# A German in America



## Jürgen Hubert (Apr 7, 2008)

I'm currently staying in Columbus, Ohio, for a two month scientific exchange. If you would like to know how a foreigner experiences your nation, take a look here.

Feel free to correct any mistakes on my part!


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## trancejeremy (Apr 7, 2008)

That's an interesting read.

1) Not all grocery stories have bagboys.  I think some do because of unions, but probably most places, it's the checker that does it, and sometimes the checkers who aren't checking out do it.  And some places you have to bag it yourself.  Most places also let people use their own bags if they want (most sell them), but almost no one does. 


2)  Sales tax, our version of VAT depends not just from state to state, but county to county and city to city (each usually has their own paw in the till).  And in some places (usually by state), food is exempt from it (but not cooked food).


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## Polyhedral_Columbia (Apr 7, 2008)

An interesting read!



			
				Jürgen Hubert said:
			
		

> Feel free to correct any mistakes on my part!




The only mistake I noticed is where you wrote "bride" instead of "bridge". Also, what you call VAT is called "sales tax" here.

I empathize with your surprise and frustration at the lack of sidewalks and pedestrian access to bridges. In this regard, America is insane. The byways of America are made for machines, not human beings.

Best wishes on your visit.

Travis


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## drothgery (Apr 7, 2008)

If you're wondering why about the real reason there are grocery store baggers in the US, and not in contental Europe, it's actually kind of simple and esoteric at the same time. The minimum wage is lower here. So it's cost-effective to hire baggers. At minimum wage in Germany, it's not.


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## drothgery (Apr 7, 2008)

TraverseTravis said:
			
		

> I empathize with your surprise and frustration at the lack of sidewalks and pedestrian access to bridges. In this regard, America is insane. The byways of America are made for machines, not human beings.




It's not insane. It's a natural side effect of a cities (or at least suburbs) that grew up after cars became common, rather than before. And cars became common 20 years earlier in the US than in Europe.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Apr 7, 2008)

TraverseTravis said:
			
		

> I empathize with your surprise and frustration at the lack of sidewalks and pedestrian access to bridges. In this regard, America is insane. The byways of America are made for machines, not human beings.




So true.

I had the opposite experience when I moved out to Britain a few years back and was able to walk places. Ever since I moved back to the States, it kills me that its kind of a 'walk at your own risk' situation, and that's disregarding the fact that places are just so far apart walking isn't viable.

Course, now I'm down in St. Augustine and this place is designed for walking. Roads are almost too small for cars. I love it, and its nice to know that there's at least one haven like this in the States...though so many tourists on the streets makes walking interesting, at least you can walk everywhere...


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## DarkKestral (Apr 7, 2008)

Jurgen, I'll be posting here because I can't post on LiveJournal. 

ATMs are designed not to carry high denomination bills; such bills attract thefts and scamming risks. Banks operate under the assumption ATMs are better for getting small sums quickly, while tellers are for pulling out large sums or complex transactions where a human element is good as a safeguard, needed to explain the process, or to deal with people unable to use an ATM. Full bankers with their own offices are for people with really complex needs, who are opening/closing accounts, or making investments with the bank.

By the way, a lot of old houses in the Midwest are inspired by early- to mid-1800s German architecture, AFAIK, because that's when the area (as well as Ohio, I believe, though I really wouldn't call it Midwestern ordinarily) was settled initially, and many of the settlers were Germans and Eastern Europeans. And, a lot of that style of architecture remains around university campuses, because universities in the Midwest tend to be concentrated in the oldest sections of the cities that aren't commercial. Not sure how much it's the case elsewhere. They also tend to be fairly upscale as the neighborhoods near universities are usually pretty safe, the neighbors are usually well-paid professors and their spouses, residents (for obvious reasons) overwhelmingly tend to value education highly so the local primary and secondary schools are usually good quality, and they're often close to cultural attractions such as museums.

Whole Foods: totally recommended, as far as chain grocery markets go, especially if you're GMO conscious. Bit expensive though. If you're not GMO or hormone conscious, I'd still go to a regular grocery store unless you need a specialty item you can't find in the regular groceries. Many of the produce products in Whole Foods are the same as the ones in regular stores, so you are often paying a premium for the same product. And good grocery stores are now beginning to stock a fairly large array of organic and GMO free products, from cleaning agents to produce.

Stores hire baggers because they're faster than the customers or a checker at bagging, which is a major benefit during rush periods such as Black Friday and the Christmas season, as they can significantly raise throughput and thus sales. A lot of them are also checkers, stockers, and cart guys when they're not bagging, so it's kind of a default "we have all of our other jobs taken care of at the moment, so go help the customers" sort of job, because it visibly helps the customers without being terribly intrusive or being the sort of customer "service" that people associate with outsourced call centers. Managers also tend to act as baggers or checkers, if only because it lets them watch the checkers and ensure they aren't stealing from the till without having to be idle. It's also a guard against scammers and people trying to forge counterfeit checks.



			
				Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> So true.
> 
> I had the opposite experience when I moved out to Britain a few years back and was able to walk places. Ever since I moved back to the States, it kills me that its kind of a 'walk at your own risk' situation, and that's disregarding the fact that places are just so far apart walking isn't viable.




Being from a city which is usually either #1 or #2 on the Sierra Club's list of cities with the worst urban sprawl, I am usually frustrated by this. I like walking places, as it's the only way I can build a mental map of a place. There are certain sections of the city where walking from place to place is a possible strategy, but there aren't that many, and even then, most of them are unfriendly to walkers.


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## Chimera (Apr 7, 2008)

DarkKestral said:
			
		

> ATMs are designed not to carry high denomination bills; such bills attract thefts and scamming risks. Banks operate under the assumption ATMs are better for getting small sums quickly, while tellers are for pulling out large sums or complex transactions where a human element is good as a safeguard, needed to explain the process, or to deal with people unable to use an ATM.




Having once serviced ATM's, I feel I can address this.

ATMs are convenient places to get small to medium amounts of cash.  Some banks have and/or still have limits of perhaps $250 per day that can be withdrawn through ATMs, which serves mostly to protect the customer from theft and fraud.

The typical ATM is loaded only with $20 bills, because this is the most common currency in circulation and the largest bill that most establishments care to deal with.  Cash tills do not have slots for larger bills and the preponderance of counterfit bills tends to be higher in the larger denominations.  A stupid, lazy or distracted clerk taking a fake $100 and giving real change can hurt a business, whereas you're not likely to get a bunch of fake $20s.

The typical ATM also carries only one kind of bills.  While a few carry more (I serviced some with 10's and 20's, some with 5's and 20's, but not many), the risk is that the tech will reverse the cartridges and give the wrong bills.  This hurts the bank on both ends, having to reimburse people who got five 5's when they asked for $100, losing $45 when somebody figures it out and asks for $15 so they actually get $60.  While I never made this mistake, my partner was once accused of it, until we found out that it was actually another company's machine service tech who worked on it.  They had to reimburse something like $2500 for that guy's mistake!

The other side of it is the risk in loading the machine.  Some of the riskier neighborhoods we serviced would have older machines that were hand-loaded with cash.  We'd typically put $16-20,000 in them, and for that we were kneeling in front of the open machine in an open and active establishment in a bad neighborhood, with $20,000 in CASH in our hands.  We had a couple of very close calls at those machines!  (My partner and I once refused, refused a second time and again a third time "even if we get fired" to service a machine at a tax refund place in a nightmare neighborhood, where they wanted us to put $340,000 cash into the machine!  Because ONE GUY would be in the place on his own loading the machine with enough money to cause a riot.)

