# Living Star Wars Saga edition?



## fireinthedust (Jan 7, 2010)

I'm wondering what would be involved in a Living Saga edition sub-forum in the Living Worlds thread.  So, I asked and I got a pretty good check list:  







> (re: Stonegod)
> Lots of interest in the Play-by-post forum, a group of dedicated folks to volunteer to be judges (adjudicate characters, games, and the forum rules), and a DM & player base. I'd suggest starting a post over there in the Talking the Talk forum to see if there is enough interest and go from there.





1)  enough interest in the pbp forums

2)  a group of dedicated judges

3)  a GM & Player base

I'll add in:

4)  an interesting setting (ie: do we go for a particular time period, or do we re-imagine the standard setting in some way to allow for the realities of a living rpg association?   (ie: the Empire plus the Jedi Order plus Sith running around, etc.)

any thoughts?


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## Insight (Jan 7, 2010)

I'd be interested.  I have enough time for *ONE* game nowadays (not the four I was playing plus running one), and this is of interest to me.  I could run or play.

In terms of the time frame, this is definitely the main concern, given that Jedi are going to be the most popular character and the time period will determine how prevalent Jedi can be.  I guess the question should be how many Jedi do we want in the campaign?  If you want more of a balance (less Jedi), I would choose the Rebellion era.  If you want to have a bunch of Jedi, I would go with the KOTOR era.  

Also, consider how familiar you want the average player to be with the setting.  Placing the campaign in the "New Trilogy" or "Old Trilogy" eras ensures that nearly all players would have some familiarity with what's going on.  Far less people read the books and the other EU stuff than watch the movies.  On the flip side, and especially in the "New Trilogy" era, Jedi existence and storyline is VERY restrictive and maybe not something you'd want in a Living-style game.

EDIT: Another possibility is to allow adventures in ANY time period.  This is obviously far less restrictive, but I believe this would require players to maintain characters for each time period.


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## Insight (Jan 7, 2010)

Also, I wanted to provide a link to Wookieepedia, a great resource for this potential Living campaign, as well as Star Wars fans in general.


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## Moon_Goddess (Jan 7, 2010)

I'd be interested in playing, But I doubt I could GM any games


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## fireinthedust (Jan 7, 2010)

yeah, the restrictiveness of a timeline is a big thing is SW.  

would making up our own version of events better suite the game, I'm wondering: ie, allow for an RPGA-style setting the same way L4W's Daunton allows for adventurers?


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## fireinthedust (Jan 7, 2010)

Insight said:


> EDIT: Another possibility is to allow adventures in ANY time period.  This is obviously far less restrictive, but I believe this would require players to maintain characters for each time period.





Which would also mean more than one continuity.  Keep in mind that players are going to affect the course of the timeline in *some* way.  One could attack Jabba and, if we're fair to them, explode him during the Clone Wars.  That would mean that the Rebellion team dealing with him would have to explain why they did that three adventures ago, when he was exploded years in the past!
      I think some sort of compromise would be important, with less obsessive attention to historical reinactment, and more attention to what the players need to have a "real" Star Wars game.  

This is just personal opinion, tho, so feel free to disagree or agree.  I'm asking the wider community, not "claiming this land for Spain", if that makes sense  (I can always run my own game, which runs into fewer complications, but I'm curious about the process and what the community could come up with) 

What is essential to Star Wars for a wider Roleplayer audience in pbp?  Especially as ENworld isn't a Star Wars site but caters to everyone?


As an aside, did anyone actually play the original Living Force campaign?  I bought the gazetteer, and I've always wondered what happened there.


The good things about this idea:

1)  The system seems to be a good one (core so far, but others also).

2)  The Judges could pick & choose from the awesome history/info on Wookiepedia (thanks for that!) for what would be useable in-game

3)  Every game could be in the GM's madeup system for that adventure (as allowed by the GMs during adventure design), which could be added to, say, a wiki for the use of other GMs.  This means I could use major worlds, or go crazy and ignore major events in my own made-up setting (blow up a planet, etc.)


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## Insight (Jan 7, 2010)

A lot of stuff to go over here.



fireinthedust said:


> Which would also mean more than one continuity.  Keep in mind that players are going to affect the course of the timeline in *some* way.  One could attack Jabba and, if we're fair to them, explode him during the Clone Wars.  That would mean that the Rebellion team dealing with him would have to explain why they did that three adventures ago, when he was exploded years in the past!




One of the inherent dangers in running a Star Wars game (or any license game) is that your characters could theoretically destroy canon.  The best way to avoid this is to make it nigh-impossible that the characters will come into direct conflict with a major canonical character.  They could, for example, meet Jabba, but only in Jabba's palace where the gangster has dozens of guards.



> I think some sort of compromise would be important, with less obsessive attention to historical reinactment, and more attention to what the players need to have a "real" Star Wars game.
> 
> This is just personal opinion, tho, so feel free to disagree or agree.  I'm asking the wider community, not "claiming this land for Spain", if that makes sense  (I can always run my own game, which runs into fewer complications, but I'm curious about the process and what the community could come up with)




I've run successful Star Wars campaigns without involving a great deal of canon material.  It all depends on what you want.  References to canon material can be plentiful without exposing the game to trouble with future storylines.



> What is essential to Star Wars for a wider Roleplayer audience in pbp?  Especially as ENworld isn't a Star Wars site but caters to everyone?




This is fodder for future debate.  I think you can have a game that feels like Star Wars in a lot of different ways.




> As an aside, did anyone actually play the original Living Force campaign?  I bought the gazetteer, and I've always wondered what happened there.




I played in the majority of it and it was all right.  The main problems I had with the campaign is that it wasn't "Star Wars"-y enough for my tastes.  No droids, little interplanetary travel, and no personal spaceships (and no space combats).  It felt pretty static for what was supposed to be a "Living" campaign.




> The good things about this idea:
> 
> 1)  The system seems to be a good one (core so far, but others also).
> 
> ...




I think we'd either have to decide on one time period or offer a selection of time periods and develop adventures for each.


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## fireinthedust (Jan 8, 2010)

In that case, we have some options to consider.  A range of eras might work, but it wouldn't be "Living".  It would, rather, be "mimicking", and while we could do it, on a massive scale of relative continuity it might be hard to do.

Of all the eras, which ones would work best?   Also, what are we trying to get out of play?


I'd say we need Jedi.  There's no point to not having access to them *at all* for a Living Star Wars game.  

Rebellion Era:  might work in that we'd have players who're longer term "earn" the status of Jedi by being around a few levels. (or the first few people to join can make a Jedi on the run; early incentive program, that sort of thing)
     The problem is that we'd have to ignore the Movies with "the last of the Jedi" Luke, or else PCs would all have to die.  Also, we'd need someone to train them (holocrons, Yoda and other hidden Masters, etc.), likely someone affiliated with the Rebellion; PCs who'd run enough missions with the Rebellion to earn their trust could be told of this source, and sent to the hidden temple for training.  
      The issue here is more that we don't have the Clone Wars stuff, which is wicked-cool and on TV.  Also, there would only be so many Sith (another popular Star-Trope), and a good lightsabre fight is essential to a SW Jedi plot line.

Clone Wars:  easy enough here for Jedi, but the issue is getting non-Jedi something to do.  Also, who are the players going to be?  What's their role in this setting?  Are they given missions against the separatists?  
    Pretty much I can see this setting as all Jedi, some clones and droids and a noble *maybe*.  No reckless smugglers or bounty hunters on a regular basis in a rigid military hierarchy, though.  

KotOR:  I hear good things about this period, and theoretically it allows for lots of SW tropes and avoids the movies.  This is also the major drawback and why it won't work... maybe.
      However, there are lots of Jedi and Sith.  That's all I personally know without wookiepedia research.

Legacy: likely the same as kotor, but without the Jedi and Sith.  I'm under the impression that it's basically Firefly/Serenity, but with lightsabres for some reason, and aliens.  Meh.


New Jedi Order:  some potential, as it's after the movies so we don't have to follow them.  I've enjoyed the books I've read, but I think the Vong... well, they're not "my" SW.  I like the Empire, I like the Clone Wars, all that stuff.  I don't know if they finished this period off, but I get the feeling there should still be Jedi.  Maybe some Sith?  I dunno.  More info needed.
     The other issue is that it's not around the movies or video games, and there's a lot of stuff about this out there.  I've read some of the books, and even I would have to jump around trying to figure out what's going on.

Homebrew:  fan-based generation of a SW setting with elements custom-tailored to allow all sorts of adventures in a Living setting.  We decide what the galaxy is like (hopefull at War of some sort, with a Good side and a Bad side).
     The good part is we can ignore what we don't like and keep what we do.  I'd be interested to see what people stick with: what do we like?

That about covers it for me.  Personally I see the most potential in a Rebellion-era game that allows for more Jedi and Sith.  That or Clone Wars, if we can allow more room for Non-Jedi.  

Maybe also a limit on the number of Jedi PCs a character can make?  Like, if that Jedi dies, they have to start on a non-Jedi; or they don't get another till the first one's retired.


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 8, 2010)

I'm not entirely sure you need to limit the jedi class.  Yes most people will have a jedi, but I doubt everyone would.  Besides, you can "adjust" them enough to fit alot of situations.  And the problem of a ton of jedi could be self correcting when there aren't enough games for them to play and they are sitting around a cantina all the time.

As far as the setting... I would think alittle bit ahead of the New Order would work.  It's far enough ahead to have a varied future while not screwing up the "classic" Star Wars stuff.  

You _can_ change how the New Order is forming... maybe bring the Sith back in force or something.  You could even "replay" parts of the past... maybe have a planet where the Geonsians still have droids from the Clone Wars or something similar.

I think that the main issue is where the Sith class would fall.  People will more than likely want to play a Sith.  It would be kinda bad for the party to have Sith and Jedi in the same area lol.


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## Walking Dad (Jan 8, 2010)

Because of the relative strictness of the canon... what about using the rules and classes (even the Force), but using a new background?

Are we keen on SW (next question: which period?) or the rules system and a SciFi setting (I like Star*Drive, BTW)?


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## Insight (Jan 8, 2010)

In terms of time period (and I think the game should stick to an established Star Wars background), I think it should come down to one of the three most popular eras:

1.  Rebellion Era (aka "Original Trilogy")
2.  Rise of the Empire/Fall of the Republic Era (aka "New Trilogy")
3.  Knights of the Old Republic

We'd have the best chance attracting players and GMs with one of the above because they'd already be familiar with what's expected.

*Rebellion Era* -
*Pros*: Everyone is familiar with this era, lots of story to mine for adventure ideas, black and white conflict between Rebellion and Empire
*Cons*: Jedi very restricted (one could argue there shouldn't be *any* Jedi), problems with canon/continuity, short time period

*Rise of the Empire/Fall of the Republic Era* -
*Pros*: Most people are familiar with this era (but may not like the movies - not sure that this matters), probably the most material to mine for adventure ideas, good deal of "work space", Jedi plentiful (but doomed), lots of factions to use for enemies (the guilds, bounty hunters, the Sith, the resistance, etc)
*Cons*: Still some problems with canon/continuity (but less so because many of the major characters die off or become irrelevant)

*Knights of the Old Republic Era* - 
*Pros*: Jedi and Sith are plentiful, large "work space", no real canon/continuity problems
*Cons*: Less familiarity with this era (as compared to the other options listed above), less real "story" to work with, may be too large (we might need to focus on a specific time or plot)


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## Insight (Jan 8, 2010)

OnlytheStrong said:


> I think that the main issue is where the Sith class would fall.  People will more than likely want to play a Sith.  It would be kinda bad for the party to have Sith and Jedi in the same area lol.




The good news about this is that you don't really need to worry about it until after 6th level or so.  All force users start as Jedi according to SWSE.  Obviously, force adepts and characters trained strictly as Sith use that class as a game mechanic but would call themselves something else "in character".  

SWSE isn't really set up to have alternate force users (as a base class), though if we really wanted to offer an alternative to the Jedi base class, we could create something.


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## fireinthedust (Jan 8, 2010)

I'm all for creating a new version of Star Wars, but it would have to be just that: Star Wars.  Not Star Drive or Rifts Saga Edition (as fun as that might be... and doable), but specifically Star Wars.
       The problem with a particular era is also that so much changes every series.  If the Vong invasion were over (hopefully) we'd have to decide if Coruscant was back to being a giant city or if we'd keep it covered in plant matter/jungle the way I hear they did it in the books.


What if we were to make up our own war?  We pick factions that we'd want to keep from any of the eras.  Then we say "okay, the badguys are invading" and play an actual War in the setting?  

Sith:  I think they should be NPCs.  Maybe redeemed Sith, or only if a GM is making a game specific to the characters, but as a general rule I vote no.  In fact, I'd say we should have dark side scores for even non-Force users.  
   However, I think Droids and Bounty Hunters should be allowed.  


What if we had the Sith and Jedi unaffiliated with a particular Order, and had them fighting more of a shadow war against particular Sith Lords?  


What books are we looking at?  Core is obvious, but Ive heard Force Unleashed is... uber-powered.  Likely good for villains, but not Jedi PCs just yet.  Or at least pick and choose particular powers.


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## Insight (Jan 9, 2010)

fireinthedust said:


> What books are we looking at?  Core is obvious, but Ive heard Force Unleashed is... uber-powered.  Likely good for villains, but not Jedi PCs just yet.  Or at least pick and choose particular powers.




I'd say we could probably get away with core rulebook only until the campaign gets off the ground and add the other books in slowly as it ramps up, giving people a chance to redo their characters with the new material.


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 9, 2010)

I'd cast my vote for only core (for now).  I like how L4W has proposals.  That would easily translate into SW.  

Time frame:   I can see any timeframe working... if you control the DM's.  You could include main characters (Jabba, Emperor, Darth blah blah) but not allow them to be a combatant.  It's kind of strongarming, but it's very very easy to explain.  Let's use... Jabba.   You are _not_ going to get to him without guards.  Elite guards (epic guards lol).  Jabba may be level 10, but you have to fight though 5-10 epic people to get there.  NOT worth the risk.   Say the got the idea to destroy him from space... Jabba has people in the air too.  He basically controls the planet.  

