# Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.



## Bullgrit (Oct 23, 2013)

So who's regularly watching it, and what do you think?

Bullgrit


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## Mallus (Oct 23, 2013)

I missed last nights episode, but I'll catch in on Hulu tonight.  I went in with low expectations and have been pleasantly surprised. It's not the Whedon Family's best work by a long shot, but I find it very entertaining. And the opening scene in last week's episode with all the masked couriers in Stockholm was television genius.

I've got no interest in any other of the Acronym Techno-thrillers (C.S.I, N.C.I.S) that have been so popular over the last decade, and I wasn't an Alias fan, either, but I'm digging Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.


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## MarkB (Oct 23, 2013)

I'm liking the show so far (in the UK, so a week behind the latest US episode). The characters are currently the only weak point - they're a fun group dynamic, but so far established only in very broad strokes.

We had two episodes of Coulson's old life coming back to haunt him, which is fine, but what we could really do with is some individual character-establishing episodes for the rest of the team. They would all benefit from some fleshing-out.


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## Herschel (Oct 23, 2013)

It's fluffy, teen-friendly, and fairly shallow but it's fun enough.


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## Umbran (Oct 23, 2013)

I'm two episodes behind, at the moment.  So far, the show and characters don't have a lot of depth.  I expect my wife is close to ready to give up on it, for that reason.


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## Richards (Oct 23, 2013)

I'm really enjoying it.  I like the fact that they're building on their previous plotlines, like the fact that the Project Centipede guys from the first episode are taking steps to fine-tune their process.  And the episode with the gravity scientist looks to have been an origin story for a future recurring villain.

Johnathan


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## Crothian (Oct 23, 2013)

It has it faults that people have mentioned but I'm enjoying it.  It helps that there are not a lot of shows on that I enjoy so I have plenty of time to watch it.


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## Ahnehnois (Oct 24, 2013)

Haven't watched the most recent episode yet. It seems pretty much what one would expect: like the Avengers but watered down somewhat for TV. It's picked up a bit; maybe it'll get more substantial and maybe it won't, but as it is it's a mildly entertaining action piece.


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## Umbran (Oct 24, 2013)

Richards said:


> And the episode with the gravity scientist looks to have been an origin story for a future recurring villain.




Dr. Franklin Hall is the name of the Marvel villain Graviton.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graviton_(comics)


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## EscherEnigma (Oct 24, 2013)

I'm two episodes behind, but the three episodes I watched were interesting enough I plan on watching the others when I get around to it.

Nothing amazing, but enough.


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## tomBitonti (Oct 24, 2013)

Hard to answer.

Catch up.  



Spoiler



This week's episode is important to the series.



Thx!

TomB


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## Wycen (Oct 24, 2013)

I missed an episode, before the China incident, since I was at a wedding reception, but I like it.  I try to look for easter eggs, but I'm probably way out of the loop on comic universe continuity for anything except the most obvious stuff.

I do wonder how much they'll straddle the line between super heroes and really competent individuals.


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## EricNoah (Oct 24, 2013)

Gave it a try but just found it to be a joyless chore. Main guy's likeable enough, but I didn't care much about the others or what was going on. Admittedly only found the Avengers movie to be so-so (cared about Iron Man, didn't really care about the others).


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## Umbran (Oct 25, 2013)

EricNoah said:


> Main guy's likeable enough, but I didn't care much about the others or what was going on.




That's consistent with what I was saying - not a lot of depth yet.



> Admittedly only found the Avengers movie to be so-so (cared about Iron Man, didn't really care about the others).




Question:  Did you watch the Thor and/or Captain America movies separately?


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## EricNoah (Oct 25, 2013)

I could not get through Thor; I thought Captain America was decent.


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## EricNoah (Oct 26, 2013)

And the trailer for the new Captain America movie looks promising.


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## calronmoonflower (Oct 30, 2013)

So we have a rerun already. Maybe they are trying to air an specific episode at a particular date.


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## Bullgrit (Oct 30, 2013)

calronmoonflower said:
			
		

> So we have a rerun already. Maybe they are trying to air an specific episode at a particular date.



Yeah, I was disappointed last night to see they were airing the first episode again. This is just the, what, fifth week into the season? The episode they advertised at the end of last week's ep, (and again this week), looks like a scary/ghosty/Halloweeny plot. It would make sense airing this week with all the other Halloween shows. 

Although, I think I enjoyed the first episode more seeing it this second time.

Bullgrit


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## calronmoonflower (Nov 21, 2013)

So what do you guts think happened to Agent Coulson?

It seems at the very least his memory has been tampered with by SHIELD. My suspicions are he is now a robot, a clone (Cloneson?), or was resurrected a bit damaged.


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## Bullgrit (Nov 21, 2013)

I suspect there was some Asgardian magic used to bring him back. If it turns out he's a robot or a clone or in any other way not really Phil Coulson, I'll stop watching the show then and there.

