# Comparison: Wyrmling dragon and a cat



## der_kluge (Nov 15, 2008)

That's right.  Just to prove how ridiculously over-powered dragons are in 3.5, I'm going to compare a baby dragon (wyrmling) to a cat.  A common cat. For purposes of this comparison, I'll use a Black dragon, since their wyrmlings are size tiny.

The cat is size tiny.
A wyrmling black dragon is size tiny.

A cat has 2 hit points.
A wyrmling black dragon, which is the same size as a cat has 30 hit points.

A cat has a 3 strength.
A wyrmling black dragon has an 11 strength - stronger than a good portion of the population.

A cat has a movement of 30'.
A wyrmling black dragon moves at 60 ft. - that's right, twice as fast as the fastest cat you've ever seen, can fly at 100 ft., and swims faster than Michael Phelps at 60 ft.  By way of comparison, a measly ol' 7HD Wyvern only flies at a pathetic 60' - but can fly AS FAST as an elder Air Elemental. 

A cat has claw/claw/bite attack and deals a massive (1d2-4) and (1d3-4) points of damage with those, respectively.
A wyrmling black dragon also has a claw/claw/bite attack but deals 1d3/1d3/1d4 points of damage. So, to clarify - a cat's claw is 1d2, but a dragon's claw is 1d3. So, a wyrmling black dragon, which is as big as a cat, has *sharper* claws than a cat. Unfathomable.

A cat can cough up a hair ball.
A wyrmling black dragon, which is as big as a cat, can shoot a line of acid dealing 2d4 points of acid damage *30 feet*.  Ok, take a look at the room you're in. Place a cat in the corner of the room, and then imagine a line of acid streaming from its mouth traveling 30 feet. Just imagine that. I presume such an action would kill it, because 30' worth of volume of acid would leave anything size tiny a shriveled up dessicated husk once done.

A cat has an initiative of +2.
A wyrmling black dragon has an initiative of +0 - you know, despite being a faster swimmer, runner and flyer than just about anything in the world.

As you were.


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## Runestar (Nov 15, 2008)

And a wyrmling black dragon is a whooping cr3, meaning it is supposedly as tough as an ogre, while a cat is just cr1/4.



> A housecat has the following ability score modifiers: -8 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +0 Constitution, -8 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, -4 Charisma. We can give a housecat the nonelite array without increasing its CR, and we'll assign 11 Strength, 12 Dexterity, 13 Constitution, 10 Intelligence, 9 Wisdom, and 8 Charisma. Thus, a housecat with the nonelite array distribution as given above would have the following ability scores: 3 Strength, 16 Dexterity, 13 Constitution, 2 intelligence, 11 Wisdom, 4 Charisma.
> 
> >Using Unearthed Arcana's flaw system, we can give the housecat the Meager Fortitude and Weak-Willed flaws so that it gets two free bonus feats. With three feat slots to spend, we can make the housecat take Shape Soulmeld (Airstep Sandals), Shape Soulmeld (Dissolving Spittle), and Shape Soulmeld (Soulspark Familiar). This gives it a fly speed of 10 feet with good maneuverability, a spit attack which deals 1d6 acid damage upon a successful ranged touch attack with a range of 60 feet as a standard action at will, and a useful familiar which is also a formidable combatant when compared to the housecat.
> 
> >So yeah, it's a min-maxed flying housecat that can spit acid and has its own pseudo-familiar. And it's still technically a CR 1/4 housecat. Make of it what you will




Plus, 8 incarnum-powered housecats will eat your black dragon wyrmling for lunch any time.


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## Alzrius (Nov 15, 2008)

der_kluge said:


> That's right.  Just to prove how ridiculously over-powered dragons are in 3.5, I'm going to compare a baby dragon (wyrmling) to a cat.  A common cat. For purposes of this comparison, I'll use a Black dragon, since their wyrmlings are size tiny.




Because, as we all know, creatures of the same size category should all roughly have the same level of combat ability, despite their Hit Dice, creature type, and stats.



