# D&D Armageddon - Blood Wars End, Sigil Falls to Seige



## Paka (Jan 31, 2004)

The Blood Wars end as Demons and Devils are shown that if they had focused their energies towards taking over the Planes, rather than fighting each other, the worlds would be theirs by now. Some digging and Divining uncovers the Blood Wars as a conspiracy wrought by a cabal of Good Gods just after the beginning of time. 

No one is sure who the first Wizard was who summoned a Demon or Devil after the Blood Treaty. He only wanted an Imp familiar but instead they got the united hordes of the Abyss and Hell. Ambitious Paladins who always wanted to cleanse the lower planes need wait no longer; the lower planes have come to them. 

The last remnants of the Blue Sun Empire, the Illithid armies that created the Githyanki and Githzarai begins traversing the planes and the ether.  They link minds and trying to create an alliance that can withstand the combines might of the layers of the Abyss and the many Hells.

Vecna claws out his one eye and has his most trusted Death Knight lops off his other hand, wandering the planes as a blind prophet.

Sigil is taken after a month long siege, the Lady of Pain retreats to her Maze. When her downtrodden citizens of Sigil, under the whip of Demons and Devils, pray to her, she is kicked out of Sigil, as the law states for any God.  Once the Demons and Devils hold the city they begin using its gates as staging grounds to destroy everything.

Plane after plane is falling to Abyssal and Hellish forces. Through the Mazes and Labyrinths of the World wanders the Lady of Pain with her ragtag retinue, looking for heroes bold enough to take her city back and save the cosmos.


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## Piratecat (Jan 31, 2004)

That's horrific. Tell me you've done it.


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## Paka (Jan 31, 2004)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> That's horrific. Tell me you've done it.




Horrific?  Thanks!

Sorry.  Not yet.


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## Mordane76 (Jan 31, 2004)

Where do I sign up?!


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## Bendris Noulg (Jan 31, 2004)

Yikes...

Not really sure if I'd enjoy such a game; not quite my tastes...  But I'd certainly be glued to the Story Hour.


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## HellHound (Jan 31, 2004)

Sweet.

Super Sweet.

This would be a FANTASTIC touch in a campaign where the players have been actively working AGAINST the mind flayers for the past while...


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## Crothian (Jan 31, 2004)

Now that's an epic campaign.....


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## Aaron L (Jan 31, 2004)

Nice


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## Allanon (Jan 31, 2004)

WOW!!! 

 Please tell me that you're seriously contemplating on making that a story hour!?

 mmm... but that idea is definitively JOINK!'ed. Now I'll just have to wait until my PC's get to level 20 to use it... sigh


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## Piratecat (Jan 31, 2004)

If I was going to use this campaign idea, I'd start the group on a nice, calm prime material world. Then I'd give them access to travel magic, like a cubic gate keyed to heaven - and then let them discover the hard way that their multverse is probably doomed, and that their prime is one of the relatively few that haven't yet been conquered.


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## Lu Wei Fong (Jan 31, 2004)

As a fan of the Armaggedonish, "End of all things" type campaigns, I have to tell you, I love this very much  I both play and DM, and I of course plan to turn my homebrew into a campaign like this, but I sure wish I could find someone to DM this kind of thing for me.   
Anywho, you should definately use that


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## Dirigible (Jan 31, 2004)

> The Blood Wars end ...focused their energies...




Demons and Devils go together like rapid cats  and chartered accountants. It'd take a fudge of a lot to make two factions that have been fighting since Time Itself Began _(tm)_ work together.



> ...the Blood Wars as a conspiracy wrought by a cabal of Good Gods just after the beginning of time.




Oh. That could do it .

Combine an ultracharismatic baatezu/tanar'rii crossbreed to unite the fiends _versus_ an exalted paladin so holy he craps divine wafers and urinates holy water who leads a campaign against the lower planes...

Neato, Paka. The very definition of Epic.


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## Jolly Giant (Feb 1, 2004)

Paka, have you been snooping in my campaign files?!?    This is as close to my current campaign as you could possibly get! With one exception: IMC the githyanki and the githzerai, inspired by the demons and devils uniting against the forces of good, set their own differences aside and launch a joint war against the illithids.


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## Mathew_Freeman (Feb 1, 2004)

Wow. Now that's a brilliant set of ideas!

One question - do you have the Epic Level Handbook, and where do the LeShay fit in?


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## DanMcS (Feb 1, 2004)

Tallarn said:
			
		

> One question - do you have the Epic Level Handbook, and where do the LeShay fit in?




That's a very random question.  

You could make them be the agents the good gods used to start the blood war.  The ELH says some terrible tragedy befell them in the past, yet they are reluctant or unable to undo it.  Their actions resulted in the decimation and downfall of their race from power, probably they were nearly wiped out by the demons, devils, or both.  So to go back and undo it, they would also have to undo the root cause of the blood war, which would mean the fiends have been united all along and conquored the multiverse millenia ago.


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## Paka (Feb 1, 2004)

*Related Prestige Classes:*

*Blinde Prophet of Vecna * - When Vecna took his own eye and hand he became a maimed martyr and his followers turned from a path of lichedom and power, turning instead to a terrible kind of wisdom.  They travel the planes, spouting their awful message.

*Paladin Errant * - When the Blood Pact was consecrated all of the fountains in all of the worlds ran red with blood, it rained the tears of angel and thundered with the roar of archangels.  The orders of Paladins were set free, no longer bound by their knighthoods and churches, set out to do their good in the cosmos, to stem the tide of evil.

*Painwarden * - The Lady never travels without a retinue.  Her Painwardens are often former citizens of Sigil who gather warriors and adventurers to her, so that she might float down the allies of her city once again.

*Blood Ambassador * - The Devils and Demons send an ambassador to the kingdoms they are about invade and offer them a place in their councils of they sign their contract.  These ambassadors are often of Tiefling blood, striding into desperate king's and queen's chambers with a smile and soothing words.


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## Ferox4 (Feb 1, 2004)

Man, what a coup! When do the other gods begin to fall?


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## blackshirt5 (Feb 1, 2004)

Yoinked.  This is another that I have to run(I know just how I'll start it too    )


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## Paka (Feb 1, 2004)

blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> Yoinked.  This is another that I have to run(I know just how I'll start it too    )




If you do, please drop me an e-mail and let me know how it goes.  

THanks

judd_harris  at  yahoo dot com


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## Paka (Feb 1, 2004)

blackshirt5 said:
			
		

> Yoinked.  This is another that I have to run(I know just how I'll start it too    )




Oh yeah, and how would you start it?


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## blackshirt5 (Feb 1, 2004)

Paka said:
			
		

> Oh yeah, and how would you start it?



 Right now, I'm pondering the possible starts being a Mercenary campaign(a la Black Company) with them being contracted, only to be overrun by the Infernal Hordes, with the PCs being the last few mortal survivors of the Company.


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## blackshirt5 (Feb 1, 2004)

Then, y'know, they get recruited by Heaven to stem the tide, fighting across the planes of existence, going up to Epic Levels, of course(with a modified Epic system).


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## Valiantheart (Feb 1, 2004)

Nice.

I like world hopping campaigns.  You could visit all the familiar locals like FR, DL, GH and still use a home brew.  Plus you could go to the Midnight setting and really give those people something to cry about.


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## Paka (Feb 1, 2004)

*One More Prestige Class:*

*Blue Sun Soldier:  * The Illithid's Blue Sun Empire recruits from anyone willing to serve.  Those who serve in their armed forced are grafted with powerful tentacles and sometimes psionic powers form the Illithid's own pool minds.


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## blackshirt5 (Feb 1, 2004)

This is third on the queue list after LXG:1939 and Dawnforge.


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## blackshirt5 (Feb 1, 2004)

Valiantheart said:
			
		

> Nice.
> 
> I like world hopping campaigns.  You could visit all the familiar locals like FR, DL, GH and still use a home brew.  Plus you could go to the Midnight setting and really give those people something to cry about.



 That's pretty much the idea; fight Demons in Silverymoon, beat back their Daemonic mercenaries at the Gates of Hell, and battle Orcus AND Asmodeus for the fate of Heaven itself, right at the Heavenly Gate!


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## Felon (Feb 1, 2004)

Paka said:
			
		

> Vecna claws out his one eye and has his most trusted Death Knight lops off his other hand



I'll bite. Why?



			
				Paka said:
			
		

> When her downtrodden citizens of Sigil, under the whip of Demons and Devils, pray to her, she is kicked out of Sigil, as the law states for any God.



Is the Lady of Pain a former goddess or something? Does praying to someone (even against their will) make someone into a God (even against their will)?


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## Paka (Feb 1, 2004)

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1345965#post1345965

Did someone say Story Hour?


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## Nightfall (Feb 1, 2004)

Not bad.  The dark Tirtumvate in CC 3 would be a nice addition to this army I'm sure. But that's just me.


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## Paka (Feb 1, 2004)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Not bad.  The dark Tirtumvate in CC 3 would be a nice addition to this army I'm sure. But that's just me.




Nightfall?  Suggest a Scarred Lands element...quite frankly, I am shocked.


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## Nightfall (Feb 1, 2004)

Yeah but dude! Armies of Anger Demons with Fear Devils marching through the planes as Pride Daemons corrupt rulers! They just rock in a campaign like that!


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## Derulbaskul (Feb 1, 2004)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Yeah but dude! Armies of Anger Demons with Fear Devils marching through the planes as Pride Daemons corrupt rulers! They just rock in a campaign like that!




Nightfall,

That's some good pimping you've done because now I've got to ask: what book are those fiends out of? Is it CCIII? If so, is CCIII better than I and II?

BTW, I've just noticed your post count. Wow. I've been around since the very first EN board (and I mean the first) way back before 3rd edition and I think I've posted about 5% of that total.


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## Paka (Feb 1, 2004)

Paka said:
			
		

> Vecna claws out his one eye and has his most trusted Death Knight lops off his other hand






			
				Felon said:
			
		

> I'll bite. Why?




Why?

*Fanboy answer:  * Because it is vicious and cool and scary.

*Character study:  * Because Vecna understood the enormity of what an alliance between the Devils and the Demons would meant to the Planes.  Because he knew in a cosmos filled with many evils, his own bid for world domination was just about to become second-rate.

*Flip the Scrip':  * Because it flips what we know and think about Vecna all around.  

*Aesthetic:  * Because it is a nice image.

*Neat-o:  * Because it means a blinde, handless Liche-God is wandering the planes, dispensig evil wisdom like some Titus Andronicus Prophet.  Because it means all of his followers, the true followers, are blinde, handless wanna-be Liche-Gods.


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## Felon (Feb 1, 2004)

Good answers.


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## Stone Angel (Feb 1, 2004)

Holy.... Well.....I am actually speechless. This sounds so....awesome. Not sure if I would have the patience to run this type of meat grinder campaign. Perhaps the pc's best hope is to try to turn evil against itself once again.

Would that not freak your players out to just be walking along just outside of a city and then a portal opens up and out runs Elminster, Drizzt, Mordenkainen, Strahd, Lord Soth, Darth Maul, Kas, Gandalf....All screaming and running for their lives. "They're coming....They are coming!!"

Checking out stroy hour now.

The Seraph of Earth and Stone.


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## Paka (Feb 1, 2004)

Stone Angel said:
			
		

> Holy.... Well.....I am actually speechless.
> 
> Checking out stroy hour now.




Let me know whatcha think.  Glad the idea grabs ya.


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## Junkheap (Feb 1, 2004)

Jezzus, i would pay soo much money for an adventure like this it wouldnt even be funny.  Damn, i would even pay if you just type it out and send it out!.   Yes i am desperate for epic, far reaching, world shattering, evil, political, wonderous adventures like this.  Havent felt this way about any story like this since dead gods.  Man, i would so pay for this.....


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## Paka (Feb 1, 2004)

Junkheap said:
			
		

> Jezzus, i would pay soo much money for an adventure like this it wouldnt even be funny.  Damn, i would even pay if you just type it out and send it out!.   Yes i am desperate for epic, far reaching, world shattering, evil, political, wonderous adventures like this.  Havent felt this way about any story like this since dead gods.  Man, i would so pay for this.....




There's a link to the Story Hour earlier in this thread.  Mosy on over and check it out.  If it makes you happy, you can send me money after reading it.

I accept cash, checks, money orders and Visa!


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## Allanon (Feb 1, 2004)

Paka said:
			
		

> There's a link to the Story Hour earlier in this thread.  Mosy on over and check it out.  If it makes you happy, you can send me money after reading it.
> 
> I accept cash, checks, money orders and Visa!



 Well not to be nitpicky but the link in your .sig goes to your other storyhour "The City, the War and the Arcana".


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## Paka (Feb 1, 2004)

Allanon said:
			
		

> Well not to be nitpicky but the link in your .sig goes to your other storyhour "The City, the War and the Arcana".




Thanks, fixed that.

Not nitpicky at all.  I appreciate the hand.

Thanks again, Allanon.


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## Nightfall (Feb 1, 2004)

Derulbaskul said:
			
		

> Nightfall,
> 
> That's some good pimping you've done because now I've got to ask: what book are those fiends out of? Is it CCIII? If so, is CCIII better than I and II?



