# Heroes Season 1(#20)---4/30/07-'(Five Years Gone)String Theory'



## Truth Seeker (Apr 30, 2007)

*(Five Years Gone)String Theory*​


*Star*:  *Hayden Panettiere (Claire Bennet),  Jack Coleman (Mr. Bennet / HRG),  Leonard Roberts (D.L. Hawkins),  Masi Oka (Hiro Nakamura),  Milo Ventimiglia (Peter Petrelli),  Noah Gray-Cabey (Micah Sanders),  Santiago Cabrera (Isaac Mendez),  Sendhil Ramamurthy (Mohinder Suresh),  Adrian Pasdar (Nathan Petrelli),  Ali Larter (Niki Sanders),  Greg Grunberg (Matt Parkman)* 

Recurring Role:  *James Kyson Lee (Ando Masahashi),  Zachary Quinto (Sylar)  * 

Guest Star: * Stana Katic (Hana Gitelman),  Jimmy Jean-Louis (The Hatian),  Kellan Lutz (Andy)  * 



Hiro and Ando find themselves five years after the destruction of New York City. People with extraordinary abilities are labeled as terrorists and are being registered, hunted, and killed. Hiro and Ando meet up with darker versions of the other heroes in preparation for a showdown with the President. This includes a darker side of Matt, a Jessica/Niki with a clear winner in their battle, a brown-haired Claire, and a man named Andy, who's a big hearted Texan. It also features an event at an upscale gentleman's club.​
It is a Dark time tonight!!


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## tecnowraith (Apr 30, 2007)

The title of episode is "Five Years Gone". Just FYI.


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## Fast Learner (Apr 30, 2007)

If you saw Friday's Larry King Live with the cast, you saw most of the opening this week, it seems. Very exciting!


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## Steel_Wind (May 1, 2007)

I guess I'm 1.5/2 on wild theories.


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## Crothian (May 1, 2007)

ugh, didn't like that twist


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## wingsandsword (May 1, 2007)

So far it looks like Heroes is doing its version of the "Days of Future Past" storyline.

Parkman is a villain, Bennett is running an underground railroad, Hiro is considered a Most Wanted terrorist, and President Petrelli has authorized an outright genocide of all superpowered humans.

I'm wondering how hard will it be to ever see Nathan or Matt as anything but villains after this though.


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## Pseudonym (May 1, 2007)

That was amazing.


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## DonTadow (May 1, 2007)

wow just wow, Sylar wasn't painting crazy pics, he was painting himself as president.  And that fight in the hall at the end. I was screaming for the camera man to let us see that fight.  That fight alone would take out half a city.  

This episode answeres a few questions from the beginning of the series, such as some more defined rules for time traveling and why there is a future hero.  Sylalr seemed to pull off a convincing president, which surprised me.


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## The Grumpy Celt (May 1, 2007)

It was interesting we never was what became of Linderman in this future, and the only mention of him was in the "Linderman Act" mentioned by a reporter. 

Edit: Or for that matter, Mother Patrelli.

Peter was finally combing his hair, and all he had to do was destroy New York. Matt becomes more forceful, but possibly more dumb as well.

You can't fight the future... Sylar will win for a long time, he will kill Claire and Nathan, New York will be destroyed and things will spiral downwards.


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## Vocenoctum (May 1, 2007)

Crothian said:
			
		

> ugh, didn't like that twist




I didn't like the twist, either. Since Hiro doesn't seem to know anything more, it's also possible, maybe even likely, that history keeps going the way it already did. It's neat to wonder whether Save The Cheerleader really did alter reality or whether it was always like that though.


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## Steel_Wind (May 1, 2007)

It doesn't add up.

The version of the future we were in was not one where Peter saved the Cheerleader. He had the scar. How did that happen? It should not have if he could heal.

Claire did not have to go on the run from the Company? HRG was able to hide her?

Does not add up.

Unless - the cheerleader never had to be saved. Sylar always got Jackie  - never Claire.

I'm not a fan of paradoxes.

Anyways: Future Hiro gives Ando a missing page from the comic. I'm guessing it is a vital clue - or how he dies so that he can change that event and break the cycle.

I'm guessing that one act will enable the bomb to be avoided.

It's all up to Ando now.

Further Comment: Did it say what Molly's Power was?


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## DonTadow (May 1, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> It doesn't add up.
> 
> The version of the future we were in was not one where Peter saved the Cheerleader. He had the scar. How did that happen? It should not have if he could heal.
> 
> ...



Yeah time paradoxes suck but they are a big part of comic lore. 
In that scene, the beginning, it appears that future hiro's mind was being written up as he went along.  Future Hiro didn't seem to be too aquanted with the new world.   They havn't explained all the "time traveling rules" but the fact that there are processes that Future Hiro seemed to be following means there are some.  

We also still don't know how he got the scar, it can happen after this season or during the explosion. 

I took the ending of the episode as the future's way of correcting itself.


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## The Grumpy Celt (May 1, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Did it say what Molly's Power was?




Only that she supposedly had the power to stop Sylar, but that is a vague statement. 

Was the dark-haired woman with the accent supposed to be the Israeli from the comics? I forget her name.


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## Ghostwind (May 1, 2007)

Oh man, that was such a cool episode! I wish we had seen more of Peter and Sylar going at it.


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## Ghostwind (May 1, 2007)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> Was the dark-haired woman with the accent supposed to be the Israeli from the comics? I forget her name.




Yes. That was Wireless.


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## Silver Moon (May 1, 2007)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> So far it looks like Heroes is doing its version of the "Days of Future Past" storyline.



Agreed.  Excellent episode but they did borrow very heavily from that now-classic X-Men tale.    But then again, with any series that can toss in a nod to Marvel by having Stan Lee show in a cameo it's only fair to steal from that source.


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## Ed_Laprade (May 1, 2007)

3 more episodes to go? What, there are only going to be five episodes this season? What was that supposed to mean>?

Hmm, maybe Peter got the scar after blowing up NY and deliberately didn't heal it as some sort of self punishment? 

Personally, I don't think it's possible for Matt to become more dumb than he already is. Otherwise he would have read the new head guy's mind when he made the deal with him. Then lied his butt off.


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## Vocenoctum (May 1, 2007)

Ed_Laprade said:
			
		

> 3 more episodes to go? What, there are only going to be five episodes this season? What was that supposed to mean>?



This is still first season, the month long break wasn't a season ending or anything.



> Hmm, maybe Peter got the scar after blowing up NY and deliberately didn't heal it as some sort of self punishment?
> 
> Personally, I don't think it's possible for Matt to become more dumb than he already is. Otherwise he would have read the new head guy's mind when he made the deal with him. Then lied his butt off.




I think both/either can be chalked up to the Haitian. Perhaps the injury occured when his healing powers were blocked.


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## Vocenoctum (May 1, 2007)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> Was the dark-haired woman with the accent supposed to be the Israeli from the comics? I forget her name.




I wasn't paying attention, and thought that was Candace and so was surprised when it was revealed that Sylar had Candace...


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## The Grumpy Celt (May 1, 2007)

Ed_Laprade said:
			
		

> ...there are only going to be five episodes this season?




Despite the long break, the episodes showing now are still part of the first season.


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## Vocenoctum (May 1, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> It doesn't add up.
> 
> The version of the future we were in was not one where Peter saved the Cheerleader. He had the scar. How did that happen? It should not have if he could heal.



Bar fight with Nikki? 



> Claire did not have to go on the run from the Company? HRG was able to hide her?




Claire DID go on the run, hiding from everyone, Hiro must not have had the right information about her death...

Do we know if Hiro knows that the cheerleader was saved?





> Unless - the cheerleader never had to be saved. Sylar always got Jackie  - never Claire.



It comes down to whether history was altered or not. We know Peter was going to the high school because the painting said so, we don't know if dead cheerleader painting was Claire or Jackie. 

You know, screw it, it almost has to be some kind of paradox, otherwise Hiro wouldn't need strings to know when to jump, Peter would have simply told him when he had already done it!


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## Alzrius (May 1, 2007)

It's pretty well impossible to get all the answers to the logic of time travel as presented in the show so far. There's have to be MUCH more exposition on that than was given in this episode. As such, I've decided not to worry about that too much, and just enjoy what was presented.

And man oh man, was there a lot to enjoy! The best part was Sylar and Peter's fight in the hallway. Just seeing that glimpse made me whoop and holler. I wish we'd seen more! Hopefully we'll get something like that later on!

Also, spoiler warning: 



Spoiler



It's been confirmed that Sylar will return in the next season. But what if it's Future Sylar that returns? Even if Present Sylar is killed, suppose Future Sylar defeats Peter in the battle in the hallway. He then goes and gets Future Hiro's brain (he was shot in the chest, remember). Future Sylar is then able to travel through time, and travels back to menace the cast in season two, more powerful than ever!  



EDIT: How odd, the spoiler tags won't hide a smiley.  :\


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## Steel_Wind (May 1, 2007)

*Wild Theories Are not Spoilers: But if they are accurate - they might be. My wild theories are sometimes bang on - you were warned  
*


Wild Theory #3: 


Spoiler



Alright - here's the deal.

Hiro does not stab Sylar. He stabs Peter who looks like Sylar. That's what sets Peter off and he explodes.

They pulled a bait and switch with the prophetic drawings once because of Candice's power - and they are going to do it to us again.

Peter is having trouble controlling the power and barely has it contained. He thinks Hiro can stop time and kill him. Hiro won't do it. Peter chooses to appear to Hiro as Sylar in order to frighten Hiro into taking action to kill him and stop the explosion.

Which is the very thing which causes the explosion.

So - how do you stop an exploding man?  Hiro cannot do it. He cannot directly change time - only indirectly change it by altering the choices of another. 

The one man who can prevent Hiro from doing something very stupid is the one man he trusts more than any other.

That would be Ando. When Future Hiro gives Ando the missing page  allowing Ando to avoid the circumstances that cause his death - Ando can be present to stop Hiro from stabbing Peter and causing him to blow up.

It's all up to Ando.

You don't need to have a special power to be a Hero.


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## WayneLigon (May 1, 2007)

Ed_Laprade said:
			
		

> 3 more episodes to go? What, there are only going to be five episodes this season? What was that supposed to mean>?




Do you honestly just half-way watch the show while you're doing laundry or something?


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## Nellisir (May 1, 2007)

Jus some random thought.  If Peter hadn't saved Claire, Sylar would've gotten her power earlier -- which wouldn't have necessarily made a difference, except that Peter wouldn't get it.  So Peter would blow up and die, not blow up and live.

I have no idea of that's at all significant.  Much darker future, though, if there's no Peter to oppose Sylar.


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## Steel_Wind (May 1, 2007)

Nellisir said:
			
		

> Jus some random thought.  If Peter hadn't saved Claire, Sylar would've gotten her power earlier -- which wouldn't have necessarily made a difference, except that Peter wouldn't get it.  So Peter would blow up and die, not blow up and live.
> 
> I have no idea of that's at all significant.  Much darker future, though, if there's no Peter to oppose Sylar.




Not really. We don't know if Sylar would have only killed Jackie.

And if Sylar did kill Claire - that does not mean that Peter would not have got that power. Peter meets Sylar. When he does - he takes all the powers that Sylar has. That's the way Peter works.

So Sylar killing Claire does not prevent Peter from getting Claire's  healing abiliy from Sylar.


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## Dire Bare (May 1, 2007)

Great episode!

Were some of you guys actually watching tonight?



			
				Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> It doesn't add up.



It certainly does add up.  Not that there aren't surprises to be revealed in the last 3 episodes of Season 1!



			
				wingsandsword said:
			
		

> I'm wondering how hard will it be to ever see Nathan or Matt as anything but villains after this though.



You did catch the part about Nathan not exactly being responsible for the genocide suggested in the episode?



			
				Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> It's neat to wonder whether Save The Cheerleader really did alter reality or whether it was always like that though.



1. Original Timeline: Sylar takes Claire at homecoming and gains the power of regeneration.  After a chain of events the "bomb" explodes creating a very dark future.

2. 1st Altered Timeline: Future Hiro travels back in time to warn Peter to "Save the Cheerleader" to prevent Sylar from gaining the power of regeneration.  Peter does save the cheerleader, and we see this in the new future (tonight's episode).  However, while the cheerleader was saved, the "bomb" still exploded, still creating the dark future.  Future Hiro screwed up, because 



Spoiler



Sylar is not the "bomb", Peter is


!  We learn this tonight as well, straight from the horse's mouth.

3. 2nd Altered Timeline (which starts with next week's episode):  Hiro and Ando return to the present to change the future once again, but do not know that 



Spoiler



Peter


 is the "bomb".  So how is the world saved?  Tune in next week!



			
				Ed_Laprade said:
			
		

> Personally, I don't think it's possible for Matt to become more dumb than he already is.



I just don't understand the hate for Parkman (or Niki/Jessica, DL, Micah, ect).  Parkman isn't dumb.  He's not brilliantly smart, and he is flawed, but he's far from dumb.  The future Parkman is a very dark character who has no idea he's working for Sylar.  Why?  Why can't Parkman just read Sylar's mind and figure it out?  We don't know.  That's part of the fun.

I get tired of the complaints about this or that character making bad choices and therefore being "dumb" characters.  Like half of us would do any better put into such crazy circumstances.  This isn't a four-color comic where our heroes are super strong, super smart and always right.  This is a character driven drama with very realistic characters (minus the super powers bit) that sometimes, sometimes often, make wrong choices.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Also, spoiler warning:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I like that idea!


