# Irongorn, the Heavy Ranger (ranger/pit fighter)



## Zaruthustran (May 29, 2008)

I like melee characters, and after looking over my books I came up with a pretty solid build that kicks butt as a striker but is as solid in defense as a defender, all while having more than a few tricks up its sleeve.

The core synergy is the ranger’s use of the Wisdom ability. It powers the ranger’s flashier moves, contributing to shifts, pushes, and various bonuses. Couple that with Pit Fighter, which has a 16th level feature that lets you add Wis to weapon damage, and you wind up with a heavy-hitting fellow that’s also light on his feet. And then add in the fact that many ranger powers let you make two attacks (effectively doubling the bonus from Pit Fighter), and you’ve got a ginsu-that-walks. 

This build is up to 16th level. For future levels, keep bumping Wisdom and Strength. The 21st level bump will increment Con to 17, unlocking Axe Mastery (crit with axes on 19-20), which is good because at that level this guy’s crits would do an additional + 4d10 damage (on top of magic bonuses). With so many of his attack powers allowing two or more attack rolls, he’ll crit often. 

So here he is: Irongorn, the heavy ranger. 

Human Ranger
Paragon path: Pitfighter
Stats at 1st level:
Str 18
Con 15
Dex 11
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 8

Stats at 16th level:
Str 22
Con 16
Dex 12
Int 11
Wis 18
Cha 9

Skills: Athletics, Dungeoneering, Endurance, Heal, Nature, Perception (human bonus), Streetwise (fighter skill) 

*Feats*
Ranger bonus: Toughness
Human bonus: Chainmail
1st level: Scalemail
2nd level: Platemail
4th level: Weapon Focus: Battleaxe
6th level: Lethal Hunter
8th level: Action Surge
10th level: Fighter multiclass
11th level: Combat Anticipation
12th level: Plate Armor Specialization
14th level: Deadly Axe
16th level: Devastating Critical

*Essential Equipment*
Plate mail, two battleaxes (I’d go with a Terror axe for the primary and Lightning for the secondary, but for simplicity, we’ll assume all gear is basic and nonmagical)

*Basic attack*: Battleaxe, + 16, 1d10 + 12  (+ 8 level, +6 Str, +2 proficiency attack; + 6 Str, +4 Wis, +2 Weapon Focus damage)
Crit: 22 damage + 3d10

+2d8 damage if hunter’s quarry

That’s a damage range of 13-22 on a single 1[w] attack, or 15-38 if the target is the quarry. The thing is, most every ranger attack power allows for more than one attack, and some do 2[w] or more _per hit_.

*Defenses*
AC 28 (10 base, +8 level, +8 armor, +1 Pit Fighter armor optimization, +1 Plate Armor Specialization)
Fort: 26 (10 base, +8 level, +1 class, +6 str, +1 human)
Reflex: 21 (10 base, +8 level, +1 class, + 1 Dex, +1 human)
Will: 23 (10 base, +8 level bonus, + 4 Wis, +1 human)

All defenses +1 vs anything except Melee attacks (Combat Anticipation)

*Powers*
At will:
Careful Attack (human bonus)
Nimble Strike
Twin Strike

*Encounter: *
P: All Bets Are Off (2[w], and make secondary attack)
13: Armor Splinter (two attacks, 1 [w] each. If one attack hits, target takes penalty to AC = Wis bonus. If both hit, it’s worse)
7: Sweeping Whirlwind (close burst 1, target all enemies in burst. 1[w], and push = Wis mod and knock prone)
3: Disruptive Strike (interrupt when you or ally attacked, 1[w] and target takes penalty to attack roll = 3 + Wis mod)

*Daily*:
15: Blade Cascade (keep rolling attacks until you roll a miss. 2[w] per attack)
9: Attacks on the Run (move and make two attacks, 3[w] per attack)
5: Two-Wolf Pounce (two attacks, then shift 2 and make third attack)

*Utility*:
P: Deadly Payback (reaction when damaged; gain +2 to attacks and damage vs opponent that damaged you until end of next turn)
16: Evade the Blow (interrupt when hit; shift 1)
10: Open the Range (interrupt when enemy moves adjacent; shift 1, then move = 1 + wis mod)
6: Weave through the Fray (interrupt when enemy moves adjacent; shift = wis mod)
2: Yield Ground (reaction when hit; shift = wis mod, and gain +2 to all defenses until end of next turn)

*Paragon Action Point bonus*: Extra Damage Action. When you spend an action point to take an extra action, add 1/2 level to the damage dealt by any of your standard action attacks this turn. 

