# Space RPGs?



## Metus (Sep 21, 2008)

Hey everyone.  I've been reading some sci-fi space operas as of late, and it's really whet my appetite to run a space RPG.  Only problem is, I don't know of any great space RPGs.  I own the Star Wars books, but that's definitely not what I'm looking for.  The Battlestar Galactica and Firefly RPGs aren't very interesting to me, either.  I even own the Star Trek RPG books, but to be honest, I haven't checked them out too much - the theme seems to be heavily integrated with the system, and I'm not going for a Star Trek theme.  I just got GURPS Space and HERO Space, and I'm checking those out.

Thus, I pose the question to the powerful minds on these forums: what Space RPG do you recommend?


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## Darrin Drader (Sep 21, 2008)

Reign of Discordia, of course.

Here it is in PDF: RPGNow.com - Reality Deviant Publications - Reign of Discordia

The print version is available in both color and B&W and can be accessed here: 's Storefront - Lulu.com


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## jdrakeh (Sep 21, 2008)

I've played a _lot_ of space RPGs looking for one that could do it all and do it all well. Traveller still fills the void better than any other, IME. 

Star HERO and GURPS Space were too devoid of flavor due to their generic nature — or too crunchy — depending upon my players. 

Manhunter was too clunky and, for some, too thick with 'furry' races. 

Speaking of 'furry' issues, Albedo and Justifiers also failed this test for most of my play groups over the years. 

Star Wars (d6) was actually my favorite RPG _ever_, but trying to find D6 players now is like trying to find life on Mars. 

Cosmic Enforcers wasn't really a space RPG, but a superhero RPG set in space.

Big Robots in _anything_ are a little too anime-fetish for most of the folks whom I play with. 

I could go on, but the point is that Traveller manages to do space adventure better than other games for me and most of the folks whom I have played with over the years.


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## thundershot (Sep 21, 2008)

I still had more fun with Spelljammer than anything... It was so.... fun. In my opinion, of course...


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## Ghostwind (Sep 21, 2008)

I'd recommend Traveller from Mongoose Publishing. Very nice system and setting.


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## Khairn (Sep 21, 2008)

Fading Suns (2E), Dawning Star and Reign of Discordia were the last 3 sci-fi games that I played and I would recommend them all.


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## jdrakeh (Sep 21, 2008)

Ghostwind said:


> I'd recommend Traveller from Mongoose Publishing. Very nice system and setting.




Oh, yeah, I should have mentioned that I have traded up from past editions of Traveller to the new Mongoose version. Mongoose Traveller boasts better production values than Classic Traveller, while offering the same setting and a more refined, more elegant, system.


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## Oni (Sep 21, 2008)

The only space rpg I've played was a few sessions of Spaceship Zero.  I'm not a huge space sci-fi fan but I enjoyed it a fair bit.  It's not terribly generic though kind of pulpy 50's sci-fi, with classes like slave girl, space pirate and what I played, robot.


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## WayneLigon (Sep 21, 2008)

Traveller is still one of the best and GURPS Traveller is probably the best package you could get it in, simply because all the universe info is in that book.

GURPS Transhuman Space is one of the most unique future settings out there.


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## exile (Sep 21, 2008)

I've liked what I have seen of Dawning Star, yet to actually play it though. I also like the Mechwarrior RPG, but it has the same problem you mentioned with Star Trek (the setting and the system are quite integrated, especially in terms of character creation).


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## exile (Sep 21, 2008)

I also liked WOTCs Alternity quite a lot, especially the Star Drive Setting. The Dark Matter book is excellent, though it's a far cry from space opera.

Chad


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## El Mahdi (Sep 21, 2008)

My favorite was the Star*Drive campaign setting. It was originally made for the Alternity system and then the D20 Future system. I didn't like the Alternity system, or the D20 Future classes, but if you use Star Wars SAGA rules and classes (Star*Drive classes can match up pretty well) it works really well. The best campaign setting book for Star*Drive is still the one written for the Alternity system (not the material in the D20 Future book), and it's still available as a pdf download (on ENWorld store/publishing or RPGNow). The book is mostly fluff, with very little crunch, so it's really good for describing the setting without a lot of system mechanics you won't use. The setting is really awesome. 

Mankind has spread out into space, colonizing an area 1,000 light years across. We have found numerous aliens, most non-sentient or borderline sentient, but a few are sentient and have become allies and members of this spacefaring society. Mankind is divided up into Stellar Nations, some politically and socially centered, others based on corporate run nations, but all encompassing hundreds of worlds. These nations have just come to peace after a hundred years of war. The setting is mostly centerd in an area called The Verge, a partially explored and colonized area of space about 100 light years from civilized space. A part of space cut off from civilized space for the majority of the last war. Mankinds explorations in the Verge are beginning to bring them into conflict with an unknown alien threat.

It's a very well fleshed out setting with good (and relatively realistic) treatments of future technology, and in depth descriptions of each Stellar Nation, their histories, and how they interact with eachother. It didn't seem to get much traction when it was first released, but I think that was mostly due to the Alternity system itself not garnering a large following (although there are people who still use the Alternity system and it's settings Star*Drive and Dark*Matter, with a few fan sites on the internet with supplemental material and support). For some extra flavor, there were a few novels written for the setting which were pretty good.

P.S.: Dark*Matter was a modern day setting with a premise made up of _X-Files_ meets _Call of Cthulu_.




Gaahhh! *Exile* posted first while I was writing the above novel.


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## jdrakeh (Sep 21, 2008)

El Mahdi said:


> P.S.: Dark*Matter was a modern day setting with a premise made up of _X-Files_ meets _Call of Cthulu_.




I honestly think that DM has more in common with the new JJ Abrams series _Fringe_ than with either X-Files or CoC. But, I digress. . . DM is a topic for another thread


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## drothgery (Sep 21, 2008)

Metus said:


> I own the Star Wars books, but that's definitely not what I'm looking for.




Err... WEG d6, d20 Original, d20 Revised, or Saga (released last year)? If what you own is not Saga, I'd suggest taking another look. Saga -> Generic Sci-Fi (or generic fantasy, for that matter) works surprisingly well.


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## El Mahdi (Sep 21, 2008)

jdrakeh said:


> I honestly think that DM has more in common with the new JJ Abrams series _Fringe_ than with either X-Files or CoC. But, I digress. . . DM is a topic for another thread




Yeah it does, doesn't it.  I really dig _Fringe_ too.  It's got potential.  I guess Dark*Matter was ahead of it's time.


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## Metus (Sep 21, 2008)

drothgery said:


> Err... WEG d6, d20 Original, d20 Revised, or Saga (released last year)?




Sorry, d20 Revised.



jdrakeh said:


> Star HERO and GURPS Space were too devoid of flavor due to their generic nature — or too crunchy — depending upon my players.




And I have to say, that's what I'm really finding to be the case for me.  I'm glad to see I wasn't alone on this.

Thanks for everyone's suggestions thus far; there are some great systems here I've never heard of.  I'm checking Traveller's Wikipedia entry right now.


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## El Mahdi (Sep 21, 2008)

drothgery said:


> Saga -> Generic Sci-Fi (or generic fantasy, for that matter) works surprisingly well.




I agree 100%!  Drop the Jedi and the classes work well for any modern or Sci-Fi type setting.  Keep the Jedi and they even work for a Concord Administrator in Star*Drive (an uber-administrator - and lightsabers even cross to Alternity Star Swords).  IMO SAGA even works better than D20 Modern/Future.


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## Studio69 (Sep 21, 2008)

Amazing Engine had Magitech. While not entirely a space exploration game, Venus and Mars are partially colonized and allows for exploration on three (this includes Earth) different planets (and more if you or the GM allows it).


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## Jack of Shadows (Sep 21, 2008)

OK,

Some folks have mentioned the new Traveller from Mongoose, Fading Suns, and Transhuman Space which I think are all excellent but I'll add two more:

*Battlelords of the 23rd Century *- This game is a blast. If your players like traveling to exotic, alien worlds and blowing stuff up, this is THE game. Twilight: 2000 in space.

*Worlds Beyond* - It's almost impossible to find and it's a vanity press book (you must be able to cope with some editing challenges) but it captured everything I looked for in a Traveller/Firefly type game with nice easy to use mechanics.

JoS.


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## jdrakeh (Sep 21, 2008)

Jack of Shadows said:


> *Battlelords of the 23rd Century *- This game is a blast. If your players like traveling to exotic, alien worlds and blowing stuff up, this is THE game. Twilight: 2000 in space.




I haven't played Battlelords since it was with ODC, though I would second it, as well. That said, I wouldn't compare it to Twilight 2000, as that game is known for its brutal _realism_ where Battlelords is simply known for being _brutal_ 

The ODC Battlelords system was actually _very_ similar to AD&D  mechanically, although it did have some advanced options bolted on (such as armor per hit location). So, if you have experience with AD&D, Battlelords might be an easy transition for you. 

