# Barbarian Handbook



## Systole

Inspired as I was by Treantmonk's wizard guide (and more recently, by Stream of the Sky's Witch Handbook), I figured I'd try my hand at a barbarian guide. I would never have thought that this was really necessary, but Ultimate Combat has dumped a bunch of truly subpar options on the table, so I think the newbies out there deserve a warning sign on some of these things.

In terms of classes, barbarians are probably mechanically the simplest. This doesn't make them bad, by any means. I personally consider chopping hordes of goblins into a large pool of chunky, greenish salsa to have a quaint and timeless humor, sort of like the role-playing equivalent of fart jokes. However, if you're really looking to challenge yourself with stealth and sneak attacks and battlefield control, barbarians are not for you.

That said, barbarians offer exceptional role-playing opportunities. You can be the life of your adventuring party. Eventually, your group will need someone to run screaming into a horde of orcs, or to render a dragon flabbergasted by reckless idiocy, or maybe just to kick in a door and smash everything inside into little bitty pieces. THAT'S WHERE YOU SHINE! And outside of combat, you can keep yourself occupied by drinking and punching livestock in the face (in whatever order you'd like), while the rest of the party makes silly Gather Information checks.



*Barbarian Tactics*

Step 1: Charge the enemy.
Step 2: Hit the enemy really hard with the biggest weapon you can find.
Step 3: Repeat steps 1 and 2 until you (a) win or (b) die.

That's all you need to know, really.



*A Note on Rage Powers and Feats*

In your career as a barbarian, you will have to make choices in regards to feats and rage powers. If you used Intelligence as a dump stat, you may find these choices overwhelming to the point of shouting things like, "ME NO UNDERSTAND! ME SMASH PUNY ADVANCED PLAYERS GUIDE!"

Here's a helpful guideline to allow you to select the best feat for your barbarian: *If it lets you smash monsters better, it's good. If it does not help you smash monsters better, it is bad.*  Note (and this is the tricky part) that things like doors and tables do not count as monsters. Paizo has put a lot of tricksy rage powers in here which target furniture. These are not worth taking.

The important concept here is, that besides the smashing monsters and smashing furniture abilities, there are a lot of abilities which let you avoid damage. These are almost as useless as the anti-furniture abilities. A barbarian does not win fights by attrition. He wins fights by pounding the ever-loving crap out of everything as fast as possible. If you want to play a barbarian, that the goal you must aspire to.

Now, there is one single exception to this rule: *Better Will saves are also good.*

Got all that? Fantastic. Let's proceed.


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## Systole

*Races*

Half-Elf: Surprisingly good. You get the human's strength bonus, and the enchantment save bonus makes a happy barbarian. Plus, you can swap out the crappy Skilled racial for the excellent Dual-Minded racial, which gives you a very needed +2 to Will saves. Also, low-light vision and Keen Senses. Yay!

Half-Orc: Strength is excellent, and ferocity is especially good for a barbarian. Darkvision and the alternate favored class bonus of 1 rage are quite good. One the other hand ... half-orc barbarian? Seriously clichè, bro. If you're building a Howler, though, half-orc is the way to go for the +2 Intimidate.

Human: The extra feat is nice, especially if you're doing something complicated, like building a tripper. So is the strength bump. The extra skill point is kind of lost on barbarians. You are a mighty warrior, not a wimpy skill monkey! If you're going Superstitious barbarian, the alternate favored class bonus is stupidly good, easily pushing humans to blue.

Dwarf: No strength bonus, but every thing else lines up pretty well. Also, you can wear medium armor and still move at 30', since for a dwarf, _speed is never modified by armor or encumbrance_. Alternate favored class of 1 rage is decent. A solid second choice. 

Elf: Honestly, less bad than you might think. Still, not great. Elves get a Constitution penalty, which means you're going to have fewer HP than you might want, and 1 less round of rage. At lower levels, the difference between 6 rounds and 7 is a big deal. At higher levels, the difference between, say 15 and 16 rounds of rage is less of an issue. Still, there's nothing optimal here, and the alternate favored class bonus is very, very bad.

Halfling & Gnome: While the idea of a crazy knee-biting barbarian is pretty damn funny, the penalties to strength and movement really kill the effectiveness here.



*Archetypes That Don't Completely Suck*


Brutal Pugilist - I just don't love this, but if you have your heart set on playing a boxer, it's not completely terrible. Just mostly terrible. Really, just buy a cestus or spiked gauntlet.
Elemental Kin - The bad news is that the ability kind of sucks. The good news is that it sucks less than Trap Sense. If you still have Trap Sense, you might as well pick up this archetype.
Invulnerable Rager - DR in exchange for a losing some AC. Your AC sucks anyway. This is a good pick.
Mounted Fury - If you're going mounted, Blue. Otherwise, no.
Savage Barbarian - The armor bonus is good. The loss of DR is not. Not a good pick overall.
Scarred Rager - The things you give up are some very useful abilities. If you're committed to a Howling barbarian, this might be worth it, but not really, in my opinion.
Totem Warrior - By totem type.
Urban Barbarian - A dip class to make TWF finesse builds less crappy. An interesting idea, but I don't think you'd ever take this to 20th level.




*Archetypes That Completely Suck*

Armored Hulk - No. This is bad. If you want to have a decent AC, play a fighter. Don't play a class whose core mechanic reduces your AC.
Breaker - An archetype that targets things that don't fight back? Epic facepalm.
Drunken Brute - Extra rage? Yeah, but you're using a move action. Which means less moving, and no full attack actions. As Admiral Ackbar once said, "It's a trap!"
Hurler - No. Fast Movement is your friend. You do not give it up for a crappy range bonus on thrown stuff.
Sea Reaver - This is clearly an archetype for pirate NPCs. It is not for PCs.
Superstitious - Giving up DR for a Perception bonus? No.
Titan Mauler - An awful, awful archetype. Let me sum this up: You can use a giant's dagger as if it were a two-handed sword without penalty. You know what's a better idea? BUYING A FRICKIN' TWO-HANDED SWORD. This would be a good ability if it let you wield oversize (i.e. larger than traditionally two-handed) weapons. But it doesn't. Screw you, Paizo.
True Primitive - An archetype for caveman NPCs. Do not take this.
Wild Rager - If you take a Wild Rager, expect your party to roll you off a cliff while you sleep. This is the single worst archetype in the history of archetypes. I am not exaggerating.


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## Systole

*The Must-Haves*

Clear Mind (Ex) - Will saves are the ones you're most likely to fail, and they're the ones that hurt most to fail. This ability is good enough for me to put it in the must-have category, even after all the bad things I said about defensive rage powers.
Come and Get Me (Ex) - Absolutely overpowered. Take this at level 12.
Fearless Rage (Ex) - Those conditions suck and target Will. This gets blue for the same reason that Clear Mind does. 
Knockdown (Ex) - This is just excellent. Charge 'em, knock 'em down, smack 'em when they get up. For extra barbarian-y goodness, toss in a Strength Surge.
Reckless Abandon (Ex) - This is a perfect, iconic rage power. Every barbarian should have this.
Strength Surge (Ex) - By itself, this is a great power for that extra oomph when you need it. Coupled with Knockdown or Knockback, it is excellent.
Superstition (Ex) - The consensus is that this is a blue. Myself ... I kind of like having my pet wizard being able to cast on me during combat, but I'll submit to the majority vote.
Unexpected Strike (Ex) - Oh, yes. Your barbarian should be built around smacking people in the face. This lets him smack people in the face more. Get this.




