# Converting monsters from Imagine Magazine



## Shade (Jun 22, 2007)

This thread continues the idea of “cooperative conversions”, converting a series of monsters from similar sources. For this thread, we will be focusing on monsters that first appeared in TSR UK's Imagine magazine.

What I will do is first post the creature’s original stats and flavor text. Then, I will post a basic outline of the things I think it needs, and then I will give you an opportunity to suggest stats and ideas on how powers and abilities should work. Then, I will add more to it and we will continue to discuss it until I feel it’s done and time to move on to the next. As we work on these creatures, they will be posted in this thread, and after 10 conversions are complete they will be added to the Creature Catalog. You may comment on monsters already finished, of course.

For a list of creatures to choose from, see this thread. We will only be working on those creatures from magazines that appeared before the start of 3rd Edition, and that haven’t yet appeared in official WotC products, the Tome of Horrors, or the Creature Catalog. You may feel free to make suggestions, but ultimately I will pick what to convert and when. If I’m missing any monsters from this list or if any of these have appeared elsewhere already, feel free to inform me.


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2007)

CANOPIC SHADE

FREQUENCY: Rare
No. APPEARING: Usually 2 (one of each type, see below)
ARMOUR CLASS: Not applicable
MOVE: Instantaneous (up to 10 feet)
HIT DICE: 1+6
% IN LAIR: 100%
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
# ATTACKS: Nil
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Nil
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENCES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Total
INTELLIGENCE: None
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: Not applicable
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
  Attack/Defence modes: Nil
LEVEL/xp VALUE: III/100 xp + 2xp per hit point.

These non-corporeal entities may be thought of as fragments of an undead creature. They are created when the brain and heart of a corpse are removed to be interred separately in containers known as canopic jars.

Any undead creature which arises from this corpse will be sundered into three parts. The first will be one of the usual kinds of undead. This will develop from the main corpse and will have all the usual attributes except that, lacking a brain, it will be non-intelligent and, lacking a heart, will be fearless even to the extent of being resistant to the turning effect of clerics. Clerics (and Paladins) affect them as if they were 3 levels below their actual level. Therefore, clerics of levels 1-3 cannot affect these undead.

The other two fragments, which arise from the brain and heart, are known as canopic shades. These shades are quite separate from the main undead and remain inside their canopic jars until a living being comes within 10 feet. When this occurs the shade will move instantaneously from the jar into the creature's body and there try to fulfil its one desire, to become free of the earthly plane by killing the creature and finding rest along with it.

The ability of a character to resist the attack depends on two of its ability scores; *intelligence* and *wisdom* in the case of a shade which arises from the *brain*, and *strength* and *constitution* in the case of the shade from the *heart*.

The only thing which can prevent a canopic shade from entering a character is a *protection from evil* (spell or otherwise). Failing this, the shade will automatically gain entry and begin to attack the creature from within. Each round that the shade is within the character the DM should subtract d8 x d6 (i.e. d8 multiplied by d6) from the current total of the character's two appropriate ability scores and apply the results as follows:

*Total of abilities minus d8 x d6 is:*
0 to 35: _Shade takes one hit point of damage_
-1 to -12: _Character loses d4 points (temporarily) from one randomly determined ability score._
-13 to -34: _Character loses one point (permanently) from one randomly determined ability score._

If any of the character's ability scores falls below 3 (including temporary effects), it will be fatal. If the victim dies the shade will pass away with it and not attack any other character.

Canopic shades will always attack until destroyed (reduced to zero hit points) or until the victim dies.

A victim managing to destroy a shade will gain one point on one randomly determined ability score.

CREDITS!
Art and Design: Graerne Morris


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2007)

From another thread...



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> A template looks like it would be the best solution for the first fragment of a canopic shade.
> 
> The othe two look like tiny sized incorporeal undead with a special attack.
> 
> ...


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2007)

I agree with your assessment, Mortis.

So the "corpse" part almost sounds like it could just use any corporeal undead template and grant it turn resistance +3 (perhaps that stacks with existing turn resistance?).

The "brain" and "heart" should be 1 HD incorporeal undead, right?   With an attack similar to this?

Malevolence (Su): Once per round, an ethereal ghost can merge its body with a creature on the Material Plane. This ability is similar to a magic jar spell (caster level 10th or the ghost’s Hit Dice, whichever is higher), except that it does not require a receptacle. To use this ability, the ghost must be manifested and it must try move into the target’s space; moving into the target’s space to use the malevolence ability does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The target can resist the attack with a successful Will save (DC 16). A creature that successfully saves is immune to that same ghost’s malevolence for 24 hours, and the ghost cannot enter the target’s space. If the save fails, the ghost vanishes into the target’s body.


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## Echohawk (Jun 23, 2007)

> Art and Design: Graerne Morris



Oops. This should, of course, read "Graeme". (Bad OCR! )


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## freyar (Jun 23, 2007)

Heh, this one looks interesting.  Very Egyptian.  

For the corpse part, I'd add that the "canopic shade" template adds the SQs mindless and immune to fear.

For the malevolence attack of the "heart" and "brain," I think magic jar is a good starting point, using Fort/Will saves for the heart/brain shades.  I think we could even use the canopic jars as the magic jars.  I'd simplify the attacks made by the possessing shade as requiring Fort/Will saves each round to prevent 1 point of damage (or drain?) from Con/Cha with death occuring at Con/Cha equals 0.  A successful save deals damage to the shade (1 hp?).  Do we want a shade victim who survives to gain a point (enhancement bonus?) to an ability?


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## Mortis (Jun 25, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> So the "corpse" part almost sounds like it could just use any corporeal undead template and grant it turn resistance +3 (perhaps that stacks with existing turn resistance?).



Any *intelligent*, corporeal undead? I can't see that you could use skeletons and zombies etc.



> The "brain" and "heart" should be 1 HD incorporeal undead, right?



Yeah,  they remind me a little of the gray philosopher's malices.


> With an attack similar to this?
> 
> Malevolence (Su): Once per round, an ethereal ghost can merge its body with a creature on the Material Plane. This ability is similar to a magic jar spell (caster level 10th or the ghost’s Hit Dice, whichever is higher), except that it does not require a receptacle. To use this ability, the ghost must be manifested and it must try move into the target’s space; moving into the target’s space to use the malevolence ability does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The target can resist the attack with a successful Will save (DC 16). A creature that successfully saves is immune to that same ghost’s malevolence for 24 hours, and the ghost cannot enter the target’s space. If the save fails, the ghost vanishes into the target’s body.



Yes

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jun 25, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> For the corpse part, I'd add that the "canopic shade" template adds the SQs mindless and immune to fear.




The undead type has got this covered.    



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> For the malevolence attack of the "heart" and "brain," I think magic jar is a good starting point, using Fort/Will saves for the heart/brain shades.  I think we could even use the canopic jars as the magic jars.  I'd simplify the attacks made by the possessing shade as requiring Fort/Will saves each round to prevent 1 point of damage (or drain?) from Con/Cha with death occuring at Con/Cha equals 0.  A successful save deals damage to the shade (1 hp?).  Do we want a shade victim who survives to gain a point (enhancement bonus?) to an ability?




I like it!    



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Any *intelligent*, corporeal undead? I can't see that you could use skeletons and zombies etc.




Eh?

"Any undead creature which arises from this corpse will be sundered into three parts. The first will be one of the usual kinds of undead. This will develop from the main corpse and will have all the usual attributes *except that, lacking a brain, it will be non-intelligent* and, lacking a heart, will be fearless even to the extent of being resistant to the turning effect of clerics. Clerics (and Paladins) affect them as if they were 3 levels below their actual level. Therefore, clerics of levels 1-3 cannot affect these undead."

Here's a stab at a first draft of the "malevolence" ability...

Malevolence (Su): Once per round, a canopic shade can merge its body with a creature on the Material Plane. This ability is similar to a magic jar spell (caster level Xth), except that it uses the canopic jar as a receptacle. To use this ability, the canopic shade must try to move into the target’s space; moving into the target’s space to use the malevolence ability does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The target can resist the attack with a successful DC X Will save (for the brain) or DC X Fortitude save (for the heart). A creature that successfully saves is immune to that same canopic shade's malevolence for 24 hours, and the canopic shade cannot enter the target’s space. If the save fails, the canopic shade  vanishes into the target’s body.

"Essence Drain (Su):  Once a canopic shade has successfully used its malevolence ability and merged with a victim, it begins to drain the victim's essence.  Each round, the victim must succeed on a DC X Will save (for the brain) or DC X Fortitude save (for the heart). Failure indicates that the victim suffers 1 point of ability drain (Charisma for the heart, Consititution for the body).   A victim reduced to Cha or Con 0 in this manner dies, and the canopic shade is immediately destroyed as well.

Each round that a victim succeeds on its saving throw, the canopic shade suffers 1 point of damage.   If a canopic shade is destroyed while merged with a victim, a tiny spark of stolen essence bursts forth, granting the victim 1d4 temporary points of Charisma (for the brain) or Constitution (for the heart).  These temporary ability scores last for 24 hours.


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## freyar (Jun 26, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> The undead type has got this covered.




Yeah, I forgot about the immunity from fear.  But not all corporeal undead are mindless.  From the SRD, ghouls, ghasts, vampire spawn, vampires, and liches all spring to mind (though admittedly the last two don't seem like good candidates for being canopic).

Malevolance and Essence Drain look good to me.

What CR do we think this should have?


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## Mortis (Jun 26, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Eh?
> 
> "Any undead creature which arises from this corpse will be sundered into three parts. The first will be one of the usual kinds of undead. This will develop from the main corpse and will have all the usual attributes *except that, lacking a brain, it will be non-intelligent* and, lacking a heart, will be fearless even to the extent of being resistant to the turning effect of clerics. Clerics (and Paladins) affect them as if they were 3 levels below their actual level. Therefore, clerics of levels 1-3 cannot affect these undead."



Sorry, I could have made that clearer. 

What I meant was that you *start* with an intelligent undead - the removal of the brain (and heart) would then make it non-intelligent.

i.e. You can't remove the brain from a skeleton (for example) because it doesn't have one 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jun 26, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Yeah, I forgot about the immunity from fear.  But not all corporeal undead are mindless.  From the SRD, ghouls, ghasts, vampire spawn, vampires, and liches all spring to mind (though admittedly the last two don't seem like good candidates for being canopic).




Actually, per the undead type:



> Immunity to all mind-affecting spells and abilities (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).




And...



> All fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects.




It takes a bit of digging, but even non-mindless undead have built-in immunity to fear.    



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> What CR do we think this should have?




Good question.  Let's see how it looks after we develop it a bit more (unless we end up needing the CR to further the development).    



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Sorry, I could have made that clearer.
> 
> What I meant was that you *start* with an intelligent undead - the removal of the brain (and heart) would then make it non-intelligent.
> 
> i.e. You can't remove the brain from a skeleton (for example) because it doesn't have one




Ahh, I see now.   But isn't the corporeal undead created as part of the removal of parts from a (not-yet-undead) corpse?   Thus, the zombie or skeleton template isn't technically applied separately...the canopic shade template essentially includes the other undead template used, right?


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## Mortis (Jun 26, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Ahh, I see now.   But isn't the corporeal undead created as part of the removal of parts from a (not-yet-undead) corpse?   Thus, the zombie or skeleton template isn't technically applied separately...the canopic shade template essentially includes the other undead template used, right?



I suppose it depends on what the canopic shade template is applied to. Do you apply it to an existing corporeal undead, or to the corpse of a dead humanoid (for example).

Then again, maybe I'm just over complicating things 

Regards
Mortis


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## freyar (Jun 26, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> I suppose it depends on what the canopic shade template is applied to. Do you apply it to an existing corporeal undead, or to the corpse of a dead humanoid (for example).
> 
> Then again, maybe I'm just over complicating things




I'd say over-complicating.  Let's say it can be applied to any corporeal undead as an "inherited" template, meaning that it's applied at creation of the creature.  That way skeletons make sense, but you can't have a vampire suddenly become canopic, say.  In practice, the "corpse" part should just be a template that can be applied to any corporeal undead.

In any case, this is looking good to me.


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## Mortis (Jun 26, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> I'd say over-complicating.  Let's say it can be applied to any corporeal undead as an "inherited" template, meaning that it's applied at *creation* of the creature.  That way skeletons make sense, but you can't have a vampire suddenly become canopic, say.  In practice, the "corpse" part should just be a template that can be applied to any corporeal undead.



Yeah that's when it should happen. 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jun 26, 2007)

Well said, Freyar.


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## Mortis (Jun 27, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Well said, Freyar.



Now we've got that sorted , where are we up to?

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jun 27, 2007)

A canopic shade is actually three separate creatures:  a corporeal undead known as a canopic corpse, and two incorporeal undead canopic shades, one known as "the heart" and the other known as "the brain".

Creating a Canopic Corpse

“Canopic corpse” is an inherited template that can be added to any corporeal undead  (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

A canopic corpse has all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Turn Resistance (Ex): A canopic corpse has +3 turn resistance.  If the base creature already possesses turn resistance, it gains a +3 enhancement bonus to its existing turn resistance.

Canopic Shade
X Undead (Incorporeal)
Hit Dice: xd12 (x hp)
Initiative: +x
Speed: Fly X ft. (X squares) (perfect)
Armor Class: x (+x Dex, +x natural ,+x deflection), touch x, flat-footed x
Base Attack/Grapple: +x/+x
Attack: Claw +x melee (x+x)
Full Attack: 2 claws +x melee (x+x)
Space/Reach: x ft./x ft.
Special Attacks: Essence drain, malevolence
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., incorporeal traits, undead traits 
Saves: Fort +x, Ref +x, Will +x
Abilities: Str x, Dex x, Con x, Int x, Wis x, Cha x
Skills: X
Feats: X
Environment: X
Organization: X
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: X
Alignment: X
Advancement: X
Level Adjustment: -

Malevolence (Su): Once per round, a canopic shade can merge its body with a creature on the Material Plane. This ability is similar to a magic jar spell (caster level Xth), except that it uses the canopic jar as a receptacle. To use this ability, the canopic shade must try to move into the target’s space; moving into the target’s space to use the malevolence ability does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The target can resist the attack with a successful DC X Will save (for the brain) or DC X Fortitude save (for the heart). A creature that successfully saves is immune to that same canopic shade's malevolence for 24 hours, and the canopic shade cannot enter the target’s space. If the save fails, the canopic shade vanishes into the target’s body.

"Essence Drain (Su): Once a canopic shade has successfully used its malevolence ability and merged with a victim, it begins to drain the victim's essence. Each round, the victim must succeed on a DC X Will save (for the brain) or DC X Fortitude save (for the heart). Failure indicates that the victim suffers 1 point of ability drain (Charisma for the heart, Consititution for the body). A victim reduced to Cha or Con 0 in this manner dies, and the canopic shade is immediately destroyed as well.

Each round that a victim succeeds on its saving throw, the canopic shade suffers 1 point of damage. If a canopic shade is destroyed while merged with a victim, a tiny spark of stolen essence bursts forth, granting the victim 1d4 temporary points of Charisma (for the brain) or Constitution (for the heart). These temporary ability scores last for 24 hours.


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## Mortis (Jun 28, 2007)

Would it be easier to work on each of the three creatures seperately? 

Regards
Mortis


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## freyar (Jun 28, 2007)

Looking pretty good.  For the canopic corpse, I'd add that you get Int -.  Should the only attacks for the shades be the malevolence?


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## Shade (Jun 29, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Would it be easier to work on each of the three creatures seperately?




I dunno.  They seem awfully tied together.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Looking pretty good.  For the canopic corpse, I'd add that you get Int -.  Should the only attacks for the shades be the malevolence?




Good point on the mindless Int -.  Yeah, shades should lack other attacks.   I'll start this up in Homebrews and add those modifications.


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## Mortis (Jul 6, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> It takes a bit of digging, but even non-mindless undead have built-in immunity to fear.



And here's the confirmation in a recent Sage Advice.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jul 6, 2007)

Here's the link to it in Homebrews.

Medium size?

Fly 60 ft. (perfect)?

1 HD, with unholy toughness and Toughness to account for the (1+6 HD)?


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## freyar (Jul 7, 2007)

It's looking pretty good.  And those suggestions all sound fine to me, too.


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2007)

Let's consider ability scores.   Here are some other incorporeal undead...

Shadow: Str —, Dex 14, Con —,Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 13 
Wraith: Str —, Dex 16, Con —, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 15
Spectre: Str —, Dex 16, Con —, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 15

Maybe Dex 16, Int 4-6, Wis 12, Cha 13?


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## Mortis (Jul 9, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Maybe Dex 16, Int 4-6, Wis 12, Cha 13?



Well the original has no Intelligence, and IIRC we agreed that the animated corpse would be mindless - it might be easier if all three elements were mindless (including the brain).

If so, then the standard mindless undead abilities of Int -, WIs 10, Cha 1?

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2007)

Here's the problem...the save DCs should all be Cha-based.   

The knell beetles in MMIII have Int -, but also have Wis 11, Cha 11.

How's that sound?


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## freyar (Jul 9, 2007)

Looks fine to me.


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2007)

I removed the unholy toughness ability since it doesn't have a Cha bonus.

To help simulate the "1dX+6 Hit Dice", should we give it Toughness as a bonus feat?

Note that with no Cha bonus, it also lacks a deflection bonus to AC.

The save DCs are a rather anemic 10.  We could go the racial bonus route, or grant Ability Focus as bonus feat(s).   

The more I look at it, the more I think we need a bump to Cha.


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## freyar (Jul 9, 2007)

Why don't we give it Wis and Cha more like the spectre, put back unholy toughness, and maybe give it Ability Focus if we think it needs to be harder?


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## Shade (Jul 10, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Why don't we give it Wis and Cha more like the spectre, put back unholy toughness, and maybe give it Ability Focus if we think it needs to be harder?




I think we can get away with it.  I just found another mindless creature with high scores in the other mental stats, the astral kraken from Planar Handbook (Int -, Wis 14, Cha 12).

So how about Wis 13, Cha 15, Ability Focus (malevolence), and unholy toughness for 2 more hit points?  That would raise the DCs to 14 for malevolence and 12 for essence drain.   We can drop standard Toughness, which feels a bit wrong for an incorporeal creature.


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## freyar (Jul 11, 2007)

Sounds pretty reasonable.


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## Shade (Jul 11, 2007)

Updated in Homebrews.

Fill in the x's...

Environment: X   (Any?)
Organization: X  (2 canopic shades and 1 canopic corpse)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: X  (It says "nil", but I'd suppose whatever was buried with the original being could still be present)
Alignment: X  (It was Neutral, but I could see a strong case for neutral evil)


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## freyar (Jul 11, 2007)

My ideas:


Environment:  Underground
I see this as being a "dungeon" or tomb kind of creature, which usually ends up underground.

Organization:  Ka (2 canopic shades and 1 canopic corpse)
From wikipedia, the Ka was the Egyptian word for "life force."  Interestingly enough, the Egyptians didn't remove the heart and didn't usually preserve the brain, but I still think most people will think "Egyptians" when they read this monster.

Challenge Rating: 1
That seems about right given the HD and saves.  Might be a little difficult as an incorporeal creature, but there is an alternate means to destroy them.

Treasure: Standard or None (I can't decide!)
I agree that there should be some treasure, since any tomb robber will likely have destroyed the shades and canopic corpse.  However, I can't decide whether the shades should have any treasure separate from the corpse.  I do think the corpse should have treasure appropriate to its CR.  It would kind of make sense for a richer person to end up as a more challenging undead.

Alignment: N
I prefer the idea that these things are kind of acting out of an instinctive need to pass on, though I wouldn't object to NE either.

Should the canopic corpse get a +1 CR due to the increased turn resistance, or is that roughly canceled by lack of Int?


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## Mortis (Jul 11, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Environment: X   (Any?)



Well it fills a similar niche to the gray philosopher so Any land, underground and aquatic?



> Organization: X  (2 canopic shades and 1 canopic corpse)



*Internment* (1 canopic corpse plus 1 canopic brain and 1 canopic heart) assuming that the two shades are still going to use slightly different attacks. The heart affecting Con and the brain Cha.



> Challenge Rating: X



CR: Won't that depend the base creature for the canopic corpse? Or shall we have seperate CR's for the shades and the template?



> Treasure: X  (It says "nil", but I'd suppose whatever was buried with the original being could still be present)



 some treasure seems reasonable - Standard?



> Alignment: X  (It was Neutral, but I could see a strong case for neutral evil)



I agree on NE.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jul 12, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Well it fills a similar niche to the gray philosopher so Any land, underground and aquatic?




Sure, although aquatic seems odd.  Of course, aquatic mummies were a staple of the old Daggerfall CRPG.    



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> *Internment* (1 canopic corpse plus 1 canopic brain and 1 canopic heart) assuming that the two shades are still going to use slightly different attacks. The heart affecting Con and the brain Cha.




Perfect, and great name!



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> CR: Won't that depend the base creature for the canopic corpse? Or shall we have seperate CR's for the shades and the template?




Separate CRs for the separate component creatures.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> some treasure seems reasonable - Standard?




That'll work.

Any thoughts on Advancement?


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## Mortis (Jul 12, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Sure, although aquatic seems odd.  Of course, aquatic mummies were a staple of the old Daggerfall CRPG.



I think that the argument was that the tomb was orignally above water but could over the centuries become flooded etc. I don't have a problem if you drop it however.



> Perfect, and great name!



I have my moments 



> Separate CRs for the separate component creatures.



As I suspected.



> Any thoughts on Advancement?



Not sure - should all three aspects be allowed to advance seperately or, as I would prefer, base the advancement on the base creature's hit dice. The bigger the base creature the more powerful the heart and brain become?

Regards
Mortis


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## freyar (Jul 12, 2007)

I do like the name!  

Like I mentioned above, I'd guess the shades are each CR1.  I don't know about the corpse; just for the turn resistance, I'd give the template +1 to CR.  However, for something like a vampire, the lack of intelligence might negate that kind of advantage.

I've been thinking, and I like standard treasure for the corpse and none (or half) for the shades.  That way, the rich burials become stronger undead.

I second Mortis's idea on advancement.  The shades should advance according to the HD of the corpse.


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## Shade (Jul 13, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Not sure - should all three aspects be allowed to advance seperately or, as I would prefer, base the advancement on the base creature's hit dice. The bigger the base creature the more powerful the heart and brain become?




I like this, but where/how do we fit that in?


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## Mortis (Jul 13, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I like this, but where/how do we fit that in?



How is 'quite' easy - a table with increasing abilities corresponding to the base creatures HD.
Where would probably have to be in the template.

I'm beginning to think that we could borrow an idea from the Bloodsipper and pod denizen and use abbreviated stat blocks for the heart and brain (and thus have them part of the template)

What do you guys think?

Regards
Mortis


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## freyar (Jul 13, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> How is 'quite' easy - a table with increasing abilities corresponding to the base creatures HD.
> Where would probably have to be in the template.
> 
> I'm beginning to think that we could borrow an idea from the Bloodsipper and pod denizen and use abbreviated stat blocks for the heart and brain (and thus have them part of the template)
> ...




I like it!  For the canopic shade abilities, we could just use something like Cha/Wis= 12+HD/2+Cha/Wis bonus (min 0), where the right hand of that equation refers to the base undead.  Then the shades for a sentient undead might get a bit more of a boost.

How about that?


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## Shade (Jul 16, 2007)

Hmmm...

I suppose that could work.   It seems to me (and I could be wrong), that the "corpse" is the least important of the three parts, so it seems odd to base the thing's power off it.


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## freyar (Jul 16, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I suppose that could work.   It seems to me (and I could be wrong), that the "corpse" is the least important of the three parts, so it seems odd to base the thing's power off it.




IMHO, yes and no.  The corpse is certainly the least _interesting_ part, since we've "been there and done that" before basically.  However, it may well be the most powerful part.  Also, tying the shade abilities to the base undead (using whatever formula) makes some thematic sense, in that the shades essentially come from the intellect and personality of the corpse.


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## Shade (Jul 16, 2007)

OK, I'll expect to see said table on my (virtual) desk in the morning.


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## freyar (Jul 17, 2007)

Well, it's a bit crude, but there was the earlier suggestion of 12+HD/2 (round up?) + relevant ability bonus (min 0) of the base undead.  

Examples:
_Human Zombie_ (2HD, Wis 10, Cha 1) gives shades with Wis 13, Cha 13.
_Human Skeleton_ same but only 1HD.
_Vampire Spawn_ (4HD, Wis 13, Cha 14) gives shades with Wis 15, Cha 16.
etc.

I guess I'd make the whole "canopic template" including the shades a CR+2, but I'm still not comfortable with the more intelligent undead since they lose their strategy.  Maybe we should say they use their special abilities (like _dominate_ for the vampire or spawn for example) at an instinctive level.


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## Shade (Jul 17, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> I guess I'd make the whole "canopic template" including the shades a CR+2, but I'm still not comfortable with the more intelligent undead since they lose their strategy.  Maybe we should say they use their special abilities (like _dominate_ for the vampire or spawn for example) at an instinctive level.




We might have to do something like that.  Otherwise, we might as well just use the zombie template and be done with it.

How about they retain their Ex and Su abilities, but lose any spell-like abilities?   I can't really see a mindless creature firing off SLAs, but a breath weapon or energy drain could be instinctual.


----------



## Mortis (Jul 17, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> How about they retain their Ex and Su abilities, but lose any spell-like abilities?   I can't really see a mindless creature firing off SLAs, but a breath weapon or energy drain could be instinctual.



That sounds good.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## freyar (Jul 17, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> We might have to do something like that.  Otherwise, we might as well just use the zombie template and be done with it.
> 
> How about they retain their Ex and Su abilities, but lose any spell-like abilities?   I can't really see a mindless creature firing off SLAs, but a breath weapon or energy drain could be instinctual.




Sounds good to me.


----------



## Shade (Jul 19, 2007)

Updated in Homebrews.  Are we on the right track?


----------



## Mortis (Jul 20, 2007)

I'd say so. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## freyar (Jul 20, 2007)

Looking pretty good.

CR for this thing?  And should the shades have a separate CR or be included in the template CR adjustment?


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## Shade (Jul 20, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Looking pretty good.
> 
> CR for this thing?  And should the shades have a separate CR or be included in the template CR adjustment?




Since we've rolled them back into the template, I'd say they are part of the corpse's CR.  I believe you suggested +2 earlier, which seems about right.   Any spells or SLAs the base undead loses they'll make up for with the shades' drain essence.


----------



## freyar (Jul 20, 2007)

Sounds ok, I guess, though I worry that the shades' DCs might be a bit low if we apply this to a more powerful undead.  Well, let's not worry about that much, as it's probably a wonky kind of case that people won't use much.  I had suggested +1 for the corpse and 1 each for the shades, so +2 is probably good altogether, then.  We should drop the CR line from the Canopic Shade statblock.  I guess we're almost done with this one.


----------



## Shade (Jul 20, 2007)

We could base the shade's save DC off the corpse's HD rather than their own.


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## Mortis (Jul 20, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> We could base the shade's save DC off the corpse's HD rather than their own.



Works for me. 

Regards
Mortis


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## freyar (Jul 20, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> We could base the shade's save DC off the corpse's HD rather than their own.




Right.  Still not sure it quite adds up to +2 CR, but it's good enough for me.


----------



## Shade (Jul 20, 2007)

Updated.   How's it looking now?


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## Mortis (Jul 23, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Updated.   How's it looking now?



Looking good.

What about skills and feats - I'm assuming that now the creature is mindless it will lose any that the base creature had?

Regards
Mortis


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## freyar (Jul 23, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> What about skills and feats - I'm assuming that now the creature is mindless it will lose any that the base creature had?




Guess so.  Unless we want to give it any racial bonuses or bonus feats, you know, just to make it a little tougher.


----------



## Shade (Jul 31, 2007)

I'd vote for losing the feats and skills.   I'm not sure it needs any particular bonus feats.  Did you have anything in particular in mind?


----------



## freyar (Aug 1, 2007)

Can't remember what I might have been thinking of.  So let's just drop the feats, etc.


----------



## Mortis (Aug 1, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Can't remember what I might have been thinking of.  So let's just drop the feats, etc.



I agree, what still needs doing?

Regards
MOrtis


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## freyar (Aug 1, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> I agree, what still needs doing?




Doesn't really look like anything from just glancing over it in homebrews, but I'll wait for Shade to pronounce judgement.  

For the next one in this thread, I'll vote for the gebbeth, at least if it's anything like Ursula Le Guin's gebbeth.


----------



## Echohawk (Aug 1, 2007)

From "The Shedu's Hall" by Matthew Parker
IMAGINE magazine #23, February 1985

New Monster

The Gebbeth

Armour Class: 0 or variable
Hit Dice: 8**
Move: 180' (60') or variable
Attacks: 1 touch or weapon
Damage: insanity, ability drain or by weapon
No. Appearing: 1
Save As: Magic User 8
Morale: 11
Treasure Type: nil
Alignment: C
XP Value: 1750

The Gebbeth is an insubstantial malevolent spirit that can only be released into the world as the result of powerful and misguided magic. When a magic user casts a summoning spell of some type, a spell involving any of the Planes or an animate dead spell, there is a 1% chance that a Gebbeth will be accidentally involved.

In its insubstantial form a Gebbeth attacks by touch. If it strikes its victim - and that victim has an intelligence of 10 or less - the Gebbeth enters the victim's mind, gaining total control of the victim's body in the process. If the attack is successful the Gebbeth 'makes itself at home' and then is raised to 18 as the creature's natural wiliness takes command. Thevictim is entitled to a saving throwvs magic wands, and if this is successful the Gebbeth cannot attack again that day.

Once in a body, the Gebbeth can use all the abilities and skills that its victim had before it took over, including any weapon handling skills and spells that were memorised at the time of the initial attack. It can only memorise half the original number of spells of a victim, eg a Gebbeth-Warlock could only memorise 3 spells at anyone time. The Gebbeth-body does not need food (but does require water), although if it doesn't eat it will become gaunt and cadaverous.

Gebbeth in possession of a body can still attack, but it can now restrain itself so as to cause less damage to a target. Each successful touch drains 1 point of Intelligence or Constitution from its target - when either of these drops to zero the victim dies. If these attacks are spread over a period of days or months - as is likely because the Gebbeth takes a positive delight in tormenting its victims if it has the chance - the victim will aiso suffer from some form of insanity, usually an irrational fear of some item connected with the Gebbeth. The Gebbeth uses this ability to weaken a foe before attempting to possess his or her body.

Gebbeths can only be hit by magical weaponry. They are not undead and cannot be turned by a cleric.

A Gebbeth has one particular 'ability' that is more terrifying than any other. In times of stress - when wounded, for example - there is a 1 in 6 chance that the creature's features will start to fade. The process takes 3 rounds in total, at the end of which the face will be completely blank. Anyone witnessing such a change should save vs spells or suffer the effects of a blight spell due to the unnerving prospect of an opponent's features altering without apparent reason.

CREDITS

Design: Matthew Parker
Editorial Butchery: Mike Brunton
Piccies: Pete Young
Maps: Paul Ruiz


----------



## freyar (Aug 1, 2007)

Thanks, Echohawk!

That is indeed a LeGuin gebbeth, and here it is on wikipedia.  If there's nothing else in line, let's do this one next!


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## Garnfellow (Aug 1, 2007)

Certainly sounds like an Outsider (extraplanar, evil, incorporeal) to me.

Just aren't enough non-undead incorporeal creatures around.


----------



## freyar (Aug 1, 2007)

Garnfellow said:
			
		

> Certainly sounds like an Outsider (extraplanar, evil, incorporeal) to me.
> 
> Just aren't enough non-undead incorporeal creatures around.




Could almost be a loumara, and people seem to want more of those.  

A bit of background information (SPOILERS for _A Wizard of Earthsea_, if you're thinking about reading it): 



Spoiler



The main character, Ged, accidentally releases a gebbeth spirit while summoning a dead spirit (as an apprentice).  It chases him around a good chunk of the known world, and then he turns and chases it.  It's not entirely clear where it comes from, but it seems related to the Old Powers, which are essentially semi-conscious spirits of the earth.


  So it's not originally tied to the usual D&D summoning of outsiders, but it could fit.


----------



## Shade (Aug 2, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Doesn't really look like anything from just glancing over it in homebrews, but I'll wait for Shade to pronounce judgement.
> 
> For the next one in this thread, I'll vote for the gebbeth, at least if it's anything like Ursula Le Guin's gebbeth.




Very well, consider it pronounced.

Echohawk had requested the golems and hylems next, but if he's OK with the diversion, so am I.


----------



## Mortis (Aug 2, 2007)

Echohawk said:
			
		

> In its insubstantial form a Gebbeth attacks by touch. If it strikes its victim - and that victim has an intelligence of 10 or less - the Gebbeth enters the victim's mind, gaining total control of the victim's body in the process. *If the attack is successful the Gebbeth 'makes itself at home' and then ?? is raised to 18 as the creature's natural wiliness takes command. * Thevictim is entitled to a saving throwvs magic wands, and if this is successful the Gebbeth cannot attack again that day.



I'm reading this as a possessed creatures Int is raised to 18 - although the article doesn't actually say what is raised - unless Echohawk missed a bit?

Assuming I am correct than I would say that the fixes the Gebbeth's Int at 18.

Regards
Mortis


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## freyar (Aug 2, 2007)

I'd agree with Mortis that the INT of this thing is 18.  Or at least a racial bonus of +8. 

Been thinking a little more about the type.  Outsider (extraplanar, evil, incorporeal) sounds right, but I'm not quite so sure about the loumara.  The original flavor from leGuin seems to imply that they are really drawn to whoever accidentally "summoned" them, almost like they are created in the botched summoning.  Not quite sure if that goes with loumara or not.

We should probably remove the bit that the victim has to have an INT of 10 or less, since otherwise the spellcasting bit is a bit weird for wizards...


----------



## Echohawk (Aug 2, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> I'm reading this as a possessed creatures Int is raised to 18 - although the article doesn't actually say what is raised - unless Echohawk missed a bit?



Nope, I just checked, and there's nothing missing. (But I agree with your interpretation.)


----------



## Mortis (Aug 2, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> We should probably remove the bit that the victim has to have an INT of 10 or less, since otherwise the spellcasting bit is a bit weird for wizards...



I agree - it will probably become on a failed Will save as part of the possession - which we can steal from the ghost 

Regards
Mortis


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## Echohawk (Aug 2, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Echohawk had requested the golems and hylems next, but if he's OK with the diversion, so am I.



I don't have any preference for what gets done next. I did suggest that the totems and hylems from that golem article might be interesting to update, but I certainly don't mind some other creatures being done first  .


----------



## Shade (Aug 2, 2007)

Echohawk said:
			
		

> I don't have any preference for what gets done next. I did suggest that the totems and hylems from that golem article might be interesting to update, but I certainly don't mind some other creatures being done first  .




So be it!


----------



## freyar (Aug 16, 2007)

Ok, for the possession ability, why don't we just pretty much use the ghost's malevolence?

First, though, I guess we want abilities.  How about Str - Con - Dex 10-12 Int 18 Wis 10-12 Cha 14-16 ?


----------



## Shade (Aug 23, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> First, though, I guess we want abilities.  How about Str - Con - Dex 10-12 Int 18 Wis 10-12 Cha 14-16 ?




If it's going to be an outsider, why no Con score?


----------



## Mortis (Aug 23, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> If it's going to be an outsider, why no Con score?



Must be an undead outsider 

I suggest Con 16

Regards
Mortis


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## freyar (Aug 24, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Must be an undead outsider
> 
> I suggest Con 16




Oh, that was just my goof-up with the incorporeality.  

Con 16 sounds good.

Adapting from the ghost:
*Possession (Su):* As a result of the gebbeth's incorporeal touch attack, the gebbeth can merge its body with a creature. This ability is similar to a magic jar spell (caster level 10th or the gebbeth’s Hit Dice, whichever is higher), except that it does not require a receptacle.  The target can resist the attack with a successful Will save (DC 15 + gebbeth’s Cha modifier). A creature that successfully saves is immune to that same gebbeth’s possession for 24 hours. If the save fails, the gebbeth vanishes into the target’s body and takes control of it.


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## freyar (Aug 24, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> *Possession (Su):* As a result of the gebbeth's incorporeal touch attack, the gebbeth can merge its body with a creature. This ability is similar to a magic jar spell (caster level 10th or the gebbeth’s Hit Dice, whichever is higher), except that it does not require a receptacle.  The target can resist the attack with a successful Will save (DC 15 + gebbeth’s Cha modifier). A creature that successfully saves is immune to that same gebbeth’s possession for 24 hours. If the save fails, the gebbeth vanishes into the target’s body and takes control of it.




Actually, I think we need to edit from _magic jar_ a little, after looking at the spell description.

*Possession (Su):* As a result of the gebbeth's incorporeal touch attack, the gebbeth can merge its body with a creature (as part of the attack action). This ability is similar to a _magic jar_ spell (caster level 10th or the gebbeth’s Hit Dice, whichever is higher), except that it does not require a receptacle and as noted below.  The target can resist the attack with a successful Will save (DC 15 + gebbeth’s Cha modifier). A creature that successfully saves is immune to that same gebbeth’s possession for 24 hours. If the save fails, the gebbeth vanishes into the target’s body and takes control of it.

Unlike the _magic jar_ spell, the gebbeth can use all the target's special abilities (Ex, Su, and Sp included) and can access the target's skills and feats.  If the target is a spell caster, the gebbeth can use any spells that the victim has prepared at the time of possession; the gebbeth can also cast and prepare arcane spells as normal for the victim.

How does it look?  And do you think we should put in the 1/2 for the number of spells prepared as in the original description?


----------



## Shade (Aug 24, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.

I boosted the stats a bit, as it is more powerful than both a wraith and spectre (other incorporeal benchmarks).

It's AC tranlates to 20 if we stick to the conversion guidelines.  Currently with Dex 16 and Cha 18, its AC is 17.  We could boost these stats further, give it a +3 profane bonus to make up the difference, or just stick with 17.   What do you think?


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## freyar (Aug 25, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I boosted the stats a bit, as it is more powerful than both a wraith and spectre (other incorporeal benchmarks).




Hmmm, I guess you're comparing to an older edition of the wraith or spectre.  This just seems too different for me to compare...  OTOH, this was supposed to be a pretty nasty thing.



> It's AC tranlates to 20 if we stick to the conversion guidelines.  Currently with Dex 16 and Cha 18, its AC is 17.  We could boost these stats further, give it a +3 profane bonus to make up the difference, or just stick with 17.   What do you think?




Let's bump the AC up to 20.  Why not?

For the touch attack while possessing a body:

*Corporeal Touch (Su):* A gebbeth in possession of a body has a touch attack, as well.  The victim must make a Will save (DC 15 + gebbeth’s Cha modifier) or suffer 1 point of either Int or Con drain (gebbeth's choice).  When either Int or Con is reduced to 0 by this drain, the victim dies.

Or should we just call this Ability Drain?


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## freyar (Aug 28, 2007)

For a little more progress (I guess I'm the only one interested in this monster  )...



> A Gebbeth has one particular 'ability' that is more terrifying than any other. In times of stress - when wounded, for example - there is a 1 in 6 chance that the creature's features will start to fade. The process takes 3 rounds in total, at the end of which the face will be completely blank. Anyone witnessing such a change should save vs spells or suffer the effects of a blight spell due to the unnerving prospect of an opponent's features altering without apparent reason.




The 3.5e _blight_ clearly isn't what we want, unless the witness is a plant.   Not sure what the appropriate level spell should be (the current blight is 4th/5th level, depending on the spell list), but I'll choose _doom_ because the flavor seems right.  

*Unnerving Fade (Su):* When in stress (as determined by the DM, for example when wounded), there is a 1 in 6 chance per round (cumulative) that the possessed creature's features will fade.  At the end of three rounds, the face will be completely blank.  Anyone observing this fading is affected as if by a _doom_ spell (CL 3rd, DC 18) (The DC is 10+1/2 HD + Cha modifier).  The gebbeth has no control over this ability.


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## GrayLinnorm (Aug 28, 2007)

In D&D, blight was the reverse of bless.  Doom certainly fits.


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## freyar (Aug 29, 2007)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> In D&D, blight was the reverse of bless.  Doom certainly fits.




Probably should be _bane_, then, but _doom_ seems a little better, given that this is supposed to be spooky and all.  Thanks!


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## Shade (Aug 29, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> For a little more progress (I guess I'm the only one interested in this monster  )...




I got a bit behind on this one so I'm still playing catch up.

I'll compile all your ideas in Homebrew for ease-of-reference.


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## Shade (Aug 29, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Let's bump the AC up to 20.  Why not?




So...+3 profane bonus to make up the difference?  Or bump Dex to 18 and Cha to 22?



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> For the touch attack while possessing a body:
> 
> *Corporeal Touch (Su):* A gebbeth in possession of a body has a touch attack, as well.  The victim must make a Will save (DC 15 + gebbeth’s Cha modifier) or suffer 1 point of either Int or Con drain (gebbeth's choice).  When either Int or Con is reduced to 0 by this drain, the victim dies.
> 
> Or should we just call this Ability Drain?




I'd go with ability drain and just state that its incorporeal touch becomes a melee touch when used in possession of a body.


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## Mortis (Aug 29, 2007)

Freyar said:
			
		

> (I guess I'm the only one interested in this monster  )



I wouldn't say that - I've had a nice long weekend off - back to work today.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> So...+3 profane bonus to make up the difference?  Or bump Dex to 18 and Cha to 22?



Bump the stats


> I'd go with ability drain and just state that its incorporeal touch becomes a melee touch when used in possession of a body.



Wouldn't/shouldn't it lose the incorporeal subtype whilst possessing a body?

Regards
Mortis


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## freyar (Aug 29, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Wouldn't/shouldn't it lose the incorporeal subtype whilst possessing a body?




Yeah, we should probably note that in possession blurb.

Glad to know others are interested after all!  This monster is kind of a pet project for me; I'd thought about writing it up even before I knew there was a version floating around already...


----------



## dhaga (Aug 31, 2007)

With the Unnerving Fade ability -- if the Gebbeth is driven out of the body, does the body gain its features back?  This should be included in the descriptive text for the ability.


----------



## freyar (Aug 31, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> With the Unnerving Fade ability -- if the Gebbeth is driven out of the body, does the body gain its features back?  This should be included in the descriptive text for the ability.




Good idea.  The original text isn't specific about driving the gebbeth out or even if the possessed creature dies if the possessed body is reduced to 0 hp.  Probably should work this out via _magic jar_ and add it to the description of possession, too.


----------



## dhaga (Aug 31, 2007)

I would say if the body is reduced to 0 hp, it would die, and the original soul would not be able to return to the body.  The next question is: what happens to the gebbeth at that point?  I would say it would be driven out, but probably not killed; just as a ghost does not die if its possessed vessel dies.


----------



## freyar (Aug 31, 2007)

Yeah, I agree.  Another try:

*Possession (Su):* As a result of the gebbeth's incorporeal touch attack, the gebbeth can merge its body with a creature (as part of the attack action). This ability is similar to a _magic jar_ spell (caster level 10th or the gebbeth’s Hit Dice, whichever is higher), except that it does not require a receptacle and as noted below. The target can resist the attack with a successful Will save (DC 15 + gebbeth’s Cha modifier). A creature that successfully saves is immune to that same gebbeth’s possession for 24 hours. If the save fails, the gebbeth vanishes into the target’s body and takes control of it, losing the incorporeal subtype.

Unlike the _magic jar_ spell, the gebbeth can use all the target's special abilities (Ex, Su, and Sp included) and can access the target's skills and feats. If the target is a spell caster, the gebbeth can use any spells that the victim has prepared at the time of possession; the gebbeth can also cast and prepare arcane spells as normal for the victim.  If the body is reduced to 0hp, the possessed creature dies and the gebbeth becomes incorporeal again.  In addition, the gebbeth can be forced out of the possessed creature by a successful _dismissal_ or _banishment_ spell or similar magic.

*Ability Drain (Su):* A gebbeth in possession of a body has a touch attack, as well. The victim must make a Will save (DC 15 + gebbeth’s Cha modifier) or suffer 1 point of either Int or Con drain (gebbeth's choice). When either Int or Con is reduced to 0 by this drain, the victim dies.


----------



## dhaga (Sep 4, 2007)

The Possession text looks much more complete now  
Any ideas for Unnerving Fade? Do the features return, or does the victim need to suffer through life faceless?  Victim loses true sight, gains Blindsight instead?  Not sure how breathing or eating would work...

I'm all for flavor, but I think the victim should get his facial features back if the gebbeth is driven out.  Maybe they could slowly fade back in.  That's creepy...


----------



## freyar (Sep 5, 2007)

Yeah, got interrupted in the middle of that last post and just haven't had much chance to get back to conversions.  Anyway, updating:

*Unnerving Fade (Su)*: When in stress (as determined by the DM, for example when wounded), there is a 1 in 6 chance per round (cumulative) that the possessed creature's features will fade. At the end of three rounds, the face will be completely blank. Anyone observing this fading is affected as if by a doom spell (CL 3rd, DC 18) (The DC is 10+1/2 HD + Cha modifier). The gebbeth has no control over this ability.  When the gebbeth is no longer under stress, or if it is driven from the possessed body, the facial appearance returns to normal over a three round period.


----------



## Shade (Sep 5, 2007)

Updated in Homebrews.


----------



## freyar (Sep 5, 2007)

Great!  I'll work on some flavor text this evening; I think we've got the signature abilities down pretty well.  I suppose there's the possibility of DR, immunities, and/or resistances, but we're mostly done I think.


----------



## freyar (Sep 7, 2007)

Time to sit and work on the flavor text, finally:

_The madman lunges at you, his face a rictus of pain from the wounds you've inflicted.  Suddenly, all of his facial features blur and start to fade away..._

The gebbeth is a malevolent outsider native to X, which enters the material plane only as a result of powerful, but misguided, magic.  Any time a summoning spell or a spell used to create or animate undead is used, there is a chance that a gebbeth can be released, at which point it attempts to possess the mage who inadvertently summoned it.  If that is not possible, the gebbeth will not hesitate to possess someone else in order to cause mayhem, though they often become obsessed with possessing their summoner.

In its incorporeal form, a gebbeth appears to be a shadow, but it is not undead.

Edit: X should be one of the more chaotic of the NE planes (or more N of the CE planes).


----------



## Shade (Sep 10, 2007)

We could just go with "a nonlawful, evil plane" for X.


----------



## freyar (Sep 10, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> We could just go with "a nonlawful, evil plane" for X.




Sounds fine to me.

Noticed that the DCs for possession and unnerving fade are off.  Let's make the possession DC Cha based, just 10+1/2 HD + Cha mod.  And following that formula, the unnerving fade DC should be 20.

Feats and skills?


----------



## Shade (Sep 14, 2007)

Updated in Homebrews.

For feats, I'd go with Ability Focus (possession), Flyby Attack, and either Iron Will or Improved Critical (incorporeal touch).

For skills, at the very least, I'd say Bluff, Disguise, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot.


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## freyar (Sep 14, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> For feats, I'd go with Ability Focus (possession), Flyby Attack, and either Iron Will or Improved Critical (incorporeal touch).
> 
> For skills, at the very least, I'd say Bluff, Disguise, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot.




Since the only damage from the incorporeal touch is possession, let's go with Iron Will.  Ability Focus and Flyby Attack sound ok, too.

The max ranks in each skill is 11, so maxing those out still leaves us with 43 by your count.  I'd also give it Spellcraft, Use Magic Device, and Concentration at max, which leaves 10 more ranks to spread around.  Something like Hide or Intimidate?


----------



## Shade (Sep 20, 2007)

Good point on the feats.

Hide and Intimidate both seem like good fits.


----------



## freyar (Sep 20, 2007)

Let's split the remaining 10 points between Hide and Intimidate, then.  

Going with ability focus (possession) for one of the feats should bump up that DC.  Otherwise, I'll write up some tactics text, and we're basically done.  

I'd go with Treasure: none (or as victim), LA: -, and Advancement: 9-24 Medium.  CR?


----------



## Shade (Sep 20, 2007)

Updated in Homebrews.

CR 6?


----------



## freyar (Sep 21, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> CR 6?




Sounds about right to me.  I guess we're done!


----------



## Shade (Sep 21, 2007)

Great!  Moving on, we'll hit the variant golems from Imagine #19.   Here's the first...

*Gem Hylem*
Freq:  very rare
# App:  1
AC:  -2
Move:  18"/18" (MC: A) 
Hit Dice: 8
% In Lair:  Nil
Treasure Type:  Nil
# Attacks:  1
Dmg/Att:  2-20
SA:  Spells
SD:  +2 or better weapon to hit
MR:  40%
Int:  Semi-
Align:  Neutral
Size:  S (2-6 inches)
Psionics:  Nil
Level/XP Value:  VII/1920

The makers of gem hylems are exclusively illusionists of at least 14th level.  They take 1 month to create, costing 25,000 gp in the process.  The illusionist, assuming there is no magical tome available to enable a short cut to be taken, needs to cast the following spells:  major creation, light, fear, confusion, maze, demi-shadow magic, and alter reality.  Like their cousins, they understand and obey all commands given by their creator.

At will, gem hylems can once per round use the following abilities:  light, fear, confusion, and maze; as a 10th level illusionist.  In addition, the hylem can attack once per round with a lightning strike (no save) for 2-20 damage; it has a range of 6".  Only hit by +2 or better weapons, but blunt weapons cause double damage.  On destroying (deactivating) they hylem, a 5,000 gp gem will be left in its place.

Description:  These animated beings appear as perfect examples of their gem type, though they are found constantly spinning furiously in the air.

From Imagine Magazine #19, October 1984.


----------



## dhaga (Sep 21, 2007)

> Description: These animated beings appear as perfect examples of their gem type, though they are found constantly spinning furiously in the air.




I am trying to picture these creatures in my mind.  Are they just little gems, or little gems with little arms, legs, and heads?


----------



## Shade (Sep 21, 2007)

I believe they are little gems.

Here's some additonal text from the introduction to the article:



> It is possible, however, to produce animate 'non-living' beings, for example a witch's broom.  This last group, which has been neglected to a large degree in the past, I have titled Hylem, short for hylomorphic animation.






> Hylems
> 
> These are objects that are animated, but are not in the form of living creatures.  Hylems are seen with an ephemeral existence among a number of spells like: animate object, animate rock, wizard's ey, and the Bigby's hand spells.  Furthermore, this animation is also present in a number of magic items, namely:  broom of animated attack, broom of flying, carpet of flying, ioun stones, Quaal's feather tokens, magical ropes and even a sword of dancing...It seems that hylems are classed as magic items rather than monsters.  With most examples, this is very plausible, but what of those that can be given limited commands, specific to a situation, and act upon them accordingly.  One such hylomorphic being is the gem hylem


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## dhaga (Sep 21, 2007)

Initial thoughts:

Type: Diminutive Construct
Movement: Fly x ft. (Perfect)
Attack: Electric Ray (ranged touch) 3d6
Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: DR 10 / magic and bludgeoning, Immune to Electricity

Spell-like abilities: Cast as Xth level sorcerer. At will – Light.  3/day – Fear, Confusion

Roll on 1dx on table to determine what variety of gem the Hylem is created from (and therefore what type it leaves behind when destroyed):
Ruby
Emerald
Sapphire
Diamond
Topaz
Amethyst
etc


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## Mortis (Sep 22, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> Roll on 1dx on table to determine what variety of gem the Hylem is created from (and therefore what type it leaves behind when destroyed):
> Ruby
> Emerald
> Sapphire
> ...



Maybe we could elaborate on the initial gem hylems and give them spells/spell-like abilities based on their respective gem dragon? Or perhaps they could be a 'sub-species' created from gem dragon scales rather than real gems?

Regards
Mortis


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## RavinRay (Sep 23, 2007)

Hmm, fluff-wise they seem like magical counterparts of psicrystals. If we go by Mortis' suggestion we can give them low-level spell-like abilities that are either the closest analogs of gem dragon psionics or spells that are used as psi-like abilities. Some examples.

amethyst: _invisibility, suggestion_
crystal/quartz: _charm person, color spray_
emerald: _fog cloud, legend lore_
sapphire: _detect teleporation_ (as _detect scrying_, but for teleportation effects only
topaz: _feather fall_


----------



## dhaga (Sep 24, 2007)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> If we go by Mortis' suggestion we can give them low-level spell-like abilities that are either the closest analogs of gem dragon psionics or spells that are used as psi-like abilities.




I like this idea.


----------



## freyar (Sep 26, 2007)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> Hmm, fluff-wise they seem like magical counterparts of psicrystals. If we go by Mortis' suggestion we can give them low-level spell-like abilities that are either the closest analogs of gem dragon psionics or spells that are used as psi-like abilities. Some examples.
> 
> amethyst: _invisibility, suggestion_
> crystal/quartz: _charm person, color spray_
> ...




If we're going to stick to the "created by illusionists" bit from the original text, would it be more flavorful to keep these mostly to illusion spells?  Or at least give each one an illusion spell?


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## dhaga (Sep 26, 2007)

Freyar said:
			
		

> If we're going to stick to the "created by illusionists" bit from the original text, would it be more flavorful to keep these mostly to illusion spells? Or at least give each one an illusion spell?




Good point.  I would think each one should have something drawn from the Illusion school, maybe in addition to another spell or 2, in keeping with the original flavor.


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## Mortis (Sep 27, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> If we're going to stick to the "created by illusionists" bit from the original text, would it be more flavorful to keep these mostly to illusion spells?  Or at least give each one an illusion spell?



I wasn't too clear in my post above - I don't think that we should do away with the link to illusionists but perhaps have another version/subspecies that are based around the gem dragons.

That said, I agree that each of the original hylems should have one (at least) illusion based ability - even better if we could tie in those abilities based on the gem type.

Regards
Mortis


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## freyar (Sep 27, 2007)

Why don't we replace _fog cloud_ with _minor image_ (or major?) for the emerald, give the sapphire _hypnotic pattern_ or _ventriloquism_, and give the topaz _silence_ or _phantom trap_?  I'm just throwing ideas around, since I don't quite remember the flavor of each of these dragons (and am at work)...


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## Shade (Oct 2, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.

I like the suggestion of sticking with the illusionist for the standard gem hylem, and making gem dragon variants.

Thoughst on ability scores?   We know they are Semi-intelligent (Int 2-4), and have no Con score as constructs.   Str should be very low, and Dex probably high.  Cha should be decent as well (several mindless golems I spot checked have Cha in the 13-15 range), and Wis is often 11 for golems.


----------



## freyar (Oct 2, 2007)

I'd go with Str 1 Dex 20 Con - Int 4 Wis 11 Cha 15 or something like that.

Gem dragons as variants sounds good, too.


----------



## dhaga (Oct 2, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> I'd go with Str 1 Dex 20 Con - Int 4 Wis 11 Cha 15 or something like that.




I'd say those stats look fair.

If we agree on those stats, that will help complete Init, Armor Class, ranged touch...

For feats, how about Weapon Focus (Ray), Spell Focus (Illusion), +1 more?

I'm not sure what skills would be useful for such a creature.

We'll need to determine how many different kinds of gem hylems there are. As many as there are of gem dragons?  How many is that?


----------



## Shade (Oct 2, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> I'd say those stats look fair.




Me too.



			
				dhaga said:
			
		

> If we agree on those stats, that will help complete Init, Armor Class, ranged touch...




Indeed.    



			
				dhaga said:
			
		

> For feats, how about Weapon Focus (Ray), Spell Focus (Illusion), +1 more?




Weapon Focus sounds good.  I'd avoid Spell Focus, as about half the official rulings don't think it applies to spell-like abilities.



			
				dhaga said:
			
		

> I'm not sure what skills would be useful for such a creature.




Concentration would be useful since it has SLAs and no Con bonus.



			
				dhaga said:
			
		

> We'll need to determine how many different kinds of gem hylems there are. As many as there are of gem dragons?  How many is that?




Five...six if you count the obsidian from WotC's website...seven if you count Sardior.


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## dhaga (Oct 2, 2007)

6 would be a good number; 1d6 to determine its type randomly is easier than 1d5 

Is there a "Spell-like Ability Focus" feat to help boost the SLAs?

We could boost its ray attack further with Point Blank Shot, though something to better its SLAs would be useful.

I agree Concentration would be a good skill; we could dump all its skill points into it, I think.


----------



## freyar (Oct 3, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> 6 would be a good number; 1d6 to determine its type randomly is easier than 1d5




There's the ectoplasmic dragon, which is also psionic (basically a gem dragon), but neither obsidian or ectoplasm are really gems. 



> Is there a "Spell-like Ability Focus" feat to help boost the SLAs?



Ability Focus would work, wouldn't it?


----------



## RavinRay (Oct 3, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I like the suggestion of sticking with the illusionist for the standard gem hylem, and making gem dragon variants.



Well, if we're talking about illusions, the aboleth and blue dragon have illusory spell-like abilities we can use for comparison.


			
				freyar said:
			
		

> There's the ectoplasmic dragon, which is also psionic (basically a gem dragon), but neither obsidian or ectoplasm are really gems.



I'm a bit surprised the ectoplasmic dragon isn't more like the planar dragons (it is extraplanar in origin), otherwise it wouldn't have psion manifesting levels but more psi-like abilities instead. Obsidian, while it can be used for jewelry, isn't a mineral like the other gems (crystal is quartze) but a glass because it doesn't have a ordered internal structure. That's why I consider it the aberrant gem dragon just as the brown dragon is the aberrant chromatic dragon and the steel dragon is the aberrant metallic dragon.