Bullgrit


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## Umbran (Nov 22, 2013)

I'm now several episodes behind...

As for Coulson - he mentions at one point that a few skills are rusty, though he expects them to be in "muscle memory" - suggesting he's not in his original body.

I'm guessing he's a LMD - Life Model Decoy.  They are solidly canon, and mentioned by Stark in the movie, even. 

However, there's the whole stress on, "...Tahiti, it's a _magical_ place...," that could speak to some other way to have him around.


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## darrell_uk (Nov 22, 2013)

Given a number of, apparently,  throw-away comments over the course of the shoe so far; "high iron", the woman with the x-ray eye asking the pilot what had been done to him, etc. I'm afraid that I'm going to have to go with the android/cyborg theory. In fact, I'm going as far as to suggest that he will in some way be linked to Ultron in Avengers 2.


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## Kramodlog (Nov 22, 2013)

As cross promotion for the tv show?


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## darrell_uk (Nov 22, 2013)

Figuring the end of the TV show.


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## Derren (Nov 22, 2013)

Sadly this series is not what I expected. Except for maybe 2 episodes you hardly notice that it is Marvel. Just compare it for example with Arrow which is choke full of references. But here? A Fury cameo and 2 one shot- movie references, that was it.

But neither the protagonists nor the antagonists are tied to the marvel verse. I am also missing a continuous story which ties the episodes together. Yes, you have Coulson and the question about his ressurrection, but they drag that out too much. By now everyone understood that something fishy is going on, but they still only hint at that issue if it comes up at all. And the rest? Rising Tide appeared for a few episodes and vanished again, the Asgardians likely will to, etc.
In Arrow you had the list which was present in nearly every episode.

Imo the show also focuses a bit too much on the team and its members. That is actually a good thing but I find most of them pretty boring. So I am not exactly thrilled about hearing more about their feelings and histories.

I think some of the problems this series has is that it can only use a very limited amount of Marvel lore either because of rights issues with Fox and because of the entire setup where the Avengers are the only superpowered people on earth and can never meet Coulson so won't appear at all.


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## Rabulias (Nov 22, 2013)

Did anyone catch the _Dollhouse_ (another Joss Whedon show) reference in Coulson's dream?

He says: "Did I fall asleep?"

The masseuse replies: "For a little while."

This was the standard exchange when one of the "actives" (the "dolls" in _Dollhouse_) had had their mind wiped after a mission.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Nov 22, 2013)

Yup. I wonder if it's a red herring for Dollhouse fans (probably a large part of the Whedon fan faction), or it' a hint. Not sure if a lifemodel decoy couldn't be considered a "doll", however ,so... I'll just keep guessing.

Maybe he's really just Coulson, returned to life with some fancy tech perhaps, and everything that seems different is due to him coming back from the dead. Heck, maybe he was actually still dead when he was in Tahiti, and it's just his memories of a kind of afterlife, which would be a throwback to Buffy's resurrection with Willow's magic.


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## Umbran (Nov 22, 2013)

darrell_uk said:


> Given a number of, apparently,  throw-away comments over the course of the shoe so far; "high iron", the woman with the x-ray eye asking the pilot what had been done to him, etc. I'm afraid that I'm going to have to go with the android/cyborg theory. In fact, I'm going as far as to suggest that he will in some way be linked to Ultron in Avengers 2.




It would be a natural route to the Vision, who becomes a long-time Avenger.  And Coulson even kind of looks like the Vision.



Derren said:


> Sadly this series is not what I expected. Except for maybe 2 episodes you hardly notice that it is Marvel. Just compare it for example with Arrow which is choke full of references. But here? A Fury cameo and 2 one shot- movie references, that was it.




I don't know why you expected more.  They were pretty up-front that the show was going to be dealing with all the stuff the heroes *didn't*.



> I am also missing a continuous story which ties the episodes together.




"Monster of the week", episodic progress is common for new shows - it helps keep the barrier to entry down during the first season of a show.  You don't *have* two watch the first few episodes and can still jump in a bit later in the season.


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## Derren (Nov 22, 2013)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Heck, maybe he was actually still dead when he was in Tahiti, and it's just his memories of a kind of afterlife, which would be a throwback to Buffy's resurrection with Willow's magic.




Lost!


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## calronmoonflower (Nov 23, 2013)

Well if they downloaded his mind to a clone body or into an experiential LMD, then wouldn't that still be Coulson? After all there is more to being human that flesh and blood.


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## Jester David (Nov 23, 2013)

It's definitely coming off as a slow burn show. (Because that worked sooo well for _Dollhouse_). 

The last four or five episodes have been neat for really focusing on a single cast member, letting us get a better feel for the group. And there's the romantic tension as well as the growing question of what happened to Colson - if anything. There's some plots going on but I imagine they wanted to see if they nabbed a full season before going all-in with their big plotline.


