# Star Wars: Was the “other Skywalker” Yoda spoke of really Leia?



## Hriston (Dec 23, 2019)

Obi-Wan clearly thought so, but was he right?

Leia’s strength in the Force never really plays the part in the story that would be suggested by all that foreshadowing. 

Could Yoda have been talking about Ben Solo, Obi-Wan having guessed partly right in that it was Leia’s legacy?

Was he talking about Anakin, sharing Luke’s hope that there was still some good in his father?

Was he talking about Rey?

I’ve been thinking about loose threads left by Episodes I - VI, and this seems like a big one. 

With all the gravity given Yoda’s revelation in Episodes V and VI, it seems like the sequel trilogy should have been mostly concerned with Leia and/or her legacy. Was it?


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## Legatus Legionis (Dec 23, 2019)

.


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## Umbran (Dec 23, 2019)

Hriston said:


> Obi-Wan clearly thought so, but was he right?




Remember the actual quote:

_Obi-Wan_: "That boy is our last hope."
_Yoda_: "No...there is another..." 

There are very few words there, so you can probably interpret them to mean... anything you want.


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## MarkB (Dec 23, 2019)

The point was that Luke wasn't their last hope - there was someone else who could take his place if he failed.

But he didn't fail, so Leia didn't need to take his place, and could follow her own destiny instead.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Dec 23, 2019)

It wasn't Leia when it was said in 1980; it became that later.

So who knows? The words aren't explicit about a Skywalker, just another hope.

Now, Yoda when he dies in RotJ is the one who says "There is ... another ... Sky ... walk ... er. _croak_"


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## Morrus (Dec 23, 2019)

Yes, it was Leia. As Vader says... "Sister! So you have a twin sister! .... If you will not turn to the dark side, perhaps she will!"


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## Retreater (Dec 23, 2019)

Umbran said:


> Remember the actual quote:
> 
> _Obi-Wan_: "That boy is our last hope."
> _Yoda_: "No...there is another..."
> ...




But the quote from "Return of the Jedi" on Yoda's deathbed was:
Yoda: "Pass on what you have learned. There is another … Sky … walk … er."

Then the immediate next scene is Obi-Wan telling Luke about his twin sister, Leia. Yoda's dialogue was to set up Leia as Luke's sister, "the other Skywalker." 

So, yes, it's pretty clear to me that "the other Skywalker" is Leia.


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## Umbran (Dec 23, 2019)

Retreater said:


> But the quote from "Return of the Jedi" on Yoda's deathbed was:
> Yoda: "Pass on what you have learned. There is another … Sky … walk … er."




Shows how goo memory can be.  Of course, you are correct.

And in that context, it isn't "There _will be_ another."  Definitely an _is_.  Talking about the present, not the future, so he could not have been referring to people not yet born.


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## MarkB (Dec 23, 2019)

I have always been curious as to why, in both Legends and new canon, they chose _not_ to develop Leia's connection with the Force to any great degree, instead choosing to make her primarily a stateswoman.


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## Kaodi (Dec 24, 2019)

Leia took after Padme, Luke took after Anakin, particularly later in life. The Galaxy needed a stateswoman, and even with her doing the job things could not really be held together.


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## Hriston (Dec 24, 2019)

Legatus_Legionis said:


> At the time Yoda said that, Leia was the only other "skywalker" out there.
> 
> And since Leia was not yet married to Han Solo, and was not expecting any children, the idea Yoda was talking about a future force-sensitive user....
> 
> ...



Well, except for Anakin Skywalker, who was only dead “from a certain point of view.”

Yoda could see into the future through the Force, using Force vision, so I don’t think future Skywalkers are entirely out. 

I think we all know by now <SPOILER!> what last name/title? Rey ended up taking. 

And why not Baby Yoda? Maybe he becomes a “Skywalker” too.


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## Hriston (Dec 24, 2019)

Umbran said:


> Remember the actual quote:
> 
> _Obi-Wan_: "That boy is our last hope."
> _Yoda_: "No...there is another..."
> ...



I want to interpret them to mean Leia because I think that’s clearly the intent, but it always felt cheap to me that it was always just a plot device for Luke, and thereby Vader, to discover he had a sister, so Vader could taunt him, almost turn him to the dark side, and be thrashed nearly to death. I mean, the chain of events is fine, but it feels contrived if Leia never actually ends up developing her power. So my question is really about whether this can be reconciled with the new trilogy or a similar story, because IMO Disney really dropped the ball in not wrapping up a major loose thread that was left by the OT, unless I’m missing something.  (I still haven’t seen the new movie and probably won’t for a while.)


