# FANTASY GROUNDS Virtual Tabletop's D&D License!



## JesterOC (Apr 7, 2015)

It is pretty expensive, but I am glad the option is there.


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## Fildrigar (Apr 7, 2015)

Wow. That seemed to come out of nowhere. I've never used Fantasy Grounds, I'm going to have to investigate.


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## bedir than (Apr 7, 2015)

I like the ala carte nature for players. It means the get in price for a single class character is only 20% the price of the PHB. That's rather handy. As a DM it looks like costs add up quickly, which is the classic curse of DMing.


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## Tormyr (Apr 7, 2015)

It looks like at least the PHB and MM content is there.  If everyone at a table chipped in for the Ultimate pack, that would take care of the table.

EDIT: Thank goodness they did not announce this last Wednesday.


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## BrockBallingdark (Apr 7, 2015)

I had to make sure this post wasn't from April 1st!  Well this is a start, though I don't use virtual gaming apps, hoping to see what else comes down the pipe.


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## martinlochsen (Apr 7, 2015)

That is EXTREMELY expensive!


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## Askaval30 (Apr 7, 2015)

my first thread in years gets closed immediately due to Morrus beating me by three minutes! 

Still, this is fantastic news for those of us with groups scattered to the four winds like myself, happy days! unexpected news is rarely good, but in this case the surprise was a nice one indeed... 

(less so for my wallet, but sacrifices need to be made)


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## Mouseferatu (Apr 7, 2015)

Okay, this may be a dumb question, but...

Are these "packs" solely for use on the FG virtual tabletop? Or are these the e-tools we've been looking for, usable as their own thing for a face-to-face campaign as well?


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## halfling rogue (Apr 7, 2015)

Is it just me or is the website down for anyone else?


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## Abbasax (Apr 7, 2015)

Tormyr said:


> It looks like at least the PHB and MM content is there.  If everyone at a table chipped in for the Ultimate pack, that would take care of the table.
> 
> EDIT: Thank goodness they did not announce this last Wednesday.




From what I could tell, the Ultimate licence doesn't include the class and monster packs, just the D&D Basic Rules. (I may have missed it though)


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## Tormyr (Apr 7, 2015)

Abbasax said:


> From what I could tell, the Ultimate licence doesn't include the class and monster packs, just the D&D Basic Rules. (I may have missed it though)




No, looks like you are right and I got too excited.  Bummer.  $184-$300 is too high a barrier for entry for me as a DM.


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## TDarien (Apr 7, 2015)

Abbasax said:


> From what I could tell, the Ultimate licence doesn't include the class and monster packs, just the D&D Basic Rules. (I may have missed it though)




Actually, from what I understand, the Ultimate license only includes the _ruleset_, and not even the basic rules.  In other words it can handle the rules for the game but doesn't have any class options or rules text built in -- you'd have to create it yourself, or buy the 2.99 basic rules, the complete core class back, or individual class packs and the character customization pack (feats, equipment, etc)


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## Abbasax (Apr 7, 2015)

Tormyr said:


> No, looks like you are right and I got too excited.  Bummer.  $184-$300 is too high a barrier for entry for me as a DM.




Ah, well. I was hoping you'd seen something that I'd missed, heh.


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## God (Apr 7, 2015)

That's a lot of filthy lucre, considering you can get all three dead-tree rulebook for about $100 on Amazon. But I guess in the digital age this kind of pricing scheme makes sense?


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## amerigoV (Apr 7, 2015)

That is good news for the D&Ders. While there is always a debate between using FG (for $) or Roll20 (free for most its functions), as a Savage Worlds guy I do have to say the the FG people have been very good at supporting the license games.


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## Serrrg (Apr 7, 2015)

This is indeed VERY expensive... and I am wondering, why??


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## TDarien (Apr 7, 2015)

You can also get a license on a subscription model.  $4/month for GM $10/Month for Ultimate, if you're so inclined.  You'd still need to buy the rules though,.


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## DMZ2112 (Apr 7, 2015)

Love D&D5.

Was not a Fantasy Grounds customer before... am still not a Fantasy Grounds customer.

But hey, maybe you have a thing for tools that make simple tasks exponentially more difficult and time consuming, and are also an oil magnate.  If that is the case I wish you the best!  What great news this is for you.

Pesonally I will stick with my Google Hangout, real paper books, and actual plastic dice.


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## Dausuul (Apr 7, 2015)

Hmm. I am interested, but that's a lot of money to fork over. I'll have to try out the demo mode and see if it's worth it.


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## Hollow Man (Apr 7, 2015)

I wonder where the races are...the class packs, the character customization pack, or they're somehow embedded in the ruleset that you get with purchase of the Fantasy Grounds license.

-HM


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## Paraxis (Apr 7, 2015)

I think I will stick with Roll20 and be happy and keep a lot of my money.


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## neobolts (Apr 7, 2015)

From what I can tell, the most straightforward "bulk" option for a group is Ultimate License $149 + D&D Complete Core Class Pack $49.99* + D&D Complete Core Monster Pack $49.99 = $248.98.

Ultimate states that "One License Covers All Players In a Group" on the features checklist. So if you have a static group, I think this is everything you would ever need. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

*includes the customization pack (PHB races, backgrounds, feats, etc).


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## Gundan Shadeslinger (Apr 7, 2015)

I would say the pricing and layout will change because I don't see many people forking over that kind of money to be honest. 

Does this have a server where you can advertise games to run and games to play in like rolld20?


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## mattcolville (Apr 7, 2015)

Great news! Fantasy Grounds is pretty cool, though not without its own weirdness. Having all the D&D5 data parsed for me, with tokens and everything is a huge win.


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## Hand of Evil (Apr 7, 2015)

be interested in seeing it in play


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## Blackwarder (Apr 7, 2015)

The adventure pack looks sweet, but the pricing scheme is very confusing...

Warder


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## Nylanfs (Apr 7, 2015)

Okay to clear up some errors or assumptions here. The Ultimate license ONLY allows people that do not have a license for Fantasy Grounds connect to you to play (ie the DM gets the Ultimate and the players don't have to buy it) it also includes quite a few game systems that support the game mechanics (minus fluff info).

ONLY the GM has to buy the expansion packs for 5e, once the players connect to the DM everything is shared with the players in encrypted form and they can only access the info while connected to the GM's game.


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## Nylanfs (Apr 7, 2015)

This page they put up may help.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/buyFG/DungeonsAndDragons.html


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## smiteworks (Apr 7, 2015)

Hey guys. I thought I'd post a new link that covers things a bit better.

You can play for free if your DM has the Ultimate license (one-time of $149) or subscription ($9.99 a month) or each person can buy a license (one time $39) or $3.99/mo. All of these options include a basic D&D 5E ruleset that supports the mechanics but doesn't have any licensed content, data or artwork. 

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/buyFG/DungeonsAndDragons.html

For just $2.99, you get the content from the basic rules plus a cool new skin with graphics inspired by the newest edition.  You can always enter all your own monsters, NPCs, load your maps, etc., but now you can buy the modules with all this stuff pre-loaded at the retail price. We did try to lower the barrier to entry for many people by also splitting packs up in a few chunks. We also tried to compile a bunch of D&D portraits and tokens to include with most of the packs to give you more bang for your buck.

Currently, the Lost Mine of Phandelver is the only adventure available. Hoard of the Dragon Queen and The Rise of Tiamat are in the final stages of internal review before they get sent through the review process at Wizards of the Coast.  Within each adventure, you'll find the maps pre-linked to each room's description that you can share with your players, DM only notes and links to important NPCs, treasure parcels and encounters. For encounters, these are all assigned tokens that are pre-placed on the map in their starting location. Enter a room, click the link to the encounter and press a button to place them all and auto-roll their initiative. Within the ruleset, you'll also be able to drag and drop attacks from NPCs to PCs and vice versa.


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## Kramodlog (Apr 7, 2015)

This is out of the blue. 

I'm confused, is the Lost Mines of Phandelver a PDFs or/and e-tools?

Edit: I guess this means the books are available as PDFs now? I expected cheaper.


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## Zaukrie (Apr 7, 2015)

You can play free, if your DM pays 150 dollars? Uh, that's not free. In the future,  will it take 6 months after a book is released to get adventures?


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## BoldItalic (Apr 7, 2015)

Well, I downloaded the demo to see what it does, but it doesn't seem to do anything so I'm not sure what it's for. Colour me distant.


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## Mithreinmaethor (Apr 7, 2015)

I have a feeling that some people are coming to this thread believing that these are E-tools for 5e ala Dungeons and Dragons Insider etc.

These are not the E-tools you are looking for.  This is an online tabletop service that has got a license to produce 5e content for use with their online tabletop.

In case there is any confusion.


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## Dire Bare (Apr 7, 2015)

Zaukrie said:


> You can play free, if your DM pays 150 dollars? Uh, that's not free. In the future,  will it take 6 months after a book is released to get adventures?




The Fantasy Grounds license is brand new, it's not like FG has been working on this since 5E's launch.

And, yes, for the package you reference, for the player it is free, for the DM it is not. They are not trying to "trick" you, their pricing is pretty straightforward.

_EDIT: I was a bit harsh . . ._


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## Kramodlog (Apr 7, 2015)

Mithreinmaethor said:


> I have a feeling that some people are coming to this thread believing that these are E-tools for 5e ala Dungeons and Dragons Insider etc.
> 
> These are not the E-tools you are looking for.  This is an online tabletop service that has got a license to produce 5e content for use with their online tabletop.
> 
> In case there is any confusion.




So no character builder? If I buy the Druid pack, what will it do exactly?


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## smiteworks (Apr 7, 2015)

The pricing for the FG Ultimate license is indeed $149. We added a subscription option for the same thing at $9.99 a month that we believe should be comparable with Mentor level access of Roll20. For a 1 month sub at $9.99 and the D&D Basic Rules and Theme pack at $2.99, you can try it out for a month with your group for a relatively cheap price. The 1-month sub comes with a bunch of monster tokens and some maps that should also help offset the cost, should you choose not to stay with FG beyond that time. We put a lot of attention and effort into making these modules as top notch as we could, though, so we hope you'll stick with it after you've gotten the hang of it. You can always enter in your own content and maps or copy from the books. If you decide you would rather have them pre-loaded, there is at least an option for that.


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## Astrosicebear (Apr 7, 2015)

Once FG implments a paypal "TIP" button, Ill bite and be a professional DM.  Until then this seems way off the pricepoint... I mean a sub for FG 5E is now more expensive than buying both yearly adventures AND all 3 core books... EVERY YEAR.


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## callinostros (Apr 7, 2015)

Turning a profit is fine...but I think it is priced out of many people's budget.


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## Zaukrie (Apr 7, 2015)

Where the heck did I say it should be free? Wow, talk about arguing against a point I did not make at all. Wow. As for how fast the contents come out, how is that not a valid question? How do you know when they started working on it? You should maybe not make assumptions about posters and their intent.


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## smiteworks (Apr 7, 2015)

goldomark said:


> So no character builder? If I buy the Druid pack, what will it do exactly?




The Druid Pack has the content from the book and abilities that are accessed at various levels. You drag the druid class link to your character sheet from your library and it will add a level of the class and all abilities that unlock at that level, plus add the new hit die. You can then drag over new spells that you learn at each level to your character sheet and these will be automatically keyed in with the various attacks or effects, so that if you cast a spell at a group of NPCs that causes a DC 16 reflex save for half, it will automatically roll their saves and then when you apply damage it will apply half or full damage. 

Here is an image with the spell portion of the character sheet shown. 
View attachment 67786

Product details:
This Module Includes

18 additional fantasy character portraits taken from various official D&D sources
The class description from the Player's Handbook for the druid class
Details and features from levels 1-20 for a druid character
Automatic addition of new class features when you drag the druid class link to your character's level summary
Drag and drop features that can be referenced during play
Access the entire druid spell list and drag them to your character sheet for access during play

It also includes D&D portraits that are appropriate for Druid characters.

You will most likely want the PC Customization Pack + the Druid Pack to get started, or the DD Basic Rules + The Druid Pack. Those other items include lists of equipment that can be dragged and dropped, races, etc.


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## Zaukrie (Apr 7, 2015)

I will be checking this out when I get home. Since I am moving,  virtual might be my future.


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## smiteworks (Apr 7, 2015)

Once we catch up with the backlog of items that we still need to finish (Hoard of the Dragon Queen, The Rise of Tiamat, The DMG, Princes of the Apocalypse), then we should start releasing them at the same time that the books hit the public.


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## TDarien (Apr 7, 2015)

Astrosicebear said:


> Once FG implments a paypal "TIP" button, Ill bite and be a professional DM.  Until then this seems way off the pricepoint... I mean a sub for FG 5E is now more expensive than buying both yearly adventures AND all 3 core books... EVERY YEAR.




Fantasy Grounds is not a subscription, it is a one-time purchase.


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## Gundan Shadeslinger (Apr 7, 2015)

smiteworks said:


> The Druid Pack has the content from the book and abilities that are accessed at various levels. You drag the druid class link to your character sheet from your library and it will add a level of the class and all abilities that unlock at that level, plus add the new hit die. You can then drag over new spells that you learn at each level to your character sheet and these will be automatically keyed in with the various attacks or effects, so that if you cast a spell at a group of NPCs that causes a DC 16 reflex save for half, it will automatically roll their saves and then when you apply damage it will apply half or full damage.
> 
> Here is an image with the spell portion of the character sheet shown.
> View attachment 67786
> ...




It's pretty and all but it's still very dear.

Why would I want to pay these prices when I could drop 150 for the three corebooks, which I keep forever, and can play on rolld20 for free?


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## Zaukrie (Apr 7, 2015)

Thanks for the reply. It seems pricey, but I will be checking it out. Either way, good luck. D&D needs this, imo.


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## smiteworks (Apr 7, 2015)

Yes, it is an either/or option. You either subscribe or you buy a one-time purchase.


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## Gecko85 (Apr 7, 2015)

Ok, can someone who uses FG answer this for me?

We currently use Roll20 for our IRL game, to display the maps (with dynamic lighting). One person connects via laptop and moves the tokens to open up new parts of the map. All combat is done on the "real" tabletop.

So, with FG, if you go with the free version, can you load in a module and run it in demo mode to do what we're currently doing with Roll20? I'm looking at the license comparison on this page, but it's not completely clear: http://www.fantasygrounds.com/buyFG/


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## ShadoWWW (Apr 7, 2015)

Wow! I am so excited! Fantasy Grounds is the best VT!


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## Astrosicebear (Apr 7, 2015)

TDarien said:


> Fantasy Grounds is not a subscription, it is a one-time purchase.




https://www.fantasygrounds.com/store/ 

It has both options, as pointed out above.


And dont get me wrong, I love the work and the product... but I am concerned the price is a little high and wont grow the market.

I would love to see Smiteworks' liscence deal and know the innards, but that wont happen. I fear for the OGL at this point.  If anything, I would like to see WOTC ditch trying their own stuff and just let Smiteworks run the tools.


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## Umbran (Apr 7, 2015)

TDarien said:


> Fantasy Grounds is not a subscription, it is a one-time purchase.




They have subscription licencing right there:  GM/Player $3.99/month.  Ultimate $10/month.

Edit:  never mind, others beat me to it


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## Umbran (Apr 7, 2015)

Okay, so, WotC is playing things close to the chest.  This must have been in the works for some time, for FG to have that much content ready now, but nary a peep about it.

Which means, we cannot say at all we know the plan, if they can keep things this quiet.  Surprises can come on any day.  Which is kind of cool, actually


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## smiteworks (Apr 7, 2015)

You will need one of the non-free licenses of Fantasy Grounds to use any of these modules. Generally, the players don't need to buy anything that the DM has purchased. They can access it while connected to the DM if the DM chooses to share those with players. If players want to access the content while offline from the DM (like to build characters), then they would also need to buy the packs.


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## feldrol (Apr 7, 2015)

[MENTION=6789257]Gecko85[/MENTION] Fantasy Grounds does not have dynamic lighting. It has a fog of war the DM remove by hand.

Just to try a clarification here. Fantasy Grounds is a Virtual TableTop software. I bought it 10 years ago when I moved away from my group and have been using it once a week since then to play at distance. It allows you to share maps with the players. The players have their character sheet in the software. It has a combat tracker that is very good, and allows quick fights.
What I like in this software:
A character drag and drop his attack from his character sheet on a monster token on the map. The software rolls the dice and tell you if it is a hit or a miss. He can then drag and drop the damages on the token and the software will roll the damage and decrease the monster hp automatically.
Player can make characteristics or skill check with double clicks, ...
What this D&D5 licence will change for me (I am running Hotdq):
Before, I had to prepare the stats for NPCs, monsters, find tokens, the maps by inputing data in the software. If you are perfectionist, it can take quite some time.
With that licence, players will be able to drag and drop their spells from a library to their character sheets, the monsters will be usable by me without preparation, with their tokens and everything already placed on the map. So less preparation time and quality material.
It is expensive, but I think this software was the best buy I ever did regarding price/time played. (around 1500 hours in 10 years)

Plus you can play other games with it.


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## Zaran (Apr 7, 2015)

smiteworks said:


> You will need one of the non-free licenses of Fantasy Grounds to use any of these modules. Generally, the players don't need to buy anything that the DM has purchased. They can access it while connected to the DM if the DM chooses to share those with players. If players want to access the content while offline from the DM (like to build characters), then they would also need to buy the packs.




Ok, so if I buy the 150 dollar license, I can make all my players' characters for them with all the features?  But I cannot use any monsters from the monster manual unless I purchase the packs?  I can make my own monsters and use my own pictures on their tokens and use my own maps?


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## smiteworks (Apr 7, 2015)

Zaran said:


> Ok, so if I buy the 150 dollar license, I can make all my players' characters for them with all the features?  But I cannot use any monsters from the monster manual unless I purchase the packs?  I can make my own monsters and use my own pictures on their tokens and use my own maps?




You can make characters for your players in advance or they can log onto your game and make their characters while connected. It would be recommended to also buy the D&D Basic Rules and Theme pack in addition to the FG license because it includes the basic races and the 4 basic classes. It will give you a good idea of the difference between building a character from a library module or building it with a plain character sheet and no data pre-loaded. You can then create all your own monsters and drag in your own maps and images. You can put your tokens in your tokens\host or tokens\shared folders.


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## TDarien (Apr 7, 2015)

Zaran said:


> Ok, so if I buy the 150 dollar license, I can make all my players' characters for them with all the features?  But I cannot use any monsters from the monster manual unless I purchase the packs?  I can make my own monsters and use my own pictures on their tokens and use my own maps?




With just the $150 license, you would need to add all the character content manually.  If you bought the complete character pack, you could create their characters, or your players could create them while connected to your game.  If the players bought the complete character pack or an individual class pack, they could create their character offline.


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## Torgaard (Apr 7, 2015)

Gecko85 said:


> Ok, can someone who uses FG answer this for me?
> 
> We currently use Roll20 for our IRL game, to display the maps (with dynamic lighting). One person connects via laptop and moves the tokens to open up new parts of the map. All combat is done on the "real" tabletop.
> 
> So, with FG, if you go with the free version, can you load in a module and run it in demo mode to do what we're currently doing with Roll20? I'm looking at the license comparison on this page, but it's not completely clear: http://www.fantasygrounds.com/buyFG/




One of the guys from SmiteWorks can confirm this (or answer it better), but I believe you can do just that. The demo mode had a demo module last time I used it (couple years back), thought I don't know that there was a 5E demo module. There was a 4E demo module (I think). But you don't necessarily need a full on module. You can just whip up a character, make a monster (and maybe duplicate it a few times), slap a map in the "Images" folder, put a grid down, and off ya go!

Note that I believe that in demo mode you can have a DM host (with the demo), but only 1 demo player can connect at a time.

Fantasy Grounds does not have dynamic lighting (yet), but it does have manual "mask". The DM puts a mask on the map that is slightly opaque for him (but the map itself is blank or sorta hidden for players), and he just manually draws around an area he wants to unlock for them, so that they can see that area. It's basically a manual fog-of-war kind of thing. Works pretty good.

The real power behind Fantasy Ground (in my opinion) is maybe something most people wouldn't think of, because it's not quite as sexy as sharing a cool map with fog of war and all that. It's the "Combat Tracker". It's very powerful, very versatile. It can just about keep track of dang near everything, and *automate* alot of it. Initiative, rounds, HP's, AC, attacks for monsters, etc. 

Example: let's say you cast Bane on an enemy. The Combat Tracker will let you create an "Effect" that you can drop on the monster (who you've simply dragged n' dropped onto the Combat Tracker and you're ready to go), and it'll automatically apply the requisite penalties to that monsters rolls when his turn comes up and he makes attacks. And all the player had to do was target the monster, click a button, and it's done. It'll also remember who cast it on him, and it'll drop it off him when it expires. Multiply that by the other half dozen buffs or debuffs players and monsters throw around the table, and the dizzying permutations thereof, and it makes managing all that stuff a breeze. It's pretty cool!


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## Gecko85 (Apr 7, 2015)

feldrol said:


> @_*Gecko85*_ Fantasy Grounds does not have dynamic lighting. It has a fog of war the DM remove by hand.




Ah, ok. I suppose that would be OK. Is it easy to remove the fog of war? I do like dynamic lighting, but I hate having to build it on every map by hand...


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## jshauber (Apr 7, 2015)

I see a lot of folks griping about the price of the 5e content for FG.  Besides the hours of use you will get from it, don't for get it is "Officially Licensed" material and thus WotC probably has some say in what it can be priced at.

Be thankful the guys at Smiteworks were able to obtain the licensing and put in all the work to make it available to the online community at all.

As an FG user I have been waiting for 5e content and I realize how much time/effort went into programming all the content that is included.  Seems a small price to pay for hours of gaming enjoyment with friends from all over the country/world....


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## jshauber (Apr 7, 2015)

Gecko85 said:


> Ah, ok. I suppose that would be OK. Is it easy to remove the fog of war? I do like dynamic lighting, but I hate having to build it on every map by hand...




The fog of war in FG is a mask that covers the entire map.  as the players move the GM simply unmasks the portions the players can now see.  You can either do it as a box or you can hold control and drag the mouse to custom unmask areas.


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## RSKennan (Apr 7, 2015)

I'm just a long time Fantasy Grounds user (pretty much since it launched), and not a fanboy per se. I see things that I wish the software would improve on, but I'm confident that they will as time goes on. Still I wanted to chime in on this thread. 

Roll20 vs Fantasy Grounds is a matter of false economy first, and completeness of the feature set second.

with Roll20, the base use of the software is "free", but they offer a subscription for extra storage and features like dynamic lighting. 

With Fantasy Grounds, the best bet is a one-time purchase that you never have to make again, where you get as much storage as you have on your own computer. There is no dynamic lighting yet, but I've seen indications that it's coming. Instead, we have a good old fashioned fog of war mask that you delete progressively. 

With Roll20, you get "character sheets" that don't interact with what's going on in the game. 

With Fantasy Grounds you get character sheets that interact with the game. When you attack, you target a creature, roll a check or force a save by activating the ability on your character sheet, and the software remembers whether you hit, crit, or the enemy made their saves. Next you apply damage or effects, automatically increased for a crit. Conditions like blinded deafened, etc, are automatically modeled mechanically in the game, so that the creature will roll the appropriate checks at disadvantage, etc. Effects wear off when they are supposed to. 

I could go on and on, but I won't belabor the point. 

Fantasy Grounds comes into its own as game preparation aid for playing online, or as a map solution/GM aid at a live table game. For players it offers a lot of automation that allows them to focus on being in the game world rather than having to look everything up as often as can happen live. 

The new modules are part of a system of Extensions and Modules that let you run a growing variety of rules systems, and apply your own house rules to the way FG automates things. Extensions generally change the scripting or add new features, while modules include things like content and randomized tables, in world calendars, etc. 

The key is, you can create extensions and modules yourself, or benefit from the ones created in the community. 

As for the price of the new 5e modules, you can avoid all of it with a bit of work. The cost then becomes your time. You can do what the rest of us have been doing and "Parse" the rules into usable modules that contain everything Smiteworks is offering and whatever else you want to add. Using the parsing tools, I've been adding my campaign-specific content in the form of a growing rulebook that my players can access.  

I'm thrilled that Smiteworks is offering the work done for free, but I personally already have it done. I've been using the content I worked on for a while now. This doesn't change anything for me immediately, but it does promise that people who would rather just pay for the content might try out Fantasy Grounds. It's great in that sense. 

So those of you on the fence, keep thinking about it. Watch some Youtube videos. There are even actual plays online.  Smiteworks is made up of mostly coders, and not PR people. They sometimes don't have the time to devote to  pointing out how awesome the software is, and why you really do need it if you play online. 

Thanks, 

-Someone who wants more people to game with.


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## jshauber (Apr 7, 2015)

Something you might want to consider if you are on the fence about FG is the upcoming FG-CON next weekend.

There are a wide range of events being run including some 5e events that still have space.  Check it, see how it works and ask questions of the GMs they are all very good and willing to help show anyone how FG works and give pointers to overcome the learning process.

http://www.fg-con.com/events/

Also, the FG forum is really helpful for answering specific questions about any of the rules sets for FG.


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## Gecko85 (Apr 7, 2015)

RSKennan said:


> I'm just a long time Fantasy Grounds user (pretty much since it launched), and not a fanboy per se. I see things that I wish the software would improve on, but I'm confident that they will as time goes on. Still I wanted to chime in on this thread.




Thanks for your write-up. I'm most excited about the prospect of not having to build the published adventures manually, like I do in Roll20. It took me many hours to build-out Lost Mines. I would gladly have paid $19.99 to have it done for me. I'm hoping they get Princes of the Apocalypse done soon, as that's likely what I'm running next.

Like I said in a previous post, we would use it at a live table as our map, rather than playing online. So, all the combat stuff, while cool, is something we wouldn't use. (I have played fully online, including a full online playthrough of Lost Mines, so if I do that again it sounds like FG will be a nice way to go.)


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## neobolts (Apr 7, 2015)

smiteworks said:


> You can make characters for your players in advance or they can log onto your game and make their characters while connected. It would be recommended to also buy the D&D Basic Rules and Theme pack in addition to the FG license because it includes the basic races and the 4 basic classes. It will give you a good idea of the difference between building a character from a library module or building it with a plain character sheet and no data pre-loaded. You can then create all your own monsters and drag in your own maps and images. You can put your tokens in your tokens\host or tokens\shared folders.




First off, thanks for stopping in and answers questions here. It says a lot about your operation. 

With the DMG not yet implemented, how do things like treasure and traps work? For example, if you were running a custom campaign rather than Lost Mine of Phandelver (which has its own treasure and traps built in).


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## RSKennan (Apr 7, 2015)

Gecko85 said:


> Thanks for your write-up. I'm most excited about the prospect of not having to build the published adventures manually, like I do in Roll20. It took me many hours to build-out Lost Mines. I would gladly have paid $19.99 to have it done for me. I'm hoping they get Princes of the Apocalypse done soon, as that's likely what I'm running next.
> 
> Like I said in a previous post, we would use it at a live table as our map, rather than playing online. So, all the combat stuff, while cool, is something we wouldn't use. (I have played fully online, including a full online playthrough of Lost Mines, so if I do that again it sounds like FG will be a nice way to go.)




One thing you can do live, as a GM is track the combat from the NPC side using FG. You can roll enemy attacks against multiple foes with one click, and track PC HP and conditions that way. 

Your call of course. One thing I did forget in my last post- Fantasy Grounds is a *lot* prettier.


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## Gundan Shadeslinger (Apr 7, 2015)

smiteworks said:


> You can make characters for your players in advance or they can log onto your game and make their characters while connected. It would be recommended to also buy the D&D Basic Rules and Theme pack in addition to the FG license because it includes the basic races and the 4 basic classes. It will give you a good idea of the difference between building a character from a library module or building it with a plain character sheet and no data pre-loaded. You can then create all your own monsters and drag in your own maps and images. You can put your tokens in your tokens\host or tokens\shared folders.




How much would it cost me to have everything? Monthly and one time fee.


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## smiteworks (Apr 7, 2015)

neobolts said:


> First off, thanks for stopping in and answers questions here. It says a lot about your operation.
> 
> With the DMG not yet implemented, how do things like treasure and traps work? For example, if you were running a custom campaign rather than Lost Mine of Phandelver (which has its own treasure and traps built in).




You can create your own treasures in advance and they will be stored in a window full of Treasure Parcels. Most DM's start with a map, build a story entry and then link the story to the map and the treasures, npcs and encounters to the story. If you need a magic item that isn't yet available, you can create that item or derive it from an existing item and then drag that into your treasure parcel along with whatever coinage you have. Once the players discover or earn that treasure, you typically drag it to the Player's Party Sheet and then divvy it out with a click of a button.

We already have a bunch of the DMG done, we just want to put in some new code and functionality for it before we submit it to Wizards of the Coast for review. For instance, there are tons and tons of random tables and magic items and those are all ready. We are really hoping that we can come up with a cool option to allow for some fully automated treasure building steps, compilation of magic weapons with a base item + magical properties and stuff like that. I'm not sure yet if we'll be able to do that prior to launch or if we'll have to look at releasing a straight port first, followed by some additional enhancements after the fact.


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## Nylanfs (Apr 7, 2015)

One note on FG con, Smiteworks upgrades all the full licenses to Ultimate for the con so nobody has to buy to play at the con. Just install the demo and get registered for a game at the fg-con website.


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## jeffknight (Apr 7, 2015)

jshauber said:


> I see a lot of folks griping about the price of the 5e content for FG.  Besides the hours of use you will get from it, don't for get it is "Officially Licensed" material and thus WotC probably has some say in what it can be priced at.
> 
> Be thankful the guys at Smiteworks were able to obtain the licensing and put in all the work to make it available to the online community at all.
> 
> As an FG user I have been waiting for 5e content and I realize how much time/effort went into programming all the content that is included.  Seems a small price to pay for hours of gaming enjoyment with friends from all over the country/world....




Ditto. I have been spending 2 hours or so a week (wish I could have spent more, but that was all I had) parsing the player handbook to add into the game and I just finished the classes last month. There is a massive amount of work that has to be done to get stuff into the game from scratch. I gladly paid the $$ for the modules this afternoon. It really comes down to "How much is your time worth?" For me, it was a no-brainer. I got stuck on the Ranger parsing for 2 weeks before I found a typo in my own typing that was causing the module to not compile.


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## scythe0925 (Apr 7, 2015)

I believe I remember seeing this program at GenCon last year, and stating that I was transitioning to 5e. Now that this is a thing, I hope they will be at GenCon this year for me to see first hand (especially since I will be moving to CO soon). I will make sure to bring funds to purchase it on site if it is awesome


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## ronaldsf (Apr 7, 2015)

The Lost Mine of Phandelver pack looks pretty cool.


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## smiteworks (Apr 7, 2015)

scythe0925 said:


> I believe I remember seeing this program at GenCon last year, and stating that I was transitioning to 5e. Now that this is a thing, I hope they will be at GenCon this year for me to see first hand (especially since I will be moving to CO soon). I will make sure to bring funds to purchase it on site if it is awesome




We will be at Gen Con again this year and will most definitely have D&D up and running for people to play around with.


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## Gundan Shadeslinger (Apr 7, 2015)

How much will it cost me to have everything? 

Can I use any of it offline?


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## Reynard (Apr 7, 2015)

I have been toying with the idea of using a VTT to run 5E since I do not have time to arrange another weekly RL game. What is the best way to give Fantasy grounds a try and see if it will serve my needs?


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## Kramodlog (Apr 7, 2015)

I wonder if this is the big announcement Perkins was talking about. It certainly sound like the "its goign to be something" he was talking about.


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## famousringo (Apr 7, 2015)

This isn't the right product for me.

But I take it as welcome news that WotC is working with third party software developers to license their IP. Perhaps the next licensed dev will have a product more to my liking.


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## smiteworks (Apr 7, 2015)

Reynard said:


> I have been toying with the idea of using a VTT to run 5E since I do not have time to arrange another weekly RL game. What is the best way to give Fantasy grounds a try and see if it will serve my needs?




There is a virtual convention launching soon (April 17-19) where you can play for free in a variety of games. You just need the demo license to join in. You might also lurk on the Fantasy Grounds forums and ask to sit in on a game to see how things play from the player side of the table. 
link: http://www.fg-con.com

If you want to see it in full action as a DM, then the best option is probably to get a 1 month sub ($3.99) or Ultimate sub ($9.99) and pick up the D&D Basic Rules pack. From there you can decide if you want to pick up any others.


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## feldrol (Apr 7, 2015)

[MENTION=6789257]Gecko85[/MENTION] : With one click you apply fog of war everywhere on the map. Then to remove it, you draw a rectangle or a freeform.

 [MENTION=467]Reynard[/MENTION] : To see if this product is for you, sign on for an adventure at FGCon later this month. It is free and you will be able to play as a player. You will see how the programm runs for players.


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## RSKennan (Apr 7, 2015)

Reynard, I can also run a quick one on one with you using the demo license (which limits us to one player) and Skype. It would be cool to hang out with you again.


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## pming (Apr 7, 2015)

Hiya.

 Oh cruel fates! Why do you conspire against my pocketbook!?! 

  Yes, the price did give me pause...then I thought about how easy I find using FG is. I've never really used it to play yet, even though I've owned it for...man...must be 6 years or so. I did "run" it once with my brother, for about 20 minutes (all the time we had). It was easy to use and easy on the eyes.

  That said...I get to go do my taxes tomorrow morning and my return should be more than enough for the upgrade to Ultimate and the MM & PHB stuff. Yay! 

  For all of you on the fence; give the demo a try. If you like that, plunk down a month or two subscription and give it a serious run through. If you like it even more, get the perma-license (best deal if you plan on running a consistent game month to month to month for who knows how long).

