# Howzabout a Warnin'?



## mythusmage

If you _must_ close a thread down could you give a fella a warnin'?

Why was it closed? Other than Clay -who overreacted- who complained? Is there a mod so sensitive to _possible_ complaints he must act proactively, and without cause? Must we become so paranoid about what we say nothing gets said?

Has the human soul become such a pitiful thing it must be protected at all times from the bruises and cuts all lives are subject too? Or are we going to tell the nervous nellies and chicken littles to chill out and stop acting so dang antsy, when there aint nothin' goin' on?

Stop treating all complaints as if they were the Word of God.


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## diaglo

Warning system overload.


 


linkage?


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## Piratecat

mythusmage said:
			
		

> Stop treating all complaints as if they were the Word of God.




You mean like this complaint? Damn it, now I'm all confused!  

Seriously, we got a couple of complaints by email. It seems like it didn't offend most people, but the people it bothered it REALLY bothered. The moderator made a judgment call, and there we are.

What you don't see is all the complaints we get where we _don't_ necessarily respond publicly, because we feel shutting down the thread isn't necessary. A lot of those are handled by email. You'll never notice those, of course, so complaints that are acted upon get a bit more attention.


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## Piratecat

In addition, warnings generally proceed threads that are fundamentally on topic and interesting, but which are getting hijacked. This thread didn't fit that category (as the fundamental nature of it was bothering some people), so a warning wouldn't have served much purpose.


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## Henry

Since I locked the thread, I'll throw in one more bit of commentary.

The reason is in the last post in the thread - I put it in at the same time I locked it.

Also, I debated a pretty good while on whether to close it; I was, ahem, involved quite well myself.  In the end, it was more than one complaint that killed it, and the fact that some people REALLY took offense, as PCat said. So, explanation given, thread closed.


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## tburdett

So, all it takes to get a thread locked is more than one complaint, and the people complaining have to be REALLY upset about it.  I will have to remember that.


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## Piratecat

tburdett said:
			
		

> So, all it takes to get a thread locked is more than one complaint, and the people complaining have to be REALLY upset about it.  I will have to remember that.




Good passive aggression. I give it a B.  

Actually, all it takes to get a thread locked is a moderator deciding that it should be locked. Sometimes that opinion will be popular, and sometimes it won't be. This is your tradeoff for a site that relies on moderator instinct, and not on a laundry list of specific rules, to keep the decorum.


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## diaglo

Piratecat said:
			
		

> This is your tradeoff for a site that relies on moderator instinct, and not on a laundry list of specific rules, to keep the decorum.




sounds like an OD&D site to me.


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## Umbran

Also, warnings invite immediate public debate on whether the thing should be closed, which has historically proved to be at least as harmful as the thread itself, I think.

And diaglo, I gotta tell you, it was witty for a while. But the _endless_ references are getting a bit tired.  Any shtick gets worn kinda thin by overuse.


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## Mark

Piratecat said:
			
		

> This is your tradeoff for a site that relies on moderator instinct, and not on a laundry list of specific rules, to keep the decorum.





There once was an RPG forum,
That was known far and wide for decorum,
Decisions and beatings,
Decided in meetings,
Where ONE was the number for quorum...


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## mythusmage

Henry, Piratecat, did it ever occur to you to ask, are these complaints valid? Is there any worth to them? Or are they petty souled complaints empty of meaning? You can't satisfy all who moan and whine, sometimes you must tell them no.

Humor is cruel. All humor worth the name. Humor cuts and cuts deep because it says things of us some would rather not hear. All jest will, perforce, offend some, and some need offending. Do your utmost to offend none, and you'll end up offending all.

Your actions were ill advised. You disappoint me.


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## alsih2o

mythusmage said:
			
		

> Humor is cruel. All humor worth the name. Humor cuts and cuts deep because it says things of us some would rather not hear. All jest will, perforce, offend some, and some need offending. Do your utmost to offend none, and you'll end up offending all.





A neutron walks into a bar. "I'd like a beer" he says.
The bartender promptly serves up a beer. 
"How much will that be?" asks the neutron. 
"For you?" replies the bartender, "no charge" 


 please point out the cruelty in the previous humor. also please explain who would be offended.


