# A TSR Announces a Star Frontiers Reboot



## Omand (Jun 22, 2021)

Well, I would have thought that WotC still held the copyright and trademark.

Perhaps not?

Cheers


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## CharlesWallace (Jun 22, 2021)

I loved this game as a kid! That first adventure where you're chasing the bad guy through the streets in hovercars or whatever.. that was so fun! And then, even better- Crash on Volturnus! Be still my beating heart! ❤


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## Morrus (Jun 22, 2021)

Omand said:


> Well, I would have thought that WotC still held the copyright and trademark.
> 
> Perhaps not?



Apparently not.



			TESS -- Error


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## darjr (Jun 22, 2021)

Oh no


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## darjr (Jun 22, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Apparently not.
> 
> 
> 
> TESS -- Error



Session expired


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## darjr (Jun 22, 2021)

Do you think using the actual WotC owned art asset is a good idea?


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## VelvetViolet (Jun 22, 2021)

They should hire Arne Niklas Jansson. Star Frontiers


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## Morrus (Jun 22, 2021)

darjr said:


> Session expired



There's a screenshot in my OP.


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## Morrus (Jun 22, 2021)

darjr said:


> Do you think using the actual WotC owned art asset is a good idea?



I'm no lawyer, but I'd imagine not? Dunno!


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## Arilyn (Jun 23, 2021)

For some reason you saying, "One of the TSRs" makes me giggle.


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## Morrus (Jun 23, 2021)

Arilyn said:


> For some reason you saying, "One of the TSRs" makes me giggle.



Mission accomplished?


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## sevenbastard (Jun 23, 2021)

I played a heck off a lot of Star Frontiers as a kid. Definitely interested in an update. 

I'm just going to  assume the legal stuff was already figured out and they aren't just hoping it all works out.


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## darjr (Jun 23, 2021)

Newbiedm shows the copyright is still WotCs which I expected.

So it won’t have the setting or characters? It’ll have a facsimile?

or maybe they license? Is this a ploy to force one?


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 23, 2021)

Morrus said:


> I'm no lawyer, but I'd imagine not? Dunno!



I think it's a huge assumption to think that lawyers are involved in any of the stuff TSR 3.0 (?) is doing.


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## aramis erak (Jun 23, 2021)

Morrus said:


> I'm no lawyer, but I'd imagine not? Dunno!



It's worth noting that there are at least 3 TSR's in Wisconsin... One's a management consultant, just down the street from the original TSR offices and the TSR LLC offices.

The Trademarks are to a TSR LLC, registered to a Mr. Nugent.
Said TSR LLC happens also to have registered most of the older TSR trademarks.

I don't know if that TSR is the same one as Mr. E. Gygax is running.
As I said on RPGG, I'd find it hilarious if TSR LLC is a WotC IP holding company.

Either way, the graphical logo registrations are of art for which the copyright is now owned by Wizards of the Coast, as part of the TSR Hobbies, Inc., corporate IP. 

And art which is in continued use by WotC, since the reissues are scans, not relayouts.


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## R_Chance (Jun 23, 2021)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> I think it's a huge assumption to think that lawyers are involved in any of the stuff TSR 3.0 (?) is doing.



It's almost like we're being trolled...


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 23, 2021)

aramis erak said:


> And art which is in continued use by WotC, since the reissues are scans, not relayouts.



I had never thought of that before. That explains a lot about DMs Guild and how they do those products.


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## lyle.spade (Jun 23, 2021)

Just bring back the full-page cover of the original boxed set. When Knighthawks came out they began printing the original set with that horrid purple border and clipped the Elmore cover to fit. Lame layout. The original was what got me to dump DnD until 3e - no kidding. I can thank Star Frontiers for enabling me to skip 2e entirely.


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## aramis erak (Jun 23, 2021)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> I had never thought of that before. That explains a lot about DMs Guild and how they do those products.



The other thing to remember: The relevant laws are those of Wisconsin, Washington, and  US Federal. WotC is in Washington, the registration is by a company in Wisconsin, and it is both federal trademarks and interstate. There are a lot of varying rights issues that laymen like us can observe, but don't know the actual details of.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 23, 2021)

aramis erak said:


> The other thing to remember: The relevant laws are those of Wisconsin, Washington, and  US Federal. WotC is in Washington, the registration is by a company in Wisconsin, and it is both federal trademarks and interstate. There are a lot of varying rights issues that laymen like us can observe, but don't know the actual details of.



I see customers complaining all the time that WotC doesn't reflow the text from older products into a modern layout program to create a clearer version of the product, instead of relying on sometimes substandard scans. But if the scans are the point, for maintaining continual use of all those old assets, there's good reason why they might not want to.

That also may impact what, if any, reprints we get in 2024 for their 50th anniversary celebration.


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## Remathilis (Jun 23, 2021)

Hope they have some agreement with Wizards over the trademark, or TSR is going to get "acquired" by WotC again!


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## Sacrosanct (Jun 23, 2021)

Remathilis said:


> Hope they have some agreement with Wizards over the trademark, or TSR is going to get "acquired" by WotC again!



Maybe that's their goal for the quick cash grab lol


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## CleverNickName (Jun 23, 2021)

Focus, people.
Instead of writing "oh noes what about teh copyrights" we should be writing OMG YOU GUYS THEY ARE REBOOTING STAR FRONTIERS!!!





UPDATE:
*Well, nevermind then. * What a shame.


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## Davies (Jun 23, 2021)

Well, for some of us, that's a little difficult to do when it's not so much "they are rebooting Star Frontiers" as "they CLAIM that they are rebooting Star Frontiers, while offering no proof that they can actually do this".


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## CleverNickName (Jun 23, 2021)

Davies said:


> Well, that's a little difficult to do when it's not so much "they are rebooting Star Frontiers" as "they CLAIM that they are rebooting Star Frontiers, while offering no proof that they can actually do this".



I concede the point.  But still.

In other threads we would get all kinds of excited, rampant speculation about whether or not a Warlord will be included, or whether hit points are a type of philosophy.  But instead we're getting....copyright law.[1]



1.  Disclaimer:  I have no problem with copyright law, or the discussion thereof.  I'm just a little bummed about the lack of laser guns and Sathars.


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## pming (Jun 23, 2021)

Hiya!

LOL! I was _just_...as in_ seconds_ ago... working on various automation scripts for my Star Frontiers game on Astral VTT. Ran my last game of Star Frontiers about...three years ago ( Just Another Cog - A Star Frontiers Campaign | Obsidian Portal <--not much on it, but there it is anyway). I absolutely LOVE Star Frontiers!  Have since it came out in '82. I probably count it as the second most GM'ed game I've done after "D&D" (various flavours), with Gamma World getting a close third, tied with Powers & Perils. My "Just Another Cog..." is actually still "going"...hence, my  getting Astral VTT up and ready for me to start it back up again in the next couple months (crosses fingers!).

Star Frontiers has a pretty active fan community...well, it _did_, before the WotC folks got involved; before it was a mutual "Ok, whatever...", but a few years ago they sent a letter of "Ok, uh, stop now. Because...reasons". I guess we know what those reasons were now, huh?

Star Frontiers Remastered, with the 24'ish issues of The Star Frontiersman is what I use. Basically a semi-pro re-working of Star Frontiers, with fixed errors, updated some rules, some changed/additional art, etc. If anyone has those PDF's and PoD's (like I do), count yourself blessed! 

As an aside...I have...uh... "less than favourable expectations" if WotC does a re-boot. They'll mess it up in probably far too many ways.  I hope I'm wrong, but I can't see it. They aren't in the business to make good games...their in the business to get you money, then when it start to run low, do a 're-boot' to get money from new people; rinse and repeat. (yeah, I'm a 'big' cynical...sue me!  ).

The main/original guy handling the Star Frontiersman and Star Frontiers Remastered was a bloke by the name of Bill Logan. He has his own company, DwD Studios | Raise your dice hand high! , and he did do his own version of a space game inspired by Star Frontiers. He started this when he got "The Letter" (re: WotC saying "Ok, we changed our mind...stop..."). While I do not own his "Frontier Space" game, I am tempted, just to see how it turned out.

But seriously... "Star Frontiers Remastered" and "Star Frontiersman" magz and you are all set for another 40 years of space gaming action! Good luck trying to find someone selling theirs, but if you can, GET IT! 

^_^

Paul L. Ming


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## J.Quondam (Jun 23, 2021)

Yay! Dralasites!


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## aramis erak (Jun 23, 2021)

Davies said:


> Well, for some of us, that's a little difficult to do when it's not so much "they are rebooting Star Frontiers" as "they CLAIM that they are rebooting Star Frontiers, while offering no proof that they can actually do this".



Given the one name listed... James Ward... And that Mr. Ward is in ill health...

... I have doubts that it's going to be on time.

And, given that they literally reused the same art as the original in the filings, litigation is a safe bet. It won't be good for them, even if they prevail.

Also, being still commercially available, that blocks the US Copyright Recovery Act.  
So, a new game, or a total rewrite from scratch (mechanics are NOT protected in the US via copyrights, only the exact literal wording), or a lawsuit magnet from hell which will bankrupt them?

Nothing to get excited about except the fireworks to ensue.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 23, 2021)

If they can't use any of the existing Star Frontiers IP, what will make it "Star Frontiers?" Are there a lot of people who fondly remember the system? I don't recall ever hearing a peep about it, during its time or since, whereas I think everyone on this board knows, in contrast, that Traveller characters can die during character generation.


