# buckler with two handed weapon



## Kevin2377 (Nov 29, 2005)

It may be a dumb question but what are the rules about using a two-handed weapon with a buckler ? the players handbook states that you can use a bow and buckler combo.


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## DanMcS (Nov 29, 2005)

SRD said:
			
		

> Buckler
> 
> This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round.




Which part of that did you have a question about?


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## Pinotage (Nov 29, 2005)

Kevin2377 said:
			
		

> It may be a dumb question but what are the rules about using a two-handed weapon with a buckler ? the players handbook states that you can use a bow and buckler combo.




Welcome to the boards! The rules you're looking for are under the description of the buckler itself:



> Buckler
> 
> This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round.
> 
> You can’t bash someone with a buckler.




Pinotage


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## RigaMortus2 (Nov 29, 2005)

DanMcS said:
			
		

> Which part of that did you have a question about?




Reading is Fundamental


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## Infiniti2000 (Nov 29, 2005)

Kevin2377 said:
			
		

> It may be a dumb question but what are the rules about using a two-handed weapon with a buckler ? the players handbook states that you can use a bow and buckler combo.



 Welcome, Kevin.  Don't let the previous responses deter you from sticking around. 

The above (duplicated) quotes are from the 3.5 SRD, which clearly denotes two-handed weapons.  The 3.0 rules, however, are not so clear and do not mention two-handed weapons in the same section.  Are you using 3.0 perchance?  Here's the same section:


			
				3.0 SRD said:
			
		

> Buckler: This small metal shield is strapped to the forearm, allowing it to be worn and still use the hand. A bow or crossbow can be used without penalty. An off-hand weapon can be used, but a -1 penalty on attack rolls is imposed because of the extra weight on your arm. This penalty stacks with those for fighting with the off hand and, if appropriate, for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if a weapon is used in the off-hand, the character doesn't get the buckler's AC bonus for the rest of the round.



 It seems like you can't use a buckler with a two-handed weapon in 3.0, not even with a penalty.


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## IcyCool (Nov 29, 2005)

Infiniti2000 said:
			
		

> It seems like you can't use a buckler with a two-handed weapon in 3.0, not even with a penalty.




Well, there's the thing.  If you are using a two-handed weapon, are you not using a weapon in your off hand?


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## Infiniti2000 (Nov 29, 2005)

IcyCool said:
			
		

> Well, there's the thing.  If you are using a two-handed weapon, are you not using a weapon in your off hand?



 Nope.  To use a weapon in your off-hand, you would be wielding two weapons (though not necessarily one in your primary hand I suppose).  If you wield a two-handed weapon, you don't suffer two-weapon penalties.

I'm not sure that's what you meant, though, so I don't mean to sound patronizing.


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## IcyCool (Nov 29, 2005)

No offense taken, I'll see if I can clarify:

Is a person using two daggers using a weapon in his off hand?  Yes

Is a person using a two handed weapon using a weapon in his off hand?  Well, he's using it in both hands, so the answer must be yes.

I don't personally rule that way, but there is wiggle room.


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## Infiniti2000 (Nov 29, 2005)

Keep in mind that off-hand and two hands have specific game mechanics repercussions.  The rule I quoted mentions off-hand and gives penalties associated with that.  That's the same off-hand used for two weapon fighting.  Two handed weapon fighting has no such term as 'off-hand' so any use of that term must not be attributed to two-weapon fighting.  To argue as such, you'd also have to rule that you get half strength bonus, etc., which obviously creates a paradox.  In this case, how can you apply a penalty to your off-hand and not your primary hand when you attack with a two-handed weapon?  You can't, so therefore the penalty must only be for two-weapon fighting and not any other way of fighting.


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## HeapThaumaturgist (Nov 29, 2005)

So let me see if I get this straight.

Bow + Buckler = Buckler to AC, no penalty to attack.

Longsword (Primary Hand) + Buckler = Buckler to AC, no penalty to attack.

Longsword/ShortSword (PH and OH) + Buckler = NO Buckler to AC if you attack with Short Sword this round, otherwise Buckler to AC, -1 penalty to attacks.

Greatsword + Buckler = Buckler to AC, -1 penalty to attacks.

--fje


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## Sabathius42 (Nov 29, 2005)

HeapThaumaturgist said:
			
		

> So let me see if I get this straight.
> 
> Bow + Buckler = Buckler to AC, no penalty to attack.
> 
> ...




Nope...

If you are using a Greatsword....you are using your off-hand to swing the sword around and therefore do not get to use the AC bonus from the buckler.


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## IcyCool (Nov 29, 2005)

Infiniti2000 said:
			
		

> You can't, so therefore the penalty must only be for two-weapon fighting and not any other way of fighting.




Exactly.  But you can certainly fight with a two handed weapon and not get your buckler's AC bonus.


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## Infiniti2000 (Nov 30, 2005)

IcyCool said:
			
		

> Exactly.  But you can certainly fight with a two handed weapon and not get your buckler's AC bonus.



