hmm, I did leave out a word.  "Odd" or "weird" would be appropriate choices.

Bull Rush might work.  Overrun also kind of appeals.  Let me think about it.


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## Cleon (Nov 26, 2010)

freyar said:


> Hmm, I did leave out a word.  "Odd" or "weird" would be appropriate choices.
> 
> Bull Rush might work.  Overrun also kind of appeals.  Let me think about it.




I'd go for Bull Rush or Overrun, depending on whether the Rusalka want to wash her foes away or wash them over.


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## Shade (Nov 29, 2010)

I favor bull rush.

A swim speed for an incorporeal seems..._wrong_.   Can anyone find a precedent that might make if seem slightly reasonable?


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## freyar (Nov 29, 2010)

I think I prefer Overrun, actually, since knocking them over would let the drowned spirit "grab on" and start drowning.

Definitely agreed on the swim speed seeming wrong.


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## Cleon (Nov 30, 2010)

freyar said:


> I think I prefer Overrun, actually, since knocking them over would let the drowned spirit "grab on" and start drowning.




Why not give them both, if only for the sake of versatility?



freyar said:


> Definitely agreed on the swim speed seeming wrong.




Ah, but they're unnatural creatures so their movement modes shouldn't feel _right_.


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Why not give them both, if only for the sake of versatility?




Yeah, why not?   Go ahead and write it up.  



Cleon said:


> Ah, but they're unnatural creatures so their movement modes shouldn't feel _right_.




Enough talk of _feelings_...this isn't Mamby-Pamby Land.


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## Cleon (Dec 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yeah, why not?   Go ahead and write it up.




How's this:

*Make Waves (Ex):* As a [free] action, a drowned maiden can create powerful waves or currents in a body of water she is in contact with. These waves can be formed over any area within a 10 ft. radius of the drowned maiden, turning the area into difficult terrain.

As a [standard action], a drowned maiden can use her waves to try to push back or knock over opponents. Resolve this as a Bull Rush or Overrun attack that does not provoke an attack of opportunity, except the drowned maiden uses her Charisma modifier on this check instead of her Strength modifier.

Not sure about the name. What do you think of _*evil currents*_? 



Shade said:


> Enough talk of _feelings_...this isn't Mamby-Pamby Land.




Just 'cause she's incorporeal doesn't mean potoplenytsia doesn't have feelings.


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Not sure about the name. What do you think of _*evil currents*_?




I think it ranks right up there with _*malevolent ripples*_ and _*vile wake*_.


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## freyar (Dec 2, 2010)

Malevolent is great, but ripples drags that down. Go with vile wake, methinks.   The ability itself looks really good.

Work on the drowning aspect?  Or the alluring business?


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## Cleon (Dec 4, 2010)

freyar said:


> Malevolent is great, but ripples drags that down. Go with vile wake, methinks.   The ability itself looks really good.




Or we could continue an _*evil stream*_ of suggestions until the _*wicked undertow*_ drags us under. 



freyar said:


> Work on the drowning aspect?  Or the alluring business?




Well they've got to tempt their victims close before they can get them, so let's aim for alluring...


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## freyar (Dec 6, 2010)

Wicked undertow would be nice if it were only an Overrun option. 

Did we settle on a gaze affecting any single target with a racial bonus to DC vs the killer?


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## Shade (Dec 7, 2010)

*Vile Streams of Malevolent Wake.* 

Affirmative on single-target gaze attack.


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## freyar (Dec 7, 2010)

Seems like a good candidate to merge a vampire and a harpy:

Captivating Gaze (Su): A drowned maiden can attract any characterl just by looking onto his or her eyes. This is similar to a gaze attack, except that the maiden must use a standard action, and those merely looking at her are not affected. Anyone the potoplenytsia targets must succeed on a DC X Will save or become captivated. This is a mind-affecting charm effect. A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same drowned maiden's gaze for 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma-based, and gains a +4 racial bonus against the drowned maiden's killer. The ability has a range of 30 feet.

A captivated victim walks toward the drowned maiden, taking the most direct route available. If the path leads into a dangerous area (through flame, off a cliff, or the like), that creature gets a second saving throw. Captivated creatures can take no actions other than to defend themselves. (Thus, a fighter cannot run away or attack but takes no defensive penalties.) A victim within 5 feet of the drowned maiden stands there and offers no resistance to the monster’s attacks.



Going back to the original text suggests an alluring song, too, so we could do a more direct rip-off of the harpy if you prefer.


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## Cleon (Dec 7, 2010)

freyar said:


> Seems like a good candidate to merge a vampire and a harpy:
> 
> Captivating Gaze (Su): A drowned maiden can attract any characterl just by looking onto his or her eyes. This is similar to a gaze attack, except that the maiden must use a standard action, and those merely looking at her are not affected. Anyone the potoplenytsia targets must succeed on a DC X Will save or become captivated. This is a mind-affecting charm effect. A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same drowned maiden's gaze for 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma-based, and gains a +4 racial bonus against the drowned maiden's killer. The ability has a range of 30 feet.
> 
> ...




Hmm, the original text says they "attempt to lure their victims to their deaths with siren songs" but "neither their song nor their appearance have any magical allure".

That suggests their song is (Ex) rather than (Su), maybe it's some kind of "Super Diplomacy" that affects PCs?

Alternatively, we could just give it the bardic music fascinate/suggestion powers?


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2010)

We agreed upthread that it would be a gaze attack, though maybe it should be more standard than the vampire one.  But I think we'd forgotten about the music.  

Here's my suggested compromise.  Give them a big racial bonus on Diplomacy but retain the gaze attack that works only against their killer, or maybe once a day or something.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2010)

freyar said:


> Here's my suggested compromise.  Give them a big racial bonus on Diplomacy but retain the gaze attack that works only against their killer, or maybe once a day or something.




I'd definitely like to retain the gaze attack against the killer, and would be fine with expanding it to 1/day (or more) against others.  These things need a "hook".


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2010)

Ok, I say keep the gaze mostly as written but with some use restrictions.  I'll agree to against the killer plus either 1/day or 3/day against all others.  And a high Diplomacy bonus when singing?  Oooh, maybe they can use a Perform check instead of Diplomacy?  Nah, can't see giving them that much Perform.

Cleon, can you agree?


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## Cleon (Dec 11, 2010)

freyar said:


> Ok, I say keep the gaze mostly as written but with some use restrictions.  I'll agree to against the killer plus either 1/day or 3/day against all others.  And a high Diplomacy bonus when singing?  Oooh, maybe they can use a Perform check instead of Diplomacy?  Nah, can't see giving them that much Perform.
> 
> Cleon, can you agree?




I can agree to that ... and I will!

What about the Bardic Music proposal for their singing?


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## freyar (Dec 13, 2010)

If we're giving them Bardic Music, we might as well be giving them the captivating song.  So we should stick to the Diplomacy bonus, I think.


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## Shade (Dec 14, 2010)

freyar said:


> If we're giving them Bardic Music, we might as well be giving them the captivating song.  So we should stick to the Diplomacy bonus, I think.




Agreed.


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## freyar (Dec 14, 2010)

Ok, then, racial Diplomacy bonus and gaze as

Captivating Gaze (Su): A drowned maiden can attract its killer at any time or any character up to 1? time per day just by looking onto his or her eyes. This is similar to a gaze attack, except that the maiden must use a standard action, and those merely looking at her are not affected. Anyone the potoplenytsia targets must succeed on a DC X Will save or become captivated. This is a mind-affecting charm effect. A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same drowned maiden's gaze for 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma-based, and gains a +4 racial bonus against the drowned maiden's killer. The ability has a range of 30 feet.

A captivated victim walks toward the drowned maiden, taking the most direct route available. If the path leads into a dangerous area (through flame, off a cliff, or the like), that creature gets a second saving throw. Captivated creatures can take no actions other than to defend themselves. (Thus, a fighter cannot run away or attack but takes no defensive penalties.) A victim within 5 feet of the drowned maiden stands there and offers no resistance to the monster’s attacks.

Possibly remove the red text if we keep the 1/day restriction? That way she can keep going after her killer.


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## Cleon (Dec 15, 2010)

freyar said:


> If we're giving them Bardic Music, we might as  well be giving them the captivating song.  So we should stick to the  Diplomacy bonus, I think.




No objection to that.



freyar said:


> Captivating Gaze (Su): A drowned maiden can attract its killer at any time or any character up to 1? time per day just by looking onto his or her eyes. This is similar to a gaze attack, except that the maiden must use a standard action, and those merely looking at her are not affected. Anyone the potoplenytsia targets must succeed on a DC X Will save or become captivated. This is a mind-affecting charm effect. A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same drowned maiden's gaze for 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma-based, and gains a +4 racial bonus against the drowned maiden's killer. The ability has a range of 30 feet.




That first sentence needs some work. It seems overly ugly and confused in its syntax.



freyar said:


> Possibly remove the red text if we keep the 1/day restriction? That way she can keep going after her killer.




I prefer 3/day but would accept 1/day.

How's this:

*Captivating Gaze (Su):* A drowned maiden can attract another creature toward itself just by making eye contact. They can use captivating gaze an unlimited number of times against their killer (the creature who caused her to die and become a drowned maiden), but otherwise have only X uses of captivating gaze per day. Captivating gaze is similar to a gaze attack, except that the maiden must  use a standard action, and those merely looking at her are not affected.  Anyone the potoplenytsia targets must succeed on a DC X Will save or  become captivated. This is a mind-affecting charm effect. A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same drowned maiden's gaze for 24 hours.  The save DC is Charisma-based, and gains a +4 racial bonus against the  drowned maiden's killer. The ability has a range of 30 feet.

A captivated victim walks toward the drowned maiden, taking the most  direct route available. If the path leads into a dangerous area (through  flame, off a cliff, or the like), that creature gets a second saving  throw. Captivated creatures can take no actions other than to defend  themselves. (Thus, a fighter cannot run away or attack but takes no  defensive penalties.) A victim within 5 feet of the drowned maiden  stands there and offers no resistance to the monster’s attacks.


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2010)

It's coming together.  Let's go with 3/day, and keep the rest of the red text.  Any objections?


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## freyar (Dec 16, 2010)

None here.  That should do it for that ability, I think.


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## Cleon (Dec 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> It's coming together.  Let's go with 3/day, and keep the rest of the red text.  Any objections?




Fine by me.


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## Shade (Dec 17, 2010)

Updated.


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2010)

The vile wake seems to be missing (or whatever it's going to be called).

I guess the drowning embrace is next.  Should that be the damage from the touch attack?  Simplify to Con damage or go with a save or be unable to get out of the water?


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## Cleon (Dec 19, 2010)

freyar said:


> I guess the drowning embrace is next.  Should that be the damage from the touch attack?  Simplify to Con damage or go with a save or be unable to get out of the water?




I'm sure we've already got something similar, it's just a question of finding it.


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## freyar (Dec 20, 2010)

I think I'd favor a save or be dragged under the water, immediately requiring Con checks to avoid drowning.  There should be a means to escape each round, but I'm not sure what I'd go with.  Progressively more difficult saves?


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## Shade (Dec 20, 2010)

I haven't found an exact precedent.  Here are some similar abilities...

Drown (Ex): The first victim hit by a dhour's pseudopods must make an opposed grapple check with the dhour. If the dhour wins the check, it draws the victim into its fluid body. The victim takes 2d6+6 points points of acid damage per round, and is also at risk of drowning (see Water Dangers in the Dungeon Master's Guide for the risks and effects of drowning). Because a dhour is composed of protoplasm, spells such as water breathing offer no help in surviving the effect of drowning in their fluids.

A trapped victim can attack the dhour or make additional grapple checks to escape its grasp. The character cannot cast spells with a verbal component or use any other item or ability that requires speech. If other characters use slashing or piercing weapons to attack a dhour while it is holding a victim, those attacks have a 25% chance of hitting the trapped character, and they do no harm to the dhour.

While holding a victim, a dhour continues to attack with its pseudopod, dealing slam damage to other characters. A dhour cannot move while holding a victim.


Drown (Ex): To use this ability, a breathweird must hit an opponent of Medium size or smaller with its slam attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and draws the victim into its fluid body. The victim is at risk of drowning (see Water Dangers in the DMG for the risks and effects of drowning). A trapped victim can attack the breathweird or make additional grapple checks to escape its grasp. The character cannot cast spells with a verbal component or use any other item or ability that requires speech. If other characters use slashing or piercing weapons to attack the breathweird while it is holding a victim, those attacks have a 25% chance of hitting the trapped character, and they do no harm to the breathweird. While holding a victim, the breathweird continues to attack with its pseudopods, dealing slam damage to other characters. Breathweirds have a +12 racial bonus on grapple checks (already figured into the Base Attack/Grapple entry above). 


Drown: The first victim hit by an aballin's pseudopods must make an opposed grapple check with the aballin (the monster's bonus on this check is +11). If the aballin wins this check, it draws the victim into its fluid body. The victim is at risk of drowning (see Water Dangers in the DMG for the risks and effects of drowning). Because the aballin is composed of acid, not water, spells such as water breathing offer no help in surviving the effect of drowning in their fluids.

A trapped victim can attack the aballin or make additional grapple checks to escape its grasp. The character cannot cast spells with a verbal component or use any other item or ability that requires speech. If other characters use edged weapons to attack the aballin while it is holding a victim, those attacks have a 25% chance of hitting the trapped character, and they do no harm to the aballin.

While holding a victim, the aballin continues to attack with its pseudopods, dealing slam damage to other characters.


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## Cleon (Dec 21, 2010)

Of the examples, the breathweird seems the closest.



Shade said:


> Drown (Ex): To use this ability, a breathweird must hit an opponent of Medium size or smaller with its slam attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and draws the victim into its fluid body. The victim is at risk of drowning (see Water Dangers in the DMG for the risks and effects of drowning). A trapped victim can attack the breathweird or make additional grapple checks to escape its grasp. The character cannot cast spells with a verbal component or use any other item or ability that requires speech. If other characters use slashing or piercing weapons to attack the breathweird while it is holding a victim, those attacks have a 25% chance of hitting the trapped character, and they do no harm to the breathweird. While holding a victim, the breathweird continues to attack with its pseudopods, dealing slam damage to other characters. Breathweirds have a +12 racial bonus on grapple checks (already figured into the Base Attack/Grapple entry above).




Here's the relevant bit of the Rusalka's description:



			
				Polyhedron said:
			
		

> Anyone who touches or is touched by the rusalka is subject to its embrace. The rusalka’s embrace pulls its victim beneath the water, causing a victim to drown unless a successful saving throw vs. breath weapon is made. The murderer must make this save with a -3 penalty. The victim may be revived if removed from the rusalka’s embrace (and from the water) and some means of resuscitation is applied within five rounds of being drowned. Those who successfully avoid the embrace must also make a swimming proficiency check or a strength check to break free. The saving throw vs. breath weapon must be repeated each round until the victim either breaks free, is pulled under, or is released by the rusalka.




So, something like:

*Drowning Embrace (Su):* A drowned maiden can try to drown any creature it touches (a melee touch attack) or who touches the maiden. Any creature touched by a drowning embrace must succeed at a DC X Reflex or Fortitude? save or be pulled underwater by an unnatural current. Anyone pulled under must immediately begin Constitution checks to resist drowning (see Water Dangers in the DMG for the risks and effects of drowning). A victim can escape a drowning embrace using the same rules as escaping a grapple, except the drowned maiden uses its Charisma modifier instead of its Strength modifier in the contest. A potoplenytsia can keep as many creatures in a drowning embrace as it can fit within its reach, with no penalties on its checks. The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## freyar (Dec 22, 2010)

The only problem I see here is "who touches the maiden" bit; can you touch an incorporeal critter?  As for the save, I think I'd go with Fort, though I'm actually tempted to say Will due to the incorporeality business.


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> The only problem I see here is "who touches the maiden" bit; can you touch an incorporeal critter?




Good point!  It might be easier to just say "any creature that shares its space with a drowned maiden".



freyar said:


> As for the save, I think I'd go with Fort, though I'm actually tempted to say Will due to the incorporeality business.




I could see any of the three.  

Will if it's "beckoning" them.
Fort if it's essentially holding one's breath (prior to the normal holding one's breath of drowning).
Ref if it's avoiding being "pulled underwater by an unnatural current".

As its currently written, Ref makes the most sense.


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## Cleon (Dec 22, 2010)

freyar said:


> The only problem I see here is "who touches the maiden" bit; can you touch an incorporeal critter?





Yes, we'd better rephrase that. While I guess a creature can touch a drowned maiden in the sense of "touching the space it occupies", it can't make physical contact with one (as in a trip or grapple).

Come to think of it, the also SA needs to say the drowned maiden has to be manifesting to use its Drowning Embrace special attack, I'd better include that.



freyar said:


> As for the save, I think I'd go with Fort, though  I'm actually tempted to say Will due to the incorporeality  business.




Fort is fine by me

Revising...

*Drowning Embrace (Su):* When manifested, a drowned maiden can try to drown any creature it touches with an incorporeal touch attack. Furthermore, a creature that hits a drowned maiden with a natural weapon or touch attack exposes themselves to the maiden's drowning embrace (the drowned maiden is usually immune to damage from such attacks, since it is incorporeal when manifested).

Creatures exposed to the maiden's drowning embrace must succeed at a DC X Fortitude save or be pulled underwater by an unnatural current. Any creature who can not breath water who is pulled  under must immediately begin Constitution checks to resist drowning (see  Water Dangers in the DMG for the risks and effects of drowning). A  victim can escape a drowning embrace using the same rules as escaping a  grapple, except the drowned maiden uses its Charisma modifier instead of  its Strength modifier in the contest.  A potoplenytsia can hold as many  creatures in a drowning embrace as it can fit within its reach, with no  penalties on its checks. The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## Shade (Dec 22, 2010)

Cleon, did you see my post above yours (regarding the saves)?


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## freyar (Dec 28, 2010)

Shade said:


> Cleon, did you see my post above yours (regarding the saves)?



Well, I just did.   Let's make it a Ref save.


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## Shade (Dec 28, 2010)

Signs of life around here.  Another person!   I'd thought I'd missed the Zombie Apocalypse.


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## Cleon (Dec 29, 2010)

Shade said:


> Signs of life around here.  Another person!   I'd thought I'd missed the Zombie Apocalypse.




_*Brraaiinns...

Brainns...

*Braains...
_
Brains... is what we need for the best decision.

Upon reflection, they'll be making Fort saves on their drowning checks if they're pulled under, so we might as well make initial save a Ref one to increase the variety.


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## Shade (Dec 30, 2010)

Updated.

Are we finished with the special abilities?


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## freyar (Dec 31, 2010)

I think so.  Aren't we going with racial bonuses to skills like Diplomacy to help her lure people closer?  In which case, I'd make Diplomacy and some other Cha-based skills the places where she'd spend most ranks.


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## Cleon (Dec 31, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Are we finished with the special abilities?




EDIT: Just remembered something, this rusalka is *immune to holy water!* I think that's interesting enough to base a SQ on, such as.

Immunity to Water: A drowned maiden is immune to the negative effects of all water-based attacks, including _holy water_. :ENDEDIT

I think so, on to skills and feats!

Since they entice victims with non-magical songs and allurements, I'm thinking Bluff and Diplomacy, probably augmented with feats and/or racial bonuses.

Oh, the original Rusalka had a much better AC to non-ethereal foes than this version does - the equivalent of AC20 instead of 16. Do we want to improve its AC or assume its incorporeality is enough to compensate for the lower score?


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## Shade (Jan 3, 2011)

Cleon said:


> EDIT: Just remembered something, this rusalka is *immune to holy water!* I think that's interesting enough to base a SQ on, such as.
> 
> Immunity to Water: A drowned maiden is immune to the negative effects of all water-based attacks, including _holy water_. :ENDEDIT




That'll work.



Cleon said:


> Since they entice victims with non-magical songs and allurements, I'm thinking Bluff and Diplomacy, probably augmented with feats and/or racial bonuses.




Definitely racial bonus, with feats as added possibilities.  +8 racial?



Cleon said:


> Oh, the original Rusalka had a much better AC to non-ethereal foes than this version does - the equivalent of AC20 instead of 16. Do we want to improve its AC or assume its incorporeality is enough to compensate for the lower score?




I'm comfortable either way.


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## Cleon (Jan 4, 2011)

Shade said:


> Definitely racial bonus, with feats as added possibilities.  +8 racial?




How about +6?



Shade said:


> I'm comfortable either way.




I'd prefer an additional +4 to the AC but I'm not too fussed how it gets it. Increased deflection bonus? Dodge or enhancement bonus for "liquid evasiveness"? Maybe she gets a +4 circumstance bonus to her AC when using "Vile Wake".

That reminds me, the drowned maiden is still missing her water-controlling defense. So far we've got something like:
*NAME (Su?):* As a [free] action, a drowned maiden can  create powerful waves or currents in a body of water she is in contact  with. These waves can be formed over any area within a 10 ft. radius of  the drowned maiden, turning the area into difficult terrain. A drowned maiden gains a +4 circumstance bonus to her AC while using NAME.

As a [standard action], a drowned maiden can use her waves to try to  push back or knock over opponents. Resolve this as a Bull Rush or  Overrun attack that does not provoke an attack of opportunity, except  the drowned maiden uses her Charisma modifier on this check instead of  her Strength modifier.​


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## Shade (Jan 4, 2011)

How about we simplify the vile wake to granting her cover (which happens to impart a +4 bonus to AC)?


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## Cleon (Jan 5, 2011)

Shade said:


> How about we simplify the vile wake to granting her cover (which happens to impart a +4 bonus to AC)?




I like the drowned maiden's ability to wash away her foes.

If you want to simplify it we could separate the defensive AC bonus aspect from the offensive "pushing currents" aspect.


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## Shade (Jan 5, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I like the drowned maiden's ability to wash away her foes.




Whoa, whoa...me too!  I didn't express my point well. 

I meant to simply change the +4 circumstance bonus to "grants cover".


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## freyar (Jan 6, 2011)

How did we forget to put that one in?  Agreed to having it grant cover, and that should be enough for the AC.

Are we settled on calling it vile wake?

Bluff, Diplomacy, Listen, Perform (song), Sense Motive, Spot?


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## Shade (Jan 6, 2011)

Looks good.  Updated.

+2 turn resistance?

Did we ever decide upon damage for incorporeal touch?

Feats: 3
Negotiator, Persuasive...what else?


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## freyar (Jan 8, 2011)

+2 turn resistance sounds good. 

The original monster just seemed to expose critters to the drowning embrace with a touch attack, but I'd be ok with adding 1d4 damage (negative energy?), I guess.

I was going to possibly suggest WF (incorporeal touch) or Weapon Finesse, but I'm now confused where the +6 comes from on incorporeal touch (and why +3 vs ethereal).  Also, why give it a Str score?  For the ethereal plane, where it's not incorporeal?  In any case, I get at most +5 = +3 BAB +2 Dex.


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## Cleon (Jan 9, 2011)

Shade said:


> Whoa, whoa...me too!  I didn't express my point well.
> 
> I meant to simply change the +4 circumstance bonus to "grants cover".




That's fine then, but I'd still rather it mentions the bonuses from Cover, just as a reminder. Also, I think it'd be better using "vile wake" instead of "her waves" in the second paragraph.

e.g.:

*Vile Wake (Su):* As a free action, a drowned maiden can create powerful waves or currents  in a body of water she is in contact with. These waves can be formed  over any area within a 10-ft. radius of the drowned maiden, turning the  area into difficult terrain. A drowned maiden gains cover while using  vile wake (+2 to Reflex saves and +4 to AC).

As a standard action, a drowned maiden can use vile wake to try to push  back or knock over opponents. Resolve this as a bull rush or overrun  attack that does not provoke an attack of opportunity, except the  drowned maiden uses her Charisma modifier on this check instead of her  Strength modifier.


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## Cleon (Jan 9, 2011)

Shade said:


> Looks good.  Updated.
> 
> +2 turn resistance?
> 
> ...






freyar said:


> +2 turn resistance sounds good.
> 
> The original monster just seemed to expose critters to the drowning embrace with a touch attack, but I'd be ok with adding 1d4 damage (negative energy?), I guess.
> 
> I was going to possibly suggest WF (incorporeal touch) or Weapon Finesse, but I'm now confused where the +6 comes from on incorporeal touch (and why +3 vs ethereal).  Also, why give it a Str score?  For the ethereal plane, where it's not incorporeal?  In any case, I get at most +5 = +3 BAB +2 Dex.




The updated skills are fine, as is +2 turn resistance.

I suspect the +6 touch is a relic from copy-and-pasting the Spectre and not changing it.

I'd give her Weapon Finesse for a +5 touch attack.

1d4 damage seems too low for a 7 HD monster, I'd go for 1d6 damage, which is still lower than a Spectre.


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## freyar (Jan 10, 2011)

Shouldn't need Weapon Finesse; incorporeal critters use Dex for attacks by default.  Of course, normal incorporeal critters have Str -, too.  Frankly, since drowned maidens don't have any use for Str (they use Cha for drowning embrace), I'd prefer to make Str a nonability.

1d6 is ok, but I went for 1d4 as closer to the original 0.


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## Cleon (Jan 11, 2011)

freyar said:


> Shouldn't need Weapon Finesse; incorporeal critters use Dex for attacks by default.  Of course, normal incorporeal critters have Str -, too.  Frankly, since drowned maidens don't have any use for Str (they use Cha for drowning embrace), I'd prefer to make Str a nonability.




Good point.

How about considering some SRD incorporeal undead for the missing feat:

Shadow: Alertness, Dodge
Spectre: Alertness, Blind-Fight, Improved Initiative
Wraith: Alertness (B), Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative (B)

Of those Blind-Fight or Improved Initiate seem the most tempting. Failing that, I'd consider Lightning Reflexes or Flyby Attack.

Oh, and I think we should give the Drowning Embrace grapple modifier of a typical drowned maiden. i.e. +7 (3 from HD, 4 from Cha).


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## Shade (Jan 11, 2011)

freyar said:


> Shouldn't need Weapon Finesse; incorporeal critters use Dex for attacks by default.  Of course, normal incorporeal critters have Str -, too.  Frankly, since drowned maidens don't have any use for Str (they use Cha for drowning embrace), I'd prefer to make Str a nonability.




Doesn't the manifestation ability necessitate a Str score, though?  Ghosts and other "dual-existence ethereal creatures" have one.

Blind-Fight and Improved Initiative appeal.  Go with those two and Persuasive?

I'm fine with either 1d4 or 1d6 on the touch attack.


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## freyar (Jan 12, 2011)

I like Negotiator, Persuasive, and Imp Init.

I think I like 1d4 on the touch.

I guess the Str score is for fighting ethereal critters, since they're not incorporeal on the ethereal plane.  Ermph.  Let me think about ghosts a bit.


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## Shade (Jan 13, 2011)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: 6?  Although they are comparable in size and HD, they are less deadly than a spectre (CR 7).



> Treasure: W (x rusalka's age in years)






> Rusalki do not contribute to the environment in any way. Various coins and items of jewelry can often be found submerged in the shallows or covered with a layer of sediment near places where rusalki are known to appear. These items are all that is left of the rusalka's victims, and as such, increase with the passing of the years.




Treasure: Standard coins, standard gems, no items?

Advancement: 8–14 HD (Medium) like a spectre?


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## GrayLinnorm (Jan 13, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Challenge Rating: 6? Although they are comparable in size and HD, they are less deadly than a spectre (CR 7).
> 
> ...




Treasure type W had magic items in 2e, so I'd just go with standard.


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## Shade (Jan 13, 2011)

GrayLinnorm said:


> Treasure type W had magic items in 2e, so I'd just go with standard.




Good point!  Agreed.


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## freyar (Jan 14, 2011)

I'd say all done, but I'm still not sure about the Str score, etc.


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## Cleon (Jan 14, 2011)

Shade said:


> Good point!  Agreed.




Standard treasure and 8-14 HD Advancement are good for me.


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## Shade (Jan 18, 2011)

Updated.  Any last thoughts on the Strength score before moving on, freyar?


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## Cleon (Jan 18, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Any last thoughts on the Strength score before moving on, freyar?




I'm happy with it as it is.


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## freyar (Jan 19, 2011)

I still feel like it doesn't really fit, but I don't see a way around it for dual material/ethereal critters.


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## Shade (Jan 19, 2011)

Moving on to the other "rusalka"...

*Lesser Rusalka*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate shores
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Pack
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Constant
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE: 0
ALIGNMENT: Neutral Evil
NO. APPEARING: 1-8
ARMOUR CLASS: 8
MOVEMENT: 9, Sw 12
HIT DICE: 3
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3 (claw/claw/bite)
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d3/1d3/1d4+1
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +2 save vs fire
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M
MORALE: Fanatic (17-18)
XP VALUE: 250

*Greater Rusalka*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate shores
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Pack
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Constant
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10)
TREASURE: Mx2, X
ALIGNMENT: Neutral Evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOUR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: 9, Sw 12
HIT DICE: 5
THAC0: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3 (claw/claw/bite)
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d4/1d4/1d6+1
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +2 save vs fire
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M
MORALE: Fanatic (17-18)
XP VALUE: 500

Rusalki are female undead who haunt bodies of water in temperate regions. A lesser rusalka is created when a female human or demi-human is drowned by either variety of rusalka. This new rusalka is then under the control of the pack leader (a greater rusalka, or the lesser rusalka with the most hit points). A new rusalka retains the physical characteristics she had in life. For example, an elf would be have a light build and pointed ears, a dwarf would be stout and have a beard. In undeath, the rusalka's skin becomes pale, bloated and slightly scaled. Her most noticeable feature is her eyes, which burn with green fire.

For every pack there is an 80% chance that one of the rusalka will be the greater variety. If a greater rusalka is present, she will always be pack leader. In her true form, a greater rusalka appears much like her lesser companions, but with tougher skin and a more intense fire in her eyes. The true form of a greater rusalka is rarely seen due to a permanent illusion surrounding her. This illusion causes the viewer to see an image of the fairest possible female that his or her mind can concoct, clad in only a robe of mist. True seeing, a gem of seeing, or a robe of eyes will allow the viewer to see the greater rusalka's true form.

Combat: The tactics of the rusalki vary depending on whether or not there is a greater rusalka in the pack. If the pack consists entirely of lesser rusalki, they will hide on land close to the water. There they will wait until someone passes nearby, at which time they will attack. Their first action will be to use their gaze attack on one creature with which they are engaged in melee. They can use their gaze attack once per day, with the effect of ray of enfeeblement as cast by a 3rd level mage. They will then proceed to attack with their sharp nails and teeth.

If a greater rusalka is in the pack, she will lure victims into the water where the others hide in waiting. She does this through the use of an audio illusion, a singing voice so sweet it would put an elven minstrel to shame. This song charms (save vs spell to negate) humanoids into approaching its source from up to 30' away. When they come into view of the greater rusalka, they see her (or rather the illusion) standing at the edge of the water. Those males not already charmed must make another save vs spell, with a -2 penalty, or be charmed as well. If unaffected by the charms, the viewer sees past the illusion and retains free will. Those charmed must follow the greater rusalka into the water. When the victim is waist-deep, the lesser rusalki surface behind the victim and attack. As their first attack, both variety of rusalki will attempt to overbear the closest victims and hold them underwater until they drown. If this fails, they will use their gaze attacks and engage in regular melee. The gaze attack ofthe greater rusalki has the effect of the spell eyebite cast by a 5th level mage using the sicken option. The greater rusalki can use their gaze attack 3 times per day, though multiple uses on the same target have no effect.

If a female human or demihuman drowns in the hands of a rusalka, she will rise as a lesser rusalka in six turns unless a remove curse is cast on the body. If a female dies by means other than drowning, she escapes the horrible fate. The pack leader eats all those who die and do not rise as lesser rusalki, including all males. lesser rusalki can be turned as 5 HD undead. Greater rusalki can be turned as 9 HD undead.

Habitat/Society: Rusalki are organized into packs of lesser rusalki led by a greater rusalka. Should the greater rusalka die, the lesser rusalka with the most hit points takes the role as leader. They all walk onto dry land and await a victim. The first humanoid to have the misfortune of coming across them is attacked. The carcass is then fed to the pack leader. After finishing her meal, the pack leader will begin transforming into a greater rusalka. None but the pack leader is allowed to eat at this strange ritual.

Ecology: No one knows where the rusalki menace came from. The most popular theory is that some girl long ago insulted a god. This god caused the girl to fall into a river and drown. She was then cursed to return as an undead. The girl was horror-stricken and she applied the same punishment to anyone who saw her, thus passing the curse along. Whatever their origins, rusalki are unnatural and are not a part of the natural ecology.

Originally appeared in Polyhedron Gencon Special Edition (1999).[/QUOTE]



freyar said:


> Definitely different monsters for the two different types of rusalka (though the "greater" rusalka in the second batch might just be an underbar for the advancement of the "lesser" rusalka).






Cleon said:


> The second "pack" Rusalka seems more like an aquatic vampire than a drowning ghost.






Cleon said:


> There's also an obscure Slav faerie called a Bereginya or Berehinya that's mentioned in a 15th century manuscript. There's a scholar, one Boris Rybakov, who argues it's an earlier name for a Rusalka. The manuscript mentions "vampires and bereginyas" as creatures worshipped by the pre-Christian Slavs.
> 
> So, how about Potoplenytsia  for the ghostly one and Bereginya for the ghoulish ones?






Shade said:


> Potoplenytsia and Bereginya seem best, as Vila is already used in Dragon Magazine #290.


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## freyar (Jan 20, 2011)

Bereginya it is.  I'm starting to think the greater version has enough extra to warrant a new statblock, the same way a greater barghest does.

For the lesser:
Claws and a bite, enfeebling gaze, create spawn, turn resistance +2, and probably imp grab to help with drowning.  Am I missing anything?


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## Cleon (Jan 20, 2011)

freyar said:


> Bereginya it is.  I'm starting to think the greater version has enough extra to warrant a new statblock, the same way a greater barghest does.




Yes, there are enough differences in their characteristics and powers to justify separate statblocks.



freyar said:


> For the lesser:
> Claws and a bite, enfeebling gaze, create spawn, turn resistance +2, and probably imp grab to help with drowning.  Am I missing anything?




They've also got +2 on save vs fire.

Either fire resistance 5 or a bonus on saves vs fire effects?


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## Shade (Jan 21, 2011)

Let's figure out the essentials.

Int is given.   Dex is at best 14 (+2 bonus), considering the AC of 8.  If we give 'em any natural armor, Dex will be lower.  Str is probably similar to a wight (Str 12).  Wis 13 like a wight as well?   Cha 12 like a ghoul?


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## freyar (Jan 21, 2011)

Hmmm, Str 12, Dex 12, Con -, Int 5, Wis 13, Cha 12, +1 NA?  Could work, though I might like Dex 14, 0 NA better.

I'd go with fire resistance 5 for conformity's sake.


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## Cleon (Jan 22, 2011)

freyar said:


> Hmmm, Str 12, Dex 12, Con -, Int 5, Wis 13, Cha 12, +1 NA?  Could work, though I might like Dex 14, 0 NA better.
> 
> I'd go with fire resistance 5 for conformity's sake.




They've got the same claw damage as AD&D ghouls, so giving them the same Strength (which is 13, not 12) in 3E makes sense.

I prefer Dex 14 and no natural armour as well.

That makes something like this:

*Bereginya*
Medium Undead (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 3d12 (19 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), swim 30 ft.
Armor Class: 12 (+2 Dex), touch 12, flat-footed 10
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+3 [+2/+7 with Improved Grapple]
Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d4+1)
Full Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d4+1) and 2 claws +1 melee (1d3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Create spawn, enfeebling gaze, improved grab
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., fire resistance 5, undead traits, +2 turn resistance
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +3, Will +4
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 14, Con –, Int 5, Wis 13, Cha 12
Skills: 6
Feats: 2 Multiattack [plus Improved Grapple?]
Environment: Temperate aquatic
Organization: Solitary, gang (2-4), or pack (3-8 plus 0-1 greater bereginya)
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral evil
Advancement: 4 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: —

Bereginya speak the languages they spoke in life (usually Common).


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## freyar (Jan 23, 2011)

Since Str 12 and 13 have the same bonus, I can't see much of a difference from that argument, really (and we usually take damages to be base damage dice, not necessarily Str indicators).  Anyway, looks good enough.  Ready to move to the gaze?


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## Shade (Jan 24, 2011)

Added to Homebrews.

Improved Grapple would have to be a bonus feat, and is probably unnecessary since we're giving 'em improved grab.  If we really need to improve the grapple modifier, I'd prefer a racial bonus.


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## freyar (Jan 24, 2011)

Just add a racial bonus to imp grab.

Gaze now?


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## Cleon (Jan 25, 2011)

freyar said:


> Since Str 12 and 13 have the same bonus, I can't see much of a difference from that argument, really (and we usually take damages to be base damage dice, not necessarily Str indicators).  Anyway, looks good enough.  Ready to move to the gaze?




Well mostly it's because I preferred the idea of an Undead having 13s in its stats, but Str 13 is also a handy prereq for some feats.


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## Cleon (Jan 26, 2011)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> Improved Grapple would have to be a bonus feat, and is probably unnecessary since we're giving 'em improved grab.  If we really need to improve the grapple modifier, I'd prefer a racial bonus.




Dang it, I keep on forgetting that silly Improved Unarmed Strike prerequisite. They should just say any creature with a natural weapon that does lethal damage is considered to have Improved Unarmed Strike.

I slightly prefer a bonus feat Improved Grapple over a racial bonus, but frankly it makes little difference to me.

Gaze now!


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## Shade (Jan 26, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Gaze now!




I am, but I'm not seeing anything.


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## freyar (Jan 27, 2011)

I definitely prefer the racial bonus, too.

Str 13 is fine for the prereqs, then.  You're thinking something like Power Attack?  Kind of fits, I guess.

I guess the gaze should be an active one, like the vampire...


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## Shade (Jan 27, 2011)

A +4 racial bonus and active gaze appeal.


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## Cleon (Jan 28, 2011)

freyar said:


> I definitely prefer the racial bonus, too.
> 
> Str 13 is fine for the prereqs, then.  You're thinking something like Power Attack?  Kind of fits, I guess.
> 
> I guess the gaze should be an active one, like the vampire...




That's all OK by me. How's this for the gaze(s)?
*
Enfeebling Gaze (Su):* Once per day, a bereginya can weaken a single opponent just by looking onto his or her eyes. This is similar to a gaze attack, except that the bereginya must use a standard action, and those merely looking at it are not affected. Whoever the bereginya targets must succeed on a DC *X* Fort save or instantly take a penalty to Strength as though they had been struck by a _ray of enfeeblement_ spell (caster level equals bereginya's HD; a typical bereginya's enfeebling gaze is CL 3rd and imposes a 1d6+1 Str penalty for 3 minutes). The ability has a range of 30 feet. 

*Biting Gaze? (Su):* Three times per day, a greater bereginya can strike a single  opponent with waves of evil power just by looking onto his or her eyes. This is similar to a gaze  attack, except that the bereginya must use a standard action, and those  merely looking at it are not affected. Whoever the bereginya targets  must succeed on a DC *X* Fort save or be affected as though by an _eyebite_ spell (caster level equals greater bereginya's HD). The ability has a range of 30 feet.


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## Shade (Jan 28, 2011)

Very nice!  My only concern is with the greater version doing "full eyebite".  The original writeup only allowed for sickening.  The comatose option vs. creatures of 4 or less HD seems a bit much for a 5 HD creature!  How about we simplify it to a sickening gaze?


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## freyar (Jan 28, 2011)

Yeah, a 6th level spell is kind of a lot.  But then the sickening gaze is only a touch more powerful than the regular enfeebling gaze.  Is that enough?


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## Shade (Jan 28, 2011)

I'd be OK with the rest of eyebite, just not the coma.


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## Cleon (Jan 29, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'd be OK with the rest of eyebite, just not the coma.




How about a few rounds of nauseated instead of the _eyebite's_ hours of coma?


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## freyar (Jan 31, 2011)

Cleon said:


> How about a few rounds of nauseated instead of the _eyebite's_ hours of coma?



That'd work for me.  1d6 rounds?  Then the full duration for the panicked and sickened part.


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## Cleon (Jan 31, 2011)

freyar said:


> That'd work for me.  1d6 rounds?  Then the full duration for the panicked and sickened part.




Sounds good.


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## Shade (Feb 4, 2011)

Like so?

Biting Gaze? (Su): Three times per day, a greater bereginya can strike a single opponent with waves of evil power just by looking onto his or her eyes. This is similar to a gaze attack, except that the bereginya must use a standard action, and those merely looking at it are not affected. Whoever the bereginya targets must succeed on a DC X Fort save or be affected as though by an eyebite spell (caster level equals greater bereginya's HD), except victims are nauseated for 1d6 rounds rather than rendered comatose. The ability has a range of 30 feet.  The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## Cleon (Feb 4, 2011)

Shade said:


> Like so?
> 
> Biting Gaze? (Su): Three times per day, a greater bereginya can strike a single opponent with waves of evil power just by looking onto his or her eyes. This is similar to a gaze attack, except that the bereginya must use a standard action, and those merely looking at it are not affected. Whoever the bereginya targets must succeed on a DC X Fort save or be affected as though by an eyebite spell (caster level equals greater bereginya's HD), except victims are nauseated for 1d6 rounds rather than rendered comatose. The ability has a range of 30 feet.  The save DC is Charisma-based.




I'm tempted to just list all the effects and drop the reference to eyebite, it'll save the DM having to look it up. I'd fix the duration too, like too make it easier. Something like:

*Biting Gaze (Su):* Three times per day, a greater bereginya can strike a  single opponent with waves of evil power just by looking onto his or  her eyes. This is similar to a gaze attack with a range of 30 feet, except that the bereginya  must use a standard action, and those merely looking at it are not  affected. Whoever the bereginya targets must succeed on a DC X Fort save  or be affected: an opponent with 4 or fewer hit dice is panicked and sickened for an hour, as well as nauseated for 1d6 rounds; an opponent with 5 to 9 hit dice is panicked and sickened for an hour; and an opponent with 10 or more HD is sickened for an hour.  The  save DC is Charisma-based.


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## Shade (Feb 4, 2011)

That's fine with me.


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## Cleon (Feb 5, 2011)

Shade said:


> That's fine with me.




Good!

Why don't you start a Greater Bereginya in homebrews with that Biting Gaze SA and then we can finish off the standard Bereginya?

Weapon Focus, Stealthy or Improved Initiative for the regular Bereginya's other feat?

2 ranks apiece in Hide, Move Silently and Spot?

Challenge Rating 1 since they're about as nasty as Ghouls?


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## Shade (Feb 7, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Good!
> 
> Why don't you start a Greater Bereginya in homebrews with that Biting Gaze SA and then we can finish off the standard Bereginya?




Since they function as packs, would it be best to make the greater version an underbar (or at least part of the same entry)?  Or is this more of a vampire/vampire spawn scenario (and thus, separate entries)?



Cleon said:


> Weapon Focus, Stealthy or Improved Initiative for the regular Bereginya's other feat?
> 
> 2 ranks apiece in Hide, Move Silently and Spot?
> 
> Challenge Rating 1 since they're about as nasty as Ghouls?




That all sounds good, and I favor Stealthy for the feat.


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## Cleon (Feb 8, 2011)

Shade said:


> Since they function as packs, would it be best to make the greater version an underbar (or at least part of the same entry)?  Or is this more of a vampire/vampire spawn scenario (and thus, separate entries)?
> 
> That all sounds good, and I favor Stealthy for the feat.




I did get a vampire/vampire spawn vibe from them, yes.

No objection to keeping it in the same entry, but I'd give them full separate writeups rather than just an underbar for the Greater version.


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2011)

Updated.

For the greater version, I boosted Str by 2 to account for the greater damage dice of the original.  I boosted Cha by 3.  

What should we do about the AC being 2 higher?   Natural armor or Dex boost?


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## Cleon (Feb 10, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> For the greater version, I boosted Str by 2 to account for the greater damage dice of the original.  I boosted Cha by 3.
> 
> What should we do about the AC being 2 higher?   Natural armor or Dex boost?




Why not both? I prefer a boost to Dex 16 and NA +2 to follow the example of the Ghoul (Dex 14, +2 NA) vs. the Ghast (Dex 16, +4 NA). That's 3 points rather than 2, but I like the AC a bit higher than the AD&D version.

A +2 natural armour would be closest to the Vamp/Spawn approach, since those have the same Dex bonus but +6/+3 NA, and I'd not oppose it if you and freyar insist.


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## Shade (Feb 10, 2011)

I'm comfortable with either approach.


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## Cleon (Feb 11, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'm comfortable with either approach.