The synergies are great. The ideal scenario is to get attacked and take a bit of damage. That triggers Deadly Payback as a reaction. On your turn, begin by spending an action point to attack with Armor Splinter (with the +2 bonus from Deadly Payback and the +3 bonus from Action Surge, one attack is likely to hit) causing at least a 4 point penalty to armor class--remember to add 1/2 your level to the damage of each attack thanks to Extra Damage Action. Then for your normal standard action, finish the poor guy off with Blade Cascade. The bonus from Deadly Payback is still there, but now the target also has a penalty to AC. You can keep rolling attacks until you finally roll a miss, and since it’s all still the same turn you keep the damage bonuses from both Deadly Payback and from Extra Damage Action: a total of +10 damage. Since Blade Cascade is a 2[w] attack, each attack does 2d10+ 12 + 10 damage (a spread of 24-42 per hit, not counting magic weapons or criticals, or the +2d8 to the first attack from hunter's quarry). 

Ouch.

_Edit: option 4 from one of the below posts, dealing with low Dex by ditching TWF and TWD_


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## FadedC (May 29, 2008)

That does seem pretty insane, we may have found out first broken combo. Seems like  blade cascade is the main culprit, it might need some kind of upper limit to number of attacks.


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## MindWanderer (May 29, 2008)

Nice.  I'm not convinced all that works exactly by RAW (e.g. Deadly Payback mentions being hit, not taking damage, in your blurb), but I'll likely be stealing some of that.  I have a minotaur ranger building in the back of my head... and it ain't pretty.


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## Shroomy (May 29, 2008)

Its a nice synergy, but since it can only be done once per day, it may not be as broken as it appears at first glance.


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## Celebrim (May 29, 2008)

Shroomy said:
			
		

> Its a nice synergy, but since it can only be done once per day, it may not be as broken as it appears at first glance.




Yeah, but pretty soon someone is going to figure out a way to debuff the target such that the ranger only needs like a 2 to hit.  Then his combo is going to average like 800 damage at 15th level.  

At that point, absent story based time pressure, the players will be strongly tempted to rest after each blade cascade so that they can go into each battle with their mega powerful combo ready.


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## Moon-Lancer (May 29, 2008)

hunters quarry only works on a single attack


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## Shroomy (May 29, 2008)

Celebrim said:
			
		

> Yeah, but pretty soon someone is going to figure out a way to debuff the target such that the ranger only needs like a 2 to hit.  Then his combo is going to average like 800 damage at 15th level.
> 
> At that point, absent story based time pressure, the players will be strongly tempted to rest after each blade cascade so that they can go into each battle with their mega powerful combo ready.




Perhaps, but then again, its a melee attack, so I hope that the ranger is not fighting someone who is flying.  Also, it would suck to use these powers against a target that is insubstantial or if the ranger was weakened.


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## Sojorn (May 29, 2008)

Huh? I thought Hunter's Quarry damage was only once a round, did they change that?

Edit: Yup. That's a ninjaing.


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## Zaruthustran (May 29, 2008)

Good catch MindWanderer, and my bad: the trigger is "You take damage from a melee attack". I'll edit the original post. Also, it's true that Quarry only works on the first attack. I've edited the post.

And yeah, that ideal situation really is just an ideal situation. It's the dramatic, end-of-the-dungeon, finishing move. And it'd really, really suck if you rolled a 1 on that first cascade. ;p

That said, I do think Str/Wis melee Ranger  +  Pit Fighter is a solid combo, if you beef it up with TWD and armor feats. If you're in the front lines you'll need the AC, and with the need to pump Wis you won't have a high Dex. Of course, your array utility powers can let you choose to dance away (FAR away) if an enemies get in your face. 

If anything's broken, it's Pit Fighter. I've built similar characters using cleric and paladin as base classes; they both have build options with Str as primary and Wis as secondary.