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## Steel_Wind (May 1, 2007)

Dire Bare said:
			
		

> Great episode!
> 
> Were some of you guys actually watching tonight?
> 
> It certainly does add up.  Not that there aren't surprises to be revealed in the last 3 episodes of Season 1!




Except for one thing: why does Future Peter who can heal having his skull and forehead ripped open have a scar?

That's the part which does not add up.


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## Phoenix8008 (May 1, 2007)

To me, the first proof that they could change the future (...the past...whatever!) that they could stop New York from going BOOM was when Future Hiro didn't expect/remember Past Hiro showing up! That means that there is a change to the past already since he did something different. This also leads me to wonder if the future and past versions might indeed be existing in separate but near identical time lines since Future Hiro's memory didn't auto-correct to gain the memories of his visit there.

My problem/question concerns the following paradox: First time through, Hiro tried to stop the bombman (who he believes to be Sylar) by stabbing him, but he regenerates and blows up anyway. Future Peter though admits to being the bomb. How did he survive Hiro's attack if he didn't have Claire's regeneration? (The newspaper clipping on Hiro's time map showed Claire with her head cut off, not Jackie I believe. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong here.) So Future Hiro tries to save her to deny regeneration to Sylar (incorrectly identifying him again) leading Peter to save her and gain the regeneration power which actually keeps him alive when Hiro tries to stop him from blowing up New York. So is the answer for Hiro to go back and kill Claire himself so neither Peter nor Sylar can get her power?
[whisper]"Kill the Cheerleader, Save the World!"[/whisper]     :\ 

The comic shows Hiro running somebody through. I guess we just have to wait and find out for sure who it is. As an aside, do you think Future Peter's scar is from Hiro's sword or Sylar's finger?



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Also, spoiler warning:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is about the scariest scenario I can think of!!! If that's not what they have planned already, they need to hire you as a writer and make it so!


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## Dire Bare (May 1, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Except for one thing: why does Future Peter who can heal having his skull and forehead ripped open have a scar?
> 
> That's the part which does not add up.




Why doesn't it add up?  We just don't know all the information yet.  Of course we are supposed to wonder how Peter gets a nasty scar like that (other than to look sexy, of course) when he has Claire's power or regeneration.  But there are three episodes to go.  We might learn the reason, we might actually not.  Doesn't mean there isn't a reason there.


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## Steel_Wind (May 1, 2007)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> Also, spoiler warning:
> 
> 
> 
> ...






Spoiler



Even if Future Hiro is too far gone - he could eat Peter can get the same result.  Peter has the power too.

It's a neat idea, I'll grant you that.  But the whole timeline stuff gets pretty messy.


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## Steel_Wind (May 1, 2007)

Dire Bare said:
			
		

> Why doesn't it add up?  We just don't know all the information yet.  Of course we are supposed to wonder how Peter gets a nasty scar like that (other than to look sexy, of course) when he has Claire's power or regeneration.  But there are three episodes to go.  We might learn the reason, we might actually not.  Doesn't mean there isn't a reason there.




I think the reason is that the writers are pulling this stuff out of their ass as they go along - and time travel and paradoxes are those things that don't satisfactorily get explained.  They felt "committed" to give Peter a scar because of the comment Hiro makes in the past on the subway talking to Peter.

No more; no less.

And if they don't explain that in the next three episodes - then it doesn't add up.


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## Steel_Wind (May 1, 2007)

Phoenix8008 said:
			
		

> The newspaper clipping on Hiro's time map showed Claire with her head cut off, not Jackie I believe. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong here.)




It showed neither. It was equivocal.


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## Dire Bare (May 1, 2007)

Phoenix8008 said:
			
		

> To me, the first proof that they could change the future (...the past...whatever!) that they could stop New York from going BOOM was when Future Hiro didn't expect/remember Past Hiro showing up! That means that there is a change to the past already since he did something different. This also leads me to wonder if the future and past versions might indeed be existing in separate but near identical time lines since Future Hiro's memory didn't auto-correct to gain the memories of his visit there.
> 
> My problem/question concerns the following paradox: First time through, Hiro tried to stop the bombman (who he believes to be Sylar) by stabbing him, but he regenerates and blows up anyway. Future Peter though admits to being the bomb. How did he survive Hiro's attack if he didn't have Claire's regeneration? (The newspaper clipping on Hiro's time map showed Claire with her head cut off, not Jackie I believe. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong here.) So Future Hiro tries to save her to deny regeneration to Sylar (incorrectly identifying him again) leading Peter to save her and gain the regeneration power which actually keeps him alive when Hiro tries to stop him from blowing up New York. So is the answer for Hiro to go back and kill Claire himself so neither Peter nor Sylar can get her power? "Kill the Cheerleader, Save the World!"     :\
> 
> The comic shows Hiro running somebody through. I guess we just have to wait and find out for sure who it is. As an aside, do you think Future Peter's scar is from Hiro's sword or Sylar's finger?




We know that first time through, Hiro stabs Sylar, but Sylar regenerates.  We DON'T know that Sylar explodes!!!  Future Hiro assumes this to be true since Sylar is the Big Bad Evil Guy and Future Nathan (



Spoiler



actually Sylar himself


) later blames the explosion on Sylar.  But it is 



Spoiler



Peter that explodes instead


!  Future Hiro is duped by Sylar!!!

Future Hiro warns Peter to save the cheerleader, which he does, but this has very little effect on the timeline.  Does Hiro stab a non-regenerating Sylar?  Does Hiro stab (or also stab) a regenerating 



Spoiler



Peter


?  What is the result?  We don't yet know of course!

And it seems that Hiro is somewhat immune to his own time traveling and the changes that result.  Future Hiro's memory is not altered and he is unsure if the cheerleader was saved.  The newspaper clippings still showed Claire as a grisly murder victim.  And if you check out the most recent graphic novel, you find that Future Hiro has only been "back to the future" for a very brief time before running into Present Day Hiro.


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## Dire Bare (May 1, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> I think the reason is that the writers are pulling this stuff out of their ass as they go along - and time travel and paradoxes are those things that don't satisfactorily get explained.  They felt "committed" to give Peter a scar because of the comment Hiro makes in the past on the subway talking to Peter.
> 
> No more; no less.
> 
> And if they don't explain that in the next three episodes - then it doesn't add up.




I disagree.  Lost is the show where the writers are pulling crazy stuff right out of their asses every week!  I'm pretty sure Heroes is tightly scripted.  In an older interview with series creater Kring, I remember him saying they had the whole story mapped out, but left in flexibility as production commenced.  Which is why Eden got a lot more screen time than originally planned (she was supposed to have been killed off earlier than she was).

But we won't know for sure until the last episode is complete!


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## Fast Learner (May 1, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> I think the reason is that the writers are pulling this stuff out of their ass as they go along - and time travel and paradoxes are those things that don't satisfactorily get explained.



So not the case, I'm certain.


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## The Grumpy Celt (May 1, 2007)

I think Hiro’s time travel and meddling with the time stream is something easily over analyzed by the fans. What he does and the events he sets in motions are not actually part of causality – we cannot predict what happens because none of it is predicated on real events but what the writers want to happen. It is more or less impossible for us to accurately predict everything, or even a majority, of what will happen because there will always be an X-factor we cannot predict, like the little girl who supposedly has the power to stop Sylar.


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## John Crichton (May 1, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> It doesn't add up.
> 
> The version of the future we were in was not one where Peter saved the Cheerleader. He had the scar. How did that happen? It should not have if he could heal.



We don't know that.  Perhaps an encounter with the Haitian caused his powers to not function completely.  Plenty happened in 5 years and we know Peter has been in plenty of fights.  Plus, he may get a slightly lesser version of other's powers so a big enough hurts (say, exploding?) could scar him.



			
				Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Claire did not have to go on the run from the Company? HRG was able to hide her?
> 
> Does not add up.



Why not?  We have not idea what happened in 5 years.  Besides, Bennett isn't working for the company anymore, he is freelancing as mentioned in the ep by the good graces of Parkman.



			
				Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Unless - the cheerleader never had to be saved. Sylar always got Jackie  - never Claire.
> 
> I'm not a fan of paradoxes.



That's fine, but the future we saw is only a snapshot and it also isn't written in stone.  Everything happened the way it did because nothing else in the past changed.  Well, Hiro and Ando are going back now to fix those mistakes.




			
				Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Anyways: Future Hiro gives Ando a missing page from the comic. I'm guessing it is a vital clue - or how he dies so that he can change that event and break the cycle.
> 
> I'm guessing that one act will enable the bomb to be avoided.
> 
> It's all up to Ando now.



Could be up to Ando.  Or not.



			
				Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> *Wild Theories Are not Spoilers: But if they are accurate - they might be. My wild theories are sometimes bang on - you were warned
> *Wild Theory #3:
> 
> [sblock] Alright - here's the deal.
> ...



Not bad, here is my take on the same theme.  I'll also note that I didn't read yours until after writing this up.  I actually was about to erase mine because we were thinking along the same path.  

[sblock]I think the clue is to let Hiro know "which" Sylar to kill.  Assumably, both Peter and Sylar can change their shape/alter other's perceptions by the time the bomb goes off.  It's very possible that Peter looked like Sylar for some reason in the original timeline and was stabbed by Hiro, then regenerated and exploded.  Thus, negating Future Hiro's assumptions that taking Sylar's regeneration out of the picture was the key (and still might be).  Sometime in that fight, Sylar takes the form of Nathan after killing him, or even before that.  Because of this, I think Nathan is dead this season - prolly in the finale.  Either way, it looks like Hiro needs to stab Sylar in Nathan form or maybe even Peter form.

It's also possible that in the above senario Peter doesn't quite have the "perception changing" power yet and Sylar manipulates the situation so that Hiro stabs the wrong person (Peter).  We already know that the ability isn't simple shapechanging, but can change the look of a whole room.[/sblock]


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## Truth Seeker (May 1, 2007)

HOLIE FRAK!! What A teasing ending...!


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## Hand of Evil (May 1, 2007)

Was Sylar using the voice?  It looked to be but...I know, this is the question everyone ask but man.  I liked it but...I feel I was watching the X-Men stories.  So, the event that is now important is the killing of Sylar.  

Matt and the Haittian are an interesting team.  

I have to say, the one that changes things has to be 



Spoiler



Ando


.  

Thoughts on the future:
[sblock]If Sylar is back, got to think he takes a bullet to the brian that weakens him, coma or broke back.[/sblock]


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## John Crichton (May 1, 2007)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> Was Sylar using the voice?  It looked to be but...I know, this is the question everyone ask but man.



Sylar doesn't have Eden's power.  That has been established and verified by the online comic.  And audio stuff that we see with him is for effect only.



			
				Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> Matt and the Haittian are an interesting team.



Yes, they are but they are also a natural combo.  Why not put together the power negator and the guy who can rip secrets from people's minds.  If I was the Prez, that's what I would do.



			
				Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> I have to say, the one that changes things has to be
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree with you and Steel, that would be cool if he plays a big part in the NY situation.


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## Hand of Evil (May 1, 2007)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Sylar doesn't have Eden's power.  That has been established and verified by the online comic.  And audio stuff that we see with him is for effect only.



I know but this time, it looked like he was effecting people, so, another power, maybe mind control?  I base this on, Matt & The Haitian, the two people that could/should see through Sylar's illusions.


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## Taelorn76 (May 1, 2007)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> I'm wondering how hard will it be to ever see Nathan or Matt as anything but villains after this though.




I guess after the twist at the end it's easy not to see Nathan as a villain.


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## Taelorn76 (May 1, 2007)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> Only that she supposedly had the power to stop Sylar, but that is a vague statement.
> 
> Was the dark-haired woman with the accent supposed to be the Israeli from the comics? I forget her name.



I do believe that was Wireless


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## Taelorn76 (May 1, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Bar fight with Nikki?
> Claire DID go on the run, hiding from everyone, Hiro must not have had the right information about her death...
> 
> Do we know if Hiro knows that the cheerleader was saved?




Past Hiro tells future Hiro that Peter saved the cheerleader. Future Hiro then tells Mr. Bennett that Claire is alive which prompts him to tell Clair to leave.  If you noticed when Future Hiro told Bennett there was a pause. I think memory changed at that moment and he realized she was alive.


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## John Crichton (May 1, 2007)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> I know but this time, it looked like he was effecting people, so, another power, maybe mind control?  I base this on, Matt & The Haitian, the two people that could/should see through Sylar's illusions.



 Naw, it wasn't Eden's power.  Her power doesn't allow a saving throw.


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## Sir Brennen (May 1, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Past Hiro tells future Hiro that Peter saved the cheerleader. Future Hiro then tells Mr. Bennett that Claire is alive which prompts him to tell Clair to leave.  If you noticed when Future Hiro told Bennett there was a pause. I think memory changed at that moment and he realized she was alive.



Now, I think it was pretty apparent in this continuity that Bennett knows Claire is alive. I think the pause was more "Oh, crap. Now other people know she's alive", which prompted him to contact her.


----------



## John Crichton (May 1, 2007)

Sir Brennen said:
			
		

> Now, I think it was pretty apparent in this continuity that Bennett knows Claire is alive. I think the pause was more "Oh, crap. Now other people know she's alive", which prompted him to contact her.



