# Magical Arrows



## Doom3524 (Aug 3, 2005)

Questions about magical arrows.  

1)  I read in the DMG that magical arrows are destroyed on impact.  Lets say you put returning on an arrow, will that be destroyed as well?  If so, whats the point of returning?

1a) If returning arrows do not get destroyed on impact, can you then stack other abilities on top of it to make the magical arrows not be destroyed?

2)  Arrows can have spells cast on them, so if I cast Heal or Harm on an arrow, then the arrow hits its target, which will happen first, the damage from the arrow, or the healing/damage from the spell?

any help on these would be great, thanks!!!


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## moritheil (Aug 3, 2005)

Doom3524 said:
			
		

> Questions about magical arrows.
> 
> 1) I read in the DMG that magical arrows are destroyed on impact. Lets say you put returning on an arrow, will that be destroyed as well? If so, whats the point of returning?
> 
> ...




1.  For thrown weapons (axes, throwing knives, shurikens) which are not destroyed on impact.

2.  Uh . . . I'm positive there's a misunderstanding somewhere there.  I think you need to have a special feat or class feature in order to attach a spell to an arrow, and I've certainly never heard of someone casting heal on an arrow and shooting someone else with it.  Someone else know of this ability?


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## Doom3524 (Aug 3, 2005)

I may have mis-spoken.  I didnt mean to actually cast a spell on an arrow while in battle.  I meant to create the arrow based on the creating magical items chart.  You can create items with spells embedded in them.


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## RamYaz (Aug 3, 2005)

Doom3524 said:
			
		

> Questions about magical arrows.
> 
> 1)  I read in the DMG that magical arrows are destroyed on impact.  Lets say you put returning on an arrow, will that be destroyed as well?  If so, whats the point of returning?
> 
> ...




Returning: This special ability can only be placed on *a weapon that can be thrown*. A returning weapon flies through the air back to the creature that threw it.


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## Infiniti2000 (Aug 3, 2005)

1. For the returning property to function on an arrow, you would need to throw the arrow.

2. If you create a custom magical item such as putting heal on the arrow, it works however you want it to work.  It's your item.  I'm sure there's an arrow of curing or some such item in perhaps the Book of Exalted Deeds or the Complete Divine.  Otherwise, just make it up.


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## Doom3524 (Aug 3, 2005)

So, I guess that means my Returning Arrows of Heal and Harm are out of the question!  I could make some thrown weapons with those properties though.  The Arrows would have been cheaper


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## moritheil (Aug 3, 2005)

Doom3524 said:
			
		

> So, I guess that means my Returning Arrows of Heal and Harm are out of the question! I could make some thrown weapons with those properties though. The Arrows would have been cheaper




Knowing the designers, that's probably deliberate.

Isn't it a bit odd to have a Heal effect tied to a weapon, though?  I mean, aside from when you need to eradicate undead . . .


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## Doom3524 (Aug 3, 2005)

Yes, it is definitley odd   But, when you dont have a cleric in the party, and no way to heal other than potions, you come up with interesting ideas.  I figured, I was a deepwood sniper of a high level, so I could hit about anything, any time.  Why not get an arrow and waste the round's shot to heal a front line fighter almost completely when they are down to 15 hp from over 100?  Then there was the added benefit of hitting the undead enemies for major damage.


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## PrinceZane (Aug 3, 2005)

Doom3524 said:
			
		

> Yes, it is definitley odd   But, when you dont have a cleric in the party, and no way to heal other than potions, you come up with interesting ideas.  I figured, I was a deepwood sniper of a high level, so I could hit about anything, any time.  Why not get an arrow and waste the round's shot to heal a front line fighter almost completely when they are down to 15 hp from over 100?  Then there was the added benefit of hitting the undead enemies for major damage.




Lets just hope you don't crit and kill him before you get the heal


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## Wrathamon (Aug 3, 2005)

you could make a blunt subdual type arrow for that heal stuff.

How much does an Arrow of Harm cost?


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## IcyCool (Aug 3, 2005)

Infiniti2000 said:
			
		

> 1. For the returning property to function on an arrow, you would need to throw the arrow.




And even then, the ammunition is destroyed if you hit your target.  So if you are thinking about having throwing weapons enchanted, be sure to avoid shuriken, as they are treated as ammunition.  Also, a returning weapon that casts heal on your ally will be horrendously expensive (even if the DM allows it), unless it is a one-shot item, and even then, it'll be pricey.



			
				Infiniti2000 said:
			
		

> 2. If you create a custom magical item such as putting heal on the arrow, it works however you want it to work.  It's your item.  I'm sure there's an arrow of curing or some such item in perhaps the Book of Exalted Deeds or the Complete Divine.  Otherwise, just make it up.




