# How long is a long time ago, and how far is far, far away?



## Morrus (Mar 22, 2017)

Did Star Wars take place in Andromeda 200 years ago, or some galaxy billions of light years away billions of years ago?

And what has happened to that galaxy since? How's it doing now, a long time later?


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## Janx (Mar 22, 2017)

This is the kind of excellent question I miss from this sub-forum.

As I understand it, the universe is about 14 billion years old (or is it trillion).  And earth is 4.5 billion years old.  Assuming nothing exceeded the speed of light, that makes the universe about 28 billion light years wide at best.

Now for children, when grandpa was a child is "a long time ago", and anywhere it takes half a day to drive is "far, far away"

So I would use MorrusMath(TM) based on his advanced knowledge of StarWars Physics to compute how far the Millenium Falcon can get that either takes half  day to get there or about 20-30 years.

Odds are good it is the Andromeda Galaxy.

Now, I don't want to spoil anything, but I happen to know that after the last great battle not yet televised in our galaxy, when a Commander Drehpehs sacrificed her life and chose whether to unify the Light and the Dark or to eliminate one or the other, things changed dramatically.  Also, before that point in their history, they sent a special ship called the Suxen to a neighboring galaxy to start a new space station colony there, followed by a series of ark ships.  Only one ark made it, and arrived to find the Suxen damaged and in disarray.


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## Tonguez (Mar 22, 2017)

Morrus said:


> Did Star Wars take place in Andromeda 200 years ago, or some galaxy billions of light years away billions of years ago?
> 
> And what has happened to that galaxy since? How's it doing now, a long time later?




I thought is was 25th Century Earth refugees getting caught in a timewarp to Andromeda's past


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Mar 22, 2017)

1.21 gigaparsecs


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## Morrus (Mar 22, 2017)

Janx said:


> This is the kind of excellent question I miss from this sub-forum.
> 
> As I understand it, the universe is about 14 billion years old (or is it trillion).  And earth is 4.5 billion years old.  Assuming nothing exceeded the speed of light, that makes the universe about 28 billion light years wide at best.




Not quite. Nothing can move through space faster than light, but space itself can (and did) expand faster than light. For that reason, the observable universe is actually 47 billion light years across, not 28 billion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observable_universe

That, of course, is just the observable universe. We don't know what lies outside that sphere, though we assume it's more of the same. Beyond that horizon certainly qualifies as "a long way away", but then so does Andromeda a mere 2.5 million light years away.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 23, 2017)

> How long is a long time ago, and how far is far, far away?




I don't know, but Larry King got his big break in broadcasting there.


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## Dioltach (Mar 26, 2017)

They say for Americans 200 years is a long time ago, and for Europeans 200 miles is far, far away.


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## Morrus (Mar 26, 2017)

Dioltach said:


> They say for Americans 200 years is a long time ago, and for Europeans 200 miles is far, far away.




I've never heard anybody actually say that. I've heard people *claim* that people say it about a million times though.

It's a fairly silly saying. Whoever came up with it originally has much to answer for.

(Cue compulsory anecdote from American who had some wide-eyed European visitors who had never seen a map and were SHOCKED at the distances!)


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## Tonguez (Mar 26, 2017)

Morrus said:


> I've never heard anybody actually say that. I've heard people *claim* that people say it about a million times though.
> 
> It's a fairly silly saying. Whoever came up with it originally has much to answer for.
> 
> (Cue compulsory anecdote from American who had some wide-eyed European visitors who had never seen a map and were SHOCKED at the distances!)




 Apparently it was Earl Hitchner who is a music journalist specializing in Irish Music, so yeah his knowledge of geography may be open to question. That said, coming from nation where the entire length of the country can be driven across in two days (including the ferry ride) I can well understand the sentiment.

BTW the quite is "The difference between America and England is that Americans think 100 years is a long time, while the English think 100 miles is a long way."


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## Morrus (Mar 26, 2017)

Tonguez said:


> Apparently it was Earl Hitchner who is a music journalist specializing in Irish Music, so yeah his knowledge of geography may be open to question. That said, coming from nation where the entire length of the country can be driven across in two days (including the ferry ride) I can well understand the sentiment.




Nobody drives 2 days to work in either country. The length of the country only counts if you're going to cross it.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 26, 2017)

Morrus said:


> I've never heard anybody actually say that. I've heard people *claim* that people say it about a million times though.
> 
> It's a fairly silly saying. Whoever came up with it originally has much to answer for.
> 
> (Cue compulsory anecdote from American who had some wide-eyed European visitors who had never seen a map and were SHOCKED at the distances!)



