# Wall of Stone Question / Overpowered?



## Mistwell (Nov 6, 2004)

I have a question about increasing the thickness of a wall of stone at the expense of width/height.

Here is the SRD entry for it for reference



> Wall of Stone
> Conjuration (Creation) [Earth]
> Level: Clr 5, Drd 6, Earth 5, Sor/Wiz 5
> Components: V, S, M/DF
> ...




Part of the spell says "You can double the wall’s area by halving its thickness. ".  My question is, can I double the wall's thickness by halving its area?  For example, lets say I am a 9th level Cleric using the spell to seal a standard 5' doorway.  How thick can I make the wall?  Can I make it double over on itself?  I'm looking to make the DC higher for breaking through, or require multiple break attempts to get all the way through.  Anyone have some thoughts on this?


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## Majere (Nov 6, 2004)

As per the rules:
No you cant.

It might be a reasonable house rule, just beware you might find that the spell could be overly poweful when people start filling 10x10 corridors with 3" thick stone.

Majere


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## Rashak Mani (Nov 6, 2004)

You could shape the wall to make it block the same corridor several times...


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## Cheiromancer (Nov 6, 2004)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> Can I make it double over on itself?




Absolutely; it's like folding a piece of paper, and is an obvious application of the provision that "you can create a wall of stone in almost any shape you desire."  You create the wall doubled back on itself.

They have to specify that you can cover a greater area by using a thinner wall, since the piece of paper argument doesn't apply; you can't stretch a piece of paper.


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## Mistwell (Nov 6, 2004)

So, assuming it can double back on itself, would that mean that you would need to make one strength DC check per section?  In other words, if I make it double back on itself twice (total of three sections), would it require three separate strength checks to break all the way through, or would it just be one strength check with the DC increased for the additional inches of thickness?


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## Cheiromancer (Nov 6, 2004)

One check, if they are merged together.

Three checks, if there is a significant space between them.

Think of how three sticks can be easily broken separately; if they are bundled together the task is much harder.


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## Mistwell (Nov 6, 2004)

Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> One check, if they are merged together.
> 
> Three checks, if there is a significant space between them.
> 
> Think of how three sticks can be easily broken separately; if they are bundled together the task is much harder.




Okay, so lets assume it is stacked first:

"A wall of stone is 1 inch thick per four caster levels and composed of up to one 5-foot square per level."

So a 9th level caster can create a wall 2 inches thick and 45 square feet (9 5-foot square sections).  In other words, you could stack a 5 foot block as 18 inches thick. It would have 15 hit points per inch of thickness, for a total of 270 hit points.  It would have a hardness of 8.  If a creature tries to break through the wall with a single attack, the DC for the Strength check is 20 + 2 per inch of thickness, for a total DC of 20+36=56.

I don't know guys.  If my math is right (and I hope someone can verify it for me) that makes it virtually impossible to break through.  In fact, the guy trying to get through the blocked door would likely have a better chance digging out through the wall next to the door.  Is this really how people have used wall of stone before?


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## Lamoni (Nov 7, 2004)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> I don't know guys.  If my math is right (and I hope someone can verify it for me) that makes it virtually impossible to break through.  In fact, the guy trying to get through the blocked door would likely have a better chance digging out through the wall next to the door.  Is this really how people have used wall of stone before?



Looks fine to me.  It is a 5th level spell and using it prevent passage through a door doesn't seem overpowered.  The person could use Wall of force instead and that seems like it would do an even better job of preventing people from getting through the door.


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## Plane Sailing (Nov 7, 2004)

Lamoni said:
			
		

> Looks fine to me.  It is a 5th level spell and using it prevent passage through a door doesn't seem overpowered.  The person could use Wall of force instead and that seems like it would do an even better job of preventing people from getting through the door.




Except that wall of force isn't permanent, wall of stone is.

I personally wouldn't allow increasing of thickness, because as Mistwell calculates, the wall becomes impossibly strong.


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## Lamoni (Nov 7, 2004)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> Except that wall of force isn't permanent, wall of stone is.
> 
> I personally wouldn't allow increasing of thickness, because as Mistwell calculates, the wall becomes impossibly strong.



In a few cases... but at the time you have access to wall of stone, your enemies could very well have access to another 5th level spell.  Teleport.  Granted, most grunts would spend a long time getting through that.  Let's see... it would take about a minute per inch of thickness for a very dedicated person on the appropriate level to breech the wall.  It would be very similar to just tunneling through rock in a normal mine.  It is quite possible to pass and I see no problem with creating something like this at 5th level.  And I see no reason why you shouldn't allow it based on the rules.  

If my players decided to use wall of stone for this purpose, I would find it quite clever.

Edit: Most doors are quite a bit taller than 5'.  So if you wanted to completely block the door you would most likely need to make it 10' tall... which cuts the thickness in half (8-10 inches).  If you wanted to use it to block a 10' wide corridor it would cut the thickness in half again (4 inches).  After level 12 you can make it quite a bit thicker, but you also have access to level 6 spells.


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## Kyrail (Nov 8, 2004)

Yes, but really even if allowed to stack up, it's easily countered by a fourth level spell-- stone shape.


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## Tatsukun (Nov 8, 2004)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> Except that wall of force isn't permanent, wall of stone is.
> 
> I personally wouldn't allow increasing of thickness, because as Mistwell calculates, the wall becomes impossibly strong.




