# HeroLab



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Mar 8, 2007)

Anyone use this program? I've been burned by Redblade in the past, but am always optimistic that there will be a good character generator (especially if it can handle templated monsters) for D20.


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## kingpaul (Mar 8, 2007)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> Anyone use this program? I've been burned by Redblade in the past, but am always optimistic that there will be a good character generator (especially if it can handle templated monsters) for D20.



From reading their boards, I don't think they can handle templates yet, but that's in the works.


PCGen can currently handle templates though.


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## 2WS-Steve (Mar 8, 2007)

For me, more significantly than templates, it doesn't handle monsters yet. Neither does RPGXplorer.

Metacreator, DM Genie, and PCGEN do handle monsters and templates.

I've been planning on putting together a comparison of all the character creators I own and posting it here to the boards.


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## Cthulhudrew (Mar 8, 2007)

Have you tried HeroForge at all? They just released a major version that has a lot of new options (including better ability to customize). 

The problem is, the new version is kind of a bear loading, at least on older machines (and, the biggest drawback, to me, is that characters saved with older versions have to be completely reworked for the new one.  )


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## catsclaw227 (Mar 9, 2007)

I'm personally a huge fan of DM Genie.  All the complaints GMs have about tracking the myriad bonuses, conditions, etc can simply go away with DM Genie.

It is quite flexible and incredibly customizable.  And there are yahoo groups to support templates, classes, monsters, feats, etc.

For pure character creation, I imagine that PCGen is better, but for actual play in game, DM Genie is awesome.  I can't imagine DMing without it.


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## meomwt (Mar 9, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> Have you tried HeroForge at all? They just released a major version that has a lot of new options (including better ability to customize).
> 
> The problem is, the new version is kind of a bear loading, at least on older machines (and, the biggest drawback, to me, is that characters saved with older versions have to be completely reworked for the new one.  )




HeroForge is now a useful tool, it can go Epic and it has some templates. I need to look at some of the other options and play with them yet. I like it, it's a great tool.


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## kingpaul (Mar 9, 2007)

catsclaw227 said:
			
		

> For pure character creation, I imagine that PCGen is better, but for actual play in game, DM Genie is awesome.  I can't imagine DMing without it.



Have you tried the GMGen plug-in of PCGen for ingame? I haven't because no one in my group has a laptop. I know some of our users have, and they like it.


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## Mercule (Mar 9, 2007)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> Have you tried the GMGen plug-in of PCGen for ingame?




Ditto.  It's one of the major reasons I decided to invest my time and energy into PCGen (I've got a lot of house rules that require data editing).  The initiative tracker, encounter generator, and xp calculator are fantabulous aids.


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## catsclaw227 (Mar 9, 2007)

Mercule said:
			
		

> Ditto.  It's one of the major reasons I decided to invest my time and energy into PCGen (I've got a lot of house rules that require data editing).  The initiative tracker, encounter generator, and xp calculator are fantabulous aids.



I like DM Genie because of the vbscript capabilities. Items, Feats, Classes and other functons can be scripted with a fairly nice object model.


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## acon360 (Mar 10, 2007)

I have to, once again, ditto the DM Genie comments...I just wish it had a better GUI. This is it's only downfall, but then again that is a lot of functionality that I'm asking to be made into a better UI.


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## Agamon (Mar 11, 2007)

meomwt said:
			
		

> HeroForge is now a useful tool, it can go Epic and it has some templates. I need to look at some of the other options and play with them yet. I like it, it's a great tool.




Can you say, "Applies Buff Modifiers"?  I never used to use my laptop as a player, only a DM.  That has changed.  We are pleased.


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## TheAuldGrump (Mar 11, 2007)

Hero Lab has a nasty licensing system - you do not buy the software, you license it for up to two computers at a time. The computers _must_ have internet access. However the license does not need to be renewed.This is an improvement over their license for Army Builder, which is renewed every year for a fee.

The D20 SRD is the only system that currently comes with the program, expansions cost money. The good news is that a portion of that goes to the publisher of the game.

More information here.

The Auld Grump


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## Anurien (Mar 11, 2007)

TheAuldGrump said:
			
		

> Hero Lab has a nasty licensing system




Otherwise known as product activation. 

We put product activation into RPGXplorer but everyone hated it so much we switched it off i.e. you don't need to connect to the internet to verify your key.


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## Allura (Mar 18, 2007)

Which do you think is the best for character creation/maintence, particularly for custom characters? Our group tends to tweak things a lot, either with house rules, things snagged from Dragon, non-WotC books, etc. Currently, we're using an excel spread sheet from "Steve," that's full of vlookups, etc. It's huge, it's unwieldy, only one player really knows enough excel/vba to tweak it, but at least we *can* tweak it. It's an awesome sheet, and very powerful, but it's not supported anymore.


