# Deities & Demigods



## Derulbaskul (Apr 3, 2002)

Wow! Great book!

Greyhawk, Greek, Egyptian and Norse pantheons;  a few "filler" deities up the back and a collection of great rules for DIY Pantheons.

A few temple maps that will come in handy, new (ie regurgitated from FRCS et al) spells, new domains (including, finally, repose for those "good" death clerics), monsters such as the minion of Set and cyclops, blah, blah, blah....

OK, I only had fifteen minutes at the end of lunch but I really did like what I was able to quickly read. I will post a proper list of contents then too if anyone is interested.

However, Gruumsh's home plane is listed as Acheron? Huh? Someone forgot to read the alignment change for 3E....

Cheers
NPP


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## Nightfall (Apr 3, 2002)

Okay just confirm or deny this: IS there a section on the Demon Princes AND the Arch Devils of Hell? 

Also any chance you could list the domains? Any Prestige Domains?


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## Derulbaskul (Apr 3, 2002)

> Okay just confirm or deny this: IS there a section on the Demon > Princes AND the Arch Devils of Hell? 

Nope, although Tiamat gets a guernsey.

> Also any chance you could list the domains? Any Prestige
> Domains?

Yep, I'll do that tonight (in about five hours).

Cheers
NPP


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## LordMelkor{Talos} (Apr 3, 2002)

Any new prestige classes?


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## Derulbaskul (Apr 3, 2002)

LordMelkor{Talos} said:
			
		

> *Any new prestige classes? *




Yes, I'll include a list tonight.

Cheers
NPP


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## Harlequin (Apr 3, 2002)

*Cant Wait !*

Oooo this is exciting !

Cant wait for this Book! and the ELH


Harlequin


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## Derulbaskul (Apr 3, 2002)

Here's a brief outline:

Chapter One: Deities in Your Game (ideas on how to build pantheons etc...)
Chapter Two: Deities Defined (basically a breakdown of a deity's stat block- details of powers, divine feats etc...)
Chapter Three: The D&D Pantheon (all your GH favourites... more or less, plus Bahamut, Kurtulmak, Lolth and Tiamat)
Chapter Four: The Olympian Pantheon (including the cyclops and faun as new monsters)
Chapter Five: The Pharaonic Pantheon (including the option of worshiping the pantheon and two new monsters: the minion of Set and the greater mummy template)
Chapter Six: The Asgardian Pantheon (including einheriar, valkyries and the berserk prestige class)
Chapter Seven: Other Religions (four new deities, two of whom have their own special prestige class, the Justiciar of Taiia and the Soldier of Light)
Appendix 1: Domains and Spells (only a couple of surprises if you don't already have the FRCS and DOTF)
"New" domains: Artifice (new), Charm, Community, Creation, Darkness, Glory, Liberation (new), Madness, Nobility, Repose (finally!), Rune, Scalykind, Weather. There are no prestige domains which, hopefully, signals the demise of that silly idea (IMO).
"New" spells: Armour of Darkness, Blacklight, Bolt of Glory, Bolts of Bedevilment, Crown of Glory, Genesis, Hardening, Maddening Scream, Rage, Surelife, Touch of Madness, True Creation and Undeath to Death
Appendix 2: Divine Ascension (although I doubt I would ever run a campaign along these lines, there are some good ideas here)

Artwork: lush! outstanding! There really are some wonderful pieces here although my Wayne Reynolds bias means that my eye was immediately drawn to a couple of his works in particular.

Now that that's been read, on to Prophecies of the Dragon (which actually looks fantastic)....

Cheers
NPP


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## LordMelkor{Talos} (Apr 3, 2002)

Thanks Derulbaskul! Some questions:

-What are Vecna`s classes and levels?

-Only one new prestige class?

-Is Greek pantheon chaotic oriented? 

- If you have time, could you list deities described with Divine Rank and alingment?


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## Derren (Apr 3, 2002)

Bolt of Glory ?
Divine Ascension ?
Sure that there are no Bhaalspawn in the book? 

Are Bahamut and Tiamat only reprints from the MotP ?


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## Derulbaskul (Apr 3, 2002)

Hi LordMelkor,

-What are Vecna`s classes and levels?

Wiz20/Clr20, divine rank 10 (480 hit points- not having Con bonuses sure hurts!)

-Only one new prestige class?

No, three. One in Chapter Six and two in Chapter Seven.

-Is Greek pantheon chaotic oriented? 

See the list in reply to your next question.

- If you have time, could you list deities described with Divine Rank and alingment?

Zeus, greater, CG
Aphrodite, intermediate, CG
Apollo, I, CG
Ares, I, CE
Artemis, I, NG
Athena, G, LG
Demeter, L, N
Dionysus, I, CN
Hades, G, NE
Hecate, I, NE
Hephaestus, I, NG
Hera, G, N
Hercules, D, CG
Hermes, I, CG
Hestia, L, NG
Nike, D, LN
Pan, L, CN
Poseidon, G, CN
Tyche, L, N

Cheers
NPP


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## LordMelkor{Talos} (Apr 3, 2002)

What!? Vecna, greatest mage of Oerth, is only 20th level wizard?! It is a shame, he should be 20th Wizard/20th Cleric/10th True Necromancer( wizard`s levels)/5th archmage, this way he would have arcane caster level of 40th, like Karsus, who also managed to become God through his magic.  Is Boccob also so weak as an arcane spellcaster?


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## LordMelkor{Talos} (Apr 3, 2002)

Not to mention that Zeus as CG makes no sense, he was guardian of Laws, Oaths and Property! Sounds more like LG. And Arthemis NG! She is an epithomy of CN, wild huntress who doesn`t have much mercy for mortals( see Akteon and Niobe).

Anyway thanks for your info Derulbalskul, forgive my little rant, could you also list Egyptian and Norse Pantheons? Which deities have Divine Rank of 20( I assume head of pantheons)?


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## Knight Otu (Apr 3, 2002)

That's a nice list! I wonder if Upper_Krust has already seen this thread?

I wonder if the Repose domain is the same as the Repose domain from Ravenloft 3E? Or the greater mummy template the same as the one from Relics and Rituals? (Not likely, but possible, on both counts)

What does the berserk prestige class have that the barbarian core class does not have? (I'd rather have a skald, to be honest)

What is the highest Divine Rank a deity in the book has? 20?

What are the classes and levels of Boccob?

Don't kill me for this question - but how are Challenge Ratings for Deities determined? What about Salient Abilities?

Gruumsh's home plane: IIRC this error has also been made in the MotP, where he was mentioned both in Acheron and in the Abyss.


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## Derulbaskul (Apr 3, 2002)

LordMelkor,

Egyptian pantheon:

Re-Horakhty, G, LG
Anubis, L, LN
Apep, D, NE
Bast, L. CG
Bes, L, CN
Hathor, L, NG
Imhotep, D, NG
Isis, G, NG
Nephthys, I, CG
Osiris, G, LG 
Ptah, I, LN
Set, G, CE (yep, rather than LE)
Sobek, D, LE (instead of Sebek)
Thoth, I, N

Norse pantheon:

Odin, G, NG
Aegir
Balder
Forseti
Frey
Freya
Frigga
Heimdall
Hel
Hermod
Loki
Njord
Odur
Sif
Skadi
Surtur
Thor
Thrym
Tyr
Uller

Knight Otu,

Pantheon heads have a divine rank of 19; I couldn't find any with a divine rank of 20. The highest ability score I've found is Thor's strength: 92! By comparison, Kord and Hercules have a Str of 55.

Boccob is also a Wiz20/Clr20 but with a divine rank of 17 and 820 hp.

The Repose domain differs to that in Ravenloft and the Greater Mummy template differs to R&R.

Challenge Ratings aren't listed.

I'll quote the first paragraph about salient divine abilities:

_"A salient divine ability is like a feat- it gives the deity a new capability or improves one that the deity already has. As noted earlier, a deity has one salient divine ability for each divine rank the deity has, plus additional salient divine abilities reflecting its status: demigods receive one bonus ability, lesser deities receive two bonus abilities, intermediate deities receive three and greater deities receive five."_ 

The berserk prestige class allows "battle fury" instead of rage (basically, improved rage with the drawback that you may accidentally attack a friend or non-combatant), beast shape into your totem animal, a movement bonus and damage reduction. It's OK.

Cheers
NPP


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## LoneWolf23 (Apr 3, 2002)

Derulbaskul said:
			
		

> *However, Gruumsh's home plane is listed as Acheron? Huh? Someone forgot to read the alignment change for 3E....
> *




Actually, it looks more like someone forgot to read Manual of the Planes:

from the description of Nishrek, the orc cube of Archeron, in Manual of the Plane:


> *Nishrek:* This metalic cube houses the orc pantheon, the head of which is Gruumsh, the one-eyed deity of the orcs.  The mildly law-aligned trait is negated on Nishrek,  Like Clangor [home of the goblinoid pantheon], Nishrek is heavily carved and tunneled and houses great legions of orc troops.
> 
> Unlike on Clangor, the barracks are chaotically arranged, and the tunnels meander.  Where Clangor seems gridlike from a distance, Nishrek is swirled with winding streets and trenches, and blotchy with haphazardly arranged strongholds.




Gruumsh's realm in 3E is pretty much the ultimate act of rebellion against Law: a Chaotic Realm within a Lawful plane...

Oh, and BTW, Lord Melkor... I think they gave Zeus a Chaotic Alignment because in Greek myth, he had a tendancy towards pretty unlawful behavior... Namely his *ahem* "Extra-marital activities"...

Although I guess even a Lawful guy could do that...


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## Knight Otu (Apr 3, 2002)

Thank you for your answers, Derulbaskul! 



> Set, G, CE (yep, rather than LE)



Makes sense for me.



> Pantheon heads have a divine rank of 19; I couldn't find any with a divine rank of 20. The highest ability score I've found is Thor's strength: 92! By comparison, Kord
> and Hercules have a Str of 55.



He still cannot carry a whole planet . What about Mjolnor? (sp?) - Upper_Krust suspected that it would be the most powerful weapon in the book.
Would DR 20 still be Greater God state (The Call of Chtulhu preview seems to indicate this).



> The Repose domain differs to that in Ravenloft and the Greater Mummy template differs to R&R.



The possibility existed, but it was unlikely that they would be the same.



> The Repose domain differs to that in Ravenloft and the Greater Mummy template differs to R&R.



I guess this is to stop some people from thinking about them as mere monsters to be defeated? Or do they give CR-guidelines in the second chapter? (I suppose not.)



> I'll quote the first paragraph about salient divine abilities:



Which confirms most of Upper_Krusts speculations.



> The berserk prestige class allows "battle fury" instead of rage (basically, improved rage with the drawback that you may accidentally attack a friend or non-combatant),
> beast shape into your totem animal, a movement bonus and damage reduction. It's OK.



Sounds OK. I guess Beast Shape is similar to the druidic wildshape?

Does the book include some bits about Epic Character progression? (IIRC, it was said that there would be a little bit of "overlap")


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## Desdichado (Apr 3, 2002)

So, is the book available then?  I'll call the WotC retail outlet down the street as soon as they open...


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## LordMelkor{Talos} (Apr 3, 2002)

> :
> 
> Does the book include some bits about Epic Character progression? (IIRC, it was said that there would be a little bit of "overlap")
> 
> ...


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## Derulbaskul (Apr 3, 2002)

Knight Otu,

You're welcome. I just typed as I read.

Holy snapping! I've just read Mjolnir at your prompting. Try this:

+5 chaotic distance ghost touch holy mighty cleaving returning thundering warhammer +109/+104/+99/+94 melee; 4d8+84/19-20/x3 damage (except that as a greater power he always does maximum damage)

I think it is the most powerful weapon in the book but I haven't looked at too many yet.

Divine ranks are as follows:

0: quasi-deity or hero deity
1-5: demigods
6-10: lesser deities
11-15: intermediate deities
16-20: greater deities
21+: off the scale, "beyond the ken of mortals and care nothing for worshipers"

Beast shape is much like wild shape, albeit more limited.

No guidance is given for CR.

There is a sidebar on epic levels on page 26 which mentions improved BABs and saving throws and the section on divine abilities mentions that some of these are combinations of two or more Epic feats. It also mentions that it may be appropriate to some campaigns to alter the levels shown in DDG after the ELH is released as the deities listed in DDG only have a maximum of 20 levels per class.

Cheers
NPP


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## Derulbaskul (Apr 3, 2002)

*Re: Re: Deities & Demigods*

(quote)
Actually, it looks more like someone forgot to read Manual of the Planes: 

from the description of Nishrek, the orc cube of Archeron, in Manual of the Plane: 
(unquote)

Nahhh, read that but simply don't agree that it is appropriate for Acheron, which is more lawful than evil, to house the CE orcs and the NE goblins. Hobgoblins maybe, but it's a small point.

(quote)
Gruumsh's realm in 3E is pretty much the ultimate act of rebellion against Law: a Chaotic Realm within a Lawful plane... 
(unquote)

However, this comment of yours, LoneWolf23, may have made me change my mind- thanks!

Cheers
NPP


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## LordMelkor{Talos} (Apr 3, 2002)

I assume there are no new feats that aren`t Salient Abilities?

How do Salient Abilities that improve metamagic work?

Roughly how many Salient Abilities are included, above 100 I assume?

How are Avatars treated?

How much of the deity`s description is flavor text as opposed to stats? The same amount as in FRCS? 

What are Divine Ranks for Set, Poseidon, Nerull, Osiris and Pelor?


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## Taren Nighteyes (Apr 3, 2002)

As to the surprise at Zeus's alignment being CG - it really does make sense.  He was King of the Gods, and his decisions must be obeyed.  He just may change his mind tomorrow, or just ignore the "law" for himself. (Zeus really didn't care what other gods/people did as long as you didn't make him mad - e.g. Call him a son of a goat, hurt one of his many children, tick one of the other gods off so they would complain to him and "force" him to take notice)


As for Artemis - I agree.  Her alignment is NG to women - especially young free spirited maidens, and NN or CN to men - in general.

I would have much preferred her alignment to be NN with some details of her disposition to each sex provided in her description.


Taren Nighteyes


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## Paladin (Apr 3, 2002)

Derulbaskul- 

 Where did you get the book?


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## Upper_Krust (Apr 3, 2002)

Hi all! 

Thanks to Derulbaskul for the scoop! 

A few questions:

- What Divine Rank is Tiamat?

- Are there Divine Monsters in the book (eg. Fenris Wolf)?

- What are the levels for Odin?

Other than that my main curiousity is how they deal with Uber-deities. I presume none are detailed/hinted at!? 

Thanks.


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## Upper_Krust (Apr 3, 2002)

Hello mate! 



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> *That's a nice list! I wonder if Upper_Krust has already seen this thread?*








			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> *Don't kill me for this question - but how are Challenge Ratings for Deities determined? What about Salient Abilities? *




At the moment it seems they favour 30 + Divine Rank.

I should ask Derulbaskul are there minimum levels for Divinity (eg. 30 for Hero-deity)?


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## Arani Korden (Apr 3, 2002)

I have a question - how does the faun differ from the MM satyr?


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## Arani Korden (Apr 3, 2002)

Paladin said:
			
		

> *Derulbaskul-
> 
> Where did you get the book? *




His location is listed as Singapore; they've gotten books considerably earlier than the rest of us in the past.


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## Triple H (Apr 3, 2002)

Figures. I leave the east and look what happens. Pshh


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## Paladin (Apr 3, 2002)

Arani Korden said:
			
		

> *
> 
> His location is listed as Singapore; they've gotten books considerably earlier than the rest of us in the past. *




Yeah, I saw, but most people don't put their real location, so I thought I'd check. I'm willing to bet you don't live on Naboo.


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## Arani Korden (Apr 3, 2002)

Paladin said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Yeah, I saw, but most people don't put their real location, so I thought I'd check. I'm willing to bet you don't live on Naboo.  *




I do, but my player doesn't.


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## Nightfall (Apr 3, 2002)

Well thank you Der for your VERY enlightening look at this book. Guess I'll have wander down to my gaming store and peruse it myself. In any case thank you for clearing up whether the Demon Princes WOULD be in it or not. Well Krusty mate, guess you and Scott were right, no dice here!  Oh well such is life.  So what's your bet Krusty mate, ELH or MM2? 


Btw Der, if you get a chance WHO are the new gods listed? 