*The Pretty Good*

Animal Fury (Ex) - Decent, and a prereq for a lot of good stuff.
Auspicious Mark (Su) - I may have overrated this, but I'm a big fan of retroactive luck.
Crippling Blow (Ex) - Scales pretty well and helps put the hurt on big nasties.
Disruptive - Disruptive gets weaker at high levels. Still, it's not terrible, and the rest of the tree helps out here.
Eater of Magic (Su) - Definitely tasty. GET IT? TASTY?
Hurling Charge (Ex) - Free attack during a charge. Excellent. Sadly, the prereq is subpar.
Increased Damage Reduction (Ex) - Good, but you're generally better off taking offensive powers than defensive powers.
Quick Reflexes (Ex) - Extra AoOs are good. If you dumped Dexterity or there's a tripper in the party, could be a blue.
Sharpened Accuracy (Ex) - This is a good power, assuming you got Surprise Accuracy. Which you shouldn't have.
Spell Sunder (Su) - Very good. Lets you peel away the defenses of magic baddies.
Spellbreaker - If you're going this route, decent.
Sprint (Ex) - A x3 charge is a great way to close in that first round. This is better than Swift Foot, because this gives you a lot extra during those times when you really need it, rather than a little extra which you don't need most of the time.




*The Not So Great*

Beastial Leaper (Ex) - It's a copy of Spring Attack, which isn't that great anyway. Plus, you shouldn't have wasted o rage power on the terrible prerequisite.
Bleeding Blow (Ex) - It's extra damage, but you should be trying to kill things outright, not letting them bleed out slowly.
Elemental Rage & Greater Elemental Rage (Su) - A little bit of energy damage is really not useful at this level. It isn't multiplied on crits, and a lot of stuff is going to be resistant to whatever type you choose.
Elemental Rage, Lesser (Su) - If you're TWF, maybe this is green. If you're wielding a BFS, it's just not worth the investment.
Good for What Ails You (Ex) - Depends on how tough the status effects you run into are. Generally speaking, barbarians should avoid defensive rage powers.
Internal Fortitude (Ex) - These conditions suck. However, usually they're Fortitude saves, so you shouldn't be failing them too often.
Knockback (Ex) - I'm not a fan of Bull Rushes, but free CMs are fun.
Liquid Courage (Ex) - Not terrible, but you should be getting morale buffs from your cleric.
Mighty Swing (Ex) - By the time you get this, you should be pretty much auto-confirming anyway. It's not that special.
Powerful Blow (Ex) - Great idea, but once per rage sucks.
Renewed Life (Ex) - Negative levels suck, but if you tend to get a lot of them, your cleric is doing something wrong.
Renewed Vitality (Ex) - Ability damage is more common and less avoidable than negative levels. This could almost make it a green, except I wouldn't want to delude anyone into taking Renewed Vigor.
Scent (Ex) - This rates a solid "Meh."
Sunder Enchantment (Su) - Why are you sundering? Just smack the guy in the face.
Surprise Accuracy (Ex) - It's once per rage, it's just an attack bonus, and there's a good chance you have a morale bonus up that this won't stack with.
Swift Foot (Ex) - Not really worth a rage power.
Witch Hunter (Ex) - Not terrible. Not great.




*The Flat-Out Terrible*

Beastial Climber/Swimmer(Ex) - You have access to better magic than this now. Also, these abilities would be laughable even if you didn't.
Boasting Taunt (Ex) - Goes to green if you're the group's tank. Please don't be the group's tank.
Body Bludgeon (Ex) - Okay, role-playing-wise, I admit it's kind of funny. Mechanically, it's stupid.
Brawler & Greater Brawler - You're not a monk. If you want to punch stuff, put on a cestus or a spiked gauntlet.
Deadly Accuracy (Ex) - So let me get this straight: If you manage to crit on that one special round per rage when you use an underpowered ability, the beastie that you would have killed with a single crit is extra dead. Wow.
Energy Absorption (Su) - So many better things to spend rage powers on.
Energy Eruption (Su) - Did you know that if something is hitting you with an energy type at level 16, there's a better than average chance it's immune to the energy type it's using? Yeah.
Energy Resistance, Greater (Ex) - Not great.
Ground Breaker & Greater Ground Breaker (Ex) - No. Just no. The save doesn't scale. Skip this. Skip this hard.
Guarded Life & Greater Guarded Life (Ex) - Your Fortitude save is already through the roof. Skip.
Guarded Stance (Ex) - You're a barbarian. You hit things. This ability does not help you hit things. If you are the party tank, maybe a green. Please tell me you are not the party tank, though.
Hurling & Greater Hurling (Ex) - Not worth it.
Hurling, Lesser (Ex) - Funny, but not worth. However, does lead in to Hurling Charge, which is decent.
Lethal Accuracy (Ex) - See Deadly Accuracy.
Low-Light Vision (Ex) - Low-light vision is nice, but if you need it, you probably need it when you're out of rage too.
Night Vision (Ex) - Darkvision is nice, but if you need it, you probably need it when you're out of rage too.
Overbearing Advance& Overbearing Onslaught (Ex) - Overrun is generally a pretty bad CM. You want to smack things in the face, not run past them.
Perfect Clarity (Ex) - Only worth it if your GM is sending hordes of rampaging gnome illusionists at you. I've only had that happen once.
Primal Scent (Ex) - Not worth it.
Raging Climber/Leaper/Swimmer (Ex) - All of these are laughably bad.
Reflexive Dodge (Ex) - Rolling Dodge is bad. But spending a rage power on Reflex saves? Terrible. Reflex saves are the saves that hurt the least.
Renewed Vigor & Regenerative Vigor (Ex) - Terrible. You're not a healer. That guy in the dress standing behind you is the healer. Or possibly the wizard. Assuming he is the healer, you should let him do his job while you smack things in the face. You'll both be happier that way.
Rolling Dodge (Ex) - You know what you do to archers? You run up and smack them in the face. Spending a rage power to avoid projectiles is so not worth it.
Smasher (Ex) - Wha ... what? A rage power to help you smite defenseless objects? Are you kidding me, Paizo? Are you $#%&ing kidding me?!? YES ... YESSSSS! I SHALL BE THE KING OF SMASHING FURNITURE AND OTHER INANIMATE OBJECTS! COFFEE TABLES THE WORLD OVER SHALL TREMBLE AT THE MENTION OF MY NAME!
Staggering Drunk (Ex) - Any rage power that includes "Gain AC" is worthless.



