# Why are undead immune to mind-affecting effects?



## Kerrick (Oct 25, 2008)

I started thinking about this today. It's been a rule since 1E, but back then I think the justification was something along the lines of "they have alien 
thought processes". 3E has no stated reason for it, though. Any ideas?

(The reason I ask is that I'm considering getting rid of it, but I want to see if someone can give me a good reason not to.)


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## Starbuck_II (Oct 25, 2008)

Kerrick said:


> I started thinking about this today. It's been a rule since 1E, but back then I think the justification was something along the lines of "they have alien
> thought processes". 3E has no stated reason for it, though. Any ideas?
> 
> (The reason I ask is that I'm considering getting rid of it, but I want to see if someone can give me a good reason not to.)



 Because mind affecting stuff is based on living creatures.

The ancient wizards/Clerics never researched non-living.

Really, it must have something to do with not living because constructs get it too.


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## Shin Okada (Oct 25, 2008)

Well, undead monsters having no-mind/soul was an odd concept indeed. If a ghost does not have mind and soul, what does it have? So, 4e finally removed this concept.

Maybe, if you dare to reason it in 3.5e, undead monsters do have minds but they are too different from minds of living creatures and thus cannot be affected by mind affecting effects. Or, it is something due to negative energy which is supporting their existence.


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## Angrydad (Oct 25, 2008)

I've always seen it as either they're mindless undead, zombies, skeletons, or what have you and therefore have no mind to affect, or they're intelligent undead who no longer perceive the world the same way as a living creature, so they tend to ignore anything that attempts to fool their senses and perceptions.


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## Kerrick (Oct 25, 2008)

> Really, it must have something to do with not living because constructs get it too.



Constructs don't have an Int score. No Int = mindless = immune to anything that affects the mind.



> I've always seen it as either they're mindless undead, zombies, skeletons, or what have you and therefore have no mind to affect, or they're intelligent undead who no longer perceive the world the same way as a living creature, so they tend to ignore anything that attempts to fool their senses and perceptions.



That's a good reason. Thanks.


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## Jack Simth (Oct 25, 2008)

Kerrick said:


> Constructs don't have an Int score. No Int = mindless = immune to anything that affects the mind.



The Inevitables are constructs with Int scores, as is the homunculus.  


Kerrick said:


> That's a good reason. Thanks.




I'm more inclined to go with "the brains of nonliving creatures are fundamentally different from those of living creatures - so the stuff that messes with constructs and undead are fundamentally different (e.g., Control Undead is Necromancy, while Charm Monster is Enchantment).


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## Starbuck_II (Oct 25, 2008)

Kerrick said:


> Constructs don't have an Int score. No Int = mindless = immune to anything that affects the mind.



 Vampires have immune to mind stuff and vamps have Int.


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## Arkhandus (Oct 25, 2008)

It's simply because they have no living brains, and thus no brain activity.  Can't mess with the thoughts and actions of a critter when they have no working greymatter to manipulate.  A vampire's got brains, but they're dead and inactive, so mind-affecting stuff can't do anything with the dead brain cells and their lack of activity.

Same reason why constructs are immune to mind-affecting effects; they lack any kind of living brain tissue, so no electrochemical organic processes to manipulate, let alone glands.

Undead only think and act through their soul and the manipulative forces of negative energy/necromantic magic that animates their corpse/spirit.


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## Creamsteak (Oct 25, 2008)

I always thought it came more from the notion that undead 'minds' are set in stone.

For a zombie, it's pretty simple, they're either 'commanded' by their creator, or they just have the ghoulish neverending hunger for flesh. A ghoul hungers so much that it overrides any and every magical manipulation.

A ghost or a banshee is controlled by whatever reason they 'haunt' the world. If a ghost of a woman who lost her lover and then killed herself still haunts some old graveyard, it's not like she can just be shaken off by some spell. She only exists because she wants to get revenge for her death, and so revenge is the only motivator.

