# OOC: House Millithor in COSQ part 4



## Endur (Apr 12, 2004)

Part 4 of the Out of Character Thread of 
House Millithor in City of the Spider Queen


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## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 12, 2004)

checking in....


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## Xael (Apr 12, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Matron Ki'Willis assembles Zieggrek, Tierak and the Bebiliths, Dariel, Torellan, and three of Torellen's vampiric warrior minions...



Quertus? He'd probably take part too.



> Let's see. Monkey Grip. Ranger two-weapon fighting feats. Lilarcor and Crom Faeyr, one per hand. hmmm.



Bastard.  



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Perhaps a fight in the chasm would be preferrable wether or not the heroes are flying. This is how I envision it...



Nice plan, and we can always retreat back to the noble level to defend it. 

Hmm, Invisible, flying, and generally buffed up Quertus outside of their Darkvision (or something) range...  



			
				Seonaid said:
			
		

> I like the battle plan. I like it even more since I won't be there. Either the House comes out victorious or there's a new Matron. Narcelia wins.



I wouldn't be so sure. If Kripp casts that _Sending_, you'll be in Szith Morcane in no time.


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## Pyrex (Apr 12, 2004)

On that note... Endur, is there currently a time differential between the two groups of PC's?


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## Endur (Apr 12, 2004)

Yes and No.

Edwin's conversation with the Matron and Zieggrek is current with the PCs at the Lake of Shadows.

The Revolt on the Commoner level happens two days before the conversation with Edwin.



			
				Pyrex said:
			
		

> On that note... Endur, is there currently a time differential between the two groups of PC's?


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## Pyrex (Apr 12, 2004)

Ah, ok.  I thought the revolt was happening more-or-less simultaneously with the conversation with Edwin.  (all of which I thought may have been occuring a couple days before Narcelia's reappearance)


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## Endur (Apr 12, 2004)

The main plot is focused on Edwin's conversation with the Matron and the Lake of Shadows.

The commoner revolt is a subplot arising out of the Matron's mass vampire conversions.  And it happens two days before.


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## Seonaid (Apr 13, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> I wouldn't be so sure. If Kripp casts that _Sending_, you'll be in Szith Morcane in no time.



D'oh! Must . . . keep . . . player . . . knowledge . . . and . . . character . . . knowledge . . . separate . . . 

Edit: Heh, maybe now's my chance to bump off my sweet sister and mother at the same time, assert my authority over all the lesser beings (you males and the non-drow) and take over the world! Good thing for you all that Narcelia's still quite off-kilter.


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## Xael (Apr 13, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Quertus casts a spell that creates a ray of green. The Ray of Green evaporates a small portion of the vast black pool of tar.



Stupid jelly.


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## Xael (Apr 13, 2004)

Stupid double-post.


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## Xael (Apr 13, 2004)

The game has gotten... ...interesting lately, don't you think?  Flying pools of tar, mutated goblinoids, my Robe of The Archmage disappearing... 

Endur, you need some help, dude.  

Ps. Icho rules.


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## Serpenteye (Apr 13, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> ooc: Does Quertus have permanent Arcane Sight?  If so, he knows that the Forbiddance is no longer up.




I've operated under the assumption that very little time has passed since the conversation with Edwin began. But it seems the attack is already underway and we don't have our forces in position. So, I guess we're officially ed. 
The Matron did order her forces to "prepare for an attack" but hasn't actually spelled out her plan yet. The heroes will be inside the Noble level long before we are done with whatever weird stuff is happening in the throne room and can react to them. All because I misunderstood the DMs intentions, when I should have known to expect the worst. 

So, what now? Fighting is pointless when our trap has been bypassed before we even got the chance to prepare the battlefield. I guess all we can do now is flee or die.


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## Xael (Apr 13, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> So, what now? Fighting is pointless when our trap has been bypassed before we even got the chance to prepare the battlefield. I guess all we can do now is flee or die.



Kill them! Kill them all I say! They're no match for us! *Insane laughter*

Seriously, this does hamper our fight a bit, but we can still toss up something nasty. Maybe we could lead them to the inverted tower. Let them have fun with Solom. If he dies, too bad, he's weakened them. If he kills them, good for him.

Or we could just run. Quertus can't teleport us all unless he uses the scroll he bought. Oh well...

But we need to hunt Edwin down later, that's for sure. I want that robe.  He probably had _Contingency _or something, though I can't explain the Gargoyle.


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## Serpenteye (Apr 13, 2004)

Quertus would have immediately noticed (thanks to his permanent arcane Sight) when the Forbiddance disappeared. He could not have missed that. Therefore I will have to assume that it was dispelled the moment before the Gargoyle appeared. That is too much of a coincidence.
That leads me to the conclusion that the Heroes did not dispell the Forbiddance, but that whoever is the Gargoyle's master did. The conclusion should be obvious (if the universe operates logically); The Gargoyle's master is our enemy (and a damned smart one to have manageed to time his attack so perfectly) and we have nothing to gain by buying his expensive lies.


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## Xael (Apr 13, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> (if the universe operates logically)



I wouldn't count on that, we're talking about Endur here after all.  But I agree that the Gargoyle appearing is just a bit too damn interesting to be just coincidence. 

But we have a s**tload of goblinoids, giants and spellcaster drow to take care of first.


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## Endur (Apr 13, 2004)

Well, the inspiration for the flying pools of tar and the mutated goblinoids came from the Book of Vile Darkness, but, honestly, the pool of tar and the goblins and the person who mutated both are all in the original COSQ module.  If you bypass the commoners and let sleeping dogs lie, you don't really have to worry too much about the Mutant Master.

With regards to the Robe of the Archmage disappearing, blame the TSR novel "Song of the Saurials" (Elminister did it).  A variant teleport spell where you trade places with someone else.  The spell is in one of my FR sources and its lower than 9th level.  

With regards to the Forbiddance disappearing, you definitely have an enemy that removed it.  It is probable that the enemy removed the forbiddance simultaneously with your attack, although its possible Quertus wasn't paying attention and it was removed some time prior.  While Edwin could have removed the forbiddance, you didn't see him try to do it and you don't even know if he knew about it.


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## Endur (Apr 13, 2004)

Edwin, Zieggrek, and Tierak heard the adventurers entering the crypts.  i.e. the adventurers were one hundred feet or so behind the party of drow.  

The adventurers did spend some time poking around and splattering the few remaining undead in the crypts, but the crypts are mostly a one way trek to Szith Morcane.  The adventurers are hasted and nothing they encounter can last more than one round, so they moved pretty quickly through the Dodrien Crypts.  



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> I've operated under the assumption that very little time has passed since the conversation with Edwin began. But it seems the attack is already underway and we don't have our forces in position. So, I guess we're officially ed.


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## Xael (Apr 13, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Well, the inspiration for the flying pools of tar and the mutated goblinoids came from the Book of Vile Darkness, but, honestly, the pool of tar and the goblins and the person who mutated both are all in the original COSQ module. If you bypass the commoners and let sleeping dogs lie, you don't really have to worry too much about the Mutant Master.



Really? I own the module but I haven't read it very throughly (for obvious reasons). But you're still a nutcase.  



> With regards to the Robe of the Archmage disappearing, blame the TSR novel "Song of the Saurials" (Elminister did it). A variant teleport spell where you trade places with someone else. The spell is in one of my FR sources and its lower than 9th level.



Yes, I happen to know the spell, and in fact thought of it at first (really!) but then remembered the forbiddance. It's a damn cool spell, and can be used to cause some nice confusion.

...But what happened to Edwin?  Will we ever know...


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## Serpenteye (Apr 13, 2004)

Ok, ok, so the gargoyle traded places with Edwin (because Edwin certainly didn't cast any spell, and "Elminster's Escape" is likely too high level to be put in a contingency.) Why would he have traded places with that particular creature anyway (and coincidentally at a time when it was carrying a message to us)? Obviously we're dealing with an archmage messenger-gargoyle. 
 What's the status of our armed forces? (in the Axebane time-frame)Where are they and how many? 
If I had known that you ran all the plots simultaneously I would have posted my reply to Edwin sooner, it was never my intention to have Ki'Willis stand around and wait without communicating any of my plans to her subordinates. If I would have known about that ruling (and it seemed more likely that the opposite to that ruling was in effect) I would have acted differently. I would have ordered the "living missile plan" into action.
 (Details in an earlier post) Vampires above (all of them since we don't have many), Bebiliths below, and our main forces arrayed safely behind our party in the Noble Level.

That's all I need. What's your ruling?


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## Endur (Apr 13, 2004)

FYI: You are certain that Edwin's tattoo initiated the transfer.  The way the spell works, is that Edwin can trade places with any arcane caster willing to travel here.  It just so happens that there is an arcane gargoyle-type creature willing to visit the drow and sell them information.  

With regards to waiting around, I'm not assuming that the Matron waited very long.  Its just that the party of drow only had a few minutes lead on the hasted heroes.  While Edwin was talking to you, the heroes were already setting the web on fire.  You thought you had time; perfectly normal assumption, just based on facts that weren't true.

With regards to the armed forces in the axe-bane time frame, you have the full garrison I mentioned previously.  Minus the two vampires that were destroyed by the black pudding and never recovered.


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## Endur (Apr 13, 2004)

Vampires Are Us:

Day 3: Torellan converts 2 volunteers (if they are both high enough level to become vampires) and 2 "volunteers" (Dominated Thugs). Conversions occur without incident. 

Day 4: Warrior Volunteer and two Thugs rise from the grave. Torellan orders the warrior volunteer and the two thugs to drink the blood of the other thug and five more warriors. The six are conscripted without incident.

Day 5: Two Warriors rise from the grave. Suspicians over the missing patrol are running rampant in the garrison. Torellan and his five risen minions successfully dominate the remainder of the garrison. One of the thugs is forced into gaseous form when somebody in the Commoner level dumps a pot of green slime over his body. General Revolt in the Commoner level. Two Vampiric Warriors destroyed.  

Day 7: Commoner Volunteer, Third Thug, 3 Warriors rise from the grave. Drain the blood of ten more warriors.  Edwin arrives, followed closely by a gargoyle and a pack of heroes.  

Current Status of the Garrison
Three Thug Vampires
Commoner Vampire Spawn
Four Warrior Vampires

Ten Warriors transforming into undead (d4 days)

Two warriors slain; eleven other garrison members are dominated


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## Serpenteye (Apr 13, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> FYI: You are certain that Edwin's tattoo initiated the transfer.  The way the spell works, is that Edwin can trade places with any arcane caster willing to travel here.  It just so happens that there is an arcane gargoyle-type creature willing to visit the drow and sell them information.
> 
> With regards to waiting around, I'm not assuming that the Matron waited very long.  Its just that the party of drow only had a few minutes lead on the hasted heroes.  While Edwin was talking to you, the heroes were already setting the web on fire.  You thought you had time; perfectly normal assumption, just based on facts that weren't true.
> 
> With regards to the armed forces in the axe-bane time frame, you have the full garrison I mentioned previously.  Minus the two vampires that were destroyed by the black pudding and never recovered.




---
Are the forces in the Noble Level, or are they all asleep in their beds in the garrison? I sounded a general alert, but maybe the message never reached them. Who knows what kind of supernatural horror could have eaten all my messengers?


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## Serpenteye (Apr 13, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Vampires Are Us:
> 
> Current Status of the Garrison
> Three Thug Vampires
> ...




The conversions of the garrison would have continued under day 5, 6 and 7. (As would the conversion of any Cult-leaders we managed to apprehend) We had 45 members of the garrison before the conversions, those who are not vampires or undergoing conversion are dominated.

-- 
On the topic of vampires, I was surprised that the Black Pudding could permanently kill the two vampires and successfully digest their gaseous forms. What kind of attacks can affect a vampire in gaseous form?


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## Endur (Apr 13, 2004)

All the current members of the garrison (and vampires) are on the noble level.


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## Endur (Apr 13, 2004)

I was presuming 1 vampire does two conversions, except for Torellan who did 4.  If you wish to change the ratio, please feel free.


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## Serpenteye (Apr 13, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> I was presuming 1 vampire does two conversions, except for Torellan who did 4.  If you wish to change the ratio, please feel free.



No, no. The ratio is perfectly fine.


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## Endur (Apr 14, 2004)

*EVIL NPCs*

A couple quick comments on evil NPCs.

Most of them are incredibly arrogant and tend to offend people, and are rude and greedy and suffer many other bad habits.  errr, they are EVIL.

Lying, treacherous scum that hate you.  You get the picture.

However, just because they are evil, does not mean they are not on your side.

HARRY POTTER MOVIE SPOILERS UP AHEAD


Spoiler



Imagine Professor Snape from the Harry Potter movies.  Harry hates Professor Snape (and vice versa).  But, Professor Snape is actually on Harry's side.  Just so, these lying traitorous scum may actually be telling you the truth because you are on their side.


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## Endur (Apr 14, 2004)

FYI: The Matron shocked me when she let my gargoyle live.  

I was certain my gargoyle was dead.  Even my gargoyle thought he was going to die.


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## Serpenteye (Apr 14, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> FYI: The Matron shocked me when she let my gargoyle live.
> 
> I was certain my gargoyle was dead.  Even my gargoyle thought he was going to die.




I was pretty sure that wasting another second in the throne room would have been fatal to us. Killing the gargoyle was a luxury we could not afford, and we had nothing to gain by doing so.


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## Goddess FallenAngel (Apr 15, 2004)

err, umm... sorry I've gone the last few days... see, I tend to check this thread at work, and last time I checked it was shortly after Endur had posted the new threads. Well, I thought I had taken the time to subscribe to them, thus I would get an email when something happens. Well, I wasn't subscribed. *sheepish grin*

Fortunately, Endur (and the rest of you, I imagine) can pretty much guess what Zieggrek does. Just point me in the nearest direction of something to kill and I'm happy.


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## Endur (Apr 15, 2004)

Mistakes happen.  Part of life.  For what's it worth, the commoner revolt was really just a background thread, not part of the main plot.



			
				Goddess FallenAngel said:
			
		

> err, umm... sorry I've gone the last few days... see, I tend to check this thread at work, and last time I checked it was shortly after Endur had posted the new threads. Well, I thought I had taken the time to subscribe to them, thus I would get an email when something happens. Well, I wasn't subscribed. *sheepish grin*
> 
> Fortunately, Endur (and the rest of you, I imagine) can pretty much guess what Zieggrek does. Just point me in the nearest direction of something to kill and I'm happy.


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## Serpenteye (Apr 15, 2004)

I don't really feel like letting the best items from Baldur's Gate II escape our grasp, though I have a feeling they will be back (with Drizzt and Elminster in tow)
What do you think, players, should we wait and prepare for their next attack or should we strike back at them? They are probably either in Daggerdale or the Bhaalspawn demiplane, and since the Bhaalspawn is a paladin he might not be comfortable in the Abyss. Quertus has been in Daggerdale before, he could easily teleport us up there, inside or near the Inn. If we get the drop on them when they are unarmoured and unbuffed we might be able to take them out with relative ease. if they are not in Daggerdale we can always torch the town as payback for their assault on us.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 15, 2004)

just found the new IC thread...  I'll read when I have the chance today and get something posted, if need be, by tonight.


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## Xael (Apr 15, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> I don't really feel like letting the best items from Baldur's Gate II escape our grasp, though I have a feeling they will be back (with Drizzt and Elminster in tow)



Elmunchkin is too lazy to stop his tea party, and Drizzt & Co. have never really been far from the Sword Coast (which, frankly, exists about half-faerün (or Toril, I always forget which is which) towards west). But yeah, I agree that their items are... nice.



> What do you think, players, should we wait and prepare for their next attack or should we strike back at them? They are probably either in Daggerdale or the Bhaalspawn demiplane, and since the Bhaalspawn is a paladin he might not be comfortable in the Abyss. Quertus has been in Daggerdale before, he could easily teleport us up there, inside or near the Inn. If we get the drop on them when they are unarmoured and unbuffed we might be able to take them out with relative ease. if they are not in Daggerdale we can always torch the town as payback for their assault on us.



Quertus is rather reluctant to start war with Daggerdale. He finds the whole situation to have been completely avoidable, if Dorina would have had enought sense not to disturb the Dalesfolk. Besides, I doubt we should teleport anywhere without Scrying first because Torellan doesn't like sunlight and Quertus can only teleport himself and four others (so no bebiliths and Vampires with us). There's of course a slight chance that the scrying works (I bet they have something to block it, and we should scry Minsc). 

We should ask Solom to Scry on them (=Minsc), and then decide.


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## Seonaid (Apr 15, 2004)

OOC, the best thing would be to attack them on the surface, while they're "resting." (We all know heroes never sleep. ) Probably the best time would be about an hour before dawn--at least, that seems the most unlikely time for a band of drow to attack a band of surfacers. Early in the evening would be bad because they might still be up carousing and/or healing. I suppose that mid-night would work decently though as well. And completely OOC, I would love to get Narcelia back on the surface.

IC, Narcelia isn't strong enough in any sense of the word to go to the surface, in combat or not. If you brought our little group back in time, Narcelia will probably do everything in her power to not personally go.

Edit: Also OOC, I agree with Xael that it would be a bad idea to declare war on Daggerdale. If we can't destroy it outright in one shot, I would say let's not do it, unless we can place the blame on someone else. Say . . . Kiaransalee.  Actually, if we _could_ place the blame on someone else, a rival city or another evil sect (preferably one who wishes us harm), that would work to our advantage. IC, the surface scum should die for their attacks on us, but patience is a virtue and it doesn't have to be today or tomorrow. We'll out-live most of them anyway (hopefully).


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## Xael (Apr 15, 2004)

Seonaid said:
			
		

> (We all know heroes never sleep. )



I bet hey have _Mordenkainen's Magnificient Mansion_ and/or _Rings of Sustenance_. Which brings a rather horrific idea to my mind. What if they just cast MMM and are resting like withing a hundred feet of us? We can't scry on them, can't find them, and can't prepare for them. Crap. God I love that spell.




> IC, Narcelia isn't strong enough in any sense of the word to go to the surface, in combat or not. If you brought our little group back in time, Narcelia will probably do everything in her power to not personally go.



If Quertus would teleport to fetch Narcelia and others, and teleport back with them, he would be out of teleportation spells for the day. And I doubt that the heroes would be back before he could prepare more.


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## Xael (Apr 15, 2004)

Seonaid said:
			
		

> Edit: Also OOC, I agree with Xael that it would be a bad idea to declare war on Daggerdale. If we can't destroy it outright in one shot, I would say let's not do it, unless we can place the blame on someone else. Say . . . Kiaransalee.  Actually, if we _could_ place the blame on someone else, a rival city or another evil sect (preferably one who wishes us harm), that would work to our advantage. IC, the surface scum should die for their attacks on us, but patience is a virtue and it doesn't have to be today or tomorrow. We'll out-live most of them anyway (hopefully).



Correction: I'm not afraid of Daggerdale itself (it's a small place). I'm afraid of the other Dales getting worried and the fact that a destroyed town would become a hego-magnet. 

The idea of putting the blame on someone else might work, but I doubt it. Human mind has a knack of blaming the one's that have caused trouble before. Which is us. The false evidence would have to be very good.


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## Seonaid (Apr 15, 2004)

Unfortunately, I don't know the Dalelands very well . . . Are they mostly run and populated by good-aligned people? If so, strife and dissention wouldn't work very well and you're right that they'd all cry for heroes and band together. But if there's any sort of miscommunication or shadiness, that could be exploited. Or how about Skullport? Never mind, they wouldn't go for an all-out attack; it would be too damaging to their trade. Too bad we don't have our massive undead army (or any army, for that matter). Then we could take out more than one town at a time. Even if we took out two, it would take them too long to recover, and we could in the meantime take out another one or move on, or both. But then again, heroes = named NPC's with good loot. Hm . . . maybe this isn't such a bad idea after all. 

Sorry for the ramblings. IC, I'm all for waiting them out and getting them later. OOC, I'm all for it, _as long as we have a truly viable plan_ that doesn't get us (or half of us) killed.


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## Xael (Apr 15, 2004)

Seonaid said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, I don't know the Dalelands very well . . . Are they mostly run and populated by good-aligned people?



Yes. And Shadowdale is practically populated by high/epic-level heroes, including Elminster.



> Or how about Skullport?



It's under Waterdeep, at the sword coast. Half-world away.



> But then again, heroes = named NPC's with good loot. Hm . . . maybe this isn't such a bad idea after all.



Now this I agree with.  



> Sorry for the ramblings. IC, I'm all for waiting them out and getting them later. OOC, I'm all for it, _as long as we have a truly viable plan_ that doesn't get us (or half of us) killed.



Quertus should maybe buy _Limited Wish_ and a 5000gp gem or two. He could cast _Raise Dead_ then...


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## Serpenteye (Apr 15, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> Quertus should maybe buy _Limited Wish_ and a 5000gp gem or two. He could cast _Raise Dead_ then...




Now, that's a good idea.

I guess we should fetch Narceila & co and prepare our defenses. The vampire-missile plan might work better now when the chasm is clear of webs.

Endur, how high does the chasm extend?


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## Pyrex (Apr 15, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> I bet hey have _Mordenkainen's Magnificient Mansion_ and/or _Rings of Sustenance_. Which brings a rather horrific idea to my mind. What if they just cast MMM and are resting like withing a hundred feet of us? We can't scry on them, can't find them, and can't prepare for them. Crap. God I love that spell.




Have the apprentices scout the area with _Detect Magic_.  If they're hiding in a MMM they'll find it.  Then you can all gather around while Quertus or Solom _Dispels_ it.  Then you whack them.


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## Xael (Apr 15, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> Have the apprentices scout the area with _Detect Magic_. If they're hiding in a MMM they'll find it. Then you can all gather around while Quertus or Solom _Dispels_ it. Then you whack them.



I'm not sure if the door to the MMM can be found with _Detect Magic_. If it can be found, then Quertus can perform a search.



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Now, that's a good idea.



I'm glad you agree. Quertus just needs a sponsor... 



> I guess we should fetch Narceila & co and prepare our defenses.



Kripp should cast that _Sending_ soonish. I read from another thread that Uriel would not be posting for a couple of days though.



			
				Endur said:
			
		

> Non-wizards that enter the Inverted Tower are destroyed.



By what?



But it seems that the heroes have either used the MMM or protected themselves from scrying.


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## Endur (Apr 15, 2004)

Every time Quertus enters the Inverted Tower, he speaks a password.  He was told to keep the password a secret from anyone who isn't a resident of the tower.  Various arcane spells will go off if someone fails to speak the password and the tower guards (drow fighter/wizards) will attack the intruder if the intruder survived the spells.



			
				Xael said:
			
		

> [Inverted tower invaders destroyed] By what?


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## Pyrex (Apr 15, 2004)

SRD said:
			
		

> ...single entrance on the plane from which the spell was cast...portal is shut and made invisible behind you when you enter...




Even if it's hidden/shut/invisible, _Detect Magic_ should pick it up just fine.


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## Endur (Apr 15, 2004)

Quertus and others spend several hours searching, but they do not find anything out of the ordinary.



			
				Pyrex said:
			
		

> Even if it's hidden/shut/invisible, _Detect Magic_ should pick it up just fine.


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## Serpenteye (Apr 15, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> While this is going on, Torellen's vampiric minions communicate their opinion regarding the plan to dive down the chasm towards the river below.  Most of them consider it akin to jumping on a stake.  The minions are careful to not communicate their opinion in the presence of the Matron.




Clarification: The Matron in making her plan counted on that the vampiric Dire Bat's collision with the heroes would be enough to immediately turn the vampires gaseous. If some of them should somehow miss their targets they should either try to stop their fall (the chasm is quite deep below the entrance to the noble level and they should be able to brake well before hitting the water) or they would voluntarily change to gaseous form the round following the missed impact. In gaseous form they would lose all but a fraction of their weight but keep a significant part of their surface area, thus the energy of their fall would be immensely reduced and they would stop falling within seconds. Perhaps the Matron should mention this to the vamps so that they don't fly into the water by sheer mindless obedience.

Does anyone see a flaw in that bit of physics?

How high is the chasm, btw? (above and below the entrance to the noble level)


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## Xael (Apr 15, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Does anyone see a flaw in that bit of physics?



No, but I think that the Vampires just aren't fond of constantly killing themselves.


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## Endur (Apr 15, 2004)

The Chasm is 500 feet or so high.  The Noble level is about 100' above the water (and is the lowest of the levels).


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## Serpenteye (Apr 15, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> No, but I think that the Vampires just aren't fond of constantly killing themselves.




It's not really death when they can and will rise again. This plan is likely the best way the vampires can contribute to the battle for the noble level, they are unlikely to ever manage to hit any of the heroes and since our enemies know they are going to face vampires they will all be protected against Domination (perhaps with multiple castings of Circle o p a Evil). 
Since their "deaths" will only be permanent if the enemy reaches their coffins their best interest is to maximise their effectiveness, wether or not that would temporarily indispose them.


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## Serpenteye (Apr 15, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> The Chasm is 500 feet or so high.  The Noble level is about 100' above the water (and is the lowest of the levels).




You hold all the cards, you know all solutions. Do you agree with my assessment that the vampires could brake their fall way above the water-level if they turned gaseous after hitting or missing the enemy (presumably at an altitude around the noble level)?


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## Endur (Apr 15, 2004)

If they hit a target, it might be difficult to regain balance to fly after the hit; if they miss a target, they may be able to continue flying and avoid the river.  

If they hit the target, that might force them into gaseous form, in which case they probably won't fall into the river.

Even if they hit a target and aren't forced into gaseous form, they could still turn to gaseous form, presuming they get a standard action before they hit the water.  Depending on the height and how fast they are falling, they might get a standard action.  

Its just like parachuting, the trick is to pull the cord at the right moment.  Only in this case, you are hitting the ground first, then pulling the cord after you hit the ground before hitting a second ground.

But, even if they can physically accomplish all of this, it does not mean they want to do it.  Vampires generally do not want to be driven below zero hit points or risk falling into water or being exposed to sunlight.


----------



## Pyrex (Apr 15, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> It's not really death when they can and will rise again.




That doesn't mean it doesn't hurt.  I can't say as I would think much of making suicide attacks against superior foes every d4 days either.


----------



## Serpenteye (Apr 15, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> Serpenteye said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Me neither, good thing that their opinions don't matter.


----------



## Serpenteye (Apr 15, 2004)

How far can Dire Bats fly/fall in a round? Their base move is 40 x2 is 80, x4 for running is 320... and perhaps an extra x to account for the fact that they are diving...

Anyway, say that they can fly/fall 320 feet in a round, and start their fall 300 feet above the heroes they will each do 30d6 damage per impact, an average damage of 105 hp. Say we have 9 vampires in the strike force (the exact number will depend on when the attack comes) then we should be able to kill at least half of our enemies in one fell swoop and seriously wound the rest.


----------



## Xael (Apr 15, 2004)

Correction: It's not every d4 days. It's every hour.



			
				Endur said:
			
		

> The Matron does not know about Icho, the invisible and inaudible familiar that Quertus has acquired, but presuming that Quertus mentioned to the Matron that he has some abyssal contacts...



Quertus probably would have mentioned something like that. He doesn't really consider Icho as a secret, but why bother Matron and others with unneeded details...


----------



## Pyrex (Apr 15, 2004)

Flying creatures move double their speed when diving.  A 'Run' action has to be in a straight line, so in order to actually strike their target they'd probably double-move at double-speed so with a base move of 40' they could (effectively) Charge 160' down and slam into their target.

I'm still not certain that it's entirely reasonable to treat diving creatures as falling objects though.

(Now, if you wanted to have the DireBatVampires start dropping heavy rocks...)


----------



## Endur (Apr 15, 2004)

shhhh.  No need to give the Matron extra ideas.  With regards to the dive, I agree, however, the idea was that they wouldn't really be diving, as that implies control, instead they would cease flying and just go into free fall until they hit maximum velocity.



			
				Pyrex said:
			
		

> (Now, if you wanted to have the DireBatVampires start dropping heavy rocks...)


----------



## Serpenteye (Apr 15, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> Flying creatures move double their speed when diving.  A 'Run' action has to be in a straight line, so in order to actually strike their target they'd probably double-move at double-speed so with a base move of 40' they could (effectively) Charge 160' down and slam into their target.




Can't a straight line be vertical? (or nearly vertical since they might have to angle their descent slightly to hit on the mark)



			
				Pyrex said:
			
		

> I'm still not certain that it's entirely reasonable to treat diving creatures as falling objects though.




From a mechanical and logical standpoint I don't see why not, the only reason it might be questionable would be game-balance (and you know how much I care about that ). Let's face it, we cannot win this battle if we play it fair. Even if we manage to defeat the enemy it will cost us too much. We have to play dirty.



			
				Pyrex said:
			
		

> (Now, if you wanted to have the DireBatVampires start dropping heavy rocks...)




Which they would have to make an attack to hit with, against the formidable AC of the heroes. There is no defence against a Bull Rush, only an aoo.


----------



## Serpenteye (Apr 15, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> With regards to the dive, I agree, however, the idea was that they wouldn't really be diving, as that implies control, instead they would cease flying and just go into free fall until they hit maximum velocity.





No, no, that was never the idea. The idea was that they would descend at maximum velocity and use their wings to direct and speed the fall. Think of it as a running Bull-Rush downhill. 
Wether you call it flying or falling the energy of the impact and ergo the damage will be the same.


----------



## Pyrex (Apr 15, 2004)

The straight line can be vertical, but if they maintain some control (i.e. double-move instead of run) they're more likely to hit their target.

Also, per the rules, they can actually dive (160' as a double-move or 320' as a run) further than they can fall (150' in the first round).

Also, to Bull Rush, they have to charge which puts them back at 160' of movement.


----------



## Serpenteye (Apr 15, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> Also, to Bull Rush, they have to charge which puts them back at 160' of movement.




Right you are. You know the rules better than I do. 

Ok, so they charge 150 feet down (we need some margins in case the enemy's spread out and they must hit the first round or they will be killed). Since they weigh 200 pounds they will do 15d6 damage.

If they are each given 200 pound rocks to carry while they are diving they will be slower (heh!) but will do more damage dies per feet. They can dive 110 feet (120) for 22d6 damage.



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Down Speed: A flying creature can fly down at twice its normal flying speed.




x2 for 30d6 or 44d6 damage.


----------



## Endur (Apr 15, 2004)

Actually, the number of points of damage they do depends on when they turn to gaseous form.

If they are cowardly and turn to gaseous form right before they hit, then of course they do no damage.

If they are brave and are forced into gaseous form from damage, then they will do a maximum of the amount of damage necessary to force them into gaseous form.

i.e. a 25 hit point Dire Bat is only going to do 25 hit points of damage when it flies into a target.  now a 200 hit point Dire Bat could do lots of damage.


----------



## Pyrex (Apr 15, 2004)

Serp, I think you keep trying to double their movement for flying downward twice.

Dire Bat has a Fly speed of 40'.  Double to 80' for a charge, double to 160' for flying downward.



			
				Endur said:
			
		

> ...200 hit point Dire Bat...




So, what you're saying is we need magically reinforced Dire Bats?

Hmm, _Endurance_ won't work, but how about potions of _False Life_?

Or I suppose we could always _Animal Growth_ them into Huge Dire Bats...


----------



## Serpenteye (Apr 15, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> If they are brave and are forced into gaseous form from damage, then they will do a maximum of the amount of damage necessary to force them into gaseous form.



!  !  !

So I guess they have to carry rocks while they dive, at least the rock won't turn gaseous.



			
				Pyrex said:
			
		

> Serp, I think you keep trying to double their movement for flying downward twice.
> Dire Bat has a Fly speed of 40'.  Double to 80' for a charge, double to 160' for flying downward.




Oh, I though the entry under Charge that said: 


> Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action.



meant that you moved faster than a normal walk while charging, ergo that it was not just a normal double-move. I counted 40 x2 for double move, x2 for charging and x2 for diving. I guess if it sounds too good to be true it probably is.


----------



## Pyrex (Apr 15, 2004)

Charge is a full-action.  You don't have enough actions to double-move (make two move actions) and then Charge (a full action).


----------



## Serpenteye (Apr 15, 2004)

I've just had another screwy idea...
How much time would it take for a working crew of all our vampires and the Bebiliths to rig the ceiling of the chasm to collapse, causing a Major cave-in? 

They would have to dig deep into the rock to weaken it's internal structure. The Bebiliths would weave their webs as the work progressed to glue the almost loose pieces of rock together with the solid rock and when the time came to drop the ceiling we would simply have to set fire to the webs and the whole thing would come crashing down.

Does that sound feasable, or is it a bad idea?


----------



## Endur (Apr 16, 2004)

It sounds feasible and it would definitely work.  You just want to make sure you are not the one standing underneath it when someone fires the webbing.


----------



## Seonaid (Apr 16, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Me neither, good thing that their opinions don't matter.



My thoughts exactly . . .


> Does that sound feasable, or is it a bad idea?



That sounds like a wonderful idea, especially since Endur says so. Then again, the mere fact that he *is* endorsing the plan makes me a little leery.

I think that if I were a vampire in our tiny army, I would not want to commit suicide either, but I would do it anyway for fear of the Matron. In any event, we need at least two full plans, in case something happens and things go badly (which they almost certainly will).


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 16, 2004)

Wow and 101 posts and very little affected the "away party."

Sorry for the huge delay in replying.


----------



## Endur (Apr 16, 2004)

Well, my primary reason for endorsing it is that it is very simple from a game mechanics point of view.  So long as the webbing is strong enough to hold the cracking ceiling, its simply a case of waiting until somebody destroys the webbing and then declaring everyone under the webbing as having serious problems.  From a game mechanics problem, its much simpler than the diving dire bats scenario.  

Its also much more logical and appropriate to a fantasy game.  Diving Dire Bats hitting targets and transforming into gaseous form is not a mainstay of fantasy literature.

Of course, there is always the issue of the disgruntled goblin slave who slips free of his domination and lights a match while the Matron is standing underneath the webbing. 



			
				Seonaid said:
			
		

> That sounds like a wonderful idea, especially since Endur says so. Then again, the mere fact that he *is* endorsing the plan makes me a little leery.


----------



## Serpenteye (Apr 16, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Icho whispers to Quertus after hearing the Matron's response.
> 
> "Master, you must be careful.  The Matron betrays you.  She knows that the Abyssal Lords will never accept such a flimsy excuse.  She knows that your soul will be forfeit if the promised souls are not delivered.




This is why I prefer devils over demons. A devil would accept her adherence to the letter of the agreement, plain and simple, but demons start growling about the implied spirit of the deal. Like they are paragons of virtue themselves, 




			
				Endur said:
			
		

> Well, my primary reason for endorsing it is that it is very simple from a game mechanics point of view.  So long as the webbing is strong enough to hold the cracking ceiling, its simply a case of waiting until somebody destroys the webbing and then declaring everyone under the webbing as having serious problems.  From a game mechanics problem, its much simpler than the diving dire bats scenario.




The only problem is that the ceiling is too high up and the enemy would have a round to react and get away before they were hit. Maybe it's better to rig the walls halfway down the chasm to collapse inwards...



			
				Endur said:
			
		

> Its also much more logical and appropriate to a fantasy game.  Diving Dire Bats hitting targets and transforming into gaseous form is not a mainstay of fantasy literature.




No, but it could become one , the business needs to reinvent itself. 
Alas, we do not know exactly how quickly vampires turn to gas after they have been killed. So it might be entirely accurate that the transformation would be so instantaneous that the full force of the impact wouldn't hit the target. Clever ruling, that.



			
				Endur said:
			
		

> Of course, there is always the issue of the disgruntled goblin slave who slips free of his domination and lights a match while the Matron is standing underneath the webbing.




There is that, but the webs would be a bit hard to reach for someone who can't fly or spider-climb.


----------



## Endur (Apr 17, 2004)

Just out of curiousity, did anybody besides Uriel figure out what the skull-topped wand is that That Which Swims in Darkness asked Carcelon to destroy?


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Apr 17, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Just out of curiousity, did anybody besides Uriel figure out what the skull-topped wand is that That Which Swims in Darkness asked Carcelon to destroy?




Sounds like the Wand of Orcus to me.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 17, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> There is that, but the webs would be a bit hard to reach for someone who can't fly or spider-climb.



But he is cunning enough to make it happen if he wants to...  In fact he is so cunning that the match would be unneeded.


----------



## Seonaid (Apr 17, 2004)

Nope, haven't figured it out yet, but then again, I don't know very much about D&D.

Sorry for the delay in posting IC. This "no email notification" thing is really screwing me up.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 17, 2004)

Seonaid said:
			
		

> Sorry for the delay in posting IC. This "no email notification" thing is really screwing me up.



Indeed, in fact I saw you found my thread...   I still think that PbP people need that feature more than the rest of the board does.


----------



## Xael (Apr 17, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Just out of curiousity, did anybody besides Uriel figure out what the skull-topped wand is that That Which Swims in Darkness asked Carcelon to destroy?



No idea about what it is. Something we could get lots of shineys from?  



> (ooc: does Quertus have Knowledge Engineering or Trap-building)



Quertus has 5 ranks in Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering), with a total modifier of +12.


----------



## Dalamar (Apr 17, 2004)

Well, my first idea for the staff would be Staff of Ancient Penumbra, or whatever that illithid artifact is called. But I seriously hope we aren't talking about that one.


----------



## Endur (Apr 17, 2004)

If Quertus wanted to, he has the skills to be involved in designing the trap.  He also realizes, though, that the work is time-consuming, and if you are near the trap, quite dangerous.



			
				Xael said:
			
		

> Quertus has 5 ranks in Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering), with a total modifier of +12.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 17, 2004)

With Endur's permission I posted a new version of Kilcif's character sheet in the RG if anyone is curious.


----------



## Xael (Apr 17, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> If Quertus wanted to, he has the skills to be involved in designing the trap. He also realizes, though, that the work is time-consuming, and if you are near the trap, quite dangerous.



How time-consuming? Is it going to prohibit Quertus' spell-learning process for a week or something? And about everything seems to be dangerous around here.

Oh yeah, and I would like to utilise _Planar Binding_. Would Earth (or Air) Elemental help in the trap-construction? Though it might take a while to convince an Elemental to follow Quertus' every order for almost two weeks.


----------



## Endur (Apr 17, 2004)

Depends on how involved you want to be.  How many hours do you want to spend on trap construction instead of spell learning?

Everything is dangerous around here.  But you fully expect at least some of those working on this trap are going to be killed in "accidents". 

An Earth Elemental would help quite a bit in the trap construction.  What are you offering as pay?


----------



## Pyrex (Apr 17, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Sounds like the Wand of Orcus to me.




That was my guess as soon as I heard the description.


----------



## Xael (Apr 17, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Depends on how involved you want to be. How many hours do you want to spend on trap construction instead of spell learning?