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## labyrinth (Mar 19, 2007)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> From reading their boards, I don't think they can handle templates yet, but that's in the works.




Since I see you on their boards pretty regularly, I'm surprised you haven't noticed that they added templates weeks ago. Their newest release (Saturday) adds support for splitting and merging equipment very nicely. It also added integrated editing for all sorts of new stuff. The previous release added full container handling, so I can put stuff into sacks, then the sacks into my backpack, then my backpack on my hero, etc. I can then easily transfer my backpack to my horse and everything in the backpack goes with it. Very sweet!!

So you might want to refresh yourself on what they have/haven't added at this point in time.


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## labyrinth (Mar 19, 2007)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> Anyone use this program? I've been burned by Redblade in the past, but am always optimistic that there will be a good character generator (especially if it can handle templated monsters) for D20.




Hero Lab has got the best interface of any of the tools available. It's fast and reliable, which is more than can be said for quite a few of the alternatives. I've been using their Army Builder product for YEARS, and it's been a wonderful tool. Since the company has been around for a long time (10 years?) and been putting out quality products that entire stretch, I didn't hesitate to pick up Hero Lab once I played around with the demo. They're a stand-up company from all my experience with them.

I'm now using Hero Lab in two separate games, one as a player and the other as a DM. It's in-game capabilities are excellent, as I use it in-game for both of the games I'm in.

As with any new product, there are some things I'd love to see added, but it's overall a great tool. And they keep adding new stuff every few weeks! Hero Lab makes life so much nicer. And it's so much faster and easier to use than the other tools I've tried. Some people might prefer a different interface, but Hero Lab did a lot of stuff "right" for my tastes. They've got a FREE demo available, so everyone curious should take it for spin and make their own assessment.

Hero Lab supposedly supports templated monsters, but I haven't actually tried doing that myself. They've got all the templates, as far as I can tell. And they have all the monstrous races, too. I just haven't played with combining them.

One of the great things I love about Hero Lab is how easy it is to add new material. And when I've needed to do special stuff, the scripting capabilities have made it all possible (and relatively painless). It sure is a lot faster and easier for me to add my own custom material into Hero Lab than with some of the other tools I tried. 

I'm sure some of the other folks here will say that their favorite tool is easy, too. The real question that they don't address is that they have spent MONTHS (or longer) learning how to use those tools. I was creating new stuff in Hero Lab in an afternoon. For someone new to a tool, I really don't care how long it takes an expert to add something. I want to know how long it will take ME to add it. With Hero Lab, it was quick.


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## labyrinth (Mar 19, 2007)

TheAuldGrump said:
			
		

> Hero Lab has a nasty licensing system - you do not buy the software, you license it for up to two computers at a time. The computers _must_ have internet access. However the license does not need to be renewed.This is an improvement over their license for Army Builder, which is renewed every year for a fee.




How is the licensing system "nasty"? It took me less than a minute to get the product activated. And, unlike lots of other software products I regularly use, they were nice enough to include a free second license to put the product on TWO computers. So I put it on my home computer and my laptop. If I want to put it on a third computer, it will cost me a whole $10 for a third license. [I've been thinking about doing this to have a copy at work to play with at lunch.]

Also, you do NOT have to have internet access on the computer where you want to use the product. I thought I saw something about it within the product, so I just double-checked. They have what they call "manual" license activation. Basically, you can use a webpage to activate the license from one computer and copy a keyfile over to a non-internet computer to activate it.

So is your complaint effectively that you want the product to be free? If so, then use one of the free tools that are available. You'll get what you pay for. I prefer something of high quality from a company that will stand behind it. That entails that I actually part with a few dollars. I don't know about you guys, but I'm used to spending $60 on computer games nowadays and hundreds of dollars on other software I use regularly. I spend a LOT on RPG gaming stuff every year. So I don't mind spending a whole $30 for a well-written piece of software that will be highly useful on an ongoing basis. 

Maybe it's just me, but the time I spend wrestling with a tool is time I've lost. That time has a value. For $30, if Hero Lab saves me an hour over a free tool, I'm ahead of the game. Even if that hour of savings comes in 5-minute chunks of time, it's still a win for me.

Having been an Army Builder user for a long-time, I also don't find the $13 per year that they charge unreasonable. It's no different than spending $40 every three years to buy a major new upgrade to the product. Since it's the same amount of money to me, I really don't care. And if it keeps the company in business and making great software products that I can really USE, everybody wins!