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## Derren (Nov 27, 2013)

Another average "problem of the week" episode, this time focusing on Mei and explaining why she actually is a "big deal".
Still, the character interaction felt a bit forced to me, especially the constant tricking of people.

And while the next reference to Thor 2 was appreciated, again the episode failed to bring "Marvel" into the story. Imo thats also an issue because of the limited licenses the series has to operate under.
The enemy in this episode had 



Spoiler



Nightcrawler


 written all over him, but instead a random guy was invented which did not appear in Marvel before even just by name.
I have said it already but I want to mention again that Arrow does a much better job in integrating itself into DC as it has actual DC characters appearing in the show, even if most of them are heavy changed/toned down and often only recognizable by name. Still, that is better than what Agents of Shield does.


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## Crothian (Nov 27, 2013)

Arrow does a better job now in the second season but there were far less references in the first season and there were some internet threads on it last year with very similar complaints to what we are seeing here. I do think Arrow is the better show now especially since they are able to use more DC characters then before but last year I was not as entertained by it. Agents of Shield could easily turn out the same way but it's the internet so of course people are going to complain instead of just stop watching something they are obviously not enjoying.


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## Derren (Nov 28, 2013)

Crothian said:


> Arrow does a better job now in the second season but there were far less references in the first season and there were some internet threads on it last year with very similar complaints to what we are seeing here. I do think Arrow is the better show now especially since they are able to use more DC characters then before but last year I was not as entertained by it. Agents of Shield could easily turn out the same way but it's the internet so of course people are going to complain instead of just stop watching something they are obviously not enjoying.




Even the first season of Arrows had several notable DC characters. Deatshot, Deathstroke, etc. (See here http://screenrant.com/arrow-cw-dc-comics-characters-cameos-guest-stars/).

What did AoS have? A very short Nick Fury appearance, references to the Avangers and Thor 2 movies and an unknown Asgardian. Also no clear plot is visible. Arrow at least had the list. There was this organization in the beginning who extracted the powers of "superheroes" (perfect situation for an X-Men tie in, but again, license issues) but they vanished and we are left to "monster of the week" episodes and character exposition of characters which are imo not all that interesting as we have seen those archetypes a hundred times by now.


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## Nellisir (Nov 28, 2013)

This series needs a lot more first season Heroes and a lot less "Scooby-Doo".  I'm still watching because my wife is interested, but *yawn*.  I was hoping for something more like Heroes or Stormwatch: Team Achilles as a tv show.  Instead I get a lackluster Warehouse 13.  I'm still wondering where their budget is.


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## Richards (Nov 29, 2013)

The only problem I had with this episode was the stalker's power didn't mesh up with what had occurred earlier, when we were being led to believe that the safety inspector was causing the "telekinetic" action.  I had called an invisible guy as an alternate explanation, mere minutes before he first manifested in the background.  However, while an "invisible guy" could have easily thrown canned goods from the shelves in the store and set a police car into motion, I'm a little fuzzy about how a "guy who blinks back and forth between dimensions" was able to do that.  It was apparent from the fight scene with May at the end of the episode that he wasn't still physically present here on Earth whenever he "blinked" to the other dimension (she actually had lifted him over he head when he suddenly disappeared), so I'm a bit perplexed as to how he was responsible for the shenanigans at the beginning.

It seems like the writers were so focused on "make it look like these are telekinetic manifestations" that they forgot to ensure "these false telekinetic manifestations have to be plausible given the nature of the real powers involved."

Next episode looks good, with a return of Mike, "the Hooded Hero" from the first episode.  Although given that he has a young son, it's going to be a little problematic if Mike becomes a full-time part of the S.H.I.E.L.D. team.

Johnathan


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Nov 29, 2013)

Richards said:


> The only problem I had with this episode was the stalker's power didn't mesh up with what had occurred earlier, when we were being led to believe that the safety inspector was causing the "telekinetic" action.  I had called an invisible guy as an alternate explanation, mere minutes before he first manifested in the background.  However, while an "invisible guy" could have easily thrown canned goods from the shelves in the store and set a police car into motion, I'm a little fuzzy about how a "guy who blinks back and forth between dimensions" was able to do that.  It was apparent from the fight scene with May at the end of the episode that he wasn't still physically present here on Earth whenever he "blinked" to the other dimension (she actually had lifted him over he head when he suddenly disappeared), so I'm a bit perplexed as to how he was responsible for the shenanigans at the beginning.
> 
> It seems like the writers were so focused on "make it look like these are telekinetic manifestations" that they forgot to ensure "these false telekinetic manifestations have to be plausible given the nature of the real powers involved."
> 
> ...




I'd have to rewatch the scene, but wasn't the police car actually actively driving. I seem to remember turning wheels.