That would be me.  Had some friends of friends planning a coast-to-coast (NYC to San Francisco) road trip in the USA who had allocated just over 2 weeks time.  They had NOT looked at the distances involved.  Fortunately, we managed to clear things up for them.

As for commuting to work, I have some friends driving from Durant, OK to D/FW, TX- @95 miles 1 way.  Both work for the police, one as a dispatcher, one as an officer.  So they both need to drive when they're on the clock, since they may not get off duty while the trains are running.

And there was a radio DJ- Tom Joyner?- who worked at a Dallas station and an Atlanta station simultaneously...but he was taking flights, not driving.


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## Morrus (Mar 26, 2017)

> As for commuting to work, I have some friends driving from Durant, OK to D/FW, TX- @95 miles 1 way.




That's my point. Two people just in my Thursday night game commute to London and back, nearly a hundred miles away, every day. It's perfectly normal. Tons of people do that without thinking twice. I don't think that's far at all. I've gone twice that for lunch with somebody. Excepting a few corner cases, nobody travels so far on a daily basis that they would run out of space in even the smallest countries in the world. The extra space doesn't count if you're not using it! Most people in the world travel about the same distances. Except those homebodies who never leave their own town, but they exist everywhere too.


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## Tonguez (Mar 26, 2017)

I suppose you do have a point that nobody is doing it on a daily basis, but it does come up occasionally - mostly during holidays I do know a guy delivering specialty vegetables though who does 540 miles from Melbourne to Sydney twice a week.

(My brother also did Sydney to Perth (2500 miles) once - and vowed never to do it again)


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 26, 2017)

The nasty thing for my friends is that:

1) they are always driving at least one leg during rush hour, and

2) they have 2 kids under 14.  

Somehow, they've conned grandma into being live-in child care.  Don't know how long THAT will last- she misses the big city.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 26, 2017)

Tonguez said:


> I suppose you do have a point that nobody is doing it on a daily basis, but it does come up occasionally - mostly during holidays I do know a guy delivering specialty vegetables though who does 540 miles from Melbourne to Sydney twice a week.
> 
> (My brother also did Sydney to Perth (2500 miles) once - and vowed never to do it again)




To be fair, I would exclude those for whom driving IS their job.  I have cousins who are truckers, for instance, who rack up hundreds of miles daily.


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## Jhaelen (Mar 27, 2017)

Morrus said:


> Nobody drives 2 days to work in either country.



And what does that have to do with anything?
I've been impressed by the distances you can be away from one of the major cities in Australia and South Africa far more than in the US.

Anyway,  [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION]: So what exactly was the point of this thread?


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## Morrus (Mar 27, 2017)

Jhaelen said:


> And what does that have to do with anything?




That the oft quoted saying is a bit silly.



Jhaelen said:


> Anyway,  [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION]: So what exactly was the point of this thread?




It is about _Star Wars_ and where/when the movies are set. It seems it got derailed!


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 27, 2017)

Jhaelen said:


> And what does that have to do with anything?
> I've been impressed by the distances you can be away from one of the major cities in Australia and South Africa far more than in the US.




That really depends on what you count as a major city...


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## Tonguez (Mar 27, 2017)

Jhaelen said:


> And what does that have to do with anything?
> I've been impressed by the distances you can be away from one of the major cities in Australia and South Africa far more than in the US.




yeah its mind blowing to think that with regard to the hunt for gas and water in the Outback,Mad Max is virtually a documentary - dry, flat and empty desert, tiny, desperate fuel depots scattered at 200 mile intervals and the occasional Barter town were you least expect it



> Anyway,  [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION]: So what exactly was the point of this thread?




When did Star Wars happen?

Is the thing about Chewbacca being the Sasquatch canon?


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## Ryujin (Mar 27, 2017)

Morrus said:


> I've never heard anybody actually say that. I've heard people *claim* that people say it about a million times though.
> 
> It's a fairly silly saying. Whoever came up with it originally has much to answer for.
> 
> (Cue compulsory anecdote from American who had some wide-eyed European visitors who had never seen a map and were SHOCKED at the distances!)




How about a Canadian stating that he had Cuban government workers visit who were confused as to why they couldn't spend the morning in Niagara Falls and the afternoon in Montreal?


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## Morrus (Mar 27, 2017)

Ryujin said:


> How about a Canadian stating that he had Cuban government workers visit who were confused as to why they couldn't spend the morning in Niagara Falls and the afternoon in Montreal?




