# Dragon 365 - Artificer



## Shroomy (Jul 3, 2008)

It's up:

http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080702


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## greatamericanfolkher (Jul 3, 2008)

As my group would say "This does not suck!"
Might get me to actually play a leader.


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## Kelvor Ravenstar (Jul 3, 2008)

Hoody-hoo! Our first arcane leader has arrived. A bit short on the higher level powers though. And new magic items!


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## Shroomy (Jul 3, 2008)

I've only skimmed the article, but the artificer is very different from the other leader types.  Also, the powers seem a bit more complicated than those in the PHB, but that may just seem that way because I rushed through it.  I'm going to read it in more depth soon.


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## greatamericanfolkher (Jul 3, 2008)

Ny only real complaint is the lack of at-wills to choose from, but they'll most likely fix that in the eberron book.


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## Boarstorm (Jul 3, 2008)

I didn't expect this article for another 3 weeks!

Happy day.


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## Shroomy (Jul 3, 2008)

Since the ECS doesn't come out to 2009, I hope they release a Part II with the additional powers as part of an additional playtest article.


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## OzTenaka (Jul 3, 2008)

It clearly states in the "sidebar etc" that this is probably about 1/2 of the planned full class - Its shows the features and powers realting to the one build "Battlesmith"
So if it seems a bit lacking on powers etc that would be why


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## hailstop (Jul 3, 2008)

No paragon path either.


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## Deverash (Jul 3, 2008)

Some great powers to poach for a wizard, though.


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## dragon_eater (Jul 3, 2008)

Healing infusion: Curative admixture seems like a really good ability. Allowing your entire party to spend a healing surge is powerful even if you don't get the extra +1d6 to healing.


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## Shado (Jul 3, 2008)

dragon_eater said:


> Healing infusion: Curative admixture seems like a really good ability. Allowing your entire party to spend a healing surge is powerful even if you don't get the extra +1d6 to healing.




Yeah... just in reading it (no playtest experience with) it seems.... strong. 

EDIT: Nevermind!  I completely misread that.


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## Shroomy (Jul 3, 2008)

dragon_eater said:


> Healing infusion: Curative admixture seems like a really good ability. Allowing your entire party to spend a healing surge is powerful even if you don't get the extra +1d6 to healing.




You expend a healing surge for a set number of temporary hit points; you don't gain the other benefits of expending a healing surge.


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## Kaodi (Jul 3, 2008)

Maybe it is just me, but I do not really like it. I wonder if the other build that we do not get to see is more like the traditional artificer than this one. In any case, it seems strange that they get Ritual Casting for free, but they do not explictly gain Enchant Item and Disenchant Item automatically.


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## dragon_eater (Jul 3, 2008)

Shroomy said:


> You expend a healing surge for a set number of temporary hit points; you don't gain the other benefits of expending a healing surge.




Ah.. you're right. My mind seemed to have substituted the 'to gain' with a 'and gain'. It seems much more reasonable now.


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## Boarstorm (Jul 3, 2008)

This class is sufficiently different from anything we've seen before that I'm having a hard time digesting it on some levels.

One thing that I find really interesting is that the artificer can spend a minor action to move an artifice con mod squares.  Perhaps a hint at what we'll see for "pet" classes?


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## Scribble (Jul 3, 2008)

Interesting that not all of the powers have an action type...  Well they have "Short Rest" as the action type.


Admittedly I haven't read all the powers in the PHB, but this is a new thing no?


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## mhacdebhandia (Jul 3, 2008)

Scribble said:


> Interesting that not all of the powers have an action type...  Well they have "Short Rest" as the action type.
> 
> Admittedly I haven't read all the powers in the PHB, but this is a new thing no?



It's called out as a class feature. The "short rest" action type denotes the fact that you spend some time preparing an item to have a semi-permanent effect. It is new, but I think only _good luck charm_ (utility 16) and _hero's elixir_ (utility 22) have that action type.


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## Scribble (Jul 3, 2008)

mhacdebhandia said:


> It's called out as a class feature. The "short rest" action type denotes the fact that you spend some time preparing an item to have a semi-permanent effect. It is new, but I think only _good luck charm_ (utility 16) and _hero's elixir_ (utility 22) have that action type.




Well, I know it's called out. I was just wondering if it was a new thing, or if I'd missed it in the PHB. Guess it's a new thing.


I assume it's also a test bed for doing this down the road with some of the new powers for old classes books?


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## Hussar (Jul 3, 2008)

In other news, the O'Connor pic at the end of the article, with the artificer chick at the doorway is very sweet.  I like.


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## Rechan (Jul 3, 2008)

Ha! I knew they would replenish magical weapon powers! 

I wonder what the other build(s) will be. Probably something involving more offense (ye olde Blastificer). Whatever the case, the build will be utilizing Con. 

Some of the language is a little weird. For instance, I thought Thundering Armor attacked the first target and the second. Also, at first I wasn't sure what the hell artifices are. It'd be easy to just say 'it's an object you squirt magic into that is thus a temp magical foci'.

Dancing weapon is nice. You can animate any old piece of junk, and use your implement's stats to facilitate it. 

I like it. However, I had trouble figuring out how the hell things were related to Artificers/objects until I read the fluff text.


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## OzTenaka (Jul 3, 2008)

Does anyone have any idea about the "aftereffect" addition to some powers 

Burrowing Projectile Attack 19 for example


In general this class build seems to be amongst the least "damaging/ Healing" but most buffing/debuffing 

Leader/Controller as opposed to the more Leadery Cleric and Leader/Minor Striker of the Warlord


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## Shroomy (Jul 3, 2008)

I re-read the entire article and I quite like the artificer; it seems like it has lots of potential, and its abilities were a nice dichotomy between creating stuff and blowing stuff up (I bet the rules for alchemical items in the forthcoming _Adventurer's Vault_ will synergize nicely).  I also noticed that this is the second class whose combat schtick is centered around ranged weapons.  The ranger and the artificer, who would've thunk it?


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## Shroomy (Jul 3, 2008)

OzTenaka said:


> Does anyone have any idea about the "aftereffect" addition to some powers
> 
> Burrowing Projectile Attack 19 for example




Strangely, its not defined in the PHB, though it is in the MM.  Basically, it is an effect that happens after the initial effect has ended.  In your example, once the target saves against the first series of ongoing damage and the combat advantage, they start taking ongoing damage again until they make another save.


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## Shroomy (Jul 3, 2008)

Kaodi said:


> Maybe it is just me, but I do not really like it. I wonder if the other build that we do not get to see is more like the traditional artificer than this one. In any case, it seems strange that they get Ritual Casting for free, but they do not explictly gain Enchant Item and Disenchant Item automatically.




They can't, at least not at first level according to the RAW for mastering rituals, as Enchant Item is a 4th level ritual and Disenchant Item is a 6th level ritual.  Until 4th level, the artificer would have to rely on a scroll to perform these rituals.


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## Jack of Shadows (Jul 3, 2008)

Hmmm,

Did anyone else find Shielding Cube a little odd? Why do you think you need to have a range weapon in hand? All the effects seem to come from the artifice.

JoS.


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## Shroomy (Jul 3, 2008)

Jack of Shadows said:


> Hmmm,
> 
> Did anyone else find Shielding Cube a little odd? Why do you think you need to have a range weapon in hand? All the effects seem to come from the artifice.
> 
> JoS.




I was under the impression that you would use a crossbow or sling to launch the artifice.


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## Jack of Shadows (Jul 3, 2008)

Shroomy said:


> I was under the impression that you would use a crossbow or sling to launch the artifice.




Maybe,

If the range were the range of the weapon instead of a fixed 10. Also given that artificers are only proficient in daggers, javelins, crossbows and slings for ranged weapons only the sling would make any sense for doing that. Just doesn't wash for me. I suspect this was a vestigial reference to a previous incarnation of the ability that snuck past revision.

JoS.


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## portermj (Jul 3, 2008)

I think the idea of playtest articles has a lot of potential.


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## OzTenaka (Jul 3, 2008)

Shroomy said:


> Strangely, its not defined in the PHB, though it is in the MM. Basically, it is an effect that happens after the initial effect has ended. In your example, once the target saves against the first series of ongoing damage and the combat advantage, they start taking ongoing damage again until they make another save.





