# I need your opinions please



## BonesMcCoy (Sep 20, 2002)

ENWorld Thought Police

Is it customary to recieve a private email saying one is posting incorrectly? Just because the email in question is phrased politely does that make it any less wrong? I am being told to post differently; 'non-offensively'. The obvious insinuation is that if I don't, further 'official' actions will be taken. Is that typical for these forums?

And is it right?

Well, IMO, I would have to say it all depends on the initial posts in question. Just how bad were they? If they were terribly offensive, extremely insulting, rude and vulgar, full of curse words, threatening, etc. then sure, I think censorship is called for. But take a gander at my 'offensive' posts and see if they are just that offensive:

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24754

Now this is supposedly a thread about Todd Lockwood getting laid off from WotC. But look again:

"As of the end of this year, I will no longer be employed by Wizards of the Coast. The powers that be at Wizards and Hasbro have determined that an art staff is unecessary. Whatever."

Here it is September and he is getting 'let-go' on Dec 31. He is thus not currently in any dire straits. Furthermore he expresses his views on the situation by saying "whatever".  Which is generally accepted to mean "I don't care".  Thus he is not 'all busted up' about this.

"I will be seeking work primarily in the book trade, but am willing to entertain all offers"

Aha! Here we see the real reason for his post: he's looking for work; obviously, since he posted to the d20 publishers forum instead of this board. And he has 3 months to find that work. Far from a desperate situation. Far from a delicate topic. Not something that needs to be pussy-footed around.

So why then do all the posters act like somebody just died and jump on my case when I don't follow suit?  In the ensuing posts, nowhere does Todd reappear to call me rude or insulting. He does not ask me to stop posting. Why? Because he couldn't care less!  His post was to the d20 publishers to let them know he is available for work as of Dec 31. He couldn't care less what I think of his artwork, nor do I expect him to. I was posting there to let the d20 publishers know that if they hire him there are some of us out here that do not appreciate the 3E look and maybe they would ask him to tone it down a bit. Or maybe not. Whatever.

The point is this was not a delicate topic, Todd did not seem to care about my posts, and I was not particularly insulting or offensive to Todd or anybody else:  so why the Thought Police?


----------



## EricNoah (Sep 20, 2002)

We prefer the term "Mind Masters" to "Thought Police."

Also, comments about the forums belong in Meta, and I'll move this there.


----------



## FullTinCan (Sep 20, 2002)

I believe that your reply would have better served as a new thread in the General Topics section discussing the differences between OD&D and 3E.

Otherwise, I don't think your reply is very inflammatory.


----------



## BonesMcCoy (Sep 20, 2002)

Naturally, since that forum gets so much less traffic. Thanks.


----------



## EricNoah (Sep 20, 2002)

Hey, no problem, we aim to please.

In the future if you have an actual question you could start by not being insulting.  I personally find that "EN World Thought Police" has a somewhat derogatory ring to it.  It's clear to me that you don't actually want your question answered, you just want to gripe, which is fine, go at it and enjoy.


----------



## Henry (Sep 20, 2002)

Since you wish to make it public, I'll respond publically:

1. There is an "unwritten protocol" that many professional designers and artists try to follow, not to respond to direct criticism of their works. Therefore, even if he were offended, TOdd directly responding would not have necessarily shown very favorably on him. Though heretofore unwritten, Monte Cook does a very good job of spelling this out in a recent line of sight column on his web site:

http://www.montecook.com/arch_lineos62.html

2. You are not the first person on ENWorld who has gotten a private correspondence for insulting behavior, and certainly not the last. If a moderator sees something that would likely reflect offensively on another poster or the community as a whole, then they are asked by nature of their duties to stop it before it becomes something REALLY offensive. Usually, one of the first recourses is a private e-mail so as not to publically deride the poster. I go the private route first. If another wishes to publically discuss it, I'll make it public.

3. I don't recall asking you to change your opinions, or threaten you in any way. What I did ask is not to come off offensively towards Todd's work in the thread he himself started, and for you to please re-evaluate some of his non-D&D work, particularly some of his d20 work for Thunderhead Games. I don't ban people - I leave that to Morrus' call.

I must get back to real life, but if any of the other board members or mod's wishes to say something on this, feel welcome.