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## tburdett

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Good passive aggression. I give it a B.
> 
> Actually, all it takes to get a thread locked is a moderator deciding that it should be locked. Sometimes that opinion will be popular, and sometimes it won't be. This is your tradeoff for a site that relies on moderator instinct, and not on a laundry list of specific rules, to keep the decorum.



Now I know you are clearly biased!  Only a B?!?  I will have to try harder.


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## LightPhoenix

alsih2o said:
			
		

> A neutron walks into a bar. "I'd like a beer" he says.
> The bartender promptly serves up a beer.
> "How much will that be?" asks the neutron.
> "For you?" replies the bartender, "no charge"
> 
> please point out the cruelty in the previous humor. also please explain who would be offended.



Actually, I am.  That was terrible. 

Besides, neutrons can be broken apart to electrons and protons, and that means they do have charge - one positive and one negative.  That's without getting into sub-atomic particles.

Yes, I'm a dork.  Resume the bickering.


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## BSF

Ah what the heck?  I might as well throw some wood onto this fire.  

The thread in question was surely meant in good humor.  As for me, personally, I looked at the thread title and decided it wouldn't include anything of value to me.  With all the debate, I decided I should at least look at it to see what was offensive.  It is typical Jeff Foxworthy style humor.  Frankly, I have always found it to be inane and borderline offensive.  That is my pesonal take on it.  It isn't a style of humor that appeals to my tastes.  I wouldn't lambast anyone that thought it was funny, nor would I label anyone as over-sensitive if they were offended.  

IIRC - The thread starter lives in one distinct area of the country.  Namely California.  I live in New Mexico.  I know another poster in the thread resides in Tennessee, I think somebody chimed in that they were from Iowa and we have others from Georgia.  Those are the people I can easily think of.  There may be many regional issues that each of us is unaware of that might make certain forms of humor inappropriate and not very funny.  I can certainly think of a few styles of jokes that might be hilarious outside of New Mexico that would be greeted with icy silence at best.  But, unless you lived here, you probably wouldn't understand why.  Why wouldn't "redneck" jokes be the same?

I fully support freedom of speech.  I fully accept that some things will be funny to some, but not others.  I agree that there are times when each of us probably takes ourselves too seriously and a joke can cause us to stop and think.  What I am having trouble really understanding is why this is such an issue?  Great, a thread was started and some people had fun with it.  Other people felt offended.  The mods read the complaints and decided they were valid enough to shut down the thread.  Shouldn't that be enough?


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## Michael Morris

Wanna be offensive

Go Nuts!!

But remember, they bite back.


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## Darrin Drader

So, does anyone want to provide a link for us poor souls who enjoy looking at the car wreck as we drive by?


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## Mark

Baraendur said:
			
		

> So, does anyone want to provide a link for us poor souls who enjoy looking at the car wreck as we drive by?




Not used to your new-found Community Suporter status, eh?  Click on a profile button, then click on the link to "Find all threads started by this user" and it should be a peice of cake...


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## Darrin Drader

Mark said:
			
		

> Not used to your new-found Community Suporter status, eh?  Click on a profile button, then click on the link to "Find all threads started by this user" and it should be a peice of cake...




Oh, yeah, he he.

For what its worth I didn't consider the thread offensive, but I also didn't considerably entertaining either. Not being a fan of Jeff Foxworthy's humor in the first place, derivative humor comes across as less funny.

On the other hand, I really think some people need to get some thicker skins. You think this is bad, try being from a German heritage with a very German sounding last name and see what people write about "your people". Better yet, go read the B5 Earth Alliance factbook and what it says about Germans. If I were the type to get offended, I would be far more offended by what was printed in that book than this. At least the humor from the thread in question is generally rednecks poking fun at themselves rather than people who have traditionally been enemies writing "factual" information about them.

Oh well, who am I to talk? I've gotten irked before. It happens.


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## TiQuinn

Just as some folks didn't find the thread funny because they don't find that brand of humor entertaining, those who felt offended by it didn't have to read it either.  It was pretty obvious from the thread title what it was about.


