# Unity - ToB Game (Recruiting)



## gabrion (Sep 28, 2006)

*Unity*​
_The man before you wears an old cloak, tired armor, and a look of grave concern.  His eyes hold wisdom beyond what most men will ever know.  Those eyes pierce you to the soul as he looks at you and begins to speak.

*The kingdom of Kalisar is in grave danger.  Ancient evil stirs its hand once more, preparing to rise up against these broken lands.  The guardians who once protected us – the nine temples of the sublime way – have forgotten their oaths.  Only by reuniting them can Kalisar be saved.

For this I have gathered you here.  You will travel to the nine ancient temples and do whatever you must to reunite them.  If you succeed you will be the saviors of a land.  If you fail, all will be lost.* _

* * *​
The Game

To begin, this is a continuation of this thread.  Posters from the other thread will have first dibs, but others are welcome to post here as well.

As you can tell from above, this is going to be an unapologetically clichéd game involving ancient evil, mysterious old guys to progress the plot, and systematic conquest of nine temples of the sublime way.  It’s going to be set in a largely undefined homebrew world where geography will be about as complex as “the jungle is north of you,” or “the island is on the other side of the water.”

You should also know that the game will be combat oriented.  While there will be opportunity for diplomacy and the like, dungeon delving wont be the order of the day.  Please make characters accordingly.

Religion in the world will be very simple.  There used to be a lot of gods, but then they all got in a fight and killed eachother.  Now there are just three.  Vitus the LG god of the heavens, Mira the TN watcher, and Xerik the NE god of the abyss.  If your character uses divine power, you’ll need to worship one of these gods.  Domains are flexible.  If you are not a cleric, you can either worship one of these gods or one of the dead gods (feel free to totally make one up).  Just keep in mind that dead gods can’t give their worshipers any powers, since they’re…well…dead.

The mythology of the world follows from that presented in the Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords (which, btw is a required book for this game).  However, the setting is about 1,000 years after Reshar’s temple was destroyed by the Tiger Lord and the Shadow Master.  The nine schools have reverted to studying in isolated temples and it will be the job of the PCs to bring them back together.  The temple of nine swords was rebuilt though, and a small number of martial adepts still study there.  This is where you all studied, and it is where the campaign will begin.

Character Creation

Sources: Any 3.5 WotC, but material from the ToB is preferred.  Setting specific stuff is ok, but it will have to be converted to a generic setting.  
Abilities: 18, 16, 16, 14, 10, 8 distributed how you see fit.
Races: Any race, but no more than +2 LA
Classes: Any
Level: 6th (18,000 XP)
Hit Points: Max at first level, max-1 at each level after that (I want ya’ll to “win”)
Wealth: 19,000 gp. (One level above the curve…I want ya’ll to be well-equipped)

Bonus!

Each character can choose one special bonus at character creation.  A few examples include:
A free +1 LA template
Adjustments to a PrC you wish to enter (for instance, making the Jade Phoenix Mage or Ruby Knight Vindicator PrCs full casters and adjusting their entry requirements)
Increasing your starting wealth by 10,000 gp
These are just some possible ideas for what the bonus can be…the players are encouraged to come up with others.  Think of this as your chance to break the rules once at character creation.  

What I need
A full character sheet.  I’m not picky about what it looks like, but I do have a preference for really long vertigo inducing sheets.
A description of your character.  Add a picture for an extra 500 XP.
A backstory.  I don’t need this to be five pages, but make it more than two sentences.  You all have been training or working at the Temple of Nine Swords (how long depends on your age), so that part should be easy.  The temple now is a kind of academy and you are some of the most promising students they have right now.  The details are up to you.

As always, the DM reserves veto power on anything submitted, even if it follows the guidelines above.


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## ByteRynn (Sep 28, 2006)

This will expand as I get more, but here is my base info:

Halidon the Blade

Where Halidon the Blade and Halidon the man end and begin is sometimes unclear.  Twenty years ago an infant was left on the doorsteps of the Temple of Nine Swords with nothing to his name but the rags he was wrapped in and the magnificent sword by his side.  Inscribed on the blade was a single word, "Halidon."  The instructors and monks of the temple took the boy in, and started calling him after the sword.

At this point I will come up with some interesting and character building anecdotes about Halidon's training.

Stats:

None yet, but I am thinking Monk 2/Swordsage 4.  I plan on taking the feat from Eberron, Whirling Steel Strike and using a longsword as my blade.  

For my big advantage I have a few ideas:
1.  Swordsage gets fighter BAB
2.  I get to make my very own Weapon of Legacy using Weapon of Legacy rules from the book.

If I get other ideas, and as I finish stats, I will edit this page.  I welcome any input.


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## Azaar (Sep 28, 2006)

Crazy question:  would the Necropolitan template from _Libris Mortis_ be considered the equivalent of a LA +1 template for purposes of your bonus?  It deals with a level loss as part of the transformation -- I ask because I'm wondering if perhaps an undead character would be kosher in this regard.

Otherwise... well, Masquerade did claim dibs on the Jade Phoenix Mage, although I'm really leaning towards trying my own hand at it with Swordsage 2/Warmage 4 and use the bonus to make the JPM a full-caster progression.  I'll wait to see what he says, as well as whether it would be kosher to have two arcanist/initiators in the group.


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## Paper_Bard (Sep 28, 2006)

I love the idea behind this... but unfortunately... I do not actually have the Tome of Battle book. Would it be okay to make a standard character, perhaps using the Complete books and the races of stone?


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## Dracomeander (Sep 28, 2006)

I would also like to be considered for this game. 

I have been kicking around a couple of ideas since I saw the other thread.

The two concepts I'm looking at are a human Shadow Sun Ninja or an elf Warblade working toward Eternal Blade.

I'm further along with the Shadow Sun character, but if that's what ByteRynn is working towards I have no problem working up the elf.


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## Masquerade (Sep 28, 2006)

Many thanks for the favorable array.  With our class combinations, MAD could have been a problem.



			
				ByteRynn said:
			
		

> None yet, but I am thinking Monk 2/Swordsage 4.




Why?  Is there anything a Monk2/Swordsage4 can do that a Swordsage6 cannot?



			
				Azaar said:
			
		

> Otherwise... well, Masquerade did claim dibs on the Jade Phoenix Mage, although I'm really leaning towards trying my own hand at it with Swordsage 2/Warmage 4 and use the bonus to make the JPM a full-caster progression.  I'll wait to see what he says, as well as whether it would be kosher to have two arcanist/initiators in the group.




