# Coming in May: Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes! [UPDATED!]



## Morrus (Feb 5, 2018)

The next book (both covers - standard and special edition - shown below) is a monster book/multiverse guide called _Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes_. On Monday the official press release will be coming with more information. Amusingly, the books that Mike Mearls and Nathan Stewart held up in today's "Fireside Chat" said "Tomb of Foes"; fortunately these are just mockups and the book is still being worked on for a May release. More info on Monday! *[5 FEB UPDATED WITH PRESS ANNOUNCEMENT]*




​
*
(2nd Feb) Discover the truth about the great conflicts of the D&D multiverse in this supplement for the world's greatest roleplaying game.*

This tome is built on the writings of the renowned wizard from the world of Greyhawk, gathered over a lifetime of research and scholarship. In his travels to other realms and other planes of existence, he has made many friends, and has risked his life an equal number of times, to amass the knowledge contained herein. In addition to Mordenkainen's musings on the endless wars of the multiverse, the book contains game statistics for dozens of monsters: new demons and devils, several varieties of elves and duergar, and a vast array of other creatures from throughout the planes of existence.

*$49.95 / May 29th, 2018 / 256 pages, hardcover
*_(pagecount updated to 256; confirmed by WotC's Jeremy Crawford)_



​

It's already available for pre-order over on Amazon.

*What we know in no particular order *(thanks to various posters below):

130+ pages of monsters
Structurally similar to_ Volo's Guide to Monsters_
"Conflict-themed"
Blood War, Githzerai vs Githyanki, elves vs drow, dwarves vs. duergar, other planar conflicts; also under dark vs planar conflicts such a Gith vs Mindflayers.
Greyhawk is the primary example for the core race lore
At least half the monsters are CR 10 or above
Advice on running high CR monsters
Focus on cosmological conflicts
Gith, mindflayers, drow, elves, elastin, shadar-kai as an elven sub-race, sea elves
Shadar Kai gain Trance, Fey Ancestory, Keen Senses, Elvish, (they had Darkvision already), and a 700 year life span (or more)
Many monsters are Shadowfell-related
Guide to Planes for DMs
Planar subraces
Backgrounds for tieflings
8 tiefling subraces: Zariel, Mephosilies, Belzebub, Feirna/Beliel, Glaysa, Levisitus, Dispater, Mammon
Cultists (abyssal and infernal)
Archedevil and demon cults
Devil society, hierarchy, government, bureaucracy
All common races except humans touched on
Shemeska the Maurader
Leviathan as an Elder Elemental that is Tarrasque level
Playable Mindflayers will never, ever be a thing in D&D
​Plenty of random tables for both DMs and players
​Clockwork constructs built by gnomes
Gnome invention table
Non-humanoid eldarin
New yugoloths
​Elves have so many different forms because they used to be shapeshifters before their fall from being Fey

*UPDATES (5th Feb)! The announcement from WotC has arrived.

*One of the most powerful wizards in the _Dungeons & Dragons_ multiverse shares some of his hard-won knowledge with fans in a new book full of lore and monsters for D&D fifth edition. Mordenkainen’s Tome of Foes is available everywhere on May 29, but you can pick up a limited alternative cover in game stores on May 18, 2018.

Mordenkainen hails from the City of Greyhawk, but over the eons he has expanded his mastery of the major conflicts in the multiverse. Similar to 2016’s Volo’s Guide to Monsters, _Mordenkainen’s Tome of Foes_ not only contains everything you need to run challenging new monsters at the table with your friends but also provides tons of storytelling information on some of the most contentious relationships in the multiverse. You’ll learn more about the schism between drow and other elves, githyanki and githzerai, and dwarves and duergar, in addition to reading about the incessant Blood War between demons and devils.

Players will love to delve into _Mordenkainen’s Tome of Foes_ to search for story hooks to use with their characters, as well as try out some of the player options for races like tieflings and elves, or maybe an otherworldly githyanki or githzerai. Dungeon Masters looking for inspiration and greater challenges for players who have reached higher levels of play will find much to explore in Tome of Foes.

Look for _Mordenkainen’s Tome of Foes_ in your local game store on May 18! Otherwise, you can pick it up on May 29, and start adding new monsters and lore nuggets to your D&D sessions.


[video=youtube;r93sKXCvXQ4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r93sKXCvXQ4[/video]​

A transcript of the above video can be found here.













​

From artist Jason Rainville is the gorgeous wraparound cover art, along with some closeups.























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## hawkeyefan (Feb 2, 2018)

My guess would be an NPC Guide type of book. Stats for named enemies including lots of long established NPCs. 

That's what I'd like it to be, anyway. I guess we'll find out Monday.


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## BMaC (Feb 2, 2018)

At the end of the stream Stewart said, "Not a Monster Manual 3."


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## Ghost2020 (Feb 2, 2018)

Looks like Tomb of Foes....
Typo in the mockup?!  
LOL sheesh!


Still, cool! Looking forward to this one. I loved the 4e Manual of the Planes, hopefully this will be in that same vein.


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## Demetrios1453 (Feb 2, 2018)

As I asked in the other thread, can anyone read the small print descriptions?

Also, the cover art pretty much confirms it's Planar, from the orrery theme to the wheel of Outer Planar glyphs around Mordenkanen's head. So high level planar creatures and lords?

Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app


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## darjr (Feb 2, 2018)

Tomb is a typo. The video will get archived soon.

It was the wrong mockup, wonder what the real one looks like.


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## Vexorg (Feb 2, 2018)

So WotC feels comfortable releasing two rules expansions a year now? Interesting. 

Also, this sounds like a DM-only monster manual expansion, rather than a setting book or player-usable book like Volo's.


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## Vexorg (Feb 2, 2018)

Edit: You're right deme, looks planar.


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## darjr (Feb 2, 2018)

Morrus had a typo too!  Tomb of Foes


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## Ralif Redhammer (Feb 2, 2018)

If there’s planar information, as this seems to imply (along with the orrery-like art in the mock-up), I’ll be all-in.

Those runes look familiar, too. Have we seen them before?

Edited to add: Although, now that I think about it, the term multiverse, and the Greyhawk reference, could also mean it’s about settings other than the Realms, not necessarily the planes.



Morrus said:


> Discover the truth about the great conflicts of the D&D multiverse in this supplement for the world's greatest roleplaying game.


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## Morrus (Feb 2, 2018)

darjr said:


> Tomb is a typo. The video will get archived soon.
> 
> It was the wrong mockup, wonder what the real one looks like.




I imagine it looks like that picture up there!


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## darjr (Feb 2, 2018)

Someone needs to deceiver the runes!


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## vecna00 (Feb 2, 2018)

Yep. 100% down for this.


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## pming (Feb 2, 2018)

_EDIT: Never mind. Pointless post. I should learn to not post before my coffee! _


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Feb 2, 2018)

Vexorg said:


> Also, this sounds like a DM-only monster manual expansion, rather than a setting book or player-usable book like Volo's.




This would surprise me, since it would limit the sales. It if is multi-planar, as it sounds, I am betting there will be new sub-races and sub-classes and maybe feats and spells as well, all presented with their preferred setting as well as being usable in any D&D world.


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## hawkeyefan (Feb 2, 2018)

Okay....so there are already product descriptions that give us a good idea. Not an NPC guide as I guessed based solely on the name, but more of a mix of a planar guide and a planar monster manual. 

Very cool! Sounds like it will detail things like the Blood War and other planar conflicts.


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## darjr (Feb 2, 2018)

I was going to ask where you got that but found it!

A super hi res too.


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## lowkey13 (Feb 2, 2018)

*Deleted by user*


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## Charlaquin (Feb 2, 2018)

Based on recent D&D Beyond interviews, I’m expecting we’ll get info on the Gith vs. Illithid conflict, the Corellon vs. Gruumsh vs. Lolth conflict among others. New Race options ate mentioned, which I’m sure means the Gith race and various elf subraces that we’ve seen in UA. Fingers crossed that one of the conflicts covered is Eberron’s Last War, which would be an excuse to get Warforged in an official published product at least, and maybe some other Eberron races as well. I would be thrilled if Nentir Vale’s Dawn War gets a mention. That would actually be a good excuse for them to include the Shadar-Kai, since they really have little to no connection to the Corellon/Gruumsh/Lolth conflict but are closely tied to the Raven Queen, who is from that pantheon originally.


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## lkj (Feb 2, 2018)

Charlaquin said:


> Based on recent D&D Beyond interviews, I’m expecting we’ll get info on the Gith vs. Illithid conflict, the Corellon vs. Gruumsh vs. Lolth conflict among others. New Race options ate mentioned, which I’m sure means the Gith race and various elf subraces that we’ve seen in UA. Fingers crossed that one of the conflicts covered is Eberron’s Last War, which would be an excuse to get Warforged in an official published product at least, and maybe some other Eberron races as well. I would be thrilled if Nentir Vale’s Dawn War gets a mention. That would actually be a good excuse for them to include the Shadar-Kai, since they really have little to no connection to the Corellon/Gruumsh/Lolth conflict but are closely tied to the Raven Queen, who is from that pantheon originally.




I'm thinking Eberron doesn't get much attention in this book. I think Mike was hinting strongly at that in the stream when he said that Mordenkainen would probably tell you that Eberron was a myth. He went on for a bit about how hard it is to get to Eberron, that not everyone is sure it really exists.

But I also think this is because they are going to announce an Eberron book this summer. They hinted at it. Stewart even went as far as to say 'I'm not going to talk about that right now' when he saw an Eberron question on the chat.

Now, could be I'm wrong and Eberron isn't planned for a year. But it would seem odd that they would basically tease Eberron only to say "you're not getting any Eberron". More likely that we're not getting it now but we'll get our fill before the end of the year.

Mind you, I'm totally just speculating wildly. Because they also both said that they are really excited about this year and that they would be announcing things that we wouldn't expect.

So. We'll see. All in good fun regardless!

AD


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## Mouseferatu (Feb 2, 2018)

I assume it's inevitable that there'll be large swathes of text devoted to the Blood War.

But I'll buy the book anyway.


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## lkj (Feb 2, 2018)

Probably also worth mentioning that they teased some big announcements for DM's Guild in the coming months that they seemed excited about. I'm guessing, based on the conversation, that they will be opening up additional properties beyond FR and Ravenloft. 

AD


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## generic (Feb 2, 2018)

Cool product, my guess is that it will give us not only nice maps of planar areas as well as details and more races, it will also give us stat blocks for creatures who are planar rulers.


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## MechaTarrasque (Feb 2, 2018)

Definitely on my want list.  My only concern is that if they made a planar book, I was hoping for some more celestials, and the title and descriptions are not inspiring in that regard.


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## BMaC (Feb 2, 2018)

Twelve octavos, exact same length as Xanathar's.  Also, the use of greatest conflicts in the multiverse gives me a glimmer of hope that there is some proper high level material for 5e finally.


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## Irda Ranger (Feb 2, 2018)

Hmmmmm. I guess we'll see when we get more information on Monday. I wasn't exactly chomping at the bit for more demon types or elf sub-races.


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## Prakriti (Feb 2, 2018)

EDIT: Misread the product description. This book is 192 pages, not 292. 

EDIT #2: The book is actually 256 pages, according to Jeremy Crawford on Twitter.


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## neobolts (Feb 2, 2018)

"Not monster manual 3" is good. I hope it functions for both players and DMs...a sort of "Mordenkainen's Guide to Planehopping" (which would be a better and more whimsical title)


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## kenmarable (Feb 2, 2018)

lkj said:


> Probably also worth mentioning that they teased some big announcements for DM's Guild in the coming months that they seemed excited about. I'm guessing, based on the conversation, that they will be opening up additional properties beyond FR and Ravenloft.
> 
> AD




I'm extremely excited about that! In fact, when someone asked if the changes would be "more WotC products or policy changes that would help publishers", he said it wouldn't be WotC, and that the changes (plural, I did pay attention to that) would "open up more options for content" or something very close to that. Now, it could mean a lot of different things, but opening up DMs Guild to more settings - Planescape in particular - is at the top of my wish list.


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## Charlaquin (Feb 2, 2018)

lkj said:


> I'm thinking Eberron doesn't get much attention in this book. I think Mike was hinting strongly at that in the stream when he said that Mordenkainen would probably tell you that Eberron was a myth. He went on for a bit about how hard it is to get to Eberron, that not everyone is sure it really exists.
> 
> But I also think this is because they are going to announce an Eberron book this summer. They hinted at it. Stewart even went as far as to say 'I'm not going to talk about that right now' when he saw an Eberron question on the chat.
> 
> ...



Ahh, I didn’t watch the stream, but what you say makes sense.


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## MechaTarrasque (Feb 2, 2018)

When Volo's came out, I was amused by the notion of unreliable narrators and deniability (if they later decided to do something at odds with the text in Volo's, well obviously Volo was wrong).  The Big M isn't as unreliable as Volo, but he also isn't omniscient either, so they can do the same here; it fits the "rulings over rules" ideal--it isn't WotC saying this is the only way to do it, but one NPC saying it.


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## Morrus (Feb 2, 2018)

Prakriti said:


> EDIT: Misread the product description. This book is 192 pages, not 292. Meh... I'll pass.




It's actually 256, turns out.


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## Parmandur (Feb 2, 2018)

neobolts said:


> "Not monster manual 3" is good. I hope it functions for both players and DMs...a sort of "Mordenkainen's Guide to Planehopping" (which would be a better and more whimsical title)



By "not MM3," pretty sure they meant "this is the MM3, but we don't use names like that."


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## Parmandur (Feb 2, 2018)

Biggest surprise to me is the mention of the Duereger. Wonder if other Dwarves get some love, too...?


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## kenmarable (Feb 2, 2018)

Ralif Redhammer said:


> Those runes look familiar, too. Have we seen them before?.






darjr said:


> Someone needs to deceiver the runes!




They are symbols of the Outer Planes.

From 5e PHB

From 2e Planescape Campaign Setting original boxed set


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## Parmandur (Feb 2, 2018)

Morrus said:


> It's actually 256, turns out.



Nice; the leaked information was wrong on that count, then.


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## Tales and Chronicles (Feb 2, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Biggest surprise to me is the mention of the Duereger. Wonder if other Dwarves get some love, too...?




I wish that, if the Nentir Vale got some coverage in this book, we may receive the Forgeborn dwarves. They are a bloodline of dwarves who stayed prisoner of the giants (which are servant to the primordial/elemental lords) for too long and are tainted by chaos energy.
Maybe we'll have Urdunnir, Azer and Eisk Jaat.


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## ccs (Feb 2, 2018)

Yay, it's not psionics!


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## TerraDave (Feb 2, 2018)

Looks cool. Tip to EGG is nice.

Of course, it would be natural to follow this up with a true (multi) planar AP. That doesn't mean we will get it.


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## GarrettKP (Feb 2, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Nice; the leaked information was wrong on that count, then.




That or they changed the number count to avoid cutting some content. Either way, can't complain about MORE content so I am happy!


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## Hutchimus Prime (Feb 2, 2018)

I wonder if we could even see some info on the Shade/Cormyr/Myth Drannor War from the Sundering with info on Shades and War of the Lance from Dragonlance with info on Draconians?


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## darjr (Feb 2, 2018)

TerraDave said:


> Looks cool. Tip to EGG is nice.
> 
> Of course, it would be natural to follow this up with a true (multi) planar AP. That doesn't mean we will get it.




Patience. Remember the AP that came out after Volos Dinosaurs? Patience.


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## Shemeska (Feb 2, 2018)

*eyebrow*


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## darjr (Feb 2, 2018)

It just seems to be a bit of a pattern


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## vecna00 (Feb 2, 2018)

darjr said:


> It just seems to be a bit of a pattern




There are patterns within patterns, my friend....but, I think this could be the first time that a product released earlier in the year could tie-in with products later in the year.  This is provided we get more planar or even more setting/multiverse stuff this year.  

This is the fun type of speculation!


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## EternalRain (Feb 2, 2018)

Cool - maybe we will get some Archdevils


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## RoninLoganX (Feb 2, 2018)

If we do get sub-races, I'm hoping for those Tiefling Subraces we saw in a recent UA


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## MechaTarrasque (Feb 2, 2018)

I could see a chapter on "cosmic conflict and your campaign world."  Something like:  1) Cosmic Conflict Largely Happened Millennia Ago (example Nethir Vale and Greek mythology), 2) Cosmic Conflict sporadically touches the mortal world (example Eberron), 3) Cosmic Conflict is ongoing (example the Blood War), 4) End Times Cosmic Conflict is Coming (example Norse mythology), and 5) Cosmic Conflict Ended Recently and World Sucks (example Dark Sun).  [There probably isn't much need for Cosmic Conflict Ended Recently and World has Never Been Better.]  There are some subtle (and not so subtle) differences in how you would play hostile outsiders based on those scenarios:  the fiend who is hiding from the Forces of [Good/Law/whatever] and only causing trouble if it can't get caught vs. the fiend who thinks its time is now and has no problem running around causing trouble.....


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## vecna00 (Feb 2, 2018)

RoninLoganX said:


> If we do get sub-races, I'm hoping for those Tiefling Subraces we saw in a recent UA




That's my assumption.


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## rgoodbb (Feb 2, 2018)

Are there any Gaj? What about a Cilops or two? There must be a Cilops. No? OK, Mekillots? Realy? No Mekillots. Muls, Thri-Kreen, Poison-wielding Halfling-Mo-Foe's, Elf Dune-Runners, Half Giants, Obsidian, Defiling/Preserving Silt Runners? .....................No?...City Templars of the Sorcerer Kings.......If there are no Templars........Oh......I guess........Try again next year.....I suppose....Or the Year afterward.

Campaign: #DarkSunLives. (There really is no hashtag. I don't even know what hashtag really means. (but there should be)).


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## Mortellan (Feb 2, 2018)

Between Tales and now this Tome of Foes, at what point is Greyhawk fair game for DMSGUILD? Asking for a friend lol


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## Parmandur (Feb 2, 2018)

Mortellan said:


> Between Tales and now this Tome of Foes, at what point is Greyhawk fair game for DMSGUILD? Asking for a friend lol



They did say there would be announcements regarding the DMs Guild.


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## Parmandur (Feb 2, 2018)

rgoodbb said:


> Are there any Gaj? What about a Cilops or two? There must be a Cilops. No? OK, Mekillots? Realy? No Mekillots. Muls, Thri-Kreen, Poison-wielding Halfling-Mo-Foe's, Elf Dune-Runners, Half Giants, Obsidian, Defiling/Preserving Silt Runners? .....................No?...City Templars of the Sorcerer Kings.......If there are no Templars........Oh......I guess........Try again next year.....I suppose....Or the Year afterward.
> 
> Campaign: #DarkSunLives. (There really is no hashtag. I don't even know what hashtag really means. (but there should be)).



Sooner or later, they keep talking about it.


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## Jester David (Feb 2, 2018)

Another terrible name. It sounds more like a generic Monster Manual 2 than a book you’d look to for information on the multiverse. 

I'm also tired of special covers. Two in a row? They have ceased to be special.


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## darjr (Feb 2, 2018)

Here is the YouTube link
[video=youtube;t2GsBra3Z2M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2GsBra3Z2M&feature=youtu.be[/video]
https://youtu.be/t2GsBra3Z2M


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## vecna00 (Feb 2, 2018)

darjr said:


> Here is the YouTube link
> 
> https://youtu.be/t2GsBra3Z2M




That was fast! It normally takes 24 hours.


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## pming (Feb 2, 2018)

Hiya!

Had my coffee. I'm ready to get my Curmudgeon-Grognarditis flaring up again... 



hawkeyefan said:


> Okay....so there are already product descriptions that give us a good idea. Not an NPC guide as I guessed based solely on the name, but more of a mix of a planar guide and a planar monster manual.
> 
> Very cool! Sounds like it will detail things like the Blood War and other planar conflicts.




This is specific and it specifically pre-empts (?) many, _many_, DM's campaigns where it doesn't exist (mine), or has been resoloved/changed (friends). Anything on a "Blood War" is wasted space that is too campaign-specific to be useful in a, supposedly, 'generic' book for a DM to use.




Charlaquin said:


> Based on recent D&D Beyond interviews, I’m expecting we’ll get info on the Gith vs. Illithid conflict, the Corellon vs. Gruumsh vs. Lolth conflict among others. New Race options ate mentioned, which I’m sure means the Gith race and various elf subraces that we’ve seen in UA. Fingers crossed that one of the conflicts covered is Eberron’s Last War, which would be an excuse to get Warforged in an official published product at least, and maybe some other Eberron races as well. I would be thrilled if Nentir Vale’s Dawn War gets a mention. That would actually be a good excuse for them to include the Shadar-Kai, since they really have little to no connection to the Corellon/Gruumsh/Lolth conflict but are closely tied to the Raven Queen, who is from that pantheon originally.




No. Just, no...again. Same problem. It's all _FAR_ to 'campaign specific'. All this would do is clutter up pages that could have been better spent helping a DM figure out his own deity/pantheon conflicts.




Aebir-Toril said:


> Cool product, my guess is that it will give us not only nice maps of planar areas as well as details and more races, it will also give us stat blocks for creatures who are planar rulers.




Semi-no here. Maps would be pointless unless done in VERY rough idea to help DM's get a grip on just what this "Planar Wheel" layout is (us 1e old timers know it almost off by heart, but I've had some new players just not 'get it'; they have maps hard-wired into their brains that if you walk far enough in one direction you will run into an ocean, other country, etc...and the planes don't work like that because they are infinite).



MechaTarrasque said:


> I could see a chapter on "cosmic conflict and your campaign world."  Something like:  1) Cosmic Conflict Largely Happened Millennia Ago (example Nethir Vale and Greek mythology), 2) Cosmic Conflict sporadically touches the mortal world (example Eberron), 3) Cosmic Conflict is ongoing (example the Blood War), 4) End Times Cosmic Conflict is Coming (example Norse mythology), and 5) Cosmic Conflict Ended Recently and World Sucks (example Dark Sun).  [There probably isn't much need for Cosmic Conflict Ended Recently and World has Never Been Better.]  There are some subtle (and not so subtle) differences in how you would play hostile outsiders based on those scenarios:  the fiend who is hiding from the Forces of [Good/Law/whatever] and only causing trouble if it can't get caught vs. the fiend who thinks its time is now and has no problem running around causing trouble.....




Ah-HA! Now this guy gets it!  If _THIS_ was how they handle the whole book...where it's not so much as "Here is X, Y and Z", and more of "You can use the alphabet, or numbers, or shapes, or colours, or whatever to craft your own"...then I'd be TOTALLY down with that! Give me the _TOOLS & MATERIALS_...don't give me a completed table. Alas, I don't suspect I'll get that if the past books are anything to go by. 

I believe my 1e Manual of the Planes is still going to be forced into service once again. Not that I'm complaining, mind you, I love my MotP! 

^_^

Paul L. Ming


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## Mad Zagyg (Feb 2, 2018)

Please, please, please don’t use another iconic Greyhawk hero, villain, or storyline to supplement the Forgotten Realms.  Let’s actually have a product that actually features something else in this supposed vast and varied multiverse.


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## Prakriti (Feb 2, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Another terrible name. It sounds more like a generic Monster Manual 2 than a book you’d look to for information on the multiverse.



I have to agree. _Mordenkainen's Guide to the Planes_ or _Multiverse_ would have been much better. And if those titles don't fit the book's content well enough, then... the book's content is a problem too.


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## pukunui (Feb 2, 2018)

I was hoping for something more alliterative.


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## lkj (Feb 2, 2018)

pukunui said:


> I was hoping for something more alliterative.




Mordenkainen's Magnificent Manual of Master Menageries.


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## lkj (Feb 2, 2018)

. . . for Modrons . . .


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## Imaro (Feb 2, 2018)

pming said:


> Hiya!
> 
> Had my coffee. I'm ready to get my Curmudgeon-Grognarditis flaring up again...
> 
> ...




The weird thing is I don't think I'd pay for something as generic as you seem to want this book to be... I mean there's plenty of this type of general info in D&D blogs, or D&D youtube videos, generic (systemless) campaign building books and so on, with the added bonus that most don't cost a dime...  I'm not sure i see what value a book that is as generic as you seem to want it to be would provide...

EDIT: Which isn't to say I wouldn't mind a chapter of generic advice and general examples on building out my own stuff but an entire book devoted to it would be a non-starter for me.


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## darjr (Feb 2, 2018)

Mordenkainens Modron recipe book!


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## Agray Day (Feb 3, 2018)

anyone recall the code word for this release and the code word for the next release?


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## OB1 (Feb 3, 2018)

Here would be my wishlist for the page count 

50 pages general planar lore and rules (2 pages each to the 16 outer, sigil, feywild, shadowfell, 4 elemental, prime material, far realm)
50 pages - in-depth look at 5-7 great conflicts in the planes
45 pages Foes - 15 in-depth looks at Tier IV cosmic forces that fuel the great conflicts at 3 pages each
100 pages - 150 minions of the foes, averaging 3/4 page each
20 pages - 5 new planar pc races


Sent from my iPhone using EN World


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## pukunui (Feb 3, 2018)

Agray Day said:


> anyone recall the code word for this release and the code word for the next release?



This is "Marathon". The next two are "Broadway" and "Catacomb".


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## Mistwell (Feb 3, 2018)

You can use this to translate the symbols.


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## hawkeyefan (Feb 3, 2018)

pming said:


> Hiya!
> 
> Had my coffee. I'm ready to get my Curmudgeon-Grognarditis flaring up again...
> 
> ...




I don’t follow your logic at all. The Blood War is a bad example when I mention it, but just fine when someone else mentions it? 

Okay.


----------



## Jester David (Feb 3, 2018)

Prakriti said:


> I have to agree. _Mordenkainen's Guide to the Planes_ or _Multiverse_ would have been much better. And if those titles don't fit the book's content well enough, then... the book's content is a problem too.




