# UA Monks Introduces the Kensai and Tranquility Traditions



## kbrakke (Dec 12, 2016)

WotC's Mike Mearls and Jeremy Crawford have posted the latest Unearthed Arcana column, this time introducing the Kensai and Tranquility traditions. The Kensei trains relentlessly with their weapon to create art out of combat; the Tranquility tradition seeks peace and mercy over violence.


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## CapnZapp (Dec 12, 2016)

Sacrosanct said:


> I hate d4s



View attachment 79097


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## UnknownDyson (Dec 12, 2016)

Monk is my favorite class, but this was my least favorite UA. I like the idea of a kensei but I feel like it's missing that quintessential lvl 17 monk ability. Way of tranquility was pretty bland except for the level 17 ability which is amazing. I'm imagining Toki from Fist of the Northstar as a Way of Tranquility monk.


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## lowkey13 (Dec 12, 2016)

*Deleted by user*


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## ad_hoc (Dec 12, 2016)

_Kensai:_ This is fine I suppose, maybe overpowered. It's not interesting to me because there isn't narrative power to it. It's just a Monk with a weapon. As is it is better than the Open Hand.

At level 5 you can attack for 2d6+4, 1d6+4, 1d6+4, and get +2 AC all for no Ki cost. That's pretty good.

_Tranquility:_ I like the idea but it needs more. A Monk with disarm, shove, grappling, and other non-damaging incapacitating powers would have been cool. For example, they could have a power to attempt to disarm (while taking the weapon) in the place of an attack. They could also have a power to attempt to shove an opponent as a reaction to their opponent missing them with an attack, and if successful it ends their opponent's turn (Judo inspired).


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## Satyrn (Dec 12, 2016)

They both just feel so boring, uninspiring.


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## Lucas Blackstone (Dec 12, 2016)

Personally I don't mind if the Monk gets a better healing pool then the Paladin. Paladins have a bunch of spells to back up their healing.

Overall I like these two variants.


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## Dkamanus (Dec 12, 2016)

ad_hoc said:


> _Kensai:_ This is fine I suppose, maybe overpowered. It's not interesting to me because there isn't narrative power to it. It's just a Monk with a weapon. As is it is better than the Open Hand.
> 
> At level 5 you can attack for 2d6+4, 1d6+4, 1d6+4, and get +2 AC all for no Ki cost. That's pretty good.
> 
> _Tranquility:_ I like the idea but it needs more. A Monk with disarm, shove, grappling, and other non-damaging incapacitating powers would have been cool. For example, they could have a power to attempt to disarm (while taking the weapon) in the place of an attack. They could also have a power to attempt to shove an opponent as a reaction to their opponent missing them with an attack, and if successful it ends their opponent's turn (Judo inspired).




That is actually VERY good. Giving more incapacitating moves, dodges and heals is what would make this monk perfect.

Edit.: Re-reading the Kensei, holy , dual handed 1d10 long sword + 2 CA after the first unarmed attack. 

Seems like the best UA for me, so far.


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## Sacrosanct (Dec 12, 2016)

Another thing that sits weird with me is precise strike.  IME playing monks (one of my favorite classes), is that you're pretty much doing a bonus action every turn.  Moreso than probably any other class.  So many monk abilities are tied to bonus actions.

So giving up an extra attack, dodge, or movement to get double prof on one hit that can only be used once per short/long rest?  Kinda meh to me, to be honest.  Hitting monsters isn't too terribly hard, so what's the math trade off between attacking twice at normal prof bonus, or attacking only once with double prof bonus?


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## TwoSix (Dec 12, 2016)

Sacrosanct said:


> The Kensei was pretty much exactly how I expected/wanted it to be.  With the exception of the bludgeoning damage.  A d4 that doesn't scale?  I hate d4s, and especially at higher levels it's hardly worth anything.  Especially since as a monk, I could just use my bonus action to make an unarmed attack and use monk damage dice for that.



The d4 is mostly there so it keeps pace with a standard monk attack progression at low levels.  If you use a quarterstaff for your Attack and unarmed strike for bonus action, you'll do 1d8+1d4+6 (assuming 16 Dex for a low level monk).  Kensei using a greatsword will do 2d6+1d4+3, which is pretty much identical.  (13 avg versus 12.5).  Where kensei pulls ahead is when you use flurry of blows, since that damage is identical [2x(1d4+dex)] whether you use a kensei weapon or a martial weapon.  The other benefit is being able to mix in the shield bonus (the +2 AC bonus) when needed, without a real drop off in your offensive output.  Mixing in a unarmed strike with a weapon attack post level 5 to boost AC is pretty phenomenal, especially since (I think) you can use a full unarmed strike as a BA as long as you make at least Unarmed Strike as part of the Attack action.

All told, I'm pretty impressed with Kensei.  Not better than Open Hand, but comparable, and the aesthetics of a monk using a greatsword is just fantastic.  I have a new front runner for my next character.


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## hejtmane (Dec 12, 2016)

Kensai fits with what I want to build character concept wise but it would be a multi class build with fighter. At quick glance the build would probably be at least 11 fighter/6 monk but man that so fits a concept. Kensai Battle Master Multiclass yea may have to introduce him as an npc for play testing in our next session in a couple weeks


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## Koren n'Rhys (Dec 12, 2016)

ad_hoc said:


> _Kensai:_ This is fine I suppose, maybe overpowered. It's not interesting to me because there isn't narrative power to it. It's just a Monk with a weapon. As is it is better than the Open Hand.
> 
> At level 5 you can attack for 2d6+4, 1d6+4, 1d6+4, and get +2 AC all for no Ki cost. That's pretty good.
> 
> _Tranquility:_ I like the idea but it needs more. A Monk with disarm, shove, grappling, and other non-damaging incapacitating powers would have been cool. For example, they could have a power to attempt to disarm (while taking the weapon) in the place of an attack. They could also have a power to attempt to shove an opponent as a reaction to their opponent missing them with an attack, and if successful it ends their opponent's turn (Judo inspired).



So much this.  A grapple/control based monk would be cool - judo/aikido inspired rather than kung-fu.


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## lkj (Dec 12, 2016)

lowkey13 said:


> That's the part I agree with. I think that's good.
> 
> As for the specific examples? Meh. My earlier thesis was that this would be difficult because Monk was an example of a class they have already done very well. So what did they do?
> 
> ...





In fairness, the existing monk is already designed to use weapons. And there is a clear archetype of the kensai as a mystical martial artist with intense focus on weapon fighting. And it's a concept that I think fits better with ki than superiority dice, at least conceptually.

I'm not arguing they couldn't do it through the fighter chasis. I'm justing saying I can see why they placed it with the monk.

AD


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## TwoSix (Dec 12, 2016)

Sacrosanct said:


> Another thing that sits weird with me is precise strike.  IME playing monks (one of my favorite classes), is that you're pretty much doing a bonus action every turn.  Moreso than probably any other class.  So many monk abilities are tied to bonus actions.
> 
> So giving up an extra attack, dodge, or movement to get double prof on one hit that can only be used once per short/long rest?  Kinda meh to me, to be honest.  Hitting monsters isn't too terribly hard, so what's the math trade off between attacking twice at normal prof bonus, or attacking only once with double prof bonus?



Yea, it's kind of blah.  It might be ok at higher levels, especially if you're using Great Weapon Master.  I think at single digit levels it's weak, though.


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## Sacrosanct (Dec 12, 2016)

TwoSix said:


> The d4 is mostly there so it keeps pace with a standard monk attack progression at low levels.  If you use a quarterstaff for your Attack and unarmed strike for bonus action, you'll do 1d8+1d4+6 (assuming 16 Dex for a low level monk).  Kensei using a greatsword will do 2d6+1d4+3, which is pretty much identical.  (13 avg versus 12.5).  Where kensei pulls ahead is when you use flurry of blows, since that damage is identical [2x(1d4+dex)] whether you use a kensei weapon or a martial weapon.  The other benefit is being able to mix in the shield bonus (the +2 AC bonus) when needed, without a real drop off in your offensive output.  Mixing in a unarmed strike with a weapon attack post level 5 to boost AC is pretty phenomenal, especially since (I think) you can use a full unarmed strike as a BA as long as you make at least Unarmed Strike as part of the Attack action.
> 
> All told, I'm pretty impressed with Kensei.  Not better than Open Hand, but comparable, and the aesthetics of a monk using a greatsword is just fantastic.  I have a new front runner for my next character.





The bonus action to pummel for d4 doesn't scale though.  So the minute your base martial arts damage goes to d6, this ability is neutered.  Why would you spend a bonus action for d4 damage when you could spend a bonus action on an unarmed attack for d6, d8, and then d10 damage?  I guess it gives you another opportunity for stunning strike, and an additional attack roll isn't need.  

But gawd, d4s?  I don't care if mechanically it's better, I loathe d4s lol


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## Dkamanus (Dec 12, 2016)

Sacrosanct said:


> The bonus action to pummel for d4 doesn't scale though.  So the minute your base martial arts damage goes to d6, this ability is neutered.  Why would you spend a bonus action for d4 damage when you could spend a bonus action on an unarmed attack for d6, d8, and then d10 damage?  I guess it gives you another opportunity for stunning strike, and an additional attack roll isn't need.
> 
> But gawd, d4s?  I don't care if mechanically it's better, I loathe d4s lol




Because at level 11, those pummels might do +3 attack and +3 damage also. Considering the Kensei is focusing his ki on making the best of those 3 ki points to cast Sharpen the blade, I think it's a good attack to use after it, or when having just 1 Ki.


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## Kobold Avenger (Dec 12, 2016)

I really wanted them to tweak the Way of the Elements, or bring back the Tattooed Monk or the Sacred Fist...

Anyways with the Kensai I feel there's the odd usage of switching attack types, just to get that AC bonus.  That extra 1d4 damage as a bonus action thing I feel is odd, though weirdly not likely to be used by a bow wielding Kensai to clobber someone since ranged attacks in melee get disadvantage.  Precise Strike I'm not a fan of a bonus action for super accuracy, and while Unerring Accuracy is good, it's doesn't feel too interesting.

The Way of Tranquility while it's a good concept, I doubt too many players would pick such a Monk, even if it certainly works with the Buddhist virtue of non-violence.  I do like that it gets healing hands, since a non-violent character is going to be doing a lot of support in an adventurer party.


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## bganon (Dec 12, 2016)

Also, for a Fighter 11/Kensei 3 that pummel might apply to three targets if you hit them all with your Attack action.  So then it's 3d4+(3*magic bonus) damage.

Still not sure it's worth it, really, but it does scale with Extra Attack.


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## gweinel (Dec 12, 2016)

It is the first UA of this class series that actually like it. 
Kensei seems strong enough and Tranquility Monk seems pretty interesting. I loved the 8hour sanctuary preaching in the midst of the battle and healing here and there. Maybe not something i would play as a player, but i am surely use it as an NPC.


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## Ansel Darach (Dec 12, 2016)

Hello everybody, i guess this UA got me to post so thats kinda neat I guess.
 @_*Sacrosanct*_, Kensai weapons are not always going to be monk weapons so you will not always get the martial arts bonus action attack and that is why they get the extra 1d4 damage as a bonus action. (forgot to add that i also do not like d4s)

So when attacking with a greatsword its a kensai weapon and not a monk weapon so no martial arts to get the bonus action unarmed attack.  Shortswords are another thing though since they are both a monk weapon and a kensai weapon.

Also kensai abilities work with martial weapons so a longbow would work for this as well, and a player would also be able to "pummel" their foe from far far away for the additional 1d4 as that only specifies that you need to hit with your martial weapon.


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## TwoSix (Dec 12, 2016)

Sacrosanct said:


> The bonus action to pummel for d4 doesn't scale though.  So the minute your base martial arts damage goes to d6, this ability is neutered.  Why would you spend a bonus action for d4 damage when you could spend a bonus action on an unarmed attack for d6, d8, and then d10 damage?  I guess it gives you another opportunity for stunning strike, and an additional attack roll isn't need.
> 
> But gawd, d4s?  I don't care if mechanically it's better, I loathe d4s lol



True, it doesn't scale, which is why I said it's mostly for low levels.  Higher level kenseis will probably be mixing unarmed strikes with weapon attacks to generate the AC bonus.  That being said, it is an autohit d4 on every target you hit with your weapon.  If you hit two targets with your greatsword, doing an auto d4 to both is pretty competitive with a d6+4 with a miss chance.


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## Edwin Suijkerbuijk (Dec 12, 2016)

If I would play a Path of Tranquility monk the Healing Hands touch might involve acupuncture needles


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## Leatherhead (Dec 12, 2016)

Hold on, pummel works with bows, and has no melee tag?


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## Patrick McGill (Dec 12, 2016)

Leatherhead said:


> Hold on, pummel works with bows, and has no melee tag?




Fist shaped arrows, for when someone needs punched over there.


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## Kobold Avenger (Dec 12, 2016)

Ansel Darach said:


> Also kensai abilities work with martial weapons so a longbow would work for this as well, and a player would also be able to "pummel" their foe from far far away for the additional 1d4 as that only specifies that you need to hit with your martial weapon.



It never occurred to me that they could pummel someone from far away, as the description doesn't even specify that it had to be a melee attack, even though they used the word "pummel"...


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## Lackhand (Dec 12, 2016)

I really like the paciFIST. Its souped-up lay on hands might be too good, but it certainly makes a statement, and I like the direction it's heading.

The kensei, though... I definitely want what it's dishing up, I just don't like the way it's phrased. I would rather allow martial weapons as monk weapons. We can already use greatclubs as monk weapons, so going from 1d10 to 2d6 damage dice doesn't worry me too much from a balance point of view. I don't like the finicky "make an unarmed strike as part of your action for +2 AC", because it encourages the monk with multiattack to make different sorts of attacks, blech yuck. Much better to me would be "when you make an attack and are entitled to two attacks, you can make a special attack which consumes them both. This either deals 1d4 extra damage or gives you a +2 AC". Since I want the main weapon to be a monk weapon, this leaves martial arts/flurry of blows on the table, and that secondary action ALREADY has special rules which forces it to be a different attack than this mechanism.

I second the desire for a tattooed monk. I think Way of 4 Elements is a pretty good proxy for a tattooed monk (since it's a straightforward "pick a spell at every archetype feature level; cast them for 1+1 ki point per spell level"), but because I want a fix for Wo4E, I want a fix for my Tattooed Monk hack


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## ad_hoc (Dec 12, 2016)

Path of Tranquility rework - Allow shove, grapple, and disarm attempts while under sanctuary spell. Replace Healing Hands with grapple and shove abilities. The other abilities are unchanged.

Path of Tranquility:
When you choose this tradition at 3rd level, you can become an island of calm in even the most chaotic of situations. With this feature, you can cast the sanctuary spell on yourself, no material component required, it lasts up to 8 hours, and does not end if you make a grapple, shove, or disarm attempt. Its saving throw DC equals 8+ your proficiency bonus + your Wisdom modifier. A creature that succeeds on the save is immune to this effect for 1 hour.
Once you cast the spell in this way, you can’t do so again for 1 minute.

Non-Violent Opposition
You have learned how to subdue an opponent without causing injury. When you attempt to grapple or shove a creature you may make a Dexterity (Acrobatics) check instead of a Strength (Athletics) check. In addition, if you make a successful Disarm attempt and you have at least one free hand, you may choose to catch the weapon. 
When an opponent misses you with a melee attack, you may spend 1 Ki and use a reaction to make a shove attempt with advantage against that creature. If successful, you may push the creature up to 15 feet in any direction after which they fall prone and their turn immediately ends.


What do you think? My guess is that it is either good enough or could use one more minor ability.


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## Kobold Avenger (Dec 12, 2016)

Patrick McGill said:


> Fist shaped arrows, for when someone needs punched over there.



The idea that Kensai abilties could be used with bows already made me think of the Green Arrow...  Though I was thinking more of the TV series and how a lot of people get whacked in the face with a bow all the time.


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## Jester David (Dec 12, 2016)

The kensei as a Strength based archer is weird...

But I love how the managed to fold the zen archer into the weapon using monk.


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## Elderbrain (Dec 12, 2016)

This makes me wonder if we're going to be seeing the other Oriental Adventures classes done up as Archtypes in coming weeks (i.e. Sohei, Yakuza, etc.)


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## MechaTarrasque (Dec 12, 2016)

ad_hoc said:


> _Kensai:_ This is fine I suppose, maybe overpowered. It's not interesting to me because there isn't narrative power to it. It's just a Monk with a weapon. As is it is better than the Open Hand.
> 
> At level 5 you can attack for 2d6+4, 1d6+4, 1d6+4, and get +2 AC all for no Ki cost. That's pretty good.
> 
> _Tranquility:_ I like the idea but it needs more. A Monk with disarm, shove, grappling, and other non-damaging incapacitating powers would have been cool. For example, they could have a power to attempt to disarm (while taking the weapon) in the place of an attack. They could also have a power to attempt to shove an opponent as a reaction to their opponent missing them with an attack, and if successful it ends their opponent's turn (Judo inspired).




Count in me in the group that likes that tranquility idea.


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## Edwin Suijkerbuijk (Dec 12, 2016)

I find this wording in the kensai a bit strange.

dealing an additional 1d4 bludgeoning damage to that target *and to any other target you hit with the weapon as part of the Attack*.

But you don't have abilities that allouw you to damage more then 1 target with a attack, almost making me wonder if  it should be attack action instead of just atack at the end of that scentence.


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## Fritzo (Dec 12, 2016)

for Douse the Flames of War they should remove the bolded.


> This effect ends if the target is attacked, takes damage, or is forced to make a saving throw* or if the target witnesses any of those things happening to its allies*



because it's too situational with the above line.

I need to look deeper at the Way of the Kensei. But i don't think it should get the pummel ability. Considering the potential benefits of using a martial weapon with reach or a larger damage die. It shouldn't get free bonus action damage on top of that. I would still consider flurry of blows to be fine though, considering it costs ki.

For the above to make sense you need to realise that the martial weapons count as kensei weapons but not as monk weapons. This is important since it won't allow you to make an unarmed attack as a bonus action using martial arts.


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## smbakeresq (Dec 12, 2016)

The problem with the Kensai is it consumes the bonus action for not enough in return.  With Open Hand you will be doing more damage and tacking a prone, push, or killing their reactions in addition to the damage.  This doesn't even count that the prone from Open Hand could lead to a whole series of attacks with advantage, or the shove could just eliminate them (off the cliff, or into the lava, etc.)

To me the Open Hand monk has the best and easiest suite of uses for bonus actions in the game.  Anything that changes the monk has to be compared to the ease of use of the Open Hand bonus effects.


The Kensai path feature is worse than Polearm master feat as that give a bonus attack with full modifiers that includes the chance of a critical hit.  This is just bonus damage.  It should give you something better as it is the defining and starting feature of the path.


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## lonelynoose (Dec 12, 2016)

*only on attack*



ad_hoc said:


> Path of Tranquility rework - Allow shove, grapple, and disarm attempts while under sanctuary spell. Replace Healing Hands with grapple and shove abilities. The other abilities are unchanged.
> 
> Path of Tranquility:
> When you choose this tradition at 3rd level, you can become an island of calm in even the most chaotic of situations. With this feature, you can cast the sanctuary spell on yourself, no material component required, it lasts up to 8 hours, and does not end if you make a grapple, shove, or disarm attempt. It's saving throw DC equals 8+ your proficiency bonus + your Wisdom modifier. A creature that succeeds on the save is immune to this effect for 1 hour.
> ...


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## Chaosmancer (Dec 12, 2016)

I've been wanting a Kensei since the playtest of 5th edition. Yet I find myself completely unimpressed. 

First of all, being able to use any weapon as a dexterity weapon may be too powerful, but part of the problem is the new terminology. 

This martial weapon is a Kensei Weapon, not a monk weapon, does this mean you don't get any of the benefits of Martial Arts while wielding it? If it does, then all of your unarmed strike abilities are worthless, because you are hitting with str+mod and 1 damage.

If the Kensei Weapon is a monk weapon, then pummel is nearly useless, as it is only +1d4 damage, unmodified by anything. The only advantage of it is using your bonus action to automatically hit, but by higher levels you could be hitting for 1d8+5 instead of a flat 1d4. 

If it isn't a Monk Weapon, then it also makes the ability to get +2 AC nearly worhtless, because again, attacking with unarmed strikes is a very bad idea when you lose all your normal bonuses. 


So, the advantage is getting a 1d10 polearm or one of the heavy weapons like the greataxe and using them with Finesse as a monk. After all, the staff already did 1d8, so you need to be looking for a 1d10 or higher weapon die to increase your damage. 

Then Precise Strike is... not useless, but really uninspiring to me. A +3 to +6 to hit with 1 attack, at the cost of your bonus action, when your bonus action is so vital to the monk's flexibility. It just feels like too little, and the magic weapons a fist monk already has.

Sharpen Blade is very nice, getting you a solid benefit for a chunk of ki, and Unerring Accuracy isn't bad, but they come a bit late to make this feel like a good sub-class. 

Actually, Sharpen Blade is really good, on a second reading. You can "bless" any weapon, even a magical one. So if you are wielding a magic sword you can make it an even better magical sword. 