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## Hriston (Dec 24, 2019)

MarkB said:


> The point was that Luke wasn't their last hope - there was someone else who could take his place if he failed.
> 
> But he didn't fail, so Leia didn't need to take his place, and could follow her own destiny instead.



Leia as little more than a back up plan is very unsatisfying to me. In the conversation Luke has with her about developing her power, he says, “In time, you will learn to use your power as I have,” but she never really does, not for any real purpose. It’s like Luke was completely full of it and maybe trying to make himself (or the audience) feel better for handing himself over to Vader by thinking that Yoda could just train up another Jedi. I mean, was that the whole point?


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## Hriston (Dec 24, 2019)

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> It wasn't Leia when it was said in 1980; it became that later.
> 
> So who knows? The words aren't explicit about a Skywalker, just another hope.
> 
> Now, Yoda when he dies in RotJ is the one who says "There is ... another ... Sky ... walk ... er. _croak_"



Right. Now, my question supposes the full context of Episodes V and VI, which includes not only what Yoda said as Luke ran off to Bespin, but also what he said on his deathbed (which I would’ve thought was obvious from the thread title). I’m assuming that Yoda is presented as somewhat rational and that the audience is expected to assume he’s speaking about the same person in both instances. But he never says, “Leia”. That bit of interpretation comes from Ben “from-a-certain-point-of-view” Kenobi, so I figured there was some room to finagle.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Dec 24, 2019)

Hriston said:


> Right. Now, my question supposes the full context of Episodes V and VI, which includes not only what Yoda said as Luke ran off to Bespin, but also what he said on his deathbed (which I would’ve thought was obvious from the thread title). I’m assuming that Yoda is presented as somewhat rational and that the audience is expected to assume he’s speaking about the same person in both instances. But he never says, “Leia”. That bit of interpretation comes from Ben “from-a-certain-point-of-view” Kenobi, so I figured there was some room to finagle.




Well, in the context of RotJ, yes, it's obviously Leia. But in the context of ESB, knowing the OT was not written as a single planned trilogy but was improvised episode to episode, it could have meant anything ... and was only resolved to Leia when RotJ was final.

It works, but hey -- Yoda could have been talking about Ahsoka, or Ezra, or broom boy for all we know.


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## Hriston (Dec 24, 2019)

Morrus said:


> Yes, it was Leia. As Vader says... "Sister! So you have a twin sister! .... If you will not turn to the dark side, perhaps she will!"



I don’t know how that’s supposed to tell us definitively what Yoda meant. It was Obi-Wan that confirmed Luke’s suspicions, but this was the same guy that seems to have forgotten all about Leia when he said Luke was “our last hope”, even though he was present at the twins’ birth. Yoda wasn’t there to confirm that’s what he meant during Luke and Ben’s conversation, being dead and all. The strongest evidence we as an audience have for Leia being the “other Skywalker” are Luke’s feelings, which is compelling, but not entirely conclusive.


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## Hriston (Dec 24, 2019)

MarkB said:


> I have always been curious as to why, in both Legends and new canon, they chose _not_ to develop Leia's connection with the Force to any great degree, instead choosing to make her primarily a stateswoman.



It’s like the movies held out this big plot-hook and did absolutely nothing with it. That was forgivable when the revelation was coming at the end of Episode VI, but there’ve now been three more movies and nothing ever came of Luke’s seemingly prescient statement that Leia would learn to use the Force as he had. For me, this is a let down.


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## MarkB (Dec 24, 2019)

Hriston said:


> Leia as little more than a back up plan is very unsatisfying to me. In the conversation Luke has with her about developing her power, he says, “In time, you will learn to use your power as I have,” but she never really does, not for any real purpose.



Because she chose not to. She had other things to do with her life.



> It’s like Luke was completely full of it and maybe trying to make himself (or the audience) feel better for handing himself over to Vader by thinking that Yoda could just train up another Jedi. I mean, was that the whole point?



Certainly not. For one thing, Yoda was dead by then, and Force Ghost or not, I doubt Luke had any illusions that he was going to be training Leia from beyond the grave.

No, Luke simply meant that the strength and special capabilities Leia saw in him were also in her, and that he was confident that the Rebels wouldn't need his help in order to complete their mission, because they'd still have Leia with them. He's not treating her as a backup in that scene, he's saying that he himself is the redundant one in that scenario - they can complete the Shield Generator mission without him, so it's okay that he has to leave in order to confront and redeem Vader.