Shall we go for Dex 16, +2 NA then?


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2011)

Sure.  Updated.


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## Cleon (Feb 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> Sure.  Updated.




Add Listen to its skills?

Their attack is 1 point too high, suggesting they have Weapon Finesse as their second feat instead of Stealthy like the standard version.

Challenge Rating 3?

Advancement: 6-10 HD (Medium) ?


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## Shade (Feb 14, 2011)

Updated.

A bereginya is 5 to 6 feet tall and weighs x pounds.


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## Cleon (Feb 15, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> A bereginya is 5 to 6 feet tall and weighs x pounds.




That should be "greater bereginya", and I think it'd be the same weight as a regular one.


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## freyar (Feb 15, 2011)

Hmmm, if they're waterlogged, they should be heavy.  150-300 lb?  Or did I miss somewhere that they're skinny types?


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## Shade (Feb 15, 2011)

Updated.  

One thing:  The original text mentions that only those females who die by drowning at the hands of the bereginya arise as spawn.  Those who die by any other means are eaten by the pack leader.   Shall we revise create spawn to account for this?


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## freyar (Feb 16, 2011)

Yes, I'd revise that.


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## Shade (Feb 16, 2011)

Updated.  Anything left?


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## freyar (Feb 16, 2011)

Not that I see.


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## Cleon (Feb 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Anything left?




Firstly, I think it's too heavy. A human body is roughly 85% as dense as water (it can vary quite a bit depending on body fat) and doesn't have _that_ much air volume to become water-logged.

150-200 pounds would suit me better.

Although 300 pounds is OK if the bigger Bereginya become grotesquely overweight from eating their victims... 

Secondly, it looks like you've forgotten something:



> The true form of a greater rusalka is rarely seen due to a permanent illusion surrounding her. This illusion causes the viewer to see an image of the fairest possible female that his or her mind can concoct, clad in only a robe of mist. _True seeing_, a _gem of seeing_, or a _robe of eyes_ will allow the viewer to see the greater rusalka’s true form.




A simple _disguise self_ type (Su) power would cope with that. We could modify the Living Disguise SQ we came up with for the Amiq Rasol:

*Living Disguise (Su):* An amiq rasol is under a permanent illusion (glamer) effect which makes it appear to be a living creature. A Spot check which beats the amiq rasol's Disguise check (the Rasol gets a +10 bonus on this check) will reveal it to be some kind of unnatural monster, but not what kind; it requires an additional DC 18 Knowledge (religion) check to reveal it is an Undead. A creature that touches the amiq rasol may also make a DC 18 Will save to recognize it is undead. This does not dispel the illusion nor reveal its true appearance. Only a _true seeing_ effect or entry into an anti-magic field can reveal the amiq rasol's true appearance. The _detect undead_ spell will also reveal the Rasol's true nature, but not its true appearance. Creatures with the scent special quality receives a +10 bonus on the above checks to penetrate the amiq rasol's living disguise. The check and save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2011)

150-200 pounds appeals.

Living disguise is a great idea.   Do we need to change anything other than the "amiq rasol" references and the DC?


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## freyar (Feb 18, 2011)

Nope, this all looks good to me.


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2011)

Updated.  Finished?


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## freyar (Feb 18, 2011)

Looks good to me.


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## Cleon (Feb 19, 2011)

Shade said:


> 150-200 pounds appeals.
> 
> Living disguise is a great idea.   Do we need to change anything other than the "amiq rasol" references and the DC?




A name and DC update will do.



Shade said:


> Updated.  Finished?




There are a few "rusalki" left in the combat entry that need changing to "bereginya":
If a greater bereginya is present, she lures victims into the water,  where the lesser rusalki surface behind the victim and attack. As their  first attack, both variety of rusalki will attempt to overbear the  closest victims and hold them underwater until they drown. If this  fails, they will use their gaze attacks and engage in regular melee. ​I also wondered about adding "cold aquatic" to "temperate aquatic" for the Environment, since parts of Russia get awfully cold. Also "aquatic" might mislead the reader to think they can be found in the sea, when they live in rivers or lakes.
*Environment:* Cold or temperate freshwater?​


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## Shade (Feb 21, 2011)

Cleon said:


> *Environment:* Cold or temperate freshwater?​




I'd rather stick to the standard of simply referring to water as "aquatic" rather than "freshwater" or "saltwater" on the Environment line.  I'll make sure to note that they dwell in freshwater in the flavor text.

Updated.  Finished?


----------



## Cleon (Feb 22, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'd rather stick to the standard of simply referring to water as "aquatic" rather than "freshwater" or "saltwater" on the Environment line.  I'll make sure to note that they dwell in freshwater in the flavor text.
> 
> Updated.  Finished?




We could get rid of the "in temperate regions" from "Bereginya are aquatic undead who haunt bodies of freshwater in temperate regions". It seems superfluous and doesn't allow for the cold we've added to the environment.

How's this?

Bereginya are aquatic undead who haunt bodies of freshwater. They prefer regions where the surface of water freezes in winter and are not found in tropical climates.


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## Cleon (Feb 22, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Finished?




Just noticed the Greater Bereginya should be minus one plus:

*Organization:* Solitary or pack (1 plus 3-8 plus bereginya)


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## Cleon (Feb 22, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Any last thoughts on the Strength score before moving on, freyar?




Just remembered a typo in the ghostly potoplenytsia version of the Rusalki - we're either missing an "n" or have gained an "e".

Various coins and items of jewelry can often be found submerged in the  shallows or covered with a layer of sediment near places where drowned  maides are known to appear. These items are all that is left of the  maiden's victims, and as such, increase with the passing of the years.


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## Shade (Feb 23, 2011)

Fixed.


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## Cleon (Feb 25, 2011)

Shade said:


> Fixed.




Looks OK. Let's move on to the next one.


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## Shade (Feb 25, 2011)

*Geran*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Deserts
FREQUENCY: Very Rare
ORGANIZATION: Tribal
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Omnivorous
INTELLIGENCE: Exceptional
TREASURE: A
ALIGNMENT: Lawful Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 40-160
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 9
HIT DICE: 4 + 1
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 or 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: by weapon or 1-8/1-8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: +3 To Hit with Geran Impaler
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Invisibility, +2 bonus on all saves
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 10%
SIZE: M (6')
MORALE: Elite (13-14)
X.P. Value: 420, Precept 420, Thane 650, Jarl 975, Chieftain 1,400

Psionics Summary:
Level: 5
Dis/Sci/Dev: 2/4/10
Attack/Defense: EW,II/IF,M-,MB,TW
Score: 15
PSPs: 95
Psychokinesis: Sciences-telekinesis, detonate; Devotions-ballistic attack, inertial barrier, molecular agitation, molecular manipulation
Telepathy: Sciences-mind link, tower of iron will; Devotions-ego whip, contact, id insinuation, intellect fortress, mind bar, mind blank

Geran are found primarily in the rocky badlands of Athas. Most are hardworking, peaceful beings who strive to overcome the harsh climate of their homeland. Their communities are orderly and law-abiding. Outsiders are viewed with suspicion.

Because of the intense heat, geran wear little clothing, usually just a loin cloth, and upon rare occasions, ornamental jewelry. When preparing for battle, a geran also adorns himself with a belt decorated with the skulls of those he has killed. The skulls are intended to warn away opponents. Geran speak their own tongue in addition to the language of the Gith and Belgoi. There is a 10% chance a geran will be able to speak the local Common dialect.

Combat: Geran prefer to use their psionic talents to frighten intruders from their domain. However, if the enemy cannot be scared, the geran resort to a harmful exhibition of their psionic powers.

When forced into melee, geran typically attack with a weapon called an impaler. This is a polearm that looks like a javelin on one end; the other end is capped with a large, curved, razor-sharp blade. The blade is used to sever victims' heads to be added to the geran's collection.

If a geran is disarmed, he can attack twice a round with clawed hands. Each attack delivers 1-8 points of damage. The geran view such battle tactics as barbaric, resorting to them only in extreme situations.

While in their home terrain geran blend in with their surroundings so that they are effectively invisible.

Habitat/Society: Geran live in hillside abodes carved out of the badlands rock. The homes are simple and usually house one family consisting of 1-2 adult males, 1-3 adult females, and 2-8 young.

For every 20 geran encountered, there will be a thane of 5+2 HD and 100 PSPs. The thane acts as the leader of the geran war units.

If 50 or more geran are encountered, they will be led by a jarl of 6+3 HD, 120 PSPs, and a psionic score of 16, plus one additional psionic discipline. The jarl is held in high esteem in geran society and is always guarded by a force of five geran and one thane.

When 120 or more geran are encountered, they will be led by a high chieftain. The high chieftain has 8+2 HD, has 150 PSPs, and is psionic level 8. He has a base score of 17 for all psionic checks. In addition to the normal psionic powers held by the gerans, the high chieftain also has the sciences of disintegrate and project force and the devotions of animate object and soften. The high chieftain is guarded by a jarl, three thanes, and 15 other gerans. The high chieftain is also assisted by a precept that is treated as a normal geran with the additional psionic talent of cell adjustment. The precept serves as the tribal healer and advisor to the chieftain.

Ecology: Geran are miners and hunters relying on themselves for survival.

Geran mines usually are well guarded operations that seldom delve below 50' into the ground. Geran are especially successful in mining various forms of gems. Gerans are frequently sought by traders and treasure hunters.

Originally appeared in Polyhedron #74 (1992).


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## freyar (Feb 27, 2011)

For some reason, I have a mental picture of these as reptilian.  Am I right, or are they more insectoid?  Anyway, I guess I'd say humanoid, though there's no reason to suppose they couldn't be monstrous humanoids.

Should the various leaders just be advanced by character class?

And do the psionics look more like PLAs or innate manifestation?


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## Cleon (Feb 27, 2011)

Humanoid (Psionic) or Monstrous Humanoid (Psionic) I guess.

What do these chaps actually look like? That would help us select a type.


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## Shade (Feb 28, 2011)

Cleon said:


> What do these chaps actually look like? That would help us select a type.




Unfortunately, I have no idea.   Echohawk posted the stats for me awhile back.

Do you want to work on a different one until Echohawk returns?


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## Shade (Mar 2, 2011)

I found a pic via Google-Fu...


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## freyar (Mar 7, 2011)

Well, I suppose they could go either way, though they're probably not any more monstrous than a gnoll is.  I'd just say monstrous humanoid for the heck of it.


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## Cleon (Mar 7, 2011)

freyar said:


> Well, I suppose they could go either way, though they're probably not any more monstrous than a gnoll is.  I'd just say monstrous humanoid for the heck of it.




Hmm, I feel that goofy left hand and feet are weird enough to rate Monstrous, so that type's fine by me.


----------



## Shade (Mar 8, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Hmm, I feel that goofy left hand and feet are weird enough to rate Monstrous, so that type's fine by me.




Agreed.   

Let's figure out ability scores.

Int is Exceptional (15-16).  Cha is probably comparable, with the psionic focus.   Dex should at least be decent enough to qualify for Two-Weapon Fighting (since they wield a double weapon).  Str 15 and Con 13 like a gnoll?

Str 15, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 16, Wis 15, Cha 16?


----------



## Cleon (Mar 8, 2011)

Shade said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Let's figure out ability scores.
> 
> Int is Exceptional (15-16).  Cha is probably comparable, with the psionic focus.   Dex should at least be decent enough to qualify for Two-Weapon Fighting (since they wield a double weapon).  Str 15 and Con 13 like a gnoll?




Since it's called an impaler maybe they only use the javelin-blade in combat? The blade could only be used to sever the heads of those they slay. It's not really clear from the description.

Still, I like it better as a double weapon.



Shade said:


> Str 15, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 16, Wis 15, Cha 16?




That Dex seems rather generous. They don't look very graceful in the picture. How about shifting a point from Dex to Con? That'll balance out the ability bonus's while still giving them the Dex prerequisite for TWF.

They have a psionic score of 15 listed, so shouldn't most of their mental stats be 15?

Str 16, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 15, Cha 15


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## Shade (Mar 8, 2011)

Added to Homebrews.

Shall we figure out the impaler? 

I'm thinking a glaive end (1d10/x3) and a javelin end (1d6/x2).  Perhaps allow it to be used as a reach weapon (like a glaive) when not employing it as a double weapon?


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## freyar (Mar 11, 2011)

I like that for the impaler.  Also, make it exotic for any other species.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 11, 2011)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> Shall we figure out the impaler?
> 
> I'm thinking a glaive end (1d10/x3) and a javelin end (1d6/x2).  Perhaps allow it to be used as a reach weapon (like a glaive) when not employing it as a double weapon?




Hmm. I'd rather it do 1d8/1d8 like most Medium-sized double weapons.

The impression I get from the text is that the pointed end is the primary weapon, so I would like it do more damage. Also, a glaive is a 2H weapon, but shouldn't the blade end do damage equal to a 1H/Light weapon?

How about a 1d8/x3 piercing for the "javelin" end (same as a spear) and 1d8/x3 slashing for the cleaver end (equal to a battleaxe). We could still give it Reach and treat it as a Glaive or Longspear when wielded two handed if you like.


----------



## Shade (Mar 11, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Hmm. I'd rather it do 1d8/1d8 like most Medium-sized double weapons.




Bo-ring.  



Cleon said:


> The impression I get from the text is that the pointed end is the primary weapon, so I would like it do more damage. Also, a glaive is a 2H weapon, but shouldn't the blade end do damage equal to a 1H/Light weapon?




Not necessarily.  The double scythe deals damage equal to a scythe on both ends.  



Cleon said:


> How about a 1d8/x3 piercing for the "javelin" end (same as a spear) and 1d8/x3 slashing for the cleaver end (equal to a battleaxe). We could still give it Reach and treat it as a Glaive or Longspear when wielded two handed if you like.




If we have to reduce the damage (i.e., I'm outvoted ), I suppose this at least makes it somewhat more interesting than a dwarven urgrosh.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> Bo-ring.
> 
> Not necessarily.  The double scythe deals damage equal to a scythe on both ends.




That weapon's not OGL and is even more of an abomination than the SRD double weapons.



Shade said:


> If we have to reduce the damage (i.e., I'm outvoted ), I suppose this at least makes it somewhat more interesting than a dwarven urgrosh.




Well if I get outvoted on the "glaive damage" reduction I would still want to make the lance-end nastier so it's a good option for the primary attack. After all, it's called an "Impaler" so should be best at impaling!

It'd help if the original writeup said how much damage the Impaler did!

How about 2d4/x3 piercing for the "javelin end" (like a Ranseur) and 2d4/19-20 slashing for the "glaive end"? That's pretty close to a Double Scythe. If we want to match a Scythe's 2d4/x4 it could be 2d4/x4 plus 2d4/18-20 (like a falchion).


----------



## Shade (Mar 14, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Well if I get outvoted on the "glaive damage" reduction I would still want to make the lance-end nastier so it's a good option for the primary attack. After all, it's called an "Impaler" so should be best at impaling!




As such, it should be able to set for a charge.  What better way to achieve impalement?  



Cleon said:


> It'd help if the original writeup said how much damage the Impaler did!




It sure would!



Cleon said:


> How about 2d4/x3 piercing for the "javelin end" (like a Ranseur) and 2d4/19-20 slashing for the "glaive end"? That's pretty close to a Double Scythe. If we want to match a Scythe's 2d4/x4 it could be 2d4/x4 plus 2d4/18-20 (like a falchion).




Most (if not all) polearms are x3, so I'd like to stick to that for the glave end.  I can live with 2d4 for both ends, though.  2d4x3 slashing (glaive end)/2d4x3 piercing (javelin end) and can be used with reach (glaive end) and set to receive a charge (javelin end)?


----------



## Cleon (Mar 14, 2011)

Shade said:


> As such, it should be able to set for a charge.  What better way to achieve impalement?
> 
> It sure would!
> 
> Most (if not all) polearms are x3, so I'd like to stick to that for the glave end.  I can live with 2d4 for both ends, though.  2d4x3 slashing (glaive end)/2d4x3 piercing (javelin end) and can be used with reach (glaive end) and set to receive a charge (javelin end)?




Well I can live with x3 for both, I preferred an 18-20 on the other end to give it more variety, but it's not a big deal for me.

I'm having second thoughts on the Reach. Wouldn't that imply it's too long to easily wield both ends against the same opponent? Furthermore, I can't think of any double weapons with Reach.

Would you be satisfied with just double damage vs charging opponent for the pokey-end.


----------



## Shade (Mar 14, 2011)

That's fine.  I'm not sure where I got the idea that double weapons existed that could be used as reach weapons if wielded two-handed.  

Bringing it all together:

Impaler:  The impaler consists of a long spear with a halberd-like blade mounted on the opposite end. An impaler is an exotic double weapon. You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.  If you use a ready action to set the spear end of an impaler against a charge, you deal double damage on a successful hit against a charging character.

The spear end of an impaler deals 2d4 points of piercing damage and deals triple damage on a critical hit.  The halberd end of an impaler deals 2d4 points of slashing damage and deals triple damage on a critical hit. 
Cost: x gp; Weight: x lb. 


Weapon Familiarity: Gerans may treat impalers as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons.


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## freyar (Mar 15, 2011)

Looks pretty good to me!  12 lb roughly like a halberd?  60 gp, which is a bit better than a dwarven urgrosh?


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## Shade (Mar 16, 2011)

Looking at the picture upthread, I think it far more closely resembles a glaive than a halberd.  While the damage can remain the same, that would better explain why the polearm end can't be used to set for a charge (like a halberd) or be better for trip attacks (like a halberd).

In other words, change the text to "glaive end" rather than "halberd end", and leave everything else the same.   Is that acceptable?


----------



## freyar (Mar 17, 2011)

That works for me.  Want to reduce weight to 10lb, like a glaive?


----------



## Cleon (Mar 18, 2011)

Shade said:


> That's fine.  I'm not sure where I got the idea that double weapons existed that could be used as reach weapons if wielded two-handed.
> 
> Bringing it all together:
> 
> ...




I'd cut the "long" from that "long spear" to avoid confusion with a longspear.



Shade said:


> Looking at the picture upthread, I think it far  more closely resembles a glaive than a halberd.  While the damage can  remain the same, that would better explain why the polearm end can't be  used to set for a charge (like a halberd) or be better for trip attacks  (like a halberd).
> 
> In other words, change the text to "glaive end" rather than "halberd  end", and leave everything else the same.   Is that acceptable?






freyar said:


> That works for me.  Want to reduce weight to 10lb, like a glaive?





I think it should be heavier. An orc double ax (15 lb) is more than  twice as heavy as a battleaxe (6 lb) as is a two-bladed sword (10 lb) compared to a longsword (4 lb). A dire flail (10 lb) is twice as  heavy as a flail (5 lb).

12 pounds seems a minimum, being the combined weight of a battleaxe (6 lb) and a spear (6 lb).

I'd rather increase it to 15 pounds, since it does more damage than either of those weapons.


----------



## freyar (Mar 21, 2011)

Even 15 lb is ok by me.  Can't say I'm fussed by it.


----------



## Shade (Mar 21, 2011)

Sounds good.

Updated.

Time to tackle the psionics.



> Psionics Summary:
> Level: 5
> Dis/Sci/Dev: 2/4/10
> Attack/Defense: EW,II/IF,M-,MB,TW
> ...




Psi-like abilities or inherent manifester levels?


----------



## freyar (Mar 21, 2011)

That kind of seems like innate manifesting to me, even if the flavor doesn't particularly lend itself to that interpretation.  Maybe they could be psychic warrior manifestation or something.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 23, 2011)

freyar said:


> That kind of seems like innate manifesting to me, even if the flavor doesn't particularly lend itself to that interpretation.  Maybe they could be psychic warrior manifestation or something.




They've got some Psion-only powers, which suggests Psychic Warrior is out, leaving either psion manifestation or PLAs.

Their psion manifestation would need to be higher than 5th level to give them the powers they have listed, so I'm leaning towards PLAs.


----------



## Shade (Mar 24, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Their psion manifestation would need to be higher than 5th level to give them the powers they have listed, so I'm leaning towards PLAs.




I think I'm going to have to agree.   We can always  make psychic warrior their favored class for those with class levels.


----------



## freyar (Mar 24, 2011)

PLAs are good enough.  Like I said, the flavor doesn't really fit innate manifestation.  Just direct conversion to PLAs, then?


----------



## Shade (Mar 24, 2011)

Sounds like a plan!

telekinesis = Telekinetic Force
detonate = ?
ballistic attack = Telekinetic Thrust
inertial barrier
Molecular Agitation = Matter Agitation
Molecular Manipulation = Matter Manipulation (metacreativity)
mind link
tower of iron will
ego whip
contact = ?
id insinuation
intellect fortress
mind bar = Mind Blank, Personal
mind blank


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## freyar (Mar 25, 2011)

We decided a few conversions ago that there's no need for contact in 3.5 psionics, so we can just drop that.  As for detonate, I have a strong feeling that we converted that as a Ps (or maybe Su) ability for a frog-like Dark Sun creature a while back.  Let me see: Yes!  The daggoran has:

Detonate (Ps): Three times per day, a daggoran can detonate the crystalline growth on its back. This is similar to the hail of crystals power, except any creature or object struck by the ball of crystal takes 2d4 points of bludgeoning damage, and anyone within 20 feet of the explosion takes 3d4 points of slashing damage. This is the equivalent of a 2rd-level power. Manifester level 3rd.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 25, 2011)

freyar said:


> We decided a few conversions ago that there's no need for contact in 3.5 psionics, so we can just drop that.  As for detonate, I have a strong feeling that we converted that as a Ps (or maybe Su) ability for a frog-like Dark Sun creature a while back.  Let me see: Yes!  The daggoran has:
> 
> Detonate (Ps): Three times per day, a daggoran can detonate the crystalline growth on its back. This is similar to the hail of crystals power, except any creature or object struck by the ball of crystal takes 2d4 points of bludgeoning damage, and anyone within 20 feet of the explosion takes 3d4 points of slashing damage. This is the equivalent of a 2rd-level power. Manifester level 3rd.




That'll do for a foundation. The regular version should work on most small, solid objects (rocks, clay jugs, et cetera) rather than being limited to a crystal growth, of course.


----------



## freyar (Mar 29, 2011)

Something like this?

Detonate (Ps): X times per day, a geran can detonate any solid object of no more than 1/2 lb in weight within 30 ft.  (Attended or magic items receive a DC X Fortitude save to negate this effect.) This is similar to the hail of crystals power, except any creature or object struck by the ball of crystal takes 2d4 points of bludgeoning damage, and anyone within 20 feet of the explosion takes 3d4 points of slashing damage. This is the equivalent of a 2rd-level power. Manifester level 3rd.

Might need to look at the hail of crystals power again to check this...


----------



## Cleon (Mar 31, 2011)

freyar said:


> Something like this?
> 
> Detonate (Ps): X times per day, a geran can detonate any solid object of no more than 1/2 lb in weight within 30 ft.  (Attended or magic items receive a DC X Fortitude save to negate this effect.) This is similar to the hail of crystals power, except any creature or object struck by the ball of crystal takes 2d4 points of bludgeoning damage, and anyone within 20 feet of the explosion takes 3d4 points of slashing damage. This is the equivalent of a 2rd-level power. Manifester level 3rd.
> 
> Might need to look at the hail of crystals power again to check this...




I'd tweak it a bit. Didn't the original detonate power allow a user to throw detonating objects?

How about:

Detonate (Ps): X times per day, a geran can detonate any solid object of  no more than 1/2 lb in weight within 30 ft. Attended or magic items  receive a DC Y Fortitude save to negate this effect. Any creature or object within 20 feet of the detonation takes 3d4 points of bludgeoning/slashing damage (DC Z Reflex for half?).  Any target in contact with the detonating object takes 3d6? points of bludgeoning/slashing damage with no saving throw.

Alternatively, a geran can hurl an object as a thrown weapon with a 20 foot range increment. The object detonates on impact, doing damage as above. Use a ranged touch attack to determine if the detonating object makes contact with its intended target. If it misses, use the throw splash weapon rules to determine which square the object detonates in.

This is the equivalent of a 2rd-level power. Manifester level 3rd.


----------



## freyar (Apr 5, 2011)

Reasonable enough.  Shade?


----------



## Cleon (Apr 6, 2011)

freyar said:


> Reasonable enough.  Shade?




Shall we work on the other PLAs while waiting for Shade to detonate?


----------



## Shade (Apr 6, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Shall we work on the other PLAs while waiting for Shade to detonate?




BOOM!  

The revised detonate looks reasonable.  We'll need to figure out daily usages for all these abilities.  Since it's only 4 HD, I'd imagine most will be only 1/day, with the exception of 1st-level powers and maybe one or two higher ones.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 8, 2011)

Shade said:


> BOOM!




Dang it, I'll be picking bits of Shade out of my hair for days.



Shade said:


> The revised detonate looks reasonable.  We'll need to figure out daily usages for all these abilities.  Since it's only 4 HD, I'd imagine most will be only 1/day, with the exception of 1st-level powers and maybe one or two higher ones.




Yes, 1/day for most of them should be plenty.

3/day for the _matter agitation_?

2/day for _ego whip_ and _id insinuation_?


----------



## Shade (Apr 8, 2011)

Cleon said:
			
		

> Dang it, I'll be picking bits of Shade out of my hair for days.




So I'm a nit?  

Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 9, 2011)

Shade said:


> So I'm a nit?




I was tempted to maintain a diplomatic silence, but why else do you think I pick on you? 



Shade said:


> Updated.




Those PLAs look OK.

We've still got "While in their home terrain geran blend in with their surroundings so that they are effectively invisible."

Something like the _chameleon_ psionic power, usable at-will?


----------



## Shade (Apr 11, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Something like the _chameleon_ psionic power, usable at-will?




Perhaps.  It will allow them to blend in equally well outside their "home terrain", but that's not necessarily a bad thing.


----------



## freyar (Apr 12, 2011)

I think that some of the dashes copied into the homebrews are turning into hash tags.  But I agree that these look right, and I also like the chameleon power for them.


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## Cleon (Apr 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> Perhaps.  It will allow them to blend in equally well outside their "home terrain", but that's not necessarily a bad thing.




I was thinking of "Exceptionalizing" _chameleon_ so it only worked in their home terrain. Maybe they have to psychically tune themselves to a territory for it to work?


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## Shade (Apr 13, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I was thinking of "Exceptionalizing" _chameleon_ so it only worked in their home terrain. Maybe they have to psychically tune themselves to a territory for it to work?




I don't mind that.  We'll probably need to write it up separately from the simple PLA list to spell that out.


----------



## freyar (Apr 13, 2011)

Yes, make it a unique Ps ability that they can use maybe anywhere they've lived for at least 1 month or 1 year?


----------



## Cleon (Apr 14, 2011)

Shade said:


> I don't mind that.  We'll probably need to write it up separately from the simple PLA list to spell that out.




That's what I was thinking of doing, yes, although I'm tempted to make it a (Su).


----------



## Shade (Apr 14, 2011)

freyar said:


> Yes, make it a unique Ps ability that they can use maybe anywhere they've lived for at least 1 month or 1 year?






Cleon said:


> That's what I was thinking of doing, yes, although I'm tempted to make it a (Su).




I can agree with all this.


----------



## freyar (Apr 15, 2011)

Su is fine if you prefer, but it's probably easiest to tie to the power's descriptions.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 15, 2011)

freyar said:


> Su is fine if you prefer, but it's probably easiest to tie to the power's descriptions.




I was thinking something like this:
*
"Territorial Chameleon" (Su):* A geran can change the color and texture of its skin and equipment to match the natural terrain of its territory, gaining a a +10 enhancement bonus on Hide checks. It takes a geran's chameleon power 24 hours to adjust to a new territory, during which time it must wander its new home examining the landscape.


----------



## Shade (Apr 15, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I was thinking something like this:
> *
> "Territorial Chameleon" (Su):* A geran can change the color and texture of its skin and equipment to match the natural terrain of its territory, gaining a a +10 enhancement bonus on Hide checks. It takes a geran's chameleon power 24 hours to adjust to a new territory, during which time it must wander its new home examining the landscape.




I like it.  I'm wondering if a bit longer to acclimate would make them less uber-playable race fodder?  Maybe at least a week?


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## Cleon (Apr 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> I like it.  I'm wondering if a bit longer to acclimate would make them less uber-playable race fodder?  Maybe at least a week?




That's funny, my first draft used a week but I changed my mind and changed it to 24 hours.

How's this then:

*"Territorial Chameleon" (Su):* A geran can change the color and  texture of its skin and equipment to match the natural terrain of its  territory, gaining a a +10 enhancement bonus on Hide checks. It takes a  geran's a week to adjust its chameleon power to a new territory, during this week the geran must spend at least 6 hours each day wandering its new home to familiarize itself with the landscape.


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## freyar (Apr 16, 2011)

That works for me.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 17, 2011)

freyar said:


> That works for me.




Good!

Skills and feats then.

I think they'll need to be tough, so I'd use Great Fortitude for their remaining feat.

Some combination of Climb, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Profession (miner), Spot and Survival for the skills?

Maybe a small racial bonus to Profession (miner) since they're "especially successful in mining various forms of gems"?


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## Shade (Apr 18, 2011)

Territorial chameleon looks great!

The skills look good, but I'd suggest Intimidation as well...



> When preparing for battle, a geran also adorns himself with a belt decorated with the skulls of those he has killed. The skulls are intended to warn away opponents.




I'm not feeling Great Fortitude for the feat.  Endurance would make more sense to reflect their "surviving harsh conditions", but I'd argue that Stealthy or Alertness would be even more appropriate, as they are primarily hunters.


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## freyar (Apr 19, 2011)

Give Climb, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, and Survival 5 ranks each, Profession (Miner) 2 ranks (with a small bonus), and Intimidate 3 ranks?

I think I'd have to pick Endurance, just since it's the least used of all those feats.


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## Shade (Apr 19, 2011)

I approve.  While we await Cleon, thoughts on a non-psionic underbar?


----------



## Cleon (Apr 21, 2011)

freyar said:


> Give Climb, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, and Survival 5 ranks each, Profession (Miner) 2 ranks (with a small bonus), and Intimidate 3 ranks?
> 
> I think I'd have to pick Endurance, just since it's the least used of all those feats.




That looks pretty good. I'm thinking we don't need the Intimidate ranks or quite so many Survival ranks. Maybe lower Survival to 2 ranks and cut out Intimidate to max out Listen, Spot and Move Silently?

Climb 5, Hide 5, Listen 7, Move Silently 7, Spot 7, Survival 2, Profession (Miner) 2 (with a +2 bonus)

Hmm, I would like a bit more Survival than that - maybe cut a point each from Listen, Spot and Miner to put Survival back to 5?

Climb 5, Hide 5, Listen 6, Move Silently 7, Spot 6, Survival 5, Profession (Miner) 1 (with a +2 bonus)


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## Shade (Apr 22, 2011)

Cleon said:


> That looks pretty good. I'm thinking we don't need the Intimidate ranks or quite so many Survival ranks. Maybe lower Survival to 2 ranks and cut out Intimidate to max out Listen, Spot and Move Silently?
> 
> Climb 5, Hide 5, Listen 7, Move Silently 7, Spot 7, Survival 2, Profession (Miner) 2 (with a +2 bonus)
> 
> ...




I still think they need Intimidate.  See post #529 for justification.

I think we can do without Climb (or at least less ranks) and don't think they need Listen and Spot higher than the rest.  The description strongly supports stealth, with a lesser emphasis on other hunting and mining skills.  

Suggested revision...

Hide 7, Intimidate 3, Listen 5, Move Silently 7, Profession (Miner) 3 (with a +2 bonus), Spot 5, Survival 5


----------



## Cleon (Apr 23, 2011)

...Dang it, I forgot to cut a point from Listen in the last skill proposal in my previous post. Better fix it.



Shade said:


> I still think they need Intimidate.  See post #529 for justification.
> 
> I think we can do without Climb (or at least less ranks) and don't think they need Listen and Spot higher than the rest.  The description strongly supports stealth, with a lesser emphasis on other hunting and mining skills.
> 
> ...




Well, I guess I'm OK with Intimidate. However, I don't think they need to max-out Hide due to their Chameleon SQ.


If they live in mountains I'd think they might need to clamber up rocks & cliffs on occasion, so they'd better have Climb. How about shifting 2 from Hide and Survival into Climb?

Revising...

Climb 4, Hide 5, Intimidate 3, Listen 5, Move Silently 7, Profession (Miner) 3 (with a +2 bonus), Spot 5, Survival 3


----------



## Shade (Apr 25, 2011)

That'll work.  Updated.



> Habitat/Society: Geran live in hillside abodes carved out of the badlands rock. The homes are simple and usually house one family consisting of 1-2 adult males, 1-3 adult females, and 2-8 young.
> 
> For every 20 geran encountered, there will be a thane of 5+2 HD and 100 PSPs. The thane acts as the leader of the geran war units.
> 
> ...





Organization: Solitary, family (2-5 plus 2-8 noncombatant young), war unit (20-50 plus one 5th-level thane per 20 gerans), x (51-120 plus one 5th-level thane per 20 gerans and one 6th-level jarl per 50 gerans), or tribe (121-160  plus one 5th-level thane per 20 gerans, one 6th-level jarl per 50 gerans, one xth-level precept, and one 8th-level high chieftain).

Challenge Rating: 4?  It's essentially a 4th-level ranger with added abilities.

Treasure: Standard?  Type A is a little bit of everything.

Alignment: Usually lawful neutral?

Advancement: By character class?

Level Adjustment: +4?  It has unbalanced ability scores, natural armor, spell resistance, and psi-like abilities.

A geran is usually 6 feet tall and weighs 200 to 250 pounds?



> Geran speak their own tongue in addition to the language of the Gith and Belgoi. There is a 10% chance a geran will be able to speak the local Common dialect.




Gith and Belgoi are both official 3e languages in Dungeon Magazine #110.

Geran speak Belgoi, Gith, and their own language.  Leaders often additionally speak Common.


----------



## freyar (Apr 26, 2011)

Let's call the org with the jarl a war troop or somesuch.
Make the precept an 8th level adept.

I'll agree to all the rest.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 26, 2011)

Shade said:


> Organization: Solitary, family (2-5 plus 2-8 noncombatant young), war unit (20-50 plus one 5th-level thane per 20 gerans), x (51-120 plus one 5th-level thane per 20 gerans and one 6th-level jarl per 50 gerans), or tribe (121-160  plus one 5th-level thane per 20 gerans, one 6th-level jarl per 50 gerans, one xth-level precept, and one 8th-level high chieftain).




How about "task force" for the 51-120 organisation?

7th level for the precept?

The tribe should list noncombatants since the family does.

That'd make it...

Organization: Solitary, family (2-5 plus 2-8 noncombatant young), war  unit (20-50 plus one 5th-level thane per 20 gerans), task force (51-120 plus one  5th-level thane per 20 gerans and one 6th-level jarl per 50 gerans), or  tribe (121-160  plus 50-200 noncombatant young, one 5th-level thane per 20 gerans, one 6th-level  jarl per 50 gerans, one 7th-level precept, and one 8th-level high  chieftain).



Shade said:


> Challenge Rating: 4?  It's essentially a 4th-level ranger with added abilities.
> 
> Treasure: Standard?  Type A is a little bit of everything.
> 
> ...




All the above is fine by me, assuming the two mentioned languages are OGL legal.


----------



## Shade (Apr 26, 2011)

Updated.

The languages aren't OGL, but it's easy enough to find conversions of those other two conversions on the offical Dark Sun site.

The flavor text and description may need some polish.


----------



## freyar (Apr 27, 2011)

I'd strongly favor making the precept an adept or even cleric or egoists since they handle healing.


----------



## Mortis (Apr 27, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Dang it, I'll be picking bits of Shade out of my hair for days.






			
				Shade said:
			
		

> So I'm a nit?






			
				Cleon said:
			
		

> I was tempted to maintain a diplomatic silence, but why else do you think I pick on you?




Okaaaayy... I'll bite...

I guess that makes Cleon our official nit picker. 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Apr 28, 2011)

Mortis said:


> Okaaaayy... I'll bite...
> 
> I guess that makes Cleon our official nit picker.




He's licensed and certified.


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## Shade (Apr 28, 2011)

freyar said:


> I'd strongly favor making the precept an adept or even cleric or egoists since they handle healing.




Egoist seems a great fit!


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## freyar (Apr 28, 2011)

With the addition of "egoist" to the precept and changing the emdashes in the PLA listing to dashes to avoid hashtagging, are they done?


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## Shade (Apr 28, 2011)

Updated.

We shall await the Royal Picker of Nits (TM).


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## Cleon (May 2, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> We shall await the Royal Picker of Nits (TM).




Territorial Chameleon has "gaining a a +10 enhancement".

I thought an impaler looks like a spear with a glaive at the base. Doesn't the description's "_a wicked-looking curved polearm with a spearhead on the other end_" make it the wrong way round?

"_It carries a wicked-looking polearm with a spearhead at one end and a curved blade on the other._"?

The original geran had a +3 bonus to hit with an impaler. I'm wondering whether we should add some ability that boosts their impaler attack. Maybe a racial bonus, like an elf has with a longsword or bow?


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## freyar (May 2, 2011)

Where do elves get that racial bonus?  All I see in the SRD is weapon proficiency.  I guess there's precedent for thrown weapons with halflings, though.  I think weapon familiarity is probably enough for gerans, though I'm not too concerned either way.


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## Shade (May 4, 2011)

freyar said:


> Where do elves get that racial bonus?  All I see in the SRD is weapon proficiency.  I guess there's precedent for thrown weapons with halflings, though.  I think weapon familiarity is probably enough for gerans, though I'm not too concerned either way.




I believe that was the 3.0 benefit, now gone in 3.5.   I too think weapon familiarity is sufficient.

I fixed the others stuff Cleon found.   Finished?


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## freyar (May 5, 2011)

Looks fine to me.


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## Shade (May 6, 2011)

I'll await Cleon's final lookthrough before moving on, as this was a complex one.


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## Shade (May 10, 2011)

While we await Cleon, I'll throw the next one out there.   These may be separate creatures, our may be a template or grouping, so I'm listing 'em all...


Air fish

*Shark*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Humid tropical
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Pack
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 2-8
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: Fl 24, MC:C
HIT DICE: 5-6
THAC0: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M 4'-5'
MORALE: Fearless (19)
XP VALUE: 5 HD: 270, 6 HD: 420

*Piranha*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Humid tropical
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Shoal
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 5-30
ARMOR CLASS: 8
MOVEMENT: Fl 6, MC:C
HIT DICE: 1/2
THAC0: 20
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-2
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Swarm
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: T 8"-10"
MORALE: Unsteady (6)
XP VALUE: 15

*Ray, Sting*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Humid tropical
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Group
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-3
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVEMENT: Fl 9, MC
HIT DICE: 1
THAC0: 20
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-3
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Paralyzation
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Camouflage
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: S 5'
MORALE: Unsteady (5)
XP VALUE: 175

*Catfish*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Humid tropical/temperate
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Group
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-3
ARMOR CLASS: 9
MOVEMENT: Fl 6, MC:C
HIT DICE: 1-1
THAC0: 20
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-2
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: T 16"-20"
MORALE: Unsteady (6)
XP VALUE: 35

*Trout*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Humid tropical
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: School
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 2-20
ARMOR CLASS: 9
MOVEMENT: Fl 6, MC:C
HIT DICE: 1-1
THAC0: 20
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-2
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: T 12"-16"
MORALE: Unsteady (7)
XP VALUE: 35

*Goldfish*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Humid tropical
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: School
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-20
ARMOR CLASS: 8
MOVEMENT: Fl 6, MC:B
HIT DICE: 1/2
THAC0: 20
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: T 6"-8"
MORALE: Unsteady (5)
XP VALUE: 15

*Neon*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Humid
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: School
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Non- (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 6-120
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVEMENT: Fl 3, MC:A
HIT DICE: 1 hp
THAC0: 20
NO. OF ATTACKS: Nil
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Nil
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Obscurement
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: T 2"
MORALE: Unreliable (4)
XP VALUE: 15

Magically altered for decoration or guard duty, air fish are creatures which can breathe air and fly. They have a natural ability to levitate, and they "swim" through the air by moving their tails and fins.

Habitat/Society: Though air-fish can survive in any damp environment, they prefer forests or other congested areas which offer places to hide. They are comfortable only in humid air, which they need to keep their skins moist. In dry air, they suffer one hit point of damage per hour until dead.
Air sharks, air piranha, and air stingrays make good, if not loyal, guards if captured and confined. Air goldfish and air neons have decorative and pest-killing functions.

Ecology: Air sharks and air piranha are aggressive predators and exist near the top ofthe food chain, having few natural predators. Other air fish are both predator and prey, although air goldfish and air neons have an impact only on insect populations, cutting down especially on mosquitoes and gnats. Most air fish are edible, though air sharks, air catfish, and air trout are the best tasting.

Air fish reproduce by laying eggs or egg sacs. Most lay their eggs on the ground or on plants, though air trout use their tails to dig holes for their thousands of eggs, and air catfish carry their eggs in their mouths, eating nothing for the two-month incubation period.

Air shark: These killing machines are just as dangerous in their new environment as their cousins are in water. Attracted by movement and noise, they swim toward any clamor, attacking moving or wounded creatures. They are also attracted by blood, which they can smell at a distance of 100 yards. If they smell blood, or if they wound their prey, they go into a berserk frenzy, attacking anything that resembles food. Air sharks are large and strong enough to be used as mounts by tiny humanoids, but must be trained from birth.

Air piranha: Merciless and aggressive, these black fish inflict a painful bite with their large teeth. There is a 75% chance that at least one of them will attack any creature that moves nearby. Air piranha can smell fresh blood at a distance of 30 feet, and will move rapidly toward any wounded creature. The smell of blood drives them berserk, and they attack twice per melee round (double their normal attack rate).

Air stingray: These creatures stay within three feet of the ground, blending in with the foliage and giving attackers a - 2 on surprise rolls. If any creature steps on an air-stingray, it lashes out with its tail spine, inflicting 1-3 points of damage; any creature struck must also save versus poison or be paralyzed for 5-20 turns, suffering points of damage equal to the number of turns of paralysis.

Air catfish: These aggressive air fish possess sharp hearing and a well-developed sense of smell. They prefer to eat other air fish, but have tremendous appetites and will also attack other creatures. Air catfish are territorial.

Air trout: These also prefer to eat other air fish, but will attack other small and tiny creatures. If meat is scarce, air trout eat insects and larvae.

Air goldfish: These pretty creatures are brown when hatched, but when they reach adulthood, they turn red, black, white, orange, or some combination of these colors. They will eat almost anything, but avoid pursuing creatures larger than themselves.

Air neon: The beautiful air neons, with iridescent blue stripes along their red-orange bodies, were created for decoration. They have no effective attack on creatures larger than themselves. They eat insects and seeds. Air neons are skittish, fleeing from loud noises or quick movements, but are not threatened by potential predators which remain still. They may fly about characters, looking for food or fleeing from predators, and may obscure an individual's vision. Individuals whose vision is obscured by air neons have a -1 penalty on attack rolls.

Originally appeared in Polyhedron #69 (1992).


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## freyar (May 10, 2011)

I'd make this a template that can be applied to any aquatic animal w/o the amphibious SQ (maybe).  But I'm not sure if there are trout, goldfish, etc, anywhere.


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## Shade (May 12, 2011)

That is the problem with making it a template.  About half those critters don't have stats, and honestly, probably don't need 'em.

Maybe we should just make a generic "air fish" at several size categories and note what type of fish fit into those categories.   And then also make a template to apply to larger fish like sharks and rays and to magical beasts of any size.  Thoughts?


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## freyar (May 12, 2011)

That's reasonable.  Maybe start with the template (which should be simple) and then figure out some base stats to apply it to for the smaller ones.  I'd do Diminutive through Small explicitly, I guess, then the template.  Sound right?


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## Shade (May 12, 2011)

Sure.  So let's see what we need...

A flight speed (with maneuverability variable by size)
Water-based scent becomes air-based
"Moisture-dependent" (I think we did this for another creature)

Anything else?


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## freyar (May 12, 2011)

Moisture dependent does sound familiar, but I can't remember where we might have done it.  I think gillmen in Pathfinder have it, so we could always look there.  I know they're in the campaign setting, so I can look that up tonight for inspiration.

Anyway, that does sound like all we need.


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## Shade (May 12, 2011)

Found it!

Moisture Dependent (Ex): If a hendar spends more than 24 hours without entering water its skin grows dry and brittle, reducing its natural armor by 2. A hendar with dried-out skin must must make a Constitution check each hour (DC 10, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d4 points of damage. The hendar can cure its dried-out skin by soaking in water for a minute, which restores its AC to normal.