Overall though, it doesn't seem to work for me.


Tranquility is amazing though. 

You start by getting a long term, almost at will Sanctuary spell and a massive pool of healing. I get that it is double the Paladin Lay on Hands, but Paladins are definetly more damage oriented and have other spells on top of their smites, so I'm okay with this being a larger pool. And you can use it as part of your Flurry of Blows giving you even more options.

Emissary and Douses are great for roleplaying peaceful meetings, and make it easier for hot-headed enemies to sit and talk with you. There are a lot of limits on Douses, but it is a cool, if niche, ability 

Anger of a Gentle Soul is crazy good. By this level most monks can easily make 4 attacks a round, making this an additional 68 damage against a tough foe. Of course, to pull that off you have to choose not to heal the ally, so it will generally be 3 attacks and a use of Healing hands. 


Yeah, I really Like tranquility. It is very difficult to play a pacificist character in D&D, but this character isn't penalized for fighting. They just are much better at negotiating peace. I think it is a really solid design


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## Fritzo (Dec 12, 2016)

What's the RAW on shove and grapple? are they considered attacks that would end the sanctuary spell?


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## Shroomy (Dec 12, 2016)

Fritzo said:


> What's the RAW on shove and grapple? are they considered attacks that would end the sanctuary spell?




Both are considered attacks.


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## cbwjm (Dec 12, 2016)

I do like how they have merged the kensei and way of the bow style monks into the kensei class. Choose longbow and a couple of melee weapons and you're good to go.

Tranquillity monk I think could be interesting.


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## kalani (Dec 12, 2016)

TBH, I prefer the Kensei/Sohei homebrew I created in 2014 (and later ported to EnWorld in 2015).


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## phantomK9 (Dec 12, 2016)

I agree with a lot of people who are saying the Tranquility Monk should get something more along the lines of nonviolent (or less violent) martial arts options.


I think they should get an ability at 3rd level (or maybe later) that says.

"You can take the Dodge, Disarm, Shove, or Grapple actions as bonus actions."

Maybe only limit those to just three different actions. Rogue already gets the Cunning Action ability at 2nd level which allows the choice of Dash, Disengage, or Hide as a bonus action, so allowing the Monk to do the "nonviolent" martial arts options as bonus actions at 3rd level really doesn't seem over powered. Especially since they have to put a premium on their bonus actions.


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## hejtmane (Dec 12, 2016)

Koren n'Rhys said:


> So much this.  A grapple/control based monk would be cool - judo/aikido inspired rather than kung-fu.




As long as we get a  Koshinage throw


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## Ovarwa (Dec 12, 2016)

If I'm reading this right, Kensai's bonus action pummel is 1d4 free damage, not an additional attack.


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## Mercule (Dec 12, 2016)

Hmm.... I don't have many thoughts on Tranquility -- I've played pacifists, had pacifists played in my games, and seen another half-dozen ways of doing them. My experience is that it depends more on the player's style than the mechanics as to whether the character feels like a pacifist and that any build intended to be a pacifist, even pacifist-lite, is going to be role-play balanced and open to abuse if that's not enforced/considered. This build looks acceptable, overall, but it doesn't excite me. (I.e. if other folks like it, I have no objections.)

My first read-through of the Kensai, on the other hand, made me want to play one. That d4 pummel is wonky and kinda WTF. I also didn't catch that a "Kensai weapon" only damages as a Monk weapon, but isn't actually a Monk weapon. I don't think I actually like the differentiation. It just feels wrong. Without the _flurry of blows_, it just seems tacked onto Monk instead of being integral.

As far using the Monk chassis vs, say, Fighter, it's mostly flavor and about the mythology around the character. The Fighter makes a good base for any archetype that might be considered a soldier, knight, or other "standard" warrior who wouldn't be completely out of place in the military -- even if just being press-ganged. On the other hand, the Monk is more of an aesthetic; they fold some form of contemplative focus into their art. A Kensai may be equal to a Samurai in skill with a blade. Both may say the blade becomes an extension of themselves. The Fighter is all about what the technique does to the other guy. The Monk is about what the technique does to/through themselves. At the end of the day, the bad guy is equally dead. It's the road that's different. Hopefully, the choice of which class facilitates the flavor the player is looking for.

There's a balance. Towards one end of the spectrum you have the trio of combat guy/skill monkey/spell caster. Towards the other end, you have new classes for swashbuckler, assassin, man-at-arms, and chevalier as well as each wizard school, etc. I think the 12-16 range is ideal, with some mild Venn diagram overlapping being permissible.


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## Spinwheel (Dec 12, 2016)

Chaosmancer said:


> This martial weapon is a Kensei Weapon, not a monk weapon, does this mean you don't get any of the benefits of Martial Arts while wielding it? If it does, then all of your unarmed strike abilities are worthless, because you are hitting with str+mod and 1 damage.




Bingo, this would also make your flurry of blows worthless as they would be 1+str mod as well. I asked Crawford on twitter but he refused to clarify and gave some vague response about not wanting to influence feedback.


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## lkj (Dec 12, 2016)

From Mearls:

Asked about a grappling monk, replied:

 "couldn't get it done in time. Still in the queue..."


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## Sacrosanct (Dec 12, 2016)

Ovarwa said:


> If I'm reading this right, Kensai's bonus action pummel is 1d4 free damage, not an additional attack.




Correct.  But my beef is that monks use bonus actions about every round.  Taking away a bonus action that would normally be an unarmed attack, dodge, or move further to get that extra d4, I'm not sure is really worth it, imo.

And cuz d4s...


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## Blue (Dec 12, 2016)

About the Kensai I think people are mis-evaluating the d4.  It doesn't have to be *A* d4.  It's a d4 to every creature you hit during the attack action.  Could be 2 creatures fairly easily.  Wish the ranger's whirlwind attack was an Attack action.  Also there is no additional to-hit roll required, it's guaranteed damage.  

Yeah, it' still a freakin' d4, but it's not as bad as people make it out to be.


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## cbwjm (Dec 12, 2016)

Edwin Suijkerbuijk said:


> I find this wording in the kensai a bit strange.
> 
> dealing an additional 1d4 bludgeoning damage to that target *and to any other target you hit with the weapon as part of the Attack*.
> 
> But you don't have abilities that allouw you to damage more then 1 target with a attack, almost making me wonder if  it should be attack action instead of just atack at the end of that scentence.



Maybe this was meant to be Attack action. So if you hit someone they take d4 additional damage. Hit another and they both take an additional d4 damage.


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## BookBarbarian (Dec 12, 2016)

On the Kensei:

What I like: Kensei lets me play a both the Greatsword monk and the Longbow monk. I could even be a 1d12 longsword monk. That has some appeal to me.
What I don't like: Kensei weapons not being monk weapons, I shouldn't lose access to all the monk goodies that require me to not be wielding a non monk weapon to be able to use my Kensei weapon. It trades to much of the base class features to use the subclass features. I don't want to juggle weapons.

On the Tranquility monk:

I think it looks interesting. No complaints.


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## Ovarwa (Dec 12, 2016)

Sacrosanct said:


> Correct.  But my beef is that monks use bonus actions about every round.  Taking away a bonus action that would normally be an unarmed attack, dodge, or move further to get that extra d4, I'm not sure is really worth it, imo.  And cuz d4s...



  Oh, it's usually very much not worth it.  +2.5 damage per target?  Meh.  Since it isn't an attack, weapon bonus doesn't add either.


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## bganon (Dec 12, 2016)

Yeah, on further reading the Kensei depends critically on how you interpret the Martial Arts requirement to be "unarmed or *wielding* only monk weapons".

Note that the "defense" Kensei option only requires you to "hold" the kensei weapon.

So, if _wielding_ is not the same as _holding_, then perhaps a level 5 Monk can:
  * Make first attack "wielding" the kensei weapon
  * Switch to "holding" the kensei weapon, which (maybe?) turns Martial Arts back on
  * Make unarmed attack (with Dex and Martial Arts die)
  * gain +2 AC

This seems like an excessively lawyerly reading of the rules, but the feature seems to suck otherwise...


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## MechaPilot (Dec 12, 2016)

Sacrosanct said:


> Another thing that sits weird with me is precise strike.  IME playing monks (one of my favorite classes), is that you're pretty much doing a bonus action every turn.  Moreso than probably any other class.  So many monk abilities are tied to bonus actions.
> 
> So giving up an extra attack, dodge, or movement to get double prof on one hit that can only be used once per short/long rest?  Kinda meh to me, to be honest.  Hitting monsters isn't too terribly hard, so what's the math trade off between attacking twice at normal prof bonus, or attacking only once with double prof bonus?




I can't speak to the default, but at my table this would be huge.  I often let players attempt things as riders to attacks, hinging success on beating the target's AC by 5 or more.


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## BookBarbarian (Dec 12, 2016)

bganon said:


> Yeah, on further reading the Kensei depends critically on how you interpret the Martial Arts requirement to be "unarmed or *wielding* only monk weapons".
> 
> Note that the "defense" Kensei option only requires you to "hold" the kensei weapon.
> 
> ...




Maybe the intent is to have to make both attacks that turn as unarmed strikes? I could still see that working for me as long as I don't have to sheath my Kensei weapon to do it.


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## bganon (Dec 12, 2016)

BookBarbarian said:


> Maybe the intent is to have to make both attacks that turn as unarmed strikes? I could still see that working for me as long as I don't have to sheath my Kensei weapon to do it.




Maybe - it still relies on being picky about the distinction between holding a weapon and wielding it.  Martial Arts just doesn't work if you "wield" a martial weapon, and without it unarmed strikes are STR-based and do one point of damage.

I mean, I'd be tempted to just rule that kensei weapons count as monk weapons for the purpose of Martial Arts.  But then the d4 "pummel" doesn't seem to make much sense - I think the Martial Arts bonus unarmed strike is almost always better.


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## MechaPilot (Dec 12, 2016)

The way I read the kensei ability, the three martial weapons you choose to gain proficiency with basically become Martial Arts Weapons for you.  Otherwise why allow the choice of Str or Dex in attack and damage rolls, and why allow the substitution of the martial arts damage dice.


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## BookBarbarian (Dec 12, 2016)

bganon said:


> Maybe - it still relies on being picky about the distinction between holding a weapon and wielding it.  Martial Arts just doesn't work if you "wield" a martial weapon, and without it unarmed strikes are STR-based and do one point of damage.
> 
> I mean, I'd be tempted to just rule that kensei weapons count as monk weapons for the purpose of Martial Arts.  But then the d4 "pummel" doesn't seem to make much sense - I think the Martial Arts bonus unarmed strike is almost always better.




Yeah no disagreement here. Weapon juggling between Kensai weapon features and Martial arts features just doesn't do it for me. If they get these things ironed out I would really like this sublcass.


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## Fritzo (Dec 12, 2016)

Chaosmancer said:


> I've been wanting a Kensei since the playtest of 5th edition. Yet I find myself completely unimpressed.
> 
> First of all, being able to use any weapon as a dexterity weapon may be too powerful, but part of the problem is the new terminology.
> 
> ...




I think Chaos hit the nail on the head. I reread the rules and the problem is this little part of the Martial Arts feature:


> You gain the following benefits while you are unarmed or *wielding only monk weapons* and you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a shield:



Completely destroys any synergy when using unarmed attacks between the base class and the subclass. It wouldn't allow a bonus action unarmed attack but would allow the use of flurry of blows but at 1+strength mod, why bother. Plus what you've already listed above in Way of the Kensei.

They should either make it a monk weapon or completely rethink how it's written. This and the fighter archetype felt very sloppy trying to read. I trust that they'll fix these things before they're added to any future books.


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## hejtmane (Dec 12, 2016)

BookBarbarian said:


> Maybe the intent is to have to make both attacks that turn as unarmed strikes? I could still see that working for me as long as I don't have to sheath my Kensei weapon to do it.



Unarmed attack can be a kick even states that in phb

Sent from my XT1095 using Tapatalk


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## AmerginLiath (Dec 12, 2016)

Wait, am I wrong on thinking that a Kensai could wield a greatsword/greataxe/polearm with Dexterity, take GWM, and use their double proficiency bonus to compensate for the -5 to become a surprising damage beast even dumping Strength?


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## gyor (Dec 12, 2016)

If Kensai all are monks and those Martial Weapons that the Kensai have profiency in count as Kensai weapons, then by definition they ARE Monk weapons.


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## MechaPilot (Dec 12, 2016)

Fritzo said:


> They should either make it a monk weapon or completely rethink how it's written. This and the fighter archetype felt very sloppy trying to read. I trust that they'll fix these things before they're added to any future books.




I think the intent was that it becomes a monk weapon.

"When you choose this tradition at 3rd level, you
learn to extend your knowledge of the martial
arts beyond the standard array of monk
weapons."

This implies that the three weapons you choose are an extension of your monk weapon list.


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## BookBarbarian (Dec 12, 2016)

hejtmane said:


> Unarmed attack can be a kick even states that in phb
> 
> Sent from my XT1095 using Tapatalk




Certainly true, but can that unarmed strike be a Martial arts or flurry of blows attack if you are wielding a greatsword as a kensei weapon?


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## Sir Brennen (Dec 12, 2016)

Fritzo said:


> Completely destroys any synergy when using unarmed attacks between the base class and the subclass. It wouldn't allow a bonus action unarmed attack but would allow the use of flurry of blows but at 1+strength mod, why bother. Plus what you've already listed above in Way of the Kensei.




Unless you wield a shortsword, which is both a Monk weapon and, being martial, a potential Kensei weapon. So you can get that extra unarmed strike in, or get the +2 AC bonus. But having your full Monk MA die for unarmed strikes makes that auto d4 less attractive, except in cases where you don't want to risk missing with an unarmed strike, but already hit with your weapon (needing conscious min-maxing on the fly). 

Even though shortsword is the most flexible option, no matter what you pick, you don't really get to utilize all the features of the monk and the tradition to their full extent. So, yeah, overall, Kensei needs work.


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## Fritzo (Dec 12, 2016)

MechaPilot said:


> I think the intent was that it becomes a monk weapon.
> 
> 
> "When you choose this tradition at 3rd level, you
> ...





You're probably right, but as read they sound like additional weapons not additional monk weapons. I'm going to add it to the survey anyway just so they're aware of it and i recommend any body else does to who's worried about the RAW.


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## Sir Brennen (Dec 12, 2016)

MechaPilot said:


> This implies that the three weapons you choose are an extension of your monk weapon list.



 Except they specifically called kensei weapons in the rest of the tradition text. And if they are monk weapons, it sort of negates a couple of the traditions features.


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## MechaPilot (Dec 12, 2016)

Sir Brennen said:


> Except they specifically called kensei weapons in the rest of the tradition text. And if they are monk weapons, it sort of negates a couple of the traditions features.




Kensei weapons can very easily mean "those weapons added to your monk weapon list by virtue of the 3rd level kensei feature."  Lord knows "kensei weapons" is certainly a shorter way to say it.

Also, what tradition features does it negate?


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## cbwjm (Dec 12, 2016)

Since martial weapons were deliberately called out as Kensei weapons, I believe they are separate from monk weapons. It also notes that martial weapons count as kensei weapons if you are proficient in it so you could expand beyond the initial 3 quite easily via racial weapons or multiclassing.


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## Patrick McGill (Dec 12, 2016)

MechaPilot said:


> Kensei weapons can very easily mean "those weapons added to your monk weapon list by virtue of the 3rd level kensei feature."  Lord knows "kensei weapons" is certainly a shorter way to say it.
> 
> Also, what tradition features does it negate?




Rereading it, I'm not sure I agree. They could have easily just said they become monk weapons. They seem to spend a lot of words to not say that. By RAW, all monk weapons are kensei weapons, but not all kensei weapons are monk weapons from my reading.


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## Corpsetaker (Dec 12, 2016)

They place the Samurai with the Fighter but not the Kensai. Doesn't make sense.


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## bganon (Dec 12, 2016)

I think the intent was very much *not* for kensei weapons to be monk weapons, otherwise they wouldn't have needed to spell out the Dex/Str thing again, and the pummel ability would be almost redundant.  The whole path could've been "pick three martial weapons, boom they're monk weapons now", but it quite deliberately was not.

But the subclass really reads like the assumption was *also* that kensei could still make meaningful unarmed strikes, which is only possible if Martial Arts is still functioning - i.e. that the kensei is unarmed or wielding a monk weapon.

Honestly, I think either the intent was a very narrow parsing of "holding" vs "wielding", or the designers didn't sort through all the rules interactions very carefully.  Given that the latter has happened before with the monk...


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## phantomK9 (Dec 12, 2016)

Ok, it took a minute to really get through these. Like the concepts but Kensei especially is very fiddly with the language.



> *Path of the Kensei*
> When you choose this tradition at 3rd level, you learn to extend your knowledge of the martial arts beyond the standard array of monk weapons.
> You gain the following benefits:
> • You gain proficiency with three martial weapons of your choice. A martial weapon is considered a kensei weapon for you if you’re proficient with it.



So interesting. I'm thinking that the three martial weapons are "kensei" weapons is odd language leading one to believe that maybe they aren't also _Monk_ weapons. Strange wording. Although a Kensei is still a Monk and so maybe a Kensei weapon is just technically a subset of Monk weapons just for the Kensei. Also, the phrase "is considered a kensei weapon for you if you're proficient with it" leads me to believe that maybe that if you multiclass as Fighter or take the Weapon Training Feat, the list of weapons that are now Kensei weapons for you can really increase and thus isn't strickly limited to just the three weapons that you get proficiency with at 3rd level. Honestly in just two sentences there is a lot to unpack.



> • Whenever you wield a kensei weapon, you choose whether to use Dexterity or Strength for the attack and damage rolls of the weapon, and you choose whether to use your Martial Arts damage die in place of the weapon’s damage die.



So allowing you to choose the Martial Arts damage die seems to back up the idea that a Kensei weapon is still also a Monk weapon. But the Kensei gets the addition benefit of being able to choose Strength or Dex to hit. Since the rule of what consitutes a Monk weapon does rely on the Finesse property (at least I don't think it does) then this shouldn't be too problematic. But it would be the rare Monk who has a high Strength and Dex because Dex is used for so many things and gives the Monk a high AC....



> • When you take the Attack action on your turn and hit a target with a kensei weapon, you can use a bonus action to pummel the target, dealing an additional 1d4 bludgeoning damage to that target and to any other target you hit with the weapon as part of the Attack.



So, per PHB Monk, a Monk can make more attacks per round than usual as long as weilding a Monk weapon or is unarmed. If one believes that Kensei weapons are mearly a subset of Monk weapons, then the Kensei could concievably, drop in the middle of a crowd, make multiple attacks against each of them using one of the standard Monk weapon/unarmed attacks. Then after all the standard attacks are done, go ahead and spend the bonus action to do an additional 1d4 to everyone that was hit at part of the standard attack.  Am I reading that right?  I think so. The "Attack action" actually includes all that attacks that you are allowed to take, you take ONE Attack action and get multiple distinct attack die roles as part of it. So kind of like a whirlwind ability after the fact.



> • If you make an unarmed strike as part of the Attack action on your turn and are holding a kensei weapon, you can use that weapon to defend yourself. You gain a +2 bonus to AC until the start of your next turn while you are not incapacitated and the weapon is in your hand.



So if I'm understanding this correctly, you could make your normal attacks using your kensei weapon and then spend your ki to make a bonus unarmed attack action, you could then gain the benefit of the +2 AC. This is another one that seems really weirdly worded.



> *One with the Blade*
> At 6th level, you extend your ki into the weapons you hold, granting you the following benefits.
> *Magic Weapons.* Your attacks with your kensei weapons count as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage.



Sure. Makes perfect sense. So not all monk weapons or unarmed strikes get this, just your kensei weapons.



> *Precise Strike.* You can focus your attention on a single target in battle to understand and
> overcome its defenses. As a bonus action, pick one creature you can see within 30 feet of you. The next weapon attack you make against that creature during the current turn adds double your proficiency bonus to the attack roll, rather than your normal proficiency bonus. Once you use this ability, you can’t use it again until you finish a short or long rest.



Not sure if I like this one or not. While it doesn't seem too powerful for a 6th level ability, it also really doesn't seem all that useful either. Especially since you only get one per rest. You basically give up your bonus action (which is at a premium considering all the other stuff that takes bonus actions) to get a +3 to attack. Some games that would be huge, some games not so much. I think I'd like it better if it also gave the bonus to damage. Or allowed you to spend Ki for bonus damage dice (making it very similar to a smite) *shrug*



> *Sharpen the Blade*
> At 11th level, you gain the ability to augment your weapons with the strength of your ki. As a bonus action, you can expend up to 3 ki points to grant a weapon you touch a bonus to attack and damage rolls while you wield it. The bonus equals the number of ki points you spent. This bonus lasts for 1 minute.



So at 11th level you can spend up to 3 Ki (which are a precious resource judging by how our group's Monk needs them) to give any weapon you touch (and then subsequently wield) a bonus to attack and damage rolls equal the number you spend. So going for broke you spend 3 Ki and get +3 attack and +3 damage for 1 minute (10 rounds). Ok, that actually sounds pretty good. Not sure if it is overpowered for 11th level, but I think I like it. 