Anywho, I think we can make any time frame work.  The trick would be picking a very popular one.  

Rebellion Era:  What are we going to do when a party of rebels has an imperial player in their group?  You can't really walk into a cantina and ask for only rebel supporters.  Well you could, but it would be a really short story.

Rise of the Empire:  Can't really find fault with that time frame.  There is still the division between rebels and imperials... Sith are still about, jedi are on the verge of being very rare.  

KOTOR:   To be honest, I don't know much about this timeframe.  You can make up a LARGE portion of stuff, but one could argue that even alittle thing could change the future.  

I think the Empire setting would probably be the easiest/most fun for everyone to play.  You could even bring the Sith back  in force, and have the jedi begin a renewal.  I could see a new jedi temple being built, even a new school for the jedi.  Instead of hanging out at the cantina, they hang at a temple lol.   Too complex?  Idk.  This thing could be as complex or simple as people want it to be.  

I'd cast my vote for The Rise of the Empire.


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## fireinthedust (Jan 9, 2010)

OnlytheStrong said:


> I'd cast my vote for only core (for now).  I like how L4W has proposals.  That would easily translate into SW.




I like this.  For now, we go Main Book (as theoretically everything is "core"), and proposal things in.  





> I think the Empire setting would probably be the easiest/most fun for everyone to play.  You could even bring the Sith back  in force, and have the jedi begin a renewal.  I could see a new jedi temple being built, even a new school for the jedi.  Instead of hanging out at the cantina, they hang at a temple lol.   Too complex?  Idk.  This thing could be as complex or simple as people want it to be.
> 
> I'd cast my vote for The Rise of the Empire.





I think we shouldn't have player Imperials or Sith.  That's like having FR players start in the Zhentarim, or as Orcs working for Morder in a LOTR game.  


What if we did an alternate timeline setup?  Like, Rebellion-era, but we don't have the Jedi all die off.  A few survived and started up a new Temple, which players can come from or train at later on; or else can earn their way into after MC from another class.


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## drothgery (Jan 9, 2010)

I've always set my SWSE games (mostly PBPs here) in periods where there was little or no canon; I've done my version of a few centuries after KotOR (though I think the timeline for the new Old Republic MMO tramples on my K'ril wars...) and an inifinities game set in a universe 25 years after RotJ where Luke, Vader, and the Emperor died permanently in the 2nd Death Star explosion and the Vong don't exist.

The basic advantage to creating an era (whether in a mostly unmapped part of the Star Wars timeline or by doing an alternate timeline) is that you're limitting the effects of canon on your game. The disadvantage is that there's far less to work with, and things players 'know' about the Star Wars universe will be wrong. And for a living world, you need to hash out more than the just wherever the PCs happen to be at the time.


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## fireinthedust (Jan 9, 2010)

drothgery said:


> The basic advantage to creating an era (whether in a mostly unmapped part of the Star Wars timeline or by doing an alternate timeline) is that you're limitting the effects of canon on your game. The disadvantage is that there's far less to work with, and things players 'know' about the Star Wars universe will be wrong. And for a living world, you need to hash out more than the just wherever the PCs happen to be at the time.




Yes, well put.   Although I think alternate timelines, were you pick a point and go with it, can draw on the same material but allow the game to carry forward naturally.  I'd want to know about Darth Vader, at the very least that he'd been there at some point, even if it was after he'd died.

granted, for homebrew, I think everyone is familiar enough with homebrew that it's not a huge issue to re-make a setting (ie: setting a game in Faerun, or making up a totally new PoL setting of the party's own).  Still, that may not hold as well for SW gamers.  Guh, dilemma it is, when to set this game...

Brainstorming Idea:  a list of things in the setting that you wouldn't want to game without.  We can maybe even re-make a particular thing in a given era of play, that's from another era (example: some race started cloning again in the rebellion era, and a number of clones work for the rebellion, while others have gone it alone; none of these new generations are programmed with Order 66).  
   Regardless, this could help give an idea of when we'd like to set the Living game, and what common setting elements to add in.  Even if we don't have Jabba, there could be multiple takes on Hutt Gangsters who have filled the void left by the corpulent crime boss.

Oh, and if you make one, ignore mine and we'll see what pops up most often.

Fireinthedust's list:

Hutt gangsters
Stormtroopers
Star Destroyers
The Empire
Droid armies of some sort
the Jedi Order
Sith Lords and apprentices
Cantinas
Wookies
Droids of all sorts
Ewoks
Darth Vader
Natalie Portman
Bounty Hunters
Scoundrels
Tatooine
Coruscant/city-planets
the Death Star
The Rebellion
Clones & Clone troopers
Yoda
Lightsabre fighting styles
Cybernetic replacements/enhancements


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## fireinthedust (Jan 10, 2010)

Another concern:  Crunch!

So far the era of a shared universe is up for grabs (and if we have a group of judges willing to participate with me, it should be voted on), but the issue of crunch is going to come up far more often than era questions: what do I do round-by-round, in combat, etc.


The following are proposals, and can/should be adjusted by discussion, if needed.


Books:  Core only (proposal for new material process once we get going for sure; and likely expand to almost everything fairly quickly)

Stats:  My current game uses the array of 16, 15, 14, 13, 12, 10.  It works well, and I like it better than the standard array of the core book.  Point buy for this would be 37, assuming all stats start at 8, cost as per the core book.  Max stat number should be, what, 18 before racial adjustments?  16?  (I can see Wookies with high Str and Con, but in SW that's not huge, with Jedi and dex-based blasters) 

Races:  Core races, and droids.  Others by proposal. 
      Droids should be custom droids, though if they're an "astromech", etc., they're that; just not the statblock for a normal droid.
      I think Vocabulators for wookies, etc. are good.
     Ewoks: I've got an Ewok techie I'm building (scoundrel) who I'd want to spend a bonus scoundrel feat to get Pistol proficiency, but RAW says only wp: advanced weapons.  Could we allow for that for primitive races, if it's a bonus feat?

Classes:  Core classes.  Force-users should level up generally as Jedi, or at least part of the Jedi tradition (for PCs).  NPC Sith should use the Jedi class or other classes as desired, for the math/lightsabre talents.  Ie: I don't have a problem with using the Jedi class as *the* force-user/lightsabre class for other orders of force-users.

Prestige Classes:  I vote against Dark Side classes, tho until we're at that level it won't matter.  The reason is they're bad guys, and the stats are for DMs, or players in a darksider game.  Also I think Force users should all be Jedi-based, rather than the dathomiiri witches or sith, etc.  For now, at least. 

Feats/Skills:  Core.

Equipment/starting wealth/owned droids:  should be standard.  I don't have an issue with a player spending credits on a droid, though certain battle droids should be restricted until unlocked in play.  GMs should be allowed to disallow a particular droid, but must warn a player before accepting them into a game.

Ships/Vehicles:  I think PCs should be able to buy a ship, but its use should be okay'd with whatever GM is running the game.  If a PC isn't allowed to use their ship in-game, they should be told before they're accepted into the game.

Destiny points:  No, too powerful for now.

Force Points:  Standard; however, perhaps on a per-adventure basis rather than per level?

XP:  no idea here.  Standard?

GM Rewards:  I'm leaning towards XP for their characters, and maybe access to special equipment (ships) so we get GMs to run a game to earn access to their own ships?  Maybe also Force powers that are more powerful, like what I've heard about Force Unleashed: if the player is responsible enough to run a game for others, give them more leeway?


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 10, 2010)

Okay..... Let's take it one step at a time.  If you want to talk crunch that's fine.  But we only have 6 different people that have posted in this thread, and between the 6 of us we haven't came up with a suitable starting point.  

I'd like to hold off on the crunch part until we can at least figure where we are starting.  That will let us make the crunch part better.  

Tha alternate timeline thing is a fine idea, and we can openly advertise it as so.  I doubt players would complain if they knew that up front.  That said, we still have to pick a point to branch off from.  

I am almost tempted to say that we start it far enough in the future to where most of the stuff people know is the general history.  We can have a droid army coming back, we can have the sith approaching again, we can have the jedi re-establish themselves, and we can have the rebellion against the empire.  It could even be the immediate future.  Simply start where the movies left off... Wookiepedia be dammed lol.  

Just my opinion, but I don't see a real issue with it.  Jabba can still be alive (how long does a worm live anyway), Fett coulda cloned himself (a clone of a clone lol).


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## fireinthedust (Jan 11, 2010)

fair enough.  How close after the movies do you suggest?  Like literally just take off from where the movies left off, or maybe skip ahead a few years?
    And do we want to say movies-as-core (and Clone Wars series, which is pretty good and accessable to any player)?  That's pretty user-friendly.

 I've been thinking that we could allow Jabba (and others) to be dead, and come up with some varient Hutts to deal with; I had one in a past campaign who turned out to be just like the one in the Clone Wars movie (oh well).  

I'm also wondering if we'd want to make up specific systems where stuff happens in the Living games.  Like, we can go to celebrity planets (Coruscant, Kashyyk, etc.), but for home base material we create a system or even a sector of space where adventures can happen.  You want to start in a Cantina?  It's on planet X.  The local Hutt crimelord lives on planet Y.  The Imperial Remnant has a hold on planet Z.  Maybe even make it a collection of local systems.

It'd be interesting to see if a shared plotline could happen.  For example, a droid army starts getting made and attacking celebrity planets; the Republic/Rebellion decides to fight them; even if a GM has a totally different storyline, they can have a nod to current events in the campaign.


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 11, 2010)

I would think that if we get it close to the end of the movies... a decade or so, then we would attract enough people that don't follow the other stories that came out about SW.  An alternate timeline would let us do whatever we deemed needed to be done.  

You could have a tavern for each of the "core" planets.  Kashyyk wouldn't have a cantina imo, since it's supposed to be a hostile planet.  Of course... they have a starport... so they probably have a cantina... maybe just not a starting planet?


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## fireinthedust (Jan 11, 2010)

I like that.  10 years sounds good, and include the movies and TV show as the only needed stuff, with other info as needed.  

I think we can have major players in the setting created by the community; and we should have some sort of famous Cantina that people just go to, a place made up by us that recruitment can happen at (like the Hangman's Tavern in L4W).

Mechanically we'd need a place to recruit, and 10 years post-endor allows for everything we know of so far.  

We need a war.  Some kind of... oh, I dunno, "Star War" or something.  That'll likely develop; maybe get this off the ground and go from there.


So how does *that* sit with the posters so far?  10 years post-Endor, Movies-only as Cannon, with elements from novels and comics and wookiepedia cannon'd on this as a baseline?


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## garyh (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm curious enough to follow along, having just finished a re-watch of all six Episodes, and having just happened to order SWSE off Amazon this weekend (bought the firs two WotC SW RPG's when they came out, finally got around to ordering Saga).

Here's my idea for the setting:

Ten years after Endor, and the Imperial Remnant (I've seen a bit of this mentioned in Wookiepedia, but haven't read any EU stuff myself, so don't know the "real" specifics) is trying to take Coruscant and the Core Worlds back from the Republic.  To do so, they use stormtroopers (both clones and true born enlisted) and droid armies, and hire bounty hunter scum.  In reality, the Imperial Remnant is being manipulated by a new Sith Lord, who has broken the Rule of Two and has many apprentices.  Whispers also say a new Death Star is being built...

Jedi are now trained in the New Jedi Order founded by Luke under advisement of the force ghosts of Yoda and Obi-Wan, along with holocron knowledge.  Jedi often work with the Republic military, both in an official capacity or as unsolicited advisers, but also conduct a great deal of intelligence and other "sensitive" work for the Republic outside the military framework.

PC's would start in a community-created sector with its own cantina, Hutt ganglord, would-be Moff, and Republic Base (as fireinthedust mentioned in post 21).  I suggest the starting sector could be the Morrus Sector, home to the starting planet of En. 

This gets you Imperials, stormtroopers, clones, droids, bounty hunters, and Sith as adversaries.  Easily allows Jedi PC's, and gives reasons why they can work with military adventures or civilian.


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 11, 2010)

Should we make people be in the Rebellion though?  I'm playing devil's advocate here cuz I will most definetly be a rebel.  We could easily enough keep the Empire acting to control the core planets, heck could even have things happening to hint ahead at the return of a sith war.  Garyh had good ideas.  I like what I've heard so far.   I just wonder if we should make people support the rebellion.  You know someone will want to go Imperial lol.


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## fireinthedust (Jan 11, 2010)

Evil PCs:  that's basically what it comes down to.  While there could be PCs with ties to the Impirial Remnant, active impirials is (I think) a bad idea for a Living game.  The RPGA doesn't do it for a reason, and I think neither should we.  If I'm taking a PC through several GMs, I don't want to worry about a traitor in the party (unless the GM is pulling a fast one, and well-played) or someone going mass-murderer, etc.  For sure no Sith (for now).
      also, leaving room for shooting stormtroopers is important.  They're a facet of the story, a tool of narration, that's Star Wars-ey.

That said, I don't know that PCs are necessarily rebels; there's the Republic, with Princess Leia Organa and Admiral Ackbar at the helm.  Bounty hunters and such aren't necessarily rebels, and I'm sure they'd be okay (though we should still track dark side scores until NPC status is gained).
     So if I want to play Han Solo, rather than post-movies rebel/husband Han, I think that should be okay.  Just not Darth Vader's other, other, other apprentice or Thrawn's right-hand minion.  

I do think having the Judges skew creation and design in favour of being rebels/republics would be good, though.  Like preferring Good aligned PCs, or that all characters are paranormal investigators rather than Mythos cultists (even if it would be fun to play one).  And we should encourage rebels/alliance types, just for the sake of plot direction; unless there's one group of players/DM who wants to run "that evil group" of assassin droids and bounty hunters, but the plot should still be approved by LSW judges before it's run (just like the other Living games).


Droids:  just an aside: the Scavenger's guide to droids is a good book, and has a mechanic for treating droids as equipment that takes up actions, rather than as separate stat blocks.  I think it's perfect for LSW!