Were they intellectually impaired? Or were they children? How on earth could somebody not understand basic geography? It's not rocket science! I guess if they were just kids that might help explain it, but otherwise it's quite inane.


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## Ryujin (Mar 27, 2017)

Well for "A long time ago" we would have to go back to something pre-Cylon Earth, so 5000+ years ago. "...in a galaxy far, far away" is a little tougher, since hyperdrive works at the speed of plot. If they have several movies to work through on the trip, it's galaxies away. If they can get here in a single scene, it's Polaris.


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## Ryujin (Mar 27, 2017)

Morrus said:


> Were they intellectually impaired? Or were they children? How on earth could somebody not understand basic geography? It's not rocket science! I guess if they were just kids that might help explain it, but otherwise it's quite inane.




They were political appointees in their 30s and 40s. I suppose the "political appointee" part answers your question.


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## Morrus (Mar 27, 2017)

Ryujin said:


> They were political appointees in their 30s and 40s. I suppose the "political appointee" part answers your question.




You'd have thought government workers would be more informed, not less. Ah well!


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## Morrus (Mar 27, 2017)

Ryujin said:


> Well for "A long time ago" we would have to go back to something pre-Cylon Earth, so 5000+ years ago. "...in a galaxy far, far away" is a little tougher, since hyperdrive works at the speed of plot. If they have several movies to work through on the trip, it's galaxies away. If they can get here in a single scene, it's Polaris.




I dunno - its not like they have to travel here. They stay within their own galaxy a long way away, wherever that is.

Well, except for at the end of _Empire Strikes Back_ where they stand looking out of a window at the entire galaxy from outside it.


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## Ryujin (Mar 27, 2017)

Morrus said:


> You'd have thought government workers would be more informed, not less. Ah well!




The leader of the delegation was seemed to be far more interested in finding a Harley Davidson dealership than he was in discussing trade, at the time, so that might give you an idea about where their heads were.



Morrus said:


> I dunno - its not like they have to travel here. They stay within their own galaxy a long way away, wherever that is.
> 
> Well, except for at the end of _Empire Strikes Back_ where they stand looking out of a window at the entire galaxy from outside it.
> 
> View attachment 82750




If "far, far away" isn't in relation to the viewer, us, presumably on Earth, then the term would be rather meaningless 

We're talking at least another galaxy so I guess the question is, (speed of plot) "Is it a single movie or multi-movie distance away?" Since the plot of 7 movies hasn't brought them anywhere near us yet, I would say, "far, far away" is indeed very very far away. Like 'the other side of the universe' far away, as we don't seem to enter into the plot at all.


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## Morrus (Mar 27, 2017)

Ryujin said:


> If "far, far away" isn't in relation to the viewer, us, presumably on Earth, then the term would be rather meaningless
> 
> We're talking at least another galaxy so I guess the question is, (speed of plot) "Is it a single movie or multi-movie distance away?" Since the plot of 7 movies hasn't brought them anywhere near us yet, I would say, "far, far away" is indeed very very far away. Like 'the other side of the universe' far away, as we don't seem to enter into the plot at all.




I don't really understand what you're getting at. They don't travel between galaxies in Star Wars - they just stay in the one galaxy. Which is far, far away.

It can be far, far away without them having to travel here.


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## Ryujin (Mar 27, 2017)

Morrus said:


> I don't really understand what you're getting at. They don't travel between galaxies in Star Wars - they just stay in the one galaxy. Which is far, far away.
> 
> It can be far, far away without them having to travel here.




Clearly my joke based on "speed of plot" has fallen flat, so I'll give up.


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## trappedslider (Mar 27, 2017)

Ryujin said:


> Well for "A long time ago" we would have to go back to something pre-Cylon Earth, so 5000+ years ago.




Or maybe...It's really taking place here ""All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again"


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## Ryujin (Mar 27, 2017)

trappedslider said:


> Or maybe...It's really taking place here ""All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again"




Well if so, then their Cylons are pretty damned clunky.


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## cmad1977 (Mar 27, 2017)

And then here in L.A. Distance is measured by time.
How far away is your place from the beach? 
20 minutes. 
No how far...
Doesn't matter. Right now it's 20 minutes away. In the summer it's closer to 45.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Mar 27, 2017)

It's probably just a fairy tale opening... "Once upon a time, there was a lovely princess..."


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## Morrus (Mar 27, 2017)

trappedslider said:


> Or maybe...It's really taking place here ""All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again"




But here isn't a galaxy a long way away.


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## Ryujin (Mar 27, 2017)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> It's probably just a fairy tale opening... "Once upon a time, there was a lovely princess..."