----------



## freyar (Oct 4, 2007)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> I'm a bit surprised the ectoplasmic dragon isn't more like the planar dragons (it is extraplanar in origin), otherwise it wouldn't have psion manifesting levels but more psi-like abilities instead. Obsidian, while it can be used for jewelry, isn't a mineral like the other gems (crystal is quartze) but a glass because it doesn't have a ordered internal structure. That's why I consider it the aberrant gem dragon just as the brown dragon is the aberrant chromatic dragon and the steel dragon is the aberrant metallic dragon.




This all makes sense to me.  For the hylems, then, why don't we say roll 1d6 to determine the type, where the type is either "standard" or a variant keyed to one of the five ordinary gem dragons?


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## dhaga (Oct 4, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> For the hylems, then, why don't we say roll 1d6 to determine the type, where the type is either "standard" or a variant keyed to one of the five ordinary gem dragons?



Sounds like a good way to go.  Now we need to flesh out which abilities which types have available.

We need to finish off those feats, too.  Ability Focus (most useful SLA), Weapon Focus (Ray), +1.  I put forth Point Blank Shot, but I'm sure there are other ideas


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## Shade (Oct 9, 2007)

Updated Homebrews with the ability scores decided upon above.

Quicken SLA or Empower SLA could also be a decent feat, if feasible based on our SLA selection and caster level.


----------



## dhaga (Oct 10, 2007)

If many of their SLAs end up being illusion-based, I would think Quicken SLA would be better than Empower SLA.  Or maybe something to increase duration.

Does anyone have a list of the gem dragon SLAs / abilities, by type?


----------



## Shade (Oct 10, 2007)

Amethyst (psionics only)--invisibility, suggestion.
Crystal--color spray, control winds.
Emerald--legend lore, fog cloud, improved invisibility, sculpt sound.
Sapphire--stone shape, move earth, wall of stone.
Topaz--control winds, fog cloud, control weather.


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## dhaga (Oct 15, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Amethyst (psionics only)--invisibility, suggestion.
> Crystal--color spray, control winds.
> Emerald--legend lore, fog cloud, improved invisibility, sculpt sound.
> Sapphire--stone shape, move earth, wall of stone.
> Topaz--control winds, fog cloud, control weather.




The hylems are not very intelligent, so they should probably have SLAs that do not require a high intelligence to use effectively.

For our matching hylems, how about:
Amethyst -- invisibility
Crystal -- color spray
Emerald -- improved invisibility
Sapphire -- wall of stone
Topaz -- fog cloud

They can have a few other SLAs, as well, but the ones matching their gem dragon type should be their primary abilities, probably usable more times per day than the others.

Ideas for SLAs for the "standard" variant?


----------



## Shade (Oct 15, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> The hylems are not very intelligent, so they should probably have SLAs that do not require a high intelligence to use effectively.
> 
> For our matching hylems, how about:
> Amethyst -- invisibility
> ...




I've lost track of this one.   Are we going with the following as standard for all gem hylems...



			
				Imagine Magazine said:
			
		

> At will, gem hylems can once per round use the following abilities: light, fear, confusion, and maze; as a 10th level illusionist.




...and adding additional abilities based on gem type?    Or are the abilities you listed intended to be replacements for the variant hylems?


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## dhaga (Oct 15, 2007)

I guess I kind of lost track, too   

They are intended to supplement the standard abilities, to make each variant slightly unique.


----------



## freyar (Oct 16, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> They are intended to supplement the standard abilities, to make each variant slightly unique.




The problem I see is that these SLAs are of different powers (just check spell level).  Does that bother anyone else?  Also, do we want to give the "standard" variant an extra SLA to match?

In addition, I don't think 10th level illusionists can case _maze_ in 3.X, since it's 8th level.  Does anyone have a different idea?


----------



## Shade (Oct 16, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> The problem I see is that these SLAs are of different powers (just check spell level).  Does that bother anyone else?  Also, do we want to give the "standard" variant an extra SLA to match?




Good question.  Let's address this first...



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> In addition, I don't think 10th level illusionists can case _maze_ in 3.X, since it's 8th level.  Does anyone have a different idea?




Maze is a bit high for an 8-HD creature.  On the other hand, it doesn't really cause any permanent harm.

Here are several possiblities:


Drop maze and replace it with mirage arcana (which is also more of an illusion spell than maze)
Create a "lesser maze" effect
Stick with maze and not sweat the fact that it's 8th-level


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## freyar (Oct 16, 2007)

I think I like _mirage arcana_ a bit better, but I'd be ok with sticking to _maze_.  Making a "lesser maze" seems like a bit much work.

As for the other stuff, I think I was mostly thrown by maze, though the listed SLAs go from 1st to 5th level.


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## Shade (Oct 16, 2007)

Trying to compile this:

Spell-Like Abilities:  At will--confusion (DC 16), fear (DC 16), light, mirage arcana (DC 17).  Caster level 10th.  The save DCs are Charisma-based.

How about we make the variant spell-like abilities based on the gem drgaons replace mirage arcana?   Mirage arcana can be the spell-like ability for the "illusion" variant.


----------



## dhaga (Oct 16, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> How about we make the variant spell-like abilities based on the gem drgaons replace mirage arcana? Mirage arcana can be the spell-like ability for the "illusion" variant.



That sounds fair to me.


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## freyar (Oct 17, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Trying to compile this:
> 
> Spell-Like Abilities:  At will--confusion (DC 16), fear (DC 16), light, mirage arcana (DC 17).  Caster level 10th.  The save DCs are Charisma-based.
> 
> How about we make the variant spell-like abilities based on the gem drgaons replace mirage arcana?   Mirage arcana can be the spell-like ability for the "illusion" variant.




Also good here.  But I'd like to bump them all up to around 5th level.  Color spray is just lousy compared to mirage arcana.


----------



## Shade (Oct 17, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Also good here.  But I'd like to bump them all up to around 5th level.  Color spray is just lousy compared to mirage arcana.




Fair enough.  Let's revisit the gem dragons' abilities, including the psioncs and special SLAs as well this time:

Amethyst--invisibility, suggestion (psionics); amethyst telekinesis, explosive gem, body equilibrium (special SLAs)
Crystal--color spray, control winds (SLAs); charm person, domination (psionics)
Emerald--legend lore, fog cloud, improved invisibility, sculpt sound (SLAs); nondetection, clairaudience/clairvoyance (psionics); shield of prudence (special SLA)
Sapphire--stone shape, move earth, wall of stone (SLAs); teleport (psionic); skate (special SLA)
Topaz--control winds, fog cloud, control weather (SLAs); shapechange, feather fall (psionics); 

So maybe...

Amethyst = telekinesis
Crystal = charm monster
Emerald = greater invisibility
Sapphire = wall of stone
Topaz = control winds


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## dhaga (Oct 17, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Amethyst = telekinesis
> Crystal = charm monster
> Emerald = greater invisibility
> Sapphire = wall of stone
> Topaz = control winds



That looks like a good lineup to me.


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## Mortis (Oct 18, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> So maybe...
> 
> Amethyst = telekinesis
> Crystal = charm monster
> ...



Looks good

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Oct 18, 2007)

Updated Homebrews.

It looks like we still need the following...

spell resistance x

Feats: Weapon Focus (ray), 2 more

Challenge Rating: x

Treasure: A single gemstone worth X gp

Advancement: x

A gem hylem is 2-6 inches long and weighs x pounds.


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## Mortis (Oct 18, 2007)

SR: 18
Feats: Weapon Focus (ray) + Quicken SLA, Dodge
CR: 6
Treasure: 1,000 gp?
Advancement: 9-12 HD (diminuitive)
Weight: 1/2 pound or 1 pound?

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Oct 18, 2007)

I like all that.   Since CL is 10th, Quicken SLA can apply to a 1st-level spell or lower, so light is the only one we can quicken.  Do you want to go with that, or try a different feat (like Mobility or Iron Will)?


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## Mortis (Oct 18, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I like all that.   Since CL is 10th, Quicken SLA can apply to a 1st-level spell or lower, so light is the only one we can quicken.  Do you want to go with that, or try a different feat (like Mobility or Iron Will)?



Probably go with Mobility then.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Oct 18, 2007)

On to Construction



			
				Imagine Magazine said:
			
		

> The makers of gem hylems are exclusively illusionists of at least 14th level.  They take 1 month to create, costing 25,000 gp in the process.  The illusionist, assuming there is no magical tome available to enable a short cut to be taken, needs to cast the following spells:  major creation, light, fear, confusion, maze, demi-shadow magic, and alter reality.  Like their cousins, they understand and obey all commands given by their creator.




It looks like alot of the work has been done for us!

A gem hylem is crafted from a single gem of exceptional quality, and costs 5,000 gp. Assembling the body requires a DC X Craft (gemcutting) check.

CL 14th; Craft Construct, cause fear, confusion, fabricate, light, mirage arcana, caster must be at least 14th level; Price x gp; Cost 25,000 gp + x XP.

*Variant gem hylems replace mirage arcana with their granted spell-like ability as a prerequisie spell.




			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Treasure: A single gemstone worth X gp






			
				Imagine Magazine said:
			
		

> On destroying (deactivating) they hylem, a 5,000 gp gem will be left in its place.




Well that answers that.


----------



## Mortis (Oct 18, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> It looks like alot of the work has been done for us!



Nice!



> Well that answers that.



It certainly does.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## dhaga (Oct 18, 2007)

These guys look done to me.  Sweet


----------



## Shade (Oct 18, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> These guys look done to me.  Sweet




Not quite...    

We still need the DC for the Craft (gemcutting) check.

Also, check my math on the market price and XP cost.

A gem hylem is crafted from a single gem of exceptional quality, and costs 5,000 gp. Assembling the body requires a DC X Craft (gemcutting) check.

CL 14th; Craft Construct, cause fear, confusion, fabricate, light, mirage arcana, caster must be at least 14th level; Price 40,000 gp; Cost 25,000 gp + 1,600 XP.


----------



## Shade (Oct 19, 2007)

Looking at other golems in that CR range, a DC 15 check seems reasonable.  Sound good?


----------



## Mortis (Oct 19, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Sound good?



Yes

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2007)

Next!

*Totems*

This group holds a greater potential for DMs to be inventive, dealing with animations in the form of beasts.  Transient examples as seen in spells are few, but include:  sticks to snakes, live oak; simulacrum is an example that is permanent in effect.  As with hylems, there are corresponding magical items, for example, the figurines of wondrous power or Quaal's feather token (bird).  Also there exist monsters that possess related powers which can induce temporary theriomorphic animations (see treant and algoid).  Permanently animated theriomorphic beings are not particularly numerous in the bestiaries (see homonculus, iron cobra, and necrophidius). 

*Rock Totem*
Freq:  Very rare
# App: 1
AC: 2
Move: Variable
HD: Variable
% in lair: Nil
Treasure Type: Nil
# Att:  Variable
Dmg/Att:  1-10
SA:  Variable
SD:  See below
Int:  Average
Alignment:  Neutral
Size: Variable
Psionics:  Nil
Level/xp value: Varies
Save As: Cleric 9
Morale:  12

These are fashioned from rock in the guise of the animal chosen by the creator.  They can only be constructed by name-level druids, unless a magical tome is employed.  These totems are slightly unusual in the fact that they are intelligent, and can think for themselves and are capable of speech.  They are totally loyal to their maker.

The type of animal sculpted can be anything from the range which the druid himself can shapechange into.  It takes 1 month to construct such a totem and requires the following spells to be cast:  detect poison, shape rock, animate rock, commune with nature, and reincarnate.  The only material cost incurred by the druid is the need of 2 jewels (worth 5,000 gp each) for the eyes.

Totems communicate in both common and druidic tongue.  They possess average intelligence and wisdom, so that the finished totem mimics the chosen animal in all attributes except mentality.  If the creator concentrates upon his totem while it is within 20" he will be able to see through its eyes.  All rock totems can detect poison, as a 6th level druid.

A rock totem can only be hit by +3 or better weapons.  Furthermore, only a limited retinue of spells can actually affect them:  rock to mud will destroy the totem if it fails its save vs. spell, while stone to flesh changes its armor class to that of the mimicked animal.  For example, if a druid had created a rock totem in the form of a stag, then the armor class change would be from 2 to 7.  This change is permanent unless the magic is dispelled or reversed.  All rock totems save as 12th level druids.

Basic:  As above (using campaign rules for the creation of the totem), except that passwall is the only spell that will destroy it.  Also, the rock totem can neutralize poison three times a month.

From Imagine Magazine #19, October 1984.


----------



## freyar (Oct 19, 2007)

I'll assume that basic means basic D&D rules vs AD&D.

So, DR 10/magic?  I think there should be SLA _neutralize poison_ 1/week.  Also _detect poison_ at will (if not as a different kind of special ability).  

*Telepathic Link (Su):*  By concentrating as a standard action, the druid creator can see through the eyes of his or her rock totems if they are within 20 ft.

*Magic Immunity (Su):* Rock totems are immune to spells except as follows: _passwall_ and _transmute rock to mud_ destroy rock totems, and _stone to flesh_ reduces the natural armor bonus of the rock totem to that of the base creature (on a failed save).

And this should probably be a template applied to any animal, huh?


----------



## Shade (Oct 19, 2007)

Yep, Basic refers to Basic D&D.

That all looks good.

Inherited template, eh?

Type changes to construct?

Average Int = 8-10

"They possess average intelligence and wisdom":  8-10 here as well?


----------



## freyar (Oct 19, 2007)

I'd say yes to all of the above.


----------



## Shade (Oct 22, 2007)

Note that the rock totem is listed as having a single attack at 1d10, but it doesn't appear to have an explanantion for why.

This gives us some flexibility.   Which of the following would you prefer?

1.)  Stick with the base animal's natural attacks, unmodified.
2.)  Grant Improved Natural Attack as a bonus feat to one or more of the base animal's natural attacks.
3.)  Replace the base animal's natural attacks with a slam attack.
4.)  Something else


----------



## Mortis (Oct 22, 2007)

I vote for

3.)  Replace the base animal's natural attacks with a slam attack.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## freyar (Oct 22, 2007)

Either option 2 or 3, with a slight preference for option 2.


----------



## dhaga (Oct 22, 2007)

#2 would be nicer for flavor, I think. I vote #2.
Though if the masses choose #3, I won't be too disappointed


----------



## Shade (Oct 23, 2007)

Since the scales are slightly tipped toward option #2, and I think that would be my preference as well, let's go with option #2.

Summarizing a bit...

"Rock totem" is an inherited template that can be applied to any animal (referred to hereafter as the "base creature"). A rock totem uses all the base creature's statistics and special abilities except as noted here

Size and Type: The creature's type changes to construct.

Armor Class: The base creature’s natural armor bonus improves by +x.

Special Qualities: A rock totem retains the special qualities of the base creature, and also gains the following qualities.

Damage reduction 10/magic

Detect Poison (Su):  A rock totem continually detects poison (as the spell).

Spell-Like Abilities:  1/week - neutralize poison.

Magic Immunity (Su): Rock totems are immune to spells except as follows: passwall and transmute rock to mud destroy rock totems, and stone to flesh reduces the natural armor bonus of the rock totem to that of the base creature (on a failed save).

Telepathic Link (Su): By concentrating as a standard action, the druid creator can see through the eyes of his or her rock totems if they are within 20 ft.

Ability Scores:  Increase the creature's Intelligence and Wisdom scores to 9 (unless already better).  As a construct, the a rock totem has no Constitution score.

Feats: A rock totem gains Improved Natural Attack as a bonus feat for all its natural attacks.

Challenge Rating:  +x


----------



## dhaga (Oct 23, 2007)

Looks good, Shade.
+4 natural armor?


----------



## freyar (Oct 24, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Armor Class: The base creature’s natural armor bonus improves by +x.




+4 might be good here, or maybe even +6.  The original AC is 2 (or 18 in 3e); what's the usual natural armor bonus for animals?

Not sure about the CR bonus. Hmmm.


----------



## Shade (Oct 24, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> +4 might be good here, or maybe even +6. The original AC is 2 (or 18 in 3e); what's the usual natural armor bonus for animals?




It varies quite a bit, from +0 for bats to +12 for dire hippopotami.

Looking at similar templates...

Earth element creature improves by +3.
Mineral warrior improves by +3.

Revived fossil is based on size:
Tiny, Diminutive, Fine +6 
Small +9 
Medium +12 
Large +15 
Huge +18 
Gargantuan +24 
Colossal +30


----------



## dhaga (Oct 25, 2007)

Basing on size is a good idea for some templates.  I think Rock Totems should have a static increase.  I'd say +4 or +6.


----------



## Shade (Oct 25, 2007)

Let's run with +4.


----------



## freyar (Oct 25, 2007)

Sounds fine to me.


----------



## dhaga (Oct 25, 2007)

What's left on this one, just construction?


----------



## Shade (Oct 25, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.

Construction definitely remains.

Also:

"These totems are slightly unusual in the fact that they are intelligent, and can think for themselves and are capable of speech."

"Totems communicate in both common and druidic tongue."


----------



## dhaga (Oct 25, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> "These totems are slightly unusual in the fact that they are intelligent, and can think for themselves and are capable of speech."
> 
> "Totems communicate in both common and druidic tongue."




We did state the Int increases to 9.  We can add that the animal gains the ability to speak both the common and druidic languages (but will only speak druidic to druids, to maintain the secrecy of the language?)


----------



## freyar (Oct 25, 2007)

Well, let's just add that Rock Totems speak both Common and Druidic, then.

CR +3?  Just a guess.


----------



## Shade (Oct 26, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> CR +3?  Just a guess.




Let's apply the template to a sample creature and see how it plays out.    

Rock Totem Polar Bear
Large Construct
Hit Dice: 8d10+30 (74 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), swim 30 ft.
Armor Class: 19 (–1 size, +1 Dex, +9 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+18
Attack: Claw +13 (2d6+8)
Full Attack: 2 claws +13 melee (2d6+8) and bite +8 melee (3d6+4)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 10/magic, darkvision 60 ft., detect poison, immunity to magic, low-light vision, scent, spell-like abilities, telepathic link
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +7, Will +3
Abilities: Str 27, Dex 13, Con -, Int 9, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Hide –2*, Listen +5, Spot +7, Swim +16
Feats: Endurance, Improved Natural Attack (bite, claw)(B), Run, Track
Environment: Cold plains
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 4
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 9–12 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: --

This sample rock totem uses a polar bear as the base creature.

Rock totem polar bears speak Common and Druidic.

Combat

A rock totem polar bear attacks mainly by tearing at opponents with its claws.

Detect Poison (Su): A rock totem continually detects poison (as the spell), to a range of 60 feet.

Immunity to Magic (Su): A rock totem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

Passwall and transmute rock to mud destroy rock totems (no save?).

Stone to flesh reduces the natural armor bonus of the rock totem to that of the base creature (on a failed save).  This reduction to natural armor is permanent unless reversed by a flesh to stone effect.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a polar bear must hit with a claw attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.

Spell-Like Abilities: 1/week - neutralize poison (DC 12).  Caster level 8th.

Telepathic Link (Su): By concentrating as a standard action, the druid creator can see through the eyes of his or her rock totems if they are within 20 ft.

Skills: A polar bear has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

*A polar bear’s white coat bestows a +12 racial bonus on Hide checks in snowy areas.


----------



## dhaga (Oct 26, 2007)

Seems a tough CR 4, but I am sometimes a bad judge of these things.

Ow, ow, stone bear!  Ow...


----------



## Shade (Oct 26, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> Seems a tough CR 4, but I am sometimes a bad judge of these things.




Oops...I meant to make that CR "x", as the point was to determine CR!

CR 4 is for a standard polar bear.  How's this fella compare?

I'd argue that it is better than a CR 7 flesh golem, and is about even with a CR 7 web golem.  It's nowhere near as deadly as a CR 8 blood golem of Hextor.   So assuming CR 7, freyar's suggestion of +3 looks good in this case.


----------



## freyar (Oct 26, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Passwall and transmute rock to mud destroy rock totems (no save?).




These two spells don't allow saves (or spell resistance), since they're not generally used against creatures.  (TRtM allows a reflex save to get out from under an avalanche of mud, but that's it.)  We could allow a static save DC, but we'd have to explain where it comes from.

I don't get a good idea of how to eyeball the CR of the totem polar bear, unfortunately.


----------



## Shade (Oct 26, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> These two spells don't allow saves (or spell resistance), since they're not generally used against creatures.  (TRtM allows a reflex save to get out from under an avalanche of mud, but that's it.)  We could allow a static save DC, but we'd have to explain where it comes from.




We can just state "The rock totem is allowed a save against the spell's level."   There's precedent for that.


----------



## freyar (Oct 26, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> We can just state "The rock totem is allowed a save against the spell's level."   There's precedent for that.




Sounds good.  So the DC is the usual 10+spell level+caster stat bonus?


----------



## Shade (Oct 26, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Sounds good.  So the DC is the usual 10+spell level+caster stat bonus?




Yep.


----------



## dhaga (Oct 26, 2007)

So looks like freyar's CR +3 is right on!  Excellent 
Save DC using the standard formula sounds good.


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## Shade (Oct 30, 2007)

Updated Homebrews.  On to construction...



			
				Imagine Magazine said:
			
		

> These are fashioned from rock in the guise of the animal chosen by the creator.  They can only be constructed by name-level druids, unless a magical tome is employed.  These totems are slightly unusual in the fact that they are intelligent, and can think for themselves and are capable of speech.  They are totally loyal to their maker.
> 
> The type of animal sculpted can be anything from the range which the druid himself can shapechange into.  It takes 1 month to construct such a totem and requires the following spells to be cast:  detect poison, shape rock, animate rock, commune with nature, and reincarnate.  The only material cost incurred by the druid is the need of 2 jewels (worth 5,000 gp each) for the eyes.


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## freyar (Nov 1, 2007)

Craft (Stonecutting) check DC20?
Spells: _Stone Shape, Detect Poison, Commune with Nature, Reincarnate_.  Animate rock or stone doesn't seem to exist in the SRD, so I'm not sure if we should replace it.  
Materials: 2 jewels (with 5000 gp each) and a x lbs of stone (should we have a table with the amount for each size category?)


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Nov 1, 2007)

We could go with animate object, but that's not a druidic spell.  Maybe awaken?


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## Shade (Nov 1, 2007)

Looking at other stone creature construction by size:

Caryatid Column (M):  1,000 lbs.
Stone Golem, Drakestone Golem, Slaughterstone Eviscerator (L):  3,000 lbs.
Spiderstone Golem (L):  5,000 lbs.
Slaughterstone Behemoth (H):  10,000 lbs.
Juggernaut (H): 50,000 lbs.
Blackstone Gigant (G): 50,000 lbs.
Jade Spider (G):  60,000 lbs.

So maybe...

Fine: 1 lb.
Diminutive: 10 lbs.
Tiny: 100 lbs.
Small: 500 lbs.
Medium:  1,000 lbs.
Large: 3,000 lbs.
Huge:  10,000 lbs.
Gargantuan: 50,000 lbs.
Colossal: 100,000 lbs.


----------



## freyar (Nov 2, 2007)

Hmmm, awaken might work, though it does bump the caster level up to 9th.  

The list of weights looks reasonable to me.


----------



## Shade (Nov 2, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Hmmm, awaken might work, though it does bump the caster level up to 9th.




That should be fine, since it was limited to "name-level druids".

So...

Construction
A rock totem’s body is chiseled from a single block of hard stone, such as granite, with a minimum weight based on the base creature's size (see below). The stone may be of any quality, and thus costs are negligible. However, two gems worth 5,000 gp each are needed for the creature's eyes.  Assembling the body requires a DC 20 Craft (sculpting) check or a DC 20 Craft (stonemasonry) check.

CL 9th; Craft Construct, awaken, commune with nature, detect poison, reincarnate, stone shape, caster must be at least 9th level; Price 40,000 gp; Cost 25,000 gp + 1,600 XP.

Creature Size/Weight of Stone Block Needed
Fine: 1 lb.
Diminutive: 10 lbs.
Tiny: 100 lbs.
Small: 500 lbs.
Medium: 1,000 lbs.
Large: 3,000 lbs.
Huge: 10,000 lbs.
Gargantuan: 50,000 lbs.
Colossal: 100,000 lbs.

Should we vary the price by size?


----------



## dhaga (Nov 2, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Should we vary the price by size?



It makes sense that a huge one would be worth more (and be more dangerous) than a small one.

Maybe set a base price, and then set a multiplier based on size?

Say base price is for a Medium, at 25,000 gp?
Small is 1/2 that price.
Tiny is 1/2 Small's price.
Dim is 1/2 Tiny's price.
Fine...etc
And then go x2 as we go up in size?

Going this way, a Fine totem would cost 1562 gp, and a Colossal would cost 400,000 gp.

Thoughts?


----------



## freyar (Nov 3, 2007)

Reasonable, sure, why not?


----------



## Shade (Nov 6, 2007)

That sounds reasonable.


----------



## freyar (Nov 6, 2007)

So is this one basically done?


----------



## dhaga (Nov 6, 2007)

Looks about done to me, once our pricing text is included.

Also:
Ability Scores: Increase the creature's Intelligence and Wisdom scores to 9 (unless already better). As a construct, *the a* rock totem has no Constitution score.

Should just be "a" rock totem


----------



## Shade (Nov 6, 2007)

Fixed the "a the".  Thanks!

Updated in Homebrews.  Note I had to change the pricing on the gemstones for eyes, as the Small and smaller rock totems actually had negative costs to produce.

Check my math on the Construction part.  That was a challenge!


----------



## dhaga (Nov 6, 2007)

Looks good, Shade.


----------



## Shade (Nov 9, 2007)

*Totems*

This group holds a greater potential for DMs to be inventive, dealing with animations in the form of beasts. Transient examples as seen in spells are few, but include: sticks to snakes, live oak; simulacrum is an example that is permanent in effect. As with hylems, there are corresponding magical items, for example, the figurines of wondrous power or Quaal's feather token (bird). Also there exist monsters that possess related powers which can induce temporary theriomorphic animations (see treant and algoid). Permanently animated theriomorphic beings are not particularly numerous in the bestiaries (see homonculus, iron cobra, and necrophidius). 

*Black Widow Totem*
Freq: Very rare
# App: 1
AC: 6
Move: 24"/15"
HD: 7
% in lair: Nil
Treasure Type: Nil
# Att: 1
Dmg/Att: Variable
SA: Poison
SD: See below
Magic Resistance: See below
Int: Average
Alignment: Neutral
Size: S (2' diameter)
Psionics: Nil
Level/xp value: VII/1415
Save As: Fighter 5
Morale: 12

This totem is specifically constructed by noble drow, who honor Lolth as their patron deity.  Its creation is unusual because it requires cooperation between a male drow magic user and a female drow cleric.  The former needs to be of at least 12th level, while the cleric must have attained 11th level.  First a black opal and a ruby, worth at least 5,000 gp each, must be sought.  When obtained, they are then crafted into a black spider with a red cross central on its abdomen.  This is then followed by the casting of the spells from both cleric and mage.  The mage spells required are: web and reincarnation; while the cleric performs bless, prayer, poison, commune and animate object.  It takes 2 months to fabricated and costs 30,000 gp overall.

The totem can only be successfully controlled by the female cleric involved in its making.  All others, including the assisting magic user, require a specific trigger word or action detailed by the cleric, to be able to bypass the spider without difficulty.

The Black Widow can cast once per round, over a range of 5", a normal strength web spell (not requiring support) at a single opponent; cast at 12th level of ability.  To determine whether the target has been hit by the spider, the totem needs to roll "to hit".  If the black widow attacks a webbed victim, the spider will automatically hit.  The creature's bite does 1-10 damage and contains a virulent poison, resulting in a save at -4.

A +2 weapon or better is needed to score a successful hit on this creature and the only spell that affects the black widow is neutralize poison which will deactivate the totem's poison for 1 turn (if it fails its save).

Basic: The black widow totem is the creation of chaotic elves.  Other details as above.

From Imagine Magazine #19, October 1984.


----------



## freyar (Nov 10, 2007)

Ok, then:

DR 10/magic (or 15/magic ?)
bite +X melee (1d10+x+poison)
SLA: web (CL ?, DC ?)
Immunity to magic (Su): The black widow totem is immune to all spells and spell-like abilities that allow spell resistance, except as follows.  _Neutralize poison_ causes the black widow totem's poison to become inactive for one round if the totem fails its Will save.

Just my first thoughts...


----------



## Shade (Nov 12, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> DR 10/magic (or 15/magic ?)




Lets go with /adamantine.  Back in the old days, magic was the only kind of "damage reduction", but it is rare for constructs nowadays.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> bite +X melee (1d10+x+poison)




Sounds about right.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> SLA: web (CL ?, DC ?)




From the spiderstone golem...

Spit Web (Su): A spiderstone golem can spit forth a web as a ranged touch attack (maximum range 90 feet, range increment 10 feet). A Large or smaller creature hit by this attack is entangled (-2 on attack rolls, -4 penalty to Dexterity, unable to move). An entangled creature attempting to cast a spell must succeed at a Concentration check (DC 15) to do so. An entangled creature can escape with a successful Escape Artist check (DC 26) or burst the web with a Strength check (DC 32). Both are standard actions. Once the golem spits a web, it can't spit another one until 1d4 rounds later.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Immunity to magic (Su): The black widow totem is immune to all spells and spell-like abilities that allow spell resistance, except as follows.  _Neutralize poison_ causes the black widow totem's poison to become inactive for one round if the totem fails its Will save.




One turn = 10 rounds, so change that ability to "one minute" and I think we're good to go.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 12, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> One turn = 10 rounds, so change that ability to "one minute" and I think we're good to go.



er... wasn't a turn 10 minutes (not rounds)?   It certainly was in BD&D 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Nov 12, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> er... wasn't a turn 10 minutes (not rounds)?   It certainly was in BD&D




Ahh yes...you are correct!


----------



## freyar (Nov 12, 2007)

Ooops, I must have misread "turn" as "round" there when I did that.  

What do we want to do with the abilities?


----------



## Shade (Nov 12, 2007)

Downsizing the also spider-like retriever's ability scores to Small yields...

Str 11, Dex 23, Con —, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 1

A Small monstrous spider has

Str 7, Dex 17

So maybe Str 11, Dex 17?


----------



## freyar (Nov 12, 2007)

That looks good.  Int is average, do you want to go with Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 1?


----------



## Shade (Nov 12, 2007)

Sounds good.


----------



## Shade (Nov 12, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.


----------



## freyar (Nov 13, 2007)

Your homebrew link seems to be pointing back at itself, Shade.  Long day at work?


----------



## Mortis (Nov 13, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Your homebrew link seems to be pointing back at itself, Shade.  Long day at work?



or too much e-beer 

homebrew link

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Nov 13, 2007)

A little of both, but mainly I was having cut n' paste issues with ENWorld.


----------



## dhaga (Nov 14, 2007)

Neutralize poison causes the black widow totem's poison to become inactive for one minute.

+4 natural armor?



> The creature's bite does 1-10 damage and contains a virulent poison, resulting in a save at -4.




Poison (Ex): Injury, Fort save DC X, primary damage 1d6 Con, secondary damage 2d6 Con.  The save DC is Constitution-based.

+2 racial bonus to the save DC?


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> Poison (Ex): Injury, Fort save DC X, primary damage 1d6 Con, secondary damage 2d6 Con.  The save DC is Constitution-based.
> 
> +2 racial bonus to the save DC?




Sure.  Plus, since it is of average intelligence, it gets feats, and could have Ability Focus.


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## dhaga (Nov 14, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Sure.  Plus, since it is of average intelligence, it gets feats, and could have Ability Focus.



Sounds like a good Feat for it to have, the poison being its primary weapon.


----------



## freyar (Nov 14, 2007)

Speaking of feats: Ability focus (poison), Weapon focus (bite), and ?


----------



## Shade (Nov 14, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Speaking of feats: Ability focus (poison), Weapon focus (bite), and ?




Weapon Finesse?


----------



## freyar (Nov 15, 2007)

Maybe swap weapon finesse out for weapon focus and go for Ability Focus (web) also?


----------



## Shade (Nov 15, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Maybe swap weapon finesse out for weapon focus and go for Ability Focus (web) also?




That'll work.

damage reduction 5/adamantine?

Skills?  (It gets 10 ranks)


----------



## freyar (Nov 15, 2007)

That sounds good for the DR.

Either dump all the ranks into one of spot/listen or split them evenly, I guess.


----------



## Shade (Nov 15, 2007)

I could also see Climb, Hide, and Move Silently like normal spiders.


----------



## freyar (Nov 15, 2007)

Good point.  I guess I'd go with Hide and Move Silently first and see if there's any left over for Climb.


----------



## dhaga (Nov 15, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Good point.  I guess I'd go with Hide and Move Silently first and see if there's any left over for Climb.




Can always give them a racial bonus for Climb, too, so they at least have a couple of ranks.


----------



## Shade (Nov 15, 2007)

Here are racial bonuses for spiders.  We could use some of them here...

Skills: Monstrous spiders have a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Spot checks and a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks. A monstrous spider can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened. Monstrous spiders use either their Strength or Dexterity modifier for Climb checks, whichever is higher. *Hunting spiders have a +10 racial bonus on Jump checks and a +8 racial bonus on Spot checks. Web-spinning spiders have a +8 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks when using their webs.


----------



## dhaga (Nov 15, 2007)

I vote we use these:
+4 racial to Hide
+8 racial to Climb
Use Dex modifier for Climb checks


----------



## freyar (Nov 16, 2007)

I like those suggestions, dhaga, except maybe the Dex modifier for climb.  In either case, though, let's use those racial bonuses and then use the skill ranks to max out move silently.


----------



## Shade (Nov 16, 2007)

Updated Homebrews.

Construction time...



> This totem is specifically constructed by noble drow, who honor Lolth as their patron deity. Its creation is unusual because it requires cooperation between a male drow magic user and a female drow cleric. The former needs to be of at least 12th level, while the cleric must have attained 11th level. First a black opal and a ruby, worth at least 5,000 gp each, must be sought. When obtained, they are then crafted into a black spider with a red cross central on its abdomen. This is then followed by the casting of the spells from both cleric and mage. The mage spells required are: web and reincarnation; while the cleric performs bless, prayer, poison, commune and animate object. It takes 2 months to fabricated and costs 30,000 gp overall.


----------



## freyar (Nov 16, 2007)

First things first: do we want to keep the requirement of both the mage and cleric?  If so, we should probably change the spells around, since reincarnate isn't a sorcerer/wizard spell anymore.


----------



## Shade (Nov 16, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> First things first: do we want to keep the requirement of both the mage and cleric?  If so, we should probably change the spells around, since reincarnate isn't a sorcerer/wizard spell anymore.




I think we should keep both, but agree that spells need to be modified.


----------



## freyar (Nov 16, 2007)

Bless and prayer are pretty similar, so let's drop bless, so the cleric isn't doing all the work.   I'm baffled as to what the S/W should do besides web, though.  Cat's grace b/c the Dex is high or Fox's cunning b/c it's an intelligent construct?  Why isn't animate object an S/W spell?  Wouldn't mages want animated statues around?


----------



## Mortis (Nov 17, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Wouldn't mages want animated statues around?



There is the non-core spell Awaken Construct (Savage Species) that's Sor/Wiz 9 - unfortunately its high level and clerics get the spell as well 

What about Spider Climb?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## freyar (Nov 17, 2007)

Spider climb is a good choice.

You know, I think I may just house-rule that animate object is Sor/Wiz.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 17, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> You know, I think I may just house-rule that animate object is Sor/Wiz.



I think Disney beat you to it   

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 19, 2007)

Am I on the right track?

A black widow totem's body is chiseled from a single block of hard stone, weighing at least X pounds. The construction also requires an opal and a ruby, each worth at least 5,000 gp.  The construction ritual may only be performed by a male drow wizard and a female drow cleric of Lolth.  Assembling the body requires a DC X Craft (sculpting) check or a DC X Craft (stonemasonry) check.

CL 12th; Craft Construct, animate objects, cat's grace, prayer, spider climb, cleric must be at least 11th level and wizard must be at least 12th level; Price 30,000 gp; Cost 25,000 gp + 1,200 XP.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 19, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Am I on the right track?



I'd say so.

A 2 cubic feet block of granite weighs about 4000 lbs (link), does this seem about right for the totem?

<edit>must show working out 

According to the linked site a cubic metre weighs 2,691 kg (or 5,920 lbs), 2cubic is approx 2/3s of a cubic metre, so 2/3 x 5920 = 4000 ish.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 19, 2007)

That works for me.    

DC 15 for the Craft checks?

Challenge Rating: ?

Other 7 HD golems seems to be in the CR 5-6 range.

Advancement: ?


----------



## Shade (Nov 20, 2007)

Updated Homebrews with the assumed values above.  

Does it look good?


----------



## Mortis (Nov 20, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Does it look good?



Looks good, and done 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 20, 2007)

*Rag Golem*
Freq: Very rare
# App:  1
AC:  10
Move: 3"
HD: 1 hp
% in Lair:  Nil
Treasure type: Nil
# Att: Nil
Dmg/Att:  Nil
Special Attacks:  Cantrips
Special Defenses:  See below
MR: See below
Intelligence:  See below
Alignment: Neutral
Size:  S (6")
Psionics:  Nil
Level/XP:  I & up/62
Save As:  Fighter 1
Morale: 12

Unlike others of its kind the rag golem does not rely upon sheer force as a means to an end.  A mere 6 inches tall, it is constructed of whatever household rags the magic user finds handy at the time.  Consequently, the cost of producing a rag golem can be as little as 1,000 gp.  Once a vaguely humanoid shape has been made the following spells must be cast:  tongues, anti-magic shell, geas, teleport without error, polymorph any object, and wish.

The newly-produced golem is physically fully developed, but mentally possesses only 1 point of Intelligence.  It gains a further point for each subsequent week of animation until the mage's own Intelligence score is reached.  Until then, the mage must be engaged with its uprigining, to the exclusion of other activities; any break in the process will result in deactivation of the little fellow.

On gaining its final intelligence point the ragamuffin can perform the following at will:  limited telepathy with the magic user (3" range), teleport (no error), speak and comprehend any spoken language.  Related to the last ability is the golem's full literacy in normal and magical script. 

The rag golem has a perfect memory and knows everything its master has seen fit to teach it, including spells (from cantrips to 9th level spells).  Thus a rag golem often serves as a walking spell book.  Provided it is within its telepathic range, the mage can re-learn any spell in its memory (normal time required), subject ot the maximum permitted by intelligence, level, and magic.  However, although the golem holds all its maker's spells, itself is powerless to use any except for the cantrips.  The golem can cast any cantrip memorized at will.

Like its target brethren, the rag golem is immune to most magical attacks, apart from spells cast by its creator and the various Bigby's hand spells.  On top of this, these little monsters are immune to physical attack, be it due to weapon, fire, acid, or whatever. Fortunately for the magic user, they are completely loyal.

If required the golem will use its own initiative to achieve its master's ends.  Over time it will develop its own personality, invariably humorous and mischievous, often mimicking the idiosyncrasies and foibles of its creator.  Even so, the golem will never behave in a deleterious manner towards its maker.  No matter how its personality develops the golem's alignment remains neutral.

If its master dies, a rag golem will set off alone into the big world.  As a source of spells such a wandering rag golem is a prize find.  However, it is now 'freelance', it must be enticed into cooperation.  A 'rogue' rag golem will work with a magic user they find worthy, but not for him!

Basic:  As above.  The rag golem can only be damaged by spells cast by its creator.  It has no magical ability of its own.

From Imagine Magazine #19, October 1984.


----------



## Shade (Nov 28, 2007)

Diminutive construct?

This should be fun.


----------



## freyar (Nov 28, 2007)

Should  we try downsizing a ragamoffyn (sp?) for physical stats?  I suggest an int at the minimum level needed to cast the appropriate spells.


----------



## Shade (Nov 28, 2007)

Fair enough.   Taking the smallest raggamoffyn, the tatterdemanimal, and downsizing it to Diminutive gives us:

Str 4, Dex 25, Con -, Int 10, Wis 19, Cha 15

Since "The golem can cast any cantrip memorized at will", I think we should make them spell-like abilities, and thus it will need a decent Charisma.


----------



## freyar (Nov 30, 2007)

Ok, then, Str 4, Dex 25, Con -.  I guess if we keep _wish_ as part of the construction, we should make Int 19.  Swap Wis and Cha from the raggamoffyn?  Maybe even drop wis a bit?

I can see the argument for making cantrips SLAs (all of them?), but it might be more flavorful to let it cast cantrips as a Xth level sorceror.  Ah, I'm probably just being silly.  Too bad these guys can't use the other spells, or they'd be nearly unstoppable!

On immunities and such: DR 10/-, Immunity to all the energies, Immunity to magic as usual for constructs (except for spells from the creator and Bigby's hand spells).  Does that sound about right?


----------



## Shade (Dec 3, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.

Note that "Bigby" isn't in the SRD, so we can't say "the Bigby's hand spells".

Should we expand it to vulnerability to all spells with the Force descriptor?  It's immune to near everything else, so I think it would work.

Otherwise, how shall we mention the "hand" spells?


----------



## freyar (Dec 3, 2007)

Ugh, I guess they don't chain the spells together in the SRD.  Let's just go with the force descriptor.  I think that's "magi-scientific" enough.


----------



## Shade (Dec 3, 2007)

Imagine Magazine said:
			
		

> On gaining its final intelligence point the ragamuffin can perform the following at will:  limited telepathy with the magic user (3" range), teleport (no error), speak and comprehend any spoken language.  Related to the last ability is the golem's full literacy in normal and magical script.




Telepathic Link (Su):  A rag golem can communicate telepathically with its master to a range of 30 feet.



			
				Imagine Magazine said:
			
		

> The rag golem has a perfect memory and knows everything its master has seen fit to teach it, including spells (from cantrips to 9th level spells).  Thus a rag golem often serves as a walking spell book.  Provided it is within its telepathic range, the mage can re-learn any spell in its memory (normal time required), subject ot the maximum permitted by intelligence, level, and magic.  However, although the golem holds all its maker's spells, itself is powerless to use any except for the cantrips.  The golem can cast any cantrip memorized at will.




How's this?

Walking Spellbook (Su):  A spellcaster can scribe any spell he knows into his rag golem's memory, as if scribing to his spellbook.  As long as the rag golem is within 30 feet, the spellcaster can prepare spells as if the rag golem were his spellbook.  Should the rag golem's master dies, another spellcaster may attempt to obtain the rag golem's stored spells.  This follows all the normal rules for mastering another spellcaster's spellbook.

Spell-Like Abilities:  A rag golem may use any cantrips its master has stored within it as spell-like abilities.  These abilities may be used at will.


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## freyar (Dec 4, 2007)

Looks good.  I'd add greater teleport as an SLA (CL13?).  Should the spoken language just be the languages that the creator knows?  Also, regarding the literacy in magical script, maybe just magical writing by its creator?


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Looks good.  I'd add greater teleport as an SLA (CL13?).  Should the spoken language just be the languages that the creator knows?  Also, regarding the literacy in magical script, maybe just magical writing by its creator?




Good point.  I think tongues as an SLA would suffice, since it could "speak and comprehend any spoken language".  As for the literacy in magical script, that screams "read magic" to me.


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## freyar (Dec 4, 2007)

Sounds good, let's add tongues and read magic as at will (?) SLAs.  We should then add read magic as part of construction (tongues is actually already in the old text).


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2007)

That'll work.



> If required the golem will use its own initiative to achieve its master's ends. Over time it will develop its own personality, invariably humorous and mischievous, often mimicking the idiosyncrasies and foibles of its creator. Even so, the golem will never behave in a deleterious manner towards its maker. No matter how its personality develops the golem's alignment remains neutral.




Skills: 24
How about:  Bluff 4, Concentration 4, Knowledge (arcana) 4, Sense Motive 4, Sleight of Hand 4, Spellcraft 4?

Feats: 1
Combat Casting?  Magical Aptitude?


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2007)

Skills look right.  Let's go with Magical Aptitude.  I just like it better.


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2007)

I took one rank off Sleight of Hand and added it to Use Magical Device, since UMD cannot be used untrained, and Magical Aptitude grants a +2 bonus to UMD we shouldn't waste.    

CR 1?

Construction?

Prereq spells:  tongues, antimagic field, geas, greater teleport, polymorph any object, and wish?


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2007)

Let's see: that all sounds about right.

Construction: requires 3cp worth of rags and a DC15 Craft (sewing) check?


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2007)

A rag golem’s body is constructed from 1 pound of rags, soaked with rare admixtures costing at least 1,000 gp. Assembling the body requires a DC 15 Craft (sewing) check or a DC 15 Profession (seamstress) check.

CL 17th; Craft Construct, antimagic field, geas, greater teleport, polymorph any object, tongues, wish, caster must be at least 17th level; Price x gp; Cost x gp + x XP.

I think CL 17th is a bit high for what we get here.

How about we reduce wish to limited wish, and polymorph any object to fabricate, allowing us to reduce the CL to 13th.

Although "the cost of producing a rag golem can be as little as 1,000 gp", I'd say we use that guideline solely for the raw materials ("rare admixtures", etc.) and set the actual cost higher to prevent casters from mass-producing these fellows.   

We could always say that using wish in place of limited wish reduces the cost, too.

Thoughts?


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2007)

I like the reduced CL and modified spells.

I'd keep them pretty cheap, though, since they're not very tough.  Let's not raise the price above 2000-3000.


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## Shade (Dec 11, 2007)

How's this?

A rag golem’s body is constructed from 1 pound of rags, soaked with rare admixtures costing at least 1,000 gp. Assembling the body requires a DC 15 Craft (sewing) check or a DC 15 Profession (seamstress) check.

CL 13th; Craft Construct, antimagic field, fabricate, geas, greater teleport, limited wish, tongues, caster must be at least 13th level; Price 2,000 gp; Cost 1,500 gp + 80 XP.


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## Mortis (Dec 11, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> How's this?
> <snip>




That does the job 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 11, 2007)

Updated.

Finished?


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## freyar (Dec 11, 2007)

Looks good!


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## Shade (Dec 11, 2007)

Echohawk just sent me another article, so we're off to the races...

*Demons*

Filipino demons seem to be creatures of a highly magical nature rather than inhabitants of another plane.  Many of them live in large trees, and they are rarely pernicious or evil, content for the most part to frighten away those who intrude on their territories or fail to treat them with due respect, and only killing when greatly enraged.  They are great pranksters.

All Filipino demons can become invisible at will, and each has a personal charm or jewel which is the source of its strength.  If this can be won from the demon by wit or force, it will give the bearer the same strength (typically in the region of 18/01-23 -- the DM may select according to the power of the demon or roll on d6).  Bright sunlight banishes them.

While the DM might rule that Filipino demons should be turnable on the "Special" line of the clerics vs. undead matrix, they do not seem to be deterred by holy symbols, and some actually delight in collecting numbers of them from frightened villagers.

*Agta (Demon)*
Freq:  Very rare
# App: 1
AC: 3
Move: 12"
HD: 8
% in Lair: 90%
Treasure type: R
# Att: 2
Dmg/Att:  Variable
SA: size change, fear
SD: size change
MR: standard
Int: average-very
Alignment:  Chaotic neutral
Size:  variable
Psionics:  nil
Level/XP Value:  Agta: VII/1450 + 10/hp; Kapre: VII/1900 + 10/hp

The Agta, Bawo, or Ungo appears as a muscular, black-skinned humanoid, and can vary its size instantly between 1 ft. and about 30 ft.  It is generally about 10-12 ft. in height, which may be its natural size.

As it increases in size, it becomes stronger, as follows:  when it shrinks to 1 ft., it has 2 hp, attacks as a 1 HD monster, and causes 1d4 damage on a successful hit. It can enlarge itself to a maximum height equal to half its maximum hit points (as rolled on 8d8) in feet, i.e. an Agta with 54 hp can reach a maximum height of 27 ft.  For every 4 ft. of its height it attacks as a monster of 1 HD and cause 1d4 damage.  Thus, at 1-4 ft. it attacs as a 1 HD monster and causes 1d4 damage, at 5-8 ft. it attacks as a 2 HD monster for 2d4 damage, and so on, up to a maximum of 8 HD and 8d4 damage.

Agta live in large trees, particularly favoring banyans and mangroves, and resent any interference with their trees.  They attack with two fists, and on a successful double attack can rend as a Carnivorous Ape (Monster Manual), causing additional damage as for two successful fist attacks.

Another type of Agta is the Kapre or Pugot, which has a shapechange ability in addition to the Agta's size change.  Its favorite forms are those of a dark cat, dog, or boar, which has fiery eyes and breathes blue-green fire, a pure white fowl, or a headless and often mutilated corpse.  In this last form it will caper along, singing merrily to itself and eating by pushing food into its bubbling neck-stump.  Characters of less than 4th level who see it in this form must save vs. spell or flee.

Both forms of this demon can also emit a great roar once per turn, which causes fear as the spell unless the appropriate saving throw is made.

One favourite trick of the Pugot is to rush between the legs of an unwary traveller in its boar form, increase its size and carry its victim off, never to be seen again.

From Imagine Magazine #25 (1985)


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## Shade (Dec 11, 2007)

First things first:   fey?


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## Shroomy (Dec 11, 2007)

Definitely fey IMO.


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## RavinRay (Dec 12, 2007)

Hey, it's one of ours!

Edit: I'd call it a Large fey, with the kapre having the shapechanger subtype as well. The kapre is often depicted smoking a wad of rolled tobacco. You can read more about the kapre at Wikipedia, which is quite accurate.


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## Shade (Dec 12, 2007)

These guys look like a lot of fun.    

Large fey it is.

We can modify the elven cat's change size power...

Change Size (Sp): Twice per day, an elven cat can magically change its size. This works just like a enlarge person or reduce person spell (the elven cat chooses when using the ability), except that the ability can work on the elven cat.


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## Shade (Dec 12, 2007)

Let's figure out ability scores.



> Int:  average-very




That puts Int in the range of 8-12.

Str is within the range of 18/01-23 (which converts to 19-26 in 3e).   They are described as "muscular".  One of the other demons in the article is described as stronger.

They are 10-12 feet tall.

Hill Giant (10-1/2 feet): Str 25, Dex 8, Con 19, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7
Stone giant (12 feet): Str 27, Dex 15, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 11

So....Str 24, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 11?


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## Mortis (Dec 13, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> So....Str 24, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 11?



That's a reasonable set of abilities.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shroomy (Dec 13, 2007)

The ability stats sound good.


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## Shade (Dec 14, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.


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## Shade (Dec 14, 2007)

> The Agta, Bawo, or Ungo appears as a muscular, black-skinned humanoid, and can vary its size instantly between 1 ft. and about 30 ft. It is generally about 10-12 ft. in height, which may be its natural size.
> 
> As it increases in size, it becomes stronger, as follows: when it shrinks to 1 ft., it has 2 hp, attacks as a 1 HD monster, and causes 1d4 damage on a successful hit. It can enlarge itself to a maximum height equal to half its maximum hit points (as rolled on 8d8) in feet, i.e. an Agta with 54 hp can reach a maximum height of 27 ft. For every 4 ft. of its height it attacks as a monster of 1 HD and cause 1d4 damage. Thus, at 1-4 ft. it attacs as a 1 HD monster and causes 1d4 damage, at 5-8 ft. it attacks as a 2 HD monster for 2d4 damage, and so on, up to a maximum of 8 HD and 8d4 damage.




Assuming a cutoff at 1 ft. and 32 ft. on the high end (assuming max 8d8 hp/2), the agta could either be Diminutive or Tiny on the low end, and Huge or Gargantuan on the high end, per the monster size chart in the MM.  Preferences?

Here's a first draft of the ability...

Change Size (Su):  An agta can change size from Diminutive/Tiny to Huge/Gargantuan.  The agta gains all size adjustments to space/reach, ability scores, skills, damage, and combat options such as grapple, as normal for a monster that changes size.  An agta can remain in a given size until it chooses to assume a new one. A change in size cannot be dispelled, but an agta reverts to its natural size when killed. A true seeing spell or ability reveals its natural size.


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## freyar (Dec 17, 2007)

Let's go Tiny to Huge, or else we might have to provide too many alternate stats.


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## Shade (Dec 17, 2007)

> Both forms of this demon can also emit a great roar once per turn, which causes fear as the spell unless the appropriate saving throw is made.




Great Roar (Su):  Once per X rounds/minutes, an agta can emit a frightful roar.  All creatures that can hear the agta must succeed on a DC X Will save or be panicked for X rounds.  Even on a successful save, the victim is still shaken for 1 round.  This is a sonic, mind-affecting, fear effect.  The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2007)

Looks good.  Filling in the X's, the DC is 14 if we stick with the original 8HD.  Cause fear is 1d4 rounds as a 1st level spell, so we should bump this up, I guess.  1d8 rounds?  Or 1d12? Need to use d12s more.   I'd say once per minute.


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2007)

The fear spell (as opposed to the lower-level cause fear) is 1 round/level.   Since this is based off the fear spell, perhaps 1 round/HD (8 rounds)?  Or if you want to randomize it, we can go with 1d8 rounds.


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2007)

Excellent, I need to learn my spells better.  Let's go with 8 rounds and allow it to roar every minute.  That way, there is a little recovery time.


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Excellent, I need to learn my spells better.  Let's go with 8 rounds and allow it to roar every minute.  That way, there is a little recovery time.




Sounds good, and don't feel bad...no one uses fear spells!


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2007)

Well, the thing is, the spell descriptions are the one part of the PHB I just can't get myself to read.  That, and the fact that I haven't had any PCs or NPCs of sufficient level to cast fear in my games yet!


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Well, the thing is, the spell descriptions are the one part of the PHB I just can't get myself to read.  That, and the fact that I haven't had any PCs or NPCs of sufficient level to cast fear in my games yet!




The casters in the campaign I DM and the one I play in use almost no enchantment or illusion spells.  They just rarely work, or are less "flashy" that spells of other schools.    

Slam damage?

Damage reduction x/cold iron?



> All Filipino demons can become invisible at will, and each has a personal charm or jewel which is the source of its strength. If this can be won from the demon by wit or force, it will give the bearer the same strength (typically in the region of 18/01-23 -- the DM may select according to the power of the demon or roll on d6). Bright sunlight banishes them.




Invisibility as an at-will SLA?

Talisman:  An agta bears a talisman that is the source of its power.  If taken or otherwise obtained from the agta, the bearer gains (a +x enhancement bonus to Strength/or a Strength score equal to that of the agta?)   Does the agta then lose equivalent Strength if it still lives?  Is the talisman permanent?

What should we do about the "sunlight banishes them" bit?



> While the DM might rule that Filipino demons should be turnable on the "Special" line of the clerics vs. undead matrix, they do not seem to be deterred by holy symbols, and some actually delight in collecting numbers of them from frightened villagers.




Since demons and devils are no longer turned by default, I'd suggest we drop this.

Skills: 66
Feats: 3



> Filipino demons seem to be creatures of a highly magical nature rather than inhabitants of another plane. Many of them live in large trees, and they are rarely pernicious or evil, content for the most part to frighten away those who intrude on their territories or fail to treat them with due respect, and only killing when greatly enraged. They are great pranksters.




From the Wikipedia entry RavinRay posted...



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Kapres are not necessarily considered to be evil, unlike the manananggal. Kapres may make contact with people to offer friendship, or if it is attracted to a woman. If a kapre befriends any human, especially because of love, the kapre will consistently follow its "love interest" throughout life.
> 
> Kapres are also said to play pranks on people, frequently making travelers become disoriented and lose their way in the mountains or in the woods. It is also believe to have the ability to confuse people even at their own familiar surroundings; for instance, someone who forgets that they are in their own garden or home are said to be have been tricked by a kapre. Reports of experiencing kapre enchantment include that of witnessing rustling tree branches even if the wind is not strong. Another example would be hearing loud laughter or voice coming from an unseen being; witnessing lots of smoke from the top of a tree; seeing big fiery eyes during night time from a tree; as well as actually seeing a kapre walking by in forested areas. It is also believed that abundant fireflies in woody areas are the embers from the kapre's lit tobacco.




This would seem to imply ranks in Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive, and maybe Sleight of Hand and Survival.

Environment: Any forests?


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## freyar (Dec 19, 2007)

Slam damage: start with 1d4 at tiny and increase as appropriate by the size tables?

DR 10/cold iron, I'd think.

Yes on invisibility at will.

Not sure on the STR bonus yet.  Maybe this should be equivalent to gauntlets of ogre power or something.

Some sort of sunlight vulnerability: maybe they are dazzled in sunlight and cannot use any special abilities?  Should the daylight spell count?

Those skills sound good, as does the environment.


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## Shroomy (Dec 19, 2007)

I would also think that ranks in Hide and Move Silently would be in order.  

Personally I'm also leery of the talisman; it's great in folklore but potentially problematic in an RPG.  Plus, I really can't think of anything equivalent (maybe a redcap's tooth, but that is a much more limited item) to base it off of.  However, if the agta's treasure values equals out to some equivalent strength boosting magic item, I would say go for it, but that would its only treasure.


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## Shroomy (Dec 19, 2007)

Another thing on skills, since they are arboreal, shouldn't they have a climb speed and thus the +8 bonus to a Climb skill?

Also, I agree with freyar about the daylight vulnerability being a good substitute.