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## freyar (May 13, 2011)

Ah hah!  The original monster doesn't have the AC bit, but we could keep it or not as you like.  I think the Con check and damage works fine for these, as does the healing.  But should we keep the requirement to "without entering water" or change it to "outside of a humid environment"?


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## Shade (May 13, 2011)

I think we can drop the AC portion and agree to "humidity" rather than full immersion in liquid.


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## freyar (May 16, 2011)

Let's keep the requirement of entering liquid to heal up, though.

Moisture Dependent (Ex): If an air fish spends more than 24 hours outside a humid environment, its skin grows dry and brittle. An air fish with dried-out skin must must make a Constitution check each hour (DC 10, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d4 points of damage. The air fish can cure its dried-out skin by soaking in water for one minute.


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## Shade (May 18, 2011)

Looks great!


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## Cleon (May 19, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'll await Cleon's final lookthrough before moving on, as this was a complex one.




Shouldn't the impaler use a 1.5 Str bonus when wielded as a single weapon, since presumably the Geran will use both hands?

Also, there's no point listing the impaler twice in the Attack Line, since both ends do the same amount of damage, just different types.

Revising...

*Attack:* Claw +7 melee (1d4+3) or impaler +7 melee (2d4+4/x3)
*Full Attack:* 2 claws +7 melee (1d4+3);  or impaler +7 melee (2d4+4/x3); or impaler +5 melee (2d4+3/x3) and impaler +5 melee (2d4+1/x3)

Apart from that tweak I think we're OK.


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## Cleon (May 19, 2011)

freyar said:


> I'd make this a template that can be applied to any aquatic animal w/o the amphibious SQ (maybe).  But I'm not sure if there are trout, goldfish, etc, anywhere.




Tricky. The shark, sting ray and piranha are basically just aerial versions of the regular creature, but the rest of them look like originals.

To make it more difficult, I don't believe the official 3E Sting Ray and Piranha are OGL.

My current preference is starting with a template with a Medium-sized shark as the sample creature, then create the rest as new monsters using that for inspiration.

Incidentally, some of these smaller critters seem overpowered - 1-1 HD and 1-2 damage for a _trout_!

Maybe make Air Fish all Dire Animals, to explain why they're so tough?


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## Shade (May 19, 2011)

Updated Geran.



Cleon said:


> Tricky. The shark, sting ray and piranha are basically just aerial versions of the regular creature, but the rest of them look like originals.
> 
> To make it more difficult, I don't believe the official 3E Sting Ray and Piranha are OGL.




Correct.  In fact, no "piranha" exists...only a piranha swarm.



Cleon said:


> My current preference is starting with a template with a Medium-sized shark as the sample creature, then create the rest as new monsters using that for inspiration.




I'm fine with starting that way, although I'd like to keep a template option.



Cleon said:


> Incidentally, some of these smaller critters seem overpowered - 1-1 HD and 1-2 damage for a _trout_!
> 
> Maybe make Air Fish all Dire Animals, to explain why they're so tough?




I'd rather reduce their power level than make them dire.   I still think a simple airfish in Fine, Diminutive, and Tiny size would work, and just note the special bits for the named variants.


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## freyar (May 19, 2011)

Less is more here, methinks.  Let's figure out the template by working on the shark.

I also don't think we're required to stat out each one individually if we make it as a template.


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## Cleon (May 21, 2011)

freyar said:


> Less is more here, methinks.  Let's figure out the template by working on the shark.
> 
> I also don't think we're required to stat out each one individually if we make it as a template.




Well, they obviously either lose their Aquatic subtype or gain the Amphibious SQ.

Add a fly speed, obviously.

The sample's got the 5 HD of a mid-sized AD&D shark, so do we drop it to 3 HD like the Medium-sized SRD or make the Skyfish Template increase HD? I prefer increased Hit Dice, to explain the 1/2 HD trout!


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## Shade (May 24, 2011)

I'd prefer to not tamper with HD.  I'd rather ignore the original (wonky) HD and try to shoehorn them into compatible 3.5 HD.

Medium shark is fine.   Definitely add flight.  I favor adding amphibious rather than dropping Aquatic, but could be convinced otherwise.


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## Cleon (May 28, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'd prefer to not tamper with HD.  I'd rather ignore the original (wonky) HD and try to shoehorn them into compatible 3.5 HD.
> 
> Medium shark is fine.   Definitely add flight.  I favor adding amphibious rather than dropping Aquatic, but could be convinced otherwise.




My first instinct was to make them Amphibious, but reading the entry I don't see any mention of them being able to breathe water. It says "air fish are creatures which can breathe air and fly" and "air-fish can survive in any damp environment, they prefer forests or other  congested areas which offer places to hide. They are comfortable only in  humid air, which they need to keep their skins moist".

Furthermore, the air-shark entry says they "are just as dangerous in their new environment as their cousins are in water", which implies that they don't live in water like their "cousins".

I think I'm going to vote for dropping the Aquatic.


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## Cleon (May 28, 2011)

Oh, and the Air Stingray is missing a manoeuverability class. I'm thinking the original would most likely be MC:C, since that's the most common.

Is the stat missing from the original article?


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## Cleon (May 28, 2011)

We'd better settle on what name to give this conversion.

We've got eight "air fish" against one "air-fish" plus an "air-catfish", so the numbers favour the former.


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## Cleon (May 28, 2011)

freyar said:


> Moisture Dependent (Ex): If an air fish spends  more than 24 hours outside a humid environment, its skin grows dry and  brittle. An air fish with dried-out skin must must make a Constitution  check each hour (DC 10, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d4 points  of damage. The air fish can cure its dried-out skin by soaking in water  for one minute.




By the way, I like this Moisture Dependent write up.

Should we change the name to Humidity Dependent?

I'd also like to add an "or by staying in a humid atmosphere for an hour" to the end.

e.g.:

*Humidity Dependent (Ex):* If an air fish spends  more than 24 hours outside a humid environment, its skin grows dry and  brittle. An air fish with dried-out skin must must make a Constitution  check each hour (DC 10, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d4 points  of damage. The air fish can cure its dried-out skin by soaking in water  for one minute, or by staying in a humid atmosphere for an hour.


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## freyar (May 30, 2011)

"Air Fish" works.

Humidity Dependent as in Cleon's post above is good.

I slightly favor dropping Aquatic subtype, also.

And I'd really rather not change the HD.


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## Cleon (May 31, 2011)

Okay, let's start roughing out a Template...


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## Cleon (May 31, 2011)

*Air Fish Working Draft*

*Air Fish*
_This fish flies through the air as if it were swimming in water__.

_Air fish are aquatic animals that have been magically altered to live in the air. They have a natural ability to levitate, and "swim" through the air by moving their tails and fins.

Air fish breathe air, they have lost their ancestors' ability to breathe water and can drown like most air-breathing creatures. Wild air fish are only found in hot, humid environments, such as rainforests or tropical swamps. They must keep their skins and gills moist to avoid death by dehydration. 
 
*Creating an Air Fish*
"Air Fish" is an inherited template that can be added to any animal with the Aquatic subtype (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

*Size and Type*
 The base creature's type changes to Magical  Beast and it loses its  Aquatic subtype. An air fish retains all the  base  creature's  statistics and special abilities except as noted below.
*
Hit Dice
*An air fish's Hit Dice increase to 1d10; recalculate the base creature's hit points.

  *Speed*
An air fish gains a fly speed equal to the base creature's fastest  movement rate. Its aerial maneuverability rating is average if the base  creature Small or larger, good if it is Tiny or smaller.

_*Cleon Special Version
*_An air fish gains a fly speed equal to the base creature's  fastest movement rate. Its aerial maneuverability rating is average if the base creature Small-size or larger, good if it it Tiny-sized or smaller, If the base creature has a Dexterity of 16 or more, its aerial maneuverability rating increases by 1 step, if it has a Dexterity of 6 or less, its aerial maneuverability class lowers by 1 step.

 *Base Attack Bonus*
An air fish has a base attack bonus equal to its total Hit Dice (as a Magical Beast).

*Special Qualities*
An air fish retains all the abilities of the base creature and gains the following abilities.

_Flight (Ex):_  An air fish's body is naturally buoyant. This buoyancy allows it to fly and also grants it a permanent _feather fall_ effect (as the spell) with personal range.

_Humidity Dependent (Ex):_  If an air fish spends  more than 24  hours outside a humid environment, its skin grows dry and  brittle. An  air fish with dried-out skin must make a Constitution  check each  hour (DC 10, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d4 points  of damage.  The air fish can cure its dried-out skin by soaking in water  for one  minute, or by staying in a humid atmosphere for an hour.     

*Feats*
An air fish gains Hover as a bonus feat. If the base creature has a feat that is only usable in water (like Swimby Attack) it can exchange it for another feat (such as Flyby Attack).

*Environment*
Any warm land.

*Challenge Rating*
Same as the base creature.

*Level Adjustment*
Same as the base creature.

*Sample Air Fish*
 The following creatures have gained the air fish template.

*Air Shark, Large
*Large Magical Beast
*Hit Dice:*  7d10+7 (45 hp)
*Initiative:*  +6
*Speed:*  Swim 60 ft. (12 squares), fly 60 ft. (average)* [*(good) _in Cleon Special version_*]*
*Armor Class:*  15 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 13
*Base Attack/Grapple:*  +7/+14
*Attack:*  Bite +9 melee (1d8+4)
*Full Attack:*  Bite +9 melee (1d8+4)
*Space/Reach:*  10 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:*  —
*Special Qualities:*  Blindsense, flight, humidity dependency, keen scent
*Saves:*  Fort +8, Ref +7, Will +3
*Abilities:*  Str 17, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
*Skills:*  Listen +8, Spot +7, Swim +11
*Feats:*  Alertness, Great Fortitude, Hover (B), Improved Initiative
*Environment:*  Warm land
*Organization:*  Solitary, school (2–5), or pack (6–11)
*Challenge Rating:*  2
*Advancement:*  8–9 HD (Large)
*Level Adjustment:*  —

These carnivorous flying fish are aggressive and liable to make unprovoked attacks against anything that approaches them. Large air sharks can reach around 15 feet in length and are a serious threat. 

*COMBAT* 
Air sharks circle and observe potential prey, then dart in and bite with their powerful jaws.
*
Blindsense (Ex)* *: *A shark can locate creatures underwater within a 30-foot radius. This ability works only when the shark is underwater.


*Flight (Ex):*  An air shark's body is naturally buoyant. This buoyancy allows it to fly and also grants it a permanent _feather fall_ effect (as the spells) with personal range.

*Humidity Dependent (Ex):*  If an air shark spends  more than 24  hours outside a humid environment, its skin  grows dry and  brittle. An  air shark  with dried-out skin must make a  Constitution  check each  hour (DC 10, +1 for each previous check) or  take 1d4 points  of damage.  The air shark  can cure its dried-out skin by  soaking in water  for one  minute, or by staying in a humid atmosphere  for an hour.     

*Keen Scent (Ex)* *: *A shark can notice creatures by scent in a 180-foot radius and detect blood in the water at ranges of up to a mile.

*Skills:* A shark has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


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## Shade (May 31, 2011)

It looks like a good start.  Don't forget to add flight and humidity dependent to the sample creature's SQ line.


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## Cleon (May 31, 2011)

Shade said:


> It looks like a good start.  Don't forget to add flight and humidity dependent to the sample creature's SQ line.




Dang it, I did. Easy enough to fix.

Better give it Hover while I'm at it...


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## freyar (Jun 4, 2011)

I thought we were just using the template for big ones and statting out "generic" air fish at the smaller sizes, right?


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## Cleon (Jun 5, 2011)

freyar said:


> I thought we were just using the template for big ones and statting out "generic" air fish at the smaller sizes, right?




I don't mind doing generic little air fish, but I'd rather allow for templated ones as well so we can do specific little air fish such as "air weed eels", "air scorpionfish".


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## Shade (Jun 6, 2011)

freyar said:


> I thought we were just using the template for big ones and statting out "generic" air fish at the smaller sizes, right?




That was the plan...



Cleon said:


> I don't mind doing generic little air fish, but I'd rather allow for templated ones as well so we can do specific little air fish such as "air weed eels", "air scorpionfish".




...although I don't mind this as well.


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## freyar (Jun 6, 2011)

Allowing templated smaller ones is fine by that logic, sure.  But I wouldn't mind a simpler way to work out maneuverability.


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## Cleon (Jun 7, 2011)

freyar said:


> Allowing templated smaller ones is fine by that logic, sure.  But I wouldn't mind a simpler way to work out maneuverability.




That WAS the simple method. 

We could just go "average manoeuvrabililty for Small or bigger, good manoeuvrabililty for Tiny or less" I suppose.


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## Shade (Jun 7, 2011)

Cleon said:


> We could just go "average manoeuvrabililty for Small or bigger, good manoeuvrabililty for Tiny or less" I suppose.




I'd be content with that.


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## freyar (Jun 8, 2011)

Same here.  Ok, that seems settled.  Template all done?


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## Cleon (Jun 8, 2011)

freyar said:


> Same here.  Ok, that seems settled.  Template all done?




Suppose so, although I quite liked the earlier complicated version. 

Do we delete the stuff in blue or leave it in?

Are the changes worth a modification to the CR?

Personally, I think not.


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## freyar (Jun 10, 2011)

Most of the blue stuff can go, but I think leaving "same as base creature" for CR is helpful.


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2011)

freyar said:


> Most of the blue stuff can go, but I think leaving "same as base creature" for CR is helpful.




Agreed.  Ditto for Level Adjustment.


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## Cleon (Jun 10, 2011)

freyar said:


> Most of the blue stuff can go, but I think leaving "same as base creature" for CR is helpful.




Works for me.


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## freyar (Jun 13, 2011)

Ok, then.  On to the "generic" smaller airfish?


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## Cleon (Jun 13, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ok, then.  On to the "generic" smaller airfish?




So, are we going to start at Tiny and work up to Colossal, like with Monstrous Vermin?

Since the original had 1-1 and 1/2 HD for the Tiny Air Fish, I'm thinking we should set the Hit Dice progression something like:

Tiny 1/2 HD
Small 1 HD
Medium 3 HD
Large 6 HD
Huge 12 HD
Gargantuan 24 HD
Colossal 48 HD

Tiny 1/2 HD
Small 1 HD
Medium 2 HD
Large 5 HD
Huge 10 HD
Gargantuan 20 HD
Colossal 40 HD

That matches pretty well the Tiny and Small original Air Fish and the SRD's Large Manta Ray (4 HD), Medium (3HD) and Large (7HD) Sharks plus the Medium Squid (3HD). It's also not far off from _Stormwrack's_ Medium Barracuda (2 HD).

Of the two I prefer the 5/10/20/40 progression.


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## Shade (Jun 13, 2011)

I'd be content to stop at Small, or even Medium.  We've got plenty of larger fishlike creatures to represent the larger varieties that might exist.

In other words, I can't think of a generic Gargantuan or Colossal real-world fish that needs representation.


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## Cleon (Jun 13, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'd be content to stop at Small, or even Medium.  We've got plenty of larger fishlike creatures to represent the larger varieties that might exist.
> 
> In other words, I can't think of a generic Gargantuan or Colossal real-world fish that needs representation.




How about cutting off at Large then? There are plenty of fish that big in the seas.


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## Shade (Jun 14, 2011)

Cleon said:


> How about cutting off at Large then? There are plenty of fish that big in the seas.




Sure, that's reasonable.


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## freyar (Jun 14, 2011)

As you like.  I imagine most of the important Large fish have stats already, but I don't mind doing a generic one.  The propsed HD look ok, too.


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## Cleon (Jun 15, 2011)

freyar said:


> As you like.  I imagine most of the important Large fish have stats already, but I don't mind doing a generic one.  The propsed HD look ok, too.




Good! I'll whip up a working draft using _Stormwrack's_ Barracuda as a model.


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## Cleon (Jun 15, 2011)

*Generic Air Fish Working Draft*

*Air Fish, Tiny*
Tiny Magical Beast
*Hit Dice:* ½d10 (2 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* Swim 40 ft. (8 squares), fly 40 ft. (good)
*Armor Class:* 14 (+2 size, +2 Dex), touch 14, flat-footed 12
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +1/-11
*Attack:* Bite +5 melee (1d3-4)
*Full Attack:* Bite +5 melee (1d3-4)
*Space/Reach:* 2½ ft./0 ft.
*Special Attacks:* —
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, flight, humidity dependency, scent
*Saves:* Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 3, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
*Skills:* Listen +3, Spot +3, Swim +4
*Feats:* Hover (B), Weapon Finesse
*Environment:* Any warm land
*Organization:* Solitary or school (2–20)
*Challenge Rating:* 1/6
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* —
*Level Adjustment:* —

*Air Fish, Small*
Small Magical Beast
*Hit Dice:* 1d10 (5 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* Swim 40 ft. (8 squares), fly 40 ft. (average)
*Armor Class:* 13 (+1 size, +2 Dex), touch 11, flat-footed 11
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +1/-5
*Attack:* Bite +4 melee (1d4-2)
*Full Attack:* Bite +4 melee (1d4-2)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* —
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, flight, humidity dependency, scent
*Saves:* Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 7, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
*Skills:* Listen +3, Spot +3, Swim +6
*Feats:* Hover (B), Weapon Finesse
*Environment:* Any warm land
*Organization:* Solitary or school (2–5)
*Challenge Rating:* 1/4
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 2–3 HD (Medium)
*Level Adjustment:* —

*Air Fish, Medium*
Medium Magical Beast
*Hit Dice:* 2d10 (11 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* Swim 40 ft. (8 squares), fly 40 ft. (average)
*Armor Class:* 13 (+2 Dex, +1 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 11
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +2/+2
*Attack:* Bite +4 melee (1d6)
*Full Attack:* Bite +4 melee (1d6)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* —
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, flight, humidity dependency, scent
*Saves:* Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 11, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
*Skills:* Listen +3, Spot +4, Swim +8
*Feats:* Hover (B), Weapon Finesse
*Environment:* Any warm land
*Organization:* Solitary or school (2–5)
*Challenge Rating:* 1/2
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 3–4 HD (Medium); 5-6 HD (Large)
*Level Adjustment:* —

*Air Fish, Large*
Large  Magical Beast
*Hit Dice:* 5d10+10 (37 hp)
*Initiative:* +1
*Speed:* Swim 40 ft. (8 squares), fly 40 ft. (average)
*Armor Class:* 13 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +3 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 12
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +5/+13
*Attack:* Bite +9 melee (1d8+6)
*Full Attack:* Bite +9 melee (1d8+6)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* —
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, flight, humidity dependency, scent
*Saves:* Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +2
*Abilities:* Str 19, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
*Skills:* Listen +5, Spot +5, Swim +12
*Feats:* Flyby Attack, Hover (B), Weapon Focus (bite)
*Environment:* Any warm land
*Organization:* Solitary or school (2–5)
*Challenge Rating:* 2
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 6–9 HD (Large); 10-15 HD (Huge)
*Level Adjustment:* —

_This fish flies through the air as if it were swimming in water__._

Air fish are aquatic animals that have been magically altered to live in  the air. They have a natural ability to levitate, and "swim" through  the air by moving their tails and fins.

Air fish breathe air, they have lost their ancestors' ability to breathe  water and can drown like most air-breathing creatures. Wild air fish  are only found in hot, humid environments, such as rainforests or  tropical swamps. They must keep their skins and gills moist to avoid  death by dehydration. 

COMBAT
Most air fish are not aggressive, fleeing perceived threats. They will bite in self-defense if unable to escape. Some of the larger carnivorous air fish may try to eat humanoids when particularly hungry, but they prefer to prey upon small animals.

*Flight (Ex):*  An air fish's body is naturally buoyant. This buoyancy allows it to fly and also grants it a permanent _feather fall_ effect (as the spells) with personal range.

*Humidity Dependent (Ex):*  If an air fish spends  more than 24  hours outside a humid environment, its skin  grows dry and  brittle. An  air fish   with dried-out skin must make a  Constitution  check each  hour  (DC 10, +1 for each previous check) or  take 1d4 points  of damage.  The  air fish can cure its dried-out skin by  soaking in water  for one  minute, or by staying in a humid atmosphere  for an hour.     

*Skills:* An air fish has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special  action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim  check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while  swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2011)

Added to Homebrews.



> Air neon: The beautiful air neons, with iridescent blue stripes along their red-orange bodies, were created for decoration. They have no effective attack on creatures larger than themselves. They eat insects and seeds. Air neons are skittish, fleeing from loud noises or quick movements, but are not threatened by potential predators which remain still. They may fly about characters, looking for food or fleeing from predators, and may obscure an individual's vision. Individuals whose vision is obscured by air neons have a -1 penalty on attack rolls.




This one suggests a sample swarm of air fish.


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## Cleon (Jun 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> This one suggests a sample swarm of air fish.




I was thinking the same. 

Except I was thinking *two* Air Fish Swarms, one Diminutive (goldfish-sized) and one Tiny (trout-sized).

Maybe make them specific, e.g. Air Piranha Swarm and Air Goldfish Swarm, rather than generic?


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## GrayLinnorm (Jun 16, 2011)

Why is the air fish an animal? It should be a magical beast.  The original description says they were magically altered.


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2011)

GrayLinnorm said:


> Why is the air fish an animal? It should be a magical beast.  The original description says they were magically altered.




Excellent point!  These should be magical beasts, IMHO.


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2011)

Man, how did all 3 of us miss that?

I think the swarms should probably be generic.  After all, aren't there piranha swarms in some official source that people can use the template with?


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## Cleon (Jun 17, 2011)

GrayLinnorm said:


> Why is the air fish an animal? It should be a magical beast.  The original description says they were magically altered.




Funny, I thought we'd already argued about that point.

Didn't we decide to keep it an Animal because the Air Fish didn't have any supernatural powers, since their Flight is (Ex) like a Beholder's?

Just 'cause they're magically altered doesn't mean the resulting beastie has to be magical.

Plus, if we keep them Animal we can use the base creature's BAB, HD, hp and attacks as-is without having to add a "do not change from base creature" explanation in the Template. Either that or we have to reformulate all the sample creatures we've got.

It also means that Air Fish are affected by some animal-control spells that are useless against Magical Beasts, barring an "affected by spells as if they are Animals" SW.

Anyhow, I'm OK with Animal Air Fish but don't mind Magical Beast either.

So, which is it going to be?


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2011)

freyar said:


> I think the swarms should probably be generic.  After all, aren't there piranha swarms in some official source that people can use the template with?




Yep, Stormwrack.


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## Cleon (Jun 17, 2011)

freyar said:


> Man, how did all 3 of us miss that?
> 
> I think the swarms should probably be generic.  After all, aren't there piranha swarms in some official source that people can use the template with?




Better yet, we could do *three* sample swarms, a generic "Tiny Air Fish" swarm, to represent a school of "air trout" or whatever, plus a specific "Air Goldfish Swarm" and "Air Piranha Swarm", using the official Piranha Swarm as the basis for the latter.

I'll even throw in an individual Air Goldfish and Air Piranha in the deal.


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## Cleon (Jun 17, 2011)

What are we doing about the Animal/Magical Beast question?



Cleon said:


> Funny, I thought we'd already argued about that point.
> 
> Didn't we decide to keep it an Animal because the Air Fish didn't have any supernatural powers, since their Flight is (Ex) like a Beholder's?
> 
> ...


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Better yet, we could do *three* sample swarms, a generic "Tiny Air Fish" swarm, to represent a school of "air trout" or whatever, plus a specific "Air Goldfish Swarm" and "Air Piranha Swarm", using the official Piranha Swarm as the basis for the latter.
> 
> I'll even throw in an individual Air Goldfish and Air Piranha in the deal.




<head explodes>

We should probably avoid the "air piranha" since it will utilize non-SRD stats.  It can easily be converted with the template, anyway.



Cleon said:


> What are we doing about the Animal/Magical Beast question?




I'd say Magical Beast, warts n' all.


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## Cleon (Jun 17, 2011)

Shade said:


> <head explodes>




You really must get a doctor to look at that head of yours. That can't be good for you. 



Shade said:


> We should probably avoid the "air piranha" since it will utilize non-SRD stats.  It can easily be converted with the template, anyway.




That sounds a good idea, don't want to tread on non-SRD toes too hard!

I'll stat up a Generic Tiny Swarm and an Air Goldfish Swarm.



Shade said:


> I'd say Magical Beast, warts n' all.




So, by warts do you mean updating the BAB/HD/hp et cetera or adding a bit on the templates saying those attributes *don't* change from the base creature?

In either case, I'll have to change the Type and HD/hp of the Generic versions.


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## freyar (Jun 18, 2011)

I'd actually be willing to think a little more about keeping them animals.  But I do think we should say that they keep animal HD, etc.  And the non-template versions should have some "animal SQ" to give them animal HD.  Perhaps that's too complicated, though.

Air goldfish swarm is a Diminutive swarm?


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## Cleon (Jun 18, 2011)

freyar said:


> I'd actually be willing to think a little more about keeping them animals.  But I do think we should say that they keep animal HD, etc.  And the non-template versions should have some "animal SQ" to give them animal HD.  Perhaps that's too complicated, though.




I'd much rather make them all Animals or all Magical Beasts with Beast's HD, BAB and so forth.

My preference is to keep the original Animal type, but I don't mind switching to Magical Beast if you're all in favour of it.

Hmm, isn't there a flying shark in one of WotC's 3rd edition Monster Manuals? The type of that might set a precedent.

...Ah, I was thinking of the Terlen.

That's a Magical Beast, but it's also an _*Extraplanar Flying Shark from HELL!*_ so I don't since it qualifies as a precedent-setter.



freyar said:


> Air goldfish swarm is a Diminutive swarm?




Yes, that's how I'm statting it. Haven't got very far yet...


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## GrayLinnorm (Jun 18, 2011)

The celestial and fiendish templates turn an animal into a magical beast, but they also say "Do not recalculate the creature's Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saves, or skill points if its type changes".


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## freyar (Jun 19, 2011)

GrayLinnorm said:


> The celestial and fiendish templates turn an animal into a magical beast, but they also say "Do not recalculate the creature's Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saves, or skill points if its type changes".



I'm leaning a little toward this approach, but if Shade really wants to keep it animal, I'm ok with that (as long as flight is specifically Ex).


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## Cleon (Jun 19, 2011)

GrayLinnorm said:


> The celestial and fiendish templates turn an animal into a magical beast, but they also say "Do not recalculate the creature's Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saves, or skill points if its type changes".




That's the precedence I'd use if we do have the template convert an Animal to a Magical Beast.

e.g.:
*Creating an Air Fish*
"Air fish" is an inherited template that can be added to any animal with  the Aquatic subtype (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

*Size and Type:*  The base creature's type changes to Magical Beast and it loses its Aquatic subtype. Do not recalculate the base creature's Hit Dice, hit points, base attack bonus, saves, or skill points due to this type change. An air fish retains all the  base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted below. ​It still might be simpler keeping them Animals. The 64 gold piece question is does a magical-meddling origin and the ability to fly make them outré enough to become Magical Beast?

"Magical beasts usually have supernatural or extraordinary abilities, but sometimes are merely bizarre in appearance or habits."

Hmm, I guess the ability to swim through air as if it were water is fairly bizarre (for the real world anyway, for D&D where it seems more run-of-the-mill).

Oh, the heck with it.

We might as well make them Magical Beasts with Animal stats.


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## Cleon (Jun 19, 2011)

Looking at the Homebrew, I notice the humidity dependent has a "must must" in it.

We must rid ourselves of a must, mustn't we?

I've finished the air fish swarms and will post them next.

EDIT: The board is still doing funny things with the formatting. It keeps on adding bits in *bold* or _italic_ and cuttingoutspaces, requiring me to go back through the post and fix them.


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## Cleon (Jun 19, 2011)

*Air Goldfish and Generic Air Fish Swarm*

*Air Goldfish Swarm
*Diminutive Magical Beast (Swarm)
*Hit Dice:* 3d10+3 (19 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* Swim 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 30 ft. (good)
*Armor Class:* 16 (+4 size, +2 Dex), touch 16, flat-footed 14
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +3/–
*Attack:* Swarm (1d6)
*Full Attack:* Swarm (1d6)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./0 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Distraction
*Special Qualities:*  Flight, humidity dependent, immune to weapon damage, low-light vision, scent, swarm traits
*Saves:* Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +2
*Abilities:* Str 1, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 6
*Skills:* Listen +6, Spot +6, Swim +3
*Feats:* Alertness, Toughness, Hover (B)
*Environment:* Warm aquatic
*Organization:* Solitary, flight (2-4 swarms), or school (5-20 swarms)
*Challenge Rating:* 1
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* —
*Level Adjustment:* —

*Air Goldfish* 
Diminutive Magical Beast
*Hit Dice:* ¼d10 (1 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed: *Swim 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 30 ft. (good)
*Armor Class:* 16 (+4 size, +2 Dex), touch 16, flat-footed 14
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +0/-16
*Attack:* —
*Full Attack:* —
*Space/Reach:* 1 ft./0 ft.
*Special Attacks:* —
*Special Qualities:* Flight, humidity dependent, low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +0
*Abilities: *Str 1, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 6
*Skills: *Listen +5, Spot +5, Swim +3
*Feats:* Alertness, Hover (B)
*Environment:* Any warm land
*Organization:* Solitary or shoal (2–20)
*Challenge Rating:* 1/10
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement: *—
*Level Adjustment:* —

_A miniature, carp-like fish swims in the air._

Air goldfish are one of the most numerous types of air fish, occasionally gathering in large enough numbers to form swarms. These fish are omnivorous, hearty and breed rapidly, so are easy to raise in captivity either as food animals or decorative pets. They are usually kept in birdcages or aviaries. Air goldfish may be a significant prey animal in the wild.

An air goldfish looks just like an ordinary goldfish. All air goldfish are brown when hatched, but change color when they reach adulthood. Wild air goldfish are the color of dead leaves (dull browns, yellows or reds), while most domestic varieties have been bred to become brightly colored adults (golden, orange, ruby, white, jet black or some combination of those colors). Some of these domesticated fish have escaped captivity to form colorful schools of feral fish. Air goldfish breeders have also created rare varieties with extremely peculiar shapes (bug eyes, bent tails, oversized fins, et cetera); such 'sports' are unable to survive in the wild.

A typical air goldfish is 6 to 8 inches long and weighs a few ounces.

*COMBAT*

Air goldfish are inoffensive animals. These fish will eat almost anything, but avoid moving creatures larger than themselves. In normal circumstances, air goldfish always try to flee from threats. They only attack dangerous creatures, such as adventurers, if compelled to by magic or other abnormal influences.

*Flight (Ex): *An air fish's body is naturally buoyant. This buoyancy allows it to fly and also grants it a permanent feather fall effect (as the spells) with personal range.

*Humidity Dependent (Ex):*  If an air fish spends more than 24 hours outside a humid environment, its skin grows dry and brittle. An air fish with dried-out skin must make a Constitution check each hour (DC 10, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d4 points of damage. The air fish can cure its dried-out skin by soaking in water for one minute, or by staying in a humid atmosphere for an hour.

*Skills:* An air goldfish has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

*Air Goldfish Swarm*
A starving air goldfish swarm may attack creatures as large as humans. They can bite with enough mouths to do significant damage.

*Distraction (Ex)**: *Any living creature that begins its turn with an air goldfish swarm in its space must succeed on a DC 11 Fortitude save or be nauseated for 1 round. The save DC is Constitution-based.

*Generic Air Fish Swarm
* Tiny Magical Beast (Swarm)
*Hit Dice:* 5d10+3 (30 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* Swim 40 ft. (8 squares), fly 40 ft. (good)
*Armor Class:* 14 (+2 size, +2 Dex), touch 14, flat-footed 12
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +5/–
*Attack:* Swarm (2d6)
*Full Attack:* Swarm (2d6)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./0 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Distraction
*Special Qualities:* Half damage from slashing and piercing, low-light vision, flight, humidity dependency, scent
*Saves:* Fort +4, Ref +6, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 3, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
*Skills:* Listen +5, Spot +5, Swim +4
*Feats:* Hover (B), Toughness, Weapon Finesse
*Environment:* Any warm land
*Organization:* Solitary, flight (2-4 swarms), or school (5-20 swarms)
*Challenge Rating:* 2
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* —
*Level Adjustment:* —

*COMBAT*

*Flight (Ex): *  An air fish's body is naturally buoyant. This buoyancy allows it to fly and also grants it a permanent feather fall effect (as the spells) with personal range.

*Humidity Dependent (Ex):*   If an air fish spends more than 24 hours outside a humid environment, its skin grows dry and brittle. An air fish with dried-out skin must make a Constitution check each hour (DC 10, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d4 points of damage. The air fish can cure its dried-out skin by soaking in water for one minute, or by staying in a humid atmosphere for an hour. 

*Distraction (Ex)* *: *Any living creature that begins its turn with an air fish swarm in its space must succeed on a DC 12 Fortitude save or be nauseated for 1 round. The save DC is Constitution-based. 

*Skills:*  An air fish swarm has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


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## Shade (Jun 21, 2011)

Cleon said:


> That's the precedence I'd use if we do have the template convert an Animal to a Magical Beast.
> 
> e.g.:
> *Creating an Air Fish*
> ...




One slight wrinkle.  The generic air fish aren't templated, and thus will have all the usual magical beast benefits (d10 HD, higher BAB), even if the template doesn't grant it.  Shall we just have the template make the changes as well for consistency?



Cleon said:


> Looking at the Homebrew, I notice the humidity dependent has a "must must" in it.
> 
> We must rid ourselves of a must, mustn't we?




Things are sure musty.


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## Cleon (Jun 22, 2011)

Shade said:


> One slight wrinkle.  The generic air fish aren't templated, and thus will have all the usual magical beast benefits (d10 HD, higher BAB), even if the template doesn't grant it.  Shall we just have the template make the changes as well for consistency?




How do you know they're not templated. I could easily have created assorted "generic fish" and air fished them. 

Anyhow, I have no objection to changing the template so it gets the magical beast changes:
*Size and Type:*  The base creature's type changes to Magical  Beast and it loses its Aquatic subtype. An air fish retains all the  base  creature's statistics and special abilities except as noted below. 

*Hit Dice:* An air fish's Hit Dice increase to 1d10; recalculate the base creature's hit points.

*Base Attack Bonus:* An air fish has a base attack bonus equal to its total Hit Dice (as a Magical Beast).

*Attacks:* An air fish has the same natural weapons and damage as the base creature, but its attack modifiers will increase according to its increased base attack bonus.​        I'd rather not give them darkvision, since none of the original air fish had infravision.


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2011)

Any objections?


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## Cleon (Jun 23, 2011)

Shade said:


> Any objections?




I said I had no objection.


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## freyar (Jun 24, 2011)

No, I don't mind too much either way.


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## Cleon (Jun 25, 2011)

freyar said:


> No, I don't mind too much either way.




Shall we get Shade to d10 and full BAB the sample creatures then?


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## freyar (Jun 26, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Shall we get Shade to d10 and full BAB the sample creatures then?



Yup, he'll need to do that.


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## Cleon (Jun 26, 2011)

freyar said:


> Yup, he'll need to do that.




Agreed, might as well save him some time by updating my working drafts...

*Template (includes Air Shark)*
*Generic Air Fishes*
*Generic Air Fish Swarm & Air Goldfish*

Oh, we were also talking about dropping the Dex factor from the aerial maneuverability in favour of something like:

*Speed
*An air fish gains a fly speed equal to the base creature's fastest movement rate. Its aerial maneuverability rating is average if the base creature Small-size or larger, good if it it Tiny-sized or smaller.


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## freyar (Jun 27, 2011)

Yes, that's right on the maneuverability.


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## Cleon (Jun 27, 2011)

freyar said:


> Yes, that's right on the maneuverability.




I'll leave it to Shade to decide whether to swap it out or not, since I like the Dex-dependent version.

Ppon reflection, I now prefer a narrower middling manoeuvrability range that Dex 5-16 for the Cleon Special version. Maybe 7-14 (i.e. its aerial manoeuvrability shifts up at Dex 15+ Dex and down at 6-.

That's a bit academic, since you lot prefer it purely size-dependent.


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## Shade (Jul 1, 2011)

Updated.


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## Cleon (Jul 2, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.




You've got all the Generic Air Fish to update into Magical Beasts, as per my updated Working Drafts:

*Generic Air Fishes*
*Generic Air Fish Swarm & Air Goldfish*

You've already sorted out the shark in the template's sample creature.


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## freyar (Jul 5, 2011)

That's really about it, though.


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## Cleon (Jul 5, 2011)

freyar said:


> That's really about it, though.




We've got some Specific Air Fish to do, haven't we, like the Neons?


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## Shade (Jul 6, 2011)

Updated.



Cleon said:


> We've got some Specific Air Fish to do, haven't we, like the Neons?




Is there anything special about them?  It seems the generic swarm should serve them just fine.


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## Cleon (Jul 6, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Is there anything special about them?  It seems the generic swarm should serve them just fine.




Well they have a very slow fly speed and perfect manoeuvrability, and being 2 inches long they ought to be Fine sized.

I think we could stretch a point and get away with using the Diminutive Generic Swarm for them, or maybe do them with a subentry.

What about the highly territorial and aggressive Air Catfish? That seems nastier than the Generic Tiny Air Fish we've got. It also doesn't seem to have any "non-air" equivalent, since the only D&D catfish I can find stats for are the giant varieties.

Maybe a Tiny-ised, flying, dire version of the Giant Catfish?

Then do a swarm of them.


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## freyar (Jul 6, 2011)

I think this is getting a bit out of hand.  I'd rather say that's about it!


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## Shade (Jul 6, 2011)

freyar said:


> I think this is getting a bit out of hand.  I'd rather say that's about it!




Agreed.


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## Cleon (Jul 7, 2011)

Spoilsports. 

Might be time for another few Cleon Specials, then...


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## freyar (Jul 14, 2011)

Are they done, then?


----------



## Cleon (Jul 14, 2011)

freyar said:


> Are they done, then?




Looks that way, unless we can spot any typos or stat errors.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 14, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.




Hold on, "_This fish sports a pair of wings and flies through the air_"?

Air fish don't have wings.

It should be something like "_This fish flies through the air as if it were swimming in water_".

The template should have "good if it *is* Tiny or smaller" in Speed.

There's also a "must must" left in all the Humidity Dependent SQs except for the Swarms and Air Goldfish. Dang it, I thought I'd fixed those.

EDIT: Double dang it, the individual Air Goldfish should have 1 hit point, not 2.

Updated.

*Template (includes Air Shark)*
*Generic Air Fishes*
*Generic Air Fish Swarm & Air Goldfish*


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## Cleon (Jul 14, 2011)

Triple blast it!!! The Air Goldfish Swarm's saves were all wrong.

Should be Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +2.

I've fixed the Working Draft.


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## freyar (Jul 16, 2011)

That do it, then?


----------



## Cleon (Jul 17, 2011)

freyar said:


> That do it, then?




Yes, since you ingrates didn't want to do the Air Catfish.


----------



## Shade (Jul 19, 2011)

*Doppleganger, Uran*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any Urban
FREQUENCY: Very Rare
ORGANIZATION: Clan
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: High (13-14)
TREASURE: E
ALIGNMENT: Lawful Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 3-12
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 5
THAC0: 14
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Surprise
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See Below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M
MORALE: Elite (14)
XP VALUE: 2000

The uran doppleganger is physically indistinguishable from the common doppleganger.

Combat: The principle power that separates the uran doppleganger from the common variety is its superior form of mimicry. Urans can actually imitate some of the abilities of their victims.

The uran doppleganger has a limited shapechanging ability. When an uran assumes a form, it gains all the abilities of its new form except for those abilities dependent upon intelligence, innate magical abilities, or magical resistance. Intelligence here is interpreted to mean the character's mind and personality, not just the attribute Intelligence.

Further, an uran doppleganger retains its own hit points and hit dice, including any current wounds. It suffers any natural penalties or vulnerabilities of its new form (e.g. a goblin's penalties in sunlight). However, like its common. cousin, it always keeps its own saving throws and does not get those of its mimicked form. The uran doppleganger is limited to assuming living, humanoid forms between 4' and 8' tall. It can't become a spectre or a wolf.

Specifically, an uran that assumes the form of a player character gets that PC's THAC0 bonuses for Strength, number of attacks per round (for natural attacks only), damage and damage bonuses, AC, and attribute scores excluding Intelligence. The uran does not get any of the intelligence-dependent character class abilities, since those are based upon the experience of the character and not his physical form. Abilities dependent upon intelligence include spell casting and many other character class abilities.

For example, the uran doppleganger would not get the fighter's THAC0, nor his number of attacks per round. Unlike an animal's number of attacks per round, the fighter earns his as a result of his fighting experience. The doppleganger never gains experience points from adventuring with a party. In contrast, if the uran were to imitate the form of an annis hag, it would get that creature's three attacks per round, since those are a natural attack form of the monster.

The uran doppleganger must touch a person to imitate his abilities. Otherwise, it is only able to imitate the outer form, just like the common doppleganger. This touch usually happens when the doppleganger kills his victim.
An uran can remember the form of anyone it has previously duplicated, and recall that duplicate form at will. To gain the abilities, it must imitate clothing and equipment the character was wearing at the time of the touch. For example, it could not become a duplicate of Slivkin the Thief wearing the plate mail of Raxas the Ranger. Of course, once the doppleganger has transformed, there is nothing to prevent him from changing his clothes or equipment manually.

A further extension of the uran doppleganger's superior mimicry is what it can do with clothing and equipment. The common doppleganger is restricted to changing like material into like material. Not so with the uran specie. They can change any material into any other material. Like common dopplegangers, the objects only maintain their form so long as they are within five feet of the uran. A typical defensive strategy for many uran dopplegangers is to change into the form of a warrior in plate mail.

Habitat/Society: Among the doppleganger society at large, urans are held in great esteem. They are more powerful and cunning than the common doppleganger. The urans are considered to be closer to the revered form of the ultimate shapechanger.

Ecology: The ecology of the uran doppleganger is no different from that of the common doppleganger. They are a parasitical life form that steals men's lives. Like common dopplegangers, urans prefer the comfortable existence of urban life.

All dopplegangers are genderless. They reproduce by mating with other humanoids of any race or gender. Their young remain in the humanoid form until puberty. At that time they manifest the powers of their true heritage.

Originally appeared in Polyhedron #72 (1992).


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## Cleon (Jul 21, 2011)

Shade said:


> *Doppleganger, Uran*
> 
> Originally appeared in Polyhedron #72 (1992).




So, it's a doppleganger which is slightly tougher (1 extra HD, 2-12 damage instead of 1-12), its mimicry ability includes duplicating physical ability scores, and it can create facsimiles of equipment, not just clothing (seems like a variant of _major creation_).

EDIT: Oh, and it's a bit smarter too, so +2 to the Int I guess.


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2011)

They're also lawful, and gather in greater numbers.


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## Cleon (Jul 22, 2011)

Shade said:


> They're also lawful, and gather in greater numbers.




Yes, I didn't notice that while focusing on the mechanical differences.

Still, not that much in the way of differences.

So, are we increasing the slam damage or just giving it a higher Strength to account for the slightly greater damage? I'd rather add +2 to the Strength.

Any other ability modifiers you fancy, maybe +2 to the other mental stats as well?


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## Shade (Jul 22, 2011)

I agree with all the ability boosts you proposed.


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## Cleon (Jul 24, 2011)

Shade said:


> I agree with all the ability boosts you proposed.




Shall we start a Working Draft then?


----------



## Shade (Jul 25, 2011)

Added to Homebrews.


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## Cleon (Jul 25, 2011)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.




It should have 11 more skill ranks, not 7. It has an extra Hit Dice, remember.

The original had an Armor Class 1 better than a standard Doppleganger, so shall we increase the Dex or the natural armour bonus by 1?


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## Shade (Jul 25, 2011)

Cleon said:


> It should have 11 more skill ranks, not 7. It has an extra Hit Dice, remember.




Correct.



Cleon said:


> The original had an Armor Class 1 better than a standard Doppleganger, so shall we increase the Dex or the natural armour bonus by 1?




I favor increasing Dex, as it dovetails nicely into the other ability score boosts.


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## Cleon (Jul 27, 2011)

Shade said:


> I favor increasing Dex, as it dovetails nicely into the other ability score boosts.




Suits me too. I like it a bit better than a NA boost.


----------



## Shade (Jul 27, 2011)

Updated.


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## Cleon (Jul 27, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.




So, how are we distributing the extra skill ranks.

2 ranks in Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive and Intimidate, 1 in Listen, Spot and Disguise?