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## calronmoonflower (Dec 2, 2013)

*It came up eslewhere so I looked up info on the subject.*

Mutant Is A Four-Letter Word For 'Marvel's Agents Of S.H.I.E.L.D.'
Well this explains allot


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## Derren (Dec 2, 2013)

calronmoonflower said:


> Mutant Is A Four-Letter Word For 'Marvel's Agents Of S.H.I.E.L.D.'
> Well this explains allot




Thats what I have said a few posts above.
Mutants would be perfect for Agent of Shield. They are relatively low powered most of the time, numerous enough, do not step on the toes of the Avengers much and would fit in the already existing plot.
But there are licensing issues like with many other Marvel content.

But that they have a restrictive list of what they can use is even worse than what I would have expected. I think we can forget this show having any "Marvel" content in it besides mentioning the events of the accompanying movies (and maybe the Guardians movie too when it comes out). And at that point I wonder why this is even advertised as a Marvel show. And what else has the show to offer? The characters are not all that exceptional and Coulson can't pull it all alone (he isn't even pulling, just standing there and relying from his Avengers fame which is about to run out imo)


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## Bullgrit (Dec 4, 2013)

Another rerun. The second in this first season.

It's been many, many, many years since I've regularly watched a TV show in its "real time" run. The last time was the final season of _Buffy the Vampire Slayer_, (I didn't start watching it till its final season), and that season inserted many reruns in the middle of the "real time" plot. That confused me very much, as I didn't know those episodes were reruns. So this is a [re]new experience for me.

Is it common, nowadays, for TV shows to insert reruns during the season? Why do shows do this? Why do they show the preview for the next episode, but then next week show a rerun? It's pretty damn annoying.

Bullgrit


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## Kramodlog (Dec 4, 2013)

Bullgrit said:


> Is it common, nowadays, for TV shows to insert reruns during the season?



Yes, well on non-cable stations.



> Why do shows do this?



Around 20 new shows are made year, but there are more than 20 weeks in a TV fall/winter season. So they need fillers of sorts.



> Why do they show the preview for the next episode, but then next week show a rerun? It's pretty damn annoying.



Because you are still watching even if you are annoyed.


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## Janx (Dec 4, 2013)

goldomark said:


> Yes, well on non-cable stations.
> 
> Around 20 new shows are made year, but there are more than 20 weeks in a TV fall/winter season. So they need fillers of sorts.
> 
> Because you are still watching even if you are annoyed.




My DVR weeds out the re-runs, so it's mostly a problem for people who don't have DVRs.

If I didn't have a DVR, I probably wouldn't watch TV.


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## Herschel (Dec 4, 2013)

My main issue at this point is that there seems to be no chemistry building amongst the cast. When Min Na Wen's hyper-stoic character seems teh most accessible to the rest of the cast there's a problem. Fitz-Simmons is a distant second.


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## Derren (Dec 12, 2013)

Considering that this was supposed to be a mid season cliffhanger episode it was rather mediocre.


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## Cyclone_Joker (Dec 12, 2013)

Derren said:


> Sadly this series is not what I expected. Except for maybe 2 episodes you hardly notice that it is Marvel. Just compare it for example with Arrow which is choke full of references. But here? A Fury cameo and 2 one shot- movie references, that was it.



Yes, but many of the references in Arrow were just as terrible as the series is, and completely disrespectful to the source material. Also, you shouldn't need the call-backs. The series should stand on its own.

Personally, I've given it a good run, but I'm really not a fan. My biggest problem is Skye. Skye is annoying, whiny, sucks the attention from actually interesting things, and manages to remain on board after not only breaking into SHIELD crap frequently but also betraying the team. The whole "missing parents" thing is an entirely unnecessary level that adds nothing except give her more to whine about. Whenever that horrid character opens her mouth, I get flashbacks to Wesley Crusher and Crow.

I actually like most of the rest of the cast. There's real potential between Ward and the science guys, and Coulson is awesome even despite some rather odd behavior. It's really sad to see how horribly underutilized Wen is. I really think I'd start to enjoy the show if Skye got Tara'd in the next episode.


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## Derren (Dec 12, 2013)

Cyclone_Joker said:


> Yes, but many of the references in Arrow were just as terrible as the series is, and completely disrespectful to the source material. Also, you shouldn't need the call-backs. The series should stand on its own.




The thing is, Arrow didn't need those references but they were a nice addition. AoS on the other hand has nothing, not even that.

And disrespectful of the source material? Be honest, nothing gets retconed more than superheroes. Pretty much every superhero went through several completely different incarnations and multiple alternate reality versions.


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## Cyclone_Joker (Dec 12, 2013)

Derren said:


> The thing is, Arrow didn't need those references but they were a nice addition. AoS on the other hand has nothing, not even that.



When interesting characters get neutered, I don't consider it a plus.


> And disrespectful of the source material? Be honest, nothing gets retconed more than superheroes. Pretty much every superhero went through several completely different incarnations and multiple alternate reality versions.