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## Shade (Dec 19, 2007)

Shroomy said:
			
		

> Another thing on skills, since they are arboreal, shouldn't they have a climb speed and thus the +8 bonus to a Climb skill?




Good idea.  20 feet sound good?



> Also, I agree with freyar about the daylight vulnerability being a good substitute.




Me too.


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## RavinRay (Dec 20, 2007)

I agree with freyar on being dazzled in sunlight/_daylight_. As for the talisman, a rough analogy is with the water bowl of the kappa _(Oriental Adventures)_. From what I remember, an opponent that wins a grapple check can cause the water on the bowl on top of the kappa's head to spill, causing it physical ability damage (either Dex or Str). There's also a fey/outsider (the sylph?) that has a possession very valuable to it (its egg or blanket or whatever) that gives the creature that steals it some measure of control over the sylph.


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## freyar (Dec 20, 2007)

Coveys of hags have magic items, as well (an eye?).  So there is precedent.


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## Shade (Dec 20, 2007)

Looking at the lowest available belt of giant strength (+4), it is valued at 16,000 gp.  That is about the equivalent of an EL 14 encounter.   The agta, at 8 HD, won't be nearly that highly CRed.   So the permament +4 strength item is a bit much.

Perhaps the talisman could grant a temporary bull's strength effect on the recipient?


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## freyar (Dec 20, 2007)

Well, we could cut a lot of the price by going to +2 STR bonus, but I agree that bull's strength is a better way to go.  Maybe it gives +4 STR for 3 min once per day, except it is a permanent +4 STR to the agta?


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## Shade (Dec 20, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Well, we could cut a lot of the price by going to +2 STR bonus, but I agree that bull's strength is a better way to go.  Maybe it gives +4 STR for 3 min once per day, except it is a permanent +4 STR to the agta?




How about the agta suffers 1d4 points of Strength damage, which is then transferred to the recipient as an enhancement bonus for 24 hours?


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## freyar (Dec 20, 2007)

Also works.  Let's go that route.


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## Shade (Dec 20, 2007)

How's this?

Talisman (Su): An agta bears a talisman that is the source of its strength. If taken or otherwise obtained from the agta, the agta suffers 1d4 points of Strength damage, which is then transferred to the recipient as an enhancement bonus to Strength for 24 hours.  If taken after its death, the bearer gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength for 24 hours.

Updated Homebrews.

Feats (3):  Persuasive, Power Attack, Stealthy?

Advancement: 9-24 HD (Large)?


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## freyar (Dec 20, 2007)

Sounds good, and we look nearly done.  Do we need to list out the changes to the stat block for the different sizes?

I'd put natural armor at +10 or +12, I guess.  I think I see these as being near CR 6 or so.


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## Shade (Dec 20, 2007)

Treasure type R:

2-8 1,000s of gold pieces: 40%
10-60 100s of platinum pieces: 50%
4-32 gems: 55%
1-12 jewelry: 45%

Double coins, double goods (gems and jewelry), no items (except talisman)?

For the damage, Tiny 1d4, Small 1d6, Medium 1d8, Large 2d6, Huge 2d8?


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## freyar (Dec 20, 2007)

That all sounds good.


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## Shade (Dec 21, 2007)

So with the size changes...

Huge Agta
Hit Dice: 8d6+48 (76 hp)
Initiative: +0
Armor Class: 21 (-2 size, +13 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 21
Grapple: +23
Attack: Slam +13 melee (2d8+11)
Full Attack: 2 slams +13 melee (2d8+11)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: rend 4d8+16
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +6
Abilities: Str 32, Dex 11, Con 23
Skills: Climb +19, Hide +5, Move Silently +9, Sleight of Hand +11

Medium Agta
Hit Dice: 8d6+16 (44 hp)
Initiative: +2
Armor Class: 20 (+2 Dex, +8 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 18
Grapple: +7
Attack: Slam +7 melee (1d8+3)
Full Attack: 2 slams +7 melee (1d8+3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: rend 2d8+4
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +8
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 15, Con 15
Skills: Climb +11, Hide +15, Move Silently +11, Sleight of Hand +13

Small Agta
Hit Dice: 8d6+8 (36 hp)
Initiative: +3
Armor Class: 21 (+3 Dex, +8 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 18
Grapple: +1
Attack: Slam +6 melee (1d6+3)
Full Attack: 2 slams +6 melee (1d6+3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: rend 2d6+1
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +9
Abilities: Str 12, Dex 17, Con 13
Skills: Climb +9, Hide +20, Move Silently +12, Sleight of Hand +14

Tiny Agta
Hit Dice: 8d6+8 (36 hp)
Initiative: +4
Armor Class: 22 (+4 Dex, +8 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 18
Grapple: -5
Attack: Slam +5 melee (1d4-1)
Full Attack: 2 slams +5 melee (1d4-1)
Space/Reach: 2-1/2 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: rend 2d4-1
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +10
Abilities: Str 8, Dex 19, Con 13
Skills: Climb +9, Hide +20, Move Silently +12, Sleight of Hand +14

Check my math closely on those.


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## freyar (Dec 21, 2007)

Notes on the size changes:

Huge: I think damage increases 2d6-> 3d6 on the slams (from hypertext srd).  Likewise, rend goes from 4d6 to 6d6.  I think climb should be +18.  All else looks good.

Medium: Rend should be 3d6.  Shouldn't climb be +10?  

Small: Slam damage should be 1d6+1, not +3, but I think the rest looks ok.

Tiny: Rend should be 1d8.  Skills need to be Climb +7, Hide +25, Move Silently +13, Sleight of Hand +15

I think that's it.


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## Shade (Dec 31, 2007)

Rend is simply double the creature's natural attack + 1.5 times its Str modifier.

I'll fix the rest.  Thanks!


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## freyar (Dec 31, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Rend is simply double the creature's natural attack + 1.5 times its Str modifier.




Learn something new every day...


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## Shade (Dec 31, 2007)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: 9-10?   It is easily as powerful as a frost giant at CR 9, but I'm not sure it is good enough for CR 10.   Thoughts?


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## freyar (Dec 31, 2007)

I guess I'd say a tough CR 9, but maybe we should see what the others say.


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## Shroomy (Jan 1, 2008)

I'm worried about the agta's low hit point total for a CR 9 creature, something I always worry about with melee-orientated fey.  Does anyone have any points of comparison.


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## RavinRay (Jan 1, 2008)

I'll take a look at the _Oriental Adventures_ fey to compare. In the meantime… did you know that in our folklore, to placate capricious Filipino fey who try to disorient you in a forest, one way is to turn your shirt inside-out? It prevents them from teleporting you to a random location in the forest, or allows you to resist their charms.


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## Shroomy (Jan 1, 2008)

I wish more folkloric D&D monsters had weaknesses or quirks like that.


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## RavinRay (Jan 1, 2008)

Ok, I looked at the _OA_ fey, and all three of them have higher HD than their CR: bajang 6d6 CR 5, bisan 10d6 CR 5, and the three nats 2d6 CR 1, 4d6 CR 3, 8d6 CR 4.


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## Shroomy (Jan 2, 2008)

The agta's damage output is sick if it hits you with its two slams and rends (52 points of damage on average in its normal Large size and without power attack), but it has relatively low hit points, BAB, saving throws, AC, and initiative, as well as a fairly significant vulnerability.  In combat against four 9th-level characters, it will probably go down in one round, and its only hope would be to use its _invisibility_ to attack with surprise.  I'd say that CR 9 is too high, but that damage output....


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## Shade (Jan 2, 2008)

Hmmm...the hit points are a definite detriment, even with the DR cold iron taken into consideration.

A troll is CR 5 with 6 HD.  Its damage output is a max of 54.  It has 63 hp.

The agta clearly exceeds this, so let's look at another creature.

At CR 7, a hill giant has 12 HD, 102 hp, and a max damage output of 52.   It is has a much better chance of hitting and survival than the agta, even if its damage output is a bit less.   Does the agta's versatility, DR, and at will invisibility keep it on par?

So I suppose CR 6-7 is more appropriate that my original estimate of CR 9.


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## Shroomy (Jan 2, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Hmmm...the hit points are a definite detriment, even with the DR cold iron taken into consideration.
> 
> A troll is CR 5 with 6 HD.  Its damage output is a max of 54.  It has 63 hp.
> 
> ...




Shade, did you mean average damage or max damage in the above quote, because the agta delivers 52 points of damage _on average_ with a full attack and rend.  I would think that the agta would be a CR 6-7 creature if its damage output was reduced.


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## Shade (Jan 2, 2008)

Shroomy said:
			
		

> Shade, did you mean average damage or max damage in the above quote, because the agta delivers 52 points of damage _on average_ with a full attack and rend.  I would think that the agta would be a CR 6-7 creature if its damage output was reduced.




I meant max damage.  I realize now that you meant average.  The max damage output for an agta in Huge form is significantly higher (98 if my math is correct).

We could reduce the agta's slam damage to the usual slam damage for monsters of its sizes (Tiny = 1, Small = 1d3, Medium = 1d4, Large = 1d6, Huge = 1d8) or even one better than normal (Tiny = 1d3, Small = 1d4, Medium = 1d6, Large = 1d8, Huge = 2d6).


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## Shroomy (Jan 2, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> I meant max damage.  I realize now that you meant average.  The max damage output for an agta in Huge form is significantly higher (98 if my math is correct).
> 
> We could reduce the agta's slam damage to the usual slam damage for monsters of its sizes (Tiny = 1, Small = 1d3, Medium = 1d4, Large = 1d6, Huge = 1d8) or even one better than normal (Tiny = 1d3, Small = 1d4, Medium = 1d6, Large = 1d8, Huge = 2d6).




Using the normal slam damage progression yields an average damage of 34 points with a full attack and rend; a troll would inflict an average damage of 35 points with 2 claws and a rend (not even counting the bite attack).  I think the average progression is the way to go, making the agta a CR 6 in my estimation.


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## Shade (Jan 2, 2008)

Shroomy said:
			
		

> Using the normal slam damage progression yields an average damage of 34 points with a full attack and rend; a troll would inflict an average damage of 35 points with 2 claws and a rend (not even counting the bite attack).  I think the average progression is the way to go, making the agta a CR 6 in my estimation.




That might be the best way to go.  Anyone disagree?


----------



## freyar (Jan 2, 2008)

Sounds fine!


----------



## Shade (Jan 3, 2008)

Updated.  I made one slight change...1d2 for Tiny.  2-1 for rend just looked too odd.    

Let's work on the variants...



			
				Imagine Magazine #25 said:
			
		

> Another type of Agta is the Kapre or Pugot, which has a shapechange ability in addition to the Agta's size change.  Its favorite forms are those of a dark cat, dog, or boar, which has fiery eyes and breathes blue-green fire, a pure white fowl, or a headless and often mutilated corpse.  In this last form it will caper along, singing merrily to itself and eating by pushing food into its bubbling neck-stump.  Characters of less than 4th level who see it in this form must save vs. spell or flee.
> 
> Both forms of this demon can also emit a great roar once per turn, which causes fear as the spell unless the appropriate saving throw is made.
> 
> One favourite trick of the Pugot is to rush between the legs of an unwary traveller in its boar form, increase its size and carry its victim off, never to be seen again.






			
				RavinRay said:
			
		

> Edit: I'd call it a Large fey, with the kapre having the shapechanger subtype as well. The kapre is often depicted smoking a wad of rolled tobacco. You can read more about the kapre at Wikipedia, which is quite accurate.


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## freyar (Jan 3, 2008)

Just stat out (or point people to the appropriate animal stats) these favored forms?  I think I'd make the fire breath just a point of flavor.  The mutilated corpse can have the same stats as the base agta but also a fear aura.


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## Shade (Jan 3, 2008)

The question is do we use something like this...

Alternate Form (Su):  A phasm can assume any form of Large size or smaller as a standard action. A phasm can remain in its alternate form until it chooses to assume a new one or return to its natural form.

Or something more like this...

Alternate Form (Su):  A bralani can shift between its humanoid and whirlwind forms as a standard action. In humanoid form, it cannot fly or use its whirlwind blast, but it can use its spell-like abilities and its weapons. In whirlwind form, it can fly, make slam attacks and whirlwind blast attacks, and use spell-like abilities. 

A bralani remains in one form until it chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, nor does the bralani revert to any particular form when killed. A true seeing spell, however, reveals both forms simultaneously. 

In other words...limited or (mostly) limitless shapechanging ability?


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## freyar (Jan 4, 2008)

Well, the original write-up looks mostly limitless, though giving special effects to some of the forms is easier with the bralani-like version.  I think I'm tempted to go with the limited version, but it's not as satisfying.


----------



## Shade (Jan 7, 2008)

Does this look OK?

Alternate Form (Su): A kapre can take the form of a cat, dog, boar, raven, or a headless, mutiliated corpse.  A kapre can shift between its fey and other forms as a standard action. In animal forms, it cannot use its rend ability, but it can use its other special abilities. In corpse form, it retains all abilities and gains frightful presence. 

A kapre remains in one form until it chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, nor does the kapre revert to any particular form when killed. A true seeing spell, however, reveals both forms simultaneously. 

Note for "fowl", the closest thing I could find in the SRD was a raven.


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## freyar (Jan 7, 2008)

Looks pretty good.  Why don't we say it takes the form of a "fowl" but mention that the fowl should use the physical stats, etc, of a raven.  In addition, we should probably mention that the animal forms have fiery eyes and exhale a harmless blue-green fire.  Maybe:

Alternate Form (Su): A kapre can take the form of a cat, dog, boar, snow-white fowl, or a headless, mutiliated corpse. A kapre can shift between its fey and other forms as a standard action. In animal forms, it cannot use its rend ability, but it can use its other special abilities.  The animal's eyes appear fiery red, and the animal exhales a harmless blue-green fire and smoke. In corpse form, it retains all abilities and gains frightful presence.

A kapre remains in one form until it chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, nor does the kapre revert to any particular form when killed. A true seeing spell, however, reveals both forms simultaneously.


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## Shade (Jan 7, 2008)

Updated Homebrews with a section on the kapre.

How's it looking?


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## freyar (Jan 7, 2008)

I guess we just need to fill in the Xs!


----------



## Shade (Jan 9, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> I guess we just need to fill in the Xs!




Suggestions?


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## Shade (Jan 10, 2008)

The only X's I'm spotting are...

An agta is 10-12 feet tall and weighs *x* pounds. Skin coloration varies from light brown to coal black. 

A 10-foot ogre weighs 650 pounds, while a 12-foot fire giant weighs 7,000 pounds.

Frightful Presence (Su): In its headless corpse form, a kapre can unsettle foes with its mere presence. The ability takes effect automatically whenever the kapre moves, attacks, or charges. Creatures within a radius of *X* feet are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than the kapre. A potentially affected creature that succeeds on a DC 14 Will save remains immune to that kapre's frightful presence for 24 hours. On a failure, creatures with 4 or less HD become panicked for 5d6 rounds and those with 5 or more HD become shaken for 5d6 rounds. Agtas, kapres, and other similar fey ignore the frightful presence of other kapres.

60 feet?


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## freyar (Jan 10, 2008)

Wow, fire giants are heavy!  Let's go with 700 lb maybe?

60 ft is good.


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## Shade (Jan 11, 2008)

Next!

*Batibat (Demon)*
Freq: Very rare
# App: 1
AC: 4
Move: 12"
HD: 6
% in Lair: 80%
Treasure type: R
# Att: 2
Dmg/Att: 2-12
SA: ride
SD: none
MR: standard
Int: low-average
Alignment: Chaotic neutral
Size: L (8-10 ft.)
Psionics: nil
Level/XP Value: Agta: V/475 + 6/hp

The Batibat is a relative of the Agta and Pugot, but does not have their shapechanging abilities. It is a dark-skinned humanoid, 8-10 ft. tall and broad enough to fill a doorway as it enters.  The only magical ability it possesses is the ability to ride a sleeping victim in the same manner as a Night Hag, although it will only do this under great provocation.  In the one story where this occurs, the Batibat attacks members of a family which owns a large post--all that remains of its home tree, which it still inhabits.  It is not known what happens to the souls of those ridden to death by a Batibat.

From Imagine Magazine #25 (1985)


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## Shade (Jan 11, 2008)

Here's the Wikipedia entry:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batibat


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## freyar (Jan 11, 2008)

Fey again?


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## Shade (Jan 11, 2008)

Yeah, I figure all the "Filipino Demons" will probably be fey.


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## freyar (Jan 13, 2008)

Similar abilities to the large agta (Str 24, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 11)?  Maybe less Str since it's not so much of a melee masher and more Cha for its special ability?  Maybe Str 20, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 17?


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## Shade (Jan 14, 2008)

That's fine, although I'm not sure Charisma affects its ability.

Here's the night hag's ability...

Dream Haunting (Su): Night hags can visit the dreams of chaotic or evil individuals by using a special periapt known as a heartstone to become ethereal, then hovering over the creature. Once a hag invades someone’s dreams, it rides on the victim’s back until dawn. The sleeper suffers from tormenting dreams and takes 1 point of Constitution drain upon awakening. Only another ethereal being can stop these nocturnal intrusions, by confronting and defeating the night hag.


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## freyar (Jan 14, 2008)

Hmmm.  No save, then.  Well, we can lower Cha back to 11 if you want.

Do we want to limit this to C or E creatures for the batibat?  I'd say no.  Also to consider: should this ability rely on a talisman like the night hag's heartstone?  A point in favor is that the agta has a strength talisman.


----------



## Shade (Jan 14, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Hmmm.  No save, then.  Well, we can lower Cha back to 11 if you want.
> 
> Do we want to limit this to C or E creatures for the batibat?  I'd say no.  Also to consider: should this ability rely on a talisman like the night hag's heartstone?  A point in favor is that the agta has a strength talisman.




Yeah, let's not raise Cha.

I'd agree with no alignment limitation.  I could see the talisman as a focus.



> Spell-Like Abilities: A night hag can use etherealness at will (caster level 16th) so long as it possesses its heartstone (see below).
> 
> Heartstone
> All night hags carry a periapt known as a heartstone, which instantly cures any disease contracted by the holder. In addition, a heartstone provides a +2 resistance bonus on all saving throws (this bonus is included in the statistics block). A night hag that loses this charm can no longer use etherealness until it can manufacture another (which takes one month). Creatures other than the hag can benefit from the heartstone’s powers, but the periapt shatters after ten uses (any disease cured or saving throw affected counts as a use) and it does not bestow etherealness to a bearer that is not a night hag. If sold, an intact heartstone brings 1,800 gp.




Rewriting the agta's talisman...

Talisman (Su): A batibat bears a talisman that is the source of its strength. If taken or otherwise obtained from the batibat, the batibat suffers 1d4 points of Strength damage, which is then transferred to the recipient as an enhancement bonus to Strength for 24 hours. If taken after its death, the bearer gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength for 24 hours.  A batibat that loses this talisman can no longer use etherealness until it is recovered.

Look OK?


----------



## freyar (Jan 14, 2008)

Looks good.


----------



## Shade (Jan 14, 2008)

> The Batibat is a relative of the Agta and Pugot, but does not have their shapechanging abilities.




Does this mean we should retain the great roar and rend abilities?  They aren't listed on the SA line, but might still be worth keeping, particularly the rend.


----------



## freyar (Jan 15, 2008)

Let's keep rend, but I'm not so sure about the roar.

On second thought, I'm not sure about the Str bonus talisman.  Maybe we should do something that just allows etherealness:

Talisman (Su): A batibat bears a talisman that allows it to become ethereal. If taken or otherwise obtained from the batibat, the recipient can become ethereal (as the spell ethereal jaunt) for 10 rounds per day (which need not be consecutive). A batibat that loses this talisman can no longer use etherealness until it is recovered.

What do you think?  This makes it a little more distinct from the agta.


----------



## Shade (Jan 15, 2008)

I'm fine with dropping the roar, but not the Strenght bonus from the talisman.



> All Filipino demons can become invisible at will, and each has a personal charm or jewel which is the source of its strength. If this can be won from the demon by wit or force, it will give the bearer the same strength (typically in the region of 18/01-23 -- the DM may select according to the power of the demon or roll on d6). Bright sunlight banishes them.


----------



## freyar (Jan 15, 2008)

Ahh, missed that.  Let's go with what you had before, then.


----------



## Shade (Jan 15, 2008)

Reduce damage reduction to 5/cold iron?

Skills: 6 at 9 ranks
We gave the agta Bluff, Diplomacy, Hide, Intimidate, Move Silently, Sense Motive, and Sleight of Hand.

Feats: 3
We gave the Agta Persuasive, Power Attack, and Stealthy.

Challenge Rating: 4?


----------



## freyar (Jan 18, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Reduce damage reduction to 5/cold iron?
> 
> Skills: 6 at 9 ranks
> We gave the agta Bluff, Diplomacy, Hide, Intimidate, Move Silently, Sense Motive, and Sleight of Hand.
> ...




In order: Yes.

Those skills look about right.  Do you think we need to change any to distinguish these?  

Same for the feats.

CR 4 looks reasonable.


----------



## Shade (Jan 18, 2008)

Welcome back, Freyar.    

Updated.  How's it looking?


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## freyar (Jan 18, 2008)

Think it's done!


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2008)

Next!

*Tikbalang (Demon)*
Freq: Very rare
# App: 1
AC: 1
Move: 12"/18"
HD: 6
% in Lair: 20%
Treasure type: I+R+U
# Att: 3 or 2
Dmg/Att: feet 1-8, claws 1-4, bite 1-8
SA: see below
SD: see below
MR: 10%
Int: very
Alignment: Chaotic evil
Size: M (6-7 ft.)
Psionics: nil
Level/XP Value: VII/1275 + 6/hp

The Tikbalang, Binangunan or Tulung is one of the most feared of Filipino demons.  It is humanoid in appearance, tall and gaunt, with a horse's head armed with sharp teeth.  Its straight black hair flows down over its shoulders, and its horse-like legs end in strong taloned feet.

It is, however, an adroit shapechanger, and commonly takes the form of an old man.  It enjoys misleading travelers into the bamboo thicket where it lairs, usually in a small hut.  Depending on its mood, it will then devour its victims ro turn invisible and enjoy the spectacle as they try to find their way out.  When a Tikbalang leads a victim into its thicket, it can cast over the victim a glamer similar to that caused by a maze spell - the victim will be trapped for the same length of time, although the effect does not include travel to another plane.

Apart from these abilities, the Tikbalang can fly at will by walking on air, and can cause blindness, disease, and insanity once each per day.  It can use a word of recall once per day, vanishing in a cloud of dust and falling stones similar in effect to the hailstone type of ice storm, which causes 1d6 damage to any within 10 ft. of the spot it vacates (saving throw halves damage).  In its natural form, it can also roar once per turn, causing fear as the spell unless the appropriate saving throw is made.  5% of Tikbalangs can also immolate in the same way as a Type VI demon, the flames causing 3d6 damage to any within range.

If forced into hand-to-hand combat, the Tikbalang will assume its natural form and can attack either with two claws and a bite or with its two talons.

The Tikbalang may be forced to surrender its charm if it can be ridden like a horse until exhausted.  The stone is a rounded pebble which glows like a hot coal, and no Tikbalang stone confers less than 20 strength; some may also confer other of the Tikbalang's abilities.  Tikbalangs have immense strength, and if pressed throw rocks as a stone giant or uproot trees to use as weapons.

Tikbalangs sometimes have great wealth, and are particularly enthusiastic collectors of holy symbols and other religious items, sometimes extorting them from villagers along with other valuables on a protection-racket basis.

From Imagine Magazine #25 (1985)


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## freyar (Jan 23, 2008)

Youch.  Given the special abilities this one has, should we consider increasing the HD?


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## Shade (Jan 24, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Youch.  Given the special abilities this one has, should we consider increasing the HD?




Hmmm...probably.  Maybe 12 HD?


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## RavinRay (Jan 25, 2008)

Here's some local folklore about the tikbalang. The presence of the creature is indicated by an unusual bird call. If the bird call sounds close, the tikbalang is far, and if it sounds distant, the tikbalang is near. People who are unaware of this assume the sound to be that of the tikbalang itself and are lulled into a false sense of security; in fact the bird call sounds near when the tikbalang is far because the bird tries to be as far away from the monster as possible, so when the tikbalang is near you the bird is far away from the tikbalang (and you). Trust me, that gives me the creeps!


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## freyar (Jan 25, 2008)

Definitely creepy.

Abilities?  Maybe we can base this off the medium agta and bump the strength (the talisman seems to grant a lot of strength).  What do you think?


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## Shade (Jan 25, 2008)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> Here's some local folklore about the tikbalang. The presence of the creature is indicated by an unusual bird call. If the bird call sounds close, the tikbalang is far, and if it sounds distant, the tikbalang is near. People who are unaware of this assume the sound to be that of the tikbalang itself and are lulled into a false sense of security; in fact the bird call sounds near when the tikbalang is far because the bird tries to be as far away from the monster as possible, so when the tikbalang is near you the bird is far away from the tikbalang (and you). Trust me, that gives me the creeps!




That is creepy, and we'll have to work it in.  

Here's how it looks using Freyar's suggestion of modeling it off a Medium agta:

Medium Fey
Hit Dice: 12d6+48 (90 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 40 ft. (perfect?)
Armor Class: 19 (+1 Dex, +8 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+13
Attack: Bite +13 melee (1d8+7)
Full Attack: Bite +13 melee (1d8+7) and 2 claws +8 melee (1d4+7)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Maze, rake, roar, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Damage reduction x/cold iron, immolate, low-light vision, spell resistance 3+CR, sunlight vulnerability, talisman 
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +9, Will +9
Abilities: Str 24, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 11
Skills: 6 at 15 ranks
Feats: 5
Environment: Any forests
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: x
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: x
Level Adjustment: -


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## freyar (Jan 29, 2008)

I think these are actually the large agta stats, but the str is probably about right.  Do we have some indication of dex and con?  The medium agta has both of these at 15.


----------



## Shade (Jan 29, 2008)

Oops.  You're right, those were the Large stats.  Dex and Con would be 15.  I could see leaving the Con at 19, though, since these guys are bit deadlier.


----------



## freyar (Jan 29, 2008)

I agree these are nastier.  Let's leave Con at 19.

Do we want to make the talisman 1d8 points of Str (based off of the agta talisman)?


----------



## Shade (Jan 29, 2008)

Sounds good.

Added to Homebrews.



> It is, however, an adroit shapechanger, and commonly takes the form of an old man.




Shall we adapt this?

Change Shape (Su): A doppelganger can assume the shape of any Small or Medium humanoid. In humanoid form, the doppelganger loses its natural attacks. A doppelganger can remain in its humanoid form until it chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, but a doppelganger reverts to its natural form when killed. A true seeing spell or ability reveals its natural form.

Skills: *When using its change shape ability, a doppelganger gets an additional +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks. If it can read an opponent’s mind, it gets a further +4 circumstance bonus on Bluff and Disguise checks.



> When a Tikbalang leads a victim into its thicket, it can cast over the victim a glamer similar to that caused by a maze spell - the victim will be trapped for the same length of time, although the effect does not include travel to another plane.




Here's the maze spell relevant text...

You banish the subject into an extradimensional labyrinth of force planes. Each round on its turn, it may attempt a DC 20 Intelligence check to escape the labyrinth as a full-round action. If the subject doesn’t escape, the maze disappears after 10 minutes, forcing the subject to leave.

On escaping or leaving the maze, the subject reappears where it had been when the maze spell was cast. If this location is filled with a solid object, the subject appears in the nearest open space. Spells and abilities that move a creature within a plane, such as teleport and dimension door, do not help a creature escape a maze spell, although a plane shift spell allows it to exit to whatever plane is designated in that spell. Minotaurs are not affected by this spell.



> Apart from these abilities, the Tikbalang can fly at will by walking on air, and can cause blindness, disease, and insanity once each per day. It can use a word of recall once per day, vanishing in a cloud of dust and falling stones similar in effect to the hailstone type of ice storm, which causes 1d6 damage to any within 10 ft. of the spot it vacates (saving throw halves damage).




SLAs:  At will (?)--greater teleport; 1/day--blindness/deafness, contagion, insanity.

Deadly Vanishing (Su):  When a tikbalang uses its greater teleport ability, a cloud of dust and falling stones appears in a 10-foot-radius centered on a square it exits.  This cloud lasts for 1 round and deals 1d6 points of bludgeoning damage.  (Should it affect visibility due to dust?)



> In its natural form, it can also roar once per turn, causing fear as the spell unless the appropriate saving throw is made.




Covered by great roar ability of agta?



> 5% of Tikbalangs can also immolate in the same way as a Type VI demon, the flames causing 3d6 damage to any within range.




Let's just make this standard for all tikbalangs.   Here's the balor's ability....

Flaming Body (Su): The body of a balor is wreathed in flame. Anyone grappling a balor takes 6d6 points of fire damage each round.

We should modify it so it isn't always active, but is something it can choose to activate.  And drop the damage to 3d6, of course.


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Jan 29, 2008)

I noticed that the original text listed the tikbalang's intelligence as "Very", so I would suggest raising it to 12.


----------



## Shade (Jan 29, 2008)

Good catch!  I raised the Int and skill points accordingly.


----------



## Shade (Jan 29, 2008)

Also...



> Tikbalangs have immense strength, and if pressed throw rocks as a stone giant or uproot trees to use as weapons.




Rock Throwing (Ex): The range increment is 180 feet for a stone giant’s thrown rocks. It uses both hands when throwing a rock.

Stone giant thrown rocks deal 2d8 damage.


----------



## freyar (Jan 29, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Shall we adapt this?
> 
> Change Shape (Su): A doppelganger can assume the shape of any Small or Medium humanoid. In humanoid form, the doppelganger loses its natural attacks. A doppelganger can remain in its humanoid form until it chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, but a doppelganger reverts to its natural form when killed. A true seeing spell or ability reveals its natural form.
> 
> Skills: *When using its change shape ability, a doppelganger gets an additional +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks. If it can read an opponent’s mind, it gets a further +4 circumstance bonus on Bluff and Disguise checks.



Just replace doppelganger by tikbalang, I guess.



> Here's the maze spell relevant text...
> 
> You banish the subject into an extradimensional labyrinth of force planes. Each round on its turn, it may attempt a DC 20 Intelligence check to escape the labyrinth as a full-round action. If the subject doesn’t escape, the maze disappears after 10 minutes, forcing the subject to leave.
> 
> On escaping or leaving the maze, the subject reappears where it had been when the maze spell was cast. If this location is filled with a solid object, the subject appears in the nearest open space. Spells and abilities that move a creature within a plane, such as teleport and dimension door, do not help a creature escape a maze spell, although a plane shift spell allows it to exit to whatever plane is designated in that spell. Minotaurs are not affected by this spell.




Entrapment (Su): A tikbalang can trap a subject in a mental maze; if the subject fails a DCX Will save (the save DC is Charisma-based), it perceives its surroundings as a maze.  Each round on its turn, the subject can take a full round action to make a DC 20 Intelligence check to discern the correct appearance of its surroundings.  If the subject fails all its Intelligence checks, this effect ends after 10 minutes.



> SLAs:  At will (?)--greater teleport; 1/day--blindness/deafness, contagion, insanity.
> 
> Deadly Vanishing (Su):  When a tikbalang uses its greater teleport ability, a cloud of dust and falling stones appears in a 10-foot-radius centered on a square it exits.  This cloud lasts for 1 round and deals 1d6 points of bludgeoning damage.  (Should it affect visibility due to dust?)




Yes to both the questions.


> Covered by great roar ability of agta?



I think so.



> Let's just make this standard for all tikbalangs.   Here's the balor's ability....
> 
> Flaming Body (Su): The body of a balor is wreathed in flame. Anyone grappling a balor takes 6d6 points of fire damage each round.
> 
> We should modify it so it isn't always active, but is something it can choose to activate.  And drop the damage to 3d6, of course.




Flaming Body (Su): As a swift action a tikbalang can wreathe its body in flames. Anyone grappling a balor takes 3d6 points of fire damage each round.  This effect continues until the  tikbalang ends it as a free action.  (Should we put in a way to dispel it?)


----------



## Shade (Jan 29, 2008)

As the abilities develop, I think Cha is a bit low.  Bump it to 15-17?


----------



## freyar (Jan 30, 2008)

Agreed.  This should be a scary monster, so it should have some real teeth.


----------



## Shade (Jan 30, 2008)

Updated.

Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 40 ft. (perfect?)

Damage reduction 10/cold iron?

Skills: 7 at 15 ranks
Feats: 5

Challenge Rating: 7?

Treasure: 
It had I, R, U

I:
3-18 100s of platinum pieces: 30%
2-20 gems: 55%
1-12 jewelry: 50%
Maps or Magic Items: Any 1: 15%

R:
2-8 1,000s of gold pieces: 40%
10-60 100s of platinum pieces: 50%
4-32 gems: 55%
1-12 jewelry: 45%

U:
10-80 gems: 90%
5-30 jewelry: 80%
Maps or Magic Items: 1 of each magic excluding potions & scrolls: 70%

So standard coins, triple goods, double items?

Advancement: 13-24 HD (Large); 25-36 HD (Huge)?

A tikbalang is 6-7 feet tall and weighs x pounds. 

Tikbalangs speak Common and Sylvan. (Add Abyssal?)


----------



## freyar (Jan 30, 2008)

Agreed on all the questions.  Let's make it 300 lb?  Will think about skills and feats in a bit.


----------



## Shade (Jan 30, 2008)

We probably need to add this as well:

Flight (Su): A tikbalang can walk on air at will, allowing it to effectively fly at a speed of 40 feet with perfect maneuverability. This also grants it a permanent feather fall effect (as the spell) with personal range.


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## freyar (Jan 31, 2008)

Flight sounds good.

Skills: Bluff, Intimidate, Disguise, Listen, Spot, Hide?, Jump?

Feats: Persuasive, Ability Focus (Great Roar), ?


----------



## Shade (Jan 31, 2008)

Updated.

I think the CR needs a boost.  Insanity is pretty powerful, and the thing is pretty hearty.  Maybe CR 8-9?


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## freyar (Feb 1, 2008)

Why not CR 9? They seem tough enough.


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## Shade (Feb 1, 2008)

CR 9 it is.  All done?


----------



## freyar (Feb 2, 2008)

Think so!


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## Shade (Feb 4, 2008)

*Aswang*
Freq: Very rare
# App: 1
AC: 4
Move: 12"/18"
HD: 5
% in Lair: see below
Treasure type: nil
# Att: 2
Dmg/Att: 1-3
SA: see below
SD: see below
MR: standard
Int: average-very
Alignment: Chaotic evil
Size: M (5-6 ft.)
Psionics: nil
Level/XP Value: 
Aswang: V/435 + 5/hp
Balbal: V/360 + 5/hp

The Aswang, Mangalok or Boroka has the appearance of a normal human woman, and indeed exists as such by day, often living a normal village life.  At night, however, she takes on her true nature, becoming a humanoid monster with a hag-like appearance, strong nails, and a very long threadlike tongue.  She may also shapechange at will to the form of a huge night-bird with the head of a woman.

The Aswang can sense death in the same way as the Segben, at a distance of up to 1 mile, and will sit on the roof of a house where the corpse lies, sucking out its blood and organs through her long tongue.  The tongue may be extended up to 12 ft. in length, and has a sharp point, but is so fine as to be indetectable 90% of the time, except to individuals with the ability to see invisible.  She will attack the living in the same way, piercing the jugular vein with her tongue as the victim sleeps, and draining blood at the rate of 1 hp per round.  Her saliva contains a local anasthetic, which requires sleeping victims to save vs poison or continue to sleep through the attack.  When fully gorged (having taken blood equal to half her original hit points) the Aswang's humanoid form appears swollen as if with an advanced pregnancy, and her movement rate is halved.  The Aswang is particularly vulnerable at this time, and takes great care not to be seen.

The Aswang will only fight if she cannot flee.  She uses her strong nails or the talons of her avian form in self-defence, a successful hit causing 1-3 points of damage in either case.

A human may become an Aswang in one of four ways:
1) By the application of a magical ointment compounded of chicken dropping dissolved in coconut oil and mixed with human flesh and blood, along with certain other magical operations;
2) the daughters of an Aswang will inherit her condition;
3) the kiss of a dying Aswang will pass on her condition to one willing initiate;
4) an Aswang may focure her condition upon another by lacing their food with human flesh or with her own saliva.

The ointment is the secret of the transformation ability; normally hidden about the house in a stoppered bamboo tube or clay jar, it is used every night to effect the transformation.  Human form may be regained by exposure to sunlight, or by washing off the ointment in fresh water.  The Aswang is repelled by salt, vinegar, and certain spices in the same way as a vampire is repelled by garlic.  Although the Aswang has certain vampiric tendencies, it is not classified as undead and is not vulnerable to holy symbols or other religious objects.

The Iqui is the rarer male Aswang.

The Balbal is a variant form of Aswang.  It is a forest-dweller, and does not change form, always appearing as a gaunt humanoid figure with very loose skin, which it can use to glide for distances of up to 60 ft after the manner of a flying squirrel.  Its tongue is thicker and stronger than that of an Aswang, and its modus operandi is to use its tongue to lift a corspe through a hole in the thatch which it has made with its strong nails.  The corpse is then taken back into the forest to be devoured.  In all other respects, the Balbal is identical to the Aswang.

From Imagine Magazine #25 (1985)


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## freyar (Feb 4, 2008)

Blood-sucking shape-changing harpies?!?  Wow, these Filipino demons are pretty awesome.  Int about 12?  They seem pretty weak, so maybe Str 8-9?


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## Shroomy (Feb 4, 2008)

This one doesn't scream out "fey" to me like the earlier ones...I would think monstrous humanoid, perhaps with the shapechanger subtype would be more appropriate.


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## Shade (Feb 4, 2008)

Shroomy said:
			
		

> This one doesn't scream out "fey" to me like the earlier ones...I would think monstrous humanoid, perhaps with the shapechanger subtype would be more appropriate.




Agreed.  This one isn't classified as a "demon", either.


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## RavinRay (Feb 5, 2008)

*ARRGGGHHH!!!*

The aswang is the number one monster used to scare us kids. We had a maid way back when I was young who used to terrorize me by claiming that the dark backyard behind my grand-aunt's house next to ours is haunted by the aswang at night. It didn't help that there was a star-apple tree in the middle of it, so we didn't know what was lurking behind it.

Okay, calm down, get a grip on yourself…

I agree with classifying it as monstrous humanoid (shapechanger).

How many of the well-known blood-draining monsters do hp damage as compared to Con damage? The vampire does the latter.


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## Shade (Feb 5, 2008)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> How many of the well-known blood-draining monsters do hp damage as compared to Con damage? The vampire does the latter.




As far as I can tell, no 3.5 monsters with blood drain do anything other than Con damage/drain.


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## freyar (Feb 5, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> As far as I can tell, no 3.5 monsters with blood drain do anything other than Con damage/drain.




So do we want to go with hp or Con damage?


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## Shade (Feb 5, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> So do we want to go with hp or Con damage?




I'd follow the standard and go with Con damage.

Some additional info from Wikipedia:



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> The trademark or major feature of Aswangs which distinguish them from other Filipino mythological creatures is their propensity to replace stolen cadavers with the trunk of a banana tree carved in the cadaver's likeness. They are also said to like to eat small children. Their favorite body parts are the liver and heart. Other local names, especially in Capiz are tik-tik and wak-wak.






			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> An aswang is a regular townsperson by day and prefer an occupation related to meat, such as butchery or making sausages.
> 
> Aswangs have an ageless appearance and a quiet, shy and elusive manner. They can be distinguished from humans by two signs. One is the bloodshot eyes from staying up all night looking for opportunities to sneak into houses where funeral wakes are being held, and stealing the dead bodies.
> 
> ...






			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> It is said that an Aswang can be revealed, with the use of a bottle of a special oil extracted from the boiled and decanted coconut meat and mixed with certain plant stems upon which special prayers were said. When an Aswang comes near or walks outside the house at night, the oil is supposed to boil (or froth into bubbles) and continue boiling until the aswang leaves the area. A Buntot Pagi, a stingray's tail, is also a very effective weapon against such beings, if one is brave enough to face the aswang in combat, a shiny sword made of sterling silver or an image of an old crone (a grandmother's) would effectively dispel their presence according to local folklore. The myth of silver weapons dispelling evil creatures is probably taken from western mythology. In the case of the Agitot type of aswang, freshly drawn semenal fluids thrown or whisked at the Agitot's way would distract this aswang from attacking as it would lap-away the precious fluids before pursuing its intended victim. Rumors have it, that this type of aswang continues to prevail among modern societies, hence the anecdotal/idiomatic expression "hiding in the closet" or closet-queen.
> 
> Throwing salt at aswangs may cause their skin to burn due to the purifying powers of the salt crystals in witchcraft. By "salt," this means all acid-base combinations, not limited to table salt alone. Hypochlorides and other types of salts may produce the same burning effect in Aswangs.




Creepy stuff!


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## GrayLinnorm (Feb 5, 2008)

From the information about them replacing bodies with duplicates, it sounds like they should have skill ranks in Craft (woodcarving).


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## freyar (Feb 5, 2008)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> From the information about them replacing bodies with duplicates, it sounds like they should have skill ranks in Craft (woodcarving).



 Agreed.  Abilities?  I earlier suggested Int 12, Str 8-9, but I don't have much of an idea for the other ones.  I guess it sounds like Dex is ok, maybe in the 12-15 range.


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2008)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> From the information about them replacing bodies with duplicates, it sounds like they should have skill ranks in Craft (woodcarving).




Sounds good.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Agreed.  Abilities?  I earlier suggested Int 12, Str 8-9, but I don't have much of an idea for the other ones.  I guess it sounds like Dex is ok, maybe in the 12-15 range.




Since they didn't have a damage penalty before, I'd stick with at least Str 10 (the balbal variant should be stronger, though).  Int 12 is good.  I'd say Dex should be the high stat, since it requires fine agility with that tongue.  Cha could be decent for disguises.

How about Str 10, Dex 16, Con 11, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 15?


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## freyar (Feb 6, 2008)

Looks pretty good.  Alternate form or change shape for this?  (Meaning specific human-like form, change of physical ability scores or not?)  I think I'd vote for change shape.


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## Shade (Feb 7, 2008)

I think change shape is a good choice.


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## freyar (Feb 7, 2008)

Ok, we have change shape and Con damage (1pt per round?).  Natural attack is talons with 1d3 damage.  Let's write these up:

Change Shape (Su): An aswang can assume the form of any humanoid female.  In addition, an aswang can take the form of a Medium birdlike creature with a woman's face and a long, tube-like tongue.  The aswang may use its talon attacks in its natural form or its birdlike form but not in humanoid form.

Blood Drain (Ex):  An aswang in birdlike form may insert its tongue into a sleeping or helpless victim and drain blood, dealing 1 points of Constitution damage per round that its tongue is attached. 

Do we want to use the following adapted from the stirge?


> Once it has dealt 4 points of Constitution damage, it detaches and flies off to digest the meal. If its victim dies before the aswang’s appetite has been sated, the aswang detaches and seeks a new target.


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## Shade (Feb 7, 2008)

Yes to all that.

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Feb 7, 2008)

Need to move the bit about detaching up above change shape.   Also, I was thinking, based on the flavor text, to change Blood Drain to:

Blood Drain (Ex): An aswang in birdlike form may insert its tongue into a sleeping or helpless victim and drain blood, dealing 1 points of Constitution damage per round that its tongue is attached.  Once it has dealt 5 (1/2 the aswang's Constitution score) points of Constitution damage, it detaches and flies off to digest the meal. While digesting, which takes one day per point of Constitution drained, the aswang appears to be pregnant.  If its victim dies, the aswang will replace the corpse with a likeness carved from a tree trunk.


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## Shade (Feb 7, 2008)

Updated.


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## freyar (Feb 7, 2008)

Environment: Forest or Urban?
Feats: Deceitful and Stealthy?

Should we add the bit about the tongue including a sleeping poison?


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## Shade (Feb 7, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Environment: Forest or Urban?




I get the impression that the aswang is urban, while the balbal is the forest-dweller.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Feats: Deceitful and Stealthy?




Those look appropriate.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Should we add the bit about the tongue including a sleeping poison?




Here's another creature with an anesthetic ability...

Anesthetize (Ex): A creature attacked by a leech swarm must succeed on a Spot check (opposed by the swarm's Hide check) to notice the attack if both the leech swarm and its target are in murky water at least 2 feet deep. Each round of blood drain entitles the creature to another Spot check to notice the leeches, with a cumulative +2 bonus on the check per round after the first. Characters attacked in clear water, or who have some means of detecting the leech swarm without seeing it, notice the attack immediately.


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## freyar (Feb 7, 2008)

Ok, but the victims are asleep, so I don't know if Spot is quite right, especially since the tongue is supposed to be super-thin.  How about:

Anesthetize (Ex): A victim of an aswang's Blood Drain ability must succeed on a DC X  Wisdom check (the save DC is Constitution based?) to notice the attack. Since aswangs generally attack sleeping victims, this Wisdom check is usually made with a -10 penalty.  Each round of blood drain entitles the creature to another Wisdom check to notice the aswang, with a cumulative +2 bonus on the check per round after the first.  Characters who have some means of detecting the aswang notice the attack immediately.

How's that look?


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## Shade (Feb 7, 2008)

That seems reasonable.



> The Aswang can sense death in the same way as the Segben, at a distance of up to 1 mile, and will sit on the roof of a house where the corpse lies, sucking out its blood and organs through her long tongue.




We haven't gotten to the segben yet, but its similar ability simply states:



> They can sense the smell of death at a distance of up to a mile




So maybe we can modify the keen scent ability of the shark to...

Corpse Scent (Ex):  An aswang can notice undead creatures by scent in a 180-foot radius and detect fresh corpses (dead less than a week?) up to a mile.


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## freyar (Feb 8, 2008)

Maybe add some flavor text that the aswang can get nourishment by using blood drain on a fresh corpse also?


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Maybe add some flavor text that the aswang can get nourishment by using blood drain on a fresh corpse also?




Will do.

Let's work on the "create spawn" ability...



> A human may become an Aswang in one of four ways:
> 1) By the application of a magical ointment compounded of chicken dropping dissolved in coconut oil and mixed with human flesh and blood, along with certain other magical operations;
> 2) the daughters of an Aswang will inherit her condition;
> 3) the kiss of a dying Aswang will pass on her condition to one willing initiate;
> ...


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## freyar (Feb 11, 2008)

Hmmm, so do we want to make all four of these into special abilities or just #3 and #4?  #1 and #2 don't seem so much to me like things that aswangs do.


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## GrayLinnorm (Feb 11, 2008)

After reading the part in Wikipedia about table salts, it sounds like they should have vulnerability to acid?


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2008)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> After reading the part in Wikipedia about table salts, it sounds like they should have vulnerability to acid?




Good idea.

How does this look for the others?

Create Spawn (Su):  With a kiss, an aswang may transform one willing female human into an aswang.  The new aswang is not under the control of its creator.  Additionally, an aswang may lace food or drink with her saliva.  A human female who ingests this saliva must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or transform into an aswang on the following night.  The save DC is Constitution-based.

I think #2 is still valid...we can just note in the flavor text that if an aswang mates with a human, female offspring become aswangs while male offspring remain human.  Sound reasonable?


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## freyar (Feb 11, 2008)

Create Spawn looks good.  I agree with the flavor text about the daughter being an aswang; I just didn't think it was an "ability" per se.  We could also add flavor that a human female can turn herself into an aswang via a vile ritual involving said ointment.  Yuck.


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2008)

> The Aswang is repelled by salt, vinegar, and certain spices in the same way as a vampire is repelled by garlic. Although the Aswang has certain vampiric tendencies, it is not classified as undead and is not vulnerable to holy symbols or other religious objects.




Repelling a Vampire: Vampires cannot tolerate the strong odor of garlic and will not enter an area laced with it. Similarly, they recoil from a mirror or a strongly presented holy symbol. These things don’t harm the vampire—they merely keep it at bay. A recoiling vampire must stay at least 5 feet away from a creature holding the mirror or holy symbol and cannot touch or make melee attacks against the creature holding the item for the rest of the encounter. Holding a vampire at bay takes a standard action.

Alternatively...

Vulnerability to Salt (Ex): A bloodsipper or pod denizen is affected by a quantity of salt, and will pull away from salt convulsively. If an opponent throws a handful or flask of salt as a grenade-like weapon, a direct hit deals 2d4 points of damage to a bloodsipper or pod denizen, or 1 point of damage from a splash of salt.


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2008)

> The Aswang is repelled by salt, vinegar, and certain spices in the same way as a vampire is repelled by garlic. Although the Aswang has certain vampiric tendencies, it is not classified as undead and is not vulnerable to holy symbols or other religious objects.




Repelling a Vampire: Vampires cannot tolerate the strong odor of garlic and will not enter an area laced with it. Similarly, they recoil from a mirror or a strongly presented holy symbol. These things don’t harm the vampire—they merely keep it at bay. A recoiling vampire must stay at least 5 feet away from a creature holding the mirror or holy symbol and cannot touch or make melee attacks against the creature holding the item for the rest of the encounter. Holding a vampire at bay takes a standard action.

Alternatively...

Vulnerability to Salt (Ex): A bloodsipper or pod denizen is affected by a quantity of salt, and will pull away from salt convulsively. If an opponent throws a handful or flask of salt as a grenade-like weapon, a direct hit deals 2d4 points of damage to a bloodsipper or pod denizen, or 1 point of damage from a splash of salt.


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## Shade (Feb 15, 2008)

Thinking more on this, how about:

Repelling an Aswang: Aswangs cannot tolerate the strong odor of vinegar and some other spices and will not enter an area laced with these substances. Similarly, they recoil from salt. These things don’t harm the aswang—they merely keep it at bay. A recoiling aswang must stay at least 5 feet away from a creature holding a handful of salt or spice, and cannot touch or make melee attacks against the creature holding the item for the rest of the encounter. Holding an aswang at bay takes a standard action.  If an opponent throws a handful or flask of salt or spice as a grenade-like weapon, the aswang must move at least 5 feet away from where it lands on its next action.


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## freyar (Feb 18, 2008)

I like it.  I've kind of lost track, but is this one about done?  Filling in Xs:

about 125-200 lb?  Common and Sylvan?

Environment: Urban?  Urban smaller than large city?

Treasure: should look this up, but Standard?

CR: 3-4?

Ah, needs skills and feats:

Skills: Craft (woodcarving), Survival, Spot all at 8 ranks?

Feats: Track (to help find corpses), ?


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2008)

Weight looks good.

Any urban should suffice.

Let's just go with Common, as it mostly is found in humanoid cities.

Skills look fine.

Stealthy for other feat?

Treasure was listed as nil, so none should suffice.



> The Balbal is a variant form of Aswang. It is a forest-dweller, and does not change form, always appearing as a gaunt humanoid figure with very loose skin, which it can use to glide for distances of up to 60 ft after the manner of a flying squirrel. Its tongue is thicker and stronger than that of an Aswang, and its modus operandi is to use its tongue to lift a corspe through a hole in the thatch which it has made with its strong nails. The corpse is then taken back into the forest to be devoured. In all other respects, the Balbal is identical to the Aswang.




As aswang, except as follows:

Special Attacks: Anesthetize, blood drain, create spawn
Special Qualities: Aswang weaknesses, corpse scent, darkvision 60 ft., gliding, vulnerable to acid
Environment:  Any forest

Modifying from Hadozee...

Gliding: A balbal can use its loose skin to glide, negating any damage from a fall of any height and allowing travel 20 feet horizontally for every 5 feet of descent. A balbal glides at a speed of 60 feet (poor maneuverability). 

Increase Strength?


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## freyar (Feb 18, 2008)

Stealthy is good, as is no treasure.

For the balbal, should we increase the strength or give it a special ability to move things with its tongue?


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2008)

Updated Homebrews.

I think we should increase Str to 18, which would allow it to lift a typical humanoid corpse (101-200 lbs.) as a medium load.   Since a creature can normally only fly with a light load, we'd either need to increase the Str to 23 (200 lbs. or less), or note that it can glide while carrying a medium load.  I think I'd prefer the latter.


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## freyar (Feb 20, 2008)

I'd go with Str 18 and the special gliding ability.  I think it sounds pretty much done.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2008)

Updated.

All done?


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## freyar (Feb 20, 2008)

Looks good to me!


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2008)

*Mansalauan*
Freq: Very rare
# App: 1-12
AC: 7
Move: 4"/18"
HD: 1+1
% in Lair: 20%
Treasure type: nil
# Att: 2
Dmg/Att: 1-4/1-4
SA: see below
SD: see below
MR: standard
Int: animal
Alignment: Neutral (evil tendencies)
Size: S
Psionics: nil
Level/XP Value: II/44 + 2/hp

The Mansalauan is a flying creature sharing the characteristics of both hawk and bat.  It has a reptilian head with glowing gemlike eyes, while its tail is long and fine, like a woman's hair.  In addition to its wings it has a monkey-like pair of hands, and a strong pair of talons the size of human feet.

Its main attack is with its sharp tongue, which it can shoot forth from its mouth with great speed.  It normally attacks in the same manner as a stirge, seizing a victim in its hands and claws and piercing the neck or abdomen with its tongue.  A separate attack roll is needed for the tongue, but this is made at +4 if the claw attack has been successful.

Once attached, the Mansalauan drains 1-4 points of damage on a successful hit, but for each round of such defence the Mansalauan has a cumulative 5% chance of falling or being knocked from its victim.

From Imagine Magazine #25 (1985)


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## freyar (Feb 26, 2008)

Hmmm.  Do you just want to make the attach and blood drain the same as the stirge?  Int shouldbe 1-2, I guess, and Con seems to be 12-13.  I guess I'd make Str 10, Dex 12-15, Wis 10ish, Cha a little lower.  What do you think?


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2008)

These fellas are kinda boring, eh?

Here are the relevant stirge abilities.

Attach (Ex): If a stirge hits with a touch attack, it uses its eight pincers to latch onto the opponent’s body. An attached stirge is effectively grappling its prey. The stirge loses its Dexterity bonus to AC and has an AC of 12, but holds on with great tenacity. Stirges have a +12 racial bonus on grapple checks (already figured into the Base Attack/Grapple entry above).

An attached stirge can be struck with a weapon or grappled itself. To remove an attached stirge through grappling, the opponent must achieve a pin against the stirge.

Blood Drain (Ex): A stirge drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution damage in any round when it begins its turn attached to a victim. Once it has dealt 4 points of Constitution damage, it detaches and flies off to digest the meal. If its victim dies before the stirge’s appetite has been sated, the stirge detaches and seeks a new target.


Sizing a stirge up to Small yields the following ability scores:

Str 7, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 6

As you noted, Con should be 12-13 to account for the "+1".  We could raise Str to 10 and drop Dex to 15.


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## freyar (Feb 27, 2008)

Str 10, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 6 sounds about right.  Bat-things shouldn't be as agile as insect-things, but they should be stronger, I think.

So, do we just copy the stirge abilities, or do we mix things up a little?  Certainly just going with the stirge is easiest, but I almost get the feeling that these get a tongue attack before being attached (or maybe it's just 2 claw attacks).


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 27, 2008)

I saw claw, claw, tongue. If both claws hit, it's attached and it gets a +4 bonus on the tongue attack.

What say we add a little something extra into the mix to keep them from being a pure stirge rip-off? Disease seems a likely choice. Filth fever? Cackle fever? Blinding sickness?

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Feb 27, 2008)

The damage/attack line only has two attacks, though.  I'd personally like to give it a tongue attack  even when it's not attached, though, just doing a little hp damage.  Con damage only when attached.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 27, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> The damage/attack line only has two attacks, though.  I'd personally like to give it a tongue attack  even when it's not attached, though, just doing a little hp damage.  Con damage only when attached.



Presumably, the claws do damage as one attack, like a hawk or other small bird. That makes sense.

What doesn't make sense is giving it a tongue attack when it's drinking blood. Its tongue should be in the wound, lapping away. Does it drink blood through its claws? Having a tail whip attack that goes while it's drinking makes sense, but not a tongue.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Feb 27, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Presumably, the claws do damage as one attack, like a hawk or other small bird. That makes sense.
> 
> What doesn't make sense is giving it a tongue attack when it's drinking blood. Its tongue should be in the wound, lapping away. Does it drink blood through its claws? Having a tail whip attack that goes while it's drinking makes sense, but not a tongue.
> 
> Demiurge out.



 Effectively having one claw attack makes sense.  Good.  

I thought the deal with the tongue is that it pierces the body with the tongue and then sucks blood through that wound.  But then I'm not sure why it seems to need to attack multiple times.


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## Shade (Feb 29, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

I've attached the image for possible inspiration.

Note that the tail is like fine woman's hair, so might not deal any damage (though could daze a foe or similar distraction).

It could almost make weak slam attacks with those hands.

Should disease be spread via the blood drain ability (like a transfusion "backwash"), or simply via the natural attacks.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 29, 2008)

I say:

1) Weak slam attacks with its arms.
2) Disease transmitted through blood drain.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 3, 2008)

I don't think I'd go with anything for the tail.  Weak slams and blinding sickness sound good (only through blood drain).


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2008)

Let's finalize these abilities:

Blood Drain (Ex): A mansalauan drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution damage in any round when it begins its turn attached to a victim.  Additionally, the victim is susceptible to the mansalauan's disease (see below).  Once it has dealt 4 points of Constitution damage, it detaches and flies off to digest the meal. If its victim dies before the mansalauan's appetite has been sated, the mansalauan detaches and seeks a new target.