 Yes, this is much more probable.  I think there is lots of reading too far into things going down on the interwebs.  

This is not a subtle show.  You usually know when something is up cuz they whack you in the face with it.


----------



## DonTadow (May 1, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



When I say that I cringed. My hope is that either Hiro died or Hiro was so brain dead that Sylar only got part of his power.  Otherwise, Sylar would be unstoppable and could go so far back in time that he would completely screw over history.  We don't know sylar will die this season, we only know that there is someone who can kill sylar.

I was kinda mad that we didn't get more of a demonstration of Nicki's powers, which i stil lsuspect is the ability to bodyjump.


----------



## Kunimatyu (May 1, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> I think the reason is that the writers are pulling this stuff out of their ass as they go along - and time travel and paradoxes are those things that don't satisfactorily get explained.  They felt "committed" to give Peter a scar because of the comment Hiro makes in the past on the subway talking to Peter.
> 
> No more; no less.
> 
> And if they don't explain that in the next three episodes - then it doesn't add up.




I don't think the writers need to explain every little thing just to satisfy nitpicking, especially when we're dealing with time travel.

I demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!


----------



## Thornir Alekeg (May 1, 2007)

OK, the episode was just full of paradox, but overall I loved it.


On another note, it has been a while since a TV show infected my dreams like last nights episode did.  My most vivid one was that Sylar got to Wireless, took her power and was using it to hack into EN World and close down threads like this one to prevent people from figuring out how to stop him.


----------



## Nellisir (May 1, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> And if Sylar did kill Claire - that does not mean that Peter would not have got that power. Peter meets Sylar. When he does - he takes all the powers that Sylar has. That's the way Peter works.
> 
> So Sylar killing Claire does not prevent Peter from getting Claire's  healing abiliy from Sylar.




Except that Peter has to meet Sylar, and it's less certain that would've happened if Peter hadn't been sent to save the cheerleader.  It's also unclear how much awareness Peter has of his powers - it seems like he's now automatically "aware" when he gains a power, but he didn't know how to turn them on for quite awhile.


----------



## Hand of Evil (May 1, 2007)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> OK, the episode was just full of paradox, but overall I loved it.
> 
> 
> On another note, it has been a while since a TV show infected my dreams like last nights episode did.  My most vivid one was that Sylar got to Wireless, took her power and was using it to hack into EN World and close down threads like this one to prevent people from figuring out how to stop him.



Maybe got Mica (sp) too!  We know he got DL or was that LD, Nikki's Husband.


----------



## LightPhoenix (May 1, 2007)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> Maybe got Mica (sp) too!  We know he got DL or was that LD, Nikki's Husband.




My impression was that Sylar was using Bennett to round up the heroes.  So anyone that Bennett hid - Candace, DL, Molly, and whomever Sylar took.

Micah, on the other hand, died in the bomb, according to Future Peter.


----------



## LightPhoenix (May 1, 2007)

I liked the episode a lot.

I do have some issues with general direction though.

I think it was a complete and utter cop-out to have Sylar be Nathan.  I think it would mean a lot more if, for Peter, stopping the bomb didn't just mean saving his brother's life, but in a sense redeeming him, saving him from a life where he turns evil.

Furthermore, I _hate_ Candace's ability, because now any time someone is acting out of character, or strange, or evil, it's someone with Illusion.  It's an easy out whenever they want to retcon something.  My prediction is, just to keep it from getting out of hand, Candace dies by the end of the season.

Prediction: Ando stabs Peter and dies that way.


----------



## Taelorn76 (May 1, 2007)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> My impression was that Sylar was using Bennett to round up the heroes.  So anyone that Bennett hid - Candace, DL, Molly, and whomever Sylar took.
> 
> Micah, on the other hand, died in the bomb, according to Future Peter.




If he had control over Bennett it would have meant that he knew where Claire was the hold time and there would be no need for Matt to read Bennett's mind.


----------



## Taelorn76 (May 1, 2007)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Furthermore, I _hate_ Candace's ability, because now any time someone is acting out of character, or strange, or evil, it's someone with Illusion.  It's an easy out whenever they want to retcon something.  My prediction is, just to keep it from getting out of hand, Candace dies by the end of the season.




That is not exactly true, Matt and the Hatian were acting out of character and they were not an illusion


----------



## Taelorn76 (May 1, 2007)

It seems like the key hero Sylar wanted was Claire. He pretty much said that when he finally caught her. So my thought is you keep him from finding Claire either you let her die in the fire, or put a branch in her head.


----------



## Arnwyn (May 1, 2007)

What a fantastic episode. Now, I despise time-traveling nonsense as much as the next guy, but when it comes to superhero stuff I'll let it pass - as long as everything else is as good as we saw in last night's Heroes.

I particularly liked Peter throwing people around with his TK and Future Hiro using his katana - and the guards looking rather surprised at their entrance.


----------



## Alzrius (May 1, 2007)

I just realized something a little while ago. The little girl, Molly, that they were talking about in the preview for next week's episode - we've seen her before. She was the little girl Matt found hidden away at the scene of one of Sylar's massacres; the same girl that Sylar later made a failed attempt to get while she was in FBI custody.

Maybe that was obvious to some other people, but I just now put two and two together. It's really cool that they're tying plot threads together like that, though.


----------



## Hand of Evil (May 1, 2007)

I think the future was based on the two events, I think Claire is saved BUT Sylar escapes eating Eden's brain, Bennett hides Claire, not the Haitian.  The other event was Mohinder not coming back from India, becoming a suit, and building a relationship with Peter and never having a run in with Sylar.   This would explain some of the issues.  

I dislike 'What IF'.


----------



## The Grumpy Celt (May 1, 2007)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> ...the same girl that Sylar later made a failed attempt to get while she was in FBI custody.




I don't suppose that gives any indication of her supposed powers. Fhah. He probably does manager to kill her in any event. 

I still say Hiro's time travels are not going to result in anything we can predict, you can't fight the future, Matt and the Hatian sell out, Sylar kills Claire and Nathan eventually and Peter is responsible for the deaths of millions of people.


----------



## GoodKingJayIII (May 1, 2007)

I'm going to have a hard time getting behind the show if the bleak and nasty future we saw last night is the ultimate outcome.  I suspect we were shown that future because it _does not_ happen.  Still, anything's possible.

I love Ando.  He might be my favorite character.  I think he's shown the most development, at any rate.

Oh question...

I don't usually follow the Heroes theories and whatnot, so this was probably answered way back, but when Ando and Hiro were conned by that Vegas stripper and she cornered them under a bus and shot at them, what exactly happened?  Looked like the bullet stopped mid-flight and went back into her gun.  Was that just Hiro reestablishing control over his powers?  Or something else?  I just thought it odd that he did something like that; he didn't freeze or rewind time like he usually does.  He actually distorted the space/time of a specific object in a specific way, which I thought was cool.  But if it wasn't him, who did it?


----------



## Ed_Laprade (May 1, 2007)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> Do you honestly just half-way watch the show while you're doing laundry or something?



LOL, I compleatly forgot that the first season hadn't ended yet. I hate mid-season breaks!


----------



## Steel_Wind (May 1, 2007)

GoodKingJayIII said:
			
		

> He actually distorted the space/time of a specific object in a specific way, which I thought was cool.  But if it wasn't him, who did it?




It was Hiro. He was in his psychosomatic "no self-confidence" phase post Charlie's death - and before he gained his sword.

His eyes were closed so he didn't realize what he had done. But yes - specific time reversal of an object (the bullet).


----------



## Ed_Laprade (May 1, 2007)

Interesting. Many have been yammering about the time paradoxes, but no one has mentioned the obvious. In the original dark future it _was_ Sylar who blew up NY. It's in the new dark future (created by Peter saving Claire) that it was Peter who blew up.

But I still want to know what planet these people are living on? The writers are naively assuming that because the US does something every country in the world will go along in lock-step and do the same thing. I find it much easier to believe in Supers who break all the knowns laws of the universe than I can believe in that! Also, please note that despite all the controls, fear, hatred, etc., that new Supers are being born every day. And more of them. Obviously the Human race is evolving into a new species and if it keeps up the only way to stop it will be to kill off the entire Human race. Not a practical solution in my book.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 1, 2007)

Ed_Laprade said:
			
		

> Interesting. Many have been yammering about the time paradoxes, but no one has mentioned the obvious. In the original dark future it _was_ Sylar who blew up NY. It's in the new dark future (created by Peter saving Claire) that it was Peter who blew up.
> 
> But I still want to know what planet these people are living on? The writers are naively assuming that because the US does something every country in the world will go along in lock-step and do the same thing. I find it much easier to believe in Supers who break all the knowns laws of the universe than I can believe in that! Also, please note that despite all the controls, fear, hatred, etc., that new Supers are being born every day. And more of them. Obviously the Human race is evolving into a new species and if it keeps up the only way to stop it will be to kill off the entire Human race. Not a practical solution in my book.




Well, that's probably a question that might need delving in current political situations, but I think the idea is like this:
We are seeing now what happened when the US was attacked by representatives of a certain group (representatives might be saying to much, but they are seen as such). The world is pretty much deciding between western and islamic society now, but it can't really do  it, as there is still a lot of common ground, and the key difference is something pretty hard to define and something not very easy to measure - it's cultural, it's religious. It is hard to really identify who is friend and foe, and anyone trying to make it easy will simply fail (and might in fact just make himself a few new enemies or "no-longer-that-close-friends")

But an attack by a "evolutionary anomaly" is something extremely different - you can use physical and/or biological science instead of wishy-washy psychology/sociology to differentiate between the two factions. And you find out that one of the factions is pretty small.*

Still I agree it is a bit too easy to believe just because we see a common foe means we will work always together. The fall of the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia's break-down, Iraq, all indicate that old enemies can work together for some time if united by a common goal (or oppressor), but if you don't fix the real reason behind it, things fall apart again and the old conflicts arise again once the pressing concerns have been fixed or the oppressing forces have been removed. (I think we can also an example on how to make things work out better - the European Union seems a good example for former foes finding together since the underlying reasons - mostly economical differences - where fixed). Well, maybe Linderman and Sylar had a few good ideas in this area, too, but otherwise it is probably naive.

But that's also the reason why Lindermans plan should be stopped - it will fail, even if Sylar wouldn't wreck them for his personal gain...


*) Note that this alone is very simplistic - I mean, come on, how is someone dangerous just because he has healing powers? Still Sylar/Nathans policy would condemn these too, and there would certainly be a lot opposed to simplifying things down to just the genetic component, too.


----------



## Wolv0rine (May 1, 2007)

*I'm* still trying to figure out when the haitian went from "He can erase memories" to being Leach...

Other than that, loved this episode.  But like some others, I wanted Wicked Bad to see that fight between Peter and Sylar.

BTW: Did anyone else notice that Peter's entrance when he rescued Future Hiro and Ando (the way he moved, the body language especially), and the entire "attacking the building to rescure Past Hiro" scene was just SCREAMING The Matrix?  When he swooped into rescure F. Hiro and Ando he just _moved_ like Neo, doing that whole swirling, swimming-through-the-air thing...  and when he and Hiro were fighting the guards, I couldn't resist looking over at my partner and saying "Guns...  lots of guns..."  *chuckles*


----------



## dravot (May 1, 2007)

Wolv0rine said:
			
		

> *I'm* still trying to figure out when the haitian went from "He can erase memories" to being Leach...




He always had it.  I think that they're different manifestations of the same power (much like Hiro can stop time, teleport and time travel).  Don't forget that Matt-the-psicop tried to read Bennett and couldn't because the Haitian was with Bennett at the time.  He tried as hard as he could, and got a nosebleed and a little bit of information.


----------



## Thornir Alekeg (May 1, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> It seems like the key hero Sylar wanted was Claire. He pretty much said that when he finally caught her. So my thought is you keep him from finding Claire either you let her die in the fire, or put a branch in her head.



 So, Hiro had it backwards: Kill the cheerleader, Save the World


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 1, 2007)

Ed_Laprade said:
			
		

> Interesting. Many have been yammering about the time paradoxes, but no one has mentioned the obvious. In the original dark future it _was_ Sylar who blew up NY. It's in the new dark future (created by Peter saving Claire) that it was Peter who blew up.




Well, if we assume that FutureHiro actually did cut Sylar and Sylar healed, then that leads us to the fact that Hiro can alter the timeline, but doing so does not alter his perception of it, much like he can move while time is frozen.

Before alteration, Sylar may have exploded, or maybe it was always Peter. Either way, Sylar healed after a stab, until this was changed by FutureHiro.

And, to the point, FutureHiro is a dufus for not simply going back and killing Radioactive Man before his powers expressed.



> But I still want to know what planet these people are living on? The writers are naively assuming that because the US does something every country in the world will go along in lock-step and do the same thing. I find it much easier to believe in Supers who break all the knowns laws of the universe than I can believe in that! Also, please note that despite all the controls, fear, hatred, etc., that new Supers are being born every day. And more of them. Obviously the Human race is evolving into a new species and if it keeps up the only way to stop it will be to kill off the entire Human race. Not a practical solution in my book.




I won't comment on other nations following the US' lead, but is there any sign that they actually did? We only saw the US, so far as I think.

While throwing stuff out there, we don't know when Sylar replaced Nathan. I really find it hard to imagine Sylar maintained enough sanity during the presedential campaign to win it, but also can't imagine him getting there after...

Also, if his plan for getting new powers was by going through Bennet, then he'd already have had to kill Candace before getting access to Candace... or something.


