# the tablet war is heating up



## falcarrion

At CTIA Samsung showed mockups of the new Galaxy tab 8.9 and 10.1.
Pricing is competitive of the Ipads. And they are thinner then the Ipad 2.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots

It's not a war until they actually come out at a competitive price, rather than being promised at them.


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## Janx

I should think a product war consists of products actually competing for market share.  At prsent, there are like 2 viable alternatives to ipad on the market. 

And their sales aint that great


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## Hand of Evil

I think this is going to be like the iPod wars, yes there will be better cheaper products out there but because of marketing the pad wins, it hit first and has dug in.


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## falcarrion

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> It's not a war until they actually come out at a competitive price, rather than being promised at them.




I guess we will find out in june.


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## John Crichton

falcarrion said:


> At CTIA Samsung showed mockups of the new Galaxy tab 8.9 and 10.1.
> Pricing is competitive of the Ipads. And they are thinner then the Ipad 2.



Yes, thinner by a massive .2 millimeters. 

Heh.


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## Umbran

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> It's not a war until they actually come out at a competitive price, rather than being promised at them.




It isn't a war until they start shooting each other with bullets.



			
				Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> I think this is going to be like the iPod wars, yes there will be better cheaper products out there but because of marketing the pad wins, it hit first and has dug in.




I dunno.  The tablet market may be more like the smartphone market.  Android phones, taken collectively, have become significant competition to the iPhone.


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## Felon

I have the same basic question regarding tablets as I do for smartphones:

Who is it out there that is so obsessed with thinness that a few milimeters is a purchase consideration, and why? 

I have visions in my head of people trying to slice fruit with their phone or tablet, and it just doesn't work.


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## falcarrion

Felon said:


> I have the same basic question regarding tablets as I do for smartphones:
> 
> Who is it out there that is so obsessed with thinness that a few milimeters is a purchase consideration, and why?
> 
> I have visions in my head of people trying to slice fruit with their phone or tablet, and it just doesn't work.




Well thinness and weight sells. If you look at the orginal galaxy tab and compare it to the new one which would you buy?


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## Relique du Madde

This war will not be about iPad vs Xoom, Galexy Pad X.x, Smart Tab, Play Book, etc..


It will ultimately be about iPad vs Android, RIM, webOS, and Black Berry  (Since Balmer is to cautious about making a Windows Platform that is optimalized for tablets before 2012).

It will be interesting to see who will win the Android side of the battle.  However with that said, I'm eagerly waiting my Xoom WiFi knowing that its heavy enough to crack the skull of a iDone waiting in line for an iDevice.


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## Umbran

Felon said:


> Who is it out there that is so obsessed with thinness that a few milimeters is a purchase consideration, and why?




Consumers are not only driven by specifications that are relevant in a practical sense.  To some (many, really) having The Best matters, especially if it calls for significant expenditure to get it, as being The Best is partial justification for the price tag.  

That sometimes leads to splitting of hairs as to what qualifies as Best.


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## falcarrion

Hand of Evil said:


> I think this is going to be like the iPod wars, yes there will be better cheaper products out there but because of marketing the pad wins, it hit first and has dug in.




I'm an owner of an Ipad and am extremely happy with it. But alot has happened in just the last few weeks. When the Ipad2 was release, Samsung stated that there Galaxy Tab wasn't good enough and went about retooling it in two sizes.
They picked up the gauntlet thrown down by Apple and are aggresively persuing it. Now Amazon recently anounced there AppStore for android. And if anyone can rival the Itunes app store, it will be Amazon. It will not be long before android app creators start selling there apps through Amazon. Motorola recently cut back on the production of the Xoom and no production runs are schedule after June. Some specualte that they are also retooling there Xoom to a thinner size. No matter how deeply Apple is dug in, the dogs are nipping at there heels.
For now I'm sticking with my Ipad but am keeping an open mind on the competition.

Update: Motorola annouced to today that they are not cutting back production on the Xoom as was earlier reported. Oops my bad.


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## John Crichton

Felon said:


> Who is it out there that is so obsessed with thinness that a few milimeters is a purchase consideration, and why?



It's more weight and feel than anything else.  At that size/depth the device's  portability is high so durability then really comes in to play.


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## Relique du Madde

falcarrion said:


> Now Amazon recently anounced there AppStore for android. And if anyone can rival the Itunes app store, it will be Amazon. It will not be long before android app creators start selling there apps through Amazon.



Actually, the interesting thing about  Amazon Apps (beyond apple's attempt to sue them for the word "App"), is that many android devs ARE using it as a secondary point of purchase.  What I heard is that some makers are placing the "standard free" admob version of the app in the Android Market while planning on placing the pay non-Ad version in Amazon Apps.



> Update: Motorola annouced to today that they are not cutting back production on the Xoom as was earlier reported. Oops my bad.



It should be mentioned that the confusion about the Xoom partially is because Motorola announced last month (around when they released the Xoom) that they are making a "low price point" version of the Xoom that was expected at being either 7 inches or 8.1 inches.  It's possible that this Xoom might have been the "thinned" "retooled" Xoom people thought Motorola was going to build.


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## Umbran

John Crichton said:


> It's more weight and feel than anything else.  At that size/depth the device's  portability is high so durability then really comes in to play.




That small difference in depth doesn't change the portability much.  It's the smaller screen that matters, to be notably more portable than the iPad, while still far more useful for applications than an smart phone.


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## John Crichton

Umbran said:


> That small difference in depth doesn't change the portability much.  It's the smaller screen that matters, to be notably more portable than the iPad, while still far more useful for applications than an smart phone.



I have no idea what products you are trying to compare in this statement.


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## Felon

Umbran said:


> Consumers are not only driven by specifications that are relevant in a practical sense.  To some (many, really) having The Best matters, especially if it calls for significant expenditure to get it, as being The Best is partial justification for the price tag.



If that milimeter thinness or two of thinness doesn't have some personal practical value to an individual, how can it have anything to do with qualifying a product as The Best? Because lines of form around the block for it, like cattle waiting to go into the chute? Because CNN or CNet does a bit on it? Popularity does equate to quality. 

Sure, some people choose to follow the pied piper of media hype. Like any unattractive truth about human nature, acknowledging it is practical. Accepting it is lamentable. Embracing it is tragic.


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## Felon

John Crichton said:


> It's more weight and feel than anything else.  At that size/depth the device's  portability is high so durability then really comes in to play.



I bought an ASUS EP121 Windows 7 tablet a couple weeks ago, and I certainly wish it was lighter, but not necessarily thinner. At a certain point, something's that's too thin leads to hand cramps (try hold an 8.5 x 11" piece of postcard-thin carboard for a length of time. I'd say when we're talking fractions of an inch, portability isn't really improved that much.


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## John Crichton

Felon said:


> I bought an ASUS EP121 Windows 7 tablet a couple weeks ago, and I certainly wish it was lighter, but not necessarily thinner. At a certain point, something's that's too thin leads to hand cramps (try hold an 8.5 x 11" piece of postcard-thin carboard for a length of time. I'd say when we're talking fractions of an inch, portability isn't really improved that much.



That's what I meant.


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## renau1g

Umbran said:


> It isn't a war until they start shooting each other with bullets.




What about the Cold War? US and Soviets weren't shooting at each other directly 

To some (many?) they associate Apple with their hip, cool lifestyle as opposed to actually using it for anything or needing it. I've asked a couple friends _why_ they want an Ipad... their answers were like this amazingly funny video. "I need one b-b-b-bad"

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40AthIcKMbE]YouTube - Jake and Amir: iPad[/ame]


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## Fast Learner

Umbran said:


> I dunno.  The tablet market may be more like the smartphone market.  Android phones, taken collectively, have become significant competition to the iPhone.




I believe the market will be very, very similar to the mp3 player market and utterly unlike the smartphone market for one key reason: no carrier bondage. If the iPhone was available on all carriers _and_ in Best Buy, Target, Walmart, etc. like the iPad is, Android phones wouldn't have done nearly as well, in my opinion. 

As with all retail sales, the winner is the best marketer, with the "best" product being only peripherally related.

That said, every argument based on "sheep" or "drones" or whatever other insult is simply name-calling and completely undermines any point one might make. Just call me a "poopyhead" and move on to the swingset, man, or be done with the schoolyard insults.

That I like pepperoni and loathe anchovies doesn't make me stupid, and it doesn't mean I'm an idiot who simply follows the crowd. Talk to me about the delicious saltiness and the beneficial omega-3 fatty acids of your topping and I'll consider your argument, but matters of taste are personal things and odds are I'll go on enjoying my pepperoni no matter how many other people like it, too. It won't mean I'm dumb, and it certainly won't mean you're smarter or better than me, just as the fact that a lot of other people prefer pepperoni doesn't mean your taste for a less popular topping is wrong.


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## John Crichton

Fast Learner said:


> I believe the market will be very, very similar to the mp3 player market and utterly unlike the smartphone market for one key reason: no carrier bondage. If the iPhone was available on all carriers _and_ in Best Buy, Target, Walmart, etc. like the iPad is, Android phones wouldn't have done nearly as well, in my opinion.
> 
> As with all retail sales, the winner is the best marketer, with the "best" product being only peripherally related.
> 
> That said, every argument based on "sheep" or "drones" or whatever other insult is simply name-calling and completely undermines any point one might make. Just call me a "poopyhead" and move on to the swingset, man, or be done with the schoolyard insults.
> 
> That I like pepperoni and loathe anchovies doesn't make me stupid, and it doesn't mean I'm an idiot who simply follows the crowd. Talk to me about the delicious saltiness and the beneficial omega-3 fatty acids of your topping and I'll consider your argument, but matters of taste are personal things and odds are I'll go on enjoying my pepperoni no matter how many other people like it, too. It won't mean I'm dumb, and it certainly won't mean you're smarter or better than me, just as the fact that a lot of other people prefer pepperoni doesn't mean your taste for a less popular topping is wrong.



Don't eat the Apple, man!  It's not meant for that!


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## JoeGKushner

How do you see that working out though? I believe in the Euro zone, the tablets are actually able to be used as phones.

in addition, several of the tablets stateside are available with a carrier with a reduced fee with a 2 year contract including the Xoom and the iPad.




Fast Learner said:


> I believe the market will be very, very similar to the mp3 player market and utterly unlike the smartphone market for one key reason: no carrier bondage. If the iPhone was available on all carriers _and_ in Best Buy, Target, Walmart, etc. like the iPad is, Android phones wouldn't have done nearly as well, in my opinion.
> 
> As with all retail sales, the winner is the best marketer, with the "best" product being only peripherally related.
> 
> That said, every argument based on "sheep" or "drones" or whatever other insult is simply name-calling and completely undermines any point one might make. Just call me a "poopyhead" and move on to the swingset, man, or be done with the schoolyard insults.
> 
> That I like pepperoni and loathe anchovies doesn't make me stupid, and it doesn't mean I'm an idiot who simply follows the crowd. Talk to me about the delicious saltiness and the beneficial omega-3 fatty acids of your topping and I'll consider your argument, but matters of taste are personal things and odds are I'll go on enjoying my pepperoni no matter how many other people like it, too. It won't mean I'm dumb, and it certainly won't mean you're smarter or better than me, just as the fact that a lot of other people prefer pepperoni doesn't mean your taste for a less popular topping is wrong.


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## Rabulias

renau1g said:


> What about the Cold War? US and Soviets weren't shooting at each other directly




Didn't Einstein say "If World War III is fought with iPads and Androids, then World War IV will be fought with Apple Newtons and Palm Pilots"?


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## Fast Learner

JoeGKushner said:


> How do you see that working out though? I believe in the Euro zone, the tablets are actually able to be used as phones.



I've not heard of that. Even if true -- and I'd be really stunned if a non-jailbroken iPad could be used as a phone, since the software has no support for it at all --  how does that affect anything? The point is that with the iPhone you could only use one if you subscribed to a carrier that had it; in the US that meant AT&T only. If you were in a Verizon, Sprint, T-Mobile, or local carrier (Metro PCS, Cricket, etc.) contract, you either had to pay for two contracts or go with whatever phones your carrier actually had. This was especially true if you were a company or a family that had a contract with someone besides AT&T because the switching cost was huge and, commonly, not worth it. 

With the iPad it doesn't matter what mobile carrier you have, you can buy an iPad without changing cell plans. Apple specifically set it up so that even if you buy an iPad with cellular data hardware you still don't have to get a contract with a carrier: cell data is a la carte, with the power to buy one month at a time, turning it on and off from within the OS as you wish. If you get the wifi-only version you can tether it to whatever cell phone you want (via wifi), including your Android phone.



> in addition, several of the tablets stateside are available with a carrier with a reduced fee with a 2 year contract including the Xoom and the iPad.



That's true of the Xoom but it's not true of the iPad 2: there are no discounts on the hardware for buying a cell contract. The price you pay at Best Buy is the price you pay at the Verizon store is the price you pay at Walmart is the price you pay on Amazon, with only tiny differences. You _can_ buy a postpaid cell data contract from AT&T for the iPad, but it has no effect on the price of the iPad, you just get slightly cheaper data.

Point is you can buy an iPad anywhere and your cell carrier doesn't matter, just like with the iPod. When the iPod came out there were plenty of mp3 players that had better features -- more space, radios, bigger displays, etc. -- and plenty of mp3 players at a better price, yet they went on to take 85% of the market very, very quickly. The two primary reasons -- superior user experience and the iTunes music store -- hold true for the the iPad as well. And this time, unlike with the iPod, Apple actually managed to launch the product almost a full year before any other manufacturers had tablets in the same realm.

Don't forget the Apple Stores, either: the company is extremely good at encouraging you to put your hands on their products while you look around at all of the other people there who are smiling and playing with their products, and they make the purchase incredibly easy: no need to go to a cash register (there are none), a friendly salesperson will take your credit card, swipe it through their iPod Touch, and if you've bought anything from Apple before, email you the receipt while you walk out the door with your new product in hand.

Whether the iPad is the _best_ tablet is a fair issue for debate, but it is by far the best selling and, imo, will remain so for at least the next 2 years. The sales "war" -- at least in the near term -- was won a year ago.


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## John Crichton

JoeGKushner said:


> How do you see that working out though? I believe in the Euro zone, the tablets are actually able to be used as phones.



Widespread video calling isn't a big deal.  Also, tablets are too large to double as a phone for most people.  Let alone replace a music player.


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## Umbran

Felon said:


> If that milimeter thinness or two of thinness doesn't have some personal practical value to an individual, how can it have anything to do with qualifying a product as The Best?




Well, it is the thinnest - the best at being thin!

News flash - humans are not always reasonable, and water is wet!




Fast Learner said:


> I believe the market will be very, very similar to the mp3 player market and utterly unlike the smartphone market for one key reason: no carrier bondage. If the iPhone was available on all carriers _and_ in Best Buy, Target, Walmart, etc. like the iPad is, Android phones wouldn't have done nearly as well, in my opinion.




I dunno.  I think the "I don't like Apple" contingent would have been large enough to carry Andriod, even if the iPhone weren't bound, given the similar technical capabilities.  It just might have taken a little longer.  Remember that the phone companies are trying to get you to switch phones every year or two, which can make for some pretty fast mixing with turnover.


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## Fast Learner

Umbran said:


> I dunno.  I think the "I don't like Apple" contingent would have been large enough to carry Andriod, even if the iPhone weren't bound, given the similar technical capabilities.  It just might have taken a little longer.



The "I don't like Apple" contingent is very vocal but is a tiny minority of actual consumers, maybe 10% or so. A much higher percentage of whiny net geeks and neckbeards (I'm a card-carrying neckbeard), but Apple doesn't market to them anyway.

I'm not saying that Android wouldn't have sold, I just think the percentage would have been much smaller, mostly to that "don't like Apple" group and to some price-sensitive consumers.


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## TarionzCousin

Rabulias said:


> Didn't Einstein say "If World War III is fought with iPads and Androids, then World War IV will be fought with Apple Newtons and Palm Pilots"?



And World War V will be fought with Abacuses and Roman Numerals.


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## falcarrion

If the reports are correct on the first week of sales of the Ipad 2 in the US,
500,000 units sold. In Europe just for the weekend 300,000.
I believe sales would be higher if more untis where available in the US and Europe. I know where I live, every store is sold out.


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## Relique du Madde

I have to say that I love my Xoom and I can't wait till next year cause now that the flood gates have been open, I only know better android tablets will be on it's their way (and I hope that Google decides to fix the "bug" (or feature) that prevents certain large widgets from docking on the upper left corner of the home screen cause having them dock on that corner on all the other screens really bugs the hell out of me).


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## Hand of Evil

What I find interesting is that this has become a war of portable OSes, phone OS not the normal desktop OSes.


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## Fast Learner

Hand of Evil said:


> What I find interesting is that this has become a war of portable OSes, phone OS not the normal desktop OSes.




Indeed, I'd hate to be Microsoft. Don't get me wrong, they're doing fine now, and have a firm foothold in the enterprise, but we really are entering a "post-pc" era. Today it's mostly for casual uses, but that is changing very quickly, and the ground beneath that foothold is beginning to crumble.


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## John Crichton

Fast Learner said:


> Indeed, I'd hate to be Microsoft. Don't get me wrong, they're doing fine now, and have a firm foothold in the enterprise, but we really are entering a "post-pc" era.



We really aren't.  Just because more devices are out there it doesn't mean that desktop computers aren't being anymore.  Quite the contrary.  Many of these portable devices still need to sync up with a PC to do things like install apps, transfer media and the like.


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## Fast Learner

John Crichton said:


> We really aren't.  Just because more devices are out there it doesn't mean that desktop computers aren't being anymore.  Quite the contrary.  Many of these portable devices still need to sync up with a PC to do things like install apps, transfer media and the like.



Both iOS and Android fully support over-the-air app installation, and both support a variety of over-the-air syncing options. I'm not aware of any media transfer that requires a hardware sync.

Android supports over-the-air data backup and OS upgrades, both of which you'll likely see in iOS within a year or so (Apple is said to have avoided it so far due to the ability to lose data or even magically brick a phone in a situation where it's hard to restore, something that does cause some Android users trouble.)

The only reason I ever sync my iPad or my iPhone is for data backup and OS upgrades. If it weren't for that temporary need, both of my parents could easily and happily get by with just iPads. We're in the midst of a mighty transformation, I argue.


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## Hand of Evil

Agree with Fast Learner, with the coming of 4G and the sorry state of the US DSL/Cable speeds (ranked 28th in the world, last I heard) the tablets are soon to be "to the cloud" for everything.


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## John Crichton

Fast Learner said:


> Both iOS and Android fully support over-the-air app installation, and both support a variety of over-the-air syncing options. I'm not aware of any media transfer that requires a hardware sync.



Pretty much every iPod, for one example.



Fast Learner said:


> Android supports over-the-air data backup and OS upgrades, both of which you'll likely see in iOS within a year or so (Apple is said to have avoided it so far due to the ability to lose data or even magically brick a phone in a situation where it's hard to restore, something that does cause some Android users trouble.)



And data is backed up to a PC, yes?  I love my Droid phone and the capabilities are impressive.  However, that doesn't mean that I don't use my home PC when I'm there.



Fast Learner said:


> The only reason I ever sync my iPad or my iPhone is for data backup and OS upgrades. If it weren't for that temporary need, both of my parents could easily and happily get by with just iPads. We're in the midst of a mighty transformation, I argue.



That need isn't going away anytime soon and even if it does, PCs aren't going away nor will their utility vanish until portable processing power is many magnitudes greater than it is now.

I'm not saying that tablets and portable computing isn't growing because it is and that is frickin' awesome.  But saying that PCs are a thing of the past or are in decline isn't remotely true.


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## John Crichton

Hand of Evil said:


> Agree with Fast Learner, with the coming of 4G and the sorry state of the US DSL/Cable speeds (ranked 28th in the world, last I heard) the tablets are soon to be "to the cloud" for everything.



My internet connection is great.  I pay a little extra for it to be that way but there it is.


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## Relique du Madde

Fast Learner said:


> Indeed, I'd hate to be Microsoft. Don't get me wrong, they're doing fine now, and have a firm foothold in the enterprise, but we really are entering a "post-pc" era. Today it's mostly for casual uses, but that is changing very quickly, and the ground beneath that foothold is beginning to crumble.




Jobisms are only clever marketing phrases/ploys for the weak minded.   Steve Jobs considers a iDevice a computer.  iDevices be them phones or pads or pod are personal devices same with non iDevice tablets phones and what not.  Thus making them EXTREMELY personal computers.  Lexicon fail.  Of course, Jobs wants it to be a post-pc world since then he would consider himself a WINNER on a Sheenian scale 
(since he considers "post-pc" as meaning microsoft has lost instead of microsoft has stepped back because thye don't want an other monopoly suit while they are helping facebook become the next AOL).

The only way we will ever be post "PC" is if you could do everything you could do on a PC/desktop/laptop/webbook on a phone or tablet.  That everything includes filming Avatar, rendering it's graphic or developing a immersible 3d environment real time multi-player game capable of holding the entire population who plays WoW on one server, and running a processing intensive program (like flash) WHILE MULTITASKING and not having to have a server farm somewhere to handle all the processing because our next gen processors are that fast (yes, iI realize I'm talking about the singularity, but without reaching that then we can't have a true Post PC world).

Until any hand held device can do a fraction of that, without gagging or Steve Jobs claiming "we don't need X because not having it is better, durrr" then don't say things like "post pc" and expect to get a pass from anyone who isn't a cool aid drinker or marketer.


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## Fast Learner

Relique du Madde said:


> Jobisms are only clever marketing phrases/ploys for the weak minded.



Unless they happen to turn out to be true, like the importance of personal computers in the home, the graphic user interface, and easy, cheap, legal downloading of music via iTunes.



> Steve Jobs considers a iDevice a computer.  iDevices be them phones or pads or pod are personal devices same with non iDevice tablets phones and what not.  Thus making them EXTREMELY personal computers.  Lexicon fail.



People do not consider their phones to be "PCs." That the acronym applies doesn't mean the concept does.



> Of course, Jobs wants it to be a post-pc world since then he would consider himself a WINNER on a Sheenian scale
> (since he considers "post-pc" as meaning microsoft has lost instead of microsoft has stepped back because thye don't want an other monopoly suit while they are helping facebook become the next AOL).



Entirely unlike the way he launched the popularity of the personal computer, the GUI, and mp3 players. Oh, and Pixar. "Man, that guy has no actual track record, just full of himself," that's your theory?



> The only way we will ever be post "PC" is if you could do everything you could do on a PC/desktop/laptop/webbook on a phone or tablet.



Only if "post-pc" means there will no longer be any non-tablet computers, which of course it doesn't.



> That everything includes filming Avatar, rendering it's graphic or developing a immersible 3d environment real time multi-player game capable of holding the entire population who plays WoW on one server, and running a processing intensive program (like flash) WHILE MULTITASKING and not having to have a server farm somewhere to handle all the processing because our next gen processors are that fast (yes, iI realize I'm talking about the singularity, but without reaching that then we can't have a true Post PC world).
> 
> Until any hand held device can do a fraction of that, without gagging or Steve Jobs claiming "we don't need X because not having it is better, durrr" then don't say things like "post pc" and expect to get a pass from anyone who isn't a cool aid drinker or marketer.



Your theory, then, is unless a tablet can do _everything_ a full-blown PC can do, people who aren't sheep will continue to buy PCs, is that correct? That because everyone who would want a computing device will need to be able to film Avatar, have a server in their hands, and run an outdated and rapidly fading multimedia VM, PCs will rule?

You know, we're living in a post-mainframe world, and in a post-minicomputer world, despite the fact that a very small subset of the population still needs to use them and even buy new ones. I take it you don't subscribe to the idea that we're currently in PC world because some people still need more powerful machines, is that correct?

Your name calling does nothing but weaken your argument. It's Kool-Aid, btw, as long as you're going to cast aspersions.


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## Argyle King

The main thing which stopped me from buying an iPad was the lack of USB ports and/or some way of connecting it to other devices I have.

From an outside looking in, (right or wrongly) it seems as though I mostly need official iPad apps to be able to do some of the things I want to do.

I think having a tablet would be great, but, until iPad adds a few features I want or the competition offers a better price without sacrificing ability, I can use my phone for most of the things I could do with a tablet and be just as happy.


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## falcarrion

Johnny3D3D said:


> The main thing which stopped me from buying an iPad was the lack of USB ports and/or some way of connecting it to other devices I have.
> 
> From an outside looking in, (right or wrongly) it seems as though I mostly need official iPad apps to be able to do some of the things I want to do.
> 
> I think having a tablet would be great, but, until iPad adds a few features I want or the competition offers a better price without sacrificing ability, I can use my phone for most of the things I could do with a tablet and be just as happy.




What devices are you trying to hook up? You can get an usb adapter.
what are the things you need to do?


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## Solvarn

Hand of Evil said:


> I think this is going to be like the iPod wars, yes there will be better cheaper products out there but because of marketing the pad wins, it hit first and has dug in.




I own a Samsung Galaxy tab and I'm not so sure. I think that the needs for a tablet are a little more sophisticated than that of an mp3 player. For example, I'm more willing to forgive the lack of multitasking in the iPhone but for me on a tablet it was a deal breaker. In addition the support for Android is there. There are a few sticky issues but it could be a pretty intense battle.

I can see the tablets replacing PC's pretty easily. For basic functions tablets using cloud computing perform well and can meet the essential functions most people use for computing, particularly if they are docked and it's easier to type. The line between gaming PC and consoles is blurring quite a bit.


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## falcarrion

John Crichton said:


> Pretty much every iPod, for one example.




That may not be true any more. It depends on what your trying to do.
Lets say you only listen to music on your Itouch. If you only listen to music while your with in your wifi range of your router you can now share music between itunes, your ipad, and your itouch. So I can load all my music in Itunes, and listen to it on my itouch or ipad without having to load any music on either device. It basicly depends how new your device is.


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## falcarrion

Solvarn said:


> I own a Samsung Galaxy tab and I'm not so sure. I think that the needs for a tablet are a little more sophisticated than that of an mp3 player. For example, I'm more willing to forgive the lack of multitasking in the iPhone but for me on a tablet it was a deal breaker. In addition the support for Android is there. There are a few sticky issues but it could be a pretty intense battle.
> 
> I can see the tablets replacing PC's pretty easily. For basic functions tablets using cloud computing perform well and can meet the essential functions most people use for computing, particularly if they are docked and it's easier to type. The line between gaming PC and consoles is blurring quite a bit.




I have a question about your Galaxy Tab. If you buy an app (or do you refer to it as apk) can you load it on your android phone at no additional cost? Or would you have to buy it twice?


----------



## Relique du Madde

falcarrion said:


> I have a question about your Galaxy Tab. If you buy an app (or do you refer to it as apk) can you load it on your android phone at no additional cost? Or would you have to buy it twice?




You can with no extra charge as long as it's purchased in the Android Market or Amazon App Store.  I'm not sure about other app markets/stores.

However, I should note that this *might* not be the case with some services that can be accessed through an apps (such as virus protection or non google data-protection) or some in app purchase unless that app accesses an external server.


----------



## Zaukrie

After surfing the web, video watching is my next most likely use....like yogajournaltv (flash), espn3.com (flash), and a bunch of other flash sites. I know, someday flash wont' matter, but you know what, it does now.

THAT is why I don't own an iPad.

And, I really want to see what the android tablets are doing by this summer....


----------



## Argyle King

falcarrion said:


> What devices are you trying to hook up? You can get an usb adapter.
> what are the things you need to do?




Being able to transfer information to/from external hard drives would be something I'd need USB for.  

Also, when I have people over for game night, being able to display a pdf of a map or something of that nature on my TV would be helpful.

Being able to get music and media without going through iTunes would also be a preference of mine.  (this may be doable, I'm not sure)

Those three spring to mind right away.


----------



## John Crichton

falcarrion said:


> That may not be true any more. It depends on what your trying to do.
> Lets say you only listen to music on your Itouch. If you only listen to music while your with in your wifi range of your router you can now share music between itunes, your ipad, and your itouch. So I can load all my music in Itunes, and listen to it on my itouch or ipad without having to load any music on either device. It basicly depends how new your device is.



Yes, home options are expanding and newer devices are getting better at that.  However, there are millions of owners that won't care about that for years.  And unless I can get all that on the go it won't truly matter since I still lose that functionality everywhere else.


----------



## Fast Learner

Zaukrie said:


> After surfing the web, video watching is my next most likely use....like yogajournaltv (flash), espn3.com (flash), and a bunch of other flash sites. I know, someday flash wont' matter, but you know what, it does now.
> 
> THAT is why I don't own an iPad.




What's not apparent to most folks browsing the web on their PCs is that more than 70% of Flash video has HTML5/H263 alternate video that automatically substitutes, with the percentage growing all the time. All of YouTube, Vimeo, FunnyOrDie, The Onion, etc. etc. do it automatically. If there's a site you're curious about and you have the Safari browser installed on your Windows PC or Mac, you can turn on Developer mode in the Advanced Preferences and then change your user-agent to "iPad" and visit the site in question. The site will think you're on an iPad and automatically substitute HTML5 video if it's available.

And really, even if you get an Android tablet that actually supports Flash video (currently they're pretty awful, unfortunately), you'll likely want to watch HTML5 video whenever possible because it -- generally -- takes better advantage of hardware decompression and uses less processor (and therefor, importantly, less battery).

That said, the two sites you specifically mentioned don't currently offer HTML5 backup (though the Yoga Journal offers an iPad app with 15 of the same videos), so it definitely sounds like it's not currently for you. I'm confident that will change, but it will take time.


----------



## falcarrion

Zaukrie said:


> After surfing the web, video watching is my next most likely use....like yogajournaltv (flash), espn3.com (flash), and a bunch of other flash sites. I know, someday flash wont' matter, but you know what, it does now.
> 
> THAT is why I don't own an iPad.
> 
> And, I really want to see what the android tablets are doing by this summer....




There are apps that will let you run flash. Check out Skyfire or Iswifter.
I don't blame you wanting to check out android.


----------



## falcarrion

Johnny3D3D said:


> Being able to transfer information to/from external hard drives would be something I'd need USB for.
> 
> Also, when I have people over for game night, being able to display a pdf of a map or something of that nature on my TV would be helpful.
> 
> Being able to get music and media without going through iTunes would also be a preference of mine.  (this may be doable, I'm not sure)
> 
> Those three spring to mind right away.




There are apps that will let you transfer data such as " USB disk for ipad". Or over the cloud with apps like " dropbox"

With the Ipad 2 you can now mirror what ever is showing on the ipad2 to a tv with the hdmi adapter or the av adapter.


----------



## falcarrion

I just read this on "Ipad.net" about ipad 2 sales.

Philip Elmer-DeWitt at the Apple 2.0 blog has compiled a list of estimates from analysts, and they vary pretty widely, with the average being 6.26 million. The numbers cover 14 days of U.S. sales, plus the first 2 days of international sales. The lowest estimate, a conservative 5 million, came from Chris Whitmore of Deutsche Bank. The highest number, a whopping 8.8 million, was predicted by Hendi Susanto of Gambelli.

iPad 2 News: 5 ? 9 Million iPad 2s Sold In Two Weeks? – iPad.net


----------



## Janx

Out of curiosity:

is there any vetting or testing of Android apps that are submitted to the official android store or the Amazon store (not really sure why they need 2 stores...)

do the android pads have cellular data plans available (I suspect so), or is it just WiFi

What major book readers apps are on Android (ipad has apple, amazon, kobo, but not sony). Note, I'm talking apps that represent the major publishers, not like Stanza which is just an ebook reader).  Having an app means you don't have to buy a Kindle or a Nook, or a Sony E-Reader.

Have there been any serious security issues with Android apps (if I recall, there were a few naughty Apple Apps, but they mostly get pulled when detected).


How does the "average" user feel about the user interface/ease of use on Android?

Some of my questions are a bit loaded.  I favor Apple's approval system for apps over an unregulated system.  Given that they have a ginormous app store, it's not like it's hurting creativity or ability to publish.  That said, those rat bastards did reject Sony's reader app, which would have solved my getting access to all the e-books my wife bought for her Sony reader.

I'm not hopping off the iThing train anytime soon.  All our iPhones are hooked into my share storage for iTunes.  and my free iPad1 with 16GB and only WiFi seems plenty useful.  Given all they can do, it's only inconvenient on the things they can't do.  

And unlike products we've all purchased in the past, all of these devices' capabilities have increased over time.  You can't say that about your plain old phone, toaster or SD TV.  So some shortcomings can be overcome.


----------



## Relique du Madde

Janx said:


> is there any vetting or testing of Android apps that are submitted to the official android store or the Amazon store (not really sure why they need 2 stores...)



amazon's app store is stated to have a builtin android emulator.



> do the android pads have cellular data plans available (I suspect so), or is it just WiFi



Both are available. 


> What major book readers apps are on Android (ipad has apple, amazon, kobo, but not sony). Note, I'm talking apps that represent the major publishers, not like Stanza which is just an ebook reader).  Having an app means you don't have to buy a Kindle or a Nook, or a Sony E-Reader.



Android has Google books, nook, kindle, sony, kobo, etc.

But it should be noted that Nooks ARE ANDROID devices.  



> Have there been any serious security issues with Android apps (if I recall, there were a few naughty Apple Apps, but they mostly get pulled when detected).



Yes, and when google hears about malicious apps they have been known to pull them.  



> How does the "average" user feel about the user interface/ease of use on Android?



What is an "average" user?  I know that some iDevice users/tech commenter seemed to have been scared by Honeycomb's apparent complexity.  However, it took me a few minutes at most to realize what the new buttons do on my Xoom (the layout changed from 2.x to 3.0) and a non 3.0 friendly app I placed several invisible widgets on my home screen (my previously mentioned "bug").  Thankfully when that ap updated last night I saw all those 1x1 widget icons.

When I got my droid I figured things out immediately though and this is having not having used had an iDevice since my 2005 iPod video become corrupt back in 2006.  After all, one row of icons device interface is just like the next row of icons device interface.


----------



## Argyle King

falcarrion said:


> There are apps that will let you transfer data such as " USB disk for ipad". Or over the cloud with apps like " dropbox"
> 
> With the Ipad 2 you can now mirror what ever is showing on the ipad2 to a tv with the hdmi adapter or the av adapter.





Can I plug a USB drive into an iPad?

I've been told there aren't any ports on the iPad.


----------



## Hand of Evil

Johnny3D3D said:


> Can I plug a USB drive into an iPad?
> 
> I've been told there aren't any ports on the iPad.




no ports on the iPad BUT there are adpters to output to VGA and USB and I have seen a bluetooth/Wifi app/device for this.


----------



## Argyle King

Do I have to use official iPad apps or am I able to install other things?  In a previous message I mentioned that I'd prefer to not use iTunes.


Also, how hardware/software intensive is it to adapt iPad to USB output?  I don't want to buy one just to find out that I need a bunch of 'official' iPad material just to be able to perform simple functions.

Some of the alternatives do have the ports and such that I want; however, they cost more and give me less memory and computing power from what I can gather from online comparisons of the specs.


----------



## John Crichton

Johnny3D3D said:


> Also, how hardware/software intensive is it to adapt iPad to USB output?  I don't want to buy one just to find out that I need a bunch of 'official' iPad material just to be able to perform simple functions.



It's one adapter for each of the formats.  HDMI, component and such.


----------



## falcarrion

Johnny3D3D said:


> Can I plug a USB drive into an iPad?
> 
> I've been told there aren't any ports on the iPad.




You can get an adapter that makes the 30 pin connection to a usb port. Usb drives will not work. But other items such as usb keyboards, media card readers,
ect.
The way that "USB Disk" works is that it lets you use the free space as storage.
Once it is setup you can transfer files from your computer to your ipad going through Itunes.

Dropbox is more what your looking for. It is cloud storage.


----------



## falcarrion

Johnny3D3D said:


> Do I have to use official iPad apps or am I able to install other things?  In a previous message I mentioned that I'd prefer to not use iTunes.



You would have to jailbreak the unit.


----------



## Fast Learner

falcarrion said:


> You would have to jailbreak the unit.




You can install anything on the entire App Store over WiFi with the App Store app and never run iTunes once. No need for iTunes _except_ when you first set up the device.

Mind you, if you don't sync with iTunes now and then, your data won't be backed up and you won't get OS updates. This is the single biggest limitation of iOS for me, and I look forward to it changing.


----------



## John Crichton

The bottom line is that it's still an Apple iDevice with all the proprietary software and limitations that they've had for years.  I'm not saying this is preventing me from buying one it's just a statement of fact.


----------



## falcarrion

Check out this you tube video

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnM8ciByJps]YouTube - Wireless Mirroring With An iPad 2[/ame]


----------



## John Crichton

Wireless HDMI rocks.  I can't wait to get a laptop with that built-in!


----------



## Argyle King

falcarrion said:


> You can get an adapter that makes the 30 pin connection to a usb port. Usb drives will not work. But other items such as usb keyboards, media card readers,
> ect.
> The way that "USB Disk" works is that it lets you use the free space as storage.
> Once it is setup you can transfer files from your computer to your ipad going through Itunes.
> 
> Dropbox is more what your looking for. It is cloud storage.





I don't think that's what I'd want.  Cloud storage is fine for (I imagine) most people, but I'd rather be able to just plug my tablet into one of my drives and get what I want.  If I can't, that's a pretty big black mark on my eyes.

Hearing that I'd have to sync up with iTunes is a bit of a buzzkill too.  I'd rather not .

I think I'll just wait for the other tablets to catch up.


----------



## nedjer

The tablet you buy now will be significantly more expensive and less powerful than the tablet you buy once Android enters the market properly. Sony, Toshiba, LG and several others haven't been able to go for mass production until the OS became tablet ready. Now they can develop with the finished OS it'll be lower price points exactly along the lines of Android phones v's iPhones. It's also rumoured the Android tablets have a killer app, along the lines of a working alarm clock.


----------



## Janx

John Crichton said:


> The bottom line is that it's still an Apple iDevice with all the proprietary software and limitations that they've had for years.  I'm not saying this is preventing me from buying one it's just a statement of fact.




So was my atari 2600....

Some of those propietary limitations keep jerks from wrecking my propietary device.

The real artificial limitations are:
There's some apps we're not going to get
Moving data in and out is klugey

I call these artificial limitations because It is simply Apple's choice to be this way, rather than any actual limitation i. The software or hardware.

Overall i can live with those limits on my iphone and my ipad.

Reports i got from relatively neutral folks who have owned both android and ithing says android ui sucks.  Not unexpected given google's lackluster ui trackrecord compared to apple  writing the book on ui.


----------



## Janx

Johnny3D3D said:


> Do I have to use official iPad apps or am I able to install other things?  In a previous message I mentioned that I'd prefer to not use iTunes.
> 
> 
> Also, how hardware/software intensive is it to adapt iPad to USB output?  I don't want to buy one just to find out that I need a bunch of 'official' iPad material just to be able to perform simple functions.
> 
> Some of the alternatives do have the ports and such that I want; however, they cost more and give me less memory and computing power from what I can gather from online comparisons of the specs.




All ithings have to dock with itunes once to initialize. After that, i only dock to update firmware or to share apps with our iphones or ipad.

Without custom fw (jailbreak) you can only run apps from apple app store. Which u can download direct on your ipad.

You can use usb/bluetooth keyboard. Dont know about mouse.

You can also route your video to a tv or monitor (vga or hdmi).

You can also connect to your camera. Guitar, music keyboard.

You cant access usb storage.

The variety of apps available should cover most needs (not all).

Not sureof yourmeaning in your last statement.

Thanks to the chap who answered my android questions.  I can post via myipad, but not see prior posts while posting


----------



## Banshee16

Janx said:


> Reports i got from relatively neutral folks who have owned both android and ithing says android ui sucks.  Not unexpected given google's lackluster ui trackrecord compared to apple  writing the book on ui.




I haven't tried Android devices, but I can say that, IMO, the iPhone is cool....but I wouldn't say it's just outright "better" than every other device.

Yes, it was the first really good touch smartphone.  But touch is overrated at times, as is Apple's way of doing things.

I've got both a Blackberry Bold and an iPhone.  Frankly, each have their own advantages.  And I wasn't even using the security aspects of the Bold.  The iPhone is definitely more prestigious.  And there are a tonne of apps.  But when you look at the store, there is also a  heck of a lot of duplication.  How many fart apps do we need?

The idevice is a better portable computer...definitely.  Personally, I find it inferior as a phone and messaging device.  The spelling auto correction sucks.  Typing can be a pain by comparison.  Surfing the web is fun with fingers on a touch screen.  Until you start accidentally clicking links by touching them while trying to pinch to zoom, or scroll a page up and down, and then you have to waste time waiting to reload the previous screen, to get back to what you were trying to look at.  Bluetooth doesn't work nearly as well.  Worked perfectly with the Ford Sync system in our Escape with our Blackberries.  Doesn't work half as well with the iPhone.  Disconnects, refuses to stream music correctly.  Geeze....I've got to plug the darn thing into the car's USB port with a cable to play music.  I could just stick my Blackberry in the cup holder or glove box and it would stream away.  Look  ma, no wires!  How about not needing to buy extra apps to be able to conduct a text search of a webpage?

Does it play music better than a Blackberry?  Not really.  The interface to select and play music is snazzier, but if you spend much time looking at it, you'll drain your battery. 

And yes, the battery.  My Blackberry has gone a week between charges, with regular use.  My iPhone might last a day.

I think there's largely room for all three types of device.  Owning two of the three types, I'm convinced a bit part of Apple's allure is that "it's cool to own one", rather than that they are so much ahead of the competition.

I suspect things will be the same way with tablets.  Apple was there first, and enough people buy into the marketing that they'll be a dominant device, regardless of the quality of some of the competitors.

Banshee


----------



## John Crichton

Janx said:


> Reports i got from relatively neutral folks who have owned both android and ithing says android ui sucks.  Not unexpected given google's lackluster ui trackrecord compared to apple  writing the book on ui.



Both my Droid phone and iPod touch's interfaces are just fine.  At the moment I prefer Android.  I have no idea how this will play out with tablets as I will only be owning an iPad 2 soon and not a Droid tablet until the finish playing catch-up.


----------



## Hand of Evil

One of the biggest issues with the Android OS (Linux) is that is not the same from unit to unit.  Different makers of phones and tablets are using different parts of the OS or even changing the code.  Add to that, mix-match of parts.  

Apple is a closed system, no one but apple changes it.

History repeats itself, Windows vs Mac; where windows is blamed for issues with PC makers hardware.    Now it is Android vs Apple OS and the Android OS is getting blamed for tablet's hardware configuration.


----------



## John Crichton

I have no problem with the different flavors of Android.  It allows upgrades and tweaks which means options.  That's a good thing.


----------



## Hand of Evil

John Crichton said:


> I have no problem with the different flavors of Android.  It allows upgrades and tweaks which means options.  That's a good thing.




yes it is.  It is I just don't know that the market of the tablet will like that or not, as most of the tablets seem to be coming from the phone carriers.  The users aren't that geek, sure they like bright and shinny but it is amazing how little most of them know about their devices.


----------



## teach

Zaukrie said:


> After surfing the web, video watching is my next most likely use....like yogajournaltv (flash), espn3.com (flash), and a bunch of other flash sites. I know, someday flash wont' matter, but you know what, it does now.
> 
> THAT is why I don't own an iPad.
> 
> And, I really want to see what the android tablets are doing by this summer....




Hey Zaukrie, did you see the Nook Color is getting flash in April?  I'm really hopeful that espn3.com plays on that device, I might have to try and pick one up if it does.


----------



## Hand of Evil

OT - did you hear Samsung has been installing root kits on their laptops!!!


----------



## John Crichton

Hand of Evil said:


> yes it is.  It is I just don't know that the market of the tablet will like that or not, as most of the tablets seem to be coming from the phone carriers.  The users aren't that geek, sure they like bright and shinny but it is amazing how little most of them know about their devices.



There will always be folks who are clueless.  However, most folks that are getting in on tablets early are going to be more tech savvy than not.  Early adopters usually are.


----------



## nedjer

All versions of Android prior to 3.0 Honeycomb weren't even designed for tablets and their displays. 3.0 is designed to deliver on touch tablets and does just as good a job as the iPhone and iPad, and in some ways significantly better.

The only real difference in what Apple offers is that they maintain their systems at premium price points. You'll get a perfectly good Android phone or tablet at a much lower cost, but the components are unlikely to be as good. 

There'll also be a separate Android range at the Apple price level, with better components. Most of these things even come off the same production line, before being cased and badged.

For many the difference in components won't even come-up. For others it'll matter and they'll spend more/ get picky. Takes me back to the, now funny, day a mate put a £400 graphics card into a PC with a 250W power supply.


----------



## falcarrion

Hand of Evil said:


> OT - did you hear Samsung has been installing root kits on their laptops!!!




I too read this earlier. But it has now been reported that it is a false reading of the antivirus software.


----------



## falcarrion

I read yesterday that there are less then 100 android apps optimized for tablets.
Can the people here who have the Galaxy tabs and the Xooms verifiy this?
Also have you used your android tablets in a game yet?


----------



## Banshee16

Hand of Evil said:


> One of the biggest issues with the Android OS (Linux) is that is not the same from unit to unit.  Different makers of phones and tablets are using different parts of the OS or even changing the code.  Add to that, mix-match of parts.
> 
> Apple is a closed system, no one but apple changes it.
> 
> History repeats itself, Windows vs Mac; where windows is blamed for issues with PC makers hardware.    Now it is Android vs Apple OS and the Android OS is getting blamed for tablet's hardware configuration.




You say that like it's a bad thing.  It's a matter of choice.  Apple, as a company, make choices about how their devices work, how their OS works etc.  Because it's a closed system, if you don't find their choices convenient, you have to go elsewhere.

Simple things like....Flash.  On a PC, if you want Flash, it's your choice.  Yes, it can slow things down....but as the consumer, it's your choice to do so.  Apple says "we believe in X, you as the consumer don't need X, hence we won't allow you to use X".

If someone's ok with those limitations, fine.  Personally, I hope Google kicks Apple's butt .  I'm in favour of choice rather than artificial limitations.

Banshee


----------



## Relique du Madde

falcarrion said:


> I read yesterday that there are less then 100 android apps optimized for tablets.
> Can the people here who have the Galaxy tabs and the Xooms verifiy this?
> Also have you used your android tablets in a game yet?




It's really hard to say since the android market doesn't have a Honeycomb section that holds every tablet app (a major drawback with the current version of the store).  However, the store does have a section that contains 50 featured tablet apps, which might be why people say that there are "only 100" Honeycomb apps.

 I should mentioned that Honeycomb optimization is a tricky benchmark issue.   This is because there are so many ways one can optimized an app for Honeycomb that it can make your head spin.  First off, there's fragments which allow an app to use two activities* within the same app at once (multitaxing ftw!), but require some programming and layout work to get right.  Then there is the poor-man's version of doing optimization which is making a new layout that takes advantage of the added screen real estate.

Since I only do PBP I actually have actually tried using my Xoom it in a game per say. Since I didn't want to flip back and forth between two browser windows/tabs (the post and the rogues gallery), and a word doc, 2 books/pdfs (for reference) I placed the word doc on my Xoom used half of my laptop's screen for the rogues gallery, half for the post, then pulled out my books to do quick rule checks (I could have used two pdf versions). 

I've also used my Xoom to do some type up a npc's character sheet when I was away from my laptop. 


* Some Programming jargon.  An android activity is an app component that provides a screen (view) which the user can interact with.  The most basic  form of an activity is a typical screen that saids "hello world". A fragment is like an activity on steroids.  They allow you to attach multiple activities to one screen. One way I have seen this used was to provide a windows styled file manager.


----------



## Zaukrie

As Teach knows, I have a Nook Color. It is quite nice as an e-reader and for a few other things. For browsing, it can be a tad small with my fat fingers, but it is much better now that you can zoom more.

I look forward to the next Nook update. I think if it really supports flash, much of my "need" for a bigger device goes away.

But, bigger is better for pdf and general surfing and typing.


----------



## falcarrion

Zaukrie said:


> As Teach knows, I have a Nook Color. It is quite nice as an e-reader and for a few other things. For browsing, it can be a tad small with my fat fingers, but it is much better now that you can zoom more.
> 
> I look forward to the next Nook update. I think if it really supports flash, much of my "need" for a bigger device goes away.
> 
> But, bigger is better for pdf and general surfing and typing.




Have you tried a pdf of a character sheet on it?

What kind of things are you able to do with it besides read books?

I haven't checked out a Nook and am just curious.


----------



## Hand of Evil

Banshee16 said:


> You say that like it's a bad thing.




It has it pros and cons - ran into one this week; we changed over Outlook to 2010 this last weekend, this changed the settings on all ActiveSync devices (Apple OS and Droid OS).  HTC Droid phones do not support all the freatures and as such stopped recieving email, Droid X's did not sync contacts, Galaxy's just recieved emails, no calendar or contacts.  Everyone but HTC had a download to fix the issues but walking users through it! Freaking nightmare.


----------



## Banshee16

Hand of Evil said:


> It has it pros and cons - ran into one this week; we changed over Outlook to 2010 this last weekend, this changed the settings on all ActiveSync devices (Apple OS and Droid OS).  HTC Droid phones do not support all the freatures and as such stopped recieving email, Droid X's did not sync contacts, Galaxy's just recieved emails, no calendar or contacts.  Everyone but HTC had a download to fix the issues but walking users through it! Freaking nightmare.




Oh, it can be a pain.....but closed systems can be as well.

Pick your poison, I guess.  Nobody's built the perfect system yet...neither Bill Gates or Steve Jobs.

Banshee


----------



## Relique du Madde

For everyone who complains about the fragmentation of android, Google has announced that they will be locking down an android licensing and will be adding in some device and software base requirements.


----------



## Fast Learner

nedjer said:


> You'll get a perfectly good Android phone or tablet at a much lower cost



This hasn't proven true so far in the tablet world.



> There'll also be a separate Android range at the Apple price level, with better components. Most of these things even come off the same production line, before being cased and badged.



Really? I don't see this at all. Apple has worked exceedingly hard to ensure that they have a lock on essential components.


----------



## Hand of Evil

Relique du Madde said:


> For everyone who complains about the fragmentation of android, Google has announced that they will be locking down an android licensing and will be adding in some device and software base requirements.




which makes it sound as if they are going to be getting in on the app market.


----------



## Kobold Avenger

I don't view the tablets as getting quite there yet.  If they're going to become anything significant and not be something extra you don't need, they need to get better processors and more power.

Honeycomb looks good, but I know it's not "complete" yet as Google admitted they rushed it out.  Still the future is Android.


----------



## Umbran

Fast Learner said:


> This hasn't proven true so far in the tablet world.




Well, the the tablet world is still young - the Android tablet world younger still.  These developments take some time, you know.


----------



## renau1g

And the Playbook hasn't even been released. I'll be very interested in this one, both as a Canadian and a supplier of services to RIM, to see if they can capture the Enterprise market as they have with their BB's.


----------



## Glade Riven

Well, I'm enjoying my Intuos 4...

Oh, wait, not that kind of tablet. Apple, Android, or Windows...tablets aren't where I need them to be to do what I want with them. Sure, web browsing and ebooks around the house on a screen larger than my G2 would be handy, but not worth the price any company wants me to pay right now.


----------



## Janx

Fast Learner said:


> This hasn't proven true so far in the tablet world.
> 
> 
> Really? I don't see this at all. Apple has worked exceedingly hard to ensure that they have a lock on essential components.




What the prior quoted  post refers to is that foxconn is building apple and other products on the same assembly line.

I have had to wait at inventec untill the dell boxes cleared the belts so we could go on the floor to watch as our boxes started coming in. They keep vendors seperated, but its the same belts


----------



## Fast Learner

Janx said:


> What the prior quoted  post refers to is that foxconn is building apple and other products on the same assembly line.




I understand that. I was referring to the way that last year Apple bought the majority of the year's future production of flash RAM just before they released the iPad so that (a) they could keep a lock on the price if the iPad took off and they needed to produce a ton of iPads, and (b) any potential competitors would be effectively unable to purchase enough RAM to make any real quantity of tablets.

This year they pre-purchased over 60% of the screen manufacturing capacity in Asia for the same reasons, including investing large chunks of money in those companies so they could expand production and produce new screens of the quality and capacity that Apple is looking for.

Because they sit on a huge pile of cash, Apple has the ability to pre-purchase bilions of dollars of _future_ production in order to stay in the lead. Due to simple cutthroatefficient business practices it will be a real challenge for tablet competitors to come out with anything cheaper or of higher quality, especially in any real quantity. That they all come off the same assembly lines is, in this case, a serious disadvantage for competitors.


----------



## falcarrion

The funny thing is the other companies had a chance to buy the screens and either bought small or failed to buy at all. No wonder certain ceo's are being let go. It's not like the Ipad wasn't sucsseful last year. And this year Apple can't keep up with the demand.  Every where you go the Ipad 2 is sold out and ordering online it will take 3 to 4 weeks. No other tablet out on the market right now have sales even close to the Ipad 2. Until the other makers can close the gap. Apple will stay on top.


----------



## nedjer

The others didn't buy the stock, much of which comes through their usual contractors or themselves, because they didn't have a tablet ready OS. 

When Samsung has a product design, an operating system and enough apps, it'll get it's own flash memory fabrication to turn out the chips. Much as it, and others, are starting to.

A £200 iPad2 'beater' will be out within a year - it's more than likely to run Android 3 and have Micro SD storage. Unless more earthquakes or unpleasantness in Korea tanks the fabrication facilities.


----------



## falcarrion

I found this the other day and thought some of you might be interested in this app. "Line of Sight Checker "


----------



## Relique du Madde

Kobold Avenger said:


> I don't view the tablets as getting quite there yet.  If they're going to become anything significant and not be something extra you don't need, they need to get better processors and more power.
> 
> Honeycomb looks good, but I know it's not "complete" yet as Google admitted they rushed it out.  Still the future is Android.




You know, I hate how people always say that.  How complete is it supposed to be?  AS is it beats Froyo and Gingerbread.  To say it's incomplete then you'll have to say that android is incomplete...  

Though, I have to say.. Xoom was/is incomplete, but I think that's mostly on Motorola (did they even do the micro sd update yet?) and Adobe (Flash beta isn't as cool as normal flash).


----------



## Janx

Relique du Madde said:


> You know, I hate how people always say that.  How complete is it supposed to be?  AS is it beats Froyo and Gingerbread.  To say it's incomplete then you'll have to say that android is incomplete...
> 
> Though, I have to say.. Xoom was/is incomplete, but I think that's mostly on Motorola (did they even do the micro sd update yet?) and Adobe (Flash beta isn't as cool as normal flash).




What does "complete" mean?

If Apple was less blocky of apps (no porn or malware) that would probably open the door quite a bit to features you wish you had.

Apple could provide a solution so IT shops can load internal apps onto their iPads.  Solving that business problem.

Who needs an SD card when you can transfer files in and out over wireless?

I'm not anti-Android (though I'm not a fan of the idea of it yet).  My Droid phone should be arriving today to replace my dead BB.


----------



## Fast Learner

Janx said:


> Apple could provide a solution so IT shops can load internal apps onto their iPads.  Solving that business problem.




This already exists, in the form of Apple's enterprise development program. Shops can install internally, develop and distribute internally, do pretty much whatever they'd want, since it doesn't go through the App Store.

It's quite popular, too.


----------



## Relique du Madde

Janx said:


> What does "complete" mean?




That's the problem.  From the iFan it means something akin to either "It has all the apps I have on my iDevice and allows me to sync to my apple products" or "Steve Jobs has to admit it is equal or superior to the most current iOS product".  So basically something that apple doesn't want any nonapple device to do because once Windows Mobile 7 and Android gains access to iTunes it would be game over.

Personally, when I think of the word complete (in tech terms) I think "Dead."  Why?  Because if you consider a product complete it means you are not going to make future versions of it and you will never improve it to react to the changing market, hacking attempts, bugs, or technological advances/changes.
  Do you know what OS is "complete"?  Symbian even thought it is now considered "open sourced".  Do you know what device is "complete"? Zune because Microsoft has decided to make Zune into a software only application/purchasing platform that is integrated into windows environment rather then a stand alone music player.





> If Apple was less blocky of apps (no porn or malware) that would probably open the door quite a bit to features you wish you had.
> 
> Apple could provide a solution so IT shops can load internal apps onto their iPads.  Solving that business problem.



They won't because a good portion of the billions they make each year comes through their app store and people having to fork over money whenever they get something on their iDevice or through the app itself.

However, it should be noted that alternate stores do exist... though some only if you jail brake the iDevice.  But even then, Apple likes to cease and desist when they see something from a major player that breaks their "rules".
  For instance apple just forced Toyota to close an app they have been propagating on iJailBroken stores and alternate sources because it was essential an ad for scion which didn't go through iAd.  I bet they also threatened to kick Toyota (and the adfirm) out of the walled garden if they didn't pull the app, which Toyota did.  So yeah... apple became their 1984 superbowl ad's "evil computing empire."



> Who needs an SD card when you can transfer files in and out over wireless?



From what I could tell, the SD card really exists for those times when you are far from a network that you can sync through or have not paid for the ability to use your phones wireless hot spot or have not rooted/jailbroken your phone so you could use the hotspot without your carrier butting in.


----------



## Janx

Fast Learner said:


> This already exists, in the form of Apple's enterprise development program. Shops can install internally, develop and distribute internally, do pretty much whatever they'd want, since it doesn't go through the App Store.
> 
> It's quite popular, too.




That's useful info.  I hadn't research the topic.  Folks have asked me "why don't you make an iThing app?" and my general view is, do you really want the app that accesses your business data sitting on a public storefront for just anybody to download and attempt to login to?

Technically, the EDP solves that.  Though my next barrier is, do I really want to fork off a dev team to learn and master that platform, when I can just write a web-app that everybbody can code for?  I choose the latter.

Case in point, I've one client who wants to buy iPads for all his sales guys, so they can get sales data and handle orders in the field.  At $500 a pop, I'm inclined to hope an Android tablet of lesser price and decent quality (what care I what other apps it has, I only want the browser to not suck and the internet to be fast).

On relique's comment.  I kind of asssume the other guy meant "complete" to mean features that Apple didn't do on purpose that another vendor could get away with.

I have plenty of room on my 16GB iPad with just WiFi.  Don't need an SD card.  I think some folks want it for the "just in case" scenario.  Or for practical transferring of data.

I do wish Apple were a bit more practical with getting data in and out.  It's understandable that each application is effectively buffered from each other.  But why do I have to email myself a Word document to work on it in Pages?
If Google Docs came out with a proper client app, they'd nail that little problem.

I also don't like that Apple has blocked certain apps on the basis that it competes with their own product line.  Amazon snuck their Kindle reader in, but Sony was too late with their E Reader app.

When my Droid finally gets here (missed it at Lunch, so I have to wait another day for Fedex), I reckon I'll see what the Android can and can't do for me in practical terms.  I do know I'll get my Sony Reader so I can read the last Dresden Files short story anthology my wife bought.


----------



## Fast Learner

Relique du Madde said:


> For instance apple just forced Toyota to close an app they have been propagating on iJailBroken stores and alternate sources because it was essential an ad for scion which didn't go through iAd.  I bet they also threatened to kick Toyota (and the adfirm) out of the walled garden if they didn't pull the app, which Toyota did.



That's your assumption about why they pressured Toyota (well, it's an assumption on everyone's part that they even _did_ pressure Toyota, but it's certainly very likely). My assumption is that Toyota advertising in the jailbreak ecosystem implied legitimacy of that ecosystem, something Apple certainly doesn't want.



Janx said:


> Though my next barrier is, do I really want to fork off a dev team to learn and master that platform, when I can just write a web-app that everybbody can code for?  I choose the latter.



In many circumstances that's a great solution. Where that doesn't work is (a) extensive offline use, (b) a need to access a variety of lower level device functionality, and (c) when you want native-app speed. Still, Mobile Safari is a very good web browser and works well for web apps.



> Case in point, I've one client who wants to buy iPads for all his sales guys, so they can get sales data and handle orders in the field.  At $500 a pop, I'm inclined to hope an Android tablet of lesser price and decent quality (what care I what other apps it has, I only want the browser to not suck and the internet to be fast).



Also keep battery life in mind, which is especially important for people like salesfolk. It often surprises people that the 10-hour battery life claim of the iPad is actually accurate, that the device can be, for example, streaming full-screen video for 10 straight hours. In practice it means that even after a long day of using my iPad in what seems like nearly all the time, I'm still never in danger of having to find power. Most (all?) of the current Android tablets don't have that kind of extensive life, though there's no good reason they couldn't; it's just good engineering and component quality.


----------



## Relique du Madde

Fast Learner said:


> That's your assumption about why they pressured Toyota (well, it's an assumption on everyone's part that they even _did_ pressure Toyota, but it's certainly very likely). My assumption is that Toyota advertising in the jailbreak ecosystem implied legitimacy of that ecosystem, something Apple certainly doesn't want.




Sorry, to break it to you, the "jail broken" and "rooted" ecosystem is entirely lawful and legitimate as per this 9th circuit court of appeals decision. (TLDR; "Jailbreaking is lawful because apple does not own your phone and they do not claim they are leasing it or the operating system to you.  Also, Jailbraking does violate copyrights due to the fair use doctrine, however it does still void your warranty..).

However, it should be noted that Apple has said they will to black list companies from the iStore for various slights.  So yes, I'm certain they told Toyota and their marketing patterns to C&D or be risk being banned from the garden and having their ads and apps yanked from iOSphere.  Sadly, for a company who is hurting as bad as Toyota, having their coolness downgraded by their lack of Apple exposure would be suicidal.