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## Morrus (Dec 24, 2019)

MarkB said:


> I have always been curious as to why, in both Legends and new canon, they chose _not_ to develop Leia's connection with the Force to any great degree, instead choosing to make her primarily a stateswoman.



They do. She flies thorough space in TLJ, and she does stuff in TRoS. It's just that she's more focused on being a general. Spoiler box for TRoS, where her Jedi training is made very clear: 


Spoiler




she's trained as a Jedi by Luke
has her own lightsaber
beats Luke in a lightsaber fight
she trains Rey
she projects her voice across the galaxy to Kylo
she disappears when she dies and becomes a force ghost


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## Morrus (Dec 24, 2019)

Hriston said:


> but there’ve now been three more movies and nothing ever came of Luke’s seemingly prescient statement that Leia would learn to use the Force as he had. For me, this is a let down.




But...


Hriston said:


> (I still haven’t seen the new movie and probably won’t for a while.)




Maybe watch the movie before telling us all what doesn't happen in it?


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## Hriston (Dec 24, 2019)

Kaodi said:


> Leia took after Padme, Luke took after Anakin, particularly later in life. The Galaxy needed a stateswoman, and even with her doing the job things could not really be held together.



Then why have Yoda call her “another” last hope (of defeating Vader?)? 

Why have Luke tell her she’ll learn to use her power as he did. 

Why have Vader say she’ll turn to the dark side if Luke won’t?

Padme was never expected to do anything like that, but those expectations were set up for Leia.


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## Morrus (Dec 24, 2019)

Hriston said:


> Why have Luke tell her she’ll learn to use her power as he did.




Because she does. In the movie you haven't watched yet.


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## Hriston (Dec 24, 2019)

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> Well, in the context of RotJ, yes, it's obviously Leia. But in the context of ESB, knowing the OT was not written as a single planned trilogy but was improvised episode to episode, it could have meant anything ... and was only resolved to Leia when RotJ was final.
> 
> It works, but hey -- Yoda could have been talking about Ahsoka, or Ezra, or broom boy for all we know.



I think we’re pretty much on the same page. I agree that the intent of Episodes V and VI taken together seems to have been that Leia was to be understood to be the other Skywalker spoken about. However, I also think this was left as a loose plot thread at the end of Episode VI to be taken up in later installments. From what I saw in Episodes VII and VIII, this wasn’t done in a meaningful way. So I’m wondering if the wiggle room about who Yoda was actually talking about could be invoked to bring this all to a more satisfying conclusion, or if I should just accept that this wasn’t something the makers of the ST cared about and pretend it never happened.


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## Maxperson (Dec 24, 2019)

Hriston said:


> I want to interpret them to mean Leia because I think that’s clearly the intent, but it always felt cheap to me that it was always just a plot device for Luke, and thereby Vader, to discover he had a sister, so Vader could taunt him, almost turn him to the dark side, and be thrashed nearly to death. I mean, the chain of events is fine, but it feels contrived if Leia never actually ends up developing her power. So my question is really about whether this can be reconciled with the new trilogy or a similar story, because IMO Disney really dropped the ball in not wrapping up a major loose thread that was left by the OT, unless I’m missing something.  (I still haven’t seen the new movie and probably won’t for a while.)



She did develop her power.  She was able to survive a vacuum for a while and force push herself back into the ship.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 24, 2019)

Leia has powers but in canon and legends she didn't train as much as say Luke as she spent more time in politics. 

 She's the better leader, Luke's the better warrior. Her potential is the same as Luke's. She uses force powers in both but it takes her longer iirc she becomes Jedi Master in both.


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## doctorbadwolf (Dec 24, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> She did develop her power.  She was able to survive a vacuum for a while and force push herself back into the ship.



Thank you. 

For the thousandth time, she didn’t fly. It’s a real simple use of what the RPGs call Move Object.


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## Morrus (Dec 24, 2019)

doctorbadwolf said:


> For the thousandth time, she didn’t fly. It’s a real simple use of what the RPGs call Move Object.




The thousandth time? Blimey! 

I‘d counter that with birds don’t fly. It’s a real simple use of what the natures call Flap Wings. I don’t really see what the propulsion method has to do with it.

I mean, does the word fly really matter so much in this conversation that it needs refuting a thousand times?


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## Maxperson (Dec 25, 2019)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Thank you.
> 
> For the thousandth time, she didn’t fly. It’s a real simple use of what the RPGs call Move Object.



Tomato, tomahto.