The arrow of cure light wounds is in Sword and Fist, I think.  And unless the item description states that the arrow doesn't deal damage, it will hurt whoever you shoot before the magic goes off.  So make sure you don't kill your target and render the healing pointless.


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## Doom3524 (Aug 3, 2005)

Haha, yeah, critting first would be real bad LOL.

Cost......

Single use, use-activated = Spell level × caster level × 50 gp 

plus

Armor, shield, or weapon = Add cost of masterwork item 

equals.....

Spell Level (6) x caster level (11) x 50 gp = 3300 gp plus masterwork cost of 300gp equals 1 quiver of harm arrows at 3600 gold pieces.  If you want only one divide by 20 for 180 for 1 arrow.

Not too bad for that kind of damage.


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## Patryn of Elvenshae (Aug 3, 2005)

Err, no.  3,300gp + 7gp (masterwork arrow) is the cost for a *single arrow.*


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## Doom3524 (Aug 3, 2005)

Whenever you calculate price for magical arrows, it works on an entire quiver, not 1 arrow.  The price is based on the 20 arrows in a quiver.  

Anyways, who would spend that much on 1 arrow, no matter what it does???


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## Doom3524 (Aug 3, 2005)

The arrows I was going for (but now know I cannot do)......

Use-activated or continuous = Spell level (6) × caster level (11) × 2,000 gp  plus returning (+1 modifier for 2000 gp) plus 300 for masterwork = 134,300 gp for a quiver or 6715 for 1.  Now thats an amazing weapon.


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## Corlon (Aug 3, 2005)

I think you've ogt it a bit off.

When you attach a magical property to an arrow, ie an enhancement bonus (+1, +2, flaming, shocking burst, bane, blah blah blah) you buy it in a quiver of 50.

when you make a magic item, you make ONE item.


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## Doom3524 (Aug 3, 2005)

I have never seen it explained like that.  I was under the assumtion that it was the same.  Where do you find that?


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## dcollins (Aug 3, 2005)

Doom3524 said:
			
		

> I may have mis-spoken.  I didnt mean to actually cast a spell on an arrow while in battle.  I meant to create the arrow based on the creating magical items chart.  You can create items with spells embedded in them.




Allowing "new item" invention is actually a Variant in the DMG. Items which are not listed in the core rulebooks count effectively as House Rules. Therefore your question #2 requires permission from the DM, and also his or her specific creation of a rule to handle the what-happens-first issue.

http://superdan.net.home.comcast.net/dndfaq3.html


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## ARandomGod (Aug 4, 2005)

Corlon said:
			
		

> I think you've ogt it a bit off.
> 
> When you attach a magical property to an arrow, ie an enhancement bonus (+1, +2, flaming, shocking burst, bane, blah blah blah) you buy it in a quiver of 50.
> 
> when you make a magic item, you make ONE item.





True... but if you're making a new magic item in a batch of one, then you can also make that it's not destroyed. Easy. You're already making up the rules and pricing.

ALternitively you can make 50 and have them destroyed. Any arguements to the fact that you can only make one with those rules is easily countered by lowering the price to 1/50'th.

Of course, to be completely accurate you *should* only make one. And you shouldn't try to put any spells created that way on an arrow. Put them on the quiver, like they did with the scabbard of keen arrows. That way there's no issue of whether or not they return, the quiver cast the spell on whatever's taken out of it.


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## Doom3524 (Aug 4, 2005)

I like the quiver idea, that is perfect.  I have it cast heal on each arrow taken from it.  Brilliant!!!!


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## DanMcS (Aug 4, 2005)

Doom3524 said:
			
		

> I like the quiver idea, that is perfect.  I have it cast heal on each arrow taken from it.  Brilliant!!!!




Until you actually have to shoot an enemy.


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## Jdvn1 (Aug 4, 2005)

There is an arrow of _cure_ in Defenders of the Faith. It deals no damage, only cures.

It's 3.0, but it's the only source I know of that relates.


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## werk (Aug 4, 2005)

DanMcS said:
			
		

> Until you actually have to shoot an enemy.




I always have at least 2 quivers of arrows.  It's the mongol in me.


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## glass (Aug 4, 2005)

DanMcS said:
			
		

> Doom3524 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




...or until you see the price! 


glass.


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## Doom3524 (Aug 4, 2005)

Price is definitley the major issue.  I could just do what werk suggested and carry a second quiver.


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## Krelios (Aug 4, 2005)

Doom3524 said:
			
		

> Yes, it is definitley odd  But, when you dont have a cleric in the party, and no way to heal other than potions, you come up with interesting ideas. I figured, I was a deepwood sniper of a high level, so I could hit about anything, any time. Why not get an arrow and waste the round's shot to heal a front line fighter almost completely when they are down to 15 hp from over 100? Then there was the added benefit of hitting the undead enemies for major damage.