----------



## John Crichton

Jailbreaking anything is a pain in the butt. Probably best to just leave it out of these types of conversations when comparing products and such.


----------



## Janx

To FastLearner's comment about offline use:
The need for offline use is generally constrained to what I consider productivity or general purpose apps.  A word processor, PDF reader, etc.

At the business app category, this is stuff accessing the corporate databases to view current orders, enter in new orders, etc.  Imagine your banking program.  Pretty useless without a live connection to your records.  And the scale of data is not such that you would copy it down to the client.

Though a dedicated app can still have benefit (not having to transmit UI content and data content), Generally, you need to be online to use a business app.

Also, like your bank program, this stuff is generally secure, and only for direct customers or employees.  Not the general public ordering books from amazon.com

On the topic of jailbreaking:
I have no clue why Toyota bothered with doing a jailbroke app.  It would have been just as easy to publish on AppStore and based on all the other vendor crApps, it would have been approved.

I also agree with Crighton on the merit of Jailbreaking as it concerns the product.  It's a technical process, that narrows the % of the market willing to do it, or even concerned with it.

As it is, the arguments on why Android is better smells more like NerdRage with Apple, as the people making those arguments tend to be the same people willing to jailbreak or mod their phones.  Normal people don't care about that stuff.


----------



## catsclaw227

Interesting article about the rise in popularity of the Android phones and iOS based devices.

CHART OF THE DAY: Android Blows Past iPhone -- Even If You Include iPod Touch


----------



## Fast Learner

Relique du Madde said:


> Sorry, to break it to you, the "jail broken" and "rooted" ecosystem is entirely lawful and legitimate as per this 9th circuit court of appeals decision.



You're confusing my use of the term "legitimize" with any implication that it's otherwise illegal. If major advertisers were supporting jailbreak apps or sites the _general public_ would be more inclined to perceive them as a good idea, something Apple doesn't want. Toyota would make jailbreaking seem like a legitimate -- "in accordance with established or accepted patterns and standards" -- way to use your phone.

FWIW, there's very little information in this arena that you would "break" to me: this is my profession. I spend hours a day reading news and analysis, and more hours a day advising my clients on mobile strategy and tactics. I well-understand the legal issues surrounding jailbreaking and even helped one client with the development and publishing of an app to Cydia, though only at his insistence (it has not proven to be financially viable, as the market is too small).


----------



## Fast Learner

Janx said:


> The need for offline use is generally constrained to what I consider productivity or general purpose apps.  A word processor, PDF reader, etc.
> 
> At the business app category, this is stuff accessing the corporate databases to view current orders, enter in new orders, etc.  Imagine your banking program.  Pretty useless without a live connection to your records.  And the scale of data is not such that you would copy it down to the client.




I think it's more nuanced than that. I've designed and developed multiple mobile applications where having a subset of the data on the device in situations where you don't have a connection is extremely valuable. Many order-placing applications, for example, don't require live access to inventory. Being able to review recent orders from clients and related information while on a plane is great, as another example, and live background syncing while the device does have connectivity can keep the data sufficiently fresh.

One enterprise app I designed and developed (for Windows Mobile, a few years back) was for a company that made deals at construction worksites, commonly out in the sticks where a connection was far from guaranteed. Despite the fact that a lot of what the salesman needed to know was live data, because it was a native app I was able to store enough information on each device to allow the salesforce to have reasonable certainty when making deals.

Of course I absolutely agree that there are many situations where a connection is vital, and that a web app/access is an excellent solution. I'm simply noting that there are many more valuable uses for a native app than productivity or general use. You might be surprised what clever data caching can do.


----------



## John Crichton

Okay, finally have my iPad 2 in hand.  Time to get informed!


----------



## falcarrion

catsclaw227 said:


> Interesting article about the rise in popularity of the Android phones and iOS based devices.
> 
> CHART OF THE DAY: Android Blows Past iPhone -- Even If You Include iPod Touch




Now if you compared the Ipad 1 and 2 vs the all the android tablet devices,
IOS is blowing away android tablet by an extremely large margin. The estamates so far since official number haven't been posted yet. Is that the ipad2 has sold so far about 2 million units, where as the Xoom has only sold 100,000.

Xoom released around Feb 24
Ipad2 released March 11

Here is an article on the Clorox company and there experiance with the Iphone.
News | iLounge


----------



## John Crichton

One thing is already annoying me is the lack of CBS full eps.  ABC has their own app for it.  The other major networks need to get on the ball with that, Flash or no Flash.


----------



## Janx

falcarrion said:


> Now if you compared the Ipad 1 and 2 vs the all the android tablet devices,
> IOS is blowing away android tablet by an extremely large margin. The estamates so far since official number haven't been posted yet. Is that the ipad2 has sold so far about 2 million units, where as the Xoom has only sold 100,000.
> 
> Xoom released around Feb 24
> Ipad2 released March 11
> 
> Here is an article on the Clorox company and there experiance with the Iphone.
> News | iLounge




15 years ago or so, I postulated that if Apple was one of 10 big computer companies, they would hold about 10% of the market.  I then looked it up, and lo and behold, thats about what they had.

Apple's iPhone was sold only through AT&T.  That's a narrow pipe (of which they did well).  Getting the VW business surely helps.  Android is on ALL the carriers.  They ought to have a majority, they have more carriers and more models of phones.

My experience says the BB os sucks and thus they will diminish.  The PalmOS, what little time I had helping somebody with one, also sucked.  Windows has always had a slow OS, maybe Mobile7 can turn it around.

Android is definitely giving a run for the money.  I suspect it will always be Android vs. iOS and the others are just background noise. Android is doing for the cell phone, what Microsoft did for the PC.

Who knows.  I just got my DroidX from Verizon.  It gets a little warm on the bottom when downloading apps and stuff.

And I reckon there's a use for when I plugged it into my PC, it mounted as a drive.

Now can I:
edit Word or Excel documents (maybe with google Docs?)
RDP into a PC
Access my email from Exchange outside the firewall (oddly enough only my BB did that right via OWA).


----------



## falcarrion

John Crichton said:


> Okay, finally have my iPad 2 in hand.  Time to get informed!




Which version did you get?


----------



## John Crichton

falcarrion said:


> Which version did you get?



64gb Wi-Fi Black.  3G not needed.  If we find that we use it that much we'll get another down the line.

Loving the smart cover.


----------



## falcarrion

John Crichton said:


> 64gb Wi-Fi Black.  3G not needed.  If we find that we use it that much we'll get another down the line.
> 
> Loving the smart cover.




Have you looked at the AViiQ case that the smart cover will work with?

There also is one from XGear.


----------



## John Crichton

falcarrion said:


> Have you looked at the AViiQ case that the smart cover will work with?
> 
> There also is one from XGear.



Nope.

At the moment I don't it leaving the house much.  And the smartcover works great for my needs as a stand.


----------



## falcarrion

the cover I mention only cover the back of the unit. Protecting the back from scratches etc..


----------



## Relique du Madde

FastLearner,

This is also my profession, however I look at it from a pure development rather then the marketing (aim for the $$) pov.  

For this reason I look to the horizon and realize that apple is not the end all be all of experiences, which is sadly what alot of media tends to do since they only plan for the short term and adjust when they see a new potential revinue stream.  Like it or not, Android is the invisible giant, and sadly not many seem to realize the potential that lies in multiplatform development and instead are banking that people keep buying onto the iTrend until it becomes as passe as a walkman.

When that day comes, I will not be surprised when a runner runs into the room holding a sledge hammer then proceeds to smash a giant screen with Steve Jobs face in it.  But until that day comes I will do what many developers do: adapt.


----------



## Relique du Madde

Someone needs to smack Sanjay Jhu in the face.  As far as CEOs are concerned he's the worse planner EVER. 

Motorola *JUST* announced a 16gb Xoom Wifi and 16gb Xoom 3g/4g today.  Someone shoudl have taught him something about sales when he was recruited from QualComm's R&D department.


----------



## IronWolf

I finally picked up a tablet as well.  1st generation 32GB WiFi iPad from the Verizon store discounts.  Would have been happy with a 16GB but they were sold out of those.  I had been hoping for an android tab but nothing seemed to come into a price range I wanted with the features I wanted.  So for this time around I decided not to fight the flow and went with the iPad.

I like it so far.  Makes reading my Paizo PDFs very easy and easy to keep with me as well.  I have an init tracker for game night which is cool.  Non-obtrusive browser access at the game is col as well for PFSRD access for fast rule lookups.  Still getting used to the keyboard, but not too bad for an onscreen keyboard.

My biggest disappointment so far s simply the lack of an ad blocker in the browser.  I tend to use an ad blocker and element hider to deeply customize certain websites for a more pleasant browsing experience.  Small gripe though for the other things the tab brings to the table.


----------



## falcarrion

No matter which you like android or IOS. It will be the consumer who decides which will be at the top. The battle between tablets will go on until something better comes along to replace the tablet.
 Some people complain about the lack of memory on the Ipad. This will lead to new and creative ways of tranfering data. For instanst I can forsee memory cubes that you just need to touch to the screen or be reconzied by the camera. Then be able to transfer the data. No need to plug in or have special slots to do it. Touch, transfer, done. Can this be done? Yes, it already has been done with some cameras and other things. It is only a matter of time before you start seeing this type of tech in tablets.


----------



## John Crichton

falcarrion said:


> No matter which you like android or IOS. It will be the consumer who decides which will be at the top. The battle between tablets will go on until something better comes along to replace the tablet.
> Some people complain about the lack of memory on the Ipad. This will lead to new and creative ways of tranfering data. For instanst I can forsee memory cubes that you just need to touch to the screen or be reconzied by the camera. Then be able to transfer the data. No need to plug in or have special slots to do it. Touch, transfer, done. Can this be done? Yes, it already has been done with some cameras and other things. It is only a matter of time before you start seeing this type of tech in tablets.



Tech along those lines isn't fantasy anymore but it's nowhere close to being available to the public at an affordable price.


----------



## falcarrion

John Crichton said:


> Tech along those lines isn't fantasy anymore but it's nowhere close to being available to the public at an affordable price.




I disagree.  We right now have the Eye-fi Wi-fi cards for cameras. 

The Eye-Fi card: the only memory card with Endless Memory | Eye-Fi


----------



## John Crichton

falcarrion said:


> I disagree.  We right now have the Eye-fi Wi-fi cards for cameras.
> 
> The Eye-Fi card: the only memory card with Endless Memory | Eye-Fi



How is that something you can touch to a screen to transfer data?


----------



## falcarrion

First lets look at the A.R. Drone. The A.R. drone generates it's own wifi network.
Thus you can use it anywhere you want.

Second lets look at the seagate D.A.V.E. This unit shows that wifi hard drives are possable.

Third we can look at fiducials. These are markers that can be reconized by a camera lens. Take a look how the microsoft surface can reconize an object placed on it.

Then there is the app to control the transfer.

touch was just something I threw out there.

Now if your intrested in a personal cloud solution. You might want to check out the POGOPLUG. You take this unit attach a external drive, and  you connect to the Ipad through wifi. So a wifi connection is needed. So it is possable to have a terabyte of cloud storage for the price of the pogoplug unit and the hard drive.


----------



## John Crichton

falcarrion said:


> First lets look at the A.R. Drone. The A.R. drone generates it's own wifi network.
> Thus you can use it anywhere you want.
> 
> Second lets look at the seagate D.A.V.E. This unit shows that wifi hard drives are possable.
> 
> Third we can look at fiducials. These are markers that can be reconized by a camera lens. Take a look how the microsoft surface can reconize an object placed on it.
> 
> Then there is the app to control the transfer.
> 
> touch was just something I threw out there.
> 
> Now if your intrested in a personal cloud solution. You might want to check out the POGOPLUG. You take this unit attach a external drive, and  you connect to the Ipad through wifi. So a wifi connection is needed. So it is possable to have a terabyte of cloud storage for the price of the pogoplug unit and the hard drive.



Yes, these are all reasons why it's not fantasy.  How long until something is created that will be affordable is the problem.  5 years?  10 years?  That's a long time.


----------



## Fast Learner

If NFC becomes popular here (which is looking extremely likely) and the standards chosen by Apple, Google, etc. handle more than just payments (there are several NFC standards, most of which support more than payments), then you could have touch-based (or just "very-near-based") data transfer later this year.


----------



## John Crichton

Fast Learner said:


> If NFC becomes popular here (which is looking extremely likely) and the standards chosen by Apple, Google, etc. handle more than just payments (there are several NFC standards, most of which support more than payments), then you could have touch-based (or just "very-near-based") data transfer later this year.



Well, there are already cards that do that at gas stations (and the like) that do swipe payments.  That's something I'd like to see more of.  But also quite different than transferring music files and such.


----------



## Fast Learner

John Crichton said:


> Well, there are already cards that do that at gas stations (and the like) that do swipe payments.  That's something I'd like to see more of.  But also quite different than transferring music files and such.




It's not different at all, other than the fact that proximity cards are dumb while NFC (near field communication) objects are smart. They use the same basic technology (magnetic induction between two loop antennas) and NFC has a peer-to-peer mode for transferring data between two devices, supporting speed of 424 kbits/second (double that is available but not common). If that speed is insufficient, they can also be used to create near-instant bluetooth pairings to quintuple that.

It is very likely that Apple will have NFC in the iPhone 5 this fall. It's likely that they'll provide this kind of data transfer, at which point 3rd party manufacturers will hop all over it.


----------



## falcarrion

John Crichton said:


> Yes, these are all reasons why it's not fantasy.  How long until something is created that will be affordable is the problem.  5 years?  10 years?  That's a long time.




The wireless wifi hard drives already exsist.  Apple already has a couple that work with time Machince in Mac OS X Leopard.

Fiducials are already being used by Surface customers.

You could very well see this within the next year or two.


----------



## falcarrion

Look at what I just found.
AirStash: wireless flash drive + pocket media server + SD adapter for iPhone, iPod touch & iPad


----------



## John Crichton

Well and good.  I'll believe it when I see it and it's easy to use.  

Also, the lack of Flash is cheezing me off more than I thought it would on the iPad 2.  I play a decent amount of Dragon Age: Legends and it's a no go.  Yeesh.

However, I do love goodreader for PDFs.  Much faster rendering compared to iBooks.


----------



## IronWolf

John Crichton said:


> However, I do love goodreader for PDFs.  Much faster rendering compared to iBooks.




goodreader was one of the first things I bought for the iPad.  Great purchase makes my PDF collection the most useful it has ever been!


----------



## falcarrion

I have to agree on Goodreader. Though I do have another pdf reader so I can switch between the two if needed.


----------



## IronWolf

falcarrion said:


> I have to agree on Goodreader. Though I do have another pdf reader so I can switch between the two if needed.




Is Stanza the other one you are using?


----------



## falcarrion

IronWolf said:


> Is Stanza the other one you are using?




no. pdf pro


----------



## Fast Learner

Remember that iBooks will also display PDFs: if all I'm going to do is just read it and don't intend to make notes, bookmark it, etc., I sometimes use iBooks because the reading interface can be nicer (depending on the PDF format).

This is why I particularly love Dropbox: launch the app, grab a pdf out of your space in the cloud, and then send it to whatever app you'd like. No need for iTunes or anything else. Because Dropbox keeps a local copy (unless you tell it not to), if it turns out to not be a good pdf for the app you sent it to, you can simply send it to another. 

On my iPad Dropbox offers to send my pdfs to Pages, GoodReader, iBooks, Bluefire Reader, PlainText, iA Writer, and Textastic, since all of those apps have registered as things that can, in some way, display PDFs.


----------



## IronWolf

Dropbox is great.  It was good for between computer syncing and it is just as cool with the iPad.


----------



## John Crichton

iBooks renders PDFs way to slow for my liking.

On a different but similar topic I picked up Notes Plus today and used it in two meetings.  I like what I've seen so far.  We'll see how it goes when I get a stylus.  With any luck I'll be able to scrap paper notebooks at work.


----------



## IronWolf

John Crichton said:


> iBooks renders PDFs way to slow for my liking.
> 
> On a different but similar topic I picked up Notes Plus today and used it in two meetings.  I like what I've seen so far.  We'll see how it goes when I get a stylus.  With any luck I'll be able to scrap paper notebooks at work.




I have heard good things about Notes Plus, haven't picked it up myself.

I did pick up Atomic Web Browser.  Very much prefer it to Safari so far.


----------



## Banshee16

Does anyone have the Xoom?  I was looking at it at Future Shop today, and several features in it compared fairly favourably in comparison to the iPad 2.  I liked how the Home, back buttons etc. were interface buttons, as opposed to a physical button like on my iPhone.

I also liked the tabbed browser, and the ability to use Flash, which I tested with a few websites, that in turn didn't work well with the iPad, in terms of Flash not being supported.  I thought the interface itself was attractive as well.

However....reviewers have generally said the hardware is good, but the tablet was feature incomplete, due to missing support for various features (Flash, micro SD reader support), lack of apps etc.  But this was back in February.  And, it now being mid-April, Flash was definitely working on the copy I looked at.

If anyone has this tablet, I'm curious what it's like now.....has it improved significantly since launch date?  Unfortunately, reviewers seldom update their reviews after the fact.

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16

IronWolf said:


> I have heard good things about Notes Plus, haven't picked it up myself.
> 
> I did pick up Atomic Web Browser.  Very much prefer it to Safari so far.




I have Awesome Note, and it's pretty good.

Banshee


----------



## IronWolf

Banshee16 said:


> Does anyone have the Xoom?  I was looking at it at Future Shop today, and several features in it compared fairly favourably in comparison to the iPad 2.  I liked how the Home, back buttons etc. were interface buttons, as opposed to a physical button like on my iPhone.
> 
> I also liked the tabbed browser, and the ability to use Flash, which I tested with a few websites, that in turn didn't work well with the iPad, in terms of Flash not being supported.  I thought the interface itself was attractive as well.
> 
> However....reviewers have generally said the hardware is good, but the tablet was feature incomplete, due to missing support for various features (Flash, micro SD reader support), lack of apps etc.  But this was back in February.  And, it now being mid-April, Flash was definitely working on the copy I looked at.




I do not have a Xoom, but Consumer Reports is ranking the iPad2 at the top of the stack:

iPad 2 top tablet says Consumer Reports - SlashGear

They do rank the Xoom at the same level as a Gen1 iPad.

You can get tabbed browsing on the iPad, though you do it through a browser bought from the AppStore.  I am not a huge fan of flash, so I do not mind having it on m iPad.  I have seen mixed reviews of flash on the Android tablets so far, but no experience with it.


----------



## IronWolf

Banshee16 said:


> I have Awesome Note, and it's pretty good.
> 
> Banshee




I will have to check that one out.  Thanks!


----------



## John Crichton

Banshee16 said:


> I have Awesome Note, and it's pretty good.
> 
> Banshee



What do you like about it compared to other note taking apps?


----------



## Fast Learner

My favorites are:

*PlainText*: Continuous Dropbox syncing as you make changes to the document, which I love because I don't have to manually sync (or more likely, forget to).

*Textastic*: Programmer's text editor with extended keyboards (tabs, arrow keys, etc.), syntax highlighting for dozens of languages, FTP and Dropbox support, built-in WebDAV server, etc.

*Nebulous Notes*: Modifiable extended keyboard, Dropbox support, and (big for me) Markdown, Multi-Markdown, and HTML preview.


----------



## Relique du Madde

Banshee16 said:


> Does anyone have the Xoom?  I was looking at it at Future Shop today, and several features in it compared fairly favourably in comparison to the iPad 2.  I liked how the Home, back buttons etc. were interface buttons, as opposed to a physical button like on my iPhone.
> 
> I also liked the tabbed browser, and the ability to use Flash, which I tested with a few websites, that in turn didn't work well with the iPad, in terms of Flash not being supported.  I thought the interface itself was attractive as well.
> 
> However....reviewers have generally said the hardware is good, but the tablet was feature incomplete, due to missing support for various features (Flash, micro SD reader support), lack of apps etc.  But this was back in February.  And, it now being mid-April, Flash was definitely working on the copy I looked at.
> 
> If anyone has this tablet, I'm curious what it's like now.....has it improved significantly since launch date?  Unfortunately, reviewers seldom update their reviews after the fact.
> 
> Banshee




I have one.  It's a pretty good tablet.  I just personally wish that the android store had a better way of organizing apps so you know which ones are tablet apps.  (Only seeing a list of about 50 really bites).

I'm still pretty sure it doesn't have micro SD reader support yet (because Sanjay Jha is the worse CEO ever).  But since I haven't filled my original 32gigs yet and tend to use could services (when near wifi) I haven't needed the expansion yet.


----------



## Relique du Madde

IronWolf said:


> I do not have a Xoom, but Consumer Reports is ranking the iPad2 at the top of the stack:
> 
> iPad 2 top tablet says Consumer Reports - SlashGear
> 
> They do rank the Xoom at the same level as a Gen1 iPad.
> 
> You can get tabbed browsing on the iPad, though you do it through a browser bought from the AppStore.  I am not a huge fan of flash, so I do not mind having it on m iPad.  I have seen mixed reviews of flash on the Android tablets so far, but no experience with it.




Tabbed browsing is DEFAULT on Xoom because it uses Chrome for the browser (and it comes with the ablity to sync with your chrome account).

How well flash works on the Xoom partially depends on the action script code that is put into it.  I yet to have flash kill my Xoom... but then again, since my Xoom is wifi only, I rarely use it to view the web only.

However, what I have noticed is that the Xoom sucks at viewing some sites that rely on popups, but this is due to chrome's built in popup blocker (I yet to figure out how to turn it off).

On minor annoyance I have as a result of the xoom using chrome is that there almost is no way (currently) to reorganize your links beyond moving them into folders.  I pretty much have been relying on my pc's chrome to get the folders in their proper order of importance.  Ideally you should be able to drag and drop, but that doesn't seem to work (or a least I haven't figured out how-to if you could).


----------



## falcarrion

Adobe plans to add HTTP live streaming to Flash Media Server to support iOS.

TUAW -- The Unofficial Apple Weblog


----------



## falcarrion

Relique du Madde said:


> Tabbed browsing is DEFAULT on Xoom because it uses Chrome for the browser (and it comes with the ablity to sync with your chrome account).
> 
> How well flash works on the Xoom partially depends on the action script code that is put into it.  I yet to have flash kill my Xoom... but then again, since my Xoom is wifi only, I rarely use it to view the web only.
> 
> However, what I have noticed is that the Xoom sucks at viewing some sites that rely on popups, but this is due to chrome's built in popup blocker (I yet to figure out how to turn it off).
> 
> On minor annoyance I have as a result of the xoom using chrome is that there almost is no way (currently) to reorganize your links beyond moving them into folders.  I pretty much have been relying on my pc's chrome to get the folders in their proper order of importance.  Ideally you should be able to drag and drop, but that doesn't seem to work (or a least I haven't figured out how-to if you could).



















Maybe this will help.
how do i turn off the pop-up blocker - Google Chrome Help
http://androidforums.com/xoom-support-troubleshooting/301702-multiple-pop-ups-xoom.html


----------



## IronWolf

Relique du Madde said:


> Tabbed browsing is DEFAULT on Xoom because it uses Chrome for the browser (and it comes with the ablity to sync with your chrome account).




Chrome would be nice, especially the bookmark sync.  The browser that supports tabs (and an adblocker) is only .99 cents though, so it wasn't a major purchase.  Still no bookmark sync though.


----------



## John Crichton

Fast Learner said:


> My favorites are:
> 
> *PlainText*: Continuous Dropbox syncing as you make changes to the document, which I love because I don't have to manually sync (or more likely, forget to).
> 
> *Textastic*: Programmer's text editor with extended keyboards (tabs, arrow keys, etc.), syntax highlighting for dozens of languages, FTP and Dropbox support, built-in WebDAV server, etc.
> 
> *Nebulous Notes*: Modifiable extended keyboard, Dropbox support, and (big for me) Markdown, Multi-Markdown, and HTML preview.



I was referring more to notes taken in meetings and such.  Not apps optimized for programming or web dev.


----------



## John Crichton

I imagine bookmark syncing will be coming within this calendar year to the iPad.  It's simply a feature too many people want.


----------



## Fast Learner

John Crichton said:


> I was referring more to notes taken in meetings and such.  Not apps optimized for programming or web dev.




Yes, I understand, but (a) thought folks might be interested in Textastic, depending on their notetaking needs (programmers take notes, too), and (b) I use PlainText for meeting notes all the time, and am switching to Nebulous Notes due to the extra keys and Markdown previews. 

I've tried Awesome Note and it's totally not for me -- it feels full of, well, crap. I've come to love the clean, simple aesthetic of most iOS apps.

For client meetings I want to be able to type simple text with super-fast formatting (as with Markdown) and have it available on all of my other platforms instantly, without ever having to consider syncing.


----------



## IronWolf

John Crichton said:


> I imagine bookmark syncing will be coming within this calendar year to the iPad.  It's simply a feature too many people want.




Yeah, not a make or break issue for me.  I bookmark the sites I use 80% of the time and that keeps me going pretty good.


----------



## falcarrion

Are you ready for this folks!

Rep. Jesse Jackson Jr. is blaming the Ipad for unemployment.

Rep. Jesse Jackson, Jr. calls out iPad as a job-killer


----------



## John Crichton

IronWolf said:


> Yeah, not a make or break issue for me.  I bookmark the sites I use 80% of the time and that keeps me going pretty good.



It's one of those features that will be improved with the competition from Android most likely.


----------



## IronWolf

John Crichton said:


> It's one of those features that will be improved with the competition from Android most likely.




Competition is good!  Heck I was hoping the Android tablets would come in at a nice low price with lots of features.  Seems Apple, despite their reputation for overpriced products came in at a pretty fair price for their iPad.  Enough so, that after waiting a good amount of time I finally chose the iPad, albeit a G1, for my tablet.  So far I have been quite happy with it!


----------



## IronWolf

falcarrion said:


> Are you ready for this folks!
> 
> Rep. Jesse Jackson Jr. is blaming the Ipad for unemployment.
> 
> Rep. Jesse Jackson, Jr. calls out iPad as a job-killer




Uh. Wow!


----------



## Janx

Fast Learner said:


> Yes, I understand, but (a) thought folks might be interested in Textastic, depending on their notetaking needs (programmers take notes, too), and (b) I use PlainText for meeting notes all the time, and am switching to Nebulous Notes due to the extra keys and Markdown previews.
> 
> I've tried Awesome Note and it's totally not for me -- it feels full of, well, crap. I've come to love the clean, simple aesthetic of most iOS apps.
> 
> For client meetings I want to be able to type simple text with super-fast formatting (as with Markdown) and have it available on all of my other platforms instantly, without ever having to consider syncing.




As a programmer, the kind of notes I tend to take are jotting down primary keys, sketching out ERDs, drawing a screen layout.


----------



## Fast Learner

Janx said:


> As a programmer, the kind of notes I tend to take are jotting down primary keys, sketching out ERDs, drawing a screen layout.




As a programmer, me too. I also often pull up code to examine and discuss when meeting with other programmers, where code highlighting (and the ability to make a quick change) comes in quite handy.


----------



## John Crichton

IronWolf said:


> Competition is good!  Heck I was hoping the Android tablets would come in at a nice low price with lots of features.  Seems Apple, despite their reputation for overpriced products came in at a pretty fair price for their iPad.  Enough so, that after waiting a good amount of time I finally chose the iPad, albeit a G1, for my tablet.  So far I have been quite happy with it!



Same here, although I went with the iPad 2 because I don't think we'll get a comparable unit until later in '11 for Droid.  When something does hit I'll pick it up and either sell the one I don't want or give it to my wife if she wants it.  Secondary market appears to be very solid right now for tablets.  



Janx said:


> As a programmer, the kind of notes I tend to take are jotting down primary keys, sketching out ERDs, drawing a screen layout.



I was just asking for a comparison for paid apps.  Didn't know I should have been more specific.


----------



## IronWolf

John Crichton said:


> Same here, although I went with the iPad 2 because I don't think we'll get a comparable unit until later in '11 for Droid.  When something does hit I'll pick it up and either sell the one I don't want or give it to my wife if she wants it.  Secondary market appears to be very solid right now for tablets.




I considered the iPad 2, but got a reasonable price on a new 32GB WiFi only Gen 1.  I felt I needed to justify the usefulness of such a device before bumping up into the next cost tier (subjectively formed by me...    ).

So far I am quite happy with the purchase and found the device quite useful.  I am sure the supposed extra speed of a iPad 2 would be nice, but I don't feel too constrained at the moment.


----------



## John Crichton

IronWolf said:


> I considered the iPad 2, but got a reasonable price on a new 32GB WiFi only Gen 1.  I felt I needed to justify the usefulness of such a device before bumping up into the next cost tier (subjectively formed by me...    ).
> 
> So far I am quite happy with the purchase and found the device quite useful.  I am sure the supposed extra speed of a iPad 2 would be nice, but I don't feel too constrained at the moment.



I hear ya on the price, for sure.  I nearly went for a cheaper Gen 1 but figure I waited this long, why not have a little treat.


----------



## IronWolf

John Crichton said:


> I hear ya on the price, for sure.  I nearly went for a cheaper Gen 1 but figure I waited this long, why not have a little treat.




A good move.  Hindsight being 20/20 I know now that I would not have regretted buying a Gen 2 myself.  But that's okay - when the time comes to justify an upgrade I am sure Ms. IronWolf or one of the IronPups can get lots of use out of my hand-me-down!


----------



## John Crichton

IronWolf said:


> A good move.  Hindsight being 20/20 I know now that I would not have regretted buying a Gen 2 myself.  But that's okay - when the time comes to justify an upgrade I am sure Ms. IronWolf or one of the IronPups can get lots of use out of my hand-me-down!



Boo-ya.

I knew that once my wife was mesmerized by the iPad in an Apple Store last year that she'd take one off my hands at some point.  It's still possible that she'll claim this one.

Eek!


----------



## Banshee16

John Crichton said:


> What do you like about it compared to other note taking apps?




To be clear.....I'm not qualified to say it's *better*.  Just that I have it, and I like it.

I tend to try free versions of stuff, and if I like it enough, I then buy.  I use my phone as a personal organizer.  What I like about Awesome Note is that I can easily add notes, or use it to add tasks.  I can set timelines, reminders, look at a schedule showing relative due dates, assign levels of importance so certain tasks have priorities over other ones, etc.  I can set alarms, look at stuff to be done today, tomorrow, this week, etc.  Or repeat a task.

Within notes and tasks, I can embed file attachments (ie. if I am working on a proposal, I can embed the related PDF RFP document), as well as images, set backgrounds/wallpapers, etc.

Overall, it does pretty  much everything I want.  The only thing it *doesn't* do is show me a calendar view similar to a Gant Chart (I think that's what it's called)....ie if a task starts Monday, and is due Thursday, on the weekly calendar, it shows the task as a bar running from Monday through Thursday.  That's one thing I wish it would do that it doesn't seem to.

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16

Relique du Madde said:


> I have one.  It's a pretty good tablet.  I just personally wish that the android store had a better way of organizing apps so you know which ones are tablet apps.  (Only seeing a list of about 50 really bites).
> 
> I'm still pretty sure it doesn't have micro SD reader support yet (because Sanjay Jha is the worse CEO ever).  But since I haven't filled my original 32gigs yet and tend to use could services (when near wifi) I haven't needed the expansion yet.




That's good to know.  I know the iPad 2 had a brighter, more vibrant screen than the Xoom appeared to have...however, that's with the caveat that the demo iPad 2's screen background was a very bright image, whereas the Xoom had a black screen with glowy blue interface......so I can't say it's a fair comparison, without looking at the two devices side by side looking at the same image.

I'm not entirely keen on the iPad 2, which is why the Xoom interested me.  I suppose if I was enthralled with my iPhone 4, it would be a foregone conclusion....but I'm not.  I went from a Bold 9700 to the iPhone 4, and personally feel that, as a phone and a messaging device (I do *alot* of e-mail for work) I've taken a step down.  I don't find it nearly as powerful that way.  However, I do find the iPhone 4 to be a superior portable computer.

I get very frustrated every time I find something else I can't do with the device.  So, that makes me hesitant to get the iPad2, because I'm concerned I'll spend *more* money, and be just as frustrated.

With the app store, I've read there aren't many apps yet....but that Honeycomb is just getting started.  Further, I've read on Amazon and other places, in the reviews, that just because there are only 50 Honeycomb/Xoom apps doesn't mean there are only 50 apps you can put on the device.  What I've read is that apps built for the other Android devices work as well.....they're just not optimized.

The iTunes store has a tonne.....but honestly, I might have 50 or so, and I rarely go much over that.  There's a *tonne* of duplication.....like a bunch of fart apps, a bunch of apps to stream radio stations, etc.  The choice is nice, but I think I have almost everything I could need at this point.

Does typing on tablets ever get easier?  At the store, I tried touch typing, and had errors galore, from my fingers accidentally brushing the screen etc.

Banshee


----------



## falcarrion

Banshee16 said:


> With the app store, I've read there aren't many apps yet....but that Honeycomb is just getting started.  Further, I've read on Amazon and other places, in the reviews, that just because there are only 50 Honeycomb/Xoom apps doesn't mean there are only 50 apps you can put on the device.  What I've read is that apps built for the other Android devices work as well.....they're just not optimized.
> 
> The iTunes store has a tonne.....but honestly, I might have 50 or so, and I rarely go much over that.  There's a *tonne* of duplication.....like a bunch of fart apps, a bunch of apps to stream radio stations, etc.  The choice is nice, but I think I have almost everything I could need at this point.
> 
> Does typing on tablets ever get easier?  At the store, I tried touch typing, and had errors galore, from my fingers accidentally brushing the screen etc.
> 
> Banshee



The number of apps is a big deal to many people. With 80,000 Ipad apps compared to 50 is a major difference. That averages out to about 6153 apps a month. With the Xoom being out since Feb you have to ask why there are so few apps. As far as optimized goes it does make a difference on the Ipad. An iphone app not optimized for the ipad is blurry. 
I'm not saying the Xoom is a lousy tablet. It is not. consumer reports recently rated it as good as the Ipad 1. The lack of apps could be for many reasons. for example app creators don't see the Xoom selling as well as the Ipad 1 or 2, and may decide to write apps for the device that will give them a higher profit. 
You could have the greatest tablet ever made, but if you have a lack of app support it could very well fail.
I hope it doesn't. Competing devices is a good thing.
If you your leaning toward to the Xoom thats cool. And if you buy one, please come back and let us know about your experiance. The more we disscuss the various tablets, the more we learn about the good and bad things of each type.


----------



## John Crichton

I have no doubt that the Android tablets will have a competitive number of apps customized for it in due time.  The iPad took a little while to gather steam as did the Droid Marketplace itself.  A better snapshot will be the fall when devs have more time to come out with what people want and simply to convert existing apps to tablet format vs smartphone.


----------



## Banshee16

falcarrion said:


> The number of apps is a big deal to many people. With 80,000 Ipad apps compared to 50 is a major difference. That averages out to about 6153 apps a month. With the Xoom being out since Feb you have to ask why there are so few apps. As far as optimized goes it does make a difference on the Ipad. An iphone app not optimized for the ipad is blurry.
> I'm not saying the Xoom is a lousy tablet. It is not. consumer reports recently rated it as good as the Ipad 1. The lack of apps could be for many reasons. for example app creators don't see the Xoom selling as well as the Ipad 1 or 2, and may decide to write apps for the device that will give them a higher profit.
> You could have the greatest tablet ever made, but if you have a lack of app support it could very well fail.
> I hope it doesn't. Competing devices is a good thing.
> If you your leaning toward to the Xoom thats cool. And if you buy one, please come back and let us know about your experiance. The more we disscuss the various tablets, the more we learn about the good and bad things of each type.




50 specific Xoom apps...no, that's not much.....but everything I've read is that there are more on the way.

I'm not proselytizing here.  People have their own individual needs etc.  Both my partners (in business) have iPad 2's and love them.  However, one of them buys anything that has the Apple logo on it, so I don't really count that.  The other is a PC guy, so I'm more interested in his take.

With a baby coming in a month, I don't think I can really justify this at the moment anyways.

Buying a device with no apps would, yes, suck.  Hopefully that won't be the situation longterm.

I can afford to wait.  I was surprised how nice the Xoom appeared when I held it.  But I also want to see the Playbook.  I tried the Galaxy Tab and didn't like it.

But every time I go into a client meeting carting around my big laptop, and see clients pull out tablets to pull up sites we're reviewing, or send out notes or whatever, I can see the utility of the things.  Having carted my laptop on a photography tour through Paris and Rome back in November, there's something to be said for a smaller, lighter, more portable device.

My sister purchased the Kobo, and loves it, and is reading a tonne of books on it.  Seeing that is also something I've thought of....it would certainly reduce the load on my bookshelves.

I think the main thing holding me back is how quick all of these devices chew through batteries.  If the whole "400 charge cycles before the battery capacity is permanently reduced" thing is not simply something that occurs with the iPad and iPhone batteries, then it's a big of a concern.  Maybe I'm anal, but I know just *knowing* that with the iPhone has me stressing about keeping it plugged in all the time.  At least I can replace the battery there, though.

My understanding is that with tablets, that's not possible.

Banshee


----------



## Relique du Madde

Banshee16 said:


> That's good to know.  I know the iPad 2 had a brighter, more vibrant screen than the Xoom appeared to have...however, that's with the caveat that the demo iPad 2's screen background was a very bright image, whereas the Xoom had a black screen with glowy blue interface......so I can't say it's a fair comparison, without looking at the two devices side by side looking at the same image.
> 
> I'm not entirely keen on the iPad 2, which is why the Xoom interested me.  I suppose if I was enthralled with my iPhone 4, it would be a foregone conclusion....but I'm not.  I went from a Bold 9700 to the iPhone 4, and personally feel that, as a phone and a messaging device (I do *alot* of e-mail for work) I've taken a step down.  I don't find it nearly as powerful that way.  However, I do find the iPhone 4 to be a superior portable computer.
> 
> I get very frustrated every time I find something else I can't do with the device.  So, that makes me hesitant to get the iPad2, because I'm concerned I'll spend *more* money, and be just as frustrated.
> 
> With the app store, I've read there aren't many apps yet....but that Honeycomb is just getting started.  Further, I've read on Amazon and other places, in the reviews, that just because there are only 50 Honeycomb/Xoom apps doesn't mean there are only 50 apps you can put on the device.  What I've read is that apps built for the other Android devices work as well.....they're just not optimized.
> 
> The iTunes store has a tonne.....but honestly, I might have 50 or so, and I rarely go much over that.  There's a *tonne* of duplication.....like a bunch of fart apps, a bunch of apps to stream radio stations, etc.  The choice is nice, but I think I have almost everything I could need at this point.
> 
> Does typing on tablets ever get easier?  At the store, I tried touch typing, and had errors galore, from my fingers accidentally brushing the screen etc.
> 
> Banshee



You might want to wait until the Samsung Galaxy 9.8 and 10.1 pads come out.  why?  Because Apple uses Samsung screens for the iPads meaning that the Galaxy Honeycombs will have equal if not better displays.

Not sure if typing gets easier without a physical keyboard, I know that there are some apps like swype, but so far I could using swype annoying since I accidentally swype the wrong keys with my fingers (and it tends to make your fingers feel raw after a bit). 




> I have no doubt that the Android tablets will have a competitive number of apps customized for it in due time. The iPad took a little while to gather steam as did the Droid Marketplace itself. A better snapshot will be the fall when devs have more time to come out with what people want and simply to convert existing apps to tablet format vs smartphone.



"Competitive" is a vague benchmark considering that iPad is considered to be the easy money platform and a number like 500 could be seen as being competitive depending on what kind of apps those 500 are.

Fact of the matter is some apps scale perfectly  while others don't because of the screen differences within the Android platform.  Most of the newer phones use 800 x480 (Droids use 854x480 which was a problem when making an android air game I've been working on that lead me to just dev for honeycomb since to the memory requirements on that system make for a far better flash-based experience).  Luckily it seems that Google mandated a 1280x800 screen resolution on Honeycomb since almost every tablet that has been revealed since after February are using that resolution (The Slate G appears to be the only tablet that snuck passed google's android lockdown constraints).


----------



## falcarrion

Banshee16 said:


> I think the main thing holding me back is how quick all of these devices chew through batteries.  If the whole "400 charge cycles before the battery capacity is permanently reduced" thing is not simply something that occurs with the iPad and iPhone batteries, then it's a big of a concern.  Maybe I'm anal, but I know just *knowing* that with the iPhone has me stressing about keeping it plugged in all the time.  At least I can replace the battery there, though.
> 
> My understanding is that with tablets, that's not possible.
> 
> Banshee




First congrats on your soon to come baby.
As far as pc or an Apple person I would say I'm a pc guy. The only apple products I have is the Itouch and the Ipad.
As for the battery life I haven't had a problem with it. But I'm sure you would use it more then me. As for battery replacement there are places you can get that done.
Expert iPod Repair Service $25. DigiExpress - leaders in Apple Repair for 4 years


----------



## falcarrion

A bluetooth key board might be the answer. There various covers out there that have keyboards.

Amazon.com: ipad covers


----------



## Banshee16

falcarrion said:


> First congrats on your soon to come baby.
> As far as pc or an Apple person I would say I'm a pc guy. The only apple products I have is the Itouch and the Ipad.
> As for the battery life I haven't had a problem with it. But I'm sure you would use it more then me. As for battery replacement there are places you can get that done.
> Expert iPod Repair Service $25. DigiExpress - leaders in Apple Repair for 4 years




Thanks!  It's our first 

Can you replace the batteries on the iPad, and other tablets though?  I know it's possible in the iPhone 4.  A friend of mine is a tech for one of the cellphone companies that carries the iPhone 4, and he's told me if it comes down to it, he'll show me how to do it.

But I don't know about the other kinds of devices.

Banshee


----------



## falcarrion

The battery can be replaced but it is not easy.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnjtvMCndcw]YouTube - Apple iPad Battery Replacement & Repair Directions by DirectFix.com[/ame]


----------



## falcarrion

Here is a teardown on the Xoom
Motorola Xoom Teardown - iFixit


----------



## Relique du Madde

Banshee16 said:


> But I don't know about the other kinds of devices.




You have to tear down the Xoom (and maybe the other Honeycomb tablets) just like you have to with the iPod.  So techs can replace them, but the average users can't.


----------



## John Crichton

Relique du Madde said:


> "Competitive" is a vague benchmark considering that iPad is considered to be the easy money platform and a number like 500 could be seen as being competitive depending on what kind of apps those 500 are.



Competitive isn't meant as a benchmark.  It's meant as a comparison of similar features.    Number of apps means nothing.  Quality over quantity.



Relique du Madde said:


> Fact of the matter is some apps scale perfectly  while others don't because of the screen differences within the Android platform.  Most of the newer phones use 800 x480 (Droids use 854x480 which was a problem when making an android air game I've been working on that lead me to just dev for honeycomb since to the memory requirements on that system make for a far better flash-based experience).  Luckily it seems that Google mandated a 1280x800 screen resolution on Honeycomb since almost every tablet that has been revealed since after February are using that resolution (The Slate G appears to be the only tablet that snuck passed google's android lockdown constraints).



Not really sure what you are getting at here or if I'm being agreed with or disagreed with.  Bottom line is that that comparable Android tablet apps will come in due time just like that already did for their phones.


----------



## falcarrion

Breaking news:
Apple sues Samsung for copying the Iphone and Ipad.

Verizon brings out LTE-riding MiFi 4510L, asks for $100 on a two-year contract or $270 without -- Engadget


----------



## IronWolf

falcarrion said:


> And if you buy one, please come back and let us know about your experiance. The more we disscuss the various tablets, the more we learn about the good and bad things of each type.




Agreed.  Even though I fell on the iPad side of the fence this time around I know the android devices will catch up as time goes on.  So the information sharing about pros and cons of either device is most welcomed.


----------



## IronWolf

Banshee16 said:


> Thanks!  It's our first
> 
> Can you replace the batteries on the iPad, and other tablets though?  I know it's possible in the iPhone 4.  A friend of mine is a tech for one of the cellphone companies that carries the iPhone 4, and he's told me if it comes down to it, he'll show me how to do it.
> 
> But I don't know about the other kinds of devices.




If you have Apple replace the battery in the iPad they send you a replacement iPad at a cost of $99 + shipping and handling.


----------



## IronWolf

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> I think the main thing holding me back is how quick all of these devices chew through batteries.  If the whole "400 charge cycles before the battery capacity is permanently reduced" thing is not simply something that occurs with the iPad and iPhone batteries, then it's a big of a concern.  Maybe I'm anal, but I know just *knowing* that with the iPhone has me stressing about keeping it plugged in all the time.  At least I can replace the battery there, though.
> 
> My understanding is that with tablets, that's not possible.




While looking for the other battery replacement info, I found that Apple claims the iPad battery will hold 80% of it's charge after 1000 charge cycles.


----------



## John Crichton

IronWolf said:


> If you have Apple replace the battery in the iPad they send you a replacement iPad at a cost of $99 + shipping and handling.



I think Applecare also covers it but only for 2 years.


----------



## IronWolf

John Crichton said:


> I think Applecare also covers it but only for 2 years.




Yep, AppleCare would cover it as well.


----------



## John Crichton

IronWolf said:


> Yep, AppleCare would cover it as well.



Kinda a bummer what they charge for, tho.


----------



## Fast Learner

SquareTrade has a significantly better warranty for just a bit more ($96 instead of $80): it covers not only manufacturing defects and such, like AppleCare, but also covers drops, spills, full immersion in water, running it over with your car, etc., for the same two years. 

Personal experience from two different friends who've used it and had to send their devices in due to accidental damage indicates that the company does a good job with speedy replacement.


----------



## John Crichton

Fast Learner said:


> SquareTrade has a significantly better warranty for just a bit more ($96 instead of $80): it covers not only manufacturing defects and such, like AppleCare, but also covers drops, spills, full immersion in water, running it over with your car, etc., for the same two years.
> 
> Personal experience from two different friends who've used it and had to send their devices in due to accidental damage indicates that the company does a good job with speedy replacement.



Good to know for the next go-around if there is one.


----------



## IronWolf

Fast Learner said:


> SquareTrade has a significantly better warranty for just a bit more ($96 instead of $80): it covers not only manufacturing defects and such, like AppleCare, but also covers drops, spills, full immersion in water, running it over with your car, etc., for the same two years.




Interesting option!  Nice to have the drops, spills and such covered - especially with a device like a tablet.


----------



## falcarrion

apple released there quarter numbers today. They sold 4.69 million Ipads( 1 and 2 combined). They said they sold every ipad 2 they had. 

Thats just amazing.

Note this represents units shipped not any that are on backorder.


----------



## Relique du Madde

John Crichton said:


> Not really sure what you are getting at here or if I'm being agreed with or disagreed with.  Bottom line is that that comparable Android tablet apps will come in due time just like that already did for their phones.




I was getting at the fact that Google locking down the screen sizes on the tablets will actually make it easier to dev. for Honey Comb tablets, so what you said about us getting a better notion about how developers view Honeycomb this summer and fall will be true (at least for the US and Europe).   Because like it or not, having to dev for 8+ different screen sizes (between phones and talets) really is hurting android more then it is benefiting it.


----------



## Relique du Madde

falcarrion said:


> Breaking news:
> Apple sues Samsung for copying the Iphone and Ipad.
> 
> Verizon brings out LTE-riding MiFi 4510L, asks for $100 on a two-year contract or $270 without -- Engadget




I personally think this lawsuit shows that Apple is Scared of Samsung and they believe that the Samsung tablets will actually compete well against the iDevice.  After all, how long has Samsung been making devices with a similar aesthetic?  Two years?  

The lawsuit coming now right before Galaxy 10.1 is release screams desperation rather then IP protection.


----------



## Fast Learner

Relique du Madde said:


> I personally think this lawsuit shows that Apple is Scared of Samsung and they believe that the Samsung tablets will actually compete well against the iDevice.  After all, how long has Samsung been making devices with a similar aesthetic?  Two years?




In the earnings call today Apple said they've been discussing the matter with Samsung and haven't been able to come to terms. In addition, Samsung is a major supplier of iPhone and iPad components, so suing them isn't something they'd do lightly.



> The lawsuit coming now right before Galaxy 10.1 is release screams desperation rather then IP protection.




Yeah, Apple's surely feeling desperate. Another record quarter, the 20th consecutive outperforming the industry, the most valuable tech company in the world and the second-most valuable period, 190 million iOS devices sold including 20 million iPads, 95% year-over-year profit growth making $6 billion in profit _last quarter alone_, selling 85% of all tablets last year. So, so desperate.


----------



## falcarrion

Apple was Samsung's second-largest client in 2010, following Sony. Apple reportedly accounted for 4 percent of Samsung's $142 billion in revenue last year, or $5.68 billion.

I don't think Apple is scared in the least. I doubt Samsung is ready to loose Apple as a client. $5.68 billion loss would be hard for them to replace.


----------



## Relique du Madde

falcarrion said:


> Apple was Samsung's second-largest client in 2010, following Sony. Apple reportedly accounted for 4 percent of Samsung's $142 billion in revenue last year, or $5.68 billion.
> 
> I don't think Apple is scared in the least. I doubt Samsung is ready to loose Apple as a client. $5.68 billion loss would be hard for them to replace.




If you are dead certain that a competitor will never be able to eat into your sales then they designed something that has a similar aesthetic to your own or their coming up with something similar to your ip, then it wouldn't matter.  However, since each Samsung Android device sold is one less iPhone, iPod or iPad sold, Apple has something to worry about since if someone decides to buy a Samsung android device their is a slight chance that they might not buy the next iDevice version when it is released ( or even skip 2+ releases) or that they might decide to leave the walled garden for good. 

So yea, they are scared.  They are scared that they might loose another percentage point to tens of percentage points from their market share because their competitor/supplier is building something someone might want to buy.


----------



## Fast Learner

Relique du Madde said:


> If you are dead certain that a competitor will never be able to eat into your sales then they designed something that has a similar aesthetic to your own or their coming up with something similar to your ip, then it wouldn't matter.



But of course they know better. Heck, 6% of tablet sales last year were these Samsung copycats. They're not dumb.



> However, since each Samsung Android device sold is one less iPhone, iPod or iPad sold, Apple has something to worry about since if someone decides to buy a Samsung android device their is a slight chance that they might not buy the next iDevice version when it is released ( or even skip 2+ releases) or that they might decide to leave the walled garden for good.



Except of course that's not true. There are lots of people -- likely you included -- who would never buy an iPad but might well buy a Samsung tablet. It's far from a zero-sum game.



> So yea, they are scared.  They are scared that they might loose another percentage point to tens of percentage points from their market share because their competitor/supplier is building something someone might want to buy.




Seriously, "scared" and "desperation" are incredibly far off base. They know full well that other tablets will sell and that 85% of the market is the highest they'll ever be, and that they'll likely slip below 70% this year. They're extremely talented businesspeople who will put in their best effort to maintain their lead and make money and fully understand the market they're in. 

They're not scared, and they're not even _remotely_ desperate.


----------



## John Crichton

Relique du Madde said:


> I was getting at the fact that Google locking down the screen sizes on the tablets will actually make it easier to dev. for Honey Comb tablets, so what you said about us getting a better notion about how developers view Honeycomb this summer and fall will be true (at least for the US and Europe).   Because like it or not, having to dev for 8+ different screen sizes (between phones and talets) really is hurting android more then it is benefiting it.



Ah, thanks for the clarification.


----------



## falcarrion

Relique du Madde said:


> If you are dead certain that a competitor will never be able to eat into your sales then they designed something that has a similar aesthetic to your own or their coming up with something similar to your ip, then it wouldn't matter.  However, since each Samsung Android device sold is one less iPhone, iPod or iPad sold, Apple has something to worry about since if someone decides to buy a Samsung android device their is a slight chance that they might not buy the next iDevice version when it is released ( or even skip 2+ releases) or that they might decide to leave the walled garden for good.
> 
> So yea, they are scared.  They are scared that they might loose another percentage point to tens of percentage points from their market share because their competitor/supplier is building something someone might want to buy.




It would be easy to say the same thing with Samsung being the one who is scared. And with the numbers as the facts behind it.
The apple iphone revenue rose to $11.9 billion in the last quarter and Nokia slipped to $9.4 billion. Which makes makes the Iphone the top in worldwide revenue.


----------



## JoeGKushner

Relique du Madde said:


> I personally think this lawsuit shows that Apple is Scared of Samsung and they believe that the Samsung tablets will actually compete well against the iDevice.  After all, how long has Samsung been making devices with a similar aesthetic?  Two years?
> 
> The lawsuit coming now right before Galaxy 10.1 is release screams desperation rather then IP protection.




The wisdom of suing your hardware provider should be interesting to see to say the least.


----------



## falcarrion

Here is the ultra thin samsung galaxy tab 10.1

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdu5PVjCGo0&feature=player_embedded]YouTube - Tinhte.vn - Trên tay Galaxy Tab 10.1.mov[/ame]


----------



## Fast Learner

John Crichton said:


> On a different but similar topic I picked up Notes Plus today and used it in two meetings.  I like what I've seen so far.  We'll see how it goes when I get a stylus.  With any luck I'll be able to scrap paper notebooks at work.




Just saw this video:

 [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2c5sdXu91s"]this video[/ame] 

for notetaking iPad app UPAD; wow does it look good! Checking out the lite version today.


----------



## John Crichton

Fast Learner said:


> for notetaking iPad app UPAD; wow does it look good! Checking out the lite version today.



Lots of similar features to Notes Plus.  It does respond a bit faster with rendering which is nice, not that NP is bad at it.  I'm not sure I like the way it does carriage returns where it doesn't go to the start of the next line when "drawing" text.  It also doesn't have any of the shape rendering or text moving features (that I can see) of NP.  The app is a bit more slick overall, which I do like.

It would be great to see all the best features of both jammed in to one app.  

Thanks for the heads-up!


----------



## falcarrion

John Crichton said:


> Lots of similar features to Notes Plus.  It does respond a bit faster with rendering which is nice, not that NP is bad at it.  I'm not sure I like the way it does carriage returns where it doesn't go to the start of the next line when "drawing" text.  It also doesn't have any of the shape rendering or text moving features (that I can see) of NP.  The app is a bit more slick overall, which I do like.
> 
> It would be great to see all the best features of both jammed in to one app.
> 
> Thanks for the heads-up!




no one says you can't have both.


----------



## John Crichton

falcarrion said:


> no one says you can't have both.



Is there an app that has both right now?

Cuz I get that features are added and apps tweaked all the time.


----------



## falcarrion

notes plus is on sale today for $1.99 today only.


----------



## IronWolf

falcarrion said:


> notes plus is on sale today for $1.99 today only.




Thanks for the heads up.  Somehow I missed that on my twitter feed!  This is the app I am leaning towards, though I may hold out until it has Dropbox integration.


----------



## John Crichton

IronWolf said:


> Thanks for the heads up.  Somehow I missed that on my twitter feed!  This is the app I am leaning towards, though I may hold out until it has Dropbox integration.



I imagine it's coming at some point as they already have google docs and email as ways to get yourself the files.  $2 is excellent!


----------



## IronWolf

John Crichton said:


> I imagine it's coming at some point as they already have google docs and email as ways to get yourself the files.  $2 is excellent!




Yeah, the dev has it listed as one of the upcoming features, along with Evernote syncing as well.

Google Docs as a way to get files though?  That might suffice for me while I wait for the Dropbox feature.


----------



## John Crichton

IronWolf said:


> Yeah, the dev has it listed as one of the upcoming features, along with Evernote syncing as well.
> 
> Google Docs as a way to get files though?  That might suffice for me while I wait for the Dropbox feature.



It works as advertised.  Although I typically just email stuff to myself I did test it out.  

Jeeze, it's like I should be getting a commission for pimping out this app or something!


----------



## JoeGKushner

Also looks like Android will have 'Moonlight', a Silverlight version?

But then again I've seen sites talking about Microsfot making Silverlight all HTML5 so...


----------



## Relique du Madde

JoeGKushner said:


> But then again I've seen sites talking about Microsfot making Silverlight all HTML5 so...




Actually, what's happening is that Microsoft has been trying to get Silverlight included into the w3c so that they would have their priority system become the standard instead of flash.

But most likely, they like adobe are creating conversion programs.


----------



## IronWolf

John Crichton said:


> It works as advertised.  Although I typically just email stuff to myself I did test it out.
> 
> Jeeze, it's like I should be getting a commission for pimping out this app or something!




Picked it up this evening.  Haven't really had the chance to play with it yet, but this was my top contender and at the sale price hard to pass up.


----------



## falcarrion

IronWolf said:


> Picked it up this evening.  Haven't really had the chance to play with it yet, but this was my top contender and at the sale price hard to pass up.




I did the same.


----------



## falcarrion

IronWolf said:


> Picked it up this evening.  Haven't really had the chance to play with it yet, but this was my top contender and at the sale price hard to pass up.




I did the same. I couldn't pass up the price. Besides it will last longer then a Bic Mac.


----------



## John Crichton

I'll likely pick up any note taking app if it's that cheap.  Even if it's just to play with it and not use it all the time!


----------



## IronWolf

So.... now I have this nifty new note taking app it seems I could make better use of a stylus.  Anyone have a preference?  Judging from some light review reading it seems the Boxwave is popular and that the Targus one is quite similar in design.  Because I am impatient I am leaning towards the Targus that I can likely pick up locally.


----------



## falcarrion

Ten 1 Design Pogo Sketch stylus seems to be popular.


----------



## IronWolf

falcarrion said:


> Ten 1 Design Pogo Sketch stylus seems to be popular.




Yeah - I saw that one as well.  I saw some folks saying the tip was quite spongy versus the more rubber tip types of the Boxwave or Targus.  This is probably one of those wildly subjective opinion type things!


----------



## falcarrion

heres another you might like

US$ 4.19 - Cheap Touchpad Stylus Pen for Apple 9.7 iPad - Black


----------



## IronWolf

falcarrion said:


> heres another you might like
> 
> US$ 4.19 - Cheap Touchpad Stylus Pen for Apple 9.7 iPad - Black




The price definitely speaks to me!


----------



## falcarrion

I have tried a spongy tip stylus and didn't like it to write with. They work fine for most things like typing etc. A firmer tip for writing is what I would suggest.


----------



## John Crichton

I picked up this one from amazon:  Acase Stylus

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004ES74WQ"]Amazon.com: Acase 2 in 1 Stylus + Pen for Apple iPad 16GB, 32GB, 64GB WiFi + 3G, iPad 2, iPhone, iPod, Motorola Xoom, Samsung Galaxy, BlackBerry Playbook (Black): Electronics[/ame]


----------



## nedjer

Techradar, etc . . .  have pics of Sony's two new tablets. Their eh, mmm . . . a clear sign that the tablet war's bathwater is barely lukewarm so far


----------



## falcarrion

nedjer said:


> Techradar, etc . . .  have pics of Sony's two new tablets. Their eh, mmm . . . a clear sign that the tablet war's bathwater is barely lukewarm so far




I disagree. With about 7 different tablets coming out or are out it.


----------



## IronWolf

I picked up the Targus stylus tonight before my game.  It worked quite well using NotesPlus.  Of course I don't have much to compare it to.

I also GMed about 80% of my game tonight from the iPad!


----------



## John Crichton

falcarrion said:


> I disagree. With about 7 different tablets coming out or are out it.



I can't agree with you.  We've known for a long while more tablets were on the way.  Nothing is lighting the lamp in terms of being able to truly compete with the iPad yet.  That's when the war will really start.


----------



## Banshee16

John Crichton said:


> I can't agree with you.  We've known for a long while more tablets were on the way.  Nothing is lighting the lamp in terms of being able to truly compete with the iPad yet.  That's when the war will really start.




The war's already on.  Alternative tablets are out there already, more are on the way.

I see this as being no different than the smartphone wars.  Apple makes the iPhone.  Yes, it's probably the best selling *individual* phone....but if you took all Android phones, for instance, they'd add up to very strong opposition, even if none of them were individually selling the iPhone.  And I don't think it's realistic to expect otherwise.  I mean......how many different Android phones are there?  How many different Blackberries are there?  I'm sure if Apple manufactured multiple models of smartphone, the iPhone wouldn't be nearly as individually dominant as it is now.

Same for tablets.  In terms of consumer devices (given that Apple didn't invent the tablet computer), the iPad hit first and has become very popular, in the absence of competition initially.  However, there have been increasing numbers of other tablets coming out.  There'll be a bunch of Android tablets.  There's the RiM Playbook.  And there are even Windows based tablets.

It's going to be death by a thousand cuts.  The Apple product may or may not stay on top.  Simply by virtue of how many have been sold, it could very well stay on top.  It'll be a few more years to know for sure.  But if there are a bunch of competitors, they'll make a difference in time.

And, as to sales numbers?  I don't think anyone is expecting iPad like sales numbers initially.  I've read the Xoom sold something like 75,000 copies in a month.  For a $600-800 device, that's a fair chunk of revenue.  Maybe only 6% of the sales of iPads in a similar time period....but if you start combining Xoom, Galaxy Tab, EEE tab, Playbook etc. they'll all add up.

Incidentally, I've tested out the Playbook in the last several days, and it's quite a nice device.  Faster than the iPad, nicer interface, proper multitasking, better browser, Flash support etc.  No, it doesn't have the app store..but if you have Flash support, that's less necessary.  As an example, on the iPhone, I need to install the SpeedTest app, to run tests through SpeedTest.net, because Flash isn't supported.  With the Playbook you just use your browser and go to Speedtest.net - The Global Broadband Speed Test and it works flawlessly.  And it's going to run both Playbook apps and Android apps.  The power button is a pain as it's rather small, and it's currently lacking an e-mail client and calendar app, but those are coming in a few months.  RiM has excellent longterm support for their products, with regular software updates.