Btw, think you can also describe Divine Shield a little? I'm curious about THAT salient ability. (Though I'm sure Krusty in his INFINATE deitific knowledge can probably puzzle this one out for me! )


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## Eridanis (Apr 3, 2002)

Derulbaskul said:
			
		

> *It also mentions that it may be appropriate to some campaigns to alter the levels shown in DDG after the ELH is released as the deities listed in DDG only have a maximum of 20 levels per class.
> 
> Cheers
> NPP *




This is dissapointing, but I'm not surprised. Let's hope they'll do a web enhancement for ELH that does basic stat blocks for deities from this book.

Hopefully, the web enhancement for D&Dg will have another pantheon or two... perhaps Central American or Chinese?


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## Desdichado (Apr 3, 2002)

Quick update: I just heard from my retailer that he's expecting Di&De on the 16th of this month.  Any other retailers out there care to confirm this date?  TalonComics? Anyone?


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## Nightfall (Apr 3, 2002)

Josh, 

I'm going to check my gaming store tommorrow to see if they have. (Not likely but never hurts to check) They usually get their shipments in Tuesday/Wedsenday. If they have it, I'll post it here to let you know, (mainly to give MY thoughts since I WILL thumb through it.  )


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## Information (Apr 3, 2002)

Thanks, Derulbaskul! 

Could you please tell me the following(?):

-- Zeus's, Odin's, and Re-Horakhty's Hit Points.

-- Any other monster deities?

-- When a deity is slain, is it permanent (if killed by a deity of equal or higher rank/DR, etc.)?

-- On average, what is the ratio of deities who have illustrations to those who don't?

Thanks!


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## TalonComics (Apr 3, 2002)

Ask and you shall receive... 

The official street date for regular distributors is Friday the 12th. I will have them on that day plus a couple of other Wizards' products that I need to look up.

Of course you can preorder it here for 15% off:
www.taloncomics.com/d&dcorebooks.html

~Derek


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Apr 3, 2002)

If the gods are going to have to be redone after the Epic Level book is put out why did they even bother to release it?  In a few months the stats listed in there will be useless.


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## Olive (Apr 3, 2002)

they released it because it's only going to be 'useless' if you are playing with the ELH. If you're not, then it's always going to be fien...

you don't need to use either D&Dg or the ELH...persoanlly I prefer that than feeling like i need to by both books when i'm only interested in one of them.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Apr 3, 2002)

Do level 1-20 PC's as written in the "basic" D20 system have a chance against these gods?  Nope, the only use one will find for their stats is in epic level campagns.  I'm going to be really pissed if the epic level rules have the Demon & Devil lords in it.   I hope they have them in the MM2 instead of the ELH, as so far I don't plan on buying it.


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## Upper_Krust (Apr 3, 2002)

Hi Nightfall mate! 



			
				Nightfall said:
			
		

> *Well thank you Der for your VERY enlightening look at this book.*




Hear! hear! 



			
				Nightfall said:
			
		

> *In any case thank you for clearing up whether the Demon Princes WOULD be in it or not. Well Krusty mate, guess you and Scott were right, no dice here!  Oh well such is life.*




I think Scott deserves all the credit for this one. 



			
				Nightfall said:
			
		

> *So what's your bet Krusty mate, ELH or MM2?*




Smart money would be on Monster Manual II I think!?

Firstly (as far as I know); none of the Epic Playtesters were privy to Demon Prince (_et al._) stats. 

With MMII we already know (from Jeff Grubb) that it will be concentrating on more powerful monsters - it would also retain historical significance since such beings were in the previous Monster Manuals.



			
				Nightfall said:
			
		

> *Btw, think you can also describe Divine Shield a little? I'm curious about THAT salient ability. (Though I'm sure Krusty in his INFINATE deitific knowledge can probably puzzle this one out for me! ) *




It could possibly be Damage Reduction (equal to Divine Rank?) with no Magic Weapon modifier - as with a Barbarian...but thats just a guess you understand.


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## CRGreathouse (Apr 3, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Smart money would be on Monster Manual II I think*




I agree.  If it's in an announced product, MMII will be it.  I really don't think they'd put it in the ELH; it doesn't seem to fit.  (IMO)


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## jasamcarl (Apr 3, 2002)

*Flexor....*

How immature are you? you are prone to wild hyporbole, most notably the use of the term 'useless'? Even if one is using the Epic Level Handbook, how would the gods' stats as written be rendered useless simply because they are not optomized for 'flavor' within the available rules? Their level is still high, and with a plethora of divine abilities, i start to doubt how much your players are going to begin griping about the class breakdown...i always find it difficult to tolerate people who are unable to envision real INPLAY consequences of rules and instead harp on their flavor, which mostly arises through actual player-dm interaction.

And may i ask another question? whose case are you arguing, your own? if you are not planning on purchasing the ELH, how are these stats redered worthless to you? And if the Demon Princes are destined for the ELH, presumably because they are so powerful as to require their opponents to be epic level, what need do you have for their stats? Let me guess, flavor.....if you are not going to go Epic, or as you alluded to on a prior board, you plan to 'implement' (chuckle) your own system, then the CR and EL calculations are going to be so off for you that you either 'fudge' it or go through enough alterations that the original stat-block is worthless to you.....

jeez.....


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## omedon (Apr 3, 2002)

So no Grazz't then? Shoot, I will actually have to think before picking this book up then. I want my Grazz't! 

So what is the Consesus? Will Grazz't and other demon lords show up in MM2 or will there be a 3E Fiend Folio? Maybe they will show up in the Book of Vile Darkness? Or maybe not at all?

Hmm... Maybe we should make a poll.


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## Hand of Vecna (Apr 3, 2002)

Any chance of you posting some info on Kurtulmak, the Kobold God?

*tries to find the password for his alt handle, "Klaw of Kurtulmak"*


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Apr 3, 2002)

*Re: Flexor....*



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *How immature are you? you are prone to wild hyporbole, most notably the use of the term 'useless'? Even if one is using the Epic Level Handbook, how would the gods' stats as written be rendered useless simply because they are not optomized for 'flavor' within the available rules? Their level is still high, and with a plethora of divine abilities, i start to doubt how much your players are going to begin griping about the class breakdown...i always find it difficult to tolerate people who are unable to envision real INPLAY consequences of rules and instead harp on their flavor, which mostly arises through actual player-dm interaction.
> 
> And may i ask another question? whose case are you arguing, your own? if you are not planning on purchasing the ELH, how are these stats redered worthless to you? And if the Demon Princes are destined for the ELH, presumably because they are so powerful as to require their opponents to be epic level, what need do you have for their stats? Let me guess, flavor.....if you are not going to go Epic, or as you alluded to on a prior board, you plan to 'implement' (chuckle) your own system, then the CR and EL calculations are going to be so off for you that you either 'fudge' it or go through enough alterations that the original stat-block is worthless to you.....
> 
> jeez..... *




Oh did you get upset when I stated I dislike how WOTC handles high level PC's, how it shouldn't take a 40+ dollar, new set of rules to play PC's that hit a certain level, How they shouldn't put out books that will be rendered partially obsolete when a new rulebook hits in three months?  I guess I'm bitching not really for me or my players as much as bitching about how WOTC has handled the whole release of the 3E.   So now the stats for the Epics, who you may have been using in your game via FR rules will change, the stats for the dieties will change(unless mortal spellcasters having more levels than the god of magic makes sence to you).  etc.  Are the stats for Tiamat & Bahumut different in the D&Dg different from those in the MOP?  Do I now have more out of date pages in a book I bought a few months ago?  It's more of a general bitch than a specific one. 

I suppose it won't affect my game much.  Like I said in other threads, I'll read the book when it comes out and make a final decision then, I may just keep the level advancement going up above 20th level according to the pattern in the PHB, as what I've heard about the ELH screams, "Uber-Munchkinism is now in the core rules", but I may be wrong.   The "fact" that the game will supposedly fall apart after 20th level is telling to me.   We always played fine in 1st edition at that level and nobody was screaming, "everything is out of BALANCE!!!"  Maybe my lingering dissatifaction with 3e colors my viewpoint.   Who knows?  But as long as I feel like bitching I'll bitch.


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## Information (Apr 4, 2002)

I don't see D&Dg not using the Epic Level rules as being a problem. Hasn't there already been a distinction made between characters "with the divine spark" and those of an Epic nature!? And besides, just because Boccob is "only" a 20th level wizard doesn't stop a given DM from modifying his stats. What about all of his spell-like abilities, salient abilities (of which there will be 16 if he is DR 16[?]), divine abilities, et al!?

Personally, I'll be using the deity stats "as is" along with the Epic Level rules, without modifying the former. It doesn't trouble me in the least.

If anything could have been done differently, it would have been the notion of Epic Levels. I'm not crazy about it at all. I'd have prefered simply being able to advance beyond 20th level.


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## Dream (Apr 4, 2002)

Originally posted by Flexor:


> Oh did you get upset when I stated I dislike how WOTC handles high level PC's, how it shouldn't take a 40+ dollar, new set of rules to play PC's that hit a certain level, How they shouldn't put out books that will be rendered partially obsolete when a new rulebook hits in three months? I guess I'm bitching not really for me or my players as much as bitching about how WOTC has handled the whole release of the 3E. So now the stats for the Epics, who you may have been using in your game via FR rules will change, the stats for the dieties will change(unless mortal spellcasters having more levels than the god of magic makes sence to you). etc. Are the stats for Tiamat & Bahumut different in the D&Dg different from those in the MOP? Do I now have more out of date pages in a book I bought a few months ago? It's more of a general bitch than a specific one.






  Just my own thoughts.


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## WanderingMonster (Apr 4, 2002)

If it weren't for all the uninformed ranting and wild speculation, this thread would have only been informational.  Thanks to a dedicated few, it's now "infotainment!" 

Thanks guys!


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## Dream (Apr 4, 2002)

You´re welcome!


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## jasamcarl (Apr 4, 2002)

*Ok....*

How does the release of the epic rules render the stats in D&D obsolete, by which i mean unplayable? These CAPs books were always meant to stand on their own, and since it is generally true that the same people who are play Epic characters are not the gods themselves, i don't see how IN-PLAY any of this whining matters? You are obviously one of those who becomes gigly by simply reading rules, or the rules as fiction approach which i find so abhorant...As if the printed word has its own dynamic..this is often a weakness of many dms, but...

No the dieties aren't optomized (atleast via flavor, they are perfectly consistent with the Epic Rules), the drawback to this is minor and in play, practically non-existent. Did you expect Wotc to curtail innovation and the future benefits thereof just to make the READING the rules as oppossed to PLAYING them more aesthetically pleasing?

jeez.....


----------



## CRGreathouse (Apr 4, 2002)

*Re: Re: Flexor....*



			
				Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> *How they shouldn't put out books that will be rendered partially obsolete when a new rulebook hits in three months?  I guess I'm bitching not really for me or my players as much as bitching about how WOTC has handled the whole release of the 3E.   So now the stats for the Epics, who you may have been using in your game via FR rules will change, the stats for the dieties will change(unless mortal spellcasters having more levels than the god of magic makes sence to you).  etc.  Are the stats for Tiamat & Bahumut different in the D&Dg different from those in the MOP?  Do I now have more out of date pages in a book I bought a few months ago?*




WotC chose to release books the way it does because they don't want people to feel obligated to buy all of the books.  That's why there's repeated content (e.g. MoF and T&B) and "out of date" rules (e.g. ECLs from the DMG and T&C).


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Apr 4, 2002)

Oh, how I love the flame wars that break out with the advent of a new, major release from WotC! 

Seriously, they bring life to the boards. 

Anyway, I haven't seen the book yet, but I'm all a-quiver with anticipation! By the way, who did the interior art?


----------



## Information (Apr 4, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Flexor....*



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> *
> 
> WotC chose to release books the way it does because they don't want people to feel obligated to buy all of the books.  That's why there's repeated content (e.g. MoF and T&B) and "out of date" rules (e.g. ECLs from the DMG and T&C). *




Good point. As someone has pointed out, D&Dg is perfectly compatible with Epic Level rules, as everything in both D&Dg and Epic presumes usage of the core rules system. The complaint, therefore, must be lodged at not making the deities more powerful, and not usage of the rules as such.

Producing materials that may not always square with everything that preceded or exceeded it is a D&D halmark! Look at Unearthed Arcana, with its recasting of paladins as a cavalier sub-class, and refurnishing entirely new level limits for "demi-humans"! Remember the 2nd Edition "Options" books?!

But that is not even the case here. As I've stated, the complaint seems to be that the deities simply aren't as powerful as some of us think they should be.


----------



## Heretic Apostate (Apr 4, 2002)

LordMelkor{Talos} said:
			
		

> *What!? Vecna, greatest mage of Oerth, is only 20th level wizard?! It is a shame, he should be 20th Wizard/20th Cleric/10th True Necromancer( wizard`s levels)/5th archmage, this way he would have arcane caster level of 40th, like Karsus, who also managed to become God through his magic.  Is Boccob also so weak as an arcane spellcaster? *




Which would, if I recall, require that you own Tome & Blood, Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, and _possibly_ the Epic Level Handbook.

I'm guessing they're trying to not have all this interdependence.


----------



## Heretic Apostate (Apr 4, 2002)

So, what about the salient abilities?  Are they primarily "god vs. god" stuff?  Or do they say what the gods can do for their worshipers?

And what, exactly, are the baseline abilities for gods, vis a vis their worshipers and against other gods?


----------



## jasamcarl (Apr 4, 2002)

*Information*

Have you seen example stat-blocks of dieties as presented in DaD? Class levels seem almost irrelevant, and in play as in IN THE EYES OF PLAYERS Bocoob can easily present himself as the god of magic thanks to a number of diety level benefits....they are massivly powerful as is, but of course Wizards should apologize for that not coming through to those with a shaky grasp of the rules who may spy the stat-blocks ....

Yea right....


----------



## Information (Apr 4, 2002)

*Re: Information*



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *Have you seen example stat-blocks of dieties as presented in DaD? Class levels seem almost irrelevant, and in play as in IN THE EYES OF PLAYERS Bocoob can easily present himself as the god of magic thanks to a number of diety level benefits....they are massivly powerful as is, but of course Wizards should apologize for that not coming through to those with a shaky grasp of the rules who may spy the stat-blocks ....
> 
> Yea right.... *




I'm just not ready to pass judgment to WotC's disfavor until I see Boccob's (and the other deities') abilities and powers, which I would imagine are not entirely indistinct from their area of influence. That Boccob is "the god of magic" is not determined solely by a calculation involving his levels. God only knows what other unique abilities are at his disposal.


----------



## Heretic Apostate (Apr 4, 2002)

*Re: Re: Information*



			
				Information said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I'm just not ready to pass judgment to WotC's disfavor until I see Boccob's (and the other deities') abilities and powers, which I would imagine are not entirely indistinct from their area of influence. That Boccob is "the god of magic" is not determined solely by a calculation involving his levels. God only knows what other unique abilities are at his disposal. *




Boccob is a Greater God, right?  That means DR somewhere between 16 and 20, right?

It's been posted earlier that Greaters get their DR + 5 salient abilities.  So, that's at least 21 abilities to play with, which will probably have lots of magical stuff....

Now, if I could just wait a month to get my hands on it....


----------



## Information (Apr 4, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Information*



			
				Heretic Apostate said:
			
		

> *Now, if I could just wait a month to get my hands on it.... *




Hopefully, I'll have it within two weeks...


----------



## Information (Apr 4, 2002)

Heretic Apostate said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Which would, if I recall, require that you own Tome & Blood, Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, and _possibly_ the Epic Level Handbook.
> 
> I'm guessing they're trying to not have all this interdependence. *




Precisely. Which is why I think WotC is making a wise decision in not using Epic rules in D&Dg.


----------



## Derulbaskul (Apr 4, 2002)

I bought the book in Singapore. We often get some of the "minor" products really late, the splat books for example (but who cares! ) but major releases seem to get here rather early. The shop I buy from is normally strict about release dates but there were none shown for DDG.

The rest of the questions I will try and answer tonight.

Cheers
NPP

PS: jasamcarl- are you Jason Carl, the WOTC designer?


----------



## William Ronald (Apr 4, 2002)

At the Epic Level Handbook preview at Gen Con, Andy Collins said it would work well with Deities and Demigods.  So, I have faith that it will work well.  If not, I will modify everything to suit the needs of my campaign.