Thought that might have been the case.

Haven't really nailed down everything in the MM yet - but couldn't see it in the PHB so thought it must have been new


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## ProfessorCirno (Jul 3, 2008)

I'll post more later - maybe - but for now, I'll just say how infinitely amused I am that all these powers involve the artificer mixing up things or throwing out items...and that you'll never need to actually have them in your inventory at any time 


Edit:
Ok then, my thoughts.  All around, I think it's pretty solid, but it breaks my heart to see it shackled to the Powers system.  This class seems most of all to cry out for something else.  I'd have much preferred having the Artificer actually _make_ the items while traveling or whatnot and then use them during combat, with some of the abilities - such as the ones that effect your missile weapon - staying as actual spells/powers.  One of my friends labeled it as potentially a mix of Indiana Jones and Macguyver, which fits Eberron and how artificers are supposed to work perfectly.  All and all, this is probably my favorite class shown so far - and the one that makes me sigh in frustration at 4e the most.  I can only hope the "half finished" bit will get Wizards to lay off on the Powers and give us some crafted item goodness.  A faint, hopeless hope, perhaps, but one nonetheless.


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## Jindy (Jul 3, 2008)

I read through it quickly, but it looked pretty good to me.  I'd be curious to see how it works in game.



ProfessorCirno said:


> I'd have much preferred having the Artificer actually _make_ the items while traveling or whatnot and then use them during combat, with some of the abilities - such as the ones that effect your missile weapon - staying as actual spells/powers.




Maybe I'm completely off my rocker... but I thought the rules just set out the mechanics of what the artificer does.  Leaving the fluff up to the player.  What stops an artificer player from saying he spends down time tinkering?  Or that 5 minutes between encounters adjusting the items used during the fight?  Isn't that where the role playing comes in?  Do we need rules to tell us to role play?  And since the Artificer can take mundane items and tinker with them... there's really no shortage of tools available (all that mundane equipment on monsters that can't be sold suddenly has a purpose).


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## ProfessorCirno (Jul 3, 2008)

Jindy said:


> I read through it quickly, but it looked pretty good to me.  I'd be curious to see how it works in game.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I'm completely off my rocker... but I thought the rules just set out the mechanics of what the artificer does.  Leaving the fluff up to the player.  What stops an artificer player from saying he spends down time tinkering?  Or that 5 minutes between encounters adjusting the items used during the fight?  Isn't that where the role playing comes in?  Do we need rules to tell us to role play?  And since the Artificer can take mundane items and tinker with them... there's really no shortage of tools available (all that mundane equipment on monsters that can't be sold suddenly has a purpose).




Because irregardless of how much he tinkers on it, he can only use it once per encounter.  Or once per day.  Or because irregardless of how many he MAKES, he can only use one of them per day or one of them per encounter.

The Artificer in some ways puts me in mind of the Tinkerer from the WoW rpg (Yes, yes, I KNOW, I KNOW, stay with me).  It would often invent and create DOZENS of different gadgets, each useful in different occasions, and would switch between them while fighting or exploring.  That mix I mentioned earlier of Indiana Jones and Macguyver.  But this Artificer, because of the power system, is just a variant wizard.  There's nothing in it that suggests it actually making items.

Again, my complaint isn't with the class.  I LIKE the class.  My complaint is with the Powers system.


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## doctorhook (Jul 3, 2008)

Okay team, don't forget, we have a chance to help with this! If you see something that looks odd or wonky, write out a quick note to *dndinsider@wizards.com* with the subject line "Artificer Playtest Feedback". It won't take any longer than posting the same thing here, so do it.

I already sent one, regarding _Cannith Goggles_, one of the magic items at the end. I haven't actually played with this item yet, but using the standard litmus test of, "If you'd never use it, it's probably underpowered," I don't believe I'd ever expend a valuable encounter or daily power for darkvision, even to gain it until the end of my next extended rest; torches are cheap, even at 1st level, and every wizard can cast _light_ all day, every day, making darkvision seem kinda weak in my mind. Instead I suggested expending a healing surge to activate the item.

It's possible I'm totally wrong in my assessment, though I prefer to think I've done my part to help by submitting honest feedback. There's always lots of great ideas on these boards, so please don't forget to share them with the people who can use them![/sanctimoniousness]


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## Ximenes088 (Jul 3, 2008)

ProfessorCirno said:


> Again, my complaint isn't with the class.  I LIKE the class.  My complaint is with the Powers system.



By now, I'm sure you've repeatedly and exhaustively heard the reasons why 4e went with the Powers system it did. That being the case, I'm sure you understand that the designers wanted to ensure that PCs entering an encounter would always be within certain degrees of capacity, and would not be able to buff/prepare themselves grossly above their baseline capacity. Allowing an artificer to spend time out of combat in order to gain significant power in combat is directly contrary to this plan.

But if you want the Artificer to be able to do that, how would you recommend avoiding the problem that the Powers system tries to solve in the first place? How would you balance it so an Artificer could not simply spend a week at home brewing grenades and then spam Daily-sized attacks all through the adventure?


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## ProfessorCirno (Jul 3, 2008)

Ximenes088 said:


> By now, I'm sure you've repeatedly and exhaustively heard the reasons why 4e went with the Powers system it did. That being the case, I'm sure you understand that the designers wanted to ensure that PCs entering an encounter would always be within certain degrees of capacity, and would not be able to buff/prepare themselves grossly above their baseline capacity. Allowing an artificer to spend time out of combat in order to gain significant power in combat is directly contrary to this plan.
> 
> But if you want the Artificer to be able to do that, how would you recommend avoiding the problem that the Powers system tries to solve in the first place? How would you balance it so an Artificer could not simply spend a week at home brewing grenades and then spam Daily-sized attacks all through the adventure?




I'd argue that it's either a non-existing problem, or one that still hasn't been fixed.  The complaint with Vancian was that wizards could blast everything in one combat then just rest to do it again and again.  _That's still there_.  Artificers under the Powers system _already can_ spam Daily-sized attacks all through the adventure, just like every other class can; all they do is rest between fights.  *Which is, I should add, the exact same thing they'd have to do if they actually crafted and used the devices*.  Honestly, balance wise, there'd be little to no change there.


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## Rouens (Jul 3, 2008)

Shroomy said:


> I was under the impression that you would use a crossbow or sling to launch the artifice.




My opinion is that they switched a line with the other encounter power "Spike Wire" that makes more sense.


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## Khaalis (Jul 3, 2008)

Kaodi said:


> In any case, it seems strange that they get Ritual Casting for free, but they do not explictly gain Enchant Item and Disenchant Item automatically.



This is because they gain Make Whole (a 1st level ritual). Enchant Magic Item is a4th level ritual and Disenchant Magic Item is a 6th level ritual. You don't give out free higher level abilities/powers for free at 1st level.


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## Kobold Avenger (Jul 3, 2008)

I always pictured an artificer as using pistol due to the vaguely technomantic feel of the class.  And so many of the powers of this new artificer rely on ranged weapons.  Using only the stuff in the PHB you'd probably want to get proficient in bows right away.  Since they're mostly better weapons than crossbows.  Might make an alright conversion for my gunmage character in 4e, but I'm sure if there ever was an Iron Kingdoms 4e, a gunmage would be an arcane striker...

Anyways artificers as they were in Eberron, generally always struck me as the blastificer.  I sort of want the other build of artificer to be more charisma-based.  So maybe in a few ways we can go with the concept of (evil) overlord with an artificer.  In some cases I'm having a bit of a visualization problem picturing an artificer flinging components and things they put together with their implements.  I guess a rod could just suck up a prepared artifice and then spit it out.

Another thing that concerns me is what sort of support will this class (or even the Swordmage for that matter) get from a sourcebook like Arcane Power?  Since it seems the Eberron books are coming out after this.