Yeah, we all know what inbreeding does to the look of the average princess.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Mar 28, 2017)

Morrus said:


> But here isn't a galaxy a long way away.




Well... since Galaxies are moving through space, a long time ago also means it was far away. (Of course, that's stretching the interpretation of a long way away)


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## Tonguez (Mar 28, 2017)

Ryujin said:


> Yeah, we all know what inbreeding does to the look of the average princess.




aw don't be mean to Beatrice


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## Ryujin (Mar 29, 2017)

Tonguez said:


> aw don't be mean to Beatrice




I'll name no names.


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## Eltab (Apr 2, 2017)

Morrus said:


> Well, except for at the end of _Empire Strikes Back_ where they stand looking out of a window at the entire galaxy from outside it.



There are too many stars in the background; they are still in their own galaxy.
I thought they were looking at a star with a dust ring around it.


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## MarkB (Apr 2, 2017)

Given that even the nearest galaxy to us is millions of light years away, just saying "another galaxy" would be sufficient - you wouldn't have to phrase it as "far, far away". Since it is phrased that way, the added emphasis on the distance could be intended to imply that it's a long way even as intergalactic distances are measured. So at least several times as far away as the nearest galaxy, maybe even as far away as a different galaxy cluster.

"Long ago" has no particular emphasis placed upon it, but the saga takes place over the course of decades, so it should be sufficiently long ago that the time passing within the storyline doesn't particularly impact that - otherwise Episode I would be "long ago" and Episode VII would be "a short time ago". So, could be anywhere up to billions of years, but most likely no less than multiple centuries.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Apr 2, 2017)

Morrus said:


> I dunno - its not like they have to travel here. They stay within their own galaxy a long way away, wherever that is.
> 
> Well, except for at the end of _Empire Strikes Back_ where they stand looking out of a window at the entire galaxy from outside it.
> 
> View attachment 82750




From Wookiepedia:

"The Episode II DVD-ROM Exclusive Content states that "the cluster known as the Rishi Maze may be the bright object that Luke and Leia stare at at the end of The Empire Strikes Back." However, Leland Chee confirmed on the StarWars.com Message Boards that the object seen in Episode V is the Star Wars galaxy,[3] despite this requiring the Rebel fleet to have traveled a very long distance from the galaxy. However, such a travel is possible according to the Outbound Flight Project led by Jedi Master Jorus C'baoth. The Rebel fleet could also be in the Rishi Maze during this scene, and thus able to view the main galaxy from outside."

The Rishi Maze, formally known as Companion Aurek, was one of the seven satellite dwarf galaxies that orbited the galaxy proper.


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## MarkB (Apr 2, 2017)

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> From Wookiepedia:
> 
> "The Episode II DVD-ROM Exclusive Content states that "the cluster known as the Rishi Maze may be the bright object that Luke and Leia stare at at the end of The Empire Strikes Back." However, Leland Chee confirmed on the StarWars.com Message Boards that the object seen in Episode V is the Star Wars galaxy,[3] despite this requiring the Rebel fleet to have traveled a very long distance from the galaxy. However, such a travel is possible according to the Outbound Flight Project led by Jedi Master Jorus C'baoth. The Rebel fleet could also be in the Rishi Maze during this scene, and thus able to view the main galaxy from outside."
> 
> The Rishi Maze, formally known as Companion Aurek, was one of the seven satellite dwarf galaxies that orbited the galaxy proper.




A large factor in plotting and flying hyperspace routes in the Star Wars universe is finding safe, fast courses around major gravity wells. So it's entirely possible that once you get out into intergalactic space away from any gravity wells, hyperspatial travel could become significantly faster and easier.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 2, 2017)

MarkB said:


> A large factor in plotting and flying hyperspace routes in the Star Wars universe is finding safe, fast courses around major gravity wells. So it's entirely possible that once you get out into intergalactic space away from any gravity wells, hyperspatial travel could become significantly faster and easier.




But then wouldn't there be more mention of travel between galaxies? Is extra-galactic travel actually something trivial and we're just focusing on the Star Wars equivalent of Europe?


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## MarkB (Apr 2, 2017)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> But then wouldn't there be more mention of travel between galaxies? Is extra-galactic travel actually something trivial and we're just focusing on the Star Wars equivalent of Europe?




Even if it's faster that doesn't trivialise the massive gulf between galaxies. And a large portion of the pre-Disney Expanded Universe concerns an intergalactic invasion.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Apr 2, 2017)

Since Star Wars is science fantasy that operates along the lines of "a space wizard did it", consistent conclusions are pretty hard to draw.