----------



## LightPhoenix (May 1, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> If he had control over Bennett it would have meant that he knew where Claire was the hold time and there would be no need for Matt to read Bennett's mind.
> 
> That is not exactly true, Matt and the Hatian were acting out of character and they were not an illusion




I disagree.

He did have control of the situation - through Matt.  We know Bennett reported the non-dangerous heroes to Matt, per the episode.  Matt could have easily read his mind to get the non-dangerous ones.  Or, the Haitian could have worked his mojo and erased any memory of taking those records.

What I got from the episode - Matt _knew_ Claire was alive, because he went to Bennett specifically to get her.  He might not have known where, and perhaps out of a lingering friendship, didn't ask, since she wasn't dangerous.  Furthermore, perhaps Matt knew about Sylar, perhaps not, but either Sylar or Nathan would want to see Claire, both believing she was dead.  Failing his mission to capture Hiro, he needed something to bring back, hence Claire.

Also, with regards to acting out of character, Matt and the Haitian weren't.  The latter is easier - he works for Ma Patrelli, it's likely he works for Nathan.  As for Matt, we don't know what made him turn evil, but that wasn't out of character, that was in character for reasons unknown.  Those reasons were even hinted at in the episode - probably something to do with his wife and son.


----------



## DonTadow (May 2, 2007)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> I disagree.
> 
> He did have control of the situation - through Matt.  We know Bennett reported the non-dangerous heroes to Matt, per the episode.  Matt could have easily read his mind to get the non-dangerous ones.  Or, the Haitian could have worked his mojo and erased any memory of taking those records.
> 
> ...



See, with time travel i try not to thin kabout it too much cause it gives you a headache.  Heck, peter or future hiro can go back into the past and kill young radioactive man, maybe as a child or something.  Or he can just takehim and put him in an unknown timezone. (prehistoric past??).  
I'm thinking there are rules and the butterfly effect is a real doozy.


----------



## John Crichton (May 2, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> And, to the point, FutureHiro is a dufus for not simply going back and killing Radioactive Man before his powers expressed.



Hiro isn't into killing good guys.  Plus, killing Ted may have altered things too much, like Parkman and Bennett would never have escaped without him.


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 2, 2007)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Hiro isn't into killing good guys.  Plus, killing Ted may have altered things too much, like Parkman and Bennett would never have escaped without him.




Is Ted a good guy? Who knows...

He didn't know what any of his alterations would do, so I don't think that matters a whole lot. There's plenty of plot reasons why perhaps he couldn't find/kill Ted, but I still think it makes more sense than "prevent Sylar from getting healing". How about prevent Sylar from meeting Doctor guy? How about preventing Sylar from meeting Ted...


----------



## John Crichton (May 2, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Is Ted a good guy? Who knows...



Is he a bad guy?  



			
				Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> He didn't know what any of his alterations would do, so I don't think that matters a whole lot. There's plenty of plot reasons why perhaps he couldn't find/kill Ted, but I still think it makes more sense than "prevent Sylar from getting healing". How about prevent Sylar from meeting Doctor guy? How about preventing Sylar from meeting Ted...



See, this is the problem with your plan:  Hiro doesn't even have all the information we have regarding history.  You may be able to see specific times where Hiro could have made a difference, but he can't.


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 2, 2007)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Is he a bad guy?
> 
> See, this is the problem with your plan:  Hiro doesn't even have all the information we have regarding history.  You may be able to see specific times where Hiro could have made a difference, but he can't.





He knew about Claire though?

Ted is at least in some FBI database and maybe some newspapers, it's possible that there is info on him.

It's not a major thing, just one of the little flaws of an otherwise good show.

Heck, at least stopping Sylar at some early point should have been mentioned.


----------



## John Crichton (May 2, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> He knew about Claire though?



Sure, because Peter knew about Claire and they are buds.


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 2, 2007)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Sure, because Peter knew about Claire and they are buds.




How did Peter know about Claire in the original timeline though?


----------



## John Crichton (May 2, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> How did Peter know about Claire in the original timeline though?



 Since we haven't seen this timeline you are talking about, there could be any number of ways, especially with all the character connections through parents, events and such.


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 2, 2007)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Since we haven't seen this timeline you are talking about, there could be any number of ways, especially with all the character connections through parents, events and such.




Original timeline, where Sylar killed Claire and thus had the power to heal when Hiro stabbed him. Claire was dead before Peter or Nathan met her.

It's entirely possible Bennet told them what Claires power was and such, we don't know, that's my point.

It just seems Ted is a lot more Public Record than Claire was.


----------



## Nellisir (May 2, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> He knew about Claire though?




I don't think he did know about Claire.  It may not click with the last episode, or we may not have the information we need, but Hiro didn't say "save Claire Bennett, save the world".  He said "save the cheerleader".  And he could have gotten that from Isaac's drawings & articles about Sylar's murders.

I'm not sure how he would have known her relationship to HRG, but ce la vie.


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 2, 2007)

Nellisir said:
			
		

> I don't think he did know about Claire.  It may not click with the last episode, or we may not have the information we need, but Hiro didn't say "save Claire Bennett, save the world".  He said "save the cheerleader".  And he could have gotten that from Isaac's drawings & articles about Sylar's murders.
> 
> I'm not sure how he would have known her relationship to HRG, but ce la vie.




He chose that moment to stop Sylar from getting the healing power, AFAIK.


----------



## John Crichton (May 2, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Original timeline, where Sylar killed Claire and thus had the power to heal when Hiro stabbed him. Claire was dead before Peter or Nathan met her.
> 
> It's entirely possible Bennet told them what Claires power was and such, we don't know, that's my point.
> 
> It just seems Ted is a lot more Public Record than Claire was.



And again, that is fine, but Hiro is not the kinda guy who would want to kill someone who could be an innocent.  He chose to try and save someone to fix a situation he was directly involved in, which was the attempted killing of Sylar.  So, by his logic, getting rid of the healing power would let him finish the job and prevent the explosion.

He's probably done the majority of his research through word of mouth and his own experiences.  The rest is too inaccurate for him to effect it by going back in time.  It is a risk/reward thing and was very calculated.


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 2, 2007)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> And again, that is fine, but Hiro is not the kinda guy who would want to kill someone who could be an innocent.  He chose to try and save someone to fix a situation he was directly involved in, which was the attempted killing of Sylar.  So, by his logic, getting rid of the healing power would let him finish the job and prevent the explosion.




One of the old Shadowrun debates always revolved around the innocence of the Corp Guards you mow down when you need to mow down guards. I can't recall the specific instance that is mentioned about Hiro's offscreen butchering, but he seemed clearly capable of killing any cops that got in his way from saving Hiro.

But, I guess gacking Ted to save all the lives Ted has cost is not worthwhile. Even just the direct lives he's cost...



> He's probably done the majority of his research through word of mouth and his own experiences.  The rest is too inaccurate for him to effect it by going back in time.  It is a risk/reward thing and was very calculated.




Well, at what point does the lack of any of this become a flaw of the material? At what point can you safely say "yeah, the writers didn't follow that one through" instead of taking it on faith that there is a specific reason Save The Cheerleader was chosen by Hiro and we just haven't gotten all the information?


----------



## John Crichton (May 2, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> One of the old Shadowrun debates always revolved around the innocence of the Corp Guards you mow down when you need to mow down guards. I can't recall the specific instance that is mentioned about Hiro's offscreen butchering, but he seemed clearly capable of killing any cops that got in his way from saving Hiro.
> 
> But, I guess gacking Ted to save all the lives Ted has cost is not worthwhile. Even just the direct lives he's cost...



Ted cost lives?  Since when?  It was Sylar/Peter.

That aside, Hiro has been labeled a terrorist and killed some mooks in a continued attempt to save NY.  It's a different situation than a carefully planned murder.  And all ethics talk aside, Ted is a bit player and harder to find in the past.  The cheerleader is the easiest link and possibly the only one he could find.

By your logic, Hiro should have just gone back in time and killed Sylar out of the womb.  Not so easy to do without really screwing up the timeline even more.  There are two things at play here:  The need to stop Sylar without corrupting the timeline from the point where the explosion happens.  And he obviously wants to do this without taking more lives.



			
				Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Well, at what point does the lack of any of this become a flaw of the material? At what point can you safely say "yeah, the writers didn't follow that one through" instead of taking it on faith that there is a specific reason Save The Cheerleader was chosen by Hiro and we just haven't gotten all the information?



At no point do I do this if I am enjoying myself.  I feel no need to meta this show.


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 2, 2007)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Ted cost lives?  Since when?  It was Sylar/Peter.



I'm sure the guys transporting the prisoner in the ball of flame think otherwise...



> That aside, Hiro has been labeled a terrorist and killed some mooks in a continued attempt to save NY.  It's a different situation than a carefully planned murder.  And all ethics talk aside, Ted is a bit player and harder to find in the past.  The cheerleader is the easiest link and possibly the only one he could find.



Like I said, Ted is arrested, escapes FBI custody in a fiery manner, and knowing how Sylar's power works, they knew he had to have gotten it from somewhere. Ted is easier to track than Claire, simply by virtue of Claire having a mostly defensive power that had not really gone public yet.

That aside from "mooks" not counting as people though.



> By your logic, Hiro should have just gone back in time and killed Sylar out of the womb.  Not so easy to do without really screwing up the timeline even more.  There are two things at play here:  The need to stop Sylar without corrupting the timeline from the point where the explosion happens.  And he obviously wants to do this without taking more lives.



I think optimum might have been to prevent Sylar from ever learning of his potential powers by arranging to never meet Mohinders father.

But, as I said earlier, we don't know what impact any of this has on the timeline, and neither does Hiro, so that's a non-issue.



> At no point do I do this if I am enjoying myself.  I feel no need to meta this show.




I can enjoy a flawed show and still recognize flaws in the material, I was just curious about it given your defense of the way it happened in show.

I'm curious if we'll get more of Hiro's father actually. I was sort of hoping to see something about him connected with Petrelli Sr and Linderman.


----------



## John Crichton (May 2, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> I think optimum might have been to prevent Sylar from ever learning of his potential powers by arranging to never meet Mohinders father.
> 
> But, as I said earlier, we don't know what impact any of this has on the timeline, and neither does Hiro, so that's a non-issue.



No, that's the entire issue.  Hiro has to make these changes as passively as he can as to not disrupt things too much.  That's why he needed to trust Peter to save Claire, rather than showing up himself.

And it is because Claire is a minor player that saving her would have the least effect on things in the timeline, so you are on to something there that I hadn't considered until now.



			
				Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> I can enjoy a flawed show and still recognize flaws in the material, I was just curious about it given your defense of the way it happened in show.



For the record, the show defends itself.  I'm just pointing things out the way they have been presented.  If it comes off as defense at all, it's because you are attacking it.    I think they have done an admirable job presenting how all the time/precog/seer powers work and how they all fit together.



			
				Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> I'm curious if we'll get more of Hiro's father actually. I was sort of hoping to see something about him connected with Petrelli Sr and Linderman.



I'm sure we will.  Those types of guest stars usually come back into play for major plot points.  Otherwise, why have them show up in the first place?


----------



## The Grumpy Celt (May 2, 2007)

Actually, Hiro is going to have to go back and stop Kring from creating the show in the first place. It's the only way to be certain he has stopped Sylar. 

All the time travel is non-sense. All the predictions have always come true, regardless of what anyone does to alter them or stop them. You can't fight the future. Or the writers.


----------



## John Crichton (May 2, 2007)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> All the time travel is non-sense. All the predictions have always come true, regardless of what anyone does to alter them or stop them. You can't fight the future. Or the writers.



They don't have to fight the future.  They are superheroes.  Besides, they gotta give the time-traveler something to do.


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 2, 2007)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> For the record, the show defends itself.  I'm just pointing things out the way they have been presented.  If it comes off as defense at all, it's because you are attacking it.    I think they have done an admirable job presenting how all the time/precog/seer powers work and how they all fit together.



Actually a lot of the "defense" comes from supposition of things we're never given. Hiro's consideration of timelines doesn't really have a concrete part in the show, so we can assume or debate either way. And, the subject came up because I said Hiro was a dufus for not killing Sylar, not because I attacked the show. 

For precog powers, the paintings have been done good, showing the truth while still leaving wiggle room, but Peter's dreams are hardly prophetic, so the power is not as clearly defined.

I personally don't think we'll have The Bomb, simply because it would pin down future seasons into the timeline.



> I'm sure we will.  Those types of guest stars usually come back into play for major plot points.  Otherwise, why have them show up in the first place?




Because guest stars might draw in folks during sweeps? 

Sidenote:

So, Hiro goes to Bennet to get help, he says he only wants the ones he brought to Bennet: DL, Candace, Molly...

So, we know Sylar has eaten DL & Candace.

So, Bennet gave them to (possibly) Parkman, who gave them to...?

If Sylar is only Nathan once he has Candaces powers, how does he gain Candaces powers?


----------



## Krug (May 2, 2007)

I won't try to figure out all the time-stuff in my head, but just enjoy the ep for what it was. Peter doing a Keanu, some nice twists, and after last week's disappointing ep, a return to quality. Can't wait for next week!

BTW, trailer for next week's Ep.


----------



## Hand of Evil (May 2, 2007)

How much do want to bet the scar ends up on Sylar before it is said and done.