Or 3 ranks in Diplomacy, 2 ranks in Bluff, Disguise, Sense Motive and Intimidate?


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## Shade (Jul 27, 2011)

Cleon said:


> So, how are we distributing the extra skill ranks.
> 
> 2 ranks in Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive and Intimidate, 1 in Listen, Spot and Disguise?
> 
> Or 3 ranks in Diplomacy, 2 ranks in Bluff, Disguise, Sense Motive and Intimidate?




I prefer the first set.


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## Cleon (Aug 1, 2011)

Shade said:


> I prefer the first set.




That's OK by me.


----------



## Shade (Aug 2, 2011)

Updated.

The standard doppelganger has Dodge and Great Fortitude for its feats.  Neither strikes me as particularly iconic for a deceptive creature.  Shall we pick something different for the Uran?   Maybe Negotiator and Persuasive?  Or Combat Expertise and Improved Feint?


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## Cleon (Aug 4, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> The standard doppelganger has Dodge and Great Fortitude for its feats.  Neither strikes me as particularly iconic for a deceptive creature.  Shall we pick something different for the Uran?   Maybe Negotiator and Persuasive?  Or Combat Expertise and Improved Feint?




My evil player-hating side wants the combat feats, my verisimilitude side favours the social feat.

Maybe split the difference and give it Combat Expertise plus one of the others?

Hmm, I think I'd rather give them both combat feats and improve their social skills with racial bonuses or bonus feats - assuming we think they need such an improvement.


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## Shade (Aug 5, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Hmm, I think I'd rather give them both combat feats and improve their social skills with racial bonuses or bonus feats - assuming we think they need such an improvement.




Let's do this.   Shall we figure out its remaining special abilities, then revisit the potential need for skill bonuses?


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## freyar (Aug 5, 2011)

To deal with the improved shape changing ability, I propose giving it Alternate Form (which grants physical ability scores and Ex abilities roughly speaking) as opposed to the standard doppleganger's Change Shape.  Have to think about the rest, though.


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## Cleon (Aug 6, 2011)

freyar said:


> To deal with the improved shape changing ability, I propose giving it Alternate Form (which grants physical ability scores and Ex abilities roughly speaking) as opposed to the standard doppleganger's Change Shape.  Have to think about the rest, though.




Sounds reasonable.

The "Mimic Equipment" trick should be fairly straightforward, just say it can mimic organic materials and ordinary stone & metals, but not alchemical compounds or rare metals such as adamantine or mithral, and the "imitations" only last a few minutes after separation from the doppleganger before disintegrating into dandruff. Oh, and I'm thinking it can only mimic ordinary workmanship, not masterwork items.


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## Shade (Aug 9, 2011)

Updated.

5 minutes for the mimic equipment before breaking down?


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## Cleon (Aug 10, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> 5 minutes for the mimic equipment before breaking down?




I'd go for longer than that.

The shortest duration of a _polymorph any object_ is 20 minutes, so I'd suggest 20 minutes for metal or stone objects, or 3 hours for organic objects such as clothing.

I'd also apply a weight limit (say, 10% or 20% the body weight of the doppleganger).


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## Shade (Aug 10, 2011)

Good ideas.   Updated.


----------



## Shade (Aug 10, 2011)

Good ideas.   Updated.


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## freyar (Aug 10, 2011)

Ok, my mind is still scattered from moving and things.  Do they need any other special abilities or qualities?


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## Cleon (Aug 12, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ok, my mind is still scattered from moving and  things.  Do they need any other special abilities or qualities?




Yes, the Uran Doppelganger is able to mimic a victim's physical abilities as well as their appearance via a touch attack.

I'd  interpret that as being able to gain Str-, Dex- and Con-based skills  and extraordinary class-based abilities of its mimicked victim, in  addition to the normal effects of Alternate Form.

I'd probably limit the ability-mimicry to the Uran Doppelganger's HD (e.g. max level+3 skill ranks, virtual or otherwise).


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## freyar (Aug 14, 2011)

Hmm, I'm not so sure about that.  The original monster seems fairly similar to alternate form in a lot of ways:



> The uran doppleganger has a limited shapechanging ability. When an uran assumes a form, it gains all the abilities of its new form except for those abilities dependent upon intelligence, innate magical abilities, or magical resistance. Intelligence here is interpreted to mean the character's mind and personality, not just the attribute Intelligence.
> 
> Further, an uran doppleganger retains its own hit points and hit dice, including any current wounds. It suffers any natural penalties or vulnerabilities of its new form (e.g. a goblin's penalties in sunlight). However, like its common. cousin, it always keeps its own saving throws and does not get those of its mimicked form. The uran doppleganger is limited to assuming living, humanoid forms between 4' and 8' tall. It can't become a spectre or a wolf.
> 
> ...


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## Cleon (Aug 15, 2011)

freyar said:


> Hmm, I'm not so sure about that.  The original monster seems fairly similar to alternate form in a lot of ways:




Well it depends on how we interpret its "touch duplication" giving it all the target's abilities _*except for*_ Int-based and magical abilities.

If we just made it standard alternate form, then the main difference between its non-touch duplication is it gains its target's physical ability scores.

I _suppose_ that's all right, but I quite fancied it duplicating things like back-stabbing or skills, since it would make it a much more convincing imitation.


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## freyar (Aug 15, 2011)

Well, it's not just Int-based, but Int-based "class abilities," which seems to cover most anything that comes from training, right? It also doesn't gain BAB or iterative attacks.


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## Shade (Aug 16, 2011)

I'm perfectly satisfied with simply alternate form.   For mimicking class features, etc., someone (not me) could easily develop a prestige class similar to the illithid savant to do that very thing.


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## Cleon (Aug 16, 2011)

freyar said:


> Well, it's not just Int-based, but Int-based "class abilities," which seems to cover most anything that comes from training, right? It also doesn't gain BAB or iterative attacks.




Yes, on reading the original a bit more closely I realized it didn't support copying class-based (Ex) abilities, but I did like the idea.

Oh well, might as well just make it Alternative Form then, although I'm thinking we should allow them to use their original physical ability score if they're superior.


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## freyar (Aug 17, 2011)

Perhaps it can have both Alternate Form (the "touch" transformation) and Change Shape (the regular one).


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## Cleon (Aug 17, 2011)

freyar said:


> Perhaps it can have both Alternate Form (the "touch" transformation) and Change Shape (the regular one).




I thought that's what we'd decided on already.


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## freyar (Aug 19, 2011)

Oh, I thought we were just doing Alternate Form.  Anyway, let's just go with those 2; if it wants to keep it's (potentially) better physical abilities, it can use Change Shape.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 20, 2011)

freyar said:


> Oh, I thought we were just doing Alternate Form.  Anyway, let's just go with those 2; if it wants to keep it's (potentially) better physical abilities, it can use Change Shape.




Fine by me.

We should add Giants and Monstrous Humanoids to the allowed forms, since it mentions they can imitate an annis hag.

How's this:

* Alternate Form (Su):* A uran doppelganger can assume the form of any Small, Medium or Large Giant, Humanoid or Monstrous Humanoid.

*Change Shape (Su):* A uran doppleganger can assume the shape of any Small, Medium or Large Giant, Humanoid or Monstrous Humanoid it touches. Urans using Change Shape can also mimic any equipment their target is carrying (see Mimic Equipment, below). If used in combat, this special ability requires a successful touch attack which does not provoke an attack of opportunity. An uran doppleganger can remember the shape of anyone it has previously duplicated, and recall that duplicate shape at will.


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## Shade (Aug 23, 2011)

Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 23, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.




You've got a broken link AND it points to this thread rather than the relevant *Homebrew post.*

So, can we advance to Skills?


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## freyar (Aug 24, 2011)

You've got it backwards, right?  Doesn't it have to touch the victim to assume the physical ability scores (alternate form)?


----------



## Cleon (Aug 28, 2011)

freyar said:


> You've got it backwards, right?  Doesn't it have to touch the victim to assume the physical ability scores (alternate form)?




Oh blast, you're right. I got them swapped round.

Easy enough to fix...

*Change Shape (Su):* A uran doppelganger can assume the shape of any Small, Medium or Large Giant, Humanoid or Monstrous Humanoid.

*Alternate Form (Su):* A uran doppleganger can assume the form of any Small, Medium or Large  Giant, Humanoid or Monstrous Humanoid it touches. Urans using Alternate Form can also mimic any equipment their target is carrying (see Mimic  Equipment, below). If used in combat, this special ability requires a  successful touch attack which does not provoke an attack of opportunity.  An uran doppleganger can remember the form of anyone it has previously  duplicated, and recall that alternate form at will.


----------



## freyar (Aug 29, 2011)

Looks right to me.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 30, 2011)

freyar said:


> Looks right to me.




Good!

Shall we move on to refiguring the Skills?


----------



## freyar (Sep 1, 2011)

Yes!  But you'll have to suggest how you'd like to change them (other than adjusting for HD).


----------



## Cleon (Sep 2, 2011)

freyar said:


> Yes!  But you'll have to suggest how you'd like to change them (other than adjusting for HD).




Not just HD, we'd better check the ability adjustments too.

I'd distribute the extra ranks fairly evenly. If it has 11 extra ranks, I'd put 2 each in Bluff, Disguise, Diplomacy and Intimidate plus 1 each in Listen, Sense Motive and Spot.


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## freyar (Sep 2, 2011)

Sounds fine to me, and the 11 ranks are right, too.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 3, 2011)

freyar said:


> Sounds fine to me, and the 11 ranks are right, too.




I just wanted to check the SRD Doppelganger had its ranks correctly figured before adding 11 SPs to them. Some of the SRD monsters have minor stat errors.

...

The SRD Doppelganger's OK, so my proposal would make it:

*Skills #1:* Bluff +13*, Diplomacy +8, Disguise +12* (+14 acting), Intimidate +6, Listen +8, Sense Motive +8, Spot +8.

It has 5 ranks in Sense Motive, so it gets an extra +2 synergy on Diplomacy.

Hmm, speaking of Synergy, Bluff gives a +2 synergy with Sense Motive. That'd be a handy skill for a doppelganger, so how about shifting a point from Diplomacy or Bluff into Sense Motive so it's a trained skill.

So, Sense Motive +5 and either Bluff +12* or Diplomacy +7:

*Skills #2:* Bluff +13*, Diplomacy +7, Disguise +12* (+14 acting), Intimidate +6, Listen +8, Sense Motive +8, Sleight of Hand +5, Spot +8

*Skills #3:* Bluff +12*, Diplomacy +8, Disguise +12* (+14 acting), Intimidate +6, Listen +8, Sense Motive +8, Sleight of Hand +5, Spot +8

I'm not decided which of the above I prefer, but am leaning towards #3 with the Bluff +12.


----------



## freyar (Sep 5, 2011)

Either #2 or #3 works for me.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 6, 2011)

freyar said:


> Either #2 or #3 works for me.




In that case we might as well make it #3.

*Skills:* Bluff +12*, Diplomacy +8, Disguise +12* (+14 acting), Intimidate +6, Listen +8, Sense Motive +8, Sleight of Hand +5, Spot +8


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## Shade (Sep 7, 2011)

Updated.

I figure the added abilities are worth at least another CR and LA, possibly +2 LA.

CR: 4?
LA:  +5 or +6?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 7, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> I figure the added abilities are worth at least another CR and LA, possibly +2 LA.




Well, we should consider that Challenge Rating is a measure of how nasty they are in a fight. A lot of its power will come from social finagling.

That said, its ability to Alternate Form into a powerful humanoid, monstrous humanoid or giant and use their extraordinary special attacks is potentially very powerful. An Uran Doppelganger in the shape of, say, an Annis Hag would be quite nasty.

Of course, it's very dependent on what forms it has in its "vocabulary". If it's only copied halflings and goblins it's not going to be so hot in a melee.

It is probably worth a higher LA - a PC version of this will be going out of their way to find as many creatures with potent abilities to copy as it can.


----------



## freyar (Sep 8, 2011)

The social finagling could help set it up pretty well in a fight, though.  CR 4 is probably ok.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 10, 2011)

freyar said:


> The social finagling could help set it up pretty well in a fight, though.  CR 4 is probably ok.




Well the Alternate Form alone is likely enough for CR 4, so I'm OK with that.

Not 100% decided what to do about the LA, but 2 more than a regular Doppelganger ought to do.


----------



## Shade (Sep 12, 2011)

Updated.

Feel free to work up some tactics, and to expand on flavor text if desired.


----------



## freyar (Sep 12, 2011)

Nothing springing to mind here.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 13, 2011)

freyar said:


> Nothing springing to mind here.




How's this...

Uran doppelganger are a stronger and more cunning variety of doppelganger. Their powers of mimicry are superior to a normal doppleganger, allowing them to mimic the physical abilities and mundane equipment of another creature, not just its appearance. Once an uran mimics a creature's form it can assume their form whenever it desires.

An uran doppelganger's habits are no different from other doppelgangers. They prefer the comfortable existence of urban life, where they can steal victims' identities with less chance of discovery.   Common doppelgangers hold urans in great esteem, considering them closer to the revered form of the  ultimate shapechanger.

In its natural form a uran doppelganger is identical to a common doppelganger. It stands about 5½ feet tall and weighs about 150 pounds.

COMBAT
An uran doppelganger usually fights like whatever creature it is currently mimicking. In its natural form, it strikes with its powerful fists. A hard pressed uran doppelganger will assume whatever form in its repertoire is most suitable for fight or flight, usually either a heavily armed and armoured humanoid warrior or a fleet-footed youth. If the uran has survived an encounter with a powerful monster, such as an ogre, annis hag or gargoyle, it is likely to have learned that monster's form to use in combat.


----------



## Shade (Sep 13, 2011)

Looks good!  Updated.

Normal doppelgangers don't list their languages in the flavor text, although it is clear from the "As Characters" section that they all speak Common.

Shall we borrow another automatic language from the list for the uran?



			
				Original Flavor doppelganger said:
			
		

> Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Auran, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, Giant, Terran.




Do we need an "As Characters" section for the urans?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 14, 2011)

Shade said:


> Looks good!  Updated.
> 
> Normal doppelgangers don't list their languages in the flavor text, although it is clear from the "As Characters" section that they all speak Common.
> 
> ...




Yes, I was wondering about the language bit. Copying the SRD Doppelganger's is fine.

Since we've given them a Level Adjustment I suppose they'd better have Urans As Characters.


----------



## Shade (Sep 15, 2011)

How about this?

Uran doppelgangers speak Common.  Most also speak an additional humanoid language or two (see bonus languages in Urans as Characters, below).


----------



## Cleon (Sep 15, 2011)

Shade said:


> How about this?
> 
> Uran doppelgangers speak Common.  Most also speak an additional humanoid language or two (see bonus languages in Urans as Characters, below).




The bit in brackets seems over-wordy. How about.

Uran doppelgangers speak Common. Most speak several humanoid languages as bonus languages (see Urans as Characters, below).


----------



## Shade (Sep 15, 2011)

Updated.

Anything left?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Anything left?




It looks good.

The only suggesting I could come up with is introducing hyphens or brackets into the last line of the tactics to make it read easier, e.g. "If the uran has survived an encounter with a powerful monster (such as  an ogre, annis hag or gargoyle), it is likely to have learned that  monster's form to use in combat."


----------



## freyar (Sep 19, 2011)

Looks good as is or with additional parentheses, as far as I am concerned.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 20, 2011)

freyar said:


> Looks good as is or with additional parentheses, as far as I am concerned.




Might as well humo(u)r me with parenthesis, then.


----------



## Shade (Sep 20, 2011)

Updated to be more parethentically pleasing.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 21, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated to be more parethentically pleasing.




After those pleasing parentheses I propose this project has been perfected.


----------



## Shade (Sep 21, 2011)

We're down to the last three, and they're all humanoids barely worthy of conversion.   Anyway, here's the most interesting of the three...


While the equine Houyhnhnms exemplify what humans might aspire to be, the Yahoos show the worst that humans can become. These nasty creatures foreshadow what may ultimately become of Gulliver when he loses his mind.

*Yahoos *(1-10): AC 7; MV 10, 16 in trees; HD 3; THACO 17; #AT 1; Dmg 1-3; SA thrown filth; SZ L; ML Unreliable (2-4); Int Highly (13-14); AL CN (E); EXP 65.

Yahoos are humanoids whose ancestors may once have been human, but became genetically debased through inbreeding. The heads, chests, lower legs, and feet of both sexes are covered with thick hair. This hair is a mixed pattern of brown, red, black, and yellow. The Yahoo's skin is a brown buff, while nails are long, thick, pointed, and always dirty. Males wear short beards and long ridges of hair down the center of their backs. Both sexes can climb trees as nimbly as a squirrel and are competent swimmers. They sleep in caves, trees, or in crude kennels that more intelligent creatures (in this case the Houyhnhnms) construct for them. Most of the time, Houyhnhnms keep their Yahoos tied by the neck by thin, flexible, but very tough braided twigs or branches. These leashes are fastened to a beam to keep the nasty Yahoos from making mischief.

When an unknown creature (such as a player character) enters a Yahoo tribe's home territory, 1-6 Yahoos may approach the invaders out of curiosity or to steal a few shiny objects. They attack only if first attacked. Whenever possible, Yahoos prefer to fight from a distance. For weapons, they throw rocks, branches and even their own filth at opponents. If the invaders possess members of the equine family, are able to shape change into horse-like creatures via magic, or are in the company of one or more Houyhnhnms, the Yahoos do not voluntarily approach the party.

Yahoos are willing slaves, being far too concerned for short-lived pleasures to organize any resistance against their Houyhnhnms masters. The player characters may attempt to lead the Yahoos in a revolt against their masters, but Yahoo tribes lack enough reason to follow any type of plan, even when they attack other tribes of Yahoos. Consequently, Yahoos might attack the player characters or their horses instead of the Houyhnhnms.

To Swift, Yahoos are what humanity could have become if humans had fallen beyond all hope of redemption. These crude and brutish humanoids live in tribes of 20 to 120 (2d6 x 10) members in extended families. One of every four Yahoos are infants or juveniles who pose no threat to the player characters. Adult females give birth to one to four children every two years. The other three-fourths are adult males and females. Yahoos have no written or spoken language (at least none that Gulliver could recognize).

These slow-thinking anthropoids are used by the Houyhnhnms as beasts of burden. Four Yahoos can pull one or two Houyhnhnms on a sledge-like vehicle. Yahoos obey the commands of Houyhnhnms as long as they are under observation by their masters. If they are not tied up or being watched, however, these mischievous creatures steal milk, devour their master's cats and commit many other acts of vandalism.

During daylight hours, these subhuman scavengers eat nuts, fruits, and carrion. They will supplement their diet by catching weasels, rats, and fish. A tribe may roam several miles to find food. The yahoos always return to their sleeping caves, trees or kennels before sunset. These creatures amuse themselves by eating certain types of intoxicating roots that drive them wild. They are very unclean and often wallow or sleep in the mud.

Originally appeared in Polyhedron #106 (1995).


----------



## Cleon (Sep 21, 2011)

Shade said:


> We're down to the last three, and they're all humanoids barely worthy of conversion.   Anyway, here's the most interesting of the three...
> 
> While the equine Houyhnhnms exemplify what humans might aspire to be, the Yahoos show the worst that humans can become. These nasty creatures foreshadow what may ultimately become of Gulliver when he loses his mind.
> 
> *Yahoos *(1-10): AC 7; MV 10, 16 in trees; HD 3; THACO 17; #AT 1;  Dmg 1-3; SA thrown filth; SZ L; ML Unreliable (2-4); Int Highly (13-14);  AL CN (E); EXP 65.




Highly Intelligent? What on earth!

I've read Gulliver's Travels, and that seems... inappropriate. Much rather give them a penalty to Int (and probably their other mental stats).

So, a 3 Hit Dice Humanoid with a Climb speed. Maybe average a human and a chimpanzee for the ability scores? The "throw filth" could crib off the Troglodytes' stench, I suppose.


----------



## freyar (Sep 22, 2011)

The High Int doesn't make sense with the text of the monster either, considering that they're supposed to be degenerate.  I'd agree with penalties to all mental stats.


----------



## Shade (Sep 22, 2011)

freyar said:


> The High Int doesn't make sense with the text of the monster either, considering that they're supposed to be degenerate.  I'd agree with penalties to all mental stats.




Thirded.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 24, 2011)

Shade said:


> Thirded.




Int 6, Wis 7, Cha 8?


----------



## Shade (Sep 26, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Int 6, Wis 7, Cha 8?




That looks fine, but...



Cleon said:


> So, a 3 Hit Dice Humanoid with a Climb speed. Maybe average a human and a chimpanzee for the ability scores? The "throw filth" could crib off the Troglodytes' stench, I suppose.




Size is "L", so shouldn't the ability scores be a bit higher?  Maybe between a bugbear and an ape?  Or at least the same as a bugbear?

Bugbear:  Str 15, Dex 12, Con 13
Ape:  Str 21, Dex 15, Con 14


----------



## Cleon (Sep 28, 2011)

Shade said:


> That looks fine, but...
> 
> Size is "L", so shouldn't the ability scores be a bit higher?  Maybe between a bugbear and an ape?  Or at least the same as a bugbear?
> 
> ...




Large size? I don't remember anything in the book to suggest they're any different in size from a non-bestial human. I'd strongly favour making them Medium.

They shouldn't be that strong. _Gullivers Travels_ said the Houyhnhnm could easily overpower them, which is why they did not run amok. We made those Horses Large Str 16 creatures, so the Yahoos should be significantly weaker than that.

P.S. I spelled Houyhnhnm from memory and got it right. I've obviously been dealing with weirdly spelled creatures too much...


----------



## freyar (Oct 2, 2011)

Flavor doesn't really match up with Large, either.  I could see a somewhat bigger Medium, but that's it, really.  And that may be all that was meant.  

I also agree that the ability scores or Str anyway, should be no higher than 15.


----------



## Shade (Oct 3, 2011)

Medium and Str less than 16 works for me.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 4, 2011)

Shade said:


> Medium and Str less than 16 works for me.




So, a similar Strength to a Half-Orc? (+2 racial bonus, for an standard array, Str 15 for a 1st level Warrior with a nonelite array.)


----------



## freyar (Oct 6, 2011)

Sounds good.


----------



## Shade (Oct 6, 2011)

I agree.


----------



## freyar (Oct 7, 2011)

Ok, give them some sort of rock throwing ability or a racial bonus to thrown weapons?


----------



## Cleon (Oct 7, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ok, give them some sort of rock throwing ability or a racial bonus to thrown weapons?




Don't much care for a SA, since these are caricatures of humans. I'd rather put it down to practice, which suggests Weapon Focus (thrown rock).


----------



## Shade (Oct 7, 2011)

Added to Homebrews.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 8, 2011)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.




If we're giving them a +2 racial bonus to Strength they should be Str 13 with a standard array, Str 15 with a non-elite array (assuming the 13 is in Str).

the BAB of a 3 HD Humanoid is +2, not +1.

There should be a "and rock +X ranged (1d3+Y)" in the attack lines.

Oh, and I don't much like the 40 ft. climb speed, but I suppose that follows the original AD&D stats.


----------



## freyar (Oct 10, 2011)

How about a racial bonus to thrown weapons, like halflings?  We need to make them at least a tiny bit interesting.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 10, 2011)

freyar said:


> How about a racial bonus to thrown weapons, like halflings?  We need to make them at least a tiny bit interesting.




I can go along with that.


----------



## Shade (Oct 11, 2011)

Cleon said:


> If we're giving them a +2 racial bonus to Strength they should be Str 13 with a standard array, Str 15 with a non-elite array (assuming the 13 is in Str).




Since we didn't use class levels, we don't need an array.  We simply pick the desired ability scores.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 11, 2011)

Shade said:


> Since we didn't use class levels, we don't need an array.  We simply pick the desired ability scores.




Well it depends on whether we're doing a "Yahoo as Characters" section.

Considering Yahoos are violent, uncouth savages with an obsessive need to collect gems, they seem a natural fit for adventuring. 

Anyhow, I'm preferring Strength 13 for them, like a bog standard (10,10,10,11,11,11) half orc would probably get.


----------



## Shade (Oct 11, 2011)

I'll go for Str 13, but don't really want an "As Characters" section for what are essentially horses.  Maybe a LA of (+x cohort).


----------



## Cleon (Oct 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'll go for Str 13, but don't really want an "As Characters" section for what are essentially horses.  Maybe a LA of (+x cohort).




So are we agreed on Str 13. Oh, and I like the cohort idea for them.


----------



## Shade (Oct 12, 2011)

Updated.

Thoughts on the <ahem> filth flinging?

Give 'em scent to make 'em more bestial?


----------



## Cleon (Oct 13, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Thoughts on the <ahem> filth flinging?




I believe I suggested something based on the Troglodyte.

Something like a grenade-like missile, which sickens for, say, 1d4 rounds on a direct hit, or 1 round with a "5 ft. splash", with a Dex save for half duration (direct hit) or no effect (splash).



Shade said:


> Give 'em scent to make 'em more bestial?




I don't think they need it, but if both you and freyar want scent I won't stand in your way.


----------



## freyar (Oct 14, 2011)

Don't really feel like they need scent.

I like Cleon's suggestion for the flung filth, too.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 14, 2011)

freyar said:


> Don't really feel like they need scent.




Okay, so it looks like we're dropping scent.



freyar said:


> I like Cleon's suggestion for the flung filth, too.




Something like this?
*Flung Filth (Ex):* A yahoo can fling a clump of its own filth as a splash weapon. Treat this as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet. Any living creature (except yahoos and troglodytes) hit by the filth are sickened for 1d4 rounds (Reflex save for half duration), every creature within 5 feet of the point where the filth hits are sickened for 1 round by from the splash (Reflex save negates).

Hmm, I'm wondering whether a Fortitude save wouldn't make more sense, since that's what most sickened attacks use. We should probably add the 24 hour immunity and the poison save bonus too.​  Revising...
*Flung Filth (Ex):* A yahoo can fling a clump of its own filth as a  splash weapon. Treat this as a ranged touch attack with a range  increment of 10 feet. Any living creature (except yahoos and  troglodytes) hit by the filth are sickened for 1d4 rounds (DC X Fortitude save  for half duration), every creature within 5 feet of the point where the  filth hits are sickened for 1 round by from the splash (DC X Fortitude save  negates). The save DC is Constitution-based.

Creatures that successfully save cannot be affected by the same troglodyte’s stench for 24 hours. A delay poison or neutralize poison spell removes the effect from the sickened creature. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws.​  Alternatively, we could allow the target to use either their Ref or Fort save.*Flung Filth (Ex):* A yahoo can fling a clump of its own filth as a  splash weapon. Treat this as a ranged touch attack with a range  increment of 10 feet. Any living creature (except yahoos and  troglodytes) hit by the filth are sickened for 1d4 rounds (save  for half duration), every creature within 5 feet of the point where the  filth hits are sickened for 1 round by from the splash (save  negates). The target can make either a Reflex or Fortitude save, whichever is higher. The save DC is Constitution-based.​
Creatures that successfully  save cannot be affected by the same troglodyte’s stench for 24 hours. A  delay poison or neutralize poison spell removes the effect from the  sickened creature. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and  creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their  saving throws.​  Hmm, I think I'm leaning towards the Fortitude save approach. The target's Dex is incorporated into their touch AC, after all.


----------



## freyar (Oct 18, 2011)

That's right, Dex is in the touch attack, so make it just a Fort save, which represents how well you can resist being sick.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 19, 2011)

freyar said:


> That's right, Dex is in the touch attack, so make it just a Fort save, which represents how well you can resist being sick.




Anything else you fancy adding?


----------



## Shade (Oct 19, 2011)

freyar said:


> That's right, Dex is in the touch attack, so make it just a Fort save, which represents how well you can resist being sick.




Agreed.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 19, 2011)

Shade said:


> Agreed.




So are you alright with it as-is.

Although now I'm wondering whether I prefer "Fling Filth (Ex)" or "Flung Filth (Ex)".

Hmm, after due consideration I still lean slightly towards Flung.


----------



## freyar (Oct 20, 2011)

I'd lean toward "Fling" since the verb feels more like an ability or an attack.  But it's no big deal.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 21, 2011)

freyar said:


> I'd lean toward "Fling" since the verb feels more like an ability or an attack.  But it's no big deal.




Same here.

Shall we let Shade use whichever of the two he prefers?


----------



## Shade (Oct 21, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Same here.
> 
> Shall we let Shade use whichever of the two he prefers?




Well, since you asked...

Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 22, 2011)

Shade said:


> Well, since you asked...
> 
> Updated.




Skills and feats next, I guess.

2 ranks apiece in Climb, Listen and Spot?

Not sure about the feats.

Improved Grapple and Reckless Offense?


----------



## Shade (Oct 24, 2011)

Skills appeal.

Reckless Offense is a good fit.   Improved Grapple requires Improved Unarmed Strike, and I don't really think they need it.  How about Power Attack, or Point Blank Shot for flinging filth?


----------



## Cleon (Oct 25, 2011)

Shade said:


> Skills appeal.
> 
> Reckless Offense is a good fit.   Improved Grapple requires Improved Unarmed Strike, and I don't really think they need it.  How about Power Attack, or Point Blank Shot for flinging filth?




Dammit, I keep on forgetting the pesky Improved Unarmed Strike prereq. The reason I fancy Improved Grapple is, unless my memory of _Gulliver's Travels_ plays me awry, the Yahoo's spent a lot of time punching and wrastling with each other. Indeed, I vaguely recall them attacking Semuel at some stage.

Hmm, that suggests giving them Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, and Improved Grapple and Reckless Offense as regular feats.

Anyhow, I'm not _that_ fond of Power Attack of Point Blank Shot for them. Don't recall them being particularly powerful combatants - the Houyhnhnm could easily defeat them in a fight.

Maybe not give them two combat feats, but Reckless Offense plus a skill-boosting feat - maybe Acrobatic, Agile or Athletic?


----------



## Shade (Oct 25, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Dammit, I keep on forgetting the pesky Improved Unarmed Strike prereq. The reason I fancy Improved Grapple is, unless my memory of _Gulliver's Travels_ plays me awry, the Yahoo's spent a lot of time punching and wrastling with each other. Indeed, I vaguely recall them attacking Semuel at some stage.
> 
> Hmm, that suggests giving them Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, and Improved Grapple and Reckless Offense as regular feats.




If that's the case, I could see Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple.  I'd rather not give 'em a bonus feat.  It meets the prereqs for both, so let's just go with those two feats, OK?


----------



## freyar (Oct 25, 2011)

That works for me.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 27, 2011)

Shade said:


> If that's the case, I could see Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple.  I'd rather not give 'em a bonus feat.  It meets the prereqs for both, so let's just go with those two feats, OK?




I can go for that.


----------



## Shade (Oct 27, 2011)

That being the case, shall we replace the slam attacks with unarmed strikes?


----------



## Cleon (Oct 27, 2011)

Shade said:


> That being the case, shall we replace the slam attacks with unarmed strikes?




That was part of the idea, yes.

It's just a question of changing the name, the damage should stay the same.


----------



## Shade (Oct 28, 2011)

Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 29, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.




That seems to be about it for their abilities.

Environment: Any forest or plains?
Organization: Solitary, gang (2-10) or mob (10-50 plus 100% noncombatants)?
Challenge Rating: 1?


----------



## Shade (Oct 31, 2011)

I'd lean toward CR 2.  They are fairly close to a bugbear.

The rest looks good.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 31, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'd lean toward CR 2.  They are fairly close to a bugbear.




Yes, I was split between a strong 1 and a weakish 2.

They're pretty close to the SRD Bugbear in saves and melee damage, but weaker on AC and ranged damage. I suppose the Fling Filth Special Attack helps balance that out.

So, no major objections to CR 2.


----------



## freyar (Oct 31, 2011)

That's settled then.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 1, 2011)

freyar said:


> That's settled then.




Anything else, or is it just flavour left?


----------



## Shade (Nov 2, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Anything else, or is it just flavour left?




Advancement and Level Adjustment.   I can't see "by character class" for them, and I'm not sure if they should actually improve by HD.  I'm leaning toward "-" for Advancement, and a LA of +1 (cohort).


----------



## Cleon (Nov 2, 2011)

Shade said:


> Advancement and Level Adjustment.   I can't see "by character class" for them, and I'm not sure if they should actually improve by HD.  I'm leaning toward "-" for Advancement, and a LA of +1 (cohort).




I'd rather they have some kind of Advancement. The SRD Troll is no smarter than a Yahoo, and they advance by character class. Even the SRD Ape has HD Advancement and Yahoo's are significantly more "human" than one of them.

I'm leaning towards advancement by character class (favoured class Barbarian) but _might_ be persuaded around to something like 4-6 HD (Medium) or thereabouts if you don't like that.


----------



## Shade (Nov 2, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I'd rather they have some kind of Advancement. The SRD Troll is no smarter than a Yahoo, and they advance by character class. Even the SRD Ape has HD Advancement and Yahoo's are significantly more "human" than one of them.
> 
> I'm leaning towards advancement by character class (favoured class Barbarian) but _might_ be persuaded around to something like 4-6 HD (Medium) or thereabouts if you don't like that.




I suppose if we have to have one, I'd lean toward HD advancement, since these are essentially "horses" for the horse-people.   I'll leave it up to freyar to break the deadlock.

If we do go the "by character class" route, we'll need a traditional LA, not cohort.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 3, 2011)

Shade said:


> I suppose if we have to have one, I'd lean toward HD advancement, since these are essentially "horses" for the horse-people.   I'll leave it up to freyar to break the deadlock.
> 
> If we do go the "by character class" route, we'll need a traditional LA, not cohort.




Yes, HD advancement plus a cohort LA would make sense.

4-6 HD (Medium)?

+1 LA (cohort)? If they're similar to a Bugbear in nastiness, their Level Adjustment presumably is similar, too.


----------



## Shade (Nov 3, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Yes, HD advancement plus a cohort LA would make sense.
> 
> 4-6 HD (Medium)?
> 
> +1 LA (cohort)? If they're similar to a Bugbear in nastiness, their Level Adjustment presumably is similar, too.




This works for me.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 3, 2011)

Shade said:


> This works for me.




Might as well update it with that.


----------



## Shade (Nov 7, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Might as well update it with that.




Updated.   I think we just need flavor.  I've never read the novel, so I might not be the best person for the job.

<BEWARE OF FALLING HINTS!>


----------



## Cleon (Nov 7, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.   I think we just need flavor.  I've never read the novel, so I might not be the best person for the job.
> 
> <BEWARE OF FALLING HINTS!>




I could have proposed some flavour, but I've just been stunned by a hint just landing on my head.


----------



## Shade (Nov 7, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I could have proposed some flavour, but I've just been stunned by a hint just landing on my head.




<Casts _cure moderate head trauma _on Cleon>


----------



## Cleon (Nov 8, 2011)

Shade said:


> <Casts _cure moderate head trauma _on Cleon>




Thanks Shade, that's better.

Anyhow, Gulliver's Travels is now in the public domain so you can easily view the text on many websites such as Project Gutenberg (see here).

It's been a while since I've read it, but I can see strong evidence for a couple of modifications to the current stats.

First, it looks like they could have a racial bonus to Jump checks, since:



			
				Gulliver's Travels said:
			
		

> They climbed high trees as nimbly as a squirrel, for they had strong extended claws before and behind, terminating in sharp points, and hooked.  They would often spring, and bound, and leap, with prodigious agility.




There are several mentions of them fighting with claws, so we may want to consider changing their natural attack from unarmed strikes to claws. However, these "claws" don't seem very lethal:



			
				Gulliver's Travels said:
			
		

> and then would ensue such a battle as I had described, with terrible wounds made by their claws on both sides, although they seldom were able to kill one another, for want of such convenient instruments of death as we had invented




Also, we should give them a racial bonus to swim checks and possible the Hold Breath SQ:



			
				Gulliver's Travels said:
			
		

> They swim from their infancy like frogs, and are able to continue long under water, where they often take fish, which the females carry home to their young.




Incidentally, there seems to be nothing in _Gulliver's Travels_ about them throwing missiles, whether stones, sticks, or filth. There are multiple mentions of their odiousness, but if anything it's more akin to a Troglodyte's Stink. Their repellent stench is "somewhat between a weasel and a fox, but much more disagreeable".

There's quite a lot of information regarding the appearance and habits of the Yahoo that could be converted into flavour text. I'm not sure how much to include.

I suppose we could just base the flavour text on the Polyhedron version, since that is what we're converting.


----------



## Shade (Nov 8, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I suppose we could just base the flavour text on the Polyhedron version, since that is what we're converting.




If we want to keep the current abilities the same, I suppose so.   If we want to pursue the noted changes above, we can work out flavor from the novel.

Preferences?


----------



## Cleon (Nov 8, 2011)

Shade said:


> If we want to keep the current abilities the same, I suppose so.   If we want to pursue the noted changes above, we can work out flavor from the novel.
> 
> Preferences?




How about taking the "lazy alteration" option and giving them a racial bonus to Jump and Swim, but leave the rest unchanged?

The _Polyhedron_ version prefers ranged attacks, so I'm happy sticking to that.

Besides, I like the "Fling Filth" special attack.

 We could add a "clawed yahoo" variant as an underbar if we want something closer to the book. Which is described as having a nasty bite, by the way.


----------



## Shade (Nov 9, 2011)

Cleon said:


> How about taking the "lazy alteration" option and giving them a racial bonus to Jump and Swim, but leave the rest unchanged?




Probably Climb as well.  +2 to all of 'em?



Cleon said:


> The _Polyhedron_ version prefers ranged attacks, so I'm happy sticking to that.
> 
> Besides, I like the "Fling Filth" special attack.




Agreed.  Me too.



Cleon said:


> We could add a "clawed yahoo" variant as an underbar if we want something closer to the book. Which is described as having a nasty bite, by the way.




We've only got two more critters left for this thread, so we can take all the time we'd like.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 9, 2011)

Shade said:


> Probably Climb as well.  +2 to all of 'em?




I was thinking a +4 racial bonus. I imagine they should be about as good in the water as Brown and Black Bears, who get +4 racial bonus to Swim.

As for the Jump, I didn't want it a different bonus to Swim and a +4 means they'd get the same modifier as if their 40 ft. Climb speed was their ground speed, which seems to make sense.

No need to give them a racial bonus to Climb, they've already got +8 from their Climb speed.



Shade said:


> We've only got two more critters left for this thread, so we can take all the time we'd like.




Good, we'll leave the scratching & biting varient for later.


----------



## Shade (Nov 9, 2011)

Oops. I forgot they already have a climb speed.

Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 10, 2011)

Shade said:


> Oops. I forgot they already have a climb speed.




Yes, I presume that's why you forgot the +8 racial bonus in their skill line too.

They should have Climb +11, not +3.

Hmm, maybe we should take the 2 ranks out of Climb and put them somewhere else. Probably Listen and Spot, to make it:

Skills: Climb +9, Jump +5, Listen +1, Spot +1, Swim +5



Shade said:


> Updated.




Time for flavour text then!

_A naked manlike creature. Its head, chest and lower legs are covered in a thick pelt of hair, the rest of its body is bare mud-brown skin. The creature stinks like a rancid weasel and its entire body is stained with filth. Hands and feet sport pointed, claw-like nails._

These disgusting creatures may once have been humans or another humanoid race, but are now little more than beasts. They have all the worse aspects of humanity that their limited wits can support - cowardice, greed, lust, sloth and mischief are almost instinctive to a yahoo.

The houyhnhnm keep "tamed" yahoos as beasts of burden (or possible  slaves), and other intelligent beings may use tame yahoos in this way. Wild yahoos congregate in gang or mobs led by the most treacherous and vicious male, who keeps a lickspittle as his second-in-command. Whenever the mob changes its leader, usually by deceit or violence, the entire tribe heaps ordure on the old leader's lickspittle. A group of wild yahoos frequently wars with neighboring yahoos or engages in a civil war among themselves. Such conflicts rarely result in deaths, mostly due to the yahoos' cowardice and lack of weapons.

All yahoos are violently fond of shiny stones, and will go to great  effort to dig them from the ground or steal them from another yahoo. A  yahoo will keep its hoard of stones buried in some secret spot. Fields rich in such stones are the site of the yahoos' most frequent and fiercest battles.

Yahoos will always flee from or obey a houyhnhnm, depending on the  circumstances. Even the wildest yahoo will not attack a houyhnhnm or  other horse-like creature. A yahoo will see other humanoids as  another yahoo, and will attack, bully, grovel towards this new yahoo, depending  to the circumstances. The _really_ unlucky may have a yahoo of the opposite sex lust after them. A yahoo is likely to see a soft-skinned and clawless humanoid (like an adventurer) as a weakling ripe for tormenting. Yahoos hate humanoids who show a close relationship with the houyhnhmm, any often assault such humanoids the moment they leave the protection of a houyhnhnm. It is possibly they view such a person as being a houyhnhnm "lickspittle".

The houyhnhnm use their yahoos them to carry loads or drag sleds for transporting sick or elderly houyhnhnm. A tamed yahoo always obeys a houyhnhnm's orders, but will work petty mischief if unsupervised - stealing food or milk, devouring their master's pets, vandalizing property and so forth.  Yahoos are too short-sighted, fractious and indolent to organize any  resistance against their masters, but require constant supervision to produce any useful work. Houyhnhnm often tie leashes made from vines or braided twigs to the neck of their yahoos, unsupervised yahoos are tied to posts or beams to keep them from working mischief.

Yahoos will eat almost anything. Most of their diet is roots and carrion, supplemented by fruit, nuts, and small animals. They like the flesh of fish, rats and weasels. Yahoos particularly enjoy the effect of intoxicating plants (a certain root is highly sought after), and eat them at every opportunity.

Most wild yahoos sleep in shallow dens dug in sloping earth, but they may also sleep in trees and caves. Domestic yahoos sleep in kennels constructed by their masters.

A yahoo is the same height and weight as a human. Male yahoos have  matted beards and a ridge of hair down their spines, females have long  hair but lack the hairy ridge. Yahoos develop more quickly than humans, becoming full-grown in their early teens. Yahoos are very unclean and often wallow or sleep in mud.

Yahoos do not have a language, but can be taught to obey very simple commands.

COMBAT
Whenever possible, yahoos prefer to fight from a distance. They throw rocks, branches and even their own filth at opponents. Extremely craven, yahoos will flee from even slight setbacks.


----------



## Shade (Nov 10, 2011)

Looks great!   Updated.

Ready for the clawed variant?


----------



## Cleon (Nov 11, 2011)

Shade said:


> Looks great!   Updated.
> 
> Ready for the clawed variant?




How's this:

*Clawed Yahoo*
In Jonathan Swift's satirical book _Gulliver's Travels_ the yahoos fought mainly with claws, augmented by their sharp teeth. They were not adept at thrown weapons as described above. Indeed, there is no mention of them using any weapons at all aside from biting and scratching. Such a yahoo uses the following statistics, with any missing statistic being the same as the yahoo detailed above.

*Attack:* Claw +4 melee (1d3+1)
*Full Attack:* 2 claws +4 melee (1d3+1) and bite +1 melee (1d4)
*Special Attacks:* Improved grab, stench
*Feats:* Multiattack, Weapon Focus (claw)

*COMBAT*
Instead of using thrown weapons like other yahoos, clawed yahoos prefer to attack opponents by outnumbering and ambushing them. They are just as cowardly as other yahoos, taking to their heels if they face any significant resistance.

*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, a clawed yahoo must hit an opponent of up to Large size with a claw attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold. Clawed yahoos have a +4 racial bonus to grapple checks.

*Stench (Ex):* A clawed yahoo is covered in filth whose smell nearly every form of animal life finds offensive. All living creatures (except yahoos and troglodytes) within 30 feet of the yahoo must succeed on a DC 11 Fortitude save or be sickened for 1d4 rounds. The save DC is Constitution-based. Creatures that successfully save cannot be affected by the same yahoo's stench for 24 hours. A _delay poison _or _neutralize poison _spell removes the effect from the sickened creature. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws.


----------



## Shade (Nov 11, 2011)

Perfect!  Updated.  

Ready for the next one?


----------



## Cleon (Nov 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> Perfect!  Updated.




Hmm, the "biting and scratching" is starting to look wrong to me, this works better:

*Clawed Yahoo*
In Jonathan Swift's satirical book _Gulliver's Travels _the yahoos  fought mainly with claws, augmented by their sharp teeth. They were not  adept at thrown weapons as described above. Indeed, there is no mention  of them using any weapons at all. Such a  yahoo uses the following statistics, with any missing statistic being  the same as the yahoo detailed above.