CIII yes. I think CCIII is better than II which was a good book. C I has great concepts but poor excution so a lot of the current monster books are better than that. CC Revised however is what CC I SHOULD have been. Part of the reason for the pimpage for CCIII, I made a monster in that one. Infernal Sentinel Devil is my little bad boy. Trust me, get three of those going against a 15th level party, along with their Charduni-slain, you'll be rocking. 




			
				Derulbaskul said:
			
		

> BTW, I've just noticed your post count. Wow. I've been around since the very first EN board (and I mean the first) way back before 3rd edition and I think I've posted about 5% of that total.



I just don't have many hobbies is all.  

Back on Topic, such a lovely story hour. Please, more killing!


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## Shemeska (Feb 2, 2004)

And so when do we find out that the Yugoloths were behind it from the very beginning, considering they made both the Tanar'ri and Baatezu. *sneer*

And how did anything lay seige to Sigil in the first place, I mean The Lady can simply seal access to the gates to anything, including deities.

*raises an eyebrow and considers some things a bit too drastic to do. Drastic being defined as anything likely to draw The Lady's flaying shadow or drop a berk in their own little maze for all eternity*


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## Paka (Feb 2, 2004)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> And so when do we find out that the Yugoloths were behind it from the very beginning, considering they made both the Tanar'ri and Baatezu. *sneer*




Did they really?  Neat.

Interesting.  Where is that info from?  I'm not doubting you I'm just curious where it was, because I hadn't read it and would like to read up on my D&D planar cosmology.



			
				Shemeska said:
			
		

> And how did anything lay seige to Sigil in the first place, I mean The Lady can simply seal access to the gates to anything, including deities.
> 
> *raises an eyebrow and considers some things a bit too drastic to do. Drastic being defined as anything likely to draw The Lady's flaying shadow or drop a berk in their own little maze for all eternity*




Aye, its my sandbox and I'll futz with the sandcastles if I wanna.  

How did it happen?  Epic level spells, Demonic and Devilish hoo-doo, etc., etc.  In fantasy if we want it to happen badly enough it probably will.

I like the idea of the Lady as a refugee.  It casts her in a whole new light and most of all, its FUN.   I love Sigil and just enjoying playing with a pretty, clever, dusty old toy.


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## dreaded_beast (Feb 2, 2004)

This is such a COOL idea!

If you ever make this into a campaign web-site, net-book, thing-a-ma-bob, where people can inject ideas and what not, let me know.

I would love to be a part of the creation of this world/campaign!

Good job!

BTW, Love the PrCs!


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## Allanon (Feb 2, 2004)

--IGNORE--


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## pogre (Feb 2, 2004)

Paka,

Inspirational stuff and as many have already commented - truly epic.

Thanks!


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## Nightfall (Feb 2, 2004)

Shem,

The Loths probably finally decided they got tired of losing souls to the good guys so they banded together to get it done.


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## Goobermunch (Feb 2, 2004)

A question and a theory:

1) What happened to the Baatorians, the ancient beings of pure evil who even the Baatezu fear?

2) Here's how to take out the Lady:  Let the Baatezu and Tana'ri start worshiping her.  They can bring her into the fold with enough focused worship.

--G


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## Joker[ZW] (Feb 2, 2004)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Shem,
> 
> The Loths probably finally decided they got tired of losing souls to the good guys so they banded together to get it done.




"Nah, we 'Loth don't need souls, so why should we do this? We are just trying to get along in this brutal world. 
See, people keep telling, that we organized the meeting between the Baatezu and the Tanar'Ri, but thats a lie. The Baatezu and the Tanar'Ri attack us, it just does'nt show as much as with other races as we know how to evade them.
And that silly story about the Lady of Pain not being the _real_ Lady of Pain, but a creation of us and that the real Lady has disappeared, someone really seems to hate us if he invents such storys!"
"And what about your unusal activity against Athar, LeShay and other such groups"
"I hope you don't believe that storys, why should we kill those groups? We just try to survive! Oh, wait a moment.
Gosh, sorry, I forgot I have another appointment today! I'am really sorry, but, well, we'll have to finish this Interview another time. Goodbye my friend."


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 2, 2004)

Somehow I just can't imagine Azmodeus and Demogorgon being brothers in arms.  I also can't seen the Archdemons agreeing on anything.  They are CHAOTIC with a GREAT BIG "C"!!!!  The fiends represent their alignments not because they choose to be evil, chaotic or lawful.  It is who they are.  It is their very essence.  I don't know, perhaps a better idea would be for Azmodeus to finally achieve godhood (he's been trying for quite some time).  Considering how powerful he is without being a god it would be reasonable to think that he'd be able to destroy the Archdemons (they've never cooperated before and they certainly woulnd't now) at that point and impose his iron fisted rule on the Abyss as none would be powerful enough to oppose him.  Demons, being self serving types would join the armies of the nine hells as they are used to being ruled by personal power rather than station and no other fiend would be as powerful as Azmodeus.  What if at that time Azmodeus then attempted to make the Prime his new home and unleashed the combined armies and the lesser Archdevils on the Prime, assigning each Archdevil to a region.  You could run an entire epic campaign fighting each of the Archdevils until at last you face Azmodeus.

Hmmmm.... I may have to run this thing myself.


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## Paka (Feb 2, 2004)

I'm going to try to jot down the Prestige Classes later this week after some much needed chores get done.

Could someone give me a rundown about the Shugoloths and let me know which books they're in?

And if anyone would send me a free copy of the Book of Vile Darkness, that'd be great!   Infernal and Abyssal politicking is about to get thick and nasty.


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## Joker[ZW] (Feb 2, 2004)

"Planes of Conflict" and "Fiends: Faces of Evil" should be a good beginning.

To quote the summary in Faces of Evil about the Yugoloth:

_Fear the baatezu: They are cold and cunning disciplinarians.
Fear the tanar'ri: They are brutal, bloodthirsty killers. But most of all, fear the yugoloths: They are masks of mystery, and no matter how many layers of skin you peel away, you will never know how many still lie between you and the true face._

I hope I the quote is Ok here 


And yes, I like 'Loth


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## Paka (Feb 2, 2004)

Joker[ZW] said:
			
		

> "Planes of Conflict" and "Fiends: Faces of Evil" should be a good beginning.




Thanks for the input.

Planes of Conflict, is that an old Planescape book?

Any idea who published Fiends: Faces of Evil?

Thanks again.


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## Shemeska (Feb 4, 2004)

Yes, 'Planes of Conflict' and 'Faces of Evil:The Fiends' were both 2e Planescape books from TSR.

'Faces of Evil: The Fiends' is quite honestly one of the single best RPG books I've ever read, I give it that much of a bump. )


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## Xavim (Feb 5, 2004)

Consider this idea yoinked.  And once I finish my midterms, expect some nice illustrations from yours truely.  I've got an image in my head of a battered and beaten lady of pain that is so sacriligious it will just blow your mind if I can manage to pull it off properly.

The coolest things about this would be just the scope of the alliance.  Think of it.  Illithid and Gith, Elf and Drow, Orc and anyone, Chromatic and mettalic, Paladin's fighting along side undead horrors, the gods of darkness united with the gods of light.  All to defeat the indominable forces of the Fiends.  God damn I'm doing some art for this.  Congratulations.  You've just created a new project for me.  And though I know we've all thought of something similar at one point or another I just really like the order you have everything in.

I'm curious as to where the Yuguoloths fall into the scheme of things.  Would they be slaughtered by their bretheren for their efforts of constantly playing one off the other?  Or would they side with the demons and Devils, knowing that once the multiverse is won they will revert to their old ways allowing for the 'loths to continue pretty well as per normal?  Or maybe both in an attempt to manipulate both sides into a state of utter annilalation leaving them the soul survivors and inheritors of the multiverse.  Hot damn this would make an AWESOME trilogy.  Or sextet, or campaign SETTING.  D&D ARRMAGEDDON.  It's got potential.


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## Ashwyn (Feb 5, 2004)

Wow. The idea of the Blood War ending and the Demons and Devils working together to take over the Planes is an idea I had, so I think it's very cool. It was actually part of my campaign setting that I sent to Wizards during the setting search. I look forward to seeing how it turns out.


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## Nightfall (Feb 5, 2004)

Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> Somehow I just can't imagine Azmodeus and Demogorgon being brothers in arms.



Well maybe they just decided the old adage, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. And let's face it, they SO dislike those pansy celestials coming around to kick down their toys.


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## Ferox4 (Feb 5, 2004)

I was explaining this plot to my group this past Sunday and one of them (the other DM) thought it was a finished module and was all bummed out that I had found it first. After letting him squirm a bit I told him the down & dirty of it.  
They all thought this storyline was very intriguing. 

Not that you need any further encouragement, but I think you've stumbled on something here that is loaded with truly epic potential.

I loved PC's response when you first posted this plot:



> That's horrific!  Tell me you've done it.




Good Luck
F4


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## Paka (Feb 5, 2004)

Xavim said:
			
		

> The coolest things about this would be just the scope of the alliance.  Think of it.  Illithid and Gith, Elf and Drow, Orc and anyone, Chromatic and mettalic, Paladin's fighting along side undead horrors, the gods of darkness united with the gods of light.  All to defeat the indominable forces of the Fiends.  God damn I'm doing some art for this.  Congratulations.  You've just created a new project for me.  And though I know we've all thought of something similar at one point or another I just really like the order you have everything in.




I'm not sure all of those folk would team together right away.  The Drow might very well fall in with the fiendish forces due to their ties with Lloth, as might the chromatics with their ties to Tiamat.  

Gith and Illithid might call a momentary armistice but maybe not.  Maybe one of the PC's jobs will be to broker a piece between these two ancient enemies.  A diplomatic mission to the Liche Queen to beg her to call of her hoardes would be nifty.  But what about the Liche Queen's tie to Red Dragons?  Would they ask her to go with Tiamat and the Fiendish forces?  Interesting and complicated planar political stuff.  Neat.

I'd love to see any art you do.  Awesome!  Thanks.



			
				Xavim said:
			
		

> I'm curious as to where the Yuguoloths fall into the scheme of things.  Would they be slaughtered by their bretheren for their efforts of constantly playing one off the other?




In my vision of this mess, the Yuguoloths are still with the Fiends.  As matter of fact, I think the final pact of peace was signed in Gehena, within the Crawling City.  I'll write more about that later.

Thanks for the support, folks.  Glad the idea grabbed ya.


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## blackshirt5 (Feb 5, 2004)

Paka said:
			
		

> I'm not sure all of those folk would team together right away.  The Drow might very well fall in with the fiendish forces due to their ties with Lloth, as might the chromatics with their ties to Tiamat.
> 
> Gith and Illithid might call a momentary armistice but maybe not.  Maybe one of the PC's jobs will be to broker a piece between these two ancient enemies.  A diplomatic mission to the Liche Queen to beg her to call of her hoardes would be nifty.  But what about the Liche Queen's tie to Red Dragons?  Would they ask her to go with Tiamat and the Fiendish forces?  Interesting and complicated planar political stuff.  Neat.
> 
> ...



 This idea not only grabbed me, it grabbed and twisted.

This IS the next campaign I'm running, although with a few changes(among them that it's starting at level 1 and starts as a normal Mercenary Company campaign, as well as others).


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## RobNJ (Feb 5, 2004)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Well maybe they just decided the old adage, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.



I heard this old adage put in a very cool new light on Traffic:  The Series (on USA, not the original original British one):

Me against my brother.
My brother and I against my cousin.
My cousin and I against the world.


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## Nightfall (Feb 6, 2004)

That works too.


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## Andrew D. Gable (Feb 7, 2004)

Brought up in my mind by the mentions of Strahd and Soth - where's Ravenloft fit in all this?  And how will Azalin take advantage of this situation?


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## Nightfall (Feb 7, 2004)

Azlin just wants out. I'm sure Ravenloft won't be touched since Fiends get trapped in there. And who really wants to be around vampiric kender?


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## megamania (Feb 7, 2004)

I and another DM ran a joint-campaign on this line.  The supreme ultimate this is the beginning of everything god of evil awoke after the god of good slammed him unconscience and in a coma state in a plane outside of time and space.  He awoke and, as a god to anything evil (rank 40+) he had everything from Orcs to Pit Fiends line up and start a war.

My friend would run the demon war sections and I ran the side adventures to give him a break.  At that time, I avoided ANYTHING with the word demon or devil in it since there were so many negative feelings about it by the general community.

Essencially, we were the lowest level of pawns for the ultimate battle between good and evil.  Good story...too bad he moved away and it fell apart.

In my STRIKEFORCE: MORITURI Storyhour I was going to visit a plane where this happened and the war is over, evil won, but the blood wars restarted allowing the forces of neutrality to try to aid good to balance everything again.


PLEASE-  Someone do this as a Storyhour.  I'm a sucker for total annihilation of entire worlds and universes.


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 9, 2004)

Paka said:
			
		

> I'm not sure all of those folk would team together right away.  The Drow might very well fall in with the fiendish forces due to their ties with Lloth, as might the chromatics with their ties to Tiamat.
> 
> Gith and Illithid might call a momentary armistice but maybe not.  Maybe one of the PC's jobs will be to broker a piece between these two ancient enemies.  A diplomatic mission to the Liche Queen to beg her to call of her hoardes would be nifty.  But what about the Liche Queen's tie to Red Dragons?  Would they ask her to go with Tiamat and the Fiendish forces?  Interesting and complicated planar political stuff.  Neat.
> [\QUOTE]
> ...


