# What are Tieflings good at?



## cmbarona

I love the idea of tieflings, flavor-wise. But I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around where and how they can be effective mechanics-wise. As I'm sure a great many of you have noticed, they simply lack the synergies needed to excel in a lot of classes and builds. Many people call them the weakest of the PHB races, and as I tried to build a number of characters with them, I'm starting to agree. Perhaps it's just that they lack a number of appropriate options for maximizing their effect, which will be handled better in later sourcebooks; however, this is nor a useful argument for those who only own the PHB.

Whatever the case, I pose the question for powergamers everywhere:

How can Tieflings be effective?


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## Thanee

This is my opinion on what race is good for what class summed up...



		Code:
	

LEADER       Dragonborn   Dwarf    Eladrin     Elf    Half-Elf  Halfling    Human   Tiefling
             +---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+
Battle       |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |         | Battle
Cleric       |  ++/+   |  ++/+   |    -    |    0    |    0    |    -    |   +/0   |    -    | Cleric
             |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |
             +---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+
Devoted      |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |         | Devoted
Cleric       |    0    |  ++/+   |    -    |  ++/+   |    0    |    -    |   +/0   |    -    | Cleric
             |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |
             +---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+
Inspiring    |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |         | Inspiring
Warlord      |   ++    |    -    |    -    |    -    |    +    |    0    |   +/0   |    +    | Warlord
             |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |
             +---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+
Tactical     |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |         | Tactical
Warlord      |    +    |    -    |    0    |    -    |    0    |    -    |   +/0   |    +    | Warlord
             |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |
             +---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+

DEFENDER     Dragonborn   Dwarf    Eladrin     Elf    Half-Elf  Halfling    Human   Tiefling
             +---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+
Great Weapon |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |         | Great Weapon
Fighter      |   ++    |    +    |    -    |    -    |    0    |    -    |   ++    |    -    | Fighter
             |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |
             +---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+
Guardian     |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |         | Guardian
Fighter      |    +    |    +    |    0    |    0    |    0    |    -    |    +    |    -    | Fighter
             |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |
             +---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+
Avenging     |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |         | Avenging
Paladin      |   ++    |    +    |    -    |   0/-   |    +    |    0    |   +/0   |    0    | Paladin
             |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |
             +---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+
Protecting   |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |         | Protecting
Paladin      |   ++    |    +    |    -    |   0/-   |    +    |    0    |   +/0   |    0    | Paladin
             |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |
             +---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+

STRIKER      Dragonborn   Dwarf    Eladrin     Elf    Half-Elf  Halfling    Human   Tiefling
             +---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+
Archer       |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |         | Archer
Ranger       |    -    |   0/-   |    +    |   ++    |    -    |    +    |   +/0   |    -    | Ranger
             |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |
             +---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+
Two-Blade    |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |         | Two-Blade
Ranger       |   +/0   |    +    |    0    |   +/0   |    -    |    -    |   +/0   |    -    | Ranger
             |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |
             +---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+
Brawny       |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |         | Brawny
Rogue        |    +    |    -    |    0    |    0    |    -    |    +    |    +    |    -    | Rogue
             |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |
             +---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+
Trickster    |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |         | Trickster
Rogue        |   0/-   |    -    |    +    |  ++/+   |    0    |   ++    |    +    |    0    | Rogue
             |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |
             +---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+
Deceptive    |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |         | Deceptive
Warlock      |    +    |    -    |    0    |    -    |   ++    |    +    |    +    |   ++    | Warlock
             |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |
             +---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+
Scourge      |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |         | Scourge
Warlock      |    0    |    +    |    0    |    -    |   ++    |    0    |    +    |    +    | Warlock
             |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |
             +---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+

CONTROLLER   Dragonborn   Dwarf    Eladrin     Elf    Half-Elf  Halfling    Human   Tiefling
             +---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+
Control      |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |         | Control
Wizard       |    -    |    0    |  ++/+   |    +    |    -    |    -    |   ++    |    +    | Wizard
             |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |
             +---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+
War          |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |         | War
Wizard       |   0/-   |    0    |   ++    |   +/0   |    -    |    -    |   ++    |   ++    | Wizard
             |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |         |
             +---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+

Legend           ++ perfect match     + good match        0 alright           - no good match


Bye
Thanee


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## Piratecat

Thanee, nice chart.


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## Mr. Teapot

Primarily, they're good Warlocks.  By default, they are ironically best at the Fey Pact warlocks, but by focusing on Fire and Fear powers (Hellfire Blood, man) they can be good at any Pact.