However, I will say that my reasons don't make 'undead' immune to mind effecting spells (as a blanket statement in 3e). It gives me a reason to make many undead immune, just not all.


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## Shin Okada (Oct 25, 2008)

Arkhandus said:


> It's simply because they have no living brains, and thus no brain activity.  Can't mess with the thoughts and actions of a critter when they have no working greymatter to manipulate.  A vampire's got brains, but they're dead and inactive, so mind-affecting stuff can't do anything with the dead brain cells and their lack of activity.
> 
> Same reason why constructs are immune to mind-affecting effects; they lack any kind of living brain tissue, so no electrochemical organic processes to manipulate, let alone glands.
> 
> Undead only think and act through their soul and the manipulative forces of negative energy/necromantic magic that animates their corpse/spirit.




That is an interesting approach. But the problem is, Elementals are NOT immune to mind-affecting effects. Surely a large mass of Fire should not have grey tissues.


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## Starbuck_II (Oct 26, 2008)

Shin Okada said:


> That is an interesting approach. But the problem is, Elementals are NOT immune to mind-affecting effects. Surely a large mass of Fire should not have grey tissues.



 Elementals aren't completely empty though.

Otherwise a nonmagical sword wouldn't cut them.


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## Sphyre (Oct 29, 2008)

Shin Okada said:


> That is an interesting approach. But the problem is, Elementals are NOT immune to mind-affecting effects. Surely a large mass of Fire should not have grey tissues.




That's not a problem with the explanation, but rather that you're trying to apply it to something different.

I have the same view on why Undead (whether mindless or not, their brains do not dictate their actions, but rather the negative energy that empowers them to be animate - which is why necromancy spells can change the way undead act) are not affected by mind-affecting effects.

Elementals may have a different reason as to why they are affected by mind-affecting.  Just because undead have a reason they are immune to mind-affecting effects does not mean that all things that share some things in common (such as being immune to critical hits) must be within the same group and use the same reasoning.  (In otherwords, just because 2 and 9 are both positive numbers, it does not mean that they are both even numbers because there exist even positive numbers)

One hint as to why the designers made elementals not immune to mind-affecting abilities could be due to the fact that they actually have a living body, even if it's partially composed of an element.


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## Tetsubo (Oct 29, 2008)

I see the difference between a living mind and an undead mind much like the difference between a live musical performance and a recorded performance. One is just an echo of the other.


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## VanRichten (Oct 29, 2008)

Shin Okada said:


> That is an interesting approach. But the problem is, Elementals are NOT immune to mind-affecting effects. Surely a large mass of Fire should not have grey tissues.




Elementals are immune to mind affecting effects.


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## Shin Okada (Oct 29, 2008)

VanRichten said:


> Elementals are immune to mind affecting effects.




No they aren't. It is a common misunderstanding. But while they are Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, and stunning, they are not immune to mind affecting effects.


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## Kerrick (Oct 29, 2008)

Jack Simth said:


> The Inevitables are constructs with Int scores, as is the homunculus.



You are correct, sir. I forgot about them. 



> I'm more inclined to go with "the brains of nonliving creatures are fundamentally different from those of living creatures - so the stuff that messes with constructs and undead are fundamentally different (e.g., Control Undead is Necromancy, while Charm Monster is Enchantment).



With constructs, that's pretty much a given - they don't have "brains" as such; even inevitables are programmed. With most undead, you could also use that argument, though there are a couple (ghouls and vampires leap to mind) that are sufficiently close to "living" that they might conceivably be affected. Ghouls, though, are driven mostly by instinct, so we can drop them; vampires... that's a tough call. I think I'll just stick with "undead can have their mental ability scores damaged" (as it says in the MM) and leave it at that.



> That is an interesting approach. But the problem is, Elementals are NOT immune to mind-affecting effects. Surely a large mass of Fire should not have grey tissues.