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## Miar (Jul 3, 2008)

doctorhook said:


> I already sent one, regarding _Cannith Goggles_, one of the magic items at the end. I haven't actually played with this item yet, but using the standard litmus test of, "If you'd never use it, it's probably underpowered," I don't believe I'd ever expend a valuable encounter or daily power for darkvision, even to gain it until the end of my next extended rest; torches are cheap, even at 1st level, and every wizard can cast _light_ all day, every day, making darkvision seem kinda weak in my mind. Instead I suggested expending a healing surge to activate the item.
> 
> [/sanctimoniousness]




If I was DMing I might houserule these to be rechargeable with the Artificer's Arcane Replenishment.


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## Bagpuss (Jul 3, 2008)

Is it up, up? I can't find it on the website yet. The main page appears bust and the ToC is still showing the earlier edition.


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## Steely Dan (Jul 3, 2008)

Ximenes088 said:


> and would not be able to buff/prepare themselves grossly above their baseline capacity.





Yeah, the _burrow_, _barkskin_, _antiplant shell_, _clairvoyant sense_, _murderous mist_ thing really took the wind out of my sail as a DM – boring.

Basically, scry/buff/port/kill, but even more annoying.


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## Miar (Jul 3, 2008)

Bagpuss said:


> Is it up, up? I can't find it on the website yet. The main page appears bust and the ToC is still showing the earlier edition.





Umm follow the link in the first post


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## Rechan (Jul 3, 2008)

> I already sent one, regarding _Cannith Goggles_, one of the magic items at the end. I haven't actually played with this item yet, but using the standard litmus test of, "If you'd never use it, it's probably underpowered," I don't believe I'd ever expend a valuable encounter or daily power for darkvision, even to gain it until the end of my next extended rest; torches are cheap, even at 1st level, and every wizard can cast _light_ all day, every day, making darkvision seem kinda weak in my mind. Instead I suggested expending a healing surge to activate the item.



Actually, since practically _no one_ has darkvision, I'd argue that getting darkvision is pretty dang strong. 

Compared to more flashy powers, perhaps it is a little much. But do not turn thy nose up at darkvision.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jul 3, 2008)

Bagpuss said:


> Is it up, up? I can't find it on the website yet. The main page appears bust and the ToC is still showing the earlier edition.




Had the same problem, but the direct link on this board worked for me...


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## Bagpuss (Jul 3, 2008)

OzTenaka said:


> It clearly states in the "sidebar etc" that this is probably about 1/2 of the planned full class - Its shows the features and powers realting to the one build "Battlesmith"
> So if it seems a bit lacking on powers etc that would be why




Only two At-Will Powers means there is no point playtesting a Human Artificer.


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## Bagpuss (Jul 3, 2008)

Miar said:


> Umm follow the link in the first post




Well yeah but seeing as it is dated as yesterday's article it would have been nice if it was actually available without someone at ENWorld digging out the link.


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## Shroomy (Jul 3, 2008)

I sent my first email to WoTC last night.  I wanted clarification about powers that require a short rest duration, since they are new to the game; specifically, I wanted to know if the PC would gain the benefits of a short rest if they used the power.  Based on the PHB, I could see it both ways (though I personally lean towards "Yes, they do"), so it will probably be useful to include in the class feature description.


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## Scalding (Jul 3, 2008)

Although I have only just skimmed the article, there are two things I see about the artificer that worry me:

  The artificer may be just a bit _too_ good.  Power creep always happens in any game where things are added over time, because the bar of "ooh, shiny" is always being raised; however, I was hoping WotC would keep things in check a bit longer.

  The artificer appears to have a bit of Controller going on.  I've only skimmed the article, but my initial impression is that the artificer might step on the wizard's toes a bit.

I'd like to read other's thoughts on these points.


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## Nightchilde-2 (Jul 3, 2008)

Overall, I dig it.  My one real worry is the Rod of Deadly Casting.  Exploding 10s, even on crit damage, could get too ugly too fast.


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## Bagpuss (Jul 3, 2008)

Nightchilde-2 said:


> Overall, I dig it.  My one real worry is the Rod of Deadly Casting.  Exploding 10s, even on crit damage, could get too ugly too fast.




It compares with a Vorpal Sword, but that is ONLY a level 30 +6 enhancement item, the exploding isn't available at lower level. But it also applies to any die rolled with that weapon, not just on a critical.

I'm not sure about exploding dice at lower levels. It's *very *"swingy" and I thought 4th Ed was about removing those sort of factors. That make it hard to balance an encounter.


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## lightblade (Jul 3, 2008)

Bagpuss said:


> It compares with a Vorpal Sword, but that is ONLY a level 30 +6 enhancement item, the exploding isn't available at lower level. But it also applies to any die rolled with that weapon, not just on a critical.
> 
> I'm not sure about exploding dice at lower levels. It's *very *"swingy" and I thought 4th Ed was about removing those sort of factors. That make it hard to balance an encounter.




I don't see an exploding d10 or two being all that significant at lower levels; crits don't come often and the chance of significant extra damage from explosions isn't really that high.  Now, in the low epic levels, I can see a +4 Exploding Die Sword on a character with Heavy Blade Mastery doing some serious damage. But that's epic levels, and i think I'm OK with that.  It's a 5th+ level magic item, so you always need to say, well, do i want the +1 sword that rolls and exploding d10 on a crit, or do i want the +2 sword that does 2d6 on a crit and is only one level higher?


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## Rechan (Jul 3, 2008)

Scalding said:


> The artificer appears to have a bit of Controller going on.  I've only skimmed the article, but my initial impression is that the artificer might step on the wizard's toes a bit.



No more than the Paladin stepping on the cleric's toes. Compared to the wizard, the artificer has fewer abilities that do less damage to several opponents.

The real difference between the Wizard and the Artificer's area effect abilities are: Allies in the area get a mechanica benefit.


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## lightblade (Jul 3, 2008)

Best artificer right now is probably a Warforged, since they have a racial paragon path for the Leader role.  Any other race needs to take a multiclass feat to steal a paragon path from another class. Humans especially, as they only get their extra at-will power if they take all 4 multiclass feats and the multiclass option for another class. (Wizard and warlock are both attractive, depending on if the human took Con or Int as his stat bump)


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## doctorhook (Jul 3, 2008)

Scalding said:


> Although I have only just skimmed the article, there are two things I see about the artificer that worry me:
> 
> The artificer may be just a bit _too_ good.  Power creep always happens in any game where things are added over time, because the bar of "ooh, shiny" is always being raised; however, I was hoping WotC would keep things in check a bit longer.
> 
> ...



These sorts of concerns are precisely the reasons you should give 'em a quick playtest, then send your concerns off to *dndinsider@wizards.com*.

By providing the feedback WotC is asking for, we are the best possible defense against power creep; we've got a chance to improve things, here!


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## webrunner (Jul 3, 2008)

Scalding said:


> The artificer appears to have a bit of Controller going on.  I've only skimmed the article, but my initial impression is that the artificer might step on the wizard's toes a bit.
> 
> I'd like to read other's thoughts on these points.




Remember, there are already two leaders (now _three_), 3 strikers, and 2 defenders (now _three_ counting swordmage), but only one controller.

The Wizard, being the only Controller currently available, has substantially more 'leg room' then the other classes, so I don't think toe-stepping is really an issue.    It's more likely for a party to not have a controller, so it's okay if some of the other roles can do controllery-things, just in case you dont have a Wizard.


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## Ximenes088 (Jul 3, 2008)

ProfessorCirno said:


> Artificers under the Powers system _already can_ spam Daily-sized attacks all through the adventure, just like every other class can; all they do is rest between fights.



I'm not sure I follow you here. Are you saying they can spam Dailies each encounter if they spend a day resting between each? Given the absence of Rope Trick or easy Teleport, the feasibility of stopping for 18 hours after each fight is much less than it was for 3.5, and the limited role of Daily powers vis-a-vis 3.5 spells makes it that much less enticing.







> *Which is, I should add, the exact same thing they'd have to do if they actually crafted and used the devices*.  Honestly, balance wise, there'd be little to no change there.



What I'm taking away from this is that you don't believe there's any problem in PCs prebuffing their capacity, and therefore the entire Powers framework is irrelevant and should be scrapped in favor of mechanics that allow an Artificer to spend time out of combat to improve their capability in combat. The only question is how much they should be able to prebuff themselves. Is this a correct reading?