But most machines have cartridges which are pre-loaded and sealed.  We just pulled the old one out and put the new one in, and told the machine how much money it was.  But even then, you're walking around with $30-$60K, which can be risky.

Theft of entire ATMs is also not uncommon.  On my last job working for a University, someone broke into one of the buildings, at a door not covered by a security camera, loaded up and drove off with the whole ATM.  The loss was claimed to be $34,000.


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## HeavenShallBurn (Apr 7, 2008)

Round these parts a guy used a skid-steer loader to scoop up one of the large ATMs built into a bank wall and drive off with it one night last year.  They still haven't got any clues as to who actually did it.  Left a nice big opening in the side of the bank.


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## kenobi65 (Apr 7, 2008)

A few other thoughts and notes:

- As has already been noted, the biggest denomination that's generally circulated is the $20.  You can certainly get $50s and $100s at a bank (and the $100 is about the biggest bill that you typically see circulated *at all*), but you don't see them often (and some smaller stores may not even accept them, because of concerns over counterfeiting).  For a bigger transaction, most people will use a credit or debit card (which may not help you much here), write a check (also probably not much help), or, occasionally go to the bank to get a stack of $100s.  IME, those three options map pretty well onto age: many younger people use their plastic for *everything*, and some older people only like to deal with hard currency.

- Whether or not an area is easily "walkable" often has a lot to do with (a) when the neighborhood was first built (older neighborhoods almost always have sidewalks), and (b) if the area in question is purely residential (more likely to have sidewalks), or is more commercial (less likely to have sidewalks, especially if first built in the 1960s or later).

- Sales tax not only varies by state, but by area within a state (individual cities and counties can tack their own taxes on top), and different types of purchases may be under different tax rates, depending on where you are (prepared foods is an example of something that's often not taxed at the same rate).  As you figured out, the tax is almost never included on the price listed on the menu / price tag / whatever.

- Some restaurants do post their menu outside the door, but, from what I see, that's more typcial in urban areas that get a lot of foot traffic.  For instance, I work in downtown Chicago, where foot traffic (both workers and tourists) is pretty heavy, and most of the "sit-down" restaurants do this.

- Re: Wendy's.  Welcome to American fast food.  Believe it or not, among fast-food places, Wendy's is actually known for offering "healthier" choices.


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## Villano (Apr 7, 2008)

> There seems to be an ongoing religious war over here about what constitutes "real pizza". One of my flatmates, who comes from the Northeastern USA, favors Italian-style pizza, which is flat and has a strong crust - the type familiar to most Germans (thanks to a large Italian immigrant community). The other flatmate, who hails from further west, prefers American-style pizza, which is far thicker and has a more cake-like consistency.




I guess you're right about the "real pizza religious war".  I was kind of shocked that you referred to deep dish, or Chicago style, pizza as "American style".  If you say "pizza", most Americans think of the Italian kind.  

So, when you are talking to Europeans about American pizza, be sure to say that we have real pizza and also a deep dish concoction that people in the midwest strangely call pizza (but those people are crazy!).


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## kenobi65 (Apr 7, 2008)

DarkKestral said:
			
		

> (as well as Ohio, I believe, though I really wouldn't call it Midwestern ordinarily)




I dunno; I've been a Midwesterner all my life (Wisconsin and Illinois), and I consider Ohio to be Midwestern -- it's the eastern most Midwestern state, true, but I definitely think it's Midwest.

Jurgen, you probably realize that you're in a city that's a bit atypical, because it's (a) a state capital, and (b) a big college town.  College towns (especially the areas around campus, particuarly if it's an older campus) tend to be very pedestrian-friendly, and have a different feel from a town or city of comparable size that doesn't have a college campus in its midst.


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## kenobi65 (Apr 7, 2008)

Villano said:
			
		

> I guess you're right about the "real pizza religious war".  I was kind of shocked that you referred to deep dish, or Chicago style, pizza as "American style".  If you say "pizza", most Americans think of the Italian kind.
> 
> So, when you are talking to Europeans about American pizza, be sure to say that we have real pizza and also a deep dish concoction that people in the midwest strangely call pizza (but those people are crazy!).




Hey! 

Yes, there are some significant variations in pizza across the U.S., and people can get very, well, enthusiastic about the debate on the relative merits.  (For more fun, get people from different areas to argue about what should be put on a hot dog, or what is the best kind of barbecue sauce.)

Most of the variation in pizza styles boils down to:
- How thick the crust is (and the consistency of it)
- What order the toppings are put on top of the crust
- What sort of toppings get put on

Deep dish is also called Chicago-style, and it certainly started here, although we have thin-crust pizza here, too (that's what I prefer, in fact).  True Chicago-style deep-dish has the toppings put on (in "assembly order", from bottom to top) as cheese, then the meat and / or veggies, then the crushed tomatoes / tomato sauce. 

New York style typically has a thin (but soft) crust, and the toppings (meat and / or veggies) are often put on *on top of* the cheese, whereas the thin-crust pizza in many other areas is done with the cheese on top of the meat / veggies.


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## Jürgen Hubert (Apr 7, 2008)

Villano said:
			
		

> I guess you're right about the "real pizza religious war".  I was kind of shocked that you referred to deep dish, or Chicago style, pizza as "American style".  If you say "pizza", most Americans think of the Italian kind.




Well, when it is sold in Germany at all, it is almost always referred to as "American pizza", since the one almost all Germans are familiar with is the Italian kind (thanks to the large Italian immigrant population). The other variety is a much later import from the USA, hence the name.


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## drothgery (Apr 7, 2008)

kenobi65 said:
			
		

> I dunno; I've been a Midwesterner all my life (Wisconsin and Illinois), and I consider Ohio to be Midwestern -- it's the eastern most Midwestern state, true, but I definitely think it's Midwest.




While true, parts of upstate NY and much of Pennsylvania is culturally rust belt (pretty much wrap around the great lakes from Buffalo to Milwaukee, with a splotch heading out to Pittsburgh), which I tend to think of a 'midwestern'. Of course, I'm originally from Cleveland suburbia...


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## DarkKestral (Apr 7, 2008)

kenobi65 said:
			
		

> I dunno; I've been a Midwesterner all my life (Wisconsin and Illinois), and I consider Ohio to be Midwestern -- it's the eastern most Midwestern state, true, but I definitely think it's Midwest.




The problem is I'm from farther west, but it's an "edge" state, so I can see your point. The problem is trying to define the geographical boundaries of the region; Past the Rockies, certain cultural shifts happen to clearly define the "west", but it's a bit harder to define when you're talking about the region east of the Mississippi and west of the Appalachians. There's a sort of blending that occurs, with a bunch of different regions being all mashed up at times.


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## smootrk (Apr 7, 2008)

The nomenclature on regions of the US is mind-boggling, especially to one who has lived on the west side of the Mississippi river most of his life.... everything over on the east side of that river constitutes 'east coast' to me...  point being - as a German, don't try to analyze the regions, because they don't make much sense unless one studies the early migrations of the American settlers (from European descendants).


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## MrFilthyIke (Apr 7, 2008)

> The kitchen in this house also has a "food disposal unit", whose task it is to shred any food that ends up in the sink. I've never seen such devices back in Germany (where you are supposed to put such food leftovers into the bin for organic waste), and I'm looking forward to seeing this device in operation.