Banshee


----------



## John Crichton

Banshee16 said:


> The war's already on.  Alternative tablets are out there already, more are on the way.



Just because there is competition where there was once zero doesn't mean that it's of any real significance.  Now, the tablets coming out later this year will have a real shot at turning this thing into a real competition.  Until the non-iPad units are actually available for sale and people are actually using them it's all just speculation and not anything resembling a war.



Banshee16 said:


> I see this as being no different than the smartphone wars.  Apple makes the iPhone.  Yes, it's probably the best selling *individual* phone....but if you took all Android phones, for instance, they'd add up to very strong opposition, even if none of them were individually selling the iPhone.  And I don't think it's realistic to expect otherwise.  I mean......how many different Android phones are there?  How many different Blackberries are there?  I'm sure if Apple manufactured multiple models of smartphone, the iPhone wouldn't be nearly as individually dominant as it is now.



It's probably best to not equate the two as much as you are.  They are really different animals despite some of their similarities such as apps and the companies involved in creating them.  Especially because as much as a smartphone is somewhat of a luxury item for some people it's not nearly the luxury item any tablet is at this point.  For many, their smartphone is a critical part of their life.  The same cannot be said for tablet PCs.



Banshee16 said:


> Same for tablets.  In terms of consumer devices (given that Apple didn't invent the tablet computer), the iPad hit first and has become very popular, in the absence of competition initially.  However, there have been increasing numbers of other tablets coming out.  There'll be a bunch of Android tablets.  There's the RiM Playbook.  And there are even Windows based tablets.



It still holds a massive lead despite the only game in town last year.  There is no true competition right now to the iPad even though there are a few pretenders.  It just happened to be first which is helpful.  However, if there was a device out there that could really hold up it would be selling.  But there isn't such a device.  So much so that not even the combined non-iPad offerings have made much of a dent.



Banshee16 said:


> It's going to be death by a thousand cuts.  The Apple product may or may not stay on top.  Simply by virtue of how many have been sold, it could very well stay on top.  It'll be a few more years to know for sure.  But if there are a bunch of competitors, they'll make a difference in time.



I completely agree and that's when there will actually be a competition.  Because right now there isn't one.   As I mentioned earlier in the thread I have no doubt that Android tablets will be excellent once they get their act together.  But that has yet to be seen and even now they are still scrambling.



Banshee16 said:


> And, as to sales numbers?  I don't think anyone is expecting iPad like sales numbers initially.  I've read the Xoom sold something like 75,000 copies in a month.  For a $600-800 device, that's a fair chunk of revenue.  Maybe only 6% of the sales of iPads in a similar time period....but if you start combining Xoom, Galaxy Tab, EEE tab, Playbook etc. they'll all add up.



Right now they don't even add up to 1/4 of the market that the iPad has.  That's barely a skirmish considering all the effort being poured in.


----------



## IronWolf

Banshee16 said:


> Incidentally, I've tested out the Playbook in the last several days, and it's quite a nice device.  Faster than the iPad, nicer interface, proper multitasking, better browser, Flash support etc.  No, it doesn't have the app store..but if you have Flash support, that's less necessary.




I've seen a few less than favorable reviews of the Playbook.  But from what I've heard they are releasing software updates rather rapidly, so perhaps it is rapidly improving.



John Crichton said:


> It still holds a massive lead despite the only game in town last year.  There is no true competition right now to the iPad even though there are a few pretenders.  It just happened to be first which is helpful.  However, if there was a device out there that could really hold up it would be selling.  But there isn't such a device.  So much so that not even the combined non-iPad offerings have made much of a dent.
> 
> I completely agree and that's when there will actually be a competition.  Because right now there isn't one.   As I mentioned earlier in the thread I have no doubt that Android tablets will be excellent once they get their act together.  But that has yet to be seen and even now they are still scrambling.




I know when the iPad first was released my initial thought was Apple lock-in, overpriced and that I would just sit back and wait for the Android tablets that offer more for less roll in by last years holidays.  That just didn't happen.  Lots of attempts, but nothing that brought in real competition at a more competitive price.  Still plenty of time for that to happen as the tablets continue to hit the market, but like you said all the other vendors seem to be scambling.  So as we know here, in the meantime I picked up an iPad and have been quite happy with it.


----------



## falcarrion

IronWolf said:


> I picked up the Targus stylus tonight before my game.  It worked quite well using NotesPlus.  Of course I don't have much to compare it to.
> 
> I also GMed about 80% of my game tonight from the iPad!




Thats great. What apps did you end up using?


----------



## IronWolf

falcarrion said:


> Thats great. What apps did you end up using?




I am running Kingmaker at the moment, so I used Goodreader for PDF access.  Prior to the game I had added some custom bookmarks to move about the PDF a little easier.  I used an app called Initiative Tracker to keep track of init.  It is a pretty simply app, much like a magnetic combat board.  I had prepped Atomic Web Browser with Bookmarks to creatures I was likely going to need and had several tabs open to them and for quick rule lookups.

And I used NotesPlus as my scratch pad for keeping track of hit points instead of the spiral bound notebook I normally use.

I kept physical paper AP book open to the map I was using, so that was still paper based.  And I did my own dice rolling.

It worked pretty well.  The pre-game prep of adding bookmarks to things I was likely going to need helped a lot.


----------



## John Crichton

IronWolf said:


> I know when the iPad first was released my initial thought was Apple lock-in, overpriced and that I would just sit back and wait for the Android tablets that offer more for less roll in by last years holidays.  That just didn't happen.  Lots of attempts, but nothing that brought in real competition at a more competitive price.  Still plenty of time for that to happen as the tablets continue to hit the market, but like you said all the other vendors seem to be scambling.  So as we know here, in the meantime I picked up an iPad and have been quite happy with it.



Yeah, I was in a similar boat.  I waited for the 2nd gen iPad but if there was a comparable Android option I would have preferred to go with that since I really like what I've seen from the OS so far on my phone.


----------



## IronWolf

John Crichton said:


> Yeah, I was in a similar boat.  I waited for the 2nd gen iPad but if there was a comparable Android option I would have preferred to go with that since I really like what I've seen from the OS so far on my phone.




Yeah -I have an Android OS on my phone and it does pretty well.


----------



## Banshee16

IronWolf said:


> I've seen a few less than favorable reviews of the Playbook.  But from what I've heard they are releasing software updates rather rapidly, so perhaps it is rapidly improving.




Depends which reviews you read.  I've read several reviews by tech journalists that seem to consistently ommit important information.  The device *is* getting updated quickly.  Don't just read the press....read user accounts, and actually look at the devices.

If you put aside the issues with e-mail and calendar not being ready yet, then the main issues I have with the device is that I still find a 7" tablet to be somewhat small.  I tend to prefer the 10" ones.  But that's largely a personal preference thing.  The other issue I have is that the power button is small.  The complaints about that are valid....sort of.  The problem is they're mixed in with a history of knowledge of Blackberries......does stuff crash, and if it does, how do you fix it.....battery pulls and all that.  Well, with the Playbook, you obviously can't do a battery pull.  But it's not the same device as a giant blackberry.  It's a different OS.....QNX.....a very stable OS used for nuclear reactors, hydro grids, etc.  It can shut down individual kernels without affecting the rest of the OS.  Once you figure out how to bring up the menus from any program (put your finger on the Blackberry logo and swipe up) it becomes easy to close anything you need.  But then, in the hours I've spent playing with it, I didn't experience a single crash.  So, how often will you need to use the power button to reboot to fix a crash?  I doubt very often.

Releasing it before the email etc. was set up may hurt RiM in the long run.  I'm not sure.  Depends on whether people will base their buying decision on whether they're willing to wait a few more months to get the e-mail service or not.

Everyone'll have their own preferences.....I'm just saying, take a look at the device before making an opinion.  I was on the fence, but after seeing it...yeah....it's much better than you'd think, based on some of the reviews that are available.  It's a lot nicer than I expected.  Bright screen, works fast, etc.  Particularly as a business user, I find it's much more polished than the iPad (in terms of interface, not hardware).

The first time I looked at the Playbook, I got a horrible impression.  The salesguy wasn't around, and I couldn't figure out how to get off the screen it was already on when I picked it up.  I was touching everything and couldn't figure it out.  Another customer even came by, saw me struggling, said "doesn't seem very usable", and walked away.  I came back later that evening, found a sales guy, and he showed me the logo swipe, and that's when my impressions changed.  Once I started using it, I was impressed.

One thing I've noticed in the stores around my city....the iPad enjoys excellent marketing within the stores.  Sits on the ends of aisles with good signage.  The competing devices, however, are located down side aisles, without proper signage etc.  Sometimes it's even hard to find the price tag.  And in the 5 stores I visited, in 3 of them, the only device that was even configured correctly was the iPad 2.  In several instances, they either didn't have some of the other tablets even plugged in so you couldn't test them, or they hadn't updated/patched the devices (in 2 of them, they hadn't bothered to install Flash on the Xoom), and several of the devices hadn't even been granted access to the store WiFi.  Customers who came to look at the devices were literally saying "this doesn't even work" and then walking over to the iPad 2.  But the issue wasn't the device, so much as that the store's staff hadn't even bothered to configure them so customers could compare.  I mean, were those 3 stores exceptions? Or is that trend continued in other cities?  The stores I visited were 2 Future Shops, 2 Best Buys, and a Staples.

Just seemed like an odd way to try and sell a technical product.

Banshee


----------



## nedjer

Android phones overtook Apple phones two months ago and have the largest and fastest growing market share.

Was reading the projections on tablets today. They're merely cleaning up on the earl adopters for now. By 2015 there's gonna be 274m tablets worldwide. Android will be the market leader by then and the Appless and proprietary will be less than fond memories.


----------



## IronWolf

Banshee16 said:


> Depends which reviews you read.  I've read several reviews by tech journalists that seem to consistently ommit important information.  The device *is* getting updated quickly.  Don't just read the press....read user accounts, and actually look at the devices.




Very true.  I haven't picked one up to play with it, so my knowledge about it is very filtered.


----------



## falcarrion

nedjer said:


> Android phones overtook Apple phones two months ago and have the largest and fastest growing market share.
> 
> Was reading the projections on tablets today. They're merely cleaning up on the earl adopters for now. By 2015 there's gonna be 274m tablets worldwide. Android will be the market leader by then and the Appless and proprietary will be less than fond memories.




Android should be taking over the market. There are more types of android phones than Iphones. But if you took each company selling android phones and compared their phone sales ( one company at a time) against Apple Iphone you get a different picture.  Heres some info on iphone sales for the last three months.


In the last three months, Apple sold a whopping 8.75 million iPhones. That’s a jump of 90% from the same period last year. The last three months also made up Apple’s best non-Christmas quarter ever! Needless to say, Apple is now swimming in cash from the sale of all those phones: They made $5.3 billion in revenue, or an average of $600 per phone. Which is a huge chunk of the total $13.5 billion in revenue. And that growth, 131 percent over the year ago quarter, is insane.


----------



## falcarrion

I found this when reading an article on the Notion Ink Adam tablet.

 Battery Life

Apple iPad 2                                          10:26 
Apple iPad                                              9:33 
Notion Ink Adam (reflective / no backlight)  8:38 
Motorola Xoom                                        8:20 
T-Mobile G-Slate                                      8:18 
Archos 101                                              7:20 
RIM BlackBerry PlayBook                           7:01 
Acer Iconia Tab A500                                6:55 
Samsung Galaxy Tab                                 6:09 
Notion Ink Adam (transflective / with backlight) 5:52 
Dell Streak 7                                             3:26


----------



## Janx

Sounds like ipad is a better piece of hardware with a better price.

I also saw a recent article on google news, that devs are switching back to focus on apple, away from android, due to lesser interest in android.

To my eye, any problem with ipad is probably due to apple enforcing artificial constraints (allowed apps) than any mechanical problem.

The android side has all the opportunity to dominate, less regulation on the software side.  Ironically, its the hardware that seems to be missing its chance.


----------



## IronWolf

Janx said:


> The android side has all the opportunity to dominate, less regulation on the software side.  Ironically, its the hardware that seems to be missing its chance.




The early Android tablets were all having to run an OS that was not really designed for a tablet.  I think this had a factor in slowing some of their early sales.  With Honeycomb I would expect the Android tablets to become a little more refined and polished.

I suspect given a bit more time there will be some more serious Android tablet competitors to the iPad.  But for the moment the iPad is definitely the one to beat and has a significant head start.


----------



## Lalato

Here's a review of the Playbook.

It's unfinished, but we definitely want more: Ars reviews RIM's PlayBook

Very promising, but not an iPad killer. Give it another iteration.


----------



## nedjer

falcarrion said:


> Android should be taking over the market. There are more types of android phones than Iphones. But if you took each company selling android phones and compared their phone sales ( one company at a time) against Apple Iphone you get a different picture.  Heres some info on iphone sales for the last three months.
> 
> 
> In the last three months, Apple sold a whopping 8.75 million iPhones. That’s a jump of 90% from the same period last year. The last three months also made up Apple’s best non-Christmas quarter ever! Needless to say, Apple is now swimming in cash from the sale of all those phones: They made $5.3 billion in revenue, or an average of $600 per phone. Which is a huge chunk of the total $13.5 billion in revenue. And that growth, 131 percent over the year ago quarter, is insane.




I've understated the slice of profits and influence the iPhone will have for a while yet, but the iPad has a few concerns down the road, e.g. its tablet rivals are its main manufacturers. Suits them to sell on iPhones for now, but two or three years down the line. Then there's the immense slice of the market which can afford Android, but can't afford Apple as it stands . . .


----------



## IronWolf

Lalato said:


> Here's a review of the Playbook.
> 
> It's unfinished, but we definitely want more: Ars reviews RIM's PlayBook
> 
> Very promising, but not an iPad killer. Give it another iteration.




Of course today Slashdot was posting an article about the inevitable demise of RIM.

RIP, RIM | ITworld

Yes, I know only one article and because it says it doesn't make it true....


----------



## Relique du Madde

IronWolf said:


> Of course today Slashdot was posting an article about the inevitable demise of RIM.
> 
> RIP, RIM | ITworld
> 
> Yes, I know only one article and because it says it doesn't make it true....




I won't count them as being dead yet.  Since Blackberry OS is on the downward slide, what might be extremely profitable for them would be to switch to creating WM7 or Android powered Blackberry devices.  Considering that Blackberry already an established business phone, their lending their brand to a rival OS would actually be quite beneficial, maybe even more so then Nokia's joining the ranks of the WM7 army.


----------



## IronWolf

Relique du Madde said:


> I won't count them as being dead yet.  Since Blackberry OS is on the downward slide, what might be extremely profitable for them would be to switch to creating WM7 or Android powered Blackberry devices.  Considering that Blackberry already an established business phone, their lending their brand to a rival OS would actually be quite beneficial, maybe even more so then Nokia's joining the ranks of the WM7 army.




Yeah, I wouldn't count them down for the count either.  While I think more and more mid to small sized businesses are moving away from them, they seem to be the device of choice for the federal government which could keep tem going for a good while.


----------



## Fast Learner

The cheapo stylus I picked up for around that $4 price point was a complete waste of $4: the tip was so rubbery that it effectively stuck to the screen, making writing impossible.

I predict that RIM is toast for a whole variety of reasons. The fact that the company has two co-CEOs and three co-COOs is itself a very, very bad sign.


----------



## IronWolf

Fast Learner said:


> The cheapo stylus I picked up for around that $4 price point was a complete waste of $4: the tip was so rubbery that it effectively stuck to the screen, making writing impossible.




That sucks.  The Targus I bought seems okay so far.  I have only used it once since I bought it on game night.  Worked well though.  Nothing to compare it to though.


----------



## John Crichton

Fast Learner said:


> I predict that RIM is toast for a whole variety of reasons. The fact that the company has two co-CEOs and three co-COOs is itself a very, very bad sign.



Couldn't agree more.



Fast Learner said:


> The cheapo stylus I picked up for around that $4 price point was a complete waste of $4: the tip was so rubbery that it effectively stuck to the screen, making writing impossible.
> 
> 
> IronWolf said:
> 
> 
> 
> That sucks.  The Targus I bought seems okay so far.  I have only used it once since I bought it on game night.  Worked well though.  Nothing to compare it to though.
Click to expand...


Gah.  I wish I could let y'all borrow my extra stylus.  Loving it so far and it's held up well for 2 weeks now and a dozen plus meetings.


----------



## Janx

BB might not be dead, it's certainly trying to get a resurgence with its advertising targeting normal people (BB IM for chatting to friends?  providing they own a BB?)

I had 2 BB curves.  the browser sucked.  the email reader sucked compared to the iThings.  Maybe newer model was better, but I should have hoped all their products used the same codebase.

Given that the BB Playbook didn't ship with email, that's pretty short sighted.  The email client is the FIRST thing it should have had.


On Styluses:
why would a stylus wear out in 2 weeks?  It's a piece of plastic with a rubber tip. What're you doing, using it as a q-tip?  Incidently, what are you using it on?  a hand-writing app, or sketching app?  being able to hand-write notes, with diagrams would be pretty nice (so would OCR, even the Grafiti stuff palm had).


----------



## IronWolf

Janx said:


> On Styluses:
> Incidently, what are you using it on?  a hand-writing app, or sketching app?  being able to hand-write notes, with diagrams would be pretty nice (so would OCR, even the Grafiti stuff palm had).




I am using it on NotesPlus.


----------



## Banshee16

IronWolf said:


> Of course today Slashdot was posting an article about the inevitable demise of RIM.
> 
> RIP, RIM | ITworld
> 
> Yes, I know only one article and because it says it doesn't make it true....






IronWolf said:


> Of course today Slashdot was posting an article about the inevitable demise of RIM.
> 
> RIP, RIM | ITworld
> 
> Yes, I know only one article and because it says it doesn't make it true....




Like any other prediction, it has a 50% chance of being right, and a 50% chance of being wrong.

I wouldn't credit it worth anything more than the paper it's written on (metaphorically speaking).

I'm one of those users who went from Blackberry to iPhone, and will then be going back when my contract is up (who, according to the article, don't exist).  For work purposes, I think the best combo at this point is a Blackberry with a touch tablet.  Honestly, I barely even use the e-mail capabilities of the iPhone because they lack critical capabilities that my Bold had (and that I used every day).  I really wasn't expecting that.  When I bought the iPhone, I was so excited by all the neat things it could do, and the touch interface, that by the the time I realized all the features I'd lost, I'd passed the 30 minute talk time window that my phone company gives before you're stuck with the device.  That was my bad, and my responsibility as a consumer.  But it doesn't take away from the fact that I've experienced buyer's remorse since then.

And I'm not the only one I know who's experienced that.  I've talked to several people who either moved back to Blackberry, or ended up keeping a Blackberry for work and messaging, and an iPhone for their personal phone/toy.

My big concern with the iPhone was worry that I couldn't type as fast as on the Blackberry.  I've adapted, and can pretty  much type as fast.  But the errors.....the errors!  Both from just accidentally touching the wrong key, having no tactile feedback, and Apple's terrible auto correct technology, it takes far longer.  Simple stuff like....I don't know.......if the server sends me e-mails as they arrive in my e-mail account, how about you let me review the e-mail and if I respond then delete it, give me a choice about whether to delete it just from my mobile device or also from the server?  But no......I delete an e-mail and it's gone from the e-mail server as well.  This was an expensive error, when I accidentally deleted 2 weeks of client e-mails, thinking I was just clearing them from my phone, and getting back to the office and realizing they were all gone from my computer.

I still chuckle at the confusion and worry that resulted when auto correct "fixed" a message I was sending my wife when I was leaving the gym, from "getting changed, on way home" to "getting hanged on way home".....needless to say, that worried her.   And it wasn't a typo, because the little auto correct window popped up (this was early on, before I realized how it worked).

How about if I book a client meeting into my calendar, including my address, and in the notes field, I add the client's phone number.  You'd think that, if I'm on the road, and I'm caught in traffic and am going to be a few minutes late, I could simply go to the calendar, click on the phone number in the notes, and have it call the client?  Of course not.  I have to look at the notes, then go back to the home screen, then go to my phone and type in the number.   Not convenient at all when on the run.  With the Blackberry, all you do is go into your calendar, see the phone number, click on it, and it calls.  Easy.

I've been too scared to try the banking apps, not knowing whether the phone is secure enough to do it safely.

When I play music on it, it doesn't *sound* better than music being played on my Blackberry.  Because the device is locked down, I can't seem to trade files between two devices via Bluetooth.  With my Blackberry, it's easy.  Make the connection, click, send, and the files are moving right over.

For that matter, the Bluetooth on the 9700 just worked.  Period.  With everything (with everything I tried to connect it to, that is....3 headsets, 3 or 4 models of phones from different manufacturers, the Ford Sync system).  No muss, not fuss.  With the iPhone, it's hit and miss.  It can be sitting right beside a headset that worked yesterday and refuse to form a connection.  And the manner in which it works with Sync is miserable.  

It's better at playing movies due to the bigger screen.  But.......I was using a Bold 9700, which had a very small screen.  I'm sure things would be different with a device like the Torch.  Admittedly, more websites have versions of their videos that work through the browser through the iPhone.  With the Blackberry, it was harder to find website videos that worked correctly.

Lots of things with the iPhone 4 browser were better....but with the latest OS updates, the WebKit browser on the 9700 was really not bad at all.  Pages are laid out correctly, you can click to zoom, scroll with the track pad to where you want to go, and click.  With the iPhone.....yeah, it's pretty, you see websites display very well.  But how often do I end up going off to another page, because I was pinching to zoom, and inadvertently I hit a link I hadn't seen, when I was trying to zoom in.  Then I have to hit back, which sometimes works, and sometimes skips the page I was on, and sometimes goes back two pages.

And really. Steve.  Steve.  How difficult is it to put "find text in page" into your browser?  Really.  Blackberry, the "infererior" device, has been doing this for years.  And it works.  Very well.  There have been 4 generations of iPhone, and that feature still isn't there, unless you go and buy a clumsy add-on app, or download a new browser such as Mercury.

Copy/paste is another weakness.  Yes, it's now supported....but it takes me 3 times as long to do as it did before.

There are more apps.........but given I don't play a lot of games on the device, how many fart apps, or magic 8 ball apps, or any of those kinds of things do I need?  Several of the business apps just tend to work better on the Blackberry...like ones for tracking mileage driven on sales calls.

There are definitely some cool ones.  The app store has great variety.  As a portable computer, the iPhone hands down beats the iPhone.  But....with the advent of tablets, I think I'd prefer the bigger screen of a tablet.  So, in the next round, I suspect I'd use a Blackberry as my work communication device, and a tablet for my personal computer (for sales calls).

Both my iPhone and Blackberry crash.  So it's not like either device is perfect there.  Both of them have locked up at times.

The GPS on the big screen of the iPhone works much better than that on the Blackberry.  MUCH better.  It just works.  Which is really nice.  With  my Blackberry, maybe something was wrong with it, but sitting outside my office, it could sometimes take 10 minutes to pick up a GPS signal, and I'm in a city of a million people.  It's not that we lack coverage.

I'm not going to get into how much I hate iTunes.  I'm using it on Windows 7, an OS that has been flawless for me in the last year.  No crashes, runs fast etc.  Every bloody iTunes update I download from Apple turns into a headache, because it never seems to update correctly, always generates errors, and the last time I updated it, three weeks ago, it corrupted my Windows Installer utility, and I had to do a repair install of Windows.  This hasn't happened with any other program and I'm installing and uninstalling stuff all the time.  Unfortunately, I don't have a choice about using it, because Apple shoves it down our throats.  RiM, and (I think) Google, allow us to load files onto our phones using Windows Explorer, which is way easier and faster.

My business partner is a Mac fanboy.....but as much as he trashes PC technology, and makes fun of my big 17" Toshiba Satellite laptop that I use during meetings, when we had a client meeting yesterday, about 200' away and down a floor from the wireless access point, I had 5 bars of signal strength, and his iPad 2 he brought for the meeting had....zero.  And it was a Mac Time Capsule being used as the access point.  So you'd think he'd have the advantage.

I got excited when the iPhone 4 came out.  Friends bought the iPhone 4.  My sister and her fiance bought the iPhone 4.  My business partner bought the iPhone 4.  My wife bought the iPhone 4.  I thought at first that I would get an iPod Touch 4th Gen, and keep my Blackberry....so I did....tried the iPod Touch, realized I could type pretty quick in the tests I did, realized all the "toy" things it could do were pretty cool, but it was annoying that it lost connectivity any place there wasn't a WiFi hotspot, and deciced to return it, and change phones.  Having been using it for 6 or 7 months now, my relationship with my iPhone 4 is a love/hate thing.

For everything it does that's cool, there's basic functionality it doesn't provide, that, IMO, is necessary for anyone who wants to call it a work device.

It's prettier.  It's shinier.  There's a better choice of games.  It's got Facetime.....which I've used maybe 4 times since I bought the phone, and haven't touched since.

Anyways, I don't think that Blackberry is the bestest ever.  But for hardcore work and communications, I find it a much better *tool*.  I haven't used an Android device yet, so I'm not going to complain about Android.  From everything I've heard, Android devices are actually pretty good.  All the hardcore technical people I know (network admins, server administrators, security technicians etc.) seem to prefer Android, saying it's the best mobile OS out there, and the devices are superior to Blackberry and iOS.  I don't know, given I haven't tried them.  But I might give it a try in the future.

I'm not even saying the iPhone sucks.  There are several things I like about my iPhone.  But I do get annoyed by articles that seem to have very one sided takes on these devices or the companies making them.  They've all got their purposes, they've all got their advantages, and they've all got their problems.  Pick your poison.  I think if I wasn't in a situation where I had to use the device so much for messaging with clients, I'd probably like it better.

I'd be interested in knowing if there were figures on the real growth of iPhone usage.  Since moving to the iPhone, and talking to other owners, I've become exposed to a whole community of people who in many cases replace their old iPhone every time the next one comes out.  So if X million iPhones are sold in a year, how many of those are new customers, and how many are existing iPhone users upgrading to the new phone?  Previously, I've usually gone 2-3 years between upgrades.

The iPhone may be the most popular device.....but from a technical perspective, I don't personally feel that it's always the *best* device for *all* users and all situations.  

Banshee

P.S. Janx....I went from a BB original to a BB Curve to a BB Bold.....and the devices *did* change from one to the other.  The browser on the Bold was head and shoulders above that on the Curve.  Still didn't display things as nicely as on the iPhone, but it was way better than previous Blackberries, and perfectly useable..the browser on the Curve was just terrible.

I suspect the lack of an e-mail client (webmail services still work) on the Playbook was due to the need to get the device to the market sooner rather than later, and the fact that the whole thing had to be rebuilt, given the change in OS to QNX.  RiM is excellent about supporting their products with updates, so if they say the e-mail is coming, well, the e-mail is coming.  Unfortunately, it doesn't help that some people focus on the negative that it's not there on launch day.  And yes, it's less than optimal.  But so is taking the chance that interest in the device would diminish if they waited another 4 months to launch it, once e-mail and calendar were available, and it was now in competition with like 4 other new Honeycomb tablets, plus the iPad (and however many other devices there will be at that time).

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16

My business partner picked up his iPad 2 a few weeks back, and asked if I knew of any apps that would work with a stylus to allow him to write notes in a meeting, like with a virtual pen, and have those notes recorded into a regular text document.

Anybody seen something like that?

Banshee


----------



## Janx

like Banshee, I'd certainly be interested in something that good OCR my chicken scratch with a stylus on an iPad into true text.

Sounds like the newer BBs have some improvements.

Per Banshee's tale of limited time to change his mind, my wife had the AT&T Tilt (windows mobile) for 28 days before it bricked, and she swapped it for a refund and the first BB curve.  She liked the keyboard, but her iPod Touch was better for everything else (and that was before the AppStore).

I turn off the auto-correct on the iThings.  I'd rather have a typo than what it gets wrong.

I agree, copy/paste, or even block delete is a PITA

Text selection is a PITA, it just doesn't work the way I keep trying it...

Personally, I love that IMAP/exhange connection means what I see on my phone is exactly what's in my mailbox, and a delete means delete.  Double-deleting sucks.

I love contact syncing with GoogleSync means what's on my phone is on my gmail, and if my phone dies, I can restore it quick (not exclusive to iPhone, I had it set up on my BB, and my new android).

My work BB Curve died after a year, so they got me a DroidX.  Big screen.  I don't run any personal apps on it (no facebook, games).  I can get my mail on it and see links an documents on it.  I'm still investigating what other apps would be actually useful to me for work.

Since I got my iPad, I found that I use apps on my iPhone less.  Odds are good, I use apps while on the couch watching TV, and I prefer a bigger screen, that's still not as heavy or plugged in as a laptop (laptop batteries are for UPS, not constant usage in my world).

This last point, agrrees with banshee, a tablet plus a dumb cellphone could be sufficient.  A tablet with dataplan, VOIP, and a bluetooth earpiece could replace the cell phone...


----------



## falcarrion

Banshee16 said:


> My business partner picked up his iPad 2 a few weeks back, and asked if I knew of any apps that would work with a stylus to allow him to write notes in a meeting, like with a virtual pen, and have those notes recorded into a regular text document.
> 
> Anybody seen something like that?
> 
> Banshee




If your just looking for an app to record your hand writing the check out
 notes plus.

If your looking for a app that changes hand writing to typed print I'll look for what I can find.


----------



## John Crichton

Banshee16 said:


> My business partner picked up his iPad 2 a few weeks back, and asked if I knew of any apps that would work with a stylus to allow him to write notes in a meeting, like with a virtual pen, and have those notes recorded into a regular text document.
> 
> Anybody seen something like that?





Janx said:


> like Banshee, I'd certainly be interested in something that good OCR my chicken scratch with a stylus on an iPad into true text



That's the holy grail of notes taking apps that just isn't around yet.  Not the way we all want it, at any rate.

I'm all over that app/upgrade when it hits.  The demand is absolutely there!


----------



## falcarrion

John Crichton said:


> That's the holy grail of notes taking apps that just isn't around yet.  Not the way we all want it, at any rate.
> 
> I'm all over that app/upgrade when it hits.  The demand is absolutely there!




Check out the app called writepad


----------



## Janx

this thread is sort of all over the place....it's got:
product strategy comparison
product comparison
iThing app reviews
why Apple sux

Here's a new segment, recommend me some useful apps for my android DroidX.  Not a tablet, but it's got a pretty big screen.

I don't care about games, but I do care about useful tools.  I run a development team.  I care about email, remote desktop access, file transfer, visio diagrams, opening Office documents (and maybe editing them), spreadsheets, task management, etc.


----------



## Relique du Madde

Janx said:


> I don't care about games, but I do care about useful tools.  I run a development team.  I care about email, remote desktop access, file transfer, visio diagrams, opening Office documents (and maybe editing them), spreadsheets, task management, etc.




Quick Office is very good same with Thinking Space.  Evernote is reportedly very good for note taking, however I have yet to use it since requires a name and password... and I'm lazy.

Other good apps:
Drop Box

Autodesk Sketchbook Mobile  (There's even an audocad app!)
Photoshop Express


----------



## John Crichton

Janx said:


> Here's a new segment, recommend me some useful apps for my android DroidX.  Not a tablet, but it's got a pretty big screen.



Please start another thread for that.  It really is a separate topic and phones are definitely not tablets.

Thanks.


----------



## Relique du Madde

John Crichton said:


> Please start another thread for that.  It really is a separate topic and phones are definitely not tablets.
> 
> Thanks.




So it's alright to talk about apps which can be ran on all iDevices within this thread, but not android apps which can also be ran on android phones or tablets?!?   That's funny considering that both iFans and fanDroids love saying that their rivalOS is just an phoneOS scaled to tablet size.

Also, the apps that I mentioned were one I used on my Droid 2 as well as my Xoom.


----------



## IronWolf

Janx said:


> I agree, copy/paste, or even block delete is a PITA
> 
> Text selection is a PITA, it just doesn't work the way I keep trying it...
> .




Yeah, it is taking me a bit to get used to text selection and block deleting.  I am getting better.


----------



## falcarrion

Janx said:


> this thread is sort of all over the place....it's got:
> product strategy comparison
> product comparison
> iThing app reviews
> why Apple sux
> 
> Here's a new segment, recommend me some useful apps for my android DroidX.  Not a tablet, but it's got a pretty big screen.
> 
> I don't care about games, but I do care about useful tools.  I run a development team.  I care about email, remote desktop access, file transfer, visio diagrams, opening Office documents (and maybe editing them), spreadsheets, task management, etc.




I started this thread to discuss tablets no matter what os they ran.  And so far things have ran soothly. The great thing that has happened so far is that we have gotten more info out about tablets to the people who have them, and those who do not and those considering getting one. Discussing phones is best left to another thread.


----------



## John Crichton

Relique du Madde said:


> So it's alright to talk about apps which can be ran on all iDevices within this thread, but not android apps which can also be ran on android phones or tablets?!?   That's funny considering that both iFans and fanDroids love saying that their rivalOS is just an phoneOS scaled to tablet size.
> 
> Also, the apps that I mentioned were one I used on my Droid 2 as well as my Xoom.



It was just a request, man.  Trying to keep it to tablets.  

You wanna turn this into a iFans and fanDroids thing go ahead but I'm neither of those.  I just love me some new tech.


----------



## JoeGKushner

In terms of tablets, with Amazon having its own Android store, does anyone think that will have an influx on the amount of aps on Android? It seems that now the answer is no but...

Is there a second party ap store for Apple similiar to that?


----------



## Banshee16

JoeGKushner said:


> In terms of tablets, with Amazon having its own Android store, does anyone think that will have an influx on the amount of aps on Android? It seems that now the answer is no but...
> 
> Is there a second party ap store for Apple similiar to that?




I *think* you can get apps outside of the app store if your unit is jailbroken.  Isn't that the point behind doing it?  I haven't done it myself, so I'm not speaking from experience.....just seems you hear about jailbreaking all the time.

Banshee


----------



## falcarrion

JoeGKushner said:


> In terms of tablets, with Amazon having its own Android store, does anyone think that will have an influx on the amount of aps on Android? It seems that now the answer is no but...
> 
> Is there a second party ap store for Apple similiar to that?




I beleive it will in the future. It depends on how many are dupes between the two sites.

If you jail break an Ipad the jail break loads Cydia which is the unoffical app site. Remember jailbreaking can brick your ipad so do it at your own risk.

http://modmyi.com/cydia/search.php


----------



## John Crichton

JoeGKushner said:


> In terms of tablets, with Amazon having its own Android store, does anyone think that will have an influx on the amount of aps on Android? It seems that now the answer is no but...



I think it will be a boon in the future when the hardware and software catch up.  Amazon being in the game is a really big deal.


----------



## Janx

falcarrion said:


> I started this thread to discuss tablets no matter what os they ran.  And so far things have ran soothly. The great thing that has happened so far is that we have gotten more info out about tablets to the people who have them, and those who do not and those considering getting one. Discussing phones is best left to another thread.




It's OK dude.  This has been a good thread.  and if you edited my mention of the word DroidX, it would have qualified by your standard.

So, what apps has Android got that make it useful.  There are business folks using iPads to do stuff.  What's out there to make it compelling to use an android tablet (ignoring battery longevity concerns)?

Such info will inform my use of an Android device that happens to be a phone, but would also inform people thinking of getting a Apad, instead of an iPad.


----------



## Janx

John Crichton said:


> I think it will be a boon in the future when the hardware and software catch up.  Amazon being in the game is a really big deal.




In what ways will it be a boon?

I don't like seeing the marketplaces, fractured, I like a centralized face.  Though having the agency running the store NOT be the agency selling competing software would be nice.

Allegedly, Apple is going to shift focus on # of apps in store to quality and fairness.  Hopefully that means reducing how many apps come in that do the same thing (fart apps).  I suppose there might be issues with older apps being unsupported, that take up a slot that a newcomer could fill.

But I don't like Apple rejecting apps that solve legitimate problems for me, solely because it competes with an Apple product (Sony Reader), or takes them out of the chain of control (forced usage of iTunes vs. direct transfer of media to apps).

I do like how Amazon's Kindle App is on darn near every device, meaning you aren't locked into their hardware if you buy from them.  It really bugged me with the eReader's that each store was making their own reader and store and tightly integrating them.  That basically meant when that store goes kaput, you are hoping your old hardware never fails if you want access to your books.

I reckon, that in theory, if amazon ran the store and did NOT make a competing hardware or software product, they'd be well positioned as the champion of "good, safe apps in a fair marketplace"


----------



## falcarrion

Janx said:


> In what ways will it be a boon?
> 
> I don't like seeing the marketplaces, fractured, I like a centralized face.  Though having the agency running the store NOT be the agency selling competing software would be nice.
> 
> Allegedly, Apple is going to shift focus on # of apps in store to quality and fairness.  Hopefully that means reducing how many apps come in that do the same thing (fart apps).  I suppose there might be issues with older apps being unsupported, that take up a slot that a newcomer could fill.
> 
> But I don't like Apple rejecting apps that solve legitimate problems for me, solely because it competes with an Apple product (Sony Reader), or takes them out of the chain of control (forced usage of iTunes vs. direct transfer of media to apps).
> 
> I do like how Amazon's Kindle App is on darn near every device, meaning you aren't locked into their hardware if you buy from them.  It really bugged me with the eReader's that each store was making their own reader and store and tightly integrating them.  That basically meant when that store goes kaput, you are hoping your old hardware never fails if you want access to your books.
> 
> I reckon, that in theory, if amazon ran the store and did NOT make a competing hardware or software product, they'd be well positioned as the champion of "good, safe apps in a fair marketplace"




I beleive the boon will come from the fact that Amazon is so established and well known. Now if your already familar with android then the Android Market is known for sure. Thats two great sites to look for android apps. Where with the Ipad you only have Itunes, unless you jail break it then you have Cydia. 
You would know better then me though as I don't own any android products. Thats why we need people like you who do. 

I do agree with you about Apple and apps they reject. The reason maybe legit. but we may never know the real reason. Thats why so many people jail break it. The Ipad can do so much more if it is jail broken. Not alot of people know that you can mirror the display on a jail broken ipad like you can on the Ipad2.

Amazon did a smart move with there apps. Being able to read there books on various devices is great for us consumers.


----------



## IronWolf

Janx said:


> In what ways will it be a boon?
> 
> I don't like seeing the marketplaces, fractured, I like a centralized face.  Though having the agency running the store NOT be the agency selling competing software would be nice.




I think the only place fractured is really hurting is the Android arena.  With so many different types of hardware, different tweaks to the Android OS to get it to run on manufacturer's X, Y or Z hardware it becomes harder to have a uniform presence.  If I trade my HTC hardware in for some Motorola my experience is apt to be different even though both run Android OS's.

Whereas Apple has their iOS and their hardware and has that consistency.  Even between the iPhone and iPad I get some consistency.

I like seeing both Android and Apple in the game.  It keeps the companies working to improve and keeps anyone from getting too comfortable in their spot.  This pushes the hardware envelope and software envelope.


----------



## John Crichton

Janx said:


> It's OK dude.  This has been a good thread.  and if you edited my mention of the word DroidX, it would have qualified by your standard.
> 
> So, what apps has Android got that make it useful.  There are business folks using iPads to do stuff.  What's out there to make it compelling to use an android tablet (ignoring battery longevity concerns)?
> 
> Such info will inform my use of an Android device that happens to be a phone, but would also inform people thinking of getting a Apad, instead of an iPad.



You may not have intended to do it, but this is a backdoor request of the same thing trying to be avoided.  Want to talk about Droid phone apps?  Please start a separate thread about them.

The DroidX is not a tablet nor are the apps created for Android to the point where they work equally well on phones and tablets.  I'm all for talking about Droid apps, I have a Droid Incredible.  Just not in this thread unless we are specifically talking about tablet software.  Overlap is fine but you are asking to go the other way.

More importantly, if you are looking to get more info about Droid apps for phones a separate thread will serve that desire well.


----------



## IronWolf

Interesting FAQ went up on the NotesPlus site today regarding which stylus to use with it:

Notes + Which stylus should you use with Notes Plus?


----------



## falcarrion

On Saturday I contacted notes plus support about my problems being a southpaw.

Hello,
I recently bought your app. Even though I like your app I do have some problems with it.
Being left handed, when I write on it I move my hand across the screen. This sometimes causes the buttons at the top to open when I don't want them to. What I would like for you to add is a palm rest tab, like you have at the bottom on the left side for us lefty's. Or maybe make a new app designed for us lefty's.
thankyou,

Matthew

Hi Matthew, 


I plan to support left hander in next version. Although I have a general idea how a left hander would write (I myself is a right hander), it would be useful for me if you could send me a video or screenshot illustrate how you would write. With these information, I hope I can make the left hand support in one shot (next version).


Thanks,
Viet


This website would help you better than any thing I could send you
The Left Handed Writers Page

Matt

Thanks so much, Matthew.
Viet


----------



## John Crichton

Nice support!

And good to know about those styli if/when mine dies.


----------



## IronWolf

Definitely nice to see the fast, responsive support for NotesPlus!


----------



## Fast Learner

This applies to the iPad as much as the iPhone, so I figure it's ok to respond.

First let me say that iOS sucks in many ways and I'm regularly irritated with it. That said, some responses that will likely help you with iOS:



Banshee16 said:


> I still chuckle at the confusion and worry that resulted when auto correct "fixed" a message I was sending my wife when I was leaving the gym, from "getting changed, on way home" to "getting hanged on way home".....needless to say, that worried her.   And it wasn't a typo, because the little auto correct window popped up (this was early on, before I realized how it worked).



It was auto-corrected, but it was also a typo, in that auto-correct suggestions only match the number characters you type and their positions. In this case you likely typed something like "janged" or "yanged" and, knowing that J/Y are close to H it suggested "hanged." If you'd typed "cjanged" or "cyanged" it would have suggested "changed." Auto-correction can still totally suck and often does, but I figure it's worth noting how the tech works.



> How about if I book a client meeting into my calendar, including my address, and in the notes field, I add the client's phone number.  You'd think that, if I'm on the road, and I'm caught in traffic and am going to be a few minutes late, I could simply go to the calendar, click on the phone number in the notes, and have it call the client?  Of course not.  I have to look at the notes, then go back to the home screen, then go to my phone and type in the number.   Not convenient at all when on the run.  With the Blackberry, all you do is go into your calendar, see the phone number, click on it, and it calls.  Easy.



Hmm. The built-in Calendar app does do that. I just added this event with a phone number in the Notes section and it's immediately hotlinked to placing a call. The same happens with calendar items I add in Gmail and Outlook:







A: Anything that looks like a phone number will be highlighted (along with email addresses, urls, and street addresses).

B: Tapping on it pops up a dialog that allows you to call the number tapped.



> I've been too scared to try the banking apps, not knowing whether the phone is secure enough to do it safely.



You might not, but no lesser security organization than Sophos considers their security to be comparable.



> How difficult is it to put "find text in page" into your browser?  Really.  Blackberry, the "infererior" device, has been doing this for years.  And it works.  Very well.  There have been 4 generations of iPhone, and that feature still isn't there, unless you go and buy a clumsy add-on app, or download a new browser such as Mercury.



While it took until iOS 4 was released a year ago, in-page searching is definitely available in the built-in Mobile Safari app; you just need to know how to use it (it's somewhat obscure). I used it on the main ENWorld page for this example:






A: On any page click in the Google search field in the upper-right of the browser and type your search.

B: An "On this page" bar will appear right above the keyboard.

C: Swipe up on it and the keyboard will disappear and the in-page search options will be displayed (multi-word search and partial matches can provide additional options). Tap on the search term.

D: The page is again displayed with the first match highlighted.

E: Use the Next and Previous buttons in the newly-visible toolbar at the bottom of the browser to navigate from match to match.

---

Again, plenty of problems, and I agree with several of your complaints wholeheartedly, but I figured I'd provide some tips on the ones that are solvable/solved.


----------



## Janx

good points on the how-to of iOS.  I was puzzled about someone saying the iThing didn't highlight phone#s.  It's always done that for as long as I can remember.  If it saw a phone# in text (even on a web page, it would be hyperlinked and would trigger a dial prompt.

I verified it works in the calendar, and the calendar did link the address to launch the map program for me, as well.

My BB would do that with calendar events (handy because I dial into con-calls, so those meeting reminders have the # to dial, so that saves me much hassle.

My Android device, on the other hand, did not highlight the phone number in the meeting reminder.  That last might not be important on a tablet (having no phone feature).

I am intrigued by the Notes+, but I would love to have an OCR mode, as I am less interested in reading my own writing, than reading what I wrote.

Does anybody in this thread have an Android tablet?  There's a few of us who have an Android phone, but that's not entirely the same thing.

If it turns out the majority of us have iPads, and not Apads, that's a clue as to the market direction.


----------



## IronWolf

Janx said:


> Does anybody in this thread have an Android tablet?  There's a few of us who have an Android phone, but that's not entirely the same thing.
> 
> If it turns out the majority of us have iPads, and not Apads, that's a clue as to the market direction.




I do not have one.  When the iPad was announced I said to myself I was going to wait for an Android to come out that could do more for less.  Practically mocking those snapping up the iPad.  Yeah, didn't happen - Android tabs that came out that were cheaper were not that great and the ones that came out that could keep up with the iPad or do more were as expensive or more so.

So when the iPad 2 came out I picked up an iPad Gen1 on the cheap.  Haven't regretted it.  In fact I am pretty sure I wouldn't have regretted shelling out for the iPad 2 at this point.  Things work like they are supposed to, I get great battery life and I have access to the currently popular apps.

Now I am sure over the upcoming month or years someone with an Android tablet will hit a winning combination - but I am happily using my iPad until then.


----------



## JoeGKushner

How long is each 'generation' expected to last? iPad1 didn't make it that long (much like the original iPhone) but I see a lot of parallels with PCs which can last from a few years to a much longer scope depending on its use.


----------



## IronWolf

JoeGKushner said:


> How long is each 'generation' expected to last? iPad1 didn't make it that long (much like the original iPhone) but I see a lot of parallels with PCs which can last from a few years to a much longer scope depending on its use.




I am not sure what Apple's announced or unannounced plans are, but I suspect they will release near yearly in this early phase.  In order to not be passed by the Android tablets as they start to catchup Apple will likely feel the pressure to add new features in a timely manner.

I am not sure how long it will take for the older generations to not be useful anymore.  I am hoping mine lasts for at least a while, though I can easily see myself upgrading to a generation 3 when they are released and passing this one down to IronPup.  We'll see how that plays out.


----------



## falcarrion

JoeGKushner said:


> How long is each 'generation' expected to last? iPad1 didn't make it that long (much like the original iPhone) but I see a lot of parallels with PCs which can last from a few years to a much longer scope depending on its use.




One has to remember that Apple went out on the limb by putting out a tablet. It was so well received that compatition ensued. Once they found out what people liked and wanted and how they used it. They needed to put out a new version to stay on top. I don't see the Ipad1 being obsolete for a very long time.

As a side note: Just think if FaceTime was available on other devices such as android phones. Would this change how you talk to people?


----------



## Janx

falcarrion said:


> One has to remember that Apple went out on the limb by putting out a tablet. It was so well received that compatition ensued. Once they found out what people liked and wanted and how they used it. They needed to put out a new version to stay on top. I don't see the Ipad1 being obsolete for a very long time.
> 
> As a side note: Just think if FaceTime was available on other devices such as android phones. Would this change how you talk to people?




Yeah, the iPad1 was a no-brainer in a way.  Take an iPod Touch and put it on a bigger screen, and publicly, Apple was resistant to it for awhile.  But that might have been PR cover while they were designing one.

It's highly probably Apple will keep pumping a pad out each year.  And based on the pattern with iPhones, a given model will be supported (able to get fw updates) for 2-3 years.  The 3g went out when the iOS4 came out for iPhone4, and odds are good it'll happen to the 3gs when the new gen iPhone comes out this fall.  The iPod Touch gen1 wasn't eligble for iOS3 updates. Not getting fw updates blocks an device from the App Store for practical purposes, because Apple regularly boots apps that don't have "new" fw support, and at some point all apps will requirre newer fw to run

On FaceTime:
it's a neat idea, and obviously we've finally gotten the video phones AT&T promised us in the '60s.  However, I've used it twice on my phone.  My wife has a 3gs, can't use it on her.  It only works on other iPhone4 devices, and only on wifi which basically means "when both parties are at home or work"

I've only used the video chat on my Kinect once.  While it seemed like it would be pretty handy (and it works with PCs on MSN Messenger), the opportunities to use it were slim.

A friend of mine made a good point.  When he's on the phone, he wants is hands and eyes free (as you're already tying up his ears).  FaceTiime locks u into position.  U are stuck holding the phone so your friend can see u.  Which means u can't freely move about the house doing laundry, dishes, getting dressed or driving


----------



## falcarrion

Janx said:


> The iPod Touch gen1 wasn't eligble for iOS3 updates. Not getting fw updates blocks an device from the App Store for practical purposes, because Apple regularly boots apps that don't have "new" fw support, and at some point all apps will requirre newer fw to run




My Itouch gen 1 has 3.1.3 iOS. As long as developers make there app compatiable with 3.0  then I will not have any problems.


----------



## Fast Learner

falcarrion said:


> My Itouch gen 1 has 3.1.3 iOS. As long as developers make there app compatiable with 3.0  then I will not have any problems.




More and more apps require 4.0, which isn't surprising because (a) about 90-95% of active iOS devices are running 4.0 or later, and (b) 4.0 offers a ton of features to developers that make apps easier to write and provides access to new frameworks and phone abilities. 

All of the new development projects I've started this year target a minimum of 4.0. It's likely you'll find more and more apps that you can't run in the coming year.


----------



## falcarrion

I guess you missed my point. Just because a new unit comes out doesn't mean the older one is useless. I see a long useful life for the Ipad 1.


----------



## Fast Learner

Wasn't trying to negate your point, just providing some information on the likely "still modern" state of iOS devices. 

History thus far shows that 2.5-3 years is the point at which the older devices start to have issues, not being able to update their OS and therefore run apps. Hasn't been much history yet, though, so who knows. 

It's a very young industry, which tends to mean lots of advances that are more likely to obsolete older equipment more quickly. Nearly all of today's Windows apps will still run on XP, and many of them will still run on Win2k. That's a solid 10 year span. Windows 1 couldn't (generally) run Windows 2 apps, despite being only 2 years apart, and Windows 2 couldn't run Windows 3 apps despite only a 3 year span.

It makes sense, I think, because the most innovative ideas are likely to come early in a technology's life cycle.


----------



## Relique du Madde

Fast Learner said:


> Wasn't trying to negate your point, just providing some information on the likely "still modern" state of iOS devices.
> 
> History thus far shows that 2.5-3 years is the point at which the older devices start to have issues, not being able to update their OS and therefore run apps. Hasn't been much history yet, though, so who knows.
> 
> It's a very young industry, which tends to mean lots of advances that are more likely to obsolete older equipment more quickly. Nearly all of today's Windows apps will still run on XP, and many of them will still run on Win2k. That's a solid 10 year span. Windows 1 couldn't (generally) run Windows 2 apps, despite being only 2 years apart, and Windows 2 couldn't run Windows 3 apps despite only a 3 year span.
> 
> It makes sense, I think, because the most innovative ideas are likely to come early in a technology's life cycle.




Not really.  It depends on the nature of the device.  People expect a iMac or a PC to last between 4 to 10 years ideally before it is completely useless, hence all the innovations those machines receive reflect this nature and tend to be purely hardware or peripheral based and often take long periods of time to pan out due to their viability.  Portable devices are expected to last 2-3 years since they receive an extreme amount of abuse and could easily be damaged or lost.  This almost necessitates for their to be at least one new model every year to prevent people from waiting more than two years for their next purchase.

This may also be why the iOS "innovations" are staggered quarterly rather then having every new idevice come out in February since if your iPhone, iPod, and iPad all have the same hardware and software there is no need to purchase a new iPhone in 6 months, Pod this month or a iPad in 9, you'll just get the iPhone now, iPad next year, and hold off until one of the breaks.  However, since you know the iPod will have something your iPhone won't for another year you are more likely to cycle between the three devices every year or two due to the expectation that one of the devices will become completely obsolete every other or every third iteration.

On the android side, since the platform is so young it is hard to tell how long it takes devices seem to become completely obsolete (considering that about 25% still run 2.1 and about 10-15% run versions under 2.0.


----------



## Janx

Fast Learner said:


> Wasn't trying to negate your point, just providing some information on the likely "still modern" state of iOS devices.
> 
> History thus far shows that 2.5-3 years is the point at which the older devices start to have issues, not being able to update their OS and therefore run apps. Hasn't been much history yet, though, so who knows.
> 
> It's a very young industry, which tends to mean lots of advances that are more likely to obsolete older equipment more quickly. Nearly all of today's Windows apps will still run on XP, and many of them will still run on Win2k. That's a solid 10 year span. Windows 1 couldn't (generally) run Windows 2 apps, despite being only 2 years apart, and Windows 2 couldn't run Windows 3 apps despite only a 3 year span.
> 
> It makes sense, I think, because the most innovative ideas are likely to come early in a technology's life cycle.




As I extropolated on the iPhone, the 3g and older models can't run iOS4.  When iOS3 came out, Apple had mandated that all apps needed to certify to run with iOS3.  This causes a push-out effect of the older devices.  Sure, the apps you have will still run.  But no new updates or innovations.  Hence, the user will be tempted to upgrade.

Furthermore, as with older iPhones, the battery lifespan was about 18 months average.  My 3g was good for the 2.4 years I had it, but I could tell the battery wasn't lasting as long.  I assume the newer models have batteries that live longer, but still, as an embedded component, it's a driver towards replacement.

Additionally, as FL mentioned, portable stuff wears out faster.  Plus people are hard on things.  People drop their phones, drive off with it on top the car, let their kids play with it, have little regard for "it's raining and you're wearing $200+ in electronics".

Conversely, PCs sit around on a desk all day.  Unless you're a gamer loading in the newest graphics hogs, you'll probably be using mostly the same software as when you bought it.  Excepting the browser and its plugins (and even then, do you know how many rigs I see where they've never upgraded/patched ANYTHING).

Another odd trait I see is the casualness with which some people hop from carrier to carrier, phone to phone.  To me, investing in iOS hardware is akin to deciding on windows vs. linux.  I've got my whole NAS archictecure setup to support it.  Switching vendors would waste money on apps and music that have been purchased.  Yet some folks are buying new phones every year.  there's a cultural effect that some people are driven to keep buying the newer version.


----------



## falcarrion

The funny thing is that I can remember a time when people replaced cars every year.


----------



## Alan Shutko

Janx said:


> As I extropolated on the iPhone, the 3g and older models can't run iOS4.




Just for nitpickiness, the 3G can run iOS4, but cannot run iOS 4.3 or higher, and cannot use some features in 4.0-2.


----------



## Banshee16

falcarrion said:


> The funny thing is that I can remember a time when people replaced cars every year.




Wow.....I'm in the wrong career!  Every year?

I'm still finishing payments for the car I bought at the end of 2006..

I've seen people replace a leased vehicle every 3 years but every year?  That's a lot of $$$ 

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16

Fast Learner said:


> This applies to the iPad as much as the iPhone, so I figure it's ok to respond.
> 
> First let me say that iOS sucks in many ways and I'm regularly irritated with it. That said, some responses that will likely help you with iOS:
> 
> 
> It was auto-corrected, but it was also a typo, in that auto-correct suggestions only match the number characters you type and their positions. In this case you likely typed something like "janged" or "yanged" and, knowing that J/Y are close to H it suggested "hanged." If you'd typed "cjanged" or "cyanged" it would have suggested "changed." Auto-correction can still totally suck and often does, but I figure it's worth noting how the tech works.
> 
> 
> Hmm. The built-in Calendar app does do that. I just added this event with a phone number in the Notes section and it's immediately hotlinked to placing a call. The same happens with calendar items I add in Gmail and Outlook:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A: Anything that looks like a phone number will be highlighted (along with email addresses, urls, and street addresses).
> 
> B: Tapping on it pops up a dialog that allows you to call the number tapped.
> 
> 
> You might not, but no lesser security organization than Sophos considers their security to be comparable.
> 
> 
> While it took until iOS 4 was released a year ago, in-page searching is definitely available in the built-in Mobile Safari app; you just need to know how to use it (it's somewhat obscure). I used it on the main ENWorld page for this example:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A: On any page click in the Google search field in the upper-right of the browser and type your search.
> 
> B: An "On this page" bar will appear right above the keyboard.
> 
> C: Swipe up on it and the keyboard will disappear and the in-page search options will be displayed (multi-word search and partial matches can provide additional options). Tap on the search term.
> 
> D: The page is again displayed with the first match highlighted.
> 
> E: Use the Next and Previous buttons in the newly-visible toolbar at the bottom of the browser to navigate from match to match.
> 
> ---
> 
> Again, plenty of problems, and I agree with several of your complaints wholeheartedly, but I figured I'd provide some tips on the ones that are solvable/solved.




That's an excellent post.  I've tried some of these, and can replicate some of the tricks, but not the others.

I typically book events in Google Apps, which are then populated to my phone..  If I do it that way, the phone number is not highlighted, and not clickable.  If I book it through the phone itself, then it is.  The fact that I rarely book events on my phone is, I guess, why it hasn't worked for me in the past.

I tried putting addresses in, but they don't work.  Not clickable.

I also tried the inpage search, and haven't been able to get that to work.  I can see a highlighted grey bar that says "On This Page" but it's neither clickable or swipeable.  If I touch it, nothing happens.  If I swipe it, nothing happens.  If I keep it highlighted, and then click the search term, then it turns around and searches Google, and shows me the search results for that term, as if I'd done a search on Google.

For instance, I went to the website for a local computer store.  I found on the page "Store Hours" by looking at the page.  I then tried doing a search for "store hours", and saw the "On this page" bar.  However, after swiping and touching, none of that worked.  I then touched "Store Hours" in the suggested searches, and ended up getting a Google search results page showing "store hours" as it appears on the websites of a bunch of local retailers....none of whom were the one I had been on when I ran the search.

If it's just a matter of user skill/understanding of using the interface, fine.....but I'd still say it doesn't seem the most useable.

Is it also possible that iPhones associated with different providers may not function entirely the same, from one provider to another?  Maybe the software is slightly different?

Banshee


----------



## Relique du Madde

Banshee16 said:


> Is it also possible that iPhones associated with different providers may not function entirely the same, from one provider to another?  Maybe the software is slightly different?




From the rumors I heard, yes.    I've read that stated that the Verison iPhones suck compared to ATT&T ones.  However, its hard to say if it was pro-AT&T propaganda or not.


----------



## falcarrion

Banshee16 said:


> Wow.....I'm in the wrong career!  Every year?
> 
> I'm still finishing payments for the car I bought at the end of 2006..
> 
> I've seen people replace a leased vehicle every 3 years but every year?  That's a lot of $$$
> 
> Banshee



 that was back in the 60's.


----------



## Banshee16

falcarrion said:


> that was back in the 60's.




Oh.....ah......not that I'm a whipper snapper, but that's before I was born..

I've heard things were different back then, when my parents' generation had to walk to school, backwards, both ways, in a snowstorm, in July, getting chased by polar bears...

I'm sure some day a younger generation will say "what, what do you mean there was no internet, and no video games?  What did you do?"

I'm being entirely tongue in cheek here, just to be clear...no disrespect intended.

Banshee


----------



## falcarrion

Banshee16 said:


> Oh.....ah......not that I'm a whipper snapper, but that's before I was born..
> 
> I've heard things were different back then, when my parents' generation had to walk to school, backwards, both ways, in a snowstorm, in July, getting chased by polar bears...
> 
> I'm sure some day a younger generation will say "what, what do you mean there was no internet, and no video games?  What did you do?"
> 
> I'm being entirely tongue in cheek here, just to be clear...no disrespect intended.
> 
> Banshee



 When I was younger I used to have to get up two hours before I went to bed to get ready for school....


----------



## John Crichton

I tried to use my monitor the other day at work by pressing on the screen.


----------



## falcarrion

check this out my ipad friends.

iSense – Braille for the iPad? | PadGadget


----------



## Fast Learner

falcarrion said:


> check this out my ipad friends.
> 
> iSense – Braille for the iPad? | PadGadget




I can see it as being useful for blind users who are also deaf. For folks who are simply blind, however, the iPhone and iPad are _awesome_. I run a iOS developer group and devoted one meeting to accessibility on iOS. Several blind users were kind enough to show us how stunningly cool the platform's VoiceOver feature is and it's importance in their daily lives. 

VoiceOver not only allows you to navigate through apps and use the phone/pad like anyone else, but it also reads text on the web, in iBooks, etc. One user shared how the phone's built-in compass and maps features gave him the freedom to roam the city in a way he couldn't have imagined before (without spending many thousands of dollars on much, much clunkier hardware and software). One user passed along a joke from the pre-iPhone 3Gs/4 days: how many people does it take to help a blind man across the street? Two; one to guide the blind man and one to push his shopping cart full of assistive aids.

Video demonstration of the feature:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEDzitE2w_0"]This video demonstrates how it works[/ame]

The video towards the bottom of this page is Apple's instructions on using VoiceOver under iOS.

A video of user Justin Mann at the user group meeting I mentioned, explaining how it works for him and why it's important.