Also, thematically, Battlelords has a lot in common with the AD&D 2e "more is better" design mindset — there are dozens of possible PC races and classes in Battlelords, as well as rules for psionics, hundreds of different weapons, armor, ships, and so forth. 

Now, if you're looking for something that is actually like Twilight 2000 in terms of plausible far future sci-fi adventure with an emphasis on verisimilitude, you may want to look at 2300 AD (which, despite initially being branded as Traveller, is actually the _official_ future of the Twilight 2000 setting).


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## S'mon (Sep 21, 2008)

Starblazer Adventures should be out soon and by all accounts should be packed full of sci-fi inspiration, even if the FATE system it uses is too postmodernist for my tastes.  It's kinda odd - Starblazer is based on straightforward 1970s sci-fi adventure comics from my childhood, but has established itself pre-release as an rpgnet darling, which has to be at least partly due to using the same ruleset as Spirit of the Century.

Troll Lord's StarSiege: Event Horizon should also be on general release soon and looks like being a clean, simple sf system, d20-based system for easy adaptability.  

These are the two I'm waiting for, anyway - though I think I may get Mongoose Traveller too, I've heard a lot of good things about it.   Starblazer is aimed at high octane rock & roll space opera, Traveller has a much more 'low sci fi' feel; higher on realism, lower on the blasters and giant space monsters/robots.  StarSiege seems to be aimed also primarily at the lower-sf end - more Aliens than Buck Rogers, though the designer says it's intended to be adaptable for various levels, which Traveller really isn't.


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## S'mon (Sep 21, 2008)

Oni said:


> The only space rpg I've played was a few sessions of Spaceship Zero.  I'm not a huge space sci-fi fan but I enjoyed it a fair bit.  It's not terribly generic though kind of pulpy 50's sci-fi, with classes like slave girl, space pirate and what I played, robot.




Hmm, the blurb text for Spaceship Zero turned me off, but that sounds awesome.


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## S'mon (Sep 21, 2008)

jdrakeh said:


> Now, if you're looking for something that is actually like Twilight 2000 in terms of plausible far future sci-fi adventure with an emphasis on verisimilitude, you may want to look at 2300 AD (which, despite initially being branded as Traveller, is actually the _official_ future of the Twilight 2000 setting).




Traveller: The New Era _is _Twilight: 2000 in space.  

BTW I like the d20 rules but have always hated, hated d20 Modern/Future's base classes - "Strong Hero" "Fast Hero" etc - which both sound silly and, being generic, completely miss the point of a using a class-based system.  They've completely ruined for me the games I've bought that use them (eg Grim Tales, Mars).  I think a good source for 'real' d20 sf classes like Marine and Academic is Traveller20, if you can get hold of it.  I thought it was a pretty good combo of Traveller and d20 rules; if you replace its Stamina/Lifeblood rules with regular Hit Points you go from Traveller-esque gritty to D&D style high-powered heroes.  It's still towards the low-sf side though but would be ideal for something like Space: Above & Beyond or the new Galactica (leaving aside spacehip combat rules.  I cannot make sense of spaceship combat in any iteration of Traveller I've seen.


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## Plane Sailing (Sep 21, 2008)

Metus said:


> Hey everyone.  I've been reading some sci-fi space operas as of late, and it's really whet my appetite to run a space RPG.  Only problem is, I don't know of any great space RPGs.  I own the Star Wars books, but that's definitely not what I'm looking for.  The Battlestar Galactica and Firefly RPGs aren't very interesting to me, either.  I even own the Star Trek RPG books, but to be honest, I haven't checked them out too much - the theme seems to be heavily integrated with the system, and I'm not going for a Star Trek theme.  I just got GURPS Space and HERO Space, and I'm checking those out.
> 
> Thus, I pose the question to the powerful minds on these forums: what Space RPG do you recommend?




If you would like to playtest Starguild OGL for me, let me know and I'll send you a copy 

Cheers


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## jdrakeh (Sep 21, 2008)

S'mon said:


> Traveller: The New Era _is _Twilight: 2000 in space.




Well, it uses the same standardized rules, yes, but it still takes place in the official Traveller setting (albeit long after the fall of the Third Imperium). 2300 takes place in the Twilight 2000 game universe, which is a different setting entirely unrelated to the Third Imperium and Traveller.


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## Treebore (Sep 21, 2008)

Traveller. It stands the test of time, and the new Mongoose Traveller has the best presentation yet, but still get the GURPS material.


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## S'mon (Sep 21, 2008)

jdrakeh said:


> Well, it uses the same standardized rules, yes, but it still takes place in the official Traveller setting (albeit long after the fall of the Third Imperium). 2300 takes place in the Twilight 2000 game universe, which is a different setting entirely unrelated to the Third Imperium and Traveller.




Yes, but T: TNE has the same author, all the post-apocalyptic tropes, and basically the same rules as T:2000 2nd edition.   Traveller: 2300 AD is (implausibly) set in the same universe as Twilight: 2000, but is basically optimistic, exploratory, and lacks any of that.  'Set in the same universe' doesn't really mean much if the genre is different.


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## Angellis_ater (Sep 21, 2008)

Systemwise I would suggest *True20*, but it seems that you are more interested in settings than systems per se (have I understood this correctly?). I would recommend _Reign of Discordia, Alternity/Star*Drive_ and the OOP sci-fi game _Trinity._


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## jdrakeh (Sep 21, 2008)

S'mon said:


> Traveller: 2300 AD is (implausibly) set in the same universe as Twilight: 2000, but is basically optimistic, exploratory, and lacks any of that.  'Set in the same universe' doesn't really mean much if the genre is different.




All I'm saying is that 2300 is still the _official_ future of the Twilight 2000 universe, whereas TNE is _not_. I realize that TNE _seems_ like a better fit for Twlight 2000, but canon is firm about 2300 being linked to the Twilight 2000 setting and TNE being linked to the Traveller setting, rather than vice-versa. 

I think it's fair to say that TNE is a lot _like_ T2K in space, but saying that it _is_ T2K in space breaks with the reality and potentially confuses Traveller newcomers by distorting facts. I know that people misrepresenting TNE as a continuation of (or link to) Twilight 2000 confused the heck out of me at one time


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## Tetsubo (Sep 21, 2008)

Jack of Shadows said:


> OK,
> 
> Some folks have mentioned the new Traveller from Mongoose, Fading Suns, and Transhuman Space which I think are all excellent but I'll add two more:
> 
> ...




I didn't think anyone else owned a copy of Worlds Beyond. I've never played it though, just part of my collection.


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## Ranger REG (Sep 21, 2008)

Metus said:


> Hey everyone.  I've been reading some sci-fi space operas as of late, and it's really whet my appetite to run a space RPG.  Only problem is, I don't know of any great space RPGs.  I own the Star Wars books, but that's definitely not what I'm looking for.  The Battlestar Galactica and Firefly RPGs aren't very interesting to me, either.  I even own the Star Trek RPG books, but to be honest, I haven't checked them out too much - the theme seems to be heavily integrated with the system, and I'm not going for a Star Trek theme.  I just got GURPS Space and HERO Space, and I'm checking those out.
> 
> Thus, I pose the question to the powerful minds on these forums: what Space RPG do you recommend?



What I recommend is suited to MY OWN [group's] flavor and game-playing style. Some of those you rejected above are the ones I have played and liked.


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## S'mon (Sep 21, 2008)

jdrakeh said:


> All I'm saying is that 2300 is still the _official_ future of the Twilight 2000 universe, whereas TNE is _not_. I realize that TNE _seems_ like a better fit for Twlight 2000, but canon is firm about 2300 being linked to the Twilight 2000 setting and TNE being linked to the Traveller setting, rather than vice-versa.
> 
> I think it's fair to say that TNE is a lot _like_ T2K in space, but saying that it _is_ T2K in space breaks with the reality and potentially confuses Traveller newcomers by distorting facts. I know that people misrepresenting TNE as a continuation of (or link to) Twilight 2000 confused the heck out of me at one time




OK, clearly your use of & understanding of language is different to mine, when it comes to discussing fictional universes and game settings.  I don't give nearly as much credence to fictional timelines as you seem to.  It'd be like calling a game based on the real 1969 Moon Landings "World War 2 in Space!" because it was set in the same (real) universe as WW2.


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## Urizen (Sep 21, 2008)

RDP is actually going to be doing a Conversion of Darrin Drader's Reign of Discordia for the Traveller system.

We'll still be doing True20 material for the setting, but I'm really liking Traveller and I think Reign will work very well with it.


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## danbuter1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Ghostwind said:


> I'd recommend Traveller from Mongoose Publishing. Very nice system and setting.




I strongly agree with this. MonTrav is one of the best space games out there.