Swordsage2/Warmage4 would play vastly different from Beguiler4/Warblade2.  I have no objection.  I'm not positive if I will even go for Jade Phoenix Mage.



Okay, current outline (and, yes, I did put the 18 in Charisma ^_^):

Race: Changeling
Class: Beguiler4/Warblade2

Ability Scores: STR 17 (4th level bonus) - DEX 14 - CON 10 - INT 16 - WIS 8 - CHA 18
HP: 43 (4d6+2d12+0)
BAB (assumed non-fractional): +4
Saves (assumed non-fractional): Fort +4 - REF +5 (+3 when flat-footed) - Will +3
Spells per day 0/1st/2nd: 6/7/4 (caster level 4th)
Maneuvers Known/Readied/Stances: 4/3/1 (initiator level 4th)

Changeling traits: +2 racial bonus on saves vs sleep and charm, +2 racial bonus on bluff/intimidate/sense motive, Natural Linguist (speak language always class skill), Minor Change Shape
Beguiler features: Armored mage, Trapfinding, Cloaked casting (+1 DC), Surprise casting, Advanced learning, and 63 skill points
Warblade features: Battle clarity (Reflex saves), Weapon aptitude, Uncanny dodge, and 14 skill points
Languages: Common plus 3 others (maybe more from speak language ranks)

Feats (3 total): Evasive Reflexes (ToB), Vexing Flanker (PHBII), Racial Emulation (RoE)


I will have no problem writing up the background, appearance, etc.  Just want to get the mechanics ironed out first.

edit - Oh, and for that bonus... I think I'm going to go for the free +1 LA template option.  Specifically, the Dark template from Tome of Magic (extraplanar subtype, +10 speed, darkvision 60 ft., hide in plain sight, resistance to cold 10, superior low-light vision, hide+8, move silently+6).


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## gabrion (Sep 28, 2006)

@ByteRynn-Looks interesting so far.  I also wonder how essential the monk is, but that's completely up to you.  As for the special bonus, I actually thought about adjusting BAB of classes, but I'm still not sure I like that idea.  We'll see.

@Azaar-I really dislike undead characters and I don't feel the theme works all that well in this game, but if you must be a necropolitan then yes, that would be considered a +1 LA and you could get it for free.  Also, as has been pointed out, two different prefixes for JPM could make the class play very differently.  I know you're thinking of warmage right now, but have you given any thought to the Battle Sorcerer?  They get fewer spells known and spells per day, but are a good deal more martial than the warmage.  Just a thought.

@Paper_Bard-Well I'm going to give preferance to people have the book and are using it, so while you can feel free to submit a character, it seems like enough other people have put forth ideas (in this thread or the last), that it will be difficult for you to get a spot.

@Masquerade-Looks good so far.  I'll be interested to see more.  As for the dark template, I'm familiar with that and it fine (in case you were wondering).  As a matter of fact, I had it in mind when I was making the OP.  I thought I should allow increased starting gold as an option, but I didn't know how much gold would be the equivilant of a +1 template.  Then I remembered the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis from ToM gives a template for about 10,000 gp so I just used that figure.


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## hafrogman (Sep 28, 2006)

I found this picture recently, so it's been shaping my character concept.

Currently looking like this
[Sblock=Character]
	
	



```
[B]Name:[/B]       Icarus
[B]Class:[/B]      Warblade 5/Bloodstorm Blade 1
[B]Race:[/B]       Winged Human
[B]Size:[/B]       Medium (6'1", 178 lb)
[B]Gender:[/B]     Male
[B]Alignment:[/B]  Chaotic Good       

[B]Str:[/B] 14 +2   [B]Level:[/B]     6     [B]XP:[/B] 18,000 / 21,000
[B]Dex:[/B] 18 +4   [B]BAB:[/B]      +6     [B]HP:[/B] 61 (6d12-6)
[B]Con:[/B]  9 -1   [B]Grapple:[/B]  +8
[B]Int:[/B] 16 +3   [B]Speed:[/B]    30'  Fly 50' (Perfect)
[B]Wis:[/B] 10 +0   [B]Init:[/B]     +4
[B]Cha:[/B] 16 +3
```
[/sblock]

I was going to use the winged template for the character until I realized it was plus two.  It normally grants a fly speed of land speed +20 with a maneuverability based on dexterity, and then gives +4 dex and +2 wisdom.  I thought if I knocked off the bonuses and just left the fly speed that it could be my bonus.


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## Azaar (Sep 28, 2006)

I'll need to look at the Battle Sorcerer again and check it out.  My main reason for the Warmage was because of the nice little blurb about no arcane spell failure in light armor (and if I wanted to try for 8th level Warmage boost to medium armor and the ability to ignore arcane spell failure on that, which was an option to finish out the 20 levels if I went for JPM).  Warlock is much the same way, except the added versatility of having spell-like abilities above and beyond the eldritch blast.

Someone mentioned the prospect of taking that melee invocation:  I dislike it because it's only for one attack (because SLAs are standard actions, which conflict with full-round attack actions), and the opponent gets an AoO on you as well.

The necropolitan question was simply that:  personally, I'm not too wild about doing it myself, although then it would have made an excellent dump stat for that 8 to go into Con.  What I need to do is look at all the LA +1 templates and see what's available, as potential options.


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## hafrogman (Sep 28, 2006)

Battle Sorcerer can cast in Light Armor, and CA has a feat to let you bump it to medium.


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## Azaar (Sep 28, 2006)

Yes, but Battle Sorcerer has to take Armor Proficiency (medium) first, then take Battle Caster -- 2 feats gone.  Warmage gets the combination for free at 8th level.


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## hafrogman (Sep 28, 2006)

Right, sorry.  Didn't notice that Swordsage didn't get Medium Armor.


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## ByteRynn (Sep 28, 2006)

I looked at it, and I have decided to change the mechanics behind my concept a little bit...basically the concept is one man, one blade, no frills.

I think it'll do him better as a monk2/warblade4.  After looking at the swordsage, I am a little underwhelmed.  As for the Warblade, I was wondering if a doable bonus would be allowing the bonus feats to be pulled from the fighter list instead of the Warblade list?

I am still a little up in the air on how I want to build my guy...I might change my mind all together!