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## fireinthedust (Jan 11, 2010)

GaryH:  I like what you said.  I also would suggest that rather than having the Empire Remnant with clones and droids and stormtroopers and bounty hunters, we could have different groups using different minions.  

I'm thinking a droid army (one run by aliens like Geonosians, another one run by independent Droids!), the Impirial army (under Thrawn, who's a fan-fave villain), the Bounty Hunter's guild, pirate guilds of various sorts, and the Rebel alliance... and we can have a race to see who can find the cloning technology left over from the Clone Wars, to back up their armies!

Sith suggestion:  we have several groups of them, also.  Palpatine/Darth Sidious had many apprentices, some Vader didn't know of.  After Endor, in various ways they learned the secrets of becoming Sith Lords/Apprentices, but didn't get along well.  Now we have different Styles of Sith, at least two Sith Lords in the setting, doing different things and with different agendas.  Any GM-made Sith must trace their roots to one of these primary Sith Lords (unless they're just dark Jedi).


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm totally fine with everything you just posted lol.  Odd huh?  

I like the thought of having 1 or 2 main Sith Lords... It makes it feel sort like the Bioware KOTOR game.  Heck, we could even have 2 main lords... that serve under a true Sith Master.  Kind of... a you think you know but you don't know thing.  

Anywho, we seem to have two main points settled:
    1)  Approximately a decade after the end of the movies (I'll have to look up what year) is when the story will be set.
    2) No Imperial players without _express_ permission for a specific game.  PC killers = NPCs, either by choice or they were made that way by the judges.  

On to the next point?


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## fireinthedust (Jan 11, 2010)

3)  No Sith players without express permission for a game.  


4)  The main LSW system is Nolan, the major planet is En.  I love that idea.  

However, I hope it doesn't get called "En world", as it's not.  No one calls Tattooine-World: it's not Disney!

Nolan should have a history of its own, separate from just forum history.  Like, it should have had some interesting battles during both the Clone Wars and the Rebellion, so we can run plotlines as close to home as possible, but also send away for celebrity planets (like Hoth, etc.).  
      Also enough planets that there can be colonies of popular races, and a spaceport and city where almost any race can be found.  

     The Jedi could have a moon with a Temple on it, and a Master and/or Jedi Seer-type who gives Force Training to PC force-users of all types (not just Jedi); and a specialist Lightsabre Jedi, who's the combat specialist.  

I suggest we also create some really unique features for the system, like a droid planet, or a living moon that's a Jedi Master (or houses Jedi spirits of old).  Maybe a space station orbiting En.


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## fireinthedust (Jan 11, 2010)

Asteroid Belt:  we should have one somewhere handy.  I'm watching clone wars, and there's this "graveyard of ships" around this one planet.  What if this were the Droid-run planet, which has junkyard parts all over the surface (read: ocean of parts).  Or maybe it's a station, like a Death Star, the size of a moon with an asteroid belt and junkyard-in-space, that's run by droids for junk-processing?  
    Or maybe that's two separate ideas...



Speaking of Droids, the scavenger's guide has this "protocol" optional rule, that lets PCs use droids as equipment: they activate them by spending swift actions to give orders.  It's good, and will keep down stat-block glut for the GM to deal with, and players getting piles more actions, and I think we should use it (but we can talk about this much, much later).


Hutts:  I was thinking a pair of Hutts, who hate each other (or not, like Twins) who can either run the Bounty Hunter's guild chapter, or just general smuggling and crime.


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## Insight (Jan 11, 2010)

Not to completely throw a wrench into the works here, but why not start right at the end of Return of the Jedi?  Your first level Jedi characters are brand new recruits of Skywalker and are the first of his apprentices.  Imperials could still exist, as could all of the other factions you mentioned.  Building the Jedi Order from scratch might be more interesting than a decade later and everything is just about done.  We might have some more dramatic space to mine.

Starting there would obviate the Timothy Zahn novels, or we could try to incorporate some of it where possible (Admiral Thrawn could exist, for example).


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## fireinthedust (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm all over Thrawn!  I figure he could be the galactic head of the Empire.  However, I also suggest we have a Nolan System "Moff" who's the local pain to deal with.  Sort of an underling type, at least to start with.

Maybe the first "event" could be a Star Destroyer sweeping in the system and "claiming" it from the Alliance?


I'd go 10 years just so we can set up some Jedi who aren't Luke, as mentors and teachers.  Otherwise we have to use a Movie Celebrity, who should be on Coruscant or somewhere big.  It allows for more LSW NPCs, and some room for backstory.


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## Insight (Jan 11, 2010)

What if our players' Jedi are the ones who help Luke build the new Jedi Order?  That's pretty heroic in itself.  Just a thought.

In terms of "Nolan", it would make sense to be part of the Imperial Remnant, giving us instant sources of conflict.  Characters might be headed there to clean it up, find and support the resistance, bounty hunt, etc.  There could also be Hutts supporting the remaining Imperials for their own corrupt reasons.


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## fireinthedust (Jan 11, 2010)

Insight said:


> What if our players' Jedi are the ones who help Luke build the new Jedi Order?  That's pretty heroic in itself.  Just a thought.




You're right, for sure.  I gave this some thought: 10 years isn't that long, in that the oldest ones trained from birth are max 10 years old.  Those who are old enough to be Jedi PCs are likely rebellion veterans or others who were at least old enough to remember the empire (let's say 20 year old PCs, or so).  
     Right after Endor Luke is going to be busy searching for students, let alone having fully trained Jedi ready for level 1 (rather than MC Jedi or Force-sensitive non-Jedi).  If we're assuming the Movies-as-Canon stance, PCs would for sure be the first batch of Jedi Luke had trained...

     That said, maybe the Masters we have access to should reflect this.  One could be a reformed Dark Jedi or Sith who worked for the Emperor, and is a great lightsabre fighter/teacher.  Another could be, like, an Ithorian Force Wizard who spent years in meditation on a backwater planet, hidden from the Empire.

And maybe quests could be to find a missing Master.



> In terms of "Nolan", it would make sense to be part of the Imperial Remnant, giving us instant sources of conflict.  Characters might be headed there to clean it up, find and support the resistance, bounty hunt, etc.  There could also be Hutts supporting the remaining Imperials for their own corrupt reasons.




The system is still in Impirial Controlled space?  So PC rebels could be sent in to act like Rebels, even though they're working for the fledgling Republic... I kinda like it.  Do we want it totally in their space, or on the edge?  I ask because we've also got to have a Jedi Temple in the same system.  Also, we might even want a Republic base, or even a stronghold for Rebels somewhere... maybe hidden, maybe not.

     How Impirial would be a good idea?  Like, we want a presence in the system, but enough freedom for other powerful interests that PCs don't have to hide all the time.  I'd suggest having a Star Destroyer in the system, able to dump Tie fighters or Stormtroopers, but it's got standing orders not to lay waste to any of the cities or stations or planets.


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## fireinthedust (Jan 11, 2010)

Are we agreed on the #4 I wrote above?  It looks like we are, but I don't want to get ahead of where we're at.   I like "Nolan" and the planet "En", but as you will.


Does this open up Crunch discussion?  Some questions are coming up, like what classes do we want to start with initially.


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm fine with that.  Nolan or En could be a planet of refugees... you could even have some people of political influence from Alderaan there.  Just a thought, and that way you could explain why there are so many different races all hanging out (and allow for villages of the same).


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## garyh (Jan 11, 2010)

Where does "Nolan" come from?

I think the PC start sector should be mostly Republic with Imperial encroachment from an Imperial Remnant Moff in the neighboring sector (which could also be named and a secondary adventuring area, like Daunton and Bacarte in Living 4th Edition).


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## fireinthedust (Jan 12, 2010)

ENworld = Eric Nolan's World.  Site was started with 3e predictions back in AD&D days, then kept going.  I believe he sold the site?


Refugees:  maybe a bit more than camps.  For sure a lot of regugees arrived there, but that would have been almost two decades ago.  And they would have wanted to arrive there for *something*.   At the very least there should be a bustling spaceport, and some of the races have set up mines, farms and may even have skilled labour for corporations, spread out across the planet.
         Alderaan is a good idea.  House Organa, or what's left of it, could be a great source for Nobles, and a tie in for the Rebellion: Bail Organa set up the rebellion, and we can have Leia cameos perhaps.  They hate the Empire, and would for sure hire PC adventurers to run jobs, fight the Empire, and help liberate Nolan.

          Before we make the next system over, let's figure out Nolan.  Planets are like Islands, so one could very well be an outlaw world.  Maybe even En!  Once a ship gets to hyperspace, unless the next system over is a plot element (ie: the Empire reinforcements are just "that close" (har har)), space is so big that ships may as well be from anywhere.


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## garyh (Jan 12, 2010)

Actually, the founder of the site was Eric NOAH.  

EN World D&D / RPG News - View Profile: EricNoah

Thus, my confusion.


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## fireinthedust (Jan 12, 2010)

garyh said:


> Actually, the founder of the site was Eric NOAH.
> 
> EN World D&D / RPG News - View Profile: EricNoah
> 
> Thus, my confusion.





Hah!  ten points!   Okay, then, where the heck did we get Nolan from?!

I like the name for the system, though.  Any other suggestions?


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## garyh (Jan 12, 2010)

The Haon Sector?  (Noah backwards)


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## fireinthedust (Jan 12, 2010)

Haon system sounds good.  Nolan is still good, maybe as a planet or the next system over (that no one ever goes to?).


If we can cobble together just enough for a game, someone (maybe me?) could run it and get this sucker started.  Then we can see if people want to keep going.


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## Insight (Jan 12, 2010)

Wouldn't the Jedi Temple be on Yavin IV? (or are we changing this for the living campaign)  I believe the Jedi tend to have one temple at a time, and even if they were to have more than one (eventually), I'd think Luke would keep it centrally located somewhere for a time.



			
				Wookieepedia said:
			
		

> In 11 ABY, Jedi Master Luke Skywalker chose Yavin 4 as the site for the Jedi Praxeum and the headquarters of his New Jedi Order after receiving permission from the New Republic. During his travels, he had discovered a number of Force-sensitives and finally felt ready to begin to train new Jedi. This first class consisted of twelve pupils with Luke as their teacher. Some of those twelve were Kam and Tionne Solusar, Kirana Ti, Madurrin, Kyle Katarn, Dorsk 81, Brakiss, Corran Horn, Streen, and Gantoris. Other Jedi to join soon after were Kyp Durron, Cilghal, Mara Jade, and Dal Konur.




Note that the above is not "canon" and therefore, we can change any or all of it as it suits us.  I would recommend that, at a minimum, we replace the students' names with those of our Jedi PCs.

I'm not sure we need to have the Jedi Temple anywhere near our system.  There are spaceships, you know 

I kinda like the idea of having the other initial masters be multiclassed Jedi (other heroes of the Rebellion, reformed gangsters, etc).  I also like the idea of the Jedi PCs being the same, but younger and less experienced.  If the Jedi order is 10 years old, none of our PCs will have grown up in the Jedi order.  I don't think Luke would care about that requirement, especially considering he didn't grow up in the order.

So, the Haon system could be located on the fringes of the Imperial Remnant and our initial missions might be to secure planets in Haon from Imperial and Hutt incursions and influence (and see below).  Later, our PCs can head into the Imperial Remnant and Hutt Space (map of Hutt Space) to deal with the sources of these threats.

*** This site has a nice "unofficial" map of the SW galaxy. ***

On the Imperial Remnant:


			
				Wookieepedia said:
			
		

> There was no official starting point for the Remnant, nor an official ending point for the Empire. It seems, rather, that as the functioning government of the Empire fell into disarray, it slowly evolved into the modern confederated government. Evidence of the start of this evolutionary process point to five dates:
> 
> 4 ABY—following the first death of Palpatine at the Battle of Endor.
> 11 ABY—following the final death of Palpatine.
> 11 ABY—several months after that, following the death of the last Galactic Emperor, Xandel Carivus.




I chose to stop the list here because we have Luke starting the Jedi Praexeum at ABY 11 (we could start the campaign there and use all of that EU material).

On Hutt Space (specifically, the Hutt Sector):


			
				Wookieepedia said:
			
		

> During the rule of the Galactic Empire, Hutt Space was reduced in size to what was called the Hutt Sector; it was governed by Moff Sarn Shild, and later by Moff Yref Orgege, though their authority was weak at best. The heart of the region contained the Bootana Hutta, the "Garden of Hutts", an area containing the various kajidic throneworlds. Even in the Empire's days, this area remained secretive to outsiders, who knew it only through rumors.
> 
> From the fragmentation of the Empire to the Yuuzhan Vong War, Hutt Space seemed to have remain largely autonomous, and was sometimes still referred to as the Hutt Empire even during this period.




Clearly from this information, Hutt Space would be on the rise once again.  In fact, Haon might be a former Hutt Space system that fell out of the Hutts' control during the days of the Empire.  That would explain why the Hutts would be interfering.

The Imperial Remnant is headquartered on Bastion in the Outer Rim.  Hutt Space is located between the Mid Rim and Outer Rim, and so Haon could be located between them.

EDIT 1: After looking at a pretty good map (I don't own the new Star Wars Atlas), it seems that Bastion and Hutt Space are fairly far apart.  If we want to include both the Imperial Remnant and the Hutts, we'll need to find a reason for one or both of them to want to meddle in Haon affairs besides a territory war.  Haon could still be part of former Hutt Space OR located on the fringes of the Imperial Remnant, but it can't be both.

EDIT 2: Yavin is located between the Imperial Remnant and Hutt Space, approximately where we *could* place Haon.  Perhaps the Yavin and Haon systems are adjacent to one another.  That might give the Jedi Praexeum a reason to send Jedi there to adjudicate the peace.


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 12, 2010)

I........ actually like all of that.


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## fireinthedust (Jan 12, 2010)

I don't want to use Expanded Universe events wholesale.  If we use them, we might as well use everything.  11aby is great, sure, but I don't want to use things that are more obscure and might confuse newer players, or more casual fans of Star Wars.  