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## Bagpuss (Jul 3, 2008)

lightblade said:


> I don't see an exploding d10 or two being all that significant at lower levels; crits don't come often and the chance of significant extra damage from explosions isn't really that high.




But that's kind of my point, at low levels it won't happen often but when it does it will can make a significant difference. The Crit not only does max damage, but the 2d10 for example explodes, so you end up doing significantly more damage at a low level that is "swingy" for want of a better word.

At high levels it isn't so much of an issue if it explodes as your base damage is going to be so much higher anyway. Which is why I think Vorpal on swords was limited to an Epic level item. This Rod is introduced at the Heroic Tier.


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## Rechan (Jul 3, 2008)

See next page.


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## Bagpuss (Jul 3, 2008)

Is it me or does Reparation Apparatus combined with a Warforged Party members look a little strong? The only other item I can find in the PHB that does something similar is Symbol of Life but it does it's extra healing only as a daily, with the Reparation Apparatus it's a property so will effect every healing power a Cleric, Warlord or Artificer uses on a Warforged. It's a bit hard to judge since there are so few items to compare it against. 

A Warforged Fighter could use them on themselves with Comeback Strike, and even arguably something like Boundless Endurance.

I suppose since anyone can use them (on a Warforged) with any healing power they are at least balanced among the classes, it just means Warforged are now much better at being healed than any other race. To me that makes them unbalanced.


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## mmu1 (Jul 3, 2008)

It's not a terrible class - in fact, it's probably more interesting in some ways than the PHB classes, because of the powers it gets - but nothing about it screams "Artificer" to me. The veneer that differentiates it from some other kind of caster is so thin it might as well not even be there.

Right now, it seems like its best use would be as a place to steal powers from for use as Wizard spells, if you wanted to be able to create a Wizard that wasn't just an evoker.


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## small pumpkin man (Jul 3, 2008)

Scalding said:


> Although I have only just skimmed the article, there are two things I see about the artificer that worry me:
> 
> The artificer may be just a bit _too_ good.  Power creep always happens in any game where things are added over time, because the bar of "ooh, shiny" is always being raised; however, I was hoping WotC would keep things in check a bit longer.



Their damage seems _really_ low, and they mostly seem to give out bonuses/penalties not give/restrict actions, it might be just me, but I can't see them being anywhere near overpowered in a small group. They may well shine in large well organized groups, but I really can't see them dominating.


Scalding said:


> The artificer appears to have a bit of Controller going on.  I've only skimmed the article, but my initial impression is that the artificer might step on the wizard's toes a bit.



It does very much have a secondary controller role, but so does the Cleric and the Warlock, and from what we've seen, so does the Swordmage. It's kind of Arcana's schtick, and I'd only consider it a problem if you can point out how it's worse than with the cleric. (Because if you think the Cleric is also stealing the Wizard's thunder, that's a different discussion.)


Scalding said:


> I'd like to read other's thoughts on these points.


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## webrunner (Jul 3, 2008)

lightblade said:


> Best artificer right now is probably a Warforged, since they have a racial paragon path for the Leader role.  Any other race needs to take a multiclass feat to steal a paragon path from another class. Humans especially, as they only get their extra at-will power if they take all 4 multiclass feats and the multiclass option for another class. (Wizard and warlock are both attractive, depending on if the human took Con or Int as his stat bump)




It's an obvious choice, what with also the requirement of having an implement and a ranged weapon... too bad they cant use Orbs though, so they still have to cover both hands with attachments.

However, an Armbow, at least, doesnt need a free hand to load, and a Shoulderbow means you have a free hand....

The main problem is that the first Lifeseeker power is a Melee Weapon attack, which isn't really good for an Artificier.


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## Rechan (Jul 3, 2008)

Ho-lee crap. Something just occurred to me.

Gven many powers facilitate off a ranged weapon, the artificer as written makes for a great impromptu Arcane Archer class. Although less "Sniper" and more Gatlin Gunner; more of an "Arcane Commando". The image of a dwarf with a big crossbow kicking in the door and laying down magic-infused cover fire is very, very attractive. 

For that matter, it functions well as a more gadget-focused Batman class, a "James Bond with more toys".

(I switched this post from page 2 so folks would see it)


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## Vayden (Jul 3, 2008)

Bagpuss said:


> Is it me or does Reparation Apparatus combined with a Warforged Party members look a little strong? The only other item I can find in the PHB that does something similar is Symbol of Life but it does it's extra healing only as a daily, with the Reparation Apparatus it's a property so will effect every healing power a Cleric, Warlord or Artificer uses on a Warforged. It's a bit hard to judge since there are so few items to compare it against.
> 
> A Warforged Fighter could use them on themselves with Comeback Strike, and even arguably something like Boundless Endurance.
> 
> I suppose since anyone can use them (on a Warforged) with any healing power they are at least balanced among the classes, it just means Warforged are now much better at being healed than any other race. To me that makes them unbalanced.




Yeah, they do seem a little unbalanced, esp at low levels. I might push that item up to paragon tier, it seems more appropriate there.


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## Cadfan (Jul 3, 2008)

My only complaint is the whole "it takes 3 hands" thing.

The class gets access to simple ranged weapons, and has powers that trigger from ranged weapons.  This basically means crossbows, in context.  It also has a theme of "rune inscribed augmented weaponry," which is pretty cool, but again means you're using crossbows.

And then you're ALSO using implements.

I assume a crossbow requires two hands to load.  Implements take up one hand.

So there are a couple of things this could mean.

1. You aren't supposed to use implements and crossbows at the same time.  You create either a ranged weapon artificer (who carries around his custom designed pimped out magical crossbow and a quiver of arcane ammunitions), or you create an implement artificer.  But not both.  I think this would be rather lame.

2. The crossbow is shooting magical ammunition that's part of the crossbow's magical enhancement, and you fire it like a pistol without needing to reload it, so long as you're using artificer powers rather than mundane crossbow bolts.  With a pistolbow in one hand, and a magical rod in the other, you're like an arcane gunslinger.  I think this would be rather cool.

3. Its an oversight and needs fixed.

If the answer is 1 or 2, it should be spelled out clearly.

I'll email that to the response email address.


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## nobodez (Jul 3, 2008)

*My first read-through…*

It looks good, a lot like how I play my dwarven artificer in my home game. Sure, it's a bit of a letdown from the Bane (whatever I'm fighting) Personal Weapon Augmentation Archercifer of olde, but it seems fairly balanced.

I'd like to see a paragon path or two before I actually play it, though.

I like the Artifice powers.

And, it looks like this might be a cool Multiclass for an Int based class that wants ranged weapon powers. Heck, it's a nice alternative for the Archer ranger for the ranged weapon spot on the team.

Hmm, an Elf Artificer… (for those wanting a proper Archerficer with a bow and everything, though the racial bumbs might not be worth it)

Also, I think I've found an error. The Opening Sidebar lists all four types of implements (orbs, rods, staffs, wands), but the Implements and Weapons section only lists the last three implements (missing orb). If the Sidebar is right, then it might make a nice Wizard MC as well (Wizard into Artificer), esp. with the Orb implement Mastery.


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## Bagpuss (Jul 3, 2008)

Cadfan said:


> My only complaint is the whole "it takes 3 hands" thing.




You mean four hands, some powers have the keyword Artifice, which means you need a little dohicky, although I'm not sure ruleswise you actually need to handle it, it is certainly implied.


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## Kaodi (Jul 3, 2008)

Shroomy + Khaalis --> Perhaps I should have been more explict: Obviously you cannot give a level 4 and 6 ritual to a 1st level character, but my contention was that they do not get them for free... at levels 4 and 6. Furthermore, perhaps an Artificer should not even need a ritual book to use those two rituals.


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## Kobold Avenger (Jul 3, 2008)

It's probably a good class to use a repeating crossbow, and get quickdraw as a feat.  Save minor actions, though while the historical repeating crossbow did require 2 hands between shots, who knows what the one in the Adventurer's vault will be like.  

Somehow I feel there's got to be something in gameplay that supports the image of the artificer carrying around so many implements.  Something that gives them a slight advantage for having so many as opposed to one.  In one of the 3e Eberron books there was a dual-wand wielding feat that was overpowered, yet had a cool image.  Maybe something that just adds +2 damage.

