# [UPDATED AGAIN] Gary Gygax's Widow & TSR Settle Trademark Dispute



## Alzrius (Nov 24, 2015)

I guess all's well that ends well.


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## darjr (Nov 24, 2015)

Its good that they can settle.


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## Morrus (Nov 24, 2015)

I just got an update noting that Luke and Ernie have both withdrawn from TSR as a result of the settlement. Neither of them are affiliated with the company any longer.


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## darjr (Nov 24, 2015)

This doesn't seem good. Rats.


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## Alzrius (Nov 24, 2015)

Morrus said:


> I just got an update noting that Luke and Ernie have both withdrawn from TSR as a result of the settlement. Neither of them are affiliated with the company any longer.




Crap on a stick! That really casts a shadow over this entire resolution...to the point where I'm not sure it can even be called that.


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## darjr (Nov 24, 2015)

It has to suck to not have the legality to use your own last name, your fathers last name, for your own endeavors.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Nov 24, 2015)

Yeah that's kind of a bummer.  Gygax's stuff has been a mess since he died, hopefully this settlement doesn't end up torpedoing the magazine in the long run.


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## Alzrius (Nov 24, 2015)

Flexor the Mighty! said:


> Yeah that's kind of a bummer.  Gygax's stuff has been a mess since he died, hopefully this settlement doesn't end up torpedoing the magazine in the long run.




I feel optimistic in that regard. There are a lot of very talented people working on the magazine, and even if they aren't part of the staff anymore Luke and Ernie can still contribute articles.


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## mach1.9pants (Nov 24, 2015)

Mm intra-family disputes are not nice 

I hope this means that Gygax magazine will continue to sell and, maybe, we'll see Gary's IP opened up to 3P licencing for new products! Castle Zagyg not being finished was so sad .


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## Dire Bare (Nov 24, 2015)

If I understand the family history, Luke and Ernie are Gary's son by a previous spouse, not Gail. It's a shame that the two branches of the family don't seem to get along, but sometimes that's how it goes, I certainly hold no judgment on any of the parties involved.

Gary's last name is more than just a last name now shared with his sons, it's a trademark. That's part of the deal when you become famous! And Gary's wife, Gail, has every right to want to retain and control that trademark, even over any rights his son's might claim.

Luke and Ernie are more than just Gary's sons, they are both part of the history and legacy of D&D as they were some of its earliest players! But, they are not its creators, nor are they (to the best of my knowledge) significant contributors. It is a bit weird and a shame they can't capitalize on their own last name and their connection with their father, but, Gail's rights do take precedence, both legally and morally (IMO).

But with this settlement, I don't think fans of Gygax magazine have anything to worry about. The magazine gets to retain its title and continue on, business as usual. Well, perhaps minus a licensing fee maybe. It's a bummer that Luke and Ernie felt the need to leave the company over this decision, but I can respect their feelings.

Still though, whenever I check out the magazine's website, I can't escape the feeling that between Gygax's name, the company's name, and the ripped-off trade dress from Dragon, that there is too much of a appeal to nostalgia, more than quality of content. It feels, disingenuous, to me.


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## Nikosandros (Nov 24, 2015)

I'm sure that Gail has the legal rights, but what is she doing with Gary's IP? She's just sitting on it. Of course it is her privilege, but it's still disappointing.


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## skraig1 (Nov 24, 2015)

EGG Jr. Is actively creating his own MegaDungeon, the Marmorial Tomb. It was a very successful Kickstarter campaign. $126,110 to be exact. He even posted today so he does not appear to be very discouraged. Let's all hope for the best, maybe after piloting his own IP out into the world he will have the opportunity to bring us some of the unpublished work from the old days.


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## Cody C. Lewis (Nov 24, 2015)

What a damn shame.

To me this reeks of pettiness.

This is pure speculation, but I can't think of any other scenarios:

Either: 
a.) Part of the agreement from Gail was that the sons are no longer affiliated. Petty
b.) The other founders were so upset at being put into this predicament they forced the brothers out. Petty
c.) The brothers were so ashamed or upset at the events they walked away. Petty
d.) Maybe the incident put such a bad taste in their mouths they lost their desire to continue. Understandable
e.) I don't know, probably something to do with the "Time Warp". The song... not anything 'Doctor Who' related


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Nov 24, 2015)

Dire Bare said:


> If I understand the family history, Luke and Ernie are Gary's son by a previous spouse, not Gail. It's a shame that the two branches of the family don't seem to get along, but sometimes that's how it goes, I certainly hold no judgment on any of the parties involved.
> 
> Gary's last name is more than just a last name now shared with his sons, it's a trademark. That's part of the deal when you become famous! And Gary's wife, Gail, has every right to want to retain and control that trademark, even over any rights his son's might claim.
> 
> ...




Have you read a copy of the magazine?  Issue 1 was not that great but it gotten better and has covered AD&D, 5e, general D&D stuff, Godlike, Top Secret, DCC, and general RPG stuff.  Its a mix of old and new.  Yes the magazine is definitely channelling Dragon from the Mohan era but its not bad.


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## Dire Bare (Nov 24, 2015)

Flexor the Mighty! said:


> Have you read a copy of the magazine?  Issue 1 was not that great but it gotten better and has covered AD&D, 5e, general D&D stuff, Godlike, Top Secret, DCC, and general RPG stuff.  Its a mix of old and new.  Yes the magazine is definitely channelling Dragon from the Mohan era but its not bad.




I remember looking at early issues and not being overly impressed. I'll totally believe you if you tell me that the magazine has improved significantly. And, I am actually glad it exists, as it obviously fills a need and you can never have enough gaming zines.