> _The cat is size tiny.
> A wyrmling black dragon is size tiny._




See above. This seems to be the cause of all the contention here.



> _A cat has 2 hit points.
> A wyrmling black dragon, which is the same size as a cat has 30 hit points._




And to think, the cat has only 1/2 of a d8, whereas the black wyrmling has 4d12! Don't even get me started on that Con modifier...man this is just so _*whacked!*_



> _A cat has a 3 strength.
> A wyrmling black dragon has an 11 strength - stronger than a good portion of the population._




Because, again, creatures of the same size should all have the same strength. After all, it's like that for humans, right?



> _A cat has a movement of 30'.
> A wyrmling black dragon moves at 60 ft. - that's right, twice as fast as the fastest cat you've ever seen, can fly at 100 ft., and swims faster than Michael Phelps at 60 ft.  By way of comparison, a measly ol' 7HD Wyvern only flies at a pathetic 60' - but can fly AS FAST as an elder Air Elemental._




Heck with that, I can't believe that the dragon can fly and swim at all! The cat can't do that, so the fact that a dragon wyrmling can is clear and undeniable evidence that dragons are overpowered! We need more flying cats!



> _A cat has claw/claw/bite attack and deals a massive (1d2-4) and (1d3-4) points of damage with those, respectively.
> A wyrmling black dragon also has a claw/claw/bite attack but deals 1d3/1d3/1d4 points of damage. So, to clarify - a cat's claw is 1d2, but a dragon's claw is 1d3. So, a wyrmling black dragon, which is as big as a cat, has *sharper* claws than a cat. Unfathomable._




And that extra 0.5 points of damage is going to seriously @#$% you up!!!



> _A cat can cough up a hair ball.
> A wyrmling black dragon, which is as big as a cat, can shoot a line of acid dealing 2d4 points of acid damage *30 feet*.  Ok, take a look at the room you're in. Place a cat in the corner of the room, and then imagine a line of acid streaming from its mouth traveling 30 feet. Just imagine that. I presume such an action would kill it, because 30' worth of volume of acid would leave anything size tiny a shriveled up dessicated husk once done._




I agree with this; after all, who wouldn't go nuts over how supernatural abilities don't make physical sense in terms of real-world science.

This, right here, is all the proof anyone should need that 3.5 needed to get kicked to the curb - so we could get rid of it's wonky gamist tropes and institute the realistic, measured sanity that is 4E!



> _A cat has an initiative of +2.
> A wyrmling black dragon has an initiative of +0 - you know, despite being a faster swimmer, runner and flyer than just about anything in the world._




Because it's not like, with its measly 4 Hit Dice, that wyrmling dragon couldn't just take Improved Initiative anyway. Stupid wyrmling.



> _As you were._




You tell 'em Curtis. You tell the world.


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## der_kluge (Nov 15, 2008)

Alzrius said:


> This, right here, is all the proof anyone should need that 3.5 needed to get kicked to the curb - so we could get rid of it's wonky gamist tropes and institute the realistic, measured sanity that is 4E!




All right, Alzrius, calm down. Take a deep breath.

First, it's a joke.

Second, I despise 4th edition.  

I'm revising dragons to be more compatible with E6/E8, and they need some serious work in that department.


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## Alzrius (Nov 15, 2008)

der_kluge said:


> All right, Alzrius, calm down. Take a deep breath.




I'm trying, but I'm seriously still recovering from the laughter (which is with you, not at you).



> _First, it's a joke._




I know. I was getting in on it.



> _Second, I despise 4th edition.  _








> _I'm revising dragons to be more compatible with E6/E8, and they need some serious work in that department._




That seems a little needless, I'd think. Either raising their size category and/or their CR should be enough.


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## Dragonwriter (Nov 15, 2008)

I can see this comparison being done just for kicks/laughs, but seriously, this is just a silly thing to do.

A Wyrmling Black, as pointed out earlier, is considered CR 3. A housecat is CR 1/4... Where's the equality? Compare the Wyrmling to an appropriate creature, like an ogre or another CR 3 creature if you want to prove how overpowered dragons are.

