# Terrorism arrests on my doorstep (almost)



## S'mon (Jul 28, 2005)

This morning we woke to the radio news that the police had raided a kebab shop & another address in my immediate area of Tooting in southwest London, arresting 9 suspected terrorists.  I escorted my wife to the local Underground station and sure enough it was the dubious-looking takeaway directly opposite that we pass every day but never go into.  There were police outside it and the neighbouring street was cordoned off, with police outside an adjacent house too.  The press were everywhere.  After seeing my wife safely (I hope) into Tooting Broadway underground station I gave a short TV interview to the media expressing relief that it wasn't our favourite takewaway (opposite the raided one) & then came home.  
It gets closer every day and at this rate the next arrest/incident will be on our street.  Good thing we'd decided not to sell our house in the near future...

(edited for spelling)


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## The Thayan Menace (Jul 28, 2005)

*Don't Jump the Gun*

Your alarm is understandable, but please keep in mind that these are _suspected_ terrorists. There has not been a trial.


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## S'mon (Jul 28, 2005)

Uh, yeah.


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## Captain NeMo (Jul 28, 2005)

I'm gonna go with what Thayan said, here.


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## S'mon (Jul 28, 2005)

I'm not sure what gun you guys expect me not to jump?


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## Ashwyn (Jul 28, 2005)

S'mon said:
			
		

> I'm not sure what gun you guys expect me not to jump?



I'm a little confused about that myself. Maybe they meant it as a warning to people who haven't posted yet?


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## S'mon (Jul 28, 2005)

Ashwyn said:
			
		

> I'm a little confused about that myself. Maybe they meant it as a warning to people who haven't posted yet?




I've looked at my post again, I can't see anything but factual comment & my own feeling of apprehension.  I find their reaction a bit disturbing. Maybe they could clarify what they mean.


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## The Thayan Menace (Jul 28, 2005)

*Don't Jump the Gun (x2)*

The subtext of your commentary clearly implies panic and fear (i.e., you seem to believe that terrorists are in your neighborhood).

I'm merely suggesting that there is no solid proof of that yet.


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## Turanil (Jul 28, 2005)

S'mon said:
			
		

> Maybe they could clarify what they mean.



They mean that living so far away to the events, they can quietly discuss about it in their armchair, as myself I can quietly discuss their motives even farther away, from my own bed.


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## S'mon (Jul 28, 2005)

The Thayan Menace said:
			
		

> The subtext of your commentary clearly implies panic and fear (i.e., you seem to believe that terrorists are in your neighborhood).
> 
> I'm merely suggesting that there is no solid proof of that yet.




I am feeling fear because the police believe there are terrorists in my neighbourhood.  Actually this isn't the first instance, we found out yesterday that a well known chap the US is trying to extradite for alleged web-based terrorist-related offences, who has been in custody since last year and who has a large & vocal media campaign to free him, lives a few minutes' walk (edit: like, 2-4 minutes) from our house.

BTW I grew up in Northern Ireland and there were several bombings where I lived and where I went to school, in fact one of them hospitalised the guy sharing my mothers' office, and my sister was on the outer fringes of another.  The current situation feels scarier though.


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## The Thayan Menace (Jul 28, 2005)

*When in France*



			
				Turanil said:
			
		

> They mean that living so far away to the events, they can quietly discuss about it in their armchair, as myself I can quietly discuss their motives even farther away, from my own bed.



One does not need to visit France to know it exists. One does not need to experience terrorism in order to analyze its effects.

Attacks on my credibility aside, some suspected terrorists were recently rounded up near my neck of the woods and deported _without trial_.

Now I'm sorry, but I don't automatically assume that someone is guilty simply because they are arrested by the police.

Times like these call for vigilance against the abuse of power, not hysteria.


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## S'mon (Jul 28, 2005)

I don't believe I am displaying hysteria, merely a rationale concern for the safety of my wife and myself.


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## S'mon (Jul 28, 2005)

I wasn't too happy when they shot that Brazilian guy at Stockwell underground station, either (which cost me 2 players from my group since they look Hispanic and didn't want to take the Northern Line to my game, the only practical way to get here).


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## The Thayan Menace (Jul 28, 2005)

*Not Hysterical?*

What are these suspected terrorists being charged with?


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## S'mon (Jul 28, 2005)

?!?!


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## S'mon (Jul 28, 2005)

I'd just like to say for the record that I am not feeling hysterical.  
Although maybe some people have a different defintion of hysterical than I do, more like "concern".


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## Ashwyn (Jul 28, 2005)

nevermind


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## The Thayan Menace (Jul 28, 2005)

*War on Terror = War on Liberty = War on Ethnics*

Concern is good.

It's natural to feel concern for your family at a time like this ... and it is sometimes difficult to feel concern about the abuse of authority, especially if you're not on the receiving end.

Even so, it pays to have a critical mind ... especially at a time when so many citizens are willing to discard their civil freedoms in favor of perceived security.


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## MonsterMash (Jul 28, 2005)

Generally I'd say that its reasonable to feel concern in London looking at the facts:
Successful terrorist attack on 7th July 
Unsuccessful terrrorist attack on 21 July
Civilian shot dead by armed police on 22nd July

To date only one of four suspects from 21st July held by police. Arrests and investigations seeming to continue across the country. 

Until we have a prolonged period with no further attacks then its reasonable to be concerned and watchful, especially as the terrrorist groups responsible are aiming to create mass casualties.


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## Numion (Jul 28, 2005)

The Thayan Menace said:
			
		

> What are these suspected terrorists being charged with? [Other than Middle-Eastern descent.]




Probably with charges relating to the widely publicized bombings in London, dear Watson ..