This comment made me laugh.  I've never looked at that device from a "fresh" perspective...it is kinda fun to play with. 

edit: Whole Foods is a great place to shop, I like it myself.


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## Crothian (Apr 7, 2008)

MrFilthyIke said:
			
		

> This comment made me laugh.  I've never looked at that device from a "fresh" perspective...it is kinda fun to play with.




The torture of it is going from growing up with it and then to a place where they aren't that common.  

Welcome to Columbus Jürgen!!


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## ssampier (Apr 8, 2008)

Love the blog. I like reading different perspectives on life (especially things we take for granted).

I knew a few foreigners that worked at Lake Powell marina with me. I think the foreigners gained a very skewed perspective of American life by working at a National Recreation Area; people are on their worst on vacation. Plus the area was quite remote, so some foreigners were confused why the U.S. is a technology leader, but yet there were no Internet Cafes for miles around.


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## morbiczer (Apr 12, 2008)

I find the observation about the ATMs to be the strangest. Here in Hungary ATMs give out all sorts of bills, usually up from 1000 forint (~5-6 dollar) to 10.000 (~50-60 dollar) or even 20.000 (~100-120 dollar). (That's the highest bill we have.)


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## Mark (Apr 14, 2008)

Is Columbus almost as big as Urbis?


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## Aurora (Apr 14, 2008)

Welcome to Ohio!


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 14, 2008)

Hey Jürgen!

I'm an army brat who has lived all over the USA and at one point used to live in Stuttgart. I've been back to Europe a couple of times- most recently Russia in 2005.  Its refreshing to see the personal- not media- European perspective on the US once in a while.

I was reading about your view on public transportation.  I agree- Europe has done a great deal better about public transportation than we have- here you find the best public transport in the big eastern and western cities.  There are exceptions, though.

However, there is a dark side.  It can lead to a certain complacency.

My original home town of New Orleans had a pretty good public transportation system, and it had a population around 600k.  It was possible to live your entire life there without driving.  Unfortunately, the downside of that was seen when Katrina hit.  Many people didn't evacuate because they simply _couldn't._

As for the ATMs- I can't speak to Europeans' experiences with them, but here in the US, there was a huge rash of gun/knifepoint robberies at them for a decade or so.  Some people started calling them Mug-O-Matics.  Eventually, the banks put in security cameras and reduced the amount you could withdraw, both in amounts and denominations, and that particular crime wave crested and receeded.


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## dontpunkme (Apr 14, 2008)

Both New York and Chicago-style pizza are garbage.  Sheer utter filth that should only be fed to stray dogs.  If you want a true pie, come to New Jersey, home of the tomato pie.  

And depending on where you are, some areas of the US have a tremendous amount of quality bakeries that can really make a good loaf (unfortunately, I've yet to  discover a place that can make Irish brown bread).

And yeah, nothing can top the 1900 calories that is the Baconator at Wendys.  Your full daily allotment of calories (and they serve it with a soda and french fries).

And yes, American city design is definitely different from European standards.  Take a tour of Washington D.C. and you'll realize the city was designed using a spriograph.  And they're so uncreative they have multiple 3rd avenues, 4th avenues, etc, and they do not believe in labeling the streets in many of the circles.  (This was done strategically so an invading army would be confused.) 

You're articles were definitely interesting.  It's always entertaining to hear people from different countries take on the US.


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## D.Shaffer (Apr 14, 2008)

I'd just like to state I've been enjoying your entries.  It's always interesting to see a different take on various things you get used to, even if they're not QUITE par for the course for your area.  I'm a NJ boy myself, for instance.


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## GentleGiant (Apr 21, 2008)

Regarding ATMs (advice from a fellow European who has been to the US a couple of times):
I don't know if German banks have the same rules as Danish ones, but just in case they do... don't use an ATM unless it's an emergency!
Use your VISA card instead (most places take them and you really should get one if you don't have one)!
I found out that if I wanted to withdraw cash from an ATM I had to pay and extra 3% of the amount withdrawn to my bank back home in Denmark. Whereas if I used my VISA card I didn't pay anything extra (same as with buying things over the internet). Although 3% doesn't seem like much it quickly adds up.
Now, since our VISAs are debit cards, we can't get cash back from stores, so to obtain cash I would just pay stuff (like groceries) for some of my US friends with my card and they'd give me the cash instead. That way I'd always have reasonable amounts of cash on me without paying the extra ATM fee.

Cars
Americans really love their cars... just be glad that you're in a large city. My first visit was to a town a bit further south from where you are, Huntington, WV, and boy oh boy did they love them some pick-up trucks!  
Another thing about about cars (and weather) that you're not going to experience, but I'll mention it anyway since it fits in with your observations about the US... people in LA seem to be mystified (and terrified!) of this thing called precipitation... more specifically, rain.
I watched in disbelief as a drizzle caused the entire freeway system through LA to slow down to a snail like pace. A trip that on any other day would take 20 minutes on the freeway, now tooks us 3 HOURS (I'm not kidding, the trip really took 3 hours and 10 minutes from "home" to where we were going - Santa Monica to Inglewood)!
They just seemed so unused to this strange phenomenon that most of them didn't know how to drive on a slightly wet freeway.


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## HeavenShallBurn (Apr 21, 2008)

GentleGiant said:
			
		

> I watched in disbelief as a drizzle caused the entire freeway system through LA to slow down to a snail like pace. A trip that on any other day would take 20 minutes on the freeway, now tooks us 3 HOURS (I'm not kidding, the trip really took 3 hours and 10 minutes from "home" to where we were going - Santa Monica to Inglewood)!
> They just seemed so unused to this strange phenomenon that most of them didn't know how to drive on a slightly wet freeway.



That's an LA thing, I've never seen rain even near monsoonal rain you get during a tropical storm slow down traffic in any other city I've been in.  But LA?  It's like a drop hitting the pavement causes mass hysteria.  Sometimes I wish they'd just accidentally nuke that part of California so nobody would have to deal with it again.


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## Jürgen Hubert (Apr 22, 2008)

Sorry for not checking back on this thread for a while. But now there's news.

First of all, I've added a new entry of observations.

Furthermore, I've created a little YouTube video as my commentary on American bread. Please take it in the humorous spirit as it was intended - I don't want it to cause a flamewar as it did on other forums (people living outside the United States will probably find it funnier than Americans...).

I will post some replies to the other posts that have accumulated here later in the evening.


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## GentleGiant (Apr 22, 2008)

HeavenShallBurn said:
			
		

> That's an LA thing, I've never seen rain even near monsoonal rain you get during a tropical storm slow down traffic in any other city I've been in.  But LA?  It's like a drop hitting the pavement causes mass hysteria.  Sometimes I wish they'd just accidentally nuke that part of California so nobody would have to deal with it again.



Oh it's definitely an LA thing, I think I made that clear.   
I did experience the other type of rain, the tropical storm kind, and it DID slow the traffic down, pretty much no traffic was to be found.
Driving up from Florida in late January (back in '04) a friend and I hit the backside of a tropical storm just as we got to Jacksonville.
I had never seen anything like it (and haven't since)!
2-3 inches of water standing in the road everywhere just from the downpour and visibility down to 20 yards tops. It was crazy and we turned around and drove out of the storm again to try circumventing it. Managed to cross over the state up there and then up through the western part of Georgia... where we ran into a massive fog instead! Crawling pace on the freeway until we managed to spot a Red Roof Inn sign by the side of the road.
So, from 80 degrees (26 degrees C) in the shade in Florida to a tropical storm, then an immense fog and finally snow as we went up through Tennessee and Kentucky the next day... not exactly the kind of weather you experience on most trips through Europe.   
Good thing we didn't drive the way back up we did down there, through the Carolinas, since they were covered with several inches of ice from an ice-storm.


