# How to Increase a Reflex Save



## KarinsDad (Nov 30, 2006)

I have a PC with a Cloak of Resistance and Gauntlets of Dexterity already, but the Reflex Save is still pretty low.

Any suggestions on how to improve it with other items or spells (not feats or PrCs)? Thanks.


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## Pyrex (Nov 30, 2006)

I seem to recall a spell in either CArc or CAdv that temporarily gives you the Base Ref Save of a Rogue equal to the caster level of the spell.

You could also _Polymorph_ into something with a high dex.


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## lukelightning (Nov 30, 2006)

Lightning reflexes feat.


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## Artoomis (Nov 30, 2006)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> I have a PC with a Cloak of Resistance and Gauntlets of Dexterity already, but the Reflex Save is still pretty low.
> 
> Any suggestions on how to improve it with other items or spells (not feats or PrCs)? Thanks.




Um... more powerful cloak and gauntlets, for one.

Stone of good luck for another +1 on all saves.

Custom items, maybe?


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## Victim (Nov 30, 2006)

Pale Green Ioun Stone provides a competence bonus to save, amongst other useful things.

The Conviction (or Mass version) spell adds a hefty morale bonus to saves.


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## javcs (Nov 30, 2006)

Dip into a good reflex save class that goes with the character concept.
Rogue, scouts, rangers, etc.

Be a halfling.

What level and class is the PC?
That can increase options available.


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## seans23 (Nov 30, 2006)

Recitation (Clr4, Purification3) adds a +2 luck bonus to AC, attacks, and saving throws to all allies in a 60' burst.  +3 if you worship the same deity.


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## Darklone (Nov 30, 2006)

What's your class?


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## KarinsDad (Nov 30, 2006)

javcs said:
			
		

> Dip into a good reflex save class that goes with the character concept.
> Rogue, scouts, rangers, etc.
> 
> Be a halfling.
> ...




The PC is a 20th level Cleric with class, PrCs, feats, and race already selected.

I'm just looking for spells or magic items (and the spells can be arcane). They can be any non-evil spells really (Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Bard, Wizard, etc.).


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## javcs (Nov 30, 2006)

Inherent bonuses to Dex - either from the relevant Tome or from wishes.

I think there's a couple items, don't remember what they are, that grant luck bonuses to saves.

What books are available?


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## Hellefire (Nov 30, 2006)

Ring of evasion can be handy. Don't think I've seen a ring of improved evasion though . And, of course, it depends on what you need the saves against.

Aaron


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## Victim (Nov 30, 2006)

You could also just accept a poor Ref save and use your cleric elemental protections to migitate most of the effects of failure.  It's not quite the same, but if you're a PrC'd cleric, then it might be best just to give up on your Ref save in particular.  Universal save boosting effects would still be a good idea though.

Divine Agility adds a huge bonus to Dex, but it doesn't last very long.

Mass Conviction and Recitation are both good spells in general, since they can affect a whole group of characters.  You'd be adding +8 to your saves with the combination, plus the effects on other characters AND the plus AC, att.  That should help you out quite a bit, with your clerical energy wards making up any shortfall against the most common Ref save attacks.


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## frankthedm (Nov 30, 2006)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> I have a PC with a Cloak of Resistance and Gauntlets of Dexterity already, but the Reflex Save is still pretty low.



That is the intent. Everyone except monk has a bad save. You fail Vs. reflex saves, just like you are supposed to. 

A Quickened Resist Energy Mass{spell compendium] would be a decent idea to have prepped if it is allowed.


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## KarinsDad (Nov 30, 2006)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> That is the intent. Everyone except monk has a bad save. You fail Vs. reflex saves, just like you are supposed to.




Actually, it is not *my* intent.  

There is a 20 difference between the PC's Reflex and Will saves (14 vs. 34). The intent is to make that closer to 10 (24 vs. 34).


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## Patryn of Elvenshae (Nov 30, 2006)

Carry a tower shield.


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## KarinsDad (Nov 30, 2006)

Patryn of Elvenshae said:
			
		

> Carry a tower shield.