Heck, there's an at-will Paladin power, Holy Strike, that deals 1[w] + Str + Wis. Get a dwarf paladin and add Pit Fighter on to that...


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## Nine Hands (May 29, 2008)

From what I am reading on page 268 (PHB), you can only take ONE Immediate Action in a round.


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## Zaruthustran (May 29, 2008)

Good one. This is why I love ENWorld's rules forum. 

I'll edit the post to remove the disruptive strike. It was a nice 1[w] damage bonus, but not the meat of the combo.


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## Spatula (May 29, 2008)

You need Dex 13 to qualify for the TWF feats.  You need Con 15 to take the Plate proficiency feat, which you don't have at 2nd level, but that could presumably be easily moved to a later level.


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## Nine Hands (May 29, 2008)

Spatula said:
			
		

> You need Dex 13 to qualify for the TWF feats.  You need Con 15 to take the Plate proficiency feat, which you don't have at 2nd level, but that could presumably be easily moved to a later level.




Remember you can retrain feats too


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## Zaruthustran (May 29, 2008)

Drat. Striking those feats would drop 1 damage, and 1 from both AC and Reflex. 

Couple options:

1. Start with 13 con and 13 dex, and pick up Axe Mastery at 24th. Have to forgo Plate for awhile, though. 
2. Swap Con for Dex and trade the three Axe feats for weapon proficiency: bastard sword, armor specialization: plate, and blood thirst, picking up Heavy Blade Mastery at 21st. You lose the gee-whiz of the big crits, but you gain +1 attack (from the higher proficiency bonus), +2 to damage on bloodied foes, +1 AC, and a higher Reflex defense.
3. Go dwarf. Start with 18 Str (at a whopping 15 points), 14 Con, 15 Wis, 12 Dex, everything else 10 or 8. Add TWF and TWD after 11th level. At 28th level you'll wind up with 26 Str, 22 Wis, 17 Con, 14 Dex. Since Plate, TWF, and TWF won't be available at Heroic, take Dwarven Weapon Training instead. You'll lose on AC & Reflex, but gain on damage.
4. Start with 15 Con (for plate at 2nd level, and default 17 con for axe mastery at 21st level) and 14 Wis. All stat bumps to Wis. Skip TWF and TWD. Spend feats on Plate Specialization (+1 AC) and Lightning Reflexes (+2 Reflex) instead. You're a net +1 Reflex and -1 damage.


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## FadedC (May 29, 2008)

The main way it becomes is when you find a way to stack enough bonuses so you only miss on a 1. It seems like that is quite doable just based on things we have seen already. 

It's only usable once, but that doesn't help when the ancient red dragon or orcus get killed in a single round of attacks. But luckily it's easy enough to fix just by saying no more then 4-6 hits in a row.


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## ender_wiggin (May 29, 2008)

....

An ability that does not put a cap on DPS. Unless we're missing something, this is a gross oversight on the developer's part.


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## Lord Sessadore (May 29, 2008)

I would say a reasonable limit to the attacks would be ... something like your base Dex bonus x2.  It is a daily after all.  

Though the game is supposedly built so that you should have to roll between 8-12 to hit usually, right?  I think you'll be hard-pressed to find a suite of bonuses that will give you +7 to +11 to hit that you can rely on.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I have a feeling that would be like the stars aligning


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## Victim (May 29, 2008)

Lord Sessadore said:
			
		

> I would say a reasonable limit to the attacks would be ... something like your base Dex bonus x2.  It is a daily after all.
> 
> Though the game is supposedly built so that you should have to roll between 8-12 to hit usually, right?  I think you'll be hard-pressed to find a suite of bonuses that will give you +7 to +11 to hit that you can rely on.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I have a feeling that would be like the stars aligning




It doesn't seem too unlikely, actually.  Armor Splinter is an encounter power right at level 13.  That's ~3-5 points of AC.  Action Surge is another +3 bonus.  That's without any outside powers - Leading the Attack would come in handy.


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## Saeviomagy (May 29, 2008)

Isn't there a whole bunch of powers by the level this guy is at that are "someone who attacks you misses"?


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## FadedC (May 29, 2008)

Saeviomagy said:
			
		

> Isn't there a whole bunch of powers by the level this guy is at that are "someone who attacks you misses"?