Just wanted to point out that you actually have to be able to _cast _Heal to make an item with it. That means a fairly high level cleric is already in your group? Not to mention the _Craft Magic Arms & Armor_ feat.


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## jabberwocky (Aug 4, 2005)

Doom3524 said:
			
		

> Price is definitley the major issue.  I could just do what werk suggested and carry a second quiver.





how does that fix the price issue? *confused*


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## Doom3524 (Aug 4, 2005)

Jabber:  Sorry, that is 2 different statements.  1) Price is the Major issue  2) I could carry 2 quivers to be able to attack as well as heal.

Krelios:  You also have shops you can go into to purchase things.  My DM is pretty good with that, and is flexible to whatever we come up with within reason.  I mean, I couldn't get a weapon of finger of death, or wail of the banshee.


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## Krelios (Aug 4, 2005)

Ack. Okay, I hate magic shops, but setting that aside; how can _you_ design an item and then buy it in a store? Are you talking about commissioning these and waiting for them to be crafted?


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## Doom3524 (Aug 4, 2005)

In game, I didnt design it, I just happen to ask the shopkeep if he has one, or if he can get one.  Depending on my DM's mood (and a lot of thinking about it), he says he has it, can get it, can make it, or they arent available.


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## werk (Aug 4, 2005)

Krelios said:
			
		

> Ack. Okay, I hate magic shops, but setting that aside; how can _you_ design an item and then buy it in a store? Are you talking about commissioning these and waiting for them to be crafted?




(also loathes magic shops)  The key here is that he is using player knowledge not character knowledge.  Odds are your character doesn't know about _heal_, creating items, anything like that.  Designing a custom magic item would be pretty difficult for any character other than a character that has the ability to do so.

If your DM allows it, your party is probably a steamroller by now anyway...give him some more rope.


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## Doom3524 (Aug 4, 2005)

werk said:
			
		

> The key here is that he is using player knowledge not character knowledge. Odds are your character doesn't know about _heal_, creating items, anything like that. Designing a custom magic item would be pretty difficult for any character other than a character that has the ability to do so.
> 
> If your DM allows it, your party is probably a steamroller by now anyway...give him some more rope.




So, what you are saying is that no other character knows about healing other than Divine casters??  And they don't know how items are created???  Thats insane.  Lets see, "That guy just touched me and I feel soooo much better, oh well, I will keep doing what I am doing and not worry about it"  I dont think so.  All characters know what other characters can do, especially in their party.  Like I said, we do not have a Cleric right now, but we do have a Paladin who can heal slightly.  SO, whats to stop my character from asking how he healed me and made me better, then taking that CHARACTER knowledge and going into the shop I got my magic +1 Mighty Composite bow (+3 Str) made for me and asking if he can make something, or has something that can duplicate the Paladins power, just more powerful and put it in an arrow?  That isnt possible????


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## Doom3524 (Aug 4, 2005)

Also, the party is far from a steamroller.  I am not asking for arrows of kill everything, just something to heal with since the Paladin is usually in the heat of battle.  Its no different than having a Cleric around.  It actually takes me out of the battle for a round here or there to heal.  That isnt a good thing.


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## werk (Aug 4, 2005)

Doom3524 said:
			
		

> So, what you are saying is that no other character knows about healing other than Divine casters??  And they don't know how items are created???  Thats insane.  Lets see, "That guy just touched me and I feel soooo much better, oh well, I will keep doing what I am doing and not worry about it"  I dont think so.



Big difference between healing and _heal_. 







> All characters know what other characters can do, especially in their party.  Like I said, we do not have a Cleric right now, but we do have a Paladin who can heal slightly.  SO, whats to stop my character from asking how he healed me and made me better, then taking that CHARACTER knowledge and going into the shop I got my magic +1 Mighty Composite bow (+3 Str) made for me and asking if he can make something, or has something that can duplicate the Paladins power, just more powerful and put it in an arrow?  That isnt possible????



  See how you explained the character's knowledge through roleplay?  That's what you should do.  Roleplay.  Your character can figure a lot of this out, in game, with direct influence from your DM...which will make things easier all the way around.


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## jabberwocky (Aug 4, 2005)

Doom3524 said:
			
		

> ... Its no different than having a Cleric around.  It actually takes me out of the battle for a round here or there to heal.  That isnt a good thing.




It's vastly better than having a cleric around - the cleric only has a limited # of heal spells per/day, and must deliver them by touch - if you can deliver an effectively unlimited # of heals per day, at range, mutliple times per round (because you have a 264,000 gp item), that's way better than what a cleric can do.


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## Doom3524 (Aug 4, 2005)

Werk:  That is how I would have done it anyways.  The characters have been together for as little while, so the knowledge is already there.  It just needs to be taken up at a shop.