I'm even tempted to purchase some of the more recent issues, and I'm sure I'd find something fun. Each individual "sin" (using the word tongue-in-cheek) isn't all that bad by itself, but collectively, appropriating the old company name, appropriating Gygax's last name, and appropriating the EXACT SAME TRADE DRESS as a particular era of Dragon . . . it's too much, and turns me off to the product.

Nostalgia is cool, but for me, they've gone too far. Not that anybody should care about that, it's just the reason I never gave the magazine much attention, and probably won't in the future.


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## Dire Bare (Nov 24, 2015)

dakotahorn said:


> What a damn shame.
> 
> To me this reeks of pettiness.
> 
> ...




I don't see the situation as petty. Gail, Gary's widow, had certain goals and desires that conflicted with the goals/desires of Gary's sons. It's a shame, but folks disagree and can become upset over outcomes without pettiness being involved.

And ultimately, while we are all curious and we're all talking about it, it isn't any of our business. I'm very certain we don't have all the details, and probably never will. As long as the magazine keeps trucking and making its fans happy, really, what else is there?


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## Dire Bare (Nov 24, 2015)

skraig1 said:


> EGG Jr. Is actively creating his own MegaDungeon, the Marmorial Tomb. It was a very successful Kickstarter campaign. $126,110 to be exact. He even posted today so he does not appear to be very discouraged. Let's all hope for the best, maybe after piloting his own IP out into the world he will have the opportunity to bring us some of the unpublished work from the old days.




Just checked this out, and sorry I missed it! Haven't gotten into the OSR scene, but this Kickstarter offering looks like its packed full of awesome!

Hopefully, all of the important parts will be available online at some point (legally).


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## Dire Bare (Nov 24, 2015)

Nikosandros said:


> I'm sure that Gail has the legal rights, but what is she doing with Gary's IP? She's just sitting on it. Of course it is her privilege, but it's still disappointing.




Do you really know that? Or, perhaps, is Gail and her partners working on things you just aren't aware of? I don't know. You don't either.


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## Waller (Nov 24, 2015)

Dire Bare said:


> And ultimately, while we are all curious and we're all talking about it, it isn't any of our busines




Sure it is. While they email Morrus with the details for publication, it's totally our business.


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## delericho (Nov 24, 2015)

Dire Bare said:


> Gary's last name is more than just a last name now shared with his sons, it's a trademark. That's part of the deal when you become famous! And Gary's wife, Gail, has every right to want to retain and control that trademark, even over any rights his son's might claim.




Except that she apparently applied for the Trademark in March 2013 and Gygax Magazine #1 was released in Feb of that year. It's lucky the settlement suits everyone, because otherwise it might have gotten... interesting.


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## TerraDave (Nov 24, 2015)

It would be a shame if this means that no Gygax is involved with Gygax magazine.


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## Morrus (Nov 24, 2015)

*[UPDATED] Gary Gygax's Widow & TSR Settle Trademark Dispute*



delericho said:


> Except that she apparently applied for the Trademark in March 2013 and Gygax Magazine #1 was released in Feb of that year. It's lucky the settlement suits everyone, because otherwise it might have gotten... interesting.




If I had to guess, it's that it took her by surprise. When it appeared suddenly with the TSR and Gygax names etc, folks were very "WTH?!"

We didn't even know Luke and Ernie were involved at first. I uncovered Jayson Elliot's connection by checking domain names. I tried to contact him at the time, but got no reply.

It doesn't seem like there's much goodwill anywhere in this whole situation.


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## delericho (Nov 24, 2015)

Morrus said:


> If I had to guess, it's that it took her by surprise. When it appeared suddenly with the TSR and Gygax names etc, folks were very "WTH?!"




Indeed. But, of course, the law doesn't really care about 'surprise' - either what TSR did was legal or it was not. And I _think_ it was probably legal, but of course IANAL.


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## Nikosandros (Nov 24, 2015)

Dire Bare said:


> Do you really know that? Or, perhaps, is Gail and her partners working on things you just aren't aware of? I don't know. You don't either.




Well, Gygax Games site has been in suspended animation for what? 6-7 years? Maybe they're working on something super-secret and one day we'll see the super deluxe edition of Castle Zagyg. I'm highly skeptical, but I'll be glad to be proven wrong.


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## Mark CMG (Nov 24, 2015)

Dire Bare said:


> Gail, Gary's widow, had certain goals and desires





Such as?  Aside from the memorial statue for which the Gygax Memorial Fund was conceived and started in 2010 to solicit donations (and was given the go-ahead with its location of Donian Park in 2011), I'm not aware of any use being made of the IP.


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## Olaf the Stout (Nov 25, 2015)

I've read the first 4 issues of Gygax Magazine.  It struck me as a magazine not sure what it is trying to be and trying to cover way to many different and diverse RPGs, making the magazine as a whole feel really disjointed.  I can't see myself getting any more issues.


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## Vampyr3 (Nov 25, 2015)

how is it you get all these updates and letters?


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## Morrus (Nov 25, 2015)

Vampyr3 said:


> how is it you get all these updates and letters?




Magic.

Or 16 years of hard work.

One of the two, I guess.


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## JohnRTroy (Nov 25, 2015)

One thing people really need to remember is that regardless of whether or not people approve of Gail actions (or inactions), there's a bunch of stuff people need to remember.

Gail was Gary's wife for over 20 years.

Gary incorporated all his writings post-TSR to Gail.

Gail did a lot of work behind the scenes to make sure Gary could afford to keep writing.