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## kingpaul (Mar 19, 2007)

labyrinth said:
			
		

> Since I see you on their boards pretty regularly, I'm surprised you haven't noticed that they added templates weeks ago.



You're quoting a statement of mine that was over a week old to begin with. From their news releases, some templates were added on 2/16, more on 3/11...my post was on 3/8. So, I think my statement was, in fact, a valid one. They didn't have, at the time, complete template support, so couldn't handle templates.


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## 2WS-Steve (Mar 19, 2007)

With the recent addition of templates and monstrous races Hero Lab is something I'll start to give some real consideration to.

One thing I like is that I can enter data either via the in-game editor, or via XML files, so I'll have to see how well it handles my Second World Sourcebook stuff.


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## labyrinth (Mar 22, 2007)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> You're quoting a statement of mine that was over a week old to begin with. From their news releases, some templates were added on 2/16, more on 3/11...my post was on 3/8. So, I think my statement was, in fact, a valid one. They didn't have, at the time, complete template support, so couldn't handle templates.




So if a tool were missing, say, one template out of dozens, your definition would be that the tool "doesn't support templates"? The implication of that assertion being "not at all"? Sheesh. That's a pretty inaccurate way of portraying something, IMHO. All or nothing (aka black or white) doesn't work too well in a world that is an entire continuum of grey. 

I'll have to be mindful of this philosophy when reading any assertions made in your posts in the future. And you might want to consider the misinformation such assertions can portray to others.


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## kingpaul (Mar 22, 2007)

labyrinth said:
			
		

> So if a tool were missing, say, one template out of dozens, your definition would be that the tool "doesn't support templates"?



Let me try and lay this out more logically.

My first statement you quoted was "From reading their boards...". I skim the boards, and from what I had read, I was under the impression that templates were not supported.

When I responded to your quote, I was trying to show that you had quoted a dated post, and that from the news briefs, templates were inserted over 2 updates, the 2nd coming after my initial post.

So, no, I would not say that its all or nothing. I honestly thought it wasn't there yet.


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## TheAuldGrump (Mar 22, 2007)

labyrinth said:
			
		

> How is the licensing system "nasty"? It took me less than a minute to get the product activated. And, unlike lots of other software products I regularly use, they were nice enough to include a free second license to put the product on TWO computers. So I put it on my home computer and my laptop. If I want to put it on a third computer, it will cost me a whole $10 for a third license. [I've been thinking about doing this to have a copy at work to play with at lunch.]
> 
> Also, you do NOT have to have internet access on the computer where you want to use the product. I thought I saw something about it within the product, so I just double-checked. They have what they call "manual" license activation. Basically, you can use a webpage to activate the license from one computer and copy a keyfile over to a non-internet computer to activate it.
> 
> ...



No, the company loses! They have lost sales with their licensing, and I rather hope that the lose more. (Eight sales at least, just from my group alone, these are the folks who use computers in their character generation.) This is having the same effect, at least locally, as DRM protection on PDFs. The reaction is not 'cool, a great system!' it is 'Wow, that sounds cool, I wish it didn't have DRM, then I would buy it!' Your guess as to which is better.

I used Army Builder 2, as did everyone in my Mordheim group - my WARMACHINE group uses Armies of Immoren, a very nice, free, army builder for WARMACHINE and Hordes. None of us in my groups switched to Army Builder 3, any guesses as to why?

It is nasty because not every computer is hooked to the internet - laptops in particular. And laptops are what are most likely to appear at a games table. It is nasty because people do not want to jump through hoops to use software they have purchased. It is nasty because if your hard drive crashes you need to jump through the hoops _again_ just to use software that you have purchased. As for 'no different than a 'major upgrade every three or four years' I can name one major difference - this is on top of 'upgrading' from Army Builder 2 to Army Builder 3. We do not know yet if they will have another upgrade, but that is what I am betting on. [Sarcasm]Yay! Lone Wolf![/Sarcasm] 

I do not mind CD Keys, I do not mind needing a serial number to activate the program, but I do not want to have to jump through hoops to use software that I have purchased, and do so for _every computer that I want to use it on_.

They can go hang. If this is what you think is great merchandising then I beg to differ. And for the record - I have no pirated software on my computer, no pirated movies, not so much as a pirated MP3. So the one thing I can say about their choice of DRM is that it has kept at least one non-pirate away. Not the best way to stay in business.

The Auld Grump


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## 2WS-Steve (Mar 22, 2007)

It didn't feel like jumping through hoops to me.

I downloaded the software, put in the code, then it connected to the internet to activate and check for updates.

Since I needed to be connected to the internet anyway to download the software and get the email with the key, that extra step hardly seemed difficult.