Well, unless it takes a long time to make the trap (more than three days), I think that Quertus can just work about full-time with the trap.



> An Earth Elemental would help quite a bit in the trap construction. What are you offering as pay?



Frankly, I have absolutely no idea what an Elemental could possibly want. So basically nothing, unless it demands something.


----------



## Xael (Apr 17, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> That was my guess as soon as I heard the description.



What excactly is the wand/staff? Isn't Orcus like a demon prince (or a god) or something?


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Apr 17, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> What excactly is the wand/staff? Isn't Orcus like a demon prince (or a god) or something?




Yes, he is, and the Wand of Orcus is basically a magic stick of Kill Anything.


----------



## Seonaid (Apr 17, 2004)

::greedy:: We need to get our hands on _that_.


----------



## Serpenteye (Apr 17, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> But he is cunning enough to make it happen if he wants to...  In fact he is so cunning that the match would be unneeded.




You know, the Matron has not forgotten that the Domination effect on Kilcif was removed. I'm reluctant to subject Kilcif to it again, but if you give her any reason (the slightest suspicion) Ki'Willis will have to take apropriate measures. perhaps I shall have you turned into a vampire under Leonon's control?


----------



## Serpenteye (Apr 17, 2004)

Seonaid said:
			
		

> ::greedy:: We need to get our hands on _that_.




Yes. We have really no reason ooc to believe that the silence of Lolth has anything to do with that ancient artifact, it's just a bit too convenient for Demogorgon to try to trick us into weakening his nr1 enemy (Orcus). Ic we can draw trhe same conclusion after a bit of research.


----------



## Endur (Apr 17, 2004)

From an ooc theory perspective (neither confirming or denying)...
the destruction of an artifact would unleash tremendous power and there may be valid reasons for thinking that the destruction of an artifact could impact the Silence of Lolth.  It would certainly be a more powerful sacrifice than anything else that has been attempted by the clergy of Lolth.

It is also possible that Lolth is dead, not silent.  If one needed a weapon to slay a deity, there is no more powerful weapon for killing than the Wand of Orcus.

This all presumes that the Wand is really in Maerimydra, and its not some other wand.



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Yes. We have really no reason ooc to believe that the silence of Lolth has anything to do with that ancient artifact, it's just a bit too convenient for Demogorgon to try to trick us into weakening his nr1 enemy (Orcus). Ic we can draw trhe same conclusion after a bit of research.


----------



## Endur (Apr 18, 2004)

I'm almost afraid to ask what people think of the latest visitor to the commoner level.


----------



## Xael (Apr 18, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> The creature of stone and earth demands diamonds for its service.



What a surprise. Quertus is rather out of diamonds at the moment. I guess that it's going to be difficult to convince the Elemental to work for free. And I bet that using _Charm Monster_ would anger _someone_ (besides, Quertus doesn't even have the spell). 

Did it say any amount or value?



> I'm almost afraid to ask what people think of the latest visitor to the commoner level.



We own four souls to someone. He's the tax collector? :\ 



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Yes, he is, and the Wand of Orcus is basically a magic stick of Kill Anything.



So we could get lots of shineys from it. Cool.


----------



## Serpenteye (Apr 18, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> I'm almost afraid to ask what people think of the latest visitor to the commoner level.




The Baatezu? A little answer to my earlier comment about demons and devils, I'm guessing. We have probably offended some diabolic lord at some time, but since all our true enemies are demonic the new visitor might actually be good news. (as if this is ever that simple or easy   )


----------



## Dalamar (Apr 18, 2004)

I bet it's the demonic lawyer from the Something Positive webcomic


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Apr 18, 2004)

Dalamar said:
			
		

> I bet it's the demonic lawyer from the Something Positive webcomic




He was a tax collector, as I recall, unless there's one in the earlier strips I'm forgetting.  The only two monsters I recall full stats for are the tax collector and the Redneck Treant.


----------



## Dalamar (Apr 18, 2004)

Ah, yes, my mind (once again) betrayed me. A tax collector it was, my bad 

But it _was_ a lawyer anyway


----------



## Endur (Apr 18, 2004)

The Earth Elemental did not specify amount or value in its request, but it did specify diamonds plural.

Quertus believes that the Earth Elemental or something similar will make this trap far more efficient and quicker to construct (a difference of weeks vs. hours).


----------



## Serpenteye (Apr 18, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> The Earth Elemental did not specify amount or value in its request, but it did specify diamonds plural.
> 
> Quertus believes that the Earth Elemental or something similar will make this trap far more efficient and quicker to construct (a difference of weeks vs. hours).




If the total cost is less than 1000 gps I will give Quertus the money needed to purchase the diamonds.


----------



## Endur (Apr 18, 2004)

Quertus could probably find cheap diamonds if he went on a shopping trip.



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> If the total cost is less than 1000 gps I will give Quertus the money needed to purchase the diamonds.


----------



## Serpenteye (Apr 18, 2004)

What kind of devils are in a Cohort, and in a Legion (+ #)?

What's the price of one Cohort, and (what the hell) one Legion?

--
I think we'd have more use of a smaller and more elite group of (or a single) devils. Which kinds are available? And which kinds do you, fellow players, think would be useful?

Do we have any reson to suspect that the Bebiliths might elope or react violently if we recruited a group of Baatezu, or is their bond with Tierak too strong?
--
Kurgoth is not necessarily a problem, though. Perhaps we're better off working with him than hiring a relatively weak force of Devils? I think so, but please sate my curiosity anyway. We might want to hire some devils later, after this little matter has been taken care of.
--

Another thought. Icho apparently has a nice little hot-line to the Abyss, and a lot of contacts down there. Would it be possible to arrange trough him a meeting with a 9th (or higher) level cleric of Selvetarn? We have been without spells for too long.


----------



## Goddess FallenAngel (Apr 18, 2004)

*Goddess, I hate not having email notification.*

I'm a little worried about the Baatizu lawyer. Anyone else?....


----------



## Goddess FallenAngel (Apr 18, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> I think we'd have more use of a smaller and more elite group of (or a single) devils. Which kinds are available? And which kinds do you, fellow players, think would be useful?
> 
> Do we have any reson to suspect that the Bebiliths might elope or react violently if we recruited a group of Baatezu, or is their bond with Tierak too strong?



I would imagine that just about all the types are available. *just a guess*
However, I think that the ones that would be the most useful might also be out of our reach, pricewise - however, it would be helpful against Kurgoth's army to have a group of Devil's attack. It might give us the break we need to get in their and deal with the undead-worshippers. 

I think the Bebiliths might be the sticking-point, though...


----------



## Endur (Apr 18, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> What kind of devils are in a Cohort, and in a Legion (+ #)?
> 
> What's the price of one Cohort, and (what the hell) one Legion?




When you ask these questions, the long-winded answers you receive are quite legalistic and hard to comprehend.  As near as you can figure, the answers were:
a) Cohorts tend to be specialized with most devils of one type and officers of more powerful types.  If you ask for a cohort, you can pretty much pick the general type of devilish troops you want.  Lemure are the most common troops.
b) Legions have everything.
c) Price of a cohort depends on the devils in the Cohort and has to be negotiated with the commander
d) Price of a legion depends on negotiations.



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Do we have any reson to suspect that the Bebiliths might elope or react violently if we recruited a group of Baatezu, or is their bond with Tierak too strong?




Violence is always possible.  They have not telegraphed strong feelings yet.



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Another thought. Icho apparently has a nice little hot-line to the Abyss, and a lot of contacts down there. Would it be possible to arrange trough him a meeting with a 9th (or higher) level cleric of Selvetarn? We have been without spells for too long.




You could certainly try to arrange a meeting with a cleric of Sevetarn.  The Church of Selvetarn does not accept female clerics, so you should also track down a gender change enchantment if you wish to go that route.  Also, the adherents of the Church of Selvetarn tend to be religious fanatics.  The odds are that if you mentioned your interest in conversion, they would accuse you of heresy and sacriledge and other similar things and attempt to kill you.


----------



## Serpenteye (Apr 18, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> When you ask these questions, the long-winded answers you receive are quite legalistic and hard to comprehend.  As near as you can figure, the answers were:
> a) Cohorts tend to be specialized with most devils of one type and officers of more powerful types.  If you ask for a cohort, you can pretty much pick the general type of devilish troops you want.  Lemure are the most common troops.
> b) Legions have everything.
> c) Price of a cohort depends on the devils in the Cohort and has to be negotiated with the commander
> d) Price of a legion depends on negotiations.




Does "Legalistic and hard to comprehend" mean that the Matron might be selling her soul if she agrees to the deal? What am I saying? Why even ask? It probably means that she'd sell her descendants too  . 



			
				Endur said:
			
		

> You could certainly try to arrange a meeting with a cleric of Sevetarn.  The Church of Selvetarn does not accept female clerics, so you should also track down a gender change enchantment if you wish to go that route.  Also, the adherents of the Church of Selvetarn tend to be religious fanatics.  The odds are that if you mentioned your interest in conversion, they would accuse you of heresy and sacriledge and other similar things and attempt to kill you.




Ah. 

Are there any diabolic or yugoloth (the ultimate mercenaries) Gods who might agree to grant spells to a cleric for a limited time with no reverance or permanent commitment required? (She does not ask the Malebrance that, I'm just wondering if she believes that might be a possibility.)



			
				Endur said:
			
		

> "The minion will eventually lose their soul, of course, but not before you have accomplished your goals in Maerimydra."




Any takers?   Come on, take one for the team


----------



## Endur (Apr 18, 2004)

Asmodeus would be the obvious power to approach.  Mephistophles or Baalzebul would be an alternative if you are frightened of Asmodeus.



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Are there any diabolic or yugoloth (the ultimate mercenaries) Gods who might agree to grant spells to a cleric for a limited time with no reverance or permanent commitment required? (She does not ask the Malebrance that, I'm just wondering if she believes that might be a possibility.)


----------



## Serpenteye (Apr 18, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Asmodeus would be the obvious power to approach.  Mephistophles or Baalzebul would be an alternative if you are frightened of Asmodeus.




What would other deities think of that kind of business arrangement? Would that make it more difficult to join another clergy later (or get back into Lolth's good graces)?


----------



## Serpenteye (Apr 18, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> The Devil responds,
> "I was referring to the situation in Maerimydra.  My contacts have led me to believe that it will be resolved one way or the other in a matter of days.




Hm. How much time do we have until the Grave-rending?


----------



## Endur (Apr 19, 2004)

I'll have to double-check the calendar, but you should have at least four or five weeks before the grave-rending.



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Hm. How much time do we have until the Grave-rending?


----------



## Endur (Apr 19, 2004)

Deities are jealous.  Yes, it would be more difficult.



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> What would other deities think of that kind of business arrangement? Would that make it more difficult to join another clergy later (or get back into Lolth's good graces)?


----------



## Pyrex (Apr 19, 2004)

Wow, y'all have been busy over the weekend, I've got some catching up to to.

IC postage will be coming tomorrow morning...


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 19, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> IC postage will be coming tomorrow morning...




Cool, you do have one from Kilcif.


----------



## Serpenteye (Apr 19, 2004)

And btw: The creation of vampires continues at a maximum rate every passing day. Kiernan and Laernan are each put to work building their own hierarchies.


----------



## Goddess FallenAngel (Apr 20, 2004)

Endur - I can't get the Baalspawn pdf to compress to any smaller than 20 megs. *shrug* Which is why I haven't emailed it to you yet. Sorry. (It took me a while to find it, then longer to try and get it to compress, sorry that it took so long*


----------



## Endur (Apr 20, 2004)

Can you post a URL for it?  my email won't take a 20 meg attachment.  If not, that's ok.  You might not have to worry about the Heroes of the SwordCoast, what with having a Balor running around in Szith Morcane.



			
				Goddess FallenAngel said:
			
		

> Endur - I can't get the Baalspawn pdf to compress to any smaller than 20 megs. *shrug* Which is why I haven't emailed it to you yet. Sorry. (It took me a while to find it, then longer to try and get it to compress, sorry that it took so long*


----------



## Pyrex (Apr 20, 2004)

Yeah, that could be a problem.

Quite the "messenger" Kurgoth has decided to send.


----------



## Serpenteye (Apr 20, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> Yeah, that could be a problem.
> 
> Quite the "messenger" Kurgoth has decided to send.




The Forbiddance will be disjoined. Kurgoth will storm the castle. Most of Irae's and Kurgoths armies will be slaughtered. And we will move in to wipe out the survivors. 1,2,3,4. Check Mate.

I would have preferred to ally with him, but I guess he'll have to do it the hard way.


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## Endur (Apr 20, 2004)

Sadly, the 3.5 Forbiddance is useless at keeping people out.  It only blocks teleport and other travel spells.  The spell doesn't even have to be disjoined for Kurgoth's army to assault the castle.


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## Serpenteye (Apr 20, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Sadly, the 3.5 Forbiddance is useless at keeping people out.  It only blocks teleport and other travel spells.  The spell doesn't even have to be disjoined for Kurgoth's army to assault the castle.




A password-protection might help, assuming the caster of the Forbiddance was not Chaotic Evil. Sadly, that is unlikely. 
Nevertheless, bringing down the protection against teleport could shift the balance dramatically, depending on how many teleport-capable demons Kurgoth has in his army. If he was informed of the exact time when the Forbiddance would be removed he could launch a teleport-attack against the gatehouse of the castle and get the gate open before Irae could mobilize enough forces to counter-attack. Kurgoth's army would pour in trough the gate, and our enemies would massacre each-others.
And when that plan fails, we will still have two scrolls of Disjunction. (For when we have to fight Elminster)


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## Endur (Apr 20, 2004)

Granted, Removing the forbiddance and certain other defensive spells would have a potentially decisive impact.


----------



## Goddess FallenAngel (Apr 20, 2004)

Umm... guys?... Are we going to do something about the Balor, or just let it run loose?....




			
				Endur said:
			
		

> Can you post a URL for it? my email won't take a 20 meg attachment. If not, that's ok. You might not have to worry about the Heroes of the SwordCoast, what with having a Balor running around in Szith Morcane.



Part 1: http://www.angelfire.com/wizard2/baalspawn/Bhaalspawn1.pdf

Part 2: http://www.angelfire.com/retro/goddess_fa/Bhaalspawn2.pdf

It's only 4 pages, and should be smaller than 5 megs a page, but... *shrug* my computer/scanner hates me.


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## Endur (Apr 20, 2004)

I downloaded the PDFs.  Thanks!!!


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## Pyrex (Apr 20, 2004)

Apparently the Matron is all for letting it run loose unless it attacks the Noble level.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Apr 20, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> Apparently the Matron is all for letting it run loose unless it attacks the Noble level.



Anyone have a better idea?  If the Axebane and his buddies were here, we could get one to kill the other for us, but there's nothing anywhere in the compound that can handle that thing.


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## Xael (Apr 20, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> (For when we have to fight Elminster)



Quertus doesn't have any intention of fighting Elminster. If Matron would order him to do that, he would think that as the same as asking Quertus to kill himself. 

I doubt that we need three scrolls. And as usual, Quertus doesn't have any money, so Matron would have to pay for them.

And I would suggest that unless the Balor leaves soon, we leave.


----------



## Serpenteye (Apr 20, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Anyone have a better idea?  If the Axebane and his buddies were here, we could get one to kill the other for us, but there's nothing anywhere in the compound that can handle that thing.




It has only killed commoners thus far, they have no value besides to feed our vampires. But without food we're going to have to move soon.

How much blood (if any) does a vampire need per day? There's nothing in the SRD about that.



			
				Xael said:
			
		

> Quertus doesn't have any intention of fighting Elminster. If Matron would order him to do that, he would think that as the same as asking Quertus to kill himself.




It was a joke, but we may at some time be in a situation facing a powerful spellcaster when it is impossible to escape. In such a situation Disjunction is the ultimate equalizer.



			
				Xael said:
			
		

> I doubt that we need three scrolls. And as usual, Quertus doesn't have any money, so Matron would have to pay for them.




As usual . There is a chance that Quertus (or another of our casters) will have a mishap when attempting to use the scroll. It's my experience that if something can go wrong it will go wrong. So we're going to need scrolls in backup.

There's some weapon enhancement in some d20 book that allows the weapon to bypass all DR, but gives no other bonus. We could also use a few such weapons for our fighters. Anyone who is interested in that can go with Quertus on his trip, the Matron will supply the money.


----------



## Xael (Apr 20, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> It was a joke, but we may at some time be in a situation facing a powerful spellcaster when it is impossible to escape. In such a situation Disjunction is the ultimate equalizer.



Maybe. Let's just hope we never come to face such an opponent. Though Irae is waiting...  



> As usual .



Yeah. We really need to raid some place and throughly loot it (hint: Laral!). I'm just glad that Quertus invested in that _Boccob's Blessed Book_. God, If he had to pay for scribing costs in addition to the cost of scrolls...  

No, wait. I might have a chance to kill Solom. Hehee...


----------



## Serpenteye (Apr 20, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> Yeah. We really need to raid some place and throughly loot it (hint: Laral!). I'm just glad that Quertus invested in that _Boccob's Blessed Book_. God, If he had to pay for scribing costs in addition to the cost of scrolls...
> 
> No, wait. I might have a chance to kill Solom. Hehee...




Hmm, Laral again... That might actually be a good idea. He's already going to attack us, so we might as well kill him first before he's managed to scrape together the forces he will need to assault us. Yes. After the Balor has left we'll gather our forces (Vampires and coffins in the Portable Holes) and Teleport back to Laral's to finish him off. We have too many enemies, and we need to reduce the number before we can embroil ourselves in Maerimydra.

Solom is another matter. He's useless to us now, and a traitor to boot, but he's a lot higher level than Quertus and he's just about to leave. We cannot gather our forces quickly enough to help you if you decide to attack. I think you're better off not trying to fight him, there's no telling who Eilos might side with; there's a fair chance Solom holds his Phylactery in safekeeping.

The Heroes of the Sword Coast should have returned by now, but we can't sit around and wait for them and we can't attack their base of operations. As much as it irks me we'll have to ignore them for now.


----------



## Xael (Apr 20, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> I think you're better off not trying to fight him, there's no telling who Eilos might side with; there's a fair chance Solom holds his Phylactery in safekeeping.



That's why I'm going to ask who Eilos is going to side with.


----------



## Endur (Apr 20, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> That's why I'm going to ask who Eilos is going to side with.




Eilos tells Quertus that he thinks the vacation is the most prudent plan.


----------



## Seonaid (Apr 20, 2004)

Sorry for not posting. I had a long, rough day at work yesterday. I should be able to post tonight.


----------



## Serpenteye (Apr 20, 2004)

Seonaid said:
			
		

> Sorry for not posting. I had a long, rough day at work yesterday. I should be able to post tonight.




Sorry about the Domination, it's only temporary, (and only because the Cephalometer only gives the answer to one question with it's Mind Probe function)


----------



## Serpenteye (Apr 20, 2004)

Endur,

I think you're a great DM, your characterizations and your plotting skills are excellent, but this game is becoming too difficult. Our enemies are omniscient and flawless, they know exactly when and where to hit us and exactly what to anticipate. They have access to all of your knowledge, and they can make no mistakes. Even coincidence works in their favour. The Forbiddance on the Noble Level being dispelled the moment we attacked Edwin is the most glaring example. 
Many of the recent encounters have been dead-ends. Everything involving Solom (though I guess that's in character for him), the negotiations with the Malebranche, the Bhaalspawn raid, have all taken up plenty of time and effort without producing anything, which was apparently your intention from the beginning. It's all very reasonable for the NPCs to act like that (why should they be suicidal or reasonable?), but it gives zero sense of accomplishment and it doesn't move the game forwards an inch.
It seems that everything I'm trying to do is an exersize in futility, and I don't think most of it is my fault. Was there really anything I could have done differently that would not have resulted in a failure? I doubt it. Is there any chance at all that we're going to be able to win this game without being able to read your mind?
I am flawed, I am ignorant, and I can not keep up with your perfect NPCs. I cannot compete with the DM, no player can do that especially not in an on-line game. I'm not angry, I'm not even upset anymore. I am tired, and I'm becoming indifferent.

Did you even roll the dies for your recent stunt? What's the range-incremeter of a burning Goblin? I doubt even a Balor could throw it 400 feet straight up and Telekinesis has a range-limitation. 

I am sorry for being such a nuisance. I don't know you or anything about your life, but I get a feeling that your DM-ing style has changed the last months. The reason is really none of my business, but I hope everything's ok with you.


----------



## Seonaid (Apr 20, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> I don't know you or anything about your life, but I get a feeling that your DM-ing style has changed the last months. The reason is really none of my business, but I hope everything's ok with you.



I feel the same way. I don't necessarily agree with the rest of Serpenteye's post (I'll have to think about it), but I definitely agree with what I quoted. Perhaps this is what I was trying to get at, before, when I posted about the difference in pace of the campaign.

It could also just be me, some change in my life that's making me see the campaign differently.

I really hope that you don't quit, because I am still having fun, but I think I understand what Serpenteye is feeling. I also know that you were having thoughts of quitting, earlier, and I think I understand that as well. I have less say in that decision than I might like. 

--

Regarding the Domination, I'll have to check my book at home to see the complete wording of the spell. I'll be home in a while (5 or 6 hours, hopefully), and I'll post a thoughtful response to the Domination then. Does the Matron ask each question distinctly, separately, and in that order? Thanks, and sorry again for the delay. I just happen to have a few minutes to myself right now to post this.


----------



## Xael (Apr 20, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> I think you're a great DM, your characterizations and your plotting skills are excellent, but this game is becoming too difficult. Our enemies are omniscient and flawless, they know exactly when and where to hit us and exactly what to anticipate. They have access to all of your knowledge, and they can make no mistakes. Even coincidence works in their favour. The Forbiddance on the Noble Level being dispelled the moment we attacked Edwin is the most glaring example.



I somewhat agree, but I can see certain hints in the stuff that's happening. Most clear (IMHO) is this: Get your arses hauled to Maerimyda. And while I agree that everybody is kicking the s**t out of us, I (strangely) kinda like the challenge. But I'm the one playing the Wizard with the ability to teleport all over the world, so I'm pretty biased. 



> I don't know you or anything about your life, but I get a feeling that your DM-ing style has changed the last months.



He's been a rat-bastard from the beginning. The only time we managed to actually do something was when we robbed the 400 000 at Laral's. And even that didn't go as planned.


----------



## Endur (Apr 20, 2004)

Your comments are correct.  There are killer NPCs running around right at the moment.  Some of these high level spellcasting NPCs have an idea about what might happen before it happens through divinations.  

The Forbiddance was dispelled because Solom was scrying the audience chamber and saw the Matron give the drow hand signal to attack Edwin.  Solom started scrying once you sent a messenger to retrieve his book.  _Solom's Secure Sanctum_ (tm) protects from scrying by anybody but Solom.  Solom also started the fire and had a hand in supporting the animation of hordes of undead in the Dodrien crypts.  Solom also holds Eilos' phylactery as you guessed.  Solom did not want Quertus to get his hands on Edwin's gear.  Quertus didn't notice that the dispel was before Edwin's tattoo vanished because Quertus was focusing on Edwin's auras and not on area spells when the dispel happened.  Solom did not have anything to do with the Devil or the Demon or even the illusion of Dorina.  Edwin's contingency teleport was set to fire as soon as he took any damage.

The Bhaal-spawn was a distraction to make you think.  An encounter like that is appropriate in the Dale-lands.  They did the obvious thing, recovered Randal Morn's body and sealed the tunnel to the Underdark.  They declined  to try and kill every underdark monster (which is impossible).  If you unsealed the tunnel or teleported out, then they would have come down after you.

The Devil was a potentially game-ending hostile encounter worth lots of exp.  If you accepted either deal, its game over as PC independence vanishes.  So you did the right thing to avoid his deal.  Part of the point was to demonstrate a contrast between a Lawful Evil enemy and a Chaotic Evil enemy. 

Turning down the gargoyle (actually a Forgotten Realms variant gargoyle known as a Kir-Lanan) was a minor mistake, but not a big deal.  He had information he could sell.  He works, along with a large number of other Kir-Lanan, for a Shadow Dragon I mentioned earlier in some of the posts.  The Shadow Dragon is one of your hidden enemies who is also an enemy of Kurgoth and Irae.

One of the issues the party is beginning to run into is that your overall party power level is roughly level 20 (due to large numbers of PCs, LA, and Vampiric minions), but you are not that powerful with regards to magic.  Quertus and Kripp are the two most powerful spellcasters, and both are members of Level Adjustment races.  

I did consider how high a Balor could throw a Goblin.  I figured fifty feet would be reasonable.  The ceiling is roughly 200 feet above the commoner level, so throwing wouldn't work.  The Balor used Telekinesis (violent thrust), which would work to move goblins (up to 750 lbs) the necessary distance.

With regards to the sense of accomplishment, I agree that it is beginning to be harder to find in the last few encounters.  On the other hand, you just completed a major quest (capturing Szith Morcane) that took a year.  Plus characters have gone up a number of levels since we started playing, and everyone is about to go up another level as soon as the Balor situation is resolved one way or another.

I had not planned to send the Balor to Szith Morcane.  But, when you requested negotiations with a minion of Kurgoth, I asked myself, who would Kurgoth send?  The CE answer, if you want something done right, do it yourself or send someone you trust implicitly.  So here are your negotiations.

Of the "four chapters" of this City of the Spider Queen campaign, chapter 1 is Szith Morcane.  Chapter 2 is getting to Maerimydra.  Chapter 3 is getting inside the castle.  Chapter 4 is the castle and Irae.  So we're almost finished with chapter 2, possibly even chapter 3.  

I am posting somewhat faster right now than I have in the past.  

Campaigns don't last forever.  If it stops being fun, then we should stop playing.

I did offer to let someone else take over as GM if they are interested.


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## Pyrex (Apr 20, 2004)

Yea, I'm noticing a definate 'get out of Szith Morcane' vibe (not that it's necessarily a bad thing, left to our own devices we [the pc's] don't move too fast)

Part of the reason we've been hesitant to leave Szith Morcane (correct me if I'm wrong here guys) is our lack of a clear path to victory.

We know (in game and out) that we need to tackle Irae and stop (or possibly take over) the graverending.

The problem is that we're feeling a bit overwhelmed (two balors, an artifact and and army of lesser demons between us and Irae, as well as Laral and possibly a couple of adventuring parties at our backs) and don't know how to proceed with any reasonable chance of success.

If all we really need to do is get moving towards Maerimydra and we'll find the missing pieces along the way, great.  But the PC's (or at least the players) need to know that.  We've seen the stick, but given that all the PC's are CE, we need a glimpse of the carrot.


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## Endur (Apr 20, 2004)

The Balor in Szith Morcane is the MM standard Balor (int 24, wis 24).  A deadly opponent, but within your capabilities to defeat.

Kurgoth is very different and probably not within your current capabilties to defeat.


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## Xael (Apr 20, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Campaigns don't last forever. If it stops being fun, then we should stop playing.
> 
> I did offer to let someone else take over as GM if they are interested.



Not this again, please. Two facts:

1. I'm having fun.

2. If you quit, I'm not having fun anymore.

That's my two cents.


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## Xael (Apr 20, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> The Balor in Szith Morcane is the MM standard Balor (int 24, wis 24). A deadly opponent, but within your capabilities to defeat.



Frankly, I'm not that worried about if we can defeat it. 
I could theoretically even counter the _Implosion_ ability of the Balor (which I fear the most). I'm worried about how many of us are alive after it dies. Mainly, because most (well, some) of the party are elves with constitution near 10, and thus with less hit points than 100 even when in full health.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 20, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Sorry about the Domination, it's only temporary, (and only because the Cephalometer only gives the answer to one question with it's Mind Probe function)



Why does that sound so familiar…?   (Join me Seonaid! )

As for the campaign itself...  Kilcif has seen a lot of stuff that he has no desire to deal with or simply isn't designed to deal with, but I myself am having a lot of fun.


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## Endur (Apr 20, 2004)

Well, yes, the Balor is a destructive force and might well kill somebody.



			
				Xael said:
			
		

> Frankly, I'm not that worried about if we can defeat it.
> I could theoretically even counter the _Implosion_ ability of the Balor (which I fear the most). I'm worried about how many of us are alive after it dies. Mainly, because most (well, some) of the party are elves with constitution near 10, and thus with less hit points than 100 even when in full health.


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## Pyrex (Apr 20, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> Not this again, please. Two facts:
> 
> 1. I'm having fun.
> 
> ...




Damn straight.  Still having fun here too.

I originally jumped in because of the challenge presented by playing a cleric who'd lost contact with their diety.  You've come through in spades providing a challenging, compelling (and fun) game.

Inevitably, though, the high level of challenge does result in some frustration now and then.


----------



## Pyrex (Apr 20, 2004)

So, on to more productive discussion, how do we deal with the Balor?


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## Serpenteye (Apr 20, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> The problem is that we're feeling a bit overwhelmed (two balors, an artifact and and army of lesser demons between us and Irae, as well as Laral and possibly a couple of adventuring parties at our backs) and don't know how to proceed with any reasonable chance of success.




That has been my problem all along. Everything I have done since I took over from Yasarrra as the Matron has been to attempt to increase our power, because our high LA and lack of spellcasting ability has made us a lot weaker than our ecl would indicate. Five of our characters are clerics, but only one of them can cast spells. 
I've only just now considered the downside to all my efforts. As our power increases so does the power of our opponents, if we remain weak our enemies will be less powerful than if we grow stronger, and that will be exactly proportional to our own growth. The module is probably balanced that way, and it's not in any way Endur's fault, but it makes everything I have done so far completely irrelevant. If power is absolutely relative the best way to hurt the enemy is to weaken ourselves.

In a weird masochictic kind of way I still really enjoy this game, wether or not it's hopeless. It is still my favorite DnD game ever. It's strangely fun to be incompetent and powerless, even though it's incredibly frustrating at the same time. And I don't want it to stop. 

--

About the Goblin-toss.



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Violent Thrust: Alternatively, the spell energy can be spent in a single round. You can hurl one object or creature per caster level (maximum 15) that are within range and all within 10 feet of each other toward any target within 10 feet per level of all the objects.




The Maximum range for a Balor is 200 feet, and I don't think a point in the air is a legitimate target for the spell so they can't be tossed higher with multiple castings. Whatever, I guess he could just have teleported up, set fire to the web and teleported away.


I don't understand Kurgoth's reason for attacking us when he obvioulsy needs help to defeat Irae, but I'm not Chaotic Evil (more NE or N).


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## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 20, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> So, on to more productive discussion, how do we deal with the Balor?




I don't see how it could be used to deal with the Balor, but Kilcif did pick up an arrow...  (He thinks it’s for someone else though.)

I don't have the Balor's stats in front of me, but Kilcif is probably outclassed in melee and I can't see him doing that anyways.  His bow up in till now hasn't been used so I'm unsure how much of a chance he has to damage the Balor with it.  (He will also be handicapped for a week if we fail to kill it.)

So I can suggest 6 javelins of lighting, but my suggestion comes with a big but as I'm not sure if these will even hurt a Balor.

Oh yeah, I would like to think Endur for the day log…  My since of time has been resorted.

Pyrex, I believe you would agree with me that Carcelon and Kilcif's conversation is happening shortly after we arrived back?


----------



## Endur (Apr 20, 2004)

*Level UP.*

Level up.  Everyone gets an extra level before facing the Balor in battle.


----------



## Pyrex (Apr 20, 2004)

We're pretty much all outclassed in melee, I can't see going toe-to-toe with him being the way to go.

The javelins will most likely bounce of it's SR, but the bow may be useful as support if it comes down to a drag-out fight.

My recommendation would be to have Quertus use _Dismissal_ or _Banishment_ and just send him packing, but I don't know as he has either spell prepared.

Carcelon will likely use her scroll of _Planar Ally_ to call for aid.  Endur, does Carcelon know what would be likely to answer her call as the Demonweb Pits appear to have been sealed off?

Yep, as I understand the schedule, our conversation should be occuring the day before the "messenger" shows up.

Edit:  Do we have (or have access to in whatever passes for Szith Morcane's armory) Cold Iron weapons?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 20, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Level up.  Everyone gets an extra level before facing the Balor in battle.



Sweet! 

I still plan on holding you to the comments of leveling up after we deal with the Balor...  

I'll make the changes to Kilcif tonight when I get home.


----------



## Xael (Apr 20, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Well, yes, the Balor is a destructive force and might well kill somebody.



I'm mainly referring to the Balor's "Death Throes" ability.



> Level up. Everyone gets an extra level before facing the Balor in battle.



Even Quertus? And is the Elemental still around, or did it just help with the trap?



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> So I can suggest 6 javelins of lighting, but my suggestion comes with a big but as I'm not sure if these will even hurt a Balor.



The Balor is immune to lightning damage.



			
				Pyrex said:
			
		

> My recommendation would be to have Quertus use _Dismissal_ or _Banishment_ and just send him packing, but I don't know as he has either spell prepared.



Quertus doesn't have either prepared, and he doesn't even know them. He'll learn _Banishment_ at level-up, but I doubt that he has the time to prepare it. Not to mention that it has really, really, small chance of actually working.



I would suggest running for now.


----------



## Pyrex (Apr 20, 2004)

Leveling Up is hard, let's go shopping!


----------



## Pyrex (Apr 20, 2004)

I just had another thought for fighting the Balor.

Cast _Silence_ on a vampire.
Have him go gaseous.
Have him hang around the Balor.
->Balor is now denied use of his SP abilities.

Problem:  Gaseous vampire only moves at 20'.  Balor moves at 90', can easily move & cast.

Solution: ??


----------



## Dalamar (Apr 20, 2004)

Problem number two: silence doesn't foil SLAs

Solution: There isn't one

Good news: Torellan and Matron are immune to one of the Balor's most effective SLAs, _implosion_. Thanks to the saving throw line only reading "Fortitude negates", without the needed (object) to affect undead (or constructs for that matter).


----------



## Pyrex (Apr 20, 2004)

*goes & checks*
Oops, you're right.  I thought they had the same components.


----------



## Dalamar (Apr 21, 2004)

Changes on Torellan after level up:

6 hit points, Dex increased by 1 (no change in modifier), BAB increased by 1 (gained extra attack, don't own a third +1 Returning Adamantine Dagger), 2,5 ranks in Use Magic Device, Precise Shot and Ranged Disarm (Dagger) feats (Ranged Disarm is from Complete Warrior and I bet you can quess what it does)


----------



## Uriel (Apr 21, 2004)

*Be Vewy,Vewy Quiet...We'aw Hunting Bahlaws...*

Does Kripp Level up as well? I'm not sure how you are doing things regarding the Fiendish template being added. I guess my question is similar to Xael's (since he is a Vampire, right?)...


----------



## Serpenteye (Apr 21, 2004)

Fortunately Outsiders can be level drained,but our vampires can only hit the Balor on a natural 20.
First of all we need to disarm the Balor of its Vorpal Sword, to make it less of a threat in melee and so that we get some loot out of the encounter. 10 Vampires should Aid Another on Ziegrek's disarm attempt, a +20 to the check will give us a pretty good chance. 
Then, if Z has Power Attack, perhaps the surviving Vampires should Aid him in attacking the Balor. Even though the first 15 points will be subtracted from the damage he should be able to inflict some damage on a full Power attack, and his hit chances shouldn't be too abysmal.

On the other hand, the Balor has 290 hp. It can, and will use Fire Storm to clear away all of our vampires and wound the rest of us. Then it will follow up with Power Word Stun on the wounded Ziegrek, Quicken Telekinesis to throw the Matron off the cliff and laugh as Quertus and Kripp tries to penetrate its SR and beat its saves. It will kill every single one of us. Anyone who manages to escape will be hunted down like an animal. Well, that's what I would do if I were the Balor, and Endur's twize the tactician I am.


----------



## Endur (Apr 21, 2004)

Everyone levels up.

level 15: Ki'Willis
level 14: Narcelia, Carcelon, Tierak, Dariel, Quertus,.
level 12: Kilcif, Torellan
level 11: Kripp
level 10: Zieggrek

(templates, level adjustment, are on top of levels)


----------



## Goddess FallenAngel (Apr 21, 2004)

_Transmutation_ is the weapon ability Serp was looking for. It is in the Miniatures Handbook. It takes 1 round to adjust to _any _given DR except epic (basically, you hit it once, by next round it bypasses that particular DR until you hit another DR). It is a +4 weapon bonus. Kinda expensive.

I do have Power Attack. I also am a 10th level barbarian (after I level up) with the Rage abilities to match, and a 35 Str _(before I rage)._ (Character sheet is here: http://www.angelfire.com/retro/goddess_fa/roleplaying/Zieggrek.html; the Marton would most likely be able to access Matron Morcane's memories for my abilities).

I think, with backup, I would be a serious challenge to the Balor. (As long as I can get help from that backup! )

The vorpal is only on a nat 20 followed by a successful roll to confirm the crit. If he has the standard whip (the balor write-up has), then to negate two attacks I can get rid of the whip first (not many hit points, I can probably Sunder it) then work on the sword. The Dominate Monster spell-like ability they get may be a problem, however. I _am_ will-bait, and it would be bad to have Zieggrek turned on the party. Trust me.


----------



## Goddess FallenAngel (Apr 21, 2004)

I don't think it is as bad as you guys think - it _is_ bad, but I think we can take him. We may lose a person or two, but... *shrug*

For the record, if Zieggrek dies, I will be sad that I lost a fun character - but I would make a new one, or assume one already running around, and go on.    And Zieggrek, for his part, is practically salvating at the chance to fight a Balor. 

Endur, I wish to reiterate my comments from last time the concept of you leaving came up - I would miss the game, but if you feel you need to, I will understand. It's better to quit while you're ahead rather than run a game you are not enjoying into the ground.  I think you are a great DM. I can understand some of the words that other said - the game has changed, even since I joined, but really, I was taking it more as a "get out of Sith Morcane". Some of the enemies/events didn't make sense until you explained them, but I understand better now.

As for moving on - I think that we are 'stalled' so to speak, because of lack of a tactic to take - the path to Maemyrdra (sp?) does seem rather hopeless without a large force.

So here's another idea: how about a small, scouting force? Sneak in, gain access to Irae's living quarters (where is she in the city, again?) and kill her. Sounds good to me. We're never going to be able to raise enough of a force to storm the place in time. So let's not try.

Ideas? Comments?


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## Endur (Apr 21, 2004)

If you really want to be pessimistic:
1) Carcelon could have been killed by a Stone Giant boulder.
2) Kripp could have been killed by the Claw for not bringing back Carcelon.
3) Narcelia could still be in a zoo.
4) Kilcif could have been food for the Swimmer in Darkness.
5) Laral could have used the cloak that the Matron sold in Skullport and some of her hairs as a focus to summon her body away from Szith Morcane.
6) Eilos could have killed his younger brother (just because he wanted to help Quertus become a Lich).
7) Zieggrek could have been killed by Tierak's Bebiliths
8) Starving vampires could drink the blood of Tierak.
9) Dariel could have been killed long ago and was replaced by a doppleganger.
10) Torellan could be very lonely.