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## Silverblade The Ench (Sep 21, 2008)

_SPELLJAMMER!_
it owns all, except maybe Dark Sun


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## rgard (Sep 21, 2008)

S'mon said:


> Traveller: The New Era _is _Twilight: 2000 in space.
> 
> BTW I like the d20 rules but have always hated, hated d20 Modern/Future's base classes - "Strong Hero" "Fast Hero" etc - which both sound silly and, being generic, completely miss the point of a using a class-based system.  They've completely ruined for me the games I've bought that use them (eg Grim Tales, Mars).  I think a good source for 'real' d20 sf classes like Marine and Academic is Traveller20, if you can get hold of it.  I thought it was a pretty good combo of Traveller and d20 rules; if you replace its Stamina/Lifeblood rules with regular Hit Points you go from Traveller-esque gritty to D&D style high-powered heroes.  It's still towards the low-sf side though but would be ideal for something like Space: Above & Beyond or the new Galactica (leaving aside spacehip combat rules.  I cannot make sense of spaceship combat in any iteration of Traveller I've seen.




I agree on all counts.  And 'high-powered' will equal 'space opera.'


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## duke_Qa (Sep 21, 2008)

Why has nobody mentioned wh40k: dark Heresy? Although maybe not 100% space oriented, I bet I could have made a long campaign based inside one of the imperial ships/fleets. you can't have a space opera before you are floating through space in a ship that looks like a cathedral. 

The game mechanics aren't too bad, and the universe opens up for alot of disturbing situations. I just love the "everyone is evil and nothing is going to work out for anyone in the long run"-mood in 40k.  

For anyone who doesn't know much about 40k(or just want to have a laugh because it's fun), here's a tvtropes link that fills you in


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## Achan hiArusa (Sep 21, 2008)

Studio69 said:


> Amazing Engine had Magitech. While not entirely a space exploration game, Venus and Mars are partially colonized and allows for exploration on three (this includes Earth) different planets (and more if you or the GM allows it).




Actually, Amazing Engine had several science fiction settings, but I'll go through all of them:

*Magitech:*  D&D in the 20th Century where magic replaces technology
*Faerie, Queen, & Country:* 19th Century England where the Faeries exist and have social rights and status.
*Galactos Barrier:*  Space Opera where people channel the force celestial harmonies.
*Bughunters:*  Aliens-esque travel to new and interesting worlds, find fascinating new life forms, and kill them.
*Tabloid!:*  The truth is out there and its your job to get it into the magazines on the grocery store racks.
*Once and Future King:*  Interplanetary Pendragon where technology replaces magic.
*Metamorphosis Alpha to Omega:*  The classic spaceship _Warden_ with mutants and robots.

I think all but _Galactos Barrier_ and _Metamorphosis Alpha to Omega_ are available on DTRPG:  DriveThruRPG.com - Wizards of the Coast - AM1: Amazing Engine System Guide

And I'm surprised no one has mentioned Star Frontiers or Buck Rogers XXVc.


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## The Green Adam (Sep 21, 2008)

*Space...The Final Frontier*

I am a HUGE SciFi/Space RPG fan and gamer with the vast majority of my campaigns over the last 30+ years being set in the genre. While I am an avid fan of Star Trek (prefer Last Unicorn's ICON system version) and was a big Star Wars fan (there is only WEG's D6 for me - one of my all time favorite games), most of my 'generic' space games have utilized the original Traveller rules.

I am currently seeking a system for my newest campaign idea, a somewhat-over-the-top space opera with a possibly comedic bend. A reworked D6 System might be in order but I was hoping to juxtapose the comedy elements with a solid, SF mechanics game. Not quite sure how to do this or what I'm looking for but if it were too easy there'd be no challenge.

Hmmm...in the realm of complex yet goofy, Space Opera by Fantasy Games Unlimited and Star Frontiers both come to mind. I'll have to keep working at this one...

AD


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Sep 21, 2008)

Metus said:


> Hey everyone.  I've been reading some sci-fi space operas as of late, and it's really whet my appetite to run a space RPG.  Only problem is, I don't know of any great space RPGs.  I own the Star Wars books, but that's definitely not what I'm looking for.  The Battlestar Galactica and Firefly RPGs aren't very interesting to me, either.  I even own the Star Trek RPG books, but to be honest, I haven't checked them out too much - the theme seems to be heavily integrated with the system, and I'm not going for a Star Trek theme.  I just got GURPS Space and HERO Space, and I'm checking those out.
> 
> Thus, I pose the question to the powerful minds on these forums: what Space RPG do you recommend?




Thanks for this topic. I am traditionally more a sci-fi then a fantasy guy, but still ended up playing D&D, not any Startrek, Star Wars or other Sci-Fi games. 

Unfortunately I can't say I have found a game so far that fully hit what I wanted. Maybe I am playing D&D too long now and the particular play style I enjoy in D&D just doesn't fit into a Sci-Fi setting? (Killing People and take their Stuff?)


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## CarlZog (Sep 22, 2008)

Alternity and Star Drive. As El Mahdi mentioned Star Drive is particularly low tech, gritty space opera with a VERY well fleshed out universe.  I would strongly recommend giving it a try with Alternity, its native system. 

Alternity has a very loose class system that does a realistic job of portraying experience. The whole rules system is very modular, and can be very detailed and bloody or loose and quick, as you desire.

Check out Alternity for a wealth of excellent fan material for Star Drive and Alt in general.

Carl


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## RFisher (Sep 22, 2008)

Classic Traveller is still my favorite. (Haven’t gotten Mongoose’s version yet, so not opinion.)

GURPS Space is good if you want to bring your own flavor. Especially one of the better options if you were going in a “more realistic” direction. For a more a more space opera direction, there’s also GURPS Lensman.

I haven’t had a chance to actually play it yet, but I think Buck Rogers High Adventure Cliffhangers looks like a great system for Buck Rogers/Flash Gordon kind of things.

And Star Cadets looks perfectly serviceable too.


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## rgard (Sep 23, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Unfortunately I can't say I have found a game so far that fully hit what I wanted. Maybe I am playing D&D too long now and the particular play style I enjoy in D&D just doesn't fit into a Sci-Fi setting? (Killing People and take their Stuff?)




"Killing People and take their Stuff"  Funny how that ends up being the theme of most RPGs I've played in; Traveller included.

Thanks,
Rich


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## Jack of Shadows (Sep 23, 2008)

rgard said:


> "Killing People and take their Stuff"  Funny how that ends up being the theme of most RPGs I've played in; Traveller included.
> 
> Thanks,
> Rich




"He's dead, Jim."

"Right. You take his tricorder. I'll take his phaser."

Classic.

JoS.


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## El Mahdi (Sep 23, 2008)

Jack of Shadows said:


> "He's dead, Jim."
> 
> "Right. You take his tricorder. I'll take his phaser."
> 
> ...




Was that guy wearing a Red shirt by chance?!


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## dm4hire (Sep 23, 2008)

I'm waiting for WotC to update Star Frontiers.

However I have to agree with Alternity.  It was pretty solid and such ashame that it got dwarfed by 3rd Edition and d20 Modern.  Probably one of the shortest lived game systems that achieved its objectives as far as mechanics go where as most shooting star products fail for lack of reaching it.


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## Silverblade The Ench (Sep 23, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Unfortunately I can't say I have found a game so far that fully hit what I wanted. Maybe I am playing D&D too long now and the particular play style I enjoy in D&D just doesn't fit into a Sci-Fi setting? (Killing People and take their Stuff?)




_Spelljammer _I tell ye! 

To boldly go where no one has gone before, to find strange new worlds, and loot them!
Or trade and seduce them!
or Conquer and bombard them with asteroids!
Or leave a trial of broken hearts and mutant offpsring across the known Spheres!

Hehe


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## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 23, 2008)

My favorite RPG is HERO, so its no surprise I like Space HERO.

However, a good sci-fi game with a dedicated setting is truly special.

Of those, I've enjoyed Traveller in many of its forms, Universe (by SPI, long OoP), Altnernity, Paranoia, Shadowrun, Spaceship Zero, Prime Directive, Gamma World, MechWarrior, Space: 1889 and RIFTS.

Yeah, I said RIFTS.

I don't usually run it in its own system, though.


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## Jürgen Hubert (Sep 23, 2008)

I strongly recommend Fading Suns for a science fantasy/space opera setting, and Transhuman Space for a hard SF one.


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## qstor (Sep 23, 2008)

Let me throw in another recommendation for Traveller. I think I've posted something similar to this like 3 times. 

There are various rules sets you can use, d20, GURPS or Mongoose Traveller. With different settings too. I'm not a huge fan of the New Era setting but it uses the GDW "house" rules the same as Twlight 2000. The TNE rules are out of print but you can download them from drivethrurpg.com. I like the d20 and GURPS rules.

As another poster mentioned the GURPS Traveller books have a lot of good background in them even if you don't use the GURPS rules system. A lot of them are out of print however.

For ease sake you might get the Mongoose Traveller book and the Mongoose Spinward Marches book. Both are in print and a good way to start a campaign in the Third Imperium. Traveller is more hard science fiction than space opera but its a great setting whatever rules system you use.