----------



## PhoenixDarkDirk (May 2, 2007)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Ted cost lives?  Since when?  It was Sylar/Peter.




Ted killed his wife and her doctor.


----------



## D.Shaffer (May 2, 2007)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> All the time travel is non-sense. All the predictions have always come true, regardless of what anyone does to alter them or stop them. You can't fight the future. Or the writers.



The show's writers/creators dont agree with you.  In fact, they've actually pointed out a few places where the future HAS changed.

See Here


> Short answer: Nope. Long answer, is of course, far more complicated. Future Hiro came back to tell Peter to save the cheerleader, changing the past minimally, but perhaps somewhat. Peter called Hiro, setting Hiro (or Hiro Prime as we geekily refer to him) down a slightly different path.
> 
> ...
> 
> but because of Hiro's involvement there are small details that have been changed throughout the series. (Similar to what we droned on about earlier with both Hiros) Isaac's loft is different than when Hiro went there the first time (Remember all the Helix paintings?). Hiro's life changed when he jumped back to the Subway, then Isaac's life changed when he met Hiro in Odessa.


----------



## Arnwyn (May 2, 2007)

GoodKingJayIII said:
			
		

> I'm going to have a hard time getting behind the show if the bleak and nasty future we saw last night is the ultimate outcome.



I entirely agree with that. If something like that did occur, it certainly would feel like a pointless season. (And, while some might say it's the "journey" that counts - and I would agree - I still don't want to come away from a show when all is said and done with a bad feeling. I'm watching a show called _Heroes_ because I expect it to live up to it's name.)

In any case, I don't believe the dark future is how it'll end up.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (May 2, 2007)

Personally I'd love to see a season set in that bleak future, but I love "bad" endings.  Overall I loved, loved, loved last episode.  This show is so much more fun to watch than my other favorite networks show its not even funny anymore.


----------



## Taelorn76 (May 2, 2007)

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> I entirely agree with that. If something like that did occur, it certainly would feel like a pointless season. (And, while some might say it's the "journey" that counts - and I would agree - I still don't want to come away from a show when all is said and done with a bad feeling. I'm watching a show called _Heroes_ because I expect it to live up to it's name.)
> 
> In any case, I don't believe the dark future is how it'll end up.




There is the chance that the key to saving the world is not stopping the bomb but just stopping Sylar. The bomb could go off without the dark future for Supers. If Sylar doesn't become President some of the laws and genocide plots go away.


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 2, 2007)

Krug said:
			
		

> I won't try to figure out all the time-stuff in my head, but just enjoy the ep for what it was. Peter doing a Keanu, some nice twists, and after last week's disappointing ep, a return to quality. Can't wait for next week!




I definetly think more could have been done well in the Future, enough to have filled half of last episode and greatly improved it. Of course, last weeks cliffhanger was great, so I guess that had to be a stopping point.

It was nice to see some actual fighting going on, too often the confrontations on the show have felt more like "roll 1d20 for success" without a lot of ebb & flow. The Sylar vs Peter thing was greatly done and Parkman had some good stuff. I'd have liked the Haitian to do more, and perhaps get more about Linderman and Mother Petrelli, but not enough time.


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 2, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> There is the chance that the key to saving the world is not stopping the bomb but just stopping Sylar. The bomb could go off without the dark future for Supers. If Sylar doesn't become President some of the laws and genocide plots go away.




Heck, Sylar flying away might have ended any number of chances for Sylar to set up his Super Powered Brain Farms.

Still, I think the bomb going off and opening up Supers to public perception hinders the second season "discovery" process more than it adds to the fun of the world.


----------



## The Grumpy Celt (May 2, 2007)

D.Shaffer said:
			
		

> In fact, they've actually pointed out a few places where the future HAS changed.




Piffle. Every single one of Isaac’s paintings has come true. He painted New York blown up, ergo New York will get blown up. And Nathan/Sylar becomes President.


----------



## Taelorn76 (May 2, 2007)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> Piffle. Every single one of Isaac’s paintings has come true. He painted New York blown up, ergo New York will get blown up. And Nathan/Sylar becomes President.




Yes NY blows up, but maybe Nathan becomes President, not Sylar


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 2, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Yes NY blows up, but maybe Nathan becomes President, not Sylar




I'm not sure when Sylar replaced Nathan though. Nathan became congressman at Blast Day, and 5 years later he's been president for an indetermined amount of time. We don't know how much of the initiatives were Nathan/ Lindermans, and how much were Sylar.


----------



## Umbran (May 2, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> I think optimum might have been to prevent Sylar from ever learning of his potential powers by arranging to never meet Mohinders father.




With single acts of time travel, "never" is difficult to arrange.  Discrete events can be altered through discrete individual time-travel events. But, given that Dr. Suresh the Elder was _seeking out_ powered people, how do you ensure he can never encounter Sylar?  Loiter around and nudge him every time he goes in that general direction?


----------



## Steel_Wind (May 2, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Original timeline, where Sylar killed Claire and thus had the power to heal when Hiro stabbed him. Claire was dead before Peter or Nathan met her.




Look - you simply don't know this.

We don't even know that Sylar ever killed Claire. The only shot we have is a brief sketch showing a dead cheerleader.  It could be Jackie. It could have always been Jackie.

We also don't know that the future timeline depcted in episode 20 was one in which Peter saved Claire. There are good reasons to believe that it was not.

Nathan / Sylar believed Claire to be dead. Why? No reason given - but HRG seemed to want everyone to believe that. Claire was not in hiding via Angela Petrelli in France or anywhere else. She was in hiding via HRG and always had been.  Very, very odd. But the fact that Hiro believed her to be alive - for no other reason than she was saved at Homecoming - was enough to make HRG act to kill him.

If the mere fact she had been saved at Homecoming was already known to Nathan (as it is in the present timeline) why would that have motivated HRG to betray Hiro?

And Candice would trust HRG to hide her? After she had betrayed him and his family? I don't think so.  Unless of course - that betrayal never happened because Claire was never exposed by the Homecoming incident and the events that followed it.

It does not add up. 

And Peter still has a scar. There is no indication he has super healing at all in the future. Maybe he does - and maybe he doesn't.  That does not add up either.

As for Sylar healing after he was stabbed in the "other timeline", that assumes:

*a* - it was Sylar who was stabbed and not somebody appearing to be Sylar who had regen power; or,

*b*- it was Sylar who was stabbed and had regen powers and thatr he was not healed by Linderman or someone else who had healing powers.

In short - _way way way _ too many "we know for a fact" statements being made in this thread when, in fact, we have very few absolutes to go on and the circumstantal evidence does not add up.


----------



## Hand of Evil (May 2, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> I'm not sure when Sylar replaced Nathan though. Nathan became congressman at Blast Day, and 5 years later he's been president for an indetermined amount of time. We don't know how much of the initiatives were Nathan/ Lindermans, and how much were Sylar.



Plus, Sylar, no matter how smart he is, lacks the polictical edge that Nathan has.  You have to ask yourself if Sylar could pull off an election campaign.


----------



## Truth Seeker (May 2, 2007)

Oh yes he can, anyone remembered the waitress that Hiro was involved with? He can do everything, just by a textbook reponse.


			
				Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> Plus, Sylar, no matter how smart he is, lacks the polictical edge that Nathan has.  You have to ask yourself if Sylar could pull off an election campaign.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 2, 2007)

There are still a lot of unanswered questions, but here are my theories:
I think Hiro cannot simply go back and undo everything bad that happens. If he does, he creates a paradoxon - why should a Hiro in the altered timeline universe attempt to jump back in time and kill Sylar. Hiro needs a reason to stop Sylar - a nuclear destruction of New York is a good reason, but serial-murdering superheroes (and innocent bystanders) is still a good reason to take out Sylar.
Maybe that's also what the future Hiro referred to - there is a possible fall-out with his time-travel, so he must be careful.

What I am not sure about is wether it was always Peter that exploded -
It is possible that he didn't do it in the first time line. His dreams of him exploding appeared only after he saved Claire.
The reason for him or Sylar exploding might be a result of them fighting each other to a stand-still. 
In the first iteration, Sylar went nuclear because this was the only way to stop Peter (who didn't have Claire's regeneration.)
In the second iteration, Peter went nuclear because this seemed the only way to stop Sylar (who didn't have claire's regeneration). 
There are still a few holes in this theory, and it's obviously not necessary to have different people being the bomb. If it in fact are, my theory is the third bomb will be Ted. 

The last show did indicate that Sylar and Nathan will meet (violently), and Sylar will also meet the illusionist before the battle. (Otherwise, he would have a hard time faking Nathan convincingly, and faking his death)

What I began to wonder regarding the previous episode:
If Ma Petrelli is acquinted with Linderman, does she also work for him? If he does, didn't Claire just run from one branch of Lindermans conspiracy (Primatech) to another one (Family Petrelli)? Or is there more going on?


----------



## WayneLigon (May 2, 2007)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> Plus, Sylar, no matter how smart he is, lacks the polictical edge that Nathan has.  You have to ask yourself if Sylar could pull off an election campaign.




Neither one of them has to have any edge. Linderman has the election fixed; he first tried it through mundane electronic means but now he has Micah to do it for him. 

Sylar might actually better at it than Nathan is; he has the waitresses power plus his own ability to 'figure out how to fix things'. 

Hmm. A nasty thought. Micah refuses to do what Linderman asks, so Linderman calls on one other person who can 'fix' things: Sylar. *shudder*


----------



## Dire Bare (May 2, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Well, if we assume that FutureHiro actually did cut Sylar and Sylar healed, then that leads us to the fact that Hiro can alter the timeline, but doing so does not alter his perception of it, much like he can move while time is frozen.
> 
> Before alteration, Sylar may have exploded, or maybe it was always Peter. Either way, Sylar healed after a stab, until this was changed by FutureHiro.
> 
> ...




Hiro has never met Ted the Exploding Man . . . at least not yet.  Hard to figure out how to go back thru time to kill a guy if you don't know who he is.

A lot of people keep judging characters based on the information that we AS VIEWERS know, but the characters do not.


----------



## Umbran (May 2, 2007)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> What I am not sure about is wether it was always Peter that exploded -
> ...
> There are still a few holes in this theory, and it's obviously not necessary to have different people being the bomb. If it in fact are, my theory is the third bomb will be Ted.




The basic hole in the theory is Linderman, who claims to be setting the whole thing up.  

Note that now, we have a conflict - Linderman's plan was to use Peter.  When he thought Peter was dead, he called in Micah, not Ted....

Now, with Peter still alive, things get a little... messy?


----------



## Taelorn76 (May 2, 2007)

Umbran said:
			
		

> The basic hole in the theory is Linderman, who claims to be setting the whole thing up.
> 
> Note that now, we have a conflict - Linderman's plan was to use Peter.  When he thought Peter was dead, he called in Micah, not Ted....
> 
> Now, with Peter still alive, things get a little... messy?




I think he would call in Micah regardless to rig the election ballots.

Also how does Linderman know Peter is dead?


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 2, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Look - you simply don't know this.
> 
> We don't even know that Sylar ever killed Claire. The only shot we have is a brief sketch showing a dead cheerleader.  It could be Jackie. It could have always been Jackie.



Always we know is what FutureHiro said. He stabbed Sylar, but Sylar healed. He tracked this to Claire. If we're going to assume FutureHiro is completely wrong, than we have no basis to move from.



> We also don't know that the future timeline depcted in episode 20 was one in which Peter saved Claire. There are good reasons to believe that it was not.
> 
> Nathan / Sylar believed Claire to be dead. Why?



Assumes facts not in evidence, we don't know he assumed she was dead.



> No reason given - but HRG seemed to want everyone to believe that. Claire was not in hiding via Angela Petrelli in France or anywhere else. She was in hiding via HRG and always had been.  Very, very odd. But the fact that Hiro believed her to be alive - for no other reason than she was saved at Homecoming - was enough to make HRG act to kill him.



She was in hiding, did they ever say she was reported dead? Even so, the original homecoming death wasn't mentioned. We don't know how she went into hiding.



> If the mere fact she had been saved at Homecoming was already known to Nathan (as it is in the present timeline) why would that have motivated HRG to betray Hiro?



Hiro wanted DL, Candace and Molly, I think he used "we saved Claire" as a bargaining chip, not a blackmail chip. Bennet decided he was too dangerous. Especially since Bennet had apparently forked those three over to someone.



> And Candice would trust HRG to hide her? After she had betrayed him and his family? I don't think so.  Unless of course - that betrayal never happened because Claire was never exposed by the Homecoming incident and the events that followed it.



We just know Hiro entrusted her to Bennet, the rest is not in evidence.




> And Peter still has a scar. There is no indication he has super healing at all in the future. Maybe he does - and maybe he doesn't.  That does not add up either.



I still figure on Haitian having blocked his power at some point. He obviously has invisibility, time travel, telekinesis, radioactivity...

I also wonder what powers he picked up in the prison break and such.



> As for Sylar healing after he was stabbed in the "other timeline", that assumes:
> 
> *a* - it was Sylar who was stabbed and not somebody appearing to be Sylar who had regen power; or,



You can create an intricately carved scenario whereby Peter had gained Candaces and Claires and Teds powers and for some reason masked as Sylar when he blew up, but the easiest way seems to be that FutureHiro knows what he saw.



> *b*- it was Sylar who was stabbed and had regen powers and thatr he was not healed by Linderman or someone else who had healing powers.