Disease (Ex):  A mansalauan spreads disease when it successfully drains blood.  Filth fever? Cackle fever? Blinding sickness?

Since filth fever is a bit overused, I'd rather go with one of the other two.  Any preference?

Is the blood drain/disease combo clear enough as written?


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## freyar (Mar 3, 2008)

I think that looks pretty good.  Let's go with blinding sickness, just because I said.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 3, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> I think that looks pretty good.  Let's go with blinding sickness, just because I said.



Agreed, to both.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2008)

Updated.

Skills: 4
Feats: 1
Environment: x
Organization: Solitary or x (2-12)
Challenge Rating: x
Alignment: x
Advancement: x


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 4, 2008)

Skills: Hide +7, Listen +2, Move Silently +3, Spot +2
Feats: Weapon Finesse
Environment: Warm forests
Organization: Solitary or cloud (2-12) 
Challenge Rating: 1
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 2 HD (Small), 3 HD (Medium)

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 4, 2008)

That sounds about right. 

Good maneuverability?
+0 nat armor, since the AC is already higher than the original?


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## Shade (Mar 4, 2008)

All that looks good.

Updated.

A mansalauan is x feet long and weighs x pounds. (We've got flexibility here, as all we have to go on is "Size: S").

Looking at the original text again...



> Its main attack is with its sharp tongue, which it can shoot forth from its mouth with great speed. It normally attacks in the same manner as a stirge, seizing a victim in its hands and claws and piercing the neck or abdomen with its tongue. A separate attack roll is needed for the tongue, but this is made at +4 if the claw attack has been successful.




...it sounds like the initial tongue attack to pierce the flesh should deal some damage.

Another thought to differentiate them from the stirge...maybe the ability to smell blood like a shark by flicking its tongue to sample the air?


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## freyar (Mar 4, 2008)

2 feet long and 5 lb?

If we add damage to the blood drain/attach, maybe we should give it a separate tongue attack as well?  Then we can just say it automatically hits with its tongue when attached and then continues to use blood drain.  1d4 damage?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 4, 2008)

It sounds to me like we should make the initial tongue attack do the attaching, and the talons are separate. If we've got tongue + talons, we don't need those feeble slam attacks.

I also like Shade's scent idea.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 4, 2008)

Hmmm....

How about if the tongue has greater reach.  If it hits with the tongue, attach kicks in.  We could then adapt the following from the mind flayer...

If a mind flayer begins its turn with at least one tentacle attached, it can try to attach its remaining tentacles with a single grapple check. The opponent can escape with a single successful grapple check or Escape Artist check, but the mind flayer gets a +2 circumstance bonus for every tentacle that was attached at the beginning of the opponent's turn.

...for the talons and even tiny arms to grab on.

Whaddya think?

Here's an attempt at the ability to smell blood...

Bloodscent (Ex): A mansalaun can detect fresh blood at ranges of up to a mile by sampling the air with its sensitive tongue.  It can detect wounded, living creatures (except those that do not bleed, such as elementals) as if it possessed the scent ability.


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## freyar (Mar 4, 2008)

All this sounds good.  I agree to drop the slams once we add the tongue attack w/reach.


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2008)

Updated.

How do the tongue attack and attach look?


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## freyar (Mar 5, 2008)

This looks good.

Shouldn't the talons have the same attack bonus in both the attack and full attack lines?

Also, you need a space between "a" and "mansalauan" at the start of the 3rd paragraph of attach.

Otherwise, I think it's done.


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2008)

Updated.

I fixed the attack lines and the spacing issue.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 6, 2008)

Looks good to me. Print it, call it a day, move onto the next one.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 6, 2008)

Will do!

*Segben*
Freq: Very rare
# App: 1-3
AC: 7
Move: 18"
HD: 2+2
% in Lair: 10%
Treasure type: nil
# Att: 1 or 2
Dmg/Att: hooves 1-3, bite 1-4 + special
SA: see below
SD: see below
MR: standard
Int: Low
Alignment: Chaotic evil 
Size: S (3 ft. at shoulder)
Psionics: nil
Level/XP Value: III/120 + 3/hp

The Segben is similar in appearance to a hornless goat, with glowing eyes and large ears.  It exudes a sickening charnel smell which requires any character coming with 5 feet of the beast to save vs. poison or attack at -1 for 2-8 turns through nauseas.

Segben are destroyed by sunlight, and generally hide in the darkest recesses of the forest until dusk, when they appear under the floor of a house where someone lies gravely ill or dying.  They can sense the smell of death at a distance of up to a mile, and will seize any opportunity to make off with an unguarded corpse.  They are not known to frequent graveyards, however, apparently preferring to move in immediately after death.

If surprised in their feast Segben will usually flee, fighting only if cornered or if the odds are heavily in their favour.  They can attack by lashing out with their small forehooves, but their most feared attack is their bite--if they successfully bite any victim, or even its shadow, the victim must make a System Shock roll or die immediately.

Although they have a number of ghoulish characteristics, Segben are not undead and are not affected by holy symbols or the like.

From Imagine Magazine #25 (1985)


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## GrayLinnorm (Mar 6, 2008)

Magical beast?

If the segben only needs to bite a victim's shadow, the bite could be a touch attack.

Sunlight vulnerability like a vampire.


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## GrayLinnorm (Mar 6, 2008)

Death Bite (Su?): Anyone bitten by a segben must make a Fortitude saving throw or die.  The segben only needs to bite the victim's shadow (make a touch attack) to use the death bite.  The save DC is constitution-based.

Charnel Stench (Ex): Anyone within five feet of a segben must make a Fortitude saving throw or be nauseated for 20-80 minutes.  The save DC is constitution-based.

Dangerous Denizens offers these ability scores:

Goat: Str 8, Dex 13, Con 11, Int 1, Wis 11, Cha 5
Trained Pack Goat: Str 11, Dex 13, Con 11, Int 1, Wis 11, Cha 5

Since it has a plus in its Hit Dice, Constitution could be higher.


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## freyar (Mar 6, 2008)

Sounds about right.  If there's a goat somewhere, we could base the physical abilities on that.  Otherwise, a dog might be close with Str 13, Dex 17, Con 15.  Int is Low (what's that, 4-7?), and I'd guess Wis should be 10ish.  The bite is probably a Cha-based DC, so it should have a reasonable Cha, say 12-15?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 6, 2008)

I'm pretty concerned with the save-or-die bite. Seems like it should be attached to something with a much higher CR than 2+2 HD would normally mean for our conversion process. Especially if it's a touch attack!

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 6, 2008)

Hmm, I missed the post with the goat stats.  I'd say let's go with the higher Con, so Con 12-13.  How about Str 8, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 12?

Regarding the bite: I don't think death from a bite is any worse than a cockatrice.  Raise dead is actually a lower-level spell than stone to flesh.  So maybe let's keep the Fort DC down (avoid ability focus, for example), and I think we're ok w/CR 2.  We can also make the touch attack a little less potent and reserve death only for an actual melee attack.


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## Shade (Mar 6, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> I'm pretty concerned with the save-or-die bite. Seems like it should be attached to something with a much higher CR than 2+2 HD would normally mean for our conversion process. Especially if it's a touch attack!




I tend to agree, and do see this point...



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Regarding the bite: I don't think death from a bite is any worse than a cockatrice. Raise dead is actually a lower-level spell than stone to flesh. So maybe let's keep the Fort DC down (avoid ability focus, for example), and I think we're ok w/CR 2. We can also make the touch attack a little less potent and reserve death only for an actual melee attack.




...stone to flesh only has a chance at level loss, while raise dead is a guarantee.

The catoblepas has a ranged touch death effect at CR 6, though, so it needn't be much higher CR.

Also, if we limit it to only being able to kill by biting the shadow, total darkness would prevent the effect from occurring.  Since full sunlight would destroy it, that leaves only shadowy illumination in which it can be used.

Thoughts?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 7, 2008)

Isn't a cockatrice CR 3? 

I say that we reverse Shade's suggestion. It can only kill by biting the real creature, but it can still attack the shadow for ordinary damage (or un-ordinary damage - maybe it does a point of Con damage or something like that, so it'll try to soften up victims by chewing on their shadows before biting them).

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 7, 2008)

The cockatrice is indeed CR 3, so not too terribly different.  Hmmm.  I like Demiurge's idea  to make the touch attack weaker.  We should also keep the Fort save DC low.  Do we also want to pump up the HD a little to help with a slightly higher CR?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 7, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> The cockatrice is indeed CR 3, so not too terribly different.  Hmmm.  I like Demiurge's idea  to make the touch attack weaker.  We should also keep the Fort save DC low.  Do we also want to pump up the HD a little to help with a slightly higher CR?



I like the idea. 

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 7, 2008)

Cockatrice is 5 HD and catoblepas is 6 HD.  How high would you like to bump these?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 7, 2008)

4-5 HD appeals to me. The catoblepas is a big brute with a high Con, and that's not what we're looking for here.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 7, 2008)

Let's go to 5HD and aim for CR3, like the cockatrice.  For the bite, maybe

Death Bite (Su): Anyone bitten by a segben must make a DCX Fortitude saving throw or die. Alternately, a segben may bite the victim's shadow (resolve as a melee touch attack) to instead deal 1 point of Constitution damage on a failed save. The touch attack does not deal hit point damage.  The save DC is constitution-based.


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## Shade (Mar 7, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2008)

Skills: 8 (Hide, Move Silently, Survival?)

Feats: 2  (Stealthy? Track?)

Organization: Solitary or x (2-3)

Alignment: Always? chaotic evil

Advancement: 6-10 HD (Small); 11-15 HD (Medium)?

A segben is 3 feet tall at the shoulder and weighs x pounds.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 10, 2008)

Your suggestions all look good, Shade, although I'd go for "usually" instead of "always" on the alignment. 

As for the group noun, a lurk? A creep? A family?

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2008)

I like "lurk".  I went with the weight ranges I found for a similarly-sized mountain goat.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2008)

*Mantabungal*
Freq: Very rare
# App: 1-6
AC: 7
Move: 15"
HD: 4
% in Lair: 20%
Treasure type: nil
# Att: 2 or 3/2
Dmg/Att: hooves 1-4, tusks 1-10
SA: nil
SD: nil
MR: standard
Int: Animal
Alignment: neutral
Size: L
Psionics: nil
Level/XP Value: III/85 + 4/hp

These ferocious beasts are described as having a bovine body with a shaggy coat like a yak.  They have no horns, but their jaws are equipped with two sets of huge boarlike tusks, one pointing upwards and the other downwards.  Mantabungal are forest-dwellers, and appear to be similar to wild boars in their habits.  They are extremely aggressive, and will attack on sight.

Their main weapon is their tusks, with which they can attack three times in two melee rounds; they have been known to engage two opponents at once, attacking each alternately.  They can also lash out with their forehooves, but not while fighting with their tusks.  They are sometimes thought of as demons, but have no personal charms nor any of the typical abilities of other Filipino demons; this reputation may have arisen as a result of their ferocity.

From Imagine Magazine #25 (1985)


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 10, 2008)

This one seems pretty straightforward. Boar + magical beast type + permanently hasted. Not too terribly exciting.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 10, 2008)

Yeah, I'd agree with that.  Probably something like Power Attack & Cleave for the feats, too, given that they like to attack multiple opponents.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 11, 2008)

Sounds good to me!

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2008)

Hmmm...I was expecting to find some more information on them in Wikipedia, but no luck.  In fact, Google didn't even yield any results.  I wonder if they go by another name?

Since it large and bovine, but also resembles a boar, let's look at the relevant stats from some of those creatures:

Bison: Str 22, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 4
Dire Boar: Str 27, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 8
Gorgon: Str 21, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 9

So Str 21-27, Dex 10, Con 16-21, Int 2, Wis 11-13, Cha  4-9

It sounds like this is still appropriate:

Ferocity (Ex): A dire boar is such a tenacious combatant that it continues to fight without penalty even while disabled or dying.

Here's a permanent haste ability:

Alacrity (Su): Once per round, the mithral golem may take an extra standard action (either before or after its other actions in the round). 

Here's one we came up with:
Arboreal Alacrity (Su): When making a full attack action, an actaeon may make one extra attack with any manufactured weapon it is holding. The attack is made using the creature's highest attack bonus with that weapon.


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## freyar (Mar 11, 2008)

Since this is lower HD than the dire boar, let's go toward the low end of the stats.  Maybe Str 21, Con 16, Wis 11, Cha 4?  I agree that ferocity looks good.  I think the "arboreal alacrity" version works a bit better for this creature than the mithral golem one.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 11, 2008)

Yeah, one extra attack. Although its move speed should also be pretty high.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

I borrowed the height and weight from the bison.

Give it scent like boars?

Skills: 7 (Listen 4, Spot 3?)

Feats: 2  (Dire boars have Alertness, Endurance, Iron Will; I can easily see Power Attack)

Organization: Solitary or x (2-6) (x=herd, like a boar?)

Challenge Rating: 3? (A standard boar is CR 2, and this is tougher)


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## RavinRay (Mar 12, 2008)

I have to confess that I'm not familiar with the last few beasties because they're taken from different parts of the Philippines, and given our archipelagic nature, and 85+ linguistically-differentiated tribes, each has it's own but nonetheless related and parallel set of beliefs, myths, and monsters.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 12, 2008)

I agree with Freyar that this should have Power Attack and Cleave, given its penchant for fighting multiple foes at once. Herd is fine for organization. It should have Scent. I'd reverse your numbers on Spot and Listen, but otherwise agree with your skill allocation.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2008)

That all sounds fine to me, and I think CR 3 is right.


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## Shade (Mar 12, 2008)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> I have to confess that I'm not familiar with the last few beasties because they're taken from different parts of the Philippines, and given our archipelagic nature, and 85+ linguistically-differentiated tribes, each has it's own but nonetheless related and parallel set of beliefs, myths, and monsters.




Interesting.  Thanks for the insight!

I suggested greater Listen than Spot since that is how the boars had it, but have no problem with reversing them.

Updated.

Anything left?


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2008)

I think it's done.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 12, 2008)

Ditto.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 12, 2008)

Woot!  Thus ends that article's creatures.  I'll request some more critters from Echohawk for this thread.


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## Shade (Mar 14, 2008)

*HEADLESS HORSEMAN*

Rider
Frequency: Very rare
No. Appearing: 1
Armour Class: -1
Move: 9"
Hit Dice: 6
% in Lair: nil
Treasure Type: nil
No. of Attacks: 1
Damage: 3-18 (lance)/2-9 (sword)
Special Attacks: Fear
Special Defences: +2 or better weapon to hit
Magic Resistance: Immune to charm, sleep, hold or cold based attacks
Intelligence: Very
Alignment: LE
Size: M

Mount
Frequency: Very rare
No. Appearing: 1
Armour Class: 4
Move: 15"
Hit Dice: 4+4
% in Lair: nil
Treasure Type: nil
No. of Attacks: 3
Damage: 1-8/1-8/1-3
Special Attacks: none
Special Defences: magic or silver weapons to hit
Magic Resistance: Immune to charm, sleep, hold or cold based attacks
Intelligence: Animal
Alignment: NE
Size: L

Headless Horsemen are the spirits of cavalrymen who have died in violent circumstances - normally beheaded. Very often they were cavaliers or noblemen in life, and retain a sense of purpose into afterlife. They are normally encountered on roadways, heralded by the sound of approaching horses that will cause fear in all creatures of animal intelligence. The horseman will appear as a figure swathed in mist, so that the missing head cannot be detected from distance. Once within twenty yards, this abnormality will be visible, and all who see it must save vs magic or suffer the effects of a fear spell.

Most headless horseman are encountered riding pell-mell, as if to fufil some urgent mission. These will only attack in self-defence. Others, who take upon themselves the specific purpose of guarding a place or object, will offer single combat by word or action, charging with the lance and then using a sword in melee. They will never attack a cleric, except in self-defence, and may be turned as a spectre.

Originally appeared in Imagine Magazine #23 (1985).


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## freyar (Mar 14, 2008)

Same question about monster vs template.  Assuming the former, which I think I prefer here, we have a 6HD undead rider and 4HD undead (I assume) mount.  I'd say the rider should have stats something like Str 16-19, Dex 18-19, Con -, Int 14-17 ("Very" -- can't remember how much that is), Wis 10-11, Cha 14-17 (for fear).  Thoughts?


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## Shade (Mar 14, 2008)

Oddly enough, I think these work better as a template.    

Essentially, besides undead traits, all they add is damage reduction, a fear attack, and immunity to cold.

I'd say the template can only be applied to a humanoid with the Mounted Combat feat.

Thoughts?


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## freyar (Mar 14, 2008)

I'd agree with all that.  I'd also give them +2 turn resistance (like a spectre) and maybe a bump to some of the abilities.  We also need to write a mount.


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## Shade (Mar 14, 2008)

Here's a start...

"Headless horseman" is a template that can be added to any humanoid or monstrous humanoid creature with the Mounted Combat feat (referred to hereafter as the "base creature").

A headless horseman uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Size and Type: The creature’s type changes to undead (augmented humanoid or monstrous humanoid). Do not recalculate base attack bonus, saves, or skill points. Size is unchanged.

Hit Dice: Increase all current and future Hit Dice to d12s.

Special Attacks: A headless horseman retains all the special attacks of the base creature and gains the following attack.

Frightful Presence?

Special Qualities: A headless horseman retains all the special qualities of the base creature and gains immunity to cold and the special qualities described below.

Damage Reduction (Su): A headless horseman's body is tough, giving the creature damage reduction 10/magic. A headless horseman's natural weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. 

Turn Resistance (Ex): A headless horseman has +2 turn resistance.

Abilities: Same as the base creature except that, as undead creatures, headless horsemen have no Constitution score.

Skills: Headless horsemen gain a +x racial bonus on Ride checks.

Feats: Headless horsemen gain (some mounted combat feats) as bonus feats.

Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature +x.
Alignment: Usually lawful evil.
Advancement: By character class.
Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature +x.


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## freyar (Mar 14, 2008)

A nice start.  I'd agree with frightful presence, yes.  I think they should get a bump to some abilities, maybe +4 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Cha?  Or is that a bit much?  I could go as low as +2 Str, +2 Int.

Should the mount be a special quality?


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## Shade (Mar 14, 2008)

I'm thinking a template should be applied to its mount when it is converted.  Should it be able to create/call a new mount?

The mount basically gains the undead type, DR/magic or silver, immunity to cold, and probably the turn resistance of the horseman.

Looking at ability score modifiers for "similar" undead templates:

Death Knight: Str +4, Wis +2, Cha +2
Dread Warrior: Str +4, Int -6 (minimum 3), Cha -4 (minimum 3). 
Gravewight: Str +4, Dex +2, Wis +2, Cha +4
Huecuva: Str +2, Int -6, Wis +2, Cha +2
JuJu Zombie: Str +4, Dex +2, Int -4 (minimum 1), Cha +2
Swordwraith: No modifiers.


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## freyar (Mar 14, 2008)

I think it should be able to call or create a mount.  It is a horseman after all! 

Ok, what I suggested isn't too far off, if the gravewight isn't grossly overpowered.  What about Str +4, Int +2, Cha +2?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 14, 2008)

Gravewight bonuses sound right. I'd say make the headless horseman's DR be silver and magic, as opposed to just magic. Call mount sounds right, but I think the mount itself could be represented by a skeleton horse with better DR 

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 16, 2008)

I'd agree with all that.  I think the mount should also have some version of unnatural aura, like a spectre.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 16, 2008)

I'd say the headless horseman itself should have the aura, myself.

Demiurge out.


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## RavinRay (Mar 16, 2008)

Just an interjection at this point. Since all the Philippine monsters have been converted, I'll do a PDF of all of them using public domain fonts and art to give it an Asian feel, along with sidebars on the real-world myths of each of them; then I'll send it to the CC.


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## freyar (Mar 17, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> I'd say the headless horseman itself should have the aura, myself.
> 
> Demiurge out.



 See, I'd go for the mount because it's the noise of the hoof-beats that causes fear in animals.


> They are normally encountered on roadways, heralded by the sound of approaching horses that will cause fear in all creatures of animal intelligence.



We can ask Shade for a tie-breaker. 

RavinRay, that PDF sounds like it'll be nice.  Thanks!


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2008)

Why not give the unnatural aura to both?   If I had to choose one, I'd go with the horseman, though, since its the lack of a head that makes it so very unnerving, IMHO.

Added to Homebrews.



			
				RavinRay said:
			
		

> Just an interjection at this point. Since all the Philippine monsters have been converted, I'll do a PDF of all of them using public domain fonts and art to give it an Asian feel, along with sidebars on the real-world myths of each of them; then I'll send it to the CC.




Very cool!   Weren't there some more Philippine monsters in an early Dragon Magazine article?  If so, we might want to work on those and combine them all.


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## freyar (Mar 17, 2008)

Ok, I thought the frightful presence was the headless bit.  Sure, let's give unnatural aura to both.

Let's give it +8 to Ride checks.

Do you think CR +2 or +3?


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2008)

Good question.  Do we want to go with frightful presence for the horseman, and unnatural aura for the mount?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 17, 2008)

Hm... on second thought, that sounds pretty good. 

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 17, 2008)

Agreed, that's kind of how I imagined these things.


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2008)

Shall we modify this from the death knight?

Fear Aura (Su): Death knights are shrouded in a dreadful aura of death and evil. Creatures of less than 5 HD within 15 feet of a death knight that look at the death knight must succeed on a Will save or be affected as though by a fear spell from a sorcerer of the death knight's level. A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same death knight's aura for 24 hours.


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## freyar (Mar 17, 2008)

That sounds about right.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 18, 2008)

Do we want to keep the limitation of HD? This would fit with the death knight and the lich, to be sure, but would be little more than flavor for the sorts of PCs who'll end up fighting one.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 18, 2008)

I've never been a fan of the arbitrary max HD/levels on effects, so I'm fine with jettisoning it if the rest of you feel that way.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 18, 2008)

I'm for ditching it.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 19, 2008)

Fine with me, too.  What else do we need for the main h.h. template?


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## Shade (Mar 19, 2008)

Updated.

I think we just need to work on the mount.

We mentioned upthread...

- Call mount
- Skeletal horse with better DR
- Unnatural aura for the mount


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## freyar (Mar 19, 2008)

Using a heavy warhorse as a base, the skeleton has Str 18, Dex 15, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 1 with 4HD.  Give it DR 5/magic or silver (could go magic and silver).  A fair start?


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## Shade (Mar 19, 2008)

Looks good to me.

So...

Skeletal Heavy Warhorse
Large Undead
Hit Dice: 4d12 (26 hp)
Initiative: +6
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 13 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +2 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+10
Attack: Hoof +5 melee (1d6+4)
Full Attack: 2 hooves +5 melee (1d6+4) and bite +0 melee (1d4+2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 60 ft., damage reduction 5/magic and silver, immunity to cold, unnatural aura
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +3, Will +4
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 15, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 1
Skills: -
Feats: Improved Initiative (B)
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral

Unnatural Aura (Su): Animals, whether wild or domesticated, can sense the unnatural presence of a headless horseman's mount at a distance of 30 feet. They do not willingly approach nearer than that and panic if forced to do so; they remain panicked as long as they are within that range.


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## freyar (Mar 19, 2008)

I think that's "Darkvision 60ft," actually. 

Should we go the route of CR - and fold its CR into the horseman?  Otherwise, I think it looks good.  Maybe just call it a "Horseman's Mount" or something to distinguish it from a usual skeleton?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 20, 2008)

CR - sounds right. It's part of the horseman, essentially.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2008)

Updated.

For the mount, do we want it to rejuvenate each day after destruction?  Or should the horseman be able to call a replacement in some manner?  Obviously, the horseman shouldn't be without a mount for long if it is a recurring villain.


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## freyar (Mar 20, 2008)

I'd say call a replacement mount.  Maybe it could take a day, but I don't have too much of an opinion about the time.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 20, 2008)

Call a replacement mount in a ceremony that takes a minute, once per day at most.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2008)

How's this?

Mount:  Upon arising as an undead, the headless horseman is granted a special mount (see below).  Should the mount be destroyed, 24 hours later the headless horseman can create another mount through a special ceremony that requires one minute and the skeletal remains of a heavy warhorse.  

Other than that, I think we're finished, unless we want to create a sample headless horseman.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 20, 2008)

Let's make a sample. 5th level fighter, same as a ghost?

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 21, 2008)

That all sounds fair to me.  I'd work on the sample, but I'm wiped...


----------



## Shade (Mar 21, 2008)

Below is an attempt at a sample horseman.  Before we can finish that, though, we need to either finish this or drop it:



> Feats: Headless horsemen gain (some mounted combat feats) as bonus feats.




Headless Horseman, 5th-Level Human Fighter
Medium Undead (Augmented Humanoid)
Hit Dice: 5d12 (32 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
AC: x (+4 Dex, +6 natural, +x armor), touch x, flat-footed x
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+11
Attack: _+1 greatsword_ +10 melee (2d6+6/19-20) or masterwork heavy lance +10 melee (1d8+6/x3)
Full Attack: _+1 greatsword_ +10 melee (2d6+6/19-20) or masterwork heavy lance +10 melee (1d8+6/x3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. 
Special Attacks: Fear aura 
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 10/magic and silver, darkvision 60 ft., mount, +2 turn resistance, undead traits
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +1
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 18, Con -, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 17
Skills: Handle Animal +8, Intimidate +6, Ride +22
Feats: Mounted Combat (B), 2 more fighter bonus feats, 2 more
Environment: x
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 7
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually lawful evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +4


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## freyar (Mar 21, 2008)

Feats: A headless horseman gains Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge, and Trample as bonus feats if the base creature does not already have them.

Sound good to you?

The sample looks good so far.  I'd say "Any" for the environment, but I guess not underground.  Shouldn't mounted combat be a normal feat (as it is a requirement for the template)?  I'd give the sample also Power Attack, with Weapon Focus (greatsword) and maybe Cleave as the figher feats.


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## Shade (Mar 21, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Feats: A headless horseman gains Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge, and Trample as bonus feats if the base creature does not already have them.
> 
> Sound good to you?




Sounds good.  The vampire template grants a whopping five bonus feats, so I think three is reasonable.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> The sample looks good so far.  I'd say "Any" for the environment, but I guess not underground.  Shouldn't mounted combat be a normal feat (as it is a requirement for the template)?  I'd give the sample also Power Attack, with Weapon Focus (greatsword) and maybe Cleave as the figher feats.




I went with bonus feat for the Mounted Combat since it was on the Fighter Bonus feat list, and wanted to leave its two standard feats for those that aren't on the Fighter list, if needed.  It seems the norm nowadays is to denote bonus feats granted from classes in the same manner as those simply given to monsters.


What armor shall our horseman don?


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## freyar (Mar 21, 2008)

Let's see, is half-plate or a breastplate more appropriate for a 5th level fighter?

So Mounted Combat is one of the fighter feats, gotcha.


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## Shade (Mar 21, 2008)

A 5th-level NPC has 4,300 gp in gear.

+1 greatsword = 2,320
masterwork heavy lance  = 310
masterwork full plate = 1,650
-------------------
Total = 4,280

Plus, its AC works out 1 better with full plate (+8 armor, +1 max Dex) vs. breastplate (+5 armor, +3 max Dex).

Looks good, eh?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 21, 2008)

Makes sense to me.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 22, 2008)

I like it too.  So is this done?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 23, 2008)

My gut says "yes".

...it also says "go have some chocolate for Easter."

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 24, 2008)

My gut said something similar, and now it's saying "no more".    

Here's another from the same issue:

*REVENANT-MAGNA*
Frequency: Very rare
No. Appearing: 1
Armour Class: 0
Move: 18"
Hit Dice: 10
% in Lair: nil
Treasure Type: nil
No. of Attacks: 2
Damage: 2-12/2-12
Special Attacks: fear, insanity
Special Defences: +1 or better weapons to hit
Magic Resistance: 80%
Intelligence: Exceptional
Alignment: LE
Size: M

Revenant-Magnas are the spirits of innocents slain in an evil fashion. Unlike ordinary revenants, they may only arise from the body of persons too weak to defend themselves in life; a child, or an adult with strength of less than 8. Once reborn, they are enormously strong and are driven by an insane desire for revenge - no trace of their former innocence will remain. As with a normal revenant, they will pursue the individual(s) who slew them, never resting, and never erring in their pursuit. They will ignore all those in their path, unless they seek to halt their pursuit, but all characters that see them must save vs spells or be driven insane.

One last diabolical twist separates these creatures from the normal revenant; their need for revenge is such that, should their quarry be slain by someone else, they will pursue the slayer with equal vigour. It is possible for a 'chain' of responsibility to be built up, and for the revenant-magna to finally achieve its purpose on an entirely blameless individual.

Originally appeared in Imagine Magazine #23 (1985).


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## freyar (Mar 24, 2008)

First question, then: template like the WotC revenant or monster like the Pathfinder one?  These seem easy enough to do as a template.


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## Shade (Mar 24, 2008)

I too think this lends itself well to a template.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 24, 2008)

I dunno about template. If the victim is supposed to be a child or someone too weak to defend themselves, slapping a template onto them isn't going to help over-much. They'll still have 1 hit die. Not to mention the can of worms that opens up making a child in D&D...

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 24, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> I dunno about template. If the victim is supposed to be a child or someone too weak to defend themselves, slapping a template onto them isn't going to help over-much. They'll still have 1 hit die. Not to mention the can of worms that opens up making a child in D&D...




Good point, I had mainly been thinking about adding a massive Str bonus.  But you're right, something would have to be done about the HD.  I think I'll change my vote to "monster."  Shade, what do you think?


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## Shade (Mar 25, 2008)

Good point.  I'm convinced.

A standard revenant gains +4 Strength and +2 Charisma.  Since this isn't a template, that isn't infinitely useful other than to show us what abilities we might wish to focus on.

Other abilties of standard revenants:
- Turn immunity
- immune to acid, gas, cold, electricity, and polymorph
- fast healing 3
- DR 5/magic

Plus, these special abilities:

Paralyzing Glare (Ex): The first time a revenant confronts its killer, the latter must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the revenant's Hit Dice and/or levels + the revenant's Charisma modifier) or be paralyzed for 2d4 rounds.

Vengeful Strike (Ex): Any melee attack the revenant makes against its killer inflicts an additional +1d10 points of damage.

Find the Guilty (Ex): So long as the revenant and its killer are on the same plane of existence, the revenant knows in which direction its killer can be found and how far away he or she is. Depending on the magical abilities of the base creature, this extraordinary sense may even be made to work across planar boundaries.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 25, 2008)

I like the immunities/resistances of the standard revenant. The paralyzing gaze appears to be replaced by insanity gaze, although I think we can reduce that to Wis damage + confusion. It mentions "fear", but doesn't give any context, so I think we should replace the vengeful strike with an attack that forces a Will save not to cower for a round, like the scarecrow you and BOZ did for the Creature Collection in Dragon Magazine.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 25, 2008)

Agreed with all that, but let's bump the DR to 10/magic b/c it has enough HD for that.  Also, Find the Guilty should expand to include anyone who killed the revenant-manga's murderer.


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## Shade (Mar 25, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Agreed with all that, but let's bump the DR to 10/magic b/c it has enough HD for that.  Also, Find the Guilty should expand to include anyone who killed the revenant-*manga's* murderer.




I'm glad I'm not the only one that keeps thinking "manga" when I see the name.    

I agree with everything discussed above.

Let's decide on ability scores.

Exceptional Int = 15-16.

The damage output equaled a 2e mummy.  Mummy's have Str 24 in 3e.  I could see a bit less, though.  Maybe 20?

Cha should be at least 12 (due to the +2 from the standard revenant template).  A wight and mummy are Cha 15, and I could easily see them being on par.

Dex is probably average.  Wis probably in the 13-14 range (compare to wights and mummies).


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## GrayLinnorm (Mar 25, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'm glad I'm not the only one that keeps thinking "manga" when I see the name.




When I saw the name, I thought it was "magma".


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2008)

Where does this name come from anyway?   Something like magna cum laude?

Str 20, Dex 11, Con -, Int 15, Wis 14, Cha 15?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 26, 2008)

Ability scores sound right to me.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

I followed Demiurge's suggestion and borrowed the cowering touch from the scarecrow.



			
				demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> The paralyzing gaze appears to be replaced by insanity gaze, although I think we can reduce that to Wis damage + confusion.




I'm fine with that.  How much Wis damage?   1d4 points?

I find it interesting that these things are often based off children, yet they are Medium in size.  The flavor text is a bit scarce, but I almost wonder if they were originally intended to be incorporeal (although I don't want to go that route).


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2008)

Let's do 1d4.  Alignment looks right, btw.

Skills: Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival ?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 26, 2008)

1d4 Wisdom damage looks right. 

Regardless of them being children, we could mention in the description that they look stretched and emaciated, as if they were pulled by unnatural force into their current shape. 

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Regardless of them being children, we could mention in the description that they look stretched and emaciated, as if they were pulled by unnatural force into their current shape.




Me likey!


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## freyar (Mar 27, 2008)

Next, how about this:

Insanity Glare (Su): The first time a revenant-magna confronts its killer (or killer's killer, etc), the latter must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the revenant-magna's Hit Dice + the revenant's Charisma modifier) or be take 1d4 points of Wisdom damage and be confused as the spell for X rounds.

2d4 rounds for that, or maybe based on CL?


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2008)

Looks good.  Let's rename it to "maddening glare" since it doesn't actually cause insanity (in the D&D sense).

2d4 rounds sounds reasonable to me.


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## freyar (Mar 27, 2008)

Sounds good.  Any other special abilities for this one?


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2008)

Updated.

I dropped Survival since they can "auto-track" their quarry with their find the guilty ability.

Feats: 4
Ability Focus (maddening glare)? Iron Will? Power Attack?

Challenge Rating: x

Alignment: Usually(?) lawful evil

Advancement: x

Height/weight?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 27, 2008)

All of your suggestions sound good. I say add Weapon Focus (slam).

I'd say CR 7.

Advance by character class?

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Advance by character class?




That would be a good way to approximate a template without being a template.

6 foot tall and 150 pounds?


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## freyar (Mar 27, 2008)

That all sounds good to me.  Looks done, too.


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## Shade (Apr 3, 2008)

This next batch is basically 5 conversion in one.  Echohawk sent me a scan of the article, so here goes:

*Greater Vampires*

It is a fair comment to make that above medium levels of play, a vampire, though dangerous, is no longer deadly.  Bearing in mind its unique weaknesses (eg its attitude to the presentation of a mirror) the vampire as a race is in danger of being overshadowed by other powerful monsters.  Yet like dragons the vampire is one of the classic creatures to face, and it seems a shame that the monster is not represented at high levels of play.  Good DMing can mitigate this, but even so, in a straight fight a vampire is more frustrating than fatal. Rather than substantially alter the AD&D vampire, a new hierarchy of "greater vampires" is given.  It is suggested that a normal vampire ascends to "greater" status after 999 years of unlife, with promotion to the next level after a similar period and so on.  Except where noted otherwise a greater vampire should be treated as per MM1.

*Greater Vampire Powers*

A greater vampire may, in one segment, change form to a wolf or bat.  In the new form the vampire loses all special attacks but retains all defensive powers, as well as keeping AC and movement rates.  In wolf-form the vampire also retains its strength and may employ a bite attack for the damage appropriate to title. Of course, this bite can neither suck blood, drain levels, nor inflict vampirism.

These shape-changed forms are much used by greater vampires to roam about the country side without discovery.  Very often the monster deliberately kills creatures while in wolf-form so that other unexplained disappearances will be attributed to the "rogue wolf" and not the actions of a more deadly enemy!

A greater vampire is also capable, in one round, of changing form to that of any human or demi-human norm of desired age, sex, and appearance.  Unlike the previous power the vampire's clothing and belongings remain as normal.  Although the vampire's voice is also altered, the new facial appearance will always, in some subtle respect, resemble the vampire's own/ the type of similarity one can recognize after the fact has been pointed out...  In the new state the vampire again loses all special attacks, but apart from AC and movement, retains its defensive powers.  The vampire still has its own strength and can attack once per round for a base damage according to size plus the damage bonus due to strength.

In any altered form a greater vampire does not leave a reflection and moves with the silence associated with the undead.  The monster can only ingest fresh blood or small amounts of raw meat.  Normal and giant-sized animals will sense something amiss in the vampire's presence, but will not attack or otherwise indicate that it is the vampire that is making them nervous.  Only if physical contact occurs will the animal realise the source of its unease.

A greater vampire can change between forms as desired, eg from vampire to bat to gaseous.  In any form it has the abiltiy to "see" the life-form of creatures up to a distance of 12".  Even 'elemental' lifeforces can be detected, as can the absence of life generated by other undead.  Only animated (eg golems) and magicallly protected creatures cannot be so "seen"; thus the various forms of invisibility are useless unless combined with such powers as an amulet of proof vs. detection and location.

In addition, greater vampires also possess supernatural sense of smell as well as an excellent sense of hearing (treat as equivalent to an owl).  From scent alone the vampire can recognize race, sex, etc, plus the presence of armor and other such factors.  Even the presence of magic and its type can be picked up, and if provided with a fairly recent scent of a creature the vampire may even know alignment.

In true-form only, a greater vampire also has the following powers:

When desired, and in any event when overtly stressed, the monster can exude a foul stench that will affect all creatures within a 3" radius as the stench of a ghast.  Apart from holy water the stench will also spoil food and drink.

A greater vampire continually radiates fear that affects creatures as below (no saving throw).
12" radius:  all normal and giant-sized animals become agitated.
6" radius: as above, plus untrained animals will attempt to flee
3" radius: as above, plus trained animals also attempt to flee

Obviously, rats, bats, and wolves are immune to these effects as are non-intelligent animals, and those animals under the vampire's control.

In human-kind the vampire is especially feared:  any zero-level human that gazes upon the vampire's true face will be turned permanently insane (no save): 75% catatonia, 25% suicidal mania.

Once per turn a greater vampire can breath forth a noxious vapor of cone dimensions 3" long, 1" high, and 2" base diameter.  Creatures within this area are automatically infected with a random disease, and must also save versus poison or else be helpless with nausea for 1-4 rounds.  The area of this breath attack remains highly infectious for a few days afterward.

Once per round a greater vampire can: cause sleep as a spell (5 times per night), knock as the spell, hold portal as spell (which will remain held for as long as the vampire stays within 6" and for 2-5 rounds afterwards; such held portals can still be broken down or dispelled as normal).

*The Five Greater Vampires*

_Lord_
AC: -1
Move: 18"/24"
HD: 10+5
% in Lair: 20%
Treasure: W
Dmg: 1-8+6
SA:
Blood drain: 1 pint
Charm: mammal
Hold: Person
Summon: III
SD:
Weapon Plus: +1
Regenerate: 4
Immunity (magic): cold
Immunity (turning): nil
Size: 7'
Strength: 18/00
XP:  7000+14

_Arch-Lord_
AC: -2
Move: 24"/30"
HD: 12+7
% in Lair: 15%
Treasure: W,Y
Dmg: 1-10+7
SA:
Blood drain: 2 pints
Charm: nil
Hold: nil
Summon: IV
SD:
Weapon Plus: +2
Regenerate: 5
Immunity (magic): nil
Immunity (turning): garlic
Size: 7'6"
Strength: 19
XP:  10850+16

_Princeling_
AC: -3
Move: 30"/36"
HD: 14+9
% in Lair: 10%
Treasure: Z
Dmg: 1-12+9
SA:
Blood drain: 3 pints
Charm: monster
Hold: animal
Summon: V
SD:
Weapon Plus: +2
Regenerate: 6
Immunity (magic): petrification
Immunity (turning): mirrors
Size: 8'
Strength: 21
XP:  13950+18

_Prince_
AC: -4
Move: 36"/42"
HD: 16+11
% in Lair: 5%
Treasure: Y,Z
Dmg: 2-16+11
SA:
Blood drain: 4 pints
Charm: nil
Hold: nil
Summon: VI
SD:
Weapon Plus: +3
Regenerate: 7
Immunity (magic): nil
Immunity (turning): see below
Size: 8'6"
Strength: 23
XP:  16850+20

_Arch-Prince_
AC: -5
Move: 42"/48"
HD: 18+13
% in Lair: 1%
Treasure: U
Dmg: 3-18+14
SA:
Blood drain: 5 pints
Charm: mass
Hold: monster
Summon: VII
SD:
Weapon Plus: +3
Regenerate: 8
Immunity (magic): polymorph
Immunity (turning): see below
Size: 9'
Strength: 25
XP:  24500+25

*Notes on Statistics Tables*

In frequency all greater vampires are very rare.  Unless commanded by some evil entity they are only ever encountered singly.  All have 1 attack per round for the damage shown; as normal this attack will drain 2 levels.  Irrespective of title a greater vampire can only produce, by draining, half-strength vampires as per MM1.  All are CE in alignment and possess 19 Intelligence.  They have neither magic resistance nor psionic ability.  They are turned as a "special" on the cleric undead matrix.

Blood Drain:  Any greater vampire can drink blood as described in the article.  In addition, a greater vampire has the ability to suck blood rapidly during combat, making this an effective attack form.  This bite attack can be used at the vampire's option in place of the hand attack during "surprise" situations; that is, when a creature is surprised by the vampire.  At other times the bite can only occur if the vampire has rolled a hand "to hit" value 5 places better than required.  The monster then gains an immediate "to hit" roll for the bite (with no Dex or shield considerations to the AC).  If this bite succeeds the vampire proceeds quickly to drain the opponent of blood.  For any one bite the actual amount taken (in pints) depends on the vampire's title and is the value shown.  Obviously in combat a vampire ignores any thoughts of blood-type preference.  The effects of this sudden loss in blood are different from those produced by the previously described gradual decrease (see Table 3).

Table 3: Effects of Rapid Blood Loss
% of Blood Lost / Effects on Str, Dex, Con / Effects on Movement
1-15 / nil / no charge possible
16-30 / -1 / fast trot max
31-45 / -3 / walk max
46-60 / -9 / can only stagger*
61-75 / -15 / can only crawl**
76+ / death /death

*Victim cannot attack or cast spells; may only defend
**Victim cannot attack, cast spells, or defend

For example, a human suffering 50% blood loss would lose 9 points each of Str, Dex, and Con, would not be able to attack by weapon or by spell, and could only move at a stagger.  OF course all these penalties woudl be extra to the damage and drain effects caused by the initital hand attack that gripped the human so as to facilitate the bite!

It is important to note that the decrease in ability points arises indirectly from the blood loss; they are not drained as such.  Thus it is possible for negative values to result and the victim to remain alive.  However, if and when Con falls below 3, the individual must make a "system shock" roll (based on original Constitution) or else die. If Con falls to zero or below another check is required; teh chance this time being 20%.  In any event an individual wiht negative Con value immediately becomes unconscious.  Lost ability points are regained with rest at the rate of 2 points per day for each affected characteristic.  Alternatively, a heal spell will restore values to their original number.

Any human/oid creature bitten by this "combat-drain" has a chance of becoming a vampire as described previously under "partial blood-drain".

Charm:  The powers seen in Table 2 are gained cumulatively; a princeling of vampires being able to charm mammal and monster.  They are in addition to the standard charm person attack.  Each is usable once per night and any effect is broken at dawn.  To employ, the vampire must make a 1 second somatic gesture; for other details see spells of same name.  As per DMG, a greater vampire can mentally communicate with, and control, its charmee(s).

Hold: These powers are gained cumlatively and each type can be used once per night, any effect being broken at dawn.  To employ, the vampire must speak the command to "stop"; it is not necessary that the target(s) hear or understand the vampire in order to be affected.  For other details see spells of same name.

Summon:  in addition to the summoning powers described in the MM1 a greater vampire can once per night, summon monsters of level according to title.  Such creatures will never be of good alignment and can be commanded mentally by the vampire.  See spell for other details.

Weapon Plus:  The magical weapon bonus needed to affect the vampire.

Regenerate:  The value given is the number of hit points per round.

Magical Immunities:  These are gained cumulatively and are in addition to those described in MM1.

Turning Immunities:  As a greater vampire gets older it becomes progressively more resistant to the standard methods of defense.  These immunities are gained cumulatively; a princeling being immmune to either garlic or mirrors. If presented, such items would wither or crack.  In addition, a prince of vampires has a certain resistance to clerical "turning", being unaffected by the actions of any evil cleric.  Likewise an arch-prince is additionally resistant to the turning power of any neutral cleric.  These very powerful undead are simply too evil to be swayed by other evil (or, for an arch prince, neutral) force.  This immunity also extends to certain uses of a LG holy symbol; if a greater vampire is immune to turning by a cleric of a particular alignment then it will also be immune to other characters of that alignmetn that try to keep it at bay by presenting a LG holy symbol!  Thus only good-aligned clerics have a chance of turning the most powerful greater vampires, and only good-aligned characters can keep one at bay by use of a LG symbol.

Originally appeared in Imagine Magazine #22 (1985).


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## Shade (Apr 4, 2008)

Daunting, eh?

I think this one could turn out to be alot of fun.  The "rapid blood drain", especially.


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## freyar (Apr 4, 2008)

Very daunting.  I couldn't even read all of this last night when I saw it! 

First thoughts:


> A greater vampire may, in one segment, change form to a wolf or bat. In the new form the vampire loses all special attacks but retains all defensive powers, as well as keeping AC and movement rates. In wolf-form the vampire also retains its strength and may employ a bite attack for the damage appropriate to title. Of course, this bite can neither suck blood, drain levels, nor inflict vampirism.
> 
> These shape-changed forms are much used by greater vampires to roam about the country side without discovery. Very often the monster deliberately kills creatures while in wolf-form so that other unexplained disappearances will be attributed to the "rogue wolf" and not the actions of a more deadly enemy!




This is weaker than the standard vampire's alternate form.  Should we just give it the usual alternate form (plus the humanoid version further down)?


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## Shade (Apr 17, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> This is weaker than the standard vampire's alternate form.  Should we just give it the usual alternate form (plus the humanoid version further down)?




Yeah, that sounds right.

If we preserve the damage bonus progression, Str modifiers would look like this:

Standard Vampire: +6
Lord: +8
Arch-lord: +10
Princeling: +14
Prince: +18
Arch-Prince: +24


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## freyar (Apr 17, 2008)

Sounds good to me.  These are going to get tough!


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## Shade (Apr 23, 2008)

It looks like fast healing and damage reduction should improve as well.

A standard vampire has damage reduction 10/magic and silver and fast healing 5.

So how about:

Lord: Damage reduction 10/magic and silver, fast healing 6
Arch-lord: Damage reduction 15/magic and silver, fast healing 7
Princeling: Damage reduction 15/magic and silver, fast healing 8
Prince: Damage reduction 20/magic and silver, fast healing 9
Arch-Prince: Damage reduction 20/magic and silver, fast healing 10


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## freyar (Apr 23, 2008)

Also sounds reasonable.  Is there anything else we can tabulate easily like that?


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## Shade (Apr 24, 2008)

I've started a Homebrews entry to try to keep track of this.  We'll probably want to eventually break them into individual templates, but this will give us a quick summary one click away.

Let's try tackling this in small chunks.



> A greater vampire may, in one segment, change form to a wolf or bat. In the new form the vampire loses all special attacks but retains all defensive powers, as well as keeping AC and movement rates. In wolf-form the vampire also retains its strength and may employ a bite attack for the damage appropriate to title. Of course, this bite can neither suck blood, drain levels, nor inflict vampirism.
> 
> These shape-changed forms are much used by greater vampires to roam about the country side without discovery. Very often the monster deliberately kills creatures while in wolf-form so that other unexplained disappearances will be attributed to the "rogue wolf" and not the actions of a more deadly enemy!




Here's the standard vampire's ability:

Alternate Form (Su): A vampire can assume the shape of a bat, dire bat, wolf, or dire wolf as a standard action. While in its alternate form, the vampire loses its natural slam attack and dominate ability, but it gains the natural weapons and extraordinary special attacks of its new form. It can remain in that form until it assumes another or until the next sunrise. (If the base creature is not terrestrial, this power might allow other forms.)

One possible source of difference...since it only took a "segment", we might make this a free action or swift action rather than the typical standard.



> A greater vampire is also capable, in one round, of changing form to that of any human or demi-human norm of desired age, sex, and appearance. Unlike the previous power the vampire's clothing and belongings remain as normal. Although the vampire's voice is also altered, the new facial appearance will always, in some subtle respect, resemble the vampire's own/ the type of similarity one can recognize after the fact has been pointed out... In the new state the vampire again loses all special attacks, but apart from AC and movement, retains its defensive powers. The vampire still has its own strength and can attack once per round for a base damage according to size plus the damage bonus due to strength.




Hmmm....it almost sounds like alter self as a supernatural ability, but with a lower bonus on Disguise checks to impersonate another.  Thoughts?


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## freyar (Apr 24, 2008)

I'd say go with the standard vampire's alternate form but maybe bump it to a swift action.

I also agree with alter self with a +6? bonus to disguise, limited to humanoids (rather than undead).


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## Shade (Apr 28, 2008)

How's this?

Alter Self (Su):  As a swift action, a greater vampire may assume the form of a humanoid as if using the alter self spell.  However, the greater vampire only gains a +6 bonus on Disguise checks (rather than the usual +10), since its assumed face always subtlely retains aspects of its own appearance.  The greater vampire retains its own physical ability scores in the assumed form.


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## freyar (Apr 28, 2008)

Looks good!



> When desired, and in any event when overtly stressed, the monster can exude a foul stench that will affect all creatures within a 3" radius as the stench of a ghast. Apart from holy water the stench will also spoil food and drink.




How about combining ghast stench with a black dragon's corrupt water?

Stench (Ex): The stink of death and corruption surrounding these creatures is overwhelming. Living creatures within 10 feet must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or be sickened for 1d6+4 minutes. A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same vampire’s stench for 24 hours. A delay poison or neutralize poison spell removes the effect from a sickened creature. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws. In addition, the stench spoils food and water, along with magical liquids (such as potions) that fail a DC X Will save.  This ability does not affect holy water.  The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## Shade (Apr 29, 2008)

Ooh...I like!  Nice work.    



> A greater vampire continually radiates fear that affects creatures as below (no saving throw).
> 12" radius: all normal and giant-sized animals become agitated.
> 6" radius: as above, plus untrained animals will attempt to flee
> 3" radius: as above, plus trained animals also attempt to flee
> ...




Modify this?

Unnatural Aura (Su): Animals, whether wild or domesticated, can sense the unnatural presence of a wraith at a distance of 30 feet. They will not willingly approach nearer than that and panic if forced to do so; they remain panicked as long as they are within that range.


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## freyar (Apr 29, 2008)

Hmmm, what about allowing characters a Handle Animal check to keep a trained animal from panicking to within a certain radius?  I'm also going to round all distances to the next 5 foot increment.

Unnatural Aura (Su): Animals, whether wild or domesticated, can sense the unnatural presence of a greater vampire at a distance of 15 feet. They will not willingly approach nearer than that and panic if forced to do so; they remain panicked as long as they are within that range.  A character may calm a panicked animal with a DC X Handle Animal check if the animal is trained. However, even a trained animal panics if brought within 10 feet.


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## Shade (Apr 29, 2008)

That seems reasonable.



> In human-kind the vampire is especially feared: any zero-level human that gazes upon the vampire's true face will be turned permanently insane (no save): 75% catatonia, 25% suicidal mania.




Hmmm...gaze attack or something else?



> Once per turn a greater vampire can breath forth a noxious vapor of cone dimensions 3" long, 1" high, and 2" base diameter. Creatures within this area are automatically infected with a random disease, and must also save versus poison or else be helpless with nausea for 1-4 rounds. The area of this breath attack remains highly infectious for a few days afterward.




How's this?

Infections Breath (Su):  Once per X, a greater vampire can breath a 30-foot cone of noxious vapor.  Creatures within the area must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or be inflicted with X and be nauseaed for 1d4 rounds.  The breath weapon lingers for 24 hours thereafter, and any creature entering its area must make a Fortitude save.  A creature who successfully saves is immune to the effects of this greater vampire's for 24 hours.  The save DC is Charisma-based.



> Once per round a greater vampire can: cause sleep as a spell (5 times per night), knock as the spell, hold portal as spell (which will remain held for as long as the vampire stays within 6" and for 2-5 rounds afterwards; such held portals can still be broken down or dispelled as normal).




SLAs:  At will--knock; 5/day--sleep (or deep slumber?).

The hold portal might need to be a unique SLA.


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## freyar (Apr 30, 2008)

I think I'd make the insanity bit a gaze attack that only affects humanoids of no more than 1HD.  Do you want to model it on the insanity spell and/or add a save?

Infectious breath looks good.  Do you want to use some unusual disease like mindfire or something more potent like demon fever?  Or make something up?

I say deep slumber.  I think hold portal as a normal SLA will work as long as the CL is high enough.  After all, the hold as described here is not any stronger than the spell, esp if we make it at will.


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## Shade (May 2, 2008)

I'm wondering if the insanity bit might be better worded like the form of madness ability of obyriths rather than a gaze attack.

Something like...

Madenning Countenance (Su): A humanoid within 60 feet with 1 Hit Die or less that views a greater vampire's true form must attempt a DC X Will save. Failure indicates the creature's mind is shattered, leaving it permanently insane (as the insanity spell). A creature that makes the save is immune to that particular greater vampire's maddening countenance for 24 hours. This is a mind-affecting ability. The save DC is Charisma-based.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Infectious breath looks good. Do you want to use some unusual disease like mindfire or something more potent like demon fever? Or make something up?






We could use mindfire as the default, and state that some greater vampires spread different diseases.


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## Shade (May 2, 2008)

I'm wondering if the insanity bit might be better worded like the form of madness ability of obyriths rather than a gaze attack.

Something like...

Madenning Countenance (Su): A humanoid within 60 feet with 1 Hit Die or less that views a greater vampire's true form must attempt a DC X Will save. Failure indicates the creature's mind is shattered, leaving it permanently insane (as the insanity spell). A creature that makes the save is immune to that particular greater vampire's maddening countenance for 24 hours. This is a mind-affecting ability. The save DC is Charisma-based.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Infectious breath looks good. Do you want to use some unusual disease like mindfire or something more potent like demon fever? Or make something up?




We could use mindfire as the default, and state that some greater vampires spread different diseases...

Infections Breath (Su): Once per minute(?), a greater vampire can breath a 30-foot cone of noxious vapor. Creatures within the area must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or be inflicted with mindfire (or another disease of the DM's choice) and be nauseaed for 1d4 rounds. The breath weapon lingers for 24 hours thereafter, and any creature entering its area must make a Fortitude save. A creature who successfully saves is immune to the effects of this greater vampire's infectious breath for 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## freyar (May 3, 2008)

Those both look good!  I also agree with once per minute.  



> In any form it has the abiltiy to "see" the life-form of creatures up to a distance of 12". Even 'elemental' lifeforces can be detected, as can the absence of life generated by other undead. Only animated (eg golems) and magicallly protected creatures cannot be so "seen"; thus the various forms of invisibility are useless unless combined with such powers as an amulet of proof vs. detection and location.
> 
> In addition, greater vampires also possess supernatural sense of smell as well as an excellent sense of hearing (treat as equivalent to an owl). From scent alone the vampire can recognize race, sex, etc, plus the presence of armor and other such factors. Even the presence of magic and its type can be picked up, and if provided with a fairly recent scent of a creature the vampire may even know alignment.




Want to go with blindsight/sense 15 ft or something more unusual to detect "lifeforce"?

Definitely needs scent (maybe even some kind of enhanced scent) and a big racial Listen bonus.  +8 like an owl or giant owl?


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## Shade (May 5, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Want to go with blindsight/sense 15 ft or something more unusual to detect "lifeforce"?




We can modify this:

Lifesense (Su): An illithocyte continually detects the presence of living creatures within 30 feet. This functions similarly to a detect undead spell, except that it detects living creatures instead of undead, and the illithocyte is never stunned if a living creature has more than twice its Hit Dice. Lifesense is always active.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Definitely needs scent (maybe even some kind of enhanced scent) and a big racial Listen bonus.  +8 like an owl or giant owl?




Well, the vampire template already grants +8 Listen.  Do we want to go higher for the greater vampire?


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## freyar (May 5, 2008)

I like lifesense!  As for the Listen bonus, I think we should stick with +8.  The text seemed to imply we should use the owl's bonus.

Thoughts on scent vs "greater scent"?

Should we try to tabulate turning resistances?


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## Shade (May 6, 2008)

Updated.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> I like lifesense! As for the Listen bonus, I think we should stick with +8. The text seemed to imply we should use the owl's bonus.




Fair enough.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Thoughts on scent vs "greater scent"?




I believe we gave a creature something similar recently, based off the shark's keen scent ability.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Should we try to tabulate turning resistances?




Sure.  



> Turning Immunities: As a greater vampire gets older it becomes progressively more resistant to the standard methods of defense. These immunities are gained cumulatively; a princeling being immmune to either garlic or mirrors. If presented, such items would wither or crack. In addition, a prince of vampires has a certain resistance to clerical "turning", being unaffected by the actions of any evil cleric. Likewise an arch-prince is additionally resistant to the turning power of any neutral cleric. These very powerful undead are simply too evil to be swayed by other evil (or, for an arch prince, neutral) force. This immunity also extends to certain uses of a LG holy symbol; if a greater vampire is immune to turning by a cleric of a particular alignment then it will also be immune to other characters of that alignmetn that try to keep it at bay by presenting a LG holy symbol! Thus only good-aligned clerics have a chance of turning the most powerful greater vampires, and only good-aligned characters can keep one at bay by use of a LG symbol.