> *Unerring Accuracy*
> At 17th level, your mastery of weapons grants you extraordinary accuracy. On each of your turns, you can reroll one weapon attack roll you make that misses.



Seems like a good ability. Hard to judge if is it powered right. Once per turn reroll of a miss for free. Not bad.


Maybe its just me but I feel like the Kensei should have the Fighting Spirit ability that was given to the Samurai on the Fighter UA. Maybe that would be too much.....


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## Sword of Spirit (Dec 12, 2016)

I just have to say that I was quite pleasantly surprised by this week's subclasses.

I have been unimpressed by most of the subclasses (though there was usually at least one I liked each week). My major complaint is that many of the subclasses are pure bloat with no real D&D history behind them, nor even much non-D&D fantasy/myth/history. They are pure innovations, which are exactly what we don't need in 5e at this point. Why, you ask? Because there are plenty of traditional D&D things that are waiting to be implemented. Do those _first_ and then feel free to experiment (within reason). So anytime I see something that has neither a D&D tradition, or at least a strong fantasy/mythic/historical tradition, it irks me.

So this week, we get the kensai! Yay! It's a traditional class from Oriental Adventures since 1e, and it represents a cool non-D&D concept. Double win. I'll give my critique on the mechanics in the survey, but I'm delighted with the concept.

The Way of Tranquility doesn't have a strong D&D tradition (it has some), but the concept of the peaceful monk has plenty of great non-D&D tradition, so it's an excellent inclusion.

With the 5 monk subclasses we already had in the game, I was expecting there wasn't much left for them to do but make up some bloat just to give us option (like I felt about some of the other classes), but instead they surprised me with some great contributions. (By the way, I am a big fan of 5e and I generally approve of the way the design team has done things--I'm just not a fan of innovative bloat.)


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## Pathkeeper24601 (Dec 12, 2016)

Seems to me you have two separate and intersecting groups of weapons.  First ou have Monk Weapons as defined by PH.  Then you have Kensei weapons that are Martial Weapons you are proficient with.  Monk weapons should still work as Monk Weapons (such unarmed attack).  Then you get the subset of weapons that are Marital and Monk Weapons (well Short swords) that qualify as both Kensei and Monk and would get the benefits of both with the exception of where they would stack.  Assuming that Extra Attack doesn't require using the same attack, you could Great Sword + unarmed kick and still use the standard Monk Bonus Action attack and get the +2 AC.  Note the flurry only requires taking the attack action and isn't specific to monk weapons with the unarmed attacks being done as Monk weapons.

I see a bit about how this works with GWF weapons and such, but I'm thinking a high level Kensei with a Hand Crossbow and CM+SS getting kind of crazy.

Edit: Oops, forgot the "only" part under Monk Weapons.  Really makes Short Swords looking good as a defensive Monk.


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## Chaosmancer (Dec 13, 2016)

Blue said:


> About the Kensai I think people are mis-evaluating the d4.  It doesn't have to be *A* d4.  It's a d4 to every creature you hit during the attack action.  Could be 2 creatures fairly easily.  Wish the ranger's whirlwind attack was an Attack action.  Also there is no additional to-hit roll required, it's guaranteed damage.
> 
> Yeah, it' still a freakin' d4, but it's not as bad as people make it out to be.




It can be two creatures, but that is it, and if you attack the same creature twice it is only 1d4

Compared to flurry of blows by level 5, you can hit 4 creatures for 1d6+mod, or one creature for 4d6+modx4, or any combination. 

The Kensei is only better in that it is automatic damage, but the base monk ability to bonus action unarmed attack is better damage from the beginning (1d4+mod vs 1d4)



AmerginLiath said:


> Wait, am I wrong on thinking that a Kensai could wield a greatsword/greataxe/polearm with Dexterity, take GWM, and use their double proficiency bonus to compensate for the -5 to become a surprising damage beast even dumping Strength?




Nope, they could totally do that. And make it a +3 greatsword while they are at it



gyor said:


> If Kensai all are monks and those Martial Weapons that the Kensai have profiency in count as Kensai weapons, then by definition they ARE Monk weapons.




Not neccesarily, any monk can wield a greatclub, but greatclubs are not monk weapons, neither are any ranged weapons. Monk weapons have a very specific criteria and Kensei doesn’t say they are monk weapons, only kensei weapons which can be interpreted to be an entirely separate category. 

Really, if they are monk weapons it causes issues with the +2 to AC being almost always active and the bonus action pummel being nearly worthless

If they aren’t it means you’ll almost never activate the +2 AC and the Open Fist monk could be significantly better than you in a melee fight at high levels (unless GWM) because the flurry of blows after a stunning strike is just so much better than what this Kensei can pull off. 

It seems to lose either way.


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## rczarnec (Dec 13, 2016)

Sacrosanct said:


> I hate d4s




Maybe you should use something like these: https://www.thediceshoponline.com/dice/1015/Chessex-Urban-Camo-Roman-12-Sided-D4

This type is much better to use than the caltrops.


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## maceochaid (Dec 13, 2016)

I always thought of Kensei's as being devoted to one particular weapon. I also wonder how helpful is it to have 3 Kensei weapons. Outside of a ranged and a melee weapon. I could see maybe having a bludgeoning weapon on hand for a skeleton or two . . . but could the Kensei have been built with a kind of Storm Herald Barbarian style where each feature had more of a weapon group improvement demonstrating your expanding devotion to one particular weapon?

That said, I really do want to write up some fluff around the Elven Kensei's who are masters of longswords and longbows.


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## The Human Target (Dec 13, 2016)

Out of all the cool options they could have gone with, we get a kind of sort of kensai and a bland "pacifist."

Disappointing.


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## Valetudo (Dec 13, 2016)

Fighter: Hey I hear your a pacifist?
Monk: Yes, I abhor violence.
Fighter: Want to come hobomurdering with me?
Monk: Sure, sounds like the perfect career choice for me.


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## vpuigdoller (Dec 13, 2016)

I like where the kensai is going i think it needs clearer language.  The pacifist, not so sure.


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## cbwjm (Dec 13, 2016)

The Tranquillity monk isn't a pacifist, they just use violence as a last resort. Still, adventuring into dungeons fighting goblins, dragons, and other sundry monsters probably wouldn't be the career for them. I think they would fit a different form of campaign that was fairly light on combat, but not so much a combat-centric campaign.


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## SkidAce (Dec 13, 2016)

AmerginLiath said:


> Wait, am I wrong on thinking that a Kensai could wield a greatsword/greataxe/polearm with Dexterity, take GWM, and use their double proficiency bonus to compensate for the -5 to become a surprising damage beast even dumping Strength?




Oy!


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## Leatherhead (Dec 13, 2016)

Time for a more in-depth look.

*Way of the Kensei*
The Secret of Gun-Fu 

*Path of the Kensei*
_Three weapons_
These are explicitly not Monk weapons, which is really sad if you wanted your Kensei weapon to be a dagger or some other simple Monk weapon, like the Unarmed Strike.

Putting off learning the weapon that you are going to be using for the rest of your life till level 3 is a bit of story/mechanics dissonance, but it really can't be helped with the current format. I suppose you could ask your DM to let this work for you in some fashion from level 1, something like "you can use a greatsword, but until level 3 it must use the Monk damage die." That would be weird too, but at least it's balanced. Three proficiencies lets you pick a bow, a greataxe, and whatever else you would like, like the net.

Actually, can you imagine using the net as your main weapon? Restraining and Monk damage, that just may make the net a viable option somehow.

Aside from nets, using longbows is the other mindblowing option. Maybe more so for a 3 level dip, so you can benefit from using a belt of storm giant strength in your traditional archer build.

For Gun-Fu you use a hand crossbow, pickup the crossbow sniper feat, and get three magical ranged attacks with full Monk die damage.

Pole-arms, on the other hand, aren't so hot due due to already getting melee bonus action attacks. And speaking of bonus actions...

_Strength or Dexterity for your attacks_
This makes Kensei weapons work almost entirely like Monk weapons.
Side effects include using Great Weapons with Dex, to make Dex even better. And Using Belts of Giant Strength on Archers, to give them even more damage.

_Pummel_
For lack of a better name.
This is not an attack. You spend your Bonus Action as you take your Attack Action, then you deal 1d4 bonus bludgeoning damage to every target you hit with your Attack option.

I would assume this is intended to replace the traditional Martial Arts Bonus Action, because your Kensei Weapon isn't a Monk weapon for reasons. There are a few problems with this:

It doesn't scale beyond the fact that you can attack twice at level 5. 
It doesn't get bonus damage.
It dosn't work on the same target more than once per turn.
Flurry Of Blows does work with Kensei Weapons. (Well, one of them anyway~)
Using an Unarmed Strike as part of your full Attack (yes you can use multiple weapons) lets you use the Martial Arts bonus action, and gives you +2 AC.

As for why you would ever use this? You decided to use a Longbow or a Net, or you aren't level 5 yet. And you somehow made a ranged weapon pummel the target. I'm not sure how that works either, perhaps the arrow "twanged" and slapped them in the face after it embedded itself in the chest of the target?

_+2 AC for using Unarmed Strikes._
Helps out melee Kensei tremendously. Not only do they qualify for Martial Arts, and do more damage as a result, but they get a bonus for it!
Ranged Kensei could potentially use it as a pseudo-Mobile feat in order to get some distance for their longbow to be effective.
Or you could just be a Hand Crossbow Kensei and get the best of both worlds 

*One with the Blade*
_Magic weapons_
Very useful, especially if you are a Gun-Fu expert and your DM didn't give you a magical Hand Crossbow.

_Precise Strike._
Once per rest, you can use a bonus action to get double your proficiency bonus to your next attack, against a creature that is no more than 30' away from you, provided that you can see it. This is bad. I would say it got hit by the same nerf bat that they hit 4e's rendition of the _Knock_ spell with, except this didn't exist before now. If it's limited in the number of times you use it, make it unrestricted on targets, because you want to thematically use it against the invisible or far away ones. If it's limited against targets I can use it against, just let me use the bonus action whenever I deem necessary.

Or just replace it with a ribbon. This subclass badly needs a ribbon anyway. Something that lets them repair or make Kensei weapons with minimal effort would be good. 

*Sharpen the Blade*
You make your Kensei Weapon even more magical for this encounter. Like +3 magical. Your Gun-Fu knows no DM gear limitations~
This doesn't work on Monk weapons, sadly.  Which makes makes synergies with Unarmed strike not so hot. Which is unfortunate because it's still better to use Unarmed Strike than Pummel.

*Unerring Accuracy*
This is a really fun Capstone. One Re-roll every turn means you are going to be seeing it in use all the time. It also works on every weapon and any attack.


Thoughts.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!1!

OK, sorry, my malicious streak came over me. This is the _Revengance_ of the hand-crossbow come to bloom in full glory. (if you know that game, you know why that works) Gun-Fu is going to be up, down, and all around, everywhere now, and not even a lack of magical crossbows can save you from it.

Petty celebrations aside, this path has some bad anti-synergies. The Kensei and Monk weapon divide hurts for no logical reason. Unarmed Strikes not technically being a weapon also hurts. Pummel needs to be useful on more weapons than just the Longbow and Net after level 5. Precise Strike needs to be made useful in the first place, or swapped. Swapping for a Ribbon is also cool.

Aside from those problems, I rather like the class in theme. I know the Kensei has traditionally been a Fighter, but Ki is the Monk's only claim to fame outside of punching stuff right now, and it's good to see non-punching monks being explored.

*Way of Tranquility*
Because there is more than one way to _not_ punch stuff.

*Path of Tranquility*
Sanctuary every 60 seconds. That's another one of those "Encounter Recharge"  powers being tested out. Also, Sanctuary is a very popular go-to defensive option for some reason.
It's not bad or anything like that, it just follows a trend that has been popping up as of late.

*Healing Hands*
It's a pool of healing, like Lay on Hands. Only bigger, and you can also use it as a Bonus Action if you spend a Ki point of Flurry of Blows.
I'm not sure how practical a reserve of 10xlevel is for being a group's only healer in terms of raw HP restored, but it is good enough for getting people back into the fight.

Unfortunately, it's not good for all the other stuff a healer has to deal with.

Things like:
Ability Score Reductions
Blindness/Deafness
Charm
Curses
Death
Exhaustion
Fear
Lost Limbs
Maximum Hit Point loss
Paralysis
Petrification
Stun

I don't expect every healer to bring back the dead, and maybe not even re-attach a limb. But I expect a "Healer" to be able to cover everything that _Greater_ and _Lesser Restoration_ can. Hit dice can make up for the rest. Giving them some way to snap people out of mind effecting things is also a plus, because I know people who like playing the Leader role love that kind of stuff.

*Emissary of Peace*
That's a good ribbon. Advantage, and extra proficencies.

*Douse the Flames of War*
This isn't so good. You can force one target to stop fighting, but only if it isn't hurt, and your friends aren't fighting it or it's friends at the moment.

I suppose you could heal the target to make sure it works, but there has to be a better ability that could be placed here instead. Others have suggested combat oriented non-lethal stuns and holds, I could see stuff like that working for this, and better in general.

*Anger of the Gentle Soul*
This is somehow both Thematic and Counter-thematic.
It's very powerful, up to 80 extra damage per short rest. But it doesn't feel right. Maybe if this ability was gained at a lower level it wouldn't seem so out of place? This is the Capstone ability for Monks who don't like Violence, it should probably be something Non-Violent. Maybe the ability to cast _Imprisonment_? Banishing Evil happens all the time in those Kung-Fu movies, well mostly before the movie, but somebody still has to do it first!

Thoughts

This peace-loving healer of a Monk isn't enough of a Peace-Lover or Healer for my tastes. Though it seems easier to fix than some of the other Subclasses we have been getting.


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## LapBandit (Dec 13, 2016)

I'd never allow a Kensai at my table. Taking the most powerful stat and making it stronger while taking the STR weapon wielder's cake is not ridiculous.


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## Leatherhead (Dec 13, 2016)

I just realized that the Kensei path has features that don't work as implied, because Martial Arts doesn't work if you are using a non-monk weapon, that is crazy.


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## Azzy (Dec 13, 2016)

Yeah, the kensei needs a it of work and clarity.

And for pete's sake, there's no "a" in "kensei", guys!


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## Edwin Suijkerbuijk (Dec 13, 2016)

so what about a Kensai using a shortsword?

A shortsword is a monk weapon as listed in the martial arts ability in the PHB.
But it is also a martial weapon and the Kensei sais "A martial weapon is considered a kensei weapon     for you if you’re proficient with it.

So is the shortsword the only weapon that is both a monk and a kensai weapon at the same time ?


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## Edwin Suijkerbuijk (Dec 13, 2016)

The Kensai runs in the problem of when are you holding a weapon and when are you wielding it.

Does it only coult as wielding if you attack with the weapon ?
If so you could just hold it for the +2 ac and use your martial arts feature normaly.


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## Leatherhead (Dec 13, 2016)

Edwin Suijkerbuijk said:


> The Kensai runs in the problem of when are you holding a weapon and when are you wielding it.
> 
> Does it only coult as wielding if you attack with the weapon ?
> If so you could just hold it for the +2 ac and use your martial arts feature normaly.




In this case you are holding the weapon in such a way that you are using it to deflect incoming blows. I would count that as "wielding" because it's certainly not just holding it.
And yeah Shortsword Kensei are the way to go, which I doubt was intended.


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## Edwin Suijkerbuijk (Dec 13, 2016)

Leatherhead said:


> In this case you are holding the weapon in such a way that you are using it to deflect incoming blows. I would count that as "wielding" because it's certainly not just holding it.
> And yeah Shortsword Kensei are the way to go, which I doubt was intended.




But the ability does not it sais :
If you	 make an unarmed strike as part of  the	 Attack action on	your	turn and are* holding* a kensei	weapon, you can	use that weapon	to defend yourself. You	gain	a +2	bonus	to AC

For many of the other abilities it sais wield but for this one is specificly sais hold.
So when are you holding and when are you wielding ?


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## Parmandur (Dec 13, 2016)

Great concepts, the Kensai does need some clarification: this sort of pushes the Monk chasis as far as it will go, I think...


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## Zardnaar (Dec 13, 2016)

IDK if you guys have worked out how bonkers the Kensai is.

 Yes you can't use martial arts/flury of blows. You are trading up from a d8 at best two handed weapon to one that deals 1d12/2d6.

 Additionally you can combo it with great weapon master and polearm master. A level 5 Kensai with PAM can attack 3 targets dealing an extra 1d4 damage to all of them and on average dealing 2 points of damage more than the way of the fist monk via a bigger weapon. That 1d4 replaces your extra attacks.

Consider (assuming 18 dex)

1d8+4/1d8+4/1d6+4 (24.5 avg)

vs

2d6+4/2d6+4/+2d4 (27)

 The number are looking good so far. Its situational on the amount of attacks that hit but so is the normal monks flurry of blows/martial arts. When you spend Ki points to flurry that is better.


 Additionally the way it is worded any martial weapon you are proficient with becomes a kensai weapon. Consider that with multiclassing and with an elf who picks up kensai longswords and longbows for free. Magical longswords are also a bit more common it seems than the other weapon types but at least you deal magical damage at level 6. 

 If you got to use martial arts/flurry of blows with Kensai weapons you just obsoleted every other monk and probably the fighter types as well in terms of damage and you could take sharpshooter and great weapon master. Things can even get more funky with rolled stats and official races having +2 wisdom now.


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## Edwin Suijkerbuijk (Dec 13, 2016)

Zardnaar said:


> Additionally you can combo it with great weapon master and polearm master. A level 5 Kensai with PAM can attack 3 targets dealing an 3xtra 1d4 damage to all of them




AM I reading it wong ?
So the the last word in the ability that alouws you to add the d4 is attack and not atack action.
so you only add the damage to one attack if this one attack has multipe targets you add it to al of them.

If it was intended to add 1d4 to all atacks during the atack action it would say attack action at the end of that sentence not attack.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 13, 2016)

Edwin Suijkerbuijk said:


> AM I reading it wong ?
> So the the last word in the ability that alouws you to add the d4 is attack and not atack action.
> so you only add the damage to one attack if this one attack has multipe targets you add it to al of them.
> 
> If it was intended to add 1d4 to all atacks during the atack action it would say attack action at the end of that sentence not attack.





 No I read it wrong the 1d4 is a bonus action so it doesn't combo that well with PAM and GWM.


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## hejtmane (Dec 13, 2016)

Ok now that I had time to read more details from earlier I like the concept of the Kensei but the damage is under whelming the only nice part is I can make the weapons magical attacks at 6th outside that and that if you go 2H great sword etc you can do the most damage when using your bonus action for something besides an attack. That is assuming no feats but I am still better off with my other concept to create my build where you go fighter/Monk Ranger/Monk that was all looking at 8th-10th Level. Heck Way of the hands with a qtr staff can do more damage then a Kenesi with a Great Sword (This is assuming single target when we get to multi target we have a different discussions) mostly because pummel only applies once per target and does not scale. This also assume using the bonus actions for attack which I noted about one of the advantages of Kensei.

Now if we are talking feat and adding GWM that changes the entire dynamics of builds but looking at the first glance it is under whelming for the most part. Maybe if pummel scaled or something with levels it be better you could have it top out at 1d8 give it some flexibility and be no worse than colossal slayer or Hoard breaker in damage. Just something that would maybe bring the build to a better level. 

Right now I say way of the Hand or Long Death multi classed with 3 levels of Fighter or Ranger with a short sword or Fighter with spear or staff may be a better build


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## Thurmas (Dec 13, 2016)

I really don't see all the issues people are having with the Kensei tradition.  Yes, you can't use them as Monk weapons, but you get other benefits.  I see it all as being maybe less attacks a turn, for more damage.  At level 5, instead of 3 attacks at 1d6+4, you could be doing two attacks at 2d6+1d4+4 each.  That has much more damage potential (27.0 average). They are pretty even, as even without using pummel, 3 attacks with a Monk weapon averages out to 22.5 damage.  2 attacks with a great sword is 22.  And you still have a bonus action to use for something. It may not scale all the way up to level 20, but it is at least very competitive for a lot of levels. Even a long sword in one hand is better for damage then a monk weapon until level 11 where it equals out. Then it increases in damage too. Throw in a bonus action Monk damage hand crossbow attack with Crossbow expert.

If anything, I see the Kensei giving you much more flexibility.  Before, you pretty much always use your bonus action for that unarmed strike to maximize damage.  Now you don't have to rely on it as much and have the opportunity to use your bonus action for other things. You COULD add a d4 to each attack. Or you could use a Ki ability such as Patient Defense or Step of the Wind. Use Sharpen your blade. Use a feat extra attack like Crossbow Expert, Dual Wield or Polearm Master. Maybe you multiclassed. You can cast a bonus action spell if you have spell casting like Hunter's Mark or Spiritual Weapon. Dash or disengage as a rogue. My point being, now you don't have to rely on using a bonus action to do a third of your damage.

I really wish I could combine this with Shadow Monk so I could bonus action teleport each turn...

It also has huge benefits for being a Monk archer.  Now you have something you can use your bonus action for, adding a little extra damage on each shot.


