# Weapon Finesse, does Dex add to damage?



## cnath.rm

I've got a Rgr/Rog player in my game who is ripping through
things with his daggers. (aiming for the Jack of Knives Ledgendary
Class in a few levels) Even DR isn't really slowing him down.

After taking another look at the Weapon Finesse feat I'm wondering
if we have been working it wrong.  The pc's Dex bonus gets added
to attack rolls without a doubt, but should it be added to Damage
rolls?

The players is wondering as well and is willing to live with it should
it go against him (even though he built his concept on it, a really
good player) and we are running it the way we have been untill we
get it figured out.

Any help people could give or point me to would be very welcome.


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## JoeGKushner

It's pretty much right there in the text on 102 of the 3.5 PHB

"With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack roll."

The important text here is attack rolls, not damage rolls.


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## cnath.rm

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> SNIP
> The important text here is attack rolls, not damage rolls.




That's what I was thinking, I was just looking for more opinions
on it.


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## CCamfield

It's quite clear that the damage bonus still comes from Strength.


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## Arthur Tealeaf

Sorry, it is still strength that modifies the damage... I don't have my books here, but I think you will be hard pressed to find anywhere it says otherwise....


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## Ovinomancer

It only adds to the attack roll.  There is a feat that allows you to sub Dex for damage, its in Ultimate Feats from Mongoose Publishing, and I think its in the Net Book of Feats.  Its callled accurate attack.  Just subs Dex for Str for damage.  Prereqs are weapon finesse, and it only works on one selected weapon (ie dagger, rapier, etc).  Balances well, because it takes two feats to completely switch Dex for Str.  Hope it helps


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## Darklone

Ah well... ovinomancer is right except for two points. First: The damage only adds vs. opponents who are not immune against critical hits. Second (my humble opinion): It still does not balance well. I can imagine a halfing with strength 8 and dex 20 who can simply forget about strength for just two feats, possibly fighter bonus feats? No chance. Swashbuckler or similar abilities tie the damage to Int... that balances it.


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## James McMurray

Any feat or ability that swaps things around like that should be viewed with suspicion. Removing the need for mutiple decent stats for characters means they can focus on other stats more than a character without that particular splatbook could. As Darkone said, halflings become pretty nasty with that feat. They can even be better than Half-Orcs at dealing melee damage, and half-orcs certainly don't anyone better than them at that, because they're already pretty screwed.


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## Darklone

Example: Halfling fighter. Already better with Power Attack in case he has a Finessed Spiked Chain (twohanded weapon, +2 to hit vs. a human due to dex and size). Now... give him his dex bonus extra on damage (or even instead of his strength damage). He'll have easily more damage than any human WITH Weapon Specialisation. For two feats.


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## Sledge

I have to say that power attack really shouldn't be allowed with weapon finesse.  The two ideas are completely opposite.  I think that a second feat to allow dex substitution should be fine, just remember that bit about crits.  If this seems a little strong then just rule that any penalties due to str still apply.


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## Darklone

Well, if you like to have a huge majority superior elven or halfling fighters in your group... go ahead 

There wouldn't be orcs, humans nor dwarves though anymore in your world  They lost the last few wars.


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## DM_Matt

If you want a finesse fighter who is not way behind on dmg, use the Swashbuckler from Complete Warrior.  They get WF for free at first level and they get Int instead of Str to dmg at 3rd.  It still requires two separate stats, but it makes you competitive with high-str fighters without requiring the high str.  Its a pretty cool class to keep taking, but at that point you could go any combination of one or more classes such as more swashbuckler, rogue, or, fighter.


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## Coredump

cnath.rm said:
			
		

> I've got a Rgr/Rog player in my game who is ripping through
> things with his daggers. (aiming for the Jack of Knives Ledgendary
> Class in a few levels)




What book is Jack of Knives out of?

Also, your player may want to check out Invisible Blade and/or Master Thrower from the Complete warrior.

Sonofapreacherman created them, but his original was a 10 level that combined them. (It is still on his website in the original form)

Oh, there was errata on the IB requirements. The only feats are WFocus and WFinesse.


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## cnath.rm

Coredump said:
			
		

> What book is Jack of Knives out of?




It's from the Path of Shadow book from Fantasy Flight Games, I
don't have the actual book, just the Mastercraft Anthology book
they put out as samples from 10 of their books. (but would like
to snag the full book at some point.)