Well let's see...

9th level barbarian, power attacking all the way, rage, maybe bull's strength, +1 Adamantine elder-maul (or greatsword, both are 2D6 two handed weapons).

2D6 + 18 (PA) + 8(Str) +1(weapon) = average 34 points per hit, two attacks a round, makes 68 points a roundSo, this 5th level spell will hold off said barbarian for an average of about 24 seconds (4 rounds). 

Doesn't seem impossibly strong to me. Even if the weapon isn't adamantine, it still only takes another round or so. 

I would allow it.

      -Tatsu


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## Mistwell (Nov 8, 2004)

Tatsukun said:
			
		

> Well let's see...
> 
> 9th level barbarian, power attacking all the way, rage, maybe bull's strength, +1 Adamantine elder-maul (or greatsword, both are 2D6 two handed weapons).
> 
> ...




Wow.  Yeah, that puts it into perspective a bit.

My hope was to use the wall to block a horde of creatures for about a turn or two, while we deal with another horde.  The two hordes teaming up at the same time is what I was trying to prevent, and I figured blocking one door with a bit block of stone would do the trick.


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## AuraSeer (Nov 8, 2004)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> My hope was to use the wall to block a horde of creatures for about a turn or two, while we deal with another horde.  The two hordes teaming up at the same time is what I was trying to prevent, and I figured blocking one door with a bit block of stone would do the trick.



_Wall of force_ is better suited to this kind of situation. It's impervious to damage, tunnelling, and most magic, so no horde of grunts is going to get through it at all. Also it's dismissible, so once you've dealt with the first group of monsters, you can shut off the wall and let the second group in.


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## Mistwell (Nov 8, 2004)

AuraSeer said:
			
		

> _Wall of force_ is better suited to this kind of situation. It's impervious to damage, tunnelling, and most magic, so no horde of grunts is going to get through it at all. Also it's dismissible, so once you've dealt with the first group of monsters, you can shut off the wall and let the second group in.




I'm a cleric


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## AuraSeer (Nov 8, 2004)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> I'm a cleric



Oh. Er... have you got a wizard in the party? 

You might try getting your hands on a scroll of _blade barrier_, depending on what kind of enemies are involved. It works very well against hordes of weak melee monsters; a wall that kills enemies who breach it is even better than one which can't be breached. The downsides are that it won't kill strong enemies, it only gives cover (not full cover) against ranged attacks, and monsters with Evasion may get through with no damage at all.

I'm trying to think of something besides _wall of stone_ for this because it's permanent and undispellable. Unless you've got a way to destroy or remove it when you don't want it anymore, it can work against you, because the second horde may escape or get up to other mischief while you're unable to reach them.


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## DanMcS (Nov 8, 2004)

AuraSeer said:
			
		

> I'm trying to think of something besides _wall of stone_ for this because it's permanent and undispellable. Unless you've got a way to destroy or remove it when you don't want it anymore, it can work against you, because the second horde may escape or get up to other mischief while you're unable to reach them.




Well, if he's playing a cleric, he can use Stone Shape.


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## Nail (Nov 8, 2004)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> I'm a cleric



In one of my games, I too play a cleric.

I don't see any problem with allowing the wall to be completely shapable...after all, that's what the rules say.  Moreover, it doesn't make the spell too powerful.  Many, many, many CR-appropriate monsters have the damage dealing prowess to break through the wall.

And really: much of the time, you'll be wanting to seal off whole corridors...and that makes the wall much less thick.


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## Ridley's Cohort (Nov 8, 2004)

By the time you can cast Wall of Stone, how many of your opponents _can't_ defeat it?  Most likely, none of them.

The only question is whether they can or must burn a limited resource to do so in a convenient amount of time.  Given enough time even a vanilla Orc will get through.  Brute monsters can simply smash a hole in the wall in 1 or 2 rounds  of full attacks.


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## Plane Sailing (Nov 9, 2004)

Tatsukun said:
			
		

> Well let's see...
> 
> 9th level barbarian, power attacking all the way, rage, maybe bull's strength, +1 Adamantine elder-maul (or greatsword, both are 2D6 two handed weapons).
> 
> 2D6 + 18 (PA) + 8(Str) +1(weapon) = average 34 points per hit, two attacks a round, makes 68 points a roundSo, this 5th level spell will hold off said barbarian for an average of about 24 seconds (4 rounds).




In this circumstance I'd take note of the line in PHB p165 "the DM may determine that certain weapons just can't effectively deal damage to certain objects".

If you ain't got a pick, you ain't tunneling through stone walls matey. Swords can't chop through stone 

Cheers


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## Mistwell (Nov 9, 2004)

Our sorceror does not know wall of force, and likely never will.  Nor do I have the opportubity to obtain a scroll of blade barrier (though that is a fine idea).

For what it's worth, I have the war and ocean domains.  Ocean gives me wall of ice as a domain spell, which does deal damage to creatures who break through and move through the space the wall was in.  It's enough to seriously damage or kill mooks, but it is a mere annoyance to the big bad monsters.

We are preparing for an assault on the main enterence to the calldera mines in Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, to save a captured ally.  We already got our butts kicked there once, so have a good idea that it involves hordes of things coming at us from multiple directions once the alarm is sounded.  We have a map of the area as well, so have a decent idea of where things will come from.  We just need a plan to deal with it all.  Wall of Stone looks like one piece of the plan.


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