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## Voidrazor (Sep 28, 2006)

Any chance I could take the half-minotaur template as my bonus? Its from a Dragon mag, so I'll understnad if the answer is no. But the details are available on Crystal Keep's template section. If so, I've got a cool pic.


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## Bloodweaver1 (Sep 29, 2006)

This may or may not be in line with the theme that you have stated but what heck:

How about a Warforged Psyonic Warrior with a dip into the Warforged Juggernaunt PrC? As a the 'free bonus' character gets full BaB? Let me know. 

If not I can draw up something else.

-Blood


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## gabrion (Sep 30, 2006)

@hafrogman-Looks good so far.  The winged template is fine as your bonus, and you can even keep a +2 dex bonus along with the wings.

@Azaar-Well either warmage or battle sorcerer is fine (or anything else you choose) and it looks like ya'll have identified some of the advantages of either choice.  Just keep in mind that mithral medium armor is treated as light armor, so that can help a little.  

@ByteRynn-Sounds interesting.  It would be fine to take fighter bonus feats.  Actually, I would allow the character to combine the two lists of feats, so they could take bonus feats from either one.

@Voidrazor-The template is fine and I like the pic!

@Bloodweaver-Are you saying just PW/Warforged Juggernaut without any ToB classes?  As I've said before, I'm not going to disallow concepts like that, but I prefer people use stuff from that book.


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## Azaar (Sep 30, 2006)

Yeah, mithral chainmail would be nice.  IIRC, you still have to have Armor Proficiency (medium) before you can wear the chainmail proficiently, though.  At least, that's the way I've understood it to be from what I've heard here and at the WoTC forums.

By the way, does anyone know where a list of LA +1 templates are?  The cheapest one I've found so far is a _Libris Mortis[/b] template:  the half-vampire at LA +2.  I'm gonna look through my other 3.5 books and see what there is._


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## gabrion (Sep 30, 2006)

Azaar said:
			
		

> Yeah, mithral chainmail would be nice.  IIRC, you still have to have Armor Proficiency (medium) before you can wear the chainmail proficiently, though.  At least, that's the way I've understood it to be from what I've heard here and at the WoTC forums.




Well as a DM I treat the mithral as being one category lighter for ALL purposes, including proficiency.  I know some people disagree with that interpretation of the rules, but I also have the 3.5 FAQ on my side.    (Keep in mind though that I tend to disregard the FAQ as a DM when it disagrees with me)



			
				3.5 FAQ said:
			
		

> Is a character proficient with light armor, such as a
> rogue, considered to be proficient with mithral breastplate?
> What about a character proficient with medium armor,
> such as a barbarian—is he considered proficient with
> ...






> By the way, does anyone know where a list of LA +1 templates are?  The cheapest one I've found so far is a _Libris Mortis[/b] template:  the half-vampire at LA +2.  I'm gonna look through my other 3.5 books and see what there is._



_

You can find many of them here._


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## Azaar (Sep 30, 2006)

Ahh, okay.  I should read the FAQ a bit more often, then.  Thanks for that, and for the list.  Hopefully I'll have something nailed down soon.


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## Dracomeander (Sep 30, 2006)

Here is my character submission.


'Brother Eclipse' 
Human Swordsage 3 / Monk 2 / Shadow Sun Ninja 1

'Brother Eclipse' was fortunate enough to be born to a servant family at the Temple of the Nine where he was introduced to the ways of the brother adepts. Although an indifferent study in the histories and lore of the way, he was quite an avid student of the practical applications of the Shadow Sun discipline. Seeing such aptitude for that discipline in the child, the brothers strove to impart within him their strong sense of the morality and ethics of their discipline so that the child would have the inner strength to resist the temptation to fall completely into the Shadow.

Under the tutelege of the Shadowspeaker of the Shadow Sun, 'Eclipse' advanced quickly in the discipline until he finally achieved the breakthrough necessary to tap into the energies of both the Shadow and the Light. Now that 'Eclipse' has fully touched the dichotomy of the philosophy of their discipline, the Shadowspeaker has declared it is time for him to go out and see how his insight can change the world.

'Eclipse' is a solemn young man slightly above average in height with black hair and a dusky olive complexion. Athletic and utterly calm in almost any situation, he seems at home in the shadows where he moves with a fluidity and grace that is nearly unnatural. Only in purely social situations does his calm seem forced as he is notably unfamiliar with the world outside of the brotherhood that raised him.

[sblock]
	