  Oh, and FG is just outright pretty!  Easy on the eyes and I get a much better feeling of "sitting around a table" than I do with the other VTT's I've tinkered with (MapTool, Roll20, Battlegrounds, kLoOgE [or whatever it's called], and some others I can't remember). With those, I always felt like I was "role playing on the computer"...but the look and feel of FG doesn't do that for some reason. 

^_^

Paul L. Ming


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## Sunseeker (Apr 7, 2015)

I suspect this will be a good purchase for folks who have steady groups who are willing to "pay to play" and may or may not own some or any of the 5E books already.  I would like if they would put together a "5th edition only" package license deal, I'm not really interested in the 3rd ruleset, pathfinder ruleset and support for 4th (but no content for it hurr hurr).  In fact just breaking up those editions into independent packages would be a nice approach.  

It's not really the tool I'm looking for though.  $40 for a character builder (with a bunch of other tools I don't need) is steep enough, but then another $50 for the MM and $50 for the PHB content, after already buying the books, puts this WAY beyond any price I'd pay for it.  I'd pay $50 for digital versions of those content combined and included with the program, but I'm not really interested in re-buying my books at full price in digital format.  And I'm sure as heck that all but 1 of my players can't even _afford_ the base product.  

Hopefully WOTC will develop some kind of stand-alone software that is more directed at player-side gameplay for a more reasonable price.


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## Random Catchphrase (Apr 7, 2015)

[MENTION=87795]smiteworks[/MENTION] Is there a way to auto up/down scale adventures?


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## turkeygiant (Apr 7, 2015)

The price point is just too steep for me, I don't need the map building/digital play space tools, really all I am looking for is a character creator. And I don't think I could convince my friends to share, we all want to be able to make characters whenever we want, not just when linked to one person.

I'm still holding out for a Herolab license.


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## smiteworks (Apr 7, 2015)

Random Catchphrase said:


> @_*smiteworks*_ Is there a way to auto up/down scale adventures?




We link story entries to encounters that have a list of monsters, like
5 - Trolls
1 - Owlbear
2 - Orcs

Whenever you build an encounter, it will show X copies of that token underneath each entry and then you can drag those to a map to set the pre-placement. If you want to scale it down, you just decrease the number appearing and it removes the tokens from the end of the list. If you want to add more, you just increase the number appearing and place the new tokens -- or drag in a new NPC or monster to the list and do the same. 

The one thing it doesn't do at the moment is automatically recalculate the new CR and XP value for those encounters. We preset all these based on their recommended levels, but you'd need to adjust up or down from there. We were talking about adding an auto-calculate CR and XP button to the interface in the near future though.

A picture is worth a thousand words:
View attachment 67788


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## turkeygiant (Apr 7, 2015)

Smiteworks, are you the exclusive license holder of D&D 5e digital tools, like right now you are the first, but does your licence state that you and only you can create official 5e digital tools?

*Mod Note: * Please see my post below.  ~Umbran


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## IgnatiusJ.Reilly (Apr 7, 2015)

Fantasy Grounds looks neat and I'm not really worried about the cost, unless one has difficulty finding a game after footing the bill. It's pretty easy to find a game on Roll 20 for free. I did notice they've got FG forums, but no 'Looking for a Group' function as on Roll 20. Something similar to this on Fantasy Grounds would do much allay any similar fears and give players and DMs an idea of what experience they might expect after the buy-in.


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## redrick (Apr 7, 2015)

One of the points of confusion I'm seeing here is that people think the $150 purchase (or $10/month subscription) is to pay for the D&D content. While I don't use FFG (we're on Roll20), from what I gather, the license or subscription covers the use of their software package, which is ultimately designed to support internet-based rpg-ing. So, once you pay for the FFG license, you can use it to play any RPG you want. If you want to use the built-in content packages for those RPG's, you would have to buy that as add-on content, but I also imagine the system has generic system-agnostic support that you can use to play any game, with dice rolls, tokens and map uploads.

So the price tag for D&D for the complete D&D set is $50. Looking at the $150 price tag is a bit like looking at a video game and saying, "oh, that costs $400, because I need to buy a Playstation 4 to play it."

As a point of comparison, I pay $10 a month for a Roll20 subscription that allows me to use some dynamic lighting features, upload extra maps, and write my own javascript programs to add on more complex functionality. (Allowing me to do things like resource tracking with macros, simplify session prep and roll hitdice for monsters as I place their tokens on the table.) There is an auto-calculating 5e character sheet, but it includes no game "content", so I have to key in all of my own monsters, spell descriptions, etc. The benefit, for me, is that the point of entry is free, so there is a huge pool of players from which I can recruit for my game. And I was able to DM my game for 4 or 5 months before ultimately deciding that the subscription was worth it. But I can totally see the draw to use FFG.


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## Umbran (Apr 7, 2015)

turkeygiant said:


> Smiteworks, are you the exclusive license holder of D&D 5e digital tools, like right now you are the first, but does your licence state that you and only you can create official 5e digital tools?





Let's us all be aware that we are not entitled to details of licensing agreements, or other business information.  Let us not put them on the spot on such matters too much, please and thank you.


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## MadBeard (Apr 7, 2015)

I tried almost all of virtual tabletops out there and I found that Fantasy grounds is very expensive and not very intuitive and simple to use. I found many free solution that are much better than FG.
For maybe 5 years I use TTopRPG virtual tabletop because my party is scattered around.
I used it for d&d 3.5, pathfinder, d&d 4ed, savage worlds and now d&d 5ed. It's free and very simple to use. We used it with skype for VoIP communication and hamachi for VPN.
And you don't need any licence for systems. You can play almost any system with it. Even FATE rolls are implemented.

If anyone wants to try it and could use some help, just send me PM and I would gladly help. Even provide you with macroes for all character rolls for 5th.


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## Zaukrie (Apr 7, 2015)

But if I don't own a PS4.....or FG license, that is part of the entry cost. So, to play full D&D, 9t is 150, plus 50, plus 20 every adventure, on top of owning the same content in paper form. I know some won't like this opinion,  but that's a lot of money.


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## doctorhook (Apr 7, 2015)

Haven't used FG, mainly because of the cost, but I've heard good things. Overall, this sounds like a great move for gamers and especially for WotC--fifteen years, and now they _finally_ have digital tools that aren't trending for embarrassment! (Rhetorically, what took 'em so long to just license it to somebody with a functioning and commercial successful product? )

My only complaint is that I've already thrown my digital D&D dollars behind Roll20. Still happy with that decision, but I suppose FG could merit a look.


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## Osgood (Apr 7, 2015)

Good for those who use a virtual tabletop, but it's pretty useless to me. I was hoping for a tablet app to use around a physical table, similar to what Dungeonscape/Morningstar was supposed to be.


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## lkj (Apr 7, 2015)

Osgood said:


> Good for those who use a virtual tabletop, but it's pretty useless to me. I was hoping for a tablet app to use around a physical table, similar to what Dungeonscape/Morningstar was supposed to be.




I'm going to guess that something like this is in the works as well. Whether it's a tablet app, a desktop thing, or both-- who knows. Seems to me that FG serves a particular need. So does HeroLab or its equivalent. 

But I guess we'll see.

(And while Umbran is totally right that Smiteworks has no obligation to share license terms and perhaps has incentives or requirements not to do so-- Man, it's hard to resist asking).

AD


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## Blackwarder (Apr 7, 2015)

Does it run on Mac? All my players have macs...

Warder


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## Mithreinmaethor (Apr 7, 2015)

Morrus said:


> You can view the page here.




Could you perhaps note in the threads title that this is NOT E-TOOLS.

Thanks


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## smiteworks (Apr 7, 2015)

We are not at liberty to share any information about the license terms. 

As for looking for groups, we set up individual forums for different game systems and most people post there and occasionally on the FG calendar page (or both).


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## smiteworks (Apr 7, 2015)

Blackwarder said:


> Does it run on Mac? All my players have macs...
> 
> Warder




It does run on Mac and Linux under WINE. The easiest solution for most Mac users is to purchase the license for FG from Steam for Mac and then purchase all the DLC directly from our store. It's like a one click install at that point. When you launch it from Steam on your Mac, you'll go to your settings and link it with your Fantasy Grounds forum username and password so it can retrieve any DLC purchases you've made. The only issue we had with Mac is that the DLC bought directly in Steam doesn't auto-download. Those are not flagged as Mac compatible on Steam for that reason, but if you accidentally buy them anyway -- just shoot a note to support@fantasygrounds.com and we can add it to your FG forum account.


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## turkeygiant (Apr 7, 2015)

Umbran said:


> Let's us all be aware that we are not entitled to details of licensing agreements, or other business information.  Let us not put them on the spot on such matters too much, please and thank you.




It is a very relevant question though, if they are going to be the only company with a D&D license that would be major incentive to me to buy their product (I want digital tools), if they are just the first of many, I am going to have to wait though to see what the market looks like because their current offering doesn't line up very well with my needs, I could make it work but it is a lot of money to spend if it isn't my last option to consider.


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## AverageCitizen (Apr 7, 2015)

RSKennan said:


> With Roll20, you get "character sheets" that don't interact with what's going on in the game.




When was the last time you used roll20? And that false economy stuff is BS: I have used roll20 for two campaigns and only paid because I felt like I should.

I am a little worried that wizards is gonna get aggressive towards roll20 now, which could kill my games I have going now, at least for a while.


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## Mithreinmaethor (Apr 7, 2015)

turkeygiant said:


> It is a very relevant question though, if they are going to be the only company with a D&D license that would be major incentive to me to buy their product (I want digital tools), if they are just the first of many, I am going to have to wait though to see what the market looks like because their current offering doesn't line up very well with my needs, I could make it work but it is a lot of money to spend if it isn't my last option to consider.




_*These are NOT E-tools.*_

These are products created for use on Fantasy Grounds roleplaying Tabletop granted by a contract from Wizards of the Coast.


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## turkeygiant (Apr 7, 2015)

Mithreinmaethor said:


> _*These are NOT E-tools.*_
> 
> These are products created for use on Fantasy Grounds roleplaying Tabletop.




Can you create characters and populate monsters with stats included? that's close enough to e-tools for me.


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## RSKennan (Apr 7, 2015)

AverageCitizen said:


> When was the last time you used roll20? And that false economy stuff is BS: I have used roll20 for two campaigns and only paid because I felt like I should.
> 
> I am a little worried that wizards is gonna get aggressive towards roll20 now, which could kill my games I have going now, at least for a while.




I use Roll20 every week for a gurps game with a group that won't pay for FG. The game goes much more smoothly in Fantasy Grounds. i stand by my comments. When was the last time you used Fantasy Grounds?


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## vandaexpress (Apr 7, 2015)

On the one hand, this makes me feel like a total moron for all the time I've invested into Roll20 (manually parsing/entering spells, monster stats, etc)... And all the money I've spent on premium tokens/maps/mentor subscription for that platform.

On the other hand, this is going to save me SO much time and looks amazing. I'll miss dynamic lighting but the benefits of eliminating manual data entry more than offset this, especially since they're building out the modules. 

I'm buying it all. Right now. This will cut down on my prep time so much and save my poor wrists from early onset of carpal tunnels with all the data entry.

Way to go, Wizards. Can't wait to dive into this. And yes, the official license etc IS all the reason I need to convert from Roll20 to FG.

So excited.

Also, not that this should surprise ANYONE, but ya gotta love how this isn't mentioned anywhere on WOTC's website for D&D. #justwotcthings


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## RSKennan (Apr 7, 2015)

Incidentally, roll20 should be fine. It doesn't offer any rules support, and is just a shared space for gaming. They're different animals.

I don't want to get too down on Roll20; it has different goals, and for a game like Gurps that has limited FG support, it's a wash to choose between them. Sorry If I seem to be hating on Roll20, I just wanted to clarify some misconceptions I saw.


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## Gundan Shadeslinger (Apr 7, 2015)

Could someone please tell me how much it would cost to get everything? I am a player and a DM.

Also, does this work offline?


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## Kramodlog (Apr 7, 2015)

turkeygiant said:


> It is a very relevant question though, if they are going to be the only company with a D&D license that would be major incentive to me to buy their product (I want digital tools), if they are just the first of many, I am going to have to wait though to see what the market looks like because their current offering doesn't line up very well with my needs, I could make it work but it is a lot of money to spend if it isn't my last option to consider.




Plus there is the question of what happens if WotC stops making 5e. Is the license still valid then? It might matter to those who paid 150$ up front to play limitless D&D.


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## Jester David (Apr 7, 2015)

That seems very expensive for a product where you need to buy the software as well. 

This likely doesn't bode well for cheap pricing if e-tools are ever released.


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## Nylanfs (Apr 7, 2015)

IgnatiusJ.Reilly said:


> Fantasy Grounds looks neat and I'm not really worried about the cost, unless one has difficulty finding a game after footing the bill. It's pretty easy to find a game on Roll 20 for free. I did notice they've got FG forums, but no 'Looking for a Group' function as on Roll 20. Something similar to this on Fantasy Grounds would do much allay any similar fears and give players and DMs an idea of what experience they might expect after the buy-in.



In the forums under Guild House I believe.


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## Mithreinmaethor (Apr 7, 2015)

goldomark said:


> Plus there is the question of what happens if WotC stops making 5e. Is the license still valid then? It might matter to those who paid 150$ up front to play limitless D&D.




The $149 is for a license to use Fantasy Grounds for you and your friends for whatever RPG you wish to play "forever". If you don't want to purchase a "forever" license then just pay the $9.99 for a month when you and your friends choose to play.

Does WotC come to your house and confiscate your 3e or 4e books, or hack your computer and removed 3e or 4e pdfs, because they no longer produce the version?  I can not see why the rules products you purchase to use on the table top will be any different.


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## Dire Bare (Apr 7, 2015)

Zaukrie said:


> Where the heck did I say it should be free? Wow, talk about arguing against a point I did not make at all. Wow. As for how fast the contents come out, how is that not a valid question? How do you know when they started working on it? You should maybe not make assumptions about posters and their intent.




In my post, I was unnecessarily harsh, sorry about that. I just came from the same discussion on Reddit, which was filled to the rim with histrionic complaints, and I overreacted on your post. Not an excuse, really. I've gone back and edited it, unfortunately after the damage was done.

After the first, harsh, line in my post, I was more responding in general. I'll continue here. Many of the complaints about price are ridiculous. If you feel that the pricing is too high for the value, that's fair. Or if you feel the pricing, fair or not, is out of your reach, it's reasonable to be disappointed. But many of the complaints I've seen in this thread and elsewhere act like Fantasy Grounds and/or WotC are trying to scam customers with unfairly high pricing, and that's patently ridiculous! FG is a small company and creating data sets is time intensive, and costly if you are paying someone to do it! And, as it's been pointed out already, you can input the data yourself, if you are willing to put in the time.

In regards to how quickly FG will release new data sets for upcoming WotC products, I still think expressing dismay towards FG on "how long" its taken so far is silly. Without any special insider knowledge, I feel pretty safe in assuming that FG did not start working on their D&D licensed data sets until sometime AFTER the Trapdoor Tech licensing arrangement fell through. Which wasn't very long ago, and again, it takes time to code a program to be fully compatible with 5E and than also more time to code data sets for the PHB and MM. The rollout so far, in both price and timeliness, is very reasonable, IMO.


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## Kramodlog (Apr 7, 2015)

Mithreinmaethor said:


> The $149 is for a license to use Fantasy Grounds for you and your friends for whatever RPG you wish to play. If you dont want to purchase a "forever license" then just pay the $9.99 for a month when you and your friends choose to play.



So once you pay that, you get access to any of the games they have licensed? The Druid pack that I bought, will still be usable?



> Does WotC come to your house and confiscate your 3e or 4e books, or hack your computer and removed 3e or 4e pdfs, because they no longer produce the version?



WotC? No. They licensed that work to some Ninja Inc.



> I would think that the rules products you purchase to use on the table top will be the same.



I'm sure you do, but an official confirmation from the guys who actually know whould be appreciated.


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## GX.Sigma (Apr 7, 2015)

So, if I want to play D&D 5e online, I have two options.

Option 1: Use the free basic rules (or the rulebooks I already have) to make characters and adventures the old-fashioned way. Use a free video chat app (or some other technology I already have) to play.
Price tag: $0.
Additional setup time: None.

Option 2: Buy whatever content you need to make what you want on FG. Use FG to play.
Price tag: Greater than the retail price of the books.
Additional setup time: Unclear, but after 11 forum pages and looking at their website, I still have no idea how it's supposed to work.

My question to FG users is, what is there about option #2 that makes it so much better than option #1? So far, all I'm seeing are downsides.


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## Nylanfs (Apr 7, 2015)

scythe0925 said:


> I believe I remember seeing this program at GenCon last year, and stating that I was transitioning to 5e. Now that this is a thing, I hope they will be at GenCon this year for me to see first hand (especially since I will be moving to CO soon). I will make sure to bring funds to purchase it on site if it is awesome



There are several groups that play and record on Twitch, do a search on there to find a game to watch.


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## Dire Bare (Apr 7, 2015)

Jester Canuck said:


> That seems very expensive for a product where you need to buy the software as well.
> 
> This likely doesn't bode well for cheap pricing if e-tools are ever released.




Full featured e-Tools shouldn't be "cheap". You get what you pay for. FG is expensive, but you get a lot of functionality for that price. Hopefully, the D&D license FG has acquired isn't exclusive, or at least allows different kinds of digital tools to be developed by others.

FG isn't a good product if all you are looking for is a character generator. I'm hoping that WotC allows other software packages like Hero Lab to fill that void, and it would likely be a lot cheaper.

Time will tell.


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## smiteworks (Apr 7, 2015)

[MENTION=6790472]vandaexpress[/MENTION], 
If you have token images from another source, you can add those into your tokens\host folder in Fantasy Grounds and reuse them. Your maps can be dragged into your image window as well or manually placed in your campaign's images folder.


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## Gundan Shadeslinger (Apr 7, 2015)

smiteworks said:


> [MENTION=6790472]vandaexpress[/MENTION],
> If you have token images from another source, you can add those into your tokens\host folder in Fantasy Grounds and reuse them. Your maps can be dragged into your image window as well or manually placed in your campaign's images folder.



I don't understand the pricing system.

What will it cost me if I want everything?


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## smiteworks (Apr 7, 2015)

goldomark said:


> Plus there is the question of what happens if WotC stops making 5e. Is the license still valid then? It might matter to those who paid 150$ up front to play limitless D&D.




I will comment on this part, even though it is part of our licensing agreement. Should the license end at some point, we will no longer be able to sell new content or existing content. We will be allowed to maintain copies of all products produced and sold at that time for maintenance purposes so that people can re-install products they've rightfully purchased and continue to use them. If you have it at that time, you'll continue to have it. 

Our 5E ruleset itself is divorced from the actual content of the game, so we will continue to provide that, like we do for our 3.5E, 4E and PFRPG rulesets.


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## Dire Bare (Apr 7, 2015)

GX.Sigma said:


> So, if I want to play D&D 5e online, I have two options.
> 
> Option 1: Use the free basic rules (or the rulebooks I already have) to make characters and adventures the old-fashioned way. Use a free video chat app (or some other technology I already have) to play.
> Price tag: $0.
> ...




Goodness, it's not that hard. The FG website isn't the best, but after taking less than 15 minutes going through it, I feel I've got a pretty good handle on it.

Download the free demo or subscribe for one month for $3.99. Or take part of their upcoming virtual gaming convention where everybody gets full access for free. Spend another $2.99 on the Basic Rules dataset. Play around with it, run a game, try inputting your own data . . . take that car for a test drive. If you like it, decide *how much* you like it and . . . .

Option 1: Purchase the basic software for $39 and *maybe* some datasets beyond the Basic Rules. Or continue your $3.99 monthly sub (only when you are playing online). Your players will also have to purchase the software. Buy monster packs and adventures as you need them.

Option 2: If you want to host players who don't own the software, then spring for the $150 "ultimate" license. Or, sub for $9.99 a month as needed. If you have a lot of players and they all chip in, this can be cheaper overall than Option 1. That's really the only added feature of the "ultimate" license, as far as I can tell.

Regarding the D&D datasets, you have several more options.

Option A: The basic rules structure is including in the basic software package. You could spend your own time learning how and then inputting the data yourself. All for free. However, several posters have stated this is very time intensive. And it's easy to make typos that through off your self-made datasets.

Option B: Go for the whole she-bang and purchase the Core Class Pack ($50) and the Core Monster Pack ($50). All the work is done for you, but it is expensive.

Option C: Take the a la carte approach and purchase smaller packs as you need them. Are you a player and only play Rangers? Then instead of the Core Class Pack, just pick up the Ranger Class Pack. Are you a DM and don't need *all* the monsters? Then purchase some of the smaller monster packs as you need them. Over time, this could be more expensive than just simply getting the complete packs, but it can work out if you simply can't afford the big packages all at once.

The pricing is a bit complex because FG is giving you a lot of options on how to use their software. They could make the pricing simpler, but it would likely end up raising the price on the "entry level". But the idea that you *have* to spend $250.00 to use the software for D&D is simply not accurate, that is simply the price for the cadillac package!

They could use somebody to redesign their website to make things more clear and easy to find, that's certainly true!


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## Dire Bare (Apr 7, 2015)

smiteworks said:


> I will comment on this part, even though it is part of our licensing agreement. Should the license end at some point, we will no longer be able to sell new content or existing content. We will be allowed to maintain copies of all products produced and sold at that time for maintenance purposes so that people can re-install products they've rightfully purchased and continue to use them. If you have it at that time, you'll continue to have it.
> 
> Our 5E ruleset itself is divorced from the actual content of the game, so we will continue to provide that, like we do for our 3.5E, 4E and PFRPG rulesets.




I have another licensing question you may or may not be able to answer! 

Do you have the license to reproduce WotC map products, like the many Dungeon Tile sets released over the years during the 3E and 4E era?

That would be pretty cool! And I would hope, easy to implement if WotC supplied you with the digital imagery!


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## The Black Ranger (Apr 7, 2015)

How much will it cost if I want to purchase everything?


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## Mithreinmaethor (Apr 7, 2015)

The Black Ranger said:


> How much will it cost if I want to purchase everything?




View attachment 67789

Here is the link someone posted earlier it might assist you further ...... https://www.fantasygrounds.com/buyFG/DungeonsAndDragons.html


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## TDarien (Apr 7, 2015)

The Black Ranger said:


> How much will it cost if I want to purchase everything?




$150 for the Ultimate license (or $10/month for a subscription)
$50 for the Complete Class Package
$50 for the Complete Monster Package
$20 for Lost Mines of Phandelver


$270.  (Or $120 and $10/month)

This will allow anyone with a Demo license( free) to connect to your game and view all the content.


Alternatively, you and all your players could buy normal licenses for $40 (or $4/month)


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## smiteworks (Apr 8, 2015)

Dire Bare said:


> I have another licensing question you may or may not be able to answer!
> 
> Do you have the license to reproduce WotC map products, like the many Dungeon Tile sets released over the years during the 3E and 4E era?
> 
> That would be pretty cool! And I would hope, easy to implement if WotC supplied you with the digital imagery!




We would love to do a bunch of stuff like that, including 3.5E, 4E and even earlier stuff. For now, our initial focus is solely on current version of Dungeons & Dragons.


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## Hussar (Apr 8, 2015)

What irritates me most about this program is the pricing scheme.  Our group rotates DM's, and some of us play with other groups as well.  IOW, we'd need to buy six or seven licenses to get the same functionality that we get from Maptool or Roll20.  

Now we're looking about about 200+ dollars, just for the VTT.  That's before we start buying the packs, which we would then each have to purchase, since the DM has to have that pack.

A thousand or so dollars is a bit steep.


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## RSKennan (Apr 8, 2015)

If you're all going to be running games, you don't need the ultimate license. Full licenses are about $40 each. The ultimate license is just for people who want to do their group a favor, and let them play for free.


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## Griogre (Apr 8, 2015)

TDarien said:


> $150 for the Ultimate license (or $10/month for a subscription)
> $50 for the Complete Class Package
> $50 for the Complete Monster Package
> $20 for Lost Mines of Phandelver
> ...




I just wanted to point out one additional option if you have a group already.  You can get a four pack of FG licenses for $120 - 4 for the price of 3 on Steam: http://store.steampowered.com/app/252690/


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## Mithreinmaethor (Apr 8, 2015)

Hussar said:


> What irritates me most about this program is the pricing scheme.  Our group rotates DM's, and some of us play with other groups as well.  IOW, we'd need to buy six or seven licenses to get the same functionality that we get from Maptool or Roll20.
> 
> Now we're looking about about 200+ dollars, just for the VTT.  That's before we start buying the packs, which we would then each have to purchase, since the DM has to have that pack.
> 
> A thousand or so dollars is a bit steep.




You do not need to purchase a "forever" license for $149.

I am not sure Fantasy Grounds policies on this but I can see you having a DM's account that you purchase the modules and resources on and then just purchase a $9.99 monthly sub the months your group plays. Anyone with a demo license can play and the players would not need to purchase anything.

Depending upon your group you could even all split the costs for the resources on the DMs account.


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## The Black Ranger (Apr 8, 2015)

TDarien said:


> $150 for the Ultimate license (or $10/month for a subscription)
> $50 for the Complete Class Package
> $50 for the Complete Monster Package
> $20 for Lost Mines of Phandelver
> ...




So 270 total will give me everything? All monsters, feats, spells, classes, etc...?


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## MerricB (Apr 8, 2015)

vandaexpress said:


> Also, not that this should surprise ANYONE, but ya gotta love how this isn't mentioned anywhere on WOTC's website for D&D. #justwotcthings




I've noticed that Wizards tends to let their licensing partner make the initial announcement about the product. After all, it's the partner's product.

Wizards will likely put up an announcement in the next day or two. 

Cheers!


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## Mithreinmaethor (Apr 8, 2015)

MerricB said:


> I've noticed that Wizards tends to let their licensing partner make the initial announcement about the product. After all, it's the partner's product.
> 
> Wizards will likely put up an announcement in the next day or two.
> 
> Cheers!




There is a post on Facebook from WotC, well their Dungeon and Dragons page, linking to the Fantasy Grounds announcement.


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## turkeygiant (Apr 8, 2015)

Hussar said:


> What irritates me most about this program is the pricing scheme.  Our group rotates DM's, and some of us play with other groups as well.  IOW, we'd need to buy six or seven licenses to get the same functionality that we get from Maptool or Roll20.
> 
> Now we're looking about about 200+ dollars, just for the VTT.  That's before we start buying the packs, which we would then each have to purchase, since the DM has to have that pack.
> 
> A thousand or so dollars is a bit steep.




Yeah this is the same reason why I am so unsure about this setup. This just isn't the system for games where players come in and out and the DM changes all the tiem, there is too much of a focus on one account being crucial, I would rather see lower prices shared across the group so no one person is key.

Also though I see the value of the online play utilities, they just don't have particular value to my face to face traditional group, and there is no way to really purchase just the element of the system I am interested in, the digital resources for character creation and maybe populating monster stats.


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## Mithreinmaethor (Apr 8, 2015)

turkeygiant said:


> Yeah this is the same reason why I am so unsure about this setup. This just isn't the system for games where players come in and out and the DM changes all the tiem, there is too much of a focus on one account being crucial, I would rather see lower prices shared across the group so no one person is key.
> 
> Also though I see the value of the online play utilities, they just don't have particular value to my face to face traditional group, and there is no way to really purchase just the element of the system I am interested in, the digital resources for character creation and maybe populating monster stats.




This is NOT, nor was it meant to be E-TOOLS.

It is exactly what it states it is, a tabletop program produced by Fantasy Grounds for internet play of roleplaying games, that is licensed by WotC to produce 5th edition content for their tabletop program.


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## vandaexpress (Apr 8, 2015)

smiteworks said:


> It does run on Mac and Linux under WINE. The easiest solution for most Mac users is to purchase the license for FG from Steam for Mac and then purchase all the DLC directly from our store. It's like a one click install at that point. When you launch it from Steam on your Mac, you'll go to your settings and link it with your Fantasy Grounds forum username and password so it can retrieve any DLC purchases you've made. The only issue we had with Mac is that the DLC bought directly in Steam doesn't auto-download. Those are not flagged as Mac compatible on Steam for that reason, but if you accidentally buy them anyway -- just shoot a note to support@fantasygrounds.com and we can add it to your FG forum account.




Just did this and it worked like a charm on my MacBook Pro. Diving into the content now.


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## drjones (Apr 8, 2015)

Hmm if this means we will not be getting an affordable character builder or monster/encounter designer then I am super disappointed.  The beta for the other tool seemed significantly better.  Hopefully this is not an exclusive deal, though judging by the prices it will be.


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## dd.stevenson (Apr 8, 2015)

Fantasy Grounds is easily my least favorite tabletop tool on the current market, and the price of this package is prohibitive. 

Still, it's a start. Here's to hoping other VTT makers follow suit.


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## DM Howard (Apr 8, 2015)

dd.stevenson said:


> Fantasy Grounds is easily my least favorite tabletop tool on the current market, and the price of this package is prohibitive.
> 
> Still, it's a start. Here's to hoping other VTT makers follow suit.




Yeah, certainly not starting the moan-train, but I've never been able to get used to FG as much as I want to.  It just feels too counter intuitive to me, personally.  That pricing is a little much in my opinion, but to each their own.


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## mattcolville (Apr 8, 2015)

turkeygiant said:


> Can you create characters and populate monsters with stats included? that's close enough to e-tools for me.




Sure, but it would be easier and faster to do it by hand. 

For 4E, there was a tool that imported your characters from the DDI xml, that was aces! Alas, no DDI for 5E.


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## mlund (Apr 8, 2015)

Interesting. 

I'm curious to see how much functionality you get with just the basic rules engine and subscription. I mean, if you can write in your own attacks and effects and have them still be drag-and-drop ready then it's not a bad deal at all if you already have dead-tree versions of the books. I already have to write up character sheets and monster stat-blocks by hand to prep an analog game as a player or DM anyway. I can't stand trying to run a game flipping back and forth in the PHB or the MM all the time. I guess the real test is to see how accessible the hooks are. Like, can I transcribe a feat or class about that gives Advantage under certain conditions accurately? Do I need the MM or PHB to use the Lost Mines content?

Marty Lund


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## Tony Vargas (Apr 8, 2015)

turkeygiant said:


> Yeah this is the same reason why I am so unsure about this setup. This just isn't the system for games where players come in and out and the DM changes all the tiem, there is too much of a focus on one account being crucial, I would rather see lower prices shared across the group so no one person is key.



 It would seem appropriate for 5e's rulings not rules philosophy, since you can't really expect a lot of portability from one DM to the next (unless they're all AL DMs, of course).  Ideally, the DM would even be able to customize the content his players access (don't know if that's the case, or even a possibility going forward, but it'd be supportive of 5e's DM-empowerment).


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## Nylanfs (Apr 8, 2015)

Actual play session


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## Nylanfs (Apr 8, 2015)

mlund said:


> Interesting.
> 
> I'm curious to see how much functionality you get with just the basic rules engine and subscription. I mean, if you can write in your own attacks and effects and have them still be drag-and-drop ready then it's not a bad deal at all if you already have dead-tree versions of the books. I already have to write up character sheets and monster stat-blocks by hand to prep an analog game as a player or DM anyway. I can't stand trying to run a game flipping back and forth in the PHB or the MM all the time. I guess the real test is to see how accessible the hooks are. Like, can I transcribe a feat or class about that gives Advantage under certain conditions accurately? Do I need the MM or PHB to use the Lost Mines content?
> 
> Marty Lund




Walkthrough of CoreRPG


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## Nylanfs (Apr 8, 2015)

Lots of videos on their wiki


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## smiteworks (Apr 8, 2015)

The Lost Mines comes with all the monster stats from the MM and pre-gen characters. You can still build your own characters and monsters. I would highly recommend picking up at least the D&D Basic Rules & Theme pack ($2.99) or the PC Customization Pack ($9.99), though, because in addition to a pretty sharp looking theme, they have all the races, backgrounds and equipment. The D&D Basic Rules comes with 4 basic versions of the classes pre-loaded and 120 spells pre-entered. The PC Customization Pack comes with a bunch of D&D portraits you can use and lists of feats. This would give you a pretty clear idea of how to enter your own stuff. You can basically set up spells to automatically roll against targeted monster saving throws, do half or full damage, drop an effect on the target, etc. Damage types are also coded so that if a monster has resistances or vulnerabilities to certain things, it will take that into consideration with dealing damage.


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## GX.Sigma (Apr 8, 2015)

Dire Bare said:


> The pricing is a bit complex because FG is giving you a lot of options on how to use their software. They could make the pricing simpler, but it would likely end up raising the price on the "entry level". But the idea that you *have* to spend $250.00 to use the software for D&D is simply not accurate, that is simply the price for the cadillac package!




I get it; it's a premium service. I've spent hundreds on Dwarven Forge because I feel like I'm getting a premium product for a premium price. My question is, what are the features of FG that make it worth the premium? And do all of those features really add up to an experience that's better than pencil+paper+skype? Then I can decide whether it's good enough to pay that much money for something that I can do for free.


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## Nylanfs (Apr 8, 2015)

GX.Sigma said:


> I get it; it's a premium service. I've spent hundreds on Dwarven Forge because I feel like I'm getting a premium product for a premium price. My question is, what are the features of FG that make it worth the premium? And do all of those features really add up to an experience that's better than pencil+paper+skype? Then I can decide whether it's good enough to pay that much money for something that I can do for free.




Check the link of actual play and walkthrough a couple of posts above yours.