A whole bunch of PC powers, but unless your attacking a PC that's not too relevent. There might be the occasional monster who has that power, but I don't think that's enough to unbreak it.

For getting major hit bonuses, just using splinter the armor from an 18 wisdom ranger (as used by the OP) and lead the attack from an 18 int warlod will give you +9. Flank and that's +11. Should be enough to get off a 10-20 hit instant kill.

For fixing it, I definitely wouldn't allow it more then 6 hits. Even 4 might be preferable. It may be a daily, but if you use the pure damage daily powers as an example they don't seem to be intended to do all that much more damage then normal....even 4 times as much seems far more then normal.


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## Shabe (May 29, 2008)

Yeah the blade cascade seems to be a bit insane, perhaps if you just limited it to a maximum of 1/2 your level of attacks to fit elegently in with everything else. But then again you are banking everything against a 1/20 roll, given the luck our players have been having the past few sessions, we'd have got in 3 hits if we were lucky, thing is i'm not even sure if a 1 is declared as an automatic miss, you may be able to get infinite damage.


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## Steamhammer (May 29, 2008)

I guess the Pit-Fighter Paragon requires you to have Fighter-Class, doesn't it? Unless that would be houseruled.


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## Khuxan (May 29, 2008)

Steamhammer said:
			
		

> I guess the Pit-Fighter Paragon requires you to have Fighter-Class, doesn't it? Unless that would be houseruled.




He takes the fighter multiclass feat at level 10.


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## GoodKingJayIII (May 29, 2008)

Has it been confirmed that taking the multiclass initiate feat qualifies a character for paragon paths of that class?  I read the Multiclass feat section, but don't recall an answer one way or another, and don't have my books handy.


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## Zaruthustran (May 30, 2008)

Yep, multiclass qualify you for that class's paragon paths. 

Also, I changed the OP to ditch TWF and TWD.


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## Dracollich (May 30, 2008)

FadedC said:
			
		

> ...lead the attack from an 18 int warlod will give you +9. Flank and that's +11. Should be enough to get off a 10-20 hit instant kill.




I'm not sure how Lead the Attack reads, but... if its anything like Tactical Presence from KotS pregen, IMO the bonus would only apply to the initial attack.
_
Tatical Presence: When an ally you can see spends an action point to make an attack, the ally gains a +2 bonus to the attack roll. _

As a DM, I would rule this only applies to the primary attack roll which is caused by spending an action point.  The Secondary and tertiary attacks would not receive the benefit because they are caused by the initial attack succeeding.

Just my two coppers.

EDIT: Fixed the bonus and clarified a little bit


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## FadedC (May 30, 2008)

Dracollich said:
			
		

> I'm not sure how Lead the Attack reads, but... if its anything like Tactical Presence from KotS pregen, IMO the bonus would only apply to the initial attack.
> _
> Tatical Presence: When an ally you can see spends an action point to make an attack, the ally gains a +2 bonus to the attack roll. _
> 
> ...




Lead the attack is not like tactical presence. It lasts the entire encounter and applies to all attacks against the target by all characters.


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## Dracollich (May 30, 2008)

Thank you FadedC for clearing that up for me.  How I wish I had the books right now.


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## Majoru Oakheart (May 30, 2008)

ender_wiggin said:
			
		

> ....
> 
> An ability that does not put a cap on DPS. Unless we're missing something, this is a gross oversight on the developer's part.



Not really, I've tested a ranger with this power out.  The most times I've managed to hit with hit was 4 before I missed.

I admit, that if I could get the perfect conditions, I might be able to increase that to maybe 6 hits.  That IS pretty good, but it requires a LOT of things to come together in one round and likely doesn't kill a solo monster of your level.


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## ender_wiggin (May 30, 2008)

I do not think that it is difficult to put enough penalties on a solo monster that you'll only need a 2 to hit.

The problem isn't in the stacking penalties. It's in the power. That style of power, where you can keep going to you fail, imho is extremely susceptible to munchkinism.

The developers know this. Mike Mearls definately knows this. He wrote Iron Heroes, and there was a similarly written feat in that, which was also broken. This is why I'm saying, "Come on guys."