Mike


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## CarlZog (Sep 24, 2008)

Jürgen Hubert said:


> I strongly recommend Fading Suns for a science fantasy/space opera setting...




Fading Suns is a really intriguing setting, but I wouldn't lump it together with the likes of Traveller -- or any other "generic"-type space opera. It seems like a totally different vibe.

Carl


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## Jürgen Hubert (Sep 24, 2008)

CarlZog said:


> Fading Suns is a really intriguing setting, but I wouldn't lump it together with the likes of Traveller -- or any other "generic"-type space opera. It seems like a totally different vibe.




It does have its own unique vibe - but that's not a bad thing in this case. And the OP hasn't explicitly stated that he wants a generic space RPG - just that he's not looking for the themes of Star Wars and Star Trek.


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## Ranger REG (Sep 24, 2008)

Jürgen Hubert said:


> It does have its own unique vibe - but that's not a bad thing in this case. And the OP hasn't explicitly stated that he wants a generic space RPG - just that he's not looking for the themes of Star Wars and Star Trek.



Is it possible to forget the themed setting the RPG comes with and focus simply on the rules to salvage? I know I did that with my _OA_ book so I don't have to play _Rokugan d20._ I just use it for my own psuedo-Asian setting.

Some have even use _Star Wars Saga_ rules to make a _Firefly/Serenity_-type game despite the published version.


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## Agemegos (Sep 28, 2008)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Universe (by SPI, long OoP)




_Universe_ is now available as a free download.


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## Agemegos (Sep 28, 2008)

Metus said:


> Hey everyone.  I've been reading some sci-fi space operas as of late, and it's really whet my appetite to run a space RPG.



What do you mean by "space opera"? In one sense, it is used to mean "sci-fi consisting of a thin veneer of spaceships and rayguns over stock characters, stock situations, and stock plots". In another it is used to mean "interstellar sci-fi more concerned with spaceships than planets, in which the scope is wide and the scale large (tending to 'grandiose' on both those dimensions)".


> Only problem is, I don't know of any great space RPGs.  I own the Star Wars books, but that's definitely not what I'm looking for.  The Battlestar Galactica and Firefly RPGs aren't very interesting to me, either.  I even own the Star Trek RPG books, but to be honest, I haven't checked them out too much - the theme seems to be heavily integrated with the system, and I'm not going for a Star Trek theme.  I just got GURPS Space and HERO Space, and I'm checking those out.




_GURPS_ 4th edition provides a very impressive SF RPG toolkit. _GURPS Space_ has the best starsystem generation and world generation rules I have ever seen, and very good rules for generating aliens too--though they come out in GURPS terms (not quite so generic as the planets). _GURPS Ultra-Tech_ and _GURPS Bio-Tech_ are unrivalled as lists of SF equipment and technologies: consider converting the stats to your favourite game if youdon't like GURPS. _GURPS Spaceships_ is elegant, simple, and realistic (though it is possible you might want more crunchy detail in your spaceships.

_Star Hero_ has superior material on the genre itself and its sub-genres and guidance on how to set up and run an SF campaign.



> Thus, I pose the question to the powerful minds on these forums: what Space RPG do you recommend?




I notice that a lot of people have recommended _Traveller_, but the _Traveller_ universe has problems, most of which are legacies of its '70s design.
 _Traveller_ was designed in 1977, based on SF that was aging even then. Its 1950s and 1960s SF tropes are sadly dated, and it no longer looks futuristic. It has become retro-futuristic, like _Space 1889_.
 The original designers half intended _Traveller_ as a generic game, and a lot of the canon for their universe was laid down by deliberately-vague statements about a semi-generic 'Imperium'. The fundamentals of how the universe works were never designed and, in important ways have never been settled. Important facts about how the Imperium works are either unstated or contradictory.
 Most of the published detail of _Traveller_ consists of hundreds of planets that were randomly generated with _Traveller_'s lame late-70s random world generation system. Connections between a planet's size, atmosphere, population, tech level, and starport are not quite absent, but are far too weak, and many of teh results are absurd.
 For "convenience", in _Traveller_ space is two-dimensional.

In short, I could only recommend _Traveller_ to a _Traveller_ fan. If you're unfamiliar, and worse if you and your players are SF fans, you will find it laughable.

Of different versions of _Traveller_, the one I would come closest to recommending would be _GURPS Traveller: Interstellar Wars_. This a very well put-together product: well-organised, well-written, and with very good coverage. It is set during the last century of the First Imperiium, so it avoids a lot of the problems of the Third Imperium. It covers only a few sub-sectors, and is lucky enough to avoid most of the absurd astrography. PCs get to come from Earth c. AD2100, so it is possible to have a good handle on their backgrounds. Unfortunately, Space is still 2-D.

_Transhuman Space_ (powered by GURPS) is excellent science fiction worldbuilding, but probably not suitable for space opera. On one hand it is set entirely within this solar system (no interstellar travel), and on the other it allows new technology to change things so much that stock characters and stok situations are incompatible.

I'm not familiar with Dream Pod 9's _Jovian Chronicles_, but some of the people involved are very cluey, and the knowledge and attention to detail in what I have seen of the spaceships are very impressive. There is no FTL in _Jovian Chronicles_ either, but I didn't get the impression that the technology had changed what it is to be a person the way it has in _Transhuman Space_.

I bought and downloaded _Thousand Suns_ a little while ago, which certainly sets out to be the sort of thing you want. But I haven't been able to form an opinion of it yet because (1) it is too long, and the type is too small, for me to be comfortable reading it on the screen, and (2) bizarre choice of layout and paper size (pages side-by-side on 6" by 9" pages, laid out like two-page spreads) makes it unsuitable to be printed out and bound in sensible format on any paper I can get.


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## Agemegos (Sep 28, 2008)

Jürgen Hubert said:


> It does have its own unique vibe - but that's not a bad thing in this case.



This is a matter of taste, of course. I simply loathed _Fading Suns_, which in my opinion was not SF at all. It was fantasy, and very clichéd fantasy at that, in amateurish fancy dress. A fantasia of late mediaeval decadence with sci-fi trappings as convincing as painted cardboard.


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## Punnuendo (Sep 28, 2008)

Burning Empires, using the Burning Wheel system is a lot of fun. It is based off the Iron Empires graphic novels. You play out the invasion of a planet by these alien parasites. Really set up well for storytelling and you get to create the planet together with the players.

Or you could run Savage Worlds with the Sci-Fi pdfs. SW is a generic rules system that lives up to it's claim of being "fast, fun, and furious." Definitely worth a look I think.


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## Silver Moon (Sep 28, 2008)

What?  No post from Diaglo yet telling you to try Gamma World?


Seriously though, I've run three Sci-fi games thus far.  One was a one-nighter that had D&D playing characters who had crossed over into a sci-fi setting so I just used the D&D rules.   The second game had a sci-fi superhero flavor to it and I used Mutants and Masterminds, which worked very well.   The third was a ENWorld Gameday earlier this year, where I used D20 Future, and it also worked rather well due to the players familiarity with D20Modern.


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## Jürgen Hubert (Sep 28, 2008)

Agemegos said:


> This is a matter of taste, of course. I simply loathed _Fading Suns_, which in my opinion was not SF at all. It was fantasy, and very clichéd fantasy at that, in amateurish fancy dress. A fantasia of late mediaeval decadence with sci-fi trappings as convincing as painted cardboard.




Personally, I always thought that Fading Suns was one of the best games centering on occultism. Not occultism as in "mystical powers" as it is so commonly used in RPGs, but using the word in its more original meaning - with the PCs as "seekers after hidden knowledge". There is an enormous amount of secrets and lost knowledge in the setting, and knowledge of them is power.

And no, Fading Suns isn't any more science fiction than Star Trek or Star Wars are. It uses science as a source of jargon and technobabble, and is quite open and unashamed about this. But this fits the setting perfectly well - the underlying assumption is that _science doesn't have all the answers_. Science and technology tried to create an utopia - the Second Republic - and failed because they couldn't cater to the spiritual needs of humanity. But now religion and faith have become corrupted as well, so it is up to the player characters to find a new way towards salvation.

Say what you will, but Fading Suns holds a place of honor among my gaming collection for a reason.


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## Amphimir Míriel (Sep 28, 2008)

El Mahdi said:


> I agree 100%!  Drop the Jedi and the classes work well for any modern or Sci-Fi type setting.  Keep the Jedi and they even work for a Concord Administrator in Star*Drive (an uber-administrator - and lightsabers even cross to Alternity Star Swords).  IMO SAGA even works better than D20 Modern/Future.






Ranger REG said:


> Is it possible to forget the themed setting the RPG comes with and focus simply on the rules to salvage? I know I did that with my _OA_ book so I don't have to play _Rokugan d20._ I just use it for my own psuedo-Asian setting.
> 
> Some have even use _Star Wars Saga_ rules to make a _Firefly/Serenity_-type game despite the published version.