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## HeavenShallBurn (Apr 22, 2008)

GentleGiant said:
			
		

> Oh it's definitely an LA thing, I think I made that clear.



Wasn't arguing just pointing out that you don't really see that reaction elsewhere. 


> I did experience the other type of rain, the tropical storm kind, and it DID slow the traffic down, pretty much no traffic was to be found.  Driving up from Florida in late January (back in '04) a friend and I hit the backside of a tropical storm just as we got to Jacksonville.
> I had never seen anything like it (and haven't since)!



Little hyperbole on my part, things do slow down, but not like LA.  Though in Tropical Storms a lot of people stay off the roads, not sure why.  I've never had any trouble with that weather, but I learned from the start.  Also you passed right by the area where I was raised by the bases near Jacksonville.  


> 2-3 inches of water standing in the road everywhere just from the downpour and visibility down to 20 yards tops. It was crazy and we turned around and drove out of the storm again to try circumventing it.



  See I'll drive through that sort of weather at about 50mph given no traffic snarls to slow me down.  Then again I'm crazy, that's the only explanation for a drinking game involving half a bottle of vodka, 3 porkchops, a broken 2x4, and an alligator.


> Managed to cross over the state up there and then up through the western part of Georgia...



  Sorry to hear about it, foreigners shouldn't be subjected to Georgia, in fact I'm not sure anyone but Georgians should be subjected to Georgia.  The smell did wash out of your clothes though didn't it?


> not exactly the kind of weather you experience on most trips through Europe.



Really I'm sorry you had to pass through Georgia, not that it helps.  And it might be good to put up some warning signs or something.  But at least they don't live on *your* border


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## Chimera (Apr 22, 2008)

If you want to see life come screaming to a halt, you should see snow in South Carolina.

Back in Jan or Feb 1988, I was in Columbia when it snowed.  Me from Minnesota, with my little Mazda pickup with the Minnesota plates.  The minute it started coming down, they sent all of us home from work.  It was coming down in big, slow flakes, but melting and vanishing right above ground.  Everyone on I-95 was on the right shoulder, driving 10mph.  I'm in the left lane, doing freeway speeds.  Muahaha!

Later that evening, my neighbor came to me in a panic, asking me to drive him across town to where his wife was in the hospital.  He knew I could handle the 6" of snow that was on the ground by then.  Along the way, I only saw ONE other vehicle on the road - a cop.  I think he was utterly amazed to see me.  My neighbor was wide-eyed with shock in the passenger seat, surprised that the snow didn't phase me or hinder us in the least.

The entire city was shut down for a week.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 22, 2008)

Having lived both in the North and the South...

Yes- in the South, a few inches of snow is cause for alarm, if not outright panic.  The cities- not to mention the people themselves- aren't equipped to handle the weather.

OTOH, in the North, you get heat stroke advisories at 85degF (29degC).  I was taking a nap in my car at that temp today- and no, I wasn't in the shade.


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## billd91 (Apr 22, 2008)

HeavenShallBurn said:
			
		

> That's an LA thing, I've never seen rain even near monsoonal rain you get during a tropical storm slow down traffic in any other city I've been in.  But LA?  It's like a drop hitting the pavement causes mass hysteria.  Sometimes I wish they'd just accidentally nuke that part of California so nobody would have to deal with it again.




Having driven some in LA while on vacation, I have at least one theory about this... Unlike rational areas of the US, where the highway lanes tend to line up with the slabs of pavement that make up the highway, plenty of the freeways in LA seem to be built with the slabs of pavement running across the lanes at a diagonal. Why is this significant?
When it's raining, particularly at night, the lane lines tend to be hard to see but you might still see the seam between the lanes. When they don't match the lane marker, you tend to lose where you are in the road. I found this very disconcerting when driving in the rain after dark in LA.


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## billd91 (Apr 22, 2008)

drothgery said:
			
		

> It's not insane. It's a natural side effect of a cities (or at least suburbs) that grew up after cars became common, rather than before. And cars became common 20 years earlier in the US than in Europe.




It's not merely natural. Auto companies definitely had their hand in promoting the use of cars and emphasis on cars in city planning as well as investing in rail and companies that produced the rolling stock to completely undermine and dismantle them. Rail-based public transportation actually shrunk as a result. Now, we're looking at ways to reintroduce more rail to reduce pollution and traffic congestion.


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## billd91 (Apr 22, 2008)

You are right that a lot of cities are wasteful in neighborhood planning, or at least have been. THere is a growing movement to go back to the old school of neighborhood development with higher densities of residences and businesses to help reduce the need for excess paving of roads and reduce the amount of driving people need to do.
There are now political struggles going on between developers of sprawling neighborhoods with more space per home, which a lot of people like because it gets them more out into the "country" (as long as too many people don't follow them), and the higher density urban planners on appropriate land use and growth strategy.
For a very long time, space was a resource the US simply HAD. Sprawl wasn't a serious problem because there was still plenty of space to grow into. In some places, that's still the case, but with rising energy costs it's no longer always the most important factor.


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## drothgery (Apr 22, 2008)

billd91 said:
			
		

> It's not merely natural. Auto companies definitely had their hand in promoting the use of cars and emphasis on cars in city planning as well as investing in rail and companies that produced the rolling stock to completely undermine and dismantle them.




FWIW, this is almost entirely an urban legend.


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## drothgery (Apr 22, 2008)

billd91 said:
			
		

> For a very long time, space was a resource the US simply HAD. Sprawl wasn't a serious problem because there was still plenty of space to grow into. In some places, that's still the case, but with rising energy costs it's no longer always the most important factor.




Sprawl is not a real problem, and is the natural consequence of a wealthier populace with access to better transportation. It was caused by better carriages and rail before cars and freeways, and happens everywhere geography or government regulations do not prevent it. Most families with children prefer less-dense housing. They will get it if they can afford to do so and keep their jobs.


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## Jürgen Hubert (Apr 23, 2008)

drothgery said:
			
		

> Sprawl is not a real problem, and is the natural consequence of a wealthier populace with access to better transportation. It was caused by better carriages and rail before cars and freeways, and happens everywhere geography or government regulations do not prevent it.




Well, Europe was lucky because it already had a very high population density before the car was invented. Thus, sprawl is not nearly as pervasive there as in the USA, and most settlements are a lot more compact which keeps travel distances down.

As a result, Europe is able to withstand gas price increases much better than the USA - because there is little sprawl, there are actually real alternatives to cars possible.


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## billd91 (Apr 23, 2008)

drothgery said:
			
		

> FWIW, this is almost entirely an urban legend.




Depending on whom you believe, that is. I may have to get ahold of Edwin Black's latest on it (published in 2006). Sounds interesting.


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## drothgery (Apr 23, 2008)

Jürgen Hubert said:
			
		

> Well, Europe was lucky because it already had a very high population density before the car was invented. Thus, sprawl is not nearly as pervasive there as in the USA, and most settlements are a lot more compact which keeps travel distances down.
> 
> As a result, Europe is able to withstand gas price increases much better than the USA - because there is little sprawl, there are actually real alternatives to cars possible.