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## comrade raoul (May 30, 2008)

I'd give up plate and go for bastard swords. Less armor, more accuracy, more speed--helps with blade cascade.

But that's mostly because I think twin bastard swords are cooler than twin battle axes. YMMV.


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## OioO (Jun 4, 2008)

How are you hitting anything?  The things you are facing at 16th have AC's from 29-35.

That's a pretty small percentage of successful strikes.

Its a nice combo you have there but things are too hard to hit in this edition.  Its too easy to blow an encounter or daily power, which are the only things that can keep a player even with the monsters they face.


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## Xzylvador (Jun 4, 2008)

Level 16: attack bonus: +8(level), weapon prof +2or3, stat bonus +5/6, flanking +2, warlord bonus +?, action surge +3, 
Monster AC lowered by WisMod or WisMod+2 (about 4-6?)
Isn't THAT hard to hit... and wasn't there an item that lets you reroll 1's on melee attacks?


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## Surgoshan (Jun 4, 2008)

Don't forget that level 16 is when +4 magic items start showing up.

And you're thinking of the gauntlets of destruction (level 18) that allow you to reroll any 1s that show up on a damage roll.


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## Storminator (Jun 4, 2008)

I'd make a sample party and put them up against a purple worm to see if this really works before I'd call it broken.

It looks like you've got a ~50% chance of hitting once with Splinter, and less than that each hit with Blade Cascade, which means you're going to stop dealing damage way before you chop thru a purple worm's 800 hit points.

I'm sure you could chop down a soldier from a mixed encounter pretty well, but that means you've killed one monster with your daily attack.

PS


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## Zaruthustran (Jun 4, 2008)

OioO said:
			
		

> How are you hitting anything?  The things you are facing at 16th have AC's from 29-35.
> 
> That's a pretty small percentage of successful strikes.
> 
> Its a nice combo you have there but things are too hard to hit in this edition.  Its too easy to blow an encounter or daily power, which are the only things that can keep a player even with the monsters they face.




Well, his basic melee attack is +16.

With Deadly Payback and Action Surge, he adds +5 to all those attacks.

I didn't include magic weapons, but if you assume a level-appropriate +4 weapon that's another +4 to the attack roll.

With Armor Splinter he subtracts at least 4, and possibly 6, from the enemy's AC.

So call it +25 vs. the AC range you used (adjusted for Armor Splinter): 24-29 AC, or 22-27 AC.

Most of the time, he'll hit on a roll of 2 or higher. 

Especially if he can get a buddy to give a flank, but involving other party members is usually considered bad form in character optimization discussions. I wonder if that will change in 4E? This new edition really encourages cooperation and party synergy.



			
				comrade raoul said:
			
		

> I'd give up plate and go for bastard swords. Less armor, more accuracy, more speed--helps with blade cascade.




You can certainly do that. This build was originally an exercise to see if I could build a successful ranger that didn't rely on Dex. So I went heavy armor, which required me to bump up his Con, which opened up those painful Axe feats. But sure, you could go the traditional ranger route, dump Con for Dex, and swap those armor feats for bastard sword, TWF, and TWD. In that case add +1 attack and +1 damage to all those attack rolls.


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## Blackbrrd (Jun 4, 2008)

Level 16: attack bonus: +8(level), weapon prof +3, stat bonus +6, flanking +2, warlord bonus +3 (tactical presence), action surge +3 (human), +4 magical weapon
Monster AC lowered by WisMod or WisMod+2 (lets say he only hits with one attack +3) (16wis)
To-hit = 8+3+6+2+3+3+4=29

Purple worm ac: 33, 30 after armor splinter.

Character needs 2 to hit. This gives a 51% chance of hitting the thing 13 times (0,95^13=0,51). The average damage was 22-40 or something? 31 average *13 = 403 average damage. Quite nice, but you have spent an encounter power, a daily and an action point. 10% of the time you actually only get two attacks. Which is a bit sad. On the other hand, you hit with 19 attacks 5% of the time too...

If you multiclass to warlock and take the utility power Dark One’s Own Luck (level 6 utility) you can reroll that one miss... Then you have got a 51% chance of hitting 26 times... Then the damage goes up to 806 damage.