Jabber: I can agree that it is better than a cleric, I wont argue that, but what I am saying is I am one of the biggest attackers since I can do it and pretty much not worry about retaliation (being so far away), so taking me out of the battle to heal hurts as much as it helps.  So maybe it gets a limit of times per day on the quiver.  That will lower the price and make it less unbalanced.


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## Rackhir (Aug 5, 2005)

This item sounds like what you are looking for.

The Quiver of Anariel
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/fr/lonedrowstats

Quiver of Anariel:Quivers of Anariel appear to be typical arrow containers capable of holding a score of arrows. However, the quivers automatically replenish themselves with standard or magical arrows, such that they are always full. Some quivers also create arrows made of special materials, such as adamantine, cold iron, or alchemical silver.

Once an arrow it taken from the quiver, it must be used within 1 round or it vanishes.

Moderate conjuration; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, magic weapon, minor creation; Price 28,000 gp (standard arrows), 29,000 gp (masterwork arrows), 32,000 gp (+1 arrows), 44,000 gp (+2 arrows), 64,000 gp (+3 arrows), 92,000 gp (+4 arrows), 128,000 gp (+5 arrows); Add an additional +6,000 gp for adamantine arrows, +4,005 gp for cold iron arrows, or +200 gp for alchemical silver arrows; Weight 1 lb.


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## Zandel (Aug 5, 2005)

> Originally Posted by *Doom3524*
> I can agree that it is better than a cleric, I wont argue that,






> Originally Posted by *Doom3524*
> Its no different than having a Cleric around.




 ........ Right ........


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## Doom3524 (Aug 5, 2005)

Zandel said:
			
		

> ........ Right ........




I like how you put those in the reverse order of how they were actually posted.  I said that at first it was no different then having a cleric.  Then through the discussion, I decided I was wrong and it was better than the cleric for some reasons.

Rackhir: That Quiver sounds pretty cool, I am imagining that the arrows can be +1-5 equivilent as well as just the plus arrows, right?


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## glass (Aug 5, 2005)

jabberwocky said:
			
		

> It's vastly better than having a cleric around - the cleric only has a limited # of heal spells per/day, and must deliver them by touch - if you can deliver an effectively unlimited # of heals per day, at range, mutliple times per round (because you have a 264,000 gp item), that's way better than what a cleric can do.




I dunno. Having the _epic_ cleric who made the item around might be jolly handy.


glass.


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## Rackhir (Aug 5, 2005)

Doom3524 said:
			
		

> Rackhir: That Quiver sounds pretty cool, I am imagining that the arrows can be +1-5 equivilent as well as just the plus arrows, right?




Actually I'd have to say no it couldn't, at least as designed. Remember that the non-Plus enhancements have different spell requirement to create (fireball, lightning bolt, melf's acid arrow etc...). The Plus enhancement with this quiver is basically just the item casting Greater Magic Weapon on each. You would probably need to tack on additional spell effects to permit other weapon enhancements.


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## Doom3524 (Aug 5, 2005)

My question is this.  With the knowledge of there being quivers out there that cast spells on arrows when they are drawn, could I make this.....

Quiver of Heal:  X times per day (whatever I come up with for X) this quiver allows the user to draw an Arrow of heal that causes no damage, and upon a successful hit casts the spell heal (as an 11th level caster) on the attack target.  If you miss on the attack you still lose that arrow for the day.

I think that sounds more balanced than what I had before, and it would be much less expensive.  Instead of 132,300 gp it would be, for say 10 uses, it would be approximately 49,500 gp (I think, not sure where to find that equation).


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## ARandomGod (Aug 5, 2005)

glass said:
			
		

> I dunno. Having the _epic_ cleric who made the item around might be jolly handy.
> 
> 
> glass.




'S true. And he could almost certainly do better than a simple "heal" spell.


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## Rackhir (Aug 5, 2005)

Doom3524 said:
			
		

> My question is this. With the knowledge of there being quivers out there that cast spells on arrows when they are drawn, could I make this.....
> 
> Quiver of Heal: X times per day (whatever I come up with for X) this quiver allows the user to draw an Arrow of heal that causes no damage, and upon a successful hit casts the spell heal (as an 11th level caster) on the attack target. If you miss on the attack you still lose that arrow for the day.
> 
> I think that sounds more balanced than what I had before, and it would be much less expensive. Instead of 132,300 gp it would be, for say 10 uses, it would be approximately 49,500 gp (I think, not sure where to find that equation).




http://srd.plush.org/magicItemsCreation.html 

This has as much information on creating magic items as you will find.

What you are talking about is something close to the spell Mass Heal a 9th lvl spell. I think you are talking about something really obscene for what the cost ought to be. 
9x17x1,800 or roughly 275,000 gp. Given the range increace it probably ought to be more than that.


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## Doom3524 (Aug 5, 2005)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> http://srd.plush.org/magicItemsCreation.html
> 
> This has as much information on creating magic items as you will find.
> 
> ...