----------



## Heretic Apostate (Apr 4, 2002)

Does the D&Dg provide guidelines for determining power levels?  For instance, "Death is powerful, and should be at least intermediate level."

Or are power levels determined by number of worshipers and acknowledgers?


----------



## Nightfall (Apr 4, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Hi Nightfall mate!
> 
> 
> 
> It could possibly be Damage Reduction (equal to Divine Rank?) with no Magic Weapon modifier - as with a Barbarian...but thats just a guess you understand.  *




Uhm maybe that's no what I was thinking about...It was in Dragon 294...and they talked about the DC for an ability being 37...I personally thought it might have something to do with facing off against a god, like they talked about in the Divine and the Defeated, where they had to make WILL saves or flee in terror. DIVINE AURA! That's it! Sorry Krusty mate I got confused!


But yeah it does make sense, especially historical wise AND from a purely arbitrary standpoint where they CAN implement the ELH rulings to a greater extreme here. But I also look forward to the MM2, mainly because it will include d20 monsters!  *hoping your dragon makes it in!  *


----------



## Nightfall (Apr 4, 2002)

Der, 

I wanted to ask you this earlier but my connection cut out. (Stupid phone line/AOLHELL!  ) Anyway, can you give me the listing for the NEW gods. I'm curious as to how they look and their power levels.

Btw, does the book detail just how gods interact with other divine entities, as well as planar workings for them?


----------



## Asmodeus (Apr 4, 2002)

Hey Derusbaskul, is it really out in Singapore? How much is it going for? Where did you buy your copy?

Me want!Me want!

Anyway it is ture what he says aobut release dates for WoTC products. For example Masters of Wild arrived here in Singapore at least 3 weeks after it was released while I bought my FRCS aobut a week before it was widely released in the US. If only they could be more consistent in their deliveries to this tiny city state. Come on, we have to be the biggest buyers fo their products in Asia.


----------



## FireLance (Apr 4, 2002)

Asmodeus,

Got mine at Comics Mart at Serene Centre (junction of Farrer Road and Bukit Timah Road) over lunch today.  About $50+.

Good luck!


----------



## Asmodeus (Apr 4, 2002)

Hey thnaks Firelance. Maybe drop by there tomorrow or Sat when I go for my game.


----------



## Derulbaskul (Apr 4, 2002)

Asmodeus said:
			
		

> *Hey thnaks Firelance. Maybe drop by there tomorrow or Sat when I go for my game. *




Yep, that's where I bought mine too. And don't mention how early we had the FRCS! After all, I had my copy before Sean Reynolds did!

Hey FireLance, maybe you can help answer some of the pending questions?

Cheers
NPP


----------



## Derulbaskul (Apr 4, 2002)

Nightfall,

> Btw Der, if you get a chance WHO are the new gods listed?

Taiia, a DR20 sun goddess who created everything (she seems to be the only DR20 in the book) (given as an example of a monotheistic religion).
Elishar, NG, positive energy, light, prophecy and Toldoth, NE, negative energy, darkness, destruction (given as an example of a dualistic religion).
Dennari. CG dwarf earth mother (example of a mystery cult- and pretty cool, too).

> Btw, think you can also describe Divine Shield a little? I'm curious about THAT salient ability. (Though I'm sure Krusty in his INFINITE deitific knowledge can probably puzzle this one out for me!  )

“The deity can use part of its personal energy as barrier that protects from almost any attack.” Basically, ignore/absorb 10 points of damage per DR.

Illustration,

> Could you please tell me the following(?): 

Zeus's (1,550), Odin's (980- due to 20 wizard levels), and Re-Horakhty's (1,230) Hit Points.

> Any other monster deities?

Kurtulmak, Lolth, Surtur, Thrym (assuming that you define those four as monster deities)

> When a deity is slain, is it permanent (if killed by a deity of equal or higher rank/DR, etc.)?

I haven’t read all the rules on this yet but, yes, a deity can be slain unless the DM decides otherwise. There’s even a salient ability that allows a deity to slay a lower ranked deity (and anything else, for that matter).

> On average, what is the ratio of deities who have illustrations to those who don't?

Actually, I think every single one is illustrated.

Hand of Vecna,

> Any chance of you posting some info on Kurtulmak, the Kobold God?
Ftr16/Clr7/Rog8/Sor8, DR 15, 1064 hp, Intermediate, LE

Flexor the Mighty,

> Are the stats for Tiamat & Bahumut different in the D&Dg different from those in the MOP? Do I now have more out of date pages in a book I bought a few months ago? 

Seem to be, with the exception of the addition of divine abilities.

ColonelHardisson,

> Anyway, I haven't seen the book yet, but I'm all a-quiver with anticipation! By the way, who did the interior art?

18 separate artists, with quite a few by Wayne Reynolds and Sam Wood (WAR is my fave D&D artist of all time)

Hope that brings the answers up to date.

Cheers
NPP


----------



## FireLance (Apr 4, 2002)

*Replies to Queries*



			
				Derulbaskul said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Hey FireLance, maybe you can help answer some of the pending questions?
> 
> ...




OK, will reply to as many queries as I've managed to scan in this thread.  Please pardon any inaccuracies as I've just knocked off work and I'm not at my most alert.

*Salient Abilities* 
A quick count indicates that there are exactly 100 salient abilities, and some deities have unique abilities, e.g. Longsword Finesse (does exactly what you expect it to do) for Corellon Larethian (DR19/Ftr19/Wiz20/Clr10; 993 hp).

One salient ability that improves metamagic is Automatic Metamagic which allows free use of one selected metamagic feat without increasing the spell level.  Interesting ELH reference: "Any metamagic feat selected cannot have a level requirement of 21st or higher."  Does not work with feats that depend on making the spell level higher, e.g. Heighten Spell.

Divine Shield stops 10 points of damage per DR (total, not per round), lasts 10 minutes and can be created 3+Con times per day.

Divine Splendor kills mortals who see the deity, no save.  Has prerequisites of DR16, Cha 26.  Useful for those "you cannot see my glory or you will die" types of deity.  For less lethal mind-affecting presence powers, try Divine Inspiration or Frightful Presence.

Avatars are a salient ability.  Essentially, an avatar is exactly like the deity, but with half the divine rank (and correspondingly reduced salient abilities, which the deity selects), and does not have remote sensing or remote communication powers.

*Deity Statistics* 
Kurtulmak (DR15/Ftr16/Clr8/Rog8/Sor8; 1064 hp)
Nerull (DR17/Nec10/Clr10/Rog10; 840 hp)
Odin (DR19/Ftr20/Wiz20; 980 hp)
Osiris (DR18/Clr18/Mnk12/Rgr10; 1580 hp)
Pelor (DR17/Clr20/Drd10/Ftr10; 1040 hp)
Poseidon (DR17/Bbn20/Clr20; 1220 hp)
Re-Horakhty (DR19/Pal20/Mnk20/Clr10; 1230 hp)
Set (DR16/Ftr10/Blk10/Clr10; 1200 hp)
Thor (DR18/Bbn20/Rgr20; 1260 hp)
Tiamat (DR10; 906 hp)
Zeus (DR19/Bbn20/Ftr20/Clr10; 1550 hp)

The "new gods" are:
1. Taiia, the Iconic Monotheistic Deity (DR20/Bbn20/Clr20; 1580 hp)
2a. Elishar, one half of the Iconic Dualistic Pantheon (DR15/Clr20/Ftr15; 1020 hp); and
2b. Toldoth, the other half of the Iconic Dualistic Panthoen (DR15/Rog20/Ftr15; 870 hp)
3. Dennari, the Iconic Mystery Cult Deity (DR10/Clr20; 1120 hp)

From my quick scan, there is an illustration of every deity in the book.  The deity to illustration ratio is _almost_ one to one, because Heironeous and Hextor have to share the same space (and are not very pleased about it, apparently).

*Monsters*
There are monster gods, but the only deity-level "monsters" that I can see are the Einherjar (DR0/Ftr20 or Bbn 20) from the Norse pantheon.  These are CR20. Statistics are also given for Jotunheim Frost Giants (DR0/Bbn20), Muspelheim Fire Giants (DR0/Ftr20) and Valkyries (DR0/Pal20), also from the Norse pantheon, but no CR that I can see.

Fauns are closely related to satyrs and are suspected to be satyr/human or satyr/elf crossbreeds.  Although not explicitly stated, they look to be a viable EL0 PC race.

*Deity Meta* 
Chapter One presents a few options on the question of whether deities can die and the implications of each.  Essentially, the options are: Gods can die, Gods cannot die and Gods can only die under special circumstances.  The option of some Gods can die and others cannot is left as an exercise to the reader. 

Uber-Gods are defined as those with DR21+.  Apparently, they are beyond the ken of mortals, care nothing for worshippers, do not grant spells, do not answer prayers, do not respond to queries and effectively may as well not exist at all in your campaign except maybe as a plot device to explain why all the gods in your world have been banished from the Outer Planes and are making a mess in your backyard.  

Okay, gonna go home and really digest this book now.

Edit - Just noticed Derulbaskul posted some replies before me.  Oh well.


----------



## Hand of Vecna (Apr 4, 2002)

Kurtulmak could pick Odin's pockets, and out-fight Nerull!

Kurtulmak r00ls, Nerull & Odin dr00l !!!


----------



## LordMelkor{Talos} (Apr 4, 2002)

Deity Of Death a 10th level Necromancer? I would rather they gave Gods more class levels instead of outsider`s Hit Dice.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Apr 4, 2002)

*In the name of god...*

Odin got the Gungnir suppository!

Don't worry All-Father; we have the technology to rebuild you!


----------



## Upper_Krust (Apr 4, 2002)

Hi Firelance! 

Thanks for the info.



			
				FireLance said:
			
		

> *Monsters
> There are monster gods, but the only deity-level "monsters" that I can see are the Einherjar (DR0/Ftr20 or Bbn 20) from the Norse pantheon.  These are CR20. Statistics are also given for Jotunheim Frost Giants (DR0/Bbn20), Muspelheim Fire Giants (DR0/Ftr20) and Valkyries (DR0/Pal20), also from the Norse pantheon, but no CR that I can see.*




No Fenris Wolf!? 
No Cerberus!? 
No Sliepnir!? 
No Titans!?





			
				FireLance said:
			
		

> *Uber-Gods are defined as those with DR21+.  Apparently, they are beyond the ken of mortals, care nothing for worshippers, do not grant spells, do not answer prayers, do not respond to queries and effectively may as well not exist at all in your campaign except maybe as a plot device to explain why all the gods in your world have been banished from the Outer Planes and are making a mess in your backyard.  . *




The 'cop-out' I suspected, not to worry though, soon sorted.


----------



## ruleslawyer (Apr 4, 2002)

U_K:

I take it that you plan to stat these overgods in your WPS?

BTW: Note how butch the CoC deities appear to measure up in comparison to these folks. Shub-Niggurath, for example (an Intermediate god) has about twice as many hp as even the greater deities listed in the book; the CoC deities usually have access to some seriously mighty divine abilities; AND some of the more magically-powerful deities (Nyarlathotep, for example) have essentially infinite spellcasting abilities, compared to the relatively feeble Wiz20 or Clr20 class abilities of the deities in DDG. Hmmm...


----------



## Arani Korden (Apr 4, 2002)

*Re: Replies to Queries*



			
				FireLance said:
			
		

> *
> Fauns are closely related to satyrs and are suspected to be satyr/human or satyr/elf crossbreeds.  Although not explicitly stated, they look to be a viable EL0 PC race.
> *




Thanks!  That's just what I wanted to know (and just what I was hoping to hear.)


----------



## Upper_Krust (Apr 4, 2002)

Hi ruleslawyer mate! 



			
				ruleslawyer said:
			
		

> *U_K:
> 
> I take it that you plan to stat these overgods in your WPS?*




Elder Gods: Divine Rank 21-25 (eg. GAEA)
Overgods: DR26-30 (eg. AHRIMAN)
Entities: DR31-35 (eg. ZURVAN)
Time Lords: DR36+ (DR36-40 +1 Extra Dimensional being) (eg.  )

I'll have a few examples, nothing extensive (at least one example of each status though! Probably two).



			
				ruleslawyer said:
			
		

> *BTW: Note how butch the CoC deities appear to measure up in comparison to these folks. Shub-Niggurath, for example (an Intermediate god) has about twice as many hp as even the greater deities listed in the book; the CoC deities usually have access to some seriously mighty divine abilities; AND some of the more magically-powerful deities (Nyarlathotep, for example) have essentially infinite spellcasting abilities, compared to the relatively feeble Wiz20 or Clr20 class abilities of the deities in DDG. Hmmm... *




I should have CoC D20 by Monday.

Most of the Cthulhoid types should be more powerful than Greater Deities (remember our chat with Monte Cook on the matter last week).

I would guess though, that the majority of Cthulhoid special abilities were derived from the Salient Divine Abilities in D&Dg. I would hope Boccob has something akin to the ability of Nyarhlothotep you mentioned above!?


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Apr 4, 2002)

When will the WPS be completed?


----------



## Vuron (Apr 4, 2002)

Actually I'm glad that Outer Gods like Azathoth and company appear more potent than the standard mythologies. Considering Nodens is pretty much a conglomeration of Posiedon etc and is for all intents a piker in comparison to Shubbie and Gnarleytoes the mastery of CoC gods is assured!

Furthermore don't be too concerned with changes ELH brings the DDG seem like they will continue to be significantly more potent that epic heroes even without too many changes. 

I do have some questions though did proxies ( a 2e Planescape term) get a template of any sort?

Are some of the gods in theory mortal in the aspect they can be destroyed like the norse gods at ragnarok.

Is there any talk about gods fading from existence like the dead gods of planescape?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Apr 4, 2002)

Hi Colonel Hardisson mate! 



			
				ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> *When will the WPS be completed? *




Most of the work is done; pending my getting hold of Deities & Demigods. Recently things were switched to make the work fully compatible with D&Dg so I'll need to see what they have done and no doubt tweak a number of aspects. However, it won't be released until D&Dg enters the System Reference Document (which I have been told by WotC should be fairly soon after the books release).

Hopefully mid-May to early-June.

The plan is to release the work in four .pdf sections (approximately: Players; DMs; Magic and Monsters). Hopefully these sections will be rejoined for the eventual (touch wood!  ) hardcopy!


----------



## Upper_Krust (Apr 4, 2002)

*A few more questions for our lucky Singapore friends*

Hi Derulbaskul and Firelance!  

Hope you are both enjoying the book! 

If any of you get the chance tomorrow could you answer:

- What benefits (if any?) do the gods get for being on their home plane?

- What are the Salient Divine Abilities that boost (ability scores) Hercules strength* - is this Indomitable Strength!? 

(*and I assume also Kords strength; Thors strength; Osiris constitution; Taiias constitution and Dennaris constitution!?)

- (Related to the previous question) do any of the Salient Divine Abilities require more than one slot!?

- What does (the Salient Divine Ability) Divine Blast do?

- What is Surturs Divine Rank/Levels?

Thanks in advance!


----------



## Nightfall (Apr 4, 2002)

Also can you explain these salient abilities: Divine Storm, Divine Blast, Mass Divine Blast, Divine Aura, Instant Move and Extra Domains.


----------



## War Golem (Apr 4, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *
> No Fenris Wolf!?
> No Cerberus!?
> No Sliepnir!?
> ...




Hi Upper_Krust,

I couldn't agree more!

Since WotC has left these beings out of their default "mythology" book, any chance of seeing them appear in the "Monsters" chapter of IH?

-War Golem


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Apr 4, 2002)

Derulbaskul said:
			
		

> *I bought the book in Singapore. We often get some of the "minor" products really late, the splat books for example (but who cares! ) but major releases seem to get here rather early. The shop I buy from is normally strict about release dates but there were none shown for DDG.
> 
> The rest of the questions I will try and answer tonight.
> 
> ...




Probably.  That would explain why he's in such a tiff over critisim of his super wonderful book, and the bestest, most wonderful D&D system ever.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Apr 4, 2002)

Hi Nightfall mate! 



			
				Nightfall said:
			
		

> *Also can you explain these salient abilities: Divine Storm, Divine Blast, Mass Divine Blast, Divine Aura, Instant Move and Extra Domains. *




I don't think we need to have 'Extra Domain' explained mate!