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## ergeheilalt

Darklone said:
			
		

> Example: Halfling fighter. Already better with Power Attack in case he has a Finessed Spiked Chain (twohanded weapon, +2 to hit vs. a human due to dex and size). Now... give him his dex bonus extra on damage (or even instead of his strength damage). He'll have easily more damage than any human WITH Weapon Specialisation. For two feats.




What would you say if a finessed weapon/improved finess (ie: Dex to damage) was incompatable with power attack. It would make logical sense - power attack relies on brut force - it shouldn't work with a slick and stab Pirouette.


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## Shadowdweller

Since most finessable weapons are LIGHT weapons, power attack already does not apply to them.


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## Plane Sailing

Darklone said:
			
		

> Example: Halfling fighter. Already better with Power Attack in case he has a Finessed Spiked Chain (twohanded weapon, +2 to hit vs. a human due to dex and size). Now... give him his dex bonus extra on damage (or even instead of his strength damage). He'll have easily more damage than any human WITH Weapon Specialisation. For two feats.




Not a good example since you need 13 Str for power attack, and with the halfling racial adjustment that means a 15 Str before adjustments paid for.

You don't see many power attacking halflings unless they are *really* focussed on their strength.


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## Darklone

Dang, right. So, we only have a str 13, dex 20 halfling against a Str 18, dex 15 human. 

With Weapon Finesse and Power Attack, the halfling is two feats behind a human (with only Power Attack), both need Exo Weapon prof... Sure, the Spiked Chain is a feat expensive weapon. 

Now, what about elven fighter wizards?


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## Tilla the Hun (work)

Darklone said:
			
		

> Dang, right. So, we only have a str 13, dex 20 halfling against a Str 18, dex 15 human.
> 
> With Weapon Finesse and Power Attack, the halfling is two feats behind a human (with only Power Attack), both need Exo Weapon prof... Sure, the Spiked Chain is a feat expensive weapon.
> 
> Now, what about elven fighter wizards?




::sigh:: third time I've seen this discussion or one similar enought to it to make no nevermind 


Consider three characters for a minute, created with identical stats, modified by race:

Human: Strength 14, Dex 14
H-Orc: Strength 16, Dex 14
Halfling: Strength 12, Dex 16


Now, all other things being equal, how does the weapon finessed halfling deal more damage than the power attacking H-orc?  Also note that both of them have an advantage over the human, either more damage or more hits.

Add in the extra feat where the halfling can add his dex instead of str for damage (but notice, it's ONLY dex, not 1.5) and the halfling matches the H-Orc for any light weapons...  or one-handed.  2-Handed weapons, the H-orc still does more damage, but not as many hits.

Elven fighter wizards shoot themselves in the foot for any medium or long term campaign with even multi-classing.

Off balance levels (1/9, 2/8) yield better returns, but now you're short on feats and HP.  Anything more balanced and you're impacting on your spell capability, both highest possible spell and spells per day.  Thus, fighter/wizard is not going to be worried about maximizing either damage or hits - at least not through fighter feats.

Right?


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## James McMurray

Tilla the Hun (work) said:
			
		

> Now, all other things being equal, how does the weapon finessed halfling deal more damage than the power attacking H-orc? Also note that both of them have an advantage over the human, either more damage or more hits.



He puts one more point into strength and gets power attack himself, then couples it with the dex to damage feat?


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## DarkMaster

Tilla the Hun (work) said:
			
		

> Elven fighter wizards shoot themselves in the foot for any medium or long term campaign with even multi-classing.
> 
> Off balance levels (1/9, 2/8) yield better returns, but now you're short on feats and HP.  Anything more balanced and you're impacting on your spell capability, both highest possible spell and spells per day.  Thus, fighter/wizard is not going to be worried about maximizing either damage or hits - at least not through fighter feats.
> 
> Right?




Assumptions, assumptions.
Off balance level yield better returns, I can give you example where this is not true.


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## James McMurray

Tilla the Hun (work) said:
			
		

> Elven fighter wizards shoot themselves in the foot for any medium or long term campaign with even multi-classing.
> 
> Off balance levels (1/9, 2/8) yield better returns, but now you're short on feats and HP. Anything more balanced and you're impacting on your spell capability, both highest possible spell and spells per day. Thus, fighter/wizard is not going to be worried about maximizing either damage or hits - at least not through fighter feats.