After that, I don't need to be connected to the internet unless I want to get an update -- but, I'd need to be connected to the internet to get an update no matter what, so that's not an issue.

I've been waiting a long time for a Mutants & Masterminds and World of Darkness chargen -- and I don't think it's an accident that Hero Lab managed to finally get them to come to the table. 

I wouldn't be surprised if lack of DRM was one of the big reasons that WotC let the CMP license drop. It doesn't take a genius or even a dark heart to suspect that many gaming groups were buying one copy of a dataset then splitting the cost and sharing.


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## TheYeti1775 (Mar 22, 2007)

2WS-Steve said:
			
		

> I wouldn't be surprised if lack of DRM was one of the big reasons that WotC let the CMP license drop. It doesn't take a genius or even a dark heart to suspect that many gaming groups were buying one copy of a dataset then splitting the cost and sharing.




Wouldn't suprise me either.

But to counter your arguement, the same could be said of the groups that make 'group' purchases of books.  Single copies for the group to share.   

Yeti


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## Mercule (Mar 22, 2007)

I'll have to say that the licensing sounds a bit... off to me.  I don't really mind a single dial-in for my apps, but I got the impression that it was a bit more than that.

My general attitude is that Internet apps require the Internet.  Non-Internet apps that require access to the Internet are coding by <insert grandma-unfriendly term here>.  No two ways about it.  If the product is high enough quality (like some MS products), then I'll bite the bullet and deal with it.  It doesn't make the DRM any more right, but that factor can sometimes be overcome.

Short form, requiring online registration is an insult.  That insult affects my purchasing decisions.  I'll check out HeroLab to see if it's in the rare category of product that's worth being insulted to use.

Here's a question that would kill any interest w/o worrying about the DRM:  If I add a "dataset" for homebrew or published rules, can I easily export that dataset and give it to my players?  If not, the app is a non-starter for me.


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## 2WS-Steve (Mar 22, 2007)

TheYeti1775 said:
			
		

> But to counter your arguement, the same could be said of the groups that make 'group' purchases of books.  Single copies for the group to share.




Sharing the book, though, is legal. Also, there's decreased utility in sharing the book, whereas "sharing" a file isn't really sharing at all -- it's making a copy and distributing it, like photocopying a book and giving that to your friends.

However, you could truly share an app like Hero Lab by lending someone your laptop, and that would be fine.



			
				mercule said:
			
		

> Here's a question that would kill any interest w/o worrying about the DRM: If I add a "dataset" for homebrew or published rules, can I easily export that dataset and give it to my players? If not, the app is a non-starter for me.




The dataset is stored as an XML file or set of files and these can be popped around easily -- also a nice way to create a set of files for a particular campaign.

However, the data input is pretty monstrous, IMO even more complex than PCGEN or Metacreator. 

Here's how a simple bonus (unintuitively called an Eval Script) looks in Hero Lab:


```
container.childopt[kBalance].field[Bonus].value = container.childopt[kBalance].field[Bonus].value + 4
      container.childopt[kJump].field[Bonus].value = container.childopt[kJump].field[Bonus].value + 4
      container.childopt[kSwim].field[Bonus].value = container.childopt[kSwim].field[Bonus].value + 4
```

-- and there's something wrong with the above that's giving me a compile error, even though I copied it from some other race ability and just made a couple changes.

I think Hero Lab will be better for M&M or WoD, where I don't plan to do much customization. -- but in d20, where I have a lot of custom data I'd like to add, it's still a ways off from being useful.


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## Mercule (Mar 22, 2007)

2WS-Steve said:
			
		

> However, the data input is pretty monstrous, IMO even more complex than PCGEN or Metacreator.




Igh.  One of the big reasons I'd go to something other than PCGen is easier data input -- preferrably through a GUI.  I already understand .lst files.  The other big reason would be that PCGen abuses the memory on my poor, poor laptop and runs poopy.

So, crappy licensing, crappy customizations, (currently) no initiative tracker, no existing datasets.  Just faster.  Mmmm.... passing.


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## TheAuldGrump (Mar 23, 2007)

2WS-Steve said:
			
		

> It didn't feel like jumping through hoops to me.
> 
> I downloaded the software, put in the code, then it connected to the internet to activate and check for updates.
> 
> ...




An example - my old job had a _great_ printer. I would take my PDFs, print them at work, and drop the money for the printing into the jar on top of the computer.

I could not do that with the DRM protected PDFs, the computer at work did not have internet access, and last I heard still does not. For the same reason I could not use DRM protected PDFs I could not use Hero Labs.