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## Reynard (Apr 8, 2015)

RSKennan said:


> Reynard, I can also run a quick one on one with you using the demo license (which limits us to one player) and Skype. It would be cool to hang out with you again.




In! Maybe we can get the band back together. I will PM you when I get back from vacation.


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## Rhenny (Apr 8, 2015)

I switched over to Fantasy Grounds about 6 months ago.  A friend and I made tons of 5e monsters and player character sheets. It was time consuming but worth it.

I started with the monthly ultimate subscription for a couple of months and then FG had a sale for the lifetime license so I bought it.  

I DM about 1 session per week.  I created my own Ghosts of Dragonspear castle using the maps from WoTC pdf.  I also play in another session every week.

This product is very sharp.  I love it.


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## aramis erak (Apr 8, 2015)

God said:


> That's a lot of filthy lucre, considering you can get all three dead-tree rulebook for about $100 on Amazon. But I guess in the digital age this kind of pricing scheme makes sense?




Only if they want to continue their low uptake...

Oh, and there is no REAL mac support*, no linux support, no android support, no ios support.

*WINE is buggy as hell for network apps.


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## smiteworks (Apr 8, 2015)

aramis erak said:


> Only if they want to continue their low uptake...
> 
> Oh, and there is no REAL mac support*, no linux support, no android support, no ios support.
> 
> *WINE is buggy as hell for network apps.




We don't have this problem with our implementation. One of our 3 core developers is exclusively a Mac guy. He helped us assemble the Steam version and it works flawlessly with players and DM's inside or outside of Steam on either Mac or PC. I don't use Linux outside of server products, but my understanding is that it works just as well. Mac OS is basically a cousin of Linux anyway.


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## Mask_of_winter (Apr 8, 2015)

GX.Sigma said:


> I get it; it's a premium service. I've spent hundreds on Dwarven Forge because I feel like I'm getting a premium product for a premium price. My question is, what are the features of FG that make it worth the premium? And do all of those features really add up to an experience that's better than pencil+paper+skype? Then I can decide whether it's good enough to pay that much money for something that I can do for free.




Where FG really stand out in my opinion is the combat tracker. What does that mean? Think of monster HP tracking, effects/conditions... How many times do you have to ask your players: "What's your AC again?" or how many times do you have to cross reference with your own combat cards or flipping through your manual to know if your monsters are hit, and then you have to jot down notes, deduce the HP, track the conditions, etc.

Now what if I told you there is a VTT that keep tracks of all that...
View attachment 67790
This is FG.

Now you can enter all the data manually to make that possible or use a parser. Either way you're looking at easily a hundred hours of work.

Or you can spend the $50 per book and the work has been done for you. 

I ran 4e back in the day and combat would go a lot faster on FG than it did at my table for face-to-face games.

So as someone else said, it really depends how much you value your time. And I'll add this, it also depends how much prep you want to do and how smooth you want the combats to go. I know a lot of people use FG for face-to-face games just for the combat tracker and how eliminates almost all of the book keeping.
Then you have other things like auto XP drop and split, auto treasure parcels drop and split that save even more time. In a 4hrs time period do you want to spend more time roleplaying and having fun or do you want to spend 2-3 hours running a battle when you could spend half that? Do you want the battle to have a good flow or you don't care to lose your player's attention to Facebook or Youtube while you're resolving a die roll and digging through your books? Because with FG, one click here and there is all it takes.


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## fjw70 (Apr 8, 2015)

This is exciting news. I don't use VTTs and won't buy this but it at least tells me they are working on digital stuff and any day something useful for me may be released.


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## jusdup (Apr 8, 2015)

So does this give us any indication as to what we might expect from a possible 5E OGL/GSL? What are the odds that the only official virtual table top support from WotC will be for Fantasy Grounds?

I'm feeling rather disappointed with this announcement. I'm sure FG fans are happy to see this as it will benefit the developers of this software but I just don't see this as a step forward for the majority of VTT 5E players and D&D in general. To me it's like announcing that D&D ebooks are now only available on BlackBerry World. Don't get we wrong, I realize I'm probably missing a bigger picture here so go easy on me if you don't agree. This is just me expressing how I feel about this based on my own perspective and opinion.


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## Jester David (Apr 8, 2015)

Dire Bare said:


> Full featured e-Tools shouldn't be "cheap". You get what you pay for. FG is expensive, but you get a lot of functionality for that price. Hopefully, the D&D license FG has acquired isn't exclusive, or at least allows different kinds of digital tools to be developed by others.
> 
> FG isn't a good product if all you are looking for is a character generator. I'm hoping that WotC allows other software packages like Hero Lab to fill that void, and it would likely be a lot cheaper.
> 
> Time will tell.



HeroLabs is a good example. It's expensive but not quite the same price as the physical books. IIRC it's $30 for the program abd one system and $20 for each additional system, with new books being $10.


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## mattcolville (Apr 8, 2015)

GX.Sigma said:


> I get it; it's a premium service. I've spent hundreds on Dwarven Forge because I feel like I'm getting a premium product for a premium price. My question is, what are the features of FG that make it worth the premium? And do all of those features really add up to an experience that's better than pencil+paper+skype? Then I can decide whether it's good enough to pay that much money for something that I can do for free.





I've been running FG for years now. Depending on how you run D&D, it can be incredibly useful. But a lot of that usefulness is just the sum of many many little conveniences. 

At the table, I have to call out which player is next. Which I sometimes forget to do because I'm taking notes or prepping the next bad guy's actions and people sit around and get frustrated. In FG when one player/monster is done, the next player hears a bell ring. Ding! It's your turn! So nice.

In a normal D&D game if my six players are fighting three orcs and five goblins (entirely plausible) and all 14 of those minis are moving around the board, keeping track of "which one did I attack last round?" can be a pain. Not, like, solving Bessel functions kind of pain, but it's friction, it adds up. In FG, the program keeps track of everyone's targets. It'll even draw little lines from attacker to target if you want, so you can see. It's very nice. 

In normal D&D if one player gives another a +2 to hit that lasts for three rounds, the second player has to remember the bonus (and he has to remember it three times) and then remember that it expires. Not so in FG! It will keep track of all that for you! As GM I can even turn on "automatic saving throws" in which case when the monsters are done, they'll all automatically roll saves and the system will remove those effects they successfully saved against.

(I mostly ran 4E, FG2 is AMAZING for 4E.)

In normal D&D the player has to tell me what AC he hit, and how much damage he did and often I'm still writing down the effects of what the previous player did so I have to say "Hold on" finish writing and then ask again. In FG, the player can roll to hit, find out if he hit, and roll damage and find out if the monster is dead or not, all without me having to do anything! So nice.

It's just a lot of the bookkeeping which I don't consider to be core to the D&D experience, Fantasy Grounds cleans up. Some people like that friction, it "feels like D&D," but my players have had every experience inside FG they've had outside. Cheering when a player rolls that clutch critical, laughing when they fumble. Being amazed when a player tries something crazy and it works. 

I love Fantasy Grounds because of the way it simulates a tabletop, as opposed to just a battle-mat. I push handouts out to players and now they each have a copy and they can each make notes. Each player has a copy of the World Map, the Local Area Map, the Town, they all make notes about what happened and who they talked to and I can see them all.


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## Psikerlord# (Apr 8, 2015)

I've already bought all the books, and  use "theatre of the mind" combat .... so Roll20 is best for me I think.

I am very glad this product exists as an option for those who want it however!


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## mattcolville (Apr 8, 2015)

J DuP said:


> So does this give us any indication as to what we might expect from a possible 5E OGL/GSL? What are the odds that the only official virtual table top support from WotC will be for Fantasy Grounds?





I was really, really happy when WotC canceled Morningstar because I'd been beta testing it and I found it typical of tabletop companies efforts into the iOS App ecology. Like Privateer Press' War Room, Morningstar didn't obey any of the normal iOS standards. They created their own UI with their own logic and I'm sure they thought it was a fine User Experience, but iOS already *has* those standards and regardless of whether your company managed to come up with something better, the point is we all *know* the rules of iOS and when you break them you make your product harder to use.

It seemed to me that maybe WotC was more interested in putting out a good product, rather than getting something, *anything* into the players' hands. That's good. You can run D&D without any of this stuff, so WotC can take their time and make sure the final product is aces.

I think that's why they felt comfortable giving a license to Smiteworks. Because for all it's eccentricities, it provides a polished experience. And by licensing the data to Smiteworks, they're removing like 90% of the weirdness of Fantasy Grounds.

A lot of Fantasy Grounds' wierdness comes from trying to build your own data modules. When you run FG, you're running a server from your computer that serves data to clients who connect. This is not something normal people do. Normal people don't worry about port forwarding. And you need to scrub or "parse" all the 5E data, which doesn't happen automatically, you need to download other programs fans made and those programs only work with the free stuff WotC puts online.

Whereas this license covers everything! Yay! All the monsters at my fingertips! Yay! Already I'm thinking about using this on my Surface Pro just to manage combat because at the table I have to flip back and forth between stat blocks in the MM. Pain in the butt.

I also like to customize monsters, which FG makes easy. I grab a monster from the MM, drag him into the NPC pane, and now I have a unique version of that monster. I can give him another monster's abilities just by dragging and dropping. So nice.

Anyway, it's not perfect and it's not for everyone, but it's a powerful program and deserves some attention.


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## Roux (Apr 8, 2015)

Are these "packs" solely for use on the FG virtual tabletop?


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## Mask_of_winter (Apr 8, 2015)

Roux said:


> Are these "packs" solely for use on the FG virtual tabletop?



Yes.


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## Torgaard (Apr 8, 2015)

Ok, so here are a couple of absolutely outstanding YouTube videos that will answer pretty dang near all of your questions about playing 5E D&D on Fantasy Grounds. They're very high quality, well thought out, and extremely informative. They're done by one of the many extremely helpful members of the FG community named "Xorn". *If you watch any video on how Fantasy Grounds works, watch this*:

HERE is Xorn's 5E Player Quickstart video. It does a superb job of laying out the basics of character creation, the Combat Tracker (the true gem of FG's functionality), and even a few rounds of mock combat where he explains the basics of using a battlemap, etc.

IMPORTANT NOTE: At the beginning of the video, Xorn builds his character by scratch, manually filling out the character sheet. What you get when you buy the 5E addons - is automation. Oh so sweet automation. Example: Say you were making a 1st level Fighter. You'd roll your stats, but then you'd reach into the little 5E compendium, drag and drop the Fighter class onto your character sheet, and *BING!* - automation. Fantasy Grounds will automatically populate all the relevant fields having to do with the Fighter throughout your sheet. It'll ask you what you want your Skills you want to be proficient it (just click your choices) and then automatically select them, and setup their bonuses in the Skills tab. It'll automatically add your Armor and Weapon proficiencies to the appropriate sections in the Abilities tab, it'll automatically add all your Features to the Abilities tab, etc. Then, say you want to be an elf - same deal. Drag n' drop the 5E elf onto your sheet, and it'll ask you if you want to be a High Elf, Wood Elf, or Drow Elf - make your selection, and *BING!* everything on your sheet gets filled out automatically. Traits, Languages, your Speed. It'll do the same thing with Equipment. Go HERE to see screenshots of what I'm talkin' about. But what's REALLY cool is that when you level, you repeat the process, and the table does all the automation. Your 2nd level Fighter will get what a 2nd level Fighter gets, and it'll be automated on the sheet. While FG is not a digital toolset, eeeeee - it gets dangerously close.

I also wouldn't confuse the "macro's" he setup at the bottom of the screen with the crazy macro heavy world of other VTT's. Everything can be done from the character sheet. In fact, my players pretty much use their sheets for (almost) everything. They'll occasionally drag n' drop ye olde "Perception Check" down there, something like that, but otherwise they kinda like using the sheet.

Nutshell: I can create a 1st level character in about 5 minutes. 10 minutes if I take a little time. And be ready to play. Frankly, the longest time sink would be rolling my ability scores (and deciding where to put them) and choosing equipment and spells.

HERE is Xorn's video called 5E FG Behind the DM Screen. Again, just a fantastic video. Very detailed, pretty easy to understand, but if it's totally new to you there might be some information overload, so definitely get some hands-on experience (download the demo).

Pro Tip: In the end, it's allllll about the Combat Tracker. Combat Tracker, Combat Tracker, Combat Tracker. Frankly, I can't even remember how the heck we did this on paper back in the day. And honestly, I'd rather eat my own head than go back to it. I'd (at the very least) project FG onto the wall for me and the players to see and use the Combat Tracker if nothing else.

I will say this: when I first discovered Fantasy Grounds a few years ago, I learned 90% of how to use it from Xorn's (4E) videos. I'd basically be flipping back and forth constantly from the table to YouTube constantly. Get to the part in the video about, I dunno - creating Effects or something - watch it - pause it - then go try it on the table. I'd then pretty much screw it up on the table (I'm kinda dumb), so I'd have to flip back to the video and watch that part again, rinse, repeat, etc. You get the picture.


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## Kramodlog (Apr 8, 2015)

J DuP said:


> So does this give us any indication as to what we might expect from a possible 5E OGL/GSL?




That somehow the OGL text will be licensed?


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## Nylanfs (Apr 8, 2015)

mattcolville said:


> I was really, really happy when WotC canceled Morningstar because I'd been beta testing it and I found it typical of tabletop companies efforts into the iOS App ecology. Like Privateer Press' War Room, Morningstar didn't obey any of the normal iOS standards. They created their own UI with their own logic and I'm sure they thought it was a fine User Experience, but iOS already *has* those standards and regardless of whether your company managed to come up with something better, the point is we all *know* the rules of iOS and when you break them you make your product harder to use.
> 
> It seemed to me that maybe WotC was more interested in putting out a good product, rather than getting something, *anything* into the players' hands. That's good. You can run D&D without any of this stuff, so WotC can take their time and make sure the final product is aces.
> 
> ...





Note tablet support is still iffy, the touch interface is a little wonky


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## Harry Dresden (Apr 8, 2015)

Torgaard said:


> Ok, so here are a couple of absolutely outstanding YouTube videos that will answer pretty dang near all of your questions about playing 5E D&D on Fantasy Grounds. They're very high quality, well thought out, and extremely informative. They're done by one of the many extremely helpful members of the FG community named "Xorn". *If you watch any video on how Fantasy Grounds works, watch this*:
> 
> HERE is Xorn's 5E Player Quickstart video. It does a superb job of laying out the basics of character creation, the Combat Tracker (the true gem of FG's functionality), and even a few rounds of mock combat where he explains the basics of using a battlemap, etc.
> 
> ...




I've tried watching those videos but they are very blurry.


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## fjw70 (Apr 8, 2015)

Would pdfs be a competing product to this? I mean would pdfs of the books make it easy to extract the data making these packs unnecessary?


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## Nylanfs (Apr 8, 2015)

Somewhat, it would make copying and pasting easier, but not getting everything interconnected and related. Although that doesn't facter in the sometimes wierd copying that happens from pdf's


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## Vesper (Apr 8, 2015)

What does FG have for printing capability?  ie- could I use FG for online sessions and then have people bring printed character sheets to the next live session, complete with any updates made in FG?


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## smiteworks (Apr 8, 2015)

One of our customers reported that the D&D Basic Rules wasn't downloading and installing the new theme for D&D. We found and fixed the problem. If you happened to buy the D&D Basic Rules pack, please run another update and you should be all set. 

I think there are a few other little issues reported with some typos that slipped through QA, but we expect to push out some updates over the next few days to address those as well. Sorry for the issue -- especially since I was recommending for people to pick up the D&D Basic Rules pack at a minimum so they got the new theme.


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## mattcolville (Apr 8, 2015)

Man another thing I love about FG is the Party Sheet. I can set a stealth DC or whatever and with one button have the entire party roll a perception check and see who made it without anyone even knowing I did it! So awesome.

Also, the language addon is so cool. I can format text in Draconic and people who speak Draconic see it as English, people who don't see it as this cool alien font. So nice.


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## badudley (Apr 8, 2015)

smiteworks said:


> We don't have this problem with our implementation. One of our 3 core developers is exclusively a Mac guy. He helped us assemble the Steam version and it works flawlessly with players and DM's inside or outside of Steam on either Mac or PC. I don't use Linux outside of server products, but my understanding is that it works just as well. Mac OS is basically a cousin of Linux anyway.



Will you be adding the Ultimate License as a purchase option on Stream?


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## mattcolville (Apr 8, 2015)

Here's a video I did for 4E combat. It should be less blurry. 

http://youtu.be/6QAJzGKMEZA


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## Nylanfs (Apr 8, 2015)

It is an option, as a upgrade to a full license. That was the only way Valve could handle it AFAIK.


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## redrick (Apr 8, 2015)

fjw70 said:


> Would pdfs be a competing product to this? I mean would pdfs of the books make it easy to extract the data making these packs unnecessary?




I really don't think this license has any bearing on other products. FG exists in one specific niche -- virtual tabletops. Why would they pay for a license which locks our other products that don't compete with them?

Roll20 support is a different issue, but, up until recently, Roll20 has made no forays into actual rules content (beyond auto calculating character sheets). FG, on the other hand, as made rules content a cornerstone of their platform.


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## fjw70 (Apr 8, 2015)

redrick said:


> I really don't think this license has any bearing on other products. FG exists in one specific niche -- virtual tabletops. Why would they pay for a license which locks our other products that don't compete with them?
> 
> Roll20 support is a different issue, but, up until recently, Roll20 has made no forays into actual rules content (beyond auto calculating character sheets). FG, on the other hand, as made rules content a cornerstone of their platform.




WotC has a history of protecting its partners. Now FG is useless to those that want pdfs but I was curious if PDFs would be useful to FG users? I don't know.


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## Nylanfs (Apr 8, 2015)

fjw70 said:


> WotC has a history of protecting its partners.




Paizo and Code Monkey Publishing (probably more) would beg to differ. 



fjw70 said:


> Now FG is useless to those that want pdfs but I was curious if PDFs would be useful to FG users? I don't know.




It would make it easier for people using FG to recreate the adventures, if they are money tight but time free.


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## JohnD (Apr 8, 2015)

fjw70 said:


> Would pdfs be a competing product to this? I mean would pdfs of the books make it easy to extract the data making these packs unnecessary?




A PDF isn't going to let you play on-line, obviously, but if you have the time to burn entering the information in a useable manner into FG, sure you can avoid the purchase.  I guess anyone doing this would have to decide if they want to spend all that time playing or entering data though.


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## HobbitFan (Apr 8, 2015)

Well this looks interesting but the price is going to be a barrier for my gaming group.


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## redrick (Apr 8, 2015)

fjw70 said:


> WotC has a history of protecting its partners. Now FG is useless to those that want pdfs but I was curious if PDFs would be useful to FG users? I don't know.




I'm a Roll20 user, so not entirely sure, but my guess would be minimally useful. What FG is offering is the ability to drop any content from the core rules into your campaign and have it works seamlessly with their various dice rolling and data tracking features. That means being able to say, "there are 4 orcs in this room" and drop 4 orcs into the room, knowing that you will have unique hp trackers for each, that you can press an "attack" button for each and it will roll with the relevant modifiers, press a "dex save" button for each and get the appropriate modifiers, etc. That doesn't sound that important if you are running things at the tabletop with a lot of space and a bunch of books in front of you, but the reality is that, for a lot of people in the virtual tabletop environment, having the information coded into the system in a consistent way makes the gameplay smoother and allows them to focus on the aspects of GM'ing that matter. I never use digital aids at the table, but all my attempts to take that approach to the virtual table have been a total drag.

So, FG lets you just plug and play. That's gold and easily worth $100 if you are comfortable with their platform and would otherwise be entering the data yourself. Countless hours saved. PDFs might make it a little easier to do the data entry yourself, but it's still a lot of work. As an example, I use a mixture of Necromancer Fifth Edition Foes monsters in my game and Wizards MM monsters. The Necromancer monsters are in a pdf, and the Wizards monsters are in a hardback. Often, even copying and pasting the Necromancer PDF doesn't work properly, and, even when it does, there's a lot of formatting to do. And it's little help in filling in the various fields for the internal database. At the end of the day, no matter what my source, I still have to hand-enter a large portion of the information. The only benefit to me with the PDF is that I don't have much desk-space, so it's easier to manually copy data from a window on my second monitor than a hardback book crammed in between my mouse and my coffee cup.

So, no, I don't imagine that FG would be that threatened by PDFs. Or any other digital tools created primarily to support in-person tabletop games. FG provides a completely different service that is mostly about facilitating the virtual tabletop experience.


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## JohnD (Apr 8, 2015)

HobbitFan said:


> Well this looks interesting but the price is going to be a barrier for my gaming group.




There's the low priced subscription plans.  There's also a buy 3 get 4 license purchase option for the $40 license on Steam.


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## mattcolville (Apr 8, 2015)

Nylanfs said:


> Note tablet support is still iffy, the touch interface is a little wonky




Surface Pro is also a PC so I can just use a mouse.


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## Stacie GmrGrl (Apr 8, 2015)

$149 is a lot of money. I certainly won't be paying to be a DM through this. Even $10 a month seems high to me.


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## mattcolville (Apr 8, 2015)

Stacie GmrGrl said:


> $149 is a lot of money. I certainly won't be paying to be a DM through this. Even $10 a month seems high to me.




But it's $4 a month isn't it?


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## JohnD (Apr 8, 2015)

If you go to a fast food place for a meal and then go see a movie and buy a drink and popcorn, you've spent what, probably close to $30?  For an extra $10 you can get the Full license and have 100s of hours of gaming fun over many years.  Of course, there's the added cost of the two modules for 5e, $100, so I can see how in the here and now it looks expensive.

If you aren't sure, try to find a game to participate in during the upcoming FG Con (April 17-19) where you can play for free and get an introduction (maybe even find yourself a group to join going forward).

I've been using FG for a little over three years and I've purchased a significant amount of DLC over that time for the RoleMaster and Castles & Crusades rulesets.  I wouldn't call myself a heavy user either; on average I DM for about 3.5 hours a week.  My current cost/hour works out to almost exactly $0.24.  

You can't beat the long term value offered by FG, especially if you don't have 10s or 100s of hours to enter all the game content yourself.


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## the_redbeard (Apr 8, 2015)

If you pay the "ULTIMATE PRICE" , then the rest of your group can just download an unregistered version, correct?  

That could work.

I have house rules and a lot of home brewed content.  How easy is it to a)create content from scratch (mostly already defined powers already in use) and b) copy an object (either class or monster) and modify it?


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## OTG_Wraith (Apr 8, 2015)

Here's a complete playthrough of the Lost Mine of Phandelver using Fantasy Grounds. (spoilers and language) this was done before the official D&D 5E support but it illustrates how Fantasy Grounds plays...

[video=youtube;4YyGfv-oa1M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YyGfv-oa1M&list=PLBW-SmHnjnPE4At_n9a0lrpbOLg1K-F4t[/video]


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## Iosue (Apr 8, 2015)

So here's my situation.  I play a weekly game with my friend and family in the States.  I DM from my computer.  My friend has his own computer, while my sister's family (her, her husband, and their daughter) all use one single computer.  We use Roll20 for our map needs.  We communicate via Google Hangouts, mainly because I can use my phone, since my computer doesn't have a good camera or microphone.  We play mostly Basic Rules, with a few exceptions (War Cleric in last adventure, Warlock in this one).

What would be the most affordable, reasonable use of FG, if any, in this case?


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## damned (Apr 8, 2015)

@_*Iosue*_ - the most reasonably priced option for using FG here is:

you get 2x $4/month subscriptions to FG.
you use https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?21835-D-amp-D-Basic-Rules-PDF-Parser to suck in the Basic PDF (download from Wizards).

you dont get the theme and you dont get all of the classes or all of the monsters but you do get a goodly amount of stuff and you can try it all for $8.
but i would use the $3 basic rules to give that extra punch.
so you are $3 plus $8/month.

you might want to buy Lost Mines of Phandelver for $20 and kick start your learning experience and get gaming much quicker. but if you already played that hang out for the other adventure modules which will be ready real soon.

over time your players might want the bells and whistles of other class - $3each. only the GM needs to buy them for them to be available.

EDIT: sorry - you would need 3 subscriptions. but if you like it after one month Id use Steam to buy the 4 pack and you get 4 outright licenses for the price of 3. one for you, your friend, your family and one to gift/sell to someone later.


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## Evenglare (Apr 8, 2015)

Very cool. This is what I was saying about getting a tried and true dev. These guys clearly know what they are doing. Glad Wizards is starting to wise up.


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## mlund (Apr 8, 2015)

Eh, I'll spring the $13 for the basic rules and a 1 month on ultimate to run a few games and take it for a test drive. It'll be a good gauge on not only how much value I'm getting from the core utilities but also on how much customization and manual entry I can do and how much time the PHB and MM supplements would save me.

Marty Lund


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## aramis erak (Apr 8, 2015)

Nylanfs said:


> Somewhat, it would make copying and pasting easier, but not getting everything interconnected and related. Although that doesn't facter in the sometimes wierd copying that happens from pdf's




That usually happens because companies use a character ID number shift (usually to one of the Unicode PUA regions), and bind in a shifted-to-match version of the font. 

Note that doing so actually breaks the PDFs for an important use - by the visually impaired - because it prevents text-to-speech from working, too. 


The other major cause of weird copying is OCR text - which often gets it wrong.


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## Psikerlord# (Apr 8, 2015)

Torgaard said:


> Ok, so here are a couple of absolutely outstanding YouTube videos that will answer pretty dang near all of your questions about playing 5E D&D on Fantasy Grounds. They're very high quality, well thought out, and extremely informative. They're done by one of the many extremely helpful members of the FG community named "Xorn". *If you watch any video on how Fantasy Grounds works, watch this*:
> 
> HERE is Xorn's 5E Player Quickstart video. It does a superb job of laying out the basics of character creation, the Combat Tracker (the true gem of FG's functionality), and even a few rounds of mock combat where he explains the basics of using a battlemap, etc.
> 
> ...




Can FG accomodate house rules. Eg say I have a new spell. Can I input how it works into the program? Or what if I have houseruled Conjure Woodland Beings to take out the sentence about obeying orders? Can I delete that?


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## Jan van Leyden (Apr 8, 2015)

goldomark said:


> Plus there is the question of what happens if WotC stops making 5e. Is the license still valid then? It might matter to those who paid 150$ up front to play limitless D&D.




That's definitely a reason to have a close look at the end user license agreement for the D&D 5e packages. I would expect that those items will be removed from the store, but much better to check it out beforehand.

Is the EULA accessible somewhere?


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## Mithreinmaethor (Apr 8, 2015)

Jan van Leyden said:


> That's definitely a reason to have a close look at the end user license agreement for the D&D 5e packages. I would expect that those items will be removed from the store, but much better to check it out beforehand.
> 
> Is the EULA accessible somewhere?




This was already answered ...... HERE


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## Jan van Leyden (Apr 8, 2015)

In all of this discussion the topic of the still outstanding DMG hasn't been touched. The DMG contains (as far as I know - still playing 4e ) lots of optional rules with which you can tailor the game to your needs. Does FG plus DMG allow you to activate/deactivate those rules? Is the functionality already programmed into the product?


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## wedgeski (Apr 8, 2015)

I've already discovered the kind of remote play that works for our group, and digital tools aren't high on my list of "wants" for 5E...but I'm very glad to see this agreement come to fruition. Licensing to proven, established developers is undoubtedly the right way to go...good luck to all involved!


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## Blackwarder (Apr 8, 2015)

smiteworks said:


> It does run on Mac and Linux under WINE. The easiest solution for most Mac users is to purchase the license for FG from Steam for Mac and then purchase all the DLC directly from our store. It's like a one click install at that point. When you launch it from Steam on your Mac, you'll go to your settings and link it with your Fantasy Grounds forum username and password so it can retrieve any DLC purchases you've made. The only issue we had with Mac is that the DLC bought directly in Steam doesn't auto-download. Those are not flagged as Mac compatible on Steam for that reason, but if you accidentally buy them anyway -- just shoot a note to support@fantasygrounds.com and we can add it to your FG forum account.




Thanks!

Hmmmm, isn't there's a way to try it first? i'm not sure i'm keen on spending 40$ on something I just want to try...

Warder


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## Blackwarder (Apr 8, 2015)

Blackwarder said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Hmmmm, isn't there's a way to try it first? i'm not sure i'm keen on spending 40$ on something I just want to try...
> 
> Warder




Never mind, I downloaded the demo and than subscribed through the site and entered the key, worked like a charm!

Warder


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## damned (Apr 8, 2015)

Hola guys - the coding etc behind these frameworks is incredibly complex. Converting a source book to work with Fantasy Grounds is also complex. The DMG is about half way thru the conversion and is expected to be available around the end of May. All products need to be reviewed by the Wizards before being released too. Other adventures will be available before then.
You cant try out the licensed material without buying it but you can download the demo version and use https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?21835-D-amp-D-Basic-Rules-PDF-Parser to create many of the Basic rules for free. You can get a subscription for as low as $4/person or $10 for the ultimate which allows unlimited players with or without licenses.
Much of the DMG is tables etc. These will all have auto rolling and stuff. Some of the optional rules will be able to be turned on and off. Some rules will be left to GM interpretation.
Most spell effects are not automated. It is incredibly difficult to code automation for all the myriad effects etc available. There are some seriously powerfully effects to help implement and track spell casting. Spells with effects automatically expiring at the correct time, buffing or reducing stats or skills etc while others are just descriptive providing players and GM with the visual clues that the spell is still in effect.
If you buy 5E content thru the FG or Steam stores its yours to use with FG indefinitely irrespective of the status of the FG / DnD license. If the license expires FG will no longer be able to sell new content but will continue to stock it in order to replace it for you when installing on a new computer etc.
I think that is the last crop of questions covered


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## Jan van Leyden (Apr 8, 2015)

damned said:


> Most spell effects are not automated. It is incredibly difficult to code automation for all the myriad effects etc available. There are some seriously powerfully effects to help implement and track spell casting. Spells with effects automatically expiring at the correct time, buffing or reducing stats or skills etc while others are just descriptive providing players and GM with the visual clues that the spell is still in effect.




Now this is pretty open... Care to answer three concrete questions how these spells from the Basis Set work in FG?

_Disintegrate _prompts a saving throw from the target to be either disintegrated (killed and lost) or suffering some damage. If the damage reduces the target to 0 hp, it is disintegrated.

_Death Ward_ lets the target survive the next lethal attack within 8 hours. It is reduced to 1 hp instead and the spell ends.

_Faerie Fire_ grants CA on attacks versus the target(s). The spell's duration is determined by the caster's concentration (up to 1 minute).

How does concentration work?

How does targetting work? See Faerie Fire.

I don't want to diminish the quality or the effort that went into the product in any way, but these are serious usability concerns in my book.

My biggest issue with automation in VTTs is to make it clear which parts and details are automated and which aren't.


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## smiteworks (Apr 8, 2015)

Psikerlord# said:


> Can FG accomodate house rules. Eg say I have a new spell. Can I input how it works into the program? Or what if I have houseruled Conjure Woodland Beings to take out the sentence about obeying orders? Can I delete that?




Yes, you can create your own spell effects. You'll want to use similar syntax to the spells in the D&D basic rules or the Class Packs and then you'll see how it picks up on certain wordings and effects.


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## YourSwordIsMine (Apr 8, 2015)

I didn't see it listed anywhere, but which module has the full races from the PHB? or is that going to be released in a later PHB module?


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## Torg Smith (Apr 8, 2015)

YourSwordIsMine said:


> I didn't see it listed anywhere, but which module has the full races from the PHB? or is that going to be released in a later PHB module?




Fantasy Grounds - D&D Complete Core Class Pack has the races from the PHB.
http://store.steampowered.com/app/360090/?snr=1_7_7_230_150_2 

I am not positive on the individual pack that has it, so I don't want to guess here.


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## smiteworks (Apr 8, 2015)

Jan van Leyden said:


> Now this is pretty open... Care to answer three concrete questions how these spells from the Basis Set work in FG?
> 
> _Disintegrate _prompts a saving throw from the target to be either disintegrated (killed and lost) or suffering some damage. If the damage reduces the target to 0 hp, it is disintegrated.



Disintegrate rolls against the Dex with the DC determined by the caster and reports back success or failure. If the target fails the save, then you click on the damage icon or drag the damage dice to the target and it rolls the 10d6+40 damage. It doesn't do anything else special if the target drops below 0. Once they hit 0, they already mark the creature as dead and prep them to be removed from initiative.



Jan van Leyden said:


> _Death Ward_ lets the target survive the next lethal attack within 8 hours. It is reduced to 1 hp instead and the spell ends.



This spell doesn't automate anything. You could add an effect called Death Ward and set the duration to 8 hours. Then you would drag that effect from your spell to your recipient and it would last until you manually removed it.



Jan van Leyden said:


> _Faerie Fire_ grants CA on attacks versus the target(s). The spell's duration is determined by the caster's concentration (up to 1 minute).



You would probably want to add an effect to the spell that has a 1 min duration and is called GRANTADVATK. It would automatically drop that effect in the combat tracker for each creature that failed their save and any attack against those creatures would automatically provide advantage. If you lose concentration, the DM would have to manually remove the effects from the NPCs in the combat tracker (which is pretty easy.)

Here are a list of the effects you can create if you don't want to just use descriptive text:
http://www.fantasygrounds.com/wiki/index.php/5E_Effects



Jan van Leyden said:


> How does concentration work?



This needs to be manually tracked. I suppose you could create an effect called "Concentrating" and the DM could apply it to your PC in the combat tracker as a reminder that you are concentrating on a spell.



Jan van Leyden said:


> How does targetting work? See Faerie Fire.