That's the only class so far where they get bonuses to both a primary and secondary stat.  They'll weirdly make good Bards when PHBII comes out.

Then they're pretty good (get bonus to primary stat) at Paladin, Wizard, and Artificer.  And they get a bonus to a secondary stat for some other classes (Clerics, Rogues, both kinds of Warlords, Barbarians).


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## yesnomu

They make rather excellent Wizards, especially if you use plenty of Fire powers. The +2 Cha means you don't need to spend any points on it for Spell Focus.


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## Nifft

Thanee's chart has the right of it.

Tieflings are the only race IMHO that covers every role well.

Striker: Cha-based Warlock. Excellent.
Controller: Wizard. Use lots of fire.
Defender: Paladin; quite decent.
Leader: A most excellent Warlord.

Cheers, -- N


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## DracoSuave

Tieflings make VERY decent Paladins.  

1) You get a bonus to a relevent stat.
2) You have an encounter ability that triggers off being attacked.  Defenders get attacked.  Therefore you'll use your encounter ability.  It is also based off your primary stat.
3) Bloodhunt is awesome.
4) Fire resistance is more defense, tho narrow.
5) Bloodhunt is awesome.

As well, they make -very- decent Warlords of all four builds.  You're the only race that's actually optimal for Resourceful Warlords, and regardless, the feat that turns Infernal Wrath into a 'everyone gets combat advantage against that enemy' counter-blast of awesome.  But regardless, you don't NEED Martial Power to make them good because:

Bloodhunt makes Tieflings a lot more viable.  It seems like '+1 to a condition' which is situational, until you realize it's +1 to half of all attacks that don't involve minions.  That's not bad, not bad at all.  It's hard to factor into builds tho, because you don't add it in constantly.  So people go 'I'd rather a +1 all the time' without realizing that such a thing does not exist.


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## Mal Malenkirk

They are very solid wizards and warlocks.

But to me, they are great charismatic paladins.  I mean, _great_.  Ironic, I know, but it might be their best class and they might be the best race for it.

Next PC I make is a tiefling paladin.

Pros

+2 to charisma 
+2 to Int (so I can use Dex as my dump stat and still have solid reflex defense)

+1 to bloodied foe 

Infernal wrath (which keys off charisma, your primary stat).  To use infernal wrath you need to get hit first.  This happens all the time to a defender.  It's their job!

A tiefling charismatic paladin using wrath on a bloodied foe is one point to hit ahead of a bloodied dragonborn charismatic paladin.  And he'll do more damage on that attack.

Resist fire.  Much more useful for a defender because now you give options to your wizard.  When placing his flaming shpere he can pretty much ignore you if it will allow him to tag another monster.  If push come to shove, he can also include you in the area of a fire spell if it will allow him to hit at least one more monsters.  Your resistance to fire makes the tradeoff worthwhile.

Yes, charismatic tiefling paladin rule!


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## Gort

Nifft said:


> Thanee's chart has the right of it.
> 
> Tieflings are the only race IMHO that covers every role well.
> 
> Striker: Cha-based Warlock. Excellent.
> Controller: Wizard. Use lots of fire.
> Defender: Paladin; quite decent.
> Leader: A most excellent Warlord.
> 
> Cheers, -- N




What, are you forgetting humans all of a sudden? And tiefling warlords really aren't that good since they don't have a strength bonus, which is the basis of pretty much all of their powers.


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## Mal Malenkirk

They are pretty good warlord.  The best tactical warlord, IMO, and competent inspiring warlord (though in that role the DBs are untouchables).

If the foe is bloodied, their lack of a +2 to STR is pretty much negated.  If they can use infernal wrath (and Warlord, like paladins, have an easy time qualifying) they also more than negate their lack of a STR bonus.  Since fight rarely last more than 5 rounds, they routinely negate their lack of STR bonus 40 to 60% of the time.


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## Zsig

I think Tieflings are a bit underrated due to their abilities, but, with them you can basicly offset a "bad" race/class combo, just like some other "bad" combos.

For example, Dwarves offset the Str they don't get with Dwarven Weapon Training. Same with the Eladrin and their Eladrin Soldier. (Which does its job at earlier levels)

Halflings or even Half-elves on the other hand can't do much about it.


Tieflings can get almost as good with that bonus against bloodied enemies, although, the good thing about it is that it's attack bonus, so it works no matter what you are. And the classes that already combines well with them get even more out of it (Wizard, Warlock, Paladin to name a few).


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## Nifft

Gort said:


> What, are you forgetting humans all of a sudden? And tiefling warlords really aren't that good since they don't have a strength bonus, which is the basis of pretty much all of their powers.