Lone Wolf is also intending to sell this on CD. All it takes is one person to buy the CD and discover after purchase _that they cannot use the program they have just paid good money for._They are left dangling in the breeze, if they did not buy the CD at a con they might be able to get a refund, or they might have to get the refund in store credit.

I would rather that the publishers be the ones dangling in the breeze, the ropes creaking under the weight of hanged men.... (Okay, so I am exaggerating a wee bit there...) 

The Auld Grump


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## labyrinth (Mar 25, 2007)

2WS-Steve said:
			
		

> However, the data input is pretty monstrous, IMO even more complex than PCGEN or Metacreator.



Wow! That's not been my experience at all with the product. Since almost everything is handled through NON-script mechanisms, and the longest script I've had to write was maybe 10 lines, I've had no problems.

Most scripts I write amount to applying an adjustment to a skill, an attack bonus, or a defensive bonus. So they end up being of the form "x = x + 2". That's exactly what your code consists of. When I need to, I can easily include "if/then" blocks and "for/next" loops. Without context, the script code you posted looks strange, but it is nothing more than "x = x + 4". I had probably added more than a dozen new feats before I took a few minutes to read the documentation and figure out what the whole "container.blah.blah" stuff actually meant. And I've only needed to know what it means a couple of times when I wanted to do something non-standard. Otherwise, I've just copied an existing entry, made a few changes, and had it working.



			
				2WS-Steve said:
			
		

> Here's how a simple bonus (unintuitively called an Eval Script) looks in Hero Lab:



With regard to the naming, they used incredibly generic terms for some stuff, which I agree required a little bit of extra thinking. However, after giving it some thought, that seemed reasonable to me, because the same mechanisms have to apply to ANY game system - not just D&D. When support for Vampire comes out, it won't work to have everything wired around D&D terminology.



			
				2WS-Steve said:
			
		

> -- and there's something wrong with the above that's giving me a compile error, even though I copied it from some other race ability and just made a couple changes.



The code looks valid to me. What was the error message?



			
				2WS-Steve said:
			
		

> I think Hero Lab will be better for M&M or WoD, where I don't plan to do much customization. -- but in d20, where I have a lot of custom data I'd like to add, it's still a ways off from being useful.



My group has added a whole bunch of stuff to Hero Lab. And we haven't found it difficult at all, except for the few things we've tried to do that weren't exposed yet. But those things have since been added and we've got them working. What stuff were you trying to add?


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## labyrinth (Mar 25, 2007)

Mercule said:
			
		

> Igh.  One of the big reasons I'd go to something other than PCGen is easier data input -- preferrably through a GUI.  I already understand .lst files.  The other big reason would be that PCGen abuses the memory on my poor, poor laptop and runs poopy.



Apparently, my experience and Steve's have been a good bit different from each other. Based on my experience, I think Hero Lab is a vast improvement on both of the above counts. Since the demo is free and lets you fully utilize the editor, it's probably worth making your own assessment.


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## labyrinth (Mar 25, 2007)

TheAuldGrump said:
			
		

> It is nasty because not every computer is hooked to the internet - laptops in particular. And laptops are what are most likely to appear at a games table.



Er, you did notice that I said you do NOT need to hook your computer directly to the internet to activate the license, right?



			
				TheAuldGrump said:
			
		

> It is nasty because people do not want to jump through hoops to use software they have purchased. It is nasty because if your hard drive crashes you need to jump through the hoops _again_ just to use software that you have purchased.



I've been using Army Builder for many years. About a year ago, I lost my system to a disk crash. Restoring Army Builder was one of the easiest things to re-install. I did NOT have to go dig up the CD or the license number. I just downloaded AB from their website, then I used an option on the menu to have them email me my licenses, which arrived about 60 seconds later (just like having a forum send you your password). I then went through the license activation wizard in 30 seconds and was good to go. I just wish many of the other software products I had to re-install were as painless and easy.



			
				TheAuldGrump said:
			
		

> As for 'no different than a 'major upgrade every three or four years' I can name one major difference - this is on top of 'upgrading' from Army Builder 2 to Army Builder 3. We do not know yet if they will have another upgrade, but that is what I am betting on.



You can bet as you like, but the improvements added in V3.1 were huge, and those definitely count in my book. From talking to people from Lone Wolf at GenCon last summer, they have some similarly cool stuff planned for a V3.2 update that is supposed to happen sometime this year.

Everyone I play miniatures games with uses Army Builder because it's a great tool. Every formal tournament I play in REQUIRES the use of Army Builder because the organizers believe it's a great tool. You can make your own decisions, but there appear to be a huge number of people out there that view Army Builder as worth the investment.