That has nothing to do with the substance of anything I've said.

Honestly, Arrow is worse to Green Arrow than that horrible X-Men movie was to Deadpool. It's atrocious. It makes New 52 look well thought-out and well-written.


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## Derren (Feb 14, 2014)

Finally they get some Marvel into the series.


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## airwalkrr (Feb 15, 2014)

I've really enjoyed the series so far. I actually like the fact that it doesn't rehash a lot of old Marvel stuff. It's interesting to see new things pop up. This is SHIELD in the 2010s, not a reliving of old SHIELD comic stories. While there is a place for the revisiting of classic tales, it's great to see a studio that is willing to stick its neck out and do something fresh. Almost everything in the comic and gaming media these days is sequels and re-writes. New, original stories are exciting.


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## Bullgrit (Feb 24, 2014)

If this show gets bad ratings, it'll be because of the schedule. It's gotten to be a crap shoot each week whether we'll actually see the next episode. I, my wife, and my 13 year old son sit down for this every Tuesday night, and we've been frustrated several times with reruns instead of being shown the next part of the story. And we can't find the schedule online anywhere, so we don't know if it's a new episode this week until we turn it on. It's gotten to the point where if it wasn't for it being a family thing for us, I'd give up on it and just catch it a year from now when it's on Netflix or somewhere.

I don't watch much TV, so I don't know if this is a normal thing. The last TV show I watched regularly/weekly was _Star Trek: The Next Generation_. I got into _Buffy the Vampire Slayer_ during the last season, and that show did this same thing. Trying to follow what was going on drove me crazy because I didn't know I was seeing reruns sprinkled through the regular story. I watched _Buffy_ for about 10-12 weeks, and half of the airings were reruns.

Bullgrit


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## Crothian (Feb 24, 2014)

I just use the guide option on my cable and it tells me a description of the episode and when it first aired. It shows information up to two weeks out so  it is fairly easy and convenient to know if it is a rerun or not. This week it is not on and next week is new. The last few weeks were reruns because of the Olympics. I would say that going up against the number one show in TV (NCIS) is a bigger reason for ratings then these reruns.


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## Bullgrit (Mar 5, 2014)

*T.A.H.I.T.I.*

What the hell?! They want to get one of their team into a SHIELD medical facility, but the facility is classified and locked. So they kill two SHIELD (good guys!) guards to get in. THEY MURDER TWO MEN to save one of their team! Holy crap. The writer and director and whoever OKed this script/plot should be fired. Coulson's team is no longer good guys. What happened to the stun guns (night-night guns) they've used in previous episodes?

I watched this with my wife and 13 year old son, and we all were stunned by these murders. Not in a good way. We were all three saying, "This isn't like Coulson." This is supposed to be freakin' comic book-style stories, with good guys and bad guys and heroics. But this episode had the heroes straight up murdering other good guys who wouldn't let them into a secret good guy base without a password.

And this whole thing about Coulson wanting to die on the operating table, and being angry that he wasn't left dead, well, hell, he can kill himself right now. He seems angry that he's alive.

I'm not liking this show anymore.

Bullgrit


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## Kramodlog (Mar 5, 2014)

Things aren't always black and white. They rarely are actually.


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## Umbran (Mar 5, 2014)

Bullgrit said:


> And this whole thing about Coulson wanting to die on the operating table, and being angry that he wasn't left dead, well, hell, he can kill himself right now. He seems angry that he's alive.




I haven't been watching the show since episode 2 or 3.

But this sounds pretty realistic.  Anger or guilt at surviving when one feels one should not have is a pretty well-known phenomenon, even if the situation at hand isn't exactly a real-world thing.

And, "he can kill himself right now" is a glib thing to say.  Suicide is physiologically complicated. One can be angry at having survived, but still not willing to outright commit suicide.


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## Bullgrit (Mar 5, 2014)

Umbran said:
			
		

> But this sounds pretty realistic. Anger or guilt at surviving when one feels one should not have is a pretty well-known phenomenon, even if the situation at hand isn't exactly a real-world thing.
> 
> And, "he can kill himself right now" is a glib thing to say. Suicide is physiologically complicated. One can be angry at having survived, but still not willing to outright commit suicide.



Yeah, I understand the phenomenon. But it doesn't seem to fit Coulson's situation. It's not like he survived a plane crash that everyone else didn't. He was injured, and doctors saved him, brought him back from [-]the brink of[/-] death. That's what they do. His issue now seems to be that at the time, he was asking to be allowed to die, but they didn't let him. He's angry that doctors didn't listen to his giving up while in great pain, and now he's alive and well. But you know what, doctors do that all the time.

My father had severe complications from surgery, and one day was in great pain. I was in the room while the doctors and nurses worked to save him, while he was saying, "Just let me go. This is too much. Just let me go." But they eased the pain and saved his life. Though he lived less than a year longer, he wasn't angry at the docs for disregarding his pain induced surrender.