*The Conditionally Okay But Mostly Not Good*

Energy Resistance (Ex) - This can be green if you fight the same type of energy all the time. Generally speaking, you're better off with rage powers that let you hit harder.
Flesh Wound (Ex) - If you're an Invulnerable Rager and/or have mastered rage hopping (see below), this is green, possibly even blue. Otherwise, I can't really rate this above orange, and I really think it's fairly red.
Ghost Rager (Su) - You should have a magic weapon by level 6. If your GM is stiffing you on loot, or you're in an campaign where you fight undead 80% of the time, maybe this gets an orange or green. If you're going the human/Superstitious route, this bumps your Touch AC to ridiculous levels, and might rate as high as blue.
Inspire Ferocity (Ex) - Okay, this is a toughie because it's super situational. Is your group made of melee? Maybe it's worth it. Generally not, though.
Intimidating Glare (Ex) - Didn't you dump Charisma? If you're building a Howler barbarian, this is a blue. Otherwise, red.
Moment of Clarity (Ex) - It's a must-have if you're going Rage Prophet, which you shouldn't, because Rage Prophet is a terrible class. Otherwise, this is very deeply red.
No Escape (Ex) - How often do foes use the withdraw action? I've only seen it once, I think. If your GM is a maneuver monkey, then maybe this is green.
Roaring Drunk (Ex) - Not great unless you're going for a Terrifying Howl build (in which case it's green) or you run into lots of stuff that causes fear (in which case it's orange).
Roused Anger (Ex) - This depends on whether your GM is sneaky. If your fights are straightforward, this is red. If your GM likes to play gotcha, this might go as high as green, but probably not.
Terrifying Howl (Ex) - You really have to build to this to make it work. If you're building a Howling barbarian, then it's blue. Otherwise, it's red.


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## Systole

*Totems*​


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## Systole

*Feats*​


*Your First Level Feat*

Power Attack: I can’t rate this higher than blue, but … it’s higher than blue. It's ultra-blue. There is no legit barbarian build that doesn’t take this as its 1st level feat.



*The Must-Haves*

Combat Reflexes: This drops a bit if you’re not with someone who can feed you AoOs or if you dump-statted Dex. It’s still quite good regardless.
Furious Focus: Negates the Power Attack penalty.
Improved Initiative: Going first. Enough said.
Improved Trip, Greater Trip, Felling Smash: If you’re feeling like smashing things in the face is no longer good enough, then tripping is adds a bit of fun.
Iron Will: Failing Will saves is the worst thing ever.
Step-Up: You’re in the caster’s/archer’s face, right? When they 5-foot step, follow them and mess them up.



*The Pretty Good*

Dodge: If you have a spare feat, this is not a bad grab. Otherwise, stick to smash-the-enemy-in-the-face feats.
Nimble Moves: Few things are as annoying as a small shrubbery in the way of a perfectly good charge. This allows you to hurdle said shrubbery. In your face, pesky plant life! 
Toughness: You’ve already got d12 for HP. On the other hand, you’re getting hit a lot. Kind of a toss-up.



*The Not So Great*

Acrobatic Steps: If you need to clear 20’ a round of difficult terrain, you should probably have Fly cast on you. Situationally useful, yes … but there are better choices for a feat.
Blind-fight: Not utterly terrible, but there are better choices.
Cleave: Cleave is a bad feat. It’s great at maybe first and second level when you’re fighting hordes of goblins, but it’s a waste by the time you hit 5th. If you’re a Fighter and can swap stuff around, this is a good early feat. Sadly, if you’re a barbarian, all this does is make you a superstar at 3rd level.
Drunken Brawler: Useful with drinking archetypes. Otherwise, no.
Endurance: If you’re a medium armor dwarf barbarian, this is a little better. Otherwise, you’re in light or no armor and this isn’t worth it.
Fleet: You’ve got a great move already. This is probably not helpful.
Improved Critical: Okay, if you’re a half-orc with a falchion, this is better than orange. But otherwise, you’re better to go for straight damage than relying on crits.
Hammer the Gap: Not enough to be worth a feat.
Lunge: Situationally useful.
Mobility: It’s rare you’ll need to tumble except when you go after stuff with reach. Even then, tumbling is still so terrible as to be not worth it. 
Quick Draw: Nah. You’re not switching weapons. You’re pulling the BFS and hitting as much as possible with it. Occasionally, this is worth it during surprise rounds. Otherwise, no. If you’re TWF, green/blue.
Spring Attack: A pretty bad feat unless you’re playing with reach weapons.
Stand Still: Too situational.
Weapon Focus: More useful if you’re TWF. If you’re BFS, this is a minor addition to you damage output.



*The Flat-Out Terrible*

Following Step: Step Up is great. Following Step is overkill.
Great Fortitude & Lightning Reflexes: You’ve got a great Fortitude save already, and Reflex saves are usually just about HP. Neither of these is worth taking.
Improved Unarmed Strike etc.: You’re not a monk. If you feel a burning need to punch stuff, wear protection. By which I mean, a cestus.
Monkey Lunge: Lunge is not bad, but this is an AC feat. Skip it.
Tantrum: So you took a gnome barbarian … and now you have a choice of this terrible feat. Don’t do it.
Wind Stance: Yeah, you move a lot, but this is an AC feat. Skip it.



*The Conditionally Okay But Mostly Not Good*

Combat Expertise: Useful if you’re going to play with Improved Trip. Otherwise, what the heck do you care about AC? 
Intimidating Prowess: For Howler barbarians. 
Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge, Trample: For Mounted Fury barbarians.
Vital Strike: I am staying out of the Vital Strike argument. If you’re thinking about it, do your own research.


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## Systole

Reserved #2.


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## Systole

Reserved #3.  Should be enough.


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## StreamOfTheSky

Nice, I'll try to read it over once my game's over tonight.

Just make sure you cover the art of "Rage Hopping" -- getting immunity to fatigue and then going into a new rage each round to make 1/rage powers into 1/round powers.  Most still suck, but that mechanic is probably the main reason to not just play a Fighter, IMO.

Barbarian issues to me usually boil down to:
1) The class is so narrow in what you can do.  Maybe one is a 2H power attacker, another is a 2H power attacker that scares people by yelling alot.  Another is a 2H power attacker that's even tougher than a normal barb... You see where I'm going here.  Gets a little bland.

2) There doesn't seem to be a great reason to stay in the class past level 12 (the level you can get Come and Get Me, the best rage power evar!).  The 20th level capstone uber sucks, Tireless Rage can be had by ECL 9 w/ a 1 level Oracle dip...  Just not much to offer at the higher levels.


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## Starbuck_II

Systole said:


> *Archetypes That Completely Suck*
> 
> Armored Hulk - No. This is bad. If you want to wear armor, play a fighter. Don't play a class whose core mechanic reduces your armor class.
> Titan Mauler - An awful, awful archetype. Let me sum this up: You can use a giant's dagger as if it were a two-handed sword without penalty. You know what's a better idea? BUYING A FRICKIN' TWO-HANDED SWORD. This would be a good ability if it let you wield oversize (i.e. larger than traditionally two-handed) weapons. But it doesn't. Screw you, Paizo.



I disagree here.

Armored Hulk: makes you faster in med/heavy armor than a normal Barbarian in Med Armor(Barbarian can't use Fast Movement in Heavy and only 30 feet in Med, Armored Hulk ends up 35 ft in Med/Heavy armor). And you don't lose any AC (are you talking about Dex mod?).
Yes, a Barb in Light armor is 5 ft faster than a Armored Hulk in Med/Heavy.

Titan Mauler: Ranged gun wielding Barbarians can use Gigantic guns with the ability without a hit penalty, but otherwise no one should use this,. Although Evade Reach ability is nifty.

You didn't mention awsome totems:
Beast Totems improves your base natural armor in rage (still able to be improved by Barkskin/Amulet of NA). Plus, you have a bite attack as a 6th attack when full attack (rarely hits but doesn't hurt your to hit rate).  And Pounce did I mention pounce bcause you can charge and full attk.
Dragon Totem improves your DR in Rage (besides resistance to 1 energy isn't bad to have). The wings are iffy at best but the DR rocks.