Bringing this back to the topic of the thread, the way Hero Lab works is much different from Army Builder. There is no license extension model for Hero Lab. So you buy it once and you're done. The only "problem" (as you view it) is that users need to spend 60 seconds activating the license when they install the product. I'll happily "throw away" 60 seconds of my life doing that for all the time savings I gain using the product.


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## TheAuldGrump (Mar 26, 2007)

labyrinth said:
			
		

> Er, you did notice that I said you do NOT need to hook your computer directly to the internet to activate the license, right?



From the Hero Labs licensing info -
When you purchase Hero Lab, you are issued a unique license number. This license number can be used to unlock the product on a SINGLE computer of your choice. Completing the licensing wizard within Hero Lab binds the product to the computer on which the license is installed. The wizard is accessed via the "Activate License" option under the "License" menu within the product. *Licensing is accomplished via a key file that the wizard retrieves from our servers and installs on your computer.* This key file is uniquely tied to both your license and your computer, so it cannot be used with a different license or on a different computer.

So yes, you do indeed need to link to the Lone Wolf servers via the internet.

The 'improvements' made to AB3 were not worth buying a new version, let alone renewing the license every year. 

The Auld Grump


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## labyrinth (Mar 26, 2007)

TheAuldGrump said:
			
		

> So yes, you do indeed need to link to the Lone Wolf servers via the internet.



Man, you sure have an axe to grind. And you also don't seem interested in fully reading a post that you already know you'll disagree with.

I said two things in my post about the Hero Lab licensing:
(a) that users DO need to activate the license (see the last sentence)
(b) that a DIRECT internet connection is NOT required (what you quoted)

So then you quoted my comment about a DIRECT connection and "refuted it" by saying something I had never disputed.

If you intended to refute the statement you actually quoted, I just spent two minutes doing the entire license activation process WITHOUT the use of a direct internet connection. On my laptop, I ran the manual wizard. Upon completion, a file was saved on my computer. I copied it to a memory stick. I then went to my desktop machine, launched my browser, and went to the webpage the wizard told me to use. I uploaded the file from my memory stick and was given back the keyfile, which again went onto the memory stick. I copied that file to my laptop. I re-launched Hero Lab and it all worked perfectly.

You can continue to believe whatever you wish. I just feel obligated to point out incorrect information so that others have accurate data.

As for your views on Army Builder, it's a free country. Everywhere I go, Army Builder is considered an invaluable resource and the "industry standard". For a simplified game like Warmachine, I'm not sure how valuable Army Builder would be compared to a freeware tool, and your group has obviously made the best choice for its needs. I do know that no other tool comes close to AB for games like 40K, WFB, FoW, Confrontation, and a host of others.


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## TheAuldGrump (Mar 27, 2007)

labyrinth said:
			
		

> Man, you sure have an axe to grind. And you also don't seem interested in fully reading a post that you already know you'll disagree with.
> 
> I said two things in my post about the Hero Lab licensing:
> (a) that users DO need to activate the license (see the last sentence)
> ...




And you call that process 'not jumping through hoops'? Sorry, but the hoops are up, and you jumped through them. You may have thought the process worth the trouble, but you did indeed have to go through steps that should not have been necessary. Nor do all laptops have USB ports (though most do these days). For that matter, the computer at my old job did not have a USB port either. (Great printer, lousy computer... still running Win 98 last I heard.) I may have an axe to grind, but you are far too forgiving. 

As for tools for 40K and WFB I still find AB 2 works just fine - I have nothing against the programs themselves, it is the licensing that I object to, and at least locally I am in the majority on that one. AB 2 does indeed work very well. While I have only tried the demo version of AB3 it did not seem so much better that I would pay again every year to keep it up to date.

Lone Wolf is not the only company that has annoyed me with such licensing, though at least they were honest about it on their website. I got burned before, and ditched the program (a desktop publishing and graphics suite) with great speed, returning it to the store the next day, and unlike Lone Wolf they did not have the courtesy to mention the internet requirement or licensing in their advertising. 

So yes, part of this is bitterness towards licensed as opposed to purchased software. Another part of it is that I was _really looking forward to AB3 until they announced their licensing_. I would have purchased it immediately if they had not done that. I doubt that I am alone in this regard, and suspect that Lone Wolf is hurting their own sales by at least as much as the piracy would have. Even WotC eventually decided that they lost too many sales due to DRM protection over on Drive Thru RPG. This is just another form of DRM.

Heck, in spite of my annoyance with Lone Wolf I do still use AB2 for WH40K, Mordheim, and WHFB, and if they dropped the licensing I would buy AB3, but if and until then the program can remain on the virtual shelves.

The Auld Grump

*EDIT* Made a touch less confrontational.