----------



## falcarrion

Fast Learner said:


> I can see it as being useful for blind users who are also deaf. For folks who are simply blind, however, the iPhone and iPad are _awesome_. I run a iOS developer group and devoted one meeting to accessibility on iOS. Several blind users were kind enough to show us how stunningly cool the platform's VoiceOver feature is and it's importance in their daily lives.
> 
> VoiceOver not only allows you to navigate through apps and use the phone/pad like anyone else, but it also reads text on the web, in iBooks, etc. One user shared how the phone's built-in compass and maps features gave him the freedom to roam the city in a way he couldn't have imagined before (without spending many thousands of dollars on much, much clunkier hardware and software). One user passed along a joke from the pre-iPhone 3Gs/4 days: how many people does it take to help a blind man across the street? Two; one to guide the blind man and one to push his shopping cart full of assistive aids.
> 
> Video demonstration of the feature:
> This video demonstrates how it works
> 
> The video towards the bottom of this page is Apple's instructions on using VoiceOver under iOS.
> 
> A video of user Justin Mann at the user group meeting I mentioned, explaining how it works for him and why it's important.




thanks for sharing. I think it is awsome when we do our part to include the handicaped.


----------



## Janx

I wasn't aware of VoiceOver.  Interesting concept, I imagine.  Without it, the iThings are pretty much useless to blind people (why buy a piece of flat plastic that you can't feel buttons to press to dial).

Based on the wording in the iSense video, it almost seems as if they were unaware of it as well, based on their premise that blind people were left out on the iThing.

Sadly, the iSense is just a video, made by some people with the means to make a slick video,  but not the means to make the technology.

A real iSense screen would likely be built into the product, not a material made of Unobtanium that is laid over the existing screen.

Additionally, given that neither iPad model has a means of recognizing "what's on top of my screen", this is just imagination-ware.

Why am I being harsh on it?  While we can hope it inspires somebody to solve the problem, it's a "duh!" idea.  It's a slickly packaged promo for an idea that is inherently obvious to anyone versed in the art (the definition of what is/is not patentable).

A while back, the last time gas prices spiked, a friend of mine lamented "somebody needs to solve our dependance on oil."  This struck me as lazy-wishing.  Instead of whining about it or mastering the craft of making slick videos, why not go to school, and learn how to solve it themselves.


----------



## falcarrion

Janx said:


> I wasn't aware of VoiceOver.  Interesting concept, I imagine.  Without it, the iThings are pretty much useless to blind people (why buy a piece of flat plastic that you can't feel buttons to press to dial).
> 
> Based on the wording in the iSense video, it almost seems as if they were unaware of it as well, based on their premise that blind people were left out on the iThing.
> 
> Sadly, the iSense is just a video, made by some people with the means to make a slick video,  but not the means to make the technology.
> 
> A real iSense screen would likely be built into the product, not a material made of Unobtanium that is laid over the existing screen.
> 
> Additionally, given that neither iPad model has a means of recognizing "what's on top of my screen", this is just imagination-ware.
> 
> Why am I being harsh on it?  While we can hope it inspires somebody to solve the problem, it's a "duh!" idea.  It's a slickly packaged promo for an idea that is inherently obvious to anyone versed in the art (the definition of what is/is not patentable).
> 
> A while back, the last time gas prices spiked, a friend of mine lamented "somebody needs to solve our dependance on oil."  This struck me as lazy-wishing.  Instead of whining about it or mastering the craft of making slick videos, why not go to school, and learn how to solve it themselves.




without Ideas or what you call imagination-ware we wouldn't have cars, computers, or anything at all. You can tell someone about an idea but to present it in slick video you can catch the attenion of the world.


----------



## JoeGKushner

Janx said:


> Furthermore, as with older iPhones, the battery lifespan was about 18 months average.  My 3g was good for the 2.4 years I had it, but I could tell the battery wasn't lasting as long.  I assume the newer models have batteries that live longer, but still, as an embedded component, it's a driver towards replacement.




I'm not trying to sound dense here but I have a G1. the battery went dead. I bought a battery, opened the case and popped it in.

Are you saying that's not possible with an iPhone?


----------



## Fast Learner

JoeGKushner said:


> I'm not trying to sound dense here but I have a G1. the battery went dead. I bought a battery, opened the case and popped it in.
> 
> Are you saying that's not possible with an iPhone?




iPhones have no battery door and so no, the battery isn't officially user-replaceable. They'll do it at an Apple store pretty cheaply, but not as cheaply as doing it yourself. You can do it yourself on the iPhone, it's not hard, but it does require opening the case with a screwdriver, etc.

About 1/3 of Android phones are the same, no battery door, and the percentage seems to be going up. Same deal with them, though: you can do it yourself, it's just not slide-pull-push-slide like a phone with a battery door.


----------



## Janx

Fast Learner said:


> iPhones have no battery door and so no, the battery isn't officially user-replaceable. They'll do it at an Apple store pretty cheaply, but not as cheaply as doing it yourself. You can do it yourself on the iPhone, it's not hard, but it does require opening the case with a screwdriver, etc.
> 
> About 1/3 of Android phones are the same, no battery door, and the percentage seems to be going up. Same deal with them, though: you can do it yourself, it's just not slide-pull-push-slide like a phone with a battery door.




casual researrch I'd done on the 3g indicated Apple would charge about $100.  You could find a company to do it for about $60.

The main reason is that by soldering the battery in, they save space.  How much space?  Probably millimeters.  Some folks used the lack of user-changeable battery as a arguing point against the iThing.  Having worked in the tech hardware industry for years, my perspective was that it was a worthwhile trade-off.

those millimeters are represented by connector contacts (usually springy), plasitic guides to keep the battery inplace and guide it in, plus extra plastic guides for the cover and a release mechanism.  All of that plastic removed meant the phone could be smaller/fit more hardware in.

I recently had a debate with somebody about whether HP's DL360G7 truly had 18 DIMM slots like the spec sheet said it did.  No, way I said.  It's a 1U form-factor box.  The drive bay, CPUs, powersupplies and PCI card tray takes up too much space.  Literally, all the previous models I'd seen only had 4 slots.

So we get one in, and I pop the cover, and sure enough, there are 2 banks of 9 slots, one on the left, one on the right.

This is a machine that has a set height, width, and depth.  And for 10 years, was constrained by the size of those parts I named.  They got the power supplies to be smaller, the drive bay to use small-form factor drives, and PCI-express cards are smaller too.  This opened up space in the chassis for a meaniningful amount of memory slots.

In a small device, millimeters mean a lot.


----------



## Fast Learner

The lack of battery door also means that the whole device becomes more solid, to the point where the iPhone 4 doesn't flex at all. To me, anyway, it makes it feel more... advanced, I guess, more futuristic. And more valuable.

My 3Gs has been in constant daily use for 20 months now and still has a charge that comfortably lasts all day and evening. A few apps -- intensive games, mostly -- can run it down faster than that, but it's almost never an issue. If it keeps up until the new iPhones in (likely) September then the lack of battery user-replaceability won't have affected me at all.

I've been using my iPad 1 continuously for 14 months and it still runs for 8 or 9 straight hours of constant use (and many days of casual use), so it's not an issue there yet, either.

So far I'm quite happy.


----------



## John Crichton

Fast Learner said:


> The lack of battery door also means that the whole device becomes more solid, to the point where the iPhone 4 doesn't flex at all. To me, anyway, it makes it feel more... advanced, I guess, more futuristic. And more valuable.
> 
> My 3Gs has been in constant daily use for 20 months now and still has a charge that comfortably lasts all day and evening. A few apps -- intensive games, mostly -- can run it down faster than that, but it's almost never an issue. If it keeps up until the new iPhones in (likely) September then the lack of battery user-replaceability won't have affected me at all.
> 
> I've been using my iPad 1 continuously for 14 months and it still runs for 8 or 9 straight hours of constant use (and many days of casual use), so it's not an issue there yet, either.
> 
> So far I'm quite happy.



Loving the battery life on the iPad 2 so far.  

Hate that I need to plug it in to the wall to charge it.


----------



## Fast Learner

John Crichton said:


> Loving the battery life on the iPad 2 so far.
> 
> Hate that I need to plug it in to the wall to charge it.




You can plug it into a USB port: even if it's not the high-power USB that will charge the iPad quickly, the lower-power ones work fine, albeit a bit more slowly. The iPad will indicate that it's not charging but if the screen is off it will indeed charge.


----------



## IronWolf

John Crichton said:


> Loving the battery life on the iPad 2 so far.
> 
> Hate that I need to plug it in to the wall to charge it.




I like being able to wall charge mine as an option.  I have the plug on my nightstand, so nice and easy to do before bed and it will be ready in the morning!


----------



## falcarrion

It looks like some interesting stuf is coming out of the Google I/o today.
There will be a new os called ice cream sandwich . It will run on tablets and smart phones. Those attending the I/o each received a samsung limited edition tab 10.1. This is the new sleeker one. They also talked about having a smart house where android tablets or phones can turn on and off lights. Communicate with washing machines... Basically some of your electronics. I have seen this done with the iPad and soon you will be able to use your android as well.


----------



## Fast Learner

Some cool-looking features. I was surprised that the release date was so far in the future, "end of the year." I figured they'd push hard to get it all in place before some of the same features came out from Apple, likely announced in June and released soon thereafter.

Still, good to see them pushing forward in new directions.


----------



## Relique du Madde

Ice Cream Sandwich (3.1) is basically going to push the features that Android promised before being acquired by Google (interconnectability with multiple devices).  The one thing that I'm majorly stoked about is the "Andruino" component.  That is, the Android Arduino microprocessor.  That's going to be HUGE in robotics and diy community.  Not only is it capable building anything you can with an arduino, but giving it the ability to connect it to your android device natively so that you can control or monitor it's status is a plus.

I suspect that the reason why Ice Cream Sandwich is coming out so late is because google wants to force the updates and conversions.  That is, get all the 2.3 updates out, and then to go over every phone and decide which devices are capable of pushing to 3.1 and to lock down all the up coming devices so that we don't have 20 more 2.2 devices.


----------



## John Crichton

I prefer what Google/Android is doing right now with waiting to get it right.  Their reputation with tablets is bad but excellent in other areas so there really should be no massive rush to get another tablet released that is iffy at best.  Put all your resources into a late fall (pre-Holiday) launch and watch the money roll in if they have a competitive product.


----------



## Relique du Madde

You forget, Google/Android only makes the software so it's up to them and their partners to make a good device.  Sadly, if anyone of them fails, the device and platform fails as a whole.

Right now I'm a little cheesed that Xoom WiFi's aren't getting any love with 3.1 ike their version 3g brethren, but I figure it's probably easier to upgrade through a carrier then through the wilds of ad havoc wifi.

However, with the new widget functionality, I can't wait for charactersheet widgets to start appearing. (Damn by liking Mutants and Masterminds... aking a full db to hold all those options is time consuming.)


----------



## falcarrion

Just saw one of the Galaxy tab 10.1 limited edition( the one given away free today) on Ebay it is up to $1,250 with 23 bids.


----------



## John Crichton

Relique du Madde said:


> You forget




I really don't.


----------



## Fast Learner

John Crichton said:


> I prefer what Google/Android is doing right now with waiting to get it right.  Their reputation with tablets is bad but excellent in other areas so there really should be no massive rush to get another tablet released that is iffy at best.  Put all your resources into a late fall (pre-Holiday) launch and watch the money roll in if they have a competitive product.




Dunno, two years in a row of iPad at 75% or so of the tablet market will make it even tougher to overcome going forward. Convincing a lot of people of grab unfinished Android tablets now is likely to drive Android tablet app development and, by default, Google ad impressions, which is the only way Google makes money off of Android.

Worse will be if HP's PalmOS-based tablet is any good this summer: Apple and HP could end up with the bulk of the enterprise market, and once you've got your enterprise devs writing software for one or two platforms, you sure don't want to add a third.


----------



## IronWolf

Fast Learner said:


> Dunno, two years in a row of iPad at 75% or so of the tablet market will make it even tougher to overcome going forward. Convincing a lot of people of grab unfinished Android tablets now is likely to drive Android tablet app development and, by default, Google ad impressions, which is the only way Google makes money off of Android.




Yeah, I can see myself having a harder time switching in the future possibly now that I have grown used to the apps I have on my iPad and in many cases apps I have started to rely on that I have paid for.  It sort of sucks you in unless the Android platform has apps coming out that make me not only want to switch hardware and OS, but apps as well.


----------



## John Crichton

Fast Learner said:


> Dunno, two years in a row of iPad at 75% or so of the tablet market will make it even tougher to overcome going forward.



Name me one tech market in which only the first company to come out with something held that lead when real competition came to the front.  Trust me, there are not nearly enough iPad sold right now to saturate the market.  Tablets are a growing industry and as prices decline more buyers will be stepping up.  And the Android name isn't going anywhere.  Once they release something solid it will sell.



Fast Learner said:


> Convincing a lot of people of grab unfinished Android tablets now is likely to drive Android tablet app development and, by default, Google ad impressions, which is the only way Google makes money off of Android.



There is already development going on right now.  If anyone is counting on these initial returns to predict future sales they really haven't been paying attention to how badly they want in on Apple's portable turf.  There's loads of money to be made there and some growing pains aren't going to stop that.



Fast Learner said:


> Worse will be if HP's PalmOS-based tablet is any good this summer: Apple and HP could end up with the bulk of the enterprise market, and once you've got your enterprise devs writing software for one or two platforms, you sure don't want to add a third.



I'm going to make a wild assumption and say the PalmOS tablet will not be any threat to the market.  



IronWolf said:


> Yeah, I can see myself having a harder time switching in the future possibly now that I have grown used to the apps I have on my iPad and in many cases apps I have started to rely on that I have paid for.  It sort of sucks you in unless the Android platform has apps coming out that make me not only want to switch hardware and OS, but apps as well.



All depends on what the next offerings will be.  Can Apple keep up?  I imagine so but there will be actual competition at some point.


----------



## Janx

Fast Learner said:


> Dunno, two years in a row of iPad at 75% or so of the tablet market will make it even tougher to overcome going forward. Convincing a lot of people of grab unfinished Android tablets now is likely to drive Android tablet app development and, by default, Google ad impressions, which is the only way Google makes money off of Android.
> 
> Worse will be if HP's PalmOS-based tablet is any good this summer: Apple and HP could end up with the bulk of the enterprise market, and once you've got your enterprise devs writing software for one or two platforms, you sure don't want to add a third.




2+ years of iphone dominating the smartphone market didnt prevent android from catching up.

Palm was dying before hp, i doubt hp will reinvigorate it, given their own ipaq diminishment.


----------



## Fast Learner

Janx said:


> 2+ years of iphone dominating the smartphone market didnt prevent android from catching up.




I've gone on before about AT&T carrier-lock-in vs. the open market of tablets, like the open market for mp3 players (aka iPods) before it, so I won't do that again, despite the tremendous difference it makes. Instead I'll address "catching up."

I take it you mean all iPhones sold vs. all Android phones sold. 

Not handheld iOS devices -- iPhones + iPod Touches -- where there are still significantly more than handheld Android devices. This is what matters to families who purchase apps, music, etc. under the same account, and what matters to developers.

Not phones that can run and install the current version of the OS with all its useful features, where 95% of iOS devices are but only 50% of Android devices are, so that nearly all iPhone users have the latest cool stuff (Airplay, etc.) and can run any app in the store, unlike half of Android users. (Google announced yesterday that they're finally going to do something about that at the end of the year or so.)

Not "caught up" in terms of quality apps released, or when they're released if they ever get an Android version at all.

Not "caught up" in the sense of a unified platform that developers can program to, rather than a continually-further-fragmenting bunch of screen sizes and other capabilities, keeping those developers away. (Google announced yesterday that they're finally going to do something about that at the end of the year or so.)

Not "caught up" in terms of financial or business success for the the companies that manufacture and support them, where companies like Motorola and their amazing Droids are in threat of closing their doors due to the small margins and high return rate of Android phones.

And not consumer satisfaction or brand impression, where consumers are significantly happier with their iPhones than those with Android phones.

Just total quantity of pure phone handsets sold, even at a loss and regardless of buyer satisfaction. It's true, in that sense, Android totally caught up. You get 10 (or more) companies manufacturing phones under a single OS brand (regardless of functionality, compatibility, or upgradability), all of whom are risking their futures with the hope of seeing the success Apple has had, add up all of the phones they've sold so far under that brand, and indeed they've sold more of those than iPhones alone.

Glad I'm not one of the companies in the cadre that together have "caught up."


----------



## falcarrion

With all of these companies trying to dethrone Apple. I wonder if Steve has a taster.


----------



## Relique du Madde

Every Apple fan should be thankful that there are so many companies out to dethrone them since it keeps the anti-trust ban hammer away from the iOS.


----------



## John Crichton

Fast Learner said:


> Not phones that can run...
> 
> >>snip<<
> 
> ... cadre that together have "caught up."




The way you spin it would make it sound like Droid isn't in the race at all when that could be no farther from the truth.

You are talking about profit share and it's really no surprise that the company who was first in is leading in that area.  Especially when the Android market is still growing and evolving.  Growing pains I think is the phrase I'm looking for.

And this is especially true in the growing tablet world.  The key word is growing.  There is still plenty of time to get in the game if the product is a quality one.  And as I've said before, there is no war on that front right now.


----------



## Fast Learner

John Crichton said:


> The way you spin it would make it sound like Droid isn't in the race at all when that could be no farther from the truth.




When I referred to Droid I was specifically referring to Motorola's Droid line, not Android in general. Android is most certainly in the race. Motorola and their Droid line, however, is in a lot of trouble. Not as bad as the Xoom line, mind you.


----------



## John Crichton

Fast Learner said:


> When I referred to Droid I was specifically referring to Motorola's Droid line, not Android in general. Android is most certainly in the race. Motorola and their Droid line, however, is in a lot of trouble. Not as bad as the Xoom line, mind you.



Could have fooled me, especially with the cadre bit.


----------



## Fast Learner

John Crichton said:


> Could have fooled me, especially with the cadre bit.




The overall post was about Android. The part where I said "Motorola and their amazing Droids" was about Motorola. Not sure what you're getting at. 

Most of the Android handset makers aren't making much money from them, but Motorola is particularly in trouble. The Xoom is making it even worse for them.


----------



## John Crichton

Fast Learner said:


> The overall post was about Android. The part where I said "Motorola and their amazing Droids" was about Motorola. Not sure what you're getting at.
> 
> Most of the Android handset makers aren't making much money from them, but Motorola is particularly in trouble. The Xoom is making it even worse for them.



Droid/Android = same thing.  Your post painted a very clear picture that no one was making money off the brand, Apple was crushing Android in terms of satisfaction and so on.  When nothing could be further from the truth.  Didn't think me calling your interpretation of where the two are at was that hard to get.

Oh well, my bad.


----------



## Fast Learner

FWIW "Droid" is a trademark of Lucasfilm which has been specifically licensed by Verizon for use with certain Motorola phones. None of the other Android phones are called Droids, nor is the OS. Lucasfilm is very touchy about the term, which is why you don't see other carriers, other manufacturers, or Google using it.


----------



## Fast Learner

John Crichton said:


> Your post painted a very clear picture that no one was making money off the brand, Apple was crushing Android in terms of satisfaction and so on.  When nothing could be further from the truth.




You're welcome to disagree with my opinions, of course, but "nothing could be further from the truth" -- aka I'm lying in the points I made -- is simply, _factually_ wrong. You're welcome to counter with facts, but I'd appreciate you not implying that I'm being untruthful unless you would care to prove it. 

All data is less than 60 days old:

*Market Share*:
Apple Still Trouncing Android shows 37.9 million on iOS vs 23.8 million on Android.

*Operating System*: 
65.9% now running Android 2.2 , released in May 2010: that's up from the 50% in January that I recalled from memory (and is shown on Google's graph), plus 4% running 2.3. 
On iPhones 90-95% now running iOS 4.0, released in June 2010, or later (info from several sources as Apple doesn't provide it).

*Developers Making More Money from iOS*:
Android Provides More Eyeballs to Advertisers, While iPhone Offers Most Revenue to App Creators, Study Finds 
iPhone App User Worth More Than An Android App User

*Profitability*:
In its second quarter, Apple claimed a full half of the operating profits generated by the industry’s eight largest manufacturers.

*Customer Satisfaction*: 
Smartphone Customer Satisfaction 2011


----------



## Relique du Madde

The funny thing about marketshare is that the iOS includes iPods, iPhones, iTV (which is really just itunes made hardware with a hard disk), and iPads. 

They really have to break that statistic into various catagories because that 10 million lead has to be iPods, iPads, and some iTVs.


----------



## catsclaw227

Fast Learner said:


> *Market Share*:
> Apple Still Trouncing Android shows 37.9 million on iOS vs 23.8 million on Android.



I know you are simply copying a link, but "trouncing" is just media hype.

If there are 61.7 million users between iOS and Android, this means that iOS has 61.4% share.  Not exactly a trounce.  Trounce is the number of people using Office vs. other business suites, or the share of Windows computers vs. various Linux OSes.

A 61.4% share is good, even maybe dominant (but RdM has a point above), but saying it trounces Android is just wrong.  If it was 80/20? then yes. but (basically) 60/40, then no.


----------



## Relique du Madde

There's also a note about Android Fragmentation.

Many manufacturers have been holding off on Android 2.3.  The reason may have been because soon after it's launch, Google and Motorola unveiled Honeycomb tablet (Xoom) then blatantly stated:



			
				Mobile Beat  said:
			
		

> Schmidt said that the next version of Android, which will “start with an I [and] be named after a dessert”, will combine the current Gingerbread release for phones (Android version 2.3 and 2.4) with Honeycomb for tablets (version 3.0) into a single OS. That means we shouldn’t expect to see Honeycomb running on phones anytime soon, and that Ice Cream will be the next major Android update for phones.
> source: Android Ice Cream will combine Honeycomb for tablets, Gingerbread for phones | VentureBeat




That was back in February.

I'm pretty certain most phone manufactures took that statement as meaning "Don't build 2.3 phones YET.  Just Upgrade your existing devices to 2.3 since we are still locking down the specs on Ice Cream Sandwich and are not sure what the minimal upgrade specs will be.

Of course the 2.3 adoption rate isn't helped by the fact that custom UIs roms make upgrading difficult and time consuming (well at least for official roms) and every phone manufacturer would rather have you buy a new phone then upgrade your existing one (why Samsung had a class action suit against them), so as a result 2.3 might end up being a "skipped version."


----------



## falcarrion

catsclaw227 said:


> I know you are simply copying a link, but "trouncing" is just media hype.
> 
> If there are 61.7 million users between iOS and Android, this means that iOS has 61.4% share.  Not exactly a trounce.  Trounce is the number of people using Office vs. other business suites, or the share of Windows computers vs. various Linux OSes.
> 
> A 61.4% share is good, even maybe dominant (but RdM has a point above), but saying it trounces Android is just wrong.  If it was 80/20? then yes. but (basically) 60/40, then no.




If you compare each company on a one on one basis Apple is Trouncing.


----------



## Fast Learner

catsclaw227 said:


> I know you are simply copying a link, but "trouncing" is just media hype.




I agree. I contemplated not using the actual titles, probably should have renamed them all. Definitely not trouncing.

I tried to pull iPads out of those numbers (Apple TV is pretty negligible, maybe a million) but man oh man are hard numbers difficult to come by. I intentionally lump iPhone and iPod Touch together, though, since that was my point.


----------



## Fast Learner

Relique du Madde said:


> I'm pretty certain most phone manufactures took that statement as meaning "Don't build 2.3 phones YET.  Just Upgrade your existing devices to 2.3 since we are still locking down the specs on Ice Cream Sandwich and are not sure what the minimal upgrade specs will be.




Agreed, that's why I used 2.2, which was released a month before iOS 4, my comparison point.


----------



## Relique du Madde

falcarrion said:


> If you compare each company on a one on one basis Apple is Trouncing.




Like I said, you have to break it down into various catagories.


iPhone (OS) vs Android Phones  -- Hard to tell
iPods vs hand held Android Media Players -- iPods
iPads vs Android Tablets  -- iPads
Apple eBook Readers vs Android eBook readers * -- Android since iPads are Tablets not "eReaders"
Apple TV vs Google TV + Android running TVs** -- Hard to tell




* Dedicated eReaders.  However, this category is problematic since there really is a format war going on in the eBook category.
**  This really isn't that good of a pairing since Apple TV is a box that runs your itunes while Google TVs can be an actual TV, DVD/Blue Ray players, or "box" that streams media like the Apple TV.  Then there also are the misc. tvs that run Android but are not considered "Google TVs."


----------



## Fast Learner

Android isn't a company, it's a platform. I suspect falcarrion is referring to this:







They're selling more smartphones than any of the companies that sell Android smartphones.


----------



## catsclaw227

Fast Learner said:


> Android isn't a company, it's a platform. I suspect falcarrion is referring to this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They're selling more smartphones than any of the companies that sell Android smartphones.




Exactly.  I was referring to the comparison between iOS with Android OS.  Software, not hardware.


----------



## Relique du Madde

Here is a random find (Dated March 18, 2011): 






This table is based on a sampling of all ad impressions from one advertising firm (from Feb 2011), so I warn you to take it with a grain of salt.


----------



## John Crichton

Fast Learner said:


> You're welcome to disagree with my opinions, of course, but "nothing could be further from the truth" -- aka I'm lying in the points I made -- is simply, _factually_ wrong. You're welcome to counter with facts, but I'd appreciate you not implying that I'm being untruthful unless you would care to prove it.
> 
> All data is less than 60 days old:
> 
> *Market Share*:
> Apple Still Trouncing Android shows 37.9 million on iOS vs 23.8 million on Android.
> 
> *Operating System*:
> 65.9% now running Android 2.2 , released in May 2010: that's up from the 50% in January that I recalled from memory (and is shown on Google's graph), plus 4% running 2.3.
> On iPhones 90-95% now running iOS 4.0, released in June 2010, or later (info from several sources as Apple doesn't provide it).
> 
> *Developers Making More Money from iOS*:
> Android Provides More Eyeballs to Advertisers, While iPhone Offers Most Revenue to App Creators, Study Finds
> iPhone App User Worth More Than An Android App User
> 
> *Profitability*:
> In its second quarter, Apple claimed a full half of the operating profits generated by the industry’s eight largest manufacturers.
> 
> *Customer Satisfaction*:
> Smartphone Customer Satisfaction 2011



It's interesting that believe those sources make your point for you.  The 2 OSs are much closer than your "catching up" rant indicates.  Especially when considering that the new guy has closed the gap so quickly.  I'd certainly expect the product that's had more time to get polished to get better results.  However, those results aren't that stark.

Check your own links if you don't believe me.


----------



## falcarrion

You have to consider the software and the hardware togather. You don't sell an Android device without the software on it or a iOS device without the software. The iOS numbers is just one Company that is being compared to Andriod which is a total of muliple companies. If only one company was selling Android and you compared them against Apple. The difference would be even larger.  As for these reports you need to take in account of when they where written and how old the data is.  Some of these don't include the Xoom sales or the Ipad2 sales. And that will change the numbers more than you think.


----------



## Fast Learner

John Crichton said:


> It's interesting that believe those sources make your point for you.




I certainly found it interesting, hence my posting them.


----------



## Relique du Madde

It looks like Samsung just dropped a major bomb on the tablet world.

Earlier this day they demoed an unidentified 10.1 inch SAMSUNG Tablet featuring a 2560x1600 300dpi screen.


----------



## Fast Learner

Relique du Madde said:


> It looks like Samsung just dropped a major bomb on the tablet world.
> 
> Earlier this day they demoed an unidentified 10.1 inch SAMSUNG Tablet featuring a 2560x1600 300dpi screen.




They're just demoing a tablet-sized *screen*, no announcement of a tablet. 

The screen, however, is very exciting; odds are Samsung will supply a screen of similar density for the iPad 3, and likely its own Galaxy tablets down the line. If you've experienced the similarly-dense "Retina Display" on the iPhone 4, you know what an amazing difference it can make.


----------



## JoeGKushner

Fast Learner said:


> They're just demoing a tablet-sized *screen*, no announcement of a tablet.
> 
> The screen, however, is very exciting; odds are Samsung will supply a screen of similar density for the iPad 3, and likely its own Galaxy tablets down the line. If you've experienced the similarly-dense "Retina Display" on the iPhone 4, you know what an amazing difference it can make.





The interesting thing here, is WILL Samsung be supplying that screen to Aplle, especially now that they're all in court?

I think that is the real area that Apple needs to tread with some care. Having the iPad does give them a lot of 'leg' on the competition, but their sources, like Best Buy and others, can push devices if Apple comes off against them.

In addition, with some of the supply side issues, Apple may be its own worst enemy in that manner as well.


----------



## falcarrion

JoeGKushner said:


> The interesting thing here, is WILL Samsung be supplying that screen to Aplle, especially now that they're all in court?
> 
> I think that is the real area that Apple needs to tread with some care. Having the iPad does give them a lot of 'leg' on the competition, but their sources, like Best Buy and others, can push devices if Apple comes off against them.
> 
> In addition, with some of the supply side issues, Apple may be its own worst enemy in that manner as well.




Apple bought 5.7 billion worth of product from Samsung in 2010. I doubt that Samsung will stop selling to apple. It also depends on how long the contracts are for. Every time you turn around these companies sue each other.


----------



## Fast Learner

falcarrion said:


> Apple bought 5.7 billion worth of product from Samsung in 2010. I doubt that Samsung will stop selling to apple. It also depends on how long the contracts are for. Every time you turn around these companies sue each other.




Exactly. It would hurt Samsung far too much. IP lawsuits happen between cooperating companies all the time; they rarely let them affect their bottom lines.


----------



## Relique du Madde

> *RIM issues recall on nearly 1,000 faulty BlackBerry PlayBooks*
> By: Adam Rosenberg
> May 15, 2011
> 
> Research In Motion issues a recall order on a Staples stock of 935 BlackBerry PlayBook serial numbers due to unspecified faulty hardware concerns.
> 
> Here’s a public service announcement for owners of a recently purchased BlackBerry PlayBook. If your new toy came from Staples, you’re going to want to follow this link to a list of serial numbers compiled by Engadget. Why? It seems that a faulty batch of those lovely PlayBooks escaped into the wild and landed at the office supply chain.
> 
> The news comes from an internal Staples document stating that “approximately 900 units of the BlackBerry PlayBook have been determined to be faulty. The vendor has provided the serial numbers so that we can pull these off the floor and return immediately.” The sheet also says that leaving these items on store shelves “may result in a customer purchasing a unit that will not operate.” No further information is provided, though since some of these models have presumably been purchased — the PlayBook launched in April and has been doing quite well so far — it’s something we can expect to see Research In Motion comment publicly on soon.
> 
> Engadget’s list contains 935 serial numbers alleged to be affected by whatever the hardware fault is. Though if you bought yours at Staples and it doesn’t work, or suddenly stopped working, or became self-aware and tried to kill you, it’s probably a safe bet to just bring it back to the store and ask for a replacement. Unless it is currently in the process of trying to kill you, in which case you’ve likely got a whole other set of problems to worry about right now.
> 
> Kidding aside: Staples shoppers who bought a PlayBook recently, go and check that list out, whether or not your tablet is actually working.




RIM is recalling 1000 of their BlackBerry Playbooks... Definitely not good news.


On a side note, I received my Xoom's 3.1 Update on Friday.  It seems faster (especially transitions), the browser's quick interface is better, and I also like the re-sizable widgets (thought I wish more of the widgets could be re-sized, like the clock, but oh well).  Sadly, there still is no official SD card support and since I own a wifi-only device, I get no movie rental love.

Interestingly enough, I read some speculation that Samsung will announce that the Galaxy Tab 10.1 *WILL* receive the 2560x1600 display at the SID Display Week 2011 conference.


EDIT:  I just noticed that the Encryption Bug that caused the time to reset on powerup was fixed with the update!


----------



## falcarrion

Relique du Madde said:


> RIM is recalling 1000 of their BlackBerry Playbooks... Definitely not good news.
> 
> 
> On a side note, I received my Xoom's 3.1 Update on Friday.  It seems faster (especially transitions), the browser's quick interface is better, and I also like the re-sizable widgets (thought I wish more of the widgets could be re-sized, like the clock, but oh well).  Sadly, there still is no official SD card support and since I own a wifi-only device, I get no movie rental love.
> 
> Interestingly enough, I read some speculation that Samsung will announce that the Galaxy Tab 10.1 *WILL* receive the 2560x1600 display at the SID Display Week 2011 conference.




good to know. thanks for sharing.


----------



## Banshee16

Relique du Madde said:


> RIM is recalling 1000 of their BlackBerry Playbooks... Definitely not good news.
> 
> 
> On a side note, I received my Xoom's 3.1 Update on Friday.  It seems faster (especially transitions), the browser's quick interface is better, and I also like the re-sizable widgets (thought I wish more of the widgets could be re-sized, like the clock, but oh well).  Sadly, there still is no official SD card support and since I own a wifi-only device, I get no movie rental love.
> 
> Interestingly enough, I read some speculation that Samsung will announce that the Galaxy Tab 10.1 *WILL* receive the 2560x1600 display at the SID Display Week 2011 conference.
> 
> 
> EDIT:  I just noticed that the Encryption Bug that caused the time to reset on powerup was fixed with the update!




I read an article explaining that the Playbooks that were recalled were due to a bad batch of units that had an issue with software.  They were only ones sent to Staples in Canada, from what I understand....and, in particular, none of them actually  made it into the hands of customers.

So, the situation could have been worse.  A batch going to one chain of stores, and the problem discovered before they were sold to customers is better than the alternative.

I've been reading that the sales of the Playbook have significantly beyond the sales numbers for Android Honeycomb devices.

I've still been considering the Xoom.  But I was also taking a look at the Acer Iconia A500.  I've heard negative things about the Acer brand quality, so I'm not sure what to think.  But the device that I looked at in the store seemed pretty polished.

Honestly, considering how much hatred and ridicule Android devices (particularly the Xoom) seem to get online from people supporting the iPad, the Iconia seemed pretty nice to me.  Clean, played video well, snappy, a more powerful and more desktop like interface/UI than the iPad, and all those ports....HDMI, USB mini, USB, a working SD card slot....

Why does the Xoom's SD card slot not work, anyways?  It can't be because of Honeycomb, because, as with the Iconia, there are other Honeycomb devices in which the SD card slot is actually working.

That's one of the things holding me back....that, and wondering about the screen......when I look in the store, it seems fairly dark.  I don't know if that's a characteristic of the Xoom screen, or if it's because the iPad is artifiicially set to super bright levels.

Speaking as someone who has the Xoom, does it generally seem stable?  I read online from people trashing it, saying it crashes all the time when they "see their friends using it"...but then people who have it say their devices rarely crash, and, worst case scenario, they might have to power off an app.

How long does your battery last?  I would *think* that the WiFi version should last longer in browsing than the 3G one...I know my iPhone battery lasts much longer if I browse the internet using WiFi instead of 3G.

And what about playing videos?  I understand it can play 720p video?  Do you have to do any special formatting?  I've heard mixed reviews there.....some people saying they have problems with video, and then others saying they're only have problems, because they're trying to use videos downloaded from Torrents in particular formats incompatible with the device.

The vitriol spewed in the community over these devices makes it really difficult to make an informed decision.

I've thought of waiting for the Samsung 10.1...particularly if it has this new, better screen.....but I've heard it'll be constructed of plastic.....and I've had issues with Samsung in the past.  I went through 4 of their monitors to get one that actually works well, and I find their screens have a significant red cast that throws the image off......and on my current Samsung monitor, I've had it for a year and a half, and they still haven't updated the darn firmware to fix known issues with text fonts being fuzzy, and with the monitor not turning back on when a computer comes out of sleep mode.  On top of that, their SmartTouch software still doesn't support any of the mainstream nVidia and ATI video cards I have on *any* of my 4 PCs.  Given the lack of desire or capability to provide simple software updates, I'm a little hesitant to go with their tablet.....particularly since it'll have the Touch Wiz Samsung interface added to Honeycomb.....so, post-release of new Honeycomb versions, there'll be a delay until Samsung makes adjustments for their own device.

Banshee


----------



## Fast Learner

Banshee16 said:


> I read an article explaining that the Playbooks that were recalled were due to a bad batch of units that had an issue with software.  They were only ones sent to Staples in Canada, from what I understand....and, in particular, none of them actually  made it into the hands of customers.




According to RIM, some did make it into customer hands, but not many, and all-in-all it was no big deal. 

_RIM determined that approximately one thousand BlackBerry PlayBook tablets (16 GB) were shipped with an OS build that may result in the devices being unable to properly load software upon initial set-up._

_The majority of the affected devices are still in the distribution channel and haven't reached customers. RIM is working to replace the affected devices._

_In the small number of cases where a customer received a PlayBook that is unable to properly load software upon initial set-up, they can contact RIM for assistance._

Because the market is so hot such a tiny problem gets a lot of press. A shame, really.


----------



## Relique du Madde

Banshee16 said:


> Why does the Xoom's SD card slot not work, anyways?  It can't be because of Honeycomb, because, as with the Iconia, there are other Honeycomb devices in which the SD card slot is actually working.
> [/sblock]
> Because unlike everyone else Motorola seems to be waiting for Google to release the official Honeycomb SD card code instead of doing what many of the others honeycomb tablet manufacturers did which was make their own.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's one of the things holding me back....that, and wondering about the screen......when I look in the store, it seems fairly dark.  I don't know if that's a characteristic of the Xoom screen, or if it's because the iPad is artifiicially set to super bright levels.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's the Xoom's screen (doesn't help that Motorola has a tendency to pick cheap screens on most products).   When you turn the brightness up things gets really faded.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking as someone who has the Xoom, does it generally seem stable?  I read online from people trashing it, saying it crashes all the time when they "see their friends using it"...but then people who have it say their devices rarely crash, and, worst case scenario, they might have to power off an app.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> For the most part it seems to depend on an app.. which is often the case with android.
> 
> Only like once or twice did I have it crash while using the browser (flash was playing on the site).  Though every so often it would lag (maybe a site's javascript is at play... but not sure).
> 
> The only other times it "crashes" or has strange bugs or lags usually was when I'm logging on or awaking from the xoom sleeping.  The error is a result of the device being encrypted and it hick-upping after I typed in my password.  It's a minor annoyance since once you close the error  message it allows me to reboot.
> 
> I've yet to have my Xoom lock up to the point of having to turn the power off and restart (which occasionally happens on my droid 2).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How long does your battery last?  I would *think* that the WiFi version should last longer in browsing than the 3G one...I know my iPhone battery lasts much longer if I browse the internet using WiFi instead of 3G.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I've been seeing between 8 - 12 hours average with moderate to heavy use with the wifi turned on all the time.  I've heard running movies sucks the life out of the batteries.  HOWEVER it should be noted that the Xoom recharged very fast.  Only problem is that it doesn't power by usb...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And what about playing videos?  I understand it can play 720p video?  Do you have to do any special formatting?  I've heard mixed reviews there.....some people saying they have problems with video, and then others saying they're only have problems, because they're trying to use videos downloaded from Torrents in particular formats incompatible with the device.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The problem with formats is that you have to have the proper codexs installed or supported on the device to view them.   I'm not certain which ones are supported beyond:  MPEG4, H.263, H.264.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Given the lack of desire or capability to provide simple software updates, I'm a little hesitant to go with their tablet.....particularly since it'll have the Touch Wiz Samsung interface added to Honeycomb.....so, post-release of new Honeycomb versions, there'll be a delay until Samsung makes adjustments for their own device.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Right now it's hard to tell how the Galaxy 10.1 will be handled update wise.  Ever since they received the class action lawsuit, Samsung has done their damnedest to turn around the negative image they received for not updating androids to the point where alot of their phones and the Galexy Tab 1 will run 2.3 in a few weeks.  Unfortunately, who knows how long this change will last beyond the mandatory 18 months per product if upgradable  benchmark.
Click to expand...


----------



## John Crichton

I've determined that since I use my iPad so much that I owe it to myself to buy the first really good Andriod offering.  I adore the OS and would love Flash support and other feature people have been clamoring for. 

That hopefully means another purchase during the holiday season.  I may even consider a 3G version if my usage stays at this level!


----------



## falcarrion

There are some intresting stuff going on this week.

First we have the rumor of the Amazon tablets with code names "coyote" and "hollywood".

Second we have the Seagate Goflex Satellite . A wifi external hard drive , 500gb. It will work on the Ipad.

Third is what is going on at the apple stores this weekend.  
Apple retail stores will be shrouded in black during the overnight hours from Saturday May 21st into early Sunday May 22nd. Why? 
Could it be the new ipod nano with a camera?
Could it be the anouncment of there Icloud service?
Could it be a new size tablet?
With it being there 10th retail Anniversary who knows?


----------



## falcarrion

I just read Barns and Noble has big anouncment on the 24. could they be coming out with a new nook tablet?
Wouldn't be intresting if apples event and Barns and Noble where related?


----------



## Relique du Madde

falcarrion said:


> Third is what is going on at the apple stores this weekend.
> Apple retail stores will be shrouded in black during the overnight hours from Saturday May 21st into early Sunday May 22nd.




That sounds more like some product is going to die then be announced. Ironically the crazies believe the rapture is happening on the 21st.


----------



## Banshee16

Relique du Madde said:


> Banshee16 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why does the Xoom's SD card slot not work, anyways?  It can't be because of Honeycomb, because, as with the Iconia, there are other Honeycomb devices in which the SD card slot is actually working.
> [/sblock]
> Because unlike everyone else Motorola seems to be waiting for Google to release the official Honeycomb SD card code instead of doing what many of the others honeycomb tablet manufacturers did which was make their own.
> 
> 
> It's the Xoom's screen (doesn't help that Motorola has a tendency to pick cheap screens on most products).   When you turn the brightness up things gets really faded.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, would you consider it a poor screen then?  The resolution is supposedly quite good, even better than the iPad's.
> 
> I do know that when I've looked at samples in the store, I've been fairly impressed with the image quality.....but just noted the overall darkness of the image.  But given the OS' desktop background is dark, compared to the default bright background on iPad 2's, it's hard to compare them.
> 
> I've read there are issues with images in the image gallery app appearing washed out, but that this is a Honeycomb issue, and that downloading 3rd party gallery apps (like Quickpics) works much better...or was that fixed with this update to Honeycomb?
> 
> I've never owned an Android device before......I'm looking at it instead of the iPad 2, as I have my iPhone, am not entirely happy with it, and everything I've seen of my business partners' iPad2's is that they're basically like giant iPhones.  Given that I'm in web development, Flash support is a must.  From what I can see, by testing the devices in stores, there are many sites that work perfectly on the Xoom and Iconia A500, via Flash support, when I'd need to download an app (taking up HD space) on the iPad 2 to deliver the same functionality.
> 
> I also like that Android is seemingly more customizable.  On my iPhone, I've downloaded a Mercury and Atomic browsers, as Safari is too limited...but there doesn't seem to be a way to make them my default browsers, so, if I click a link in an e-mail, it opens Safari...I then have to copy the link, close Safari, open Mercury, and paste the URL.  My understanding is that Android gives more control to configure things as I'd like them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Relique du Madde said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Banshee16 said:
> 
> 
> 
> For the most part it seems to depend on an app.. which is often the case with android.
> 
> Only like once or twice did I have it crash while using the browser (flash was playing on the site).  Though every so often it would lag (maybe a site's javascript is at play... but not sure).
> 
> The only other times it "crashes" or has strange bugs or lags usually was when I'm logging on or awaking from the xoom sleeping.  The error is a result of the device being encrypted and it hick-upping after I typed in my password.  It's a minor annoyance since once you close the error  message it allows me to reboot.
> 
> I've yet to have my Xoom lock up to the point of having to turn the power off and restart (which occasionally happens on my droid 2).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> That's good to know.  I don't expect any devices' apps to work perfectly.  My iPhone has frozen (not as often as my Blackberry did), and I've had many apps crash.  Big deal...you launch them again.
> 
> On the topic of using Flash....has Flash seemed at all laggy to you?  I've seen it play on the Blackberry Playbook, and in many cases, it appears flawless...pretty much as good as it does on my PC.  But many of the Xooms I've looked at were not configured....the store staff never bothered to install Flash.  So I don't know how well it works on the device.
> 
> Have you tried Google Talk?  Did that work well?
> 
> All the reviews I've read commented that there were only 50 Honeycomb apps.....but those reviews were being written in February/March.  Upon review a few days ago, I think I counted about 500 apps......so that's like a 900% increase in 2 months.  I figure even more will arrive.
> 
> 
> 
> Relique du Madde said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Banshee16 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've been seeing between 8 - 12 hours average with moderate to heavy use with the wifi turned on all the time.  I've heard running movies sucks the life out of the batteries.  HOWEVER it should be noted that the Xoom recharged very fast.  Only problem is that it doesn't power by usb...
> 
> 
> The problem with formats is that you have to have the proper codexs installed or supported on the device to view them.   I'm not certain which ones are supported beyond:  MPEG4, H.263, H.264.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Pardon my ignorance, as converting videos isn't something I've done much of.  So I don't know a lot about it.....aside from the fact that my Windows 7 machine had problems with videos and music at first, until I had to download a  Windows 7 codec pack from MajorGeeks.com - Download Freeware and Shareware Computer Utilities., which made the problems go away.
> 
> So, are you saying the Xoom only supports particular video codecs, and they *don't* come installed on the device?
> 
> I have a lot of Blu-Rays with the "digital copy" discs.  Traditionally, I've been getting a bunch of them into iTunes, but I've got several discs which still have to have the digital copies burned to the hard drive, and I've been holding off, wanting to find out what format I'd have to have them in, to play on a tablet.  Or is that not possible?
> 
> I read from a guy online who said he just put the digital copy disc in his DVD-ROM, grabbed the video file, and moved it over to the video folder on his Xoom and it played.  Have you tried watching those videos at all?
> 
> 8-12 hours of battery life doesn't sound bad.  I'm assuming if I turned WiFi off (like if I was using it as an e-reader at the cottage, where there is no Internet access) that it would last even longer.
> 
> 
> 
> Relique du Madde said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Banshee16 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Right now it's hard to tell how the Galaxy 10.1 will be handled update wise.  Ever since they received the class action lawsuit, Samsung has done their damnedest to turn around the negative image they received for not updating androids to the point where alot of their phones and the Galexy Tab 1 will run 2.3 in a few weeks.  Unfortunately, who knows how long this change will last beyond the mandatory 18 months per product if upgradable  benchmark.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm...hopefully they wouldn't need to be sued.  I get really annoyed at unsupported products.  The issues I've had with my Samsung monitor haven't exactly got me to stage a love-in for the company.  Given their reputation for screens, I'm disappointed that, with my dual monitors, I have to keep bringing my documents over to my second, older monitor, for them to appear, you know....not fuzzy.  Given the monitor came out in December 2009, you'd think they'd have a driver to fix the problem, but when you read online, it's just person after person posting about the same problem.
> 
> I appreciate your taking the time to answer my questions.
> 
> Overall, if you had to make the decision again, would you buy a Xoom or other Honeycomb device again, or recommend it?
> 
> Banshee
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Relique du Madde

Banshee16 said:


> Relique du Madde said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, would you consider it a poor screen then?  The resolution is supposedly quite good, even better than the iPad's.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Resolution is better (160 dip), however, I did notice that the colors seem faded when comparing the same app on various tablets and phones with similar settings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've read there are issues with images in the image gallery app appearing washed out, but that this is a Honeycomb issue, and that downloading 3rd party gallery apps (like Quickpics) works much better...or was that fixed with this update to Honeycomb?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I actually just downloaded QuickPics to check.  There's a slight difference in coloration between the standard app and Quickpics.  The images in Quickpics look slightly more saturated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On the topic of using Flash....has Flash seemed at all laggy to you?  I've seen it play on the Blackberry Playbook, and in many cases, it appears flawless...pretty much as good as it does on my PC.  But many of the Xooms I've looked at were not configured....the store staff never bothered to install Flash.  So I don't know how well it works on the device.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes and no.  I've played some flash games and flash movies that were not laggy what so ever as well as others which were so laggy that they crashed the browser.
> 
> Unfortunately, what makes it difficult to evaluate between a pc/laptop the xoom and a phone of course is the device's RAM size.  For instance one AIR game I made was unplayable on my Droid2 (too laggy), but played perfectly on my Xoom.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have you tried Google Talk?  Did that work well?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I haven't yet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, are you saying the Xoom only supports particular video codecs, and they *don't* come installed on the device?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They are installed on the device, I just don't know whats on the full list of viewable codecs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have a lot of Blu-Rays with the "digital copy" discs.  Traditionally, I've been getting a bunch of them into iTunes, but I've got several discs which still have to have the digital copies burned to the hard drive, and I've been holding off, wanting to find out what format I'd have to have them in, to play on a tablet.  Or is that not possible?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Let me grab a digital copy of a dvd and test it out, but it should be possible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have you tried watching those videos at all?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I haven't (I tend to use the Xoom for writing and for PDFs).
> 
> 8-12 hours of battery life doesn't sound bad.  I'm assuming if I turned WiFi off (like if I was using it as an e-reader at the cottage, where there is no Internet access) that it would last even longer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Overall, if you had to make the decision again, would you buy a Xoom or other Honeycomb device again, or recommend it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Tough question.
> 
> From what I seen/read, I would have gotten either a Xoom or a Galaxy 10.1; however, the fact that the Xoom is a Vanilla Android and doesn't require a special usb adapter is what would have caused me to pick that device over the Galexy 10.1.
Click to expand...


----------



## Relique du Madde

falcarrion said:


> Third is what is going on at the apple stores this weekend.
> Apple retail stores will be shrouded in black during the overnight hours from Saturday May 21st into early Sunday May 22nd. Why?
> With it being there 10th retail Anniversary who knows?




From what I read they a "relaunching" the Apple Store.    So yes, Apple Store 1.x is dead.

The reports/rumors I read (via gawker) states that they are adding in new "bars" and replacing all the product signage with iPad displays that contain all the product information... you know so they can get you to experience an ipad and buy one along with whatever device you will get.  If that rumor is true, just imaging the Divide By Zero you will get when you see a iPad display with an iPad next to it that talks about it's features.  Though technically, I don't even think they will need an iPad display... just a button on the Apple Store App that saids "read about the iPad."


----------



## falcarrion

Relique du Madde said:


> From what I read they a "relaunching" the Apple Store.    So yes, Apple Store 1.x is dead.
> 
> The reports/rumors I read (via gawker) states that they are adding in new "bars" and replacing all the product signage with iPad displays that contain all the product information... you know so they can get you to experience an ipad and buy one along with whatever device you will get.  If that rumor is true, just imaging the Divide By Zero you will get when you see a iPad display with an iPad next to it that talks about it's features.  Though technically, I don't even think they will need an iPad display... just a button on the Apple Store App that saids "read about the iPad."




I read today they are refering it as Apple Store 2.0
I also heard the employees will be using ipads to complete your purchases.
With all these Ipads it makes me wonder if this will increase the snatch and grab robberies they have been having.


----------



## Janx

falcarrion said:


> I read today they are refering it as Apple Store 2.0
> I also heard the employees will be using ipads to complete your purchases.
> With all these Ipads it makes me wonder if this will increase the snatch and grab robberies they have been having.




they already use ipod touches with a wierd addon pack that might be a credit card reader.

switching to iPads would just be bulkier and costly.  But that's Apple's call


----------



## Banshee16

Relique du Madde said:


> Banshee16 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Resolution is better (160 dip), however, I did notice that the colors seem faded when comparing the same app on various tablets and phones with similar settings..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's interesting.  I'd likely have to test by taking some photos where I could be assured of colour correctness, and load them onto a few devices, and see which look best.
> 
> At least in the TV world, particularly with LCD TV's, I find that default settings often seem over saturated and over bright, because that attracts the eye, which helps sell TV's....even if it's not true to life.  I wonder whether the same thing happens with tablets?  I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle.
> 
> Out of the tablets I've looked at recently, the ones that seemed the most vibrant were the Playbook, then the iPad 2, then the Iconia, then the Xoom....but the Xoom's resolution is a lot higher than the overall vividness of the colours.
> 
> I've read in reviews that there's a visible grid on the screen of the Iconia, but I don't see it....I don't think....I *did* see, very faintly a tiny grid of cells, but we're talking millimeters here....Unless you really look hard, it's not really noticeable.
> 
> 
> 
> Relique du Madde said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> I actually just downloaded QuickPics to check.  There's a slight difference in coloration between the standard app and Quickpics.  The images in Quickpics look slightly more saturated.
> 
> 
> Yes and no.  I've played some flash games and flash movies that were not laggy what so ever as well as others which were so laggy that they crashed the browser.
> 
> Unfortunately, what makes it difficult to evaluate between a pc/laptop the xoom and a phone of course is the device's RAM size.  For instance one AIR game I made was unplayable on my Droid2 (too laggy), but played perfectly on my Xoom.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Most of the Xooms I've looked at in the stores don't even have Flash configured.  So it's been hard to really see it.  I found one that had Flash, and I played a video about that NHL player who died last week, and it seemed kind of choppy....but then I went and viewed Flash videos on other sites, and they worked fine....so was it the Flash on the Xoom, that individual unit, or something with the video coming off that site?  I wonder.
> 
> Things were pretty seamless on the Iconia I looked at....but that was at Staples, and they don't carry iPads, so they seem to take proper configuration of all their other tablets more seriously than Best Buy/Future Shop, so it could have been as simple as that.  As I understand it, both have the exact same OS, the same processor even....so the performance should be pretty much the same.
> 
> 
> I haven't yet.
> 
> 
> 
> Relique du Madde said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> They are installed on the device, I just don't know whats on the full list of viewable codecs.
> 
> 
> Let me grab a digital copy of a dvd and test it out, but it should be possible.
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I'd be very interested in hearing what you found out.  I've been waiting to download a bunch more off my disks, if that would prevent me from using them on a tablet (ie. if I brought them into itunes).  I'd much rather have them on something like a tablet than on my iPhone.  That's nothing against the iPhone....it's just if I had a choice between watching a movie on a 3" screen and a 10" screen, I'd take the 10" screen.
> 
> I've tried them on my laptop, but it becomes a chug fest, an I don't have enough battery life to get through a movie anyways.
> 
> 
> 
> Relique du Madde said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> From what I seen/read, I would have gotten either a Xoom or a Galaxy 10.1; however, the fact that the Xoom is a Vanilla Android and doesn't require a special usb adapter is what would have caused me to pick that device over the Galexy 10.1.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, connections are important to me as well.  Apple's proprietary connections are one of the things that turned me off there.....and the initial reviews of the limited edition Galaxy 10.1 seem to indicate it doesn't have the  plethora of connections that the Xoom and Iconia have.  I having to buy a bunch of proprietary cables just to use a device.  I've got more USB, micro USB etc. cables than I can shake a stick at, so I'd rather stick with them.  Even HDMI cables.  A good one is what...$10?
> 
> I haven't heard a final answer regarding the Galaxy 10.1 though....I'm not sure whether reviewers looking at the limited edition one just haven't found those outputs because they're simply well hidden, or if they're just not there.  And if they're not there, is that because these are limited edition units?  Or will they also not be there on the consumer Galaxy 10.1?
> 
> I'm all in favour of light......but I lugged a 17" desktop replacement laptop that probabl weighs 5 lbs around Paris and Rome for hours on end in the fall....I'm really not scared of a 1.5 lb tablet.
> 
> Banshee
Click to expand...


----------



## Banshee16

Janx said:


> they already use ipod touches with a wierd addon pack that might be a credit card reader.
> 
> switching to iPads would just be bulkier and costly.  But that's Apple's call




I wonder if they're using the Square Up app?  Seems like such a useful service, and it's not available in Canada (of course) 

Banshee


----------



## Fast Learner

Banshee16 said:


> I wonder if they're using the Square Up app?




I think it's likely they'd use a proprietary app so that they have complete control over security, but it's possible they'd use an existing app as a convincing demonstration of what other businesses could do.


----------



## falcarrion

Fast Learner said:


> I think it's likely they'd use a proprietary app so that they have complete control over security, but it's possible they'd use an existing app as a convincing demonstration of what other businesses could do.




Here is what AppleInsider is saying:
AppleInsider | Apple to overhaul retail operations with iPads running new RetailMe software


----------



## Banshee16

Fast Learner said:


> I think it's likely they'd use a proprietary app so that they have complete control over security, but it's possible they'd use an existing app as a convincing demonstration of what other businesses could do.




Heh....no demonstration needed here.  Just need the rules to change so it could be used in my country.  I've got a small company, and something like Square Up would be so  helpful.  Instead, we're forced to apply for Merchant ID's and such, which often aren't given to small companies....failing that, it's chasing clients for cheques, asking why their payment is 60 days past due, trying to figure out how to pay the mortgage when your clients haven't paid you yet...

Some things about bootstrapping just suck.

Seems like a fantastic app for a small company.

Banshee


----------



## IronWolf

Banshee16 said:


> Yes, connections are important to me as well.  Apple's proprietary connections are one of the things that turned me off there.....and the initial reviews of the limited edition Galaxy 10.1 seem to indicate it doesn't have the  plethora of connections that the Xoom and Iconia have.  I having to buy a bunch of proprietary cables just to use a device.  I've got more USB, micro USB etc. cables than I can shake a stick at, so I'd rather stick with them.  Even HDMI cables.  A good one is what...$10?




I used to complain about this proprietary connection as I bought Apple devices (iPods, iPod Touch, iPad, Iphone) and suddenly have nearly as many of these Apple connectors as I do anything else.  

I think it is this way with a lot of Apple stuff.  If you commit to them their interoperability between Apple devices is great.  Trying to mix them is where the frustrations mount - which I am sure exactly what they want...  ::shrug::


----------



## Fast Learner

There are some reasonably valid reasons for the 30-pin proprietary connectors, though I'm sure there are solutions that involve multiple connectors or other setups that would work. 

The 30-pin connector does all of these things simultaneously:

- Transfers power

- Transfers audio and video

- Transfers other digital data like GPS signals and track info, simultaneously sending and receiving

- Sends information about the accessory's capabilities

- Supports the device 

The real trick today, though, is maintaining compatibility with all those speaker systems and alarm clocks and automobiles and such. Hotel rooms all over the world have sound systems with iPod/iPhone dock connectors because iPods became so ubiquitous.

I suspect Apple will only switch away when they move to being fully wireless, though the EU requirement for mini-USB charging may have an effect as well.


----------



## Banshee16

IronWolf said:


> I used to complain about this proprietary connection as I bought Apple devices (iPods, iPod Touch, iPad, Iphone) and suddenly have nearly as many of these Apple connectors as I do anything else.
> 
> I think it is this way with a lot of Apple stuff.  If you commit to them their interoperability between Apple devices is great.  Trying to mix them is where the frustrations mount - which I am sure exactly what they want...  ::shrug::




Yeah, that's what I've been observing.  It's been a *long* time since I've been an active Mac user.  November to today is the first time I've actively used an Apple product in a long time....I'm talking about like 1988.  

My business partner is a huge Apple fan, and keeps commenting about getting me off PC onto Apple, but I don't think it'll happen.  I enjoy tinkering too much....even when I tinker and break something, I get a kick out of then learning how to fix it.  With him, he seems to appreciate that he just gets everything Apple, they work together, he uses them, and that's it.  However...if something goes wrong, he doesn't know how to fix it.

Different mentality, I guess.  Not right or wrong, just different.

My wife already complains about cables, and they're one expense I wince at every time it comes up.

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16

Fast Learner said:


> There are some reasonably valid reasons for the 30-pin proprietary connectors, though I'm sure there are solutions that involve multiple connectors or other setups that would work.
> 
> The 30-pin connector does all of these things simultaneously:
> 
> - Transfers power
> 
> - Transfers audio and video
> 
> - Transfers other digital data like GPS signals and track info, simultaneously sending and receiving
> 
> - Sends information about the accessory's capabilities
> 
> - Supports the device
> 
> The real trick today, though, is maintaining compatibility with all those speaker systems and alarm clocks and automobiles and such. Hotel rooms all over the world have sound systems with iPod/iPhone dock connectors because iPods became so ubiquitous.
> 
> I suspect Apple will only switch away when they move to being fully wireless, though the EU requirement for mini-USB charging may have an effect as well.




I don't know if you need a 30 pin connector for that though.  I could be wrong (I'm sure someone will point it out), but when I was using Blackberry, that one micro USB cable powered the device, transferred files, including audio/video...

I'm *assuming* it transferred GPS data, though I don't know....I didn't use the GPS very much, because the screen was so small, and the GPS itself was very slow.

Banshee


----------



## John Crichton

Proprietary cables are a massive rip-off in every case.


----------



## Fast Learner

Banshee16 said:


> I don't know if you need a 30 pin connector for that though.  I could be wrong (I'm sure someone will point it out), but when I was using Blackberry, that one micro USB cable powered the device, transferred files, including audio/video...




The "simultaneous" bit comes from a parallel connector like the 30-pin, while USB is, as the "S" indicates, serial. Transferring multiple simultaneous streams of data is where parallel can rock.

However, I suspect this mattered a whole lot more a decade ago. USB 2 (and certainly 3) is plenty fast enough to mimic the same thing with sufficient buffering/caching.


----------



## TheAuldGrump

One of my players has ordered a Xoom, and intends to have his Pathfinder rules live on it. He wanted a large surface, with Android.

Me... a big chunk of me just thinks that a laptop is... just plain more useful.  Mind you, my taste in laptops leans heavily toward, well leaning heavily toward the side holding the laptop carrier.  I favor honking brutes, big enough to actually do some work on, especially mapping using CC3. As a result, they tend to be on the weighty side....