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 9, 2004)

Andrew D. Gable said:
			
		

> Brought up in my mind by the mentions of Strahd and Soth - where's Ravenloft fit in all this?  And how will Azalin take advantage of this situation?




Soth got out.  Read the book "Specter of the Black Rose" (Or was it white?  Been a while since I read it).  Soth became so despondent that the powers of Ravenloft felt that he was ignoring his curse.  He just ceased caring about anything.  They ejected him because living in Krynn and seeing what came about from his weakness was a greater curse than anything the powers could come up with.


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 9, 2004)

Andrew D. Gable said:
			
		

> Brought up in my mind by the mentions of Strahd and Soth - where's Ravenloft fit in all this?  And how will Azalin take advantage of this situation?




Is Azalin even around?  I thought he died and Death took his place.  This is all based on 2E Ravenloft so I'm not current on 3E events in that setting.


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## Valiantheart (Feb 9, 2004)

This campaign does indeed sound good.  

I like what the other guy suggested about having Asmodeus finally triumph uniting all the demons, devils and daemons under his banner.  Asmodeus was supposed to be one of the prime evils if not THE prime evil in the cosmos before his fall.


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 9, 2004)

Valiantheart said:
			
		

> This campaign does indeed sound good.
> 
> I like what the other guy suggested about having Asmodeus finally triumph uniting all the demons, devils and daemons under his banner.  Asmodeus was supposed to be one of the prime evils if not THE prime evil in the cosmos before his fall.




Thank you!  I'll take that as a compliment.


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 9, 2004)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> And so when do we find out that the Yugoloths were behind it from the very beginning, considering they made both the Tanar'ri and Baatezu. *sneer*




I'm curious, where did you read this nonsense?  There are no ArchYugoloths.  To my knowledge they didn't include Anthraxus in the BOVD (yes, I'm going back to 1E AD&D) and he is the only Yugoloth that MIGHT be equal in power to the Archdevils and the Demon Princes.

IMC the fiends predate the gods much like the Titans did in the Scarred Lands.  That means that The Creator put the Celestials and Fiends into existence for a purpose.  As far as Celestials and Fiends go I don't think any celestial or fiend created any other creature.  They could take what was already there and modify it but creating a whole new being is within the power of The Creator alone.  Even the gods can't accomplish that.


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## Toras (Feb 9, 2004)

Love the idea of Armaggedon, simply because it does open so many possibilities, and can make for some interesting massive battles.  The scenery in a full, all out war across the multiverse seems quiet intreging.

The Sigil element is something I personally don't agree with.  I don't claim to be an expert on such things, but as I understand it, the Laws in Sigil function as an extension of the Lady's will, rather than any inherent law. If she is who watches the Gates and bars Gods from entry than making her a God using worship would be pointless.  She has been worshiped before, and it did little more than provoke her ire.  Of course, given the differing theories on what the Lady is, and why Sigil is her domain, your idea has various complications.  
Theories
1. Sigil is referred to as the Cage by most.  What if the Cage is not keeping her out, but rather what is keeping her in?  That Gods and Archdevils cannot enter Sigil not because she keeps them out but because they must keep her in.
Forcing her out of Sigil would be something akin to letting free a trapped Tiger or an insane killer.
2. She is God-like, much as the Archdevils, and other such creatures, and thusly holds Sigil as her domain.  As anyone can tell you, it is difficult, if not impossible to assault a God in her domain.
3. She is Something Else.  Perhaps she has gone beyond God hood to something else and condemns worship because she feels it demeans her.  
4. She is the Prime (First of) the Romani,existing as a proto-god and ruler of the city.  Perhaps she is why their magic works upon the spire. And should she be ejected from the City by "the Rules", than she would return to her people and her power base.  And they fight dirty.

As shemeska has mentioned before me, I must note that she can eject people from Sigil, mazing or flaying them, and can close her portals beyond all reproach.  Also note that only demons & devils below Pit Fiend and Balor level can even enter the city of doors, just as Archdevils and Lords of the Nine are barred.   So the war would lose its most powerful fighters, adding to this is the fact that Sigil portals lead just about everywhere.  It is almost impossible to even think about holding a place where you can be attacked at all sides. A concerted attack by a force even a portion of their size able to attack from any angle at any time would demoralize and destroy them.  Just ask the VietCong.  
Since they would be unable to close those portals (Sigils portals cannot be sealed), they would be stuck in a place with large army deprived of its generals and vunerable to attack from all sides.  It would get ugly quickly.


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## Toras (Feb 9, 2004)

Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> I'm curious, where did you read this nonsense?  There are no ArchYugoloths.  To my knowledge they didn't include Anthraxus in the BOVD (yes, I'm going back to 1E AD&D) and he is the only Yugoloth that MIGHT be equal in power to the Archdevils and the Demon Princes.
> 
> IMC the fiends predate the gods much like the Titans did in the Scarred Lands.  That means that The Creator put the Celestials and Fiends into existence for a purpose.  As far as Celestials and Fiends go I don't think any celestial or fiend created any other creature.  They could take what was already there and modify it but creating a whole new being is within the power of The Creator alone.  Even the gods can't accomplish that.




The Baernoloths, though not included in the BOVD, are equivalent. One of their number fell and became God of the Gerelths.  They are radically powerful and each possess interesting abilities.  They are detailed in several Planescape suppliments, and likely will be detailed in the conversion effort.


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## FunkBGR (Feb 9, 2004)

This thread is so awesome - I just had to post. 

Normally, I don't run anything BUT Ravenloft, but this might be the first time I run a High Magic/Fantasy game - the problem with the following is that you might have ot define what the Dark Powers of Ravenloft are, but hey - maybe that's good for you.

So, how does Ravenloft fit? Try this - the good and evil gods are collaborating to fight the fiends - in 2nd Edition, Vecna was trapped in Ravenloft (I know he broke free in a module, but ignore that) - what if the PC's actually were sent on a mission to 1st GAIN ENTRANCE to Ravenloft (heheh, PC's WANT to go there, funny), and then figure out a way to BREAK HIM OUT - if they're good, they have to figure out some way to do it w/o disrupting the rest of them. Perhaps Vecna, as the god of secrets, knows where the Baatorian's or some ancient weapon or something.

That'd be cool


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## Ferret (Feb 9, 2004)

Every once in a while someone creates an amazing idea for a setting and nothing happens. Last time it was a Reign Of Fire like idea. Glad to see this is being taken somewhere.


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 9, 2004)

Toras said:
			
		

> As shemeska has mentioned before me, I must note that she can eject people from Sigil, mazing or flaying them, and can close her portals beyond all reproach.  Also note that only demons & devils below Pit Fiend and Balor level can even enter the city of doors, just as Archdevils and Lords of the Nine are barred.   So the war would lose its most powerful fighters, adding to this is the fact that Sigil portals lead just about everywhere.  It is almost impossible to even think about holding a place where you can be attacked at all sides. A concerted attack by a force even a portion of their size able to attack from any angle at any time would demoralize and destroy them.




How about this as an option.  What if Sigil became the safe haven of the resistance?


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 9, 2004)

Toras said:
			
		

> The Baernoloths, though not included in the BOVD, are equivalent. One of their number fell and became God of the Gerelths.  They are radically powerful and each possess interesting abilities.  They are detailed in several Planescape suppliments, and likely will be detailed in the conversion effort.




What book discusses the Baernoloths?


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## Carnifex (Feb 9, 2004)

I'm fairly sure they're talked about in Faces of Evil, thought I can't check up on that atm, and I'm also fairly sure they're mentioned in several other PS products too.


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 9, 2004)

Carnifex said:
			
		

> I'm fairly sure they're talked about in Faces of Evil, thought I can't check up on that atm, and I'm also fairly sure they're mentioned in several other PS products too.




Who published it?  I don't remember reading about them in any TSR/WOTC products.


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 9, 2004)

I stand corrected... I went to RPGnow and found it.  Should have figured that it was a Planescape book.


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## Paka (Feb 9, 2004)

Sigil falls, Sigil as the center of the resistance.  Githyanki and Githzarai continue their war or make peace.  Interesting decisions for the DM to make.  The forces at war are epic and cosmos-shattering, nothing can be taken for granted anymore.

Ravenloft?  Perhaps the Mist is working for the Fiends and works to bring some powerful forces for good into Ravenloft by turning their lives tragic and their love into hate.

After looking through the Manual of the Planes, I think when the Demons and Devils made peace the Blood Pact was drawn up on the Crawling City, home of the General of Gehenna, leader of the Yugoloths.

Why do I have Sigil fall?  I thought it was such a pillar of the D&D mythos and having it fall to siege really drives home the larger than life vibe of the entire storyline.  It is a city that should really never fall to a seige.  But it works well as a home for the resistance too.  I can see that as working well.  

Thanks for reading, keep posting any ideas or images that pop into your head.


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## Leopold (Feb 9, 2004)

I say stick with the core setting of using 'planescape' and the greyhawk worlds and nothing else. Don't delve into RL or DS or SJ or anything like that. Keep it simple


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## Valiantheart (Feb 9, 2004)

The signing of a piece accord between the fiends who certainly have repercussions throughout the cosmos.

Prime's might rain blood on that day signifying the universe weeping or Clerics might hear their God's actually weeping and be unable to shut it out.  Perhaps a good indication that a Prime is about to be the next target of the united fiends would be hundreds of Angel carcasses raining from the sky onto the worlds as a precursor.

Think big apocalyptic allusions and portents.


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## Paka (Feb 9, 2004)

Valiantheart said:
			
		

> The signing of a piece accord between the fiends who certainly have repercussions throughout the cosmos.
> 
> ....
> 
> Think big apocalyptic allusions and portents.




Rock on, great stuff.

Maybe peace accords and written pacts across the planes catch fire or become drenched in blood.  Everyone with an oath has nightmares in which their fellow oathtaker has broken their oath in the most terrible way imaginable.  The Demons and Devils who have captured angels and celestials kill all of their prisoners of war in a dark ritual in which the bodies are spilled into the Styxx.  The corpses of these angels are washing up on the shores of rivers across the planes.


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## La Bete (Feb 9, 2004)

Paka said:
			
		

> Across the planes the corpses of these angels are washing up on the shores of rivers across the planes.





Now thats some creepy imagery.   

carry on... -great stuff.


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## Valiantheart (Feb 10, 2004)

Paka said:
			
		

> Rock on, great stuff.
> 
> Maybe peace accords and written pacts across the planes catch fire or become drenched in blood.  Everyone with an oath has nightmares in which their fellow oathtaker has broken their oath in the most terrible way imaginable.  The Demons and Devils who have captured angels and celestials kill all of their prisoners of war in a dark ritual in which the bodies are spilled into the Styxx.  The corpses of these angels are washing up on the shores of rivers across the planes.





Good, good.  

It would be a good idea for your PCs to visit a chared and ruined world where the bodies of all the different humanoids have been piled up into a massive mound reaching far into the smoking blood red sky.  

If you want to get really dark with the oath thing you could have an event that breaks all bonds.  Children turn on their parents.  Pets and Servants kill their masters.  Husbands and wives at each others necks.  Longtime friends suddenly become blood enemies.  When the event ends the PCs can look around to see a world wrapped in chaos and overcome by the friends and loved ones they slew with their own hands (not the PCs of course).

Also, perhaps a Cosmos spanning plague would be a great portent.  One that strikes down primes and planars alike.  One that even Gods arent immune too.


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## Paka (Feb 10, 2004)

The Blood Plague that followed the Pact wasn't engineered by the fiends at all.  It was later discovered to be only an unfortunate side effect, causing the eyes of all of the afflicted, from prime material mortals to greater gods and goddess to bleed from the eyes like gruesome tears.  Not only the gods but their statues bled thus.

The Stars and the moons turned a shade of blood red for some time.  The weak and infirmed were killed by the plague but most strong and hardy folk were merely cursed with terrible night terrors.  By the time the last of the plague victims was cured, Sigil had fallen and the war had begun.

Many adventuring companies who pledged to destroy this Blood Pact named themselves after the great events that signaled the union.  Sisters of the Red Tears, the Tearblood Nightmare and the Order of the Angel's Gravediggers are all names taken by those who picked up spellbook and sword in hopes of making the planes a safer place.

Sometimes they managed to liberate a gate or stop a city from falling under infernal influence but often they died in unmarked graves, or were sent to fiendish prison demi-planes.


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## Shemeska (Feb 10, 2004)

Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> I'm curious, where did you read this nonsense?  There are no ArchYugoloths.  To my knowledge they didn't include Anthraxus in the BOVD (yes, I'm going back to 1E AD&D) and he is the only Yugoloth that MIGHT be equal in power to the Archdevils and the Demon Princes.




I suggest you go back and read 'Faces of Evil:The Fiends', the 'Planes of Conflict' Box set, and 'Hellbound:The Blood War', for information regarding the Baernaloths as well as their roll in the formation of the Yugoloths, the start of the Blood War, etc.