Feats:
Tiger Style/Tiger Pounce are pretty good. They let you negate hit penalty for all attacks (not just 1st) by reducing AC for a round.
Dipping Monk for Tiger Pounce is a better idea (Master of Many Styles) though.
Extra Rage Power is a godsend. More Rage powers. Take it a few times is good.


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## Systole

Armored Hulk: Rage reduces your AC.  If you want to have a decent AC, don't play a barbarian.

Titan Mauler: I will think about this ... although I can't imagine why you'd take a clearly Strength-based class and use a firearm.

I haven't got to totems yet.  The guide is still a work in progress.

You can't be a monk/barbarian.  Barbarians can't be lawful.  Monks can't be non-lawful.

Extra Rage Power is ... interesting.  I did miss grading that, and I'll put it in tomorrow.  Although I'm not sure I'd call it a godsend.  Feats are generally more powerful than rage powers, so I'd usually rather have the feat.


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## StreamOfTheSky

Starbuck_II said:


> Tiger Style/Tiger Pounce are pretty good. They let you negate hit penalty for all attacks (not just 1st) by reducing AC for a round.
> Dipping Monk for Tiger Pounce is a better idea (Master of Many Styles) though.




Kinda hard to dip a lawful only class as a Barbarian. 
Unarmed Fighter archetype is certainly an option, though.


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## StreamOfTheSky

Systole said:


> Flesh Wound (Ex) - ...why?




Ok, see, I assume a barbarian is Rage Hopping by mid-levels, maybe you don't and that's affecting your ratings.  But i have to completely disagree here.  Even without hopping, dropping damage from an attack by half once per combat is a decent ability.  But with hopping?  Holy Crap!  Once every single round you can ignore half the damage from an attack!  And the other half becomes non-lethal.  Which the Invulnerable Rager archetype gives double DR against!  So at Barbarian 10, when you pick up this ability, your Invulnerable Rager is dropping the damage from any one effect by half once per round and having DR 10 against whatever nonlethal damage remains.  Flesh Wound is IMO only behind Come and Get Me in terms of best Rage Powers.

Some other notes on rage powers:

I like Spirit Totem.  Since the extra attack isn't being made by you, you get some leeway and can apply it at the start, end, or middle of your attack routine, however you see fit.  You also can get it when not full attacking.  I found that to be handy....

Knockdown is once/rage.  Not an issue if hopping, but if you aren't, it uber sucks.

Superstitious is IMO an all or nothing path.  Either you embrace it completely, use the human favored class option, get Ghost Rager, and be nearly untouchable by magic... Or you avoid it completely.  Going half-assed just means mediocre benefits with potentially very annoying drawbacks.  On that note...

Ghost Rager is awesome is going all-out.  Your touch AC can get very obscene.

Intimidating Glare and Terrifying Howl are very good if you're going that route.  I know you said as much, but I think you should rate the rage powers assuming builds that would benefit from them are the ones taking said powers.  Barbarian is a very good intimidation build, especially if Cornugon Smash feat is available.


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## Systole

I'll reread Flesh Wound.  I feel like I didn't read it right the first time.  Same with Ghost Rager.

Will take your advice into consideration when I get around to totem powers.  I wanted to separate them out.

Personally, I'm a fan of Knockdown, even at 1/combat.  There's usually one BBEG per fight that really needs a trip, and the barbarian is usually the one who charged into his face.  I'll consider downgrading to green, but you would have to work real hard to convince me to put it lower than that.

I'll put in rage-hopping as an addendum.  I don't generally assume rage-hopping, because I feel the tactic is a bit underhanded.  I'm only familiar with getting into it through Lame Oracle.  Is there another way?


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## StreamOfTheSky

Lame Oracle is the easiest.  Horizon Walker requires a 3 level deviation from Barb and a worthless feat, but doesn't cost you any BAB and also makes you immune to exhaustion.  Both gain fatigue immunity at ECL 9.  Of course, you might be tempted to dip Unbreakable Fighter 1 if going the Horizon Walker route.
The simplest but least useful method is to...just wait for Barbarian 17.  Yup, even a core only Barbarian by RAW gets to eventually engage in this tactic, far from some sort of sneaky splat-abusing trick.

And I disagree it's underhanded.  It would be if the 1/rage powers were really strong.  But as you can see, they're really really not.  I wouldn't bother ever taking any except Flesh Wound if it weren't for hopping.


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## Starbuck_II

Systole said:


> You can't be a monk/barbarian. Barbarians can't be lawful. Monks can't be non-lawful.




Yeah, you totally can. Parthfinder allows you to change alignments. Who cares if you are an ex-Monk, you lose nothing.

Start Monk (go Non-lawful), go Barbarian (party)
Obviously a Str based Monk when you are a level 1 Monk. You can go 2 for evasion if that is your thing though. 
If game starts at 3rd level even better: Ex-Monk 2/Barbarian 1 is all kinds of awesome.

Simple ways to stop being lawful: forget this mediating crap, stop keeping your word, be dishonorable, etc. 
You do have find out what lawful is to your DM (this will vary), but the game allows you to change alignments.


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## Systole

StreamOfTheSky said:


> Ok, see, I assume a barbarian is Rage Hopping by mid-levels, maybe you don't and that's affecting your ratings. But i have to completely disagree here. Even without hopping, dropping damage from an attack by half once per combat is a decent ability. But with hopping? Holy Crap! Once every single round you can ignore half the damage from an attack! And the other half becomes non-lethal. Which the Invulnerable Rager archetype gives double DR against! So at Barbarian 10, when you pick up this ability, your Invulnerable Rager is dropping the damage from any one effect by half once per round and having DR 10 against whatever nonlethal damage remains. Flesh Wound is IMO only behind Come and Get Me in terms of best Rage Powers.




I'm still not loving Flesh Wound.  I admit it's better than red (especially with Invulnerable Rager/rage hopping), but you're still going to be eating the big attacks that you can't make Fort saves against (40+ damage kind of stuff).  The way I see it, you're beating the small attacks that don't really matter, but it doesn't help you much when the $#!% hits the fan.  I'll move it to grey and puts some caveats down.

Sorry if I forgot to mention about Tireless Rage at level 17.  I did know that.  I didn't know about Horizon Walker, though.


----------



## StreamOfTheSky

It can't negate big hits, no, but you should be pumping your fort save crazy high, enough to near guarantee moderate hits can be resisted.  So you use it on the medium impacts, and reduce say...20 damage per round on average, between the halving and DR = barbarian level from Invulnerable Rager.  Since your AC is garbage, you're probably getting hit every round, so you can use this.

Say the fight lasts 3 rounds.  You just shrugged off 60 damage (and a bunch more became nonlethal and will freely get healed along with a corresponding amount of lethal damage when the CLW wand goes 'round).  I...think that's pretty darn good.  The longer the fight goes, the better it is.  Barbarians usually suffer in the realm of staying power, so it's nice for that, too.


Also, I like the deep blue sky color you switched to.  Regular blue is painfully hard to read on this forum, I was thinking of switching to a new shade for my own guide, might use that, it looks very nice against the black background.


----------



## Gorgoroth

*more ragey goodness*

Hi all, so we just started playing a new campaign and I'm playing an invulnerable rager barb. We just turned level 2, and I took superstitious which has already helped a ton. We have an Oracle of Life who life linked with me before I was raging and we believe the ability still works. This combined with DR 1 has helped a lot.