Eldritch Knight? Loss of feats is made up for by the gain in spellcasting ability. I'm not sure how the abilities read, but I'd be more concerned about a Swashbuckler / Wizard if we're talking about an elf. It the feat and class ability don't both say "in place of strength" then you could end up with both Dex and Int to your damage, and Dex to hit. Couple it with Arcane Strike for bonuses to hit and damage with afull round attack, Duelist for bonuses to AC and Precise Strike... Hmmm. 

Gotta go look at making a new character for Exodus (link in the sig).


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## Tilla the Hun (work)

James McMurray said:
			
		

> Eldritch Knight? Loss of feats is made up for by the gain in spellcasting ability. I'm not sure how the abilities read, but I'd be more concerned about a Swashbuckler / Wizard if we're talking about an elf. It the feat and class ability don't both say "in place of strength" then you could end up with both Dex and Int to your damage, and Dex to hit. Couple it with Arcane Strike for bonuses to hit and damage with afull round attack, Duelist for bonuses to AC and Precise Strike... Hmmm.
> 
> Gotta go look at making a new character for Exodus (link in the sig).




Heh - did that - SW/Wiz/Rog/Arcane Trickster

at around 12th level - whole party goes 'ow' when he gets a sneak attack in with his rapier 


As for adding one point - the whole idea in my example was to show two characters with identical builds.  Change one, and you've trashed the whole example.

But fair point made, just not taken as far as the example went.  I assumed straight 14's.  For you, I'll assume straight 16's (a little more unreasonable, but it'll show the point...)

Human: Str 16, Dex 16, +1 feat
H-Orc: Str 18, Dex 16
Halfling Str 14, Dex 18

Assuming straight up fighters.  All armed with spiked chains that you can apply weapon finesse to.  Assume level 3 fighters for each, again for equaling out misc. factors.

Human Feats (5)
Ex Wpn Spk Chain, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Imp Trip

H-Orc Feats (4)
Ex Wpn Spk Chain, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave

Halfling Feats (4)
Ex Wpn Spk Chain, Weapon Finesse, Power Attack, Improved Finesse

Damage ratings:
Human = 2d4 + str (3) * 1.5 = 2d4 + 4 w/ +6 to hit.
PA Human = 2d4 + str(3) *1.5 + 3 = 2d4 + 7 w/ +3 to hit

H-Orc = 2d4 + str(4) *1.5 = 2d4 + 6 w/ +7 to hit
PA H-Orc = 2d4 + str(4)*1.5 + 3 = 2d4 + 9 w/ +4 to hit

Halfling (small wpn) = 1d6 + str(2)*1.5 + dex(4) = 1d6 + 6 w/ +7 to hit
PA Halfling = 1d6 + str(2)*1.5 + dex(4) + 3 = 1d6 + 9 w/ +4 to hit.



Funny thing isn't it?  The halfling can actually match the h-orc for damage, excepting only weapon size, if he takes the correct feats...


H-Orc


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## James McMurray

If he were a Stoutheart Halfing he'd have an extra feat and be able to get weapon focus for higher average damage. Even without that you missed the +1 to hit for being small, putting the halfling's damage closer to the half-orc. MAke the halfling a swashbuckler instead of a Fighter (makes sense given the dex-based nature of the class) and he'll shoot past the half-orc because he gets to add his dex twice.

IMO halflings have so many other bonuses that they shouldn't be able to keep up with half-orcs in melee output. That's the half-orc's only schtick.


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## Barak

Not to mention the fact that everything else being equal, the halfling also gets a better AC and Reflex save.  He also has more skill points, and better CHA and INT skills (not that this matters much for fighters).  Well, the half-orc -does- have Darkvision though, so I guess it's ok.


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## Hypersmurf

James McMurray said:
			
		

> ... and he'll shoot past the half-orc because he gets to add his dex twice.




Twice?  Why?

-Hyp.


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## Darklone

Barak said:
			
		

> Not to mention the fact that everything else being equal, the halfling also gets a better AC and Reflex save.  He also has more skill points, and better CHA and INT skills (not that this matters much for fighters).  Well, the half-orc -does- have Darkvision though, so I guess it's ok.



Yupp and the half-orc grapples him with his left hand while laying the smack on the halflings buddy with his one-handed bastard sword.


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## Gort

I think power attack works fine with finessable weapons. Think of it as a "called shot".

When you make a normal attack with your rapier, you're just aiming to hit the guy.

When you power attack for 5, you're aiming for his armpit, or his head, or suchlike.

When you power attack for 20, you're aiming for his eyeball.

Works fine for me.


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## James McMurray

Sorry, that should have been "he gets to add his Int and his Dex".