It's pretty clear that Gary left all his IP and works to Gail, not any other Gygax family member.

Luke and Ernie weren't not really involved in Gary's creative endeavors.  That's a fact.  Post-TSR they really didn't contribute a lot to Gary's creative endeavors. Luke played in Gary's DJ and LA campaigns, while Ernie stuck to board games.  I could understand if they were working on products for him and suddenly Gail cut them out, but that's not the reality of the situation.  It was only after Gary had died that they started getting involved in the games industry again.

It's very easy to look at the "legacy" of the game and look up to Luke and Ernie for playing Melf and Tenser, but that's more of a projection we the fans make.  Note that nobody ever goes and tries to find Alex Gygax since he wasn't part of that D&D legacy--no Greyhawk item for him.  But playing a game doesn't mean you inherited the business.  And many of us don't know the behind the scenes stuff involving family entanglements or disagreements.  And many people look at their own subjective views--Luke and Ernie are doing stuff we gamers like, Gail is not, and judge on that merit, but that's mostly on our own desires for Gary's legacy than any form of objectivity about deeper moral or legal issues involved.

It's sad that there's a rift, disagreements, etc.  But it is what it is.


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## BRW Games (Nov 25, 2015)

Someone has been giving Gail the terrible advice to hold on to the Gygax IP like a vice (really, trademarking a term like "Gygaxian", that's been in common use for decades?), hoping that someone will offer her a boatload of cash to turn it into some computer game. Ain't ever gonna happen, and she's just hurting herself by shutting down every small potential revenue source in the hopes of making some big score. Her advisers in this matter have badly used her.


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## Odhanan (Nov 25, 2015)

JohnRTroy said:


> Luke and Ernie weren't not really involved in Gary's creative endeavors.  That's a fact.  Post-TSR they really didn't contribute a lot to Gary's creative endeavors. Luke played in Gary's DJ and LA campaigns, while Ernie stuck to board games.  I could understand if they were working on products for him and suddenly Gail cut them out, but that's not the reality of the situation.  It was only after Gary had died that they started getting involved in the games industry again.




That is incorrect. Actually Ernest participated general concepts and advice on Dangerous Journeys, and that is why he is thanked next to Gail and Luke in the Mythus book. 

Also, Troll Lord Games published the Lost City of Gaxmoor before Gary departed, a module co-authored by both Ernest and Luke which Gary looked upon with great pride if you go back to Gary's Q&A here and on Dragonsfoot where he talked about it a few times. In fact, he was happy to see them do something in the gaming industry, to the point that, when he found the statues in Gaxmoor lacking in terms of effects, he contributed ideas for what they could do, and that's how in the Gaxmoor book you see a dedication to the great Archmage Zagig, aka Gary Gygax (Lost City of Gaxmoor page 102+). 

So, while neither Ernest nor Luke were deeply involved in either Dangerous Journeys and LA, it is factually incorrect that they came back to the gaming industry after their father's death. The implication that their father wouldn't have looked favorably upon further gaming endeavors on both of Ernie's and Luke's parts using their own given names would be equally incorrect.


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## JohnRTroy (Nov 25, 2015)

Odhanan said:


> Also, Troll Lord Games published the Lost City of Gaxmoor before Gary departed, a module co-authored by both Ernest and Luke which Gary looked upon with great pride if you go back to Gary's Q&A here and on Dragonsfoot where he talked about it a few times. In fact, he was happy to see them do something in the gaming industry, to the point that, when he found the statues in Gaxmoor lacking in terms of effects, he contributed ideas for what they could do, and that's how in the Gaxmoor book you see a dedication to the great Archmage Zagig, aka Gary Gygax (Lost City of Gaxmoor page 102+).
> 
> So, while neither Ernest nor Luke were deeply involved in either Dangerous Journeys and LA, it is factually incorrect that they came back to the gaming industry after their fathers death, nor the implication that their father wouldn't have looked favorably on further gaming endeavors from them using their own names.




You misread my statement.  There are three things that Ernie has contributed to.  Some areas involving business rules for Dangerous Journeys, the Gamma World module, and Lost City of Gaxmoor.  But outside of this, the contributions were minor.  Ernie was not "into Roleplaying games as much as board games", a direct quote from Gary.  I'm measure their contributions in two ways--what they did with Gary under the Trigee banner--in which case guys like Chris Clark and Jon Creffield did a LOT more involved in those endeavors, as well as their general rank in the industry--guys like Frank Mentzer and other did a lot more back in those days, and many other TSR staff have been proven self-publishers or working at other companies.  Again, they really didn't make any major efforts into publishing or things like GaryCon until afterwards.

As far as "looking favorably" on working in the industry--yes, I'm sure Gary is proud of doing that Kickstarter, as well as GaryCon.  However, trademarking the surname Gygax is another matter.  I really don't think Gary would approve of doing anything that might be considered an end-run around Gary's own wishes for inheritance of his property.  Trademarking the generic Gygax could even prevent the person he gave all his IP to from doing anything--in fact, Gary never trademarked his own name because he was concerned about somebody taking it away like that.  I'm sure he would be proud if they used Ernie and Luke Gygax, Gygax Brothers Magazine, etc.


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## JohnLynch (Nov 25, 2015)

JohnRTroy said:


> Luke and Ernie weren't not really involved in Gary's creative endeavors.  That's a fact.  Post-TSR they really didn't contribute a lot to Gary's creative endeavors. Luke played in Gary's DJ and LA campaigns, while Ernie stuck to board games.  I could understand if they were working on products for him and suddenly Gail cut them out, but that's not the reality of the situation.  It was only after Gary had died that they started getting involved in the games industry again.