You can drag an attack, damage or effect onto an enemy token on a map or onto an enemy listed in the combat tracker. Alternately, you can CTRL+Click multiple tokens on a map to target each of them. If you then click your spell attack, it will automatically roll to hit each or roll against the appropriate save. If the spell is set to do half damage on a save, it will apply half damage. Otherwise, effects or damage are dealt to those who failed their save.


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## Torg Smith (Apr 8, 2015)

Jan van Leyden said:


> Now this is pretty open... Care to answer three concrete questions how these spells from the Basis Set work in FG?
> 
> _Disintegrate _prompts a saving throw from the target to be either disintegrated (killed and lost) or suffering some damage. If the damage reduces the target to 0 hp, it is disintegrated.
> 
> ...




The GM still makes calls for the rolls needed. If you look at the screenshots on the product pages, you will see a bunch of little red dragon heads on them. If you click on any of them, a message box will pop up with a detailed description. This eliminates the need to go to the book to look up the information. There is some automation with standard things like to hit, save, damage, etc. There are videos that you can check out on the use of FG for more information.


EDIT: Was beat to the punch.


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## smiteworks (Apr 8, 2015)

YourSwordIsMine said:


> I didn't see it listed anywhere, but which module has the full races from the PHB? or is that going to be released in a later PHB module?




Complete Core Class Pack and the PC Customization Pack both have all the races. The D&D Basic Rules have the four races listed -- although I think we just saw an issue that is preventing them from showing up at the moment. I'll be posting a fix for that this morning. I will go in and update the product descriptions to make this more clear.


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## smiteworks (Apr 8, 2015)

I just updated the product descriptions so that it is clear that the PC Customization Pack and the Complete Core Class have all the Races included. We also just pushed an update to the D&D Basic Rules to fix an issue with the custom theme and 4 basic races not showing up. Run an update if you grabbed  those already. Finally, we added the basic rules module and theme to the Lost Mine of Phandelver product. That means that the Lost Mine of Phandelver module will give you everything you need to play the latest version using all the basic rules content.


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## damned (Apr 8, 2015)

Wanna try Fantasy Grounds? Wanna play 5E on the best damn virtual tabletop? Wanna try some other systems too? Savage Worlds and Pathfinder rock on Fantasy Grounds.




FG Con 6 – April 17-19th 2015 - register at www.fg-con.com for all the latest info.​


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## halfling rogue (Apr 8, 2015)

Without knocking how others like to play, this seems way too excessive and unnecessarily expensive for me. We normally play in person, but once when we couldn't meet last minute we set up a quick and fast Google Hangouts. One camera faced folks who were there and another camera was set up (via bent in half laptop) to view the grid, and we just played as if we were in person. We were all shocked how well it worked. We haven't done it yet, but we figured if we all had to be absent in the future that this solution could work. Again, not to downplay anyone who wants to use tools like this, but it seems like it really would be more of a hindrance than a help for some.


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## Mask_of_winter (Apr 8, 2015)

halfling rogue said:


> Without knocking how others like to play, this seems way too excessive and unnecessarily expensive for me. We normally play in person, but once when we couldn't meet last minute we set up a quick and fast Google Hangouts. One camera faced folks who were there and another camera was set up (via bent in half laptop) to view the grid, and we just played as if we were in person. We were all shocked how well it worked. We haven't done it yet, but we figured if we all had to be absent in the future that this solution could work. Again, not to downplay anyone who wants to use tools like this, but it seems like it really would be more of a hindrance than a help for some.




Yep, until you play in a game on FG...


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## Bagpuss (Apr 8, 2015)

Bit more than 20% depending on the class don't forget you have to add in the ruleset $2.99 and the D&D Character Customization Pack at $8.99. Then for some bizarre reason if you want to be a Sorcerer rather than a Wizard it cost $5.99 rather than $2.99. 

So it will cost you anything from $14.97 to $17.97, so actually it's more like 30% to 36%. If you ever change class it is going to add up really quickly, you only need to by a couple more of the "prestige" class and you'll be at 50% for three class.


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## Harry Dresden (Apr 8, 2015)

OTG_Wraith said:


> Here's a complete playthrough of the Lost Mine of Phandelver using Fantasy Grounds. (spoilers and language) this was done before the official D&D 5E support but it illustrates how Fantasy Grounds plays...
> 
> [video=youtube;4YyGfv-oa1M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YyGfv-oa1M&list=PLBW-SmHnjnPE4At_n9a0lrpbOLg1K-F4t[/video]



Do you have a video of a complete play through?


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## Bagpuss (Apr 8, 2015)

What is the experience link from a Wizard Player's perspective if...

a) They buy nothing, but the DM has bought the Ultimate License?
b) They buy nothing, but the DM has bought the Ultimate License and the D&D Complete Core Class Pack?
c) The DM has the Ultimate License, and the player has bought just the D&D Wizard Class Pack?
d) Both the Player and the DM have the standard license, but one has ruleset.

It's very unclear as to what a player may or may not need to buy based on what the DM has bought.

If the DM buys the Core Class Pack, do can all the characters in his game get access to that?

If the DM doesn't buy it but a player buys a class pack for his own class does the DM see the stuff the player does?


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## smiteworks (Apr 8, 2015)

The DM can choose to share anything they've purchased. If the DM shares the Complete Core Class or the D&D Basic Players, than any players connected to the game can access that material to build their characters while they are connected. If the players want to build their characters offline from the DM with the content, they will need the packs themselves. You can build a character without it, just like you would a paper character sheet. It just wouldn't have all the stuff pre-linked to reference material. Dragging spells to your character's action tab brings over the reference material and also pre-parses many of the built in spell effects, such as Damage, attacks and Saving Throws. 

All licenses of FG come with a 5E ruleset. The ruleset provides support for the game mechanics but has no data or artwork. The packs add the content pre-loaded for use.


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## Nylanfs (Apr 8, 2015)

Harry Dresden said:


> Do you have a video of a complete play through?



I linked to a bunch of videos last page, including a couple of 4 hour full game sessions.


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## TDarien (Apr 8, 2015)

Bagpuss said:


> What is the experience link from a Wizard Player's perspective if...
> 
> a) They buy nothing, but the DM has bought the Ultimate License?
> b) They buy nothing, but the DM has bought the Ultimate License and the D&D Complete Core Class Pack?
> ...




A)The player or DM will need to input everything for the character manually.
B) They will have full access to the Wizard rules (along with all other classes) only while connected to the DMs game
C) They will have full access to only  the Wizard rules, but it will be available on and offline.  Other players or the DM will not be able to access the content from the Wizard pack unless the player drag/drops it into the chat.
D) Virtually no difference between Ultimate/Free and standard/standard except that other players will also need standard licenses.  If the DM has the ruleset, all players can access it while connected to the DM, if the player has it, only that player can access it, but he can access it both on and offline.


If the DM buys the Core Class pack, All the players can access the content while connected to the game.

The DM cannont see the stuff the players buy that he does not own himself (except the players can drag/drop bits into the chat for everyone to see.


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## Nylanfs (Apr 8, 2015)

Bagpuss said:


> What is the experience link from a Wizard Player's perspective if...
> 
> a) They buy nothing, but the DM has bought the Ultimate License?
> b) They buy nothing, but the DM has bought the Ultimate License and the D&D Complete Core Class Pack?
> ...



The only person that needs the full complete packs are the DM. Unless you want to make you char before connecting to the GMs game. The player only needs a full license, if the gm doesn't have an ultimate license. If the gm has ultimate players and the two complete kits don't need anything.


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## damned (Apr 8, 2015)

one thing to note here - if the player has a "pack" that the GM doesnt have they probably cant use it online as the GM cant approve packs they dont have...
anything the gm has they can make available to the player(s) while she is connected to the GM.

you can totally play 5e without buying a thing. use this tool to get some data entered in (a lot of data actually) in about 5mins flat.https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?21835-D-amp-D-Basic-Rules-PDF-Parser

You can even do that with the demo version and host a session for one player.




FG Con 6 – April 17-19th 2015 - register at www.fg-con.com for all the latest info.​


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## Harry Dresden (Apr 8, 2015)

Nylanfs said:


> I linked to a bunch of videos last page, including a couple of 4 hour full game sessions.




Would you mind posting them again? I can't seem to locate them.


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## Mask_of_winter (Apr 8, 2015)

Harry Dresden said:


> Would you mind posting them again? I can't seem to locate them.



You mean you're Harry Dresden but you can't use a scrying spell? hehe

That's a joke btw


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## Nylanfs (Apr 8, 2015)

Nylanfs said:


> Actual play session






Nylanfs said:


> Walkthrough of CoreRPG






Nylanfs said:


> Lots of videos on their wiki




Here they are


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## Mask_of_winter (Apr 8, 2015)

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=fantasy+grounds+d&d+5e


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## Wolf118 (Apr 8, 2015)

Smiteworks,

Are you looking at future possibility of 'detaching' the character generator from the VTT, so that a person can just subscribe or purchase only character creation tools?


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## damned (Apr 8, 2015)

as good as character creation is in Fantasy Grounds dedicated tools still tend to do a more complete/detailed job. the character creation in Fantasy Grounds is designed around facilitating game play. i guess the main reason you are asking is because of the lack of such a tool for 5e.... id hazard a guess and say that smiteworks have a lot of other things on their schedule right now that are probably more core to where they are going than developing a cut down tool for char-gen.


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## Crb31 (Apr 8, 2015)

Would it possible to see the Lost Mines in actual play- I am curious about the random monsters and how they are created- and the character advancement.


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## damned (Apr 8, 2015)

these are both made previous to official content being available - it has after all been available for less than 24 hours...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8QDyc08xLE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YyGfv-oa1M




FG Con 6 – April 17-19th 2015 - register at www.fg-con.com for all the latest info.​


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## vandaexpress (Apr 8, 2015)

Just wanted to leave a quick review of this after I bought everything yesterday (As someone who formerly used Roll20 for helping enhance my F2F games with a projector and HDTV)

There's a lot of stuff in here that I like. The drag and drop character creation is very nice. And honestly, the best part was how easy it was to create a wizard and drop the spells into the spellbook and have the DCs, damage, etc auto-calculate. The combat tracker is significantly more robust than anything Roll20 offers out of the box. It's like an uber turn tracker. I can see it being extremely useful even in theater-of-the-mind style games. Targeting is amazing and well done, automatically decrementing hp etc is very cool.

You can achieve similar results in Roll20 but it requires knowledge of the API and programming, etc, which I have, but my time is valuable and the Roll20 API is notorious for periodically breaking down for whatever reason (see 'unexpected token s' errors).

I'm not sure if its just my inexperience, but the maps included in the phandelver module seem to be too low-res to use as battlemaps in the VTT. This isn't a big deal to me since I already own the high-res versions purchased direct from Mike Schley's website, but it could be a letdown for people who buy the module and expect it to be ready to play out of the box.

The default token selection for player characters is weak - they have a GREAT selection of portraits, and I was surprised that these portraits hadn't been converted into tokens. Maybe this is something they can add in the future. Again, not a huge problem since I already have an enormous token library I developed for Roll20.

The rules lookup is solid. They have everything you could possibly need to reference available right there.

Initial verdict is positive. I will post a more detailed review as I gain familiarity with the software. For now, I'll continue to use Roll20 until I'm comfortable enough with the new interface to be willing to run a live game with it.


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## Chris Stenger (Apr 8, 2015)

Way.  Too.  Expensive.  Looks totally cool, but there's just no way.


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## Nylanfs (Apr 8, 2015)

Mask_of_winter said:


> You mean you're Harry Dresden but you can't use a scrying spell? hehe
> 
> That's a joke btw




Bob's probably off on a tear through a porn film set.


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## damned (Apr 8, 2015)

hola [MENTION=6790472]vandaexpress[/MENTION] the maps by default open up so they fit. they have been scaled down to 35 or 50px per square (I wish they were all just 50px) just use your scroll wheel to zoom in. hold down the ctrl key to see all the pins pop up with links to all the encounters and story content right where you need it. this will be so much better/faster/easier than importing your own maps.


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## damned (Apr 8, 2015)

oh and you cant achieve any where near the combat tracker coolness in roll20. not today. the combat tracker does so much for you. saves so much time and effort for both GM and players.


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## Nylanfs (Apr 8, 2015)

vandaexpress said:


> The default token selection for player characters is weak - they have a GREAT selection of portraits, and I was surprised that these portraits hadn't been converted into tokens. Maybe this is something they can add in the future. Again, not a huge problem since I already have an enormous token library I developed for Roll20.




Check out the token sharing section of the forums, also there are some token packs that you can buy.


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## DMZ2112 (Apr 8, 2015)

I think my initial post in this thread still stands as written, but I do want to add three thoughts:

One, congratulations to SmiteWorks for landing this license;

Two, I'm sorry the license was so damn expensive, and I hope continuing with it proves to be economically feasible; and

Three, thank you for expending the time and effort to clarify so much information in this thread.

I am still not a customer, but for what it is worth you have earned my good will.


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## Zaukrie (Apr 8, 2015)

Any chance you will license 3rd party material?


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Apr 8, 2015)

If we ever stop playing face to face I'll be all over this product.  Looks sweet!


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## Torgaard (Apr 8, 2015)

vandaexpress said:


> I'm not sure if its just my inexperience, but the maps included in the phandelver module seem to be too low-res to use as battlemaps in the VTT. This isn't a big deal to me since I already own the high-res versions purchased direct from Mike Schley's website, but it could be a letdown for people who buy the module and expect it to be ready to play out of the box.




I whipped up alternate versions of the first two dungeon crawls in Lost Mine of Phandelver, which you can snag HERE. I've also started cranking away at Hoard of the Dragon Queen maps, which can be found HERE.

I use Devin Night's and Raymond Gaustandes tokens. Some of Raymond's come with the table. Devin had done a Kickstarter awhile back where he did a crapload of the standard monsters and NPC's, and his "Kickstarter Set" on his site is perfect for hitting the ground running with 5E. He's also got a whole bunch of really cool player tokens on his site as well, some of them free!


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## Barantor (Apr 8, 2015)

Here is the thing..  I can do the same things that FG does without the high cost of it on other programs. 

For those shopping around - 

Roll20 - browser based so it works on all OSes, also has an android/iphone app now. Lots of knowledge about this one so I won't cover it so much. Lots of utility and they charge for packs of maps and such if you want them but the base things are completely free.

Maptools - older python/java based program that works with all OSes. The DM has to learn a bit more than roll20 to use this, but it is completely free to use. Some community made utilities like embedded character sheets, maps and item sets. Has a great token creator and dice program that are also separate from the virtual tabletop part.

Tabletop Simulator - Newer program, works on all OSes. Full 3d table with physics and physical rolling with dice. This program won't do the math for you or track your character sheets, but as far as giving you the same experience as a home game it comes pretty close. Tons of community made content that you can download for free. Base game cost is $15 and each participant of the game has to pay that once to gain access, but no other cost is required. Comes with other things like cards and board games for those that like playing those on off nights.

Fantasy Grounds - topic of this conversation only works natively on Windows. Has licenses for 5E. Players play for free but are limited to what the DM has in his/her account. Large lifetime license cost or smaller subscriptions and add-on costs.


For me the choice was easy. If my players were willing to all pay $15 and buy tabletop simulator we used that and played things like cards against humanity and heroquest when a player was missing for D&D. I already have the books in physical form and I'm the DM so I'm not interested in digital tools linked to one program that I either have to pay more for than the original books, or upkeep a subscription like an MMO.

I don't care if it makes me use character sheet files or look things up in my books I already have at my computer, FG is too much of an expense to do something that I can do for WAY less cost.


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## kenmarable (Apr 8, 2015)

vandaexpress said:


> Just wanted to leave a quick review of this after I bought everything yesterday (As someone who formerly used Roll20 for helping enhance my F2F games with a projector and HDTV)
> 
> (snip)
> 
> Initial verdict is positive. I will post a more detailed review as I gain familiarity with the software. For now, I'll continue to use Roll20 until I'm comfortable enough with the new interface to be willing to run a live game with it.




Whether in this thread or another, I'd like to hear more in the future as you try it out more. I know FG is primarily geared towards a VTT, but like you, I would more likely consider using it to enhance F2F with a main screen on a TV for everyone with maps and images and then people on individual laptops. I was going to try demo licenses on a couple computers to see how it goes, but someone actually trying it for realsies for a similar purpose would of course be better.


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## smiteworks (Apr 8, 2015)

vandaexpress said:


> I'm not sure if its just my inexperience, but the maps included in the phandelver module seem to be too low-res to use as battlemaps in the VTT. This isn't a big deal to me since I already own the high-res versions purchased direct from Mike Schley's website, but it could be a letdown for people who buy the module and expect it to be ready to play out of the box.
> 
> The default token selection for player characters is weak - they have a GREAT selection of portraits, and I was surprised that these portraits hadn't been converted into tokens. Maybe this is something they can add in the future. Again, not a huge problem since I already have an enormous token library I developed for Roll20.




For the maps, we typically include a DM version of the map and a player version that hides the hidden stuff and is scaled for token placements. Some of the maps were actually for 10' per square instead of the more standard 5' squares for tactical maps. We generally try to find a good balance between the visual quality and the final size to make sure it loads quickly for a large number of connected players. Make sure that you hold down CTRL when you have a map open so you can see all the push-pins that are clickable. The encounters should then auto-place the bad guys where they start and into the combat tracker. For everything, we drive based off the combat tracker, so remember to add things to the combat tracker first and then drag from there to the map to hook up the auto-targeting and other "intelligence"

Here is a pic with the push-pins and the DM fog of war shown. 
View attachment 67796

Regarding the tokens based on the portraits, that is a good idea. Perhaps we can look at adding those in the near future. If you already have a bunch of tokens, you can create a tokens\host folder in your FG app directory and add them there. Sort into folders underneath there to sort them and then you can search by name as well. If you want players to have access to any of these tokens (not normally necessary), then you can put them under tokens\shared.

Thanks for sharing your feedback.


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## smiteworks (Apr 8, 2015)

Here is a quickly made video showcasing the character sheet and building a character using one of the available data packs. Note that you can enter these things yourself, but it does save more time.

[video=youtube;nurEMR4JJeU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nurEMR4JJeU[/video]


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## Agamon (Apr 8, 2015)

I'm a long time, if very irregular, user of FG.  When War of the Burning Sky first came out for 3.5e, I bought some FG licenses to play it online.  We didn't need to play online, we just wanted to try it out.  That campaign only lasted a half dozen sessions before player availability changed to the point of having to cancel the game.

I next used in 2011, when 3 of the players in my main group moved away.  We used to play Pathfinder.  While the software does some neat-o stuff, my biggest take away was that it got really cluttered, really fast.  I even tried double-screening it with my TV, and it still was hard to find things with the battle tracker, monster stats, map, dice, etc.  That game also didn't last long.  I mostly blame the ruleset the players whined for me to use, but the frustration of using FG didn't help.

Now I doubt all that can really be cleaned up at all, one needs all these things to run a game.  But has it been made easier to locate things when you have 8 or so windows open during a fight?

The point is likely moot as those players that moved away 5 years ago are now all back and we're about to resume playing tabletop after using Roll20 for a couple years.  But I am interested, as I have an FG license, and maybe using this with tabletop might prove useful...


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## smiteworks (Apr 8, 2015)

Here is a new video showing how you can enter in your own NPC records. Remember that if you get the data packs, you'll get all those monster already entered along with their full descriptions, their image you can share with your players and the tokens.

[video=youtube;f-POluSDHAc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-POluSDHAc[/video]


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## smiteworks (Apr 8, 2015)

Agamon said:


> Now I doubt all that can really be cleaned up at all, one needs all these things to run a game.  But has it been made easier to locate things when you have 8 or so windows open during a fight?




I recommend that DM's run with two monitors and stretch the screen across both. If you have a laptop, most of these support connecting a second monitor side by side with it. One tip is to drag items you frequently need to your various hotkey slots on the bottom of the screen. These hold anything from dice, modifier, macros, individual spells, library entries, map images, etc. For combat as a DM, you normally just need to be able to see the chat window, the map and the combat tracker. Nearly all of the monster abilities can be dragged from their combat tracker (CT) entry to a token on the map or to another listing in the CT. If you need more of the stats for an NPC, you click on their link to open the full NPC record, roll their skill or look something up and then re-close it. 

For most screenshots, I tend to open up a bunch of windows to show a bunch of different things at once. In practice, I try to keep my windows down to a minimum.


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## deactivatedadam (Apr 8, 2015)

*Clarification on rolling for stats*

Hi, I was hoping for a clarification on the process of rolling for stats. I was curious, at the bottom of the section where you set Roll 6 sets of 4 dice drop 1 etc.
Is there a reason  you still have to then go and grab four die to roll in the window. I would figure if im saying roll 6 sets, there would just be a "Roll" button that would roll the 6 sets instead of having to do it manually so they can all be done at once.
Can you set a macro to roll 6 sets of 4 and drop that on the window?

In general, Ive been waiting for Fantasy Grounds to get some official 5e products and i am ecstatic about this. The professional look of the theme and the frames are amazing and go a long way to making this my top VTT. I also love being able to manually edit just about anything I want. I got about halfway through parsing the PHB and gave up after contemplating going through the DMG and MM, nothing was particularly difficult, just a long slow climb up a mountain. I'm pretty happy I don't have to do it and appreciate all the work you have put into it.

One more question, when i add a magic item, say the staff of defense for example, will those ever add the powers/spells to the Ability section? In the past i have created my own abilities that essentially match what the staff can do, but it always feels clunky.

Alright, one more, any thought to adding a formal section for Background Specialty, it always feels orphaned.

Thanks


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## Doctor Futurity (Apr 8, 2015)

God said:


> That's a lot of filthy lucre, considering you can get all three dead-tree rulebook for about $100 on Amazon. But I guess in the digital age this kind of pricing scheme makes sense?




The digital content pricing scheme seems to match the way video games do it: you mark the price astronomically high, then regularly discount it with sales (FG sells on Steam, for example) that mark it down to something more realistic.

I'm curious now to see if this utility has any functional application at a regular table. I haven't used FG since 2006, but did one run very successful online campaign with it back then. VTT is not my preferred resource for gaming, though.....so to buy this I'd really need some demonstrations that it's got applicability in regular gaming as well.


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## smiteworks (Apr 8, 2015)

deactivatedadam said:


> Hi, I was hoping for a clarification on the process of rolling for stats. I was curious, at the bottom of the section where you set Roll 6 sets of 4 dice drop 1 etc.
> Is there a reason  you still have to then go and grab four die to roll in the window. I would figure if im saying roll 6 sets, there would just be a "Roll" button that would roll the 6 sets instead of having to do it manually so they can all be done at once.
> Can you set a macro to roll 6 sets of 4 and drop that on the window?



It fills the dice into the various slots as they are rolled but stops after each roll to calculate the final tally. Some people like to roll each die separately. You can make a 4 dice bucket and click it 6 times to roll them quickly.



deactivatedadam said:


> One more question, when i add a magic item, say the staff of defense for example, will those ever add the powers/spells to the Ability section? In the past i have created my own abilities that essentially match what the staff can do, but it always feels clunky.
> 
> Alright, one more, any thought to adding a formal section for Background Specialty, it always feels orphaned.




We have been discussing that sort of thing for magic items internally and it is partially why we haven't rolled out the DMG yet. I'm not sure what the answer is going to be, but that part doesn't feel as good as I think it could be eventually. 

I'll float the comment about the background specialty among the other two devs to see how we want to handle this. We've treated it mostly as a notation on the character for now since it doesn't really seem to change much mechanically.


----------



## tomBitonti (Apr 8, 2015)

Hi,

Lots of focus on 5E.  What are the options for FG + 4E, FG + 3.5E, or FG + PF?

Can anyone comment on the ability to create and update characters, and to customize monsters and treasure?

How hard is it to create or import custom maps?

Can you use most of the function but still have players roll to hit, save, and damage dice?  I've found automated rollers to take a *lot* of fun out of playing.  Luv to roll them dice!

Thx!

TomB


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## MadmanMike83 (Apr 8, 2015)

This seems like a great boon for people playing games over the internet but is a far cry from what was initially promised with DungeonScape. As rough as it was DungeonScape was centered around developing a tool to use _at the table_. I have to wonder if Wizard's has abandoned that plan entirely. While I love using OneNote as a DM there is definitely room for something that caters more directly to the needs of RPG players.


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## mserabian (Apr 8, 2015)

smiteworks said:


> For the maps, we typically include a DM version of the map and a player version that hides the hidden stuff and is scaled for token placements. Some of the maps were actually for 10' per square instead of the more standard 5' squares for tactical maps. We generally try to find a good balance between the visual quality and the final size to make sure it loads quickly for a large number of connected players. Make sure that you hold down CTRL when you have a map open so you can see all the push-pins that are clickable. The encounters should then auto-place the bad guys where they start and into the combat tracker. For everything, we drive based off the combat tracker, so remember to add things to the combat tracker first and then drag from there to the map to hook up the auto-targeting and other "intelligence"
> 
> Here is a pic with the push-pins and the DM fog of war shown.
> View attachment 67796
> ...





Hey guys… Bought the complete set yesterday and I really am enjoying playing around with things! One question in regard to your statement above about the maps and encounter placement. I'm not sure how this works. I can hold down control on the GM maps and see the pins but when I click on them it opens the encounter pane, but it doesn't place the NPCs… What am I doing wrong?

thanks 

mal


----------



## smiteworks (Apr 8, 2015)

tomBitonti said:


> Hi,
> 
> Lots of focus on 5E.  What are the options for FG + 4E, FG + 3.5E, or FG + PF?
> 
> ...




There is rule mechanic support for 3.5, 4E, 5E and Pathfinder out of the box. 3.5E and Pathfinder come with some lists of monsters and spells from the System Reference Documents available to use as-is or customize. You can also create your own items. See the video posted above for creating an NPC manually. 

Importing custom maps is easy. You drag it to your map window. The only gotcha is that it is nice if there is a predrawn grid on the map that the grid is exactly 50 pixels, 35 pixels or some other exact pixel size instead of 50.13 pixels per square. You lay the FG grid over top of the other grid over a single square and it rolls our virtual grid across the whole map. If it is different by 0.13 pixels, then you start to see it drift off over time. Some online map creators are great because the let you set the size per square, but other sources occasionally require you to manually shrink or expand the map to fit -- sometimes by different percentages vertically than horizontally.

Players can still roll their own dice. For instance, you can auto-roll initiative for all your players and the NPCs, or just the NPCs and let each play roll their own. It will automatically recognize the initative roll and adjust them into the right spot. The virtual dice rolling in FG is one of its strengths since it does a good job of simulating real dice -- even allowing players to customize their own dice colors.


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## smiteworks (Apr 8, 2015)

mserabian said:


> Hey guys… Bought the complete set yesterday and I really am enjoying playing around with things! One question in regard to your statement above about the maps and encounter placement. I'm not sure how this works. I can hold down control on the GM maps and see the pins but when I click on them it opens the encounter pane, but it doesn't place the NPCs… What am I doing wrong?
> 
> thanks
> 
> mal




Okay, so we normally opt to link those pushpins to a story entry that may have boxed text and other links to encounters, treasures, etc. Click the encounter link from the story entry and it will open the encounter with the list of monsters. You can decrease or increase the number of monsters appearing at this point or just use the default value. Click the button at the bottom of the encounter window to automatically place them on the map, add them to the combat tracker and roll their initiative. If you have the DM preference set to give them Max or Random HP, it will also redo each monster's hit points.  For your own maps and modules that you create in your campaign, you can use this same style or you could choose to link directly to the encounter instead of to the story first.


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## dmccoy1693 (Apr 8, 2015)

[MENTION=87795]smiteworks[/MENTION] Color me thrilled about this.


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## mserabian (Apr 8, 2015)

smiteworks said:


> Okay, so we normally opt to link those pushpins to a story entry that may have boxed text and other links to encounters, treasures, etc. Click the encounter link from the story entry and it will open the encounter with the list of monsters. You can decrease or increase the number of monsters appearing at this point or just use the default value. Click the button at the bottom of the encounter window to automatically place them on the map, add them to the combat tracker and roll their initiative. If you have the DM preference set to give them Max or Random HP, it will also redo each monster's hit points.  For your own maps and modules that you create in your campaign, you can use this same style or you could choose to link directly to the encounter instead of to the story first.




Cool !! Thanks, quick and helpful as always!!


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## RSKennan (Apr 8, 2015)

mserabian said:


> Hey guys… Bought the complete set yesterday and I really am enjoying playing around with things! One question in regard to your statement above about the maps and encounter placement. I'm not sure how this works. I can hold down control on the GM maps and see the pins but when I click on them it opens the encounter pane, but it doesn't place the NPCs… What am I doing wrong?
> 
> thanks
> 
> mal




I don't know how these were set up, but usually when you drag an encounter to the combat tracker it places the creatures where they belong.

Edit: should have refreshed the thread.


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## OTG_Wraith (Apr 8, 2015)

Harry Dresden said:


> Do you have a video of a complete play through?




The series is a complete play through of the LMoP module. I'm not sure how someone would fit playing through the entire module into a single video.


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## tomBitonti (Apr 8, 2015)

smiteworks said:


> There is rule mechanic support for 3.5, 4E, 5E and Pathfinder out of the box. 3.5E and Pathfinder come with some lists of monsters and spells from the System Reference Documents available to use as-is or customize. You can also create your own items. See the video posted above for creating an NPC manually.




Would that be *all* of what is on http://www.d20pfsrd.com/ (or a largish subset, since the content seems to be growing all of the time), or just "core" material?

3.5 (and Pathfinder) allow a lot of customization on monsters: Adding character levels, templates, customizing feats, and giving monsters magic items.  Can that be done, or are the monsters limited to "out of the book" instances?

Edit: This may be covered elsewhere, as FG + PF doesn't seem to be a new thing.  Any pointers to where this would already be covered?

Thx!

TomB


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## smiteworks (Apr 8, 2015)

tomBitonti said:


> Would that be *all* of what is on http://www.d20pfsrd.com/ (or a largish subset, since the content seems to be growing all of the time), or just "core" material?
> 
> 3.5 (and Pathfinder) allow a lot of customization on monsters: Adding character levels, templates, customizing feats, and giving monsters magic items.  Can that be done, or are the monsters limited to "out of the book" instances?
> 
> ...




Our base install comes with just a subset that was there when we first built it. It has grown tremendously since then, so our fans have compiled their own modules which contain pretty much everything that is freely available. You can customize further from there, although applying templates is not natively supported. You can edit anything there to make derivatives and copies. I did do a conversion for The Advanced Bestiary from Green Ronin that has a ton of templates and sample NPCs and there is a rudimentary template system I built for it as part of that package.

Here is the link with the various SRD content. 
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?16074-List-of-Modules


----------



## DandDsince76 (Apr 8, 2015)

I'm sure I saw this question earlier... But I hunted for it & can't find it again. Here goes:

Can I, or my players, print a hard-copy of a character sheet?

Thanks!


----------



## Nylanfs (Apr 8, 2015)

tomBitonti said:


> Hi,
> 
> Lots of focus on 5E.  What are the options for FG + 4E, FG + 3.5E, or FG + PF?
> 
> ...



To make a note here, if you can prove to any of the PFS adventure captains in the PFS section that you own a PFS AP (usually by emailing a screenshot of the PDF with the sales watermark) you can get the ap in FG format for free.


----------



## redrick (Apr 8, 2015)

MadmanMike83 said:


> This seems like a great boon for people playing games over the internet but is a far cry from what was initially promised with DungeonScape. As rough as it was DungeonScape was centered around developing a tool to use _at the table_. I have to wonder if Wizard's has abandoned that plan entirely. While I love using OneNote as a DM there is definitely room for something that caters more directly to the needs of RPG players.




I think that's kind of the point though. What is encouraging to me about this release isn't so much that "finally, here is a 5e product that I will use!" It's, "finally, Wizards seems to be licensing out to proven, existing developers making products designed to fulfill the needs of specific niches!" DungeonScape was a project that promised to Revolutionize Roleplaying Games. It sounded cool. But it didn't happen.

FG isn't the product for everybody, and it's not meant to be. The discussion here about purchasing FG as a way to get digital tools seems odd to me. That's like renting a car to listen to the radio in your driveway. Or, maybe a little bit more apt, buying a graphing calculator to balance your checkbook. The functionality might be there, but it's not the point of the product. I wouldn't complain about Dwarven Forge tiles because they have no utility for the way I game — over the internet. I just won't buy them. For many of us who game every week on the internet and spend a lot of time prepping for those games, the price-tag of FG seems reasonable, because saving even an hour of mindless prep every week is easily worth $100 or $250 or however you want to factor it. (I already pay $10/month for Roll20, so I don't see that as a barrier to entry for a competitor.) The cost would pay off after the first month. It's not the only factor in deciding which VTT I'll use, but it's certainly a point in FG's favor.

My entirely speculative takeaways from this announcement are:
* We might see more targeted products coming out with 5e support in the future, getting away from The One Tool to Rule Them All approach.
* FG didn't announce this product until they launched it. Or, if they did, they did so with very little fanfare that stayed off the enWorld radar. That might be at the request of WoTC after the DungeonScape collapse, or it might just be caution on the part of FG. That means there might very well be other products in development and with licensing agreements under works with Wizards that we won't know about until they are actually ready to go to market.


----------



## Sonny (Apr 8, 2015)

Serrrg said:


> This is indeed VERY expensive... and I am wondering, why??




Most likely high licensing fees would be the root cause of the cost.


----------



## JohnD (Apr 9, 2015)

Sonny said:


> Most likely high licensing fees would be the root cause of the cost.



Yes, heaven forbid companies wanting to make some profit from their work.  Nobody complaining about the cost would go to their employer and say "it's OK you don't need to pay me this week".