----------



## BOZ (Apr 4, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *No Fenris Wolf!?
> No Cerberus!?
> No Sliepnir!?
> No Titans!?
> ...




hey krusty,

i did a conversion of fenris and cerberus, and a few other classic DDG monsters awhile back.  when i get my copy of the new DDG (or maybe i'll wait to see if there's a web enhancement), i'll rework and repost them at the Creature Catalog.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Apr 4, 2002)

War Golem said:
			
		

> *Hi Upper_Krust,*




Hi War Golem mate! 



			
				War Golem said:
			
		

> *I couldn't agree more!
> 
> Since WotC has left these beings out of their default "mythology" book, any chance of seeing them appear in the "Monsters" chapter of IH? *




I pretty much have my Monsters chapter covered (they are all unique monsters). I will have to rebalance most of them when I see D&Dg, but that shouldn't take long.

However I was planning to perhaps do (time permitting) an addendum to D&Dg Egyptian; Greek and Norse Pantheons; including a few monsters that were never covered in 1st Ed. Deities & Demigods.

I sort of can't believe WotC would leave out the main pantheon monsters though! Perhaps we will see them in a web enhancement.


----------



## Nightfall (Apr 4, 2002)

Well maybe Krusty mate I'm confuzed about WHY a god would NEED an extra domain. I mean it makes SENSE if you want to give your followers MORE power and maybe yourself...but why need it as a Salient Ability?


----------



## Nightfall (Apr 4, 2002)

Well it's either a Web Enhancement Krusty or I'm betting MM2.


----------



## LordMelkor{Talos} (Apr 4, 2002)

I thought that Extra Domain just gives third domain to a Deity with clerical levels?


----------



## jasamcarl (Apr 4, 2002)

*Derulbaskul*

No i am not Jason carl, just a forum lurker with a modicum of intelligence, objectivity, mental discipline, pragmatism, and all those other synonyms for that 'something' which flexor seems to lack.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Apr 4, 2002)




----------



## I'm A Banana (Apr 4, 2002)

I forsee that many people will have the same complaint abot DDg that they did about the Monster Manual:

"They left out <insert favorite critter/character here>! How could they?! Those WotC hacks!"

Of course, I have faith that they crammed as much as they could into it...like, say, the Manual of the Planes, or the Monstrous Manual. They probably didn't leave them out because they didn't want to include them, but because they didn't have the *space*.

Of course, IMHO, I'd go for one less pantheon in exchange for a few more mythological critters. But no biggie. That's what the OGL is for, and that's why this book's going there lickety-split.  Then, shell out the rest of your cash on well-done 3rd party compendiums of this stuff. Take what you want, ignore the rest.

After all, just because a campaign decides to use Greek gods doesn't mean it's any less medieval than Grayhawk or Forgotten Realms. Just a different bunch of anthropomorphic arseholes lordin' it over the populace. 

I'm sorry, I hear the Athar calling.


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Apr 4, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I pretty much have my Monsters chapter covered (they are all unique monsters). I will have to rebalance most of them when I see D&Dg, but that shouldn't take long.
> 
> ...




But aren't many of these monsters already provided for in D&D? The MM gives a lot of ways to easily create such creatures. Titans are in the MM, for example, and advancing them in level is simple enough. I'm assuming that using the material in Deities & Demigods one could make some of them divine in nature, as in the myths. Fenris wolf could simply be an advanced dire wolf with maybe the Fiendish or Half-Fiend template - same goes for Cerberus, except he'd have three bite attacks. In my opinion, it's better to leave them out rather than put in what I consider redundant material - we get other kinds of material in exchange. 

Except I don't get how fauns would be different from the MM satyr.


----------



## Desdichado (Apr 4, 2002)

Have any of you lucky Singapore folks tried out the rules for creating deities?  How do they look?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Apr 5, 2002)

Hi Colonel Hardisson mate! 



			
				ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> *But aren't many of these monsters already provided for in D&D? The MM gives a lot of ways to easily create such creatures. Titans are in the MM, for example, and advancing them in level is simple enough. I'm assuming that using the material in Deities & Demigods one could make some of them divine in nature, as in the myths. Fenris wolf could simply be an advanced dire wolf with maybe the Fiendish or Half-Fiend template - same goes for Cerberus, except he'd have three bite attacks.*




I agree for the most part; but with that logic you could say why do we need anything more than a handful of monsters, why do we need ten dragon types in the Monster Manual they are all same; more or less. But the bottom line is that variety is the spice of life.



			
				ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> *In my opinion, it's better to leave them out rather than put in what I consider redundant material - we get other kinds of material in exchange. *




Obviously space was a pertinent issue (in my opinion Deities & Demigods deserves more space than _mere_ Epic Level Rules) but I doubt a handful of the most famous monsters would have taken up much space.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Apr 5, 2002)

Hi Nightfall mate! 



			
				Nightfall said:
			
		

> *Well maybe Krusty mate I'm confuzed about WHY a god would NEED an extra domain. I mean it makes SENSE if you want to give your followers MORE power and maybe yourself...but why need it as a Salient Ability? *




I think the question to ask is what effect Domains/Portfolios themselves have on Deities; rather than what the Salient Divine Ability 'Extra Domain' does.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Apr 5, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Hi Colonel Hardisson mate!
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously space was a pertinent issue (in my opinion Deities & Demigods deserves more space than mere Epic Level Rules) but I doubt a handful of the most famous monsters would have taken up much space. *




Man Krusty they should have let you write th book!


----------



## Olidammara (Apr 5, 2002)

*But more importantly...*

What does it say about Me?


----------



## jasamcarl (Apr 5, 2002)

*Well...*

I trust Wotc to have more knowledge of their business interests and the proper allocation of resources (ex: space) that would maximize the former, versus the somewhat self-interested speculation of a message board denizen...as a customer, i resign myself to to judge the utility of a book AS WRITTEN versus price as oppossed to assume knowledge i do not have of various input costs and expected revenue streams...but hey, who am i?


----------



## FireLance (Apr 5, 2002)

Hi, all.  Some more quick replies before I head off for another fun, fun day at my chosen profession.

*Divine Monsters* 
Only Sleipnir is statted, as a standard Legendary Horse out of MOTW, except that he has a fly speed of 100 ft (good), 4 hoof attacks and the Muliattack feat.

I agree that Fenris could easily be portrayed as an advanced Legendary Wolf with the half-fiend template.  With D&Dg, you could also make him a DR0 creature, which provides additional benefits.

*Deity Meta* 
Proxies are defined as mortals in whom whom the deity has invested 1 DR.  This is not lightly done as the deity actually has to give up some of his power.  The proxy becomes a DR1 demigod and has access to some of the deity's salient abilities.  No mention is made of what happens if a proxy dies, but if the proxy is aware of impending death, he can use remote communication to inform his deity, who can recall the divine power as a standard action.

There is a small discussion on what happens when a deity dies ("Immortal Turnover").  Essentially, if the divine portfolio passes on to another deity, clerics can switch patrons or gain spells from abstract principles or forces.

Deities have a home realm which they can alter to suit their tastes.  If you have the MoP, they can alter several planar traits in their home realms.  More powerful deities can enhance or impede the effectiveness of certain types of spells in their realms.  Presumably, you'd enhance your most powerful abilities and impede those you are vulnuable to.  Surtur (DR14/Rgr20/Ftr20; 1160 hp) would probably enhance fire magic in his realm and impede ice magic, for example, and the opposite would go for Thrym (DR14/Bbn20/Ftr20; 1200 hp).  That's why it's not a good idea to face off with a deity in his home realm.

*Salient Abilities* 
Divine Aura is not a salient ability (which some may have, but not others) but a divine characteristic (a property of all deities).  Within a certain radius depending on DR, a deity may inspire _daze_, _fright_ or _resolve_ in mortal beings or deities of lower rank (Will DC 10+DR+Cha avoids).  The deity can choose which effect every round as a free action.

Divine Blast is a ranged touch attack that deals DRd12+Chad12 damage.  Range 1 mile/DR, usable 3+Cha times per day.  Mass Divine Blast gives the option of using Divine Blast against up to 5 targets within DR miles, a cone up to 100 ft long/DR, a burst or spread of radius up to 50 ft/DR or a cylinder radius up to 50 ft/DR and height 10 ft/DR.  The deity may choose the exact form and dimensions.

Indomitable Strength does not add to Str, but gives a +25 bonus to oppsed Str checks, including grapple checks.  No salient ability improves ability scores.

Extra Domain does what you expect.  It still is useful for deities apart from giving them an extra domain for their worshippers because they can use the domain power once per day per DR and use the domain spells at will as spell-like abilities.

Free Move allows the deity to move up to his speed every round as a free action.

Divine Storm creates a vortex of divine force that stops missile attacks, repels creatures with a law-chaos alignment opposite the deity, and damages creatures with a good-evil alignment opposite the deity.

Off now.


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Apr 5, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *I agree for the most part; but with that logic you could say why do we need anything more than a handful of monsters, why do we need ten dragon types in the Monster Manual they are all same; more or less. But the bottom line is that variety is the spice of life. *




Actually, though, I look at it like this - the Monster Manual provided many of the various monsters from myth and legend, with their origins in mind. That is, Titans are the Greek Titans, dire animals were included because so many legends and myths involve them - such as the Norse legend of the Fenris wolf, and templates help customize them all to taste, to give any given creature a touch of the divine, infernal, or supernatural. In effect, the Monster Manual is one big appendix for Deities & Demigods. Variations on the monsters from individual myths and legends have already been worked into the system. As I've tried to show, many of the most famous critters from myth and legend are already integral elements of D&D. Sure, there are lots of dragons, but the Monster Manual provides guidelines for the creation of an almost infinite array of monsters, and gives many examples of a number of them. Giants, for example. Creatures of fairy are also well represented. 

I guess my main point is that most of the monsters from the pantheons that are in Deities & Demigods are already well-represented in D&D. I can't think of many that aren't. Maybe a bit of fluff text in Deities & Demigods explaining how these critters fit into the myths the pantheon are drawn from would've been appropriate. For example, they could've explained Fenris wolf and his place in Norse mythology, and said something like: "for Fenris Wolf's stats, use a Dire Wolf of maximum advancement, with the Half-fiend Template and DR of..." You get the idea, I'm sure.


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Apr 5, 2002)

FireLance beat me to the punch in some respects. However, do they repeat anything about legendary animals in Deities & Demigods? I'd've figured they would have stuck with Dire Animals, since they're in the Core Rules.


----------



## hong (Apr 5, 2002)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> *FireLance beat me to the punch in some respects. However, do they repeat anything about legendary animals in Deities & Demigods? I'd've figured they would have stuck with Dire Animals, since they're in the Core Rules. *




Pfaugh. There's nothing "legendary" about legendary animals. They're basically just bigger bundles of hit points compared to regular and dire animals. I'll bet that the only reason they were introduced was to give the druid a more convenient pet than a dire animal in confined surroundings -- like dungeons.


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## Desdichado (Apr 5, 2002)

I agree, legendary animals are about as boring as they get.  I also agree with the Colonel; I hope the rules allow us to make cool divine creatures out of already existing monsters.  That'd be even more fun than a barrel of mythical creatures, IMO.


----------



## Nightfall (Apr 5, 2002)

Well at least SOME of my questions were answered. Thanks Flame.  

I guess I'll have to read it myself to get it.   I'm dense that way.


----------



## Skarp Hedin (Apr 5, 2002)

*Fenrir? Call the cobbler.*

I agree that it doesn't seem too hard to stat up various creatures like Fenrir and Jormungandr and the like.  Also, I can easily see why they would leave them out -- who's going to use them?  If you're using the Norse pantheon, then odds are you're using the whole thing, with all the concepts of Ragnarok in place.. and if you're doing that, then you don't need stats for beasts like Fenrir -- I mean, sure, he's big and mean, but he chokes to death on a shoe, no one else -can- kill him, what with his demise covered by prophecy and he's imprisoned until it's time to die anyhow.

In such a situation, it seems pretty reasonable to leave out beings such as him who have no worshippers, allies (his feud with the AEsir seems personal, separate from the feud with the giants, and for good reason), or friends and have more space to put in some other stuff

And if you're -not- using a predestined Ragnarok scenario, then it shouldn't be too hard to come up with something appropriately deadly for the wolf.

However, on the other side of things.. boy, wouldn't it be cool to sit there and read about how dangerous is Loki's most popular son


----------



## Staffan (Apr 5, 2002)

*Re: Fenrir? Call the cobbler.*



			
				Skarp Hedin said:
			
		

> *However, on the other side of things.. boy, wouldn't it be cool to sit there and read about how dangerous is Loki's most popular son  *



Who, Sleipner?


----------



## BOZ (Apr 5, 2002)

baloo?


----------



## Skarp Hedin (Apr 5, 2002)

*Sleipnir*

Sleipner is indeed Odin's horse -- without going into too much detail here, Loki changed himself into a mare in order to distract a certain stallion.  So then Loki was pregnant, and the child was Sleipner.

Loki's other children, as a minor piece of interesting information are:  Sons:  Ali, Narfi, Jormungandr (the Midgard serpent), and of course Fenrir and Sleipner.  His daughter is Hel.  There's an obscure reference to him getting pregnant again by consuming a woman's heart, but there aren't many details about that.

Edit: weird, the post I replied to disappeared.


----------



## BOZ (Apr 5, 2002)

*Re: Sleipnir*



			
				Skarp Hedin said:
			
		

> *Edit: weird, the post I replied to disappeared. *




my bad.  i read Steffan's post as "Who is Sleipner?", rather than "Who, Sleipner?" as it really reads.  when i noticed that, i deleted it, hoping it hadn't been read yet.  but don't let that influence you, keep your post up, i like it.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Apr 5, 2002)

Hi Flexor mate!  



			
				Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> *Man Krusty they should have let you write the book! *




Well, theres always 4th Edition Deities & Demigods I suppose. 

We still may see some of the Monsters in a web enhancement though?


----------



## Knight Otu (Apr 5, 2002)

I finally got Dragon #294 (though I am still waiting for #293  ), and found one thing I am curious about (except for the fact that Pholtus has abilities he shouldn't have): Both Tharizdun and Rao have spell slots for spells of level 10+, while Iuz and Pholtus do not. Does D&Dg include any special rules for obtaining such spell slots? (Maybe via a salient abilizy - though those listed in the stat blocks didn't seem to fit into this)?


----------



## Daeinar (Apr 5, 2002)

Rules for spell slots above 9th level are provided in the FRCs, and will certainly be provided in detail in the ELH.


----------



## Knight Otu (Apr 5, 2002)

Daeinar said:
			
		

> *Rules for spell slots above 9th level are provided in the FRCs, and will certainly be provided in detail in the ELH. *




I know that they are detailed in the FRCS - But to my understanding the Epic Level rules will differ from the ones given in the FRCS, plus the two deities in Dragon didn't use Epic Level benefits to raise their number of spell slots (actually, they don't use any of the Epic Level benefits in the FRCS), and none of their other abilities seemed to fit for giving higher-level spell slots.
Thanks for answer though


----------



## Daeinar (Apr 5, 2002)

Well, taking a closer look at the salient abilities of the gods presented in Dragon #294, both Rao and Tharizdun have the "Divine Spellcasting"salient ability and spell slots abvove 9th level, while neither Iuz nor Pholtus have either.

How this ability works out in detail remains to be seen, but I guess it *could* have something to do with it...


----------



## Gez (Apr 5, 2002)

Just some random comments:



> However, Gruumsh's home plane is listed as Acheron? Huh? Someone forgot to read the alignment change for 3E...




Well, myself, I switch Acheron and Carceri's places among the Great Wheel, and their alignment traits. My reasonning, in short, being that a prison is a lawful thing, while a fantasy medieval battlefield is chaotic: although planning a battle and elaborating strategies and tactic seems lawful, the actual melee is totally chaotic. If its only at the XXth century that uniforms began to be in camouflage tones, it was because for a long time, it was more important to make sure you're not swinging your mace/sword/baionette/shovel at an ally that to avoid being noticed at a distance. With long-range weapons, the battlefield have much changed, but Acheron's battles are not sniping party with IFF devices.



> But I also look forward to the MM2, mainly because it will include d20 monsters!




It will ? I found it cool, in a way, as it would mean WotC is going to support the d20 license to a new level. But on the other hand, I just had the feeling, for now, that they stayed cautiously aside from using anything non-WotC made, for avoiding publishing new d20-OGL products. Or mainly *cynism mode on* because they didn't wanted to convince their die-hard WotC-only customers that other publishers make good stuff also.