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## The Thayan Menace (Jul 28, 2005)

*"Maybe" They're Guilty?*



			
				Numion said:
			
		

> Probably with charges relating to the widely publicized bombings in London, dear Watson ..



Your confidence is heartwarming.


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## Numion (Jul 28, 2005)

S'mon said:
			
		

> I wasn't too happy when they shot that Brazilian guy at Stockwell underground station, either (which cost me 2 players from my group since they look Hispanic and didn't want to take the Northern Line to my game, the only practical way to get here).




Rotten luck with that one. He's confronted by the police, and then does just what they'd expect a suicide bomber to do - flee, run into a subway car while wearing a sturdy jacket. Not that everyone could stay calm when confronted by the police ..


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## Numion (Jul 28, 2005)

The Thayan Menace said:
			
		

> Your confidence is heartwarming.




Well, it would be prejudiced to state the charges before complete investigation, now wouldn't it? Suspicion implies uncertainty. Hence, the word probably.


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## S'mon (Jul 28, 2005)

The Thayan Menace said:
			
		

> Concern is good.
> 
> It's natural to feel concern for your family at a time like this ... and it is sometimes difficult to feel concern about the abuse of authority, especially if you're not on the receiving end.




Actually, I feel considerable concern about both.  One doesn't get in the way of the other IMO, in fact they are intimately connected.  However I have no desire to discuss the politics of it on ENW.


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## The Thayan Menace (Jul 28, 2005)

*Cop Out*



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> Actually, I feel considerable concern about both.  One doesn't get in the way of the other IMO, in fact they are intimately connected.  However I have no desire to discuss the politics of it on ENW.



Terrorism is a political discussion, and, frankly, you are the one who brought it up by creating this thread.


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## S'mon (Jul 28, 2005)

Numion said:
			
		

> Rotten luck with that one. He's confronted by the police, and then does just what they'd expect a suicide bomber to do - flee, run into a subway car while wearing a sturdy jacket. Not that everyone could stay calm when confronted by the police ..




It still seems very unclear what actually happened.  Clearly it didn't improve peoples' confidence in the police or feeling of security, feeling we may be in almost as much danger from the police as from the terrorists (rem terrorists did kill ca 58 people earlier this month, Thayan).   Personally being from Northern Ireland I'm somewhat used to soldiers pointing guns at me and making no fast or suspicious movements, but like everyone else I run for a Tube train if it's about to depart and now I'm nervous doing that.


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## S'mon (Jul 28, 2005)

The Thayan Menace said:
			
		

> Terrorism is a political discussion, and, frankly, you are the one who brought it up by creating this thread.




Nope.

Edit: I do find your reaction unsettling.  Fear of death/injury from whatever cause is not political per se, but you seem determined to make it political, so I suppose they'll lock this thread.  I'm not sure why you're so hostile since AFAICS I don't disagree with you on anything substantive.


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## The Thayan Menace (Jul 28, 2005)

*???*



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> Nope.



That is not a logical response.


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## S'mon (Jul 28, 2005)

The Thayan Menace said:
			
		

> That is not a logical response.




OK, see edit.


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## S'mon (Jul 28, 2005)

You seem to be slagging me off for being concerned about the safety of my family.  I don't find that logical.


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## Ashwyn (Jul 28, 2005)

The Thayan Menace said:
			
		

> Terrorism is a political discussion, and, frankly, you are the one who brought it up by creating this thread.



You completely missed the point of this thread.


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## The Thayan Menace (Jul 28, 2005)

*Thread-Locking Infestation*



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> I'm not sure why you're so hostile since AFAICS I don't disagree with you on anything substantive.



No hostility here ... but, honestly, I'm surprised they haven't locked this thread already.

Besides, I'm not disagreeing ... I'm merely pointing out that your neighborhood is not necessarily infested with terrorists.


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## The Thayan Menace (Jul 28, 2005)

*Okay ....*



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> You seem to be slagging me off for being concerned about the safety of my family.  I don't find that logical.



I would _never_ fault you for caring about your family ... I'm just saying that it pays to keep an open mind, that's all ....


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## Ashwyn (Jul 28, 2005)

The Thayan Menace said:
			
		

> No hostility here ... but, honestly, I'm surprised they haven't locked this thread already.
> 
> Besides, I'm not disagreeing ... I'm merely pointing out that your neighborhood is not necessarily infested with terrorists.



Noone ever said it was. You are inferring.


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## The Thayan Menace (Jul 28, 2005)

*The Point*



			
				Ashwyn said:
			
		

> You completely missed the point of this thread.



Which is?

Frankly, the point seems to be:

"I am afraid that my neighborhood is crawling with terrorists."


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## The Thayan Menace (Jul 28, 2005)

*Inference*



			
				Ashwyn said:
			
		

> Noone ever said it was. You are inferring.



Oh, really?


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## S'mon (Jul 28, 2005)

The Thayan Menace said:
			
		

> Besides, I'm not disagreeing ... I'm merely pointing out that your neighborhood is not necessarily infested with terrorists.




I agree.  Apparently the police think it is though, which does raise the possibility.  Maybe that possibility is under 50%, but it exists in a more concrete form than it did yesterday.


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## Ashwyn (Jul 28, 2005)

The Thayan Menace said:
			
		

> Oh, really?



Show me where S'mon used the word "infested".


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## The Thayan Menace (Jul 28, 2005)

*Terrorists & More Terrorists*



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> I am feeling fear because the police believe there are terrorists in my neighbourhood.  Actually this isn't the first instance, we found out yesterday that a well known chap the US is trying to extradite for alleged web-based terrorist-related offences, who has been in custody since last year and who has a large & vocal media campaign to free him, lives a few minutes' walk (edit: like, 2-4 minutes) from our house.



Are you seriously trying to tell me that this statement does not communicate fear of an entrenched terrorist presence?