  Moving the Jedi Temple to Yavin 4 is cool enough.  I was thinking more like having a Jedi outpost somewhere in the system, someplace unique... like a local Degoba where the PCs can get trained.
      I was thinking the Jedi Moon could be a desert with caves beneath the surface filled with crystals useful in making holocrons.  As well it is strong with the Force, allowing Force ghosts to talk to anyone who visits them, for guidance and training.  It won't be *the* temple, just a local place to meet between adventures, not too far from the Cantina.  That way, if there is local trouble, the PCs are the Jedi on call to deal with it.

I don't know where the planet should be.  Certainly not in the Core per se, but fully outer rim I'm not sure about.  

I think a war between the Hutts and the Empire will confuse from the more important battle between the Alliance and the Empire.  The Hutts can act as go-betweens and brokers, as smugglers and criminals: a loose cannon, free agents.


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## Insight (Jan 12, 2010)

The New Republic also has other interests on Yavin IV.  In fact, New Republic Intelligence is located on Yavin IV prior to Luke establishing the Jedi Praexeum there.  Definitely makes sense that our characters (or certainly the Jedi characters) would be sent from Yavin to do missions.

I think the Jedi as well as New Republic Intelligence would be interested in what the remaining Imperials are doing.  Perhaps there's something in neighboring Haon of interest to both the Imperial Remnant and the Hutts, and perhaps the New Republic and the Jedi want to stop them from obtaining it.  Perhaps it's the Hutts who have possession of (whatever this is) and the Republic and Empire are competing to wrest it from the Hutts.


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## fireinthedust (Jan 13, 2010)

Okay, so Yavin 4 is the base of the Rebellion proper, and the Jedi in particular; it's also in the movies, so I think we're good.  However, in the EU I know they had the Jedi school moved to a refitted Star Destroyer... which is also wicked cool.  The emphasis is that we can do whatever we want, outside the massive, cumbersome EU.  


      I still think we should have local headquarters for all major groups, though.  It's just practical for the Home System idea.  Heck, for a cohesive Living Setting, I think we need to keep that stuff in mind: what are we in need of for the game, rather than to keep in line with stuff that would make the game less effective.
      I'm not against Yavin 4, I just don't think it's necessary for Jedi PCs to scoot back there between adventures when everyone else can just go to the Cantina.  
         Also, not all missions will be for the Jedi or the Rebellion, unless that's a theme of the Setting; but Bounty Hunters will need payment for service, so those PCs would get bonus cash for just showing up, and that's not fair in the long run; so if we don't have a local Jedi hideout it doesn't make sense that the same Jedi would go back to the same system over and over for every game.

If there's a reason for being in the system it should be big.  Like, there's a lot of mining and resources here.  Or the route is on a Hyperspace route, and good for re-supplying.  There should be a Jedi outpost, or Jedi who have been told to hang out with a particular long-term group, like House Organa.  This should be over and above a one-mission or even one campaign, because we're talking about potentially dozens of players in many groups all going about totally different adventures (albeit likely all over the galaxy).


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 13, 2010)

Hhmmm... Who would of thought it would be so hard to find a suitable starting point? lol   Doesn't Yavin IV have an old jedi temple on it?  It's easy enough to have Luke start an attempt to re-establish it.  The star destroyer is pretty cool, but hard to explain how one group can find it easily without the others knowing where it is.

I'm not sure what you mean by local headquarters.  Do you mean like ... a starting point for everyone or a main area for say, scoundrels.   I don't like the idea of having each class have a different local headquarter, since that seems to say "start here or else."  

Bounty hunters... are new, thus not famous.  Most would probably be eager to get paid, hence no money up front.  No name = no downpayment.  

I vote that you pick a town near the jedi temple (or even have the rebel base be more or less built onto the jedi temple), and name the cantina in it.  That's an easy yet effective starting point.


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## Insight (Jan 13, 2010)

I believe that using the Extended Universe (EU) up to 11 ABY is the easiest way to find a starting point.  It is the path of least resistance and allows players and GMs who want to research background material some source of information that we don't have to provide.  

In fact, I propose that we spend as little time as possible on setting and throw our efforts into adventures and the overall campaign plot.  We already have these great setting resources at our disposal.  Why not make use of them?

Going from that point (11 ABY), we establish that everything else is changeable.  Thus, things that happen in Living SWSE trump anything else in EU post whatever we decide is the exact starting point (Luke creating the Praexeum, perhaps?).  We could also make exceptions to the EU from ROTJ to 11 ABY if it suits the campaign (but these need to be explicitly spelled out in the campaign documents).

The obvious exception to "not working on setting" would be the Haon system itself.  We do need to come up with the basics of the system: its planets, its other astronomical features, its species (if any), and its power groups (the New Republic, the Imperial Remnant, the Hutts, others).  Another important point - I mentioned in a prior post that there's "something" in the Haon system important enough to warrant Republic, Imperial, and Hutt attention.  We don't necessarily have to decide right now what that is, but I think it will come up down the road as we build the campaign.


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## fireinthedust (Jan 13, 2010)

OnlytheStrong said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by local headquarters.  Do you mean like ... a starting point for everyone or a main area for say, scoundrels.   I don't like the idea of having each class have a different local headquarter, since that seems to say "start here or else."




Not exactly, I'm thinking more like particular organizations.  Interests in-system that allow us to go to them for information or adventures related to that group.

Jedi HQ:  Go there for information on the Force, to stay if you're new in town, to heal the Jedi way, to repair your lightsabre.

Cantina/Space port:  Go there to find a wretched hive of scum and villainy, to sell or pawn stolen/found goods, to talk to the Bothan info-dealer who runs the Cantina, borrow cash from the Hutt who owns the casino, and hire bounty hunters to pick off the PC of the GM from your last adventure 

Impiral HQ:  Go there when Leia is kidnapped and you need to rescue her, or if you have a death wish for any other reason.

House Organa HQ:  go there when you're on the run and need to get something back to the Alliance (not necessarily the Jedi).  

Think of it like Casablanca, or some other small city with Embassies curing the Cold War (or even a hot one): lots of potential for adventure hooks because there are lots of groups always there for whatever reason.



> Bounty hunters... are new, thus not famous.  Most would probably be eager to get paid, hence no money up front.  No name = no downpayment.




Yes, but they're getting paid above what the other PCs are getting paid; the ones who are ordered by the Jedi or the Alliance.  BH's need to cover costs, but they also want profit.  Jedi don't work for profit (and Force Training costs a feat), so the Bounty Hunters and/or Scoundrels who are unaffiliated with any group get more cash than anyone else.  When you can buy a ship or bigger guns at any level, that'll add up.  Ie: we the Judges will have to deal with it at some point.



> I vote that you pick a town near the jedi temple (or even have the rebel base be more or less built onto the jedi temple), and name the cantina in it.  That's an easy yet effective starting point.




I like the Yavin IV idea, though.  Just... there's one higher level Jedi who acts locally and all other Jedi answer to him/her, who then calls back to Luke on Yavin or Coruscant.  It'd be like meeting back at Obiwann's home on Tattooine: it's not the Jedi Temple, it's just the local place from which the Jedi can act.  That's what I mean, not two temples.

Insight:  I like what you're saying.  I'd like to have us jump 10/11 years ahead from ROTJ, I'm just worried that... well, other than the Zahn novels, and some Vong books, I'm lost in the EU.  That's why I prefer the Movies/clone wars/Droids cartoon sources: I know them.  Other things I read, like the cuddly bunny version of Yoda they found on Yavin, I'm not such a big fan of; and I don't know how good this stuff would be for the game, y'know?  If we have the movies as core, it means anyone can be up to speed in, like, a day (well, with some modifications, obviously).      
     Could we pick what events in those 11 years post-endor we want to keep for the setting?  

I think we should make a Wiki at some point.  We should have it for Haon-setting stuff, and for Larger-setting stuff (anything beyond Haon).


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## Insight (Jan 13, 2010)

We can definitely take EU material from ROTJ up to say 15 ABY (that'd be around a decade after ROTJ) and just exclude what we don't want as part of the campaign.  We absolutely need to list all of these exceptions on a wiki (as was mentioned) so that people familiar with (or researching) the EU won't get confused.  It will also help those of us developing adventures to all be on the same page.  The wiki will be a great boon to the development of this campaign.  I have some ideas already.


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## Insight (Jan 13, 2010)

*Power Groups & Plot*
Here are some basic ideas I have about starting the campaign and what might be going on in the Haon system and neighboring Yavin.

Note: These are just _my ideas_ and are not to be taken as set in stone or anything.

*** The quoted information and links are courtesy of Wookiepedia ***

*The New Republic*
Link



			
				Imperial Resurgence said:
			
		

> One of the first major tests came in 9 ABY when Grand Admiral Thrawn assumed control of the remnants of the Empire and led a successful campaign against the New Republic. Political infighting hampered the Republic's response to the crisis early on, as ambitious councilors like Borsk Fey'lya sought to gain power at the expense of others. Despite numerous defeats and setbacks, the New Republic rallied again, finally achieving victory during the Battle of Bilbringi. Thrawn was dead and his forces in retreat. Sensing that the defeat of the Empire was in their grasp, the New Republic launched a series of operations into the remaining sections of the galaxy still held by the Empire. The victory was short lived.
> 
> A year after Thrawn's death, the resurrected Emperor Palpatine led a major Imperial offensive originating from the Deep Core. Faced with superior forces, including a number of superweapons, the New Republic was forced to fall back and operate in much the same way as the Rebel Alliance had. Ultimately the New Republic was saved by the death of the Emperor during a skirmish on Onderon, thanks to the efforts of Jedi Master Luke Skywalker.






			
				Reorganization & Reform said:
			
		

> Upon the successful recapture of Coruscant in 11 ABY, the New Republic Senate began the first of a series of government restructuring programs. Specialized councils were established, each with greater power than ordinary Senate committees and given the responsibility for a specific aspect of government. These included the Council on the Common Defense, the Council on Security and Intelligence, the Justice Council, the Ministry Council, the Council on Science and Technology, and the Commerce Council.






			
				Yavin 4 said:
			
		

> Following the defeat of the Galactic Empire in 4 ABY at the Battle of Endor, the New Republic presumably took back the jungle moon from the Empire. The small village of Vornez was established and the Senate Planetary Intelligence Network was headquartered on Yavin 4 though it would later be replaced by New Republic Intelligence.




In the time period we've discussed setting the campaign, the New Republic is still setting down its foundation, gathering allegiance from disparate worlds, and trying to deal with some extant threats (mainly the Imperial Remnant and various lawless worlds throughout the galaxy).  The base on Yavin IV is mostly for New Republic Intelligence, which seems to me to be a good place to launch missions for the PCs.

The New Republic's interests in the Haon system are really what needs to be decided.  I suggest that Haon is a fairly lawless system and the New Republic would like to settle it down.  There are two Hutts in the Haon system and the Republic would like to either root them out of Haon or at least enter into some sort of power-sharing agreement with them.  The New Republic is also investigating why the Imperial Remnant is moving into Haon and what they might be after.

Campaign: 

 The Republic is currently seeking to unify its holdings in both the Mid and Outer Rim worlds.  It has targeted the Haon system, rich in resources and located along a major hyperspace route, as suitable for its attention.  Haon's proximity to Yavin is also cause for concern.
 Growing concerned over Imperial interest in the Haon system, the New Republic is drawing up plans to send spies into the system to learn exactly why the Empire has come to Haon.
 Republic settlers have set down on the giant water planet, En, building both surface and underwater colonies there.

*The Jedi Praxeum*
Link



			
				History said:
			
		

> Once the project was sanctioned by Chief of State Mon Mothma, Skywalker asked Leia Organa Solo to come up with a location to setup the academy. Mon Mothma suggested Yavin IV to Leia who in turn recommended it to Luke. Luke agreed that Yavin IV was the perfect location. He decided to set it up in the Great Temple that housed the earlier Alliance base.






			
				New Jedi Order said:
			
		

> Slow in developing, it existed for a number of years as a disparate group of Force-sensitives with various degrees of training. After a first attempt to train new Knights was foiled by the Reborn Emperor, Luke Skywalker initiated the first formal training school for Jedi in decades, the Jedi Praxeum on Yavin 4. Starting with an initial group of 12 students, the Order slowly grew in numbers and stature, becoming a core part of the New Republic that sponsored it.




Regardless of the exact date we decide to start the campaign, Master Luke Skywalker has just formed his Jedi Praxeum.  Whether he has literally just formed it and has no students or he has a few students, but not the full 12, that is up for debate.   The New Republic very much respects Skywalker and the New Jedi Order and wishes them to return to prominence.  The Republic, therefore, would not be opposed to having Jedi be sent on important Republic missions.  The trick for Master Skywalker and any other Jedi teachers would be to get their apprentices ready for such deployment.

Campaign:

 Master Luke Skywalker has returned to Yavin IV from his mission to locate pupils suitable to form the first class of the New Jedi Order.  During his travels, Luke came across the Ithorian, Thideer, strong in the Force, and has tasked Master Thideer with finding additional students.  Master Thideer is likely the one who will be in constant contact with Jedi characters.
 Skywalker has just completed the transformation of the ancient Massassi temple on Yavin IV into the new "Jedi Praxeum".
 Experiencing visions, Master Skywalker has contacted New Republic Intelligence, requesting that they search the neighboring Haon system for some unknown object of great importance.

*The Imperial Remnant*
Link



> The Imperial Remnant, sometimes called the New Order with a Personal Face, was the faction comprising what remained of the Galactic Empire following the collapse of the functioning government after the Battle of Endor, but more specifically following the reunification of the Deep Core warlords by Admiral Natasi Daala and the subsequent campaigns of expansion and stability under Gilad Pellaeon between 12–13 ABY.






			
				Timeline said:
			
		

> 4 ABY—following the first death of Palpatine at the Battle of Endor.
> 11 ABY—following the final death of Palpatine.
> 11 ABY—several months after that, following the death of the last Galactic Emperor, Xandel Carivus.
> 12 ABY—following the unification of the Deep Core warlords by Admiral Daala and the subsequent campaigns of expansion and unification undertaken by Gilad Pellaeon.