_Volo's Guide to Monsters_ was a great name that explained what the book was about: monsters and a guide to them. It set you up for the flavour and contents. The book was focused, with monstrouseas PC races. 
_Tales from the Yawning Portal_ was so-so. You can tell it was a tacked on name they came up with at the last minute. It really needed a map of the tavern and an introduction to each dungeon as told by the people of the tavern
_Xanathar's Guide to Everything_ was such a terrible name. It gave you zero idea what was in it. Player book? DM book? It really sounded more guidebook, a sequel to _Dungeonology_. 

This just continues that tradition. They're so desperate to be original and not use old names that they're doing a terrible job of naming the books. 
This sounds more like a _Monster Manual_ that _Volo's Guide to Monsters_. It doesn't imply anything but monster. 

And, really, after VGtM, _Tome of Beats_, the upcoming _Creature Codex_, _Fifth Edition Foes_, _Tome of Horrors 5e_ I don't really need a *lot* of monsters. I need more lore, expanded rules for planes, and a better presentation of that information than in 1e. Maybe some variant monster rules for planar threats.


----------



## tmanbeaubien (Feb 3, 2018)

lowkey13 said:


> Awesome! Do you know what I was just thinking to myself today?
> 
> "Self, do you know what D&D needs? MOAR ELFS! You know, for when you're hungry. Let's see ... you can barbecue elf, boil elf, broil elf, bake elf, saute elf. There's uh, elf-kabobs, elf creole, elf gumbo. Pan fried, deep fried, stir-fried. There's pineapple elf, lemon elf, coconut elf, pepper elf, elf soup, elf stew, elf salad, elf and potatoes, elf burger, elf sandwich. And then you can get them in all your varieties; I like me some Wood elf stew for those cold nights on the ethereal plane."




And don't forget - 
Spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, baked elves and spam!


----------



## Remathilis (Feb 3, 2018)

hawkeyefan said:


> I don’t follow your logic at all. The Blood War is a bad example when I mention it, but just fine when someone else mentions it?
> 
> Okay.




Don't mind him. Just another person who thinks D&D is a generic toolset devoid of any sort of story or setting identity.


----------



## Olive (Feb 3, 2018)

Obviously other people's mileage differs here but at the end of the day I don't care what it's called, or what it's cover looks like (or how many there are although I think the different covers are a nice thing for the gaming shops). What I care about is if the books are useful for me and my gaming group.

We started a new campaign last week and we've already used every non-adventure book put out for 5e - we've used spells from Xanthar's and monsters from Volo's as well as the core books. I've played or run other games that used races from Volo's and player options from Xanthar's as well. The books have been, to my mind, great. I played a lot of 3/3.5 and I bought almost every WotC book but I would be hard pressed to say what books saw regular use at the table. Bang for buck has been so much better in 5e.

I see a lot of complaints that there is too much Realms content but we play in a homebrew that is much closer in tone to Greyhawk than FR and it's never bothered me. So discussion on the Blood War (or specific planes or whatever) won't be useful to me at all but I'm sure we can figure out how to use the monsters and PC options in our games.

In short, I don't really get the idea that 'if it's not perfect, it's not useful' I'm seeing a bunch of. Perfect for you will be useless for someone else.


----------



## Olive (Feb 3, 2018)

Jester David said:


> This just continues that tradition. They're so desperate to be original and not use old names that they're doing a terrible job of naming the books.




For the rule based books I quite like the names as at the table we can refer to Volo's, Xanthar's etc. It's more useful that PHB2 and, as the design team have pointed out, far less confusing.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Feb 3, 2018)

Mad Zagyg said:


> Please, please, please don’t use another iconic Greyhawk hero, villain, or storyline to supplement the Forgotten Realms.  Let’s actually have a product that actually features something else in this supposed vast and varied multiverse.



I'm not sure how you coming to this conclusion. From the sound of things, it would appear that this book will touch very lightly, on the Forgotten Realms (though I doubt it will be ignored entirely). Frankly, I would expect more coverage on Greyhawk conflicts/foes like Iuz before we'll see much on the Realms - and I expect that planar coverage will dwarf that of any specific setting world...

Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app


----------



## Charlaquin (Feb 3, 2018)

pming said:


> No. Just, no...again. Same problem. It's all _FAR_ to 'campaign specific'. All this would do is clutter up pages that could have been better spent helping a DM figure out his own deity/pantheon conflicts.



I didn’t say it was a good idea, just that it’s what the book sounds like it’s going to be, based on the blurb and recent activity on D&D Beyond and Unearthed Arcana.


----------



## silentdante (Feb 3, 2018)

some of these comments make me wonder why they bother playing the game at all


----------



## RotGrub (Feb 3, 2018)

My only hope is that this book has a magical item like the Skull of Mondain, that when used, instantly kills all elf and dwarf subraces not found in the PHB.


----------



## darjr (Feb 3, 2018)

So some of the code names make sense after the fact, some.

Why then do you think they picked this code name?


----------



## Parmandur (Feb 3, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Another terrible name. It sounds more like a generic Monster Manual 2 than a book you’d look to for information on the multiverse.
> 
> I'm also tired of special covers. Two in a row? They have ceased to be special.



Thing is, it is basically a MM III, but with IP specific flavor. Volo's Guide 2: This Time It's Planar.


----------



## Leatherhead (Feb 3, 2018)

This alternate cover doesn't seem to fit with the others.


----------



## Parmandur (Feb 3, 2018)

Jester David said:


> _Volo's Guide to Monsters_ was a great name that explained what the book was about: monsters and a guide to them. It set you up for the flavour and contents. The book was focused, with monstrouseas PC races.
> _Tales from the Yawning Portal_ was so-so. You can tell it was a tacked on name they came up with at the last minute. It really needed a map of the tavern and an introduction to each dungeon as told by the people of the tavern
> _Xanathar's Guide to Everything_ was such a terrible name. It gave you zero idea what was in it. Player book? DM book? It really sounded more guidebook, a sequel to _Dungeonology_.
> 
> ...



Honestly, they are not great at naming: but the names have been memorable.


----------



## Quickleaf (Feb 3, 2018)

darjr said:


> So some of the code names make sense after the fact, some.
> 
> Why then do you think they picked this code name?




I postulated a couple theories back in this thread that were meant to be tongue-in-cheek, but who knows....

A marathon is 26.219 miles, which is close to the old TSR product codes for several Planescape products, such as TSR2620 Planewalker's Handbook, TSR2621 Hellbound, TSR2628 Great Modron March, TSR2629 Faction War, TSR2631 Dead Gods, etc.

The word marathon comes from the fabled run of the Greek soldier Pheidippides, a messenger from the Battle of Marathon to Athens, who reported the victory. So that could be the premise for a war-based adventure/supplement.


----------



## Quickleaf (Feb 3, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Thing is, it is basically a MM III, but with IP specific flavor. Volo's Guide 2: This Time It's Planar.






BMaC said:


> At the end of the stream Stewart said, "Not a Monster Manual 3."




Hmm...


----------



## Jester David (Feb 3, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Thing is, it is basically a MM III, but with IP specific flavor. Volo's Guide 2: This Time It's Planar.



_Maybe_
The tagline is "Discover the truth about the great conflicts of the D&D multiverse in this supplement for the world's greatest roleplaying game". Does that mean it's giving a chapter each to demons, devils, and gith? Or chapters to the conflicts, like the Blood War and Illithid hunt?
It does seem to be about "Mordenkainen's musings on the endless wars of the multiverse" (Although I doubt it will be in-character) and not the monster types. 

I'm curious how the "several varieties of elves and duergar" are meant to fit in...


Which makes me sad. As the planes are locations, not just places for monsters and conflict. This feels like doing a Forgotten Realms campaign setting and just focusing entirely on the bad guy nations and villainous factions...


----------



## Jester David (Feb 3, 2018)

darjr said:


> So some of the code names make sense after the fact, some.
> 
> Why then do you think they picked this code name?



I don't know exactly. I imagine it's has as much to do with the first syllable as the meaning. It's something recognisable that isn't going to be easily confused when discussing around the office. 



Quickleaf said:


> I postulated a couple theories back in this thread that were meant to be tongue-in-cheek, but who knows....
> 
> A marathon is 26.219 miles, which is close to the old TSR product codes for several Planescape products, such as TSR2620 Planewalker's Handbook, TSR2621 Hellbound, TSR2628 Great Modron March, TSR2629 Faction War, TSR2631 Dead Gods, etc.
> 
> The word marathon comes from the fabled run of the Greek soldier Pheidippides, a messenger from the Battle of Marathon to Athens, who reported the victory. So that could be the premise for a war-based adventure/supplement.




I've joked before that they could be pulling them from a random generator and we'd still invent a deep meaning for them.


----------



## Parmandur (Feb 3, 2018)

Quickleaf said:


> Hmm...



In the same way that VGtM wasn't a MM2 (which they insisted on), absolutely.


----------



## Parmandur (Feb 3, 2018)

Jester David said:


> _Maybe_
> The tagline is "Discover the truth about the great conflicts of the D&D multiverse in this supplement for the world's greatest roleplaying game". Does that mean it's giving a chapter each to demons, devils, and gith? Or chapters to the conflicts, like the Blood War and Illithid hunt?
> It does seem to be about "Mordenkainen's musings on the endless wars of the multiverse" (Although I doubt it will be in-character) and not the monster types.
> 
> ...



A monster book, with player options: I'd lay money on that based on the description.


----------



## guachi (Feb 3, 2018)

Pass. Like I've passed on everything after the DMG except "Monsters" and that's only because I had store credit at a store going out of business and had to buy something.


----------



## Mouseferatu (Feb 3, 2018)

Most of my campaign worlds only use bits and pieces of standard D&D lore. I already mentioned that I'm not a fan of the Blood War. I tend not to use the Great Wheel cosmology.

And for all that? I shudder at the thought of a purely generic planar book, and I am far more likely to buy this than I would be something that cuts out all the specifics.

The lore is part--and a major, important part--of D&D, like it or not. It's part of what makes the experience a shared one for the audience. More to the point, it's what makes the books interesting, and it's what makes then not just instructional, but inspirational. I have no interest in buying a textbook, and even less in reading through one. I have always maintained, and continue to do so, that a D&D book that fails to inspire stories, to give interesting examples, or to be interesting to read through, has failed just as badly as one that fails to aid in gameplay. Flavor is not secondary to crunch; you need both.

So no, no "generic advice" books, please. You can give advice just as well while framing it within the shared lore that we all know, and on which the game has been built since the beginning.


----------



## Juomari Veren (Feb 3, 2018)

Especially useful for me since my current campaign revolves around Yugoloths taking over the scraps of a planet that was devastated because it served as a battlefield in the Blood War.

I'm hoping for a few more special magic items like how they detailed the Illithid crafted weapons in Volo's.


----------



## gyor (Feb 3, 2018)

http://www.penguinrandomhouseretail.com/book/?isbn=9780786966240


----------



## gyor (Feb 3, 2018)

A better title for this book would have been Mordenkainen's Tome of the Multiverse.


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## gyor (Feb 3, 2018)

guachi said:


> Pass. Like I've passed on everything after the DMG except "Monsters" and that's only because I had store credit at a store going out of business and had to buy something.




 Basically a multiversal war version of VGTM. A Chapter on the multiverse and it's major wars,  a section of player races (with maybe some other player stuff),  and a Chapter on Monsters,  it basically is aversion of the MM with a twist. 

 This will likely be useful for summoners,  with new monsters for Conjure X,  spells,  Summon Demons, Planar Ally,  etc...

 So far Gish,  maybe Shadar Kai,  as well as Elven,  Dwarf,  and Tiefling subraces. 

 I'm really not liking races in one book and subclasses and other assorted goodies in another book mixing with the PHB +1 rule. At the very least the PHB +1 rule should exempt races like it already does for backgrounds,  Gods,  and a few other minor mostly fluff things.


----------



## Herosmith14 (Feb 3, 2018)

Leatherhead said:


> This alternate cover doesn't seem to fit with the others.




I know. The first one I actually like better than the default!


Sent from my iPhone using EN World mobile app


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## Parmandur (Feb 3, 2018)

gyor said:


> Basically a multiversal war version of VGTM. A Chapter on the multiverse and it's major wars,  a section of player races (with maybe some other player stuff),  and a Chapter on Monsters,  it basically is aversion of the MM with a twist.
> 
> This will likely be useful for summoners,  with new monsters for Conjure X,  spells,  Summon Demons, Planar Ally,  etc...
> 
> ...



I'm certain at this point that not mixing races and classes is very intentional: no need to think about "broken" race/class combos past the PHB interactions. One dimension per book: it's a strategy.


----------



## Parmandur (Feb 3, 2018)

gyor said:


> A better title for this book would have been Mordenkainen's Tome of the Multiverse.



But that wouldn't have been obvious thesaurus reference to Volo's Guide to Monsters.


----------



## darjr (Feb 3, 2018)

What? Tome of Foes is amazing.


----------



## Parmandur (Feb 3, 2018)

darjr said:


> What? Tome of Foes is amazing.



I'd have gone with Folio of Fiends, personally.


----------



## MonsterEnvy (Feb 3, 2018)

guachi said:


> Pass. Like I've passed on everything after the DMG except "Monsters" and that's only because I had store credit at a store going out of business and had to buy something.




What do you want out of curiosity.


----------



## GarrettKP (Feb 3, 2018)

darjr said:


> So some of the code names make sense after the fact, some.
> 
> Why then do you think they picked this code name?




This seems like a Marathon through the Planes.


----------



## SkidAce (Feb 3, 2018)

lkj said:


> . . . for Modrons . . .




There is an awful lot of cogs on that cover....


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Feb 3, 2018)

"Tome of Foes"...

Thinking on it, it's not "Tome of Mordenkainen's Foes", but "Tome of Foes". So perhaps it will be detailing, as implied by the conflicts mentioned in the blurb, groups that are opposed to each other, both good and evil, as long as they are in conflict. Devils and demons, celestials and fiends, mind flayers and illithids. Perhaps the elves and duergar mentioned will be there as elves vs. drow and dwarves vs duergar? 

(Although I assume that one of the "several types of elves" will be eladrin; hopefully sea elves get their due as well)...


----------



## Quickleaf (Feb 3, 2018)

Jester David said:


> _Maybe_
> The tagline is "Discover the truth about the great conflicts of the D&D multiverse in this supplement for the world's greatest roleplaying game". Does that mean it's giving a chapter each to demons, devils, and gith? Or chapters to the conflicts, like the Blood War and Illithid hunt?
> It does seem to be about "Mordenkainen's musings on the endless wars of the multiverse" (Although I doubt it will be in-character) and not the monster types.
> 
> ...




The title, despite my misgivings about it, really evokes VGtM... but maybe that's a good thing. 

This book is going to be 256 pages vs. VGtM's 224 pages, so definitely there is room for more lore.

And maybe they've chosen not to present "locations as setting book" but rather "locations as part of adventure book"? That would at least be consistent with Chris Perkins' design thinking about "going deep, rather than broad." 

I loved the old Planescape books, but one thing they were not was clear guidelines for the DM on how to _use_ the material within in an actual game. Hopefully they redress that mistake without penduluming too far in the opposite direction.

Looking forward to learning more.


----------



## MechaTarrasque (Feb 3, 2018)

I seem to recall that Mike Mearls said something about thinking about how to stat up archdevils last year.  So maybe some high-level foes will be in the book too.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Feb 3, 2018)

Minor quibble on the otherwise amazing cover art - it's slightly annoying me that the Outer Plane symbols are out of order...


----------



## superdude9900 (Feb 3, 2018)

darjr said:


> Someone needs to deceiver the runes!




They are the old symbols for the outer planes


----------



## Sorcerers Apprentice (Feb 3, 2018)

The title "Tome of Foes" sounds like a tribute to the two biggest 3rd party products for 5E; "_Tome_ of Beasts" and "5th Edition _Foes_"


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Feb 3, 2018)

Despite a name that does not flow at all for me, this is again the style of book I prefer. I am happy they are continuing with crunch books that are not just single subject books. SCAG, Volo's, Xanathar's, and now Mordenkainen's. And considering what my budget allows me to buy, not even having spare cash to buy any of the adventures yet, they give me a good range of info for my money.


----------



## Li Shenron (Feb 3, 2018)

Nice book... I am still waiting for errata reprints before buying Xanathar’s and recently I've been thinking of buying Volo's too, and now this one also. I am not in a rush tho 

What I hope is there:

- higher CR monsters (5+)
- huge villains like archdevils and demon princes. If we have those already in adventure books, I don't mind reprints
- fantastic planar locations
- special magic items 

What I hope is not there, or at least only in minimal amount:

- planar races: giths are ok, maybe a couple more, but I already feel we're quite bloated
- low CR monsters, particularly because they normally have no interesting features 
- generic NPCs, if they feature NPCs they better be at least strongly themed to specific planes or factions
- subclasses: they did great in Xanathar but the latest UA shows they're out of inspiration now, plus they are the kind of thing that really needs public scrutiny before published (which is obviously too late for May), in addition a planar book carries a huge risk of just delivering a planar fighter, planar wizard, planar rogue...


----------



## Aldarc (Feb 3, 2018)

Maybe the final publication will prove me wrong, but this book does not feel like it has any real focus, but, instead, it comes across as trying to do too much. I will second the sentiment that the title of the book is pretty terrible.


----------



## generic (Feb 3, 2018)

pming said:


> Hiya!
> 
> Had my coffee. I'm ready to get my Curmudgeon-Grognarditis flaring up again...
> 
> ...




I should have been more clear, I was definitely thinking more about extremely generic planar maps.  on the other hand, I don't really follow your design logic, all respect.


----------



## generic (Feb 3, 2018)

Hmm, as others have said, "Tome of Foes just doesn't work for me."


----------



## Zardnaar (Feb 3, 2018)

Vexorg said:


> So WotC feels comfortable releasing two rules expansions a year now? Interesting.
> 
> Also, this sounds like a DM-only monster manual expansion, rather than a setting book or player-usable book like Volo's.




Sort of MM type books do not tend to bloat the game as such. And there is a shortage of higher CR foes so yeah the game can handle it fine IMHO.


----------



## Haffrung (Feb 3, 2018)

This is one of the releases that makes me realize how far outside the norm I am when it comes to this game. Another MM? I've been playing 5E since the first Next playtests, and only got around to buying Volo's Guide a week ago. And that was mainly for the in-depth looks at beholders, gnolls, mind flayers, etc. I've been playing D&D for 38 years and still haven't used many of the monsters in the original AD&D Monster Manual.  

I guess I just don't get the insatiable appetite for more monsters. Why are new monsters so appealing when you have hundreds already? And why does there seem to be no demand for a book of NPCs to make my job easier?

Personally, I have no trouble coming up with a new monster if I need one. _Bile Trolls. As per Trolls, except 3/day can spew acid in a 10 by 5 cone. 2d6 damage._ Done. Whereas writing up a 7th level sorcerer or 9th level priest of Tharizdun, creating a caravan, or the members of a thieves guild or mercenary band, that's hard work. Hard enough that I'd love a book of NPCs - a modern-day Rogue's Gallery. But evidently I'm far outside the norm in what I'd like WotC to publish to support my DMing.


----------



## Imaro (Feb 3, 2018)

Haffrung said:


> This is one of the releases that makes me realize how far outside the norm I am when it comes to this game. Another MM? I've been playing 5E since the first Next playtests, and only got around to buying Volo's Guide a week ago. And that was mainly for the in-depth looks at beholders, gnolls, mind flayers, etc. I've been playing D&D for 38 years and still haven't used many of the monsters in the original AD&D Monster Manual.
> 
> I guess I just don't get the insatiable appetite for more monsters. Why are new monsters so appealing when you have hundreds already? And why does there seem to be no demand for a book of NPCs to make my job easier?
> 
> Personally, I have no trouble coming up with a new monster if I need one. _Bile Trolls. As per Trolls, except 3/day can spew acid in a 10 by 5 cone. 2d6 damage._ Done. Whereas writing up a 7th level sorcerer or 9th level priest of Tharizdun, creating a caravan, or the members of a thieves guild or mercenary band, that's hard work. Hard enough that I'd love a book of NPCs - a modern-day Rogue's Gallery. But evidently I'm far outside the norm in what I'd like WotC to publish to support my DMing.




Aren't there NPC's in the Monster Manuals?


----------



## EthanSental (Feb 3, 2018)

I'd be in the same group as haffrung in that I'd purchase a book of stated npcs with short backstory/motivation as a time saver.  I've already bought the nord games 5e npc book and joined the Kickstarter for the new one.  

I guess im partial to the old 2e heroes and villains lorebooks as after reading them in the supplement, I'd look for novels that might have them in book. 

Not a huge monster book guy cause after the 3rd one for any system, your getting more fringe or limited use monsters that weren't popular enough for the first 3 monster type manuals.  With that said, I'll be picking this up since the monster related entries are mixed with other cool things I might be able to use as well as a DM.


----------



## gyor (Feb 3, 2018)

Imaro said:


> Aren't there NPC's in the Monster Manuals?




 NPC templates I think, but not actual NPCs.


----------



## AriochQ (Feb 3, 2018)

Haffrung said:


> This is one of the releases that makes me realize how far outside the norm I am when it comes to this game. Another MM? I've been playing 5E since the first Next playtests, and only got around to buying Volo's Guide a week ago. And that was mainly for the in-depth looks at beholders, gnolls, mind flayers, etc. I've been playing D&D for 38 years and still haven't used many of the monsters in the original AD&D Monster Manual.
> 
> I guess I just don't get the insatiable appetite for more monsters. Why are new monsters so appealing when you have hundreds already? And why does there seem to be no demand for a book of NPCs to make my job easier?
> 
> Personally, I have no trouble coming up with a new monster if I need one. _Bile Trolls. As per Trolls, except 3/day can spew acid in a 10 by 5 cone. 2d6 damage._ Done. Whereas writing up a 7th level sorcerer or 9th level priest of Tharizdun, creating a caravan, or the members of a thieves guild or mercenary band, that's hard work. Hard enough that I'd love a book of NPCs - a modern-day Rogue's Gallery. But evidently I'm far outside the norm in what I'd like WotC to publish to support my DMing.




I use a lot of NPC's as foes in my campaign and have put some stuff on DM's Guild.  The most useful is a book of wizards levels 1-19 (every odd level) broken down by school.  I also have one for rogues.

http://www.dmsguild.com/product/185865/Big-Book-of-Wizards
http://www.dmsguild.com/product/183981/Big-Book-of-Rogues


----------



## gyor (Feb 3, 2018)

EthanSental said:


> I'd be in the same group as haffrung in that I'd purchase a book of stated npcs with short backstory/motivation as a time saver.  I've already bought the nord games 5e npc book and joined the Kickstarter for the new one.
> 
> I guess im partial to the old 2e heroes and villains lorebooks as after reading them in the supplement, I'd look for novels that might have them in book.
> 
> Not a huge monster book guy cause after the 3rd one for any system, your getting more fringe or limited use monsters that weren't popular enough for the first 3 monster type manuals.  With that said, I'll be picking this up since the monster related entries are mixed with other cool things I might be able to use as well as a DM.




 If you add VGTM and MGTF monsters together you MIGHT get two thirds of an MM2. This is assuming MGTF's monster stat section is equal to VGTM section.

 So I think we are a whole MM and a third of an MM away from having the eqivialiant to MM1, MM2, and MM3.


----------



## Jacob Lewis (Feb 3, 2018)

Oh, good. Only four more months of forum posts speculating and griping about page counts, missing content, future products, incompetent game designers, past products, misplaced iconic personalities, potential game-breaking rules, neglected campaigns, nostalgic regurgitation, rules bloat, another revised ranger, snail-pace release schedule, market saturation, grognard angst, mishandled public relations, edition doom-sayers, and modrons. When's the next announcement already?


----------



## plisnithus8 (Feb 3, 2018)

Haffrung said:


> Personally, I have no trouble coming up with a new monster if I need one. _Bile Trolls. As per Trolls, except 3/day can spew acid in a 10 by 5 cone. 2d6 damage._ Done.




Could it be that you have no trouble coming up with new monsters because the design doesn’t really work?
A troll has a (regeneration) weakness to acid so spewing acid seems to be counterintuitive.


----------



## TerraDave (Feb 3, 2018)

darjr said:


> What? Tome of Foes is amazing.




Agree.

Keeping in mind, we really don't know what's going to be in the book yet. I mean, a bunch of people here claim to know, in some surprising detail. But we don't really know.


----------



## GarrettKP (Feb 3, 2018)

So I am expecting this to be a Planar Volo's Guide to Monsters book. 

Chapter 1: details on the Planes of existences and the threats you find there.

Chapter 2: details on Planar PC Races (Gith, Eladrin, Elf Variants, Tiefling Variants, MAYBE Shifters and Warforged?)

Chapter 3: details on a large planar bestiary. Including HIGH LEVEL threats (Archdevils, Archfey, Demon Lords, Dread Lords of the Shadowfell, etc.)

An Appendix of Planar NPC templates (like Volo's but Planar).

An Appendix assigning which monsters go to which Plane (like the Monsters By Environments charts in the MM and VGtM).


----------



## BMaC (Feb 3, 2018)

Jacob Lewis said:


> * nostalgic regurgitation,*




I'd love a nostalgic regurgitation sub-forum.


----------



## Parmandur (Feb 3, 2018)

Sorcerers Apprentice said:


> The title "Tome of Foes" sounds like a tribute to the two biggest 3rd party products for 5E; "_Tome_ of Beasts" and "5th Edition _Foes_"



Seems likely, in addition to the obvious Volo's connection.


----------



## Jester David (Feb 3, 2018)

Li Shenron said:


> Nice book... I am still waiting for errata reprints before buying Xanathar’s and recently I've been thinking of buying Volo's too, and now this one also. I am not in a rush tho
> 
> What I hope is there:
> 
> ...




Good ideas.

I agree that this might be a nice place to discreetly place some higher CR foes and more legendary creatures. 
A few more demons and devils might be okay, but I'd really like more lore and variant powers than a dozen new demons and devils that weren't interesting enough to make the cut into either the _Monster Manual_ or _Volo's Guide to Monsters_. 
More Yugoloths would be nice though. 

And since an archdevil adventure might not be in the works (not having a classic to riff off of) including them might be nice. Plus the oinoloth. 
I feel inherently wary of reprinting the demon lords when that might be a big selling feature of _Out of the Abyss_. But they could do a couple key ones (Orcus and Demogorgon) and then include a bunch of new ones.  