I could understand Coulson being angry at the direct memory manipulation, but angry at them saving his life? And then he murders two people in order to use the exact same life saving medications to save the life of one of his team?

Again: His team murdered two people. Not bad guys, not in self defense, not by accident. Straight up murder of guards at a medical facility. Coulson didn't consider those two guards' lives of value compared to saving his team member. That makes Coulson not a good guy (in the comic book hero sense).

Bullgrit


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## RangerWickett (Mar 5, 2014)

They weren't SHIELD agents, if I recall correctly, since it wasn't a SHIELD facility. And those guys were shooting at Coulson and crew, who warned them that they would defend themselves. It wasn't like they went in there planning to kill people.

That said, I think the nightnight gun probably should have been mentioned. If the gun didn't exist on the show (and I'm on the fence here whether it should), I'd have had no problem with them infiltrating this mysterious location and defending themselves with violent force. But since they wanted to go for a PG rating, yeah, you shoot badguys and knock them out, and if you fire a missile at a tank the driver jumps out just before it hits.

It could have been something as simple as Ward tries to shoot the nightnight gun, misses, and takes a bullet in his flak vest from return fire, so Bill Paxton says, "Screw this," and guns the defenders down.


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## Bullgrit (Mar 5, 2014)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> They weren't SHIELD agents, if I recall correctly, since it wasn't a SHIELD facility. And those guys were shooting at Coulson and crew, who warned them that they would defend themselves. It wasn't like they went in there planning to kill people.



It's the facility where SHIELD docs revived Coulson. The team learned of the place from SHIELD records -- remember, SHIELD calls it the "Guest House." I thought I saw SHIELD logos in the place. (At least SHIELD fonts on the various labels.) 

Coulson and crew went in heavily armed, hacked their way in the front door and the foyer door, and the guards fired on them once they were completely inside as intruders. That's what guards are supposed to do. Also, Coulson even mentioned, when they were gearing up, "We need the doctors alive." I guess, screw the guards, they aren't of use to us.

Just overall, this thing feels *very* out of character for what _Agents of SHIELD_ is supposed to be like. Coulson and crew have shown more concern for actual enemies/criminals. Remember the previous episode, where they invaded Quinn's house where he had shot Sky? Ward went in with the night-night gun blazing. This was just wrong. Incongruent.

Bullgrit


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## Crothian (Mar 5, 2014)

They repeatedly said it was not Shield. They repeatedly said that the doctors in the shield records did not exist. They could not have made it clearer that it was not Shield. Coulson tried to do it the peaceful way but the guards followed their orders to kill anyone with out the pass phrase. 

I hope it was Sword. That would be cool to have them in this.


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## Ahnehnois (Mar 6, 2014)

I thought it was strange, particularly given that they were apparently debating the morals of executing a captured murderer in one scenario, but apparently gave no thought whatsoever to these people guarding the base. I would not call them good guys, but certainly they were not as bad as the prisoner they were agonizing over.

Then again, the whole setup was very odd. What kind of base has only two people guarding it, and has them both awake and in the same room and at the same time? That doesn't seem like it would work very well.

I'm also not clear on why it was so bad that the drugs were coming from some dismembered blue guy. People get transplants all the time. Obviously, keeping the creature captive, if it was even alive, was a problem, but the team was willing to murder people to get to him so it seems odd that Coulson was so sickened by this revelation.

And of course, there's always the perpetual question of why Fury is obstructing this, why he first feels the need to farm out his secret sketchy medical research but then even knowing what Coulson is doing does not call them up to either let them know to cooperate or to tell them to trash the place first. His behavior always seems to be to just create obstacles for everyone.

On the whole this scenario just felt like something that must have made sense to the writers based on some mythology but really seemed incoherent to me.


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## Elf Witch (Mar 6, 2014)

I sill admit I was a little angry at the killing of the  guards who were only doing their jobs especailly since they have technology like the night night gun that just stuns. Why were those men lives worth less than Skye's.

I do understand Coulson anger. I don't think he wants to be dead now. I think some of his anger is that they hid what he had been through from him for so long and that they basically experimented on him. Who knows what side effects this is going to cause down the line what price he may have and now Skye may have to pay.


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## Rabulias (Mar 6, 2014)

Crothian said:


> I hope it was Sword. That would be cool to have them in this.




It would also go well with 



Spoiler



the remains of the Kree body Coulson discovered


.

At least I think that's what it was. If I'm right, more than likely it will tie into 



Spoiler



the Guardians of the Galaxy movie


.


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## JRRNeiklot (Mar 6, 2014)

Elf Witch said:


> I sill admit I was a little angry at the killing of the  guards who were only doing their jobs especailly since they have technology like the night night gun that just stuns. Why were those men lives worth less than Skye's.




They were men who wouldn't let someone in in a medical emergency.  But then, I guess I'm evil because I'd murder half the planet to save my daughter.