I'm not saying your saying this, but I will say this myself: You could interpret their actions since their father's death as a cash grab (although I don't know how much cash they could be grabbing and how much work is involved in the so called grabbing). However from my own family's history: When my great grandfather died he had some war medals from World War I and II. There was a dispute at the time as to who they had been bequeathed to and who should have them. My father and grandfather didn't care too much at the time so they gave up their claim and someone else in the family got them. Years later my father started researching his grandfather. Interviewed old war buddies who knew his grandfather and everything. Wrote an entire book on my great grandfather's life. Even hunted down some medals that my great grandfather was eligible for and got them sent to him. He then gave all this to my grandfather who was the only living male out of his siblings. After reading the book the medals became much more important to him and he arranged to get the medals so he could wear them in marches and somehow ended up with them permanently.

All of this is to say that when my great grandfather was alive, his time in the war (which he almost always refused to talk about) and the medals weren't of any great importance to my father or grandfather. But as the years went on they became much more important to both of them. Although Luke and Ernie Gygax's involvement in D&D may have been non-existent when Gary was alive or immediately following his death, there is certainly the possibility that Dungeons & Dragons has since become much more important to them for sentimental reasons rather than financial reasons (my father certainly considered trying to get his book commercially published despite the fact that wasn't the initial reason behind writing it).

As for what Gygax would and would not look favourably upon, all I'll say is my great grandfather left his medals to two different people (3, although one of those claims was highly questionable). There was no clear intent as to what he would have wanted and so those who survived him did what they thought was best in the situation and not necessarily what he would have wanted. I expect those in the Gygax family are doing the same, regardless of what personal benefit they may or may not receive from doing so.

Just my perspective on the issue as someone who is normally quite cynical.


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## Morrus (Nov 25, 2015)

Ernie Gygax has made a (public) FB post about the matter:

"It is with a heavy heart that I have had to remove myself from TSR and GYGAX magazine. Benoist and I will continue to share original old school gaming. All of which I learned at my fathers side, just as Luke and I also learned how to repair shoes in our youth. I am awake now at 2:42 AM as foolishness infringes on my ability to even enjoy a sound nights rest. I am proud to one of Gary's many offspring and just wish that I had his drive and fortitude to generate material as he did. Yet the acorn doesn't fall far from the Oak and the work that will be created will be in honor of his memory. I wish it to be said that both Tim Kask and R Scott Taylor refused to sign the deal as well when asked."


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## JeffB (Nov 25, 2015)

Gail bas legal rights. I get that. She wants to protect those legal rights. I get that.

But she has done nothing but try to squash anything gaming related since Gary's death..Which puts her on my -list. Boo Gail.


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## darjr (Nov 25, 2015)

Tenkar over at Tenkars Tavern takes a look at the Gygax Memorial fund.

http://www.tenkarstavern.com/2015/11/a-closer-look-at-gygax-memorial-fund.html?m=1


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## Cody C. Lewis (Nov 25, 2015)

Dire Bare said:


> I don't see the situation as petty. Gail, Gary's widow, had certain goals and desires that conflicted with the goals/desires of Gary's sons. It's a shame, but folks disagree and can become upset over outcomes without pettiness being involved.
> 
> And ultimately, while we are all curious and we're all talking about it, it isn't any of our business. I'm very certain we don't have all the details, and probably never will. As long as the magazine keeps trucking and making its fans happy, really, what else is there?




How would any of the scenarios be petty?


How would they not? If, again if and I'm not claiming to know the details even in the slightest, but if someone was forced out of their job because they were using their own name (Obviously not quite that simple, but you get my point). How is that not petty?


Also, I think it is certainly our business. We are hobbyists. We are the consumers. It is absolutely our business.


Morrus certainly thought this was pertinent. And anybody who consumes any product that has a desire to know better the people they give their money to is justified to ask questions about the company they support.


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## Ralif Redhammer (Nov 25, 2015)

Whatever Gary’s wishes were regarding his IP, I’m sure he would’ve wanted people to play his games and enjoy the products of his work. Instead, Castle Zagyg, Lejendary Adventures, and more all sit in limbo.



Nikosandros said:


> I'm sure that Gail has the legal rights, but what is she doing with Gary's IP? She's just sitting on it. Of course it is her privilege, but it's still disappointing.


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## delericho (Nov 25, 2015)

darjr said:


> Tenkar over at Tenkars Tavern takes a look at the Gygax Memorial fund.
> 
> http://www.tenkarstavern.com/2015/11/a-closer-look-at-gygax-memorial-fund.html?m=1




Ouch. That really doesn't sound good.


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## darjr (Nov 25, 2015)

From Benoist Poiré Ernest Gary Guygax Jr coauthor on the Marmoreal Tomb the Hobbiest dungeon.

https://plus.google.com/+BenoistPoiré/posts/Fb69RwQbFPZ


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## MartyW (Nov 25, 2015)

Ralif Redhammer said:


> Whatever Gary’s wishes were regarding his IP, I’m sure he would’ve wanted people to play his games and enjoy the products of his work. Instead, Castle Zagyg, Lejendary Adventures, and more all sit in limbo.




Nail on the head. Instead of leveraging Gygax's IP, she's flushing it down the toilet... and regardless if Gary left her the rights to his IP, Luke and Ernie's name is ALSO GYGAX. They were't using Gary's IP, they were using their own freakin' last name for the magazine.

Shame on Gail. They were at least doing something in gaming that contributes to the family name and legacy. She's just... I don't know what she's doing because she is basically preventing anyone from reprinting any of Gary's work from the post-TSR era.