			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> On the other hand, the Balor has 290 hp. It can, and will use Fire Storm to clear away all of our vampires and wound the rest of us. Then it will follow up with Power Word Stun on the wounded Ziegrek, Quicken Telekinesis to throw the Matron off the cliff and laugh as Quertus and Kripp tries to penetrate its SR and beat its saves. It will kill every single one of us. Anyone who manages to escape will be hunted down like an animal. Well, that's what I would do if I were the Balor, and Endur's twize the tactician I am.


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## Goddess FallenAngel (Apr 21, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> If you really want to be pessimistic:
> 10) Torellan could be very lonely.



Good Gods, NO! Anything but that!...


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## Pyrex (Apr 21, 2004)

Well, from Torellan's point of view, being trapped inside his coffin inside the Matron's Portable Hole for a few hundred years pretty much would be a fate worse than (un)death. 

Oh, and Think Positive(tm) Serp, we need to focus on how we can kill him, not how he can kill us.


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## Endur (Apr 21, 2004)

The Demonweb Pits aren't really sealed off, just that the Spider Queen isn't sending minions anymore.  So, you can still summon any creature that is not a direct servitor of the Spider Queen.  i.e. no Yochols, but you can summon a Bebilith, a Vrock, a Succubus, etc.  

Given that your party already has two Bebiliths, I would recommend summoning a third Bebilith.  

With regards to the armory, most of the armory that remains is up on the barracks level.  However, the vampire garrison has been relocated into the Shrine of Lolth (along with all of their brand new coffins).  You could probably find a cold iron weapon or two if you go rob the vampires.

The Earth Elemental that Quertus bound is still hanging around in the nearby vincinity.



			
				Pyrex said:
			
		

> Carcelon will likely use her scroll of _Planar Ally_ to call for aid.  Endur, does Carcelon know what would be likely to answer her call as the Demonweb Pits appear to have been sealed off?
> 
> Edit:  Do we have (or have access to in whatever passes for Szith Morcane's armory) Cold Iron weapons?


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## Xael (Apr 21, 2004)

Goddess FallenAngel said:
			
		

> I don't think it is as bad as you guys think - it _is_ bad, but I think we can take him. We may lose a person or two, but... *shrug*



I agree with you here, we've got lot's of "people" around. Bebiliths, Elemental, Vampires. And of course the party itself.



> For the record, if Zieggrek dies, I will be sad that I lost a fun character - but I would make a new one, or assume one already running around, and go on.  And Zieggrek, for his part, is practically salvating at the chance to fight a Balor.



If Zieggrek dies, and Quertus is alive, he'll raise you. He just picked up _Limited Wish_.



> So here's another idea: how about a small, scouting force? Sneak in, gain access to Irae's living quarters (where is she in the city, again?) and kill her. Sounds good to me. We're never going to be able to raise enough of a force to storm the place in time. So let's not try.



She's in a fortress with permanent _Forbiddance_, and the place is full of god-knows-what. If we could bring the _Forbiddance_ down however, we could use the good old, scry-buff-teleport tactics.



And Quertus has 50% chance to make it past the SR of the Balor. Fortunately I have spells with no saves. Too bad I haven't got time to prepare something to those empty slots.


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## Dalamar (Apr 21, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> 10) Torellan could be very lonely.



Technically speaking, Torellan _is_ very lonely, what with his physiology giving up on him.


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## Dalamar (Apr 21, 2004)

Oh, and almost forgot to ask: Does a vampire need to penetrate the balor's DR to deal Energy Drain?


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## Uriel (Apr 21, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> 2) Kripp could have been killed by the Claw for not bringing back Carcelon.





Firstly, I would not have returned, had I not had a Drow Priestess to present.
Secondly, I would have crushed the Claw.

He's not _that_ tough...


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## Uriel (Apr 21, 2004)

OK, well here is a bit of help from my end, more (and stronger) to follow)

I have the Wands of Bull's Strength and (more importantly), Bear's Endurance for weveryone, when we are sure that a confrontation is imminent.

(Barring the Undead) Another 2XHD in hit Points is nothing to sneeze at.

As well, I do have a _Bless Weapon_ Oil...if we have a melee monster that has a chance to get in there and strke, a Blessed Weapon is _Good_ thing.
(pun intended)


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## Serpenteye (Apr 21, 2004)

I'm sorry for being so negative, your explanations justify a lot of what I considered arbitrary rat-bastardness. I'm getting the hint, and we're going to Maerimydra (after going shopping).

Ok, Plan #1

1: We gather our forces in the Noble Level (completed)
2: The Elemental moves to the solid rock above the entrance and begins to prepare for a cave-in. The Bebiliths hide in the rock to each side of the entrance. Some of the Vampires go gaseous and wait in the chasm (the Balor can't damage them without wasting its Fire Storm for the day.) The rest of our forces array themselves in two ranks behind the doors to the level. Carcelon summons her Planar Ally. Buff spells are cast.

3:The Balor arrives. Unless it uses the information it tortured out of the commoners to teleport in behind us it will arrive at the entrance.
 The Bebiliths attack it from behind while Zieggrek and 10 vampires disarm it's Vorpal Sword.

4: The Balor probably uses its Fire Storm to clear away the attackers, the loss of its sword should have angered it enough for that, but not enough to warrant gating in another Balor (I hope). The 10 Vampires die.
Z and the Bebs continue their attack, joined by the second rank from the Noble Level and the Chasm. All of our forces are committed to the attack, the weaker individuals Aid Another to help Z and Torellan penetrate the Balor's AC and DR. The Balor starts losing HPs.

5: If the Balor is badly wounded it either teleports out or gates in a companion. If it's not so badly wounded it might try Implosion, or Stun + Quickened telekinesis. It continues to lose HPs, perhaps even a couple of HDs from Level Drain.

..
..
..
?: If the Balor is still in the same place it was when the battle started and it's obvious that it's almost dead the Matron will order her troops to withdraw and signal to the Earth Elemental to drop the roof on the demon. Several tons of rock should be enough to finish it off and would also contain it's Death Throes, saving us all from 50 or 100 points of damage.

Basically our success depends on the Balor arriving at the entrance and abstaining from gating in another Balor to help it. We might actually have a chance of victory.


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## Dalamar (Apr 21, 2004)

Uriel said:
			
		

> As well, I do have a _Bless Weapon_ Oil...if we have a melee monster that has a chance to get in there and strke, a Blessed Weapon is _Good_ thing.
> (pun intended)



 Dear Lolth! Does Torellan qualify as a melee monster? 'Cause I've got some cold iron daggers in store. Considering that the balor will most likely have _unholy aura_ running, its AC is going to be 39, which will mean that T needs a 16 on his first attack to hit (if he casts his _magic weapon_ on the cold iron dagger), an 8 if somebody *looks at Zieggrek* grapples it so it'll lose its Dex bonus to AC.

The problems with this are:
1) The balor needs to have already expended its AoO before Zieggrek attempts to start a grapple, otherwise it will be able to stop Zieggrek
2) The *Flaming Body* ability of the balor deals, on average, 21 points of damage a round, and Zieggrek only has a resistance of 10 against it, meaning he'll be taking lots of damage from it
3) The balor will still be able to use all its SLAs without fail (DC for 9th level SLA in grapple is 29 and it has a bonus of +33)

Points to take note of:
1) _Haste_ will increase the chance of succeeding immensely (That extra attack is yummy, and +1 to attacks helps)
2) _Bull's strength_ on Torellan will increase chance of succeeding somewhat (+2 damage is always nice, increasing Torellan's damage to d4+10 with a +1 blessed cold iron dagger)
3) SOMEBODY cast _protection from [alignment]_ on Zieggrek! We don't want him dominated
4) Zieggrek definately wants to drink his potion of greater magic fang and apply it to his grapple
5) The Balor needs to be hit with 10 Energy Drains to outright die. Quertus has _enervation_, which also bestows d4 negative levels

Another question: The description of Energy Drain reads (beginning of second paragraph): "An affected opponent takes a -1 penalty on all skill checks and ability checks, attack rolls, and saving throws, as loses one effective level or Hit Die (whenever level is used in a die roll or calculation) for each negative level".
Does "whenever level is used in a ... calculation" include gaining bonus HP from high Con? 'Cause if it does, the balor will be losing 10HP for each negative level it takes 20HP for a vampire's Energy Drain)


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## Pyrex (Apr 21, 2004)

It doesn't actually lose the HD (or it's associated CON bonus), but each negative level does cost it 5hp anyway.

If you're willing to head into melee range, Carcelon will happily apply Oils of _Bless Weapon_ to your cold iron daggers.

If Quertus (or Kripp, or possibly Carcelon) drops a _Resist Energy_ on Z he'll do much better grappling the Balor.

And Carcelon will definately be standing in line for the _Bears Endurance_, the extra HP will keep he alive (well, above -10 anyway) if she gets caught in range of its death throes.

If made fire resistant, the Beb's also stand a reasonable chance of grappling the Balor.


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## Dalamar (Apr 21, 2004)

The biggest thing at the moment, is that we don't have the time to change our spells known for those who can do it (i.e. Quertus and Kripp) to better accommodate for fighting against a Balor. So Quertus can't prepare his newly gained _banishment_, for example.

And I just checked the DMG, it is much better on Energy Drain (I previously just looked at the MM entry for it). Yeah, so it doesn't lose 20HP a shot from my slam, but it's still nice for reducing it's CL for the SLAs so it'll actually have to worry about our SR (and making it easier on Z to beat those grapple checks).


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## Endur (Apr 21, 2004)

You had six hours after the Balor arrived before he dropped the ceiling.  Quertus and Kripp could change out all of their spells in that time frame.



			
				Dalamar said:
			
		

> The biggest thing at the moment, is that we don't have the time to change our spells known for those who can do it (i.e. Quertus and Kripp) to better accommodate for fighting against a Balor. So Quertus can't prepare his newly gained _banishment_, for example.


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## Xael (Apr 21, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> You had six hours after the Balor arrived before he dropped the ceiling. Quertus and Kripp could change out all of their spells in that time frame.



Spells reworked, and ready to kick some Balor's butt. And Quertus made _Tongues_ permanent earlier, so now those damn Celestials should understand him...

6 _Enervation_s prepared...


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## Endur (Apr 21, 2004)

Please post in the IC thread all buff spells cast.


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## Xael (Apr 21, 2004)

Quertus's before-combat tactics:

1. _Mage Armor, Shadow Mask_ and_ Shield _cast at self (yay...).

2. _Rary's Telepathic Bond_ with Quertus, Matron, Torellan, Zieggrek, and somebody else (who?, volunteers?) in it.

3. _Magic Circle Against Evil_ cast at Zieggrek and Kilcif.

And Quertus can cast those _Endurance_s and _Bull's Strength_s. Does anybody else besides Carcelon and Torellan need either one?

That's about it. Not much, I know.

And Quertus wants a cold iron weapon. Anything will do. It's for the _Banishment_. And if you for some sick reason have an extra _Bless Weapon_ oil, it might help too.


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## Dalamar (Apr 21, 2004)

I have an extra cold iron weapon (two daggers, but since I won't be throwing them, I only need one).


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## Pyrex (Apr 21, 2004)

The Bebiliths should also get _Bulls Strength_ so they can help Z grapple.

If nobody else has got one, Carcelon will cast _Protection from Fire_ on Z (if someone else has some we should make sure the Bebs get one too).

I've got an extra _Bless Weapon_ oil Quertus can use as well.


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## Xael (Apr 21, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Please post in the IC thread all buff spells cast.



As soon as I know what to cast on who.


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## Seonaid (Apr 22, 2004)

Narcelia's new level (to Cleric 14):

+4 HP (to 60)
BAB +1/+1 (to +10/+5, melee +12/+7, ranged +13/+8, grapple +12)
Fort +1 (to +9)
Will +1 (to +14, +16 v. spells & spell-like abilities)
SR +1 (to 25)
Diplomacy +2 ranks (to +6)
K/Religion +1 rank (to +19)
Spellcraft +1 rank (to +19)
Spells per day +1 for 6th & 7th levels (to 5 and 4, respectively)


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## Seonaid (Apr 22, 2004)

Narcelia would take the _Telepathic Bond_, if no one else steps up. She definitely needs an _Endurance_. As for the combat itself, she has nothing to contribute, so unless someone wants to tell her what to do, she's just going to sit around, far away from the baddies. Literally.


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## Seonaid (Apr 22, 2004)

Okay, sorry for posting so late. I didn't get a chance last night, what with the boards down. I just read the IC thread, so if my posts (particularly regarding buff spells) are too late, I understand.

Serpenteye, the answers to your questions. I'm sorry I took so long. I'm posting here so I don't disrupt IC actions.

1: Has Narcelia's mind been tampered with, prior to this intrusion?

Not to her knowledge.

2: Does Narceila recall (consciously or sub-consciously) how she survived after her fall into the river?

She dreamt she was captured by Illithids. If it was not a dream, perhaps they found her and took her somehow.

3: Does Narceila have any ambition to usurp the rule of the House?

No. She's content to let "nature" take its course, be it old age (ha!) or a knife in the back (double ha).

4: Is Narceila conspiring with any individual or group, for any purpose?

No.

5: Is Narceila loyal to the Spider Queen?

Yes, but her loyalties are weakened from the Silence.

6: Does Narceila love her mother, Ki'Willis Millithor?

Of course not.

7: Does she respect her mother?

Perhaps less so since her change, but definitely yes.

8: What are her feelings about Illithids?

She loathes and fears them, for being inferior beings who are hard to deal with (i.e., they aren't really inferior).

9: Has Narceila's body been tampered with?

Not to her knowledge.

10: Does she trust her mother?

As much as one drow can trust another. More than she trusts anyone except herself.

11: Who does she hate, fear, loathe, admire? 

This is kind of vague, and it delves into things I haven't considered for this character. If you want more detail, or had a different spin than I answer, tell me. Since Narcelia's _dominated_, she'll answer. 
She fears Lolth and Kiaransalee, and Illithids to a very much weaker extent. She hates and loathes all non-drow. She hates and loathes drow who are not devotees of Lolth, and/or who are not in the House. She admires (distantly) the Matrons who managed to keep control of their Houses and retain all of their power or gain more during the Silence. Included in this group is the Matron, but that's a different sort of relationship, so "admiration" might not be the right term.

12: Has she ever broken the law of the Spider Queen?

Of course not!

13: Has she ever been disloyal to the House?

Of course not!

14: What exactly has she been dreaming the last week?

Take from the dream posts what you will. She wouldn't remember them precisely, or necessarily accurately, so use your experience in dreams and take what you will from them. The Illithid dream would be the strongest, since it was real (or so I'm assuming).

If Ki'Willis discovers answers different than those I've posted, let me know if she tells Narcelia in any way about that. The answers I've given are those that I, the player, know, and that Narcelia "knows." If Narcelia were to discover that she had been doing things she was not consciously aware of, it would change her greatly.


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## Goddess FallenAngel (Apr 22, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> If Zieggrek dies, and Quertus is alive, he'll raise you. He just picked up _Limited Wish_.



Thanks, Xael. Although I am sure you would do it for your own selfish reasons....  



			
				Xael said:
			
		

> She's in a fortress with permanent _Forbiddance_, and the place is full of god-knows-what. If we could bring the _Forbiddance_ down however, we could use the good old, scry-buff-teleport tactics.



We _do_ have scrolls of Mage's Disjunction, do we not?...


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## Xael (Apr 22, 2004)

Goddess FallenAngel said:
			
		

> Thanks, Xael. Although I am sure you would do it for your own selfish reasons....



Well, there are some people Quertus wants to see ripped to shreds.  



> We _do_ have scrolls of Mage's Disjunction, do we not?...



I'm not sure if we had time to buy them yet. If not, we can do that after the fight (if we're alive).



Endur: Added Endurance on Narcelia too.


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## Uriel (Apr 22, 2004)

Kripp can cast (from Wands) Bull's Strength,Bear's Endurance and Resist Elements.

Everyone who wants any of these, please Post here and let me know which you desire. I have plenty of charges for all (at least for this encounter).

Spells for Kripp

0:<6>No LightX3,Read Magic,Mending,Guidance

1:<8>(D)Entangle,Stupor,Divine Favor X2,Cure Light Wounds X2,
Command.

2:<7>(D)Mark of the Outcast,Dance of Ruin,Lesser Restoration X3,
Cure Moderate Wounds x2.

3:<7>(D)Control Water,Searing Light,
Dispel Magic X2,Cure Serious Wounds x3.

4:<6>(D)Rushing Waters,Summon Monster IV x2,Cure Critical Wounds x3.
.

5:<5>(D)Dehydrate,Summon Monster V x3,Plane Shift.

6:<4>(D)Drown,Banishment,Dispel Magic(Greater) ,Planar Ally *


* This will require payment. Do we have enough commoners to give up a bounty of Souls for a demon, say a Vrock or Hezrou?


Alternately, if we have enough cash/Souls...I coud cast several Planar Ally spells. I'm sure multiple Vrock/Hezrou/Glabrezu would slow him down a bit...along with the stream of Summoned _targets_ that I will be sending at him.

If anyone has any suggestions/requests, speak now, as I think we have a few IG hours to discuss (Endur allowed us to switch out spells etc...).
It's 3 am and I am beat, I probably overlooked something really good as far as choices go.

That Balor is going to love my _[Rushing Waters_ spell.


Endur, can I choose to memorize a Domain spell multiple times, I wasn't sure, and i am a bit rusty on Domain/Cleric rules.  If so, I will switch out the Summon Monster IV for Rushing Waters....no SR, Str 34 Collossal size Bull Rush.


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## Serpenteye (Apr 22, 2004)

If we have enough commoner souls to bring in a few allies the Matron is willing to pay pretty much anything (except herself + family).


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## Serpenteye (Apr 22, 2004)

Seonaid said:
			
		

> Serpenteye, the answers to your questions. I'm sorry I took so long. I'm posting here so I don't disrupt IC actions.




The Matron deems the answers satisfactory and dismisses the Domination. Narcelia is sent to bed (some hours before the arrival of the Balor).


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## Pyrex (Apr 22, 2004)

Uriel said:
			
		

> Endur, can I choose to memorize a Domain spell multiple times, I wasn't sure, and i am a bit rusty on Domain/Cleric rules.  If so, I will switch out the Summon Monster IV for Rushing Waters....no SR, Str 34 Collossal size Bull Rush.




Nope, you can only memorize the domain spell in a domain slot.  
However, you can memorize it again in a higher level domain slot


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## Endur (Apr 22, 2004)

Sadly, you don't have any commoner souls on hand (all the commoners are on the commoner level).  Vampires (and other undead) are not valued by Fiends.  

You could make a future promise (i.e. an IOU), but of course that has risks as well.

Most Hezrou, Vrocks, etc. would not be interested in battling a Balor (which might lead to trust issues).  Bebiliths would, though. 



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> If we have enough commoner souls to bring in a few allies the Matron is willing to pay pretty much anything (except herself + family).


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## Serpenteye (Apr 22, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> You could make a future promise (i.e. an IOU), but of course that has risks as well.




Yes, Pyrex, do that. And if that gets too complicated we can just offer it some money.


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## Seonaid (Apr 23, 2004)

I'm rusty on spells, but if _Resist Elements_ would do any potential good within the duration of the spell, Narcelia would take it.


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## Xael (Apr 23, 2004)

Tension. Rising.



Quertus' planned combat tactics:

1. _Dimensional Anchor_ at Balor.

2. _Enervation_(s).

3. _Limited Wish_ for -7 to Balor's next save.

4. _Banishment_. Pray.

5. Scream like a little girl and run around praising Lloth *OR* curse everything to hell.

55% chance to pass Balor's SR. Any suggestions?


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## Serpenteye (Apr 23, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> Tension. Rising.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I don't think Banishment will work if the Balor is Dimensionally Anchored. Besides, it doesn't solve the problem since there's nothing stopping it from plane shifting back to the Prime Material and attacking us again tomorrow. Killing it is the only (semi-) permanent solution.


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## Xael (Apr 23, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> I don't think Banishment will work if the Balor is Dimensionally Anchored. Besides, it doesn't solve the problem since there's nothing stopping it from plane shifting back to the Prime Material and attacking us again tomorrow. Killing it is the only (semi-) permanent solution.



Not sure about the _Dimensional Anchor_ + _Banishment _thing (Endur? Would be nice to know.). But Balors don't have _Plane Shift_ (which is probably the reason why they haven't conquered material plane yet). Unless the other Balor (or some spellcaster) summons it back, it's not coming back. Anyway, the DA keeps the Balor from escaping at least (hard to grapple when one is teleporting). And I don't think we want to let it away to plot surprise attacks.

I can just pepper it with _Ray of Enfeeblement_ and _Enervation_s if the Banishment route doesn't get support. Zieggrek and others should be able to rip it to shreds after it's weakened (if not before). We just better not give it time to lay waste with spell-like abilities.


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## Serpenteye (Apr 23, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> Not sure about the _Dimensional Anchor_ + _Banishment _thing (Endur? Would be nice to know.). But Balors don't have _Plane Shift_ (which is probably the reason why they haven't conquered material plane yet). Unless the other Balor (or some spellcaster) summons it back, it's not coming back. Anyway, the DA keeps the Balor from escaping at least (hard to grapple when one is teleporting). And I don't think we want to let it away to plot surprise attacks.
> 
> I can just pepper it with _Ray of Enfeeblement_ and _Enervation_s if the Banishment route doesn't get support. Zieggrek and others should be able to rip it to shreds after it's weakened (if not before). We just better not give it time to lay waste with spell-like abilities.




We should definately try to Anchor it, rather than banish it. I think there's a fair chance that Kurgoth has a 9th level or higher cleric under his command (5th level spell).


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## Dalamar (Apr 23, 2004)

How are we going to make the balor spend its Attack of Opportunity so Zieggrek will have a chance to initiate that grapple?


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## Xael (Apr 23, 2004)

Dalamar said:
			
		

> How are we going to make the balor spend its Attack of Opportunity so Zieggrek will have a chance to initiate that grapple?



Just have one of the Vamps to try to grapple it first... 



> Torellan currently has a full attack of...



Two points higher if the _Bull's Strength_ is still in effect. It might have ended when Balor took a tour of Szith Morcane though, I'm not sure in what point the spells where cast.


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## Serpenteye (Apr 23, 2004)

Dalamar said:
			
		

> How are we going to make the balor spend its Attack of Opportunity so Zieggrek will have a chance to initiate that grapple?




Is it better that he grapple than disarm the Balor? With a two handed weapon he should be able to inflict quite a bit of damage, and save the very valuable weapon from an automatic destruction when the Balor dies. Perhaps the best solution is that he disarm the Balor round 1 then start the grapple round 2 to make the balor easier to hit for the rest of us.


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## Xael (Apr 23, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Perhaps the best solution is that he disarm the Balor round 1 then start the grapple round 2 to make the balor easier to hit for the rest of us.



That might be a good plan. And it's going to be rather humiliating for the Balor if it works.


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## Dalamar (Apr 23, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> Two points higher if the _Bull's Strength_ is still in effect. It might have ended when Balor took a tour of Szith Morcane though, I'm not sure in what point the spells where cast.



Damage, yes. Attack, no (Weapon Finesse and all that). But I had already forgotten the spell on my damage, thanks for reminding me about that


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## Xael (Apr 23, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> The Matron wonders why Zieggrek disregarded her order to disarm the Balor with vampiric aid.



Probably because there are no Vampires near the Balor to help him. At least this round.


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## Serpenteye (Apr 23, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> Probably because there are no Vampires near the Balor to help him. At least this round.




Maybe, though perhaps there should have been. Perhaps Goddess F A was more in favour of the grapple-plan, and Endur based his descision on that.


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## Endur (Apr 23, 2004)

A couple of quick comments on why I posted the actions I did.

We are not all sitting around a table looking at a battle map.  So I have to make interpretations.  Sometimes people don't make posts for days at a time.  Sometimes they don't post on the exact issue that has to be resolved.

With regards to Zieggrek, Goddess Fallen Angel's post was ambiguous so I chose a grapple under the theory that seemed the most natural combat action if you want to avoid being slain by the sword.  If she wants to change it to a disarm or a sunder, we have the die rolls, so its relatively easy to retroactively make a change.

With regards to Kripp, he hasn't made a post yet, so I left it blank until I hear what spell he wanted to cast.

With regards to the vampires, the answer is no, they did not have the actions to get close and help Zieggrek.  The monster manual does not say how vampires can command their spawn.  The MM leaves it up to the GM to decide how that happens, like many other details of the various monsters (like how often do vampires need to drink blood, once an hour, three times a day, once a week, once a century, etc?).  I made a GM interpretation that since Vampires have a Dominate power, that would be the rules that would be used for controlling their spawn.  So all the vampires spent a standard action to command their minions to attack and then used their move action to move closer.  On the plus side, I did let all of those commands occur simultaneously.  I could have made it last several rounds for the commands to percolate down to the field troops.

Finally, vampires in running water do not turn to gaseous form.  The MM says a vampire can be destroyed by being in running water for three rounds.  If the vampire could escape the running water through gaseous form, then this vulnerability would be useless.







			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Maybe, though perhaps there should have been. Perhaps Goddess F A was more in favour of the grapple-plan, and Endur based his descision on that.


----------



## Endur (Apr 23, 2004)

One other comment.  

The Vampires in the chasm in gaseous form were not incompetent.  They were new born vampires.  So they may not have realized that gaseous form is the worst case ability that a vampire never wants to use.

You can't really compare a vampire that is a day or two old to a vampire that has been using his abilities for centuries.  

With regards to being bunched up, that is normal for ancient tactics.  Yes, with modern day weapons (bombs, machine guns, etc.), bunching up is frowned upon tactically, but it still happens even today.  Why?  because its necessary for command and control of the troops.  

In reality, command and control is not a free action.  Something like 50%-75% of the actions that the army takes might be C&C related and only 25%-50% would actually be attack/move actions.


----------



## Serpenteye (Apr 23, 2004)

How often do Vampires need to feed anyway, iyc? Do they need to sleep during the "day"?

--

Ok, people. I'm all out of ideas. I don't see any way for us to beat this thing, and unfortunately we're too many to all be able to escape via teleportation (for now ).
Do you have any suggestions?

Once this battle is over I'll find Ki'Willis a cleric of nearly any evil deity who will accept drow followers and convert. She's utterly annoyed with Lolth by now (for her weakness, her breach of contract, her failure in Ki'Willis own test of faith (yes, the Matron is going insane)) and will desert her at her earliest convenience. It's all too clear to her that any amount of weakling followers are less powerful than the abilith to prepare and cast 8th level spells. Power, power to defeat Irae and restore the House to glory, is more important than any tradition or superstitious fear.

I just recalled that Loviatar has a whole nation of Drow worshipers in Dambrach (iirc), maybe she would be a better choice.


----------



## Endur (Apr 23, 2004)

I have not had time to check any of the vampire specific d&d materials (Ravenloft Von Rhictofen's guide).  If anybody has the time to check, we'll go with that rule.  Otherwise, I think they need to feed on a daily basis, but they do not have to drain someone completely every day.

Sleeping during the day: only on the surface world.  In the Underdark, they still need to sleep but they can choose their sleep cycle.  Again, I'm willing to go with Von Rhictoven if it has alternative rules.



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> How often do Vampires need to feed anyway, iyc? Do they need to sleep during the "day"?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 23, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Once this battle is over I'll find Ki'Willis a cleric of nearly any evil deity who will accept drow followers and convert.



I believe Hruggek is now recruiting a few foul characters… 



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> I just recalled that Loviatar has a whole nation of Drow worshipers in Dambrach (iirc), maybe she would be a better choice.



Not sure it’s its true or not but yeah I can see Loviatar...  Lolth and her could be twins separated at birth.

I have no suggestions on how we live through this...


----------



## Seonaid (Apr 23, 2004)

Narcelia will easily convert, as long as the faith isn't too dissimilar to what she knows. What is Carcelon's religious status, if I may ask?

I have no suggestions as to survival either.


----------



## Endur (Apr 23, 2004)

Loviatar is Lawful Evil, so it might even make sense for the Matron (whose alignment is drifting from CE to LE).


----------



## Pyrex (Apr 23, 2004)

It would depend a lot on how it was brought up.

Carcelon isn't sure how much (ahem) faith to put in _TWSID_, but he did present an avenue to follow...


----------



## Seonaid (Apr 23, 2004)

Narcelia would never ask. I was just curious.


----------



## Seonaid (Apr 23, 2004)

By the way, there is _nothing_ Narcelia can do in this combat except be killed, so she's really _not_ going to do anything. If the Matron orders her into combat, she might not even obey because it would mean suicide, and she (Narcelia) knows it. If someone has a suggestion, feel free. Unfortunately, Narcelia is still kind of out of it (not thinking straight, so she's kind of just waiting), and I don't know of anything I can have her do to be at all helpful.


----------



## Serpenteye (Apr 23, 2004)

Seonaid said:
			
		

> By the way, there is _nothing_ Narcelia can do in this combat except be killed, so she's really _not_ going to do anything. If the Matron orders her into combat, she might not even obey because it would mean suicide, and she (Narcelia) knows it. If someone has a suggestion, feel free. Unfortunately, Narcelia is still kind of out of it (not thinking straight, so she's kind of just waiting), and I don't know of anything I can have her do to be at all helpful.




It's the same with the Matron, her spell selection is useless and her weapons can't penetrate the DR. She just moved forwards to raise morale (or at least prevent it from turning into a rout)

--
Where's Wraith-Morcane (my only loyal servant  ), and Mr Dominated Apprentice?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 24, 2004)

Seonaid said:
			
		

> If someone has a suggestion, feel free. Unfortunately, Narcelia is still kind of out of it (not thinking straight, so she's kind of just waiting), and I don't know of anything I can have her do to be at all helpful.



Well if we can't escape via spells then jump in Kilcif's arms when he starts running...  You’re a light load and no one in the party is going to be able to put more distance between the demon than him.


----------



## Seonaid (Apr 24, 2004)

Sounds like a plan.


----------



## Uriel (Apr 24, 2004)

Dammit...

Well, it's a bit late, but here's what I/Kripp was going to do.

Prior to combat Bulls strength and bears end on myself and anyone else who wants them,divine favor on myself,resist elements on whoever wants it, bless weapon oil for Kiclif.
cast Summon Monster IV Celestial Lion, a second one, a Sum V(Hound Archon). All sent at the Balor's position when we attack, to draw it's attacks.

When I see the Balor, Rushing Waters, then hold Greater Dispel in anticipation of his spells/powers.

m ok with burning drown first, but these are my further round actions, sorry for not posting earlier.


----------



## Endur (Apr 24, 2004)

I was thinking initially that you might want to try Rushing Waters, but with the crowd of vampires that was around the Balor, I wasn't so sure you would after what happened to Narcelia.  So that's why I went with drowning waters (which if it worked would have slain the Balor).

Kripp can't summon the Celestial Lion and the Hound Archon.  The Powers of Good will not let a fiend such as Kripp summon them.  In the PHB, this rule is implemented by not allowing evil divine casters to memorize spells with the Good Descriptor and giving summoning spells an alignment that is the same as the summoned creature.



			
				Uriel said:
			
		

> cast Summon Monster IV Celestial Lion, a second one, a Sum V(Hound Archon). All sent at the Balor's position when we attack, to draw it's attacks.
> .


----------



## Uriel (Apr 24, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> I was thinking initially that you might want to try Rushing Waters, but with the crowd of vampires that was around the Balor, I wasn't so sure you would after what happened to Narcelia.  So that's why I went with drowning waters (which if it worked would have slain the Balor).
> 
> Kripp can't summon the Celestial Lion and the Hound Archon.  The Powers of Good will not let a fiend such as Kripp summon them.  In the PHB, this rule is implemented by not allowing evil divine casters to memorize spells with the Good Descriptor and giving summoning spells an alignment that is the same as the summoned creature.





My mistake sorry
Replace  with a Bearded Devil and 2 Ice Mephits to harrass the balor.


Off to work now.

If I am unable to get close, I will just heal whoever i can, and use my Wand of Fleshripper on the Balor.


----------



## Endur (Apr 24, 2004)

The Bearded Devil isn't interested in anything Kripp has to say.  

The Lord of All That Swims in Darkness has sent you a pair of Swimmers in Darkness, a Fiendish Large Crocodile in the entry hall and a Fiendish Huge Shark in the river (if you can get the Balor down to the river).



			
				Uriel said:
			
		

> My mistake sorry
> Replace  with a Bearded Devil and 2 Ice Mephits to harrass the balor.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Goddess FallenAngel (Apr 24, 2004)

My post was rather unclear, so see my IC post. 

From now on, I will attempt to just kill the balor. If the weapons get too irrating (a.k.a. about 1/2 hp), I will attempt to disarm or Sunder them. All povided I can catch up with the balor using levitate (pushing along ceilings, etc).

Also, on another note - I am graduating from college on the 30th. Also, on Monday the 26th, I am loading a moving van with the contents of my apartment and driving to Indianapolis from Mid-Michigan. As such, I will be out of touch for at least 1 week. The first week of May I should have access to an Internet connection, but it will be a bit spoardic until probably the 2nd week in May when I get everything together. Just a warning that I will not be posting again for at least 1 week. Sorry to drop out right now (I really want to kill the Balor!). I will attempt to check in before then, but I can't promise.


----------



## Xael (Apr 24, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Ok, people. I'm all out of ideas. I don't see any way for us to beat this thing, and unfortunately we're too many to all be able to escape via teleportation (for now ).
> Do you have any suggestions?



First, we're done over 80 HPs worth of damage to it. I thinks that's quite nicely. Second, Quertus has the scroll of _Teleportation Circle_, if we have to escape.


----------



## Dalamar (Apr 24, 2004)

And casting _teleportation circle_ takes 10 minutes, not exactly a quick getaway.

Just tell the elemental to collapse the chasm again, regardless of who will get crushed.


----------



## Serpenteye (Apr 24, 2004)

Dalamar said:
			
		

> And casting _teleportation circle_ takes 10 minutes, not exactly a quick getaway.




But reading a scroll is a standard action.



			
				Dalamar said:
			
		

> Just tell the elemental to collapse the chasm again, regardless of who will get crushed.




It's probably seen enough of the Noble level to be able to (greater) teleport around the cave-in.


----------



## Dalamar (Apr 24, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> But reading a scroll is a standard action.





			
				DMG p. 213 said:
			
		

> Activating a magic item is a standard action unless the item description indicates otherwise. However, *the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, whether it's a scroll*, a wand, or a pair of boots, unless the item description specifically states otherwise.



 Bold mine.

The description for scrolls on pages 237 and 238 does not specifically say otherwise, so casting _teleportation circle_ from a scroll does indeed take 10 minutes.


----------



## Endur (Apr 24, 2004)

Yet another 3.5 modification.  Anybody notice that cover is now a straight +4 bonus, not modified by amount of cover (i.e. 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, etc)?



			
				Dalamar said:
			
		

> Bold mine.
> 
> The description for scrolls on pages 237 and 238 does not specifically say otherwise, so casting _teleportation circle_ from a scroll does indeed take 10 minutes.


----------



## Endur (Apr 24, 2004)

130 points of damage by the third round.  I forgot that the hasted Bugbear archer fires four arrows per round, so he got another hit for 26 points.  And the Cone of Cold affected the Balor in round 3 as well.

Firestorm cleared out some of the minions.  As to Narcelia, she does currently have the most hit points of anybody in the party except for Kilcif and Zieggrek.



			
				Xael said:
			
		

> First, we're done over 80 HPs worth of damage to it. I thinks that's quite nicely. Second, Quertus has the scroll of _Teleportation Circle_, if we have to escape.


----------



## Seonaid (Apr 24, 2004)

I agree that the amount of damage you did to it is nice. I still have nothing of substance to add to the discussion.


----------



## Dalamar (Apr 24, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Yet another 3.5 modification.  Anybody notice that cover is now a straight +4 bonus, not modified by amount of cover (i.e. 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, etc)?



 Yeah, and concealment is a straight 20% miss chance, or 50% for full concealment.


----------



## Uriel (Apr 25, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> The Bearded Devil isn't interested in anything Kripp has to say.





Correct me if I am wrong, but with a _Summoned_ monster, it's views and desires don't mean squat. I am not parlaying with it.


I doubt that it makes much difference as far as slowing down the Balor anyways.


Endur, I posted actions about a minute after you auto-acted for me. Kripp is healing instead of using the FR wand (which doesn't seem to be very good against Balors).

My following action is stated as greater Dispel when given the chance.
If the Balor flies lower, say to a level where a _Rushing_ Waters could knock him down to the River, then Kripp will take his shot, regardless of any vampires in the way...or anyone else. Just keep that in mind, all...I do come from an insane race of degenerate fishmen...


----------



## Endur (Apr 25, 2004)

Uriel said:
			
		

> Correct me if I am wrong, but with a _Summoned_ monster, it's views and desires don't mean squat. I am not parlaying with it.




Not to be argumentative, but you are wrong according to my understanding of the PHB.  First, Divine Casters can't summon a creature with an opposing alignment.  Which means Kripp can't summon lawful or good creatures, which leaves out celestials as well as devils.  Second, a summoned creature is an ally who will attack obvious enemies, but he is not under the "mental command" of the summoner.  If you speak a language in common, the summoned creature will generally do what the summoner desires.



			
				Uriel said:
			
		

> Endur, I posted actions about a minute after you auto-acted for me. Kripp is healing instead of using the FR wand (which doesn't seem to be very good against Balors).



I changed the flesh ripper to a cure spell.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Apr 25, 2004)

From the SRD:



> This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.




From that, it's open to question how much control the summoner has, but it's dead certain that were the Bearded Devil summoned into combat, it would attack the balor to the best of its ability, regardless of its personal opinions on the matter.


----------



## Endur (Apr 25, 2004)

The PHB does not allow demon worshippers to summon devils.  p.33, section on chaotic, evil, good, or lawful spells.  p.286 summon monster spell has the alignment of the monster that is summoned.



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> From that, it's open to question how much control the summoner has, but it's dead certain that were the Bearded Devil summoned into combat, it would attack the balor to the best of its ability, regardless of its personal opinions on the matter.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Apr 25, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> The PHB does not allow demon worshippers to summon devils.  p.33, section on chaotic, evil, good, or lawful spells.  p.286 summon monster spell has the alignment of the monster that is summoned.




I forgot Kripp's god was chaotic as well as evil.


----------



## Uriel (Apr 25, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> The PHB does not allow demon worshippers to summon devils.  p.33, section on chaotic, evil, good, or lawful spells.  p.286 summon monster spell has the alignment of the monster that is summoned.