Attack: Claw +4 melee (1d3+1)
Full Attack: 2 claws +4 melee (1d3+1) and bite +1 melee (1d4)
Special Attacks: Improved grab, stench
Feats: Multiattack, Weapon Focus (claw)

COMBAT
Clawed yahoos fight by biting and scratching. Instead of using thrown weapons like other yahoos, clawed yahoos prefer  to attack opponents by outnumbering and ambushing them. They are just as  cowardly as other yahoos, taking to their heels if they face any  significant resistance.



Shade said:


> Ready for the next one?




Apart from the above tweak I'm happy to move on.


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## Shade (Nov 15, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Apart from the above tweak I'm happy to move on.




Tweaked.

I'm not sure the following warrants a conversion...


The city of Laputa is a marvel of magical engineering: a flying city. It is populated by a race of humans who value philosophy and technology. The Laputans use their intellectual and technological superiority to control other countries.

*Laputans:* AC 10; MV 12; HD 1d6 hp; THACO 20; #AT 1; Dmg by weapon; SA dropping stones, gun-powder weapons; SZ M; ML Average (8-10); INT Average-genius; AL LN(G); XP 175.

Laputans wear 18th Century European garments adorned with representations of suns, moons, and stars, interwoven with those of fiddles, flutes, harps, trumpets, guitars, harpsichords and many other musical instruments, some found only on their flying island. Laputan philosophers (all of them happen to be men) surround themselves with globes and spheres, mathematical instruments, pens, bottles of ink, blank paper, telescopes, microscopes, scrolls, and books. PCs will discover that even Laputan food is shaped to resemble musical instruments or abstract geometric forms.

Laputans (satirically representative of the English) use their flying island to keep the inhabitants of Balnibarbi (Ireland) in servitude. When a Balnibarbi city refuses to pay tribute to the philosophers, the Laputan monarchy orders the flying island to hover above the rebels' land to block sunshine, snow, or rain from falling on their farms and gardens. If the revolt continues, the Laputans bombard the city with hundreds of rocks dropped from their aerial vantage point. If the city still refuses to pay tribute, Laputans could use the flying island itself as a colossal hammer to smash the rebel city, but this has never been done for fear of breaking their island home apart.
Laputan military technology equals that of Earth's Renaissance, including the arquebus and cannons. The entire Laputan army is made up of lower-class men and women, as Laputan philosophers never take the time to study mundane concerns such as warfare.

Swift used the airborne Laputan philosophers, as well as Balnibarbi Projectors, to satirize over-valuing reason and abstract studies. Obsessed with abstract reason, these impracticable philosophers do not invent anything practical, but only squander resources that could be used to help the people they rule over. Upper-class Laputan men are extremely obsessed with abstract mathematics, the celestial music of the spheres, as well as astronomical and judicial astrology to the exclusion of everything else. These men spend most of their lives in intellectual stupors, unaware of anyone or anything around them. When lost in thought, these archetypical absent-minded professors tilt their heads to one side, while one eye points inward and the other straight up. These upper class men must be brought back to reality by lower-class pages who use tools called Flappers: inflated bladders, filled with small pebbles, that are fixed to the ends of staffs. These pages very gently strike their masters on the mouth if they need to speak, on the ear if they need to hear, or in the eyes if they need to see where they are walking.

Laputan philosophers are so entirely devoted to abstract problems that the quality of practical skills, from tailoring garments to constructing homes, is absolutely wretched. According to Gulliver, these people are very clumsy, awkward, and unhandy-unable to do anything with skill except for abstract mathematics and music. They lack imagination, fancy, and invention.

The insanity of Laputan philosophers has spread to the island of Balnibarbi, where common sense has been replaced by a group of commonwealth-men calling themselves the "Academy of Projectors," satirizing the Royal Society of London. These are schools filled with hundreds of madcap crackpots who are obsessed with unproductive experiments designed to reverse natural systems. Projectors attempt to extract sunshine from cucumbers, to reduce human excrement to its original food, turn ice into gunpowder, to construct buildings by starting with the roof and finishing with the foundation, to mix colors by only feeling and smelling the paint, and to make many other strange attempts to "improve the human condition." With the exception of their political scientists, projectors are uniformly insane. The Laputan flying island is an exactly circular disk, with a diameter of 7,837 yards enclosing 10,000 acres. The island is three hundred yards thick. Rain water is collected in four large basins. The island's motion is controlled from a chasm about 50 yards in diameter. This is where a huge lodestone is suspended inside a hollow cylinder. Manipulating this loadstone can make the flying island travel either horizontally or vertically. However, the island cannot fly above the height of four miles and cannot wander more than 18 miles from the island of Balnibarbi. Human sages think this civilization was more practical in ages past when the flying island was originally cut out of the bedrock. This must have been true, as the island is far too practical to have been built by the modern inhabitants. Player characters might find much useful information while exploring long forgotten libraries.

Laputans have a life span of 60-80 years. They consume the same type of foods that were common to 18th Century Europeans. Laputans have few natural enemies. The closest enemies the Laputans might have are flying creatures such as evil dragons who see their island as something interesting to plunder. But the Laputans' use of the arquebus and cannon have kept flying creatures at a safe distance, so far.

Originally appeared in Polyhedron #106 (1995).


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## Cleon (Nov 15, 2011)

Shade said:


> Tweaked.
> 
> I'm not sure the following warrants a conversion...




Laputans don't merit a conversion, they're just humans with a peculiar society.


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## Shade (Nov 16, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Laputans don't merit a conversion, they're just humans with a peculiar society.




In that case, we're down to the last one for this thread...


The Male of the Species
by Frank Mentzer

Editor's note: Last issue we published the description of "Amazons" by Gary Gygax. But although the men associated with these warrior women were mentioned briefly, their statistics and lifestyle were never fully described. To correct that oversight, we now present

*Men, Emezon*

FREQUENCY: Extremely rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 8
MOVE: 9"
HIT DICE: 1 (d6)
% IN LAIR: 99%
TREASURE TYPE: Special
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon (see below)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Cleric spells
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Wail
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Low
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: M (5'-6' tall)
PSIONICS: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: Variable

Emezons (also called scullions) are the famous but elusive male amazons (q.v. POLYHEDRON Newszine #22, p8). Their ability scores are average in all respects.

Emezons normally do not wear armor, except for a leather apron (AC 7) at mealtimes, which is adorned with tribal runes forming the phrase "Common Gadit". At such times, an emezon is usually armed with a heavy metal pot or skillet, which may be used as if a mace. Or rare occasions, emezons may be found with their amazon mistresses, acting as guards. They are then similarly armored and armed.

If attacked in lair, an emezon will often start an unearthly wailing, which causes each creature within 60' to make a saving throw vs. spells. Those failing will immediately try to comfort and protect the poor thing.

Rumors indicate that all emezons are spellcasters, as they are prone to chanting words of various types while preparing meals. Detailed observation indicates that while a few are actually clerics, reaching a maximum of 5th level of experience, others are low-level chefs (see "Zee Chef", on the preceding pages for details), preoccupied with dweomers involving the creation, purification, and flavoring of food and drink.

Emezons are exceptionally skilled at child raising, interior decorating, and hair styling, and are thus treasured and protected by amazons at all times. The most skilled emezon in a tribe is usually awarded a small sculpture (of an otter or a seal), as a token of the amazons' approval. This item may be passed on to a new winner each month.


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## Cleon (Nov 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> In that case, we're down to the last one for this thread...
> 
> 
> The Male of the Species
> ...




I'm going to make a wild guess and say this was an April issue of Polyhedron. 

Well these do have a special ability, so I suppose they're not just ordinary humans.

Although if we convert these, won't we have to do the Amazons it mentions too?


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## Shade (Nov 16, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I'm going to make a wild guess and say this was an April issue of Polyhedron.




My thoughts exactly.  



Cleon said:


> Well these do have a special ability, so I suppose they're not just ordinary humans.




Indeed.



Cleon said:


> Although if we convert these, won't we have to do the Amazons it mentions too?




Not necessarily.  We could just state that Amazons are simply human females.


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## Cleon (Nov 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> My thoughts exactly.
> 
> Indeed.




Thought so!

Which issue number are these from, anyhow.



Shade said:


> Not necessarily.  We could just state that Amazons are simply human females.




But... that would be boring. Besides, it calls them "the male of the species" which could imply they aren't ordinary humans.

It'd help if we had the Amazons' stats.

Pardon me while I scatter a few hints underfoot...


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## Shade (Nov 16, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Pardon me while I scatter a few hints underfoot...





It may help to shout "hawk!" in a large canyon...


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## Cleon (Nov 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> It may help to shout "hawk!" in a large canyon...




Sadly, the large canyon in my living room is undergoing refurbishment.


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## GrayLinnorm (Nov 16, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Thought so!
> 
> Which issue number are these from, anyhow.




23.  I have that issue.  I just noticed that it says the emezons' abilities are "average in all respects", but they have low intelligence.

The Polyhedron Amazon is also in _Monstrous Compedium Annual 4_, which says they first appeared in #22.


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## Cleon (Nov 17, 2011)

GrayLinnorm said:


> 23.  I have that issue.  I just noticed that it says the emezons' abilities are "average in all respects", but they have low intelligence.
> 
> The Polyhedron Amazon is also in _Monstrous Compedium Annual 4_, which says they first appeared in #22.




Thanks!

If it's in MCA4 then it'll be 2nd edition. Poly #22 is still in 1st edition, so are there any noteworthy changes between the two?


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## Cleon (Nov 17, 2011)

I've checked the MCA4 version of the Amazon and they don't look like regular humans to me.

They've got a couple of special abilities - immunity to surprise and 1d6 damage unarmed strikes - and their Strength and Constitution are above human averages, even if they all have the "elite array".

Furthermore, there's a sub-bar about _*Demihuman Amazons*_, with notes on elf, dwarf, gnome and halfling amazons.

They look like a template to me...


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## freyar (Nov 18, 2011)

Should emezons be templates then, too?  Which one first?


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## Cleon (Nov 18, 2011)

freyar said:


> Should emezons be templates then, too?  Which one first?




I'd do the Amazons first, since the Emezons postdate them.

It'd be useful to see their _Polyhedron #22_ incarnation, if anyone has it.


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## freyar (Nov 23, 2011)

Anyone have the Amazons at all?


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## Cleon (Nov 23, 2011)

freyar said:


> Anyone have the Amazons at all?




I'd have thought my "I've checked the MCA4 version of the Amazon" would have given that away...


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## freyar (Nov 28, 2011)

Ah, right.  But you seemed to have missed the big hint I dropped about getting their stats up.


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## Shade (Nov 28, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ah, right.  But you seemed to have missed the big hint I dropped about getting their stats up.




He's been hit by so many hints that he no longer gains xps from them (and thus ignores them).


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## freyar (Nov 30, 2011)

Do you have the amazons to post, in that case?


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## Shade (Nov 30, 2011)

freyar said:


> Do you have the amazons to post, in that case?




I'm afraid not.


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## Cleon (Nov 30, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'm afraid not.




Wipe away your Emoticon tears, and behold!

*Human, Amazon*
*Climate/Terrain:* Any
*Frequency:* Very rare
*Organization:* Clan
*Activity Cycle:* Day
*Diet:* Omnivore
*Intelligence:* Low to Genius (5–18)
*Treasure:* M, Q (R, S, X)
*Alignment:* Neutral
*No. Appearing:* 5–30
*Armor Class:* By type
*Movement:* 15
*Hit Dice:* 4 or more (d10)
*THAC0:* 19
*No. of Attacks:* 2
*Damage/Attack:* 1d8 (weapon) or 1d6 (unarmed)
*Special Attacks:* High Strength and Dexterity (possible), specialization
*Special Defenses:* Constitution (possible)
*Magic Resistance:* Nil
*Size:* M (6’–7’ tall)
*Morale:* Elite (13–14)
*XP Value:* Variable

These barbarian warrior women are, in effect, heroines all. They are exceptionally tall human women. They tend to be fine-looking, but are hard-eyed (and hard-hearted) too. The exact territory from which they come indicates what sort of weapons they will use and their skills: horsemanship, small water craft, and so on.

They speak the common tongue, and some clans may have a language of their own as well.

*Combat:* Amazons will not be surprised except by invisible attackers. Amazon warriors are barbarian fighters who typically wear light chain mail (though this varies) and carry the weapons typical of barbarian cultures; spears are most common, also a variety of swords, axes, and bows. Young amazons are often skilled with the sling.

Amazons have Strength ratings between 15 and 18 (18/00 is possible), and Dexterity and Constitution ratings between 13 and 18. If unarmed, an amazon can use blows, kicks, nails, teeth, and so on to inflict 1d6 points of damage per round.

*Habitat/Society:* An amazon party of 10 or more will have an additional leader of 5th- or 6th-level, and a witch-doctor of 2nd level. A party of 20 or more will have a captain of 7th or 8th level. Whenever 30 or more are encountered, there is a 30% chance they are one of 2 to 5 raiding parties in the area. In this case, their “lair” will be a ship or a pack train or wagon train as applicable. The other groups will always be within 5 miles of the party initially encountered.

In their “lair,” amazons will have a full 30 barbarian warrior women of 4th level, four leaders of 5th- to 6th-level, one leader of 7th to 8th level, and a Queen—a barbarian of 9th to 12th level. A male witch-doctor of at least 4th level wizard ability will be present. There are twice as many (normal) males as female warriors, about half of them equal to men-at-arms, and armed and armored as their amazon mistresses. The others will have the care of 2 to 12 children. The queen will have four male guards of 2nd- or 3rd-level, and two female guards of 5th- to 6th-level.

Individual amazons may be encountered from time to time serving in various mercenary forces. These may retain the weapons of their original clan or adopt unusual weapons, armor, or fighting styles to which they have been exposed.

Amazons of less than 4th level are no older than the young adult age (15–19). Those failing to meet the harsh standards expected of amazon warriors by the age of 20 are banished and not allowed to rejoin the clan except under the most extraordinary circumstances. On the other hand, a worthy female warrior of 4th level or higher might be adopted into an amazon clan following a period of initiation, training, and questing. The procedure varies from clan to clan, but the initiate must master the clan’s skills and weapons.

Amazons of the plains and flatlands employ war chariots. These are light, two-horse chariots with a driver and a warrior, having a movement rate of 18 and a supply of javelins and war arrows. Amazon chariot riders are armed with powerful composite short bows, which they can fire from a moving chariot as if standing stationary on firm ground.

Amazons of the steppes are skilled horse archers. Their mobile communities are based on great wagons that can be circled into a fortified camp. These amazons are reputed to have almost supernatural skill in horse handling.

Island-dwelling amazons build light, maneuverable galleys, which they use for trading and occasional piracy. All amazons from this culture can swim and have exceptional small boat skills. Their base will be a walled city with a large marble temple to their goddess; the witch-doctor is replaced by a priest-magician of equivalent skill. Island amazons are exceptionally skilled with the long bow.

*Ecology:* Larger Amazonian societies tend to be reclusive or nomadic. Often considered barbarians, regardless of their level of culture, they are viewed with distrust and suspicion by others. In return, they are wary and suspicious of outsiders. Far too often, other warrior cultures have assumed that a band of female warriors would be easy looting. All, thus far, have discovered how costly a mistake that can be.

—_From _POLYHEDRON_ Newszine #22_​
*Demihuman Amazons*
Elf amazons are nomadic woods-dwellers using the spear and long bow. Unicorn cavalry is possible. Dwarf amazons use axes and war hammers, and ride giant boars. Gnome amazons use the throwing axe and short sword. Though lacking mounts, they have exceptional survival skills and can track like rangers. Halfling amazons use the javelin and sling. They are famous for their snares and their remarkable endurance.
_
From MCA4 - Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume 4 (1994)._


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## Shade (Nov 30, 2011)

Wonder Women!


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## Cleon (Dec 1, 2011)

Shade said:


> Wonder Women!




Well, Wonder Woman is an Amazon, so what did you expect?

So, are you onboard with my proposal to make this a Template applicable to female humanoids?


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2011)

Cleon said:


> So, are you onboard with my proposal to make this a Template applicable to female humanoids?




I think so.  GIRL POWER!


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## Cleon (Dec 1, 2011)

Shade said:


> I think so.  GIRL POWER!




I'll rough out a Working Draft, then.


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## Cleon (Dec 1, 2011)

*Amazon Working Draft*

*Amazon (Template)*
_A tall female warrior._

 Amazons are formidable warrior women who live in small, reclusive tribes  with their children and subservient menfolk. There are amazon tribes of  many humanoid races - human amazons are the most common, but the sages  have recorded dwarf, elf, gnome or even halfling amazon tribes. In  theory, any humanoid female could become an amazon, even a "monstrous"  race like a bugbear or kobold.  Only females are allowed to follow the  ways of the amazon, but a worthy enough female warrior may be adopted  into a clan following a period of initiation, training, and questing.

The basic unit of amazon society is the clan. Their culture is fiercely martial, with the most powerful warrior ruling as tribal queen. Each clan has fighting skills and tactics well suited to whichever environment they live in - horse archers for steppe amazons, longbow armed canoeists for island amazons, et cetera.

Amazons are exceptionally tall examples of their race. They tend to be  handsome but hard-eyed, and may seem callous or cold-hearted_.
_
The majority of amazons use the elite ability array. Those that do not  usually fail to meet the harsh standards of amazon society and are  banished. Such exiles are not allowed to rejoin their clan except under  the most extraordinary circumstances.

*Creating an Amazon*
"Amazon" is a template that can be added to any humanoid female (referred to hereafter as the "base creature").

An amazon uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

*Size and Type:* Same as base creature.

*Hit Dice:* Same as base creature.

*Speed:* Same as base creature.

*Armor Class:* Same as base creature.

*Attack:* An amazon retains all the attacks of the base creature and also gains an unarmed strike special attack (see below). The amazon retains any weapons or natural weapons possessed by the base creature. An amazon  fighting without weapons uses its unarmed strike special attack or its primary natural weapon (if it has any).

Amazons are highly skilled in arms, they are proficient in light armour, shields, and all simple and martial weapons.

*Full Attack:* An amazon fighting without weapons uses either its unarmed strike special attack (see below) or its natural weapons (if it has any). If armed with a weapon, it usually uses the weapon as its primary attack.

*Damage:* An amazon's unarmed strike does damage as given in the table below, according to the amazon's size.

*Size*
Fine 1
Diminutive 1d2
Tiny 1d3
Small 1d4
Medium 1d6
Large 1d8
Huge 2d6
Gargantuan 3d6
Colossal 4d6

*Special Attacks:* An amazon retains all the special attacks of the base creature and gains the unarmed strike special attack described below.

_ *Martial Training (Ex):*_ Amazons are talented fighters. An amazon with levels in humanoid gains   a base attack bonus equal to her humanoid Hit Dice. An amazon  qualifies for  feats as if she were a fighter of a level equal to her  Base Attack Bonus. Amazons are proficient with  all simple and martial  weapons and with medium armor, light armor and  all shields (including  tower shields). An amazon gains Improved Unarmed Strike and Weapon Focus (in 1 weapon) as bonus feats.

*Unarmed Strike (Ex):* An amazon has an unarmed strike ability equal to a 1st level monk. This stacks with unarmed strike from class levels in monk or other sources.

*Special Qualities:* An amazon retains all the special qualities of the base creature and gains those described below.

*Uncanny Dodge (Ex):* An amazon can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.

If an amazon gains uncanny dodge as a class ability she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead (see the Rogue class in the Players' Handbook). 

*Abilities:* Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +4, Dex +2, Con +2, Cha +2.

*Skills:* Same as the base creature. Amazons gain a +4 racial bonus to Spot checks.

*Feats:* Amazons gain Improved Unarmed Strike and Weapon Focus (in 1 weapon) as bonus feats. The Weapon Focus is in one of the traditional weapons used by the amazon's society - usually spear, longsword, battleax, or composite shortbow.

*Environment:* Any, usually same as base creature.
*Organization:* Solitary, party (10-20 plus 1 leader of 5th-6th level, and 1 emezon  cleric, adept or wizard of 1st-2nd level), expedition (20-50 plus 1-4 leaders  of 5th-6th level, 1 captain of 7th-8th level, and 1-4 emezon clerics,  adepts or wizards of 1st-2nd level) or clan (30-100 plus 4-8 leaders of  5th-6th level, 1 captain of 7th-8th level, 1 queen of 9th-12th level,  30-100 male 1st level warriors, 60-200 noncombatants, 2-5 emezon  clerics, adepts or wizards of 1st-2nd level, and 1 emezon cleric or  wizard of 2nd-5th level)

*Challenge Rating:* Same as the base creature + 1.
*Treasure:* Standard.
*Alignment:* Same as the base creature.
*Advancement:* By character class.
*Level Adjustment:* Same as the base creature +2.

*Sample Amazon*
The following sample creature has gained the amazon template.

*Amazon Heroine*
*4th level human fighter
*Medium Humanoid
*Hit Dice:* 4d10+12 (34 hp)
*Initiative:* +3
*Speed:* 20 ft. (4 squares); base speed 30 ft.
*Armor Class:* 18 (+3 Dex, +5 breastplate), touch 13, flat-footed 15
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +4/+8
*Attack:* Masterwork spear +8 melee (1d8+8/×3) or cold iron battleaxe +7 melee (1d8+4/×3) or silver shortsword +6 melee (1d6+4/19-20) or unarmed strike +7 melee (1d6+4) or masterwork spear +8 ranged (1d8+4/×3) or masterwork composite longbow (+4 Str bonus) +8 ranged (1d8+4/×3)
*Full Attack:* Masterwork spear +8 melee (1d8+8/×3) or cold iron battleaxe +7 melee (1d8+4/×3) or silver shortsword +7 melee (1d6+4/19-20) or unarmed strike +7 melee  (1d6+4) or masterwork spear +8 ranged (1d8+4/×3) or masterwork composite longbow (+4 Str bonus) +8 ranged (1d8+4/×3)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Martial training, unarmed strike
*Special Qualities:* Uncanny dodge
*Saves:* Fort +7, Ref +4, Will +2
*Abilities:* Str 18, Dex 17, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 12
*Skills:* 14 SPs
*Feats:* Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Improved Unarmed Strike (B), Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (spear) (B), Weapon Specialization (spear)
*Environment:* Any land
*Organization:* Solitary, party (10-20 plus 1 leader of 5th-6th level, and 1 emezon  cleric, adept or wizard of 2nd-4th level), party (20-50 plus 1-4 leaders  of 5th-6th level, 1 captain of 7th-8th level, and 1-4 emezon clerics,  adepts or wizards of 2nd-4th level) or clan (30-100 plus 4-8 leaders of  5th-6th level, 1 captain of 7th-8th level, 1 queen of 9th-12th level,  30-100 emezon 1st level warriors, 60-200 noncombatants, 2-5 emezon  clerics, adepts or wizards of 2nd-4th level, and 1 emezon cleric or  wizard of 4th-8th level).
*Challenge Rating:* 5
*Treasure:* Standard
*Alignment:* Usually neutral
*Advancement:* +2
*Level Adjustment:* —

 This amazon is an elite human female 4th level fighter with the following ability scores before racial and template adjustments: Str 13, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 10. Her 4th level ability advancement was placed in Strength.

*Equipment:* _+1 breastplate_, _+1 cloak of resistance_, masterwork composite longbow (+4 Str bonus) with 40 arrows, masterwork spear, cold iron battleaxe, silver shortsword, _sunrod_, _potion of lesser restoration, __potion of enlarge person_, _potion of shield of faith +2_, _oil of magic weapon_, 2 _potions of cure light wound_, 45 gold pieces.

_Originally appeared in Polyhedron Newszine #22 (Jan/Feb 1985)_


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## freyar (Dec 2, 2011)

I'd increase Str to +4 honestly (or maybe more), since they're always Str 15+.  I'd also give them a racial Spot bonus or Imp Init*.  And how about Martial Training that we've used before?*


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2011)

freyar said:


> I'd increase Str to +4 honestly (or maybe more), since they're always Str 15+.  I'd also give them a racial Spot bonus or Imp Init*.  And how about Martial Training that we've used before?*



*

I like all of that.*


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## Cleon (Dec 3, 2011)

freyar said:


> I'd increase Str to +4 honestly (or maybe more), since they're always Str 15+.  I'd also give them a racial Spot bonus or Imp Init*.  And how about Martial Training that we've used before?*



*

I toyed with the idea of +4 Strength, but then I thought the "stock" amazon would have an elite ability array (15,14,13,12,10,8) and would probably put one of her three highest scores in Strength, for a base Strength of 13-15. A +2 racial bonus would be enough to put that at the Str 15 minimum.

Well, I'm OK with a +4. Then a non-elite amazon (13,12,11,10,9,8) will get Str 15+ as standard.

Come to think of it, we should give them +2 Dexterity as well.



freyar said:



			I'd also give them a racial Spot bonus or  Imp Init.  And how about Martial Training that we've used  before?

Click to expand...




I'm not seeing anything in the MCA4 version that says they have keener sight or faster reflexes than a normal human(oid).

Could you give a reason for giving them those bonuses. Apart from making them more like Xena, of course.



freyar said:



			And how about Martial Training that we've used  before?
		
Click to expand...



It'll need some work from the basic version. How's this:

 Martial Training (Ex): Amazons are talented fighters. An amazon with levels in humanoid gains a base attack bonus equal to her humanoid Hit Dice, and qualifies for feats as if she were a fighter of a level equal to her humanoid Hit Dice plus any fighter levels she may possess. Amazons are proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with medium armor, light armor and all shields (including tower shields). An amazon's intense training gives her Improved Unarmed Strike and Weapon Specialization (1 weapon) as bonus feats.*


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## Shade (Dec 5, 2011)

I'm in favor of the Dex boost as well.  Martial Training looks good, although I'm not sure I like Weapon Specialization as a bonus feat.  It almost seems too good.


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## Cleon (Dec 5, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'm in favor of the Dex boost as well.  Martial Training looks good, although I'm not sure I like Weapon Specialization as a bonus feat.  It almost seems too good.




Well, the original text says Amazons have Weapon Specialization.

Then again, their MCA4 incarnation all seem to be 4th+ level fighters who would be eligible for Weapon Specialization anyway.

I suppose we could change it so the amazon needs to have at least 4 Hit Dice to qualify for the bonus feat?

I'm also wondering about changing the fighter feat qualification to "An amazon qualifies for feats as if she were a fighter of a level equal to her Base Attack Bonus" rather than the current inelegant fighter + humanoid version.

e.g.:

 *Martial Training (Ex):* Amazons are talented fighters. An amazon with levels in humanoid gains  a base attack bonus equal to her humanoid Hit Dice. An amazon qualifies for  feats as if she were a fighter of a level equal to her Base Attack Bonus. Amazons are proficient with  all simple and martial weapons and with medium armor, light armor and  all shields (including tower shields). An amazon gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, if she has a base attack bonus of +4 or higher she also gains Weapon Specialization (in 1 weapon) as a bonus feat.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 5, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'm in favor of the Dex boost as well.  Martial Training looks good, although I'm not sure I like Weapon Specialization as a bonus feat.  It almost seems too good.




Oh, I've updated the *Working Draft* with +4 Str and +2 Dex bonuses and my latest version of the Martial Training.


----------



## Shade (Dec 6, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Well, the original text says Amazons have Weapon Specialization.
> 
> Then again, their MCA4 incarnation all seem to be 4th+ level fighters who would be eligible for Weapon Specialization anyway.
> 
> I suppose we could change it so the amazon needs to have at least 4 Hit Dice to qualify for the bonus feat?




I'd prefer to just leave it for the 4th-level amazons to take.  They'll still qualify for it faster than any other non-single classed fighters, which is benefit enough methinks.



Cleon said:


> I'm also wondering about changing the fighter feat qualification to "An amazon qualifies for feats as if she were a fighter of a level equal to her Base Attack Bonus" rather than the current inelegant fighter + humanoid version.




Good idea!


----------



## Shade (Dec 6, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Well, the original text says Amazons have Weapon Specialization.
> 
> Then again, their MCA4 incarnation all seem to be 4th+ level fighters who would be eligible for Weapon Specialization anyway.
> 
> I suppose we could change it so the amazon needs to have at least 4 Hit Dice to qualify for the bonus feat?




I'd prefer to just leave it for the 4th-level amazons to take.  They'll still qualify for it faster than any other non-single classed fighters, which is benefit enough methinks.



Cleon said:


> I'm also wondering about changing the fighter feat qualification to "An amazon qualifies for feats as if she were a fighter of a level equal to her Base Attack Bonus" rather than the current inelegant fighter + humanoid version.




Good idea!


----------



## Cleon (Dec 6, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'd prefer to just leave it for the 4th-level amazons to take.  They'll still qualify for it faster than any other non-single classed fighters, which is benefit enough methinks.
> 
> Good idea!




I'm seeing double!

Anyhow, I'm still fancying Weapon Specialisation as a special ability bonus feat, since the original has it listed as a "special attack".

Anyone else care to chip in an opinion?


----------



## freyar (Dec 7, 2011)

It's not clear from the original stat block what "specialization" means.  Unless there's some standard meaning in 2e, I'd think it might mean the ability to handle horses or boats, which could be a skill bonus.  I'm a bit undecided on Weapon Spec.

The reason I want the Spot bonus or Imp Init* is that they aren't surprised, and surprise is handled through Spot checks and initiative.  I know you're trying to do that with Uncanny Dodge, but that's not quite the same thing (for example, it works against invisible critters).  I'm open to having both, but I definitely want to have something that keeps them from being surprised.*


----------



## Cleon (Dec 8, 2011)

freyar said:


> It's not clear from the original stat block what "specialization" means.  Unless there's some standard meaning in 2e, I'd think it might mean the ability to handle horses or boats, which could be a skill bonus.  I'm a bit undecided on Weapon Spec.




It's listed as a special attack, so it's unlikely to mean they're good at boating.

Fighters in post-Unearthed Arcana AD&D could get Weapon Specialisation, which not only have them to hit and damage boosts but increased their number of attacks.

A high level fighter could get Double Specialisation, for even better combat boosts.

I'll note that the Amazon has her No. of Attacks listed as 2. That's higher than a standard 4th level fighter, so might indicate Weapon Specialisation.

Although I'm not against the idea of making them buy Specialisation with one of their feats as normal.



freyar said:


> The reason I want the Spot bonus or Imp Init* is that they aren't surprised, and surprise is handled through Spot checks and initiative.  I know you're trying to do that with Uncanny Dodge, but that's not quite the same thing (for example, it works against invisible critters).  I'm open to having both, but I definitely want to have something that keeps them from being surprised.*



*

I'd much rather give them an ability that prevents them being flat-footed, hence preventing penalties for being surprises. It seems to fit the original description better than making them eagle-eyed or viper-quick.

We could rework it so the "Not-So Uncanny Dodge" doesn't work against creatures the Amazon is incapable of sensing.*


----------



## freyar (Dec 9, 2011)

Weapon Specialization the feat doesn't grant extra attacks or an attack bonus, though, just a damage bonus.  From what you're saying, we could just as easily make it Weapon Focus* or even some sort of quickness/alacrity ability.

As for Uncanny Dodge vs an init or Spot bonus, there's really nothing in the flavor/description either way.  Actually, I'd say that the disclaimer about invisibility makes it more likely that it should be related to Spot, which is how we usually deal with monsters that don't surprise easily.  Like I say, I'm fine with Uncanny Dodge, too.  But I also really don't want to make up an ever-so-slightly different version of Uncanny Dodge either.*


----------



## Shade (Dec 9, 2011)

freyar said:


> Weapon Specialization the feat doesn't grant extra attacks or an attack bonus, though, just a damage bonus.  From what you're saying, we could just as easily make it Weapon Focus* or even some sort of quickness/alacrity ability.*



*

I'd most prefer just letting them qualify for it easier, but could accept Weapon Focus as a bonus feat easier.  I'm not fond of alacrity for 'em.



freyar said:



			As for Uncanny Dodge vs an init or Spot bonus, there's really nothing in the flavor/description either way.  Actually, I'd say that the disclaimer about invisibility makes it more likely that it should be related to Spot, which is how we usually deal with monsters that don't surprise easily.  Like I say, I'm fine with Uncanny Dodge, too.  But I also really don't want to make up an ever-so-slightly different version of Uncanny Dodge either.
		
Click to expand...



Ditto here.  I'm fine with uncanny dodge and/or Spot + Improved Initiative, but don't want to create a new ability.*


----------



## freyar (Dec 9, 2011)

I'd prefer Weapon Focus as a bonus feat.  It makes sense to me.  We can list the choice of weapons.

Let's see if Uncanny Dodge and a +4 Spot bonus will go over ok with Cleon.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 10, 2011)

freyar said:


> Weapon Specialization the feat doesn't grant extra attacks or an attack bonus, though, just a damage bonus.  From what you're saying, we could just as easily make it Weapon Focus* or even some sort of quickness/alacrity ability.*



*

It did in AD&D. 



freyar said:



			As for Uncanny Dodge vs an init or Spot bonus, there's really nothing in the flavor/description either way.  Actually, I'd say that the disclaimer about invisibility makes it more likely that it should be related to Spot, which is how we usually deal with monsters that don't surprise easily.  Like I say, I'm fine with Uncanny Dodge, too.  But I also really don't want to make up an ever-so-slightly different version of Uncanny Dodge either.
		
Click to expand...



I'd prefer straight Uncanny Dodge over Improved Init + Spot bonus.

The impression I get is amazons are never caught unprepared when surprise attacked, not that they're any more likely to spot such attacks.



freyar said:



			I'd prefer Weapon Focus as a bonus feat.  It makes sense to me.  We can list the choice of weapons.

Let's see if Uncanny Dodge and a +4 Spot bonus will go over ok with Cleon.
		
Click to expand...



Well I could compromise with that, she can always use the Weapon Focus as the prereq for Weapon Specialization.

Updating the Working Draft.

I would still have preferred something a bit meatier, such as:

Martial Training (Ex): Amazons are talented fighters. An amazon with levels in humanoid gains a base attack bonus equal to her humanoid Hit Dice. An amazon qualifies for feats as if she were a fighter of a level equal to her Base Attack Bonus. Amazons are proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with medium armor, light armor and all shields (including tower shields). An amazon gains Improved Unarmed Strike and Weapon Focus (in 1 weapon) as bonus feats, if she has a base attack bonus of +4 or higher she also gains Weapon Specialization (in the same weapon as her Weapon Focus) as a bonus feat.*


----------



## freyar (Dec 12, 2011)

Well, my point was that the AD&D weapon spec is more than the feat, but you weren't arguing for all the extra abilities. 

I'm not sure where you get the impression that it's about being prepared rather than unsurprised, since it says they aren't surprised except by invisible critters.  But I'm glad we could make that compromise. 

I think the problem with the meatier version is that it's just too good.  Or at least that's what I'm hearing Shade say.


----------



## Shade (Dec 12, 2011)

freyar said:


> I think the problem with the meatier version is that it's just too good.  Or at least that's what I'm hearing Shade say.




Agreed.  Too much meat.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> Agreed.  Too much meat.




Well those amazons won't get to grow to be 7 feet tall if they don't get plenty of protein in their diet, you know. 

So, are you OK with the current Working Draft version with Weapon Focus by itself?


----------



## freyar (Dec 12, 2011)

Yup.  You think it needs anything else?


----------



## Shade (Dec 12, 2011)

Cleon said:


> So, are you OK with the current Working Draft version with Weapon Focus by itself?




Indeed!


----------



## Cleon (Dec 13, 2011)

freyar said:


> Yup.  You think it needs anything else?




I'm wondering whether we should change the Alingment entry. Maybe "same as base creature"?

Also, I feel I ought to remove the comma from "An amazon's unarmed strike ability does not stack with the unarmed strike ability of a monk, or any other class".

Apart from that, we just need some introductory text and a sample creature.


----------



## freyar (Dec 13, 2011)

Yes on your suggested alignment.

And, yes, remove that comma.

What do you fancy for a base creature?  A normal human seems right, but I don't mind much whichever class.  Rogue or ranger maybe.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 13, 2011)

freyar said:


> Yes on your suggested alignment.
> 
> And, yes, remove that comma.
> 
> What do you fancy for a base creature?  A normal human seems right, but I don't mind much whichever class.  Rogue or ranger maybe.




Updating the *Working Draft*.

I'd go for human fighter 4th for the sample creature, since that's what the standard Amazon seems to be.


----------



## freyar (Dec 14, 2011)

Makes sense.  CR +1 looks good, too, by the way.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 14, 2011)

freyar said:


> Makes sense.  CR +1 looks good, too, by the way.




What about the Level Adjustment?


----------



## freyar (Dec 15, 2011)

I'm not much good at LA, but it's probably ok.  Shade's usually pretty good with LA.


----------



## Shade (Dec 15, 2011)

freyar said:


> I'm not much good at LA, but it's probably ok.  Shade's usually pretty good with LA.




I'd peg it as a strong +2/weak +3.   The ability score adjustments alone are worth a solid +1, and the multiple bonus feats and martial training easily account for another +1.


----------



## freyar (Dec 15, 2011)

Ready for the sample?

Suggested abilities:
elite array Str 15, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 10
--> Str 19, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 12

What do you think?


----------



## Shade (Dec 16, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ready for the sample?
> 
> Suggested abilities:
> elite array Str 15, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 10
> ...




I'm tempted to reverse the Str and Dex, but I don't mind this.


----------



## freyar (Dec 16, 2011)

Str 17, Dex 17 would be fine.  I guess it depends on what armor we want to give her.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'm tempted to reverse the Str and Dex, but I don't mind this.




I prefer the Str 17, Dex 17 version.

+2 LA would suit me.


----------



## Shade (Dec 16, 2011)

freyar said:


> Str 17, Dex 17 would be fine.  I guess it depends on what armor we want to give her.




Breastplate!


----------



## Cleon (Dec 17, 2011)

Shade said:


> Breastplate!




That'd work, it'll play to her assets by allowing her to use all her Dex bonus on AC.

I'd better update the *Working Draft* with an outline of the sample so far.


----------



## freyar (Dec 18, 2011)

Don't forget to swap to Str 13, Dex 15 in the elite array listing.  

Typical weapons are "spears are most common, also a variety of swords, axes, and bows."  So a spear and longbow?  Or maybe some kind of axe?


----------



## Cleon (Dec 18, 2011)

freyar said:


> Don't forget to swap to Str 13, Dex 15 in the elite array listing.
> 
> Typical weapons are "spears are most common, also a variety of swords, axes, and bows."  So a spear and longbow?  Or maybe some kind of axe?




Spear is fine by me, although I am leaning more towards composite longbow so we can make it mighty.

I'll update it with the basic weapon stats, but she'll likely have Weapon Focus and Specialization, and possibly a masterwork spear or mighty composite bow.


----------



## Shade (Dec 19, 2011)

Yeah, let's make it mighty composite.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 19, 2011)

Shade said:


> Yeah, let's make it mighty composite.




What's our budget?

Can we afford a +3 Str composite bow and a masterwork spear?

Do we have the money for something better?


----------



## freyar (Dec 20, 2011)

4th and 5th level NPCs get 3300gp and 4300gp respectively.  So masterwork spear, +1 breastplate, masterwork +3 mighty composite longbow (total cost 2200 gp) is well within reach.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 20, 2011)

freyar said:


> 4th and 5th level NPCs get 3300gp and 4300gp respectively.  So masterwork spear, +1 breastplate, masterwork +3 mighty composite longbow (total cost 2200 gp) is well within reach.




It comes to a tad more than 2200 gp though...

Masterwork spear 301 gp
Masterwork composite longbow 700 gp
_+1 breastplate_ 1350 gp
*Total* 2351 gp

We'd want to use the 5th level 4300 gp wouldn't we, since they've got a +1 CR adjustment.

That leaves 1949 gp. How about a _+1 cloak of resistance_ and a few potions or oils, such as _oil of magic weapon__,_ _potions of cure light wound_, _shield of faith_, or _enlarge person._


----------



## freyar (Dec 21, 2011)

Did I forget to add the masterwork cost to the breastplate?  Oops.

Yes, the cloak and potions work for me.


----------



## Shade (Dec 21, 2011)

freyar said:


> Yes, the cloak and potions work for me.




Same here.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 21, 2011)

Shade said:


> Same here.




I added that equipment to the *Working Draft* 

Had quite a lot of gold left, so I tossed in a cold iron battleaxe, silver shortsword, _everburning torch_ and a _potion of lesser restoration_.

Oh, and I gave her some arrows as well, so the composite longbow was actually useful for something.


----------



## freyar (Dec 22, 2011)

Sure, that looks good to me.

Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Far Shot, Weapon Specialization, Combat Reflexes, Power Attack?

Put Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec on the spear, as it's the "typical amazon weapon"?


----------



## Cleon (Dec 22, 2011)

freyar said:


> Sure, that looks good to me.
> 
> Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Far Shot, Weapon Specialization, Combat Reflexes, Power Attack?
> 
> Put Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec on the spear, as it's the "typical amazon weapon"?




I'd much rather give her Rapid Shot than Precise Shot. The latter's only useful when she's shooting at an enemy engaged with one of her sisters, while Rapid Shot is more generally applicable.


----------



## freyar (Dec 24, 2011)

They do fight in mercenary groups, right?  Might be useful more than you'd think.  But I won't push it if you care that much.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 24, 2011)

freyar said:


> They do fight in mercenary groups, right?  Might be useful more than you'd think.  But I won't push it if you care that much.




Yes, but how often will she not have other options (like shooting someone who isn't toe-to-toe with an ally, or switching to her spear and meleeing)?

If she had another feat to spare, or she was an "Archer Amazon" with WF (bow) rather than a "Spear Amazon" with WF (spear) I'd be fine with Precise Shot, but as it is I prefer Rapid Shot.


----------



## freyar (Dec 25, 2011)

Want to use something for the spear instead?  Can't she use PBS and Point Blank with the spear, too?


----------



## Cleon (Dec 31, 2011)

freyar said:


> Want to use something for the spear instead?  Can't she use PBS and Point Blank with the spear, too?




PBS _*and*_ Point Blank. Isn't that tautological?

Point Blank Shot works for a thrown spear, yes.

I'd also fancy swapping Far Shot for something else, since I see her as mostly a melee fighter. Any preferences?


----------



## freyar (Jan 2, 2012)

Hmm, that second one was supposed to be Precise Shot. :S

I guess we're set with Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Specialization, Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, and one more.  But the melee choices she has aren't too inspiring.  Cleave maybe?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 2, 2012)

freyar said:


> Hmm, that second one was supposed to be Precise Shot. :S
> 
> I guess we're set with Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Specialization, Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, and one more.  But the melee choices she has aren't too inspiring.  Cleave maybe?




How about Improved Sunder, to be different?


----------



## Shade (Jan 3, 2012)

Cleon said:


> How about Improved Sunder, to be different?




If she were a swordazon or axeazon, sure.  But being a spearazon, I think Cleave's a better fit.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 3, 2012)

Shade said:


> If she were a swordazon or axeazon, sure.  But being a spearazon, I think Cleave's a better fit.




Well I don't mind Cleave, I was just thinking we could try something a little different. Since you both seem to prefer it, I'll the *Working Draft* with those feats.

Oh, I changed the _everburning torch_ to a _sunrod_ to afford to increase the longbow to a +4 Strength bonus.


----------



## freyar (Jan 3, 2012)

Works for me.  Are they done?


----------



## Shade (Jan 4, 2012)

freyar said:


> Works for me.  Are they done?




We still need flavor text and description.   Why did we decide to not stack the unarmed strike with monk levels?  It seems odd that it wouldn't stack.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 4, 2012)

Shade said:


> We still need flavor text and description.   Why did we decide to not stack the unarmed strike with monk levels?  It seems odd that it wouldn't stack.




Well it just kept it simpler. Also, the amazon's Unarmed Strike wasn't given a level, so what number would stack with the monk levels?

I suppose we could say "an amazon has an unarmed strike ability equal to an 1st level monk, this stacks with the unarmed strike from monk levels and other sources". Of course that means that an Amazon monk would have an unarmed strike 1 level above a normal monk, but that might make sense.


----------



## Shade (Jan 4, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Well it just kept it simpler. Also, the amazon's Unarmed Strike wasn't given a level, so what number would stack with the monk levels?
> 
> I suppose we could say "an amazon has an unarmed strike ability equal to an 1st level monk, this stacks with the unarmed strike from monk levels and other sources". Of course that means that an Amazon monk would have an unarmed strike 1 level above a normal monk, but that might make sense.




Yeah, I think it fits the whole "superior warrior" theme nicely.


----------



## freyar (Jan 4, 2012)

I think it's better to keep it as the feat.  They aren't particularly monkish (they seem more like fighters to me).

EDIT: well, if you'd both rather do that...