In terms of the EU, I suggest anything related to Thrawn be kept intact.  The page I linked describes the Thrawn stuff pretty well.  If we want to set the campaign during or just before Thrawn returns, that is a definite possibility.  The salient point that needs to be decided is whether or not Thrawn would be a part of the campaign.  If so, the campaign has to start after 8 ABY.  This page describes what happens with Thrawn, the circumstances of his return to the "known galaxy", and his ultimate demise.  

If we don't use Thrawn, the campaign can start at any time after around 5 ABY or so.

Campaign: 

 The Empire has established several mining colonies on Surrom 6, a rocky moon of the gas giant, Surrom.  Imperial forces are spending a great deal of effort protecting the colonies and keeping secret their activities.
 Grand Moff Bel'Janeer, an admiral prior to the fall of the Empire, has been sent from Bastion to establish a base of operations on Llessur, a tiny ice planet at the far end of the Haon system.
 Rumors abound of a "Grand Admiral" returning from deep space to bolster the Empire's forces.  -- Obviously, ignore this unless we plan to use Thrawn in the campaign.

*The Hutts*
Link



			
				Hutt Empire said:
			
		

> During the rule of the Galactic Empire, Hutt Space was reduced in size to what was called the Hutt Sector; it was governed by Moff Sarn Shild, and later by Moff Yref Orgege, though their authority was weak at best. The heart of the region contained the Bootana Hutta, the "Garden of Hutts", an area containing the various kajidic throneworlds. Even in the Empire's days, this area remained secretive to outsiders, who knew it only through rumors.
> 
> From the fragmentation of the Empire to the Yuuzhan Vong War, Hutt Space seemed to have remain largely autonomous, and was sometimes still referred to as the Hutt Empire even during this period.




My thoughts here are that there are one or more Hutts setting up shop (or have already done so) in the Haon system.  The Hutts could be in Haon for a number of reasons.  It might have been one of those systems the Empire never really controlled (and was thus lawless for a long time).  It might be that Haon is strategically located along an important hyperspace route.  It might attract bounty hunters for one reason or another.

Campaign:

Young Jordi the Hutt moved into the Haon system around 3 BBY and has held power on the largest world in the Haon system, the water planet, En.  From his great floating palace, Jordi rules not only En, but also neighboring Midrag and Surrom.
Ezmelda the Hutt runs the system's only grand casino, located on her huge luxury liner, the Excelsior.  The ship also features a hotel, a cantina, a shopping district, and even a mini spaceport.


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## fireinthedust (Jan 13, 2010)

I would prefer that, instead of stating what we're going to change, we stated explicitly what we're going to keep.  The reason being that not all the material is worth keeping, and rather than going over all of it with a fine-toothed comb, we could pick out the seeds we like and grow the campaign we want, leaving the chaffe behind.


Thrawn:  I really liked the guy, and I think we should keep him in the campaign.  He would be a fantastic Empire leader.  In fact, his rise in power would be a great kick-off point for the campaign.

The other empire stuff, like the reappearance of Palpatine, the other emperors, and suchnot: I don't want to wade through piles of less-well-written books just so I can GM or keep up with the discussion here.

I'd see the timeline like this:  After the battle of Endor, the rebels pressed their advantage.  The Empire held its own for a while, but the leadership buckled without Vader and the Emperor keeping the strong-willed admirals and moffs in line.  Slowly the Remnant lost ground over the decade, until it finally held its place in about a quarter of the galaxy.  Rumour has it a new leader is rising through the ranks, a brilliant strategist known as Grand Admiral Thrawn...

Haon could then serve as a port of call between the various sectors of the galaxy.  Launching a Rebel group into their space, or taking in refugees smuggled across their boardersn is one thing.  Meeting Hutts and working for them is another.

I say we keep it simple.  Then we can add to it what we want.


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## Insight (Jan 14, 2010)

If we're going to keep Thrawn, he should be in his proper chronology.  It would just be easier for people to understand without changing the circumstances of the Zahn books, which are fairly well known to SW fans.

Thrawn first appears around 9 ABY, which is about 5 years after ROTJ.  If we want to start the campaign at that point, I think that could work.


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## fireinthedust (Jan 14, 2010)

I loved the Zahn books.  I don't know that we have to keep the timeline or novel info straight per se; I think we can get away with nerfing it for the sake of the setting.  Imagine movies fans show up and hear about Thrawn for the first time!  Also, we can ignore the way he went down like a chump... kinda like how everyone looks the other way when Boba Fett went down in ROTJ.  Look, he's back, it's magical!  

Granted, what specific events do we like about the interim period?  Do we care that Palpatine came back in a clone body?  Would we want to have that as an event that happens in the Setting the our PCs get to deal with?

How good were the books, and can we pick specifically the awesome ones and say "yeah, those are ok" and the rest say "they never happened" (like how I watch Revenge of the Sith and Attack of the Clones, but pretend Phantom Menace never happened)?


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 14, 2010)

The only problem I am having with what you all are talking about... is that it seems to be a ton of personal preference.  No offence, but not everyone is going to agree with you about who/what they want in the game.  The less we actually have to mess with, the better.  

The advantage L4W has over us is that their isn't as much material.  I would think that we should leave most of the stuff alone.  Not do a bunch of adding and subtracting.  My fear is that if you pick and choose parts and invent things... we will lose people.  

I'm afraid we are getting too... creative for lack of a more fitting word.  People will invent plenty of adventures/scenarios.  Adventures need to be approved, so we can head off anything that doesn't seem to mesh.  

I don't mean to be a killjoy, I just really want to see this happen.  If we go messing with alot of things... then I think more people will be turned off than turned on to the game.


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## Insight (Jan 14, 2010)

OnlytheStrong said:


> The only problem I am having with what you all are talking about... is that it seems to be a ton of personal preference.  No offence, but not everyone is going to agree with you about who/what they want in the game.  The less we actually have to mess with, the better.
> 
> The advantage L4W has over us is that their isn't as much material.  I would think that we should leave most of the stuff alone.  Not do a bunch of adding and subtracting.  My fear is that if you pick and choose parts and invent things... we will lose people.
> 
> ...




This is why I suggested we spend the majority of our efforts on the campaign and not the setting.  We have Haon as our own campaign sandbox and I think we should leave external EU stuff alone.  

I propose we just pick a date to start the campaign and just accept that the EU stuff (aside from something that might directly invalidate something in our campaign) is unchanged.  The closer we start the game to ROTJ, the less EU stuff we need to worry about.  Starting the game prior to the Zahn books would actually help in this regard; there isn't a whole lot between ROTJ and the first Zahn book.


----------



## Insight (Jan 14, 2010)

I have updated my "thoughts on power sources" post, above, with "rumors" and little tidbits we can use to get the campaign started.


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## Insight (Jan 14, 2010)

In terms of the hyperspace route passing through the Haon system (and thus attracting attention to the system), the Hydian Way seems to fit the bill.  It bisects the space between Yavin and the Imperial Remnant and that's about where I've proposed Haon be located.


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## fireinthedust (Jan 15, 2010)

OnlytheStrong said:


> The only problem I am having with what you all are talking about... is that it seems to be a ton of personal preference.  No offence, but not everyone is going to agree with you about who/what they want in the game.  The less we actually have to mess with, the better.
> 
> The advantage L4W has over us is that their isn't as much material.  I would think that we should leave most of the stuff alone.  Not do a bunch of adding and subtracting.  My fear is that if you pick and choose parts and invent things... we will lose people.
> 
> ...




L4W has less material in the setting because it's homebrew.  I think we'd get the same thing if we ignored the EU after the movies.  All we need is to say that 10 years (or so) have passed.  

The big issue with a SW game is picking the timeline.  It means accepting things we might not want, and that complicates everything.  Suddenly adventures have to be judged based on what's happening in source material everyone doesn't have easy access to.

Imagine this: you're trying to run an FR game.  You want to set it in Anauroch, and you only have the FRCS.  Suddenly you discover that in a novel series you've never heard of someone placed a band of evil fey vampires right where your village is.
     Or, worse, we've invented the Haon system.  Lucasfilm decides a year or two in that the Hylian Way has a massive gap of systems that don't have life in them, or just no stars in the way.  Suddenly we realize that we're nowhere near any of our neighbours, and it invalidates *everything* we've been assuming.

Not only that, but the book was set between other books that were out when we were designing this setting.  Suddenly there's this massively-popular trilogy that's set between ROTJ and Zahn, and "you just don't have Star Wars without it, because it ties up all these loose ends".  

That's why I propose a scorched Earth policy for events between the movies and the start of our setting.  We tell people going in that this is the case.  They can have mandalorian armor if they want, and styled just like the wicked-cool villain they love; it's just not his in the same way as it would have been if said novel series (which we haven't read) had happened. 
     Like, I'm not just saying don't work with the EU: I'm saying ignore the EU unless it's worked into an adventure.  If it isn't the movies/tv shows, it's a problem.  One either has to ignore it or include it.


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## fireinthedust (Jan 15, 2010)

Insight said:


> In terms of the hyperspace route passing through the Haon system (and thus attracting attention to the system), the Hydian Way seems to fit the bill.  It bisects the space between Yavin and the Imperial Remnant and that's about where I've proposed Haon be located.





I like this.  Sounds good.


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## Insight (Jan 16, 2010)

I understans fire's concerns about EU continuity, but honestly, I seriously doubt anything is going to come along and invalidate anything we do in the campaign.  We have chosen a very specific time frame for the game and with the Zahn books looming in our timeline (whether we start the game with Thrawn or not), the likelihood of someone picking that exact time (and part of the galaxy) to start a trilogy seems unlikely.

Besides, even if that did happen, we could always adjust our campaign if it becomes a huge problem.

I think we gain a lot more by using the EU material than by ignoring/banning it.


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## fireinthedust (Jan 16, 2010)

Insight said:


> I understans fire's concerns about EU continuity, but honestly, I seriously doubt anything is going to come along and invalidate anything we do in the campaign.  We have chosen a very specific time frame for the game and with the Zahn books looming in our timeline (whether we start the game with Thrawn or not), the likelihood of someone picking that exact time (and part of the galaxy) to start a trilogy seems unlikely.




"the odds... are approximately three thousand, seven hundred and twenty to one!"  
     I hope you know you've basically *told* Lucasfilm to do this very thing, eh?  ((throws salt over shoulder, turns three times and spits))

Okay, fine by me, then.  We can even be *after* the Thrawn series, and I'll just run a game with this in mind.

But we'll need a way to transport Jedi from Yavin to the sector.  The premise can be that the Alliance always wants some Jedi to be stationed in this boarder system to the Empire, and be on the lookout for trouble.  Anywhere the Force leads them after that is fine, keeping that in mind.
     Also, we should increase the numbers of Jedi who've been training at Yavin.  We'll maybe have piles of PC jedi, still not many by Galactic standards of population, but it would make sense.

We should be creative with the Haon system, and En, for sure.  It's a setting, it needs a baseline of people in it that serve as setting important-people.

1)  Hive of scum and villainy:  we need crooks to hang out here, and space traders, smugglers, etc.  Makes sense for a system with traffic like Haon.

2)  Alliance Embassy:  I vote for House Organa.  It's an organization detailed in Force Unleashed, and allows for plots involving Leia and others.  In theory set on En where all the aforementioned refugees-turned-citizens live (I really like that idea, too).

3)  Planets in the system and what they're like.  We could leave this vague and have a pile of planets and moons for GMs to work with (like Firefly had).  Haon could be a great place to disappear with so many options.  
Or not:  we could have several specific planets, each with a particular purpose.  The rest of the galaxy the GMs can add their own environments, obviously, which is simple to not worry about.

4)  I'd really like to have a Jedi outpost, if not a temple.  If people want to be all Jedi-emo, they'll enjoy having a place to hangout other than Yavin.


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## Insight (Jan 16, 2010)

fireinthedust said:


> But we'll need a way to transport Jedi from Yavin to the sector.  The premise can be that the Alliance always wants some Jedi to be stationed in this boarder system to the Empire, and be on the lookout for trouble.  Anywhere the Force leads them after that is fine, keeping that in mind.




If Haon is adjacent to Yavin (which I suggested before), they can use starships to get there.  Heck, even if it isn't adjacent.

It makes more sense for Haon to be located next to Yavin than next to the Imperial Remnant.



> Also, we should increase the numbers of Jedi who've been training at Yavin.  We'll maybe have piles of PC jedi, still not many by Galactic standards of population, but it would make sense.




... starting at Level 1, which is about where they should be if Luke or Master Thideer finds them.



> We should be creative with the Haon system, and En, for sure.  It's a setting, it needs a baseline of people in it that serve as setting important-people.
> 
> 1)  Hive of scum and villainy:  we need crooks to hang out here, and space traders, smugglers, etc.  Makes sense for a system with traffic like Haon.
> 
> ...




If you don't mind, take a look at my long post on Page 3.  I believe a lot of these points are suggested therein.


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## fireinthedust (Jan 18, 2010)

Insight said:


> If Haon is adjacent to Yavin (which I suggested before), they can use starships to get there.  Heck, even if it isn't adjacent.
> 
> It makes more sense for Haon to be located next to Yavin than next to the Imperial Remnant.








> ... starting at Level 1, which is about where they should be if Luke or Master Thideer finds them.




Don't know who Thideer is, but that's okay.  If we're skipping past the Zahn books, would Mara Jade be at the Temple yet?





> If you don't mind, take a look at my long post on Page 3.  I believe a lot of these points are suggested therein.




Yes, I did.  Thank you for it.  I was aiming to focus on particulars becaaaause: I think we have enough interest for a starter game (you, me, everyone else) using what we've got.  So I wanted to get those particulars down pat so I could use them in a quick encounter. 

or if someone else wants to do it, I have a character in mind I'd like to try: tech specialist-type Scoundrel Ewok.  He's been off Endor for a while, and for the last ten years he's been curious about the blasters and suchnot left by the Empire.  He started off just putting things together with some instruction by friendly rebels.  Rules-wise I can do it.
     Or I could play a Jedi I've been thinking about for a while.  Still has the Mechanics aspect to him, but that's ok.

Then, if this doesn't work out, no problem.  If it does, we can say "okay, we've got a foundation here".

What do you think?