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## labyrinth (Mar 27, 2007)

TheAuldGrump said:
			
		

> And you call that process 'not jumping through hoops'? Sorry, but the hoops are up, and you jumped through them. You may have thought the process worth the trouble, but you did indeed have to go through steps that should not have been necessary.



It was 2WS-Steve who said he didn't think he had to jump through hoops. And he was specifically referring to the wizard with the direct internet connection, so all he did was enter a license number, enter an email address, and click a few "Next" buttons. I don't view that as jumping through hoops, either.

What I had to do to activate WITHOUT a direct connection WAS jumping through hoops. However, with all the software I use on a day-in/day-out basis, the fact that it took me less than two minutes to complete, with no complications, make the Lone Wolf method vastly superior to many of the ones I'm stuck dealing with. And that's for the special case situation where I'm trying to activate a license on a machine with no internet connection! I just wish other software products made my life as easy when I AM connected to the internet.

Other than that, I completely respect your choice not to use AB3 and the reasoning behind it.

One last note. You made the assertion that you think they lost more users with the new licensing choice compared to the piracy potential. When the new licensing was announced, it got a lot of discussion on the Lone Wolf forums, and this assertion was made by someone. I recall one of the principals stating that they had collected concrete data that there were FOUR pirated copies of AB2 in use for every ONE purchased. He said that was what drove them to make the change. If the piracy numbers were really that obscene, I don't think Lone Wolf had a choice other than to use the new method. And if the numbers didn't improve (i.e. if they lost more customers than they gained), they probably would have abandoned the method by now (more than two years later). 

In the end, the people to really be ticked off at are the a$$h@les who pirated AB2 in the first place and forced Lone Wolf to make the switch. Essentially, they ruined a great thing for all of us honest users.


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## TheAuldGrump (Mar 27, 2007)

labyrinth said:
			
		

> It was 2WS-Steve who said he didn't think he had to jump through hoops. And he was specifically referring to the wizard with the direct internet connection, so all he did was enter a license number, enter an email address, and click a few "Next" buttons. I don't view that as jumping through hoops, either.
> 
> What I had to do to activate WITHOUT a direct connection WAS jumping through hoops. However, with all the software I use on a day-in/day-out basis, the fact that it took me less than two minutes to complete, with no complications, make the Lone Wolf method vastly superior to many of the ones I'm stuck dealing with. And that's for the special case situation where I'm trying to activate a license on a machine with no internet connection! I just wish other software products made my life as easy when I AM connected to the internet.
> 
> ...




You are right, I conflated your response and someone else's, not once but repeatedly. Sorry about that. (I did not reread the whole thread, but only read the newest responses, relying on fallible memory for the rest.)

I really did not mind having to have the AB2 CD in the drive in order for the program to function - it remained easily portable, so I could bung it into the drive at work and use it, then take the CD home again. It is too bad that this did not work, though I do think that a unique CD key would net more sales than the current version of the license. And I do not blame the yearly license for AB3 on pirates, but rather on simple greed - LW wants to get paid for the same program every year. Bah. 

As for there being 4 pirates to every 1 purchased, my only concrete example is six players in my Mordheim group, all with legitimate copies of AB2, all bought from the same store. Not one of them has purchased AB3. (There would have been more, but LW upped the price before one of the players bought his copy, so he decided to skip it.) This is out of eight players who use computers for doing their lists - the remaining players use either a version of Access or a spreadsheet. And the six players who bought it are still quite happy with AB2.

I disagree that LW was forced into this, and I have enough exposure to the stubbornness of human nature to doubt that they will switch back, even if they are losing sales. And as I stated before if LW was to do a unique CD key for each copy, I would be a lot more interested.

As a side question, more of interest to others rather than myself, I have already made my own decision in the matter - is it possible to install the program to a thumb drive and port it from one computer to another, or is the DRM linked to the kernel? 

The Auld Grump


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## labyrinth (Mar 27, 2007)

TheAuldGrump said:
			
		

> As for there being 4 pirates to every 1 purchased, my only concrete example is six players in my Mordheim group, all with legitimate copies of AB2, all bought from the same store.



I don't doubt you at all. I do know that at least 50% of the players in our area were using bootlegged copies of AB2, and that was with the local store riding hard on anyone found to be a pirate, so it would have been higher otherwise. That's just this area.



			
				TheAuldGrump said:
			
		

> I disagree that LW was forced into this, and I have enough exposure to the stubbornness of human nature to doubt that they will switch back, even if they are losing sales.



We really have no idea on this, either way. So we're both probably best off no longer asserting our theories as fact.



			
				TheAuldGrump said:
			
		

> And as I stated before if LW was to do a unique CD key for each copy, I would be a lot more interested.