Still, given how hyperdrives supposedly work, for long trips across the galaxy it might actually make more sense to jump out of the galaxy (perpedicular to the ecliptic) to get to an area of low star density, then cross the galactic disk, then jump back down toward the plane of the galaxy, rather than jumping through more dense space.


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## Kaodi (Apr 3, 2017)

Well, if you woke up at 2 AM, spent 3 hours seeing the sights, then drove like 10 hours, and spent like 3 hours seeing the sights, I think you would be done in time before "evening" ? ; ) 

In the Summer of '97 my family went on a road trip from our Home a bit West of Kingston, Ontario (which is at the mouth if the St. Lawrence) all the way to Campbell River (which is in the midsection of Vancouver Island) . Granted, we did a lot of sightseeing along the way, but we allocated a whole month for that.


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## Viking Bastard (Apr 4, 2017)

I kinda like to think the SW universe is set in the distant past of the Stargate Universe. The dark side users eventually win (as the "the Ori") and kick the light side users (the Alterans) out of the SW galaxy, who come here and seed the Milky Way and Pegasus galaxies in their image.

Now, the Alterans' trip here apparently took millions of years, and their home galaxy is generally considered to be in a different super-cluster, so in that case SW takes place an incredibly long time ago and quite a bit a distance away.


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## Tonguez (Apr 4, 2017)

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> Since Star Wars is science fantasy that operates along the lines of "a space wizard did it", consistent conclusions are pretty hard to draw.
> 
> Still, given how hyperdrives supposedly work, for long trips across the galaxy it might actually make more sense to jump out of the galaxy (perpedicular to the ecliptic) to get to an area of low star density, then cross the galactic disk, then jump back down toward the plane of the galaxy, rather than jumping through more dense space.




We know that large objects can pull ships out of hyperspace and as the Hyperspace lanes also seem to be fixed routes between planets/stars maybe they actually need gravity wells to stabilise their paths and ports - jumping out of a galaxy would essentially leave most craft adrift in hyperspace without a gravity anchor to provide an exit.It's a plausible limitation and explains why SW stars intra galactic


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## Mirtek (Apr 6, 2017)

Actually it's not that far away as far as interstellar distances are concerned. In E.T. we see our titular alien point at a kid with a Yoda mask and shout "home, home". In EP1 we see members of E.T.'s species as part of the republican senate. So E.T.'s homeworld is already in the Star Wars Galaxy.


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## doctorbadwolf (Apr 6, 2017)

Morrus said:


> Nobody drives 2 days to work in either country. The length of the country only counts if you're going to cross it.




Are you...arguing that people from different places don't have different ideas of what constitutes "a long time ago" and "far away"?

Bc southern Californians and Central Valley Californians have wildly different ideas about what "far" means, and about what a "long drive" is, both in terms of distance and time. 

And yeah, the idea of driving 150 miles (My place to Santa Barbara) or almost 300 miles (Vegas) one way as a casual weekend trip, or is mind boggling to my English cousins, but 100% a normal part of life for most people here. And they certainly have a different attitude about what "a long time ago" means in terms of historical events, how old buildings and institutions are, etc. 

People around here are surprised and impressed to learn that my High School is ~115-120 years old. My European friends and family, not nearly so much. 

The saying, like any popular saying about people, isn't, and isn't meant to be, 100% accurate of all people. But it makes a valid observation.


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## Morrus (Apr 6, 2017)

doctorbadwolf said:


> And yeah, the idea of driving 150 miles (My place to Santa Barbara) or almost 300 miles (Vegas) one way as a casual weekend trip, or is mind boggling to my English cousins, but 100% a normal part of life for most people here.




I'm English. It does not boggle my mind in the slightest. My parents live 120 miles away and I drive there and back in a day without any thought. My parents drive from Bristol to Dartmouth (similar distance) to spend a weekend in their chalet there like every other weekend, and it's 149 miles away. MY brother lives in Nottingham, 172 miles away, and I don't worry about driving there to visit him. My wife and I like to do weekends in Rome (well, midweek as its quieter), so we also happily catch flights to travel 1200 miles for a weekend. I can't speak for your cousins, but to think of them as mind-boggled by these distances makes them very unusual.


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## doctorbadwolf (Apr 7, 2017)

cmad1977 said:


> And then here in L.A. Distance is measured by time.
> How far away is your place from the beach?
> 20 minutes.
> No how far...
> Doesn't matter. Right now it's 20 minutes away. In the summer it's closer to 45.




And they think a 20 minute drive is a fricken imposition! Getting people to drive half an hour for lunch is like pulling teeth!