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## fireinthedust (Jan 19, 2010)

Also:  I'm planning on *not* doing anything to hammer out the setting as GM.  Just in case anyone's as paranoid as I am.     If a character is popular, or a site seems cool on En's Spaceport, feel free to use it.  I'm just thinking of trying out... y'know... something.

Do we have enough, or should we talk more?


And is there anything we should vote on?  Or decide before we do anything?


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## garyh (Jan 19, 2010)

fireinthedust said:


> What do you think?




I think "zabrak Jedi ."


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 19, 2010)

I'm actually fine with what all has been discussed.  I've been... afk for a few days lol Only posting the game games I am in.  Do we need to start a wiki page to hold the rules/setting information?  Or will that be done in the "stickied" posts?  

I am far from a wiki wizard, heck I barely can use a template lol.  Either of you good at this or do we need to get some "outside" help lol.


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## fireinthedust (Jan 19, 2010)

OnlytheStrong said:


> Do we need to start a wiki page to hold the rules/setting information?  Or will that be done in the "stickied" posts?
> 
> I am far from a wiki wizard, heck I barely can use a template lol.  Either of you good at this or do we need to get some "outside" help lol.





Outside = more = merrier.

I didn't sticky anything, but I think we've agreed on the timeline (11 years post-rotj), and the system/planet Hoan/En.  En has refugees from Alderan and other worlds.  

I don't think it got ratified, but did we agree whether Haon could be on the border of Empire space?  It's not getting rid of Yavin; maybe Hyperspace is faster between the two systems for some reason.  There were just good vibes for me about having it be a jumping-off point for the Alliance's missions to liberate it.




I'll just be doing a short adventure, to see what works and what doesn't.  Whatever we don't like, we scrap and fix.

Char Gen:  let's use the array 16, 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, before species, arranged to taste.  

Core book is fine, though I propose we also use the Droid rules from Scavenger's Guide, Droids = equipment; can we vote on that?


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 19, 2010)

I actually don't have access to the scavenger's guide... So I don't think I'm going to be able to vote on it.


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 19, 2010)

One thing we will need.... is a template for character sheets lol.

I'm going to roll a character for your sample game if ya dont' mind.  If ya do..... then I'll roll it and use it for something else lol.  One thing I would like to chat about is each step of the creation process.  I'm not about to argue with how you want to run a game lol.  

As many of my friends can tell you, I'm incredibly worried about flexibility.  That is my _only_ issues with a static ability score generation.   I think we should do a point buy, since they are simple enough and allow for people to be as good as they want to be at any given score.

Skills:  What's to talk about?

Feats:  Same as skills

okay, so apparently this post is JUST about ability scores.  Sorry lol.  I know I'm a pain, but I'm like anal-retentive about people being able to customize their characters.


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 19, 2010)

```
Name: Torin Tol   Age: 18 Years old
 Class: Jedi         Height: 2m (6'6'')
  Race: Kel Dor           
  Size: Medium          Hair: None
Gender: Male            Eyes: Black
  Skin: Peach
 

Str: 12 +1      Level:  01   
Dex: 18 +4     BAB: +1      
Con: 12 +1      HP:(30+con) 31
Int: 15 +2          
Wis: 15 +2     Speed: 6   
Cha: 10 +0      Init: +4     


   AC:  Base  Armor  Dex  Misc
          16   +3    +3    +x

            Touch AC: 13        Flatfooted AC: 13



               Total  Base   Mod  Misc   Special
Fort:            +3     2    +1          
Ref:             +3     0    +3         
Will:            +0     0    +0     


Weapon        Attack  Dam   Crit      Rng  Type 





Languages: Common, Kel Dor

Human traits:+2 to dex and wis, -2 to con; med size; speed 6; 
Keen Force Sense, Low-Light Vision

 
[b]Feats:[/b]




Skills: (trained only)
Acrobatics




Money


Equipment                 Cost    Weight
Well Made Attire         30 Gp*
Studded Leather Armor    25 Gp    20 lb
Dagger                    2 Gp     1 lb
Rapier                    2 Gp     2 Lb
Short Bow                30 Gp     2 Lb
Arrows (20)               1 Gp     3 Lb
Back pack                 2 Gp     2 Lb  At home
wine, bottle(fine)       10 Gp     1.5 Lb  At home
Rope (Silk, 50')         10 Gp     5 lb at home
Beltpouch (2)             2 Gp     1 lb
  Flint & Steel           1 Gp   
sunrods (3 )              6 Gp     3 Lb  
     Total Weight:  40.5  lb ; carrieing : 32.0 Lb

total spent: 111 GP  (start 175)


            Lgt  Med   Hvy    Lift    Push
Max Weight: 33    66  100  300  500
x
x
```


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## fireinthedust (Jan 19, 2010)

OnlytheStrong said:


> As many of my friends can tell you, I'm incredibly worried about flexibility.  That is my _only_ issues with a static ability score generation.   I think we should do a point buy, since they are simple enough and allow for people to be as good as they want to be at any given score.
> 
> Skills:  What's to talk about?
> 
> ...




The club welcomes you with open arms.  I just use that array for character generation, but yeah.  Maybe point-buy off that?  How many points do we get with that array?

Skills:  yeah, pretty routine with the Core book.

Feats:  Same.  I find a lot of them boring, though, as everyone gets to choose if they want point blank shot or not.  Talents are way more interesting than feats in SAGA.  

Standard sheets are super-needed.  I don't know squat about generating a sheet like they have for L4W, tho, but that would be ideal.  ie: a big stat block that's easy to read.


Droids:  for this game only, if you've got it, I'll allow them.  I just don't want too-too many stat blocks or actions out there.  Teh geist of them is that you use up your own actions to order your droid to do stuff.  It balances droid-owning Boba Fetts with gadget-using Boba Fetts, so one player doesn't have all 15 droids each using their own move, standard and swift actions against a lonely BBEG (which would be a boring combat massacre).


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## Yabanjin (Jan 23, 2010)

Hello! I'm building a mechanic/pilot character, and I'd like to use a couple of things outside the core book. The first web enhancement (PDF warning) adds a nice talent tree for techies, as well as a feat that allows for modding of droids, starships, and other equipment. I'd also like to use the Scavenger's Guide to Droids, since it has a firmer pricing scheme and more balanced rules for including droids as companions. How does everyone feel about including these sources?


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## fireinthedust (Jan 24, 2010)

Yabanjin said:


> Hello! I'm building a mechanic/pilot character, and I'd like to use a couple of things outside the core book. The first web enhancement (PDF warning) adds a nice talent tree for techies, as well as a feat that allows for modding of droids, starships, and other equipment. I'd also like to use the Scavenger's Guide to Droids, since it has a firmer pricing scheme and more balanced rules for including droids as companions. How does everyone feel about including these sources?





Sounds good to me, with one note:  higher level Droids are a bit much for a low-level Living game.  I think we should:

1)  set a power level limit for droids, like you can get an Astromech Droid or protocol droid, or a medical droid; but battle droids with turrets on them are a bad idea.  There is one in there, a walking turret, and some higher level droids.  
     Maybe limit the level of the droid to that of the players?  Any higher should only be with the particular GM who allowed the droid for that character (ie: if you're on my adventure and I let you have a walking turret, it's in the shop if you go adventuring with Onlythestrong's adventure series).

YES for level limit of droids
YES for scavenger's guide's DROIDS AS EQUIPMENT rules.

2)  Scavenger's guide to droids:  I propose we allow the protocol rules for droids-as-equipment.  We can wait on this, as I'll allow it for my adventure right now.  Maybe wait for more debate before it's official.


3)  Allow the pdf.  It's free off the website, and it's basically canon.  I haven't calculated everything with it, but I think it'll be fine.  I vote YES for this.


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 24, 2010)

Yes to the pdf




Quick topic for debate... if someone wants to play a droid... why not just buy a droid and rp both persons?  Also.... we need to find a hard and fast rule for limiting the level of the droids.


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## fireinthedust (Jan 25, 2010)

rping a droid in addition to your character, means you have two characters.  That's a lot of additional actions, and negates the need for other characters in the group.  Imagine a Jedi with an Astromech: mechanics, piloting and science knowledge, maybe even treat injury, and perception rolls to spy on other characters and report back to the Jedi, plus those combat stats; on top of that, a fully spec'd Jedi with force powers and a lightsabre in combat.  A droid as equipment, at least the Jedi gets to spend their own actions to order it around.

Well, I guess it wouldn't be too bad to have the player RP the droid.  Just so long as they're not earning their own XP or taking a share of the party treasure/rewards.  Like 3po or r2d2: they're Luke/Leia's equipment.  

And they should be of an appropriate stat-block level so the PCs are still the best choice to take particular actions.

wow: I'm actually torn on this!  I've never played it in-game before, so I don't know.  Let's start with the pdf, and I'll try it in my game and get back to this thread for the official ruling.


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 25, 2010)

I...... think it would be wise to disallow combat droids (like battledroids, supers, etc).  I mean, if one of those rolled in on a jedi in a cantina... there is either gonna be scrap metal soon or a dead jedi.  

As far as astromechs... yeah there are alot of bonus' you can have by owning one.  I'd think the main drawback would be the pain the butt it would be to drag the slow thing around.  

idk, we'll have to find an appropriate way to balance it.


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## knightemplar (Jan 26, 2010)

I don't mind DM'ing. I already have http://www.enworld.org/forum/playing-game/265574-star-trek-ascendant-shakedown-cruise-ic.html going on. I prefer to tell tales of Scum and Villany then Jedi epics though. 

My only concern if we keep the game mostly relegated to the Hoan system, it might put players off. It is one of the reasons why I never really played the RPGA version of the Living Campaign, and just made my own campaigns.

I have run FtF games and visited Tat, Cloud City, and such where players have seen them in the movies. I have also used walk-ons such as Talon Karrde in which might have some work for them. In my opinion, a lot of players would like to walk through places such as Chalmun's Cantina in Mos Eisley or meet some one like Mara Jade. 

What about on the Wiki, you would seperate it by planet or system and have the DM's note certain NPCs they use. This way other DM's can use them if they want or not. The way I am doing it for the Star Trek campaign is listing the name, where they are, an appearance, a personality, and a short history. As I flesh the NPC out more, then I add a few more notes about him on the background thread for the game. Here is an example of an NPC that I used in my last Smuggler campaign:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Prello (NPC)*

*Assignment:* Minor Hutt Crimelord
*System: *Tatooine
*Species:* Hutt (Female)

*Image:* She is a young Hutt female, with a dark olive coloring. She seems rather slender and more athletic than most hutts that have been seen. She will be seen actually walking in public, and not conveyed on a hover chair. 

*Personality:* She actively calls all of her retainers 'Darling', and seems to actively care for their health. It is not the first time she has hired some one to go find one of her employees when they have come up missing. She is very reluctant to part with her employees, and when it happens, has kept in touch just in case they needed something. It is almost as if she sees her employees as her own children. 

*History:* She is the oldest daughter of Popara the Hutt, and represents his interests on Tatooine. She came here ten years ago, and has a nice comfortable townhouse in the newer section of Mos Eisley. There have been rumors that even Jabba has found her interesting and has thought of trying to win her affections. 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You might want to discuss rules for walk-ons for DM's to use, such as not common place or as main characters, and especially do not put them in a position in which they will have a character shoot them. 

Also what about the Black Sun, they still existed even after Xizor's death in Shadows of the Empire? Is there a place for them in the area.


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## Yabanjin (Jan 26, 2010)

knightemplar said:


> IMy only concern if we keep the game mostly relegated to the Hoan system, it might put players off.




I agree; I like the vast, sweeping expanse of the Star Wars galaxy and the feeling of near-limitless possibilities. I think the capacity to pack up and go someplace new and exciting, that no one's ever described before, is a big draw for me. Having everyone start in the same place makes it convenient to pick up people for adventures, though, so players should just make a point of stopping by the ol' watering hole when they finish a story.



knightemplar said:


> You might want to discuss rules for walk-ons for DM's to use, such as not common place or as main characters and do not put them in a position in which they will have a character shoot them.




Limit one per adventure, perhaps?


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 27, 2010)

Haon... as I understand it, is a mere starting point.  While you can keep you entire adventure there (and possibly create a planet in the process), you can still visit Tat or Mustafar or Endor or wherever.  

For some reason I can see Luke in nearly every adventure (he does train most of the jedi after all),  so why can't Han or Leia or anyone else show up?  I don't have an issue with it at all.


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## fireinthedust (Jan 27, 2010)

I have no problem with letting the PCs go after certain of the characters, if they want.  For example, if I wanted to kill Boba Fett and I actually managed to pull it off, so much the better.  That said, GMs should play their hand as deadly as they can in these instances (within the rules), simply because said NPC is so important to the setting.  As in the above example, there is no way my 1st-2nd level Ewok Mechanic should be able to take on a 14th level Boba Fett played well.  Boba should be cunning, should think weird, and just have tricks up his sleeve in case he's attacked randomly (which he would be used to, really).  Like Bane in the Clone Wars series, he'd have a secret base in an asteroid belt just so he can lead captors there and blow it (and them) up while escaping.

  GMs shouldn't cheat, however, as that would be poor form and beneath us.  My players tend not to need my help, so I can unload on them if the adventure calls for it... well, in 4e; SAGA I'm getting used to.  Also, SAGA for me seems to be more about story than combat, so I'd only go ape sh** on them/you if it was expected or reasonable to do so (ie: "hey guys, let's go start something with that Boba Fett guy; he looks like a chump")


Hoan/Galaxy:  yeah, I'd be disappointed if we didn't use other systems/planets.  However, could we maybe have a custom or tradition of starting all adventures in Haon?  Recruiting from the Cantina, for example (which could be a great Thread name), because it gives us a place where we can say 'hey, my Living PC really is a apart of something'.  A System-sized neighbourhood, y'know?


Battle Droids:  Yeah, skip them in general?  I dunno, I mean if I have a wimpy noble I might need a Crab droid or something.  You could be right, though, and it does make sense.  Maybe no battle droids except by proposal case-by-case?  


