# Temple of the Frog



## Melkor (Nov 26, 2009)

In celebration of my 500th EnWorld post, I felt obliged to post one of my all-time favorite Dungeons & Dragons pictures, so here goes:


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## Asmor (Nov 26, 2009)

I'm curious about the reason the guy in the center appears to have laser rifles. o_0


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## Raven Crowking (Nov 26, 2009)

Asmor said:


> I'm curious about the reason the guy in the center appears to have laser rifles. o_0




His "wand of automatic missile fire" was out of bullets.


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## the Jester (Nov 26, 2009)

Asmor said:


> I'm curious about the reason the guy in the center appears to have laser rifles. o_0




There was a lot of that, back in the day.


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## The Shaman (Nov 26, 2009)

Asmor said:


> I'm curious about the reason the guy in the center appears to have laser rifles. o_0



Temple of the Frog includes some science fiction elements; I'll avoid spoilers by witholding the details.

As a matter of fact, I included the Temple of the Frog in my _Traveller_ campaign.


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## Lord Zack (Nov 26, 2009)

the Jester said:


> There was a lot of that, back in the day.




I think there should be more of it today


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## jdrakeh (Nov 26, 2009)

Asmor said:


> I'm curious about the reason the guy in the center appears to have laser rifles. o_0




Blackmoor is a Sci-Fantasy setting. It is essentially a far flung future fantasy setting that takes place amongst the ruins of a once great — and now forgotten — empire. As was the case in fiction such as Jack Vance's _Dying Earth_, technology pops up all over the place, though the misunderstanding populace mistakes it for magic. In fact, of all the D&D settings, I'd say that Blackmoor is the only one that _truly_ qualifies as "Vancian."


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## Treebore (Nov 26, 2009)

Yep, Temple of the Frog has laser rifle and pistols, space ships, fireballs, teleports, evil priests, theives, etc... an awesome blend of sci fi and fantasy. Almost as good as Expedition to Barrier Peaks. Which is in Greyhawk.


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## jdrakeh (Nov 26, 2009)

Treebore said:


> Yep, Temple of the Frog has laser rifle and pistols, space ships, fireballs, teleports, evil priests, theives, etc... an awesome blend of sci fi and fantasy. Almost as good as Expedition to Barrier Peaks. Which is in Greyhawk.




Yeah, but Expedition is one of those rare exceptions to the rule where Greyhawk is concerned (i.e., Greyhawk doesn't have much in the way of high technology save for in Expedition and White Plum Mountain). Sci-Fantasy in Blackmoor, OTOH, was the rule. The entire setting is built on it, explicitly.


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## Treebore (Nov 26, 2009)

jdrakeh said:


> Yeah, but Expedition is one of those rare exceptions to the rule where Greyhawk is concerned (i.e., Greyhawk doesn't have much in the way of high technology save for in Expedition and White Plum Mountain). Sci-Fantasy in Blackmoor, OTOH, was the rule. The entire setting is built on it, explicitly.




Aren't the lands of Blackmoor in Greyhawk supposed to be THE Lands of Blackmoor? Thats the way I always treated it. In fact, when their lasers started running out of charges they heard stories about similar weapons being in the Blackmoor lands, and went up there. I then used my Blackmoor resources leading up to City of the Gods.

Even if I did it wrong, we still had a lot of fun.


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## jdrakeh (Nov 26, 2009)

Treebore said:


> Aren't the lands of Blackmoor in Greyhawk supposed to be THE Lands of Blackmoor?




I don't think so. The original Blackmoor was a standalone setting, as I understand it (i.e., Blackmoor was Dave's house setting, as Greyhawk was Gary's). There was a region of Greyhawk later named Blackmoor but it was never detailed and, given that Arneson's Blackmoor went on to be explicitly tied to The Known World/Mystara, I consider it unlikely that they were one and the same.


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## Jhaelen (Nov 27, 2009)

Lord Zack said:


> I think there should be more of it today



I don't.


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## Plane Sailing (Nov 27, 2009)

Jhaelen said:


> I don't.




Please try to avoid pointless contrary posts like this one.

If you are glad that it doesn't happen now, you should either make a thoughtful post describing the reasons why you are glad it isn't prevalent now, or keep quiet.