However, this didn't prevented some similarities sometimes... Nighttfall, have you got Lords of Darkness ? If yes, compare the spell Lesser Shadow Tentacle with R&R's Animate Shadow... But since both are a variation of Animate Rope, and since both could very well have been inspired by a spell that existed in 2e, maybe I'm only seeing evil everywhere 

However, I doubt the Slarecian Dragon will be in. Sure, the flavor text cannot be retaken and they would have to come with a new, but still Slarecians are pretty much SL-specific. But who knows ?



> 18 separate artists, with quite a few by Wayne Reynolds and Sam Wood (WAR is my fave D&D artist of all time)



Yeah, I've noticed WAR is very liked, at least by the ENBoarder. Personally, I prefer Sam Wood, Todd Lockwood, Daren Bader, Tony DiTerlizzi, Brian Despain or Scott Fisher. Any of these names (apart Wood) ?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Apr 5, 2002)

Hi Firelance mate! 

Thanks again.



			
				FireLance said:
			
		

> *Divine Monsters
> Only Sleipnir is statted, as a standard Legendary Horse out of MOTW, except that he has a fly speed of 100 ft (good), 4 hoof attacks and the Muliattack feat.*




Well at least thats something! 



			
				FireLance said:
			
		

> *I agree that Fenris could easily be portrayed as an advanced Legendary Wolf with the half-fiend template.  With D&Dg, you could also make him a DR0 creature, which provides additional benefits.*




Presumably Legendary Wolf 14HD (Medium) (as with Freke & Gere)

If we extrapolate (elementals double HD as they increase one size category)

Garm would be Huge: perhaps 56HD
Divine Rank 0, Fire Breath* 28d10, CR24

Fenris Wolf would be Colossal: perhaps 224HD*
Divine Rank 0, Fire Breath* 112d10, Swallow Whole, Magic Immune, CR44 

*Divine Blast effect would make things more interesting.

Though these Hit Dice seem quite a lot in the face of Azathoths _mere_ 72HD!?

Perhaps Garm 42HD (CR20) and Fenris 70HD (CR27) might sit better?

Any comments?



			
				FireLance said:
			
		

> *Deity Meta
> Proxies are defined as mortals in whom whom the deity has invested 1 DR.  This is not lightly done as the deity actually has to give up some of his power.  The proxy becomes a DR1 demigod and has access to some of the deity's salient abilities.  No mention is made of what happens if a proxy dies, but if the proxy is aware of impending death, he can use remote communication to inform his deity, who can recall the divine power as a standard action.*




This is confusing. A deity has to 'deduct' (albeit temporarily) 1 Divine Rank to imbue a Proxy with that amount of power, yet much more powerful Avatars (with multiple Divine Ranks) are effectively created for free*..!?

*One Salient Divine Ability slot!?



			
				FireLance said:
			
		

> *Salient Abilities
> Divine Blast is a ranged touch attack that deals DRd12+Chad12 damage.  Range 1 mile/DR, usable 3+Cha times per day.  Mass Divine Blast gives the option of using Divine Blast against up to 5 targets within DR miles, a cone up to 100 ft long/DR, a burst or spread of radius up to 50 ft/DR or a cylinder radius up to 50 ft/DR and height 10 ft/DR.  The deity may choose the exact form and dimensions.*




I wonder is that the same premise as Squamous Blast? (If so shouldn't Azathoth deal 32d12 damage...then again I don't know the properties of Squamous Blast yet, perhaps it gains +10d12?)



			
				FireLance said:
			
		

> *Indomitable Strength does not add to Str, but gives a +25 bonus to oppsed Str checks, including grapple checks.  No salient ability improves ability scores. *




How in heck does Hercules have a Strength 55 then I wonder? Or Thor a Strength 92*!?

*Not counting his Belt I presume?

Is there some sort of automatic ability score increase per Divine Rank?

Do Zeus ability scores average in the high 30's/low 40's?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Apr 5, 2002)

Hi Gez mate! 



			
				Gez said:
			
		

> *However, I doubt the Slarecian Dragon will be in. Sure, the flavor text cannot be retaken and they would have to come with a new, but still Slarecians are pretty much SL-specific. But who knows ?*




Slarecian Dragon! What idiot came up with that idea! Waste of space if you ask me!



			
				Gez said:
			
		

> *Yeah, I've noticed WAR is very liked, at least by the ENBoarder. Personally, I prefer Sam Wood, Todd Lockwood, Daren Bader, Tony DiTerlizzi, Brian Despain or Scott Fisher. Any of these names (apart Wood) ? *




WAR is amazing! I would love to see a book of illustrations by Mr Reynolds: some old work, some new work and a detailed account of some peices in stages to show how he works.

Would anyone else go for that!?


----------



## S'mon (Apr 5, 2002)

Keeping to Norse myth, Garm should be about as tough as Tyr - they kill each other at Ragnarok - but weaker than Odin - Garm cowers when Odin rides past.  Fenrir should be a lot bigger and tougher than Garm, & capable of devouring Odin & Sleipnir with one bite.


----------



## Staffan (Apr 5, 2002)

BOZ said:
			
		

> *baloo?   *



Yes, that would be me.


----------



## S'mon (Apr 5, 2002)

By contrast, Greek legendary monsters should be much weaker than the deities, they regularly get squelched by mortal heroes and are more often pawns of the gods than Norse-style nemeses.


----------



## Knight Otu (Apr 5, 2002)

Daeinar said:
			
		

> *Well, taking a closer look at the salient abilities of the gods presented in Dragon #294, both Rao and Tharizdun have the "Divine Spellcasting"salient ability and spell slots abvove 9th level, while neither Iuz nor Pholtus have either.
> 
> How this ability works out in detail remains to be seen, but I guess it *could* have something to do with it... *




I seem to have missed this ability when I read the stat block (Maybe I need glasses?  ). But Tharizdun also has level 10+ spell slots for his wizard spells, and Divine Spellcasting does not seem to fit in this case? When I get home I'll take another deep look into the article to see if I missed more important things (And stupid me thought that I already read it in depth  ). Well, these things happen...


----------



## Vecna (Apr 5, 2002)

> *Deity Meta*
> Proxies are defined as mortals in whom whom the deity has invested 1 DR.  This is not lightly done as the deity actually has to give up some of his power.  The proxy becomes a DR1 demigod and has access to some of the deity's salient abilities.  No mention is made of what happens if a proxy dies, but if the proxy is aware of impending death, he can use remote communication to inform his deity, who can recall the divine power as a standard action.




So, Proxies can't enter Sigil, being themselves deities now...


----------



## Upper_Krust (Apr 5, 2002)

Hi Colonel Hardisson mate! 



			
				ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> *Actually, though, I look at it like this - the Monster Manual provided many of the various monsters from myth and legend, with their origins in mind. That is, Titans are the Greek Titans, dire animals were included because so many legends and myths involve them - such as the Norse legend of the Fenris wolf, and templates help customize them all to taste, to give any given creature a touch of the divine, infernal, or supernatural. In effect, the Monster Manual is one big appendix for Deities & Demigods. Variations on the monsters from individual myths and legends have already been worked into the system. As I've tried to show, many of the most famous critters from myth and legend are already integral elements of D&D. Sure, there are lots of dragons, but the Monster Manual provides guidelines for the creation of an almost infinite array of monsters, and gives many examples of a number of them. Giants, for example. Creatures of fairy are also well represented.*




One of my previous posts was in response to this point as well.



			
				ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> *I guess my main point is that most of the monsters from the pantheons that are in Deities & Demigods are already well-represented in D&D. I can't think of many that aren't. Maybe a bit of fluff text in Deities & Demigods explaining how these critters fit into the myths the pantheon are drawn from would've been appropriate. For example, they could've explained Fenris wolf and his place in Norse mythology, and said something like: "for Fenris Wolf's stats, use a Dire Wolf of maximum advancement, with the Half-fiend Template and DR of..." You get the idea, I'm sure. *




I agree they could have been easily explained.

To back up my previous attempts at a rough overview of Garm and Fenris Wolf I think you have to acknowledge two types of monsters.

Creatures like Cerberus; Garm; the Tarrasque are feared by mortals. These could probably be determined with little effort through Legendary Animal types and adding Divine Rank 0.

Whereas beings such as Fenris Wolf; Jormungandr; Typhon (Uber-monsters if you will) are feared by deities! These monsters perhaps need special attention.


----------



## Zarrock God of Evil (Apr 5, 2002)

Vecna said:
			
		

> *
> 
> So, Proxies can't enter Sigil, being themselves deities now...  *




That's not really a valid point as De&De doesn't serve to accommodate the needs of an old setting (I'm a big Planescape fan though) - also remember that proxy won't be considered a full deity - he's merely imbued with divine power that can be taken from him at will. It would be easy to go around this, though, the deity could simply reclaim his power for the duration of the proxy's stay in Sigil - which would make sense as the Lady of Pain would block all divine essence from the city (the point should be, however - what is she blocking? Just divine power in general or only true deities?)

-Zarrock


----------



## Vecna (Apr 5, 2002)

Zarrock said:
			
		

> *
> 
> That's not really a valid point as De&De doesn't serve to accommodate the needs of an old setting (I'm a big Planescape fan though) - also remember that proxy won't be considered a full deity - he's merely imbued with divine power that can be taken from him at will.
> 
> *




PS got the shaft!


----------



## BOZ (Apr 5, 2002)

Staffan said:
			
		

> *Yes, that would be me. *




long time no see!  been awhile since the TSR chat room


----------



## Daeinar (Apr 5, 2002)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> *
> But Tharizdun also has level 10+ spell slots for his wizard spells, and Divine Spellcasting does not seem to fit in this case? *




Well, but "divine" could in this case just indicate the divine quality of this ability. After All, the Powers have all sorts of abilities names "Divine ..."

And it would even fit, because Rao has
3/3/3/3/2/2/2/2 cleric spells above 9th level, 

Tharizdun only has 3/2/2/2/2 cleric spells abvove 9th, but 3/3/3/3/2/2/2/2 wizard spells above 9th, just the same Number Rao has.

Now,if you look up their stats, you will see Rao having a 44 Wis and Tharizdun a 44 Int (surpise, surprise...), but Tharizdun has only an effective Wis of 19 (or so it seems).

Whatever the case, I guess that "Divine Spellcasting" simply allows a deity to receive bonus spell slots above 9th level based on the related ability score(s).

But I'll find out sooner or later anyway...


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Apr 5, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Whereas beings such as Fenris Wolf; Jormungandr; Typhon (Uber-monsters if you will) are feared by deities! These monsters perhaps need special attention. *




Slap on the "Kaiju" template from Dragon a few issues back...


----------



## Nightfall (Apr 5, 2002)

Gez, 

Well I got this tidbit from a relible source inside the S&SS freelancers, so I'm sure that SOME of the CC creatures will make an apperance. Just how many or what is unknown. 

I do own Lords of Darkness. I dunno about similiarities...but I DO think a spell battle betwen Penumbral Lord and the Shadow Adept would pretty interesting. Course I still think the Penumbral Lord would win SINCE he's not restricted by a goddess. 

Well true, but they could just call it something OTHER than Slacerian. Course it would ruin it for the rest of us, I know BUT then again who know?


----------



## hong (Apr 5, 2002)

Vecna said:
			
		

> *
> 
> So, Proxies can't enter Sigil, being themselves deities now...  *




HAW HAW! Vecna's minions got the shaft!


----------



## The Serge (Apr 5, 2002)

I prefer the alignment given Zeus from Legends and Lore 2ed.  There he was Chaotic neutral.


----------



## Nightfall (Apr 6, 2002)

Well don't see why you CANNOT make him CN, at least your campaign.


----------



## Great Umbrage (Apr 6, 2002)

*Old Monster Mythologies and Legends and Lore cited*

I just noticed that the class levels for the demihuman and monster deities seem to match those from the 2nd Ed. Monster Mythology (Corellon Ftr19/Wiz20/Clr10) for example, and the other deities seem close to the levels in Legends and Lore.  I suppose when the Epic Level Handbook comes out, you can just substitute the class levels given in the Forgotten Realms series of deity products (Faiths and Avatars, Powers and Pantheons, Demihuman Deities).


----------



## Upper_Krust (Apr 6, 2002)

Hi Colonel Hardisson mate! 



			
				ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> *Slap on the "Kaiju" template from Dragon a few issues back... *




Won't have that much impact. From what I recall it adds CR+15.

eg. Tarrasque CR20 (I actually think its more like CR24 modified to CR22 using my 'CRs above 20' mechanic.)

apply +15 to CR24 and you get CR39, which is modified to CR29.

CR29 might challenge a single Quasi/Hero-deity on its own but it will be insignificant fodder to anything above Demigod status.

As far as I can tell WotC infer that gods equal CR30 + Divine Rank*.

*The pros (simplicity) the cons (is Zeus 70HD/DR19 equal to Odin 60HD/DR19? and how do either fare against 60th-level Epic Characters?)

So Odin is CR49. Kaiju + Divine (adding Quasi/Hero-deity Power) Tarrasque is at best CR34. Well below Odins threat range.


----------



## Nightfall (Apr 6, 2002)

Well there's already a web enhancement folks as some might know. Unforunately no divine monsters.  Still the new guy has some potential, not to mention makes for a FINE foe as far as the quasi-deity thing.


----------



## Darkness (Apr 8, 2002)

BTW, regarding deities' power to create magic items: What do they have to do to create magic items this way - e.g., just like normal only that they don't need the Feats, or...?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Apr 8, 2002)

Darkness said:
			
		

> *BTW, regarding deities' power to create magic items: What do they have to do to create magic items this way - e.g., just like normal only that they don't need the Feats, or...? *




I am curious about this myself.

Also the Sword of Kas is +6 (+14 total), are there other +6 (or better) weapons in D&Dg I wonder.


----------



## Nightfall (Apr 8, 2002)

So far I only know of ONE other +6 weapon...but it's not in D&Dmg. I think you know where though. I would imagine though perhaps the next issue of Dragon (295) will have more details and perhaps an artifact with a +6 in it. Just have to see won't we Krusty mate?


----------



## Knight Otu (Apr 8, 2002)

Daeinar said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Well, but "divine" could in this case just indicate the divine quality of this ability. After All, the Powers have all sorts of abilities names "Divine ..."
> 
> ...




Well, after rereading the article, it seems as if Arcane Mastery could be the "culprit" for Tharizduns high-level spell slots - though it could still be Divine Spellcasting.

But I guess that, here in germany, we'll rather find out later than sooner  .


----------



## Derulbaskul (Apr 8, 2002)

Knight Otu,

_Well, after rereading the article, it seems as if Arcane Mastery could be the "culprit" for Tharizduns high-level spell slots - though it could still be Divine Spellcasting. _ 

Actually, I can answer that for you now.

Here's an abbreviated version of the Divine Spellcasting divine salient ability:

The deity is an extremely accomplished spellcaster.
Prerequisite: Spellcaster level 20th.
Benefit: The diety can cast spells whose effective level is above 9th. The number of spells per day the deity can cast of each spell level above 9th depends on the deity's key ability score for spellcasting classes in which the deity has achieved 20th level, as shown on Table 2-6: Divine Spellcasting....
(snip rules for paladins etc....)
The deity also doesn't incur attacks of opporunity for casting spells when threatened.
In addition, the deity receives the benefit of the Spell Focus feat on any spell its casts.

Extract from Table 2-6: Diving Spellcasting for an ability score of 44:

3 x 10th, 3 x 11th, 3, 12th, 3 x 13th 2, x 14th, 2 x 15th, 2 x 16th,  2 x 17th

Upper Krust et al,

The rules for more powerful magic items will be in the ELH (I'm sure that will start a new round of, "How dare WOTC..." ). A deity can just create an item although it requires some rest afterwards. If the deity resides on a divinely morphic plane, the results are tripled.

Any more questions as I have just returned from a trip to Dubai and have my nose in the DDG book?

Cheers
NPP


----------



## Upper_Krust (Apr 8, 2002)

Hi Derulbaskul! 



			
				Derulbaskul said:
			
		

> *Upper Krust et al,
> 
> The rules for more powerful magic items will be in the ELH (I'm sure that will start a new round of, "How dare WOTC..." ).*








			
				Derulbaskul said:
			
		

> *A deity can just create an item although it requires some rest afterwards. If the deity resides on a divinely morphic plane, the results are tripled.*




So a +5 sword would become a +15 sword?