All TSR Planescape books.

Stats-wise the Baern aren't anything to call home about, except that fiend's seem to fear them and obey them almost without question. Yugoloths seem to venerate them with a devotion that approaches that reserved for normally godlike beings. Most importantly, they 'know' things. They possess secrets of such magnitude and potency that it would shatter the faith of a celestial, and indeed it did in the form of a solar known as the Maeldur Et Kavurik (see Hellbound and the story of the solar's corruption by the Baernaloth Daru Ib Shamiq).

As far as Arch'loths and Unique Yugoloth lords go, there are indeed a number of them. Anthraxus the former Oinoloth, Mydianchlarus the current Oinoloth, Helekanalaith the Keeper of the Tower of the Arcanaloths, Bubonix the Lord of the Tower of Incarnate Pain and self proclaimed Overlord of Carceri, Cholerix a general and vassal of Bubonix, Taba the Infiltrator of the Planes (ie perfect shapeshifter, among other things), Xenghara the Fallen, Cerlic/Charon the Lord of the Marraenaloths, Typhus a Blood War mercenary leader for sale to the highest bidder.

And then looming over them all is the General of Gehenna, perhaps a myth created by the Oinoloth, perhaps a godslayer, perhaps a returned Baernaloth, or most commonly whispered to be the first and greatest Ultraloth of his entire race, the chosen champion of the Baernaloths and the creator of the Heart of Darkness. The Heart was a gem created by himself at the direction of his creators that purged the Yugoloths of the taint of law and chaos, and from this driven out taint was formed the first Tanar'ri and Baatezu who were then herded and exiled to the Abyss and Baator (in the latter case displacing the Ancient Baatorians).

The Baernaloths, of which very few are known or suspected to remain on the planes, the others have 'departed' elsewhere, council and direct a select few of the unique Yugoloths, pulling the puppet strings of their children essentially. A number of them, known as The Demented, is thought to hold council with the General of Gehenna himself. These Baern are though to not reject law and chaos in their interpretation of neutral evil as an abstract concept, but instead to simultaneously embrace the random, destructive impulse of chaos along with the rigid tyrrany of law, embracing both extremes in their concept of true NE.

One of the Baernaloths, known by the name of Apomps the Triple Aspected or Triple Faced, attempted to emulate the actions of his brothers and sisters when they created the Yugoloths as the chosen race of evil. In his madness he created his own children the Gehreleths (Demodands) that were twisted, flawed, chaotic mockeries of the Yugoloths. The other Baern were enraged at his hubris and, fleeing for his life, Apomps gathered his own children and fled into self imposed exile to Carceri where the worship of his creations elevated him to godhood. He and his children still harbor a dire hatred of the Yugoloths, though the feeling is largely mutual with the 'loths in regards to the Gehreleths. Only the small numbers of the Gehreleths, and their divine patronage by Apomps itself has prevented the 'loths from obliterating them. The 'loths, bereft of any divine aid are at the best wary of large scale conflict with Apomp's children.


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## Shemeska (Feb 10, 2004)

I can see Sigil as a refuge, but not a center of resistance. It's a neutral ground, and if it became the home of one side of a planes spanning war, that neutrality of faiths, purposes and philosophies would be skewed one direction or another. I can't see The Lady allowing that to happen. I can see it serving the role of say, Switzerland though, just a Switzerland with an unknowable protector capable of slaying deities with a glance and barring them irrevocably from the city at will.

Perhaps it's just that I'm a Planescape purist and don't care to sacrifice the setting's sacred cow upon the barbecue, that being the inviolable place of The Lady within Sigil. She's a plot device more so than an NPC to be leading refugees around the planes.

Of course I also might have a bit of nitpicking and spoilsport about me concerning the whole idea since I just wrote the 3e Guide to Sigil for Planewalker.com.


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## Paka (Feb 10, 2004)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> I can see Sigil as a refuge, but not a center of resistance. It's a neutral ground, and if it became the home of one side of a planes spanning war, that neutrality of faiths, purposes and philosophies would be skewed one direction or another.




It could be like a fantasy Casablanca.  _"Of all the taverns in all the planes, why'd she have to walk into this one."_

Have fun with the idea.  That's what these forums are all about, right?  I'm just vomiting out ideas here.


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## Chauzu (Feb 10, 2004)

Holy cow! You have no idea how great of a twist these ideas are going to have on my already armageddon game I'm creating. Yow yow yow! This is gonna be sweeeet! Mwhahaha!


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## Chauzu (Feb 10, 2004)

Oh, and here's a question. If you take this into the Forgotten Realms, how will the Kir-lanan's be affected by this?


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## Paka (Feb 10, 2004)

Chauzu said:
			
		

> Oh, and here's a question. If you take this into the Forgotten Realms, how will the Kir-lanan's be affected by this?




I wouldn't know a Kir-lanan if one came up to me and booted me in the face.

No idea.

Sorry.

Who?


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## Nightfall (Feb 10, 2004)

Paka said:
			
		

> I wouldn't know a Kir-lanan if one came up to me and booted me in the face.
> 
> No idea.
> 
> ...



Bunch of gargoyle creatures created from the mystical backlash of the deaths of Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul. They have no divine spellcasting ability and hate ALL the gods.

Calico,

Regarding your question about the evil gods, depends on how the whole "power from Worship" works. I mean if it is in effect, then you have a problem yes. If not, then they get by.


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## Shemeska (Feb 10, 2004)

Chauzu said:
			
		

> Oh, and here's a question. If you take this into the Forgotten Realms, how will the Kir-lanan's be affected by this?




I'd say the Kir-lanan would be happy as long as it heralded the deaths of the deities of Toril. Anything that led to that, and the death of the worshippers of those powers would be kosher for them, considering the kir-lanan's history.

Hmm, at some point I'll have to put up a story hour considering the perhaps apocalyptic events in my own Planescape campaign. 

"Regressing backwards, rushing forwards always. Stumbling towards Oblivion." - Sarkithel fek Parthis the Chronicler, 5th of the Demented


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## Allanon (Feb 10, 2004)

_NOTE: The spoiler tags are placed for those who do not wish to know the ending of the 2nd edition adventure 'Dead Gods', chances are you either know it already or have never heard about it but still, better safe than sorry._

I'm currently walking my party through 'Dead Gods' and with the way they've approached things thus far I'd say there is a pretty big chance that 



Spoiler



Orcus will rise again


. I'm thinking of combining that with the start of this armageddon like campaign idea. 

At first it will seem innocent just some chant about 



Spoiler



Orcus


 returning to his rightfull place, after that their will be hushed talk of talks between the fiendish races. And after that all hell will brake loose ... hehehe, just imagining their faces as I let it slowly become obvious that the return of 



Spoiler



Orcus


 started this whole chain of events will be priceless


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 10, 2004)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> The Heart was a gem created by himself at the direction of his creators that purged the Yugoloths of the taint of law and chaos, and from this driven out taint was formed the first Tanar'ri and Baatezu who were then herded and exiled to the Abyss and Baator (in the latter case displacing the Ancient Baatorians).




So the Demons and Devils are byproducts of the Yugoloth's quest to purify themselves?  Not too shabby I suppose.  I guess I still like the biblical view of devils.  The Nine Hells is obviously taken from Dante's Inferno and basically I just swap the name of Lucifer out for Asmodeus (though I don't have Asmodeus buried up to his waist in ice eating the flesh of Judas and two other betrayers whose names escape me right now).  IMC I make Asmodeus a former celestial who was cast out of paradise by The Creator prior to the creation of the prime.  The devils are those celestials that sided with Asmodeus and demons are the celestials that didn't chose a side.


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## JacktheRabbit (Feb 10, 2004)

I like the idea of Sigil falling. If you want to try and explain how here is an idea for you.

The Lady is not a god but an all powerful creature. She can do anything she wants within Sigil at any time with one and only one exception. She cannot break her own rules. The most important rule of the Lady is that no God may exist in Sigil.

Someone of great evil learns about items decides to use them. This person or persons or secret society have long wanted to control Sigil and its many doors. They have been unable to do this with the Lady there though.

Here comes the dark part. The person or group travels deep into the Astral and finds the decaying body of a long dead god. It is currently being used as a home by some Githyanki but through some action (possibly duped PC's) the Githyanki are driven off or slain.

After the Gith are gone a dark ritual is enacted. Thousands of innocents are brought into the Astral to the to the body of the dead god. Dark rituals are enacted and the innocents slain. Using the ritual the last tiny bit of divine power are drawn out of the dead god. This power is immediatly channeled through one of the myrid gates in Sigil. There that power seeks out the most powerful creature around to infuse. 

Now at the same time as the ritual several hundred members of the society have started a rampage through Sigil slaying all of the Dabau (IIRC) who are the servants of the Lady. This slaughter finally forces the Lady to manifest. Once she manifests the portal opens and though she is able to close it almost instantly a tiny portion of the divine energy makes it into Sigil where it bonds with her. The energy is small so small that it barely makes her a Quasi-deity. That is enough though. By her own rules she cannot exist in Sigil and the city itself expels her.

This will leave Sigil undefended by the lady. Only the citizens of Sigil themselves are left to defend when the hordes of fiends storm the city.


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 10, 2004)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> I like the idea of Sigil falling. If you want to try and explain how here is an idea for you.
> 
> The Lady is not a god but an all powerful creature. She can do anything she wants within Sigil at any time with one and only one exception. She cannot break her own rules. The most important rule of the Lady is that no God may exist in Sigil.
> 
> ...




That is entirely too cool!!!!


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## Toras (Feb 10, 2004)

Sigil can fall, if you remove the Lady from the equation.  
1.But what I contend is due to the fact that only the Lady is able to alter Sigils portals, they would be unsealable in her abscene.  Given that fact, no occupying force would be able to hold the city proper.  Attacks can come from all sides, and even if you guard the large and well known portals, it would be impossible for Demons and Devils to hold the city.

There would be about 2-3 weeks were the demons and devils would have street to street fighting, and despite their number, Sigil residence would bleed them.  By the time they had cleared the city, (no small task given what is running around in  it, and under it), they would still be suffering from Guerilla style attacks from the many open portals.  You would literally have to kill every non-demon and devil off in the city and then pour the city so full of them that they could guard every tunnel, portal and gate way.  Your offense would stall just to hold the city, and unless you took every gate town as well, you wouldn't stand a chance of even beginning to hold.

Sigil wouldn't turn into a Demonic/Devil stronghold, but rather the equivalent of Vietnam or Seriavo, only 666 times worse.  The overlords would keep pouring troups in and Sigil would keep eating them.  You wouldn't even need a huge number of troops, just a couple high level adventuring parties would suffice.  
And given the number of people who would want Sigil back, they would be depleting their forces rather quickly.  

And even if you could seal portals, they just pop up everywhere here and offer much the same problem.  Just something to think about.


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## JacktheRabbit (Feb 10, 2004)

Toras said:
			
		

> Sigil can fall, if you remove the Lady from the equation.
> 1.But what I contend is due to the fact that only the Lady is able to alter Sigils portals, they would be unsealable in her abscene.  Given that fact, no occupying force would be able to hold the city proper.  Attacks can come from all sides, and even if you guard the large and well known portals, it would be impossible for Demons and Devils to hold the city.
> 
> There would be about 2-3 weeks were the demons and devils would have street to street fighting, and despite their number, Sigil residence would bleed them.  By the time they had cleared the city, (no small task given what is running around in  it, and under it), they would still be suffering from Guerilla style attacks from the many open portals.  You would literally have to kill every non-demon and devil off in the city and then pour the city so full of them that they could guard every tunnel, portal and gate way.  Your offense would stall just to hold the city, and unless you took every gate town as well, you wouldn't stand a chance of even beginning to hold.
> ...





The Abyss really is the inifinite plane. There are so many demons in the abyss that you could wipe out every inhabitant in Sigil with ease. Then after that it would just be sheer numbers that would keep anyone from being insane enough to take a portal TO Sigil.


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## Shemeska (Feb 10, 2004)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> The Abyss really is the inifinite plane. There are so many demons in the abyss that you could wipe out every inhabitant in Sigil with ease. Then after that it would just be sheer numbers that would keep anyone from being insane enough to take a portal TO Sigil.




Well, I've already said my bit a number of posts back. But I think the main point that Toras should have stressed is that no invading force, be they demon, devil, Yugoloth, celestial or true deity can enter Sigil without The Lady allowing it. Portal key or not, a portal doesn't open if by The Lady's design or whim it simply doesn't open.

Yes it's one of the hard core points regarding Sigil, but it's one that has to be taken into consideration unless you've got a disgustingly well conceived notion of getting around it, somehow. That sort of story and setup should frankly take a very long time in and out of game to be conceived and fall into place. Otherwise I think it's rushed and not being given the time it needs to mature, sink in and frankly, and most importantly, be believable.

Still, my problems with Sigil being invaded aside, I think this thread can give some folks some interesting ideas to play around with. 