Not a shot at you; your response is very likely the reason.  Companies don't make money, people don't stay gainfully employed.

Frustrating but if people take an open mind they will see this is a great option for online play, which has application in face to face settings as well.


----------



## Mistwell (Apr 9, 2015)

Sonny said:


> Most likely high licensing fees would be the root cause of the cost.




The base product is the bulk of the cost ($150), and they always charge that for the base product whether you're playing FATE or Pathfinder or Savage Adventures or whatever.


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## JohnD (Apr 9, 2015)

That is simply not entirely accurate.  There are many more options for pricing for base FG than $150.

At the most expensive level nobody that ever connects to your game needs to pay anything.  No charge.  Ever.

I can appreciate everyone has their preference, but at least get your information right.


----------



## Kramodlog (Apr 9, 2015)

MadmanMike83 said:


> This seems like a great boon for people playing games over the internet but is a far cry from what was initially promised with DungeonScape. As rough as it was DungeonScape was centered around developing a tool to use _at the table_. I have to wonder if Wizard's has abandoned that plan entirely. While I love using OneNote as a DM there is definitely room for something that caters more directly to the needs of RPG players.




This is not a replacement for Dungeonscape. This most likely has been planned for a while. These guys have been coding for a longer time than the moment Dungeonscape was cancelled. 

WotC probably still wants to make some e-tools, just do not expect any word about until it goes live. Like Fantasy Ground did. With the cancellation of Dungeonscape and the cancellation of the of the Adventurer's Handbook, WotC wants to avoid over "promising" and under delivering. It certainly has merites considering WotC's history, even if no communications is not optimal.


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## Psikerlord# (Apr 9, 2015)

smiteworks said:


> Yes, you can create your own spell effects. You'll want to use similar syntax to the spells in the D&D basic rules or the Class Packs and then you'll see how it picks up on certain wordings and effects.




Wow OK that's pretty sweet. I downloaded the demo actually to give it a spin... I love it! 

I fear I will have to convert from Roll20! And I don't even use maps and grids and tokens much. FG just seems to have more free space. I like the chat on the left better than the right. Uploading and displaying pictures is a breeze and looks great. The dice rolls look great, and hotkeys/macros are easier to set up for the way I play/DM compared to roll20. 

I don't anticipate using the tracker much -  except for initiative - but it was very quick (a few seconds) to add a monster name/token to the tracker (without any details - if you want to input HP, AC, attacks etc then that would take a while). I should confess I bought fiery dragon digital tokens years ago for 4e, so I have a bunch of tokens already available. 

Just add voice skype ... and bam this thing is ready to go!  Course now I will have to check out the extras in the store, arrghhhh!


----------



## Nylanfs (Apr 9, 2015)

You can also spin the d20 on its tip like you can at the real table.


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## Rhenny (Apr 9, 2015)

JohnD said:


> That is simply not entirely accurate.  There are many more options for pricing for base FG than $150.
> 
> At the most expensive level nobody that ever connects to your game needs to pay anything.  No charge.  Ever.



Yup.  That's it man.  I started  FG for a couple months paying for the monthly, but since I was getting to use it for 1 or 2 sessions each week, and I knew my group was into it, I bought the lifetime ultimate.  It was totally worth it.  I know I'll be using it for years so I'm actually saving money.


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## Abbasax (Apr 9, 2015)

Nylanfs said:


> You can also spin the d20 on its tip like you can at the real table.




We truly live in miraculous times. *grin*


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## Dire Bare (Apr 9, 2015)

Mistwell said:


> The base product is the bulk of the cost ($150), and they always charge that for the base product whether you're playing FATE or Pathfinder or Savage Adventures or whatever.




Nope.

$150 is for the ultimate package. You can spend $39 for the basic package, and there are a couple of subscription options as well. And, if your DM has the ultimate package, you can connect for free.


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## Mistwell (Apr 9, 2015)

JohnD said:


> That is simply not entirely accurate.  There are many more options for pricing for base FG than $150.
> 
> At the most expensive level nobody that ever connects to your game needs to pay anything.  No charge.  Ever.
> 
> I can appreciate everyone has their preference, but at least get your information right.






Dire Bare said:


> Nope.
> 
> $150 is for the ultimate package. You can spend $39 for the basic package, and there are a couple of subscription options as well. And, if your DM has the ultimate package, you can connect for free.




Fair enough.  The context I was replying to was people adding up the cost including the ultimate package, and I thought it relevant to point out that a big chunk of that total was for the base use of the engine itself, not the D&D part of it.


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## Hussar (Apr 9, 2015)

On the pricing.  Kinda sorta.  150 bucks is actually pretty accurate.

40 bucks for the standard license
50 bucks for the Class Pack
50 bucks for the Monster Pack
50 bucks (presumably) for the DMG pack.

So, 200 dollars/DM is pretty much what this will cost.  For my group, with 6 DM's, that's 1200 dollars to play D&D.  You better be giving me a helluvalot of bang for my buck for 1200 dollars.  Even 200 dollars, which is pretty much what this is going to cost anyone who wants to get the full value out of the program, is darn steep.


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## smiteworks (Apr 9, 2015)

I thought it might be helpful if I posted a quick video walkthrough of what the Core Monster Pack or smaller $4.99 Monster Packs actually look like. Since you can still key all this info yourself, you'll have to decide if the data entry and indexed lists plus the images and tokens are worth it for you.

I apologize in advance for my voice and the occasion coughs. I actually got sick the day of the launch and still have a bit of it. 

[video=youtube;6b9BLbQ6ejw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6b9BLbQ6ejw[/video]


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## Harry Dresden (Apr 9, 2015)

smiteworks said:


> I thought it might be helpful if I posted a quick video walkthrough of what the Core Monster Pack or smaller $4.99 Monster Packs actually look like. Since you can still key all this info yourself, you'll have to decide if the data entry and indexed lists plus the images and tokens are worth it for you.
> 
> I apologize in advance for my voice and the occasion coughs. I actually got sick the day of the launch and still have a bit of it.
> 
> [video=youtube;6b9BLbQ6ejw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6b9BLbQ6ejw[/video]




I can't seem to get your demo to work. I've ran the installer 3 times and when I click on the exe file it just sits there for a moment and then nothing. I am running Windows 7 64 bit version.


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## Hollow Man (Apr 9, 2015)

I know you added race to the descriptions of the Core Class and Character Customization packs, but it's not listed in the description of the  Basic Rules Pack (it's only listed in the description as being in the Basic pdf that WotC provides to anyone free of charge). Are the four basic races included in the Basic Rules Pack?

-HM


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## Sunseeker (Apr 9, 2015)

Hussar said:


> On the pricing.  Kinda sorta.  150 bucks is actually pretty accurate.
> 
> 40 bucks for the standard license
> 50 bucks for the Class Pack
> ...




Right.  $190(40 base product, 50x3 for the core books) is what you will pay to play/run a custom 5th edition game with the rules currently out...by yourself.  $300($50x3 for 5th core material and $150 for license) a is what you will pay to pay that...with anyone besides yourself who didn't shell out their own $190.


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## smiteworks (Apr 9, 2015)

Hollow Man said:


> I know you added race to the descriptions of the Core Class and Character Customization packs, but it's not listed in the description of the  Basic Rules Pack (it's only listed in the description as being in the Basic pdf that WotC provides to anyone free of charge). Are the four basic races included in the Basic Rules Pack?
> 
> -HM




It includes those.


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## redrick (Apr 9, 2015)

Hussar said:


> On the pricing.  Kinda sorta.  150 bucks is actually pretty accurate.
> 
> 40 bucks for the standard license
> 50 bucks for the Class Pack
> ...




First of all, if you are rotating DMs, you might be better off just taking turns paying for the Ultimate subscription. $10/month means that you can get 2 years before you hit the cost of buying 6 basic licenses.

But, it is a fair question — is there a way to have multiple GMs and share content between these GMs? For instance, on Roll20, the subscription features offered to a campaign are determined by the *creator* of the campaign, not the GM. (Though I think the creator has to remain as a GM.) This way, you can create a campaign and then promote somebody else to GM to allow them to run a leg of the campaign, while allowing them to use your subscription features. Is something like this possible with FG? Is there a reasonable way for a group to share resources within one campaign?

I think rotating GM campaigns are probably the minority, but it is a great way to play and definitely something that should be supported and encouraged whenever possible. I'm really trying to push my Roll20 group to take a turn running brief one-shot adventures as interludes in between campaign legs while I am preparing the next big thing. I can set them up with a campaign containing all of my various NPC character sheets and tokens, just like a face-to-face GM could hand over her box of monster miniatures, dungeon tiles and Paizo flip-maps and say, "your turn!"


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## smiteworks (Apr 9, 2015)

shidaku said:


> Right.  $190(40 base product, 50x3 for the core books) is what you will pay to play/run a custom 5th edition game with the rules currently out...by yourself.  $300($50x3 for 5th core material and $150 for license) a is what you will pay to pay that...with anyone besides yourself who didn't shell out their own $190.




If a DM has the modules, the players don't need to buy them to access them while connected to the DM. Only in the case of 6 DMs all playing who want to own all the options does it start to add up there, since there isn't an option for DM's to share the content among themselves. Many DM heavy groups I'm aware of rotate DM's on a more monthly basis (if not longer) and they get a 1 month sub at $9.99 for FG during that time to let all the other DMs play for free. When they are ready to switch, they cancel their sub and the next DM picks up a sub. If you have a hiatus, you can skip time between re-subs too. Then you are just looking at whether or not each DM needs or wants to pick up each of the different packs. 

For the player packs specific to this group, it probably makes sense to pick up the PC Customization Pack ($9.99) + the pack for the type of character you want to play for each DM ($2.99-$5.99). Each DM might actually want the full Monster Pack, but some might be okay with entering a few manually and picking up just a celestials & fiends pack for their game ($4.99) or one or two of the others. 

It sounds like a few people are trying to find the most expensive possible solution where every player is also a DM who plans to play every single class in games when they are playing and they alternate between playing and DM'ing constantly throughout each week. If that actually does apply to you, then I'd say that the cost is most definitely worth it just so you can maximize your gaming time even further.


----------



## FormerlyHemlock (Apr 9, 2015)

JesterOC said:


> It is pretty expensive, but I am glad the option is there.




Me too! I'm glad they have a demo version. $150 for permanent ultimate license is... well, it's a lot, which is presumably why they have the mini-packs that you can buy instead, but if the tool is good enough it would be worth it to me. (Let's be honest, I sometimes spend more than that on an impulse-buy for some cool new gadget at Costco--might as well give the money to WotC instead, to support the hobby.) I'll check out the demo.

My main requirements are: line-of-sight and fog-of-war management; ability to handle large-scale battles cleanly (30 to 80 combatants); support for WE-GO initiative systems (a la Speed Factor from DMG) instead of the default IGOUGO; ability to auto-place units/terrain over a scattered area (trees in a forest, furniture in a castle, guards in a castle). I don't actually really care much about the rules content since I can track that in my head, but a tool which can do all or most of the above will be good enough to prevent me from writing my own. Here's hoping this one works.


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## hbarsquared (Apr 9, 2015)

I don't know if this is for me, but hot damn this is exciting!

One, the idea of WotC licensing out to a proven, successful, company.  I highly doubt this is in any way exclusive, and this bodes well for licenses for future platforms.

Two, although I'm not familiar with VTTs, Fantasy Grounds seems an excellent choice.  A user-friendly, professional, high-end option. It looks to have features that most others don't have.

Three, with regards to the cost, it makes complete sense to me.  FG is in no way required or a necessity - it is a uigh end luxury for online use, and you get what you pay for.  Dwarven Forge is an apt analogy.  Sure, I'd love physical terrain for my games, but I'm good with a battlemat, just as I don't need a VTT to play online with friends when there's Google Hangout.  But for those who want that experience, Dwarven Forge is worth the $100s investment, and I'd say FG is the same.  The complaints make no sense to me (especially considering the subscription options...)

Four, [MENTION=87795]smiteworks[/MENTION], I applaud you and your company.  Your participation here on ENWorld, your willingness to amswer questions and explain, your acceptance of feedback, the quick turnarounds on updates...  Some of the best "customer service" I've seen anywhere - I'd be happy buying a license just knowung it's goung to a professional company I now admire.

Thank you.


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## smiteworks (Apr 9, 2015)

hbarsquared said:


> Four, @_*smiteworks*_, I applaud you and your company.  Your participation here on ENWorld, your willingness to amswer questions and explain, your acceptance of feedback, the quick turnarounds on updates...  Some of the best "customer service" I've seen anywhere - I'd be happy buying a license just knowung it's goung to a professional company I now admire.
> 
> Thank you.




Thanks for the kind words. I lurk here quite often. There are only two of us in the company and one other official developer, but thankfully we are also supported by an active and helpful fanbase. It's our passion, for sure.


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## FormerlyHemlock (Apr 9, 2015)

[MENTION=87795]smiteworks[/MENTION], quick question for you if you don't mind: is FG going to be able to handle large maps gracefully? Say I want to track all 120 inhabitants of this mile-square cave complex. As a developer, would you say that scenaio is within scope for what you've built FG to handle, or would I run into UI issues around zooming and clutter?

For me that is really the killer app, because I really can't do that easily on a tabletop.


----------



## smiteworks (Apr 9, 2015)

emdw45 said:


> [MENTION=87795]smiteworks[/MENTION], quick question for you if you don't mind: is FG going to be able to handle large maps gracefully? Say I want to track all 120 inhabitants of this mile-square cave complex. As a developer, would you say that scenaio is within scope for what you've built FG to handle, or would I run into UI issues around zooming and clutter?
> 
> For me that is really the killer app, because I really can't do that easily on a tabletop.




That is somewhat hard to say for sure. We often do fairly large dungeons and we pre-place all the tokens as part of our building of the encounters. Even though they are pre-placed, they aren't actually placed onto the map until you decide to launch that encounter. Doing that keeps it from having to track so many things at once in the combat tracker. As a GM, I will occasionally trigger the monsters in adjoining rooms when players are in a combat, because it's possible that enemies nearby might respond to the sound of combat. I can reveal them as they become visible. If I have fog of war laid down, they can dart back into the unknown to auto-flip to invisible mode or I can turn them back invisible from the combat tracker.

For really large maps, I sometimes break these up into multiple, smaller maps. The Rise of Tiamat, for instance, has some very large maps that are 20' per square. Since I want those maps to be usable at 5' per square, the map obviously needs to get a lot bigger. Some other maps have multiple levels all shown on the same map. For those, I sometimes split them up and have 1 map per level. It might be worth just playing around with the demo some and your map of choice to see how well you think it works for your needs.


----------



## mattcolville (Apr 9, 2015)

tomBitonti said:


> Hi,
> 
> Lots of focus on 5E.  What are the options for FG + 4E, FG + 3.5E, or FG + PF?
> 
> ...




I've spend a few score hours in FG running 4E and let me tell you, I don't think people really understand how much of 4E was designed, from the ground up, to be played on a VTT. But once you play via FG2 with all the data you realize how much better the game is this way and you understand what a colossal blow to RPGs the death of that dude in charge of the 4E e-tools was.

I.e., it's aces, go for it.

That being said, you need the data. Valeros over on the forums made an EXCELLENT tool for scrubbing the DDI for the 4E data, but I have no idea if that stuff still works.


----------



## FormerlyHemlock (Apr 9, 2015)

smiteworks said:


> For really large maps, I sometimes break these up into multiple, smaller maps. The Rise of Tiamat, for instance, has some very large maps that are 20' per square. Since I want those maps to be usable at 5' per square, the map obviously needs to get a lot bigger. Some other maps have multiple levels all shown on the same map. For those, I sometimes split them up and have 1 map per level. It might be worth just playing around with the demo some and your map of choice to see how well you think it works for your needs.




Thanks. I've watched some videos now, and between those and your description above, I have a good feeling that this will work for me. I'll do some more research but it's 75-80% likely you've got a new customer in me. Thanks!


----------



## MonsterEnvy (Apr 9, 2015)

I am only able to play D&D online and this is pretty much exactly want I want for it. Added on once my next pay sub comes in Money won't really be an issue. So yeah you probably got a customer out of me as well.


----------



## Jan van Leyden (Apr 9, 2015)

First, let me join the choir praising [MENTION=87795]smiteworks[/MENTION] for his appearance here and his willingness to answer all of our questions!

Coming from (and still using) MapTool and 4e, my questions regarding they way spells are implemented are based on experience. In my weekly use as player and DM I find it hard to memorize the border between automated actions and manual ones. We actually toned down our MapTool automation to make it more clear. But of course it feels weird to manually set a status effect and apply the appropriate rules when playing at a computer.

Regarding the price one might consider the history of FG. I don't know exactly when it was published, but it has a long history of being continually developed. Compared to MapTool, which has been pretty much dormant for years, this is a big plus IMHO. Plus the fact of licenses being lifetime makes the price much more palpable in this context.

Yes, you can do - and many people do so - achieve a lot of these things in MapTool as well, and there are many frameworks around to get you started. In a way, FG provides a convenience you pay for, but regarding the hassle to get MapTool - with its but ugly scripting language - to comparable functionality, the price seems fair to me.

Okay, so if you get me either shared DMing with a single ultimate license or dynamic lighting, you'll have won a customer!


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## Hussar (Apr 9, 2015)

shidaku said:


> Right.  $190(40 base product, 50x3 for the core books) is what you will pay to play/run a custom 5th edition game with the rules currently out...by yourself.  $300($50x3 for 5th core material and $150 for license) a is what you will pay to pay that...with anyone besides yourself who didn't shell out their own $190.




That's not quite right. The other players could shell out 40 bucks and they'd be fine.


----------



## Hussar (Apr 9, 2015)

Oh. I never considered just rotating an ultimate sub.  That would work. You don't need any license to prep stuff on your own do you?  

That makes it much more attractive. Thanks.

/edit for stupid autocorrect. Wtf is a "rot stating"?


----------



## Nylanfs (Apr 9, 2015)

redrick said:


> But, it is a fair question — is there a way to have multiple GMs and share content between these GMs? For instance, on Roll20, the subscription features offered to a campaign are determined by the *creator* of the campaign, not the GM. (Though I think the creator has to remain as a GM.) This way, you can create a campaign and then promote somebody else to GM to allow them to run a leg of the campaign, while allowing them to use your subscription features. Is something like this possible with FG? Is there a reasonable way for a group to share resources within one campaign?




Yes, your campaign is your campaign. Just zip up the campaign folder and email to the new GM.


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## transtemporal (Apr 9, 2015)

27 different products? TWENTY SEVEN? Really?


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## Reynard (Apr 9, 2015)

transtemporal said:


> 27 different products? TWENTY SEVEN? Really?




Yeah. Choices and options are such a drag!


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## Nylanfs (Apr 9, 2015)

It's broken down so if players didn't want the whole book could get what they need as they needed it.


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## Shasarak (Apr 9, 2015)

Osgood said:


> Good for those who use a virtual tabletop, but it's pretty useless to me. I was hoping for a tablet app to use around a physical table, similar to what Dungeonscape/Morningstar was supposed to be.




That pretty much mirrors my position.  And again good to see something starting to come out.


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## damned (Apr 9, 2015)

[MENTION=2525]Mistwell[/MENTION] - the bulk of the other stuffs pricing goes to the good folks who wrote the other games. the base product, the engine, the smarts - these all have value too and these were written by SmiteWorks. They deserve to get paid too. The price is what it is. Its not for everyone. For me, hands down its a great application and great community. Fantasy Grounds allowed me to start gaming again after 25+ years away from it.


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## damned (Apr 9, 2015)

[MENTION=6787650]emdw45[/MENTION] in my experience I avoid massive maps. other gms will use them. i also wont usually have every single person loaded and active on the map at the same time. i use encounters, lots of them. and i use pins to link the encounters to their locations. you have a room with an encounter (ohh look there is a nice red pin - click it and it displays the encounter - click add and the tokens appear in place and the critters appear in the combat tracker), and the encounter is noisy so the dudes in the next room (look - another pin - ohhh its another encounter) come charging in. click the pin - maybe adjust the numbers - then add to combat tracker and we got ourselves a real fight now! so the pcs clean up and are feeling pretty good. but that *was noisy*. they skip out the side door (the gm clicks another pin) and Gruumuth and his friends are grinning their toothy grins at you 
thats how I have my 100 potential folk all ready on my map. but not cluttering everything up waaaay before I need them.


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## Sunseeker (Apr 9, 2015)

Hussar said:


> That's not quite right. The other players could shell out 40 bucks and they'd be fine.




So only one person at the table needs to have the "books" in order for anyone who can access them, to use them?


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## smiteworks (Apr 9, 2015)

shidaku said:


> So only one person at the table needs to have the "books" in order for anyone who can access them, to use them?




If the DM has them, (s)he can share them with the players that connect to the game. Players can't share with other players though.


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## Mask_of_winter (Apr 9, 2015)

shidaku said:


> So only one person at the table needs to have the "books" in order for anyone who can access them, to use them?



Only the GM needs the books. But then again, the players will only have access to them while connected to his table. If they want to work on their character "offline" they need to own the material as well.


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## Nylanfs (Apr 9, 2015)

shidaku said:


> So only one person at the table needs to have the "books" in order for anyone who can access them, to use them?




Not quite, the GM has to have the book and shared them, but they are only accessed when connected to the GM's campaign.


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## Reynard (Apr 9, 2015)

How does communication work? (I have not had a chance to watch any of the videos.) Is it built into the program or do you have to use another chat system or program to make it work? Thanks.


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## Askaval30 (Apr 9, 2015)

Reynard said:


> How does communication work? (I have not had a chance to watch any of the videos.) Is it built into the program or do you have to use another chat system or program to make it work? Thanks.




No voice chat built in (yet), however my group has always used Skype to great effect.

Edit: text chat is however fully developed, to the point of allowing the DM to use a different personality for each of the NPCs. You can also send private messages to individual players and fonts that only some players can read (it appears like gibberish to the other players, good to simulate elven/draconic/other languages)


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## Lwaxy (Apr 9, 2015)

Way too expensive for me so I won't be able to run 5e on FG. But it's good the option is there.


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## FormerlyHemlock (Apr 9, 2015)

Mask_of_winter said:


> Only the GM needs the books. But then again, the players will only have access to them while connected to his table. If they want to work on their character "offline" they need to own the material as well.




It sounds like players can just enter their data manually as well, instead of buying the content packs.


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## Torgaard (Apr 9, 2015)

Mask_of_winter said:


> Only the GM needs the books. But then again, the players will only have access to them while connected to his table. If they want to work on their character "offline" they need to own the material as well.




That being said, I pretty much keep my table up 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for my players. I guess I've never really noticed an impact on any other programs I run at the same time. I'll play MMO's like ESO, SWtOR, stuff like that, and they seem to run just fine. Though I do have a reasonably beefy gaming rig.

I'll also typically put a "Training Dummy" on the Combat Tracker. I'll also plop a token for it on the battlemap we were using last session. It looks like THIS).  I'll give it like 5000 HP's so that if they want to login and mess around with the mechanics of their character, play around with attacks, stuff like that - they can go crazy. Or they can make another character and monkey around. One or two of my players tends to create endless characters. Just for the helluvit. Just cuz it's fun. They'll do what we all do (I assume) and get hit by some sudden inspiration for a cool character concept, and off they go! I'll walk past the computer and there they are, just rollin' away, grabbing equipment for their character, stuff like that.

That might be interesting tidbit of information by the way: as a client, you can create and run multiple characters at the same time, in that one session. You don't need to like, fire up the software multiple times or anything like that.


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## Darrius_Adler (Apr 9, 2015)

So... $200 to be able to be able to actually play with friends (so they do not need to all buy $40 licenses or subscribe to a service just to play in one game) and actually have the 5e rule set?  At that price tag I think the old fashion pencil and paper works just fine, or putting text based sheets into roll20.

I can't tell if the DM owning the 5e rule set allows all the players for his game to use it for character creation or if they all have to buy the ruleset as well.


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## smiteworks (Apr 9, 2015)

Darrius_Adler said:


> So... $200 to be able to be able to actually play with friends (so they do not need to all buy $40 licenses or subscribe to a service just to play in one game) and actually have the 5e rule set?  At that price tag I think the old fashion pencil and paper works just fine, or putting text based sheets into roll20.
> 
> I can't tell if the DM owning the 5e rule set allows all the players for his game to use it for character creation or if they all have to buy the ruleset as well.




This was just answered a few posts above, but the DM can share purchased content with players who connect to their game. If they want it while offline from the DM, they need to purchase it as well. The 5E ruleset is included with all licenses -- but it has zero data pre-loaded, much like what you would get with any other VTT, or with FG before the D&D license was acquired.

There is a sub option for $9.99 that let's the DM's group play for free if that works better. It should line up with the Mentor level sub for Roll20. On the plus side, if you decide that you'd rather have things pre-loaded for you, you can buy pieces or parts instead of keying them in. The D&D Basic Rules pack is only $2.99 and gives you a new graphical theme, 4 classes, equipment, 4 races and 120 spells already pre-loaded. All of our licenses come with a bunch of tokens, some portraits and battlemaps. Each of the licensed D&D content above the Basic Rules comes with either additional tokens, maps or portraits as well.


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## smiteworks (Apr 9, 2015)

I posted some videos up-thread that show what it is like to enter your own data. You now just have the option to have all that professionally done for you.


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## redrick (Apr 9, 2015)

Darrius_Adler said:


> So... $200 to be able to be able to actually play with friends (so they do not need to all buy $40 licenses or subscribe to a service just to play in one game) and actually have the 5e rule set?  At that price tag I think the old fashion pencil and paper works just fine, or putting text based sheets into roll20.
> 
> I can't tell if the DM owning the 5e rule set allows all the players for his game to use it for character creation or if they all have to buy the ruleset as well.




No.

$10/month for the DM to subscribe and gift a subscriptions to friends.

$50 if the DM wants the complete monster pack. If the DM isn't sure about staying with the system, probably makes more sense to buy a few a la carte packages.

Players can each pay $4 to buy their respective class packs. Think of it like buying a new miniature when you switch from a halfling rogue to a tiefling warlock. Or chipping in for beer for the table.

That's $60 for the first month, and then $10/month from there on out. If you know you'll be using it for more than 15 months, you can spring for the perpetual license of $150.

If your friends don't want to cough up the one-time cost of $4, they can enter in their class information by hand, just like they would do with pen and paper.

If that's still more money than you want to spend, that's fine, but looking at the Deluxe package and saying, "too much money!" is pretty misleading.


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## Mistwell (Apr 9, 2015)

damned said:


> [MENTION=2525]Mistwell[/MENTION] - the bulk of the other stuffs pricing goes to the good folks who wrote the other games. the base product, the engine, the smarts - these all have value too and these were written by SmiteWorks. They deserve to get paid too. The price is what it is. Its not for everyone. For me, hands down its a great application and great community. Fantasy Grounds allowed me to start gaming again after 25+ years away from it.




There was no value judgement in what I wrote, I was just pointing out how the costs were allocated.  The claim was made that it was priced so high because WOTC was taking a cut.  I am sure WOTC is taking a cut, I am not sure how much, but I am also sure that the bulk of the $250 cost people were pointing out has nothing to do with WOTC as $150 of that $250 cost people had calculated exists with or without WOTC products.  That was my only point.


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## Darrius_Adler (Apr 9, 2015)

redrick said:


> No.
> 
> $10/month for the DM to subscribe and gift a subscriptions to friends.
> 
> ...




I missed seeing the Ultimate Subscription listing though in general I am not a fan of subscription based software.  I prefer to own something because in the end you tend to pay far more for something that is a subscription than if you just purchase the item outright.

I am not a subscriber on roll20.


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## Darrius_Adler (Apr 9, 2015)

smiteworks said:


> This was just answered a few posts above, but the DM can share purchased content with players who connect to their game. If they want it while offline from the DM, they need to purchase it as well. The 5E ruleset is included with all licenses -- but it has zero data pre-loaded, much like what you would get with any other VTT, or with FG before the D&D license was acquired.
> 
> There is a sub option for $9.99 that let's the DM's group play for free if that works better. It should line up with the Mentor level sub for Roll20. On the plus side, if you decide that you'd rather have things pre-loaded for you, you can buy pieces or parts instead of keying them in. The D&D Basic Rules pack is only $2.99 and gives you a new graphical theme, 4 classes, equipment, 4 races and 120 spells already pre-loaded. All of our licenses come with a bunch of tokens, some portraits and battlemaps. Each of the licensed D&D content above the Basic Rules comes with either additional tokens, maps or portraits as well.




Thank you for the clarification on how the rule set works!


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## redrick (Apr 9, 2015)

Darrius_Adler said:


> I missed seeing the Ultimate Subscription listing though in general I am not a fan of subscription based software.  I prefer to own something because in the end you tend to pay far more for something that is a subscription than if you just purchase the item outright.
> 
> I am not a subscriber on roll20.




If you plan on using the software at least once a month for 16 different months, than $150 is a fair price for a piece of software that provides you utility for that long, especially considering that $110 of that price tag is _so that you can let your friends use it for free._

I am a subscriber to Roll20, and I pay $10/month so that other people can use it for free. I like the extra features, but, at the end of the day, I appreciate that there is a zero-cost entry point because it guarantees me the broadest possible pool for finding other people to play in my games. On the other hand, if I had a group lined up and wanted to use Fantasy Grounds to play, I would have no qualms whatsoever telling them to pony up either the $44 ($40 for perpetual license and $4 for class pack) so that they could play in my campaign til the end of time, or $4/month, which becomes more costly after 10 months.

That's like going out for drinks twice. Or once on some nights and in some towns. Or inviting my friends to a sports game. Or going to 4 sessions of D&D encounters at my local gaming store.

I mean, it's fine. There's no reason whatsoever to spend money on a product that you don't feel you need. If a cheaper alternative gives you what you need and you don't care about the extra features, that's great! But, for many people, the time saving is real and the cost is not that great when you see it as something that is being spread out over a year or more of gameplay. And, if you don't plan to use it that much, the subscription is the only smart way to go.

On a side note, I see a lot of negatives about the subscription model here. It has its drawbacks, but it's not entirely bad for the consumer. More money? Probably. But, on the other hand, you're paying a developer to keep making _the product that you already use_ useful to you. It puts the emphasis on consistent support, improvements and usability, instead of flashy gimmicks and planned obsolescence that say, "how could you possibly be using version 5 now that version 6 is out?"


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## Mistwell (Apr 9, 2015)

redrick said:


> If you plan on using the software at least once a month for 16 different months, than $150 is a fair price for a piece of software that provides you utility for that long, especially considering that $110 of that price tag is _so that you can let your friends use it for free._
> 
> I am a subscriber to Roll20, and I pay $10/month so that other people can use it for free. I like the extra features, but, at the end of the day, I appreciate that there is a zero-cost entry point because it guarantees me the broadest possible pool for finding other people to play in my games. On the other hand, if I had a group lined up and wanted to use Fantasy Grounds to play, I would have no qualms whatsoever telling them to pony up either the $44 ($40 for perpetual license and $4 for class pack) so that they could play in my campaign til the end of time, or $4/month, which becomes more costly after 10 months.
> 
> ...




The majority of comments in this thread indicate that people think the pricing is confusing and/or too high for them, for whatever reason.  Maybe FG is fine with that, and view themselves as a high-end premium product.  But if their intent is to become a more broadly-accepted platform than simply a premium product, they probably need to either reconsider the marketing messages in their pricing page, or the prices themselves, or both.

Maybe they've broken things down to too fine a level and it scares people off seeing all those charges (which some people view as nit-picking, like an airline charging for luggage) for things that appear to be pretty basic to using a system like that.

Maybe they'd get a better overall reaction if they only offered the subscription model up front and the individual charges elsewhere.  Or maybe just "PHB" for players, and "DM's Set" for DMs, and not break down all those classes and BASIC and all that, or leave that on some other page if people want to get into individual charges.

Maybe it's just a matter of spelling things out a bit clearer to get rid of some of the confusion - I see a LOT of confusion in this thread over what it costs.

Maybe they are charging too much, and they should set the "sale" price as the regular price and get rid of those sales (instead of the JC Penny model they appear to have chosen right now).

I don't know - but it sure looks like the very common reaction to seeing their pricing page is either confusion, sticker shock, or both. Again, maybe that's fine for FG and they view themselves as a high-end premium product that isn't intended to appeal to a broader audience.  But if that's not the intended approach, they should probably consider some changes (either to the tone, or the pricing, or both).


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## transtemporal (Apr 9, 2015)

Reynard said:


> Yeah. Choices and options are such a drag!




Hey, I'm all for choice when the choices are meaningful but this is not. When you buy the core books, its not possible to just buy the wizard class and even if you could, why would you? This level of "choice" creates confusion, especially if you're new to the game and you're not sure what you need.


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## mattcolville (Apr 9, 2015)

transtemporal said:


> Hey, I'm all for choice when the choices are meaningful but this is not. When you buy the core books, its not possible to just buy the wizard class and even if you could, why would you?




Because you're going to play a Wizard.

I think most people, I think the _vast majority of players_ pay for the whole Player's Handbook but only ever use a handful of classes from it. If they could get the content they actually use, cheaper, why wouldn't they?


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## transtemporal (Apr 9, 2015)

mattcolville said:


> Because you're going to play a Wizard.
> 
> I think most people, I think the _vast majority of players_ pay for the whole Player's Handbook but only ever use a handful of classes from it. If they could get the content they actually use, cheaper, why wouldn't they?




Nevermind. Someone up thread answered pretty satisfactorily (if you don't know whether you're going to like the game, grabbing a few starter pieces is probably a better route) so I'm good.