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## The Thayan Menace (Jul 28, 2005)

*Caught in the Logic Labyrinth*



			
				Ashwyn said:
			
		

> Show me where S'mon used the word "infested".



That's paltry literalism, and you know it.


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## Ashwyn (Jul 28, 2005)

The Thayan Menace said:
			
		

> That's paltry literalism, and you know it.



I think it's an important distinction. He simply stated what happened and what he was feeling. You keep trying to put words in his mouth.


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## The Thayan Menace (Jul 28, 2005)

*Inconsequential Haggling*



			
				Ashwyn said:
			
		

> You keep trying to put words in his mouth.



I am merely referring to comments he made (see #39). I'm not altering the context of his words in any fashion and, unlike you, I am not attempting to interpret everything literally.


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## Darkness (Jul 28, 2005)

Stop the bickering, everyone.

Also, if you have difficulties posting to this thread without getting political, then _don't post to this thread_ until that changes.

Thanks.


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## S'mon (Jul 28, 2005)

Ashwyn said:
			
		

> I think it's an important distinction. He simply stated what happened and what he was feeling.




That's all I wanted to do.  Of course thanks to Thayan I am now considerably more worked up than I was before.   :\


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## Ashwyn (Jul 28, 2005)

The Thayan Menace said:
			
		

> I merely am referring to comments he made. I'm not altering the context of his words in any fashion and, unlike you, I am not attempting to interpret everything literally.



And now you're trying to tell me what I'm doing. This thread was not political and would not have been shut down if it wasn't for you. There have been other threads on the subject that are still open. If you want to talk politics, you should go to Nothingland or some other place where that is allowed. It was incredibly bad form for you to derail a thread made by someone who is understandably concerned for the safety of himself and his family.


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## Berandor (Jul 28, 2005)

Okay, I'd say if you have a problem with a post or thread, to report it.

I just did.


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## The Thayan Menace (Jul 28, 2005)

*You Can't Argue a Feeling*



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> Of course thanks to Thayan I am now considerably more worked up than I was before.



It was not my intention to rile you and, if I have, I apologize.

However, I just have a hard time watching this world implode ... that's all.


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## Ashwyn (Jul 28, 2005)

Berandor said:
			
		

> Okay, I'd say if you have a problem with a post or thread, to report it.
> 
> I just did.



I did too, I just couldn't keep my cool until a mod showed up.


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## S'mon (Jul 28, 2005)

Maybe I was a bit hasty starting this thread at all.  Anyway Darkness, thanks for your forbearance, and those who wish us well in this difficult time, thanks also.


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## The Thayan Menace (Jul 28, 2005)

*Peace Out*

For what's it worth, good luck. I hope they actually catch the real culprits.


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## The Thayan Menace (Jul 28, 2005)

*Defamation of Character is Not Cool*



			
				Ashwyn said:
			
		

> It was incredibly bad form for you to derail a thread made by someone who is understandably concerned for the safety of himself and his family.



It was never my intention to "derail" this thread, and to imply that I have something personal against S'mon and his family is just plain low.


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## Numion (Jul 28, 2005)

I do hope that the people weren't arrested on skin color only. But I find it reasonable if the police arrested them based on hanging with suspected terrorists. They even have a charge for that: belonging to a terrorist organization. Being suspected of this crime could be the arrest basis.

Now the police have them, they question, they investigate some more, and let the lawyers decide what actual charges are brought. Maybe some are actually charged for belonging to a terrorist organization (the basis for arrest), and hopefully some are charged with enabling or perpetrating the London massacre.

Doesn't sound like anyones rights were thoroughly trampled. Worst case scenario: some were innocent, and had to spend some time in jail for vain. Shouldn't act suspiciously, I guess. If the crowd you hang out symphatizes with anti-UK views, maybe you should expect something like this, even if you don't deserve it.


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## diaglo (Jul 28, 2005)

S'mon said:
			
		

> I'm not sure what gun you guys expect me not to jump?



the one the police are holding and putting 5 bullets into a guy who jumped the fare.


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## S'mon (Jul 28, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> the one the police are holding and putting 5 bullets into a guy who jumped the fare.




Stay in Stoned Mountain, Diaglo.

edit: & it was 8 bullets, BTW.


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## Jonny Nexus (Jul 28, 2005)

The Thayan Menace said:
			
		

> For what's it worth, good luck. I hope they actually catch the real culprits.




Whoa!

You are correct when you say that being arrested for a crime does not make you guilty. That's why people are using phrases such as "suspected terrorists". You should assume someone is innocent until evidence is presented in a fair court to prove their guilt.

But when you say, "I hope they actually catch the *real* culprits" (emphasis mine) you seem to be stating an absolute belief that the guys who've been arrested are wholly innocent (i.e. innocent men who've been fraudulantly arrested by the police).

How can you be so certain that the police have got the wrong men?


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## Dinkeldog (Jul 28, 2005)

At least one post has been deleted for being wholly or nearly wholly political in nature.  If you're looking for your post and it is gone, that's why.


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## Berandor (Jul 28, 2005)

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> At least one post has been deleted for being wholly or nearly wholly political in nature.  If you're looking for your post and it is gone, that's why.



 No problem. Edit: I came back to edit it, myself, so it's all right  Sorry again, I should have held my trap.

If you'd now do the same to all political statements here (such as the one I responded to), I'd be even happier.


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## Numion (Jul 28, 2005)

Berandor said:
			
		

> Has someone in your presence said something extremely derogatory about your government, or city, or anything else inflammatory? Did you report him? If not, would you be o.k. with going to jail for letting it stand? If yes, do you think it was necessary?




