# On warning points...



## Morrus (Aug 19, 2020)

We don’t have a master list we look at for who has lots of warning points.

However, if you attract the attention of a moderator, and we look at your account and there’s like 10 warnings there... let’s just say that if you have a lot of warnings, your best strategy is to try not to create situations where a moderator will look at your account and notice that fact.

Two people today clearly felt that having lots of warnings meant we didn’t mean it. Two people today won’t be around here any more.

I hope that’s clear. Because I really _hate_ banning people. It upsets me. I try hard not to, but when I’ve tried not to 10 times (or 14 times in the case of one person today)....


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## Eltab (Aug 20, 2020)

Do warning points "expire"?
If somebody trips over a ru!e, gets warned, cleans up their act and stays clean, is there some time (or time frame) in the future when that point(s) come off their record?


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## Morrus (Aug 20, 2020)

Eltab said:


> Do warning points "expire"?
> If somebody trips over a ru!e, gets warned, cleans up their act and stays clean, is there some time (or time frame) in the future when that point(s) come off their record?



No. We like information, not the absence of information. We see no reason to delete information about a user's behaviour when making decisions.


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## Mistwell (Aug 20, 2020)

Morrus said:


> No. We like information, not the absence of information. We see no reason to delete information about a user's behaviour when making decisions.




Is there some reason the system SAYS they expire then? It's right there, right side, the "Expiry" date.


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## Morrus (Aug 20, 2020)

Mistwell said:


> Is there some reason the system SAYS they expire then? It's right there, right side, the "Expiry" date.



Weird Xenforo software function we ignore. We don't care if the software says it expired. We can still see them all.


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## Parmandur (Aug 20, 2020)

Where can we see warning points...?


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## Morrus (Aug 20, 2020)

Parmandur said:


> Where can we see warning points...?



You don't have any. If you had, your profile would show them to you.


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## Parmandur (Aug 20, 2020)

Morrus said:


> You don't have any. If you had, your profile would show them to you.




Oh, that's interesting.


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## billd91 (Aug 20, 2020)

Mistwell said:


> Is there some reason the system SAYS they expire then? It's right there, right side, the "Expiry" date.




Maybe the points expire but the warning persists. I know I’ve got a warning on the list while my points are 0.


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## Umbran (Aug 20, 2020)

billd91 said:


> Maybe the points expire but the warning persists. I know I’ve got a warning on the list while my points are 0.




We have a record of "active" warning points that haven't expired, _and_ of all warnings given over time, and when they were given.  And links to the posts that earned the warning....

Morrus prefer to work with the total warnings given over all time.


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## FrogReaver (Aug 20, 2020)

Umbran said:


> We have a record of "active" warning points that haven't expired, _and_ of all warnings given over time, and when they were given.  And links to the posts that earned the warning....
> 
> Morrus prefer to work with the total warnings given over all time.




Out of curiosity is it just the total number looked at or is the rate those points accumulate also looked at.  Example:  Say one person has 10 in 5 years for a rate of 2 warning point per year.  Another person has 5 in 1 year for a rate of 5 warning points in 1 year?  (Or maybe the rate is based on posts instead of years?)


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## Umbran (Aug 20, 2020)

FrogReaver said:


> Out of curiosity is it just the total number looked at or is the rate those points accumulate also looked at.




We consider each case on its individual merits and issues, such that there's no single answer to that.


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## FrogReaver (Aug 20, 2020)

Umbran said:


> We consider each case on its individual merits and issues, such that there's no single answer to that.




First of all I appreciate that you gave any response at all.  That said I’m walking away from this feeling like I have no greater understanding on the topic.


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## Umbran (Aug 20, 2020)

FrogReaver said:


> First of all I appreciate that you gave any response at all.  That said I’m walking away from this feeling like I have no greater understanding on the topic.




Yeah.  The point is that decisions about bans are not formulaic - there's consideration of the person's behavior overall.  Since there's so many different ways someone can be a jerk, we can't give a single answer on what matters.