I do want a few planar races included. Eladrin, shadar-kai, and the gith are good choices. Bladelings might be nice. I can imagine some aasimar and tiefling variants as well. 

I'm really not sure what to expect with the rest. I'd love more details on the planes to actually make them easier to use, more descriptions and details, with a few locations. But that doesn't mesh with the book's hook of focusing on the "conflicts" of the multiverse. But, then again, there wasn't a lot of Xanathar guiding in _Xanathar's Guide_ so it's hard to tell if this will serve as a 5e _Manual of the Planes_ or a 5e version of the Third Edition _Fiend Folio_...


----------



## DeanP (Feb 3, 2018)

I love monster books! Always fun to delve into a new monster book and spring something new on the players.


----------



## Parmandur (Feb 3, 2018)

GarrettKP said:


> So I am expecting this to be a Planar Volo's Guide to Monsters book.
> 
> Chapter 1: details on the Planes of existences and the threats you find there.
> 
> ...



Good thoughts, though I think the first chapter will be less location based and more like Volo's.


----------



## Parmandur (Feb 3, 2018)

TerraDave said:


> Agree.
> 
> Keeping in mind, we really don't know what's going to be in the book yet. I mean, a bunch of people here claim to know, in some surprising detail. But we don't really know.



WotC has been ham-fistedly previewing the book for a couple months, in Beyond videos and Lore You Should Know. Planar Volo's Guide was an easy call.


----------



## bedir than (Feb 3, 2018)

Haffrung said:


> Whereas writing up a 7th level sorcerer or 9th level priest of Tharizdun, creating a caravan, or the members of a thieves guild or mercenary band, that's hard work. Hard enough that I'd love a book of NPCs - a modern-day Rogue's Gallery. But evidently I'm far outside the norm in what I'd like WotC to publish to support my DMing.




Currently the NPCs that are WotC created are great for combat encounters, but poor for social and exploration interactions. At some point I would like something, maybe even a book, that focuses more on those two pillars of the game.


----------



## Quickleaf (Feb 3, 2018)

Morrus said:


> The next book (both covers - standard and special edition - shown below) is a monster book/multiverse guide called _Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes_. On Monday the official press release will be coming with more information. Amusingly, the books that Mike Mearls and Nathan Stewart held up in today's "Fireside Chat" said "Tomb of Foes"; fortunately these are just mockups and the book is still being worked on for a May release. More info on Monday!
> 
> View attachment 93653​
> *
> ...





Hmm, something weird is happening with the sequence of those planar symbols. From the leftmost one on the cover they appear in this order: Mount Celestia, Elysium, Beastlands, Arborea, ?, Baator, Acheron, Bytopia, Carceri, Pandemonium, Gehenna, Gray Waste, Mechanus, Arcadia...

This order is radically different from what’s presented in the DMG and other instances of the Great Wheel in older D&D books. 

Do you think it’s deliberate or just another mock-up cover error?


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Feb 3, 2018)

Quickleaf said:


> Hmm, something weird is happening with the sequence of those planar symbols. From the leftmost one on the cover they appear in this order: Mount Celestia, Elysium, Beastlands, Arborea, ?, Baator, Acheron, Bytopia, Carceri, Pandemonium, Gehenna, Gray Waste, Mechanus, Arcadia...
> 
> This order is radically different from what’s presented in the DMG and other instances of the Great Wheel in older D&D books.
> 
> Do you think it’s deliberate or just another mock-up cover error?




I mentioned that earlier. I doubt they are going to change the order of the planes (as it would contradict what is in the 5e DMG), so it's just an artist playing around with the symbol order without knowing what they meant (more likely), or they were purposely implying that the creator of planar compass depicted didn't know the "correct" order and messed things up in a typical Clueless way (less likely).


----------



## TwoSix (Feb 3, 2018)

Quickleaf said:


> Hmm, something weird is happening with the sequence of those planar symbols. From the leftmost one on the cover they appear in this order: Mount Celestia, Elysium, Beastlands, Arborea, ?, Baator, Acheron, Bytopia, Carceri, Pandemonium, Gehenna, Gray Waste, Mechanus, Arcadia...
> 
> This order is radically different from what’s presented in the DMG and other instances of the Great Wheel in older D&D books.
> 
> Do you think it’s deliberate or just another mock-up cover error?



If we're choosing between 
a) secret coded message that the nature of the multiverse has changed, or
b) author misinterpretation of some picayune details

I'm probably going with choice b.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Feb 3, 2018)

By the way, the artist on Reddit who gave out some minor hints a few weeks ago says (without going into any detail) that the illustrations he or she created for this book were basically a lot of planar monsters.

Also, if this does portend that the September release is a planar adventure, can I request that the dice set being released with it be Acheron-based? Come on, creators of D&D, you have an entire layer of a plane that is literally made up of polyhedral dice, and you haven't licensed a dice set based on it yet?


----------



## Jacob Lewis (Feb 3, 2018)

BMaC said:


> I'd love a nostalgic regurgitation sub-forum.



Didn't we used to have one? I thought we had one. I think it's now "5th Edition" and "Everything That Is Not 5th Edition".

The irony, of course, is that most of the discussions in the 5e forums are comparisons between 5th Edition and previous editions, including previously released 5th Edition stuff.


----------



## Ath-kethin (Feb 3, 2018)

Color me dour, but I mostly wonder how much of it will be reprints.


----------



## pixellance1 (Feb 3, 2018)

According to the Cover I see at least Athas with its two moons (center right) and Krynn with its three moons (center down)...


----------



## GarrettKP (Feb 3, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Good thoughts, though I think the first chapter will be less location based and more like Volo's.




I think it will be more in the middle, which is why I said both Locations AND threats there. 

I don't think we will get descriptions on 6 different Planar creatures in depth like Volo's did for base foes, but I do think we will basically get detailed descriptions on things like The Blood Wars, The Modron March, The Gith and Illithid conflict, so on and so forth. And in these sections they will not only detail the participants (Devils and Demons, Modrons, Gith and Illithid) but also the locations where the conflicts take place (Avernus and the Abyss, Mechanus, The Astral Plane, etc). So a mix of both lore on the creatures involved as well as the places the conflicts take place. 

But either way I think the main focus on all of this will be the conflicts first and foremost. Why do Gith and Illithid fight constantly? Why do Demons continuously flood the first level of the Nine Hells? How do the rest of the Planes deal with the Modron March? Hell, maybe a look at why Dragons don't rule and how Tiamat and Bahamut war against each other since Beyond just did that video on Tiamat? 

If I had to guess 6 planar conflicts to be detailed (to match the detailed breakdowns of monsters Volo did) I would think these make it in:

The Blood Wars 
The Gith hunt of Illithid
The Modron March (less a War and more how conflicts may come from the event)
Corellon vs Gruumsh
Tiamat vs Bahamut 
Vaati vs Miska the Wolf Spider/The Queen of Chaos

But there are so many more we could get into that keeping it to 6 seems unlikely (the book has a bigger page count than Volo's after all). Elemental conflicts, Shadowfell stuff, Angels vs Devils. So many conflicts to detail.


----------



## gweinel (Feb 3, 2018)

pixellance1 said:


> According to the Cover I see at least Athas with its two moons (center right) and Krynn with its three moons (center down)...




If it is true, what are the left-center, left-up and right-up?


----------



## Elderbrain (Feb 3, 2018)

Re: The title, "Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes", remember that Mordy is True Neutral and defends what he sees as the Balance; Good, Evil, Law and Chaos must be kept in equilibrium. In the past, Mordy has fought for both Good (when it was in danger) and Evil (likewise), so there's no reason he couldn't view a Celestial and the like as "Foes"... Mordenkainen has aided Evil to prevent the return of the imprisoned god Tharizdun, who wants to end all reality, judging that the ends justify the means.


----------



## Parmandur (Feb 3, 2018)

GarrettKP said:


> I think it will be more in the middle, which is why I said both Locations AND threats there.
> 
> I don't think we will get descriptions on 6 different Planar creatures in depth like Volo's did for base foes, but I do think we will basically get detailed descriptions on things like The Blood Wars, The Modron March, The Gith and Illithid conflict, so on and so forth. And in these sections they will not only detail the participants (Devils and Demons, Modrons, Gith and Illithid) but also the locations where the conflicts take place (Avernus and the Abyss, Mechanus, The Astral Plane, etc). So a mix of both lore on the creatures involved as well as the places the conflicts take place.
> 
> ...



Well, now that we know that you were right about the subrace UAs being aimed at this book, that means we know another piece if content that they playtested: Demon and Devil cults.


----------



## gyor (Feb 3, 2018)

I see the first chapter broken down by planes, Outer Planes (Lower Planes, Upper Planes, Mechanis, Limbo, the Outlands, Sigil, maybe touching on the alien planes beyond like Positive/Negative Energy Planes and the Far Realms, Inner Planes (Earth, Fire, Water, Air, Elemental Chaos, etc...), Material Plane (Kyrnn, Athas, Toril, Greyhawk, ect...), Transitive Planes (Astral), Echo Planes (Shadowfell and Feywild), focusing on the inhabitants and their wars, while making the occasional note of interesting locations and factiods. Also likely some comment on variant ways of organizing the planes. Might also have spells/feats/subclasses/Fighting Styles.

 Then races (and anything else player related) section with at least Gith, Planetouched (likely including subraces), Elven Subraces, Duegar, Shadar Kai could be a subrace of Elves or Planetouched if its in, or its own race. Maybe Rogue Modrons, Dragonlance Minotaurs, Kender, Muls, Shifters, etc...

 Then the Monster section, Demons, Devils, Celestials, Elementals, Fey, Modrons, Slaadi, some weirder stuff and setting important Monsters.


----------



## gyor (Feb 3, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Well, now that we know that you were right about the subrace UAs being aimed at this book, that means we know another piece if content that they playtested: Demon and Devil cults.




 Demon and Devil cults fighting each other were mentioned during the Blood War Lore You Should Know Segment.


----------



## agrayday (Feb 3, 2018)

*and M....*



pukunui said:


> This is "Marathon". The next two are "Broadway" and "Catacomb".





"Marathon" as in its a long way to the planes...... or..... it just happens to being with "M". 

Trying to relate Marathon with this release. Yes i saw the post about TSR adventure numbers which actually comes pretty dang close i would think....


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Feb 3, 2018)

agrayday said:


> "Marathon" as in its a long way to the planes...... or..... it just happens to being with "M".
> 
> Trying to relate Marathon with this release. Yes i saw the post about TSR adventure numbers which actually comes pretty dang close i would think....



Until we see more about the book, the only connections I can come up with for "Marathon" would be (1) it focuses on the Great Modron March over other conflicts, or (2) the original Battle of Marathon between the Greeks and Persians standing as a metaphor for conflicts between opposing groups...

Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app


----------



## GarrettKP (Feb 3, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Well, now that we know that you were right about the subrace UAs being aimed at this book, that means we know another piece if content that they playtested: Demon and Devil cults.




Ya for sure. I expect we get a big section on the Blood Wars and how that bleeds into the material plane, where they detail the cults for us. I also expect both ArchDevils and Demon Lords to get stat blocks (for the Demon Lords it will be mostly reprints from Out of the Abyss).


----------



## gyor (Feb 3, 2018)

GarrettKP said:


> Ya for sure. I expect we get a big section on the Blood Wars and how that bleeds into the material plane, where they detail the cults for us. I also expect both ArchDevils and Demon Lords to get stat blocks (for the Demon Lords it will be mostly reprints from Out of the Abyss).




 I kind of want Succubi Queens/Kings as well as Archdemons and Archdevils, like Malcanthet, Shae Amori, and so on.


----------



## MonsterEnvy (Feb 3, 2018)

I hope we get Lolth stats.


----------



## gyor (Feb 3, 2018)

GarrettKP said:


> Ya for sure. I expect we get a big section on the Blood Wars and how that bleeds into the material plane, where they detail the cults for us. I also expect both ArchDevils and Demon Lords to get stat blocks (for the Demon Lords it will be mostly reprints from Out of the Abyss).




 I kind of want Succubi Queens/Kings as well as Archdemons and Archdevils, like Malcanthet, Shae Amori, and so on.


----------



## TerraDave (Feb 3, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> WotC has been ham-fistedly previewing the book for a couple months




I agree with ham-fisted. Not so sure about previewing.


----------



## Morrus (Feb 3, 2018)

TerraDave said:


> I agree with ham-fisted. Not so sure about previewing.




Yeah. When even the people reporting D&D news don’t know about it...


----------



## GarrettKP (Feb 3, 2018)

Morrus said:


> Yeah. When even the people reporting D&D news don’t know about it...




Previewing is the wrong word. But they have been hinting at this type of product heavily for the past few weeks/month. Hell go look at the comments on the pending announcement thread and you can see where I and a few others correctly guessed the general theme of the book, and possibly contents (we will find out more Monday when they do the press release). 

So while they did not preview the book directly, they have covered a lot of topics in the book through Beyond video's, UA's, and Dragon Talk segments.


----------



## Morrus (Feb 3, 2018)

*Coming in May: Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes!*



GarrettKP said:


> Previewing is the wrong word. But they have been hinting at this type of product heavily for the past few weeks/month. Hell go look at the comments on the pending announcement thread and you can see where I and a few others correctly guessed the general theme of the book, and possibly contents (we will find out more Monday when they do the press release).
> 
> So while they did not preview the book directly, they have covered a lot of topics in the book through Beyond video's, UA's, and Dragon Talk segments.




They overestimate the reach of this stuff.


----------



## Parmandur (Feb 3, 2018)

TerraDave said:


> I agree with ham-fisted. Not so sure about previewing.



Well, they've been talking about the material that will be on the book, to the extent that the topic of the next book was apparent.


----------



## Parmandur (Feb 3, 2018)

Morrus said:


> They overestimate the reach of this stuff.



Do they...?


----------



## Morrus (Feb 3, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Do they...?




Do you want me to answer “yes” or “no”?


----------



## Zardnaar (Feb 3, 2018)

I think the hints are for the hardcore to have fun guessing etc.

 We will know more soon I suppose.


----------



## Morrus (Feb 3, 2018)

Zardnaar said:


> I think the hints are for the hardcore to have fun guessing etc.




Yeah, I guess I’m not hardcore any more. Somebody else should have my job!


----------



## Zardnaar (Feb 3, 2018)

Morrus said:


> Yeah, I guess I’m not hardcore any more. Somebody else should have my job!




 I don't follow half the stuff they use, I just wait until its talked about on the forums. It comes out in May, I don't really care about it that much until it is released and I do not buy everything they make.


----------



## Remathilis (Feb 3, 2018)

So I got thinking...

The book is called the Tome of FOES. Not conflicts, wars, or planes, FOES. I have a feeling we're looking at something less like MotP and more like Elder Evils; a collection of powerful, mostly planar, threats that can serve as antagonists for a variety of games. So, it might take a particular foe or faction (lets say, devils) and discuss the Lords of the Nine, Baator/Hell, cults, new devils, tiefling bloodlines, and maybe a stray feat or spell. Lather rinse repeat for a variety of classic D&D foes. 

* Vaalakith the Lich Queen and the Githyanki (with mentions to Ithilids and the GIthzerai)

* The Raven Queen and Shadar-kai

* Asmodeus and the Devils of Baator

* Torag, the King Who Crawls

* The Demon Princes (esp those not mentioned/statted in OOtA)

* Lolth and the Drow

* The Queen of Air and Darkness and the Unseelie Fey

* Tharizdun

Beyond that, there is still plenty of options: The Archomental princes, Tiamat, Iuz, Vecna, Kyuss, the list goes on and on without even really touching any specific prime world.


----------



## Parmandur (Feb 3, 2018)

Morrus said:


> Do you want me to answer “yes” or “no”?



I'm curious as to your reasoning.


----------



## Olive (Feb 3, 2018)

Remathilis said:


> So I got thinking...
> 
> The book is called the Tome of FOES. Not conflicts, wars, or planes, FOES. I have a feeling we're looking at something less like MotP and more like Elder Evils; a collection of powerful, mostly planar, threats that can serve as antagonists for a variety of games. So, it might take a particular foe or faction (lets say, devils) and discuss the Lords of the Nine, Baator/Hell, cults, new devils, tiefling bloodlines, and maybe a stray feat or spell. Lather rinse repeat for a variety of classic D&D foes.
> 
> ...




I'm sure some of those will be mentioned but I'd be astonished if the focus was CR20+ named creatures...


----------



## Parmandur (Feb 3, 2018)

Morrus said:


> Gets viewed by 500 people on Twitch. Doesn’t get posted by primary D&D news site with reach of half a million.



Well, it's posted here now, and they have a backlog of preview material out already laying down what they are thinking about. A quick search didn't show the Twitch numbers, not so sure if they make that information public: the YouTube videos have tens of thousands of hits, and those are posted later. The numbers of folks using D&D Beyond is pretty significant, is my understanding.


----------



## Olive (Feb 3, 2018)

GarrettKP said:


> So I am expecting this to be a Planar Volo's Guide to Monsters book.
> 
> Chapter 1: details on the Planes of existences and the threats you find there.
> 
> ...




I'm expecting mroe or less this except with class options and maybe feats as well. Chapter 2 will have more than just races.


----------



## Parmandur (Feb 3, 2018)

Olive said:


> I'm expecting mroe or less this except with class options and maybe feats as well. Chapter 2 will have more than just races.



Feats and class options, almost certainly not: feats haven't been approved by the player base as a whole, and XGtE already has planar class options covered. Backgrounds, I can see.


----------



## GarrettKP (Feb 3, 2018)

Olive said:


> I'm expecting mroe or less this except with class options and maybe feats as well. Chapter 2 will have more than just races.




This seems unlikely. They won't add more class options with Xanathar's having just come out. This fills a different player niche.


----------



## Parmandur (Feb 3, 2018)

GarrettKP said:


> This seems unlikely. They won't add more class options with Xanathar's having just come out. This fills a different player niche.



The large number of planar classes in XGtE was somewhat notable.


----------



## darjr (Feb 3, 2018)

It got posted to their YouTube page, and it prompted one of those viewers to post it in the 5e face book group with tens of thousands of active users. And the other d&d Facebook group also with tens of thousands of active users changed the cover page to the cover of the book beacause of the stream.

Then on reddit and the piazza and all over Twitter. This little off the cuff leak generated quite a bit of buzz.

Not to forget here on ENWorld itself.


----------



## Morrus (Feb 4, 2018)

*Coming in May: Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes!*



Parmandur said:


> Well, it's posted here now




You need to read the whole conversation. We weren’t referring to this announcement, but the nebulous hints someone said we should have been aware of.


----------



## Morrus (Feb 4, 2018)

*Coming in May: Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes!*



darjr said:


> It got posted to their YouTube page, and it prompted one of those viewers to post it in the 5e face book group with tens of thousands of active users. And the other d&d Facebook group also with tens of thousands of active users changed the cover page to the cover of the book beacause of the stream.
> 
> Then on reddit and the piazza and all over Twitter. This little off the cuff leak generated quite a bit of buzz.
> 
> Not to forget here on ENWorld itself.




Wrong subject. You read the reply but not the post it was replying to. The topic in question was the various hints apparently released over the last few weeks, not this announcement. 

Obviously, this announcement got good reach.


----------



## darjr (Feb 4, 2018)

Ah. I’m at work “unplanned” and not paying enough attention to this thread.

Just keeping an eye on performance.


----------



## Parmandur (Feb 4, 2018)

Morrus said:


> You need to read the whole conversation. We weren’t referring to this announcement, but the nebulous hints someone said we should have been aware of.



I don't know about "should" have been aware of, but easily could have been.


----------



## Ash Mantle (Feb 4, 2018)

Definitely looking forward to this supplement; 5e's supplements have generally being of excellent quality and we've been able to get a lot of use out of the content therein. 




Morrus said:


> Wrong subject. You read the reply but not the post it was replying to. The topic in question was the various hints apparently released over the last few weeks, not this announcement.
> 
> Obviously, this announcement got good reach.



Generally the hints of what the 5e team were planning on getting to next were talked about through the D&D Beyond videos, these generally get quite a fair bit of views, definitely upwards of 10k on average (depending on the videos).


----------



## Morrus (Feb 4, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> I don't know about "should" have been aware of, but easily could have been.




You easily could be aware of most any news or fact in the world. Whether it reaches you is not a measure of your diligence. What was the 6th episode of s9 of Only Fools & Horses? You *could* be aware of that.

We're discussing reach here, not research diligence. They're different things.


----------



## Morrus (Feb 4, 2018)

Amiel said:


> definitely upwards of 10k on average




Exactly.


----------



## Ash Mantle (Feb 4, 2018)

Morrus said:


> You need to read the whole conversation. We weren’t referring to this announcement, but the nebulous hints someone said we should have been aware of.




The more nebulous hints I'd wager would be the Modron March banner that Chris Perkins had as a Twitter banner (it's gone now) and his teasing of Planescape and the Mercykiller faction in his Dice, Camera, Action game.


----------



## GarrettKP (Feb 4, 2018)

Morrus said:


> You easily could be aware of most any news or fact in the world. Whether it reaches you is not a measure of your diligence. What was the 6th episode of s9 of Only Fools & Horses? You *could* be aware of that.
> 
> We're discussing reach here, not research diligence. They're different things.




The original comment that started this simply said that Wizards has been "hamfistedly previewing" the book. It said nothing about reach. WotC has in fact been leaving a trail of breadcrumbs for at least a month now, and one could argue even farther back if you look at the trends in UAs. Regardless of whether or not people paid attention, the fact is hints were left. I don't see how reach has anything to do with that. No one said they had been advertising the hints on every outlet they could, only that they were putting info out there. Whether the info reached you or not is not what was in question.


----------



## Morrus (Feb 4, 2018)

GarrettKP said:


> The original comment that started this simply said that Wizards has been "hamfistedly previewing" the book. It said nothing about reach.




Conversations evolve. I later brought up reach. 



> WotC has in fact been leaving a trail of breadcrumbs for at least a month now, and one could argue even farther back if you look at the trends in UAs. Regardless of whether or not people paid attention, the fact is hints were left. I don't see how reach has anything to do with that. No one said they had been advertising the hints on every outlet they could, only that they were putting info out there. Whether the info reached you or not is not what was in question.




I don't really know what that means. Sure, if you like. Not really what the conversation was about. It's starting to smell a bit culty in here. Do you guys want me to say "Yay! WotC's marketing strategy is the bestest of them all!"? 

If that will make you feel good, then sure, it is. The bestest. Of them all. Does that feel nice?

Jeez, dude. All I said was that that the hints didn't hit the news sites. It's not controversial.


----------



## Parmandur (Feb 4, 2018)

Morrus said:


> You easily could be aware of most any news or fact in the world. Whether it reaches you is not a measure of your diligence. What was the 6th episode of s9 of Only Fools & Horses? You *could* be aware of that.
> 
> We're discussing reach here, not research diligence. They're different things.



Nobody was putting a moral spin on it, it has nothing to do with "diligence," and the reach is to users of D&D Beyond: i.e., the player base. They gave exclusive interviews to a business partner to add value to the partners product. So what?


----------



## GarrettKP (Feb 4, 2018)

Morrus said:


> Conversations evolve. I later brought up reach.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I don’t care what you think of their marketing strategy. Someone in the comments implied that people were claiming to know what’s in the book with no information to back those claims, and someone pointed out where we are getting that information. That’s all. 

Its not about being blindly loyal to WotC. It’s about us explaining why we were able to (correctly) guess at the general topics being covered in the book before it was announced (a Planar Bestiary was a common guess). I don’t really understand why you felt the need to revert to claiming we are “culty” when all we have done is try to show that  our guesses on content have something backing them.


----------



## Parmandur (Feb 4, 2018)

Morrus said:


> Conversations evolve. I later brought up reach.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sure, the hints didn't hit the news sites: they were, however, actively discussed on forums, Reddit, and other social media. So WotC didn't get solid info on news sites until they wanted to: so what?


----------



## Morrus (Feb 4, 2018)

GarrettKP said:


> I don’t care what you think of their marketing strategy.




And I don't care what you think about what I think of their marketing strategy!

This is the best conversation ever. We should do this again sometime.


----------



## Morrus (Feb 4, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Sure, the hints didn't hit the news sites: they were, however, actively discussed on forums, Reddit, and other social media. So WotC didn't get solid info on news sites until they wanted to: so what?




Sure. So what?


----------



## Parmandur (Feb 4, 2018)

Morrus said:


> Sure. So what?



Precisely. I'm so glad we agree.


----------



## darjr (Feb 4, 2018)

Ya know the fact they were going to leak Friday was one of this bread crumbs on one of those obscure twitch broadcasts. It has lead to all of this buzz.


----------



## Morrus (Feb 4, 2018)

darjr said:


> Ya know the fact they were going to leak Friday was one of this bread crumbs on one of those obscure twitch broadcasts. It has lead to all of this buzz.




I only knew because you told me!


----------



## Parmandur (Feb 4, 2018)

darjr said:


> Ya know the fact they were going to leak Friday was one of this bread crumbs on one of those obscure twitch broadcasts. It has lead to all of this buzz.



I'm not sure how "obscure" they are, but gosh darn it, it's fun.


----------



## darjr (Feb 4, 2018)

Morrus said:


> I only knew because you told me!




Yup 

But maybe that’s the point? I must admit I’m the only one I know locally that really pays attention to them. I even subscribed Friday.

That phat loot hand out is enticing.


----------



## gyor (Feb 4, 2018)

Bringing this thread back to MGTF, I wonder if we will be getting more Gods listed for each setting? And what about Yugoloths like Charon?

 I hope it has playable Bladelings, 4e had playable Bladelings. Maybe as a subrace of Planetouched.


----------



## Parmandur (Feb 4, 2018)

gyor said:


> Bringing this thread back to MGTF, I wonder if we will be getting more Gods listed for each setting? And what about Yugoloths like Charon?
> 
> I hope it has playable Bladelings, 4e had playable Bladelings.



Anything is possible, but somehow I think not too likely: I think gods are enough for their own book!