EDIT: By the time I posted this... there were only the first two responses... The others were apparently works-in-progress.


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## Corsair (Nov 15, 2008)

And no one seems to be taking issue with the basic premise of comparing a housecat to an imaginary fantasy creature.


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## der_kluge (Nov 15, 2008)

Alzrius said:


> That seems a little needless, I'd think. Either raising their size category and/or their CR should be enough.




Raising their size category?  I assume you mean lowering it.

I'm readjusting everything.  It's not very plausible to be a 19th level spellcaster in a world where the highest level spellcaster is 6th (e6) or 8th (e8).

Also, it kind of destroys my sense of verisimilitude for an ancient dragon to be as large as a building. Dragons have enjoyed a size creep every edition. It's out of control.

I'm just trying to bring them back to reality a bit - make them a bit more feral, and less godlike.  I want a group of 8th level characters to be able to *reasonably* challenge a great wyrm dragon.  So, I'm re-imagining them.


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## Phaezen (Nov 15, 2008)

der_kluge said:


> A cat can cough up a hair ball.
> A wyrmling black dragon, which is as big as a cat, can shoot a line of acid dealing 2d4 points of acid damage *30 feet*.  Ok, take a look at the room you're in. Place a cat in the corner of the room, and then imagine a line of acid streaming from its mouth traveling 30 feet. Just imagine that. I presume such an action would kill it, because 30' worth of volume of acid would leave anything size tiny a shriveled up dessicated husk once done.





You have clearly never seen my cat cough up a hairball 

Phaezen


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## Aus_Snow (Nov 15, 2008)

I prefer my dragons to be mostly just big, flying, fire-breathing lizards. If they do have some weird-ass abilities, it'll be a low number of spell-like abilities, psi-like abilities, supernatural abilities, or ad hoc BS features.

What that has to do with housecats? Nothing, really.  But it has a lot to do with E6, trust me (that's, more or less, my preferred form of 3e.)


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## S'mon (Nov 15, 2008)

I noticed the riciculousness of Wyrmling black dragons when reading 'scourge of the howling horde', where a wyrmling black is the BBEG leader of the 'horde'!  

For me the simplest solution is to simply increase all the dragon sizes until you get something plausible.  Personally I'd make the wyrmling black Medium, ie at least 4' long from snout to base of tail.


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## Stalker0 (Nov 15, 2008)

Corsair said:


> And no one seems to be taking issue with the basic premise of comparing a housecat to an imaginary fantasy creature.




Ah, but how about comparing two fantasy creatures

Wyrmling Dragon vs... Schroedinger's Cat!!


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Nov 15, 2008)

Stalker0 said:


> Ah, but how about comparing two fantasy creatures
> 
> Wyrmling Dragon vs... Schroedinger's Cat!!




Well, as long as we don't open the Monster Manual containing Schroediners Cat, it is as well stronger and weaker as the Dragon! Totally ridiculous!


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## Alzrius (Nov 15, 2008)

der_kluge said:


> Raising their size category?  I assume you mean lowering it.
> 
> I'm readjusting everything.  It's not very plausible to be a 19th level spellcaster in a world where the highest level spellcaster is 6th (e6) or 8th (e8).
> 
> ...




No, I meant raising their size category...for younger dragons.

From what I understand, your idea is that you want to take dragons of every age category and make them all plausible enemies in your E6/E8 game - hence, you're looking for a way to power them down at every age category so they're not overwhelming.

I can understand that idea (particularly if you want wyrmlings to start at CR 1 and increase by 1 at each age category) but that seems like a lot of work for comparatively little reward.

My suggestion would be to take just the first few age categories of a dragon and modify their stats. For example, get rid of a black dragon's last six age categories (everything after "adult"), increase each age category's size by two size categories each (decrease or ignore the ability score changes from this) and change the names for them all. Voila! Your "adult black dragon" is now a "great black wyrm"!