Nah, I didn't mean it like that. I meant that if you hang with a group of people that are talking about acting against the UK with weapons. Normal banter about the taxes and such doesn't, of course, warrant any action.

ps. you probably shouldn't give even examples of political commentary.

edit: whoops, dinkle was faster.


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## Berandor (Jul 28, 2005)

Numion said:
			
		

> Nah, I didn't mean it like that. I meant that if you hang with a group of people that are talking about acting against the UK with weapons. Normal banter about the taxes and such doesn't, of course, warrant any action.
> 
> ps. you probably shouldn't give even examples of political commentary.
> 
> edit: whoops, dinkle was faster.



 Yeah, I thought you didn't mean that. And my examples have already been taken care of.


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## diaglo (Jul 28, 2005)

S'mon said:
			
		

> Stay in Stoned Mountain, Diaglo.
> 
> edit: & it was 8 bullets, BTW.




hey, i go to the Midlands about every 3 years.

one year i was returning as we were getting ready to land we banked sharply. the pilot comes over the air and tells everyone the IRA is lobbing mortar rounds on the runway.  

not something i wanted to do after an 8 hour flight.


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## S'mon (Jul 28, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> hey, i go to the Midlands about every 3 years.





Sorry - just to be clear, your post read like you were high on cannabis.


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## DungeonmasterCal (Jul 28, 2005)

I just want to live in a place named "Tooting".

Sorry... my inner Beavis took over...

Seriously... these are troubled times we live in.  I think we better get used to seeing more and more of this sort of thing.


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## Goblyns Hoard (Jul 28, 2005)

S'mon - glad to hear you're OK and sorry to hear that Tooting is such a focus in current events.  I'm glad that I moved when I did - I haven't used a tube since though I've no reason to believe that the trains won't be considered a target soon.  Hope you and Ingrid (I hope I've remembered your wife's name correctly) are doing well and don't get too stressed by everything going on around you.

For everyone else - I used to live about 10 minutes bike ride from S'mon and played a couple of games at his house.  That area of London does have a large proportion of muslims and so was always likely to be an area under scrutiny because of what's happened recently.  I read the original post and started thinking "which take away is that?" because I probably used to walk past it on my daily commute through Tooting Broadway and it's given me the creeps reading about it.  I also walk past where the first bus bomb went off and where one of the tube bombs in the second attack failed to go off on my current commute.  Like S'mon I lived with IRA car bombs as a child (in Germany when the IRA was targetting British forces abroad not in the heat of Northern Ireland where S'mon grew up).  The point I'm trying to make - I can say that it is very different seeing something on TV and walking past the remnants the day after.

I think S'mon was just expressing his concern and wanting to let everyone know about his current feelings - similar to some of the posts we get around here from new parents, bereaved friends, recent graduates or home movers.  

Dragging critiques of his meanings or intentions is not called for... a friendly pat on the back and a 'hope things go well for you in the coming weeks' is.


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## DungeonmasterCal (Jul 28, 2005)

Goblyns Hoard said:
			
		

> Dragging critiques of his meanings or intentions is not called for... a friendly pat on the back and a 'hope things go well for you in the coming weeks' is.




Agreed.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Jul 28, 2005)

DungeonmasterCal said:
			
		

> Agreed.



 Double agreed!

S'mon - you and your wife are in my thoughts and prayers.


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## Zander (Jul 28, 2005)

Some of you guys have been a pretty hard on poor old S'mon. I'm pretty sure that he understands the concept of innocent until proven guilty (he's a professor of law) and that he didn't mean to be prejudiced.

I want to wish S'mon, Ingrid (Mrs S'mon) and all the Londoners on ENWorld all the best during these troubled times. I know I'm nervous: I have to travel on the Underground into the West End of London today, i.e. a Thursday - the day of the week on which most Al Qaeda attacks occur. :\


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## S'mon (Jul 28, 2005)

There's a report from The Times here:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-1711729,00.html


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## S'mon (Jul 28, 2005)

DungeonmasterCal said:
			
		

> I just want to live in a place named "Tooting".




Oh how we laugh...


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## S'mon (Jul 28, 2005)

Thursday does seem to be the bombing day, hence extra nervousness today.



			
				Goblyns Hoard said:
			
		

> I think S'mon was just expressing his concern and wanting to let everyone know about his current feelings - similar to some of the posts we get around here from new parents, bereaved friends, recent graduates or home movers.




Yup.  It's just life today.



> Dragging critiques of his meanings or intentions is not called for... a friendly pat on the back and a 'hope things go well for you in the coming weeks' is.




  Thanks Goblyns Hoard, Zander (I agree, they were hard on poor old S'mon)   and all other well-wishers, I feel rather better now.


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## diaglo (Jul 28, 2005)

S'mon said:
			
		

> Sorry - just to be clear, your post read like you were high on cannabis.





yeah, that too.   

my point was even in my short time on this planet... well not that short but i like to think i'm still young at heart... Londoners have known terrorism. and the British Army in general. starting with their occupation of Israel following WWII. and then their continued war against the IRA.

but in that time, well it wasn't like they... shot someone 8 times for jumping a fare... well maybe they did, but i wasn't reading about it or seeing it on the News in the colonies like this.


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## der_kluge (Jul 28, 2005)

I don't think I've ever seen a thread so active before 7 am in the morning!  And the first page of this thing reads like a "who's who" of the European community.  How funny.


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## Darkness (Jul 28, 2005)

S'mon said:
			
		

> Thanks Goblyns Hoard, Zander (I agree, they were hard on poor old S'mon)   and all other well-wishers, I feel rather better now.



 I'm very glad you do. I, too, wish you and yours the best. Be safe, mate.