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## Farenn (Jun 23, 2021)

Very cool news. As far as the trademark/copyright concerns go. I would not be surprised if there is some kind of agreement behind the scenes between TSR and Wizards of the Coast. Some of the people behind the new TSR still have a good relationship with the people at Wizards of the Coast. And I am pretty confident that Wizards probably has no interest in ever doing something with the Star Frontiers franchise.


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## darjr (Jun 23, 2021)

Farenn said:


> Very cool news. As far as the trademark/copyright concerns go. I would not be surprised if there is some kind of agreement behind the scenes between TSR and Wizards of the Coast. Some of the people behind the new TSR still have a good relationship with the people at Wizards of the Coast. And I am pretty confident that Wizards probably has no interest in ever doing something with the Star Frontiers franchise.



Not entirely true. WotC has had a skunkworks version of Star Frontiers for a while now.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Jun 23, 2021)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> If they can't use any of the existing Star Frontiers IP, what will make it "Star Frontiers?"




Sasquatch Games released a new Alternity RPG that is not an update of the original one, so I guess this company could try to put out a new game using the name Star Frontiers and it not be anything like the original either.


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## dragoner (Jun 23, 2021)

Remathilis said:


> Hope they have some agreement with Wizards over the trademark, or TSR is going to get "acquired" by WotC again!



Or maybe this and TSR is their way of expanding w/o doing it through WotC.


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## Nilonym (Jun 23, 2021)

Remathilis said:


> Hope they have some agreement with Wizards over the trademark, or TSR is going to get "acquired" by WotC again!



You don’t acquire companies who steal your IP; you sue them. That’s what will happen here if there is not some undisclosed licensing deal.


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## SilentJay (Jun 23, 2021)

Farenn said:


> Very cool news. As far as the trademark/copyright concerns go. I would not be surprised if there is some kind of agreement behind the scenes between TSR and Wizards of the Coast. Some of the people behind the new TSR still have a good relationship with the people at Wizards of the Coast. And I am pretty confident that Wizards probably has no interest in ever doing something with the Star Frontiers franchise.



Better inform whomever is doing TSR's social media who pretty much said they're going to fight Hasbro over the rights by saying that it's up to the lawyers now.


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## Sacrosanct (Jun 23, 2021)

Judging by how efficiently the folks behind the new TSR have run their business(s) in the past, and especially by the flippant comment by them about lawyers, and it seems obvious that they did not get a licensing or pre agreement with WoTC, and are headed straight toward disaster.

Again.

James Ward is the only one on that team with any real experience managing projects or helping run a business, and he's in very poor health.  (He has had health issues for a long time and always kept fighting through it and creating good stuff, but we can't deny those issues are getting much worse, and it's not fair to him to be ensuring everyone else is doing the right thing.)

Which sucks, because I'd love for them to see success.  But good lord, you can't be doing stuff like this and expect to run a successful business.  Unless they had permission to use that image, which is owned by Hasbro now, that's a huge rookie mistake.


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## jacleg05 (Jun 23, 2021)

Maybe I missed, it but I am wondering what system it will use? Will it be another 5th edition adaption, the original d100, or something new?


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## MGibster (Jun 23, 2021)

I never played Star Frontiers but I do remember seeing this ad for it in various comic books circa 1983.


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## SilentJay (Jun 23, 2021)

Sacrosanct said:


> James Ward is the only one on that team with any real experience managing projects or helping run a business, and he's in very poor health.



I'm not even certain Ward's involved beyond using his ruleset, as the wording's a bit fuzzy there.  All I know is that this is Ernie Gygax's gig, and he still hasn't delivered on a KS yet, after 5 or so years.


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## Knightfall (Jun 23, 2021)

To rely on lawyers to save your butts while blatantly stealing copyrighted material (that image) is so ridiculous. They are just asking to be sued and I guarantee Hasbro and/or WotC's lawyers are going to _overrun_ TSR's lawyers if they don't comply.

I was looking forward to getting a copy of Giant Lands, but, if they are going to be arrogant about breaking copyright rules, yeah, I don't think so. A trademark is not a copyright (no, I'm not a lawyer)!

If they somehow manage to not to get destroyed in court (and go under) and apologize for stealing a copyrighted image, I might forgive them for their hubris.


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## darjr (Jun 23, 2021)

@Knightfall I don't like that they used that image in their promo.... but.... I think it was just a dumb mistake. I don't think they intend to steal IP for the actual game. I think, I hope. 

Still without it it seems rather pointless to me. A tulip labeled a rose is not a rose.

I think if they had a wotc license they'd have said so? Also I don't think they would have needed to capture the trademark. Or wotc wouldn't have appreciated that anyway. But what do I know?


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## Knightfall (Jun 23, 2021)

darjr said:


> @Knightfall I don't like that they used that image in their promo.... but.... I think it was just a dumb mistake. I don't think they intend to steal IP for the actual game. I think, I hope.



Maybe. And that's a big maybe. If James Ward is deeply involved, let's not forget a little company called Fast Forward Entertainment and how that ended. And, yes, I liked and bought many of those d20 books and still own the best ones.

But, the use of WotC's copyrights cost FFE and you would think that Mr. Ward (if not any of the others involved with this new TSR) would know better. Maybe, maybe those handling the marketing logistics didn't think before using the image, but fool me once...

I'm not going to invest in a company that could go out of business by ignoring copyright laws.



			
				darjr said:
			
		

> Still without it it seems rather pointless to me. A tulip labeled a rose is not a rose.
> 
> I think if they had a wotc license they'd have said so? Also I don't think they would have needed to capture the trademark. Or wotc wouldn't have appreciated that anyway. But what do I know?



Personally, I wasn't a huge fan of Star Frontiers back in the day, so if they had to create a different setting with different species, so be it. That's what has happened with Alternity, 2nd Edition, and I really loved the first version and have bought several of the books for the 2nd Edition. Of course, that was more a rule system than a setting.


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## Parmandur (Jun 23, 2021)

darjr said:


> @Knightfall I don't like that they used that image in their promo.... but.... I think it was just a dumb mistake. I don't think they intend to steal IP for the actual game. I think, I hope.
> 
> Still without it it seems rather pointless to me. A tulip labeled a rose is not a rose.
> 
> I think if they had a wotc license they'd have said so? Also I don't think they would have needed to capture the trademark. Or wotc wouldn't have appreciated that anyway. But what do I know?



Yeah, I'm dubious that this will work out.


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## Umbran (Jun 23, 2021)

Knightfall said:


> I'm not going to invest in a company that could go out of business by ignoring copyright laws.




Is someone asking you to?  You've been offered stock options, or something?


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## ECMO3 (Jun 23, 2021)

I don't know if it is in wizard's best interest to get involved in a copyright battle for several reasons:

1. The fights TSR had with the internet in the 90s and the fights wizard had during 3E did not actually help the company.  They did protect the IP but they also alienated gamers and this led to the TSR collapse and Pathfinder taking market share from D&D respectfully.

2. I don't think there is enough money in it to justify the PR hit.  This could jeopardize 5E, which is selling like gangbusters right now.  The last thing they want is a court battle where big bad Hasbro goes after the little guy.  This is especially true if E. Gygax is one of the guys running it.

Given those things, I don't think the juice is worth the squeeze.  To be honest a star frontiers reboot might actually cause an increase in sales from the old stuff on drive through RPG.

If anything I would expect WOTC to quietly send a C&D to cover their bases for potential future litigation and then ignore it if TSR lawyers up.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 23, 2021)

They actually have to fight it. Failure to defend your copyrights and trademarks has been cited in court rulings as evidence of them being up for grabs.

TSR 3.0 is starting a fight they cannot win over a property that wasn't going to be a big money-earner even before their legal costs were factored into it.


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## MGibster (Jun 23, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Is someone asking you to? You've been offered stock options, or something?



In this particular case, I don't imagine Knightfall meant investing money in the company with the intent of reaping a profit.  Rather they meant investing as in devoting time or effort into their products in the hopes of achieving some worthwhile results.  i.e.  I've invested heavily in D&D books and miniatures, and in return they've provided me with many, many hours of entertainment.


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## billd91 (Jun 23, 2021)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> They actually have to fight it. Failure to defend your copyrights and trademarks has been cited in court rulings as evidence of them being up for grabs.



Trademark you have to defend or risk losing it, copyright you don't because you can't lose it. Opponents might argue that a history of not defending a copyright indicates the holder puts little value in it and could, I suppose, undermine damages sought. But there's no way to lose a copyright by not defending it.


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## Parmandur (Jun 23, 2021)

billd91 said:


> Trademark you have to defend or risk losing it, copyright you don't because you can't lose it. Opponents might argue that a history of not defending a copyright indicates the holder puts little value in it and could, I suppose, undermine damages sought. But there's no way to lose a copyright by not defending it.



WotC has the copyright, "TSR" has filed for the Trademark...but WotC is still selling Star Frontier products, sooooo...not sure this is anything that will come rto fruition.


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## Sithlord (Jun 23, 2021)

SilentJay said:


> I'm not even certain Ward's involved beyond using his ruleset, as the wording's a bit fuzzy there.  All I know is that this is Ernie Gygax's gig, and he still hasn't delivered on a KS yet, after 5 or so years.



I love ward. And I have zero against Ernie and wish him happiness and beautiful wonderful life. But if Ernie is in charge of this based on past performance it will be a disaster. And I really want this product and love the works of the other people involved. Really hoping Earnie learned from past failures. Sometimes u have to fail to learn to win.