This is actually two separate abilities:  one, a reduction in the vampire weaknesses, and the other, greater turn resistance.

Rather than separating neutral and evil clerics, I'd say that a prince cannot be commanded, and an arch-prince cannot be rebuked.


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## freyar (May 7, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> I believe we gave a creature something similar recently, based off the shark's keen scent ability.




Giving this a try:

Supernatural Scent (Su): A greater vampire can notice the presence of creatures within 180 feet.  This ability allows the vampire instantly to determine race, gender, and the presence of armor and weapons.  If the greater vampire concentrates for a round, it can detect magic auras by its supernatural scent (as the first round of the detect magic spell) and alignment auras (as the first round of detect chaos, evil, good, and law spells).



> This is actually two separate abilities:  one, a reduction in the vampire weaknesses, and the other, greater turn resistance.
> 
> Rather than separating neutral and evil clerics, I'd say that a prince cannot be commanded, and an arch-prince cannot be rebuked.




Agreed.  Actually, re-reading this, I'm not sure these should get more than the usual +4 turn resistance of a vampire, based on the original text.  OTOH, they sure seem like they should.  How about we do this (the table is cumulative)?

Lord: only appropriately aligned characters may hold at bay with holy symbol?
Arch-lord: turning resistance +6 
Princeling: immune to garlic and/or mirrors
Prince: immune to commanding
Arch-Prince: immune to rebuking


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## Shade (May 7, 2008)

That all looks good, except I'm not sure I understand this:



> Lord: only appropriately aligned characters may hold at bay with holy symbol?




Are you referring to this?

"Repelling a Vampire: Vampires cannot tolerate the strong odor of garlic and will not enter an area laced with it. Similarly, they recoil from a mirror or a *strongly presented holy symbol*. These things don’t harm the vampire—they merely keep it at bay. A recoiling vampire must stay at least 5 feet away from a creature holding the mirror or holy symbol and cannot touch or make melee attacks against the creature holding the item for the rest of the encounter. Holding a vampire at bay takes a standard action."


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## freyar (May 7, 2008)

Yes, that's what I'm referring to.  There was that bit in the greater vampire entry as follows:


> This immunity also extends to certain uses of a LG holy symbol; if a greater vampire is immune to turning by a cleric of a particular alignment then it will also be immune to other characters of that alignmetn that try to keep it at bay by presenting a LG holy symbol! Thus only good-aligned clerics have a chance of turning the most powerful greater vampires, and only good-aligned characters can keep one at bay by use of a LG symbol.


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## Shade (May 7, 2008)

Hmmm...based on that quoted text, it actually sounds like only the prince and arch-prince would have the holy symbol alignment requirement.

How's this?

Reduced Vampire Weaknesses:  Princelings and older greater vampires lose the traditional vulnerability to garlic and mirrors.  In fact, any mirror presented to such a greater vampire immediately cracks and becomes useless.  Princes do not recoil from holy symbols presented by evil characters, and arch-princes only recoil from holy symbols presented by good-aligned characters.

Improved Turn Resistance (Ex):  An arch-lord or older greater vampire has +6 turn resistance (rather than the usual +4).  Additionally, a prince cannot be commanded (but can still be rebuked or turned), while an arch-prince cannot be rebuked (but can still be turned).


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## freyar (May 7, 2008)

That works!

Anything left before we try the blood drain?  I think we're both shying away from that one.


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## Shade (May 8, 2008)

We can stall blood drain a bit longer!  



> Charm: The powers seen in Table 2 are gained cumulatively; a princeling of vampires being able to charm mammal and monster. They are in addition to the standard charm person attack. Each is usable once per night and any effect is broken at dawn. To employ, the vampire must make a 1 second somatic gesture; for other details see spells of same name. As per DMG, a greater vampire can mentally communicate with, and control, its charmee(s).
> 
> Lord
> Charm: mammal
> ...






> Hold: These powers are gained cumlatively and each type can be used once per night, any effect being broken at dawn. To employ, the vampire must speak the command to "stop"; it is not necessary that the target(s) hear or understand the vampire in order to be affected. For other details see spells of same name.
> 
> Lord
> Hold: Person
> ...






> Summon: in addition to the summoning powers described in the MM1 a greater vampire can once per night, summon monsters of level according to title. Such creatures will never be of good alignment and can be commanded mentally by the vampire. See spell for other details.
> 
> Lord
> Summon: III
> ...






> Magical Immunities: These are gained cumulatively and are in addition to those described in MM1.
> 
> Lord
> Immunity (magic): cold
> ...


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## freyar (May 8, 2008)

Ok, the charm effects are a little tricky, since the ordinary vampire essentially has dominate person as an at-will SLA.  I propose:
Lord: Dominate Animal 
Arch-Lord: nil
Princeling: Mass charm monster
Prince: nil
Arch-Prince: Dominate Monster
These should probably be standard action Su abilities due to the "night-long" duration.  For simplicity, we should make them 1/day and 1 day duration, you think?

For the holds, we could just copy from the above or throw in the mass holds, too, if you want. The table will look different depending, of course.  I kind of like the idea of a mass hold. 

For the summons, just a 1/day SLA of the appropriate summon monster?

Immunities should maybe be something like cold, nil, petrification, nil, polymorph subschool?  Or should it be something like transmutation spells?  Not quite sure how to handle that given all the polymorph errata.


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## Shade (May 8, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Ok, the charm effects are a little tricky, since the ordinary vampire essentially has dominate person as an at-will SLA.  I propose:
> Lord: Dominate Animal
> Arch-Lord: nil
> Princeling: Mass charm monster
> ...




Sounds good.  I could see a use for these when the vampire doesn't want to focus its energies on complete domination.

I think for the arch-prince, we should simply improve its dominating gaze to affect all creatures rather than just humanoids.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> For the holds, we could just copy from the above or throw in the mass holds, too, if you want. The table will look different depending, of course.  I kind of like the idea of a mass hold.




Yeah, let's go with mass hold.    



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> For the summons, just a 1/day SLA of the appropriate summon monster?




That will probably suffice.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Immunities should maybe be something like cold, nil, petrification, nil, polymorph subschool?  Or should it be something like transmutation spells?  Not quite sure how to handle that given all the polymorph errata.




I think that you can still just say immunity to polymorph and leave it at that.


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## freyar (May 10, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Sounds good.  I could see a use for these when the vampire doesn't want to focus its energies on complete domination.
> 
> I think for the arch-prince, we should simply improve its dominating gaze to affect all creatures rather than just humanoids.




Funny, thought I'd answered this one.  I'm not sure about changing the gaze; that would be a very different mechanic for the arch-prince than the others.

I like the other suggestions, and I'll tabulate them over the weekend.


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## Shade (May 12, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Funny, thought I'd answered this one.  I'm not sure about changing the gaze; that would be a very different mechanic for the arch-prince than the others.




I was just thinking of changing the standard vampire's dominate like so...

Dominate (Su): A vampire can crush an opponent’s will just by looking onto his or her eyes. This is similar to a gaze attack, except that the vampire must use a standard action, and those merely looking at it are not affected. Anyone the vampire targets must succeed on a Will save or fall instantly under the vampire’s influence as though by a dominate *person * spell (caster level 12th). The ability has a range of 30 feet.

Change person to monster.   Maybe increase caster level.   Something like this:

Greater Dominate (Su): An arch-prince can crush an opponent’s will just by looking onto his or her eyes. This is similar to a gaze attack, except that the vampire must use a standard action, and those merely looking at it are not affected. Anyone the vampire targets must succeed on a Will save or fall instantly under the vampire’s influence as though by a dominate *monster* spell (caster level 20th). The ability has a range of 30 feet.


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## freyar (May 12, 2008)

I see what you're saying, but it doesn't really fit with the other additions, which are more like standard SLAs.  How about adding SLAs as follows (forgetting the funny durations, maybe)?

Add the following spell-like abilities (1/day each), cumulative.
Lord: Charm animal, Hold person, Summon monster III
Arch-Lord: Dominate animal, Hold animal, Summon monster IV
Princeling: Charm monster, Hold monster, Summon monster V
Prince: Mass charm monster, Mass hold person, Summon monster VI
Arch-Prince: Mass hold monster, Summon monster VII

And the immunities as discussed before.  Then we can use your Greater Dominate gaze.


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## Shade (May 12, 2008)

It's time to get our fangs dirty!  



> _Lord_
> Blood drain: 1 pint
> 
> _Arch-Lord_
> ...




Whew!

My initial thoughts are:

1-15 = No ability drain; cannot run
16-30 = 1 point of Str, Dex, and Con drain; fatigued
31-45 = 3 points of Str, Dex, and Con drain; exhausted
46-60 = 9 points of Str, Dex, and Con drain; staggered
61-75 = 15 points of Str, Dex, and Con drain; nauseated
76+ = dead


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## freyar (May 12, 2008)

Yeah, whew! says it all!

I'm not sure that this % blood drained is really the best mechanic, but we can think about that.  First off, though, the ability damage is regained with rest, so it's damage and not drain.  Next, when should the vamps be able to do this?  As if using sneak attack?


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## Shade (May 14, 2008)

Agreed.   A couple ideas:

1.)  Tie the extra conditions like exhausted to the amount of ability damage dealt, rather than just dealing X amount of ability damage.  Each step up of greater vampire could deal an additional point of ability damage, say 1d4 for lord, 1d4+1 for arch-lord, 1d4+2 for princeling, and so forth.

2.)  Tie the extra conditions to the number of rounds the vampire maintains the grapple and chooses to drain blood.

I think I'd prefer #1.


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## freyar (May 14, 2008)

I like idea #1 also.  How about:
Ability Damage    Condition
3 pts                    cannot run
4 pts                    fatigued
5 pts                    exhausted
6 pts                    staggered
7 pts                    nauseated
8 pts                    dead

What kind of saves to we want to allow?


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## Shade (May 16, 2008)

I'm not a fan of cannot run, since it is already part of other conditions.  Likewise, I'm not a fan of "dead", since the Con damage should take care of that for many creatures anyway.

Fort saves to avoid special conditions?

Here's the standard vampire blood drain ability:

Blood Drain (Ex): A vampire can suck blood from a living victim with its fangs by making a successful grapple check. If it pins the foe, it drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution drain each round the pin is maintained. On each such successful attack, the vampire gains 5 temporary hit points.

Shall we follow this blueprint, but replace the 1d4 Con drain with the ability damage to all physical scores?   Something like...

Rapid Blood Drain (Ex): A greater vampire can rapidly suck blood from a living victim with its fangs by making a successful grapple check. If it pins the foe, it drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution damage each round the pin is maintained. On each such successful attack, the greater vampire gains 5 temporary hit points.

This rapid blood drain may cause additional effects.  The victim is allowed a Fortitude save against these additional effects.  <list additional effects and trigger conditions>


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## freyar (May 16, 2008)

Did we want to increase the number of points of damage by "level" of greater vampire?  

Or, different idea: what if, rather than doing more damage, a higher level of greater vampire has a nastier extra effect?  So 
Lord: ability damage only (or maybe plus Fort save or dazed for X rounds)
Arch-lord: ability damage plus Fort save or fatigued for X rounds
Princeling: ability damage plus Fort save or exhausted for X rounds
Prince: ability damage plus Fort save or staggered for X rounds
Arch-Prince: ability damage plus Fort save or nauseated for X rounds .
It's not quite the same, but I think it catches the flavor in a relatively simpler way.

BTW, I keep meaning to look up the AB dread vampire for comparison but forgetting...


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## Shade (May 16, 2008)

I like that solution.  Simple, yet elegant.  

Also, I'm a bit concerned about the greaters dealing ability damage, while the standard vampire gets ability drain (even if it affects less ability scores).  See any issues with improving it to drain?


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## freyar (May 16, 2008)

Nope, no issue with bumping to drain.  What do you think about adding dazed for the Lord?  And should X be the same for all 5?  Maybe 1d6 rounds?


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## Shade (May 16, 2008)

Hmmm...fatigued and exhausted aren't usually limited to a duration, so I'd rather not limit them here.

1d6 rounds could suffice for the rest, though.


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## freyar (May 16, 2008)

In that case, should we make the conditions cumulative?  That is, someone blood-drained by an arch-prince must make a Fort save or be exhausted and nauseated for 1d6?


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## Shade (May 16, 2008)

That's probably a good idea.


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## freyar (May 16, 2008)

Let's give it a try, then.

Rapid Blood Drain (Ex): A greater vampire can rapidly suck blood from a living victim with its fangs by making a successful grapple check. If it pins the foe, it drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution drain each round the pin is maintained. On each such successful attack, the greater vampire gains 5 temporary hit points.

This rapid blood drain may cause additional effects. The victim is allowed a Fortitude save against these additional effects (the save DC is Charisma-based).  These effects are cumulative for the greater types of vampires, so a victim that fails a save against an arch-prince's rapid blood drain would be both exhausted and nauseated.

Lord: dazed for 1 round
Arch-lord: fatigued
Princeling: exhausted
Prince: staggered for 1d6 rounds
Arch-Prince: nauseated for 1d6 rounds .


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## Shade (May 19, 2008)

Slight revision...

Rapid Blood Drain (Ex): A greater vampire can rapidly suck blood from a living victim with its fangs by making a successful grapple check. If it pins the foe, it drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution drain each round the pin is maintained. On each such successful attack, the greater vampire gains 5 temporary hit points.

This rapid blood drain may cause additional effects. The victim is allowed a Fortitude save against these additional effects (the save DC is Charisma-based). These effects are cumulative and stack (where possible) for the greater types of vampires.  For example, a victim that fails a save against an arch-prince's rapid blood drain would be dazed, exhausted staggered, and nauseated (but not fatigued, since exhausted is a greater form of fatigue).

Lord: dazed for 1 round
Arch-lord: fatigued
Princeling: exhausted
Prince: staggered for 1d6 rounds
Arch-Prince: nauseated for 1d6 rounds


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## freyar (May 20, 2008)

Looks good, but doesn't nauseated cover staggered, too?


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## demiurge1138 (May 20, 2008)

Staggered is one move or standard action. Nauseated is one move only.


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## Shade (May 20, 2008)

Since the durations are variable for the staggered and nauseated, it is also possible to roll say 5 rounds on staggered and 2 rounds on nauseated, so the staggered condition would still be worth tracking.


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## freyar (May 20, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Since the durations are variable for the staggered and nauseated, it is also possible to roll say 5 rounds on staggered and 2 rounds on nauseated, so the staggered condition would still be worth tracking.



 Ok, I wondered if that was where you were going.  I'd say this looks pretty good.

Anything else for these?  We should probably go over them and make sure they have all the vampire's abilities, as well, just to make sure.


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## Shade (May 20, 2008)

> It is suggested that a normal vampire ascends to "greater" status after 999 years of unlife, with promotion to the next level after a similar period and so on. Except where noted otherwise a greater vampire should be treated as per MM1.




I get the impression that this is more like the evolved undead template, so it would only be applied a creature that already has the vampire template (and thus not need to repeat the vampire's abilities).

Although we currently have it lumped together as a single "greater vampire" template, I think it would be best to now break it up into the five unique templates.

Probably something like...

"Vampire lord" is an acquired template that can be added to any vampire that has existed for 999 years of unlife (referred to hereafter as the base creature). A vampire lord uses all the base creature's statistics and abilities except as noted here. This template does not alter the creature's type.

"Vampire arch-lord" is an acquired template that can be added to any vampire lord that has existed in that state for 999 years of unlife (referred to hereafter as the base creature). A vampire lord uses all the base creature's statistics and abilities except as noted here. This template does not alter the creature's type.

...and so on...

Too complicated?


----------



## freyar (May 21, 2008)

That's all reasonable enough.  Let's see how it would look like that.


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## Shade (May 21, 2008)

Updated.

Before we break them into individual templates, let's fill in a few blanks in the special abilities.

Caster level equal to Hit Dice for SLAs?

Check DC is Charisma-based for Unnatural Aura?


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## freyar (May 21, 2008)

Yes and yes.  

Just thought of something: since the base creature is now a vampire (or lower type of greater vampire), the ability score boosts need to be retabulated (after all, the arch-lord is only supposed to be Str +2 compared to the lord, not +10).


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## Shade (May 21, 2008)

Whew!   I tried to break them into 5 templates in the original thread, but it was too many characters!

Here are the five templates:

Lord
Arch-Lord
Princeling
Prince
Arch-Prince


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## freyar (May 21, 2008)

These look pretty good, but I think we need to delete some of the special abilities and qualities.  For example, the SLAs are all the same, so only the Lord needs them.  Same with Lifesense, Alternate Form, Unnatural Aura, I think.


----------



## Shade (May 21, 2008)

Good point!

I updated them.


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## freyar (May 21, 2008)

Looking pretty good.  I just realized that we need to figure out the CR increases for these (compared to the usual vamp).  Also, don't remember if we talked about it before, but do we want to give a minor Cha bump at each stage (maybe +2 each time) to improve the DCs?

Suggested CR bumps:
Lord +2
Arch-Lord +1 (relative to Lord, of course)
Princeling +1
Prince +1
Arch-Prince +1


----------



## Shade (May 22, 2008)

Looks good.  Anything else before we start the sample vampires?


----------



## freyar (May 22, 2008)

Not that I can think of, unless we want to include some HD advancement at each step or something.  Maybe we should just state that a vampire usually gains character levels as it ages, or something.

For the samples, do you want to start with one of the MM sample vamps (are we allowed to do that?) and just keep advancing it through the templates?  It'd be kind of neat to see how a vampire "grows" through these (well, adding some character levels along the way, too, I guess).


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## Shade (May 22, 2008)

Let's skip the HD advancement, but I could definitely see gaining class levels.

In fact, do we want to change any of this from the bottom of the standard vampire template?

Environment: Any, usually same as base creature.
Organization: Solitary, pair, gang (3–5), or troupe (1–2 plus 2–5 vampire spawn).
Treasure: Double standard.
Advancement: By character class.
Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature +8.

I'm thinking that treasure will probably be larger after that amount of time...maybe triple standard by prince level?

LA may change as the templates progress.

Org could probably change, too, as they probably attract larger groups of followers as they age.


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## freyar (May 22, 2008)

LA probably goes up a couple each time, with the biggest jump at vampire -> vampire lord.  I'll have to get Savage Species one of these days, so I'll let you calculate that.

Let's bump to triple standard by princeling.  They've been around a while by then anyway.

Organization should definitely evolve.  I'd expect (speaking in generalities) that they'd get more and more jealous of their power as time goes on, so there won't be so many of each kind.  Here's a table of my suggestions.

Lord: Solitary, pair, gang (3–5), or troupe (1–2 plus 2–5 vampires and/or vampire spawn)
Arch-Lord: Solitary, pair, gang (1-2 plus 1-2 vampire lords), or troupe (1-2 plus 2-3 vampire lords plus 4-10 vampires and vampire spawn)
Princeling: Solitary, gang (1 plus 2-4 vampire lords or arch-lords), or troupe (1 plus 2-4 vampire lords or arch-lords plus 6-10 vampires)
Prince: Solitary, gang (1 plus 1-3 vampire princelings), or troupe (1 plus 2-4 vampire princelings plus 4-8 vampire lords or arch-lords plus 10-16 vampires)
Arch-Prince: Solitary, gang (1 plus 2-4 vampire princelings or princes), or troupe (1 plus 3-6 vampire princelings or princes plus 8-12 vampire lords or arch-lords plus 10-30 vampires)


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## Shade (May 22, 2008)

Updated all five templates.

Are we ready to start the sample vamps?


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## freyar (May 23, 2008)

Think so.  Let's start with the 5th level human fighter vampire sample from the MM and just advance it through the templates.  Maybe add 2 or 3 levels of fighter each time?  That's not a lot in 999 years, but I don't want to add epic on top of this.


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## Shade (May 23, 2008)

Here's the base MM vampire after adding two levels of fighter...

Vampire, 7th-Level Human Fighter
Medium Undead (Augmented Humanoid)
Hit Dice: 7d12 (45 hp)
Initiative: +7
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
AC: 23 (+3 Dex, +6 natural, +4 masterwork chain shirt), touch 13, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+13
Attack: Slam +13 melee (1d6+9 plus energy drain) or +1 spiked chain +15 melee (2d4+12) or masterwork shortbow +11 ranged (1d6/x3)
Full Attack: Slam +13 melee (1d6+9 plus energy drain) or +1 spiked chain +15 melee (2d4+12) or masterwork shortbow +11 ranged (1d6/x3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. with spiked chain)
Special Attacks: Blood drain, children of the night, create spawn, dominate, energy drain, 
Special Qualities: Alternate form, damage reduction 10/silver and magic, darkvision 60 ft., fast healing 5, gaseous form, resistance to cold 10 and electricity 10, spider climb, undead traits, vampire weaknesses
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +7, Will +5
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 17, Con -, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 12
Skills: Bluff +9, Climb +12, Hide +10, Listen +17, Move Silently +10, Ride +12, Search +9, Sense Motive +11, Spot +17
Feats: Alertness (B), Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes (B), Dodge (B), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain), Improved Initiative (B), Lightning Reflexes (B), Mobility, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (spiked chain), Weapon Specialization (spiked chain), 1 more fighter bonus feat, 1 more feat
Environment: Temperate plains
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 9
Treasure: Double standard
Alignment: Always evil (any)
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +8

And now adding the vampire lord template...

Vampire Lord, 7th-Level Human Fighter
Medium Undead (Augmented Humanoid)
Hit Dice: 7d12 (45 hp)
Initiative: +7
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
AC: 23 (+3 Dex, +6 natural, +4 masterwork chain shirt), touch 13, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+14
Attack: Slam +14 melee (1d6+10 plus energy drain) or +1 spiked chain +16 melee (2d4+13) or masterwork shortbow +11 ranged (1d6/x3)
Full Attack: Slam +14 melee (1d6+10 plus energy drain) or +1 spiked chain +16 melee (2d4+13) or masterwork shortbow +11 ranged (1d6/x3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. with spiked chain)
Special Attacks: Blood drain, children of the night, create spawn, dominate, energy drain, infectious breath, maddening countenance, rapid blood drain, spell-like abilities, stench
Special Qualities: Alternate form, damage reduction 10/silver and magic, darkvision 60 ft., fast healing 6, gaseous form, lifesense, resistance to cold 10 and electricity 10, spider climb, supernatural scent, undead traits, unnatural aura, vampire weaknesses
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +7, Will +5
Abilities: Str 24, Dex 17, Con -, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 14
Skills: Bluff +10, Climb +13, Hide +10, Listen +17, Move Silently +10, Ride +12, Search +9, Sense Motive +11, Spot +17
Feats: Alertness (B), Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes (B), Dodge (B), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain), Improved Initiative (B), Lightning Reflexes (B), Mobility, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (spiked chain), Weapon Specialization (spiked chain), 1 more fighter bonus feat, 1 more feat
Environment: Temperate plains
Organization: Solitary, pair, gang (3–5), or troupe (1–2 plus 2–5 vampires and/or vampire spawn)
Challenge Rating: 11
Treasure: Double standard
Alignment: Always evil (any)
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +11

Alternate Form (Su): A greater vampire can assume the shape of a bat, dire bat, wolf, or dire wolf as a swift action. While in its alternate form, the vampire loses its natural slam attack and dominate ability, but it gains the natural weapons and extraordinary special attacks of its new form. It can remain in that form until it assumes another or until the next sunrise. (If the base creature is not terrestrial, this power might allow other forms.)

Infections Breath (Su): Once per minute, a greater vampire can breath a 30-foot cone of noxious vapor. Creatures within the area must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or be inflicted with mindfire (or another disease of the DM's choice) and be nauseated for 1d4 rounds. The breath weapon lingers for 24 hours thereafter, and any creature entering its area must make a Fortitude save. A creature who successfully saves is immune to the effects of this greater vampire's infectious breath for 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Lifesense (Su): A greater vampire continually detects the presence of living creatures within 15 feet. This functions similarly to a detect undead spell, except that it detects living creatures instead of undead, and the greater vampire is never stunned if a living creature has more than twice its Hit Dice. Lifesense is always active.

Madenning Countenance (Su): A humanoid within 60 feet with 1 Hit Die or less that views a greater vampire's true form must attempt a DC 15 Will save. Failure indicates the creature's mind is shattered, leaving it permanently insane (as the insanity spell). A creature that makes the save is immune to that particular greater vampire's maddening countenance for 24 hours. This is a mind-affecting ability. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Rapid Blood Drain (Ex): A greater vampire can rapidly suck blood from a living victim with its fangs by making a successful grapple check. If it pins the foe, it drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution drain each round the pin is maintained. On each such successful attack, the greater vampire gains 5 temporary hit points.

Additionally, the victim must make a Fortitude save or be dazed for 1 round. The save DC is Charisma-based. 

Spell-Like Abilities: At will--hold portal, knock; 5/day--deep slumber. Caster level 7th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Stench (Ex): The stink of death and corruption surrounding these creatures is overwhelming. Living creatures within 10 feet must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or be sickened for 1d6+4 minutes. A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same vampire’s stench for 24 hours. A delay poison or neutralize poison spell removes the effect from a sickened creature. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws. In addition, the stench spoils food and water, along with magical liquids (such as potions) that fail a 15 Will save. This ability does not affect holy water. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Supernatural Scent (Su): A greater vampire can notice the presence of creatures within 180 feet. This ability allows the vampire instantly to determine race, gender, and the presence of armor and weapons. If the greater vampire concentrates for a round, it can detect magic auras with its supernatural scent (as the first round of the detect magic spell) and alignment auras (as the first round of detect chaos, evil, good, and law spells).

Unnatural Aura (Su): Animals, whether wild or domesticated, can sense the unnatural presence of a greater vampire at a distance of 15 feet. They will not willingly approach nearer than that and panic if forced to do so; they remain panicked as long as they are within that range. A character may calm a panicked animal with a DC 15 Handle Animal check if the animal is trained. However, even a trained animal panics if brought within 10 feet. The check DC is Charisma-based.


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## Shade (May 23, 2008)

Also, I believe we discussed this at one point, but we probably ought to improve Cha by +2 for each template since they have so many Cha-based special abilities.


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## freyar (May 23, 2008)

Yeah, we did mention Cha at some point above, but I don't think we did that.  I agree completely.

Sample looks good sofar, I think.


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## Shade (May 23, 2008)

Updated all the templates to include the +2 Cha bump, and updated the sample guy above for the additional Cha.

I think all we need is 1 more fighter bonus feat and 1 more general feat, and any changes to gear we wish to make. I'd recommend adding a +1 bonus or its equivalency to its spiked chain, chain shirt, and bow with each new template.


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## freyar (May 23, 2008)

Should the (B) for bonus be on Weapon Spec rather than Lightning Ref?

Spring Attack (B) and Ability Focus (Infectious Breath)?

Let's go +1 bow, +1 shock spiked chain, cloak of resistance +1 (rather than improving the chain, as it costs the same amount).


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## Shade (May 23, 2008)

Lightning Reflexes is a bonus feat granted by the standard vampire template.   In fact, it looks like they only denoted bonus feats granted by the template, not the fighter class, so I suppose we can follow their lead.

Let's not go with Ability Focus (Infectious Breath), assuming that the template was acquired after the class levels (and thus after the time to take a feat).   Too bad he's not smart enough to take Combat Expertise.  Maybe we can raise Int with the next sample, and take it, paving the way for Whirlwind Attack down the road?   

Can Power Attack be used with a spiked chain?

Good suggestion on the cloak.  When you say "rather than the chain", I assume you mean the chain shirt rather than the spiked chain?


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## freyar (May 23, 2008)

Ok, I think I was just forgetting about the vampire bonus feats.

Sounds fine on not using AF.  Yes, I'd like to raise Int for Whirlwind later.  In any case, I think Power Attack can be used with any melee weapon.  For the last feat, I'd think either Point Blank Shot or Imp Unarmed Strike to open up some other options later (do you qualify as having IUS if you already have a natural attack?).

Yeah, I meant rather than the chain shirt.


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## Shade (May 27, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Sounds fine on not using AF.  Yes, I'd like to raise Int for Whirlwind later.  In any case, I think Power Attack can be used with any melee weapon.  For the last feat, I'd think either Point Blank Shot or Imp Unarmed Strike to open up some other options later (do you qualify as having IUS if you already have a natural attack?).




Here's where my Power Attack confusion comes from:
"You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies. (Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon.)"

So I suppose you just can't use Power Attack with the offhand attack if using the spiked chain as a double weapon.

I do believe you still need Improved Unarmed Strike to qualify for other feats in that chain.


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## freyar (May 27, 2008)

Ah, I see what you're saying about PA.  It must just be there (1) as a prereq and (2) for the first side.  

Ok, do you want to choose PBS or IUS for the last feat?  Depends on which feat chain we might want to go down, I guess.  I'm fine with either, since we don't get to play much with either of those feat chains.


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## Shade (May 27, 2008)

Let's go IUS.  Somehow, "vampire" and "archer" just sound wrong together.


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## freyar (May 28, 2008)

True enough.  So is that it for the lord?


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## Shade (May 28, 2008)

Updated.

Check the sample guy out, and if he looks OK, we can slap on the next template.


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## freyar (May 28, 2008)

I think it looks good.  For the next one, do you want to jump to 10th level or just 9th?  And we'll put the stat boost into Int for the feat prereqs.


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## Shade (May 28, 2008)

Let's just try 9th...

Vampire Arch-Lord, 9th-Level Human Fighter
Medium Undead (Augmented Humanoid)
Hit Dice: 9d12 (58 hp)
Initiative: +7
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 23 (+3 Dex, +6 natural, +4 masterwork chain shirt), touch 13, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+17
Attack: Slam +17 melee (1d6+12 plus energy drain) or +2 spiked chain +20 melee (2d4+16) or +2 shortbow +15 ranged (1d6+2/x3)
Full Attack: Slam +17 melee (1d6+12 plus energy drain) or +2 spiked chain +20/+15 melee (2d4+16) or +2 shortbow +16/+11 ranged (1d6+2/x3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. with spiked chain)
Special Attacks: Blood drain, children of the night, create spawn, dominate, energy drain, infectious breath, maddening countenance, rapid blood drain, spell-like abilities, stench
Special Qualities: Alternate form, damage reduction 15/silver and magic, darkvision 60 ft., fast healing 7, gaseous form, lifesense, resistance to cold 10 and electricity 10, spider climb, supernatural scent, +6 turn resistance, undead traits, unnatural aura, vampire weaknesses
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +6
Abilities: Str 26, Dex 17, Con -, Int 13, Wis 16, Cha 16
Skills: Bluff +11, Climb +14, Hide +10, Listen +17, Move Silently +10, Ride +12, Search +9, Sense Motive +11, Spot +17, 6 more
Feats: Alertness (B), Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes (B), Dodge (B), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain), Improved Initiative (B), Improved Unarmed Strike, Lightning Reflexes (B), Mobility, Power Attack, Spring Attack (B), Weapon Focus (spiked chain), Weapon Specialization (spiked chain), 1 general and 1 fighter bonus feat
Environment: Temperate plains
Organization: Solitary, pair, gang (1-2 plus 1-2 vampire lords), or troupe (1-2 plus 2-3 vampire lords plus 4-10 vampires and vampire spawn)
Challenge Rating: 14
Treasure: Double standard (including cloak of resistance +1, +1 shortbow, and +1 spiked chain)
Alignment: Always evil (any)
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +13

Alternate Form (Su): A greater vampire can assume the shape of a bat, dire bat, wolf, or dire wolf as a swift action. While in its alternate form, the vampire loses its natural slam attack and dominate ability, but it gains the natural weapons and extraordinary special attacks of its new form. It can remain in that form until it assumes another or until the next sunrise. (If the base creature is not terrestrial, this power might allow other forms.)

Infections Breath (Su): Once per minute, a greater vampire can breath a 30-foot cone of noxious vapor. Creatures within the area must succeed on a DC 17 Fortitude save or be inflicted with mindfire (or another disease of the DM's choice) and be nauseated for 1d4 rounds. The breath weapon lingers for 24 hours thereafter, and any creature entering its area must make a Fortitude save. A creature who successfully saves is immune to the effects of this greater vampire's infectious breath for 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Lifesense (Su): A greater vampire continually detects the presence of living creatures within 15 feet. This functions similarly to a detect undead spell, except that it detects living creatures instead of undead, and the greater vampire is never stunned if a living creature has more than twice its Hit Dice. Lifesense is always active.

Madenning Countenance (Su): A humanoid within 60 feet with 1 Hit Die or less that views a greater vampire's true form must attempt a DC 17 Will save. Failure indicates the creature's mind is shattered, leaving it permanently insane (as the insanity spell). A creature that makes the save is immune to that particular greater vampire's maddening countenance for 24 hours. This is a mind-affecting ability. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Rapid Blood Drain (Ex): A greater vampire can rapidly suck blood from a living victim with its fangs by making a successful grapple check. If it pins the foe, it drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution drain each round the pin is maintained. On each such successful attack, the greater vampire gains 5 temporary hit points.

Additionally, the victim must make a DC 17 Fortitude save or become fatigued, and make a second DC 17 Fortitude save or be dazed for 1 round. The save DCs are Charisma-based. 

Spell-Like Abilities: At will--hold portal, knock; 5/day--deep slumber (DC 16). Caster level 9th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Stench (Ex): The stink of death and corruption surrounding these creatures is overwhelming. Living creatures within 10 feet must succeed on a DC 17 Fortitude save or be sickened for 1d6+4 minutes. A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same vampire’s stench for 24 hours. A delay poison or neutralize poison spell removes the effect from a sickened creature. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws. In addition, the stench spoils food and water, along with magical liquids (such as potions) that fail a 17 Will save. This ability does not affect holy water. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Supernatural Scent (Su): A greater vampire can notice the presence of creatures within 180 feet. This ability allows the vampire instantly to determine race, gender, and the presence of armor and weapons. If the greater vampire concentrates for a round, it can detect magic auras with its supernatural scent (as the first round of the detect magic spell) and alignment auras (as the first round of detect chaos, evil, good, and law spells).

Unnatural Aura (Su): Animals, whether wild or domesticated, can sense the unnatural presence of a greater vampire at a distance of 15 feet. They will not willingly approach nearer than that and panic if forced to do so; they remain panicked as long as they are within that range. A character may calm a panicked animal with a DC 17 Handle Animal check if the animal is trained. However, even a trained animal panics if brought within 10 feet. The check DC is Charisma-based.


...I think all that's left are two feats and 6 skills.  Combat Expertise and Whirlwind Attack?


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## freyar (May 29, 2008)

Those feats sound good enough to me.  2 ranks each in Bluff, Sense Motive, and Move Silently?  Or swap in Hide for Sense Motive?


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## Shade (May 29, 2008)

Since it gained those skills by progressing as a fighter, it will have to sink 2 ranks for each 1 in the skills you listed (which is fine).  Alternatively, we can put the 6 ranks into the fighter skills.


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## freyar (May 29, 2008)

Oh, right, oops.  Always forget the fighter class skill list.  Let's go with 6 in Jump, actually.


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## Shade (May 29, 2008)

Updated.

Look good?


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## freyar (May 30, 2008)

Looks ok!  11th or 12th level for the next one?


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## Shade (May 30, 2008)

Sample Vampire Princeling

Vampire Princeling, 11th-Level Human Fighter
Medium Undead (Augmented Humanoid)
Hit Dice: 11d12 (71 hp)
Initiative: +7
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 23 (+3 Dex, +6 natural, +4 masterwork chain shirt), touch 13, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +11/+19
Attack: Slam +21 melee (1d6+10 plus energy drain) or +3 spiked chain +25 melee (2d4+20) or +3 shortbow +17 ranged (1d6+3/x3)
Full Attack: Slam +21 melee (1d6+10 plus energy drain) or +3 spiked chain +25/+20/+15 melee (2d4+20) or +3 shortbow +17/+12/+7 ranged (1d6+3/x3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. with spiked chain)
Special Attacks: Blood drain, children of the night, create spawn, dominate, energy drain, infectious breath, maddening countenance, rapid blood drain, spell-like abilities, stench
Special Qualities: Alternate form, damage reduction 15/silver and magic, darkvision 60 ft., fast healing 8, gaseous form, lifesense, reduced vampire weaknesses, resistance to cold 10 and electricity 10, spider climb, supernatural scent, +6 turn resistance, undead traits, unnatural aura, vampire weaknesses
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +10, Will +8
Abilities: Str 30, Dex 17, Con -, Int 13, Wis 16, Cha 18
Skills: Bluff +12, Climb +16, Hide +10, Jump +15, Listen +17, Move Silently +10, Ride +12, Search +9, Sense Motive +11, Spot +17, 6 more
Feats: Alertness (B), Blind-Fight, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes (B), Dodge (B), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain), Improved Initiative (B), Improved Unarmed Strike, Lightning Reflexes (B), Mobility, Power Attack, Spring Attack, Weapon Focus (spiked chain), Weapon Specialization (spiked chain), Whirlwind Attack, 1 fighter bonus feat
Environment: Temperate plains
Organization: Solitary, gang (1 plus 2-4 vampire lords or arch-lords), or troupe (1 plus 2-4 vampire lords or arch-lords plus 6-10 vampires)
Challenge Rating: 17
Treasure: Triple standard (including cloak of resistance +3, +3 shortbow, and +3 spiked chain)
Alignment: Always evil (any)
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +15

Alternate Form (Su): A greater vampire can assume the shape of a bat, dire bat, wolf, or dire wolf as a swift action. While in its alternate form, the vampire loses its natural slam attack and dominate ability, but it gains the natural weapons and extraordinary special attacks of its new form. It can remain in that form until it assumes another or until the next sunrise. (If the base creature is not terrestrial, this power might allow other forms.)

Infections Breath (Su): Once per minute, a greater vampire can breath a 30-foot cone of noxious vapor. Creatures within the area must succeed on a DC 19 Fortitude save or be inflicted with mindfire (or another disease of the DM's choice) and be nauseated for 1d4 rounds. The breath weapon lingers for 24 hours thereafter, and any creature entering its area must make a Fortitude save. A creature who successfully saves is immune to the effects of this greater vampire's infectious breath for 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Lifesense (Su): A greater vampire continually detects the presence of living creatures within 15 feet. This functions similarly to a detect undead spell, except that it detects living creatures instead of undead, and the greater vampire is never stunned if a living creature has more than twice its Hit Dice. Lifesense is always active.

Madenning Countenance (Su): A humanoid within 60 feet with 1 Hit Die or less that views a greater vampire's true form must attempt a DC 19 Will save. Failure indicates the creature's mind is shattered, leaving it permanently insane (as the insanity spell). A creature that makes the save is immune to that particular greater vampire's maddening countenance for 24 hours. This is a mind-affecting ability. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Rapid Blood Drain (Ex): A greater vampire can rapidly suck blood from a living victim with its fangs by making a successful grapple check. If it pins the foe, it drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution drain each round the pin is maintained. On each such successful attack, the greater vampire gains 5 temporary hit points.

Additionally, the victim must make a DC 19 Fortitude save or become exhausted, and make a second DC 19 Fortitude save or be dazed for 1 round. The save DCs are Charisma-based. 

Reduced Vampire Weaknesses: Princelings and older greater vampires lose the traditional vulnerability to garlic and mirrors. In fact, any mirror presented to such a greater vampire immediately cracks and becomes useless. 

Spell-Like Abilities: At will--hold portal, knock; 5/day--deep slumber (DC 17). Caster level 11th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Stench (Ex): The stink of death and corruption surrounding these creatures is overwhelming. Living creatures within 10 feet must succeed on a DC 19 Fortitude save or be sickened for 1d6+4 minutes. A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same vampire’s stench for 24 hours. A delay poison or neutralize poison spell removes the effect from a sickened creature. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws. In addition, the stench spoils food and water, along with magical liquids (such as potions) that fail a 19 Will save. This ability does not affect holy water. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Supernatural Scent (Su): A greater vampire can notice the presence of creatures within 180 feet. This ability allows the vampire instantly to determine race, gender, and the presence of armor and weapons. If the greater vampire concentrates for a round, it can detect magic auras with its supernatural scent (as the first round of the detect magic spell) and alignment auras (as the first round of detect chaos, evil, good, and law spells).

Unnatural Aura (Su): Animals, whether wild or domesticated, can sense the unnatural presence of a greater vampire at a distance of 15 feet. They will not willingly approach nearer than that and panic if forced to do so; they remain panicked as long as they are within that range. A character may calm a panicked animal with a DC 19 Handle Animal check if the animal is trained. However, even a trained animal panics if brought within 10 feet. The check DC is Charisma-based.




Pick a feat and 6 fighter skill ranks, and we're golden.


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## freyar (May 30, 2008)

Improved Feint would be fun, but I think Improved Grapple is really the way to go. 

Let's fit 3 ranks each into Climb and Jump.  Ride seems less important given that it can turn into a bat and fly (and especially due to Unnatural Aura).


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## Shade (May 30, 2008)

Sounds good.   Updated.

Vampire Prince, 13th-Level Human Fighter
Medium Undead (Augmented Humanoid)
Hit Dice: 13d12 (84 hp)
Initiative: +7
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 23 (+3 Dex, +6 natural, +4 masterwork chain shirt), touch 13, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +13/+27
Attack: Slam +25 melee (1d6+10 plus energy drain) or +4 spiked chain +28 melee (2d4+21) or +4 shortbow +19 ranged (1d6+4/x3)
Full Attack: Slam +25 melee (1d6+10 plus energy drain) or +4 spiked chain +29/+24/+19 melee (2d4+21) or +4 shortbow +19/+14/+9 ranged (1d6+4/x3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. with spiked chain)
Special Attacks: Blood drain, children of the night, create spawn, dominate, energy drain, infectious breath, maddening countenance, rapid blood drain, spell-like abilities, stench
Special Qualities: Alternate form, damage reduction 20/silver and magic, darkvision 60 ft., fast healing 9, gaseous form, improved turn resistance, lifesense, reduced vampire weaknesses, resistance to cold 10 and electricity 10, spider climb, supernatural scent, +6 turn resistance, undead traits, unnatural aura, vampire weaknesses
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +12, Will +10
Abilities: Str 34, Dex 17, Con -, Int 13, Wis 16, Cha 20, plus 1 level increase
Skills: Bluff +13, Climb +21, Hide +10, Jump +20, Listen +17, Move Silently +10, Ride +12, Search +9, Sense Motive +11, Spot +17, 6 more
Feats: Alertness (B), Blind-Fight, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes (B), Dodge (B), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain), Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative (B), Improved Unarmed Strike, Lightning Reflexes (B), Mobility, Power Attack, Spring Attack, Weapon Focus (spiked chain), Weapon Specialization (spiked chain), Whirlwind Attack, 1 general feat and 1 fighter bonus feat
Environment: Temperate plains
Organization: Solitary, gang (1 plus 1-3 vampire princelings), or troupe (1 plus 2-4 vampire princelings plus 4-8 vampire lords or arch-lords plus 10-16 vampires)
Challenge Rating: 20
Treasure: Triple standard (including cloak of resistance +4, +4 shortbow, and +4 spiked chain)
Alignment: Always evil (any)
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +17

Alternate Form (Su): A greater vampire can assume the shape of a bat, dire bat, wolf, or dire wolf as a swift action. While in its alternate form, the vampire loses its natural slam attack and dominate ability, but it gains the natural weapons and extraordinary special attacks of its new form. It can remain in that form until it assumes another or until the next sunrise. (If the base creature is not terrestrial, this power might allow other forms.)

Improved Turn Resistance (Ex): A prince cannot be commanded (but can still be rebuked or turned).

Infections Breath (Su): Once per minute, a greater vampire can breath a 30-foot cone of noxious vapor. Creatures within the area must succeed on a DC 21 Fortitude save or be inflicted with mindfire (or another disease of the DM's choice) and be nauseated for 1d4 rounds. The breath weapon lingers for 24 hours thereafter, and any creature entering its area must make a Fortitude save. A creature who successfully saves is immune to the effects of this greater vampire's infectious breath for 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Lifesense (Su): A greater vampire continually detects the presence of living creatures within 15 feet. This functions similarly to a detect undead spell, except that it detects living creatures instead of undead, and the greater vampire is never stunned if a living creature has more than twice its Hit Dice. Lifesense is always active.

Madenning Countenance (Su): A humanoid within 60 feet with 1 Hit Die or less that views a greater vampire's true form must attempt a DC 21 Will save. Failure indicates the creature's mind is shattered, leaving it permanently insane (as the insanity spell). A creature that makes the save is immune to that particular greater vampire's maddening countenance for 24 hours. This is a mind-affecting ability. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Rapid Blood Drain (Ex): A greater vampire can rapidly suck blood from a living victim with its fangs by making a successful grapple check. If it pins the foe, it drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution drain each round the pin is maintained. On each such successful attack, the greater vampire gains 5 temporary hit points.

Additionally, the victim must make a DC 21 Fortitude save or become exhausted, and make a second DC 21 Fortitude save or become staggered for 1d6 rounds, and make a third DC 21 Fortitude save or be dazed for 1 round. The save DCs are Charisma-based. 

Reduced Vampire Weaknesses: Princelings and older greater vampires lose the traditional vulnerability to garlic and mirrors. In fact, any mirror presented to such a greater vampire immediately cracks and becomes useless. Princes do not recoil from holy symbols presented by evil characters.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will--hold portal, knock; 5/day--deep slumber (DC 18). Caster level 13th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Stench (Ex): The stink of death and corruption surrounding these creatures is overwhelming. Living creatures within 10 feet must succeed on a DC 21 Fortitude save or be sickened for 1d6+4 minutes. A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same vampire’s stench for 24 hours. A delay poison or neutralize poison spell removes the effect from a sickened creature. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws. In addition, the stench spoils food and water, along with magical liquids (such as potions) that fail a 21 Will save. This ability does not affect holy water. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Supernatural Scent (Su): A greater vampire can notice the presence of creatures within 180 feet. This ability allows the vampire instantly to determine race, gender, and the presence of armor and weapons. If the greater vampire concentrates for a round, it can detect magic auras with its supernatural scent (as the first round of the detect magic spell) and alignment auras (as the first round of detect chaos, evil, good, and law spells).

Unnatural Aura (Su): Animals, whether wild or domesticated, can sense the unnatural presence of a greater vampire at a distance of 15 feet. They will not willingly approach nearer than that and panic if forced to do so; they remain panicked as long as they are within that range. A character may calm a panicked animal with a DC 21 Handle Animal check if the animal is trained. However, even a trained animal panics if brought within 10 feet. The check DC is Charisma-based.


For the ability increase, how about Dex?

For the feats, how about Greater Weapon Focus (spiked chain)and Greater Weapon Specialization (spiked chain)?

We've also got 6 more skill ranks to allocate.


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## freyar (May 30, 2008)

Dex is good.

Let's do Deflect Arrows and GWF.  I dun'no why, but I kind of like the idea of a ninja-like vampire swatting arrows away. 

I'm guessing Climb is already full ranks.  But we've only got 9 ranks in Jump so far, so let's put all 6 in Jump.

Edit: Let's put in GWS next time!


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## Shade (May 30, 2008)

Updated.

Neither Climb nor Jump were near max ranks, so I split the 6 ranks between them.

Last one...

Vampire Arch-Prince, 15th-Level Human Fighter
Medium Undead (Augmented Humanoid)
Hit Dice: 15d12 (97 hp)
Initiative: +8
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 24 (+4 Dex, +6 natural, +4 masterwork chain shirt), touch 14, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +15/+34
Attack: Slam +30 melee (1d6+15 plus energy drain) or +5 spiked chain +37 melee (2d4+31) or +5 shortbow +24 ranged (1d6+5/x3)
Full Attack: Slam +30 melee (1d6+15 plus energy drain) or +5 spiked chain +37/+32/+27 melee (2d4+31) or +5 shortbow +24/+19/+14 ranged (1d6+5/x3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. with spiked chain)
Special Attacks: Blood drain, children of the night, create spawn, dominate, energy drain, infectious breath, maddening countenance, rapid blood drain, spell-like abilities, stench
Special Qualities: Alternate form, damage reduction 20/silver and magic, darkvision 60 ft., fast healing 10, gaseous form, improved turn resistance, lifesense, reduced vampire weaknesses, resistance to cold 10 and electricity 10, spider climb, supernatural scent, +6 turn resistance, undead traits, unnatural aura, vampire weaknesses
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +16, Will +17
Abilities: Str 40, Dex 18, Con -, Int 13, Wis 16, Cha 22
Skills: Bluff +15, Climb +30, Hide +11, Jump +29, Listen +17, Move Silently +11, Ride +13, Search +9, Sense Motive +11, Spot +17
Feats: Alertness (B), Blind-Fight, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes (B), Deflect Arrows, Dodge (B), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain), Greater Weapon Specialization (spiked chain), Greater Weapon Focus (spiked chain), Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative (B), Improved Unarmed Strike, Lightning Reflexes (B), Mobility, Power Attack, Spring Attack, Weapon Focus (spiked chain), Weapon Specialization (spiked chain), Whirlwind Attack, 1 more feat
Environment: Temperate plains
Organization: Solitary, gang (1 plus 2-4 vampire princelings or princes), or troupe (1 plus 3-6 vampire princelings or princes plus 8-12 vampire lords or arch-lords plus 10-30 vampires)
Challenge Rating: 23
Treasure: Triple standard (including cloak of resistance +5, +5 shortbow, and +5 spiked chain)
Alignment: Always evil (any)
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +19

Alternate Form (Su): A greater vampire can assume the shape of a bat, dire bat, wolf, or dire wolf as a swift action. While in its alternate form, the vampire loses its natural slam attack and dominate ability, but it gains the natural weapons and extraordinary special attacks of its new form. It can remain in that form until it assumes another or until the next sunrise. (If the base creature is not terrestrial, this power might allow other forms.)

Improved Turn Resistance (Ex): An arch-prince cannot be commanded or rebuked (but can still be turned).

Infections Breath (Su): Once per minute, a greater vampire can breath a 30-foot cone of noxious vapor. Creatures within the area must succeed on a DC 23 Fortitude save or be inflicted with mindfire (or another disease of the DM's choice) and be nauseated for 1d4 rounds. The breath weapon lingers for 24 hours thereafter, and any creature entering its area must make a Fortitude save. A creature who successfully saves is immune to the effects of this greater vampire's infectious breath for 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Lifesense (Su): A greater vampire continually detects the presence of living creatures within 15 feet. This functions similarly to a detect undead spell, except that it detects living creatures instead of undead, and the greater vampire is never stunned if a living creature has more than twice its Hit Dice. Lifesense is always active.

Madenning Countenance (Su): A humanoid within 60 feet with 1 Hit Die or less that views a greater vampire's true form must attempt a DC 23 Will save. Failure indicates the creature's mind is shattered, leaving it permanently insane (as the insanity spell). A creature that makes the save is immune to that particular greater vampire's maddening countenance for 24 hours. This is a mind-affecting ability. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Rapid Blood Drain (Ex): A greater vampire can rapidly suck blood from a living victim with its fangs by making a successful grapple check. If it pins the foe, it drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution drain each round the pin is maintained. On each such successful attack, the greater vampire gains 5 temporary hit points.

Additionally, the victim must make a DC 23 Fortitude save or become nauseated for 1d6 rounds, a second DC 23 Fortitude save or become exhausted, and make a third DC 23 Fortitude save or become staggered for 1d6 rounds, and make a fourth DC 23 Fortitude save or be dazed for 1 round. The save DCs are Charisma-based. 

Reduced Vampire Weaknesses: Princelings and older greater vampires lose the traditional vulnerability to garlic and mirrors. In fact, any mirror presented to such a greater vampire immediately cracks and becomes useless. Arch-princes only recoil from holy symbols presented by good-aligned characters.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will--hold portal, knock; 5/day--deep slumber (DC 19). Caster level 15th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Stench (Ex): The stink of death and corruption surrounding these creatures is overwhelming. Living creatures within 10 feet must succeed on a DC 23 Fortitude save or be sickened for 1d6+4 minutes. A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same vampire’s stench for 24 hours. A delay poison or neutralize poison spell removes the effect from a sickened creature. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws. In addition, the stench spoils food and water, along with magical liquids (such as potions) that fail a 23 Will save. This ability does not affect holy water. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Supernatural Scent (Su): A greater vampire can notice the presence of creatures within 180 feet. This ability allows the vampire instantly to determine race, gender, and the presence of armor and weapons. If the greater vampire concentrates for a round, it can detect magic auras with its supernatural scent (as the first round of the detect magic spell) and alignment auras (as the first round of detect chaos, evil, good, and law spells).

Unnatural Aura (Su): Animals, whether wild or domesticated, can sense the unnatural presence of a greater vampire at a distance of 15 feet. They will not willingly approach nearer than that and panic if forced to do so; they remain panicked as long as they are within that range. A character may calm a panicked animal with a DC 23 Handle Animal check if the animal is trained. However, even a trained animal panics if brought within 10 feet. The check DC is Charisma-based.



I added GWS as you suggested above, and split the ranks between Climb and Jump.   All that's left is to decide the final feat.


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## freyar (May 30, 2008)

Just realized this guy has a spiked chain!  We really have to go with Improved Disarm or Improved Trip for the last feat.  In fact, I'd even be willing to go back to the prince and trade out Deflect Arrows if you want to use both of those.


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## Shade (May 30, 2008)

Updated.   Finally finished?


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## freyar (May 31, 2008)

You left "1 more feat" on the feat line, but looks good!  We need a real celebration smiley here!


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## Shade (Jun 2, 2008)

MOUNTAIN HAG

FREQUENCY: Very Rare
No. APPEARING: 1-3
AC: 7
MV: 15"
HD: 5+5
% IN LAIR: 65%
TREASURE TYPE: R,S,T
#AT: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: by weapon type
SA: see below
SD: see below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 5%
INTELLIGENCE: Average-High
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic Evil
SIZE: M
PSIONIC ABILITY: nil
Attack/Defence modes: nil
LEVEL/xp VALUE: VI/650+6/hp

The Mountain Hag is a relative of the Sea Hag, inhabiting mountains and dismal rocky wastes. The lair of the Mountain Hag is typically a cave in a mountainside. Like all other Hags, they hate beauty and goodness, and when they come out of their caves it is always to commit some act of evil.

The appearance of a Mountain Hag is so hideous as to require any character of less than 5th level to save vs magic or lose 1-10 strength points for 1-8 turns; Clerics and Paladins are allowed a bonus to this saving throw equal to their level.

The Mountain Hag fights using a filthy, jagged and rusty dagger (D 1-4), which has a 75% chance of carrying a disease (treat as chronic, severe, affecting blood and gastro-intestinal organs - see Dungeon Masters Guide p14). However, a Mountain Hag will rely whenever possible on followers and on her magical abilities, fighting hand-to-hand only as a last resort to clear a path for her escape.

A Mountain Hag can fly, 1/day, paralyse (as a wand of paralysation) by touch, 3 times/day, and cause darkness, 3 times/day. She can use magic-user scrolls as a 10th level thief, and can also speak with animals at will. There is a 30% chance that a Mountain Hag will have a familiar, of a type determined as for the first level magic-user spell find familiar.

A Mountain Hag may call down a terrible curse on one victim, who must save vs magic or lose 1-4 constitution points, and must make all subsequent saving throws vs poison or disease at -2 while the curse is in effect. Any wound sustained during this period will heal at half the normal rate, and has a 25% chance of becoming infected. The curse lasts for one lunar month or until the victim dies or receives a remove curse spell. A Mountain Hag may only have one curse in effect at any given time.

Finally, Mountain Hags are immune to poison and disease, and make all saving throws against mind-influencing spells at +2.

Originally appeared in Imagine Magazine #5 (1983).


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## Shade (Jun 2, 2008)

Despite being "relatives of the sea hag", the two have little in common.

Its Hit Dice put it between the sea hag and green hag in terms of power.

Here are the ability scores and other pertinent bits from those two:
Sea Hag: Str 19, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 14, +3 natural
Green Hag: Str 19, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 14, +11 natural


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## freyar (Jun 3, 2008)

Seems like Str 19, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 14, +7 natural.  We could fiddle with Int (down to 11?) or natural armor if anyone cares.


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## Shade (Jun 3, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Shall we give it a Climb speed, since it dwells on mountains?



> The appearance of a Mountain Hag is so hideous as to require any character of less than 5th level to save vs magic or lose 1-10 strength points for 1-8 turns; Clerics and Paladins are allowed a bonus to this saving throw equal to their level.




Gaze or aura?



> The Mountain Hag fights using a filthy, jagged and rusty dagger (D 1-4), which has a 75% chance of carrying a disease (treat as chronic, severe, affecting blood and gastro-intestinal organs - see Dungeon Masters Guide p14).




Any suggestions for the disease?



> A Mountain Hag can fly, 1/day, paralyse (as a wand of paralysation) by touch, 3 times/day, and cause darkness, 3 times/day. She can use magic-user scrolls as a 10th level thief, and can also speak with animals at will. There is a 30% chance that a Mountain Hag will have a familiar, of a type determined as for the first level magic-user spell find familiar.




Spell-Like Abilities: 3/day—darkness, ghoul touch (DC X); 1/day—fly. Caster level 5th?. The save DC is Charisma-based.

It sounds like ranks in Use Magic Device and maybe a racial bonus.

We can probably drop the familiar, since it advances by character class and can take one with its first level of wizard or sorcerer.