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## tenkar (Nov 25, 2015)

Gail Gygax has agreed to - I dunno - read a post over at The Tavern where I will present her with questions from the community about the Gygax Memorial Fund only. I'm not looking to muddy the waters with the rest of the drama at this point. The Fund has enough questions.

If you have questions for Gail in regards to the fund, add a comment at the following

http://www.tenkarstavern.com/2015/11/a-closer-look-at-gygax-memorial-fund_38.html


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## Benji (Nov 25, 2015)

They should just release a new magazine called "Sons of Gygax! [Tagline] No Relation! Except Of Course, For The Fact We're Actually Related...God This Is Awkard, Could You Just Buy The Magazine Already?". 

Ludicrous. Soon we'll have have to refer to him as Mr.X when we post for fear of legal action.


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## SpringHeeledJack (Nov 25, 2015)

Having watched this from the end of the Castle Zagyg screwjob to now only makes me wish certain people would just go away.


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## JohnRTroy (Nov 28, 2015)

MartyW said:


> Shame on Gail. They were at least doing something in gaming that contributes to the family name and legacy. She's just... I don't know what she's doing because she is basically preventing anyone from reprinting any of Gary's work from the post-TSR era.




To be fair on this though.  Gary's "legacy" doesn't depend on any of Gary's descendants including Gail.  The Legacy of Gary is that he co-created D&D and was the driving force behind Greyhawk and a lot of stuff we love.  And coverage of that legacy is done by biographies and game historians--sheesh, he has a very large entry on Wikipedia and has had things in science named after him.  

The little IP that Gary left to Gail has is probably never going to be that relevant in the large scheme of things--LA ran for a decade and it might not be worth reprinting since it wasn't a high seller, and Castle Zagyg was unfinished and was a troubled project, and Gary just died too soon.  I would love to see it published someday, but I don't think the lack of it will have any effect on his legacy.

The legacy of Gary is preserved, at least as long as D&D remains relevant--nothing lasts forever culturally, except the most important stuff--500 years from now I doubt D&D or Gygax will be anything remembered, since when that much time passes whole civilizations change.  

I think too many people worry about this way too much.


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## SpringHeeledJack (Nov 29, 2015)

You are such a brown nosing tool, JRT. When Gail stops walking do you get nervous because you might break your nose?


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## CapnZapp (Nov 29, 2015)

Ouch.


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## Morrus (Nov 29, 2015)

SpringHeeledJack said:


> You are such a brown nosing tool, JRT. When Gail stops walking do you get nervous because you might break your nose?




Name-calling is not acceptable. Please do not post in this thread again.


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## Mark CMG (Nov 29, 2015)

JohnRTroy said:


> To be fair on this though.  Gary's "legacy" doesn't depend on any of Gary's descendants including Gail.  The Legacy of Gary is that he co-created D&D and was the driving force behind Greyhawk and a lot of stuff we love.  And coverage of that legacy is done by biographies and game historians--sheesh, he has a very large entry on Wikipedia and has had things in science named after him.





Legacies can live on if they are tied to celebrations and good times.  They can also be damaged by the actions and efforts of those in charge of them.  The statue design is gauche and will be an eyesore if constructed as shown.  It should have been erected in a simpler form years ago.  Whoever has advised her to make this complicated and difficult can see the results.  If it were simplified it could be done yesterday, then time and effort could be put toward the written materials portion of Gary's legacy.  The thing is, everyone has a legacy and putting up Gary's statue and handling Gary's legacy is actually someone else's legacy.




JohnRTroy said:


> The little IP that Gary left to Gail has is probably never going to be that relevant in the large scheme of things--LA ran for a decade and it might not be worth reprinting since it wasn't a high seller, and Castle Zagyg was unfinished and was a troubled project, and Gary just died too soon.





Print on Demand has virtually no overhead.  It allows previously published materials to be evergreen and always available.  Even if nothing new from Gary's unpublished materials are brought to light (which I would think many people would want), it makes no sense that the minimal step hasn't been taken of making previously published materials for which Gary had rights available in POD format.  POD sales of previously published materials could have already generated a half a decade of revenue to be put toward the statue or for organizing and publishing previously unpublished materials.




JohnRTroy said:


> The legacy of Gary is preserved, at least as long as D&D remains relevant--nothing lasts forever culturally, except the most important stuff--500 years from now I doubt D&D or Gygax will be anything remembered, since when that much time passes whole civilizations change.
> 
> I think too many people worry about this way too much.





Not everyone shares the opinion that all there is now for the legacy is for it to begin to fade.  You've been white-knighting someone who is generally believed to be getting really bad advice and the positions you hold regarding legacies also seem to be really bad advice.  When people look toward the Gygax Memorial Fund to see how the legacy has been handled since Gary's passing, opinions may differ on the aesthetics of the statue design.  Fair enough.  But there is no doubt that it could have been made simpler and therefore less expensive, and thus might already be constructed.  It's also true that if they look toward the fund to see what has been done regarding Gary's previously published (stuff for which he held the rights) and unpublished materials they will find nothing old reprinted and nothing new made available in any format.  The website is lacking and the transparency that once was cultivated has fallen away for the last couple of years.  Even you must know that not being advised to keep up the transparency and website makes, at the least, her advisers look less than adequate if not bad.  Why would YOU not drop her a line regarding the obvious problems?  A quick glance at the website and it jumps up and pokes you in the eye (screencap below).  Impossible to miss if you have her interests at heart and glance over the website for less time than it takes to read this thread.