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## pemerton (Jun 23, 2021)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> They actually have to fight it. Failure to defend your copyrights and trademarks has been cited in court rulings as evidence of them being up for grabs.



This is not true of copyright, to the best of my knowledge

In the context of trademarks, a trademark must be able to distinguish a good or service in the marketplace. So if a trademark owner permits concurrent use, they are allowing the distinguishing function of the mark to be lost.

WotC is still selling Star Frontiers (via DriveThruRPG) with the old trade dress, but apparently have allowed the registration to lapse. There is thus a contest between a registered trademark and an unregistered trademark in use. My guess would be that the registered mark prevails at least to the extent that WotC can't deny the entitlement of the registered owner to use it, but I don't know if it would be exclusive as against WotC or if WotC would be permitted to engage in concurrent use. I suspect the latter (ie that the new TSR don't have a case against WotC) but I'm not sure.


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## TerraDave (Jun 23, 2021)

So...I did really like Knight Hawks, their space combat expansion. 

Wonder if this TSR will release something similar?


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## teitan (Jun 23, 2021)

Yeah their attitude is very, umm, non chalant. They really think they are the original TSR back from the grave and blustery about it. I wish them well but it's going to be ugly as a baboon's behind. I had a short interaction with some of them on Facebook. They aren't coming across well.


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## pming (Jun 23, 2021)

Hiya!


TerraDave said:


> So...I did really like Knight Hawks, their space combat expansion.
> 
> Wonder if this TSR will release something similar?



Still playing KH and AD here. I'd like to see "TSR" be able to re-release the aforementioned (by me) fan-created "Star Frontiers Remastered" books, tbh. Then a compilation or three of the best of the articles from The Frontiersman (the fan-made e-mag that went to...24 or 25 issues ranging from about 30 pages to 60!). Of course, "TSR" would have to get permission and all that stuff from the original creators of any articles from The Frontiersman, but I'm sure they could.

^_^

Paul L. Ming


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## Dioltach (Jun 23, 2021)

Never played Star Frontiers, but I remember seeing pictures of the cover back in the 80s (was it advertised in the BECMI boxes?), and _really_ wishing I could get my hands on a copy. That one image was so evocative.


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## aramis erak (Jun 23, 2021)

Nilonym said:


> You don’t acquire companies who steal your IP; you sue them. That’s what will happen here if there is not some undisclosed licensing deal.



Most companies won't be able to afford the costs of losing a lawsuit. Offering the company as payment in full has happened in the past as a settlement. The other option usually involves bankruptcy and/or liquidation of IP. Note that infringing IP is only of value to the owner of the IP infringed upon, at least in the US, due to the rules on derivative copyright laws.

While I've not seen it in the RPG industry, I have seen some cases where a company was seized due to non-payment of award, resulting in transfer of the tangible and intellectual assets of the company. (The things you learn while doing holdings maintenance on the district courts records in the Archives.)


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## aramis erak (Jun 23, 2021)

Knightfall said:


> Maybe. And that's a big maybe. If James Ward is deeply involved, let's not forget a little company called Fast Forward Entertainment and how that ended. And, yes, I liked and bought many of those d20 books and still own the best ones.
> 
> But, the use of WotC's copyrights cost FFE and you would think that Mr. Ward (if not any of the others involved with this new TSR) would know better. Maybe, maybe those handling the marketing logistics didn't think before using the image, but fool me once...



Note that the images registered by TSR include the various TSR Hobbies and Tactical Studies Rules logos, including the stairstep TSR, the wizard-sun oval, and other images created in-house at the original TSR. And the Title Logo is from the title-page of the Expanded Rules booklet. Clear case of use of copyrighted material. The only important question really is, "Is it done under license?"

Well, that, and "Is Jim Ward actually up to working?"


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## aramis erak (Jun 23, 2021)

Dioltach said:


> Never played Star Frontiers, but I remember seeing pictures of the cover back in the 80s (was it advertised in the BECMI boxes?), and _really_ wishing I could get my hands on a copy. That one image was so evocative.



Its available on DTRPG from Wizards. 
It's not bad, it's a skill driven game, interesting races, decent setting material (especially for the era). Rules cover combat extensively, and a number of endeavors outside the combat sphere.

There are 3 very broad classes which determine skill costs, but have almost no other effects in play.
Skills being 6 levels each, most with multiple subskills; subskill percentile chances are derived from skill level and attributes.

The adventures I've played are pretty good, too. 

Ship rules are in a separate product (Knight Hawks), which is playable as a board game as well as being a supplement for the RPG, and adding a 4th class of skills, but noting that those skills have insanely high prereqs.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Jun 23, 2021)

Now we are talking about the title, but the IP, the characters, races, monsters and factions, all that is by WotC, aren't they?


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## aramis erak (Jun 23, 2021)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> Now we are talking about the title, but the IP, the characters, races, monsters and factions, all that is by WotC, aren't they?



WotC has the US copyrights to the original Star Frontiers, acquired as part of the purchase of TSR.


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## Morrus (Jun 23, 2021)

Yeah, registering the *trademark* for a name (or logo) and the *copyright* to the actual content are two different things entirely. The copyright remains with WotC unless they sell it or it expires 70 years after the creator's death (so no time soon -- actually it was almost certainly work-for-hire, so I think that's even longer). The trademark for the name expired, and was registered by one of the TSRs back in April. Same with the TSR trademark -- use of the name doesn't give you access to the associated catalogue of work.


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## mikeawmids1 (Jun 23, 2021)

Alternatively, you could just buy the excellent FrontierSpace RPG from DWD Studios.


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## Remathilis (Jun 23, 2021)

Nilonym said:


> You don’t acquire companies who steal your IP; you sue them. That’s what will happen here if there is not some undisclosed licensing deal.



Ergo the joke; after WotC sues TSR for everything they got, they will "acquire" them again...


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## wicked cool (Jun 23, 2021)

I'm  sure theres some deal out there

Fond memories of Star Frontiers

Whats next Gang busters


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## pemerton (Jun 23, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Yeah, registering the *trademark* for a name (or logo) and the *copyright* to the actual content are two different things entirely. The copyright remains with WotC unless they sell it or it expires 70 years after the creator's death (so no time soon -- actually it was almost certainly work-for-hire, so I think that's even longer). The trademark for the name expired, and was registered by one of the TSRs back in April. Same with the TSR trademark -- use of the name doesn't give you access to the associated catalogue of work.



I think that, as @aramis erak posted not far upthread, there's an additional weirdness in this case: the new TSR seems to have registered, as Trade Marks, various logos in which WotC presumably owns the copyright as images. It's a bit unclear how the new TSR is able to do that legally, and will be able to legally publish those symbols on the books it releases, unless WotC has given it permission.

I don't think the logos are so generic that they couldn't be the object of copyright on WotC's part.

But maybe there's some other aspect of the interaction of IP principals here that I'm not across?



LuisCarlos17f said:


> Now we are talking about the title, but the IP, the characters, races, monsters and factions, all that is by WotC, aren't they?



I think WotC owns copyright in all the Star Frontiers texts. Some of the names in those texts may also be trademarks, depending on how WotC is using them in the publication/promotion of its Star Frontiers files.

So whatever the new TSR is going to publish, it presumably will not be a version of the WotC texts. (Assuming no licence.)


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## VelvetViolet (Jun 23, 2021)

Knightfall said:


> That's what has happened with Alternity, 2nd Edition, and I really loved the first version and have bought several of the books for the 2nd Edition. Of course, that was more a rule system than a setting.



I was disappointed that the original settings weren’t making a comeback. The original books were taken down from Drivethrurpg in 2008 after WotC’s hissy fit and never came back. I would have bought them legally if they were available.


----------



## Ghost2020 (Jun 23, 2021)

A second nod for FrontierSpace, and conversion stats for the Star Frontiers aliens to FrontierSpace are in Frontier Explorer mags, issue 23, all on DriveThruRPG.

Why cling to the past?!

FrontierSpace is an updated homage, and all the SF scenario books work with the system without too much trouble.


----------



## darjr (Jun 23, 2021)

What is the FrimtierSpace game system like?


----------



## BigJackBrass (Jun 23, 2021)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> If they can't use any of the existing Star Frontiers IP, what will make it "Star Frontiers?"



You can replace "Star Frontiers" with "TSR" there and it's still a valid question.


----------



## Sir Brennen (Jun 23, 2021)

Ghost2020 said:


> Why cling to the past?!



Well, it sounds like this TSR is planning on updating/revising Star Frontiers, so it's no more clinging to the past than FrontierSpace is.

And what is an homage then, if not invoking something from the past?


----------



## Marc_C (Jun 23, 2021)

Assuming "TSR games, the third" owns the Star Frontiers IP I'm wondering if the reboot system will be the same as the one used in the new Giant Lands. Both games use d100. That would make sense.


----------



## atherion-foehammer (Jun 23, 2021)

I hope this is real and comes to fruition. I loved Star Frontiers, and actually last year went and bought either reprint's or originals of all the material. I always thought that it would make a great video game franchise.


----------



## Undrave (Jun 23, 2021)

Arilyn said:


> For some reason you saying, "One of the TSRs" makes me giggle.



Me too!


----------



## Ghost2020 (Jun 23, 2021)

darjr said:


> What is the FrimtierSpace game system like?



It's a % system very similar to Star Frontiers. There are humans, and 3 aliens ( I think). Lots of gear, vehicles, ships, psionics, etc.

There is that Frontier Explorer mag with extra stuff, gm screen, and a handful of modules\scenarios to get as well.

Great looking books, and extremely affordable!









