# [OT]  What does "under Jacob's condition" mean?



## CrazyMage (Feb 20, 2003)

I picked up a book recently that was published in Germany.  They mentioned a possible sequel "sub conditione Jacobi."  Now I can do the Latin, but it still doesn't make sense.  Can anyone throw some light on what this expression means or where it came from?  A search on Google didn't turn up much, except that it appears to be an expression used in Germany (most of the pages found were in German, with one in Swedish).

Thanks


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## Darkness (Feb 20, 2003)

Hmm... A quick search turned up this:



> ... z.B. den traditionellen Briefschluss »s. c. (sub conditione) Jacobi« - »so Gott will und wir leben«, eine Erinnerung an die nur bedingte Verfügbarkeit der Zeit ...



Which roughly means in English: ...e.g., the traditional closing words in letters, "s. c. (sub conditione) Jacobi" - "if God wants and we live", a reminder that our time on earth is limited.


Comments:

1. I dunno why Jacobus = God. *shrug* Figures, I guess, 'cause I'm not religious.

2. "Traditional" in the sense of "isn't used today any longer," that is.


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## Zhure (Feb 20, 2003)

"Genesis 50:24
And Joseph said unto his brethren, I die: and God will surely visit you, and bring you out of this land unto the land which he sware to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob."

Just a guess, but I'd imagine it's a reference to God not fulfilling the promise to Jacob until after Jacob dies.

Greg


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## Buttercup (Feb 20, 2003)

Darkness said:
			
		

> *2. "Traditional" in the sense of "isn't used today any longer," that is.  *




I think a better English word for that concept would be "archaic".  But I get what you mean.     Older folks (born before WW2) sometimes use the phrase "God Willing" in that sort of sentence, which seems to be essentially the same thing.  For example, "I'll spend next Christmas in Los Angeles, God Willing."  People of younger generations do say it now and then, but not nearly as much.


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## Darkness (Feb 20, 2003)

You're right, of course. Thank you, Buttercup. 

And I think Zhure might be on to something as well.


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## CrazyMage (Feb 21, 2003)

Thanks for the replies.  I had a hunch that's what it meant, but was hoping for further clarification.  I knew you were a smart bunch


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## Dreeble (Feb 21, 2003)

Heya:

 Some of the replies made me think of the fun saying, "God willing and the creek don't rise."    I've seen that used here, rarely, too.

Take care,
Dreeble


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## Talvisota (Feb 21, 2003)

The saying is the Christian equivalent of the oft-heard (in Muslim societies) ensh-Allah, "God willing."


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## ColonelHardisson (Feb 21, 2003)

Sounds like the hillbilly (and my family are proud hillbillies, so I'm not name-calling) saying "if the Good Lord's willin' and the creeks don't rise."

EDIT: Durnit, I somehow overlooked Dreeble's reply...


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## Steverooo (Feb 21, 2003)

*Them Creek*



			
				Dreeble said:
			
		

> * Some of the replies made me think of the fun saying, "God willing and the creek don't rise."    I've seen that used here, rarely, too.*




N.B., here, that "Creek" (singular and plural) should be capitalized, as it referenced the tribe of AmerIndians, and not minor tributaries...


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## Frostmarrow (Feb 21, 2003)

CrazyMage said:
			
		

> *I picked up a book recently that was published in Germany.  They mentioned a possible sequel "sub conditione Jacobi."  Now I can do the Latin, but it still doesn't make sense.  Can anyone throw some light on what this expression means or where it came from?  A search on Google didn't turn up much, except that it appears to be an expression used in Germany (most of the pages found were in German, with one in Swedish).
> 
> Thanks *




On the Swedish site it says (I'm translating):

Our preparation of sermon shall be _sub conditione Jacobi_ "under Jacob's condition". Jac 4:13-15 i.e. "If the Lord wills and we may live". We leave under prayer our preparations in the hands of God. 

Vår förberedelse av predikan skall vara _sub conditione Jacobi_ "under Jakobs förutsättning". Jak 4:13-15 d.v.s. "om Herren vill och vi får leva". Vi lämnar under bön våra förberedelser i Guds händer.


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## ColonelHardisson (Feb 21, 2003)

*Re: Them Creek*



			
				Steverooo said:
			
		

> *
> 
> N.B., here, that "Creek" (singular and plural) should be capitalized, as it referenced the tribe of AmerIndians, and not minor tributaries... *




None of the people I ever heard use it thought that's what it meant; they actually were referencing streams.  Do you have a reference for this assertion?