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## Voadam (Jul 28, 2005)

Numion said:
			
		

> Rotten luck with that one. He's confronted by the police, and then does just what they'd expect a suicide bomber to do - flee, run into a subway car while wearing a sturdy jacket. Not that everyone could stay calm when confronted by the police ..




Armed plain clothes police. According to the news reports I read and heard on the radio, despite the police statements after the fact to the contrary none of the witnesses of the events heard any police identify themselves as such or give him a warning, they chased him, tackled him, held him down, and shot him in the head when they had him pinned.

Bombings killing innocent people, attempted bombings apparently only prevented by bad bombs, police killing an innocent man as their first action to deal with it, arrests, plenty to feel concerned about there S'mon.

Hang in there.


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## GentleGiant (Jul 28, 2005)

I was in London when the first bombings took place. Pretty scary to think that if we (my girlfriend and I) had followed our original plan we would have been very, very close to one of the tubes that were hit (maybe even on it - around Liverpool Street)   
We were also unsure whether I would actually be able to get to my plane on time since large portions of the tube system was still shut down on the day I had to leave... and getting on the coach to the airport and driving past the cordoned off bus at Aldgate wasn't a pleasant experience either... nor was it a pleasant view when stopping at two intersections while police on motorcycles stopped the traffic to let a big white van pass, either containing forensic evidence or the victims of the bombings.
It's always nerve-wracking to be dependent on a transport system which has been targeted several times over the last couple of weeks and I hope that the police has unravelled the entire network (if there is a network as such) before I have to go visit my girlfriend again in mid-August.
I can definitely sympathize with S'mon, and the rest of the Londoners on here, when they're concerned about the wellbeing of their loved ones (and the general population I'd wager).
My girlfriend lives in Lewisham, another area with a large population of immigrants, mostly Africans, and I fear for them too with the focus a lot of people are aiming at anyone with a different skin colour and/or religion when terrorism raises its ugly head.

And now I just have to find a way to winnow my way into a group like S'mon's when I, hopefully, move to London within a year's time (it sounds like they have a lot of fun)


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## S'mon (Jul 28, 2005)

GentleGiant said:
			
		

> And now I just have to find a way to winnow my way into a group like S'mon's when I, hopefully, move to London within a year's time (it sounds like they have a lot of fun)




Gimme an email at simontmn at postmaster.co.uk when you arrive, chances are I'll have a space for you.  

BTW Thayan or anyone who wishes to discuss politics & events with me (in a reasonably friendly manner), you're welcome to email me likewise.

-Simon


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## GentleGiant (Jul 28, 2005)

Oh also, my visit before the one at the time of the bombings happened when the plane from France(?) had to be escorted down by two RAF fighters at Stansted because of a mobile phone left on the plane. I was actually sitting on my own return flight when the pilot announced that we were going to be a bit delayed since the whole airport had been shut down for security reasons and that the RAF fighters were escorting a plane down close to where we were to take off from...
From someone not living in the UK (yet) I sure seem to know how to land in the thick of it, so to speak.


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## HellHound (Jul 28, 2005)

nevermind


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## GentleGiant (Jul 28, 2005)

S'mon said:
			
		

> Gimme an email at simontmn at postmaster.co.uk when you arrive, chances are I'll have a space for you.
> 
> -Simon



Will do! 
If there's a chance to pop by and have a look on one of my monthly visits I'd be grateful of that too


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## Faoiltiarna (Jul 28, 2005)

First, before stating my 3 cents worth, I want to offer my support and prayers to S'mon and his wife. They are living in a perilous time with all that has happened in London lately. Only by the grace of God goes I, as the saying goes.

Now I will step on my soapbox. I think it is completely wrong to accuse S'mon of jumping the gun or in anyway being unduly anxious in light of recent events. I am lucky, I live in small town USA and don't have any mass transit to rely upon that is prone to attacks by terrorists of any kind, however, my family has witnessed and almost been victims of terrorist type attacks. My husband works in a sawmill, has all his adult life, as many individuals in the Pacific Northwest. Several years ago, while at work, one of the saws (a chopsaw) hit a metal spike in a log (put there by eco-terrorists). The sawblade exploded and shrapnel went everywhere throughout the mill. A large chunk just missed my husband's head and embedded in a nearby pillar. My husband still works in a sawmill 15 years later and I worry everyday he goes to work that another such incident will happen that will either maim or kill my husband of 22 years. Am I jumping the gun for my concerns, hell no. I have a legitimate concern. With this in mine, S'mon's concerns and fears are justified, not overreaction. Whether or not the suspects arrested today in his neighborhood are terrorists is not the point. The point is, the threat exists and now it exists all that much more for S'mon and his family. There is a good chance that those arrested are innocent, but there is an equally good chance they are guilty. That is for the courts to decide, but in the meantime, what if S'mon's concerns are not only justified, but real. What if the authorities missed one of the guilty parties responisble for the bombings? What if this person, seeing the authorities closing in on his acquaintances and cell members decides to make one last statement by detonating another bomb that can injure S'mon and/or his family? What if members of the terrorist cell decides to take on the authorities with firearms and S'mon or his wife are struck by stray bullets? There are plenty of reasons for S'mon to be concerned. So to say he is jumping the gun or have irrational fears is not only unjustified, it is insensitve to him and other victims of terrorism. 

Okay, I'm off my soapbox now. Like S'mon, if anyone wants to discuss the political aspects of combating terrorism, feel free to contact me at drgn_rydr1055@yahoo.com or at my AIM identity DrgnRydr1055.

Dragon Ryder

"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!"


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## MonsterMash (Jul 28, 2005)

As a Londoner and one of S'mon's players I can obviously understand his concerns, and with the initial bombings on the 7th July I definitely had a near miss as my commute to work was always on the Circle Line and walking away from Liverpool Street station towards Aldgate just after the bomb went off I saw the police closing the roads and the emergency services arriving at Aldgate station. 