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## calronmoonflower (Mar 6, 2014)

Anyone going to mention the "guest". Personally I think it might have been, 



Spoiler



An alien!


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Mar 6, 2014)

Killing the two guards was also a bit problematic for me. Killing two persons to save one... Sounds dubious. Spock would not approve.


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## JRRNeiklot (Mar 6, 2014)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Killing the two guards was also a bit problematic for me. Killing two persons to save one... Sounds dubious. Spock would not approve.




But Kirk would.


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## Crothian (Mar 6, 2014)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Killing the two guards was also a bit problematic for me. Killing two persons to save one... Sounds dubious. Spock would not approve.




Sylar Spock would


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## GMforPowergamers (Mar 7, 2014)

I sometimes am aghast when I realize that Elan logic holds true.

"Yea, people I know the name of aren't dieing"


[sblock=other comic info] I heard Sword was off limits as an X men tie in, but it could be armor... I would love to see all three used in the show if possible though...[/sblock]


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## Elf Witch (Mar 7, 2014)

JRRNeiklot said:


> They were men who wouldn't let someone in in a medical emergency.  But then, I guess I'm evil because I'd murder half the planet to save my daughter.




The guards had no proof that there was a medical emergency it could have been a ploy to get into the base. Faking needing help is one of the oldest tactics in the book.


I would do the same for my son that is human nature but does change the fact that those men didn't deserve to die.


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## Crothian (Mar 7, 2014)

For all we know it could have been an AIM or Hydra base, too.


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## Morrus (Mar 7, 2014)

JRRNeiklot said:


> They were men who wouldn't let someone in in a medical emergency.  But then, I guess I'm evil because I'd murder half the planet to save my daughter.




I'm no ethical expert, but I think mass genocide definitely qualifies as evil!


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## JRRNeiklot (Mar 7, 2014)

Elf Witch said:


> The guards had no proof that there was a medical emergency it could have been a ploy to get into the base. Faking needing help is one of the oldest tactics in the book.
> 
> 
> I would do the same for my son that is human nature but does change the fact that those men didn't deserve to die.




Deserve?  Deserve's got nothin' to do with it.


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## JRRNeiklot (Mar 7, 2014)

Morrus said:


> I'm no ethical expert, but I think mass genocide definitely qualifies as evil!




That may be, but so does standing there watching someone you love die when you can fix them.


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## Elf Witch (Mar 8, 2014)

JRRNeiklot said:


> That may be, but so does standing there watching someone you love die when you can fix them.




It is evil if you kill innocents to save your loved one. Say your daughter needs a heart transplant if you go out and murder a person who is a match that is evil. Your daughter's life is not more important in the grand scheme of things that the life of the person you took to save her. Of course it is to you but that person has parents who feel the same way. 

If these guards work for an evil group then I might be able to understand it except as far as we know Coulson didn't know that and that makes what he did in my book wrong.


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## Morrus (Mar 8, 2014)

JRRNeiklot said:


> That may be, but so does standing there watching someone you love die when you can fix them.




Whether you happen to love them or not isn't relevant to the evilness of the act. In fact, I suppose it could even be argued that if you loved them, then there's an element of self-interest in your murder of strangers, making it even more evil.


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## calronmoonflower (Mar 9, 2014)

*Wild Mass Guessing time.*

Alright, consider that immediately after the Guest House was destroyed an Asguardian showed up. Also the actual base dates back to WWII. It is possible that she was a guest at the facility that was captured, also with other Asguardians, after being sent to Earth to investigate the use of the cosmic cube by HYDRA. It could also be that the facility is related to the various super soldier projects that the government tried after the super soldier serum.

Alternately it could actually be gamma base, with the guest house being the prison part of the base. As such it would not be a direct part of SHIELD.


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## JRRNeiklot (Mar 10, 2014)

Elf Witch said:


> It is evil if you kill innocents to save your loved one. Say your daughter needs a heart transplant if you go out and murder a person who is a match that is evil. Your daughter's life is not more important in the grand scheme of things that the life of the person you took to save her. Of course it is to you but that person has parents who feel the same way.
> 
> If these guards work for an evil group then I might be able to understand it except as far as we know Coulson didn't know that and that makes what he did in my book wrong.




The thing is, they didn't just go out and murder someone.  They asked for help, and were denied, so they entered anyway.  Then they came under fire and returned it in kind.   So I don't see it as an evil act.  An unlawful act, sure.



> Your daughter's life is not more important in the grand scheme of things that the life of the person you took to save her. Of course it is to you but that person has parents who feel the same way.




Absolutely.  And I'd hope it never came to that, but I have ONE job in life, and that is to protect my family.  Evil/good, doesn't really come into play.


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## Morrus (Mar 10, 2014)

JRRNeiklot said:


> Absolutely.  And I'd hope it never came to that, but I have ONE job in life, and that is to protect my family.  Evil/good, doesn't really come into play.