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## doctorbadwolf (Apr 7, 2017)

Morrus said:


> I'm English. It does not boggle my mind in the slightest. My parents live 120 miles away and I drive there and back in a day without any thought. My parents drive from Bristol to Dartmouth (similar distance) to spend a weekend in their chalet there like every other weekend, and it's 149 miles away. MY brother lives in Nottingham, 172 miles away, and I don't worry about driving there to visit him. My wife and I like to do weekends in Rome (well, midweek as its quieter), so we also happily catch flights to travel 1200 miles for a weekend. I can't speak for your cousins, but to think of them as mind-boggled by these distances makes them very unusual.




Lol ok, Morrus. Your experiences and biases are totally the norm.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 7, 2017)

doctorbadwolf said:


> And they think a 20 minute drive is a fricken imposition! Getting people to drive half an hour for lunch is like pulling teeth!




Depends on where you're working, though.  When I (breeeeeifly) worked in a certain subsection of T.I.'s legal department, we had a 30 minute lunch break.  Because of our physical position in the building, it was 10-15 minutes to walk to the campus cafeteria or to the parking lot.

Our department Head pushed back when some of the veeps complained about us eating at our desks.


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## Morrus (Apr 7, 2017)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Lol ok, Morrus. Your experiences and biases are totally the norm.




I'm telling you straight out that my experiences are perfectly normal here, and that that is something about which I am better informed than you are.*Save*​*Savej*​*Save**Save**Save**Save*​


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## doctorbadwolf (Apr 7, 2017)

Morrus said:


> I'm telling you straight out that my experiences are perfectly normal here, and that that is something about which I am better informed than you are.




These forums need a better eye roll emoji. 

At least you edited your post so that it doesn't accuse me of making claims I clearly haven't made. 

I'll go ahead and not discount the experiences and attitudes of over a dozen people just because you have a strong confirmation bias on the notion that others think like you.


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## doctorbadwolf (Apr 7, 2017)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Depends on where you're working, though.  When I (breeeeeifly) worked in a certain subsection of T.I.'s legal department, we had a 30 minute lunch break.  Because of our physical position in the building, it was 10-15 minutes to walk to the campus cafeteria or to the parking lot.
> 
> Our department Head pushed back when some of the veeps complained about us eating at our desks.




Veeps are the worst.  

They're like regional managers in retain chains. Just. The. Worst. 

Anyway, yeah, it's often quite understandable, it's just frustrating, because I grew up in Bakersfield and, to a lesser extent, Santa Barbara, and in Bakersfield especially, it's completely normal to drive 20-30 minutes for nothing at all important. I figure it's a matter of traffic being stressful, and warping perceptions. 

Also, Bakersfield is terrible. Not sure how that is relevant, but it always bears stating.


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## trappedslider (Apr 10, 2017)

This side discussion about distances reminded me of this from tumblr


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 10, 2017)

To be fair, it doesn't matter how long you drive in Australia, you're still stuck there. 

Canadians can at least...Escape to New York!


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## Janx (Apr 10, 2017)

Morrus said:


> I'm telling you straight out that my experiences are perfectly normal here, and that that is something about which I am better informed than you are.*Save*​*Savej*​*Save**Save**Save**Save*​




Maybe it's a matter of social strata or go-ability of some folks?  You mentioned a chalet or popping over to Rome.  I'm middle class and I don't know anybody with a chalet.  While I do know some folks who pop around the country/state with some ease, that's not the norm here.

Maybe plane tickets are cheaper in the EU?  It'll cost me $1000 per person to get to someplace significant, and I'm in a major city.

There's also logistics of family.  My friend who pops around the state quite a bit is hauling 2 kids + wife.  Me, I got a wife and dog, and since the dog can't come with, an hour drive, means +2 hours drain on the time we can be away unless I can wrangle somebody to let the dog out.  Plus the wife is spendy, so going somewhere means shopping.  Not going somewhere means saving money.  Result is, in my family culture, staying put is the norm.

I have no idea of what's normal for people in the UK or EU.  I imagine a mix.  Mobile people like Morrus, and rather "fixed" people.  Odds are good, Morrus's social circle is more people like himself (obviously by virtue of what you're saying, but I'm also thinking of filtering).

I would imagine, for anybody who does travel freely, that they don't see any barriers to it, and thus might not be aware or even imagine that anybody else might have barriers to travel.


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## Morrus (Apr 10, 2017)

Janx said:


> Maybe it's a matter of social strata or go-ability of some folks?  You mentioned a chalet or popping over to Rome.  I'm middle class and I don't know anybody with a chalet.