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## CrazyMage (Feb 21, 2003)

Ah, Frostmarrow, you have given me my answer!  Tack så mycket.


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## Zhure (Feb 21, 2003)

http://www.wordwizard.com/clubhouse/founddiscuss.asp?Num=2899

creek vs Creek


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## ColonelHardisson (Feb 21, 2003)

Zhure said:
			
		

> *http://www.wordwizard.com/clubhouse/founddiscuss.asp?Num=2899
> 
> creek vs Creek *




That's interesting, but no offense intended to you, that isn't very concrete. Even if it is accurate, the original meaning was lost long ago, and the phrase has changed into meaning streams. Saying that "creek" should be capitalized is akin to correcting someone who says "butt naked" instead of the original "buck naked;" most wouldn't even understand what the original phrase was referencing, and instead would be referencing what they are familiar with. I know that the folk I know who use the phrase are directly referencing streams, often the ones that run near their houses. Again, no disrespect intended to you or the original poster. It's just a case of cultural/language drift.


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## Desdichado (Feb 21, 2003)

I'm with the Colonel on this one.  And where I come from, you wouldn't say creek anyway, you'd say crick.  

On a tangential note, is AmerIndian a word still in use?  The certainly seemed the most awkward of the many words used to describe them, and it seems to have never really caught on, as near as I can tell.  I prefer the term native americans, although how native they truly are is a question I'll leave to the anthropologists.


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## Vaxalon (Feb 21, 2003)

"Amerindian" "Native American" "First Nations"

It's one of those words that changes periodically.

"Negro" "Black" "Person of Color"

"Asian" ...  well, okay, some of them don't change.

Anyways

What happens is that the people choose a new word for themselves, one that doesn't have the perceived negative connotations that the "old" term had.

The new term picks up the old connotation.

The people choose a new word.


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## Zhure (Feb 22, 2003)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> *
> 
> That's interesting, but no offense intended to you, that isn't very concrete. *




None taken. How could I be offended when I hadn't espoused my stance on this issue?

Personally, I'm guessing the original term was "creek." It's a guess though, based on the pervasiveness of the phrase as opposed to the traditional areas of influence of the Cree. However, I'm not stuck on my belief and if someone offers some better etymological evidence, I'd like to read it.

I checked with Word-detective and a few other sources I trust and found nothing definitive. 

Greg


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## I'm A Banana (Feb 22, 2003)

If you want to know what being under my condition means, talk to the ladies...

IYKWIMAITYD

--Kamikaze Midget, AKA: "Jacob"


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## Samaeljs (Feb 6, 2013)

Meaning, if God wills it. Used like the Islamic in'shallah, Deo Volente was a common saying in the Middle Ages. Came to be referred as sub conditione Jacobi in Latin. Connected to Deus Vult, common crusader battle cry. Deo Volente- if God wills it Deus Vult- God wills it


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## Samaeljs (Feb 6, 2013)

As for Creek, it should be capitalized. As per the Native American tribes treaties with the U.S., they are all sovereign nations as well as population groups. They have their own website. Different tribes have different denominations within them. The Creek Nation of Oklahoma is the Muscogee. muscogeenation-nsn.gov


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## Janx (Feb 6, 2013)

Samaeljs said:


> As for Creek, it should be capitalized. As per the Native American tribes treaties with the U.S., they are all sovereign nations as well as population groups. They have their own website. Different tribes have different denominations within them. The Creek Nation of Oklahoma is the Muscogee. muscogeenation-nsn.gov




Only if the sentence actually refers to the tribe.  Since the sentence involves a word that could rever to a small stream OR a tribe of native americans, it is ambiguous.

Give that you just mentioned Creek from Oklahoma, and the quote is from a hillbilly speech, which tended to come from the Appalachian mountains, the matter is further ambiguous.

Unless the Creek were far reaching (or moved), it would imply they existed in the West, and thus wouldn't be a part of hillbilly concerns in the East.  Therefore increasing the likelyhood the hillbillies were concerned about water rising, not native americans.


I'm sure some expert on Native American history can chime in with "...actually, they lived in  lands taken over by hillbillies..."  But until such evidence comes up, we need not assume and enforce captilization rules on a topic that is all wet.


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## Umbran (Feb 6, 2013)

ColonelHardisson said:


> That's interesting, but no offense intended to you, that isn't very concrete. Even if it is accurate, the original meaning was lost long ago, and the phrase has changed into meaning streams.