The Auld Grump


----------



## John Crichton

TheAuldGrump said:


> One of my players has ordered a Xoom, and intends to have his Pathfinder rules live on it. He wanted a large surface, with Android.
> 
> Me... a big chunk of me just thinks that a laptop is... just plain more useful.  Mind you, my taste in laptops leans heavily toward, well leaning heavily toward the side holding the laptop carrier.  I favor honking brutes, big enough to actually do some work on, especially mapping using CC3. As a result, they tend to be on the weighty side....
> 
> The Auld Grump



I hear that!  I'm waiting on delivery of a 12 lb beast:  Alienware M18x.


----------



## IronWolf

TheAuldGrump said:


> Me... a big chunk of me just thinks that a laptop is... just plain more useful.  Mind you, my taste in laptops leans heavily toward, well leaning heavily toward the side holding the laptop carrier.  I favor honking brutes, big enough to actually do some work on, especially mapping using CC3. As a result, they tend to be on the weighty side....




If I could only have one I would go for a laptop.  

But being able to have a laptop and tablet works pretty well.  I find the PDF reading on a tablet much better than I do on a laptop.  I also prefer to read my kindle and epub stuff on the tablet as well.  At the gaming table I find it much less obstructive to use a tablet than laptop as well.


----------



## Fast Learner

IronWolf said:


> If I could only have one I would go for a laptop.
> 
> But being able to have a laptop and tablet works pretty well.




Exactly. I read many, many arguments across the net about the 22 ways that laptops are better than tablets, and brother, I'm right there with ya: I love my laptop!

Then there's the list of ways that tablets are better, and I'm totally down with that. I love my iPad and use it many hours a day! 

It's not Highlander, there can be more than one. Just because you have a toaster and an oven doesn't mean toaster ovens are stupid and only purchased by fools/sheep.


----------



## falcarrion

My desktop, Laptop, and Ipad each work fine on there own. I don't see the need to be tied to just one device.  But I find the ipad to be the most portable and the most versitile of the three. In combination.... well use your imagination.


----------



## Banshee16

TheAuldGrump said:


> One of my players has ordered a Xoom, and intends to have his Pathfinder rules live on it. He wanted a large surface, with Android.
> 
> Me... a big chunk of me just thinks that a laptop is... just plain more useful.  Mind you, my taste in laptops leans heavily toward, well leaning heavily toward the side holding the laptop carrier.  I favor honking brutes, big enough to actually do some work on, especially mapping using CC3. As a result, they tend to be on the weighty side....
> 
> The Auld Grump




I suspect it really depends on the person.  I only purchased my first laptop a year and a half ago.....I've always been focused on desktops.  Laptops just seemed inefficient..dollar for dollar, you get less computing power.

But they've got uses.  And tablets are the same way.  I suspect for the majority of users, they're still expensive toys.  But increasingly I'm seeing uses for them in the business world.  No, they're not as powerful as a desktop or even a laptop....but they're pretty flexible, convenient during meetings, for quick research, etc.

Banshee


----------



## TheAuldGrump

Banshee16 said:


> I suspect it really depends on the person.  I only purchased my first laptop a year and a half ago.....I've always been focused on desktops.  Laptops just seemed inefficient..dollar for dollar, you get less computing power.
> 
> But they've got uses.  And tablets are the same way.  I suspect for the majority of users, they're still expensive toys.  But increasingly I'm seeing uses for them in the business world.  No, they're not as powerful as a desktop or even a laptop....but they're pretty flexible, convenient during meetings, for quick research, etc.
> 
> Banshee



No argument there - for me it can be stated as follows:
Desktop>Laptop>>Netbook (duties entirely subsumed by laptop, so unnecessary)>E-Reader (more limited, but does what I would most want from a tablet)>>>Tablet. 

I bought the laptop for travel, and it has served its purpose well. But I pretty much live on my desktop. 

For a tablet my first purchase would be a mouse and a keyboard, which pretty much misses the point. I do own an Archos that I won a few years ago... I haven't seen it in years, and have no idea where I have packed it away. I may have given it to my girlfriend.

The Auld Grump


----------



## IronWolf

TheAuldGrump said:


> Netbook (duties entirely subsumed by laptop, so unnecessary)




Oh yeah, I have one of those as well - received as a gift.  I have found uses for it as well even with the iPad in the house.  Frequently IronPup uses it these days.  And more recently Mrs. IronWolf took it on a road trip instead of her MacBook simply because the netbook packed into her carry-on much more easily.

Though the other option would be to just get a bluetooth keyboard for the iPad and have the netbook/tablet advantage in one device as opposed to the two separate ones I happen to have now.


----------



## catsclaw227

Banshee16 said:


> I suspect it really depends on the person.  I only purchased my first laptop a year and a half ago.....I've always been focused on desktops.  Laptops just seemed inefficient..dollar for dollar, you get less computing power.
> 
> But they've got uses.  And tablets are the same way.  I suspect for the majority of users, they're still expensive toys.  But increasingly I'm seeing uses for them in the business world.  No, they're not as powerful as a desktop or even a laptop....but they're pretty flexible, convenient during meetings, for quick research, etc.



I love my desktop, especially for work/programming.  I have three 22" Acer monitors that I can have Outlook/Word/Excel, Visual Studio, SQL Server Management Studio open at the same time, all visible to me. I also like my natural keyboard, it is much easier for me to type and I imagine that I have cut back a lot of potential Repetitive Stress Syndrome. Also, when I am at my desk working, psychologically, I feel more responsible and get more done.

I also dig my shiny new laptop, a Dell XPS17 I just got a month ago, it's got a honkin' 9cell battery, 17" widescreen, and I use that at the gaming table, on a side folding tray.  It's great for my PDFs and my 4e Combat manager software. (though I still like my table space in front of me to be a traditional DM screen, with paper notes and dice.   )  I couldn't imagine being as productive on my laptop for work though.  

I also like my Droid X phone.  A slightly bigger screen than my old iPhone (which was OK, but I prefer the Android OS) and I use that for when I am at the shopping/grocery store, need to check a bank balance, Yelp a cool new restaurant or check into FourSquared, etc.  Oh and as a phone too. 

So yes, they all have their purposes.


----------



## Alan Shutko

Fast Learner said:


> The "simultaneous" bit comes from a parallel connector like the 30-pin, while USB is, as the "S" indicates, serial. Transferring multiple simultaneous streams of data is where parallel can rock.
> 
> However, I suspect this mattered a whole lot more a decade ago. USB 2 (and certainly 3) is plenty fast enough to mimic the same thing with sufficient buffering/caching.




Doing that might increase the price of some accessories.

The 30-pin connector can output digital signals (easily reproducible with USB) or analog video and audio signals.  That makes various docks, speaker systems, etc cheaper since they don't need to include a DAC.  The video out cables also don't need to do the conversion, so the 30-pin can support component, VGA or HDMI without separate plugs.  

It can control the iDevice, so you can use the accessory remote instead of the phone to fast forward, etc.

The variety of devices available that are compatible with the 30-pin connector is huge, and I haven't seen that variety with the officially standard cables.


----------



## Banshee16

catsclaw227 said:


> I love my desktop, especially for work/programming.  I have three 22" Acer monitors that I can have Outlook/Word/Excel, Visual Studio, SQL Server Management Studio open at the same time, all visible to me. I also like my natural keyboard, it is much easier for me to type and I imagine that I have cut back a lot of potential Repetitive Stress Syndrome. Also, when I am at my desk working, psychologically, I feel more responsible and get more done.
> 
> I also dig my shiny new laptop, a Dell XPS17 I just got a month ago, it's got a honkin' 9cell battery, 17" widescreen, and I use that at the gaming table, on a side folding tray.  It's great for my PDFs and my 4e Combat manager software. (though I still like my table space in front of me to be a traditional DM screen, with paper notes and dice.   )  I couldn't imagine being as productive on my laptop for work though.
> 
> I also like my Droid X phone.  A slightly bigger screen than my old iPhone (which was OK, but I prefer the Android OS) and I use that for when I am at the shopping/grocery store, need to check a bank balance, Yelp a cool new restaurant or check into FourSquared, etc.  Oh and as a phone too.
> 
> So yes, they all have their purposes.




I've started bringing my laptop back and forth with me to the office.  I use it almost as a virtual tower.  I've got an ergonomic keyboard at the office at work, and I plug that, a mouse, and a second monitor.  Laptop keyboards (and by extension netbook and tablet keyboards) are too small to type on for long without risking strain issues.  I find that arrangement seems to work pretty well.

Where I notice issues is the laptop isn't particularly beefy.  It was on sale back in 2009, and was a Vista machine with a free Win7 upgrade.  It scores like 3.1 on the Windows benchmarks.......any time I've got video on screen, or I'm trying to upload big files or I've got multiple programs open, it can chug.  A 4 GB upload to dropbox for one of my developers last night basically bogged the whole unit down and took something like 18 hours to complete.

I can tell where I'd likely add a tablet......it's excellent for meetings....it's so much easier to leave the laptop plugged in on my desk, so I don't have to boot out of whatever I'm working on.  I can leave it plugged in, go to the client's office, not have to worry about if there's a power plug (my laptop will last about an hour or so with no plug), and I can easily pass it around to show what's on the screen to a client.

If I had to choose between a tablet and a netbook I'd likely choose the tablet.  They seem to pretty much do the same thing...but the netbook is too close to gimped laptop.  My understanding is that though tablets have much weaker processers than even a budget laptop, the actual OS' they use are quite snappy and efficient compared to regular OS' like Windows 7.  Kind of like  having a 160 horsepower motor in a car that only weighs 2000 lbs.  No, 160 horsepower isn't much, but the vehicle weighs significantly less than other cars it's competing against, so doesn't *need* as much horsepower to be zippy.

I've got clients using them at conferences, using them to collect sales data from mobile offices when they meet with their own clients, using them to store order forms, so their salespeople can be standing in a clients' office, fill out an order right there, and have it be online instantly, instead of what they were doing before, which was to fill out a paper order form, get the signature, and then have to go back to the office and enter it into a computer manually afterwards.  All those purposes *could* be accomplished by a laptop....no problem...the tablet is just so much more portable.

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16

Alan Shutko said:


> The variety of devices available that are compatible with the 30-pin connector is huge, and I haven't seen that variety with the officially standard cables.




I'm pretty sure that has more to do with the popularity of the iPod/iPhone/iPad family that uses the 30 pin connector over any inherent superiority of the format.

Apple's got better marketing, and they are one device vs. a plethora of other devices.  And they've got the mass popularity angle covered.  Hence, manufacturers have built for their platform.

There *are* docks with the other connectors...ones that will work with Zunes, Blackberries and other devices.  There's just far less variety, and not as many retailers carry them.  But I *have* seen them.

Banshee


----------



## Janx

Normally, I use my laptop with my character in an Excel spreadsheet and hyperlinked galore to d20srd.org.

I moved that sheet to Numbers on my iPad for the last game, and had all the books loaded in in iBooks.

It was great.  The sheet was still easy to use to get my stats and update my inventory and HP.

and the hyperlinks still worked to d20srd.org, so I could open up rules on each skill, feat or spell.

I did not miss the laptop, and actually the iPad took up less space.

I would think the same thing would work on an Android tablet (a spreadsheet ain't a big deal).

As a player, I can't imagine what else I'd need a laptop for at the table, that my iPad can't handle. (well, I could, but do you really need it).

Bear in mind, I'm the kind of player who CAN just use the laptop/iPad for gaming during game time.  My buddy actually called himself out, because he was side-surfing and not paying attention.  I guess I'm more focussed than some folks.  But then, I also don't mindless surf you tube and look up lolcats.

For actual  work, I rock a lenovo t510 on a dock and a lenovo t500 also on a dock, plus a second screen on each.  Makes it nice for running VS2010 + ManglementStudio+Mysql workbench, etc.


----------



## Fast Learner

Alan Shutko said:


> Doing that might increase the price of some accessories.
> 
> The 30-pin connector can output digital signals (easily reproducible with USB) or analog video and audio signals.  That makes various docks, speaker systems, etc cheaper since they don't need to include a DAC.  The video out cables also don't need to do the conversion, so the 30-pin can support component, VGA or HDMI without separate plugs.




Great point.



> It can control the iDevice, so you can use the accessory remote instead of the phone to fast forward, etc.




Ah yes, I neglected to include that. It also provides that nice on-screen on-device volume change when you change the volume on the accessory.


----------



## falcarrion

Via MacRumors and MICgadget, there are reports coming in of a substantial fire and possible explosion at a Foxconn plant that is said to be dedicated primarily to iPad 2 production.


----------



## falcarrion

I found a new app that some of you might like for the Ipad.
It is called " Mindnode".
It is a flowchart type of app.


----------



## IronWolf

falcarrion said:


> I found a new app that some of you might like for the Ipad.
> It is called " Mindnode".
> It is a flowchart type of app.




Oh!  This looks nice.  I needed a Mindmapper tool.  I usually use Freemind on my PCs and such.


----------



## IronWolf

falcarrion said:


> Via MacRumors and MICgadget, there are reports coming in of a substantial fire and possible explosion at a Foxconn plant that is said to be dedicated primarily to iPad 2 production.




Explosion At Foxconn Factory Kills 2, Injures 16 - Slashdot

Explosion Kills 2 at Foxconn Plant - WSJ.com


----------



## Relique du Madde

IronWolf said:


> Oh!  This looks nice.  I needed a Mindmapper tool.  I usually use Freemind on my PCs and such.



I tend to use thinkspace on the xoom.


----------



## falcarrion

According to what I read today on engadet website. A tweet from Samsung stated the Samsung 10.1 should be released in a few days. but what does a few days mean? A week? By friday? the original planned released date is June 8th. Are they planning a sooner release date because of the Apple law suit?

Here is the latest on the lawsuit
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/05/25/samsung_ordered_to_provide_apple_with_prototypes/


----------



## Fast Learner

My guess is that the release will be dependent upon whether Apple asks for (and receives) an injunction against distributing them after their review.


----------



## Alan Shutko

falcarrion said:


> I found a new app that some of you might like for the Ipad.
> It is called " Mindnode".
> It is a flowchart type of app.




I am a happy Mindnode user. It will also run on the iPhone (universal binary, you don't have to buy it twice) but it's naturally a lot better on the bigger space on a tablet.


----------



## falcarrion

Hey android users. There is a guy here that goes by the name Cheeky that has a  Android character sheet app in the android market. You can find the thread he started in the Rpg section. If you pick it up let us know how well it works on the tablets.


----------



## IronWolf

falcarrion said:


> Hey android users. There is a guy here that goes by the name Cheeky that has a  Android character sheet app in the android market. You can find the thread he started in the Rpg section. If you pick it up let us know how well it works on the tablets.




Here is the link to thread:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/rpg-industry-forum/306304-android-app-cheekys-d-d-buddy.html


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## falcarrion

Let face it folks we love our tablets. But what we lack is a format for adventures that we can use. Since the format needs to be generic enough for anyone to use, It comes down to designing better pdfs. So I thought we the "Tablet Ten" ( silly name I came up with) could design a small encounter pdf in a format that would be useful for us. And then we could present it to us Enworld people and get opinons. Basicly I see the need for pdfs to have hyperlinks to the maps in the adventure. So to start things off I created 3 maps. One map of the dungeon. A DM map of the first encounter showing the monsters. And a map for the players of the first encounter.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/22145856/Photo May 26, 12 08 00 PM.png
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/22145856/Photo May 26, 12 12 45 PM.png
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/22145856/Photo May 26, 12 13 37 PM.png


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## Relique du Madde

> Microsoft to Preview Windows Tablet Software
> By Ian King and Dina Bass - May 26, 2011
> 
> Microsoft Corp. (MSFT) will preview its Windows operating system designed for tablet computers in demonstrations planned for next week, according to three people with knowledge of the company’s plans.
> 
> The company will showcase the software’s touch-screen interface running on hardware with an Nvidia Corp. (NVDA) Tegra chip, said the people, who declined to be identified because the plans are confidential. Windows President Steven Sinofsky is scheduled to present at the All Things D conference, while Vice President Steve Guggenheimer will address the Computex show in Taipei.
> 
> Microsoft is rushing to adapt Windows to better support devices that can compete with Apple Inc. (AAPL)’s iPad, which dominates the tablet market. The new operating system won’t be out until next year, people familiar with the plans said in March. Still, the company is eager to show it is moving forward, seeking to generate demand among computer makers and chip suppliers.
> 
> Nvidia’s Tegra microprocessor is based on the ARM Holdings Plc (ARM) technology that dominates the smartphone market. ARM-based chips are also used in the iPad and tablets that run Google Inc. (GOOG)’s Android operating system.
> 
> Mark Martin, a spokesman for Microsoft, declined to comment. The company’s shares rose 48 cents, or 2 percent, to $24.67 at 4 p.m. New York time on the Nasdaq Stock Market. Nvidia gained 46 cents, or 2.5 percent, to $18.82.
> 
> Microsoft Chief Executive Officer Steve Ballmer said earlier this week that machines with the new operating system, which he referred to as Windows 8, would be released in 2012.
> ‘In a Race’
> 
> Microsoft, based in Redmond, Washington, later retracted the comments, claiming they were a misstatement. The company is scrambling to expand Windows to computing devices such as phones and tablets, Ballmer said in a speech in New Delhi today.
> 
> “We are in a race,” he said. “We are not doing that badly, frankly. We are doing pretty well in that race. But the race is on to continue to push Windows to a variety of new form factors.”
> 
> Apple sold 4.69 million iPads in the most recent quarter, for a total of 19.5 million since the device’s April 2010 release. If the next version of Windows does come out on tablets in 2012, Apple will likely be selling its third generation of iPad hardware by then, according to Michael Gartenberg, an analyst at researcher Gartner Inc.
> 
> While Microsoft works on the new Windows software, sales in the operating-system business are taking a hit as some consumers choose iPads instead of less-expensive netbook computers that run Windows.
> PC Shipments Slip
> 
> Consumer personal-computer shipments dropped 8 percent in the quarter, Microsoft Chief Financial Officer Peter Klein said last month. Sales of netbooks plunged 40 percent, partially because of defections to tablet computers, he said.
> 
> That helped make last quarter the second in a row in which Windows revenue fell short of analyst estimates.
> 
> The demonstration may be a boon to Nvidia, a maker of graphics processors for PCs, which is trying to break into the market for tablet computer chips with Tegra. Most tablets are now built with mobile-phone processors made by Texas Instruments Inc. (TXN), Qualcomm Inc. (QCOM) and Samsung Electronics Co.
> 
> Intel Corp. (INTC), whose processors lead in PCs, has been unable to parlay that dominance into design wins in phones and tablets.
> 
> Technology website WinRumors reported earlier that Microsoft will demonstrate the tablet software design at All Things D, which is being held in Rancho Palos Verdes, California.
> 
> To contact the reporters on this story: Ian King in San Francisco at ianking[MENTION=22194]Bloom[/MENTION]berg.net; Dina Bass in Seattle at dbass2[MENTION=22194]Bloom[/MENTION]berg.net
> 
> To contact the editor responsible for this story: Tom Giles at tgiles5[MENTION=22194]Bloom[/MENTION]berg.net




This might be interesting.  If it's a pc in tablet form that is actually usable and has comparable pricing to a netbook or laptop then it will kick major ass.  However, 2012 may be too late to join the game unless OS X also appears on a tablet.


----------



## Fast Learner

> “We are in a race,” he said. “We are not doing that badly, frankly. We are doing pretty well in that race."




No, you're not doing "pretty well" in that race, you're very nearly completely out of that race. Extremely poor handset sales, a software platform you're struggling to get anyone to actually develop for, and a whole host of technical problems. 

I'm not saying that Microsoft is out of it by any means, but it would be generous to say that they're doing "pretty poorly" in the mobile market right now.


----------



## IronWolf

Relique du Madde said:


> This might be interesting.  If it's a pc in tablet form that is actually usable and has comparable pricing to a netbook or laptop then it will kick major ass.  However, 2012 may be too late to join the game unless OS X also appears on a tablet.




I am skeptical of an MS tablet PC offering.  They have done this before, tablet PCs running a windows tablet OS.  Those devices were expensive and not that impressive.  

Sure they could rethink the design, but I sure wouldn't call it a tablet PC for risk of conjurng images of their previous attempts at tablet PCs that never really took off that well.


----------



## falcarrion

What about the surface software?
If they can get it in a tablet format they may have a chance.


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## IronWolf

falcarrion said:


> What about the surface software?
> If they can get it in a tablet format they may have a chance.




That's true.  Good point.  I saw the table at Origins last year and it was cool. Not sure they will pull that off though, but maybe...


----------



## IronWolf

Of course, I suppose the reverse side is what if Apple was to release a table sized iPad...


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## falcarrion

What if both are true? I wouldn't put it pass Apple.


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## Fast Learner

falcarrion said:


> What about the surface software?
> If they can get it in a tablet format they may have a chance.




I played with a Surface a few years ago, putting it through its paces for several hours, and I was quite impressed.

Cut to last month, after I'd had an iPhone for a few years and an iPad for a year; I again had an opportunity to play with a Surface and _man_ was it bad. I didn't realize how accustomed I'd become to the instantaneous and accurate response of those devices: the Surface worked horribly in comparison. I became acutely aware, too, of how none of the software has UI elements in common, making everything a guessing game.

I now believe that the fact that the Surface can recognize multiple touches is still cool, and its ability to sense shapes and stuff due to its camera-based touch sensing (instead of a capacitive sensor) is super cool, but there's nothing behind that to base a tablet OS on.


----------



## falcarrion

Fast Learner said:


> I played with a Surface a few years ago, putting it through its paces for several hours, and I was quite impressed.
> 
> Cut to last month, after I'd had an iPhone for a few years and an iPad for a year; I again had an opportunity to play with a Surface and _man_ was it bad. I didn't realize how accustomed I'd become to the instantaneous and accurate response of those devices: the Surface worked horribly in comparison. I became acutely aware, too, of how none of the software has UI elements in common, making everything a guessing game.
> 
> I now believe that the fact that the Surface can recognize multiple touches is still cool, and its ability to sense shapes and stuff due to its camera-based touch sensing (instead of a capacitive sensor) is super cool, but there's nothing behind that to base a tablet OS on.




the surface 2 doesn't use a camera.


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NesSYWODmM]YouTube - ‪Microsoft Surface 2 Demo - CES 2011‬‏[/ame]


----------



## Fast Learner

falcarrion said:


> the surface 2 doesn't use a camera.




Wow, very cool! Love that sensor tech!

If only that had a good touch OS to sit behind it. The Windows Phone 7 interface is actually pretty cool, though it doesn't seem like it would scale well.


----------



## falcarrion

Fast Learner said:


> Wow, very cool! Love that sensor tech!
> 
> If only that had a good touch OS to sit behind it. The Windows Phone 7 interface is actually pretty cool, though it doesn't seem like it would scale well.




Agreed.

But a nice setup would be the Dm with laptop and/or a tablet, players with tablets and the suface built into a gaming table.


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## falcarrion

It looks like we have new type of tablets coming.
phone/tablet combos.
We have the ASUS padfone and CMIT's Transphone.


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## falcarrion

check this out.
ECS “tablet” houses your iPhone, “runs” its iOS | 9 to 5 Mac


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## Relique du Madde

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irX3p8o_W7k]YouTube - ‪Windows 8 preview‬‏[/ame]


It will run an laptops, desktops, and tablets?!

I'm not sure... but my mind is partially blown.  Problem is that there is so much good and bad with what this video previewed and it seems like no matter what device you run it on, you will loose a good deal of functionality and or the user experience will suffer as a result do to the windows 8's "kitchen sink" approach.


----------



## catsclaw227

Geez.  That is pretty impressive.  So far it looks like a nice melding of traditional windows paradigms the new tablet/smartphone OS paradigms. 

At least it wasn't a vaporware demo, obviously scripted like it was a flash movie.  You can tell he was doing the ADHD clicking and dragging that a developer does when they demo a real running app.   I know when I demo and I get impatient, I'm guilty of mouse tracking and link-clicking.


----------



## Fast Learner

Definitely pulling in some of the goodness of the Windows Phone 7 UI. I agree that there was good and bad, though, so hopefully they'll be able to refine towards the former.


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## John Crichton

I'm highly skeptical of anything Windows in portable form.  They've never been able to cut down the bloat to the point where it would really work on a low powered platform.


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## Relique du Madde

But who said's a tablet has to be a low powered platform?  Think Differently. (heh)  If they are able to get a portable windows os that remains powerful they will successfully change the face of tablet computing while raising the bar.


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## Fast Learner

It'd either have to be a heavy, thick tablet that generated a lot of heat, something that keeps compact tablets (like the iPad or the Xoom) from functioning, with the heat shutting down the processor (or destroying it if the processor doesn't shut down).

Alternately if they made _very_ significant battery advances (quite a bit beyond anything they're realistically looking at for the next couple of years), it'd be a not-so-heavy, not-so-thick tablet that generated a lot of heat and would shut down.

They _could_ build a non-compact tablet where there's room for fans and airflow that was laptop-thick and laptop-heavy that ran full-blown windows and didn't use a low-power processor and... wait, that's what they've done for the last 8 years, and almost nobody bought them.

I'm pretty sure they'll have to go low-power. That's why Microsoft recently announced that the next version of Windows will also run on ARM processors: Intel doesn't have a sufficiently powerful processor that's also cool enough and easy on the battery. They're working on such processors but, even with those it's still a low-power world.


----------



## Janx

Relique du Madde said:


> But who said's a tablet has to be a low powered platform?  Think Differently. (heh)  If they are able to get a portable windows os that remains powerful they will successfully change the face of tablet computing while raising the bar.




To do what?

Why do I need a full blown OS?  Somebody using a tablet is more like the stereotypical user: word, excel, browser, powerpoint

that's it.  Most users need a browser and Word.  "Power users" need excel and powerpoint.

Folks who need anything more, trend to actually need a real computer or laptop.

But your mom, your boss, a salesrep, and office worker?  They don't need that stuff.  Windows95 with Office and a browser was all they needed.

Heck, Windows95 would SCREAM on a modern "slow" processor.  And that too was a full OS.

what makes Windows a Full OS is the code bloat and feature bloat of artsy crap that doesn't actually make your computer better, just slower.


----------



## catsclaw227

I think that's what RdM's point was (or am I wrong?)

They'll be able to scale the OS down in the "tablet version" so that it can do what typical users need, but be powerful enough so that a power-user can still use it for what they need.  

A network admin may want so additional tools that could let him/her work wirelessly at a NOC while wandering around the server room, but the tools may require some other client that a base user wouldn't need (citrix, et. al.)

No reason to tie your hands or paint yourself into obsolesence just because most users aren't power users.  Windows 7 Home is fairly different than Windows 7 Ultimate, but it's the same base OS.


----------



## Relique du Madde

You all made my point lolol.

Remember technology advances and chips and hardware is getting smaller and more powerful.  Eventually heat may not be an as much of an issue as it is today, especially considering that Apple as well as others are trying to come up with ways to minimize heat using gels or something.  This tells me that both Apple and Microsoft know that eventually some people will get tired of "toy OSes" on their tablets and would eventually want something more powerful so they can have the same experience they have on their desk or laptop as well as being able to experience apps and content like they do on their iDevice or Android (sorry MS you lose here)...

This day will come sooner or later and the first person to make this scalable version of their OS would be labeled a genius.  Well actually, let's be realistic, if Microsoft does it 20 years before Apple they will never get credit EVEN if it is better then OS X and iOS combined, but if Apple does this before MS then "OMG STEVE JOBS IS BRILLIANT AND REVOLUTIONARY AND HE REINVENTED THE COMPUTER!"


----------



## catsclaw227

Relique du Madde said:


> This day will come sooner or later and the first person to make this scalable version of their OS would be labeled a genius.  Well actually, let's be realistic, if Microsoft does it 20 years before Apple they will never get credit EVEN if it is better then OS X and iOS combined, but if Apple does this before MS then "OMG STEVE JOBS IS BRILLIANT AND REVOLUTIONARY AND HE REINVENTED THE COMPUTER!"



So true.

It seems that while some MS/Windows users can constructively criticize their favored OS or platform, there appears to be a significantly lower percentage of OS X/iOS/Apple users that do the same.

PC/Windows = boring productive work stuff
Mac/Apple = too cool for words

Yet, I run Photoshop pretty damn efficiently on my screaming PC.


----------



## Janx

catsclaw227 said:


> I think that's what RdM's point was (or am I wrong?)
> 
> They'll be able to scale the OS down in the "tablet version" so that it can do what typical users need, but be powerful enough so that a power-user can still use it for what they need.
> 
> A network admin may want so additional tools that could let him/her work wirelessly at a NOC while wandering around the server room, but the tools may require some other client that a base user wouldn't need (citrix, et. al.)
> 
> No reason to tie your hands or paint yourself into obsolesence just because most users aren't power users.  Windows 7 Home is fairly different than Windows 7 Ultimate, but it's the same base OS.




well, prior to Win7 (as i can't confirm), the only difference was registry settings.  The server OSes gave priority to services, and the desktop flavor gave priority to applications.  the binaries were essentially the same.

in any modern OS, the OS is responsible for:
network stack
GUI stack
process management
backend services (hidden processes)
file system access
security and user identity/authentication management

the problem with MS, is they turn on a zillion theme features, so the start button looks pretty and animated, the desktop has floating widgets, etc.  You start turning that stuff off and your rig will look like a Windows95/W2K box.

most of the problems with Vista is all the crap they turned ON that wraps all the basic stuff.  File copies take forever from a Vista machine because it does a validation on EVERY file, something NT never did before (as it generally was not needed).

The list of OS responsibilities exists in my BB, my Android and in my iThing.  It's all been there since we all moved off DOS.

so when people say they want a full featured OS, I gotta ask, what feature?

I have an 8-track DAW in my iPad, courtesy of GarageBand or similar apps
there are graphics programs, spreadsheets, word processors, mysql interfaces, Remote Desktop and VNC clients, even Webex and Citrix.  I can probably find packet sniffers and wifi decryptors if I tried.  There are SMB clients, etc, so I can navigate file shares.  I can remote into a terminal servver or your PC if I really need "full featuredness"

The full featuredness lies in the apps available (which admittedly, Apple can hamper, Android does not).

The only real limit the hardware/OS places is screen size, and the multi-tasking experience.  You can't see 2 apps at once, and unlike the TaskBar in Windows, what's running and how to switch isn't in your face on the mobile OSes.

So I ask, what does Win7 actually give me that I don't have in iOS/Android that isn't "art" or pre-packaged crap I could have installed independently.

Apps that simply can't exist on mobile devices are more likely constrained by memory and practical usability.  Visual Studio would be a PITA on a small screen with no keyboard/mouse to write code with.  an iScreen with a keyboard would therefore be a desktop computer, and would be usable.  In which case, I don't see any technical reason Visual Studio for iScreen couldn't exist. I also assume, a larger form factor would pack in more memory, as the size of the screen lets them pack in more flat hardware across its form factor.


----------



## Janx

Relique du Madde said:


> This day will come sooner or later and the first person to make this scalable version of their OS would be labeled a genius.  Well actually, let's be realistic, if Microsoft does it 20 years before Apple they will never get credit EVEN if it is better then OS X and iOS combined, but if Apple does this before MS then "OMG STEVE JOBS IS BRILLIANT AND REVOLUTIONARY AND HE REINVENTED THE COMPUTER!"




do you mean like Linux?

Which was running Tivo's 10 years ago?  A mini fw version of linux runs my NAS, which the actual hardware for is smaller than the hard drives it mounts.


Which, unless Mac has changed again, it's based on Unix, which Linux is a clone of.  Both are fairly modular OSes.  There's little reason Mac couldn't have been based on linux (short of personal preferences of Apple designers)


----------



## catsclaw227

Janx said:


> well, prior to Win7 (as i can't confirm), the only difference was registry settings.  The server OSes gave priority to services, and the desktop flavor gave priority to applications.  the binaries were essentially the same.




I don't know either, but I can say that I find it far more responsive than Vista or even XP was, and it seems like the OS has less clutter.  Though, I admit it may only _seem _that way.




Janx said:


> most of the problems with Vista is all the crap they turned ON that wraps all the basic stuff.  File copies take forever from a Vista machine because it does a validation on EVERY file, something NT never did before (as it generally was not needed).




Vista was a bad experiment.  Win7 is what the next evolutionary step from XP should have been.  It, unfortunately, came late to the party.



Janx said:


> Apps that simply can't exist on mobile devices are more likely constrained by memory and practical usability.  Visual Studio would be a PITA on a small screen with no keyboard/mouse to write code with.  an iScreen with a keyboard would therefore be a desktop computer, and would be usable.  In which case, I don't see any technical reason Visual Studio for iScreen couldn't exist. I also assume, a larger form factor would pack in more memory, as the size of the screen lets them pack in more flat hardware across its form factor.



You are right, and you may have explained my point better than I did, but from a different angle.  What I meant by a "tablet" version of the OS was more along the lines of a tablet friendly UI as opposed to a fully featured (>?) UI that would let me better browse file systems, take advantage of running VS, SQL Enterprise Manager, Outlook and view PDFs on my two or three monitors.  A smartphone UI would be even more compact, but the underpinning would be the same.  It maybe a completely services based OS, with different services activated by default (or even with an "install on first use" paradigm) based upon which apps, platform (home vs business) or form-factor (smartphone vs tablet vs notebook/pc) the end user wanted.


----------



## Steel_Wind

I don't expect any manufacturer to be able to effectively compete with Apple in the pure tablet market. With the iPad, Apple's lead is now too large and Apple's cachet too ubiquitous. 

What I have seen this past week coming from Intel at D9, however, makes me wonder if pure tablets may prove to be faddish. The ultra-thin notebook tech coming from Intel in 2012 suggests to me that the biggest competitor for Tablets is going to be ultrathin clamshell laptop/notebooks.

The Asus ultralights using Intel's new chips looked impressive as all hell. And by all accounts, the thickness of these units will decrease even more in 2013, while maintaining battery power.

$800, Wintel based,  thinner-than-a-Mac-Airbook tech has a sexiness all on its own. I am not so sure that Apple will be able to compete against that. The price-point is just WAY too attractive.

As an iPad owner I appreciate that there is a difference between the two platforms. Still, find a way to incorporate Dell's  spinnerama style monitor tech with Intel's ultrathin design and multi-touch Windows 8 with laptop (not just netbook) computing power? At an $800 price point?

Game over.


----------



## Fast Learner

Relique du Madde said:


> Well actually, let's be realistic, if Microsoft does it 20 years before Apple they will never get credit EVEN if it is better then OS X and iOS combined, but if Apple does this before MS then "OMG STEVE JOBS IS BRILLIANT AND REVOLUTIONARY AND HE REINVENTED THE COMPUTER!"




Are there some good examples of amazing breakthroughs made by Microsoft that changed the direction of computing? And if so, that they didn't get credit for?


----------



## GSHamster

Fast Learner said:


> Are there some good examples of amazing breakthroughs made by Microsoft that changed the direction of computing? And if so, that they didn't get credit for?




Not really. MS was really good at hitting the best trade-off between performance, price, usability and backwards-compatibility.  They were never the best at any one thing, except maybe the non-sexy backwards-compatibility, but all their competitors were significantly worse in one area.

They were also, and this is rather underrated, very good at getting devs to produce programs for their platform. Most people use programs, not OSes. If your platform doesn't have the program they need, they go elsewhere.

In some respects, it's arguable that Apple has overtaken MS here with the App store, and that is a key contributor to their success.


----------



## Relique du Madde

Fast Learner said:


> Are there some good examples of amazing breakthroughs made by Microsoft that changed the direction of computing? And if so, that they didn't get credit for?




To some extent Microsoft has created some interesting concepts but they themselves haven't capitalized on them.  For instance, look at the Kinect. That device was originally created that as a game peripheral and in itself was used as an interface with the XBox, but instead of capitalizing on it in for use with Windows, they decided to stand back and hackers come up with new uses for the Kinect in both the fields of robotics and in interface design.

Unfortunately, MS tends to either kill interesting projects or let them sit on the sidelines.



GSHamster said:


> In some respects, it's arguable that Apple has overtaken MS here with the App store, and that is a key contributor to their success.




True, HOWEVER, remember that countries love throwing Anti-Trust lawsuits at MS whenever they try coming up with new services before Apple or any other company is doing it.  If MS tried to create an app store or itunes before Apple they would have been shut down or had the service sold off to the highest bidder.  Instead they had to work on similar services in markets where they did not have saturation, ie video games consoles.

As a result they made a trade off and instead of  focusing their efforts with app store, they decided to focus their efforts on X-Box Live gamer store and making suites.


----------



## Fast Learner

It's what happens when you control 95% of the market: it _is_ anti-competitive in that situation. I'm confident that for that very reason Apple would be ultimately very happy with, say, 40% of the smartphone market and 40% of the tablet market, especially if they are generally leading the way, with other companies mostly catching up to whatever they came up with last year. A greater percentage puts them in similar danger, and a smaller percentage makes less money. (FWIW Apple currently has about 26% of the smartphone market and 75% of the tablet market.)

On the Kinect, I agree, that's a truly innovative technology from Microsoft. The Xbox department seems to have the most permission and impetus to innovate. They get credit for it, though, and if Apple came out with similar technology next week at their developer's conference, Microsoft would still get credit for the tech, I'm certain. (Now, if they managed to do something truly amazing with it in the _mobile_ space it might overshadow Microsoft's achievement).

I'm just saying that Apple really did repeatedly change the face of computing, stuff that literally redefined how computers were used for years to follow:

*Personal Computing*: the Apple II, the first non-kit personal computer, almost a year before the TRS-80 and the Commodore PET;

*Graphic User Interface*: the Macintosh, the first personal computer with a graphical user interface and a mouse, a full year before Windows 1 (which was spectacularly lame, even compared to the very lame early Mac);

*Multitouch All-Screen Smartphone*: it's hard to believe despite the fact that it's only been four years, but prior to the iPhone these devices didn't exist (though the LG Prada and the HTC Touch were announced at about the same time, they weren't multitouch). The biggest innovation, perhaps, is the way the device transforms into the app running on it, something that earlier smartphones and PDAs failed to accomplish.

I'm not at all deifying Apple: they've made plenty of mistakes and even outright crap, and sometimes their innovations were _just the right amount_ of refinement of an existing idea that they later got credit for (e.g. there were tons of mp3 players before the iPod, and many better ones, especially in the early years; iTunes, however, changed things in just the right way). 

Nonetheless, they actually redefined the way the world used computers at least three times, and the same may be true of the iPad. I agree that Microsoft doesn't get credit for much innovation and Apple does, but that's mostly because that's the reality of what happened.

_(I'm no Apple fanboy, to be clear: I use Windows, Linux, and a Mac daily; though I enjoy using the Mac the most, they all have their strengths and places. I loved my Palm III and V and VII; I programmed Windows CE, Pocket PC, and Windows Mobile devices throughout the last decade and really loved them, too. I gave my Droid several months to grow on me and even survived my month with a BlackBerry, but my iPhone is by far my favorite. I even used to use a Windows Tablet PC and generally hailed it, but it didn't change my daily life the way the iPad did. I still give Apple and, to a large extent, Steve Jobs credit for changing personal computing in ways that no other company has managed, though.)_


----------



## Relique du Madde

Not to nitpick, but the Machintosh was only the first commercially  successful computer with a GUI. The real honor goes to the Xerox PARC (Star 8010) which was created in 1981.  Xerox did not patent the icon, file system, or GUI and tried to sue Apple over it when Apple was suing IBM over icons and the GUI concept. (The courts basically said tough luck, you didn't defend your IP concept and the statute of limitations expired.).

But on a side note, the Apple Lisa was the first to use a menu bar.


----------



## Fast Learner

I intentionally used the words "personal computer." The lowest-end Star was $20,000 (and you couldn't buy just the computer, you had to buy terminals and networking equipment and printers, resulting in $50-100,000 packages) and the Lisa was $10,000. Apple's innovation was, in part, producing a GUI personal computer and mouse at an affordable price.

Moreover, the story of Apple taking the GUI from Xerox isn't actually true, though it's extremely common lore. There are a couple of key elements that aren't well known. 

The first is that Steve Jobs actually paid Xerox for an opportunity to see the Smalltalk IDE they were using -- not an OS GUI, just an IDE that used a mouse and had a small subset of the things in the Mac GUI (and even then the ones Xerox had didn't work well, e.g. windows didn't redraw when you moved or closed something in front of them, you had to click them to get them to do so). This was prior to the Star's release, and Apple didn't see the Star until everyone else did, when it was released. (Of interest only to extreme nerds like me, "Star" was the name of the software, the workstation was the Rank Xerox 8110.)

The second is that a great number of the elements of what became the personal computer GUI were invented by the Lisa and Mac teams, including drag-and-drop file manipulation; direct manipulation of file, folder, and disk names; multiple views of the file system; desk accessories; control panels; pull-down menus; and the clipboard. The Xerox Star contained none of these things, either.

Still, not the first computer with a GUI, just the first personal computer.


----------



## falcarrion

Most people forget about the compaq " Ipaq pocket pc". It ran windows mobile.


----------



## Fast Learner

falcarrion said:


> Most people forget about the compaq " Ipaq pocket pc". It ran windows mobile.




Indeed, it was my favorite at the time. For the first few years they ran the Windows CE versions referred to as Pocket PC; in 2003 new models ran the Windows CE version called Windows Mobile. Ipaqs were pretty much the best you could buy, and the versions with phones and data connections were very popular in mobile industries; I did quite a bit of work for construction companies who used them for project management, inspections, etc., out in the field.


----------



## Janx

I bought my Compaq PC Companion in 1998.  It ran Win CE 2.0 if i recall.

The only thingi use multitouch for is resizing and rotating. Useful, but not dramatic.

The problem with WinCE was the winows metaphor took up too much onscreen space on small screen.

Ios has a clean look that functional.


----------



## John Crichton

Relique du Madde said:


> But who said's a tablet has to be a low powered platform?  Think Differently. (heh)  If they are able to get a portable windows os that remains powerful they will successfully change the face of tablet computing while raising the bar.



While the point was explained earlier the fact remains that any tablet of a usable size is going to have limitations on what it can do, hence it will have to be low powered by definition when looking at the entire spectrum of consumer computers can do.  

I completely agree with all the other points being made about that amount of power being enough for many users, including myself.  I remember selling the iPAQs and wondered why they never got more attention for what they could do.  So there have been Windows mobile platforms with various levels of success.  Still, I remain skeptical as none of remained around long enough to make a good impression.  Be it cost, bad marketing or neglect they still have a way to go.


----------



## falcarrion

Well today is the start of WWDC. It will be interesting to see what Apple has up there sleeves. We know they will be talking about Lion, iOS 5, and the Icloud. Will we see any new products? Will we see the Ipad 3? A new nano?
Maybe a Itable device?


----------



## IronWolf

falcarrion said:


> Well today is the start of WWDC. It will be interesting to see what Apple has up there sleeves. We know they will be talking about Lion, iOS 5, and the Icloud. Will we see any new products? Will we see the Ipad 3? A new nano?
> Maybe a Itable device?




Hopefully an interesting news day for Apple!


----------



## Fast Learner

I don't expect any major new hardware: no iPhone, no iPad, no iPod. There could be some minor new hardware: Time Capsule, maybe Apple TV.

I do expect some pretty damned cool software, however: iOS 5 with things no one's considered, or at least thought feasible, and hopefully some kind of magic-y seeming cloud integration between all things iOS and Mac.

I'm excited, but not as excited as I'd be if new hardware was likely, especially since it's time to replace my phone.


----------



## Banshee16

Fast Learner said:


> It's what happens when you control 95% of the market: it _is_ anti-competitive in that situation. I'm confident that for that very reason Apple would be ultimately very happy with, say, 40% of the smartphone market and 40% of the tablet market, especially if they are generally leading the way, with other companies mostly catching up to whatever they came up with last year. A greater percentage puts them in similar danger, and a smaller percentage makes less money. (FWIW Apple currently has about 26% of the smartphone market and 75% of the tablet market.)
> 
> On the Kinect, I agree, that's a truly innovative technology from Microsoft. The Xbox department seems to have the most permission and impetus to innovate. They get credit for it, though, and if Apple came out with similar technology next week at their developer's conference, Microsoft would still get credit for the tech, I'm certain. (Now, if they managed to do something truly amazing with it in the _mobile_ space it might overshadow Microsoft's achievement).
> 
> I'm just saying that Apple really did repeatedly change the face of computing, stuff that literally redefined how computers were used for years to follow:
> 
> *Personal Computing*: the Apple II, the first non-kit personal computer, almost a year before the TRS-80 and the Commodore PET;
> 
> *Graphic User Interface*: the Macintosh, the first personal computer with a graphical user interface and a mouse, a full year before Windows 1 (which was spectacularly lame, even compared to the very lame early Mac);
> 
> *Multitouch All-Screen Smartphone*: it's hard to believe despite the fact that it's only been four years, but prior to the iPhone these devices didn't exist (though the LG Prada and the HTC Touch were announced at about the same time, they weren't multitouch). The biggest innovation, perhaps, is the way the device transforms into the app running on it, something that earlier smartphones and PDAs failed to accomplish.
> 
> I'm not at all deifying Apple: they've made plenty of mistakes and even outright crap, and sometimes their innovations were _just the right amount_ of refinement of an existing idea that they later got credit for (e.g. there were tons of mp3 players before the iPod, and many better ones, especially in the early years; iTunes, however, changed things in just the right way).
> 
> Nonetheless, they actually redefined the way the world used computers at least three times, and the same may be true of the iPad. I agree that Microsoft doesn't get credit for much innovation and Apple does, but that's mostly because that's the reality of what happened.
> 
> _(I'm no Apple fanboy, to be clear: I use Windows, Linux, and a Mac daily; though I enjoy using the Mac the most, they all have their strengths and places. I loved my Palm III and V and VII; I programmed Windows CE, Pocket PC, and Windows Mobile devices throughout the last decade and really loved them, too. I gave my Droid several months to grow on me and even survived my month with a BlackBerry, but my iPhone is by far my favorite. I even used to use a Windows Tablet PC and generally hailed it, but it didn't change my daily life the way the iPad did. I still give Apple and, to a large extent, Steve Jobs credit for changing personal computing in ways that no other company has managed, though.)_




Now, I've read in a few places that regarding innovation, there are some pearls of truth to Apple not being as innovative as they claim.  I'll try to find a link to the discussions, but I came across a few articles where Microsoft, Samsung, and Apple people were duking it out, and the Apple guys were calling the Samsung guys and Microsoft guys copycats, and one of the Samsung guys pointed out that in most years Samsung and Microsoft patent *far* more new technology than Apple does.  I think 2010 was the first year Apple  had more than a handful.....in several of the example years, it was something crazy like Samsung 80 patents, Microsoft 77 patents, and Apple 3 patents.

I can't speak to the accuracy of the statements, and I'm not sure how I'd even look that up.

Banshee


----------



## IronWolf

Banshee16 said:


> I'll try to find a link to the discussions, but I came across a few articles where Microsoft, Samsung, and Apple people were duking it out, and the Apple guys were calling the Samsung guys and Microsoft guys copycats, and one of the Samsung guys pointed out that in most years Samsung and Microsoft patent *far* more new technology than Apple does.  I think 2010 was the first year Apple  had more than a handful.....in several of the example years, it was something crazy like Samsung 80 patents, Microsoft 77 patents, and Apple 3 patents.




I am not sure I would say the number of patents filed are necessarily indicative of how innovative a company is.  Of course that isn't to say that I think Apple is more or less innovative - just not sure number of patents filed is a good measure innovation.


----------



## Alan Shutko

Samsung and Microsoft both have great research arms and come up with a lot of new things.  Where Apple excels, I think, is in putting the pieces together in a way that works well together and that's customer-friendly.

The iPod wasn't the first MP3 player, the iPhone wasn't the first smartphone, the iPad wasn't the first tablet.  But in each case, Apple put the pieces together in a way that none of the other companies had, that made it work better.  In fact, I think the biggest innovation on the iPhone wasn't a technical one at all: it was getting control away from the carriers so that Apple could control the experience.

For example, until the iPhone came out, location-aware apps were really scarce on smartphones.  The phones had the capabilities, but they were often locked away by carriers so you couldn't use them until you'd signed some specific and arcane agreement with each carrier you wanted to be on. On many otherwise capable devices, the carrier had locked out features or applications completely.


----------



## Banshee16

Alan Shutko said:


> Samsung and Microsoft both have great research arms and come up with a lot of new things.  Where Apple excels, I think, is in putting the pieces together in a way that works well together and that's customer-friendly.
> 
> The iPod wasn't the first MP3 player, the iPhone wasn't the first smartphone, the iPad wasn't the first tablet.  But in each case, Apple put the pieces together in a way that none of the other companies had, that made it work better.  In fact, I think the biggest innovation on the iPhone wasn't a technical one at all: it was getting control away from the carriers so that Apple could control the experience.
> 
> For example, until the iPhone came out, location-aware apps were really scarce on smartphones.  The phones had the capabilities, but they were often locked away by carriers so you couldn't use them until you'd signed some specific and arcane agreement with each carrier you wanted to be on. On many otherwise capable devices, the carrier had locked out features or applications completely.




That makes intuitive sense to me.  That could be the kind of thing they were referring to.

Apple *is* a master of both marketing, and making easy to use products, for the regular masses.  But I think back to stuff that they've created, and I can think of very little where they were first.  Even with some of their best devices, such as the iPhone, I can think of companies with other devices that do individual things better.....but Apple almost seems to be consistently #2 at pretty much everything, making their devices very solid choices....instead of being #1 at one feature, but then #5 or #10 at a bunch of others.

Banshee


----------



## falcarrion

Fast Learner said:


> I don't expect any major new hardware: no iPhone, no iPad, no iPod. There could be some minor new hardware: Time Capsule, maybe Apple TV.
> 
> I do expect some pretty damned cool software, however: iOS 5 with things no one's considered, or at least thought feasible, and hopefully some kind of magic-y seeming cloud integration between all things iOS and Mac.
> 
> I'm excited, but not as excited as I'd be if new hardware was likely, especially since it's time to replace my phone.




No new hardware was anounced.
iOS5 will changes in mail, tabs in Safari, and iMessage (instant messages).
iCloud is free. But if you have music ripped from cd etc. It will cost you $25 a year to store them in the cloud. If you bought them through Itunes storage is free. You get 5g to use for files. Anything on your camera roll automaticly is saved in the cloud and on your computer. Make sure you organize your pics in files or they get deleted in thrity days on the cloud. As of today moble me is dead.
There is alot more to iOS5 and the iCloud then I listed so check it out.


----------



## Morrus

The cloud stuf is great. It's an "yeah, about friggin time!" evolution rather than a revolution, but it_ is_ about friggin time. This is how IP should always have been handled with digital media. 

Combined with the PC-Free stuff, this is a bigger evolotion than it sounds. 

Plenty of compaines do some of this quite well; hopefully Apple is gonna do all of this very well.  Nothing new or exciting, but taking ideas that exist already and putting them together in a good way.


----------



## falcarrion

Morrus said:


> The cloud stuf is great. It's an "yeah, about friggin time!" evolution rather than a revolution, but it_ is_ about friggin time. This is how IP should always have been handled with digital media.
> 
> Combined with the PC-Free stuff, this is a bigger evolotion than it sounds.
> 
> Plenty of compaines do some of this quite well; hopefully Apple is gonna do all of this very well.  Nothing new or exciting, but taking ideas that exist already and putting them together in a good way.




I also think the icloud is nice except for ripped cd's. If I have to pay $25 every year to keep my ripped cd's in iCloud. It's just not worth it to me.
If I only had to pay it once  and it would be there forever no problem.
If it was only a couple of cds, I would repurchase. but their is no way I'm going to repurchase around 100 cd's.
I'll just keep them in itunes and load what I want at the time.


----------



## Fast Learner

On paying, it's a pretty great price, imo, cheaper than Dropbox, say, and cheaper than their direct competitors, Google's and Amazon's music locker thingies

On today's announcements, what they showed on stage is just a sliver of what's happening on the back-end developer side: there are going to be some truly awesome, even mind-blowing apps coming out this Fall because Apple provided incredible new tools and frameworks.


----------



## Relique du Madde

Fast Learner said:


> On paying, it's a pretty great price, imo, cheaper than Dropbox, say, and cheaper than their direct competitors, Google's and Amazon's music locker thingies
> .




Currently Google's  Music Beta is CURRENTLY FREE for 5gb / 20k songs.  No pricing plan announced. 

Currently Amazon's Cloud Player is FREE for 5gb / 20k songs. 
 $20/20gb... $50/50gb.. etc.  (Basically $1 per GB).


----------



## catsclaw227

Relique du Madde said:


> Currently Google's  Music Beta is CURRENTLY FREE for 5gb / 20k songs.  No pricing plan announced.
> 
> Currently Amazon's Cloud Player is FREE for 5gb / 20k songs.
> $20/20gb... $50/50gb.. etc.  (Basically $1 per GB).




And since I am an Amazon Prime customer, I got 20GB for free.  As well as a TON of TV shows and movies.


----------



## falcarrion

I may not be happy with the whole ripped cd thing. but there is alot more to the icloud then just music. 

1. there is photo streaming. Take a pic on the iphone, and it automaticly loads on the cloud and is pushed to your other iOS devices and your computer automaticly. These photos do not count against your 5g. 
2. Apps are backedup and pushed to your devices automaticly. 
3.contacts same thing.
4. calenders. automaticly updates and pushes to other devices.

Basicly it is docs, backups, and mail that chews ups the 5g.
Stuff you purchase from Itunes is free.


----------



## Fast Learner

Relique du Madde said:


> Currently Google's  Music Beta is CURRENTLY FREE for 5gb / 20k songs.  No pricing plan announced.
> 
> Currently Amazon's Cloud Player is FREE for 5gb / 20k songs.
> $20/20gb... $50/50gb.. etc.  (Basically $1 per GB).




Right. Apple also gives you 5GB free, though because they actually made deals with the record labels, you can't store ripped music in it. $25 at Apple gives you unlimited storage. Google has announced that they will charge for the extra space, they just haven't announced how much, and Amazon's is, obviously, more expensive once you go over 25GB. And you don't have to upload most of your music with Apple: higher quality versions are already there.

The real trick will be this: the record labels will sue the hell out of Google and Amazon, and their programs will radically change.

On the 5GB that's free from Apple, in addition to the things *falcarrion* listed, it will also be used by 3rd party apps to perfectly sync their state. As examples:

You're playing Angry Birds on your iPhone and you pause as you get off the bus. You walk into your home and sit down at your laptop or desktop computer and when you launch Angry Birds it's paused at the exact same place, with the same score and status and all, where you continue playing. After a few levels you pause it again and later that night while watching a boring tv show you pick up your iPad and launch Angry Birds again where it's paused at the same place you left it at earlier.

Or you're editing a word processing document on your laptop; you've made a variety of changes and have some text selected when you have to leave. The next day on a desktop computer at work you open the file from the could and not only is it scrolled to the same place and the same text is highlighted, but the Undo command steps you back through changes you made on the laptop the day before. Later that night you open it on your iPad and poof, same thing.

It's a lot more than a place to store some music, or even store some files.


----------



## Fast Learner

Of note, anything you buy or have ever bought from iTunes doesn't count against the 5GB, nor do any of your photos.


----------



## Relique du Madde

Fast Learner said:


> Right. Apple also gives you 5GB free, though because they actually made deals with the record labels, you can't store ripped music in it. $25 at Apple gives you unlimited storage. Google has announced that they will charge for the extra space, they just haven't announced how much, and Amazon's is, obviously, more expensive once you go over 25GB. And you don't have to upload most of your music with Apple: higher quality versions are already there.
> 
> The real trick will be this: the record labels will sue the hell out of Google and Amazon, and their programs will radically change.



You are assuming that Google and Amazon won't use their collective powers (via search manipulation and direct sales) to force the record/movie companies to come to reasonable terms especially since they already have previous agreements with those companies. 



> You're playing Angry Birds on your iPhone and you pause as you get off the bus. You walk into your home and sit down at your laptop or desktop computer and when you launch Angry Birds it's paused at the exact same place, with the same score and status and all, where you continue playing. After a few levels you pause it again and later that night while watching a boring tv show you pick up your iPad and launch Angry Birds again where it's paused at the same place you left it at earlier.
> 
> Or you're editing a word processing document on your laptop; you've made a variety of changes and have some text selected when you have to leave. The next day on a desktop computer at work you open the file from the could and not only is it scrolled to the same place and the same text is highlighted, but the Undo command steps you back through changes you made on the laptop the day before. Later that night you open it on your iPad and poof, same thing.
> 
> It's a lot more than a place to store some music, or even store some files.



 Those type of cloud services already exist on individual apps on the Android and the iOS.

However, I don't see Google doing that soon with all their apps for one reason:  



			
				Misc. Anti-Google Privacy Activists/Advocate said:
			
		

> Google having the ability to see everything I do with my android is EVIL!  BAD GOOGLE!  DON't SPY ON ME BRO!!!!   BIG BROTHER IS HERE!!!  I WANT MY PRIVACY!!  Keep your evil eyes off my info!  WWWWWWAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!




It seriously boggles my mind how Apple, Microsoft, Facebook and everyone lese get's the pass at doing things that Google would get trolled on for doing.


----------



## Relique du Madde

Fast Learner said:


> Of note, anything you buy or have ever bought from iTunes doesn't count against the 5GB, nor do any of your photos.




Yeah, but those photos are routinely deleted to make more space.


----------



## Fast Learner

Relique du Madde said:


> You are assuming that Google and Amazon won't use their collective powers (via search manipulation and direct sales) to force the record/movie companies to come to reasonable terms especially since they already have previous agreements with those companies.



I assume that Google and Amazon will end up paying the record labels, which means they'll charge you. Not sure there are any scenarios where the record labels say, "Apple's paying us for the rights, but we're totally fine with you guys not paying us." Apple sells way, way more music than everyone else combined, so if they can't get away with -- potentially -- people storing their pirated music on the company's cloud servers without compensating the labels for it, you can be sure the smaller guys won't.



> Those type of cloud services already exist on individual apps on the Android and the iOS.




Indeed. It's the system-wide low-level no-additional-service-required (e.g. Dropbox or others) nature of the system that I find exciting. Without violating my NDA, suffice it to say that said syncing is no more difficult than saving a file locally.



> However, I don't see Google doing that soon with all their apps for one reason:
> 
> 
> 
> *Originally Posted by Misc. Anti-Google Privacy Activists/Advocate*
> _Google having the ability to see everything I do with my android is EVIL! BAD GOOGLE! DON't SPY ON ME BRO!!!! BIG BROTHER IS HERE!!! I WANT MY PRIVACY!! Keep your evil eyes off my info! WWWWWWAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It seriously boggles my mind how Apple, Microsoft, Facebook and everyone lese get's the pass at doing things that Google would get trolled on for doing.
Click to expand...



Yeah, not sure what to say other that "sucks to be Google," I guess. Though Facebook gets similar wailing, and Apple went through a big round of it a month ago.



Relique du Madde said:


> Yeah, but those photos are routinely deleted to make more space.




Only from your mobile devices, not from any laptops or desktops, and not from your mobile devices if you simply group them in an album on the device. Only the last 1,000 "loose" photos have the FIFO deletion.


----------



## Janx

well, we'll see how useful iCloud will be.

The majority of my music is 50GB of my ripped CDs.  Apple can't help me there, I still need iTunes and my NAS.

I'm not interested in streaming my music to my player.  That's a waste of bandwidth (given how U-Verse wants to cap usage and charge for overage and the carriers new data plans have limits).

Having my music digitally registered in a Digital Vault (sony's working on some such thing), and being able to restore it to a device (or swap out songs) would be useful, in that it puts the onus on them to store it, not me.

I'm suprised Google never released a Google Docs app, as that inherently would have been doing the cloud thing.

As far as privacy concerns, Google gets nailed because people are surprised at the myriad ways Google is able to mine and use your data that aren't obvious to a lay-person who thinks "they're just a search engine"

FaceBook has never been about privacy, and everybody has drunk the cool-aid that your putting your private information into a public facing machine.  Heck, the whole nature of it is to share your private thoughts with everybody you know.

I'll have to read more details about iCloud.  At the moment, I'm not seeing how its going to solve any problems for me.


----------



## falcarrion

when iOS5 is release, the usefulness of Icloud may become more aperent.
Once iOS5 is released you never have to sync with a computer again. All the info on your iOS device is stored on the icloud. 
Lets say you buy a new iphone. you type your apple acount info in and all your stuff load automaticly on your new phone.


----------



## falcarrion

Lets talk about memory for a moment.
If you have the following you will get 13gb of free cloud storage.
Dropbox 3gb
netbox   5gb
icloud     5gb

not bad for free.
I could down load a file from drop box to my Ipad.
with the Icloud it is now on my iphone, Ipad and itouch.
I can then make changes to it on any of the devices and the changes are saved on all at the same time. I then can load it back into dropbox.
and if I want to I can remove it from the icloud.


----------



## falcarrion

Janx said:


> I'm not interested in streaming my music to my player.  That's a waste of bandwidth (given how U-Verse wants to cap usage and charge for overage and the carriers new data plans have limits).



Icloud doesn't stream the music. Icloud is done on wifi. And you can if you wish to turn Icloud off.


----------



## Relique du Madde

There IS a google docs app, its called "Docs" I'm. Not sure if its on the iOS though.


----------



## falcarrion

Relique du Madde said:


> There IS a google docs app, its called "Docs" I'm. Not sure if its on the iOS though.