They're still living beings. An elemental is a spirit taken form by accumulating a huge mass of matter - air, earth, fire, or water - around itself. It is sentient (though barely), and therefore falls under the qualifications for "able to be affected by mind-affecting spells" (said qualifications being "living" and "sentient".


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## HeinorNY (Oct 29, 2008)

Kerrick said:


> I started thinking about this today.




This is the answer.
Mindless undead do not think. They have no conscience. They don't make choices. They are deterministic creatures. They have only animation.


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## Voadam (Oct 29, 2008)

Its a poor design decision in 3e IMO, I removed the immunity for my games.

Same thing for plants like treants and constructs etc. I keep mindless as immune to mind-affecting and feel that it is a superior line to draw for the immunity. In my game you can charm the mind of a treeman but not a non-sentient fungus or an undead/construct automata.

Mind affecting spells often have a humanoid/other intelligent creature demarcation anyway with spells like 1st level charm person versus 4th level charm monster.


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## Voadam (Oct 29, 2008)

The mechanical impact on games of removing the rule is that these type of sentient creatures will be able to be affected by color sprays and charms etc. It impacts how many foes the beguiler's attack spells are effective against in particular as well as illusionist and enchanter specialist wizards/sorcerers.


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## Voadam (Oct 29, 2008)

Kerrick said:


> With constructs, that's pretty much a given - they don't have "brains" as such; even inevitables are programmed. With most undead, you could also use that argument, though there are a couple (ghouls and vampires leap to mind) that are sufficiently close to "living" that they might conceivably be affected. Ghouls, though, are driven mostly by instinct, so we can drop them; vampires... that's a tough call. I think I'll just stick with "undead can have their mental ability scores damaged" (as it says in the MM) and leave it at that.




There are more than that even sticking just to core.

Allip, insane but int 11 with a special defense against certain magics going into their minds

Bodak int 6 

Devourer int 16

Ghost, same int as the base creature

Ghoul int 13

Lacedon int 13

Ghast int 13 but "far more cunning" than their lesser ghoul kin

Lich: gains a +2 int bonus

Mohrg, int 11

Mummy int 6

Mummy lord int 8

Nightshade int 20

Nightwalker int 20

Nightwing int 18

Shadow int 6

Shadow Greater int 6

Skeleton - Mindless

Spectre int 14

Vampire int +2

Vampire spawn int 13

Wight int 11

Wraith int 14

Dreadwraith int 17

Zombies - Mindless


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## Ogrork the Mighty (Oct 29, 2008)

Probably comes from zombies/skeletons being thought of as mindless archetypes of undead, and then applied to undead in general.


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## Delta (Oct 29, 2008)

Brains, brains, use your brains to save us.


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## Urbannen (Oct 29, 2008)

There is no good reason why intelligent undead should be immune to mind-affecting effects.  They have minds.  

Unintelligent undead do not have Int scores, so they should be immune to mind-affecting effects, just like all creatures that lack Int scores.  

As far as design reasons go, I would say the designers may have wanted only negative energy effects to be able to control the actions of undead.  

I don't like it because it helps to nerf an entire school of magic.  

If I ever DM D&D again, I am going to try to houserule that intelligent undead get Iron Will as a bonus feat but may be affected by mind-affecting effects.  My inspiration would be the Kindred of the World of Darkness.  The vampires in WoD can be controlled by the domination gaze of more powerful vampires.


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## HeinorNY (Oct 30, 2008)

Urbannen said:


> If I ever DM D&D again, I am going to try to houserule that intelligent undead get Iron Will as a bonus feat but may be affected by mind-affecting effects.  My inspiration would be the Kindred of the World of Darkness.  The vampires in WoD can be controlled by the domination gaze of more powerful vampires.



The undead race in WoW also has a racial power related to strength of will.

I agree, the undead type should not have that immunity. The immunity to mind affecting abilities should be a special quality of some undeads and not a general thing.