> A Mountain Hag may call down a terrible curse on one victim, who must save vs magic or lose 1-4 constitution points, and must make all subsequent saving throws vs poison or disease at -2 while the curse is in effect. Any wound sustained during this period will heal at half the normal rate, and has a 25% chance of becoming infected. The curse lasts for one lunar month or until the victim dies or receives a remove curse spell. A Mountain Hag may only have one curse in effect at any given time.




Hag's Curse (Su):  A mountain hag can bestow a terrible curse by touch.  The victim must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or take 1d4 points of Constitution damage and suffer a -2 penalty on saving throws vs. disease or poison.  Additionally, the victim's natural healing rate is halved, and any time it takes damage it must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or contract a random disease.   The curse lasts for 30 days unless removed with a remove curse spell or similar magic.   A mountain hag may only curse one individual at a given time.  If it chooses to curse a second victim, the curse is immediately lifted from the first victim.  The save DCs are Charisma-based.



> Finally, Mountain Hags are immune to poison and disease, and make all saving throws against mind-influencing spells at +2.




Iron Will as a bonus feat, or an ability that grants +2 racial bonus against mind-influencing spells and abilities?


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## freyar (Jun 4, 2008)

Need to process most of that later, but why not something like this?


			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Horrific Appearance (Su): The sight of a sea hag is so revolting that anyone (other than another hag) who sets eyes upon one must succeed on a DC 13 Fortitude save or instantly be weakened, taking 2d6 points of Strength damage. This damage cannot reduce a victim’s Strength score below 0, but anyone reduced to Strength 0 is helpless. Creatures that are affected by this power or that successfully save against it cannot be affected again by the same hag’s horrific appearance for 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma-based.




So sort of like a gaze but not tied to the eyes.


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## Shade (Jun 4, 2008)

Since it is based off the sea hag, I'd say that is perfect.


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2008)

Updated.


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## freyar (Jun 13, 2008)

Ok, catching up:

Climb speed good.

I think slimy doom sounds good for the disease (even if it is contact vs injury).

CL5 is good.  Maybe a +4 racial UMD bonus?

I like the curse.

Uhh, let's do a racial Will bonus vs mind-affecting.  That sort of thing is common enough.


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2008)

Updated.

How does this look?

Rusty Dagger: Every mountain hag wields a rusty dagger that transmits slimy doom (as an injury, rather than contact, disease) on a successful hit.

Skills: 24
Concentration, Craft or Knowledge (any one), Hide, Listen, and Spot are common among hags.

Feats: 2
Alertness, Blind-Fight, and Great Fortitude are common among hags.


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2008)

Rusty Dagger *(Ex)* is good.

Let's go with Craft (any one) and Knowledge (any one) and give them 4 ranks of all 6.

I'd pick Alertness and Great Fort (boy is their Fort save low!).


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2008)

Updated.

Should we mention what happens to the rusty dagger in the hands of a non-hag?   I'd suggest it quickly crumbles to dust.

For CR, they fall between the CR 3 sea hag and CR 4 green hag in Hit Dice.  I think they have enough additional SAs to make CR 4.

Spell resistance should probably also fall between the sea and green hags (14 and 18, respectively).  SR 16?


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2008)

Agreed to all that.  Darkvision 60 ft as standard for monstrous humanoid or boost it to 90 like the green hag (oddly the sea hag doesn't get darkvision at all).  You want to copy in the covey text?


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2008)

Updated.

Let's go 90 feet on the darkvision.

Rather than copy in the covey text, how about just mentioning in flavor text that they form coveys just like other hags?

Anything else?


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2008)

Sounds good to me.  Looks done.


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2008)

Only four creatures remain in this thread, and several of them are silly.

*BIRCH TREE SPIRIT*
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOUR CLASS: 1 or 7
MOVE: 3"
HIT DICE: 5+1
% IN LAIR: 100%
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1 hit point
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Insanity
SPECIAL DEFENCES: Spell and weapon immunity
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Low
ALIGNMENT: Neutral (evil)
SIZE: M
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defence Modes: Nil/nil
LEVEL/XP VALUE: V/465+6 per hit point

A birch tree spirit appears as an amorphous white cloud, smelling slightly of new, green wood. It attacks with a pseudopod with which it attempts to touch the forehead of a victim. A successful 'to hit' roll indicates that it has done so, and the victim must save vs Spells or become insane (see DMG p83). The victim also develops a white, leafshaped mark upon his or her forehead. The insanity and the mark persist until the victim receives a remove curse spell.

While in cloud form, a birch tree spirit cannot move more than 6" away from the wooden object/tree to which it is bound. It is immune to all spells, has an Armour Class of 1 and may only be hit by silver or magical weapons. However, it may be 'turned' by a druid. The druid is treated as an equivalent level cleric, and the birch tree spirit as the equivalent of a wraith.

If turned, it will return to the object/tree to which it is bound. It is then much more vulnerable to attack. Its Armour Class drops to 7, and it may be struck by any type of weapon. Fire-based attacks do double damage, and a warp wood spell will cause 1d4 points of damage per level of the caster. It remains immune to the effects of all other spells.

Birch tree spirits are bound into the service of druids or magic users specialising in plantcraft by either a hold plant or charm plant spell. It will never have any treasure of its own, only what it has been given to watch over. Because they are always guardians, they are never encountered as wandering monsters.

Also from "Tir Nan Og", by Chris Barlow, Imagine #17, August 1984


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## Big Mac (Jun 17, 2008)

*Re: Birch Tree Spirit*

This sounds like it is going to have features of a Dryad, especially "Tree Dependent":

Tree Dependent (Su)
Each dryad is mystically bound to a single, enormous oak tree and must never stray more than 300 yards from it. Any who do become ill and die within 4d6 hours. A dryad’s oak does not radiate magic.​
As for the rest, it seems like the creature is similar to an outsider attacking from the ethereal or shadow plane. Maybe there is a creature on one of those planes with similar attack forms.

EDIT: I'm not sure that druids being able to "turn" these creatures fits in with the 3rd edition rules, but it certainly fits in with the cleric's Plant Domain. (I wonder if this is supposed to be an undead fey creature or an undead plant.)


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2008)

We seem to be getting into the strange ones.  I don't think it seems to have really the characteristics of a plant, so I'd either go with Fey or Undead (augmented fey).  Everyone else?


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## Shade (Jun 20, 2008)

Spirit often means one of three things:


Undead
Fey
Outsider (most often in Oriental Adventures)

I'm leaning toward undead, due to the "turning" bit, but I could be persuaded to fey.


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2008)

If we went undead, could we make it augmented fey?


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## Shade (Jun 20, 2008)

I don't see why not.  Nothing indicated they were originally treants or the like.


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2008)

Well, like Big Mac, I think these are probably undead dryads or something.


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## RavinRay (Jun 22, 2008)

It certainly feels like an undead dryad. Is this the first documented undead fey or are there others?


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## Big Mac (Jun 23, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Well, like Big Mac, I think these are probably undead dryads or something.




I did also point out that plants can be turned:



			
				Plant Domain from the SRD said:
			
		

> Granted Powers
> Rebuke or command plant creatures as an evil cleric rebukes or commands undead. Use this ability a total number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. This granted power is a supernatural ability.




If you check out all the domain granted powers, they include six that replicate or alter the cleric's turning abilities: Air turns earth creatures, Earth turns air creatures, Fire turns water creatures and Water turns fire creatures. Sun does a "greater turning" instead of a normal one and Plant rebukes plant creatures (like an evil cleric rebuking undead).

So it might be worth working out if this spirit is supposed to be the spirit of a tree. Druids can't turn anything in 3rd edition*, but clerics with the plant domain can rebuke plant creatures. This creature *could* be a nature cleric's big chance to show off their granted power.

So I'd say either undead *or* plant (*or* maybe both). None of these options are perfect, but each one retains the chance for this creature to get turned. An undead fey would give the *biggest* chance for the creature to get turned as the plant domain is not universal. (But none of the options helps a druid.)

_* = Maybe it would be better if they could turn plant creatures, but they can't. That is something Pathfinder RPG might change._

One of the things that is confusing is that the description says: "If turned, it will return to the object/tree to which it is bound." Now if it only said tree, it could be a dryad-like creature. On the other hand if it said the tree was dead, or the object was cut from a dryad's tree, it could be an undead dryad who's tree was killed.

It would have been helpful if the creature was accompanied with a spell that bound a spirit into a tree (or wooden object). Then we could have a druid/cleric of nature summon the spirit as a guardian.

This monster feels like a punchline looking for a joke.

I think we might need to guess. Anybody got a coin?


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## GrayLinnorm (Jun 23, 2008)

I think the creature sounds like a fey to me (aren't dryads, which are fey, supposed to be tree spirits?).  Why don't we just say that a druid can turn it like an undead and just use the standard mechanics for the turn attempt? We can also say that clerics with the Plant domain can rebuke it as a plant.


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## freyar (Jun 23, 2008)

Well, as I said, I think I like fey, but undead (augmented fey) is probably the consensus.  In that case, I'd just give it an SQ called "Turning Vulnerability" or something such that druid levels count as cleric levels for turning them and that clerics with the ability to turn plants get a +2 bonus to their level for turning checks?

IMO, this would be a weird plant, along the lines of the phantom fungus.


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## GrayLinnorm (Jun 23, 2008)

The augmented subtype only works for templated creatures.  I have never seen a base creature with it.  And I think the turning vulnerability is because of the druid's power over nature rather than it being undead (regular clerics can't turn it).


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## Big Mac (Jun 24, 2008)

Hmmmm. Something has been bugging me about this creature since the begining. I've tried to argue a way to make this creature work, but I'm not happy with it. I think I finally realised why.

I'm starting to think the turning thing is a bit of a dead end. Druids don't normally have turning power - right.

So a player of a druid PC is *never* going to think of trying to turn one of these creatures. So what is the point of a creature that can be turned by druids?

All that means the GM is going to have to drop some sort of "why don't you try to turn it like a cleric" hint. Which of course could come across as the GM telling the players the answer.

I think what we actually need is something that works *in a similar way* to a turning attempt, but something that isn't called turning.

Turning is when a cleric repells undead creatures (or other creatures if they have the right domain). So how about a SQ that makes these creatures somehow get repelled by druids. And how about making it semi-automatic. That would mean the GM wouldn't need to drop hints.

The original text says: "Birch tree spirits are bound into the service of druids or magic users specialising in plantcraft by either a hold plant or charm plant spell." So how about using that to give these creatures a massive fear of druids and magic users specialising in plantcraft (which would be druids, rangers and clerics with the plant domain in 3rd edition terms).

How about calling the SQ "Hierophobia"?

The Yau-Mor (from the Converting Al-Qadim and Oriental Adventures creatures thread. Seem to have the opposite attitude to fear. Here is the text:

"In particular, yau-mor hate spellcasters, and will always seek to attack them when possible. They are not too swift on the uptake, however, and will not attack mages and priests until those individuals do something to call attention to themselves. After one has selected a spellcaster as a target, it will not attack others until the original target is dead."

I think that text could be inspiration for a Hierophbia quality:

Hierophobia (Ex):

As part of ritual that summons a birch tree spirit and binds it into its tree, it is infused with an unnatural fear of anyone who can wield natural magic. Birch tree sprits fear druids, rangers and clerics with the plant domain. However, they have no special ability to detect natural magic and only show their fear when a spellcaster does something that draws attention to their ability. After a birch tree spirit becomes aware of a spellcaster who can cast druid, ranger or plant spells they immediately retreat into their tree and...X​
I haven't got to the specifics of what happens when the go back into their tree, but that could follow along from the original text and this would then be fairly true to the original intention. (I'm guessing it would be similar to what happens to a dryad who hid in their tree.)

But if we did make this switch, it would allow us forget about this creature being an undead to do what freyar wanted to do from the start - make it a fey creature.


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## Shade (Jun 24, 2008)

I'm sold on fey and fine with some sort of fear of druids.

Do we want it to be incorporeal, or something like the nishruu or phiuhl?

Gaseous Form (Ex): Since its body is composed of mist, a nishruu can pass through small holes or narrow openings. It also has damage reduction 10/magic and immunity to poison and is not subject to extra damage from critical hits. Though a nishruu is vulnerable to cold- and fire-based attacks, such effects cannot form inside its gaseous body.

Gaseous Form (Ex): A phiuhl's insubstantial form grants it immunity to critical hits. A phiuhl cannot run, but it can fly (slowly), and it is subject to winds. It cannot wear armor, manipulate solid objects, or enter water or other liquids. It can pass through small holes or narrow openings--even mere cracks. It also can occupy squares occupied by enemies (see Dessicate, above).


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## freyar (Jun 25, 2008)

I think I prefer the gaseous form version.  DR X/magic or silver?  Normally I'd suggest DR 5 for this many HD, but with the 2 ways to bypass, I could see DR 10.  With spell immunity,  which is what it gets in the original text, it might also be a slightly higher CR as well.


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## Shade (Jun 25, 2008)

Sounds good.  Let's figure out ability scores.

We know Int is Low (5-7).

The phiuhl has Str 10, while the nishruu has "-" like incorporeal creatures.  Since this thing only touches opponents, I think "-" seems appropriate.

Its AC converts to 19 when free floating and 13 when it retreats to its tree.  I'm thinking it should lose its Dex modifier, but possibly retain a deflection bonus.  Since Cha isthe norm for determining deflection bonuses, I'd suggest the following:

Str -, Dex 22, Con 10, Int 5, Wis 11, Cha 17

Thoughts?


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## freyar (Jun 25, 2008)

Looks reasonable, though I'd be fine with a weak Str and WF as a bonus feat.


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## Shade (Jun 25, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Jun 26, 2008)

Huh, weird that gaseous form gives perfect flight but is still subject to wind.

It should have immunity to all spells that allow SR except for warp wood when in tree form.


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## Shade (Jun 30, 2008)

Agreed.

Updated.

How does the wood bond ability look?  Does it capture everything we discussed?


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## freyar (Jul 1, 2008)

Actually, there are a few changes.

First off, the orginal gave 6 feet range for wood bond, so maybe we should go to 10 feet rather than 1000.

Next, when inside the bonded object, it should keep the deflection bonus to AC but lose the Dex bonus.

Finally, it's immune to magic all the time, but it takes 1d4/CL from warp wood when in its bonded object.  We should write this as a separate SA:

Immunity to Magic (Ex): A birch tree spirit is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance, except as follows.  When the birch tree spirit has retreated into its bonded object, it takes 1d4 points of damage per caster level from a warp wood spell.


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## Shade (Jul 1, 2008)

Updated.

We need to work on its insanity touch.



> It attacks with a pseudopod with which it attempts to touch the forehead of a victim. A successful 'to hit' roll indicates that it has done so, and the victim must save vs Spells or become insane (see DMG p83). The victim also develops a white, leafshaped mark upon his or her forehead. The insanity and the mark persist until the victim receives a remove curse spell.




How is this?

Touch of Insanity (Su):  A victim touched by a birch tree spirit must succeed on a DC X Will save or become permanently insane (as the insanity spell).  The victim develops a white, leafshaped mark upon his or her forehead.  Unlike the insanity spell, greater restoration and heal will not end the effect, but remove curse or similar magic removes both the insanity and the mark.  The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## freyar (Jul 2, 2008)

I'd let greater restoration and heal work.  What if we say, "In addition to the usual means of curing the insanity spell, remove curse or similar magic removes both the insanity and the mark"?  These things are only 5HD, after all; there should be plenty of options to get rid of a permanent effect.


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2008)

Fair enough.  Updated.

Skills: 24

Feats: Weapon Finesse (B), 2 more
Ability Focus (insanity touch)?

Environment: Any forests?

Alignment: Always neutral, often evil?

Advancement: 6-15 HD (Medium)?   (They gain little by growing larger, and actually suffer due to the lower AC and Dex)

Birch tree spirits cannot speak, but understand x (Sylvan and Druidic?).


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## freyar (Jul 2, 2008)

All that you suggest looks good.  We need to be careful with changing "Touch of Insanity" to "Insanity Touch" in the statblock part.

Feats: AF (Touch of Insanity) and maybe Great Fort?

Skills: max out Hide, Move silently, Spot?



> Birch tree spirits are bound into the service of druids or magic users specialising in plantcraft by either a hold plant or charm plant spell. It will never have any treasure of its own, only what it has been given to watch over. Because they are always guardians, they are never encountered as wandering monsters.



Based on this, I'd add a line to the Immunity to Magic SQ.  "Birch Tree Spirits may be bound into service by a Druid or Cleric with the Plant Domain using Command Plants or Control Plants."


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2008)

Agreed to all that.

Updated.

CR 2?


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## freyar (Jul 3, 2008)

This is a tough one to CR.  With a druid in the party, it's probably pretty easy, but otherwise I think the Touch of Insanity is quite powerful.  I had been thinking CR 5-ish.

Here's another question: when it's inside its bonded object, should it gain some protection from the hardness of the wood (5 for a little bit of the bark)?


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## Shade (Jul 3, 2008)

They have poor hit points and can cause no harm outside of insanity, so I can't really see going higher than CR 3.

Sure, hardness 5 makes sense.


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## freyar (Jul 3, 2008)

Sure, CR 3 it is!  I guess having a completely insane party isn't quite the same as a TPK!


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## Shade (Jul 3, 2008)

Another one done.  Only three Imagine Magazine creatures left!

"The children's room has a small cage in one corner which contains four white mice and a small bowl of cereals stands next to it. If the cage is opened and the mice allowed to to get out they will become 4 giant white weremice, who will not attack anybody who fed them."

4 weremice: AC 6; HD 2; hp 7 each; # AT 1; D 1-4; SA Bite may cuase lycanthropy; SD needs silver or magical weapons to hit; AL N; S S; xp 79 each; Special monster -- cf other lycanthropes MM, FF, MM2.

Originally appeared in Imagine Magazine #17 (1984).


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## freyar (Jul 3, 2008)

Oooh, lycanthropes, three statblocks.  Fun, I think. 

Should we start with wererats and modify?


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## Big Mac (Jul 6, 2008)

*Birch Tree Spirit typo*



freyar said:


> Sure, CR 3 it is!  I guess having a completely insane party isn't quite the same as a TPK!




I wonder how you could continue with a game where everyone went insane.

Anyhoo. Great work guys. I only saw one misake and it was my fault. The first sentence in the Hierophobia ability is mangled.



			
				Birch Tree Spirit said:
			
		

> Hierophobia (Ex): As part of ritual that summons a birch tree spirit and binds it into its tree, it is infused with an unnatural fear of anyone who can wield natural magic. Birch tree sprits fear druids, rangers and clerics with the Plant domain. However, they have no special ability to detect natural magic and only show their fear when a spellcaster does something that draws attention to their ability. After a birch tree spirit becomes aware of a spellcaster with such spells they immediately retreat into their bonded tree or wooden object.





It should say: "As part of *the* ritual..."


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## Big Mac (Jul 6, 2008)

freyar said:


> Oooh, lycanthropes, three statblocks.  Fun, I think.




At least it isn't a "mouse dragon". That would be much more complex.



freyar said:


> Should we start with wererats and modify?




I don't see an exact size in the original blurb. Can we make these guys the "hobbits" of the lycanthrope world?


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## freyar (Jul 7, 2008)

Big Mac said:


> I don't see an exact size in the original blurb. Can we make these guys the "hobbits" of the lycanthrope world?




My thought is that these should be a variant lycanthrope template, like at the end of the lycanthrope descriptions in the MM or SRD.  But we could make the sample critter a halfling weremouse.


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## Shade (Jul 7, 2008)

I fixed the birch tree spirit typo, and agree that we should follow the lycanthrope template.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 7, 2008)

Yes, but what in the SRD could model a mouse? A rat. Not even a dire rat... just a rat. Sounds like halfling is going to be a necessity.


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## Shade (Jul 7, 2008)

Here are the mouse familiar stats from the DMG:

Mouse: No familiar is as small and innocuous as a simple mouse, able to move almost anywhere unseen. Mouse familiars provide their masters with a +2 bonus to Hide checks. Mice cannot do any damage in combat. They eat vegetables and grains, primarily.

Mouse: CR -; Fine Magical Beast; HD 1; hp 1/2 master's; Init +0; Spd 10 ft., climb 10 ft.; AC 19 (touch 18, flat-footed 17); Base Atk +0; Grp -21; Atk -; Full Atk -; Space/Reach: 1/2 ft./0 ft.; SQ improved evasion, scent, granted abilities; AL Any; SV Fort +2, Ref +2, Will +1; Str 1, Dex 11, Con 10, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 2.
Skills and Feats: Balance +8, Climb +10, Hide +20, Move Silently +12.


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## Big Mac (Jul 8, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Yes, but what in the SRD could model a mouse? A rat. Not even a dire rat... just a rat. Sounds like halfling is going to be a necessity.




I was mainly getting at having a creature that was a lot shorter than a wererat (i.e. as short as the size category permits).

But using a halfling as the base creature could be fun. They are probably too short to eat an entire human or elf anyway!



Shade said:


> Mouse: No familiar is as small and innocuous as a simple mouse, able to move almost anywhere unseen. Mouse familiars provide their masters with a +2 bonus to Hide checks. Mice cannot do any damage in combat. They eat vegetables and grains, primarily.
> 
> Mouse: CR -; Fine Magical Beast; HD 1; hp 1/2 master's; Init +0; Spd 10 ft., climb 10 ft.; AC 19 (touch 18, flat-footed 17); Base Atk +0; Grp -21; Atk -; Full Atk -; Space/Reach: 1/2 ft./0 ft.; SQ improved evasion, scent, granted abilities; AL Any; SV Fort +2, Ref +2, Will +1; Str 1, Dex 11, Con 10, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 2.
> Skills and Feats: Balance +8, Climb +10, Hide +20, Move Silently +12.




How would that look if you bumped the size up to the lower limit of small?

I think they need to be turned into "dire mice" and given cut down attacks from the dire rat. That should give us the base creature we need. Then maybe we add the template (and use a halfling as the humanoid this base creature is applied to).


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## Shade (Jul 8, 2008)

Probably like so...

Dire Mouse
Small Animal
Hit Dice: 1d8 (4 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), climb 20 ft.
Armor Class: 15 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +1 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/–6
Attack: Bite +4 melee (x-2)
Full Attack: Bite +4 melee (x-2)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +3
Abilities: Str 6, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Skills: Balance +11, Climb +11, Hide +17, Jump +15, Move Silently +13, Swim +11
Feats: Stealthy, Weapon Finesse (B)
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary or family (5–20)
Challenge Rating: 1/4
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 2–3 HD (Small)
Level Adjustment: -

Skills: Dire mice have a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks and a +8 racial bonus on Balance, Climb, Jump, Move Silently, and Swim checks.  They can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened.  Dire mice use their Dexterity modifier for Climb, Jump, and Swim checks.


NOTE:  I couldn't see them as less dextrous than rats, so I used the dire rat's Dex score rather than that of the DMG mouse.


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## Big Mac (Jul 8, 2008)

Shade said:


> Probably like so...
> 
> Dire Mouse
> <snip>




That mouse is great.


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## Shade (Jul 10, 2008)

OK, since it can spread lycanthropy, it appears to be a natural lycanthrope.

Plugging the stats above into the lycanthrope template yields...

Size and Type: The base creature’s type does not change, but the creature gains the shapechanger subtype. 

A lycanthrope uses either the base creature’s or the dire mouse's statistics and special abilities in addition to those described here.

Hit Dice and Hit Points: Same as the base creature.

Speed: Same as the base creature or base animal, depending on which form the weremouse is using. Hybrids use the base creature’s speed.

Armor Class: The base creature’s natural armor bonus increases by +2 in all forms. In hybrid form, the weremouse's natural armor bonus is equal to the natural armor bonus of the base animal or the base creature, whichever is better.

Base Attack/Grapple: As the base base creature. The weremouse's grapple bonus uses its attack bonus and modifiers for Strength and size depending on the weremouse's form.

Attacks: Same as the base creature or base animal, depending on which form the weremouse is using. A weremouse in hybrid form gains two claw attacks and a bite attack as natural weapons. These weapons deal damage based on the hybrid form’s size. A hybrid may attack with a weapon and a bite, or may attack with its natural weapons. The bite attack of a hybrid is a secondary attack.

Hybrid Size Claw Bite 
Small 1d3 1d4 
Medium 1d4 1d6 
Large 1d6 1d8 
Huge 2d4 2d6 

Damage: Same as the base creature or base animal, depending on which form the weremouse is in.

Special Attacks: A weremouse retains the special attacks of the base creature or base animal, depending on which form it is using, and also gains the special attacks described below.

A weremouse's hybrid form does not gain any special attacks of the base animal. A weremouse spellcaster cannot cast spells with verbal, somatic, or material components while in animal form, or spells with verbal components while in hybrid form.

Curse of Lycanthropy (Su): Any humanoid or giant hit by a weremouse's bite attack in animal or hybrid form must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or contract lycanthropy. If the victim’s size is not within one size category of the weremouse the victim cannot contract lycanthropy from that weremouse. Afflicted lycanthropes cannot pass on the curse of lycanthropy.

Special Qualities: A weremouse retains all the special qualities of the base creature and the base animal, and also gains those described below.

Alternate Form (Su): A weremouse can assume the form of a dire mouse. It does not assume the ability scores of the animal, but instead adds the animal’s physical ability score modifiers to its own ability scores. A weremouse also can assume a bipedal hybrid form with prehensile hands and animalistic features.

Changing to or from dire mouse or hybrid form is a standard action. A slain weremouse reverts to its humanoid form, although it remains dead. Separated body parts retain their animal form, however. Afflicted lycanthropes find this ability difficult to control (see Lycanthropy as an Affliction, below), but natural lycanthropes have full control over this power.

Damage Reduction (Ex): A weremouse in animal or hybrid form has damage reduction 10/silver.

Mouse Empathy (Ex): In any form, weremice can communicate and empathize with normal or dire mice. This gives them a +4 racial bonus on checks when influencing the animal’s attitude and allows the communication of simple concepts and (if the animal is friendly) commands, such as "friend," "foe," "flee," and "attack."

Low-Light Vision (Ex): A weremouse has low-light vision in any form.

Scent (Ex): A weremouse has the scent ability in any form.

Base Save Bonuses: Increase the base save bonuses of the base creature as follows:  Fort +2, Ref +2.

Abilities: Weremice gain +2 to Wisdom. In addition, when in animal form, a weremouse's physical ability scores are adjusted as follows:  Dex +6. A weremouse in hybrid form modifies its physical ability scores by the same amount.

In addition, a weremouse may also gain an additional ability score increase by virtue of its extra Hit Dice.

Skills: A weremouse gains skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1), as if it had multiclassed into dire mouse. (Animal is never its first Hit Die, though, and it does not gain quadruple skill points for any animal Hit Die.) Balance, Climb, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, and Swim are class skills for the weremouse's animal levels. In any form, a weremouse has a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks and a +8 racial bonus on Balance, Climb, Jump, Move Silently, and Swim checks.

Feats: Add Stealthy and Weapon Finesse to the base creature’s feats. If this results in it having the same feat twice, the weremouse gains no additional benefit unless the feat normally can be taken more once, in which case the duplicated feat works as noted in the feat description. This process may give the weremouse more feats than a character of its total Hit Dice would normally be entitled to; if this occurs, any “extra” feats are denoted as bonus feats.

It’s possible that a weremouse cannot meet the prerequisites for all its feats when in humanoid form. If this occurs, the weremouse still has the feats, but cannot use them when in humanoid form. A weremouse receives Iron Will as a bonus feat.

Environment: Same as the base creature. 
Organization: Solitary or pair, sometimes family (3–4), pack (6–10), or troupe (family plus related animals) 
Challenge Rating: By class level or base creature, +2. 
Treasure: Standard. 
Alignment: Often neutral. 
Advancement: By character class. 
Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature +2 (afflicted) or +3 (natural). In addition, a lycanthrope’s character level is increased by the number of racial Hit Dice the base animal has.


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## Shade (Jul 15, 2008)

How is that looking?

Lycanthropes are not my forte', so be extra critical on these fellows.


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## freyar (Jul 15, 2008)

I think it mostly looks fine, though I don't think all weremice have to be natural lycanthropes.

Of course, now that you've typed all that up, I have another idea.  Since all it takes to make a new lycanthrope template is basically to add the new line to the table in the general lycanthrope template, why don't we just do that?  We can also throw in the stats for the dire mouse while we're at it.


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## Shade (Jul 15, 2008)

You mean like so?

Name / Animal Form / Animal or Hybrid Form Ability Modifiers /Preferred Alignment 
Weremouse / Dire Mouse / Dex +6 / Neutral 

Dire Mouse
Small Animal
Hit Dice: 1d8 (4 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), climb 20 ft.
Armor Class: 15 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +1 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/–6
Attack: Bite +4 melee (x-2)
Full Attack: Bite +4 melee (x-2)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +3
Abilities: Str 6, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Skills: Balance +11, Climb +11, Hide +17, Jump +15, Move Silently +13, Swim +11
Feats: Stealthy, Weapon Finesse (B)
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary or family (5–20)
Challenge Rating: 1/4
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 2–3 HD (Small)
Level Adjustment: -

Skills: Dire mice have a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks and a +8 racial bonus on Balance, Climb, Jump, Move Silently, and Swim checks. They can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened. Dire mice use their Dexterity modifier for Climb, Jump, and Swim checks.


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## freyar (Jul 17, 2008)

Right.  Anyone see anything else we'd need to add (besides a line to see the lycanthrope template in the MM/SRD)?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 17, 2008)

Shouldn't weremice also get the Strength penalty in natural or hybrid form, or do lycanthropes only recieve benefits?


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## freyar (Jul 17, 2008)

The way I read it, there should be a penalty.  None of the examples in the SRD happen to have penalties, but the RAW seem to be that you get any modifier.  Want to fudge the dire mouse?


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## Shade (Jul 18, 2008)

Hmmm...the werecat in Monsters of Faerûn (and later Lost Empires of Faerûn) does get a Strength penalty, so apparently negative modifiers are acceptable.  Which is good, since it helps differentiate them even more from the wererat.


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## freyar (Jul 18, 2008)

Definitely go with the penalty, then.


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## Shade (Jul 18, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Freyar - Is that presentation similar to what you were thinking?


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## freyar (Jul 19, 2008)

Yeah, that looks about right.  We should probably do an example, though.


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## Big Mac (Jul 20, 2008)

Shade said:


> OK, since it can spread lycanthropy, it appears to be a natural lycanthrope.




...and...



Shade said:


> Lycanthropes are not my forte', so be extra critical on these fellows.




Ug! We did miss something. These creatures can't possibly be "normal" lycanthropes. Normal lycanthropes are created by starting with a humanoid creature and adding in an animal.

These creatures start with an animal form (a mouse) and move towards a humanoid form. They are more like backward-lycanthropes.

I think we need to turn the standard lycanthrope on its head and swap over the references to base creature and base animal. The base creature, in this case, is a mouse (a creature that is not valid for the standard lycanthrope template) and the base animal is going to need to change to a base humanoid.

I'm not sure if this is going to work, but lets give it a go and see if there are any gaping holes that need filling:

*Reverse Lycanthrope*

Reverse lycanthropes are animals or dire animals who can transform themselves into humanoids. In its natural form, a lycanthrope looks like any other members of its kind, though natural lycanthropes and those who have been afflicted for a long time tend to have or acquire features reminiscent of their humanoid forms. In humanoid form, a lycanthrope resembles a powerful version of the normal humanoid, but on close inspection, its eyes (which often glow red in the dark) show a faint unnatural lack of intelligence. 

Reverse lycanthropy can be spread like a disease. Sometimes a reverse lycanthrope begins life as a normal animal or dire animal who subsequently contracts lycanthropy after being wounded by a lycanthrope or reverse lycanthrope. Such a creature is called an afflicted reverse lycanthrope. Other reverse lycanthropes are born as reverse lycanthropes, and are known as natural lycanthropes.

_*Combat*_
A lycanthrope in its animal (or dire animal) form uses whatever tactics and natural weapons are favored by others of its kind, though it tends to be slightly more aggressive. A lycanthrope possesses the senses of its humanoid form, including scent and low-light vision, and it has a deep empathy for (and ability to communicate with) humanoids of its humanoid form. An afflicted reverse lycanthrope damaged in combat may be overwhelmed by rage, causing it to change to its humanoid form involuntarily. 

A lycanthrope in humanoid form fights like the humanoid it resembles, although its bite carries the disease of lycanthropy. It is preternaturally cunning and strong, and possesses damage reduction that is overcome only by silvered weapons. 

Finally, a natural reverse lycanthrope (or an afflicted reverse lycanthrope that has become aware of its affliction) can assume a hybrid form that is a mix of its animal and humanoid forms. A hybrid has hands and can use weapons, but it can also attack with its teeth and claws. A hybrid can spread lycanthropy with its bite, and it has the same damage reduction that its animal form possesses.

_*Creating A Reverse Lycanthrope*_
"Reverse Lycanthrope" is a template that can be added to any animal or dire animal (referred to hereafter as the base creature). The reverse lycanthrope template can be inherited (for natural reverse lycanthropes) or acquired (for afflicted reverse lycanthropes). Becoming a reverse lycanthrope is very much like multiclassing as a humanoid and gaining the appropriate Hit Dice. 

_*Size and Type*_
The base creature’s type does not change, but the creature gains the shapechanger subtype. The lycanthrope takes on the characteristics of some type of carnivorous or omnivorous creature of the humanoid type (referred to hereafter as the base humanoid). 

This humanoid can be any humanoid race whose size is within one size category of the base animal’s size (Small, Medium, or Large for a Medium base creature). Reverse lycanthropes can also adopt a hybrid shape that combines features of the base creature and the base humanoid. A lycanthrope’s hybrid form is the same size as the base humanoid or the base creature, whichever is larger. 

A lycanthrope uses either the base creature’s or the base humanoid’s statistics and special abilities in addition to those described here. 

_*Hit Dice and Hit Points*_
Same as the base creature plus those of the base humanoid. To calculate total hit points, apply Constitution modifiers according to the score the lycanthrope has in each form. 

_*Speed*_
Same as the base creature or base humanoid, depending on which form the reverse lycanthrope is using. Hybrids use the base creature’s speed.

_*Armor Class*_
The base creature’s natural armor bonus increases by +2 in all forms. In hybrid form, the lycanthrope’s natural armor bonus is equal to the natural armor bonus of the base humanoid or the base creature, whichever is better. 

_*Base Attack/Grapple*_
Add the base attack bonus for the base humanoid to the base attack bonus for the base creature. The reverse lycanthrope’s grapple bonus uses its attack bonus and modifiers for Strength and size depending on the reverse lycanthrope’s form. 

_*Attacks*_
Same as the base creature or base humanoid, depending on which form the reverse lycanthrope is using. A reverse lycanthrope in hybrid form gains two claw attacks and a bite attack as natural weapons. 

These weapons deal damage based on the hybrid form’s size. A hybrid may attack with a weapon and a bite, or may attack with its natural weapons. The bite attack of a hybrid is a secondary attack. 



```
Hybrid Size	Claw	Bite 
Small		1d3	1d4 
Medium		1d4	1d6 
Large		1d6	1d8 
Huge		2d4	2d6
```
 
_*Damage*_
Same as the base creature or base humanoid, depending on which form the reverse lycanthrope is in. 

_*Special Attacks*_
A reverse lycanthrope retains the special attacks of the base creature or base humanoid, depending on which form it is using, and also gains the special attacks described below. 

A reverse lycanthrope’s hybrid form does not gain any special attacks of the base humanoid. A reverse lycanthrope spellcaster cannot cast spells with verbal, somatic, or material components while in animal form, or spells with verbal components while in hybrid form. 

_*Curse of Lycanthropy (Su)*_
Any animal or dire animal hit by a natural reverse lycanthrope's bite attack in humanoid or hybrid form must succeed on a DC 15 Fortutude save or contract reverse lycanthropy. Any humanoid or giant hit by a natural lycanthrope’s bite attack in animal or hybrid form must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or contract lycanthropy. If the victim’s size is not within one size category of the reverse lycanthrope the victim cannot contract reverse lycanthropy (or lycanthropy) from that reverse lycanthrope. Afflicted reverse lycanthropes cannot pass on the curse of lycanthropy. 

_*Special Qualities*_
A lycanthrope retains all the special qualities of the base creature and the base humanoid, and also gains those described below. 

_*Alternate Form (Su)*_
A lycanthrope can assume the form of a specific humanoid (as indicated in its entry). 

Changing to or from humanoid or hybrid form is a standard action. 

A slain reverse lycanthrope reverts to its animal form, although it remains dead. Separated body parts retain their humanoid form, however. 

Afflicted reverse lycanthropes find this ability difficult to control (see Reverse lycanthropy as an Affliction, below), but natural reverse lycanthropes have full control over this power. 

_*Damage Reduction (Ex)*_
An afflicted reverse lycanthrope in humanoid or hybrid form has damage reduction 5/silver. A natural reverse lycanthrope in humanoid or hybrid form has damage reduction 10/silver. 

_*Lycanthropic Empathy (Ex)*_
In any form, reverse lycanthropes can communicate and empathize with normal or giant humanoids of their humanoid form. This gives them a +4 racial bonus on checks when influencing the humanoid’s attitude and allows the communication of simple concepts and (if the humanoid is friendly) commands, such as "friend," "foe," "flee," and "attack." 

_*Low-Light Vision (Ex)*_
A reverse lycanthrope has low-light vision in any form. 

_*Scent (Ex)*_
A reverse lycanthrope has the scent ability in any form. 

_*Base Save Bonuses*_
Add the base save bonuses of the base humanoid to the base save bonuses of the base creature. 

_*Abilities*_
All reverse lycanthropes gain +2 to Wisdom. In addition, when in humanoid form, a lycanthrope’s physical ability scores improve according to its kind, as set out in the table below. These adjustments are equal to the humanoid’s normal ability scores -10 or -11. A reverse lycanthrope in hybrid form modifies its physical ability scores by the same amount. 

In addition, a reverse lycanthrope may also gain an additional ability score increase by virtue of its extra Hit Dice. 

_*Skills*_
A lycanthrope gains skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die of its humanoid form, as if it had multiclassed into the humanoid type. (Humanoid is never its first Hit Die, though, and it does not gain quadruple skill points for any humanoid Hit Die.) Any skill given in the humanoid’s description is a class skill for the reverse lycanthrope’s humanoid levels. In any form, a reverse lycanthrope also has any racial skill bonuses of the base creature and of the base humanoid, although conditional skill bonuses only apply in the associated form. 

_*Feats*_
Add the base humanoid’s feats to the base creature’s. If this results in a reverse lycanthrope having the same feat twice, the reverse lycanthrope gains no additional benefit unless the feat normally can be taken more once, in which case the duplicated feat works as noted in the feat description. This process may give the reverse lycanthrope more feats than a character of its total Hit Dice would normally be entitled to; if this occurs, any "extra" feats are denoted as bonus feats. 

It’s possible that a reverse lycanthrope cannot meet the prerequisites for all its feats when in animal form. If this occurs, the reverse lycanthrope still has the feats, but cannot use them when in animal form. A reverse lycanthrope receives Iron Will as a bonus feat. 

_*Environment*_
Same as either the base creature or base humanoid. 

_*Organization*_
Solitary or pair, sometimes family (3-4), pack (6-10), or troupe (family plus related animals) 

_*Challenge Rating*_
By class level or base creature, modified according to the HD of the base humanoid: 1 HD or 2 HD, +2; 3 HD to 5 HD, +3; 6 HD to 10 HD, +4; 11 HD to 20 HD, +5; 21 or more HD, +6. 

_*Treasure*_
Standard. 

_*Alignment*_
Any. Noble creatures such as dwarves, elves, gnomes and halflings tend to produce good-aligned reverse lycanthropes. Sinister creatures such as drow, durgar, goblins and orcs tend to produce evil-aligned reverse lycanthropes. This is a reflection of how these humanoids are perceived, not any innate quality of the humanoid itself, so the alignment of the humanoid form can be arbitrarily assigned. 

_*Advancement*_
By character class. 

_*Level Adjustment*_
Same as the base creature +2 (afflicted) or +3 (natural). In addition, a reverse lycanthrope’s character level is increased by the number of racial Hit Dice the base humanoid has. 

_*Reverse Lycanthropy As An Affliction*_
When an animal contracts reverse lycanthropy through a reverse lycanthrope’s bite or a lycanthrope's bite (see above), no symptoms appear until the first night of the next full moon. On that night, the afflicted character involuntarily assumes humanoid form and forgets its own identity. The character remains in humanoid form, assuming the appropriate alignment, until the next dawn. 

The animal’s actions during this first episode are dictated by the alignment of its humanoid form. The animal remembers nothing about the entire episode (or subsequent episodes) unless it succeeds on a DC 15 Wisdom check, in which case it becomes aware of its reverse lycanthropic condition. 

Thereafter, the animal is subject to involuntary transformation under the full moon and whenever damaged in combat. It feels an overwhelming rage building up and must succeed on a Control Shape check (see below) to resist changing into humanoid form. Any animal not yet aware of its reverse lycanthropic condition acts according to the alignment of his or her humanoid form. 

An animal with awareness of its condition retains its identity and does not lose control of his actions if he changes. However, each time it changes to its humanoid form, it must make a Will save (DC 15 + number of times he has been in humanoid form) or permanently assume the alignment of his humanoid form in all shapes. 

Once an animal becomes aware of its affliction, it can now voluntarily attempt to change to humanoid or hybrid form, using the appropriate Control Shape check DC. An attempt is a standard action and can be made each round. Any voluntary change to humanoid or hybrid form immediately and permanently changes the character’s alignment to that of the appropriate reverse lycanthrope.

_*Changing Form*_
Changing form is a standard action. If the change is involuntary, the animal performs the change on his next turn following the triggering event. An afflicted animal who is not aware of his condition remains in humanoid form until the next dawn. An afflicted animal who is aware of his or her condition (see above) can try to resume animal form following a change (voluntary or involuntary) with a Control Shape check, but if it fails its check, it remains in humanoid (or hybrid) form until the following dawn. 

_*Curing Reverse Lycanthropy*_
An afflicted animal that eats a sprig of belladonna (also called wolfsbane) within 1 hour of a reverse lycanthrope’s (or lycanthrope's) attack can attempt a DC 20 Fortitude save to shake off the affliction. If a healer administers the herb, use the animal’s save bonus or the healer’s Heal modifier, whichever is higher. The animal gets only one chance, no matter how much belladonna is consumed. The belladonna must be reasonably fresh (picked within the last week). 

However, fresh or not, belladonna is toxic. The animal must succeed on a DC 13 Fortitude save or take 1d6 points of Strength damage. One minute later, the animal must succeed on a second DC 13 save or take an additional 2d6 points of Strength damage. 

A remove disease or heal spell cast by a cleric of 12th level or higher also cures the affliction, provided the animal receives the spell within three days of the reverse lycanthrope’s attack (or the lycanthrope's attack). 

The only other way to remove the affliction is to cast remove curse or break enchantment on the animal during one of the three days of the full moon. After receiving the spell, the animal must succeed on a DC 20 Will save to break the curse (the caster knows if the spell works). If the save fails, the process must be repeated. 

Animals undergoing this cure are often kept bound or confined in cages until the cure takes effect. 

Only afflicted reverse lycanthropes can be cured of reverse lycanthropy.​
I think this will still need a bit of work, but I think it is the correct starting point.


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## freyar (Jul 21, 2008)

Isn't it just that they're in mouse form to start with?  Especially since they refer you to the regular lycanthropy rules.

Just in case, though, there are some other reverse lycanthropes around, like jackalweres, but I think they're mostly unique (don't know of a template).


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 21, 2008)

There is a "therianthrope" template in Tome of Horrors, but I agree with freyar that this is a case of them just being encountered as mice first.


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2008)

Thirded.  They were simply encountered in their animal form first in the adventure.

So, are we OK then?


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## Big Mac (Jul 22, 2008)

Shade said:


> Thirded.  They were simply encountered in their animal form first in the adventure.
> 
> So, are we OK then?




Fair enough. So I've gone down a logical dead end. But something isn't right about these guys.

So they have a humanoid form (that perhaps we haven't seen) and the hybrid form is based on a combination of that and mice.

But you are using a dire mouse as the base animal and that doesn't fit in with the rules. We should be using the mouse itself as the base creature (if this is a standard lycanthrope). Looking at this part of the rules, the size of the base creature (the humanoid) is going to be restricted:

"This animal can be any predator, scavenger, or omnivore whose size is within one size category of the base creature’s size (Small, Medium, or Large for a Medium base creature). Lycanthropes can also adopt a hybrid shape that combines features of the base creature and the base animal. A lycanthrope’s hybrid form is the same size as the base animal or the base creature, whichever is larger."​
Given that mice are very small, we should be keeping the size of the base creature (the humanoid) down to make it compatible with the part of the rules that say it has to be within one size category of a mouse.

Given that we want to build the hybrid form out of a dire mouse, I think we really need to find a humanoid creature that is the same size as the dire mouse. This will comply with the part of the rule thas says "the hybrid form is the same size as the base animal or the base creature, whichever is larger".

I'd say we need to work with a small humanoid and a regular mouse to build a hybrid form that resembles a dire mouse.


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## freyar (Jul 23, 2008)

I think the reason we went with the dire mouse is that a true weremouse is really too weak.  So we're doing the conversion as were-dire-mice.  This is in line with the fact that wererats in the SRD are also really were-dire-rats.  

In this case, dire mice are Small.  According to the lycanthrope template, the base creature and base animal have to be within one size category.  So our base creature (humanoid or giant) can be Tiny, Small, or Medium.   For our example, though, I'd love to have a hobbit halfling weremouse.


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## Shade (Jul 28, 2008)

Exactly what freyar said.  

Anyone want to provide a sample halfling?


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## freyar (Jul 29, 2008)

Heheh, maybe I'll get to it in my copious spare time tonight or tomorrow.


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## Shade (Jul 30, 2008)

Since the wererat uses a 1st-level warrior, lets just take the sample 1st-level halfling warrior from the MM...

Weremouse, Halfling Form
Small Humanoid (Halfling, Shapechanger)
Hit Dice: 1d8+1 plus 1d8 (9 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 18 (+1 size, +1 Dex, +2 natural, +3 studded leather, +1 light shield), touch 12, flat-footed 17
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/–3
Attack: Shortsword +4 melee (1d4/19–20) or light crossbow +3 ranged (1d6/19–20)
Full Attack: Shortsword +4 melee (1d4/19–20) or light crossbow +3 ranged (1d6/19–20)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Halfling traits
Special Qualities: Alternate form, halfling traits, mouse empathy, low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +4, Will +3
Abilities: Str 11, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 8
Skills: Balance +9, Climb +2, Hide +10, Jump +4, Listen +3, Move Silently +13, Swim +8
Feats: Stealthy, Weapon Finesse (B), Weapon Focus (shortsword)
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary, pair, family (6–10), or troupe (2–5 plus 5–8 dire mice)
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually neutral
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +3

Weremouse, Mouse Form
Small Humanoid (Halfling, Shapechanger)
Hit Dice: 1d8+1 plus 1d8 (9 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), climb 20 ft.
Armor Class: 18 (+1 size, +4 Dex, +3 natural), touch 15, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/–5
Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d3-2)
Full Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d3-2)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Curse of lycanthropy
Special Qualities: Alternate form, damage reduction 10/silver, mouse empathy, low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +3
Abilities: Str 7, Dex 19, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 8
Skills: Balance +12, Climb +14, Hide +13, Jump +18, Listen +3, Move Silently +16, Swim +12
Feats: Stealthy, Weapon Finesse (B), Weapon Focus (shortsword)
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary, pair, family (6–10), or troupe (2–5 plus 5–8 dire mice)
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually neutral
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +3

Weremouse, Hybrid Form
Small Humanoid (Halfling, Shapechanger)
Hit Dice: 1d8+1 plus 1d8 (9 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 18 (+1 size, +4 Dex, +3 natural), touch 15, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/–7
Attack: Shortsword +7 melee (1d4-2/19–20) or claw +6 melee (1d3-2) or light crossbow +6 ranged (1d6/19–20)
Full Attack: Shortsword +7 melee (1d4-2/19–20) and bite +1 melee (1d4-2); or two claws +6 melee (1d3-2) and bite +1 melee (1d4-2); or light crossbow +6 ranged (1d6/19–20)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Curse of lycanthropy
Special Qualities: Alternate form, damage reduction 10/silver, mouse empathy, low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +3
Abilities: Str 7, Dex 19, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 8
Skills: Balance +12, Climb +6, Hide +13, Jump +8, Listen +3, Move Silently +16, Swim +12
Feats: Stealthy, Weapon Finesse (B), Weapon Focus (shortsword)
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary, pair, family (6–10), or troupe (2–5 plus 5–8 dire mice)
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually neutral
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +3

Alternate Form (Su): A weremouse can assume a bipedal hybrid form or the form of a dire mouse.

Curse of Lycanthropy (Su): Any humanoid or giant hit by a weremouse's bite attack in animal or hybrid form must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or contract lycanthropy. 

Mouse Empathy (Ex): Communicate with mice and dire mice, and +4 racial bonus on Charisma-based checks against mice and dire mice.

Skills: A weremouse in any form has a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks and a +8 racial bonus on Balance, Jump, Move Silently, and Swim checks. A weremouse in rat or hybrid form uses its Dexterity modifier for Climb, Jump, and Swim checks. In mouse form, it has a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened.

Feats: Weremice gain Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat.

The weremouse presented here is based on a 1st-level halfling warrior who is a natural lycanthrope, using the following base ability scores: Str 11, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8.


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## freyar (Jul 30, 2008)

Ok, ok, you beat me to it!  Looks good on a quick glance over...


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## Shade (Jul 31, 2008)

Updated.

Anything else?


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## freyar (Jul 31, 2008)

Looks pretty good from here.


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## Shade (Jul 31, 2008)

*China Dolls*

Propped against the walls of this chamber are 12 large bags tied with red ribbons; one has a label which reads 'Merry Christmas, Billy' in Common. Each bag contains a very pretty, dark-eyed china doll -- these are the dolls that Nurk wanted Santa Claus to deliver. In the darkness of the bags the dolls are silent and harmless. If exposed to light, the dolls will become animated, attacking with their vicious teeth and knife-like nails. The dolls will continue to attack until they are destroyed or returned to a darkened environment. [...]

12 China Dolls: AC 4; MV 6"; HD 3; hp 20 each; #AT 3; D 1-4/1-3/1-3; SD edged and piercing weapons inflict only 1 point of damage, immune to mind-influencing spells; AL N; S S (3' tall); 80 xp each.

Originally appeared in Imagine Magazine #21 (1984).



Tiny constructs?

DR x/bludgeoning?

Light-Activated (Su):  A china doll is activated by light.  In areas of even shadowy illumination, a china doll functions normally.  If exposed to complete darkness, a china doll reverts to an inanimate state, and is treated as an object with hardness x and x hit points.

Str 10, Dex 18, Con -, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 1?


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## freyar (Jul 31, 2008)

Yes, DR 5, good (hardness 2 just better than glass, hp=normal hp), stats look good.  

2 claws and a bite, seems like.

Anything interesting we can think to do with these?


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## Shade (Aug 1, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

We could give them "death throes" that throw shards of porcelain in adjacent areas.


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## freyar (Aug 1, 2008)

Let's give them Multiattack as a bonus feat.

I could go with Explosive Destruction (Ex) or something as long as no one else thinks we're getting too far from the original intent.   Maybe 2d4 piercing damage in a 5ft radius, Ref save half?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 1, 2008)

I like them exploding. 

I also feel weird about them being "China" dolls in a world without a China. Porcelain, perhaps?


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## Shade (Aug 1, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> I also feel weird about them being "China" dolls in a world without a China. Porcelain, perhaps?




Yeah, I got that vibe, too.  I'll rename 'em porcelain dolls.


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## Big Mac (Aug 2, 2008)

Nice work with the weremouse. 

I like what you have done with the china dolls.



freyar said:


> Let's give them Multiattack as a bonus feat.
> 
> I could go with Explosive Destruction (Ex) or something as long as no one else thinks we're getting too far from the original intent.   Maybe 2d4 piercing damage in a 5ft radius, Ref save half?




I'd go with this. Death Throes is too similar to the draconian from Dragonlance, but Explosive Destruction could be based on these constructs being pressurised (or something like that).

I like demiurge's suggestion for a name change. I'd say that the word porcelain should be used within the Explosive Destruction (Ex) ability.


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## freyar (Aug 3, 2008)

Porcelain Explosion, maybe?


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## Big Mac (Aug 3, 2008)

freyar said:


> Porcelain Explosion, maybe?




I meant within the text rather than in the title.


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## Shade (Aug 4, 2008)

Death Throes is a fairly common term used for similar monster abilities.  See balor, frost worm, bladerager troll, and so forth.

Of course, since a construct doesn't "die", I'm fine with a name change.  But not Porcelain Explosion...that reminds me of a bad experience in the bathroom!


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## freyar (Aug 4, 2008)

Shade said:


> Of course, since a construct doesn't "die", I'm fine with a name change.  But not Porcelain Explosion...that reminds me of a bad experience in the bathroom!




Worse things have happened. 

I'm sure there are constructs with similar abilities that we could use the name from.  Can you think of any?


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## Shade (Aug 4, 2008)

I can't think of any off the top of my head, but "Explosive Destruction" works for me.

Updated.

Organization: Solitary or x (2-12)

CR 2?

A porcelain doll is 3 feet tall and weighs x pounds.


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## freyar (Aug 5, 2008)

Solitary or Package?

I almost think CR 3.  Maybe a tough CR 2.  Anyone else?

5-10lb?

To create: porcelain & tints costing 200 gp?  DC 18 craft (toymaking) check?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 5, 2008)

Craft either toymaking or pottery. I like package as their group noun.

And CR 2. They're not that tough.


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## Shade (Aug 5, 2008)

Updated.

Light and shatter as prereq spells?

It looks like caster level 5th is about par for CR 2-3 golems.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 6, 2008)

Light, shatter, mending?


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2008)

Sounds good.

Updated.

Do the numbers look correct on the price, cost, and XP?


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## freyar (Aug 6, 2008)

Numbers look right to me, so I guess it's done!


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2008)

Great!

*A'azzatz*

Confined within a pentacle drawn around the aft mast of the ship, bound with iron chains, and with the mast passing through his body is A'azzatz, a demon. Summoned by Dyvim Ka'aand and then trapped within this room, it is he that drives the Iron Galleon between the worlds. The air in this chamber is alive with the crackling of his energy, and anyone entering this room will barely be able to discern his shape, save where the Chaos symbol is drawn upon his brow, beneath which black pits mark his eyes and mouth.

A'azzatz hates -- although he [sic] virtually insensate -- everything and everybody. His sole pleasure is consuming the life force of the occasional prisoner Dyvim Ka'aand gives to him, and he will attack anyone who comes within his limited reach.

A'azzatz: AC -1; MV 0" (18"); HD 12; hp 60; #AT 1; D 2-20; SA life draining, slow; SD vulnerable only to iron weapons, all others do no damage whatsoever; Int Non; AL CE; Size L (10' tall); xp 4660; THAC0 9; special monster.

A'azzatz's touch drains 1 point of strength in addition to any other damage caused, and the victim must save vs paralyzation or suffer the effects of a slow spell as well. For each strength point so drained, A'azzatz gains 10 hit points. Lost strength points are recovered at the rate of one per turn.

Originally appeared in Imagine Magazine #22 (1985).


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2008)

Tanar'ri, obyrith, or non-classified demon?


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## freyar (Aug 6, 2008)

Doesn't sound like an obyrith, and I could go either way on tanar'ri vs unclassified.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 7, 2008)

Unclassified, let's say.


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## Shade (Aug 8, 2008)

Untyped it is.

Comparable 12-HD demons:

Glabrezu (H): Str 31, Dex 10, Con 31, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 20
Ghour (H): Str 32, Dex 8, Con 26, Int 15, Wis 13, Cha 15
Vathugu (L): Str 28, Dex 12, Con 34, Int 12, Wis 17, Cha 20
Kelvezu (M): Str 21, Dex 31, Con 16, Int 17, Wis 16, Cha 16


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## freyar (Aug 9, 2008)

Maybe something like Str 26, Dex 16, Con 26 for physical.  (Not that I have any great justification. )  Not sure what to do about mental stats.  The original text says Int Non, but I expect that's just due to being captured and bound ("insensate").  Any thoughts?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 9, 2008)

Let's give him Int 12. A bit above human, but nothing special.


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## freyar (Aug 9, 2008)

Something like Str 26, Dex 17, Con 26, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 13?


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## Shade (Aug 18, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.



> A'azzatz hates -- although he [sic] virtually insensate -- everything and everybody. His sole pleasure is consuming the life force of the occasional prisoner Dyvim Ka'aand gives to him, and he will attack anyone who comes within his limited reach.




I assume the "consuming life force" comes from the Str drain?



> #AT 1; D 2-20




I'm not sure what that attack may be.  Thoughts?  Maybe negative energy?



> SA life draining, slow




See below.



> SD vulnerable only to iron weapons, all others do no damage whatsoever



; 

DR 15/cold iron?



> A'azzatz's touch drains 1 point of strength in addition to any other damage caused, and the victim must save vs paralyzation or suffer the effects of a slow spell as well. For each strength point so drained, A'azzatz gains 10 hit points. Lost strength points are recovered at the rate of one per turn.