It's basically what you would call a trailer. They downsized when us kids left home and bought that when they retired. It's worth less than their car. They are by no means middle class.



> While I do know some folks who pop around the country/state with some ease, that's not the norm here.




Maybe the saying should be reversed then!


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## Janx (Apr 10, 2017)

Morrus said:


> It's basically what you would call a trailer. They downsized when us kids left home and bought that when they retired. It's worth less than their car. They are by no means middle class.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe the saying should be reversed then!




Probably so.  I'd also ponder when the saying came about.  Pre-EU?  Pre-tunnel to France?

Without science, I could see that a portion of US or UK population travels a lot and  a portion doesn't.  And each portion might be large enough to seem like it "covers everybody" if that's all you talk to.

And I know for some people, mobility has increased.  My in-laws raised 4 kids and probably never left the state of WI.  Once the mom-in-law got a degree (when my wife went to college), and all her kids moved out, they were off to Florida, Hawaii, even visited us in TX.  Now, the mom-in-law's been to New Zealand and NY even.  That's a crazy shift from staying put to getting out.  largely influenced by money and family restrictions.

We've gotten very off track.  Sorry.  I have heard that UK/EU folks are highly mobile across countries (thanks to the UK) likely due to the EU open border thing.  I am sure there are fuddy-duddies like me though, who "no, we can't nip off to XYZ-land, for reasons..."


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## Morrus (Apr 11, 2017)

Janx said:


> Probably so.  I'd also ponder when the saying came about.  Pre-EU?  Pre-tunnel to France?




Dunno. I was a kid back then. I'm talking about now.



> And I know for some people, mobility has increased.  My in-laws raised 4 kids and probably never left the state of WI.  Once the mom-in-law got a degree (when my wife went to college), and all her kids moved out, they were off to Florida, Hawaii, even visited us in TX.  Now, the mom-in-law's been to New Zealand and NY even.  That's a crazy shift from staying put to getting out.  largely influenced by money and family restrictions.




Having a family isn't a geographical unique phenomenon, though. Everybody has families. That's just human life.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 11, 2017)

_HUMAN?_

Uh oh- I'm on the wrong comm network!


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## Morrus (Apr 11, 2017)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> _HUMAN?_
> 
> Uh oh- I'm on the wrong comm network!




Nobody ever accused you of being human, Danny!


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## Janx (Apr 11, 2017)

Morrus said:


> Dunno. I was a kid back then. I'm talking about now.
> 
> 
> 
> Having a family isn't a geographical unique phenomenon, though. Everybody has families. That's just human life.




You're not relating to the story bud, and it's kinda frustrating.

My example is of a family, not just them, but then entire chain of their family that was classic never moved far from home.  Their economic situation changed, and that's when people who likely would have never gone anywhere did.  Another trigger is they made friends with other people who were travellers.  It was like something was unlocked in them and they left the cradle of humanity.


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## jimmifett (Apr 12, 2017)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> To be fair, I would exclude those for whom driving IS their job.  I have cousins who are truckers, for instance, who rack up hundreds of miles daily.




I drive about 180 miles daily round trip to get to/from work. Thankfully I have a nice desk and nice couch waiting at both ends.


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## Beleriphon (Apr 16, 2017)

I think the biggest thing with travel in the UK and EU in general versus North America is the sheer size of the highway network. I haven't driven in the UK so I'll leave that to Morrus to describe, but I wanted to go on a trip from the south all the way to north and do it in a car its going to take a few days. If want to drive from Vancouver to Prince Edward Island (there's a bridge!) then I'm doing that in no less than five days if there's is somebody to drive 24 hours a day. If I were to stop to sight see, or sleep, it would take around 2 weeks.

A quick comparison to travel between countries: Berlin to Rome according to Google Maps is about 1500km, that travels through three countries total. Ottawa to Mexico City on the other hand is 4500km and also includes three countries worth of travel, its also a 7.5hour flight. That's why people tend to comment on how far away things are in North American compared to Europe. Even cities are laid out differently, since its often faster to get on a controlled access highway than it is to travel in a city.


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## Morrus (Apr 16, 2017)

Beleriphon said:


> I think the biggest thing with travel in the UK and EU in general versus North America is the sheer size of the highway network. I haven't driven in the UK so I'll leave that to Morrus to describe, but I wanted to go on a trip from the south all the way to north and do it in a car its going to take a few days. If want to drive from Vancouver to Prince Edward Island (there's a bridge!) then I'm doing that in no less than five days if there's is somebody to drive 24 hours a day. If I were to stop to sight see, or sleep, it would take around 2 weeks.
> 
> A quick comparison to travel between countries: Berlin to Rome according to Google Maps is about 1500km, that travels through three countries total. Ottawa to Mexico City on the other hand is 4500km and also includes three countries worth of travel, its also a 7.5hour flight. That's why people tend to comment on how far away things are in North American compared to Europe. Even cities are laid out differently, since its often faster to get on a controlled access highway than it is to travel in a city.