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## calighis (Oct 30, 2008)

ainatan said:


> This is the answer.
> Mindless undead do not think. They have no conscience. They don't make choices. They are deterministic creatures. They have only animation.




So then I don't get it. What makes them different from the rest of the work force?


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## Starbuck_II (Oct 31, 2008)

calighis said:


> So then I don't get it. What makes them different from the rest of the work force?



 Work force doesn't have much animation.

They just stand there talking to the other one say, " Brains....blah, blah, blah, brains..."


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## Kerrick (Nov 1, 2008)

> There is no good reason why intelligent undead should be immune to mind-affecting effects. They have minds.
> 
> Unintelligent undead do not have Int scores, so they should be immune to mind-affecting effects, just like all creatures that lack Int scores.
> 
> ...



That makes sense too, but for some reason I just can't see undead getting hypnotized by a color spray or fascinated by a bard's song. Sure, under special circumstances, like a bard who has power over the undead, but in general? Nah. As for the vampire example you cited... that could just as well be a necromantic effect applicable to vampires only. YMMV.


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## Urbannen (Nov 2, 2008)

Kerrick said:


> That makes sense too, but for some reason I just can't see undead getting hypnotized by a color spray or fascinated by a bard's song. Sure, under special circumstances, like a bard who has power over the undead, but in general? Nah. As for the vampire example you cited... that could just as well be a necromantic effect applicable to vampires only. YMMV.




In the World of Darkness, some vampires develop a supernatural discipline called Dominate.  This discipline allows them to try to control the minds of both mortals and weaker vampires by making eye contact.  It is similar to the domination gaze power of D&D vampires.  

I would think that with their powerful senses, vampires would be vulnerable to things like color sprays and songs of fascination, which specifically attack through the senses.  I'm not sure why any creature that relies on sight is automatically immune to the blinding effects of the color spray spell.  Anne Rice's vampires were very sensitive to such things and emotional as well -it is hard to see the Vampire Lestat being immune to a bard's song.  

Intelligent undead have Int, Wis, and Cha scores; I interpret this to mean that they have thoughts and feelings.  IMO the presence of thoughts and feelings should create an inroad, however, slight, for mind-affecting effects.  A very effective bard's song should have the possibility of bringing back some of the undead's memories of life.


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## Achan hiArusa (Nov 3, 2008)

In Ravenloft intelligent undead produced a "false mind" that held the thoughts they wanted others to precieve.  Any mental effect only affected the false mind rather than the true one.


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## Set (Nov 3, 2008)

My favorite bit of wonkery was that, back in 1e, Liches were specifically said to be immune to effects that cause insanity, and then it seemed like every Lich introduced in an adventure was completely nuts...


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## Achan hiArusa (Nov 11, 2008)

Set said:


> My favorite bit of wonkery was that, back in 1e, Liches were specifically said to be immune to effects that cause insanity, and then it seemed like every Lich introduced in an adventure was completely nuts...




Their sense of their own reality is stronger than anyone elses' much like a MtA Marauder.


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## krupintupple (Nov 11, 2008)

i've always played it that they had some manner of innate 'lifesense' that seemed to foil most illusions used against them. as for enchantments, i've just reasoned that they're immune to them because that's necromancy's territory - i'm just fine with charm undead, command undead, and the like, as long as they're necromancy.

perhaps a holdover from my 2e days, but i feel that this gives necromancy something to do (if you recall, the 2e PHB had very few necromancy spells), besides twiddle its thumbs.


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## taliesin15 (Nov 12, 2008)

The majority of undead are pretty mindless (definitely zombies and skeletons). I would suggest, however, that perhaps one might modify the rule for some of the more powerful undead. Liches and vampires (the latter not under the control of another vampire) IMC usually have very high INT scores and have great willpower, and in fact, one of each are pretty much some of the most powerful and rich BBEGs around. That said, they also have pretty high saving throws, so altering the rule wouldn't effectively mean much.