Strength Drain (Su): A'azzatz's touch deals 1 point of Strength drain to a living foe. A creature reduced to Strength 0 by A'azzatz dies. This is a negative energy effect.  For each point of Strength drained, A'azzatz gains 10 temporary hit points.

Slow (Su):  Any creature drained of at least 1 point of Strength by A'azzatz must succeed on a DC X Fortitude(?) save or be slowed (as the spell) for x minutes (or maybe until the Strength is restored?)


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## freyar (Aug 18, 2008)

Str Drain, Slow, and DR look good.  Maybe make the attack a claw that does 1d6+Str+1d10 negative energy?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 19, 2008)

Claw? I was thinking gore or bite, since he only gets one of them.


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## freyar (Aug 19, 2008)

Well, I was actually thinking 2 claws I guess, but I could go with bite.


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## Shade (Aug 19, 2008)

We could go with claws and bite.  Since he's currently trapped, I'm envisioning his arms bound, leaving only the bite.   We should probably stat him up in his unbound state, then mention his current predicament within the flavor text.   Thoughts?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 19, 2008)

Sounds good to me.


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## freyar (Aug 19, 2008)

Yeah, definitely stat up the unbound version.  Another idea on the attacks: make the claws the Str drain but give negative energy damage to the bite.


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## Shade (Aug 22, 2008)

1d6 for claws and 1d12 for bite?  How much negative energy damage?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 22, 2008)

1d8+Cha modifier, save for half?


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## freyar (Aug 22, 2008)

Those damage values sound about right.


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## Shade (Aug 22, 2008)

Updated.

Wanna give him some sort of negative energy affinity/protection?


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## freyar (Aug 22, 2008)

Hmm, healed by negative energy, damaged by positive?  It's a little odd for a demon, but I could go for it.


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## Shade (Sep 3, 2008)

Updated.

Thoughts on this?

Slow (Su): Any creature drained of at least 1 point of Strength by A'azzatz must succeed on a DC 24 Fortitude save or be slowed (as the spell) for x minutes (or maybe until the Strength is restored?). The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## freyar (Sep 3, 2008)

I'd say 1 minute, maybe 2.  He's not that powerful.  

Feats: Ability Focus (soul bite), Power Attack, Improved Critical (bite), Cleave, Multiattack?


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## Shade (Sep 3, 2008)

Those feats look reasonable.   Thoughts on eliminating the slowed condition if Str is restored?


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## freyar (Sep 3, 2008)

Shade said:


> Those feats look reasonable.   Thoughts on eliminating the slowed condition if Str is restored?




I'd say we could do that, if Str is restored before the minute is up.  But I wouldn't want to make someone wait until they're back to full Str; that might take a while, and I don't think he's quite that tough.


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## Shade (Sep 4, 2008)

freyar said:


> I'd say we could do that, if Str is restored before the minute is up.  But I wouldn't want to make someone wait until they're back to full Str; that might take a while, and I don't think he's quite that tough.




Yeah, that was what I was thinking.

Updated.

Do we want to give him any other abilities, or shall we move on to skills and feats?


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## freyar (Sep 4, 2008)

Unless he needs something to justify whatever CR we give him, let's start on the skills.  (I could eventually see adding an SLA or two if we want.)  How about Bluff, Climb, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Spot, Tumble?  I see him mostly as a pretty mobile bruiser type.  I also thought about Escape Artist, but that doesn't go so well with being bound up like he is.


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## Shade (Sep 4, 2008)

Updated.

Treasure: Standard?

Advancement: None? (Since he's unique)


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## freyar (Sep 4, 2008)

Agreed.  Speaks Abyssal, weighs 800 lb?  (He's a bit stronger and maybe bulkier therefore than an ogre.)  CR9?


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## Shade (Sep 8, 2008)

Let's go with the demonic standard Abyssal, Celestial, and Draconic.

Weight looks good.

Anything left but flavor text?


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## freyar (Sep 8, 2008)

I think that's it.


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## Shade (Sep 8, 2008)

Updated with flavor text.

Look OK?


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## freyar (Sep 9, 2008)

Looks good!


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## Shade (Sep 9, 2008)

Next!

*Full Warhorse*
FREQUENCY: Very rare
No APPEARING: 1
ARMOUR CLASS: 7
MOVE: 15"
HIT DICE: 5+3
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
No of ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE: 1-10/1-10/1-4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENCES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Animal
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defence Modes: Nil
LEVEL/XP VALUE: IV /150 + 6 per hit point

The full warhorse is the natural mount of the mounted fighter - though very few ever have the chance to own one. They are the result of the finest stock selection and breeding between ordinary heavy horses, so rare that barely one foal in five hundred bred in such a way will be a young full warhorse. Very few horsebreeders have acquired the skill and knowledge to improve on those odds, and such men and women become very rich indeed, serving great princes and kings. There are those who sell these powerful mounts to anyone who has the requisite influence and wealth to obtain one. The price of a full warhorse obtained in such a way is never less than 1500gp, and can be more in times of war or civil unrest.

In addition, the warhorse must then be trained to work with its new owner. This takes at least six weeks of intensive work, and again, the opportunities are very rare. Most trainers capable of such work are already in the service of wealthy masters, and the few prepared to be hired for such work will demand 1800gp for a six week 'course'.

Once trained, the full warhorse will recognize only one rider. It will resist anyone who attempts to mount it, lead it away or whatever, even if it recognizes the person as a friend of its owner.

In practice, most player characters who manage to obtain one of these steeds will be cavaliers who perform some great service to their patron - provided the patron can afford the price, or have a stockbreeder on their staff. Training might be included in the reward. Often, a cavalier can be persuaded to accept a full warhorse, fully trained, in exchange for a reward or a 'gift' of twice the value. If an opportunity occurs, a cavalier should be prepared to do almost anything to obtain one.

When its owner dies, a surviving full warhorse can only be retrained 10% of the time. There is a further 15% chance that it will go wild, attacking all creatures it meets, until its inevitable demise. In the remaining 75% of cases, the warhorse merely lapses into the deepest despair, dying 1-8 days after the loss of its rider. Similar risks are run when an owner voluntarily abandons a warhorse for any period longer than a month. In such circumstances there is a 50% chance per month that the horse will pine away.

A cavalier who wishes to pass on his full warhorse, or to sell it, will find its loyalty a hindrance. Most knowledgeable horsedealers will pay only a fraction of the price (150gp). Warhorses can only be retrained in 25% of cases, and both buyer and seller must be involved in the process, which will take 10 weeks. A trainer will be required as well, at a cost of 4000gp, the money being due regardless of whether or not the retraining is successful.

(From "Horse Combat" by Chris Felton, Imagine Magazine #11, February 1984.)


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## Shade (Sep 9, 2008)

Advance a heavy warhorse to 5 HD and make slight ability score adjustments?

Edit:  It looks like the heavy warhorse has +2 Strength over the light warhorse.  Otherwise, ability scores are the same.

It also looks like damage increases by one die between light and heavy.  Following that progression, we'd have d8 for the hooves and d6 for the bite.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 9, 2008)

We should give them some other abilities to make them appealing to heavily armored fighters, like free Armor Proficiency feats or increased carrying capacity (although with their strength, they should have a pretty good carrying capacity already).


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## freyar (Sep 10, 2008)

I like bonus Armor Proficiency.  Maybe also an SA that they can learn additional tricks beyond the Fight general purpose described in Handle Animal?


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## Shade (Sep 10, 2008)

Excellent suggestions.

Here's something from the warbeast template...

Combative Mount (Ex): A rider on a trained warbeast mount gets a +2 circumstance bonus on all Ride checks. A trained warbeast is proficient with light, medium, and heavy armor.


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## freyar (Sep 10, 2008)

Ah, yes, I like that!  Is there a funny thing with the warbeast template that you can't apply it to a horse (but then it does all kinds of things a warhorse doesn't get)?

Anyway, how does this look with these suggestions?  I guess the main other thing to do is put in info about training.


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## Shade (Sep 10, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Its original speed converts to 40 feet, which is slower than a heavy warhorse.  However, the heavy warhorse is slower than a light warhorse, so this may be OK.  Do we want to go 40 feet, or 50 like the heavy warhorse?


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## freyar (Sep 11, 2008)

Umm, I'm inclined to go with 50 ft.  They should be pretty valuable.

If you're not opposed, I like giving them all the armor proficiencies as bonus feats (does that make a difference for the skills a horse will use?) like demiurge suggested.


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## Shade (Sep 11, 2008)

freyar said:


> If you're not opposed, I like giving them all the armor proficiencies as bonus feats (does that make a difference for the skills a horse will use?) like demiurge suggested.




Combative Mount has that covered, doesn't it?


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## freyar (Sep 11, 2008)

Oops, missed that. 

For training: Do we want to retain the bit about requiring training for particular owners?  Also, do we want to allow them to learn extra tricks?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 12, 2008)

Perhaps they only move at 40 feet, but can go at full speed even when heavily armored?


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## freyar (Sep 12, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Perhaps they only move at 40 feet, but can go at full speed even when heavily armored?



Like a dwarf.  Yeah, I could go for that if Shade agrees.


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## Shade (Sep 12, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Perhaps they only move at 40 feet, but can go at full speed even when heavily armored?




Excellent idea!

The dwarf ability doesn't have a name.  How's this?

Armored Destrier (Ex):  A full warhorse can move at its base speed even when wearing medium or heavy barding or when carrying a medium or heavy load.


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## freyar (Sep 12, 2008)

Looks good to me.



> In addition, the warhorse must then be trained to work with its new owner. This takes at least six weeks of intensive work, and again, the opportunities are very rare. Most trainers capable of such work are already in the service of wealthy masters, and the few prepared to be hired for such work will demand 1800gp for a six week 'course'.
> 
> Once trained, the full warhorse will recognize only one rider. It will resist anyone who attempts to mount it, lead it away or whatever, even if it recognizes the person as a friend of its owner.



So we have a cost for training one.  Should we just put the recognition of a single rider as flavor?


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## Shade (Sep 12, 2008)

Just a thought, but for simplicity's sake, could we just state that they are treated as magical beasts for the purposes of training them?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 12, 2008)

Sounds good. Much simpler.


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## freyar (Sep 13, 2008)

Works for me, too.


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2008)

Updated.

How do we want to handle the additional tricks?



> Combat Riding (DC 20): An animal trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel. Training an animal for combat riding takes six weeks. You may also “upgrade” an animal trained for riding to one trained for combat riding by spending three weeks and making a successful DC 20 Handle Animal check. The new general purpose and tricks completely replace the animal’s previous purpose and any tricks it once knew. Warhorses and riding dogs are already trained to bear riders into combat, and they don’t require any additional training for this purpose.


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## freyar (Sep 15, 2008)

Why don't we put in the following paragraph?

A full warhorse available for purchase is usually already trained for the combat riding special purpose, but it requires additional training to familiarize itself with its rider, which takes 3 weeks (?).  During this time, a full warhorse can learn one additional trick (beyond the six an animal of Int 2 is normally able to learn).


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2008)

I like it.


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## Shade (Sep 16, 2008)

Updated.  Finished?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 16, 2008)

Looks done to me.


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## freyar (Sep 17, 2008)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Finished?



Yup.


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## Shade (Sep 19, 2008)

In honor of International Talk Like a Pirate Day...

*Undead Parrot*

The leader of the zombies -- dressed in a faded blue coat and a torn tricorne hat -- has the remains of a parrot riding on one shoulder. This unnatural bird will launch itself into the attack as soon as it is able.

1 undead parrot: AC 8; MV 0"; HD 1-1; hp 6; #AT 1; D 1-2/round; SA Leap 3"; SD Cannot be turned, needs magical or silver weapons to hit, immune to electrical attacks; Int Non; AL N; Size S; xp 15; THAC0 2-; special monster

This ex-parrot cannot fly or move itself about properly. It attacks by leaping at a victim and attaching itself with its claws (should it miss, it falls to the grounf and is stunned for 1 melee round while it re-orientates for the next attack). Once attached, it tears at its victim with its beak, automatically causing 1-2 points of damage.

Originally appeared in Imagine Magazine #26 (1985)


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## Shade (Sep 19, 2008)

Since there are no parrot stats, maybe start with raven stats?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 19, 2008)

Sounds reasonable. Attach seems like the primary mechanic here.


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## Shade (Sep 19, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Should the leap be a supernatural ability, or simply a very high racial bonus on Jump checks?

Should the beak attack be a special ability?


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## freyar (Sep 21, 2008)

Looks good so far!

I'd say that the beak attack should be part of attach.  Each round it's attached, it does 1d2 damage (or maybe we should put the Str penalty there).

Let's just give it a racial bonus to Jump checks.  

Maybe keep the DR to 1 or 2?


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2008)

Updated.

Does the bite mechanic within attach look OK?

Challenge Rating: 1/2?

Advancement: None?


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## freyar (Sep 25, 2008)

Those suggestions sound good, and I think it's done with that.

Edit: or should we include a write-up of undead parrots as familiars?


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## Shade (Sep 25, 2008)

Hmm...since it's mindless, I'm thinking "no" for familar.  Thoughts?


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## freyar (Sep 25, 2008)

Oh, yeah, right.


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## Shade (Sep 25, 2008)

I think we're down to 1 creature for this thread!

"Inside the temple contains benches and a small altar behind which is an alabaster statue of a partridge (a bird considered holy by the islanders). Should anyone damage or desecrate the temple this statue will begin to grow (up to a maximum of 7 feet tall). If the desecration continues the statue will change into a giant partridge and attack the offenders, reverting back to its statue-state once the offenders are dealt with. The statue is similar to a figurine of wondrous power, but it cannot be removed from the temple in its statue form (moving the statue counts as an act of desecration), and if it is forced to leave the temple in partridge form it will crumble into alabaster dust.

1 *giant partridge*: AC 7; MV 3"/24"; HD 4; hp 20; #AT 3; D 1-3/1-3/2-8; 140xp; AL Nn; S M.

From "Tir Nan Og", by Chris Barlow, Imagine #17, August 1984


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## Echohawk (Sep 26, 2008)

Shade said:


> I think we're down to 1 creature for this thread!



Yes, just one unconverted Imagine creature left. (Excluding a handful of unique unconverted critters, that is  )


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## Shade (Sep 26, 2008)

Echohawk said:


> Yes, just one unconverted Imagine creature left. (Excluding a handful of unique unconverted critters, that is  )




Yeah, I forgot about Frosty the Snowman and the sandwich monster.


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## freyar (Sep 26, 2008)

Hmmm, a Medium partridge.  Sounds a little strange.  Compared to the giant eagle and giant owl, which both have 4HD also, maybe we want to bump this to Large?


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## Shade (Sep 26, 2008)

Sure, Large is fine.  

Let's figure out ability scores:

Giant Eagle: Str 18, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10
Giant Owl: Str 18, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10
Giant Raven: Str 16, Dex 19, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 10


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## freyar (Sep 26, 2008)

I'm going to guess that this is a bit on the weak side, and partridges always seem awkward to me.  Maybe Str 15, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 11 and make it a magical beast?


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## Shade (Sep 26, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Sep 26, 2008)

Let's change "Giant owls speak x" to "Giant partridges speak Common or Sylvan."

Definitely max Spot and Listen.  I'm going to go with Alertness (like a partridge probably would have) and Multiattack, since it's a guard-partridge.

Flock (3d4)?

Advancement: 5-6 HD (Large), 7-9 HD (Huge)?

Tactics: Giant partridges found in the wild typically flee rather than fight.  However, if cornered or magically compelled to fight, the partridge will attack in wild flurry of beak and feathers.

Something comes to mind: want to change the claws to wing buffets?


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## Shade (Sep 26, 2008)

Updated.

CR 3 like the giant eagle and owl?

A typical giant partridge stands about 7 feet tall, has a wingspan of up to x feet, and resembles its smaller cousins in nearly every way, except size.


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## freyar (Sep 28, 2008)

Um, 15 ft wingspan (a bit less than the other giant birds)?

Damage output seems maybe a little low and same with AC.  Could it be a tough CR 2?  Your call.


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## Shade (Sep 29, 2008)

freyar said:


> Damage output seems maybe a little low and same with AC.  Could it be a tough CR 2?  Your call.




I think so.  That helps lessen the glut of CR 3 giant avians.  

Updated.  All done?


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## freyar (Sep 29, 2008)

Looks good to me.


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## Shade (Nov 22, 2008)

"[...] Only one cell is occupied, by a very corpulent turkey -- the yeti's Christmas dinner.

The turkey will plead with the adventurers to save him from the dinner table. If they agree, he will tell them where the yeti hides his treasure [...]. Getting the turkey out will not be easy since the cell door is only 3 feet in width and the turkey is 3' 6" wide even when he breathes out.

The turkey will squeal loudly (this will not attract anyone's attention, but don't tell the players that) at any attempt to pull it through the door (roll as though attempting to break down a door). Chipping away enough ice to get him out will take 1 turn. Should the players get him out he will not stop complainant about all the hardships he has had to endure.

The Turkey: AC 10 (tender); MV 3"; HD 4; hp 25; #AT 1; D 1-2; SA Boredom, save vs. spells at +2 or fall asleep for 5 rounds due to the extreme dullness of the turkey's conversation; AL N; S Fat; xp 110.

Originally appeared in Imagine Magazine #21.


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## freyar (Nov 22, 2008)

Could almost be an awakened wild turkey.  Want to treat him like that with a few embellishments?


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 22, 2008)

I think that sounds reasonable. Perhaps with bard levels, with boredom = sleep spells?


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## freyar (Nov 22, 2008)

That would work.  If we start with our wild turkey and awaken it, we get
Small Magical Beast (augmented animal)
3d10 (16 hp) (if awaken changes HD size -- ??) 
Str 3, Dex 11, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 13
Add one bard level?


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## Shade (Nov 24, 2008)

That all sounds pretty good.  Do we want to go with a bard level, or give it inherent bard spellcasting?

Also, I think we'll need a better name for it than "The Turkey".  Maybe "Tom Turkey"?  



> An awakened tree or animal can speak one language that you know, plus one additional language that you know per point of Intelligence bonus (if any).




It looks like it may know several languages.


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## GrayLinnorm (Nov 24, 2008)

Since the original had 25 hp and the awakened tukey only has 16 hp, I'd suggest giving it levels in bard.


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## Echohawk (Nov 24, 2008)

freyar said:


> Small Magical Beast (augmented animal)



Is this turkey definitely small rather than medium? 3' 6" wide makes for a *really* big turkey. Turkeys are usually also taller than they are wide, so I'm thinking this turkey is at least 5' tall.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 24, 2008)

Advancing the turkey to Medium before awakening and giving it bard levels would be interesting.


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## freyar (Nov 24, 2008)

We're going to end up with more than 4HD if we advance to Medium, but I'm all for it. We might also tack on extra bard levels.


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## Shade (Nov 25, 2008)

So rather than awakening a normal turkey, shall we just approach this as a unique magical beast?  We can still use the turkey as the base.   Something like...

"The Turkey"
Medium Magial Beast
Hit Dice: 4d10+4 (26 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 10 ft. (2 squares), fly 40 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 10, touch 10, flat-footed 10
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+2
Attack: Claw +4 melee (1d6-2)
Full Attack: 2 claws +4 melee (1d6-2) and beak -1 melee (1d3-2)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Spells
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +1
Abilities: Str 7, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 13
Skills: 14
Feats: Alertness, Weapon Finesse (B), 1 more
Environment: Cold or temperate forests
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: x
Level Adjustment: -

Spells: "The turkey" casts spells as a xth-level bard.
Typical Bard Spells Known (x/x; save DC 11 + spell level): 0—x; 1st—x.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 25, 2008)

Casts spells as a 3rd level bard, perhaps? Sounds good to me.


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## Shade (Nov 25, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Suggested spells?


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## GrayLinnorm (Nov 25, 2008)

Lullaby, daze, and sleep sound appropriate.


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## Shade (Nov 25, 2008)

Sounds good.  We need 4 more 0-level and two more 1st-level.

Maybe hypnotism and ventriloquism for the 1st-level spells?


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 25, 2008)

Hypnotism and hideous laughter for the 1st level spells.

Ghost sound, light, prestidigitation and mage hand.

For feats, want to give him Skill Focus (concentration) and Spell Focus (enchantment)?


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## freyar (Nov 25, 2008)

All that sounds good.

How about ghost sound, know direction, dancing lights, prestidigitation?

Edit: ninjaed by demiurge!  We're thinking along the same lines for the 0th level spells, so I can go either way.

Drop Alertness from the feats, then?


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## Shade (Nov 25, 2008)

Updated.

Thoughts on a better name?

Split ranks between Concentration, Listen, and Spot?


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## freyar (Nov 26, 2008)

Concentration 6, Listen 4, Spot 4?

Bardic Turkey?  Somehow that seems silly.


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## Shade (Nov 26, 2008)

Hmmm...I'm still leaning towards "Tom Turkey", even if it is ridiculous.  

Anyone else?

Updated with the suggested skills.



> Getting the turkey out will not be easy since the cell door is only 3 feet in width and the turkey is 3' 6" wide even when he breathes out.




Perhaps the opposite of the narrow berth ability?

Challenge Rating: x

"The Turkey" is x feet long and weighs x pounds.

"The Turkey" speaks x.


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## freyar (Nov 26, 2008)

Tom Turkey is ok, too.  I can't think of anything good for this.

Wide Berth (Ex): "The Turkey" is quite inflexible, having been fattened for dining, and is incapable of squeezing.  
?

CR 1 I think.  His hp are a bit high, but defense and damage output are small.  And spell DCs aren't very high either.

Maybe no advancement.  Thoughts?


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 26, 2008)

CR 2. His enchantment spells have a DC of 13--someone's going to fail them at low levels.


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## freyar (Nov 26, 2008)

Fair enough.  We should probably mention in the spell list that his enchantment spells have a bumped DC due to SF; I was forgetting that.


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## Shade (Nov 26, 2008)

Updated.

Tom Turkey is x feet long and weighs x pounds.

Tom Turkey speaks x.

I'm thinking we should retool his skills a bit to allow for Diplomacy and possibly Bluff and Sense Motive.  Thoughts?


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## freyar (Nov 27, 2008)

Why not swap Spot and Listen for Diplomacy and Sense Motive?

4 ft long, 75 lb?  I'm imagining him as pretty spherical.  Or we could go 5 ft.


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## Shade (Nov 27, 2008)

Updated.

Is this turkey _done_?


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## freyar (Nov 27, 2008)

I think the yeti is ready to bake him.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 27, 2008)

Stick a fork in him--he's done!


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2008)

Here's another one from the same issue for this month's holiday.  

Frost is a happy and mischievous creature whose only aim in life is to have lots of (relatively) harmless fun -- throwing snowballs (which cause no damage) at passing strangers is just his way of introducing himself. He will do this from a place of concealment. When he finally shows himself he is a large, happy looking snowman dressed in a tall hat and scarf, carrying an old broom. Frosty should be treated as having a charisma of 17.

He will readily aid anyone in distress or those who fight against evil, but he will have no part in hunting his friend the yeti. On the other hand, Frosty is not very friendly with the Snow Dwarf, because he knows the dwarf cheats at cards.

*Frosty the Snowman:* AC 3 (wet); MV 9"; HD 5; hp 32; #AT 1; SA see below; SD immune to cold-based attacks, double damage from fire-based attacks; AL CG; S L (8' tall); 250xp.

Frosty can control weather (as the 7th level clerical spell) once per day. He can also hide in snow (cf hide in shadows) 80% of the time, becoming totally invisible at distances greater than 10 feet.

Frosty's scraf acts a the equivalent of a rope of entanglement and his tall hat is also magical -- it raises charisma by 1 or to 17, whichever is the most advantageous. His broom is a wand of snowballs which can project a snowball equivalent to a fireball. This is the only magical function that the broom can perform, but it can still be used as a broom. It has 24 charges.

Originally appeared in Imagine Magazine #21 (1984).


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2008)

We could give him rejuvenation as long as the hat is placed upon a new "snowbody".


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 8, 2008)

Lets have him be able to throw snowballs that deal damage if he so chooses (he puts rocks in them, the scamp).


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2008)

Good ideas all.  But no penalty for nonlethal damage from the snowballs. 

Broom is a wand of energy substituted fireball?


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2008)

Sounds like fun!  Let's get the basics going...

"Similar" creatures:
Ice Golem: Str 27, Dex 9, Con -, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 1
Immoth: Str 18, Dex 16, Con 19, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 21
Chraal: Str 21, Dex 11, Con 20, Int 9, Wis 10, Cha 14
Large Ice Paraelemental: Str 14, Dex 21, Con 16, Int 6, Wis 11, Cha 11

In and odd twist, Cha was listed as 17, but no Int was given.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 9, 2008)

Frosty always struck me as a little dim, although that might be a poor Wisdom score.


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2008)

Let's give him Int 10-11 and Wis 6-8.  Don't see too many critters like that.  Str 14, Dex 11, Con 16 going on the low end?


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2008)

Construct?


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2008)

Elemental?  I could even go Outsider (native).


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 9, 2008)

Native outsider!


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

I didn't fill in natural armor yet in case we wanted to have the hat provide a deflection or armor bonus.


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

1d6+Str damage on the snowballs, lethal or nonlethal?  Should we bump Dex a little to get him a bit better at tossing?  Or give him a racial bonus like halflings?


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2008)

Wikipedia just changed my whole outlook on Frosty!



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> In 1972, Walter Rollins admitted in an interview with Life magazine that initially the concept of Frosty the Snowman was written as a cautionary tale pertaining to the scare of "nuclear winter" and initially it was said that nuclear fallout mixed with the snow and children's dreams of a world without war were what brought Frosty to life, but the publishers and Gene Autry thought that the song would have more commercial value as a children's Christmas song.




Anyway...

Snowballs (Su):  As a free action, Frosty can create a snowball in his hand.  He may hurl these snowballs as thrown weapons with a range increment of x feet and a maximum range of x feet.  Snowballs deal x points of damage.  Frosty may change the consistency of these snowballs to deal either lethal or nonlethal damage, with no penalty.

Frosty's Broom:  Frosty's broom functions as a wand of fireballs with 50 charges, except the fire damage is substituted with cold damage.  When used by Frosty, the broom does not expend any charges.

Frosty's Hat:  Frosty's hat is a minor artifact that grants a +x deflection bonus to AC.  Frosty cannot be permanently destroyed as long as the hat exists (see rejuvenation, below). 

Frosty's Scarf:  Frosty's scarf functions as a rope of entanglement, except if destroyed, it is restored to full hit points 24 hours later.

Rejuvenation (Su): Frosty cannot be slain through simple combat.  If reduced to 0 hit points, Frosty melts into a puddle of nonmagical water.  If Frosty's hat is placed upon any mundane snowman, it immediately transforms into Frosty.


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

I guess the broom and scarf are independent of Frosty, meaning someone else can use them?  And so Frosty would have to go find the originals if he's killed, his stuff is stolen, and then he's rejuvenated.  Is that the idea?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 10, 2008)

Range of 50 feet, with a range increment of 10 feet for the snowballs. Since they're thrown weapons, Quick Draw would make sense for one of his feat choices.


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

He can already "draw" snowballs as a free action.  Let's give him other ranged feats, though. Ranges sound good.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 10, 2008)

Oh, I missed that "draw as a free action" bit. Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot?

I think that his Dex should be higher for the snow-throwing, and like the suggestion for a halfling-style racial bonus to thrown weapons.


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2008)

freyar said:


> I guess the broom and scarf are independent of Frosty, meaning someone else can use them?  And so Frosty would have to go find the originals if he's killed, his stuff is stolen, and then he's rejuvenated.  Is that the idea?




Do you think it should work that way, or that only the hat remains?

Boost Dex to 15?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 10, 2008)

I think the broom and scarf should be emergent properties of Frosty. Any broom he touches becomes a wand of fireballs, any scarf a rope of entanglement. He can only have one at a time though, of course.


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

In that case, let's take away the bit about the charges and the scarf regeneration and put in the usual caveat that they become a normal broom and scarf if he's not holding them.  We'll have to think if he has other treasure.


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> I think the broom and scarf should be emergent properties of Frosty. Any broom he touches becomes a wand of fireballs, any scarf a rope of entanglement. He can only have one at a time though, of course.




Sounds good.  I'll make the necessary revisons.

Dex 15 work for you?


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

Works for me.  +1 or +2 bonus on thrown weapon attack rolls?


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2008)

Let's borrow from the giants rock throwing and go with a +1 racial bonus pertaining to throwing snowballs only.

Updated.


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## freyar (Dec 11, 2008)

Looks good!  1d6+Str damage?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 11, 2008)

1d4, I think.


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## Shade (Dec 12, 2008)

Updated.

Fill in the x's...

Frosty's Hat: Frosty's hat is a minor artifact that grants a +x deflection bonus to AC. Frosty cannot be permanently destroyed as long as the hat exists (see rejuvenation, below). 

Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—control weather (DC x). Caster level xth. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Skills: Frosty has a +x racial bonus on Hide checks made in areas of snow.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 12, 2008)

+3 deflection. CL 8th on control weather. +4 bonus to Hide.


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## freyar (Dec 12, 2008)

Agreed!  Frost is one bad-a** snowman!


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2008)

Yeah, but he's still got nothing on South Park's Frosty.  

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHXybTDlbkc"]South Park's Frosty[/ame]

Updated.

Skills: 64

Environment: Any cold land?

Organization: Solitary?

Challenge Rating: 4-5?

Treasure: None (except Frosty's hat)?


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## freyar (Dec 16, 2008)

Environment, Organization are good.  I'll say probably CR 5 (though maybe a little weak).  Maybe standard coins, too?

Skills: max out Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Hide, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, Use Rope?


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2008)

Updated.

I'm thinking maybe we should give him regeneration, with only fire dealing lethal damage.  It seems true to the story.  Thoughts?

Frosty is 8 feet tall and weighs x pounds.

Frosty speaks Common.  (Any other languages?)


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2008)

A little bit of regeneration seems appropriate, yeah. And I think he only needs Common.


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2008)

Regen 3?

How's this?

Regeneration (Ex): Fire deals normal damage to Frosty. If Frosty loses a limb or body part, he can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump, or craft a new one from snow in 1d3 rounds.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2008)

I'd say regen 2, but that's just sort of quibbling.


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2008)

Let's do regen 2.  I like the bit about crafting a new limb! 

400 lb?


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2008)

That all works for me.  Updated.


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2008)

So he's done, I guess!  Bring on Santa!


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2008)

Ho ho oh no!


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2008)

I had a thought!

"Frosty the Snowman
Knew the sun was hot that day.
So he said "Let's run,
"and we'll have some fun,
"before I melt away.""

So let's give him sunlight vulnerability! Takes either lethal damage or Con for every hour spent in sunlight?


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2008)

Hell yeah!

Like so?

Sunlight Vulnerability (Ex):  Frosty is highly susceptible to natural sunlight.  For each hour of exposure, Frosty suffers 2d6 points of fire damage.  Frosty is unaffected by artificial sunlight, such as that created by the daylight spell.


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## Echohawk (Dec 18, 2008)

*Santa Claus*: AC -10; MV 9"; HD 10; hp 100; SD See below, AL Very Nice; S M (but fat); S 14, I 18, W 19, C 19, D 12, Ch 20 (25 for pixies, wood elves and faerie folk) 3350 xp.

If anyone attempts to attack Santa Claus they must save vs. spells. Failure means that the character in question must suffer the effects of the 8th level magic-user spell *symbol of hopelessness*. Santa also radiates a *sphere of happiness*. All characters within 20 feet must save vs. spells or become very happy and friendly with everyone. Once characters step outside the sphere they will return to normal, but will have to save again if they re-enter the circle.

Santa will reqard anyone who frees him by presenting them with a harmless, but magical toy, eg *Elven rollerskates* (movement 18" in silence); *Cardboard armour +1* (AC 13), an *Otto's Irresistible Teddy Bear* (save vs. death magic or hug the teddy for 1-10 rounds); *Tenser's Floating Jellybaby* (when eaten acts as a *potion of levitation*).

From _Do Not Ask... For Whom The Bell Jingles_ A Not-Terribly-Serious AD&D Mini-Module for Christmas, by P Howard, G Baker and L King; IMAGINE magazine #21, December 1984


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2008)

Hehe, Santa looks ridiculous enough.  Those wondrous items will be great! 

Maybe instead of sunlight vulnerability, Frosty should take damage from Moderate and higher temperatures?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2008)

All will obey Santa in this new world order! Ho ho ho!

Temperature vulnerability does make a certain amount of sense (keeps Frosty from running around in dark, steamy jungles). Why not both temperature and sunlight?


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2008)

How's this?

Vulnerability to Heat and Sunlight (Ex): Frosty is highly susceptible to natural heat and sunlight. For each hour of exposure to sunlight or temperatures above freezing, Frosty suffers 2d6 points of fire damage. Frosty is unaffected by artificial sunlight, such as that created by the daylight spell.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 19, 2008)

Sounds good to me.


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## freyar (Dec 19, 2008)

Yup, that works.  Are we satisfied with Frosty now?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 19, 2008)

I am. So... Mr. Claus. I think Outsider (Native) would be appropriate here as well.


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## freyar (Dec 19, 2008)

Agreed.

We already have abilities!  Str 14, Dex 12, Con 19,  Int 18, Wis 19, Cha 20.  He also has a Cha bonus vs fey and wood elves, which I would suggest being a Diplomacy bonus vs fey and all elves.

Does AL Very Nice translate to NG?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 20, 2008)

I dunno. He does have very strict rules RE: the naughty/nice dichotomy. On the other hand, his ability to spy on every child in the world without permission strikes me as a disrespect of authority.


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2008)

I don't know if we'll get the big guy finished in time for Christmas, but we can try.

Do we stick with 10 HD, or follow the "divide by 4.5" rule, which gives us 22 HD?  I'm thinking the latter for a unique being of great power.

If we go the higher HD router, do the ability scores (Str 14, Dex 12, Con 19, Int 18, Wis 19, Cha 20) need a boost?

I think Native Outsider and NG will work.


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## freyar (Dec 23, 2008)

22HD is good.  Let's boost Cha at least, maybe to 30.  I'm not sure what else he really needs, given that his main abilities are going to be Cha-based (the hopelessness effect and the sphere of happiness).  The higher HD is also good because it can get him some good magic item creation feats (esp wondrous items!  We so need to write up those toys...)


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

For the attack lines, use a sack full of toys as a two-handed melee weapon and thrown toys as improvised ranged weapons?

I'm thinking we'll need flying reindeer as well.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 23, 2008)

I like where this is going! Santa's Con should be pretty high, but other than that, the ability scores aren't so important.

He does need a huge racial bonus to Escape Artist, though. And/or the ability to squeeze through very small places. Like chimneys.


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## freyar (Dec 23, 2008)

Con 25?

How about the squeezing ability from that recent undead?  It was one I think you'd worked on before, demiurge.

Suggested attack lines are good.  

Edit: ok, anyone know what symbol of hopelessness did?  If not, I'm thinking we should merge crushing despair with a symbol spell (and boost its effects).

Edit edit: 
Sphere of Happiness (Su): Any creature that enters within 20 ft (?) of Santa must make a DC X Will save or immediately become content and passive.  The creature cannot take any attacks, though it can defend itself normally, and its attitude toward all creatures becomes helpful.  If the creature leaves the sphere of happiness around Santa, it is no longer affected, but it must make a new save if it returns.  The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2008)

You mean this?

Squeeze (Su): A bloody bones can squeeze through seemingly impossible portals. As a move action, a bloody bones can pass through an opening as if it were a Fine creature. A bloody bones must end its movement in an region large enough to hold a Tiny creature, but it can take no actions other than movement unless it is in an area large enough that a Tiny creature could normally squeeze through.

As for symbol of hopelessness, I don't have the 2e texts handy, but a quick Google search found this from Icewind Dale 2:



> SYMBOL OF HOPELESSNESS (ALL)
> Level: Clr 8, Sor/Wiz 8, Oghma 7
> Range: Sight of Caster
> Duration: 10 rounds
> ...




A greater form of sanctuary might also achieve the desired effect.

I was going to suggest he be strong to carry the massive sack of toys, but then I realized it's probably just an oversized bag of holding.


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## freyar (Dec 23, 2008)

We should make the bag of holding part of his treasure!  Or maybe it only works for Santa?

Yes, that's the squeeze I meant.  Think that would work?

How about this?

Hopelessness (Su): To make an attack against Santa, a creature must make a DC X Will save.  On a successful attack, the attacker must make a second DC X Will save or become completely despondent and dazed for 1d6 rounds.  The attack also suffers a –4 penalty on attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks for one hour.  The save DC is Charisma-based.  This is a mind-affecting effect.

I guess we should note that the sphere of happiness is mind-affecting too.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 23, 2008)

That squeezing looks perfect! I was thinking of the bloody bones when I mentioned it, yeah.

A calm emotions spell might also work as a way to model the hopeless happiness. A late-era Dungeon Magazine has the "children of Sehan", with a gaze that makes people passive, even if their allies are being attacked. I'm at work now, but I could copy out the relevent ability later this afternoon.


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2008)

Good call...got it!

Calming Gaze (Su): A Child of Sehan is totally in tune with its surroundings, and exudes a supernatural aura of peace and tranquility, even as it rips apart its foes and transforms them into terrifying monsters. Any creature within 120 feet that meets its gaze must make a DC 21 Will save or be affected as though by a calm emotions spell (CL equals the Child of Sehan's HD). If the Child of Sehan attacks, it ends this effect for the target of the attack only. This is a mind-affecting compulsion effect, and the save DC is Wisdom-based.

That's about perfect.


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## freyar (Dec 23, 2008)

Yeah, I forgot about the Sehan adventures.  That might work!  I do like the idea of lasting penalties, though.


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2008)

Do we want to stick with a gaze, or make it an aura?  I'm leaning toward the latter.

For Santa's Bag, do we want to make it an artifact that functions as a bag of holding with no volume limit and no vulnerability to slashing/piercing (to account for those toy soldier weapons and whatnot)?

Santa should have somesort of omniscience that allows him to know when any sentient creature on the Material Plane is asleep or awake, and their actions (good or bad).


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 23, 2008)

I like the aura over the gaze, agreed to artifact-level Santa's Bag, and like the idea of him knowing sleeping, wakefulness, naughty and nice. Perhaps it functions like augury, with "naughty" and "nice" rather than "weal" or "woe"?


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2008)

I like that!

Summarizing...

Santa's Bag:  This major artifact appears as a large, red velvet sack with a drawstring of golden braided rope.  It functions as a bag of holding, except it has no volume limit nor can it be harmed by sharp objects.  As more objects are added within, it appears to swell with the items, but never changes weight nor limits Santa's movement.

Gonna Find Out Who's Naughty or Nice (Su):  At all times, Santa knows when any sentient creature on the Material Plane is asleep or awake, and whether they've been naughty or nice.  This functions as an augury spell, with naughty replacing woe and weal replacing nice.   This ability is always active, requires no action on Santa's part, and can be blocked by nothing short of divine intervention.

Squeeze (Su): Santa can squeeze through seemingly impossible portals, such as tight chimneys. As a move action, Santa (and any gear he carries) can pass through an opening as if he were a Fine creature. Santa must end his movement in an region large enough to hold a Tiny creature, but he can take no actions other than movement unless he is in an area large enough that a Tiny creature could normally squeeze through.  

Jolly Aura (Su): Santa Claus exudes a supernatural aura of peace and tranquility. Any creature within 120 feet must make a DC X Will save or be affected as though by a calm emotions spell (CL 22nd). If Santa attacks, it ends this effect for the target of the attack only. This is a mind-affecting compulsion effect, and the save DC is Wisdom-based.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 23, 2008)

Shall we specify that Santa Claus' naughty or nice sense is always accurate? After all, augury has a chance of failure.


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2008)

Yeah, good idea.

Do the rest look OK?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 23, 2008)

It does indeed.


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## freyar (Dec 24, 2008)

Looks great!  In "Gonna Find Out..." it should be "nice replacing weal."  I agree that it should be 100% accurate.  

Jolly Aura should be the Sphere of Happiness; do we want to do something for the hopelessness effect if someone actually manages to hit Santa?

Edit: You know, the hopelessness just seems thematically weird (unless it's 'cause the attacker realizes they will never get a present from Santa again ).  Maybe it should be something like a fascination effect instead.


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## Shade (Dec 24, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Edit: You know, the hopelessness just seems thematically weird (unless it's 'cause the attacker realizes they will never get a present from Santa again ). Maybe it should be something like a fascination effect instead.




I found it odd too...until you mentioned why they'd feel hopeless.  Now I kinda like it!

Here's a stab at his reindeer (modeled off Frostburn's caribou, with extra HD, Int, and flight)...

*Santa's Reindeer*
Medium Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 12d10+12 (78 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), fly x ft. (good?)
Armor Class: 14 (+1 Dex, +3 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +12/+13
Attack: Gore +13 melee (1d4+1)
Full Attack: Gore +13 melee (1d4+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent, silent hooves, tireless travel
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +9, Will +4
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 10
Skills: Listen +15, Spot +15
Feats: Endurance, 5 more
Environment: Cold plains
Organization: Team (9)
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral good
Advancement: -
Level Adjustment: -

Silent Hooves (Ex): Santa's reindeer always move silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks if they don't wish to be. 

Tireless Travel (Su):  Santa's reindeer can travel any distance in a single night without tiring.  Afterwards, they are exhausted, and must rest for at least a week to remove this condition.

Rudolph has the following additional ability...

Nose that Glows (Su):  Rudolph's nose sheds reddish light of variable intensity.  As a free action, Rudolph may change the intensity of this light from as dim as a candle to as bright as daylight.  As a move action, he may cover his nose with dirt or soot to extinguish its light altogether.


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## Shade (Dec 24, 2008)

And here's a take on Santa's elves...

*Toymaker Elf, 1st-Level Expert*
Small Humanoid (Elf)
Hit Dice: 1d6 (3 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 13 (+1 size, +2 Dex), touch 12, flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-5
Attack: Short sword -1 melee (1d4-1/19–20) or shortbow +2 ranged (1d4/x3)
Full Attack: Short sword -1 melee (1d4-1/19–20) or shortbow +2 ranged (1d4/x3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: None
Special Qualities: Toymaker elf traits
Saves: Fort -1, Ref +2, Will +1
Abilities: Str 8, Dex 14, Con 9, Int 15, Wis 8, Cha 9
Skills: Appraise +6, Craft (toymaking) +11, Disable Device +6, Hide +10, Listen +5, Move Silently +6, Search +4, Spot +5, Use Magic Device +3
Feats: Skill Focus (Craft [toymaking])
Environment: Any cold?
Organization: x
Challenge Rating: ½
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually chaotic good
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +0

Toymaker Elf Traits (Ex): Toymaker elves possess the following racial traits.

-2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, –2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence. 
Small size. +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, –4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits 3/4 those of Medium characters.  
A toymaker elf ’s base land speed is 20 feet. 
Immunity to sleep spells and effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects.  (Not reflected in the saving throw modifiers given here.) 
Low-light vision. 
Weapon Proficiency: Elves are automatically proficient with the longsword, rapier, longbow, composite longbow, shortbow, and composite shortbow. 
+2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it. 
+2 racial bonus on Craft (toymaking) checks.
Automatic Languages: Common, Elven. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Gnome, Sylvan. 
Favored Class: Expert. 
The toymaker elf expert presented here had the following ability scores before racial adjustments: Str 10, Dex 12, Con 11, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 9.


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## freyar (Dec 24, 2008)

Wow!  These are great!  Does Santa also look about done?

Reindeer seem CR 5-6 to me.
Elf organization: Solitary, Pair, Assembly Line (10-40)?

Maybe Hopelessness should be 

Hopelessness (Su): Any creature that successfully attacks Santa becomes catatonic for 1d6 rounds, taking no actions but defending itself normally.  Thereafter, the creature takes a -2 morale penalty to all attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks since it realizes it will never get a present from Santa again.  There is no save, and the penalty may only be removed with an atonement spell.


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## Shade (Dec 24, 2008)

For the hopelessness, I think that at least evil characters should be allowed a save.

We've still got the "magical toys" to finish up, and the jolly one still needs his AC, feats, skills, and damage for his weapons.


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## freyar (Dec 24, 2008)

Evil characters get a Cha-based save to negate?

Gotta go, but I think he should have some deflection AC.


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## Shade (Dec 30, 2008)

Revising...

Hopelessness (Su): Any creature that successfully attacks Santa becomes catatonic for 1d6 rounds, taking no actions but defending itself normally. Thereafter, the creature takes a -2 morale penalty to all attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks since it realizes it will never get a present from Santa again.  Evil creatures are allowed a DC X Will save to negate the effect.  This penalty may only be removed with an atonement, wish, or miracle spell.   The save DC is Charisma-based.

Deflection bonus sounds good.   Maybe unearthly grace?

Unearthly Grace (Su): Santa adds his Charisma modifier as a bonus on all his saving throws and as a deflection bonus to his Armor Class.


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## freyar (Dec 30, 2008)

Those look good!

1d8 damage for the bag?  1d6 for the present?


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## Shade (Dec 30, 2008)

Updated.

Let's go 1d10 for the bag, like a greatclub.

Shall we give him levitate as an at-will SLA (for getting back up chimneys)?


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## freyar (Dec 30, 2008)

Yes on levitate!


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## Shade (Dec 30, 2008)

Any other spell-like abilities?   Maybe mending/make whole?  Fabricate?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 30, 2008)

Fabricate and make whole both make sense.


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## Shade (Dec 30, 2008)

Fabricate 3/day, make whole at will?


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## freyar (Dec 30, 2008)

That makes good sense.

6 ft tall and 300 lb?  Is that sufficiently round?

Skills: Appraise, Craft (alchemy), Craft (toymaking), Craft (woodworking), Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Knowledge (geography), Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 31, 2008)

Those skills all make good sense. I'd also add Know: local, maybe at the expense of Sleight of Hand.


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## freyar (Dec 31, 2008)

Sounds fine to me.


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## Shade (Jan 5, 2009)

Updated.

Santa is often listed as short, so 6 foot may be pushing it.  How about 5-1/2 foot tall (not short by any means, but closer)?

Open Lock got me thinking...should he maybe have knock as a SLA for swifter and easier access?

+5 natural armor?


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## freyar (Jan 5, 2009)

Those suggestions all sound good.  So should we swap Open Lock into another Craft skill?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 5, 2009)

I'm at a loss for what other Craft skill he needs. Tinsmithing?


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## Shade (Jan 5, 2009)

I kinda liked the original suggestion of Sleight of Hand.  Not for stealing, mind you, but for making a toy suddenly appear in his hand (or maybe Quick Draw makes more sense there...)


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 5, 2009)

Let's go for Sleight of Hand. It does definitely include parlor tricks and that sort of magic. Speaking of which, prestidigitation at will?


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## freyar (Jan 5, 2009)

Since we need the skills, let's go with SoH.  Or else perhaps another Knowledge --- arcana for magical toymaking?  Is knock going to be at will, btw?


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## Shade (Jan 5, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Let's go for Sleight of Hand. It does definitely include parlor tricks and that sort of magic. Speaking of which, prestidigitation at will?




Sure.  



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Since we need the skills, let's go with SoH. Or else perhaps another Knowledge --- arcana for magical toymaking? Is knock going to be at will, btw?




Yeah, I think knock at will.

As for magical toymaking...he probably needs something like the item master ability of some of the archfiends to allow him to craft wondrous items without possessing spellcasting.   

Here's the ability...

Item Master (Ex): Demogorgon can use any magic item, even spell completion items such as wands or scrolls. He can also create any item or construct as though he had the necessary feats and prerequisite spells or other requirements.


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## freyar (Jan 5, 2009)

Excellent.  So that frees up feats, as well!

Skill Focus (Craft [toymaking])?, ...?

For the reindeer, Run might also be a decent feat.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 5, 2009)

Agreed to Item Master.


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## Shade (Jan 6, 2009)

Feats: 8 (1 can be epic)



freyar said:


> Skill Focus (Craft [toymaking])?, ...?




Animal Affinity*, Epic Skill Focus (Craft [toymaking]), Improved Initiative, Negotiator, Quick Draw, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (knock), Skill Focus (Craft [toymaking]), Stealthy


*We probably need to give him the Handle Animal skill, as the vehicle rules (from Dragon Magazine #294) for driving sleds relies on that skill.

For example...

Sled: Large vehicle; Handle Animal +2; Spd drawn (clumsy); Overall hp 40 (hardness 5); Overall AC 4; Atk (3d6, ram); Face 15 ft. by 5 ft.; Height 5 ft.; Crew 1; Weight 300 lb.; Cargo 1 ton; Cost 20 gp.
Drawn across ice or snow, the sled is an almost entirely exposed structure. The driver and any passengers gain one-quarter cover behind 1 inch of wood (hp 10, hardness 5). Eight riding dogs can pull the sled over ice or packed snow at a Speed of 40 feet even if it's fully loaded. Unracked snow slows their movement by one-half and deep snow cut it to one-quarter.

Worg Warsled: Huge vehicle; Handle Animal +2; Spd drawn (poor); Overall hp 100 (hardness 7); Overall AC 3; Atk (6d6, ram); Face 15 ft. by 10 ft.; Height 5 ft.; Crew 1 (plus three passengers); Weight 900 lb.; Cargo 700 lbs.; Cost 400 gp.
Goblins in snowy climes use their worg allies to pull massive sleds covered with makeshift armor and spikes. The driver and passengers aboard such a warsled gain threee-quarters cover behind a mix of steel and wood (hp 20, hardness 7). Two worgs abreast pull the sled at a Speed of 35 feet.


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## freyar (Jan 6, 2009)

Take some ranks out of Appraise, Escape Artist, and Sleight of Hand for Handle Animal?


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## Shade (Jan 6, 2009)

Updated.

I shaved a few skill ranks here and there to get a decent Handle Animal score.   Look OK?

Let's finish up his reindeer's feats as well:

Feats: Endurance, Run, 4 more


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 6, 2009)

Flyby Attack, Dodge, Mobility, Alertness


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## Shade (Jan 6, 2009)

Updated.

Target AC for Santa (so we can figure out natural armor)?

Environment: Santa's Workshop?

Organization: Solitary, team (Santa and his 9 reindeer), or workshop (Santa plus x toymaker elves)?

Challenge Rating: 21?  (He's quite a bit less deadly than a solar)

Treasure: No coins; quintuple goods; quintuple items?

The range increment is x feet for Santa's thrown gifts.

Skills: Santa has a +x racial bonus on all Charisma-based skill checks when dealing with elves or fey.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 6, 2009)

There we go! Craft (confectionry)! It isn't Christmas without candy. 

I was inspired by the urge to make a gag about normal coins (chocolate only).

+4 when dealing with elves, target AC should be in the 30s, range increment 20 feet for thrown presents, The North Pole for environment.


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## freyar (Jan 6, 2009)

This is all good!  I think we should absolutely keep the chocolate coins. 

AC 33 to be somewhat arbitrary?


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## Shade (Jan 6, 2009)

Nice suggestion on the candy!   We should give him magical candycanes that function as sais.     (Internal Filter: _No, let's not_)

Updated.

Rather than try to pilfer a bunch of skill ranks again, I just raised Int to 20.  Any objections?

Organization: Solitary, team (Santa and his 9 reindeer), or workshop (Santa plus x toymaker elves)?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 6, 2009)

No objections. Santa is one smart cookie. 10-100 toymaker elves, plus 1 3rd level expert overseer for every 10?


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## freyar (Jan 7, 2009)

That all works for me, including organization.


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## Shade (Jan 7, 2009)

Updated.

It looks like all that remains is the CR for the reindeer, and any specific wondrous items we want to stat up.   We might also want to make his sleigh into an artifact-vehicle.


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## freyar (Jan 7, 2009)

CR 6 or even 5.  They're not as good as a dragonne.



> Santa will reqard anyone who frees him by presenting them with a harmless, but magical toy, eg Elven rollerskates (movement 18" in silence); Cardboard armour +1 (AC 13), an Otto's Irresistible Teddy Bear (save vs. death magic or hug the teddy for 1-10 rounds); Tenser's Floating Jellybaby (when eaten acts as a potion of levitation).




Well, definitely the skates and bear, and the jellybaby is just too easy.  I feel like there's already paper armor somewhere...

I'd be fine with doing the sleigh.


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## Shade (Jan 8, 2009)

Santa's reindeer speak Common and Elven?

Elven rollerskates = boots of elvenkind that also increase wearer's land speed by 10 feet?

For the teddy bear, any creature within 30 feet that sees it must succeed on Will save?

For the sleigh, we can probably use the worg warsled as a basis...

Worg Warsled: Huge vehicle; Handle Animal +2; Spd drawn (poor); Overall hp 100 (hardness 7); Overall AC 3; Atk (6d6, ram); Face 15 ft. by 10 ft.; Height 5 ft.; Crew 1 (plus three passengers); Weight 900 lb.; Cargo 700 lbs.; Cost 400 gp.

Goblins in snowy climes use their worg allies to pull massive sleds covered with makeshift armor and spikes. The driver and passengers aboard such a warsled gain threee-quarters cover behind a mix of steel and wood (hp 20, hardness 7). Two worgs abreast pull the sled at a Speed of 35 feet.


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## freyar (Jan 8, 2009)

Those suggestions all look good.  I don't know the "sled rules" (like speed drawn, etc), but that makes sense.


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## Shade (Jan 8, 2009)

We can simplify it to something like this for folks without the expanded vehicle rules...

Santa's Sleigh:  This major artifact is a Huge vehicle, capable of holding 1 driver and four passengers.  If pulled by flying creatures, it glides through the air as if weightless.   Santa's sleigh has unlimited carrying capacity.  It can be steered with a successful Handle Animal check, and moves at the speed of Santa's reindeer.  As a major artifact, it is nearly indestructible.  Santa's sleigh provides cover to its driver and passengers.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 8, 2009)

Shade's sleigh writeup is simple and effective. Let's go with that.


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## freyar (Jan 8, 2009)

Yeah, looks great!


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## Shade (Jan 8, 2009)

Updated.

Added sections for the sleigh and toys.


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## freyar (Jan 8, 2009)

Looks good.  I think all we need is a price for the bear.  How about 1500 gp?  It's disabling, but not as much as dust of sneezing and choking.


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## Shade (Jan 8, 2009)

We'll have to change the prereq and caster level, since Otto's dance is an 8th-level spell!

We still need fly speed and manueverability for reindeer.  60 feet (good)?


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2009)

Hmmmm....  I'm open to other price suggestions.  Could try dominate person and/or hold person for something at lower level.

60 ft (good) works.


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2009)

How about enthrall?  It's only 2nd-level.


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2009)

Perfect!


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 9, 2009)

Enthrall sounds right.


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2009)

Updated.

Are we finally finished with The Man in Red?


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2009)

I don't see anything missing.  Well, I guess he missed the 12th day of Christmas.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 9, 2009)

Any more zany holiday conversions left, or will the next one be more mundane?


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2009)

I think we're good until the Easter Bunny, since the leprechaun is already in the CC.  That is, unless Echohawk finds a conversion of Cupid lying around...


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## Shade (Apr 14, 2009)

*The Taumet*
FREQUENCY: Unique
No APPEARING: 1
ARMOUR CLASS: Variable
MOVE: 3"/18"
HIT DICE: Variable
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
No OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Variable
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Breath weapon, spells
SPECIAL DEFENCES: Variable
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Genius
ALIGNMENT: Variable Evil
SIZE: S-L
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defence Modes: Nil/Nil
LEVEL/XP VALUE: X/18750+25hp

The Taumet is a magically-created dragon construct, made from five relics whose origins are lost in the mists of time according to the instructions in a book of unknown authorship called the Taumet Codex.

Once the process of creating the Taumet has begun, it takes 13 melee rounds to develop into the complete Taumet. During this time, the wearer of the relics is used as the basis of the Taumet's body, dying in the process. The Taumet takes some of the wearer's memories and alignment during its growth, always remaining evil, but taking the Lawful, Neutral or Chaotic attitude of its 'parent'. While the transformation takes place, the Taumet can attack and be attacked, as it grows in power and size:

Round, AC, HD, Damage, SA/SD
1&2, 5, 1, 1-4/1-4/1-6, Immune to attacks causing less than 4 points of damage
3&4, 3, 3, 1-6/1-6/1-8, Immune to 1st level spells, +1 or better weapons to hit
5&6, 1, 5, 1-6/1-6/2-12, Non-edged weapons cause half damage
7, 0, 7, 1-6/1-6/2-16, Breath weapon usable, +2 or better weapons to hit
8, -1, 9, 1-6/1-6/3-18, Immune to 2nd level spells and attacks causing less than 8 point of damage
9, -2, 11, 1-8/1-8/3-24, +3 or better weapons to hit
10, -3, 13, 1-8/1-8/3-30, Immuned to 3rd level spells
11, -4, 15, 1-10/1-10/3-36, Spell use, immune to attacks causing less than 12 points of damage
12, -5, 17, 1-10/1-10/4-40, Immune to 4th level spells and damage from non-edged weapons
13, -6, 18, 1-12/1-12/5-50, +4 or better weapons to hit

If the Taumet suffers more than 40 points of damage in a single round during this period of growth, the process will be halted for that round, and in the early stages this will be sufficient to cause the Taumet to disassociate into its component relics.