I am not looking for Mass Heal, that is too much.  Just a simple Heal spell (level 6 spell. 11th level cater).  Mass Heal would be gross, and way unbalanced.


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## Rackhir (Aug 5, 2005)

Doom3524 said:
			
		

> I am not looking for Mass Heal, that is too much. Just a simple Heal spell (level 6 spell. 11th level cater). Mass Heal would be gross, and way unbalanced.




What I said, was that the effect you are trying to achieve *IS SIMILAR TO THE EFFECT OF* mass heal. So it probably ought to be priced similarly.


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## Doom3524 (Aug 5, 2005)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> What I said, was that the effect you are trying to achieve *IS SIMILAR TO THE EFFECT OF* mass heal. So it probably ought to be priced similarly.




How is it similar to Mass Heal?  I am only hitting one subject with a heal spell.  I am not understanding what you are getting at.


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## Rackhir (Aug 5, 2005)

Doom3524 said:
			
		

> How is it similar to Mass Heal? I am only hitting one subject with a heal spell. I am not understanding what you are getting at.




Heal only heals one person. You want to be able to heal multiple people (albeit at different times). Mass Heal will heal multiple people and do it at a range greater than heal. Yours will only heal one person at a time, but can do it at ranges FAR exceeding what Mass Heal (20' radius IIRC) and vastly farther than basic heal (touch) can. You are adding a substantial increase in usefulness to an already powerful spell. This should not come cheap.


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## werk (Aug 5, 2005)

Doom3524 said:
			
		

> Werk:  That is how I would have done it anyways.  The characters have been together for as little while, so the knowledge is already there.  It just needs to be taken up at a shop.
> 
> Jabber: I can agree that it is better than a cleric, I wont argue that, ...




Cool, glad to hear it!  (still hate the magic shops

I think you are substituting cleric for healing.  Clerics do a lot more than healing.  My recommendation would be a cleric hireling or have someone take leadership and get a cleric cohort.  (or find another player) Cleric is one class that I can rarely do without in a party.


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## Doom3524 (Aug 5, 2005)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> Heal only heals one person. You want to be able to heal multiple people (albeit at different times). Mass Heal will heal multiple people and do it at a range greater than heal. Yours will only heal one person at a time, but can do it at ranges FAR exceeding what Mass Heal (20' radius IIRC) and vastly farther than basic heal (touch) can. You are adding a substantial increase in usefulness to an already powerful spell. This should not come cheap.




I see what you are saying now.  I cant say I disagree with what you are saying about the usefullness, but luckily that isnt how it works.  It is still just a 6th level spell no matter what it goes on.


werk:  I love magic shops, mainly because (as you can probably tell by now) I am pretty inventive with things, and I know my character cant do them himself, but he wants to.  Shops are the way he can do things.  Most of the time I am turned down, but sometimes my DM sees the need for something I request and he grants it.  Like I said, he is pretty good with that (He turned down my goggles of true strike with unlimited useage LOL).  The reason for the lack of a cleric (which definitley do more than heal, but thats a major strong point) is because the only player we had that could play one well has stopped playing due to other things, some have tried, but all have failed miserably.  I could probably do it, but I like being the Archer/Fighter too much, I like to be the central part of the battle


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## Rackhir (Aug 5, 2005)

Doom3524 said:
			
		

> I see what you are saying now. I cant say I disagree with what you are saying about the usefullness, but luckily that isnt how it works. It is still just a 6th level spell no matter what it goes on.




Actually this is how its supposed to work if you read *all the text* about creating magic items. The formulas are supposed to only be guidelines, otherwise any weapons more powerful than +1 would have a constant true strike on them for only 10k.


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## ARandomGod (Aug 5, 2005)

Really what you *should* get is a cure light wounds quiver. That way you can cure at the same rate you can heal. In fact, that's an even better idea, have it so that the 'arrows' that come from the quiver are just bolts of positive energy, and they use whatever enhancement bonus is already on the bow... absorbing a +1 enhancement to add an additional +1 to the cure light wounds, being even more effective with an elemental enhancement, adding an additional +d6... etcetera. 

Then if you want you can spend your full attack action attempting to shoot the party fighter, healing him for the amount you could instead be harming the monster (better in cases with DR or resistances). The value of your healing in combat being in this case actually directly proportional to the value of your harming the enemy in combat.

It will, of course, have an additional affect of making you more effective at damaging some undead. It'd be an expensive quiver, but much more reasonably priced that one that produces arrows of 'heal'.


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## IcyCool (Aug 5, 2005)

Doom3524 said:
			
		

> I think that sounds more balanced than what I had before, and it would be much less expensive.  Instead of 132,300 gp it would be, for say 10 uses, it would be approximately 49,500 gp (I think, not sure where to find that equation).