I did a quick search before writing this post to see what your opinions were regarding Gary's legacy closer to his passing.  Do me a favor, check out those old posts of yours before responding to my post, if responding is even crossing your mind.  We don't really need to have a back-and-forth if your opinion is essentially unchanged.


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## JohnRTroy (Nov 29, 2015)

Mark CMG said:


> Why would YOU not drop her a line regarding the obvious problems?  A quick glance at the website and it jumps up and pokes you in the eye (screencap below).  Impossible to miss if you have her interests at heart and glance over the website for less time than it takes to read this thread.




We weren't discussing the memorial project here in this thread.  But I definitely have told Gail to get her memorial web site up to date and to make more updates.  As for the design of the memorial--I suspect people are looking at that picture and thinking it's a final idea, rather than an artistic concept.  I doubt the final product would look bad.  

Please don't mistake my defense of Gail for saying I always agree with her.


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## Mark CMG (Nov 29, 2015)

JohnRTroy said:


> We weren't discussing the memorial project here in this thread.





Any discussion of Gary's legacy includes the Gygax Memorial Fund by default.




JohnRTroy said:


> Please don't mistake my defense of Gail for saying I always agree with her.





I've seen nothing in your posts since Gary's passing showing any disagreement whatsoever regarding the manner in which she handles Gary's legacy.  There's no mistaking that.


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## Dire Bare (Nov 29, 2015)

JohnRTroy said:


> To be fair on this though.  Gary's "legacy" doesn't depend on any of Gary's descendants including Gail.  The Legacy of Gary is that he co-created D&D and was the driving force behind Greyhawk and a lot of stuff we love.  And coverage of that legacy is done by biographies and game historians--sheesh, he has a very large entry on Wikipedia and has had things in science named after him.
> 
> The little IP that Gary left to Gail has is probably never going to be that relevant in the large scheme of things--LA ran for a decade and it might not be worth reprinting since it wasn't a high seller, and Castle Zagyg was unfinished and was a troubled project, and Gary just died too soon.  I would love to see it published someday, but I don't think the lack of it will have any effect on his legacy.
> 
> ...




This.

None of us have full information, and this family dispute is none of our business. The situation is unfortunate, but Gary's "legacy" isn't besmirched. Those criticizing either party, Gail Gygax or Gary's son's, are doing so from a place of ignorance. Especially the veiled accusations of fraud toward's Gygax's wife.

It'd be nice if a memorial was built for Gary at some point, but if it doesn't come together, it's not the end of the world. It'd be nice if some of Gary's older work (unfinished or otherwise) saw print again someday, but if not, we aren't missing out on Gary's "legacy".

I agree with John. Way too many people are worrying about this way too much. The heated emotions, veiled accusations, and name-calling has gone way too far. I really doubt Gary would be happy with the dispute between members of his family, but I'd bet he'd be even less happy with some of his fans acting the way they are right now.


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## Cody C. Lewis (Nov 29, 2015)

Dire Bare said:


> This.
> 
> None of us have full information, and this family dispute is none of our business.




You keep saying it's not our business, and I will continue to disagree. We are the consumer, and we certainly may ask whatever questions we would like especially if it may affect where our future dollars go. Just Google Valero, I certainly do not give them any business.

Also, I don't know about anyone else's family, but I believe once someone actually takes a family member to court, it is way past 'family dispute'.


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## El_Gringo (Nov 29, 2015)

dakotahorn said:


> You keep saying it's not our business, and I will continue to disagree. We are the consumer, and we certainly may ask whatever questions we would like especially if it may affect where our future dollars go. Just Google Valero, I certainly do not give them any business.
> 
> Also, I don't know about anyone else's family, but I believe once someone actually takes a family member to court, it is way past 'family dispute'.




I think it would be proper to call her statement a press release. It's definitely within the purview of public discussion. While it's true we don't have all the information, Gail's decision to release a public statement will naturally draw speculation. It will either result in the release of more information or it will be a nebulous situation that will never be clarified. Either way, this discussion was brought about by one of the parties involved. They wanted this.


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## tenkar (Nov 29, 2015)

The Gygax Memorial Fund is looking for people to donate - that makes it everyone's business. 

Trademark disputes and the like are a separate issue.


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## Nikosandros (Nov 30, 2015)

tenkar said:


> The Gygax Memorial Fund is looking for people to donate - that makes it everyone's business.




Exactly. People and organizations (such as WotC) have already donated more than 200k to the Fund. Wanting to know  what's going to happen with that money is legitimate.


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## Nikosandros (Nov 30, 2015)

Both parties involved have made public statements (a press release in case of Gail Gygax) and so the issue has been made public and is a legitimate topic of discussion.


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## Dire Bare (Nov 30, 2015)

dakotahorn said:


> You keep saying it's not our business, and I will continue to disagree. We are the consumer, and we certainly may ask whatever questions we would like especially if it may affect where our future dollars go. Just Google Valero, I certainly do not give them any business.
> 
> Also, I don't know about anyone else's family, but I believe once someone actually takes a family member to court, it is way past 'family dispute'.






tenkar said:


> The Gygax Memorial Fund is looking for people to donate - that makes it everyone's business.
> 
> Trademark disputes and the like are a separate issue.






Nikosandros said:


> Both parties involved have made public statements (a press release in case of Gail Gygax) and so the issue has been made public and is a legitimate topic of discussion.




Discussing possible future products from Gary's legacy is legit, and discussing a charity that you've donated to (or plan to donate to) is also legit.