Oh, I am sorry. 3.0 was so ambiguous on the subject, I hadn't fully read the 3.5 version. Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## Endur (Apr 25, 2004)

FYI: I posted the round 4 action for Badrazel.  I have not seen Quertus's action for round 4, so depending on what Quetus wants to do, Badrazel's action may change.

But if the action does not change, Badrazel gates in Errtu, another Balor who hates drow.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Apr 25, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> FYI: I posted the round 4 action for Badrazel.  I have not seen Quertus's action for round 4, so depending on what Quetus wants to do, Badrazel's action may change.
> 
> But if the action does not change, Badrazel gates in Errtu, another Balor who hates drow.




Errtu?  Isn't he still banished from the Prime?


----------



## Uriel (Apr 25, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> FYI: I posted the round 4 action for Badrazel.  I have not seen Quertus's action for round 4, so depending on what Quetus wants to do, Badrazel's action may change.
> 
> But if the action does not change, Badrazel gates in Errtu, another Balor who hates drow.





I think we are _Bar-B-Q_...


----------



## Endur (Apr 25, 2004)

He was until Cadderly summoned him voluntarily, ending Errtu's banishment.  Drizzt was very upset at Cadderly for doing that.



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Errtu?  Isn't he still banished from the Prime?


----------



## Endur (Apr 25, 2004)

Uriel, since you are posting now, you never told me what you wanted for a planar ally?  I'd recommend another Bebilith (for four total) or a Shadow Demon.  



			
				Uriel said:
			
		

> I think we are _Bar-B-Q_...


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 25, 2004)

Uriel said:
			
		

> I think we are _Bar-B-Q_...



Indeed I think it's time for the good ole "survival of the fittest” and in D&D that’s the person with the best constitution and/or the one that can run the fastest…   

If someone wants a "ride" they best be speakin soon.


----------



## Endur (Apr 25, 2004)

On the bright side, Badrazel summoning another Balor means that he concedes that you would have slain him if he didn't summon help.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Apr 25, 2004)

Well, that would be comforting if we had a fresh batch of PCs to use to kill the new balor.  Unfortunately, we don't.


----------



## Endur (Apr 25, 2004)

hmmm, some of the PCs are fresh.  Kilcif doesn't have a scratch on him and he has inflicted a lot of damage on the Balor.



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Well, that would be comforting if we had a fresh batch of PCs to use to kill the new balor.  Unfortunately, we don't.


----------



## Endur (Apr 25, 2004)

And I just realized that one of his arrows was an automatic critical thanks to the Bless Weapon on his bow as well as Torellan's dagger. Badrazel is sitting around -197 hit points.  Its possible Quertus could finish him before he summons Errtu, or cast a spell that prevents Badrazel from using his spell like abilities.  



			
				Endur said:
			
		

> hmmm, some of the PCs are fresh.  Kilcif doesn't have a scratch on him and he has inflicted a lot of damage on the Balor.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 25, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> hmmm, some of the PCs are fresh.  Kilcif doesn't have a scratch on him and he has inflicted a lot of damage on the Balor.



Kilcif still needs someone to stand in front of him as fodder...  Besides he's going to be to busy running in a few seconds. 

Honestly if we banish the first one does the second one go along for the ride?  (sorry I'm clueless with spells but we all should know this by now.)


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Apr 25, 2004)

It's listed as a Summon, rather than a Call effect; that may make it easier to return him whence he came.


----------



## Endur (Apr 25, 2004)

A dispel magic or an anti-magic globe or something similar would send Errtu back. That is correct.  

Also, on another topic Quertus almost died to the Firestorm.  He took greater than 50 points of damage and rolled a 5 on his fort save (DC 15).  His normal fort save is +8.  I'm ruling that the firestorm was cast by an evil creature so he gets the +2 bonus from his magic circle against evil, so he gets a 15 on his fort save.  Although this is a very close call, and it would be reasonable to rule either way on the +2.    



			
				Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> It's listed as a Summon, rather than a Call effect; that may make it easier to return him whence he came.


----------



## Xael (Apr 25, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> FYI: I posted the round 4 action for Badrazel. I have not seen Quertus's action for round 4, so depending on what Quetus wants to do, Badrazel's action may change.
> 
> But if the action does not change, Badrazel gates in Errtu, another Balor who hates drow.



Unless Quertus gets extremely lucky, I don't think he has the chance to prevent Badrazel from summoning Errtu. The only thing that Quertus has that could deal enough damage to kill him, is Disintegrate. And he has fort save of +22 (or 26), and we'd almost all die in the explosion. Quertus could always try to use _Banishment_, but there's not much sense to it without using _Limited Wish_ first.

And uhh, Balors explode when they reach -10 right? Then it might be good that it's in the chasm... We just need to inflict about 100 points of damage to the Balor, and put it somewhere between -1 and -9, and shout "Sorry" to the ones that are down. The problem is that if we overdo (or underdo) the damage, we'll die. 

If we manage to banish or kill Badrazel *after* he summons Errtu, does Errtu disappear?

Quertus could also use _Limited Wish_ to cast _Transmute Rock to Mud_ at the ceiling of the chasm. Though I'm not sure if that would be a good idea. How would a flying creature react?

Or could Quertus use _Limited Wish_ to stop Badrazel from using his summoning ability?



> A dispel magic or an anti-magic globe or something similar would send Errtu back. That is correct.



Well, Quertus has 2 Dispel Magics, but they'd have to go agaist CL 20, while they're cast as CL 10... :\ Quertus could use _Limited Wish_ to cast the _Antimagic Field_, but it would be centered at him, and he has no intention of going any closer to the Balor(s).



> Also, on another topic Quertus almost died to the Firestorm.



 



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> If someone wants a "ride" they best be speakin soon.



I'm starting to agree with you. Fortunately Quertus has Dimension Door and Greater Teleport, so he can take somebody along with him if we flee. If he's still alive.  



Frankly, I propose that we either Banish Badrazel now, or get the hell out of there. Quertus can't take another _Firestorm_.


----------



## Dalamar (Apr 25, 2004)

Think positively, at least Errtu can't summon yet another balor. 

But I agree, we're in big trouble. Especially when it comes to Torellan's coffin if we decide to Teleport away. Too bad we couldn't get it grappled, that would've made things a lot easier.


----------



## Serpenteye (Apr 25, 2004)

Desperate times...


----------



## Serpenteye (Apr 25, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Ki’Willis 8(-31): Flies up and gives a speech.




Pathetic, isn't it?  :\


----------



## Endur (Apr 25, 2004)

I gave Quertus a +5/+10 modifier to the banishment spell for rare items.  He managed to get through the SR, but Badrazel rolled a 20 on his will save.

On the plus side, Errtu is trapped in webbing for the moment.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 25, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Ki’Willis 8(-31): Flies up and gives a speech.





			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Pathetic, isn't it?  :\




Well, let me put it this way if Kilcif still had the arrow you would be dead after that action...


----------



## Xael (Apr 25, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Pathetic, isn't it? :\



The speech itself was quite nice actually. It just didn't work.


----------



## Serpenteye (Apr 25, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Well, let me put it this way if Kilcif still had the arrow you would be dead after that action...




 That would have made a great scene, very comical. Not quite as cinematic as Lolth arriving in all her awul glory and tearing the Matron apart, but quite cool nevertheless.


----------



## Serpenteye (Apr 25, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> The speech itself was quite nice actually. It just didn't work.




I didn't think it would, but it seemed the right thing to do with the character. She needs something concrete to justify the new direction I'm taking her in (if she survives).


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 25, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> That would have made a great scene, very comical. Not quite as cinematic as Lolth arriving in all her awul glory and tearing the Matron apart, but quite cool nevertheless.



I just wonder if everyone would clap or come after Kilcif....


----------



## Serpenteye (Apr 25, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> I just wonder if everyone would clap or come after Kilcif....




Both.  

--
btw Endur, the Matron has Fast Healing 3.


----------



## Uriel (Apr 25, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Uriel, since you are posting now, you never told me what you wanted for a planar ally?  I'd recommend another Bebilith (for four total) or a Shadow Demon.





Sorry, Bebilith,please.


----------



## Endur (Apr 25, 2004)

Yes, and if I recall correctly, nothing can cause a Revenant to be destroyed, other than the passage of time or obtaining revenge.



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> btw Endur, the Matron has Fast Healing 3.


----------



## Serpenteye (Apr 25, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Yes, and if I recall correctly, nothing can cause a Revenant to be destroyed, other than the passage of time or obtaining revenge.




Nothing? So if she's brought below 0 hps she'll just keep on going?


----------



## Xael (Apr 25, 2004)

Announcement: I just noticed that Quertus can use _Limited Wish_ to cast _Shadow Walk_, and transport 14 people with it.

Ladies and gentlemen, we have an escape plan.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (Apr 25, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> Announcement: I just noticed that Quertus can use _Limited Wish_ to cast _Shadow Walk_, and transport 14 people with it.
> 
> Ladies and gentlemen, we have an escape plan.




Quertus is now my bestest friend in the whole wide world!


----------



## Xael (Apr 25, 2004)

Paxus Asclepius said:
			
		

> Quertus is now my bestest friend in the whole wide world!



Good. Now everybody just need to haul their arses to the entrance level.


----------



## Serpenteye (Apr 25, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> The speech itself was quite nice actually. It just didn't work.




Thanks, btw.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 25, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> Good. Now everybody just need to haul their arses to the entrance level.



Consider Kilcif their.   But aren't we all their anyhow?  (Minus the swimmers)


----------



## Dalamar (Apr 25, 2004)

Torellan is up on the wall, and Zieggrek is levitating in the chasm


----------



## Xael (Apr 25, 2004)

And Matron is flying somewhere in the chasm. And Dariel is down somewhere. And a dozen or two vamps are going to be abandoned, but hey, s**t happens.

Lesson of the day: Always have an escape plan. Always. I seriously need a _Shadow Walk _scroll or two.


----------



## Seonaid (Apr 25, 2004)

Yes, I liked the speech a lot. Narcelia was moved to prayer, which is good, sort of.


----------



## Seonaid (Apr 25, 2004)

Would Narcelia's _Darkbolt_ harm the balors? I've been holding back on that (it's her ONLY useful spell) because I wasn't sure if it would.


----------



## Endur (Apr 26, 2004)

I need to double-check the rules on what happens when she goes below 0.  It looks like Revenants only get fast healing, not regeneration, so going below 0 would be bad for a Revenant. 



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Nothing? So if she's brought below 0 hps she'll just keep on going?


----------



## Pyrex (Apr 26, 2004)

Nice speech Serp.  Definately provides us with some working material if the Matron proposes we all convert...

Carcelon is currently going to run around the corner (no line-of-effect between her and the balors); but if we're Shadow Walking out of here let me know and she'll come back into the entrance hall.


----------



## Endur (Apr 26, 2004)

Ask that question of someone who has access to the Forgotten Realms book right now; my book is unavailable.  I think Darkbolt would affect Balors.  As would many other spells; I wouldn't give up on spellcasting just because the Balor has SR and high saves.  



			
				Seonaid said:
			
		

> Would Narcelia's _Darkbolt_ harm the balors? I've been holding back on that (it's her ONLY useful spell) because I wasn't sure if it would.


----------



## Endur (Apr 26, 2004)

Maybe Lolth knew that Ki'Willis was going to make that speech, so Lolth sent Badrazel as pre-emptive punishment for the speech that Ki'Willis was going to make.



			
				Xael said:
			
		

> The speech itself was quite nice actually. It just didn't work.


----------



## Endur (Apr 26, 2004)

*-219*

71 hit points to go, take one down, pass it around, 71 hit points to go


----------



## Xael (Apr 26, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Quertus casts Enervation at Errtu: Ray, Ranged Touch attack: 20, 10 to confirm + 7 BAB + 1 Dex +1 haste -4 firing into melee =15. Balor Touch AC =16 -2 entangled=14. Quertus critical hits Errtu with Enervation for 5 levels, except for the Spell Resistance: 8 + 18=26, the spell resistance protects Errtu.



*Censored* I need Robe of the Archmage. Or something similar.



And the Darkbolt affects all living creatures, which sure as hell includes Balors.



			
				Pyrex said:
			
		

> Carcelon is currently going to run around the corner (no line-of-effect between her and the balors); but if we're Shadow Walking out of here let me know and she'll come back into the entrance hall.



Or maybe we should come after him. We'll see.



Oh, and:    *KILL THE FRIGGIN' BALOR!!!*


----------



## Xael (Apr 26, 2004)

You know, did Quertus have time to buy those scrolls of _Mordenkainen's Disjunction_? I'm not sure. And frankly, since Errtu could be dispelled, it matters quite much. Quertus had two _Greater Teleports_ prepared before he changed his spells for the Balor-fight.

No save, no SR. Goodbye, summoned Errtu.


----------



## Serpenteye (Apr 26, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Maybe Lolth knew that Ki'Willis was going to make that speech, so Lolth sent Badrazel as pre-emptive punishment for the speech that Ki'Willis was going to make.




The characters might believe that if they were indoctrinated with the misconception that Lolth is all-powerful (which is unlikely). But considering all they know about the situation in Maerimydra (and the chaos and destruction that's consuming the drow civilization) and Kurgoths role in the rebellion against the old Lolthite order it is unlikely that they would believe that Badrazel was an agent of Lolth.


----------



## Dalamar (Apr 26, 2004)

Torellan is gas already, Errtu's blast took him to 90 points of damage, but he only has 78 unless I've miscounted (12+11*6=78)


----------



## Endur (Apr 26, 2004)

I edited it for Torellan going to gaseous form.  Mr. Balor is back to having 73 hit points (Torellan didn't critical since he was gaseous and I forgot DR on an attack by one of the Bebiliths).



			
				Dalamar said:
			
		

> Torellan is gas already, Errtu's blast took him to 90 points of damage, but he only has 78 unless I've miscounted (12+11*6=78)


----------



## Endur (Apr 26, 2004)

In 3.0, Bless Weapon was pretty useless.  How often do you roll a 20?  But in 3.5, Bless Weapon is kicking butt.  With the new high AC of Fiends, you'll only hit on a 20 anyways, so with a blessed weapon, at least you get an automatic critical.


----------



## Endur (Apr 26, 2004)

If Quertus went to buy the scrolls, he would still be buying them while the House is fighting the Balor.



			
				Xael said:
			
		

> You know, did Quertus have time to buy those scrolls of _Mordenkainen's Disjunction_? I'm not sure. And frankly, since Errtu could be dispelled, it matters quite much. Quertus had two _Greater Teleports_ prepared before he changed his spells for the Balor-fight.
> 
> No save, no SR. Goodbye, summoned Errtu.


----------



## Endur (Apr 26, 2004)

The characters were definitely indoctrinated with the conception that Lolth is all-powerful (all Drow in Menzoberanzan are).  They were also indoctrinated with the idea that Lolth is the Lady of Chaos.



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> The characters might believe that if they were indoctrinated with the misconception that Lolth is all-powerful (which is unlikely). But considering all they know about the situation in Maerimydra (and the chaos and destruction that's consuming the drow civilization) and Kurgoths role in the rebellion against the old Lolthite order it is unlikely that they would believe that Badrazel was an agent of Lolth.


----------



## Pyrex (Apr 26, 2004)

In case you missed it in the IC thread Endur, here's Carcelon's actions:

Rd 5:  Run away.

Rd 6:  Use wand of CLW


----------



## Xael (Apr 26, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> If Quertus went to buy the scrolls, he would still be buying them while the House is fighting the Balor.



Ok, then we'll just have to run.


----------



## Endur (Apr 26, 2004)

*Thank You For Playing*

Thank you for playing.

It has been my favorite D&D game to run, and my second favorite game overall (my favorite was the game Endur played in).

With Badrazel slain by Kilcif's critical hit, and Matron Ki'Willis, Kripp, and Zieggrek slain by the explosion, and Kilcif beheaded by Errtu's vorpal blade, its time to end the game.

Thanks again!  GMing has been rough, but its been a heck of an experience to gm such a diverse and imaginative group.


----------



## Serpenteye (Apr 26, 2004)

Thank you Endur, thank you all. You have made this a wonderful game. I could say that I'm sorry I botched it, that my strategies didn't measure up, but I won't. I will say that I'm proud to have played with such an excellent group of people and that I hope to see you all again in other games. It has been one hell of a ride.   

It would not be impossible, now when Badrazel is slain, that Errtu would depart and Quertus could Wish the dead mortals back to life. The Game would be over for the Matron, but maybe Narcelia or one of the other daughters could lead the group onwards.


----------



## Seonaid (Apr 26, 2004)

::jaw drops:: I haven't read the IC thread yet. Holy cow! My favorite campaign is over!    I was just gettin' ready to blast away with my _Darkbolts_. Guess I'll have to read IC and see what happened . . . :-\


----------



## Pyrex (Apr 26, 2004)

Thanks for the game Endur.  Best PBP ever, in the running for best game ever.


----------



## Xael (Apr 26, 2004)

Aww...

Crap. What can I say? Been hell of a pleasure to play, this was my favourite game ever. And first game that I've actually seen nigh-TPK in. Great thanks to Endur and other players, had a wonderful (even if sometimes a bit frustrating) time gaming with you. Glad to be in the game from the beginning.

And bloody hell, Quertus lives!   



And yes, it could be theoretically possible for Quertus to raise everybody exept Matron (and maybe Torellan, if the Balors destroy his body). But hey, if Endur says it's over, then it's over. 



And Endur: Soo... planning to DM more games here on the boards?


----------



## Seonaid (Apr 26, 2004)

Anyone want to pick this one up? I've really really enjoyed this one.


----------



## Dalamar (Apr 26, 2004)

Oh damn, I was waiting for the others to beat Errtu so Torellan could come back. 

But it's been a great game for the time I was in. Thanks to everybody for making it that, especially Endur for bearing us and our stupid things.

And I agree with Xael, you running any more games where I could join, Endur?


----------



## Endur (Apr 26, 2004)

If someone wants to GM, please feel free.  

I'm not going to GM any more games or play in any more on-line games.  My life is going to be going through 52 card pickup for several years (changing careers, school, moving, and lots of other life stuff).



			
				Seonaid said:
			
		

> Anyone want to pick this one up? I've really really enjoyed this one.


----------



## Uriel (Apr 27, 2004)

Fun game, Endur.I was a late comer, but I enjoyed Kripp's very short life in the Underdark, thanks again.


One last time...


Bloop!

I'm going to miss that...


----------



## Seonaid (Apr 27, 2004)

As others have said, thank you all, and Endur in particular. I greatly enjoyed this one and I'm going to miss everyone and everything. Good luck, Endur, with your changes.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 27, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Thank you for playing.




Thanks for DMing. 



			
				Endur said:
			
		

> It has been my favorite D&D game to run, and my second favorite game overall (my favorite was the game Endur played in).



I'm not good with ranking games but this has been by far one of my most favorite games... 3rd probably all time, and the best one ever via PbP. 




			
				Endur said:
			
		

> With Badrazel slain by Kilcif's critical hit, and Matron Ki'Willis, Kripp, and Zieggrek slain by the explosion,




So he killed the undead bitch after all. 



			
				Endur said:
			
		

> and Kilcif beheaded by Errtu's vorpal blade.




D'oh!!!!!



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> It would not be impossible, now when Badrazel is slain, that Errtu would depart and Quertus could Wish the dead mortals back to life. The Game would be over for the Matron, but maybe Narcelia or one of the other daughters could lead the group onwards.




That's my summary also...  And it sounds like you’re on your way to your first post as DM...   (Hopefully?  maybe?  We need not fallow the book...  The house is gone it could simply be about survival now and the new found respect everyone should have for Kilcif.  )


----------



## Xael (Apr 27, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> So he killed the undead bitch after all.



Damn right he did... And in a flashy way too!  



> And it sounds like you’re on your way to your first post as DM...  (Hopefully? maybe? We need not fallow the book... The house is gone it could simply be about survival now and the new found respect everyone should have for Kilcif.  )



I'll second that. Except maybe for the last part.  Not sure if Zieggrek and Kripp have very friendly feelings towards Kilcif.  

But yeah, we need a DM to continue the heroic tales of our righteous group of... Err... something.


----------



## Serpenteye (Apr 27, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> That's my summary also...  And it sounds like you’re on your way to your first post as DM...   (Hopefully?  maybe?  We need not fallow the book...  The house is gone it could simply be about survival now and the new found respect everyone should have for Kilcif.  )




Maybe. It's no more than fair that I try my hand at DM-ing after all the gripe I've subjected poor Endur to . I'm not an experienced DM, and I probably won't buy the module, but I believe I could piece together something half-decent anyway. I know enough about the main opponents, and WOTC have maps on-line, so it wouldn't change too much. I will cut you an occasional break, but I'll play your opponents as ruthlessly as they should be played. Endur has done a great job, and I'm not planning on changing the feel of the game.

First, I have a question for you all. Where do you want to take the campaign? Do you want to continue to Maerimydra and eventually square off against Irae, or is there something else you want to do? I like the combination of politics and combat that we have had so far in the game, and I'd like to keep a similar balance in the future.

I'm not promising anything, yet. But it could happen.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 27, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> I'm not promising anything, yet. But it could happen.



*LOL* that was far easier than I thought it would be...   I wasn't sure if you wanted to drop from the game completely so I started to try and recruit a DM from outside the party....

I hope no one minds at this, I know I didn't ask anyone before hand, but I honestly didn't want to get anyone hopes up...

Hopefully 4000 posts is worth something more than a symbol of wasted time.   

As for where I want to see it go, Since I'm the only Non Drow, again, I would like to see a non drow campaign but I realize that is probably at odds with everyone else so I'm happy just to continue as is.  

Since we might be redoing some stuff is their any chance we could redo some character stuff?  Feats, PrCs, and I don't know say a nice 32 point buy.


----------



## Pyrex (Apr 27, 2004)

There's really several options (listed in roughly my order of preference):

1) A new DM resumes the current campaign.

2) A new DM branches into a new campaign with the current (living) characters.

3) A new DM starts a new campaign with the current players.

Which options are people interested in?


----------



## Xael (Apr 27, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Where do you want to take the campaign?



No idea, I'm in it for anything. We really don't have much reasons to go against Irae other than bloodlust and Triel's orders (and I'm not sure what they even were). Quertus is all for leaving everybody alone to kill themselves and possibly try something new. He (and I) doubts that we can take on Kurgoth, Irae, and their armies at present strength.

Hell, we could do just about anything. We could continue and go kick Irae's butt. We could go after Solom. Or Laral. Or we could go to the surface, get peg-legs and cool hats, take parrots as pets and be pirates or something. But I (and Quertus) don't like Szith Morcane anymore, that's for sure. The party is very high level, and we could just pop on the other side of the world.


----------



## Dalamar (Apr 27, 2004)

I'm interested in all the options, though I'd like to try out the new soulknife class from the Expanded Psionics Handbook, so option 3 (or 2, if Torellan is considered 'dead' ) would be good. That being said, Torellan has lots of potential for playing left, what with his 'problem' and all.


----------



## Xael (Apr 27, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Since we might be redoing some stuff is their any chance we could redo some character stuff? Feats, PrCs, and I don't know say a nice 32 point buy.



*Drool*


----------



## Serpenteye (Apr 27, 2004)

I'm only really interested in DMing option 1 and 2 (that is, if anyone wants me to DM at all). I favour #1, since otherwise I suspect the group will lose its common purpose and game-play will crawl to an eventual halt. Gallivanting off wildly will probably soon lose its novelty and become dull and pointless, but maybe that's just me.
If we're starting an entirely new campaign with new characters I'd rather play than DM.

Uriel is also an excellent DM (compared to my mediochre), who's character in the game also happens to have expired. He would probably be a better choice than I, assuming off cource that he's willing.


----------



## Xael (Apr 27, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> I'm only really interested in DMing option 1 and 2 (that is, if anyone wants me to DM at all). I favour #1, since otherwise I suspect the group will lose its common purpose and game-play will crawl to an eventual halt. Gallivanting off wildly will probably soon lose its novelty and become dull and pointless, but maybe that's just me.



We've got so many people to kill that killing them all will a decade.


----------



## Uriel (Apr 28, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Uriel is also an excellent DM (compared to my mediochre), who's character in the game also happens to have expired. He would probably be a better choice than I, assuming off cource that he's willing.




Well, I already have 6 games that I am trying to revive from semi-sporadic posting. Between that and my current work schedule, I don't honestly thing that I could keep the game up to the pace that we have experienced.
It doesn't help my plea that I also _own the module_.

Er...

(Looks for someone else to DM so that I can play my 1 turn Balor kill character).


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 28, 2004)

I just want to play Kilcif...  Isn't a summoned creature dismissed when the person/creature who summoned it is killed?


----------



## Pyrex (Apr 28, 2004)

Nope.

Once a spell (or SLA) is cast, its duration is independent of the casters lifespan.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 28, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> Nope.
> 
> Once a spell (or SLA) is cast, its duration is independent of the casters lifespan.




Well it doesn't work that way in Neverwinter Nights...   


I got an email back from my "recruiting of a dm" and its looking to be pretty good news...  They still want some time to read the thread(s) and check a few things out.

So does anyone have any objects to an "outsider" taking over the game?


----------



## Uriel (Apr 28, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> So does anyone have any objects to an "outsider" taking over the game?




As long as he's not a _Githyanki_...I don't trust those basterdz...


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 28, 2004)

Uriel said:
			
		

> As long as he's not a _Githyanki_...I don't trust those basterdz...




*LMAO* That was rather funny...


----------



## Seonaid (Apr 28, 2004)

For reasons already stated, I would prefer not option 3.  I really kind of like Narcelia, and it would be fun and interesting to continue with the still-alive characters. I don't care who DM's. Endur did an excellent job. I'm starting to become incoherent, so I'll stop now and resume this some time when I'm awake.


----------



## Serpenteye (Apr 28, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> So does anyone have any objects to an "outsider" taking over the game?




Not at all, since that will give me a chance to play. Endur wrote something about the Matron being indestructable before her vengeance was achieved... Maybe she could remainfest herself, or something? What does it say about Revenants in the FRCS?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 28, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> Once a spell (or SLA) is cast, its duration is independent of the casters lifespan.



I can see why Endur said that he was ending the game now...  I don't see how those still alive can take out the remaining Balor...  :\ 

Anyhow, no new emails in my box this morning but I shall keep everyone informed.

Serpenteye, works for me.


----------



## Dalamar (Apr 28, 2004)

They don't have to take it out, Quertus just Greater Teleports away and then returns in an hour to bring everybody back and see Torellan grinning


----------



## Goddess FallenAngel (Apr 29, 2004)

Endur, Thanks for the great game and the original invite to join. Good luck on your 52-card pickup life  and I hope to still see you around the boards. It has been a blast, and this is one of the best pbp games I have ever been in (even though it has been a long time since I have had a character killed) 

As for continuing the game under a new DM - it will depend on the new DM's rules, etc. for me... and it will depend on if Zieggrek comes back or not. *LOL*


----------



## Endur (Apr 30, 2004)

A couple of quick comments regarding Quertus and bringing back the dead in the Forgotten Realms.

1) Quertus would not believe that he could raise the dead with limited wish.  While living in Menzoberanzan, Quertus never heard of any drow spellcaster, divine or arcane, who brought back the dead.  Quertus has only heard one rumor of one drow returning from the dead, Quenthel Baenre, and he heard that that was accomplished through an extremely deadly and costly quest (which costs the lives of several nobles from House Baenre) and the quest had the blessing of Lolth.  There is also a rumor that Quenthel came back CHANGED (i.e. sort of like Gandalf the Grey to Gandalf the White, except that Lolth had modified Quenthel's personality not her powers) and that Lolth hard wired various quests into Quenthel's brain.  Quertus has heard of surface divine casters who have brought the dead back to life, but he thinks those might be charlatans.

3) In the Forgotten Realms, Raising (or Resurrection or Reincarnation) of the Dead requres the permission of the target as well as the permission of the target's deity.  Good Deities will usually grant permission if their petitioner was a hero and desires to return to life to commit more heroic deeds or for love or some other "good" reason.  Evil deities rarely grant permission (see #1 above for the example of Lolth above) and only do so under stringent circumstances; Irae (an extrememly high ranking cleric of Kiaransalee) only has permission from her Goddess to restore her daughter Dorina to life (according to the module).  Quertus and the surviving party members (Tierak, Carcelon, and Narcelia) could attempt to negotiate with minions of the appropriate divine beings for the restoration of the slain party members.  Demogorgon is probably worse than Lolth with regards to getting souls of his worshippers back, since he is evil and likes to eat the souls of his minions.  I have no idea regarding Hruggek (who is chaotic evil), but our resident expert on Bugbears (Brother Shatterstone) can give us insight on how likely it would be for Hruggek to let one of his souls go.  With regards to Lolth, there is the additional problem that she is silent; unless you can re-establish communication to Lolth, there is little hope of recovering Zieggrek's soul.  Finally for Matron Ki'Willis, there is also the issue of whether the wavering Ki'Willis had faith at the end; if she died faithless she could be in a particularly bad place in the Underworld.   

3) Resurrection or Reincarnation would work to bring Matron Ki'Willis, Kilcif, Kripp, and Zieggrek back to life (assuming you get past points 1 and 2).  Raise Dead would not work since none of the slain bodies are in appropriate states of condition for Raise Dead.  For reasons of points 1 and 2, I'd recommend the scrolls of Create Undead the party is carrying around (or buying new scrolls).




			
				Xael said:
			
		

> And yes, it could be theoretically possible for Quertus to raise everybody exept Matron (and maybe Torellan, if the Balors destroy his body). But hey, if Endur says it's over, then it's over.


----------



## Serpenteye (Apr 30, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> With regards to Lolth, there is the additional problem that she is silent; unless you can re-establish communication to Lolth, there is little hope of recovering Zieggrek's soul.  Finally for Matron Ki'Willis, there is also the issue of whether the wavering Ki'Willis had faith at the end; if she died faithless she could be in a particularly bad place in the Underworld.




Does it require the deity's active permission to raise the dead? Could it not be enough that the deity is not actively opposed to the spell? In the case of Zieggrek and (possibly) Ki'Willis there's no deity who's trying to keep their souls in the demonweb pits and there should be nothing preventing the spell from working as usually.
If Ki'Willis' soul has gone to Kelemvor (the lord of the faithless dead) will he permit her to return to the living or not?


----------



## Pyrex (Apr 30, 2004)

And don't forget "Does Quertus want to spend several hundred XP?"


----------



## Endur (Apr 30, 2004)

The fate of the souls entrusted to Lolth is currently unknown.  Recent visitors to the Demonweb have been unable to find the souls of newly slain or age old drow.  (In one of the War of the Spider Queen novels, the protagonists travel to the Demon Web and remark upon the absence of the souls).  

With regards to Kelemvor, I have no idea what he is doing with faithless dead.  Maybe someone else knows?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Apr 30, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> I have no idea regarding Hruggek (who is chaotic evil), but our resident expert on Bugbears (Brother Shatterstone) can give us insight on how likely it would be for Hruggek to let one of his souls go.




Wow, at that resounding introduction I hate to say but...  No I can't.   Bugbears themselves have little written about them, and Hruggek has even less written about him.  He's clerics domains make me doubtful that he consider it as bugbears and brutality go hand in hand.  So if he did allow it I can only imagine that Kilcif would have some task that he needs done.  In Kilcif’s favor his level puts him up there as must tribe leaders are consider less powerful than him.  Hell he might have been the most powerful bugbear alive. (Based upon ECL.)


----------



## Pyrex (Apr 30, 2004)

BS, any word on our (potential) new DM?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 1, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> BS, any word on our (potential) new DM?



Nothing official and nothing new...  I'll shot anything email at her.


----------



## Xael (May 1, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> A couple of quick comments regarding Quertus and bringing back the dead in the Forgotten Realms.
> 
> 1)...Quertus never heard of any drow spellcaster, divine or arcane, who brought back the dead.



Now, this can be easily blamed on the drows' attitude problems. They usually have no reason to raise the dead. Or at least make it common knowledge.



> 2) In the Forgotten Realms, Raising (or Resurrection or Reincarnation) of the Dead requres the permission of the target as well as the permission of the target's deity.



This might be a bit trickier.



> 3) Resurrection or Reincarnation would work to bring Matron Ki'Willis, Kilcif, Kripp, and Zieggrek back to life (assuming you get past points 1 and 2). Raise Dead would not work since none of the slain bodies are in appropriate states of condition for Raise Dead.



Yup, happened to notice this later. Oh well.



			
				Pyrex said:
			
		

> And don't forget "Does Quertus want to spend several hundred XP?"



Well yes, there's that too. Though I doubt that he views it as such a big sacrifice for a group of meatsh... companions.  



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> If Ki'Willis' soul has gone to Kelemvor (the lord of the faithless dead) will he permit her to return to the living or not?



If I remember correctly, FRCS states that one needs to make a deal with him to raise one of the faithless. Which COULD include a promise of destroying Irae and her plans of raising hordes of undead (it's rather convenient, because Kelemvor hates undead). _Plane Shift_ time (if Quertus would have it, that is)!

*I* would agree with the rest of your post. But that's just me.


----------



## Xael (May 1, 2004)

Ok, from FRCS:

"Of more concern to most adventurers, a character who dies without a patron deity cannot be raised from the dead by any mortal means short of a _miracle_ or _wish_. When such a character dies, he is considered one of the Faithless, and his soul is used to form part of the wall around the realm of Kelemvor, god of the dead. Mortal action cannot reverse this fate, and so unless the character's friends can arrange direct intervention by another deity (or expend a _miracle_ or _wish_, spells symbolizing intervention by another deity), that character is unlikely to return to life."

So, we would need to go to Kelemvor himself, and say "Please?".


----------



## Seonaid (May 1, 2004)

Narcelia would have *no* reason to want to bring the Matron back (and a couple to want to keep her dead). Kilcif, Kripp, and Zieggrek have no special spots in her heart either. IC, there would have to be a *darn* good reason for Narcelia to agree to bring any of them back, in any form.

OOC, I'm up for anything.  I'm pretty attached to Narcelia, even though I feel I haven't been playing her that much/long. I would love to continue with her, and the rest of you players, however we can do that.


----------



## Uriel (May 1, 2004)

Seonaid said:
			
		

> Narcelia would have *no* reason to want to bring the Matron back (and a couple to want to keep her dead). Kilcif, Kripp, and Zieggrek have no special spots in her heart either.





I was going to sacrifice you to Demogorgon anyways... You or Carcelon, though he didn't take her either. Damned stupid Demon Lord...wasting a perfectly delicious Dark-Elf-Kabob.

(One more time)
'Bloop!'

If I chose to continue in this one (if that is going to happen, that is...),  am playing a machine gunning master thrower.
One turn Balor kill, baby...take 16 Touch attacks daggers, Abyssal Nancy-Boy...if I win initiative and _Sneak_ you, Ouch!

Kripp was a fun (even if not munchkiny enough for this game) character.
I haven't played a straight Cleric for a long time, and my spell choices could have been better...


----------



## Seonaid (May 1, 2004)

Uriel said:
			
		

> I was going to sacrifice you to Demogorgon anyways... You or Carcelon, though he didn't take her either. Damned stupid Demon Lord...wasting a perfectly delicious Dark-Elf-Kabob.



I had a feeling that either you or D. had that idea . . . which was why I was going to try to make some excuse not to go. But thanks to *you* I didn't have to anyway.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 1, 2004)

Okay the new DM is working on making it through all of the topics and such but obviously with a game that’s been going on this long she's slightly confused on who is who.  Also she would like to know what you would want to do, if dead, and such. So if everyone could do the fallowing.

1] List what character your playing and it's condition

2] Rather or not you would be happy with replacement characters for those dead or should we find replacements.

FYI:  I've sent an email to Endur to help with the DM notes and I've bought the adventure, and a substantial bribe, and it should be shipping soon, today or Monday.

So I would say it's pretty concrete on having a replacement DM but I will let her make the official announcement.  (If she isn't too bashful.)


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 1, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> 1] List what character your playing and it's condition




Kilcif, bugbear. (dead, and beheaded)



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> 2] Rather or not you would be happy with replacement characters for those dead or should we find replacements.



Kilcif, all the way...  I bought ghostwalk for a reason right?


----------



## Serpenteye (May 1, 2004)

Wonderful, BS, splendid, excellent, superb.  Thanks.

Welcome, new DM. 

I've played Ki'Willis Millithor (the Twize Deseased), Matron of House Millithor and (by co-habitating with the dead Matron Alisannara of House Morcane) also the Matron of that House. I'm not the original player of the character, but I've played her for most of the game until now.

At the moment Ki'Willis is very dead, undead and dead again, and probably beyond a chance of being resurrected. I can't think of a plausible way to bring her back into the game, but would be willing to play her in the unlikely event that we found one.

I would just as well roll up another character as a replacement, though. A Sorcerer, probably Human or some other 0 LA race, should make a useful addition to the group (and not step on anyone's toes too much I hope ).


----------



## Dalamar (May 1, 2004)

1) Torellan, vampiric drow with a fashion sense.

2) I could go with Torellan, or with a new character, as would be deemed fit (Torellan being head and shoulders above the other characters in ECL and all)


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 1, 2004)

Howdy all, I'm your new DM.  I hope I can make this game work for you all.  I have to work through the Rogue's Gallery and the latest game thread in addition to figuring out where you are approximately in the CotSQ.  Umm... yeah.  So I'll be working on that.

What's the average party level or level-equivalent right now?


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (May 1, 2004)

1) Tierak Morcane, proper heiress to House Morcane, now that Alisannara's corpse has stopped walking around.

2) I've never really gotten into the Tierak persona, so I'd be glad to give it up to a new player or to DM control; I'd be more than happy to make a character to complement anyone else's new character, just for the chance to have class abilities again.


----------



## Seonaid (May 2, 2004)

Welcome, Isida! I've heard Good Things about you and have been trying to get into a campaign with you for a long, long time. Glad to see it happening finally. 

I'm playing Narcelia Millithor, elder daughter, cleric of Lolth. Currently without all of her goodies and with a big plague of short-term memory loss. Quite alive and fairly healthy. I'd like to continue with her. I wouldn't necessarily quit the campaign if I couldn't, but I'd rather not have to make that decision.

Abbreviated notes on Narcelia (expanded in the OOC thread, if you're interested in reading it and have the time):
I'm really thinking of having her convert to something else, anything else. She's been through a lot and would be easy to sway. She doesn't have very much in the way of magical equipment or supplies of any sort and her recent incarceration by Illithids has left her shaken and uncertain. I don't know if she'd go Good herself, but she'd possibly go for a Neutral diety. She's had dreams of Eilistraee, though what that may or may not mean is up in the air. Anyone who could offer her security and power would attract her.