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## Holy Bovine

TiQuinn said:
			
		

> Just as some folks didn't find the thread funny because they don't find that brand of humor entertaining, those who felt offended by it didn't have to read it either.  It was pretty obvious from the thread title what it was about.




But some people aren't happy unless they can stop happiness in other places.  Just ask anyone who has ever posted in a 'hivemind' thread.

Foxworthy is borderline funny to me and has never said anything I could remotely find offensive.  Listen to Denis Leary or Lewis Black if you want to be offended.


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## Piratecat

Baraendur said:
			
		

> You think this is bad, try being from a German heritage with a very German sounding last name and see what people write about "your people".




Tell me about it. I'm a half Polish, and people tell Polish jokes around me all the freakin' time. I always have to remind them to speak more s-l-o-w-l-y.


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## Macbeth

Heh, I think I can top this all: Half italian, but VERY Irish/Scottish looking. the number of jokes you can tell with that kind of background staggers the mind. Now, just wait until I turn 21, so i can a drunk too, which will really fill out the stereotype.

As for the topic at hand, I think the mods did what was justified. I'm not going to give my opinion of the jokes themselves, but I think that any thread that can divide this great community this much isn't worth the trouble. Really, no matter how funny it was to some, if the thread can stir up that strong a negative emotion, i think we're better of just staying away. I would rather have a strong community that dosen't blatantly attack certain stereotypes, then a community where we can make fun of any stereotype we choose, but we loose this excelent sense of community.


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## Tallok

umm, I'd weigh in, but I don't have community supporter, could someone please post a link?


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## the Jester

mythusmage said:
			
		

> Henry, Piratecat, did it ever occur to you to ask, are these complaints valid? Is there any worth to them? Or are they petty souled complaints empty of meaning? You can't satisfy all who moan and whine, sometimes you must tell them no.
> 
> Humor is cruel. All humor worth the name. Humor cuts and cuts deep because it says things of us some would rather not hear. All jest will, perforce, offend some, and some need offending. Do your utmost to offend none, and you'll end up offending all.
> 
> Your actions were ill advised. You disappoint me.




Alan, does it ever occur to you to learn from experience?  When you post an offensive thread, it will get closed down.  It's happened in the past, and hey presto! -here we go again.  Granted, I didn't find the thread in question offensive, but I can easily see why some do.  Now, I have nothing against you offending people, but try doing it in an appropriate setting.  

One of the best things about ENWorld is that I can come here and generally assume that the tone will be friendly.  If a thread threatens that atmosphere, it should be closed, regardless of how funny 80% of us think it is- even if I'm part of that 80%!  It _just isn't worth_ poisoning the community spirit here.

Remember that 16K we raised?  (Though, honestly, by the time I found out about the need it was all over so I didn't get to chip in in a moment of need, alas.)  Would that have happened if everyone was constantly pissing in each others' faces here?  Probably not.

Arguing that it's okay to offend people here- in fact, that it's sometimes needed- is ridiculous, imo.  Who decides who needs to be offended?  As for the validity of the complaints, if someone complains that a thread makes them feel uncomfortable, my first instinctive response is "don't read it!"  But if the _title_ of the thread is offensive- and I'm sure to those offended by the thread in question, just seeing the title on page one was enough to bother them- then there's a problem that needs to be fixed.  And it certainly isn't your place to tell other people their feelings aren't valid.  After all, that's what calling the complaints "petty souled" and "empty of meaning" is- you're essentially saying, "Well, it may have bothered you, but your feelings don't matter."

Bad form.  I think the mods did the right thing (again, even though I laughed all through the thread) and I'd never call it ill-advised.  Starting not one, but TWO public threads, in order to debate their decision *when you know better* _is_ ill-advised, on the other hand.

They were, after all, trying to be considerate of others, while you're arguing that the right thing to do is ignore the feelings of others.

There, I've said my piece.


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## Mark Chance

the Jester said:
			
		

> Who decides who needs to be offended?




I'll volunteer for this job.


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## diaglo

the Jester said:
			
		

> Would that have happened if everyone was constantly pissing in each others' faces here?




you're right. DM Magic wouldn't like that.  

but then again some others just might get into it.