----------



## Shade (Jan 5, 2012)

freyar said:


> I think it's better to keep it as the feat.  They aren't particularly monkish (they seem more like fighters to me).
> 
> EDIT: well, if you'd both rather do that...




I'd be fine with just giving 'em Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat.  But if we give them the unarmed strike special attack, I'd like it to stack.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 6, 2012)

Shade said:


> I'd be fine with just giving 'em Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat.  But if we give them the unarmed strike special attack, I'd like it to stack.




So shall I change the *Working Draft* to "an amazon has an unarmed strike ability equal to an 1st level monk, this  stacks with the unarmed strike from monk levels and other sources"?


----------



## freyar (Jan 7, 2012)

Hmmmph, right now we have both the attack and the feat.

I prefer just IUS as a bonus feat, but I get the feeling you both like the monk ability.  I'm ok with that if that's the consensus.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 7, 2012)

freyar said:


> Hmmmph, right now we have both the attack and the feat.
> 
> I prefer just IUS as a bonus feat, but I get the feeling you both like the monk ability.  I'm ok with that if that's the consensus.




The Unarmed Strike ability includes Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat.

Yes, I do prefer the ability.


----------



## Shade (Jan 19, 2012)

I'd prefer just the bonus feat, but I can live with the ability.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 19, 2012)

Shade said:


> I'd prefer just the bonus feat, but I can live with the ability.




I prefer the ability since the AD&D Amazon does higher damage with her unarmed strikes than a regular human.


----------



## freyar (Jan 21, 2012)

Let's just go with it and move on...


----------



## Cleon (Jan 21, 2012)

freyar said:


> Let's just go with it and move on...




OK, I'll just  change the *Working Draft* to the 1st level monk version of unarmed strike so we can proceed.

We still need some flavour text. Any ideas?


----------



## Shade (Jan 23, 2012)

"Amazons are a multigeneration warrior subculture of many humanoid races.  Only females are invited to train in the ways of the amazon..."


----------



## Cleon (Jan 23, 2012)

Shade said:


> "Amazons are a multigeneration warrior subculture of many humanoid races.  Only females are invited to train in the ways of the amazon..."




What think ye of this:

Amazons are formidable warrior women who live in small, reclusive tribes with their children and subservient menfolk. There are amazon tribes of many humanoid races - human amazons are the most common, but the sages have recorded dwarf, elf, gnome or even halfling amazon tribes. In theory, any humanoid female could become an amazon, even a "monstrous" race like a bugbear or kobold.  Only females are allowed to follow the ways of the amazon, but a worthy enough female warrior may be adopted into a clan following a period of initiation, training, and questing.

Amazons are exceptionally tall examples of their race, they tend to be handsome but hard-eyed, and may seem callous or cold-hearted.


----------



## freyar (Jan 23, 2012)

Looks good.  I'm not sure whether it really needs the red text or not.  After all, NPCs with PC class levels (as most of these should be) are supposed to be elite anyway.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 24, 2012)

freyar said:


> Looks good.  I'm not sure whether it really needs the red text or not.  After all, NPCs with PC class levels (as most of these should be) are supposed to be elite anyway.




The red text in the Working Draft's is there because "Those failing to meet the harsh standards expected of amazon warriors by the age of 20 are banished and not allowed to rejoin the clan except under the most extraordinary circumstance." The elite array bit is just a way to quantify it.

Also, the SRD rules says the elite array is "most appropriate" for creatures with PC class levels, it doesn't forbid them from using the non-elite or standard arrays. The red text makes it clear this is a rare occurrence with amazons.

Besides, what if they make an Amazon with an NPC class?


----------



## Shade (Jan 24, 2012)

I don't mind the red text.  Are these ready for transfer to Homebrews?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 24, 2012)

Shade said:


> I don't mind the red text.  Are these ready for transfer to Homebrews?




I'd add a bit more background info...

The basic unit of amazon society is the clan. Their culture is fiercely  martial, with the most powerful warrior ruling as tribal queen. Each  clan has fighting skills and tactics well suited to whichever  environment they live in - horse archers for steppe amazons, longbow  armed canoeists for island amazons, et cetera.

Updating the *Working Draft*.

I think that'll do.


----------



## freyar (Jan 24, 2012)

Looks fine.  Just change
"The majority of amazons use the elite ability array, those that do not usually fail to meet the harsh standards of amazon society and are banished."
to 
"The majority of amazons use the elite ability array. Those that do not usually fail to meet the harsh standards of amazon society and are banished."
and it's grammatical, too.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 25, 2012)

freyar said:


> Looks fine.  Just change
> "The majority of amazons use the elite ability array, those that do not usually fail to meet the harsh standards of amazon society and are banished."
> to
> "The majority of amazons use the elite ability array. Those that do not usually fail to meet the harsh standards of amazon society and are banished."
> and it's grammatical, too.




As you like.

Updating the *Working Draft*.


----------



## freyar (Jan 25, 2012)

I'd say they look done. Get'em into homebrews, and we can start on the emezons.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 26, 2012)

freyar said:


> I'd say they look done. Get'em into homebrews, and we can start on the emezons.




Agreed.

Emezon's are basically humans with a "Wail of Sympathy" ability. Their favored class appears to be Cleric.

I suppose we'd better make them a template as well.

Give them weapon proficiency in "skillet" (equals heavy mace, maybe with a slight tweak like being throwable - probably while crying "Get Out Of My Kitchen!")?

A note that it's very rare for them to have the elite ability array? ("Their ability scores are average in all respects")

Racial bonus in child rearing skills?


----------



## Shade (Jan 26, 2012)

freyar said:


> I'd say they look done. Get'em into homebrews, and we can start on the emezons.




Done.



Cleon said:


> Emezon's are basically humans with a "Wail of Sympathy" ability. Their favored class appears to be Cleric.
> 
> I suppose we'd better make them a template as well.




Agreed to all that.



Cleon said:


> Give them weapon proficiency in "skillet" (equals heavy mace, maybe with a slight tweak like being throwable - probably while crying "Get Out Of My Kitchen!")?




That's a bit too silly for my tastes.  How about just noting that they wield whatever items are available as clubs, or note that they use improvised weapons?



Cleon said:


> A note that it's very rare for them to have the elite ability array? ("Their ability scores are average in all respects")




Sounds good.



Cleon said:


> Racial bonus in child rearing skills?




Which are...?

I can see applying almost every skill to child rearing at one point or another.   I know I've often had to Spot my child knocking something breakable off a shelf, then Tumble over and catch it with Sleight of Hand whiie Balancing precariously and using a blend of Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate to prevent the next catastrophe!


----------



## freyar (Jan 27, 2012)

I could see possibly letting them use improvised weapons without penalty.  Or maybe not, as they're supposed to be pathetic.



> If attacked in lair, an emezon will often start an unearthly wailing, which causes each creature within 60' to make a saving throw vs. spells. Those failing will immediately try to comfort and protect the poor thing.
> 
> Rumors indicate that all emezons are spellcasters, as they are prone to chanting words of various types while preparing meals. Detailed observation indicates that while a few are actually clerics, reaching a maximum of 5th level of experience, others are low-level chefs (see "Zee Chef", on the preceding pages for details), preoccupied with dweomers involving the creation, purification, and flavoring of food and drink.




We've done something like that wail before, but I can't quite place it.

Anyone have material on the zee chef?  We could give them all some small SLAs based on that.  Or else just something like mending or prestidigitation, you know, useful around the house.


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## Cleon (Jan 27, 2012)

freyar said:


> I could see possibly letting them use improvised weapons without penalty.  Or maybe not, as they're supposed to be pathetic.
> 
> We've done something like that wail before, but I can't quite place it.




Sounds familiar. Wasn't it some kind of emotional parasite?



freyar said:


> Anyone have material on the zee chef?  We could give them all some small SLAs based on that.  Or else just something like mending or prestidigitation, you know, useful around the house.




I'd rather make Zee Chefs be old/exceptional emezons that have developed intrinsic magical abilities, the same relationship as Stone Giant Elders to standard Stone Giants.


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## Shade (Jan 31, 2012)

Cleon said:


> I'd rather make Zee Chefs be old/exceptional emezons that have developed intrinsic magical abilities, the same relationship as Stone Giant Elders to standard Stone Giants.




Good idea!


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## freyar (Jan 31, 2012)

Shade, do you remember that wail?


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## Cleon (Feb 1, 2012)

Shade said:


> Good idea!




In either case, we might as well Zee Chefs until we've finished the basic version.


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## Shade (Feb 2, 2012)

freyar said:


> Shade, do you remember that wail?




This is somewhat close:

Cringe (Su): As a standard action, a skeroloth can cower in fear. This is a mind-affecting effect. Any opponent attempting to strike or otherwise directly attack a cringing skeroloth, even with a targeted spell, must attempt a Will save (DC 12). If the save succeeds, the opponent can attack normally and is immune to the effect of that skeroloth's cringing for one day. If the save fails, the opponent can't follow through with the attack, that part of the attacker's action is lost, and the attacker can't directly attack that skeroloth for as long as it continues to cringe. If the skeroloth stops cringing and then cringes again, the opponent may attempt a new Will save to attack it. The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## Cleon (Feb 3, 2012)

Shade said:


> This is somewhat close:
> 
> Cringe (Su): As a standard action, a skeroloth can cower in fear. This is a mind-affecting effect. Any opponent attempting to strike or otherwise directly attack a cringing skeroloth, even with a targeted spell, must attempt a Will save (DC 12). If the save succeeds, the opponent can attack normally and is immune to the effect of that skeroloth's cringing for one day. If the save fails, the opponent can't follow through with the attack, that part of the attacker's action is lost, and the attacker can't directly attack that skeroloth for as long as it continues to cringe. If the skeroloth stops cringing and then cringes again, the opponent may attempt a new Will save to attack it. The save DC is Charisma-based.




That's not that close. The Emezon wail makes its victims actively try to console them.


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## freyar (Feb 8, 2012)

Just add "and tries to comfort the emezon," and it might work.


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## Cleon (Feb 8, 2012)

freyar said:


> Just add "and tries to comfort the emezon," and it might work.




The emezon's wail also affects a 60 ft. radius, not just whoever attacked it.

Also, they only do it when in their lair - what's up with that?


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Also, they only do it when in their lair - what's up with that?




I'm comfortable dropping that restriction.


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## freyar (Feb 10, 2012)

Let's just note in flavor that they are typically encountered in their lairs/campsites.

Here's a try.  I changed it a bit to interact with attitudes (like the Diplomacy skill), the way a charm spell does.  Note that a helpful attitude includes taking risks to help or protect someone.

Pitiful Wail (Su): As a standard action, an emezon can moan and cry woefully.  Any creature within 60 ft that hears this wail must make a DC X Will save; on a failed save, the victim suffers the effects of a charm monster spell except that the victim's attitude toward the emezon is adjusted to helpful for DURATION.  Whether or not the save is successful, an affected creature is immune to the same emezon's pitiful wail for 24 hours.  This is a sonic mind-affecting charm effect.  The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## Cleon (Feb 10, 2012)

freyar said:


> Let's just note in flavor that they are typically encountered in their lairs/campsites.




That'd be fine by me.



freyar said:


> Here's a try.  I changed it a bit to interact with attitudes (like the Diplomacy skill), the way a charm spell does.  Note that a helpful attitude includes taking risks to help or protect someone.
> 
> Pitiful Wail (Su): As a standard action, an emezon can moan and cry woefully.  Any creature within 60 ft that hears this wail must make a DC X Will save; on a failed save, the victim suffers the effects of a charm monster spell except that the victim's attitude toward the emezon is adjusted to helpful for DURATION.  Whether or not the save is successful, an affected creature is immune to the same emezon's pitiful wail for 24 hours.  This is a sonic mind-affecting charm effect.  The save DC is Charisma-based.




I was thinking we could adapt the Song special attack of a Harpy or Ravenloft Siren, since it draws the victim(s) towards the emezon and forces them into an altered state of mind.

e.g.

*Pitiful Wail (Su):* As a standard action, an emezon can moan and cry woefully. All creatures (other than amazons, sirens and harpies) within a 60-foot spread must succeed on a DC X Will save or become captivated. This is a sonic mind-affecting charm effect. A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same emezon's wail for 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma-based.

A captivated victim is charmed (as the _charm monster_ spell) and moves toward the emezon, taking the most direct route available. If the path leads into a dangerous area (through flame, off a cliff, or the like), that creature gets a second saving throw. A victim within reach of the emezon stop moving and tries to comfort the distressed emezon, but will fight in self-defense if attacked. The effects of a pitiful wail continues for as long as the emezon wails and for 1 round thereafter. A bard's countersong ability allows the captivated creature to attempt a new Will save.


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## freyar (Feb 13, 2012)

Something like that could work but doesn't motivate them to protect the emezon (charm only makes you friendly, not helpful).  How about combining the two?


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## Cleon (Feb 13, 2012)

freyar said:


> Something like that could work but doesn't motivate them to protect the emezon (charm only makes you friendly, not helpful).  How about combining the two?




Just increase the effect to helpful then, it's not a complicated change.


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## freyar (Feb 14, 2012)

Here we go.

Pitiful Wail (Su): As a standard action, an emezon can moan and cry woefully. All creatures (other than amazons, sirens and harpies) within a 60-foot spread must succeed on a DC X Will save or become captivated. This is a sonic mind-affecting charm effect. A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same emezon's wail for 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma-based.

A captivated victim is charmed (as the charm monster spell, except that the victim's attitude toward the emezon is adjusted to helpful) and moves toward the emezon, taking the most direct route available. If the path leads into a dangerous area (through flame, off a cliff, or the like), that creature gets a second saving throw. A victim within reach of the emezon stop moving and tries to comfort and protect the distressed emezon, but will fight in self-defense if attacked. The effects of a pitiful wail continues for as long as the emezon wails and for 1 round thereafter. A bard's countersong ability allows the captivated creature to attempt a new Will save.


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## Cleon (Feb 15, 2012)

freyar said:


> Here we go.
> 
> Pitiful Wail (Su): As a standard action, an emezon can moan and cry woefully. All creatures (other than amazons, sirens and harpies) within a 60-foot spread must succeed on a DC X Will save or become captivated. This is a sonic mind-affecting charm effect. A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same emezon's wail for 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma-based.
> 
> A captivated victim is charmed (as the charm monster spell, except that the victim's attitude toward the emezon is adjusted to helpful) and moves toward the emezon, taking the most direct route available. If the path leads into a dangerous area (through flame, off a cliff, or the like), that creature gets a second saving throw. A victim within reach of the emezon stop moving and tries to comfort and protect the distressed emezon, but will fight in self-defense if attacked. The effects of a pitiful wail continues for as long as the emezon wails and for 1 round thereafter. A bard's countersong ability allows the captivated creature to attempt a new Will save.




That'll do.


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## Shade (Feb 16, 2012)

Cleon said:


> That'll do.




Yes.  Your pitiful wailing has encouraged me to agree.


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## Cleon (Feb 17, 2012)

Shade said:


> Yes.  Your pitiful wailing has encouraged me to agree.




But when will you start comforting us?


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## freyar (Feb 22, 2012)

Was there anything else we wanted for these?


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## Cleon (Feb 22, 2012)

freyar said:


> Was there anything else we wanted for these?




Ahem...



Shade said:


> Cleon said:
> 
> 
> > I'd rather make Zee Chefs be old/exceptional emezons that have developed  intrinsic magical abilities, the same relationship as Stone Giant  Elders to standard Stone Giants.
> ...


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## Shade (Feb 23, 2012)

Did you ever start a Working Draft for these?


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## Cleon (Feb 23, 2012)

Shade said:


> Did you ever start a Working Draft for these?




No, I don't think we did.

Would you like to do the honours, or shall I?


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## freyar (Feb 27, 2012)

Well, I meant before we got into the Zee Chefs, but anyway....

I guess we'll proceed when we have a homebrew or draft or whatever.


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## Cleon (Feb 28, 2012)

freyar said:


> Well, I meant before we got into the Zee Chefs, but anyway....
> 
> I guess we'll proceed when we have a homebrew or draft or whatever.




*Sigh*

No rest for the perfectly innocent. Those player characters were dead when I checked the dungeon. 

Guess I can start it off...


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## Cleon (Feb 28, 2012)

*Emezon Working Draft*

*Amazon, Emezon (Template)*
_A handsome but timid seeming male humanoid._

 In any society where amazon cultures thrive, one is likely to find the   emezon.  Whereas amazons are paragons of female warrior culture, emezons  are exemplars of male domesticity. Emezons normally serve  as cooks,  nannies, and decorators for the amazons of their tribe. 

Emezons stay as far removed from battle as they can. Only on the rarest  of occasions are emezons pressed into guard duty.   Most of the time,  they simply fight with whatever improvised weapons can  be found, and  only after unleashing a pitiful wail.

Amazons treat the emezons of their tribe well, and award the best among them with a trophy each month to encourage excellence.

*Creating an Emezon*
"Emezon" is a template that can be added to any humanoid male (referred to hereafter as the "base creature").

An emezon uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

*Size and Type:*   Same as the base creature.

*Hit Dice:*   Same as the base creature.

*Speed:*   Same as the base creature.

*Armor Class:*   Same as the base creature.

*Attack:*     Same as the base creature.

*Full Attack:*     Same as the base creature.

*Damage:*   Same as the base creature.

*Special Attacks:* An emezon retains all the special attacks of the base creature and gains the pitiful wail special attack described below.

_*Pitiful Wail (Su):*_ As a standard action, an emezon can moan and cry  woefully. All humanoids (other than amazons) within a  60-foot spread must succeed on a Will save (DC 10 plus half racial hit dice plus Charisma bonus) or become captivated.  This is a sonic mind-affecting charm effect. A creature that  successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same emezon's wail  for 24 hours.

A captivated victim is charmed (as the _charm monster _spell, except that  the victim's attitude toward the emezon is adjusted to helpful) and  moves toward the emezon, taking the most direct route available. If the  path leads into a dangerous area (through flame, off a cliff, or the  like), that creature gets a second saving throw. A victim within reach  of the emezon stop moving and tries to comfort and protect the  distressed emezon, but will fight in self-defense if attacked. The  effects of a pitiful wail continues for as long as the emezon wails and  for 1 round thereafter. A bard's countersong ability allows the  captivated creature to attempt a new Will save.

*Special Qualities:* Same as the base creature.

*Abilities:* Increase from the base creature as follows: Str -2, Cha +2. Same as the base creature.

*Skills:* Same as the base creature.

*Feats:*  Same as the base creature.

*Environment:* Any, usually same as base creature.
*Organization:* *Organization:* Solitary, family (1-4 plus 1 amazons and 0-4  children), settlement  (10-20 plus 5-40 children and 1 cleric, adept or  wizard of 1st-2nd  level; plus 10-20 amazons and 1 amazon leader of  5th-6th level) or clan  (30-100 plus 60-200 non-combatants, 2-5 clerics,  adepts, or wizards  of  2nd-8th level, and 1 cleric or wizard of  7th-12th level; plus 30-100   amazons, 4-8 amazon leaders of 5th-6th  level, 1 amazon captain of   7th-8th level, and 1  amazon queen of  9th-12th level)
*Challenge Rating:* Same as the base creature.
*Treasure:* Standard.
*Alignment:* Same as the base creature.
*Advancement:* By character class.
*Level Adjustment:* Same as the base creature +1.

*Sample Emezon*
The following sample creature has gained the amazon template.

*Emezon Domestic*
*1st** level human expert
*Medium Humanoid
*Hit Dice:* 1d6 (3 hp)
*Initiative:* +0
*Speed:* 30 ft. (6 squares)
*Armor Class:* 11 (+1 padded), touch 10, flat-footed 11
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +0/-2
*Attack:* Light mace -2 melee (1d6-2)
*Full Attack:* Light mace -2 melee (1d6-2)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Pitiful wail
*Special Qualities:* —
*Saves:* Fort +0, Ref +0, Will +3
*Abilities:* Str 6, Dex 11, Con 10, Int 9, Wis 13, Cha 14
*Skills:* Craft (any 1) +6, Diplomacy +6, Heal +5*, Profession (any 1) +5, Sense Motive +5
*Heal skill does not include a use of his Healer's Kit.
*Feats:* Skill Focus (Craft)
*Environment:* Any land
*Organization:* *Organization:* Solitary, family (1-4 plus 1 amazons and 0-4  children), settlement  (10-20 plus 5-40 children and 1 cleric, adept or  wizard of 1st-2nd  level; plus 10-20 amazons and 1 amazon leader of  5th-6th level) or clan  (30-100 plus 60-200 non-combatants, 2-5 clerics,  adepts, or wizards  of  2nd-8th level, and 1 cleric or wizard of  7th-12th level; plus 30-100   amazons, 4-8 amazon leaders of 5th-6th  level, 1 amazon captain of   7th-8th level, and 1  amazon queen of  9th-12th level)
*Challenge Rating:* 1/2
*Treasure:* Standard
*Alignment:* Usually neutral
*Advancement:* By character class
*Level Adjustment:* +1

This emezon is a non-elite human male 1st level expert with the following ability scores before racial and template adjustments: Str 8, Dex 11, Con 10, Int 9, Wis 13, Cha 12.

*Equipment:* Leather armor, light mace, healer's kit.

*COMBAT*

*Pitiful Wail (Su):* DC 12.

*Zee Chefs*
Emezon clerics can select a special cleric domain, the Culinary Domain, which is detailed below. An emezon cleric with the Culinary Domain belongs to an order called zee chefs, who practice a curious food-related religion. An emezon cleric has access to two of the following domains: Artifice, Community, Culinary and Protection.

*Culinary Domain*
Any conjuration (creation) spell used to create food or drink will have  the number of creatures it can nourish increased by one-half.

_*Culinary Domain Spells*_
1 _goodberry_
2 _aid_
3 _create food and water_
4 _cocoadaemon_
5 _fabricate_*
6 _heroes' feast_
7 _true creation_*
8 _mage's magnificent mansion_
9 _iron body_
* These spells can only create food and drink.

_Originally appeared in Polyhedron Newszine #23 (April/March 1985)_


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## Cleon (Feb 28, 2012)

I'm wondering whether we should limit pitiful wail to affecting only humanoids, giants, and possibly monstrous humanoid.

It doesn't feel right for it to work against man-eating inhuman monsters.


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## Shade (Mar 2, 2012)

Cleon said:


> I'm wondering whether we should limit pitiful wail to affecting only humanoids, giants, and possibly monstrous humanoid.
> 
> It doesn't feel right for it to work against man-eating inhuman monsters.




I'd be happy to limit to only humanoids.   I'd really rather leave off giants.   Giant cares not for puny humanoid!  GIANT SMASH!


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## Cleon (Mar 2, 2012)

Shade said:


> I'd be happy to limit to only humanoids.   I'd really rather leave off giants.   Giant cares not for puny humanoid!  GIANT SMASH!




If we don't include Monstrous Humanoids shouldn't we cut out the reference to Harpies and Sirens being immune, since Harpies _*are*_ Monstrous Humanoids?


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2012)

Cleon said:


> If we don't include Monstrous Humanoids shouldn't we cut out the reference to Harpies and Sirens being immune, since Harpies _*are*_ Monstrous Humanoids?




Absolutely!


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## Cleon (Mar 6, 2012)

Shade said:


> Absolutely!




I've updated the *Working Draft* with the following:

_*Pitiful Wail (Su):*_ As a standard action, an emezon can  moan and cry  woefully. All humanoids (other than amazons) within a   60-foot spread must succeed on a Will save (DC 10 plus half racial hit  dice plus Charisma bonus) or become captivated.  This is a sonic  mind-affecting charm effect. A humanoid creature that  successfully  saves cannot be affected again by the same emezon's wail  for 24 hours.


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## Shade (Mar 8, 2012)

Cleon said:


> I've updated the *Working Draft* with the following:
> 
> _*Pitiful Wail (Su):*_ As a standard action, an emezon can  moan and cry  woefully. All humanoids (other than amazons) within a   60-foot spread must succeed on a Will save (DC 10 plus half racial hit  dice plus Charisma bonus) or become captivated.  This is a sonic  mind-affecting charm effect. A humanoid creature that  successfully  saves cannot be affected again by the same emezon's wail  for 24 hours.




You can leave off the second red "humanoid" since you've already established earlier in the ability that only humanoids can be affected.


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## Cleon (Mar 8, 2012)

Shade said:


> You can leave off the second red "humanoid" since you've already established earlier in the ability that only humanoids can be affected.




As you like. I'll change it to "a creature".

Updating the *Working Draft*.


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## freyar (Mar 9, 2012)

It looks good, and I'd be happy with dropping the question marks.  Do the basic ones need anything else?


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## Cleon (Mar 10, 2012)

freyar said:


> It looks good, and I'd be happy with dropping the question marks.  Do the basic ones need anything else?




A bit of background text is all.


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## Shade (Mar 13, 2012)

Oddly, I can't find the original writeup.


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## Cleon (Mar 13, 2012)

Shade said:


> Oddly, I can't find the original writeup.




Do you mean *this*?


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## Shade (Mar 15, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Do you mean *this*?




Indeed!

How about something like this?

In any society where amazon cultures thrive, one is likely to find the emezon.  Whereas amazons are paragons of female warrior culture, emezons are as far removed from battle as one may be.   They frequently serve as cooks, nannies, and decorators for the amazons of their tribe.

Only on the rarest of occasions are emezons pressed into guard duty.  Most of the time, they simply fight with whatever improvised weapons can be found, and only after unleashing a pitiful wail.

Amazons treat the emezons of their tribe well, and award the best among them with a trophy each month to encourage excellence.


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## Cleon (Mar 15, 2012)

Shade said:


> Indeed!
> 
> How about something like this?
> 
> ...




That looks good, although I'd make one or two little additions...

In any society where amazon cultures thrive, one is likely to find the  emezon.  Whereas amazons are paragons of female warrior culture, emezons are exemplars of male domesticity. Emezons normally serve  as cooks, nannies, and decorators for the amazons of their tribe. 

Emezons stay as far removed from battle as they can. Only on the rarest of occasions are emezons pressed into guard duty.   Most of the time, they simply fight with whatever improvised weapons can  be found, and only after unleashing a pitiful wail.

Amazons treat the emezons of their tribe well, and award the best among them with a trophy each month to encourage excellence.


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## freyar (Mar 15, 2012)

This looks great to me!  Ready for the zee chef?


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## Cleon (Mar 15, 2012)

freyar said:


> This looks great to me!  Ready for the zee chef?




You want to do that before the sample "standard" Emezon then?


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## freyar (Mar 19, 2012)

Oh, I guess we should do the sample first.  Human Expert 1?


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## Cleon (Mar 19, 2012)

freyar said:


> Oh, I guess we should do the sample first.  Human Expert 1?




That's what I was thinking, yes.

Boring old 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10 ability array?

Although, come to think of it, the Amazon MC entry says about half of Amazon menfolk can fight - "about half of them equal to men-at-arms, and armed and armored as their amazon mistresses".

That suggests we should do a Warrior 1 Emezon as well or instead.


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## freyar (Mar 20, 2012)

That's not under the emezon entry, though, is it?  I think the emezons are more like the household servant types.  I'd stick to Expert, but I think I'd go with the nonelite array.  Probably Str 8, Dex 11, Con 10, Int 9, Wis 13, Cha 12.


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2012)

freyar said:


> That's not under the emezon entry, though, is it?  I think the emezons are more like the household servant types.  I'd stick to Expert, but I think I'd go with the nonelite array.  Probably Str 8, Dex 11, Con 10, Int 9, Wis 13, Cha 12.




Yes, I think this fits the standard emezon best.


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## freyar (Mar 20, 2012)

He'd get 20 ranks: Profession (cooking), Profession (sewing), Craft (?) ??


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## Cleon (Mar 20, 2012)

freyar said:


> That's not under the emezon entry, though, is it?  I think the emezons are more like the household servant types.  I'd stick to Expert, but I think I'd go with the nonelite array.  Probably Str 8, Dex 11, Con 10, Int 9, Wis 13, Cha 12.




As you like. That stat array looks fine to me.



freyar said:


> He'd get 20 ranks: Profession (cooking), Profession (sewing), Craft (?) ??




I'd rather make it "Profession (any 1) and Craft (any 1)".

Diplomacy and Sense Motive to get the kids to do what you want and tell when they're fibbing to you?

Heal?


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## freyar (Mar 22, 2012)

Those 5 skills seem ok to me.


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## Shade (Mar 22, 2012)

freyar said:


> Those 5 skills seem ok to me.




I agree.


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## Cleon (Mar 23, 2012)

Shade said:


> I agree.




Updating the *Working Draft*.


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## freyar (Mar 24, 2012)

Let's give him a Skill Focus, maybe on the Profession skill.

We should probably borrow the org from the amazon.


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## Cleon (Mar 24, 2012)

freyar said:


> Let's give him a Skill Focus, maybe on the Profession skill.




It's Craft modifier is only +3, so I was thinking SF (Craft) to make it +6 might make better sense.



freyar said:


> We should probably borrow the org from the amazon.




That's only got emezons in the "tribe" group though, and also includes the emezon Warriors you didn't want to stat up.


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## freyar (Mar 28, 2012)

SF (Craft) is fine.

The original emezon text says they don't usually wear armor!  There's some miscommunication between the emezon and amazon original monster writeups somehow.  I think I'd rather modify the amazon org and base the emezon one on that, maybe modified since most of them are sitting in the camp.


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## Cleon (Mar 28, 2012)

freyar said:


> SF (Craft) is fine.




 Updating the *Working Draft*.     



freyar said:


> The original emezon text says they don't usually wear armor!




Hmm...



> Emezons normally do not wear armor, *except for a leather apron (AC 7)* at mealtimes





> Or rare occasions, emezons may be found with their amazon mistresses, acting as guards. They are then similarly *armored* and armed.



Considering how often the text refers to food-preparation, I suspect emezons might spend a lot of their day at "mealtimes", during which they wear armour the description says is equivalent to studded leather (AC 7).

Furthermore, the emezon stat block has "ARMOR CLASS: 8", which is the same as leather armour. The most plausible explanations are either an emezon has a +2 bonus from Dex or NA and the "apron" adds another +1 to that (i.e. it's equivalent to padded armour), or the AC 7 is an error and they wear the equivalent of leather armour.



freyar said:


> There's  some miscommunication between the emezon and amazon original monster  writeups somehow.  I think I'd rather modify the amazon org and base the  emezon one on that, maybe modified since most of them are sitting in  the camp.




I quite like the Amazon organisation as-is, and would prefer giving the Emezon their own organisation line. Amazon tribes might not *all* have emezon menfolk, some could have "normal" humanoids of their species.

Still, I'd consider a modified organisation if you would care to lay one out.


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## Shade (Apr 3, 2012)

I find it odd that a leather apron would grant even as much AC as leather armor, let alone studded leather.  

I'd rather just leave 'em unarmored, except in the rare instances they serve as guards.  They are supposed to be pathetic, after all.


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## Cleon (Apr 3, 2012)

Shade said:


> I find it odd that a leather apron would grant even as much AC as leather armor, let alone studded leather.
> 
> I'd rather just leave 'em unarmored, except in the rare instances they serve as guards.  They are supposed to be pathetic, after all.




I prefer giving them the armour bonus, since they have AC 8 in the original. 

It'd be easy enough to think of justifications for them wearing light armour but not being warrior. Apart from protecting an emezon from kitchen and food hall accidents.

Hmm, now what possible noncombat reason could dominating women have for dressing their menfolk up in leather...



You know, amazons might just be kinky.


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## Shade (Apr 5, 2012)

Ewww...

If we're going to armor 'em, I'd prefer plain leather or hide.


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## Cleon (Apr 6, 2012)

Shade said:


> Ewww...
> 
> If we're going to armor 'em, I'd prefer plain leather or hide.




Which brings us back to the leather armor in the current *Working Draft*.


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## freyar (Apr 7, 2012)

If we're going to give them an armor bonus from an apron, I'd think +1 like padded armor makes more sense.  It's not going to cover as well as leather armor, plus I doubt it will be made as well.

If you want to keep the amazon org unchanged with male warriors, then it probably shouldn't say that they're emezons (or else we should reduce the numbers, as emezon warriors are rare).  I'm also not too comfortable listing "emezon clerics, adepts, or wizards" until we figure out what a zee chef is.  I don't think emezons are likely to advance a whole lot in casting classes otherwise.  For the emezon org, I'd think it would be best to expand on the clan bit of the amazon org line (as that's how most emezons will be found).

Here is what we have for the amazon org, by the way, for easier reference:

Organization: Solitary, party (10-20 plus 1 leader of 5th-6th level, and 1 emezon cleric, adept or wizard of 2nd-4th level), party (20-50 plus 1-4 leaders of 5th-6th level, 1 captain of 7th-8th level, and 1-4 emezon clerics, adepts or wizards of 2nd-4th level) or clan (30-100 plus 4-8 leaders of 5th-6th level, 1 captain of 7th-8th level, 1 queen of 9th-12th level, 30-100 emezon 1st level warriors, 60-200 noncombatants, 2-5 emezon clerics, adepts or wizards of 2nd-4th level, and 1 emezon cleric or wizard of 4th-8th level).


----------



## Cleon (Apr 8, 2012)

freyar said:


> If we're going to give them an armor bonus from an apron, I'd think +1 like padded armor makes more sense.  It's not going to cover as well as leather armor, plus I doubt it will be made as well.




I prefer leather armour, but I 'd be willing to go along with padded if Shade prefers it too.



freyar said:


> If you want to keep the amazon org unchanged with male warriors, then it probably shouldn't say that they're emezons (or else we should reduce the numbers, as emezon warriors are rare).  I'm also not too comfortable listing "emezon clerics, adepts, or wizards" until we figure out what a zee chef is.  I don't think emezons are likely to advance a whole lot in casting classes otherwise.  For the emezon org, I'd think it would be best to expand on the clan bit of the amazon org line (as that's how most emezons will be found).
> 
> Here is what we have for the amazon org, by the way, for easier reference:
> 
> Organization: Solitary, party (10-20 plus 1 leader of 5th-6th level, and 1 emezon cleric, adept or wizard of 2nd-4th level), party (20-50 plus 1-4 leaders of 5th-6th level, 1 captain of 7th-8th level, and 1-4 emezon clerics, adepts or wizards of 2nd-4th level) or clan (30-100 plus 4-8 leaders of 5th-6th level, 1 captain of 7th-8th level, 1 queen of 9th-12th level, 30-100 emezon 1st level warriors, 60-200 noncombatants, 2-5 emezon clerics, adepts or wizards of 2nd-4th level, and 1 emezon cleric or wizard of 4th-8th level).




So, what organization are you proposing for the Amazon? Just swap "male humanoid" for "emezon"?


----------



## freyar (Apr 9, 2012)

I think I'd like to finish the emezon and zee chef first and then revisit the org for both.  I guess they shouldn't have identical orgs, but they should be consistent.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 9, 2012)

freyar said:


> I think I'd like to finish the emezon and zee chef first and then revisit the org for both.  I guess they shouldn't have identical orgs, but they should be consistent.




As you like.


----------



## Shade (Apr 10, 2012)

Let's go with padded armor.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 11, 2012)

Shade said:


> Let's go with padded armor.




I will reluctantly concede to your refusal to recognize Amazons fondness for pretty boys in leather. 

  Updating the *Working Draft*.

Where do you stand on the Organizations?


----------



## Shade (Apr 12, 2012)

Cleon said:


> I will reluctantly concede to your refusal to recognize Amazons fondness for pretty boys in leather.
> 
> Updating the *Working Draft*.
> 
> Where do you stand on the Organizations?




I'm content to revisit it after we finish Zee Chefs.


----------



## freyar (Apr 13, 2012)

I hear padding is all the fashion now, though. 

I think if we get Skill Focus (Craft) into the feat line there, we can take a look at the Zee Chef.  Agreed? And as for the Zee Chefs, just tack on some SLAs and advancement?


----------



## Shade (Apr 13, 2012)

freyar said:


> I hear padding is all the fashion now, though.
> 
> I think if we get Skill Focus (Craft) into the feat line there, we can take a look at the Zee Chef.  Agreed? And as for the Zee Chefs, just tack on some SLAs and advancement?




Sounds about right.


----------



## freyar (Apr 13, 2012)

In that case, Cha of at least 15 (like stone giant elder), maybe minimum of 3 levels of expert, and they get those SLAs?


----------



## Cleon (Apr 14, 2012)

freyar said:


> I hear padding is all the fashion now, though.
> 
> I think if we get Skill Focus (Craft) into the feat line there, we can take a look at the Zee Chef.  Agreed? And as for the Zee Chefs, just tack on some SLAs and advancement?




We'd decided on that SF, I just hadn't yet got around to updating the *Working Draft*.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 14, 2012)

freyar said:


> In that case, Cha of at least 15 (like stone giant elder), maybe minimum of 3 levels of expert, and they get those SLAs?




Shouldn't we check what Polyhedron #22 Zee Chef entry says? There must be something, since the Emezon's entry has "see “Zee Chef”, on the preceding pages for details".


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## Shade (Apr 17, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Shouldn't we check what Polyhedron #22 Zee Chef entry says? There must be something, since the Emezon's entry has "see “Zee Chef”, on the preceding pages for details".




Does anyone have that issue?   I believe I got the original stats from Echohawk.


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## Cleon (Apr 17, 2012)

Shade said:


> Does anyone have that issue?   I believe I got the original stats from Echohawk.




I don't believe so, although I have so much stuff I have trouble keeping track of it.

It's not on the Dragon CD ROM set, is it? I keep my copy of that close to hand.


----------



## freyar (Apr 19, 2012)

Oh, great monster collector [MENTION=9849]Echohawk[/MENTION], might you have the Zee Chef stats from Polyhedron #22?


----------



## Echohawk (Apr 19, 2012)

freyar said:


> Oh, great monster collector [MENTION=9849]Echohawk[/MENTION], might you have the Zee Chef stats from Polyhedron #22?



Ah yes. I have been half expecting this question since originally posting the emezon's entry many moons ago 

The article "Zee Chef" (it's in Poly #23, not #22) is a four and a half page article presenting a new class -- the chef. It includes a variety of chef spells, such as _create condiments_, _magic jam_, _transmute stone to jelly beans_, _explosive prunes_ and _cocoademon_*.

The class write-up concludes with a series of sample recipes, such as "griffon quiche supreme" and "troll steak a la tartar". I don't think it is an article intended to be taken particularly seriously.

* This might actually count as an unconverted creature, since the spell does include rudimentary stats for the chocolatey demon.


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## Shade (Apr 20, 2012)

Echohawk said:


> Ah yes. I have been half expecting this question since originally posting the emezon's entry many moons ago
> 
> The article "Zee Chef" (it's in Poly #23, not #22) is a four and a half page article presenting a new class -- the chef. It includes a variety of chef spells, such as _create condiments_, _magic jam_, _transmute stone to jelly beans_, _explosive prunes_ and _cocoademon_*.
> 
> ...




Oh no, a multi-page joke monster w/prestige class fodder!


----------



## Echohawk (Apr 20, 2012)

More like a multi-page joke class with a monster embedded inside one of the spells.

The emezon entry is really a separate article by a different author, which has a passing reference to the preceding "Zee Chef" article likely added at the editing stage.


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## Shade (Apr 20, 2012)

Echohawk said:


> More like a multi-page joke class with a monster embedded inside one of the spells.
> 
> The emezon entry is really a separate article by a different author, which has a passing reference to the preceding "Zee Chef" article likely added at the editing stage.




In that case, I strongly recommend we divorce the emezon from "Zee Chef" and move on.  I have less than zero interest in converting the jokey chef class.

I have a wee bit of interest in converting the cocoademon, though.


----------



## Echohawk (Apr 20, 2012)

*Cocoademon* (Conjuration/Summoning)

Level: 4
Range: 1"
Duration: Permanent until dispelled
Area of spell: Special
Components: V,S,M
Casting Time: 3 hours
Saving Throw: None

Explanation/Description: With this spell, the chef creates a 10" tall demon-like creature made of chocolate, which can obey simple instructions from its creator (such as carrying light objects, stealing a small item, sounding an alarm in case of an unexpected visit, etc.). The cocoademon is of low intelligence and, though loyal to its creator, it likes practical jokes and causing mischief (but hates hot temperatures). It has 1 hp per level of the caster and an armor class of 10. The material component is 3 pounds of chocolate.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 22, 2012)

Hmm, I don't really fancy making an entire new class for the Chef. We could just say their clerics have access to a new "Culinary" domain, something like:

*Culinary Domain*
Any conjuration (creation) spell used to create food or drink will have the number of creatures it can nourish increased by one-half.

_*Culinary Domain Spells*_
1 _goodberry_
2 _aid_
3 _create food and water_
4 _cacaodaemon_
5 _fabricate_*
6 _heroes' feast_
7 _true creation_*
8 _mage's magnificent mansion_
9 _iron body_
* These spells can only create food and drink.


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## Shade (Apr 23, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Hmm, I don't really fancy making an entire new class for the Chef. We could just say their clerics have access to a new "Culinary" domain, something like:
> 
> *Culinary Domain*
> Any conjuration (creation) spell used to create food or drink will have the number of creatures it can nourish increased by one-half.
> ...




Great idea!   This approach appeals.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 24, 2012)

Shade said:


> Great idea!   This approach appeals.




Shall I add that to "_*Emezons As Characters*_" section then?


----------



## Shade (Apr 24, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Shall I add that to "_*Emezons As Characters*_" section then?




Please do.


----------



## Echohawk (Apr 25, 2012)

Is that level 4 spell "cacaodaemon" or "cocoademon"...?


----------



## Cleon (Apr 25, 2012)

Shade said:


> Please do.




Updating the *Working Draft*.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 25, 2012)

Echohawk said:


> Is that level 4 spell "cacaodaemon" or "cocoademon"...?




Cocoa and Cacao are synonyms, so I suppose we could use either. I just found cacaodemon _slightly_ funnier.

The spell Echohawk posted used _cocoademon_, so I guess I'd better put that in the Draft...


----------



## Echohawk (Apr 25, 2012)

I had always assumed that "cacao" was the plant and "cocoa" was the stuff made from the... um... seeds? nuts?... parts of the cacao plant. I even have a vague recollection that the word "cocoa" was derived from an accidental misspelling of "cacao", but I may just have dreamed that part.

Does the inclusion of that spell mean that the demon will also need to be converted as part of the emezon entry?


----------



## Cleon (Apr 25, 2012)

Echohawk said:


> I had always assumed that "cacao" was the plant and "cocoa" was the stuff made from the... um... seeds? nuts?... parts of the cacao plant. I even have a vague recollection that the word "cocoa" was derived from an accidental misspelling of "cacao", but I may just have dreamed that part.




I think it's only a synonym when referring to the tree, its pods and beans, which can be cocoa or cacao, while the ground brown powdery stuff and the hot drink is usually just cocoa.

However, since we've already got a _cacodemon_ spell in AD&D, it just seemed funnier adding an "a" and turning it into fiendish confectionary.

Maybe we should rename it a Chocodemon to resolve the conflict. 



Echohawk said:


> Does the inclusion of that spell mean that the demon will also need to be converted as part of the emezon entry?




I'm afraid so...


----------



## Shade (Apr 26, 2012)

Let's stick with the original spell name and of course we'll convert the creature!



> Cocoademon (Conjuration/Summoning)
> 
> Level: 4
> Range: 1"
> ...




A 4th-level summon spell can get a mephit, so I imagine the power level similar to one of them.  A mephit is 4' tall, though, and this fellow is only 10" tall, so we'll have to downsize it to Diminutive.  I figure its consistency is probably closest to ooze, so I'll downsize an Ooze Mephit and add the usual demonic traits:

*Demon, Cocoademon*
Diminutive Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar, Tanar'ri)
Hit Dice: 3d8+3 (16 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 40 ft. (average), swim 30 ft.
Armor Class: 16 (+4 size, +2 Dex), touch 16, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/-10
Attack: Slam +6 melee (1)
Full Attack: 2 slams +6 melee (1)
Space/Reach: 1 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 5/cold iron or good, darkvision 60 ft., fast healing 2, immunity to poison, resistance to fire 10, telepathy 100 ft.
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +3
Abilities: Str 8, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 6, Wis 11, Cha 15
Skills: 6 at 6 ranks
Feats: 2
Environment: Infinite Layers of the Abyss
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 3
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: 4–6 HD (Diminutive); 7–9 HD (Tiny)
Level Adjustment: +3 (cohort) 


Alternatively, we can make it a cocoad*a*emon, and give it yugoloth traits:

*Cocoadaemon*
Diminutive Outsider (Evil, Extraplanar, Yugoloth)
Hit Dice: 3d8+3 (16 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 40 ft. (average), swim 30 ft.
Armor Class: 16 (+4 size, +2 Dex), touch 16, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/-10
Attack: Slam +6 melee (1)
Full Attack: 2 slams +6 melee (1)
Space/Reach: 1 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 5/good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to acid and poison, resistance to cold 10, electricity 10, and fire 10, telepathy 100 ft.
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +3
Abilities: Str 8, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 6, Wis 11, Cha 15
Skills: 6 at 6 ranks
Feats: 2
Environment: Bleak Eternity of Gehenna
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 3
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always neutral evil
Advancement: 4–6 HD (Diminutive); 7–9 HD (Tiny)
Level Adjustment: +3 (cohort)


----------



## Cleon (Apr 28, 2012)

Shade said:


> Let's stick with the original spell name and of course we'll convert the creature!
> 
> A 4th-level summon spell can get a mephit, so I imagine the power level similar to one of them.  A mephit is 4' tall, though, and this fellow is only 10" tall, so we'll have to downsize it to Diminutive.  I figure its consistency is probably closest to ooze, so I'll downsize an Ooze Mephit and add the usual demonic traits:




I was thinking of making it Tiny like an Imp, Quasit, or Homunculus.