I can't see this as possible at all. "I stabbed him, he healed" is a lot different from "I stabbed him, left, then at some later point, he was alive again."


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 2, 2007)

Umbran said:
			
		

> The basic hole in the theory is Linderman, who claims to be setting the whole thing up.
> 
> Note that now, we have a conflict - Linderman's plan was to use Peter.  When he thought Peter was dead, he called in Micah, not Ted....
> 
> Now, with Peter still alive, things get a little... messy?




Not sure if it's spoilers, it's from the "reality game" or whatever (though I read it via wiki).

Spoiler


Spoiler



Linderman rigged the election electronically, Wireless unrigged it, Linderman needs Micah to rerig it.


end spoiler


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 2, 2007)

Dire Bare said:
			
		

> Hiro has never met Ted the Exploding Man . . . at least not yet.  Hard to figure out how to go back thru time to kill a guy if you don't know who he is.
> 
> A lot of people keep judging characters based on the information that we AS VIEWERS know, but the characters do not.




Actually, my case is mostly based on the fact that Ted has a police file that includes radioactivity, murder, a fiery escape from custody, and (assuming original timeline) probably a SylarCorpse.

Claire has no public record up until being a SylarCorpse.

Both of this assumes that because Sylar may have never been known to him as anything but Sylar (a pseudonym) he couldn't track him down more directly. He could possibly still track the corpse trail back to where it started though.

The episode doesn't tell us how he came to find Claire's trail, or determine which power he gained from her. Ted seems to be easier to track than Claire.


----------



## occam (May 2, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Except for one thing: why does Future Peter who can heal having his skull and forehead ripped open have a scar?
> 
> That's the part which does not add up.




Remember that Peter activates his powers by remembering what another person, the original source of the power, makes him feel like. If he could be made to forget someone he had met before... hmm, how could that happen...?

Lots of room for things to happen over five years.


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 2, 2007)

Umbran said:
			
		

> With single acts of time travel, "never" is difficult to arrange.  Discrete events can be altered through discrete individual time-travel events. But, given that Dr. Suresh the Elder was _seeking out_ powered people, how do you ensure he can never encounter Sylar?  Loiter around and nudge him every time he goes in that general direction?





Dr Suresh was a harder nut to crack, so who knows if he'd still have kept Sylar going if he'd been told right away about the TK dying. Who knows if he'd have been able to stop him if he wanted to...
(of course, he did have a Katana)

My main thing is, from the perspective that FutureHiro apparently spent quite some time researching when & where to make his alteration, he came up with Claire. I think he chose to do it in a vague manner to push certain other events along (saying "Save the Cheerleader, save the world" leads to Isaac, since he didn't say which Cheerleader...), and it's even possible that a side effect was giving Peter time-control powers at a time before he met PastHiro.

No way to judge all the ramifications, which is cool, but the logic train of saving Claire to stop the explosion seems off when confronted with other options.

As for altering the future, given he was trying to avert a nuclear blast, I can't see how he was very afraid of making small alterations.


----------



## occam (May 2, 2007)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> On another note, it has been a while since a TV show infected my dreams like last nights episode did.  My most vivid one was that Sylar got to Wireless, took her power and was using it to hack into EN World and close down threads like this one to prevent people from figuring out how to stop him.




This is so frustrating; every time I try to post, my post disappears. I don't know why this keeps happening. Anyway, I have information, from a very reliable source associated with the show, about what happens to Sylar. Peter and Hiro j


----------



## occam (May 2, 2007)

occam said:
			
		

> This is so frustrating; every time I try to post, my post disappears. I don't know why this keeps happening. Anyway, I have information, from a very reliable source associated with the show, about what happens to Sylar. Peter and Hiro j




Damn, what is going on?! I can't seem to get this post out! OK, here we go again: Syl


----------



## occam (May 2, 2007)

occam said:
			
		

> Damn, what is going on?! I can't seem to get this post out! OK, here we go again: Syl




Gaahh!!

Sylar'soneweaknessisth


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 2, 2007)

occam said:
			
		

> This is so frustrating; every time I try to post, my post disappears. I don't know why this keeps happening. Anyway, I have information, from a very reliable source associated with the show, about what happens to Sylar. Peter and Hiro j





If you actually are going to post a future spoiler, please post it in Spoiler tags...


----------



## Fast Learner (May 2, 2007)

{Foghorn Leghorn}It's ah joke, suhn.{/Foghorn Leghorn}


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 2, 2007)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> {Foghorn Leghorn}It's ah joke, suhn.{/Foghorn Leghorn}




Quite possibly it was, hence my "if".

Since pretty huge spoilers have been posted to these threads before though, I wouldn't doubt much.


----------



## Ed_Laprade (May 2, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Yes NY blows up, but maybe Nathan becomes President, not Sylar



Nathan _did_ become president. Sylar said that he'd turned traitor to the hero-mutants before he took over. Or words to that effect.


----------



## Taelorn76 (May 2, 2007)

Ed_Laprade said:
			
		

> Nathan _did_ become president. Sylar said that he'd turned traitor to the hero-mutants before he took over. Or words to that effect.




He did say that, but that does not mean he became President. Just that he was turning against supers. We see that he doesn't accept it now, and he is not in any office.

Or Nathan becomes President and Sylar never takes him out either before or after Nathan gets into office.


----------



## The Grumpy Celt (May 2, 2007)

occam said:
			
		

> Gaahh!!




(Grumpy wiggleafies his fingers at occam)

*Mwa ha ha ha ha! *_I have spoiler-killing powers!_

(Actually, I think someone just needs to poison Sylar's coffee - he still needs to eat and drink and what not.)


----------



## Steel_Wind (May 2, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> You can create an intricately carved scenario whereby Peter had gained Candaces and Claires and Teds powers and for some reason masked as Sylar when he blew up, but the easiest way seems to be that FutureHiro knows what he saw.
> 
> I can't see this as possible at all. "I stabbed him, he healed" is a lot different from "I stabbed him, left, then at some later point, he was alive again."




Yes. I can do just that.  I can posit arguments which pokes holes in the infallibility of these prophecies to remind people that in a show about plot twists and clever story resolution - the simple way ain't the only way that these prophecies will be resolved. 

And the whole Occam's razor argument has been resorted to in the past on these matters. Say, regarding the theory about the effect of Candice upon Sylar's appearance and what was the true meaning of Sylar's painting.
My interpretation was dismissed as "too complicated" on these forums a week ago.

And I was right.  This show is about twists in time and differences in perception.  These prophetic visions are difficult to evade - but they are possible to cheat.


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 2, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Yes. I can do just that.  I can posit arguments which pokes holes in the infallibility of these prophecies to remind people that in a show about plot twists and clever story resolution - the simple way ain't the only way that these prophecies will be resolved.



Until countered by evidence in the show, using theories to debate the merits of theories doesn't really have much impact.



> And the whole Occam's razor argument has been resorted to in the past on these matters. Say, regarding the theory about the effect of Candice upon Sylar's appearance and what was the true meaning of Sylar's painting.
> My interpretation was dismissed as "too complicated" on these forums a week ago.




We're looking at different threads then man. No one dismissed the theory, no one said it was "too complicated". Someone put forth that they didn't think Candace's power worked on camera, maybe that's what you're thinking of?

And, really, what does any of this have to do with the topic at hand? I'm talking about what FutureHiro said and saw, not talking about the paintings lack of definition. There is nothing to hint that Sylar has illusion powers before taking them from Candace, which happens after the bomb.



> And I was right.  This show is about twists in time and differences in perception.  These prophetic visions are difficult to evade - but they are possible to cheat.




The paintings are open to interpretation, though the dreams seem to be half-wrong at least. As such, the painting of Exploding Man doesn't really define who it is, or where even. The only thing that's hard to get around is the actual "NY Explodes" floor, and heck, maybe Floors fall under a different rule.


----------



## Brown Jenkin (May 3, 2007)

I am still thinking that these painting will stiil/have already come true but not in the way we think. Hiro is able to manipulate sub-time streams (as with the bullet) so what we are seeing with the 5 years into the future paintings are images from Hiro's timeline, not everyone elses. Because they do come true for Hiro (the bomb, a Nathan presidency) and he is a part of them, Issac was able to paint them as true. But Hiro can change the timeline for others so the bomb can be stopped without invalidating Issac's  painting.


----------



## Altalazar (May 4, 2007)

My scar theory for Peter - it is from when he exploded, and since he can control his powers, maybe he deliberately didn't heal that part of it in order to remind himself it happened - out of guilt...  he certainly seems to feel pretty guilty about it.


----------



## Elodan (May 4, 2007)

I liked this episode.

My thought is that since Peter never saved Claire in this particular future, he never got her healing powers which means he can be scarred.  Past Hiro (Hiro Prime or HP) jumping here causes Particular Future Hiro (PFH) to jump back and warn Peter to save Claire to prevent Sylar from getting her powers.

It appears that PFH's warning Peter altered the time line in the future to where Claire is still alive but since HP has not killed Sylar yet in the past the bleak future still exists with the Claire altereration (of course it can never really go totally away or there would be not PFH warning to Peter - damn paradoxes).


----------



## Steel_Wind (May 4, 2007)

Elodan said:
			
		

> I liked this episode.
> 
> My thought is that since Peter never saved Claire in this particular future (but she's still alive - implication - Sylar never killed her - only Jackie, and so Sylar never regenerated and Future_Hiro's got something wrong...), and so Peter never got her healing powers which means he can be scarred.  Past Hiro (Hiro Prime or HP) jumping here causes Particular Future Hiro (PFH) to jump back and warn Peter to save Claire to prevent Sylar from getting her powers.




While I agree that Peter appears not to have saved Claire in this future, Future_Hiro already brought the message to Peter (which is good - because he's dead before he could ever deliver it otherwise!).

The graphic novel confirms that Future _Hiro went to the past to bring the StCStW mesage to Peter Petrelli. Immediately upon returning to the future, he encounters Present Hiro in Isaac's loft.

The whole issue with Claire and Peter's scar is very equivocal.


----------



## SnowRaven (May 5, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> While I agree that Peter appears not to have saved Claire in this future, Future_Hiro already brought the message to Peter (which is good - because he's dead before he could ever deliver it otherwise!).




I've heard a few folks that think he didn't save Claire in the revised timeline, but I don't think that is automatically a given. Claire obviously WAS saved, since she's not dad. I've heard plenty of folks that think her death was faked and that she never met the Petrelli's and so on, but the show doesn't say that. It's just as likely that she went into hiding along with lots of other folks with powers after the blast.

I think Hiro is immune to his own paradox, just like being able to remember timelines before he altered them.


----------



## Steel_Wind (May 5, 2007)

SnowRaven said:
			
		

> Claire obviously WAS saved, since she's not dead.




Ok. One more time...

She is not obviously saved simply because she's not dead. The only reason we have to say she was supposed to have died at all is Hiro.  Hiro says this because there is a newspaper report of a cheerleader in Texas who saves someone in a fire, who then is later reported dead with her head cut open a la Sylar. That someone is Jackie - not Claire.  Claire is not the person who saved anyone in a fire as far as the media is concerned. The picture Isaac draws in 9th Wonders is equivocal as to who is dead - as there is trauma to the head. 

Hiro believes it was Claire who dies because he believes that Sylar regenerates - but Hiro may be wrong.

Hiro believes that he stabbed Sylar and that he regenerated and blew up. Hiro may be wrong about that too.

The problem of course is that Jackie is the explanation for the dead cheerleader, that Claire may never have been caught by Sylar at all if Hiro had done nothing to try and stop it - and there may be some other explanation for a regenerating Sylar (as in - was never Sylar to begin with, Linderman heals him on the sly - *something* ) and  - above all - Peter still has a scar.

So no. It's not obvious that Claire was saved just because she's alive - because she may never have been killed in the first place. Ok?

Worse, we have HRG turning in future Hiro just because he believes that Peter Petrelli saved Claire at homecoming. The Company and Nathan and all the rest know about Claire for events afterward in "our" timeline, so why would knowing about Homecoming and that Claire was saved there lead HRG to turn Hiro in?

Unless of course in the alternate future, nobody was supposed to know that it wasn't Claire who died at homecoming.


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## SnowRaven (May 5, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Ok. One more time...
> 
> 
> So no. It's not obvious that Claire was saved just because she's alive - because she may never have been killed in the first place. Ok?



If your only method of discussing the show is to point out that everything is a falsehood, then why bother trying to work within the framework for discussion?

Seriously, Hiro says he healed when he was stabbed, and he found the cheerleader and prevented Sylar from getting the power. Is it possible that's all some fabrication? Certainly so, but then for all we know the entire future jump was just a hallucination brought on by Isaac's drugs and nothing has happened at all.

I didn't say that Claire being alive was proof that Peter had saved her. I said that her being in hiding doesn't mean he didn't save her.


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## Steel_Wind (May 5, 2007)

SnowRaven said:
			
		

> If your only method of discussing the show is to point out that everything is a falsehood, then why bother trying to work within the framework for discussion?




The writers have rather carefully built in a LOT of ambiguity and false "future clues" and prophecy in the show.  Pointing those out is hardly "stepping outside the framework for discussion".

It is, in fact, the point of the damn show.


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## SnowRaven (May 5, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> The writers have rather carefully built in a LOT of ambiguity and false "future clues" and prophecy in the show.  Pointing those out is hardly "stepping outside the framework for discussion".
> 
> It is, in fact, the point of the damn show.