What's confusing is spells that use an implement and ranged weapon in the attack.  Now an opportunistic player will probably try the crossbow with an "under-barrelled" wand mounted underneath (just like an assault rifle with a grenade launcher) but it certainly feels like a case of needing three arms.  I think they should clarify whether or not you need to spend a minor action to reload or if reload is part of the standard action when using many of their ranged weapon powers.


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## Bagpuss (Jul 3, 2008)

The hands thing might not be too much of an issue, you are only going to be using one power a turn, and in 4th Ed it's only a minor action to retrieve or stow an item.


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## Cadfan (Jul 3, 2008)

Bagpuss said:


> The hands thing might not be too much of an issue, you are only going to be using one power a turn, and in 4th Ed it's only a minor action to retrieve or stow an item.



The concern is for when half your powers use one item, and half use the other.

Lets say round 1, I want to use my crossbow.  Round 2, I want to use my wand.  Round 3, I want to use my crossbow again.  I start with my crossbow in my hand, but unloaded.

Round 1
Minor, load crossbow
Standard, fire crossbow
Move, whatever

Round 2
Minor, draw wand
Standard, use wand
Move, whatever

Round 3
Minor, stow wand
Minor, load crossbow
Standard, fire crossbow

You can switch from crossbow to wand easily, but it sucks to go from wand to crossbow.

Its just a whole lot of things to juggle, and it doesn't "feel" very cool.  Who wants to spend half their actions taking things out or putting them away?  Quickdraw fixes some of the problem, but you still end up doing the juggling dance, and that makes you less badass and more inventory-manager.

Also, heaven forbid one of your powers has "sustain minor" in it.


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## Scribble (Jul 3, 2008)

Cadfan said:


> My only complaint is the whole "it takes 3 hands" thing.
> 
> The class gets access to simple ranged weapons, and has powers that trigger from ranged weapons.  This basically means crossbows, in context.  It also has a theme of "rune inscribed augmented weaponry," which is pretty cool, but again means you're using crossbows.
> 
> And then you're ALSO using implements.




It's only a minor action to sheath or draw a weapon. So most likely you're only trading out a move action to switch up, or sheath your implement in order to load the bow.

Or just don't use an xbow. (since the others are load free...)


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## Bagpuss (Jul 3, 2008)

Cadfan said:


> The concern is for when half your powers use one item, and half use the other.
> 
> (snip nice example)




Hmm slightly better with Quick Draw and using only a hand crossbow, but still that's a bit of a pain just to use your class powers.

I definitely think some under-slung implement holder could be in order. It wouldn't really give much of an advantage to other implement using classes, but would stop the Artificer doing the hand-jive.


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## Vendark (Jul 3, 2008)

You don't _have_ to use a crossbow. The powers work fine with a sling or thrown weapon. It even says that thrown weapons used with an artificer's powers return automatically as if they were magic.

If you want to use a crossbow and don't want to be swapping out items, I'd avoid selecting powers that use implements as much as possible.


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## Cadfan (Jul 3, 2008)

Scribble said:


> Or just don't use an xbow. (since the others are load free...)



That doesn't actually help much, because they're still two handed weapons.  It does free up some actions, which is nice, but you're still going to end up in positions where you want to load and fire your hand crossbow, but you're holding a wand in one hand and the crossbow in the other, and you have to put away the wand to load the crossbow, then take it back out again.

Its not unbalancing.  At absolute worst, we're concerning ourselves with a few minor actions.  But its annoying.  With a hand crossbow and Quickdraw, you'll probably never even notice it mechanically, but in-game your character is switching things back and forth over and over.


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## Rechan (Jul 3, 2008)

Vendark said:


> You don't _have_ to use a crossbow. The powers work fine with a sling or thrown weapon. It even says that *thrown weapons used with an artificer's powers return automatically as if they were magic.*



Woah.

Although, I'll have to review the article. Area burst powers that make multi attacks might be difficult to use a single thrown weapon for.


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## Scribble (Jul 3, 2008)

Cadfan said:


> That doesn't actually help much, because they're still two handed weapons.  It does free up some actions, which is nice, but you're still going to end up in positions where you want to load and fire your hand crossbow, but you're holding a wand in one hand and the crossbow in the other, and you have to put away the wand to load the crossbow, then take it back out again.
> 
> Its not unbalancing.  At absolute worst, we're concerning ourselves with a few minor actions.  But its annoying.  With a hand crossbow and Quickdraw, you'll probably never even notice it mechanically, but in-game your character is switching things back and forth over and over.




Eh... yeah I definitely see your point.


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## Haffrung Helleyes (Jul 3, 2008)

Well, I have not digested the rules well enough to say whether it's a good class, but I really do like the playtest format, and the fact that they're previewing it online.  Assuming they're really paying attention to feedback, this is potentially a big improvement!

Ken


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jul 3, 2008)

Cadfan said:


> My only complaint is the whole "it takes 3 hands" thing.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> I'll email that to the response email address.




Sounds like a good idea!

But maybe one of the new races is the Thri-Keen, and he will be able to fully use this class!


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## webrunner (Jul 3, 2008)

Rechan said:


> Woah.
> 
> Although, I'll have to review the article. Area burst powers that make multi attacks might be difficult to use a single thrown weapon for.




The ones that make multi attacks are presented more like "explosions" arcing from the single throw (carrying the effect) and not throwing more than one item



Regarding the Three Hands thing: There's also Dancing Weapon which is "implement, weapon" which needs a _melee_ weapon.

Thinking on it, it would be helpful if Artificers got the effect of quick draw (Without the init bonus) for free.  Or, conversely, a "quick stow", an an opposite of quick draw (and with quick draw lets you switch for free all day) All the pictures of the Artificers have half a dozen or more weapons and implements sticking out of their pack, and the one on the last page is even being shown removing an item from their pack.  It seems obvious that item-swapping is one of the main features of the class, otherwise they wouldn't show it so prominently.  But the class, as written, has this as a drawback instead of a benefit..


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## Vendark (Jul 3, 2008)

If you really find Artificer's item swapping to be a difficulty, just give them a rote for swapping items, similar to the mage hand cantrip.


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## Bagpuss (Jul 3, 2008)

I could imagine them with a magical mechanical arm holding their implement for them.


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## Atlatl Jones (Jul 3, 2008)

Khaalis said:


> This is because they gain Make Whole (a 1st level ritual). Enchant Magic Item is a4th level ritual and Disenchant Magic Item is a 6th level ritual. You don't give out free higher level abilities/powers for free at 1st level.



No, but you can give our free higher level abilities at higher levels.  Wizards get free rituals at levels 5, 11, 15, 21, and 25.  I don't see why Artificers shouldn't get three extremely important rituals at levels 4, 5, and 6 (I'm including Brew Potion as well as Enchant Magic Item and Disenchant Magic Item.)

Making magic items is what Artificers do.  It's what defines them as a class, so it should be a class ability.  I especially like Kaodi's idea that Artificers don't even need to have these rituals in a ritual book to cast them.


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## Atlatl Jones (Jul 3, 2008)

Bagpuss said:


> I definitely think some under-slung implement holder could be in order. It wouldn't really give much of an advantage to other implement using classes, but would stop the Artificer doing the hand-jive.



That's a really cool idea. A crossbow with an underslung rod or wand is a great image. 

Alternately, they could create a magic crossbow that also functions as an implement, similar to a pact blade.



Bagpuss said:


> I could imagine them with a magical mechanical arm holding their implement for them.



There's an artificer magic item in 3.5 that does exactly that. In 4e it could be a Belt-slot item that holds one magic item, and allows you to switch an item you hold for the extra magic item as a free action once per round.


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## Scribble (Jul 3, 2008)

Bagpuss said:


> I could imagine them with a magical mechanical arm holding their implement for them.




Why am I suddenly envisioning a cybernetic michael jackson...


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## Vendark (Jul 3, 2008)

Something else to consider...we've been discussing this as if this pretest build is a complete, stand-alone build, but we don't really know if that's the ultimate intent...it could instead be a hybrid of what will eventually be two separate builds. In other words, the final version might separate the Implement Artificer and the Ranged Weapon Artificer into distinct builds.