I did find this app : GoDocs for ipad/iphone (google docs full support)
the app cost $4.99


----------



## falcarrion

I just saw a video on how air play will work on an ipad and an apple tv box.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyzmX_s8xiM&feature=player_embedded]YouTube - ‪IOS5 iPad Display Mirroring (2)‬‏[/ame]


----------



## Janx

falcarrion said:


> when iOS5 is release, the usefulness of Icloud may become more aperent.
> Once iOS5 is released you never have to sync with a computer again. All the info on your iOS device is stored on the icloud.
> Lets say you buy a new iphone. you type your apple acount info in and all your stuff load automaticly on your new phone.




I use GoogleSync for my contacts, calendar.  I literrally setup my new phone in a minute while standing in the store.

Apps, Apple should do that already, they already have the AppId's associated with your account.

Music is the trickier part.  Songs you bought from iTunes, just like Apps are no big deal. It's the ripped stuff that complicates things.

Application data, i'm only partially interested in.  Namely documents.  I suppose it would be handy for moving to new phones though...


----------



## falcarrion

Well it looks like the samsung thin tablet will be a bit thicker.
It seems they have run into some trouble getting the lcds they need.
So they had to get a thicker one. Thus increasing the thickness of their tablet.


----------



## Relique du Madde

From what I read the issue directly effects the 8.9 inch model, however there are disputing claims if it also includes the 10.1 inch as well. 

On a side note, the Limited edition Galaxy Pad 10.1 Limited edition has been upgraded to Android 3.1.  It's starting to look like Android 3.0 was the shortest lived version of android.


----------



## falcarrion

I was going thru the internet trying to find all the tablets being released in june.

If I miss one add it to the list

Asus EeePad Transformer
Archos  Gen 9
Samsung Galaxy
Rims Playbook
Intel MeeGo
HTC  Flyer and EVO View 4g
Dell  ?
Acer  Iconia Tab A100 and Iconia tab 500
Toshiba Thrive
MSI ?
Arnova ?


----------



## Relique du Madde

The iconia and the transformer were already released (in the US that is).  However from what I understand Asus low barred their order, ran out of stock, and had to restart production.


----------



## Relique du Madde

> Samsung Mobile Seals Landmark Agreement with American Airlines to Provide Galaxy Tab™ 10.1 for Premium Class In-Flight Entertainment
> 
> American Airlines Becomes First North American Airline to Feature Branded Tablets Onboard by Ordering the World's Thinnest Mobile Tablet Currently Available
> 
> DALLAS, June 13, 2011 – Samsung Telecommunications America (Samsung Mobile), the No. 1 mobile phone provider in the U.S.[1], today announced that American Airlines will offer Galaxy Tab™ 10.1 mobile tablets for premium class in-flight entertainment.
> 
> "Earlier this month we made history by launching the world's thinnest large screen tablet currently available and today we unveil another first with American Airlines' selection of the Galaxy Tab 10.1," said Dale Sohn, President of Samsung Mobile.
> 
> American Airlines, a founding member of the oneworld® Alliance, plans to deploy 6,000 of the new Galaxy Tab 10.1 devices onboard select flights beginning later this year. The tablets will replace the airline's current personal entertainment device in American's premium cabins on transcontinental flights between New York's JFK and Los Angeles, JFK and San Francisco, and Miami and Los Angeles served with 767-200 and 767-300 aircraft; international flights to and from Europe and South America served with 767-300 aircraft; and transcontinental flights departing from Boston to Los Angeles served with 757 aircraft.
> 
> "Our engagement with American Airlines further illustrates the growing interest and demand we're seeing from enterprise customers for the Samsung Galaxy portfolio," said Tim Wagner, vice president and general manager of enterprise sales for Samsung Mobile. "As we continue to grow our enterprise customer base, we're committed to empowering a connected mobile workforce and enabling leading companies like American Airlines to enhance their customers' experience by providing world-class entertainment and enterprise-ready devices."
> 
> The Galaxy Tab 10.1 combines the Android platform, ultra-slim, lightweight design, a brilliant 10-inch touchscreen and array of applications enhancing the in-flight entertainment experience for travelers onboard American Airlines.
> 
> "Through our agreement with Samsung, American is the first North American airline to offer a branded tablet onboard its aircraft," said Virasb Vahidi, American's Chief Commercial Officer. "We are working hard to revitalize our fleet and invest wisely in new products and services to modernize and enhance the travel experience. Working with Samsung to outfit our premium cabins with the innovative Galaxy Tab will give our premium customers a modern and innovative in-flight entertainment experience."
> 
> The Galaxy Tab 10.1 is a WiFi-enabled tablet that measures at just 8.6 millimeters slim, making it the thinnest large screen tablet currently available in the world. The Galaxy Tab 10.1 is powered by the Android™ 3.1 (Honeycomb) platform, offering faster and smoother transitions between different applications, more intuitive navigation to and from home screens and broader support of USB accessories, external keyboards, joysticks and gamepads. Samsung will customize the Galaxy Tab for American's in-flight entertainment needs, including the addition of expanded memory.
> 
> The Samsung Galaxy Tab 10.1 WiFi edition is currently available exclusively at the Best Buy Union Square location in New York City. Starting June 17, the Galaxy Tab 10.1 will be available nationwide. Visit SAMSUNG and Airline Tickets and Airline Reservations from American Airlines | AA.com for additional details.
> 
> 1 Number one mobile phone provider in the U.S claim for Samsung Mobile based upon reported shipment data, according to Strategy Analytics, Q1 2011 U.S. Market Share Handset Shipments Reports.
> 
> About Samsung Telecommunications America
> 
> Samsung Telecommunications America, LLC, a Dallas-based subsidiary of Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd., researches, develops and markets wireless handsets and telecommunications products throughout North America. For more information, please visit www.samsungwireless.com.
> 
> About Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.
> 
> Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. is a global leader in semiconductor, telecommunication, digital media and digital convergence technologies with 2010 consolidated sales of US$135.8 billion. Employing approximately 190,500 people in 206 offices across 68 countries, the company consists of eight independently operated business units: Visual Display, Mobile Communications, Telecommunication Systems, Digital Appliances, IT Solutions, Digital Imaging, Semiconductor and LCD. Recognized as one of the fastest growing global brands, Samsung Electronics is a leading producer of digital TVs, semiconductor chips, mobile phones and TFT-LCDs. For more information, please visit SAMSUNG.
> 
> About American Airlines
> 
> American Airlines, American Eagle and AmericanConnection® serve 250 cities in 50 countries with, on average, more than 3,600 daily flights. The combined network fleet numbers more than 900 aircraft. American's award-winning website, AA.com®, provides users with easy access to check and book fares, plus personalized news, information and travel offers. American Airlines is a founding member of the oneworld® Alliance, which brings together some of the best and biggest names in the airline business, enabling them to offer their customers more services and benefits than any airline can provide on its own.Together, its members serve approximately 900 destinations with more than 9,000 daily flights to 145 countries and territories. American Airlines, Inc. and American Eagle Airlines, Inc. are subsidiaries of AMR Corporation. AmericanAirlines, American Eagle, AmericanConnection, AA.com, and AAdvantage are trademarks of American Airlines, Inc. (NYSE: AMR). Android is a trademark of Google, Inc.




Everyone likes jumping to iPads for use with different services, however, this is a *MAJOR* game changer since it shows that major companies now think Android is a viable platform for the consumption of entertainment.


----------



## Fast Learner

Relique du Madde said:


> Everyone likes jumping to iPads for use with different services, however, this is a *MAJOR* game changer since it shows that major companies now think Android is a viable platform for the consumption of entertainment.




You're assuming that AA weighed its options and decided to buy tablets from Samsung rather than buying iPads; it's very likely that the opposite is true. Samsung is thrilled to be able to pay American Airlines to offer the use of their tablets to first class passengers; Apple has no need to do so.


----------



## catsclaw227

Fast Learner said:


> You're assuming that AA weighed its options and decided to buy tablets from Samsung rather than buying iPads; it's very likely that the opposite is true. Samsung is thrilled to be able to pay American Airlines to offer the use of their tablets to first class passengers; Apple has no need to do so.




Well, you're making as much of an assumption as you claim RdM is making.  Apple would be thrilled with the TV and print marketing that comes with having a major airline tout your technology.  Do you think Apple wants Samsung to pick up contracts like this? The second or third largest carrier in the world will be running global TV spots advertising this service.


----------



## Fast Learner

catsclaw227 said:


> Well, you're making as much of an assumption as you claim RdM is making.  Apple would be thrilled with the TV and print marketing that comes with having a major airline tout your technology.  Do you think Apple wants Samsung to pick up contracts like this? The second or third largest carrier in the world will be running global TV spots advertising this service.




I agree that I'm making an assumption, but it's based on actual market position. The PR is very limited and will be completely over in 24 hours.

American isn't going to run TV spots with the info because _it only applies to premium cabin seats_. They don't advertise their first class amenities anywhere most people will see them, and while they do limited advertising of their business class service, its restricted to very few ads in print periodicals (and extremely rarely on television during the Sunday morning news shows).

So no, I don't think Apple is worried about it. Would it be nice if they were iPads and the press release was for Apple? Sure. But it's not something anyone in Cupertino is getting yelled at over this morning.


----------



## Fast Learner

I'll add that if these tablets were distributed to every passenger then it would indeed be huge; that would take a whole lot more than 6,000 devices, though.


----------



## catsclaw227

Fast Learner said:


> I'll add that if these tablets were distributed to every passenger then it would indeed be huge; that would take a whole lot more than 6,000 devices, though.



Phones and eventually Internet access were previously only available to first class flyers as well.  It took Phones about 5-8 years to go coach, and internet access less time. When wireless access was something that was originally marketed for first class, it was then opened up to everyone right away (mostly because it's hard to keep a plane-wide wireless access login secret for too long).  

I wouldn't be surprised if tablets are available to be distributed to coach customers for a fee in the next 18 months.


----------



## Janx

catsclaw227 said:


> Phones and eventually Internet access were previously only available to first class flyers as well.  It took Phones about 5-8 years to go coach, and internet access less time. When wireless access was something that was originally marketed for first class, it was then opened up to everyone right away (mostly because it's hard to keep a plane-wide wireless access login secret for too long).
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if tablets are available to be distributed to coach customers for a fee in the next 18 months.




Why would they bother?

A 1st class passenger can afford a smartphone or tablet. Since they tend to be heavily personalized (apps, etc), why would I want to use a shared tablet that has somebody else's cooties on it when I could use my own?

Just like not needing those stupid screens on the back of seats.  I have an iThing.  It plays movies.  Don't need to pay for theirs, let alone be restricted to their content.

While I'm sure there's some saps who'd pay for it, I think the # of haves is increasing rapidly, and there will be diminishing, if any demand for the service.


----------



## catsclaw227

Janx said:


> While I'm sure there's some saps who'd pay for it, I think the # of haves is increasing rapidly, and there will be diminishing, if any demand for the service.



Maybe... and I could be wrong here, but I think you are overestimating the number of general consumers that have a tablet or even an iThing.  You and I are technology consumers, so we aren't indicative of the general population.  In addition, they could also restrict wireless access to their tablets in flight.


----------



## catsclaw227

Janx said:


> While I'm sure there's some saps who'd pay for it, I think the # of haves is increasing rapidly, and there will be diminishing, if any demand for the service.




My mom doesn't have an "iThing" and she would pay 4-5 dollars to watch a movie from a tablet with her headphones.  She would not appreciate being called a sap.


----------



## Relique du Madde

Check out how many airlines have gone iPad (I'm linking the the press releases from each airline).

Alaska Air using iPads for flight manuals.
Delta Renting iPads as GO Media Bar initiative  <-- Note: This story was from may and nowhere on it does it even mention renting an Android Device.
Jetstar starts trial to use iPads for Entertainment
Iceland Express Airline offers iPad Rental

I've also seen some blog posts about British Airlines is making a deal to have iPads on their planes for first class and business class customers.  Nothing official has been release.


This is just what I found within the last half hour of searching.


So tell me, why isn't the fact that one company went Android rather then following the trend by going iPad a big deal?  It only takes one airline to convince others to consider the options outside of Apple to cause Android's influence to grow and expand in markets that are currently dominated by iPad.


----------



## Janx

catsclaw227 said:


> My mom doesn't have an "iThing" and she would pay 4-5 dollars to watch a movie from a tablet with her headphones.  She would not appreciate being called a sap.




Well, no offense to your mom, but I wouldn't pay $4-5 to rent a digitally delivered movie at the same price you could have rented physical media on better terms.

Let alone, if your mom can afford 1st class, she can afford her own doo-hickey.  Or if you were a better offspring, you'd buy her one so she doesn't have to touch the germ ridden slab they're going to hand her.

I'm not impressed by any of the things the airlines do to wallet rape you in the guise of convenience.

I don't think tablets are devices people should be or will be sharing, especially as everyone* will have one.
*everyone who matters, that is

For Rdm, I suspect that could be considered good news that Android has won a sale to the airlines.

However I am in the biased camp that it is stupid to bother deploying these gadgets in airplanes. And i will probably be proven wrong and the airline industry will be saved by the revenues generated by these things.  

I simply look at the practical fact that in the last flight I took, everybody in view of me had a device to watch videos, listen to music or fiddle with.  The demand for such devices is there, but the fact is the number of people who DON'T have their own doohickey is shrinking, such that the airlines spending energy on in-flight entertainment is going to increasingly wasteful.

Even today, a friend came into town, he who had mocked such smart phones and "all I need is something to make phone calls with" and he's sporting an Android and shooting videos and sending them back and forth, facebooking, etc.  It's like he can't live without the thing now.

It's kind of like computers were.  in the 1980's your parents had no clue about computers, let alone your grandparents.  30 years later, probably 25-50% of all grandparents are online.  Because in the 80's computers were just showing up at the office when they were fixing to retire.  The folks who weren't retiring spent 30 years with them, and now they KNOW about computers.

While the have nots won't go away, they don't tend to have money and thus aren't a target demographic.


----------



## catsclaw227

Janx said:


> Well, no offense to your mom, but I wouldn't pay $4-5 to rent a digitally delivered movie at the same price you could have rented physical media on better terms.
> 
> Let alone, if your mom can afford 1st class, she can afford her own doo-hickey.  Or if you were a better offspring, you'd buy her one so she doesn't have to touch the germ ridden slab they're going to hand her.



I am talking about when they bleed down to coach.  I wasn't talking about currently when they are offered in first class.

And... if i was "a better offspring"?  I'm a damn good son.  Your implied insult was out of line.

It sounds more to me like you have some serious germ concerns, you've mentioned it twice. I am sorry this is something that bothers you so much.  

[edit: not worth it...]



Janx said:


> I'm not impressed by any of the things the airlines do to wallet rape you in the guise of convenience.
> 
> I don't think tablets are devices people should be or will be sharing, especially as everyone* will have one.
> *everyone who matters, that is




Everyone that matters? A bushman of the kalahari doesn't matter in your grand design?  

Or what about a lower-class urban family or even a middle-class family who's parent has lost a job recently and don't think a tablet is as important as paying the cable bill.  These people sometimes fly because they have to for some reason or another.  Elderly people, or even people in their 50s-60s-70s, might not have tablets, and they fly fairly regularly.  In your eyes, do _their_ children suck because they didn't buy them a new tablet?

And when is it that you think tablets will have 100% saturation to the people you believe "matter"?



Janx said:


> I simply look at the practical fact that in the last flight I took, everybody in view of me had a device to watch videos, listen to music or fiddle with.  The demand for such devices is there, but the fact is the number of people who DON'T have their own doohickey is shrinking, such that the airlines spending energy on in-flight entertainment is going to increasingly wasteful.




In the past three weeks I have taken 2 round trip flights, one from home to Philadelphia on a short 1.5hr flight and getting up to walk to the restroom I saw that about 15% had something they were watching.  Of those, most were phone sized and insufficient (for most) to watch a movie on.  The rest were split into laptops and tablets. Have you ever used a laptop and had to get up to let someone out of the row for the restroom?  Laptops aren't ideal either.

The other flight was cross country to Los Angeles and the ratios were the same, except people were getting up and down a lot more often, and with a laptop, you would be inconvenienced even more.  And your battery would likely be dead too.



Janx said:


> Even today, a friend came into town, he who had mocked such smart phones and "all I need is something to make phone calls with" and he's sporting an Android and shooting videos and sending them back and forth, facebooking, etc.  It's like he can't live without the thing now.



And he watches full length movies on his android phone?  I have a Droid X, one of the largest smartphone screens and it sucks to watch movies on. I would rather wait to get home.  For a long flight, if I could rent a tablet with a nice menu of movies to watch or wireless movie access for $4-$5 I would.



Janx said:


> It's kind of like computers were.  in the 1980's your parents had no clue about computers, let alone your grandparents.  30 years later, probably 25-50% of all grandparents are online.  Because in the 80's computers were just showing up at the office when they were fixing to retire.  The folks who weren't retiring spent 30 years with them, and now they KNOW about computers.
> 
> While the have nots won't go away, they don't tend to have money and thus aren't a target demographic.



The grandparents may have internet at home, but they likely do not have tablets.


----------



## Janx

catsclaw227 said:


> And... if i was "a better offspring"?  I'm a damn good son.  Your implied insult was out of line.




Obviously, I've offended you.  I'm sorry.

I am not literally talking about you or your mom.

I am talking about rich people fly first class and they OWN smart devices right NOW.

I am not specifically a germ-ophobe.  I simply recognize that children are plague rats and airlines are the primary vector for germs to cross continents.

The spread of technology increases because the demographic ages.  Tomorow, as a grandparent you WILL own a tablet and use facebook.  You will refuse to use the new fangled injection chip that all the kids are doing these days.

As to the usability of smartphones to watch movies?  That depends on the user.  I watched Flight 666 on my iPhone.  The guy next to me watched someting with gangsters and naked women on his phone.  College kids too cheap to pay for cable have been pirating bad copies of shows and movies to watch in a tiny window on their PC for years.

As to who matters and who doesn't?  Bushmen don't buy BMW's, so they don't matter to a BMW salesman.  That doesn't mean they don't matter as human beings.   But they don't matter in the context of the topic.  And the topic is flying on airplanes and having the extra money to spend on renting a tablet to watch a movie.

Are there people interested in such?  Sure.  Are they a large enough market to justify putting tablets on planes?  I think that demographic will continue to shrink because the probability of them OWNING a tablet will increase.


----------



## Fast Learner

Relique du Madde said:


> So tell me, why isn't the fact that one company went Android rather then following the trend by going iPad a big deal?  It only takes one airline to convince others to consider the options outside of Apple to cause Android's influence to grow and expand in markets that are currently dominated by iPad.




Right, sorry, didn't mean it was _nothing_: in that context it's noteworthy and a win for Android. I just don't see it as "a *MAJOR* game changer", even in that market.


----------



## Relique du Madde

Fast Learner said:


> Right, sorry, didn't mean it was _nothing_: in that context it's noteworthy and a win for Android. I just don't see it as "a *MAJOR* game changer", even in that market.




Major Game changers CAN be about perception. 

The common perception between iPads and Android tablets have been:

iPAD = KING OF THE WORD.  ONE TRUE PAD.
Android = Why bother. 

Now it's not the case, which is why it's a major game changer.   With all things being equal or more favorable for Apple ONE corporation said, "There are other options in existence beyond Apple that will suit our needs" rather then automatically buying and iPad to do something EVEN if they didn't require one for the task they needed to accomplish.


----------



## Fast Learner

Perhaps, it's certainly possible. I don't see it as major, but maybe it's the start of something.


----------



## falcarrion

Relique du Madde said:


> Major Game changers CAN be about perception.
> 
> The common perception between iPads and Android tablets have been:
> 
> iPAD = KING OF THE WORD.  ONE TRUE PAD.
> Android = Why bother.
> 
> Now it's not the case, which is why it's a major game changer.   With all things being equal or more favorable for Apple ONE corporation said, "There are other options in existence beyond Apple that will suit our needs" rather then automatically buying and iPad to do something EVEN if they didn't require one for the task they needed to accomplish.



Now it's not the case, which is why it's a major game changer.   With all things being equal or more favorable for Apple ONE corporation said, "There are other options in existence beyond Apple that will suit our needs" rather then automatically buying and iPad to do something EVEN if they didn't require one for the task they needed to accomplish.[/QUOTE]

For Android this could be a major game changer for them. As it was for Apple when they first did it. Apples advantage was they came out with the first popular tablet. They where not the first tablet. But they are the ones who created a tablet that has really gone main stream. There tablet changed the computer market more than most people expected. Not to mention the number of companies that have come about because of it. If apple failed with there tablet, the odds are there wouldn't be android tablets at all. Tablets in general are the major game changer. We are seeing history in the making and us Tablet owners are part of that history. Android is as important to us as is Apple. It is the compatition between the two that will bring us greater tablets in the future.
Apple is king right now. But as history has shown us, the mighty can fall.
Those who say Apple is king and why bother with android are the blind fanboys.
The tablet you own today may not be the tablet you have tomarrow.
For the record I own an Ipad but I would never say why bother with an Android.
I say tell me about your android tablet. Show me what it can do. And I will do the same for you. By keeping an open mind I will be better informed then the blind fanboys who don't take the time to see what it out there.


----------



## Felon

Janx said:


> Well, no offense to your mom, but I wouldn't pay $4-5 to rent a digitally delivered movie at the same price you could have rented physical media on better terms.



Why would someone rent physical media that they'd have to return when they could save themselves the trip with digital rentals?

You speak of "better terms", but the only better term you're going to get is Redbox, which offer a limited selection. Plus, it's a crap shoot if any popular titles will be available at the particular Redbox you visit. Add that into that the aforementioned travel time, and I don't see this as being a hands-down superior alternative.


----------



## Felon

Anyone seen this article? Exclusive: Dell spurns U.S. in launch of Android tablet in China | Nanotech - The Circuits Blog - CNET News

The article refers to the Chinese consumer tech market as being more mature and savvy. When it comes to tablets at least, they do have a point. Joe Consumer knows the iPad, and considers everything else to be a faux knock-off. That landscape changed in the smartphone category, so here's hoping there's some smartening up here as well.

I wonder if that kind of exclusion will actually help pique some interest in their tablet in the states.


----------



## nedjer

Industry numbers say tablets go mass market when they hit $250-300 for something that works about as well as an original iPad.

In terms of company support, Intel have been talking up their support for Android big time of late.


----------



## IronWolf

nedjer said:


> Industry numbers say tablets go mass market when they hit $250-300 for something that works about as well as an original iPad.




I agree.  That has been the price point I have been wanting to see for awhile.  Though I will say I finally broke down and bought an iPad generation 1 when Verizon Wireless was trying to clear them out and have not regretted it.


----------



## Janx

Felon said:


> Why would someone rent physical media that they'd have to return when they could save themselves the trip with digital rentals?
> 
> You speak of "better terms", but the only better term you're going to get is Redbox, which offer a limited selection. Plus, it's a crap shoot if any popular titles will be available at the particular Redbox you visit. Add that into that the aforementioned travel time, and I don't see this as being a hands-down superior alternative.




better terms being, when I rent a movie, I fully expect to watch it right then.  If life intervenes partway through, a digital rental screws me in 24 hours.  Whereas the DVD gives me a week.

Furthermore, I object to the fact that a digital rental costs the same as a physicial rental.  I expect a reduction in cost by removing the physical medium expense.

Plus, with physical media, you probably get the extras. No dice on the digital version.

I use netflix.  $10 and I can churn 8 disks a month which beats the rental cost at a normal rental place or for digital.  Prior to that, I rented movies maybe twice a year.

And to reroute this back to tablets, I can watch the instant stuff on my iPad.


----------



## catsclaw227

Janx said:


> better terms being, when I rent a movie, I fully expect to watch it right then.  If life intervenes partway through, a digital rental screws me in 24 hours.  Whereas the DVD gives me a week.
> 
> Furthermore, I object to the fact that a digital rental costs the same as a physicial rental.  I expect a reduction in cost by removing the physical medium expense.
> 
> Plus, with physical media, you probably get the extras. No dice on the digital version.
> 
> I use netflix.  $10 and I can churn 8 disks a month which beats the rental cost at a normal rental place or for digital.  Prior to that, I rented movies maybe twice a year.
> 
> And to reroute this back to tablets, I can watch the instant stuff on my iPad.



I was talking about a person on an airplane renting a tablet to watch an in-flight movie from a list of available titles.  Your comment about the inconvenience of renting has nothing to do with this situation.  

I was responding to this statement:



			
				Janx said:
			
		

> Well, no offense to your mom, but I wouldn't pay $4-5 to rent a digitally delivered movie at the same price you could have rented physical media on better terms.




There's no disc, no returning a physical item, and since you are on a plane (say for 4 hours) and you don't want to watch on your phone, it is actually more convenient.  

As you said, when you rent a movie, you expect to watch it then and there.  The same for renting a tablet in-flight.

FYI, my $4-$5 figure was for use of the tablet (which would have movies installed or available via wireless on the place from network storage).


----------



## Relique du Madde

Interesting. 


There was just a stealth Android Honeycomb Market update for my Xoom Wifi.  I now have access to "Google Movies."  Or what ever Google calls the movie rental service.  Also Google Videos app updated (funny... I never knew I had that app).  The app lets me rent movies as well as watch the movies I'm able to view.

I'm asking people I know with the Asus Transformer to see if they also got the Movies update. 

Current offerings*^:
Action/Adventure: 100
Animation: 65
Comedy: 600
Drama: 100
Documentary/Biography: 304
Family: 59
Horror 308

*I noticed some movies listed in multiple categories.
^ Some movies were oddly placed (CGI animation not placed in animation).

Sadly there seems to be no rhyme or reason to how the movies are displayed.


----------



## Janx

catsclaw227 said:


> I was talking about a person on an airplane renting a tablet to watch an in-flight movie from a list of available titles.  Your comment about the inconvenience of renting has nothing to do with this situation.




I was not the one saying renting was inconvenient.  I found it trivial to visit the Hollywood Video that was next to the grocery store that I was next to every other day or so.  I simply chose not to enter.  I argue that digital rentals SHOULD be CHEAPER.

To sum up, I think paying $4-5 is too much to rent a movie.

I think paying $10 is too much to watch a movie at the theatre.

Just as I think that cheaper to produce CDs should have cost less than cassettes, but the industry kept the prices high so they could get a better margin.

Just as I think SMS cost schedule is a wallet rape scheme by the telcos to use what is significantly less drain on their network than the typical voice call.  Let alone that someone is attacking your bank account with every text they SEND to you.

I also think tethering fees are another form of wallet rape as technically, you paid for the data plan, so whether you watch porn on your phone or on your laptop via tethering is the same quantity of bytes transferred across their network.

As such, I don't use SMS (I made AT&T block them arriving).  I don't generally rent videos (barring Netflix which is basically $10 for 8 discs).  And I recommend others do the same.  

Because these companies charge what the Market Will Bear, so the Market needs to say No to force a lower price.

Does my reasoning make sense?  Probably not.  If I think something is wallet rape or stupid, I am not obligated to participate.  Since this is a forum, it is the forum for voicing why I think something is wallet rape or stupid.  If you sit down on the plane next to me and pay for your tablet movie, I should keep my mouth shut because that's polite.

Incidentally, you probably own a tablet.  Why wouldn't you use yours?  And in 2 years time, why wouldn't you give your mom your old tablet when you replace it with a new model?*  I'm not talking literally here, maybe your wife called dibs on it.  But the principal with smartphones and tablets is, this stuff is moving in and the % of Haves will grow rapidly.  Many of the Have Nots will settle for late model stuff.


----------



## Janx

falcarrion said:


> For Android this could be a major game changer for them. As it was for Apple when they first did it. Apples advantage was they came out with the first popular tablet. They where not the first tablet. But they are the ones who created a tablet that has really gone main stream. There tablet changed the computer market more than most people expected. Not to mention the number of companies that have come about because of it. If apple failed with there tablet, the odds are there wouldn't be android tablets at all. Tablets in general are the major game changer. We are seeing history in the making and us Tablet owners are part of that history. Android is as important to us as is Apple. It is the compatition between the two that will bring us greater tablets in the future.




There's some important nuggets here.

While the multi-touch technology opened up some UI possibilities, consider that on a tablet sized screen, you need "stretching" less than on an iPhone.

My point being, a tablet with a UI like iOS could have been done in 1997 with comparable tech like my Compaq PC Companion running Windows CE.  Well, not literally, but close enough.

It ain't that hard to code the home screen of iOS.  Or the basic UI effects. barring the multi-touch stuff (which stretching is handy and cool).

but MS had their head up their arse.  From my PC Companion to the WinCE 5/6 that was running on the Tilt we owned for a month, MS clung to the Windows metaphor.  A box, with a min/max/close button, Start button/task bar, and each application's MenuBar.

On a PC, I love these things.  On a small screen like a smart phone or tablet.  These things take up serious real estate.

Apple wasn't the only or first to trim the fat.  Small screens need less stuff, but they need a consistent UI look.  Apple is really good at that stuff.  Ultimately, thats why they're on top right now.

Even now, Windows8 is being previewed.  The first videos of it, make it look like Windows Mobile 7 on your PC.  There's no "windows" anymore, unless you run a legacy app.  The mouse is a "secondary" interface, based on a comment heard in the video.  Why?  Because MS is assuming that the next gen PC will be a touch screen computer, not a traditional screen.  

And with the way MS works, manufacturers will conform to MS's hardware requirements on all new PCs certified to run Windows8.

The gist is, the big mobile OS brands have been refining how a touch screen interface should work (where WinCE failed) and now MS is taking that concept to the big PC OS.  You can expect then that the next desktop PCs and laptops (and even some tablet-like PCs) will look and act like tablets.  Rather than the current fair of "it's Windows.  On a very flat computer running very slowly"

I can already by a cover for my ipad with a bluetooth keyboard.  Kind of like making it a laptop.  And Dell and HP have already done flavors of laptops with twisty screens, so they flip into a fat touch screen.  So a PC/Mac that is as thin as a Macbook Air with a twisty screen and Win8 or comparable touchscreen intended UI will be the next competition for tablets.


----------



## catsclaw227

Janx said:


> I was not the one saying renting was inconvenient.  I found it trivial to visit the Hollywood Video that was next to the grocery store that I was next to every other day or so.  I simply chose not to enter.  I argue that digital rentals SHOULD be CHEAPER.



My point was that, if you are on a plane, it's more convenient to rent a tablet and watch from a selection of movies than to plan on bringing a physical media rental along with you.  

We were talking about my mom on a plane and you said:



			
				Janx said:
			
		

> Well, no offense to your mom, but I wouldn't pay $4-5 to rent a digitally delivered movie at the same price you could have rented physical media on better terms.




... which didn't seem to make sense in light of the fact that she was cruising at altitude.




Janx said:


> To sum up, I think paying $4-5 is too much to rent a movie.
> 
> I think paying $10 is too much to watch a movie at the theatre.
> 
> Just as I think that cheaper to produce CDs should have cost less than cassettes, but the industry kept the prices high so they could get a better margin.[/janx]
> Not that I disagree, but figuring in inflation, I think these items are actually cheaper than they were in the past.
> 
> 
> 
> Janx said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just as I think SMS cost schedule is a wallet rape scheme by the telcos to use what is significantly less drain on their network than the typical voice call.  Let alone that someone is attacking your bank account with every text they SEND to you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't know, I have an unlimited data and text plan.  Pretty standard when your employer is paying for it, but if a regular consumer has a smartphone, why wouldn't they have a data plan?  And aren't most major carriers giving free sms with their data plans?
> 
> 
> 
> Janx said:
> 
> 
> 
> I also think tethering fees are another form of wallet rape as technically, you paid for the data plan, so whether you watch porn on your phone or on your laptop via tethering is the same quantity of bytes transferred across their network.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree... I despise the fact that, for me to use my phone as a mobile hotspot, I have to pay an extra $20/month.  That is wallet rape.
> 
> 
> 
> Janx said:
> 
> 
> 
> Incidentally, you probably own a tablet.  Why wouldn't you use yours?  And in 2 years time, why wouldn't you give your mom your old tablet when you replace it with a new model?*  I'm not talking literally here, maybe your wife called dibs on it.  But the principal with smartphones and tablets is, this stuff is moving in and the % of Haves will grow rapidly.  Many of the Have Nots will settle for late model stuff.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I actually don't own one yet, and I am normally an early adopter.  I had an iPhone and I started disliking it after a while over my "regular cell phone" because of a few minor quibbles.  email was tougher, I misspelled constantly, and web browsing was a fight with fat-fingers on sensitive touch screens.
> 
> But then dropped AT&T because it sucks where I live and went back to Verizon. No iPhone at the time, so I got an android phone.  I prefer the OS and generally "how things work", so I am waiting on the tablet for about six more months.  By then the android tablets will be more stable, the apps available will be much better and I can get the tablet in an OS I prefer.
> 
> I have no problem waiting.  My PC, laptop and Droid X phone keep me plenty busy in the meantime.
Click to expand...


----------



## Janx

catsclaw227 said:


> As you said, when you rent a movie, you expect to watch it then and there. The same for renting a tablet in-flight.




I probably should have said "hope" to watch it then and there.

I get interrupted a lot.  I don't watch TV live anymore.  I doubt I'd ever be able to catch a show if I didn't have a DVR.

And I can't count how many times I start a movie, and something comes up and I got to finish it the next day or so.

Granted, a plane is a box that your stuck in.  But then I bring my own entertainment like a book, an ipad, iPhone, PSP with games or movies on it.  Most people do.  I don't think I'd want to get stuck paying for hoping that their movies the airline has on tablet don't suck like the ones they show on the overhead screen.


----------



## Janx

catsclaw227 said:


> My point was that, if you are on a plane, it's more convenient to rent a tablet and watch from a selection of movies than to plan on bringing a physical media rental along with you.
> 
> We were talking about my mom on a plane and you said:




I see where I didn't make sense.

And for the record, I was talking about people I don't know in the abstractest sense.  You were talking about yer mom.. 

$4-5 bucks is what itunes, xbox live/zune, and PSN charge for digital rentals.  I think that price is BS for a 24 hour artificially constrained and having no physical media costs compared to what Block Buster charges.

The airplane part wasn't part of my logic.

Though i hate paying for things on airplanes.  I also hate the stupid trolly runs they make up and down the plane to hand out food and stuff.

my anti-airplane rental logic is founded on the concept that they are paying money for a technology that will increasingly already be in the hands of their target market.  I don't know what the growth rate is, but each person who owns a tablet will bring it on a trip, and be unlikely to rent one from the airline.

I already see that folks doing business travel, are more inclined to just bring a tablet, than a full laptop (I bring both).  It's pretty much impossible to work on a laptop on a full plane, so the tablet is what gets played with.


----------



## Janx

snippet about CD prices vs. tapes:


catsclaw227 said:


> Not that I disagree, but figuring in inflation, I think these items are actually cheaper than they were in the past.




there'd been a report on the topic that I'd read articles about.  When CDs first hit the market, prices were higher.  The industry claimed it was because of initial conversion costs for production and that it would drop.  Because consumers kept buying, when costs actually did drop, prices did not actually follow.  What's probably changed the game now, is iTunes $1 songs or full album for $10.  That starts forcing CD makers to drop prices, since nobody's gonna pay $15-20 for an album they can get for $10.

Excepting for that I like physical media and mp3 format for all my devices, rather than iTunes format...



catsclaw227 said:


> I wouldn't know, I have an unlimited data and text plan.  Pretty standard when your employer is paying for it, but if a regular consumer has a smartphone, why wouldn't they have a data plan?  And aren't most major carriers giving free sms with their data plans?





AT&T most certainly does not bundle SMS with Dataplan.  at least not in the family plans.

Dataplan is $30/month for unlimited (now unavailable for new subs).  SMS is like $15/month for 1500 texts.  $30 for unlimited.  Very seperate.

Despite the fact that SMS is effectively using the same hardware bits and network bits as your dataplan. (more wallet rape)

Sprint is the only vendor I know who has an everything unlimited plan.

There may be some special plans with it all bundled, but in plain english, they just charge you a crapton of money for all the unlimited in each category.

As for coporate phone plans, that too depends on your company.  My company has a plan with Verizon.  It feels like a family plan with a shared # of minutes and 200 texts.  We go over minutes limit a lot (something's not right with that).  Its free to me, in the sense that my company will pay for the ammo I need to kill a problem.  But it's costing my company, because for some reason, we don't have a large enough plan.  Heck, we had to add "Friends and Family" to the plan (didn't come with it already) so we could add some concall #s and thus save some minutes.

We've segued into phones too much.  If nothing else, the relevance may be that tablets have complications due to DataPlan pricing and carrier availability as well.

Here in Houston, my AT&T phones are just as good as Verizon.  Out on the east coast, all I hear is complaining about AT&T. But I've had no trouble when I've been out that way.  I suspect it is cell network density vs. population density.  Houston is 5 million people sprawled out over 4 counties or so, so the carriers have saturated the area with towers.  NYC is like 5 million people packed into 4 blocks with 1 cell tower.


----------



## Fast Learner

(Not related to the topic but to wording: I'd like to request that y'all stop using the word "rape", even with the "wallet" qualifier. First, the word has some serious power that shouldn't be watered down like this, in my opinion, and second, in every example so far you had a choice about paying, so it sure as hell wasn't rape.)


----------



## catsclaw227

Janx said:


> As for coporate phone plans, that too depends on your company.  My company has a plan with Verizon.  It feels like a family plan with a shared # of minutes and 200 texts.  We go over minutes limit a lot (something's not right with that).  Its free to me, in the sense that my company will pay for the ammo I need to kill a problem.  But it's costing my company, because for some reason, we don't have a large enough plan.  Heck, we had to add "Friends and Family" to the plan (didn't come with it already) so we could add some concall #s and thus save some minutes.



For some reason I assumed that calling plans are the same nationwide, but I am starting to wonder...  I have a Verizon family plan with two phones and 400 minutes of calling.  My line is primary and my wife's line is secondary and costs only $9.99 for the phone line.  The plan has unlimited text and weekend calls, as well as unlimited calling within Verizon network (so I can call my family in CA, both at home and on cell, for free).  There are two data plans though, one for each phone - which I feel is double-dipping and I really dislike the practice - but I guess that is standard across the industry. 

So basically, we never use all our minutes. My family is free, my wife calls her mom in Russia using skype on the phone and that's free (which, with Verizon and Android, you can use the wireless network and 3G, on my iPhone with AT&T you had to use the 3G network), so we're good on minutes.  The plan itself with unlimited text and calling for two lines comes out to like $79 or two phones.  It's the two data plans that suck.  My boss pays for my phone and the data plan, and we pay for my wife's $9.99 and her data plan.



Janx said:


> Here in Houston, my AT&T phones are just as good as Verizon.  Out on the east coast, all I hear is complaining about AT&T. But I've had no trouble when I've been out that way.  I suspect it is cell network density vs. population density.  Houston is 5 million people sprawled out over 4 counties or so, so the carriers have saturated the area with towers.  NYC is like 5 million people packed into 4 blocks with 1 cell tower.



Yes.... even here in Cary (Raleigh/Durham region), I live near a bunch of big corporate campuses like NetApp, Cisco, AT&T, BofA, the EPA, and major biotech and pharma firms.  So in our area, you have a lot of techies and lots of phones and not enough cell towers to support them all.   I dumped AT&T after my contract ended and went back to Verizon who I had been with for 7 years prior, when I lived in SoCal.


----------



## MarauderX

falcarrion said:


> At CTIA Samsung showed mockups of the new Galaxy tab 8.9 and 10.1.
> Pricing is competitive of the Ipads. And they are thinner then the Ipad 2.




Anyone getting the HP when it appears in July?  It is looking like my top choice at the moment.


----------



## Janx

Fast Learner said:


> (Not related to the topic but to wording: I'd like to request that y'all stop using the word "rape", even with the "wallet" qualifier. First, the word has some serious power that shouldn't be watered down like this, in my opinion, and second, in every example so far you had a choice about paying, so it sure as hell wasn't rape.)




This is a reasonable and politely worded request.

However, you are asking me to never use a word again, infringing on my right to free speech and expression.

I have two proposals for you, if you wish me to comply. One, volunteer to never use a phrase from your vocablulary (and you can't choose a word you don't use as thats not an inconvenience).  

Or, and this is a better one.  Don't bring me problems, bring me solutions.  Bring me a a better phrase that expresses the severe distaste we all have for when companies try to charge exhorbitant rates for trivial things.

It must be just as catchy, because when I use the phrase I use, other people know exactly what I mean, and they then use it as well.

~ Message to Janx: stop being an idiot. He made a polite and considered request and here you are breaking the Wheaton Rule in about as egregious way as is possible. Continuing in this manner is likely to result in a vacation from the boards. You've been here since 2002, you should know better. Plane Sailing, ENworld Admin ~


----------



## Fast Learner

Janx said:


> However, you are asking me...




No, there's no need for all of that nonsense. I have two adult proposals for you: politely choose to not use the term in this context because you know I find it offensive or continue to use it as you see fit. It's all up to you.


----------



## IronWolf

Janx said:


> However, you are asking me to never use a word again, infringing on my right to free speech and expression.




Message boards are more like going to someone's house. If the owner of the house does not like certain behavior or has rules against it, then they are allowed to enforce those without violating anyone's free speech or expression.  I believe the phrase some are finding offensive would fall under the Grandma Rules here.

He was just politely asking for you to avoid the use of that phrase here on these forums where a certain decorum is expected. He was not asking you to ban it from your vocabulary - just not use it here.




			
				Janx said:
			
		

> Or, and this is a better one.  Don't bring me problems, bring me solutions.  Bring me a a better phrase that expresses the severe distaste we all have for when companies try to charge exhorbitant rates for trivial things.




overpriced, ridiculously expensive, overcharging, no value for the money spent, etc would all be acceptable alternatives and still convey your point.


----------



## falcarrion

MarauderX said:


> Anyone getting the HP when it appears in July?  It is looking like my top choice at the moment.




Not me I already have an ipad tablet. but don't let that stop you from coming here and discussing tablets. What do you like about the HP?


----------



## Fast Learner

HP's WebOS user interface looks pretty slick, and since its apps are HTML5 and Javascript at heart, it should be comparatively easy to make them. Not saying it'll be a big success, but I'm definitely intrigued.


----------



## MarauderX

Fast Learner said:


> HP's WebOS user interface looks pretty slick, and since its apps are HTML5 and Javascript at heart, it should be comparatively easy to make them. Not saying it'll be a big success, but I'm definitely intrigued.




Yes, it should be much easier to make the apps, but mostly I won't be since there is often no need since a good array of websites suite my needs just as well.  
Another reason is Flash, as has been said many times before.  Oh, and I'll be able to actually produce documents that I can share a lot more easily.  A test run with both of a few MS office products and google docs is also a good reason I'm likely sold on it vs an iPad.


----------



## Fast Learner

MarauderX said:


> Yes, it should be much easier to make the apps, but mostly I won't be since there is often no need since a good array of websites suite my needs just as well.



As long as you're online and willing to burn through the data.  



> Another reason is Flash, as has been said many times before.



Yeah, though I'll believe that when I see it. I mean, the advance of computing power means that there will certainly be tablets that can run Flash stuff as smoothly as a full-sized computer, but when? This thing has similar power as the Xoom, which still struggles with most Flash.



> Oh, and I'll be able to actually produce documents that I can share a lot more easily.  A test run with both of a few MS office products and google docs is also a good reason I'm likely sold on it vs an iPad.



No, you're thinking of something else. HP produced one Windows tablet which was such a piece of junk that they only made 5,000 of them; that's long gone.

HP's tablets moving forward, including this one, run WebOS, the renamed and updated Palm OS. No Microsoft Office here.


----------



## falcarrion

I have an Android question? Can you run silverlight? such as the character builder on the WOTC website?


----------



## MarauderX

Fast Learner said:


> No, you're thinking of something else. HP produced one Windows tablet which was such a piece of junk that they only made 5,000 of them; that's long gone.
> 
> HP's tablets moving forward, including this one, run WebOS, the renamed and updated Palm OS. No Microsoft Office here.



No, I'm not talking about the Slate.  I've seen the demoes in person and the new one looks like I will be making documents that can be transferred, which is a real hardship for the iPad.  I suppose we will see everything it can and can't do soon.


----------



## IronWolf

falcarrion said:


> I have an Android question? Can you run silverlight? such as the character builder on the WOTC website?




I think the moonlight devs might be working on something or have something? I don't have an Android tablet though, so I don't keep up with that platform well.


----------



## Alan Shutko

There's certainly no official Silverlight runtime for Android at the moment.

As I understand it, Moonlight doesn't work with the character builder, so an Android port of Moonlight wouldn't help.


----------



## falcarrion

so no tablet right now can just log into wotc website and run character builder. I guess that only leaves logging into a computer with a tablet to run it.
Now what I have been able to find out about silverlight that will change with silverlight 5. But the question remains will Wotc upgrade to Silverlight 5 or ignore us tablet users?


----------



## falcarrion

Adobe adds support for ios development into flash builder.
Adobe adds support for iOS development into Flash Builder, Flex | TUAW - The Unofficial Apple Weblog


----------



## Relique du Madde

That's not actually new news considering that the whole Adobe vs Apple feud was because Adobe was making a as3 to Objective C- converter for FlashBuilder 5 and Apple got pissed.  

Adobe has really been coming up with ways to convert as3 files to pretty much everything.


----------



## Alan Shutko

I want them to convert as3 to bacon.


----------



## falcarrion

Alan Shutko said:


> I want them to convert as3 to bacon.




Bacon?


----------



## Relique du Madde

falcarrion said:


> Bacon?




By definition AS3 is already bacon, just not sliced.  ;D

That is assuming he isn't talking about that *Ba*sic to *C* c*on*verter... cause then it would be *.As* BaCon.


----------



## Relique du Madde

/Facepalm

I've been reading that Motorola has released the Honeycomb 3.1 update that includes microSD support, for European customers.

Motorola...  How I loath you.


----------



## falcarrion

hopefullyy it will happen soon in the USA.


----------



## Plane Sailing

Relique du Madde said:


> That's not actually new news considering that the whole Adobe vs Apple feud was because Adobe was making a as3 to Objective C- converter for FlashBuilder 5 and Apple got pissed.
> 
> Adobe has really been coming up with ways to convert as3 files to pretty much everything.




Not the whole story though, right?

Apple fired the first shot by banning Flash from the iOS devices.

So Adobe decides to build a cross-converter to allow flash apps to be turned into iOS apps.

So Apple changes the licensing to outlaw that (and as a byproduct prevents people using a number of gaming libraries and such)

I've not followed much what happened after that point though.

Cheers


----------



## Relique du Madde

Plane Sailing said:


> Not the whole story though, right?
> 
> <SNIP>
> 
> I've not followed much what happened after that point though.




I heard some rumors that there was more to the feud then it starting with the iOS Flash ban.

One (which I think was somewhat credible) was that Apple asked Adobe to optimized flash work on lower memory devices and received a reply that was essentially "It already does, why don't you make better hardware."  Of course, if that did happen we would never know since Apple and Adobe are less likely to tweet out their insults to each other like Nokia and Google have in the past.

But yeah, its hard to keep up with all the apple and adobe bickering considering how they pretty much are frienimys.


----------



## Plane Sailing

Now you mention it I seem to recall that Apple have complained to Adobe about flash performance and stability on MacOS for quite some while, and Adobe have tended to say  "Whatever". Of course, going way, way back it was Aldus Pagemaker that originally 'made' the Mac platform in days gone by, long taken over by Adobe, yet Adobe in recent years stopped making MacOS its primary development platform for Photoshop and its other products, and this can't have sat well with Apple.

Frenemies indeed!


----------



## Janx

Relique du Madde said:


> I heard some rumors that there was more to the feud then it starting with the iOS Flash ban.
> 
> One (which I think was somewhat credible) was that Apple asked Adobe to optimized flash work on lower memory devices and received a reply that was essentially "It already does, why don't you make better hardware."  Of course, if that did happen we would never know since Apple and Adobe are less likely to tweet out their insults to each other like Nokia and Google have in the past.
> 
> But yeah, its hard to keep up with all the apple and adobe bickering considering how they pretty much are frienimys.




according to legend, the feud goes way back, to PostScript fonts.  Can't find the article but I vaguely recall hearing about it back in the day.  There's a lot of technological back and forth between those two.

In the recent era, Adobe and Flash wasn't the only Apple argument.  Apple also got cranky with Google, and that caused Eric Schmidt to leave Apple's board (CEO of Google, I remember him from his Novell days).  That little tiff caused more delays in approvals for Google apps, and is probably the reason the map app has NEVER really been updated on the iThing.


----------



## Banshee16

Relique du Madde said:


> /Facepalm
> 
> I've been reading that Motorola has released the Honeycomb 3.1 update that includes microSD support, for European customers.
> 
> Motorola...  How I loath you.




Well, fair is fair...European and Canadian Xoom owners have been waiting since what...early May?  For 3.1....

It's the main reason I didn't end up getting a Xoom.  It became evident they didn't really care about the Canadian market.  No sense giving them cash.

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16

MarauderX said:


> Anyone getting the HP when it appears in July?  It is looking like my top choice at the moment.




I'll be taking a look at it.

I thought I was getting the Xoom, but given my habitation of Canada, and the fact that it seems like any updates will be way after updates done in the U.S., at this point, I'm considering the HP tablet, or maybe the ASUS EEE Pad Transformer or Toshiba Thrive.  The Thrive is supposedly the heaviest of the bunch.  However.....full and micro USB, full size HDMI, full size SD Card, a swappable battery and an IPS screen makes up for a lot of device size concerns.  1.6 lbs really isn't that heavy.  Battery life of 7 hours doesn't sound like the best though.

I'm not 100% sure if I like the feel of the EEE Pad Transformer.

I'm not as familiar with WebOS, but it definitely looks like a solid OS.

Banshee


----------



## Relique du Madde

Banshee16 said:


> Well, fair is fair...European and Canadian Xoom owners have been waiting since what...early May?  For 3.1....
> 
> It's the main reason I didn't end up getting a Xoom.  It became evident they didn't really care about the Canadian market.  No sense giving them cash.
> 
> Banshee




Yeah but the American Xoom owners who received their 3.1 update last month do not have microsd. 

I'm certain Motorola most likely wrote off the Xoom Gen 1 and didn't tell anyone about it since they already are advertising for Xoom 2.  

How do I know?  Look at the location of the power button and camera that "Motorola tablet," that's not where it would be on a Gen 1 Xoom.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_INWezbkBJ8]YouTube - ‪Tablets Powered by Verizon‬‏[/ame]


----------



## Fast Learner

Lots of Apple vs Adobe stuff. Prior to the Flash stuff there was a long-running issue with Adobe never fully porting its apps over to the Cocoa framework which meant they wouldn't run in 64-bit mode, eventually making them inferior to the versions running on Windows, especially when dealing with large files.

As to Aldus, while there's no doubt that Pagemaker was instrumental in the Mac's success, the Mac was essential to Aldus': both benefitted greatly.


----------



## Banshee16

Relique du Madde said:


> Yeah but the American Xoom owners who received their 3.1 update last month do not have microsd.
> 
> I'm certain Motorola most likely wrote off the Xoom Gen 1 and didn't tell anyone about it since they already are advertising for Xoom 2.
> 
> How do I know?  Look at the location of the power button and camera that "Motorola tablet," that's not where it would be on a Gen 1 Xoom.
> 
> YouTube - &[URL=http://www.enworld.org/forum/misc.php?do=dbtech_usertag_hash&hash=x202a]#x202aTablets Powered by Verizon&#x202c‏[/url]




I've seen that commercial though, and there's lots of debate as to whether that's for a Xoom 2 or a Xoom 2 slightly updated for Verizon 4G?  There was the issue where it came out for one network, people payed a premium to have it upgradeable to 4G, and have waited since March, and now it's being announced for another carrier, with 4G, and all the people waiting for the upgrade are feeling like they've been taken advantage of.

Seeing the frustration of the Xoom owners online is a big reason I've held back...because otherwise, the hardware does seem pretty nice.  Feels more solid than the iPad 2.

I've heard that Honeycomb apps are starting to fill in the marketplace a bit also.

IMO, it would be a PR disaster for them to start selling an actual Xoom 2 when the Xoom 1 customers are still waiting for promised functionality.

I definitely understand the American customers not having the micro SD.  But they've at least had 3.1, whereas customers outside of the U.S. don't even have that.  Plus, Google Movies and a bunch of other services are also disabled.

I understand the CRTC's goal of protecting local production of programming etc.  Due to the fact we're 10% of the size of the U.S., if we didn't have any protection, we could say goodbye to any kind of Canadian production....but it's still annoying, because it also allows us to be gouged, and for the "old guard" to cripple innovators like Netflix when they try to come up here.

What's suspicious about the whole thing with Xoom updates, however, is why companies like ASUS can simultaneously update all their customers, worldwide, in one shot, whereas Motorola has to wait months to handle customers outside of the U.S.

Banshee


----------



## falcarrion

Banshee16 said:


> Seeing the frustration of the Xoom owners online is a big reason I've held back...because otherwise, the hardware does seem pretty nice.  Feels more solid than the iPad 2.





In my experiance I found the Ipad and Ipad 2 to be very solid.  I haven't had any problems. I curious why you feel it feels more solid then the Ipad2. 
If it is a preference for Android over iOS I can understand that. Some either love it or hate it. And nothing you can say will change that for some people. I have been extremely happy with the Ipads. It seems that there are some great Android tablets coming out too. Samsung, Toshiba and others. I'm very causious when reading reports on some of the websites. Some sites can be very bias one way or the other. I'm in no way saying anything you said is a slam in any way. I just want to know why you feel that way.


----------



## Banshee16

falcarrion said:


> In my experiance I found the Ipad and Ipad 2 to be very solid.  I haven't had any problems. I curious why you feel it feels more solid then the Ipad2.
> If it is a preference for Android over iOS I can understand that. Some either love it or hate it. And nothing you can say will change that for some people. I have been extremely happy with the Ipads. It seems that there are some great Android tablets coming out too. Samsung, Toshiba and others. I'm very causious when reading reports on some of the websites. Some sites can be very bias one way or the other. I'm in no way saying anything you said is a slam in any way. I just want to know why you feel that way.




There is a factor of personal preference. I have an iPhone 4, and I think, once my contract has expired, I'll just convert it to an iPod, and get a different phone.  I'm not a big fan of the Apple walled garden.  This was my first Apple product since the late 80's, and I can't say I'm any more a fan now than I was then.  Personal preference.

As to weight and build....I know it sounds irrational, but something with a bit of heft to it just feels more solid to me.  I know it's not rational, and probably not even correct....but it's my gut that gives me that feeling. Know what I mean?  I think the Galaxy Tab 10.1 could be interesting too....but, aside from the lack of port for expandable memory, and my concerns about Samsung updating software, there's also the simple fact that it's even thinner/lighter than the iPad 2, and it just makes me wonder how solid it is, on that gut level.

Again, I'm not saying my feelings are right.  My two business partners have iPad 2's....and they both love them.  I've used theirs, and they *are* cool devices....just not for me...they feel so light......and I remember my partner squawking at me, when we went to a meeting, and he put his iPad 2 down on the conference room desk on a pad of paper, and, without thinking, I didn't even notice, and put my 17" laptop down on top of his iPad 2, and then put my computer bag on top of that while I mucked around looking for power cables.  Thankfully it wasn't damaged...but I can be rough with my stuff, and if something is too light, I'm the kind of person who's more liable to do something stupid like put it where it'll get damaged.  If it's got more heft to it, I tend to be more aware, and more careful.

Of course, the idea is that if I get a tablet, I'm not going to be carting this laptop around to client offices for presentations.

I think, just given how I feel about the battery on the iPhone 4, that I might feel most comfortable with the Toshiba Thrive tablet, where I can replace the battery without having to send it back to the manufacturer.  Again, call me irrational, but I look at that little battery icon on the iPhone 4, and watch the battery drain down in percentage every minute or so, and that just aggravates me.  I'm not saying it's rational.....just it's something that bugs me.

But I'm not making any choices until I actually see these devices.  I'm not big on preordering.

One of the things I like about Android tablets is the USB host connectivity.  Sometimes I'm doing photography at client prems, and one of the common errors I have is focus issues that I don't pick up on until I get back to the office and offload the images from the camera onto a larger screen....then I have to drive back out to replace the photos.  With a tablet, I could see hooking the tablet to the camera, checking the photos right there, and correcting any problems all in one shot.

Banshee


----------



## Relique du Madde

Banshee16 said:


> IMO, it would be a PR disaster for them to start selling an actual Xoom 2 when the Xoom 1 customers are still waiting for promised functionality.
> 
> I definitely understand the American customers not having the micro SD.  But they've at least had 3.1, whereas customers outside of the U.S. don't even have that.  Plus, Google Movies and a bunch of other services are also disabled.



Xoom 1 HAS been a pr disaster. 

Xoom Wifi had it for about a week to two weeks.  I suspect that google and the carriers decided to give it to people with 3g/4g first because "You'll get money."  Though, what's weird is that I sware I heard hat you need to connect to wifi to actually download (like google music beta) so giving it to carriers first makes no sense.



> What's suspicious about the whole thing with Xoom updates, however, is why companies like ASUS can simultaneously update all their customers, worldwide, in one shot, whereas Motorola has to wait months to handle customers outside of the U.S.
> 
> Banshee



That's actually been my biggest complaint about Motorola during the last several months.   It's almost as is Sam Sung handed them the "Worst Android Device support" ball and they decided to keep it in a golden box.


----------



## falcarrion

Banshee16 said:


> There is a factor of personal preference. I have an iPhone 4, and I think, once my contract has expired, I'll just convert it to an iPod, and get a different phone.  I'm not a big fan of the Apple walled garden.  This was my first Apple product since the late 80's, and I can't say I'm any more a fan now than I was then.  Personal preference.
> 
> As to weight and build....I know it sounds irrational, but something with a bit of heft to it just feels more solid to me.  I know it's not rational, and probably not even correct....but it's my gut that gives me that feeling. Know what I mean?  I think the Galaxy Tab 10.1 could be interesting too....but, aside from the lack of port for expandable memory, and my concerns about Samsung updating software, there's also the simple fact that it's even thinner/lighter than the iPad 2, and it just makes me wonder how solid it is, on that gut level.
> 
> Again, I'm not saying my feelings are right.  My two business partners have iPad 2's....and they both love them.  I've used theirs, and they *are* cool devices....just not for me...they feel so light......and I remember my partner squawking at me, when we went to a meeting, and he put his iPad 2 down on the conference room desk on a pad of paper, and, without thinking, I didn't even notice, and put my 17" laptop down on top of his iPad 2, and then put my computer bag on top of that while I mucked around looking for power cables.  Thankfully it wasn't damaged...but I can be rough with my stuff, and if something is too light, I'm the kind of person who's more liable to do something stupid like put it where it'll get damaged.  If it's got more heft to it, I tend to be more aware, and more careful.
> 
> Of course, the idea is that if I get a tablet, I'm not going to be carting this laptop around to client offices for presentations.
> 
> I think, just given how I feel about the battery on the iPhone 4, that I might feel most comfortable with the Toshiba Thrive tablet, where I can replace the battery without having to send it back to the manufacturer.  Again, call me irrational, but I look at that little battery icon on the iPhone 4, and watch the battery drain down in percentage every minute or so, and that just aggravates me.  I'm not saying it's rational.....just it's something that bugs me.
> 
> But I'm not making any choices until I actually see these devices.  I'm not big on preordering.
> 
> One of the things I like about Android tablets is the USB host connectivity.  Sometimes I'm doing photography at client prems, and one of the common errors I have is focus issues that I don't pick up on until I get back to the office and offload the images from the camera onto a larger screen....then I have to drive back out to replace the photos.  With a tablet, I could see hooking the tablet to the camera, checking the photos right there, and correcting any problems all in one shot.
> 
> Banshee




I just got back from Bestbuy. I was able to check out the new Galaxy tab.
You are so right about no other connections. I couldn't tell the different in weight with the ipad 2. I can understand what you mean with the weight with the Xoom. But the unit ran quite nicely. The only problem was the screen would go dark in seconds, but it took a little while for me to find where to change the settings.  But that didn't help. I figured its just how the demo was setup. flipping from one screen to another was just a little different. It was more of a snap to screen then the smooth switching I use to with the pad. It did seem just as fast though. It was running 3.0 which is very nice. 
With more people using cloud storage the missing ports may not be a problem for them. I beleive they will be selling adapters that work like the ipads.
Now I'm no photogarphy expert. so I'm not sure what you use, but have you checked out Eye-fi products? They have new card called Eye-Fi Mobile X2 which will down load straight to a Ipad or Android device.
Depending on what type of camera of course.
I also checked out the Acer ICONIA A500 which was running 3.0. It was nice to see the same operating system on two different machines. I didn't see any different in performance though I didn't spend as much time on the Acer as I did the Galaxy. 
I then checked out the HTC Flyer. It was running FroYo 2.3. I didn't like it as well as 3.0. Honeycomb is definetly the way to go. It just feels more like a tablet os. I know it was designed for tablets, but there just something about it when you compare the two. You'll know what I mean when you check it out live.


----------



## Banshee16

falcarrion said:


> I just got back from Bestbuy. I was able to check out the new Galaxy tab.
> You are so right about no other connections. I couldn't tell the different in weight with the ipad 2. I can understand what you mean with the weight with the Xoom. But the unit ran quite nicely. The only problem was the screen would go dark in seconds, but it took a little while for me to find where to change the settings.  But that didn't help. I figured its just how the demo was setup. flipping from one screen to another was just a little different. It was more of a snap to screen then the smooth switching I use to with the pad. It did seem just as fast though. It was running 3.0 which is very nice.