						FrontierSpace Player's Handbook - DwD Studios | FrontierSpace | DriveThruRPG.com
					

FrontierSpace Player's Handbook -      Among the stars in a distant galaxy there exists a region of densely populated habitable worlds. It is here your st




					www.drivethrurpg.com
				












						FrontierSpace Referee's Handbook - DwD Studios | FrontierSpace | DriveThruRPG.com
					

FrontierSpace Referee's Handbook -      A Referee is many things: host, writer, actor, and judge. While players play, you have to do everything else. It’




					www.drivethrurpg.com


----------



## Ralif Redhammer (Jun 23, 2021)

I suspect NuTSR is going to get into legal trouble with WotC. The way they're trying to act like it's the same company that created D&D, reborn, creating a new edition of a game that Wizards is currently selling on DriveThruRPG. Websites and YouTube channels are already running articles saying stuff like "the original creator of dungeons & dragons, TSR, returns! It's only a matter of time before Wizards decides that this crosses the line into brand infringement.

And what is a new Star Frontiers going to be, without its IP? Maybe Wizards really doesn't care if they use Dralasites and Yazirians - Star Frontiers has been dead for decades after all. But I wouldn't bet on it; I just checked Top Secret: NWO, and the agents work for ICON, not the ORION Foundation, for example.


----------



## Marc_C (Jun 23, 2021)

Ralif Redhammer said:


> I suspect NuTSR is going to get into legal trouble with WotC. The way they're trying to act like it's the same company that created D&D, reborn, creating a new edition of a game that Wizards is currently selling on DriveThruRPG. Websites and YouTube channels are already running articles saying stuff like "the original creator of dungeons & dragons, TSR, returns! It's only a matter of time before Wizards decides that this crosses the line into brand infringement.
> 
> And what is a new Star Frontiers going to be, without its IP? Maybe Wizards really doesn't care if they use Dralasites and Yazirians - Star Frontiers has been dead for decades after all. But I wouldn't bet on it; I just checked Top Secret: NWO, and the agents work for ICON, not the ORION Foundation, for example.



Minor nitpick: Star Frontiers races did make appearances in Alternity and in d20 Future (3e, 2004). I did a Star Frontiers campaign using d20 future. But yes it has been 10+ years, so only one decade technically.


----------



## Sacrosanct (Jun 23, 2021)

Ralif Redhammer said:


> I suspect NuTSR is going to get into legal trouble with WotC. The way they're trying to act like it's the same company that created D&D, reborn, creating a new edition of a game that Wizards is currently selling on DriveThruRPG.



By all accounts, Ernie Jr is a nice guy in person.  But it sure seems like his entire career is selling his name and his dad's work, rather than create anything of his own.  While I guess he helped run Gencon with Skip Williams back in the day, and managed the retail store, has he ever actually created a product or managed a product*?  Everything I see is "Hey, I playtested dad's modules!".  So to that point, it doesn't surprise me that they are being disingenuous by saying the old TSR is back, because his entire career has been on capitalizing on the work of his dad and others.  

I find it ironic more than anything that Gary's son seems willing to use another's IP for their own monetary purposes.   

* the last project he was associated with as a co-creator failed miserably and still hasn't delivered more than 6 years later.


----------



## Maxperson (Jun 23, 2021)

I found this.









						1980s space opera RPG Star Frontiers could be about to make a comeback
					

A brand new website incorporating a whole host of content from Tabletop Gaming and Miniature Wargames magazines




					www.tabletopgaming.co.uk
				




And...






						STAR FRONTIERS Trademark of Evil Hat Productions, LLC Serial Number: 87514096 :: Trademarkia Trademarks
					

STAR FRONTIERS is a trademark and brand of Evil Hat Productions, LLC




					trademark.trademarkia.com


----------



## Morrus (Jun 23, 2021)

Maxperson said:


> I found this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yep, I remember reporting that!









						Is Evil Hat Republishing TSR's Star Frontiers?
					

Last year, Sasquatch Game Studio announced that it had acquired the trademark for TSR's old Alternity science-fiction game. At the time, it was mentioned that they did not have the Star*Drive, Dark*Matter, Gamma World, StarCraft Adventures, or Star Frontiers, properties owned by WotC. This may...




					www.enworld.org


----------



## darjr (Jun 23, 2021)

Wait? So who has the trademark?


----------



## Maxperson (Jun 23, 2021)

darjr said:


> Wait? So who has the trademark?



Who knows!  If it was really expired in 2004, re-trademarked in 2017, and then abandoned in 2018, it could be the new TSR.


----------



## Aldarc (Jun 23, 2021)

Following this sort of news, I half expect an announcement that TSR plans on re-opening Blockbuster Video.


----------



## Marc_C (Jun 23, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Yep, I remember reporting that!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That is the episode that sent WoTC on a rampage sending cease & desist to StarFrontiersMan (2017) to stop distributing the remastered version of Star Frontiers they had been handing out for free because WoTc had given them the permission to do so several years before, in a letter. It killed the community at the StarFrontiers.us forum. 

Starfrontiersman had to remove all SF products they had remastered and remove any SF art from their Star frontiersman fan magazine.

That is also when Wotc put Star Frontiers for sale in drivethru rpg to show they still did business with the IP.


----------



## Maxperson (Jun 23, 2021)

Trademarks have to be maintained every 10 years through a filing.  Continued use by itself isn't enough.  If WotC failed to file that document, the trademark could have expired and now be up for grabs.


----------



## Marc_C (Jun 23, 2021)

Maxperson said:


> Trademarks have to be maintained every 10 years through a filing.  Continued use by itself isn't enough.  If WotC failed to file that document, the trademark could have expired and now be up for grabs.



Yes, the words 'Star Frontiers' could have been snatched. But the content of the game (setting, races, unique equipment) are not up for grabs. 

A new version of Star Frontiers without the setting would not work for me. Just like Alternity 2.0 by Sasquatsh Games.


----------



## Maxperson (Jun 23, 2021)

Marc_C said:


> Yes, the words 'Star Frontiers' could have been snatched. But the content of the game (setting, races, unique equipment) are not up for grabs.
> 
> A new version of Star Frontiers without the setting would not work for me. Just like Alternity 2.0 by Sasquatsh Games.



Yes, but if TSR owns Star Frontiers and WotC owns the content, neither can use the product by themselves.  That could be strong incentive for WotC to license the content to TSR, since WoTC isn't doing anything with it and extra money is good.


----------



## darjr (Jun 23, 2021)

I think it’s OK to lean on your fathers legacy. I would be thrilled to hand such a thing to my three sons.

Still this so far with Star Frontiers a bit of a fiasco.


----------



## darjr (Jun 23, 2021)

Marc_C said:


> That is the episode that sent WoTC on a rampage sending cease & desist to StarFrontiersMan (2017) to stop distributing the remastered version of Star Frontiers they had been handing out for free because WoTc had given them the permission to do so several years before, in a letter. It killed the community at the StarFrontiers.us forum.
> 
> Starfrontiersman had to remove all SF products they had remastered and remove any SF art from their Star frontiersman fan magazine.
> 
> That is also when Wotc put Star Frontiers for sale in drivethru rpg to show they still did business with the IP.



As I understood it the original agreement had as a part that WotC might take them back, and as they showed up in drive thru the links to the free PDFs came down and were repointed to drive thru on that site.
And as far as art in Star Frontiers magazines there was a new one with new art that is definitely WotC IP, I can only guess they have permission somehow from WotC.
But I wasn’t steeped in the community at the time, so I’ll defer there.

it is too bad about the remastered PDFs, they were great.


----------



## Sacrosanct (Jun 23, 2021)

darjr said:


> I think it’s OK to lean in your fathers legacy. I would be thrilled to hand such a thing to my three sons.




I don't disagree.  And I think most people would.  I bring it up in the context of a) because your dad ran a business and created all this stuff doesn't mean you're any good at it (evidence proving the contrary as a matter of fact), and b) this doesn't just seem to be leaning on his dad's legacy.  This seems to be using that legacy to be deceptive, as it is very much _not _the old TSR coming back.

"I was there when my dad did all this stuff" is not a big selling point to me.   YMMV of course.


----------



## Marc_C (Jun 23, 2021)

darjr said:


> As I understood it the original agreement had as a part that WotC might take them back, and as they showed up in drive thru the links to the free PDFs came down and were repointed to drive thru on that site.
> And as far as art in Star Frontiers magazines there was a new one with new art that is definitely WotC IP, I can only guess they have permission somehow from WotC.
> But I wasn’t steeped in the community at the time, so I’ll defer there.
> 
> it is too bad about the remastered PDFs, they were great.




The art that had to be removed were digital redrawings of floor plans from modules and also SF articles from the Dragon Magazines which had been reproduced exactly.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 23, 2021)

Ralif Redhammer said:


> And what is a new Star Frontiers going to be, without its IP? Maybe Wizards really doesn't care if they use Dralasites and Yazirians - Star Frontiers has been dead for decades after all.



Didn't they bring Yazirians over, with a different name, into 3E's Stormwrack?


----------



## Ralif Redhammer (Jun 23, 2021)

Huh, I did not know that. I'm not sure if the cannibalization of the Yazirians into other IPs is better or worse for NuTSR's chances.



Marc_C said:


> Minor nitpick: Star Frontiers races did make appearances in Alternity and in d20 Future (3e, 2004). I did a Star Frontiers campaign using d20 future. But yes it has been 10+ years, so only one decade technically.