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## gyor (Feb 4, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Anything is possible, but somehow I think not too likely: I think gods are enough for their own book!




 I'm not talking indepth, maybe just an appendix to fill in the blanks.


----------



## gyor (Feb 4, 2018)

Planetouched subrace speculation:

 Shadowfell: Shadar Kai
 Archon: Bladelings
 Far Realms: Foul Born
 Hell: Hellbred
 Mechanus:???
 Limbo:???
 Upper Planes:???
 Other Lower Planes: ???
 Inner Planes: ???
 Feywild: Feytouched.


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## dalisprime (Feb 4, 2018)

So I may have missed something since the 4th ed, but I thought Asmodeus ended the Blood War when he plunged the Abyss into the Elemental Chaos. Has it reignited in 5th ed?


----------



## gyor (Feb 4, 2018)

dalisprime said:


> So I may have missed something since the 4th ed, but I thought Asmodeus ended the Blood War when he plunged the Abyss into the Elemental Chaos. Has it reignited in 5th ed?




 In FR at least it restarted with Sundering reordering the FR cosmos. The twist is I think some of the Succubi may have rebelled against Asnodeus, so now they aren't demons or devils, ironically making them impossible to summon by Wizards or Warlocks short of a Gate Spell (which confers no control over them), now only Clerics and Divine Souls with Planar Ally can summon them, which is also true for Yugoloths, Rakashas, Night Hags, Nightmares, and Cambions.


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## 76512390ag12 (Feb 4, 2018)

darjr said:


> Morrus had a typo too!  Tomb of Foes



Probably a joke, didn't it seem funny

Sent from my SM-G901F using Tapatalk


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## 76512390ag12 (Feb 4, 2018)

Prakriti said:


> EDIT: Misread the product description. This book is 192 pages, not 292. Meh... I'll pass.



Really? 

Sent from my SM-G901F using Tapatalk


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## Remathilis (Feb 4, 2018)

Olive said:


> I'm sure some of those will be mentioned but I'd be astonished if the focus was CR20+ named creatures...




Perhaps not in the "here is their statblock" format, but as "here is a bigbad with plots and minions to drive your campaign", maybe?


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## Parmandur (Feb 4, 2018)

dalisprime said:


> So I may have missed something since the 4th ed, but I thought Asmodeus ended the Blood War when he plunged the Abyss into the Elemental Chaos. Has it reignited in 5th ed?



4E cosmology is not generally relevant in 5E.


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## Ath-kethin (Feb 4, 2018)

gyor said:


> I'm not talking indepth, maybe just an appendix to fill in the blanks.




17 pages of god names. That's actually doesn't sound too farfetched.

My expectations for this book would be higher if it weren't for Xanathar's Guide and its pages and pages of filler.


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## OB1 (Feb 4, 2018)

Remathilis said:


> So I got thinking...
> 
> The book is called the Tome of FOES. Not conflicts, wars, or planes, FOES. I have a feeling we're looking at something less like MotP and more like Elder Evils; a collection of powerful, mostly planar, threats that can serve as antagonists for a variety of games. So, it might take a particular foe or faction (lets say, devils) and discuss the Lords of the Nine, Baator/Hell, cults, new devils, tiefling bloodlines, and maybe a stray feat or spell. Lather rinse repeat for a variety of classic D&D foes.
> 
> ...




I was thinking along these lines as well.  Then you take the Foes and use them to expand on the lore of the specific planes they reside on and their lairs in those realms (which serve as sort of drop in high level dungeon adventures) along with 8-10 minions plus a material plane cult per foe.  I'd expect to see not just evil "Foes" but good aligned ones as well.


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## Jester David (Feb 4, 2018)

gyor said:


> Planetouched subrace speculation:
> 
> Shadowfell: Shadar Kai
> Archon: Bladelings
> ...



That seems like the type of grid filling design they're trying to avoid doing.



dalisprime said:


> So I may have missed something since the 4th ed, but I thought Asmodeus ended the Blood War when he plunged the Abyss into the Elemental Chaos. Has it reignited in 5th ed?



The 4e cosmology and lore changes are kinda being ignored. 

The Realms specific ones are being rolled back in-world with the Sundering story and generally justified. But for the larger stuff beyond the Realms they're just acting like the lore changes never happened. Because there were sooo many changes given no in-Universe explanation: the creation of the Shaodwfell & Feywild, where Yugoloths went, why certain demons/devils switched "sides", what happened to the individual elemental planes, etc. Even when they did explain things (Asmodeus became a god and moved the Abyss) it often created more questions (How come gods hadn't done that before? Didn't the gods living in the Abyss object? How did that stop the Blood War when Hell and the Abyss weren't physically touching anyway?)

Since 5e has reverted back to the 1e cosmology with a few 4e nods (the Elemental Chaos as the intersection of elemental planes, the Feywild & Shadowfell) the Abyss is back to being part of the Great Wheel and is no longer part of the Elemental Chaos. And things like the Blood War have reignited... if it ever really ceased. 

Because, getting rid of the Blood War was dumb. 
Okay, a lot of people don't like it. Which is fine. They don't need to use that particular story seed. It just never comes up in their game. That's cool. Which is easy because it's off in the Outer Planes. You're not making any changes, just not using something that is there. But it's still there for people who do want it, who do like it. 
But saying the Blood War is over takes it away from its fans. They have to actively change the story of the game and ignore canon.


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## gyor (Feb 4, 2018)

Jester David said:


> That seems like the type of grid filling design they're trying to avoid doing.
> 
> 
> The 4e cosmology and lore changes are kinda being ignored.
> ...




 For most settings 4e really never did happen, it only effected the Forgotten Realms, Darksun, Eberron, and the Nentir Vale Settings anf the yransitive settings of Planescape, Ravenloft, Spelljammer 4e never really did anything with Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Birthright, Known World, etc..., so for them its no change.


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## Jester David (Feb 4, 2018)

gyor said:


> For most settings 4e really never did happen, it only effected the Forgotten Realms, Darksun, Eberron, and the Nentir Vale Settings anf the yransitive settings of Planescape, Ravenloft, Spelljammer 4e never really did anything with Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Birthright, Known World, etc..., so for them its no change.



Elements like the planes were beyond the settings. Things like succubi ceasing to be demons and instead becoming devils affected things irrelevant of setting, and would have nothing to do with the Spellplague or the Sundering. 
And would have affected games set in Greyhawk and Dragonlance and homebrew campaign settings.


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## hawkeyefan (Feb 4, 2018)

Generally speaking, it’s best to throw ideas out there that people may use in their game, or to inspire them to create their own ideas. If those ideas aren’t of interest to a particular player or group, then it’s easy for them to ignore. The Blood War is a good example. The Gith-Illithid War is, as well. A DM doesn’t have to use the elements of those concepts in order to use demons and devils, or githyanki, githzerai, and mind flayers.

I think that’s the approah 5E is taking. They don’t want to detail everything. They want to offer some ideas which can be used or not by each group.


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## Prakriti (Feb 4, 2018)

satbunny said:


> Really?



No, Jeremy Crawford said it'll be 256 pages on Twitter. So the Penguin product page is wrong.


----------



## Sorcerers Apprentice (Feb 4, 2018)

Prakriti said:


> No, Jeremy Crawford said it'll be 256 pages on Twitter. So the Penguin product page is wrong.




Anyone who has been following Sage Advice knows to take anything Jeremy Crawford says on Twitter with a pinch of salt.


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## Demetrios1453 (Feb 4, 2018)

Sorcerers Apprentice said:


> Anyone who has been following Sage Advice knows to take anything Jeremy Crawford says on Twitter with a pinch of salt.




I doubt he would put out something so factual as the page count of an upcoming product (and doing so to correct the page count listed elsewhere) unless it were true; and, if not true, without a quick retraction by himself or by someone else from WotC. As it's been over 48 hours without said retraction, I'm going to have to believe the sodium chloride will be unnecessary...


----------



## The Big BZ (Feb 4, 2018)

Anybody know what time the update will happen tomorrow?


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## Parmandur (Feb 4, 2018)

The Big BZ said:


> Anybody know what time the update will happen tomorrow?



No, But I'd reckon noonish Pacific Standard, give or take a couple hours.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Feb 4, 2018)

Is there a reason that no one has yet mentioned that Drizz't is lower front and center on the special edition cover? I know he has been part of some wars and is an "icon" of the Realms, but still.


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## dalisprime (Feb 4, 2018)

gyor said:


> In FR at least it restarted with Sundering reordering the FR cosmos. The twist is I think some of the Succubi may have rebelled against Asnodeus, so now they aren't demons or devils, ironically making them impossible to summon by Wizards or Warlocks short of a Gate Spell (which confers no control over them), now only Clerics and Divine Souls with Planar Ally can summon them, which is also true for Yugoloths, Rakashas, Night Hags, Nightmares, and Cambions.




Went scouring around the DMG and the Blood War isn't even mentioned by name there in the description of the lower planes. What it does say is that now that Baator and the Abyss are accessible via the river Styx, the demonic forces can invade Avernus again, but the wording seems to indicate they haven't. Likewise the description of Avernus makes it sound like a battlefield of the past not a battlefield in an ongoing conflict. FR wiki also makes no mention of the conflict reigniting. I get that Sundering restored a lot of cosmology back to how it was, but there seem to be some remnants left behind. 

As for people mentioning why the other gods had not ended the conflict the way Asmodeus did, the answer is simple - they had no vested interest in doing so. If anything, forces of good were helping fuel the conflict to keep either of two sides from turning on them (although again I don't recall any shift in the lore indicating an attack on the upper planes following the end of the Blood War so perhaps their fears were unfounded) and there weren't any major deities in the Abyss when it was cast into Elemental Chaos - Lolth straight up took Demonweb Pits and relocated it if I recall. Unless I'm mistaken other evil deities resided in other planes.


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## GarrettKP (Feb 4, 2018)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Is there a reason that no one has yet mentioned that Drizz't is lower front and center on the special edition cover? I know he has been part of some wars and is an "icon" of the Realms, but still.




Probably because we don’t know if it’s actually Drizzt or not?


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## Demetrios1453 (Feb 4, 2018)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Is there a reason that no one has yet mentioned that Drizz't is lower front and center on the special edition cover? I know he has been part of some wars and is an "icon" of the Realms, but still.




I've seen that said elsewhere, but the two swords that they are claiming to be held by the person in the front appear to be held by two separate people (the one on the left appears to be held by the front character while the one on the right appears to be held by someone further back, at least in my squinting view of the picture). Why would be be he be in a "Tome of Foes" anyway? Have he and Mordenkainen had an encounter that I haven't heard about?


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## Demetrios1453 (Feb 4, 2018)

dalisprime said:


> Went scouring around the DMG and the Blood War isn't even mentioned by name there in the description of the lower planes. What it does say is that now that Baator and the Abyss are accessible via the river Styx, the demonic forces can invade Avernus again, but the wording seems to indicate they haven't. Likewise the description of Avernus makes it sound like a battlefield of the past not a battlefield in an ongoing conflict. FR wiki also makes no mention of the conflict reigniting. I get that Sundering restored a lot of cosmology back to how it was, but there seem to be some remnants left behind.




The Blood War is explicitly mentioned by name in the Yugoloth entry in the 5e Monster Manual, on page 312 to be exact, under the Ultraloth entry...


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Feb 5, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> I've seen that said elsewhere, but the two swords that they are claiming to be held by the person in the front appear to be held by two separate people (the one on the left appears to be held by the front character while the one on the right appears to be held by someone further back, at least in my squinting view of the picture). Why would be be he be in a "Tome of Foes" anyway? Have he and Mordenkainen had an encounter that I haven't heard about?




Yes, it is hard to see, but the two swords look identical to me, even if there is a chance they are being held by the beings behind the Drow. But what other male Drow would get front and center like that? None I know of.

Also, the book is not about Mordenkainen's foes. He is recounting several planar and multi-planar wars and conflicts. And the two, or more, sides in each conflict are Foes of each other. So I would expect that there should be monsters and major NPCs of all types and alignments in the book.


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## Parmandur (Feb 5, 2018)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Yes, it is hard to see, but the two swords look identical to me, even if there is a chance they are being held by the beings behind the Drow. But what other male Drow would get front and center like that? None I know of.
> 
> Also, the book is not about Mordenkainen's foes. He is recounting several planar and multi-planar wars and conflicts. And the two, or more, sides in each conflict are Foes of each other. So I would expect that there should be monsters and major NPCs of all types and alignments in the book.



If they are covering things Elven, which what we have seen suggests, Driz'zt as the archetypal PC Drow and near-prophet seems appropriate to come up for Drow.

I can't make out anything in the special cover, though.


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## Demetrios1453 (Feb 5, 2018)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Yes, it is hard to see, but the two swords look identical to me, even if there is a chance they are being held by the beings behind the Drow. But what other male Drow would get front and center like that? None I know of.




They aren't identical. The right one has a spike on the lower middle edge and is broader in the area before the tip, compared to the left. And looking even closer, the left sword looks like it may even be being held by the person behind the front figure, who may indeed be wielding _neither_ of the swords.

The front figure might not be a male drow, or a drow at all, although it does look like one from what we can see. It's really far too fuzzy to make any definitive conclusions though. Hopefully we'll get a closer look at it tomorrow, since the figures will help give us an idea of what will be contained in the book...


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## vpuigdoller (Feb 5, 2018)

dalisprime said:


> Went scouring around the DMG and the Blood War isn't even mentioned by name there in the description of the lower planes. What it does say is that now that Baator and the Abyss are accessible via the river Styx, the demonic forces can invade Avernus again, but the wording seems to indicate they haven't. Likewise the description of Avernus makes it sound like a battlefield of the past not a battlefield in an ongoing conflict. FR wiki also makes no mention of the conflict reigniting. I get that Sundering restored a lot of cosmology back to how it was, but there seem to be some remnants left behind.
> 
> As for people mentioning why the other gods had not ended the conflict the way Asmodeus did, the answer is simple - they had no vested interest in doing so. If anything, forces of good were helping fuel the conflict to keep either of two sides from turning on them (although again I don't recall any shift in the lore indicating an attack on the upper planes following the end of the Blood War so perhaps their fears were unfounded) and there weren't any major deities in the Abyss when it was cast into Elemental Chaos - Lolth straight up took Demonweb Pits and relocated it if I recall. Unless I'm mistaken other evil deities resided in other planes.




I can’t see the image clearly but who else is in the special edition cover? Besides Drizzt I mean.


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## Demetrios1453 (Feb 5, 2018)

Looking at even more closely when Nathan Stewart holds it (around 45:30 in the video), the right "sword" doesn't appear to even be a sword. It narrows down way too far in the mid-section, so it looks to be a staff or polearm of some sort.

There's a mind flayer in the upper right of the group, and there's a female figure with bat or dragon wings in the back center (which kinda indicates Tiamat, but again too fuzzy to be sure, it might just be a succubus-type character).

Beyond that, the figures that I can sort of make out on the left above Nathan's hand (in all their glorious fuzziness) appear to be in very much in the style of Tony Di Terlizzi's 2e Planescape work, with rounded figures and bulbous noses. Again, all this is with the caveat that it's a very fuzzy image of a mock-up cover. They do say they will show the actual cover soon, hopefully tomorrow...


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## Tiles (Feb 5, 2018)

What format is this announcement coming in tomorrow? Written? Video? Greg Tito is involved so video...?


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Feb 5, 2018)

Tiles said:


> What format is this announcement coming in tomorrow? Written? Video? Greg Tito is involved so video...?




I just rewatched the relevant part of the video and they say press release, so at least something written and posted to the WotC site. Tomorrow at 2PM Pacific is the next scheduled Dragon Talk, so maybe more will be said then too? Mearls also commented on giving more info via Twitter once the official announcement is released on Monday.

Also, for everyone else, when I watched the video I saw the closer up, but blurry, look we get of the alternate cover, and yes, the weapons to either side are definitely being held by the beings to either side of the would-be Drizz't, but it sort of looks like Drizz't still has his swords sheathed and not in his hands. So hard to see.

Also also, they said that Jeremy Crawford was still finalizing what was going in the book, so answers to questions right now could end up being wrong. The street date is May 28 or May 29, so WPN stores will get them mid-May. Isn't that cutting it a little close for the book to not be finalized already?


----------



## gyor (Feb 5, 2018)

dalisprime said:


> Went scouring around the DMG and the Blood War isn't even mentioned by name there in the description of the lower planes. What it does say is that now that Baator and the Abyss are accessible via the river Styx, the demonic forces can invade Avernus again, but the wording seems to indicate they haven't. Likewise the description of Avernus makes it sound like a battlefield of the past not a battlefield in an ongoing conflict. FR wiki also makes no mention of the conflict reigniting. I get that Sundering restored a lot of cosmology back to how it was, but there seem to be some remnants left behind.
> 
> As for people mentioning why the other gods had not ended the conflict the way Asmodeus did, the answer is simple - they had no vested interest in doing so. If anything, forces of good were helping fuel the conflict to keep either of two sides from turning on them (although again I don't recall any shift in the lore indicating an attack on the upper planes following the end of the Blood War so perhaps their fears were unfounded) and there weren't any major deities in the Abyss when it was cast into Elemental Chaos - Lolth straight up took Demonweb Pits and relocated it if I recall. Unless I'm mistaken other evil deities resided in other planes.




 A lot of Archfiends have been busy lately,  it's just a matter of time to get passed that,  and they can stir up the Blood War again.


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## Tiles (Feb 5, 2018)

This could be a nice opportunity to support high level play with epic level motivated NPC stats and legendary lairs. Minions, magic items, environments and monsters would all be welcome.


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## Olive (Feb 5, 2018)

vpuigdoller said:


> I can’t see the image clearly but who else is in the special edition cover? Besides Drizzt I mean.




PResumably Mordenkainen?


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Feb 5, 2018)

Olive said:


> PResumably Mordenkainen?




Mordenkainen is the big head in the upper middle of both book covers. The alternate cover is the one with the row of other figures on the lower half, with what really looks like Drizz't in the center and others off to his right and left.


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## GarrettKP (Feb 5, 2018)

So even D&D Beyond lists Deurgar in the Tome of Foes description. Curious. I’ve never thought of them as particularly Planar. Maybe they are going to reprint more of the Adventure Book specific monsters than we thought? I know Out of the Abyss had some Deurgar variants.


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## darjr (Feb 5, 2018)

The DNDB add shows the back cover.View attachment 93689


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## rjhodge (Feb 5, 2018)

Just in case no one has posted it. I haven't seen it yet at least. Here is the preorder link for Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/MORDENKAINENS-FOES-Accessory-Wizards-Team/dp/0786966246/


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## Hutchimus Prime (Feb 5, 2018)

Up for Pre-Order on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0786966246/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1517838942&sr=1-1&pi=CB192198896_AA75_QL70&keywords=wizards+rpg+team


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## MechaTarrasque (Feb 5, 2018)

I seem to recall the devs saying they were looking at reprinting the monster entries from the AP's in one book, and the more I think of it, the more "foes" would fit that idea.  We have had a lot of big name foes appear in AP's since 5e began.  I do think they will have a bunch of new monsters (probably some archdevils and Iuz [since he seems more Greyhawk-specific then other big bads]) and some CR 19 or less types (some of the missing devils, demons, yugoloths, demodand/gehreleths, and maybe the archons and guardinals*)

*  The demodands in particular seem good fit, since they always felt like more of a "summons went wrong" then "purposely summoned" fiend, so they aren't things most casters have heard of or dealt with.  My guess about the archons is because they renamed the elemental archons into elemental myrmidons (freeing up the name).  It seems like they are good with celestial elves filling up the eladrin role (and since the celestial elves can be eladrin subraced elves that probably fits), although I would like NPC classes for them that fit the pre-4e eladrin.  Guardinals would primarily show because they had stuff for everyone else (maybe changing the focus to be more about guarding things--adding range for "cosmic guard types" beyond the unicorn, the guardian naga, and the sphinxes.


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## dalisprime (Feb 5, 2018)

gyor said:


> A lot of Archfiends have been busy lately,  it's just a matter of time to get passed that,  and they can stir up the Blood War again.




I believe it was Demon Princes who were preoccupied lately. In other words, while The Blood War may not yet have reignited, it probably will soon.


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## kenmarable (Feb 5, 2018)

dalisprime said:


> I believe it was Demon Princes who were preoccupied lately. In other words, while The Blood War may not yet have reignited, it probably will soon.




I'm not often a fan of the "clueless primes" attitude in much of Planescape, but it does make handling these issues very easy.  Some prime sages got a nice break from the Blood War in their little corner of the multiverse, so they claimed the War was over and that the entire Abyss itself was even throw into the Inner Planes! Just goes to show why you can't trust prime sages, cutter! They can't get past how things look from where they are standing and claiming that's how it is for everyone. Even a Signer would agree that just cuz it looks that way to them right now, doesn't mean that's how it looks to the rest of us, or even to the same addle-cove berk [-]an edition[/-] a little while later!


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## GarrettKP (Feb 5, 2018)

dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop-games/rpg-products/mordenkainens-tome-foes

Product page is up.


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## MonsterEnvy (Feb 5, 2018)

A few more details on the book.

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/news/mordenkainens-tome-foes


----------



## The Big BZ (Feb 5, 2018)

Edit: never mind ninja’d twice!


----------



## hawkeyefan (Feb 5, 2018)

Here's the blurb:

One of the most powerful wizards in the Dungeons & Dragons multiverse shares some of his hard-won knowledge with fans in a new book full of lore and monsters for D&D fifth edition. Mordenkainen’s Tome of Foes is available everywhere on May 29, but you can pick up a limited alternative cover in game stores on May 18, 2018.

Mordenkainen hails from the City of Greyhawk, but over the eons he has expanded his mastery of the major conflicts in the multiverse. Similar to 2016’s Volo’s Guide to Monsters, Mordenkainen’s Tome of Foes not only contains everything you need to run challenging new monsters at the table with your friends but also provides tons of storytelling information on some of the most contentious relationships in the multiverse. You’ll learn more about the schism between drow and other elves, githyanki and githzerai, and dwarves and duergar, in addition to reading about the incessant Blood War between demons and devils.

Players will love to delve into Mordenkainen’s Tome of Foes to search for story hooks to use with their characters, as well as try out some of the player options for races like tieflings and elves, or maybe an otherworldly githyanki or githzerai. Dungeon Masters looking for inspiration and greater challenges for players who have reached higher levels of play will find much to explore in Tome of Foes.


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## Slavomir (Feb 5, 2018)

hmmm I'm disappointed with the content (at least what was announced).  expected real introduction to the Planescape .. nothing more than monsters and player hooks.


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## Parmandur (Feb 5, 2018)

hawkeyefan said:


> Here's the blurb:
> 
> One of the most powerful wizards in the Dungeons & Dragons multiverse shares some of his hard-won knowledge with fans in a new book full of lore and monsters for D&D fifth edition. Mordenkainen’s Tome of Foes is available everywhere on May 29, but you can pick up a limited alternative cover in game stores on May 18, 2018.
> 
> ...



Interesting.

They call out the similarity to Volo's Guide explicitly. Seems more creature type focused than plane specific, so likely almost identical to Volo's in format with maybe an extra focus on intense rivalries.


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## hawkeyefan (Feb 5, 2018)

We'll find out today....the Wizards site also said they'd discuss on today's Dragon Talk, which is scheduled for 2PM Pacific.


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## FitzTheRuke (Feb 5, 2018)

It's gonna be just like Volo's with some planes or planar events/histories, then some PC races (gith) and then a monsters manual. - This one mostly higher level stuff.

Sounds pretty good, but nothing to get excited about.


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## Morrus (Feb 5, 2018)

Mearls video interview added to the above post.


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## MechaTarrasque (Feb 5, 2018)

High level stuff is greatly appreciated.


----------



## TerraDave (Feb 5, 2018)

FitzTheRuke said:


> It's gonna be just like Volo's with some planes or planar events/histories, then some PC races (gith) and then a monsters manual. - This one mostly higher level stuff.
> 
> Sounds pretty good, but nothing to get excited about.




+1

I do hope for name level/unique fiends, or other unique beings.


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## MonsterEnvy (Feb 5, 2018)

According to the recent interview. Their goal was to make at least half of the monsters in the book CR 10 or higher.


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## darjr (Feb 5, 2018)

It’s 904 sales rank out of all books at Amazon now.


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## Demetrios1453 (Feb 5, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> According to the recent interview. Their goal was to make at least half of the monsters in the book CR 10 or higher.



That's great news to hear. 

And we still only have a fuzzy view of the Special Edition cover. Hopefully they give us a better view later today!

And while it doesn't look to be exclusively planar, I'm guess at least half, if not more, will be, just from the examples given on the new product page.

Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app


----------



## Slavomir (Feb 5, 2018)

FitzTheRuke said:


> It's gonna be just like Volo's with some planes or planar events/histories, then some PC races (gith) and then a monsters manual. - This one mostly higher level stuff.
> 
> Sounds pretty good, but nothing to get excited about.




Hope you right - but I cannot see any information on new playable races there. Any way will see


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## Ibrandul (Feb 5, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> And we still only have a fuzzy view of the Special Edition cover.




True, but it's now clear enough to be reasonably sure that is indeed Drizzt.


----------



## Morrus (Feb 5, 2018)

Larger special edition image added to the first post.


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## Giltonio_Santos (Feb 5, 2018)

Does anyone recognize the characters in the alternate cover? Besides Drizzt, obviously.

Edit: Is it Lady Vol just behind Drizzt? It looks a lot like the D&D Miniatures version I have.


----------



## MonsterEnvy (Feb 5, 2018)

Slavomir said:


> Hope you right - but I cannot see any information on new playable races there. Any way will see



Try looking at the article link I linked rather then the product link.


----------



## MonsterEnvy (Feb 5, 2018)

Giltonio_Santos said:


> Does anyone recognize the characters in the alternate cover? Besides Drizzt, obviously.
> 
> Edit: Is it Lady Vol just behind Drizzt? It looks a lot like the D&D Miniatures version I have.




It looks less like a Drizzt and more like just another Drow.