I second this. I have been thinking of running a Sci-Fi game, using the SW-Saga rules, without Force and Jedi, to play in the Wormhole nexus (setting of the Vorkosigan books by Louis McMaster Bujold)


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## Psion (Sep 28, 2008)

Agemegos said:


> I notice that a lot of people have recommended _Traveller_, but the _Traveller_ universe has problems, most of which are legacies of its '70s design.
> _Traveller_ was designed in 1977, based on SF that was aging even then. Its 1950s and 1960s SF tropes are sadly dated, and it no longer looks futuristic. It has become retro-futuristic, like _Space 1889_.




I disagree. Traveller's look isn't that different from SF of the 90s and 2000's... Babylon 5, Space: Above and Beyond, Battlestar Galactica and (especially) Firefly are all right up Traveller's alley. Traveller in no longer considered "hard", but it certainly is representative of a sort of space SF that many people enjoy.



> The original designers half intended _Traveller_ as a generic game, and a lot of the canon for their universe was laid down by deliberately-vague statements about a semi-generic 'Imperium'. The fundamentals of how the universe works were never designed and, in important ways have never been settled. Important facts about how the Imperium works are either unstated or contradictory.




Some of us find the unstated to be a boon more than a curse, as it gives us room to create stuff to fill in, but doesn't leave us the task of filling in things by hand.

That being said, there is a huge body of work for the Traveller imperium. I've tapped into GURPS Traveller supplements like Humaniti and Starports to fill in details, books that (thankfully, not being a GT fan) I can pretty much ignore if I don't want to use it. Best of both worlds.



> Most of the published detail of _Traveller_ consists of hundreds of planets that were randomly generated with _Traveller_'s lame late-70s random world generation system. Connections between a planet's size, atmosphere, population, tech level, and starport are not quite absent, but are far too weak, and many of teh results are absurd.




This complaint, while overstated, is more of less true. It really only makes a difference if you are a stickler about realism in your planetary data.

Unfortunately for me, I sort of am.  I did find one quick tweak that works wonders in making the canon system data make sense: make the size figure be in term of eights of Earth mass, not in terms of radius. You do that, 90% of the physically hosed-up worlds start to make sense (as it is, CT's rule for creating atmosphere way under-estimate the tendency of small bodies to lose their atmosphere.)

There is the somewhat bigger issue of habitable world in systems with white dwarfs, but that data is less "canonical" and you're usually safe to pencil in red dwarfs in the place of white dwarfs. 

If you are not concerned about using canonical data but are concerned with realistic planetology, seek out and purchase a copy of GURPS TRAVELLER: FIRST SURVEY. It is world gen done right for Traveller. 



> For "convenience", in _Traveller_ space is two-dimensional.




This is true, and is actually one of the major things that has me pining for a game that is sort of the "next generation Traveller". A game that seems will never be.



> In short, I could only recommend _Traveller_ to a _Traveller_ fan. If you're unfamiliar, and worse if you and your players are SF fans, you will find it laughable.




That, I vehemently disagree with. Albeit agreeing with many of your point, you are picking at points that just aren't that important to most SF fans. Traveller has some flaws, but has benefits in that it is highly playable game that most players can relate with. I have introduced many players to it over the years.



> I bought and downloaded _Thousand Suns_ a little while ago, which certainly sets out to be the sort of thing you want. But I haven't been able to form an opinion of it yet because (1) it is too long, and the type is too small, for me to be comfortable reading it on the screen, and (2) bizarre choice of layout and paper size (pages side-by-side on 6" by 9" pages, laid out like two-page spreads) makes it unsuitable to be printed out and bound in sensible format on any paper I can get.




I had high hopes for Thousand Suns being the next-gen Traveller game I was looking for. And it has many, many elements to be that game. However, I am finding I am thoroughly unsatisfied with the task system. It just doesn't seem to balance well against the chargen system. And for that matter, I dislike the strange decision to make ability scores static.

Perhaps I'll spin together a replacement task system that does what I think it needs to do.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Sep 28, 2008)

3D Space charts might be realistic, but I am afraid conveying them in text form is very difficult, and ultimately leads to no real visualization of the world.

Maybe it's best to make this a feature. Make astronomic distances irrelevant. You can open your FTL wormhole between any two arbitrary times in space. Maye the next generation Traveller FTL drives do exactly that - jump any distance, but still take 1 week of travel.


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## Psion (Sep 28, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> 3D Space charts might be realistic, but I am afraid conveying them in text form is very difficult, and ultimately leads to no real visualization of the world.




I find that using a 3D visualization tool like Astrosynthesis or ChView works wonders, an the old "travel time chart" like those that appeared in the GURPS Space atlases seem to do the trick for conveying positional information.


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## Shades of Green (Sep 28, 2008)

One possible trick would be to use wormholes or fixed stargates to create a network of stars connected by those, and then just have a flow-chart of space rather than represeting actual 3D star positions.


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## Korgoth (Sep 28, 2008)

I also suggest Traveller. But I would avoid like the plague anything published by Mongoose.

Classic Traveller is still in print. And, going against the grain here... the original 3 books (called the "3 LBBs" or 3 Little Black Books) are nice because they predate all of this stuff about the Imperium and the enormous body of canonical setting material that has come about.

In the original 3 books of Traveller (also published as The Traveller Book in a single volume, or Starter Traveller as a boxed set) posit a sci-fi setting where laser weapons require backpack power sources, where the largest possible ship is 5000 displacement tons and the setting is whatever you want it to be.

It has a feeling in sci-fi not unlike the feeling of Original D&D in fantasy: generic, but quirky. Which is what I like.

Also, shotguns in space.

I'm actually in the middle of preparing a Traveller one-shot for some folks. The tone is mostly drawn from Outland, but includes elements of Alien and 2001:ASO.

In space, everyone can hear you pump the 12-gauge.


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## Agemegos (Sep 28, 2008)

Jürgen Hubert said:


> Say what you will, but Fading Suns holds a place of honor among my gaming collection for a reason.




It is a matter of taste, as I said. _Fading Suns_ was one of my three worst RPG experience, the others being _Hunter Planet_ and _Immortal: Invisible War_. Other people like it, some of them a lot. The OP might turn out to be one of its fans one day. But I certainly don't think it will scratch his present itch for Space Opera. If Space Opera were the dessert of science fiction, _Fading Suns_ would be casu marzu cheese.


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## Agemegos (Sep 28, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> 3D Space charts might be realistic, but I am afraid conveying them in text form is very difficult, and ultimately leads to no real visualization of the world.



A 2-D universe is no improvement. You can visualise it on the page, but  every time you look at it or make decisions based on it it screams "I am not Space".



> Maybe it's best to make this a feature. Make astronomic distances irrelevant.




I did that with earlier versions of my setting: location had been important during the exodus from Earth, but developments had made proximity irrelevant. In the current revision I am replacing the star drive to make location matter because I want to make some places remote backwaters, which didn't work when it was one Jump from anywhere to anywhere.

As for visualisation: it doesn't seem like a big problem to me. Players need to know what important systems are nearby for various values of 'nearby', and how far it is from one place to another. I use an Excel workbook wih a page of positional data to calculate distances between specified colonies and to generate lists of colonies within specified distance of a specified point (which data can easily be sorted by distance.

I have a celestial globe, one of Nyrath's largest-format maps of space within 30 lightyears, soft and hard copies of the _Astrogrator's Handbook_, a copy of the HYG catalogue in Excel format, and software visualisation tools such as Celestia, but I find that players don't look at them during games, because they don't need too. Though of course things would be different for a strategy game.


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## Prince Atom (Sep 29, 2008)

Not to thread-jack, but avoid World of Synnibarr like the plague!

I can't really say that I got into GURPS Traveller that much, and I haven't really looked at any of the other versions, but one thing I've always heard about Traveller is that the biggest reward in that game is finding out just one more little bit of information about the game world. You don't have _+3 rayguns of starkly astounding pwnage_, but you can make a pretty penny as a tramp freighter crew, and get in where you don't belong well enough.

I own a copy of Alternity and the Star*Drive campaign setting. The former is very crunchy, and the latter is very creamy. I've never played it, but the dice mechanic of "roll a d20 plus another die as the GM specifies (up to rolling 4d20) against a target number" seems a little gimmicky to me.

Every time I've run a lightsaber duel in the WEG Star Wars, it's over in two turns because someone misses a parry and the lightsaber, almost always with the Jedi's Control and Sense dice behind it, cleaves someone in two. Thrilling action this is not.

I ran a Star Wars Saga Edition game, without any Jedi in it, and it went surprisingly well with space pirates/"legitimate businessfolk" in the vein of Han Solo.

(It just occurred to me that I've never thought of Han as a space pirate, although Lucas obviously thought so, because Han tends to use a blaster rather than buckle his swash with a sword. I guess dueling is Luke's niche.)