I'm up for anything, as long as it wouldn't be against character. There was some talk (perhaps only through PM) of going to the surface, and I wouldn't be against that, if Narcelia can be pursuaded. Of course, I'd be willing to take over the Underdark too. 

Again, welcome! I'm excited to have you!


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 2, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Howdy all, I'm your new DM.  I hope I can make this game work for you all.  I have to work through the Rogue's Gallery



I'll go through that and take down the posts numbers of those that are no longer needed and have them axed.   (That should make it easier for all.  Note: no recently dead characters will be axed.)



			
				Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> and the latest game thread in addition to figuring out where you are approximately in the CotSQ.  Umm... yeah.  So I'll be working on that.



I have total faith in you.   Besides I've seen you DM through bigger messes than this is. 



			
				Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> What's the average party level or level-equivalent right now?



Well are right now, minus Dalamar's Torellan, we are alll have a ECL of 15.  This is slightly missleading 

I sort of got to thinking...  I'm not one to like swapping characters, or rolling up new ones, but if Kilcif's story is told I can think of one character from this game that story has been left hanging in the balance...  I'm not sure if anyone remember metrostar or his/her Jena, but with the release of the expanded Psionics handbook she could be fun remake... 

anyhow, just some random thoughts.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 2, 2004)

Seonaid said:
			
		

> I'm up for anything, as long as it wouldn't be against character. There was some talk (perhaps only through PM) of going to the surface, and I wouldn't be against that, if Narcelia can be pursuaded.



Ahh that was in PM.   and it was back when Kilcif still had a head on his shoulders to be cunning with.


----------



## Seonaid (May 2, 2004)

I *do* remember Jena! That was an interesting character, and definitely could be used again. I would be willing, except I'd rather be Narcelia. 

Well, the PM's between me and BS were basically talk of a trip (permanent or not) to the surface . . . and I think that's still an option?


----------



## Dalamar (May 2, 2004)

And me and Xael talked, in person, about the possibility of establishing merchandise agreements between Szith Morcane and whatever was the name of that village we blundered, but then Sean Connery went all suicidy, thus effectively killing the plan


----------



## Seonaid (May 2, 2004)

Who's up for some Cha and bluff?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 2, 2004)

Seonaid said:
			
		

> I *do* remember Jena! That was an interesting character, and definitely could be used again. I would be willing, except I'd rather be Narcelia.




Well, I was actually thinking maybe for me...  Ahh considering I have no character in all.   I would need to work on that non-elven name though.  I could easily see it been a non-formal shorting of her real name though and the gods know I have ideas on how to explain her unearthly beautify.  



			
				Seonaid said:
			
		

> Well, the PM's between me and BS were basically talk of a trip (permanent or not) to the surface . . . and I think that's still an option?



Well consider that most of the party would be seriously hampered on the surface I think that option dead when Kilcif's head left his body...


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 2, 2004)

Well, you guys could always take a trip through slightly less inhabited regions of the Underdark until the pursuit for those still alive dies down or something.  From the little I've managed to read it seems this was a heavy political campaign... something I haven't attempted yet, so I'm not quite sure if you wish me to continue in this vein or want to do something completely different.  So... what do you guys want?


----------



## Xael (May 2, 2004)

1. Quertus Millithor, House Wizard (14th level Drow, ECL 16). Currently badly beaten (14 HP left) and all too close to a Balor. Fortunately has at least one action before Balor, and _Greater Teleport_ ready... Planning Lichdom, and might have (how the hell should I know) phylactery ready. Has a Quasit (right?, I forgot) familiar named Icho.

2. Would like to continue playing with Quertus, as he's starting to be quite the badass.  



As for the direction of the campaing, I'm okay with (about) everything. And since when was the campaing heavy in politics? We just told everybody to shut the f**k up and do as they're told, and then got our buttocks kicked.  





			
				Dalamar said:
			
		

> ...but then Sean Connery went all suicidy, thus effectively killing the plan.



The heroes might have raised him.



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Well consider that most of the party would be seriously hampered on the surface I think that option dead when Kilcif's head left his body...



Hampered? 95% of creatures have no SR, 90% of creatures fear us like plaque, and 100% of creatures belong to races below our glorious perfection of evolution... Or something.


----------



## Dalamar (May 2, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> The heroes might have raised him.



But I doubt he's willing to negotiate after we killed both him and the what-her-name-was wizardess. 

We could try shouting "Parley!" As he rushes to kill us, though


----------



## Serpenteye (May 2, 2004)

I'll go along with anything you guys decide. The power to make any desicions for the group is permanently out of my hands. (and so is the responsibility if things go wrong) It's quite a relief actually.   
Wether or not we'll play it politically will be completely in the hands of the party leader (and we'll need a strong leader to get things going again). I enjoy that kind of play, but it's not for everyone.  

I think the general CR of our group was 16, the Matron and Torellan were higher (M 18-19 and T 20).

What rules do you have for creating new characters, Isida?


----------



## Xael (May 2, 2004)

Dalamar said:
			
		

> But I doubt he's willing to negotiate after we killed both him and the what-her-name-was wizardess.
> 
> We could try shouting "Parley!" As he rushes to kill us, though



I wouldn't be so sure. And we didn't kill him, he died because of the poisonous spores all by himself. And Quertus would be shouting "Halt!".


----------



## Seonaid (May 2, 2004)

I love you guys. 

I enjoyed the political aspects, and I think that if we kept the focus on the drow, we'd need to continue in that vein . . . but I would be happy if we don't politicize. I know that I am not good with that, and unfortunately Narcelia is next in line. I doubt I could play a Matron well, so it would be best for me if someone else took the lead. Unfortunately, Narcelia would probably not willingly follow any of the surviving characters.

I agree with Xael's assessment of the surface. We could take 'em!  I don't think we need to, or even have any desire to, but it's a possibility. Maybe we could take over the Underdark and then go conquer the surface.

Serp: you did a great job. I'm glad to see you still with us.


----------



## Dalamar (May 2, 2004)

Torellan actually has an ECL 22 (which is 8 higher than anybody else, thanks to the vampire template). And thanks to his weapon of choice (the dagger), he isn't that efficient in being the frontline fighter that he should be.

Now... making a new character with no LA... Say, a psychic warrior with the Claw line of powers and using _expansion_ to gain Huge size... Then also get _grip of iron_ for a bonus on grapple checks... I'd like to see the Balor beating a bonus of +8 (size) +11 (PW BAB at 15th level) +4 (minimum bonus from _grip of iron_) =+23 grapple bonus before Str mod (Str having a +4 size bonus thanks to _expansion_)


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 2, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> Hampered? 95% of creatures have no SR, 90% of creatures fear us like plaque, and 100% of creatures belong to races below our glorious perfection of evolution... Or something.




And the last time you went up there you nearly managed to freeze your ass off. 

Then there’s the sun to deal with…  I’m sure you’re not very intimidating when you’re wondering around blind.  How much of your drow’s equipment is drow in make?  Do you still think you would be able to handle your own without it?

Also when Seniod and I were discusing it it was a rather small party that could travel at a high rate of speed without need for rest.


----------



## Dalamar (May 2, 2004)

Actually, drow are blinded only by sudden exposure to bright light. If they just walk in sunlight, they are merely dazzled.

Edit - I believe none of Quertus's equipment is drowcraft, which is the kind that disintegrates in the sun. Equipment that is merely made by drow doesn't have that quality.


----------



## Xael (May 2, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> And the last time you went up there you nearly managed to freeze your ass off.



Now, now, I was rather unprepared for a friggin' blizzard. A simple 1st level spell would take care of that problem. Or Lichdom.  



> Then there’s the sun to deal with… I’m sure you’re not very intimidating when you’re wondering around blind. How much of your drow’s equipment is drow in make? Do you still think you would be able to handle your own without it?



Bah, who's stupid enough to wander around there when the sun is shining. The equipment question is interesting, because I can't answer that. I certainly would mind loosing my boots, as flying is fun. Torellan might have problems though...  

Bah, _Mordenkainen's Magnificient Mansion_, and we can forget about the sun.



> Also when Seniod and I were discusing it it was a rather small party that could travel at a high rate of speed without need for rest.



You mean like getting the whole party (ok, 8 persons) to other side of the world in 3 rounds? Quertus has 3 7th level spell slots now for those lovely _Greater Teleport_s. Or few _Phantom Steed_s, that _*FLY*_ at the speed of 240 feet per round.  



And yeah, I might be a bit optimistic here, but I doubt that we would have that much problems.


----------



## Xael (May 2, 2004)

Dalamar said:
			
		

> I'd like to see the Balor beating a bonus of... +23 grapple bonus before Str mod...



Easily. Balor has grapple bonus of +36, so you would need strength of 36 just to match that. And why would it bother grappling with you, when it can just use _Implosion_.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 2, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> Bah, who's stupid enough to wander around there when the sun is shining.




Maybe the same wizard that was stupid enough to freeze his ass of when a simple 1st level spell would have spared him that hardship?   



			
				Xael said:
			
		

> The equipment question is interesting, because I can't answer that. I certainly would mind loosing my boots, as flying is fun. Torellan might have problems though...



And its a real issue... the drow live in caves for a reason.  



			
				Xael said:
			
		

> You mean like getting the whole party (ok, 8 persons) to other side of the world in 3 rounds? Quertus has 3 7th level spell slots now for those lovely _Greater Teleport_s. Or few _Phantom Steed_s, that _*FLY*_ at the speed of 240 feet per round.



No I was talking simply two people sneaking through the lines...  The people of the Dales are probably very interested in killing you right now and I have no doubt there are more powerful casters than you in the area.  



			
				Xael said:
			
		

> And yeah, I might be a bit optimistic here, but I doubt that we would have that much problems.



Then why play the game...   I expect allot of issues besides blindness, lack of equipment, and the natives being restless…  but it could be interesting.


----------



## Xael (May 2, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Maybe the same wizard that was stupid enough to freeze his ass of when a simple 1st level spell would have spared him that hardship?







> The people of the Dales are probably very interested in killing you right now and I have no doubt there are more powerful casters than you in the area.



Well, yes, there's Elminster and some of his friends, but nothing major you see?  




> I expect allot of issues besides blindness, lack of equipment, and the natives being restless… but it could be interesting.



Oh, there might be issues. It's just a matter of dealing with them. But hell yeah, it would be interesting at least.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 2, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> Oh, there might be issues. It's just a matter of dealing with them. But hell yeah, it would be interesting at least.




It would be far more interesting with Kilcif than it would be with the Jena idea I had...  Then again I haven't gotten much feedback on that one.  You're an original player (pause for aweness) what do you think of it?


----------



## Xael (May 2, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> It would be far more interesting with Kilcif than it would be with the Jena idea I had... Then again I haven't gotten much feedback on that one.



Oh, I agree with this. 



> You're an original player (pause for aweness) what do you think of it?



What has me being an "original player" (really, you joined pretty soon after the game started) have to do with Jena? :\ 

And no offense to anyone, but Jena seemed like a wuss...  (At least without Expanded Psionics Handbook.)


----------



## Serpenteye (May 2, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> It would be far more interesting with Kilcif than it would be with the Jena idea I had...  Then again I haven't gotten much feedback on that one.




I think Kilcif has more to offer role-play wise than Jena, and it shouldn't be too hard to bring him back. The party already has three beautiful females, but Kilcif has his own niche to fill.


----------



## Seonaid (May 2, 2004)

Heh heh heh . . . Start coming up with IC reasons for Narcelia to *want* Kilcif back. Uppity lesser race.


----------



## Xael (May 2, 2004)

Seonaid said:
			
		

> Heh heh heh . . . Start coming up with IC reasons for Narcelia to *want* Kilcif back. Uppity lesser race.



1. The party doesn't have a single front-line meatshield (no, Torellan doesn't count).

2. Neither an archer (and no, Torellan doesn't count).

3. Quertus wants to give him thumbs-up for that last shot of his (as should Narcelia).

4. Pack mule. Walking weapons & armor shop.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 2, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> 1. The party doesn't have a single front-line meatshield (no, Torellan doesn't count).
> 
> 2. Neither an archer (and no, Torellan doesn't count).
> 
> ...



Hey that's four more than I could think off...  :\ 

Hopefuly we can bring him back...  I'm not to go with replacing someone in mid stride.

Serpent, I sort of figured you would be one of the few to vote yes on the jena idea...  To be honest, there is less of a RP chance with Kilcif, no one listens to him and he keeps to the shadows.  Of course now he knows that most of the party is week and worthless so it could make for some interesting problems.


----------



## Xael (May 2, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> ...no one listens to him and he keeps to the shadows.



Huh? He can speak?  You know, I just noticed that Kilcif hasn't had a single IC conversation with Quertus that I can remember. Maybe that's just because Quertus tends to shut up and do as Matron tells him. 



> Of course now he knows that most of the party is week and worthless so it could make for some interesting problems.



Oh, the problems of being a badass...


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 2, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> Huh? He can speak?  You know, I just noticed that Kilcif hasn't had a single IC conversation with Quertus that I can remember. Maybe that's just because Quertus tends to shut up and do as Matron tells him.



Yeah for the most parts I would have to agree as I can think of nothing worse than seeing a 200 year old lap and momma’s boy. 



			
				Xael said:
			
		

> Oh, the problems of being a badass...




Yes, I would have to agree with that…


----------



## Serpenteye (May 2, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Serpent, I sort of figured you would be one of the few to vote yes on the jena idea...  To be honest, there is less of a RP chance with Kilcif, no one listens to him and he keeps to the shadows.




Me? Why do you think that? I like what I have seen of Kilcif so far. Anyway, what's important here is that you enjoy playing your character (whoever that may be), and you have my vote for whatever option you prefer.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 2, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Me? Why do you think that? I like what I have seen of Kilcif so far. Anyway, what's important here is that you enjoy playing your character (whoever that may be), and you have my vote for whatever option you prefer.



Oh I didn't mean it in a negative way...   I figured I did such a "mesmerizing" job on Bry you would want to see it done again. 

Hopefully I will be able to keep Kilcif, my only complaints is the lack of PrC, something I know Isida doesn't mind at all and even has a number of truly amazing home brew ones, and the 25 point build...  I would like to be the destructive force of something like a 32 or so.


----------



## Serpenteye (May 2, 2004)

About my new character... I would like to play a Sorcerer, and have a few ideas on how to make a viable character with only the core rules (the only rule-books I have). But, since I believe we're going to need the extra power, I wonder if I could get some advice from my fellow players. 
I've heard a lot of good about the Incantatrix. Does any of you have the updated 3,5 version?
And also if you know of some good, powerful and versatile spells of level 0-8 I'd appreciate the info.


----------



## Serpenteye (May 2, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Oh I didn't mean it in a negative way...   I figured I did such a "mesmerizing" job on Bry you would want to see it done again.




But beautiful flirtateous women are often rather disliked by other women. You might find your character's appearance to be a disadvatage in a world ruled by the fair sex. 
My character, a male, would probably be too busy kissing Narceila's hindquarters to have time looking at yours


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 2, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> But beautiful flirtateous women are often rather disliked by other women. You might find your character's appearance to be a disadvatage in a world ruled by the fair sex.



Hmmm that sounds like a challenge. 



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> My character, a male, would probably be too busy kissing Narceila's hindquarters to have time looking at yours



Only for a while, your character is male after all...


----------



## Seonaid (May 2, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> My character, a male, would probably be too busy kissing Narceila's hindquarters to have time looking at yours



The question then becomes is your character drow or not? A drow would at least have some chance of survival . . . 

I'm all for you guys playing whoever/whatever you want. I'm never one for "party balance" or whatnot. As I always say, as long as there's an IC reason, I'm cool with it. Unfortunately, that means some of the arguments for bringing Kilcif back are negated. 1, 2, and 4, actually. Why not just dupe some other idiot  into the role? And as for 3, oh well. It's a shame Narcelia couldn't do it, but now he's dead and gone. 

Let's just say that Narcelia doesn't really want any of them back, but if someone were to do it without her permission, no heads would roll right away . . . unless the someone brought back was the Matron.

Another thing we need to do is figure out who the new leader is. That should wait until everyone decides on their character, of course. I'd be *willing* to take the lead, but I don't know how effective I would be. :\


----------



## Serpenteye (May 2, 2004)

Seonaid said:
			
		

> The question then becomes is your character drow or not? A drow would at least have some chance of survival . . .




Sunburst, Irresistible Dance, Reality Maelstrom, Summon Monster 8... So many options 



			
				Seonaid said:
			
		

> I'm all for you guys playing whoever/whatever you want. I'm never one for "party balance" or whatnot. As I always say, as long as there's an IC reason, I'm cool with it. Unfortunately, that means some of the arguments for bringing Kilcif back are negated. 1, 2, and 4, actually. Why not just dupe some other idiot  into the role? And as for 3, oh well. It's a shame Narcelia couldn't do it, but now he's dead and gone.
> 
> Let's just say that Narcelia doesn't really want any of them back, but if someone were to do it without her permission, no heads would roll right away . . . unless the someone brought back was the Matron.



Yes, IC motivations are important. We shouldn't metagame the resolution to these issues.



			
				Seonaid said:
			
		

> Another thing we need to do is figure out who the new leader is. That should wait until everyone decides on their character, of course. I'd be *willing* to take the lead, but I don't know how effective I would be. :\




I suppose, if we settle this ooc, that everyone who's interested in becoming the leader should sign up for it, and then we can discuss the merits of their characters. It could be fun to play, but it might be a bit divisive.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 2, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> I suppose, if we settle this ooc, that everyone who's interested in becoming the leader should sign up for it, and then we can discuss the merits of their characters. It could be fun to play, but it might be a bit divisive.




“Kilcif leads!  Morningstars for everyone!” 

Actually, I'm pretty weak on the reason for raising Kilcif...  :\  All I have is that he saved a weak drow cleric from certain death two or three times now.


----------



## Pyrex (May 3, 2004)

1) Carcelon Millithor, (rather ineffective) Clr 14 of Lolth.

 2) IC, Carcelon would oppose using any significant resources to raise anyone other than Kilcif (as she owes him one)


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 3, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> 2) IC, Carcelon would oppose using any significant resources to raise anyone other than Kilcif (as she owes him one)




Yup.   and isn't it owes him still one?


----------



## Uriel (May 3, 2004)

Well, you folks have been busy today...

Serpenteye, you could always play Nurthuk (sp?). A Half-Fiend Troll would be a cool melee moster for those pesky Balors.

I _was_ Kripp, a Fiendish Kuo-Toan Cleric 12 (ECL 17). I guess he's gone the way of the guppies...belly-up-in-the-bowl and all.

I only really played him because the party neededa proper Cleric (one that had spells), and I jumped in before realizing that Kuo-Toa wasn't the ebst choice (taking a 5 level hit and all).

That reminds me: As for the dead folks' gear. Are those killed by the Balor explosion 'gone', or is their stuff lying around, because Krpp had some pretty nifth Wands.


Since nobody seems interested in bringing Krippp back (and Demogorgon may have just eaten his soul like so many fish sticks anyways...), I am thinking of a Fighter/Rogue/Master thrower type. Most likely a Githzerai or a Drow.


----------



## Pyrex (May 3, 2004)

If someone is looking for another character to bring back, Krecil could always return from Menzoberanzan.


----------



## Xael (May 3, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Yeah for the most parts I would have to agree as I can think of nothing worse than seeing a 200 year old lap and momma’s boy.



Aww...



> “Kilcif leads! Morningstars for everyone!”



*Shudder*



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> I've heard a lot of good about the Incantatrix. Does any of you have the updated 3,5 version?



I do. Short review: Friggin' cool if used correctly. 

Gains bonus metamagic feats, ability to apply them to spells cast by other casters on the fly, ability to apply metamagic to a spell already cast, ability to use metamagic with wands and staffs, ability to seize control of spells that require concentration from other casters, ability to apply metamagic feat without increasing casting time (limited uses per day), ability to seize control of other spells from other casters, and at last but not least, lowers the level-upping of all metamagic feats by one. Has to give up a school of magic at 1st level. Full caster progression.

And males are called Incantatars.

Add a level or two of _Archmage_ for bastardness.



> And also if you know of some good, powerful and versatile spells of level 0-8 I'd appreciate the info.



Well, (_Greater_) _Shadow Evocation_ and (_Greater_) _Shadow Conjuration_ are quite versatile. _Firebrand_ is a kick-ass 5th level spell from FRCS. And _Scorching Ray_ is a must for 2nd level spell selection. And oh yes. _Otto's Irresistible Dance_. Cast that on Irae.


----------



## Serpenteye (May 3, 2004)

Uriel said:
			
		

> Serpenteye, you could always play Nurthuk (sp?). A Half-Fiend Troll would be a cool melee moster for those pesky Balors.




Nigh indestructability would be pretty handy in this campaign, and if I add a couple of levels in Frenzied Berzerker he could literally eat Balors for breakfast. He'd just need some protection against Death effects and Draining, and he'd be set...



			
				Uriel said:
			
		

> That reminds me: As for the dead folks' gear. Are those killed by the Balor explosion 'gone', or is their stuff lying around, because Krpp had some pretty nifth Wands.




The Matron was killed by a fairly small margin. I'd say her corpse is drifting down river as we speak, with all her stuff and about 100'000 gps.



			
				Uriel said:
			
		

> Since nobody seems interested in bringing Krippp back (and Demogorgon may have just eaten his soul like so many fish sticks anyways...), I am thinking of a Fighter/Rogue/Master thrower type. Most likely a Githzerai or a Drow.




If the options are between Gith and Drow the latter would probably work better in the party. 
Speaking of which; Would you (plural) find it unfair if I created a character of 0 LA, while you are burdened with a +2 (or more)?


----------



## Serpenteye (May 3, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> I do. Short review: Friggin' cool if used correctly.
> 
> Gains bonus metamagic feats, ability to apply them to spells cast by other casters on the fly, ability to apply metamagic to a spell already cast, ability to use metamagic with wands and staffs, ability to seize control of spells that require concentration from other casters, ability to apply metamagic feat without increasing casting time (limited uses per day), ability to seize control of other spells from other casters, and at last but not least, lowers the level-upping of all metamagic feats by one. Has to give up a school of magic at 1st level. Full caster progression.
> 
> ...




Sexy class 

Would someone mind letting me "borrow the book" (on Firebrand, Reality Maelstrom and Incanatar)? It's no violation of intellectual property if it stays within the group.


----------



## Xael (May 3, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> The Matron was killed by a fairly small margin. I'd say her corpse is drifting down river as we speak, with all her stuff and about 100'000 gps.



Umm... I faintly remember that she was at -90 or something hit points BEFORE the Balor exploded.  



> Would someone mind letting me "borrow the book" (on Firebrand, Reality Maelstrom and Incanatar)? It's no violation of intellectual property if it stays within the group.



Well, _Firebrand_ just creates one 5-ft.-radius burst per level in medium range, that deal 1d6 fire damage per level (maximum 15d6). Components are verbal, somatic and material (a flask of alchemist's fire), and casting time 1 action.

So it's in almost all ways better than Chain Lightning, which is 6th level spell. :\


----------



## Endur (May 3, 2004)

Presume no items survived from the slain party members.


----------



## Endur (May 3, 2004)

I'd recommend against someone other than the creator playing the Jena character.  Jena's character had complexities that were not revealed.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 3, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Presume no items survived from the slain party members.



I have a hard time believing that Kilcif’s stuff went bye bye considering he went out highlander style...   



			
				Endur said:
			
		

> I'd recommend against someone other than the creator playing the Jena character.  Jena's character had complexities that were not revealed.



Not sure why most, if any of this, would be a major issues... Metrostar hasn't logged on since: 10-31-2003 02:03 PM.  I think it's safe to assume he's not coming back and with a change in DM I'm not quite sure where those complexities will even be fallowed.  :\


----------



## Seonaid (May 3, 2004)

I would be willing to lead if no one else jumps in, but I don't think I (or Narcelia) would be effective. Unfortunately, IC, there are very very few people Narcelia would follow willingly and/or happily. This will merit some heavy discussion . . .


----------



## Serpenteye (May 3, 2004)

Seonaid said:
			
		

> I would be willing to lead if no one else jumps in, but I don't think I (or Narcelia) would be effective. Unfortunately, IC, there are very very few people Narcelia would follow willingly and/or happily. This will merit some heavy discussion . . .




Carcelon is the obvious second candidate, Tierak the other. After them would come Quertus and Torellan, based on their native abilities and firepower...


----------



## Pyrex (May 3, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Speaking of which; Would you (plural) find it unfair if I created a character of 0 LA, while you are burdened with a +2 (or more)?




Fine by me.  Just keep in mind that there aren't any 0 LA races with SR.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 3, 2004)

Seonaid said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, IC, there are very very few people Narcelia would follow willingly and/or happily.




I’m not sure how much of willingness she will need to worry about…  Neither house has much left on there own, and even if the house are combined a hostile takeover could easily happen.


----------



## Seonaid (May 3, 2004)

I don't mind either if you take a 0 LA race.

As for Narcelia following Carcelon, that would only happen if Lolth told her to do so. Of course, Lolth *herself* doesn't have to create a sign . . . as long as Narcelia doesn't know it wasn't the goddess's sign . . .


----------



## Seonaid (May 3, 2004)

On a side note--in some ways, I think it would be better if dropped PC's were taken up by players of newly-dead characters, but I'm all for whatever. I firmly believe in doing what you want.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 3, 2004)

Seonaid said:
			
		

> I don't mind either if you take a 0 LA race.



This is fine by me also. 




			
				Seonaid said:
			
		

> As for Narcelia following Carcelon, that would only happen if Lolth told her to do so. Of course, Lolth *herself* doesn't have to create a sign . . . as long as Narcelia doesn't know it wasn't the goddess's sign . . .



Well if Carcelon does indeed find a way to raise Kilcif, without Narcelia's support, that sign might be 7'2 and around 400 lbs of not so happy bugbear.


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## Xael (May 3, 2004)

Seonaid said:
			
		

> As for Narcelia following Carcelon, that would only happen if Lolth told her to do so. Of course, Lolth *herself* doesn't have to create a sign . . . as long as Narcelia doesn't know it wasn't the goddess's sign . . .



*Checks the higher-level Illusion spells*

Hmm...  



I don't mind 0 LA races at all.


----------



## Pyrex (May 3, 2004)

Well, "find a way to raise Kilcif" pretty much boils down to "ask Quertus to do it".


----------



## Xael (May 3, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> Well, "find a way to raise Kilcif" pretty much boils down to "ask Quertus to do it".



Well, unless Errtu decided to invent football, Kilcif's head should be somewhere nearby. And by my interpretation, if the head is hold against the neck, the _Raise Dead_ spell should just reattach/heal it. I mean, if the spell can raise a character with an arrow through his heart (by healing/regrowing the heart), that should pose no problems.

There's always _Reincarnation_ too. 1% chance of rising in a new, shiny, Bugbear body.  

Hmm. Halfling-Kilcif...


----------



## Pyrex (May 3, 2004)

So, how would Kilcif feel about being _Reincarnated_ as an Elf?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 3, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> So, how would Kilcif feel about being _Reincarnated_ as an Elf?




After Xael scaring me for life with the Halfling idea it’s not as bad as I first imagined…     On the bright side there’s allot more single elven maidens around than female bugbears. 

I would be interested to know what would happen to his racial levels and such…?  I know the LA would just go away but what do you do with three levels of humanoid (Bugbear) which you get BAB, Saving throws HP and skills for?


----------



## Pyrex (May 3, 2004)

Just like the LA they go *poof* and are replaced with the LA+RHD of whatever you get reincarnated into.


----------



## Dalamar (May 3, 2004)

"Now Torellan leads! Dental care for everyone!"


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 4, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> Just like the LA they go *poof* and are replaced with the LA+RHD of whatever you get reincarnated into.



Yeah but a halflings is consider less than a bugbear and Kilcif would lose like four levels.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (May 4, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Yeah but a halflings is consider less than a bugbear and Kilcif would lose like four levels.




A pity they took out the good ones in 3.5.  You'd be amazed at the damage a barbarian reincarnated in pixie form can do.


----------



## Pyrex (May 4, 2004)

Yeah, there is that.

I'm sure if you were reincarnated our DM wouldn't have problems with you adding class levels to make up the difference.


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 4, 2004)

Ok um... I need a little help here.  Can someone give me a very brief, in words of one syllable, summary of the plot and various characters?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 4, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Ok um... I need a little help here.  Can someone give me a very brief, in words of one syllable, summary of the plot and various characters?




Yeah I know this is a nightmare...  Let me get the RG cleaned up, and I hope it will become clearer for you.   I sent you an email today, did you receive it?  (it should at least point you in the direction of the one who knows all.)

*EVERYONE ELSE*​
I need everyone to agree that the fallowing posts in the RG are not needed...  If one of these is needed please say something before it’s too late.

Pyrex, 3, 7, 12, 14, 16, 17.

Dalamar, 19

Uriel, 47, 57, 

List of all posts I'm going to get deleted.
2, 3(? Pyrex), 4, 7(? Pyrex), 8(? Pyrex), 9,10, 12(? Pyrex), 13, 14(? Pyrex), 15, 16(? Pyrex), 17(? Pyrex), 18, 19(? Dalamar), 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 30, 31, 33, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 47 (old Kripp?), 48 (dead NPC), 53, 55, 57 (old Kripp?),



NPC and former PC that may or may not be needed:
Marckarius Millithor (post 29)
Dariel Kront'tane (post 4)
Reftael Jerritrel (post 37)
Master Klaxeon (post 44)
Leonon Morcane (post 46, 52)
Zedarr T’Sarran (post 49)
Malacarth,  The Jaws of Doom (post 56)
Ripper 54
BG's Crew (58-64)


----------



## Xael (May 4, 2004)

It would be a lot simplier to start a new Rogue's Gallery thread, than to try to clean up the old one.


----------



## Serpenteye (May 4, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> It would be a lot simplier to start a new Rogue's Gallery thread, than to try to clean up the old one.




I agree.


----------



## Seonaid (May 4, 2004)

Do you still need that summary, Isida?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 4, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> It would be a lot simplier to start a new Rogue's Gallery thread, than to try to clean up the old one.



probaly but I would rather see creamsteak clean it up.


----------



## Seonaid (May 4, 2004)

We should start a new Rogues Gallery, OOC, and IC thread, when Isida begins the campaign anyway.


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 4, 2004)

A summary would be spiffy.  I'm going to e-mail Endur, but I'd love a summary from the players' point of view.


----------



## Pyrex (May 4, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> probaly but I would rather see creamsteak clean it up.




Why?  It makes more sense for Isida to have threads where she can edit/delete posts anyway.

Isida, how much of a summary do you need?  The entire campaign to date or just a current-state-of-events?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 4, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> Why?  It makes more sense for Isida to have threads where she can edit/delete posts anyway.




Only a moderator can delete a post but I do see your point and I think Isida should make a new thread in the RG also.  I would go as far as to drop in some "blank" place holder posts as I only last night found Endur's NPC post...    :\


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 4, 2004)

I'd kinda like a whole-campaign summary, but you can do the early part is real broad strokes and get a bit more detailed toward the end.


----------



## Pyrex (May 4, 2004)

Ok.  So here's the really short version.  

There was a slave uprising in Menzoberanzan, the surviving members of the house (the PC's) flee into the underdark and head to Skullport.

In Skullport we met with Lady Yssiriryl who used a scrying glass to show us Kurgoth's arena in Maermydra.  Lady Yssiriryl's weaponmaster was dragged through the mirror by Kurgoth, the mirror was broken and we had to fight the glabrezu trapped in the mirror.

After that, we decide to raise money by putting a (former) PC into an arena battle.  We get suckered into putting Dariel up against a high-level dwarven paladin.  

Dariel loses.

In the ensuing chaos, we steal on the order of 1/2 Million GP and head off towards Szith Morcane.

We arrive in S.M. and find that Irae's daughter Dorina has taken over and intends to convert us all to servants of Kiransalee so we can help Irae bring about the Graverending (ritual to animate vast numbers of undead and wipe out all life on Toril).

We explore the noble level and find the spirit (Banshee) of Matron Alisanarra Morcane.  She wails.  Carcelon saves, Matron Ki'Willis doesn't.  Alisanarra reanimates and co-habits Ki'Willis's remains as a Revenant bent on destroying Irae.

Not wanting to convert, we wipe out Dorina and her supporters and take over S.M.

While preparing to head towards Maermydra we're attacked by a balor (one of Kurgoth's lieutenants) who summons another balor for aid and half the party is killed.


----------



## Dalamar (May 4, 2004)

While the banshee killed and converted the Matron, a group was doing a raid to the surface with the intent of getting rid of a cleric. We slayed quite a few surfacers and captured even more, but all of them died during the trip back to Underdark.


----------



## Seonaid (May 4, 2004)

Little bit of detail from Narcelia's perspective:

Narcelia (elder daughter) was washed away during the battle with Dorina and her lackeys, and apparently rescued and interrogated and put on display (in a zoo-like setting) by some Illithids. She was mysteriously deposited at the feet of Carcelon (second daughter), Kripp (now dead), and Kilcif (now dead) about two weeks (?) after she was washed away. She has lost a lot of faith in everything and anything, and from an OOC perspective will be willing to do anything and go anywhere, given any amount of pressure. I'd like to take her away from Lolth and make her a cleric of another faith (to gain back the ability to cast spells and to create an interesting IC situation).


----------



## Seonaid (May 4, 2004)

*Actually, I don't remember at what point Narcelia got washed away. She was on the surface raid, and was hoping to capture and keep a nice human slave, but all the prisoners died, as Dalamar pointed out.

We almost ran into the heroes from Baldur's Gate later, but decided not to take them on. Unfortunately, they're wandering around out there somewhere and it's been noticed that Randal Morn (aka Sean Connery) is missing/dead. That's possibly a big problem for us, since we killed him. Or rather, we captured him and allowed him to die.


----------



## Dalamar (May 4, 2004)

Narcelia got washed away when we fought again the Evil Twin of the two nieces(?) of Dorina. the Good Twin helped Torellan become a vampire a little earlier, and was thanked by ripping her heart out.

Edit - And this of course happened right after the surface raid.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 4, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> In the ensuing chaos, we steal on the order of 1/2 Million GP and head off towards Szith Morcane.




Kilcif joins the party shortly before this...  He wasn't an original member.  In till about the last 5 minutes of his life he didn't know of the silence.

Oh and he Killed a Balor, and about 4 members of the party in one round.


----------



## Pyrex (May 5, 2004)

Well, he did have some help...


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 5, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> Well, he did have some help...




Of course even the great ones need fodder...


----------



## Pyrex (May 5, 2004)

And the better ones survive...


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 5, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> And the better ones survive...



This from the one that had to be saved from a simple giant...


----------



## Pyrex (May 5, 2004)

I coulda taken one.  It was three at once that caused the problem.  

Well, mabye, if I got lucky...


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 5, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> I coulda taken one.  It was three at once that caused the problem.




Yes you could have.   It's simply not a fair fight when you’re a spelless cleric.   If you had your spells it might have been the total opposite of what did happen.


----------



## Serpenteye (May 5, 2004)

What say ye?
I'm lacking some good Touch-range spells, do you have any suggestions?

Human Sorcerer 6, Incanatar 10

Feats:
1 S Iron Will (I), Spell Penetration.
2 S
3 S Spell Focus (Evocation) (A)
4 S
5 S 
6 S Empower Spell (I)
7 I Extend Spell (bonus feat)
8 I
9 I Spell Focus (Enchantment) (A)
10 I Chain Spell (bonus feat)
11 I 
12 I Skill Focus (Spellcraft) (A)
13 I Maximize Spell (bonus feat)
14 I
15 I Greater Spell Penetration
16 I Quicken Spell (bonus feat)

No Necromancy after lvl 6

Spells
0: 9: Acid Spray, Mage Hand, Open/Close, Prestidigitation, Detect Poison, Detect Magic, Read Magic, Mending, Message.

1: 5: Magic Missile, Charm Person, Chill Touch, Expeditious Retreat, Shield.

2: 5: Glitterdust, Command Undead, Ghoul Touch, Mirror Image, Resist Energy.

3: 4: Haste, Slow, Displacement, Magic Circle against Evil.  

4: 4: Black Tentacles, Dimensional Anchor, Polymorph, Scrying. 

5: 4: Firebrand, Dominate Person, Baleful Polymorph, Cloudkill.  

6: 3: Greater Dispell, Acid Fog, Antimagic Field.

7: 2: Limited Wish, Summon Monster 7.

8: 1: Greater Shadow Evocation.




Hit Die: d4.

Requirements
To qualify to become an incantatrix, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.

Skills: Concentration 4 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks, Spellcraft 4 ranks.

Feats: Iron Will, any metamagic feat.

Spellcasting: Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells.

Class Skills
The incantatrix's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Alchemy (Int), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int). 

Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.


Bonus metamagic feats at 1st, 4th, 7th and 10th level. 

At 1st level, they must give up a single school of magic.

At 2nd level, Incantatrix gains Cooperative Metamagic ability, which allows him to add metamagic feats (not Silent Spell, Still Spell or Quicken Spell) to spells cast by other spellcaster by readying an action and making a spellcraft check. DC for the check is 18 + (3 x Modified Spell Level). Usable 3 + Int modifier times per day.

At 3rd level, they can try to apply metamagic effect to any spell already in effect with spellcraft check. Same DC as in Cooperative Metamagic. Usable 3 + Int modifier times per day.

At 5th level, Incantatrix gains the ability to apply metamagic with spell trigger items (wands & staffs), by using a number of additional charges equal to the effective spell levels the metamagic effect would add to the spell.

At 6th level, they can try to seize the control of a spell that requires concentration (Implosion and such) from another spellcaster within 30 feet. The spellcasters make opposed caster level checks to determine if Incantatrix manages to seize the control. Divine spellcasters receive +2 bonus on this check.

At 7th level, Incantatrix can apply a single metamagic feat to a spell she casts without preparing it beforehand of extending the casting time. At 9th level they can use this power twice per day. (using Quicken Spell possible for Sorcerers)

At 8th level, Incantatrix can attemt to seize control of spells that don't depend on concentration, but still relies on caster's control (such as Summon Monsters of Spiritual Weapon). Opposed caster level checks.

At 10th level, the required increases in spell level when using metamagic feats are reduced by one, to a minimum of +1. This applies to the DC of the spellcraft checks made when using Cooperative Metamagic of similar abilities.


----------



## Xael (May 5, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> What say ye?
> I'm lacking some good Touch-range spells, do you have any suggestions?



_Vampiric Touch_? And you could drop _Haste_, it's not that must-have anymore.



And Incantatrix has changed much from that version. First, they now get bonus metamagic feats at 1st, 4th, 7th and 10th level. 

At 1st level, they must give up a single school of magic.