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## Reynard (Apr 10, 2015)

redrick said:


> I am a subscriber to Roll20, and I pay $10/month so that other people can use it for free...[snip] On the other hand, if I had a group lined up and wanted to use Fantasy Grounds to play, I would have no qualms whatsoever telling them to pony up either the $44 ($40 for perpetual license and $4 for class pack) so that they could play in my campaign til the end of time, or $4/month, which becomes more costly after 10 months.




What am I missing? FG is priced at the same place -- you pay $10/month for the Ultimate so your friends can play for free. What's the difference?


----------



## redrick (Apr 10, 2015)

Reynard said:


> What am I missing? FG is priced at the same place -- you pay $10/month for the Ultimate so your friends can play for free. What's the difference?




Oh, sorry, might not have been clear. I mean that _anybody_ can play it for free, and the reason they can is because some of us pay for the subscription. I enjoy the perks that the subscription provides, because I enjoy programming in my spare time and there are some existing scripts people have written that expand the functionality of the software in useful ways. But I also see my subscription as helping to support the software and the servers that I use every week to play my game. That being said, there's nothing that requires me or anybody else to purchase that subscription in order to enjoy 90% of the software's features, create their own campaigns, invite people, etc.

So, yeah, I'm paying the same on Roll20 that I would pay on FG to allow my group to keep playing for free. I like Roll20 a lot, though it has some quirks and flaws. I think the community is great and brings a lot of value to the service. On the other hand, I'm interested in the possibilities for shorter prep that Fantasy Grounds might provide. I intend to do some experimentation with it.


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## Reynard (Apr 10, 2015)

redrick said:


> Oh, sorry, might not have been clear. I mean that _anybody_ can play it for free, and the reason they can is because some of us pay for the subscription. I enjoy the perks that the subscription provides, because I enjoy programming in my spare time and there are some existing scripts people have written that expand the functionality of the software in useful ways. But I also see my subscription as helping to support the software and the servers that I use every week to play my game. That being said, there's nothing that requires me or anybody else to purchase that subscription in order to enjoy 90% of the software's features, create their own campaigns, invite people, etc.
> 
> So, yeah, I'm paying the same on Roll20 that I would pay on FG to allow my group to keep playing for free. I like Roll20 a lot, though it has some quirks and flaws. I think the community is great and brings a lot of value to the service. On the other hand, I'm interested in the possibilities for shorter prep that Fantasy Grounds might provide. I intend to do some experimentation with it.




Gotcha. I am going to give FG a try but it will be my first VTT. I was actually toying with the idea of trying Roll20 but then this came up and, frankly, I have the resources to spend on the automation is appears FG grants. And since time is money...


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## redrick (Apr 10, 2015)

Mistwell said:


> The majority of comments in this thread indicate that people think the pricing is confusing and/or too high for them, for whatever reason.  Maybe FG is fine with that, and view themselves as a high-end premium product.  But if their intent is to become a more broadly-accepted platform than simply a premium product, they probably need to either reconsider the marketing messages in their pricing page, or the prices themselves, or both.
> 
> Maybe they've broken things down to too fine a level and it scares people off seeing all those charges (which some people view as nit-picking, like an airline charging for luggage) for things that appear to be pretty basic to using a system like that.
> 
> ...




Hmm. You are right that some of the confusion here is honest confusion that maybe Fantasy Grounds should work to address in their promotional material. I'll leave that to them as to how they want do deal with it, though we've already seen them responding to comments on this forum with clarifications on their website. That's not my area of expertise. I did not find the pricing that confusing, but I was also already familiar and interested in the _kind_ of product that they are selling. A number of the people complaining about the prices on this thread are people who actually aren't that interested in Virtual Tabletops anyway.


----------



## Psikerlord# (Apr 10, 2015)

The only thing I wish FG had was a "Looking for group" ability like Roll20. 

Otherwise I think FG is better all round for roughly the same $10/month subscription (I currently subscribe to roll20, but will be making the switch to FG this weekend). Roll20 does have video and voice chat built in, but ime, Skype works better and more reliably, so we've never really used that aspect of Roll20. So we can switch to the much prettier FG system, still use Skype for voice/video, for the same price. And then if we want to add all these packs we can do that over time if we choose. Note I am a fan of theatre of the mind style combat, so dynamic lighting and so on is not of interest to me.


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## Mask_of_winter (Apr 10, 2015)

Psikerlord# said:


> The only thing I wish FG had was a "Looking for group" ability like Roll20.
> 
> Otherwise I think FG is better all round for roughly the same $10/month subscription (I currently subscribe to roll20, but will be making the switch to FG this weekend). Roll20 does have video and voice chat built in, but ime, Skype works better and more reliably, so we've never really used that aspect of Roll20. So we can switch to the much prettier FG system, still use Skype for voice/video, for the same price. And then if we want to add all these packs we can do that over time if we choose.




The looking for group is called the Guild House: http://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?40-Guild-House


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## Nylanfs (Apr 10, 2015)

redrick said:


> Oh, sorry, might not have been clear. I mean that _anybody_ can play it for free, and the reason they can is because some of us pay for the subscription. I enjoy the perks that the subscription provides, because I enjoy programming in my spare time and there are some existing scripts people have written that expand the functionality of the software in useful ways. But I also see my subscription as helping to support the software and the servers that I use every week to play my game. That being said, there's nothing that requires me or anybody else to purchase that subscription in order to enjoy 90% of the software's features, create their own campaigns, invite people, etc.
> 
> So, yeah, I'm paying the same on Roll20 that I would pay on FG to allow my group to keep playing for free. I like Roll20 a lot, though it has some quirks and flaws. I think the community is great and brings a lot of value to the service. On the other hand, I'm interested in the possibilities for shorter prep that Fantasy Grounds might provide. I intend to do some experimentation with it.




Just a note, all your data on Roll20 is on *their[\b] servers. With FG your campaign, images, tokens and such are on your computer. And if you change GM's but want to continue the campaign you can simply email the new gm the campaign folder and pick up where you left off.*


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## dd.stevenson (Apr 10, 2015)

Mistwell said:


> The majority of comments in this thread indicate that people think the pricing is confusing and/or too high for them, for whatever reason.  Maybe FG is fine with that, and view themselves as a high-end premium product.  But if their intent is to become a more broadly-accepted platform than simply a premium product, they probably need to either reconsider the marketing messages in their pricing page, or the prices themselves, or both. (snip)




It seems clear (to me, at least) that they view their product as competing with other steam games, especially the mid-range, sub triple-A products that are DLC-driven. (Think of a Paradox game, for example.)

If they aim to compete with roll20 beyond the Steam platform, then they're hiding it pretty well.


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## redrick (Apr 10, 2015)

Reynard said:


> <snip> And since time is money...




Amen to that.

Yes, I followed your earlier thread exploring virtual tabletops as an option. I love a lot about Roll20 and think their team is very responsive and active about expanding the software with new features. I also love that the software is very much geared towards flexibly supporting as many different applications as possible, though some of this comes at the expense of the more sophisticated automation. I love that the community is huge and that I can get several thoughtful responses to a Looking for Group announcement in a couple of days.

I do not love spending my sunday afternoon coding in monster and NPC stats and macros.

I'm really looking forward to an upcoming thread on this site that does some serious comparisons between Roll20 and FG, with a lot of contributions from the folks now who are making the switch.

I also hope that, at some point, way opens for Roll20 to provide some sort of content support for D&D 5e. I'd happily pay $50 to have all the Monster Manual tokens pre-coded with attack macros, saving throw macros, trait descriptions, etc. That would be an incredible value. Unfortunately, I think Roll20 is probably a ways off from that, as they only just demoed their first "compendium" style system, and it is using Pathfinder (because of OGL) as the test case.


----------



## transtemporal (Apr 10, 2015)

I don't suppose anyone has posted a link to a description of the varying license types and what they include? Or a handy diagram? 

I read the FAQ but it just described what a subscription is and how to cancel it, which is cool but doesn't really describe what the subscription includes. 

Like say as a DM I want to run a series of homebrew one-shots for 5e that my players can join, that for reasons of simplicity I'd rather just pay for. Whats the option best for me?


----------



## JohnnyZemo (Apr 10, 2015)

mattcolville said:


> Because you're going to play a Wizard.
> 
> I think most people, I think the _vast majority of players_ pay for the whole Player's Handbook but only ever use a handful of classes from it. If they could get the content they actually use, cheaper, why wouldn't they?




That's fair, I guess, but as a DM I can't imagine buying just buying "Constructs and Elementals" or "Celestials and Fiends."  I mean, does anyone run a campaign where the characters only fight a single type of monster?


----------



## transtemporal (Apr 10, 2015)

Nylanfs said:


> Just a note, all your data on Roll20 is on *their[\b] servers. With FG your campaign, images, tokens and such are on your computer. And if you change GM's but want to continue the campaign you can simply email the new gm the campaign folder and pick up where you left off.*



*

For you that seems to be a plus, for me, not so much.

I want to be able to flip over a campaign to another dm by selecting the campaign from a drop box and click "reassign to".

I don't want to root around in mydocuments folders, finding the files, manually zipping them and sending them to someone, who then has to do the process in reverse for it to work. 

Theres a knowledge barrier there for some people and its vulnerable to all the issues of manual steps and local harddrives crapping out. 

Cloud all the way I say.*


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## Mask_of_winter (Apr 10, 2015)

transtemporal said:


> For you that seems to be a plus, for me, not so much.
> 
> I want to be able to flip over a campaign to another dm by selecting the campaign from a drop box and click "reassign to".
> 
> ...




Until the servers are down. Then you can't play. With FG, the GM is the server. If Smiteworks went offline tomorrow I'd still have all my stuff and could keep on using the last build indefinitely.


----------



## Nylanfs (Apr 10, 2015)

transtemporal said:


> I don't suppose anyone has posted a link to a description of the varying license types and what they include? Or a handy diagram?
> 
> I read the FAQ but it just described what a subscription is and how to cancel it, which is cool but doesn't really describe what the subscription includes.
> 
> Like say as a DM I want to run a series of homebrew one-shots for 5e that my players can join, that for reasons of simplicity I'd rather just pay for. Whats the option best for me?




I would get the ultimate Subscription until you know you like it. The ONLY difference between the Full and Ultimate license is that they players do not have to buy FG to play.

What you get in this license is the following.

5E (D&D), Mechanic's only*
4E (D&D), Mechanic's only*
3.5E (D&D), SRD material only
PFRPG (Pathfinder), PRD material only
CoreRPG (Generic), Empty character sheets, NPC's etc. supports many dice mechanics
Numenera, Mechanic's only
FATE Core System, Full system and info, is a Pay what you want system though.
* There are parsers in the forums that let you semi-automate importing your data. 4e needs a DDI sub to scrape the info, while 5e pulls from a text file that can be either typed into or copied and pasted from a pdf or OCR scanned book. Note: This method takes quite a while for 5e because of errors in the scanned books, Basic Rules pdf imports just fine AFAIK.

In their store you can buy stuff for the following.

D&D 5e
Savage Worlds
Rolemaster Classic
Mutants and Masterminds 3E
Castles and Crusades 5E
Basic Roleplaying
Call of Cthulhu 6E
Iron Heroes
Arcana Evolved
D20 Modern


In the forums you can find the rulesets for the following that support the mechanics, but no copyrighted materials

2E (AD&D)
Advanced Fighting Fantasy 2E
Ars Magica 	Base
Black Crusade
Dresden Files
Earthdawn
Extinction Event
Fantasy Dice
Generic 
GURPS
Labyrinth Lord
Maelstrom RPG
OSRIC
Pavillon Noir Reloaded
Rifts
Shadowrun
Stargate SG-1
Star Wars: Edge of the Empire
Star Wars Saga
Strands of Fate
Trail of Cthulhu
Traveller
Unicore
Vampire: The Masquerade
Warhammer 40K: Dark Heresy
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay
World of Darkness

Edit: I should note that you can also buy tokens, maps and other things not directly tied to a gamesystem.


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## Harry Dresden (Apr 10, 2015)

I keep getting an error message whenever I try and uninstall the demo. Whenever I try and run the demo nothing happens. Says it isn't a valid Win32 application.


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## Aimian_Silverflash (Apr 10, 2015)

So we've run the gambit of online tabletops with my group. rpgtableonline, roll20, and a couple others. We decided to kill our game night last night and migrate everything over to FG, and give it a go. Overall, it went pretty well. Here's some notes I made:

*The Good:*
The "drag and drop" stuff from the 5E campaign pack was definitely pretty cool. Makes making a character super easy. 

The map interface is outstanding.

Once we got the thing going, it ran really smoothly. The program isn't too heavy on resources, so that + Skype ran just fine on all our computers. Everyone loves the virtual dice rollers.

*The Bad:*
It was fortunate that the drag-and-drop stuff was as good as it was, because I think the interface for customizing it beyond that was rather unpolished. Figuring out how to manually set up your attacks wasn't easy. Neither were things like getting your AC to work right when you have a shield, but the shield isn't currently equipped.

The drag-and-drop 5e spells and classes definitely needed to be polished. Most any spell that required both a damage roll as well as a saving throw only had a damage roll built in. (Vicious Mockery & Dissonant Whispers, for example, as I was playing my bard.) Also there was nothing really in there for class sub-specialties, such as Cutting Words for my College of Lore bard. I know the group's fighter was complaining that there wasn't anything in the drag and drop for his Martial Archtype abilities either. Probably nit-picking, but there's definitely room for improvement there.

As a Bard with Cutting Words, both the DM and I were complaining that there's no way for him to roll a visible dice without the party knowing the modifiers on it, and weather it succeeded or failed. We still have no idea how we're going to work Cutting Words in this without significantly increasing combat time.

*Summary: *
Good product! Definite room for improvement, and to be fair, we expect to see improvement for the price you guys are asking. But we've got the money to spend! If you guys clean it up, I'd see us buying the product outright. Especially once you guys start adding* time-saving drop-in modules*, like Horde of the Dragon Queen we're currently running. If you can get rid of the couple hours it takes the DM to prepare for each game session by setting up NPCs, bad guys and uploading maps like you always have to do with other tables, you've got yourselves a winner. ;-)


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## transtemporal (Apr 10, 2015)

Mask_of_winter said:


> Until the servers are down.




I would be surprised if that was the case with Roll20 though. Their tech seems pretty tight.


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## transtemporal (Apr 10, 2015)

Nice one, thanks for that Nylanfs. Edit: Actually don't worry about my questions, I'll just pick the thing up and play!


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## Mask_of_winter (Apr 10, 2015)

A license to use FG and the 5e material you can purchase are two separate things. 
A license allows you to run games on FG, any game you want including 5e. If you want the 5e reference libraries, player's hb and monster manual and don't want to spend many hours using a parser to do so, then you purchase what's in the store.


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## smiteworks (Apr 10, 2015)

Aimian_Silverflash said:


> So we've run the gambit of online tabletops with my group. rpgtableonline, roll20, and a couple others. We decided to kill our game night last night and migrate everything over to FG, and give it a go. Overall, it went pretty well. Here's some notes I made:
> 
> *The Good:*
> The "drag and drop" stuff from the 5E campaign pack was definitely pretty cool. Makes making a character super easy.
> ...




We have nearly finished modules for Hoard of the Dragon Queen and The Rise of Tiamat. They need a little more quality checking before we send them to Wizards for review and approval. I would guess 10-15 business days.

As for cutting words, your DM may want to change their preferences to set Show GM Rolls to off. Since you never know when you will decide to use it, you almost have to hide all the rolls. Another way, which may not be RAW, but might make sense is for them to turn on the Dice Tower to allow for hidden rolls. You could pre-roll your next Bardic Inspiration die into the DM's Dice Tower and they would see the result. They could even save the result to a macro slot at the bottom of the screen. You wouldn't know how successful your Cutting Word is actually going to be, even though you would still be able to see by how much the enemy made a roll.


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## transtemporal (Apr 10, 2015)

Mask_of_winter said:


> A license to use FG and the 5e material you can purchase are two separate things.
> A license allows you to run games on FG, any game you want including 5e. If you want the 5e reference libraries, player's hb and monster manual and don't want to spend many hours using a parser to do so, then you purchase what's in the store.




Oh ok, so the Ultimate license provides access to the application and then you have to buy the rules for whatever game you want to play. Cool, cheers. Thanks for explaining that because the website does a truly horrible job of it. I just spent 30 frustrating minutes with the application wondering why I have 5e in my list of games and why I can create characters, but I don't seem to be able to do anything with it.


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## mattcolville (Apr 10, 2015)

JohnnyZemo said:


> That's fair, I guess, but as a DM I can't imagine buying just buying "Constructs and Elementals" or "Celestials and Fiends."  I mean, does anyone run a campaign where the characters only fight a single type of monster?




I mean, don't get me wrong, I bought the whole thing, but I also typically run big adventures. Night Below, The Banewarrens, Red Hand of Doom. Each of these focuses on two or three monster categories. So it would be reasonable to buy the ones I need and have enough monsters for months of gaming.


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## RSKennan (Apr 10, 2015)

Nylanfs said:


> Just a note, all your data on Roll20 is on *their[\b] servers. With FG your campaign, images, tokens and such are on your computer. And if you change GM's but want to continue the campaign you can simply email the new gm the campaign folder and pick up where you left off.*



*

Yes. I have been meaning to point this out. If the Roll20 servers are down, or the company goes away, you lose your data.*


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## RSKennan (Apr 10, 2015)

transtemporal said:


> Oh ok, so the Ultimate license provides access to the application and then you have to buy the rules for whatever game you want to play. Cool, cheers.




Just a note, the Full license provides the same level of mechanical support. The ultimate license just lets you allow your players to play for free. Same product, just more open.

You can play the game just fine without any of the rulebook modules (you still have the scripting and automation rules included in your license) by coding effects yourself. The modules just speed things up such that you can create a character ,encounter, treasure parcel, etc. in 5-10 minutes.


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## Jan van Leyden (Apr 10, 2015)

Another question concerning the adventures: could one actually run an FG adventure without owning the paper version?

I saw one video (~40 minutes about Lost Mines of Phandalver, linked in this thread and the Rolplaying Games Rating area) where apparently boxed text was offered to the GM, but does the module contain the complete text like (apparantlý) the Monster Manual?


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## UngainlyTitan (Apr 10, 2015)

A quick question, how are maps created in FG. I am currently prepping a Roll20 campaign and I have hand drawn the map using the drawing tools. Frankly I prefer it that way rather than having to mess about with high end graphics apps.
Can I do this on FG or do I have to import jpegs?


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## transtemporal (Apr 10, 2015)

RSKennan said:


> You can play the game just fine without any of the rulebook modules (you still have the scripting and automation rules included in your license) by coding effects yourself.




There must be something I'm missing here. How do I play the game without any of the rules?

Also, what scripting and automation tools?


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## Askaval30 (Apr 10, 2015)

ardoughter said:


> A quick question, how are maps created in FG. I am currently prepping a Roll20 campaign and I have hand drawn the map using the drawing tools. Frankly I prefer it that way rather than having to mess about with high end graphics apps.
> Can I do this on FG or do I have to import jpegs?




yes, there is a draw tool included by which you can hand-draw maps or pretty much anything else. You can even overlay a grid or the fog of war on it just like you'd do on an imported jpeg image


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## UngainlyTitan (Apr 10, 2015)

Askaval30 said:


> yes, there is a draw tool included by which you can hand-draw maps or pretty much anything else. You can even overlay a grid or the fog of war on it just like you'd do on an imported jpeg image




Cool! I may give it a whirl when I get some time.


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## Mask_of_winter (Apr 10, 2015)

transtemporal said:


> There must be something I'm missing here. How do I play the game without any of the rules?
> 
> Also, what scripting and automation tools?




The 5e mechanics comes with FG for free. 
So without the rules provided by the store you have to:
a) Type and format everything yourself
b) figure out the parser which will convert raw data from the ocr'd d&d books into a language FG understands
or c) play with the book on your lap.

The automation will track HP, conditions, distribute treasure parcels, etc. That comes out of the box, you don't need to purchase any official 5e material for that.

You seem very curious. Have you checked out any youtube videos yet? Trying to explain how FG works with words is as tricky as trying to explain what D&D is to someone who's never heard of it. I encourage you to go on youtube and run a search with keywords like: fantasy grounds and d&d . You'll find tutorials, actual plays and reviews. It's also worth noting that FG works pretty much the same way with any ruleset so what you'll find with Castles & Crusades, 4e or Pathfinder applies.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=fantasy grounds&sm=3


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## Nylanfs (Apr 10, 2015)

Jan van Leyden said:


> Another question concerning the adventures: could one actually run an FG adventure without owning the paper version?
> 
> I saw one video (~40 minutes about Lost Mines of Phandalver, linked in this thread and the Rolplaying Games Rating area) where apparently boxed text was offered to the GM, but does the module contain the complete text like (apparantlý) the Monster Manual?




Yes


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## Nylanfs (Apr 10, 2015)

BTW Talen is going to be streaming a 5e game tomorrow (Sat) if anyone wanted to watch.


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## Nylanfs (Apr 10, 2015)

In case anyone is interested, these are some of the people I have found on twitch that are streaming (and sometimes recording) their D&D (or Pathfinder) games with FG

http://www.twitch.tv/ruleofthree/profile

http://www.twitch.tv/keithjr42/profile

http://www.twitch.tv/thebrokenhalo/profile

http://www.twitch.tv/fshschmo/profile

http://www.twitch.tv/calacorm_/profile

http://www.twitch.tv/bangcreosote/profile


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## Aimian_Silverflash (Apr 10, 2015)

smiteworks said:


> We have nearly finished modules for Hoard of the Dragon Queen and The Rise of Tiamat. They need a little more quality checking before we send them to Wizards for review and approval. I would guess 10-15 business days.
> 
> As for cutting words, your DM may want to change their preferences to set Show GM Rolls to off. Since you never know when you will decide to use it, you almost have to hide all the rolls. Another way, which may not be RAW, but might make sense is for them to turn on the Dice Tower to allow for hidden rolls. You could pre-roll your next Bardic Inspiration die into the DM's Dice Tower and they would see the result. They could even save the result to a macro slot at the bottom of the screen. You wouldn't know how successful your Cutting Word is actually going to be, even though you would still be able to see by how much the enemy made a roll.




Great news about HotDQ & RoT. We'll be looking forward to it, thanks.


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## transtemporal (Apr 11, 2015)

Mask_of_winter said:


> The 5e mechanics comes with FG for free.
> So without the rules provided by the store you have to:
> a) Type and format everything yourself
> b) figure out the parser which will convert raw data from the ocr'd d&d books into a language FG understands
> ...




I picked up the ultimate subscription so I can muck around. Been looking for a decent VTT for ages.

I've watched the 5e videos but to be honest they confused me because the developer already has all the rulesets available so when he's explaining how to make a character, he's dragging and dropping from the library window and I'm thinking "How come I can't see any of that?" 
In other words, its not targeted at people who've just downloaded the software and don't realise you need to buy the rulesets (because come on, what kind of lunatic is going to manually type out all of 5e?). So now that I'd figured that out, I'll just buy the rulesets and do it that way.

Thanks for your help!


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## mattcolville (Apr 11, 2015)

Askaval30 said:


> yes, there is a draw tool included by which you can hand-draw maps or pretty much anything else. You can even overlay a grid or the fog of war on it just like you'd do on an imported jpeg image




This is something I think needs some work as a feature. Right now the pencil tool has one thickness, no snap-to-grid (as far as I know) and no way to change the color. I end up doing things in Photoshop which I am not proficient in.


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## deactivatedadam (Apr 11, 2015)

[MENTION=1300]mattcolville[/MENTION], sorry for the slightly off topic post, I was wondering if you were still doing your "build a fighter in every edition" videos. Thought that it would be pretty cool if you did one for 5E in Fantasy Grounds, I think those videos have been heavily followed in the past and it would go a ways to providing more exposure and a nice how-to. I know Doug did one already, but the more the better in my opinion. It might be nice to have another video with someone who doesnt have such intimate knowledge of the software, could give a lot of those out there thinking about trying it out an idea of what its like as you are just learning it.
Just at thought, you're videos have been very helpful in the past.


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## transtemporal (Apr 11, 2015)

mattcolville said:


> This is something I think needs some work as a feature. Right now the pencil tool has one thickness, no snap-to-grid (as far as I know) and no way to change the color. I end up doing things in Photoshop which I am not proficient in.




OK, good its not just me. I agree. I've just been trying to puzzle out how I change the brush size.

Does it have an undo tool? I'm trying the usual shortcuts but I have no idea what it is.


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## RSKennan (Apr 11, 2015)

There's an eraser tool. Ctrl-z etc. doesn't work.

Edit: One thing you could do is keep paint or a similar program open, and quickly save to the images folder. FG does hotload images, tokens, etc. It won't be quite as quick as a set of dedicated tools in FG, but it might work.


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## smiteworks (Apr 11, 2015)

mattcolville said:


> This is something I think needs some work as a feature. Right now the pencil tool has one thickness, no snap-to-grid (as far as I know) and no way to change the color. I end up doing things in Photoshop which I am not proficient in.




The drawing tools inside of FG are extremely light and not really suitable beyond a quick one-time map every now and then. The primary usage is to create or find an image outside of FG and then save and drag the image onto FG's image & maps window. The campaign will update in real-time to make it immediately available. My recommendation would be to run Paint.net (if that's still around), GIMP or another free graphics tool if you plan to do much drawing for your own maps. If you actually have Photoshop, then it would of course work too, but is very expensive. You are much better off with a drawing tool that supports layers, IMO.

For any image you drag in, you can lay a grid over top of it inside of FG using the right-click menu. Check out the Map video on the Smiteworks YouTube channel for a rundown on how to best utilize your images from outside of FG.
https://www.youtube.com/user/smiteworksprez/videos


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## Lindeloef (Apr 11, 2015)

[MENTION=87795]smiteworks[/MENTION]

As one can activate the Ultimate edition on Steam, could the "switching DM" Problem be solved by having basically a Steam DM Account with that license and the one that is DMing right now would just login on that and would have access to everything that account has bought? (while the others just use the free version to join)


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## Nylanfs (Apr 11, 2015)

Lindeloef said:


> [MENTION=87795]smiteworks[/MENTION]
> 
> As one can activate the Ultimate edition on Steam, could the "switching DM" Problem be solved by having basically a Steam DM Account with that license and the one that is DMing right now would just login on that and would have access to everything that account has bought? (while the others just use the free version to join)



You *could*, but I believe Fantasy Grounds would need reinstalled every time you switch Steam acct. Plus I believe that violates Steams acct policy.


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## SkidAce (Apr 11, 2015)

Nylanfs said:


> You *could*, but I believe Fantasy Grounds would need reinstalled every time you switch Steam acct. Plus I believe that violates Steams acct policy.




You could use the Family Sharing option, which is made for several people to be able to play a game, just no one at the same time.


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## Nylanfs (Apr 11, 2015)

http://www.twitch.tv/talwynor

Live stream of a D&D game now


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## Griogre (Apr 11, 2015)

For anyone coming in a bit late to the announcement there has been a lot of talk about price - how expensive, etc and a lot of talk about the high end. 

Nobody that I saw really said that the min price if you want to try it for a month with a group is $13.  You pay $9.99 for a month of FG's Ultimate license and then drop $2.99 and get the Basic Rules Pack which has the classics races and classes: Dwarf, Elf, Halfling, Human; Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, and Wizard.  The Basic Rules is a one time buy and also has 200+ monsters for the DM.

One month's gaming for the price of a movie ticket.  That's not a bad deal to try out the software and 5E, IMHO.


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## hbarsquared (Apr 11, 2015)

[MENTION=87795]smiteworks[/MENTION]

To clarify, do the Complete Class Pack and Complete Monster Pack include the full text of the PHB and MM, respectively?

As in, if I buy the Complete Class Pack, am I simply buying the whole PHB, in VTT form?


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## smiteworks (Apr 11, 2015)

It includes the full text and images from the PHB or MM. Wherever possible, that "text" is converted into an appropriate VTT record, such as a Class, an NPC an  Item, a Spell., etc. The images are normally linked in relation to the text, so a picture of an NPC would get set up as a link from the description of an NPC but would be stored as an image that could be shared.


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## Mistwell (Apr 12, 2015)

JohnD said:


> That is simply not entirely accurate.  There are many more options for pricing for base FG than $150.
> 
> At the most expensive level nobody that ever connects to your game needs to pay anything.  No charge.  Ever.
> 
> I can appreciate everyone has their preference, but at least get your information right.




So what is the $40 version on Steam or $120 4-pack?  I saw this post earlier:

$150 for the Ultimate license (or $10/month for a subscription)
$50 for the Complete Class Package
$50 for the Complete Monster Package
$20 for Lost Mines of Phandelver
$270. (Or $120 and $10/month)

"This will allow anyone with a Demo license( free) to connect to your game and view all the content."

"Alternatively, you and all your players could buy normal licenses for $40 (or $4/month)"

What exactly does that last sentence mean? Will the $40/person or $120 for 4 substitute for the $150 ultimate license portion above?


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## pedr (Apr 12, 2015)

That's a full licence which allows you to connect to any GM with a licence or to act as GM - but it requires your players to have their own licences. The $150 ultimate licence lets free licence players connect. From what I can tell, that is the only difference between the standard licence and the ultimate one.


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## pedr (Apr 12, 2015)

Re the edit - yes. If every player has paid for FG, the DM just needs a standard licence. It's only if the GM wants to allow players who haven't paid anything for the program to play that he needs the ultimate licence.

(Edit) Does this help: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/buyFG/#licensecomparison ?

From what I can tell, the only difference between $40 and $150 is who can connect to a game you are GMing.


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## smiteworks (Apr 12, 2015)

Those replies are both correct. Some historical context (since Fantasy Grounds has been around since 2004):

We used to have 
- a Lite license which was cheaper but only let you do player stuff
- a Full license which let you use all the DM features of Fantasy Grounds, build your own rulesets and extensions, modules, act as a player or host for other players with a license. 

At some point, people in the community and newcomers started requesting the ability to have unlimited players or at least slots for players to join freely. At this time we created a Free license and an Ultimate license. The Free license only worked if connected with an Ultimate. Over time we added a Demo mode too and now we call it a Free/Demo license. The Ultimate allows you to have unlimited players, who can all be running the Free/Demo license if they don't already have a license of their own. Due to popularity of the Ultimate license and the constant state of confusion on the Lite license's capabilities, we dropped it entirely. That now means that anyone who buys a license of FG gets to use all the DM features. All of those features are the same between the Full (now just a standard) license and the Ultimate license. We also added in a bunch of free tokens that we purchased the rights to distribute and gave these to all standard and Ultimate license people along with a dozen or so maps that I created for people to use for common scenarios. You can upgrade from the standard to the Ultimate license.

The pack we sell on Steam is the Standard license. There is DLC for the Upgrade to Ultimate. There is also a buy 3 get 1 free pack of standard licenses. Which option is best for you depends on the make-up of your group. If you have a fixed number of people where multiple people might want to DM, then the 4-pack deal is probably a good way to go. If the DM is mostly the same but there are a large number of players (perhaps multiple groups) or they rotate in and out players a lot, then the Ultimate probably makes more sense. 

The other option is the subscriptions. These act the same as the Standard and Ultimate but you pay a monthly fee of $3.99 or $9.99 to keep it active instead. 

Clear as mud yet?


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## transtemporal (Apr 12, 2015)

smiteworks said:


> Clear as mud yet?




You've framed in a lighthearted way, but this is actually a barrier to your product. People should have questions about the functionality sure, but they shouldn't have questions about the distribution or subscription model. That should be so clearly spelled out and accessible that even a complete nonce can get it. I don't want to get down on you or anything because I think its cool there's a product for 5e, but its also frustrating that I had to ask here to make sense of it.


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## smiteworks (Apr 12, 2015)

It may be a barrier to some, but it's due to providing more options. Sales people will tell you to limit the options to two or three things. If you look on our store page, we've framed it as Option #1 Subscriptions or Option #2 Lifetime License and then Show the small # of options underneath each of those two choices. We have a link to an FAQ about subscriptions in that area and a link underneath the whole section to a chart that compares license types - much like you see with other software packages.

Short of removing options, I don't see how we can make it clearer.


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## Greg Benage (Apr 12, 2015)

The software itself looks very cool, but as Ryan Dancey would say, the value is in the network. How many people are playing 5E on FG? How easy is it to find players and DMs compared to Roll20? Judging by the Guild House forum, it seems...limited...but I don't know if that's the right way to compare. The FG software may be appropriately priced, but it's worth $0 if I can't put a good gaming group together. Other than the Guild House, where do I look to evaluate that?


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## smiteworks (Apr 12, 2015)

You can also look in the 5E forums. 

Since launching on Tuesday, there are a flood of new users who have come to Fantasy Grounds and picked up both of the Complete Core modules and the Lost Mine of Phandelver. I'm not sure how long it will take these new users to get comfortable enough to host a game, but I would expect to see a lot more games getting scheduled for 5E. I've also been approached by a number of DM's and a few coordinators about running Adventurers League games online using it. This approach has been popular with the Pathfinder Society Games run on Fantasy Grounds and it ends up with more games getting posted that are open to newer players. I expect a lot of groups form and don't go back looking for new players unless they lose a player.


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## Nylanfs (Apr 12, 2015)

Plus the flood of players from Steam, honestly the only thing that limits me finding a game has been my time schedule.


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## Greg Benage (Apr 12, 2015)

Nylanfs said:


> Plus the flood of players from Steam, honestly the only thing that limits me finding a game has been my time schedule.




I gather you've been active on FG awhile, so is that because you already have a network to draw on? Again, just looking at the Guild Hall (I checked the 5e forum as Smiteworks suggested, but the game posts were far more sparse there -- I did find a thread started by a guy who couldn't find a game!), there doesn't seem to be much recruitment activity. I currently count 58 5E campaigns recruiting on Roll20.