And GURPS Space is a toolkit -- SJ Games wants to let you to come up with your own space game, although their worldbooks for 3rd Edition were numerous. I'd suggest looking at GURPS Lensman for a pulp SciFi setting, but be warned: E. E. "Doc" Smith was a man of his time (the 1930's) and you're probably going to run into something aggravating in his worldview.

TWK


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## RFisher (Sep 29, 2008)

Agemegos said:


> I notice that a lot of people have recommended _Traveller_, but the _Traveller_ universe has problems, most of which are legacies of its '70s design.




All of which I count as features. (^_^)



> In short, I could only recommend _Traveller_ to a _Traveller_ fan. If you're unfamiliar, and worse if you and your players are SF fans, you will find it laughable.




Well, my group—none of whom had played Traveller before—seemed to enjoy it.



Korgoth said:


> Classic Traveller is still in print. And, going against the grain here... the original 3 books (called the "3 LBBs" or 3 Little Black Books) are nice because they predate all of this stuff about the Imperium and the enormous body of canonical setting material that has come about.




I’d recommend getting ahold of Starter Traveller. I like the layout a lot. It has some examples that the 3 LBBs don’t have, which are nice. Plus, it can be handy to have duplication on the equipment lists and chargen stuff when creating characters.

ST isn’t really a replacement for the 3 LBBs for me, because there are a couple of things from the 3 LLBs that it lacks. (e.g. experience)

I also like to use the _Citizens of the Imperium_ supplement for some non-military careers besides Other.

And, as I think I already mentioned, I think Book 0 is worth having as well. (If nothing else, the probability tables and index to the first 3 books can be handy.)


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## The Green Adam (Sep 29, 2008)

*One complaint/rant about Space RPGs...*

Artist rant coming online in 3...2...1....

Why is the art work in most Sci-Fi/Space RPGs so gawdawefully horrible?! I mean, a quick look through deviantart, concept art forums and even, dare I say it, elfwood! provides better illustrations of spaceships, aliens and gear then is seen in professional products. Nothing personal to the artists of Mongoose Traveller but my lord was the art terrible. I'm willing to attribute it to poor production values or tight deadlines or anything else that will make Mongoose feel better but as a Sci-Fi Fan, Traveller Fan, Gamer and Artist I was practically offended. This is 2008 guys. Our desktop computers have art programs will more rendering power then a computer in the original edition of the Traveller universe could generate.

Please someone make a Sci-Fi game other then those with a licensed IP that I actually want to look at. Please.

Thanks. Sorry. I'm ok. The medibots are here and I'm good now.

AD

P.S. Putting my credits where my mouth is...I'm no art prodigy but this is Imperial Battle Dress from my Traveller campagin universe:







Colors indicate the Glimmerdrift Reaches Sector.


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## Oni (Sep 29, 2008)

The Green Adam said:


> Artist rant coming online in 3...2...1....
> 
> Why is the art work in most Sci-Fi/Space RPGs so gawdawefully horrible?! I mean, a quick look through deviantart, concept art forums and even, dare I say it, elfwood! provides better illustrations of spaceships, aliens and gear then is seen in professional products. Nothing personal to the artists of Mongoose Traveller but my lord was the art terrible. I'm willing to attribute it to poor production values or tight deadlines or anything else that will make Mongoose feel better but as a Sci-Fi Fan, Traveller Fan, Gamer and Artist I was practically offended. This is 2008 guys. Our desktop computers have art programs will more rendering power then a computer in the original edition of the Traveller universe could generate.
> 
> ...





Nothing will ruin a perfectly good book for me faster than bad art.  Can't get past it, cheapens the whole product.


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## The Green Adam (Sep 29, 2008)

Oni said:


> Nothing will ruin a perfectly good book for me faster than bad art. Can't get past it, cheapens the whole product.




My point exactly and Traveller especially. Why? Because in order to alter the perception that its dated it needs a look that really stands out and grabs people attention. It needs to generate the same interest and excitement it did in 1977 but appeal to a 2008-9 consumer who has watched and read science fiction with solid art, design and effects. 

In Japan, Traveller was illustrated by Katoh Naoyuki, a noted illustrator and painter who was famous for doing the covers of numerous Western SF Novels before being hired to do Traveller. Amoung his works were the covers of Starship Troopers, The Forever War and the Foundation Trilogy. You can see his work, including some of his Traveller illustrations at ‰Á“¡‚³‚ñ‚¿‚ÌŽdŽ–ê and there are addition Japanese Traveller images at TRAVELLERƒR[ƒi[”à

I collect Japanese pen & paper RPGs. I suppose I needed a way of being EVEN MORE GEEKY! 

Right now I'm feeling a little depressed about the current lack of a Sci-Fi RPG that does what I want and looks good. The Stars, My Disappointment.

AD


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## Psion (Sep 29, 2008)

I think Mongoose Traveller is a great game.

But I have to agree: the art is a disappointment.


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## Staffan (Sep 29, 2008)

Agemegos said:


> A 2-D universe is no improvement. You can visualise it on the page, but  every time you look at it or make decisions based on it it screams "I am not Space".



It does make things a lot easier though. I have attached a copy of the map of the Verge from the Star*Drive setting, with four of the stars marked. The yellow circles are around the systems Corrivale and Karnath, which are about 72 lightyears apart. The green circles are around Tendril and Argos, about 70 lightyears apart. By just looking at the map, you'd assume that Tendril and Argos are much farther apart than Corrivale and Karnath are.

That kind of thing matters if you're running, say, a trading-based campaign (something which is about as classic in Traveller as "kill things and take their stuff" is in D&D). You want to be able to realize how long it would take you to travel from one system to another to figure out if it's worth going there for the profit you can make.


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## Metus (Sep 29, 2008)

Agemegos said:


> What do you mean by "space opera"? In one sense, it is used to mean "sci-fi consisting of a thin veneer of spaceships and rayguns over stock characters, stock situations, and stock plots". In another it is used to mean "interstellar sci-fi more concerned with spaceships than planets, in which the scope is wide and the scale large (tending to 'grandiose' on both those dimensions)".




I meant the latter, although I was purposely leaving it a bit vague.  I'm interested to hear about all the space RPGs in general.


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## Jürgen Hubert (Sep 29, 2008)

The Green Adam said:


> Artist rant coming online in 3...2...1....
> 
> Why is the art work in most Sci-Fi/Space RPGs so gawdawefully horrible?! I




Good art is expensive. And few gaming companies have an art budget even _approaching_ that of WotC.

That said, if you want good art, look at Heavy Gear and Jovian Chronicles. Though they have lost their main artist now...


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## Shades of Green (Sep 29, 2008)

Korgoth said:


> In space, everyone can hear you pump the 12-gauge.



That is signature stuff! iconic!


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## Agemegos (Sep 29, 2008)

Staffan said:


> It does make things a lot easier though.



At the cost of being grotesquely unrealistic. It's like the difference between chess and a wargame: the chequerboard and the funny pieces and moving only one piece on each turn makes things a lot simpler, but the result is just not a representation of a battlefield.



> I have attached a copy of the map of the Verge from the Star*Drive setting, with four of the stars marked. The yellow circles are around the systems Corrivale and Karnath, which are about 72 lightyears apart. The green circles are around Tendril and Argos, about 70 lightyears apart. By just looking at the map, you'd assume that Tendril and Argos are much farther apart than Corrivale and Karnath are.




Indeed. But at that scope (ie. about forty stars) the problem is easily solved by a distance table.

I have a copy of this starmap, which I have laminated and use in gaming. It has about 224 stars on it, and while the distances between the stars are not apparent at a glance it is possible to discern which stars are near to a given location in a few moments. You glance at the dot that represents your current location and note the last  of its co-ordinates. Then you glance at the nearby dots and check the last of their co-ordinates. If it is very different from the number you mentally noted you dismiss the star as not all that near. The same approach works using the _Astrogator's Handbook_, which divides space within 75 light-years into 63 sectors and represents each with a map like this.

Sure, it's not as easy as judging distance on a map of something flat. But that's because it is representing something that is intrinsically more complex. You can't suppress that complexity without losing the essence of Space.


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## Korgoth (Sep 29, 2008)

Shades of Green said:


> That is signature stuff! iconic!




Enjoy!

@Agemegos:

For what it's worth, here's how I handle Jump technology in my interpretations of Traveller:

(2D) Sector maps are accurate because they're not star maps, they're maps of Jump Space. J-Space is a separate space (or quasi-space) that does not map precisely (as far as man can tell) onto real space.

The Jump Drive propels you into Jump Space and maintains you there. When there, you aim yourself at one of the large disturbances that constitutes a stellar mass. As you draw near the stellar mass, you precipitate out of jump space and into real space (thus mass hampers jump so you need more powerful jump engines for a larger ship). If you don't reach a precipitating mass before lose jump field integrity, you're swallowed up or sometimes appear at a random point in real space (after a variable amount of time). Another reason for the high casualties in the Scout service.