	



```
STR 16 +3
DEX 17 +3 (+1 at 4th level)
CON 14 +2
INT 10 +0
WIS 18 +4
CHA  8 -1

HD 6d8 + 12  (55 hp)
Initiative: +4 (3 Dex + 1 Quick to Act)
AC 17 (+3 Dex, +4 Wis)

     [using normal method];    [using fractional base]
Fort   8 (6 base + 2 Con);        8 (6.5 base + 2 Con)
Ref   11 (8 base + 3 Dex);       12 (9 base + 3 Dex)
Will  12 (8 base + 4 Wis);       13 (9 base + 4 Wis)

BAB +3 (2 Ssg + 1 Mnk + 0 Ssn); +4 (2.25 Ssg + 1.5 Monk + .75 SSn)


Skills:            Total = Ranks + Ab Mod + Misc
Balance               10 =   5   +   3    +  2
Concentration         11 =   9   +   2
Hide                  11 =   8   +   3
Jump                  10 =   5   +   3    +  2
Know (History)         1 =   1
Know (Local)           1 =   1
Know (The Planes)      1 =   1
Martial Lore           1 =   1
Move Silently         11 =   8   +   3
Sense Motive          13 =   9   +   4
Tumble                14 =   9   +   3    +  2

Feats:
1) Simple Weapons Proficiency
1) Martial Melee Weapons Proficiency
1) Light Armor Proficiency
1) Adaptive Style
1) Unnerving Calm
2) Monk Weapons Proficiency
2) Improved Unarmed Strike
2) Stunning Fist
3) Combat Reflexes
3) Falling Sun Attack
6) Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain)

Maneuvers [(r) readied]:
Stances:
1) Child of Shadow - Shadow Hand lvl 1
4) Step of the Wind - Setting Sun lvl 1
Bracers) Leaping Dragon Stance - Tiger Claw lvl 3

Boosts:
1) Burning Blade - Desert Wind lvl 1 (r)
1) Sudden Leap - Tiger Claw lvl 1

Counters:
1) Counter Charge - Setting Sun lvl 1
6) Baffling Defense - Setting Sun Lvl 2 (r)

Strikes:
1) Clinging Shadow Strike - Shadow Hand lvl 1 (r)
1) Mighty Throw - Setting Sun lvl 1
1) Sapphire Nightmare Blade - Diamond Mind lvl 1 (r)
4) Drain Vitality - Shadow Hand lvl 2 (r)
5) Mountain Hammer - Stone Dragon lvl 2

Swordsage Abilities:
* Quick to Act +1
* Discipline Focus (Weapon Focus - Shadow Hand)
* AC Bonus (add Wis mod to AC when unencumbered in Light Armor or less)

Monk Abilities:
* AC Bonus (add Wis mod +1/5 class levels to AC when unencumbered with no armor)
* Bonus Feat (Stunning Fist)
* Flurry of Blows
* Unarmed Strike
* Bonus Feat (Combat Reflexes)
* Evasion
* Unarmored Speed Bonus (+10 ft)

Shadow Sun Ninja Abilities:
* Monk Abilities (SSNinja levels stack with Monk levels for many Monk ablities)
* Touch of the Shadow Sun

Equipment (19000 gp):
Spiked Chain +1                     (2325 gp)
Heward's Handy Haversack            (2000 gp)
Ring of Protection +1               (2000 gp)
Amulet of Mighty Fists +1           (6000 gp)
Tiger Claw Bracers, Novice          (3000 gp)
Vest of Resistance +1               (1000 gp)
Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds (x5) (1500 gp)
Potion of Cure Light Wounds (x5)    ( 250 gp) [18075 gp]
Alchemist's Fire (x5)               ( 100 gp) [18175 gp]
Masterwork Silver Dagger            ( 320 gp) [18495 gp]
Everburning Torch                   ( 110 gp) [18605 gp]
Sling & 50 Bullets                  (  .5 gp)
Sack (x5)                           (  .5 gp) [18606 gp]
Rope, Silk 50' (4 coils)            (  40 gp) [18646 gp]
Small Steel Mirror                  (  10 gp) [18656 gp]
Monk's Outfit (x3)
Crowbar
Signal Whistle
Trail Rations (10 days)
Waterskin (x4)
Bedroll
Winter Blanket
Flint & Steel
```
[/sblock]

I'm still working on equipment & trying to decide what to take for the GM bonus. If you have any suggestions, I welcome hearing them.


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## Azaar (Oct 1, 2006)

Still thinking.  Right now, I'm crazy enough to consider Swordsage 2/Warlock 4, with the thought of doing JPM.  The problem isn't just the requirements precluding warlocks (not that it surprises me -- I only hope that some decent prestige classes come out in the _Complete Mage_ along with the additional invocations and the like), but the fact that not only is it not full-caster progression, but I also lose out on the warlock stuff like the fiendish resilience, the potential inherent in imbue item and the like.

gabrion:  You mentioned in the previous thread about the prospect of incentives for pursuing the Jade Phoenix Mage.  What sort of incentives did you mean, or has that been subsumed into the bonus that everyone's getting?


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## gabrion (Oct 1, 2006)

Azaar said:
			
		

> gabrion:  You mentioned in the previous thread about the prospect of incentives for pursuing the Jade Phoenix Mage.  What sort of incentives did you mean, or has that been subsumed into the bonus that everyone's getting?




The only general incentive I was going to offer is that the PrC requirements change so that you only need 8 ranks in concentration, so you can jump in at 6th level rather than 7th.  But for character bonus, you could make the PrC full casting and for a warlock, you could make the requirement Caster Level 3rd rather than ability to cast 2nd level spells.  

However, if you do this you'll also have to present me with alternative abilities for the class taht require sacrificing spell slots, since a warlock has not spells slots and simply allowing him to fuel the abilities with a use of an invocation would be overpowered.


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## Masquerade (Oct 1, 2006)

A little update.  I'll have the background and appearance descriptions typed out soon (still constructing them in my head).  Also still working on equipment.  Aside from these things, I have a mostly complete character!

(Note that AC will obviously be a bit higher once I've bought equipment.)


```
Names:      Ramist Moroder
            Vytelle Oru Naequian
Class:      Beguiler 4 / Warblade 2
Race:       Changeling
Template:   Dark (LA+1)
Size:       Medium
Gender:     Variable
Age:        25
Alignment:  Chaotic Good

Str: 17 +3    Level:     6    XP: 18,000 / 21,000
Dex: 14 +2    BAB:      +4    HP: 43 (4d6+2d12+0)
Con: 10 +0    Grapple:  +7
Int: 16 +3    Speed:    40'   Fort: +4
Wis:  8 -1    Init:     +2    Ref:  +5 (+3 when flat-footed)
Cha: 18 +5                    Will: +3

AC:   12        Languages:    Common, Elven, Dwarven, Draconic
FFAC: 10        Weapon Prof.: All simple, all melee martial, hand crossbow
ToAC: 12        Armor Prof.:  Light, medium, all shields (except tower shields)

Perception Skills: Total = Ranks + Ab Mod + Misc
  Listen               3 =   4   +  -1        
  Spot                 3 =   4   +  -1        
  Sense Motive         5 =   4   +  -1    +  2

Other Skills:      Total = Ranks + Ab Mod + Misc
  Balance              5 =   3   +   2        
  Bluff               14 =   7   +   5    +  2
  Concentration        8 =   8   +   0        
  Diplomacy           10 =   3   +   5    +  2
  Disable Device       3 =   1   +   2        
  Disguise            12 =   7   +   5
    (additional +2 on checks to act in character)
  Escape Artist        3 =   1   +   2        
  Hide                17 =   7   +   2    +  8
  Intimidate          12 =   3   +   5    +  4
  Jump                 6 =   3   +   3
  Martial Lore         4 =   1   +   3        
  Move Silently       15 =   7   +   2    +  6
  Open Lock            3 =   1   +   2        
  Search               8 =   5   +   3        
  Sleight of Hand      5 =   1   +   2    +  2
  Tumble               4 =   2   +   2        
  Use Magic Device    10 =   5   +   5

Arcane Spellcasting (Beguiler)
  Caster level:    4th
  Spells per day:  6 / 7 / 4
  Spells Known:    Full beguiler list plus Net of Shadows (SC)

Maneuvers and Stances (Warblade)
  Initiator level: 4th
  Man. Known:      4
    1st: Steel Wind (Iron), Leading the Attack (White)
    2nd: Disarming Strike (Iron), Mountain Hammer (Stone)
  Man. Readied:    3
  Stances Known:   1
     1st: Stance of Clarity (Diam)

Changeling Traits
  +2 racial bonus on saves vs sleep and charm
  +2 racial bonus on bluff/intimidate/sense motive
  Natural Linguist (speak language always class skill)
  Minor Change Shape

Dark Template Traits
  Extraplanar subtype
  +10 speed
  Superior low-light vision
  Darkvision 60 ft.
  Hide in plain sight
  Resistance to cold 10
  Hide+8, Move Silently+6

Beguiler Features (63 skill points)
  Armored mage
  Trapfinding
  Cloaked casting (+1 DC)
  Surprise casting
  Advanced learning (Net of Shadows)

Warblade Features (14 skill points)
  Battle clarity (Reflex saves)
  Weapon aptitude
  Uncanny dodge

Feats
 (1) Evasive Reflexes (ToB)
 (3) Vexing Flanker (PHBII)
 (6) Racial Emulation (RoE)
```