Not sure about it being an Outsider.

Since it's literally _*made out of chocolate*_, it could be a Construct.

Maybe an Extraplanar one from the "Cacao Dimension"?

That would put it closer to a Homunculus than a Mephit.


----------



## Shade (May 1, 2012)

I'd be OK with increasing it to Tiny.

If we're keeping the name as "-demon" or "-daemon", then I'd like it to be one of those types.   However, they could still be constructs, like a retriever.

I'm definitely not fond of the "Cacao Dimension", though!


----------



## Echohawk (May 2, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Since it's literally _*made out of chocolate*_, it could be a Construct.





Shade said:


> If we're keeping the name as "-demon" or "-daemon", then I'd like it to be one of those types.   However, they could still be constructs, like a retriever.



The material component does strongly suggest a construct!


			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I'm definitely not fond of the "Cacao Dimension", though!



That's only three planes across from the Semi-Elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing.


----------



## Cleon (May 2, 2012)

Echohawk said:


> The material component does strongly suggest a construct!http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0802.html




So, are we OK with Tiny Construct (Evil, Extraplanar, Yugoloth)?



Echohawk said:


> That's only three planes across from the Semi-Elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing.




They ought to be closer than that, surely they are both sub-planes of the Elemental Plane of Fattening Foods?


----------



## Shade (May 3, 2012)

Cleon said:


> So, are we OK with Tiny Construct (Evil, Extraplanar, Yugoloth)?




Yes.  Applying that along with the homonculus' stats...

*Cocoadaemon*
Tiny Construct (Evil, Extraplanar, Yugoloth)
Hit Dice: 3d10 (16 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (+2 Dex, +2 size), touch 14, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/–8
Attack: Bite +2 melee (1d4–1)
Full Attack: Bite +2 melee (1d4–1)
Space/Reach: 2½ ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Construct traits, damage reduction 5/good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to acid and poison, resistance to cold 10, electricity 10, and fire 10, telepathy 100 ft.
Saves: Fort +0, Ref +2, Will +1
Abilities: Str 8, Dex 15, Con —, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 7
Skills: 12
Feats: 2
Environment: Bleak Eternity of Gehenna
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral evil
Advancement: 4–6 HD (Tiny)
Level Adjustment: +3 (cohort)


----------



## Cleon (May 5, 2012)

Shade said:


> Yes.  Applying that along with the homonculus' stats...
> 
> *Cocoadaemon*
> Tiny Construct (Evil, Extraplanar, Yugoloth)
> ...




Well I can see a few changes we might want to consider.



Shade said:


> Attack: Bite +2 melee (1d4–1)




Chocolate isn't exactly hard, so what is it biting with? I'm thinking a slam attack might be more appropriate. Maybe even two slams with a full attack, like the SRD Golems.



Shade said:


> Special Qualities: Construct traits, damage reduction 5/good, darkvision  60 ft., immunity to acid and poison, resistance to cold 10, electricity  10, and *fire 10*, telepathy 100 ft.




Constructs have immunity to poison as standard.

Resistance to fire and immunity to acid don't sound very appropriate for a creature _*made out of chocolate*_.

I'd cut them both.

Not sure about the telepathy, but I guess it doesn't hurt.



Shade said:


> Environment: Bleak Eternity of Gehenna
> Alignment: Always neutral evil




Finally, I'm thinking you're being a bit literal wanting to make these things Neutral Evil Yugoloths.

Emezons Chefs aren't neutral evil, so why should only they make malign Cacaodaemons?


----------



## freyar (May 8, 2012)

Well, if they're daemons, they should be yugolothy.  Maybe the non-evil emezons can make calzone golems instead?


----------



## Shade (May 8, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Chocolate isn't exactly hard, so what is it biting with? I'm thinking a slam attack might be more appropriate. Maybe even two slams with a full attack, like the SRD Golems.




I initially thought to change it to slams, but thought chocolate biting back better stuck with the semi-humorous theme.  

That said, I don't mind slams at all.



Cleon said:


> Constructs have immunity to poison as standard.




Good point.  Yugoloth leftovers.



Cleon said:


> Resistance to fire and immunity to acid don't sound very appropriate for a creature _*made out of chocolate*_.
> 
> I'd cut them both.




I suppose that's fine, since retrievers lack the usual demon resistances.



Cleon said:


> Finally, I'm thinking you're being a bit literal wanting to make these things Neutral Evil Yugoloths.
> 
> Emezons Chefs aren't neutral evil, so why should only they make malign Cacaodaemons?




I'm OK with unlacing them from yugoloths if we drop the "daemon" part of the name (although that kinda ruins the original pun).  I just found it fun tying 'em to daemons.   I suppose they could just be neutral, and still be yugoloth constructs.   Maybe as a way for the nefarious fiends to get spellcasters in the habit of summoning their kind before fully immersing themselves in casting evil spells?


----------



## Cleon (May 10, 2012)

Shade said:


> I initially thought to change it to slams, but thought chocolate biting back better stuck with the semi-humorous theme.
> 
> That said, I don't mind slams at all.




Well, I have no objection to a bite attack if you prefer it, but slams would suit me better.



Shade said:


> I'm OK with unlacing them from yugoloths if we drop the "daemon" part of the name (although that kinda ruins the original pun).  I just found it fun tying 'em to daemons.   I suppose they could just be neutral, and still be yugoloth constructs.   Maybe as a way for the nefarious fiends to get spellcasters in the habit of summoning their kind before fully immersing themselves in casting evil spells?




Well, I suppose we could call them "cacaofiends" and not have them actually be fiends, since they are a bunch of other "fiends" that are not actually lower plane creatures.

Actually, if they have a similar alignment as their creator/summoner, than maybe we could add a note that the cacaofiends of evil chefs are called cacao_*daemons*_ (Neutral Evil) and good chefs get cacao_*angels*_ (Neutral Good).

However, I can't decide on a decent name for True Neutral cacaofiends - cacao_*rilmani*_ or cacao_*genie*_?


----------



## freyar (May 11, 2012)

Those don't really roll off the tongue the same way "cacaodaemon" does, though.  I kind of like Shade's idea that the yugoloths use them as a tool of corruption, since the original monster/spell sounds kind of evilish.


----------



## Shade (May 11, 2012)

freyar said:


> Those don't really roll off the tongue the same way "cacaodaemon" does, though.  I kind of like Shade's idea that the yugoloths use them as a tool of corruption, since the original monster/spell sounds kind of evilish.




Let's just do that.  That allows us to retain the clever pun for the name, while still allowing for casters of all alignments to summon them.


----------



## Cleon (May 12, 2012)

freyar said:


> Those don't really roll off the tongue the same way "cacaodaemon" does, though.  I kind of like Shade's idea that the yugoloths use them as a tool of corruption, since the original monster/spell sounds kind of evilish.




I'm not seeing anything to indicate they're evil. Being a bit mischievous is a long way from being a minor incarnation of malevolence. They sound like they're no more a fiend than, say, a Sprite is. As I said earlier, 

Hold on, Echohawk's post says they're called cocoa_*demons*_, not daemons, which kind of undermines this yugoloth theory:



Echohawk said:


> *Cocoademon* (Conjuration/Summoning)
> 
> Level: 4
> Range: 1"
> ...


----------



## Shade (May 15, 2012)

Cleon said:


> I'm not seeing anything to indicate they're evil. Being a bit mischievous is a long way from being a minor incarnation of malevolence. They sound like they're no more a fiend than, say, a Sprite is. As I said earlier,




Which is why I argued for a neutral alignment upthread.  



Cleon said:


> Hold on, Echohawk's post says they're called cocoa_*demons*_, not daemons, which kind of undermines this yugoloth theory:




Right, we discussed this upthread.  We decided the name change better fit with the more recent "Cacodaemon" spell, which it appears to be punning.

I feel we're arguing in circles...


----------



## Cleon (May 16, 2012)

Shade said:


> Which is why I argued for a neutral alignment upthread.
> 
> Right, we discussed this upthread.  We decided the name change better fit with the more recent "Cacodaemon" spell, which it appears to be punning.
> 
> I feel we're arguing in circles...




So, are we making them non-yugoloth Neutral Cocoademons then?


----------



## freyar (May 17, 2012)

Cleon said:


> So, are we making them non-yugoloth Neutral Cocoademons then?



I thought Shade and I liked them to be yugolothy construct cacaodaemons -- presumably N -- used to corrupt non-evil casters.  Didn't we?


----------



## Cleon (May 18, 2012)

freyar said:


> I thought Shade and I liked them to be yugolothy construct cacaodaemons -- presumably N -- used to corrupt non-evil casters.  Didn't we?




If they've got the Yugoloth subtype they really should be Evil too, Construct or not, and I don't much like that idea.


----------



## freyar (May 21, 2012)

On the other hand, they are "demon-like," which sounds evil.

Hrmph.  Maybe they should be cacoa-slaad and CN?  We need something to make them vaguely interesting.


----------



## Shade (May 22, 2012)

freyar said:


> I thought Shade and I liked them to be yugolothy construct cacaodaemons -- presumably N -- used to corrupt non-evil casters.  Didn't we?




Yes!



Cleon said:


> If they've got the Yugoloth subtype they really should be Evil too, Construct or not, and I don't much like that idea.




You give us this one, and I'll let you make the nay-churr do whatever horrible extra damage you want those on the interior to take.

Besides, there's precedent here.


----------



## Cleon (May 22, 2012)

Shade said:


> Yes!
> 
> You give us this one, and I'll let you make the nay-churr do whatever horrible extra damage you want those on the interior to take.
> 
> Besides, there's precedent here.




So, just to be clear, are you suggesting something like:*Cocoadaemon*
Tiny Construct (Extraplanar, Yugoloth)
*Alignment:* Always neutral

According to myth, these creatures were created by a yugoloth lord to tempt non-evil casters with their chocolatey deliciousness...​If so, giving them the Yugoloth subtype seems kind of pointless, but if you're both so keen on it I suppose I could meet you halfway....a solar then developed the chococherub, a construct with identical statistics to a cocoadaemon except it has the Angel subtype. If a spellcaster summons both a chococherub and a cocoadaemon, the two constructs will take every opportunity to insult the other and persuade the caster towards their ethical point of view, usually while sitting on the caster's shoulders.​What say you?


----------



## Shade (May 22, 2012)

Cleon said:


> So, just to be clear, are you suggesting something like:*Cocoadaemon*
> Tiny Construct (Extraplanar, Yugoloth)
> *Alignment:* Always neutral
> 
> According to myth, these creatures were created by a yugoloth lord to tempt non-evil casters with their chocolatey deliciousness...​If so, giving them the Yugoloth subtype seems kind of pointless, but if you're both so keen on it I suppose I could meet you halfway....a solar then developed the chococherub, a construct with identical statistics to a cocoadaemon except it has the Angel subtype. If a spellcaster summons both a chococherub and a cocoadaemon, the two constructs will take every opportunity to insult the other and persuade the caster towards their ethical point of view, usually while sitting on the caster's shoulders.​What say you?




If we're going to suggest a "chococherub", then let's just make the cocoadaemon neutral evil  (since good casters have something they can summon).


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## Cleon (May 23, 2012)

Shade said:


> If we're going to suggest a "chococherub", then let's just make the cocoadaemon neutral evil  (since good casters have something they can summon).




I suppose that's alright, although it makes me think we should introduce a true neutral version...

...the cocohomonculi?​


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## Shade (May 24, 2012)

Cleon said:


> I suppose that's alright, although it makes me think we should introduce a true neutral version...
> 
> ...the cocohomonculi?​




That sounds like an excellent Cleon Special (TM).


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## Cleon (May 24, 2012)

Shade said:


> That sounds like an excellent Cleon Special (TM).




It wouldn't take very long to do, since it's just a question of cutting "Good" or "Evil" from the alignment...


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## freyar (May 24, 2012)

Hmm, I like chocodeva better than chococherub.  

We can swap a couple special abilities around, too.


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## Cleon (May 25, 2012)

freyar said:


> Hmm, I like chocodeva better than chococherub.
> 
> We can swap a couple special abilities around, too.




I quite like the alliteration of chococherub, but if you prefer devas we can call them chocodevas and mention they're also called chococherubs in the flavour text.

So, are chocodevas milk chocolate with real cane sugar and cocoadaemon dark chocolate with high-fructose corn syrup?


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## freyar (May 30, 2012)

No, no, devas are good, so they're *dark* chocolate with cane sugar.  The daemons are made of that crappy milk chocolate corn syrup stuff. 

Ready to start?


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## Shade (May 30, 2012)

I too prefer "chocodeva".   Or there's "cocoarchon".


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## freyar (May 30, 2012)

Naww, archons are lawful.  If we use them, we'll need to complete the alignment wheel.  While fun, that might be a bit much.


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## Cleon (May 31, 2012)

freyar said:


> Naww, archons are lawful.  If we use them, we'll need to complete the alignment wheel.  While fun, that might be a bit much.




Chocodeva's acceptable to me. Everyone seems OK with that, so let's use it.


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## freyar (Jun 6, 2012)

Back to the daemon in that case?


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## Cleon (Jun 6, 2012)

freyar said:


> Back to the daemon in that case?




Oh very well.


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## freyar (Jun 7, 2012)

Were we agreed on replacing bite with slams?


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## Cleon (Jun 7, 2012)

freyar said:


> Were we agreed on replacing bite with slams?




I thought we'd already agreed on that.


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## freyar (Jun 11, 2012)

Any other special abilities, or ready for skills and feats?


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## Cleon (Jun 11, 2012)

freyar said:


> Any other special abilities, or ready for skills and feats?




There's nothing about any special abilities in the spell description. We ought to give them a Familiar special ability, I suppose.

As for skills, they like to play pranks, so I guess we'd better make them sneaky and maybe consider a rank or two in Bluff or Sleight of Hand, with maybe a small (+2?) racial bonus.


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## Cleon (Jun 11, 2012)

Before we get too carried away, don't forget we've still got the Organisation to finish off the *Emezon Working Draft*.


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## freyar (Jun 11, 2012)

How about a Delicious special ability -- when they die, anyone within X ft has to make a Will save or start eating them?  And perhaps they're poisonous or affect alignment in some way when you eat them?


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## Cleon (Jun 11, 2012)

freyar said:


> How about a Delicious special ability -- when they die, anyone within X ft has to make a Will save or start eating them?  And perhaps they're poisonous or affect alignment in some way when you eat them?




Fattening - any living creature who eats a chocodaemon grows so obese  they move as if their encumbrance was one grade worse than it actually  is (e.g. a creature in light armor or carrying a light load moves as a  medium encumbered creature. This effect lasts until the subject goes on a  strict diet for X days.


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## freyar (Jun 11, 2012)

Excellent!  We should really use that!


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## Cleon (Jun 12, 2012)

freyar said:


> Excellent!  We should really use that!




Well I wasn't being serious, but then I suspect the author(s) didn't intend Ze Chef to be terribly serious.


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## freyar (Jun 14, 2012)

I don't think the cacao/cocoa-daemon is too serious either.

Regarding the org, we wanted to revisit the amazon org also.  We had previously

Organization: Solitary, party (10-20 plus 1 leader of 5th-6th level, and 1 emezon cleric, adept or wizard of 2nd-4th level), party (20-50 plus 1-4 leaders of 5th-6th level, 1 captain of 7th-8th level, and 1-4 emezon clerics, adepts or wizards of 2nd-4th level) or clan (30-100 plus 4-8 leaders of 5th-6th level, 1 captain of 7th-8th level, 1 queen of 9th-12th level, 30-100 emezon 1st level warriors, 60-200 noncombatants, 2-5 emezon clerics, adepts or wizards of 2nd-4th level, and 1 emezon cleric or wizard of 4th-8th level).

I think it makes much more sense if there are fewer emezons with class levels, and I also don't think there should be many in the smaller orgs (like party).  Mostly emezons should be in clans (or subgroups of the clan sitting around at home).


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## Cleon (Jun 14, 2012)

freyar said:


> I don't think the cacao/cocoa-daemon is too serious either.
> 
> Regarding the org, we wanted to revisit the amazon org also.  We had previously
> 
> ...




If I remember correctly that was a pretty faithful interpretation of the original Monstrous Compendium Amazon, which had male clerics and low-level warriors. Those are probably "normal" male humanoids rather than Emezons, though, which suggests it would be easier to have a separate Organisation for the Emezons to represent an Amazon & Emezon clan.


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## freyar (Jun 15, 2012)

How about we make the emezon warriors experts or else regular males and tone down the levels of teh emezon casters?


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## Cleon (Jun 15, 2012)

freyar said:


> How about we make the emezon warriors experts or else regular males and tone down the levels of teh emezon casters?




Why don't you write up a draft Organization so we have something to argue extensively over debate in a reasonable fashion.


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## freyar (Jun 27, 2012)

For the amazon, how about this?

Organization: Solitary, party (10-20 plus 1 leader of 5th-6th level, and 1 emezon cleric, adept or wizard of 1st-2nd level), party (20-50 plus 1-4 leaders of 5th-6th level, 1 captain of 7th-8th level, and 1-4 emezon clerics, adepts or wizards of 1st-2nd level) or clan (30-100 plus 4-8 leaders of 5th-6th level, 1 captain of 7th-8th level, 1 queen of 9th-12th level, 30-100 male 1st level warriors, 60-200 noncombatants, 2-5 emezon clerics, adepts or wizards of 1st-2nd level, and 1 emezon cleric or wizard of 2nd-5th level).


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## Cleon (Jun 27, 2012)

freyar said:


> For the amazon, how about this?
> 
> Organization: Solitary, party (10-20 plus 1 leader of 5th-6th level, and 1 emezon cleric, adept or wizard of 1st-2nd level), party (20-50 plus 1-4 leaders of 5th-6th level, 1 captain of 7th-8th level, and 1-4 emezon clerics, adepts or wizards of 1st-2nd level) or clan (30-100 plus 4-8 leaders of 5th-6th level, 1 captain of 7th-8th level, 1 queen of 9th-12th level, 30-100 male 1st level warriors, 60-200 noncombatants, 2-5 emezon clerics, adepts or wizards of 1st-2nd level, and 1 emezon cleric or wizard of 2nd-5th level).




Looks fine.

I'm wondering whether it wouldn't be better to replace "cleric, adept or wizard" with "spellcaster", but I slightly prefer it with defined classes.


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## freyar (Jun 29, 2012)

In that case, let's go with that.  I guess we'll need to edit that into homebrews eventually.

No org is listed in the original emezon text.  Maybe something like:
Family (1 plus amazon and 1-4 children), nursery (1-3 emezon experts and 6-24 children), clan (20-100 emezon experts of varying levels and 2-5 emezon clerics, adepts or wizards of 1st-2nd level, and 1 emezon cleric or wizard of 2nd-5th level plus 40-100 other noncombatants and 36-110 amazons including leaders).


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## Cleon (Jun 29, 2012)

freyar said:


> In that case, let's go with that.  I guess we'll need to edit that into homebrews eventually.




I've updated the *Amazon Working Draft* with the revised organization.

It had two groups called a "party" so I renamed the larger one, which seemed to be a "raiding party" in the original so it's now an "expedition".

Do you think she's done now?



freyar said:


> No org is listed in the original emezon text.  Maybe something like:
> 
> Family (1 plus amazon and 1-4 children), nursery (1-3 emezon experts and 6-24 children), clan (20-100 emezon experts of varying levels and 2-5 emezon clerics, adepts or wizards of 1st-2nd level, and 1 emezon cleric or wizard of 2nd-5th level plus 40-100 other noncombatants and 36-110 amazons including leaders).




I think the clan should use the same numbers as the regular amazon clan,  but with the male warriors and noncombatants replaced by emezons.

Not sure about having a "nursery" in the organization. Wouldn't that be part of a a larger group, such as a clan? Surely it makes more sense calling the intermediate group a "settlement" or something like that?

Also, the original Emezon has a No. Appearing of 1-4, so I'd like that number in the Org somewhere.

Hmm, I think I'll also tweak the emezon spellcaster levels to be closer to the amazons' levels.

*Organization:* Solitary, family (1-4 plus 1-3 amazons and 0-4 children), settlement *[?]* (10-20 plus 5-40 children and 1 cleric, adept or wizard of 1st-2nd level; plus 10-20 amazons and 1 amazon leader of 5th-6th level) or clan (30-100 plus 60-200 non-combatants, 2-5 clerics, adepts, or wizards  of 2nd-8th level, and 1 cleric or wizard of 7th-12th level; plus 30-100  amazons, 4-8 amazon leaders of 5th-6th level, 1 amazon captain of  7th-8th level, and 1  amazon queen of 9th-12th level).


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## freyar (Jun 29, 2012)

That works basically.  I was aiming for the same thing without typing out all the amazon stuff again.  But I'd prefer the family to have only one amazon.  Somehow I imagine they'd be polyandrous.


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## Cleon (Jun 30, 2012)

freyar said:


> That works basically.  I was aiming for the same thing without typing out all the amazon stuff again.  But I'd prefer the family to have only one amazon.  Somehow I imagine they'd be polyandrous.




They could be polyandrous with sisters who share...


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## freyar (Jul 3, 2012)

Let's leave that kinky stuff for the drow, k?


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## Cleon (Jul 3, 2012)

freyar said:


> Let's leave that kinky stuff for the drow, k?




Sometimes you're no fun at all. 

I guess I can live with that, so shall I the update the *Emezon Working Draft*     with:

*Organization:* Solitary, family (1-4 plus 1 amazons and 0-4 children), settlement  (10-20 plus 5-40 children and 1 cleric, adept or wizard of 1st-2nd  level; plus 10-20 amazons and 1 amazon leader of 5th-6th level) or clan  (30-100 plus 60-200 non-combatants, 2-5 clerics, adepts, or wizards  of  2nd-8th level, and 1 cleric or wizard of 7th-12th level; plus 30-100   amazons, 4-8 amazon leaders of 5th-6th level, 1 amazon captain of   7th-8th level, and 1  amazon queen of 9th-12th level)

Anything else to do?


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## freyar (Jul 6, 2012)

That looks good to me.  We can also get rid of the red question marks.

On to the cocoadaemon and chocodeva?


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## Cleon (Jul 6, 2012)

freyar said:


> That looks good to me.  We can also get rid of the red question marks.
> 
> On to the cocoadaemon and chocodeva?




We've still got domain access for Emazon clerics to finalize. It currently has "An emezon cleric has access to two of the following domains: Culinary,  X, Y, or Z. [Charm?, Community?, Protection?, Magic?, Liberation?  Artifice?]"

I'm liking "Charm, Community, Culinary, and Protection".


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## freyar (Jul 7, 2012)

Agreed, those seem the best.  I'd also like to change the "cocoadaemon" entry in the Culinary domain to "cocoadaemon/chocodeva" to let good emezons use it.


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## Cleon (Jul 7, 2012)

freyar said:


> Agreed, those seem the best.  I'd also like to change the "cocoadaemon" entry in the Culinary domain to "cocoadaemon/chocodeva" to let good emezons use it.




That'd be OK by me. I suppose we could have negative energy channelers get _cocoadaemon_ spell from the Culinary Domain and positive energy channelers the _chocodeva_ version.


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## freyar (Jul 11, 2012)

I was thinking of one spell "cocoadaemon/chocodeva" which has good or evil descriptors depending on which you summon.


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## Cleon (Jul 11, 2012)

freyar said:


> I was thinking of one spell "cocoadaemon/chocodeva" which has good or evil descriptors depending on which you summon.




That would be the _sensible_ solution. Most 3E spells that come in different alignment flavour tend to be separate spells, but the summoning spells are the main exception - as in "When you use a summoning spell to summon an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it is a spell of that type."

The only non-summoning spell I can think of offhand with variable alignment descriptors is _align weapon_. Are there any others?

Anyhow, I guess we need a couple of Working Drafts...


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## Cleon (Jul 11, 2012)

*Yugoloth, Cacoadaemon Working Draft*

*Cocoadaemon*
Tiny Construct (Evil, Extraplanar, Yugoloth)
Hit Dice: 3d10 (16 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (+2 Dex, +2 size), touch 14, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/–7
Attack: Slam +3 melee (1d4–1)
Full Attack: Slam +3 melee (1d4–1)
Space/Reach: 2½ ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Delicious temptation
Special Qualities: Chocolate healing, construct traits, damage reduction 5/good, darkvision  60 ft., fattening, immunity to acid, resistance to cold 10, electricity  10, telepathy 100 ft.
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +5, Will +2
Abilities: Str 8, Dex 15, Con —, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 13
Skills: Bluff +6, Hide +7, Intimidate +3, Move Silently +6, Listen +3, Spot +3
Feats: Lightning Reflexes, Persuasive
Environment: Bleak Eternity of Gehenna
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral evil
Advancement: 4–6 HD (Tiny)
Level Adjustment: +2 (cohort)

_A foot-tall creature seemingly molded from tantalizing milky chocolate. It  has the form of an obese humanoid with little horns, a forked tail, and  an expression of leering cunning. A __pair of __ridiculously small __batlike __wings __sprout from its shoulders, but these __appendages seem purely ornamental._

A cocoadaemon is an extraplanar construct formed from living chocolate.  According to myth, cocoadaemons were created by a yugoloth lord to tempt   non-evil casters with their chocolatey deliciousness. A solar then   developed a construct with similar attributes and the Angel subtype to   oppose the cocoadaemon, the chocodeva. If a spellcaster summons both a   chocodeva and a cocoadaemon, the two constructs will  take every   opportunity to insult the other while seeking to persuade the caster  towards their  ethical point of view, usually while sitting on their  summoner's shoulders.

Like other extraplanar constructs, such as retrievers, cocoadaemons and   chocodevas are built by outsiders, not constructed by mortals. They can   be summoned to the Material Plane by the _cocoadaemon/chocodeva_ spell (see below).

A cocoadaemon is typically a foot tall and weighs 3 pounds.

Cocoadaemons speak Common, Abyssal, Celestial and Infernal.

* Combat*
Cocoadaemons are weak fighters, so  the self-serving creatures usually  hang back out of battle. If they must fight, they often use their  Delicious Temptation special attack to provoke an opponent into chasing  them, then try to lead their opponent into a vulnerable position. A  cocoadaemon may encourage an enemy to bite them, so their opponent will  be hampered by the yugoloth's Fattening ability.

*Chocolate Healing (Ex):* A cocoadaemon or chocodeva which  eats 4 ounces  of the finest chocolate (cost 1 gp) gains natural healing  for the  following 24 hours, allowing it to recover from its injuries  as it if  were a living creature. Furthermore, specially prepared  chocolate  remedies can provide a cocoadaemon with first aid, long term  care and  wound treatment as per the Heal skill, except they require  Profession  (cooking) checks instead of Heal checks and expend 2 gp  worth of  chocolate products per application.  Chocolate healing does  not allow a  cocoadaemon/chocodeva to benefit from curative magic, such  as a _cure  light wounds_ spell.  It only grants "natural healing" for the duration.     

*Delicious Temptation (Su):* As a standard action, a cocoadaemon  can make itself look delicious to a single living creature within 30  feet. The opponent must succeed at a DC 12 Will save or spend the next 2d10  rounds trying to bite the cocoadaemon. If the creature does not have  bite as a natural weapon, this attack does lethal damage equal to an  unarmed strike (1d3 plus Str modifier for a Medium creature, 1d2+Str for Small, etc). As soon as  the opponent successfully bites the cocoadaemon, the Delicious  Temptation affect ends and the opponent is affected by the yugoloth's  Fattening special ability (since they just ate part of the cocoadaemon). The save DC is Charisma-based.

* Fattening (Su):* Any living creature who eats even a small part of a  chocodaemon grows so obese they move as if their encumbrance was one  grade worse than it actually is (e.g. a creature in light armor or  carrying a light load moves as a medium encumbered creature. This effect  lasts until the subject goes on a strict diet for 3 days; in order to  complete the diet, the victim must make a DC 15 Will save at the start  of the 3 day period to avoid giving into culinary temptations.  In the  event of a failed save, the victim can retry each day.

*Cocoadaemon/Chocodeva*
_ Conjuration/Summoning (Evil or Good_ [See Text]_)_
Level: Clr 4, Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M, F
Casting Time: 3 hours
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One cocoadaemon or chocodeva
Duration: Permanent until dispelled
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

With this spell, the caster conjures a foot tall daemon- or angel-like    creature made of chocolate, which can obey simple instructions from its    creator (such as carrying light objects, stealing a small item,   sounding  an alarm in case of an unexpected visit, etc.). Cocoadaemons  are of  low intelligence and, though loyal to their summoner, they like   practical  jokes and causing mischief (but hate hot temperatures).   Chocodevas, in contrast, are merry beings with a protective attitude    toward their summoners, although they tend to nag creatures whose  behavior   they consider immoral.

The _cocoadaemon/chocodeva_ spell is an Evil spell when used to summon a cocoadaemon and a Good spell when used to summon a chocodeva.

_Material Component:_ Three pounds of the finest chocolate flavored with rare spices, costing 500 gold pieces.

_Focus:_   A silver chocolate mold costing 500 gold pieces. To summon a   cocoadaemon the mold must be in the shape of an evil outsider, a   chocodeva requires a mold shaped like a good outsider.

_Originally appeared in Polyhedron 23 (1984)._


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## Cleon (Jul 11, 2012)

*Angel, Chocodeva Working Draft*

*Chocodeva*
Tiny Construct (Angel, Extraplanar, Good)
Hit Dice: 3d10 (16 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (+2 Dex, +2 size), touch 14, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/–7
Attack: Slam +3 melee (1d4–1)
Full Attack: Slam +3 melee (1d4–1)
Space/Reach: 2½ ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Chocolaty goodness
Special Qualities: Chocolate healing, construct traits, damage reduction 5/evil, darkvision  60 ft., immunity to acid, resistance to cold 10, electricity  10, sickeningly sweet, telepathy 100 ft.
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +5, Will +2
Abilities: Str 8, Dex 15, Con —, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 13
Skills: Diplomacy +6, Hide +7, Move Silently +6, Listen +3, Sense Motive +3, Spot +3
Feats: Lightning Reflexes, Negotiator
Environment: A good-aligned plane
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral good
Advancement: 4–6 HD (Tiny)
Level Adjustment: +2 (cohort)

_A foot-tall creature seemingly molded from delectable dark chocolate. It  has the form of an rotund humanoid wearing __a toga-like garment, __a halo, and an expression of blissful contentment. A pair of ridiculously small feathery wings sprout from its shoulders, __but these __appendages seem __purely ornamental._

 A chocodeva is an extraplanar construct formed from living chocolate  that strives to encourage mortals to do good works. Emezon legend says  they were invented by a solar to counter the corrupting influence of  evil chocolate beings called cocoadaemons. If a spellcaster summons both  a  chocodeva and a cocoadaemon, the two constructs will  take every   opportunity to insult the other while seeking to persuade the caster   towards their  ethical point of view, usually while sitting on their  summoner's  shoulders.

Like other extraplanar constructs, such as retrievers, cocoadaemons and   chocodevas are built by outsiders, not constructed by mortals. They can   be summoned to the Material Plane by the _cocoadaemon/chocodeva_ spell (see below).

A chocodeva is typically a foot tall and weighs 3 pounds.

Chocodevas speak Common, Abyssal, Celestial and Infernal.

*Combat*
 Chocodevas are weak fighters, so they usually stay out of melee,  offering advice to their summoners.  If the tide of battle turns against  their allies, they offer themselves in sacrifice to aid their friends.

*Chocolate Healing (Ex):* A cocoadaemon or chocodeva which   eats 4 ounces  of the finest chocolate (cost 1 gp) gains natural healing   for the  following 24 hours, allowing it to recover from its injuries   as it if  were a living creature. Furthermore, specially prepared   chocolate  remedies can provide a cocoadaemon with first aid, long term   care and  wound treatment as per the Heal skill, except they require   Profession  (cooking) checks instead of Heal checks and expend 2 gp   worth of  chocolate products per application.  Chocolate healing does   not allow a  cocoadaemon/chocodeva to benefit from curative magic, such   as a _cure  light wounds_ spell.  It only grants "natural healing" for the duration.

*Chocolaty Goodness (Su**):* Any living creature that takes a good-sized bite out of a chocodeva  gains a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls and saves against fear effects  plus 1d8 temporary hit points for a period of 1 hour.  The duration  stacks if a creature eats more than one    bite.  The chocodeva takes either 1d6  points of damage or the creature's  bite   attack damage dice   without any Strength  modifier, whichever is  higher. However,  if the   chocodeva disapproves of  the creature that bites it, the creature  must   succeed at a DC12  Fortitude save against the chocodeva's Sickeningly   Sweet quality (see   below) or be sickened and gain no benefit from   Chocolaty Goodness.

*Sickeningly Sweet (Su):* Any creature that eats (or makes a successful bite attack against) a chocodeva without its permission must succeed at a DC 12 Fortitude save or be sickened for 1 hour. The duration is cumulative for multiple bites. A creature affected by sickening sweetness loses any Chocolaty Goodness benefits (see above) it may have received. The save DC is Charisma-based.

*Cocoadaemon/Chocodeva*
_ Conjuration/Summoning (Evil or Good_ [See Text]_)_
Level: Clr 4, Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M, F
Casting Time: 3 hours
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One cocoadaemon or chocodeva
Duration: Permanent until dispelled
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

With this spell, the caster conjures a foot tall daemon- or angel-like     creature made of chocolate, which can obey simple instructions from  its    creator (such as carrying light objects, stealing a small item,    sounding  an alarm in case of an unexpected visit, etc.). Cocoadaemons   are of  low intelligence and, though loyal to their summoner, they like    practical  jokes and causing mischief (but hate hot temperatures).    Chocodevas, in contrast, are merry beings with a protective attitude     toward their summoners, although they tend to nag creatures whose   behavior   they consider immoral.

The _cocoadaemon/chocodeva_ spell is an Evil spell when used to summon a cocoadaemon and a Good spell when used to summon a chocodeva.

_Material Component:_ Three pounds of the finest chocolate flavored with rare spices, costing 500 gold pieces.

_Focus:_   A silver chocolate mold costing 500 gold pieces. To  summon a   cocoadaemon the mold must be in the shape of an evil  outsider, a   chocodeva requires a mold shaped like a good outsider.

_Originally appeared in Polyhedron 23 (1984)._


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## freyar (Jul 16, 2012)

Fortunately, we have a summoning spell.   But note that the name should be "cocoadaemon," not "cocoademon."

The basic abilities look fine.  But why different immunities?  You also need to change the deva's subtype from Yugoloth to Angel.

I think I prefer slams to bites.

To go with fattening, it would be good for the daemon to have some kind of ability to coerce people to eat it.  Conversely, it would be nice for the deva to have a self-sacrifice ability that gives people who eat it some kind of morale bonus or something.


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## Cleon (Jul 17, 2012)

freyar said:


> Fortunately, we have a summoning spell.   But note that the name should be "cocoadaemon," not "cocoademon."




The spell was called _cocoademon_ in the original Zee Chef, according to Echohawk's *post*.



freyar said:


> The basic abilities look fine.  But why different immunities?  You also need to change the deva's subtype from Yugoloth to Angel.




They should be the same, but it lost the strikeout when I copy-and-pasted it. That's also what caused the chocodeva's Yugoloth error.

It also needs DR/evil instead of DR/good.



freyar said:


> I think I prefer slams to bites.




So do I.

Shall I update it with slam and permanent removal of the fire resistance and poison immunity?



freyar said:


> To go with fattening, it would be good for the daemon to have some kind of ability to coerce people to eat it.  Conversely, it would be nice for the deva to have a self-sacrifice ability that gives people who eat it some kind of morale bonus or something.




Great minds think alike! I was thinking something like that, too.

However, I was also thinking that rather than fattening an opponent, the Chocodeva's defense is sickening sweetness...

I also think we should be clear an opponent only needs to eat a small part of the Cocoadaemon to be affected.

How's this:

*Delicious Temptation (Su):* As a standard action, a cocoadaemon can make itself look delicious to a single living creature within X feet. The opponent must succeed at a DC Y Will save or spend the next Z rounds trying to bite the cocoadaemon. If the creature does not have bite as a natural weapon, this attack does lethal damage equal to an unarmed strike (1d2 for a Small creature, 1d3 for Medium). As soon as the opponent successfully bites the cocoadaemon, the Delicious Temptation affect ends and the opponent is affected by the yugoloth's Fattening special ability (since they just ate part of the cocoadaemon).

*Chocolately Goodness (Su):* X times a day, a chocodeva can ???

*Sickeningly Sweet (Su?):* Any creature that eats a chocodeva without its permission must succeed at a DC X Fortitude save or be sickened for X *[*1 hour? 2d12 minutes?*]*.

Amending *Chocodaemon Working Draft*.

Amending *Chocodeva Working Draft*.


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## freyar (Jul 17, 2012)

I thought we agreed to change the name of the spell to go with the creature names.  And to pun more on the cacodaemon.

I agree on the "small part of" for Fattening.  Su works for me.

Let's modify as follows: 
Sickeningly Sweet (Su): Any creature that eats (or makes a successful bite attack against) a chocodeva without its permission must succeed at a DC X Fortitude save or be sickened for X [1 hour? 2d12 minutes?].
I'd go with an hour duration and make the Fort save Con based.  

Finally, for Chocolaty Goodness (I'd make it an adjective, not adverb), why not make it an ultimate sacrifice?  If it voluntarily destroys itself, eating the chocodeva provides the equivalent of a bless spell for X hours and a cure X wounds for up to X characters?


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## Cleon (Jul 18, 2012)

freyar said:


> I thought we agreed to change the name of the spell to go with the creature names.  And to pun more on the cacodaemon.




I don't remember us agreeing so. Do you want to have a separate _chocodeva_ spell then?



freyar said:


> I agree on the "small part of" for Fattening.  Su works for me.
> 
> Let's modify as follows:
> Sickeningly Sweet (Su): Any creature that eats (or makes a successful bite attack against) a chocodeva without its permission must succeed at a DC X Fortitude save or be sickened for X [1 hour? 2d12 minutes?].
> I'd go with an hour duration and make the Fort save Con based.




An hour's fine, but I'm thinking we should make it Cha-based and raise their Charisma. We're using a trickster/persuader concept for them, so Cha 7 seems a bit off.



freyar said:


> Finally, for Chocolaty Goodness (I'd make it an adjective, not adverb), why not make it an ultimate sacrifice?  If it voluntarily destroys itself, eating the chocodeva provides the equivalent of a bless spell for X hours and a cure X wounds for up to X characters?




I was thinking you would nibble it a bit and get an _aid_ spell. Maybe let it do both, so you get more if you eat the whole thing?

I'm also tempted to have the benefits apply to _*anyone*_ who eats a Chocodeva, so its enemies might try to eat it and hope they make the save vs sickening sweetness.

Oh, and changing it to Chocolaty is fine by me.


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## freyar (Jul 18, 2012)

Well, we thought we were punning on the cacodaemon monster and spell, so it makes the most sense to rename both spell and monster to that (see posts 963, 966, & 968).  I prefer to have a single spell of the form cocoadaemon/chocodeva, so there is a single spell that can have either good or evil descriptor according to which construct you summon.  Presumably characters of a given good/evil alignment only summon the appropriate construct.

Boost Cha to 13 and make the save Cha-based?

Oh, aid is basically bless plus cure light wounds, almost.  Sure.  

I'm fine with letting anyone get the benefit, but I also agree that non-allies risk the sickening.  

I'm not sure about if someone eats the whole thing.  Maybe it extends the duration?  I definitely think there should be a max total number of eaters/total duration.

Perhaps something like this:

*Chocolaty Goodness (Su):* A chocodeva can voluntarily destroy itself for its allies.  Up to X creatures can eat a bite of a chocodeva to receive the effects of an _aid_ spell for X hours.  The duration stacks if a creature eats more than one bite.  However, only creatures designated by the chocodeva before its destruction can eat it without risking the effects of its Sickeningly Sweet quality (see below).


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## Cleon (Jul 19, 2012)

freyar said:


> Well, we thought we were punning on the cacodaemon monster and spell, so it makes the most sense to rename both spell and monster to that (see posts 963, 966, & 968).  I prefer to have a single spell of the form cocoadaemon/chocodeva, so there is a single spell that can have either good or evil descriptor according to which construct you summon.  Presumably characters of a given good/evil alignment only summon the appropriate construct.
> 
> Boost Cha to 13 and make the save Cha-based?




A _cocoadaemon/chocodeva_ spell and Charisma 13 is fine by me. Shall I update?



freyar said:


> Oh, aid is basically bless plus cure light wounds, almost.  Sure.
> 
> I'm fine with letting anyone get the benefit, but I also agree that non-allies risk the sickening.
> 
> ...




Looks a good start.

We need to specify how much damage the chocodeva takes choco-aiding someone, and how difficult that damage is to cure. If it can _aid_ someone for X hours at the cost of a single HP damage it'd seem unbalanced, especially if it can be healed by a low-level spell.

I suggest making it "starvation" type damage, which is very difficult to cure, and have the chocodeva regain it by resting and eating the finest chocolate!

Come to think of it, maybe that should be just how these creatures heal *any* damage. As constructs they don't heal normally.


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## freyar (Jul 19, 2012)

Please do update, always helps.

I've been going with the idea that the chocodeva has to sacrifice itself, ie, die, for the beneficial effects to work.  I take it you don't like that.  But I suppose we could have a bite be 1d6 hp of damage even for "nonlethal biters" like humans.  Then it will roughly feed 4 people if it starts out fully healed.

I do like the idea of healing by eating chocolate!


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## Cleon (Jul 20, 2012)

freyar said:


> Please do update, always helps.




Okay then.

Updating *Cocoadaemon Working Draft*.

Updating *Chocodeva Working Draft*.

I revised the Chocolaty Goodness and Sickeningly Sweet abilities to tidy  up some loose ends. I made them both cumulative, and gave a damage  value to match the Cocoadaemon's Fattening.

*Chocolaty Goodness (Su**?**):* Any living creature that takes a good-sized bite out of a chocodeva receives the effects of an _aid_  spell for 1 hour.  The duration stacks if a creature eats more than one  bite. The chocodeva takes damage equal to the creature's bite attack  (without any Strength modifier) or, if the creature does not have  bite  as a natural weapon, lethal damage equal to an  unarmed strike (1d2 for a  Small  creature, 1d3 for Medium).

 However,  if the chocodeva disapproves of the creature that bites it, the creature  must save against the effects of its Sickeningly Sweet quality (see  below) or be sickened and gain no benefit from Chocolaty Goodness.

*Sickeningly Sweet (Su?):* Any creature  that eats (or makes a successful bite attack against) a chocodeva  without its permission must succeed at a DC 12 Fortitude save or be  sickened for 1 hour. The duration is cumulative for multiple bites. A  creature affected by sickening sweetness loses any Chocolaty Goodness  benefits (see above) it may have received. The save DC is  Charisma-based.



freyar said:


> I've been going with the idea that the chocodeva  has to sacrifice itself, ie, die, for the beneficial effects to work.  I  take it you don't like that.  But I suppose we could have a bite be 1d6  hp of damage even for "nonlethal biters" like humans.  Then it will  roughly feed 4 people if it starts out fully healed.




It's currently equal to unarmed strike, which means a single cocoademon is enough for 16 creatures up to Small size (an ounce or two apiece?), 8 Medium-sized creatures, 6 Large, 4 Huge and so on.

That seems a bit high, now you mention it. Maybe I should set it at a base of 1d6 for Medium "biters" (or bite damage if higher)?