Anyway, Jump space works on its own physics and the relative positions of the jumpable systems can be accurately represented in 2D. A jump map is not a real star map, however, and does not have constellations, familiar locations, etc. Maybe Terrans have never visited Alpha Centauri because there has never been a jump route found to it. Maybe we have visited Eta Carinae because, due to the quirks of J-Space, it is only a few jumps away (and you can hardly miss it!). Etc.


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## Hal Maclean (Sep 29, 2008)

Darrin Drader said:


> Reign of Discordia, of course.
> 
> Here it is in PDF: RPGNow.com - Reality Deviant Publications - Reign of Discordia
> 
> The print version is available in both color and B&W and can be accessed here: 's Storefront - Lulu.com




I'll echo that. There's some great ideas in RoD that really harken back to the glory days of space opera.


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## Storm Raven (Sep 29, 2008)

Agemegos said:


> I have a copy of this starmap, which I have laminated and use in gaming. It has about 224 stars on it, and while the distances between the stars are not apparent at a glance it is possible to discern which stars are near to a given location in a few moments. You glance at the dot that represents your current location and note the last  of its co-ordinates. Then you glance at the nearby dots and check the last of their co-ordinates. If it is very different from the number you mentally noted you dismiss the star as not all that near. The same approach works using the _Astrogator's Handbook_, which divides space within 75 light-years into 63 sectors and represents each with a map like this.
> 
> Sure, it's not as easy as judging distance on a map of something flat. But that's because it is representing something that is intrinsically more complex. You can't suppress that complexity without losing the essence of Space.




When I first started playing Traveller years ago (using the little black books complete with the old map of the Spinward Marches) I was worried about the 2D nature of the map too. I made a system for representing 3D space pretty much like the one in the starmap you provide.

And I found it just didn't add much to game play. The 2D map isn't perfectly realistic, but it does what is needed for the game to work, and does it reasonably well. Adding the third dimension to the map is a lot of extra work, and it doesn't represent as well (people are good at judging distances by eye, but not so much by adding a mathematical calculation to the mix) and it doesn't add a whole lot to actual play, which is primarily concerned with what heppens _in_ a system, and not so much with different systems (other than just jumping from one to the other).


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## Agemegos (Sep 29, 2008)

Storm Raven said:


> When I first started playing Traveller years ago (using the little black books complete with the old map of the Spinward Marches) I was worried about the 2D nature of the map too. I made a system for representing 3D space pretty much like the one in the starmap you provide.
> 
> And I found it just didn't add much to game play. The 2D map isn't perfectly realistic, but it does what is needed for the game to work




By the same token a chessboard does what is needed for the game to work, and as an abstract game chess is a lot more successful than realistic wargames. Realistic terrain is fiddly to represent, and getting all the units in each army to move and fight at once, making the outcomes of fights depend on the strength of the units, and all that stuff is complicated. Hundreds of millions of chess players find that it doesn't add much to game-play. But wargamers find that chess is so unrealistic that it just doesn't represent a battle.

Your first _Traveller_ game was set in the Spinward Marches, which is a fictional place. There can be no sense in the Spinward Marches that the astrography is just _wrong_. The first _Traveller_ game I played in was set in Larry Niven's _Known Space_, which set in familiar space very near to Sol. Most of the action twenty years of play in my homebrew space setting has set in systems within 125 light-years of Sol, in imagined versions of real places. Those places aren't in a two-dimensional universe: they just aren't. On a clear night you can see Tau Ceti, Delta Pavonis, Zeta Tucanae, Lambda Aurigae, and you can point out the locations of CD -40° 898, BD -0° 2944, and the rest. (Well, not all on the same night, but you get the point.) You can _see_ that they are set in a three-dimensional space.

_Traveller_'s Solomani Rim is supposedly set in local space near Sol. But nearly all the familiar stars are missing, and Space is supposed to be flat, which I can see every night is just not true. You might as well ask me to play in a WWII RPG campaign in which the battles are fought on 8-by-8 square grids by knights and bishops and flying castles. Sure the gameplay is easier, but the suspension of disbelief is much, much harder.


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## Agemegos (Sep 29, 2008)

Metus said:


> I meant the latter, although I was purposely leaving it a bit vague.  I'm interested to hear about all the space RPGs in general.




I would find it interesting and helpful to know what space opera you had lately read and enjoyed.


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## Metus (Sep 30, 2008)

Agemegos said:


> I would find it interesting and helpful to know what space opera you had lately read and enjoyed.




Well, it's not a space opera, actually, although it meets some of the criteria.  I was reading Tuf Voyaging by George R.R. Martin.  I really enjoyed it.

As an aside, I bought Mongoose Traveller and Burning Empires; I'm liking what I'm seeing of them thus far.  The mechanics for Burning Empires seems really crazy, but possibly really cool as well.


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## Shadowsmith (Sep 30, 2008)

My favorite space game is Space 1889. Victorian era ether flyers reach Mars and Venus. Interplanetary role-playing in a more civilized time.


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## Agemegos (Sep 30, 2008)

Metus said:


> Well, it's not a space opera, actually, although it meets some of the criteria.  I was reading Tuf Voyaging by George R.R. Martin.  I really enjoyed it.




Try H. Beam Piper's _Federation_, I think you'll like it.


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## RFisher (Sep 30, 2008)

The Green Adam said:


> I collect Japanese pen & paper RPGs. I suppose I needed a way of being EVEN MORE GEEKY!




That’s something I’ve considered taking up. Any advice for someone just getting started?


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## Punnuendo (Sep 30, 2008)

Metus said:


> As an aside, I bought Mongoose Traveller and Burning Empires; I'm liking what I'm seeing of them thus far.  The mechanics for Burning Empires seems really crazy, but possibly really cool as well.





Yeah, it's a slight disconnect from more traditional RPGs but I think it is a shining example of how sometimes mechanics do matter for the story you are telling.


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## Psion (Sep 30, 2008)

Kid Cthulhu said:


> Yeah, it's a slight disconnect from more traditional RPGs but I think it is a shining example of how sometimes mechanics do matter for the story you are telling.




Have you actually played it?

I lurve big rulesets, and I own this... but some of the subsystems seem a bit daunting to me. I couldn't see dragging my group into it.


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## Punnuendo (Sep 30, 2008)

Psion said:


> Have you actually played it?
> 
> I lurve big rulesets, and I own this... but some of the subsystems seem a bit daunting to me. I couldn't see dragging my group into it.





A little. With a group of DnD players and with a group of friends who either aren't gamers, or at least not RPers. The second group got the game a lot more. But yeah, it is a bit daunting sometimes.


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## Plane Sailing (Sep 30, 2008)

Korgoth said:


> Classic Traveller is still in print. And, going against the grain here... the original 3 books (called the "3 LBBs" or 3 Little Black Books) are nice because they predate all of this stuff about the Imperium and the enormous body of canonical setting material that has come about.
> 
> In the original 3 books of Traveller (also published as The Traveller Book in a single volume, or Starter Traveller as a boxed set) posit a sci-fi setting where laser weapons require backpack power sources, where the largest possible ship is 5000 displacement tons and the setting is whatever you want it to be.




That is the traveller that I started with - I was quite surprised when they brought out all that 'Imperium' stuff, because I'd already got my little cluster of planets and campaign world statted out by the time things like the uninspiring 'spinward marches' appeared.

I was always a little frustrated with traveller in the early days, because I wanted to play 'star wars' as a sci-fi game, and traveller just didn't match that... but it was the only sci-fi game around at the time!


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## Plane Sailing (Sep 30, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> 3D Space charts might be realistic, but I am afraid conveying them in text form is very difficult, and ultimately leads to no real visualization of the world.




My personal preference is to consider that the planets exist in 3d space, but the maps are a convenient 2D representation. This is in the same way that many (most?) underground system maps are representational rather than accurate reflections of the routes and stations relationships to one another (see the iconic London Underground map for example).

After all, it has always been natural to make useful representations of real geography in order to facilitate navigation - my own username reflects the importance of shipping navigation charts which could be used flat rather than trying to calculate distances based on the portion of a sphere which your ship was going to sail over. Globes are useful, but most of the time we use flat maps. Why wouldn't people in the future do something similar.


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## RFisher (Oct 1, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:


> I was always a little frustrated with traveller in the early days, because I wanted to play 'star wars' as a sci-fi game, and traveller just didn't match that... but it was the only sci-fi game around at the time!




I seem to recall the story that the GDW guys went to see Star Wars just about the time classic _Traveller_ was about to go to print. Who knows how things might have gone if _Star Wars_ had been a little earlier or _Traveller_ a little later?


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## The Green Adam (Oct 2, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:


> I was always a little frustrated with traveller in the early days, because I wanted to play 'star wars' as a sci-fi game, and traveller just didn't match that... but it was the only sci-fi game around at the time!