If you go past 5 uses per day, you'll break the formula.  5+ uses per day is pretty much synonymous with unlimited use.  My suggestion would be to either go with the unlimited use cure light wounds version that ARandomGod was talking about, or change your heal quiver to 3/day.  Even then, I wouldn't allow it as a DM.

Your cost (for 3/day Heal) should look like this:

Use activated or continuous item formula = Spell level x Caster level x 2,000gp

6 x 11 x 2,000 = 132,000

Charges per day formula = Divide by (5 divided by charges per day)

132,000/(5/3) = 79,199.999999999

No space limitation formula = multiply entire cost by 2

79,199.999999 x 2 = 158,399.999

Round that up to 158,400.

I've been wrong with those formulas before, but that looks about right to me.  I'd say that the fact that you have to hit your target balances out with the fact that you can heal a target hundreds of feet away.

For reference, the cure light wounds quiver (by the above formulas) would run:

1 x 1 x 2,000 = 2,000gp

Double for no space limitation

2,000 x 2 = 4,000gp.

That seems a bit low to me for cure light wounds at will, but considering that both of these quivers simply bestow the spell on the arrow, you are limited by the number of arrows you have (and adding more powers to the quiver would make it much more expensive).


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## Doom3524 (Aug 5, 2005)

ARandomGod:  How would I make it pure positive energy?  How much would that add on to the price?  Also, I might go with Moderate instead of light, just a little better.


I still like my Goggles of True Strike, they were cool, but not allowed.....

1 x 1 x 2000 = 2000gp for a piece of equipment that continually grants you a +20 to attack and no worry about concealment.  Gee, I wonder why he didnt allow it!!


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## Majoru Oakheart (Aug 5, 2005)

Yes, remember the MOST important rule of the new magic item creation table.  The part at the end where you compare its cost to existing items and modify accordingly.  It is unwritten in here, but if there are no items that are like it at all, you basically just modify the price based on how powerful it is.

Since this item goes well beyond what the designers thought anyone would try to build the table makes a horribly wrong price.  Basically, IMHO, there should be no items that can cast heal at will without being an artifact.

I don't have the DMG in front of me to help me figure out what the price would be if I allowed it as a normal magic item, but someone wouldn't be able to afford it without a significant amount of level 20 gp value.  Over 100k for certain.


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## Doom3524 (Aug 5, 2005)

You can buy a wand of Heal, with 50 charges for 49,500 gp.  So, why not be able to put it on something else?  I think that making restrictions too tight completely removes player ingenuity, which is very important.  When I Dm I let my players come up with their own ideas on items, and I decide weather or not to allow it.  If it something that isnt going to automatically kill something, or make them basically a god I will allow it and remember they have it at future times and adjust encounters accordingly.  

On the other hand.....I would not allow a wand of Harm in any campaign.  I know that sounds oxymoronic, but Harm is a lot more unbalanced than heal.  If you are fighting something that cant heal itself, Harm can sometimes take down a CR 20 monster at a much lower level.


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## IcyCool (Aug 5, 2005)

Doom3524 said:
			
		

> You can buy a wand of Heal, with 50 charges for 49,500 gp.




No, you can't.



			
				DMG said:
			
		

> A wand is a thin baton that contains a single spell of 4th level or lower.


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## mvincent (Aug 5, 2005)

If you desire healing arrows, you could possibly use spell-storing arrows containing cure moderate wounds.

If you pad the tip (or take -4), they could do non-lethal damage, which would likely be healed by the arrow for free when it is healing regular damage.


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## Infiniti2000 (Aug 5, 2005)

mvincent said:
			
		

> If you pad the tip (or take -4), they could do non-lethal damage, which would likely be healed by the arrow for free when it is healing regular damage.



 I don't know about padding the tip, but you can't otherwise choose to do nonlethal with arrows.


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## Doom3524 (Aug 5, 2005)

So, you could put it on a rod or a staff or something the like.  Heck, you could buy 50 scrolls of heal for 82,500 gp if you really wanted to.


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## IcyCool (Aug 5, 2005)

Doom3524 said:
			
		

> So, you could put it on a rod or a staff or something the like.  Heck, you could buy 50 scrolls of heal for 82,500 gp if you really wanted to.




But you are asking to be able to heal 110 hp of damage with a single attack (if you are full attacking and get multiple attacks you could heal more, or still dish out your damage), from a potentially huge range.  And nothing about that strikes you as unbalanced or unreasonable?

At 1d8+1 per attack, it certainly sounds more reasonable to me.  At 2d8+3 per attack, it's starting to sound potent.  Beyond that ... *shrugs*.  It's ultimately up to you and your DM.  

Was there a rules question you wanted help on?


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## dcollins (Aug 5, 2005)

Can anyone post the price from that _arrow of curing_ in Defenders of the Faith? Can anyone confirm if it did/didn't get reprinted in Complete Divine?