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## RandomCitizenX (Jul 3, 2008)

Atlatl Jones said:


> No, but you can give our free higher level abilities at higher levels.  Wizards get free rituals at levels 5, 11, 15, 21, and 25.  I don't see why Artificers shouldn't get three extremely important rituals at levels 4, 5, and 6 (I'm including Brew Potion as well as Enchant Magic Item and Disenchant Magic Item.)
> 
> Making magic items is what Artificers do.  It's what defines them as a class, so it should be a class ability.  I especially like Kaodi's idea that Artificers don't even need to have these rituals in a ritual book to cast them.




The more I think about it, the more I agree that they should get those rituals for free, maybe at the cost of the free 1st level bonus ritual.


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## DylanCB (Jul 3, 2008)

*Handbows*

Er, handbows are load free, ya know. And plus, at most levels, you can choose purely weapon based powers. So, easy handbow slinger. If you miss and match, you can still hold an implement in one hand. The crossbow doesn't deal that much more damage than the handbow. Not seeing the problem.

Although, no playtesting humans, oh well.


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## IanArgent (Jul 3, 2008)

I was suprised to not see an "Artificer's Bow" item property a la "Pact Blade":

Artificer's Weapon- Level 3+
(see pact blade for costs per bonus - I'm lazy)
*Weapon:* Ranged or Thrown (usually crossbows or daggers)
*Enhancement:* Attack Rolls and Damage Rolls
*Critical:*+1d6 damage per plus
*Property:* This weapon functions as an artificer implement, adding its enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls for artificer powers that use implements
*Special:* You do not gain your weapon proficiency bonus to the attack roll when using an _Artificer's Weapon_ as an implement

Less powerful (loses the pact blade's second property) but more flexible than an pact blade. This is important since most thrown weapons double as melee weapons. Artificers will still want to have "proper" implements (particularly wands, from which they can loot wizard and warlock spells) for the dailies; but no longer _need_ to have both a weapon and an implement.


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## ProfessorCirno (Jul 4, 2008)

Ximenes088 said:


> I'm not sure I follow you here. Are you saying they can spam Dailies each encounter if they spend a day resting between each? Given the absence of Rope Trick or easy Teleport, the feasibility of stopping for 18 hours after each fight is much less than it was for 3.5, and the limited role of Daily powers vis-a-vis 3.5 spells makes it that much less enticing.




I'm not saying that it's easier, simply that it can _still happen_, and that the big difference is that now all classes can do it.



> What I'm taking away from this is that you don't believe there's any problem in PCs prebuffing their capacity, and therefore the entire Powers framework is irrelevant and should be scrapped in favor of mechanics that allow an Artificer to spend time out of combat to improve their capability in combat. The only question is how much they should be able to prebuff themselves. Is this a correct reading?




Yes and no.  I'm saying that there's no power difference between an Artificer who uses his downtime to make the gadgets and an Artificer who uses the downtime to replenish all their powers, except that one Artificer has more choices as to what gadgets to make and how many then the other.  The Artificer could technically, I grant you, just burst down ALL of his gadgets and awesome abilities all in one combat, but they he couldn't do the same in any combat afterwards until resting.  The thing is, he can _already do that_ under the Powers system - there's nothing stopping him from slamming down all his Dailies in one fight.

That's why I hate the Powers system, or at least one of the reasons.  It's still Vancian casting, only now EVERYONE has it, and they've removed some options to make sure you don't "make the wrong decisions."  Now mages can't use all their fireballs or whatnot in one combat and be stiffled on the next, because that would be a bad decision on their behalf.  But I don't like how _they aren't given that choice_.  That's my gripe with Artificer.  The Powers system really stifles the gadgettering.  Instead of the James Bond/Macguyver "Don't worry, I've totally got a tool for this somewhere," it's more "Well, sorry guys, but I chose to learn how to throw wire instead or cubes.  Can't help you there."


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## Goobermunch (Jul 4, 2008)

Bagpuss said:


> I could imagine them with a magical mechanical arm holding their implement for them.




You mean like this?







--G


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## Ximenes088 (Jul 4, 2008)

ProfessorCirno said:


> I'm saying that there's no power difference between an Artificer who uses his downtime to make the gadgets and an Artificer who uses the downtime to replenish all their powers, except that one Artificer has more choices as to what gadgets to make and how many then the other.  The Artificer could technically, I grant you, just burst down ALL of his gadgets and awesome abilities all in one combat, but they he couldn't do the same in any combat afterwards until resting.  The thing is, he can _already do that_ under the Powers system - there's nothing stopping him from slamming down all his Dailies in one fight.



Slamming down all his dailies consists of three attack powers. Four, if he's 20th+ level. The system was designed so that it's not possible to burst one encounter with far greater efficiency than the baseline. Either the Artificer shares this basic principle and cannot burn all his mojo at once to gain +10 effective levels, or he can do it, and the only argument is about how much more awesome he can be than any other PC if he's willing to be commensurately crippled afterwards.

D&D has tried the concept of a PC who has a magical solution to every problem, provided he's prepared his magical objects beforehand. It was the wizard and his scroll library. In 4e, Batman is dead, and I don't see any indication that WotC is going to bring him back.



> That's why I hate the Powers system, or at least one of the reasons.  It's still Vancian casting, only now EVERYONE has it, and they've removed some options to make sure you don't "make the wrong decisions."  Now mages can't use all their fireballs or whatnot in one combat and be stiffled on the next, because that would be a bad decision on their behalf.  But I don't like how _they aren't given that choice_.  That's my gripe with Artificer.  The Powers system really stifles the gadgettering.  Instead of the James Bond/Macguyver "Don't worry, I've totally got a tool for this somewhere," it's more "Well, sorry guys, but I chose to learn how to throw wire instead or cubes.  Can't help you there."



Precisely. And that's exactly how it's supposed to be, a lesson learned painfully through the course of past D&D history. It's wonderfully fun to have a PC who has a magical solution for every problem... for that PC's player. The rest of the party tends to be somewhat less enthusiastic about every jam being fixed by the spellcaster. The artificer has some tricks unique to him and a healthy amount of flexibility in his skills and the scope of his abilities, but he is not and ought not to be the Bat-Utility Belt for the party.


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## ProfessorCirno (Jul 4, 2008)

I'm not saying the Artificer needs the bat utility belt and the ability to solve any problem in the game.  I'm saying the Artificer should use artificed items.  Seriously, there's a spot between "THIS CHARACTER CAN DO ANYTHING IN THE WORLD" and "THIS CHARACTER CAN NEVER DO ANYTHING."

I want the artificer to be able to decide while making the items if he wants to make a whole lot of cubes, a whole lot of wires, or maybe a little bit of both.  Unfortunately, the powers don't look like he's tinkering or making magical items at all; they're just _variant spells_.  In the end, _nothing about most of these abilities have anything to do with artifices._  If the fluff didn't say "You use x item," you wouldn't be able to tell most of these abilities apart from the wizard's.  Because while it's nice that the fluff says "you use/throw/whatever x item," it's JUST in the fluff - nothing in the mechanics uses it.  And sure, one out of every four or so of the items involved an artifice, but they came out of nowhere - they just apparently magically appeared in your hand just for that.  I can see why people found it irritating to keep track of arrows and such, easily, but this is getting pretty rediculous.


To bring back up the WoW d20's tinkerer, they had an enormous number of different tech items they could create and use, and if you wanted one that wasn't in the book, they gave you the rules to make your own.  But the tinkerer wasn't godly or omnipowerful, because there were limitations put on them, such as how much they could carry - both the items AND their fuel, if they could afford it (those items got REALLY expensive, both to make, buy, or keep functional.  Or all three), if they could use it in the first place with their skill levels, if they could MAKE it in the first place with their tinkerer levels...the list goes on.

The Artificer, on the other hand, is limited by...the Powers system.  He can't use the cube more then once because..._just because_, apparently.  Again, the Powers system just makes him into a variant wizard.