He did The Lost City of Gaxmoor, and contributed to Gygax magazine, but those were both with his brother Luke. Before that he's credited with working on the Monster & Treasure Assortment and Dungeon Geomorphs Set Two: Caves & Caverns.

Oh, Marmoreal Tomb! Still waiting...maybe this year will be the year. I only backed at the lowest print level, because the stretch goals sounded like trouble to me from the get-go. I feel for the people that went all-in on that project.

He will say that he inherited his father's imagination but not his work ethic. That tracks.



Sacrosanct said:


> By all accounts, Ernie Jr is a nice guy in person.  But it sure seems like his entire career is selling his name and his dad's work, rather than create anything of his own.  While I guess he helped run Gencon with Skip Williams back in the day, and managed the retail store, has he ever actually created a product or managed a product*?  Everything I see is "Hey, I playtested dad's modules!".  So to that point, it doesn't surprise me that they are being disingenuous by saying the old TSR is back, because his entire career has been on capitalizing on the work of his dad and others.
> 
> I find it ironic more than anything that Gary's son seems willing to use another's IP for their own monetary purposes.
> 
> * the last project he was associated with as a co-creator failed miserably and still hasn't delivered more than 6 years later.




It appears that they were called the Hadozee there, but they clearly look like Yazirians. 


Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Didn't they bring Yazirians over, with a different name, into 3E's Stormwrack?


----------



## VelvetViolet (Jun 23, 2021)

I thought it was very disappointing how WotC is handling TSR's neglected IP. I really wish the _Star*Drive_ and _Star Frontiers_ and so on could get real re-releases and not just cameos in _d20 Future_ more than a decade ago. WotC previously licensed _Gamma World_. Why not those?


----------



## Dire Bare (Jun 23, 2021)

BoxCrayonTales said:


> I thought it was very disappointing how WotC is handling TSR's neglected IP. I really wish the _Star*Drive_ and _Star Frontiers_ and so on could get real re-releases and not just cameos in _d20 Future_ more than a decade ago. WotC previously licensed _Gamma World_. Why not those?



WotC didn't license out Gamma World, they actually produced a new Gamma World game during the 4th Edition era.

While there are fans who would love to see some of these classic games actively published again, it isn't clear that there is enough of us to make it worth doing for WotC. At the same time, the properties are too valuable for WotC to just let go.


----------



## VelvetViolet (Jun 23, 2021)

Dire Bare said:


> WotC didn't license out Gamma World, they actually produced a new Gamma World game during the 4th Edition era.











						Gamma World - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Dire Bare (Jun 23, 2021)

BoxCrayonTales said:


> Gamma World - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, nevermind then!


----------



## darjr (Jun 23, 2021)

I LOVE D&D 4e Gamma World. Soooo good.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 23, 2021)

BoxCrayonTales said:


> WotC previously licensed _Gamma World_. Why not those?



Maybe no one asked. I don't know that there are hordes of people demanding Star*Drive be brought back, whereas Gamma World has spawned numerous imitators, even today.


----------



## Nebulous (Jun 23, 2021)

indeed, me and my younger brother have very fond memories of Star Frontiers.  I'm hoping the new TSR does it justice!! Hell, if Larry Elmore just does a cool cover I'll probably consider it a success


----------



## Marc_C (Jun 23, 2021)

darjr said:


> I LOVE D&D 4e Gamma World. Soooo good.



It is very good. Loved it much more than 4e D&D.


----------



## LongTimeLurker (Jun 23, 2021)

Grifters gotta grift!


----------



## aramis erak (Jun 23, 2021)

Marc_C said:


> Assuming "TSR games, the third" owns the Star Frontiers IP I'm wondering if the reboot system will be the same as the one used in the new Giant Lands. Both games use d100. That would make sense.



Doubtful that they do. They'd have had the copyrights back for 4 years if they'd used the Copyright Reclamation clauses of the 2013 Copyright Act. And Paul would have been served by Ernie et al, rather than WotC.


----------



## darjr (Jun 23, 2021)

@Morrus why don’t you ask I’ve thru? I’d be interested to hear what they have o say.

here is an interesting video which begins with a very quick TSR history 
Jim Ward said 




Also TSR^3 is hosting a convention


----------



## Morrus (Jun 23, 2021)

darjr said:


> @Morrus why don’t you ask I’ve thru? I’d be interested to hear what they have o say.



Eh?


----------



## Parmandur (Jun 23, 2021)

darjr said:


> @Morrus why don’t you ask I’ve thru? I’d be interested to hear what they have o say.
> 
> here is an interesting video which begins with a very quick TSR history
> Jim Ward said
> ...



Wait, they announced Jim Ward's involvement without talking to him??

Amateur hour....


----------



## darjr (Jun 23, 2021)

Wait, if star frontiers isn’t going anywhere on drive thru why pick it up as a product?


----------



## Morrus (Jun 23, 2021)

darjr said:


> Jim Ward said
> View attachment 138683



Wait, didn't he co-write Giantlands?


----------



## darjr (Jun 23, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Eh?



Sorry, my tablet was giving me fits. Would the folks at drivethru confirm or deny the claims of TSR?


----------



## Morrus (Jun 23, 2021)

darjr said:


> Sorry, my tablet was giving me fits. Would the folks at drivethru confirm or deny the claims of TSR?



Why would they know?


----------



## darjr (Jun 23, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Why would they know?



Because TSR said Drivethru said that Star Frontiers was selling badly. At least that’s what the top post of the thread seems to say.

But maybe I misunderstood their response.


----------



## Morrus (Jun 23, 2021)

darjr said:


> Because TSR said Drivethru said that Star Frontiers was selling badly. At least that’s what the top post of the thread seems to say.
> 
> But maybe I misunderstood their response.



Sorry, what response is this? I hadn't seen anything from DTRPG, and I'd be amazed if they commented publicly on the poor sales of one of their publishers. Did I miss something?


----------



## Parmandur (Jun 23, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Wait, didn't he co-write Giantlands?
> 
> View attachment 138684



At the moment, I'm more inclined to belive Ward if he says he is not involved, than "TSR" that he is involved.


----------



## darjr (Jun 23, 2021)

Simone on their Facebook posted this



If true why not just say so?


----------



## darjr (Jun 23, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Sorry, what response is this? I hadn't seen anything from DTRPG, and I'd be amazed if they commented publicly on the poor sales of one of their publishers. Did I miss something?



It’s in the news article. Sorry, I’ve been ill and I’m sure I’m making no sense.


----------



## Morrus (Jun 23, 2021)

darjr said:


> It’s in the news article. Sorry, I’ve been ill and I’m sure I’m making no sense.
> 
> View attachment 138697



Those two quotes are from TSR. DTRPG has not made any comment on _Star Frontiers _sales figures that I know of, and I'd be shocked if they did!


----------



## Morrus (Jun 23, 2021)

darjr said:


> Simone on their Facebook posted this
> View attachment 138696
> If true why not just say so?



Who posted that, and who is the "TSR admin"?


----------



## darjr (Jun 23, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Who posted that, and who is the "TSR admin"?



check your messenger


----------



## darjr (Jun 23, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Those two quotes are from TSR. DTRPG has not made any comment on _Star Frontiers _sales figures that I know of, and I'd be shocked if they did!



Yup, but someone could ask them to corroborate or not TSR's "data". I mean I'm sure they won't answer on the record.


----------



## darjr (Jun 23, 2021)

I just went and checked my self. The Alpha Dawn rules are a platinum best seller. Does that mean it's selling OK?

Here's my affiliate link.








						Star Frontiers: Alpha Dawn - Wizards of the Coast | Star Frontiers | DriveThruRPG.com
					

Star Frontiers: Alpha Dawn - Alpha Dawn... stage one of the Star Frontiers™ science fiction game system. A great way to enter the world of science




					www.drivethrurpg.com


----------



## Morrus (Jun 23, 2021)

darjr said:


> Yup, but someone could ask them to corroborate or not TSR's "data". I mean I'm sure they won't answer on the record.



Corroborate what data? TSR hasn't presented any data about _Star Frontiers_ sales figures that I've seen? I think you're the only person I've seen mention Star Frontiers' sales performance!


----------



## aramis erak (Jun 24, 2021)

Maxperson said:


> Trademarks have to be maintained every 10 years through a filing.  Continued use by itself isn't enough.  If WotC failed to file that document, the trademark could have expired and now be up for grabs.



Registration is not required for Trademarks, just established use and defense. 
If fact, in the US, prior use of the registration is _required_ before the trademark is enforceable. If not used, it's marked abandoned.






						Legal requirements for registering your trademark
					

There are four basic requirements for filing a trademark (or service mark) with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO):  1. The trademark must be applied for under the actual owner's name. The owner of the trademark is the person who controls the nature and the quality of the goods sold or...




					www.legalzoom.com


----------



## CleverNickName (Jun 24, 2021)

Well, nevermind then.  Yikes.


----------



## darjr (Jun 24, 2021)

wait... so you can own the trademark without the registration.

It just makes it harder to defend, in court.









						Unregistered Trademarks
					

What rights do you have for a trademark that is not officially registered, how can you protect it, and why should you consider registering it?




					www.justia.com


----------



## Parmandur (Jun 24, 2021)

darjr said:


> wait... so you can own the trademark without the registration.
> 
> It just makes it harder to defend, in court.
> 
> ...



One begins to suspect that this "TSR" is a but of a Micky Mouse operation.


----------



## Maxperson (Jun 24, 2021)

aramis erak said:


> Registration is not required for Trademarks, just established use and defense.
> If fact, in the US, prior use of the registration is _required_ before the trademark is enforceable. If not used, it's marked abandoned.
> 
> 
> ...