Without getting political it is important to maintain our community in London, where we have people from every nation on earth and its sad to see that racially motivated attacks have risen since the first bombings.


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## S'mon (Jul 28, 2005)

GentleGiant said:
			
		

> Will do!
> If there's a chance to pop by and have a look on one of my monthly visits I'd be grateful of that too




Aye, sure.  We play 2 Sundays/month, 1pm-6pm, I can pretty well always fit in one-off players with a little notice.


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## Psionicist (Jul 28, 2005)

S'mons has all reasons to be concerned. However, so does The Thayan Menace. In his original post S'mon stated he is concerned about terrorists in his neighborhood. If that's okay, I don't see any problem at all if The Thayan Menace expresses HIS concern about the powers who are fighting terrorism. These two statements are equally political IMHO: "I don't like terrorists" and "I don't like the anti terrorist measures". Damn, the terrorist attacks killed 60 people or so. But the anti terrorist measures (that is, the own government) has killed 1 innocent man, and created new weird laws.

I think it's unfair to assume only parts of a political thread is actually political.


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## The Thayan Menace (Jul 28, 2005)

*Getting the Bad Guys*



			
				Jonny Nexus said:
			
		

> How can you be so certain that the police have got the wrong men?



I never said the police had the wrong men; I just said that we don't automatically know they nabbed the right men.


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## The Thayan Menace (Jul 28, 2005)

*Only The Heartless Would Ever Question the Police ....*



			
				Faoiltiarna said:
			
		

> So to say he is jumping the gun or have irrational fears is not only unjustified, it is insensitve to him and other victims of terrorism.



Having concern about mass hysteria in the wake of a legitimate threat does not make one insensitive.

Caring about the fair delivery of justice does not disparage the victims of terrorist attacks.

That being said, this allegedly apolitical thread is clearly meant only for commiserating with S'mon. I was wrong to assume that some measure of polite free speech would be appreciated here.

I will gladly depart without rancor, and leave you all to your discussion of how terrorists make us feel.

Once again, I wish S'mon and his family the best of luck and I sincerely hope that things calm down in their community.


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## tarchon (Jul 28, 2005)

The Thayan Menace said:
			
		

> The subtext of your commentary clearly implies panic and fear (i.e., you seem to believe that terrorists are in your neighborhood).
> 
> I'm merely suggesting that there is no solid proof of that yet.



It sounded pretty rational to me. S'mon didn't say "aahh! run! terrorists are in my refrigerator yahh!!!!"
He said what happened and was concerned. He seems to believe that terrorists may have connections with his neighborhood, which is quite reasonable given that London has had several terrorist incidents recently and and bunch of people in his neighborhood were just arrested in connection with them. He's not saying "arrest all the Muslims!", "suspend civil liberties now!", or anything like it. You're reading too much into it.


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## diaglo (Jul 28, 2005)

tarchon said:
			
		

> He's not saying "arrest all the Muslims!", "suspend civil liberties now!", or anything like it.



yeah, he doesn't live in the US


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## S'mon (Jul 28, 2005)

Thayan Menace:

>>That being said, this allegedly apolitical thread is clearly meant only for commiserating with S'mon<<

That's right.    I have loads of opinions about the proper balance between freedom & security, the threat to secular liberal democracy (which I like) from our own leaders as well as from Al Qaeda, police incompetence, Londonistan and compulsory ID cards, why Rumsfeld & Cheney are BBEGs etc, but it's well established that these things are not up for debate on ENW.  

Again, thanks to everyone who has offered commiserations & support.


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## S'mon (Jul 29, 2005)

tarchon said:
			
		

> It sounded pretty rational to me. S'mon didn't say "aahh! run! terrorists are in my refrigerator yahh!!!!".




From S'mon's wife:  Ha, ha, many times S'mon has opened the refrigerator and screamed "yahh!", and quite loudly. But this is because I have an unfortunate tendency to forget about past purchases and live in a state of denial about vegatative decay.

BTW - I'm not too impressed with Thayan Menace's analysis of the situation in our neighborhood this morning.  It _is_ uncomfortable to wake up hearing about arrests under the Terrorism Act in your area on the radio and it _is_ unnerving to then walk past thickets of cops and reporters to get on a nearly empty Underground train which terrorists had tried to blow up the week before.  This discomfort is only increased by insensitive comments which seemed to side immediately with those arrested rather than the unsuspecting, generally law-abiding residents of Tooting (and London generally) who happened to say they were a little worried about recent events.  

People _are_ trying to kill us commuters and some of them have succeeded.   I live with S'mon and believe me, he's not the kind to jump to conclusions (he's much more of a ponderer or a muller than a jumper). Neither of us are the kind of people who blindly trust authority, but we are, naturally, concerned about our safety, the safety of those we know and care about here and the civic health of this city that I love (not to mention local house prices).


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## The Thayan Menace (Jul 29, 2005)

*It's Never That Simple*



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> BTW - I'm not too impressed with Thayan Menace's analysis of the situation in our neighborhood this morning.  It _is_ uncomfortable to wake up hearing about arrests under the Terrorism Act in your area on the radio and it _is_ unnerving to then walk past thickets of cops and reporters to get on a nearly empty Underground train which terrorists had tried to blow up the week before.  This discomfort is only increased by insensitive comments which seemed to side immediately with those arrested rather than the unsuspecting, generally law-abiding residents of Tooting (and London generally) who happened to say they were a little worried about recent events.



It's not very fair to talk that way about someone you have never met and whose experiences you do not know.

First, I never attempted an in-depth analysis of events in your neighborhood; I simply said that it pays to keep an open mind and not simply accept what authority has to offer.

Second, I have nothing against your family ... though you seem to believe otherwise.