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## Leatherhead (Dec 13, 2016)

Edwin Suijkerbuijk said:


> But the ability does not it sais :
> If you	 make an unarmed strike as part of  the	 Attack action on	your	turn and are* holding* a kensei	weapon, you can	use that weapon	to defend yourself. You	gain	a +2	bonus	to AC
> 
> For many of the other abilities it sais wield but for this one is specificly sais hold.
> So when are you holding and when are you wielding ?




"Wield" isn't a rules term, it's natural language. Wield means "To hold and use."  You are both holding _and_ using the kensei weapon in order to get the +2 bonus.


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## hejtmane (Dec 13, 2016)

Thurmas said:


> I really don't see all the issues people are having with the Kensei tradition.  Yes, you can't use them as Monk weapons, but you get other benefits.  I see it all as being maybe less attacks a turn, for more damage.  At level 5, instead of 3 attacks at 1d6+4, you could be doing two attacks at 2d6+1d4+4 each.  That has much more damage potential (27.0 average). They are pretty even, as even without using pummel, 3 attacks with a Monk weapon averages out to 22.5 damage.  2 attacks with a great sword is 22.  And you still have a bonus action to use for something. It may not scale all the way up to level 20, but it is at least very competitive for a lot of levels. Even a long sword in one hand is better for damage then a monk weapon until level 11 where it equals out. Then it increases in damage too. Throw in a bonus action Monk damage hand crossbow attack with Crossbow expert.
> 
> If anything, I see the Kensei giving you much more flexibility.  Before, you pretty much always use your bonus action for that unarmed strike to maximize damage.  Now you don't have to rely on it as much and have the opportunity to use your bonus action for other things. You COULD add a d4 to each attack. Or you could use a Ki ability such as Patient Defense or Step of the Wind. Use Sharpen your blade. Use a feat extra attack like Crossbow Expert, Dual Wield or Polearm Master. Maybe you multiclassed. You can cast a bonus action spell if you have spell casting like Hunter's Mark or Spiritual Weapon. Dash or disengage as a rogue. My point being, now you don't have to rely on using a bonus action to do a third of your damage.
> 
> ...




Most monks do 2x 1d8 + 1d6 at 5th level spear or qtr staff 2h attack and then unarmed strike gives you 24.5 also note you only get 27 if you hit two targets pummel only applies to the first attack to the same target so if it the same target they both do 24.5 at 8th level assuming max dex it passes it up and stays ahead from there.


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## Flamestrike (Dec 13, 2016)

Kensai is worded shockingly bad. Its as clear as mud. 

You lose your martial arts ability when using your kensai weapon (meaning at best your unarmed attacks when you flurry or substitute an attack during the attack action with an unarmed strike deal [1 + Str damage], and you dont get the bonus action attack).

You're better off just going a Vuman OHM monk, taking GWM and Weapon master as your feats at 1st and 4th, and using the greatword as your attack action (plus GWM) twice and then flurrying (for 1+Str) twice (and pushing them flat with OHM ability on those attacks). You can even spam stunning fist on all 4 attacks.

Here is my take at the Kensai:

*Path of the Kensei (3rd level):*

When you choose	this tradition at 3rd level, you learn to extend your knowledge of the martial arts beyond the standard array of monk weapons.

Select one martial or simple weapon without the Heavy quality, other than the lance. This weapon is now treated as a Monk weapon for you. In addition, when you attack with the weapon you chose with this ability, you may replace the weapon damage die with 1d10 unless the weapon also has the reach quality. At 11th level in this class, the increased damage die increases to 2d6. At 17th level in this class it increases to 2d8.

In addition chose one of the following options:

1) Fighting style: Select one of the Archery, Dueling or Great weapon fighting styles.
2) Dual weapon kata: When you are not wearing armor or using a shield, and wield two Monk weapons at the same time, you gain +1 to AC.

*One with the Blade (6th level)*

Retain the *Magic weapons *ability. 

Remove Precise strike, and add the *Stare Down* ability (fluffed as a 'Weapon Kata' or 'Stare down' or pulling your attack at the last second, however you want to describe it). As an action pick a single target that can see you within 60'. That target must pass a [DC 8+Wis+Prof] Wis save or be _frightened _of you (the target can re-roll the save at the end of each turn to end the condition, becoming immune for 24 hours on a save).

*Sharpen the Blade (11th level)*

Replace with a variant of the Unnerring accuracy ability:

*Unnering accuracy*: You may spend 1 Ki point before making an attack with a monk weapon to make the attack with advantage to the attack roll.

*Unnerring accuracy (17th level)*

Replace with the *Deadly strike* ability:

*Deadly Strike:* When you use your Unnerring accuracy ability, and both attack rolls would hit your target, the attack is a critical hit.

Thoughts?


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## Zardnaar (Dec 13, 2016)

You can use a shortsword as a kensai weapon and use your martial arts with it.

A monk barbarian with PAM or GWM could be funny/abusive.


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## Leatherhead (Dec 13, 2016)

Thurmas said:


> I really don't see all the issues people are having with the Kensei tradition.  Yes, you can't use them as Monk weapons, but you get other benefits.




Considering that one, if not more, of the benefits you are supposed to receive don't actually work properly due to this problem, I don't see how you can't see it. It's an actually broken rule, not merely an opinion that something is overpowered.


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## Thurmas (Dec 13, 2016)

hejtmane said:


> Most monks do 2x 1d8 + 1d6 at 5th level spear or qtr staff 2h attack and then unarmed strike gives you 24.5 also note you only get 27 if you hit two targets pummel only applies to the first attack to the same target so if it the same target they both do 24.5 at 8th level assuming max dex it passes it up and stays ahead from there.




Fair points.  I hadn't really thought about the spear/quarterstaff since I used a pair of daggers last Monk I played.  I also appreciate the clarification on the pummel. I do wish it was with each attack, or at least worded a little differently.

My main point was still that I feel it gives extra flexibility.  I don't really look at things from a numbers point of view most of the time.  I like versatility and flexibility more, and I think this gives it to you.


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## Flamestrike (Dec 13, 2016)

Zardnaar said:


> A monk barbarian with PAM or GWM could be funny/abusive.




Why?

There is literally no difference between an Open Hand Monk 5 (Vuman, GWM and Weapon Master feats) and a Kensai 5.

A Kensai (using a greatsword) loses access to martial arts, just like the OHM does.

Both get to make 2 x Greatsword attacks (Attack action) using GWM if they like with thier action.

Both _cant_ use [bonus action] attack via martial arts when they do so. Both _can _still use flurry for two more attacks though (but the damage is only 1+Str and they cant use Dex).

The Kensai can use his bonus action to wuss slap anything he hit this round dealing an extra 1d4 bludgeoning damage (instead of spamming 2 weak furry attacks). The OHM can impose OHM conditions on anyone he hit with his two weak OHM flurry attacks.

Both can spam stunning strike on every attack that hits. Both can use their bonus action to cleave if they kill something or crit something with their swords (instead of flurrying or the kensai wuss slapping).

The Kensai gets to use Dex if he wants for the Greatsword attacks (but not the unarmed flurries). The OHM is forced to use Strength for everything.

Its just clunky and poorly executed.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 13, 2016)

Flamestrike said:


> Why?
> 
> There is literally no difference between an Open Hand Monk 5 (Vuman, GWM and Weapon Master feats) and a Kensai 5.
> 
> ...



Its not the damage but the AC and using a dex based weapon to rage with. Dex wis con to AC. Combine it with lizardfolk AC of 13 and yeah.


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## Thurmas (Dec 13, 2016)

Leatherhead said:


> Considering that one, if not more, of the benefits you are supposed to receive don't actually work properly due to this problem, I don't see how you can't see it. It's an actually broken rule, not merely an opinion that something is overpowered.




I've only seen your bonus action unarmed attack and Flurry of blows being affected by this, and I would imagine both of those was intentional.  Nothing says you can't still use those abilities, you just can't be wielding a Kensei weapon when you do it.  The monk is the only class that gets to make two full attacks at level 1 without feats.  It balances a little bit for damage because the weapons used aren't going to be with a weapon die bigger the a d8. Again, you're trading frequency of attacks for more powerful attacks.


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## Flamestrike (Dec 13, 2016)

Zardnaar said:


> Its not the damage but the AC and using a dex based weapon to rage with.




Raging with a Dex based weapon is bad. The benefits only apply to melee attacks that use Strength.

As for AC, its +2 to AC when you make an unarmed attack on your turn. That unarmed attack deals 1+Str damage.



> Dex wis con to AC. Combine it with lizardfolk AC of 13 and yeah.




Dude come on. The games been out for 3 years now.

If you have more than one method of calculating AC, pick one (and only one) and if you have two classes with Unarmored defence you only get the 1st version of it you learnt. 

You use either [dex+wis] or [con+dex+shield] and it depends on which version you learnt first. If you also have natural armor, you can instead use [natural armor+dex].


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## rczarnec (Dec 13, 2016)

Zardnaar said:


> Its not the damage but the AC and using a dex based weapon to rage with. Dex wis con to AC. Combine it with lizardfolk AC of 13 and yeah.




That doesn't work, you can only choose one method of calculating AC. 

You can choose Lizardfolk 13+DEX or Barbarian 10+CON+DEX or Monk 10+WIS+DEX. You cannot combine them.

In addition, you can rage, but you don't get the damage bonus if you make a DEX based attack, it has to be a STR attack.


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## Connorsrpg (Dec 13, 2016)

Surely kensai can take a weapon they can already use. That sounds odd. And why 3? Master of one! Choose one, and I would like some limitation on the weapon too. Surely not mauls and greataxes? (We use more weapon qualities than core, so that might be an option for us).


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## Chaosmancer (Dec 13, 2016)

Thurmas said:


> I really don't see all the issues people are having with the Kensei tradition.  Yes, you can't use them as Monk weapons, but you get other benefits.
> 
> If anything, I see the Kensei giving you much more flexibility.





Here's how I'm seeing it.

Open Hand Monk vs Kensei 5th level (we'll assume +5 dex, no feats for now)

Open hand makes 4 attacks, 2 with staff, 2 with flurry, for 2d8+2d6+20. They also get the Open hand optional effects with the Flurry of Blows attacks

Kensei using a greatsword/maul makes 2 attacks and pummels, for 4d6+10+1d4


Add feats, Open Hand stays the same

Kensei uses GWM and we'll assume hits 4d6+30+1d4 clearly taking the lead. 

Polearm is even better potentially, because you can replace the bonus attack.


Now let's jump to level 17, no feats

Open Hand can flurry for 4d10+20

Kensei 4d6+16+1d4


GWM stills wins out though, getting 4d6+36+1d4

Polearm is actually worse, unless you also have GWM. 


So, the only way Kensei gets better damage on a burst is to grab Great Weapon, otherwise the other monks end up with better damage over all, and if you've taken this sub-class I'd assume your intentions are to get better damage. And in fact, the only wayto out compete the monks normal non-ki spending damage is to use a weapon that has a 1d10 or higher damage die, because monks generally can use 1d8 weapons, meaning a longsword wielding monk is just as good as a staff monk, unless they are using two hands, until the point where the bonus attack from martial arts beats out the 1d4 from pummel... which is really early in the monks career, as I will gladly go for 1d6+mod on a roll before a 1d4 on a roll (because the weapon attack still has to hit)

The Kensei's only advantage for flexibility seems to come from shortsword wielding, and it only gives an AC bonus, which I have never seen be an issue with monks. Every monk I have ever DM'd for very quickly had a AC of 18 or higher, and the ability to Dodge as a bonus if they felt threatened. 

So, you lose out on damage unless you take two of the most often complained about feats in the game, and you don't really seem to gain much beyond accuracy on hitting and adding to your armor class.


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## Flamestrike (Dec 13, 2016)

Thurmas said:


> I've only seen your bonus action unarmed attack and Flurry of blows being affected by this, and I would imagine both of those was intentional.  Nothing says you can't still use those abilities, you just can't be wielding a Kensei weapon when you do it.  The monk is the only class that gets to make two full attacks at level 1 without feats.  It balances a little bit for damage because the weapons used aren't going to be with a weapon die bigger the a d8. Again, you're trading frequency of attacks for more powerful attacks.




Your unarmed damage also drops to 1+Str on any round you wield your Kensai weapon (unless its a shortsword). You lose access to martial arts (and its bonus damage die, ability to substitute dex for str and the bonus action attack) as soon as you start wielding a non Monk weapon.

Heck its doubtful the +2 to AC thing is worth it. Is getting +2 to AC from a weapon (arguably youre parrying and crap with it to get the bonus) wielding it? 

If it is, enjoy your +2 to AC because your damage just dropped to 1+ Str this round, you lose your bonus action attack via martial arts, and everything defaults back to Str.


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## Leatherhead (Dec 13, 2016)

Thurmas said:


> I've only seen your bonus action unarmed attack and Flurry of blows being affected by this, and I would imagine both of those was intentional.




You missed the part where they get a +2 bonus on AC when they use Unarmed Strikes and a Kensei weapon. Unarmed Strikes don't benefit from Martial Arts if you are wielding a non-Monk weapon, and that can't be intentional.


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## hejtmane (Dec 13, 2016)

BookBarbarian said:


> Certainly true, but can that unarmed strike be a Martial arts or flurry of blows attack if you are wielding a greatsword as a kensei weapon?




Nothing I have read in the article that says you can not use your bonus action for flurry of blows instead of pummel. So two sword attacks + flurry of blows gets you extra damage and +2ac


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## Flamestrike (Dec 13, 2016)

Leatherhead said:


> You missed the part where they get a +2 bonus on AC when they use Unarmed Strikes and a Kensei weapon. Unarmed Strikes don't benefit from Martial Arts if you are wielding a non-Monk weapon, and that can't be intentional.




Its just silly how they did it. If they wanted to limit damage (while scaling) do this:


_*Path of the Kensei (3rd level):*

When you choose    this tradition at 3rd level, you learn to extend your knowledge of the martial arts beyond the standard array of monk weapons.

Select one martial or simple weapon without the Heavy quality, other than the lance. This weapon is now treated as a Monk weapon for you. In addition, when you attack with the weapon you chose with this ability, you may replace the weapon damage die with 1d10 unless the weapon also has the reach quality. At 11th level in this class, the increased damage die increases to 2d6. At 17th level in this class it increases to 2d8.

In addition chose one of the following options:

1) Fighting style: Select one of the Archery, Dueling or Great weapon fighting styles.
2) Dual weapon kata: When you are not wearing armor or using a shield, and wield two Monk weapons at the same time, you gain +1 to AC.
_

Youre already (at 3rd level) dealing 1d8 damage with a spear or staff as an OHM/ Elements monk (with a bonus action attack from martial arts). The above ability just increases it to 1d10 (while retaining the bonus action martial arts attack).

Its 1 extra point of damage per round. Compared to OHM shennanigans at this level its weak. Hence why I added the F/S in (which also allows for different style of Kensai/ Zen archers)

As the weapon damage increases as you level, you're still lagging behind fighters (when it scales to 2d6 at 11th, they're getting 3 weapon attacks per round; six if they action surge, and likely more from bonus action cleaves and the like, plus extra damage from sup dice and explanded crit range). 

Plus the above ability precludes the use of Heavy weapons (so no GWM for you Monk)


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## Flamestrike (Dec 13, 2016)

hejtmane said:


> Nothing I have read in the article that says you can not use your bonus action for flurry of blows instead of pummel. So two sword attacks + flurry of blows gets you extra damage and +2ac




Flurry of blows when you weild a Kensai weapon other than the shortsword, grants 2 attacks each dealing dealing [1+Str damage]. 

Which seeing as you probably dumped Strength, is a really poor investment of Ki. 

Its a dainty wuss-slap on each of your opponents cheeks at best.


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## Thurmas (Dec 13, 2016)

Flamestrike said:


> Your unarmed damage also drops to 1+Str on any round you wield your Kensai weapon (unless its a shortsword). You lose access to martial arts (and its bonus damage die, ability to substitute dex for str and the bonus action attack) as soon as you start wielding a non Monk weapon.
> 
> Heck its doubtful the +2 to AC thing is worth it. Is getting +2 to AC from a weapon (arguably youre parrying and crap with it to get the bonus) wielding it?
> 
> If it is, enjoy your +2 to AC because your damage just dropped to 1+ Str this round, you lose your bonus action attack via martial arts, and everything defaults back to Str.




The Path of the Kensei ability in the UA gives you the ability to still use your Dex or Str for Kensie weapons, and you can still choose to use the Monk weapon die, so you keep all those.  Its only the unarmed strike bonus action and Flurry of Blows that are affected, as I mentioned earlier.


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## Flamestrike (Dec 13, 2016)

Thurmas said:


> The Path of the Kensei ability in the UA gives you the ability to still use your Dex or Str for Kensie weapons, *and you can still choose to use the Monk weapon die,*




No you dont. You use the Monk damage die for your Kensai weapon,_ but it doesnt become a Monk weapon._

So while you use your Kensai weapon, you lose access to your martial arts class feature. 

The instant you use your Kensai weapon, you lose your bonus action martial arts attack, your damage dice when unarmed or using other monk weapons drops to 1 (or the base damage of the weapon) and you have to use Strength for these attacks.

The only exception is if you choose the Shortsword as your kensai weapon. The shortsword is also a monk weapon, so you get to retain your martial arts ability as long as you use it.

A Kensai that picks a longsword (katana) as his Kensai weapon, and wields it, loses access to martial arts for as long as he does so.


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## Thurmas (Dec 13, 2016)

Chaosmancer said:


> Here's how I'm seeing it.
> 
> Open Hand Monk vs Kensei 5th level (we'll assume +5 dex, no feats for now)
> 
> ...




I didn't go through all your math there point by point, but did you include Sharpen the Blade extra damage in the extra attack for Polearm Master?  It looks like you did for the other regular attacks.  


I will say, the most exciting part of all of this for me is being able to use a Naginata as a viable weapon now.  Not something you could do before with a Monk.


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## Flamestrike (Dec 13, 2016)

Compare to my version of the same ability:

*Path of the Kensei (3rd level):*

_When you choose this tradition at 3rd level, you learn to extend your knowledge of the martial arts beyond the standard array of monk weapons.

Select one martial or simple weapon without the Heavy quality, other than the lance. This weapon is now treated as a Monk weapon for you. 

In addition, unless the weapon has the reach quality, when you attack with the weapon you chose with this ability you may replace the weapon damage die with 1d10. At 11th level in this class, this damage increases to 2d6. At 17th level in this class it increases to 2d8.

Finally, choose one of the following options:

1) Fighting style: Select one of the Archery, Dueling or Great weapon fighting styles.
2) Dual weapon kata: When you are not wearing armor or using a shield, and wield two Monk weapons at the same time, you gain +1 to AC._

Much clearer.


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## Flamestrike (Dec 13, 2016)

Thurmas said:


> I will say, the most exciting part of all of this for me is being able to *use a Naginata* as a viable weapon now.  *Not something you could do before with a Monk.*




Re-fluffed spear.

Also used for the lajatang, or any other pointy/ sharp pole monk weapon.


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## hejtmane (Dec 13, 2016)

Zardnaar said:


> Its not the damage but the AC and using a dex based weapon to rage with. Dex wis con to AC. Combine it with lizardfolk AC of 13 and yeah.




Yes but Barbarians have natural ac waste of time on the 13.
Now if I was going to Multi-classing Kensai I take a 3 whopping levels. The rest would be fighter more asi then I focus on Dex and Wisdom and con 3rd. 

Pretty darn simple variant Human GWM fighter dex build long term build 17 fighter 3 monk. Fighter gets more asi and by the time you hit 14 you have 3 attacks with the 2 handed weapon and you got pummel to give you a small boost along with GWF to give you roughly and extra dpr an attack. Natural ac easy to boost extra asi dex for ac and attack extra HP.

Flexibility want a crit based go champion want more control damage Battle Master want more survival ability go EK for Shield, Blurr and Absorb Elements (int is a dump stat) there you go use your reactions for the win


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## Thurmas (Dec 13, 2016)

Flamestrike said:


> No you dont. You use the Monk damage die for your Kensai weapon,_ but it doesnt become a Monk weapon._
> 
> So while you use your Kensai weapon, you lose access to your martial arts class feature.
> 
> ...




I don't think we're actually saying different things?  I agree with you on all of that. The only ability that is changed for being a Kensei Tradition is the third martial arts ability. You lose that. It also affects Flurry of Blows, as we both said.  The rest of the monk martial arts stays the same because the UA grants them both again, to Kensai weapons in addition to Monk weapons.

From the UA: "Whenever you wield a Kensei weapon, you choose	whether to use Dexterity or Strength for	the attack and damage	rolls of the	weapon, and you	choose whether to use your Martial Arts damage die	in place of the weapon’s damage die."

So I think we are just repeating what each of us is already saying.


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## hejtmane (Dec 13, 2016)

Flamestrike said:


> No you dont. You use the Monk damage die for your Kensai weapon,_ but it doesnt become a Monk weapon._
> 
> So while you use your Kensai weapon, you lose access to your martial arts class feature.
> 
> ...