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## Remathilis (Feb 5, 2018)

Hmmm... Hypothesis wrong, it IS about the conflicts, not just high-level baddies and their minions.

The four called out specifically are

* The Blood War (info on demons and devils, with new high CR types and the optional tiefling bloodlines for PCs I wager)
* Elves vs.  Drow (info on elven culture, probably some high CR drow and allies, and well as the new elven subraces)
* The Gith (some info on their cultures, the astral/Limbo, high CR types, and the gith race with the yanki an zerai subraces)
* Dwarves vs. Duergar (dwarven subculture, probably some new monsters and perhaps some dwarf options. Honestly, UA spoiled the least about this one)

He also mentions how gnomes and halflings fit into the multiverse (probably there will be a chapter about those who avoid conflicts, both of these races are adept at that). I also wouldn't be surprised if  Seelie vs. Unseelie fey (with the Eladrin PC race as a PC option) don't get a mention. 

Honestly, the way Mearls talked about it in the video, its one part racial guide, one part planar guide, one part monster book, and a smattering of PC options. If its anything like Volo's, I'm sure it will be pretty useful.


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## pukunui (Feb 5, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> It looks less like a Drizzt and more like just another Drow.



The two magic scimitars say Drizzt to me.


On a different note, who wants to bet that the new duergar will just be reprints from OotA? (I wouldn't be surprised if the demon lords all get reprinted as well.)


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## MonsterEnvy (Feb 5, 2018)

pukunui said:


> The two magic scimitars say Drizzt to me.
> 
> 
> On a different note, who wants to bet that the new duergar will just be reprints from OotA?




But neither of Drizzt's scimitars are lightning based and Drow have long duel wielded scimitars.


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## pukunui (Feb 5, 2018)

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.


----------



## FitzTheRuke (Feb 5, 2018)

Slavomir said:


> Hope you right - but I cannot see any information on new playable races there. Any way will see




Here's the quote:

"Players will love to delve into Mordenkainen’s Tome of Foes to search for story hooks to use with their characters, as well as try out some of the player options for races like tieflings and elves, or maybe an otherworldly githyanki or githzerai."


----------



## Parmandur (Feb 5, 2018)

Slavomir said:


> Hope you right - but I cannot see any information on new playable races there. Any way will see



Straight up says that Tiefling subraces, Elf subraces and the Gith will get playable versions.


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## Lylandra (Feb 5, 2018)

does anyone have a transcript of the videos? Reading is far easier/quicker for the non-native crowd...

anyway, I've never been a fan of inherited (racial) feuds, majorly-evil non-planar races or the Blood War, so I'm not sure whether a majority of the book's content is something for me.


----------



## MonsterEnvy (Feb 5, 2018)

Lylandra said:


> does anyone have a transcript of the videos? Reading is far easier/quicker for the non-native crowd...
> 
> anyway, I've never been a fan of inherited (racial) feuds, majorly-evil non-planar races or the Blood War, so I'm not sure whether a majority of the book's content is something for me.



This has a transcript

https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/147-mordenkainens-tome-of-foes-interview-with-mike


----------



## Jester David (Feb 5, 2018)

Looking at the updated information, this book doesn't sound like _Volo's Guide to *Planar* Monsters_. Instead it has: 


A guide to the planes
Descriptions of planar conflicts (Blood War, Githzeri vs Githyanki)
Descriptions of surface vs Underdark conflicts (elves vs drow, dwarves vs duergar)
Descriptions of Underdark vs planar conflicts (Gith vs Mind Flayers)
Planar subraces
High level monsters
Advice on running challenging monsters

Jesus H. Tapdancing Christ on a Bicycle…. And I thought _Xanathar's Guide to Everything_ lacked a strong focus.
It's the planar book! But also it's full of dark elves and deep dwarves! And higher CR monsters!


I know they really don't want to give us books we've seen before, but this feels like a bunch of stuff that could have filled out entire books (and has done previously) all smooshed together. And, as such, is unlikely to really give topics the space they really deserve.
(Hopefully the high CR monsters will at least slant towards extraplanar beasts.)


They could have _easily_ done the aforementioned guide to planar foes, which would have worked just fine. They could have focused on the two Gith, demons, devils, yugoloths, slaadi, and modrons and easily filled out a book. Heck, angels and archons could have been added as well. 
Instead, it feels like they didn't want to repeat the formula and went with the "conflict" theme and then had to stretch and branch out into the elves and dwarves, which just feel out of place in a book otherwise about the planes. 


And then they top it off with an incredibly generic name. I imagine _Mordenkainen’s Book of Random Crap_ wouldn't get past the censors…


I can't wait until 2020, when they decide to do a book detailing the undead, in _VanRichten's Codex of Nasty People_, which naturally also includes assorted new magic items, and epic level play...


----------



## Parmandur (Feb 5, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Looking at the updated information, this book doesn't sound like _Volo's Guide to *Planar* Monsters_. Instead it has:
> 
> 
> A guide to the planes
> ...



Don't forget the Gnomes and Halflings, too, per the Mearls interview.

Basically, Volo's, but with higher CR monsters and lore info on the basic core PC races. "Focused" isn't a design goal in 5E, they want each book to have multiple angles.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Feb 5, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Looking at the updated information, this book doesn't sound like _Volo's Guide to *Planar* Monsters_. Instead it has:
> 
> 
> A guide to the planes
> ...




Better all this in one book than in the four or five we would have gotten in the glut of 3.X and 4E.


----------



## Morrus (Feb 5, 2018)

Updated the above with the wraparound cover at from artist Jason Rainville, and some close-ups.


----------



## Charlaquin (Feb 5, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Looking at the updated information, this book doesn't sound like _Volo's Guide to *Planar* Monsters_. Instead it has:
> 
> 
> A guide to the planes
> ...



I don't think it is the planar book at all. It's the racial conflicts book, which happens to include some conflicts between planar races, as well as some conflicts between material plane races.



Jester David said:


> I know they really don't want to give us books we've seen before, but this feels like a bunch of stuff that could have filled out entire books (and has done previously) all smooshed together. And, as such, is unlikely to really give topics the space they really deserve.
> (Hopefully the high CR monsters will at least slant towards extraplanar beasts.)
> 
> 
> ...



They could have done but that wouldn't have been in line with their publishing model for 5th edition. They're moving away from the "one book with everything you want to know about X" model, presumably because that involves a lot of work dedicated to X, and produces a product that no one who isn't interested in X will buy. Instead, they're trying a "One book with a little bit of X, a little bit of Y, and a little bit of Z." model, in hopes that most people who are interested in Z will buy the book, even if X and Y aren't really their thing. You want more elf subraces? How about playable Gith? Or are dwarves more your thing? Monsters for your high level campaign? Ok, wait, I got this. Lore! You're interested in lore, right? If you answered yes to any of these questions, this book has something for you!

I have mixed feelings about this approach, but like it or not it's the direction WotC is going. So if you have any expecations about a "planar book," or a "Campaign setting book," or a "complete Arcane book," or whatever, 5e releases are probably going to continue to disappoint you.



Jester David said:


> And then they top it off with an incredibly generic name. I imagine _Mordenkainen’s Book of Random Crap_ wouldn't get past the censors…
> 
> 
> I can't wait until 2020, when they decide to do a book detailing the undead, in _VanRichten's Codex of Nasty People_, which naturally also includes assorted new magic items, and epic level play...



You joke, but something like that really wouldn't surprise me.


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## timbannock (Feb 5, 2018)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Better all this in one book than in the four or five we would have gotten in the glut of 3.X and 4E.




Hear hear!

Two reasons I support this method of release:

1. DMsGuild includes about 30 bajillion older-edition books whose sole focus is elves. 90% of the mechanics is unusable, and some of that was even true when the book was released for whatever edition was out at the time.

2. I don't need a treatise on what types of buckles are used on each halfling subrace's shoes, and a separate one for each gnome subrace's hats. But as it turns out, I did need official stats for a dozen or so monsters, a bunch of playable subraces, and a really in-depth, game designer's view of combat tactics for high-level encounters.

So if the focus of a book is "Here's some cool stuff that most people will use at the table" as opposed to "here's a hyper-focused thing that 90% of people will ignore 75% of the content within," I'm down with the former.


----------



## MonsterEnvy (Feb 5, 2018)

The interview is going on about the new book on twitch. Mentioned that Eladrin and Shadar Kai are in the book.


----------



## MonsterEnvy (Feb 5, 2018)

We are getting the Archdevils here.


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## RoninLoganX (Feb 5, 2018)

FitzTheRuke said:


> Here's the quote:
> 
> "Players will love to delve into Mordenkainen’s Tome of Foes to search for story hooks to use with their characters, as well as try out some of the player options for races like tieflings and elves, or maybe an otherworldly githyanki or githzerai."




Where is this quote from?


----------



## Elderbrain (Feb 5, 2018)

Is that a Jemerilane (SIC) on the cover, the second on the left from the Drow? You know, the guys with baggy skin and big noses?


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## Jester David (Feb 5, 2018)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Better all this in one book than in the four or five we would have gotten in the glut of 3.X and 4E.



There's a middle ground where they split it into two books and give the topics room to breathe rather than just barely touching on a myriad tiny topics.


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## MonsterEnvy (Feb 5, 2018)

RoninLoganX said:


> Where is this quote from?




The Article announcing the product. I posted the link to it.


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## Jester David (Feb 5, 2018)

Listening to the Twitch stream. Sea elves are in the book. 
Abysal and infernal cultists, tied to archdevils and demon cults.
The varying backgrounds for tieflings.


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## Elderbrain (Feb 5, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> We are getting the Archdevils here.




I devoutly hope you're right; what's the basis for your claim?


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## MonsterEnvy (Feb 5, 2018)

Elderbrain said:


> I devoutly hope you're right; what's the basis for your claim?




Jeremy Crawford is spoiling like Crazy on Twitch right now.


Edit: Shemeska the Maurader too is in.


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## Demetrios1453 (Feb 5, 2018)

Hopefully we'll get a transcript of the stream, or someone will be nice enough to will post a detailed summary...

Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app


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## Morrus (Feb 5, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> The Article announcing the product. I posted the link to it.




And, indeed, even in the very article to which you're both replying!


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## MonsterEnvy (Feb 5, 2018)

Morrus said:


> And, indeed, even in the very article to which you're both replying!




Oh you can't expect us to read the op every time it is updated.


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## darjr (Feb 5, 2018)

It’s on sale in fantasy grounds https://mailchi.mp/fantasygrounds/t...ds-for-the-week-of-apr-20-486446?e=327af9df8b


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## SuperTD (Feb 5, 2018)

Jeremy Crawford just confirmed it has 130+ pages of monsters!


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## Parmandur (Feb 5, 2018)

SuperTD said:


> Jeremy Crawford just confirmed it has 130+ pages of monsters!



More than 50% of the book, nifty!

That's also ~30% more page counts for bestiary compared to Volo's Guide.


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## Parmandur (Feb 5, 2018)

darjr said:


> 100 pages of monsters



Oh, wait, which is it, 100 or 130...?


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## darjr (Feb 5, 2018)

Artist said 100 but then Jeremy said more.


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## Parmandur (Feb 5, 2018)

darjr said:


> Artist said 100 but then Jeremy said more.



It sounds like maybe they've expanded the book from an earlier page count...


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## Leatherhead (Feb 5, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> It sounds like maybe they've expanded the book from an earlier page count...




They still haven't shipped it to the printers. That happens next week.


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## Staffan (Feb 5, 2018)

I'm excited about this book. Both because of the subject matter itself (more monsters are always fun, and this seems like a nice approach) and because it breaks the previously established pattern of D&D publications. Previously we've had:

A "lesser" (not as in "worse", but as in "with less support and marketing") adventure released in spring: Princes of the Apocalypse, Curse of Strahd, Tales from the Yawning Portal.
A major adventure release in late summer, with a big marketing push and lots of material surrounding it: Tyranny of Dragons, Out of the Abyss, Storm King's Thunder, and Tomb of Annihilation.
A sourcebook in late fall: Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, Volo's Guide to Monsters, Xanathar's Guide to Everything.

Now we're getting a sourcebook in spring, which means the rest of the schedule could be shaken up as well.


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## Herosmith14 (Feb 5, 2018)

Monsters will be cool, but I'm for one hoping for a handful of races, even if I'm expecting it to be relatively small. 130 pages of monsters and all.


Sent from my iPhone using EN World


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## Spookyboots (Feb 5, 2018)

Staffan said:


> Now we're getting a sourcebook in spring, which means the rest of the schedule could be shaken up as well.




I was talking to my group about the same thing. It's exciting! I kind of hope we get another source book in Fall though. I've been fine with the player options being once a year because it doesn't make everyone want to make new characters or revamp their characters as often. That said there is so much stuff in UA that hasn't been published. Xanathar's covered a big chunk of it, but there's still a decent amount not released (I do realize some have been dropped or folded in to other options). I'd like to see something like the Sword Coast book in fall that focuses on several settings and has a few options in each chapter that covers some of the other things, like Dark Sun having the mystic class.


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## pukunui (Feb 6, 2018)

Herosmith14 said:


> Monsters will be cool, but I'm for one hoping for a handful of races, even if I'm expecting it to be relatively small.



It looks like we'll be getting the stuff they previewed in UA late last year: the githyanki and githzerai, along with the various tiefling and elf subraces.


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## Demetrios1453 (Feb 6, 2018)

SuperTD said:


> Jeremy Crawford just confirmed it has 130+ pages of monsters!



That's hugely awesome. After the original blurb said "dozens" of new monsters, I was a bit let down (granted that's not bad or anything), but 130 pages is pretty incredible really. I have my fingers crossed that the "good vs evil" in the Outer Planes will be one of the conflicts discussed and we'll get a wide selection of celestials updated. I created a list of 100 monsters I wanted to see updated to 5e when rumors of Volo's began to appear (and a substantial number of them, about 25% if I remember right, were updated in Volo's) , so hopefully this book will cross a large number of them off the list!


----------



## Quickleaf (Feb 6, 2018)

Rogue modrons as a race, please?


----------



## darjr (Feb 6, 2018)

View attachment 93785

It's at 75 on Amazon for preorder.


----------



## EthanSental (Feb 6, 2018)

darjr said:


> View attachment 93785
> 
> It's at 75 on Amazon for preorder.




I'm more amazed and impressed by the PHB being top 40.  That thing is still selling like hot cakes!!


----------



## Parmandur (Feb 6, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> That's hugely awesome. After the original blurb said "dozens" of new monsters, I was a bit let down (granted that's not bad or anything), but 130 pages is pretty incredible really. I have my fingers crossed that the "good vs evil" in the Outer Planes will be one of the conflicts discussed and we'll get a wide selection of celestials updated. I created a list of 100 monsters I wanted to see updated to 5e when rumors of Volo's began to appear (and a substantial number of them, about 25% if I remember right, were updated in Volo's) , so hopefully this book will cross a large number of them off the list!



While I would think they can fit a few Celestials in 130 pages, Mearls in the Beyond interview stated that Celestials are not getting much attention in this book.


----------



## dave2008 (Feb 6, 2018)

At least half the monsters are CR 10 or above
 

Advice on running high CR monsters

Maybe WotC has been listening to [MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] after all


----------



## TheSwartz (Feb 6, 2018)

As I explore the alternatives more, the more I get exceedingly bored with what WoTC is releasing.

I'll buy it. And read it. But I'm starting to feel like it's a waste of my time and money and starting to regret giving them the sales.


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## Demetrios1453 (Feb 6, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> While I would think they can fit a few Celestials in 130 pages, Mearls in the Beyond interview stated that Celestials are not getting much attention in this book.




I just watched it again (after watching at lunch near a busy street where I periodically might have missed something), and I didn't see him touch on celestials at all. He mentions _deities_ aren't a focus right at the very end, so the entire question of celestials is left completely in the air at this point from what I've seen so far.

But as for what we do know, 130+ pages of monsters, with over half of them being CR 10+, means that we'll likely see 50 - 60 creatures within that CR range. The Demon Lord entries from OotA clock in at about 2 pages each, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if we see them repeated here (it is a bit unfair to make a new DM have to buy OotA just for them), with maybe 1 - 3 more new ones thrown in for variety (Kostchtchie and Pazuzu are definite candidates here, in fact the bird-headed creature on the far left of the special edition might very well be Pazuzu). I imagine something similar for the Archdukes of the Hells as well, which will give us at least 10 more (as Phlegethos has co-rulers, at least as of our last update) and maybe some previous archdukes such as Geryon. With all this focus on the Blood War, I imagine we'll get most if not all of the remaining Yugoloths updated, and hopefully we'll get the General of Gehenna statted out. 

Modrons haven't been mentioned yet specifically, but this would seem to be a good place to get the Hierarchs in...

As for non-planar higher CR creatures, well, this book is just crying out for a high-level Priestess of Lolth as the ultimate drow foe. And one thing that annoyed me in Volo's is that it lacked higher CR beholder foes, so it would be nice to see an Elder Orb and/or Hive Mother here (I'm less hopeful for some sort of higher level mind flayer and yuan-ti foes, as I thought the Elder Brain and Yuan-ti Anathema were tuned a bit too low, and these have always been portrayed as the ultimate forms for each race respectively).

As for the lower-level stuff, no doubt we'll see some of the duergar varieties from OotA (and hopefully the derro as well), and likely a few more types of low-to-mid level drow. I also imagine we'll see several varieties of mid-to-high-level gith as well.  And we'll probably get some random stuff that doesn't quite fit any of these, if Volo's is anything to go on...


----------



## GarrettKP (Feb 6, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> I just watched it again (after watching at lunch near a busy street where I periodically might have missed something), and I didn't see him touch on celestials at all. He mentions _deities_ aren't a focus right at the very end, so the entire question of celestials is left completely in the air at this point from what I've seen so far.
> 
> But as for what we do know, 130+ pages of monsters, with over half of them being CR 10+, means that we'll likely see 50 - 60 creatures within that CR range. The Demon Lord entries from OotA clock in at about 2 pages each, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if we see them repeated here (it is a bit unfair to make a new DM have to buy OotA just for them), with maybe 1 - 3 more new ones thrown in for variety (Kostchtchie and Pazuzu are definite candidates here, in fact the bird-headed creature on the far left of the special edition might very well be Pazuzu). I imagine something similar for the Archdukes of the Hells as well, which will give us at least 10 more (as Phlegethos has co-rulers, at least as of our last update) and maybe some previous archdukes such as Geryon. With all this focus on the Blood War, I imagine we'll get most if not all of the remaining Yugoloths updated, and hopefully we'll get the General of Gehenna statted out.
> 
> ...




I'm also hoping for some of the Arch Fey (to go with the Elf and Eladrin stuff) and maybe some Great Old Ones or lords of the Shadowfell (Raven Queen comes to mind)? Don't forget they also mentioned "Elder Elemental Beings."


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Feb 6, 2018)

GarrettKP said:


> I'm also hoping for some of the Arch Fey (to go with the Elf and Eladrin stuff) and maybe some Great Old Ones or lords of the Shadowfell (Raven Queen comes to mind)? Don't forget they also mentioned "Elder Elemental Beings."




Hopefully the latter won't just be the four Princes of Elemental Evil; they might very well appear, but hopefully we'll get some CR 15 or so greater classic (earth, air, fire, water) elementals.

And I didn't even think about the eladrin (the 2e/3e CG group of celestial races, not the PC race which we know will be appearing), even though we were just discussing celestials. Granted, they might now have become officially fey, but I would be perfectly fine with that (pretty logical, actually) change, as long as we get to see them updated.


----------



## GarrettKP (Feb 6, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> Hopefully the latter won't just be the four Princes of Elemental Evil; they might very well appear, but hopefully we'll get some CR 15 or so greater classic (earth, air, fire, water) elementals.
> 
> And I didn't even think about the eladrin (the 2e/3e CG group of celestial races, not the PC race which we know will be appearing), even though we were just discussing celestials. Granted, they might now have become officially fey, but I would be perfectly fine with that (pretty logical, actually) change, as long as we get to see them updated.




They mentioned the Leviathan as an Elder Elemental that is Tarrasque level. Also Crawford implied That there is also an Eladrin race that were like the Elf PC race but ascended to full Fey and even into Arborea, which would fit the older Celestial version.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Feb 6, 2018)

GarrettKP said:


> They mentioned the Leviathan as an Elder Elemental that is Tarrasque level. Also Crawford implied That there is also an Eladrin race that were like the Elf PC race but ascended to full Fey and even into Arborea, which would fit the older Celestial version.




OK good, I missed that in all the info we've been getting the last few days (which is really quite refreshingly different from other announcements), so that statement seems to me we'll likely see the greater eladrin updated.


----------



## Parmandur (Feb 6, 2018)

Other tidbits from reading around about the Twitch:

Greyhawk is going to be used as the primary example for the Core race lore, and mention of Gnomish mechanical lifeforms...

Shadar-Kai are in as an Elven subrace, and many of the monsters will be Shadowfell related (Raven Queen versus ??? as one of the big narrative conflicts, maybe).

No Abyssal Tieflings, and an emphatic statement that playable Mindflayers will never, ever be a thing in D&D.

Apparently, there are a lot of random tables for both DMs and players to use.


----------



## Parmandur (Feb 6, 2018)

Quickleaf said:


> Rogue modrons as a race, please?



You know what, they spent an awfully long timem on Modron/Slaadi lore in Lore You Should Know recently, and it seemed set up as...a great conflict of the multiverse. And they spent quite a bit of that discussing Rogue Modrons and how they work: I wouldn't be the least surprised to see that.


----------



## Sword of Spirit (Feb 6, 2018)

GarrettKP said:


> They mentioned the Leviathan as an Elder Elemental that is Tarrasque level. Also Crawford implied That there is also an Eladrin race that were like the Elf PC race but ascended to full Fey and even into Arborea, which would fit the older Celestial version.




Sounds like the Elaldrin Elf subrace that has been published in a UA article.

I just hope they don't decide to totally jettison the original Celestial "angel" Eladrin. That's rage-quit level for me. They can rename them "Phlarbnoodles", but they sure as heck better not be written out (currently they've been completely ignored, but not technically stated not to be around). The LG, NG, and CG Exemplars are multiversally necessary components of the cosmology.


----------



## Irda Ranger (Feb 6, 2018)

Hmmmm. This makes me wonder if the big adventure this year will be The Great Modron March or Blood War.

But on the whole, this is the first WotC book in a while that managed to check every “Things I don’t care about much” box. The Gith/MF stuff seems semi interesting. 

Also, *not* a fan of the metaphysics that Good becomes Bad if it wins. That way lies nihilism. No thanks.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Feb 6, 2018)

Sword of Spirit said:


> Sounds like the Elaldrin Elf subrace that has been published in a UA article.
> 
> I just hope they don't decide to totally jettison the original Celestial "angel" Eladrin. That's rage-quit level for me. They can rename them "Phlarbnoodles", but they sure as heck better not be written out (currently they've been completely ignored, but not technically stated not to be around). The LG, NG, and CG Exemplars are multiversally necessary components of the cosmology.




As I stated a few posts ago, going on what [MENTION=6811472]GarrettKP[/MENTION] said, I'm guessing they will be appearing in the book, pretty much the same, but just reclassified as fey. Which, frankly, they were more than halfway towards being back in 2e and 3e. So they would remain CG Exemplars, but just not celestials...

Does anyone have Crawford's exact words that GarrettKP is alluding to?


----------



## gyor (Feb 6, 2018)

Sword of Spirit said:


> Sounds like the Elaldrin Elf subrace that has been published in a UA article.
> 
> I just hope they don't decide to totally jettison the original Celestial "angel" Eladrin. That's rage-quit level for me. They can rename them "Phlarbnoodles", but they sure as heck better not be written out (currently they've been completely ignored, but not technically stated not to be around). The LG, NG, and CG Exemplars are multiversally necessary components of the cosmology.




 I don't remember which book,  Dungeon Masters Guide or PHB,  but Elves in Arvandar the Elf after life end up as Celestials,  so yes there are Eldarin Celestials,  as well as Sea Elf Celestials,  High Elf Celestials,  Drow Celestials,  Wood Elf Celestials,  Avariel Celestials,  and the real WTF,  Shadar Kai Celestials. 

 Speaking of Shadar Kai it's confirmed they are now Elves,  WTF,  how does one explain there connection to the Netheril Empire and that there is a ritual to turn a human into a Shadar Kai? Massive recon. 

 They are even reconning Tieflings from within the edition itself,  the SCAG had rules for none Infernal Tieflings. It also noted that several of the Mulhorand Gods took the form of Tieflings (probably Set and Sebek,  and weirdly maybe Anhur who is Chaotic Good). So how does that make sense when now Tieflings are only linked to the Devils. Heck none Infernal Tieflings appear in the 5e Novels? 

 The stuff on none humanoid Eldarin sounds cool. 

 A lot of weird stuff are going to be in this book,  like the reason Elfs have so many different forms is that they used to be shapeshifters before their fall from being Fey (this is before the schism between the Drow and other Elven Races), and they will talk about the time when they were fey. 

 That Shadar Kai are now Elves means that
 A) Elven High Magic should work for them, 
 B) they are welcome on Arvandar,  even though they just fought a war and helped destroy a Elf nation called Myth Drannar. 
 C)  Many don't speak Elvish,  they speak Netherese or whatever they spoke in Nantir Vale. 
 D)  They have aquired some Elven abilities like immunity to sleep that they didn't have before. 
 E)   Shadar Kai can become Spellsingers. 
 F)   Shadar Kai can take Elven Accuracy

 I wonder if Fey'ri the demonic elves get a mention. 

 For new monsters Demons,  Devils,  Archdevils,  Levethan, Gnomes built Clockwork constructs,  variants to Cambions,  Demon and Devil Cultists,  creatures from the Shadowfell associated with Shadar Kai,  non humanoid Eldarin (fey and maybe celestial). Some new Duegar and Gith monsters. 130+ pages of Monsters is a lot. I don't know for sure,  but I'm betting the Lich Queen of the Githyanki are in. New Yugoloths are in. 