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## Azaar (Oct 2, 2006)

Point.  I didn't read closely enough (or forgot) about those parts of Arcane Wrath, Mystic Phoenix Stance and Firebird Stance -- my bad.  I initially considered offering the prospect of sacrificing the use of a warlock invocation for the combat encounter to fuel it, but that won't work, especially given some of the lower-level 24-hour duration invocations.  So, I'll ditch Warlock -- maybe some game, I can figure out a good concept to play a Warlock in a game that actually lasts past the first week or two of posting before dying off. 

So, back to basics.  In the end, I think my initial concept has the most potential, and I've got an idea as for how to pull it off, which may work.  So, here we go...

Lorana Brightflame:  NG Female Human Swordsage 2/Warmage 4 (intention to pursue Jade Phoenix Mage PrC)

Lorana Brightflame was raised from infancy at the Temple of the Nine after an unknown stranger brought the newborn baby girl and left her there.  To the instructors, a message was given:  the child was not only to be trained in the Sublime Way, but also in the arcane arts -- specifically, to undergo additional training as a warmage.  The stranger would return when the time was right, and then the truth would be known.  The note ended with a strange riddle:  _What rises must fall, but what has fallen will rise again._

Lorana, of course, was unaware of the instructions left by her unknown benefactor, but took to her studies with a fervent zeal once she reached the minimum age to begin her training.  Most of her training centered on the combined martial and arcane arts of the warmage, complemented by her ability as a swordsage.  What intrigued her instructors, however, was her skill with fire spells, and the ease with which she wielded them.  What intrigued them more was the fact that she could alter other spells to become fire spell.

What worried them, however, was that her fire spells did not possess the appearance of normal flame.  The fire was emerald-green instead.

The truth was that Lorana was the latest reincarnation of the ancient Jade Phoenix Master known as the Brightflame.  Her unknown benefactor, himself a reincarnated Jade Phoenix Master, had brought Lorana to the Temple of Nine to prepare her for the destiny that awaited her.  The time of destiny is finally at hand, although Lorana remains unaware of the truth at present.  What happens after she learns of her destiny, however, is anybody's guess...

Description:  5' 9" in height; fiery-red hair past her shoulders; emerald-green eyes; slim, athletic build (if I can find a picture, I'll post).

Stats to come (likely will be edited in once I get them ready).

Notes:  Virtually nothing past this has been set in stone, other than this background (which can be altered if necessary -- I wrote this spur-of-the-moment) and the class breakdown.  Not certain what my class bonus will be (I'm not worried about reducing the Concentration requirement by one rank, although I may opt for full-caster progression, as I don't know of a LA +1 template that would fit in).  I'm also uncertain about whether it's kosher to have emerald flame effects for my fire spells; this might require Spell Thematics from _Magic of Faerun_ -- admittedly 3.0 material, since I don't think the feat was updated for 3.5 -- unless you want to just allow it as something interesting as a character trait.  Energy Substitution (fire) is likely a definite feat selection.

gabrion:  Let me know how this looks when you get a chance.  If I need to make changes, that's not a problem.  At least now I have a concept to build on.  I'll try to have stats ready in the next day or so -- if there's anything you think I should add or tweak, feel free to point out the possibilities.


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## gabrion (Oct 2, 2006)

Azaar said:
			
		

> gabrion:  Let me know how this looks when you get a chance.  If I need to make changes, that's not a problem.  At least now I have a concept to build on.  I'll try to have stats ready in the next day or so -- if there's anything you think I should add or tweak, feel free to point out the possibilities.




Looks great so far.  As for the fire having a different visual look that's perfectly fine.


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## Dracomeander (Oct 2, 2006)

gabrion, what do you think of Brther Eclipse? Is there anything you would want to see changed? Can a spot be found for him on the team?

You've commented on every other submisssion but haven't posted anything about him.


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## gabrion (Oct 2, 2006)

Dracomeander said:
			
		

> gabrion, what do you think of Brther Eclipse? Is there anything you would want to see changed? Can a spot be found for him on the team?
> 
> You've commented on every other submisssion but haven't posted anything about him.




Hehe...don't take that as a negative, I just usually respond to direct questions or if something in particular strikes me that needs commenting on.  Brother Eclipse looks pretty solid so far and he has a chance of getting into the game, but no guarantees.

Speaking of which, everyone should know that I'm planning to have five players in this game.  I'm going to give an advantage in the selection process to those who posted in the original thread, but they aren't guaranteed spots.  I'm not sure exactly how long I'll wait before choosing, but it shouldn't be more than a week.


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## hafrogman (Oct 3, 2006)

Here's a more fleshed out character with background.  I stole parts of the myth along with the name, but I think it worked out in an interesting way.