			
				Derulbaskul said:
			
		

> *Any more questions as I have just returned from a trip to Dubai and have my nose in the DDG book? *




- Does it explain how deities gain such high ability scores - are there Salient Divine Abilities that increase ability scores ie. Divine Blessing (Strength)?

- Is there some sort of minimum ability score - there seem to be few under 24 (except Hercules?)

- Does it explain why Mjolnir (Thors Hammer) deals 4d8 base damage? (I assume because of its weight).

- What do Divine Weapon Focus and Divine Weapon Specialisation do exactly (do they stack with feats).

- What are Odin and Zeus ability scores?

- Is there an automatic bonus to Natural Armour or Deflection for AC? (I know Deities gain a +1 'Divine' bonus to AC per rank - but they also seem to have Natural Armour and Deflection bonuses for some reason?)

Thanks!


----------



## Derulbaskul (Apr 8, 2002)

Hi Upper Krust,


> So a +5 sword would become a +15 sword? 

Sorry, that wasn't a very clear posting from me. This refers to the quantity of objects created.

> Does it explain how deities gain such high ability scores - are there Salient Divine Abilities that increase ability scores ie. Divine Blessing (Strength)? 

No, this appears left out and, unfortunately, there is no index for me to to see whether I have simply failed my Reading vs Jet Lag opposed skill check.

> Is there some sort of minimum ability score - there seem to be few under 24 (except Hercules?) 

There does not seem to be any explanation of ability scores, per se, but again please note that I may have failed a Jet Lag skill check.

> Does it explain why Mjolnir (Thors Hammer) deals 4d8 base damage? (I assume because of its weight). 

Yes, it weights two tons and there is a note that Thor's belt gives him the necessary Str to wield it (and thus the Str score of 92 is explained). As for damage, it simply states in the paragraph describing the weapon that it does 4d8 damage. Hmmm, weighs two tons... I think some physicists are going to look at that and come up with a different base damage figure. 

> What do Divine Weapon Focus and Divine Weapon Specialisation do exactly (do they stack with feats). 

Divine Weapon Focus: +4 on attacks, stacks with Weapon Focus
Divine Weapon Specialisation: +Divine Rank on damage, stacks with Weapon Specialisation and Divine Weapon Mastery
Divine Weapon Mastery: the deity gains Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialisation and Improved Critical with any simple or martial weapons (prerequisites: Fighter level 20th, War domain)

> What are Odin and Zeus ability scores? 

Odin:
Str 32, Dex 28, Con 29, Int 44, Wis 30, Cha 29

Zeus (this guy is really tough):
Str 51, Dex 30, Con 34, Int 28, Wis 28, Cha 28
50 character levels: Bbn20/Ftr20/Clr10
Divine rank 19
1550 hit points

> Is there an automatic bonus to Natural Armour or Deflection for AC? (I know Deities gain a +1 'Divine' bonus to AC per rank - but they also seem to have Natural Armour and Deflection bonuses for some reason?) 

Yes, here's the whole paragraph:

(quote)
A tangible field of divine energy encompasses and suffuses a deity's body, granting it a divine AC bonus equal to its divine rank. This bonus stacks with all other AC bonuses and is effective against touch attacks and incorporeal touch attacks.
Most deities (those with 20 outsider HD) have a natural armour bonus of their divine rank +13. All deities also haev a deflection bonus to their AC equal to their Cha bonus, if any.
(unquote)

> Thanks!
You're welcome.

Cheers
NPP


----------



## Upper_Krust (Apr 8, 2002)

Thanks again Derulbaskul! 

I won't ask anymore questions - I want to leave some surprises. 

However, one thing is puzzling me:

From what I have been told Hercules deals 1d10 + 51 damage and Kord 2d6 + 54 damage, correct!?

Now they both have strength 55 which means +22 damage (+33 used two-handed); Weapon Specialisation (+2)

So far +35

For Kord we add +5 (weapon enhancement bonus) and +14 (Divine Weapon Specialisation) to get +54.

For Hercules if we add +5* (weapon) and +5 (Divine Weapon Spec) we only get +45.

*I am not even sure Hercules gains a weapon enhancement bonus.

The only thing I can think of is that Hercules has a Feat/Ability that allows him to deliver x2 strength bonus using a two-handed weapon* (I seem to recall a similar ability for the Samaurai prestige class in Sword & Fist?

*Which begs the question why doesn't Kord?


----------



## Upper_Krust (Apr 8, 2002)

Derulbaskul said:
			
		

> *(quote)
> A tangible field of divine energy encompasses and suffuses a deity's body, granting it a divine AC bonus equal to its divine rank. This bonus stacks with all other AC bonuses and is effective against touch attacks and incorporeal touch attacks.
> Most deities (those with 20 outsider HD) have a natural armour bonus of their divine rank +13. All deities also haev a deflection bonus to their AC equal to their Cha bonus, if any.
> (unquote)*




That makes sense. I have noted a lot of similarities between the base Quasi-deity/Hero-deity powers and those of a Solar.

eg.
Damage Reduction; Spell Resistance; Immunities; and now (virtually*) Natural Armour/Deflection

*Perhaps they meant the Natural Armour bonus to be +14!?


----------



## Tarril Wolfeye (Apr 8, 2002)

In that case Erbin gets his +13 natural armor bonus (DR 0 : +15 dexterity +7 deflection,  +0 divine +13 natural armor = 45) even if he is NOT an outsider with 20 HD.

Looking at Erbin's Stats I conclude:
All entities with Divine Rank have base 24 in all ability scores and get 21 points to distribute when gaining DR 0. They gain 1 ability point to distribute for each DR gained.
Combining this with ability raises for levels it fits perfectly for Erbin and Imhotep at DR 0 and 1 and for Erbin at higher DR if he doesn't use ability raises for levels.

Well, anyone in Singapore, am I right?

(Edit: Corrected because I miscalculated  )


----------



## Upper_Krust (Apr 8, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *I won't ask anymore questions - *




Shut up you fool! 

I forgot to inquire as to Lolths Divine Rank?

I would guess DR15 (but I hope DR12)?

Presumably her levels are 20HD + Cleric 16 + Wizard 14?*

*Ah the nostalgia!


----------



## Upper_Krust (Apr 8, 2002)

Hi there! 



			
				Tarril Wolfeye said:
			
		

> *In that case Erbin gets his +13 natural armor bonus (DR 0 : +15 dexterity +7 deflection,  +0 divine +13 natural armor = 45) even if he is NOT an outsider with 20 HD.*




I don't think he gains even +13 (+DR) Natural Armour without the Outsider HD!?

Hercules doesn't! From what I recall he has (+7 Dex; +5 Divine; +5 Natural; +10 Nemean Lion Pelt; +7 Deflection).



			
				Tarril Wolfeye said:
			
		

> *Looking at Erbin's Stats I conclude:
> All entities with Divine Rank have base 24 in all ability scores and get 21 points to distribute when gaining DR 0. They gain 1 ability point to distribute for each DR gained.
> Combining this with ability raises for levels it fits perfectly for Erbin and Imhotep at DR 0 and 1 and for Erbin at higher DR if he doesn't use ability raises for levels.
> 
> ...




Thats what I concluded myself* (they don't gain any ability point increases for the Outsider HD - if indeed any should have been forthcoming?

*Though Hercules...

S: 55, D: 25, C: 28, I: 20, W:21, Ch24 

...doesn't fit this template - he should have Int & Wis 24 - then again Hercules seems to have a few discrepancies (see above and one of my previous recent posts)


----------



## Tarril Wolfeye (Apr 8, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Shut up you fool!
> 
> *




I second that. Let us know more!


----------



## Upper_Krust (Apr 8, 2002)

Tarril Wolfeye said:
			
		

> *I second that. Let us know more!  *


----------



## Carnifex (Apr 8, 2002)

One of my players has just informed me she's got a copy of Deities & Demigods...


----------



## Horacio (Apr 8, 2002)

Carnifex said:
			
		

> *One of my players has just informed me she's got a copy of Deities & Demigods... *




Where? Where did she buy it!?!?


----------



## Vuron (Apr 8, 2002)

Actually if you use CoC as a reference several Demigods are in the 21-30 range of CR with only a small number of the heavies in the 30+ range.

Remember that Solars and Titans are just below godly status in many ways so making blanket assumptions as to power level seems a bit premature.

On the topic of ELH don't assume that epic feats are the equivalent of salient or divine abilities. I think it will be made clear that epic feats are just upgraded mortal feats. Don't be expecting you characters to have squamous blast anytime soon


----------



## Derulbaskul (Apr 8, 2002)

Hi Upper Krust et al,

I seem to have shaken off the last of the jet lag so here's a new round of tidbits and trivia:

CR:
(quote)
 Deities do not have Challenge Ratings. Entities of this sort are so far above the realm of mortal heroes... (snip). If you fell the need to calculate a CR for a deity, try addings its total HD to its divine rank. The result may or not be an accurate estimate of what level of characters could challenge the god... (snip).
(unquote)

Lolth:
Clr20/Ftr10/Wiz10, DR 15, 820 hp

Hercules:
I can't explain the damage bonus. My workings give a damage bonus of +45 made up of: +33 (Str bonus x 1.5) +5 (enchancement) +2 (specialisation) +5 (divine rank applied through Divine Weapon Specilisation) for a total of +45.

Ability scores:
I have checked and re-checked and I simply cannot find any mention of ability scores. I assume they use the baseline for a mortal in Forgotten Realms (just kidding- I like FR, and if you remove the novels it's a great setting) .

Alignments: Both Hercules and Kord show that their worshippers can be of CG, NG and LG alignments. I think this is simply an error as I can't imagine that WOTC would break this rule twice in one book.

Cheers
NPP


----------



## Knight Otu (Apr 8, 2002)

Thank you for clearing that up, Derulbaskul! 

But some evil influence causes me to ask more questions  - if you don't mind, of course!

Does the Madness domain use the madness score and the granted domain power from RttToEE and Defenders of the Faith, or the one from Dragon #294? And how many deities use it?

Do any deities use the new prestige classes in the book?



> Deities do not have Challenge Ratings. Entities of this sort are so far above the realm of mortal heroes... (snip). If you fell the need to calculate a CR for a deity, try
> addings its total HD to its divine rank. The result may or not be an accurate estimate of what level of characters could challenge the god... (snip).



I somewhat expected this, but I'm not sure if it is really appropriate from what we have seen.


----------



## Spatula (Apr 8, 2002)

Daeinar said:
			
		

> *Well, but "divine" could in this case just indicate the divine quality of this ability. After All, the Powers have all sorts of abilities names "Divine ..."
> 
> And it would even fit, because Rao has
> 3/3/3/3/2/2/2/2 cleric spells above 9th level,
> ...




Tharizdun has a WIS of 39, I think the 19 is due to the previous granted power of the Madness domain.  His bonus cleric spells appear work out correctly for a 39 WIS.

*



			Whatever the case, I guess that "Divine Spellcasting" simply allows a deity to receive bonus spell slots above 9th level based on the related ability score(s).
		
Click to expand...


*
To me it looks like "1+stat bonus" for the >9th level spell levels, up to the level of the stat bonus (i.e. a +17 bonus would give you 17th level spell slots).


----------



## Carnifex (Apr 8, 2002)

Horacio said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Where? Where did she buy it!?!? *




She didn't buy it. She got given a load of free stuff, including Deities & Demigods, cos some WotC guy is apparently in love with her sister


----------



## Upper_Krust (Apr 8, 2002)

Hi Vuron mate! 



			
				Vuron said:
			
		

> *Actually if you use CoC as a reference several Demigods are in the 21-30 range of CR with only a small number of the heavies in the 30+ range.*




I hoped CoC would arrive this morning (ordered on Amazon.co.uk on Thursday) but alas it wasn't to be. 

Applying my CR mod. to Azathoth and using 'base 4'

72HD + 88 (Divine Rank 20) = 160 Effective Levels = CR 50.

What HD/Levels is Cthulhu - I believe he is CR 34 (so I assume they gave him Divine Rank 4)

Nyarhlothotep I had heard was CR 45.



			
				Vuron said:
			
		

> *Remember that Solars and Titans are just below godly status in many ways so making blanket assumptions as to power level seems a bit premature.*




Looking at the Solar it is certainly not CR19!

If we apply my previously stated (CR modification) system to the Solar and use 'base 4' for Divine Ranks (where Divine Rank 0 is equal to 2 ranks) then:

22HD + 8 (Divine Rank 0) = 30 Effective Levels = CR25



			
				Vuron said:
			
		

> *On the topic of ELH don't assume that epic feats are the equivalent of salient or divine abilities. I think it will be made clear that epic feats are just upgraded mortal feats. Don't be expecting you characters to have squamous blast anytime soon  *


----------



## Horacio (Apr 8, 2002)

Carnifex said:
			
		

> *
> 
> She didn't buy it. She got given a load of free stuff, including Deities & Demigods, cos some WotC guy is apparently in love with her sister  *




What could I do to make somebody of WotC fall in love with my sister?


----------



## Spatula (Apr 8, 2002)

*No Rules for Ability Scores?*

If there are in fact no rules for how ability scores increase with divine ranks, does this mean there are no real rules for players advancing as gods?  If that is the case, I'm not sure that I'm interested in picking this up...


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## Vuron (Apr 8, 2002)

Of course there is no rules for achieving godhood I think the basic thought is that each DM should pretty much come up with how to do that individually. Similar to the design of artifacts etc.


----------



## reiella (Apr 8, 2002)

Sounds more like you're interested in ELH Spatula .

From what I understand, DDg has rules for players to ascend, but keeps godhood out of the hands of player characters (ie, it's retirement effectively).  ELH might have mechanics elsewise but who knows.

That said, I have alot harder time imagining a campaign with PCs as actual gods than I do imagining PCs beating on gods  but that's just me.


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## Nightfall (Apr 8, 2002)

Well I think there's the usual "sell your soul to the Dark Powers of the Universe deal" to get free stuff... It's probably easier.


I still don't believe that they have CRs for the "gods" for CoC and none for D&Dmg. I'd like SOME consistancy if someone doesn't mind.


----------



## Heretic Apostate (Apr 8, 2002)

(massive amounts of swearing....)

Darn.  I spent a half hour composing a series of observations and questions, and then the website ends up locking up when I try to post them.  Darn, darn, darn.....


Okay, someone who does have the book, are there strong rules as to what the different senses and magic item creations are determined for the gods?  For instance, if a god has "x" for their domains and portfolio, then they can sense "y" and create magic items like "z"?  Or are there just general guidelines?

(That's all I care to try to post, right now.  Grumble, grumble, grumble....)


----------



## AmerginLiath (Apr 9, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *What HD/Levels is Cthulhu - I believe he is CR 34 (so I assume they gave him Divine Rank 4)
> 
> Nyarhlothotep I had heard was CR 45. *




The DR isn't listed -- its just broken down by Demi/Lesser/Interm/Greater...

Cthulu is 42d12 + 378 (882 HP), listed as CR 34 (Demigod).

Nyarlathotep is 35d8 + 490 (650 HP), listed as CR 45 (Intermediate God)

The other CRs for the elder god crowd is:

Hastur = 37 (40 HD Demigod)
Shub-Niggurath = 48 (53 HD Intermediate God)
Yog-Sothoth = 45 (60 HD Intermediate God)
Chaugnar Faugn = 25 (30 HD Demigod)
Cthugha = 21 (27 HD Demigod)
Dagon =14 (18 HD Demigod)
Eihort = 27 (25 HD Demigod)
Glakki = 17 (19 HD Demigod)
Ithaqua = 25 (27 HD Demigod)
Mordiggian = 30 (30 HD Demigod)
Nodens = 38 (30 HD Lesser God)
Shudde M'ell = 21 (27 HD Demigod)
Tsathoggua = 39 (35 HD Demigod)
Yig = 27 (30 HD Demigod)

I'd say more, Krusty, but the Wizard folks would be sending the Wild Hunt after me if i did...


----------



## Upper_Krust (Apr 9, 2002)

Hi there! 



			
				AmerginLiath said:
			
		

> *The DR isn't listed -- its just broken down by Demi/Lesser/Interm/Greater...*




I know - but its possible to perceive the Divine Rank if you 'read between the lines'. 