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## Doom3524 (Aug 5, 2005)

IcyCool said:
			
		

> But you are asking to be able to heal 110 hp of damage with a single attack (if you are full attacking and get multiple attacks you could heal more, or still dish out your damage), from a potentially huge range. And nothing about that strikes you as unbalanced or unreasonable?
> 
> At 1d8+1 per attack, it certainly sounds more reasonable to me. At 2d8+3 per attack, it's starting to sound potent. Beyond that ... *shrugs*. It's ultimately up to you and your DM.
> 
> Was there a rules question you wanted help on?




I figure cure moderate would be more fair.  I can see if I can get that going.

The actual rules question was about if damage would happen before or after the healing.  Now there are other questions about if I would deal damage at all, or if I can make it pure positive energy, and all sorts of things.  

All arguing about if it should or should not exist aside, what would the best method of making a quiver of Cure Moderate be?  How would it work? and how much would it cost?


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## IcyCool (Aug 5, 2005)

Doom3524 said:
			
		

> The actual rules question was about if damage would happen before or after the healing.  Now there are other questions about if I would deal damage at all, or if I can make it pure positive energy, and all sorts of things.
> 
> All arguing about if it should or should not exist aside, what would the best method of making a quiver of Cure Moderate be?  How would it work? and how much would it cost?




As to the question about damage, yes, the damage would happen first.  Although if I'm not mistaken, the Arrows of Cure Light Wounds in Sword and Fist or Defenders of the Faith stated that the arrow was transformed into positive energy and didn't cause any damage.  As to the second two, unless your DM tells you to price new items, the DM should do it.


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## Goolpsy (Aug 5, 2005)

continuos items are always a problem... i wouldn't allow an item to be continous unless it has a normal tiem effect on it.  "Every arrow your draw is affected by cure something".. thats not a cure spell.. neither is it a permency spell. If it should exist.. it would be something like a permenent Hallow spell on the Specific item, yet still it should be enhanced as it allows a greater effect... i would go as far as calling it a level 7 spell? allowing 1st level spells, 8 for 2nd and 9th for 3rd.. or something.. that way it can't get out of hand... another issue is even a wand of unlimited cure minor, is unlimited heal after each fight (does take a little time) but its a cheap item 
(theoreticly).  Some things jsut aren't supposed to be unlimited.. 

Another thing u might write into item you want to create amoung the usable 5-10 times per day thing... make is Use activated, but allow for 1 shoot a round..  its like making it a move action or something to enchant  ONE arrow and you will still get to fire it in the same round...  (with the effect disappearing the next round if it isn't used)

Btw, it wouldb't be unbalancing to let an acher heal a bit.. first of all.. alot of the persons Wealth is used on that item.. and is NOT used on improving anything else, 2ndly though it does allow versatility being able to change from damager to healer.. a round of healing is potentially a lost combat action...  even if you heal 50 damage... the BBEG you're fighting might easily hand out 2-3 times that amount of damage in a round.  3rdly he will never get as good at healing as a cleric... **AT HEALING!** the cleric is one big bad fighting machine healing everyone cursing everything letting you live in the desert.. helping you to survive in the caves or in the sea.. There is Soooo much more to a cleric than just healing....


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## Doom3524 (Aug 5, 2005)

Goolpsy said:
			
		

> Another thing u might write into item you want to create amoung the usable 5-10 times per day thing... make is Use activated, but allow for 1 shoot a round.. its like making it a move action or something to enchant ONE arrow and you will still get to fire it in the same round... (with the effect disappearing the next round if it isn't used)




Thats kind of what I figured.  I wouldnt shoot 3 arrows in a round if I am healing.  I was thinking more along the lines of some sort of need for concentration as well as a normal attack roll.  You WANT to hit with that arrow more than any other shot you can make.  I know you want to hit with every shot, but this one could mean life or death for a party member,



			
				Goolpsy said:
			
		

> Btw, it wouldb't be unbalancing to let an acher heal a bit.. first of all.. alot of the persons Wealth is used on that item.. and is NOT used on improving anything else, 2ndly though it does allow versatility being able to change from damager to healer.. a round of healing is potentially a lost combat action... even if you heal 50 damage... the BBEG you're fighting might easily hand out 2-3 times that amount of damage in a round. 3rdly he will never get as good at healing as a cleric... **AT HEALING!** the cleric is one big bad fighting machine healing everyone cursing everything letting you live in the desert.. helping you to survive in the caves or in the sea.. There is Soooo much more to a cleric than just healing....




Thats what I have been saying.  We could be fighting something that can deal so much more damage in one hit than I can even wish to heal in one shot, so taking me out of battle is a big thing, especially as a deepwood sniper.


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## Treebranch (Aug 8, 2005)

Masters of the Wild said:
			
		

> Specific Weapons
> The following specific weapons are usually preconstructed
> with exactly the qualities described here.
> Arrow of Cure Light Wounds: When this otherwise
> ...