That's an EXPENSIVE option. I know someone who got numbers on this for a game he was writing. Until the quantities got huge (e.g. 25,000+ units), the unit cost was well over a dollar, and it got truly silly at more likely production sizes for a product like AB (e.g. a few thousand units). Without the economies of scale, that technology just isn't cost viable. I had also wondered why they didn't do that approach until I heard the real costs involved.



			
				TheAuldGrump said:
			
		

> As a side question, more of interest to others rather than myself, I have already made my own decision in the matter - is it possible to install the program to a thumb drive and port it from one computer to another, or is the DRM linked to the kernel?



I don't believe that would work. The license is ostensibly tied to the computer itself and does not appear to be tied to a drive serial number. But I honestly haven't tried it, so don't quote me on that. If someone tries it and gets it to work, let us know!


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## TheAuldGrump (Mar 28, 2007)

labyrinth said:
			
		

> I don't doubt you at all. I do know that at least 50% of the players in our area were using bootlegged copies of AB2, and that was with the local store riding hard on anyone found to be a pirate, so it would have been higher otherwise. That's just this area.
> 
> 
> We really have no idea on this, either way. So we're both probably best off no longer asserting our theories as fact.
> ...



Heh, I do believe that I have stated that it is either my 'suspicion' or 'belief' or 'doubt' at most points in my diatribe, not stating them as 'facts', the only facts, as far as I know, deal with the purchases of myself and the other gamers that I know.

I am sorry that LW felt that the DRM was necessary, whether they were right or wrong. I do know that their decision influenced my buying habits. (And not in a good way.) 

Too bad on the numbers needed to make CD keys work, they seemed a reasonable compromise. Heck, there are a few gamers that I suspect would be willing to buy AB2 if it were still available, just to have legal programs without the fershluginer DRM. I sometimes think that half the reason that WARMACHINE is popular with my group is that Armies of Immoren is available so easily. I _know_ that this is why I use PCGen. It may be kludgy, but I do not need to worry about DRM. Hero Lab may be the best thing since sliced bread, but with the DRM I am not about to invest in it.

I am in the difficult position of hating both piracy and so many of the means chosen to prevent it. Between AKM (?) and Adobe the idea of limited software licenses leaves a bad taste in my mouth. 

The Auld Grump


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## Anurien (Mar 28, 2007)

I'm gonna take a wild guess from the post count and a few other subtle clues that Labyrinth = Rob Bowes (LoneWolf/HeroLab)

Call me suspicious....


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## TheYeti1775 (Mar 28, 2007)

labyrinth said:
			
		

> I don't doubt you at all. I do know that at least 50% of the players in our area were using bootlegged copies of AB2, and that was with the local store riding hard on anyone found to be a pirate, so it would have been higher otherwise. That's just this area.



Personnally if a store rode me hard about having pirated copies of stuff, #1 I would ask if they ever used a VHS or a Cassette tape to make a recording without written permission.  If they answer yes, simply call them a hypocrite and move on.  #2 wouldn't shop there anymore.  Honestly the only advantage of a brick and mortar store for me nowadays is the ability to pay cash at them and to peruse the books before buying.




> We really have no idea on this, either way. So we're both probably best off no longer asserting our theories as fact.



Everyone loves to spout off statistics, at least 90% do why stop now.   



> That's an EXPENSIVE option. I know someone who got numbers on this for a game he was writing. Until the quantities got huge (e.g. 25,000+ units), the unit cost was well over a dollar, and it got truly silly at more likely production sizes for a product like AB (e.g. a few thousand units). Without the economies of scale, that technology just isn't cost viable. I had also wondered why they didn't do that approach until I heard the real costs involved.



Is that a $1 per unit?  For quality work, I don't think anyone would mind a $1-2 increase in price of a quality product that offered 'hassle free' licensing.

Also, the same reason I don't get involved in MMORPG's that charge monthly.  I have to pay a monthly subscription for something I might not even have time for that month to maintain it.  That I believe is why Neverwinter Nights did so good, people could come and go as they pleased with a 'one-time' purchase minus expansion packs for it (not to mention it had a single-player mode).  And yes before anyone spouts off server costs and all that and new development, I know about that.  It's a business model that works for them.  Though I'm at the point in my life where $15-20 bucks a month will not break me, my time has become more valuable.  Between wife/kid/job/etc, is that $20 spent better on sitting my butt down and ignoring life for awhile or buying some legos for me and the kid to play together.  Guess who wins in my book.   So I buy software that makes me pay every year to use it 'AS IS' that to me would be a nail in the coffin for me using that product.

Yeti


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