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## Jcosby (Jun 4, 2008)

*Dwarven Ranger*

This was done fairly fast at work... so, I'm not swearing every # is 100% correct.. but it's pretty darn close.

Draxle Ironworks, the spelunking Ranger. 

Dwarven Ranger
Paragon path: Pit Fighter
Stats at 1st level: 	Stats at 16th level:
Str 17 			Str 22
Con 13 		             Con 14
Dex 13			Dex 14
Int 10			Int 11
Wis 17			Wis 22
Cha 8			Cha 9

Skills: Athletics (STR), Dungeoneering (WIS), Endurance (CON), Heal (WIS), Perception (WIS), Streetwise (CHA, From Fighter), 

Feats
Ranger bonus: Toughness    (+5 Hps (1st, 11th, 21st)
1st level: Dwarven Weapon Training  (+2 Damage)
2nd level: Chainmail  (+3 AC)
4th level: Lethal Hunter (d8)
6th level: Two-Weapon Fighting (+1 Damage)
8th level: Scalemail (+1 AC, No Skill Check Negative)
10th level: Fighter multiclass	 (+1 Hit Encounter, Streetwise)
11th level: Deadly Axe (19-20 Crit Range)
12th level: Devastating Critical (1d10 extra Crit Damage)
14th level: Two-Weapon Defense (+1 AC, +1 Reflex)
16th level: Blood Thirst (+1 Dam Vs Bloodied)

Essential Equipment
Scalemail, 
Twin Battle Axes (Vicious Battle Axe / Flame Burst) 

Defenses
AC 27         (10 base, +8 level, +7 armor, +1 Pit Fighter, +1 TWD)
Fort: 25 	    (10 base, +8 level, +1 class, +6 STR)
Reflex: 21    (10 base, +8 level, +1 class, + 1 Dex, + 1 TWD)
Will: 24 	    (10 base, +8 level, + 6 Wis)

At-Will, Encounter, Daily and Utilities power could be pretty much the same.  Both builds are trying to maximize STR + WIS synergy with in the powers.  The Human get’s a 28 AC while the Dwarf opting for only Scalemail gets an AC of 27 but suffers no Skill Check penalty and no movement penalty which is big for a hit and move striker like the Ranger.  Also with the +6 Wis Mod the Dwarf has much more flexibility when it comes to pre and post combat moving and shifting.

If 3.5 the extra feat by the human would be much more powerful but the feats in 4.0 aren’t nearly as powerful and when you really look at the second half of the Paragon tree and the Epic tree they aren’t very impressive at all.  Also if you really wanted to you could get Platemail with your 20th level feat after putting a point into CON giving you the 15 needed.  I don’t think the 1 AC is worth it though.

Also at level 21 I would exchange Dwarven Weapon Training for Weapon Focus: Battle Axe, or I could do this anytime after level 11 when Weapon Focus becomes as good as Dwarven Weapon Training.  In the end the builds are very similar I think the Dwarf shines a bit more with over all consistency and more flexibility with the +6 Wis Mod.  (Which is odd because he’s ends up with much better movement and movement options even though he’s a dwarf.. Kind of goes against the old school dwarf mentality.)

JBC


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## daddystabz (Jun 5, 2008)

Is Jcosby's build perfectly legal and is it any better than the original version?


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## Zaruthustran (Jun 5, 2008)

Draxle's base stats aren't legal (he's at 23 point buy instead of 22) and he starts out with a lower Str--and won't ever catch up. So he'll always be -1 attack compared to Irongorn. The bonus to Wis means that after 16th level he'll be doing the same damage (trading +1 Str bonus for +1 Wis bonus). The advantage from Dwarven Weapon training washes out after 11th level.

There is no difference in speed; human base speed is 6 (lowered to 5 for heavy armor) and dwarf base speed is 5 (and isn't lowered by armor). The Wis advantage, though, will give one extra square of shift for those powers that allow you to shift a number of squares = Wis. I don't think that's a big deal, though. I just don't think one square of movement will matter very often.

The real loss is the racial feat "Action Surge", which gives the +3 on attacks when you spend an action. All your attacks for the entire round, so start your round by spending a free action on an action point attack to get the most out of that benefit. 