 Tiefling Warlord is that good.

With Opening Shove and Commander's Strike, you have two At-Wills that use someone else's Strength bonus. One of them is a Weapon vs. Reflex power. Yeah.

Once you get a flaming weapon, you can take a feat to give yourself +1 to attack and damage with all Weapon powers. Yeah.

You will want a Strength-based Cleric around to help you land your Encounter and Daily powers, but you are perfectly capable of laying down the hurt AND heal without much Strength at all.

Cheers, -- N


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## Danceofmasks

They'd be awesome bards when that's available ... but right now, tiefling pyro makes the _best_ wizard.


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## Stalker0

With hellfire blood and a flaming weapon, tieflings do just fine in the fighter department.

Further, with their fire res, wizards can just drop scorching bursts on them with little issue, so if they get surrounded, no problem!!

And people seriously underestimate bloodhunt. Dragonborns have to be bloodied to get their benefit, and being bloodied all the time is dangerous. Unless your fighting minions, your enemies WILL be bloodied at some point, and that's a solid bonus for the tiefling.


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## Cam Banks

I find it amusing that they're a better fey warlock than infernal warlock.

Cheers,
Cam


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## ppaladin123

They are also great swordmages and artificers obviously.


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## Gort

Nifft said:


> Tiefling Warlord is that good.
> 
> With Opening Shove and Commander's Strike, you have two At-Wills that use someone else's Strength bonus. One of them is a Weapon vs. Reflex power. Yeah.
> 
> Once you get a flaming weapon, you can take a feat to give yourself +1 to attack and damage with all Weapon powers. Yeah.
> 
> You will want a Strength-based Cleric around to help you land your Encounter and Daily powers, but you are perfectly capable of laying down the hurt AND heal without much Strength at all.
> 
> Cheers, -- N




I think I have to dispute this, though you make a good point about the at-will powers. Obviously at the end of the day we're only talking about a +1 here, but the idea of needing an extra leader so your leader can do anything but at-wills effectively just doesn't sit right with me.

I guess the thing that turns me off about Tieflings is that they don't have a really iconic power like elves, dwarves, halflings and dragonborn have. They just get a small to-hit and damage bonus. Not really as game-changing as the other powers, though no-doubt effective.


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## Vayden

Gort said:


> I guess the thing that turns me off about Tieflings is that they don't have a really iconic power like elves, dwarves, halflings and dragonborn have. They just get a small to-hit and damage bonus. Not really as game-changing as the other powers, though no-doubt effective.




Tell that to my 15th level Tiefling Paladin - her fiery rebuke infernal wrath is quite iconic.

Quote the striker from the party: "You did how much damage with an at-will??"


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## DracoSuave

Stalker0 said:


> And people seriously underestimate bloodhunt. Dragonborns have to be bloodied to get their benefit, and being bloodied all the time is dangerous. Unless your fighting minions, your enemies WILL be bloodied at some point, and that's a solid bonus for the tiefling.




Truth.

Dragonborns, in fact, have two abilities that are anti-synergistic.  One gives them benefits for being bloodied, and the other makes it harder to keep them bloodied to get the benefit.  Their bonus is very situational and you can't rely on it to be effective... which is why they have other abilities to make up for it.

Whereas the Tiefling synergizes with -dealing damage.-  Every character class in 4e that there is, was, and ever will be does damage.  That means that at the very least there is NO class that bloodhunt doesn't work well with.

And I forgot to mention flaming weapon makes Tieflings the most accurate of the Charisma paladins, and if you go for an all out 20 Int build for an Int-based character, allows you a +6 to hit non-ac-defenses with fire... until you've damaged them which brings it to +7... at level 1.

Many physical attackers would be happy to get a +7 to hit -AC- under any circumstances.

18 Charisma Pally, +1 flaming fullblade, can have +10 to hit AC at level 2 which is rogue country for accuracy. +11 with 20 charisma, dealing 1d12+7 high crit damage with basic attacks, and if they bother to hit you, that becomes +12 to hit for 1d12+12.  -Without- Bloodhunt.  Assuming you're only using basic attacks.  You then use Enfeebling Strike or Bolstering Strike to make up for your lack of shield... and your Encounter and Dailies are used at ranged to open battles and to pull monsters and get them to bloodied ASAP.

Yeah, Tieflings are bad because why, exactly?


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## RefinedBean

They're good at hugging, and ventriloquism.  That's not in the PHB, but it's the honest truth.

And though it's been mentioned, they make AWESOME Warlords, primarily because you don't feel bad about taking a power that goes against your presence choice, since your tertiary stat (Cha instead of Int or vice-versa) will be at least decent.  Many a Tactical Warlord has powers that base off his Cha, just because they're the best choice for the party.