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## Michael Morris

Speaking of Bad Fur Day, you still owe Martin a Haiku.

It's probably for the best that you leave what goes on in _that_ forum off of ENWorld.


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## diaglo

Michael_Morris said:
			
		

> Speaking of Bad Fur Day, you still owe Martin a Haiku.




my abilities with a computer are limited. i couldn't hack a furball, much less a whole forum.


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## alsih2o

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Tell me about it. I'm a half Polish, and people tell Polish jokes around me all the freakin' time. I always have to remind them to speak more s-l-o-w-l-y.





 i find a pretty big doifference between mocking someone for something THEY find funny, such as a FALSE implication that they are slow and mocking a person for being rural and poor when they are indeed rural and poor.

 does anyone else see that? mocking p-kitty for being dumb is obviously a joke, because he is a bright guy.

 mocking some who IS rural and poor for being trural and poor isn't too funny imho.

 if any other ethnicity had been the target of derision that hit directly it would be different.

 how many X to screw in a light bulb can be funny because we all knwo it takes only one.

 but "haHA  you are poor and live in a mobile home" isn't a joke, it is a mockery of a true condition, and therefore reprehensible.

 add to this mythusmages insulting emails he felt the need to send me explaining how immature i am and it leaves me wondering....

 maybe in 6 generations, when rural folk are as far seperated from the conditions that lead to jokes about them as irish and polish folks are from the conditions that led folks to originally start telling jokes about them it will be found funny bt people like me.

 what i do know for a fact is that people like mythus see people like me as having absolutely zero value in life. there is nothing funny about that.


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## Piratecat

alsih2o said:
			
		

> what i do know for a fact is that people like mythus see people like me as having absolutely zero value in life. there is nothing funny about that.




No. If we are going to have this conversation, we are NOT going to ascribe motivations to people that we haven't actually met. It is absolutely possible to tell a racist joke without being racist, or a sexist joke without being sexist. Please don't label other people with absolutes.

I can accept "It feels like people like..."  No one can argue with how you feel. But it's far from established as a fact, Clay, and it's not fair to say that it is one.


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## alsih2o

Piratecat said:
			
		

> No. If we are going to have this conversation, we are NOT going to ascribe motivations to people that we haven't actually met. It is absolutely possible to tell a racist joke without being racist, or a sexist joke without being sexist. Please don't label other people with absolutes.
> 
> I can accept "It feels like people like..."  No one can argue with how you feel. But it's far from established as a fact, Clay, and it's not fair to say that it is one.





 my apologies, i was basing that information on the vitrolic emails i recieved from mythusmage yesterday. that was unfair.

 i will limit my end of the discussion to statements everyone has had access to


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## MerakSpielman

I get the feeling that Jeff Foxworthy's redneck jokes are funny because - accurately or not - he considers himself to be a redneck. Just like the only people who can really pull off racial jokes are people of that race. Oddly, either gender can tell jokes about men or women and it's still funny.


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## diaglo

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> Oddly, either gender can tell jokes about men or women and it's still funny.




what would Cousin It do?


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## Piratecat

Tell jokes about barbers.

It's worth pointing out that above and beyond the specific thread, we're hearing what you guys are saying. We'll continue to evaluate each problematic thread on its own merits before deciding what to close. Thanks for the feedback.


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## DaveMage

diaglo said:
			
		

> what would Cousin It do?




Make fun of "Thing"?


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## Mark

alsih2o said:
			
		

> ...how many X to screw in a light bulb can be funny because we all knwo it takes only one.




My X wouldn't even do _that_ much around the house... 




			
				diaglo said:
			
		

> what would Cousin It do?




I didn't notice your bracelet under all of that hair...


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## Gnarlo

diaglo said:
			
		

> what would Cousin It do?




Date dwarf women.

Damn, I _hate_ working back to back double shifts, you miss out on all the good fights that way. And y'all know how us rednecks like a good fight.