 For races and subraces it appears there are starting with Sea Elves (yeah), Eldarin (yeah), Shadar Kai (yeah,  but also WTF???), Tiefling Subraces linked to the Archdevils (except Asmodeus who is just the default Tiefling). And the Gith,  Githzerai and Githyanki subraces. 

 I really hope they have some kind of note dealing with FR and Tieflings and Shadar Kai. Sea Elves are easy as are Githzerai and Githyanki. 

 Sections include the Blood War,  Elves vs. Drow,  Dwarves vs. Duegar, Gith vs. Mindflayers, and Halflings and Gnomes chilling out in their own chapter that is free from major conflicts,  but at least Gnomes get an invention table. I wonder if Deep Gnomes and Whisper Halflings get discussed in this Chapter. 

 It seems like the Player section is going to be very small,  just one race,  with 3 subraces for Elves (Sea, Eldarin, Shadar Kai),  and 8 for Tieflings (Zariel,  Mephosilies,  Belzebub,  Feirna/Beliel,  Glaysa,  Levisitus,  Dispater, Mammon), Gith (Githyanki and Githzerai).  That's probably less space then Volo's Guide To Monsters gave to races. 

 Upcoming D&D Beyond video on Elves.

 Shadar Kai gain Trance,  Fey Ancestory,  Keen Senses,  Elvish,  (they had Darkvision already),  and a 700 year life span (or more).


----------



## mach1.9pants (Feb 6, 2018)

I'm not sure if it has already been mentioned, sorry if it has, but MToF is available on DDB with "By pre-ordering on D&D Beyond, you will receive exclusive character portrait frames, sheet backdrops, and theme colors[sic] to be used with upcoming character sheet updates."


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## vecna00 (Feb 6, 2018)

I wouldn't be surprised if we see the Phaerimm and Sharn in this book.  It would be quite nice for them to finally make their appearance!


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Feb 6, 2018)

I am glad they are going closer to the 3E version of Shadar Kai than the 4E version, though I do not remember ever running into any in my 3E years, and I avoided 4E like the Plague, so this new 5E version of them is totally cool with me since I have no baggage from earlier editions related to them.

And I wish I had been taking notes during Dragon Talk today when they were giving so many details, as I thought there was a fair bit more than what [MENTION=6670153]gyor[/MENTION] included in his post.


----------



## Sword of Spirit (Feb 6, 2018)

gyor said:


> I don't remember which book,  Dungeon Masters Guide or PHB,  but Elves in Arvandar the Elf after life end up as Celestials,  so yes there are Eldarin Celestials,  as well as Sea Elf Celestials,  High Elf Celestials,  Drow Celestials,  Wood Elf Celestials,  Avariel Celestials,  and the real WTF,  Shadar Kai Celestials.




That’s not what I mean. I don’t know what your personal edition lore background is, so you may already know this, but I’ll explain it for the benefit of those who might not.

In 2e/3e each of the nine alignments had a primary Exemplar race. I use race extremely loosely, because it was in fact a creature category with a wide variety of forms from weak to strong. Some of these will look familiar to modern players, others might not:

LG - Archons (completely different than what 4e used the name for)
NG - Guardinals
CG - Eladrin (again, completely different than the mortal race of the same name used in 4e)
LN - Modrons
N (“true” neutral) - Rilmani
CN - Slaad
LE - Devils
NE - Yugoloths
CE - Demons

Just like demons and devils come in all shapes, sizes, and power levels, so do these other creature categories. For example, Guardinals are mostly humanoid in form but have animalistic features (of various animals depending on the particular type of Guardinal). Archons range from glowing balls of light, to humanoids with swords for arms, anthropomorphic animals, and winged angel like beings with trumpets. Eladrin have a feyish theme, but are considered Celestial Exemplars like the other two good types. They range from winged pixie like creatures to things such as watery, deserty, fiery, knightly, and lordly types. (Rilmani are humanoid in shape, but appear to be made of various types off metal—not in a robotic or construct manner though.)

In general what these creatures all share is that they are formed from the souls off deceased mortals of the appropriate alignment. The good species are the counterparts of the evil species like devils and demons. Basically they occupy a similar cosmological place as angels. (They aren’t referred to by that name however.  The angels, also known as Aasimon (ever wander where the name “aasimar” as a mortal with angelic ancestry came from? Now you know.) are separate beings, who are more dedicated to the gods of good, but they also have similar types and rankings.)

I hope it is obvious why converting Eladrin exemplars into an elven subrace (even if it got a changed creature type) completely misses the boat both conceptually and mechanically.


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## vecna00 (Feb 6, 2018)

Sword of Spirit said:


> That’s not what I mean. I don’t know what your personal edition lore background is, so you may already know this, but I’ll explain it for the benefit of those who might not.
> 
> In 2e/3e each of the nine alignments had a primary Exemplar race. I use race extremely loosely, because it was in fact a creature category with a wide variety of forms from weak to strong. Some of these will look familiar to modern players, others might not:
> 
> ...




Just throwing it out there, I really miss the actual Eladrin.  Particularly, the Ghaele and Tulani!


----------



## vpuigdoller (Feb 6, 2018)

gyor said:


> I don't remember which book,  Dungeon Masters Guide or PHB,  but Elves in Arvandar the Elf after life end up as Celestials,  so yes there are Eldarin Celestials,  as well as Sea Elf Celestials,  High Elf Celestials,  Drow Celestials,  Wood Elf Celestials,  Avariel Celestials,  and the real WTF,  Shadar Kai Celestials.
> 
> Speaking of Shadar Kai it's confirmed they are now Elves,  WTF,  how does one explain there connection to the Netheril Empire and that there is a ritual to turn a human into a Shadar Kai? Massive recon.
> 
> ...




I’m not happy at all about the Shadar Kai been elfs now, it doesn’t even make sense.

Edit:  Well maybe they are trying to retcon them back to fey idk..


----------



## GarrettKP (Feb 6, 2018)

Shadar Kai were originally Fey that got corrupt by the Shadowfell. If anything making them an Elf Subrace is more in line with the Races origins than their representation in 4e.


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## Lylandra (Feb 6, 2018)

Irda Ranger said:


> Hmmmm. This makes me wonder if the big adventure this year will be The Great Modron March or Blood War.
> 
> But on the whole, this is the first WotC book in a while that managed to check every “Things I don’t care about much” box. The Gith/MF stuff seems semi interesting.
> 
> Also, *not* a fan of the metaphysics that Good becomes Bad if it wins. That way lies nihilism. No thanks.




I'm more of a fan of "the multiverse will balance itself". But maybe Mordenkainen is portrayed as the "active neutral-fanatic" that he is. Because who the heck would possibly ally with this guy if he is anything but trustworthy?


----------



## gyor (Feb 6, 2018)

GarrettKP said:


> Shadar Kai were originally Fey that got corrupt by the Shadowfell. If anything making them an Elf Subrace is more in line with the Races origins than their representation in 4e.




 They we're not a major race prior to 4e, but they exploded in importance to both FR and Nantir Vale settings.

 The mechanics still resemble 4e Shadar Kai.

 Still I get what your saying.

 I just want a side bar for FR that explains how the Shadar Kai in the setting became Elves.


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## Parmandur (Feb 6, 2018)

gyor said:


> They we're not a major race prior to 4e, but they exploded in importance to both FR and Nantir Vale settings.
> 
> The mechanics still resemble 4e Shadar Kai.
> 
> ...



Considering that the Yuan-Ti section in Volo's never mentions a bit of their FR origin, I wouldn't bet on it. 4E lore is out, retconned and ignored, and Canon in general is fuzzy.


----------



## gyor (Feb 6, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Considering that the Yuan-Ti section in Volo's never mentions a bit of their FR origin, I wouldn't bet on it. 4E lore is out, retconned and ignored, and Canon in general is fuzzy.




 Yeah I wasn't impressed by that.


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## TwoSix (Feb 6, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Considering that the Yuan-Ti section in Volo's never mentions a bit of their FR origin, I wouldn't bet on it. 4E lore is out, retconned and ignored, and Canon in general is fuzzy.



In general, expecting continuity across editions sets one up for disappointment; far better to treat each edition as a reboot.


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## Parmandur (Feb 6, 2018)

gyor said:


> Yeah I wasn't impressed by that.



Impressed or not, that's likely going to be the case again.


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## gyor (Feb 6, 2018)

TwoSix said:


> In general, expecting continuity across editions sets one up for disappointment; far better to treat each edition as a reboot.




 That doesn't work for the Forgotten Realms, which gets evolves not rebooted.


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## GarrettKP (Feb 6, 2018)

gyor said:


> That doesn't work for the Forgotten Realms, which gets evolves not rebooted.




When you "evolve" the Realms back to their 3e lore with only mentions of the 4e lore then it might as well be called a reboot.


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## gyor (Feb 6, 2018)

GarrettKP said:


> When you "evolve" the Realms back to their 3e lore with only mentions of the 4e lore then it might as well be called a reboot.




 That is an over simplification of the Sundering,  many areas did not revert to a form more similar to 3e. 

 Dambrath,  Vaasa,  Tymanther,  and others were more similar to 4e,  while Mulhorand and Unther actually are more similiar to a period prior to 1e in some ways.


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## gyor (Feb 6, 2018)

https://i.imgur.com/fhpBm7M_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

 I noticed Skulllord, Mindflayer,  what I think is an Atropal (could be wrong about that),  and what looks like some kind of Succubus on the cover.


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## Parmandur (Feb 6, 2018)

gyor said:


> That is an over simplification of the Sundering,  many areas did not revert to a form more similar to 3e.
> 
> Dambrath,  Vaasa,  Tymanther,  and others were more similar to 4e,  while Mulhorand and Unther actually are more similiar to a period prior to 1e in some ways.



Haven't heard much talk about the Sundering lately.


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## GarrettKP (Feb 6, 2018)

gyor said:


> https://i.imgur.com/fhpBm7M_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium
> 
> I noticed Skulllord, Mindflayer, what I think is an Atropal (could be wrong about that), and what looks like some kind of Succubus on the cover.




From what I can tell left to right: Hooked Horror, Imp?, Spriggin?, Gith, Drow, Succubus? (actually looks more like a Cambion), Skull Lord, Illithid, Displacer Beast. Please correct me if I am wrong on any of these.


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## MechaTarrasque (Feb 6, 2018)

Expect the hard reboot when the D&D movie comes out.  We will get the full FR experience if the reboot actually happens in the movie.


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## Irda Ranger (Feb 6, 2018)

This is why I play Forgotten Realms using Grey Box canon and ignore everything that came after. 

The joys of running homebrew and not needing to care what the Adventurer's League is up to. I can just pick an choose from the new materials to incorporate into my "canon" campaign notes.


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## gyor (Feb 6, 2018)

GarrettKP said:


> From what I can tell left to right: Hooked Horror, Imp?, Spriggin?, Gith, Drow, Succubus? (actually looks more like a Cambion), Skull Lord, Illithid, Displacer Beast. Please correct me if I am wrong on any of these.




 Your list actually makes sense,  they said that there would be Cambion variants in the book so it might be a Cambion (I'm hoping for Alu Fiend and Fey'ri Cambions).

 I don't think that is an Imp.


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## darjr (Feb 6, 2018)

I run a ton of AL and lore is not a problem. Most people have no idea and definitely don’t care as much as some here.

The YouTube vid is live.

https://youtu.be/AO0f3G4hu30


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## dave2008 (Feb 6, 2018)

TheSwartz said:


> As I explore the alternatives more, the more I get exceedingly bored with what WoTC is releasing.
> 
> I'll buy it. And read it. But I'm starting to feel like it's a waste of my time and money and starting to regret giving them the sales.




So what are you looking for?  A great thing with 5e is that you don't have rely on WotC, but personally this the most interested I have been in a WotC book since  VGtM.  I bought all of the books at first, but I didn't get Strahd, SKT or XGtE.  I had felt my interest in WotC products waning (I did buy ToA), but this one has me interested again.  I really love the format with about half the book on the lore of some creatures, settings, etc. and the other half new stat blocks.  I could buy one of these every year easy.  I much prefer this format of monster book to the typical MM or bestiary (better than teh MM or FeF or ToB in my book).


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## TwoSix (Feb 6, 2018)

gyor said:


> That doesn't work for the Forgotten Realms, which gets evolves not rebooted.



There's nothing preventing WotC from rebooting FR.  But I was talking more in a general sense about how the core concepts of D&D are put together.


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## dave2008 (Feb 6, 2018)

GarrettKP said:


> ...Succubus? (actually looks more like a Cambion), Skull Lord,....




The way it towers over the skull lord I was think an Archduchess of Hell.  Maybe Glasya or Fierna


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## Parmandur (Feb 6, 2018)

Irda Ranger said:


> This is why I play Forgotten Realms using Grey Box canon and ignore everything that came after.
> 
> The joys of running homebrew and not needing to care what the Adventurer's League is up to. I can just pick an choose from the new materials to incorporate into my "canon" campaign notes.



Notably, Perkins has pointed to the Grey Box or 3E FRCS on the DMs Guild for 5E FR. They've put a big emphasis on DM table-Canon over metaplot.


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## Parmandur (Feb 6, 2018)

darjr said:


> I run a ton of AL and lore is not a problem. Most people have no idea and definitely don’t care as much as some here.
> 
> The YouTube vid is live.
> 
> https://youtu.be/AO0f3G4hu30



I think most people take official lore as a suggestion, something to put in the toolbox. Which is what WotC is giving us these days, toolbox expansion sets.


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## gyor (Feb 6, 2018)

dave2008 said:


> The way it towers over the skull lord I was think an Archduchess of Hell.  Maybe Glasya or Fierna




 Doesn't really look like either of them. Could be a Succubus Queen like Malcanthet.

 I mean now that Succubi are nether demons,  nor devils,  and yet serve devils, demons,  rakshasa,  yugoloths, night hags, evil gods and possible more powerful forms of their own kind,  the question that the blood war chapter will hopefully answer is how do the Succubi fit into the blood war now?


----------



## dave2008 (Feb 6, 2018)

gyor said:


> Doesn't really look like either of them. Could be a Succubus Queen like Malcanthet.




That is a good choice too.  Though I didn't realize Glasya and Fierna had a canonical look.


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## gyor (Feb 6, 2018)

dave2008 said:


> That is a good choice too.  Though I didn't realize Glasya and Fierna had a canonical look.




 Fierna doesn't have wings. 

 I suppose it could be Glasya. It's hard to say.


----------



## Quickleaf (Feb 6, 2018)

GarrettKP said:


> From what I can tell left to right: Hooked Horror, Imp?, Spriggin?, Gith, Drow, Succubus? (actually looks more like a Cambion), Skull Lord, Illithid, Displacer Beast. Please correct me if I am wrong on any of these.




https://i.imgur.com/fhpBm7M_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

The 3rd from left _might_ be a Hordling...they did say there'd be lots of random tables...but otherwise sounds about right.


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## dave2008 (Feb 6, 2018)

gyor said:


> Fierna doesn't have wings.
> 
> I suppose it could be Glasya. It's hard to say.




I wondered about that after I had typed that.  I knew at least one of them did (at least in the 1e MM picture of Glasya), but I wasn't sure about both.


----------



## gyor (Feb 7, 2018)

Quickleaf said:


> https://i.imgur.com/fhpBm7M_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium
> 
> The 3rd from left _might_ be a Hordling...they did say there'd be lots of random tables...but otherwise sounds about right.




 Looking at the picture again, looking at what the bat winged woman is wearing, there is no way she is Glasya, Fierna, or Malcanthet. So a Cambion variant is most likely.

 Hordlings sound like an interesting choice, expanding the fiendish races.


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## gyor (Feb 7, 2018)

"Arborea is home to many elves and elven deities. Elve born on this plane have the celestial type and are wild at heart, ready to battle evil in a heartbeat. Otherwise, they look and behave like normal elves." From the Dungeon Masters Guide. 

 For those concerned about a lack of Celestial Eldarin, any elf born in Arborea gains the Celestial type,  so there can be Celestial Drow,  Celestial High Elves,  Celestial Wood Elves,  Celestial Wild Elves,  Celestial Shadar Kai Elves,  Celestial Sea Elves,  Celestial Eldarin (including non humanoid elves). This could lead to some truely weird Celestials. This could be fun to combine with Celestial Patron Warlock,  your Patron is just an elf born in Arborea. 

 I don't know if for this purpose Half Elves count as Elves.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Feb 7, 2018)

darjr said:


> I run a ton of AL and lore is not a problem. Most people have no idea and definitely don’t care as much as some here.
> 
> The YouTube vid is live.
> 
> https://youtu.be/AO0f3G4hu30




Thanks for that!

I just broke out in a huge grin watching that as Crawford confirmed that both PC-race Eladrin and various types of "greater" Eladrin will both be appearing, the latter presumably updating the classic eladrin types from 2e/3e days (although as fey, not celestials, which, as I stated some posts back, is hardly a huge leap). And, as said before, updated Yugoloths left out of the MM Now we only need word if the hierarch modrons will be updated and if any archons and/or guardinals will appear...


----------



## QuietBrowser (Feb 7, 2018)

Jester David said:


> The 4e cosmology and lore changes are kinda being ignored.
> 
> The Realms specific ones are being rolled back in-world with the Sundering story and generally justified. But for the larger stuff beyond the Realms they're just acting like the lore changes never happened. Because there were sooo many changes given no in-Universe explanation: the creation of the Shaodwfell & Feywild, where Yugoloths went, why certain demons/devils switched "sides", what happened to the individual elemental planes, etc. Even when they did explain things (Asmodeus became a god and moved the Abyss) it often created more questions (How come gods hadn't done that before? Didn't the gods living in the Abyss object? How did that stop the Blood War when Hell and the Abyss weren't physically touching anyway?)
> 
> ...




Okay, I know that this is really himing in far too late, but I needed to challenge this:

The Blood War as never "over" in 4th edition. It was still around. There were a grand total of four changes; three to the Blood War itself, and one to how the planar sourcebooks were written.

Firstly, the Blood War stopped being the Big Blatant Plothook - Planescape splats could hardly go a page of flavor without talking about the Blood War, whilst in 4e, planar sourcebooks actually talked about things other than the Blood War. It was still there, it just wasn't the all-devouring plotline it was in AD&D.

As for the Blood War's changes... Firstly, it had a hot & cold cycle; in the "hot" phrase, you have armies of trillions upon trillions of fiends and damned souls battling across the planes to mutual extinction, and then, in the "cold" phase, you have them retreat to lick their wounds, replenish their numbers, rebuild their fortifications and plan out for the next grand scale onslaught. Secondly, Good was no longer made to look impotent in the face of the Blood War. And finally, the Blood War's root cause changed from a clumsy Moorcockian Evil Law vs. Evil Chaos affair to a more readily understandable battle over the Heart of the Abyss and the potential to claim the entire multiverse and reshape it to their desired form.


----------



## Parmandur (Feb 7, 2018)

QuietBrowser said:


> Okay, I know that this is really himing in far too late, but I needed to challenge this:
> 
> The Blood War as never "over" in 4th edition. It was still around. There were a grand total of four changes; three to the Blood War itself, and one to how the planar sourcebooks were written.
> 
> ...



But without clumsy Moorcockian kludge's, is it even D&D...?


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## QuietBrowser (Feb 7, 2018)

Those of you have seen my comparisons of the World Axis to the Great Wheel are probably assuming that I just hate Planescape. In truth, my relationship with it is more complicated than that... if I had to sum up my feelings in a few short words, it'd be "great idea: lackluster execution".

See, I really like the _concept_ of planar fantasy. The idea of traveling between magical realms out of the melting pot of the multiverse is just inherently awesome, and really sparks the side of me that like truly gonzo fantasy. Where else can a character concept like "vengeful dragon-hunting kobold who eats her draconic foes" feel perfectly reasonable? Where else is it perfectly normal to have a hexslinging cowboy, a cyborg samurai, a pyromantic pirate and an undead ninja all hanging out in the same bar? Exploring the realms of fiends, angels and faeries, traveling to worlds unseen, battling opponents who can shake the very order of creation itself - this is a concept that just sparks my imagination!

And then I actually got to look at real Planescape material... I think the best simile I can come up with for my presumably mostly-American audience is this: imagine you order a buffet at your favorite local style BBQ joint. Then imagine that, after you've paid, you sit down to your meal, and find that 90% of what you've been given is spam, tofu, and soy-products.

I went in expecting epic adventuring across a fantasy multiverse. What I got was a baroque and clunky backdrop that reeked of grid-filling and similar try-hard "edge-punk!" to the Old World of Darkness, and where most of your "adventuring" amounted to being pawns, puppets and dogsbodies of "Iconics" whom you were told you would never, ever, ever be a threat to, so don't even try. Planescape was in no way exempt from the "Status Quo is Sarosanct!" approach of TSR and early WotC era D&D, and it really did not do the setting any favors.

In the end... what I want out of a planar setting is far closer to Planescape: Torment - the game where you midwife a pregnant street, traverse the subterranean streets of a necropolis full of civilized undead, interact with the prostitutes at an intellectualistic brothel, and explore a fortress built from crystalized regret, all with the aid of a wisecracking skull, a fiend-blooded street urchin, an alien warrior-wizard with a deep secular religion, a chaste succubus, and Nordom. I want the kind of setting where I can truly embrace the wonders and weirdness of the multiverse. The kind of setting where a party comprised of a prime-worlder androgynous black mage trying to reshape his destiny, a half-marilith gnoll who is one of Yeenoghu's abandoned daughters, a duthka'gith out to free her people from Vlaakith CLVII's slavery, a tanuki ninja and the faerie dragon equivalent of a kobold would not attract more than a few stares.

And not, say, the kind of setting where I faff about as a lowly errand-boy in a party of "the generic races but from fancier lands!", running around a smokier, edgier Waterdeep full of jaded, stuck-up cynics and avoiding run-ins with lunatics from a bunch of philosphical gangs were many of their ideologies don't even make sense if you spend a few minutes thinking about them. Which, sadly, is generally how Planescape came off to me in execution.

That said, disappointing as I found Planescape in general to be, that doesn't mean I can't recognize and respect its hidden gems. I just think the World Axis cosmology and 4e's mentality presented a far better outline for Planescape that would let me play it and run it the way *I* want.


----------



## gyor (Feb 7, 2018)

QuietBrowser said:


> Those of you have seen my comparisons of the World Axis to the Great Wheel are probably assuming that I just hate Planescape. In truth, my relationship with it is more complicated than that... if I had to sum up my feelings in a few short words, it'd be "great idea: lackluster execution".
> 
> See, I really like the _concept_ of planar fantasy. The idea of traveling between magical realms out of the melting pot of the multiverse is just inherently awesome, and really sparks the side of me that like truly gonzo fantasy. Where else can a character concept like "vengeful dragon-hunting kobold who eats her draconic foes" feel perfectly reasonable? Where else is it perfectly normal to have a hexslinging cowboy, a cyborg samurai, a pyromantic pirate and an undead ninja all hanging out in the same bar? Exploring the realms of fiends, angels and faeries, traveling to worlds unseen, battling opponents who can shake the very order of creation itself - this is a concept that just sparks my imagination!
> 
> ...




 Interesting perpective. How do you feel about the 3e Forgotten Realms Cosmology and Eberrons Cosmology for planar adventures instead of the great wheel?


----------



## QuietBrowser (Feb 7, 2018)

gyor said:


> Interesting perpective. How do you feel about the 3e Forgotten Realms Cosmology and Eberrons Cosmology for planar adventures instead of the great wheel?




I can't say I feel anything about them. I don't know the first thing about them. I only know the Great Wheel (2e/3e/5e) and the World Axis with any real solidity; I've never had the chance to read any of the reference material for 3e Faerun's planar cosmology (the World Tree?) or Eberron's.


----------



## QuietBrowser (Feb 7, 2018)

Just wanted to get a few things off of my chest now that I finally caught up on the end of the thread.

Firstly, I am really, really disappointed that after the wonderful "End of Human Domination" design angle they had in 4e, they have explicitly turned their back on it and returned to suckling from that dry and withered teat.

Secondly, Planescape Eladrin as a higher-ranked, more magically powerful form of the "mystical elf" Eladrin PC race is not unique to 5e, it's actually how they were handled in 4e - Ghaele, Bralani, Coure and all the rest were different esoteric ranks of nobility and authority within the Court of Stars. In fact, the very first 4e Monster Manual had the Bralani of Autumn Winds and the Ghaele of Winter as enemies, with the Coure of Mischief & Strife appearing in the MM2.

Finally, I'm not hugely fussed on Shadar-kai reverting to being a fey race because it seems like a cheap way to cheat them out of having their actual shadow-melding and other unique racial powers, but I can enjoy it when I think on how this inadvertently gives a huge middle finger to old-school lore that elves never, ever get involved in necromancy or anything relating to it.


----------



## Parmandur (Feb 7, 2018)

QuietBrowser said:


> Just wanted to get a few things off of my chest now that I finally caught up on the end of the thread.
> 
> Firstly, I am really, really disappointed that after the wonderful "End of Human Domination" design angle they had in 4e, they have explicitly turned their back on it and returned to suckling from that dry and withered teat.
> 
> ...



Most PCs are Human or Half-Elf, and most fantasy is human-centric: abandoning a losing financial strategy is just good business.


----------



## Olive (Feb 7, 2018)

gyor said:


> Interesting perpective. How do you feel about the 3e Forgotten Realms Cosmology and Eberrons Cosmology for planar adventures instead of the great wheel?




I use a vague hack of the 3e FR cosmology for my games. I never really liked the Great Wheel as it tied too closely to alignment which has never been anything more than a guide for us.

Edit: What was up with my spelling?


----------



## Jester David (Feb 7, 2018)

QuietBrowser said:


> Okay, I know that this is really himing in far too late, but I needed to challenge this:
> 
> The Blood War as never "over" in 4th edition. It was still around. There were a grand total of four changes; three to the Blood War itself, and one to how the planar sourcebooks were written.
> 
> ...



The February 1st Dragon Talk goes into it quite a bit and justifies the evil vs evil feud nicely without going into Moorcockian law vs chaos per se...