Question to the forum:

Exhausted state replaces Fatigued, right? Or does it add on top of it? In the wording of Roused Anger rage power, it says you can enter a rage even when fatigued but when you leave you are exhausted instead. If you're immune to exaustion, one level of Horizon Walker / desert plus Roused anger should get you rage hopping by level 6, correct?

I'm a little fuzzy on why anyone would even bother with any of this stuff if Allnight herb works. Does it? Or did they clarify it doesn't allow a barbarian to circumvent the fatigued condition, but just its effects.


----------



## StreamOfTheSky

Gorgoroth said:


> Hi all, so we just started playing a new campaign and I'm playing an invulnerable rager barb. We just turned level 2, and I took superstitious which has already helped a ton. We have an Oracle of Life who life linked with me before I was raging and we believe the ability still works. This combined with DR 1 has helped a lot.




You don't have to save against effects that were already affecting you before you entered your rage, no.  Only new spells cast on you.



Gorgoroth said:


> Exhausted state replaces Fatigued, right? Or does it add on top of it?




I guess you could say it "replaces."  It's a higher level of fatigue, basically.  You usually hit fatigued before reaching exhausted, and normally have to go back to fatigued from exhausted before you can get to "no status ailment".



Gorgoroth said:


> In the wording of Roused Anger rage power, it says you can enter a rage even when fatigued but when you leave you are exhausted instead. If you're immune to exaustion, one level of Horizon Walker / desert plus Roused anger should get you rage hopping by level 6, correct?




Well, for starters, HW requires 6 geography ranks, you you can even _enter_ it until level 7...

Yes, it looks like Roused anger + HW 1 will let you rage hop.  You will still be fatigued (but that will be suppressed while actually raging), and each time you jump out, Roused Anger will make you exhausted for a stupidly long time, then Terrain Mastery (Desert) kicks in and turns the exhaustion into fatigue, which Roused Anger then allows you to enter rage despite having...and the cycle repeats from there.
I really wouldn't do that unless you're sure being able to rage hop 2 levels earlier than you could otherwise is so important (like...game will end before you reach ECL 9, or will end shortly after that point).  Roused Anger is a horrible rage power that becomes completely obsolete once you get fatigue immunity or pick up tireless rage, before then you're looking at easily close to an hour of exhaustion (fatigue w/ HW) after the fight, which sucks.



Gorgoroth said:


> I'm a little fuzzy on why anyone would even bother with any of this stuff if Allnight herb works. Does it? Or did they clarify it doesn't allow a barbarian to circumvent the fatigued condition, but just its effects.




I have no idea what allnight herb is?
If you want another way to rage hop early, I recently noticed this gem on the 1st level Bard spell list (ie, 50 gp as a potion!): Invigorate - Pathfinder_OGC


----------



## Qik

Kind of late to the party, but props, Sys; kind of fun to see Daylily as reflected through this prism.


----------



## DDogwood

Re: Monk/Barbarian - it's easy with the Martial Artist archetype from UC, which removes the alignment requirement from the Monk. Coincidentally, it also grants immunity to fatigue at level 5, so it works nicely with Barbarian. 

Re: Titan Mauler - this archetype is less horrible for a small Barbarian, like a Gnome or Halfling. Far from optimal, obviously, but if you really want to play a joke race/class combo this makes it significantly less terrible.


----------



## Gorgoroth

*linky*

Allnight Herb is described here. It's basically 8 hours worth of rage hopping for 75gp (with some negatives). I can take care of my exhaustion from Heart of the Fields.

The dm I am playing with is quite savvy to power gamer stuff and I want to have as many ways as possible to rage hop, possibly mixing and matching some, such as the being a relapsed drug addict on Allnight (when it's available), and when it isn't, settle for quaffing Invigorate potions. Heck, with Roused Anger and 1 level of archaologist bard, I could probably get hopping by level 3, without any potions necessary.

Now while Rousing Anger would be wasted at level 17 (I doubt we will get that far...but who knows), but I think a single rage power, when I get a new one every two levels and can grab more with feats, is a better deal than losing 3 or 4 levels getting Horizon Walker / Desert, which is a dubious prospect considering there are no deserts to speak of in our geographical viscinity. Then again, rage hopping is only good once you can get a bunch of good rage powers that are 1/rage.

As a level 2 barbarian + 1 bard, I could cast Invigorate on myself twice per day and it should last long enough. I wouldn't actually be able to do anything with it, so I'll probably wait till level 5 so I have 4 rage powers total : Superstition, Roused Anger, + 2 others that grant powers. So I only really need to hop probably once per combat, if the other two rage powers are 1/rage style. The 1 level of bard would be great for the +2 to reflex and will saves, too, which this guide recommends, despite the loss of BAB. 

We have a lame oracle in our group already  Another option to rage hop in a non-DM-dependent on allowing build options that doesn't fit our campaign (or Allnight which will not be available all the time). Another thing I was thinking of is a one level dip into cleric for travel domain and restoration subdomain, which has a nifty power to get rid of your fatigued condition. It doesn't state what type of action it is, so I assume it's a free action. (though that's debatable too, a lot of similar cleric domain powers are standard actions). 

I love the extra 10 speed too. A little bit of healing after the fight is always useful as well. I think being able to hop 4 times a day could be enough at early levels. (like by 3rd), when I could have two rage powers.

It would be good to get some clarification if the Restoration domain Restorative Touch (Su) power is indeed a free or a standard action. Separatist archetype would allow both those useful domains, but I wonder what better domains there may be than Travel for a barbarian. (always on 10 speed...love it)


----------



## StreamOfTheSky

Mmmm...chalky paste...sounds yummy.  I guess that would do the trick, though the skill penalty is pretty hefty.

HW is a 3 level dip for rage hopping, you get Terrain Dominance (desert) at 3.  So ECL 9, exact same level Lame Oracle 1 would kick in (which makes HW the inferior path, IMO).

In 3E at least, a Su is a standard action unless said otherwise.  So I'm pretty sure Restorative Touch is a standard.  Still a good domain power.

Other domains: Tactics (War) subdomain lets you or an ally roll twice for initiative and take the higher roll 3 + wis times per day....  I dunno, Travel's pretty hard to top.

Anyway...Allnight herbs, Invigorate potions, and yeah I guess even Roused Anger are all ways to hop at low levels.  But like you said, it's going to take a few levels to get a bunch of solid 1/rage powers anyway.  And while Cleric 1 or Bard 1 and Martial Artist Monk 5 and probably some other things will facillitate rage hopping...ultimately they're all inferior to just dipping Oracle at 9...  I'd just go barb 8, pick up some potions and herbs along the way whenever you can and horde them (how long can the herb last before going bad?), and just wait for the oracle dip.  Much better plan in the long run.  And if you're not playing past the early levels, even in the short run...there aren't many good low level 1/rage powers anyway, I'd probably just not bother with rage hopping in that sort of game.


----------



## StreamOfTheSky

On topic of the guide itself, I want to say something positive about the Wild Rager, which aside from being one of the dumbest designed things ever, is as the OP says, an awful archetype for a Barbarian:

It can be amazing for someone just dipping Barbarian!  Everything that makes it idiotic to a full Barb works to the favor of a dipper.  The DC is based on barb level and cha modifier.  With only 1 or 2 levels and a negative charisma score, this can easily be like a DC 8-9 will save.  In other words, you only fail on a 1 (but as with all saves, you can purposely fail).  This means you can use it strategically in situations where confused would just mean "pound my enemies into paste" anyway for some free rounds of rage, then will save out of it before it actually screws you over.  That's a great way to massively extend your puny 4 + con mod rounds of rage as a dipper!