Thanks.


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## Ant (Nov 27, 2009)

I used to agree with you Jhaelen, but now that I DM a fair amount OD&D these days, I'd tend to disagree.


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## jdrakeh (Nov 27, 2009)

Ant said:


> I used to agree with you Jhaelen, but now that I DM a fair amount OD&D these days, I'd tend to disagree.




It's weird. I really dislike this kind of thing in my _AD&D_, but I'm all about the Sci-Fantasy in my _OD&D_ and _BD&D_.


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## Joshua Randall (Nov 27, 2009)

jdrakeh said:


> Greyhawk doesn't have much in the way of high technology save for in Expedition and *White Plum Mountain*



Was that from the obscure AD&D Candyland supplement?


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## jdrakeh (Nov 27, 2009)

Joshua Randall said:


> Was that from the obscure AD&D Candyland supplement?




Whoops!


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## Oni (Nov 27, 2009)

Lord Zack said:


> I think there should be more of it today




Hear, hear.  

D&D's at its best when it's a little bit weird.


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## The Shaman (Nov 27, 2009)

Oni said:


> D&D's at its best when it's a little bit weird.



Best served with generous portions of Clark Ashton Smith and Erol Otus.


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## Erik Mona (Nov 27, 2009)

Three great tastes that go great together!

--Erik


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## Korgoth (Nov 27, 2009)

The Shaman said:


> Best served with generous portions of Clark Ashton Smith and Erol Otus.




A sure recipe for awesome.


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## Melkor (Nov 27, 2009)

Purely out of curiousity -

Has anyone produced guns or sci-fi weaponry stats for 4E?


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## the Jester (Nov 27, 2009)

Lord Zack said:


> I think there should be more of it today




Hell yeahz!

My campaign just had the pcs deal with finding, essentially, the magically-radioactive power source for a crashed airship (being detailed in my "Adventures in the Eastern Provinces" story hour, linked in my sig). I've used bad guys that are essentially sentient computer programs. There's a group of orcs that distills sunlight into an extremely volatile and inflammable liquid, then powders the liquid, then uses the resulting "sunpowder" in guns. The epic party in my 3.5 game went, among other places, to what was basically the equivalent of a nuclear reactor running wild. 

Personally, I have always lusted after a _Return to the Barrier Peaks_ kind of module.  Oh man would that be awesome!


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## the Jester (Nov 27, 2009)

Melkor said:


> Purely out of curiousity -
> 
> Has anyone produced guns or sci-fi weaponry stats for 4E?




Yeah, for the sunpowder pistol only. I didn't bother to put a cost on it, because only the orcs know the secret of sunpowder, so it can only be found as treasure, not purchased (generally, anyhow). 

*Sunpowder Pistol- *exotic ranged weapon; range 20/40; proficiency +2; reload minor; damage 1d10; when fired, a sunpowder pistol gives off a burst of smoke, filling the square it is fired from and granting concealment to creatures in that square until the end of the shooter's next turn. 

(I also made a "gun mage" paragon path for the eladrin wizard who captured one and wanted to make it a big part of his schtick.)


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## Jhaelen (Nov 27, 2009)

Plane Sailing said:


> Please try to avoid pointless contrary posts like this one.
> 
> If you are glad that it doesn't happen now, you should either make a thoughtful post describing the reasons why you are glad it isn't prevalent now, or keep quiet.
> 
> Thanks.



 At your service! (although I don't quite understand why the poster I quoted doesn't have to elaborate on his opinion - it's what prompted my response AND the way it turned out, but I know better than arguing with the mods, so...)

I really enjoy fantasy rpgs. A also enjoy sf rpgs - especially, the Eclipse Phase rpg I recently acquired makes me want to start playing in one.

What I don't like is mixing those two. Because they don't mix, they're like water and oil. There's two ways this can go:
a) hi-tech gadgets are turned into a kind of magic item (the D&D approach)
b) magic is sci-fi-tized (e.g. by calling it psi and inventing weirdo-explanations why it should actually work)
A notable exception is Shadowrun - which _almost_ works. It just has terrible game mechanics (at least pre-4E). But at least the setting is cool.