You're a big help.

Not.


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## shilsen (Nov 30, 2006)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> Actually, it is not *my* intent.




Which is good. Because disappointment builds character 



> There is a 20 difference between the PC's Reflex and Will saves (14 vs. 34). The intent is to make that closer to 10 (24 vs. 34).




24 for a character with a +6 base save and in all likelihood not a high Dex is a little hard to pull off. Divine Agility (CDiv) would give you a +12 base Ref save and +4 enchancement bonus to Dex.


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## pallandrome (Nov 30, 2006)

Actually, the tower shield advice is damn good. Full cover is much better than a good reflex save in a whole lot of situations.


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## frankthedm (Nov 30, 2006)

pallandrome said:
			
		

> Actually, the tower shield advice is damn good. Full cover is much better than a good reflex save in a whole lot of situations.



Not when the spread wraps around the cover.


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## pallandrome (Nov 30, 2006)

True, but that would be why I didn't say _every_ situation.


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## KarinsDad (Nov 30, 2006)

shilsen said:
			
		

> 24 for a character with a +6 base save and in all likelihood not a high Dex is a little hard to pull off. Divine Agility (CDiv) would give you a +12 base Ref save and +4 enchancement bonus to Dex.




I think Spell Compendium changed that to +10 to Dexterity, but I do not know if it is an enhancement bonus or not.


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## Patryn of Elvenshae (Nov 30, 2006)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> You're a big help.
> 
> Not.




Why not?  Portable Cover's a great thing to have, from time to time.


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## Darth K'Trava (Dec 1, 2006)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> Actually, it is not *my* intent.
> 
> There is a 20 difference between the PC's Reflex and Will saves (14 vs. 34). The intent is to make that closer to 10 (24 vs. 34).




My 18th level half celestial cleric has her will save at 31, reflex save at 20. Not too shabby. Got the Gauntlets +6, Tome +4, Luckstone, the Ioun stone that adds to saves and skills and such and a constant Protection from Evil effect which adds to her saves (Exalted armor from the Book of Exalted Deeds). For wisdom, it's the periapt +6 and Tome +4 in addition to the other items above and regular stat boosts to the wisdom score.


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## KarinsDad (Dec 1, 2006)

Patryn of Elvenshae said:
			
		

> Why not?




Reading is fundamental.

Not everyone who responds does that.


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## Slaved (Dec 1, 2006)

How about that wonderous item in tome of battle? Pick up the maneuver to use concentration instead of reflex 1/battle.


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## Shadeus (Dec 1, 2006)

I have a 13th-level cleric and he's in the same boat (I think his Ref save is +9).  I defended it with spells.  Spells to consider:

- Resistance (Superior) - a 6th-level spell, but +6 to all saves is pretty nice for 24 hrs
- Energy immunity - pick an element and be immune to it (6th-level)
- mass energy resist - 3rd-level spell, this is a must have.  Resistance 30 will keep you alive
- Energy Aegis - I forget the level, but as an immediate action it seems worth it.
- Divine Agility - (already mentioned)

No Reflex saves are save or die.  They are save or take a whole lot of damage.  So another way to get around a poor Reflex save is boosting  your hit points.

Clerics are bad at Reflex saves, but good at protecting themselves.  Stick with what you are good at.  With a +34 to Will saves, I can only guess you have an amazing Wis score, so you should have spells to spare.


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## boolean (Dec 1, 2006)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> There is a 20 difference between the PC's Reflex and Will saves (14 vs. 34). The intent is to make that closer to 10 (24 vs. 34).




Use Summon Undead IV to summon an Allip. Allow it to do about 20 points of wisdom damage to you. Bingo, you've reduced the difference in saves to about 10, like you wanted.


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## Khelvan (Dec 1, 2006)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> The PC is a 20th level Cleric with class, PrCs, feats, and race already selected.
> 
> I'm just looking for spells or magic items (and the spells can be arcane). They can be any non-evil spells really (Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Bard, Wizard, etc.).




Buy a Luck Stone.

Khelvan .