I truly think some reviewers get a little biased.  I've used both Honeycomb and IOS devices in the store, and despite the "lag" that you hear of in Honeycomb devices, I really find it barely noticeable, if/when it appears.  And most of the time, it doesn't.  But yes, "snap" kind of describes it.  It's almost like you can move a screen back and forth smoothly, but when it comes to switching from one panel to the next, there's a pause then a snap on some devices.  I don't know if that's intentional or not.  I know the ability to have notifications right on screen, and widgets is pretty cool.

I did find the Xoom less bright than others...and almost a little less sharp as well.  Frankly, probably the sharpest screen I've seen on ANY tablet is the Playbook.....it's way sharper than even the iPad 2.  However.  I haven't seen the Galaxy Tab 10.1 yet...it's not available in Canada.

The weight of the Xoom was actually quite comfortable.  And it feels solid, which I like.




falcarrion said:


> With more people using cloud storage the missing ports may not be a problem for them. I beleive they will be selling adapters that work like the ipads.
> Now I'm no photogarphy expert. so I'm not sure what you use, but have you checked out Eye-fi products? They have new card called Eye-Fi Mobile X2 which will down load straight to a Ipad or Android device.
> Depending on what type of camera of course.
> I also checked out the Acer ICONIA A500 which was running 3.0. It was nice to see the same operating system on two different machines. I didn't see any different in performance though I didn't spend as much time on the Acer as I did the Galaxy.
> I then checked out the HTC Flyer. It was running FroYo 2.3. I didn't like it as well as 3.0. Honeycomb is definetly the way to go. It just feels more like a tablet os. I know it was designed for tablets, but there just something about it when you compare the two. You'll know what I mean when you check it out live.




The thing I think about with respect to Cloud storage.  With all these services moving files back and forth, well, what happens if you lose connectivity?  It happens.  You might have a device without 3G or 4G coverage.  Or, more likely, at least here in Canada, you might get bandwidth caps.  The main carriers in Canada, whose ex-flunkies run the CRTC are trying very hard to get bandwidth caps in place.  Just a few months back, they did, and second tier carriers, such as the one I use, were forced to change their packages as a result.  Mine used to be unlimited for about $30/month, and they switched it to $35/month for 25 GB.  Then that was overturned, and we're back to unlimited....but it's likely they'll get their capped bandwidth in one form or another.  Is it realistic to use Cloud services for storage in such a scenario?  I know my iPhone has even less bandwidth.  I've got a "good" package, and I still only get 6 GB/month......tethering a tablet to move files from and to the cloud could chew through that really quickly.

For photography, I use a Canon 30D, which runs a Compact Flash memory card.  I've heard of these Eye-Fi cards, but I don't know if they can be used in a camera that uses Compact Flash, or only in cameras that use the more common SD cards.  I would like to move to the 7D, but I think that still uses Compact Flash as well.

I've checked out the A500.  It seems nice, but I've read it has problems with video.  And it's selling very poorly, and there are little in the way of accessories.  The screen really did seem nice and bright though.  Sharper than the Xoom's.

I haven't seen the HTC Flyer anywhere.  They *do* have the old Galaxy Tab around....is that running Froyo?  I know it doesn't seem as nice as the Honeycomb tablets I've seen.

The other thing is that new, faster tablets with next gen CPU's will be coming out starting in the fall.  So buy now?  Or wait?  Since the Thrive won't be here until August, it's likely going to be another two months before I can make a decision, anyways.

Banshee


----------



## falcarrion

Banshee16 said:


> For photography, I use a Canon 30D, which runs a Compact Flash memory card.  I've heard of these Eye-Fi cards, but I don't know if they can be used in a camera that uses Compact Flash, or only in cameras that use the more common SD cards.  I would like to move to the 7D, but I think that still uses Compact Flash as well.
> Banshee




They only support the Eye-Fi Card in cameras designed to use SD or SDHC cards.
I checked on the old galaxy tab and it is Froyo 2.2


----------



## Felon

So, now the rumor mill is abuzz about the increasingly likely possibility that Amazon is getting into the tablet game. The official word from Amazon wasn't a denial or even a "we don't indulge speculation based on rumors", but rather "stay tuned".

My hunch is that this will be a real contender. Amazon has a lot going for it now, with it's Cloud Drive and cementing its own android app store.


----------



## Banshee16

Felon said:


> So, now the rumor mill is abuzz about the increasingly likely possibility that Amazon is getting into the tablet game. The official word from Amazon wasn't a denial or even a "we don't indulge speculation based on rumors", but rather "stay tuned".
> 
> My hunch is that this will be a real contender. Amazon has a lot going for it now, with it's Cloud Drive and cementing its own android app store.




Yeah, they've been talking about this one for a week or two, I believe.

What's intriguing are the rumours that it may have a switchable E-Ink to LCD display?  I'm not even sure how that would be possible...but if it is, it would be really versatile..

Banshee


----------



## Fast Learner

It first came up in a serious way about 6 weeks ago and seems to have a resurgence now. It is incredibly likely, and I for one look forward to what they'll come out with. That their Android app store is curated -- aka a "walled garden" -- is a serious boon to Android's potential future. Add to that their tremendous media offerings and they'll be a serious challenger.


----------



## Banshee16

Fast Learner said:


> It first came up in a serious way about 6 weeks ago and seems to have a resurgence now. It is incredibly likely, and I for one look forward to what they'll come out with. That their Android app store is curated -- aka a "walled garden" -- is a serious boon to Android's potential future. Add to that their tremendous media offerings and they'll be a serious challenger.




I assume the Amazon app store will be open to all Android devices?

Of course, that's assuming Apple doesn't succeed in blocking them.  The idea of trademarking something like "App Store" is just silly.  Reminds me of my first development job, years ago.  Some company in the U.S. came after us because we called our shopping cart a......shopping cart.  Apparently they had trademarked the name.  I suppose we could have called it a gurgleflunket, and not been pursued, but it would have been meaningless.  Or maybe our "Acme Really Efficient Interface for buying crap online".

Hopefully their media offerings will be available in Canada, but I'm not holding out any hope.

Banshee


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## Banshee16

Fast Learner said:


> It first came up in a serious way about 6 weeks ago and seems to have a resurgence now. It is incredibly likely, and I for one look forward to what they'll come out with. That their Android app store is curated -- aka a "walled garden" -- is a serious boon to Android's potential future. Add to that their tremendous media offerings and they'll be a serious challenger.




What is the quality level of Amazon's devices like?  Here in Canada, the dominant player is the Kobo Reader as it is the one pushed by Indigo/Chapters, our dominant bookstore chain.  I'm not familiar with the Kindle.

Do any of these E-ink displays have colour?  I'd thought of getting one for reading PDFs, but the Kobo is black and white...which led to consideration of a tablet in the first place.

Banshee


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## Felon

Banshee16 said:


> What is the quality level of Amazon's devices like?  Here in Canada, the dominant player is the Kobo Reader as it is the one pushed by Indigo/Chapters, our dominant bookstore chain.  I'm not familiar with the Kindle.
> 
> Do any of these E-ink displays have colour?  I'd thought of getting one for reading PDFs, but the Kobo is black and white...which led to consideration of a tablet in the first place.
> 
> Banshee



Basically, e-ink is just a little ball that's black on one side, pale on the other, and the reader rolls them over. This supposedly achieves a more pleasing look to text than square pixels. Makes sense, though it's mox nix to me.

There was talk of color e-ink being in development about a year ago, but I don't think anything's come of it.


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## Fast Learner

Banshee16 said:


> I assume the Amazon app store will be open to all Android devices?



It is as of today, definitely. If they had a really successful tablet of their own it's possible they'd eventually limit it, but it's unlikely.



> Of course, that's assuming Apple doesn't succeed in blocking them.



Apple isn't trying to block Amazon from selling apps, just from calling it an "app store", which you have to do in order to protect your trademark. 

"App Store" is nowhere near as generic as "shopping cart". Amazon can call it the Amazon App Shop, App Marketplace, App Center, App Hub, App Boutique, App Central, App House, App Emporium, App Market, App Emporium, App Showcase, App Vault, App Supply, App Bank, App Outlet, App Supercenter, App Bazaar, and a whole host of other things I didn't think of as I typed. Apple's protecting the specific trademark they registered years ago. 

Those off-the-top-of-my-head suggestions don't even touch on the hundreds or thousands of options that don't begin with the word "app". All of the permutations of Android _________, or House of Apps, or, really, anything. It's not like "Amazon" meant "book store" prior to Jeff Bezos deciding to call it that. The sky's the limit.


----------



## Fast Learner

Felon said:


> Basically, e-ink is just a little ball that's black on one side, pale on the other, and the reader rolls them over. This supposedly achieves a more pleasing look to text than square pixels. Makes sense, though it's mox nix to me.



I don't think spheres are used because they're more pleasing; they're just the only shape that will completely flip around when pulled at from any angle.


----------



## Felon

Fast Learner said:


> "App Store" is nowhere near as generic as "shopping cart". Amazon can call it the Amazon App Shop, App Marketplace, App Center, App Hub, App Boutique, App Central, App House, App Emporium, App Market, App Emporium, App Showcase, App Vault, App Supply, App Bank, App Outlet, App Supercenter, App Bazaar, and a whole host of other things I didn't think of as I typed. Apple's protecting the specific trademark they registered years ago. Those off-the-top-of-my-head suggestions don't even touch on the hundreds or thousands of options that don't begin with the word "app". All of the permutations of Android _________, or House of Apps, or, really, anything. It's not like "Amazon" meant "book store" prior to Jeff Bezos deciding to call it that. The sky's the limit.



This pretty handily misses the point. I won't argue how well "App Store" measures up to "shopping cart", but I will say for the record that it is exactly as generic as "Book Store" or "Shoe Store" or "Candy Store" or "Grocery Store", and I'd be pretty audacious for someone to try trademark those names, regardless of how early they called dibs or how many imagintive alternatives were left over for johnny-come-latelys to sift through. If Bob opens a store that sells shoes, he shouldn't have to flip through a thesaurus to try to find a synonym for "shoe" or "store" that he's allowed to use in labeling his business. Bob's Shoe Store should do just fine.



Fast Learner said:


> I don't think spheres are used because they're more pleasing; they're just the only shape that will completely flip around when pulled at from any angle.



I certainly can't deny that when it comes to rolling, spheres are where it's at. However, the point of e-ink is that it creates a less jagged test than digital fonts. Oh, and supposedly reads better in sunlight (something else I haven't really noticed).


----------



## Relique du Madde

Problem is that everyone uses the word "app" and last I checked the word app is not a registered trademark, and even if it were it fallen into common usage. So let's look at the usage in question:  "App Store."   That describes a store that sells apps, not a store that sells iOs apps.

Allowing apple to have and keep the trademark on "App Store" instead of just the trademark for "Apple App Store" or "iTunes AppStore" would be like giving Ford the trademark the phrases "Automotive Deallership" or "Auto Deallership" since the phrase is too generic on its own.


----------



## Fast Learner

Felon said:


> This pretty handily misses the point. I won't argue how well "App Store" measures up to "shopping cart", but I will say for the record that it is exactly as generic as "Book Store" or "Shoe Store" or "Candy Store" or "Grocery Store", and I'd be pretty audacious for someone to try trademark those names, regardless of how early they called dibs or how many imagintive alternatives were left over for johnny-come-latelys to sift through.



Except for how "app" isn't the one word used by everyone to describe the thing sold at the App Store. *Software* for computing devices is generic, and "software store" is certainly as generic as "shoe store". Apple wasn't the first to use the term "app", but they certainly were the ones to popularize it, and most certainly for mobile devices.

Prior to Apple's "App Store" you could download software for your mobile device -- your Palm PDA or phone, your Symbian PDA or phone, your Microsoft Pocket PC PDA or phone, your Nokia phone -- from a wide range of "stores" and, strangely, none of them were called "app store". They weren't even called things like "Palm App Store" or "Pocket PC App Store". If it's so obvious and generic, why wasn't it used? Why weren't those software downloads even called "apps"?

If Apple had decided to call downloadable software for the iPhone "applets" and opened the "Applet Store" and everyone who followed started calling them "applets" too and opening up "applet stores", I take it you would similarly argue that Apple's trademark on "Applet Store" would be invalid because suddenly everyone's using the term "applet", is that right? 

What's the reason that downloadable software for a mobile device has to be called "apps" by Google or by anyone but Apple?

I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate here, in that I suspect the trademark won't end up being defensible, but I strongly feel that the "it's a completely obvious use" argument simply doesn't hold water: if it was so obvious then it would have been in use, and if "app" was such an obvious generic term for downloadable mobile software then they would have been called "apps".


----------



## Fast Learner

Felon said:


> However, the point of e-ink is that it creates a less jagged test than digital fonts.



It's just that (a) I'm completely unfamiliar with this argument and have been closely following e-paper since Jacobson's invention of electrophoretic displays in the late 90s, and (b) the argument seems nonsensical since modern Latin letterforms are composed of lots of straight horizontal and vertical lines, all of which would become infinitely more jaggy if drawn with circles instead of squares.


----------



## falcarrion

Banshee16 said:


> What is the quality level of Amazon's devices like?  Here in Canada, the dominant player is the Kobo Reader as it is the one pushed by Indigo/Chapters, our dominant bookstore chain.  I'm not familiar with the Kindle.
> 
> Do any of these E-ink displays have colour?  I'd thought of getting one for reading PDFs, but the Kobo is black and white...which led to consideration of a tablet in the first place.
> 
> Banshee




He is a report on a color e-ink e-reader
Hanvon brings world's first color E Ink reader to CES, we go hands-on (video) -- Engadget


----------



## MarauderX

Having used an iPad for a bit, I find myself wanting to just go to reliable websites instead of popping open an app.  I don't want a restriction on what I can do because the app doesn't have it, or that I need to pay $30+ for it.  Just like so many other trades, there are not enough apps to support what I do while the industry websites and sources have matured to use the Internet well.  Perhaps there needs to be more time for the apps to get there, but in the meantime I'm not paying for apps that I can use a website for free with better accuracy.


----------



## Banshee16

Relique du Madde said:


> Problem is that everyone uses the word "app" and last I checked the word app is not a registered trademark, and even if it were it fallen into common usage. So let's look at the usage in question:  "App Store."   That describes a store that sells apps, not a store that sells iOs apps.
> 
> Allowing apple to have and keep the trademark on "App Store" instead of just the trademark for "Apple App Store" or "iTunes AppStore" would be like giving Ford the trademark the phrases "Automotive Deallership" or "Auto Deallership" since the phrase is too generic on its own.




Exactly....that's kind of what I'm getting at.  Apps weren't invented by Apple
so App Store is as generic as shoe store.

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16

Fast Learner said:


> Except for how "app" isn't the one word used by everyone to describe the thing sold at the App Store. *Software* for computing devices is generic, and "software store" is certainly as generic as "shoe store". Apple wasn't the first to use the term "app", but they certainly were the ones to popularize it, and most certainly for mobile devices.
> 
> Prior to Apple's "App Store" you could download software for your mobile device -- your Palm PDA or phone, your Symbian PDA or phone, your Microsoft Pocket PC PDA or phone, your Nokia phone -- from a wide range of "stores" and, strangely, none of them were called "app store". They weren't even called things like "Palm App Store" or "Pocket PC App Store". If it's so obvious and generic, why wasn't it used? Why weren't those software downloads even called "apps"?
> 
> If Apple had decided to call downloadable software for the iPhone "applets" and opened the "Applet Store" and everyone who followed started calling them "applets" too and opening up "applet stores", I take it you would similarly argue that Apple's trademark on "Applet Store" would be invalid because suddenly everyone's using the term "applet", is that right?
> 
> What's the reason that downloadable software for a mobile device has to be called "apps" by Google or by anyone but Apple?
> 
> I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate here, in that I suspect the trademark won't end up being defensible, but I strongly feel that the "it's a completely obvious use" argument simply doesn't hold water: if it was so obvious then it would have been in use, and if "app" was such an obvious generic term for downloadable mobile software then they would have been called "apps".




Microsoft has objected to Apple's trademark application on the grounds that the word "app"is shorthand for application and has been in use for over 1o years.  Even Steve Jobs has been recorded using the term in public, when referring to the stores of his competitors.  How can they claim to trademark something that was in use 10 years before they opened their app store?

Banshee


----------



## falcarrion

MarauderX said:


> Having used an iPad for a bit, I find myself wanting to just go to reliable websites instead of popping open an app.  I don't want a restriction on what I can do because the app doesn't have it, or that I need to pay $30+ for it.  Just like so many other trades, there are not enough apps to support what I do while the industry websites and sources have matured to use the Internet well.  Perhaps there needs to be more time for the apps to get there, but in the meantime I'm not paying for apps that I can use a website for free with better accuracy.




If that is the case. Why not setup an app icon to go to the website.


----------



## Banshee16

falcarrion said:


> If that is the case. Why not setup an app icon to go to the website.




Because the website may have an interface that includes Flash elements?

That's a big reason why Apple needs so frikkin many apps.  Want to measure connection speed, download the Speedtest.net app, since the actual website uses Flash.

That would be my main guess.

Banshee


----------



## Felon

Fast Learner said:


> Except for how "app" isn't the one word used by everyone to describe the thing sold at the App Store. *Software* for computing devices is generic, and "software store" is certainly as generic as "shoe store". Apple wasn't the first to use the term "app", but they certainly were the ones to popularize it, and most certainly for mobile devices.
> 
> Prior to Apple's "App Store" you could download software for your mobile device -- your Palm PDA or phone, your Symbian PDA or phone, your Microsoft Pocket PC PDA or phone, your Nokia phone -- from a wide range of "stores" and, strangely, none of them were called "app store". They weren't even called things like "Palm App Store" or "Pocket PC App Store". If it's so obvious and generic, why wasn't it used? Why weren't those software downloads even called "apps"?
> 
> If Apple had decided to call downloadable software for the iPhone "applets" and opened the "Applet Store" and everyone who followed started calling them "applets" too and opening up "applet stores", I take it you would similarly argue that Apple's trademark on "Applet Store" would be invalid because suddenly everyone's using the term "applet", is that right?
> 
> What's the reason that downloadable software for a mobile device has to be called "apps" by Google or by anyone but Apple?
> 
> I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate here, in that I suspect the trademark won't end up being defensible, but I strongly feel that the "it's a completely obvious use" argument simply doesn't hold water: if it was so obvious then it would have been in use, and if "app" was such an obvious generic term for downloadable mobile software then they would have been called "apps".



As you say, the term "app" has been around a long time, and is simply an abreviation of "application". As such, it's simply not something that someone can claim a trademark. That they popularized it with mainstream consumers through their undeniably innovative approach to smartphones doesn't create any legal entitlement to force others to call their app stores something than an app store.

The initial priority behind the laws governign trademarks, patents, copyrights, and public domain were to ultimately server the many, i.e. the consumer. Gradually this has been chipped away at as business have gained increased influence over legislation, but the fact remains that ultimately, the decision in this case is that is not good for a consuemr who's looking to buy a shot to have to figure out what creative descriptor other business have come up with to identify themselves as a shoe store. 

Btw, that's speaking as a proud iPhone owner.


----------



## Relique du Madde

Fast Learner said:


> If Apple had decided to call downloadable software for the iPhone "applets" and opened the "Applet Store" and everyone who followed started calling them "applets" too and opening up "applet stores", I take it you would similarly argue that Apple's trademark on "Applet Store" would be invalid because suddenly everyone's using the term "applet", is that right?




That would have been funny because well... Apple did coin the term "Applet" for the use of small applications (back in 1993) HOWEVER it became synonymous with Java, which is the basis of Android.  

See why they didn't use "applet"?


----------



## Fast Learner

Relique du Madde said:


> That would have been funny because well... Apple did coin the term "Applet" for the use of small applications (back in 1993) HOWEVER it became synonymous with Java, which is the basis of Android.
> 
> See why they didn't use "applet"?



It was also already in use for mobile software by, if I recall correctly, Palm in the late 90s, too, and they weren't referring to Java applets. I was simply using it as an example of a term for software.


----------



## falcarrion

Banshee16 said:


> Because the website may have an interface that includes Flash elements?
> 
> That's a big reason why Apple needs so frikkin many apps.  Want to measure connection speed, download the Speedtest.net app, since the actual website uses Flash.
> 
> That would be my main guess.
> 
> Banshee




I could always get the Skyfire Web Browser app. Check out the link below.
Skyfire for iPhone | Skyfire
http://www.skyfire.com/en/product/ipad

Personally I like having a large amount of apps to choose from. Then I can customize my ipad to my liking. It also lets me work off line. I'm not always in an area with internet access. Sure some you will need to have access but not all. 
If I really wanted to expand the abilities of my Ipad I could always jail break it.


----------



## Banshee16

falcarrion said:


> I could always get the Skyfire Web Browser app. Check out the link below.
> Skyfire for iPhone | Skyfire
> Skyfire for iPad | Skyfire
> 
> Personally I like having a large amount of apps to choose from. Then I can customize my ipad to my liking. It also lets me work off line. I'm not always in an area with internet access. Sure some you will need to have access but not all.
> If I really wanted to expand the abilities of my Ipad I could always jail break it.




I like that aspect of my iPhone as well.  But I get more dropped calls, and more issues with call quality than I did with my Blackberry, and I find e-mails and texting aren`t nearly as good.

But, as a portable computer?  Very useful.

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16

So, speaking of iPhones, my wife had hers knocked from her hand tonight, and it pretty much pulled a "T-1000 at the end of Terminator 2".

I thought Gorilla Glass was supposed to make the phone more resistant?

This thing couldn't be in worse condition than if I'd beat on it with a sledgehammer.  

Very disappointed.  That's ALOT of money to spend on a device that can break so thoroughly that easily.

No wonder Apple sells so many of them.  I wonder how many are replacements?

Banshee


----------



## Fast Learner

Banshee16 said:


> I thought Gorilla Glass was supposed to make the phone more resistant?



It's very good at bending without breaking, very good at not getting scratched, and very good at not getting nicked when hit directly with something hard. It is not, as you have seen, all that great against hard crashes.



> Very disappointed.  That's ALOT of money to spend on a device that can break so thoroughly that easily.



Yeah, that bites. After I accidentally dropped an extremely heavy rock on my older iPhone (which, frankly, I wouldn't have expected any device to survive), we sprung for SquareTrade coverage on our newer phones: $50/year is more than I'd like but it covers all drops and liquid damage, including full immersion. We feel a lot more comfortable with them now.


----------



## falcarrion

What glass is!


----------



## Banshee16

falcarrion said:


> What glass is!




Well, one of my clients used to manufacture glass (or a glass treatment) that rendered it RPG proof.  But I don't think that will be used in an iPhone.

Given that, the obvious question is, if it's so fragile, why make the entire device out of it?  I mean, the face, I can see...but why also the back?

We're trying to deal with the Apple Store right now, to see if we can get it fixed.....but if this is going to be some kind of $200 repair bill, seeya, one cancellation of cellphone services coming up.

Either that, or she'll have to use my Bold for now.  I know it's pretty darned robust.  I wonder if devices by other manufacturers such as Samsung and Motorola are similarly robust as a Blackberry, or if they'll shatter on impact as well?  Many aren't glass on both sides...but plastic *can* crack.

I've bought an Otterbox Defender case for mine, and it seems to help.  I know I have butterfingers at times, so it's nice having *some* protection, though I'm not going to go throwing it around to test it.

Banshee


----------



## Janx

Banshee16 said:


> Well, one of my clients used to manufacture glass (or a glass treatment) that rendered it RPG proof.  But I don't think that will be used in an iPhone.
> 
> Given that, the obvious question is, if it's so fragile, why make the entire device out of it?  I mean, the face, I can see...but why also the back?
> 
> We're trying to deal with the Apple Store right now, to see if we can get it fixed.....but if this is going to be some kind of $200 repair bill, seeya, one cancellation of cellphone services coming up.
> 
> Either that, or she'll have to use my Bold for now.  I know it's pretty darned robust.  I wonder if devices by other manufacturers such as Samsung and Motorola are similarly robust as a Blackberry, or if they'll shatter on impact as well?  Many aren't glass on both sides...but plastic *can* crack.
> 
> I've bought an Otterbox Defender case for mine, and it seems to help.  I know I have butterfingers at times, so it's nice having *some* protection, though I'm not going to go throwing it around to test it.
> 
> Banshee




I recall there were some law suits about the fragility of the screens on earlier models.

I know a friend of mine asked about screen toughness at the apple store, and the employee pulled out his personal iphone4 and banged the stuffing out of it on the counter to demonstrate its ruggedness.

I reckon though, an impact on the right spot can still break it.

Luckily, since all but 2 people on the planet have to buy a cover for their iPhone4 to avoid dropped calls, virtually all iPhone4's have some extra protection, just in case...


----------



## falcarrion

Banshee16 said:


> Well, one of my clients used to manufacture glass (or a glass treatment) that rendered it RPG proof.  But I don't think that will be used in an iPhone.
> 
> Given that, the obvious question is, if it's so fragile, why make the entire device out of it?  I mean, the face, I can see...but why also the back?
> 
> We're trying to deal with the Apple Store right now, to see if we can get it fixed.....but if this is going to be some kind of $200 repair bill, seeya, one cancellation of cellphone services coming up.
> 
> Either that, or she'll have to use my Bold for now.  I know it's pretty darned robust.  I wonder if devices by other manufacturers such as Samsung and Motorola are similarly robust as a Blackberry, or if they'll shatter on impact as well?  Many aren't glass on both sides...but plastic *can* crack.
> 
> I've bought an Otterbox Defender case for mine, and it seems to help.  I know I have butterfingers at times, so it's nice having *some* protection, though I'm not going to go throwing it around to test it.
> 
> Banshee



I agree the front and back is crazy. Was it just the back that cracked?
I'm not sure if goriila glass was used on the front and back. I'll have to check on that. DigiExpress has a sale on the back glass at 29.99. If you want them to install it add another 25 bucks.


----------



## Alan Shutko

Apple will also do a back-glass replacement for about $30.  It's $200 for front and back (or front and back and everything else, it's their flat-rate repair).

The problem is you can usually choose things for hardness (which stops scratches) or impact resistance. There aren't any materials which do well at both right now, at least for consumer product.


----------



## falcarrion

The type of glass used by Apple is still in question. Apple nor Corning will confirm that gorilla glass is used in the Iphone. Some people claim it is some say no and others say the front is and the back is not. With what I have seen of gorilla glass, such as the dell streak demo. It is extreamely tough. So I don't think the back of the Iphone is gorilla glass.


----------



## Felon

Banshee16 said:


> Given that, the obvious question is, if it's so fragile, why make the entire device out of it?  I mean, the face, I can see...but why also the back?
> Banshee



And hey, what's the deal with the black box? I mean, really. if it's designed to survive a plane crash intact, why not build the entire plane out of the black box??? Thanks, you've been a great audience.

Sorry about your wife's phone, but I couldn't resist. I too know the pain of a cracked screen, and not one but two volume rockers have been dislodged from my iPhone. But I'm hard on my toys.


----------



## Felon

Are there Coyotes in Hollywood? Because otherwise, the naming convention doesn't seem very consistent. Nonetheless, this is some tantalizing rumormongering about Amazon's alleged upcoming tablet:

Amazon prepping dual-core 'Coyote' and quad-core 'Hollywood' tablets for 2011


----------



## Banshee16

Janx said:


> I recall there were some law suits about the fragility of the screens on earlier models.
> 
> I know a friend of mine asked about screen toughness at the apple store, and the employee pulled out his personal iphone4 and banged the stuffing out of it on the counter to demonstrate its ruggedness.
> 
> I reckon though, an impact on the right spot can still break it.
> 
> Luckily, since all but 2 people on the planet have to buy a cover for their iPhone4 to avoid dropped calls, virtually all iPhone4's have some extra protection, just in case...




Unfortunately, she chose her case based on cuteness rather than practical considerations.  When caught between a rock and a hard place, cute always fails.  As this one did.  So far mine has withstood 10x as much punihment with my Otterbox.  Of course everyone makes fun of me for it being unstylish.

Anyways I won't vent here further.  It's too bad they made those decisions as I do think it weakens the overall product, but it hasn't seemed to slow down sales.  As to the contoversy about whether or not gorilla glass has been used...I didn't even know there WAS controversy.  I thought it truly had gorilla glass.

Of course, some claim Apple has had other instances where they either intimate or claim one of their products has a feature that it turns out not to have....such as the new Time Capsule which they supposedly claim has an enterprise class hard drive, when teardowns have revealed it may be a regular hard drive.

Does Apple's Time Capsule really use a 'server-grade' hard drive? | Crave - CNET

I'll take her to the Apple Store tomorrow and see what happens.  My sister claims she dropped hers and they replaced it free of charge, and the person behind her in line had dropped theirs, and it was also replaced for free.  If that's done, I'll definitely have to eat some crow.

Banshee


----------



## falcarrion

Felon said:


> Are there Coyotes in Hollywood? Because otherwise, the naming convention doesn't seem very consistent. Nonetheless, this is some tantalizing rumormongering about Amazon's alleged upcoming tablet:
> 
> Amazon prepping dual-core 'Coyote' and quad-core 'Hollywood' tablets for 2011




Yes. There are coyotes in every state but Hawaii.


----------



## falcarrion

Banshee16 said:


> Unfortunately, she chose her case based on cuteness rather than practical considerations.  When caught between a rock and a hard place, cute always fails.  As this one did.  So far mine has withstood 10x as much punihment with my Otterbox.  Of course everyone makes fun of me for it being unstylish.
> 
> Anyways I won't vent here further.  It's too bad they made those decisions as I do think it weakens the overall product, but it hasn't seemed to slow down sales.  As to the contoversy about whether or not gorilla glass has been used...I didn't even know there WAS controversy.  I thought it truly had gorilla glass.
> 
> Of course, some claim Apple has had other instances where they either intimate or claim one of their products has a feature that it turns out not to have....such as the new Time Capsule which they supposedly claim has an enterprise class hard drive, when teardowns have revealed it may be a regular hard drive.
> 
> Does Apple's Time Capsule really use a 'server-grade' hard drive? | Crave - CNET
> 
> I'll take her to the Apple Store tomorrow and see what happens.  My sister claims she dropped hers and they replaced it free of charge, and the person behind her in line had dropped theirs, and it was also replaced for free.  If that's done, I'll definitely have to eat some crow.
> 
> Banshee




Summer Crow Kabobs
submitted by Gordon Krause (The CrowMaster)

Ingredients
16 pieces of crow breast meat (no bones) (8 crows)
16 pieces of green pepper
16 cherry tomatoes
8 button mushrooms
8 ears of sweet corn
1 1/2 cups of Teriyaki sauce
1/2 cup melted butter
8 kabob skewers 
Preparation
Cut each piece of crow in half and place in a covered bowl with the Teriyaki sauce over night. Clean and cut each ear of corn into 3 pieces. Cook in boiling salt water for 10 minutes. Alternately put corn (3 pieces), green peppers (3 pieces) and cherry tomatoes (3) along with 4 pieces of crow meat on each skewer. Use 1 mushroom to top each skewer. Brush with melted butter and place on preheated grill for about 4 minutes. Flip, butter again and place back on grill for another 4 minutes. Repeat one last time for a total of 12 minutes or until they appear done. Serves four adults.


----------



## Banshee16

falcarrion said:


> Summer Crow Kabobs
> submitted by Gordon Krause (The CrowMaster)
> 
> Ingredients
> 16 pieces of crow breast meat (no bones) (8 crows)
> 16 pieces of green pepper
> 16 cherry tomatoes
> 8 button mushrooms
> 8 ears of sweet corn
> 1 1/2 cups of Teriyaki sauce
> 1/2 cup melted butter
> 8 kabob skewers
> Preparation
> Cut each piece of crow in half and place in a covered bowl with the Teriyaki sauce over night. Clean and cut each ear of corn into 3 pieces. Cook in boiling salt water for 10 minutes. Alternately put corn (3 pieces), green peppers (3 pieces) and cherry tomatoes (3) along with 4 pieces of crow meat on each skewer. Use 1 mushroom to top each skewer. Brush with melted butter and place on preheated grill for about 4 minutes. Flip, butter again and place back on grill for another 4 minutes. Repeat one last time for a total of 12 minutes or until they appear done. Serves four adults.




I hope not to have to use the recipe, but thanks for supplying it.  I'll find out more tomorrow..

I'm not too proud to accept a bit of generosity.  I'd rather eat crow and save that $200, rather than be right, and be out $200 

Banshee


----------



## Relique du Madde

I dropped my Droid 2 today.  It didn't break.  

Unfortunately it still isn't 2.3.


----------



## Banshee16

Relique du Madde said:


> I dropped my Droid 2 today.  It didn't break.
> 
> Unfortunately it still isn't 2.3.




I don't think we have nearly the same choice of Android phones up here.  My current carrier has the Samsung Nexus S and Galaxy S....beyond that, it seems like lower end phones....one called the Liquid, and one that seems like both a phone, and a PS3 controller.

In any case, interesting to hear that yours didn't break.

Do you use a cover?  I've had three Blackberries, and only one ever broke.  And that one only had a hairline crack across the screen, despite falling on concrete, and it still worked perfectly well.

Phones just seem to be one of those things that are easy to drop.  I haven't dropped my laptop the same way, so I figure it might be the same with a tablet....not that I ever want to!

Banshee


----------



## Relique du Madde

Banshee16 said:


> In any case, interesting to hear that yours didn't break.
> 
> Do you use a cover?



Half a cover.  The face cover always breaks off.  I was worried the phone was going to break since it fell face first onto ceramic tiled floor.

What's funny is that one of the hostesses at my family's restaurant just got a Thunderbolt with a cover that has to be the thickest cover in the world.  The cover literally adds as full quarter inch to it's bulk.  I would be amazed if that phone isn't able to survive a drop (assuming it doesn't land on something that strikes only the glass).



> Phones just seem to be one of those things that are easy to drop.  I haven't dropped my laptop the same way, so I figure it might be the same with a tablet....not that I ever want to!




Even though my Xoom's cover is pretty thick, that is one thing I don't want to drop.


----------



## Fast Learner

Banshee16 said:


> I'll take her to the Apple Store tomorrow and see what happens.  My sister claims she dropped hers and they replaced it free of charge, and the person behind her in line had dropped theirs, and it was also replaced for free.  If that's done, I'll definitely have to eat some crow.



Here's my advice on Apple Store repairs: be utterly and completely honest, it'll go a very long way. 

I've heard similar stories before, but here's my experience: I spilled water into my MacBook. It wasn't a lot and I immediately shut it down, shook it out, didn't start it until it was good and dry, etc. Nonetheless it was damaged and about half the keys on the keyboard didn't work.

I took it into the Apple Store and they looked it over. They asked me what had happened and I told them that I'd screwed up and spilled some water into it. After going through everything the repair turned out to be quite pricey because it was a bit of damage to the logic board, which they don't break down and fix, they only replace. $400. Crap.

He said, however, that he'd have it fixed for free, and for one big reason: I'd told the truth about what happened. He said that you wouldn't believe how many people come in with damaged devices and claim that nothing happened, that it just stopped working and that the manufacturer's warrantee should cover it. Damage like a smashed in laptop screen where whatever had hit it had enough force to _outdent the aluminum lid_. Damage like machines that not only had all of their immersion sensors set off but _still had pools of water inside_. Etc.

I know that if I was in that guy's position and had people blatantly lying to me like that, if it was in my power I'd definitely reward the people who just came in and told the damned truth about what happened.


----------



## Banshee16

Fast Learner said:


> Here's my advice on Apple Store repairs: be utterly and completely honest, it'll go a very long way.
> 
> I've heard similar stories before, but here's my experience: I spilled water into my MacBook. It wasn't a lot and I immediately shut it down, shook it out, didn't start it until it was good and dry, etc. Nonetheless it was damaged and about half the keys on the keyboard didn't work.
> 
> I took it into the Apple Store and they looked it over. They asked me what had happened and I told them that I'd screwed up and spilled some water into it. After going through everything the repair turned out to be quite pricey because it was a bit of damage to the logic board, which they don't break down and fix, they only replace. $400. Crap.
> 
> He said, however, that he'd have it fixed for free, and for one big reason: I'd told the truth about what happened. He said that you wouldn't believe how many people come in with damaged devices and claim that nothing happened, that it just stopped working and that the manufacturer's warrantee should cover it. Damage like a smashed in laptop screen where whatever had hit it had enough force to _outdent the aluminum lid_. Damage like machines that not only had all of their immersion sensors set off but _still had pools of water inside_. Etc.
> 
> I know that if I was in that guy's position and had people blatantly lying to me like that, if it was in my power I'd definitely reward the people who just came in and told the damned truth about what happened.




That's something I wasn't sure of.  I figured honesty might help, but I've been told not to admit it was dropped on concrete.  I've got other phones that's happened with, and they didn't shatter.  This one did.  We were walking the baby buggy, she went to pull out the camera, she had reached below the handle to get the phone out of the "glove compartment", and as she pulled it out, the back of her hand accidentally got caught against the handle, and it must have startled her or whatever, as it loosened her grip enough that it dislodged her phone from her fingers, and it tumbled to the ground.

Were we being reckless?  No.  It was just pure, bad luck.

It's a phone.  You're going to use it.  You're unlikely to strap it to your body....so you have to pull it out to use it, and accidents happen.  Mine has a slight chip in the screen, despite the otterbox, as I was listening to some tunes while I was walking our german shepherd, he saw another dog and started going insane barking at it, when I tried to stop him, he got his front leg caught in the earphone cord and ripped the phone out of the belt clip and smashed it to the ground on top of a rock.  I've since learned to wear the cable for my headphones *under* my clothes, to prevent a repeat. The chip itself is so tiny you have to hold it an inch from your face at an angle to notice it.  I was disappointed at first, but at this point, it's a big deal.  Unless I specifically look for it, I don't notice it.  That particular fall on concrete was far more violent than what happened to her phone.  The only difference, I think, was the case.

Incidentally, I still haven't figured out how to get the dog to stop barking at other dogs when leashed.  If we're at an off leash dog park, or in the house and a visitor comes over, it's a different story.   All happy wagging tail and face licks.  But that's seriously off topic at this point.

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16

Incidentally, I checked out the EEE Pad Transformer at Staples, and it actually seems quite nice.  It really doesn't feel that thick or heavy, even though it has more of both measurements than the iPad 2.

The keyboard dock is rather nice as well.  And the screen quality is pretty good.  I have to say, they had it mounted next to the Xoom and it compared very, very well.

Banshee


----------



## falcarrion

Banshee16 said:


> That's something I wasn't sure of.  I figured honesty might help, but I've been told not to admit it was dropped on concrete.  I've got other phones that's happened with, and they didn't shatter.  This one did.  We were walking the baby buggy, she went to pull out the camera, she had reached below the handle to get the phone out of the "glove compartment", and as she pulled it out, the back of her hand accidentally got caught against the handle, and it must have startled her or whatever, as it loosened her grip enough that it dislodged her phone from her fingers, and it tumbled to the ground.
> 
> Were we being reckless?  No.  It was just pure, bad luck.
> 
> It's a phone.  You're going to use it.  You're unlikely to strap it to your body....so you have to pull it out to use it, and accidents happen.  Mine has a slight chip in the screen, despite the otterbox, as I was listening to some tunes while I was walking our german shepherd, he saw another dog and started going insane barking at it, when I tried to stop him, he got his front leg caught in the earphone cord and ripped the phone out of the belt clip and smashed it to the ground on top of a rock.  I've since learned to wear the cable for my headphones *under* my clothes, to prevent a repeat. The chip itself is so tiny you have to hold it an inch from your face at an angle to notice it.  I was disappointed at first, but at this point, it's a big deal.  Unless I specifically look for it, I don't notice it.  That particular fall on concrete was far more violent than what happened to her phone.  The only difference, I think, was the case.
> 
> Incidentally, I still haven't figured out how to get the dog to stop barking at other dogs when leashed.  If we're at an off leash dog park, or in the house and a visitor comes over, it's a different story.   All happy wagging tail and face licks.  But that's seriously off topic at this point.
> 
> Banshee




First I wish you and your family well. Second a dog story now and then is good for the heart. I lost mine about 5 years ago.
Though knowing me I would be working on a harness for her to hold the ipad.
That way I could pet her and play on the Ipad at the same time.


----------



## Banshee16

falcarrion said:


> First I wish you and your family well. Second a dog story now and then is good for the heart. I lost mine about 5 years ago.
> Though knowing me I would be working on a harness for her to hold the ipad.
> That way I could pet her and play on the Ipad at the same time.




Thanks.  Dogs are definitely family members.  Ours is lovely.....but the barking can be annoying...particularly since some people are already scared of German Shepherds.  I had him bark at one woman....one single bark, and she started crying.

Incidentally, I'll have to use that crow recipe you supplied.  My wife just got back.  She got to the store, put our baby in his little car seat on the counter, started to explain to the guy at the Apple Store, and he "got" it.  He said the iPhone 4 is one piece, and they can't just replace individual panels, so they replaced the entire phone, free of charge.

That's very good customer service.

Banshee


----------



## IronWolf

Banshee16 said:


> Incidentally, I'll have to use that crow recipe you supplied.  My wife just got back.  She got to the store, put our baby in his little car seat on the counter, started to explain to the guy at the Apple Store, and he "got" it.  He said the iPhone 4 is one piece, and they can't just replace individual panels, so they replaced the entire phone, free of charge.
> 
> That's very good customer service.




Excellent! Glad that worked out for you!


----------



## Fast Learner

Banshee16 said:


> Incidentally, I'll have to use that crow recipe you supplied.  My wife just got back.  She got to the store, put our baby in his little car seat on the counter, started to explain to the guy at the Apple Store, and he "got" it.  He said the iPhone 4 is one piece, and they can't just replace individual panels, so they replaced the entire phone, free of charge.
> 
> That's very good customer service.



Excellent, glad to hear it. For all its faults, Apple does tend to be very good at customer service (though the exceptions are usually very bad).


----------



## falcarrion

Banshee16 said:


> Thanks.  Dogs are definitely family members.  Ours is lovely.....but the barking can be annoying...particularly since some people are already scared of German Shepherds.  I had him bark at one woman....one single bark, and she started crying.
> 
> Incidentally, I'll have to use that crow recipe you supplied.  My wife just got back.  She got to the store, put our baby in his little car seat on the counter, started to explain to the guy at the Apple Store, and he "got" it.  He said the iPhone 4 is one piece, and they can't just replace individual panels, so they replaced the entire phone, free of charge.
> 
> That's very good customer service.
> 
> Banshee




A new phone thats awsome.


----------



## Felon

Consider all the potentially great threads that wither on the vine in this forum, and then consider how much of the last couple of pages we've spent gabbing about a crack in one guy's iPhone screen. Insane.


----------



## Relique du Madde

I just think that there haven't been any major new news in the realm of tablets beyond MS arm ringing a bunch of Android makers to give them royalties.


----------



## falcarrion

I think we have done very well with this thread. Helping a fellow person who's wife's phone got busted, isn't insane but being decent to another person. I just hope we have been helpful and imformative to those who are concidering or have purchased Tablets. Where else can you get people going out, checking out new tablets and coming back and give there honest opinoin on it. We have avoided the typical apple is better than android or android is better than apple war. Unlike the edition wars we see ruin a good thread.
I don't have any android products but thanks to those who do I have learned what they like and don't like about them. And I and others who have an Ipad have tried to do the same for them.


----------



## Felon

Relique du Madde said:


> I just think that there haven't been any major new news in the realm of tablets beyond MS arm ringing a bunch of Android makers to give them royalties.



Well, the HP Touchpad reviews are starting to roll in. And if we're going to talk about the iPhone, why not the 4.7" screen smartphone that HTC announced? That's almost a tablet!


----------



## falcarrion

The only report I have read on the HP Tablet has not been great. But that's only one report.


----------



## Felon

falcarrion said:


> The only report I have read on the HP Tablet has not been great. But that's only one report.




Here's CNet's, which gives it 3.5 starts (they gave the iPad 4, and pretty much every other major tablet effort 3.5): HP TouchPad Review - Watch CNET's Video Review

Here's Engadget (7/10): HP TouchPad Review - Watch CNET's Video Review

Lots of reviews out now. They're pretty much all praising the potential of WebOS rather than the actual device.

You ask me, if you're making a tablet that's not the iPad, you oughta make darn sure you either have a port for USB or an SD card. Micro SD card is OK, but micro USB is not (because it alienates thumb drives). Ports and Flash capability form the basis of what makes any given tablet more desirable than the iPad. Everything else is gravy. 

So, as far as the Touchpad goes, why am I not better off just running Android off of a nice, cheap Nook?


----------



## Banshee16

falcarrion said:


> I think we have done very well with this thread. Helping a fellow person who's wife's phone got busted, isn't insane but being decent to another person. I just hope we have been helpful and imformative to those who are concidering or have purchased Tablets. Where else can you get people going out, checking out new tablets and coming back and give there honest opinoin on it. We have avoided the typical apple is better than android or android is better than apple war. Unlike the edition wars we see ruin a good thread.
> I don't have any android products but thanks to those who do I have learned what they like and don't like about them. And I and others who have an Ipad have tried to do the same for them.




I think overall, this has been a great thread.  Sorry to dominate it with crack talk (sorry for the pun).

Overall, the discussion in this thread has been Shakespeare, compared to the Sesame Street going on on pretty much every tech forum I've visited, to read about tablets.

So, a credit to everyone for respecting each others' opinions.

On tablet talk, most of the reviews of the TouchPad seem pretty much the same....hardware is decent, but bulky.  The potential of WebOS is great, because, from an interface design, it is a really great start.  But slowness issues (possibly bugs), and a very small number of apps.

Discussion of the fact that HP may license the OS to other manufacturers such as Samsung are rather interesting though.  If it starts popping up on other devices, that could create a justification for the development of more apps.

Unfortunately, no tablet has met the iPad 2 in reviews.  I'm not sure if that's bias, or if it's just outright better.  At the moment, the kings seem to be Samsung Galaxy Tab 10.1 and iPad 2.  Of course, the 10.1 is the closest in terms of weight etc....but gives up many of its advantages to accomplish that....no ports, no memory expansion, etc.

Now, with reports that a quad core ASUS EEE Pad Transformer II is on the way this fall....well.....that's food for thought.

Banshee


----------



## Fast Learner

A consistent complaint has been a lack of UI responsiveness, something you hear with many Android tablets and phones, too. It's one of the areas where the iPad really shines and you can see Apple's first-mover advantage: they had years to get that working really well.


----------



## Felon

Banshee16 said:


> Unfortunately, no tablet has met the iPad 2 in reviews.  I'm not sure if that's bias, or if it's just outright better.  At the moment, the kings seem to be Samsung Galaxy Tab 10.1 and iPad 2.  Of course, the 10.1 is the closest in terms of weight etc....but gives up many of its advantages to accomplish that....no ports, no memory expansion, etc.
> 
> Now, with reports that a quad core ASUS EEE Pad Transformer II is on the way this fall....well.....that's food for thought.



I remember watching CNet's Buzz Out Loud a week or so ago and the topic that came up was a report that the iPad dominated the tablet market by some ridiculously high percentage. Donal Bell, the resident tablet reviewer, mused that he's gotta start giving out some better reviews. I don't think its bias, as a lot of the folks in tech world are getting tired of the guy in the black turtleneck and his tendency towards really crappy responses to issues ("just don't hold it that way"). the iPad just happens to be a pretty cool gizmo.

The challenge for other manufacturers is that beating the iPad in the hardware department means losing in the pricetag arena. Likewise, making a tablet OS that can outperform the iPad (especially in multitasking) means either a less responsive tablet, or a faster processor. The latter not only bumps up the price but also diminishes battery life, and is the main reason we won't be seeing a real Windows contender for at least a year.

And the (Apple) App Store? Man, that is the 800 lb. gorilla. The only reason I don't have an iPad right now is because the thing I mainly want to do with a tablet PC is read Marvel Digital Comics Online. 

High hopes for the Amazon tablet. They have enough sense to at least put a Micro SD slot in it, I'll bet. Maybe a real SD or micro USB, and on the high-end Hollywood they could swing a real USB. The thing that encourages me is that for Amazon, the hardware is not the endgame as it is with HP, Samsung, or Motorola. They want you to shop Amazon, and they're loaded enough to do a little loss-leading in order to ensure that.


----------



## falcarrion

Felon said:


> I remember watching CNet's Buzz Out Loud a week or so ago and the topic that came up was a report that the iPad dominated the tablet market by some ridiculously high percentage. Donal Bell, the resident tablet reviewer, mused that he's gotta start giving out some better reviews. I don't think its bias, as a lot of the folks in tech world are getting tired of the guy in the black turtleneck and his tendency towards really crappy responses to issues ("just don't hold it that way"). the iPad just happens to be a pretty cool gizmo.
> 
> The challenge for other manufacturers is that beating the iPad in the hardware department means losing in the pricetag arena. Likewise, making a tablet OS that can outpace the iPad (e.g. multitasking) means either a slower tablet, or a faster processor. The latter not only bumps up the price but also diminishes battery life, and is the main reason we won't be seeing a real Windows contender for at least a year.
> 
> And the (Apple) App Store? Man, that is the 800 lb. gorilla. The only reason I don't have an iPad right now is because the thing I mainly want to do with a tablet PC is read Marvel Digital Comics Online.
> 
> High hopes for the Amazon tablet. They have enough sense to at least put a Micro SD slot in it, I'll bet. Maybe a real SD or micro USB, and on the high-end Hollywood they could swing a real USB. The thing that encourages me is that for Amazon, the hardware is not the endgame as it is with HP, Samsung, or Motorola. They want you to shop Amazon, and they're loaded enough to do a little loss-leading in order to ensure that.




I know there is an offical Marvel comics Ipad app. but I'm not sure if thats what your looking for.
As for Android tablets. I don't think we will see one tablet selling as many as the Ipad2. There is going to be so many Android units to choose from. And if you add in the mid range and the low range. The numbers increase twice fold.
This will only lower the number of sales for brands.


----------



## Felon

falcarrion said:


> I know there is an offical Marvel comics Ipad app. but I'm not sure if thats what your looking for.
> As for Android tablets. I don't think we will see one tablet selling as many as the Ipad2. There is going to be so many Android units to choose from. And if you add in the mid range and the low range. The numbers increase twice fold.
> This will only lower the number of sales for brands.




The point I was covering isn't that the iPad is doing better than any one tablet. Rather, it's dominating the entire market at the 90% marker or better.

Which I'm fine with for the most part. I take pride that I buy products based on their actual merits, not their branding. 

I think we will reach a point where smartphones will be what cuts into the iPad market more than other tablets. As I mentioned a few posts ago, HTC is coming out with 4.7" screen Windows smartphone. That's a natural progression from the direction smartphones have been going (4.5 for the Inspire, 4.3 for Thunderbolt, Charge, and several others). Maybe Dell got ahead of themselves with the Streak.


----------



## falcarrion

I see the tablet market and the smartphone market as two different markets.
I don't see any unit with a screen size smaller than 7 being a threat in the tablet market. Right now market leans toward a big screen. From 9 to 10 seems to be the sweet spot for tablets.


----------



## Banshee16

Fast Learner said:


> A consistent complaint has been a lack of UI responsiveness, something you hear with many Android tablets and phones, too. It's one of the areas where the iPad really shines and you can see Apple's first-mover advantage: they had years to get that working really well.




Well.....that's kind of a loaded complaint.  The performance paradigm has been set by Apple obviously.  But one of the ways they do that is by making their UI *simple*.  I'm not sure it's even a UI.  IMO, descriptions of it being no more than a grid of icons do seem correct to me.

Many of the other tablets seem to be a little bit slower.  But.....they do *more* in some ways.  With some reviews, it seems that the reviewers will count slower speed against some of these other devices...but then turn around and and ignore the concept that those devices give other abilities.....true multitasking, widgets, etc. etc. 

I've tried many of these devices in any case, and these speed differences are very, very minor.  One thing I *have* noticed is that some of the Android devices seem to slow down over time, but then be faster after a reboot.

Banshee


----------



## falcarrion

The funny thing about the abilities of a tablet is its limits are set by the manufacturer. for example: the Ipad1 can't mirror it's display. but a jailbroken Ipad 1 can. The true potenial that these units can do is amazing. Basicly almost everything that Ios5 will bring this fall can be done now with a jail broken ipad.


----------



## Banshee16

falcarrion said:


> The funny thing about the abilities of a tablet is its limits are set by the manufacturer. for example: the Ipad1 can't mirror it's display. but a jailbroken Ipad 1 can. The true potenial that these units can do is amazing. Basicly almost everything that Ios5 will bring this fall can be done now with a jail broken ipad.




Do people with iPad 2's and iPhone 4's get to upgrade to the new OS?

I didn't think that the next OS was going to be a big change.  I thought it was just a bunch of minor tweaks.

Banshee


----------



## falcarrion

According to the Apple website. iOS5 will include more than 200 new features for your iPad, iPhone or iPod touch.
iOS5 is compatible with:
iphone 3gs
iphone 4
ipod touch 3rd gen
ipod touch 4th gen
ipad
ipad 2


----------



## Fast Learner

Banshee16 said:


> Well.....that's kind of a loaded complaint.  The performance paradigm has been set by Apple obviously.  But one of the ways they do that is by making their UI *simple*.  I'm not sure it's even a UI.  IMO, descriptions of it being no more than a grid of icons do seem correct to me.



You're conflating "UI system" with "app launching system". 

The iOS UI framework -- not Springboard, its app launcher -- is called Cocoa Touch, and it handles all of the drawing, scrolling, keyboard stuff, gesture recognition, etc. (it handles the non-visible stuff, too) of _every_ app. The same is true of the Android OS UI system and HP's WebOS UI system.

An easy example of the kind of sluggishness/sloppiness you see in reviews is a simple drag test. Pick an app that has something that can be scrolled across the screen, like a web page or a list of items. Place your finger on the draggable thing near the bottom of the screen and drag your finger to the top, stopping before you leave the screen area. On iOS whatever you placed your finger on when you started dragging will still be precisely under your finger up at the top, but on other tablets your finger will have "slipped" ahead of the content. 

Similarly if you tap on a buttons in the various OSes, whatever UI thing the button does to acknowledge your touch -- light up, animate to appear to press into the screen, whatever -- will happen instantaneously on iOS but often has a delay on other OSes. Now mind you, the delay is usually measured in tenths of a second, but it's just enough that it doesn't quite feel like you're touching a physical button.

I'm not fanboy-claiming that iOS is the end-all and be-all, I'm just explaining how things can feel sluggish in a touch OS regardless of the processors and such. Apple was able to polish and refine that whole interface for years before releasing the first iPhone and even more years before releasing the iPad. I'm sure that Android will come up to that same level given sufficient time, but in the meantime app use simply doesn't feel as snappy on competing tablets.

Of note, Windows Phone 7 is probably the closest to iOS in terms of feeling snappy, but that's no surprise in that Microsoft has also had a bunch of years to work on it.


----------



## Fast Learner

Felon said:


> The only reason I don't have an iPad right now is because the thing I mainly want to do with a tablet PC is read Marvel Digital Comics Online.



As falcarrion noted, Marvel has a truly excellent iPad app called, unsurprisingly, *Marvel Comics*. 

I really, really like it, it's a joy to use, and reads the same comics as you get on your PC. I highly recommend finding someone with an iPad and having them download it to show you -- it comes with a dozen or so free comics (which change periodically) so you'll be able to get a real feel for it.

The app brought comics back into my life again, for which I'm thankful.


----------



## Relique du Madde

Banshee16 said:


> I've tried many of these devices in any case, and these speed differences are very, very minor.  One thing I *have* noticed is that some of the Android devices seem to slow down over time, but then be faster after a reboot.
> 
> Banshee




That's a biproduct of multitasking.  Essentially the android is saving each process it's running into memory and it might not actually be getting rid of all that data when you close apps unless you kill the process or do a clean reboot.


----------



## Felon

falcarrion said:


> I see the tablet market and the smartphone market as two different markets.
> I don't see any unit with a screen size smaller than 7 being a threat in the tablet market. Right now market leans toward a big screen. From 9 to 10 seems to be the sweet spot for tablets.



I ask you: what market? What trend? There is no market, no sweet spot. The singular success--and thus the only one that can be threatened--is the iPad. One example is not a basis for a pattern.

Rather, the patterns to be seen take place at a broader level, with consumers showing increasing interest in some form of portable computing, be it tablet, netbook, smartphone, a "smart" ereader, or some other classification of device that can come in a variety of shapes and sizes. To dismiss "units" with a screen smaller than 7 inches as being a threat is a mistake, because even the iPad is dwarfed by the number of increasingly-powerful devices being carried around in millions of pants pockets. The only such an argument can be validated is to show how the average consumer would not find overlap between what they use a 10-inch tablet for and what they use their smartphone for.

For most people, we're talking about phone calls, email, unintensive web browsing, multimedia entertainment, and social networking.


----------



## Felon

Fast Learner said:


> As falcarrion noted, Marvel has a truly excellent iPad app called, unsurprisingly, *Marvel Comics*.
> 
> I really, really like it, it's a joy to use, and reads the same comics as you get on your PC. I highly recommend finding someone with an iPad and having them download it to show you -- it comes with a dozen or so free comics (which change periodically) so you'll be able to get a real feel for it.
> 
> The app brought comics back into my life again, for which I'm thankful.



Indeed, Comixology has produced something mighty fine, both with their native comic reader app and the various skins they've come up with for Marvel and DC. If my iPhone had a larger screen, I'd be indulging regularly.

However, Marvel Digital Comics Unlimited is a separate kettle of fish. Instead of paying $2 per issue, users pay a $5/mo. subscription fee to access thousands of comics. If that sounds like an amazing deal, that's because it is. 

Unfortunately, it doesn't travel well. The way the comics were scanned for the MDCU is apparently incompatible with viewing in Comixology's app.


----------



## Felon

Relique du Madde said:


> That's a biproduct of multitasking.  Essentially the android is saving each process it's running into memory and it might not actually be getting rid of all that data when you close apps unless you kill the process or do a clean reboot.



This is all the continuation of a topic that's been around a long time. Windows is often criticized as the ultimate resource hog, and the response to that is that it hogs resources because it is primed for the user to be doing tons of stuff at once. There is certainly always a trade-off to be made between flexibility and performance. And with portable devices, there's the additional factor of power consumption. There's no perfect beast, so it's up to each consumer to prioritize for themselves.

Of course, this is contrary to the facade that Apple wishes to project. When a company declares their devices to be "magical", one should be skeptical, not enthralled. Bad consumers.


----------



## falcarrion

Felon said:


> I ask you: what market? What trend? There is no market, no sweet spot. The singular success--and thus the only one that can be threatened--is the iPad. One example is not a basis for a pattern.
> 
> Rather, the patterns to be seen take place at a broader level, with consumers showing increasing interest in some form of portable computing, be it tablet, netbook, smartphone, a "smart" ereader, or some other classification of device that can come in a variety of shapes and sizes. To dismiss "units" with a screen smaller than 7 inches as being a threat is a mistake, because even the iPad is dwarfed by the number of increasingly-powerful devices being carried around in millions of pants pockets. The only such an argument can be validated is to show how the average consumer would not find overlap between what they use a 10-inch tablet for and what they use their smartphone for.
> 
> For most people, we're talking about phone calls, email, unintensive web browsing, multimedia entertainment, and social networking.




I disagree there is a tablet market. You only have to type in tablet market in google to see that there is one. When your selling millions of untis a quarter thats a market. when the manufacturers state the are jumping into the tablet market. thats a market. The tablet market has been around for years. but it was the ipad that has brought this market to the fore front.

As for the screen size you even state that reading on a small screen can be very difficult. the bigger the screen the better. But being to big then the portability becomes a problem. But this could change  once samsungs flexable amoled comes to market. Then it will be quite possable we will see bigger screens that fold. check out the demo for it from the ces2011.


----------



## Fast Learner

Felon said:


> Of course, this is contrary to the facade that Apple wishes to project. When a company declares their devices to be "magical", one should be skeptical, not enthralled. Bad consumers.



I wondered how long it would be before someone dragged up that ridiculous argument here again.

It sure explains why the iPad sells like crazy and its "powerful" competitors don't and haven't for a decade. If you don't like it, it's gotta be a matter of brainwashing, marketing, "iSheep", etc. Can't possibly be because it's actually a better thing.


----------



## Relique du Madde

Fast Learner said:


> I wondered how long it would be before someone dragged up that ridiculous argument here again.
> 
> It sure explains why the iPad sells like crazy and its "powerful" competitors don't and haven't for a decade. If you don't like it, it's gotta be a matter of brainwashing, marketing, "iSheep", etc. Can't possibly be because it's actually a better thing.




I think the point he's trying to get at is that Apple acts as if the world is filled with complete idiots to the point that instead of having some of the message be the "WHY" and the "HOW" the system, much of the info we recieve comes in the form of marketing catchphrases and Orwellian double-speak.


----------



## falcarrion

quick note:
AE has there game apps on sale for the 4th of July in the Apple app store.
.99 great price for some of there games.


----------



## Felon

falcarrion said:


> As for the screen size you even state that reading on a small screen can be very difficult. the bigger the screen the better. But being to big then the portability becomes a problem. But this could change  once samsungs flexable amoled comes to market. Then it will be quite possable we will see bigger screens that fold. check out the demo for it from the ces2011.



Small screen by current standards is < 4". The iPhone is 3.8". Oh, and my vision is not great, so I'm not a good consumer model in that respect.