I especially hate the Barrier Peaks module. It was supposed to demonstrate that the D&D rules were flexible enough to properly model a sci-fi setting - and failed miserably. I'll never understand why it's supposed to be a classic.

The Temple of the Frog was actually more clever about mixing genres that don't mix well. But it's still something I don't care about in my games.

So, there


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## haakon1 (Nov 28, 2009)

Treebore said:


> Aren't the lands of Blackmoor in Greyhawk supposed to be THE Lands of Blackmoor? Thats the way I always treated it. In fact, when their lasers started running out of charges they heard stories about similar weapons being in the Blackmoor lands, and went up there. I then used my Blackmoor resources leading up to City of the Gods.
> 
> Even if I did it wrong, we still had a lot of fun.




You're never quite "wrong" in Greyhawk, which is one of its beautiful elements.

The original Blackmoor is a different place.  

But in my Greyhawk, the Temple of the Frog exists, the Comeback Inn exists (about the only bit of civlization left in ruins of Blackmoor City), and the City of the Gods is out there, somewhere, and unexplained.

You can go a "sci fi intrusion" version or a "fantasy tech with clockworks" version about equally well.  I'm sure there are more ways to do it too.  

Dungeon magazine, under Paizo's tenure, had several good adventures in the area.


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## Korgoth (Nov 28, 2009)

Jhaelen said:


> At your service! (although I don't quite understand why the poster I quoted doesn't have to elaborate on his opinion - it's what prompted my response AND the way it turned out, but I know better than arguing with the mods, so...)
> 
> I really enjoy fantasy rpgs. A also enjoy sf rpgs - especially, the Eclipse Phase rpg I recently acquired makes me want to start playing in one.
> 
> ...




See, Shadowrun seems lame to me. But Barrier Peaks rawks.

I don't see why "fantasy" is the prescribed series of tropes that excludes whole swaths of the fantastical. What's not a fantasy about blasting a ravaging Froghemoth with a laser pistol in one hand while hewing at pod people with your magic sword in the other?


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## Votan (Nov 28, 2009)

Jhaelen said:


> The Temple of the Frog was actually more clever about mixing genres that don't mix well. But it's still something I don't care about in my games.




I agree in that it is hard to mix science fiction with classic swords & sorcery while maintaining consistency [how does it it fit in with magic, deities and such].  But it was a common explanation in pulp fiction versions of the genre.  However, this does work better for a one-off than an episode in a continuind campaign.

The Expedition to the Barrier Peaks works that way -- it is much better for "shock value" in a single session than a good episode in an on-going campaign.


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## Ariosto (Nov 28, 2009)

If we're just talking Star Wars and Star Trek zappy gadgets, then where's the science in the fiction? Psi ain't sci, pal. It's _all_ "magic" accomplished with handwavium. The ray guns, robots and rockets just tend to be more occult, more arcane than the common and reliable technology of talismans and incantations. A touch of mystery and danger adds spice once in a while, you know?


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## Chainsaw (Nov 28, 2009)

Ariosto said:


> The ray guns, robots and rockets just tend to be more occult, more arcane than the common and reliable technology of talismans and incantations. A touch of mystery and danger adds spice once in a while, you know?




Agreed.

Once upon a time, I probably would have been pretty resistant to mixing sci-fi with fantasy, but if it's done right, I don't think it has to cause a problem or spoil the mood. I like the idea of mixing alien technology from ancient otherworldly creatures from another universe into my world - not as a common everyday item, but occasionally as a plot point. Consider the frog people (Edit: What is it with frog people and alien tech???) from Wagner's Bloodstone.. they worshipped some ancient, nearly omnipotent alien creature that had crashed/landed in the swamp a zillion years ago. There weren't any pistols or pulse rifles, but there was some alien technology that eventually went face-to-face with magic power. It played out fine in the book. It wasn't Stormtroopers vs. Barbarians (Edit: Yikes, this is Return of the Jedi, isn't it??).

For me, I guess it ultimately depends on frequency and terminology. I'm fine with the very infrequent as long as it's not spoiling the mood by introducing anachronistic/out of game world terms.. if there's one ancient weapon from the stars (that just happens to be a pulse rifle or whatever), then that's fine. Nobody's going to be calling it a Blaster 9000x though. It essentially functions like a very strangely shaped staff or wand (or magical crossbow) that no one really understands.