That is just a waste of time might as while multi class 3 levels fighter or ranger and go way of the hand or long death and still use the short sword + all your martial arts. Then for two attacks you get duelist +2 plus  4 superiority dice, second wind and action surge all on short rest  or +2 damage + 1d8 for colossal or extra attack on multi hoard breaker and 3 spells on long rest.


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## Dualazi (Dec 13, 2016)

Pretty disappointed with this offering, which is a bummer since the fighter (barring the arcane archer) was pretty great on the whole.

The Kensei seems both incredibly bland, and also incredibly dependent on a bunch of RAW/RAI distinctions, which is always a huge recipe for trouble. They badly need to re-wrod and clarify their intent on this, because it seems to be wobbling between "abuse case" and "useless", which is also pulling the discussion away from the abilities themselves. Said abilities are also super boring, in my opinion, as they really just amount to generic accuracy increases across the board. The level 6 feature is particularly bad, double prof once per short rest, on a single weapon attack? Garbage. Sharpen the blade at least lasts for a full minute, and didn't one of the ranger re-works have a similar re-roll feature for misses?

I would really like this one to get a full re-do with uses for ki that actually represent supreme (magical) weapon wielding. There's so little creativity in this offering and it disappoints me greatly.

Tranquil monk is more creative on the other hand, but also might be the most niche subclass we've been shown so far. The features seem to work well enough, but the whole idea of nonviolence kind of clashes with the rest of the class' combat focus. Might be cool, but this is one archetype that I would actually be cool with being some form of prestige class/paragon path.


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## Gardens & Goblins (Dec 13, 2016)

I love the flexibility of the monk base class - in movement, per round options etc.

Love the flexibility the Kensai offers for character concepts - Lance wielding squire, bow (?) using nomad stalker, great-sword using mystic and so on...

But the PoT is my favourite. A 'diplomancer' type character, that can still throw a punch or two if needs. Striking to heal a target to full then taking it out of the fight for 10 rounds is very interesting - and brings fightiness and peace together. Level 17 ability is simply beautiful. Peace and calm people - enforced with extreme prejudice!

Overall, two classes that offer a host of character options _(in terms of functional mechanics rather than fluff)_. Good stuff.


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## Flamestrike (Dec 13, 2016)

Thurmas said:


> I don't think we're actually saying different things?  I agree with you on all of that. *The only ability that is changed for being a Kensei Tradition is the third martial arts ability.*




No its not the only thing that changes.

When a Kensai is using his weapon (unless its a shortsword) he loses access to martial arts. Full stop.

He doesnt get the increased damage, he loses the bonus action attack and he doesnt get the option of Dex to hit and damage._ He loses the entire class feature.

_A Kensai 15 who uses the attack action makes two attacks (he has the extra attack class feature) as an action.

If he uses [Jian/ longsword] and [Unarmed strike] the unarmed strike deals 1+Str damage, and uses Str to hit. He cant use his bonus action to make a third unarmed strike this turn.

He could also use flurry of blows on his turn, but each of the two attacks only deals 1+Str damage, and relies on Str to hit.



> From the UA: "Whenever you wield a Kensei weapon, you choose    whether to use Dexterity or Strength for    the attack and damage    rolls of the    weapon, and you    choose whether to use your Martial Arts damage die    in place of the weapon’s damage die."




I know. But the ability *doesnt turn the Kensai weapon into a Monk weapon.* And if you are weilding a weapon other than a Monk weapon *you lose access to the martial arts class feature.* '

Your unarmed damage drops to 1+Str damage, and you have to use Strength to hit. You cant use your bonus action to make a third unarmed strike this turn.

So a Jian/ Katana using Kensai becomes no better than a Commoner at martial arts the instant he starts weilding his Jian/ Katana.


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## Flamestrike (Dec 13, 2016)

Look:



> At 1st level, your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use unarmed strikes and *monk weapons, which are shortswords and any simple melee weapons that don’t have the two-handed or heavy property*.
> 
> You gain the following benefits *while you are unarmed or wielding only monk weapons *and you aren't wearing armor or wielding a shield:
> 
> ...




UA:



> UA: "Whenever you wield a Kensei weapon, you choose whether to use Dexterity or Strength for the attack and damage rolls of the weapon, and you choose whether to use your Martial Arts damage die in place of the weapon’s damage die."




The Kensai ability *doesnt make Kensai weapons monk weapons*. So you lose access to your martial arts class feature_ as soon as you pick up and use your Kensai weapon_ (your unarmed damage drops to 1+Str, your damage with non Kensai Monk weapons drops to base damage die, you're forced to use Str instead of Dex for unarmed attacks adn attacks with non Kensai monk weapons, and you cant take your bonus action attack anymore).

Id like to [slash with Jian/ Katana] and [kick] Lu Mi Bi - Crouching tiger Hidden dragon style. 

I cant do that with this class.


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## pemerton (Dec 13, 2016)

For a game that in many ways aims at simplicity, 5e seems to make a _really big deal_ of weapon-handedness, reloading, wielding vs holding vs carrying, etc.


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## pemerton (Dec 13, 2016)

[MENTION=6788736]Flamestrike[/MENTION], I don't think Thurmas disagrees with you:



Thurmas said:


> I agree with you on all of that. The only ability that is changed for being a Kensei Tradition is the third martial arts ability. You lose that. It also affects Flurry of Blows, as we both said.  The rest of the monk martial arts stays the same because the UA grants them both again, to Kensai weapons in addition to Monk weapons.



Thurmas recognises that, in wielding a non-monk kensei weapon, you lose the ability to make a bonus unarmed attack. And Thurmas recognises that wielding a non-monk kensei weapon downgrades FoB.

It just seems that, unlike you, Thurmas doesn't mind about these things, and is happy to have the other benefits of the Martial Arts feature (use DEX rather than STR, sub the Martial Arts die for the damage die listed on the equipment table) in respect of kensei weapons.


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## Flamestrike (Dec 13, 2016)

pemerton said:


> [MENTION=6788736]Flamestrike[/MENTION], I don't think Thurmas disagrees with you:
> 
> Thurmas recognises that, in wielding a non-monk kensei weapon, you lose the ability to make a bonus unarmed attack. And Thurmas recognises that wielding a non-monk kensei weapon downgrades FoB.
> 
> It just seems that, unlike you, Thurmas doesn't mind about these things, and is happy to have the other benefits of the Martial Arts feature (use DEX rather than STR, sub the Martial Arts die for the damage die listed on the equipment table) in respect of kensei weapons.




You dont have a problem with your martial arts being switched off the instant your Wuxia weapon master picks up a Jian, or your Kensai picks up his Katana?

A 20th level Jian/ Katana using Kensai with Dex 20 who dumped Str to 8 deals 0 damage unarmed on any round he attacks with his sword.

[Attack] Sword/ Kick + [flurry] Kick/ Kick deals - [1d10, Dex to hit and damage]+ 0 + 0 + 0 

It also costs him 1 point of Ki to do it.


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## pemerton (Dec 13, 2016)

Flamestrike said:


> You dont have a problem with your martial arts being switched off the instant your Wuxia weapon master picks up a Jian, or your Kensai picks up his Katana?



I didn't say anything about what I do or don't have a problem with (other than that the game's apparent obsession with hand-use and loading seems out of place). I'm just saying that I don't think  [MENTION=6866167]Thurmas[/MENTION] disagrees with you or has failed to notice the things you are pointing out. I think Thurmas doesn't mind these things.


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## pemerton (Dec 13, 2016)

Flamestrike said:


> A 20th level Jian/ Katana using Kensai with Dex 20 who dumped Str to 8 deals 0 damage unarmed on any round he attacks with his sword.
> 
> [Attack] Sword/ Kick + [flurry] Kick/ Kick deals - [1d10, Dex to hit and damage]+ 0 + 0 + 0
> 
> It also costs him 1 point of Ki to do it.



Presumably one wouldn't spend the Ki point in such circumstances.

It seems likely that the authors of the kensei did not intend this particular interaction - I think it's likely (given the pummel feature) that all they wanted to do was exclude the 3rd dot point of Martial Arts.

But even going with the literal wording, couldn't your example be solved by the monk going Sword-sheath-kick-kick-kick; and then, in the following round, drawing the sword again (and using pummel rather than flurry)? This doesn't deal with the AC issue, but I think I've seen this sort of thing in martial arts films.


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## Flamestrike (Dec 13, 2016)

pemerton said:


> I didn't say anything about what I do or don't have a problem with (other than that the game's apparent obsession with hand-use and loading seems out of place). I'm just saying that I don't think  @_*Thurmas*_ disagrees with you or has failed to notice the things you are pointing out. I think Thurmas doesn't mind these things.




He was under the impression that the Kensai treats martial weapons as monk weapons [other than the bonus action attack].

Thats not true. The Kensai treats martial weapons as Kensai weapons. Kensai weapons share a lot of similarities with Monk weapons (Dex to hit and different damage die), but they shut down the martial arts class feature entirely.

Its an important difference. Assume a Dex 16, Str 8 3rd level Monk:

A Naginata [spear] using OHM Monk 3 [Str 8, Dex 16] deals [1d8+3] and [1d4+3] with martial arts. If he flurries he instead deals 2 x [1d4+3] damage attacks in addition to his [1d8+3] naginata attack. All attacks use Dex. 

Both flurry attacks knock his target prone, push it back or deny it of reactions.

A Naginata [halberd] using Kensai Monk 3 [Str 8, Dex 16] deals [1d10+3] and _cant use martial arts at all_. Instead he can add 1d4 bludgeoning damage as a bonus action. If he doesnt add the +d4 bludgeoning damamge, and instead flurries as his bonus action, he deals 2 x [0] damage attacks that both use Str to hit in addition to his [1d10+3] dex based naginata attack.

The spear using OHM is in all ways, better than the Kensai.


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## Flamestrike (Dec 13, 2016)

pemerton said:


> Presumably one wouldn't spend the Ki point in such circumstances.
> 
> It seems likely that the authors of the kensei did not intend this particular interaction - I think it's likely (given the pummel feature) that all they wanted to do was exclude the 3rd dot point of Martial Arts.




I agree. I desperately wanted a weapon master monk [I so want to play a Wuxia Jian using monk], but this sucker is worded poorly at best.



> But even going with the literal wording, couldn't your example be solved by the monk going Sword-sheath-kick-kick-kick; and then, in the following round, drawing the sword again (and using pummel rather than flurry)? This doesn't deal with the AC issue, but I think I've seen this sort of thing in martial arts films.




If many of a weapon master monks class features only work when he sheathes his weapon (which in itself strips him of his entire archetypes special abilities and core schtick), we have a problem on many levels.


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## kalil (Dec 13, 2016)

That Kensai is pretty darn terribad isn't it? I mean, I like the concept and all, but the execution leaves a lot to be desired IMHO.


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## pemerton (Dec 13, 2016)

Flamestrike said:


> I desperately wanted a weapon master monk [I so want to play a Wuxia Jian using monk], but this sucker is worded poorly at best.



This isn't the first time these sorts of problems have occurred. The 4e monk has counter-intuitively precise wording in order to make weapons relevant sometimes (eg OAs) but not other times (using core attack powers, which have set damage dice a bit like the 5e martial arts die); and then gives the monk an "unarmed strike" feature to give it a longsword-equivalent "weapon" to use if otherwise unarmed. Clunky.

The brawler fighter in Martial Power 2 received errata not too long after publication to try and make sense of its class features that had the purpose of trying to keep its non-weapon attacks (grapples, shoves, etc) on par with weapon attacks.

I think this is a result of the particular style of granularity with which D&D sets up mechanical expectations for attacks, weapons, damage dice etc.


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## Thurmas (Dec 13, 2016)

pemerton said:


> [MENTION=6788736]Flamestrike[/MENTION], I don't think Thurmas disagrees with you:
> 
> Thurmas recognises that, in wielding a non-monk kensei weapon, you lose the ability to make a bonus unarmed attack. And Thurmas recognises that wielding a non-monk kensei weapon downgrades FoB.
> 
> It just seems that, unlike you, Thurmas doesn't mind about these things, and is happy to have the other benefits of the Martial Arts feature (use DEX rather than STR, sub the Martial Arts die for the damage die listed on the equipment table) in respect of kensei weapons.




Thank you for recognizing that I recognized that.  That's exactly what I was trying to say.


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## Thurmas (Dec 13, 2016)

Flamestrike said:


> He was under the impression that the Kensai treats martial weapons as monk weapons [other than the bonus action attack].
> 
> Thats not true. The Kensai treats martial weapons as Kensai weapons. Kensai weapons share a lot of similarities with Monk weapons (Dex to hit and different damage die), but they shut down the martial arts class feature entirely.
> 
> ...




That's not what I was saying or the impression I had at all.  I realized all of that, and I believe said so multiple times.  The difference is you were focusing on the unarmed strikes, or lack there of, and I was focusing on the shiny new weapons the Monk can use effectively.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 13, 2016)

I don't think the level 17 tranquility Monk is that good without some sort of summoner either. I don't think you will see your friends go down that much.


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## Flamestrike (Dec 13, 2016)

Here is how I'm gonna run it:

*Path of the Kensei (3rd level):*

When you choose    this tradition at 3rd level, you learn to extend your knowledge of the martial arts beyond the standard array of monk weapons.

Select one martial or simple weapon without the Heavy quality (other than the lance) to be your Kensai weapon. This weapon is now treated as a Monk weapon for you. 

In addition, when you attack with your Kensai weapon, you may replace the weapon damage die with 1d10 unless the weapon also has the reach quality. At 11th level in this class, the increased damage die increases to 2d6. At 17th level in this class it increases to 2d8.

Finally, choose one of the following options:

1) Weapon master: Select one of the Dueling or Great weapon fighting styles. You learn this fighting style. In addition you can expend 1 point of ki to gain advantage on any checks or saves to avoid being disarmed of your weapon, or that targets your weapon.
2) Dual weapon kata: When you are not wearing armor or using a shield, and wield two Monk weapons at the same time, you gain +1 to your AC. When you use your flurry of blows attack, you can expend an additional point of ki and resolve one of the attacks with a monk weapon instead of an unarmed strike.
3) Zen archery: You must have selected a bow to use this option. You gain the Archery fighting style. In addition as a bonus action on your turn you can expend 2 points of Ki to take careful aim at a creature you can see that is within range of a ranged weapon you are weilding. Until the end of this turn, your succesful ranged attacks against this target ignore 3/4 and 1/2 cover and deals additional damage equal to 2 + half your Monk level. 

*One with your Weapon (6th level):*

Magic weapons: Your attacks with monk weapons are treated as magical. 

Stare down: As an action on your turn you can expend 1 point of Ki and attempt to stare down or otherwise seek to intimidate your target (pulling your attack at the last second, landing a close shot with a bow, staring your target down, a flourish of your blade etc). Choose a single target that can see you within 60'. That target must pass a [DC 8 + Wis + Prof] Wisdom save or be frightened of you. The target can re-roll the save at the end of each turn to end the condition, becoming immune to this ability for 24 hours on a save.

*Un-erring Accuracy (11th level)*

You may spend 1 Ki point before making an attack with a monk weapon to make the attack with advantage to the attack roll.

*Deadly Strike (17th level)*

When you use your Unnerring accuracy ability, and both attack rolls would hit your target, the attack is a critical hit.


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## Valetudo (Dec 13, 2016)

Flamestrike said:


> You dont have a problem with your martial arts being switched off the instant your Wuxia weapon master picks up a Jian, or your Kensai picks up his Katana?
> 
> A 20th level Jian/ Katana using Kensai with Dex 20 who dumped Str to 8 deals 0 damage unarmed on any round he attacks with his sword.
> 
> ...



just to let you know, you cant do less than 1 point of damage. Even with a penalty.


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## Flamestrike (Dec 13, 2016)

Valetudo said:


> just to let you know, you cant do less than 1 point of damage. Even with a penalty.




Q: Can damage be reduced to 0 by resistance or another form of damage reduction? 

A: There is no damage minimum in the rules, so it is possible to deal 0 damage with an attack, a spell, or another effect.

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-june-2016


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## Flamestrike (Dec 13, 2016)

shintashi said:


> Pretty neat stuff. Here's how I ran it.
> http://www.enworld.org/forum/rpgdownloads.php?do=download&downloadid=1301
> (its a pdf document)




Jesus man, nice work. Detailed.

I think I'll stick with the monk archetype though. It does much of the same fluff but in an easier to grasp package.

A Monk Kensai 17/ Fighter 3 (Samurai or Battlemaster) pretty much spits out as the kind of Kensai/ Wuxia class Im after.


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## Valetudo (Dec 13, 2016)

Ok, so the kensei is a mess. But this is a UA article, so keep that in mind. I dont like how right away people are talking about using a belt of giant strength with a longbow or GWm with the dex stat. This is supposed to be a green destiny weilding or polearm using subclass and it doesnt look like wizards realize why people want a martial weapon using monk. I dont want a greatsword weilding monk. I want a longsword weilding monk, and I think most of the other people that arent just looking at DPR are inline with me.

Now the doped monk. I know there are people out there that want to play pacifists, Ive just never actually met one. Its such a niche choice that I face palm myself seeing it being chosen over a sacred fist subclass. Not I could see a story where the party has to escort a npc who doesnt like violence, but that doesnt mean wizards should waste design space for what essentually is a healbot.

 Im a monk fan and these two are duds. Kensei needs a total overhaul and tranq monk would never be chosen any of the people Ive ever played with, so its useless for me.


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## Valetudo (Dec 13, 2016)

Flamestrike said:


> Q: Can damage be reduced to 0 by resistance or another form of damage reduction?
> 
> A: There is no damage minimum in the rules, so it is possible to deal 0 damage with an attack, a spell, or another effect.
> 
> http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-june-2016



damage reduction can reduce to zero, restance cannot. Neither can a stat penalty. Even so using ki points for an extra 2 points of damage is rather silly. Is what I would have said , but I stand corrected.


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## Flamestrike (Dec 13, 2016)

Actually, thats a bit strong. Im gonna gut some of  the combat stuff, tone down dual weapon kata, and add in a ribbon at mid level. Like how the OHM rolls.

Damage is already spiking with the increased damage dice, so it needs more OOC and less combat oomph.

*Path of the Kensei (3rd level):*

When you choose    this tradition at 3rd level, you learn to extend your knowledge of the martial arts beyond the standard array of monk weapons.

Select one martial or simple weapon without the Heavy quality (other than the lance) to be your Kensai weapon. This weapon is now treated as a Monk weapon for you. 

In addition, when you attack with your Kensai weapon, you may replace the weapon damage die with 1d10 unless the weapon also has the reach quality. At 11th level in this class, the increased damage die increases to 2d6. At 17th level in this class it increases to 2d8.

Finally, choose one of the following options:

1) Weapon master: Select one of the Dueling or Great weapon fighting styles. You learn this fighting style. In addition you can expend 1 point of ki to gain advantage on any checks or saves to avoid being disarmed of your weapon, or that targets your weapon.
2) Dual weapon kata: When you are not wearing armor or using a shield, and wield two Monk weapons at the same time, you gain +1 to your AC. When you use your flurry of blows attack, you can choose to make a single attack with one of your monk weapons in place of making two unarmed attacks.
3) Zen archery: You must have selected a bow to use this option. You gain the Archery fighting style. In addition as a bonus action on your turn you can expend 2 points of Ki to take careful aim at a creature you can see that is within range of a ranged weapon you are weilding. Until the end of this turn, your succesful ranged attacks against this target ignore 3/4 and 1/2 cover and deals additional damage equal to 2 + half your Monk level. 

*One with your Weapon (6th level):*

Your attacks with monk weapons are treated as magical. 

*Stare down (11th level)*

As an action on your turn you can expend 1 point of Ki and attempt to stare down or otherwise seek to intimidate your target (pulling your attack at the last second, landing a close shot with a bow, staring your target down, a flourish of your blade etc). Choose a single target that can see you within 60'. That target must pass a [DC 8 + Wis + Prof] Wisdom save or be frightened of you. The target can re-roll the save at the end of each turn to end the condition, becoming immune to this ability for 24 hours on a save.

*Deadly Strike (17th level)*

When you attack a target and have advantage on the attack roll, and both attack rolls would hit your target, the attack is a critical hit.

That feels a bit more balanced.


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## Flamestrike (Dec 13, 2016)

Valetudo said:


> damage reduction can reduce to zero, restance cannot. Neither can a stat penalty.




No, they all can reduce damage to zero.

If you hit someone with a sword, roll 1 on the die, and have a Str of 8, you deal 0 damage.

Check your PHB.


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## Flamestrike (Dec 13, 2016)

Valetudo said:


> Ok, so the kensei is a mess. But this is a UA article, so keep that in mind. I dont like how right away people are talking about using a belt of giant strength with a longbow or GWm with the dex stat. This is supposed to be a green destiny weilding or polearm using subclass and it doesnt look like wizards realize why people want a martial weapon using monk. I dont want a greatsword weilding monk. I want a longsword weilding monk, and I think most of the other people that arent just looking at DPR are inline with me.
> 
> Now the doped monk. I know there are people out there that want to play pacifists, Ive just never actually met one. Its such a niche choice that I face palm myself seeing it being chosen over a sacred fist subclass. Not I could see a story where the party has to escort a npc who doesnt like violence, but that doesnt mean wizards should waste design space for what essentually is a healbot.
> 
> Im a monk fan and these two are duds. Kensei needs a total overhaul and tranq monk would never be chosen any of the people Ive ever played with, so its useless for me.