Simple use is not enough.  They also have to file a renewal that shows that you are using it.  Without that renewal, you can lose it even if you are actively using it.  It looks like WotC failed to renew and it was up for grabs.


----------



## darjr (Jun 24, 2021)

Maxperson said:


> Simple use is not enough.  They also have to file a renewal that shows that you are using it.  Without that renewal, you can lose it even if you are actively using it.  It looks like WotC failed to renew and it was up for grabs.



Except you can still take them to court regardless of the registration to sue them for ownership. I think.


----------



## Maxperson (Jun 24, 2021)

darjr said:


> Except you can still take them to court regardless of the registration to sue them for ownership. I think.



That may not apply, though.  That article was about unregistered trademarks, not registered trademarks that were not maintained. I'm not a lawyer and have no idea.  It looks like the last time the Star Frontiers trademark was renewed was in 1994, since it supposedly expired in 2004 and went up for grabs.  It has since been trademarked again and abandoned, and then trademarked this most recent time by TSR.  WotC would have a hard time arguing that they were just late in filing the renewal.  It has been 27 years.


----------



## darjr (Jun 24, 2021)

Could be. I don’t know for sure either. But it does seem to me the key in any suit would be that it was being used actively, even while unregistered, by one party and not the other.

I’ll just concede with a “we might find out”


----------



## Maxperson (Jun 24, 2021)

darjr said:


> Could be. I don’t know for sure either. But it does seem to me the key in any suit would be that it was being used actively, even while unregistered, by one party and not the other.
> 
> I’ll just concede with a “we might find out”



Yeah.  Another thing to consider is that even if it has been used actively, it has been used actively in electronic PDF format.  The statute above regarding unregistered trademarks talked about being able to defend the trademark in the local markets where it is being used.  The Web commerce laws have been getting better, but are still pretty full of holes.  What is the local market for internet sales? Does the law cover that?


----------



## aramis erak (Jun 24, 2021)

darjr said:


> Except you can still take them to court regardless of the registration to sue them for ownership. I think.



It's been done successfully a number of times, just not for RPGs. Hell, registering it while the product it applies to is still in print has been grounds for revocation of the registration in the past.

Other countries may protect differently, but are irrelevant since all the rights are US registrations under US law by US corporations, represented by US attorneys.

Note that the 2018 abandonment was due to Wizards reissuing the Star Frontiers game, and Evil Hat's attorney apparently advised them not to proceed. Even if it were to be a meritless case, HasBro can afford to bury Evil Hat in motions into bankruptcy as a line item writeoff expense.  That was 2018. 

There's an old proverb I have heard in 4 langauges, and remember in 1: Nothing good comes from poking a bear. (I've heard it in Russian, Ukranian, and Yupiq as well.) 

Ernie et al are poking hasbro. In a place that has been poked before, recently.


----------



## aramis erak (Jun 24, 2021)

Maxperson said:


> Yeah.  Another thing to consider is that even if it has been used actively, it has been used actively in electronic PDF format.  The statute above regarding unregistered trademarks talked about being able to defend the trademark in the local markets where it is being used.  The Web commerce laws have been getting better, but are still pretty full of holes.  What is the local market for internet sales? Does the law cover that?



It's available in PoD and has been since the pdfs were removed from Paul's site and wizards put their scans up,.


----------



## Maxperson (Jun 24, 2021)

aramis erak said:


> It's available in PoD and has been since the pdfs were removed from Paul's site and wizards put their scans up,.



Isn't PoD still an internet sale?  I think the local markets talked about in that statute are physical presences, like in game stores.


----------



## DammitVictor (Jun 24, 2021)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Didn't they bring Yazirians over, with a different name, into 3E's Stormwrack?






Ralif Redhammer said:


> It appears that they were called the Hadozee there, but they clearly look like Yazirians.




The hadozee originally appeared in the _Spelljammer_ campaign setting as a monster, and as a PC race in _The Complete Spacefarer's Handbook_. I've noticed the resemblance before, too, and I've always wondered if it was intentional... but if it was intentional, why did they change the name? If it wasn't intentional, it's a hell of a coincidence.


----------



## MerricB (Jun 24, 2021)

darjr said:


> I just went and checked my self. The Alpha Dawn rules are a platinum best seller. Does that mean it's selling OK?



Platinum is between 1000 and 2000 sales.

Cheers!


----------



## aramis erak (Jun 24, 2021)

MerricB said:


> Platinum is between 1000 and 2000 sales.
> 
> Cheers!



And recall, that's in the last 3-4 years. Roughly 500 per year. More than enough to prove that the book is "in print." Not enough to make for "This needs a new edition yesterday!"


----------



## pemerton (Jun 24, 2021)

darjr said:


> Wait? So who has the trademark?



A search of the US trademark registry indicates that the new TSR has registered "Star Frontiers".

A search of DriveThruRPG indicates that WotC is trading using "Star Frontiers" as a distinctive sign for their roleplaying game of space operatic hijinks.

So we have two concurrent users, one registered and one not. (Though it's not 100% clear to me what the new TSR's actual use consists in.)

As I posted upthread, (i) I don't know what the legal answer is here, but (ii) the normal effect of this sort of registration is to give priority in a contest, so I doubt that WotC can dispute new TSR's use of "Star Frontiers" as a distinctive sign for _their_ roleplaying game of space operatic hijinks. EDIT: Having read your linked article on unregistered trademarks, maybe I'm wrong at (ii). It may be if WotC can prove their use - which would date back at least to when they offered Star Frontiers for sale on DriveThruRPG - then they can contest new TSR's use.

What I'm (even) less sure about is the implications of the registration for WotC. My gut feeling is that there are none, beyond not being able to dispute new TSR's use. And this gut feeling is reinforced by reading your linked article.



darjr said:


> wait... so you can own the trademark without the registration.
> 
> It just makes it harder to defend, in court.
> 
> ...



Generally in common law countries trademarks don't need to be registered to be owned. But registration proves ownership of the mark. It probably also affects how liability for infringement is established, but I'm not sure.



Maxperson said:


> Isn't PoD still an internet sale?  I think the local markets talked about in that statute are physical presences, like in game stores.



I don't think that's right. It's about the need to prove the distinctive character of the trademark in trade in a particular geographic region. The fact that you're trading online doesn't stop you proving that. Whether it makes it easier or harder seems to me a question of fact depending on how many customers you have and where they are encountering your mark and purchasing your marked products.


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## pemerton (Jun 24, 2021)

Reading the transcript on the other thread, it seems clear there's no licence. So this will be a new game with new fiction being sold (perhaps - see my previous post) under the name _Star Frontiers_.

The puzzle not yet solved in my mind is how new TSR is registering, as trademarks, logos/images in respect of which WotC surely holds the copyright.


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## aramis erak (Jun 24, 2021)

pemerton said:


> Reading the transcript on the other thread, it seems clear there's no licence. So this will be a new game with new fiction being sold (perhaps - see my previous post) under the name _Star Frontiers_.
> 
> The puzzle not yet solved in my mind is how new TSR is registering, as trademarks, logos/images in respect of which WotC surely holds the copyright.



Flirting with legal disaster is how.

Note that WotC's "recent" use predates the registration by new TSR aka Ernie Gygax et al, as well as continuing after.  If they fail to defend it, it'll be voided, and if they try to enforce it on Wizards, they get buried in paper... and probably wind up bankrupt.

Moreover, their use of the old logos is clearly to create brand confusion with a brand that belongs to WotC. 

And, as far as I can tell, for federal law there's no tangible format requirement; electronic publication counts as publication. (The requirement is "fixed format" - which can include electronic recordings, manuscripts, graven images in stone or wood...) That it's up for sale counts as in use.

Ironically, since Paul _was_ licensed, Paul's Star Frontiers site probably also counts as continued use... (Paul's site also taught me I'm about the only one around who wanted the KH rules updated to work with the Zebs Guide table.)


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## GreyLord (Jun 24, 2021)

aramis erak said:


> Flirting with legal disaster is how.
> 
> Note that WotC's "recent" use predates the registration by new TSR aka Ernie Gygax et al, as well as continuing after.  If they fail to defend it, it'll be voided, and if they try to enforce it on Wizards, they get buried in paper... and probably wind up bankrupt.
> 
> ...




I would like to add as well...Star Frontiers (WotC) is actualy IN PRINT.  It is available in electronic format, it is also available for those who want a printed copy.  

Just adding that.


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## pemerton (Jun 24, 2021)

aramis erak said:


> Flirting with legal disaster is how.
> 
> Note that WotC's "recent" use predates the registration by new TSR aka Ernie Gygax et al, as well as continuing after.  If they fail to defend it, it'll be voided, and if they try to enforce it on Wizards, they get buried in paper... and probably wind up bankrupt.



It's not clear to me how the registered trademark interacts with trademarks WotC is using - which now I think about it not just Star Frontiers, but TSR as well!

But the bigger puzzle for me is the likelihood that WotC enjoys copyright in the logos that new TSR has registered as part of its TSR trademark. So how is new TSR (legally) using those logos in its trademark applications? How will it (legally) publish books on which those logos appear.


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## DammitVictor (Jun 24, 2021)

Basically, I'm guessing he believes he _should_ have the legal right to do what he's doing, and thus that he _does_ have the legal right to do so and wouldn't understand why he _doesn't_ nor why he _shouldn't_. A lot of people just have this very weird blind spot when it comes to the law, where they can't accept that something they want to do is actually illegal, or _legitimately_ illegal; the reason so very few people have a reasonable grasp of the law is because the majority absolutely refuse to grasp any law that inconveniences them.