Sincerely,

Henry


----------



## Darkness (Sep 20, 2002)

bones_mccoy said:
			
		

> *Naturally, since that forum gets so much less traffic. Thanks.  *



Wrong; it's because the boards are _sorted by topics_.

Not that difficult a concept, is it? 

- Darkness


----------



## alsih2o (Sep 20, 2002)

a private email is the norm here, and it is right. 

 otherwise your option is a public smackdown, wherein a battle of intellects might erupt, and this could cause several people here to lose respect for you.


 of course, whining might do the same thing, and making weak arguments. so i would suggest avoiding that  

 also, i think you may be misinterprating "whatever" from his post.

 many people, and especially artist, tend to identify strongly with their jobs. imo that thread is NOT the place to lay criticism.

 had he made the statement "what do you think of my work?" i could see it. a seperate thread i could see to. as it is it just looks like you goofed and won't accept it.

 this isn't a public street, this is an owned site with members with preferred taste. you do have the right to shout whatever you want at the clouds and streetlamps with noone stopping you, but you can't do it many other places. this is one of them, and that is one of the reasons many of us are here.


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Sep 20, 2002)

bones_mccoy said:
			
		

> *So why then do all the posters act like somebody just died and jump on my case when I don't follow suit?  In the ensuing posts, nowhere does Todd reappear to call me rude or insulting. He does not ask me to stop posting. Why? Because he couldn't care less!  His post was to the d20 publishers to let them know he is available for work as of Dec 31. He couldn't care less what I think of his artwork, nor do I expect him to. I was posting there to let the d20 publishers know that if they hire him there are some of us out here that do not appreciate the 3E look and maybe they would ask him to tone it down a bit. Or maybe not. Whatever.
> 
> The point is this was not a delicate topic, Todd did not seem to care about my posts, and I was not particularly insulting or offensive to Todd or anybody else:  so why the Thought Police? *




Why is it so many people come to EN World, tell the people who post here that they're known to be rude, combative, and closed-minded, and then proceed to be even more rude, combative, and closed-minded than the regular posters here?

Why did we object to what you were saying? Because it was rude and showed a lack of tact. You have a right to say what you think, but so do we - and we said we thought you were being thoughtless and rude.


----------



## Furn_Darkside (Sep 20, 2002)

bones_mccoy said:
			
		

> *so why the Thought Police? *




I have not read your post, but keep in mind that we are guests here. We don't not have freedom of speech. We don't have a right to anything. We play by the rules here or we are asked to leave. 

"Though Police" makes no sense- you are not being told what to think, but being asked to express your thoughts with polite consideration of the board.

While mods do make mistakes, the odds are if you are called on for being rude- you were being rude. 

It is best to swallow the pride and apologize to keep the peace, because doing anything else is most likely going to make the matter more complicated.

Trust me- I know pride is a very bitter pill. 

FD


----------



## Eosin the Red (Sep 20, 2002)

I thought your reply in the other thread was tacky and embarassing to ENworlders as a whole. We like to treat people well here. That doesn't mean you can't disagree, just try not to be an ........ well, you know. 

If you want to talk about what you think of Todds art start a topic in THE ART FORUM - if you want to talk about how the art has impacted D&D start a topic in the GENERAL FORUM. Don't talk about it on a thread about getting the pink slip - even if it is delayed. It is not polite.

This should have stayed private. Your bad, again.


----------



## chatdemon (Sep 21, 2002)

Bones,
You're only allowed to be belligerent, meanspirited and rude if you're in a thread where the whole bandwagon is being belligerent, meanspirited and rude, you didn't know that? 

Seriously though, I can see how posting 'I don't like Lockwood's art' in a thread Lockwood started is a bit rude, just start a new thread in the publishers forum about which artists you do or don't like. 

I'm far from perfect, I've been dealt with before for posting things that were innapropriate. I'm not trying to talk down, just trying to help you avoid the further action that you (correctly, IMO0 assumed would come if you don't follow the moderators advice.

BTW, I agree, I hate WotC's 3e art look.


----------



## Dinkeldog (Sep 21, 2002)

Welcome back, Chatdemon.  Still bitter.  Nice to see that some things never change.


----------



## Airwolf (Sep 21, 2002)

Bones,

I have to agree with FullTinCan you post would have been better served in own thread (either in that category or in another).  