But this might be because I just made a high-level Tiefling Tactical Warlord, and I love him to all sorts of death.


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## DracoSuave

RefinedBean said:


> They're good at hugging, and ventriloquism.  That's not in the PHB, but it's the honest truth.
> 
> And though it's been mentioned, they make AWESOME Warlords, primarily because you don't feel bad about taking a power that goes against your presence choice, since your tertiary stat (Cha instead of Int or vice-versa) will be at least decent.  Many a Tactical Warlord has powers that base off his Cha, just because they're the best choice for the party.
> 
> But this might be because I just made a high-level Tiefling Tactical Warlord, and I love him to all sorts of death.




Yeah, the Tiefling Tac-Lord in our group has been hugging himself some Inspiry stuff as well.

Now that MP is out, I even offered him the opportunity to switch to Resourceful, which is actually better than it looks.


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## Beckett

Cam Banks said:


> I find it amusing that they're a better fey warlock than infernal warlock.




I've seen Hellfire blood turn infernal into a pretty potent choice. It's also been very handy in my fire-based wizard.

As has been said, tieflings make good warlords, however you want to do it. My tactical warlord is still able to get good bonuses on charisma based powers. The new resourceful warlord from Martial Power seems custom made for tieflings.


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## outsider

Swordmage.  You attack with Int.  You have a tonne of fire based powers(or you could simply use a flaming sword, or take the anarch of shyr paragon path to use it's stance to add fire to all your attacks).  You're a defender, so you'll put infernal wrath to good use.  Blood hunt is fantastic(as it is for all classes).  Fire resistance is nice(as it is for all classes).  About the only thing tieflings get that Swordmage doesn't take advantage of is the +2 Cha.


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## scarik

WHy Tieflings are good: some of this has been said

Tieflings spend no points for Spell Focus

Hellfire Blood: A Fey or Star pact Warlock can get a Fire or Fear power at every level except 9, 13, & 17 and that can be fixed by multi-classing with Spellscar or Wizard since you can have an 18 Cha and Int to start. 
Wizards can have all fire powers as well.
Paladins and Swordmages can use Flaming Weapons.

All of those can get a 20 in their primary stat.

Also, Bloodhunt.


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## cmbarona

Wow. These have been some fantastic replies, and I'm glad this is generating some discussion. But now that I've seen how they can be effective, why does it seem they get such a bad rap? Am I just imagining that?


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## DracoSuave

Cause a lot of their upside isn't a direct 'THIS IS UPSIDE' type deal like Dragonborn's breath and healing surge, or an elf's rerolling, or a straight bonus to something that you can write on your sheet.  They compare the encounter powers, and let's face it, Infernal Wrath isn't as good as Fey Step or Dragon Breath, and that's what gets the focus.  But really, the synergy of their abilities plus a quality feat that is Oh Exploitable puts them over the top.  No other race can take a feat to get a +1 bonus to hit like a tiefling can, and that alone makes them mighty.


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## Danceofmasks

Plus, there's _still_ some of that I R a gnome replacement thing going on.
Not that gnomes weren't the _most powerful_ PHB race in 3.5e, but most people didn't recognise that either.


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## DEFCON 1

Gort said:


> And tiefling warlords really aren't that good since they don't have a strength bonus, which is the basis of pretty much all of their powers.



But because of the +2 to INT, it allows you to use the two 16's point buy to get 16 STR and 18 INT.  And if you use Commander's Strike often, it more than covers the fact you don't have an 18 STR.  And honestly... when I played my tiefling taclord, I was using Commander's Strike probably every other round (or every third round at a minimum) because our fighter, paladin and/or rogue was _always_ in a position to do more massive amounts of damage than I could, considering they were adding +4 to all damage due to my 18 INT.

Speaking as someone who DMs a game and is playing in a game (and thus knows the rules much more detailed than pretty much any of the other players), I LOVED being a taclord.  I was always analyzing the battlegrid... figuring out where to move, how to set up positioning with Wolf Pack Tactics, and how to get our fighter, pally, and rogue into better positions to allow them to attack extra times via Commander's Strike.  I cannot stress enough that if you know the rules backwards and forwards, playing a taclord is SO much fun.

Unfortunately my taclord bit it via a TPK.  But at least my new character will be a wizard... which will allow me to do the same sort of tacticaly thinking and analysis at range.  And to address the original point of this thread... this wizard will also be a tiefling, because I'm getting him up to a 20 INT, will have the Hellfire Blood and Astral Fire feats, and will be raining fire down on everyone's heads with a +8 to hit at our starting 4th level for fire attacks... something you cannot really achieve easily otherwise with other races.