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## Darth K'Trava (Dec 1, 2006)

Shadeus said:
			
		

> I have a 13th-level cleric and he's in the same boat (I think his Ref save is +9).  I defended it with spells.  Spells to consider:
> 
> - Resistance (Superior) - a 6th-level spell, but +6 to all saves is pretty nice for 24 hrs
> - Energy immunity - pick an element and be immune to it (6th-level)
> ...




Yup. You get a fair number of bonus spells over most (if not all) the 9 spell levels for the high Wisdom score. He's got 3 points of will save that I don't have. But then I don't have that 20th level ability score adjustment and something else to give it an additional +2. Maybe a higher than a base of 17 wisdom before adding all the modifications....


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## Darth K'Trava (Dec 1, 2006)

boolean said:
			
		

> Use Summon Undead IV to summon an Allip. Allow it to do about 20 points of wisdom damage to you. Bingo, you've reduced the difference in saves to about 10, like you wanted.




OP said "non-evil".


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## KarinsDad (Dec 1, 2006)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> Yup. You get a fair number of bonus spells over most (if not all) the 9 spell levels for the high Wisdom score. He's got 3 points of will save that I don't have. But then I don't have that 20th level ability score adjustment and something else to give it an additional +2. Maybe a higher than a base of 17 wisdom before adding all the modifications....




3 Prestige Classes. Good Will save for each results in 18 base.

The key to PrCs for saves is do 6 levels in each. So: Cleric 6 / PrC X 6 / PrC Y 6 / PrC Z 2 at 20th level. This results (for the classes with 6 levels) in +5 for good saves and +2 for bad saves. So, my good Will save for all classes was: +5 +5 +5 +3 = +18. +5 for Cloak of Resistance and +11 for 32 Wisdom. My bad Will save for all classes was: +2 +2 +2 +0 = +6. +5 for Cloak of Resistance and +3 for 16 Dexterity (with Gloves).


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## Darth K'Trava (Dec 1, 2006)

Unless they give spell progression, your cleric ain't gonna be worth much in the long run.... And if your campaign has undead in it, you won't be worth much either.


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## KarinsDad (Dec 1, 2006)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> Unless they give spell progression, your cleric ain't gonna be worth much in the long run.... And if your campaign has undead in it, you won't be worth much either.




The PrCs give full spell progression. So, 20th level casting.

Being a 6th level Cleric with respect to Undead is weak, but handling any situation is what spells are for. There are a lot of spells that handle undead at high level better than normal turning does. Not only that, but it is difficult to destroy significant threat undead at high level, they tend to only flee. So, turning at best for a straight 20th level Cleric typically only gives a party temporary breathing room, especially for high level incorporeal undead. It's often more effective to just destroy them with spells and get it over with.


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## starwed (Dec 1, 2006)

> No Reflex saves are save or die.



There are spells/effects which take you out of combat unless you make a reflex save. (Such as the Otiluke's Sphere spells.) That's close to the same thing.


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## Victim (Dec 1, 2006)

starwed said:
			
		

> There are spells/effects which take you out of combat unless you make a reflex save. (Such as the Otiluke's Sphere spells.) That's close to the same thing.




Well, some kind of D-Door or teleport ability offers a convienant way to escape these spells, as well as other no save situations like being swallowed (although Freedom of Movement should mostly keep a cleric safe) and Force Cage.


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## epochrpg (Dec 1, 2006)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> The PC is a 20th level Cleric with class, PrCs, feats, and race already selected.
> 
> I'm just looking for spells or magic items (and the spells can be arcane). They can be any non-evil spells really (Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Bard, Wizard, etc.).




Sure about being a cleric?  Favored Soul is a really good alternative, and also has all saves as good saves, like a monk.  A favored soul with High CHA and levels of Paladine is a thing of beauty when it comes to saving throws.  My Epic character has 6 levels of Paladine and 20 Levels of Favored Soul.  With a +14 Charisma Bonus, and various items, his worste save is a 41.  

What is great is that he has evasion.  Now all I need to do is to get mettle, so I can be immune to almost any effect.  Mua ha ha ha ha!


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