Is this a fair way to compare the level of activity? If not, what is? Where do you go to find all the games you don't have time to play? 

Alternatively, of course, I can wait until activity picks up. I don't need to be in a hurry. I just wanted to make sure I was looking in the right place(s).


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## Dire Bare (Apr 12, 2015)

transtemporal said:


> You've framed in a lighthearted way, but this is actually a barrier to your product. People should have questions about the functionality sure, but they shouldn't have questions about the distribution or subscription model. That should be so clearly spelled out and accessible that even a complete nonce can get it. I don't want to get down on you or anything because I think its cool there's a product for 5e, but its also frustrating that I had to ask here to make sense of it.




Smiteworks is trying to provide options, and I appreciate that.

However, I agree with transtemporal, FG *might* be better served by a simpler pricing structure, even if it ends up restricting the current pricing options.

I would merge the "standard" and "ultimate" license so that every license allows full access to the software plus hosting games for everybody! I would expect this single license to be less expensive than $150, but more expensive than $40. Maybe $60? And, of course, keeping the free demo license available. However, I would understand if such a pricing structure wouldn't generate enough revenue for FG, although I would hope with the "D&D bump" they could sell licenses at a lower cost and greater volume. Totally armchair quarterbacking here! 

I would also love to see a FG "D&D Edition". The FG merged license (as above) plus the complete D&D trilogy (PHB, MM, DMG) for one price.


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## Mistwell (Apr 12, 2015)

smiteworks said:


> It may be a barrier to some, but it's due to providing more options. Sales people will tell you to limit the options to two or three things...Short of removing options, I don't see how we can make it clearer.




You have an entire huge thread of smart people who are your likely customers who are confused by your pricing model.  Even if you really want to maintain more options than salespeople recommend, isn't it possible there is a better way to present that pricing model? I don't know, as I am not professional marketing consultant.


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## Mistwell (Apr 12, 2015)

JohnD said:


> I would also love to see a FG "D&D Edition". The FG merged license (as above) plus the complete D&D trilogy (PHB, MM, DMG) for one price.




Absolutely.  

As an analogy, car companies have vans.  The van can be sold with 3-4 rows of seats behind the driver/passenger row, for carpooling or large families.  They can be sold with two rows back there and a good sized storage space.  Or they can be sold with no rows back there and all cargo space.  But when the dealership is talking to a delivery company, they don't talk about all those options - they say here is the price for a cargo van, and they market it as a cargo van.  It doesn't matter that it can be configured other ways - their audience obviously mostly cares about one way to configure it.

This is a D&D audience, and you just launched a big deal flagship D&D-oriented product.  Why the heck is it not being marketed to that audience with a single D&D price? Just tell me what it costs for a group (through a DM) to buy the game engine, the core books, and the ability for all their players to load all the classes and create any character and play with that DM, with a good amount of D&D tokens.  

Don't make me add up the price for the game engine, or a different price for that engine but with unlimited players, and then the price to add the PHB rules, and then the price for the MM rules, and another price for the DMG rules, and then then price for the Basic classes, and the price for all the classes, and the price for a D&D token set, etc.. I am going to add it all up anyway, but by the time I've gotten there myself my enthusiasm is deadened substantially and I start to worry about how you're going to nickle and dime me going forward as new products are released - a thought that was not previously going through my head when I was just excited and wanted to hit a BUY button for the whole thing.

I strongly suspect a heck of a lot of gaming groups out there just want one price phrased two ways - up front for lifetime, or monthly, and have it be for the full D&D package.  They do not want to buy a hamburger, and then pay separate for the pickles, and separate for the onions, and separate for the lettuce, and separate for the ketchup.  Just sell me a friggen hamburger and tell me what it costs, and give me a BUY button to push.


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## transtemporal (Apr 12, 2015)

smiteworks said:


> It may be a barrier to some, but it's due to providing more options. Sales people will tell you to limit the options to two or three things. If you look on our store page, we've framed it as Option #1 Subscriptions or Option #2 Lifetime License and then Show the small # of options underneath each of those two choices. We have a link to an FAQ about subscriptions in that area and a link underneath the whole section to a chart that compares license types - much like you see with other software packages.
> 
> Short of removing options, I don't see how we can make it clearer.




The options aren't necessarily the issue. Its how you package, explain and present the options. For example, the usability of that page is not great. The packages need more space, and they need a big clear thing that says "Which option is right for my group?" because by the time I get to this page, I'm thinking "Features look good, now I just have to figure out price and which option to go with, so... what are the options that best fit my groups gaming requirements?" It should'nt be an anonymous link under one of the options (I didn't even notice the link until you mentioned it).


----------



## transtemporal (Apr 12, 2015)

Mistwell said:


> I strongly suspect a heck of a lot of gaming groups out there just want one price phrased two ways - up front for lifetime, or monthly, and have it be for the full D&D package.  They do not want to buy a hamburger, and then pay separate for the pickles, and separate for the onions, and separate for the lettuce, and separate for the ketchup.  Just sell me a friggen hamburger and tell me what it costs, and give me a BUY button to push.




Exactly! Its nice to have the option to buy seperately because that caters to people who want to buy that way... but wheres my option to buy everything in one go? 

Also, I just want to play 5e. I imagine the instances where someone downloads the software without knowing what game system they want to play are very rare, so making me download FATE, 3.5, 4.0 etc just clutters up my interface and makes me download additional stuff I don't want or care about. To continue Mistwell's analogy above, you buy the van and it comes with several sets of extra seatbelts of varying colours and fabrics. Sure its nice to have extra seatbelts, I guess... but realistically, they're just going to gather dust in a box in the garage.


----------



## transtemporal (Apr 12, 2015)

Dire Bare said:


> I would merge the "standard" and "ultimate" license so that every license allows full access to the software plus hosting games for everybody! I would expect this single license to be less expensive than $150, but more expensive than $40. Maybe $60?




Yep, totally agree. The pricing could probably do with some simplification. It's cumbersome and probably too expensive but for me it was mainly the explanation of the options.


----------



## VenomousFiligree (Apr 12, 2015)

If you're looking for games, as well as the FG forums there are now official online Adventurers League groups on both Facebook and Google+.


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## RSKennan (Apr 12, 2015)

smiteworks said:


> I expect a lot of groups form and don't go back looking for new players unless they lose a player.




That's pretty much the case in my experience. Once you're happy with your group(s), you don't need to go back looking for more. I've never had trouble building an FG group as a GM.


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## nerfherder (Apr 12, 2015)

First of all, thank you smiteworks for coming here and answering lots of questions.  I'm still deciding whether this is a product that my group might want to use, and reading this thread is providing me with lots of information to help guide my decision.


smiteworks said:


> If you actually have Photoshop, then it would of course work too, but is very expensive.



Actually, Photoshop (including Lightroom) is only $9.99/month, which I'm sure you will agree is a reasonable subscription rate for quality software


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## Nylanfs (Apr 12, 2015)

Greg Benage said:


> I gather you've been active on FG awhile, so is that because you already have a network to draw on? Again, just looking at the Guild Hall (I checked the 5e forum as Smiteworks suggested, but the game posts were far more sparse there -- I did find a thread started by a guy who couldn't find a game!), there doesn't seem to be much recruitment activity. I currently count 58 5E campaigns recruiting on Roll20.




I've owned the program since 2006 and have played and gm'd a handful of games in that time. I have one face to face group but they don't have FG. 

My problem is that my schedule is really erratic and really can't plan out out more than a month in advance. And I don't feel comfortable joining a game just to have to miss quite a few of the sessions. One interesting consequence of my schedule is that I got to play with a Scottish group when they were playing a short term game of castles and crusades.

Besides the Guild Hall, you can look on the calendar, the Steam forums have a section for finding groups, the Society of Extraordinary Gamers have a bunch of groups that you can usually jump in on. And the FREE game convention FG-Con.com that happens twice a year is a good place to find a game group.


----------



## Mistwell (Apr 12, 2015)

smiteworks said:


> If you actually have Photoshop, then it would of course work too, but is very expensive. You are much better off with a drawing tool that supports layers, IMO.






nerfherder said:


> Actually, Photoshop (including Lightroom) is only $9.99/month, which I'm sure you will agree is a reasonable subscription rate for quality software




That is hilarious!


----------



## smiteworks (Apr 12, 2015)

I bought the non-sub version of Photoshop for myself for more than $600 IIRC. That was after previously owning a copy of Photoshop CS3, which was expensive in its own right. The other devs have the Adobe subs which add up to be a fair amount overall. Obviously, some people don't mind buying stuff that is expensive when the quality is there.  I also pay $10 a month to DDI. It's all relative in the end. If you use something or want to support something you like, then the expensiveness becomes less important.


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## Dire Bare (Apr 12, 2015)

nerfherder said:


> Actually, Photoshop (including Lightroom) is only $9.99/month, which I'm sure you will agree is a reasonable subscription rate for quality software




Be wary of Adobe subscriptions. Unless they've changed their offers, the "monthly" subs come with a yearly commitment. And if you accidentally allow your sub to roll over to the next year? Yup, one more year commitment. And their customer service is terrible. I subscribed to the full Adobe suite for a year for a class, and when I tried to quit . . . . I almost became homicidal Adobe made it so difficult. I vowed never to purchase or subscribe to an Adobe product again I was so peeved, I even try to avoid using Adobe Reader!


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## Psikerlord# (Apr 13, 2015)

If you're running windows pretty sure Paint comes for free. You can edit maps and draw your own maps on that pretty easily. Then just save as, load it into FG, stick a grid on it. Done. 

Hmm I'm imaging a cool looking parchment like background. Probably with a grid already. Then just draw on it in Paint, save as, load it to FG, match up the FG grid. Done!


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## Selvarin (Apr 13, 2015)

Well....I went for a basic subscription and bought the D&D PHB core pack. 

I will say straight up, I'm a stickler about character creation. I'm not looking to play in a group via a server, my interest was more into seeing how easy it is to create a character and store it.

I'm sure it's a great product but I feel too constrained. Too many windows to make this choice or that (race, class, etc.)

Not my cup of tea, and I'm missing that $53 already. 

Be 100% certain, and make sure to try the demo out as much as possible. One part in particular I had trouble with had me thinking maybe I should buy the pack and then it'll make sense. (The lower part of the Import Local Character threw me--it would be best if the full mini-menu was kept in full view.)

I wish the best to Fantasy Grounds, either way.


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## vikingbrad (Apr 13, 2015)

I want to try out 5E on Fantasy Grounds for our face-to-face group. As a trial getting this

US$4/mth for standard user license and 
US$2.99 Basic Rules, content of Starter Kit 4 character classes with 1 subclass each, 4 common races, 120 spells, backgrounds & character sheets

US$7 doesn't sound too bad.


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## pickin_grinnin (Apr 13, 2015)

I'm not looking for a VTT option, but if I was, I would rule this out, based on price alone.   I doubt they are at the magic balancing point where you get the maximum return from unit price versus total sales.

I wish Smiteworks luck, and hope this turns out to be a good option for a lot of people.


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## Nylanfs (Apr 13, 2015)

Well, it's been working for them for ten plus years ...


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## Hollow Man (Apr 13, 2015)

I do wish that the Basic ruleset was free. Granted $2.99 isn't a lot to pay, but if WotC offers the Basic pdf for free, why should I pay for it here, when I already have to pay for the license to use the program?

-HM


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## Nylanfs (Apr 13, 2015)

There's some art work and tokens and such. Plus there's quite a bit of interconnection that a program allows that is done. It isn't just a copy and past.


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## Nylanfs (Apr 13, 2015)

Plus if you don't want to pay the $3 there is s parser in their forums you can down load that puts the basic rules into fg for you for free.


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## Aenorgreen (Apr 13, 2015)

I have to say I also do not understand how they came up with the pricing for some options.  Why would the wizard cost $3, the barbarian $5 and the warlock cost $6?  That seems odd to me.  This is coming from a player who likes and uses FG btw.


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## lkj (Apr 13, 2015)

Aenorgreen said:


> I have to say I also do not understand how they came up with the pricing for some options.  Why would the wizard cost $3, the barbarian $5 and the warlock cost $6?  That seems odd to me.  This is coming from a player who likes and uses FG btw.




Just speculating, but maybe the wizard is cheaper because a big chunk of the wizard (lots of spells and such) are part of the Basic rules. 

AD


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## Inglorin (Apr 13, 2015)

Aenorgreen said:


> I have to say I also do not understand how they came up with the pricing for some options.  Why would the wizard cost $3, the barbarian $5 and the warlock cost $6?  That seems odd to me.  This is coming from a player who likes and uses FG btw.




Well, Cleric, Fighter, Rogue and Wizard are 2.99 each. See the pattern?


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## smiteworks (Apr 13, 2015)

Inglorin said:


> Well, Cleric, Fighter, Rogue and Wizard are 2.99 each. See the pattern?




That's the reason. Each of these is already covered up to 80% or so in the D&D basic rules for $2.99. The new pack adds portraits and the expanded class information and abilities. You only get a single style of fighter in the basic rules set, but with the fighter pack, you get additional archetypes. For spellcasting classes, these are normally more expensive then non-casters due to the large volume of spells that come with them. Wizard and Cleric don't because they are already in the D&D basic rules.


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## Aenorgreen (Apr 13, 2015)

So cost has nothing to do with the complexity of building the system for that class or size of options, but is based only on if they were in the starting set?  Seems strange since sorcerer is almost the same class, and costs twice as much.  But thanks for answering.


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## brehobit (Apr 14, 2015)

OK, I'm a player and I'm finding that the packs really lack functionality.  Or, more likely, I can't figure out how to use them. Basically I get text, but even basic powers/abilities don't _do_ anything.  I'm not even finding I can pick an Archetype.


I can't find a way to select a fighting style.  Let alone get one to automatically made the right changes.
_I can't find a way to get second wind to auto heal.  Instead I'm rolling a d10+3 and manually adding the hit points to my character._ *Figured this one out.  Need to drag below weapons on the actions sheet. Creates "powers".  Still doesn't work correctly by default.  Needed to change things so that "stat" used is "Lvl". No idea why that's not the default here.*
_I can't find a way to add an Archetype.  And I don't have a clue how to get Combat Superiority maneuvers to be selected._ *OK, can select an Archetype by dragging it to powers again.  There are combat supriority options too, but I can't figure out what to do with the options.*
Is the intent that I need to implement these myself? If so, is there a tutorial about how to do so?  I get the sense that the group I play with, which has used FG for years and years, know the ins and outs of this.  But for now, I feel like I just roll dice and apply the effects myself (or have the DM do it if I can't).  

I can manage effects just fine.  It's obvious what to put where (though the DM needs to add them AFAICT).  But I can't figure out the rest and the tutorials don't really give me as much information as I'd like (plus I hate watching 20-40 minute tutorials when I know how to do 80% of it all already.

Help?


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## smiteworks (Apr 14, 2015)

Some of these features can be dragged to your character sheet for reference during play. You will probably need to tweak these some under your powers screen if you want to automate some portion of them. For instance, to add Combat Superiority and maneuvers, you may want to set it up something like the image below. Basically you can drag the Combat Superiority ability to your power tab (and also to your Abilities tab for redundancy) and it will pre-fill a Save and two effects that it recognized. You may or may not have need of that depending on which maneuvers you choose. If you toggle the Display on your powers to Summary and your Mode to Preparation, you can set it to allow 4 combat maneuvers per Rest and record the known maneuvers in your summary. The magnifying glass next to the Save and next to the effects can be clicked to provide greater control. For the Saving throw your targets will need, you can set that it is Str based and has a base DC of 8 + Ability plus Str bonus plus proficiency. If your Dex is higher, you can toggle it to use that instead. Once the final DC is shown on the screen you can make your targets auto roll against it by clicking the Dice Icon next to Save. You can then drag the appropriate effect over. If you are dealing additional dice or getting an additional bonus to hit on your next roll, then I recommend rolling a d8 for your combat superiority die and then dragging that result to your Modifier window prior to launching your main attack or damage roll.
View attachment 67887

Tip:
Prep:
Save a die macro to roll and label combat superiority 
1. Type into Chat Window (don't hit enter): /die 1d8 Combat Superiority 
2. Drag that chat text to a Macro slot
Usage:
1. Click the macro to roll the die
2. Drag the result to your modifier box
3. Launch your normal attack or damage

Result Screenshot:
View attachment 67886


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## Mirtek (Apr 14, 2015)

OK, I bought FG, the full class pack and the character customization pack.

But the sage background is only showing the first 6 personality traits. Also adding an explorers pack is adding neither the 50 feet of robe nor the mess kit nor the 10 day rations.

Honestly I am pretty disappointed given that I just paid 90 EUR for this


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## Nylanfs (Apr 14, 2015)

It is being upgraded and fixed there have been 3 updates since release that I am aware of.

Also as a note as of right now (04/14/15 3:40ishpm GMT+5) ALL full licenses are upgraded to Ultimate for the duration of FG-Con, so if you have a group that wants to try it out now is a good time to try.


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## Selvarin (Apr 14, 2015)

I should've done that. I went with the $3.99/month subscription and the $50 PHB core pack. Then I would've had a chance to try the layout and decide if it was worth it.

As it stands, I don't care for the layout. Going back and forth to add....ehhh.

I think there's a market for this *and* for a well-designed 5E character manager. I'll keep looking for the latter.


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## smiteworks (Apr 15, 2015)

Mirtek said:


> OK, I bought FG, the full class pack and the character customization pack.
> 
> But the sage background is only showing the first 6 personality traits. Also adding an explorers pack is adding neither the 50 feet of robe nor the mess kit nor the 10 day rations.
> 
> Honestly I am pretty disappointed given that I just paid 90 EUR for this




Hello Mirtek,

I'm not sure if you've run a Check for Updates recently, but we have pushed out a few data patches over the last few days. The Sage Personality Traits lists 8 options that can be selected or rolled randomly. The window has a scroll bar and may not show them all at once on your screen. You can use the scroll bar or the mouse-wheel while the cursor is inside that window. 

The Explorer's Pack is not currently bringing over the rations, the empty backpack or the rope automatically. We will add this to our fix list. In the meantime, you can use the filter to quickly search for and then pull these items over to your character's inventory. 

Overall, I want to be clear to everyone reading the thread here that Fantasy Grounds is not intended as a rules validating character builder. With the Complete Core Class Pack or the D&D Basic Rules, it does contain all the reference material you actually need to build a character; however, building a character in Fantasy Grounds is more akin to building a character for a face-to-face game. There are a number of things that are automated above what you would get with a paper sheet, such as the auto-calculation of encumbrance and some automation on the preparation of attacks and spell actions. The true power of Fantasy Grounds comes when you begin using the completed character sheet to play the game online. 

As a player, you can easily target and launch attacks or spells at monsters and have it automatically determine a hit or a miss or force your targets to roll against a set saving throw. You can have it automatically deal full or half damage or apply an effect to anyone who fails. The DM can do the same thing from monsters to players. The more you play with it, the more advanced automation you'll be able to incorporate into your game. The level of automation you decide to use in your game is up to you and your group. Some groups prefer to use only the basic level of automation while others use it to the maximum degree. 

Here's a tip for getting your players engaged and excited early. Set up a combat training room.

Open up one of the included maps in the FG Map Pack
Set a grid on the map
Drag your players and a few monsters into the Combat Tracker and then drag their tokens from the combat tracker to the map
Increase the monster's hit points to something very large -- add a couple zeros to the end of each monster's hit points
Set the monster's as visible and share the map with your players.
Let your players practice dropping different attacks on their enemies and toggling various modifiers to their rolls, such as concealment, cover, advantage, disadvantage and applying normal or critical damage.

Remember, your players can target multiple creatures by CTRL+clicking them on the map. They can untarget them the same way, or they can drag and drop their attacks or damage directly onto the monster token or the monster listing in the combat tracker.


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## Dire Bare (Apr 15, 2015)

smiteworks said:


> Overall, I want to be clear to everyone reading the thread here that Fantasy Grounds is not intended as a rules validating character builder.




I think your website is clear, and this has also been made clear in this thread . . . but I still think lots of folks aren't getting it, sadly. Criticizing the software for not being a character builder is like criticizing an orange for not being an apple. You might want an apple, but to complain about the orange not being one is a bit silly.

This is not on Smiteworks in any way, but I wish WotC had delivered (or licensed) a character builder first to lessen the confusion. But, I suppose, you work with what you have and FG is an amazing virtual tabletop that only needed the datasets to become the official D&D virtual tabletop. There is not likely a ready-to-go 5E character builder just waiting for a license.

Thanks Smiteworks for producing a great product, for getting the D&D license, and for being on top of customer communication and bug fixes! I haven't purchased FG yet, but based on what I've seen in this thread from your company, I'm saving up my pennies to do so!

I know you guys are a small team and probably have plenty on your plate, but SMITEWORKS should seriously consider a companion app for FG that is a rules validating character builder! That would have value on its own, and increase the value of FG! Get on that!


----------



## Tony Semana (Apr 15, 2015)

Wow. I've been as excited for and supportive of 5E since the play-test. But this is a big miss-step for me; the only mac option for FG is through steam. And all that does is create a wineskin wrapper... what a sub-par option! That and fold in the pricing and this is a non-starter.


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## VenomousFiligree (Apr 15, 2015)

FG runs flawlessly on my Mac, both via Steam and via Crossover, don't know why that is sub-par....


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## smiteworks (Apr 15, 2015)

One of our three core developers is exclusively a Mac guy. We worked with him to build the Mac version on Steam and we have always limited ourselves to DirectX video calls that are very well supported in WINE. I realize that some other game and software companies may distribute sub-par versions of their software inside a WINE wrapper, but I assure you that Fantasy Grounds runs really well within that space.


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## Tony Semana (Apr 15, 2015)

Well I'm glad it'll be of use to you. It's sub-par because it's obviously (to me) written for a different platform. Between the settings-tango that needs to be done on setup and the window-in-window UI even before getting into the app, it's sub-par to me because it doesn't run flawlessly to me. So I'm not going to buy a piece of software at that price-point that wasn't even written for the platform I'm running, just so I can buy the ruleset over again in electronic form. 

This isn't a dig on FG. It's a criticism of the approach Wizards has taken. I feel like for 5E's electronic/online solution it could have/should have tried to be more; more platform agnostic, more mobile/tablet friendly more electronic and more online.


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## Dire Bare (Apr 15, 2015)

Tony Semana said:


> Wow. I've been as excited for and supportive of 5E since the play-test. But this is a big miss-step for me; the only mac option for FG is through steam. And all that does is create a wineskin wrapper... what a sub-par option! That and fold in the pricing and this is a non-starter.




The software might not be to your tastes, and it may not be designed to work (easily) for your system, but that doesn't make it a "misstep".

This license was an excellent step for WotC and Smiteworks to make. Is the software to everyone's tastes and needs? No. But no software ever is.


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## Gecko85 (Apr 15, 2015)

Tony Semana said:


> I feel like for 5E's electronic/online solution it could have/should have tried to be more; more platform agnostic, more mobile/tablet friendly more electronic and more online.




This isn't "5E's electronic/online solution", it's ONE product that has obtained a 5e license. That's a huge difference.


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## ShadoWWW (Apr 15, 2015)

I've used PHB and MM rulesets nearly from day 1, and the overall experience is great. I love the free-form solution, which allows easy inclusion of home rules, especially when 5e is kindly opened for home rules.


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## Ghost Matter (Apr 15, 2015)

I've been mulling this over since the news has come out. I'm still on the fence.

I used Roll20 weekly and I love it. I pay for Mentor. My players love it, especially dynamic lighting. One of my ex-players was on Linux and it took no effort for them to join in.

As for Fantasy Grounds, So I guess I could pay for the Ultimate License monthly. I could scrounge up the money for the books. But I'm missing a few things:

dynamic lighting
easy cross-platform (no typing in commands or stuff like that, or buying a license on Steam) (I think that's coming with Unity?)
GM and Map layers

I might try to find a game to join as a player. Or try the Basic Rules. But, for now, I'm still not convinced.


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## smiteworks (Apr 15, 2015)

Ghost Matter said:


> I've been mulling this over since the news has come out. I'm still on the fence.
> 
> I used Roll20 weekly and I love it. I pay for Mentor. My players love it, especially dynamic lighting. One of my ex-players was on Linux and it took no effort for them to join in.
> 
> ...




I'm just curious, are there actually Linux users out there who are uncomfortable with command line stuff or installing and configuring software? Almost everyone I've ever met or known who uses Linux is an IT professional.  Granted, a lot of people I know are IT professionals, but still.

For Mac, you launch Steam, but the product or choose the Demo and click the Install button. There are no command line steps. If your players don't have Steam yet, then they are missing out on the dominant market for games. 

Our Unity build is still underway but has quite a while before it will be ready for release. 

Finally, the dynamic lighting. We don't currently support dynamic lighting. Instead, we support a fog of war via a mask that can be cut away as needed to reveal rooms or parts of the map underneath. Visibility on tokens can also be turned on or off globally or individually. On the plus side, your maps don't require you to do a bunch of additional setup in order for them to work. Most of our attention has been focused on features to help the game play faster and be easier to run for the DM and players. When you play in person, your players can typically look at a wall and realize that even though your ally can see them, your character can't.


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## Mirtek (Apr 15, 2015)

smiteworks said:


> Hello Mirtek,



 Thanks for answering.


smiteworks said:


> I'm not sure if you've run a Check for Updates recently, but we have pushed out a few data patches over the last few days.



 That's good. But do I really have to check for updates myself? Can't steam keep my software up to date?


smiteworks said:


> The Sage Personality Traits lists 8 options that can be selected or rolled randomly. The window has a scroll bar and may not show them all at once on your screen. You can use the scroll bar or the mouse-wheel while the cursor is inside that window.



 The Sage personality traits sometime list 8 options. However there seems to be a bug that sometimes restricts it to only showing the first six and no scrolling down either, the bar stops after the sixt. Propably something for your issue list.


smiteworks said:


> The Explorer's Pack is not currently bringing over the rations, the empty backpack or the rope automatically. We will add this to our fix list.



 Great


smiteworks said:


> Overall, I want to be clear to everyone reading the thread here that Fantasy Grounds is not intended as a rules validating character builder.



 IMO that's a feature you really need to add. The core class pack alone costs more than many full-fledged PC games and together with the character customization pack actually costs more than the PHB. For that much money for a software I expect more.

At the moment I have not recommended shelling out that much money to my friends who asked me how happy I am so far with my purchase. 90 EUR is a lot of many.

Note that I have yet to play, which I won't before next Wednesday. So far my only experience is to re-create my level 4 character from my P&P game and create a new level 1 character for the game on wednesday.

I might appreciate my purchase more after Wednesday, but right now I am sorry that I couldn't wait for Wednesday and first try it out with the demo but instead was so impatient that I just had to do a 90 EUR purchase immediately.



smiteworks said:


> The true power of Fantasy Grounds comes when you begin using the completed character sheet to play the game online.



 I am waiting to have my socks knocked off.


smiteworks said:


> launch attacks or spells at monsters and have it automatically determine a hit or a miss or force your targets to roll against a set saving throw. You can have it automatically deal full or half damage or apply an effect to anyone who fails.



 On of my two characters is a warlock. His spell slots become level 2 slots, is there a way that I can increase the damage of my level 1 spells to match the new slot on the character sheet? Or is this done only later in the actual game?


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## smiteworks (Apr 15, 2015)

Other than the most recent review, Fantasy Grounds has received very positive reviews here on ENWorld.  You can read them here:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?386930-Fantasy-Grounds

This was prior to the availability of official D&D content.


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## Nylanfs (Apr 15, 2015)

Fantasy Grounds runs perfectly in wine

And you can totally have GM map layers you can even run it from the same computer twice once as a player, once as the GM


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## Mirtek (Apr 15, 2015)

Another question that might be more appropriate as a general question, but FG brought this to my attention:

 Do you gain skills by multi-classing? I always thought that you don't, since they are not listed on pages 163-165 in the PHB.  Yet FG seems to think you do, when I dragged a warlock level to my fighter level FG added proficiency in the warlock skills in addition to the fighter skills.

So either this is a bug and needs to be fixed or I've been a fool all this months and my character should have been a lot better in certain things than I thought. Actually hope it's the later, can't have enought proficicent skills


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## Ghost Matter (Apr 15, 2015)

smiteworks said:


> [...]




I haven't asked the person but they are not an IT person. They got a computer with Linux pre-installed I think.

As for the Steam demo, I didn't know! I didn't see it anywhere. Thanks.

I think Dynamic Lightning is very fun and adds a lot to immersion. I don't feel like Fog of War is the same. Players can move and forth in a room while they don't see the changes in there. If I wanted that effect with Fog of War, I'd have to *constantly* change the fog during a game after the PCs exit a room.
I understand your reasoning for it but the fact is, a *lot* of players want it (I'm sure you've seen the #1 suggestion for FG) and enjoy it.


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## smiteworks (Apr 15, 2015)

[MENTION=40810]Mirtek[/MENTION],

If you have any license, you can run a Check for Updates and it will temporarily upgrade to an Ultimate license. We do this to support the community run and organized FG Con (www.fg-con.com) twice a year. That means that you can let your friends connect to you and play with just a Free/demo license until the Con is over. 

Note that you don't need the Complete Core Class Pack plus the PC Customization Pack. It's content is already included. The product details indicate this at the top of the product description. If you bought both, send your receipt to support@fantasygrounds.com and I can refund the double purchase. 

Regarding multi-classing, we have to do some more work on this area. It's on our to-do list still. Your interpretation is correct, so you'll want to unmark those so they are not shown as proficient.


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## Mirtek (Apr 15, 2015)

smiteworks said:


> Note that you don't need the Complete Core Class Pack plus the PC Customization Pack. It's content is already included.



 Wow, didn't figure that out.


smiteworks said:


> The product details indicate this at the top of the product description.



 Could it be that steam uses different description in different countries? Because from Germany, despite still displaying an english description, it says:

_"You get the class description, special features, spells and abilities used by your class and general character customization options such as equipment and feats."_ 

From this I thought that backgrounds would not be included as part of this. Maybe this could be made more fool proof by just stating that the character customization pack is fully included.



smiteworks said:


> If you bought both, send your receipt to support@fantasygrounds.com and I can refund the double purchase.



 Thank you very much! Will do so immediately. I have to say your support here is top of the class! 



smiteworks said:


> Your interpretation is correct, so you'll want to unmark those so they are not shown as proficient.



 A shame, I was really hoping for two extra skills for my character


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## Inglorin (Apr 15, 2015)

Nylanfs said:


> And you can totally have GM map layers




Really? Great to hear this. After checking out FG last week this was one of my main complaints as well: The (in-)ability to really work with the map in game. 

In roll20 I love to add little twists, items, scenery and such things to the map. With the library available I can drag and drop countless images right onto my map layer. I can prepare alternate terrain images on my GM layer to switch portions of the map out, when somethin happens and so on. It may be my missing experience with FG, but I couldn't find these features in there. 

The combat tracker, on the other hand, is great. An Excellent tool. This weekend I will have the opportunity to play a game of 5E in FG and we think about the advantages and disadvantages between our current solution (roll20) and FG. 

Re: The Sage Background - there is something wierd going on right now. My "D&D Basic Rules - Player" module has a severe error in the sage background. Part of the text is from the criminal background, the criminal background on the other hand doesn't have the tables for the personality traits at all. Only text is available. I presume that this will be fixed in the next update. 

CU,
Olav

I did make the mistake of canceling my paypal subscription after paying my initial $10 for one month. DO NOT DO THIS. When you cancel you future payments the current subscription period end immediately. The people at FG were very helpful and fixed this for me at once, but it wasn't necessary if I only had known. They told me that I could have learned this from the FAQ, but I failed there. English isn't my first language.


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## smiteworks (Apr 15, 2015)

Mirtek said:


> Wow, didn't figure that out.
> Could it be that steam uses different description in different countries? Because from Germany, despite still displaying an english description, it says:
> 
> _"You get the class description, special features, spells and abilities used by your class and general character customization options such as equipment and feats."_
> ...




Since the Complete Core Class Pack contains all 12 of the sub-packs plus the base PC customization pack, we decided that the description would get overly complicated to add this to that product. Instead, we added a single line to the top of all the sub packs that reads as follows:



> *This product is included in the D&D Complete Class Pack
> 
> Every character needs a background, some equipment and a weapon. Inside this pack, you will find information useful to all characters, no matter which class you choose to pursue. Combine this base pack with one or more class packs and head off for adventure.


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## smiteworks (Apr 15, 2015)

Nylanfs said:
			
		

> And you can totally have GM map layers.







Inglorin said:


> Really? Great to hear this. After checking out FG last week this was one of my main complaints as well: The (in-)ability to really work with the map in game.




I think he is referring to a custom extension some of the FG users wrote. There was one floating around the forums called enhanced images. We haven't incorporated this feature into the core app yet since we wanted to spend a little more time working out the exact architecture that we really wanted there.


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## Mirtek (Apr 15, 2015)

smiteworks said:


> Since the Complete Core Class Pack contains all 12 of the sub-packs plus the base PC customization pack, we decided that the description would get overly complicated to add this to that product. Instead, we added a single line to the top of all the sub packs that reads as follows:



Well, I really need to read more carefully  That's as clear as it can get


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## Inglorin (Apr 15, 2015)

smiteworks said:


> I think he is referring to a custom extension some of the FG users wrote. There was one floating around the forums called enhanced images. We haven't incorporated this feature into the core app yet since we wanted to spend a little more time working out the exact architecture that we really wanted there.




Ah, ok. Then this isn't what I meant with a GM layer. A GM layer should only be visible to the GM. The extension (if I understand it correctly) gives you three layers, but I couldn't (in the three minutes I looked at it ;-) find a way to not display a particular layer to the players or even a way to move something from one layer to another. 