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## Treebore (Nov 28, 2009)

haakon1 said:


> You're never quite "wrong" in Greyhawk, which is one of its beautiful elements.
> 
> The original Blackmoor is a different place.
> 
> ...





When I decided to use Blackmoor in the Greyhawk area labeled Blackmoor I used all the maps from the Blackmoor supplements. So it was the "real" Blackmoor the way I ran it. They were just very exclusionary and a lot of people didn't like going into Blackmoor any more than they liked going into the lands of Iuz or the Kingdoms of the East, etc... It worked perfectly. Even when players noticed certain maps didn't match up with the over all shapes of the GH map I just said, "Hmmmm, I wonder why that would be?"

Then I would get the lame unimaginative response of, "TSR did the maps wrong."

Then I would say, "Or, more likely, someone in Blackmoor doesn't want accurate maps outside of Blackmoor."

Which actually came up in play when I ran City of the Gods.


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## Plane Sailing (Nov 28, 2009)

I think sci-fi/fantasy crossover was perhaps a lot more common in the 70's generally.

Perhaps a nod to Atlantis-style fantasies of older, more advanced civilisations?

I remember that my first D&D campaign had a desert to the north which had the buried remains of high tech civilisation which offended the gods.

Empire of the Petal Throne is perhaps the grandest possible example of fantasy living upon a sci-fi backstory which works well. 

My preference is for the EPT level of technological integration rather than, say, the Gamma World equivalent. The latter I find jarring, the former I find inspiring.

Cheers


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## Asmor (Nov 28, 2009)

Melkor said:


> Purely out of curiousity -
> 
> Has anyone produced guns or sci-fi weaponry stats for 4E?




I did, including 3 new weapon abilities (clip, spread, and unreliable)

Encounter-a-Day » Archive » Treasures & Trinkets: Firearms


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## Chainsaw (Nov 28, 2009)

Plane Sailing said:


> I think sci-fi/fantasy crossover was perhaps a lot more common in the 70's generally.
> 
> Perhaps a nod to Atlantis-style fantasies of older, more advanced civilisations?




May be the case. I love 70s fantasy and it seems that sci-fi pops up more often back then. Again, though, my experience is that it's usually inserted as ancient alien tech and the devices are not usually referred to/described using Star Wars/Star Trek type terminology. That works fine for me because in that context, it adds to the mystery and uncertainty of the mood - it's not disruptive. Nobody in my group would mind stumbling on a strange, moss covered smooth metal thing, shaped like an egg.. but I think people would have a problem if I said, "So, you find an interplanetary space cruiser, but the hyperdrive is clearly broken." Pictures of mixed-settings (like the one at the beginnig of this thread) don't really convey how the material's presented, which may explain why some folks have such knee-jerk negative reactions.


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## Dire Bare (Nov 28, 2009)

One of my favorite pictures too!

I've always felt that the crazy number of different D&D monsters and races fits a sci fantasy campaign better than a straight fantasy campaign!


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## Jack99 (Nov 28, 2009)

Melkor said:


> Purely out of curiousity -
> 
> Has anyone produced guns or sci-fi weaponry stats for 4E?




Scarrport has guns, unless my mind is playing tricks on me again.


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## Cerebral Paladin (Nov 29, 2009)

Treebore said:


> When I decided to use Blackmoor in the Greyhawk area labeled Blackmoor I used all the maps from the Blackmoor supplements. So it was the "real" Blackmoor the way I ran it. They were just very exclusionary and a lot of people didn't like going into Blackmoor any more than they liked going into the lands of Iuz or the Kingdoms of the East, etc... It worked perfectly.




I always assumed that the "Blackmoor" in Greyhawk was intended to be the same as the published Blackmoor.  My assumption was always that this was a combination of EGG having initially put in the connection with Greyhawk and then them later putting Blackmoor in the OD&D family (presumably because of the various squabbles between Arneson and TSR back in the day).  I also assumed that the old settings had more of a "sure, things can be located in multiple possible worlds-- do whatever's good for your campaign."  So if you were running Greyhawk and wanted Blackmoor in Greyhawk, go ahead and run Temple of the Frog.  But if you were running Mystara, and wanted Blackmoor to be part of the prehistory, that's cool, too.  And if you wanted Greyhawk to be the subsequent history of your Gamma World campaign, rock on.