Furthermore, I believe your concerns are valid and I would never tell you how to feel.

So, do me a favor and ascribe motives of insensitivity more judiciously in the future.

Being critical of the justice system does not mean that I support criminals or that I hate victims.

Now ... if you refrain from making personal attacks, I will happily leave this thread and never return ... but I will not be defamed with impunity.

Good day.


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## reveal (Jul 29, 2005)

The Thayan Menace said:
			
		

> --snip--




That's the third time you've come in, complained, and then said "Goodbye, you won't see me again" or something to that effect. Is it really gonna happen this time?  :\


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## The Thayan Menace (Jul 29, 2005)

*Truth*



			
				reveal said:
			
		

> That's the third time you've come in, complained, and then said "Goodbye, you won't see me again" or something to that effect. Is it really gonna happen this time?  :\



If I am not unfairly maligned, then yes.


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## reveal (Jul 29, 2005)

The Thayan Menace said:
			
		

> If I am not unfairly maligned, then yes.




Then stop playing the martyr. Stop saying "I have nothing more to say" or "Good day" only to show up later. Just state your piece and be done with it. Or just stop reading this thread. Why do these peoples opinions of you matter so much? It's not like your honor is at stake. Some people on a message board disagree with you and/or don't like you. It's not that big of a deal.


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## Faoiltiarna (Jul 29, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> That's the third time you've come in, complained, and then said "Goodbye, you won't see me again" or something to that effect. Is it really gonna happen this time?  :\




Amen Reveal!! As for Thayan's complaint about his character being defamed, all I can do is quote my mom, "That is the pot calling the kettle black."  

It had appeared to me that Thayan started the defaming and then took offense when those of us with more sensitivity and empathy stood up for S'mon. Here is another favorite saying of my mom's btw Thayah, if you choose to respond to this post, "If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen."

To those folks in London: I hope and pray that your current troubles end soon without anymore loss of life (including those of innocent folks who are suspected of wrongdoing). It is a crazy world we are living in and I will never understand the motivation of some who think killing innocent men, women, and children will further their cause. In my moral book terrorists are cowardly, cold-blooded murderers and acts of terrorism are not political acts, but vicious attacks upon innocent bystanders. To me, they are no better than gang-bangers involved in drive-by shootings or serial killers who prey upon the weak. 

Take care everyone and be safe in this unsafe world of ours.


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## MTR (Jul 29, 2005)

The Thayan Menace said:
			
		

> If I am not unfairly maligned, then yes.




Thayan, you might try reading your first posts as if written by somebody else.  They did come across as, shall I say, less than sympathetic.  Example 1 billion of how easy it is to misrepresent your views on the internet.


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## The Thayan Menace (Jul 29, 2005)

*Well Then ....*



			
				Faoiltiarna said:
			
		

> "If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen."



By all means, your spirited discourse is accepted. I'll be happy to stay.


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## DM_Matt (Jul 29, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> yeah, he doesn't live in the US





Sigh.  Where I live the army starts patrolling the metro with rifles and whatnot whenever anything goes wrong anywhere in the world.  Believe it or not, some people, dare I say, many people, actually have a great deal of respect for the police and soldiers who put their lives on the line day in and day out to keep us safe, and don't really mind giving them quite a bit of leeway (so long as there is judicial oversight, warrants for everything, due process of law, etc) in investigating serious crimes.  Yes, police make mistakes, but I'd give them the benefit of the doubt before Joe Arrestee any day of the week, and so long as they meet their legal burden before a judge they can look at any of my stuff they want.  These people are heroes, and deserve our support.

I do not feel unfree because i have to stand in line in an airport or because the police can get a warrant to check out my use of the people's public libraries and wait a week or two before telling me.  I feel unfree to the extent that I fear that someone is going to blow be up on my way to work or threaten the continued existence of civilization as I know it.  I feel unfree knowing that true, pure, cosmic evil exists and sometimes has the ability to express itself in force .


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## The Thayan Menace (Jul 29, 2005)

*Good Idea*



			
				reveal said:
			
		

> Why do these peoples opinions of you matter so much? It's not like your honor is at stake. Some people on a message board disagree with you and/or don't like you. It's not that big of a deal.



You know, you have an excellent point.

Maybe it's my lack of sleep, but you sound _right_.

I should just let it go.

I think I will do just that.


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## Psionicist (Jul 29, 2005)

DM_Matt said:
			
		

> I do not feel unfree because i have to stand in line in an airport or because the police can get a warrant to check out my use of the people's public libraries and wait a week or two before telling me.  I feel unfree to the extent that I fear that someone is going to blow be up on my way to work or threaten the continued existence of civilization as I know it.  I feel unfree knowing that true, pure, cosmic evil exists and sometimes has the ability to express itself in force .




Google "Jose Padilla".


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## DM_Matt (Jul 29, 2005)

Psionicist said:
			
		

> Google "Jose Padilla".




I am familiar with that case.  The legal system has grey areas and adapts through ruling on such cases when they came up.  There was a legitimate grey area, the line was tested, and the courts ruled it was stepped over.  I even happen to largely agree with the court's ruling that the line was stepped over. 

On the other hand, Padilla is the exception that proves the rule.  Its easy to name the few people who wind up getting really screwed, although in Padilla's case it is more of an issue of him being pursued through what turned out to be the wrong process rather than him necessarily being innocent.  That is the process, and I have yet to see one that I like better.  This was an example of the system working, not the system failing.  I never said that everyone who is arrested is guilty, after all, although at the very least Padilla certainly was a wannabe BBEG.


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## Bloodstone Press (Jul 29, 2005)

Note that there was a bomb scare on a bus in NY a few days ago. There were a few young men on the bus with "mysterious bulges in their pockets." The police were called and they searched EVERYONE on the bus, not just the guys with bulging pockets. 