			
				AmerginLiath said:
			
		

> *Cthulu is 42d12 + 378 (882 HP), listed as CR 34 (Demigod).*




42 + 24 (Divine Rank 4) = 66 Effective Levels = CR 36



			
				AmerginLiath said:
			
		

> *Nyarlathotep is 35d8 + 490 (650 HP), listed as CR 45 (Intermediate God)*




35 + 68 (Divine Rank 15) = 103 Effective Level = CR 43



			
				AmerginLiath said:
			
		

> *The other CRs for the elder god crowd is:
> 
> Hastur = 37 (40 HD Demigod)
> Shub-Niggurath = 48 (53 HD Intermediate God)
> ...




Hey thanks! 

Wow! 17 all in all!

It looks a bit trickier to determine their CRs - (I would only be guessing Divine Ranks before seeing the book; fingers crossed - tomorrow!?  )

Incidently, with the exception of Azathoth; Shub-Niggurath and Yog Sothoth, they haven't used any other Deities I had pencilled down as Overgods (9 in total from the Cthulhu Mythos)



			
				AmerginLiath said:
			
		

> *I'd say more, Krusty, but the Wizard folks would be sending the Wild Hunt after me if i did...  *




Funnily enough I outlined the Celtic Pantheon earlier:

- Dagda: 20HD/Barbarian 20/Druid 20/Bard 8 Divine Rank 19*

*and hes not the best in the Celtic Mythos!


----------



## Nightfall (Apr 9, 2002)

Krusty, remind me again, what's Azathoth's divine rank? Does he even HAVE a  divine rank?


----------



## Heretic Apostate (Apr 9, 2002)

What's the URL for the D&D stats for one of the Cthulhu creatures?  It's on the WOTC website, but I can't seem to find it.  Nor can I find the thread that contained the link.


----------



## Nightfall (Apr 9, 2002)

Don't worry Apost, I'll find it for myself.

[Edit: FOUND IT. Azathoth DOESN'T have a divine rank, at least not on this part. Hm. VERRRY interesting...]


----------



## Upper_Krust (Apr 9, 2002)

Hi Nightfall mate! 



			
				Nightfall said:
			
		

> *Krusty, remind me again, what's Azathoth's divine rank? Does he even HAVE a  divine rank? *




Azathoth is (technically) Divine Rank 20.*

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=cthulhu/article/ex20020321h

*Notice he has a +20 Divine bonus to AC. Damage Reduction 55/+4; Spell Resistance 52; Fire Resistance 40 etc.


----------



## Nightfall (Apr 9, 2002)

BUT there's no OFFICAL divine rank. Still I'll take your word for it.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Apr 9, 2002)

Hello again mate! 



			
				Nightfall said:
			
		

> *BUT there's no OFFICAL divine rank.*




Exactly - none of the deities in CoC blatantly utilise Divine Ranks - thats why they don't go to the trouble explaining them (DR) in the book. I talked with Monte (Cook) about this on his forum and he remarked that they integrated the rules into the descriptions so that both books could be used independantly and yet be fully compatible.



			
				Nightfall said:
			
		

> *Still I'll take your word for it. *




You can always put your trust...in Krust!


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Apr 9, 2002)

I don't what you guys consider "official," but in the CoC d20 book, page 289, under *Divine Qualities*:



> *Checks (Ex):*  A god adds a bonus on all checks. The bonus is 5 for demigods, 10 for lesser deities,  15 for intermediate deities, and 20 for greater deities.




Sounds like divine rank to me...


----------



## Heretic Apostate (Apr 9, 2002)

:snip post:

It helps to look a little further before posting, eh?


----------



## Spatula (Apr 9, 2002)

reiella said:
			
		

> *Sounds more like you're interested in ELH Spatula .
> 
> From what I understand, DDg has rules for players to ascend, but keeps godhood out of the hands of player characters (ie, it's retirement effectively).  ELH might have mechanics elsewise but who knows.
> 
> That said, I have alot harder time imagining a campaign with PCs as actual gods than I do imagining PCs beating on gods  but that's just me.*






Considering how powerful even demigods are, it doesn't seem like it's possible for player characters to beat on gods without having ELH...  unless they themselves are gods.  Since ELH and DDG are seperate rulesets that don't depend on one another, I was thinking that perhaps DDG was going to provide rules for advancing through the divine ranks... Something like the OD&D Immortals rules perhaps.  I would have found that very interesting.

Lacking rules for playing gods, what's the purpose of providing stats for them?  From what I've seen so far, anything greater than a demigod is  unbeatable by regular (i.e. non-epic) characters.


----------



## Nightfall (Apr 9, 2002)

Or at least unkillable unless your a dracolich like the infamous Creeping Doom from Wyrms in the North. 

As for PLAYING gods, my advice, don't treat them like NPCs as much as LIVING beings that generally only get involved WHEN it's important to their portfolio. Course my mate Krusty could probably offer better advice. He's the EPIC/DEITY man.  


Btw, I 85% of the time put my trust in my mate Krust!  Just save the 15% for the Scarred Lands!


----------



## Vaeron (Apr 9, 2002)

Spatula said:
			
		

> *
> Considering how powerful even demigods are, it doesn't seem like it's possible for player characters to beat on gods without having ELH...  unless they themselves are gods.  Since ELH and DDG are seperate rulesets that don't depend on one another, I was thinking that perhaps DDG was going to provide rules for advancing through the divine ranks... Something like the OD&D Immortals rules perhaps.  I would have found that very interesting.
> *




D&DG does include divine ascention information, if the Web Enchancment WoTC just released for it is any indication.  It talks about players advancing, how dieties gain divine rank, and shows a sample progression from quasi thru greater.

V


----------



## Derulbaskul (Apr 9, 2002)

Vaeron said:
			
		

> *
> D&DG does include divine ascention information, if the Web Enchancment WoTC just released for it is any indication.  It talks about players advancing, how dieties gain divine rank, and shows a sample progression from quasi thru greater.
> V *




It does have information on divine ascension, but there are no "nuts'n'bolts" in terms of ability score increases etc....

Cheers
NPP


----------



## Derulbaskul (Apr 9, 2002)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> *I don't what you guys consider "official," but in the CoC d20 book, page 289, under Divine Qualities: (snip)
> Sounds like divine rank to me... *




D&DG has the same mechanic. The deity's rank (eg, Lesser, Greater etc...) determines a general bonus on pretty much everything; the deity's divine rank gives a range of other bonuses equal to that rank.

Cheers
NPP

PS: Can I just say that a week of reading D&DG has really whetted my appetite for ELH? If ELH is done this well, I can honestly say that I am really looking forward to running EL adventures.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Apr 9, 2002)

Hi there Spatula! 



			
				Spatula said:
			
		

> *Considering how powerful even demigods are, it doesn't seem like it's possible for player characters to beat on gods without having ELH...  unless they themselves are gods.  Since ELH and DDG are seperate rulesets that don't depend on one another, I was thinking that perhaps DDG was going to provide rules for advancing through the divine ranks... Something like the OD&D Immortals rules perhaps.  I would have found that very interesting.*




I don't think roleplaying Immortals/Deities was ever the focus of Deities & Demigods.

However (not to blow my own trumpet*), that is the primary focus of the Immortals Handbook.

*Ah what the hell, why not! 



			
				Spatula said:
			
		

> *Lacking rules for playing gods, what's the purpose of providing stats for them?  From what I've seen so far, anything greater than a demigod is unbeatable by regular (i.e. non-epic) characters. *




I agree, it does seem self-defeating.


----------



## Zelda Themelin (Apr 9, 2002)

Horacio said:
			
		

> *
> 
> What could I do to make somebody of WotC fall in love with my sister?
> 
> *




What could I do to make some WotC guy to fall in love with ME. 

Just kidding. 


I am curiously waiting for Deities & Demigods, though thus far I am bit dissapointed how they handled some things.

You see, I've played a lot of epic games, and every game system I've ever played has problems with handling higher power levels. They choose easy way aka. let's keep our actualy system stats in easily handable power level (stats, levels, skills, spells etc.) and instead give them couple of special abilites to make them 'seem' powerful. Problem is, to me, they only seem powerful, but don't feel powerful. And gods are supposed to feel epic and powerful, otherwise they lack mythical qualities that drives people to worship them. Of course, this is campaing specific, but "your avarage high-level campaing" doesn't really need "power intimidating" gods, they aren't probably around that much anyway. 

This is something I find very easy to do myself. Giving couple of uber-special-ablities and other stats to pretty much about equal to higher ranks of dragons otherwise. Of course i like cool special abilites, especially one's I didn't manage to think up myself. Problem is, they aren't always cool, and sometimes, if they are only sight of unusual power, they come up as pretty lame excuse of just designers getting off easy here.

Then we get Marvel super hero.... um, epic handbook later to be used by our 'mortal' player characters, which could very well just continue rising up levels as monsters get HD, if need be. What you need those epic powers for really, are stories where epic monsters, nature's cataclysms and gods (or something akin) are involted. If you keep using just MM monster-slaying themes, you end up playing said superheroes game, with all the more easy way to slay your non-unique tarrasques. Not that there is anything wrong with that as long as it is fun. That, or then we just get book full of lame, hafl-baked feat min-max hell. This means turning meaning of 'epic' or 'high level' character into super specialists, where one has to think up character's feat-picking from start of 1st level character creation, or you never get those that 'cool stuff' at somewhere around 40th level. Problem with this is, that it makes every high level monk of certain PrC to look the same, so to say.

But please, dismiss my said thoughs on that, my true opinions never form until I actually see stuff I speak of, and even them they are likely to change many times over.

I'd wanted to see WotC make three books. One to combine epic and divane rules, with few examples, Greyhawk specific rather, since they use that world their basic one, anyway.

Then book about deities, where pantheon specific rituals, spells, monsters, artifacts and others such goodies would be found toom.

Then epic 'goods' book, with more epic characters, magic items, monsters, demon&devil lords (those not also gods), and one or two short epic adventures could be found.

Then there would still be room for Faints & Avatars, for those playing in FR, with more spesific goods for specialist priests or whatever one wants to call them, and other such setting religion stuff, besides thos divane stat.

Whatever WotC would loose money or gain it by doing it this way, I know not, but I am certain major reason they did it way they did it, is because that's the way it wa< done in prior edition.

I am really tired currenly, so forgive my writing style.


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## Zelda Themelin (Apr 9, 2002)

Derulbaskul said:
			
		

> *
> 
> It does have information on divine ascension, but there are no "nuts'n'bolts" in terms of ability score increases etc....
> 
> ...




This bothers me more than anything this far. Never mind wanting PC divane ascension into game, or stuff like that, but how I am suppesed to make god according to rules, if there are no explanation on stats. Besides, let's say, I start to build such 'template' from human or ancient red wyrm (mmh, must be one module, that made me think this), I do get pretty different stat-setup at start.

So, supposed I'd love to use rules, I'd want to know if there are any differences because of racial stat-level that effects the said divane template, or is there some minimum or maximum standard for said stats.

Also, I'd not want to see any silly system, that makes my ancient red wyrms stats worse, than they were before divane template, because that'd just be too silly and make me loose all respect for said rules (unless there was some specific reason for such case).

I really don't care if WotC has some logical system behind their divane stats or not, if they don't explain it clearly in the book somewhere, part of it's value as book for 'make your own patheon with this' goes down the drain IMO.


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## Florin (Apr 9, 2002)

Well, I don't really see increases in Divine Rank increasing your stats.  It seems to me that WotC intends Divine Rank to only really affect your divine powers.  That makes sense to me.

However, it also makes sense to have divine powers that would provide bonuses to your stats, like a Divine Strength power for gods with the Strength portfolio/domain that adds your divine rank to your strength score, or something like that.

Natural stat increases should come with level advances, and I *do* think that gods should be able to gain levels.


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## Derulbaskul (Apr 9, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Hi Nightfall mate!
> Azathoth is (technically) Divine Rank 20.*
> http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=cthulhu/article/ex20020321h
> *Notice he has a +20 Divine bonus to AC. Damage Reduction 55/+4; Spell Resistance 52; Fire Resistance 40 etc. *




Mr Krust,

You simply do not need this book.

You're perfectly correct based on:

Damage reduction= 35+DR/4, thus A is DR 20
Spell resistance= 32+DR, thus A is DR 20
Fire resistance= 20+DR, thus A is DR 20

Hmmm, methinks that A is DR 20. Doubters can cross-check against pp 26-27 in D&DG.

Cheers
NPP


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## Derulbaskul (Apr 9, 2002)

Florin said:
			
		

> *Well, I don't really see increases in Divine Rank increasing your stats.  It seems to me that WotC intends Divine Rank to only really affect your divine powers.  That makes sense to me.
> 
> However, it also makes sense to have divine powers that would provide bonuses to your stats, like a Divine Strength power for gods with the Strength portfolio/domain that adds your divine rank to your strength score, or something like that.
> 
> Natural stat increases should come with level advances, and I do think that gods should be able to gain levels.   *




There are no mechanics described for gaining stat increases. This seems to be a glaring omission or I have failed to read the book properly (and I think it's the former).

Cheers
NPP


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## Derulbaskul (Apr 9, 2002)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> *I don't what you guys consider "official," but in the CoC d20 book, page 289, under Divine Qualities:
> (snip)
> Sounds like divine rank to me... *




ColonelHardisson,
Just to clarify, the specific rules are as follows:

Always Maximise Roll: Greater deities automatically get the best result possible on any check, saving throw, attack roll or damage roll.... This quality means that greater deities never need the Maximise Spell feat, because their spells have maximum effect already.
Saving Throws: ... A deity gets its divine rank as a divine bonus on all saving throws....
Checks: A deity gets is divine rank as a divine bonus on all skill checks, ability checks, caster level checks and turning checks....

DR is also added to the DC of spell-like abilities, its (clerical) domain powers can be used a number of times a day equal to its DR, a deity's sense depend on its DR etc.... In short, it's a pretty important number in the stat block.

Cheers
NPP


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## Upper_Krust (Apr 9, 2002)

Hi Derulbaskul mate! 



			
				Derulbaskul said:
			
		

> *Mr Krust,
> 
> You simply do not need this book.*




*blushes*


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## Florin (Apr 9, 2002)

Derulbaskul said:
			
		

> *
> 
> There are no mechanics described for gaining stat increases. This seems to be a glaring omission or I have failed to read the book properly (and I think it's the former).*




Now, when you say that there are no mechanics, does that mean that there are no salient abilities or portfolio/domain abilities that augment stats?  Because I would assume that the standard 1 stat point per 4 character levels would still apply.  So, that is a mechanic that could be used.  They may not state it outright, but I don't think it's unreasonable to assume it would still be in effect.

Also, deities seem to have the ability to create magic items, including those that give stat bonuses.  So, there are ways to boost stats for deities.


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## Upper_Krust (Apr 9, 2002)

Hi Derulbaskul! 

...actually, hold on, I meant to ask something else.

You mentioned previously that Tiamat (and presumably Bahamut?) are virtually the same as their Manual of the Planes descriptions but for Divine Rank (10) - and commensurate abilities/changes. Does this mean that they still have effectively 20th-level spellcaster levels in Cleric and Sorceror *as well as* their 49 and 53 HD respectively?

eg. Tiamat is 49HD with 20th-level Cleric + 20th-level Sorceror powers!?

Domains: Evil; Law; Scalykind?

Did they change her hp to 1176?

Funnily enough her MotP stats work out at 144 + 21 + (DR)10 = total 175; whereas Bahamut works out at +33 beyond that.

Were his stats changed* in D&Dg I wonder?

*Str 53; Dex 10; Con 39; Int 35; Wis 36; Cha 35.


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## Derulbaskul (Apr 9, 2002)

Florin said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Now, when you say that there are no mechanics, does that mean that there are no salient abilities or portfolio/domain abilities that augment stats?  Because I would assume that the standard 1 stat point per 4 character levels would still apply.  So, that is a mechanic that could be used.  They may not state it outright, but I don't think it's unreasonable to assume it would still be in effect.
> 
> Also, deities seem to have the ability to create magic items, including those that give stat bonuses.  So, there are ways to boost stats for deities. *




What you say is true... in a sense.

What you have stated are the standard ways that mortals gain stat increases, an option that also available to deities. My comments were along the lines that there are no templates, progressions whatever given for stat increase for deities of differing ranks. Personally, I don't care (just make 'em up! )but my comments were in reply to several questions on this subject.