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## Legatus Legionis (Dec 25, 2019)

.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 25, 2019)

Leia using the force wasn't a problem. Her flying in space scene was. Mary Poppins in space and it looked bad/goofy.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Dec 25, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Leia using the force wasn't a problem. Her flying in space scene was. Mary Poppins in space and it looked bad/goofy.




That wasn't flying ... it was falling without style!


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## Zardnaar (Dec 25, 2019)

Legatus_Legionis said:


> In Legends it was explained that after all that happened between the Jedi and the Sith, it was best to keep Leia's force abilities a secret.
> 
> After all the years of propaganda against the Jedi made by the Empire, having a Jedi taking such a prominent role in the new Republic's government was not something most people would accept.




 It was also quiet in the new canon. She got outted as Vader's daughter as a political hit job in the new one. 

 The Sith being public knowledge wasn't really known about but a line in the movie references it. 

 Apparently be Palpatine broadcast the Sith thing in Minecraft.

 They're putting a lot off stuff outside the movies that should probably be in them like Rey downloading Kylos force training. 

 Makes sense in the new canon, not so much onscreen.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 25, 2019)

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> That wasn't flying ... it was falling without style!




 Heh I just don't think it was a great visual. 

 I expected her to have powers, some force powers are silly though like Palpatine force lightning the ships. A bit over the top IMHO.


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## doctorbadwolf (Dec 25, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> Tomato, tomahto.



It matters. 


Zardnaar said:


> Leia using the force wasn't a problem. Her flying in space scene was. Mary Poppins in space and it looked bad/goofy.



It looked great, IMO, and was very obviously not flying.


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## doctorbadwolf (Dec 25, 2019)

Morrus said:


> The thousandth time? Blimey!
> 
> I‘d counter that with birds don’t fly. It’s a real simple use of what the natures call Flap Wings. I don’t really see what the propulsion method has to do with it.
> 
> I mean, does the word fly really matter so much in this conversation that it needs refuting a thousand times?



Yes. It isn’t flight. She couldn’t do it in planetary gravity.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Dec 25, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Heh I just don't think it was a great visual.
> 
> I expected her to have powers, some force powers are silly though like Palpatine force lightning the ships. A bit over the top IMHO.




Given her personality I would have expected more mental stuff. Empathize, affect emotions, help her be a more persuasive leader, that sort of thing.

I'm disappointed that the Force has gone from something very subtle in the original movie to something completely over the top. As a result, at this point I prefer the Star Wars stories that don't have Force users or Jedi in them.

I gagged when I saw the Mary Poppins bit in the theater ... but then the movie had been going downhill for me since opening with a cell phone gag. So much potential ...


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## Zardnaar (Dec 25, 2019)

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> Given her personality I would have expected more mental stuff. Empathize, affect emotions, help her be a more persuasive leader, that sort of thing.
> 
> I'm disappointed that the Force has gone from something very subtle in the original movie to something completely over the top. As a result, at this point I prefer the Star Wars stories that don't have Force users or Jedi in them.
> 
> I gagged when I saw the Mary Poppins bit in the theater ... but then the movie had been going downhill for me since opening with a cell phone gag. So much potential ...




 Cell phone gag plus a your momma joke. 

 Humor has a place in Star Wars but they over do it in the new trilogy.

 Same with fan service. They went with more is better, didn't work out IMHO.


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## ccs (Dec 25, 2019)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Thank you.
> 
> For the thousandth time, she didn’t fly. It’s a real simple use of what the RPGs call Move Object.




Sure, to someone who plays these games.

To the vast majority of the audience watching it though?  If it looks like flying, _then it's flying_.


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## doctorbadwolf (Dec 25, 2019)

ccs said:


> Sure, to someone who plays these games.
> 
> To the vast majority of the audience watching it though?  If it looks like flying, _then it's flying_.



It looks like Luke pulling the lightsaber to his hand, or Vader throwing industrial components at Luke in the Bespin fight. It’s very clearly basic telekinesis.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 25, 2019)

doctorbadwolf said:


> It looks like Luke pulling the lightsaber to his hand, or Vader throwing industrial components at Luke in the Bespin fight. It’s very clearly basic telekinesis.




Not that clear, it does look like flying. Plus she's also surviving in space.

Neither one is to far out of left field for Jedi powers, I thought the CGI looked bad. OT trilogy the Jedi were better than average could do impossible things.

ST they've kinda turned them into superheroes. If you prefer superheroes that's fine but it's very key difference IMHO.