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## KnowTheToe

Being offended at at the word redneck is like McDonald's being offended about the term McJob.  Names shouldn't hur people.  My closest friend growing up had CP and hated words like retard and cripple.  When hearing them he would get angry and feel hurt.  Being a good friend I wanted to help him, so jovially I called him cripple and retard and gimp and other horrible names.  Now when people use these terms, it does not faze him and he can still interact positively with them and stay in emotional control.  If any dumb red... need help with this, I have experience.

I thought the thread was funny, real funny, but if people were upset then I guess it is not that important of a thread and should have been shut down.  Did I mention, I thought the thread was hilarious, especially the staff being a 2x4 with nails.


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## MerakSpielman

KnowtheToe, this has been mentioned before, but nobody has the right to go around saying what should and shouldn't offend people. If somebody is offended by something you say, it's your fault, not theirs.


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## KnowTheToe

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> KnowtheToe, this has been mentioned before, but nobody has the right to go around saying what should and shouldn't offend people. If somebody is offended by something you say, it's your fault, not theirs.





Actually each individual is responsable for their own actions and reactions.  I have a strong sense of self and choose to not let the negative words of anyone effect me.  I assume the best of people and their intentions and believe I smile and laugh a lot more because of it.  You are right, that we should be aware of others feelings, so there is some shared responsability, but I choose to be in control of my emotions instead of allowing other people to pull my strings.


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## MerakSpielman

Are you saying that other people should be more like you? And if they're not, it's their own fault?


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## KnowTheToe

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> Are you saying that other people should be more like you? And if they're not, it's their own fault?





Now that you mention it, it might not be a bad idea.  Yea, that is what I officially think.  Me or Homer Simpson, that way peple have a choice.


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## MerakSpielman

Well, all right then. Not my place to argue with your official opinion. I do have to say that I'm glad you're not in charge of the boards. I like this place nice and civil, and I like the mods enforcing a rather strict set of rules of interaction. It's what makes EnWorld stand out compared to other message boards.


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## tburdett

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> KnowtheToe, this has been mentioned before, but nobody has the right to go around saying what should and shouldn't offend people. If somebody is offended by something you say, it's your fault, not theirs.



Absolutely not. No. Never. Each and every individual is responsible for their own emotional reaction to any situation. You are in control. If you CHOOSE to give up control because someone else says or does something that you do not like, it is your own fault.

As an example, I have involved myself in more than one thread here at EN World knowing that I would possibly be sanctioned for what I said.  I accepted that I was responsible for what I was typing and that any punishment that I received was due to my own actions.  That is personal responsibility.  Learn it, live it, do not fear it.


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## KnowTheToe

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> Well, all right then. Not my place to argue with your official opinion. I do have to say that I'm glad you're not in charge of the boards. I like this place nice and civil, and I like the mods enforcing a rather strict set of rules of interaction. It's what makes EnWorld stand out compared to other message boards.




I agree with you.  I said that since people were offended that the thread is not imporatant and should be shut down.  I have been asked and have changed my username once and my avatar,  I didn't care, I thought it funny that people were offended with my original login, but what are you going to do?

I love the fact that these boards are so civil, clean and safe.  It is why I come here.


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## MerakSpielman

tburdett said:
			
		

> Absolutely not. No. Never. Each and every individual is responsible for their own emotional reaction to any situation. You are in control. If you CHOOSE to give up control because someone else says or does something that you do not like, it is your own fault.



Some people have more control over their emotions than others. Some people are easily frightened, cowed, embarassed, or angered. Some people are easily seduced. Some people have absolutely no control over their emotions at all.

It's not for you to say how people should feel and react. You control your own words and actions. It's your responsibility to be considerate. Any emotional reaction triggered by your words and actions is your fault - your actions have an impact on the people around you, whether you like it or not.


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## MerakSpielman

Out of curiosity, what was your original login and avatar?


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## KnowTheToe

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> Some people have more control over their emotions than others. Some people are easily frightened, cowed, embarassed, or angered. Some people are easily seduced. Some people have absolutely no control over their emotions at all.
> 
> It's not for you to say how people should feel and react. You control your own words and actions. It's your responsibility to be considerate. Any emotional reaction triggered by your words and actions is your fault - your actions have an impact on the people around you, whether you like it or not.