(I view the duplication of the Blackmoor in multiple campaigns as akin to the use of gods like Moradin in many different campaigns.  Sure, that could also be explained by the whole "multiple primes in the same multiverse" model, but outside of the in-game explanation, I think the whole "grab whatever you like" sort of model explains a lot of traditional design.  Kinda like how there are Keeps on the Borderlands in any number of different campaign worlds, as different DMs just slotted it in to their campaigns.)


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## Doug McCrae (Nov 29, 2009)

jdrakeh said:


> As was the case in fiction such as Jack Vance's _Dying Earth_, technology pops up all over the place, though the misunderstanding populace mistakes it for magic.



Give an example.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm wondering how you can be sure it's technology and not magic.

In fact, I think that's what's wrong with EttBP. It's not subtle enough about the technology. It should leave it open as to whether it's tech or magic. Not use terms like 'access card' and 'laser rifle'. They should be talismans and blasting rods.


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## Doug McCrae (Nov 29, 2009)

Chainsaw said:


> Nobody's going to be calling it a Blaster 9000x though.



It's all about the language. The references to Star Wars are very apt. It's fantasy (and, ofc, sci-fi). Science fiction tells us about the present, by extrapolation. Star Wars is different, it's timeless, an eternal Campbellian story.

Lucas's use of language supports this well. Blaster, not laser. 'Laser' is too precise a term, too scientific. It tells us too much about how the gadget works. 'Midichlorians' are a noteworthy exception, Lucas gets it wrong here. It's far too contemporary and technical a word.

I love the references to the 30s serials in the prequels. The 'ray field' in Episode III is thoroughly Buster Crabbe era Flash Gordon.


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## Lord Zack (Nov 29, 2009)

I'm currently working on a campaign that includes a lot of Sci-Fi elements. This is in part because it's based on Final Fantasy I, but takes the Sci-Fi to much higher extremes. For instance my equivalents to the four crystals are in fact high tech facilities meant to regulate the natural forces of the world, one for each of the four elements. My equivalent of the Sky Castle is in fact a space station in low orbit. And yes there will be a War Mech expy, and in fact many robotic enemies. There's more about it in my blog, in the post "The Legacy of the Titans".


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## Khazan (Nov 29, 2009)

The Shaman said:


> Best served with generous portions of Clark Ashton Smith and Erol Otus.




oh yeh... my brother and i used to LOL (before we knew that we were LOLing, of course...) at the crazy illustrations of Mr. Otus.

he liked tentacles, didn't he?


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## jdrakeh (Nov 29, 2009)

Doug McCrae said:


> Give an example.




There are _several_ examples that I can think of right off the top of my head. 

There's the 'living statue' oracle that the religious pilgrims worship in _Eyes of the Overworld_ (it is later revealed that there is an intercom speaker wired into the statue's head and that the operator is running an elaborate con). 

The city of Ampridatvir in _The Dying Earth_ is described explicitly as having conveyor belts and other obvious mechanical contrivances. Likewise, in _The Dying Earth_, Ulan Dhor utilizes what is clearly described as a flying automobile on his way to retrieve artifacts from Ampridatvir. 

Then, again in _The Dying Earth_, Guyal of Sfere seeks out the Museum of Man and asks questions of the Curator, clearly described a giant super computer (complete with tape reels and blinking lights). 



> I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm wondering how you can be sure it's technology and not magic.




Because I've read the books. Technology is described as technology and magic as magic in most of Vance's fiction, including _The Dying Earth_. There's not a lot of ambiguity about it. If he meant the elements that I mention to be interpreted by the reader as magical, then they would have been described as magical in nature (like the spells, rings of invisibility, or other overtly magical elements that show up in _The Dying Earth_ books). They weren't. 