Try explaining how the OGL and the SRD work to someone who _really wants_ to publish something that isn't allowed, and you'll understand.


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## Marc_C (Jun 24, 2021)

So, TSR III doesn't have the rights to the Star Frontiers setting. We already have FrontierSpace by Bill Logan, who is an actual fan of the original rpg. I'm not interested in yet another version without the original setting and races.


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## aramis erak (Jun 24, 2021)

pemerton said:


> It's not clear to me how the registered trademark interacts with trademarks WotC is using - which now I think about it not just Star Frontiers, but TSR as well!
> 
> But the bigger puzzle for me is the likelihood that WotC enjoys copyright in the logos that new TSR has registered as part of its TSR trademark. So how is new TSR (legally) using those logos in its trademark applications? How will it (legally) publish books on which those logos appear.



Not very joyful thought... there's a certain number of copies at which copyright infringement becomes criminal under US law, not just civil/administrative...  more than 10 copies of 1 or more works with a worth more than $2500 total within 180 days, and for expectation of monetary gain (18 U.S.C. § 2319).  









						18 U.S. Code § 2319 -  Criminal infringement of a copyright
					






					www.law.cornell.edu
				




and no, I should not have gone into law. I much prefer having been an educator, as I choke in court.


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## Maxperson (Jun 24, 2021)

pemerton said:


> I don't think that's right. It's about the need to prove the distinctive character of the trademark in trade in a particular geographic region. The fact that you're trading online doesn't stop you proving that. Whether it makes it easier or harder seems to me a question of fact depending on how many customers you have and where they are encountering your mark and purchasing your marked products.



This article doesn't really provide a definitive answer, but it does talk about the confusion I mentioned.  





__





						Common Law Trademark Rights and the Internet
					

Interested in how Common Law trademark rights are evolving in the age of the internet? Keep reading to find out.




					www.cohnlg.com


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## Parmandur (Jun 24, 2021)

Maxperson said:


> This article doesn't really provide a definitive answer, but it does talk about the confusion I mentioned.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The one thing I'm certain of is that these guys at "TSR" haven't done their homework.


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## Maxperson (Jun 24, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> The one thing I'm certain of is that these guys at "TSR" haven't done their homework.



After seeing what was said, I wouldn't think they have, no.


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## pemerton (Jun 24, 2021)

Maxperson said:


> This article doesn't really provide a definitive answer, but it does talk about the confusion I mentioned.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It seems to agree with my post upthread that it is "a question of fact depending on how many customers you have and where they are encountering your mark and purchasing your marked products." From that website:

It seems that the devil really here is in the details and in any infringement and enforcement action, the Courts will have to pay very close attention to a website’s real-life effect. . . .

the prospective applicant [who] insists on only relying on Common Law rights . . . should proactively keep track of the where/what/when/how the trademark was used. Business owners should carefully document all relevant data regarding their sales, advertising, growth, unique visitors.​


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## Maxperson (Jun 24, 2021)

pemerton said:


> It seems to agree with my post upthread that it is "a question of fact depending on how many customers you have and where they are encountering your mark and purchasing your marked products." From that website:
> 
> It seems that the devil really here is in the details and in any infringement and enforcement action, the Courts will have to pay very close attention to a website’s real-life effect. . . .​​the prospective applicant [who] insists on only relying on Common Law rights . . . should proactively keep track of the where/what/when/how the trademark was used. Business owners should carefully document all relevant data regarding their sales, advertising, growth, unique visitors.​



It seemed to potentially agree with both of us.  It talked about how much business you do in a particular area being what the courts should look at, rather than just a presence on the world wide web. 

I don't think(but don't know for sure) that Star Frontiers sells all that many copies, and those copies are likely spread out across the country.  Their customer presence any any particular areas is probably pretty small.


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## pemerton (Jun 24, 2021)

Maxperson said:


> It seemed to potentially agree with both of us.  It talked about how much business you do in a particular area being what the courts should look at, rather than just a presence on the world wide web.
> 
> I don't think(but don't know for sure) that Star Frontiers sells all that many copies, and those copies are likely spread out across the country.  Their customer presence any any particular areas is probably pretty small.



I think the prospects of WotC establishing that they have a protectable trademark in respect of Star Frontiers would be pretty good. In the market for RPGs it's a widely recognised mark, and has been for many years; and WotC and its predecessor TSR have sold many many copies of the game using that mark.


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## darjr (Jun 24, 2021)

So pick up your Star Frontiers PDFs ASAP. 
Cause I have a bad feeling about this.
Irony would be that “TSR” gets them unavailable because of their actions.


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## VelvetViolet (Jun 24, 2021)

Marc_C said:


> I'm not interested in yet another version without the original setting and races.



Ditto. I wish somebody would get a license from WotC to make a new edition of d20 Modern and revive TSR’s forgotten settings like Star Frontiers, Alternity, Amazing Engine, Gamma World, etc.

Does anybody have a comprehensive list of retroclones of the old TSR games/settings?


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## Urriak Uruk (Jun 24, 2021)

darjr said:


> So pick up your Star Frontiers PDFs ASAP.
> Cause I have a bad feeling about this.
> Irony would be that “TSR” gets them unavailable because of their actions.




Eh, I doubt WotC is going to tear them down because a tiny TSR thinks they can republish it. The silverback gorilla isn't going to back down from a mosquito bite!





__





						DriveThruRPG.com - Wizards of the Coast - Star Frontiers - The Largest RPG Download Store!
					

Your one-stop online shop for new and vintage RPG products from the top publishers, delivered fresh to your desktop in electronic format.




					www.drivethrurpg.com
				




Anyone interested, these products can be purchased from WotC here.


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## darjr (Jun 24, 2021)

Urriak Uruk said:


> Eh, I doubt WotC is going to tear them down because a tiny TSR thinks they can republish it. The silverback gorilla isn't going to back down from a mosquito bite!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No, but they’d listen to a judge. I know WotC would crush “TSR” if they so chose. But in the short term who knows? And WotC would have to decide to crush them. I think they would but PDFs have been pulled for stranger reasons. Short term being some indefinite time.

adding the link was nice. Thanks for that.


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## Urriak Uruk (Jun 24, 2021)

darjr said:


> No, but they’d listen to a judge. I know WotC would crush “TSR” if they so chose. But in the short term who knows? And WotC would have to decide to crush them. I think they would but PDFs have been pulled for stranger reasons.




Trademarks don't work retroactively like this. TSR created and owned these modules, WotC bought the company so owns the material. Another company registering a lapsed trademark (and the legality of even this is in doubt) doesn't mean that WotC can't keep selling the original material.

No judge, or even a bad lawyer, could reasonably conclude otherwise.


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## darjr (Jun 24, 2021)

@Urriak Uruk conceded.

Someone on face book shared this. I’m posting it just for more info and/or view. I dint necessarily agree or disagree with it.


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## darjr (Jun 24, 2021)

Here’s the old thread when Evil Hat registered the trademark.









						Is Evil Hat Republishing TSR's Star Frontiers?
					

Last year, Sasquatch Game Studio announced that it had acquired the trademark for TSR's old Alternity science-fiction game. At the time, it was mentioned that they did not have the Star*Drive, Dark*Matter, Gamma World, StarCraft Adventures, or Star Frontiers, properties owned by WotC. This may...




					www.enworld.org


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## Davies (Jun 24, 2021)

Shroompunk Warlord said:


> The hadozee originally appeared in the _Spelljammer_ campaign setting as a monster, and as a PC race in _The Complete Spacefarer's Handbook_. I've noticed the resemblance before, too, and I've always wondered if it was intentional... but if it was intentional, why did they change the name? If it wasn't intentional, it's a hell of a coincidence.



It wasn't a coincidence. There are thinly disguised Dralasites ("Degleash plasmoid"), Sathar ("syllix"), and Vrusk ("rastipede") in the same _Monstrous Compendium_ appendix that introduced the hadozee. I don't know why they did this, but it clearly was intentional.


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## DammitVictor (Jun 24, 2021)

Davies said:


> It wasn't a coincidence. There are thinly disguised Dralasites ("Degleash plasmoid"), Sathar ("syllix"), and Vrusk ("rastipede") in the same _Monstrous Compendium_ appendix that introduced the hadozee. I don't know why they did this, but it clearly was intentional.



Right, I forgot about vrusk and rastipedes because I generally forget about rastipedes. Were the plasmoids and syllix playable?


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## Davies (Jun 24, 2021)

Shroompunk Warlord said:


> Right, I forgot about vrusk and rastipedes because I generally forget about rastipedes. Were the plasmoids and syllix playable?



I don't think so.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 24, 2021)

Davies said:


> It wasn't a coincidence. There are thinly disguised Dralasites ("Degleash plasmoid"), Sathar ("syllix"), and Vrusk ("rastipede") in the same _Monstrous Compendium_ appendix that introduced the hadozee. I don't know why they did this, but it clearly was intentional.



What a weird, baffling thing to do. Were they worried about losing control of Star Frontiers and coming up with Baatzu-style backup names for all the player character species?


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## Davies (Jun 24, 2021)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> What a weird, baffling thing to do. Were they worried about losing control of Star Frontiers and coming up with Baatzu-style backup names for all the player character species?



I doubt anyone involved remembers their motivation, but I suspect that they were just being funny and/or silly.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 24, 2021)

Davies said:


> I doubt anyone involved remembers their motivation, but I suspect that they were just being funny and/or silly.