You have to admit a minimum of shared responsability.  You have no way of knowing all of the emotional weaknesses that you may encounter in any given individual.  They could be food sensative, filled with grief, addicted to something, filled with self loathing, the potential is endless.


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## KnowTheToe

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> Out of curiosity, what was your original login and avatar?





Cameltoe was the login
The original avatar (used with my current login) was the logo on this shirt


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## Desdichado

MerakSpielman said:
			
		

> It's not for you to say how people should feel and react. You control your own words and actions. It's your responsibility to be considerate. Any emotional reaction triggered by your words and actions is your fault - your actions have an impact on the people around you, whether you like it or not.



There's a difference between being considerate and constantly walking on eggshells.  Not that I'm making any commentary on the specific case this thread is about; just speaking generically.  I consider myself a relatively considerate and thoughtful guy most of the time, but I do have a tendency towards bluntness and direct speech that occasionally comes across as hard and unfeeling.  While I recognize that I sometimes inadvertently offend people this way, I also tend to wonder what the heck is wrong with blunt or direct speech sometimes.  In any case, I certainly don't agree that any emotional reaction triggered by my words and actions are my fault.  In fact, that goes quite against the conventional wisdom that I teach my kids all the time: any emotional response I feel to anything is _my_ issue and mine alone.  _I'm_ responsible for how I react to things, not the person who prompted the reaction.


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## MerakSpielman

KnowTheToe said:
			
		

> You have to admit a minimum of shared responsability. You have no way of knowing all of the emotional weaknesses that you may encounter in any given individual. They could be food sensative, filled with grief, addicted to something, filled with self loathing, the potential is endless.



You're right, people have weird foibles. You never know what will offend them. The general rule of thumb is to not bring up religion, politics, or sex, all of which are forbidden on EnWorld more or less for this reason. If I trigger one of those individuals hot topics, I will apologize for offending them. That's me taking responsibility for my actions. Then, if they are polite, they will generally say, "no, it's all right, you didn't know" but as far as I'm concerned they don't need to, since I consider it to be my fault and I couldn't blame them if they didn't want to talk to me any more.


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## DaveMage

I think the real issue here (and in all conversations) is "respect"--not so much who should or shouldn't take offense.

EN World (usually) is a place where we respect other's thoughts and opinions.  To me, THAT is what makes this such a special place.  

I would hope that each of us would be respectful of fellow posters here, especially when it comes to that which could be personally hurtful.  

(However, if you don't like being respectful, well, that's what Nutkinland is for.     )


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## MerakSpielman

Good point DaveMage. Respect. Always treat others with respect, as far as I'm concerned, no matter what.


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## the Jester

While I agree that _adults_ have the responsibility to control their reactions to the words of others, not all kids have yet developed this trait.  

Remember, there are kids here too.  You can't expect them to react maturely to everything that is said, so you have to do your part to avoid causing offense.


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## Crothian

Place a little trust in mods.  So far I've never seen them do much wrong and I think it's a little childish to start threads to complain about a thread being closed.  This really should have dealt with e-mails.


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## mythusmage

alsih2o overreacted.

Henry overreacted and reacted hypocritically, insofar as he had contributed to the list prior to shutting it down.

Somebody is going to take offense to anything you say, no matter what it is. Not all complaints will have validity and you need to learn the difference between those complaints that are valid, and those that are not. 

In no wise and at no time was the thread an attack upon any group, or a call to bring harm to any group. And alsih2o knows this. I don't know what brought the tirade on, but I strongly doubt it had anything to do with the thread, the thread was only a target for an anger caused by something else. alsih2o's behavior was uncalled for, and he knows it.

Now, if I had started a thread entitled, "...You Might be an Orc Wizard" _with the same jokes_ would anyone have complained? What if the thread had been, "...You Might be an Al Queda Wizard"? But since it included a real world group somebody feels himself to be a part of, and an oppressed part of, things went bad.

alsih2o has shown himself to be without honor, and so is now on my ignore list. Were Henry not a moderator he too would be on my IL. But since he is a moderator I need to be aware of what he says when he is acting as a moderator.