> Yupp and the half-orc grapples him with his left hand while laying the smack on the halflings buddy with his one-handed bastard sword.



Not with a -20 to the grapple he doesn't.


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## Darklone

James McMurray said:
			
		

> Not with a -20 to the grapple he doesn't.



Since halflings don't use Enlarge Person that often in my game... and that half-orc happened to have rage, bull's strength and Improved grapple... and sneak attack... poor halfling duelist.


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## billd91

Darklone said:
			
		

> Since halflings don't use Enlarge Person that often in my game... and that half-orc happened to have rage, bull's strength and Improved grapple... and sneak attack... poor halfling duelist.




Which all just underlines how pointless these debates ultimately are. Anyone can come up with a build to screw over an example. At some point, it becomes trivial that it will happen.


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## Kemrain

Gort said:
			
		

> I think power attack works fine with finessable weapons. Think of it as a "called shot".
> 
> When you make a normal attack with your rapier, you're just aiming to hit the guy.
> 
> When you power attack for 5, you're aiming for his armpit, or his head, or suchlike.
> 
> When you power attack for 20, you're aiming for his eyeball.
> 
> Works fine for me.




That would work out fine if Power Attack had a Dex requirement and not a Strength requirement. Oh, and making a called shot with a big 2 handed weapon is probably a little tougher than making it with a knife.. Why not make a Power Attack-esque feat that gives the same bonus damage, based off dex, with 1x for one handed weapons and 2x for Light?

- Kemrain the Radical.


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## DarkMaster

Kemrain said:
			
		

> That would work out fine if Power Attack had a Dex requirement and not a Strength requirement. Oh, and making a called shot with a big 2 handed weapon is probably a little tougher than making it with a knife.. Why not make a Power Attack-esque feat that gives the same bonus damage, based off dex, with 1x for one handed weapons and 2x for Light?
> 
> - Kemrain the Radical.



Sneak Attack is a good example of a power attack with finesse.


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## Darklone

billd91 said:
			
		

> Which all just underlines how pointless these debates ultimately are. Anyone can come up with a build to screw over an example. At some point, it becomes trivial that it will happen.



Agreed, this was the only barbarian rogue halforc I knew who had Improved Unarmed Strike and Imp Grapple... but otherwise that build was pretty common ... as well as Enlarge and Bulls Strength.


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## Dwarmaj

There's a shotsword in Arms & Equipment that allows you to add your Dex modifier to damage instead of your strength. It's pretty pricey at 72k, but well worth it for a high level dex based character.


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## Diirk

Tilla the Hun (work) said:
			
		

> Human: Str 16, Dex 16, +1 feat
> H-Orc: Str 18, Dex 16
> Halfling Str 14, Dex 18
> 
> Assuming straight up fighters.  All armed with spiked chains that you can apply weapon finesse to.  Assume level 3 fighters for each, again for equaling out misc. factors.
> 
> Human Feats (5)
> Ex Wpn Spk Chain, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Imp Trip
> 
> H-Orc Feats (4)
> Ex Wpn Spk Chain, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave
> 
> Halfling Feats (4)
> Ex Wpn Spk Chain, Weapon Finesse, Power Attack, Improved Finesse
> 
> Damage ratings:
> Human = 2d4 + str (3) * 1.5 = 2d4 + 4 w/ +6 to hit.
> PA Human = 2d4 + str(3) *1.5 + 3 = 2d4 + 7 w/ +3 to hit
> 
> H-Orc = 2d4 + str(4) *1.5 = 2d4 + 6 w/ +7 to hit
> PA H-Orc = 2d4 + str(4)*1.5 + 3 = 2d4 + 9 w/ +4 to hit
> 
> Halfling (small wpn) = 1d6 + str(2)*1.5 + dex(4) = 1d6 + 6 w/ +7 to hit
> PA Halfling = 1d6 + str(2)*1.5 + dex(4) + 3 = 1d6 + 9 w/ +4 to hit.
> 
> 
> 
> Funny thing isn't it?  The halfling can actually match the h-orc for damage, excepting only weapon size, if he takes the correct feats...
> 
> 
> H-Orc




Except I believe you calculated it wrong.. Halflings get +1 to hit size bonus making it :

Halfling (small wpn) = 1d6 + str(2)*1.5 + dex(4) = 1d6 + 6 w/ +8 to hit
PA Halfling = 1d6 + str(2)*1.5 + dex(4) + 3 = 1d6 + 9 w/ +5 to hit.