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## taliesin15 (Nov 12, 2008)

Voadam mentions the immunity to mind-effecting spells for Treants, something I've never considered before. You know, that really doesn't make much sense to me. Treants I run like the Ents in LOTR, which I suspect most DMs do--as such they certainly have minds, not to mention the most elaborate language. Like Liches and Vampires (and possibly other stronger Undead with INT and will) I would more likely run them as not immune, but with high will saving throws, it would negate all but the most powerful spells.


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## Tordak (Mar 22, 2009)

Sorry, I know this thread is old, but it's something that came up in one of our games too so here's the explanation.

You musn't confuse mind and soul. The mind is made up of the physio-neurological process of the human (living) body. It is the result of electrical impulses through the nervous system and the generation of chemical substances through the body. The ability to think, imagine as well as consiousness, emotions, these are all part of what is called the mind. 

In real life, when you feel an emotion, let say fear, it's your brain that associates your body response to an external stimuly and stimulate the emission of chemicals and hormones through your body, thus giving you a sensation of stomach cramp, or making you sweat, increases your heart rate, etc. Then you consciously (more or less) associate that response with the situation to come up with an explanation for your reaction. If the stimuly is an ugly creature that surprised you, you could be startled or scare. If it's a person close to you that touched you you could think of it as love. Truth is those reaction are very similar from a physical standpoint but the mind process it differently which then result in completly different view of the external world.

A soul is a conceptual entity. It is intangible, and thought to be made of so god-like force or universal energy that fills all living creature. Some might say it comes from some other unseen and ideal world, where souls will return afterwards, while other might think of an invisible paralelle universe made up of some sort of soul energy which surronds and penetrates us!

In real life, a mind is a very real thing, although extremely complicated and far from fully understood. On the other hand, a soul is not as widely recongnize to actually exist; no one as actually seen one (no one you know), it might or might not affects things around or even our physical body, and you can explain the existence of things that live without the necessity for one. It's intangible and conceptual, it's an attempt to explain things we don't understand.

In D&D however, mind and soul or both 2 very real things. Most living creature have both. The mind allowed them to think, act and basically be living creatures; it gives them emotions, make them dream, etc. The soul is the collection of all the character experience, his identity, whether it's built with the current life or comes built-in, and leaves the character at his death. Some creature like outsiders and elementals are souls given a physical body, and the soul is destroyed when they die (the soul does not 'depart'). Nevertheless, both are an important part of every living creatures.

In the light of all this it's easy to understand undeads' immynity to mind-affecting. While some undead do still have soul (ghost, vampire, lich), the fact that they don't have physiological functions prevent them from having mind. Thus vampire could still be enraged but the absence of physiological function prevent this rage of having any actual effect on his body; he would not generate adrenaline and therefore not gain moral bonuses from _rage_ for example. Or an intelligent undead could be weary of a situation, but is body will not tremble in fear because there will be no chemical generated by is body. They can't be paralysed because the body doesn't actually moves, magic moves it, and the would not be hypnotized because while they see it's definitely not through neural response and is, I guess, attribuable to the unnatural forces at work. 

But the mind is not what control the body anymore. The body is animated through some very unnatural phenomenom, usually by magic or some divine intervention.

Sure a vampire could talk about love, but he's not feeling it in his body; his soul might be longing for it, for a lost love, but it's just an illusion, or rather, he is 'feeling' it because love is also a concept, something that our mind makes up, and I guess could be remebered by the soul.

Magic that affects the soul can unsually affect intelligent undead (trap the soul for instance), but mind affecting effect will remain useless. The same goes for plant type (no nervous system, no chemical stimulation in the usual human sense), as well as construct and ooze (which are usually mindless on top of that).

The only exception I can think of are the Green Star Adept (CAr), who as no physiology and yet is not immune to mind affecting and elementals, who are not immune to mind affecting, but then I guess you can't understand every supernatural things in term of real life explanations.