For other examples of Vance's fiction that heavily borrow from both fantasy and sci-fi, see the Alastor Cluster trilogy, The Last Castle, The Blue World, and Maske: Thaery. All of these books contain elements of overt technology and magic, each described appropriately. In fact, I'd say that _most_ of Vance's fiction is Sci-Fantasy, not solely Fantasy or Science Fiction.


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## Shemeska (Nov 29, 2009)

N/M totally off topic


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## haakon1 (Nov 29, 2009)

Treebore said:


> Even when players noticed certain maps didn't match up with the over all shapes of the GH map I just said, "Hmmmm, I wonder why that would be?"
> 
> Then I would get the lame unimaginative response of, "TSR did the maps wrong."
> 
> ...




Excellent, sire.

For me, the City of the Gods is a very hard to find place where "the barriers between realities are thin".  There, if you can find it in a blinding whiteout, you can stumble across into Lake Geneva, Wisconsin, which is the City of the Gods.  

Also, the weird gate in the basement of the Comeback Inn sounds enough like the Stargates in Stargate SG-1 that I've decided it is one . . . that explains the Comeback Inn's collection of exotic headgear, which really did need a clever explanation, didn't it?  

I never actually used either idea "on screen", but the Stargate idea is known to one now-retired PC, who met a Stargate Marine and helped him return home.  As a result of the Marine selling some items to a magic shop for provisions, a few items from the modern world are floating around as "magic items", including night vision goggles that the party has bought.  The retired PC has an FN Five-seveN pistol as a gift for his troubles . . .


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## Asmor (Nov 29, 2009)

Doug McCrae said:


> 'Midichlorians' are a noteworthy exception, Lucas gets it wrong here. It's far too contemporary and technical a word.




I'd have to disagree there. I don't see anything necessarily contemporary or technical in that word. The only thing I can think of which it reminds me of is chlorine, and I don't think that was intentional.

Of course, that's just the word itself; the concept it represents (single-cell life forms living in your blood) is absolutely in keeping with your point that it violates Star Wars's otherwise "unexplained" sci-fi.


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## Rel (Nov 29, 2009)

Asmor said:


> Of course, that's just the word itself; the concept it represents (single-cell life forms living in your blood) is absolutely in keeping with your point that it violates Star Wars's otherwise "unexplained" sci-fi.




Yeah.  I wouldn't go so far as to say that it violates canon but Old Ben explained the Force to Luke as a mystical force that "binds the universe together".  He didn't breathe a word about the science of it all.


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## Treebore (Nov 30, 2009)

I think Midichlorians are an idea spun off of Mitochondria. 

Definitely analogous of each other.

Biology4Kids.com: Cell Structure: Mitochondria


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## darjr (Nov 30, 2009)

I to really like Sci-Fantasy.

In differing degrees as well.

I want to run a Traveller game, just after the big war with father, a generation after the giant war machines have crawled to a stop. Call it post apoc if you'd like, but I'd run it all much like the Dying earth, with strange alien tech being the 'magic' and more primitive type tech being the 'high tech'.


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## The Shaman (Nov 30, 2009)

darjr said:


> I want to run a Traveller game, just after the big war with father, a generation after the giant war machines have crawled to a stop. Call it post apoc if you'd like, but I'd run it all much like the Dying earth, with strange alien tech being the 'magic' and more primitive type tech being the 'high tech'.



I'd play in that game.


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## jdrakeh (Nov 30, 2009)

The Shaman said:


> I'd play in that game.




Seconded. In fact, Traveller would be _perfect_ for such a game.


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## Ariosto (Nov 30, 2009)

What I'm really not big on is making trains, planes, automobiles, telephones, radios, etc., as commonplace in the fantasy world as in our own but with some supposedly "magical" explanation.

I have enjoyed, e.g., Randall Garrett's novel _Too Many Magicians_, and Mike Pondsmith's _Castle Falkenstein_ game is lovely. It takes a careful touch, though, to keep from producing results that mainly evoke for me the parody and satire in Terry Pratchett's Discworld. Not that I take my D&D with terrible seriousness, but some things I like to leave in the Dungeon Dimensions.

Maybe it's just that I got some kinds of wackiness out of my system in the early '80s during a heavily Arduin-inflected period.