 Oh I see, you're not arguing for a penalty, you're arguing that you can use the two-handed weapon and not even get a penalty since you can "still use the hand".  You might have a point.  Additionally, I don't even see how the buckler AC bonus would not apply besides what I feel is a loose connection from "off-hand" to fighting with a two-handed weapon.

Ah well, if anyone else has a further interest in 3.0, they can debate it further.  I use the 3.5 rules, so my interest is at an end.


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## dcollins (Nov 30, 2005)

> *Buckler*:This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. *You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so.* This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round.




My reading (same as 3.0):
- You cannot get the buckler AC bonus while doing anything with your off-hand. No shooting a bow, no wielding an off-hand weapon or two-handed weapon.
- You can "carry" a buckler (not wield it for AC bonus) and shoot a bow without penalty, or wield an off-hand weapon or two-handed weapon at -1 penalty.

In other words, having a buckler gives an option each round. You can choose to either (a) defend with buckler for +1 AC, or (b) use a bow (no penalty) or off-hand or two-handed weapon (at -1).


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## Legildur (Nov 30, 2005)

dcollins said:
			
		

> In other words, having a buckler gives an option each round. You can choose to either (a) defend with buckler for +1 AC, or (b) use a bow (no penalty) or off-hand or two-handed weapon (at -1).



Seconded.  It seems pretty clear to me, and certainly how I play my elf Ftr/Pal with longsword/buckler combo.  Yet to take Power Attack, but occasionally use the ol' two-handed blow with the longsword to leverage some extra damage (-1 penalty to attack is neither here nor there for this character).  Even sometimes switching primary weapon to off hand (holding, not wielding) and draw a secondary weapon more appropriate to task.  Bucklers are great, but I think that trying to get no attack penalty when wielding a two-handed melee weapon is cheese


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## Peter Gibbons (Nov 30, 2005)

dcollins said:
			
		

> In other words, having a buckler gives an option each round. You can choose to either (a) defend with buckler for +1 AC, or (b) use a bow (no penalty) or off-hand or two-handed weapon (at -1).



Correct.


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## FATDRAGONGAMES (Nov 30, 2005)

Welcome to the boards Kevin-you'll find most people here are pretty helpful.


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## diaglo (Nov 30, 2005)

they have a feat to recover your AC bonus .. Improved Buckler Defense from iirc Complete Warrior.


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## dagger (Nov 30, 2005)

Kevin2377 said:
			
		

> It may be a dumb question but what are the rules about using a two-handed weapon with a buckler ? the players handbook states that you can use a bow and buckler combo.





Improved Buckler Defense is the way to go to solve your problems. If I were you, I would still hold out for an animated shield though.


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## Legildur (Dec 1, 2005)

Except that, if I recall correctly, Improved Buckler Defense only applies when wielding an off-hand weapon.  I don't think it works with a two-handed weapon.  But I do know that there have been at least one thread on this topic and the final position wasn't necessarily agreed.


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## Aaron L (Dec 1, 2005)

Imp Buckler Defense works with a two handed weapon.  I remember it being spelled out somewhere, even.


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## brendan candries (Dec 2, 2005)

"Imp Buckler Defense works with a two handed weapon. I remember it being spelled out somewhere, even."

mmm, so you impose a -4 off-hand penalty to hit and a max of 1/2 str bonus when fighting with a 2-hander? 

to me it's rather clear that, in 3.5, *off-hand weapon* is specifically meant for a weapon wielded in the off-hand, and that hand alone. 

PHB Buckler: ... You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an *off-hand weapon* or *using your off-hand to help wield a two handed weapon*), but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls ... This penalty stacks with those that may apply for *fighting with your off hand* and for *fighting with two weapons*. In any case, if you *use a weapon* in your off-hand, you don't get the buckler's AC bonus for the rest of the round.

using your off-hand to help wield a two handed weapon is *not fighting* with your off-hand.
using your off-hand to help wield a two handed weapon does mean you *use* a weapon in your off-hand. 

IBD:

Benefit: When you attack with a weapon in your off-hand, you may still apply your buckler's shield bonus to your Armor Class.
Normal: Without this feat, a character wielding a buckler who attacks with an *off-hand weapon* loses the buckler's shield bonus to AC until his next turn.

The Normal part of the IBD feat is correct, just not complete.


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## Legildur (Dec 2, 2005)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> Imp Buckler Defense works with a two handed weapon.  I remember it being spelled out somewhere, even.



I don't think it does, but if you want to check the FAQ, that would be the most likely place you may find it.  And if it is there, then I will eat my shorts (or, more likely, simply use that as further evidence that the FAQ is less than reliable   )


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## diaglo (Dec 2, 2005)

Legildur said:
			
		

> I don't think it does, but if you want to check the FAQ, that would be the most likely place you may find it.  And if it is there, then I will eat my shorts (or, more likely, simply use that as further evidence that the FAQ is less than reliable   )



IBD is from a noncore book.

i think that is where the problem lies more than anything.

when constructing feats for the noncore game... some feats are... uh... not thought all the way thru...

Craven... Vow of Poverty...and on and on and on


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