# Poison - creatures who use it!



## Taren Nighteyes (Dec 5, 2009)

Hey everyone,

I've got a player who would like me to modify how the creatures who do not have a natural poison attack use poison.  Let me provide an example:

Drow or the Yaun-Ti cultists are humanoid, but they get a standard attack that delivers poison.  The player in my group argues they should have to take a standard action to reapply the poison the their blades after hitting once (as the rules state for characters using poison).

What is the general consensus on those creatures using poison and the rules around poison....

Thanks for any help!

Ray


----------



## AbdulAlhazred (Dec 5, 2009)

There are two reasons I would think it is the way it is. One is its just vastly simpler for the DM than having to track the status of every enemy's weapons. Secondly how interesting would the poison really be if it effectively only ever worked once? 

There are any number of ways PCs can employ poison, not all of them require a reapplication of the poison after every hit. There are magically venemous weapons, alchemical poison, DMG poison, and poisoner feats. There may even be others. I wouldn't get too caught up in arguments about "realism", 4e simply isn't built around that, its built around adventure fiction and emulating things like fantasy novels and movies, not reality.


----------



## frankthedm (Dec 5, 2009)

Taren Nighteyes said:


> What is the general consensus on those creatures using poison and the rules around poison....



Generally non player characters operate by different rules than player characters. 

That said, IF the foe's write up lists a number of doses of a specific poison as gear, i'd say that foes is probably supposed to re apply the toxin as an action. Otherwise i'd say the toxin get applied by supernatural boon from the critter's benefactor or applied as a non action by the critter [bringing blade across fangs, etc.]


----------



## Mort_Q (Dec 5, 2009)

Taren Nighteyes said:


> The player in my group argues they should have to take a standard action to reapply the poison the their blades after hitting once (as the rules state for characters using poison).




That's only true of alchemical poisons though.  There are powers and other items that do poison damage.

Besides, the best part about 4e is that the NPCs don't have to follow the same rules as the PCs.

I would just say that the NPCs are just better at it than the PCs are, and if they want to get better, they can take the Poisoner Multi-class feats.


----------



## 1of3 (Dec 5, 2009)

Explain to the players that those guys are so good, they can do it as a free action. Allow the players to take a feat to do the same.


----------



## chitzk0i (Dec 5, 2009)

There are feats you can take that let you apply poison as less than a standard action.  One of them is a style feat I forget the name of.  Another way is the Poisoner multiclass powers.  These individuals just practice enough that they can do it better than the default character.


----------



## DracoSuave (Dec 6, 2009)

Well, if the poison requires some form of recharging after an attack, that's already accounted for in the recharge 4,5,6 in the ability, if it has that.

Otherwise, the poison's not one of those 'All the poison got used up' sort of deals.

For example, let's say I have a syringe and it is FULL of air.  I stab you with the syringe, and I plunge it just a BIT.  Not the whole thing, just a bit.

Now you have been poisoned with an airbubble and will probably die, but I don't need to recharge my death-needle.

If it can be done mundanely -that easily- it's not hard to imagine evil poison cultists worshiping the god of poison with their poison blades and poison powers being able to use similiar stuff, except with a hint of magic so that instead of air, it injects a bit of their blood.  Not very harmful if a PC uses it, but yuan-ti aren't exactly the most edible critters...


----------



## Starfox (Dec 6, 2009)

Your player is wrong and you don't need to change anything. A PC that uses poison applies the poison effect ON Top of the normal effect of an attack, for a poison-using NPC it is an Inherent Part of their attack.

Potentially, you could create a power usable by a PC class that makes a poison attack without having to apply the poison beforehand; that would represent the same level of poison proficiency these NPCs have. Such a power might already exist; I've not bothered to check. If such a power exists, you can be sure it is balanced so that it is not strictly better than other non-poison powers of the same level. This is what the NPCs have; they do have a poison attack, but the poison is a part of the balance of the attack, and not strictly better or worse than a similar non-poison attack from an equivalent creature. If you only let them use their poison attack once before reapplying the poison, they would be worse than equivalent non-poison powers.


----------



## DracoSuave (Dec 7, 2009)

Not to mention, if you had a class (a full class, not a multiclass feat set up) that was based around the idea of applying poisons, at -worst- they'd be doing so as a minor action to gain some form of damage boost, in the same way some other strikers work.

Making it a standard action means they're only doing half the damage (and therefore half the threat) of a monster of their level would.

If you're going to have them spend actions to poison, that'd better be a damn nasty poison.  You could have it work similiar to the Medani Inquisitive from the Eberron Campaign Guide, but instead of having them take a minor action to aim, they take a minor action to poison.

Otherwise, a quick spritz of poison from a spraybottle or a quick cut of their own flesh (if they have poison blood) should suffice as a flavor suggestion only.



> Explain to the players that those guys are so good, they can do it as a free action. Allow the players to take a feat to do the same.




Or a class, or reskin a class like Ranger or Avenger to work in that way.


----------



## Infiniti2000 (Dec 7, 2009)

Taren Nighteyes said:


> Drow or the Yaun-Ti cultists are humanoid, but they get a standard attack that delivers poison.  The player in my group argues they should have to take a standard action to reapply the poison the their blades after hitting once (as the rules state for characters using poison).



 Tell him that NPCs and PCs can use the same rules once he re-stats his PC as a minion.  Or, throws away most of his powers.  Or, no longer gets a second wind or more than 1 surge per tier.  In short, they don't follow the same rules.


----------



## Ryujin (Dec 7, 2009)

Even for PCs, special attacks (powers) assume that whatever additional action required (drawing missiles, etc.) is included in the attack action.


----------



## Taren Nighteyes (Dec 7, 2009)

*Thanks!*

Thanks guys - this really helps me put the situation in a different light and hopefully better explain/debate the issue.  I will get final ruling, but like to have everyone in agreement instead of just laying down the law.

Thanks again!

Taren Nighteyes


----------