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## Andor (Jul 4, 2008)

Ximenes088 said:


> By now, I'm sure you've repeatedly and exhaustively heard the reasons why 4e went with the Powers system it did. That being the case, I'm sure you understand that the designers wanted to ensure that PCs entering an encounter would always be within certain degrees of capacity, and would not be able to buff/prepare themselves grossly above their baseline capacity. Allowing an artificer to spend time out of combat in order to gain significant power in combat is directly contrary to this plan.
> 
> But if you want the Artificer to be able to do that, how would you recommend avoiding the problem that the Powers system tries to solve in the first place? How would you balance it so an Artificer could not simply spend a week at home brewing grenades and then spam Daily-sized attacks all through the adventure?




Easy. Those items the artificer makes between encounters need to be maintained and the Artificer can only maintain so many. In other words his abilty to create different items lets him select different powers for each encounter when he needs to, not build up a stack of encounter or daily powers. His toolbox then becomes the Artificers equivilent to the Wizard's spellbook, allowing him to change his power mix as certain intervals.


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## Ximenes088 (Jul 4, 2008)

ProfessorCirno said:


> I'm not saying the Artificer needs the bat utility belt and the ability to solve any problem in the game.  I'm saying the Artificer should use artificed items.  Seriously, there's a spot between "THIS CHARACTER CAN DO ANYTHING IN THE WORLD" and "THIS CHARACTER CAN NEVER DO ANYTHING."
> 
> I want the artificer to be able to decide while making the items if he wants to make a whole lot of cubes, a whole lot of wires, or maybe a little bit of both.  Unfortunately, the powers don't look like he's tinkering or making magical items at all; they're just _variant spells_.  In the end, _nothing about most of these abilities have anything to do with artifices._  If the fluff didn't say "You use x item," you wouldn't be able to tell most of these abilities apart from the wizard's.  Because while it's nice that the fluff says "you use/throw/whatever x item," it's JUST in the fluff - nothing in the mechanics uses it.



Yes, because thou shalt not balance crunch with fluff. At least according to a design philosophy I'm wholly in favor of. What you're essentially asking for is for artificers to have an arbitrarily large range of powers limited only by prep time and a particular number of slots. Again, _that has been done_. To try it again... well, the lady's position has been identified, we're just haggling over price.

What you're asking for has nothing to do with fluff, it has to do with the basic game-mechanical results of an artificer's abilities. If you let artificers develop their own gadgets, they've got access to an arbitrarily large range of gear. Therefore, what it comes down to mechanically is a character that can create an arbitrarily large range of results with adequate prep expenditure, limited to a specific number of slots at any one time. It is _exactly_ the same thing as a 3.5 wizard, right down to the exact same slot system filled with preset or player-researched "spells". The most you can try to do at that stage is keep the "spells" down to a dull roar, and good luck with that when the character's design space consists of "magic or technology".


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## Ximenes088 (Jul 4, 2008)

Andor said:


> Easy. Those items the artificer makes between encounters need to be maintained and the Artificer can only maintain so many. In other words his abilty to create different items lets him select different powers for each encounter when he needs to, not build up a stack of encounter or daily powers. His toolbox then becomes the Artificers equivilent to the Wizard's spellbook, allowing him to change his power mix as certain intervals.



Equivalent to the wizard, except better in every way. A wizard can only change his spellbook suite when he levels up, and then only to a limited extent. Is this artificer going to be able to add an arbitrarily large number of gadgets to his tech manual? What's going to stop him from purpose-building a plausibly powerful gadget that just happens to be exactly what he needs for a given combat or noncombat situation? Maybe it costs gold... well, all right- how do you balance it? Nobody else can simply buy new powers, particularly ones they can acquire without losing any of their current abilities.

Really, what's so special about artificers that they should get an entire power structure of superior versatility that no other class gets? Fluff is fluff. I'm not willing to give the artificer a pass to Batman-belt wearer simply because his fluff says that he's a great technician as well as a great arcanist. An artificer already has great versatility in the sphere expected to be used to deal with noncombat situations- skills and rituals. If he wants it to be more technomagical, he can just fluff out his skills with devices, and use his Thaumo-Resonant Lock Picking Wand when he rolls his Thievery check.


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## mhacdebhandia (Jul 4, 2008)

ProfessorCirno said:


> I want the artificer to be able to decide while making the items if he wants to make a whole lot of cubes, a whole lot of wires, or maybe a little bit of both.  Unfortunately, the powers don't look like he's tinkering or making magical items at all; they're just _variant spells_.



The Third Edition artificer's infusions were just as much variant spells, so . . . since it was a fun class . . . I don't see the issue.

You want a gadgeteer who can do anything he knows how to do all the time. Fine. But that's not the artificer, and it ain't gonna be.


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## stonegod (Jul 4, 2008)

Right now, all the powers do static effects for the most part---there is little variability built into them. I think a system that is power based but had more versatility in its effect would address some of these concerns. Of course, making it balance against the rest of the more fixed effect system would be the challenge.


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## ProfessorCirno (Jul 4, 2008)

Ximenes088 said:


> Yes, because thou shalt not balance crunch with fluff. At least according to a design philosophy I'm wholly in favor of. What you're essentially asking for is for artificers to have an arbitrarily large range of powers limited only by prep time and a particular number of slots. Again, _that has been done_. To try it again... well, the lady's position has been identified, we're just haggling over price.
> 
> What you're asking for has nothing to do with fluff, it has to do with the basic game-mechanical results of an artificer's abilities. If you let artificers develop their own gadgets, they've got access to an arbitrarily large range of gear. Therefore, what it comes down to mechanically is a character that can create an arbitrarily large range of results with adequate prep expenditure, limited to a specific number of slots at any one time. It is _exactly_ the same thing as a 3.5 wizard, right down to the exact same slot system filled with preset or player-researched "spells". The most you can try to do at that stage is keep the "spells" down to a dull roar, and good luck with that when the character's design space consists of "magic or technology".




First and foremost, I'm using tinkerer as an _example of varried abilities.  I'm not saying that's how the Artificer is supposed to be.  I'm saying that it makes an example on how many different ways you can limit a class without using the Powers system.

Nor am I saying that the Artificer should be able to craft anything and everything it desires.

I'm saying that, when you look at the artifice powers, they should be things the artificer actually crafts to use in combat, not that they come out of nowhere and vanish again once they've been used.  I know this will just devolve into SIMULATIONIST versus GAMIST when I say this, but the Powers system puts completely arbitrary limits on the Artificer by saying "You can't learn how to shoot wire or cubes.  Because those are the rules I just made up."

If the Powers system does have to be used, I liked someone's earlier idea in I believe another thread involving the wizard's spell book.  Instead of MAGIC DISAPPEARING INK, the wizard gets a bonus to his versatility in that spells he scribes stays there and he doesn't have to wait a level to "respec" what spells he knows.  The Artificer could be the same - During the eight hour or however long rest, he can dissemble certain objects and ressemble others.  It's not a fix I really LIKE, as I'd rather just cut out the Powers system to begin with, but it's one I can work with.



mhacdebhandia said:



			The Third Edition artificer's infusions were just as much variant spells, so . . . since it was a fun class . . . I don't see the issue.

You want a gadgeteer who can do anything he knows how to do all the time. Fine. But that's not the artificer, and it ain't gonna be.
		
Click to expand...



Again, I'm using the tinkerer as an example.  I know how infusions worked, and I've got *no problems* with many of the Artificer spells in 4e, though I dislike how they use the Powers System.  Hell, I love the psuedo arcane-commando archery stuff, and at the beginning of this thread I flat out stated that the Artificer so far is my favorite of all the 4e classes we've been shown.  My issue is with the spells that use artifice that just seem to pop out of nowhere and fall under the arbitrary "You can't use this because that's what the rules say."_


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## Andor (Jul 4, 2008)

Rechan said:


> Ho-lee crap. Something just occurred to me.
> 
> Gven many powers facilitate off a ranged weapon, the artificer as written makes for a great impromptu Arcane Archer class. Although less "Sniper" and more Gatlin Gunner; more of an "Arcane Commando". The image of a dwarf with a big crossbow kicking in the door and laying down magic-infused cover fire is very, very attractive.
> 
> ...




Heh. I already wrote up an Arcane Archer Prestige Path for them and fired it off as playtest feedback.