And, although tangentially related, the discussion regarding the family dispute long ago crossed the line into "none of our business" and also, IMO, highly inappropriate. Reading some of the comments on ENWorld, Tenkar's blog, and other places regarding the rift between Gail and Gary's sons, there is a lot of mean-spiritedness, accusations, and name-calling from folks who have very little information to base their ignorant comments on.

As Umbran said in another thread, running a charity is not a trivial thing, even a small one. And while I'm sure honoring her late husband is one of Gail's priorities, I doubt her life centers around the charity (nor should it) and it's not like she came into this with experience in the matter. I can understand her wanting to control her late husband's legacy, as he bequeathed it to her, and I can also understand if she is hesitant to engage with the fan community, as our loudest voices are impatient, insulting, armchair quarterbacking, and more than a bit whiney.


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## Cody C. Lewis (Nov 30, 2015)

Dire Bare said:


> Reading some of the comments on ENWorld, Tenkar's blog, and other places regarding the rift between Gail and Gary's sons, there is a lot of mean-spiritedness, accusations, and name-calling from folks who have very little information to base their ignorant comments on.




I would not disagree with this statement.

My disagreement is the thought that the community has zero business trying to discern the events that have transpired. Lucas, even before selling SW to Disney, didn't own Star Wars; the fans did. I feel the same way about a lot of the things the Gary was involved in. And it goes far beyond _just_ the things that were still his IP. His memory, his accomplishments, his legacy - those are ours.

Gail/whoever does not "own" Gary's legacy, we do. X person won't live indefinitely, but hopefully, Gary and Dave's accomplishments can be appreciated for at least a few more decades.

If the 'family dispute' was over who gets the cat's ashes when it dies... you're right, that is not our business. But when IP, lawsuits, and family members are losing their jobs are all involved... we're going to ask questions.


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## Dire Bare (Nov 30, 2015)

dakotahorn said:


> My disagreement is the thought that the community has zero business trying to discern the events that have transpired. Lucas, even before selling SW to Disney, didn't own Star Wars; the fans did. I feel the same way about a lot of the things the Gary was involved in. And it goes far beyond _just_ the things that were still his IP. His memory, his accomplishments, his legacy - those are ours.
> 
> Gail/whoever does not "own" Gary's legacy, we do. X person won't live indefinitely, but hopefully, Gary and Dave's accomplishments can be appreciated for at least a few more decades.
> 
> If the 'family dispute' was over who gets the cat's ashes when it dies... you're right, that is not our business. But when IP, lawsuits, and family members are losing their jobs are all involved... we're going to ask questions.




Before he sold to Disney, Lucas very much DID own Star Wars, lock, stock, and barrel. As a fan, you own nothing. Your enjoyment of Star Wars and your participation in the hobby or fandom of Star Wars, that's yours. Fans had no say in Lucas' decision to sell to Disney, and they don't have a right to know any of the details of the sale or why Lucas chose to do so. If Lucas chooses to share his thoughts and reasons (which, I'm fairly certain he did), that's his call.

Gygax's "legacy" is no different. Gail very much DOES own the rights to Gary's work and IP, and DOES have control over his legacy, or at least an aspect of it (the memorial and his name). Gary's fans do not own anything other than their own enjoyment, memories, and participation in the hobby Gary started.

Memorial or no memorial, publication of Dangerous Journeys or no publication, Gary's legacy is not diminished, tarnished, or otherwise lessened.

How Gail Gygax chooses to manage her husband's legacy (to the degree that she can) is her business. If she defrauds donors to the charity (which we have ZERO evidence of), that's a bit different. But otherwise, we have no say, legally or morally.

You might guess I'm not one to support fan entitlement. YMMV.


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## mflayermonk (Nov 30, 2015)

This is turning into a Shakespearean tragedy. (I can't say Gygaxian, there is a trademark on that.)


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## Mark CMG (Nov 30, 2015)

Dire Bare said:


> Reading some of the comments on ENWorld, Tenkar's blog, and other places regarding the rift between Gail and Gary's sons, there is a lot of mean-spiritedness, accusations, and name-calling from folks (. . .)
> 
> (. . .) the fan community, as our loudest voices are impatient, insulting, armchair quarterbacking, and more than a bit whiney.





The worst of it comes from you, time and again.  You repeatedly stir the pot to try and steer folks from discussing the situation and the facts, and to ask questions.  You repeatedly tell others that the discussion should not be taking place and that no one has any business doing so.  I disagree with your position and find your tactics less than helpful.


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## tenkar (Nov 30, 2015)

Gail responded:

http://www.tenkarstavern.com/2015/11/gail-gygax-responds-to-communitys.html


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Nov 30, 2015)

I do have to wonder where the memorial donations are going and why tax returns for the non profit are not being disclosed as required. 

In any event It is sad that when Gary died the project in process, Castle Zygag was pulled from TLG and then Gary's IP has been sitting for how many years now with no indications that anything else is going to come out of it.  At least I got material to use for a few games from Gygax magazine, including an adventure written by Ernie.  The whole situation is just a bummer.


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## Cody C. Lewis (Nov 30, 2015)

Sorry man. I just don't agree with you. 

Since you continue to say that this is not our business, I will rebuttal with our concern is not your business.

I very much look forward to Gail's responses in regards to the memorial.


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## Dire Bare (Nov 30, 2015)

mflayermonk said:


> This is turning into a Shakespearean tragedy. (I can't say Gygaxian, there is a trademark on that.)




No way man, if this was a Shakespearean tragedy, then everybody would be dead by now!

If this were a Gygaxian tragedy, then one party would have slain the other, and taken all of their stuff!