Suggested reading: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0226076911

Suffice to say that to the degree that there's less sprawl in Europe today than in the US today, it's almost entirely due to government regulation.


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## Jürgen Hubert (Apr 23, 2008)

drothgery said:
			
		

> Suggested reading: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0226076911
> 
> Suffice to say that to the degree that there's less sprawl in Europe today than in the US today, it's almost entirely due to government regulation.




Well, I don't quite buy this, but I will have a look at it. While European cities also have their suburban belts, they've always had the problem that existing communities were already in place, and so new neighborhoods had to be built around them. So the lots for individual houses turned out to be a lot smaller, and the streets a lot narrower. So they made maximum use out of them:

- The houses mostly have two or three floors, plus a basement.
- The garages were often directly built as closely to the street, skipping the long driveways.
- The sidewalks were built next to the street without being separated by a strip of greens.
- Instead of filling the rest of the lot with one big expanse of green, it's traditionally filled with a mixture of hedges, trees, and gardens, thus maximizing its use and making it appear larger.

Even well-off families often live like this. And I really don't think we are missing out in terms of life quality just because we don't have an American-style sprawl - quite the contrary.


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## Aries_Omega (Apr 23, 2008)

I want to say first...I normally don't read blogs. I am not interested in what a person thinks of toast. Your blog on the other hand is VERY interesting and a pleasure to read. I do have a few comments though.

LA and California with rain. Yes...we are scared of it. Most of California is a desert...at least southern California is. You want a real treat...snow in the South, like North Carolina and especially in northern Virginia, near Washington DC where I live. Northern Virginia's seem to think that because the state of Virgina is a Southern state and sided with the Confederacy during the Civil War (or as some schools still call it the "War of Northern Aggression") that they are somehow magically immune to getting snow. When the news says we have a storm coming and we are getting snow it seems that EVERYBODY goes out and prepares for Armageddon. I am an Army veteran and was stationed in Colorado. Knowing what snowfall is truly like I find this behavior hilarious. What we get is insignificant compared to what I have seen and considered a "normal winter".

If you ever get to make it out to this area you'll see some interesting things. We have lots of museums and monuments being that it's the capital of the country and all but you will see what I call an odd study in contradictions. Being not a native of the area I found how things contradicted each other here. We have the metro rail system and great bus schedules here but we also have some of the worst traffic problems here then I have ever seen. You see a lot of "eco-friendly" business and stores here but they don't use said public transportation or even carpool because "I make enough money to drive in and pay for parking". It's about a 50/50 split if they drive a hybrid or some kind of gas guzzler. Had one guy said he why he drove this thing...I want to say he said it was a Unimog is because he could afford it and wanted to show people he had money and that he was an environmentally conscious because he is driving the same thing he drove when he volunteered to do disaster relief in Europe. Sad thing is he had a metro stop two blocks away from his store. I have nostalgia for things I drove long ago that I have good memories of but you won't see me driving around in a humvee or even worst some street legal version of the M3 Bradley even if it would make traffic easier.


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## Jürgen Hubert (Apr 23, 2008)

Aries_Omega said:
			
		

> If you ever get to make it out to this area you'll see some interesting things.




Well, I am currently contemplating where to go for my week of vacation in the first week of June. Washington DC and NYC are at the top of my list, but I haven't decided to which of those I will go...


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## Villano (Apr 24, 2008)

NYC, no doubt (of course, I used to live there, so I'm probably biased).


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## DarkKestral (Apr 24, 2008)

I'd say it probably would depend on your wishlist of "things to do," as NY has more entertainment (theaters, major shopping areas, and things like that) related tourist spots while Washington has more historical and politically related tourist spots. However, it's not entirely universal. So look around, see what interests you, then go there.


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## DarkKestral (Apr 24, 2008)

Jurgen: those flags involved in digging, the utilities DO keep maps. The problem is simply that the stuff underground occasionally moves, so the maps aren't always correct. the actual pipes and lines can be a meter or two off from where the lines are expected to be, so they come out and find the actual location after consulting the map.

And sadly, yeah, we don't have centralized health care. That's probably likely to change sooner or later; a major part of the presidential race has involved candidates stating their positions on how to create a national health care system that rewards preventative care properly while also paying for emergency care appropriately. However, the pharma companies complain that under such a regime, they'd be forced to go under as apparently "Europeans don't pay enough to account for the companies' R&D costs." (Am I correct in my guess Germany has capped prices on pharmaceuticals?) This may or may not be true, but they're MAJOR lobbyists, and they seem to promise cushy jobs to any ex-Congress critter if they're willing to go back as a lobbyist. So they have some significant power. Frankly, if it was an issue, I'd expect their profits to be lower, but eh..


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## cignus_pfaccari (Apr 26, 2008)

Dannyalcatraz said:
			
		

> Having lived both in the North and the South...
> 
> Yes- in the South, a few inches of snow is cause for alarm, if not outright panic.  The cities- not to mention the people themselves- aren't equipped to handle the weather.




In Western Kentucky, where I'm from, we have a lot of bad roads that become nearly unpassable with a half inch of snow.  Great fun.

Brad


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## Thunderfoot (Apr 27, 2008)

drothgery said:
			
		

> While true, parts of upstate NY and much of Pennsylvania is culturally rust belt (pretty much wrap around the great lakes from Buffalo to Milwaukee, with a splotch heading out to Pittsburgh), which I tend to think of a 'Midwestern'. Of course, I'm originally from Cleveland suburbia...



NY? Pennsylvania - Midwest? - HAHAHAHA! As a born and bred Heartland Illinois boy, (that's that area WAYYYYY down south right in the corner between Missouri, Kentucky and Arkansas - there isn't a New Yorker born I would even CONSIDER to be Midwestern and Pennsylvania, though pretty and definitely less urban and snobbish than the rest of the Mid-Atlantic North-Eastern states is a far cry from the Midwest.

I may live in Maryland now, hon, but I am a Midwestern boy trough and through y'all.


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## Thunderfoot (Apr 27, 2008)

DarkKestral said:
			
		

> <SNIP>
> And sadly, yeah, we don't have centralized health care. That's probably likely to change sooner or later; a major part of the presidential race has involved candidates stating their positions on how to create a national health care system that rewards preventative care properly while also paying for emergency care appropriately. However, the pharma companies complain that under such a regime, they'd be forced to go under as apparently "Europeans don't pay enough to account for the companies' R&D costs." (Am I correct in my guess Germany has capped prices on pharmaceuticals?) This may or may not be true, but they're MAJOR lobbyists, and they seem to promise cushy jobs to any ex-Congress critter if they're willing to go back as a lobbyist. So they have some significant power. Frankly, if it was an issue, I'd expect their profits to be lower, but eh..



God I hope not.  As an American that spent three lovely years in Germany, I will say there are a lot of things I miss about that country, the food, the beer, the food, the beer, the history, the beer.  Health care isn't one of them, standardized, yes, efficient, ehhh, stone aged technology, right on!  Complain about the cost all you want, but while centralized health care may be cheaper, you get what you pay for and that isn't much.