----------



## Gorgoroth

*how so?*

"ultimately they're all inferior to just dipping Oracle at 9"

Could you explain to me the finer points of how this works? I thought you have to grab 6 levels of Lame Oracle for it to work.

tradeoff as I see it:
Lame Oracle :
-1 Bab
-1 barb level
-10 Speed
-hops at level 9
Horizon Walker:
-1 feat
-6 skill points
-1 barb level
-no spells or funky oracle benefits
-1 rage power, but hops at level 7

Ok let's assume the feat and the loss of Bab is a wash (grab weapon focus)
The loss of one useful rage power is also nearly equivalent to a feat (esp if you plan on taking feats to grant more rage powers to begin with).

Ultimately it comes down to the speed issue, which means with a one level lame oracle, perhaps grabbing heavy armor prof is a good deal after all. you'll be the same speed as a fighter with a few armor spec benefits.

I'd rather use give up one rage power (Roused Anger) and dip one level into horizon walker at ecl 7 (ok, wasting one feat for Endurance, and 6 skill points), to keep my 10 speed and full Bab get hopping 2 levels earlier. hmm, it is tricky though. 

Basically, I just don't want to be a Lame Oracle, although it would be incredibly easy story wise to be cursed by the same curse that affected my teammate, over months of adventuring together. arrrrgh! going into a nerd-rage thinking about which one I prefer : haha.


----------



## StreamOfTheSky

Your effective Oracle level for curse benefits adds half of your non-Oracle levels (cause otherwise holy crap would a small oracle dip suck!).  So a Barb 8 / Oracle 1 counts as a level 5 Oracle for his curse (8/2 +1).

And if speed is an issue and you had no particular preferences for a mystery, you can just take Metal and grab the +10 ft speed revelation it offers to counteract your curse.

And again, you're basically going to spend most of your time not in rage fatigued with the Roused Anger trick, which IMO is a pretty sucky drawback.


----------



## Systole

I really appreciate all the discussion that's been going on in here.  I may have the time to update some things this weekend.  Been very busy.


----------



## Gorgoroth

*ah*

ok, I see now. Thanks for explaining the rules bit about the Lame Oracle, and I agree, it's probably the right thing to do. (besides crush my enemies and hear the lamentations of their women). The Metal option is wizard! to keep my speed. yeah yeah.

Are there any full plates that let you keep your 40 speed as a barbarian while still raging and everything? Or is there a limit on what rages you can pull in heavy armor. I'm a bit fuzzy on the movement rules in pathfinder (I came from 4e before, and it's been many years since I played any d20 systems)

Couple more questions to the forums:

As an invulnerable rager archetype, it is possible to "multi-class" into another archetype, if I understand it correctly. What is a complimentary archetype? as far as I can tell, Totem Warrior, Urban Barbarian, Hurler, Drunken Brute, Sea Reaver, True Primitive and Urban Barbarian seem to the be only ones which wouldn't conflict in terms of having the class features swapped out. What Totem Warrior options would fit well? I like the idea of getting "Pounce" so I can charge and full attack, but the animal totem powers are kind of, blah, to me. Pounce benefits TWF builds more, so at level 10 or so I'm considering grabbing a double ax and twf feat. (my dex is 16). I like the idea of learning to multi weapon as Conan did in some of the movies, as he got to be better with weapons generally. It would also depend on what magic weapons we find, for instance if I get my hands on one of those bastard swords that counts as a light weapon, bam, dual wield bastard swords for sure.

I took improved sunder, but I haven't used it once yet so I'm considering asking my DM to change it to Improve Trip or something else. Maybe Dodge? Or toughness. Our oracle tells me having more HP benefits our life link more (not sure why, I'm a bit fuzzy on that too). But the extra 1 AC from Dodge could some in handy, even with high DR from invulnerable rager. My plan is to wear full plate eventually, be more tanky. If we ever make it to level 16, maybe grab a second level of Lame Oracle to get my speed back up to 40. This is because it doesn't seem to make any sense to have an odd number of barbarian levels.


----------



## StreamOfTheSky

Barb Fast Movement requires medium or lighter armor, so any mithral full plate would work.  But you'd need heavy armor proficiency (feat or multiclass with Fighter, Cavalier, or Paladin) in order to not take the massive armor check penalty on your attack roll.  In PF, mithral makes armor lighter, but you still need to be proficient with its original weight category.

The only Totems I like are Spirit and Animal.  Latter is nice for pounce at 10 and the natural armor is decent, too.  The lesser one for claws is pretty sucky, though.  Don't go TWF, pounce is still decent for 2H weapons, not as helpful as for TWF, but far from worthless.
Spirit is cool if you have decent cha due to a demoralizer build.  The concealment from non-adjacent attacks is awesome for screwing with big monsters.
A lot of people like Dragon, but it's SOOOO costly and IMO the first two totem powers suck mightily.  Only the greater dragon totem for flight is any good, and I think you're better off just getting winged boots, which you can easily afford by then.  So yeah, I do not recommend dragon totem.

Don't take Sunder, if you don't want to destroy treasure, it's only a minor debuff that you wasted a bunch of attacks you could've been doing hp damage to achieve.  Along with the 3E issue of "a lot of monsters don't use items."  Trip is likely out of reach, ou need int 13 and combat expertise.  Dodge is decent, note it buffs CMD also.  Toughness certainly doesn't suck, but it's definitely less exciting...
Raging Vitality is basically a feat tax so rage won't inevitably auto kill you somewhere down the line because Paizo decided to regress on the progress of 3.0-->3.5 *sigh*, you may want that.
If it's an option, I think Cornugon Smash is the next best barb feat you can take after Power Attack (and it requires PA anyway).  Look that one up on d20pfsrd.

I have no idea why a 2nd level of Lame Oracle would boost your speed, you lost me there.

Far as staying in Barb...Invulnerable Rager's DR is IMO the only reason to really stay past *level12*!  I mean, what else do you really get?  All the Rage Powers after that point (Come and Get Me) are garbage...  Will boost at 14 is ok, maybe stick around just for that...  The capstone at 20 is pathetic compared to almost every other capstone, and you can get fatigue immunity LONG before Tireless Rage.  And...that's it, no other barb class features at all.  Other than improving DR for Invulnerable Rager, seems kinda silly to stay in Barb after that.

EDIT: Systole, when you get to Totems, you may want to address this unanswered issue: http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboard...ypeFromAPGAllowABarbarianToTakeMultipleTotems


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## Gorgoroth

*thanks for the input!*

I like the beast totem stuff because I can't be disarmed and having it already would have saved a lot of grief when I didn't have access to my greataxe while in town (during a goblin attack no less). We had to check our weapons a the gates.