And if I wanted to drive to Beijing, that's about 9000km and would take 3 weeks. I'm not clear what the point is there. We can all come up with potential long journeys!


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## Beleriphon (Apr 16, 2017)

Morrus said:


> And if I wanted to drive to Beijing, that's about 9000km and would take 3 weeks. I'm not clear what the point is there. We can all come up with potential long journeys!




My point was more that as a resident in Europe you can travel pretty quickly country to country, and in fact travel through multiple nations in the same distance it would take me to get through the Unite States. It gives a different sense of scale when you drive through the United States for 3000km and its the same country, versus driving 3000km across Europe. Things seem farther apart when you start crossing national borders compared to just driving across the same nation with the same language and the same road signs.


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## Morrus (Apr 16, 2017)

Beleriphon said:


> My point was more that as a resident in Europe you can travel pretty quickly country to country, and in fact travel through multiple nations in the same distance it would take me to get through the Unite States. It gives a different sense of scale when you drive through the United States for 3000km and its the same country, versus driving 3000km across Europe. Things seem farther apart when you start crossing national borders compared to just driving across the same nation with the same language and the same road signs.




I don't think invisible lines affect your sense of scale unless you make them. It's not like truck drivers don't make those multi-country journeys regularly. All that matters is how far you're driving.

Nobody's saying that the US isn't physically large. Just that our minds aren't "boggled" by its size, as folks keep telling us they are. We're fully cognizant of it!


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## doctorbadwolf (Apr 16, 2017)

Morrus said:


> I don't think invisible lines affect your sense of scale unless you make them. It's not like truck drivers don't make those multi-country journeys regularly. All that matters is how far you're driving.




To you, perhaps. 

To other people, it changes the perception. Why isn't really relevant to a discussion of whether it happens.


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## doctorbadwolf (Apr 16, 2017)

Double post.


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## Beleriphon (Apr 16, 2017)

Morrus said:


> I don't think invisible lines affect your sense of scale unless you make them. It's not like truck drivers don't make those multi-country journeys regularly. All that matters is how far you're driving.
> 
> Nobody's saying that the US isn't physically large. Just that our minds aren't "boggled" by its size, as folks keep telling us they are. We're fully cognizant of it!




I don't doubt that. I am curious though what's the farthest you've ever been without finding a petrol station in Europe? Or a town? I think that's the kind of thing that gets these sorts of comments, more than literal distance.


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## Morrus (Apr 16, 2017)

Beleriphon said:


> I don't doubt that. I am curious though what's the farthest you've ever been without finding a petrol station in Europe? Or a town? I think that's the kind of thing that gets these sorts of comments, more than literal distance.




Europe is certainly more densely populated, I'll give you that. We've filled it up!


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## Beleriphon (Apr 16, 2017)

Morrus said:


> Europe is certainly more densely populated, I'll give you that. We've filled it up!




I know you have, I did mean that as a genuine question though. I haven't ever driven through the Europe so I have no experience at all about what its like, and all of my travel experience in the UK is via TARDIS. I can't imagine seeing a sign that says next petrol station 350KM in the UK. I'm used to that in Canada, and its still scary to find those in a tiny car with a small gas tank.

For crazy fun though density in Japan is just nuts. Canada has as many people in the whole country as Tokyo does in just one city. I took the subway there during rush hour. That was interesting to say the least.


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## Samloyal23 (Apr 26, 2017)

In one of the Indiana Jones movies we see a hieroglyphic portrayal of C3P-0 and R2-D2. Forget about how they ended up on Earth, they did it at least 3,000 years ago! THAT is a "long ago" in this context. So the most like scenario is the two droids had to eject from a ship on a life-pod just like they did at the beginning of Episode 4, but ended up falling through a transgalactic wormhole that drop them off in our solar system, where they crash landed on Earth in the vicinity of ancient Egypt. Assuming Professor Jones later found the two droids and was able to reactivate them, they must have learned enough English to tell him the Saga of the Whills. Jones' notes on the epic tale would have eventually been lost, but somehow ended up in the hands of a young film director, George Lucas, who used them as the basis of his film Star Wars...


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