Ambiguity is not as omnipresent as you seem to think. The paintings might be open to some interpretation, but otherwise facts that have been presented as facts have not been contradicted at later points with any sort of regularity.

The paintings are not cut & dry, true. That doesn't mean that everything is a lie until conclusively proven. I'm still not sure how this builds to my point that Claire's being in hiding doesn't mean Peter doesn't save her.

I wonder if it was ever established that Claire was Nathan's daughter except for her actions after Peter saved her, it's possible Bennet knew of course, but he only really knew her Mother so far as we know.

It'll be interesting to see how deep in with Primatech Linderman is.


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## John Crichton (May 5, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Ok. One more time...
> 
> She is not obviously saved simply because she's not dead. The only reason we have to say she was supposed to have died at all is Hiro.  Hiro says this because there is a newspaper report of a cheerleader in Texas who saves someone in a fire, who then is later reported dead with her head cut open a la Sylar. That someone is Jackie - not Claire.  Claire is not the person who saved anyone in a fire as far as the media is concerned. The picture Isaac draws in 9th Wonders is equivocal as to who is dead - as there is trauma to the head.
> 
> ...



 Dude, you may be right here but I don't think so.

Hiro wants the cheerleader saved by Peter so Sylar doesn't get the healing power.  It has nothing to do with Issac's painting at this point.  Hiro believes that he stabs Sylar and he heals and blows up.  So Sylar needs to be stopped from getting the power which means that he has to kill Claire to get it.  It's that simple.

I'd allow that she may not have died in the first place with all the illusion stuff going on and the possibility that he stabbed Peter instead who looked like Sylar for whatever reason, healed and blew up.  But that just doesn't add up.  Care to take another stab?


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## Steel_Wind (May 5, 2007)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Dude, you may be right here but I don't think so.
> 
> I'd allow that she may not have died in the first place with all the illusion stuff going on and the possibility that he stabbed Peter instead who looked like Sylar for whatever reason, healed and blew up.  But that just doesn't add up.  Care to take another stab?




Nope.   Not until next week, anyways 

And I'm not saying the plainly laid out version is not the correct version; I am saying that it's ambiguous.  No more; no less.

But I'm for this: The key to escaping all of this Dark Future stuff will, in a sense, be up to Ando.


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## papastebu (May 6, 2007)

Dire Bare said:
			
		

> We know that first time through, Hiro stabs Sylar, but Sylar regenerates.  We DON'T know that Sylar explodes!!!  Future Hiro assumes this to be true since Sylar is the Big Bad Evil Guy and Future Nathan (
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## papastebu (May 6, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> I'm sure the guys transporting the prisoner in the ball of flame think otherwise...
> 
> 
> Like I said, Ted is arrested, escapes FBI custody in a fiery manner, and knowing how Sylar's power works, they knew he had to have gotten it from somewhere. Ted is easier to track than Claire, simply by virtue of Claire having a mostly defensive power that had not really gone public yet.
> ...



Someone should go back in time and make Sylar feel special, so that he doesn't feel the need to murder people and take their powres.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 6, 2007)

papastebu said:
			
		

> Someone should go back in time and make Sylar feel special, so that he doesn't feel the need to murder people and take their powres.



But this would immediately cause a paradox, as nobody needs to go back now to make Sylar feel special. Sylar must at least become a serial killer for anyone to have a reason to use time travel to stop him from doing something worse.
I think that might be the problem future hiro has encountered with his time travel (maybe that's what causes time rifts he talks about when he asks Peter to "Save the Cheerleader")

That's my theory on the limits of time travel in the show. We'll see if that holds.


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## Taelorn76 (May 6, 2007)

Guys, Sylar killed Jackie thinking she had the powers, but also remember that Claire walked in on it and tried to stop Sylar. After Sylar TK slammed her against a wall and she got up is when Sylar started going after her. So if Peter didn't save her from Sylar there, either someone else did, or Sylar got her.


Also on the theory that Peter looks like Sylar. Peter could come into contact with Candice and use her power to make himself look like Sylar if Hiro can't bring himself to stab Peter. Thus eliminating the whole argument of whether Sylar had healing powers or if Linderman some how healed him.


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## Glyfair (May 6, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Guys, Sylar killed Jackie thinking she had the powers, but also remember that Claire walked in on it and tried to stop Sylar. After Sylar TK slammed her against a wall and she got up is when Sylar started going after her. So if Peter didn't save her from Sylar there, either someone else did, or Sylar got her.



...or Sylar got Claire, got her powers, but she still regenerated from it.


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## Steel_Wind (May 6, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Guys, Sylar killed Jackie thinking she had the powers, but also remember that Claire walked in on it and tried to stop Sylar. After Sylar TK slammed her against a wall and she got up is when Sylar started going after her. So if Peter didn't save her from Sylar there, either someone else did, or Sylar got her.




Probably - yes. Unless the 1 minute convo with Peter that Claire had by the trophy case before she went into the locker room was the delay that ensured she would still be in the locker room when Sylar struck...


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## papastebu (May 6, 2007)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> But this would immediately cause a paradox, as nobody needs to go back now to make Sylar feel special. Sylar must at least become a serial killer for anyone to have a reason to use time travel to stop him from doing something worse.
> I think that might be the problem future hiro has encountered with his time travel (maybe that's what causes time rifts he talks about when he asks Peter to "Save the Cheerleader")
> 
> That's my theory on the limits of time travel in the show. We'll see if that holds.



Nature fills a vacuum immediately by an inrushing of the matter surrounding it.
Time and space are essentially the same thing, or facets of the same thing.
A time-paradox is like a vacuum in time. Since no new events would be created, events as they stand, slightly altered by the "inrushing", would still be accurate until something so massive occurred that some totally-unrelated event had to fill the hole in time.
Basically, Sylar could be made into a model citizen, killed at birth, or turned into a monkey, and the people who were directly related---as in taking the actions that changed events---would still remember, unless it caused such a massive inrush of events that all of history in that moment were completely altered.
The same would be true of anything that was changed, regarding the people/events that caused the change.
EDIT: I submit that Claire didn't die in the locker room because she didn't die in the locker room. It was what happened, a la future Hiro's timeline, but he only changed the particulars by warning Peter, not the actual outcome. Some more massive, and altering action was needed to prevent the destruction of NYC, such as killing Sylar, etc. Hiro might have opted for the less-intrusive option simply because he was afraid that all of time would implode trying to correct the change in a viable way.
Also, New York's destruction was a catalyst, not the end of the world, itself. The worldwide ramifications are just beginning to be felt in the Five Years Gone episode. There's more to Claire's living than just regeneration of whomever blows up. She needs to be saved in the future, as well; her power or her presence is somehow key to world events.
Just brainstorming. I hate it when lightning comes out of my ears.


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## BrooklynKnight (May 6, 2007)

It occurs to me, to wonder...why didn't Hiro and Peter go back in time and stop Sylar together? 

The "meta" reason is that we dont have a show, but I wonder what the in show reason is.


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## RangerWickett (May 7, 2007)

BK, my theory on that is that futureHiro could only go back in time to visit Peter on the subway while time was stopped, because he cannot actually alter the past. He showed up in Time Stop mode just to deliver a message. If he'd shown up out of Time Stop mode, he couldn't change anything.


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## reanjr (May 7, 2007)

Here's my take on the timelines:

Timeline A:
Hiro spacetime jumps to New York, Syler kills Claire, Peter blows up New York (survives with regen powers from Syler), Nathan becomes president, Syler kills and impersonates him.

Timeline B:
Hiro spacetime jumps to New York, post-timeline-A Hiro spacetime jumps to warn Peter to save the cheerleader, Peter saves Claire, Peter blows up New York (survives with regen powers from Claire; scar is acquired under special circumstances [Hatian]), Nathan becomes president, Syler kills and impersonates him.  Nothing has really changed except Claire is alive and in hiding.

Timeline C:
Hiro spacetime jumps to New York, ... etc... (as Timeline B), Hiro and Ando spacetime jump from pre-bomb Las Vegas to post-bomb New York and meet Timeline B Hiro (recently returned from the subway with Peter), and speculatively, spacetime jump back, kill Syler, and somehow avoid having Peter blow up with the knowledge received from Timeline B Hiro and the comic  drawn by artist-guy-whose-name-I-forgot.

As far as I can tell, the rules of the game are as follows:
Jumping forward moves one to a time in the current universe.
Jumping backward moves one to a time in a different universe, or possibly, spins off a new universe from the old upon arrival.
Further explanation: The act of jumping does not significantly affect the source universe (beyond one's disappearence), and when jumping forward, one ends in same destination universe whose history does not include the jumper from the time of the jump (as if they winked out of existence then randomly winked back in later).
Visions of the future (a la heroin-boy) come exclusively from one's current universe.

Can anyone find contradictory evidence to these rules?


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## reanjr (May 7, 2007)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> BK, my theory on that is that futureHiro could only go back in time to visit Peter on the subway while time was stopped, because he cannot actually alter the past. He showed up in Time Stop mode just to deliver a message. If he'd shown up out of Time Stop mode, he couldn't change anything.




I think it's just the opposite.  Hiro wanted to make sure the only changes he was making were intended so only wanted to affect Peter.


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## reanjr (May 7, 2007)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> It occurs to me, to wonder...why didn't Hiro and Peter go back in time and stop Sylar together?
> 
> The "meta" reason is that we dont have a show, but I wonder what the in show reason is.




Hiro determined that it would be futile without first saving Claire.  He was working on the timelines to try to determine precisely what needed to occur rather than taking brash action and getting himself killed.

Remember that the last time he tried to change the past with the Waitress it didn't work out as well as he hoped.  His jump to Peter in the subway is only the second such effort.


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## SnowRaven (May 7, 2007)

papastebu said:
			
		

> He can meet and kill Nathan later, and Ted as well--he was using the "cold" version of Ted's power, while Peter was using the "hot" version.




Sylar has cold generation powers, that's separate from any nuclear powers. He froze Molly's (apparent) father.


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## occam (May 7, 2007)

*The limits of time travel*



			
				Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> But this would immediately cause a paradox, as nobody needs to go back now to make Sylar feel special. Sylar must at least become a serial killer for anyone to have a reason to use time travel to stop him from doing something worse.
> I think that might be the problem future hiro has encountered with his time travel (maybe that's what causes time rifts he talks about when he asks Peter to "Save the Cheerleader")
> 
> That's my theory on the limits of time travel in the show. We'll see if that holds.




I think you've nailed it. Jumping back in time and removing Sylar as a threat before he ever becomes one invalidates a whole series of events, including events that would lead Hiro to jump back in time and remove Sylar as a threat. The paradox prevents this from working.

Same with Charlie. If Hiro had successfully saved her life by jumping back in time, then he would've had no reason to jump back in time to save her. The timeline heals itself to a self-consistent state, and thus prevents action that leads to inconsistency, to paradox.

Hiro's challenge was to find an action he could perform even if the results of that action changed the future. Going back in time to tell Peter to save the cheerleader is still something he can do in a timeline where Peter does indeed save the cheerleader and (hopefully) prevents the explosion. Peter just needs to remind Hiro to do that in five years. Despite the time travel, you still end up with a self-consistent timeline.

Hiro cannot take an action in the past that, in the future, prevents him from taking that same action.


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## occam (May 7, 2007)

reanjr said:
			
		

> Here's my take on the timelines:
> 
> ...
> 
> ...




That all sounds about right to me.


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## satori01 (May 7, 2007)

My thinking is more in line with Steel Wind on this one.  It is quite possible that "Save the Cheerleader" was a bit of red herring..or that the impact of that moment is not what Hiro expected.

The writers of the show have done a good job of factoring in ambiguity.  I find it entirely plausible that Mr. Bennett would chose the murder of Jackie at the High School to fake Claire's death and remove her from the view of the Organization and from Sylar.  The implication being it is the results from the meeting of Peter and Claire that help spark saving the world, which is not exactly what Hiro intended.

Future Peter had a scar that was running diagonally down his face. This is not consistent with the scar we would imagine would have formed from a battle w/ Sylar.  It could be consistent with a Katana slash...it also implies that Future Peter at one point did not have or does not have regenerative powers...which would imply no meeting with Claire.

We also know that there could potentially be 2 explanations for Peter going Nuclear.  The first being genetic instability from absorbing powers,  the other being Peter getting close to Ted.
In either case, the act of releasing the energy might not be fatal to the source.

As for Future Hiro saying he saw Sylar regenerate, there can be myriad explanations for that.  Sylar is the ultimate Deus Machina character, after all we do not know what other supers he has "ate" and what other powers are at his disposal.


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## Thornir Alekeg (May 7, 2007)

My brain is spinning from the number of ideas here.

So, I'll add my own dizzy thoughts:

Future Hiro's warning to save Claire doesn't have any significant impact in the Future Hiro's timeline - as evidenced by the episode.  What it did was change events subtly so that Present Hiro jumped forward five years and met Future Hiro - something that obviously didn't happen in Future Hiro's timeline, or he would have known he was coming.  That five year forward leap is the change that allows the future to be changed and not create a paradox, because until Present Hiro jumps back to his own time, it has not changed in Future Hiro's past.  

Snow Raven commented that Hiro may be immune to paradox, just like he can remember altered timelines.  Hasn't Ando also been able to remember altered timelines?  Perhaps Ando has his own power, and that is it, somehow anchoring the timelines for Hiro.