Also, there are not salient abilities that increase ability scores. Kord and Hercules, for example, have indominitable strength as a divine salient ability and this allows them to add a bonus to some Str checks, but not to the ability score itself.

I mentioned earlier that there was a chance that I had missed the section on how ability scores were tied to divine rank. I didn;t miss it; there is no such question (and now I won't have to correct my earlier posts).

Anyway, the great thing about such nuts'n'bolts "omissions" is that Upper Krust may very well find a ready market for his work!

Cheers
NPP


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## Upper_Krust (Apr 9, 2002)

Hi Florin mate! 



			
				Florin said:
			
		

> *Now, when you say that there are no mechanics, does that mean that there are no salient abilities or portfolio/domain abilities that augment stats?  Because I would assume that the standard 1 stat point per 4 character levels would still apply.  So, that is a mechanic that could be used.  They may not state it outright, but I don't think it's unreasonable to assume it would still be in effect.
> 
> Also, deities seem to have the ability to create magic items, including those that give stat bonuses.  So, there are ways to boost stats for deities. *




I was amazed there was no Salient Divine Ability to increase stats myself! A +4 bonus per SDA seems reasonable.

I'll have to give a good read to how Domains affect deities. 

eg. 
Seemingly the strength Portfolio/Domain adds little beyond Portfolio Sense; Domain Powers (derived from Clerics Domain Powers) and Spell-like Abilities (again derived from Domains).

I would have thought the Strength Portfolio would have had an impact on the deities strength...apparently not!?

Likely something I may attend to.


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## Upper_Krust (Apr 9, 2002)

Hello again! 



			
				Derulbaskul said:
			
		

> *Anyway, the great thing about such nuts'n'bolts "omissions" is that Upper Krust may very well find a ready market for his work!*




Appreciate the support mate!


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## Derulbaskul (Apr 9, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Hi Derulbaskul!
> You mentioned previously that Tiamat (and presumably Bahamut?) are virtually the same as their Manual of the Planes descriptions but for Divine Rank (10) - and commensurate abilities/changes. Does this mean that they still have effectively 20th-level spellcaster levels in Cleric and Sorceror as well as their 49 and 53 HD respectively?
> (snip)
> Domains: Evil; Law; Scalykind?
> ...




Howdy U_K,

Actually I meant to double check this for you but didn't. Here we go:

Tiamat
Lesser Deity
Divine Rank: 10
Domains: Destruction, Evil, Law, Trickery
Hit Dice: 49d12+588 (906 hp, but should be 1076)
AC: 69 (-8 size, +10 divine, +48 natural, +9 deflection)
Sor20/Clr20 (but no hit dice for these class levels)
Str 49, Dex 10, Con 35, Int 28, Wis 25, Cha 29

Bahamut
Lesser Deity
Divine Rank: 10
Domains: Air, Good, Luck, Protection
Hit Dice: 53d12+742 (1,378 hp, this is correct)
AC: 76 (-8 size, +10 divine, +52 natural, +12 deflection- superior deflection comes from higher Cha)
Sor20/Clr20 (but no hit dice for these class levels)
Str 53, Dex 10, Con 39, Int 35, Wis 36, Cha 35

Looks about right... once Tiamat's hp are corrected.

Cheers
NPP


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## Derulbaskul (Apr 9, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> (snip)
> I was amazed there was no Salient Divine Ability to increase stats myself! A +4 bonus per SDA seems reasonable.
> I'll have to give a good read to how Domains affect deities.
> eg.
> ...




Upper Krust,

Start typing....

The deity gains the granted powers of its domains so one with the Strength domain would, for example, be able to perform the feat of strength a number of times per day equal to its divine rank. However, the level at which this feat of strength is performed is the higher of its DR or Clr level.

In other words, Hercules gains a +5 bonus five times per day because he has no Clr levels but has a DR of 5.

And that's it; no other documented effect on his Str score.

Cheers
NPP


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## Upper_Krust (Apr 9, 2002)

Derulbaskul said:
			
		

> *Howdy U_K,*




Hi mate! 



			
				Derulbaskul said:
			
		

> *Bahamut
> 
> Str 53, Dex 10, Con 39, Int 35, Wis 36, Cha 35
> *




Based on that (I would presume) Bahamut looks to have *easily* the highest ability score average in the book!*


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## Belgarath (Apr 9, 2002)

*Wee Jas*

I am looking for info on the dogma of Wee Jas if they have it in the D&Dg. Specifically, I want to know what her feelings on undead are.


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## Moon_Goddess (Apr 10, 2002)

Zelda Themelin said:
			
		

> *
> 
> This bothers me more than anything this far. Never mind wanting PC divane ascension into game, or stuff like that, but how I am suppesed to make god according to rules, if there are no explanation on stats. Besides, let's say, I start to build such 'template' from human or ancient red wyrm (mmh, must be one module, that made me think this), I do get pretty different stat-setup at start.
> 
> ...





Look at it this way, the Player's Handbook has rules for creating a character.   But the Monsterous Manual doesn't have rules for creating a monster.     DaD is a "Monster" Book, it gives you the stats for the "Monsters" and tells you how to use them.    Creating new "Monsters" is not it's consern.     Maybe we need a Dragon article entiled How to create a God that can be PDFed and bootlegged all over the net.

My biggest problem with the book that I'm seeing (And don't get me wrong I'm still excited about getting my hands on it) is that is seems they made the book with the intend of making the stats for Tiamat and Bauhmet that were already printed legal characters in the book.    

We know the stats in MoTP were taken from the preview in Dragon, it has already been stated the stats in Dragon were made by the Dragon staff before they understood the 3e rules.

So the whole book is based around matching a flawed set of stats made by people who hadn't had time to fully understand the rules of the game.   Great...


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## Upper_Krust (Apr 10, 2002)

*I wonder is Erik Mona still reading this...?*

Hi Erik! 

Can you tell us is Ao detailed in Faiths & Pantheons? By detailed I mean statted/outlined like the rest of the deities!?

Thanks.

No big deal if you can't - Derulbaskul will probably have the book in a week or so anyway - lol.


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## Zelda Themelin (Apr 10, 2002)

DarwinofMind said:
			
		

> *
> Look at it this way, the Player's Handbook has rules for creating a character.   But the Monsterous Manual doesn't have rules for creating a monster.     DaD is a "Monster" Book, it gives you the stats for the "Monsters" and tells you how to use them.    Creating new "Monsters" is not it's consern.     Maybe we need a Dragon article entiled How to create a God that can be PDFed and bootlegged all over the net.
> *




I don't see it quite this way. First of all, they don't seem to have plans making such players book.

I don't like having rules as web enchantment, important rules should be printed in book.


What comes to monster manual, it certainly wasn't lacking stat rows I mentioned. In case of templates, stat bonuses and penalities were clearly presented.

As with rest of monsters, this also was the case, since monsters have races and subraces, and those said monster have stat-blocks for avarage stats. Easy enough to do simple mathematics, if you want to see how changing into another creature would affect certain creature, if stat-avarage wasn't used (like it is with simple polymorps).

Gods are not single monster type, and their stats are personified. Otherwise they would be like avarage humans 10 at each stat. Now, they are not.

This creates a problem. I can't do simple mathematics as with monster manual. I have to guess, what kind of 'template' they had in mind. And this they could have avoided so easily.

Yep, such article would be nice addition indeed.


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## Moon_Goddess (Apr 10, 2002)

Zelda Themelin said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I don't see it quite this way. First of all, they don't seem to have plans making such players book.
> 
> ...





I don't think me and you are talking on the same wavelength here.


Sure you can add a fighter level to a kobold using the monster manual, but can you make the kobold race from stratch without the dragon article?   No,   It seems pretty clear that DaD was intended to be a monster manual of sorts.    You can modify the "monsters" they present to you, but not make your own.    Each God is not handled like a character, more like a unique monster.


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## Derulbaskul (Apr 10, 2002)

*Re: I wonder is Erik Mona still reading this...?*



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *No big deal if you can't - Derulbaskul will probably have the book in a week or so anyway - lol.  *




U_K,

I certainly hope so! 

Cheers
NPP


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## Spatula (Apr 10, 2002)

DarwinofMind said:
			
		

> *Sure you can add a fighter level to a kobold using the monster manual, but can you make the kobold race from stratch without the dragon article?   No,   It seems pretty clear that DaD was intended to be a monster manual of sorts.    You can modify the "monsters" they present to you, but not make your own.    Each God is not handled like a character, more like a unique monster. *




The MM gives you just about everything you need in order to create (and advance) monsters, look in the front of the book.  There were guidelines for natural weapon damage, HD by creature size, and calculating CR that appeared in an issue of Dragon - but these things are not strictly necessary IMO (aside from the CR calculation, maybe).

I am sure that part of the intent of DDG is to have a "monster manual" of gods... But it seems to me another part is to allow DMs to flesh out their own pantheons, hence the example gods that are in the book (the monotheistic god, the duotheistic gods, the dwarven one) that are not from Greyhawk or real-worl mythologies.  Not to mention the "beggar god" presented in the web enhancement.

From what I remember of the beggar god, he starts off as a 1st level human with a divine rank of 0, and something like a 24 in each ability score.  Where did those high stats come from?  As he increases in levels and divine ranks, his ability scores increase much more than 1 per 4 character levels IIRC (I don't have the pdf handy, so correct me if I'm wrong).  What's the mechanic for this?  This is the stuff that I'm interested in.  The MM actually provides this sort of information (i.e. how to advance monsters in power).  Apparently DDG does not.  It's no big deal, but it does lower my interest in the book.


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## Heretic Apostate (Apr 10, 2002)

*Re: Replies to Queries*



			
				FireLance said:
			
		

> *
> The "new gods" are:
> 1. Taiia, the Iconic Monotheistic Deity (DR20/Bbn20/Clr20; 1580 hp)
> 2a. Elishar, one half of the Iconic Dualistic Pantheon (DR15/Clr20/Ftr15; 1020 hp); and
> ...




Can we get more stats on these gods?


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## murlynd (Apr 10, 2002)

Hey guys,

My big question on this book is whether or not the hero-gods are covered. Are they hero-gods? Or are quasi-deities the new term of choice for gods like Murlynd and Kelanen from Greyhawk?

Brian 



> "Hey Brian, keep that beholder busy for a second..."


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## Derulbaskul (Apr 10, 2002)

*Re: Re: Replies to Queries*



			
				Heretic Apostate said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Can we get more stats on these gods? *




HA,

Here you go:

Taiia
Greater Deity, Neutral
DR 20
1580 hp
AC 78
Str 43, Dex 28, Con 45, Int 29, Wis 26, Cha 27

Elishar
Intermediate Deity, Neutral Good
DR 15
1020 hp
AC 82
Str 25, Dex 25, Con 30, Int 33, Wis 43, Cha 29

Toldoth
Intermediate Deity, Neutral Evil
DR 15
870 hp
AC 89
Str 26, Dex 44, COn 27, Int 26, Wis 27, Cha 35

Dennari
Lesser Deity, Chaotic Good
DR 10
1120 hp
Str 33, Dex 25, Con 50, Int 25, Wis 29, Cha 23

Cheers
NPP


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## MythandLore (Apr 10, 2002)

You hit 200+ already, isn't it time for a new thread?


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## Zelda Themelin (Apr 10, 2002)

DarwinofMind said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> I don't think me and you are talking on the same wavelength here.
> ...




Ok, I see your point now. So, wishing for such dragon-article now. I still wait forDaD, it's not perhaps what I want, but it still might be interesting to read.


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## hong (Apr 10, 2002)

murlynd said:
			
		

> *
> My big question on this book is whether or not the hero-gods are covered. Are they hero-gods? Or are quasi-deities the new term of choice for gods like Murlynd and Kelanen from Greyhawk?
> *




Pshaw! Murlynd made a spoon, and for this he becomes a god?


Hong "what does that make Kwalish?" Ooi


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## rounser (Apr 10, 2002)

> Murlynd made a spoon, and for this he becomes a god?



I believe Roger Moore once posted this to rec.games.frp.dnd (for those unfamiliar with Murlynd, he's known for having a pair of six-shooters):


> Elminster:  Yo!  What manner of worthless being art thou?  I challenge ye to a du - -
> Murlynd: (BANG!)
> Elmunster: (gasp, choke)..wretch! Thou hast undone - -
> Murlynd (BANG! BANG!..BANG!)
> Elmonster: (silence)



That's gotta be worth _at least_ quasi-godhood, AFAIC. 


> "what does that make Kwalish?"



Er...a fan of vaguely lobster-like things?


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## Vaeron (Apr 10, 2002)

DarwinofMind said:
			
		

> *
> Sure you can add a fighter level to a kobold using the monster manual, but can you make the kobold race from stratch without the dragon article?   No,   It seems pretty clear that DaD was intended to be a monster manual of sorts.    You can modify the "monsters" they present to you, but not make your own.    Each God is not handled like a character, more like a unique monster. *




Did you see the D&DG web enhancement?  It shows diety progression at each level.  Firstly, gods get 1 point ability enhancement to one of their ability scores at each level of divine rank.  So a god with all 30's as a score could change 1 to 31 upon gaining a new divine rank.  Spell-like abilities (cast at the caster level of 10+divine rank) are, quite simply, the bonus spells granted by each of the gods granted Domains.  For example, a divine rank 1 god with Healing, Protection, and Good would have 27 spell-like abilities (the 9 per domain as per the PHB) cast as a 10th (+ divine rank, in this case 11th) level caster with a DC of 17 (+divine rank +spell level, in this case 18+spell level).

Ex: Let's make a NE divine rank 4 demi-god of Rot and Desecration with the domains of Death, Destruction and Evil.  His spell-like abilities, cast at 14th level with a DC of 21+spell level, would be: Cause Fear, Death Knell, Animate Dead, Death Ward, Slay Living, Create Undead, Destruction, Create Greater Undead, Wail of the Banshee, Inflict Light Wounds, Shatter, Contagion, Inflict Critical Wounds, Circle of Doom, Harm, Disintegrate, Earthquake, Implosion, Protection from Good, Desecrate, magic Circle against Good, Unholy Blight, Dispel Good, Create Undead, Blasphemy, Unholy Aura, Summon Monster IX.

Attack Bonus is the attack bonus of each class cumulative, plus outsider BAB if applicable, plus strength bonus, plus divine rank.  Everything is simply modified by divine rank.  Fire resistance is 20+divine rank.  Skills are normal as per class, plus ability score modifier, plus divine rank (again).  AC scales in a strange way I'm not really sure of.  SR is 32+divine rank for quasi-lesser gods, then leaps up a lot after that (not sure on the details), and Damage reduction is similarly 35+divine rank for gods of that level.

Ex: Our demi-god of Desecration might be a 20 necromancer / 10 Blackguard.  He has 28 Strength, 32 Intelligence, 40 Constitution, and 24 in everything else.  He wields a +4 unholy mace of wounding.  We're assuming he's of human origin and consequently has no outsider hit dice.  His BAB is +37/+32/+27/+22 (+10 for blackguard, +10 for necromancer, +9 for strength, +4 for divine rank, +4 for his mace).  His Fire Resistance is 24, Spell Resistance is 36, and Damage Reduction is 39/+4.  His hitpoints are 555 (10d10 + 150 (blackguard and con) 20d4 + 300 ( necromancer and con).

Additionally, dieties can see, feel and touch a divine rank number of miles, etc. etc. etc.  Compare a couple of the given examples in Dragon magazine, the sneak peak and the Web Enhancement and you'll see how easy it actually is to concoct these guys.  The minimum stat level for any god seems to be 24, and MOST quasi/demi-gods I've seen in sneak peeks and such seem to start out with one score around 40, one around 31, and one around 26 based on their specific domains.  ie, god of strength will have strength as highest, cleric gods will have wisdom and probably char highest.  It's eee-zay.  And having just whipped up this demigod of Rot and Desecration in the 20 minutes or so I spent on this, I have to say it's actually kinda fun too.  I like the lil feller already.

V


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## Darkness (Apr 10, 2002)

Zelda Themelin said:
			
		

> *You see, I've played a lot of epic games, and every game system I've ever played has problems with handling higher power levels.*



Myself, I like Exalted... 


Anyway: This thread has more than 200 posts. Please start a new one. Thanks!


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