I think +3 attack to all your attacks is a big deal, especially for the ranger--that class just gets so many attacks.  So I don't think Draxle is better, but as a change in flavor to the general theme of "heavy-armor ranger multi'd into pit fighter" he works out just fine.


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## daddystabz (Jun 5, 2008)

Do you have an updated build of your human ranger, Irongorn? I still like some of your ideas but I would need to get an updated version that is rules legal overall, including with legal starting stats.


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## daddystabz (Jun 5, 2008)

So no Two Weapon Fighting or Two Weapon Defense? So this guy will swing a single axe and no shiled or anything? You still have 2 battleaxes listed for weapons.


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## Vempyre (Jun 5, 2008)

NM--


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## Zaruthustran (Jun 9, 2008)

daddystabz said:
			
		

> So no Two Weapon Fighting or Two Weapon Defense? So this guy will swing a single axe and no shiled or anything? You still have 2 battleaxes listed for weapons.




The edited build (post 1 of this thread) is rules-legal. 

You don't need those feats to use two weapons. Anyone can use a one-handed weapon and an off-hand weapon in combat (attacking with one, or the other). 

The Ranger class allows you to fight with two one-handed weapons. This build is a ranger, and that's why he uses two battleaxes.


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## daddystabz (Jun 10, 2008)

But you basically gave up on this Human Ranger Pit Fighter build though beause it wasn't completely optimal?


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## Zaruthustran (Jun 10, 2008)

daddystabz said:
			
		

> But you basically gave up on this Human Ranger Pit Fighter build though beause it wasn't completely optimal?




No, what I'm saying is that I went and edited the original post to make it rules-legal. 

Just check the first post in this thread. Here's a direct link: http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=4251945&postcount=1

Human Ranger Pit Fighter is great, any way you slice it. I flavored Irongorn with heavy armor and axes; you could also go light armor and swords. Either way, it's a very solid build.


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## Zaruthustran (Jun 11, 2008)

*Now with 50 more damage! (assuming 10 attacks hit)*

Just saw a rule in this thread that sets Irongorn on the road towards Brokenland:

p226, PHB: "When you use a magic item as part of a racial power or a class power, the keywords of the item’s power and the other power all apply."

As that thread demonstrates, combining the above rule with the feat benefits of Lasting Frost (gives "vulnerable cold 5" to any target hit with an attack with the Cold keyword) and Wintertouched (gain combat advantage against any foe with "vulnerable cold") makes the big blade cascade combo even more deadly. Assuming Irongorn is using two Cold weapons, by the time the Blade Cascade is initiated every attack is essentially +2 attack, and +5 damage.

I flavored Irongorn for defense, but it's simple to optimize it for offense by swapping con with dex, and ditching the axe and armor feats for bastard sword, twf, lasting frost, and wintertouched.

Here's the math, assuming two +4 frost bastard swords (appropriate for 16th level):

+28 attack (+8 for level, +6 Str, +3 proficiency, +4 enhancement, +2 combat advantage, +3 Action Surge, +2 deadly payback)
...vs a target with at least a -4 penalty to AC
...for 2d10 + 16 (+ 6 Str, +4 Wis, +2 Weapon Focus, +4 enhancement) + 10 (+2 deadly payback, +8 extra damage action) + 5 (vulnerable cold) damage per hit.

That's a range of 33 to 51 damage per hit, he keeps rolling attacks until he misses, and with that attack bonus and the AC penalty on his target he only misses on a "1".

_Brrrr!_


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## GoodKingJayIII (Jun 11, 2008)

This is such a great build.  And I don't just mean mathematically, but thematically and evocatively.  The image of a Dwarf _Ranger_ wading through enemies and carving them up with two axes is just perfect.  This is _exactly_ what I always wanted from a Ranger (or at least, what I always wanted to be possible).

Edit: I know the original character's not a Dwarf, it's just the way I imagined him!


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## Tony Vargas (Jun 11, 2008)

Zaruthustran said:
			
		

> Especially if he can get a buddy to give a flank, but involving other party members is usually considered bad form in character optimization discussions. I wonder if that will change in 4E? This new edition really encourages cooperation and party synergy.