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## TheEternal (Jun 7, 2009)

I always figured that the reason some things were immune to mind affecting was either a) They had no minds (like common constructs or undead) b) They had a mind but it was set up in such a way that it made mind affecting spells impossible to cast (like the decentralized minds of sentient plants) or c) They had a normal mind, but they were powerful magic creatures that had created themselves so that they would have magic defenses set up around they're mind (like a lich or a vampire), I mean, think about it, if you were going to make your body and have all kinds of options on how you could make it uber, isn't making it immune to mind-affecting one one of the first things you would do?


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## green slime (Jun 7, 2009)

Of course undead are immune to mind-affecting effects. 

You can't poison the undead.
You can't inflict them with the flu.
You can't woo one to fall in love with you.
You can't tempt an undead with a piece of pie.
You can't procreate with undead.

Why should you be able to convince the undead to join you for tea, when all they want to do, is tear you apart, limb from limb?


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## Thanael (Jun 8, 2009)

krupintupple said:


> perhaps a holdover from my 2e days, but i feel that this gives necromancy something to do (if you recall, the 2e PHB had very few necromancy spells), besides twiddle its thumbs.




The PHB yes, but then this gave us the awesome Complete Book of Necromancers by Steven Kurtz...


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## Theroc (Jun 8, 2009)

green slime said:


> Of course undead are immune to mind-affecting effects.
> 
> 
> You can't woo one to fall in love with you.




Maybe this is just my bias from all the other vampire things[*coughUnderworldcough*] I've seen, but I've never seen a vampire act without emotion.  They almost always seem to have feelings and motivations and desires which don't necessarily revolve around rending human flesh.

I've always thought a vampire was basically like an olden leper.  Afflicted by an unfortunate circumstance and thusly shunned from society.  They still have thoughts and feelings in my opinion.

Though, to explain why they wouldn't be affected by mind-affecting things, one could simply say the feelings originate from the soul instead of the brain, and if the magic is explained as affecting the brain... well then it's useless.


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## Arkhandus (Jun 10, 2009)

D&D vampires are chaotic evil automatically.  Their entire existence is governed by bloodlust and the desire to secure more precious lifeblood for them to consume.  Any semblence of their original mind is limited and minor compared to the all-consuming desire of a D&D vampire to feed.  They charm or dominate other creatures so they can feed on them or trick others into falling into their grasp for feeding.  They cannot be manipulated by charms and such because they want nothing more than to hunt, kill, and drain every living creature with blood.  Necromancy can take hold of their souls and the negative energy that animates their body, and thereby force them to act like puppets on strings.

Treants have no humanlike nervous system, though they are capable of thought through less centralized and less-understandable means.  They are little more than trees animated and transformed by nature spirits.  Elementals are a strange case, but they, like Outsiders, are described as having only a singular existence; their mind, body, and soul are one, not distinct pieces, so supposedly they can be charmed etc. because their mind is an integrated part of their body and soul, even if their brain is an unrecognizeable mass of pebbles, flames, mist, or water.


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## Voadam (Jun 10, 2009)

Tordak said:


> Sorry, I know this thread is old, but it's something that came up in one of our games too so here's the explanation.
> 
> You musn't confuse mind and soul. The mind is made up of the physio-neurological process of the human (living) body. It is the result of electrical impulses through the nervous system and the generation of chemical substances through the body. The ability to think, imagine as well as consiousness, emotions, these are all part of what is called the mind.
> 
> ...




I was following you for a little while but this seems to get squidgy here when you define souls.

You say you must not confuse minds and souls and these are different real things in D&D. Minds are thoughts and emotions, the ability to think, feel, be conscious, and imagine. Yet you say the soul is experience and identity. These are not part of mind? A collection of experiences is not part of thinking and consciousness? Identity is not part of consciousness? Are choices made by the mind or the soul in a person?