 I'm all for stopping lunatic bombers, but I don't want to be searched just because I happed to be in close proximity to a suspect in public. 

 Random searches by the police based on flimsy assumptions and draconian laws smacks of Nazism. 

 We need to protect our selves from BOTH kinds of terrorists.

 (edited)


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## Psionicist (Jul 29, 2005)

DM_Matt said:
			
		

> On the other hand, Padilla is the exception that proves the rule.  Its easy to name the few people who wind up getting really screwed, although in Padilla's case it is more of an issue of him being pursued through what turned out to be the wrong process rather than him necessarily being innocent.  That is the process, and I have yet to see one that I like better.  This was an example of the system working, not the system failing.  I never said that everyone who is arrested is guilty, after all, although at the very least Padilla certainly was a wannabe BBEG.




The "system" is working if you can throw people in jail without a trial and keep them there forever?


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## DM_Matt (Jul 29, 2005)

Psionicist said:
			
		

> The "system" is working if you can throw people in jail without a trial and keep them there forever?





Well, it has always been the case that the military can keep enemy combatants until the war in question is over.  There was a legal dispute as to what constitutes an enemy combatant, and in this single case, in which he was both a citizen and arrested in the US, the court determined that he did not fit the definition, and he was let go.  The system is working because his detention was challenged in court, and they decided NOT to keep him indefinitely (i.e. until the war is deemed over).


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## DM_Matt (Jul 29, 2005)

Bloodstone Press said:
			
		

> Random searches by the police based on flimsy assumptions and draconian laws smacks of Nazism.
> 
> We need to protect our selves from BOTH kinds of terrorists.
> 
> (edited)





Because, clearly, searching people in the vicinity of a bomb scare is akin to genocide.


I hereby state for the record that Godwin's Law has been invoked, and as such the thread is no longer capable of sustaining rational conversation


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## Crothian (Jul 29, 2005)

S';mon, I hope everythign turns okay.  I can sort of understand the feeling.  We had a slot of police activity here a few weeks back and there was a major drug bust down the street from me.  It does make one think twice about where they are living and have concnerns for friends and family in the area.


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## Bloodstone Press (Jul 29, 2005)

> Because, clearly, searching people in the vicinity of a bomb scare is akin to genocide.



 Nazism is more than just genocide. 

 Telling people there is a threat, and the only way to be safe from that threat is to give up their rights is a very slippery slope for any society to go down. Assuming that the government knows best how to protect you, and that it is justified in violating your rights as long as it fits some perceived "greater good" is how you end up living in tyranny. Worse, is when the government starts violating the rights of "those people" (that is, people that are not like you)

 You know, back in the 1800s, police in NY city carried their firearms hidden under their coats because they didn't want to make people feel intimidated. They didn't want to create a "police state" atmosphere (so says the history channel). 

 Compare that with the way the cops are today. Today, they are more like gestapo agents than friendly neighborhood beat cops. Jack boots, trained in intimidation tactics, trained to be suspicious, armed, aggressive, and frequently showing a flagrant disregard for the law (I can count at least 5 recent incidents in my local area of cops drinking and driving, harassing people, assaulting people, shop-lifting, violating traffic laws, abusing their authority, and more). 

 They don't need any more opportunities to harass people.

 I'm sure not all cops are bad, but around here, there are a LOT of bad cops. And there are a LOT of cops in general. You see them everywhere all the time. Worse, our state government has instituted a zero tolerance policy on traffic violations. Cops have been stopping people for the smallest, most menial violation lately. And this has lead to increased revenue that has completely turned the state’s finance’s around. The state has learned that it can MAKE MONEY by passing laws that fine people for driving without a seatbelt, driving without insurance, driving with a tail-light out, driving with expired tags, driving 2 MPH over the posted limit, not getting tested for emissions, not using your signal light, etc. This practice has been referred to in local newspapers as a “REVENEUE SOURCE.” 

 The police have become a brute squad whose main purpose is to shake people down and get money for the government. And again, they don't need any more opportunities to harass people.

 Anyway, I’m getting off topic. My point is, we need to protect ourselves from abusive government that promise to protect us, if we just give up our rights.  The cops have no right to search you without probable cause. Just being in the same public area as a possible terrorist is not probable cause. 

I don’t want us to flee from Terrorism straight into the arms of tyranny. 






.


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## DM_Matt (Jul 29, 2005)

Bloodstone Press said:
			
		

> Nazism is more than just genocide.
> 
> Telling people there is a threat, and the only way to be safe from that threat is to give up their rights is a very slippery slope for any society to go down. Assuming that the government knows best how to protect you, and that it is justified in violating your rights as long as it fits some perceived "greater good" is how you end up living in tyranny. Worse, is when the government starts violating the rights of "those people" (that is, people that are not like you)
> 
> ...




There is a whole lot I would like to say about this, but I'm going to not participate in a post-Godwin thread.  All I MUST say is that its a shock that anyone can regularly watch the Hitlerey Channel and still lack the perspective to compareaggressive enforcement of strict traffic laws  and the degree to which there is racial profiling (and btw, in much of the coutnry, anti-racial profiling methods have resulted in even sillier behaviors like pulling over a whole lot of random white people for no reason to get a better racial mix), to the Gestapo.  All I can imagine i that you are either regularly in trouble with the law or have been watching too many episodes of the Shield or Training Day.

Heh, I guess there were some aruguemnts there.  I failed a couple will saves, made the rest.  Anyway, that is all.


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## Piratecat (Jul 29, 2005)

This seems like a fine time to bring this thread to a close.  We sometimes let it sllip a little, but political beasts are slippery things, and can be closed at any time.


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