It certainly does, and a leader could really help set you up for something like this.  If you have a Warlord for instance, your action-point action gets another +(warlord's INT)/2, and he has several abilities that can slide you into flanking and/or give you a bonus to hit (and/or damage), the Warlord analog to Armor Splinter even lets you crit on an 18-20...   It it's a Cleric, Righteous Brand gives a big attack bonus (the bonus is based on the War Cleric's primary stat), and it's /at will/, and spiritual weapon can give everyone Combat Advantage vs it's target, among other possibilities.


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## daddystabz (Jun 11, 2008)

Why don't you post an offensive version of Irongorn that takes advantage of all this with all the feats, etc. you would build him with, Zaruthustran? I want to check this out! Would human be the optimal choice for it or something more exotic like Longtooth Shifter or whatever.  Basically, what is the best phb race for it and which is the best non-phb race?


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## HP Dreadnought (Jun 11, 2008)

Not a bad build. . . . will go through a single tough opponent like a buzzsaw. . . great for 3E. . . not so great for 4E where its all about numbers though.


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## Zaruthustran (Jun 12, 2008)

daddystabz, I think Human is pretty strong simply due to Action Surge. I'm a big fan of action points because so many Paragon Paths give you interesting ways to spend them, or bonuses that last an entire round--so if you spend the action point at the beginning of the round (before your standard action attack) you can stretch that bonus. 

Action Surge gives the +3 on attack when you spend an AP, meaning that whatever cool thing you're about to do (and action points only come out when it's dramatic) is that much more likely to hit. 

But yes, the Razorclaw shifter (+2 to Str and Wis) is clearly a good choice for a wonderful melee ranger. Better than human? Assuming the human puts his bump into Str (effectively matching the +2 that Shifter gets), it breaks down like this:

Razorclaw shifter
+1 Will defense
+1 on bonus ranger powers (usually things like slide and push)
+1 on damage from Pit Fighter's bonus

Human
+1 Will (matches above)
+1 Reflex
+1 feat & skill

The hidden advantage is that the +2 gives an advantage in point buy; Irongorn the Shifter could spend 2 points instead of 5 points to get that 14 starting Wis. That's 3 points to spend elsewhere, like Con, or even bumping Str up to 19. 

It's interesting. Probably better in the long run to go with Shifter, though if you were doing a oneshot for a low-level game the extra feat would be more impactful/fun.


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## Tellerve (Jul 7, 2008)

Blackbrrd said:


> Level 16: attack bonus: +8(level), weapon prof +3, stat bonus +6, flanking +2, warlord bonus +3 (tactical presence), action surge +3 (human), +4 magical weapon
> Monster AC lowered by WisMod or WisMod+2 (lets say he only hits with one attack +3) (16wis)
> To-hit = 8+3+6+2+3+3+4=29
> 
> ...




Sadly, or not depending on your take, you can't multi-class twice.  He's a ranger that mult-classed to fighter to get the Pit-Fighter prestige class.

Tellerve


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## Tellerve (Jul 15, 2008)

Jcosby said:


> This was done fairly fast at work... so, I'm not swearing every # is 100% correct.. but it's pretty darn close.
> 
> Draxle Ironworks, the spelunking Ranger.
> 
> ...




It would appear to me you aren't starting with a typical 22 point buy character.  Which is cool, if your DM allows, but maybe not for what you can achieve when that isn't the standard buildout of points.

Also you say you choose scale mail because of the lack of skill check AND movement penalties, however, dwarves don't take a movement penalty from armor or heavy loads.

Tellerve


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## Puggins (Jul 15, 2008)

The Ranger/Pit-Fighter combo is not broken.  Blade cascade, on the other, hand, is completely beyond the pale.  If you go to the optimization board on WotC you'll find Orcus-Killer, a Ranger/Shadow Assassin that kills Orcus in one round due to Blade cascade- it was hashed out about three days after release.  Switch Blade Cascade to three attacks at 2[W]- it's going to have to be errated in some way.


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## Tellerve (Jul 22, 2008)

Was hoping Jcosby would see this and let me know what was up with his build.

Soo...bump 

Tellerve


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## Ahrimon (Jul 22, 2008)

Well blade cascade has been errata'd to alternating weapons and a max of five attacks.


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