I don't mind players getting a bit "Connecticut Yankee" with D&D spells and magic items and monsters, but they'll find out soon enough why Obviously Brilliant Scheme #9 was not already implemented centuries earlier ... or maybe what happened when it was!


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## Voadam (Nov 30, 2009)

The teeth on the giant frogs makes them look more abberant to me, as if they are blurring into lizards/crocodiles.


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## Erik Mona (Nov 30, 2009)

Doug McCrae said:


> Give an example.
> 
> I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm wondering how you can be sure it's technology and not magic.




I presume you've not read The Dying Earth, then? I'm on vacation away from my complete works Jack Vance Integral Edition, but from memory there's a story in the first Dying Earth book (Guyl of Sefere?) in which the hero adventures into a "dungeon" that is essentially a modern museum, filled with all kinds of modern stuff from the (then) distant past.

This is a regular conceit of the Dying Earth stories, though many can be read as pure fantasies.

--Erik


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## Erik Mona (Nov 30, 2009)

jdrakeh said:


> In fact, I'd say that _most_ of Vance's fiction is Sci-Fantasy, not solely Fantasy or Science Fiction.




By extension, I'd add that MOST of the "fantasy" published in the pulp magazines at the time Vance was publishing his Dying Earth stories was in fact "sci-fantasy". Certainly most of the paperback books by, say, Henry Kuttner that were re-released by ACE in the decade preceding the release of D&D were science fantasy. Even books like The Mask of Circe and Valley of the Flame, which could have been written as pure fantasies, have technological elements in them. Monsters turn out to be robots, magic faces on walls turn out to be hypnosis machines from another dimension, etc.

--Erik


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## grodog (Nov 30, 2009)

jdrakeh said:


> Yeah, but Expedition is one of those rare exceptions to the rule where Greyhawk is concerned (i.e., Greyhawk doesn't have much in the way of high technology save for in Expedition and White Plum Mountain). Sci-Fantasy in Blackmoor, OTOH, was the rule. The entire setting is built on it, explicitly.




The original campaign included more sci-fi and sci-fantasy than has been revealed in the published modules/etc.:  in addition to S3 and WPM (? I don't recall any in there, FWIW), there were:

- robots and androids in the OD&D monster lists (along with ERB Mars creatures)
- laser rilfes in Expedition to the Black Reservoir (a level in Castle Greyhawk)
- the Machine Level of Castle Greyhawk (ditto, to be published by Rob Kuntz's Pied Piper in 2010)
- the D&D/Metamorphosis Alpha cross-over in "Faceless Men & Clockwork Monsters" (The Dragon #17)
- ERB's Mars
- Vance's Planet of Adventure
- and doubtless others that I've since forgotten about

as well as a nod to MA in C1 (the Warden II miniature ship).


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## Harley Stroh (Nov 30, 2009)

While not science fantasy in the sci-fi sense, Beyond the Magic Mirror offered up some tech (along with a reference to Zagyg and his six-guns, if memory serves).

//H


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## Chris Knapp (Nov 30, 2009)

Doug McCrae said:


> Lucas's use of language supports this well. Blaster, not laser. 'Laser' is too precise a term, too scientific. It tells us too much about how the gadget works. 'Midichlorians' are a noteworthy exception, Lucas gets it wrong here. It's far too contemporary and technical a word.



Except when the called the large turrets on the original Death Star "Turbolasers."


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## Twowolves (Nov 30, 2009)

Doug McCrae said:


> It's all about the language. The references to Star Wars are very apt. It's fantasy (and, ofc, sci-fi). Science fiction tells us about the present, by extrapolation. Star Wars is different, it's timeless, an eternal Campbellian story.
> 
> Lucas's use of language supports this well. Blaster, not laser. 'Laser' is too precise a term, too scientific.





The Death Star had "TurboLasers"


I'm your
Turbo
LASER!!


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## Glyfair (Dec 1, 2009)

Erik Mona said:


> By extension, I'd add that MOST of the "fantasy" published in the pulp magazines at the time Vance was publishing his Dying Earth stories was in fact "sci-fantasy". Certainly most of the paperback books by, say, Henry Kuttner that were re-released by ACE in the decade preceding the release of D&D were science fantasy. Even books like The Mask of Circe and Valley of the Flame, which could have been written as pure fantasies, have technological elements in them. Monsters turn out to be robots, magic faces on walls turn out to be hypnosis machines from another dimension, etc.