*Chocolaty Goodness 2 (Su**?**):* Any living creature that takes a good-sized bite out of a chocodeva receives the effects of an _aid_  spell (caster level *X*?) for 1 hour.  The duration stacks if a creature eats more than one  bite. The chocodeva takes 1d6 damage or the creature's bite attack dice without any Strength modifier, if that is higher. However,  if the chocodeva disapproves of the creature that bites it, the creature  must succeed at a DC12 Fortitude save against the chocodeva's Sickeningly Sweet quality (see  below) or be sickened and gain no benefit from Chocolaty Goodness.



freyar said:


> I do like the idea of healing by eating chocolate!




Yes, we should write something up.


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## freyar (Jul 20, 2012)

Well, part of me likes the unarmed strike solution, but I agree that the 1d6 bite damage makes the numbers work better.  Hmmm.  It's not really a normal unarmed strike, and chocolate is more bitable than a normal creature, so let's just go with take 2 there.  Yes, I agree with Su on both of these.

We should make the same change to the damage in Delicious Temptation for the daemon.


Chocolate Healing (Ex): A cocoadaemon or chocodeva which eats X ounces of chocolate heals 1d8? hp.


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## Cleon (Jul 21, 2012)

freyar said:


> Well, part of me likes the unarmed strike solution, but I agree that the 1d6 bite damage makes the numbers work better.  Hmmm.  It's not really a normal unarmed strike, and chocolate is more bitable than a normal creature, so let's just go with take 2 there.  Yes, I agree with Su on both of these.




So do I.

Updating *Chocodeva Working Draft*.



freyar said:


> We should make the same change to the damage in Delicious Temptation for the daemon.




I disagree. The cocoadaemon is being attacked, so it's getting its attacker's Strength bonus. It's not as "sacrificial" as the 'deva.

Also cocoadaemons are made of nasty, hard chocolate that's more difficult to take bites out of. 



freyar said:


> Chocolate Healing (Ex): A cocoadaemon or chocodeva which eats X ounces of chocolate heals 1d8? hp.




That would let it heal as many times as it likes, giving the Chef effectively unlimited _aid_ uses just from having a few tons of chocolate.

I was thinking more if it eats chocolate it get to heal at the same rate as a living creature's normal healing. Maybe if the chocolate is specially prepared and presented - a Craft (cookery) check? - while the chocospirit is in a kitchen it's the equivalent of Long-Term Care with the Heal skill (e.g. twice the normal healing rate).


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## freyar (Jul 21, 2012)

Then let's just be slightly redundant and specify that the cocoadaemon takes 1d3+Str damage from Medium unarmed bites, etc.

Hmmm.  
Chocolate Healing (Ex): A cocoadaemon or chocodeva which eats X ounces of chocolate heals hp damage as a living creature for the following 24 hours.  If the chocolate was specially prepared (the chef succeeded at a DC 15 Profession (cooking) check), the construct heals at twice the normal rate.


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## Cleon (Jul 21, 2012)

freyar said:


> Then let's just be slightly redundant and specify that the cocoadaemon takes 1d3+Str damage from Medium unarmed bites, etc.




As you like.

Updating *Cocoadaemon Working Draft*.



freyar said:


> Chocolate Healing (Ex): A cocoadaemon or chocodeva which eats X ounces  of chocolate heals hp damage as a living creature for the following 24  hours.  If the chocolate was specially prepared (the chef succeeded at a  DC 15 Profession (cooking) check), the construct heals at twice the  normal rate.




I'd prefer to quote the "Long-Term Care" option and "natural healing", since those are the terms used in SRD healing. It also also need to include how is affects healing spells.

*Chocolate Healing (Ex):* A cocoadaemon or chocodeva which eats X ounces  of the finest chocolate (cost X) it gains natural healing for the following 24  hours, allowing it to recover from its injuries as it if were a living creature. Furthermore, specially prepared chocolate remedies can provide a cocoadaemon with first aid, long term care and wound treatment as per the Heal spell, except they require Profession (cooking) checks instead of Heal checks and expend Y worth of chocolate products per application.

For the cure spells, I'd add either:

Chocolate healing does not allow a cocoadaemon to benefit from curative magic, such as a _cure light wounds_ spell. it only grants "natural healing" for the duration.

During the period of chocolate healing, the cocoadaemon can also benefit from curative magic such as a _cure light wounds_ spell as if it were a living creature.

Depending on whether we want them to get cure spell or not. I'm currently leaning towards not.


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## freyar (Jul 24, 2012)

I can go with that.  There's a "Heal spell" that should be "Heal skill," but otherwise this is pretty good.  I also lean toward no cure spells.  A good day's meals at an inn is 5sp and common is 3sp, so how about 3sp for natural healing and 5sp per day for long term care.


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## Cleon (Jul 24, 2012)

freyar said:


> I can go with that.  There's a "Heal spell" that should be "Heal skill," but otherwise this is pretty good.  I also lean toward no cure spells.  A good day's meals at an inn is 5sp and common is 3sp, so how about 3sp for natural healing and 5sp per day for long term care.




Seems a bit cheap. A healer's kit is 50 gp for 10 uses, or 5 gp per use.

Admittedly, that includes a +2 circumstance bonus, but it suggests we should be aiming for a "gold piece" scale.

Perhaps 1 gp for natural healing and 2 gp for long term care?


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## freyar (Jul 25, 2012)

Fair enough.  I'm arbitrarily picking 8 oz of chocolate, but I don't mind adjusting that.

Chocolate Healing (Ex): A cocoadaemon or chocodeva which eats 8 ounces of the finest chocolate (cost 1gp) it gains natural healing for the following 24 hours, allowing it to recover from its injuries as it if were a living creature. Furthermore, specially prepared chocolate remedies can provide a cocoadaemon with first aid, long term care and wound treatment as per the Heal spell, except they require Profession (cooking) checks instead of Heal checks and expend 2 gp worth of chocolate products per application.  Chocolate healing does not allow a cocoadaemon/chocodeva to benefit from curative magic, such as a cure light wounds spell.  It only grants "natural healing" for the duration.


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## Cleon (Jul 25, 2012)

freyar said:


> Fair enough.  I'm arbitrarily picking 8 oz of chocolate, but I don't mind adjusting that.
> 
> Chocolate Healing (Ex): A cocoadaemon or chocodeva which eats 8 ounces of the finest chocolate (cost 1gp) it gains natural healing for the following 24 hours, allowing it to recover from its injuries as it if were a living creature. Furthermore, specially prepared chocolate remedies can provide a cocoadaemon with first aid, long term care and wound treatment as per the Heal spell, except they require Profession (cooking) checks instead of Heal checks and expend 2 gp worth of chocolate products per application.  Chocolate healing does not allow a cocoadaemon/chocodeva to benefit from curative magic, such as a cure light wounds spell.  It only grants "natural healing" for the duration.




Dang it, where did those errors slip in? I could have sworn I typed Heal *skill*.

8 ounces seems rather a lot if the creature itself only weighs a pound!

Maybe halve it to four?

*Chocolate Healing (Ex):* A cocoadaemon or chocodeva which eats 4 ounces  of the finest chocolate (cost 1 gp) gains natural healing for the  following 24 hours, allowing it to recover from its injuries as it if  were a living creature. Furthermore, specially prepared chocolate  remedies can provide a cocoadaemon with first aid, long term care and  wound treatment as per the Heal skill, except they require Profession  (cooking) checks instead of Heal checks and expend 2 gp worth of  chocolate products per application.  Chocolate healing does not allow a  cocoadaemon/chocodeva to benefit from curative magic, such as a _cure  light wounds_ spell.  It only grants "natural healing" for the duration.


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## freyar (Jul 26, 2012)

4 oz is ok, but where do you get 1 lb?  I don't see a weight in the working drafts, and the spell lists 3 lb.


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## Cleon (Jul 27, 2012)

freyar said:


> 4 oz is ok, but where do you get 1 lb?  I don't see a weight in the working drafts, and the spell lists 3 lb.




Hmm, for some reason I remembered it saying 1 pound in the spell, not 3.

In that case I'd be OK increasing the weight to half a pound, if you still prefer that.


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## freyar (Jul 28, 2012)

It doesn't matter too much to me.  I guess 1 gp seems like enough for 8 oz.


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## Cleon (Jul 28, 2012)

freyar said:


> It doesn't matter too much to me.  I guess 1 gp seems like enough for 8 oz.




So shall I update the working draft with the latest iteration of Chocolate Healing, or change it to 8 ounces?


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## freyar (Jul 30, 2012)

4oz will work.

3 days for the strict diet in Fattening?  Su seems right for that, btw.

Any other specials for these?  They feel about ready for skills and feats.


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## Cleon (Jul 30, 2012)

freyar said:


> 4oz will work.




A quarter of a pound is fine by me.

Updating *Cocoadaemon Working Draft* and *Chocodeva Working Draft*.



freyar said:


> 3 days for the strict diet in Fattening?  Su seems right for that, btw.




That would do I suppose, but I'm wondering if there's any way to make it a bit more interesting - what skill check or saving throw would govern an exercise regime?

Fort to have the stamina to see it through? Will to resist the temptation of sweet, sweet chocolate? Autohypnosis to ignore the hunger pangs?



freyar said:


> Any other specials for these?  They feel about ready for skills and feats.




I don't think they need any more special abilities, no.

They're described as being tricksy, so I think some sneaking skills (Hide, Move Silently) and maybe a bit of Bluff would be appropriate.


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## freyar (Jul 31, 2012)

I think I'd go with a Will save for the diet.

How about 4 ranks each in Hide and Move Silently for both types, 4 in Bluff for the cocoadaemon, and 4 in Diplomacy for the chocodeva?


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## Cleon (Jul 31, 2012)

freyar said:


> I think I'd go with a Will save for the diet.




So what additional text would you suggest?



freyar said:


> How about 4 ranks each in Hide and Move Silently for both types, 4 in Bluff for the cocoadaemon, and 4 in Diplomacy for the chocodeva?




I'd give them some Listen and Spot as well.

How about ranks of Hide 1, Move Silently 4, Listen 2, Spot 2, Bluff 3 (or Diplomacy 3 for Chocodeva).


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## freyar (Aug 1, 2012)

Fattening (S): Any living creature who eats even a small part of a chocodaemon grows so obese they move as if their encumbrance was one grade worse than it actually is (e.g. a creature in light armor or carrying a light load moves as a medium encumbered creature. This effect lasts until the subject goes on a strict diet for 3 days; in order to complete the diet, the victim must make a DC 15 Will save at the start of the 3 day period to avoid giving into culinary temptations.  In the event of a failed save, the victim can retry each day.

Those skills are acceptable.


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## Cleon (Aug 1, 2012)

freyar said:


> Fattening (S): Any living creature who eats even a small part of a chocodaemon grows so obese they move as if their encumbrance was one grade worse than it actually is (e.g. a creature in light armor or carrying a light load moves as a medium encumbered creature. This effect lasts until the subject goes on a strict diet for 3 days; in order to complete the diet, the victim must make a DC 15 Will save at the start of the 3 day period to avoid giving into culinary temptations.  In the event of a failed save, the victim can retry each day.
> 
> Those skills are acceptable.




That'll do. Except for the (S).

Updating *Cocoadaemon Working Draft* and *Chocodeva Working Draft*.

Any racial bonuses for the skills?


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## freyar (Aug 1, 2012)

I'm not sure they need any.

Thoughts on feats?  One could be Persuasive for the daemon and Negotiator for the deva.  Maybe Weapon Finesse if we don't give them that as a bonus feat.


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## Cleon (Aug 2, 2012)

freyar said:


> I'm not sure they need any.
> 
> Thoughts on feats?  One could be Persuasive for the daemon and Negotiator for the deva.  Maybe Weapon Finesse if we don't give them that as a bonus feat.




I'm OK giving them WF as a bonus.

The SRD Homunculus has Lightning Reflexes. How about that?


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## freyar (Aug 2, 2012)

That would work.  Or Alertness.  Take your pick.


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## Cleon (Aug 4, 2012)

freyar said:


> That would work.  Or Alertness.  Take your pick.




Alertness is more boring. I'll update them with Lightning Reflexes.


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## freyar (Aug 7, 2012)

They're both pretty boring, but it works for me. 

CR 1?  They have pretty decent defenses for that CR, but most of their offensive ability comes from their special abilities.


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## Cleon (Aug 8, 2012)

freyar said:


> They're both pretty boring, but it works for me.
> 
> CR 1?  They have pretty decent defenses for that CR, but most of their offensive ability comes from their special abilities.




I guess so, a Homunculus is CR 1 and is pretty similar in combatworthiness.

Hold on, its Base Attack Bonus is 1 point too low. Better fix that when I update the feats.

Updating *Cocoadaemon Working Draft* and *Chocodeva Working Draft*.


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## freyar (Aug 9, 2012)

We need to fill in some Xs:

For the chocodeva's Chocolaty Goodness, CL 3?
For the cocoadaemon's Delicious Temptation, 30 ft range, 1d4 round duration?


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## Cleon (Aug 10, 2012)

freyar said:


> We need to fill in some Xs:
> 
> For the chocodeva's Chocolaty Goodness, CL 3?
> For the cocoadaemon's Delicious Temptation, 30 ft range, 1d4 round duration?




The duration of the _aid_ effect is much longer than the 1st level spell, suggesting the CL ought to be significantly higher. Perhaps 9th?

The Delicious temptation's range is fine, but the duration seems a little brief. Maybe make it 1 minute or 1d6+6 rounds?


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## freyar (Aug 13, 2012)

Well, if we want to tie the CL to the duration of the aid effect, it should really be CL 60!  What if we just go with "receives the effects of an aid spell (caster level 20)" without mentioning the duration.  It's encoded in the CL.  Then again, this is an Su ability, so we probably shouldn't mention a CL at all.  Rather, let's go with "receives the effects of an aid spell for 1 hour."  That's unambiguous.  If you feel that's too strong, I'd be ok with changing the duration.

I don't like the arbitrary +6 on the 1d6+6 suggested duration.  I'd go with either 1 minute or 1d10 rounds.  We don't use d10s quite enough.


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## Cleon (Aug 13, 2012)

freyar said:


> Well, if we want to tie the CL to the duration of the aid effect, it should really be CL 60!  What if we just go with "receives the effects of an aid spell (caster level 20)" without mentioning the duration.  It's encoded in the CL.  Then again, this is an Su ability, so we probably shouldn't mention a CL at all.  Rather, let's go with "receives the effects of an aid spell for 1 hour."  That's unambiguous.  If you feel that's too strong, I'd be ok with changing the duration.




I'd be OK making no mention of a CL but saying the effects cannot be dispelled. 

Hmm, we could not mention the _aid_ spell and just spell out the bonuses:

e.g.:

*Chocolaty Goodness (Su**):* Any living creature that takes a good-sized bite out of a chocodeva gains a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls and saves against fear effects plus 1d8 temporary hit points for a period of 1 hour.  The duration stacks if a creature eats more than one    bite. The chocodeva takes 1d6 damage or the creature's bite attack dice   without any Strength modifier, if that is higher. However,  if the   chocodeva disapproves of the creature that bites it, the creature  must   succeed at a DC12 Fortitude save against the chocodeva's Sickeningly   Sweet quality (see  below) or be sickened and gain no benefit from   Chocolaty Goodness.



freyar said:


> I don't like the arbitrary +6 on the 1d6+6 suggested duration.  I'd go with either 1 minute or 1d10 rounds.  We don't use d10s quite enough.




Well most of the dice we pick are arbitrary when you get down to it.

Hmm, it we're going for an average around 1 minute then a duration of 2d10 is closer.


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## freyar (Aug 15, 2012)

The dice we pick are arbitrary, but the added constants are usually a standard (like +1 on breath weapon recharge times) or based on an ability.  Anyway, 2d10 is good enough.  So that sets the temptation.

Chocolaty Goodness seems to be set.


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## Cleon (Aug 16, 2012)

freyar said:


> The dice we pick are arbitrary, but the added constants are usually a standard (like +1 on breath weapon recharge times) or based on an ability.  Anyway, 2d10 is good enough.  So that sets the temptation.
> 
> Chocolaty Goodness seems to be set.




Updating *Cocoadaemon Working Draft* and *Chocodeva Working Draft*.


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## freyar (Aug 16, 2012)

I guess we don't need the extra skills lines at the bottom.

All ready for tactics, description, and flavor?


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## Cleon (Aug 16, 2012)

freyar said:


> I guess we don't need the extra skills lines at the bottom.




I'll get around to cutting them eventually. We seem to be OK with them having no racial bonuses.



freyar said:


> All ready for tactics, description, and flavor?




Sure!


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## freyar (Aug 20, 2012)

Tactics (daemon): A chocodaemon is not a particularly strong fighter, so the self-serving creatures usually hang back out of battle.  However, a chocodaemon facing a foe it must disable approaches the center of battle before using its Delicious Temptation ability.


If that works, we can do something similar for the deva.


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## Cleon (Aug 20, 2012)

freyar said:


> Tactics (daemon): A chocodaemon is not a particularly strong fighter, so the self-serving creatures usually hang back out of battle.  However, a chocodaemon facing a foe it must disable approaches the center of battle before using its Delicious Temptation ability.
> 
> If that works, we can do something similar for the deva.




The chocodaemon targets a specific individual with its Delicious Temptation, so it need not approach the center of battle. I'd think it'd be more likely to use the power to lure its target away, possibly into an ambush.

How's this...

Chocodaemons are weak fighters, so  the self-serving creatures usually hang back out of battle. If they must fight, they often use their Delicious Temptation special attack to provoke an opponent into chasing them, then try to lead their opponent into a vulnerable position. A chocodaemon may encourage an enemy to bite them, so their opponent will be hampered by the yugoloth's Fattening ability.


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## Debby (Aug 20, 2012)

Cleon said:


> I'd be OK making no mention of a CL but saying the effects cannot be dispelled.
> 
> Hmm, we could not mention the _aid_ spell and just spell out the bonuses:
> 
> ...




If I may stick my pedantic nose in this....


*Chocolaty Goodness (Su**):* Any living creature that  takes a good-sized bite out of a chocodeva  gains a +1 morale bonus on  attack rolls and saves against fear effects  plus 1d8 temporary hit  points for a period of 1 hour.  The duration  stacks if a creature eats  more than one    bite. The chocodeva takes either 1d6  points of damage or the creature's  bite attack dice   without any Strength  modifier, if that is higher.  However,  if the   chocodeva disapproves of  the creature that bites it,  the creature  must   succeed at a DC 12  Fortitude save against the  chocodeva's Sickeningly   Sweet quality (see   below) or be sickened and  gain no benefit from   Chocolaty Goodness. The save is Charisma-based. 

Debby


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## Cleon (Aug 21, 2012)

Debby said:


> If I may stick my pedantic nose in this....
> 
> 
> *Chocolaty Goodness (Su**):* Any living creature that  takes a good-sized bite out of a chocodeva  gains a +1 morale bonus on  attack rolls and saves against fear effects  plus 1d8 temporary hit  points for a period of 1 hour.  The duration  stacks if a creature eats  more than one    bite. The chocodeva takes either 1d6  points of damage or the creature's  bite attack dice   without any Strength  modifier, if that is higher.  However,  if the   chocodeva disapproves of  the creature that bites it,  the creature  must   succeed at a DC 12  Fortitude save against the  chocodeva's Sickeningly   Sweet quality (see   below) or be sickened and  gain no benefit from   Chocolaty Goodness. The save is Charisma-based.
> ...




Yes, I wasn't entirely happy with that bite damage sentence.

Hmm, I like the following better:

The chocodeva takes either 1d6  points of damage or the creature's  bite  attack damage dice   without any Strength  modifier, whichever is higher.


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## freyar (Aug 21, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Yes, I wasn't entirely happy with that bite damage sentence.
> 
> Hmm, I like the following better:
> 
> The chocodeva takes either 1d6  points of damage or the creature's  bite  attack damage dice   without any Strength  modifier, whichever is higher.



This last version is good for me.

I also like your revision of the cocoadaemon's tactics, except we need to swap "chocodaemon" to cocoadaemon. That was my mistake.  

For the chocodeva:
Chocodevas are weak fighters, so they usually stay out of melee, offering advice to their summoners.  If the tide of battle turns against their allies, they offer themselves in sacrifice to aid their friends.


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## Cleon (Aug 22, 2012)

freyar said:


> This last version is good for me.
> 
> I also like your revision of the cocoadaemon's tactics, except we need to swap "chocodaemon" to cocoadaemon. That was my mistake.
> 
> ...




That all looks fine to me, including the 'devas.

 Updating *Cocoadaemon Working Draft* and *Chocodeva Working Draft*.


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## freyar (Aug 26, 2012)

The same description can probably serve for both (or with slight modifications).  Something like this?

A small replica of a human made of a delectable chocolate.


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## Cleon (Aug 26, 2012)

freyar said:


> The same description can probably serve for both (or with slight modifications).  Something like this?
> 
> A small replica of a human made of a delectable chocolate.




I imagine them looking like a fat caricature of a fiend or angel.

e.g. the cocoademon has a cape, forked tail, little horns and a pitchfork, while the chocodeva has a toga, halo and a harp. They both have ridiculously small wings (batlike for 'daemons, feathery for 'devas), but these are purely ornamental. They probably have expressions of leering cunning or blissful contentment.

Thus...

_A foot-tall creature seemingly molded from the darkest chocolate. It has the form of an obese humanoid with little horns, a forked tail, and an expression of leering cunning. A __pair of __ridiculously small __batlike __wings __sprout from its shoulders, but these __appendages seem purely ornamental._

and

_A foot-tall creature seemingly molded from delectable chocolate. It  has the form of an rotund humanoid wearing __a toga-like garment, __a halo, and an expression of blissful contentment. A pair of ridiculously small feathery wings sprout from its shoulders, __but these __appendages seem __purely ornamental._

The agricultural instruments and musical instruments can be left to the background info.


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## freyar (Aug 29, 2012)

Hmmm, I had proposed that the deva is the dark chocolate one, while the daemon is the less expensive (and less tasty ) milk chocolate.  I'm fine with "delectable" in the chocodeva description, but could we use some other adjective for the cocoadaemon?  "Sinful" maybe?


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## Cleon (Aug 30, 2012)

freyar said:


> Hmmm, I had proposed that the deva is the dark chocolate one, while the daemon is the less expensive (and less tasty ) milk chocolate.  I'm fine with "delectable" in the chocodeva description, but could we use some other adjective for the cocoadaemon?  "Sinful" maybe?




I'd rather not have an explicit moral adjective, how about "tantalizing milky chocolate" for the 'daemon and "delectable dark chocolate" for the 'deva?

"Tantalizing" has an element of teasing/temptating and implied sinfulness, and the word derives from the name of a soul being tortured in the underworld, giving it a fiendish connection too!


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## freyar (Sep 5, 2012)

"Tantalizing" it is.  Excellent!

Some ideas for flavor: created by outsiders to influence mortal spellcasters, fill a similar role to a familiar, ??


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## Cleon (Sep 5, 2012)

freyar said:


> "Tantalizing" it is.  Excellent!




 Updating *Cocoadaemon Working Draft* and *Chocodeva Working Draft*.

_A foot-tall creature seemingly molded from tantalizing milky chocolate. It  has the form of an obese humanoid with little horns, a forked tail, and  an expression of leering cunning. A __pair of __ridiculously small __batlike __wings __sprout from its shoulders, but these __appendages seem purely ornamental.
_
and

_A foot-tall creature seemingly molded from delectable dark chocolate. It  has the form of an rotund humanoid wearing __a toga-like garment, __a halo, and an expression of blissful contentment. A pair of ridiculously small feathery wings sprout from its shoulders, __but these __appendages seem __purely ornamental._



freyar said:


> Some ideas for flavor: created by outsiders to influence mortal spellcasters, fill a similar role to a familiar, ??




Sounds rather like we should allow them to become Special Familiars, or familiar-like Companions to a "Zee Chef" cleric.


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## freyar (Sep 10, 2012)

I wouldn't suggest making them actually be familiars, but I would say that they often become constant companions to Zee Chefs, much like familiars to other casters.


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## Cleon (Sep 11, 2012)

freyar said:


> I wouldn't suggest making them actually be familiars, but I would say that they often become constant companions to Zee Chefs, much like familiars to other casters.




Yes, well "actual familiar" is a bit hard when Zee Chefs are clerics.

Shall we just make them Cohorts, then?


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## freyar (Sep 13, 2012)

Yes, that's the rule set I should have been thinking about!

Cocoadaemons were originally created by daemon rulers as a way of tempting spellcasters onto the path of evil.  Sometime shortly after, the angels devised chocodevas in answer to do the reverse.

Neither cocoadaemons or chocodevas are terribly effective combatants, but, as cohorts to clerics, they often serve as advisors and at times carry out the same tasks as an arcane caster's familiar.


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## Cleon (Sep 14, 2012)

freyar said:


> Yes, that's the rule set I should have been thinking about!




What LA do you fancy for them as Cohorts, then?



freyar said:


> Cocoadaemons were originally created by daemon rulers as a way of tempting spellcasters onto the path of evil.  Sometime shortly after, the angels devised chocodevas in answer to do the reverse.
> 
> Neither cocoadaemons or chocodevas are terribly effective combatants, but, as cohorts to clerics, they often serve as advisors and at times carry out the same tasks as an arcane caster's familiar.




Can we have something a bit more elegant than "Sometime shortly after, the angels devised chocodevas in answer to do the reverse"?


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## freyar (Sep 15, 2012)

Please feel free to edit my flavor text as you see fit!  I can never write it as evocatively as I'd like.

I'm also not terribly familiar with LA, especially as applied to cohorts.  But I can't imagine it would be much.  Maybe +1 for both of them?


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## Cleon (Sep 16, 2012)

freyar said:


> Please feel free to edit my flavor text as you see fit!  I can never write it as evocatively as I'd like.




I'll see what I can come up with. 



freyar said:


> I'm also not terribly familiar with LA, especially as applied to  cohorts.  But I can't imagine it would be much.  Maybe +1 for both of  them?




Hmm, the closest match I can find in the SRD is the Mephit (or, rather, Mephits).

They're LA +3 (cohort), so are effectively 6th level creatures as henchmephits.

That seems a bit high, although I suppose the Chocodeva's Chocolaty Goodness is quite handy for its master or allies.


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## freyar (Sep 17, 2012)

True. What about +2 LA for the cocoadaemon and +3 LA for the chocodeva?


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## Cleon (Sep 18, 2012)

freyar said:


> True. What about +2 LA for the cocoadaemon and +3 LA for the chocodeva?




I'd rather keep them the same LA.

We could give the Chocodaemon a dubious benefit it can grant to an ally, I suppose, or just say the Fattening and distraction is close enough in utility to the Chocolaty goodness.


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## freyar (Sep 19, 2012)

It doesn't matter too much to me.  Do you prefer +2 or +3 in that case?


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## Cleon (Sep 19, 2012)

freyar said:


> It doesn't matter too much to me.  Do you prefer +2 or +3 in that case?




Tricky. Are they more or less useful than a Mephit cohort?

Well mephits can fly and they have fast healing, plus they're a bit more useful in a fight as far as their AC & damage output goes.

Let's make it +2 LA then.


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## freyar (Sep 21, 2012)

Fair enough.


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## Cleon (Sep 21, 2012)

freyar said:


> Fair enough.




  Updating *Cocoadaemon Working Draft* and *Chocodeva Working Draft*.


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## freyar (Sep 26, 2012)

Shall we work on the background or the summoning spells first?  I kind of like the red text you have in the spell as the background flavor.


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## Cleon (Sep 27, 2012)

freyar said:


> Shall we work on the background or the summoning spells first?  I kind of like the red text you have in the spell as the background flavor.




Whichever suits you.

It sounds like you're leaning towards background first, if you're developing a liking for a particular background flavour.


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## freyar (Oct 2, 2012)

According to myth, cocoadaemons were created by a yugoloth lord to tempt non-evil casters with their chocolatey deliciousness.  A solar then developed the chocodeva, a construct with identical statistics to a cocoadaemon except it has the Angel subtype. If a spellcaster summons both a chocodeva and a cocoadaemon, the two constructs will take every opportunity to insult the other and persuade the caster towards their ethical point of view, usually while sitting on the caster's shoulders.

Like other extraplanar constructs, such as retrievers, cocoadaemons and chocodevas are not built by mortals but by outsiders and then summoned to the Material Plane.


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## Cleon (Oct 3, 2012)

freyar said:


> According to myth, cocoadaemons were created by a yugoloth lord to tempt non-evil casters with their chocolatey deliciousness.  A solar then developed the chocodeva, a construct with identical statistics to a cocoadaemon except it has the Angel subtype. If a spellcaster summons both a chocodeva and a cocoadaemon, the two constructs will take every opportunity to insult the other and persuade the caster towards their ethical point of view, usually while sitting on the caster's shoulders.
> 
> Like other extraplanar constructs, such as retrievers, cocoadaemons and chocodevas are not built by mortals but by outsiders and then summoned to the Material Plane.




We're using "chocolaty" not "chocolatey".

I'd also explicate the 'deva was created to oppose the Cocoadaemon.

We should say what spells can be used to conjure a cocoadaemon.

How's this revision...

According to myth, cocoadaemons were created by a  yugoloth lord to tempt non-evil casters with their chocolatey  deliciousness.  A solar then developed a construct with  similar attributes and the Angel subtype to oppose the cocoadaemon, the chocodeva.  If a spellcaster summons both a chocodeva and a cocoadaemon, the two  constructs will take every opportunity to insult the other and persuade  the caster towards their ethical point of view, usually while sitting on  the caster's shoulders.

Like other extraplanar constructs, such as retrievers, cocoadaemons and  chocodevas are built by outsiders,  not constructed by mortals. They can be summoned to the Material Plane by a _summon monster ??_ spell or the _cocoadaemon/chocodeva_ spell.


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## freyar (Oct 4, 2012)

That's funny, I just copied from your text. 

I'm not sure I'd allow them to be summoned via summon monster.  I mean, they're not the kind of thing you'd need for just a few rounds, are they?  I guess you could order a chocodeva to sacrifice itself for you, but should that be an evil act?  Hmmmm.


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## Cleon (Oct 5, 2012)

freyar said:


> That's funny, I just copied from your text.




Plagiarist. 

Well, my text wasn't a final version, so I had room for improvement.



freyar said:


> I'm not sure I'd allow them to be summoned via summon monster.  I mean, they're not the kind of thing you'd need for just a few rounds, are they?  I guess you could order a chocodeva to sacrifice itself for you, but should that be an evil act?  Hmmmm.




Yeah, I guess we could drop the _summon monster_. It'd have to be pretty high level to compensate for the healing goodness.


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## freyar (Oct 11, 2012)

Let's go with the above for flavor, then, dropping summon monster.  And now we can work on the more permanent summoning spell.  Let's see:



			
				Cleon said:
			
		

> Cocoadaemon/Chocodeva
> Conjuration/Summoning [See Text]
> Level: Clr 4, Sor/Wiz 4
> Components: V, S, M
> ...




Short range would seem to make the most sense.  Do we just need to add a description of the chocodeva and a discussion of good/evil descriptors?  I guess I'd make it a good spell to summon the deva and evil to summon the daemon; the main question is if we want evil casters to summon the daemon automatically (and good the deva) or to give casters a choice (temptation to the other side)?


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## Cleon (Oct 12, 2012)

freyar said:


> Let's go with the above for flavor, then, dropping summon monster.  And now we can work on the more permanent summoning spell.  Let's see:
> 
> 
> Short range would seem to make the most sense.  Do we just need to add a description of the chocodeva and a discussion of good/evil descriptors?  I guess I'd make it a good spell to summon the deva and evil to summon the daemon; the main question is if we want evil casters to summon the daemon automatically (and good the deva) or to give casters a choice (temptation to the other side)?




Shouldn't we base it on the standard _summon monster_ spell, which means it should have a Close range.


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## freyar (Oct 15, 2012)

Yes, I meant close range.

Cocoadaemon/Chocodeva
Conjuration/Summoning [See Text]
Level: Clr 4, Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 3 hours
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One cocoademon or chocodeva
Duration: Permanent until dispelled
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

With this spell, the chef creates a 10" tall daemon- or angel-like creature made of chocolate, which can obey simple instructions from its creator (such as carrying light objects, stealing a small item, sounding an alarm in case of an unexpected visit, etc.). The cocoademon is of low intelligence and, though loyal to its summoner, it likes practical jokes and causing mischief (but hates hot temperatures). Chocodevas, in contrast, are merry but take a protective attitude toward their summoners.  It has 1 hp per level of the caster and an armor class of 10. The material component is 3 pounds of chocolate.



I'm not sure I like the red text; shouldn't hp be based on the monster's HD?


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## Cleon (Oct 17, 2012)

freyar said:


> Yes, I meant close range.
> 
> Cocoadaemon/Chocodeva
> Conjuration/Summoning [See Text]
> ...




I'm fine giving them standard hit points.

If it has a "HP based on summoner" version it would probably be a special familiar.


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## freyar (Oct 22, 2012)

In that case, let's add the following flavor to both of them, as discussed above:


According to myth, cocoadaemons were created by a yugoloth lord to tempt non-evil casters with their chocolatey deliciousness. A solar then developed a construct with similar attributes and the Angel subtype to oppose the cocoadaemon, the chocodeva. If a spellcaster summons both a chocodeva and a cocoadaemon, the two constructs will take every opportunity to insult the other and persuade the caster towards their ethical point of view, usually while sitting on the caster's shoulders.

Like other extraplanar constructs, such as retrievers, cocoadaemons and chocodevas are built by outsiders, not constructed by mortals. They can be summoned to the Material Plane by the cocoadaemon/chocodeva spell.

and the spell

Cocoadaemon/Chocodeva
Conjuration/Summoning [See Text]
Level: Clr 4, Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 3 hours
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One cocoademon or chocodeva
Duration: Permanent until dispelled
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

With this spell, the chef creates a 10" tall daemon- or angel-like creature made of chocolate, which can obey simple instructions from its creator (such as carrying light objects, stealing a small item, sounding an alarm in case of an unexpected visit, etc.). The cocoademon is of low intelligence and, though loyal to its summoner, it likes practical jokes and causing mischief (but hates hot temperatures). Chocodevas, in contrast, are merry but take a protective attitude toward their summoners.  The material component is 3 pounds of chocolate.



Given that they're built by outsiders, we have no need for construction requirements, agreed?  (Just like the retriever.)  I think they're done.


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## Cleon (Oct 22, 2012)

freyar said:


> Cocoadaemon/Chocodeva
> Conjuration/Summoning [See Text]
> Level: Clr 4, Sor/Wiz 4
> Components: V, S, M
> ...




We need to add a variable alignment descriptor in the text to explain the "[See Text]" behind the Conjuration/Summoning.

I'd also put a price on the material components, which should probably be broken out.

e.g.:

_Material Components:_ Three pounds of the finest chocolate flavored with rare spices, costing *X* gold pieces.

Related to that component, we should change "the chef creates" since it's a Conjuration/Summoning spell not a Conjuration/Creation - unless you want to change it to a Conjuration/Creation spell, like _shambler_ or _mordenkainen's faithful hound_.

Could we make it a Summoning AND a Creation spell? There's only one SRD spell with two Subschools, namely _gate_, and that is an OR not an AND, as it has a descriptor of "Conjuration (Creation or Calling)".

Hmm, that doesn't make much sense - if these critters originate from the outer planes, we should keep the Summoning and reword it so "the caster conjures a 10" tall daemon or angel-like creature made of chocolate".

Also, I'm not that keen on the description of the chocodevas.

How about "Chocodevas, in contrast, are merry beings with a protective attitude toward their summoners, but they tend to nag creatures whose behavior they consider immoral."

Putting it together...

*Cocoadaemon/Chocodeva*
_ Conjuration/Summoning (Evil or Good_ [See Text]_)_
Level: Clr 4, Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 3 hours
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One cocoademon or chocodeva
Duration: Permanent until dispelled
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

With this spell, the caster conjures a 10" tall daemon- or angel-like  creature made of chocolate, which can obey simple instructions from its  creator (such as carrying light objects, stealing a small item, sounding  an alarm in case of an unexpected visit, etc.). The cocoademon is of  low intelligence and, though loyal to its summoner, it likes practical  jokes and causing mischief (but hates hot temperatures). Chocodevas, in contrast, are merry beings with a protective attitude  toward their summoners, but they tend to nag creatures whose behavior  they consider immoral.

The _cocoadaemon/chocodeva_ spell is an Evil spell when used to summon a cocoadaemon and a Good spell when used to summon a chocodeva.

_Material Components:_ Three pounds of the finest chocolate flavored with rare spices, costing *X* gold pieces.


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## freyar (Oct 23, 2012)

Yes!  I just remembered about the alignment descriptors.  How many gp do you want it to cost?  1000 gp, similar to homunculus creation cost?

This looks pretty good to me now.


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## Cleon (Oct 24, 2012)

freyar said:


> Yes!  I just remembered about the alignment descriptors.  How many gp do you want it to cost?  1000 gp, similar to homunculus creation cost?
> 
> This looks pretty good to me now.




I was thinking more 500 gp, but I guess making it 1,000 gp like the Homunculus makes sense since they're of similar usefulness.

Do we want it to have an XP cost too?

Does it require a specially prepared kitchen to produce, like a Homunculus needs a lab/workroom, or just a focal item - like, say, a silver chocolate mold in the shape of whatever creature is to be conjured?


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## freyar (Oct 29, 2012)

As it's a spell instead of construction requirements, I'd say no to the special kitchen, and I think the 3 lb of fine chocolate for a material component should be fine instead of a focus.

I'm waffling on the XP cost, but I think no.  The yugoloth would want them to have some cost (to make it less obvious that they're a loss leader) but not a heavy one, so gp but no XP cost makes sense to me.


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## Cleon (Oct 29, 2012)

freyar said:


> As it's a spell instead of construction requirements, I'd say no to the special kitchen, and I think the 3 lb of fine chocolate for a material component should be fine instead of a focus.
> 
> I'm waffling on the XP cost, but I think no.  The yugoloth would want them to have some cost (to make it less obvious that they're a loss leader) but not a heavy one, so gp but no XP cost makes sense to me.




I don't mind dropping the kitchen and XP requirement, since it's a Summoning rather than a Creation spell, but I like the idea of the mold.


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## freyar (Oct 29, 2012)

The mold is flavor-licious for sure.  If you want both M and F components, how about each costs 500 gp?


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## Cleon (Oct 30, 2012)

freyar said:


> The mold is flavor-licious for sure.  If you want both M and F components, how about each costs 500 gp?




That works out to a similar cost to the Homunculus, except without the XP, so I'm fine.

Do we want to include the +2000 gp per additional Hit Dice that the Homunculus has? It seems a bit much, so I'd be fine reducing it to 1,000 gold per HD?

Personally I wouldn't bother, since conjuration spells don't usually allow for the summoning of advanced versions of a monster.

So, how about this to finish off the chococritters (Note that I've tweaked the summoning spell's description a bit in the draft below):

*Cocoadaemon*

_A foot-tall creature seemingly molded from tantalizing milky  chocolate. It  has the form of an obese humanoid with little horns, a  forked tail, and  an expression of leering cunning. A __pair of __ridiculously small __batlike __wings __sprout from its shoulders, but these __appendages seem purely ornamental._

A cocoadaemon is an extraplanar construct formed from living chocolate. According to myth, cocoadaemons were created by a yugoloth lord to tempt  non-evil casters with their chocolatey deliciousness. A solar then  developed a construct with similar attributes and the Angel subtype to  oppose the cocoadaemon, the chocodeva. If a spellcaster summons both a  chocodeva and a cocoadaemon, the two constructs will  take every  opportunity to insult the other while seeking to persuade the caster towards their  ethical point of view, usually while sitting on their summoner's shoulders.

Like other extraplanar constructs, such as retrievers, cocoadaemons and  chocodevas are built by outsiders, not constructed by mortals. They can  be summoned to the Material Plane by the _cocoadaemon/chocodeva_ spell (see below).

A cocoadaemon is typically a foot tall and weighs 3 pounds.

Cocoadaemons speak Common, Abyssal, Celestial and Infernal.

* * *​*Chocodeva*

_A foot-tall creature seemingly molded from delectable dark chocolate. It  has the form of an rotund humanoid wearing __a toga-like garment, __a halo, and an expression of blissful contentment. A pair of ridiculously small feathery wings sprout from its shoulders, __but these __appendages seem __purely ornamental._

A chocodeva is an extraplanar construct formed from living chocolate that strives to encourage mortals to do good works. Emezon legend says they were invented by a solar to counter the corrupting influence of evil chocolate beings called cocoadaemons. If a spellcaster summons both a  chocodeva and a cocoadaemon, the two constructs will  take every  opportunity to insult the other while seeking to persuade the caster  towards their  ethical point of view, usually while sitting on their summoner's  shoulders.

Like other extraplanar constructs, such as retrievers, cocoadaemons and  chocodevas are built by outsiders, not constructed by mortals. They can  be summoned to the Material Plane by the _cocoadaemon/chocodeva_ spell (see below).

A chocodeva is typically a foot tall and weighs 3 pounds.

Chocodevas speak Common, Abyssal, Celestial and Infernal.

* * *​
*Cocoadaemon/Chocodeva*
_ Conjuration/Summoning (Evil or Good_ [See Text]_)_
Level: Clr 4, Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M, F
Casting Time: 3 hours
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One cocoadaemon or chocodeva
Duration: Permanent until dispelled
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

With this spell, the caster conjures a foot tall daemon- or angel-like   creature made of chocolate, which can obey simple instructions from its   creator (such as carrying light objects, stealing a small item,  sounding  an alarm in case of an unexpected visit, etc.). Cocoadaemons are of  low intelligence and, though loyal to their summoner, they like  practical  jokes and causing mischief (but hate hot temperatures).  Chocodevas, in contrast, are merry beings with a protective attitude   toward their summoners, although they tend to nag creatures whose behavior   they consider immoral.

The _cocoadaemon/chocodeva_ spell is an Evil spell when used to summon a cocoadaemon and a Good spell when used to summon a chocodeva.

_Material Component:_ Three pounds of the finest chocolate flavored with rare spices, costing 500 gold pieces.

_Focus:_  A silver chocolate mold costing 500 gold pieces. To summon a  cocoadaemon the mold must be in the shape of an evil outsider, a  chocodeva requires a mold shaped like a good outsider.

Shall I add the above to the *Cocoadaemon Working Draft* and *Chocodeva Working Draft*.


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## freyar (Oct 30, 2012)

Excellent!  Please do, and let's call it a day.


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## Cleon (Oct 30, 2012)

freyar said:


> Excellent!  Please do, and let's call it a day.




It's a period of eighty six thousand and four hundred IS seconds!


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## Cleon (Nov 26, 2012)

I'm just prepping the Emezon for uploading to the CC and noticed we haven't finalized the cleric domains for Zee Chef.

Currently it's got "An emezon cleric has access to two of the following domains: Culinary, X, Y, or Z. [Charm?, Community?, Protection?, Magic?, Liberation? Artifice?]"

Any preferences?


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## freyar (Nov 26, 2012)

Community has a bit of overlap with culinary but is otherwise thematically good.  I think of those I like Artifice, Community, and Protection.


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## Cleon (Nov 26, 2012)

freyar said:


> Community has a bit of overlap with culinary but is otherwise thematically good.  I think of those I like Artifice, Community, and Protection.




Works for me.

I'll update the Emezon Working Draft.


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## Cleon (Nov 26, 2012)

Hold on, it looks like we got the date of origin wrong for the Amazon and   Emezon.

According to this list, Polyhedron #22 has a release date of Jan/Feb 1985 and #23 has a date of Mar/Apr 1985.

I'd better correct the working drafts and CC versions.


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## Cleon (Nov 26, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Hold on, it looks like we got the date of origin wrong for the Amazon and   Emezon.
> 
> According to this list, Polyhedron #22 has a release date of Jan/Feb 1985 and #23 has a date of Mar/Apr 1985.
> 
> I'd better correct the working drafts and CC versions.




Can't correct the Amazon working draft in Homebrews since Freyar and I still don't have editing rights to that thread. That doesn't prevent me correcting the Amazon's *original working draft* though. I just need to change the Conversion list so it points to that instead of the Homebrew one.

The Emezon Working Draft and the CC versions of the Amazon and Emezon have been fixed, too.


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2012)

Since these are in the CC, are we done here?  Do we have any more Polyhedron critters?  Or should we let this lay fallow for now even if we do?


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## Cleon (Dec 11, 2012)

freyar said:


> Since these are in the CC, are we done here?  Do we have any more Polyhedron critters?  Or should we let this lay fallow for now even if we do?




I'm happy letting this thread rest for a while whether or not we have and more _Polyhedron_ monsters left.


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