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## Galandris (Dec 25, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> It was also quiet in the new canon. She got outted as Vader's daughter as a political hit job in the new one.




That's actually a smart move on part of their opponents.



> The Sith being public knowledge wasn't really known about but a line in the movie references it.
> Apparently be Palpatine broadcast the Sith thing in Minecraft.




After discovering this message (on this forum) I listened to the broadcast. Frankly, your average galactic citizen who can't really understand the reference.

He might recognize the Emperor's voice (even if we don't know if he was fond of public appearances, news anchor would certainly comment the broadcast and ask an expert who would identify him, reminding the younger audiences about that Emperor 25 years ago). I am not joking, if suddenly your TV broadcasted the voice of Jimmy Carter, would you identify him immediately (provided you're a US resident... chances are most citizen of the Galactic Empire were more concerned with local rulership and the broadcast would be as obscure as an American hearing the voice of Javier Perez de Cuellar. Not sure if it would sound immediately recognizable...

Anyway, so someone identified as the late Emperor by reliable sources says to the universe:



			
				Late Sheev Palpatine former Emperor of the Galaxy former Senator of Naboo said:
			
		

> At last the work of generations is complete. The great error is corrected. The day of victory is at hand. The day of revenge. The day of the Sith.




Jedis would know about the Sith being back, but they'd know even without Palpatine mentioning it, since the Jedi knew that he's a Sith Lord. Most galactic citizen... they'd fear the revenge of their former Emperor, hope to get a good place in the new administration of the galaxy if they are members of the First Order, learn that some error has been corrected (maybe they fired their former safety engineer and started to build waist-high railings around the bottomless pits featured in their Supreme Leaders' thronerooms?) and that the day of revenge will come. Then, a strange phrase about the day of the scythe, certainly alluding that the revenge would be deadly. And that the Emperor has a strange way of pronouncing scythe. He must be saying tomahto as well. But I am not sure the sybillline broadcast would make the Sith "public knowledge". The Jedi removed knowledge of them for thousands of years and Palpatine stuck to the rule of two during his time as an Emperor... even some of the OT generals didn't think force power existed (despite having certainly lived and been a junior officer during the last day of the republic...)


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## Zardnaar (Dec 25, 2019)

Galandris said:


> That's actually a smart move on part of their opponents.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




An equivalent would be someone using the voice of Reagan/Thatcher referencing the Knights Templar or organization of the Byzantine empire.

Even the Jedi didn't know he was Sith apart from Obi Wan and Yoda.
Other Jedi survivors wouldn't know but would likely suspect or work it out I suppose.

It would depend on how many got told once Anakin informed the council.

What happened on DSII wasn't public knowledge in legends and in New canon the Skywalker lineage wasn't public either until a few years before TFA. It's why Leia's the resistance leader not a member of the NR.


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## Maxperson (Dec 25, 2019)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Yes. It isn’t flight. She couldn’t do it in planetary gravity.



She doesn't have to.  It's okay to only be able to fly under limited circumstances.


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## doctorbadwolf (Dec 25, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Not that clear, it does look like flying. Plus she's also surviving in space.
> 
> Neither one is to far out of left field for Jedi powers, I thought the CGI looked bad. OT trilogy the Jedi were better than average could do impossible things.
> 
> ST they've kinda turned them into superheroes. If you prefer superheroes that's fine but it's very key difference IMHO.



The prequels and CLone Wars cartoon have higher power level. The OT Luke jumps like 30 feet on bespin and Yoda lifts a multi-ton spaceship out of a swamp.


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## doctorbadwolf (Dec 25, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> She doesn't have to.  It's okay to only be able to fly under limited circumstances.





Pushing off something to float toward another thing in space isn’t flight, nor is pulling yourself toward your goal and floating the rest of the way.


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## Maxperson (Dec 25, 2019)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Pushing off something to float toward another thing in space isn’t flight, nor is pulling yourself toward your goal and floating the rest of the way.



You've just described all flying.  Birds push of air to float towards their goal.  Rockets and planes use chemical pushes to float towards their goal.  Leia used the force to push her through space to float towards hers.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 25, 2019)

What Leia's doing with the force is irrelevant IMHO. It's the visuals and it's a bit groan worthy. 

 The main problem is similar to the old novels. Each new director wants to one up the previous. They think it elevated their characters but tends to have the opposite effect. 

It's a chase scene, Leia can pull herself through space and catch up with the galaxy slowest cruiser.

 In a few months I don't think anyone will care about the new characters that much despite having better actors relative to the OT ones at the start of their careers. 