Exactly. As the class is written, all monastaries are suddenly going to be spitting out Monks using claymores.

Not the Wuxia Jian weilding Croching Tiger Hidden Dragon class I had hoped for.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 13, 2016)

To fix it probably make several weapons such as a Long Sword a Monk weapon and keep things like Polearms and great weapons out of the mix.

 You get a +1 damage upgrade trading in the knocking em prone thing in comparison to the Way of Fists.


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## pemerton (Dec 13, 2016)

Valetudo said:


> just to let you know, you cant do less than 1 point of damage. Even with a penalty.



Just to add to [MENTION=6788736]Flamestrike[/MENTION]'s reply: from the SRD, p 96: "With a penalty, it is possible to deal 0 damage, but never negative damage." Interestingly, this sentence is missing from the corresponding (and otherwise identical) section on pp 74-75 of the Basic PDF.


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## JPL (Dec 13, 2016)

I think the problem with the kensai is that you have a "sword saint" who probably doesn't start using a katana until 3rd level.  I guess there are workarounds . . . just use short sword stats and call it a day?


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## Ilbranteloth (Dec 13, 2016)

lowkey13 said:


> And the tranquility monk? Again, not much use I would see for it in most campaigns. Reminds me of the cloistered cleric; great conceptually, who wants to play it?




That's exactly why I really like the tranquility monk. It can easily be flavored as a western-style monk. I've got to go through it a bit more to see how it will really play out, but I suspect it will be a big part of my campaign.


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## Flamestrike (Dec 13, 2016)

JPL said:


> I think the problem with the kensai is that you have a "sword saint" who probably doesn't start using a katana until 3rd level.  I guess there are workarounds . . . just use short sword stats and call it a day?




Use a bokken. Its a refluffed staff (d6, d8 versatile)

View attachment 79109

Plus is pretty badass to go into dungeon with a wooden training sword.


----------



## TwoSix (Dec 13, 2016)

Valetudo said:


> Ok, so the kensei is a mess. But this is a UA article, so keep that in mind. I dont like how right away people are talking about using a belt of giant strength with a longbow or GWm with the dex stat. This is supposed to be a green destiny weilding or polearm using subclass and it doesnt look like wizards realize why people want a martial weapon using monk. I dont want a greatsword weilding monk. I want a longsword weilding monk, and I think most of the other people that arent just looking at DPR are inline with me.



To be clear, I absolutely DO want a unarmored greatsword wielder using Dex, and kensei is a failure if it doesn't allow me to do that.  It's too awesome of an aesthetic to ignore.


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## Yunru (Dec 13, 2016)

Highly ironic flavour their. My longbow Kensei Monk can deal an additional 1d4 damage with the weapon?

Mostly because for some reason it's not limited to melee weapons.


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## Sacrosanct (Dec 13, 2016)

Yunru said:


> Highly ironic flavour their. My longbow Kensei Monk can deal an additional 1d4 damage with the weapon?
> 
> Mostly because for some reason it's not limited to melee weapons.





Man, of only someone had thought to bring that up before.   

Sorry, I wouldn't pick on you except it's "there" not "their"


----------



## Yunru (Dec 13, 2016)

Sacrosanct said:


> Man, of only someone had thought to bring that up before.
> 
> Sorry, I wouldn't pick on you except it's "there" not "their"



They're's no reason to nitpick 
Still, bludgeoning damage from a longbow? Do I throw it at them, boomerang style?


----------



## JPL (Dec 13, 2016)

I thought about the bokken idea, as there are tales of Musashi doing that sort of thing . . . but that really feels more appropriate for the high-level master, as opposed to the 1st level guy.  

I suppose this kensai thing works if you assume a training method where you start everyone out on the simple weapons, and eventually upgrade to the martial weapons.  Don't like waiting?  Great.  Get out of this dojo and go be a fighter.  Wisdom is not a dump stat in this dojo.


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## TwoSix (Dec 13, 2016)

Yunru said:


> Highly ironic flavour their. My longbow Kensei Monk can deal an additional 1d4 damage with the weapon?
> 
> Mostly because for some reason it's not limited to melee weapons.



Jeremy Crawford already clarified on Twitter that pummel damage from a distance is not intended.


----------



## Valetudo (Dec 13, 2016)

TwoSix said:


> To be clear, I absolutely DO want a unarmored greatsword wielder using Dex, and kensei is a failure if it doesn't allow me to do that.  It's too awesome of an aesthetic to ignore.



Look, if you have a greatsword weilding character concept that you want to play. Im for that. If your just looking for a munchkin build that abuses GWM and can make STR a dump stat, Im not cool with that. If you want to make a pc who resembles somebody from a movie, book, or game. I totally agree. But if its just about dpr meta, im not on board. I think the best way to have done the kensei is to have made it kinda like a light dipping into fighter. Martial prof. that can be used as monk weapons, then maybe a fighting style and whatever.


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## TwoSix (Dec 13, 2016)

Valetudo said:


> Look, if you have a greatsword weilding character concept that you want to play. Im for that. If your just looking for a munchkin build that abuses GWM and can make STR a dump stat, Im not cool with that. If you want to make a pc who resembles somebody from a movie, book, or game. I totally agree. But if its just about dpr meta, im not on board. I think the best way to have done the kensei is to have made it kinda like a light dipping into fighter. Martial prof. that can be used as monk weapons, then maybe a fighting style and whatever.



Realistically, I want it because I love the aesthetic (I loved the 4e avenger for the same reason) AND because a GWM monk using Dex sounds pretty great from a mechanical perspective.


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## Valetudo (Dec 13, 2016)

TwoSix said:


> Realistically, I want it because I love the aesthetic (I loved the 4e avenger for the same reason) AND because a GWM monk using Dex sounds pretty great from a mechanical perspective.



the 4e avenger was a cool class. The problem I have with this kensei is that, first off is a mess designwise, second it seems really meta instead of flavorwise if that makes sense to you. One thing is that GWM was never meant to work with the dex stat. POM doesnt bother me as much because the monk already had FOB. The 4e avenger was made specifically for that edition, this subclass is not balanced at all right now. Im not saying that the kensei shouldnt be prof. In greatswords. Im saying that dex and gwm where never meant to work together and the design team are breaking their own rules.


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## Flamestrike (Dec 13, 2016)

JPL said:


> I thought about the bokken idea, as there are tales of Musashi doing that sort of thing . . . but that really feels more appropriate for the high-level master, as opposed to the 1st level guy.
> 
> I suppose this kensai thing works if you assume a training method where you start everyone out on the simple weapons, and eventually upgrade to the martial weapons.  Don't like waiting?  Great.  Get out of this dojo and go be a fighter.  Wisdom is not a dump stat in this dojo.




Training sword for the training levels bro.


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## Yunru (Dec 13, 2016)

Valetudo said:


> the 4e avenger was a cool class. The problem I have with this kensei is that, first off is a mess designwise, second it seems really meta instead of flavorwise if that makes sense to you. One thing is that GWM was never meant to work with the dex stat. POM doesnt bother me as much because the monk already had FOB. The 4e avenger was made specifically for that edition, this subclass is not balanced at all right now. Im not saying that the kensei shouldnt be prof. In greatswords. Im saying that dex and gwm where never meant to work together and the design team are breaking their own rules.



But they already do. It's called Sharpshooter.


----------



## TwoSix (Dec 13, 2016)

Yunru said:


> But they already do. It's called Sharpshooter.



Agh, ninja'ed.


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## JPL (Dec 13, 2016)

Flamestrike said:


> Training sword for the training levels bro.




If you're just gonna stay in the dojo and train, fine, but if I'm actually going to go fight goblins, I at least want a nail through the end of that training sword.

No, I think I've sold myself on the idea at lower levels, they give you a staff or some escrima sticks or whatnot, and if you show sufficient progress, THEN Master Po walks you down to the armory and gives you a glaive-guisarme or whatever.


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## Sir Brennen (Dec 13, 2016)

I'm not thrilled that the kensei lends itself to be min-maxed for a greatsword. But at the same time, I'm not against having that as an option for people who want to play a more anime style martial arts weapon master. (All we need is to bring back 3E's Monkey Grip feat and the image is complete). But other weapon choices should be encouraged without being sub-par options.

Not doing indepth math checks to see the impacts, but a couple of suggestions:

• Whenever you wield a kensei weapon,  you choose whether to use your Martial Arts damage die in place of the weapon’s damage die. *If the weapon does not have the two-handed property*, you choose whether to use Dexterity or Strength for the attack and damage rolls of the weapon. *Kensei weapons are considered Monk Weapons with regard to unarmed strike damage and bonus attacks from the Martial Arts class feature.* 

With that (or something less wordy), the zwei-hander characters are going to have to invest in Str a little more to optimize, which I think is fair. Fighters have to give up a shield to use those types of weapons; Monks may have to sacrifice a little Dex for more damage.

• When you take the Attack action on your turn and hit a target with a kensei weapon, you can use a bonus action to pummel the target, dealing additional bludgeoning damage *equal to your Martial Arts die* to that target and to any other target you hit with the weapon as part of the Attack.

Here, I think the pummel damage is still attractive vs Flurry of Blows, even allowing Kensei weapons to be Monk weapons. Especially as it doesn't require Ki to fuel. And the +2 AC can be gained with a more effective unarmed attack.



> Jeremy Crawford already clarified on Twitter that pummel damage from a distance is not intended.




Well, that's kinda good news. Means there's still room for the zen archer to get his own subclass.


----------



## Flamestrike (Dec 13, 2016)

JPL said:


> If you're just gonna stay in the dojo and train, fine, but if I'm actually going to go fight goblins, I at least want a nail through the end of that training sword.
> 
> No, I think I've sold myself on the idea at lower levels, they give you a staff or some escrima sticks or whatnot, and if you show sufficient progress, THEN *Master Po walks you down to the armory and gives you a glaive-guisarme* or whatever.




And when you use that glaive, you suddenly forget how to be a martial artist, and just become a really really really crappy fighter.

Unless you just hold the glaive and don't actually wield it, In which case you become a subpar monk, lose access to other Kensai class features, but get +2 to your AC.


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## Yunru (Dec 13, 2016)

Well I'm just glad Bugbear Whip Ninjas can be a thing.


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## Flamestrike (Dec 13, 2016)

Yunru said:


> Well I'm just glad Bugbear Whip Ninjas can be a thing.




Shadow Monk 5/6 + assassin x. Works much better as a whip ninja.

And lol!


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## Valetudo (Dec 13, 2016)

Yunru said:


> But they already do. It's called Sharpshooter.



How so? And the sharpshooter is also a UA class.


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## hejtmane (Dec 13, 2016)

Flamestrike said:


> Shadow Monk 5/6 + assassin x. Works much better as a whip ninja.
> 
> And lol!




Wait you are flamestrike you should be supporting Bug Bear/spell sniper EK7 + assassin for the flaming whip Ninja and the win


----------



## Arial Black (Dec 13, 2016)

I do understand the hatred for the d4, but don't forget that even though the d4 is just as easy to drop on the floor and lose as any other die, it is _much_ easier to find a dropped d4 than any other die!

How? Just take your shoes and socks off and walk around barefoot for a few seconds, and you _will_ find that d4!

(Followed by a short, informal walkabout)


----------



## Flamestrike (Dec 13, 2016)

Arial Black said:


> I do understand the hatred for the d4, but don't forget that even though the d4 is just as easy to drop on the floor and lose as any other die, it is _much_ easier to find a dropped d4 than any other die!
> 
> How? Just take your shoes and socks off and walk around barefoot for a few seconds, and you _will_ find that d4!
> 
> (Followed by a short, informal walkabout)




The caltrops of the dice world.


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## Sacrosanct (Dec 13, 2016)

Arial Black said:


> I do understand the hatred for the d4, but don't forget that even though the d4 is just as easy to drop on the floor and lose as any other die, it is _much_ easier to find a dropped d4 than any other die!
> 
> How? Just take your shoes and socks off and walk around barefoot for a few seconds, and you _will_ find that d4!
> 
> (Followed by a short, informal walkabout)




I have a cat.  And hardwood floors.  Any dropped dice are found within minutes.  This literally happened to me about a week ago.  I dropped my dice box and _thought _I picked everyone one up.  two minutes later, I hear a dice skittering across the floor as teh cat is playing with it. 

"Thanks kitty, you found a dice!"  And I go back to what I was doing.  Two minutes later I hear the skittering of another dice.


The cat found FIVE dice this way.  I am pretty sure that is all that was left.  I hope...


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## Satyrn (Dec 13, 2016)

Sacrosanct said:


> The cat found FIVE dice this way.



I can haz critical hit?


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## DemoMonkey (Dec 13, 2016)

Perhaps the Kensei design intent was to make a Strength based monk more feasible.

With high Strength your non-martial art unarmed attacks will do more damage than they would with high Dex, you can use Strength with the weapon attack, and the +2 AC from holding a Kensei weapon will go part way to compensating for the lower Dex on your AC.


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## dagger (Dec 13, 2016)

(((Mike Mearls))) &#8207 [MENTION=32417]MikeM[/MENTION]earls 
Quick UA clarification - kensai weapons are not monk weapons #wotcstaff

--------------------------------
John Appleton ‏@jaa0109  
 [MENTION=32417]MikeM[/MENTION]earls ....there's 10 pages of discussion on this on GitP. Not making them Monk weapons seems unnecessarily convoluted.

 (((Mike Mearls))) &#8207 [MENTION=32417]MikeM[/MENTION]earls  
@jaa0109 yeah, a little hacky, hence the playtest #wotcstaff

----------------------------------------------

Jeremy Crawford
‏@JeremyECrawford Jeremy Crawford
The Martial Arts feature defines what a monk weapon is. Nothing else is a monk weapon unless a feature explicitly says otherwise.


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## hejtmane (Dec 13, 2016)

DemoMonkey said:


> Perhaps the Kensei design intent was to make a Strength based monk more feasible.
> 
> With high Strength your non-martial art unarmed attacks will do more damage than they would with high Dex, you can use Strength with the weapon attack, and the +2 AC from holding a Kensei weapon will go part way to compensating for the lower Dex on your AC.





It fails


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## Fritzo (Dec 13, 2016)

I wanted to rewrite the Path of the Kensei. The intention with this is to take away the unarmed strike given with martial arts and replace it with the pummel ability as from my reading it sounds like that was their intention anyway.

• You gain proficiency with three martial weapons of your choice. A martial weapon is considered a kensei weapon* and becomes a monk weapon for you if you’re proficient with it.*
• Get rid of the second point about the damage die it's no longer needed.
• If you make a *single unarmed strike on your turn as a bonus action* while wielding a kensei weapon. *You instead pummel the target(s) dealing an additional 1d4 bludeoning damage to each creature you hit with your kensei weapon this turn.*
• If you* use your flurry of blows and are wielding a kensei weapon*, you can use that weapon to defend yourself. You gain a +2 bonus to AC until the start of your next turn while you are not incapacitated and the weapon is in your hand.

I think this would work. A problem is the pummel isn't melee only but i'll let someone else have a go at that.


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## hejtmane (Dec 13, 2016)

Fritzo said:


> I wanted to rewrite the Path of the Kensei. The intention with this is to take away the unarmed strike given with martial arts and replace it with the pummel ability as from my reading it sounds like that was their intention anyway.
> 
> • You gain proficiency with three martial weapons of your choice. A martial weapon is considered a kensei weapon and becomes a monk weapon for you if you’re proficient with it.
> • Get rid of the second point about the damage die it's no longer needed.
> ...




The issue is pummel blows because it does not scale and can only be used once on the same target, the +2ac is worthless because it reduces flurry of blows to garbage with out tavern brawler you be better off using that bonus action and ki point for patient defense or step of the wind then to use flurry of blows for +2ac

You lose out on Damage with Flurry of blows and clearly behind in DPR very quickly compared to the other monks. You can do better Multi classing than you can using this class. Not to mention it is ripe for exploiting with a 3 level dip.

Sorry in the current form it fails on so many levels; I was excited at the initial concept but realized after digging into the details it fails on so many levels


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## Fritzo (Dec 13, 2016)

Read what i wrote again i'll bold the changes to make them more clearer. You still get a flurry of blows that uses the martial arts die. But flurry of blows is better every time with the ac increase. You lose out slightly with the pummel replacement but i thought that was the designers intention anyway.


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## Sir Brennen (Dec 13, 2016)

Fritzo said:


> Read what i wrote again i'll bold the changes to make them more clearer. You still get a flurry of blows that uses the martial arts die. But flurry of blows is better every time with the ac increase. You lose out slightly with the pummel replacement but i thought that was the designers intention anyway.




Why? If the point of the class is a weapon master, why make the weapon extra damage option worse than an unarmed strike? Hence my suggestion earlier to have the pummel damage be equal to the Martial Arts die (but also restrict heavy/2-handed weapons a bit).

Also, this ties the AC boost to Ki expenditure, which I don't think is the intent, either.


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## Fritzo (Dec 13, 2016)

Isn't the 1d4 there to balance some of the damage done with the 1d12 and 2d6 weapons? Your suggestion would work too restricting the weapons with the higher damage dice. Either way something is getting lost. My method still allows players to choose their weapon of choice though and get unarmed strikes at a cost.

Going to read your post to make sure i fully understand your intention.

Ok reading you post i see that it would just make the Monks that take Heavier weapons more MAD that would be more annoying for me. But i guess it'd balance out? Your method would get more damage, Mine would get better ac and dexterity pikes


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## Azzy (Dec 13, 2016)

dagger said:


> (((Mike Mearls))) ‏ [MENTION=32417]MikeM[/MENTION]earls
> Quick UA clarification - kensai weapons are not monk weapons #wotcstaff
> 
> --------------------------------
> ...




Not digging this.


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## The-Magic-Sword (Dec 13, 2016)

Hmm, the Kensai is cool in that I see what they're going for, but it badly needs another pass- from what i can tell the purpose is that as a Kensai, you give up your normal bonus action shenanigans for an aoe feature that's a little lackluster.

I love the direction of being able to use all kinds of martial weapons and stuff though.


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## BookBarbarian (Dec 13, 2016)

I'm more and more convinced that even though Kensei weapons are not intended to be monk weapons, it actually doesn't hurt anything if they are. I think will play this way, mostly ignoring the pummel feature and give feedback when WotC releases their survey.


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## OB1 (Dec 13, 2016)

dagger said:


> Jeremy Crawford
> ‏@JeremyECrawford Jeremy Crawford
> The Martial Arts feature defines what a monk weapon is. Nothing else is a monk weapon unless a feature explicitly says otherwise.




*Path of the Kensei *- When you choose this tradition at 3rd level, you learn to extend your knowledge of the *martial arts* beyond the standard array of monk weapons.

I don't know, that sounds like specific beating general to me.  I'd rule that this line allows you to make monk martial arts strikes as per the PHB rules, thus giving you several options.

Attack twice with weapon, use pummel to deal auto damage to those you hit
Attack twice with weapon, use bonus to make 1 or 2 (flurry) unarmed strike(s), gain +2 to AC
Attack once with weapon, one with unarmed strike, use bonus to make 1 or (flurry) 2 unarmed strike(s), gain +2 to AC
Attack once with weapon, once with unarmed strike, use bonus to pummel 1 target, gain +2 to AC


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## lkj (Dec 14, 2016)

Mearls also stated on twitter that the Kensai weapons are too good to use with flurry. So that's the logic. Based on his other comments, he seems to be unhappy with the klugey-ness. They probably suspected as much but wanted to see how people would react.

We'll probably get a more elegant solution in the final go.

AD


----------



## Chaosmancer (Dec 14, 2016)

The-Magic-Sword said:


> Hmm, the Kensai is cool in that I see what they're going for, but it badly needs another pass- from what i can tell the purpose is that as a Kensai, you give up your normal bonus action shenanigans for an aoe feature that's a little lackluster.
> 
> I love the direction of being able to use all kinds of martial weapons and stuff though.




As far as I can tell, the intent is to make great weapon wielding monks. 

The Pummel is not an AOE, it hits at best 2 targets (barring Multiclassing into Fighter and using Action Surge). 

What bothers me about it is you have two sets of abilities, you have wielding the big weapon, and you have accuracy buffs. 

Let's say the 3rd level stuff gets fixed, what are we left with? Weapon is magic, increase accuracy for 1 attack once per rest, make your weapon super magical (for accuracy and damage) and re-roll a missed attack. 

You want to play a super-amazing Heavy Weapon Character: Do you choose Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin or Kensei? All the other classes support big melee weapons better than the Kensei does, so really for most of the game (until level 11) you are a middling weapon wielder with monk abilities. 

If the concept is being a great weapon wielder.... play something else would be my first recommendation, because nothing in the Kensei is worth trading the abilities of the other classes for if your goal is to be a big weapon wielding monster. 



On the Tranquility monk, it is important to note that the monk has no penalties for getting in combat, other than losing Sanctuary once he actually starts fighting...