At 2nd level, Incantatrix gains Cooperative Metamagic ability, which allows him to add metamagic feats (not Silent Spell, Still Spell or Quicken Spell) to spells cast by other spellcaster by readying an action and making a spellcraft check. DC for the check is 18 + (3 x Modified Spell Level). Usable 3 + Int modifier times per day.

At 3rd level, they can try to apply metamagic effect to any spell already in effect with spellcraft check. Same DC as in Cooperative Metamagic. Usable 3 + Int modifier times per day.

At 5th level, Incantatrix gains the ability to apply metamagic with spell trigger items (wands & staffs), by using a number of additional charges equal to the effective spell levels the metamagic effect would add to the spell.

At 6th level, they can try to seize the control of a spell that requires concentration (_Implosion_ and such) from another spellcaster within 30 feet. The spellcasters make opposed caster level checks to determine if Incantatrix manages to seize the control. Divine spellcasters receive +2 bonus on this check.

At 7th level, Incantatrix can apply a single metamagic feat to a spell she casts without preparing it beforehand of extending the casting time. At 9th level they can use this power twice per day. (using Quicken Spell possible for Sorcerers)

At 8th level, Incantatrix can attemt to seize control of spells that don't depend on concentration, but still relies on caster's control (such as _Summon Monster_s of _Spiritual Weapon_). Opposed caster level checks.

At 10th level, the required increases in spell level when using metamagic feats are reduced by one, to a minimum of +1. This applies to the DC of the spellcraft checks made when using Cooperative Metamagic of similar abilities.


----------



## Dalamar (May 5, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> No Divination after lvl 6



Divination can never be chosen as a prohibited school.


----------



## Serpenteye (May 5, 2004)

Dalamar said:
			
		

> Divination can never be chosen as a prohibited school.




Can the other schools (except Abjuration) be chosen?
Have the other prerequisites for the class changed?


----------



## Dalamar (May 5, 2004)

All other schools are free fodder, but you aren't getting the benefits of specialization anymore. It doesn't anymore require ranks in Knowledge (the Planes).

I'd also suggest getting ranks in Use Magic Device since you'll be having a high Cha. With a maximum of 9,5 ranks and a good Cha mod, you'll be able to pull off quite a few of the tricks allowed by UMD.


----------



## Serpenteye (May 5, 2004)

Does Greater Shadow Evocation allow the replication of spells with expensive material components, without the need for such components?


----------



## Goddess FallenAngel (May 5, 2004)

Hey all, I just caught up on pages 17-current of this thread... I am still in the middle of moving/unpacking/arranging/job search, and internet connection is sporadic, but here is my two cents...



> 1] List what character your playing and it's condition
> 
> 2] Rather or not you would be happy with replacement characters for those dead or should we find replacements.



1.) Zieggrek Morcane, male Draegloth Barbarian, recently deseased.

2.) I would like to continue playing Zieggrek, but think that it is rather impossible short of a _wish_ or _miracle_. Barring that, I wouldn't mind a replacement character. However, I would like to see where the game is going first.    I am a newcomer, and would like to see where everyone else wants to go with the campaign... I haven't been here long enough to really have an opinion, besides scanning the previous posts.


----------



## Pyrex (May 5, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Does Greater Shadow Evocation allow the replication of spells with expensive material components, without the need for such components?




That is how I read the spell.  _GSE_ has no M component and does not state that you need components for replicated spells.


----------



## Endur (May 6, 2004)

No cleaning the RG!  But, if we were going to remove posts, these are the only posts I would want agree to having deleted: 3,7-10,12-18, 20, 23-27, 33, 53.  i.e. various minor comments, but none of the PCs and NPCs.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 6, 2004)

After seeing the last IC post I'm totally not understanding what's going on here...   last I hear Ender you had no desire to DM this thing anymore so what gives?


----------



## Pyrex (May 6, 2004)

Hmm, that might make it a bit harder to _Raise_ Kilcif...


----------



## Endur (May 6, 2004)

The last two posts are just a continuation of actions from the round 7 post.  There was some uncertainty about what happened, whether the vampires survived, what Errtu did, whether Quertus et al lived or were slain, etc.

So I posted what happened.


----------



## Endur (May 6, 2004)

You can't cast Raise Dead on someone slain by a Vorpal Sword, so what the Balor did to Kilcif's body has no game effect, its just a role playing thing.  You can still cast Resurrection or Reincarnate on Kilcif (assuming you have Kilcif's permission and his God's permission).  



			
				Pyrex said:
			
		

> Hmm, that might make it a bit harder to _Raise_ Kilcif...


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 6, 2004)

Endur, if you would be so kind, as I'm taking over your game, could you e-mail me any DM notes you might have?  I would greatly appreciate it.  Thank you.


----------



## Endur (May 6, 2004)

I need your email address.  En World does not display it.



			
				Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Endur, if you would be so kind, as I'm taking over your game, could you e-mail me any DM notes you might have?  I would greatly appreciate it.  Thank you.


----------



## Endur (May 6, 2004)

Non-spoiler GM notes:

Here are some non-spoiler GM notes (i.e. players are encouraged to read).

The game was based on WOTC's City of the Spider Queen module and the novel series The War of the Spider Queen.  The module was written before the novel series, so I made minor updates to keep the adventure consistent with the novels.  I also made updates to change the adventure to 3.5 and I removed prestige classes.  The characters were based on the AD&D Menzoberanzan boxed set characters.    

I also made many story and politics updates/interpretations, as the module is intended for hack and slash adventuring by a party of good characters (with powerful clerical spellcasting) and the author provided almost no guidance as to politics.

The silence of Lolth meant that the priestess characters could not memorize any more spells or recover their turning attempts or otherwise receive power from the Spider Queen.

The module is essentially four chapters: Chapter 1 Szith Morcane, Chapter 2 The Underdark between Szith Morcane and Maerimydra, Chapter 3 the City of Maerimydra, Chapter 4 Castle Maerimydra.  I started the adventure in the trading post of Mantol Derith and gave the characters the quest to go to Szith Morcane.

I also incorporated the Book of Vile Darkness (particularly the ArchFiends section and some of the magic items and let Uriel/Kripp have access to BOVD spells).  Demogorgon was worshipped by Kripp, various other archfiends had NPC minions.  I decided Kurgoth served Orcus for story reasons (minions of Orcus vs. minions of Kiaransalee), but the module never really says what the motivations of Kurgoth are.  

House Millithor and Mantol Derith are detailed in the Menzoberanzan boxed set.  Mantol Derith has some minor updates in the Underdark book.

I borrowed various FR items from many other sources to give more flavor to the adventure.  Randal Morn's sword (now held by Quertus), "The Sword of the Dales", is a quest item sought after by the party in a series of AD&D adventures set in the Dalelands.  

Elminister, The Heroes of the Sword Coast, The Circle of Rust and the Worm, the Cult of the Dragon, the City of the Shades, the Church of Bane, etc. are all organizations that are on the peripherary of the main adventure set in Maerimydra.  They might or might not have agents in the drow city of Maerimydra as setup by the module.

Where ever possible, I tried to keep actual combat encounters as the same as what was in the module.  Although I did make various minor updates: for instance, changing a 3.0 Drow fighter/blackguard in full plate armor with a dire flail to a 3.5 Drow Ranger with a Dire flail in lighter armor.  

The Stone Giants, for instance, are specifically noted as attacking drow on sight.  Some other encounters will specifically negotiate with drow.  

The Balor Badrazel, slain by the party in the final encounter, is in the module as Kurgoth's primary lieutenant.  And the only minion that Kurgoth really trusts to operate on his own.  He has the power to summon another Balor, so I let him summon Errtu, as that made sense for story reasons, but it could have been any Balor as the module does not specify who Badrazel would try to summon.

Dorina, Solom (level 15 drow wizard), the twin T'sarran priestesses who hated each other, are all straight from the module.  The only change I made was changing their spell selection.

In the Lake of Shadows, I kept the Claw and That Which Swims in Darkness sort of the same and made them sort of different.  The Claw was a 3.0 half-fiend, I made the Claw a 3.5 Leviathan (Underdark book, special kuo-toa).   For That Which Swims in Darkness, the module said he was the tyrant of the Lake of Shadows, but he didn't have a name in the module, so I gave him the name and an attitude.  But I left his powers and abilities the same.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 6, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> So I posted what happened.




Maybe you should have posted them when you where the DM... :\ 

Isida, I sent you his email address a few days ago, maybe a week now, did you not get it?  (Make this rhetorical, I email both you each others address)


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 6, 2004)

Endur, and Isida, the emails have been sent...

On a side note:  Since Endur seems to truly dislike everything I have suggested since he abounded the game I will probably not be here when it starts back up.   

If that’s the way it goes I want everyone to know that I’ve had a blast.  The game has never been easy, but my fellow players have always made sure it was fun.   

Rather or not I’m still here pretty much depends upon how much Isida decides to fallows Endur’s plans and/or his actions as I have no desire to make a completely new character with no historical connection to the party.


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## Serpenteye (May 6, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Rather or not I’m still here pretty much depends upon how much Isida decides to fallows Endur’s plans and/or his actions as I have no desire to make a completely new character with no historical connection to the party.




Dariel is still alive and Krecil (last seen in Manthol Derith, departing for Menzoberranzan on a diplomatic mission) may still be alive. If I felt like playing a fighter-type character I'd pick one of them. Jena also has a connection to the party, however tenuous. I don't think our DM would mind if you chose her as a replacement for Kilcif.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 6, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Jena also has a connection to the party, however tenuous. I don't think our DM would mind if you chose her as a replacement for Kilcif.



This was my first choice, and honestly probably the best choice, but Endur has reason for why he doesn't want to see her in use...  I'm trying to figure if there is a way around this.

The other two really don't interest me much at all, beside Thels (spelling?) has been gone far less than mertostar has been.


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## Pyrex (May 6, 2004)

Also if you chose to play Dariel, Krecil or Jena there's no reason you couldn't rebuild them (much as Dalamar rebuilt Torellan).


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## Serpenteye (May 6, 2004)

Isida.
How many points should I use to generate the character? How much wealth? Do you allow custom-made items (as per the rules in the SRD)? Are you ok with my choice for prestige-classes?


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## Dalamar (May 6, 2004)

Had complete warrior come out a bit sooner, Torellan would've ended up as a hexblade instead of as a wizard/fighter, and he would've prolly used a rapier or a longsword instead of a dagger.
But I like Torellan the way he is now, makes for a good character even though he isn't a combat monster.


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## Pyrex (May 6, 2004)

I don't know.  Vampire Drow pretty much screams 'Combat Monster' to me


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## Dalamar (May 6, 2004)

Not when wielding a dagger and having wizard levels dragging my fighting skills.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 6, 2004)

Dalamar said:
			
		

> Not when wielding a dagger and having wizard levels dragging my fighting skills.




I would completely agree with this statement...    No offense of course, I like the character and that's what matters anyhow.


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## Pyrex (May 6, 2004)

True, but against reasonable opponents using your level-drain slam is pretty brutal.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 6, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> True, but against reasonable opponents using your level-drain slam is pretty brutal.



True, but when’s the last time we had a reasonable opponent.


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## Endur (May 6, 2004)

What about Grivak the Goblin?    



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> True, but when’s the last time we had a reasonable opponent.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 6, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> What about Grivak the Goblin?



Before my time...


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## Endur (May 6, 2004)

You are just a victim of your success.  Most of your reasonable opponents, Zedar T'sarran, Dorina T'sarran, etc. were finished in one round.  

Even the most unreasonable opponent, Badrazel the Balor, only lasted seven rounds against your party.  

I shudder to think how powerful your party would have been if the four priestesses of Lolth had full spellcasting.


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## Pyrex (May 6, 2004)

To Badrazel's credit, he may have "only" lasted seven rounds, but he did take half the party with him.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 6, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Even the most unreasonable opponent, Badrazel the Balor, only lasted seven rounds against your party.




Very true, and it could have been quicker the roles had been better...  If my memory serves me right I'm thinking Kilcif, who had the most attacks, had some very shoty roles. (Minus his cavern clearing critical.)



			
				Endur said:
			
		

> I shudder to think how powerful your party would have been if the four priestesses of Lolth had full spellcasting.




Indeed that would have been a scary sight indeed.     but now that we are down to all spelless clerics, minus pearls and such, I wonder how we will do with the constant need for healing and such.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 6, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> To Badrazel's credit, he may have "only" lasted seven rounds, but he did take half the party with him.




I thought that credit was giving to Kilcif.


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## Pyrex (May 6, 2004)

Carcelon does have a reasonable amount of healing available between the Pearl, the Prayer Bead and her wands.

It's also likely that one of the new/returning characters will have some healing ability.

To Kilcif's credit, Badrazel "only" took half the party with him.


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## Uriel (May 6, 2004)

Dalamar said:
			
		

> Not when wielding a dagger and having wizard levels dragging my fighting skills.




Sorry for the Off topic Hijack.
I have inserted Arngen and co into the Yrtchull's Return adventure, Dalamar.
Feel free to RP before your final 3.5 conversion is done, as they are just reaquainting at this point.
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1527691#post1527691

Again, sorry to all...


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 7, 2004)

Serpenteye - Let's go with 32 point buy, and standard wealth for a 13th? level PC.  (Is 13 the average level?)  I believe you requested the Incanatrix for a PrC (correct me if I'm wrong), and I'll allow it, but I want to do a slight variation on it (as some parts of it make me twitch).


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 7, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> (Is 13 the average level?)




No it's not...  Kilcif was a normal leveled pc and he was an ECL 15.  We do have a number of very high-level ECL templates that have been added so I'll have to go and look but I imagine that the average is still 15.

Isida, you might want to start a new RG thread so that all the players can dump there current characters in there, dead or alive, so that you can some sense of organization…   The current RG is a nightmare for me, I can imagine for someone else.

Also did you get the email?


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## Pyrex (May 7, 2004)

I believe that, currently, Torellan is the strongest character at ECL 21.

Carcelon, Narcelia and Quertus are all ECL 16.

Tierak is ECL 15.

The three clerics are currently denied spells, which probably places their _effective_ ecl's at ~11 for Carcelon & Narcelia and ~10 for Tierak.  The priestesses were also allowed a 35pt buy (as opposed to 25 for everyone else) to partially make up for not having spells.

(Carcelon and Narcelia also started out over-equipped for their level, but Narcelia is currently equipmentless.  I'm not sure how Carcelon's current equip level compares to expected wealth for ECL 16)


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 7, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> Carcelon, Narcelia and Quertus are all ECL 16.




Looking at everyone I think we are all ECL 16 this lincludes Kilcif, whom I've been stating was a 15. I'm making a list that well helpful help everyone out

Tierak is ECL 15.



			
				Pyrex said:
			
		

> The priestesses were also allowed a 35pt buy (as opposed to 25 for everyone else *snip* I'm not sure how current equip level compares to expected wealth for ECL 16




To be honest I think the 35-point buy versus 25 is pretty harsh…  I think all the characters should be even out.  The spell less nature is indeed a serious weakness but all of you where give chances to convert.  Now if you had converted would you have lost those extra 25 points?

As for equipment I think we are all on the low side for normal wealth.  I’m pretty sure that Kilcif has gained little more than 10K a level since the game began for him.

So maybe we should balance out the abilities and money while we are at an intermission?


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## Endur (May 7, 2004)

ECL for each character was 16 or higher.

Basic character should have been 14th level drow character equivalent.  Torellan and Matron Ki'Willis were higher because of undead templates.  Kripp was higher because of the fiendish template.  The Matron and Krecil also started higher level (originally level 12 versus other characters starting at level 10).

There were a number of reasons why I gave the priestesses higher stat points than other characters.  First, there was a play balance reason since the priestesses didn't have spells.  Second, Drow Society has historically had females as first class citizens and males as second class citizens, resulting in slightly higher stats for drow female nobles, as the favored of society.

With regards to the converting to the worship of another God or Goddess, although it was offered, it was never clear that the Priestess would survive the attempt to convert their worship to another deity.  Evil priests have been known to persuade someone to change their religion and then sacrifice the new convert (they even get a sacrificial bonus for doing this).


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 7, 2004)

Okay everyone should be indebted to me for the rest of there lives...  I have no desire for kids so this duty will not pass on to your firstborns. 

Anyhow, the list of PCs. (with the number representing there post in the RG, link included free of charge)

Dariel; 14?, 4, NPC
Quertus; 16, 11, Alive
Carcelon; 16, 32, Alive
Narcelia; 16, 34, Alive
Matron Mother Ki'Willis; 17+, 35, Dead
Kilcif; 16, 36, Dead Undead
Torrellan; 22, 45, Undead
Kripp; 17, 65, Dead
Tierak; 15*, 50, Alive
Zieggrek; 16, 51, Dead

Please note that Dariel has not been updated in quite sometime, and that Tierak has not been updated for ECL 16 either...  (I know this cause PA has never edited the post.  )


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## Serpenteye (May 7, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Serpenteye - Let's go with 32 point buy, and standard wealth for a 13th? level PC.  (Is 13 the average level?)  I believe you requested the Incanatrix for a PrC (correct me if I'm wrong), and I'll allow it, but I want to do a slight variation on it (as some parts of it make me twitch).




I think 16 would be a more appropriate level. What changes do you want to make on the Incantatrix?


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## Serpenteye (May 9, 2004)

Bump


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 9, 2004)

Ok, so here's my thought.  I'm going to read through my new City of the Spider Queen module and get some ideas.  Then I believe we're just going to shift the timeline ahead a year, allowing people to get raised if necessary, allowing Lolth to un-silence herself, and allowing new characters into the fold.  Put everyone around 17th level (ECLs included) or so.  How does that sound?

Serpenteye, my Incanatrix is as follows:

HD: d4
Requirements:  Concentration 4 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks, Knowledge (the planes) 8 ranks, Spellcraft 4 ranks.  Iron Will, any metamagic feat.  Must be able to cast 3rd level arcane spells.  

BAB as Wizard, Saves as Wizard.
Full spellcasting progression

Level 1:  Become specialist in Abjuration, giving up a school of magic as normal.  Even if a bard or sorcerer must do this.  If already an abjurer, must give up an additional school and gain a +2 to avoid having abjurations dispelled.  

Level 2:  Send Away (Ex):  +2 bonus to all dispel checks and caster level checks to harm, banish, or overcome the SR of outsiders.  Includes dispel checks to dispel a _summon monster_ spell.

Level 3:  See Ethereal (Su):  1/day can see into Ethereal Plane for number of rounds equal to Incanatrix level.  Can see ethereal creatures up to 60 ft. away, though they appear gray and insubstantial.  No additional bonuses to attack such creatures, but can utilize spells and effects that affect ethereal creatures (like force effects or abjurations) normally, so she could, for example, cast _magic missile_ at an ethereal creature.

Level 4:  Strike Ethereal (Su):  An incanatrix can alter spells to strike ethereal targets she can see.  The casting time works like a sorcerer using a metamagic feat, spells with a casting time of one action become a full-round action, spells with a longer casting time take an extra full-round action to cast.  The altered spell takes effect on the Ethereal lane instead of the Material Plane.

Level 5:  At level 5 the incanatrix becomes immune to death effects and energy drain attacks.  

Level 6:  nothing

Level 7:  Instant Metamagic (Su):  1/day a 7th level incanatrix can use a single metamagic effect of any metamagic feat she knows on a spell without preparing it beforehand (if a wizard) or increasing the casting time (if a sorcerer or bard).  The wizard's prepared spell works as if prepared with the metamagic feat except it uses the same spell slot.  A sorcerer or bard's spell is cast without the adjustment to the casting time but works as if cast with the metamagic feat.  The incanatrix cannot use this ability if the metamagicked spell would normally use a spell slot of a higher level than she could cast.  For example a Wizard 5/Incanatrix 4 could not use an instant metamagic Silent Spell on a 5th level spell because she does not have any spell slots above 5th level

Level 8:  Improved Metamagic (Su) - When using a metamagic feat the feat's level increase upon a spell is reduced by one (to a minimum of +1).

Level 9:  Instant Metamagic 2/day

Level 10:  _Drain Item_ (Sp) - An incanatrix can drain a charge from a charged magic item, using the magic to heal herself.  If the item drained is a staff the spell level is that of the lowest-level spell that uses a single charge.  She gains 1d6 hit points per level of the charge drained.  If you get above your max, the rest become temporary hit points (max +20) that disappear after 10 minutes.  To drain a charge from an item that you are not carrying, you must make a ranged touch attack that provokes an attack of opportunity (if attended) to touch the item (the item must be in plain view).  If being held by a creature it gets a Will save (DC 10 + Int or Cha mod, whichever is primary spellcasting attribute) to prevent the item being drained.  This ability may be done 1/day/incanatrix level.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 9, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Ok, so here's my thought.  I'm going to read through my new City of the Spider Queen module and get some ideas.  Then I believe we're just going to shift the timeline ahead a year, allowing people to get raised if necessary, allowing Lolth to un-silence herself, and allowing new characters into the fold.  Put everyone around 17th level (ECLs included) or so.  How does that sound?




I'm pretty much game for anything but I sort of thought the point of this was to un-silence Lolth or at least it is from the drow prospective and if she is then what are we going to do with three clerics?  That's a hell of allot of spells and healing to contented with…  

Also taking a year off in a middle of a civil war isn’t something I can see to many, if any of the drows, that are still alive would do. 

But as I said, I'm game for anything as long as it makes sense in character.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 9, 2004)

*Cough*  Well as I'm probably not going to be able to take over where Endur left off in terms of plot and whatnot, that's why I wanted to do this.

And while you as players will be fast-forwarding a year, your characters will not.  In the interim you will be fighting the civil war, un-silencing Lolth, and some other things, but this allows me to start with a relatively clean slate in terms of both plot and characters, and I think will be less-confusing all around.  

Does that make sense?


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 9, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Does that make sense?




Yes it makes perfect sense to me.   I take it the books arrived then?  

Also what’s the plan for my character, seems like it’s next to impossible for him to make any return and if Kilcif does most if not all of his equipment is ruined…  So should I make a new character?  If so, do you see any issues with me remaking the telepath slave drow Jena?


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 9, 2004)

Umm... I have no problem, haven't gotten to her yet, but go ahead if you like.  I will probably be making some tweaks to the expanded psionics handbooks (reintroduction of talents, inclusion of Mindscape combat, jury is still out on psionic focus).


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 9, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> I will probably be making some tweaks to the expanded psionics handbooks (reintroduction of talents, inclusion of Mindscape combat, jury is still out on psionic focus).




To be honest I haven't done much with it, nor have I made it very far into the book so if you would rather not deal with a psionics just say something.   I was looking at the Wilder class, but I'm not seeing a way to make a telepath so it simply might not happen.


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## Xael (May 9, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Ok, so here's my thought. I'm going to read through my new City of the Spider Queen module and get some ideas. Then I believe we're just going to shift the timeline ahead a year, allowing people to get raised if necessary, allowing Lolth to un-silence herself, and allowing new characters into the fold. Put everyone around 17th level (ECLs included) or so. How does that sound?



*Kneels and bows three times towards Iowa.*

Though the year's downtime practically presumes that we kill Irae and complete the module, as the graverending is only a month away.

Since you seem allow prestige classes, do you allow the Archmage class? Not that Quertus could reach it before 22nd level, unless you allow changing some feats.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 9, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> Since you seem allow prestige classes, do you allow the Archmage class? Not that Quertus could reach it before 22nd level, unless you allow changing some feats.




Not saying she will, but any character still alive will need to be rebuilt also, we have a number of characters built on a 25 point system and we have a number of characters built on a 35 point system that should be evened out.


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## Xael (May 9, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Not saying she will, but any character still alive will need to be rebuilt also, we have a number of characters built on a 25 point system and we have a number of characters built on a 35 point system that should be evened out.



Well, that depends. I mean, we have an ECL 22 character (and Quertus is running around screaming "Lichdom! Lichdom!"). Not that I would complain about 7 more points to stats...


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 9, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> Well, that depends. I mean, we have an ECL 22 character (and Quertus is running around screaming "Lichdom! Lichdom!"). Not that I would complain about 7 more points to stats...



The ECL is a little different that ability points.  Being templated after the fact makes it so but if Kilcif had those seven extra points we could have had a totally different outcome.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 9, 2004)

Yeah, I'd be all about converting current classes to 32 point buy, as well as allowing some feat changes.  Hmm... if we have that much of an ECL difference I might almost want to try to get everyone semi-equal.

Anyway, I have a second thought.  How badly do you guys want to fight Irae?


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## Xael (May 9, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Anyway, I have a second thought. How badly do you guys want to fight Irae?



Who?

   

Seriously, I couldn't care less about Irae.



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> ...but if Kilcif had those seven extra points we could have had a totally different outcome.



Now that's what I call exaggerating.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 9, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> Now that's what I call exaggerating.




Exaggeration is the key to good story telling but honesty, if Kilcif had some more points to spend he would have been so simple to dominate, would have been stronger, quicker, and tougher.  If he wasn’t dominated earlier in the game, or if he hadn’t failed during those battles are group could have been seriously different and such.   



			
				Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Yeah, I'd be all about converting current classes to 32 point buy, as well as allowing some feat changes.  Hmm... if we have that much of an ECL difference I might almost want to try to get everyone semi-equal.




Good. 



			
				Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Anyway, I have a second thought.  How badly do you guys want to fight Irae?




To be honest it doesn't effect me one way or the other but I wouldn't want to go skipping through the book to find out we did indeed need to run a certain encounter or to never have the showdown at "high noon."


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## Dalamar (May 9, 2004)

If we don't count Quertus's upcoming lichdom (which is most likely a couple of more levels away, and this would be as good a place as any to use the leveled lich template from the Savage Progressions part of WotC's site), Torellan is the only one completely out of synch with everybody else's ECL. Even if everybody else is pumbed to ECL 17, he's still 5 levels higher (and I can't realistically see him losing 7 levels's worth of skills and having an IC justification for it). 
So we can have Torellan go off on his own to enjoy his new ways of pleasures since his old ones are unavailable to him as things currently stand (pun intended), and we'll write in another character for me to play. 

And wasn't Jena telepathic rather than telekinetic?


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## Serpenteye (May 9, 2004)

It all sounds ok with me. It would have been fun to finish the module, but my character couldn't care less (as long as there's some other world-shaking artifact to go after ).
 I actually like this version of the Incantatrix better, though it will put more strain on my feat-selection. The immunity to Death effects and Draining is awesome.

I don't think it's too unfair to let Torellan keep his ECL. He's not exactly optimized for his level, and the ability to spawn is really no big deal (as we've recently found out). He won't unbalance the game.


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## Serpenteye (May 9, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Level 1:  Become specialist in Abjuration, giving up a school of magic as normal.  Even if a bard or sorcerer must do this.  If already an abjurer, must give up an additional school and gain a +2 to avoid having abjurations dispelled.




Does this mean that he'll get bonus Abjuration spells known and castable, only castable, or not at all?


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## Endur (May 9, 2004)

This was something that Isida and I discussed.  Basically, we're going to fast -forward the game.  

Your characters did complete the quest to defeat Irae.  Sometime later, Lolth returns.   But that all happens in out of playing time.

Then Isida begins a new quest.  Start play time.

This avoids several issues in GM continuity, but allows the players to keep the same characters.

This also allows the Priestesses of Lolth to have full access to their clerical spells, since the game resumes after Lolth has returned.

After we resolve all of these issues, I'll work with Isida to make a transition post (what actually happened in that year you are not playing through).

Finally, some of the NPCs will be recurring in Isida's game.  i.e. NPCs that survived somehow or are undead.



			
				Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> *Cough*  Well as I'm probably not going to be able to take over where Endur left off in terms of plot and whatnot, that's why I wanted to do this.
> 
> And while you as players will be fast-forwarding a year, your characters will not.  In the interim you will be fighting the civil war, un-silencing Lolth, and some other things, but this allows me to start with a relatively clean slate in terms of both plot and characters, and I think will be less-confusing all around.
> 
> Does that make sense?


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## Pyrex (May 10, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Ok, so here's my thought.  I'm going to read through my new City of the Spider Queen module and get some ideas.  Then I believe we're just going to shift the timeline ahead a year, allowing people to get raised if necessary, allowing Lolth to un-silence herself, and allowing new characters into the fold.  Put everyone around 17th level (ECLs included) or so.  How does that sound?




Sounds reasonable to me, but let me make sure I've got this clear:

1) Standardize all PC's to ECL 17 (Lvl 15 +2 LA for Drow)

2) Standardize all PC's to 32pt-buy attributes.

Correct?

Also, while we're at it, do you want to:

3) Standardize PC wealth values.
(DMG lists 340k for ECL 17)


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 10, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Does this mean that he'll get bonus Abjuration spells known and castable, only castable, or not at all?



  You get all the benefits of a school specialization, including access and bonus spells, and all that good stuff.

Pyrex, you got it right.  Everyone goes to 17th level, use 32 point buy to make or re-tool your character, and everyone spend standard 17th level wealth (deducting current wealth of course).  If you want a little random variety into what items you get in the interim, assign me an amount of gold, perhaps with a wish list.  I'll pick/roll up some items for you.  You may get something surprising.


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## Xael (May 10, 2004)

The sword Quertus is carrying is probably worth about that 340k (no idea about actual worth).  And I've got to go through with all those friggin' scrolls again...

Quertus has also made some spells permanent on himself. Does that affect anything and how?


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## Serpenteye (May 10, 2004)

*The Basics... Does this look right?*

Human Sorcerer 6 /Incanatar (prohibited school Illusion) 8 /Archmage 3.

Str:8/-1
Dex:10/0
Con:20/+5 (14+6(item))
Int:18/+4 (14+4(item))
Wis:10/0
Cha:28/+9 (18+4(level)+6(item))

HP: 17d4+85
AC: 15, 15 flatfooted, 10 touch
Initiative: +0
BaB: +8
SR: 18
Saves: +14 Fort, +9 Ref, +18 Will.

Feats: Iron Will, Educated, Spell Focus (Evocation), Empower Spell, Spell Focus (Enchantment), Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Chain Spell.

Class Abilities Incantatrix: Send Away (Ex), See Ethereal (Su), Strike Ethereal (Su), Immune to death effects and energy drain attacks, Instant Metamagic (Su) 1/day, Improved Metamagic (Su).
Class Abilities Archmage: Arcane Reach, Mastery of Elements, Mastery of Shaping.

Skills, 120 skill points.

Bluff:...................................10+9:19
Concentration:......................21+5:26
Knowledge (Arcana):..............20+4:24
Knowledge (the Planes):..........20+4:24
Spellcraft:.............................21+4:25
Intimidate (Inc class skill):.......18+9:27
Speak Language (Draconic+Auran+Terran+Ignan+Undercommon): 10.

Languages: Common, Celestial, Abyssal, Infernal, Draconic, Auran, Terran, Ignan, Undercommon

Caster Level 17, 19 against SR.
Abjuration specialist - Illusion School prohibited.
Spells/day: 0:6+1, 1:9+1, 2:8+1, 3:8+1, 4:8+1, 5:8+1, 6:6+1, 7:6+1, 8:4+1
Spells Cast: 0:, 1:, 2:, 3:, 4:, 5:, 6:, 7:, 8:
Spells Known.
0: Acid Spray, Mage Hand, Open/Close, Prestidigitation, Detect Poison, Detect Magic, Read Magic, Mending, Message.
1: Charm Person, Chill Touch, Expeditious Retreat, Magic Missile, Shield.
2: Glitterdust, Command Undead, Rope Trick, Touch of Idiocy, Resist Energy.
3: Blink, Slow, Vampiric Touch, Magic Circle against Evil.
4: Black Tentacles, Dimension Door, Polymorph, Dimensional Anchor.
5: Baleful Polymorph, Dominate Person, Cone of Cold, Dismissal.
6: Acid Fog, Greater Dispell, True Seeing. 
7: Limited Wish, Summon Monster 7, Spell Turning.
8: Irresistible Dance, Sunburst. 

Wealth: 340'000 gp

Ring of The Unshackled (Sustenance 5000gp + Freedom of Movement 40'000gp): 45'000gp
Ring of Invisibility 20'000gp 
Lenses of Penetrating Vision (Darkvision 60ft 24'000gp + X-ray Vision 25'000gp): 49'000gp
Greater Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell 3/day: 24'500gp
Amulet of Health +6: 36'000gp
Cloak of Charisma +6: 36'000gp
Headband of Intellect +4: 16'000gp
Portable Hole: 20'000gp
Robe of the Evil Archmagi: 75'000gp (+5 ac, +4 saves, 18 SR, Spell Penetration)

Scroll: 
Mages Disjunction: 3825gp.
Clone: 3000gp -Used. lvl 16 Clone hidden in a buried stone sarcophagus in Sembia together with a pouch of spell components.

Noble Outfit*4: 100gp
11525 gp.


----------



## Xael (May 10, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Human Sorcerer 6 /Incanatar (prohibited school Illusion) 8 /Archmage 3.



*Goes to weep in the corner*


----------



## Pyrex (May 10, 2004)

Serp, becoming an Abjurer doesn't grant you an extra spell known per level, it gives you an extra spell slot per level that can only be use for an abjuration spell.

Also, even though it's unclear from Isida's writeup, I think that since you weren't already an Abjurer when you started taking levels of Incantator you have to give up two schools.


----------



## Serpenteye (May 10, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> Serp, becoming an Abjurer doesn't grant you an extra spell known per level, it gives you an extra spell slot per level that can only be use for an abjuration spell.




When I asked him about that he answered; 







			
				Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> You get all the benefits of a school specialization, including access and bonus spells, and all that good stuff.




Which I interpreted as meaning that you got an extra spell known per level: "including access...". Since Sorcerers don't usually specialize one can't make a direct comparison to how it works with spec Wizards.





			
				Pyrex said:
			
		

> Also, even though it's unclear from Isida's writeup, I think that since you weren't already an Abjurer when you started taking levels of Incantator you have to give up two schools.




I interpreted it so that you had to pick a second prohibited school only if you were already an Abjurer. Since Isida's version of the class is an adapted 3.0 version the rules for 3.0 specialization and prohibited schools should probably be applied.


----------



## Serpenteye (May 10, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> *Goes to weep in the corner*




*Goes over to pat Xael's back*

Your character's abilities are superior to mine, you have better SR, an unlimited spell selection, more skills, more feats, and you are only one level behind in reaching 9th level spells. He is a member of a superior race, surrounded by friends and family who love and respect him, while my character is an outsider who won't be regarded higher than Kilcif was (initially).


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 10, 2004)

After really looking at the party and what we have...  I'm not sure if the party needs a telepath.  (Dalamar, you where correct, one post had me saying telekinetic while the other said telepath.) And as Xael so elegant puts it, this party could really use some meat shield so maybe I should just remake Kilcif like all the older surviving players are doing…

Anyhow, I’ve been up all night so I’ll be the first to admit that my thinking might be less than sound so what does everyone else think?  Could Carcelon have done it with what was left and would she have bothered?


----------



## Xael (May 10, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> *Goes over to pat Xael's back*
> 
> Your character's abilities are superior to mine, blah, blah...



Yeah, yeah. Min-maxing time!



> ...surrounded by friends and family who love and respect him..



Just what are you smoking?  



I just noticed that Quertus (has) burned about 70 000 gold pieces on spell scrolls and scribing, and knows like 114 spells. And I still want more! God I love wizards.


----------



## Pyrex (May 10, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Anyhow, I’ve been up all night so I’ll be the first to admit that my thinking might be less than sound so what does everyone else think?  Could Carcelon have done it with what was left and would she have bothered?




I'm not clear what you are asking here, but I'll try and answer anyway. 

If it were possible, Carcelon would have asked Quertus to try and _Raise_ Kilcif after the party returned to Szith Morcane.

However, due to the manner of your death _Raise Dead_ would not be enough to restore Kilcif to life.

The party does not have access to _Ressurection_, so Kilcif would most likely remain dead.


There are still plenty of meatshield options available.  ECL 17 versions of either Trygon or Krecil would both be capable of laying down serious beatings.

Isida, I'll be offline Wed-Sun, but I'll update & repost Carcelon before I leave.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 10, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> I'm not clear what you are asking here, but I'll try and answer anyway.




No you did a good job... 



			
				Pyrex said:
			
		

> The party does not have access to _Ressurection_, so Kilcif would most likely remain dead.




Yeah figured as much...



			
				Pyrex said:
			
		

> There are still plenty of meatshield options available.  ECL 17 versions of either Trygon or Krecil would both be capable of laying down serious beatings.



Trygon was an ECL 19, but he's dead... Killed by Endur, Endur the paladin that is...  But neither he nor the others really interest me...  

So I guess the meat shields will have to come from elsewhere...


----------



## Pyrex (May 10, 2004)

There's still another option.

Just because the party can't _Ressurect_ Kilcif doesn't mean that a priest of Hruggek can't.


----------



## Serpenteye (May 10, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> Just what are you smoking?




Oh, come on. We had a nice and cozy little family, didn't we? The Matron always held Quertus in the highest regard, he was always so useful .

Or maybe that's just the sentimentality speaking.


----------



## Pyrex (May 10, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Pyrex, you got it right.  Everyone goes to 17th level, use 32 point buy to make or re-tool your character, and everyone spend standard 17th level wealth (deducting current wealth of course).  If you want a little random variety into what items you get in the interim, assign me an amount of gold, perhaps with a wish list.  I'll pick/roll up some items for you.  You may get something surprising.




Carcelon is mostly updated (still need to add skills and pick a feat, but I figure I'll wait until after the 'year in review post before doing either) and re-equipped.  I've left 50k GP open for you to fill.


----------



## Serpenteye (May 10, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> There's still another option.
> 
> Just because the party can't _Ressurect_ Kilcif doesn't mean that a priest of Hruggek can't.




I think Kilcif encountered him with the other feasting petitioners in the Abyss. I guess the God could always decide to send Kilcif back for some reason. He is one of the most powerful of his kind and maybe Hruggek needs a champion on Faerun...


----------



## Xael (May 10, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> The party does not have access to _Ressurection_, so Kilcif would most likely remain dead.



Well, since we're waiting a year and Lloth comes back, we do have access to _Resurrection_. 



And seriously, what am I going to do with the _Sword of The Dales_? The thing values somewhere near 250k I think. I could always ditch it to neares chasm of course...

And if I get to swap feats, I'd prefer to ditch _Improved Familiar _(sorry Icho), if that doesn't sound too drastic. And I'm considering that Quertus would fit better in the Lawful Evil category rather than Chaotic Evil.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 10, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> I guess the God could always decide to send Kilcif back for some reason. He is one of the most powerful of his kind and maybe Hruggek needs a champion on Faerun...




God, I couldn't imagine Hruggek's Chosen...    

... but Kilcif would lose one level for reincarnation and I could skip the next level for say two levels of that template.     (Which would need to be made)


----------



## Pyrex (May 10, 2004)

As long as you start at ECL 17 it's all good...