"Oh, you want four more monsters? I'll give you four more monsters!"


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## pemerton (Jun 25, 2021)

darjr said:


> Someone on face book shared this. I’m posting it just for more info and/or view. I dint necessarily agree or disagree with it.



Thanks for posting that. It answers my question upthread about what new TSR's use consists in - there isn't any yet!

The only point where I felt I disagreed was where it says no owns the Star Frontiers trademarks. I don't think that's quite right, because that is treating it as a system of _title by registration_ rather than _registration of title_. I'm also no IP expert, but my understanding is that in a common law jurisdiction trademarks are the latter, not the former. So I think WotC does own the Star Frontiers trademark - it is engaging in trade and commerce (via DriveThruRPG) using that distinctive mark for its goods and services - but does not have the benefits of registration (which include proof and, as per my discussion with Maxperson, geographical reach).

This really does seem like a fiasco on the new TSR side, unless there is some further dimension to this that we're all missing.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 25, 2021)

It sounds like the best case scenario, absent a licensing agreement, is they produce a game called Star Frontiers with the not-particularly-remembered rules system, but none of the original worlds or aliens. And they have to do it by December.

I would bet against this ever occurring.

That said, for people looking for a fun space game that can do a lot of what people did with Star Frontiers, I recommend Scum & Villainy.


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## aramis erak (Jun 25, 2021)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> What a weird, baffling thing to do. Were they worried about losing control of Star Frontiers and coming up with Baatzu-style backup names for all the player character species?



There were fan requests for crossovers once spelljammer was out. TSR was working on D&D 3E, and had implied it would be the universal core for all their other worlds.

Star Frontiers would have been one of those. I'm not at all surprised they'd port them over with different names, and then later have an AD&D 3 settingbook for Star Frontiers, making use of the Buck Rogers rules (which are a close variant on AD&D 2E)...  After all, it is canonical that the Beagle crashed on Mystara, and it was read by many as being from The Frontier. Many fans would have been thrilled to have the stats for using with Buck Rogers and/or Spelljammer. At the time, I would have.


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## darjr (Jun 25, 2021)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> It sounds like the best case scenario, absent a licensing agreement, is they produce a game called Star Frontiers with the not-particularly-remembered rules system, but none of the original worlds or aliens. And they have to do it by December.
> 
> I would bet against this ever occurring.
> 
> That said, for people looking for a fun space game that can do a lot of what people did with Star Frontiers, I recommend Scum & Villainy.



Well? How apropos!


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## aramis erak (Jun 25, 2021)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> That said, for people looking for a fun space game that can do a lot of what people did with Star Frontiers, I recommend Scum & Villainy.



The default mode assumed in rules is that players are essentially contractors doing troubleshooting for  Star Law or one of the Corps. The implied assumption is that the PC's aren't the scum/villains, but hired help for often legal but dangerous actions, especially when the Sathar War heats up. (There is a metaplot hidden in there.)
Many groups ran it more as D&D in space... but that doesn't seem to be the intended mode, where it's private contractors for a variety of mission types. Now, I've not read any adventures other than the ones in the boxed set and the movie tie-ins for 2001 and 2010, so I can't speak to later adventures, but the first one is PC's vs Environment with animal combat a possibility.

I'll note that, for Players willing to use the Fate Engine, Diaspora can be hacked very easily to do that kind of feel, or the Fate Core can be used with the same assumption as core SFAD - ships just take you where the mission is and drop you off.

Traveller can also cover that space, as can it's spinoff, Cepheus Engine. I don't know whether the guy with the Traveller Conversions of the races has taken his page down or not.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 25, 2021)

aramis erak said:


> The default mode assumed in rules is that players are essentially contractors doing troubleshooting for  Star Law or one of the Corps.



One of S&V's three modes is bounty hunters, which can get handwaved to Star Law pretty easily. (The other two are Firefly or Han Solo-as-rebel modes.)


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## aramis erak (Jun 25, 2021)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> One of S&V's three modes is bounty hunters, which can get handwaved to Star Law pretty easily. (The other two are Firefly or Han Solo-as-rebel modes.)



Firefly and the Rebel Transport modes are not ones that are open to starting characters in Star Frontiers RAW. This is largely because the ship operations skills have high prerequisites per SFKH.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 25, 2021)

aramis erak said:


> Firefly and the Rebel Transport modes are not ones that are open to starting characters in Star Frontiers RAW. This is largely because the ship operations skills have high prerequisites per SFKH.



Right, I was saying that Firefly and Han Solo modes are the other two modes of S&V. The not-Cowboy Bebop mode is the S&V mode that can be hacked to play something similar to Star Frontiers.


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## Dire Bare (Jun 25, 2021)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> It sounds like the best case scenario, absent a licensing agreement, is they produce a game called Star Frontiers with the not-particularly-remembered rules system, but none of the original worlds or aliens. And they have to do it by December.
> 
> I would bet against this ever occurring.
> 
> That said, for people looking for a fun space game that can do a lot of what people did with Star Frontiers, I recommend Scum & Villainy.



They don't even need to adapt the original rules system, they might just use the name "Star Frontiers". TSR 2.0 published a "Top Secret" game that doesn't use or adapt the original game rules, doesn't use the IP or setting . . . it's just another spy game using the name "Top Secret" without any real connection to the original . . . other than the main designer, Merle Rasmussen.


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## Marc_C (Jun 25, 2021)

Dire Bare said:


> They don't even need to adapt the original rules system, they might just use the name "Star Frontiers". TSR 2.0 published a "Top Secret" game that doesn't use or adapt the original game rules, doesn't use the IP or setting . . . it's just another spy game using the name "Top Secret" without any real connection to the original . . . other than the main designer, Merle Rasmussen.



Yep. The same thing happened with Alterity 2.0. The name Alternity was grabbed by Sasquatch. The system has nothing to do with the first version by OTSR.


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## MGibster (Jun 25, 2021)

This is an excellent illustration of what kind of confusion customers can experience  when trademarks are not clear.


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## pemerton (Jun 26, 2021)

MGibster said:


> This is an excellent illustration of what kind of confusion customers can experience  when trademarks are not clear.



Alternatively, it shows that the basic logic of trademarks works better for some products - eg food, cloths, perhaps cars - than for others like books and bands.


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## Dguffey (Aug 27, 2021)

darjr said:


> Not entirely true. WotC has had a skunkworks version of Star Frontiers for a while now.



I am made of questions!  where can I find this?


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## darjr (Aug 27, 2021)

Dguffey said:


> I am made of questions!  where can I find this?



Mearls brought it to GaryCon and ran a few games. It’s not available generally.


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## VelvetViolet (Aug 27, 2021)

I wish WotC would re-release the alternity ebooks they took down during their 2008 freakout.


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## Ghost2020 (Aug 27, 2021)

BoxCrayonTales said:


> I wish WotC would re-release the alternity ebooks they took down during their 2008 freakout.



YES PLEASE!!!


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## Umbran (Aug 28, 2021)

BoxCrayonTales said:


> I wish WotC would re-release the alternity ebooks they took down during their 2008 freakout.




There is now another game of that name, which might complicate matters.


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## Ghost2020 (Aug 28, 2021)

Oh that's right Sasquatch studio put that out.
They must own the name to Alternity.


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## VelvetViolet (Aug 30, 2021)

Ghost2020 said:


> Oh that's right Sasquatch studio put that out.
> They must own the name to Alternity.



I doubt they'd try to stop WotC. I imagine they probably want a license to reference the original materials.


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## Dire Bare (Aug 30, 2021)

Ghost2020 said:


> Oh that's right Sasquatch studio put that out.
> They must own the name to Alternity.



WotC allowed their trademark on the Alternity name to lapse, and Sasquatch picked it up for their _spiritual successor_ game to the original Alternity. However, Sasquatch doesn't have any rights to the IP associated with the original game, like the StarDrive or DarkMatter settings. They just have the name, and their version of the rules.

I don't think that would prevent WotC from releasing digital copies of the original game on drivethrurpg.com . . . . but they haven't done so yet, and there must be a reason . . . .


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## pemerton (Aug 31, 2021)

Dire Bare said:


> WotC allowed their trademark on the Alternity name to lapse, and Sasquatch picked it up for their _spiritual successor_ game to the original Alternity. However, Sasquatch doesn't have any rights to the IP associated with the original game, like the StarDrive or DarkMatter settings. They just have the name, and their version of the rules.
> 
> I don't think that would prevent WotC from releasing digital copies of the original game on drivethrurpg.com . . . . but they haven't done so yet, and there must be a reason . . . .



If Sasquatch own the _Alternity _trademark, then WotC would likely need to reach some sort of agreement with them before using that branding for products that it wishes to sell.


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## Dire Bare (Aug 31, 2021)

pemerton said:


> If Sasquatch own the _Alternity _trademark, then WotC would likely need to reach some sort of agreement with them before using that branding for products that it wishes to sell.



The original Alternity products? I'm not so sure . . . but, not a lawyer, so perhaps.


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## pemerton (Aug 31, 2021)

Dire Bare said:


> The original Alternity products? I'm not so sure . . . but, not a lawyer, so perhaps.



Yes, the original products. A trademark is an exclusive right to use a mark in the course of trade - relative to product and to market. That last bit introduces some complexity, but the basic point is that if Sasquatch owns the Alternity trademark then WotC cannot use that mark in the course of trade, if they're trying to sell the same product - a RPG - into the same market.


----------