Wiki:  How do we start one of those here?  I like the idea of writing down a heading for each of the subjects we've got, like Haon, En, etc.  But also for the NPCs and Planets outside Haon that we've charted (good one, whoever said that).  
     Do we ask one of the moderators?


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 27, 2010)

No clue on how to start a wiki page LOL


May not hurt to ask a mod... or one of the guys that help run another Living world.


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## knightemplar (Jan 27, 2010)

Just looking at the Wiki button and the instructions. I would create the table of contents which is about middle of the page, then create the new pages. A lot of the non-game rules about judges and other items can be modified from one of the other wiki's such as the Living Eberron wiki page. 

A lot of it looks like writing web pages within a content manager. You can insert pictures as well as other items, depending on your need. From what I can tell is that you only really need 1 person to set up your index and categories. Once your base Wiki is in there, then anyone can edit information on the pages. 

If I laid it out

Player's Guide - Character Generation Rules

DM's Guide - Running an Adventure/Guidelines

Setting - Which we could divide up into sectors and such and list the NPCs or Places a DM creates if they are interested in putting it up on the Wiki. 

Judging Information

List of Living SW Adventures such as characters, judge, DM, and rewards recieved. 

The Living Eberron Wiki also has a place where characters can be submitted for approval. 

One of the biggest I would suggest would be the Excel Character Generator Sagasheet from the SW forums on Wizards. It has a place where the person can just copy their Stat Blocks off the sheet. Here is where he has been posting the updated copies. 

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75862/19437218/Dont_call_it_a_generator_buthttp://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75862/19437218/Dont_call_it_a_generator_but


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## fireinthedust (Jan 27, 2010)

We'll need a page with character sheets on it that judges/players can modify, just like L4W.  A way to do math on-site would be sweet, so we can see where players screwed up and fix it (ie I had a player for 4e who was only adding his Str bonus to hit, when (all told) he had a +9 bonus at level one, not just +4 or +2 (whichever it was)).  

we'll need a page where GMs can update events that happened on each planet, and to each major NPC (Tattooine, Luke, Leia, Boba, plus self-made NPCs like Lorba the Hutt), so we can keep track of local gossip.  

GM guidelines for sure.


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## Insight (Jan 27, 2010)

knightemplar said:


> My only concern if we keep the game mostly relegated to the Haon system, it might put players off. It is one of the reasons why I never really played the RPGA version of the Living Campaign, and just made my own campaigns.
> 
> I have run FtF games and visited Tat, Cloud City, and such where players have seen them in the movies. I have also used walk-ons such as Talon Karrde in which might have some work for them. In my opinion, a lot of players would like to walk through places such as Chalmun's Cantina in Mos Eisley or meet some one like Mara Jade.




I agree with these sentiments.  Haon can be a jumping off point for Living SWSE but unlike Living Force, which was limited to one system, I believe that we can and should have adventures that take place elsewhere.  The SW universe is well large enough to accomodate all sorts of play styles and adventure types.

Being able to space travel is an integral part of the Star Wars experience and Living Force utterly failed in this regard.  Let's not make the same mistake.


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## Insight (Jan 27, 2010)

One thing that's pretty important to a Living-style game is the idea that adventures are playable by multiple groups of players.  What we need to determine is how best to archive adventures that we've created for the campaign so that GMs can get them but players cannot.  I suppose people that play and GM will be able to access them but that's not as big a deal.

And in doing this, we actually need to create adventures.  The campaign can't move forward at all without them.  The initial adventure that fireinthedust is running can either be the first official LSWSE adventure or it can be viewed as a test to see how it goes.  If it is going to be an official adventure, it will need to be submitted as such at some point.

I would like to offer my services as a Story Coordinator.  What I would do is organize the adventures (including coming up with a good format for the official adventures) and also write some of them myself.  I would help authors write and organize their adventures and also answer GM questions about an adventure.


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## fireinthedust (Jan 27, 2010)

Insight said:


> One thing that's pretty important to a Living-style game is the idea that adventures are playable by multiple groups of players.  What we need to determine is how best to archive adventures that we've created for the campaign so that GMs can get them but players cannot.  I suppose people that play and GM will be able to access them but that's not as big a deal.





I don't agree with this.  I don't see this in a pbp forum, simply because of the nature of pbp.  The second we start one, players and lurkers can read everything that's happened so far.  RPGA stuff is all the same, but not "living" per se.  Cool idea, but not for pbp.  It just won't work.
The other Living Worlds don't do this, they have individual GMs running adventures in the same world, with repercussions felt by other campaigns.  In L4W there was a fire in one game, and in my group we had to avoid it while moving to and from the docks.

However, I could see a setting-wide event happening for multiple groups.  Example:  The Empire is attacking one of the planets of Haon, so multiple groups can get involved in fighting them off.  The Rebellion/Alliance has given each group a mission, which will make it possible to save the day at the end.
      ROTJ:  one group on the planet with the shield generator, one group in space fighting tie-fighters, and a third "group" in the throne room lightsabre-fighting.

I have an idea, Insight, if we want to get started on one now.  We need more than one group's worth of players, however, but if this floats your boat I think we could ask GMs to do minor set-up work in the meantime (ie: you find a shipment of droid parts headed to location X, while "she" finds several perfectly new ships floating abandoned in space with only light scorch marks where organic crew could have been, etc., all revealed during the set up of the actual event:   "the empire has constructed a new secret weapon, and the time for our attack is now".)

again: we need more players first.


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## Insight (Jan 27, 2010)

Well, that's true.  We have no idea if this concept will even attract enough players beyond what we have now.  Not much of a "Living" game if that's the case.


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## Yabanjin (Jan 27, 2010)

fireinthedust said:


> Example:  The Empire is attacking one of the planets of Haon, so multiple groups can get involved in fighting them off.  The Rebellion/Alliance has given each group a mission, which will make it possible to save the day at the end.
> ROTJ:  one group on the planet with the shield generator, one group in space fighting tie-fighters, and a third "group" in the throne room lightsabre-fighting.




This excites me in ways I could never explain to a non-geek.


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 27, 2010)

I don't mind having an archive... could even make it the Jedi Archieve being rebuilt lol.  I don't like having it off limits to players though.  

I do like.... 3-4 GM's getting together and running 3-4 seperate groups into one HUGE fight.  That's an awesome idea.


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## knightemplar (Jan 28, 2010)

I would like to offer a suggestion though. When the adventure is over and the players are awarded their xp. How about having the DM get the same xp and the cash award, no items, to apply to one of their own characters, as long as the character is not in an active game at the time. 

This will have two rewards: 

First, most DMs like to play too. This will allow the DMs to have a character to play in other games, instead of DMing all the time. I have noticed in some of the FtF games I have played, if the DMs character is an active DMPC in the game, that the character becomes favored while in play. It might be best to have the character inactive, but still eligible to go up in experience. Also this would give the Living group a couple of extra higher level characters for a higher level module if it was introduced by one of the DMs. 

Two it might get more people to DM, since they do not have to worry about their characters being left behind. 

Also what about sectioning off certain games by level like the current 4E RPGA is doing it. Say start with games running Level 1-4, so you dont have to worry about having the characters all at the same level, but they are still within a certain range that will not overpower the other characters. 

My suggestion on the adventure database might be an outline of the adventure, as most DMs can fill in the blanks relatively easy.


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## fireinthedust (Jan 28, 2010)

would we want to section off games by level?  I say sure, but we will need characters that have been around long enough to have higher levels than the general level of the setting.  I might want to have my character tag along with more powerful Jedi, though, like in the movies.  If I'm a DM, that is, and I finish an adventure with a fun group of players, but my main PC is with a different group, I might want to have a Droid join the fun.  R2 can still repair the ship or zap battle droids while Obiwan and Anikin fight count dooko.  Not that it'd really happen that way, but maybe!


GM rewards:  if there is a set amount of XP for the game, I could see giving GMs a share of it.  It'd make my job easier so I don't have to calculate every adventure.  
    then again, what do other Living games do?  Is it as much as their adventure is worth (at which point I attack with dozens of easily defeated battle droids) or is it a reward plus the time the campaign drags on for (ie: 500xp plus 10xp per month)?


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## garyh (Jan 28, 2010)

Let me pass on something the 3e Living EN World veterans passed on to us in Living 4th Edition:  Do NOT have every PC in a shared world in a single mega-adventure.  Something goes wrong, and the entire community is in trouble.  A botched mega-adventure came VERY closed to killing Living EN World, I'm told.

As for DM's having PC's, in L4W, all the DM's have PC's.  Their PC's adventure in other DM's games.  I don't see why that won't work here.  Also, DM's in L4W get "DM Credits" that can be spent leveling up their own PC's.  6 months DMing can be cashed in for one PC level.


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## fireinthedust (Jan 28, 2010)

garyh said:


> Let me pass on something the 3e Living EN World veterans passed on to us in Living 4th Edition:  Do NOT have every PC in a shared world in a single mega-adventure.  Something goes wrong, and the entire community is in trouble.  A botched mega-adventure came VERY closed to killing Living EN World, I'm told.




Hmm...   okay, so no mega adventure per se.  However, I was thinking of having it set up where each party is its own exclusive section of the goings-on (if you will).  For every part that succeeds in its goal (by not fizzling), the Rebels go up one point in victory.  That translates to a specific thing, like one group rescues a Jedi Master in stasis since the purge (allowing for Clone Wars force powers to be used in general); another party finds a massive shipyard the alliance can use to build ships (allowing PCs to use Starships of the Galaxy fighters/transports for games).  
      Or maybe something else (cause we want access to books we buy, not just after an adventure), like in-story rewards or something.  Like, um, En isn't occupied by the Empire, or a planet doesn't get blown up or something.  Or maybe specific to the members of that party, I dunno.

I do see your point, though.  But if it was like one of those video games where your character has to do three side quests to get the special bonus material/items that they can then use for the rest of the game... that might be okay.



> As for DM's having PC's, in L4W, all the DM's have PC's.  Their PC's adventure in other DM's games.  I don't see why that won't work here.  Also, DM's in L4W get "DM Credits" that can be spent leveling up their own PC's.  6 months DMing can be cashed in for one PC level.





Really?  That's sweet!  I joinged Turtledome in the hopes an arena would let me level-farm (just a short adventure, no really... and it comes with a free Golden Gate bridge!), but DMing could help that too...


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## Insight (Jan 28, 2010)

Having not played any of the "Living" games on EN World, I have to admit that I'm a little surprised at the way it's been portrayed in this thread.  Do they not have "set" adventures that people play through, a la RPGA?  If not, then DMs are pretty much just using the same setting for their adventures.  If we're using the SW universe, how is this any different than just running a regular PBP?  I guess the main difference is that you could play the same character in different adventures.


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## garyh (Jan 28, 2010)

Insight said:


> Having not played any of the "Living" games on EN World, I have to admit that I'm a little surprised at the way it's been portrayed in this thread.  Do they not have "set" adventures that people play through, a la RPGA?  If not, then DMs are pretty much just using the same setting for their adventures.  If we're using the SW universe, how is this any different than just running a regular PBP?  I guess the main difference is that you could play the same character in different adventures.




That's correct, the current EN World Living games do NOT use adventures multiple times.  The "Living" part comes from the fact that there's dozens of PC's in the campaign that can all cross paths, and PC's can and often do swap parties between adventures.  PC's also adventure with different DM's over time.  Also, the Judge is also responsible for stepping in and finishing an adventure if a DM disappears, so there's more protection for players that their PC's will continue to exist.


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## Insight (Jan 28, 2010)

garyh said:


> That's correct, the current EN World Living games do NOT use adventures multiple times.  The "Living" part comes from the fact that there's dozens of PC's in the campaign that can all cross paths, and PC's can and often do swap parties between adventures.  PC's also adventure with different DM's over time.  Also, the Judge is also responsible for stepping in and finishing an adventure if a DM disappears, so there's more protection for players that their PC's will continue to exist.




How does the coordination work in terms of maintaining the shared setting?  Is someone (or some persons) in charge of making sure things make sense?  Is it completely free-wheeling and no one cares about consistency?


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## fireinthedust (Jan 28, 2010)

Lots of consistency, that I know of.  Judges are sort of the moderators for the setting.  I believe they're the ones who vote stuff in or out, and they approve of adventures that get run by GMs before they can advertise for players.

So, for example, if I want to explode a planet with Chewbacca on it as a GM NPC, the judges can go "are you insane?  why would you kill Chewey?!"  and veto that part of the adventure.
    They also go over monster stats and player stats, and make sure everything is kosher.  Every time I level in L4W I need to do the sheet and have the Judges say "this is okay, but you forgot such and such here".

I don't know if there should be a GMs only archive, but for sure an archive of important stuff that's freely available to all.  I might want to read it, for example.
    Then again, we could add in stuff only GMs should know, like how the Empire's secret base (that the PCs didn't discover during that module) is still in the asteroid belt; but the PC wiki says "ships go in but never return through the asteroid belt".


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## fireinthedust (Jan 28, 2010)

Also, Insight, if you have adventures you want to write but not run, I think that's brilliant.  If they're even a scenario with several sites and foes fully statted up, plus the plot that goes with them, a GM can grab them, then run the adventure for the group.  It could even have a list at the end of important events per planet, or things that could be added to the general Wiki *after* the adventure (ie: this is the time the PCs met Zap Brannigan on Tattooine, and crashed a yt1300 near the Sarlac (in case someone wants to go after it later)).
    They might not be for multiple groups to go through, but it would still be pretty cool.


Also: I tried starting up a wiki for LSW, but I... well, realized I was a deer in headlights for wiki code right now.  I need to see it done before I know what to do with it (or some other wiki), but yeah.

Also:  we need content!  Should we start up a thread here with some articles and go from there?  Vote on them, then cut/paste?


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## knightemplar (Jan 29, 2010)

So if I have a scoundrel "Scum and Villany" type extended adventure I would like to run. 


Who would I have to get the ok from to run it? Who would like to be a judge?


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## fireinthedust (Jan 29, 2010)

I would like to be a Judge for this, but I don't want to be the only one.  

Write up the adventure and stat out monsters and the treasures the party will be getting.