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 10, 2004)

Ok guys, I'm currently in my hometown and away from the vast majority of my books, so spending people's gold is going to have to wait.  I could try my hand at making a Chosen of Hruggek, but again that would have to wait.  I should be back at my appartment by Friday evening.


----------



## Serpenteye (May 10, 2004)

Does the Specialist Sorcerer get bonus spells known?


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 10, 2004)

Nope, only bonus spells per day.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 10, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> I could try my hand at making a Chosen of Hruggek, but again that would have to wait.




Ohhhh I could kiss you!    but, err you got girl germs or something. 

Anyhow I swing through the WoTC forms and see if I can find something but it's rather doubtful.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (May 10, 2004)

The Monster of Legend would seem to fit, given Hruggek's focus on sheer physical prowess, but it might be too high in LA.


----------



## Pyrex (May 11, 2004)

How much LA is the MoL template?

(oh, and just out of curiosity, what does it do?)


----------



## Endur (May 11, 2004)

I think its +7.



			
				Pyrex said:
			
		

> How much LA is the MoL template?
> 
> (oh, and just out of curiosity, what does it do?)


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (May 11, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> (oh, and just out of curiosity, what does it do?)




It gives physical stat boosts higher than any other non-epic template, and an array of possible abilities, like poison, flaiming/acid/electric blood, breath weapons, constant _spell turning_, DR, fast healing, etc.  It only gives one offensive and two defensive traits, so it's not quite as vicious as it sounds from the list.


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 11, 2004)

I don't think I'm going to use the MoL...  I'll figure something out.  I can just do a little reverse engineering on the Chosen of Mystra and Bane, throw in a little bugbear flavor, stir, bake at 400 degrees for one day, season to taste.  Hey Bro, could you send/post any info on Hruggek you have?  Thanks much.


----------



## Goddess FallenAngel (May 11, 2004)

Hey all,

It's been fun, but I think I am going to drop out of this game. Frankly, I can't see how Zieggrek would be coming back (great last post, there, Endur  ), and I am unmotivated to create a new character. That combined with severe relocation/monetary problems and current health concerns, have brought me to this decision. It sounded like fun, though.  

Have fun all, and I will probably drop in from time to time to check it out.


----------



## Dalamar (May 11, 2004)

Was nice gaming with you FallenAngel 

So I get to keep Torellan, just up him to level 17 equipment?


----------



## Serpenteye (May 11, 2004)

Bye, Goddess. And good luck with your problems.


----------



## Serpenteye (May 11, 2004)

Where is the game going to re-start? It would be good to know so that I can work it into my background.
 Also, what happened to the Graverending? The Wand of Orcus? Was everything destroyed or did the party manage to harness some of the power of the ritual for themselves? The Matron would probably have done more than simply smash it all, but maybe Narcelia values purity over power...?


----------



## Pyrex (May 11, 2004)

Hopefully that'll all come out in the 'year in review' post Endur & Isida are cooking up.


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 11, 2004)

Well, mostly Endur.  Also I'm going to make a new RG for people to post in so that you guys don't have to worry about cleaning up the old on.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 11, 2004)

Isida, to be honest I haven't found any more on Hruggek than you can't find in the M&M.    I see his chosen as being equal strong, agile, and to a less part tougher than they where before. (+4 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Con)

I see big bonus to move slightly and hide.  The only spells like abilities I see are those that can help in ambushing.


----------



## Seonaid (May 11, 2004)

I'm cool with anything. I'm happy Narcelia is going to be around, and will get her spells back! I think I'm going to basically rebuild her, keeping in mind her current stats, and the new ones. I won't change anything if I can help it, but it would be easier for me to create a character with a new level and new point-buy numbers from the ground. If I'm making that more complicated than it has to be, let me know. I have yet to go through and collate the changes I need to make anyway.

Narcelia would be concerned with power if she felt threatened by Carcelon (or anyone else). If she did feel threatened, she'd try to take the power of the Orcus (staff? wand?) for herself.

Something I would like addressed in the transition post is whether or not Narcelia gets another scourge (or her old one back), and how the power shifts in the family. Does Carcelon become the Matron? After all, she always was favored by Lolth, and Narcelia is a bit batty (and, arguably, less ambitious).

Sorry for the delay, and if there were any questions I missed, let me know.


----------



## Pyrex (May 11, 2004)

Seonaid said:
			
		

> Narcelia would be concerned with power if she felt threatened by Carcelon (or anyone else). If she did feel threatened, she'd try to take the power of the Orcus (staff? wand?) for herself.




Carcelon would try to see that the wand was destroyed (trying to sway everyone to that line of thinking by convincing them that its destruction would end Lolth's silence) rather than see it in Narcelia's hands (as Narcelia having such a powerful item would make it much harder for Carcelon to become Matron).


----------



## Pyrex (May 11, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> ...I see his chosen as being equal strong, agile, and to a less part tougher than they where before. (+4 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Con)...




How about something like this?

*Chosen of Hruggek*
+2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con
Fast Healing 1
Can cast _Enlarge Person_ (self only) at CL 5 1/day.
LA +1

The fast healing may make it just a bit too good for +1 LA, so another option would be to bump the stat boosts to +4 and make the template +2 LA.


----------



## Seonaid (May 12, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> Carcelon would try to see that the wand was destroyed (trying to sway everyone to that line of thinking by convincing them that its destruction would end Lolth's silence) rather than see it in Narcelia's hands (as Narcelia having such a powerful item would make it much harder for Carcelon to become Matron).



We could do a bunch of opposed Will rolls?  If Narcelia was aware of Carcelon's attempts, she would definitely try to take it for her own, probably by allowing Carcelon to think she has destroyed it.

It's interesting that we didn't convert before the Silence ended.


----------



## Endur (May 12, 2004)

With regards to religious conversion, please post your decision if you wanted to pursue conversion before or after the confrontation with Irae.  I will post the results of the conversion attempt.

Also, is the new Quertus going to have the Lich template?  Quertus almost certainly would have died in Castle Maerimydra (The representative of the Circle of Rust and the Worm would have slain Quertus).   

Likewise, any of the three drow priestesses that want an undead template, should be able to freely select your undead type (the risk of death in Castle Maerimydra was close to 99.99%).

I will resolve what happened to the wand in the post as well.



			
				Seonaid said:
			
		

> It's interesting that we didn't convert before the Silence ended.


----------



## Pyrex (May 12, 2004)

I'm currently operating under the assumption that Carcelon survived, didn't convert and came through with a significant dislike of undead (hence her "current" spell selection).


----------



## Seonaid (May 12, 2004)

I don't want conversion unless the rest of you (players and GM) want to head that direction. I would only convert if it came up in game, but if the players would like to go there, I would try it. Likewise taking an undead template for Narcelia.


----------



## Xael (May 12, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Also, is the new Quertus going to have the Lich template? Quertus almost certainly would have died in Castle Maerimydra (The representative of the Circle of Rust and the Worm would have slain Quertus).



I don't know. I originally planned to have him embrace Lichdom before entering Castle Maerimyda. But It would buff his ECL over 17, and put his starting wealth over 340 000. I mean, it's market price is 240 000 gold pieces... 

And don't talk dying, Quertus is pretty good at escaping.  



Personally, I think that the Lich template would work nicely with our three priestresses too.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 12, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> The fast healing may make it just a bit too good for +1 LA, so another option would be to bump the stat boosts to +4 and make the template +2 LA.




Finding LA adjustments on a template is pretty hard, and anyone on the WotC forums is really quick to point out that chosens are meant for PCs.  

There’s been three official made and a slew of homemade ones that can be found on the WotC forums.  I’ll find the thread and post a link soon.  One thing of note is that most of them come in with numerous spells like abilities and total ability adjustments around 8 to 10 and that divine rank has nothing to do with it.  

As for enlarge its really not Hruggek, I was thinking more along the lines of invisibility.

Anyhow, I'm running late for work so I'll find the stuff soon...  Works a major pain this week, I'm working from 1 am to 9 am and I'm having little to no time for the net...  

and speaking of little time SE hey I'll get a reply up as soon as I can I'm not ignoring it at all.


----------



## Serpenteye (May 12, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> and speaking of little time SE hey I'll get a reply up as soon as I can I'm not ignoring it at all.




Take your time .

--

Question: Can the feat Chain Spell be used on all spells with a ranged target of one creature, or just offensive spells?


----------



## Pyrex (May 12, 2004)

Any spell with a range greater than 'Touch' and a 'Target: One Creature' entry.

As they don't have 'Target:' entries in their description block, both 'Acid Arrow' and 'Scorching Ray' can't be used with 'Chain Spell' ('Effect: Energy Missile' and 'Effect: Ray' respectively), but 'Baleful Polymorph' works.

See you all next week, I'm off to E3.


----------



## Seonaid (May 12, 2004)

Hope you have fun at _E3_, Pyrex. ::jealous::


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 12, 2004)

Ok, I've put up the new Rogue's Gallery here:  http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1538422#post1538422

Also here are the following books available to draw items, feats, skills, spells, and PrCs (barring DM approval) out for your characters:  All core books (we are doing 3.5 yes?  If not 3.0 is cool), FRCS, Magic of Faerun, Faiths and Pantheons, Underdark, Unapproachable East, Silver Marches, Silver Marches Web Enhancement, Races of Faerun, Monsters of Faerun, Lords of Darkness, Book of Vile Darkness, Book of Exaulted Deeds (which I doubt anyone here will use, but I reserve the right to use it against you), Savage Species, Books of Eldritch Might I, II, and III, Book of Hallowed Might, Unholy Warriors Handbook and Book of the Righteous, City of the Spider Queen, all splatbooks (Sword and Fist, etc.), Relics and Rituals, Dragon magazine 277-319, Dungeon magazine 87-112, Arms and Armor, and I'll probably add a few more to the list when I get back to all of my books.

At any rate, all books are subject to the most current errata.

In addition I am allowing the Expanded Psionics Handbook with a couple changes:  I am re-introducing talents, and I am putting in Mindscapes psionic combat.  I may be adding in a few feats for the various new psionic races as well, depending on if anyone takes them.  I also may be adding in a few power from the original Psionic Handbook that were taken out of the Expanded version.  

Ok, I think that's all for now.  If you give the DM any money to spend, put it at the end of your character sheet along with a wish list, if you want.


----------



## Serpenteye (May 12, 2004)

Do we have to keep track on unexpensive spell-components?


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 12, 2004)

Ah nope, I just did that for the sample character because I'm weird like that, so don't worry about it.


----------



## Serpenteye (May 12, 2004)

That's a relief.  

Btw, the post in the Rogues Gallery is a work in progress, I'll get it into your format eventually. I'm still trying to find a good portrait for him.


----------



## Endur (May 12, 2004)

Yes, I know Quertus is good at escaping.  But I also know what was waiting in the castle.



			
				Xael said:
			
		

> And don't talk dying, Quertus is pretty good at escaping.
> 
> Personally, I think that the Lich template would work nicely with our three priestresses too.


----------



## Endur (May 13, 2004)

The issue isn't whether you want your character to become undead or not.  

The issue is that if your character entered Castle Maerimydra, your characters would certainly die in combat (its a long deadly dungeon crawl) and the party only had the magical ability to transform the slain into the undead, there was no ability to restore life.  



			
				Seonaid said:
			
		

> I don't want conversion unless the rest of you (players and GM) want to head that direction. I would only convert if it came up in game, but if the players would like to go there, I would try it. Likewise taking an undead template for Narcelia.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 13, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> The issue isn't whether you want your character to become undead or not.




I'm not trying to cause a fight, and to be honest every undead template in the book adds to the parties ELC and helps Kilcif and me, but if where not going to play out this part of the model where going to need to assume that divine intervention happened as it's not fair to anyone to simply say hey your character died... 

and live with it...    (cool face for the pun not that it was a good one.)


----------



## Xael (May 13, 2004)

Serpenteye: In 3.5 multible abilities in singe item only get their prices multiplied by 1.5, not 2.  You save money.

And you're causing me serious mental pain by leaving "Evard's" away from EBT and "Otto's" from OID.  



And Endur, seriously, I think you're overrating the (big) bad (evil) people at Castle Maerimyda a bit. There's nothing comparatable to a Balor (or two) there (IMHO) if I remember correctly. Irae is a wuss too.  And It's not like we'd have to clear the whole place in one shot.

Now, on the other hand, I don't know about your personal evil schemes (tm) though...


----------



## Serpenteye (May 13, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> Serpenteye: In 3.5 multible abilities in singe item only get their prices multiplied by 1.5, not 2.  You save money.




Is the total value of the item multiplied with 1.5, or only the cheaper parts?



			
				Xael said:
			
		

> And you're causing me serious mental pain by leaving "Evard's" away from EBT and "Otto's" from OID.




That's what happens when I use the SRD for reference- material. (I don't even own the core books )


----------



## Endur (May 13, 2004)

Well, that's because you overlooked somebody in the module.  I don't want to give hints, but there is somebody (not on the last page) who is far more powerful than a Balor.  

I went and made up the whole Talosian council of Liches, just because I couldn't see any other explanation for what this incredibly powerful (54 hit dice, DC 35? Area Death Effect, Immunity to Magic) individual was doing hanging around in Irae's castle.  



			
				Xael said:
			
		

> And Endur, seriously, I think you're overrating the (big) bad (evil) people at Castle Maerimyda a bit. There's nothing comparatable to a Balor (or two) there (IMHO) if I remember correctly. Irae is a wuss too.  And It's not like we'd have to clear the whole place in one shot.
> 
> Now, on the other hand, I don't know about your personal evil schemes (tm) though...


----------



## Serpenteye (May 13, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Well, that's because you overlooked somebody in the module.  I don't want to give hints, but there is somebody (not on the last page) who is far more powerful than a Balor.
> 
> I went and made up the whole Talosian council of Liches, just because I couldn't see any other explanation for what this incredibly powerful (54 hit dice, DC 35? Area Death Effect, Immunity to Magic) individual was doing hanging around in Irae's castle.




I don't own the module, but I have read GFunk's story Hour (an excellent read btw) and I'm guessing you're talking about the temple itself (which is really more of a hazard than an opponent).


----------



## Endur (May 13, 2004)

My point was that if the party wished to prosecute the war against Irae, they would succeed.  But there would be a price; it would not be free.

Likewise, if you try to convert to another religion, there would be a price, it would not be free.  

That was my point.  Goals can be accomplished, but there is a price.

With regards to your point, Divine Intervention would mean that some other party of heroes would defeat the forces of evil in Maerimydra while the surviving drow have other non-Maerimydra adventures in the down year.



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> I'm not trying to cause a fight, and to be honest every undead template in the book adds to the parties ELC and helps Kilcif and me, but if where not going to play out this part of the model where going to need to assume that divine intervention happened as it's not fair to anyone to simply say hey your character died...
> 
> and live with it...    (cool face for the pun not that it was a good one.)


----------



## Xael (May 13, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Is the total value of the item multiplied with 1.5, or only the cheaper parts?



Cheaper parts.



> That's what happens when I use the SRD for reference- material. (I don't even own the core books )



Ah. Well that explains it.



			
				Endur said:
			
		

> Well, that's because you overlooked somebody in the module.



Oh, now I found him. He's a wuss.  Ok, seriously, if we use "Duhh, must enter close combat..." -rating tactics, then yeah, he's pretty much impossible. I don't see what the problem is with him. He's got some *serious* drawbacks compared to us. He'd only slow us down a bit.

Torellan could almost kill him alone (if you convert his DR to 3.5, and even without that) with a little planning.


----------



## Xael (May 13, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> I don't own the module, but I have read GFunk's story Hour (an excellent read btw) and I'm guessing you're talking about the temple itself (which is really more of a hazard than an opponent).



He's not.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 13, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> My point was that if the party wished to prosecute the war against Irae, they would succeed.  But there would be a price; it would not be free.




And my point was simply that you couldn’t assume that they all died.  They are smart players, and have always been resourceful enough to find someone else to do the dangerous work that they need done.

So I can see the party living and all of there hired meatshield dying, it might not be realistic, but you cannot say to someone “Hey you character is dead, simply cause I say you have no chance to survive.”  (Though technically as a DM you could but I think you would very quickly run out of players.)

It isn’t fair, and it isn’t right.

Serpenteye, sorry about the lack of a post, I’ll fix it if the night stays calm or in the morning after work.  Lucky this is the last night for this crap.


----------



## Serpenteye (May 13, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> He's not.




Then what is it? (Spoil me )


----------



## Xael (May 13, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Then what is it? (Spoil me )



Spoiler: Some kind of a Giga Iron Golem.


----------



## Serpenteye (May 13, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> Spoiler: Some kind of a Giga Iron Golem.




Oh. Right, there's probably a way to bypass or incapacitate it without going into melee. A couple of Wall spells or a Forcecage could probably cut it off from the party while you dealt with more flexible opponents.


----------



## Seonaid (May 14, 2004)

Ok, team, what do you all think? Narcelia will go undead if you all want to go that route. I don't have a preference. Also, Narcelia will try conversion if you all want to go that route (though Pyrex would have the biggest influence in that decision). I don't have a preference there either. If you guys don't give me anything, I'll just say what Pyrex said about Carcelon: Narcelia is alive and still a cleric of Lolth.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (May 14, 2004)

I'm doing a bit of the tagalong as well; if Tierak becomes undead or converts, she's at a major disadvantage when trying to retain control of the tattered remnants of her House against any living Lolth clerics.


----------



## Endur (May 14, 2004)

Right, but then the history post will basically say that someone else invaded Castle Maerimydra and slew Irae's minions while the party stayed safe and sound.  



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> So I can see the party living and all of there hired meatshield dying, it might not be realistic, but you cannot say to someone “Hey you character is dead, simply cause I say you have no chance to survive.”  (Though technically as a DM you could but I think you would very quickly run out of players.)


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 14, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Right, but then the history post will basically say that someone else invaded Castle Maerimydra and slew Irae's minions while the party stayed safe and sound.




Ah more power to them..   Honestly the party before hand didn't have any way to make more powerful undead, and to give in vampirism would technically make Torrellan the leader.  So how do they come across these other forums?


----------



## Serpenteye (May 14, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Right, but then the history post will basically say that someone else invaded Castle Maerimydra and slew Irae's minions while the party stayed safe and sound.




I agree that it would be nearly impossible for the party to succeed unless the clerics of Lolth converted. We have been terribly inefficient in the past and I see no reason why that would change without drastic measures being taken. If my new character would have joined them in Maerimydra maybe that would have made some difference, but with three characters not carrying their own weight and still counting against the EL of their opponents it's doubtful.

Off course, under a new DM maybe Kurgoth would have come to his senses and used his superhuman intelligence and wisdom to come to the realisation that the party could actually make a useful ally (without the need for making draconian demands on all their souls). Chaotic Evil does not equal stupid, it is the most pragmatic of alignments (at least in the short term). He would have betrayed them as soon as their victory against Irae was inevitable, but the party would expect it and have taken measures to defend themselves or betray him first. In the stalemate between Irae and Kurgoth the party should have been able to tip the scales to their own favour.

There are many other groups in the realms who would prefer if the Graverending never took place and who could have been useful tools for the party.


----------



## Serpenteye (May 14, 2004)

I've been considering making some changes to my character, to make it more appealing to role play. The Shadow Adept sounds like a really cool class, could anyone tell me what requirements and features it gets?


----------



## Uriel (May 14, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Also here are the following books available to draw items, feats, skills, spells, and PrCs (barring DM approval) out for your characters:  All core books (we are doing 3.5 yes?  If not 3.0 is cool), FRCS, Magic of Faerun, Faiths and Pantheons, Underdark, Unapproachable East, Silver Marches, Silver Marches Web Enhancement, Races of Faerun, Monsters of Faerun, Lords of Darkness, Book of Vile Darkness, Book of Exaulted Deeds (which I doubt anyone here will use, but I reserve the right to use it against you), Savage Species, Books of Eldritch Might I, II, and III, Book of Hallowed Might, Unholy Warriors Handbook and Book of the Righteous, City of the Spider Queen, all splatbooks (Sword and Fist, etc.), Relics and Rituals, Dragon magazine 277-319, Dungeon magazine 87-112, Arms and Armor, and I'll probably add a few more to the list when I get back to all of my books.
> 
> At any rate, all books are subject to the most current errata.




Are the Complete Warrior and Unearthed Arcana in there somewhere?
If not, my character concept is pretty much shot (not whining, just wondering...).

I haven't checked this one for a few days, but questions (Yes, I could read through, but there is a lot of info...)

Starting ECL for new characters? 
Money?


----------



## Serpenteye (May 14, 2004)

Uriel said:
			
		

> Starting ECL for new characters?
> Money?




17
340'000


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 14, 2004)

Uriel, as I do not have Complete Warrior or Unearthed Arcana, I cannot allow material from those books.  Sorry.  

Oh, I'm also going to add Arms and Equipment Guide and Manual of the Planes to the available books.  In addition, if any item, feat, spell, or what-have-you comes from outside the core rule books, please put a note as to the source and page number where it can be found.  Thank you.


----------



## Uriel (May 14, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Uriel, as I do not have Complete Warrior or Unearthed Arcana, I cannot allow material from those books.  Sorry.
> 
> Oh, I'm also going to add Arms and Equipment Guide and Manual of the Planes to the available books.  In addition, if any item, feat, spell, or what-have-you comes from outside the core rule books, please put a note as to the source and page number where it can be found.  Thank you.





That is understandable.

I was going to make a Master Thrower (Complete Warrior), reinvent my fave 1st ed character (drow dagger throwing specialist).

I think I'll bow out of this one, then.

Have fun all.

Edit:Alternately, I could just summarize/email you the info, as it is only a 5 level Prc Class.


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 14, 2004)

Summarizing and e-mailing can be done.  barrow@iastate.edu


----------



## Dalamar (May 15, 2004)

How do we count HP?

Is the following item, from Player's Guide to Faerûn, allowed: 
*Glove of Taarnahm the Vigilant:* This chainmail gaunlet allows the wielder to hurl any melee weapon he carries as though it had the _throwing_ and _returning_ special abilities.
Moderate Transmutation; CL 7; Craft Wondrous Item, _magic stone_, _telekinesis_; Price 10,000gp


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 15, 2004)

Hit points are max at first level (as always) plus Con and all that, 75% of max plus Con thereafter.  If you have a race with an ECL (such as drow) you get d8 hit points per ECL level, plus Con.  The d8 would be come your first level, in effect, just as a note.  This does not count against your Hit Dice, and you gain no feats or spells or whatnot, this just gives you some extra hp.  

Those gloves are fine Dalamar.


----------



## Endur (May 15, 2004)

Sadly, Kurgoth does not have superhuman intelligence and wisdom.  Badrazel did, but the module specifically noted that he would fight until knocked below 20 hit points.  



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Off course, under a new DM maybe Kurgoth would have come to his senses and used his superhuman intelligence and wisdom to come to the realisation that the party could actually make a useful ally (without the need for making draconian demands on all their souls). Chaotic Evil does not equal stupid, it is the most pragmatic of alignments (at least in the short term). He would have betrayed them as soon as their victory against Irae was inevitable, but the party would expect it and have taken measures to defend themselves or betray him first. In the stalemate between Irae and Kurgoth the party should have been able to tip the scales to their own favour.


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 15, 2004)

Here's my first stab at it:

*Chosen of Hruggek*
+4 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Con
*Chosen spell-like abilities:*  At will - _invisibility_,
2/day - _true strike_, 1/day - _improved invisibility_ (1/2 hour duration), _displacement_ (7 round duration).
*Impromptu Sneak Attack:*   Can make any melee attack a sneak attack 2/day at +1d6 sneak attack damage.  This sneak attack damage stacks with any other sneak attack damage the Chosen may have already or gain in the future.
*LA:*  +4

This is just a first attempt, so this can be fine-tuned.  What do you think, Bro?


----------



## Dalamar (May 15, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> you get d8 hit points per ECL level, plus Con.  The d8 would be come your first level, in effect, just as a note.



So these turn into d12s for undead, correct?


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 15, 2004)

Um, nope.  The d12s you get as an undead do not change these special hit point dice.  These ECL hit points are unaffected by anything except your Con (or lack thereof  ).


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 15, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> This is just a first attempt, so this can be fine-tuned.  What do you think, Bro?




Isida, that looks impressive and I see no need for any changes.  

I am curious of something though when the Chosen makes an Impromptu Sneak Attack does it carry only the 1d6 for this attack or does it also carry full weight of his sneak attack?

edit:  Oh yeah I'm all in favor of templates for everyone now.


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 15, 2004)

If the Chosen has sneak attack from another source, it stacks with the +1d6 Impromptu sneak attack.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 15, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> If the Chosen has sneak attack from another source, it stacks with the +1d6 Impromptu sneak attack.




Cool, last question, can the chosen use this Impromptu sneak attack on a creature that is normally immune to them?  Undead or construct?


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 15, 2004)

Nope, all the other restrictions for sneak attack apply.  I'm doing that for the reason that I see most Chosen as probably being the leaders of their tribes, and thus would be using that ability to either hunt food or slay interlopers, both of which would be living.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 15, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Nope,




Not what I was hoping for but I would hardly call that a showstopper as the reasoning behind it is sound.


----------



## Xael (May 15, 2004)

Some questions:

1. Quertus has made some spells permanent on himself. Does this affect anything and how? He also has item creation feats.

2. Still no idea about the value of the _Sword of The Dales_. It's +3 Longsword, _Water Breathing_ 1/day, Glows blue light, _Knock_ on chains and manacles within 30’, command word “Merrydale”, and works as a Lich's Phylactery (no soul at the moment). Probably rather too valuable for Quertus.

3. I suppose that Quertus has had enough time to copy all his spells to the _Boccob's_(/Mystra's) _Blessed Book_ and sell the now useless other spellbooks.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 15, 2004)

heh, I lied I have one more question...  Should I drop the whole template on Kilcif or do you want to do some sort of progression on him?

He's already lost one level for dying, the party gained a level, so he would be 2 levels ahead of most of the group.


----------



## Xael (May 15, 2004)

Btw, Quertus now has that _Mind Blank_ for Kilcif.


----------



## Endur (May 15, 2004)

Based on player feedback, I'm contemplating making a history post where the party opted to live and did not go to Maerimydra.  Instead, the party allowed Kurogth, Irae, and some heroes from the surface world to slay each other in battle.

This, incidentally, also explains why the party is only ECL 17, since the party probably would have gone over ECL 20, had they fought their way through Castle Maerimydra.

The party hid out while Quertus studied magic.  Eventually, Lolth returned and the adventure continues.


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 15, 2004)

Well, considering how high level the party is/wants to be, do we want to raise the ECL of everyone a little?  I'm pretty much expecting this to go into Epic levels at any rate.  And that would solve a lot of the problems we've been having we various templates and whatnot.  Should we just make it 20 and call it square?  That would give everyone a total amount of gear worth 760,000gp.

As for permanent spells...  If we decide to go with the whole 20th level thing, let's say that everyone has 198,000 xp, and you can deduct the XP cost for permanent spells, magic items you create, and whatnot from that 8,000 "extra" xp.  

How would that work for everyone?

As for the _Sword of the Dales_
+3 longsword, +18,315gp
_water breathing_ 1/day, +16,000gp (taken from intelligent item greater power as 1/day 3rd level spell)
_knock_ in 30 ft. radius, +60,000gp (2nd level spell applied to radius, taken from special purpose item dedicated powers table)
Lich's phylactery, 120,000gp and 4,800xp (taken from page 168 of 3.5 MM, lich entry)

Total cost of _Sword of the Dales_ - 214,315gp.


----------



## Uriel (May 15, 2004)

17,20, makes little difference to me. I can do 20th easily enough...


----------



## Xael (May 15, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> How would that work for everyone?



*Dies*


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 15, 2004)

Uriel, did you e-mail me the PrC you were going to?  I may be deleted it by accident, make sure the subject is something really obvious, because I get so much spam it isn't funny so I tend to delete anything I don't immediately recognize.


----------



## Dalamar (May 15, 2004)

Those 420 thousand gps sure sound tempting (that's the only thing Torellan will gain when we go from ECL 17 to 20, since he is already ECL 22).

Edit - You wouldn't agree, Isida, that a vampiric drow isn't exactly worth +10 LA, would you?
And do the LA-HD affect things like the number of HD that a vampire can have under it (which a total worth of HDs equal to their own HDx2), and the DCs of special abilities like a vampire's Dominate, which is 10 +1/2 level+Cha mod?


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 15, 2004)

*Wonders why Xael is dying...*


----------



## Dalamar (May 15, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> *Wonders why Xael is dying...*



 Because he's becoming a lich


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 15, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> *Wonders why Xael is dying...*



weak heart or lichhood...


----------



## Xael (May 15, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> *Wonders why Xael is dying...*



*Makes rude gesture at random Balor* "I have the powah!"

 Inside joke.

But that doesn't solve the when-Lichdom problem. Quertus would be ECL 21 even if he would become Lich now. And because he's carrying phylactery already...

I'm just min-maxing here, never mind...


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 15, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> I'm just min-maxing here, never mind...




You lose a level in death accoding to Endur old ruling.


----------



## Xael (May 15, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> You lose a level in death accoding to Endur old ruling.



That creates an interesting situation with MM btw.

And one needs to be at least 5HD before one can become a vampire. But if 5HD character/NPC is vampirized, he would by that rule become 4HD, and would thus would be vampire spawn.

:\


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 15, 2004)

What we have here is a conundrum.


----------



## Dalamar (May 15, 2004)

So Torellan can have his one missing level?


----------



## Xael (May 15, 2004)

Solution:

*Throws the _Sword of The Dales_ to nearest bottomless pit*

Problem solved.


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 15, 2004)

Or you could give it to some young adventurer and watch with unvarnished delight from your _scrying_ mirror as everyone tries to kill him and take it from him.


----------



## Xael (May 15, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Or you could give it to some young adventurer and watch with unvarnished delight from your _scrying_ mirror as everyone tries to kill him and take it from him.



What do you mean *try *to kill him? They would. But then I'd just have to scry the killer instead.

Nice idea though.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 15, 2004)

Xael, if you don't mind me asking what's up with the revolving door of avatar of late?


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 15, 2004)

Bro, as we already have a ECL 22 vampire in the party an ECL 21 Chosen bugbear isn't going to disrupt the balance that much more.  Besides, your wealth should all be the same.  And I'm going to take that into account when choosing enemies.  MWHAHAHA!!!


----------



## Seonaid (May 16, 2004)

I think I'm going to hold off on my character until Endur's post. I don't think it will affect much of anything, but just in case I want to do anything different, I will. Should I assume that Narcelia lost the value of all of her equipment and gold (since it was taken by the Illithids or washed away)?


> House Insignia: Levitate & Message 3/day each
> 
> Boots of Elvenkind: +10 Move Silently. 1#
> 
> ...



The Carpet of Flying was NOT with her when she got washed away, so I assume someone in the party has it somewhere (and will give it to Narcelia when the party's regrouping). Does Narcelia get a scourge to replace the one she loses (if she does not find it)? That, hopefully, will be answered in the post also.

I do not have anything Epic in my possession, so once we hit that, I'm going to be lost (sort of). Also, I don't have very many non-core books, so if there is anything useful in splatbooks, etc., feel free to let me know (feats, skills, languages, equipment, etc.).


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 16, 2004)

Seonaid said:
			
		

> I don't have very many non-core books, so if there is anything useful in splatbooks, etc., feel free to let me know (feats, skills, languages, equipment, etc.).




Hey I have a few non-core books and I'm more than willing to look through them for non-normal feats.   The link in the signature is mostly, but sadly, out of date so let me know. 

If your looking for epic feats I suggest the SRD as the EPH was added a few mounts ago...  Though being a drow you still have a few levels to worry about before you can get any of them.   (CL 21)

As for epic level equipment...  Well that not a true worry till you reach level 25 or so cause the cost of magic sky rockets.


----------



## Uriel (May 16, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Uriel, did you e-mail me the PrC you were going to?  I may be deleted it by accident, make sure the subject is something really obvious, because I get so much spam it isn't funny so I tend to delete anything I don't immediately recognize.





Sorry, not yet.
I worked until 6am, slept and got up just before my '17 or 20 is OK' post.
I am going to be running off to work again (I work in a Nightclub) very shortly, but I will either have it to you after work tonight or Sunday night, if that is OK.

-Uriel

PS: Subject Line will be 'Uriel from ENWorld here, Master thrower PrC'


----------



## Endur (May 16, 2004)

For the re-build, since it takes place a year later, you can have your full level worth of wealth.  With regards to Narcelia's specific items, you should assume they were all lost (including the carpet which was lost when the Matron was slain).  However, you could certainly get another carpet to replace the lost one, or any other magic item you want.



			
				Seonaid said:
			
		

> I think I'm going to hold off on my character until Endur's post. I don't think it will affect much of anything, but just in case I want to do anything different, I will. Should I assume that Narcelia lost the value of all of her equipment and gold (since it was taken by the Illithids or washed away)?


----------



## Endur (May 16, 2004)

There are no rules for what happens when PCs become undead.  So I made a interpretation.  The new gm is not bound by my interpretations.  



			
				Xael said:
			
		

> That creates an interesting situation with MM btw.
> And one needs to be at least 5HD before one can become a vampire. But if 5HD character/NPC is vampirized, he would by that rule become 4HD, and would thus would be vampire spawn.
> :\


----------



## Xael (May 16, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Xael, if you don't mind me asking what's up with the revolving door of avatar of late?



Err... What? Me no understand. You mean the fact that I'm changing it frequently or something?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 16, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> Err... What? Me no understand.



Yes you do. 


			
				Xael said:
			
		

> You mean the fact that I'm changing it frequently or something?



Yes.


----------



## Xael (May 16, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Bro, as we already have a ECL 22 vampire in the party an ECL 21 Chosen bugbear isn't going to disrupt the balance that much more. Besides, your wealth should all be the same.



What about ECL 24 Lich?


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 16, 2004)

ECL 24 lich...nope.  I'm allowing the ECL 22 vampire because he was here when I got here, and the ECL 21 bugbear won't tip the balance too much.  If someone has a template that pushes them over to 21, I won't scream much.


----------



## Xael (May 16, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Yes you do.



Good then.



> Yes.



If you're referring to the fact that this is my third avatar in a month, I just found this (the most cute one) very recently. And I can't resist cuteness.

If you're referring to me changing this avatar at least three times, I was just trying to get it look as good as possible. The first one was too blurry, second one too small, and this one seems to be okay.


----------



## Xael (May 16, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> ECL 24 lich...nope. I'm allowing the ECL 22 vampire because he was here when I got here, and the ECL 21 bugbear won't tip the balance too much. If someone has a template that pushes them over to 21, I won't scream much.



I was pretty much joking. That's why the easiest solution for me is to get rid of the sword-phylactery. There would be something seriously wrong with carrying that phylactery around when one could just become a Lich anytime. And I want those damn 9th level spells goddamnit.

Bye bye, sword.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 16, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> If you're referring to the fact that this is my third avatar in a month, I just found this (the most cute one) very recently. And I can't resist cuteness.




Errrr, okay.  I believe in the same thing if you check out my good ole avatar.  



			
				Xael said:
			
		

> If you're referring to me changing this avatar at least three times, I was just trying to get it look as good as possible. The first one was too blurry, second one too small, and this one seems to be okay.



cool, I'm glad you got it to the way you like it.   If you need more help point me in the direction of the original via a link, shot it to me in an email, or hit me up in chat. 

BTW: I'm not that observant and I consider myself lucky to see the changes in complete different avatars and not very minor ones like size and blurriness.


----------



## Xael (May 16, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Errrr, okay. I believe in the same thing if you check out my good ole avatar.



Indeed.  



> cool, I'm glad you got it to the way you like it.  If you need more help point me in the direction of the original via a link, shot it to me in an email, or hit me up in chat.



My little sister is picture-manipulating master of doom (tm) so no need for that, but thanks for the offer.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 16, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> Indeed.




I meant that mainly as a joke... but he's got fur and still has two full ear so I guess he isn't all that bad.  



			
				Xael said:
			
		

> My little sister is picture-manipulating master of doom (tm) so no need for that, but thanks for the offer.



Well, that's an impressive title, and I'm just “good” enough to be dangerous so I’ll remember her the next time I need assistance.


----------



## Dalamar (May 16, 2004)

So, did we change to ECL 20? 'Cause if we did, I'll start piling up that treasure


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 16, 2004)

Yes, we changed the ECL to 20.  Please proceed to go hog wild.

However, please do not make the DM cry with feat/template/spell/item combos.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 16, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> *Chosen of Hruggek*
> +4 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Con
> *Chosen spell-like abilities:*  At will - _invisibility_,
> 2/day - _true strike_, 1/day - _improved invisibility_ (1/2 hour duration), _displacement_ (7 round duration).
> ...




Hey I do have some suggestions after all...  Nothing too greedy, or well too greedy by bugbear standards. 

*Immunities:* Aging, Poison

Notes: Mystra's Chosen do not age, and Bane's does not psychical age. (much like the druid power) Based upon the rather short lifespan of bugbears, Mongoose Pub's Slayer’s guide put them down for only a few decades but at the same time this "book" isn't worth the paper it’s written on.  Anyhow, I think it's safe to assume that Hruggek would go full out with the does not age or he/she is going to spend a whole lot of time looking for a new chosen.

Poison is there for the simple fact that bugbears are indeed chaotic, greedy, and with no qualms with backstabbing one another but for another bugbear to try and pound a chosen into the ground is unlikely so poison becomes an interesting and ideal way to get rid of an obstacle.

*Damage Resistance:* 5/Magic

Notes: Most of the Chosen Templates I have seen have some degree of DR, of course there not official, Mystra doesn't but Bane has DR 10/Magic.  The other official Chosen template is lost to me somewhere on the WotC website...  I've seen it, use to have a link to it but I'm not having any luck now.


----------



## Uriel (May 16, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> Indeed.
> 
> 
> My little sister is picture-manipulating master of doom (tm) so no need for that, but thanks for the offer.




I remember the Drow pic that your little sister did, i loved that one. Tongue sticking out and all...

Isn't she really young? I remember you saying that she was 12 or something and was going to do a web comic (which is impressive at that age).
I might be totally wrong, btw...


-Uriel


----------



## Uriel (May 16, 2004)

My character was (as in the original concept, long before Templates, being 1st ed and all...) essentially a half-Fiend. 
a Bastard son of Graz'zt...

Can I have the 1/2 Fiend template added?  I don't mind if I was ECL 20 and didn't get to level for a bit (like our bloodsucking vamp boy...).

Or not, I'm pretty easy.

Funny, this character was trying to kill of Lolth way,way back, so that Daddy could take over her Realms in the Abyss. Odd that he would be involved in the CotSQ adventure trying to save her...


----------



## Xael (May 16, 2004)

Uriel said:
			
		

> I remember the Drow pic that your little sister did, i loved that one. Tongue sticking out and all...