Yes, it's from the 3.0 Masters of the Wild. Yes, I realize the item creation rules are outdated. However, this does show that it's not a totally outrageous idea, and backs up the notion that arrows made like this are made singly, not in batches of 50.

Using the above formulas, I get that a Heal arrow would cost 6607 gp, assuming an 11th level caster.

And, looking at the Quiver of Anariel, I've figured out that the cost is determined by 28000 + 4*[cost of making 50 of a given arrow] + 2*[material cost for 50 arrows as per DMG].

So, as far as I can tell, a Quiver of Anariel(Cure Light Wounds) would run you...

28000 + 4*[50 * 107] = 49,400 gp.

A little cheap IMO, but that's how the formula works out. Keep in mind I'm pricing an individual arrow based on the Masters of the Wild versions...

Now, just for kicks, here's the Quiver of Anariel(Heal):

28000 + 4*[50 * 6607] = 1,349,400 gp.

Yep! That right there is what you call an artifact. As a DM, I would be damn sure never to let the players ever ever get one. In fact, I doubt something like this could even exist without being in the ownership of a deity or something like that.

Anyways, I'm done rambling. There's an analysis for you.


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## shadowgriffen (Aug 8, 2005)

The healing arrows your looking for are in the Master's of the Wild hand book
Arrow of cure light wounds  107gp
Arrow of cure moderate wounds  607gp
Arrow or cure serious wounds   1,507gp
Arrow of cure critical wounds   2,807gp
They dont deal any damage they only heal the target they hit. as for the prices these 
prices are before the 3.0 and 3.5 editions of d&d    ( hope this helps a bit )


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## dcollins (Aug 8, 2005)

Thanks for the citations, guys. So it looks like extrapolating from those numbers (as required by the DMG), assuming the DM allows this new item (I wouldn't), and assuming it being left out of 3.5 doesn't indicate specific rejection by current designers (I would tend to lean that way)...

It indicates curing arrows are priced at (spell level) x (caster level) x 100 gp + 7 gp for masterwork arrow. So an _arrow of heal_ by those rules would be priced at 6 x 11 x 100 + 7 = 6,607 gp each. And precedent that it deals no damage for the hit.


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## ARandomGod (Aug 8, 2005)

Doom3524 said:
			
		

> ARandomGod:  How would I make it pure positive energy?  How much would that add on to the price?  Also, I might go with Moderate instead of light, just a little better.




It wouldn't add to the price at all, assuming that was all 'flavor' text. In fact, it would marginally lower the value, in that you still need arrows, the arrows are converted, and they're unrecoverable. If you've got the money, moderate would be better, but for pure cost nothing beats cure light. 



			
				Doom3524 said:
			
		

> I still like my Goggles of True Strike, they were cool, but not allowed.....
> 
> 1 x 1 x 2000 = 2000gp for a piece of equipment that continually grants you a +20 to attack and no worry about concealment.  Gee, I wonder why he didnt allow it!!




Of course, they mainly don't allow it because it's horribly unbalanced. A large part of the balance of that spell is that you have to cast it yourself! (Note: If you've previously played so that it could be cast on other people, sorry I brought this detail to light. You can try to ignore it if you want to...)


Then there are justifications:
You have to use a different formulae. There's already a formulae for adding a + to hit to a weapon, and that's not it! ^_^ If you use THAT formulae, and add on extra for the ability to hit concealment ... then you'd be spending enough. (too much, really.)


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## Zweihänder (Aug 8, 2005)

Doom3524 said:
			
		

> Whenever you calculate price for magical arrows, it works on an entire quiver, not 1 arrow. The price is based on the 20 arrows in a quiver.
> 
> Anyways, who would spend that much on 1 arrow, no matter what it does???




A friend of mine paid 100k for a single arrow in a high-powered game.  Of course, that arrow had the effect of a nuclear missile, allowing him to beat an Elder Prismatic Dragon when he was level 3, but...

^_^


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## IcyCool (Aug 8, 2005)

Zweihänder said:
			
		

> A friend of mine paid 100k for a single arrow in a high-powered game.  Of course, that arrow had the effect of a nuclear missile, allowing him to beat an Elder Prismatic Dragon when he was level 3, but...
> 
> ^_^




How did he get 100k at level 3?


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## Rackhir (Aug 8, 2005)

IcyCool said:
			
		

> How did he get 100k at level 3?



 It's called Monty Haul (old School) or munchkin/powergamer nowdays.


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## Zweihänder (Aug 9, 2005)

4 person party, each of them chipped in 25k (which was their inheritence or something... I wasn't part of the game, so I'm not clear on all the details).

Also, the DM house-ruled out the "1 level gained per encounter" thing, so he went from, like, level 3 to level 15 after that one encounter.  It was crazy.


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