Except for alsih2o every self-identified redneck who posted to the thread had nothing bad to say about it. A couple even chided alsih2o on his rant. Hell, there are people out there who would call yours truly a redneck, considering my socio-economic situation and current living conditions. The fact alsih2o assumed I was some sort of elitist attacking 'lesser' creatures tells me more than I care to know about him, and shows me he is not worth my time. Not because he might be a redneck, but because he has convinced me that he is a common bigot.

In the greater scheme of things the thread in question was utterly inconsequential. It threatened no one, advocated nothing. Had one person used a lick of sense before writing about it, it would've had its day and then passed into history. As it stands now he has alienated me, and given another a reputation he will have to work hard to overcome.

To make this short, in my considered opinion it would be best were alsih2o to take some time off from these forums, to review his life, and those elements in his life which caused his outburst. And then, when the review is done, to make those corrections as are necessary to set his life right. In other words, he needs an oracular lumberectomy, and soon.

That is my say on the matter.


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## Darrin Drader

Oh the woes of political correctness! Rather than place legal limits on freedom of speech, instead we use social forces to do exactly the same thing. I am utterly against the notion that we must walk on eggshells to avoid offending someone else'a delicate sensibilities.

Personally I refuse to be PC. I am firmly in the freedom of speech camp, even if this speech sometimes offends. There are some religious groups (that I am not naming) that I have less than no respect for and feel that the world would be better off if they didn't exist. There are certain cultural groups (again, I'm not naming them) that I feel have no redeeming values and go to great lengths to stay away from. We all have these biases, but some of us don't like to admit to it. I do admit to it rather than being a hypocrit about it and I don't think this makes me a bad human being. If I say something potentially offensive, then it is up to the individual in question to decide whether or not to be offended. 

On the other hand, I do realize that there is a responsibility that goes along with freedom of speech and if I offend someone with no control over their emotions or their fists, I just might get decked.


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## Umbran

mythusmage said:
			
		

> alsih2o overreacted.




That's a matter of personal opinion, of course.  



> Henry overreacted and reacted hypocritically, insofar as he had contributed to the list prior to shutting it down.




Ah.  I see here we have a man who has never, in his entire life, done a thing and then thought better of it.  Or done a thing, then learned more information and figured that a different course was better.  Always done the right thing on the first time, hm?  Gee, I'm glad your house doesn't have any glass in it, mythusmage, 'cause you're doing a pretty good job of chuking stones about.

It is very, very easy to criticise the people who have to make decisions when you yourself don't have the responsibility for making those decisions.  It is easy to get annoyed at others for not taking chances when you yourself don't have the needs of a whole community in your lap pushing you to err on the side of caution.


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## Dinkeldog

Consider this your "warnin'".  No more insults and accusations.  I'd also recommend against congratulating yourself for being better than other people.  There's invariably something at which you're not as good.


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## Mark Chance

So what about me volunteering to decide who deserves to be offended? I could be sort of an anti-moderator.


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## jdavis

mythusmage said:
			
		

> alsih2o overreacted.
> 
> Blah blah blah.........



Who overeacted here? The guy who didn't like your rude thread or the guy who put up two threads complianing that his silly little thread was closed and e-mailed somebody to chide them for their lack of a sense of humor. Good grief put me on your ignore list too as I wasn't really offended by the first thread but I am offended by your incessant whining about it being closed. I mean really you are getting all bent out of shape because your silly little redneck thread got closed????? Get a life man maybe you need to take some time away and rethink things. It's not that big of a deal, several people complained and the thread got closed it happens every day around here get a grip and get over it. Better yet fly to Alabama and try your comedy stick there and see who gets insulted and who gets sent to the hospital.

As far as the redneck thread being insulting well it is insulting to hundreds of thousands of people who live in the south. Redneck is a derogatory term, it's a insult used to describe poor people in the south, so if you start a thread with a insult in the topic of it then you shouldn't be suprised when somebody gets offended. Who is responsible well you are, throw out all the pschobabble about it's the persons responsibility to ignore it or not be offended, good grief, if the evil "N" word had been used then nobody would be suprised if the thread was shut down or if people got offended, it's a derogatory term. The term redneck was created for the express purpose of offending people, it's intended use is as a insult, how can anybody be suprised when it fufilled it's created purpose and somebody was insulted. 