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## Thunderfoot (Apr 27, 2008)

Ok, enough commenting on others post, let me drop some of my own.  What is really interesting is that you describe the public transportation systems and ask why they aren't better developed.  I would agree except that distance between some of our cities is larger than all of Europe combined.  As someone that grew up in the middle of nowhere, a walk to the store was a 15 mile trip.  The entire time I spent in Europe, I was never 15 miles from anywhere unless you count the times I was hiking in the Alps and even that was probably not true.

Living in Augsburg, I could catch the 'StraBe' to the hauptbahnhof and then ride the train to anywhere and possibly use an U-bahn if it was available, even if I were to go to a small town outside of a large city.  In the town I grew up in, there are no rails, no buses, no taxis, heck in some places the roads aren't even paved. The nearest 'city was a 15 minute drive away and the nearest airport is 2 and a half hours in St Louis Missouri (that's a whole 'nother state over.)  I hate to bring this up, especially with you being German and please understand this is only because its a historical reference, but during WW II we had a POW camp for Nazi prisoners just outside of my hometown.  The reason was because the prisoners were flown or shipped to New York, put on a train for 3 days to get to the midwest, put on a truck for 3 days and dropped in the middle of nowhere with the sole purpose of demoralizing them because even if they escaped, there was nowhere for them to go. (Again, I apologize for the example, but it does clearly illustrate my point.)  Unlike Europe, there are still largely open areas of undeveloped land in the middle, and while the coasts may say Green is Good and Gas is bad, tell that to someone that has to drive 45 minutes to pick up a major appliance or 20 minutes to go to the grocery store; cars aren't a luxury they are a necessity.

As for the trains honking when passing though a town, you'll probably find that there is a crossing within 1/4 mile of your location.  It is US transportation law that interstate rail transportation honk to warn pedestrians and vehicles within 1/4 mile of a crossing - when you are passing through towns, that's fairly often.  Also, small intracity trains honk too, but their warning distance vary by city, even subways honk when approaching platforms in some cities.

Your swimming story cracks me up, as an American who was in Europe I was always trying to figure out how many Kilometers was in a mile (Roughly 3.3 by the way) so you had quite a workout if you went 1 mile. 

The flags vary by state too - In Maryland you have to have the ground surveyed 24 hours prior to the dig after which they place flags that stay up during the duration of the construction and then are moved.  It might be that this is the case (new or scheduled construction on the horizon) in Columbus, but having never lived there, I wouldn't be able to confirm this.

BTW Lyndon LaRouche is a nut job.  

I always thought it was weird that Europeans said ground floor then first floor, I mean, the ground floor IS the first floor.  Hmmm?


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## WhatGravitas (Apr 27, 2008)

Thunderfoot said:
			
		

> ...how many Kilometers was in a mile (Roughly 3.3 by the way)



Huh?
1 km = 0.62 miles
1 mile = 1.61 km

I have to know, I'm a German living in the UK! (though I usually approximate with 1 km ~ 2/3 mile and 1 mile ~ 1.5 km).


			
				Thunderfoot said:
			
		

> I always thought it was weird that Europeans said ground floor then first floor, I mean, the ground floor IS the first floor.  Hmmm?



Not if you see "floor" as that flat thin plane of concrete/wood/whatever construction... The ground is the ground, the first floor is the first floor (as in constructed thing to stand on). 

(and if you look at the German word for "floor" as in first/second/third a.s.o. floor, it's "Stock" or "Stockwerk" - sharing a root with works like "aufstocken" - which means "to add on", "to extend something" [build.], or "to ramp sth. up").

Cheers, LT.


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## GentleGiant (Apr 27, 2008)

Thunderfoot
I don't know which measurements you normally use, but a mile is 1.6093 kilometers, so Jürgen would only have been doing 60% more lanes than usual, not 3.3 times as many.   

Also, I'd like you to point out where in the US the distance between some of your larger cities is greater than all of Europe combined...
Besides, I'm pretty sure Jürgen primarily meant transportation within cities.
From my experience, even smaller cities (circa 50,000 people I think my best example had) are laid out as what I would describe as... "sprawling."
City planning could definitely have been done better (granted, the same is true about some European cities). However, the problem a lot of cities face is, of course, what to do with the layout already in place.
People value the freedom to go anywhere anytime they so desire and a car facilitates that, the question is whether it's necessary to take the car when your travel distance is fairly limited. People take their car everywhere, even when it's easily within biking or walking distance.
You drive to work, then if you go out for lunch you take the car, even if the diner is just two blocks down the road. Better public transportation could mean that you have a whole designated downtown area that is virtually free of cars, where, if you live outside the city, you drive to the outskirts and then take public transportation (or ride a bike) into the city proper. It would create safer and healthier cities, save on gas/oil, provide health benefits for those who chose to walk/ride a bike... all at a lesser expense than what it costs in gas for everyone now.


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## ssampier (Apr 27, 2008)

I like that idea; speaking as a small town dweller that hates parking in the city. I've taken a few city buses in my day; slow and inefficient.


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## Morrus (Apr 27, 2008)

Jürgen Hubert said:
			
		

> Well, I am currently contemplating where to go for my week of vacation in the first week of June. Washington DC and NYC are at the top of my list, but I haven't decided to which of those I will go...




I've been to both, and each has far more stuff than you'll need to fill a week.  So flip a coin - you'll have a good time whichever way it lands!


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## drothgery (Apr 27, 2008)

Thunderfoot said:
			
		

> NY? Pennsylvania - Midwest? - HAHAHAHA! As a born and bred Heartland Illinois boy, (that's that area WAYYYYY down south right in the corner between Missouri, Kentucky and Arkansas - there isn't a New Yorker born I would even CONSIDER to be Midwestern and Pennsylvania, though pretty and definitely less urban and snobbish than the rest of the Mid-Atlantic North-Eastern states is a far cry from the Midwest.




Pittsburgh and Buffalo are, at least in my experience, most definitely in the same cultural swath as Cleveland, Chicago, Detroit, and Milwaukee. New York City and Philladelphia most definitely are not (and are more logically grouped with Boston and DC). That Buffalo and NYC are in the same state, and so are Pittsburgh and Philladelphia, tends to confuse the issue.


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## kenobi65 (Apr 27, 2008)

GentleGiant said:
			
		

> \Also, I'd like you to point out where in the US the distance between some of your larger cities is greater than all of Europe combined...




New York to Los Angeles: 2778 miles
Seattle to Miami: 3359 miles

Even some less extreme examples:
New York to St. Louis: 951 miles
Chicago to San Francisco: 2133 miles

Even staying on one coast:
New York to Miami: 1297 miles
Seattle to Los Angeles: 1136 miles

Now, I'm no expert on European maps, and I'm sure you could find some longer trips in Europe, but here's a couple of driving distances for comparison:

London to Vienna: 915 miles
Stockholm to Barcelona: 1737 miles

(All mileage from Mapquest)


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## GentleGiant (Apr 28, 2008)

kenobi65 said:
			
		

> New York to Los Angeles: 2778 miles
> Seattle to Miami: 3359 miles
> 
> Even some less extreme examples:
> ...



Obviously, if you do cross country measurements then they're larger than across Europe. The North American continent is much larger than the European continent.
However, I took it to mean that there were major cities which were located farther away from other (i.e. nearest) major cities than the distance across all of Europe. As far as I can see on Google Earth, that's not the case.
But, again, what Jürgen has been talking about seems to be public transportation in cities, not cross country.