[sblock=Character]
	
	



```
[B]Name:[/B]       Icarus
[B]Class:[/B]      Warblade 5/Bloodstorm Blade 1
[B]Race:[/B]       Winged Human
[B]Size:[/B]       Medium (6'1", 178 lb)
[B]Gender:[/B]     Male
[B]Alignment:[/B]  Chaotic Good       

[B]Str:[/B] 18 +4   [B]Level:[/B]     6     [B]XP:[/B] 18,000 / 21,000
[B]Dex:[/B] 18 +4   [B]BAB:[/B]      +6     [B]HP:[/B] 67 (6d12)
[B]Con:[/B] 11 +0*  [B]Grapple:[/B] +10
[B]Int:[/B] 14 +2   [B]Speed:[/B]    30'    Fly 50' (Perfect)
[B]Wis:[/B] 10 +0   [B]Init:[/B]     +5
[B]Cha:[/B] 16 +3  

* Amulet of Health +2, +1 @ 4th level


                      [B]Base  Armor  Shield  Dex  Size  Misc[/B]
[B]Armor:[/B] 20             10     +5     +0     +4   +0    +1 (Deflection)
[B]Touch:[/B] 15
[B]Flat:[/B]  16

                      [B]Base  Mod  Misc[/B]
[B]Fort:[/B]  +6              +6    -1   +1
[B]Ref:[/B]   +6              +1    +4   +1
[B]Will:[/B]  +7              +1    +3  +2,+1

[B]Weapon                Attack  Damage  Critical  Type[/B]
Spear               +11/+6    1d8+9     20/x3     P
Spear, Thrown       +11/+6    1d8+7     20/x3     P       (Range 20')



[B]Languages:[/B]
Common, Auran, Celestial
   

[B]Abilities:[/B]
Battle Clarity
Weapon Aptitude
Uncanny Dodge
Battle Ardor
Returning Attacks

[B]Feats:[/B]
Point Blank Shot [Human]
Weapon Focus: Spear [1st]
Precise Shot [3rd]
Iron Will [Warblade 5]
Weapon Specialization: Spear [6th]
Throw Anything [Bloodstorm Blade 1]


[B]Skill Points:[/B] 63    [B]Max Ranks:[/B] 9/4

[B]Skills:               Ranks  Mod  Misc[/B]

Balance +11            8     +4
Concentrate +6         7     -1
Diplomacy +14          8     +3     +3
Heal +4               4cc    +0      
Listen +4             4cc    +0
Sense Motive +4       2cc    +0
Spot +4                4     +0
Tumble +11             8     +4
Use Magic Device +10  4cc    +3     +3

*Armor Check Penalty: -1


[B]Maneuvers Known[/B]
1: Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Steel Wind, Steely Strike
2: Battle Leader's Charge, Emerald Razor
3: Iron Heart Surge

Manuevers Readied: 4


[B]Stances Known[/B]
1: Punishing Stance, Stance of Clarity



[B]Equipment:                    Cost  Weight[/B]
+1 Spear                    2302gp     6lb
Mithral Breastplate         4200gp    15lb

Amulet of Health +2         4000gp     -lb
Ring of Protection +1       2000gp     -lb
Cloak of Resistance +1      1000gp     1lb
Circlet of Persuasion       4500gp     -lb

Wand of Cure Light Wounds    750gp     -lb

Belt Pouch (2)                 2gp     1lb
Rope, Silk (50')              10gp     5lb
Waterskin                      1gp     4lb
              

                    Total  18875

[B]Total Weight:[/B] 31lb / 58lb light load
[B]Money:[/B] 125gp 0sp 0cp
```
[/sblock]
[sblock=Background]My earliest memories are of flying, the wind in my hair and the bright, clear skies surrounding me.  It was a simple life.  I was raise by the man I called father, if I ever had a mother I knew her not.  We lived in a tower that rose high into the skies, far above the clouds.  In fact I would not see the ground until I was much older.  I spent my youth in a carefree manner, stretching my wings and playing with sprites and air spirits among the clouds.  I had few limits to my existance, my father allowed me to fly wherever I wished, as long as I returned to him in the tower at night.  His only caution was to never fly too high.

For many years, I obeyed my one injunction without question.  But as I grew older, I began to wonder why it was that I must not rise and see what lay above us.  My father told me that the gods dwelt in the heavens above and that it was not my place to join them.  But I was a brash, and proud youth.  I believed that my father was wrong, and that no ill would befall me if I were to fly so close to the sun.  His fears were not my fears.  And so, one day I decided that I would go for myself and see what lay in the heavens above us.  I flew, and I rose higher and higher into the sky.  I pushed myself, further and faster than I had ever flown before.  I longed to break through, but I could not reach the heavens, I merely flew higher endlessly into the skies.  I felt myself becoming weak, but I knew that if I gave up now, I would never succeed.  Just a little higher, and I would arrive, just a little further.  Nothing would bar my path, I was Icarus, and I would fly where my father never dared.  Higher . . . higher. . . my breath grew short, and ice rimed my wings, but I kept going until I could go no further.  I had been prideful, and held myself on a level with the gods.  And they had punished me, my will was gone, as had my strength.  I closed my eyes as consciousness left me.  And then I fell.

A long darkness lies in my memories, and I knew nothing for what seemed like an eternity.  Eventually the wind whipping against me roused me from the darkness and I was able to see once more.  But below me lay a sight as I had never seen before.  A great blanket of browns and greens and blues.  The clouds, the bottom of my realm lay above, far above.  I had fallen through them, to whatever lay below.  I barely managed to recover myself as I fell and I touched down to earth, solid ground for the first time.  I had fallen so low, after striving to go too high.  I immediately attempted to ascend above the clouds, but now I found that even that previously acheivable height was beyond me.  Exhausted, I returned to the earth.  How could I return to my father?  I cursed myself for not heeding his warnings, and I railed against my fate.  But nothing changed what had happened.  Eventually, I fell into a slumber, exhausted and weeping.

When I awoke, I set about exploring the strange new world I had discovered, this earth.  As I wandered close to the point where I had landed, I heard voices, and the ringing of metal.  I moved towards the sounds and came upon a strange building, in the middle of the wilderness.  I saw men there, like myself, but bound to the earth.  They were practicing combat, a great flurry of metal and shouts.  I sat and I watched them as the flew through the air without wings and performed amazing feats that I could barely witness, let alone duplicate.  And then I understood my fate.  I had been punished for my pride.  If I were to return to my home, I must earn the honor, and once more acheive the glory that I had previously been gifted with.  If these wingless men could become so great, imagine the glory that would be mine if I were to learn their secrets and join them with my own perfection.  Then I would be worthy to ascend into the skies once more.