While we are talking about this: Is there a way to resize the images I drop into the map freely? Meaning: I want to use stuff like benches or even trees. They should be scalable in (for example) only the x direction, while staying constant y-wise. Does FG support this? 

Thanks for your time,
Olav


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## RSKennan (Apr 15, 2015)

smiteworks said:


> I think he is referring to a custom extension some of the FG users wrote. There was one floating around the forums called enhanced images. We haven't incorporated this feature into the core app yet since we wanted to spend a little more time working out the exact architecture that we really wanted there.




If you do incorporate it, it would be great if you could put the mask on the top layer, rather than the bottom one, or otherwise allow access to the mask from any layer. That's my only gripe with the extension.


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## smiteworks (Apr 15, 2015)

I made need to leave that question up to the folks who wrote the extension. Posting the question on the FG Forum where the extension is available is probably your best bet. If you need to hide a specific token for furniture, you might be able to add it to a blank NPC record called "furniture" or something and then toggle the visibility on or off or use the mouse-wheel to scroll up and down over the token you used for it.  That seems a little bit kludgey though, so I'd recommend checking in with the extension writer.


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## Nylanfs (Apr 15, 2015)

Hehehe, furniture as tokens, mark them as gm visible only. Then tell the players they are walking into invis furniture. :-D


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## Nylanfs (Apr 15, 2015)

smiteworks said:


> I think he is referring to a custom extension some of the FG users wrote. There was one floating around the forums called enhanced images. We haven't incorporated this feature into the core app yet since we wanted to spend a little more time working out the exact architecture that we really wanted there.



Yea, I keep forgetting that was community made.


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## Mirtek (Apr 15, 2015)

smiteworks said:


> Note that you don't need the Complete Core Class Pack plus the PC Customization Pack. It's content is already included. The product details indicate this at the top of the product description. If you bought both, send your receipt to support@fantasygrounds.com and I can refund the double purchase.



 Wow, already received the refund. Top-notch customer support!


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## Nylanfs (Apr 16, 2015)

And that's why Smiteworks is awesome.


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## Werebat (Apr 16, 2015)

Price WILL go down, folks -- they're just trying to milk the fanbois while they can.  This product will be a must have for me once it does.


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## Dire Bare (Apr 17, 2015)

Werebat said:


> Price WILL go down, folks -- they're just trying to milk the fanbois while they can.  This product will be a must have for me once it does.




That's insulting. Both to the "fanbois" (man I hate that condescending term) and to the fine folks at Smiteworks. Welcome to my ignore list, sir!


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## Werebat (Apr 17, 2015)

Dire Bare said:


> That's insulting. Both to the "fanbois" (man I hate that condescending term) and to the fine folks at Smiteworks. Welcome to my ignore list, sir!




Thanks, but I'm not interested in being on your list, and do not wish to receive any unsolicited e-mails to this address.


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## RSKennan (Apr 17, 2015)

I've never known Smiteworks to operate that way. For example the license I bought years ago was the same price then as it is today.


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## fewilcox (Apr 17, 2015)

I'm still trying to figure out why I would want to spend that much when I can get Roll20 (which we Kickstarted) and MapTool for free.



God said:


> That's a lot of filthy lucre, considering you can get all three dead-tree rulebook for about $100 on Amazon. But I guess in the digital age this kind of pricing scheme makes sense?



Kingdom of Loathing? It's one of the very few video games my wife and I still play.


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## RSKennan (Apr 17, 2015)

I don't know if I said this here or not, but Roll20 is like a bicycle, Maptool is like a car you build yourself (or have a friend build), and Fantasy Grounds is like a luxury car. All three will get you where you're going, but at different speeds, and with different amounts of automation. 

With Roll20, you have to do all the work to move the pedals, unless you pay money and learn how to code it into a motorcycle. Unfortunately, though, someone else owns the bike, and you rent or borrow it. 

With Maptool, you rely on your own mechanical aptitude or that of others to make it go. It may not be as pretty as an expensive car, but it can do nearly as much. It's all yours, and you can do whatever you like with it. 

With Fantasy Grounds,  you pay for flawless engineering, and sleek design. You get where you're going in style, and the car is virtually self driving. To strain the analogy, it definitely has bells and whistles like a rear-view camera, and self-parking at the very least. You still have the option to get under the hood and improve it though. It's yours too.


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## Herobizkit (Apr 17, 2015)

[MENTION=87795]smiteworks[/MENTION]: How modular are the various packs across different settings? 

For example, I'm currently running a Kingmaker (Pathfinder) game using 5e rules.  If you were to have maps, encounters, xp values etc. "keyed" to the Pathfinder system, how much unfurling would need to be done to use the same information with a 5e ruleset?


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## Blackbrrd (Apr 17, 2015)

Dire Bare said:


> That's insulting. Both to the "fanbois" (man I hate that condescending term) and to the fine folks at Smiteworks. Welcome to my ignore list, sir!



A condenscendig tone, but probably true. It's pretty much standard practise to sell your digital stuff expensive to begin with, and then after a while, cut down the price to reach a larger market. Nothing wrong with that.


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## Nylanfs (Apr 17, 2015)

Herobizkit said:


> [MENTION=87795]smiteworks[/MENTION]: How modular are the various packs across different settings?
> 
> For example, I'm currently running a Kingmaker (Pathfinder) game using 5e rules.  If you were to have maps, encounters, xp values etc. "keyed" to the Pathfinder system, how much unfurling would need to be done to use the same information with a 5e ruleset?



It would take next to no work. The encounters would need redone but everything else can be moved fairly easily. Especially if it's your own maps and images, those are all stored in your campaign directory.


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## smiteworks (Apr 17, 2015)

Herobizkit said:


> [MENTION=87795]smiteworks[/MENTION]: How modular are the various packs across different settings?
> 
> For example, I'm currently running a Kingmaker (Pathfinder) game using 5e rules.  If you were to have maps, encounters, xp values etc. "keyed" to the Pathfinder system, how much unfurling would need to be done to use the same information with a 5e ruleset?




Maps can be re-used, and you can even set it to re-use story entries to some degree. Many other features are slightly different between the two systems though. For instance, NPC records look substantially different between different rulesets - with the exception of 3.5E and Pathfinder. That means that if you were to build a bunch of content and then use the /export command to make those into a reusable module, it would only be recognized in other campaigns using the same ruleset. If you restricted your export selection to only include images and stories, you could edit the .mod file that was created and change the definition.xml file inside it to set it as <ruleset>Any</ruleset> instead of <ruleset>5E</ruleset>. We do this with several of the map packs from 0One Games. In those cases we created place-holders for each of the locations on the maps that you can edit inside your campaign to fill in what is in each room. This allows you to fill it in differently for each campaign that you use it in, and it doesn't matter what the ruleset is.


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## smiteworks (Apr 17, 2015)

Blackbrrd said:


> A condenscendig tone, but probably true. It's pretty much standard practise to sell your digital stuff expensive to begin with, and then after a while, cut down the price to reach a larger market. Nothing wrong with that.




We periodically have sales. On one occasion, we were able to discount an entire line of products from Pinnacle Entertainment Games (for Savage Worlds) because they did a complete re-pricing of all their PDFs.


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## Dire Bare (Apr 17, 2015)

Blackbrrd said:


> A condenscendig tone, but probably true. It's pretty much standard practise to sell your digital stuff expensive to begin with, and then after a while, cut down the price to reach a larger market. Nothing wrong with that.




For video games, maybe. But not really for RPG digital tools.

And it's never to milk the early adopters (or "fanbois"), but to simply recoup costs, as software programming is expensive. Video games drop in price after a while, because new copies wouldn't sell much otherwise.

Niche software of any type is typically expensive, because the costs aren't brought down by gazillions of copies being sold. And RPG tabletop tool software is very niche. Smiteworks product is expensive, but it is a very reasonable and fair sort of expensive. And not likely to drop in price anytime soon unless the D&D license is VERY, VERY (Baldur's Gate type) successful (which I don't expect).


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## smiteworks (Apr 17, 2015)

A new D&D Fifth Edition session just got launched and is accepting players for a Saturday, one shot game on Fantasy Grounds. Since it is part of FG Con, playing is completely free. Go to www.fg-con.com to sign up and follow the links to get all the software and info you need.
http://www.fg-con.com/events/baron28s-dd-5e-keep-on-the-borderlands-one-shot-2/


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## Blackbrrd (Apr 18, 2015)

Dire Bare said:


> For video games, maybe. But not really for RPG digital tools.
> 
> And it's never to milk the early adopters (or "fanbois"), but to simply recoup costs, as software programming is expensive. Video games drop in price after a while, because new copies wouldn't sell much otherwise.
> 
> Niche software of any type is typically expensive, because the costs aren't brought down by gazillions of copies being sold. And RPG tabletop tool software is very niche. Smiteworks product is expensive, but it is a very reasonable and fair sort of expensive. And not likely to drop in price anytime soon unless the D&D license is VERY, VERY (Baldur's Gate type) successful (which I don't expect).



It isn't about milking your customers, that wasn't my words. That was what I found condecending.

If you look at what I write, I write that it's common practise to sell as much as possible, to as high a price as possible. If you look at what they say themselves, they do say that they have occational sales etc. Basically, selling first without rebates, and then having sales afterwards to drive sales of items that doesn't sell well. This way they generate publicity and probably sell more of those items afterwards.

I am a software developer myself, in a company with three employees and I know how expensive it is to create software, and much you need to take if the software doesn't sell to a wide audience.


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## Mistwell (Apr 18, 2015)

RSKennan said:


> I don't know if I said this here or not, but Roll20 is like a bicycle, Maptool is like a car you build yourself (or have a friend build), and Fantasy Grounds is like a luxury car. All three will get you where you're going, but at different speeds, and with different amounts of automation.




Let me know when your luxury car can do the dynamic lighting the bicycle can do.



> With Roll20, you have to do all the work to move the pedals, unless you pay money and learn how to code it into a motorcycle.




You apparently missed the release of the 5e character sheets for Roll20 as well.  Between that and the dynamic lighting, I suspect it must have been quite some time since you used Roll20.  It's a Buick now.


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## Selvarin (Apr 18, 2015)

Dire Bare said:


> I think your website is clear, and this has also been made clear in this thread . . . but I still think lots of folks aren't getting it, sadly. Criticizing the software for not being a character builder is like criticizing an orange for not being an apple. You might want an apple, but to complain about the orange not being one is a bit silly.
> 
> This is not on Smiteworks in any way, but I wish WotC had delivered (or licensed) a character builder first to lessen the confusion. But, I suppose, you work with what you have and FG is an amazing virtual tabletop that only needed the datasets to become the official D&D virtual tabletop. There is not likely a ready-to-go 5E character builder just waiting for a license.




It's not silly, because gamers have various needs and some people *really* want a program that is good at one or two things. In my case I have a lot of characters--PCs and NCPs--and I want something that looks good, does *not* require me to keep opening up windows in order to do X Y and Z. I want something that can crunch the numbers, throw in specifics relating to race and class (in this area having drag-and-drop would be tolerable), and print well should I so desire.

In my instance I wanted to test it out and, eventually, the rest of the software suite since it's multifunctional. At the time it didn't make sense for me to pay for Core Rules at $2.99 or whatever because I wanted full access in order to test the capabilities. I now know there's a way to get the 'Basic' package without $$, but that's a little too late. I did what I did in order to properly test the features which mattered to me. Not my cup of tea, although I'll keep updating and see if someday it gets to be the way I need it to be.

So...

1) I agree with you in that a Character Builder--a program that does nothing else but create characters--would have been nice first. It would be nice having that as a separate program or module, with the base classes already included--no $$ purchase or back-door workaround, have it in so people can try it without having to resort to forum searches and what not. Then, if you want more you can purchase the program suite and just 'plug' it in. 

2) As it stands the character creation process is more of a chore because of that 'open book' method --> Open X --> open Y --> Remember you can access Z *here* --> ad infinitum. For character creation the creation sheet itself should be the focus--let me type in 'fighter' and have the program look it up, click OK and then type in the number of levels. The way I'm thinking it can be done (which is more user friendly) differs from the current experience. The books/packs we purchase should click right in. The rest of the process should be less visible. I've tried other tool kits that related to older editions of D&D, it *can* be done.

3) As a more specific gripe, related to AC. ON the Combat Calc, perhaps the base figure can be tied directly to a section on inventory where Armor/Protection should. Whatever relates to that should directly show up for the Base AC. That would be nice.



Again, best wishes to FG. May they sell a lot and improve their product. But I can see there's still a lot of room for another team to make different design choices and come out with a design that fits some functions better. Since character creation/management is an important part--and the one which matters to me--I hope someone gets it right. I'm not asking for the ghost of Steve Jobs to come back and assist, but I can see where the design needs a fix. Too bad D&D isn't free/open source.


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## RSKennan (Apr 18, 2015)

> You apparently missed the release of the 5e character sheets for Roll20 as well. Between that and the dynamic lighting, I suspect it must have been quite some time since you used Roll20. It's a Buick now.



I use it every week for GURPS.


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## Dire Bare (Apr 18, 2015)

Blackbrrd said:


> It isn't about milking your customers, that wasn't my words. That was what I found condecending.
> 
> If you look at what I write, I write that it's common practice to sell as much as possible, to as high a price as possible. If you look at what they say themselves, they do say that they have occasional sales etc. Basically, selling first without rebates, and then having sales afterwards to drive sales of items that doesn't sell well. This way they generate publicity and probably sell more of those items afterwards.
> 
> I am a software developer myself, in a company with three employees and I know how expensive it is to create software, and much you need to take if the software doesn't sell to a wide audience.




We may be talking past one another, if so, sorry. Also not trying to put words in your mouth either . . . when I respond to your post, I'm certainly responding to things that you say (or at least, my interpretation of them), but I'm also using your post as a springboard to further discussion. In other words, it isn't all about you (and I don't mean that condescendingly, just trying to explain). You didn't use the term "milking" or even implied it, those are my words. I'm also furthering the conversation with the guy who used the term "fanbois", not that I can see his posts anymore.

My interp of your post was what I see happening with video games, both on services like Steam and GoG as well as on the retail shelves. New video games often retail for $60 or more (not counting "special limited" editions), and at some point thereafter, can drop to much, much lower prices. Not sales, but lower MSRPs. I'm not a software person, but my take on that is that the initial sales run on a video game is when the bulk of the sales happen and the profit is really made. When I purchase an older game on Steam for $10, the game developer is making minimal profit of my purchase, but if the price were higher, I'd probably go buy a new game from somebody else.

I don't think niche software follows that sales model (but again, not a software person). Sure, Smiteworks offers sales, but they haven't lowered the MSRP of Fantasy Grounds and probably won't. And the software plus its expansions will most likely remain expensive, but fairly so.

Is Smiteworks charging as much as they possibly can for the Fantasy Grounds software? I hope so! They deserve a fair return on all of their work and investment!


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## Dire Bare (Apr 18, 2015)

Selvarin said:


> It's not silly, because gamers have various needs and some people *really* want a program that is good at one or two things.




Yes, it is silly. Gamers don't have *needs*, they have *wants*. And not having all of those *wants* satisfied right away isn't really a problem, although it can be frustrating. All IMO, of course. 

(not totally aimed at Selverin, but in general)

It's not on Smiteworks to develop a product based on what YOU want. They developed the product THEY wanted to build, and then later landed a license to add official D&D content to their existing product. If the product isn't what you want, don't buy it. To complain about it not being what it is not, that is ridiculous.

If Smiteworks hears lots of honest feedback and decides to develop a standalone, rules validating character builder, well that's gravy!

It's a bit more reasonable to be frustrated with WotC for not licensing a character builder first, but still, folks need to chill. WotC did try to deliver a character builder first with the DungeonScape licensed program, but that fell through. Boo-hoo. Smiteworks was ready to go with an existing virtual tabletop . . . should WotC have WAITED until they could get somebody else to develop a character builder before licensing with Smiteworks? I'm glad they didn't!

In a perfect world, the character builder would have come first, followed by a virtual tabletop. But, you know, sometimes life just doesn't work out the way you'd like, and it isn't really anybody's "fault" and complaining serves no purpose other than to raise your blood pressure and annoy others around you.


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## Selvarin (Apr 18, 2015)

Are you.....kidding?

Holy...you have it bass ackwards.

Actually, YES, as a customer, it is. If I have a need (or 'want'), it's something I'm willing to pay for if *I* see it is being provided. The main quibble I have is in the 'flow' to get from point A to point B and finally point C. It is a choice of design which I dislike--and yes, it is legitimate.

The best designs are the ones which flow with the user's actions. It is the difference between Windows 7 and Window 8/8.1, if you will. Both will generally do the same thing but Windows 8's interface gets in the way of what I want to do. So I will prefer to use Windows 7 or its successor, Windows 10. It's kind of like Common Core Math vs. the Real World. Why take 2 minutes to write out a calculation for 9x6 when there are simpler, shorter methods to get to the same answer? 

That is as simple as it gets.

Company A or B has every right to build a widget which does things a certain way that works. And no doubt a lot of people like or don't mind how it's done. But--to me--the interface and the method of getting to where I want doesn't work. 

When it comes to design, the best ones are where the engineer builds something, they step back and ask themselves, "OK, it works. Now how does it best work for the customer?" A lot of software over the years has failed in that respect, because it work quite like the customer needs it to. The ideal is for the program to enhance/improve what a user wishes to do. In A, B, and C it does just fine. In D it doesn't, and it's based upon design choices and not bugs or kludges.

I don't think anyone is asking for it to fly and do cartwheels. Some of us are just saying it doesn't handle certain things more fluidly. It's not impossible, it was just designed differently.

Have a good weekend, everyone!


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## Dire Bare (Apr 18, 2015)

Selvarin said:


> Are you.....kidding? Holy...you have it bass ackwards.




I'm assuming you are politely responding to me. Calm down tiger, it's okay!



> Actually, YES, as a customer, it is. If I have a need (or 'want'), it's something I'm willing to pay for if *I* see it is being provided. The main quibble I have is in the 'flow' to get from point A to point B and finally point C. It is a choice of design which I dislike--and yes, it is legitimate.




Didn't quite follow your entire "flow" post, but I still disagree (obviously, I suppose).

If a company, lets say Smiteworks, sees a customer desire for a virtual tabletop, and builds one, they most certainly are responding to consumer wants. However, they are choosing WHICH consumer wants match up to their own desires on what to make, and we get Fantasy Grounds. Which is a virtual tabletop, not a character builder.

If you aren't in the market for a virtual tabletop, and you want a character builder, then you are being foolish for criticizing Smiteworks for not being a character builder. You may want a character builder, you may be disappointment that nobody's built you one yet, but your complaints are foolish. Note, your desire to have an official D&D character builder is NOT foolish, just complaining that Fantasy Grounds isn't that thing is the foolish part.

If you want a fully integrated virtual tabletop AND character builder in one product (I'd love that!), then after learning that still, Fantasy Grounds is not that, you are still foolish for complaining, IMO. You are fully justified in being bummed, disappointed, and frustrated that this product is not for you. You are fine stating that, until you see such a product, your money stays in your wallet. You are fine letting WotC know what you want them to make or license that will meet your needs. But becoming upset and complaining to folks who make software that they didn't build the product YOU want . . . that's the fan sense of entitlement that gets me so irritated in our hobby.

I personally would love a 3D virtual tabletop with a fully integrated, rules-validating, character builder. I want a full suite of integrated player and DM tools that will knock my socks off! Fully 3D virtual miniatures on fully 3D tiles/maps . . . it would even be cool if they made neat sounds when you "moved" the miniatures on the battlemap (RAWRRRR!). I want what WotC teased with their plans for 3E and 4E digital tools, but sadly never came to pass. Fantasy Grounds is not that product. Does that make FG a poor product, or give me the right to bitch they aren't meeting all of MY needs? Not IMO. It's a good piece of software that does a LOT of what I want, but not ALL of what I want. But I don't see a competing product that does, so I'm playing around with FG. Happily, without complaint. And making suggestions to Smiteworks, not complaints, whenever I can think of an idea that I would love for them to work on to improve FG.

Perhaps that where we don't see eye-to-eye is semantics. Are we stuck on using the positive word "suggestion" vs the negative word "complain"? I dunno, but I am a glass-half-full kinda guy, who is tired of glass-half-empty folks raining on my parade (wow, mixed metaphors, sorry).


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## Doc_Klueless (Apr 20, 2015)

Played today in a FG-Con 5e game. It went surprisingly well. A little awkward as several of us either hadn't used FG or hadn't used it since 2004 (me! ME! I'm OOOOOOOLD!) With Teamspeak it wasn't too bad. Not F2F for sure, but darn close.

The level of automation and ease of use baked into FG made it quite fun. I liked it better than my few sessions on roll20, but not well enough to leave roll20 behind. Now I have TWO VTT to choose from and that ain't a bad thing.

In short: It was worth the 39.95 I spent on it 11 years ago! Hahahahaaaa... aaaah.


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## Nylanfs (Apr 20, 2015)

Update on FG-Con that wrapped up LATE last night

Highlights:

56 sessions. Compared with 48 events at FG Con V, 39 events at FG Con IV and 23 events in FG Con III. That's a 16% increase from V to VI - which is great and makes for sustained growth at future conventions At one point we actually had nearly 60 events registered, but some of those didn't go ahead due to low player booking or other not-to-be-forseen issues. My main goal for this convention was to top 50 session, so I'm really pleased we did that.
For the first time, we have some organised play events other than Pathfinder Society - Dungeons and Dragons 5E Adventurers Leagues - a very welcome addition to the events at FG Con.
320 (approx) player sessions booked. Compared with 281 at FG Con IV and 120 at FG Con III. A 14% increase from FG Con V to VI.
Over 22,300 site visits, a 10% increase from FG Con V.
A few GM details:

First event - Blackfoot (FG Con veteran) and FG Con newbie HoloGnome - both running Pathfinder Society games.
Last event - Blackfoot's Champions Playtest and HoloGnome's PFS Valley of the Veiled Flame. (Notice some Symetry here?)
Most events - HoloGnome - 4.
Joint second (3 sessions): Draca, ShotGunJolly, Gadreun, Trenloe (I don't know why people play his games - he's a NUT!)
Joint seventh (2 sessions): Blackfoot, cmdisc, Damned, LordKavos ,Mask_Of_Winter, RobG, Skellan, Stollesson, Sunspoticus, Valarian, Xazil.
17 other GMs.


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## Lwaxy (Apr 20, 2015)

And I played in 2 of the 5e events and must say that the product looks amazing! So it might be expensive, but if you like FG2 in general and want to run a 5e campaign sometime soon, you and your players may want to invest in it. I just don't have the money to do so.


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## YourSwordIsMine (Apr 20, 2015)

I was only able to play in one of the 4 I signed up for sadly. Other things got in the way last minute. 

I was impressed with the ease of use FG has. Whenever I am able, I'll be buying a copy for myself. It should give me another outlet for gaming since I am unable to get out as much as I would like. I look forward to the next FG-Con.


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## Werebat (Apr 22, 2015)

Dire Bare said:


> I'm assuming you are politely responding to me. Calm down tiger, it's okay!




Heh...  It's been amusing reading this exchange.  Dire Bare, I know you can't read this, but thanks a lot for showing me the light on how to be more polite in posting to this forum.  Ha!

Speaking of what players WANT, as opposed to what's available, what I'd like is a 5E rules concordance that I can use to search for keywords in the core books (and any books that come out afterwards) and then read the source material on.  I have a great program for Pathfinder that does this on my iPad.  It's called "PFRPG rd" and has the silhouette of a dragon on the little square doohickey you press to make it open.  Has all the PF books on it and cost me maybe $20 when I bought it -- probably less than that.

I want this for the concordance as well as the fact that my eyes aren't what they used to be.  I'm getting older and often have to remove my glasses when I want to read.  The 5th Edition books were not printed in a manner that was very friendly to middle-aged eyes.  The text is abnormally faint, for example.

I thought the product being discussed here was something like that, but it seems like it's really some kind of online gaming platform virtual tabletop thing.

Anyone know if what I'm looking for exists out there somewhere?


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## Ghost Matter (Apr 23, 2015)

Played during FG Con. While I enjoyed Fantasy Grounds, the automation is not enough for me to switch from Roll20. The only advantage, right now, that Fantasy Grounds has are the integrated rules. Still, I have a more favorable opinion of it now.


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## Psikerlord# (Apr 24, 2015)

Interesting  - what does roll20 do better than FG ? 

Is it just dynamic lighting?


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## Lwaxy (Apr 24, 2015)

No, not only, and DL is only available if you pay, anyway. I seem many advantages in R20, and I see as many in FG2 - it is a bit depending on your style of gaming I think. 

For one, FG2 is free unless you want all the bells and whistles. It is way easier to quick set up a game as you  can just drag in all the graphics you want, and if you search the net you do not even need to save them on your account. You can access the game everywhere at any time, not depending on if the GM is online or on what machines you've got it installed. And you can appoint co-GMs easily. For a game with switching GMs or a pool group with multiple GMs to begin with, this is priceless. 

On the downside, making it this easy can also men some campaigns will not run that long or start ill prepared because the GM has not put much effort in beforehand. I have found that with FG2, if a GM commits to a game and gets the first few sessions of a campaign running, they are more likely to stick with it, although it might have just been me with this experience. Plus, in FG2, you can easily play with any group of inexperienced players, which is especially cool for one shots. They don't need to get much of the rules as the program is doing all the calculations for them. They just need to roll what they are told to roll and can, if interested, learn the rules little by little while already getting into the art of roleplaying.


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## UngainlyTitan (Apr 24, 2015)

Well I have run session on Roll20 and me and my group have decided to switch to Fantasy Grounds. I have not yet run a proper session in Fantasy grounds yet. We are still getting to grips with The UI setting up characters and so forth. 
Frankly I find that, from a DM point of view FG offers a much better experience than Roll20. simply hte fact that i can have all my notes in the system hyperlinked to each other, to encounters, map locations and major NPCs. The ease of simply draging in monsters from the monster manual is a huge plus for me and well worth the cost. It is also pretty simple to setup an automate a custom monster or npc. 
I may add more here when we get running properly.


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## smiteworks (Apr 24, 2015)

While there is a fair amount of automation for players, the main focus of the app is to improve upon the experience as a Dungeon Master. I'm glad to see that you are enjoying it so far.


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## Rhenny (Apr 24, 2015)

I gave Roll20 a go, but found it less responsive.  It may be my computer having issues with it, but the movement and scrolling seemed to lag or be harder to control.  Since one of my DMs used FG, I switched over and with a little tutoring from him, I started to love it.  I think it is worth the time (and money) I invested learning how to use it.  Using maps is a breeze.  Character sheets are terrific, and it is pretty easy to set up rolls and effects in the character sheet.   I like how there are multiple ways to use it.  For example, you can target a creature and attack so that it is fully automated if you have everything set up.   You can also just set up the attack and damage rolls and roll in chat.  Then the DM can apply the damage to the creature manually by dragging the chat damage onto the creature.   You can even do everything completely manually if you don't want to spend time setting up character sheets, etc.


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## Uchawi (Apr 24, 2015)

Overall, the monster manual pack is probably the closest to meeting the content to price ratio. I believe what players want out of digital content, is digital content. They already have the rules for free, or purchased the players handbook. So digital portraits, tokens, maps, objects (chairs, tables), etc. is what is going to sell FG content. That will also create a bridge to use the same material for other games. Paying again for the rules and only having a token offering (pun intended) for characters portraits and tokens appears to be the minimal effort at a higher price.


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## jimmifett (Apr 24, 2015)

The waifu picked up Ultimate for me, so I'll be playing with that tonight/this weekend. Definately looking forward to using 5e content and swrpg (community mod) stuff.


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## Lwaxy (Apr 24, 2015)

Annoyingly, for me it is FG2 which tends to be laggy after an hour or two of play at least or downright kicks me out, and it doesn't work when I'm on WiFi. So I can use it a lot less than I would want. 

You can also drag the damage onto your opponents yourself btw. 

I have to say, tokens and maps etc are of little importance to me. I agree I do not like to buy the content again, but then I don't have to manually add it to the program. Maps and tokens I have aplenty and can use them in FG2 already, and I have a seemingly unending library of maps - plus the commercial adventures do come with their own maps anyway.


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## Obvious_Ninja (Apr 25, 2015)

[MENTION=87795]smiteworks[/MENTION] I hate to ask this... and it may have been answered and I may have missed it. Is there a release date or the DMG or the two adventures beyond LMoP? How are you handling the EE Players Companion? Are the new race option and spells going to be included with the EE expansion for Fantasy Grounds? Just curious. My group is using Roll20 for now but I think we're ready to jump over! Thanks for the info and thanks for being so responsive on this board!


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## Ghost Matter (Apr 25, 2015)

Psikerlord# said:


> Interesting  - what does roll20 do better than FG ?
> 
> Is it just dynamic lighting?




It's not a question of better, in my case. I'm just too invested in Roll20 and nothing in FG really caught me and made me want to switch. I think it's a great program, I just don't feel the need to use it. I don't mind running stuff manually, it feels more like at a table too.


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## smiteworks (Apr 25, 2015)

Obvious_Ninja said:


> [MENTION=87795]smiteworks[/MENTION] I hate to ask this... and it may have been answered and I may have missed it. Is there a release date or the DMG or the two adventures beyond LMoP? How are you handling the EE Players Companion? Are the new race option and spells going to be included with the EE expansion for Fantasy Grounds? Just curious. My group is using Roll20 for now but I think we're ready to jump over! Thanks for the info and thanks for being so responsive on this board!




We have submitted Hoard of the Dragon Queen for review by Wizards of the Coast. The Rise of Tiamat is mostly complete and ready to submit after Hoard passes. The DMG and Princes of the Apocalypse are still in the works. We don't yet have an ETA for those. Eventually, we should get close to releasing simultaneously but we still have some work to catch up on. The new races will be included with the PotA adventure, but we might look at doing something separate as well. We need to discuss this with our contacts.


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## Rhenny (Apr 25, 2015)

Having the DMG treasure/magic items in tables (with specific drag and drop items) will be very helpful.  I'll definitely buy that.


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## UngainlyTitan (Apr 25, 2015)

This is good to hear.


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## Psikerlord# (Apr 26, 2015)

Ghost Matter said:


> It's not a question of better, in my case. I'm just too invested in Roll20 and nothing in FG really caught me and made me want to switch. I think it's a great program, I just don't feel the need to use it. I don't mind running stuff manually, it feels more like at a table too.




Ah yep gotcha. I have only been playing/DMing Roll20 for about 8 months, so it is easier for me to make the switch.


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## smiteworks (Jun 11, 2015)

I apologize in advance for the thread necro, but I thought that I would share that the 2015 Summer Sale just launched on Steam and we have matched the discounts on our storefront too. You can now get all Fantasy Grounds 1-time licenses and all the adventures and complete packs for D&D at 30% off. To put it into perspective, if you were looking at getting $250 worth of stuff, then this sale will save you a cool $75.

Fantasy Grounds store:
http://www.fantasygrounds.com/store

Steam Product Page with DLC listed:
http://store.steampowered.com/app/252690/

If you bought your copy on Steam, then you can pick up additional purchases through Steam or through our website and they will work the same for you. If you have a Mac, you might want to buy the core license on Steam; however, all DLC will need to be purchased through our store.


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## BrockBallingdark (Jun 11, 2015)

I think this Summer sale will get me to upgrade to Ultimate, I can't pass up on this deal.


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## Doc_Klueless (Jun 12, 2015)

BrockBallingdark said:


> I think this Summer sale will get me to upgrade to Ultimate, I can't pass up on this deal.



That's what I did to me. I was a subscriber and have been using it for a couple of months as an ultimate. Loving it. So this just tipped me over into "Let's Do It!" land.


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## ShadoWWW (Jun 12, 2015)

So did I. I had one GM license and four Player licenses, so I happily upgraded to the Ultimate one. ;-)


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## Nylanfs (Jun 12, 2015)

ShadoWWW said:


> So did I. I had one GM license and four Player licenses, so I happily upgraded to the Ultimate one. ;-)



Did you know that you can hand those player licenses off to your players and they can buy a Full license for a discount.


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## ShadoWWW (Jun 12, 2015)

Nylanfs said:


> Did you know that you can hand those player licenses off to your players and they can buy a Full license for a discount.




I didn't know. I thought the licenses are related to my account on FG web store. How can I pass them to my players to use them for the discounts?


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## Nylanfs (Jun 12, 2015)

Email support@fantasygrounds.com and let Doug know you are handing x key to y forum account, and that player clicks on the upgrade button in the FG ui and purchases the upgrade using that key.


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## Doc_Klueless (Jun 20, 2015)

Here's one of the key features of Fantasy Grounds that you can't see in the program itself: _the incredibly helpful community and developers._

I was having some difficulties getting a free person to connect to my Ultimate license, posted a quick question to the Forums there, and within minutes (seconds?) one of the developers and a couple of users popped by, connected to my Fantasy Grounds campaign, diagnosed the problem and gave me the solution ((which was that the Free dude needed to do a simple click on Update from v.3.0.1.2 to the current version v.3.1.1 which took, oh, roughly 30 seconds.)

Couldn't have done it without everybody's help.

I may be turning into something I've never been before: a die-hard fan.


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## smiteworks (Jun 20, 2015)

Doc_Klueless said:


> Here's one of the key features of Fantasy Grounds that you can't see in the program itself: the incredibly helpful community and developers.




That's good to hear. Each of the developers (2 owners + 1 official dev) all started out as community members and had a similar experience. We became die-hard fans ourselves before becoming owners of the company in 2009.


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