So if your daughter needed a transplant, and no volunteers were forthcoming, you would murder a stranger for their organ(s)?

I mean, evil/good does come into play -- that is definitely evil.

I'd argue that you *don't* only have only job in life; and that your responsibility to society outweighs your responsibility towards any individual person, no matter how strong your emotions towards that person are. And abdicating that responsibility is a choice.

Of course it's all silly hypothetical debate. I don't imagine anybody really knows how they'll act in extreme situations until they happen - and fortunately for most of us they are unlikely to happen.


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## Kramodlog (Mar 10, 2014)

Whelp, someone needs to wear a shield of some sorts.


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## Elf Witch (Mar 10, 2014)

JRRNeiklot said:


> The thing is, they didn't just go out and murder someone.  They asked for help, and were denied, so they entered anyway.  Then they came under fire and returned it in kind.   So I don't see it as an evil act.  An unlawful act, sure.
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely.  And I'd hope it never came to that, but I have ONE job in life, and that is to protect my family.  Evil/good, doesn't really come into play.





I disagree. They had the technology to try a non lethal approach and they didn't even try. That was what bothered me the most. And again these men were doing their job they had not one shred of proof other than these armed men word that it was an medical emergency. The doctors were not even there. If we were watching a show and the bad guys used this ruse to get into the good guys medical research center we would be saying the guards were stupid to have let them in. Like I said a ruse of a medical emergency is one of the oldest in the book. I really hope there is going to be some consequences for what they did. Otherwise to me it will be bad story telling where it reduces the guards to expendable red shirts whose lives don't count. Mainly because the writers didn't want to deal with them afterwards. 

Dr Who has done this where they race in and only save the companion and leave the rest to their fates it drives me crazy that they don't even try.

I disagree on this as well I am a mother and I love my son and if I had to I would kill for him even if I knew it was evil to do so. Your motivation might be noble saving your child but the act is evil.


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## Nellisir (Mar 10, 2014)

JRRNeiklot said:


> Absolutely.  And I'd hope it never came to that, but I have ONE job in life, and that is to protect my family.  Evil/good, doesn't really come into play.




Motivationally, that's fine. But it doesn't absolve you of responsibility, and it doesn't make it a good or noble act.

My job, as a man with a family, is to make the world a better place for my family.


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## tomBitonti (Mar 10, 2014)

While there was a lot of dramatic action, I thought the show was terribly weak.  I did like the bits of story development: 



Spoiler



Questions about DeathLock, and questions about what "G.H." and "T.A.H.I.T.I" mean.  Also, the dilemma of whether to save Skye or not, because that was the Oracle's whole plan in having her shot.



But:

The base defenses were laughable.  If you put actual guards in place, wouldn't you give them control over opening the front door?  Or, give them a button to push that would do a physical lock down?

Having just two guards, both up at the same time, doesn't make any sense.

Giving the guards keys to everything inside, what?  At least, if they had keys in case of an emergency, they wouldn't carry those extra keys around.

Killing the guards was wrong.  Maybe, they worked for the bad guys.  But, there is nothing to indicate that in the show.  They were just in the way.

While Coulson was being treated, was the 



Spoiler



blue alien looking dude


 the reason why he wanted to be let die?  Did they review the drug production protocol in detail to him?  How did he know very much at all about the treatment process?

The interaction between the two teams was strange.  Unless SHIELD has a very loose command structure, no way that could go down that way.  And, working outside of command doesn't work for folks on a plane needing regular resupply and maintenance.  Just wouldn't work.

This episode really made my brain hurt.

Thx!

TomB


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## Nellisir (Mar 10, 2014)

tomBitonti said:


> The interaction between the two teams was strange.  Unless SHIELD has a very loose command structure, no way that could go down that way.  And, working outside of command doesn't work for folks on a plane needing regular resupply and maintenance.  Just wouldn't work.




It's a magic plane. It gets anywhere, and lands anywhere, in 10 minutes. Probably runs on unleaded, so they just pull up to an Exxon and Skye hacks the pumps to deliver $10,000 worth of gas. This show makes me really glad Heroes is coming back.


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## GMforPowergamers (Mar 11, 2014)

tomBitonti said:


> The interaction between the two teams was strange.  Unless SHIELD has a very loose command structure, no way that could go down that way.  And, working outside of command doesn't work for folks on a plane needing regular resupply and maintenance.  Just wouldn't work.




I think that it works when you think it through as 2 equal team leads (who were friends) having different orders but able to work through it...


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## trappedslider (Mar 11, 2014)

http://www.fool.com/investing/gener...ents-of-shields-ratings-might-not-matter.aspx interesting read


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## Scott DeWar (Mar 12, 2014)

Ok, finally getting this on Hulu. both opposing forces meet, shield tried peaceful discourse, the 2 guards fired first.


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