I'm trying to think why you come up with that definition of souls for D&D cosmology.



> Some creature like outsiders and elementals are souls given a physical body, and the soul is destroyed when they die (the soul does not 'depart'). Nevertheless, both are an important part of every living creatures.
> 
> In the light of all this it's easy to understand undeads' immynity to mind-affecting. While some undead do still have soul (ghost, vampire, lich), the fact that they don't have physiological functions prevent them from having mind. Thus vampire could still be enraged but the absence of physiological function prevent this rage of having any actual effect on his body; he would not generate adrenaline and therefore not gain moral bonuses from _rage_ for example. Or an intelligent undead could be weary of a situation, but is body will not tremble in fear because there will be no chemical generated by is body. They can't be paralysed because the body doesn't actually moves, magic moves it, and the would not be hypnotized because while they see it's definitely not through neural response and is, I guess, attribuable to the unnatural forces at work.
> 
> But the mind is not what control the body anymore. The body is animated through some very unnatural phenomenom, usually by magic or some divine intervention.




A soul without a mind lacks what? The ability to think, feel, be conscious, to imagine? Are you saying intelligent undead cannot think, be conscious or imagine?

These are not mindless creatures. That is a separate quality for things like animated dead and most constructs.

If they don't have minds this leaves a gap for what fills these functions that they perform. 

Does the animating negative energy provide their consciousness, thoughts, and imagination, their mental ability scores? 

You say an elemental is a soul given a body. A non-mindless corporeal undead seems to be the same thing, a soul given a body.



> Sure a vampire could talk about love, but he's not feeling it in his body; his soul might be longing for it, for a lost love, but it's just an illusion, or rather, he is 'feeling' it because love is also a concept, something that our mind makes up, and I guess could be remebered by the soul.




Things seem to be getting mushier. Isn't longing an emotion and therefore a mind thing? What does the soul of a vampire have to do with concepts our minds make up if vampires etc. are souls without minds? Are you saying they can only remember emotions and thoughts and consciousness and not actually have them? However thoughts and consciousness seem to be a necessity for a sentient undead and emotions are typical.



> Magic that affects the soul can unsually affect intelligent undead (trap the soul for instance), but mind affecting effect will remain useless. The same goes for plant type (no nervous system, no chemical stimulation in the usual human sense), as well as construct and ooze (which are usually mindless on top of that).



I've never had Trap the Soul come up before but do undead have life forces to be affected as per the spell? What difference does it make under the spell description whether you are talking about a vampire with intelligence and a soul or an animated skeleton without either? The target is simply one creature. The effect is to put its life force and material body in a gem.

But to get back to your big point:

So Plants have minds but no nervous system or chemical stimulation in the usual human sense. They have minds but different ones and so are unaffected by mind affecting magics.

Elementals and lantern archons, in contrast, have minds despite being animate material or glowing balls of holy light. Despite having no nervous system or chemical stimulation in the human sense they can be controlled by mind affecting magic that treants can not be.

And undead have no minds (though they can do everything a mind can do) though they are not mindless. And this is because their bodies are dead and they therefore do not feel anything? Their thinking and feeling is not done by their mind but by the unnatural animating force for them.



> The only exception I can think of are the Green Star Adept (CAr), who as no physiology and yet is not immune to mind affecting and elementals, who are not immune to mind affecting, but then I guess you can't understand every supernatural things in term of real life explanations.




If there is a creature with a soul but not a mind what does it lose besides the ability to be affected by mind-affecting spells?


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## Voadam (Jun 10, 2009)

Arkhandus said:


> D&D vampires are chaotic evil automatically.  Their entire existence is governed by bloodlust and the desire to secure more precious lifeblood for them to consume.  Any semblence of their original mind is limited and minor compared to the all-consuming desire of a D&D vampire to feed.  They charm or dominate other creatures so they can feed on them or trick others into falling into their grasp for feeding.  They cannot be manipulated by charms and such because they want nothing more than to hunt, kill, and drain every living creature with blood.  Necromancy can take hold of their souls and the negative energy that animates their body, and thereby force them to act like puppets on strings.