Also being a 2handed weapon, PA should give +6 damage/-3 to hit, but that affects all these characters equally


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## James McMurray

Darklone said:
			
		

> Since halflings don't use Enlarge Person that often in my game... and that half-orc happened to have rage, bull's strength and Improved grapple... and sneak attack... poor halfling duelist.



Except that your half-orc didn't have any of that. His feats were already listed. This was a comparison of the power of a specific feat, remember?

And even with all that, the 1/2 Orc will still have to roll higher than the halfling in order to successfully grab him. +11 (str) + 4 (feat) +2 (BAB) -20 = -3. The halfling gets +2 (str) + 3 (bab) - 4 (size) = +1. You might kill him, or he might laugh at you and then kill you. But its all immaterial anyway. This thread isn't about whether 1/2 orcs can grapple halflings, its about whether the feat that applies dexterity to damage is balanced.


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## Darklone

Now you spoiled a perfect thread hijack


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## kwiqsilver

Darklone said:
			
		

> Example: Halfling fighter. Already better with Power Attack in case he has a Finessed Spiked Chain (twohanded weapon, +2 to hit vs. a human due to dex and size). Now... give him his dex bonus extra on damage (or even instead of his strength damage). He'll have easily more damage than any human WITH Weapon Specialisation. For two feats.




Except that the halfling has to use a light weapon (or rapier) to use WF and light weapons don't benefit from PA. So the two are mutually exclusive.
A greatsword and PA with high strenght deals far more damage with fewer feats. There's even a feat to allow you to deal double STR damage (instead of 1.5x) when using a two-handed weapon.


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## Tilla the Hun (work)

kwiqsilver said:
			
		

> Except that the halfling has to use a light weapon (or rapier) to use WF and light weapons don't benefit from PA. So the two are mutually exclusive.
> A greatsword and PA with high strenght deals far more damage with fewer feats. There's even a feat to allow you to deal double STR damage (instead of 1.5x) when using a two-handed weapon.




Incorrect - Spk Chain is WF allowed, and PA allowed.  Takes an extra feat, ut it works.

However, as I demonstrated above, the Hlafling is doing 'comparable' damage to the H-Orc, your mention of the feat to deal double str damage just supports that point.

The halfling has to sacrifice quite a bit to get there too.  Sure, he may have higher reflex and ac (where'd ya get the int and cha bonuses??), but a -2 str and the proper selection of feats to get there, and he'll always do less damage than the h-orc due to wpn size.

So I think I've lost track of the original point of this thread and we've bogged down into pointless formulaic arguement.  I'll be unsubscribing to this thread  as once we've gotten this far, we're into the opinion based viewpoint, and if you haven't been swayed yet, chances are you're just not going to be.


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## kwiqsilver

Tilla the Hun (work) said:
			
		

> Incorrect - Spk Chain is WF allowed, and PA allowed.  Takes an extra feat, ut it works.



What feat is that? Is it official? I tend not to allow anything from a non-wizards book, unless I've specifically approved it. Some of those guys come up with some crazy feats.


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## rtricher

cnath.rm said:
			
		

> I've got a Rgr/Rog player in my game who is ripping through
> things with his daggers. (aiming for the Jack of Knives Ledgendary
> Class in a few levels) Even DR isn't really slowing him down.
> 
> 
> Any help people could give or point me to would be very welcome.





By the way, aren't you supposed to have a free hand to use weapon finesse?
Therefore your Rgr/Rog can't dual wield the daggers. Hope that doesn't tick him off too much.


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## kwiqsilver

rtricher said:
			
		

> By the way, aren't you supposed to have a free hand to use weapon finesse?
> Therefore your Rgr/Rog can't dual wield the daggers. Hope that doesn't tick him off too much.



Not at all. But if you carry a shield it's check penalty applies to finessed attack rolls.


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## James McMurray

kwiqsilver: The feat is called Weapon Finesse. Its in the Player's Handbook.  It applies to a spiked chain. Since a spiked chain is not a light weapon, you can also apply power attack to it. By "extra feat" I believe he meant that the halfling will be getting weapon finesse for his chain, but the half-orc won't.

Tilla the Hun: The halfling will have higher int and cha than the half-orc because he doesn't have racial penalties to those stats.


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## Darklone

kwiqsilver said:
			
		

> Not at all. But if you carry a shield it's check penalty applies to finessed attack rolls.



Not necessarily true. Bucklers always give a -1 to attack rolls (with a weapon in that hand) in 3.5, even if they are mithral.


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