----------



## Charlaquin (Feb 7, 2018)

QuietBrowser said:


> Just wanted to get a few things off of my chest now that I finally caught up on the end of the thread.
> 
> Firstly, I am really, really disappointed that after the wonderful "End of Human Domination" design angle they had in 4e, they have explicitly turned their back on it and returned to suckling from that dry and withered teat.



What else is new? 5e is threw out every last drop of 4e’s perfectly good bathwater with that ugly ass baby. It sucks, but it seems to be working for them. At least this particular good idea that got abandoned because screw 4e is purely setting and can easily be put back into the game.



QuietBrowser said:


> Secondly, Planescape Eladrin as a higher-ranked, more magically powerful form of the "mystical elf" Eladrin PC race is not unique to 5e, it's actually how they were handled in 4e - Ghaele, Bralani, Coure and all the rest were different esoteric ranks of nobility and authority within the Court of Stars. In fact, the very first 4e Monster Manual had the Bralani of Autumn Winds and the Ghaele of Winter as enemies, with the Coure of Mischief & Strife appearing in the MM2.



Yep.



QuietBrowser said:


> Finally, I'm not hugely fussed on Shadar-kai reverting to being a fey race because it seems like a cheap way to cheat them out of having their actual shadow-melding and other unique racial powers, but I can enjoy it when I think on how this inadvertently gives a huge middle finger to old-school lore that elves never, ever get involved in necromancy or anything relating to it.



I’m not familiar with this particular bit of old school lore, given that Baelnorn were a thing. But, I agree that Shadar-Kai being Elves now doesn’t particularly bother me. I’d prefer them to be their own race entirely rather than a subrace of anything, but eh. At least we’ve still got Tieflings, and if the UA subraces make it in, they could each be descended from a different Turathi house.


----------



## Quickleaf (Feb 7, 2018)

gyor said:


> Looking at the picture again, looking at what the bat winged woman is wearing, there is no way she is Glasya, Fierna, or Malcanthet. So a Cambion variant is most likely.
> 
> Hordlings sound like an interesting choice, expanding the fiendish races.




https://i.imgur.com/fhpBm7M_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

Actually, it could very well be Malcanthet, just a twist on her classic artistic depictions.

















Not too far of a leap from those to this...


----------



## Shasarak (Feb 7, 2018)

QuietBrowser said:


> In the end... what I want out of a planar setting is far closer to Planescape: Torment - the game where you midwife a pregnant street, traverse the subterranean streets of a necropolis full of civilized undead, interact with the prostitutes at an intellectualistic brothel, and explore a fortress built from crystalized regret, all with the aid of a wisecracking skull, a fiend-blooded street urchin, an alien warrior-wizard with a deep secular religion, a chaste succubus, and Nordom. I want the kind of setting where I can truly embrace the wonders and weirdness of the multiverse. The kind of setting where a party comprised of a prime-worlder androgynous black mage trying to reshape his destiny, a half-marilith gnoll who is one of Yeenoghu's abandoned daughters, a duthka'gith out to free her people from Vlaakith CLVII's slavery, a tanuki ninja and the faerie dragon equivalent of a kobold would not attract more than a few stares.




I may not exactly agree with your conclusion but those images really put the  Yeah back into Planescape for sure.


----------



## Sadras (Feb 7, 2018)

This book is exactly what I'm currently needing for where my high level campaign is at.
I for one am happy!


----------



## Herosmith14 (Feb 7, 2018)

Quickleaf said:


> https://i.imgur.com/fhpBm7M_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium
> 
> Actually, it could very well be Malcanthet, just a twist on her classic artistic depictions.
> 
> ...




I may be wrong about this (still new to DND, don't k ow any past edition lore) but the cover person looks like an Erinyes to me. I know they typically have angel wings, but other than that, I would think it's a deva-turned-devil.


Sent from my iPhone using EN World mobile app


----------



## gyor (Feb 7, 2018)

Quickleaf said:


> https://i.imgur.com/fhpBm7M_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium
> 
> Actually, it could very well be Malcanthet, just a twist on her classic artistic depictions.
> 
> ...




 Yeah, it appears it could be Malcanthet, I hope it is.


----------



## gyor (Feb 7, 2018)

Herosmith14 said:


> I may be wrong about this (still new to DND, don't k ow any past edition lore) but the cover person looks like an Erinyes to me. I know they typically have angel wings, but other than that, I would think it's a deva-turned-devil.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using EN World mobile app




 Eyrines have feathered wings, except in 4e where they were ugly and brutish.


----------



## MechaTarrasque (Feb 7, 2018)

It seems like it wouldn't take much to give celestial elves a little more juice to stand out from their humanoid counterparts.  Something like:

Blessing of Arborea:  each celestial elf can do one of the following:

Cast Investiture of Flame once per day
Cast Investiture of Stone once per day
Cast Investiture of Ice once per day
Cast Investiture of Wind once per day
Use his/her action to polymorph into a sprite (or back) (no limit per times per day)

Sure for a celestial elf archmage, that isn't super impressive, but for a celestial elf berserker or knight (or even commoner), that could make a big difference in play.


----------



## GarrettKP (Feb 7, 2018)

MechaTarrasque said:


> It seems like it wouldn't take much to give celestial elves a little more juice to stand out from their humanoid counterparts. Something like:
> 
> Blessing of Arborea: each celestial elf can do one of the following:
> 
> ...




Way too powerful for a Racial ability. No race lets you cast anything more than a 3rd level spell once a day. This lets them cast 4 level 6 spells and a level 4 spell once a day each. Definition of OP.

Now for a NPC or monster stat block? Ya that is fine.


----------



## Kobold Avenger (Feb 7, 2018)

I certainly hope this book brings up Pale Night, the Mother of Demons and mother of Grazz't and other Demon Lords who's true form is so horrific reality itself rejects it.  

One of the points brought up about the Blood War in the past was that the unified army of Fiends almost destroyed the Upper Planes and all the Celestials, and that the Celestials are certainly involved behind the scenes in ensuring the Blood War continues so that they don't face Armageddon again.

As for monsters that would appear in the book I think that the Molydeus would most certainly appear, as it's one of the powerful demon types that was excluded from the Monster Manual.  There's only 4 types of Yugoloths in the Monster Manual, so things types like the Piscoloth and Dergholoth would probably be included.

In terms of the PC races, I think it's going to be somewhat disappointing to me if they're using the exact content they were using in the recent UA articles.  They probably should have done something more substantial about the Planetouched in general and consolidated all the many many varieities, which nothing suggests they're doing.


----------



## MechaTarrasque (Feb 7, 2018)

GarrettKP said:


> Way too powerful for a Racial ability. No race lets you cast anything more than a 3rd level spell once a day. This lets them cast 4 level 6 spells and a level 4 spell once a day each. Definition of OP.




Sorry, I should have been more clear, this is an ability for celestial elf NPC's, not humanoid elves.  Since so far in 5e, PC's racial options have only been humanoids, it would not be for them.

Also, to be specific, it only lets a given celestial elf cast one spell per day.


----------



## GarrettKP (Feb 7, 2018)

MechaTarrasque said:


> Sorry, I should have been more clear, this is an ability for celestial elf NPC's, not humanoid elves.  Since so far in 5e, PC's racial options have only been humanoids, it would not be for them.
> 
> Also, to be specific, it only lets a given celestial elf cast one spell per day.




Gotcha. Ya I wasn't sure which way you were going with it.


----------



## Parmandur (Feb 7, 2018)

Kobold Avenger said:


> In terms of the PC races, I think it's going to be somewhat disappointing to me if they're using the exact content they were using in the recent UA articles.  They probably should have done something more substantial about the Planetouched in general and consolidated all the many many varieities, which nothing suggests they're doing.




I see no reason to suggest that they aren't doing so, and in the recent Beyond Tieflings video Mearls specifically brought up Planetouched as a separate race.


----------



## GarrettKP (Feb 7, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> I see no reason to suggest that they aren't doing so, and in the recent Beyond Tieflings video Mearls specifically brought up Planetouched as a separate race.




They also said that other Races they haven't teased yet will be in the book. So a planetouched race is still very possible.


----------



## gyor (Feb 7, 2018)

GarrettKP said:


> They also said that other Races they haven't teased yet will be in the book. So a planetouched race is still very possible.




 Where did they say that?


----------



## GarrettKP (Feb 7, 2018)

gyor said:


> Where did they say that?




IIRC they said so during the Dragon Talk segment with Crawford and Irwin.


----------



## MechaTarrasque (Feb 7, 2018)

No problem.  That would have been an impressively OP racial feat....

I don't mind celestial versions of elves "replacing" pre-4e eladrin, but I would like some kind of power up (I am not fond of "I went to Arborea, and all I fought were the same elves I could have fought back home"). It wouldn't hurt my feelings to have something similar for the goblinoids and orcs of Archeron and the dwarves of Arcadia. 

You did get me thinking that one size fits all isn't a good plan either:

So if the celestial elves base CR is 2 or smaller, they can get one of the following effects:

Use an action to polymorph into a sprite (or back) 3/day
Use an action to polymorph into a dolphin (or back) 3/day
Know and be able to cast one of the following spells:
Armor of Agathys 3/day
Fire Shield 1/day
Wind Wall 1/day

If the base CR is 3 or higher, they can get one of the following effects:

Use their action to polymorph into a will o' the wisp (or back) 3/day or 
Cast Investiture of Flame 1/day
Cast Investiture of Stone 1/day
Cast Investiture of Ice 1/day
Cast Investiture of Wind 1/day


----------



## Aldarc (Feb 7, 2018)

QuietBrowser said:


> I can't say I feel anything about them. I don't know the first thing about them. I only know the Great Wheel (2e/3e/5e) and the World Axis with any real solidity; I've never had the chance to read any of the reference material for 3e Faerun's planar cosmology (the World Tree?) or Eberron's.



I would say that Eberron's grouping of the planes (1) reinforces Eberron's conceit of the "Baker's Dozen," with twelve planes and one hidden/lost one, and (2) groups planes more thematically as opposed to alignment-based. So on this latter point, for example, Eberron's plane of Fernia is more generally the plane of fire, and it contains fire elementals, azers, efreeti, fire-themed devils, and fire-themed demons.


----------



## jasper (Feb 7, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> We are getting the Archdevils here.



Great I need arch support, my feet are burning.


----------



## gyor (Feb 7, 2018)

MechaTarrasque said:


> No problem.  That would have been an impressively OP racial feat....
> 
> I don't mind celestial versions of elves "replacing" pre-4e eladrin, but I would like some kind of power up (I am not fond of "I went to Arborea, and all I fought were the same elves I could have fought back home"). It wouldn't hurt my feelings to have something similar for the goblinoids and orcs of Archeron and the dwarves of Arcadia.
> 
> ...




 They aren't exactly the same elves,  certain spells like charm person that target only humanoids normally don't work on them,  but spells like Planar Binding that work on Celestials do.  Plus they can be summoned by spells like Planar Ally and created by Conjure Celestial.


----------



## dave2008 (Feb 7, 2018)

Quickleaf said:


> https://i.imgur.com/fhpBm7M_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium
> 
> Actually, it could very well be Malcanthet, just a twist on her classic artistic depictions.
> 
> Not too far of a leap from those to this...




I think your right.  I originally thought maybe Glasya, but she doesn't typically have the big horns of Mal.  This image appears to have large horns (could be a helmet), just rendered a little differently.


----------



## dave2008 (Feb 7, 2018)

Herosmith14 said:


> I may be wrong about this (still new to DND, don't k ow any past edition lore) but the cover person looks like an Erinyes to me. I know they typically have angel wings, but other than that, I would think it's a deva-turned-devil.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using EN World mobile app




If the size is correct, then it is to big to be an Erinyes (and the wings are wrong - still feathers in 5e).


----------



## dave2008 (Feb 7, 2018)

gyor said:


> Looking at the picture again, looking at what the bat winged woman is wearing, there is no way she is Glasya, Fierna, or Malcanthet. So a Cambion variant is most likely.




Why not Mal?  To much clothes?  That could easily be artistic license.  It is just too big to be a cambion - but that could be artistic license too.


----------



## MechaTarrasque (Feb 7, 2018)

gyor said:


> They aren't exactly the same elves,  certain spells like charm person that target only humanoids normally don't work on them,  but spells like Planar Binding that work on Celestials do.  Plus they can be summoned by spells like Planar Ally and created by Conjure Celestial.




That is true, but this is one of those "flavor to taste" issues, and it doesn't quite do it for me.  For other people, that may be fine. I was good with the 4e court-related eladrin, and it won't hurt my feelings in the least if humanoid eladrin (or elves in general) get the same NPC options, but I would like the celestials to get a little more kick.  

[I do think the value of planar ally and conjure celestial are enhanced by this, although it makes the CR limitations on CC annoying].


----------



## Elderbrain (Feb 7, 2018)

QuietBrowser said:


> Just wanted to get a few things off of my chest now that I finally caught up on the end of the thread.
> 
> Firstly, I am really, really disappointed that after the wonderful "End of Human Domination" design angle they had in 4e, they have explicitly turned their back on it and returned to suckling from that dry and withered teat.
> 
> ...




Eh, not quite. The names were recycled, but a 4e "Coure" was quite different from a 2e Coure; among other things, the 4e version is human sized while the 2e version is the size of a pixie and had wings. Old school Eladrin didn't just have different ranks per name, they had different sizes and body shapes, not just different powers, in the same way that a Mane differs in size and shape from a Marilith, a Balor, or a Yochlol. They're all demons, sure, but the difference between a Marilith and a Balor is more than just rank, they physically differ. If 4e had taken the same approach to demons that it took to Eladrin, they would all be the same size with the same body plan. (i.e. all 4e Eladrin are medium-sized and human-shaped, with no wings, etc.) And I can't recall any statement in old-school lore to the effect that Elves never become Necromancers, but maybe I missed it. If the 5e Eladrin in Arborea turn out to be the 4e "super" Eladrin, I will be sorely disappointed... Remember, originally Eladrin were NOT elves (nor were Shadar-Kai, which were Fey but not elves).


----------



## Quickleaf (Feb 7, 2018)

Elderbrain said:


> Eh, not quite. The names were recycled, but a 4e "Coure" was quite different from a 2e Coure; among other things, the 4e version is human sized while the 2e version is the size of a pixie and had wings. Old school Eladrin didn't just have different ranks per name, they had different sizes and body shapes, not just different powers, in the same way that a Mane differs in size and shape from a Marilith, a Balor, or a Yochlol. They're all demons, sure, but the difference between a Marilith and a Balor is more than just rank, they physically differ. If 4e had taken the same approach to demons that it took to Eladrin, they would all be the same size with the same body plan. (i.e. all 4e Eladrin are medium-sized and human-shaped, with no wings, etc.) And I can't recall any statement in old-school lore to the effect that Elves never become Necromancers, but maybe I missed it. If the 5e Eladrin in Arborea turn out to be the 4e "super" Eladrin, I will be sorely disappointed... Remember, originally Eladrin were NOT elves (nor were Shadar-Kai, which were Fey but not elves).




In the Febuary 5 Dragon Talk Jeremy Crawford was talking about going back to the origin story of how the elves – once fey beings – became divided into all the various subraces of elves that we have in D&D. Eladrin seem to be exalted or progenitor elves, at least that's what he seems to be saying, and that their forms are more mutable, so one can transform into a new faerie form. Definitely worth a listen too, as it actually sounds like they've found a way to resolve the various versions of eladrin quite nicely.


----------



## gyor (Feb 8, 2018)

Just listened to the Dragon+ interview with Mike Mearls (it's 60% or more about foot balls despite saying it's about MTOF and most of the rest is about other D&D stuff,  they only talking about MTOF a tiny bit). 

 Moloch and the Eidolon are in MTOF and share some back story (both we're based on the original cover art the one with the eyes being pried out of the Idol),  Moloch is a unique devil,  powerful,  but not one of the nine,  and an Eidolon like in 4e is a Idol Construct. 

 This makes me think it's even more likely that Malchanet is in MTOF if a devil like Moloch is in.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Feb 8, 2018)

Elderbrain said:


> Eh, not quite. The names were recycled, but a 4e "Coure" was quite different from a 2e Coure; among other things, the 4e version is human sized while the 2e version is the size of a pixie and had wings. Old school Eladrin didn't just have different ranks per name, they had different sizes and body shapes, not just different powers, in the same way that a Mane differs in size and shape from a Marilith, a Balor, or a Yochlol. They're all demons, sure, but the difference between a Marilith and a Balor is more than just rank, they physically differ. If 4e had taken the same approach to demons that it took to Eladrin, they would all be the same size with the same body plan. (i.e. all 4e Eladrin are medium-sized and human-shaped, with no wings, etc.) And I can't recall any statement in old-school lore to the effect that Elves never become Necromancers, but maybe I missed it. If the 5e Eladrin in Arborea turn out to be the 4e "super" Eladrin, I will be sorely disappointed... Remember, originally Eladrin were NOT elves (nor were Shadar-Kai, which were Fey but not elves).




I have to think that they will be more like the 2e eladrin. This edition often tends more towards old-school when it comes to its monsters. And I can't see them making 5 -6 "Super Eladrin" that are basically all the same, just one more powerful than the next. Crawford's discussion on how all the various elven forms are just reflections of their ancient ability to take on different forms would likely be reflected in the various eladrin forms as well...


----------



## Olive (Feb 8, 2018)

I'm a bit grumpy as I was keen to get the limited edition cover but the game shop I would normally get it from is charging A$80 for it as opposed to A$60 for the normal cover. I'm sure he'll seel them but I thought the point of the covers was that you could only get them in game shops and so you'd go there, not Amazon/Book Depository not to gouge for limited editon covers.

Is this normal FLGS practice elsewhere?


----------



## Kobold Avenger (Feb 8, 2018)

It's doubtful it'll touch much on Spelljammer (and there's things about how space works in SJ that I'm not a fan of) but I feel that the idea that there's an Elven Imperial Navy should establish that Elves sort of have an loosely affiliated multi-world empire, even if they aren't dominant on most worlds.  

On the subject of monsters, I feel Archons are likely, Guardinals maybe, but I wouldn't be surprised there are no Rilmani as they're generally the last ones considered of the "alignment races". I'd like Ethergaunts and Kaorti to show up was they were my favourite of the new monsters in 3e's Fiend Folio.  Psurlons could from Dark Sun could show up, but likely not given their psionic nature and how they seem to make the Astral Plane overcrowded with threats.  

If they haven't announced all the PC races, then maybe the Genasi get reprinted, I think 4e tried to make the Jann into Genasi, and Dark Sun's Rukova(?) are most likely Genasi too.


----------



## Ibrandul (Feb 8, 2018)

Olive said:


> I'm a bit grumpy as I was keen to get the limited edition cover but the game shop I would normally get it from is charging A$80 for it as opposed to A$60 for the normal cover. I'm sure he'll seel them but I thought the point of the covers was that you could only get them in game shops and so you'd go there, not Amazon/Book Depository not to gouge for limited editon covers.
> 
> Is this normal FLGS practice elsewhere?




All the local game stores around me (southern New England, USA) have sold the alternate covers for full MSRP, whereas they usually mark the regular versions at some kind of discount in order to compete with online retailers (even though they never discount the regular books as heavily as e.g. Amazon).

This seems fair to me, and I've happily paid full price for the alt covers. But I would be irritated to see any markup higher than MSRP, at least if the book wasn't more than a few weeks old.

Your situation might be complicated by your location outside the USA, if there's no hard-and-fast MSRP set for your region. But the price difference you cite is roughly equivalent to the difference hereabouts between MSRP (49.95 USD), which I've been paying in local stores for the alt covers, and the going rates for the regular versions of the same books in the same stores (35.00-40.00 on average). Hope that helps set your mind at ease!


----------



## darjr (Feb 8, 2018)

[MENTION=1297]Olive[/MENTION] That unreasonable markup may also be in violation of their WotC WPN agreement and put them in peril of losing their WPN status. Without WPN they couldn’t sell that book at all and lose a ton of magic events and other instore D&D events.


----------



## Swift Nimblefoot (Feb 9, 2018)

Wow. This all sounds so, so... 4E like. Shadar-Kai, Shadowfell, elves as shapeshifters? Noooot sure I want this right after I was glad that 5E moved back to the 2E ways.


----------



## Parmandur (Feb 9, 2018)

Swift Nimblefoot said:


> Wow. This all sounds so, so... 4E like. Shadar-Kai, Shadowfell, elves as shapeshifters? Noooot sure I want this right after I was glad that 5E moved back to the 2E ways.



I'll take this reaction as a good sign, since the 4E guys were just grousing about how 2E it sounds.


----------



## Charlaquin (Feb 9, 2018)

Swift Nimblefoot said:


> Wow. This all sounds so, so... 4E like. Shadar-Kai, Shadowfell, elves as shapeshifters? Noooot sure I want this right after I was glad that 5E moved back to the 2E ways.




Yeah, I don’t know what this is like, but it’s not 4e.

Which, to be clear, I don’t consider a bad thing. Or a good thing. If we could all just stop judging 5e by how much or little it resembles 4e and just judge each edition on its own merits, that would be lovely.


----------



## Li Shenron (Feb 9, 2018)

What is the source that says 150 new monsters? The product description says only "dozens" of new monsters, which sounds to me a lot less than 150.


----------



## The Big BZ (Feb 9, 2018)

Li Shenron said:


> What is the source that says 150 new monsters? The product description says only "dozens" of new monsters, which sounds to me a lot less than 150.




Jeremy Crawford on one of the Twitch shows


----------



## darjr (Feb 9, 2018)

130 not 150. Almost half the book.


----------



## Herosmith14 (Feb 9, 2018)

Charlaquin said:


> Yeah, I don’t know what this is like, but it’s not 4e.
> 
> Which, to be clear, I don’t consider a bad thing. Or a good thing. If we could all just stop judging 5e by how much or little it resembles 4e and just judge each edition on its own merits, that would be lovely.




Dear Mr Charlaquin,

We are the internet, and we have some news for you...

In all seriousness, I get the complaint, but it just human nature to judge by comparison. Really the way I think I've avoided it because I got into DND with 5e and know absolutely nothing about past editions.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Feb 9, 2018)

darjr said:


> 130 not 150. Almost half the book.



And technically that's pages of monsters, not the number of monsters itself, although the ratio of monsters to pages does tend to fall close to the 1 : 1 ratio. But if we end up with lots of monsters requiring multiple pages (such as Archdevils and Demon Lords), the overall number might end up below that..


----------



## Parmandur (Feb 9, 2018)

Li Shenron said:


> What is the source that says 150 new monsters? The product description says only "dozens" of new monsters, which sounds to me a lot less than 150.



Crawford said "130+ pages of monsters" on the latest Dragon Talk.


----------



## GarrettKP (Feb 9, 2018)

darjr said:


> 130 not 150. Almost half the book.




Pretty sure he said 130 PAGES of monsters, not 130 MONSTERS. Which could mean a little more or a little less than 130. Remember the Dukes of Hell probably take 2 pages each, and they may reprint the Demon Lords which also take 2 or 3 pages each. Also, the "Elder Elemental" beings they mentioned could take multiple pages. So I would not bank on 130 Monsters.


----------



## darjr (Feb 9, 2018)

I did to at first. But Kate was talking about illustrations for the monsters and that each of them got at least one, 100 of them, then he said more, 130 monsters.


----------



## darjr (Feb 9, 2018)

I’m out of my mind. Just listened to the podcast, she was talking about art pieces, 100 or more, then he said more because there are 130 pages of monsters.

So no idea of exact monster count but 130 pages of monsters. But this was was before they were done and weren’t going to send it to the printer till the next week, so who knows for sure.


----------



## Swift Nimblefoot (Feb 9, 2018)

Charlaquin said:


> Yeah, I don’t know what this is like, but it’s not 4e.
> 
> Which, to be clear, I don’t consider a bad thing. Or a good thing. If we could all just stop judging 5e by how much or little it resembles 4e and just judge each edition on its own merits, that would be lovely.



The Shadar-Kai (who are basically, pasty goth humans, aka BORING) , and the Shadowfell as a concept itself were from 4E, and neither was something I liked... nor the idea that elves/eladrin are from the Feywild (basically the faery legend First World that Pathfinder also uses). This blurb mentioning that elves were shapeshifters once leans heavily towards that origin again, and I frankly always felt that D&D does not need a separate faery world plane.


----------



## gyor (Feb 9, 2018)

Swift Nimblefoot said:


> The Shadar-Kai (who are basically, pasty goth humans, aka BORING) , and the Shadowfell as a concept itself were from 4E, and neither was something I liked... nor the idea that elves/eladrin are from the Feywild (basically the faery legend First World that Pathfinder also uses). This blurb mentioning that elves were shapeshifters once leans heavily towards that origin again, and I frankly always felt that D&D does not need a separate faery world plane.




 Shadar Kai were more the BDSM race then Goth race, they really liked and needed pain, and had no problem dishing it out, I think the Drow were more the Goth race or the Vryloki.


----------



## gyor (Feb 9, 2018)

darjr said:


> I’m out of my mind. Just listened to the podcast, she was talking about art pieces, 100 or more, then he said more because there are 130 pages of monsters.
> 
> So no idea of exact monster count but 130 pages of monsters. But this was was before they were done and weren’t going to send it to the printer till the next week, so who knows for sure.




I think in practice it will be 80-100 monsters, when adusting for double page monsters. Also concider that they might now need to put as much info in some archfiend enentries if that info is covered in the blood war section.


----------



## Li Shenron (Feb 9, 2018)

darjr said:


> I’m out of my mind. Just listened to the podcast, she was talking about art pieces, 100 or more, then he said more because there are 130 pages of monsters.
> 
> So no idea of exact monster count but 130 pages of monsters. But this was was before they were done and weren’t going to send it to the printer till the next week, so who knows for sure.




Right. Better keep hopes a bit down, considering that from those "pages of monsters" we might have to deduct 20-30 pages of random monsters names in various languages...


----------



## GarrettKP (Feb 9, 2018)

Swift Nimblefoot said:


> The Shadar-Kai (who are basically, pasty goth humans, aka BORING) , and the Shadowfell as a concept itself were from 4E, and neither was something I liked... nor the idea that elves/eladrin are from the Feywild (basically the faery legend First World that Pathfinder also uses). This blurb mentioning that elves were shapeshifters once leans heavily towards that origin again, and I frankly always felt that D&D does not need a separate faery world plane.