That's on the writers though.


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## ccs (Dec 25, 2019)

doctorbadwolf said:


> It looks like Luke pulling the lightsaber to his hand, or Vader throwing industrial components at Luke in the Bespin fight. It’s very clearly basic telekinesis.




Still looks like flying.

And as Zard pointed out it also had bad CGI.


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## Son of the Serpent (Dec 25, 2019)

Yoda is talking about anakin.  Pure and simple.

And guess what?  Anakin is the one that saved the day because luke couldnt take the emperor down.

He is probably the skywalker yoda meant.  And if yoda meant any other skywalker then he was wrong (wouldnt be the first time)


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## Son of the Serpent (Dec 25, 2019)

Hriston said:


> Obi-Wan clearly thought so, but was he right?
> 
> Leia’s strength in the Force never really plays the part in the story that would be suggested by all that foreshadowing.
> 
> ...



If he wasnt talking about anakin then he was wrong.  As yoda makes a habit of being.  At least in the movies.


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## Maxperson (Dec 25, 2019)

Son of the Serpent said:


> Yoda is talking about anakin.  Pure and simple.
> 
> And guess what?  Anakin is the one that saved the day because luke couldnt take the emperor down.
> 
> He is probably the skywalker yoda meant.  And if yoda meant any other skywalker then he was wrong (wouldnt be the first time)



Yoda was not talking about Anakin.  Yoda said more than once that once down the path to the dark side, FOREVER will it dominate your destiny.  He did not believe it possible for Anakin to come back to the light, and so he would not have spoken as if Vader was another Skywalker to pin hopes on.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Dec 25, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> Yoda was not talking about Anakin.  Yoda said more than once that once down the path to the dark side, FOREVER will it dominate your destiny.  He did not believe it possible for Anakin to come back to the light, and so he would not have spoken as if Vader was another Skywalker to pin hopes on.



Nah, forever doesn't mean forever because only the Sith deal in absolutes.


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## MarkB (Dec 25, 2019)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Yes. It isn’t flight. She couldn’t do it in planetary gravity.



Why not? Rey can.


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## Hriston (Dec 25, 2019)

MarkB said:


> Because she chose not to. She had other things to do with her life.
> 
> 
> Certainly not. For one thing, Yoda was dead by then, and Force Ghost or not, I doubt Luke had any illusions that he was going to be training Leia from beyond the grave.
> ...



You mean _the writers _chose that she had other things to do with her life. Leia can do what she wants, but she isn’t a real person and isn’t responsible for the decisions I’m talking about in this thread. 

Of course, I forgot that Yoda was dead at that point, which underscores that Luke needs to stay alive. How else can he pass on what he has learned?

And I think that’s a beautiful interpretation of the scene between Luke and Leia, and I have no doubt that all that subtext is present, but it says virtually nothing about how she is another hope of defeating Vader and Sidious. Blowing up the second Death Star won’t accomplish that because they could evacuate easily.


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## Hriston (Dec 25, 2019)

Morrus said:


> But...
> 
> 
> Maybe watch the movie before telling us all what doesn't happen in it?



Look, I said I might be missing something (which you’ve edited out here). The statements I’ve read about Episode IX don’t indicate to me that Leia’s Force capabilities figure prominently in the resolution of the plot or that it’s revealed that she indeed became a Force user on the order of a Luke Skywalker. I’ll keep an open mind until I see it, however.


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## Hriston (Dec 25, 2019)

Morrus said:


> Because she does. In the movie you haven't watched yet.



This interests me and has convinced me that I should watch the movie.


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## Morrus (Dec 25, 2019)

Hriston said:


> This interests me and has convinced me that I should watch the movie.



Look at the spoilers I put behind the spoiler button waaay up above. She Jedis up.

Though if that’s the only reason to watch the movie, it might not be worth it.


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## doctorbadwolf (Dec 25, 2019)

ccs said:


> Still looks like flying.
> 
> And as Zard pointed out it also had bad CGI.



Nah, it looked great, and people are being obtuse.


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## Son of the Serpent (Dec 25, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> Yoda was not talking about Anakin.  Yoda said more than once that once down the path to the dark side, FOREVER will it dominate your destiny.  He did not believe it possible for Anakin to come back to the light, and so he would not have spoken as if Vader was another Skywalker to pin hopes on.



Ah.  I thought with his dying breath he was deliriously saying anakin (because with the prophecy it makes the most sense)

But yeah.  Forgot that he was basically centered around that quote.  And he kinda was.