My understanding is that was because science fiction paid a lot more than "fantasy" (and also would probably have an easier time being published at all).  Authors who wanted to write fantasy would dress it up as science fiction, in order to get a better check.


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## the Jester (Dec 1, 2009)

Asmor said:


> Of course, that's just the word itself; the concept it represents (single-cell life forms living in your blood) is absolutely in keeping with your point that it violates Star Wars's otherwise "unexplained" sci-fi.




But I think it's fitting that, in the earlier years when things were more advanced, the Jedi understood much more about how the Force works.


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## Amphimir Míriel (Dec 1, 2009)

*Sci-Fantasy*

The other day I was thinking of this setting for a 4E campaign... It's fantasy, with a heavy dash of Sci-fi, and very much a points-of-light setting...


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## the Jester (Dec 1, 2009)

Harley Stroh said:


> While not science fantasy in the sci-fi sense, Beyond the Magic Mirror offered up some tech (along with a reference to Zagyg and his six-guns, if memory serves).
> 
> //H




Wasn't in Murlynd?


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## Plane Sailing (Dec 1, 2009)

the Jester said:


> But I think it's fitting that, in the earlier years when things were more advanced, the Jedi understood much more about how the Force works.




What, and in 20 years Obi Wan "forgot"? I don't suppose anyone in their forties would consider biology they learnt at school and say "Ah, it is a mystical force", would they? They may have forgotten the details, but not the basic principles.

I don't buy that at all. I don't know why Lucas decided to put a sciency veneer on his 1970's mysticism, but it helped mark out the nadir of the prequels for me.

Cheers


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## Raven Crowking (Dec 1, 2009)

Plane Sailing said:


> I don't know why Lucas decided to put a sciency veneer on his 1970's mysticism, but it helped mark out the nadir of the prequels for me.





The same reason he decided Greedo should shoot first.....

.......a strange desire to "answer" every criticism of the Star Wars milieu, even if the criticism itself was half-baked.  Heck, he even went so far as to prove that the Ewoks weren't the most annoying species in the galaxy!


RC


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## Gentlegamer (Dec 1, 2009)

Twowolves said:


> I'm your
> Turbo
> LASER!!



Tell
me
there's
no
OTHER!


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## AllisterH (Dec 1, 2009)

Heh...

How many of us were influenced by Thundarr the barbarian when we played Gamma World?

To this day, I think Thundarr had one of the most original backstories for any animation...

EDIT: Did the creators of Thundarr ever say if they were influenced by Gamma World?


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## rogueattorney (Dec 1, 2009)

Gamma World debuted in 1978 and Thundarr in 1980.  So, I suppose it's possible.  However, the post-apocalyptic world was a pretty major part of the cultural zeitgeist back in that era of late Cold War fatigue.  (Road Warrior and Mad Max, for example.)  So, I think it's more likely that they both emerged from the same cultural stew.

Thundarr had some heavy hitters from the world of comics work as writers and designers - Jack Kirby and Steve Gerber to name just two - so it should be no surprise that it was a high quality show (relatively speaking for Saturday morning fair).


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## grodog (Dec 2, 2009)

Harley Stroh said:


> While not science fantasy in the sci-fi sense, Beyond the Magic Mirror offered up some tech (along with a reference to Zagyg and his six-guns, if memory serves).




True, true:  Murlynd's house had electricity, VCRs, and various other technological oddments awaiting discovery by PCs.



the Jester said:


> Wasn't in Murlynd?




And also true!  Encounters with Murlynd, however, also had a chance to include Zagyg, Heward, Keoghtom, Mordenkainen, Celestian, Fharlanghn, etc., so Harley wasn't really wrong, just misguided


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## Henry (Dec 2, 2009)

grodog said:


> True, true:  Murlynd's house had electricity, VCRs, and various other technological oddments awaiting discovery by PCs.




Did anyone's group ever blow up his "Generator" and piss him off?

My group did. Wish or not, someone does get pissed when you burn half their house down.


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