Shadar-Kai were introduced in 3e and were Fey. So not exactly a 4e concept (in 4e they were changed to Human).


----------



## Elderbrain (Feb 9, 2018)

Re: "Playable Mind Flayers will never, ever be a thing in D&D"... weren't Mind Flayers a playable race in the 3.5 book Savage Species? Or is my memory playing tricks on me?


----------



## Parmandur (Feb 9, 2018)

Li Shenron said:


> Right. Better keep hopes a bit down, considering that from those "pages of monsters" we might have to deduct 20-30 pages of random monsters names in various languages...



Well, it is true, they have stated there will be a number of random tables for players and DMs, because you literally cannot have enough random tables: but that is likely from the remaining page count, rather than in the bestiary.


----------



## Elderbrain (Feb 9, 2018)

Re: "Playable Mind Flayers will never, ever be a thing in D&D"... didn't the 3.5 book Savage Species include rules for PC Flayers? I could swear it did, but my memory might be playing tricks with me!

Crud, double post...


----------



## gyor (Feb 9, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Well, it is true, they have stated there will be a number of random tables for players and DMs, because you literally cannot have enough random tables: but that is likely from the remaining page count, rather than in the bestiary.




 Li Shenron was poking fun at the pages and pages of filler names in the back of XGTE,  it wasn't a serious belief that they will have pages and pages of monster names in the MTOF.


----------



## Parmandur (Feb 9, 2018)

gyor said:


> Li Shenron was poking fun at the pages and pages of filler names in the back of XGTE,  it wasn't a serious belief that they will have pages and pages of monster names in the MTOF.



Yes, I know: but seriously, there will be a lot of tables in this book, too. They are popular, and in demand.


----------



## Doc_Klueless (Feb 9, 2018)

Yeah, there are some people who poke fun at those tables... But I really love those tables and have gotten a lot of use out of them. So when he said "pages of random monsters names in various languages..," it actually piqued my interest! lol.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Feb 9, 2018)

Honestly, we're arguing semantics here. 130 pages might not result in exactly 130 monsters, but very likely somewhere comfortably above 100.

Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app


----------



## Mouseferatu (Feb 9, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> Honestly, we're arguing semantics here.




On a D&D forum? Perish the thought!


----------



## Charlaquin (Feb 9, 2018)

Swift Nimblefoot said:


> The Shadar-Kai (who are basically, pasty goth humans, aka BORING) , and the Shadowfell as a concept itself were from 4E, and neither was something I liked... nor the idea that elves/eladrin are from the Feywild (basically the faery legend First World that Pathfinder also uses). This blurb mentioning that elves were shapeshifters once leans heavily towards that origin again, and I frankly always felt that D&D does not need a separate faery world plane.



Wow, everything you just said is wrong.

Shadar-Kai first appeared in 3rd Edition, and in that first appearance they were Fey from the Plane of Shadow. If anything, making them Elves instead of humans in 5e brings them back to their 3e Fey roots. The name, “Shadowfell” originated in 4e, but the concept behind it is as old as AD&D, when it was called the Demiplane of Shadows, later just the Plane of Shadow in 3e. Though in 4e and 5e it got another new name and stole some feature of the Negative Energy Plane. In Stranger Things they call it the Vale of Shadows, although that name isn’t accurate to any edition.

They feywild is likewise not a new concept to 4e, though it did gain a lot more importance in 4e. But both Forgotten Realms and Planescape had concepts of a faerie world before 4e fleshed it out and gave it a name. Elves having formerly been shapeshifters has nothing to do with 4e, and appears to be an attempt at explaining the absurd degree of biodiversity among elves in D&D, as well as reconcile 4e Eladrin (which were basically just 4e’s high elves) with pre-4e Eladrin, which were planar creatures more comparable to the Fey-equivalent of Tieflings or Genasi.

So, you don’t have to like these changes, but claiming that them being too much like 4e as your reason for disliking them is either misinformed or disingenuous. Because it’s definitely making 5e _less_ like 4e. Which again, isn’t a good or bad thing on its own. Love it or hate it, do it because that’s how you feel about the presentation as it is, not because of a perceived resemblance to an Edition you associate with everything you dislike in D&D.


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## Parmandur (Feb 9, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> Honestly, we're arguing semantics here. 130 pages might not result in exactly 130 monsters, but very likely somewhere comfortably above 100.
> 
> Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app



More than Volo's, most likely.


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## Herosmith14 (Feb 9, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> More than Volo's, most likely.




Eh, we'll see. It might, but I also believe Volos may have been smaller.


Sent from my iPhone using EN World mobile app


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## darjr (Feb 9, 2018)

It does seem like they bumped the page count of this book recently.


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## Demetrios1453 (Feb 10, 2018)

darjr said:


> It does seem like they bumped the page count of this book recently.



I'm guessing the good sales and good buzz from recent releases have resulted in permission to bump the page count upwards, which is good news for everyone.

Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app


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## Parmandur (Feb 10, 2018)

Herosmith14 said:


> Eh, we'll see. It might, but I also believe Volos may have been smaller.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using EN World mobile app



Well, yeah, obviously: smaller because fewer monsters.


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## Quickleaf (Feb 10, 2018)

Charlaquin said:


> Shadar-Kai first appeared in 3rd Edition, and in that first appearance they were Fey from the Plane of Shadow. If anything, making them Elves instead of humans in 5e brings them back to their 3e Fey roots. The name, “Shadowfell” originated in 4e, but the concept behind it is as old as AD&D, when it was called the Demiplane of Shadows, later just the Plane of Shadow in 3e. Though in 4e and 5e it got another new name and stole some feature of the Negative Energy Plane. In Stranger Things they call it the Vale of Shadows, although that name isn’t accurate to any edition.




Shadow Elves is reminding me of Mystara...


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## The Hierophant (Feb 10, 2018)

Quickleaf said:


> Shadow Elves is reminding me of Mystara...




They're B/X drow aren't they?


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## gyor (Feb 10, 2018)

Quickleaf said:


> Shadow Elves is reminding me of Mystara...




 She even has the piercings like a Shadar Kai!


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## Azzy (Feb 10, 2018)

Pre-ordered!


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## Quickleaf (Feb 10, 2018)

The Hierophant said:


> They're B/X drow aren't they?




Kinda. There are several similarities that could lead to equating Shadow Elves with Drow...

1.  They both dwell underground.
2.  They both have a matriarchal society, or at the very least a matriarchal religion and religious leaders.
3.  They are both perceived as being evil. However the Shadow Elves seem more Neutral, and more isolationist than Drow with their wicked plans for the surface world.
4.  They are both referred to using terms usually reserved for less than wholesome things, i.e. dark and shadow.

With the Shadow Elves, IIRC, they had "engineers" that caused some kind of magical "nuclear bomb" which resulted in them being cast out of Alfheim. They hate the elves of Alfheim, but are otherwise coldly indifferent to other surface races. Honestly, it's hard to remember much from back in those days as I was a kid. I do know a Shadow Elf appeared in _Uncaged: Faces of Sigil_ in the Planescape line.


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## FitzTheRuke (Feb 11, 2018)

Edit: This comment is in response to the talk about marking-up the price of the special cover, but I lost my quote:

Speaking as the owner of a Comic and Game store for 25 years, this sounds like a strange practice to me. 

They are specifically made so we can compete with online discounters, not so we can gouge our customers. It's not something I would do. Some retailers get overly fixated on what they see will be the eventual aftermarket value of the book (like they do when they mark-up "hot" comics.)  Again, I personally  think that there should (in the very least) be a delay time between something being released, and it being "worth money" in the aftermarket sense.

Or in other words, it should go for regular price before it goes for "collector's mark-up". (My gut likes this time to be measured in years, but the world does stuff faster these days!)


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## vecna00 (Feb 11, 2018)

Elderbrain said:


> Re: "Playable Mind Flayers will never, ever be a thing in D&D"... weren't Mind Flayers a playable race in the 3.5 book Savage Species? Or is my memory playing tricks on me?




You are 102% correct.


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## Herosmith14 (Feb 11, 2018)

Uh, just a thought. What do you think is the likelihood we'll see a Genazi and/or Aarocokra reprint? Both have ties to elemental PLANES, and in Aa's case, them having flight doesn't rule them out because Avariel might wind up in there. This would obviously make the EEPC completely useless, because all of its content will have been split up among other crunch books. Deep Gnome in SCAG Goliath in VGtM, spells in XGtE, and possibly Aarocokra/Genazi in MToF.


Sent from my iPhone using EN World


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## Winterthorn (Feb 11, 2018)

Quickleaf said:


> Shadow Elves is reminding me of Mystara...




I happen to have my copy on hand as I am working on my own 5E campaign setting.  I did not know Shadar-kai were originally elves, but now I see a way of blending the material of GAZ 13 with the Shadowfell and the elven kind that may be native there.  I have already set the Drow as an evil off-shoot corrupted by Lolth from the Shadow Elves/Shadar-kai that left the Shadowfell to invade the Underdark of my campaign world, just as the High, Wood, and other elves are off-shoots of the Eladrin dwelling in the Feywild.  There is much more to my setting, as a WIP, but predicated upon Shadar-kai being originally elves GAZ 13 has found new use to me!


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## Jester David (Feb 11, 2018)

Elderbrain said:


> Re: "Playable Mind Flayers will never, ever be a thing in D&D"... weren't Mind Flayers a playable race in the 3.5 book Savage Species? Or is my memory playing tricks on me?




They were in the game with a PC write-up, but they weren't _playable_.


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## Demetrios1453 (Feb 11, 2018)

Mearls on Twitter, responding to a question asking if the phoenix will be in MToF:

"Funny story - we kept deleting it from the book, but every day when we went back to work it would be back in there and my desk would be on fire."


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## gyor (Feb 11, 2018)

I'm wondering it the idea of the Elves having started off as shaoeshifting Fey will tie into the Leshay. 

 The Leshay we're one of the Creator Races of Faerun along with the Sarrukh, the  Batrachi,  the Aaerie,  and humans. 

 The Leshay we're said to have created the lesser fey races,  to have been immortal,  and to have been Fey shape shutters. They look very similar to Elves,  but far more powerful (epic powerful). 

 Perhaps MTOF has Elves descended from the Leshay.


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## darjr (Feb 19, 2018)

Tome of Foes updated on Amazon to 256 pages. 

It's down to $30 and it's 141 out of all books.

View attachment 94366


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## gyor (Feb 20, 2018)

You can add that Eidilons and Moloch the devil are in the book,  I got the info from the Dragon+ YouTube video interview with Mike Mearls.


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## cbwjm (Feb 20, 2018)

I just preordered this from Amazon after receiving an email from them that it was available to order. There was a moment of hesitation then I thought to myself, "It's not like I'm not going to get it." and I hit the order button.


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## gyor (Feb 20, 2018)

"Blood War, Githzerai vs Githyanki, elves vs drow, dwarves vs. duergar, other planar conflicts; also under dark vs planar conflicts such a Gith vs Mindflayers."

 I haven't heard of any other Planar Conflicts aside from the Blood War,  Gith/Mindflayer,  Elf,  Dwarf conflicts,  where did you hear about other Planar Conflicts? It has me curious. I could see Elemental conflicts hypothetically. 

 Oh and you also forgot there will be a Chapter on Halflings/Gnomes!

 That means that Dwarves,  Tieflings,  Elves (possibly Half Elves by extension),  Halflings,  Gnomes will b explored in the book,  which means of the core book races only Dragonborn,  Half Orcs,  and Humans will not be in explored in this book. 

 I think Dragonborn will get their moment to shine when they do the Dragon version of this type of book (you know a Soandso's Book/Tome/Guide to Dragons/Dragonlike creatures is only a matter of time) and Half Orcs and Orcs got their moment in Volo's Guide to Monsters.


----------



## gyor (Feb 20, 2018)

Given that we will be getting Monsters linked to all these conflicts (Fiends/the Blood War,  Elves/Elven based Monsters, Dwarf/Duergar & Psionic Constructs,  Gnomes/Clockwork Constructs,  Gith/who knows what?), I'm wondering if we get some kind of monsters related to Halflings?

 I did some research and originally Lepruachans and Brownies we're said to be a mix of Halfling and Pixie blood back the original MM. 

 And Jerran the evil Halfling race from the Book of Vile Darkness would make for an interesting monster.


----------



## Kobold Avenger (Feb 20, 2018)

gyor said:


> I haven't heard of any other Planar Conflicts aside from the Blood War,  Gith/Mindflayer,  Elf,  Dwarf conflicts,  where did you hear about other Planar Conflicts? It has me curious. I could see Elemental conflicts hypothetically.



From Planescape I remember there was the Djinn vs Efreet conflict, and another conflict between the various types of Mephits.  But I think it was mostly opposed Elements against each other Fire vs Water and Earth vs Air.


----------



## cbwjm (Feb 20, 2018)

Kobold Avenger said:


> From Planescape I remember there was the Djinn vs Efreet conflict, and another conflict between the various types of Mephits.  But I think it was mostly opposed Elements against each other Fire vs Water and Earth vs Air.



Also there were the elemental lords of evil who were opposed by the elemental lords of good which might be mentioned.

I wonder if the law vs chaos conflict will be mentioned along with the rod of 7 parts.


----------



## Herosmith14 (Feb 20, 2018)

Kobold Avenger said:


> From Planescape I remember there was the Djinn vs Efreet conflict, and another conflict between the various types of Mephits.  But I think it was mostly opposed Elements against each other Fire vs Water and Earth vs Air.




From my, admittedly fairly limited, experience with DND, the big elemental hondlict is pretty much EVERYTHING vs efreet. The enslaved the azers, allied with the salamanders, at least in critical role they enslaved the fire giants, they have a lot of enemies with few allies, from my limited experience.


----------



## gyor (Feb 20, 2018)

Herosmith14 said:


> From my, admittedly fairly limited, experience with DND, the big elemental hondlict is pretty much EVERYTHING vs efreet. The enslaved the azers, allied with the salamanders, at least in critical role they enslaved the fire giants, they have a lot of enemies with few allies, from my limited experience.




 Efreets do have many enemies, but its not the only conflict, Gargoyles launch attacks against the plane of Air.


----------



## MechaTarrasque (Feb 20, 2018)

cbwjm said:


> Also there were the elemental lords of evil who were opposed by the elemental lords of good which might be mentioned.
> 
> I wonder if the law vs chaos conflict will be mentioned along with the rod of 7 parts.




Although I think the Blood War will be the main law vs. chaos conflict, I would be happy if they threw in some other L vs. C conflict as well (and some good vs. evil stuff beyond elves and dwarves while I am dreaming).


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Feb 27, 2018)

So, from the Dragon+ preview, we now know that we'll be seeing Geryon, maruts (and possibly the other inevitables), and the astral dreadnought covered in the book. Also, there will be setting-specific information on player races (dwarves  in the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, and Dragonlance were specifically mentioned).


----------



## Mirtek (Feb 27, 2018)

Wow, the first one where the special cover is not ugly. Will still buy the normal version as I prefer all things in a collection to share the same style.


----------



## cbwjm (Feb 27, 2018)

Mirtek said:


> Wow, the first one where the special cover is not ugly. Will still buy the normal version as I prefer all things in a collection to share the same style.



This was my dilemma. I want my books to share the same style but this is the first time where the special edition cover looks better than the standard.


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## vecna00 (Feb 28, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> So, from the Dragon+ preview, we now know that we'll be seeing Geryon, maruts (and possibly the other inevitables), and the astral dreadnought covered in the book. Also, there will be setting-specific information on player races (dwarves  in the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, and Dragonlance were specifically mentioned).




I'm curious as to what else we'll see, especially with this releasing in August.

https://icv2.com/gallery/39705/22


----------



## darjr (Feb 28, 2018)

I see modrons


----------



## Dried (Feb 28, 2018)

vecna00 said:


> I'm curious as to what else we'll see, especially with this releasing in August.
> 
> https://icv2.com/gallery/39705/22




Wait what???
Is this The Nameless One from Planescape Torment???


----------



## vecna00 (Mar 1, 2018)

Dried said:


> Wait what???
> Is this The Nameless One from Planescape Torment???




Why yes it is!


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Mar 13, 2018)

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned today's Unearthed Arcana, even outside this thread. It's a preview of a page from MToF, with some duergar personality/background charts:

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/mordenkainen%E2%80%99s-tome-foes-preview

https://media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/downloads/UA_preview_duergar.pdf


So, this is page 84, and is in Chapter 3 of the book "Dwarves and Duergar". 

A few days ago, we got this preview:

https://twitter.com/NathanBStewart/status/971522093262151680/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sageadvice.eu%2F2018%2F03%2F08%2Fgith-characters-revealed%2F

...which shows us that page 96 is in Chapter 4 "Gith and their Endless War". We know that Chapter 1 is on the Blood War, and presumably Chapter 2 is Drow vs Elves. Given the page counts of these previews, I'm guessing we're going to get a pretty substantial chapter on the Blood War to start this book off...


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Mar 13, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> I'm surprised that no one has mentioned today's Unearthed Arcana, even outside this thread. It's a preview of a page from MToF, with some duergar personality/background charts:
> 
> http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/mordenkainen%E2%80%99s-tome-foes-preview
> 
> ...




Considering I have not seen WotC, Crawford or Mearls post about this at all today on Facebook or Twitter, I am not surprised that no one has mentioned it til you just now did. The leak by Stewart I think I saw talked about briefly somewhere here, just not in this thread.


----------



## darjr (Mar 13, 2018)

It’s a day after GaryCon, they are bushed. As am I


----------



## Jester David (Mar 13, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> I'm surprised that no one has mentioned today's Unearthed Arcana, even outside this thread. It's a preview of a page from MToF, with some duergar personality/background charts:
> 
> http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/mordenkainen%E2%80%99s-tome-foes-preview
> 
> ...




I'm hard pressed to think of a less interesting page to preview...


----------



## SkidAce (Mar 13, 2018)

Jester David said:


> I'm hard pressed to think of a less interesting page to preview...




copyright page?


----------



## Prakriti (Mar 13, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> https://media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/downloads/UA_preview_duergar.pdf



So... who has good un-blurring software?


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Mar 13, 2018)

Jester David said:


> I'm hard pressed to think of a less interesting page to preview...




Yeah, it wasn't the most exciting page!

But it's useful in that it gives us some idea of how much content we might be getting in each section.


----------



## Mistwell (Mar 13, 2018)

I like the Gollum reference in the quirks section.


----------



## FlyingChihuahua (Mar 13, 2018)

It seems like they're giving the races a bit of the class quirk tables that they had in XGtE.

Excellent.


----------



## vecna00 (Mar 13, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> I'm surprised that no one has mentioned today's Unearthed Arcana, even outside this thread. It's a preview of a page from MToF, with some duergar personality/background charts:
> 
> http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/mordenkainen%E2%80%99s-tome-foes-preview
> 
> ...




I'm appreciative of their preview of the book I'm excited to purchase, but I'm a tad salty it's not a normal UA


----------



## QuietBrowser (Mar 13, 2018)

Jester David said:


> I'm hard pressed to think of a less interesting page to preview...




Amen. I mean, seriously, I can get them being tired, but surely they could have given us something with _meat_ in it! This'd be a dull page anyway, but to tie it to duergar? Do you know how _boring_ duergar are? They used to *share* the niche of "The Underdark Dwarf Strain" with the non-evil Deep Dwarves until 4th edition, for spit's sake!

Ai-yi-yah... surely they could have given us something better than this? How about a look at the PC stats for one of the new races in the game? A new monster? *Anything* would have been better than this, surely!


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Mar 13, 2018)

From some of the replies to this page tease, I am thinking no one read the text on the preview page and just clicked on the link for the page image. This was not just some random page, as it says:

"This page—showing some duergar-themed tables—gives you a taste of the sorts of tables you’ll find in Mordenkainen’s Tome of Foes, which is out this May. The book’s tables will help you flesh out different aspects of your D&D campaigns and characters."

So this is an example page of the kinds of tables we can expect in the book for all the races included in the book.


----------



## Herosmith14 (Mar 13, 2018)

QuietBrowser said:


> Amen. I mean, seriously, I can get them being tired, but surely they could have given us something with _meat_ in it! This'd be a dull page anyway, but to tie it to duergar? Do you know how _boring_ duergar are? They used to *share* the niche of "The Underdark Dwarf Strain" with the non-evil Deep Dwarves until 4th edition, for spit's sake!
> 
> Ai-yi-yah... surely they could have given us something better than this? How about a look at the PC stats for one of the new races in the game? A new monster? *Anything* would have been better than this, surely!




If I remember correctly, for Volos and Xanathars, all we got for page drops was lore, and that make sense, you don't want lots of free $ stuff out there.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Mar 13, 2018)

So, from Morris' "Is Spelljammer Coming to 5e" thread, we now know that we'll be seeing the Giff (the humanoid hippos from Spelljammer) in MToF.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Mar 14, 2018)

And more stuff from D&D Beyond's "The Drow in D&D's 'Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes'"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgP6JnWh4Ig&feature=push-u-sub&attr_tag=ZUdZr-eoQQh2baXX-6

Among other things, there will be high CR stat blocks for drow matron mothers, arachnomancers, favored consorts, and inquisitors. I was hoping to see stat blocks like these, and, while not entirely unexpected, I'm glad to see them confirmed.

Also, I love the drow society/"I, Claudius" comparison made in the video. I never thought of that before, but it's really an apt comparison and will inform how I run drow in the future!


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Mar 14, 2018)

And anyone who hasn't seen I, Claudius, should go and watch it now.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Mar 14, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> And anyone who hasn't seen I, Claudius, should go and watch it now.



Livia is so very much a drow matron mother!


----------



## Elderbrain (Mar 19, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> And more stuff from D&D Beyond's "The Drow in D&D's 'Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes'"
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgP6JnWh4Ig&feature=push-u-sub&attr_tag=ZUdZr-eoQQh2baXX-6
> 
> ...




Everybody should watch the video; one thing I found interesting is the idea that certain elves blessed by Correlon have the ability to change their gender after (I believe) a short rest. Drow sometimes receive this blessing as well, but because Drow society has such strict gender-role rules such as blessing is viewed as an abomination.


----------



## MonsterEnvy (Mar 19, 2018)

So we are going to get a preview of two monsters today in a battle between them on twitch. The Monsters appear to be (Going by the art.) a Sibriex and the ex Archdevil Moloch.

Edit: this will take place in two hours 8 minutes at the time of this edit.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Mar 19, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> So we are going to get a preview of two monsters today in a battle between them on twitch. The Monsters appear to be (Going by the art.) a Sibriex and the ex Archdevil Moloch.
> 
> Edit: this will take place in two hours 8 minutes at the time of this edit.




Someone should start a new thread just for this, since they will be doing these battles every Monday for the next 7 weeks, til the book releases.


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## Elderbrain (Mar 19, 2018)

So has it posted yet? And if so, what should I type in at twitch to get to the video?


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Mar 20, 2018)

Elderbrain said:


> So has it posted yet? And if so, what should I type in at twitch to get to the video?




It was supposed to go from 7 to 8pm eastern time, so it was only half over when you posted. It should have been finished for a little bit by now. Whenever I want to look at the stuff on Twitch, I just go the the official page there for the game: dnd

I already had an account before WotC started doing all this stuff on Twitch, so I do not know if you need an account there to view the videos/streams or not.


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## Demetrios1453 (Mar 20, 2018)

That was fun to watch, even if they did run fast and loose with the rules.

They mentioned at the end that Moloch is CR 21 and the sibriex is CR 18 (well, one is CR 21 and one is CR 18, but since the sibriex had allies, it's obvious it has the lower CR).

Can't wait to see what new monsters will battle for us next week!


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## MonsterEnvy (Mar 20, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> That was fun to watch, even if they did run fast and loose with the rules.
> 
> They mentioned at the end that Moloch is CR 21 and the sibriex is CR 18 (well, one is CR 21 and one is CR 18, but since the sibriex had allies, it's obvious it has the lower CR).
> 
> Can't wait to see what new monsters will battle for us next week!




Moloch was also nerfed.


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## MonsterEnvy (Mar 20, 2018)

Also does anyone want to make a thread for the Mayham streams?


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## gyor (Mar 20, 2018)

I will.


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## Demetrios1453 (Mar 20, 2018)

MonsterEnvy said:


> Moloch was also nerfed.




Well, last time we had heard, he was still an imp, so even nerfed, he's been buffed!

Interestingly enough, the two archdevils so far previewed are the two who have been (last we heard) deposed and exiled. While obviously this makes them the most likely to encounter adventurers, as they aren't, you know, actually ruling planar layers and stuff, I'm hoping this is just a coincidence and we're going to see the full set of archdevils detailed...


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## MonsterEnvy (Mar 20, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> Well, last time we had heard, he was still an imp, so even nerfed, he's been buffed!
> 
> Interestingly enough, the two archdevils so far previewed are the two who have been (last we heard) deposed and exiled. While obviously this makes them the most likely to encounter adventurers, as they aren't, you know, actually ruling planar layers and stuff, I'm hoping this is just a coincidence and we're going to see the full set of archdevils detailed...




It's already confirmed the full set is in.


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## Sword of Spirit (Mar 20, 2018)

I also think they are probably presenting the rulers from different eras for people who prefer not to keep up with the D&D timeline.


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## MechaTarrasque (Mar 20, 2018)

Sword of Spirit said:


> I also think they are probably presenting the rulers from different eras for people who prefer not to keep up with the D&D timeline.




Also, for all we know there will be another Reckoning, or Asmodeus will decide he is too busy being a god to spend time running a level of Hell, and appoint a steward for Nessus


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## Kobold Avenger (Mar 20, 2018)

So one of the monsters is the balloon head demon...  I remember those things.


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## Kobold Avenger (Mar 20, 2018)

Though it's not likely to happen, there should be a tie-in products called Mordenkainen's Foam of Toes.


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## darjr (Mar 20, 2018)

Release the arena they are fighting the monsters in and call it awhat Chris Lindsay called it, Dome of Foes.


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