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## Ralif Redhammer (Nov 30, 2015)

The Castle Zagyg Screwjob, wasn't that when the referee said Bret "The Hitman" Hart tapped out in the match versus Warduke?



SpringHeeledJack said:


> Having watched this from the end of the Castle Zagyg screwjob to now only makes me wish certain people would just go away.


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## Bochi (Dec 1, 2015)

OK. So the answer is, look at the website? Which has nothing new on it.


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## S'mon (Dec 10, 2015)

JohnRTroy said:


> Luke and Ernie weren't not really involved in Gary's creative endeavors.  That's a fact.  Post-TSR they really didn't contribute a lot to Gary's creative endeavors. Luke played in Gary's DJ and LA campaigns, while Ernie stuck to board games.




Luke & Ernie Gygax wrote Lost City of Gaxmoor - http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/classic/rev_6613.phtml - I remember giving my 
account of GMing it on ENW, and Gary Gygax told me it made him consider playing 3e 
D&D!  They were definitely involved with Troll Lord Games and the RPG industry. 
Gary Gygax was a co-writer on Gaxmoor with them, he provided details on the magic statues.


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## Maxperson (Dec 10, 2015)

dakotahorn said:


> Sorry man. I just don't agree with you.
> 
> Since you continue to say that this is not our business, I will rebuttal with our concern is not your business.
> 
> I very much look forward to Gail's responses in regards to the memorial.




The fans can never own something that they don't actually own.  What you are doing is trying to say that possession is 9/10 of the law, when in reality it's just theft.  You can own a D&D book. You can own your private additions to the game.  You can own your enjoyment of what the legacy owners give you.  You can't ever own the D&D legacy, though.  It's not yours.  It has never been yours.  It will never be yours.


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## Cody C. Lewis (Dec 10, 2015)

Maxperson said:


> The fans can never own something that they don't actually own.  What you are doing is trying to say that possession is 9/10 of the law, when in reality it's just theft.  You can own a D&D book. You can own your private additions to the game.  You can own your enjoyment of what the legacy owners give you.  You can't ever own the D&D legacy, though.  It's not yours.  It has never been yours.  It will never be yours.




Ok.


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## JohnRTroy (Dec 11, 2015)

S'mon said:


> Luke & Ernie Gygax wrote Lost City of Gaxmoor - http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/classic/rev_6613.phtml - I remember giving my
> account of GMing it on ENW, and Gary Gygax told me it made him consider playing 3e
> D&D!  They were definitely involved with Troll Lord Games and the RPG industry.
> Gary Gygax was a co-writer on Gaxmoor with them, he provided details on the magic statues.




I had mentioned that.  I enjoyed Lost City of Gaxmoor, Gary was very proud of that, and I think all the Gygax sons have talent.  I am honestly looking forward to seeing Ernie's tomb, which I backed as a Kickstarter.  But Lost City of Gaxmoor was the brothers creative endeavor, not Gary's.  

The point of my statement was solely based on people saying things like "Luke and Ernie are more deserving of the Trademark than Gail" or other variants.  I simply pointed out two important things...there has not been a lot of output directly from either of them on their own as Game Designers (Gaxmoor and the Gamma World module are the two that come to mind), so the fame to surname Gygax is Gary--when you hear the name by itself, do you think of Gaxmoor and Sagard the Barbarian first, or Tomb of Horrors and the DMG?  And secondly that if you want to argue participation in Gary's creative work from a business perspective, they didn't do things like co-write projects with him and his company.  The biggest credits in a lot of Gary's work was mostly Luke being a campaign/playtest participant in the adventures he wrote.

Don't confuse those points with any judgement on their talent.  I think Luke does a great job leading GaryCon, and I think Ernie's going to be very successful in his creative endeavors based on the positive response to his Kickstarter.   I simply think when it comes to holding a Trademark on the solo "Gygax" in gaming related fields, it should go to who Gary willed his IP/Estate to.


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## S'mon (Dec 11, 2015)

JohnRTroy said:


> I had mentioned that.  I enjoyed Lost City of Gaxmoor, Gary was very proud of that, and I think all the Gygax sons have talent.  I am honestly looking forward to seeing Ernie's tomb, which I backed as a Kickstarter.  But Lost City of Gaxmoor was the brothers creative endeavor, not Gary's.
> 
> The point of my statement was solely based on people saying things like "Luke and Ernie are more deserving of the Trademark than Gail" or other variants.  I simply pointed out two important things...there has not been a lot of output directly from either of them on their own as Game Designers (Gaxmoor and the Gamma World module are the two that come to mind), so the fame to surname Gygax is Gary--when you hear the name by itself, do you think of Gaxmoor and Sagard the Barbarian first, or Tomb of Horrors and the DMG?  And secondly that if you want to argue participation in Gary's creative work from a business perspective, they didn't do things like co-write projects with him and his company.  The biggest credits in a lot of Gary's work was mostly Luke being a campaign/playtest participant in the adventures he wrote.
> 
> Don't confuse those points with any judgement on their talent.  I think Luke does a great job leading GaryCon, and I think Ernie's going to be very successful in his creative endeavors based on the positive response to his Kickstarter.   I simply think when it comes to holding a Trademark on the solo "Gygax" in gaming related fields, it should go to who Gary willed his IP/Estate to.




As far as Trademark law goes, Luke & Ernie have rights to market themselves under their own name (in the UK it's section 11 (2) (a) of the 1994 Trade Marks Act) independent of any rights possessed by Gail Gygax. The way things are going I suspect her rights in the registered mark are going to be liable to revocation for non-use, but we'll see.


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