Many (possibly most) people don't recall that the term "gypped" is a reference to being cheated by gypsies - a decidedly negative reference to the Romani people.  Pretty much every time it gets used on these boards, someone will drop us a line to note that we're allowing a racial slur on the site.  Simply put - your ignorance of the origin doesn't mean someone won't be offended.  

What matters is, having the issue pointed out to you, how do you respond?  Do you keep fighting to use a phrase some folks feel is offensive, or do you bend to their sensibilities.  Your call.



Vaxalon said:


> "Asian" ...  well, okay, some of them don't change.




No, that one too - the previous term was "Oriental" that is now decidedly out of favor.


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## Nagol (Feb 6, 2013)

Janx said:


> Only if the sentence actually refers to the tribe.  Since the sentence involves a word that could rever to a small stream OR a tribe of native americans, it is ambiguous.
> 
> Give that you just mentioned Creek from Oklahoma, and the quote is from a hillbilly speech, which tended to come from the Appalachian mountains, the matter is further ambiguous.
> 
> ...




The Muskogee (Creek) tribe started off in Georgia.  THe Creek designation came from the settlers because the tribe lived near Ocmulgee Creek, apparently.


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## ColonelHardisson (Feb 6, 2013)

Ugh, forget it...


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 6, 2013)

You know what they say..."Follow the money!"


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## Gryph (Feb 6, 2013)

Janx said:


> Only if the sentence actually refers to the tribe.  Since the sentence involves a word that could rever to a small stream OR a tribe of native americans, it is ambiguous.
> 
> Give that you just mentioned Creek from Oklahoma, and the quote is from a hillbilly speech, which tended to come from the Appalachian mountains, the matter is further ambiguous.
> 
> ...



The Creek tribes were part of the Trail of Tears forced migration to Oklahoma.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Feb 7, 2013)

So, what about all those weathermen talking about "Apache fog"?


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## Janx (Feb 7, 2013)

Gryph said:


> The Creek tribes were part of the Trail of Tears forced migration to Oklahoma.




yeah, I guessed as much when I left myself an out for an expert to come in.

The world has become a place where folks can take offense because a capital letter was left off or an age old saying becomes offensive, despite the fact that the speaker no longer recalls the reason for the saying.  I'm pretty sure hill billies aren't too concerned about the Creek Nation rising anymore.


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## Umbran (Feb 7, 2013)

Janx said:


> The world has become a place where folks can take offense because a capital letter was left off or an age old saying becomes offensive, despite the fact that the speaker no longer recalls the reason for the saying.  I'm pretty sure hill billies aren't too concerned about the Creek Nation rising anymore.




What do you mean, "has become"?  The human race has held onto past wrongs since time immemorial!  The Hatfields and McCoys were at it for, what, 30 years?  There are whole nations on this Earth that glare at each other across borders for things done a generation to a century ago.  And that's just for things long gone.  How much longer will the memory be when, honestly, the wrongs of the past still exist?

Honestly, what does it say that we cannot be bothered to even remember what happened to people, and do them the respect of not referring to it casually, as if it didn't really matter?  You think they should take that in stride, and not feel disrespected?


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## Janx (Feb 7, 2013)

Umbran said:


> The human race has held onto past wrongs since time immemorial!




And maybe they shouldn't.  We're gonna need a whole new language, just to avoid offending anybody because of some past connotation.

or, we could drop it. and focus on what the speaker's actual intent was.  So yes, Everybody should take things in stride and instead of taking offense where none was intended.


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## Samaeljs (Feb 9, 2013)

This isn't really expert level Janx. This is the "read the players handbook" of early American history, metaphorically speaking.


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## Random Bystander (Feb 11, 2013)

I humbly apologize to all of my ancestors for all the nasty things they did to each other.

I am, after all, responsible for most of them killing and oppressing each other for longer than some countries have existed. I should never be offensive to all of my many ancestors by attempting to leaven current situations with humour, so we can all stop hating each other over mutual borders.

Far better that we remember ceaselessly the wrongs done in the past, so we can bring them up as injuries and always lodge protest of anyone and anything that might seem the slightest slight.

Finally, I'm not responsible for broken, shattered or combusted sarcasm meters. In case that was too subtle for you, I have the ethnicities of oppressors and oppressed in my ancestry, and sometimes one was the other, so I think I'm fully qualified to say - 

 - Let it go, or you might as well let your lawyers strangle your childrens' bank accounts in their cribs.


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## Lwaxy (Feb 11, 2013)

It refers to the Epistle of James (Jacobus in Greek). 

"Why, you do not even know  what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that  appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, “If it is the Lord’s will, we will live and do this or that.”


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