And any mention of Sigil of course is very cool 

[www.planewalker.com for all your 3e Planescape conversion needs, factions, feats, and Sigil itself]


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## JacktheRabbit (Feb 10, 2004)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> Well, I've already said my bit a number of posts back. But I think the main point that Toras should have stressed is that no invading force, be they demon, devil, Yugoloth, celestial or true deity can enter Sigil without The Lady allowing it. Portal key or not, a portal doesn't open if by The Lady's design or whim it simply doesn't open.
> 
> Yes it's one of the hard core points regarding Sigil, but it's one that has to be taken into consideration unless you've got a disgustingly well conceived notion of getting around it, somehow. That sort of story and setup should frankly take a very long time in and out of game to be conceived and fall into place. Otherwise I think it's rushed and not being given the time it needs to mature, sink in and frankly, and most importantly, be believable.
> 
> ...





That is why I posted my long bit about taking out the Lady. You are right by the current convention if she is still in Sigil and in power then she cannot be removed.


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## Paka (Feb 10, 2004)

Sigil can be a Vietnam, Casablanca or Minus Morgul.  

Have fun and think _evil_ thoughts.


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## DanMcS (Feb 10, 2004)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> Well, I've already said my bit a number of posts back. But I think the main point that Toras should have stressed is that no invading force, be they demon, devil, Yugoloth, celestial or true deity can enter Sigil without The Lady allowing it. Portal key or not, a portal doesn't open if by The Lady's design or whim it simply doesn't open.




Yep.  That's canon.  And if it slows up the story, about the fiends overrunning the universe, it should be instantly ignored, and no amount of complaining by the by-the-bookers should change the author's mind.  Sigil and the Lady of Pain have always been heavy-handed plot devices anyway, so changing them matters not a whit.

In fact, if I were running a campaign like this, I wouldn't even feel compelled to come up with an explanation immediately.  I'd leave it a mystery; if the PCs have no way of knowing how, exactly, the fiends took over the city, then the players don't get to know either, and they don't even get to know whether /I/ know or not 

This lets them think you've come up with something really evil and earthshattering, and nothing can scare players more than the plot twists they dream up in their own heads.


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## Toras (Feb 10, 2004)

Yes, there is the fact that the Lady has absolute control over Sigilian portals, and no one else has ever been able to rest that from her.  Thats what got Aoskar killed.
But beyond that, saying the Abyss is infinite is meaningless.
You would need infinite time and resources to marshall an infinite army, especially with Chaotic beings that often would be pressed into service.  
Given that we aren't dealing with Infinite Time, you would have a finite, though large number.

Points
1. There are only So many portals to the lower planes, and only so many additional ones that could be accessed in a reasonable amount of time.
This number is significantly less than the amount of troups mustered.
2. Thusly it will take time to deploy those troops within Sigil.
3. In this time, those much more limited forces would be likely engaged by city forces (after initial suprise).
4. Now you have a much more limited force engaging a native population in its own city, in street combat (something which does not necessarily favor large numbers) Keep in mind, while Balors and Pitfiends are barred from Sigil, the Prime equivalents such as Titans, 20+ adventures, proxies, and etc are not, and despite the numbers, they will make it a bloody battle.  

5. In time the numbers would overwhelm the natives of Sigil (at least those living on the service, undersigil is fun). Attrition would likely be great, but in time 
6.  Now you have the city, and you can keep moving more and more devils and demons in.

That is assuming the Lady is taken/forced out of Sigil, assuming that she can't control the portals from the outside. (Wouldn't the Fiendish Army feel stupid if they got in and discovered they were stuck in a city which they couldn't leave.)

You could fill Sigil completely full of devils and demons (pack them in like Sardines) and you still have this essential problem.  Sigil is FILLED with portals, portals that now no one can close.  (Only the Lady could do so previously).
You now have an army that is vunerable from every possible angle.  Every non-Lower Planar portal is a potential entry point for a quick strike force.  All they have to do is jump in, blast some fiends and jump back out.  They cannot possibly defend every portal completely, and even if they have guards on Every Portal (Every enclosed space has the potential), they can't defend against people just tossing bombs, spells or other such things through.  Hell, if some enterprising Celestials wanted to, they could use a bless water enchantment and a decanter of endless water to flood certain sections with holy water.  The Air portals that supply the city with air would be good candidates, as would any of the high level portals.  

Not matter how many troops you have, you cannot maintain the necessary discipline to sustain a conflict on all sides nor posse the knowledge over every portal in Sigil to properly defend them.  It would be a constant blood bath, especially if the forces not aligned with the Fiends got organized. (Easier task, cause Neutrality and Good don't feed upon themselves)

That is my other point.


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## RingXero (Feb 10, 2004)

Well, I don't like to think that the Lady/Sigil is sancrosanct and cannot be touched, but if you do allow sigil to be sacked, keep her as a force of nature, neutral, etc...

Personally like the idea of the Lady removed from Sigil, trying to get back in.  

Let's say somehow the Demons/Devils/'loths/Orcus, etc... manage to taint her with divine essence, and she gets booted.  Maybe this is done with knowledge gleened from Mechanus, succesfully mapping all of her mazes, or whatever.  It doesn't matter as long as it's not repeatable.  But, without the Lady to act as a stabilizing force, the portals of Sigil go wild, travel through them it extremely hazardous, travelers end up in random planes, even if they make it through alive at all.  Thus making Sigil impossible to take and even if done so, worthless as a staging point.  Planar travel is also affected to a lesser degree.  The Demons(etc...) who thought they knew how to control the portals thus begin to search for the Lady to extract her secrets from her.  This also has a side effect of causing their expansion to slow down to a crawl.

The Lady meanwhile can create temporary gateways/portals that are safe and stable, or ones made close to her are.  Keep her as a 'force', a small court of Dabus interpret her will or think they do, no communication directly with any pc or other npc.  The Dabus may recruit npc/pcs to her, but her 'side' is just to remove the divine essence that taints her so that she can return to Sigil.  Any good (or evil) done is purely a side effect.

The good powers may not want her to be back in place as this would allow the Demons and Devils to expand with great speed once more.

RX


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## Zappo (Feb 10, 2004)

Allanon said:
			
		

> At first it will seem innocent just some chant about
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's a neat idea, 



Spoiler



Orcus


 is possibly the one being who could forge such an alliance, seeing as he 



Spoiler



has been Primus for a while and has learned to think in a lawful way a bit - during one of the intermissions, he is even described as noticing this change in himself


.


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## Chauzu (Feb 11, 2004)

I have some questions for you Planescapers:

Is the Lady an all-knowing sort-of being, or can she be fooled?

Does the Lady control the portals inside the Portal Towns also, or just the portals in Sigil?

If she can only control the portals in Sigil, why can't the fiends coming through a portal in Plague-Mort, Torch, or Ribcage just fly up to Sigil? Is Sigil only enterable through portals, even if you are coming from the rest of the Outlands?

What other powers does the Lady have?


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## Shemeska (Feb 11, 2004)

Chauzu said:
			
		

> I have some questions for you Planescapers:
> 
> Is the Lady an all-knowing sort-of being, or can she be fooled?
> 
> ...




The Lady is generally considered to be all powerful within Sigil, though there have been a very slim few instances where her ability to sense a small area in the city was blocked by an artifact (of unknown origin and purpose, however She allowed the building it rested in to exist, perhaps on purpose. This one instance of a perceived weakness by The Lady is anamolous. (the module 'Harbinger House')

It is known that The Lady's scope of vision seems to defy the normal mortal and immortal sense of linear time. (see 'Faction War')

The Lady has ultimate and final control over the portals of Sigil. Aka any portal that goes out of Sigil or leads into Sigil is over the control of The Lady ultimately, regardless of where this portal is or who is attempting to open it.

The only way to enter Sigil is by way of the portals. The infinite spire in the Outlands is infinite and cannot be scaled to reach Sigil. Sigil does overlap the Astral but you cannot enter Sigil nor leave Sigil by way of the Astral, it is blocked off from the rest of the Astral plane by a barrier that cannot be traversed by objects or spells.

The Lady can maze an individual, and need not be present physically to invoke this power. A person simply turns a corner and finds themselves in a new room or street that loops back onto itself, devoid of any persons besides themselves. The mazes exist as portions of Sigil spun off into the Deep Ethereal as demiplanes unto themselves. You can find and enter these from the outside, however once inside the only way to escape is by way of a single hidden portal that is perhaps more to taunt the condemned than to offer hope of escape.

Also, when in the mazes you do not age, and food appears for you twice per day. Dying inside the mazes is unknown as to what would happen to your soul, though since suicide might be considered an easy way out it may be impossible to kill yourself, or you may arise spontaneously after each attempt. This is an unknown.

The Lady also has the power to flay an individual, Her shadow simply appears and wherever it touches its victim they erupt into a storm of bloody cuts, gouges and slashes. They quite literally explode in a mess of blood and gore. There is no way to escape this punishment, dodge it or resist it. This applies to mortals, immortals, and even true deities. Aoskar the greater god of portals, planewalking and opportunity was obliterated by The Lady along with his temple in Sigil, his priests, and his worshippers (in Sigil and outside it as well). The only survivor known was Fell the fallen Dabus, Aoskar's proxy who forsaked The Lady and survives now perhaps as mercy or punishment for his sins.

The Lady's ability to maze is perhaps capable of reaching outside Sigil as well, though this is suspected but not proven. Factol Skall of the Dustmen may have been in the Dustmen faction headquarters in the Negative Energy plane at the time that he was mazed, rather than being in Sigil. If so this extends The Lady's reach considerably.

That said, The Lady is a passive defender of Sigil and doesn't always react in public and immediately to any threat. For instance the Blood War once spilled over into the Hive ward of Sigil for a week or more and She did nothing till finally ejecting the fiend's en masse on day. The Lady does not answer every minor threat to Sigil's residents lest they treat her authority and protection as expected and routine. She cares for the city of Sigil itself, not necessarily its citizens...

For a bit more on this either look at the older Planescape books, or a nice summary (if I do say so myself) in the 3e Sigil guide at www.planewalker.com , since it covers The Lady, the portals, mazes, etc.

The Lady may have other powers as well, she's an unknown in many ways. (See 'Faction War' for instances of The Lady hurling an NPC back in time, erasing his memories selectively, bottling his soul in an impenetreble gem for his own 'future' self to use to kill 'himself', and hurling the gem into the depths of Carceri. Death by created time loop essentially)


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## Chauzu (Feb 11, 2004)

Thanks for the info Shem.

Now I know how I can make this work for my own campaign setting, but hmmm... this is a toughy, but there's gotta be a way to make this work without that mine in mind. Now I have to actually THINK.


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## Valiantheart (Feb 11, 2004)

My question is with a entity as enigmatic and secretive as the Lady of Pain, whos to say she wouldnt open the gates or simply not care that the demons and devils invade.  

Or perhaps the Lady was one of the original Primal forces in the Universe and the consort of Asmodeus before he fell into the 9 Hells.  If he ascended once again she might go to rejoin him.

Perhaps the Lady just goes "missing" on the day the Blood War ends (aka another portent of things to come).  No one knows where she disappeared to or why.


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## Shemeska (Feb 11, 2004)

Valiantheart said:
			
		

> Perhaps the Lady just goes "missing" on the day the Blood War ends (aka another portent of things to come).  No one knows where she disappeared to or why.




Oh indeed... The Lady is generally regarded as true neutral, if not beyond the general idea of morality at all. She does what must be done to protect Sigil regardless of the moral aspect or fallout of any of her actions. I could honestly see her flaying or mazing ever sodding berk in Sigil in order to further some other goal beyond typical mortal comprehension. The PC's step from the Gatetown of Torch into Sigil and find the city dead and empty, silent but for the Dabus servants of The Lady going about their tasks of upkeep. When asked where the entire population of Sigil is, the Dabus simply reply with a rebus symbol of The Lady, complete with blank pitiliess gaze and bladed headdress, and nothing more...

It's very possible to give The Lady a significantly darker aspect and interpretation than She normally gets as a benign and uncaring protector. For instance, The Lady might be more prisoner than ruler of Sigil. The Lady might simply be the projected aspect and avatar of a greater being locked away from the multiverse for a reason. The Lady of Pain as, for example, a Lovecraft-esque lurker on the doorstep, so to speak. After all, any bound space in Sigil can be a portal with the right key, and the entirety of Sigil is built on the inside rim of a giant open toroid. What if that shape itself, that bound space is a portal in and of itself? And where might it lead if unlocked and opened? *grin*

There's lots of ways that you could deal with The Lady aside from the norm, after all, our way of perceiving her is based on maybe 20,000 years of history, if that much. That's nothing in the timescale of such beings. We might just not have a broad enough scope of time to sit back and look upon to garner a meaningful idea of Her Serenity's true motivations.


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## Leopold (Feb 12, 2004)

bump


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 12, 2004)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> The Abyss really is the inifinite plane. There are so many demons in the abyss that you could wipe out every inhabitant in Sigil with ease. Then after that it would just be sheer numbers that would keep anyone from being insane enough to take a portal TO Sigil.




I kind of disagree.  The Abyss may be infinite but the number of demons is not.  If they were then they would have overrun the Nine Hells long ago.


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 12, 2004)

Paka... I have the solution to your Lady of Pain problem.  Look in the Artifacts section of the Psionics Handbook.  Now look at the Annulus artifact.  It is an artifact that has the ability to DESTROY A GOD though it will infact be destroyed in the process.  Perhaps one Archfiend or the other got the Annulus and used it on the Lady of Pain.  That would be the end of her... end of discussion.