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## jabberwocky

DEFCON 1 said:


> And to address the original point of this thread... this wizard will also be a tiefling, because I'm getting him up to a 20 INT, will have the Hellfire Blood and Astral Fire feats, and will be raining fire down on everyone's heads with a +8 to hit at our starting 4th level for fire attacks... something you cannot really achieve easily otherwise with other races.





Nitpick : Hellfire blood and astral fire won't stack - they're both feat bonuses.  But I agree, tiefling fire wizards are awesome.


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## garyh

jabberwocky said:


> Nitpick : Hellfire blood and astral fire won't stack - they're both feat bonuses.  But I agree, tiefling fire wizards are awesome.




Double nitpick  - Astral Fire gives +1/2/3 to damage at each tier, and Hellfire Blood gives +1 to damage AND to hit, no tier escalation.  So once you hit Paragon, take both, and you get +1 to hit and +2 to damage.  Sure, some overlap, but taking both is still a good idea at paragon and epic tiers.


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## WalterKovacs

I've been running a Tactlord Tiefling for a while, with 16 STR and 18 INT. It was partly because it's a DM run PC. They needed a leader, and most of the time the PC would be allowing the players to do something.

Hellfire Blood though is the real winner, letting you get an effective +2 to any attack stat if you can get the right keyword on the power (very easy for weapon based characters once you can get your hands on the appropriate weapon). This lets you go with options other races might not take, such as a star pact warlock with 16 in CON, INT and CHA, who can multiclass to have a fire or fear based power at every level with effectively 18 in all three stats for the purposes of those powers. Also, you can be an effectively 22 INT wizard or swordmage specializing in fire spells, or an effectively 22 CHA paladin with the right weapon. Combined with infernal wrath and bloodhunt, they get a lot of "+1 to hits", which are very hard to come by in 4e.


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## Byronic

cmbarona said:


> Wow. These have been some fantastic replies, and I'm glad this is generating some discussion. But now that I've seen how they can be effective, why does it seem they get such a bad rap? Am I just imagining that?




Well for me it's just the Catholic/Emo element. I don't like the horns and hell thing (my hells are a bit more inventive) and a don't like names like Chant and such.

So they got refluffed.


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## Nom

What I find amusing is that the PH says that Tieflings make good Warlords (OK), Warlocks (definitely) and Rogues (huh?  You meant Wizard, right?).

Tiefling rogue?  You get an ability boost in the secondary score of one build and to your dump score.  Oh, you do get a Stealth boost, which helps make up for the boost to Int rather than Dex.  And, rogue are mostly doing their darndest never to be hit, which sorta limits the applicability of Infernal Wrath.  Tieflings don't bring much to the Rogue that isn't just generic tiefling (ie fire res, bloodhunt).


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## DracoSuave

Well, if you only get hit once an encounter, that's enough for Infernal Wraths.


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## cmbarona

Honestly, I have to agree. Tiefling Rogues may fit the theme of a trickster or devilish sort of Rogue flavor-wise (and the Bluff bonus is nice), but that lack of a Dex bonus is definitely felt. I'm suddenly wishing there was a Rogue build that took better advantage of Bluff bonuses (as Rattling does for Intimidate), but alas, 'tis not so.


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## Tony Vargas

Tieflings can make pretty good strikers, in general, with thier multiple potential attack (and damage) bonuses (bloodhunt, infernal wrath, hellfire blood), even if the stats don't line up that well, for all of them.  INT & CHA is ideal for Warlocks, and works quite well for warlords (and the resourceful build and Infernal Commander PP were added just to make darn shure) and wizards, and isn't bad for the occassional paladin or artful dodger rogue, either.  The skill bonuses also are good for a Rogue or Warlorck (though warlocks don't get stealth trained, they can still make excellent use of it, once they acquire it).  

The INT/CHA really seems to push them towards arcanists, though.  And, the whole horns & tails diabolical bloodline thing really puts a crimp in the RP aspects, closing the door to a lot of RP concepts.


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## Atanatotatos

They're great swordmages. Bonus to int and great with fire powers, of which swordmages have plenty.
Also, Martial Power made tiefling viable for most martial classes, including fighter; lots of dmg. You'll probably suck badly with a tiefling fighter at low levels, but later, when you have a better to-hit, have raised your strenght and own a flaming weapon, you'll be hitting as much as most fighters and do much more damage.
It's a great race but requires some thought outside of a couple of classes.


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