I remember the first time I ever played Traveller I hated it. I grew up on Sci-Fi, from Star Trek reruns and Legion of Superheroes comics to second hand novels by E.E. "Doc" Smith, Niven and a host of others. When a friend brought "a space version of D&D" to camp I was beside myself with excitement.

"I want to be an alien!" Sorry, there are no aliens. "How much for a laser gun?" They're very expensive. Most guns have bullets. "Do we at least go faster-then-light??" Yes. The next planet is two weeks away. "I see...so let's go back to D&D shall we?"

It wasn't until much, much later when I read the rules and ran it myself that I really grew to love it. 

AD


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## Ao the Overkitty (Oct 2, 2008)

I am very happy with my two sci-fi purchases at Gencon this year.

*Hellas: Worlds of Sun and Stone*http://www.hellasrpg.com - GREEKS....IN...SPACE!!!!!!!   Okay, they totally suckered the Classics major in me with that purchase, but it is just plain sweet.  Haven't run it yet (not my group's thing), but I am enamoured.

I also managed to get a copy of Spaceship Zero for $3 on Sunday.  I had a blast the one time I've gotten to play it.  Well, okay, it was run by Piratecat.  I know, that man could make Paint: The Drying a fun game, but this game holds up even if he isn't running it.


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## John Q. Mayhem (Oct 2, 2008)

Hmmm....verrrrry interesting! I'm studying Thucydides in college now, and I'm setting one of my space campaigns up for a Peloponnesian War-style scenario...that looks like fun!


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## mmadsen (Oct 3, 2008)

The Green Adam said:


> I remember the first time I ever played Traveller I hated it. I grew up on Sci-Fi, from Star Trek reruns and Legion of Superheroes comics to second hand novels by E.E. "Doc" Smith, Niven and a host of others. When a friend brought "a space version of D&D" to camp I was beside myself with excitement.
> 
> "I want to be an alien!" Sorry, there are no aliens. "How much for a laser gun?" They're very expensive. Most guns have bullets. "Do we at least go faster-then-light??" Yes. The next planet is two weeks away. "I see...so let's go back to D&D shall we?"



As a kid, I only heard about Traveller -- no one I knew played it -- but your story strikes me as exactly how I would have reacted to a sci-fi game with no phasers, no blasters, no light sabers, no aliens, no jedi, etc.  I suspect we would have just grafted them on and played our own version of Star Wars.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Oct 6, 2008)

I don't know...I always liked the "retro-future" of Traveller- it reminded me of some of the early sci-fi movies and stories I devoured as a child.

Then again, my dad was a sci-fi enthusiast, so I had access to the classic sci-fi of the 40's and 50's for many years before Star Wars ever graced the screen.

Heck, I've been reading Ben Bova's "Planetary" and "Asteroid Wars" series- both set in the near future as humanity is first exploring the solar system in person- and wouldn't mind playing a game set shortly thereafter using those same old "retro-future" rules of Traveller.

After all, if you watch "Future Weapons," some of the things imagined in those old stories are just now coming to light, like man-portable laser weapons with big battery packs, for instance.


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## The Green Adam (Oct 6, 2008)

I can totally see that as a viable and interesting setting but Traveller came out at a time when Star Wars was very much on the mind of most gaming aged customers. Plus, it said right on the cover, "Science Adventure in the Far Future". In 1977 the 'Far Future' didn't have bullets and slow FTL drives. I grew up on Ringworld, The Forever War, The Stars My Destination, Lensman, Retief and many other SF books just as much as TV shows, comics and movies and at first glance Traveller seemed dull and flat by comparison.

The real kicker is that over the years, and notably on this very board/forum, it has been mentioned that SF games have always had more difficulty then Fantasy in being accepted because we share a past, medieval period while everyone's view of the future is different. That is, we can all imagine and get behind a historical period but we differ on what the future holds.

Thing is, D&D now has little or nothing to do with the realities of a Western European medieval world and every time SF is brought up we all seem to be looking for roughly the same thing. There is a desire for a generic SF game with real art and production valves that does the basics of space opera like ray guns, starships, robots, cybernetics and aliens and has modular add ons for stuff like cyberpunk or near future. If I had the funds and could create any game, that is the one I would market.

AD


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## Nikosandros (Oct 6, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:


> My personal preference is to consider that the planets exist in 3d space, but the maps are a convenient 2D representation. This is in the same way that many (most?) underground system maps are representational rather than accurate reflections of the routes and stations relationships to one another (see the iconic London Underground map for example).



Actually, normally the planets will all be basically on the same plane, so that a 2d representation is fine... the real problem is that the planets move around in their orbits, so that a static map isn't really useful.

Another issue is that spaceships certainly won't confine themselves on plane, especially when they are fighting with each other.


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## RFisher (Oct 7, 2008)

The Green Adam said:


> I can totally see that as a viable and interesting setting but Traveller came out at a time when Star Wars was very much on the mind of most gaming aged customers. Plus, it said right on the cover, "Science Adventure in the Far Future". In 1977 the 'Far Future' didn't have bullets and slow FTL drives. I grew up on Ringworld, The Forever War, The Stars My Destination, Lensman, Retief and many other SF books just as much as TV shows, comics and movies and at first glance Traveller seemed dull and flat by comparison.




It’s funny. Back then, I was heavily into science. The sci-fi I did enjoy was the stuff that was more grounded in science. So, a future with bullets and slow FTL was more attractive to me.

Sure, I liked Star Wars, but it was always fantasy in drag to me. No need for a sci-fi RPG if I want to play something like Star Wars. (OK, not _just_ fantasy in drag. Also WWII and Kurosawa and...)

But then, I guess I knew I was weird in that respect even then.

On the other hand, there were some pretty gonzo _Traveller_ campaigns I’ve read about. Change the time for jumps to be based on distance and whatever rate you choose. Call the blades “lightsabers”. Call the slugthrowers “blasters”. And you’re well on your way.


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## malladin (Oct 7, 2008)

I can't believe not one mention of Trinity. Intelligent space opera in a unique world. Suffers from the WW metaplot syndrome and needs a couple of supplements to cover the deep space stuff, but excellent game. I'm in the Fading Suns is great group. Hear a lot of good things about MongTrav.


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## Aus_Snow (Oct 7, 2008)

There are some really neat settings out there, or at least ones I might suggest mining for fluff 'n stuff. But I think they've been mentioned in this thread already, so I won't.

But I still haven't honestly found a system that feels quite right for sci-fi that isn't also gonzo, space opera, or otherwise wahoo and wacky. Violins please. 

It's pretty weird, considering that I have found - or on occasion mutilated and cobbled together - systems for _everything else_.


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## The Green Adam (Oct 7, 2008)

We often played the much lamented Space Opera RPG from Fantasy Games Unlimited Space Opera (game - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Don't ask me how we played it as figuring out the rules are akin to slamming ones head repeatedly against something of greater density with great rigor. At the same time I remember some very cool characters and a good number of roaring tales from those days.

Traveller remains a favorite of course and artwork not withstanding Mongoose's version is as true to the original as I've seen in quite a while.

AD


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## mmadsen (Oct 11, 2008)

RFisher said:


> Sure, I liked Star Wars, but it was always fantasy in drag to me. No need for a sci-fi RPG if I want to play something like Star Wars. (OK, not _just_ fantasy in drag. Also WWII and Kurosawa and...)



We naturally wanted to integrate _Star Wars_ into our D&D game, but psionics and hit points never quite worked to model the Force and light-saber duels.


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## Achan hiArusa (Oct 12, 2008)

Jürgen Hubert said:


> I strongly recommend Fading Suns for a science fantasy/space opera setting, and Transhuman Space for a hard SF one.




I've thought about combining those two to make a Butlerian Jyhad type campaign.  As man hits the information singularity and begins his expansion into the universe a group of powerful psychics begin a crusade to reestablish the purity and primacy of _Homo sapiens sapiens_ under the banner of a new religion.


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## Psion (Oct 12, 2008)

Ao the Overkitty said:


> I also managed to get a copy of Spaceship Zero for $3 on Sunday.  I had a blast the one time I've gotten to play it.  Well, okay, it was run by Piratecat.  I know, that man could make Paint: The Drying a fun game, but this game holds up even if he isn't running it.




I bought a copy of that way back when it was new. And frankly, I'm really underwhelmed with both the rules and the backstory.


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## S'mon (Oct 12, 2008)

StarSiege: Event Horizon has just reached the UK and I've ordered my copy tonight. Hopefully it'll be the fast-playing generic sf game I've been wanting for years.


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## Brutorz Bill (Oct 14, 2008)

Urizen said:


> RDP is actually going to be doing a Conversion of Darrin Drader's Reign of Discordia for the Traveller system.
> 
> We'll still be doing True20 material for the setting, but I'm really liking Traveller and I think Reign will work very well with it.





  Hey Urizen,
 When is this do out??  I really like Reign of Discordia but Traveller and I go waaay back!!!! Any info would be appreciate.
Thanks,
 Bill


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