*Re-reads sanctuary*

ROFLOL

You can totally play a Jackie Chan character, who runs into a large group of enemies, and keeps asking to not fight, while the enemy keeps getting their blows redirected into each other, showing that violence hurts you more than the person you aimed it at. 

That is almost too perfect, crank wisdom for that save DC and allow the orc horde to tear itself apart while trying to kill the guy in the middle. 

Then, you can still break sanctuary and be a normal monk, taking down enemies who refuse to listen to reason to protect the innocent. The flavor isn't pure pacifist, but "violence is my last resort" type of character.


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## MechaPilot (Dec 14, 2016)

Chaosmancer said:


> On the Tranquility monk, it is important to note that the monk has no penalties for getting in combat, other than losing Sanctuary once he actually starts fighting...
> 
> *Re-reads sanctuary*
> 
> ...




While that's an amusing concept, it's not really how the spell works.  The attacker has to choose a new target or lose the attack or spell.  Presumably, this is what an attacker would do instead of targeting an ally.


----------



## SkidAce (Dec 14, 2016)

Jeremy Crawford &#8207 [MENTION=4036]Jeremy[/MENTION]ECrawford  6m6 minutes ago
Jeremy Crawford Retweeted Tyler Bechstein
Regarding the current version of the kensei, it has a few errors. The main correction: a kensei chooses Str/Dex for a Str weapon only. #DnDJeremy Crawford added,


Tyler Bechstein @wetsail [MENTION=4036]Jeremy[/MENTION]ECrawford If you could immediately change or tweak one thing about the new UA Monk features, what would it be?


----------



## Thiago Rosa Shinken (Dec 14, 2016)

ad_hoc said:


> At level 5 you can attack for 2d6+4, 1d6+4, 1d6+4, and get +2 AC all for no Ki cost. That's pretty good.



Not really. A greatsword is not a monk weapon. Therefore, you can't use martial arts if you are wielding one. Therefore, your unarmed attacks only deal 1 + Strength modifer damage.


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## Leatherhead (Dec 14, 2016)

lkj said:


> Mearls also stated on twitter that the Kensai weapons are too good to use with flurry. So that's the logic. Based on his other comments, he seems to be unhappy with the klugey-ness. They probably suspected as much but wanted to see how people would react.
> 
> We'll probably get a more elegant solution in the final go.
> 
> AD




That's only "true" if you think that the Greatsword and Greataxe are the only Kensei weapons. Every other non-shortsword weapon is getting hosed by those two, and the shortsword is still outperforming those two greatweapons in normal situations.


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## cbwjm (Dec 14, 2016)

Something I like about the Tranquillity monk is the image of an ally getting all beat up, the monk charging in, doing a flurry of blows, striking two enemies and then touching the brow of their ally with their index finger and healing them up.


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## hejtmane (Dec 14, 2016)

Leatherhead said:


> That's only "true" if you think that the Greatsword and Greataxe are the only Kensei weapons. Every other non-shortsword weapon is getting hosed by those two, and the shortsword is still outperforming those two greatweapons in normal situations.




Then what is the point of taking the sub class pummel is useless you are better off taking the martial arts attack. In fact that is such a crappy argument because I can already just multi classing with 3 fighter or ranger get duelist +2 and more giving me better flexibility still a weapon master oh and I get all the goodies out of the better sub classes way of the hand or long death. Concept is great implementation is total garbage.

The sub class in the current format is good for one thing 3 level dip to make a great weapon master fighter (dex based)


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## THEMNGMNT (Dec 14, 2016)

Thematically, I really like both of these subclasses.

For the kensai, it's problematic that the kensai weapon attacks don't synergize with Martial Arts or Flurry of Blows. Those are defining monk abilities. So kensai weapons need to be tweaked so that they modify or supplement those abilities. Right now it's an awkward bolt on and the rivets are showing.

For the tranquility monk, I wonder if it should gain "disciplines" like the four elements monk. In other words, spells to spend their ki on. I could see a variety of spells being thematically appropriate, from hold person to reincarnation. In other words, I would give this subclass more cleric abilities.

Regardless, there's some good stuff here. Just needs to be refined.


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## The-Magic-Sword (Dec 14, 2016)

https://mobile.twitter.com/mikemearls/status/808904018265341952?s=09 you keep the benefits of martial arts with kensai weapons apparently. That changes things...

Sent from my SM-G930V using EN World mobile app


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## Valetudo (Dec 14, 2016)

The-Magic-Sword said:


> https://mobile.twitter.com/mikemearls/status/808904018265341952?s=09 you keep the benefits of martial arts with kensai weapons apparently. That changes things...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using EN World mobile app



that's not what they where saying earlier, but is good to hear. They really need to drop the stupid stuff like pummel and the subclass will balance out with the others. It will have a higher dpr but lose out on some of the other things.


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## dpkress2 (Dec 14, 2016)

I really like the Tranquility Monk too. Am I in the minority?

But is it just me? The tranquility monk is not the far off from The Way of the Open Hand? They both get a healing feature. They both get Sanctuary. Just at different levels.

Lots of folks are asking for the tranquility monk to have some sort of Non-violent combat action. But wouldn't that be too similar to the "Open Hand Technique." You would just be adding another similar Way of the Open Hand feature to the Tranquility Monk.


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## dagger (Dec 14, 2016)

Now that Mearls has spoken again, can someone break it down as you would for *a four year old*? What can a 3rd level monk with a Longbow do?

Thank you!!!!!


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## dagger (Dec 14, 2016)

@Likewise45 [MENTION=32417]MikeM[/MENTION]earls So to clarify, any time Martial Arts mentions "monk weapon" it should also say "or kensai weapon" as well?

He answers
 [MENTION=32417]MikeM[/MENTION]earls
@Likewise45 yes


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## Valetudo (Dec 14, 2016)

dagger said:


> Now that Mearls has spoken again, can someone break it down as you would for *a four year old*? What can a 3rd level monk with a Longbow do?
> 
> Thank you!!!!!



Im not 100% sure, but Im guessing they meant for kenseis to be melee focused. I personally dont have a problem if the kensei chooses longbow as one of his three martials. But I dont believe any monk could use their things on a bow.


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## dagger (Dec 14, 2016)

Jeremy Crawford
‏@JeremyECrawford Jeremy Crawford Retweeted Tyler Bechstein
It's funny you ask. We already have a different version of the kensei in mind. That's the nature of design: iterate, iterate, iterate.


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## kalil (Dec 14, 2016)

If they mean (a), why write (b)? It is not that long of a document. One read-through by someone who knows RAI before publishing maybe?


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## Xeviat (Dec 14, 2016)

Dan Kress said:


> I really like the Tranquility Monk too. Am I in the minority?
> 
> But is it just me? The tranquility monk is not the far off from The Way of the Open Hand? They both get a healing feature. They both get Sanctuary. Just at different levels.
> 
> Lots of folks are asking for the tranquility monk to have some sort of Non-violent combat action. But wouldn't that be too similar to the "Open Hand Technique." You would just be adding another similar Way of the Open Hand feature to the Tranquility Monk.




I like the Tranquility Monk. I played a Vow of Poverty/Vow of Nonviolence quarterstaff wielding monk back in 3E; I liked him.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Azzy (Dec 14, 2016)

kalil said:


> If they mean (a), why write (b)? It is not that long of a document. One read-through by someone who knows RAI before publishing maybe?




Actually, they need to do the opposite, really. Too often, someone that knows what a piece of text is *supposed* to convey will re-read said text with the intended meaning in mind, and miss any errors or confusion within the text. Instead, what you really need is to get someone (or, better yet, multiple someones) unfamiliar with the text is trying to convey to read it and ask question about things that are unclear, wonky, and cause confusion.

But that's what they've been doing with these Unearthed Arcana articles—with us playing the role of the reader unfamiliar with the intended meaning.


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## Litania (Dec 14, 2016)

So, now that they clarified that Kensai weapons ARE monk weapons, what shenanigans can we pull off with this subclass?
I am still dubious about it being worth it, except at early levels. 
As early as level 5 you'll be able to do one or two great sword attacks and one or two unarmed (pretty strong) OR two great sword and pummel for extra 1d4 damage. This is so subpar in comparison I am not sure why it's there.
Pummel could be useful if your kensai weapon is a bow, in which case, when you fight at range, you will not always be able to punch things nearby. If you're spreading the damage to multiple foes it might even be more damage than hex, since it applies twice.
One with the blade's accuracy boost costs you your bonus action and therefore seems to be mathematically less valuable than one or two extra attacks. It benefits you only if you're using great weapon fighter or sharpshooter on a high AC monster.
Eventually martial art base damage overtakes most weapons' base die, rendering the advantage of kensai weapons nill. At high level feats are the only things that add any value to using weapons instead of unarmed attacks. I suppose you still get the AC bonus, but stil...

Could a polearm master build bring something to the table?


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## DemoMonkey (Dec 14, 2016)

_"Could a polearm master build bring something to the table?"

_Depends. How far away is the table?


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## TwoSix (Dec 14, 2016)

Carlo Bosticco said:


> Could a polearm master build bring something to the table?



I don't think so...the main offensive benefit of PM is being able to get that free bonus action attack with a mod attached, but monks already have that with martial arts.  GWM seems like the best route in terms of offense, maybe combining with Stunning Strike to get advantage for the -5/+10 attack.


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## Sir Brennen (Dec 14, 2016)

Carlo Bosticco said:


> So, now that they clarified that Kensai weapons ARE monk weapons ...



Kinda. Here's the tweets from Mearls:

*@mikemearls* Dec 13 _ Quick UA clarification - kensai weapons are not monk weapons_

*@mikemearls* 15 hours ago _A better explanation - a kensai weapon is not automatically a monk weapon._ This is in response to a question about the shortsword​
BUT

*‏@mikemearls* 15h hours ago _Sometimes knowing the system guts is a bad thing. You can get the benefits from Martial Arts when holding a kensai weapon._​
Of course, this is really not much of a distinction, since Martial Arts is the only Monk feature that even mentions Monk Weapons.

And to add to the confusion:

*‏@mikemearls* Dec 13  _mainly balance - can't flurry with kensai weapon_​
but I think he was mis-remembering, thinking you could flurry with monk weapons. Flurry is Unarmed Strike only. It's the _damage_ an unarmed strike would do that's dependent on the Martial Arts, and since you get all those benefits, there's nothing preventing you from using a kensei weapon and then a bonus action FoB using full Martial Arts damage.



> I am still dubious about it being worth it, except at early levels.  As early as level 5 you'll be able to do one or two great sword attacks and one or two unarmed (pretty strong) OR two great sword and pummel for extra 1d4 damage. This is so subpar in comparison I am not sure why it's there.



Something needs to be done so the heavy two-handed weapons aren't the obvious choice for kensei, but just an option. For a fighter, you're balancing with giving up a shield.



> Pummel could be useful if your kensai weapon is a bow, in which case, when you fight at range, you will not always be able to punch things nearby.



Per Jeremy Crawford, that's not meant to be an option:

*@JeremyECrawford*  Dec 12 _Rereading a playtest rule, I'm chuckling at the absurdity caused by accidentally omitting "within 5 feet of you." Pummeling at long range!_​


> Could a polearm master build bring something to the table?



Reach?

Really, in the end, I think these statements from the wotc staff imply this version of the Kensei tradition is dead in the water:

*@JeremyECrawford*  18 hours ago _It was an experiment. Playtest feedback is rapidly showing it isn't an experiment worth carrying forward._

*@JeremyECrawford*  19 hours ago _It's funny you ask. We already have a different version of the kensei in mind. That's the nature of design: iterate, iterate, iterate._

*‏@mikemearls* 14 hours ago _All of the UA stuff will receive revisions - honestly, monk is just sloppiness on my part._​


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## hejtmane (Dec 14, 2016)

Quoted the wrong reply I missed the one


Be better off with 2handed sword more dpr  with GWM and unlike a fighter you have limited asi. What you here about polearm all the time is simple it the hand crossbow of heavy weapons


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## Corwin (Dec 14, 2016)

A minor peeve for my, on the kensei, is that the kensei weapons presumably are supposed to be martial. I kind of like the idea of a bo focused monk using a quarterstaff as his weapon of choice.


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## BookBarbarian (Dec 14, 2016)

Corwin said:


> A minor peeve for my, on the kensei, is that the kensei weapons presumably are supposed to be martial. I kind of like the idea of a bo focused monk using a quarterstaff as his weapon of choice.




it's a legitimate peeve. 

I think the subclass works much more intuitively if Kensei Weapon are Monk Weapons and Monk Weapons are Kensei Weapons. You get all the benefits of being a monk using a Kensei weapon and You get all the Benefits of a Kensei using a Monk weapon. I don't think it makes anything OP.


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## Sacrosanct (Dec 14, 2016)

Corwin said:


> A minor peeve for my, on the kensei, is that the kensei weapons presumably are supposed to be martial. I kind of like the idea of a bo focused monk using a quarterstaff as his weapon of choice.




The problem with UA articles, especially ones that are frequent (like these weekly ones), is that there is a higher risk of ambiguity.  I think this is one of those times.  I'm sure they used the term "marital weapons" to _add_ weapons that can be use, and not exclude existing monk weapons.  I can't see any reason why a kensei would be excluded from using a monk weapon as their kensei weapon.


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## Chaosmancer (Dec 15, 2016)

MechaPilot said:


> While that's an amusing concept, it's not really how the spell works.  The attacker has to choose a new target or lose the attack or spell.  Presumably, this is what an attacker would do instead of targeting an ally.




I always read it that they must choose a new target. If they can't choose a new target they lose the attack. 


But I can see your interpretation too.





Sir Brennen said:


> Bunch of Tweets




Okay, so going forward the designers are changing what they said and Kensei Weapons are monk weapons. 

So, you can wield any martial weapon with Dex, if you use 1 of your two attacks to punch, you get +2 AC (Rereading it a few times it does say the Attack Action specifically so all Bonus Action punches do not trigger AC bonus) and then flurry for 2 more strikes.... 

Pummel is completely worthless unless you really want auto damage, because bonus action punch will always be higher damage (1d4 vs 1d4+mod) unless you hit two different targets I suppose, so you can spread damage around better. 


Everything else is accuracy buffs, except for making it a +3 weapon.


So, end of the day this is to allow reach weapons for the class with the highest natural speed in the game, or the use of big damage weapons. 

I'm still not impressed, but it at least isn't as much of a horrible convoluted mess this way (and it seems obvious to me this was not the intent of the original document but them responding to the massive confusion and push-back. )


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## Flamestrike (Dec 15, 2016)

shintashi said:


> Did anyone notice Li Mu Bai died of poison?
> 10th level monk ability: immune to poison
> .




It was a special poison. One that overcomes immunity.


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## Cap'n Kobold (Dec 15, 2016)

shintashi said:


> I mean really, there's just all sorts of clutter in the monk's abilities that kensai have no logical reason to have.
> 
> I'm kind of tired watching Wizards cuck up one class after the next. It's why my group's members haven't bought a thing since last year.



I think that its more likely that you simply have a different opinion of what a kensei is. Nothing is stopping you playing a Fighter or multiclass and calling yourself a "kensei".


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## Valetudo (Dec 15, 2016)

shintashi said:


> kensai with sword. 1 attack. at 5th 2 attacks. with flurry 4 attacks, at a price of 1 ki point and lose your bonus action. Which means you can't use an off hand.
> Even if you could use your sword, this would still suck.
> 
> Kensai without Flurry:
> ...



Dude he wouldnt have died of poison in a dnd universe.


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## Yunru (Dec 15, 2016)

shintashi said:


> kensai with sword. 1 attack. at 5th 2 attacks. with flurry 4 attacks, at a price of 1 ki point and lose your bonus action. Which means you can't use an off hand.
> Even if you could use your sword, this would still suck.
> 
> Kensai without Flurry:
> ...




Of course it isn't: the Fighter can't _Stun his foes_ with those weapon attacks.


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## dpkress2 (Dec 15, 2016)

Sooooo......

I played the Tranquility Monk last night. I had just turned level 3 and my little happy-go-lucky peacenik dwarven monk had already been spec'ed out for The Way of the Open Hand.

....until I found the Unearthed Arcana article yesterday morning.

It was perfect. They way I had been role-playing him already it was as though the new tradition was written just for me. I was landing healing hands left and right, particularly on the party druid who kept running ahead into combat and getting knocked out like that idiot player who runs ahead into combat and gets knocked out all the time. Three times I saved him from death last night. THREE TIMES. Let that sink in for a second.

Healing hands was amazing, especially in a party without a cleric. 30 HP to dole out is nothing to joke about at 3rd level, and all the while still creaming folks with awesome 5th edition monk power. Gnolls were dropping like Carrion Crawlers and Carrion Crawlers were dropping like flies. Everything was going nice and smooth. Until the very, very end.

The final fight against the evil gnollish priestess of Yeenoghu didn't go so smooth. I was going toe to toe with her and her vile magic. Being the only melee combatant in the party as well, my dwarven fury was holding up spectacularly as the main healer AND the main tank. I didn't have much of a choice though. The druid ran ahead into the room AGIAN and was imediately dropped because you know...."CRAAAAA-ZY" I had to run up and save him from dying for the THIRD time. PFFFFT...whatever. I was seriously carrying this party. I didn't have any reason to fear. I had 20 HP and this literal she-bitch was looking rough. Until she landed a 3rd level inflict wounds on me and down I went.

The druid ran away. Let that sink in for a second. 

The rest of the group finally killed her. I had meanwhile made 2 of my death saves and failed 1. The druid eventually came back and made an attempt to stabilize me and failed.

That's when I rolled a 1.

Maybe if I could have used the Open Hand Technique on the Gnoll, my awesome character who I loved would still be alive.

Anywho....The Tranquility Monk is awesome. The need to RP as a non-violent character was not a deal-breaker for me. I was already doing it, but gnolls simply can't be reasoned with and the villagers were saved.


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## Yunru (Dec 15, 2016)

Dan Kress said:


> Sooooo......
> 
> I played the Tranquility Monk last night. I had just turned level 3 and my gruff little peacenik dwarven monk had already been spec'ed out for The Way of the Open Hand
> 
> ...



If you hadn't been tranquility the druid would of died. If the druid would of died, he wouldn't of attempted stabalization. If he hadn't attempted stabalization, you wouldn't of died.

All for the want of a nail.


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## Gardens & Goblins (Dec 15, 2016)

Yunru said:


> If you hadn't been tranquility the druid would of died.




And that'd be fine. Natural selection. Druid would have understood 

I'm also making a tranquility monk for a party, an NPC that will offer their services for food, company and a slice of the treasure._ (Peace and tranquility is great and all, but it does not build monasteries.)

_One of the things I like about the sub class is its potential durability - you can jump in, flip some jabs and spin those kicks, than bliss-bubble up if needs. Or jump in the middle of some goons, blissbubble/dodge action tank until they figure out what's going on. 

While the class lacks direct damage options _(until 17th, though I hope we can agree that's a fairly niche level bracket for many tables)_, the core monk class is nothing to be sniffed at, with its multiple attacks, stuns and mobility. Slap on the layers of defence that monks gain as they level and, when combined with tranquility and healing pool of potentially over a 100 of hit points, and you've got a monk that's decidedly tough._ 

[sblock]In a jam? Need a breather? Leg it with your monk-legs of movement, heal up and all is well. Not taking a beating? Great! Why not pop on over to the rogue, slap a heal on him, grant him the chance to sneak attack and heck, why not headbutt that bugbear while you're at it? Good times![/sblock]

_Their ribbon ability of advantage on Diplomacy checks, given specific circumstances, also helps to offset the typically ok-to-poor charisma of your typical optimized monk. And their hit-and-time-out punch is useful for one-on-one target elimination. Though what exactly a target is doing if its not attacking is open to interpretation _(it could be standing there, blissfully content, or it could be shouting for help, for example).

_So yes! Loves me some tranquility. Let's just remember that they don't have to be pacifists and even pacifists can hit people. Personally, mine will be working with a philosophy akin to 'Peace and Love - enforced with extreme prejudice. YOU THERE! LOVE ONE AND OTHER. OR ELSE!'. He's totally fine with this philosophy. At one with it. Content.


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## Bloodsausage (Dec 15, 2016)

Lucas Blackstone said:


> Personally I don't mind if the Monk gets a better healing pool then the Paladin. Paladins have a bunch of spells to back up their healing.




Plus, and I feel this is key: it's a full action for the Monk and only a bonus action for the Paladin. Sure, you can use it with Flurry, but you still lose an attack. Paladin can Lay on Hands and still make all attacks.

I'm sure the pool recharges with a long rest, but it doesn't actually say.

EDIT: Wait, yes it does right in the first sentence. Not where it usually mentions recharge. Reading comprehension fail.


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## Bloodsausage (Dec 15, 2016)

I actually really like the Tranquility monk. It probably needs a few tweaks in general, but I have one main complaint:

Compared to almost any other class or path, it's crazy MAD (Multiple Ability Dependent). This was common for Monks in PF or 3.x, but not typically in 5e. You'd need DEX, WIS, and CHA to be relatively high for this monk to be effective at his job.