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## Andor (Jul 4, 2008)

Ximenes088 said:


> Equivalent to the wizard, except better in every way. A wizard can only change his spellbook suite when he levels up, and then only to a limited extent. Is this artificer going to be able to add an arbitrarily large number of gadgets to his tech manual? What's going to stop him from purpose-building a plausibly powerful gadget that just happens to be exactly what he needs for a given combat or noncombat situation? Maybe it costs gold... well, all right- how do you balance it? Nobody else can simply buy new powers, particularly ones they can acquire without losing any of their current abilities.




You misunderstood. It's exactly equivilent to the wizards spellbook. The wizard gets to pick his daily powers by means of choosing which spell to memorize from a short list of spells he has available in his book. The artificer gets to pick his daily powers by building an arcane widget from a short list of available schemata. It's the same thing with different fluff. Perhaps you should try breathing into a paperbag until the hyperventilation passes?


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## Ximenes088 (Jul 4, 2008)

Andor said:


> In other words his abilty to create different items lets him select different powers for each encounter when he needs to, not build up a stack of encounter or daily powers.



...does not sound to be...



> You misunderstood. It's exactly equivilent to the wizards spellbook.




The wizard cannot swap dailies/utilities between encounters. If you're going to recommend a tweak, I suggest you be careful about the terminology you use if you want to be understood correctly- selecting "different powers for each encounter" is not the same thing as "changing daily and utility powers only, only an extended rest, and only from a limited subset of the available powers".


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## Andor (Jul 4, 2008)

Ximenes088 said:


> ...does not sound to be...
> 
> 
> 
> The wizard cannot swap dailies/utilities between encounters. If you're going to recommend a tweak, I suggest you be careful about the terminology you use if you want to be understood correctly- selecting "different powers for each encounter" is not the same thing as "changing daily and utility powers only, only an extended rest, and only from a limited subset of the available powers".




True, but I didn't present a fleshed out system, merely the way it could be done. You'll also note I said 'At a certain interval' since you could easily balance it around switching daily powers after an extended rest ala the Wizard or swapping an encounter power after a short rest to be different. 

You could also do something like:

*Temporary Enchantment* Artificer Utility 6
Encounter * Short Rest, Weapon or Implement
_With a few moments you can prepare an ally's weapon for the fight ahead._

Until the end of the next encounter one weapon or implement of your choice is considered to have the Fire, Cold, Lightning, or Force keywords and deals damage of that type. You must handle the object to imbue this effect.


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## Scribble (Jul 4, 2008)

ProfessorCirno said:


> I'd have much preferred having the Artificer actually _make_ the items while traveling or whatnot and then use them during combat, with some of the abilities - such as the ones that effect your missile weapon - staying as actual spells/powers.  One of my friends labeled it as potentially a mix of Indiana Jones and Macguyver, which fits Eberron and how artificers are supposed to work perfectly.  All and all, this is probably my favorite class shown so far - and the one that makes me sigh in frustration at 4e the most.  I can only hope the "half finished" bit will get Wizards to lay off on the Powers and give us some crafted item goodness.  A faint, hopeless hope, perhaps, but one nonetheless.




That's essentially what it's doing. It's just tied into the powers system.

The ones that utilize the weapons are powers the Artificer has imbued into or through his weapon. The rune inscribed part happened at the beginning of the day (as it says) after an extended rest.  Others are unique items inscribed at the start of the day as well.

If your argument is just against the powers system, that's a valid viewpoint, but I'm not sure that this is the particular thread to make it.


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## IanArgent (Jul 6, 2008)

Do it mechanically like the Wizard's spellbook. Possibly also allow utilities to be swapped after an extended rest.

However, not yet... Remember, we have only half the class right now - if you did it mechanically like the wizard's spellbook, the artificer as it stands woudn't have as many interesting choices. I hope that the final version has the same kind of flexibility as the wizard.


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## Dalamar (Jul 6, 2008)

If there needs to be a mechanical distinction made to show that Artificers "craft" their powers, then just saying that an artificer can't use abilities that target allies on creatures that were not present during the last extended rest would settle that without affecting most games but still having that unique flavour.
Similarly, requiring that a weapon was present when the artificer took a short rest to show how the items were prepared to be used with the powers.


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## Novem5er (Jul 6, 2008)

My biggest problem with the Artificer is that many of the powers indicate that he is enchanting his ally's equipment, instantaneously, and at range.


Mechanically, it matches what many other classes do, however, it doesn't feel like an artificer to me.

Thundering Armor, for example. From a range of 10, you give an ally a +1 to AC and also make an attack on an adjacent enemy.

Okay, very similar to the Cleric, who attacks a distant enemy, but also grants an ally some bonus. Got it. But I didn't know Artificers could enchant items from 50' feet away. I also didn't know they could enchant items instantaneously, over and over again.

I'm really okay with game mechanics being used to balance combat, characters, and roles, in sake of pure fluff. However, these kinds of powers just don't seem "artificer" to me.

Maybe I need a fluff change to the powers. Instead of waving a wand and instantly enchanting an ally's armor (from 50' away), maybe the Artificer can throw a globe of thunder at an ally? The globe hits the ally, encases him/her in a shield of thunder, and also makes an attack on an enemy. See, then the Artificer is "making" these globes and hurling them through the air... as opposed to waving a wand and instantly enchanting armor (from 50' away).

But... I see the mechanical problem with this. When does he actually make the globes? How many can he make at one time? Couldn't he then give a globe to someone else to throw? Could an Artificer throw a globe at the ground, producing an attack, but no AC bonus?

See, the Powers system is suddenly constricting options. Obviously it must do so in the name of balance, but I never really felt it until now.

I'll try to re-flavor the Thundering Armor power anyway. Let's keep everything the same, except for these modifications:

- Thunder Globes - the effect is now created by a globe of force that is hurled at an ally.

- Components - The globes are created during any rest, and the Artificer can create as many as are needed, given that he has his "components" on him.

-The globes still get Implement bonuses, but that is determines upon creation, not the attack. The Artificer uses his implement when creating the globe, and the effects carry over into the attack.

-The globes could also be tossed at the ground (targeting an open square). Thus, an Artificer can directly attack an enemy, but nobody would get the AC bonus.

-The globes cannot be shared. The globes are dormant until the Artificer completes the enchantment as he throws them.


What do you think?


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## Deverash (Jul 6, 2008)

What if instead of changing daily spells after extended rests, they instead learned 2 encounter powers, and could swap them out after each short or extended rest?  That might be more what he was looking for, and personally I think that'd be cool, without being overly powerful.


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## Saurdaux (Jul 6, 2008)

*Alternate Implement*

Regarding the three hands problem, I'd like to see them use the artifices as their implement. Give them a few categories to specialize in like how a wizard can choose wand, orb, or staff. Maybe *trap*,* device*, and *construct*. Within each category, you could make any number of different kinds that have differing uses, but roughly equal potency. A trap might add an ongoing effect, a device could enhance the range or potency of an ability, and a construct could add an extra attack in addition to serving as the delivery mechanism for a spell.

Using Spike Wire as an example, you could use it with a bear trap that adds an additional slow effect, a launching device which gives it an increased area of effect, or a ram construct which makes a little charge attack on one target while affecting the area with the wire.

An Artificer could carry a number of different gadgets for different circumstances, providing a versatile bag of tricks. To balance it out, there could be a limit on how many they could carry, with some of the more potent artifices expending upon use (power drains, explodes, etc.), while others are permanent but less powerful.


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## Scribble (Jul 6, 2008)

Novem5er said:


> My biggest problem with the Artificer is that many of the powers indicate that he is enchanting his ally's equipment, instantaneously, and at range.
> 
> 
> Mechanically, it matches what many other classes do, however, it doesn't feel like an artificer to me.
> ...




I see it as the Artificer is so attuned to the "science" of how magic, and magic items work that he can temporarily cause an item to manifest magic properties that emulate real magic items. He's not powerful enough to actually make a full blown magic item, instantly, and at a distance, but he can make a temporary one.

Then again, I never played in eberron, nor did I ever read the original class, so I guess I'm not the best judge.


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## Cat Moon (Jul 7, 2008)

Sweet. Never was into the whole Eberron scene, but I really liked the Artificer class. Glad to see it make the transition to 4E fairly quickly.


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