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## Paka (Feb 12, 2004)

Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> Paka... I have the solution to your Lady of Pain problem.




I don't see it as a problem.

For me, this thread isn't about the amount of Devil infantry or how powerful the Lady of Pain is but about taking the mythology of D&D (and it really is its own mythology now) and rocking it, with the PC's leaving it different from how they found it.  I want my players to know that nothing is safe, nothing is sacred except for a rockin' story that will make them sweat and force their characters to be the greatest heroes or the vilest villains that ever graced a character sheet.

Thanks for the thoughts, though.  

Appreciated.


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 12, 2004)

There was also an Artifact item in Ravenloft for 2nd edition known as the Rift Spanner that allowed someone using it to escape Ravenloft.  Now, if it can defy the Dark Powers and breech Ravenlofts borders perhaps it can breech the borders of Sigil.  Sure, the Lady of Pain can keep the gods out but the Dark Powers can keep a god in as well.  What if the Rift Spanner was retreived from Ravenloft and used in the siege on Sigil?


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## Paka (Feb 12, 2004)

Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> What if the Rift Spanner was retreived from Ravenloft and used in the siege on Sigil?




Have fun.  The ideas is out on the boards and is therefor *yours*, do with it what ye will.


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 12, 2004)

Paka said:
			
		

> I want my players to know that nothing is safe, nothing is sacred except for a rockin' story that will make them sweat and force their characters to be the greatest heroes or the vilest villains that ever graced a character sheet. Appreciated.




Yeah but I can just imagine the party finding out about the plan ahead of time to use the Annulus on the Lady of Pain and getting to Sigil too late to save her but just in time to see her bathed in the power of the Annulus, her very essense being destroyed in the attack.  As soon as she was destroyed they'd then be witness to the portals being flung open and the army of fiends pouring through slaughtering anyone in their way.


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## Paka (Feb 12, 2004)

I really dont' want to hijack this thread but...isn't the annulus an artifact that destroys creatures who use Psionics?


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 12, 2004)

Paka said:
			
		

> I really dont' want to hijack this thread but...isn't the annulus an artifact that destroys creatures who use Psionics?




Yep but it also states that it has the ability to destroy a diety.  To the best of my knowledge WOTC hasn't put any Psionic Dieties out there so I interpret that to mean that it can destroy any published diety.


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## rounser (Feb 12, 2004)

> Yeah but I can just imagine the party finding out about the plan ahead of time to use the Annulus on the Lady of Pain and getting to Sigil too late to save her but just in time to see her bathed in the power of the Annulus, her very essense being destroyed in the attack. As soon as she was destroyed they'd then be witness to the portals being flung open and the army of fiends pouring through slaughtering anyone in their way.



Ooh! OOh!  And from amongst the Yugoloths, maybe a terrible new force can arise...the Yugogirls.


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 12, 2004)

rounser said:
			
		

> Ooh! OOh!  And from amongst the Yugoloths, maybe a terrible new force can arise...the Yugogirls.




And not just that, the Yugoloths create a new form a transport.  A really cheap one that falls apart easily but gets great gas milage... The Yugo!

What do you call a one seater Yugo?  I-Go
What do you call a two seater Yugo? We-Go
What do you call someone else's Yugo?  They-Go


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## Shemeska (Feb 12, 2004)

Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> Yeah but I can just imagine the party finding out about the plan ahead of time to use the Annulus on the Lady of Pain and getting to Sigil too late to save her but just in time to see her bathed in the power of the Annulus, her very essense being destroyed in the attack.  As soon as she was destroyed they'd then be witness to the portals being flung open and the army of fiends pouring through slaughtering anyone in their way.





Actually you'd find the portals of Sigil closed to you if you tried to bring something like that into Sigil. And who said that The Lady was a deity? Deities generally don't kill every single person who attempts to worship them. *evil chuckle*

If you attempt to smuggle anything into the City of Doors that would be potentially a dangerous imbalance within, She simply bars your entry to the city. And even if She allowed you to take the Annulus into Sigil who said that it would actually work if you tried to use it on Her? It would be worse than trying to kill Ao while on Toril using a toothpick. That's the seeming level of power we're talking about here, but then take that to another level of magnitude entirely.

W/ regards to the Rift Spanner and the Dark Powers of Ravenloft. As I recall they actually have mentioned in canon for Ravenloft that over a certain level of true deity the Dark Powers can't actually contain that person in Ravenloft. Vecna was the shining example of this. As a demigod he was contained, but above that he managed to escape. (I can't however say where this was stated, I'm not too keen on RL)


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Feb 12, 2004)

Paka said:
			
		

> ...For me, this thread isn't about the amount of Devil infantry or how powerful the Lady of Pain is but about taking the mythology of D&D (and it really is its own mythology now) and rocking it, with the PC's leaving it different from how they found it...



Interesting side note: People seem to make the same mistake with the D&D mythology that they make with their mythologies and religions in real life.  They forget the real purpose of said mythology (in this case to have fun with it) and instead jump up and down trying to maintain its "rules."

In any case, thanks for kicking off this thread, Paka.  It's been an interesting and fun read.


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 12, 2004)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> Actually you'd find the portals of Sigil closed to you if you tried to bring something like that into Sigil. And who said that The Lady was a deity? Deities generally don't kill every single person who attempts to worship them. *evil chuckle*




So the Lady is an unbeatable force, an all knowing entity with every strength and no weaknesses.  She knows when someone enters the city with pocket lint.  Basically to defeat her you have to destroy reality so it would take her with it.  No wonder I never liked Planescape.  Out of curiosity, if you entered the city with the Annulus inside a portable hole would she detect the Annulus or just the portable hole.  The Annulus is inside a pocket dimension and so really isn't entering Sigil until it is taken out of the bag and by that time it is already inside and through the portals.  No wait, let me guess... she'd immediately sense it and put the Annulus holder into one of her mazes.  Since she is all knowing she'd no doubt know exactlly what the annulus is.

Sorry for the rant, I've never liked the idea of omnipotent entities in RPGs.

Shemeska, you seem to be the sage on Planescape.  How do you beat the Lady?


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## Paka (Feb 12, 2004)

Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> Shemeska, you seem to be the sage on Planescape.  How do you beat the Lady?




Can we start a seperate thread on how to beat the Lady of Pain?

Thanks.


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 12, 2004)

Paka said:
			
		

> Can we start a seperate thread on how to beat the Lady of Pain?
> 
> Thanks.




Done!


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## Vargo (Feb 12, 2004)

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=77171

Linkage.


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 12, 2004)

Vargo said:
			
		

> Er, where?



http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=77171&page=2


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## FunkBGR (Feb 12, 2004)

Hey - Yeenoghu and his gnolls would get involved! What are some other "deities" (like Lolth) that are of the fiendish variety?

Where do you think Formians would get involved? I mean, they're good - but would they enslave all who wish to oppose? I can totally see this kind of thing being corrupted by fiendish taint.

I know that multiple times they mention how the layers of various planes get ripped from their native area and go elsewhere - perhaps this is what they do - they rip Hell into the Abyss, and then reform it into something that just represents evil.

As far as the Lady of Pain - what's to say that Demogorgon or Asmodeus couldn't negotiate with her, and have her join their side? I always thought Sigil sounded a little 'Ravenloftish', where the Lady of Pain is a prisoner of her own city - perhaps the baddies find an artifact to free her or something - and she descends to help lead a triumvirate of Demogorgon, Asmodeus and the Lady of Pain.

Who does Celestia have as far as "noted" personalities, besides the regular gods? I know the Exalted Deeds book published a bunch of angels and stuff?

Oh man, so many ideas - must. stop. post. now.


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 12, 2004)

What if the Lady is actually there to guard a darker unknowable evil.  By weakening her the ancient evil is released.  Cthulhu or Azathoth anyone?


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## Shemeska (Feb 12, 2004)

FunkBGR said:
			
		

> As far as the Lady of Pain - what's to say that Demogorgon or Asmodeus couldn't negotiate with her, and have her join their side? I always thought Sigil sounded a little 'Ravenloftish', where the Lady of Pain is a prisoner of her own city - perhaps the baddies find an artifact to free her or something - and she descends to help lead a triumvirate of Demogorgon, Asmodeus and the Lady of Pain.




The Lady seems unconcerned with events outside of Sigil, and in the past 1000 years or so, She has spoken all of twice. Never by Herself, always having Her message conveyed by a Dabus hovering near to Her and giving forth Her proclaimation when gestured at by Her Serenity. You're not likely to negotiate anything considering that She already bans deities and Archfiends from the city for a reason. *shrug*


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## Valiantheart (Feb 13, 2004)

Hey Calico_Jack73.  Are you trying to reach 500 posts in one thread or something!?  Geez man consolidate already I have a hard enough time finding Paka's threads. You know Paka.  The guy who started this thread and whose idea this was.


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## Whitey (Feb 13, 2004)

Hey Paka,

Want some other ideas regarding your story?  Whitey came up with some nifty ones, especially regarding idea #3 posted on the Story Hour thread.  Can Email these along, if you're interested.


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## Paka (Feb 13, 2004)

Whitey said:
			
		

> Hey Paka,
> 
> Want some other ideas regarding your story?  Whitey came up with some nifty ones, especially regarding idea #3 posted on the Story Hour thread.  Can Email these along, if you're interested.




Hey Whitey,

Please post your ideas over at the SH thread, so they're all in one place.

Thanks!


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## Toras (Feb 13, 2004)

Questions for you Paka, as this is your thread, I understand that the Fiends are united, but what about the otherside?
Did this come as a shock, catching many off guard?
Are the Yugoloths involved or did the united demon/devil armies kill them first for the betrayals?
What are the good races doing (Devas, Archons, Guardinals, Eladrin, etc.)?
What are the Nuetral Races doing (Modron,Gith, Inevitables, Slaadi, Rilmani, etc.)?
How are the attacks progressing, are they striking the primes first, Outlands, Inner Planes, Outer planes, or the Astral & Etheral?


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## The Goblin King (Feb 13, 2004)

Valiantheart said:
			
		

> Perhaps the Lady just goes "missing" on the day the Blood War ends (aka another portent of things to come).  No one knows where she disappeared to or why.




So far, I like this suggestion the best.  Just say that she is gone.  Don't explain it.  Nobody knows.  The cool thing is that as a DM you don't have to know either.  When you players speculate about what happened *listen to them*.  If one of them comes up with a good idea just go with it.


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## Paka (Feb 13, 2004)

Toras said:
			
		

> Questions for you Paka, as this is your thread, I understand that the Fiends are united, but what about the otherside?
> Did this come as a shock, catching many off guard?
> Are the Yugoloths involved or did the united demon/devil armies kill them first for the betrayals?
> What are the good races doing (Devas, Archons, Guardinals, Eladrin, etc.)?
> ...




Please don't think that because I started the thread I am the only person who can answer these questions.  I'd like to have some guidance in where the thread goes but if I had all of the answers, I wouldn't have posted it for comments and ideas.  I would've just jotted it down and ran it some day.

I'm heading to bed.  I'll think about these questions and try to answer some of them in the morning.

If anyone with more Plane-savvy has ideas, answers or theories, by all means please post them.

Good night.


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## Wrahn (Feb 13, 2004)

My biggest problem with the idea is the fact the Blood War ended because someone found out the Good Gods manipulated the Fiends.  All I have to say is duh.  It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see whom the Blood War favors.  It doesn’t matter how it started the demons and devils will fight because the other side exists.  To stop the Blood War you would need to change their very nature.

I would suggest that the “discovery” that the Blood Wars were started by the good gods to be a ruse.  What is really happening is that someone, Perhaps the General of Gehenna, perhaps someone else, has created an artifact, powered by a god of peace, trapped inside.  I would further suggest that the Demons and Devils do not side with each other, but pretty much leave each other alone.  So you would not have one enemy, but two and a third enemy manipulating the first two.


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## Wrath of the Swarm (Feb 13, 2004)

What about this?

The Blood War wasn't started by the Good powers, but was the natural result of Lawful Evil and Chaotic Evil interacting.  However, the major powers on both sides of the conflict suddenly begin working together, believing that they can conquer the cosmos by overthrowing Sigil and spreading Evil to all places and planes.  They begin worshipping the Lady, trying to cause her to be cast out of Sigil.

Unfortunately, this doesn't work - the Lady reaches across dimensions and flays demons and devils alike.  In the ensuing disruption, the forces of Good attack.  They had planted the idea of worshipping the Lady as a way to use her as a weapon.  The combined might of the Greater Gods of Good shields their armies from the Lady of Pain while they sweep through the Abyss, causing a weakening of Evil through the planes.  The Wheel becomes so unbalanced that it's in danger of collapsing, destroying the Multiverse and granting true victory to Good, which will then create a cosmos in its own image.