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## OnlytheStrong (Jan 29, 2010)

Judges would have to approve any adventure before a GM recruits for it.  Basically what they are looking at would be rewards/treasure and the general overall plot.  It's just to make sure that nothing too earth shattering or galaxy ending is involved lol.  That and I believe they make sure it's level appropriate (not sure on that one thought).


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## fireinthedust (Jan 29, 2010)

Speaking of which, we've only got one confirmed judge right now: me!  

There are some great and fabulous people who've been posting on this thread, and I'd like it if we had some company for this endeavor.  I've had an adventure proposal sent to me, and it's looking fun (with some changes and additions, but this was just a cut-down summary), but it'd be good to have help with this when the crowds show up (hint hint).

We should make up an email for the judges!  We can all have the access code ("password") and check it for stuff.  If a specific judge is tagged, write their name in the subject, or a specific adventure title, that sort of thing.

Could someone be in charge of the wiki?  I'm wiki-stupid, so I can make content but I want help with the formatting.  I may not be the only one here who's like that!


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## garyh (Jan 30, 2010)

OnlytheStrong said:


> Judges would have to approve any adventure before a GM recruits for it.  Basically what they are looking at would be rewards/treasure and the general overall plot.  It's just to make sure that nothing too earth shattering or galaxy ending is involved lol.  That and I believe they make sure it's level appropriate (not sure on that one thought).




"Blow up Alderaan?  No way, one of the PC's is from there!"  



fireinthedust said:


> We should make up an email for the judges!  We can all have the access code ("password") and check it for stuff.  If a specific judge is tagged, write their name in the subject, or a specific adventure title, that sort of thing.




We L4W Judges have a gmail account that's set up to forward all the character and adventure submissions to our personal e-mails.  Very handy, highly recommended.


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## knightemplar (Jan 30, 2010)

I could help with the Wiki.


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## fireinthedust (Jan 30, 2010)

knightemplar said:


> I could help with the Wiki.





Enough to, say, be a judge?  nudge nudge judge?


If that's the case, then, I and the others can start working on specific articles for locations and characters, and send them to you to post.

We should all judge the articles, btw, not only for quality/content, but also so we're all ont he same page!  

as an aside: just saw the Mandalorians episode of Clone Wars.  Nice.  I hope they go into more detail about Jango Fett, and the clones themselves in relation to those guys.

I'll start up the Gmail account if no one minds?   I'm thinking LivingStarWars@ gmail or hotmail.com?  Password TBA?  (I'll PM all judges with it, once we get more than myself on the "Council of Judges"... hey, if I'm the first judge, should I talk like Yoda?  hmmm... interesting but useless question this is, and down a tangeant it shall lead.)


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## knightemplar (Jan 31, 2010)

Base Frame work for the wiki is up. Menu Linking to each of the other main pages is on the top of each of these main pages. Now I just need to know what to put on them. 


Overview/Main Page

Player's Guide

GM's Guide

Setting

PC's

We will also probably want to start a Tavern Thread for characters to interact with other characters while waiting for a DM and an adventure. If we want to use the Hoan system as the jumping point, it should probably exist there. What should we call it?

Also, lets look at the Living Eberron page for some of the really basic rules and stuff like player and DM rewards. 

_____________________________________________________________________________

1) This is a rule on the Living Eberron character creation page. Players may not have more than one character to start with. Once they have reached level 2 with the first character, then they may create one more character to play with. There is a maximum limit of two characters, in which a new one can only be brought in the case of death or if the player decides to retire one of the previous characters. 

Also, every time a character levels, the character has to be approved again by a judge. I think this one will lead to judge burnout. I like the RPGA's honor system, and would put this in the hands of the GM for the final yes/no your character can play in the game. 

2) How do we handle death of a character? There is no raise dead spell in Star Wars. I would be pretty bummed out if I got a character like at 7th level and all of a sudden she dies in a game due to a bad roll. The RPGA has a rule that basically they come back alive again, but are excluded from the rest of the adventure and it is like they never went on the adventure. GM's might want to cast alternates or re-recruit in case of this happening. If the player's second character is of sufficent level to play in the game, can they switch in that character? This might not be bad either, so the GM does not have to look for another character and the game can go on. 

3) If we will not be using the destiny system presented in the main book, I would like to point out the background system that was presented in the Rebellion book. Basically depending on the background chosen by the player, the character gets a free language training, skill training, or a minor special ability that seems to be on par with a talent from the class trees.

4) I can be a judge, but let me ask this then. If I am a judge myself, does another judge have to approve my work? I would say yes, to make sure that I am not being too abusive to the system or the players. Sometimes it is best to just have someone else look at the work for their opinion.


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## fireinthedust (Jan 31, 2010)

knightemplar said:


> Base Frame work for the wiki is up.
> We will also probably want to start a Tavern Thread for characters to interact with other characters while waiting for a DM and an adventure. If we want to use the Hoan system as the jumping point, it should probably exist there. What should we call it?








> Also, lets look at the Living Eberron page for some of the really basic rules and stuff like player and DM rewards.
> 
> _____________________________________________________________________________
> 
> 1) This is a rule on the Living Eberron character creation page. Players may not have more than one character to start with.




Sounds good to me.





> Also, every time a character levels, the character has to be approved again by a judge. I think this one will lead to judge burnout. I like the RPGA's honor system, and would put this in the hands of the GM for the final yes/no your character can play in the game.




I like this, in theory.  I think GMs should go over the sheet at the end of the adventure, and then Judges can rubber stamp it once the major stuff is done.  Judges should be involved where possible.




> 2) How do we handle death of a character?




good question.  I know it'd suck to lose a 7th level character, if you had to start at 1st again.  The issue is that dinging that character alive again destroys immersion.  

How about this:  they make a character of the same level as the one that died, but with only starting 1st level gold.  If the adventure calls for a ship, it's a rental they can pay off with adventure gold (that is, if the other PCs have ships for that adventure).

The point is that you want a character of a level that allows them to re-join their higher-level friends (like for Turtledome!, I'd want to have a character I could use with the other players I've been hanging out with, rather than just starting at 1st with new people I might not click with as well).

If a PC dies, we need to respect that.  GMs have resources to allow "heroic recovery", like second wind and suchnot.  Heck, who says a friendly NPC can't find the dead guy and put them in a bacta tank?  However, the movies are chock full of character deaths (Obiwan, QuiGon, that ewok that time, and theoretically Lando in the Falcon would have died if that last shot escaping the explosion hadn't been so awesome; Han in Carbonite could be considered "death" in a sense).  That's not a bad thing.




> 3) If we will not be using the destiny system presented in the main book, I would like to point out the background system that was presented in the Rebellion book. Basically depending on the background chosen by the player, the character gets a free language training, skill training, or a minor special ability that seems to be on par with a talent from the class trees.




I just figured the Destiny system was a powerful tool for killing the BBEG fast.  I don't mind backgrounds, but we should hand pick them.  They're a way for us to personalize the setting, if we have a list from Haon.



> 4) I can be a judge, but let me ask this then. If I am a judge myself, does another judge have to approve my work? I would say yes, to make sure that I am not being too abusive to the system or the players. Sometimes it is best to just have someone else look at the work for their opinion.




of course!  Judge not lest ye be judged, right?  no, different context?  

Anyway, yeah.  I already have mine going, and I saw your stuff, but for the next adventure I'll totally be putting in a character for approval.  Don't know what it'll be yet, though.

and I can send off the adventure notes I have once I type them...


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## fireinthedust (Jan 31, 2010)

getting started has LEB in one of the lines, not LSW (heh)


I love the wiki!  I'll get on some content.


Speaking of which, I need another player for my game Welcome to Haon.  I had four, including a Wookie, but they haven't posted so far!

I also want to put down some ideas for what the System is like, planet-wise.  

1)  En: should be like the forums: lots of different groups, any player race available, big population, lots of ideas.  Like a space version of Sigil, it's got a little something of everything (except that one thing PCs need to hire a transport to go find...).

2)  Planets.  I have a couple I for sure would like to have in there, as they're scenery in my adventure.  One is an ice planet.


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## knightemplar (Jan 31, 2010)

Ships: I had this idea earlier based on the Living Eberron page. If we give the character 1 reward point for each month a character has been active in one of the games. 

How about we use Lorba to run a loanshark service to loan characters money to buy ships or other expensive equipment. Depending on how much the ship costs say a YT-1300 light freighter (new 100,000/used 25,000) versus a Acton IV bulk transport(new 1,000,000/ used 500,000). For every 100,000 financed through Lorba requires so much paid back after every adventure. 

The character must also provide 10% of the purchase price of the ship up front, so for a new YT-1300 that would be 10,000 credits, before the loan is approved. You can also only have one loan active at a time. The character must also keep a running balance on what he still owes Lorba on his character sheet, as well as when he paid him. 

If the character is active in a game that runs, and the ship that was bought, is the active one in the game.How about that we let character use reward points to pay off 5,000 credits per reward point. So after 20 reward points earned, the new YT-1300 would be totally paid off. The Acton would take significantly longer. Characters can also use credits given to them at the end of the game to also pay down the loan with Lorba. If more than one person has a ship, only one of the ships is allowed to be active in the game, for the whole game, barring death of character or loss of the player in the game.

As long as the character owes Lorba, he could be called on to do special favors for Lorba by the GM of the current game. If the character completes the favor, Lorba will knock a little more off of the money owed to him at the discretion of the GM and Judges. 

If the character has no interest in taking a loan from Lorba. The reward points can be cashed in for an experience point bonus. It would take a total of 10 reward points for a free level for the active character, with the stipulation being that they can not be active in any game when the reward points are cashed in. 

The player can choose whether he wants to pay Lorba with reward points or cash at the end of the adventure and save his reward points for cashing in for the experience bonus.

GM's according to Living Eberron gain 2 reward points per month of actively running games. These are awarded at the end of the adventure by the Judge overseeing the game. The GM can use these on any of his characters to pay down a loan or get the experience bonus as the GM sees fit.


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## knightemplar (Jan 31, 2010)

I think that characters should at least have two characters that are usable. What happens if a game opens that they would like to play, but the only character they have is currently in the middle of another adventure. 


On the point of death. How about the use of 1 reward point by the character also allows for a line when he shows up later like 'The reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated', or instead of kills the character, just knocks him unconcious and stabilizes the character so his friends can drag him out.

The Bacta Tank idea can also work as kind of a raise dead spell also. Looking at the main core book under death. The official stance is paraphrased death happens, bid the character a fond farewell. 

Also if a character dies, how about allowing the player to bring back a new character at one level lower with the appropriate money for that level.


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## fireinthedust (Feb 1, 2010)

Ship Loans:  not all PCs will have ships.  In fact, if they all have ships, they won't all be on the same ship.  As a result, you'd have items the players are "paying off" sitting in some spaceport gathering mynoks [sblock=that last line]because if you're talking star wars, talk "STAR" "WARS"[/SBLOCK]
    I like Lorba a lot, btw, even if you haven't met her yet.  

XP will be earned in the course of adventuring, so that's out.  Ditto treasure.  for Players, that is.  GMs are the ones who need the reward.  Is that what you meant?

I think GM rewards sound great.  Get them XP or Credits towards items they want, sure.  I don't know that it matters when a character is ready to go up a level, so long as the GM is alright with them doing so and they're approved by a Judge.  If I'm a GM and playing my PC in a different game, and my game ends and i get GM rewards, I've been waiting a long time to use them and working throughout that period.  The GM I'm playing under likely wouldn't mind it if they had the freedom to do the same, and understood that this was how it worked.
    that said, rewards like credits for Nobles and new equipment should wait for a rest between encounters, or even an extended rest; same for more HP, so long as the character isn't in combat right that second.


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## Insight (Feb 2, 2010)

I wonder how WOTC's announcement that they are dropping the Star Wars license will affect people's interest in a Living version of Saga.


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## Insight (Feb 2, 2010)

fireinthedust said:


> 2)  Planets.  I have a couple I for sure would like to have in there, as they're scenery in my adventure.  One is an ice planet.




If you look back a few pages, I believe I threw out some ideas for extra planets and I believe one was an ice planet.


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## fireinthedust (Feb 7, 2010)

Insight said:


> If you look back a few pages, I believe I threw out some ideas for extra planets and I believe one was an ice planet.



I looked and can't find it.  I did find the stuff posted on the Impereal Remnant/alliance/praxeum stuff, though, which was cool.

Who's up for judging?  I've got the email set up:  livingstarwarsEN@gmail.com
If you're in, say so and I'll give you the password.


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## fireinthedust (Feb 7, 2010)

Here's a first draft on En:       


> En:  Refugees from Alderan fled the Empire’s destruction of their planet to land, virtually penniless, on the surface of En.  The planet was near enough that such a large host of refugees could flee to it, and had a suitable atmosphere and good enough land that settlement was realistic; settlements could be made, though wilderness creatures existed that made it necessary to fortify settlements securely rather than expanding freely across the planet.  The Rebellion sent what supplies they could, as did off-world corporations with ties to the people of Alderaan, including scions of House Organa with access to resources.  Their success was great enough that refugees from other Empire-devastated planets found their own way there.  A bustling spaceport sprang up, which soon became a local hub due to the Haon system’s proximity to the Hydian Way hyperspace run.  House Organa and the Alliance both set up a presence on the world, but by the time this was solidified, other notable interests had also infiltrated the society and the planet.  This includes quite a few Hutts (squabbling for status in the vacuum left by Jabba the Hutt), several groups of bounty hunters in the Bounty Hunters’ guild, smugglers’ operations, droid- and ship-building guilds, as well as corporations and other business interests.  It is enough that EN has been labelled a small Coruscant for its ability to draw in groups from so many diverse backgrounds.
> Wildlife: numerous creatures, including “tralls”, vicious, unintelligent humanoids that eat the flesh of those willing to leave the confines of the walled communities.  Also of note are large, burrowing predators and flesh-eating plants.





It's not official, and I was just thinking of making it a commentary on forums in general (ie: Tralls = trolls), though I don't know if we want to bother with that.
   We could make the world's environment dependent on the state of Living SW: if we have lots of posting going on, the world is lush.  If posting dies down, the planet dies, or wilts, and becomes a desert world.


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