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## kenobi65 (Apr 28, 2008)

GentleGiant said:
			
		

> However, I took it to mean that there were major cities which were located farther away from other (i.e. nearest) major cities than the distance across all of Europe. As far as I can see on Google Earth, that's not the case.




Ahh...yes, adding the word "nearest" makes it a different discussion. 



			
				GentleGiant said:
			
		

> But, again, what Jürgen has been talking about seems to be public transportation in cities, not cross country.




That varies widely from city to city.  Some bigger cites have very good, very extensive public transportation systems.  A lot of them don't.  (And, yes, particularly if large parts of the city and suburbs were built after WWII, when cars became ubiquitous, it can get very sprawly, and hard to navigate if you're limited to public transportation.)  If you live far enough outside of a major city, public transportation may be nearly (or completely) non-existant.


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## HeavenShallBurn (Apr 28, 2008)

I'll chime in to confirm this, while quality of mass transit in cities is variable the area occupied by the rural areas between them is far greater despite its sparse population.  There are regions larger than entire European nations where public transportation is simply non-existant.  No bus stops though you may occasionally see a Grayhound pass through, plenty of train tracks but all freight lines with no stops or stations even if they did carry passengers.  Where the nearest store is 15 to 20 miles away and you make trips to it every three weeks or so, go into the nearest city maybe once every three to four months.

I would like to point out though that the RURAL population of the US is equal to the entire population of the UK.  So even though far more people live in the major metropolitan areas the rural population is big.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 29, 2008)

IME, the biggest misperceptions Europeans have about the USA is they underestimate its sheer size.  I've encountered a few who wanted to see the Statue of Liberty, the Grand Canyon, and the Golden Gate Bridge on a 1 week road trip.

OTOH, we Americans tend not to understand the sheer depth of European history.  It can be mind boggling to realize that some small dorf has a "new" city hall that is older than our country.


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## kenobi65 (Apr 29, 2008)

Dannyalcatraz said:
			
		

> OTOH, we Americans tend not to understand the sheer depth of European history.  It can be mind boggling to realize that some small dorf has a "new" city hall that is older than our country.




Very true.  I remember eating in a cafe in Salzburg, Austria, that had been continuously operated since, IIRC, the 9th century.


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## Jürgen Hubert (Apr 29, 2008)

Dannyalcatraz said:
			
		

> IME, the biggest misperceptions Europeans have about the USA is they underestimate its sheer size.  I've encountered a few who wanted to see the Statue of Liberty, the Grand Canyon, and the Golden Gate Bridge on a 1 week road trip.




Yeah, I know where that idea comes from. I mean, I am currently contemplating a weekend trip to Harbor Springs, Michigan, which is "only" the next state over - but it will still take a very long time to get there (especially without a car of my own)...



> OTOH, we Americans tend not to understand the sheer depth of European history.  It can be mind boggling to realize that some small dorf has a "new" city hall that is older than our country.




From a recent conversation:

Flatmate: "So, is the RWTH Aachen an old university?"
Me: "No, it's one of the younger ones... which is to say, it was founded in the late 19th century."

Oh, and Aachen itself was founded 1900 years ago by the Romans when they discovered the hot springs in the area...


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## drothgery (Apr 29, 2008)

Jürgen Hubert said:
			
		

> Yeah, I know where that idea comes from. I mean, I am currently contemplating a weekend trip to Harbor Springs, Michigan, which is "only" the next state over - but it will still take a very long time to get there (especially without a car of my own)...




(looks this up on mapquest)
Well, you're heading somewhere just across the lake from Canada. And it's not like there's a major airport anywhere nearby you could fly to and save time on the deal. You'll be in Michigan most of your travel time; it'll only take you two hours (according to Mapquest) to get to Toledo and the Ohio-Michigan border.

(doing a little poking around on Google Maps)
If Google Maps does its math in a comprable way to Mapquest, its a similar-length drive from Aachen to Prague (I tried Paris, Zurich, and Berlin first, but they were too close).


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## nerfherder (Apr 29, 2008)

Dannyalcatraz said:
			
		

> IME, the biggest misperceptions Europeans have about the USA is they underestimate its sheer size.  I've encountered a few who wanted to see the Statue of Liberty, the Grand Canyon, and the Golden Gate Bridge on a 1 week road trip.



The two biggest surprises I had when I first visited the US were:
1) how important and different "States" are - the different laws and taxes, etc.
2) how nice everyone was (ok, I'm discounting NYC, as that seems to be an aberration!).  Seriously, you guys are all so friendly to visiting Brits.


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## kenobi65 (Apr 29, 2008)

nerfherder said:
			
		

> 1) how important and different "States" are - the different laws and taxes, etc.




It's an interesting point, and a reminder that the full name is the United States of America.  Yes, there's a federal government, and we're one country, but the concept of "states rights", and state self-governance, is an important one.  If you trace our history back to Colonial times, remember that we were a bunch of different colonies, with different heritages, different governing structures, etc.

In addition, the country is big enough that there are definitely different regional cultures, so much so that it can feel like a different country when you go to a different part of the U.S. (heck, that used to be Texas's tourism slogan -- "A Whole Other Country" -- then again, they used to *be* a whole other country, and it still shows.)


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 29, 2008)

> 2) how nice everyone was (ok, I'm discounting NYC, as that seems to be an aberration!). Seriously, you guys are all so friendly to visiting Brits.




On the subject of friendliness, I had a similar experience with my time in Europe.

Of all the places I've been (years in Germany & trips all over Europe), the only rude people I've encountered were a solitary waitress in Austria and a lot of Parisians.

I suspect that the Austrian may have been a sympathizer with "an upended regime in a neighboring country"- she was old enough, and I've talked to other Americans who were in the area at the time.  Some actually had badges flashed at them while trekking on back roads.

As for Paris- what can I say?  Its almost as if rudeness was the city's favorite local competitive sport.  Among other incidents in the City of Lights, I watched another European (a multilingual teacher of languages- _including French_) trying to order a meal and the waitperson acted as if his French was unintelligible.  He had to have a Frenchman put in his order for him.

Aberrations, I realize, but shocking nonetheless.


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## HeavenShallBurn (Apr 30, 2008)

Dannyalcatraz said:
			
		

> the only rude people I've encountered were a solitary waitress in Austria *and a lot of Parisians*....As for Paris- what can I say?  Its almost as if rudeness was the city's favorite local competitive sport.  Among other incidents in the City of Lights, I watched another European (a multilingual teacher of languages- _including French_) trying to order a meal and the waitperson acted as if his French was unintelligible.  He had to have a Frenchman put in his order for him.



From what I've been told by a few French who were from the rural parts of the country they didn't like Parisians either.  Lots of gripes I didn't really get but from (very) limited experience and their secondhand accounts I figure Paris just has a high %$#@ole population compared to the rest of France.  It seems like Paris is the only place you get the "Your French is not Good Enough" routine on a regular basis.  Mostly other places seem to be able to deal even if you're not so hot with the language but are trying.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (May 1, 2008)

@ HeavenShallBurn: LOL.  Sounds like my experiences in NYC.

Jurgen -- Enjoying the blog.  It's interesting to get a freswh perspective on things we're already familiar with.  By all means try to check out different regions if you can, as the culture and feel of different states in different parts of the country are still distinct, despite the homogenizing brought about by mass franchising.