I don't care if Jeff Foxworthy says it all the time, for one he is insulting himself, for two he is a professional comedian in a professional setting, and three (most important) he's not posting his comic routine at EN World. When the thread did start offending some people at EN World then it was time for it to go. Yes if one person complains that they are insulted by a thread then it should be looked into, this is a community, it's supposed to be a family atmosphere, we are supposed to be trying to get along here, if you use a derogatory term and somebody gets offended then that's the end of the discussion, it's a derogatory term to start with. 

Just for the record I love free speech and I despise political correctness, it's not the use of the word redneck that bothered me, heck use it all you want, but this is EN World not the general public. We are tied to a stricter standard here. We are supposed to be family friendly, if people are offended by it then it has no place here because we are not here to offend people we are here as a community to discuss D&D related topics. When you start to feel this place get tiresome or restrictive then head for Nutkinland and let 'er rip (when EN World gets on my nerves I go lurk in Bad Fur Day myself, no need to post just reading the people go at it lets off plenty of steam and gives me a good laugh). But maybe when your posting here you should use a little thought before throwing around derogatory terms, and make no mistake about it redneck is a derogatory term.


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## jdavis

Mark Chance said:
			
		

> So what about me volunteering to decide who deserves to be offended? I could be sort of an anti-moderator.



 It's a role you have definatly earned


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## Darrin Drader

jdavis said:
			
		

> I don't care if Jeff Foxworthy says it all the time, for one he is insulting himself, for two he is a professional comedian in a professional setting, and three (most important) he's not posting his comic routine at EN World.




By the logic of point 2, should people not get offended at Andrew Dice Clay since he is a professional commedian in a professional setting?


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## mythusmage

Umbran said:
			
		

> Ah.  I see here we have a man who has never...




Put me on your ignore list, that way I won't be able to hurt your hot house sensibilities. You will be on mine.


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## mythusmage

jdavis said:
			
		

> Who overeacted here?




Put me on your ignore list. You shall be on mine.


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## the Jester

Baraendur said:
			
		

> By the logic of point 2, should people not get offended at Andrew Dice Clay since he is a professional commedian in a professional setting?




By the logic of point 2, people offended by Andrew Dice Clay should flip the tv channel, since when you watch the Diceman you damn well ought to know what you're letting yourself in for.  

If you come to ENWorld, do you generally expect to have your ethnicity/religion/whatever attacked?  I don't, and that's one of the things I like about this place.  If I have to choose between watching my posts and being responsible about what I say around here and having ENWorld devolve into a constant bickering/spitting match, well, I'll keep doing exactly what I've done all along- trying to be courteous, respectful and polite to my fellow members of this community.

Mythusmage, frankly, has a bad habit of posting things that piss people off.  He's done it before, he'll probably do it again, and I've yet to see him be at all remorseful.  I don't recall him ever apologizing to the people he's offended- hell, this time he's telling them, essentially, "Since you can't appreciate my sense of humor, why don't you get outta here?"

Frankly, Alan, if you can't see that what you're doing is hurtful to the community, maybe _you're_ the one who needs to take some time to reevaluate things.  Like, maybe if your socioeconomic status and living situation are so bad you should take your ol' com-pu-tar down to the hock shop and get fiddy bux for it and spend it on more moonshine.

...now, see, look at that last paragraph; it's unkind, rude and uncalled for.  I apologize, and truly hope nobody's offended; but you know what?  I don't think I'll take it out, because _it needs to be said._  Alan, grow up and be a little more considerate towards others, please.  If one of my threads gets shut down because it offends someone, the first thing I do is post an apology.  

Not two threads bitching about how everyone else is at fault for my posts.


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## Dinkeldog

Okay, so the warning wasn't heeded and the thread is being closed.  Just for the edification of the person who thought I was talking all about him, think again.  I'd run out of fingers if I tried to count everyone that I was hoping would heed the warning.


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