As far as being insulting I didn't see anything that was overtly insulting.  Now that doesn't mean that someone wouldn't take parts of it to be insulting but you can go around trying to please everyone with everything you say (type).

I have never been so honored to receive a nasty-gram (that's what we like to call them at work, even if they aren't really that nasty) from a moderator.  That being the case I don't know if yours came from one mod or all, but keep in mind that it is in his/her (or their) opinion that your remarks were considered rude.  Since his/her (their) opinion is the one(s) that counts its the one by which all of the replies get measured.  Just because someone (or a group) says its rude doesn't mean it always is.  Here is an analogy, the umpires in baseball never get all the calls right, but they get most. 

For the good of the boards the average poster must (or should at least) rely on the moderators to get most of the calls they make right and try to the best of their ability to get them all right.  

Well, that should really muck things up.   Good luck in your future postings.


----------



## Horacio (Sep 21, 2002)

Airwolf said:
			
		

> *Bones,
> 
> I have to agree with FullTinCan you post would have been better served in own thread (either in that category or in another).
> 
> ...




I did see somethings insulting.

He sqid ENWorld discussions were bland and banal. He came here to tell us how bland and banal we are and to help us to be less bland and banal with his insighting discussions....

It was at least rude to arrive to a new community insulting people who are here. And as I don't like to repeat myself )):


> _Originally posted by me_
> *Perhaps if you see these forums as bland and banal you should go posting another place, like RPG.net, and leave us with our banal and bland community.*


----------



## the Jester (Sep 21, 2002)

Bones,

First off, I don't want to see you chased away from the boards here.  I like having different points of view presented and have noticed your posts and found them interesting.

That said, I do think your posts in the thread in question were a little rude, but hey, we all make mistakes.  I try hard to be civil and polite here; the generally civil and polite tone is something I cherish about ENWorld.  I like vigorous discussion and debate, but without getting snippy and personal (not that your posts necessarily were, btw).  

Stick around, give it a try, be polite.  I have noticed a tendency towards heavy moderation here (huh huh) but I don't find it so oppresive that I can't post how I feel about an issue.  I just need to make sure that I post my feelings without getting personal or insulting.


----------



## BonesMcCoy (Sep 21, 2002)

Thanks to everyone for their replies. I will take your advice and apologize for my 'rude' comments, even if they weren't that bad.

My apologies to EricNoah for being so insulting. I promise I'll try to behave more appropriately in the future.

My apologies to Henry Link for my insulting behavior. I should have just listened to your email and left it at that.

My apologies to all the posters on the thread in question. I behaved badly and I sincerely hope you can forgive me.

And most of all, my apologies to Todd Lockwood. I should have started a new thread and not criticized you in yours.


----------



## chatdemon (Sep 21, 2002)

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> *Welcome back, Chatdemon.  Still bitter.  Nice to see that some things never change. *




Bah, that wasn't bitter, that was just good hearted sarcasm. I wasn't referring to anything in particular. Just rapping with Bones as one naughty poster to another


----------



## Airwolf (Sep 21, 2002)

Horacio said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I did see somethings insulting.
> 
> ...




Ah, my point has been proved.  I didn't take it as insulting just someone who expressed is view.  Thanks Horacio!


----------



## Horacio (Sep 21, 2002)

Airwolf said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Ah, my point has been proved.  I didn't take it as insulting just someone who expressed is view.  Thanks Horacio!   *




I know it proved your point, but it was true, I felt insulted. 

No hard feelings now, and let's forget it, o.k.?


----------



## the Jester (Sep 21, 2002)

bones_mccoy said:
			
		

> *Thanks to everyone for their replies. I will take your advice and apologize for my 'rude' comments, even if they weren't that bad.
> *




Well said, Bones.  Hope you find that the boards here are worth hanging out at!  As I said above, I for one will be glad to see your input on things.


----------



## FullTinCan (Sep 21, 2002)

bones_mccoy said:
			
		

> *Thanks to everyone for their replies. I will take your advice and apologize for my 'rude' comments, even if they weren't that bad.
> 
> My apologies to EricNoah for being so insulting. I promise I'll try to behave more appropriately in the future.
> 
> ...




Live and learn.  Hope to hear more from you and glad you were willing to have an open discourse on the subject.

Happy posting.


----------