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## Maxperson (Dec 25, 2019)

Son of the Serpent said:


> Ah.  I thought with his dying breath he was deliriously saying anakin (because with the prophecy it makes the most sense)
> 
> But yeah.  Forgot that he was basically centered around that quote.  And he kinda was.



The prophecy was fulfilled before A New Hope.  After Anakin became Vader, he hunted down all the Jedi but Obi-Wan and Yoda.  Two Jedi and two Sith.  Nice and balanced there.


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## Hriston (Dec 28, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> She did develop her power.  She was able to survive a vacuum for a while and force push herself back into the ship.



Right, but that’s all it is. It isn’t important to the plot that she survives by using the Force. She could have survived some other way and the result would be the same. It serves no other purpose than to show that she has Force powers. What I think would be satisfying is for Leia’s Force abilities to be instrumental in resolving the conflict of the story. Maybe there’s something like that in Episode IX, but I’m extremely doubtful. The trilogy so far has clearly not been Leia’s story.


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## Morrus (Dec 28, 2019)

Hriston said:


> What I think would be satisfying is for Leia’s Force abilities to be instrumental in resolving the conflict of the story. Maybe there’s something like that in Episode IX, but I’m extremely doubtful. The trilogy so far has clearly not been Leia’s story.



I've told you, like, 8 times that it does. I even listed the various ways that it does. You ignore it every time, and keep repeating that it doesn't, despite not having seen the film. It's starting to feel like a comedy routine of some kind.


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## Hriston (Dec 28, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Leia has powers but in canon and legends she didn't train as much as say Luke as she spent more time in politics.
> 
> She's the better leader, Luke's the better warrior. Her potential is the same as Luke's. She uses force powers in both but it takes her longer iirc she becomes Jedi Master in both.



She can become a Jedi Master, but if it doesn’t end up being instrumental to the story, then it doesn’t matter. I hope @Morrus is right and that Episode IX finds a way to make it important that Luke found out that Leia was his sister and trained her in the Force. So far that hasn’t been the case, but it makes some sense to withhold it until the last episode.


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## Maxperson (Dec 28, 2019)

Hriston said:


> She can become a Jedi Master, but if it doesn’t end up being instrumental to the story, then it doesn’t matter. I hope @Morrus is right and that Episode IX finds a way to make it important that Luke found out that Leia was his sister and trained her in the Force. So far that hasn’t been the case, but it makes some sense to withhold it until the last episode.



It would be kinda hard for him to be wrong.  If you see a movie, it's pretty apparent what affects the plot and what doesn't.  However, piling on to what you have  been told, I saw the movie and her force powers do affect the story.


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## Hriston (Dec 28, 2019)

Legatus_Legionis said:


> In Legends it was explained that after all that happened between the Jedi and the Sith, it was best to keep Leia's force abilities a secret.
> 
> After all the years of propaganda against the Jedi made by the Empire, having a Jedi taking such a prominent role in the new Republic's government was not something most people would accept.



Okay, but that doesn’t preclude Leia from acting as a Jedi Knight covertly to resolve the major conflict of the story. If it does, then why was it important for Yoda to tell Luke about his sister?


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## Maxperson (Dec 28, 2019)

Hriston said:


> Okay, but that doesn’t preclude Leia from acting as a Jedi Knight covertly to resolve the major conflict of the story. If it does, then why was it important for Yoda to tell Luke about his sister?



How do you propose one of the most recognizable people in the entire galaxy act covertly?


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## Hriston (Dec 28, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Leia using the force wasn't a problem. Her flying in space scene was. Mary Poppins in space and it looked bad/goofy.



The visual aspect of this didn’t bother me. The lack of relevance to the plot did. I don’t think the audience needed it as exposition on the power of the Force, the way that Yoda levitating Luke’s x-wing was used in Episode V, because we already know the Force can do this. So it’s only useful in revealing Leia’s ability, and it felt unsatisfying to me because it was so self contained. It makes sense, however, as foreshadowing of Leia’s formidable Force power which then becomes relevant later in the story. This honestly hadn’t occurred to me as a possibility when I started this thread, my assumption being that Leia’s story was over. I’m happy to be reminded that my assumption was incorrect.


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## Hriston (Dec 28, 2019)

Son of the Serpent said:


> Yoda is talking about anakin.  Pure and simple.
> 
> And guess what?  Anakin is the one that saved the day because luke couldnt take the emperor down.
> 
> He is probably the skywalker yoda meant.  And if yoda meant any other skywalker then he was wrong (wouldnt be the first time)






Son of the Serpent said:


> If he wasnt talking about anakin then he was wrong.  As yoda makes a habit of being.  At least in the movies.