You should see the big version. I just can't find it at the moment. She seems to enjoy drawing parody/chibi versions of me and my characters.  The chibi-drow is my Chaotic Neutral badass drow wizard character... :\ 

And she can draw a lot better btw, that's just a joke picture.

EDIT: Found the picture.



> Isn't she really young?



She just turned 16. So pretty young, yeah.



> ...and was going to do a web comic (which is impressive at that age).
> I might be totally wrong, btw...



You're remembering this wrong. She hasn't planned a webcomic (to my knowledge at least).


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 16, 2004)

Bro - I'm cool with those addition to the Chosen template.

Uriel - If you want to be a half-fiend, you go ahead and do whatever your little evil heart desires.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 16, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Bro - I'm cool with those addition to the Chosen template.




Sweet. 



			
				Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Yes, we changed the ECL to 20.  Please proceed to go hog wild.




you sure about that? 



			
				Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> However, please do not make the DM cry with feat/template/spell/item combos.



Well I hate to see anyone cry, especially woman, so what’s the stance of spending a few months with a couple of must read tomes and manuals?


----------



## Xael (May 16, 2004)

Quertus is almost ready. I still need to burn rest of his XP and GP to scribing scrolls and check everything again.

I have used some spells from outside the core books (still on your list though), will list these and ask for permission to use them soonish.

Btw, anybody want to buy a _Clone_ of himself? Costs 1000gp.  




			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Well I hate to see anyone cry, especially woman, so what’s the stance of spending a few months with a couple of must read tomes and manuals?



Well, Dalamar bought two tomes and I bought one, so I sure hope that they don't cause problems.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 16, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> Well, Dalamar bought two tomes and I bought one, so I sure hope that they don't cause problems.




 I guess I should have went and looked...  looks like Kilcif will be having a 30 + strength before magical enchantments.


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 16, 2004)

Woot.  Well, you guys have a year, and according to the City of the Spider Queen 10th-level characters could go to being 18th-level is under three months, so gaining a few levels and spending a month or two reading some tomes and manuals during a year would be fine.


----------



## Xael (May 16, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> I guess I should have went and looked... looks like Kilcif will be having a 30 + strength before magical enchantments.



Quertus has strength of 8.   Though he has intelligence of 35 to compensate. And I actually had an extra slot for Kilcif's daily _Mind Blank_.

Torellan will have 40 dexterity so he wins though...


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 16, 2004)

DM:  Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon.
Players: ...
DM:  You all die.  
Players:  ...
DM:  I win.

~~~

The above amusing exchange is brought to you by Isida, ripped off from the sig of Fixxer of the WotC boards, where the creature in question was a mind flayer.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 16, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> Quertus has strength of 8.   Though he has intelligence of 35 to compensate. And I actually had an extra slot for Kilcif's daily _Mind Blank_.



That works for me, but I suspect that Kilcif will not be so secatable this time. 



			
				Xael said:
			
		

> Torellan will have 40 dexterity so he wins though...



That's just insane!   but when you only have 5 abilites it makes it alot easier for such things.  

Kilcif's stats are all up across the board, his charisma is even respectable.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 16, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> DM:  Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon.




I don't find that nearly as aumming as you seem to.  

I got a question for you...  I know you don't have it but the Player's Guide to the Faerûn, has expanded upon regional feats to include bugbears...  Is there any chance for some love if I email them to you? 

Also you said that you would be using PrC and feats to the latest arcana...  There a few things that I'm interested in that have been reprinted in the Complete Warrior, or the above mentioned Player's Guide to the Faerûn so do you want me to email them to you, also?


----------



## Xael (May 16, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> That works for me, but I suspect that Kilcif will not be so secatable this time.



Maybe, but he'll still probably have the worst will save of the party. So it's better to prepare for the worst. Besides, Kilcif just basically screams "Dominate me!" With good luck, our enemies will waste a round trying to Dominate him.


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 16, 2004)

If you want something from a book I don't have, e-mail me it and I'll look it over.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 16, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> If you want something from a book I don't have, e-mail me it and I'll look it over.





Cool, does anyone in the rest of the part have issues with the Frenzy Berserker PrC?


----------



## Dalamar (May 16, 2004)

Going for staying-power, are we?


----------



## Serpenteye (May 16, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Cool, does anyone in the rest of the part have issues with the Frenzy Berserker PrC?




Not at all, but if he attacks my character they'll have to scrape Kilcif off the walls. There are so many ways I could kill him...


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 16, 2004)

Also guys, I'd like to repeat if you use anything from any other source than the core, please put the book and page number where it's from so I can reference it properly.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 16, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Not at all, but if he attacks my character they'll have to scrape Kilcif off the walls. There are so many ways I could kill him...



I mean it as a joke to be honest I'm not seeing to many fights lasting long enough to where he would be berserking through most of the group.


----------



## Serpenteye (May 16, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Also guys, I'd like to repeat if you use anything from any other source than the core, please put the book and page number where it's from so I can reference it properly.




This spell is all the non-core material I am using for my character. I'm not quite sure which book it is from, but it's one of the earlier 3,0 splat-books. It's useful, but at our current levels hardly broken.

Brutal Seething Surge
Evocation [Acid]
Level: Wiz/Sor 3
Components: S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature or object touched
Duration: Permanent until
discharged
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial
Spell Resistance: Yes
By welling up corrosive power
within your hand, you turn yourself
into a powerful weapon, capable of a
vicious touch attack. Your touch
inflicts 1d8 points of acid damage,
plus 1 point per level. Further, the
victim must make a Fortitude saving
throw or become dazed for 1d3
rounds (subject can take no actions
other than self-defense). You can
make a total of one successful touch
attack per level (successful in that
you touch the subject—not
dependent upon actually inflicting
damage or dazing him). Of course,
you’re still limited by your own total
number of attacks per round.


----------



## Serpenteye (May 16, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> I mean it as a joke to be honest I'm not seeing to many fights lasting long enough to where he would be breakering through most of the group.




And I was quite serious . I've actually considered making a Frenzied Berserker Half-fiend Troll (one or two levels of troll from Savage Species). He would be nearly unkillable in combat and when his frenzy ended he would simply go to sleep and slowly regenerate his wounds. Unless the whole party dies or flees he would be fairly safe...
But I'd rather play a spellcaster.


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 16, 2004)

I'm cool with Brutal Seething Surge, adding the caveat that your touch discharges with any creature you touch, so if you run out of enemies to touch you better have a long-suffering familiar handy or something.


----------



## Xael (May 16, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> I'm cool with Brutal Seething Surge, adding the caveat that your touch discharges with any creature you touch, so if you run out of enemies to touch you better have a long-suffering familiar handy or something.



Torellan?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 16, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> And I was quite serious .




Well I got a single level I'm unsure what to do with so maybe I'll look into it.


----------



## Dalamar (May 16, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> I'm cool with Brutal Seething Surge, adding the caveat that your touch discharges with any creature you touch, so if you run out of enemies to touch you better have a long-suffering familiar handy or something.



 "It burnses us!"


----------



## Dalamar (May 16, 2004)

Meant to ask this for a while. Do the LA-bestowed hit dice affect stuff like how many HD of spawn a vampire can control (which is twice own HD), and the save DC of abilities like Dominate (DC 10+1/2 HD+Cha mod)?


----------



## Serpenteye (May 16, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> I'm cool with Brutal Seething Surge, adding the caveat that your touch discharges with any creature you touch, so if you run out of enemies to touch you better have a long-suffering familiar handy or something.




So it can only affect creatures, not objects?

If it's ok I'm picking up Simbuls Spell Trigger as a 9th lvl spell, from Magic of Faerun.


----------



## Serpenteye (May 16, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Well I got a single level I'm unsure what to do with so maybe I'll look into it.




You really need at least 4 levels (to get Deathless Frenzy), it's probably worth it to make some retrocative changes.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 16, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> You really need at least 4 levels (to get Deathless Frenzy), it's probably worth it to make some retroactive changes.



True enough... I'm not really sure how much retro building I want to do but maybe I can swing it.  I'm actually looking at the divine champion PrC also.


----------



## Dalamar (May 17, 2004)

I'm currently working on making alternate versions of Torellan that keep the basic theme of the character, warrior/wizard, but are otherwise pretty much complete rewrites of his abilities. The versions I'm making are a hexblade (core class from Complete Warrior, is to sorcerer what paladin is to cleric) and psychic warrior (stretching the definition of warrior/wizard, but still).
Is this level of rewriting okay if I still keep my number of levels the same?


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 17, 2004)

I say creaturers for Brutal Seething Surge because it mentions stunning creatures and all that good stuff.  Besides, there are several other spells you can use to destroy objects.  I'm cool with Simbul's Spell Trigger as well.


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 17, 2004)

Dalamar - Well, as the Complete Warrior is not a book I own you're going to have to e-mail me all of the levels of abilities for that class (including saves and whatnot, the whole nine yards).  

And as for your psychic warrior levels, do you want to use the Psionics Handbook or the Expanded Psionics Handbook?  Either way I have some modifications I want to make to them.  Do you have Mindscapes?

I'm cool with the re-write as long as the levels are the same.  If you can get the ECL down a bit in there that would be fine, but if not I'll go with the ECL 22.


----------



## Dalamar (May 17, 2004)

Expanded PsiHB, of course. There are just two reasons to use the non-expanded version, and those are weapon specialization and Tumble as a class skill, which I don't consider worth losing all the stuff that the expanded version has.

Unfortunately I don't have Mindscapes. I'll e-mail that hexblade write-up right now.


----------



## Dalamar (May 17, 2004)

Hexblade sent


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 17, 2004)

Don't worry about Mindscapes, I can explain that to you hear later.  It is essentially a much simplified method of mental combat that actually gives you some tangible benefits in combat.  It is written by Bruce Cordell and published by Malhavoc Press (you can get it as a PDF for not a lot of cash, if you so desire).  I'd also like to reintroduce talents, as non-augmentable simple little tricks that psychic people can do to make their lives a little more interesting.


----------



## Dalamar (May 17, 2004)

Poor students don't have Visas 
I've been meaning to talk to my bank and ask if PayPal works with my account, that'd allow me to do some .pdf shopping.


----------



## Dalamar (May 17, 2004)

I just checked, my hexblade rendition of Torellan has a higher save DC on Dominate Person than Quertus! 

Of course, Torellan only has a range of 30ft and a caster level of 12 for it. But still.


----------



## Endur (May 17, 2004)

Personally, I think a Frenzied Berserker Troll with a ring of spell storing (anti-magic globe) is the way to go.  The half-fiend template isn't necessary, unless you like playing the Flying Purple People Eater.



			
				Serpenteye said:
			
		

> And I was quite serious . I've actually considered making a Frenzied Berserker Half-fiend Troll (one or two levels of troll from Savage Species). He would be nearly unkillable in combat and when his frenzy ended he would simply go to sleep and slowly regenerate his wounds. Unless the whole party dies or flees he would be fairly safe...
> But I'd rather play a spellcaster.


----------



## Uriel (May 17, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Personally, I think a Frenzied Berserker Troll with a ring of spell storing (anti-magic globe) is the way to go.  The half-fiend template isn't necessary, unless you like playing the Flying Purple People Eater.





That would be funny until he had a patch of _Green Slime_ fall on him...


----------



## Serpenteye (May 17, 2004)

Uriel said:
			
		

> That would be funny until he had a patch of _Green Slime_ fall on him...




At these levels he could easily afford rings of protection from fire and acid, the wings are also unneccessary (since they give such a very slow fly speed). The main point of H-F would be the boost to intelligence, to make him more than a stupid animal on steroids.
If (when) my first character dies I'll give this one a try.


----------



## Uriel (May 17, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> At these levels he could easily afford rings of protection from fire and acid...





Not to quibble, but nowhere in the _Green Slime_ description <DMG pg 76>  does it describe the damage as either fire or acid. It does say that green Slime _converts_ the organic material into new green slime.
That is not burning and that is not acid damage.
Please feel free to correct me if i am wrong.

-Uriel


Green Slime has always been the DMs super Agent X for snuffing PCs.


----------



## Serpenteye (May 17, 2004)

Is it ok if I make some improvements to the Robe of the Evil Archmagi? 

*Robe of the Evil Archmagi:* 75'000gp (+5 ac, +4 saves, 18 SR, Spell Penetration)

*Greater Robe of the Evil Archmagi* +8 ac (+39000gp), +5 saves (+9000gp), 18 SR, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration (+10000gp), Use activated Acane Sight (+30000gp)
(all costs in addition to those already in the RotEAm, for a grand total of 163'000gp)


----------



## Serpenteye (May 17, 2004)

Uriel said:
			
		

> Not to quibble, but nowhere in the _Green Slime_ description <DMG pg 76>  does it describe the damage as either fire or acid. It does say that green Slime _converts_ the organic material into new green slime.
> That is not burning and that is not acid damage.
> Please feel free to correct me if i am wrong.
> 
> ...




You're probably right. All the oozes in the SRD do acid damage, so I assumed that was the case with the Green Slime.  

I guess a hermetically sealed Full Plate armour, a Stone Skin or Iron Form spell would protect against it (if it only does oozie-convertion damage). But the best option is probably just to Dimension Door or Teleport away or turn to Gaseous Form.
Off course I'm just guessing, maybe the conversion is instantaneous and the victim doesn't get an action before he's devoured. That would really be nasty.


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 17, 2004)

Serpenteye - I think that looks good, but I'm extremely sleep-deprived.  Lemme give a better answer in the afternoon after a nap.


----------



## Serpenteye (May 17, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Serpenteye - I think that looks good, but I'm extremely sleep-deprived.  Lemme give a better answer in the afternoon after a nap.




Ok. Sweet dreams


----------



## Uriel (May 17, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> You're probably right. All the oozes in the SRD do acid damage, so I assumed that was the case with the Green Slime.
> 
> I guess a hermetically sealed Full Plate armour, a Stone Skin or Iron Form spell would protect against it (if it only does oozie-convertion damage). But the best option is probably just to Dimension Door or Teleport away or turn to Gaseous Form.
> Off course I'm just guessing, maybe the conversion is instantaneous and the victim doesn't get an action before he's devoured. That would really be nasty.





Well, it does inmetal too, however it doesn't hurt stone.
I looked up Stoneskin, but it doesn't actually turn your skin to stone.

Hmmm...


I played a game where we had a room covered in _Green Slime_. All of the walls, floors etc... I had my Wizard cast Tenser's Disc (nothing there to  actually dissolve) and I used _Fly_ to move along underneath it. A TFD usually follows unless directed otherwise, as long as it stays withinrange. That Dm was PISSED. He had some super treasure in a stone box across the chamber and he was sure that we would never get to it.
One of those 'Shame you guys can't get it, it has a +4 Protection Ring inside' sort of gloats...





Off to bed...I'll send the master thrwer info in the am, herr DM.


----------



## Pyrex (May 17, 2004)

Ok, I'm back and I've caught up on the 5 pages you all have posted while I was gone.  

I'll update & repost Carcelon at ECL 20 sometime today.

Has anyone come across any particularly entertaining PrC's for a Priestess of Lolth?  I'm pondering mabye a level of Heirophant, but other than that I haven't come up with anything better than straight Cleric.


----------



## Xael (May 17, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> Has anyone come across any particularly entertaining PrC's for a Priestess of Lolth? I'm pondering mabye a level of Heirophant, but other than that I haven't come up with anything better than straight Cleric.



Other than Divine Disciple, no.


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 17, 2004)

Serpenteye, I've had a chance to look over your Evil Robes of Doom and I approve.

Pyrex - How about the Arachne from Faiths and Pantheons?  That's a great Lolth clerical PrC.

Uriel - Still waiting on the Mighty Thrower.

Dalamar - I got your e-mail about the Hexblade and sent you a big e-mail back.


----------



## Pyrex (May 17, 2004)

I don't have F&P, which might make that a bit more challenging.
(unless you want to e-mail it to me)

For now I'm just going ahead with Clr17/Hie1


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 17, 2004)

Pyrex, what's your e-mail address?


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 17, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> Has anyone come across any particularly entertaining PrC's for a Priestess of Lolth?  I'm pondering mabye a level of Heirophant, but other than that I haven't come up with anything better than straight Cleric.




I'm honestly not sure if WotC has made one...  I'll check when I get home from work.  I'm not so sure how Isida fills about it but I'm sure there's one in the Plot and Poison...  I can get both of you copies if she willing to entertain this idea.

Pyrex, if your interested I will also need your email address.

Isida, I'm pretty sure I have yours...


----------



## Seonaid (May 18, 2004)

Oooh, ooh, send me anything you send to Pyrex. I don't know anything about PrC's, but I am branching out there, in several campaigns. 

XXeXXscottXX04XX AT XXcityXXyearXX DOT XXorgXX

Take out the X's. (I'm really paranoid.)


----------



## Pyrex (May 18, 2004)

My email is michael_alex at msn.com

Isida, BS, (and anyone else) I'll need your addresses before you e-mail me so I can add you to my safe list.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 18, 2004)

Seonaid, ouch babe that's making my eyes hurt... How about ya just pm it to me? 

Pyrex, ftn4life@earthlink.net


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (May 18, 2004)

Isida, I forgot to ask before I wrote up the new, improved Tierak Morcane: What optional rules are being used from the BoVD?  I've got both the sacrifice and vile components used, along with one domain.

*Unveils sad puppy eyes*

Pretty pretty please, can I have them?  Please?  I'll be extra specially nice and always post on time, I promise.


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 18, 2004)

Pyrex, I'm barrow@iastate.edu

I get so much spam already that it doesn't realy matter if I get any more...

Paxus, sacrifice and vile components are go.  

Pyrex, as soon as I'm on your safe list let me know and I'll shoot you the Arachne.


----------



## Pyrex (May 18, 2004)

Isida, BS, you're both on my safe list.  Email away.


----------



## Xael (May 18, 2004)

These are the spells outside of the core books that I'd like to use. Are they okay? I can e-mail spells to you if you don't have some of the books.

_Create Magic Tattoo_ (FRCS page 68 and PGtF page 101, PGtF version adds 100gp material component)
_Aganazzar's Scorher_ (FRCS page 66)
_Lesser Ironguard_ (FRCS page 71-72)
_Thunderlance_ (FRCS page 75)
_Firebrand_ (MoF page 94)
_Hardening _(MoF page 99)
_Improved Blink_ (Unapproachable East page 50-51)
_Energy Immunity_ (T&B page 88)
_Lightning Ring_ (PGtF page 105)


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 18, 2004)

Pyrex, sent that PrC off to you last night.  I hope it makes a little sense.


----------



## Xael (May 18, 2004)

Serpenteye, how do you get so many skill points? By my calculations, you should only have 115.


----------



## Serpenteye (May 18, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> Serpenteye, how do you get so many skill points? By my calculations, you should only have 115.




Hmm, yes, it doesn't look quite right. I recalculated it to 116 points, and that's assuming I bbought the +6 to Int at 12th level (4*4 + 11*4 + 8*7). How did you arrive at 115?


----------



## Xael (May 18, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Hmm, yes, it doesn't look quite right. I recalculated it to 116 points, and that's assuming I bbought the +6 to Int at 12th level (4*4 + 11*4 + 8*7). How did you arrive at 115?



Enhancement bonus to Intelligence doesn't give extra skill points in 3.5 anymore (it was too much trouble to keep track of them suppose).

I counted like this:

First sorcerer level: 4*[2 base +2 Int +1 Human] = 4*5 = 20
Rest of Sorcerer levels: 5*5 = 25
Incantatrix/Incantatar levels: 9*5 = 45
Archmage levels: 5*5 = 25

Total of 115.


Just started doubting that 140 points because it's more that Quertus has...


----------



## Serpenteye (May 18, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> Enhancement bonus to Intelligence doesn't give extra skill points in 3.5 anymore (it was too much trouble to keep track of them suppose).
> 
> I counted like this:
> 
> ...




...I forgot about the Human bonus to skill points.


----------



## Pyrex (May 18, 2004)

I took a look at the Arachne, but the prereqs are a bit much, so I think I'll stick with my plan of cleric/heirophant.


----------



## Paxus Asclepius (May 18, 2004)

One quick question: between my Arachne and Thaumaturge levels, I've got one ECL 18 planar cohort, one familiar at 18th level of benefits, and a Large Monstrous Spider mount with the benefits of being a 7th level paladin's mount.  Is there any way I can combine these into a single entity, so as not to be dealing with quite so many creepy crawly things?  My thought was to take a bebilith, roughly ECL 18-20, and add the non-hit die benefits of the two class features, overlapping rather than stacking where one was superior.


----------



## Dalamar (May 18, 2004)

Here's the nuts'n'bolts version of Torellan with psychic warrior levels (he has a +22 Spot and Listen before any ranks ). What do you think guys, would you rather hang around with this brawny and clawed Torellon, or the the dexterous, dagger-wielding Torellan?

*Str* 26 [6 points, +6 racial, +6 enhancement], *Dex* 26 [6 points, +6 racial, +6 enhancement], *Con* -- [-- racial], *Int* 14 [2 points, +2 racial, +2 racial at 11th level], *Wis* 34 [16 points, +2 racial, +3 levels, +6 enhancement, +5 inherent], *Cha* 20 [2 points, +4 racial, +6 enhancement]

Feats: Vampire bonus feats, Psionic Body (1st), Psionic Fist (1st Psychic Warrior), Speed of Thought (2nd Psychic Warrior), Weapon Focus (Claw) (3rd), Psionic Meditation (5th Psychic Warrior), Expanded Knowledge (Vigor) (6th),, Unavoidable Strike (8th Psychic Warrior), Greater Psionic Fist (9th), Improved Critical (Claw) (11th Psychic Warrior), Extend Power (12th)

Power Points: 43+72=115, Power save DC 22+power's level
_1st_ (3+1): Claws of the Beast, Inertial Armor, Thicken Skin, Vigor
_2nd_ (3): Body Equilibrium, Hustle, Specified Energy Adaptation, 
_3rd_ (3): Claws of the Vampire, Empathic Feedback, Evade Burst
_4th_ (3): Psionic Dimension Door, Psionic Freedom of Movement, Truevenom


----------



## Serpenteye (May 18, 2004)

Dalamar said:
			
		

> Here's the nuts'n'bolts version of Torellan with psychic warrior levels (he has a +22 Spot and Listen before any ranks ). What do you think guys, would you rather hang around with this brawny and clawed Torellon, or the the dexterous, dagger-wielding Torellan?
> 
> *Str* 26 [6 points, +6 racial, +6 enhancement], *Dex* 26 [6 points, +6 racial, +6 enhancement], *Con* -- [-- racial], *Int* 14 [2 points, +2 racial, +2 racial at 11th level], *Wis* 34 [16 points, +2 racial, +3 levels, +6 enhancement, +5 inherent], *Cha* 20 [2 points, +4 racial, +6 enhancement]
> 
> ...




This version is obviously more powerful than the other one. He may be weaker on defense, but he more than makes up for it in damage-dealing ability. And defense is not all that important since he will regenerate himself if he's killed.
Do what you want, either one is fine by me.


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 18, 2004)

Dalamar, Torellan is pretty sweet, but then again an effectively 20th level vampire drow ought to be.  

Paxus, while combining your three critters would be nice, it would be a huge blow if it were to fall in combat.  Besides, each of the three fill a different role.  Your familiar is basically your own personal little scout, your mount is your combat buddy and your planar cohort I assume would be your bodyguard.  What I can do to aid you is get your suggestions for the general actions you would have them do and help you in role-playing them, giving you information and junk from your familiar automatically, for existance, as well as adding color commentary.  

The whole point of your build is to have three critters running around, and to combine them into one could weaken you a bit, perhaps.  At any rate, you don't have to confine yourself to just demons if you don't want to.  If you want to take a weaker extraplanar creature (such as a Khaasta, from the Fiend Folio, which has an ECL of 6) and add on some character levels, feel free.  I do have a wide amount of monster books:  MM, MMII, FF, Tome of Horror I & II, Monsters of Faerun, as well as monsters introduced in all the FR books, Book of Vile Darkness, Manual of the Planes, Draconomicon, and Savage Species.  And if you want to go with some kind of corrupted celestial or something, that would be cool too.


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## Pyrex (May 19, 2004)

I'm mostly finished but can't find the post detailing how much GP we should have.

Can one of you fill me in?  Thanks!


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## Dalamar (May 19, 2004)

760,000gp like all other characters of 20th level. 

Also, I'm currently in the work of finishing the pw version of Torellan... at 10th level, to bring him in line with everybody else.


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## Endur (May 19, 2004)

Have you looked at the LifeDrinker prc from the BOVD for Torellan?


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 19, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> Isida, BS, you're both on my safe list.  Email away.



I got nothing to be honest...  P&P got some decent PrC but they mainly managed to capture the S&M nature of the drow...

Underdark has a drow PrC but it's more warrior than cleric.

sadly the player's guide to Faerûn has a vile Kiaransalee PrC...  Why her and not Lolth surprises and confuses me...  :\


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## Endur (May 19, 2004)

Actually, the pre-reqs for Arachne are pretty easy to get into:

Skills: 12 points spent on skills you probably would take anyways.

Feats: Great Fortitude (necessary for drow low con), Survivor (makes perfect sense IC), Still Spell (awesome feat for spellcaster), and Exotic Weapon Proficiency Hand Xbow (all drow automatically have this).

Domain: Spider.

other easy pre-reqs: ce female that belongs to a race that worships Lolth, able to cast level 3+ spells, must have passed the test of Lolth.



			
				Pyrex said:
			
		

> I took a look at the Arachne, but the prereqs are a bit much, so I think I'll stick with my plan of cleric/heirophant.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 19, 2004)

I even pulled out the Dragon devoted to the Drow and still found no Lolth PrCs...  Now if you want a PrC that's designed to kill drow let me know.


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## Endur (May 19, 2004)

One PRC per God(dess) and Lolth already has a PRC in Faiths and Pantheons.  



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> sadly the player's guide to Faerûn has a vile Kiaransalee PrC...  Why her and not Lolth surprises and confuses me...  :\


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 19, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> One PRC per God(dess) and Lolth already has a PRC in Faiths and Pantheons.



Ahhh makes sense I didn't really bother to look cause I new Isida had that covered...  As for the PrC itself, I'm not that impressed as I think Sune's is sadly is more powerfully...   (and I consider that PrC to be way to weak.)

Nice 7th level ability though.


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## Dalamar (May 19, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Have you looked at the LifeDrinker prc from the BOVD for Torellan?



 That sounds interesting... Care to give a quick rundown on the abilities, I don't have BoVD?


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 19, 2004)

I'll e-mail the Lifedrinker to you Dalamar.

In other news, as a 10th-level psi-war Torellan would have a base mode check of +3. He would also know 3 talents (chosen from the 3.0 Psionics handbook, cannot be augmented) and could manifest them 12 times per day for free.  

And Bro, for the Arachne, a paladin's mount, a full wizard's familiar, and a bevy of undead all your own, in addition to full caster progression and that's _weak_?!  I have often thought the FR clerical PrCs were a bit on the extra crispy side, but in an all FR campaign they tend to balance out.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 19, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> And Bro, for the Arachne, a paladin's mount, a full wizard's familiar, and a bevy of undead all your own, in addition to full caster progression and that's _weak_?!



By the time she gets to the point of having a mount its going to be there for about 1 battle and then she's going to be missing one for a year and a day...  It’s all about context and the low-level paladin mount (5th level) is not one I would want in an epic level game.  

The familiar, doesn't really impress me either.



			
				Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> I have often thought the FR clerical PrCs were a bit on the extra crispy side, but in an all FR campaign they tend to balance out.



I do take back my comment on this PrC being weaker than the Heartwarder (Sune) as its divine side truly does stink.  And I should and do know.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 19, 2004)

Meh.  The mount might stink as is, but that's what spells and stuff are for.  You're a 20th level character with money coming out of your wazoo, throwing on a magical amulet and adding a collar of virulent venom should be pocket change and still make the spider oh-so-nasty.  And never underestimate the familiar, they're your ace in the hole.  

Dalamar, I just sent the lifedrinker.  After looking at it, I realize how much of a monster it is.  Torellan could be worse than before with that baby, if he likes to cast spells (I would also allow this to be used for psionics, replacing the Knowledge (arcana) with Knowledge (psionics) and Spellcraft with Psicraft).


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 19, 2004)

I guess I'll be the one to beg for a PrC this time...  Anyhow got any ideas for something nasty?  Right now I got three different classes and there really all needed for his character but the levels could be moved around.

Mounts and familiars make fine dining... Or so says Kilcif the chosen.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 19, 2004)

Isida, I'm sort of looking at this list...  I have 3 items that have multiple items, all core.

I have Soul Fire from the BoED (pg. 112) and the Bracers of the Blinding Strike +6 (pg. 155) Magic of Faerûn.  Of course I don't really need the armor part and would like to slide that off and use the coins for something else...  If not hey, I guess I can always have a backup plan.  

Oh yeah and I turned a clock of resistance into an amulet as I rather dislike cloaks and such.



```
Manual of bodily health +4	110,000
Manual of gainful exercise +4	110,000
Keen, Ghost Touch adamantine Morningstar +5	101308
Mithral Breast Plate +5 (Soul Fire)	85,200
Mithral Buckler +5	26,015
Bracers of the Blinding Strike	        102,000
regeneration, Sustenance ring of	93,750
Ring of Free Action, Free Fall	43,300
Belt of Giant Strenght +6	36,000
amulent of Resistance	25,000
Winterlands Boots of Striding and Springing 	9,250
```


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 19, 2004)

One thing I would request, if you're combinging magical items, is to slightly up the price.  Getting two abilities put on one ring means you could technically have the powers of four or more rings, but only be using two slots.  So I would like those that are combining magical items (as if you want to eliminate certain powers off of a multi-power item for extra cash, you can, but do try to do it by the formula) to pay a little extra.  Maybe 40% more for the total cost of the two items combined?  Does that seem fair?

(I didn't worry as much in my other games, but this is a big, epic game and the less insanity there is, not that I can stop much of it at this point, the easier it will be on me.)


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 19, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Does that seem fair?




I know that a few of the others have already done the 1.5 cost from 3.5 so you might get more of a complaint.  As for why, consider the items that I added 2,200, 2,500, and 2,500 and they where added to an item that cost 90k, and 40K, and 5,500 I do sort of mind...

The ring of regeneration and sustenance now costs: 129500 instead of 93,750. ) (Total change: 35750) That's too much if you ask me.   So I'll simply drop all the second ability items. 

Except for maybe the boots...  It's only 2 grand I can live with that.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 19, 2004)

Isida, I sort of fat fingered my keyboard and you replied before I got done editing so I thought I would repost this to catch your eye.



			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> I have Soul Fire from the BoED (pg. 112) and the Bracers of the Blinding Strike +6 (pg. 155) Magic of Faerûn. Of course I don't really need the armor part and would like to slide that off and use the coins for something else... If not hey, I guess I can always have a backup plan.




If the Bracers make you cry please say something to me about it...


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 19, 2004)

Well, maybe we can work something out, but there's a limit on what you can wear for a reason.  If someone wants to find a more favorable formula (such as in Tome and Blood) and convince me otherwise, I could reconsider.

Now, as for Soulfire...  You know I automatically reached for the Book of Vile Darkness before I double-checked the source.  Anyway, the DM may cry, but if you have the cash for it, that's what it's there for.  Besides, targeting a fighter with a Fort save is silly anyway.  I'd much rather torture the (living) spellcasters with my death effects and level-drainng attacks.  Bracers of Blinding Strike are quite nice, but then again they cost a boatload and that's the point.  Have fun with them!


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## Xael (May 19, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> One thing I would request, if you're combinging magical items, is to slightly up the price. Getting two abilities put on one ring means you could technically have the powers of four or more rings, but only be using two slots. So I would like those that are combining magical items (as if you want to eliminate certain powers off of a multi-power item for extra cash, you can, but do try to do it by the formula) to pay a little extra. Maybe 40% more for the total cost of the two items combined? Does that seem fair?



Well, there's already a 50% price increase when adding multiple abilities to a single item. And the market price still caps at 200,000, so most of the items with multiple abilities shouldn't be game-wracking, as you can still have only one or two major abilities in a single item, and they cost more. Or, as is more usual, they have tons of smaller enhancements in them. 

I mean, Quertus has 6 different cloaks fused in his cloak and a ring with 4. I could start to move those abilities to robe/vest slots or somewhere else or course. But come on, we have 760k, if we start to divide the items then we'll have like at least 300k left while we run out of slots, unless of course we go for the most expensive items one can find, even though we have no use for them. 

Besides, Brother Shatterstone already mentioned the ring of regeneration and sustenance combination -type sillyness. It basically increases the cost of small enhancements by 10 times when added to expensive items. It would cost 20k to add the elvenkind property to a cloak of charisma +6. Frankly, that's too much IMHO.

Besides, ûber-items-of-doom are just so much cooler than horde of +5 to jump thingies.

You're the boss though. I'd suggest that if you want to up the prices, go for the 3.0 increase, which doubles the price of additional enhancements. That's the price one can pay to make the item slotless anyway.


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## Dalamar (May 19, 2004)

Well, if we go for the 'double the cost of additionals', I'll start just making them slotless abilities instead, and make them harder to dispel.


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## Serpenteye (May 19, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> One thing I would request, if you're combinging magical items, is to slightly up the price.  Getting two abilities put on one ring means you could technically have the powers of four or more rings, but only be using two slots.  So I would like those that are combining magical items (as if you want to eliminate certain powers off of a multi-power item for extra cash, you can, but do try to do it by the formula) to pay a little extra.  Maybe 40% more for the total cost of the two items combined?  Does that seem fair?
> 
> (I didn't worry as much in my other games, but this is a big, epic game and the less insanity there is, not that I can stop much of it at this point, the easier it will be on me.)




It's no big deal. As Dalamar said I'll simply make them slotless (And use my two empty slots). Bigger items have more flavour and are more personal than the standard equipment, but if you stand by your ruling I can work around it.


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## Xael (May 19, 2004)

Serpenteye said:
			
		

> Bigger items have more flavour and are more personal than the standard equipment...



I'll second this.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 19, 2004)

Ah, I didn't realize you guys were already using a mechanic for multiple ability items.  Carry on then!


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## Pyrex (May 19, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> Actually, the pre-reqs for Arachne are pretty easy to get into:




The only prereq I really had a problem with was the feats.  
Swapping out three of my feats for GF, Survivor and Silent Spell really doesn't excite me.

That and I decided I didn't want that large a hit to my ability to rebuke/command undead.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 19, 2004)

Hey Bro, as for PrCs for your character, what about my own Grim?


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 19, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Now, as for Soulfire...  You know I automatically reached for the Book of Vile Darkness before I double-checked the source.




You know me, I always use every source I can find... 



			
				Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Besides, targeting a fighter with a Fort save is silly anyway.  I'd much rather torture the (living) spellcasters with my death effects and level-drainng attacks.




I've seen to many undead to simply not take it, besides only the lowest tier of undead grant you a saving throw at the on set of the level drain.  Besides someone has to keep a watchful eye on Torellan. 

I did take the undead bane from my morningstar though. 



			
				Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Bracers of Blinding Strike are quite nice, but then again they cost a boatload and that's the point.  Have fun with them!



Cool, I doubt it's a go but I didn't see a yay or nay on removing the cost of the bracers of Defense +6 from them.

I'll email those feats I want you to look at tonight, along with any PrC that catches my eye but to be honest few if anything really has.

Isida, one last thing.  Endur ruled, though late in the game, that since scent was listed in the 3.5 Bugbear entry that Kilcif indeed had it.  It's not listed in the PC part nor is the same entry made in the 3.0 M&M or Savage Spices (also 3.0) so it could very well be a typo...  So what do you think?


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 19, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Hey Bro, as for PrCs for your character, what about my own Grim?




Grim?  Not sure I'm fallowing you on that one...  What book?  (not that I'm near them right now mind you.) (nevermind it's one of yours...   )

Since I am away from my books right now are your own PrC fair game for this adventure?  

I'll look it over on lunch, I got to run for now.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 19, 2004)

When I said my own Grim, I did indeed mean the prestige class, The Grim, that I, myself, made.  So yes, mine are open for use.  If someone wants to use the Bound Woman, I could allow for a Lawful Evil alignment as well as a Lawful Neutral one as well.  

Having scent is fine too.


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## Pyrex (May 19, 2004)

I've posted Carcelon in the new RG thread.

Except for any questions/comments/suggestions I should be pretty much done.


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## Xael (May 19, 2004)

Pyrex said:
			
		

> Except for any questions/comments/suggestions I should be pretty much done.



The price for the Elven Cloak of Resistance +5 should be 28,750gp.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 19, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> When I said my own Grim, I did indeed mean the prestige class, The Grim, that I, myself, made.




Yeah I read to quickly...  as for the Grim PrC I really like it but unfortunately Kilcif doesn't have the charisma to make it work.  



			
				Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> So yes, mine are open for use.




sweet, I'll dig through them. 



			
				Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Having scent is fine too.




Sweet.


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## Serpenteye (May 19, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> Ah, I didn't realize you guys were already using a mechanic for multiple ability items.  Carry on then!




Thanks.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 19, 2004)

Isida, the Forbidden Warrior is looking rather nice...  but I think you have something more good in mind where you wrote it so I figured I would ask but not really expect to get it. 

I'll have to look at the feats when I get home...


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 19, 2004)

I wrote the Forbidden Warrior to be the holy warrior of a god, any god.  Even dark gods.  You could take the Unholy Warrior if you wanted for a core class too.  And that goes for anyone.


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## Pyrex (May 19, 2004)

Xael said:
			
		

> The price for the Elven Cloak of Resistance +5 should be 28,750gp.




Oops, right you are.  I'll fix that.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 19, 2004)

Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> I wrote the Forbidden Warrior to be the holy warrior of a god, any god.  Even dark gods.



Cool.   I'll give the feats a look over when I get home.   (Is there any vile feat options?)



			
				Isida Kep'Tukari said:
			
		

> You could take the Unholy Warrior if you wanted for a core class too..




Yeah I've looked it over, but to be honest I lost too much of what he original was in another core class.  Though it does present itself as an interesting PrC...


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## Endur (May 20, 2004)

I wrote the transition post.  Everything else is for our new GM.  I'd recommend a new talking the talk and a new playing the game thread too.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 20, 2004)

Endur said:
			
		

> I wrote the transition post.




Nice post.    It's been a fun ride, my friend.  I wish you luck wherever you end up.   Don't be a stranger.

A Link to the new OOC thread.


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## Pyrex (May 20, 2004)

Agreed.  Thanks again for the great game and thanks for the wrap-up.


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## Seonaid (May 20, 2004)

My favorite part? "Quertus sees Icho's lust for his soul, and strangles Icho."

Thanks, Endur!

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thread locked on 6/29/04 by Brother Shatterstone


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