As to your vacation ... as someone who has lived/lives close to both NYC and DC (currently I'm about an hour's drive west of NYC), they are both an experience and quite different.  I prefer DC myself -- more open, more friendly, more historical, and cheaper, plus there are lots of nearby opportunities in Virginia and Maryland.  The Smithsonian Air & Space Museum is my favorite site in the city.  But you can't go wrong either way, as both have a wide variety of entertainment, cultural, and historical sites as well as decent public transportation (decent by US standards, that is).  If you really wanted to you could do both as DC is only about a 3-hour train ride from NYC, so a visit to the major government sites on the Mall is within a day trip.  But with a week to spend you're probably best off staying in one spot.


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## kirinke (May 3, 2008)

GentleGiant said:
			
		

> Regarding ATMs (advice from a fellow European who has been to the US a couple of times):
> I don't know if German banks have the same rules as Danish ones, but just in case they do... don't use an ATM unless it's an emergency!
> Use your VISA card instead (most places take them and you really should get one if you don't have one)!
> I found out that if I wanted to withdraw cash from an ATM I had to pay and extra 3% of the amount withdrawn to my bank back home in Denmark. Whereas if I used my VISA card I didn't pay anything extra (same as with buying things over the internet). Although 3% doesn't seem like much it quickly adds up.
> ...




Drat it. I thought it was a uniquely Austin thing. That phenomena happens here too. The minute traffic even senses a raindrop falling from the sky, there seems to be a mass braking. 

I call it the "Oh no! The Sky Is Falling!" syndrome. Drives me bats.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 3, 2008)

kirinke said:
			
		

> Drat it. I thought it was a uniquely Austin thing. That phenomena happens here too. The minute traffic even senses a raindrop falling from the sky, there seems to be a mass braking.
> 
> I call it the "Oh no! The Sky Is Falling!" syndrome. Drives me bats.



Something I noticed here in Germany (at least in Northern Germany)  is that around winter, when it first appears as if it might get cooler in winter, people drive extremely careful (and slow...)

But strangely enough, a few weeks later, when the real snow (rare) or frost (guaranteed) comes, people act all surprised and you hear from various crashes from people "surprised by the sudden winter".


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## WhatGravitas (May 4, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> Something I noticed here in Germany (at least in Northern Germany)  is that around winter, when it first appears as if it might get cooler in winter, people drive extremely careful (and slow...)



People are usually careful as long as they still have their summer tyres. Once the winter tyres are on, they think they can drive over ice! 

Cheers, LT.


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## Chimera (May 5, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> But strangely enough, a few weeks later, when the real snow (rare) or frost (guaranteed) comes, people act all surprised and you hear from various crashes from people "surprised by the sudden winter".




Every winter when it snows for the first time (or the 2nd, 3rd, 4th time, if it melts off between snowfalls), everyone has to learn how to drive on snow all over again.  Irritates the daylights out of me.  Slick snow and idiots will STILL try to pull out from an intersection, way to close to you.  Of course, their tires spin, they don't get out as fast and you have to take action not to hit them.  All too often, that's the cause of a lot of early season accidents.

Well, that and "I can drive 70mph in a blinding snowstorm.  See?  No problem at all...." (woosh, straight into the ditch)

Oh, and glass slick ice at stop signs and traffic lights.  I once went straight through a downhill light at a freeway offramp because it was a sheet of ice.  Right between two vehicles turning left.  Boy howdy, was I happy that I didn't hit anyone!

Rain?  Pishposh.  We have REAL weather!


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## Thunderfoot (May 5, 2008)

For all those that have corrected me on my metric math - kudos - thinking back it was 3.3km - 5 mi (roughly) so if you use the formula all of you have quoted. . . *blush*
What can I say, I'm not perfect.


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## Thunderfoot (May 5, 2008)

HeavenShallBurn said:
			
		

> From what I've been told by a few French who were from the rural parts of the country they didn't like Parisians either.  Lots of gripes I didn't really get but from (very) limited experience and their secondhand accounts I figure Paris just has a high %$#@ole population compared to the rest of France.  It seems like Paris is the only place you get the "Your French is not Good Enough" routine on a regular basis.  Mostly other places seem to be able to deal even if you're not so hot with the language but are trying.



So what you're saying is that NYC is the Paris of the USoA or vice versa  ... I can see that.  Having been to both, I would rather go to neither, on a slightly related note - Charles DeGaul airport is probably the worst airport I have ever been to, followed closely by JFK...


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## Hypersmurf (May 5, 2008)

Thunderfoot said:
			
		

> For all those that have corrected me on my metric math - kudos - thinking back it was 3.3km - 5 mi (roughly) so if you use the formula all of you have quoted. . . *blush*
> What can I say, I'm not perfect.




Still not perfect, too.  3.3km is closer to 2 miles than 5.

-Hyp.


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## Stormborn (May 6, 2008)

*Double Post*

Double Post.  Sorry.


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## Stormborn (May 6, 2008)

*City Planning*

One of the interesting things that I have found from not only Jurgen's blog but from other people's comments is, when seeing an American Suburb, to question the city planning.  City Planning?  What city planning?

Yes, it does happen, and the down town areas of many towns and cities are a testament to that, but once you leave that centralized area different rules take place. 

Let me illustrate by explaining the history of the area where I grew up and my parents still live.

About a century ago the area was owned by US Steel and served as the farm where the feed was grown that fed the mules that worked in the mines. When automation took over the land was sold off in large lots, primarilly to farmers - my great grandfather among them. Farms it stayed for a long time. 

When his children grew up and got married he divided up his land, after having already sold some when times were hard (and he gave some away for a church to be built), and gave it to them to build houses.  When I was a child my family own about 6 acres on which were 3 houses all occupied by family members, 2 barns, 2 green houses, and a large garage/shop.  It was also home to a small herd of cows, about 2 dozen chickens, 4 pigs, a large vegetable garden and innumerable dogs and cats. Most of the land to the north of us (towards Bessemer) was already divided into smaller suburban lots while most of the land to the south was still farm land. 

Now my parents live on the last of that property on a little more than one acre and are the exception in the area.  Everything else has been divided up and sold off.  The land to the south that was farms was bought in large chunks.  It has all been developed into acres of identical houses on streets that didnt exist 10 years ago. People living on land whose last human occupant were migratory Creek. 

Then take where I live now as another example.  I am in a large suburb of Birmingham, AL known as Hoover.  Hoover has no downtown.  The land is hilly and cut by numerous small creeks the flow, eventually, down to the Cahaba River. It has a large stretch of a commercial district along US 31 and it has neighboor hoods that grew up off of that.  Some of these were planned neighboorhoods, some not.  If you know how to look, and where, you can still see evidences of the orignal boundries between large pieces of property that were divided up and sold off.  With a little architectural knowledge you can even date these areas.  Eventually, disconnected neighboorhoods merged, larger pieces of land with one owner became dozens of smaller lots with many owners, and finally communities that had their own seperate names became one mass municipality known as Hoover. There is no grid, there aren't really even any straight roads. For a long time it was part of unincorporated Jefferson County.  As a municiple entitity its not very old at all. 

I knowthe story is the same in other places. The communities grew up organically. There were no city planners because there was no city government to do any planning.  Large chunks of land were claimed or bought cheap when land was cheap and was sold off in pieces when it got more valuable.  Eventually these small pieces organized into something, sometimes in connection with a town that actually had a small grid, and became a city or town of their own.  Or several smaller towns grew together and became a city, just as organically. 

In a lot of America city planning is not poor, its nonexistant.


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