Another wrinkle with this interpretation than the one already mentioned is that right before he says, “There is another Skywalker”, Yoda says, “Pass on what you have learned.” It’s difficult to see Luke’s subsequent interaction with Vader as a teaching moment. 

But I do like the idea that, in that final moment, Anakin overcomes Vader, just as Vader had “killed” Anakin so long ago. I don’t think Anakin could have done it without Luke, though.


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## Hriston (Dec 28, 2019)

Morrus said:


> Look at the spoilers I put behind the spoiler button waaay up above. She Jedis up.
> 
> Though if that’s the only reason to watch the movie, it might not be worth it.



I was hoping for something a little more direct, although I suppose the voice projection and passing on the training could be instrumental. Your “might not be worth it” doesn’t exactly fill me with confidence.


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## Hriston (Dec 28, 2019)

Morrus said:


> I've told you, like, 8 times that it does. I even listed the various ways that it does. You ignore it every time, and keep repeating that it doesn't, despite not having seen the film. It's starting to feel like a comedy routine of some kind.



Sorry, didn’t mean to ignore you. There has been a lot to respond to in this thread. And I haven’t meant to assert that I know what happens in the new movie. I’m just expressing my own skepticism that Leia’s story would be resolved in a satisfying way, and I would be happy to find that to be unfounded.


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## Hriston (Dec 28, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> It would be kinda hard for him to be wrong.  If you see a movie, it's pretty apparent what affects the plot and what doesn't.  However, piling on to what you have  been told, I saw the movie and her force powers do affect the story.



Great! Can’t wait to find out how.


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## Hriston (Dec 28, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> How do you propose one of the most recognizable people in the entire galaxy act covertly?



She could wear a disguise like she did at Jabba’s palace. I also seem to remember Padme doing this in The Clone Wars, so there’s a precedent for this in political figures.


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## Nebulous (Dec 28, 2019)

Retreater said:


> But the quote from "Return of the Jedi" on Yoda's deathbed was:
> Yoda: "Pass on what you have learned. There is another … Sky … walk … er."
> 
> Then the immediate next scene is Obi-Wan telling Luke about his twin sister, Leia. Yoda's dialogue was to set up Leia as Luke's sister, "the other Skywalker."
> ...




Yes, I think it was Leia. Lucas wasn't forward thinking about other descendants or grandchildren of Palpatine.


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## cbwjm (Dec 28, 2019)

Nebulous said:


> Yes, I think it was Leia. Lucas wasn't forward thinking about other descendants or grandchildren of Palpatine.



This is exactly the reason why I believe they were talking about Leia.


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## Son of the Serpent (Dec 28, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> How do you propose one of the most recognizable people in the entire galaxy act covertly?



Thats basically a perfect description of palpatines MO.  Clearly it can be done.  Last person to do it was a famous senator who became emperor all the while covertly manipulating the galaxy as a rule of two sith.


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## Eltab (Dec 28, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> How do you propose one of the most recognizable people in the entire galaxy act covertly?



The movie "Dave" used a comic twist to answer that: find a body double and have _him_ hang out where cameras / microphones can see him.
In the case of Star Wars, Leia could pre-program C-3PO to take care of her official functions and draw attention, while she quietly goes off to do what needs done.


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## Maxperson (Dec 29, 2019)

Sooner or later, someone would see her face, facial recognition software would pick her up, DNA evidence would show up, or something else would happen to give her away.  Palpatine didn't run around being active like you guys are proposing that Leia would.  He was behind the scenes manipulating, which is very different.


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## Hriston (Dec 29, 2019)

Maxperson said:


> Sooner or later, someone would see her face, facial recognition software would pick her up, DNA evidence would show up, or something else would happen to give her away.  Palpatine didn't run around being active like you guys are proposing that Leia would.  He was behind the scenes manipulating, which is very different.



“Behind the scenes” is synonymous with _covertly, _which is the word I used. I don’t think anyone is saying she wouldn’t have to be careful not to reveal her identity to her political opponents, but I think it’s in keeping with Star Wars tropes and Leia’s character in particular that wearing a helmet (or a hood) can do just that. I just don’t think it’s a problem that can’t be written around and would prevent her from using the Force in a way that’s important to the plot, although a late reveal of her power (again as with Sidious in Episode VI) would seem appropriate.


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