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## der_kluge (Nov 15, 2008)

Alzrius said:


> No, I meant raising their size category...for younger dragons.
> 
> From what I understand, your idea is that you want to take dragons of every age category and make them all plausible enemies in your E6/E8 game - hence, you're looking for a way to power them down at every age category so they're not overwhelming.
> 
> I can understand that idea (particularly if you want wyrmlings to start at CR 1 and increase by 1 at each age category) but that seems like a lot of work for comparatively little reward.




Exactly. But I don't intend to do this just for myself. I'll make it available in some form or another for anyone who enjoys E6/E8 style of play.

I was thinking last night that an "E6 Bible" would be an extremely useful product to have.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Nov 15, 2008)

So if a housecat is cr 1/4 and a wyrmling is CR3, that means a swarm of 12 housecats is also CR3.

I think I'm betting on the cats.


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## greyscale1 (Nov 15, 2008)

7.5/10

Was amused, would be amused again.


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## Remathilis (Nov 15, 2008)

That's right.  I'm going to compare a Monstrous Centipede (Colossal) to the Tarrasque.  

The Tarrasque is size colossal.
A Monstrous Centipede is size colossal.

A Tarrasque has 858 hit points.
A Monstrous Centipede, which is the same size as a Tarrasque has 132 hit points.

A Tarrasque has a 45 strength.
A Monstrous Centipede has an 27 strength - stronger than a good portion of the population.

A Tarrasque has a movement of 20'.
A Monstrous Centipede moves at 40 ft. - that's right, twice as fast as the fastest Tarrasque you've ever seen, can climb at 40 ft.

A Tarrasque has a bite (4d8+17/18–20/×3) and 2 horns (1d10+8) and 2 claws (1d12+8) and tail slap (3d8+8).
A Montrous Centipede also has a bite that does (4d6+12 plus poison) So, to clarify - a Tarrasque bite is 4d8, but a Centipedes bite is 4d6. So, a Tarrasque, which is as big as a Monstrous Centipede, has *sharper* Teeth than a Monstrous Centipede. Unfathomable.

A Monstrous Centipede can poison you.  
A Tarrasque, which is as big as a Monstrous Centipede, can grab you without AoO and swallow you for 2d8+8 points of crushing damage plus 2d8+6 points of acid damage per round from the tarrasque’s digestive juices. Ok, take a look at the room you're in. Place a Monstrous Centipede in the corner of the room, and then imagine it grabbing you and putting it in its mouth from as far as 20 feet. Just imagine that. I presume such an action would be impossible, since a centipedes hands lack opposible thumbs for gripping. 

A Tarrasque has an initiative of +7.
A Monstrous Centipede has an initiative of +1 - you know, despite being a faster runner and climber than just about anything in the world.

As you were.


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## pawsplay (Nov 15, 2008)

Since a house cat has a partial hit die, I think it's probably fair to give a wyrmling a whole hit die. I'm not entirely happy with Str 11, but monsters tend tend to have inflated Str scores across the board anyway, so messing with that might start something that can't be stopped.

I don't know why the D&D design team thought a wyrmling should be a very credible threat in its own right.


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## Starglim (Nov 15, 2008)

der_kluge said:


> Also, it kind of destroys my sense of verisimilitude for an ancient dragon to be as large as a building. Dragons have enjoyed a size creep every edition. It's out of control.
> 
> I'm just trying to bring them back to reality a bit - make them a bit more feral, and less godlike.  I want a group of 8th level characters to be able to *reasonably* challenge a great wyrm dragon.  So, I'm re-imagining them.




Really? Different premises, I suppose. It damages my sense of verisimilitude for an ancient wyrm to be smaller than a suburban house.


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## Delta (Nov 16, 2008)

Alzrius said:


> Because, as we all know, creatures of the same size category should all roughly have the same level of combat ability, despite their Hit Dice, creature type, and stats.




Well, admittedly Skip Williams wrote an article detailing the ranges that every monster type/size should fit into. And if you look at his specification for Dragon sizes (already inflated compared to other types) -- all the Dragons break those rules. So something's definitely amiss.


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