Like all normal dragons, the Taumet has a set number of hit points per hit dice, but this depends on the original wearer of the relics:

Wearer; hp/HD
MU or Illusionist; 4hp
Thief, assassin; 6hp
Cleric, monk, druid; 8hp
Fighter, ranger, paladin; 10hp

The Taumet can breath 3 times per day, but can choose what form this takes; either as a black, blue, green, red or white dragon. Once it has the use of spells, it can cast, once per day, those spells that the relics knew at the time of the transformation or 5 x 1st, 5 x 2nd, 5 x 3rd, 4 x 4th, 4 x 5th and 2 x 6th level spells as though it were a 13th level magic user.

If the Taumet is reduced to zero hit points, it will not be killed, but forced to disassociate into its component relics and the withered remains of the original wearer. The relics cannot be destroyed except by the application of earth-shattering magic (depending upon individual DM's campaigns), but they can be kept separate to prevent the Taumet reforming around another wearer.

The bane of the Taumet is the Wyrmhorn. When this horn is sounded within 60' of the construct it must make a saving throw at -7 against death magic or dissociate into its component relics. A successful saving throw still means that the Taumet has taken 8-80 points of damage, but is immune to the effects of the Wyrmhorn until the next sunrise. The DM will have to decide how best to place the Wyrmhorn in the campaign.

*The Taumet Codex*
This tome has, over the course of the centuries since it was written, been badly mistreated, burnt and partially destroyed. The only remaining pieces of the Codex, now bound into a new book little concerned with the truth of the Taumet, describe the relics and some of their powers, although not the fact that they will attempt to dominate their wearer(s).

The last stained and partial section of the Codex concerns the creation of the Taumet, and is little more than a phonetic speech (in an unintelligible, forgotten tongue) to be read out in the presence of the wearer of the relics. "The Taumet", says the text, "will then be released upon the World and all its kindred."

Dungeon Masters using the D&D(R) game rules should note that the Taumet can be used as a variation on the drolem given on p31 of the Dungeon Masters Companion in the Companion Set.

(From "The Taumet Codex" by Andrew Swift, Imagine Magazine #29, August 1985.)


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## freyar (Apr 14, 2009)

Don't put on that armor! 

Seems sort of like a template.  And do we have a drolem lying around for comparison?


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## Shade (Apr 14, 2009)

IIRC, the ironwyrm golem in Draconomicon is the 3e drolem.


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## freyar (Apr 14, 2009)

I'll try to remember to look that up tonight. 

Thoughts on making this a template?


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## Shade (Apr 14, 2009)

It's somewhat like a half-dragon template, I suppose.  It almost feels more like a prestige class (albeit one not taking by choice).


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## freyar (Apr 14, 2009)

Yeah, maybe a PrC.  I guess I'm thinking something more extreme than half-golem maybe.  The reason I'd lean towards the template is the spell casting bit and the HD size.  Hmmm.


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## Shade (Apr 29, 2009)

Taking a fresh look at this...



> The Taumet is a magically-created dragon construct, made from five relics whose origins are lost in the mists of time according to the instructions in a book of unknown authorship called the Taumet Codex.






> Once the process of creating the Taumet has begun, it takes 13 melee rounds to develop into the complete Taumet. During this time, the wearer of the relics is used as the basis of the Taumet's body, dying in the process.






> The Taumet takes some of the wearer's memories and alignment during its growth, always remaining evil, but taking the Lawful, Neutral or Chaotic attitude of its 'parent'.




...I'm no longer leaning toward a template.  Essentially, the "template" only lasts 13 rounds until the wearer dies.   Then we just have the alignment bit and some flavor text leftover.


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## freyar (Apr 30, 2009)

Fair enough.  How do you want to deal with this, then?



> Like all normal dragons, the Taumet has a set number of hit points per hit dice, but this depends on the original wearer of the relics:
> 
> Wearer; hp/HD
> MU or Illusionist; 4hp
> ...


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2009)

Rather than using typical construct d10s, we could have it retain the base creature's racial Hit Dice (or dice from prominent class levels).

I'd be all for ditching that bit altogether, though.


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## freyar (Apr 30, 2009)

Let's ditch it then.  As an alternate, we could replace the usual construct bonus hp with the "parent's" hp.

During the transformation period, how do we treat the HD line?  I don't think a 10HD barbarian, for example, should drop to 1HD in the first round of the transformation.


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2009)

freyar said:


> Let's ditch it then.  As an alternate, we could replace the usual construct bonus hp with the "parent's" hp.




I love that idea!



freyar said:


> During the transformation period, how do we treat the HD line?  I don't think a 10HD barbarian, for example, should drop to 1HD in the first round of the transformation.




Expanding on your idea above, what if we started it with max HD, but treated it as if it had only its base creature's hit points, gaining say, 15 hp per round thereafter until its maximum was reached?


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## freyar (May 1, 2009)

Sounds like a good idea!  How about we start with some base stats and then get started on the transformation and SAs?

So...  How many HD for this?  It's listed as 18, but it seems like it should be more, given that it's artifact level.  And the aforementioned ironwyrm golems are 40HD (hmm, interesting, the Draconomicon must have gone to press before WotC decided to add bonus hp to constructs).  Base ironwyrm stats are Str 41, Dex 8, Con -, Int -, Wis 13, Cha 19.


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## Shade (May 1, 2009)

Agreed.  We could go with 40 HD, like the ironwyrm, or even 49 HD like Tiamat, from which I think this was inspired.


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## freyar (May 1, 2009)

How about 45?  Stronger than the ironwyrm but not entirely god-like.


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## Shade (May 1, 2009)

Sounds good.

Int is given as "genius" (17-18).

So use ironwyrm golem stats, but improve mental scores?

Maybe Str 41, Dex 8, Con —, Int 18, Wis 17, Cha 19?


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## freyar (May 4, 2009)

Looks about right.


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## Shade (May 4, 2009)

Added the basics (using ironwyrm golem as baseline) to Homebrews.


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## freyar (May 5, 2009)

Good start.  Start on special abilities or transformation process first?


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## Shade (May 6, 2009)

Probably the special abilities, as the transformation should be more complex and will probably modify the special abilities to varying degrees.



> The Taumet is a magically-created dragon construct, made from five relics whose origins are lost in the mists of time according to the instructions in a book of unknown authorship called the Taumet Codex.






> If the Taumet is reduced to zero hit points, it will not be killed, but forced to disassociate into its component relics and the withered remains of the original wearer. The relics cannot be destroyed except by the application of earth-shattering magic (depending upon individual DM's campaigns), but they can be kept separate to prevent the Taumet reforming around another wearer.




We'll need to check with Echohawk to find out if there are specific relics associated with the Taumet.  If not, we'll need to either create some or offer guidelines to DMs for picking them (as they'll be part of the treasure).




> Round, AC, HD, Damage, SA/SD
> 1&2, 5, 1, 1-4/1-4/1-6, Immune to attacks causing less than 4 points of damage
> 3&4, 3, 3, 1-6/1-6/1-8, Immune to 1st level spells, +1 or better weapons to hit
> 5&6, 1, 5, 1-6/1-6/2-12, Non-edged weapons cause half damage
> ...




It appears to have at least DR 12/magic and slashing or piercing, some form of immunity to magic, spell use, and a breath weapon.



> The Taumet can breath 3 times per day, but can choose what form this takes; either as a black, blue, green, red or white dragon.




I'd recommend just modifying the ironwyrm's breath to five varieties.

Ironwyrm has...

Breath Weapon (Su): 60 ft. cone, every 1d4 rounds, 20d10 fire, Reflex DC 30 half. The breath weapon type remains the same regardless of the dragon spirit contained within.

Keep it a cone for all energy types, or match specific shape of the chromatic dragon whose breath it mimics?



> Once it has the use of spells, it can cast, once per day, those spells that the relics knew at the time of the transformation or 5 x 1st, 5 x 2nd, 5 x 3rd, 4 x 4th, 4 x 5th and 2 x 6th level spells as though it were a 13th level magic user.




Actual spellcasting like many true dragons, or just SLAs?


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## freyar (May 6, 2009)

Shade said:


> Probably the special abilities, as the transformation should be more complex and will probably modify the special abilities to varying degrees.
> 
> We'll need to check with Echohawk to find out if there are specific relics associated with the Taumet.  If not, we'll need to either create some or offer guidelines to DMs for picking them (as they'll be part of the treasure).



Sounds good.


> It appears to have at least DR 12/magic and slashing or piercing, some form of immunity to magic, spell use, and a breath weapon.



Probably want to bump the DR even more to fit epic 3e specs.  Possibly DR 20 and possibly /epic rather than magic.

Immunity to 4th and lower level spells that allow SR (as golems)?



> I'd recommend just modifying the ironwyrm's breath to five varieties.
> 
> Ironwyrm has...
> 
> ...




I like line vs cone depending on type, but it's not a biggy.



> Actual spellcasting like many true dragons, or just SLAs?




I think I prefer spellcasting, but I don't know how to interpret the comment about spells that the relics "knew."  Do you get that?  Perhaps Echohawk can dig up more about this, as well.


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## Echohawk (May 9, 2009)

Shade said:


> We'll need to check with Echohawk to find out if there are specific relics associated with the Taumet.



*The Relics*
The Taumet relics are, for the most part, sentient rather than truly intelligent, but will still attempt to influence their current owners into finding the other relics and the Taumet Codex. Two or more relics can add their Ego scores together to give a new personality value, so that any creature will end up dominated sooner or later, given that the five relics have a total personality score of 76.

The powers given below for the individual relics apply only when less then the full set of five is worn by a single character. If all five are worn by a single character they have a somewhat different and unfortunate effect. The wearer's personality is totally subsumed by the relics and, if the Taumet Codex is present, the wearer will have no choice but to declaim the passage that creates the Taumet.

Once this is done, the wearer collapses in agony, and his or her final and fatal transformation into the Taumet begins.

*The Fire Claws*
These two clawed gauntlets of red metal scales are gem encrusted and act as *bracers of defence AC 0*. They act as *shortswords +5* in combat, and as the functional equivalent of a *ring of fire resistance*. Because they are unwieldy, it is impossible for a character to wear the Fire Claws and use any other item, except for its partner relics. The Fire Claws are unintelligent, but have an Ego of 15 (Swords, *DMG* p167).

*The White Shield*
This is a single dragon scale, which has been carefully worked into a small *shield +4*. It provides immunity from any attack that causes less than 10 points of damage, and a bonus of +4 to saving throws vs cold based attacks. Also, no dragon will attack the wielder of this shield, except in self-defence. The White Shield has an Ego of 13.

*The Venom Lance*
The evil (but otherwise non-aligned) polearm can be wielded as a *spear +3* by a foot soldier or as a heavy horse *lance +4* by a horseman. Creatures struck by this weapon (Int 13, Ego 13) must save vs poison at -4 or take an additional 3-18 points of damage for 1-4 rounds. The Venom Lance can also *detect good* and *cause fear* (once per day), and communicate empathically with its wielder.

*The Cloak of Clouds*
This grey, whispy and tattered looking cloak allows its wearer to cast the following spells as though a 12th level MU, once per day: *feather fall*, *gust of wind*, *fly*, *lightning bolt*, *control weather*. Any creature who touches the wearer of the Cloak of Clouds must make a saving throw vs death magic or suffer 6-36 points of electrical damage. The Cloak has an Ego of 13.

*The Wyrmhelm*
This helm is cast in the form of a snarling dragon head, so elaborate and stylised as to be utterly useless as armour. However, its wearer can understand the tongues of all dragonkind and cast *charm monster* (no saving throw) on any dragon once per week. The wearer can also cast *command* 3 times per day. It has an Ego of 9.


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## Shade (May 11, 2009)

Great!   Thanks.


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## freyar (May 11, 2009)

These would be cool as a magic item set, as in the MIC.  But I still don't understand how they "know spells."


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## Shade (May 11, 2009)

Dunno, but I love the stacked egos of the set.  Great idea!


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## freyar (May 11, 2009)

So should we just go with sorcerer spellcasting and write up the relics at the end?


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## Shade (May 11, 2009)

Hmmm...I'm wondering if it wouldn't be easier to just skip "spellcasting" in the literal sense, and just go with the SLAs common to intelligent items.  If each item is smart enough, it could add up close to the 20 spells.  Thoughts?


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## freyar (May 12, 2009)

Well, it would be easier.  And we already have a partial list from the relics themselves.  Sure, let's do that.


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## Shade (May 12, 2009)

Excellent.   Shall we convert the relics first?


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## freyar (May 13, 2009)

If you like!


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## Shade (May 13, 2009)

It looks like the fire claws have a slightly higher ego, the wyrmhelm the lowest, and all the rest about on par.

The given powers are...

The Fire Claws:  Function as bracers of defense/ring of fire resistance. 

The White Shield: Damage reduction 10/-, +4 bonus on saves vs.  cold. Dragons won't attack wielder.

The Venom Lance:  Venomous, detect good 1/day, cause fear 1/day, and communicate empathically with its wielder.

The Cloak of Clouds:  Feather fall 1/day, gust of wind 1/day, fly 1/day, lightning bolt 1/day, control weather 1/day, "electric shield".

The Wyrmhelm:  Allows wearer to speak draconic, charm monster (dragons only, no save) 1/ week, command 3/day. 


I'd say that all have the special purpose of "form the Taumet", so I'd suggest breaking them down the mental ability scores as follows...

Wyrmhelm: Two at 17, one at 10 
All Others:  Two at 18, one at 10 
Fire Claws:  Two at 19, one at 10


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## freyar (May 13, 2009)

Looks good to me!

Magic item sets in the MIC also grant extra abilities when multiple items are worn.  In this case, we know the "ability" when all 5 are worn.  But do we want to add any for when 2, 3, or 4 are worn?


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## Shade (May 13, 2009)

Let's take 'em one at a time, and see if any gaps appear that we can fill in with partial set powers.  

Getting started...

*The Fire Claws*
These two clawed gauntlets of red metal scales are gem encrusted and act as bracers of defence AC 0. They act as shortswords +5 in combat, and as the functional equivalent of a ring of fire resistance. Because they are unwieldy, it is impossible for a character to wear the Fire Claws and use any other item, except for its partner relics. The Fire Claws are unintelligent, but have an Ego of 15 (Swords, DMG p167).

Mental ability scores:  Two at 19, one at 10 
Communication:  Speech, telepathy
Capabilities:  Four lesser powers and three greater powers (special purpose can replace one greater power)
Senses:  120 ft. darkvision, blindsense, and hearing 

Should we have them mimic bracers of armor +6 (granting an armor bonus), or offer a different type of bonus?

Grant wielder resistance to fire x?


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## freyar (May 13, 2009)

More basically, these are +5 spiked gauntlets?  I'd say that they also function as bracers of armor and grant fire resistance 10.  Sound reasonable?  The latter two sound like the remaining two greater powers.  

Int should probably be the mental stat at 10 for all of these, since they're not supposed to be quite intelligent.


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## Shade (May 13, 2009)

I agree with your assessments on Int and +5 spiked gauntlets.

Fire resistance 10 is simply a tack-on +18,000 gp for armor nowadays (which can be applied to bracers of armor), so how about not counting that as a greater power.

Some suggestions for the powers...

Lesser Powers (4):
Item has 10 ranks in Bluff
Item can use locate object 3/day
Item can use faerie fire 3/day
Item can use detect magic at will

Greater Powers (3):
Item creates wall of fire in a ring with the wielder at the center 1/day
One greater power replaced by special purpose power.
One greater power replaced by functioning as bracers of armor.

Special Purpose Power:
Item can cast 10d6 fireball

I looked at the red dragon for inspiration, since it seems to come from a red dragon's scales.


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## freyar (May 13, 2009)

That's fine, but these here gauntlets are going to be pricy!

Those powers sound good.  And the "special purpose" power you mean is the dedicated one that can be used to help the wearer build the Taumet?  Sure!  1/day on that fireball?  

CE like red dragons?


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## Shade (May 13, 2009)

freyar said:


> That's fine, but these here gauntlets are going to be pricy!




True, unless we make them artifacts (which I feel we should), and therefore, priceless.  



freyar said:


> Those powers sound good.  And the "special purpose" power you mean is the dedicated one that can be used to help the wearer build the Taumet?  Sure!  1/day on that fireball?




Indeed, and yes to 1/day.



freyar said:


> CE like red dragons?




Good idea!


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## freyar (May 13, 2009)

Good point!  I feel like we're in a Mastercard commercial: "Fire resistance 10 --- 18000 gp.  Chaotic evil red dragon artifact --- priceless."   Ready to put the Fire Claws together in a writeup?


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## Shade (May 13, 2009)

Fire Claws:  This pair of +5 spiked gauntlets appears to have been fashioned from red metal scales and encrusted with rubies.  This chaotic evil intelligent artifact has Int 10, Wis 19, Cha 19, and Ego X.  Additionally, the fire claws function as bracers of armor +8(?), and grant the wearer resistance to fire 10.  The fire claws have 10 ranks in Bluff, and can use detect magic at will, faerie fire and locate object each 3/day, and can create a wall of fire in a ring with the wielder at the center 1/day.  Like the other Taumet relics, its special purpose is to join with the other relics to form the Taumet.  Its special purpose dedicated power allows it to unleash a 10d6 fireball once per day.  

The fire claws have darkvision, blindsense, and hearing to a range of 120 ft..  It can speak Common and communicate telepathically with its wielder, and can read all languages as well as use read magic at will.   Caster level 20th(?).


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## Shade (May 15, 2009)

Next...

*The White Shield*
This is a single dragon scale, which has been carefully worked into a small shield +4. It provides immunity from any attack that causes less than 10 points of damage, and a bonus of +4 to saving throws vs cold based attacks. Also, no dragon will attack the wielder of this shield, except in self-defence. The White Shield has an Ego of 13.

Mental ability scores:  Two at 18, one at 10 
Communication:  Speech, telepathy
Capabilities:  Three lesser powers and two greater powers (special purpose can replace one greater power)
Senses:  120 ft. darkvision, blindsense, and hearing 

+4 light steel shield?
Damage reduction 10/-?  Or replace with some degree of fortification?
+4 bonus on saves vs. cold (or replace with the more standard resistance to cold 10?)
Dragons won't attack wielder.  (Make this function as sanctuary that only works against dragons?)

Some suggestions for the powers...

Lesser Powers (3):
Item has 10 ranks in Knowledge (arcana)
Item can use fog cloud 1/day*
Sancturary (always active, applies to dragons only)*

These weren't on the usual intelligent items list, but seem comparable in power.

Greater Powers (2):
Item can use gust of wind 3/day
One greater power replaced by special purpose power.

Special Purpose Power:
Item can use ice storm


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## freyar (May 15, 2009)

+4 light steel shield.  DR 10/- seems right.  Let's go with resistance 10.  Powers look good.  1/day on the ice storm, as previous?


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## Shade (May 15, 2009)

Indeed.

So...

The White Shield: This +4 light steel shield appears to have been fashioned from a single white dragon scale. This chaotic evil intelligent artifact has Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 18, and Ego X. Additionally, it grants its bearer damage reduction 10/- and resistance to cold 10. The white shield has 10 ranks in Knowledge (arcana), and can use detect gust of wind 3/day and fog cloud 1/day.  Additionally, it generates a continuous sanctuary effect, but only creatures of the dragon type are susceptible to its effects. Like the other Taumet relics, its special purpose is to join with the other relics to form the Taumet. Its special purpose dedicated power allows it to unleash an ice storm once per day. 

The white shield has darkvision, blindsense, and hearing to a range of 120 ft.. It can speak Common and communicate telepathically with its wielder, and can read all languages as well as use read magic at will. Caster level 20th(?).


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## freyar (May 16, 2009)

Excellent!  I'm quite liking these.


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## Shade (May 18, 2009)

Next...

*The Venom Lance*
The evil (but otherwise non-aligned) polearm can be wielded as a spear +3 by a foot soldier or as a heavy horse lance +4 by a horseman. Creatures struck by this weapon (Int 13, Ego 13) must save vs poison at -4 or take an additional 3-18 points of damage for 1-4 rounds. The Venom Lance can also detect good and cause fear (once per day), and communicate empathically with its wielder.

Mental ability scores: Two at 18, one at 10 
Communication: Speech, telepathy
Capabilities: Three lesser powers and two greater powers (special purpose can replace one greater power)
Senses: 120 ft. darkvision, blindsense, and hearing 

+4 lance (you can wield one when not mounted nowadays)?
Actual poison on each strike?  Or use this special purpose power from the list:  Item can use poison (heightened to 4th level) as touch attack?  Or both?

This one isn't keyed to a particular dragon, but green seems the most likely.

Some suggestions for the powers...

Lesser Powers (3):
Item has 10 ranks in Spellcraft
Item can use detect good at will*
Item can use water breathing on wielder 1/day*

*These weren't on the usual intelligent items list, but seem comparable in power.

Greater Powers (2):
Item can cause fear in an enemy at will
One greater power replaced by special purpose power.

Special Purpose Power:
Item can use poison (heightened to 4th level) as touch attack


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## freyar (May 19, 2009)

Looking pretty good.  I'd say let's stick with the poison dedicated power (still 1/day?), but perhaps it is a +3 wounding lance?  That gives some flavor of poison.  Or it could have prevenom weapon x/day as a lesser power instead of Spellcraft?  Not sure.


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## Shade (May 20, 2009)

The prevenom weapon idea is fantastic!

So...

The Venom Lance: The tip of this +4 lance appears to be a dragon's claw.  The haft is covered in green scales. This lawful evil intelligent artifact has Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 18, and Ego X. The venom lance can use detect good at will, can cause fear in an enemy at will, and use water breathing on its wielder 1/day. Additionally, the venom lance can produce a mild venom 3/day. On the next successful melee attack, the venom deals 2 points of Constitution damage (Fortitude DC X negates). Like the other Taumet relics, its special purpose is to join with the other relics to form the Taumet. Its special purpose dedicated power allows it to use poison (heightened to 4th level) once per day as a touch attack. 

The venom lance has darkvision, blindsense, and hearing to a range of 120 ft.. It can speak Common and communicate telepathically with its wielder, and can read all languages as well as use read magic at will. Caster level 20th(?).


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## GrayLinnorm (May 20, 2009)

The lance should have a higher intelligence than 10; it had 13 in the original description.


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## Shade (May 20, 2009)

GrayLinnorm said:


> The lance should have a higher intelligence than 10; it had 13 in the original description.




True, but we've decided to shoehorn them into the 3e intelligent item format (2 scores at 17, 1 at 10 in this case).   I suppose we could swap Wis and Int for this one.  Is that preferable?


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## GrayLinnorm (May 21, 2009)

Yes.


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## freyar (May 22, 2009)

Swapping Int and Wis works for me, too.  That would make it the smartest of the bunch, I guess.

How should we set the DC for the 3/day mild toxin?  DC 14 as the prevenom weapon power?


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## Shade (May 26, 2009)

Int for Wis it is!  

For the DC, it looks like it should be 24 (10 + 1/2 your caster/manifester level + Cha mod).


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## freyar (May 26, 2009)

Wait, where's that come from?  I thought it was 10+power level+stat modifier.  Are we treating it as a Psi-like ability?


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## Shade (May 26, 2009)

Check it out:  prevenom


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## freyar (May 26, 2009)

Oh, weird, it has a nonstandard DC (interestingly, the poison spell has the same nonstandard DC).  Ok, sure, let's treat the manifester level as 20, same as caster level (which is also the CL to create?).  But let's stick both to Wis, or else we'll end up with a lower DC for poison than the venom.


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## Shade (May 26, 2009)

Sounds good, assuming you mean "Cha" rather than "Wis", since we dropped Wis to 10.  And since these are artifacts, we don't have to worry about the troublesome creation bits.  

So...

The Venom Lance: The tip of this +4 lance appears to be a dragon's claw. The haft is covered in green scales. This lawful evil intelligent artifact has Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 18, and Ego X. The venom lance can use detect good at will, can cause fear in an enemy at will, and use water breathing on its wielder 1/day. Additionally, the venom lance can produce a mild venom 3/day. On the next successful melee attack, the venom deals 2 points of Constitution damage (Fortitude DC 24 negates). Like the other Taumet relics, its special purpose is to join with the other relics to form the Taumet. Its special purpose dedicated power allows it to use poison (heightened to 4th level) once per day as a touch attack. 

The venom lance has darkvision, blindsense, and hearing to a range of 120 ft.. It can speak Common and communicate telepathically with its wielder, and can read all languages as well as use read magic at will. Caster level 20th.


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## freyar (May 26, 2009)

Well, then we need to specify the DC for poison, because one of the weird things about the poison DC is that it's always Wis-based (poison), probably because it's a Cleric and Druid spell.


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## Shade (May 26, 2009)

Good point.  Will a parenthetical (DC X) suffice?


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## freyar (May 26, 2009)

I think so.  Or else swapping Cha and Wis.


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## Shade (May 27, 2009)

Let's stick with Cha.  Oddly, heightening poison doesn't appear to affect the save DC.

Revising...

The Venom Lance: The tip of this +4 lance appears to be a dragon's claw. The haft is covered in green scales. This lawful evil intelligent artifact has Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 18, and Ego X. The venom lance can use detect good at will, can cause fear in an enemy at will, and use water breathing on its wielder 1/day. Additionally, the venom lance can produce a mild venom 3/day. On the next successful melee attack, the venom deals 2 points of Constitution damage (Fortitude DC 24 negates). Like the other Taumet relics, its special purpose is to join with the other relics to form the Taumet. Its special purpose dedicated power allows it to use poison (heightened to 4th level, DC 24) once per day as a touch attack. 

The venom lance has darkvision, blindsense, and hearing to a range of 120 ft.. It can speak Common and communicate telepathically with its wielder, and can read all languages as well as use read magic at will. Caster level 20th.


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## freyar (May 27, 2009)

Seems pretty good.  Does heightening do anything to a spell except increase DCs?  If not, let's ditch that.  With the DC 24 on poison, I'm now thinking we should say (DC 24, using the Cha modifier rather than Wis modifier).


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## Shade (May 27, 2009)

Heightening also helps with things like penetrating a lesser globe of invulnerability and so forth, so we might as well keep it.  I'll add your additional text, though.

*The Cloak of Clouds*
This grey, whispy and tattered looking cloak allows its wearer to cast the following spells as though a 12th level MU, once per day: feather fall, gust of wind, fly, lightning bolt, control weather. Any creature who touches the wearer of the Cloak of Clouds must make a saving throw vs death magic or suffer 6-36 points of electrical damage. The Cloak has an Ego of 13.

Make electrical damage a variant of fire shield, always active?

Lesser Powers:
Continuous feather fall effect on wearer?
Bestow flight on wearer for x minutes/hours per day?
Gust of wind 1/day?

Greater Powers:
Control weather 1/day?

Special Purpose Power:  
Item can cast 10d6 lightning bolt?


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## freyar (May 28, 2009)

That all sounds good.  We should make it look blue somehow!

Flight 10 min/day?  Or is that too much?


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## Shade (May 28, 2009)

I think that duration is reasonable for an artifact.  And sure, we can "blue it up" a bit.  

The Cloak of Clouds: This wispy, tattered gray cloak has a faint bluish cast to it. This lawful evil intelligent artifact has Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 18, and Ego X. The cloak of clouds provides a continuous feather fall effect on wearer, and can allow its wearer to fly (as the spell) for up to 10 minutes per day, divided as the cloak wishes.  Additionally, the cloak of clouds This spell wreathes its wearer in electricity and causes damage to each creature that attacks the wearer in melee.  Any creature striking the wearer with its body or a handheld weapon deals normal damage, but at the same time the attacker takes 1d6+15 points of electricity damage.  If the attacker has spell resistance, it applies to this effect. Creatures wielding weapons with exceptional reach are not subject to this damage.  The cloak of clouds can use control weather and gust of wind each 1/day. Like the other Taumet relics, its special purpose is to join with the other relics to form the Taumet. Its special purpose dedicated power allows it to unleash a 10d6 lightning bolt once per day. 

The cloak of clouds has darkvision, blindsense, and hearing to a range of 120 ft.. It can speak Common and communicate telepathically with its wielder, and can read all languages as well as use read magic at will. Caster level 20th.


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## freyar (May 28, 2009)

Looks really good!  I think you just need to get rid of "This spell" in "Additionally, the cloak of clouds This spell wreathes its wearer in electricity..."

Just the black dragon one is left?


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## Shade (May 28, 2009)

Yessir.   This is the weaker one...

*The Wyrmhelm*
This helm is cast in the form of a snarling dragon head, so elaborate and stylised as to be utterly useless as armour. However, its wearer can understand the tongues of all dragonkind and cast charm monster (no saving throw) on any dragon once per week. The wearer can also cast command 3 times per day. It has an Ego of 9.

Suggestions...

Lesser Powers:
Command 3/day
Wearer can speak Draconic
Item has 10 ranks in Intimidate

Greater Powers:
- (the sole one is used for special purpose power)

Special Purpose Power:  
Charm monster 1/week (dragons only)


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## freyar (May 29, 2009)

That sounds good.  CE?  

Also, we need to boost the DC on the charm monster or else give it the no save from the original text.  Charm monster limited to dragons 1/week seems kind of weak all by itself.


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## Shade (May 29, 2009)

Sure.  Do we want to tie this one in with black dragons, since that is the only primary chromatic not represented by an item?

I hesitate on the no save, as even the orbs of dragonkind allow a save (DC 25) vs. domination.

Maybe we could heighten it to 9th level?


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## freyar (May 29, 2009)

Heightening the charm to 9th sounds fine.  Maybe we can boost to 1/day or 3/week or something.

I would like to tie these to black dragons, at least in appearance.  We just don't have much wiggle room in terms of powers.  Really, after taking into account the original text, we can only swap out the Intimidate ranks.  Would water breathing 1/day be a reasonable lesser power?  That's kind of black-dragon-ish.


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## Shade (May 29, 2009)

1/day is reasonable.  It's not devastatingly powerful, and the artifact lacks any other "oomph!"

I'd rather not do water breathing since we already gave it to the venom lance.  Maybe resistance to acid 10?


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## freyar (May 29, 2009)

Forgot about water breathing on the lance.  Unfortunately, greens and black cover a lot of similar ground. Resistance to acid 10 works fine for me.

Once this last one is written up, do you want to add "set powers" as in MIC for people who own 2, 3, or 4 of them?   We already know the "power" of owning all 5.


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## Shade (May 29, 2009)

Yeah, definitely set powers.  We might also writeup the wyrmhorn and Taumet codex as artifacts.


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## freyar (May 31, 2009)

Good idea on the other 2 artifacts.

My weekend is turning busy (there goes the skinpuppets ), but I'll see if I can look up the set power guidelines.


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2009)

Summarizing...

The Wyrmhelm: This black metal help is elaborately sculpted into a stylized, snarling dragon head. This chaotic evil intelligent artifact has Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 18, and Ego X. The wyrmhelm provides its wearer resistance to acid 10 and the ability to speak fluent Draconic. The wyrmhelm has 10 ranks in Intimidate, and can use command 3/day. Like the other Taumet relics, its special purpose is to join with the other relics to form the Taumet. Its special purpose dedicated power allows it to use charm monster (heightened to 9th level, DC 23) once per day, but only against creatures of the dragon type. 

The wyrmhelm has darkvision, blindsense, and hearing to a range of 120 ft.. It can speak Common and communicate telepathically with its wielder, and can read all languages as well as use read magic at will. Caster level 20th.


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## freyar (Jun 1, 2009)

Looks good!

I glanced at the MIC this morning.  I didn't see guidelines on the set powers, but a quick look at some examples suggests that adding another item to your possession should give you essentially one lesser power (possibly on the weak side, though these are artifacts and could therefore get a bigger boost).


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2009)

Updated.

Sounds good.   Shall we mine the chromatic dragons for more ideas?

We'll also need to figure out the ego scores for the individual items, then determine how they stack when combined.


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## freyar (Jun 1, 2009)

You're right, the stacking egos are interesting.  Perhaps they stack for forcing the possessor to follow the special purpose only?  This is almost like a weird set power by itself.

I don't know if there's anything in MIC about it, but I don't think the extra set powers should also increase the egos.

Yes, let's mine the chromatics for more.  I was thinking that a breath weapon 1/day or 2/week or something might be nice at 4 items, but I can't figure out what would be a good energy type.


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2009)

We could note which items contribute which energy types, and randomly determine between the number of items possessed which energy type appears.   

Discern location and find the path from the red's list of SLAs make perfect sense for fulfilling the items' goal of finding the remaining items and merging.

The blue's illusion spells and the plant spells from the green dragon aren't represented.  Darkness and insect plague from the black might also be appropriate.


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## freyar (Jun 1, 2009)

All these sound good, but we might be getting too many here.  Perhaps let's drop the breath weapon, since it's a little problematic anyway.   What about this?
2 items - 1/day ventriloquism, darkness
3 items - 1/day plant growth
4 items - 1/week discern location


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2009)

I like that, except plant growth just doesn't seem that useful in achieving its goals.   Since the green's other abilities are fairly well-represented already (via the venom lance), maybe veil or mirage arcana from the blue (which could help throw pursuers off its tracks) and/or damage reduction (to help explain the scaling DR during the transformation to Taumet)?


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## freyar (Jun 1, 2009)

1/day mirage arcana and DR 5/whatever it should be?  Sure!


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2009)

Sounds good.

Here's how Ego is measured...
Each +1 of item’s enhancement bonus 1 
Each +1 of bonus for special abilities 1 
Each lesser power 1 
Each greater power 2 
Special purpose (and dedicated power) 4 
Telepathic ability 2 
Read languages ability 1 
Read magic ability 1 
Each +1 of Intelligence bonus 1 
Each +1 of Wisdom bonus 1 
Each +1 of Charisma bonus 1 

So it looks like...
Fire claws = 33
White shield = 30
Venom lance = 30
Cloak of clouds = 25
Wyrmhelm = 22

Actually stacking them seems brutally unfair, so how about using the highest score among the items worn, with a +2 bonus for each additional item?


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## freyar (Jun 2, 2009)

That works for me.  And, again, probably they only "cooperate" for the special purpose.


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## Shade (Jun 2, 2009)

Updated.

Should we note what happens when two item-controlled "hosts" come into contact?   Would the Taumet simply order one to hand over the relics to the other, or would they "duke it out" to determine the more worthy host?


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## freyar (Jun 2, 2009)

Depends on the alignment of the item in charge for each host?  Lawful ones will attempt Intimidation or Diplomacy; chaotic evil ones will coerce their host to fight -- to the victor go the relics.

Typos: "item's" instead of "items" in the Ego stacking line.  Let's just set all the CLs to 20.  And you have "help" instead of "helm" in the Wyrmhelm description.

Once that's done, should we work on the Taumet itself or the transformation next?


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## Shade (Jun 2, 2009)

I'll fix the typos.

Let's work on these before moving on to the taumet itself.

*Wyrmhorn*
The bane of the Taumet is the Wyrmhorn. When this horn is sounded within 60' of the construct it must make a saving throw at -7 against death magic or dissociate into its component relics. A successful saving throw still means that the Taumet has taken 8-80 points of damage, but is immune to the effects of the Wyrmhorn until the next sunrise. The DM will have to decide how best to place the Wyrmhorn in the campaign.

*The Taumet Codex*
The Taumet is a magically-created dragon construct, made from five relics whose origins are lost in the mists of time according to the instructions in a book of unknown authorship called the Taumet Codex.

This tome has, over the course of the centuries since it was written, been badly mistreated, burnt and partially destroyed. The only remaining pieces of the Codex, now bound into a new book little concerned with the truth of the Taumet, describe the relics and some of their powers, although not the fact that they will attempt to dominate their wearer(s).

The last stained and partial section of the Codex concerns the creation of the Taumet, and is little more than a phonetic speech (in an unintelligible, forgotten tongue) to be read out in the presence of the wearer of the relics. "The Taumet", says the text, "will then be released upon the World and all its kindred."


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## freyar (Jun 2, 2009)

Hmm, you know, since they need to find the codex once all 5 items are together, we could give them a 5-piece set power.  Breath weapon, 40 ft cone, xdx damage, X per day or week?  Can choose energy type (fire, electricity, cold, acid) each time?


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## Shade (Jun 2, 2009)

Good idea, since...



> The powers given below for the individual relics apply only when less then the full set of five is worn by a single character. If all five are worn by a single character they have a somewhat different and unfortunate effect. The wearer's personality is totally subsumed by the relics and, if the Taumet Codex is present, the wearer will have no choice but to declaim the passage that creates the Taumet.


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## freyar (Jun 3, 2009)

Hmmm, so drop the breath weapon and put that in?  Or put in both?


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## Shade (Jun 3, 2009)

We could go both.  The items are fully in control at that point, and would probably like having a breath weapon at their disposal.


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## freyar (Jun 4, 2009)

Let's do both, then.


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## Shade (Jun 4, 2009)

Updated.



> Wyrmhorn
> The bane of the Taumet is the Wyrmhorn. When this horn is sounded within 60' of the construct it must make a saving throw at -7 against death magic or dissociate into its component relics. A successful saving throw still means that the Taumet has taken 8-80 points of damage, but is immune to the effects of the Wyrmhorn until the next sunrise. The DM will have to decide how best to place the Wyrmhorn in the campaign.




Wanna add in a damaging effect vs. evil dragons so it is useful against something other than the Taumet?


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## freyar (Jun 4, 2009)

Sure.  Seems like there should be some good legend for this, too.


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2009)

How about we make it good-aligned, and deals 4d10 damage to evil dragons and 2d10 to neutral dragons?

Echohawk can correct me if the magazine contradicts this, but I'm getting a strong Tiamat vibe off the Taumet.   If this is the case, perhaps the wyrmhorn was crafted by Bahamut or his priests?


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## freyar (Jun 5, 2009)

Excellent ideas!  We're making it intelligent as well?


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2009)

Sure, why not?  

It has a special purpose, after all!


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## freyar (Jun 5, 2009)

Sounds good!  What kind of stats?  Similar to the Taumet relics?


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2009)

Yeah.  Shall we follow the strongest one (fire claws) so that it would theoretically have a comparable host?


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## freyar (Jun 5, 2009)

That's just what I was thinking. That's two at 18, one at 10.  Want to make it smart and put Wis at 10?
It has:
Speech, telepathy
120 ft. darkvision, blindsense, and hearing
3 lesser, 2 greater powers (want to make one a dedicated power for the special purpose of either destroying the Taumet or more generally evil dragons?)


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2009)

Actually, the fire claws have two at 19, one at 10, four lesser powers and three greater powers (one of which is special purpose).

I agree with Wis being the "dump stat".

Let's make the special purpose destroying the Taumet.  Killing a few evil dragons along the way is just gravy.


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## freyar (Jun 5, 2009)

Ooops, misread that.  Agreed to this.  

So the main magical bit is the damage to evil dragons.  Should the destruction of the Taumet be the dedicated greater power?

Suggested lesser powers: bless allies 3/day, 10 ranks in Knowledge (appropriate for Taumet -- religion or arcana?), cure moderate wounds on wielder 3/day, maybe zone of truth 3/day?


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2009)

I'd say Arcana, since it applies to both dragons and golems.

How about locate object 3/day as a lesser power so it can track down the Taumet items?

I'm fine with the rest of what you suggested.

The special purpose power does eat up a greater power slot.  I'd say the blast that deals 8d10 damage to the Taumet, 4d10 damage to evil dragons and 2d10 to neutral dragons is the special purpose power.   Usable 1/day?


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## freyar (Jun 5, 2009)

Let's replace zone of truth with locate object, then.  I had been thinking the range on locate object wasn't long enough for that, but perhaps it would be helpful.

Don't forget breaks the taumet apart on a failed save!  1/day is fine.

Should this thing have a "normal" power or just the ones associated with being intelligent?  Perhaps it is a horn of goodness (that doesn't adapt to the owner)?


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2009)

Sure.  I could even see it functioning as a horn of blasting as well, what with its ability to blow the Taumet to pieces!


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## freyar (Jun 6, 2009)

Hmm, I think that the horn of blasting is maybe too similar to the dedicated power.  But you could convince me.


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## Echohawk (Jun 7, 2009)

Shade said:


> Echohawk can correct me if the magazine contradicts this, but I'm getting a strong Tiamat vibe off the Taumet.   If this is the case, perhaps the wyrmhorn was crafted by Bahamut or his priests?



There is nothing much in the original Imagine article to either contradict or support a link to Tiamat. The Taumet comes from a brief article (three pages) which is very light on background material. That said, I think a link to Bahamut would make the Taumet a more useful conversion.


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## Shade (Jun 8, 2009)

freyar said:
			
		

> Hmm, I think that the horn of blasting is maybe too similar to the dedicated power. But you could convince me.




I was just thinking that the horn of goodness is a bit weak for a base artifact power, and the blasting was synergistic.  



Echohawk said:


> There is nothing much in the original Imagine article to either contradict or support a link to Tiamat. The Taumet comes from a brief article (three pages) which is very light on background material. That said, I think a link to Bahamut would make the Taumet a more useful conversion.




Great!  Thanks.


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## freyar (Jun 8, 2009)

Ok, you convinced me.   I think I prefer a regular (not greater) horn of blasting, though, because the greater one would be too powerful compared to the dedicated power.  Let's also put in that, if it damages an evil dragon, that use doesn't count towards the chance of blowing up.


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## Shade (Jun 8, 2009)

Putting the pieces together...

The Wyrmhelm: This instrument appears to be fashioned from solid platinum, molded in the shape of a dragon's horn. This lawful good intelligent artifact has Int 19, Wis 10, Cha 19, and Ego x.  It functions as both a horn of blasting and a horn of goodness.  It never risks exploding when used. The wyrmhelm has 10 ranks in Knowledge (arcana), and can use bless, cure moderate wounds (on wielder), and locate object each 3/day. Created by priests of Bahamut, the Wyrmhelm's special purpose is to destroy the Taumet, and to a lesser extent, any evil dragons that get in its way. Its special purpose dedicated power allows it to unleash a powerful blast in a 60-foot cone once per day.   This blast deals 4d10 damage to evil dragons and 2d10 to neutral dragons.  Against the Taumet, it deals 8d10 points of damage and forces the Taumet to succeed on a DC X Fortitude(?) save or discorporate into its component relics, killing the host in the process.

The Wyrmhelm has darkvision, blindsense, and hearing to a range of 120 ft.. It can speak Common and communicate telepathically with its wielder, and can read all languages as well as use read magic at will. Caster level 20th.


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## freyar (Jun 9, 2009)

Should we specify if the damage to dragons is on top of the normal blasting ability?  Because it doesn't do enough to the neutral dragons otherwise.  Looking good, though.  I think the Fort save is right for the Taumet, though I guess constructs only get their base Fort bonus, right?


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## Shade (Jun 9, 2009)

Correct.  Constructs have terrible, terrible saves.  

Dunno about the neutral dragon damage.  Perhaps just boost the damage rather than "stacking" with blasting?  Or just drop the neutral dragons bit altogether, since Bahamut probably has no beef with them?


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## freyar (Jun 9, 2009)

Let's drop the neutral dragons, I guess.  But I think this is good.

How do you want to pick the DC for the Taumet?


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## Shade (Jun 9, 2009)

Well, if we go by greater shout, that's DC 10 + spell level (8) + Cha (4) = 22.

However, the Taumet's Fort save is +15, so DC 25 would give it a 50/50 shot.


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## freyar (Jun 9, 2009)

Let's go with 25.  It's an artifact, so we can just set it there.


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## Shade (Jun 9, 2009)

Updated.

One more item!

*The Taumet Codex*
This tome has, over the course of the centuries since it was written, been badly mistreated, burnt and partially destroyed. The only remaining pieces of the Codex, now bound into a new book little concerned with the truth of the Taumet, describe the relics and some of their powers, although not the fact that they will attempt to dominate their wearer(s).

The last stained and partial section of the Codex concerns the creation of the Taumet, and is little more than a phonetic speech (in an unintelligible, forgotten tongue) to be read out in the presence of the wearer of the relics. "The Taumet", says the text, "will then be released upon the World and all its kindred."


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## freyar (Jun 10, 2009)

Seems to me that this shouldn't be intelligent but more like a key to a lock.  As such, I'm not sure there's much to add to this.

I just had a silly image of the Taumet relics/Taumet as one of those Transformers sets where you put 5 or 6 together to make the giant Transformer.


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2009)

Yeah, it's probably more like the Book of Vile Darkness.  

It is a bit like Devastator.  I once tried to come up with a template for combining multiple creatures into one to achieve a similar goal...but I was never satisfied with the results.


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## freyar (Jun 10, 2009)

BoVD is a nice idea!  So -- hp damage if a nonevil character handles it, some greater penalty if they read it (perhaps they are attacked by some kind of evil dragon?).  Hmmm.


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2009)

I'd say "nonevil or not currently in possession of Taumet relics".

Maybe it should send out a "distress beacon" to all the Taumet relics if someone tries to read it?


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## freyar (Jun 10, 2009)

Nice idea.  Alerts them to try to dominate their wielders?   I kind of like the idea of summoning some kind of dragonish creature, too.


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2009)

Sounds good.  'tis a damn shame the scalamagdrion isn't open content.


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## freyar (Jun 10, 2009)

Shade said:


> Sounds good.  'tis a damn shame the scalamagdrion isn't open content.



I was actually thinking the same thing.  Perhaps we can find a suitable dragon in the CC and put in a sidebar for people with Magic of Faerun?


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## Shade (Jun 11, 2009)

Nothing currently in the Creature Catalogue seems appropriate, although our in-progress false lindworm might work nicely.  It has ties to chromatic dragons, is probably a mid-range CR, and is fairly straightforward.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 11, 2009)

Let's go for that, then. Cross promotion FTW.


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## Shade (Jun 11, 2009)

Summarizing...

The Taumet Codex:  This tome appears well-worn, burnt, and partially destroyed.  Over the years, portions of the book have been lost (perhaps intentionally), and it has been rebound.

The Taumet Codex is an evil minor artifact whose purpose is to assist the Taumet Relics into forming the Taumet.  The tome describes the relics and some of their powers, but hides the fact that they are intelligent and seek to take control of their bearers.

The last stained and partial section of the Codex concerns the creation of the Taumet, and is little more than a phonetic speech (in an unintelligible, forgotten tongue) to be read out in the presence of the wearer of the relics. "The Taumet", says the text, "will then be released upon the World and all its kindred."    Anyone in possession of the complete set of Taumet relics is forced to read this passage, and will begin the transformation into the Taumet.

A nonevil creature not currently in possession of one or more of the Taumet relics suffers xdx points of damage each round the Codex is handled.  Should the same creature attempt to read the Codex, a false lindworm (of random color) is instantly summoned and attacks the reader.  The false lindworm fights until either it or the reader is destroyed.   Should the reader survive, and attempt to read from the tome again, another false lindworm is called.


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## freyar (Jun 11, 2009)

Looks good!  3d6 per round?


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## Shade (Jun 11, 2009)

Updated (and added scalamagdrion suggestion).

Time to return to the Taumet itself?


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## freyar (Jun 12, 2009)

I think so.  That's a lot of magic items!  (And I'm going to have to remind myself about the Taumet itself.)


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2009)

Here's your reminder.  

*The Taumet*
FREQUENCY: Unique
No APPEARING: 1
ARMOUR CLASS: Variable
MOVE: 3"/18"
HIT DICE: Variable
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
No OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Variable
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Breath weapon, spells
SPECIAL DEFENCES: Variable
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Genius
ALIGNMENT: Variable Evil
SIZE: S-L
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defence Modes: Nil/Nil
LEVEL/XP VALUE: X/18750+25hp

The Taumet is a magically-created dragon construct, made from five relics whose origins are lost in the mists of time according to the instructions in a book of unknown authorship called the Taumet Codex.

Once the process of creating the Taumet has begun, it takes 13 melee rounds to develop into the complete Taumet. During this time, the wearer of the relics is used as the basis of the Taumet's body, dying in the process. The Taumet takes some of the wearer's memories and alignment during its growth, always remaining evil, but taking the Lawful, Neutral or Chaotic attitude of its 'parent'. While the transformation takes place, the Taumet can attack and be attacked, as it grows in power and size:

Round, AC, HD, Damage, SA/SD
1&2, 5, 1, 1-4/1-4/1-6, Immune to attacks causing less than 4 points of damage
3&4, 3, 3, 1-6/1-6/1-8, Immune to 1st level spells, +1 or better weapons to hit
5&6, 1, 5, 1-6/1-6/2-12, Non-edged weapons cause half damage
7, 0, 7, 1-6/1-6/2-16, Breath weapon usable, +2 or better weapons to hit
8, -1, 9, 1-6/1-6/3-18, Immune to 2nd level spells and attacks causing less than 8 point of damage
9, -2, 11, 1-8/1-8/3-24, +3 or better weapons to hit
10, -3, 13, 1-8/1-8/3-30, Immuned to 3rd level spells
11, -4, 15, 1-10/1-10/3-36, Spell use, immune to attacks causing less than 12 points of damage
12, -5, 17, 1-10/1-10/4-40, Immune to 4th level spells and damage from non-edged weapons
13, -6, 18, 1-12/1-12/5-50, +4 or better weapons to hit

If the Taumet suffers more than 40 points of damage in a single round during this period of growth, the process will be halted for that round, and in the early stages this will be sufficient to cause the Taumet to disassociate into its component relics.

Like all normal dragons, the Taumet has a set number of hit points per hit dice, but this depends on the original wearer of the relics:

Wearer; hp/HD
MU or Illusionist; 4hp
Thief, assassin; 6hp
Cleric, monk, druid; 8hp
Fighter, ranger, paladin; 10hp

The Taumet can breath 3 times per day, but can choose what form this takes; either as a black, blue, green, red or white dragon. Once it has the use of spells, it can cast, once per day, those spells that the relics knew at the time of the transformation or 5 x 1st, 5 x 2nd, 5 x 3rd, 4 x 4th, 4 x 5th and 2 x 6th level spells as though it were a 13th level magic user.

If the Taumet is reduced to zero hit points, it will not be killed, but forced to disassociate into its component relics and the withered remains of the original wearer. The relics cannot be destroyed except by the application of earth-shattering magic (depending upon individual DM's campaigns), but they can be kept separate to prevent the Taumet reforming around another wearer.


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## freyar (Jun 15, 2009)

Ok, I think we should stat this out and then work on the transformation.  

I believe we wanted to go with SLAs rather than casting.  Work from the relics' SLAs?


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2009)

Indeed!

We already have the basic stats here.


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## freyar (Jun 15, 2009)

How about just using all the SLAs from the relics, including set powers?  That should be a pretty decent list already.  We can think about adding more, increasing frequency, etc.

Disassembly (Su): The Taumet cannot be destroyed completely.  Instead, when it is reduced to zero hit points (or fails a save against the Wyrmhorn, see below), it falls apart into the set of Taumet relics.  

Want to have the relics teleport to random places in the campaign world, too?


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2009)

Yeah, I think that was our original plan when giving the items SLAs.

Scattering across the plane makes good sense.


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2009)

Ok, then:

Disassembly (Su): The Taumet cannot be destroyed completely. Instead, when it is reduced to zero hit points (or fails a save against the Wyrmhorn, see below), it falls apart into the set of Taumet relics, which individually teleport to random places on the plane.


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2009)

Looks good!

Since the Taumet is a variant drolem/ironwyrm golem, shall we simply borrow the similar abilities?

Breath Weapon (Su): 60 ft. cone, every 1d4 rounds, 20d10 fire, Reflex DC 30 half. The breath weapon type remains the same regardless of the dragon spirit contained within.  (In the Taumet's case, I'd say it can choose between the five chromatic breath weapons).

Immunity to Magic (Ex): An ironwyrm golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

A cold effect slows it (as the slow spell) for 3 rounds, with no saving throw.

(Since the white dragon is part of its components, perhaps replace this wtih sonic effects, based on the wyrmhorn?)

A fire effect breaks any slow effect on the golem and cures 1 point of damage for each 3 points of damage the attack would otherwise deal. If the amount of healing would cause the golem to exceed its full normal hit points, it gains any excess as temporary hit points. For example, an ironwyrm golem hit by a delayed blast fireball cast by a 15th-level wizard that would normally deal 52 points of damage instead gains back 17 hit points. The golem gets no saving throw against fire effects.

(We could really go overboard and change it to an "acid, cold, electricity, or fire effect" to account for the component dragons).  

Immunity to Rust (Ex): An ironwyrm golem is immune to any rust attacks, whether magical or not.

Unlike the drolem/ironwyrm, the Taumet can apparently fly:



> MOVE: 3"/18"




Retain the fly speed?  If so, poor or clumsy manueverability?


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2009)

Let's let it choose breath type, as that's what the original text suggests.

I like your suggestions for Immunity to Magic, including going overboard.   This is epic, seriously.

I guess the rust thing works, though I'm not sure the Taumet is obviously made from metal.

Fly, probably clumsy.


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2009)

Updated.

I'm fine with dropping the immunity to rust, as it has enough going on.  

Spell-Like Abilities:  At will—cause fear, detect magic; 3/day—command, faerie fire, gust of wind, locate object ;  1/day—charm monster, control weather, darkness, discern location, fireball, fog cloud, ice storm, lightning bolt, mirage arcana, poison, ventriloquism, wall of fire.  Caster level xth.  The save DCs are Charisma-based.

I think we should change its mental ability scores to reflect the highest scores of each of its component relics.  It should also get the component relics' senses and languages.


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2009)

Agreed to all that. Should we add any other SLAs?  My feeling is that this is probably enough, but we might want to empower or quicken some.  There might be one or two more good "dragony" ones, though.

So Int 18, Wis 19, Cha 19?  Maybe we should boost these some, too, to represent combined mental power.


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2009)

It's already on par with a great wyrm white dragon.  We could go with the middle-of-the-pack green dragon, who at great wyrm gets 22s and 23s.


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## Shade (Jun 19, 2009)

Updated with those revised ability scores to see how it would look.

I also threw in some flavor text.

How does this work for taking the host's hit points?

Incorporate Host (Su?):  As part of the transformation process, the Taumet acquires all of the host creature's permanent hit points (such as those gained from class levels and unmodified Constitution score).  It does not incorporate hit points gained from spells (such as Bear's Endurance), magic items (such as an amulet of health), or other temporary sources.


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2009)

That looks pretty good.  Let's make it Ex, though, so it doesn't disappear in an antimagic field or something.

I think these ability scores look fine, and the flavor is great!

Caster Level 20 for SLAs?

If we're happy with the SLAs, time for the transformation process?  Or is there anything else to add?


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2009)

Updated.

I added the bit about retaining the lawful/neutral/chaotic portion of the host's alignment into incorporate host.

Do we still need a transformation process, since the increasing "set powers" of the artifacts essentially cover the same groound?   We could just simplify it to take a full-round?


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## freyar (Jun 22, 2009)

Let's say it takes 3 full rounds, adding 15d10 HD each round.  It gains disassembly at the start but construct traits, DR, and immunity to magic at the end.  How's that sound?  I think it would give a dramatic window for the heros to destroy the Taumet before it's fully functional.


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2009)

That sounds reasonable.  Should we put that in the Combat section, or in the Taumet relics area where we mention triggering the transformation?


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## freyar (Jun 23, 2009)

Relics section, with it's own heading.  Also, I'm thinking that it shouldn't get any action during those 3 rounds, but it can defend itself normally (ie, not flat-footed).


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## Shade (Jun 23, 2009)

Added Transformation section to Homebrews.

Does that suffice?

Skills: 8 at 48 ranks
Concentration, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Listen, Search, Spot, Sense Motive, Use Magic Device?

Feats: 16 (9 can be epic)
Awesome Blow, Cleave, Devastating Critical (bite), Flyby Attack, Great Cleave, Hover, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Multiattack, Overwhelming Critical (bite), Power Attack, Snatch, Weapon Focus (bite), Wingover?


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## freyar (Jun 25, 2009)

Looks good; the bit about saving the victim is a nice touch.

Skills and feats look right.  I'm not going to be much help on the CR, I'm afraid.  If you suggest one, I can try comparing to something else, though.


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## Shade (Jun 25, 2009)

Updated.

I reworked the skills a bit to include Bluff, since one of the component relics had ranks in it.   You gotta love that +6 synergy bonus granted by 45 ranks in a skill!

I'd ballpark it around CR 20.   An ironwyrm golem is CR 17, and only 5 less Hit Dice.  However, the Taumet is intelligent, so it gains *lots *of feats and skills, has adaptable breath weapon damage, spell-like abilities, and the added hit points of its host.

It actually compares fairly comparably to the tarrasque (CR 20).


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## freyar (Jun 25, 2009)

That's true enough.  Sure CR 20.  The tarrasque is probably harder to kill (since we don't even know the Taumet's hp), but the Taumet may have more options.

Just noticed the "death bite" and I don't remember it (though we have been working on this a while)!  Should there be a special attack write up for that?


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## Shade (Jun 25, 2009)

Are you referring to the Fort save on the attack lines?  If so, I was just filling in the Devastating Critical bits for ease-of-reference.


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## freyar (Jun 25, 2009)

Ahhh, oops, I forgot about that! Too many things in my head....


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## Shade (Jun 25, 2009)

Did we miss anything?


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## freyar (Jun 25, 2009)

Unless we want to put in suggestions for how to destroy the relics, I think it's done.  I don't have any great idea about that, though.  Probably it should involve destroying the codex and sacrificing the wyrmhorn, but that's all I've got.


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## Shade (Jun 26, 2009)

We can probably just leave that up to the DM, although your ideas are sound.


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## freyar (Jun 26, 2009)

Yeah, let's just leave it.  This can go in the next dragon themed batch!


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