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## JacktheRabbit (Feb 16, 2004)

Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> So the Lady is an unbeatable force, an all knowing entity with every strength and no weaknesses.  She knows when someone enters the city with pocket lint.  Basically to defeat her you have to destroy reality so it would take her with it.  No wonder I never liked Planescape.  Out of curiosity, if you entered the city with the Annulus inside a portable hole would she detect the Annulus or just the portable hole.  The Annulus is inside a pocket dimension and so really isn't entering Sigil until it is taken out of the bag and by that time it is already inside and through the portals.  No wait, let me guess... she'd immediately sense it and put the Annulus holder into one of her mazes.  Since she is all knowing she'd no doubt know exactlly what the annulus is.
> 
> Sorry for the rant, I've never liked the idea of omnipotent entities in RPGs.
> 
> Shemeska, you seem to be the sage on Planescape.  How do you beat the Lady?





There is nothing wrong with the rules. Its the rabid fanboys that are the real terror of DnD. Kill her in whatever manner you want to. Its just a GAME and its a GAME whose rules are finally decided by you the DM.


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## JacktheRabbit (Feb 16, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> My biggest problem with the idea is the fact the Blood War ended because someone found out the Good Gods manipulated the Fiends.  All I have to say is duh.  It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see whom the Blood War favors.  It doesn’t matter how it started the demons and devils will fight because the other side exists.  To stop the Blood War you would need to change their very nature.
> 
> I would suggest that the “discovery” that the Blood Wars were started by the good gods to be a ruse.  What is really happening is that someone, Perhaps the General of Gehenna, perhaps someone else, has created an artifact, powered by a god of peace, trapped inside.  I would further suggest that the Demons and Devils do not side with each other, but pretty much leave each other alone.  So you would not have one enemy, but two and a third enemy manipulating the first two.




I agree. The "discovery" is a bit weak. What I like is some ideas from Planescape that were vaguely hinted at. What if the Blood Wars were run started and manipulated by the Yugs as training. They started it in the ancient past to create the ultimate armies of evil to use to conquer the multiverse. 

Take this to its logical next step and say that day has finally come. The Yugs have decided that the Demons and Devils have finally evolved to the point where the Yugs think they can conquer everything with them.

So using ancient pacts and powers long forgotten but instilled in all demons and devils the Yugs bring them under control (more or less) and weld them into a huge army of evil that they unleash on the cosmos.


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 16, 2004)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> So using ancient pacts and powers long forgotten but instilled in all demons and devils the Yugs bring them under control (more or less) and weld them into a huge army of evil that they unleash on the cosmos.




Better yet, what if the Archfiends had grown beyond the power of the Yugs to control?  They'd find their own armies leaving the Abyss and the Nine Hells in droves.  Naturally they'd take some offense to this and might even side with the forces of good to destroy those who would deprive them of their servitors.


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## JacktheRabbit (Feb 16, 2004)

Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> Better yet, what if the Archfiends had grown beyond the power of the Yugs to control?  They'd find their own armies leaving the Abyss and the Nine Hells in droves.  Naturally they'd take some offense to this and might even side with the forces of good to destroy those who would deprive them of their servitors.




That would work. Its a common item in fiction for evil (or good even) to create a subject creature that ends up being too powerful for the creator to control in the end.

What if when the Yugs decide to exert control the Demons and Devils revolt and slaughter the Yugs. Then filled with the bloodjust of having just destroyed an entire lower planes race they continue their frenzied assaults on the rest of creation. They are not really working together but both are on the rampage (while fighting each other a bit at the same time) and the resulting chaos and destruction is more than the forces of good can really handle.


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## Orius (Feb 16, 2004)

Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> So the Demons and Devils are byproducts of the Yugoloth's quest to purify themselves?  Not too shabby I suppose.  I guess I still like the biblical view of devils.  The Nine Hells is obviously taken from Dante's Inferno and basically I just swap the name of Lucifer out for Asmodeus (though I don't have Asmodeus buried up to his waist in ice eating the flesh of Judas and two other betrayers whose names escape me right now).  IMC I make Asmodeus a former celestial who was cast out of paradise by The Creator prior to the creation of the prime.  The devils are those celestials that sided with Asmodeus and demons are the celestials that didn't chose a side.




It depends on what source you want to use.  The idea of the other fiends being creations of the baernaloths was introduced in _Hellbound_.  Presumably that includes Asmodeus, who wasn't even mentioned in that set.

However, the later 2e product _A Guide to Hell_ presents Asmodeus as a fallen entity of great evil that predates the gods or something like that.  The _Manual of the Planes_ sort of touches on both points, generally presenting Asmo as an archdevil, while hinting that there might be more to him than is generally known.  

So really, it's up to the DM.  Myself, I use Asmo as a proto-god that embodies lawful evil.


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## Orius (Feb 16, 2004)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> I agree. The "discovery" is a bit weak. What I like is some ideas from Planescape that were vaguely hinted at. What if the Blood Wars were run started and manipulated by the Yugs as training. They started it in the ancient past to create the ultimate armies of evil to use to conquer the multiverse.
> 
> Take this to its logical next step and say that day has finally come. The Yugs have decided that the Demons and Devils have finally evolved to the point where the Yugs think they can conquer everything with them.
> 
> So using ancient pacts and powers long forgotten but instilled in all demons and devils the Yugs bring them under control (more or less) and weld them into a huge army of evil that they unleash on the cosmos.




IIRC, something like that was the metaplot behind _Hellbound_.  The yugoloths manipulate the Blood War out of some long-range master plan of evil.  The events in _Hellbound_ involved stripping the fiends of their ability to teleport as a precusor to this.  Basically there was this creature the yugoloths created that allowed the fiends to teleport.  It gave the fiends the ability to teleport because it knew the true names of the fiends.  The climax of the adventure had that creature getting dunked into the river Styx, which made it forget the names of the fiends, and thus depriving them of their ability to teleport.  The yugoloths planned to use the loss of teleportation to gain control over the demons and devils, they'd swear alliegiance to the yugoloths to get teleporting back.  That could make an interesting setup to this Armageddon campaign.


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 16, 2004)

Orius said:
			
		

> So really, it's up to the DM.  Myself, I use Asmo as a proto-god that embodies lawful evil.




Same here!


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## Shemeska (Feb 16, 2004)

Orius said:
			
		

> It depends on what source you want to use.  The idea of the other fiends being creations of the baernaloths was introduced in _Hellbound_.  Presumably that includes Asmodeus, who wasn't even mentioned in that set.
> 
> However, the later 2e product _A Guide to Hell_ presents Asmodeus as a fallen entity of great evil that predates the gods or something like that.  The _Manual of the Planes_ sort of touches on both points, generally presenting Asmo as an archdevil, while hinting that there might be more to him than is generally known.




*nod* The entire Baernaloth's creating the Yugoloths who in turn created the first of the Tanar'ri and Baatezu was expanded mostly in Hellbound, and as I recall, was also touched upon in 'Faces of Evil:The Fiends' and perhaps in the Planes of Conflict box set.

The later 2e Guide to Hell went off in a much different direction from Planescape w/ regards to a number of things, and gets bludgeoned most often for its radical re-interpretation of Asmodeus. It's not so much that re-interpretation that I don't care for, but the total removal of all of the mystery surrounding Asmo. I rather like the idea of his form being a projected avatar of another hidden, massive form. However I didn't care for the whole 2 serpents of law thing which was at odds with previous material, and the whole Ahriman and unbelief thing, that pushed it too out there for my liking.

The 3e MotP I think handled this in a fine way, by mentioning that hidden form idea, but not including the Ahriman idea, and making it rumor that could be included or not included at the discretion of the DM. Very well handled in my opinion.


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## Desdichado (Feb 16, 2004)

DanMcS said:
			
		

> Yep.  That's canon.  And if it slows up the story, about the fiends overrunning the universe, it should be instantly ignored, and no amount of complaining by the by-the-bookers should change the author's mind.  Sigil and the Lady of Pain have always been heavy-handed plot devices anyway, so changing them matters not a whit.
> 
> In fact, if I were running a campaign like this, I wouldn't even feel compelled to come up with an explanation immediately.  I'd leave it a mystery; if the PCs have no way of knowing how, exactly, the fiends took over the city, then the players don't get to know either, and they don't even get to know whether /I/ know or not
> 
> This lets them think you've come up with something really evil and earthshattering, and nothing can scare players more than the plot twists they dream up in their own heads.



Preach it, brother!

Besides, whoever said this was part of the Planescape setting?  Sigil exists in vanilla D&D thanks to 3rd edition.

And any player that hit me with these arguments would be tossed.  No player knows more about the world I'm running than I do, obviously.


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 17, 2004)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> The later 2e Guide to Hell went off in a much different direction from Planescape w/ regards to a number of things, and gets bludgeoned most often for its radical re-interpretation of Asmodeus. It's not so much that re-interpretation that I don't care for, but the total removal of all of the mystery surrounding Asmo. I rather like the idea of his form being a projected avatar of another hidden, massive form. However I didn't care for the whole 2 serpents of law thing which was at odds with previous material, and the whole Ahriman and unbelief thing, that pushed it too out there for my liking.




Would you care to elaborate on Asmo?  He is one of my favorite bad guys and I never did get a look at any of the books you mentioned.


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## Shemeska (Feb 17, 2004)

Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> Would you care to elaborate on Asmo?  He is one of my favorite bad guys and I never did get a look at any of the books you mentioned.




Very roughly here:

Planescape: The Baernaloths were essentially the chosen servitors of abstract evil and were pushed out onto the newly formed planes where they created the Yugoloths as their children and servants. The Yugoloths purged themselves of chaos and law, and those fragments were pushed into the first mortal derived larvae upon the planes which became the first Tanar'ri and Baatezu. They were herded to the Abyss and Baator respectively. The newly made Baatezu somehow overwhelmed the Ancient Baatorians. No mention of Asmo during this time, though it is speculated that the Lords of the Nine, the original/oldest ones, may be either the warped (by law or chaos) Yugoloths that herded the early Baatezu to Baator, or they may be the strongest of those first Baatezu.

Asmodeus is never described beyond being utterly in charge of Baator, the rest of the plane living in fear and marching in lockstep to his manipulations and orders. The paragon of tyranny, the prince of darkness. His name is never actually mentioned since that little is commonly known of him outside of Baator.



GtH: Asmodeus is a fallen greater deity who spawns Pit Fiends from his blood. No mention of the earlier PS material here. Asmodeus is now said to be one of the creators of the planes, one of the so called twin serpents of law. He along with Jazirian the goddess of coatls create the planes or help mold them into shape then have a falling out, she's LG, he's LE. He loses and plummets to Baator. 

While being a greater deity he gains no power from worship but gains power actively from disbelief. We're told that if you die faithless you go straight to the 9th layer of hell, do not pass go, do not collect $200, regardless of alignment. This reinterpretation of Asmo collectively pisses off a large number of folks. Other folks think it's the coolest thing since Chef Boyardee made cheese ravioli.


In order to reconcile the two drastically different tales, Asmo has to be altered slightly from the GtH incarnation. It is possible however, and that's a take that I use. I don't use the twin serpents of law idea however, I don't like it, nor do I feel it makes enough sense when compared with the other material out there. Jazirian doesn't even reside in Chronias the Illuminated Heaven which is typically cast as the diametric opposite of Nessus and Asmodeus, which GtH tries to make her. *shrugs*


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## Felon (Feb 17, 2004)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> And any player that hit me with these arguments would be tossed.  No player knows more about the world I'm running than I do, obviously.




While I don't dispute that a DM's authority is final, I do have to say it must be nice to have so many players clamouring to play your game that you can let your authority go to your head like that. Players are not to be taken for granted. [/shrug]

Having said that, I've been wondering if anyone's made the suggestion that instead of having the demons/devils take out the Lady, that the Lady herself becomes the architect of armageddon. If anyone has the power, knowledge, and resources to unite the tanari and baaetzu [sic] and wage war on the entire cosmos, it's probably her. She's omnipotent in Sigil, but not beyond that city's borders, right? So, she needs a few billion evil minions to work her will. If she's so utterly mysterious, then her motives are hardly inscrutable.


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 19, 2004)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> While being a greater deity he gains no power from worship but gains power actively from disbelief. We're told that if you die faithless you go straight to the 9th layer of hell, do not pass go, do not collect $200, regardless of alignment. This reinterpretation of Asmo collectively pisses off a large number of folks. Other folks think it's the coolest thing since Chef Boyardee made cheese ravioli.




Going with Dante's Inferno I always thought the ninth layer of hell was reserved for betrayers... not disbelievers unless disbelief is considered the highest form of betrayal (which I guess it could be seen as such).


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 19, 2004)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> Jazirian doesn't even reside in Chronias the Illuminated Heaven which is typically cast as the diametric opposite of Nessus and Asmodeus, which GtH tries to make her. *shrugs*




Sorry for the back to back posts but something occured to me as I hit the post button.  Couldn't the Lady of Pain in fact be Jazirian?  It certainly seems like something that one of the shapers of reality would do.  Her word in Sigil is law and is absolute.  As the paragon of Lawful Good wouldn't that mean that possibly in her mind the utmost form of Lawful Good would be Liberty and Freedom.  Even the good gods exert their will upon their followers for selfish reasons (D&D gods are not perfect) and that isn't freedom.  Maybe she became the Lady to provide a place where true freedom and liberty exist.  Sigil is the only place where a being can truly be free of the influence of the gods or any other controlling entity.  Seeing what she does to people who pray to her it seems strangely similar to the idea of Asmodeus getting power from non-believers.  Maybe both get weaker from the power of belief.