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## papastebu (May 7, 2007)

SnowRaven said:
			
		

> Sylar has cold generation powers, that's separate from any nuclear powers. He froze Molly's (apparent) father.



I haven't seen any evidence of this. I remember seeing Molly's mom stuck up on the wall with forks, but I don't remember seeing her dad frozen. I could have just missed it, though. I do have an eight-year-old that likes to interrupt me while I watch TV.
But what makes me think that Sylar is using a version of Ted's power is that his hands are glowing the exact same way as Ted's did when  he, HRG, and Matt escaped the company's holding cells using the "cold"---electro-magnetism, rather than hard radiation---version of Ted's power.


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## Steel_Wind (May 7, 2007)

papastebu said:
			
		

> I haven't seen any evidence of this. I remember seeing Molly's mom stuck up on the wall with forks, but I don't remember seeing her dad frozen. I could have just missed it, though. I do have an eight-year-old that likes to interrupt me while I watch TV.
> But what makes me think that Sylar is using a version of Ted's power is that his hands are glowing the exact same way as Ted's did when  he, HRG, and Matt escaped the company's holding cells using the "cold"---electro-magnetism, rather than hard radiation---version of Ted's power.




I don't know about cold "regeneration" but he defnitely has the cold/freezing ability and used it on Molly Walker's Dad as was referred to above.

As for the fight with Peter in the future - I thought Sylar was using Ted's nuclear power as well initally. On rewatching it - the poster is correct and it is defnitly ice - not Ted's nuclear power. That was the Fire vs. Ice duel of Peter vs. Sylar.

Of course - why it wasn't "Peter freezing time and decapitating a helpless Sylar duel" is unknown...


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 7, 2007)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> My brain is spinning from the number of ideas here.
> 
> So, I'll add my own dizzy thoughts:
> 
> Future Hiro's warning to save Claire doesn't have any significant impact in the Future Hiro's timeline - as evidenced by the episode.  What it did was change events subtly so that Present Hiro jumped forward five years and met Future Hiro - something that obviously didn't happen in Future Hiro's timeline, or he would have known he was coming.  That five year forward leap is the change that allows the future to be changed and not create a paradox, because until Present Hiro jumps back to his own time, it has not changed in Future Hiro's past.




Without knowing the original timeline, I wonder if Peter would have met Hiro early enough to prevent his capture by Bennet.

Other thing, I'm pretty sure the painting of Peter lying on the ground outside of Homecoming was painted after FutureHiro jumped back. It'd be doing a bit too much work for me to go timeline the paintings to see which were before and which after the Time Alteration.



> Snow Raven commented that Hiro may be immune to paradox, just like he can remember altered timelines.  Hasn't Ando also been able to remember altered timelines?  Perhaps Ando has his own power, and that is it, somehow anchoring the timelines for Hiro.



Ando only remembers what he has experienced, he was dead in the future so didn't remember anything there.


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## Vocenoctum (May 7, 2007)

papastebu said:
			
		

> I haven't seen any evidence of this. I remember seeing Molly's mom stuck up on the wall with forks, but I don't remember seeing her dad frozen. I could have just missed it, though. I do have an eight-year-old that likes to interrupt me while I watch TV.



As SnowRaven said, Molly's father was frozen at the table with his head sliced open.



> But what makes me think that Sylar is using a version of Ted's power is that his hands are glowing the exact same way as Ted's did when  he, HRG, and Matt escaped the company's holding cells using the "cold"---electro-magnetism, rather than hard radiation---version of Ted's power.




I'm not sure an EMP would really do much, certainly not vs being nuked. 

We know Peter has Radioactive Power, but heck, it's even possible he met Claires mom and was using actual fire. That'd be fun too.

He should have frozen time and sliced open Sylars head though. Lots more fun.


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 7, 2007)

satori01 said:
			
		

> My thinking is more in line with Steel Wind on this one.  It is quite possible that "Save the Cheerleader" was a bit of red herring..or that the impact of that moment is not what Hiro expected.



To add to that, "Save the Cheerleader" sent Hiro to Texas to meet Charlie and attempt his time travel saving, didn't it? Lots of events were triggered by the time-jump of FutureHiro, but it doesn't look like he expected any of it. He seemed to just want to remove Sylar from having Claire's power.



> The writers of the show have done a good job of factoring in ambiguity.




I think some clarification is needed on what you guys mean by ambiguity. Certain the paintings are open to interpretation, but when has the show reversed something done before hand regularly? 



> I find it entirely plausible that Mr. Bennett would chose the murder of Jackie at the High School to fake Claire's death and remove her from the view of the Organization and from Sylar.  The implication being it is the results from the meeting of Peter and Claire that help spark saving the world, which is not exactly what Hiro intended.




If Peter hadn't been there with Claire, she would have followed Jackie into death most likely. There doesn't seem to be any way she was saved otherwise. That aside, Claire knew her father in Future, so it would seem that she was saved. It's possible that she was simply told, but it seems more likely that the show is telling us the truth and the timeline was altered. We're seeing an altered timeline where Claire was saved by Peter.




> Future Peter had a scar that was running diagonally down his face. This is not consistent with the scar we would imagine would have formed from a battle w/ Sylar.  It could be consistent with a Katana slash...it also implies that Future Peter at one point did not have or does not have regenerative powers...which would imply no meeting with Claire.



I'm of a mind that it will be a run in with the Haitian, perhaps in the Prison Break comic due.



> We also know that there could potentially be 2 explanations for Peter going Nuclear.  The first being genetic instability from absorbing powers,  the other being Peter getting close to Ted.
> In either case, the act of releasing the energy might not be fatal to the source.



I haven't heard the theory of "genetic instability", so can't say. Ted is immune to his powers, so I assume those getting his powers would be also.



> As for Future Hiro saying he saw Sylar regenerate, there can be myriad explanations for that.  Sylar is the ultimate Deus Machina character, after all we do not know what other supers he has "ate" and what other powers are at his disposal.




Could be lots of options, it could also be that Hiro did what he did and now it has been altered. The idea that Hiro's timejump didn't alter the 5YearsPast timeline just doesn't hold water for me. It also means Present Hiro can alter the timeline when he returns to it.


----------



## occam (May 7, 2007)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> Snow Raven commented that Hiro may be immune to paradox, just like he can remember altered timelines.  Hasn't Ando also been able to remember altered timelines?  Perhaps Ando has his own power, and that is it, somehow anchoring the timelines for Hiro.




Huh, I hadn't thought of that. I knew there was something that bugged me about Ando remembering (apparently) Charlie's original death and Hiro's time-jump attempt to save her, but I couldn't put my finger on it. No one else at the diner thought it was weird that Hiro suddenly showed up in a six-month-old photograph.


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## occam (May 8, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Of course - why it wasn't "Peter freezing time and decapitating a helpless Sylar duel" is unknown...




Freezing time seems to take a few seconds (a standard action?), which would be plenty of time to get killed by Sylar. It's a nice, simple limit on such a powerful ability. Peter was able to freeze time quickly enough to avoid getting shot by Parkman, but he had a surprise round that time.


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 8, 2007)

occam said:
			
		

> Huh, I hadn't thought of that. I knew there was something that bugged me about Ando remembering (apparently) Charlie's original death and Hiro's time-jump attempt to save her, but I couldn't put my finger on it. No one else at the diner thought it was weird that Hiro suddenly showed up in a six-month-old photograph.




Well, before modification, Charlie met Hiro and they were friendly and blah blah blah. The Sylar killed her. In revision, Hiro met her a long time before, so when they met the day before, she wouldn't be surprised to see him, but instead go "hey, where you been?" which would cause it's own wierdness. Then Sylar kills her.

Either way, Ando would still be there waiting. He never comments on Hiro's reception after the revision, so it's hard to say if Hiro was recognized, though I think the conversation would have had to reveal something.

It's hard to say really. I'd actually prefer if Ando was a normal person, but having a power wouldn't alter it too much for me.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 12, 2007)

After rewatching this episode, I am wondering about a thing I only noticed this time.
- Hiro is asking HRG for a few people to help him, one of them is called Candice. Apparently, she was hidden away.
- Later, we learn that Sylar has Candices illusion power. That means he must have killed her.

But what does this mean? If he has hidden himself with Candice powers since the destruction of New York, when did HRG have the time to hide her (or when did Hiro rescue her?) 
Did Sylar hide himself without Candices powers and became Nathan just very recently? 

Did Sylar also keep the illusion of Candices survival? If he kept cutting peoples heads open after the explosion, someone must have noticed that there was still a serial killer out there matching Sylars description - Unless he perhaps disposed of the bodies a bit better and kept the illusion that the victims were still alive (it wouldn't be so hard in case of the people HRG had hidden - they had a new identity anyway and all old ties would be cut. And the occassional letter or telephone call should be easy to fake.)

It might be a plot hole, maybe I just misheard something, or there are still more things left unclear than we thought.


----------



## Fast Learner (May 12, 2007)

He may have illusioned himself as Candace and been hidden away by HRG, to keep his cover.


----------



## Nellisir (May 12, 2007)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> Did Sylar hide himself without Candices powers and became Nathan just very recently?



I think he didn't become Nathan until relatively recently -- or at least, well after New York.  Doesn't Sylar comment that Nathan was already "turning against his own kind" when he killed him?  That suggests to me that Nathan was elected president, and laid the groundwork (the Linderman Act) that Sylar exploited.  Sylar killing Nathan didn't have to happen at the explosion, after all - once he had Candice's power, he could be anyone, or no one, anywhere or anytime.


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 12, 2007)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> After rewatching this episode, I am wondering about a thing I only noticed this time.
> - Hiro is asking HRG for a few people to help him, one of them is called Candice. Apparently, she was hidden away.
> - Later, we learn that Sylar has Candices illusion power. That means he must have killed her.




I mentioned it before in the thread. Hiro mentions hiding DL and Candace, both of whom Sylar has the powers of. The logical train would be that Hiro led them to Bennet, who gave them to Parkman, who gave them to Nathan, but that'd require Sylar to be Nathan, which couldn't have happened.




> Did Sylar also keep the illusion of Candices survival? If he kept cutting peoples heads open after the explosion, someone must have noticed that there was still a serial killer out there matching Sylars description



Fun thought would be that Parkman hid the bodies, since he read Sylars mind and knew he wasn't Nathan...

But, that doesn't seem likely. More likely Sylar just took the time to actually dispose of the bodies once he had a stabe environment to protect.


Hiding himself as Candace could work, but I've decided that Hiro was speaking of First Timeline, rather than Revised Timeline. In his timeline, Hiro rescued them and Bennet hid them. In revised timeline he didn't, and Sylar got them. Bennet doesn't really acknowledge Hiro, from what I recall, so maybe that's why he reported Hiro, he was making up names...


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 12, 2007)

Nellisir said:
			
		

> I think he didn't become Nathan until relatively recently -- or at least, well after New York.  Doesn't Sylar comment that Nathan was already "turning against his own kind" when he killed him?  That suggests to me that Nathan was elected president, and laid the groundwork (the Linderman Act) that Sylar exploited.  Sylar killing Nathan didn't have to happen at the explosion, after all - once he had Candice's power, he could be anyone, or no one, anywhere or anytime.




The problem I have with it, is that Haitian and Parkman shoulda been able to know the difference. Also, I find it irritating to think that Sylar was Uber Villain and killed the president.

It's possible that Nathan passed the Linderman act as senator, got gacked and Sylar rode the wave to president. It also seems silly to call it the Linderman Act.
"To protect society, we're enacting this bill, which we're naming after the well known mob-boss who rigged my election."
::Crowd cheers::


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## John Crichton (May 12, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> It's possible that Nathan passed the Linderman act as senator, got gacked and Sylar rode the wave to president. It also seems silly to call it the Linderman Act.
> "To protect society, we're enacting this bill, which we're naming after the well known mob-boss who rigged my election."
> ::Crowd cheers::



Or it's called the Linderman Act because he was outed as a threat and taken down.

Just sayin'.


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## Vocenoctum (May 12, 2007)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Or it's called the Linderman Act because he was outed as a threat and taken down.
> 
> Just sayin'.




usually you don't name acts after the criminals. If he was a victim, maybe, but...


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## John Crichton (May 13, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> usually you don't name acts after the criminals. If he was a victim, maybe, but...



 Yeah, I thought about that after the fact.   

Could be a timing thing, too.  He could have pushed for the act and then been bitten in the ass by it.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 13, 2007)

Nellisir said:
			
		

> I think he didn't become Nathan until relatively recently -- or at least, well after New York.  Doesn't Sylar comment that Nathan was already "turning against his own kind" when he killed him?



I think Nathan is already "turning against his own kind" in this moment. The whole "let some mutant destroy New York and use it to unite the world" obviously requires the mutants to be seen as the enemy of humans.
 (In some ways, he is turning against this own kind in another way, too: He is going to sacrifice half of his fellow New Yorkians to get what he wants). 



> That suggests to me that Nathan was elected president, and laid the groundwork (the Linderman Act) that Sylar exploited.  Sylar killing Nathan didn't have to happen at the explosion, after all - once he had Candice's power, he could be anyone, or no one, anywhere or anytime.




Linderman might have made a big turn in the view of the public after the New York explosion. If he helped the government or the victims with his money and aided in taking up measures against dangerous mutants, he might have become a hero. Maybe he even became another victim of the mutants (Jessica/Nikki and DL will want revenge for his betrayal and the death of their son).


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