I went to them then, and humbly asked to join their ranks, and to learn from them.  They accepted me, and I began my training.  It has not been an easy path to travel, but I no that all hardships I endure will be worth the glory that they will win me.  I shall rise above them.[/sblock]


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## Voidrazor (Oct 3, 2006)

Here's my character so far.


```
Archimedes LE Male Human Half Minotaur Crusader 4 / Fighter 1 / Warblade 1

Str 21 [+5] (16 base +4 Racial +1 Level)
Dex 20 [+5] (18 base +2 Enhancement)
Con 16 [+3] (14 base +2 Racial)
Int 14 [+2] (16 base -2 Racial)
Wis 12 [+1] (10 base +2 Racial)
Cha  8 [-1] (8 base)

AC 21 (10 base +4 armor +5 dex +2 natural) (-2 until opponent defeated if more than 1)
HP 75
BAB +6
Attack +12 (2d6+8 spiked chain) (+4 trip +4 AoO +2/+2 if Arch and target touching ground)
Full Attack +12/7 (2d6+8 spiked chain)
Ranged +11 (2d6+5 comp. longbow)

Feats 
Flaw: Shaky / or, if allowed [url=http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Implacable,all]Implacable[/url]
Flaw: Vulnerable / or, if allowed [url=http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Glory-Hound,all]Glory Hound[/url]
1st EWP: Spiked Chain
1st Power Attack (human)
1st Combat Reflexes (flaw)
1st Deft Opportunist (flaw)
3rd Combat Expertise
4th Improved Trip (fighter bonus)
6th Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades

Manuevers
Crusader - Crusader's Strike, Vanguard Strike, Stone Bones, Leading the Attack, Foehammer, Defensive Rebuke
Warblade - Steel Wind, Wall of Blades, Rabid Wolf Strike

Stances
Crusader - Iron Guard's Glare, Martial Spirit, Thicket of Blades
Warblade - Punishing Stance

Items
gloves of dexterity +2 4,000
large mithril chain shirt 2,200
large +1 earthbound spiked chain 8,650
15 Potions of Enlarge Person
large composite Longbow
100 arrows
```

Born in the slave pits of Gaathos, the bestial child that would later be known as Archimedes never saw his parents. Instead he was raised under the lash to work the mines. But when he showed promise in the gladitorial game circuit, he was auctioned off. The high bidder was the master of the Temple of the Nine Swords, who saw the half-monitaur's untrained prowess and knew that he could be taught to be a great warrior. His new master treated him as a student rather than a slave. But Archimedes could not unlearn the harsh lessons of his childhood. The weak were inferior, and it was the way of the warrior that the strong should dominate. Even the master himself seemed a bit 'soft', though the ancient's abilities were beyond question. So Archimedes was greatly pleased when it was announced that he should go forth with the other disciples and unify the nine schools, for only through conquest could greatness be achieved.


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## gabrion (Oct 3, 2006)

@halfrogman-Nice so far, but I have a question.  If you plan to stick with Bloodstorm Blade (at least for one more level) is there a reason why he's Dex based rather than Str based?  If it's thematic that's cool, but it seems like a higher Str would serve him better in the long run (or even the immediate future).

@Voidrazor-Archimedes looks pretty cool, but I should warn you about being evil.  I have nothing against it, but you should know two things:
1) Most of the people at the Temple of Nine Swords are neutral or good aligned, so there may be some tension there.  It looks like you've already captured this a bit in your background though.
2) More importantly, I won't put up with evil characters not getting along with the party.  I wouldn't necessarily expect this (especially with LE rather than CE), but this is fair warning.


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## Voidrazor (Oct 3, 2006)

Shouldn't be a problem, assuming nobody's planning on taking paladin levels. I'd like to create some dramatic tension, but not disrupt the party. Arch as LE would be completely dedicated to the cause, but would have a badass attitude and a rather dark opinion as to how most NPC's should be treated. I'd be happy to specify that he's perma-charmed, if you think that would be necessary to keep him manageable. As a fall back I could co LN but I'd rather not if it isn't absolutely necessary.


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## hafrogman (Oct 3, 2006)

gabrion said:
			
		

> @hafrogman-Nice so far, but I have a question.  If you plan to stick with Bloodstorm Blade (at least for one more level) is there a reason why he's Dex based rather than Str based?  If it's thematic that's cool, but it seems like a higher Str would serve him better in the long run (or even the immediate future).




The dex priority is for various reasons, some thematic.

1) The winged template bases maneuverability on dex.  17+ needed for perfect.  I like to not have to worry about it.

2) This point doesn't apply any more.  I thought that one was limited to light armor for flying, but looking over the SRD it specifically mentions load only, not armor encumberance class.  Light armor would imply a better dex for defence.

Hmm, now I have to think about it more.


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## gabrion (Oct 3, 2006)

hafrogman said:
			
		

> The dex priority is for various reasons, some thematic.
> 
> 1) The winged template bases maneuverability on dex.  17+ needed for perfect.  I like to not have to worry about it.
> 
> ...




That's alll good and well, but probably what's even more strange is INT being prioritized over STR.  It seems like you've purchased a lot of unnecessary cc skills.  Are they going to qualify you for a PrC or something?  If not, I would be inclined to prioritize those stats as STR->DEX->INT.  If you start with DEX 16 and add +1 at 4th level, you'll have the 17+ needed for perfect maneuverability.  Anyway, these are just my thoughts.


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## Azaar (Oct 3, 2006)

Right now, stat prioritizing is my problem as well.  STR is my dump stat right now, because melee isn't where I want to be.  INT is currently my top (although that'll likely change to being the 14 in favor of CHA, since CHA governs extra warmage spells), with DEX and WIS holding the 16s and CON currently the 14 (although if I switch around with INT and CHA like I mentioned above, CON will likely drop to being a 10).

What really bites is that there isn't much of a way to boost my stats without blowing a sizable chunk of my starting gold.  I also have the 4th level attribute point to consider as well -- or is that being considered part of the 18, 16, 16, 14, 10, 8 stat set?  Pity the Belt of Magnificience from the Miniatures Handbook is so expensive, 'cause it would be a boon.

It makes me wonder whether I should consider going with some material from the _Book of Exalted Deeds_ and try Sacred Vow/Vow of Poverty...


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## hafrogman (Oct 3, 2006)

Character revised a bit based on comments.

I do like playing intelligent characters, but I ran into the problem that Warblades have no good skills to spend those points one, hence all the cc skills.  I also tried to provide a little healing capability as we have no divine casters.