The second level of oracle was at 16, when it negates speed penalty in heavy armor. I didn't remember the mithral full place counts as medium anyway, but regardless of that, my speed is still reduced by 10 by wearing medium armor, is it not? So by taking lame oracle 2, at level 18, I would get 10 speed back from the medium armor speed penalty, right? And the Bab is +1 at that level

I'm curious, why does Less Beast totem suck? I can still use a Greatsword and use the offhand claw for another attack, can't I? Might have to grab Quickdraw to shift your hand around, but I'm not sure how the rules work for this totem power. It says you gain two claw attacks at your full Bab while raging. Do you need to have both hands free in order to use the second claw attack? Even still, charge in with greatsword, chop, drop, claw. Saves a feat, but costs in amulets of mighty striking. Benefits such as Elemental Rage and so on are good. At level 10 with greater beast totem, the damage with your claws is equivalent to a doubleaxe with greater weapon focus, two weapon fighting, and double slice. That's 5 feats saved. Not too bad! Even better, with your pounce full attack, you avoid -2 on all your subsequent iterative attacks with your greatsword too. Also, with improved natural attack and greater beast totem, the damage with your claws is the same as a greatsword, but with an extra attack. Not bad!

I like claw attacks ala wolverine as a backup weapon in case I'm in jail or lose my weapon or it gets broken during combat, but also to avoid the TWF feat tree.

Reason I took Improved Sunder was so I could debuff enemy AC or damage during my first charge. I can fix the broken items after combat with a Mending spell, can't I? Granted, we're almost level 3 and I haven't used sunder once, so I am kind of coming over to this. BUT, when fighting that big bad d00d, sundering his wand or his armor, esp with Spell Sunder and the superstition / witch hunter powers I plan on taking to become a nuisance to magic users.

Now my main question is whether Metal oracle mystery at level 9 or weapon focus in claws with Battle. I'm leaning towards Metal for the speed, which is great with pounce.


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## StreamOfTheSky

Claws are nice if the DM likes to mess with you while you have no weapons/any equipment, definitely.  If he does that a lot, you're much better off just being a spellcaster, though (Sorcerer, if he goes so far as to restrict access to component pouch, holy symbol (is taking a cleric's holy symbol away other than a prisoner scenario EVER justifiable?), spellbook, etc...).

Ok, you need Oracle level 10 for no speed reduction in armor (you still need medium or lighter armor for Barb's Fast Movement, though).  You were saying level 16 (Barb 14/Oracle 2), that'd only be Oracle level 9.  Doing Barb 16/Oracle 2 would get you the level 10 effective Oracle level, yes.  Or you could just do Barb 18/Oracle 1...it's only 1 level later...

No, if you use a weapon with that hand, you canno also make claw attacks with that hand the same round.  Which is why bites, gores, tail slaps, etc... are all more useful natural weapons than claws. Also, if you use a manufactured weapon, any natural weapons automatically become secondary natural attacks, and thus have -5 to hit and only add half str to damage.  They are a nice backup weapon to have, though, I guess lesser totem doesn't suck, it's just not going to be useful most of the time.

If you're going the Witch Hunter/Spell Sunder route, sunder might be good, I haven't looked into that rage power much.

I think Waves (Water Sight), Time (Temporal Celerity + UMD as a class skill), Battle (War Sight + Enlarge person is an Oracle spell = you can use wand of enlarge person!), and Metal (the +10 speed one...) are the most useful mysteries and revelations for a Barbarian dipper.  Or just do a Dual-Cursed Oracle with just about any mystery and take Misfortune, which is just a crazy awesome revelation for debuffing AND buffing (they take the reroll, not the worst of the 2, so by all means use it on yourself and allies when you roll 1's!)


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## Gorgoroth

*lots of goodies*

ok, I have a lot to think about.

The fiend totem grants a gore attack, but obviously doesn't work with pounce (and as a good-aligned character, doesn't mesh anyway). Are there any other classes that grant primary natural attacks? Since I'm definitely going the pounce route, I'd like to take advantage of the claws, even if I do end up using it as a secondary attack after my greataxe / greatsword main attack. It's a bit better than improved two weapon fighting (on its own), as instead of -7 to hit it's only -5. I'd like like to know if I can remove my hand from holding my two handed weapon, so I can use my claw in the same round, via  Quickdraw. I made a synthesist summoner one time with 5 natural attacks and he was chopping through earth giants like butter (not playing that again since it's too OP and would ruin the fun for the rest of the party). But adding more attacks at full Bab showed me how powerful it can be.

By level 11, if I use only claws, it would be 3d6 damage + str mod + power attack 1x per hit. The power attack bonus would drop since they're 1x str mod attack, but an extra attack at full Bab is still great. (esp since I'll get to use it every round with Pounce). the 2d6 comes from imp natural attack, greater beast totem, and elemental rage.

I really do like the idea of smashing/sundering away magic with my sword though. Sweet!

Are there ways to boost power attack's benefit towards TWF or natural weapons? Like fighter archetypes or whatever


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## StreamOfTheSky

You CAN'T use claws and the greatsword/axe together.  Period.  Unless you multiclass with Alchemist and grow a pair of vestigial arms...  But no, you can't remove your hand and claw, etc...  If you use a weapon in that hand, you can't use a claw attack with that hand that round.

Synthesist: Was he very high level?  Synthesist is held to the same max # of natural attacks limit as an eidolon...

Only way I know of to increase the PA bonus for natural weapons is to only make a single attack with your only natural weapon (say you took animal fury and had a bite attack).  In those cases, it gets 1.5x str bonus to damage and 3-for-1 on PA.  As soon as you add any other attacks to your routine at all (whether other natural attacks, or manufactured ones which would in turn make your bite a 2ndary natural attack), you lose that.

EDIT: If you just really want a natural weapon user, you might be better off just being a Vivvisectionist Alchemist with the Feral Mutagen discovery and dipping barbarian.  You wouldn't get pounce doing that, but you could have wings and such instead.


----------



## Gorgoroth

*I love being a barbarian though*

Just wanted to say : 2 Claw attacks are good, except for when you're fighting enemies with Barkskin (thorns!). So I switched back to my axe for this. We turned level 3 and it's been good to be versatile, e.g. I dropped my axe on a crit fumble and I didn't need to waste any actions to keep fighting. Sometimes you need to hit once really badly, for not as much damage, to kill the enemy now. Big Axe can be overkill, so having more damage granularity is a good thing.


----------



## Gorgoroth

*natural attacks optimization*

are there any threads specifically related to barbarians optimizing claw attacks? I suppose it's generic enough, but with the monster feats MultiAttack (secondary natural attacks at -2, such as the bite attack from one of the rage powers) and Improved Natural Attacks, by level 10 I think you could be doing comparable DPS to a TWF fighter. With enlarge person spell or rage power, a barbarian could be doing 3d6 per hit, or up to 5d6 with elemental rage tacked on.


----------



## StreamOfTheSky

Gorgoroth said:


> are there any threads specifically related to barbarians optimizing claw attacks? I suppose it's generic enough, but with the monster feats MultiAttack (secondary natural attacks at -2, such as the bite attack from one of the rage powers) and Improved Natural Attacks, by level 10 I think you could be doing comparable DPS to a TWF fighter. With enlarge person spell or rage power, a barbarian could be doing 3d6 per hit, or up to 5d6 with elemental rage tacked on.




Damage comparable to a TWF is still less damage than just using a greatsword with Power Attack. 
And I'm not sure it's worth a feat just to make your bite have -2 to hit instead of -5, it's a pretty weak attack.  Also, Imp. Natural Attack is another 2 feats spent.  Note both of those and Multiattack cannot be taken at level 1, these would all be mid level feats; being Human and the like for more feats up front won't help ease the burden at all.

How about considering a dip into Synthesist Summoner?  You can use the eidolon's evo points to improve the damage of your natural attacks, and even get pounce.  The only bad part is...realizing how overpowered Synthesist Summoner is compared to the melee classes and realizing you're better off just being that instead. 