D&D werewolves are chaotic evil automatically.  Their entire existence is governed by bloodlust and the desire to secure more precious bloody flesh for them to consume.  Any semblence of their original mind is limited and minor compared to the all-consuming desire of a D&D werewolf to feed.  They charm or dominate other creatures so they can feed on them or trick others into falling into their grasp for feeding.  They cannot be manipulated by charms and such because they want nothing more than to hunt, kill, and consume every living creature with blood.


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## Voadam (Jun 10, 2009)

Arkhandus said:


> Treants have no humanlike nervous system, though they are capable of thought through less centralized and less-understandable means.  They are little more than trees animated and transformed by nature spirits.  Elementals are a strange case, but they, like Outsiders, are described as having only a singular existence; their mind, body, and soul are one, not distinct pieces, so supposedly they can be charmed etc. because their mind is an integrated part of their body and soul, even if their brain is an unrecognizeable mass of pebbles, flames, mist, or water.




Elementals have no humanlike nervous system though minds integrated with their bodies and souls. Elementals are animated unliving material. 8HD Larged Elemental Int 6, Wis 11, Cha 11, Elder Elemental Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 11

Treants have no humanlike nervous system but are capable of thought through less centralized, less understood means. Treants are animated trees transformed by nature spirits. Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 12

I'm trying to see the difference for mind-affecting spells that says treants no and elementals yes.


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## TheHeretic (Jun 10, 2009)

Kerrick said:


> I started thinking about this today. It's been a rule since 1E, but back then I think the justification was something along the lines of "they have alien
> thought processes". 3E has no stated reason for it, though. Any ideas?
> 
> (The reason I ask is that I'm considering getting rid of it, but I want to see if someone can give me a good reason not to.)



Read the Libris Mortis, then you'll understand. 
The entropic animation grants it to the Undead, among many other things.


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## Arkhandus (Jun 15, 2009)

Voadam said:


> Elementals have no humanlike nervous system though minds integrated with their bodies and souls. Elementals are animated unliving material. 8HD Larged Elemental Int 6, Wis 11, Cha 11, Elder Elemental Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 11
> 
> Treants have no humanlike nervous system but are capable of thought through less centralized, less understood means. Treants are animated trees transformed by nature spirits. Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 12
> 
> I'm trying to see the difference for mind-affecting spells that says treants no and elementals yes.



Elementals are not unliving animations, though.  They are living, thinking, independent parts of the Elemental Planes, birthed by those Planes as sentient, mobile extensions of their respective Planes.  They live naturally on their Elemental Planes and have a unified essence rather than the disparate parts that make up mortal creatures.  Treants have a separate and strange mind from that of humanoids, though, and whatever semblence of a nervous system they may have is vastly different from a humanoid's and not so easily manipulated through mind-magic.  An elemental needs no physical medium for thought and decisionmaking, the entirety of its being is capable of thought.  While it may be strange, it is apparently close enough in thought processes that it can be manipulated, since it doesn't have any brain that needs magical rewiring.

Sure it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but that's just the way it is.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jun 15, 2009)

> I'm trying to see the difference for mind-affecting spells that says treants no and elementals yes.




Just from a RW perspective, you have a lot more in common with a plant (and thus, a treant)- carbon based life form that uses some kind of DNA, cells with defined interior structures, dependent upon water for survival, a need to eat, sleep/rest, breathe, etc.- than you do with a ball of flame, sentient or not.

OTOH, an elemental's physical and metaphysical nature are unified, as opposed to most beings that have a dual nature- IOW, a spirit or soul that is distinct from their material form- and that may make them vulnerable in a way that other alien beings are not.

Yeah, its a mess.


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