Also, when I designed the character I didn't have the template bonus, so that's allowed me to shift around a little.


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## gabrion (Oct 12, 2006)

Hey, sorry I've been away for a bit, but I've been dealing with midterms of late.  Things will settle down by this weekend and I'll be able to give everything a good looking over and try to get this game running


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## James Heard (Oct 12, 2006)

Any chance I might still be able to get in on this?


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## James Heard (Oct 16, 2006)

I guess it would help if I had a submission to "get in on it" with:

Farid bin Anwar abu Mikal Al-Hassan
Neutral Good Human Male Swordsage 6

*Age:* 34
*Gender:* Male
*Height:* 5'3
*Weight:* 100 lbs
*Eyes:* A disturbingly yellowish amber in the left, and dark brown in the right
*Hair:* Black and Prematurely Graying
*Skin:* Sunbrowned 

*STR:* 18 [+4] 
*DEX:* 16 [+3]
*CON:* 14 [+2]
*INT:* 10 [+0]
*WIS:* 16 [+3] 
*CHA:* 09 [-1] [+1 Lvl 4]

*Hit Points:* 55
*Armor Class:* 22 (10 base + 3 Dex + 3 Wis + 6 Armor)
*Initiative:* +5 (+3 Dex +2 Quick to Act)
*BAB:* +4
- Melee: +9
  - _+1 Adamantine Scimitar _ +11 to hit 1d6 +9 (+4 Str, +1 Blade Meditation, +3 Insightful Strike +1 Magic) [18-20x2]

- Ranged: +7

*Speed:* 30'

*FORT:* +4 (2 Base +2 Con)
*REFL:* +8 (5 Base + 3 Dex)
*WILL:* +8 (5 Base + 3 Wis)

*Abilities:*
Human Bonus Feat
- 4 extra skill points at 1st level, +1 skill point per additional level
- Favored Class: Any
- Weapon Focus [Desert Wind]
- Insightful Strike [Desert Wind]
- +2 Quick to Act

*Feats:*
- Sudden Recovery
- Desert Fire
- Unnerving Calm
- Blade Meditation [Desert Wind]

*Skills:*
Skill Points at 1st Level: 28 ((6+0 INT) x 4) +35 Swordsage
- Balance (Dex) +12 (9 ranks)
- Concentration (Con) +11 (9 ranks)
- Knowledge (History) (Int) +9 (9 ranks)
- Knowledge (Nobility) (Int) +6 (6 ranks)
- Profession [Sailor] [Wis] +12 [9 ranks]
- Sense Motive (Wis) +6 (3 ranks)
- Tumble (Dex) +14 (9 ranks +2 Blade Meditation)

*Manuevers:* (6 Readied) [Initiator Level 6]
1st
- Burning Blade
- Blistering Flourish _replaced_
- Distracting Ember
- Sapphire Nightmare Blade
- Counter Charge _replaced_
- Shadow Blade Technique
2nd
- Fire Riposte
- Emerald Razor
- Drain Vitality
- Flashing Sun
3rd
- Death Mark
- Fan the Flames
- Zephyr Dance

*Stances*
- Island of Blades
- Step of the Wind
- Holocaust Cloak

*Languages:*
- Common, Ignan, Abyssal, Infernal

*Equipment:*
Melee weapons
- +1 Adamantine Scimitar 5,015 GP 4lbs.

Ranged weapons

*Armor*
- +1 Elven Chain 5,150 GP 20lbs.

*Other equipment*
- Belt of Hidden Pouches 5,000 GP

Total Encumberance: 24lbs. (light load)

*Remaining money:* 3,835 GP 0 SP 0 CP

*Description*
Farid's ruddy appearance belies his more refined nature. His strange, mismatched eyes force are a source of pride for all of House Hassan, and he keeps his long, flowing graying hair up in a long braid woven together with small kerchiefs embroidered with religious and philosphical sayings. Despite his small build and lithe appearance, Farid is built like a coiled snake and not a single ounce of him is wasted on anything as unnecessary as softness. Even the planes of his face are whiplike and angular, and he can often be seen stroking the long waxed points of his moustaches or goatee while pondering some calamity.

*Personality*
Farid is vain, prideful, somewhat socially unaware, a womanizer, a man of sometimes decadent pleasures, and has a tendency to be brutal in his honesty and critiques. He's also loyal, courageous, selfless in battle, and devoted to his causes. He can carry himself with the imperious, stand-offish demeanor that one expects of a prince, but he is also friendly and open when he allows himself to be. Always though, Farid is plotting his advantage, a failing that he notes and worries over to some extent, acknowledging that his attention to the demands of kingship and power might draw him away from a more appealing and enlightened path.


*Background*
Farid is a prince of the House of Hassan, one of the 13 hereditary ruling houses of the Southern Kingdoms. The House of Hassan holds no positions of true power anymore, instead having been pushed by failed alliances, unfavorable battles, shifting interests, and lack of male children into more of the role of a respected and valued noble merchant house. Still, the House Hassan commands respect and obediance in many places in the Southern Kingdoms and their wealth is as legendary as their supposed decadence. 

Farid's life has been dictated by the concerns of his House and of his father. He was married at age 10 to a woman 10 years older than him, had his first born son at 14 and several since. His father called for a veritable army of tutors to his ship when Farid was younger, trying to teach the young man the skills of a merchant prince to no avail. Instead the young Farid skilled himself on walking the long ropes in the rigging, fighting pirates, and learning the whispers of the wind while steering vessels all across The Shallow Sea. 

Eventually, his father determined that if he were to dream and act like the young bravo prince of legend that he must train as one as well. To that end the elder Anwar sent his son far to the north to train at the legendary Temple of Nine Swords, where he has spent the last 12 years mastering his forms and craft. 

Armed with the knowledge and mastery of much of the legendary Desert Wind style, Farid was almost ready to end his time at the temple and seek out his home and his son, who is now nearly the age that Farid was when he was sent off to study at the Temple. Instead, he has discovered, he must take the time to act as a warrior prince now in fact, to save a kingdom, to unite an ancient knowledge lost, and protect the art of the Nine Swords.

***​
I have no clue what advantage Farid could have. Basically I read the stuff for Desert Wind and decided that I really wanted to something very Al Qadim with a character. Once I saw the black and white illustration by Steve Prescott (I think thats the correct signature), it was clear what flavor of scimitar wielder I'd have.


----------