Gorgoroth said:


> e.g. I dropped my axe on a crit fumble and I didn't need to waste any actions to keep fighting.




EWWW!  Crit fumble rules!  I hates them, I hates them so so so so so so much!
It's one of the only houserules I've ever seen that will make me say, "You know what, screw this game, I'll find a different one to join."  Pretty much without fail.  Or just make a spellcaster if I'm desperate to play...


----------



## StreamOfTheSky

As for builds, here's one I started working on (unfinished).  It's not optimal as I was basing the character on a real life historical badass and chose curses to match, but seems decent.  I built using just the core, APG, and Ultimates, so no Cornugon Smash.  I'm really questioning how useful Intimidating Glare and a DC ~18 Terrifying Howl really is at his level, though, it'd probably be better to get rid of those rage powers and possibly the Dreadful Carnage chain and just do Cornugon Smash. 

*Ōtani Yoshitsugu, The Epitome of the Way of the Samurai (ECL 13)*
[sblock]NG Half-Elf
Invulnerable Rager Barbarian 8 / Dual-Cursed Oracle 1 / Barb +4
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 11, Cha 12 (25 PB)
HP: xxx [+39] (12d12 +1d8 +52 +13 favored class)
Str 21 (25) [31], Dex 14 (18), Con 14 (18) [24], Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 12 (14)
AC: 27 [25] (10 +9 armor +4 dex +1 insight +2 deflect +1 natural)
Touch: 17 [15]; FF: 23 [21]
Saves: Fortitude +15 [18], Reflex +11, Will +9 [12] (+2 vs. enchantment, +4 vs. disease)
BAB +12/+7/+2; CMB +19 [22], CMD 36 [37]

Feats:
1 Skill Focus (Intimidate) [Half-Elf]
1 Power Attack
3 Furious Focus
5 Step Up
7 Combat Reflexes
9 Extra Revelation (War Sight)
11 Intimidating Prowess
13 Dreadful Carnage

Skills (65):
Acrobatics +19 (13 ranks +3 class +4 dex -1 acp)
Climb +10 [13] (1 rank +3 class +7 str -1 acp)
Heal +4 (1 rank +3 class)
Intimidate +34 [37] (13 ranks +3 class +2 cha +7 str +6 focus +3 competence)
Know (history) +5 (1 rank +3 class +1 int)
Know (nature) +5 (1 rank +3 class +1 int)
Know (planes) +5 (1 rank +3 class +1 int)
Know (religion) +5 (1 rank +3 class +1 int)
Perception +18 (13 ranks +3 class +2 racial)
Spellcraft +5 (1 rank +3 class +1 int)
Survival +6 (3 ranks +3 class)
Swim +10 [13] (1 rank +3 class +7 str -1 acp)

Class: Fast Movement, Greater Rage (+6 str/con, +3 will, -2 AC; 30 rounds/day), Invulnerability (DR 6/--; DR 12 vs. nonlethal), Extreme Endurance (Endure Elements [heat] and fire resist 3), Lame Curse (-10 ft speed; immune to fatigue; not slowed by encumbrance), Wasting Curse (-4 on non-Intimidate cha checks; +4 saves vs. disease), Battle Mystery, Misfortune Revelation (Immediate, cause creature w/in 30 ft to reroll, limit once/creature/day)
Rage Powers: 2 - Intimidating Glare, 4 - Reckless Abandon, 6 – Guarded Life, 8 – Terrifying Howl, 10 - Flesh Wound, 12 - Come and Get Me

Spells (CL 1):
Level 0, infinite/day, DC 12: Detect Magic, Guidance, Light, Spark
Level 1, 4/day, DC 13: Bless, Cure Light Wounds, Entropic Shield

Equipment:
+3 Nodachi
+3 Mithral Breastplate
Str +4
Dex +4
Con +4
Cha +2
Circlet of Persuasion
Dusty Rose Iuon Stone
Ring of Protect +2
Natural Armor +1
Cloak of Resistance +3
Potions of Invigorate[/sblock]

[sblock]Yoshitsugu was at the head of about 600 men, with another 4000 or so under Toda Shigemasa, Hiratsuka Tamehiro, Ōtani Yoshikatsu (his son), and Kinoshita Yoritsugu. As the battle raged on, Kobayakawa Hideaki, who was situated above Yoshitsugu on Mount Matsuo, didn't move, despite repeated calls from Ishida Mitsunari. Yoshitsugu suspected something, and thus called for his troops to position themselves so as to prepare for a possible attack from their flanks. His hunch was right, as following a stimulatory gun volley from Ieyasu's position, Kobayakawa Hideaki and his troops rushed down the mountain towards Yoshitsugu's position. This movement was immediately followed by Akaza Naoyasu, Ogawa Suketada, Kutsuki Mototsuna, and Wakizaka Yasuharu, a total of over 20,000 troops.

Yoshitsugu's troops fought back, at one point even driving back Kobayakawa's troops partway up the mountain, but in the end, sheer numbers took their toll. While this was happening, Yoshitsugu, unable to see, repeatedly asked one of his retainers, Yuasa Gosuke, "Is it lost?" When the latter finally answered in the affirmative, Yoshitsugu asked him to cut his head off. He was then beheaded by his retainer, who also committed seppuku.[/sblock]


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## Gorgoroth

*dpr*

is a greatsword comparable even with power attack to a TWF build?

let's assume level 10:
bab : 10  (+2 more when raging due to str)
str 18 = +4  (+4 more when raging)

expected chance to hit, e.g. 60% at +16
...

magic greatsword +3 vs amulet of mighty fists +3

greatsword /w elemental rage:
2 attacks, 10-3(PA)+3magic+2(rage)+4 = +16 / +11
damage per hit = 3d6 + 9 (two hand str bonus) + 9 (PA) +3 magic = 10.5 + 18 + 3 = 31.5
total expected dpr (0.6 + 0.35 = 0.9) * 31.5 = 28.35

two claws at 3d6 (greater animal totem + improved natural attacks + elemental rage):
3 attacks, +16/+16 / +11
damage per hit = 3d6 + 6 (one hand str bonus) + 6 (PA) +3 magic = 25.5
total expected dpr (0.6 + 0.35 + 0.35 = 0.9) * 25.5 = 33.15

ahead by a bit, methinks. the Two handed guy wins against enemies with damage shields where less number of attacks wins, the twf guy wins with more static buffs to damage (although for natural claw attacks, I'm not sure what that is, exactly). The claw guy also wins when you drop your sword, are in town, are captured, etc. I think a good strategy, considering I want pounce anyway at level 10 via greater beast totem and the natural armor is always useful, is to do both.

the Two handed guy could benefit from weapon focus or energy damage tacked onto his sword, which would give him probably slightly higher dpr. So, I don't know...I love swords but versatility is top. And pounce is great, even if you never intend to use your claws. I'll probably end up with elemental rage and all the beast totem stuff, and save feats from improved natural attacks for more rage powers or toughness or something.

If there would be a way to add +d6 energy damage to claws from a magic item, similar to a Shock or Flaming Sword does, I think claws come out ahead again. I would also assume that weapon focus would give more dpr to the claw guy than the two handed guy, and but I'm not sure if giving up d8 -> 2d6 jump at level 10 is worth +1 to hit. From 4e I know + to hit is godly, so I'll probably grab weapon focus claws from oracle dip anyway


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