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## FrogReaver (Aug 20, 2020)

Umbran said:


> Yeah.  The point is that decisions about bans are not formulaic - there's consideration of the person's behavior overall.  Since there's so many different ways someone can be a jerk, we can't give a single answer on what matters.




appreciate the response but seems like you are trying to answer something I’m not trying to ask. I fully agree decisions about bans don’t need to be formulaic. I’m not asking for a spelled out formula on bans.

All I’m trying to ask is of warning points are ever viewed in any other context than by looking at the total number, one alternative example being to look at warning points per 1000 posts (again just an example).

 I don’t want to go round and round on this. That’s not my intent.  Just wanted to make sure my actual question was clear.  Feel free to respond however you deem appropriate. I won’t be asking my question again or going back and forth with you on it no matter how you choose to respond.


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## Nebulous (Aug 20, 2020)

*Mod edit:*

Trying to discuss ways to evade moderators right in front of said moderators was... unwise on your part.  I mean, really, dude?

~Umbran


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## aco175 (Aug 20, 2020)

I'm on my 3rd one  





 - that is supposed to be an evil laugh, not creepy.


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## Umbran (Aug 20, 2020)

FrogReaver said:


> All I’m trying to ask is of warning points are ever viewed in any other context




I get it.  I am trying to address it without leaving you with something that is misleading.  

Are they _ever_ looked at in other ways?  Yes.  Is this a major determiner of how moderation proceeds?  Maybe yes, maybe no, for any particular case.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Aug 20, 2020)

It’s not just the number of warnings. 

Things like how many accumulated in a given window of time is a factor, as is the exact nature of the warning.  For example, someone who occasionally drops an F-bomb will probably have more leeway than someone with the same number of warnings who repeatedly uses bigoted slurs, who posts NSFW imagery or pirated intellectual property.

There’s also contrition to take into account.  Occasionally, someone simply messes up.  Years ago, I got a week’s ban from Umbran for saying something about a religion.  It wasn’t anything I actually believed, I just got sloppy with my composition and wound up slandering a billion people by accident.  But I said it, and the punishment was deserved, since the mods are not mind readers.  They can only work with the stuff on the screen.

But I also publically apologized for what I posted.*  So the moderation staff realized there probably wouldn't be a repeat of that incident.







*Which, amusingly, got me dinged for commenting on moderation in public.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Aug 20, 2020)

Plus- just to be clear- sometimes things get reported or noticed a long time after they get posted.  In many cases, unless it’s egregious, no action is taken.

But that does not mean it is _ignored._ It may still be taken into account if it’s part of a particular pattern of moddable behavior.

So, do not take for granted that a lack of visible moderator action means a lack of moderator interest or concern.


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## Hussar (Nov 7, 2020)

Just noticed the Warning Points thing on my account and wandered in here looking to ask questions and here all my questions have already been answered.  Day late and a dollar short I am.  

But, thanks for the heads up and the explanation.


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## Bedrockgames (Nov 7, 2020)

My warning seems to be a fraction (expresses as 1/2). Is that half a warning or is it more like 1 out of 2 ?


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## Umbran (Nov 7, 2020)

Bedrockgames said:


> My warning seems to be a fraction (expresses as 1/2). Is that half a warning or is it more like 1 out of 2 ?




That is actually Active/Total - you have over time had two warnings, one of them has expired.


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## Alzrius (Nov 7, 2020)

Fascinating stuff. My one (expired) warning point (for this post), in the "details of warning" field, says "not actually a warning."

When is a warning not a warning? It's like a zen koan of moderation!


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## Hussar (Nov 7, 2020)

Would making warnings visible to others be productive?  Or would it just lead to more problems?  Opinions?


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## Lanefan (Nov 8, 2020)

Alzrius said:


> Fascinating stuff. My one (expired) warning point (for this post), in the "details of warning" field, says "not actually a warning."
> 
> When is a warning not a warning? It's like a zen koan of moderation!



This warning was brought to you by Schroedinger's Warnings Inc.


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