Things that make you go Hmmmmmm....


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## Shemeska (Feb 19, 2004)

Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> Sorry for the back to back posts but something occured to me as I hit the post button.  Couldn't the Lady of Pain in fact be Jazirian?  It certainly seems like something that one of the shapers of reality would do.  Her word in Sigil is law and is absolute.  As the paragon of Lawful Good wouldn't that mean that possibly in her mind the utmost form of Lawful Good would be Liberty and Freedom.  Even the good gods exert their will upon their followers for selfish reasons (D&D gods are not perfect) and that isn't freedom.  Maybe she became the Lady to provide a place where true freedom and liberty exist.  Sigil is the only place where a being can truly be free of the influence of the gods or any other controlling entity.  Seeing what she does to people who pray to her it seems strangely similar to the idea of Asmodeus getting power from non-believers.  Maybe both get weaker from the power of belief.
> 
> Things that make you go Hmmmmmm....




Jazirian is pretty distinct as a deity on Mount Celestia, and there's nothing about The Lady that screams Lawful Good. Or either lawful, or good even. I don't recall which layer it's on, but Jazirian has a domain upon Celestia as I recall.

That's something you could go with, I just don't see it as workable within the framework of knowledge we have concerning The Lady and the much more known figure of Jazirian (from the perspective of a planar Jazirian is more accessible certainly than The Lady, and has an entire planar race devoted to her in the Coatle (sp?))


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 19, 2004)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> The perspective of a planar Jazirian is more accessible certainly than The Lady, and has an entire planar race devoted to her in the Coatle




Hmmm... you know, the Lady DOES have an Aztec look to her.  Maybe she created the Coatle in the past just like Asmodeus creates Pit Fiends?


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## Beard in the Sky (Feb 19, 2004)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Sigil exists in vanilla D&D thanks to 3rd edition.




A little off topic, but does anyone use the City of Union described in the ELHB? I am just curious, because I teach in a small town called Union and everytime I even think about that name as an epic level city, I just about lose it.


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## Orius (Feb 19, 2004)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> I don't use the twin serpents of law idea however, I don't like it, nor do I feel it makes enough sense when compared with the other material out there. Jazirian doesn't even reside in Chronias the Illuminated Heaven which is typically cast as the diametric opposite of Nessus and Asmodeus, which GtH tries to make her. *shrugs*




I adapted the idea for my own cosmology.  Dumping the "all athiests go to Hell" bit from GtH, I too the Jazirian/Asmodeus angle and expanded it.  Originally, when the Outer Planes formed, there were the Elder Gods.  This was a time before the alignments fractured and became separate.  The ruler of the Elder Gods was a serpent entity called the Ouroboris.  However, eventually, the alignments separated, and this fractured the Ouroboris into 5 separate beings, each representing the 4 extreme alignments and neutrality.  So Jazirian and Asmodeus are the lawful good and lawful evil fragments of the Ouroboris.  I don't know what the two chaotic elements are, though I've toyed with the idea that the yuan-ti god Merrshaulk might be the chaotic evil fragment.  The neutral element is the Serpent, introduced in DVD, and later mentioned in MotP.  After this split, there was a great war among the Elder Gods.  I don't have a definitive number for them, for many of them ended up going off to the Far Realm or something.  However, in this cosmology, the Lady of Pain is one of the Elder Gods, as is the overgod that created my campaign world.


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## Calico_Jack73 (Feb 19, 2004)

Orius said:
			
		

> However, in this cosmology, the Lady of Pain is one of the Elder Gods, as is the overgod that created my campaign world.




Sounds good and explains why her will overrules that of the gods.  As one of the "Elder" or Prime gods then she has a stake in the design of the universe.  Kinda like in the movie "Dogma" the Universe exists because the will of the Lady is indomitable.  Maybe she was the Prime god of Balance while Asmodeus (his real form, not his Avatar) was the Prime Evil.  If you go with the idea that in the beginning all was Chaos then only Elder Gods of Law would be able to fashion reality out of the Chaos.  Hmmm... now I just need to figure out who I'd make the Prime Good being and I'll have a Cosmology.


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## Orius (Feb 20, 2004)

Calico_Jack73 said:
			
		

> Sounds good and explains why her will overrules that of the gods.  As one of the "Elder" or Prime gods then she has a stake in the design of the universe.  Kinda like in the movie "Dogma" the Universe exists because the will of the Lady is indomitable.  Maybe she was the Prime god of Balance while Asmodeus (his real form, not his Avatar) was the Prime Evil.  If you go with the idea that in the beginning all was Chaos then only Elder Gods of Law would be able to fashion reality out of the Chaos.  Hmmm... now I just need to figure out who I'd make the Prime Good being and I'll have a Cosmology.




Sort of.  Here's the section from my campaign history that applies:



> In the furthest and most distant past are the beginnings of Arropia. It was the time of the Elder Gods, deities wholly alien to the younger races. It was a time before the forces of good and evil and law and chaos battled across the universe. These gods created Arropia, and it was a time of darkness as strange races lived and fought over the world's surface. Eventually, new beings arose and fought the elder races and gods. Most of the elder beings were destroyed, but others were banished to the darknesses above and below.




Anyway, I never defined how many Elder Gods there were originally, or really what their purposes (if any) were.  this gives me the opportunity to create whatever I want.  There are only 3 of them that are actually named: the Ouroboris, the Lady, and Arropis (the creator of the campaign world).  The Ouroboris was the most powerful of them all, but its power was fragmented among five different beings.  I don't know exactly what role the Lady has in my cosmology.  I really included her because I started out with using the Wheel cosmology, and I decided her power to shut gods and other very powerful being out of Sigil comes from the fact that she is greater than and predates the gods.

Basically, the Elder Gods is sort of an excuse to cram Cthulhu like stuff in my campaign, or stuff like the Elder Elemental god, or whatever else like that I care to put in.  The "darkness below" is the Underdark, the reference is specifially meant to be races like the illithids and kuo-toa which are the among the eldest races on my world.  The "darkness above" probably refers to something like the Far Realm.


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## Chosen01 (Feb 25, 2004)

BUMP! I've been following this thread and getting ideas for my own D&D Armageddon so I hope it continues...

PS: Paka, since you've already gone out of the box it might interest you to check out the following fan made character write-up of various archfiends - Link1 - Link2.


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## Chosen01 (Mar 12, 2004)

I don't mean to resurrect this dead thread but I just thought those interested in a D&D armageddon might also want to check this out - Post-Sigil Planescape.


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## Paka (Mar 12, 2004)

Chosen01 said:
			
		

> I don't mean to resurrect this dead thread but I just thought those interested in a D&D armageddon might also want to check this out - Post-Sigil Planescape.




Thanks for the link.  The guy who wrote this, Zak and I are old buddies.  Nice.

I was going to give this thread a bump when I had done some work on a Prestige Class or two.  No worries.


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## Greybar (Mar 12, 2004)

Now, of course the various fiends will never be able to agree on the long term ownership of each plane.  Each will want more than his rival.  The planes largely dominated but for rebellious resistance, the old power games return.  Soon fiend fights fiend again, and the rebels find that if they are willing to compromise their principles they can more easily turn one against another.

The cycle slowly returns again...


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## Chosen01 (Mar 12, 2004)

Here's some more cool ideas for a D&D Armageddon  


			
				Shemeska the Marauder said:
			
		

> *imagines the outer planes scattered in malformed hunks of their former selves, floating within an overlaying void of Astral scattered with chunks of godisles, random souls and petitioners drawing to the disrupting plane chunks and merging with them, everything healing and reforming at an abysmally slow rate and not reforming in the exact same way, and in the center of it all, the Astral barrier of Sigil burning and untouched amid it all*
> 
> *slow evil grin* The idea has some fun promise if you pull it off in a suitable dramatic fashion.
> 
> ...





			
				Incenjucar said:
			
		

> For those of you who have the book on the inner planes (particularly the 'evolution' entry), or are otherwise aware that the prime and the outer planes are increasingly invading the once-pure inner planes, or for anyone otherwise interested... I've been thinking.
> 
> What if the inner planes.. whether on their own, or by way of the forces that dwell there... or perhaps some effort from the rilmani, or any number of other possibilities.. started to 'strike back'.
> 
> ...


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## drnuncheon (Mar 12, 2004)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> Well, I've already said my bit a number of posts back. But I think the main point that Toras should have stressed is that no invading force, be they demon, devil, Yugoloth, celestial or true deity can enter Sigil without The Lady allowing it. Portal key or not, a portal doesn't open if by The Lady's design or whim it simply doesn't open.
> 
> Yes it's one of the hard core points regarding Sigil, but it's one that has to be taken into consideration unless you've got a disgustingly well conceived notion of getting around it, somehow.




Bah. It's a myth.  Berks like you have bought into it, and that makes it stronger, but it's still just a myth.

If everything happens by the Lady's will then she never would have needed to destroy Aoskar - he never would have been able to gain any power in Sigil.

If everything happens by the Lady's will then the...can't recall the name of it, the artifact that was going to open up all the gates to the lower planes...that never would have worked.

No - the Lady's like one of those plate-spinners you see in the taverns.  It's a balancing act.  Every so often the plate falls off and she has to catch it and start it spinning again.  But the right nudge, the right push, and it all comes down.

Sigil's _so_ much more interesting that way.

J


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## Shemeska (Mar 12, 2004)

drnuncheon said:
			
		

> If everything happens by the Lady's will then the...can't recall the name of it, the artifact that was going to open up all the gates to the lower planes...that never would have worked.




*grin* That would be The Shadow Sorcelled Key, supposedly capable of opening up all of the lower planar portals within the (then) Prime Ward of Sigil (now the Lower Ward).

Sadly the artifact is lost or destroyed, and aside from legends that sprang up in the aftermath of the Clueless Rebellion there's no evidence to suggest that it ever existed.

... however... that hasn't stopped me from using it in my own campaign, and I've not actually restricted it to just lower planar portals or even portals in that one ward. It functions something like a universal portal key, but the recovery of it and having it brought back into Sigil set off a Cagequake something fierce as presumably The Lady was not pleased at this act. In fact the three occasions that the key has been used it triggered a ward specific Cagequake. Those using the key recalled the person holding it back from Sigil and gave them a lesson in misuse of power. They sent them back into Sigil missing an arm and an eye (that took nearly a month to regenerate).

I've also given the key a decent background IMC, such as who made it, why, etc:

A bit of fluff text from that:

“It was the tool of our rebellion. Packed like sheep, penned, sequestered and oppressed, it was given to us unasked. But we took it anyways. ‘If you have but the will to use it’ we were told, and greedily, headstrong and filled with righteous zeal we took it. ‘The choice is yours, do as thou wilt.’ Well, some gifts are best never taken!! The prime ward was razed! Fiends roamed the streets, slaughtering each other and any others they found. Many of our own died even as the hated Sodkillers and the Incanterium battled the swelling darkness we had unleashed upon the City and were slaughtered. It was ended only by the actions of Her Serenity… and our gift was taken back from our hands by he who granted it to us. As before, so again.”

“The unity of rings fulfilled. From prime to prime it was a tool of death. A tool of chaos incarnate, a tool of brutal repression. Both extremes personified, reflected only in the hand of the one who had but to accept their gift, and turn it, unlocking the darkness within, and without.”

“Our greed and our hatred prompted us to accept it. A means of salvation or revenge so terrible, but gift or not, ‘the choice was ours’ and we alone are to blame for the path of hells fury it has woven through the eons. The Shadow Sorcelled Key is a gift, it always is, and a tool, but one that uses the gifted…”


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## Shemeska (Mar 12, 2004)

Chosen01 said:
			
		

> Here's some more cool ideas for a D&D Armageddon




Well I guess I should feel honored for you posting up some of my material that I put up on the WotC boards a couple of days ago. 

*takes a bow*

(Shemeska here, Shemeska the Marauder there)


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## Jeremy Ackerman-Yost (Mar 12, 2004)

Chosen01 said:
			
		

> I don't mean to resurrect this dead thread but I just thought those interested in a D&D armageddon might also want to check this out - Post-Sigil Planescape.



That gives me all kinds of fun ideas for the factions.  If other people have brought these ideas up, my apologies.  This thread was long enough ago that I don't have a solid grasp on what came before. 

His entropes would be an excellent splinter faction of the Doomguard.

Imagine the Harmonium, the Anarchists, and the Indeps working together to run an underground resistance in Sigil.  The Harmonium needs the infiltration skills and cell structure of the Anarchists and the contacts of the indeps to have any chance of retaking the city, and even to survive.  The Anarchists & Indeps need the Harmonium's muscle.  Getting the job done without killing each other would be a campaign by itself.

Some of the Ciphers would be totally losing their cool, as the Cadence would be all out of whack.

The Athar would probably be gloating at the Powers being cowed by the fiends, which wouldn't make them terribly popular.  On the other hand, some of them might end up having to work with some of the Powers, which could be entertaining.


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## Ferox4 (Jan 15, 2019)

*Bump*

One of my favorite threads from the way back. Parse, ridicule, elaborate.


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## Orius (Jan 16, 2019)

Hello, thread necromancy!


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