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## Gardens & Goblins (Dec 15, 2016)

You really don't need any more than 10 Cha and the Diplomacy skills, tops. Advantage is going to give you a roughly +4/+5 worth of a bonus on the check, depending on the DC. That's about as much as most charming folks will be getting, outside of bards cha-focused, rogues _(I'm sure someone has one..)_, and buffed charisma-main-stat casters.

While you could try to get even better at being at playing diplomat than a super specialist, simply being *really good* at it, with a minimal investment, is aok in my book. Lets you focus on Dex and Wis, so you can punch them into submission before giving them a stern talking to_ (PHB pg. 198 "When an attacker reduces a creature to 0 hit points  with a melee attack, the attacker can knock the creature out. The  attacker can make this choice the instant damage is dealt".)_

[sblock]Sure, everyone wants to be Jerry Springer, but sometimes we have to settle with being Jeremy Kyle - and you know what, he's also his own TV show.[/sblock]


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## Werebat (Dec 15, 2016)

But can you use the new rules to make a HENTAI kensai?


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## smbakeresq (Dec 15, 2016)

Dan Kress said:


> Anywho....The Tranquility Monk is awesome. *The need to RP as a non-violent character was not a deal-breaker for me*. I was already doing it, but gnolls simply can't be reasoned with and the villagers were saved.





Don't think of it as non-violent, think of it as non-death.  Superman was violent but never killed anyone until the recent movie.  Its actually the way most LG paladins should act but never do, along with all the evil- hating neutrals.

From a RP seems to me Tranquility monks would make a good police force or bounty hunters who capture rather than kill their quarry.  To ingratiate the TM Monastery into the community they could volunteer themselves (or charge money) to the local constabulary.  They would also make good diplomats and negotiators in the violent world of D&D, a reputation for not killing but still being a formidable warrior would add gravitas to such a person.  Or legendary bounty hunters who always capture and bring back their guy.  There are many ways to fit them into a campaign.  

I think the TM has many RP hooks.  I also think it is far stronger than most realize, with ready healing like that  you will out HP everything at your level, and you can attack while healing.  You just can wear things down.  Seems to fit with the bounty hunter theme.

I would though enforce the non-violent part, making sure they player knocks out intelligent creatures or animals as appropriate instead of just killing all of them all the time.  They might also need an alignment restriction, although that's a tough one.  We did have a healer cleric in our group who was LE, worshipped Asmodeus, and healed on the theory that the longer you were alive the more chance he had to get your soul.

I would also watch carefully about the virtual poison and disease immunity, they could be abused.  You could just cover yourself in poison or disease and use it as a rider to your attacks.  Also, a 10 level TM could wipe out a plague affecting 20 creatures, that would certainly mark the player as legendary in the locals eyes and make them sought after (or hunted) for such an ability.


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## Xeviat (Dec 15, 2016)

shintashi said:


> kensai with sword. 1 attack. at 5th 2 attacks. with flurry 4 attacks, at a price of 1 ki point and lose your bonus action. Which means you can't use an off hand.
> Even if you could use your sword, this would still suck.
> 
> Kensai without Flurry:
> ...




Action surge is once per short rest. At 5th level, flurry is five times per short rest.

5th level monk (kensei), great sword:
Base: 2d6+4 x2, 1d6+4 (martial arts) = 29.5
Flurry (5/short): 2d6+4 x2, 1d6+4 x2 =37
Across 2 combats, 3 rounds each, 6 total = 214.5
DPR potential: 35.75

5th level fighter (battle master), short swords (because you were looking at number of attacks):
Base: 1d6+4 x3 (two weapon) = 22.5
Action surge: 1d6+4 x5 (2 base, one twfing, 2 action surge) = 37.5
Plus: 4d8 superiority per short, no miss = 18
Across 2 combats, 3 rounds each, 6 total = 168
DPR potential: 28/round

5th level fighter (battle master), great sword:
Base: 2d6*+4 x2 = 24.7
Action surge: 2d6*+4 x4 = 49.3
Plus: 4d8 superiority per short, no miss = 18
Across 2 combats, 3 rounds each, 6 total = 190.8
DPR potential: 31.8

The monk does fall behind in damage at 11th and 20th, but then they have more ki than they know what to do with. The ability to stun on nearly any hit switches their role from a damage dealer to a controller.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rczarnec (Dec 15, 2016)

Bloodsausage said:


> Plus, and I feel this is key: it's a full action for the Monk and only a bonus action for the Paladin. Sure, you can use it with Flurry, but you still lose an attack. Paladin can Lay on Hands and still make all attacks.
> 
> I'm sure the pool recharges with a long rest, but it doesn't actually say.
> 
> EDIT: Wait, yes it does right in the first sentence. Not where it usually mentions recharge. Reading comprehension fail.




Lay on Hands is an action, not a bonus action.


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## Sacrosanct (Dec 15, 2016)

Xeviat said:


> The monk does fall behind in damage at 11th and 20th, but then they have more ki than they know what to do with. The ability to stun on nearly any hit switches their role from a damage dealer to a controller.
> k





Exactly.  It's never a fair comparison to compare a monk with a fighter and only look at DPS.  The monk has a lot of other benefits, including mobility, the ability to stun over and over, and the ability to avoid being hit in the first place by spamming dodge.


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## Chaosmancer (Dec 15, 2016)

Dan Kress said:


> I had to run up and save him from dying for the THIRD time.
> 
> The druid ran away. Let that sink in for a second.




Man, I would be really upset about that. They came back, which is more than nothing, but after you saved them from the brink so many times, you'd think they would be a little more... appreciative. 

That's really terrible.


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## dpkress2 (Dec 15, 2016)

Chaosmancer said:


> Man, I would be really upset about that. They came back, which is more than nothing, but after you saved them from the brink so many times, you'd think they would be a little more... appreciative.
> 
> That's really terrible.




I'm kind of annoyed yes. Mine was not the character who should have died.


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## Yunru (Dec 16, 2016)

shintashi said:


> a kensei is a DD not a controller. claiming it is anything other than a damage dealing class is an absurd act of mental gymnastics.



No, it's evaluating the class based of it's features rather than some imagined concept.
Anything else is just fantasy (well, moreso anyway).


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## Duan'duliir (Dec 16, 2016)

shintashi said:


> a kensei is a DD not a controller. claiming it is anything other than a damage dealing class is an absurd act of mental gymnastics.



I'm afb right now, but doesn't the monk have proficiency in acrobatics? It'd be easy for a monk (kensei) to make a Wisdom (Acrobatics) check.

Sent from my SM-G900I using EN World mobile app


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## Flamestrike (Dec 16, 2016)

userZynx_name said:


> I'm afb right now, but doesn't the monk have proficiency in acrobatics? It'd be easy for a monk (kensei) to make a Wisdom (Acrobatics) check.




DM: Make a Wisdom [acrobatics] check.

PC: OK... ummm.. damn. Its a three.

DM:

View attachment 79190


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## Duan'duliir (Dec 16, 2016)

Flamestrike said:


> DM: Make a Wisdom [acrobatics] check.
> 
> PC: OK... ummm.. damn. Its a three.



Who plays a monk with only a +1 wisdom?

EDIT: You changed it from 4 to three. Who plays a monk with only an 11 wisdom?

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## Flamestrike (Dec 16, 2016)

userZynx_name said:


> Who plays a monk with only a +1 wisdom?




View attachment 79191


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## Flamestrike (Dec 16, 2016)

[dont be that guy]


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## smbakeresq (Dec 16, 2016)

Xeviat said:


> Action surge is once per short rest. At 5th level, flurry is five times per short rest.
> 
> 5th level monk (kensei), great sword:
> Base: 2d6+4 x2, 1d6+4 (martial arts) = 29.5
> ...




I get the idea, but remember with a fighter you get the chance to spike damage with more crits or using BM with GWF feat to make sure those +10 dmg attacks hit home.    If the scenario goes longer than 2 combats, 3 rounds each, then it all swings to fighter.  

Also flurry is unarmed strikes, so you at 5th level its 1d6+4 (x2) once per round.  You would never use Kensai feature when you have flurry available.  That sort of short circuits the feature of the sub-class, making it pointless.


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## Valetudo (Dec 16, 2016)

smbakeresq said:


> I get the idea, but remember with a fighter you get the chance to spike damage with more crits or using BM with GWF feat to make sure those +10 dmg attacks hit home.    If the scenario goes longer than 2 combats, 3 rounds each, then it all swings to fighter.
> 
> Also flurry is unarmed strikes, so you at 5th level its 1d6+4 (x2) once per round.  You would never use Kensai feature when you have flurry available.  That sort of short circuits the feature of the sub-class, making it pointless.



Thats because the kensei powers are pointless and poorly designed. If they are gona put the kensei in with the monk, it needs to work with the monks core powers, not over ride them with  powers. Otherwise, why bother making this a monk subclass.


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## Xeviat (Dec 16, 2016)

smbakeresq said:


> I get the idea, but remember with a fighter you get the chance to spike damage with more crits or using BM with GWF feat to make sure those +10 dmg attacks hit home.    If the scenario goes longer than 2 combats, 3 rounds each, then it all swings to fighter.
> 
> Also flurry is unarmed strikes, so you at 5th level its 1d6+4 (x2) once per round.  You would never use Kensai feature when you have flurry available.  That sort of short circuits the feature of the sub-class, making it pointless.




Flurry is 2 attacks ... as a bonus action ... on top of your two attacks ... which are great swords based on the new way of looking at it.

I didn't bring feats in. Kensei is going to have +3 to hit and damage rather constantly at a certain point, without really eating into your ki. The Kensei +1d4 damage is poor, and needs a rewrite, but everything else is fine. 


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## The Jenneral (Dec 17, 2016)

Pummeling might be a bit more attractive if it gave you the +2 AC bonus rather than unarmed strikes. Flurry of blows for damage, pummel for survivability.


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## Valetudo (Dec 17, 2016)

shintashi said:


> anyone remember the glass cannon model of the wizard?
> 
> the kensai is the melee version of the glass cannon; they survive much like a rogue or monk, in terms of dexterity based movements, because they arent wearing armor. But if they get hit, they aren't wearing armor, so if you think about it, when a warrior wearing padded or plate gets hit by a sledgehammer or axe, its a totally different experience from when the kensai gets hit. AC is funny like that though and doesn't really do anything but apply abstract avoidance of damage, and is wed to hit points.
> 
> ...



I agree with you that the current design is lazy. But a polearm kensei would play different than a greatsword kensei, and a longbow kensei. The feat choice is used would change thing drastically. The way its actually designed poorly is that its trying to over ride the monks core abilities with inferior ones, when all it needs to do is make the improved weapons its ubclass abilities. Tis opposite of the design of every other monk subclass. This is a different debate than if the kensei should even be a monk subclass or if it should be a fighter subclass. Either way IMO, it should look like light multiclassing into the other one.


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## TrenchcoatJesus (Dec 21, 2016)

The kensei is a good idea, terrible crunch.  I did all of the following for my game to make it work:


Kensei weapons only add the choice of using Dexterity to hit and damage.  You cannot, for example, add Strength to hit and damage for a longbow.
All monk weapons are eligible as Kensei weapons.  Your unarmed strike is never a kensei weapon.
Path of the Kensei's Pummel bonus action can only be used against adjacent targets.  Its damage is dealt per hit with a kensei weapon, and can be applied multiple times against the same target.  If you can make multiple Attack actions on your turn, choose only one of them to determine Pummel's targets and damage.
Pummel's damage improves to 1d6 at 11th level, and 1d8 at 17th level.
Wielding a Kensei weapon still allows you to benefit from the first two bullet points of Martial Arts, but not the third.  In short, you cannot make an unarmed attack as a bonus action when wielding a Kensei weapon.
Using the Flurry of Blows ability while wielding a Kensei weapon grants you one unarmed attack instead of two.  Alternatively, you can make an attack with a wielded kensei weapon, using your Pummel's damage die instead of the weapon's.
Precise strike is removed.  Instead, you gain the Weapon Bond feature as described in the Fighter's Eldritch Knight archetype.  Your bonded weapons must be eligible as Kensei weapons.

I also added a minor campaign-specific ribbon at the Precise Strike tier.

Precise Strike just seems really awful to me.  Either it should be a reaction as all the best accuracy boosters are, or it should be more useful mechanically.  For example, spend a bonus action for a 2x prof accuracy bonus and damage bonus equal to your monk level or something.


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## Guest 6801328 (Jan 17, 2017)

I'm a little late to the party on this one but I have to say I *love* the Tranquility monk.  Yeah, sure, it could be tweaked, but that's what these UA releases are about, right?  (For the record, I'm glad it's not the brawler/grappler thing...in my mind that's a completely different concept.)

I've been looking for something like this since release.  I thought about multiclassed life or light cleric with a few levels of monk for the staff and no armour, but dislike that solution for several reasons.  This sub-class nails it.

Plus the capstone is a delightfully ironic twist.  It's kind of the Yoda class.

Love it.

Kensai....meh.  I know lot's of people clamor for such a thing but...to each his own, I guess.


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## perfidius (Feb 12, 2017)

Hey guys,

I'm sooo late for this party, but I'm about to DM for a Kensai, and here goes my take on this bad boy:

"*You are a specialist of armed combat. As such, choose any 3 weapons from the weapon list (Simple weapons or Martial weapons) to be your "Kensai Weapons".

Any weapon you choose that is not Heavy nor 2-handed becomes a "Monk weapon" for you*."

All the rest stay as written.

It grants access to longsword damage instead of Spear damage (d8/d10 instead of d6/d8) for the ones still willing to fight Martial arts-style.

You can instead choose a Heavy weapon (2d6 baby !), but then you lose Martial arts benefits (bye bye Unarmed attack on Bonus action) and get a far less appealing Flurry of blows (Dodge is still fine though). Here comes Pummel !
Furthermore, you gain access to Great Weapon mastery -5/+10, which can benefits grantly from the accuracy powers of the Kensai.

You play a real specialist of Martial arts armed combat, any style you fancy (Sai, Quarterstaff, Nunchaku, Katana, Glaive (Naginata), etc... )

What do u think ?


Perfidius


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## Sword of Spirit (Feb 14, 2017)

perfidius said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I'm sooo late for this party, but I'm about to DM for a Kensai, and here goes my take on this bad boy:
> 
> ...




I'd have to re-read the Kensai again, but off the top of my head, not bad.

There are still some problems with the class just being a bit clunky that they need to clean up for the final version. In general, it's a bad idea to give the same character mutually exclusive features, but I think your suggestion could work as a patch until they get the basic issue taken care of.


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## FelixJ (Mar 24, 2017)

I know this might be a bit of a necro but I got half way through reading this thread last night before going to sleep. 
I wanted to share my interpretation of the Kensei Monk because I'm really excited at the prospect of playing this in an up coming game but at the same time want to clear any misconceptions on it that I or the my DM might have. 

First up this is a long post as I’ve really spent some time considering this subclass.

I also agree that the use of the word “Kensei” leaves for a lot of head scratching and a few of it's abilities could have been worded better to avoid this but c'est la vie. 
I'm going to break down a few things and please feel free to correct me where I'm wrong, as I’ve just started with 5e earlier in the year and the last time I played before then was 2002-2003 area

_*Monks of the Way of Kensei* train relentlessly with their weapons, to the point that the weapon becomes like an extension of the body. A Kensei sees a weapon in much the same way a painter regards a brush or a writer sees parchment, ink, and quill. A sword or bow is a tool used to express the beauty and elegance of the martial arts. That such mastery makes a Kensei a peerless warrior is but a side effect of intense devotion, practice, and study._

I bolded the first part to emphasis the fact that Kensei are still monks, no surprise but I‘m getting the feeling that a lot of people are seeing Kensei as no longer monks and as such their weapons aren't Monk weapons. I think it is important to point this out because my guess is that the game designers were trying to prevent the following from taking place.

Monk A (Kensei): is in a party declares that a great sword or long sword a Kensei weapon, thus making it a monk weapon. 
Monk B (Way of the Shadow): Wants to use a great sword or long sword but doesn’t want to because it isn't a "Monk Weapon" and would be very sub-optimal. But if he/she can get Monk A’s declared Kensei Monk weapon then profit. 

Now what I see here is while the Kensei are subclass of Monk, so are it's weapons a subclass of Monk Weapons. The difference here is that by declaring it a Kensei Weapon it locks out other subclasses from getting their hands on the thing that sets Kensei apart from other monks. And this brings me to why I'm making this statement.

_Path of the Kensei
When you choose this tradition at 3rd level, you learn to *extend your knowledge of the martial arts beyond the standard array of monk weapons*._

You are augmenting the list of usable monk weapons by having the Kensei subclass weapons. If this wasn’t the case there would be no point to the martial weapon options and you should just go short swords and swap their die out as you level. The goal here is to give the starting some more options and flavour. 

*Edit* https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/808505215963918338 
          The above makes me sad while the class is still completely playable removing flurry of blows is depressing. 


Moving on though because I’m confused on something I’ve been reading, and I’ve seen this mentioned a few times.

_When you take the Attack action on your turn and hit a target with a Kensei weapon, you can use a bonus action to pummel the target, dealing an additional 1d4 bludgeoning damage to that target and to any other target you hit with the weapon as part of the Attack._

I’ve read a few times people say that if you attack multiple different targets you can make this bonus attack on all of targets. So if I attack 2 targets I can apply the pummel to both targets? The way I read this is that it sounds like it applies to the first attack no all attack and as such it would only apply to first target it as you can only use 1 bonus action to initiate this pummel attack. But it also reads like yes you could hit all the targets if you some how did splash damage(?) at which point it is absolutely insane. 

*Addition* Because I found the tweet. The fact this D4 doesn't scale at all is rather bad over all when losing flurry of blows which is 2D10 at later levels. Even at early level 2d4 + DEX is better than bludgeoning. 
I like the Kensei monk but this just feels like a bit of undermining on the class.

Also I ask if this is the correct way of using pummel as I’m not sure how this bonus action is working. Is it an auto hit or do I have to roll;
1d20 + Dex + Prof then 1d4+ Dex for damage

I know for polearm masters pummel attack you can add the STR modifier to the bludgeoning part of the attack but not sure if you have to roll the D20 as well on its bonus attack 
(clearing this up would be awesome thanks!)


But a couple ending notes, I think this sub class is amazing but will be something people really have to manage a little more than most. 
As the total amount of possible bonus actions are incredibly high and depending on your build you could tap your key out in almost 1 round at early mid levels.

Here is an example I've been tossing around in my head.  
Dual Weapons (Sharpen Blade 3 ki x 2 weapons = 6 ki), Stunning Strike attempts (4 Ki), so at monk level 11 player level 13 assuming 2 fighter levels, you will have 1 ki points left. But an additional 4AC, +1 AC from Blade Mastery (UA Feat) , +1 from Dual Wielder, +2 from Class bonus. 

Damage looks like, you need to use the Sharpen Blade on the round before this as it takes a bonus action to apply. (corrected an issue with the dType)
1D8 + Dex + 3 
1D8 + Dex + 3
1D8 + Dex +3 (Action Surge Used)
1D6 + Dex (Unarmed Strike to trigger +2 AC)
1D8 + Dex +3 (Bonus Action)
Assume Parrying stance (+1 AC) 

If you have Magic Initiate, take Hex and add 1d6 to each hit, extra glory if you crit the target because Hex gets to crit as well. BBEG is gonna likely feel this set of hits, as you will also have +4 to attack rolls. You can also swap your bonus action out instead of a weapon attack use the bonus action to do flurry of blows. Gives + 1dX and +1d6 just remember if you go this route at level 11 Monk, 2 Fighter, you have will still use a lot of ki. If you aren’t going to do the stunning strikes you have just a few ki points left till your next short rest. 

This is of course one conceivable way to play this Monk another could be as followed. 

If you were to deem a Glaive/Halberd a Kensei weapon(Naginata), and use the UA Tunnel Fighter Stance, with Polearm Master and Sentinel. You now have massive zone control Monk. Combine this with  Great Weapon Master with this and wreak havoc. 

I like to play monk as Variant Human when I can and I usually limit my self to 3 feats as the Monk is MAD. But if you want to trim it down there are other options of course. 


I think what I like about the Kensei monk is the large number new options that open up and unique options to take advantage of it field control. If you want to use it as a light offense while providing zone control you can. Want to go all ham sure try it. I think it also gives more feat options which I personally enjoy a lot.

Feats -These are all interesting to me in various uses as they are all dependent on other variables
Alert – Increases to initiative is huge in my books kill the target(s) to mitigate damage or on the BBEG stun them and slow them down for your team mates.
Observant – 1 wisdom and passive perception is cool
Sentinel – Nice for that zone control
Mobile – more zip zip around the field and when you smack a group of mobs a free disengage
Charger – I like the extra bang attack of +5 and given monks movement not hard to take advantage of
Magic Initiate – Because Hex is crazy 
Polearm Master – Opportunity attacks are nice and zone control 
Blade Mastery (UA Feat) – If you want to go swords be sure to consider this
Dual Wielder - Because +1 ac, dual long swords, whats not to really like with the buffs you can give these blades.

Cheers and thanks for sticking through to the end, any comments or feed back would be greatly appreciated!


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