Fast Learner said:


> I wondered how long it would be before someone dragged up that ridiculous argument here again.
> 
> It sure explains why the iPad sells like crazy and its "powerful" competitors don't and haven't for a decade. If you don't like it, it's gotta be a matter of brainwashing, marketing, "iSheep", etc. Can't possibly be because it's actually a better thing.



Did I mention that I own an iPhone? I'm certain I did. That's because it was the better product at the time, and once we actually hear what the heck is in the iPhone 5, I may very well go for an upgrade. Heck, when I was in Manhattan last month, the glass-capped Apple Store was my second or third stop. Kind of lame, because some security jerks were hassling everyone who came near the structure without moving straight to the doors. Far be it that someone have a picture taken standing next to it. Might shatter.

I'm pretty even-handed when it comes to acknowledging Apple's innovations and great service, but I'm also painfully aware of their inadequacies and shinanegans. Hyperbole is common in marketing, but outright describing your product as magical is talking down to your customer. "Look! Shiny! Smooth! Neat things happen when you poke this or swipe your finger that way!" If anyone regards Apple loyalists as an unsavvy pack of hipster sheep, it's Apple. What is Apple's depiction of a Microsoft loyalist in their commercials? Some four-eyed nerd who spouts techno-babble. Tell me, Fast Learner, are you just as incensed at their shameless generalization?

It's pretty obvious that there is a very strong level of unwaivering loyalty towards the Apple brand, and to its loyalists the flaws of Apple products simply...aren't. For instance, the iPhone has been falling behind the smartphone pack on numerous features (multi-tasking, camera, processor, and then there's the whole Flash thing), and even the iPad's follow-ups coughed a camera before the iPad 2 came out. When Apple finally does incorporate a feature, it's regarded as a revolution rather than a johnny-come-lately. 

In short, Apple's popularity has become something that exists is in spite of where their product features stand compared to the competition. These days, their big edge in the features department is that they have the best third-party support for their app stores. Apple's brick-and-mortar (and, er, glass) stores are constantly crowded not because of the love of Apple technology, but rather a desire to be seen someplace deemed hip.


----------



## Felon

Took about twelve minutes to get this far using safari, but I just couldn't resist...

Sent from iPhone


----------



## Alan Shutko

Banshee16 said:


> Many of the other tablets seem to be a little bit slower.  But.....they do *more* in some ways.  With some reviews, it seems that the reviewers will count slower speed against some of these other devices...




Not entirely. iOS does have an advantage over Android in terms of UI latency, and it's not just due to a lack of features.

iPads have hardware accelerated graphics for most of their animations and transitions. That's the advantage of having control over your hardware platform. Android devices before Honeycomb do the UI completely on the CPU. 

Honeycomb devices do have hardware UI acceleration but it seems that it's still not as polished as it is on iOS. Which isn't surprising: it's brand new instead of 4 years old and Android has to support a wider variety of hardware than Apple does.  That's where the first-mover advantage comes in.  But of course, first mover isn't insurmountable.

Android reviews, and the WebOS reviews that have just come out, generally get a lot of credit for their platform and features, but a lot of that is just potential until enough apps come out to satisfy the majority of users. 

And on price, the problem for competitors is that Apple has done very well at sourcing components in huge volumes (often paying in advance) and getting good deals on them, so they can market the iPad at prices that are hard to beat. Right now, competitors can market as being cheaper (but lower quality hardware), good hardware but a smaller app store and worse for general users, or good hardware and great platform for hobbyists or specific niches.


----------



## Fast Learner

Felon said:


> Hyperbole is common in marketing, but outright describing your product as magical is talking down to your customer. "Look! Shiny! Smooth! Neat things happen when you poke this or swipe your finger that way!"



See, I don't agree that it's talking down. When I got my first iPhone two years ago I hadn't touched a Mac in a decade, far from some Apple fanboy, using PCs exclusively and programming for Windows Mobile. Playing with the iPhone was pretty slick and I decided I wanted to get involved with making apps, etc.

When the iPad came out, however, it was more than pretty slick, it was... see, there's no good word here. The experience was unlike anything I'd ever had: the device seemed to _become_ the app that was running. I was holding Wikipedia in my hand, rubbing the red eye out of the photo of my daughter I was holding, etc. To me, in a way the iPhone only approached but never reached, the iPad would -- magically -- transform. 

So when Apple marketing said "magical," I got it. It was magic, or as close to I've experienced firsthand. If they called it "amazing" or "unbelievably cool" or "unlike anything you've experienced before" they would have been right, but the word "magical" was much closer to my experience and more concisely effective at describing it. That super-responsive UI I described earlier was a big part of the magic, and I suspect it has a very strong subconscious affect on how people react to the iPad vs other tablets.

You can discount it as "neat things happening when you poke or swipe", and I understand that may be all you've experienced. But me, it really was magical, and it didn't require drinking any Kool-Aid or becoming a sheep or being brainwashed. It wasn't hyperbole, it was the best word for the experience.



> If anyone regards Apple loyalists as an unsavvy pack of hipster sheep, it's Apple. What is Apple's depiction of a Microsoft loyalist in their commercials? Some four-eyed nerd who spouts techno-babble. Tell me, Fast Learner, are you just as incensed at their shameless generalization?



I thought Hodgman was hilarious and Justin Long came across as smarmy. I also completely identified with all of the problems "the PC" was describing: it was my everyday computing life. So no, I was not incensed.



> For instance, the iPhone has been falling behind the smartphone pack on numerous features (multi-tasking, camera, processor, and then there's the whole Flash thing), and even the iPad's follow-ups coughed a camera before the iPad 2 came out. When Apple finally does incorporate a feature, it's regarded as a revolution rather than a johnny-come-lately.



Not uncommonly because when Apple finally does incorporate the feature, they do it incredibly well, usually better than what their competitors had put together. That's even Apple's internal thinking: release a feature when it's really good, not to ensure their product gets a checkmark on a feature list. The rest of the time they pioneer an all new trail that everyone else scrambles after, coming out with half-finished bad copies an an attempt to get into the market. 

That's certainly the model of a company I'd prefer to run, rather than the company that announces "our processor is a bit faster (but otherwise this sucks)" or "you can have true multitasking (as long as you don't mind manually ensuring you don't leave anything running that makes it impossible to use your device)" or "it's totally open, you can run anything you want (including malware and software that can secretively grab your voice mail and email and such)".



> In short, Apple's popularity has become something that exists is in spite of where their product features stand compared to the competition. These days, their big edge in the features department is that they have the best third-party support for their app stores. Apple's brick-and-mortar (and, er, glass) stores are constantly crowded not because of the love of Apple technology, but rather a desire to be seen someplace deemed hip.



I understand you feel that way, that you disparage people who go in to check out the shiny stuff, that they must be there to seem cool. That doesn't mean it's their actual motivation.


----------



## falcarrion

Felon said:


> It's pretty obvious that there is a very strong level of unwaivering loyalty towards the Apple brand, and to its loyalists the flaws of Apple products simply...aren't. For instance, the iPhone has been falling behind the smartphone pack on numerous features (multi-tasking, camera, processor, and then there's the whole Flash thing), and even the iPad's follow-ups coughed a camera before the iPad 2 came out. When Apple finally does incorporate a feature, it's regarded as a revolution rather than a johnny-come-lately.




your remarks about loyalists is exactly what we have been trying to avoid on this thread. We come here to talk, discuss, and learn about tablets. no matter who makes it. Not rip on how any company promotes or sells there products.


----------



## Felon

falcarrion said:


> your remarks about loyalists is exactly what we have been trying to avoid on this thread. We come here to talk, discuss, and learn about tablets. no matter who makes it. Not rip on how any company promotes or sells there products.



I respect your desire for civlity, but you are directing your finger-waggling in the wrong direction.

My minor musing about "magical" technology triggered a rather testy barb from Fast Learner, as if he had been personally provoked. Which he wasn't. The response was totally disproportionate and is certainly where the "loyalist embargo" was violated, not my use of the word "loyalist" which came later. Moreover, his most-recent follow-up has been as unabashedly partisan as it gets, full of gushing about the wonderfulness of Apple and some MS-bashing thrown in at the end for good mearsure. All of which I note you have chosen to let go unchided, which strikes me as peculiar. 

If you're going to act as arbiter in a discussion, allow me to offer some advice as I have to engage in this kind of social engineering frequently. A pretty basic rule of the game is to avoid singling out one side of a disagreement for rebuke, because it creates the appearance that you're vindicating the other side. Just tell all sides to chill out and make them feel a little silly for getting all worked up. It takes two to tango.

As I said, I actually do avail myself of both Apple and MS products and judge each product on its own merits rather than sweeping generalizations that evidence an overall bias. If it makes you feel better, I've nary an intention of rebutting FL's last point. If he wants to drop it, I'm fine with that. The entire gist of my posts have been that everything is a trade-off, there is no magical perfection, everybody has weaknesses, and we'd all be better off if everyone could accept that rather than attempt to impose topic embargos.


----------



## Banshee16

falcarrion said:


> According to the Apple website. iOS5 will include more than 200 new features for your iPad, iPhone or iPod touch.
> iOS5 is compatible with:
> iphone 3gs
> iphone 4
> ipod touch 3rd gen
> ipod touch 4th gen
> ipad
> ipad 2




My main fear would be if the upgrade process would have the same issues as were experienced by iPhone 3GS users who upgraded to IOS 4.  Many of them had significant problems, particularly with speed etc.

Banshee


----------



## Felon

I've been around that mulberry bush. Any massive upgrade has a certain margin of failure. You can just backup your device in iTunes before running the upgrade, and restore if anything goes awry.


----------



## Banshee16

Fast Learner said:


> You're conflating "UI system" with "app launching system".
> 
> The iOS UI framework -- not Springboard, its app launcher -- is called Cocoa Touch, and it handles all of the drawing, scrolling, keyboard stuff, gesture recognition, etc. (it handles the non-visible stuff, too) of _every_ app. The same is true of the Android OS UI system and HP's WebOS UI system.
> 
> An easy example of the kind of sluggishness/sloppiness you see in reviews is a simple drag test. Pick an app that has something that can be scrolled across the screen, like a web page or a list of items. Place your finger on the draggable thing near the bottom of the screen and drag your finger to the top, stopping before you leave the screen area. On iOS whatever you placed your finger on when you started dragging will still be precisely under your finger up at the top, but on other tablets your finger will have "slipped" ahead of the content.
> 
> Similarly if you tap on a buttons in the various OSes, whatever UI thing the button does to acknowledge your touch -- light up, animate to appear to press into the screen, whatever -- will happen instantaneously on iOS but often has a delay on other OSes. Now mind you, the delay is usually measured in tenths of a second, but it's just enough that it doesn't quite feel like you're touching a physical button.
> 
> I'm not fanboy-claiming that iOS is the end-all and be-all, I'm just explaining how things can feel sluggish in a touch OS regardless of the processors and such. Apple was able to polish and refine that whole interface for years before releasing the first iPhone and even more years before releasing the iPad. I'm sure that Android will come up to that same level given sufficient time, but in the meantime app use simply doesn't feel as snappy on competing tablets.
> 
> Of note, Windows Phone 7 is probably the closest to iOS in terms of feeling snappy, but that's no surprise in that Microsoft has also had a bunch of years to work on it.




That's a good explanation.  Maybe I'm just not observant enough....I don't know.  But I haven't really seen it when I'm at the store.  I *have* seen a little lag with some Android devices when moving stuff around.  HOWEVER those Android devices were doing stuff with their CPU at the time that the IOS devices can't.....pull live/animated content, and showing it on the desktop via widgets, using animated backgrounds etc.  So, I *did* notice things were a little more laggy.....but once I looked at base Honeycomb devices that didn't have a bunch of widgets, and weren't using an animated background, the differences vanished.  That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.  Just make sure to compare apples to apples.  Sometimes I think the difference in what some of those Android devices are doing gets forgotten when doing comparisons.

The new Windows Mango demos look pretty cool.  I won't be able to look at them for another year or two though, as I'm in a contract for my iPhone.

Incidentally, regarding my wife's iPhone, I *did* find a software issue that wasn't pleasant.  When I hooked her new iPhone to her PC to restore it, and get the songs, contacts etc. the first thing iTunes did was back up the phone....taking all those blank settings and overwriting the backup from her old phone (thus deleting all her contacts).

That's when I researched and found that iTunes only keeps *one* backup, and continuously overwrites the last backup.

Apple tech support and Rogers were unable to help.  Thankfully, Microsoft *doesn't* only keep one backup, and though Apple only had the one backup, I was able to restore Microsoft's backup of the directory of folders that happened to contain the Apple backup, and restore it that way.

Seems like poor software design to me.  In any case, it took tinkering, and investigation, but I got lucky, and was able to get that info back.

Back to the tablets.....I'm not saying Android is perfect.  I've experienced force closes when trying stuff out.  However, my iPhone crashes also...both the entire device *and* individual apps.....Apple just doesn't give you an error message, so the average user doesn't realize what just happened.  A little like how Toyota helps generate a reputation for their cars being most reliable, by doing things like fixing things without telling the owner, when the owner brings the car in for regular servicing.

I *have* found some of the Android tablets to be slow and sluggish when I test them.  But if I reboot them, when they come back online, they'll be nice and snappy again.  I'm not sure why that is.  Another customer in the store crashed something?  A memory leak?  A problem with the OS?  I don't know.

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16

Felon said:


> I've been around that mulberry bush. Any massive upgrade has a certain margin of failure. You can just backup your device in iTunes before running the upgrade, and restore if anything goes awry.




This is a question....not a criticism.

*Can* you do a restore, if you've upgraded the OS?  I *thought* that I'd read that once owners did the upgrade to IOS 4, they weren't able to revert to IOS 3, short of jailbreaking their device, if they ran into problems? 

Is this not the case?

Banshee


----------



## catsclaw227

Jeez... been readin'.

Seems like we're all on just another magic carpet ride.


----------



## Banshee16

Relique du Madde said:


> That's a biproduct of multitasking.  Essentially the android is saving each process it's running into memory and it might not actually be getting rid of all that data when you close apps unless you kill the process or do a clean reboot.




Hmmm....that explains it.  The Android multitasking is actually a little weird, IMO.  Thankfully, in 3.1, they added the ability for the multitasking windows to be able to scroll, and to be able to multitask between more than 5 applications.

Those are good changes.

However......I'm not quite sure why, but Google hasn't given the user the ability to close applications via that panel.  Do you even get that ability deeper in the menu system (this I don't know).

Even Apple, whose multitasking I don't like, lets users close things down.

The best multitasking on a tablet that I've seen so far is with the Blackberry Playbook.  Scrolling panels, much easier to access than in iOS, and true ability for apps to be running in the background, with the ability for the user to easily close them down.

But your explanation at least explains why the slowdown occurs.  Hopefully in an upcoming update, Google gives the ability to close applications via the multitasking panel.

I've heard, however, that Honeycomb 3.3, which is coming out shortly, will be the last major update until Ice Cream Sandwich comes out this fall.  And I wonder.....will the existing Android tablets continue to be updated at that point?  Or will support for them be dropped once the next gen Android tablets start hitting the street.

This is one thing I really want to see out of the tablet market, before making a decision on which to buy.  Confirmation that devices will be supported for their lifespan...not just for a few updates after I bought them.  With Windows, I know patches and updates will come out for *years*..usually for at least the length of time that it takes me to go through one or two product purchase cycles (usually 2-3 years for a desktop machine).

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16

Felon said:


> This is all the continuation of a topic that's been around a long time. Windows is often criticized as the ultimate resource hog, and the response to that is that it hogs resources because it is primed for the user to be doing tons of stuff at once. There is certainly always a trade-off to be made between flexibility and performance. And with portable devices, there's the additional factor of power consumption. There's no perfect beast, so it's up to each consumer to prioritize for themselves.
> 
> Of course, this is contrary to the facade that Apple wishes to project. When a company declares their devices to be "magical", one should be skeptical, not enthralled. Bad consumers.




This is a good point, and an example of how *I* am as a user.  When I'm working, I have two monitors....sometimes two monitors connected to my desktop, and then a laptop beside me.  I might have Firefox (with 10-15 tabs open), IE (with a few tabs open), a sandbox program for emulating different programs, MS Office (with 5-6 documents open), MS Excel (with 3 spreadsheets open), and a few other things, all running simultaneously.  It's just how I work, I guess.

Something that couldn't support that just wouldn't really meet my needs.

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16

falcarrion said:


> I disagree there is a tablet market. You only have to type in tablet market in google to see that there is one. When your selling millions of untis a quarter thats a market. when the manufacturers state the are jumping into the tablet market. thats a market. The tablet market has been around for years. but it was the ipad that has brought this market to the fore front.
> 
> As for the screen size you even state that reading on a small screen can be very difficult. the bigger the screen the better. But being to big then the portability becomes a problem. But this could change  once samsungs flexable amoled comes to market. Then it will be quite possable we will see bigger screens that fold. check out the demo for it from the ces2011.




There already is.......Canadian researchers designed a wearable, bendable screen.  You'll be able to have a screen on something almost as thing as a piece of paper, with all the processor components being contained in the "spine".  I don't think we're very far from seeing this type of thing start to appear.

Banshee


----------



## falcarrion

Felon said:


> I respect your desire for civlity, but you are directing your finger-waggling in the wrong direction.
> 
> My minor musing about "magical" technology triggered a rather testy barb from Fast Learner, as if he had been personally provoked. Which he wasn't. The response was totally disproportionate and is certainly where the "loyalist embargo" was violated, not my use of the word "loyalist" which came later. Moreover, his most-recent follow-up has been as unabashedly partisan as it gets, full of gushing about the wonderfulness of Apple and some MS-bashing thrown in at the end for good mearsure. All of which I note you have chosen to let go unchided, which strikes me as peculiar.
> 
> If you're going to act as arbiter in a discussion, allow me to offer some advice as I have to engage in this kind of social engineering frequently. A pretty basic rule of the game is to avoid singling out one side of a disagreement for rebuke, because it creates the appearance that you're vindicating the other side. Just tell all sides to chill out and make them feel a little silly for getting all worked up. It takes two to tango.
> 
> As I said, I actually do avail myself of both Apple and MS products and judge each product on its own merits rather than sweeping generalizations that evidence an overall bias. If it makes you feel better, I've nary an intention of rebutting FL's last point. If he wants to drop it, I'm fine with that. The entire gist of my posts have been that everything is a trade-off, there is no magical perfection, everybody has weaknesses, and we'd all be better off if everyone could accept that rather than attempt to impose topic embargos.




My finger- wagging comes from my mothers side.


----------



## Alan Shutko

Banshee16 said:


> This is one thing I really want to see out of the tablet market, before making a decision on which to buy.  Confirmation that devices will be supported for their lifespan...not just for a few updates after I bought them.




The best gauge of that right now is the frequency of updates by manufacturer. The updates they issue for tablets is likely to be similar to what they currently release for phones. As of that article, HTC was the clear winner, but things may have changed since then.  I didn't look hard enough to find a new article.

Apple's currently doing the best at supporting older devices, but they have fewer models to support, and still only release updates two generations back.  That's ok for phones where many people upgrade every two years, but tablets seem to have a longer lifespan.


----------



## Relique du Madde

I would like to see the gingerbread comparison cause that one should be abysmal across the board.  Atleast everyone is doing well in the pre-Icecream honeycomb catagories.


----------



## falcarrion

I have read today that Samsung has dropped their countersuit against Apple.
I wonder how that will effect the galaxy 10.1.


----------



## Banshee16

falcarrion said:


> I have read today that Samsung has dropped their countersuit against Apple.
> I wonder how that will effect the galaxy 10.1.





I read a little different....that Samsung dropped two of the patents it was complaining about and added another four.

Samsung to Apple: We’re not copying, we’re competing - SlashGear

Banshee


----------



## Plane Sailing

Felon said:


> I've been around that mulberry bush. Any massive upgrade has a certain margin of failure. You can just backup your device in iTunes before running the upgrade, and restore if anything goes awry.




Apparently this won't be the case with iOS 5, unfortunately.


----------



## Janx

I assume the people in the apple store in the mall are there to look at the stuff, or get their tech problem looked at.  The kind of people who are being somewhere to be seen, already have an iPhone with the bigger G.B.s and are probably at a place that serves martinis or something.  Like New York city.

I don't pay close attention to Apple's ads, though the mac v. PC ones were funny.  I assume that if they're using words like "magical" that they are talking to your mom.  yes.  Your mom.  The one who isn't a technical mastermind.  Who a decade ago, couldn't program the VCR.

is the iPad magical?  Beats me.  While I was giddy that my employers gave me one as a present, I wasn't wholly sure of what to use it for.  I have an iPhone.  I have laptops (all my computers are laptops and I store everything on a NAS).  The iPad sort of sits in that middle niche of do I need to bring it if I have a laptop and an iPhone.

Generally, I leave my iPad at home when I go out.  My iPhone fits in my pocket (because nobody makes a bloody belt case for a properly armored iphone4).  So I'm covered for looking stuff up and wasting time.

But when I'm at home, I'll use my iPad instead of my iPhone on the couch.  It is lighter, yet bigger.  Couple an iPad with a keyboard, and I wonder if a kid needs a computer to do their homework.

Now one of my other friends, while he teased me about my iPad and love of iThings (despite him being a Mac user and me a PC), went absolutely apeshit over his iPad.  He docks it in his car, etc.

Something else one of the F dudes implied, was that they would consider switching from iThing to Android, or vice versa.  Do people really treat their platform investments that way?

I invested in ithing when the iPod Touch G1 for my wife.  We been iThing ever since.  We got buttloads of apps and music from the iTunes store.  Switching means abandoning that investment, and the investment I've made in technology to manage iTunes over network, etc.

I could go into NerdRage about the little things Apple didn't do right on the iThing, but I suspect I'll have the comparable complaints about Android.  I just don't see how folks who are on one platform can just hop to another based on some impulse.


----------



## falcarrion

Banshee16 said:


> I read a little different....that Samsung dropped two of the patents it was complaining about and added another four.
> 
> Samsung to Apple: We’re not copying, we’re competing - SlashGear
> 
> Banshee




It is intresting how fast the story changes on the Apple vs Samsung lawsuit.
Here is the article I had read.
Bloomberg: Samsung drops US lawsuit against Apple | TUAW - The Unofficial Apple Weblog


----------



## Relique du Madde

I thought they decided to drop itbthen add it to Apple's suit as their defense.


----------



## Relique du Madde

This is a totally random note.  I just noticed randomy discovered that my stock android news app is aggregating several random EnWorld threads.  I have no idea when or how I subscribed to them since they don't appear on my google reader but instead only in my Android News App.


----------



## falcarrion

It is interesting how companies use these lawsuits as bargining chips. To change contracts, get access to patents, etc..  Now we only know what we can read or info we can find on the internet. The real chess game  is done behind closed doors. Back room deals that we will never know of or hear about.


----------



## falcarrion

Incase anyone is interested here is the link to the Lenovo IdeaPad user guide.
IdeaPad Tablet K1 - Contents


----------



## falcarrion

Here is a website some of you might like.
Netbooknews - Netbooks, Netbook Reviews, Smartbooks and more


----------



## Banshee16

Janx said:


> I could go into NerdRage about the little things Apple didn't do right on the iThing, but I suspect I'll have the comparable complaints about Android.  I just don't see how folks who are on one platform can just hop to another based on some impulse.




It's really quite easy.  Of course, everyone will have different reasons.

You could say that someone put money into one device, so they should stay with that type of device.  Or, you could consider that some people might find that they're not satisfied with aspects of the idevices, and don't want to "throw good money after bad" and further cement the decision.

That's where I'm at, I know.  I mean, my iPhone 4 is ok, and cool with some things, but completely unsatisfactory with others.  So why invest in more devices based on technology I'm already dissatisfied with?

Different people will make their own decisions, but I'd like to think that when you're talking about buying $600 devices, most people won't be making simple spur of the moment decisions.

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16

Plane Sailing said:


> Apparently this won't be the case with iOS 5, unfortunately.




Last summer, there were lots of posts by people who updated their iPhone 3GS to IOS 4, and found that the hardware on the 3GS was insufficient to run the new OS satisfactorily.  Their devices got a fair bit slower.  And when they tried to reverse the upgrade it was not easy to do at all.

That's one thing I worry about, with upgrading to IOS 5.

Banshee


----------



## Fast Learner

Banshee16 said:


> Last summer, there were lots of posts by people who updated their iPhone 3GS to IOS 4, and found that the hardware on the 3GS was insufficient to run the new OS satisfactorily.  Their devices got a fair bit slower.  And when they tried to reverse the upgrade it was not easy to do at all.



It wasn't people with the 3GS, it was people with the 3G. The 3GS runs fine with iOS 4, and the 3G runs fine now, but it took 4.1 before the problems were resolved.

The 3G has 128MB of RAM, which just wasn't enough for 4.0. The 3GS has 256MB of RAM and was fine.

With iOS 5 it's likely that the 3GS will be the one that may have some trouble, or at least be somewhat limited. The iPhone 4 has 512MB of RAM and a 1GHz processor, compared to the 256MB of RAM and 600MHz processor of the 3GS. 

The iPad 1 also has only 256MB of RAM, so it's possible it may be somewhat limited by iOS 5, too, though I wouldn't count either of them out until the final code is actually released.


----------



## Alan Shutko

FWIW, the iPad 1 has no problems with iOS 5 (beyond the usual set of bugs in the beta).


----------



## Alan Shutko

Janx said:


> `
> I could go into NerdRage about the little things Apple didn't do right on the iThing, but I suspect I'll have the comparable complaints about Android.  I just don't see how folks who are on one platform can just hop to another based on some impulse.




I think it depends a lot on how much you buy into the platform.

If you're a Mac user who syncs everything with Address Book, iCal, Safari, iTunes, etc you might not switch. If you use the Google apps for everything, it's a lot easier to switch.  

One interesting blog is from a guy who switched to Android so he could see for himself what the differences are. My Dinner With Android


----------



## Janx

Fast Learner said:


> It wasn't people with the 3GS, it was people with the 3G. The 3GS runs fine with iOS 4, and the 3G runs fine now, but it took 4.1 before the problems were resolved.
> .




yeah, my 3g dang near cratered when iOS4 came out.  It was pretty bad.

Even now, the missus complains about her 3gs getting slow, but she's up for an upgrade and is just waiting for the 5 to come out and a the right deal to show up (like the trade-in I got from radioshack on my 3g for a 4).

[MENTION=17379]alan[/MENTION], I'l have to read that article.  that concept is one of the many reasons I got an Android for my work phone.  To better inform my opinion when folks ask me tech questions and "what's better".


----------



## Janx

something I'm pondering, is how much does system mastery, and feature usage plays into favoritism for iOS vs. Android?

Obviously I'm going to prefer what I know and use.

But in reading that blog Alan linked to, the guy is mentioning stuff that has not come up for me.  Apps I don't use or even heard of.

I don't twitter.  I like the email app on iThing for getting my gmail just fine.  I use Google Sync so my contacts, etc are linked to my gmail online and my iThings (thus iCloud doing that for me would actually not be useful).

I use Safari for my basic web browsing (mainly reading google news' sci/tech column),

I use facebook and Tapatalk for Enworld.

I use the Maps app on my iPhone for navigation (though I hate that it doesn't auto-scroll and it goes to sleep if you don't touch it).

Thats about it.  On my Android, I check my work email, make calls.  I rarely use the browser, unless an email has a link or an attachment (then I use the default thing that reads word docs, etc).

I under-utilize my android, partly because its a work device, so I don't like putting my personal stuff on it, if I ever had to turn it in.  Also because I don't NEED to put that stuff on, when my other pocket holds my iPhone.

And I struggle with contact management on Android, because its hard getting to the add to existing contact vs. add a new contact interface.  It's also a pain looking up a person, as there's no scroll-o-dex on the side to pick a letter.  That's a case of system mastery, I haven't so I'm not comfortable.

Because the Android store is so open, I'm wary of software from it.  I don't trust that nobody vets this stuff, so I'm taking a risk installing it on my device.

So, does most of the stuff tech folks harp about on these platforms really matter?  Does the average user (your mom?) run into these things as problems or even considerations?


----------



## Relique du Madde

Janx said:


> System mastery




I think it's more a question of being too LAZY to learn how to use the system. ("What iHaveToThink?") But even then some things are simple if you just think about it.

For instance your contact management issue.

You don't have a "scroll-o-dex" YET when you press the menu button you can enter into the search screen which gives you a search box.

Say you type in "T" the results will bring you every contact which has a "T" at the beginning of the word.  (This may seem like a fail, however its searching through each contact name field and nicknamfor words that start with a T).


I agree that adding a contact on an android to existing contact is a pain since that that dialog only seems to appear when you get a message or something from someone new.  This tends to force you into linking contacts which is essentially the same thing BUT allows you to separate things later (since it saves each contact profile under one profile).  Generally if I have the time I like going into Google and manually edit my contact list, which unfortunately you can't do from the gmail app for some unknown reason.


----------



## Fast Learner

Relique du Madde said:


> I think it's more a question of being too LAZY to learn how to use the system. ("What iHaveToThink?") But even then some things are simple if you just think about it.



One man's "lazy" is another man's "shouldn't have to waste time figuring it out".


----------



## Janx

Fast Learner said:


> One man's "lazy" is another man's "shouldn't have to waste time figuring it out".




Pretty much.  Sure I'm lazy. Because I already figured out one system, and the other system isn't the same so all my expectations are off, which makes it harder to read the mind of the developer.

That stupid Menu button tricks me all the time, because that's where the "stuff" is that I'm ultimately struggling with getting the app to do because it wasn't on screen.

Now the back/return button, I find myself trying to phantom click that on my iPhone now...

I'm just glad the buttons are physical buttons on my DroidX.  A friend came over with his android thing, that had a smooth touch sensitive buttons.  There's absolutely no way to hit the right button without looking at it (I suppose thru habit you can guess well), but with out physical features, you lose the home row effect of being able to easily control it blind.  It's the same reason touch screen keyboards suck compared to physical ones.

I was watching a documentary about Macintosh on Netflix the other night.  The Mac user made a point about how he felt that Windows masters got something out of being able to spout technical jargon, which would then make normal users feel dumb.  That's System Mastery at work, and the psychological effect that one gets from having mastered something, over those who haven't. (granted, I get lost looking at the latest Mac's UI and trying to switch applications).


----------



## Banshee16

Janx said:


> I was watching a documentary about Macintosh on Netflix the other night.  The Mac user made a point about how he felt that Windows masters got something out of being able to spout technical jargon, which would then make normal users feel dumb.  That's System Mastery at work, and the psychological effect that one gets from having mastered something, over those who haven't. (granted, I get lost looking at the latest Mac's UI and trying to switch applications).




I read an article today claiming that the new MacOS is not nearly as usable as snow leopard, and may be Apple's "Vista".  Of course, it's early, and possibly not too late for that situation to be reversed.

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16

Fast Learner said:


> The 3G has 128MB of RAM, which just wasn't enough for 4.0. The 3GS has 256MB of RAM and was fine.




My mother has a 3rd gen iPod Touch.....is it likely it can be safely upgraded to iOS 4?  The use of 3 is limiting her from using several apps, but I've been hesitant to upgrade her.

Banshee


----------



## Alan Shutko

Banshee16 said:


> My mother has a 3rd gen iPod Touch.....is it likely it can be safely upgraded to iOS 4?




The 3rd Gen iPod Touch is equivalent to the iPhone 3GS and should be fine on both iOS 4 and 5.


----------



## falcarrion

Banshee16 said:


> My mother has a 3rd gen iPod Touch.....is it likely it can be safely upgraded to iOS 4?  The use of 3 is limiting her from using several apps, but I've been hesitant to upgrade her.
> 
> Banshee





About iOS 4.3.3 Software Update
 This update contains changes to the iOS crowd-sourced location database cache including:




Reduces the size of the cache   
No longer backs the cache up to iTunes 
Deletes the cache entirely when Location Services is turned off 




Products compatible with this software update:

• iPhone 4 (GSM model)

• iPhone 3GS

• iPad 2

• iPad

• iPod touch (4th generation)

• iPod touch (3rd generation)


This update is available via iTunes.

If it is a itouch 8g 3rd gen you will need to check in Itunes.


----------



## Banshee16

Janx said:


> So, does most of the stuff tech folks harp about on these platforms really matter?  Does the average user (your mom?) run into these things as problems or even considerations?




Make no mistake, Apple has plenty of security vulnerabilities.  Don't assume that just because they vet apps, that the device is necessarily more safe.

From PDF malware to apps improperly approved, there are issues.  Every computer device has them in one format or other.

Largely, it's a matter of choice,  Every device will have an appeal to *someone*.  And every device has things it does well and things it does not so well.

Overall, I would say *some* of the stuff tech people harp on matters.  You're right, if you don't use Twitter, why does it matter if your phone handles Twitter less well than another phone?  Where I get more concerns is regarding security issues.  Particularly if a manufacturer tries to encourage a climate of not worrying about that kind of thing.  One thing that concerns me with iPhone is the lack of a built in Firewall.  I don't even know if there's "an app for that" in the App Store.  My Blackberry had one, however, and it was one of the first things I activated upon initiating the device.

Of course, it's surprising the number of users who don't even have antivirus or firewall software on their computers.....so maybe average users don't care.

Banshee


----------



## Fast Learner

Banshee16 said:


> One thing that concerns me with iPhone is the lack of a built in Firewall.  I don't even know if there's "an app for that" in the App Store.  My Blackberry had one, however, and it was one of the first things I activated upon initiating the device.



The app sandbox serves, largely, as a firewall, at least to the system. An outside connection could damage an app, but not get to the system or the other apps.

To the same extent as a firewall, anyway, in that anything can have a vulnerability.


----------



## falcarrion

Banshee16 said:


> Make no mistake, Apple has plenty of security vulnerabilities.  Don't assume that just because they vet apps, that the device is necessarily more safe.
> 
> From PDF malware to apps improperly approved, there are issues.  Every computer device has them in one format or other.
> 
> Largely, it's a matter of choice,  Every device will have an appeal to *someone*.  And every device has things it does well and things it does not so well.
> 
> Overall, I would say *some* of the stuff tech people harp on matters.  You're right, if you don't use Twitter, why does it matter if your phone handles Twitter less well than another phone?  Where I get more concerns is regarding security issues.  Particularly if a manufacturer tries to encourage a climate of not worrying about that kind of thing.  One thing that concerns me with iPhone is the lack of a built in Firewall.  I don't even know if there's "an app for that" in the App Store.  My Blackberry had one, however, and it was one of the first things I activated upon initiating the device.
> 
> Of course, it's surprising the number of users who don't even have antivirus or firewall software on their computers.....so maybe average users don't care.
> 
> Banshee




It just comes down to how the customer plans to use it. If I buy an Iphone it is because it is a phone first, and because of the apps second. I see no need for a firewall at all. I wouldn't have anything on it that I would need a firewall for.


----------



## Janx

Fast Learner said:


> The app sandbox serves, largely, as a firewall, at least to the system. An outside connection could damage an app, but not get to the system or the other apps.
> 
> To the same extent as a firewall, anyway, in that anything can have a vulnerability.




The same concept applies to the paradigm used on the game consoles now, the hypervisor isolates the app from anything else.  Of course that's the same feature that makes it hard to shard data between apps.

A firewall itself would add network latency, consume already precious memory and technically add its own risk of vulnerability.

I'm not familiar with iOS's network stack, but it might even be possible the nature of how it consumes network resources makes extraneous traffic meaningless (other than DOS effects).

The more conventional reason a firewall exists is to block external access to all the various ports that 100s of processes are listening on on a Windows box.  If nothing is listening (and thereby reacting to a port) there's no risk on that front.  A mobile device has significantly fewer processes (and thereby open ports that need explicit blocking because they are just sittin around, waiting to give root access to the first connection that asks).

A firewall may do more that just negate access to ports, but thats one of its primary functions and as such, it may not be as applicable to a mobile device.

as to the sacred security of the App Store?  Once again Netflix documentaries comes to the rescue.  The film Freakonomics has a section on sumo wrestling.  It speaks of honne, the truth of things, and tatemae, the surface of things.  Just like the Japanese's 96% arrest rate on murders, the safety of the App Store is the tatemae.  What matters from a marketing perspective is that people feel that it is safer than the competitors.

But like the fact that most people don't deploy a firewall between their cable modem and their house, they're lucky if MS turns on the firewall in windows for them, and its amazing if they actually have a valid anti-virus running.  Let alone, with all that crap, I've still seen my rigs get infected.


----------



## Janx

Banshee16 said:


> I read an article today claiming that the new MacOS is not nearly as usable as snow leopard, and may be Apple's "Vista".  Of course, it's early, and possibly not too late for that situation to be reversed.
> 
> Banshee




Who knows.  I last really used a mac nearly 20 years ago.  So all the changes they made since then, it looks worlds different, and wasn't inherently obvious as to what was going on.

that effect is probably what normal people feel when they look at a windows screen (or a mac user looking at it).  Whats inherently obvious by one paradigm your used to, biases looking at another.

Still the scroll-o-dex is a bit better than having to click the menu button, then start typing to get to the T's.


----------



## Fast Learner

Banshee16 said:


> I read an article today claiming that the new MacOS is not nearly as usable as snow leopard, and may be Apple's "Vista".  Of course, it's early, and possibly not too late for that situation to be reversed.



Yeah, that was Gizmodo, who ever since they stole a prototype iPhone 4 and got into hot water over it -- and are no longer invited to Apple press events nor receive review copies of hardware or software from Apple -- have been on an anti-Apple tear. 

Not saying Lion is or is not great, that would be outside of my NDA. I've certainly heard many people who love it, though.


----------



## Banshee16

falcarrion said:


> It just comes down to how the customer plans to use it. If I buy an Iphone it is because it is a phone first, and because of the apps second. I see no need for a firewall at all. I wouldn't have anything on it that I would need a firewall for.




But this kind of stuff *should* matter.  Analysts generally say that the upcoming generations of viruses (virii?) will be depending on that kind of thinking.  Smartphones in the next generation, will be getting the computing power of current PS3 and XBox 360 consoles.  Even now, they're perfectly capable of being attacked.  And some of the issues analysts talk about now, with smart phones being infected by malware, then in turn infecting WiFi hotspots that they connect to, other other phones connected to those hotspots etc. it *is* an issue.

These aren't just dumb phones.  They've got an OS.  They've got computing power.  They can be hacked, and important information can be stolen.  This whole PDF vulnerability is rather scary.  The idea that someone remotely could have infected by phone via a file I accessed through the browser, and get control over my camera and mic, all files on the phone, and even listen in on my phone conversations is rather disturbing.

I'm not a network admin....but I see the importance behind security.  I regularly install patches and keep my software up to date (on my PCs).  I employ and use antivirus software regularly.  I back up my hard drive to external drives, so in the event of a failure, I don't lose everything.  I employ both firewall software and routers.  By no means do I think I'm invulnerable.  But, for a regular user, I like to think I'm a bit more aware than your average bear.

By comparison, certain phones don't seem nearly as well protected.  That is disturbing to me....particularly with the amount of activities the manufacturers encourage us to partake of with our phones.

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16

Janx said:


> Who knows.  I last really used a mac nearly 20 years ago.  So all the changes they made since then, it looks worlds different, and wasn't inherently obvious as to what was going on.
> 
> that effect is probably what normal people feel when they look at a windows screen (or a mac user looking at it).  Whats inherently obvious by one paradigm your used to, biases looking at another.
> 
> Still the scroll-o-dex is a bit better than having to click the menu button, then start typing to get to the T's.




I think this is referred to by a statement you made in an earlier post.  It depends on what you're used to.

Personally, I prefer to start typing the T's, to have the auto complete show me the options that start with a T.  Personally, I find it easier and faster than the scroll-o-dex.  Again, that's personal opinion.

Different people have different preferences for how interfaces work.  Apple *is* a master at making things simple....particularly for non-techies.  Of course, if I want to refer to the older generation, many of the older generation *still* find something like iTunes difficult to use.  It's taken multiple tries to get my mother to figure out how to use iTunes to populate her iPod Touch, and to download apps etc.  And she's not nontechnical.  She can program in Basic, COBOL, Turbo Pascal, and several other languages.....and she's what....61?

Personally, I think with Windows 7, Microsoft largely "got it right".  There are a few annoying flaws.....I've had a few things go wrong, resulting in neeting to restore the system from backup, and an upgrade of iTunes corrupted my Windows Installer Utility, necessitating that Windows be reinstalled from scratch, and I don't think any program should be able to mess up such a central part of the OS so severely.  But from security to interface, to help tools, I find this the best version of Windows I've seen.  I never thought I'd move off Windows XP, and avoided Vista like the plague, but this version really doesn't bother me.

On the tablet front, I'm thinking of taking a closer look at the EEE Pad Transformer from ASUS.  Seems like a pretty good value for the money.  It has pretty much everything the Toshiba Thrive has, but a better screen, but lacking a replaceable battery.  The one thing I hate about the prevalence of non-user replaceable batteries in the majority of these tablets is that the manufacturers are effectively building an enforced retirement schedule into these devices.  I tend to keep my iPhone plugged in 100% of the time, to maximize the amount of time it's kept charged, and lengthen the amount of time I have to worry about battery life reduction.......but the EEE Pad Transformer has a 3' long power cable.  I'd say that's the main flaw I can see.

It now being July, I'm not sure whether it's better to just go ahead and get the device now, or wait until these Kal-El Tegra 3 chips, that are supposed to be 5x as powerful come out.......but their availability is entirely conjecture at this point.  Devices are "rumored" to be coming out in October/November....but it could be March 2012 before they do, for all we know.

Of course, there's this rumoured iPad 2 HD they're talking about possibly coming out in September with the equivalent of a retina display.

Banshee


----------



## IronWolf

Banshee16 said:


> But this kind of stuff *should* matter.  Analysts generally say that the upcoming generations of viruses (virii?) will be depending on that kind of thinking.  Smartphones in the next generation, will be getting the computing power of current PS3 and XBox 360 consoles.  Even now, they're perfectly capable of being attacked.  And some of the issues analysts talk about now, with smart phones being infected by malware, then in turn infecting WiFi hotspots that they connect to, other other phones connected to those hotspots etc. it *is* an issue.




Do you have a link on these WiFi hotspots being infected? I am curious to read a little more about these scenarios.

Firewalls are needed if there are open ports on the phone. If the phone OS doesn't expose network ports during normal operation then the overhead of a firewall is not really needed as there are no listening services to exploit. Now with that said I have not port scanned an iPad yet to see what might be open.

Now in the future if more network services are used that rely on open, listening ports on the device then a firewall might kick up on the priority scale of need. Unless of course the port in question is one you would leave open even with a firewall in place.



			
				Banshee16 said:
			
		

> These aren't just dumb phones.  They've got an OS.  They've got computing power.  They can be hacked, and important information can be stolen.  This whole PDF vulnerability is rather scary.  The idea that someone remotely could have infected by phone via a file I accessed through the browser, and get control over my camera and mic, all files on the phone, and even listen in on my phone conversations is rather disturbing.




Yeah - the PDF vulns are lame and certainly something to be concerned about. And you are right that security does need to be considered as these phones continue to get more powerful and even more feature filled.


----------



## Banshee16

Fast Learner said:


> Yeah, that was Gizmodo, who ever since they stole a prototype iPhone 4 and got into hot water over it -- and are no longer invited to Apple press events nor receive review copies of hardware or software from Apple -- have been on an anti-Apple tear.
> 
> Not saying Lion is or is not great, that would be outside of my NDA. I've certainly heard many people who love it, though.




To be clear.....I was just reading the article, and unaware of Gizmodo's history with Apple.

However, if you Google "iOS lion" you don't just come across the Gizmodo article.  You find articles by Mac fans on Apple's own message boards, from half a year ago.....so it's apparent this isn't just Gizmodo trying to get a dig in.  

Now, a lot can change in half a year.

I won't be using it, so it doesn't bother me.  

I *am* a little concerned that both Apple and Microsoft (via Windows 8) seem intent on creating "one OS to rule them all" that would run across computers, phones, and tablets.  Those different formats of device have different characteristics and needs.  You need something simple and quick on battery sipping mobile devices.  But on a desktop or notebook computer?  Why go to that length of simplification?  Simplification always has a cost (ie. power/flexibility).  How far down that road do you want to go on someone's main computer?

That having been said, the one advantage a "one OS" approach has is that theoretically, you can buy programs on your desktop, and also have them run on your mobile device.  But.......isn't that what programs like Splashtop are for?  Use your desktop, which is connected directly to hydro, and has much more RAM and more powerful processors, handle all the heavy lifting, and you control it via screen sharing on your mobile device?

I'm not a believer in the idea that tablets are going to revolutionize computing by eliminating the need for desktops or notebooks.  I still believe they're a new category of device that can supplement the other forms of computer....but not replace it.  They *do* seem pretty useful....but I can't see doing all my computing on a tablet.  I just think the tablets seem preferable in terms of comfort, than a tiny little smartphone screen.

Trying writing a university paper on an iPad or Xoom.  It's something you just *need* a real keyboard for.  And not a tiny one like the Bluetooth keyboards, or the one on the EEE Pad Transformer...because that's effectively like trying to type that essay on a netbook.  Remember carpal tunnel?  There's a reason ergonomic keyboards are larger, with the wave format....the complete opposite of the ones done for tablets.

And given data bandwidth caps in many countries, I don't think that downloading everything from the Cloud is necessarily viable.

Aside from bandwidth issues, in my mind the Cloud is also a problem for other reasons.......such as that many (maybe a majority) of servers used for Cloud-based applications are based in the U.S.  Which makes the data on them subject to the Patriot Act right?  But that flies in the face of Canada's PIPEDA, which requires the security of all customer information gathered by companies, and establishes liability for protecting it.  I'm no lawyer, but it's something many of my clients have been concerned about, and have outright refused to allow data gathered by applications they use to be stored on American servers as a result.

So, is that really viable?  Hence, is expecting the demise of thumb drives and optical drives etc. realistic?  Seems to me, at least for the next few years, they'll still be needed.  Then there's the network issue.  Even on a T1 connection, and then on a 4 MBps ADSL connection (fastest I can get, unless I want data caps), DropBox *still* took about 15 hours to sync about a GB of image files I put online for one of my developers to access, with an imminent timeline, before he was able to start downloading them himself.  Now, that might have been network congestion, but in terms of reliability, to me, that's pretty poor.

With a 6 GB data package for my phone, I can't even imagine using Google Music (if it was available in Canada, which it isn't) to stream my music to multiple devices.  Similarly, I'm usually afraid of watching YouTube videos, downloading apps, or even listening to Slacker Radio (Pandora and Hulu also aren't available) unless I'm connected to a WiFi hotspot.  And at least here, the dominant players in the telecom industry are repeatedly trying to get caps installed.  Given retired execs from those companies run the regulatory body, they'll likely eventually get their way, in one form or another.

Banshee


----------



## Fast Learner

Banshee16 said:


> Apple *is* a master at making things simple....particularly for non-techies.  Of course, if I want to refer to the older generation, many of the older generation *still* find something like iTunes difficult to use.  It's taken multiple tries to get my mother to figure out how to use iTunes to populate her iPod Touch, and to download apps etc.  And she's not nontechnical.  She can program in Basic, COBOL, Turbo Pascal, and several other languages.....and she's what....61?



iTunes is Apple's redheaded stepchild and is, in my opinion, ridiculously difficult to use. It's my single most-hated piece of software on both my Macs and my Windows PCs. 

Apple should be ashamed of it, imo. It has so many things wrong with it: an unintuitive UI; if you want to play just one song _you have to make a playlist and put just that song in it_ (otherwise it will proceed to the next song automatically); organizing apps is a ridiculous hassle; it will stop downloading podcasts _you've subscribed to_ if you haven't listened to that particular podcast in a while; the "description" of a podcast is stored under the "Video" tab of the "Get Info" _modal_ dialog box, even if it's an audio podcast; determining whether you have app updates requires switching to the apps tab and clicking the tiny "check for updates" text link at the very bottom of the window; you can't sort your apps, music, podcasts, or any other list of information by the column headers; etc.

So very bad. iOS 5 and iCloud will take care of some of that, but it'll still be a lousy audio and video player, etc. Oof.

(Tell us what you really think, Fasty!)


----------



## Banshee16

IronWolf said:


> Do you have a link on these WiFi hotspots being infected? I am curious to read a little more about these scenarios.
> 
> Firewalls are needed if there are open ports on the phone. If the phone OS doesn't expose network ports during normal operation then the overhead of a firewall is not really needed as there are no listening services to exploit. Now with that said I have not port scanned an iPad yet to see what might be open.
> 
> Now in the future if more network services are used that rely on open, listening ports on the device then a firewall might kick up on the priority scale of need. Unless of course the port in question is one you would leave open even with a firewall in place.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah - the PDF vulns are lame and certainly something to be concerned about. And you are right that security does need to be considered as these phones continue to get more powerful and even more feature filled.




That's all I'm saying.

And I'm not saying that Apple products are the only ones needing protection.  The difference (that I see) is that it seems like Apple doesn't really encourage security awareness.  I've read articles that Apple has actually denied there being problems, when meanwhile customers were getting hit by an exploit.

RiM at the very least includes firewall software, and has built their reputation on the security measures they put in place in their devices.

I *did* find this article, listing open ports used by Apple devices (including iPhone 4).

Well known TCP and UDP ports used by Apple software products

Seems like a lot more than 1 open port.....though I'm not a networking expert, and I don't know if all of those are used by iOS 4, or just one or two of them.

I'll try to find that other article.  It was a conjecture piece by a consultant talking about security concerns regarding the newer generations of smartphones.  It wasn't pointing out (that I remember) a specific threat active in the wild.  So maybe it was a fluff piece.  I don't know.  I *do* know that most of the guys that I know in network security *have* expressed similar concerns with the security (or lack thereof) in mobile devices (and WiFi, period).

I think what becomes more of a concern is when you start seeing reports of potentially government-sponsored hacking and such, and the appearance of things like Stuxnet, which, from my understanding depended on a component that could infect things like thumbdrives, and then move from those thumb drives to the computers *inside* a nuclear installation, when inserted into computers inside the facility (since those computers weren't actually connected to the internet, due to security), one has to wonder if eventually smartphones could be used to perpetrate a really bad attack or infection somewhere.....virus infects server, is downloaded to smartphone, smartphone connects to network inside a secure facility (or is docked to a PC or whatever), and then passes the infection along.  I think that's the kind of nightmare scenario they're talking about.

The article referenced the idea that the more powerful processors, and greater memory on the newer devices could theoretically give one of these devices enough power that you could have a scenario where (for instance), a guy with an infected phone goes to a Starbucks for a coffee.  He has WiFi on.  He connects to Starbucks (since the same login credentials seem to be used at all locations), and his phone then infects the router, and/or infects the mobile devices of all other users connected to that hotspot at the time.  They then go their separate ways, infect their own home networks, infect other Starbucks locations, etc. etc. etc.

It was an article about a year ago.  Might be a little tricky to find, but I'll see what I can do.

Could a phone be used, theoretically, to launch DOS attacks, for instance?  Do they have enough computer power?

If they have a lower level of security than an AV protected, firewalled, router-protected PC, and they become more prevalent, then you've effectively got a rapidly growing population of devices with increasing computer power, but little security.  Seems to me, it would be a hacker's paradise.

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16

Fast Learner said:


> iTunes is Apple's redheaded stepchild and is, in my opinion, ridiculously difficult to use. It's my single most-hated piece of software on both my Macs and my Windows PCs.
> 
> Apple should be ashamed of it, imo. It has so many things wrong with it: an unintuitive UI; if you want to play just one song _you have to make a playlist and put just that song in it_ (otherwise it will proceed to the next song automatically); organizing apps is a ridiculous hassle; it will stop downloading podcasts _you've subscribed to_ if you haven't listened to that particular podcast in a while; the "description" of a podcast is stored under the "Video" tab of the "Get Info" _modal_ dialog box, even if it's an audio podcast; determining whether you have app updates requires switching to the apps tab and clicking the tiny "check for updates" text link at the very bottom of the window; you can't sort your apps, music, podcasts, or any other list of information by the column headers; etc.
> 
> So very bad. iOS 5 and iCloud will take care of some of that, but it'll still be a lousy audio and video player, etc. Oof.
> 
> (Tell us what you really think, Fasty!)




Yes.....I have to say, I'm not that impressed with it....and it's such a central piece of the puzzle for them.  I can admit that I'm a Windows/DOS person....part of my preference will be by virtue of having used them for so long.

But I *do* find iTunes almost needlessly convoluted.  Many Apple products I have used have seemed rather easy to work with (at least for simple stuff).  I can't say I'm a big fan of their version of Office.  My partner uses it on his Mac, and when he sends me a proposal we're working on, and I have to do work on my Windows based Office installation, there are definite compatibility issues.  Things go *way* slower than when I'm just working on a document, from start to finish, on a Windows machine.

The audio program I've generally liked the best was Zune, actually.  And I don't even *have* a Zune player.  The only reason I got to using it was because I have an XBox 360, but didn't have Windows Media Center on my last Windows install....so Zune is what is used for streaming to the 360.  I originally installed it just for that, but then started finding myself using it for just about everything media related.  To me, it just seemed easy to use, had a really pretty interface, and just worked.

Similarly, I'm not a fan of Windows Media Player.  In Windows 7 64 bit, it's got some definite bugs.  Next to iTunes, it's caused me more problems than any other piece of software on my computer.  There's this really annoying bug where, when you initiate media player (only in 64 bit, not 32 bit), when it prompts you to make it the default player of different media types, if you click one of the options to set it up, and do one wrong click, it automatically associates all media file formats to WMP, but then greys them out as options. Then, because they're greyed out, none of them play.  At all.  In any program.  I've had this happen to me like 5 times.  Then I've got to reinstall all my audio codecs, or, simpler, do a system restore from the night before.  But again, a program shouldn't have such a damaging bug.  It's not as bad as wrecking Windows Installer, but it's close.

I think my biggest issue with iTunes at this point is the whole backing up thing I referred to in an earlier post.  That was very frustrating.  My wife just started her mat leave, and all her clients were on that phone.  If we hadn't been able to get the older back up by re-syncing it to the old computer, she'd have been out of luck.  And, apparently all because I didn't pick an option correctly in a menu like 3 or 4 levels in.

There are some other weird things.  I have 3 profiles on my PC.  One for me (personal), one for my wife, and one for business/admin.  For whatever reason, even though it's the same install of iTunes, and the same account, songs and movies I've either ripped to iTunes, or purchased in the iTunes Store, or downloaded from my Blu-Ray digital copy disks onto my personal profile don't appear in my business/admin profile.....even though it's the same iTunes account.  It's silly.

And the licensing.  Because I have 3 profiles on this computer, any time I want to use a purchased song or movie on one of the profiles, it uses up 3 of my 5 device licenses....even though it's one physical machine used by me and my wife.  That's just stupid.  5 licenses should mean I can use it on my desktop, my laptop, my wife's laptop, her iphone, and my iphone.  That's my definition of separate devices.....not one desktop being counted as 3 devices because there are 3 user profiles.  It gets even more complicated than that at times, as my laptop has a personal profile and a work profile.....so it counts as 2 devices as well under this profile.

Banshee


----------



## IronWolf

Banshee16 said:


> And I'm not saying that Apple products are the only ones needing protection.  The difference (that I see) is that it seems like Apple doesn't really encourage security awareness.  I've read articles that Apple has actually denied there being problems, when meanwhile customers were getting hit by an exploit.




Yeah - I'm not sure many of the people in the game have factored security in too much, save for maybe RiM, though I know even their server software for enterprises has vulns reported.  It is sad to have seen Apple deny problems, though they did acknowledge them later. Frankly, a lot of companies should be taking a better look at security.



			
				Banshee16 said:
			
		

> I *did* find this article, listing open ports used by Apple devices (including iPhone 4).
> 
> Well known TCP and UDP ports used by Apple software products
> 
> Seems like a lot more than 1 open port.....though I'm not a networking expert, and I don't know if all of those are used by iOS 4, or just one or two of them.




I think that is just a list of potentially used ports not ones necessarily opened by default.

I did see one blog post that said there was one 'iPhone sync' port open nearly all the time and that other ports might open as an app is open and then close when it was closed.



			
				Banshee16 said:
			
		

> I'll try to find that other article.  It was a conjecture piece by a consultant talking about security concerns regarding the newer generations of smartphones.  It wasn't pointing out (that I remember) a specific threat active in the wild.  So maybe it was a fluff piece.  I don't know.  I *do* know that most of the guys that I know in network security *have* expressed similar concerns with the security (or lack thereof) in mobile devices (and WiFi, period).




Cool - I was curious how much was based on active threats or the theoretical. 



			
				Banshee16 said:
			
		

> Could a phone be used, theoretically, to launch DOS attacks, for instance?  Do they have enough computer power?
> 
> If they have a lower level of security than an AV protected, firewalled, router-protected PC, and they become more prevalent, then you've effectively got a rapidly growing population of devices with increasing computer power, but little security.  Seems to me, it would be a hacker's paradise.




I would imagine as the phones continue to grow in power they could be used in such a fashion. And yes, they might become a greater target in the future if attention isn't paid. I think Apple is relying on a controlled market place, sandbox nature of their apps and such for some of there security. Hard to say if that will be enough in the long run.


----------



## Banshee16

IronWolf said:


> Do you have a link on these WiFi hotspots being infected? I am curious to read a little more about these scenarios.




This is *NOT* the article I was referring to.....but it's using several examples from the other article I had mentioned, so they're likely including some of the same research articles in their references.

HowStuffWorks "How Cell-phone Viruses Work"

It doesn't talk about WiFi......but it does talk about viruses infecting Symbian devices and then passing from one device to another via Bluetooth and MMS.

One of the big problems is the number of OS'.  However, the market has changed since the article was written...bit bet Android and iOS make up a much more significant portion of the market than they used to.

I know it's easy to accidentally click on an unfamiliar MMS or text message.  And if malware were buried in a photo (for instance) embedded in the MMS, or maybe in a VCF file in a spam e-mail or something, I could imagine it being something easy for someone to do by accident.

One thing I don't understand is whether a virus could work for all Android phones for instance, or it it would be something like "all unpatched Android devices using Android 1.5 or earlier" etc. etc.  If it's the former, seems to me like it would be easier to write viruses than if it was more like the second scenario.

Banshee


----------



## Relique du Madde

I was going to mention something... but it was already mentioned.

Also, the a virua that uses smartphones to propogate already exists.  Luckily no government agency has decided to make an ultimate weapon out of it like stuxnet.


----------



## Banshee16

I was comparing the EEE Pad Transformer and Playbook tonight, and the Playbook's screen was sharper, and it actually seemed a little quicker than the EEE Pad.  I'm surprised the device does so poorly in reviews.

The weird thing is that on paper, pretty much all the Android tablets have higher resolution screens than the Playbook, but hold them next to each other, and the screen of the Playbook just blows them away in terms of sharpness.  I'm not sure if this is something related to drivers etc......but honestly, out of all the devices I've looked at, the Playbook seems to have the best screen of all of them...even better than the iPad 2.

I'm curious if the difference is due to software/driver differences?

Banshee


----------



## Felon

So, the Toshiba Thrive has arrived, and it looks like I'm going to b getting one unless I find a shoe dropping while I'm sifting through reviews.

Remember what I said was the one other thing besides Flash that a tablet has to have going for it? Sure you do. Ports, baby. HDMI? Check. USB? Mini AND standard. SD? Full-sized (which means your micro just needs an adapter, which should come with any self-respecting micro).

Oh, and can you say "removable battery"? There hasn't been a need to, but finally we got it.

I was holding out for Amazon's tablet, but scuttlebutt is that Apple screwed them by creating a run on the tablet component market as they slap together about 15 million iPad 3's.


----------



## Banshee16

Felon said:


> So, the Toshiba Thrive has arrived, and it looks like I'm going to b getting one unless I find a shoe dropping while I'm sifting through reviews.
> 
> Remember what I said was the one other thing besides Flash that a tablet has to have going for it? Sure you do. Ports, baby. HDMI? Check. USB? Mini AND standard. SD? Full-sized (which means your micro just needs an adapter, which should come with any self-respecting micro).
> 
> Oh, and can you say "removable battery"? There hasn't been a need to, but finally we got it.
> 
> I was holding out for Amazon's tablet, but scuttlebutt is that Apple screwed them by creating a run on the tablet component market as they slap together about 15 million iPad 3's.




I've been considering this one as well.  If I'm getting a gen 1 Android device, it's either this one or the EEE Pad Transformer.  The keyboard dock and battery life there are pretty impressive.

The Thrive *does* look cool.  I go to the gym enough that I don't care about 1.6 lbs   A more rubberized back to make it hold still, and all those ports?  Not bad.  And the replaceable battery is nice.  I get concerned about the fact that these batteries in these devices lose their ability to keep a charge.  I'm not a huge fan of buying stuff and throwing it out a year later.

I'm not sure why, but even though the device came out yesterday, there's only one review from a major tech site.

Here's a good review.

Toshiba Thrive Review - Android Tablet Reviews by MobileTechReview

Interesting...Lisa comments that yeah, it's bigger than most other tablets....but that's not necessarily a bad thing.  Instead of trying to copy the iPad 2, it goes its own way and focuses on meeting a different set of needs.

It's kind of nice that you could plug in a USB mouse and have it work....or a keyboard, or use it in conjunction with your digital camera, to view photos as you're taking them...or even plug it into a printer or portable hard drive.

Banshee


----------



## falcarrion

Felon said:


> I was holding out for Amazon's tablet, but scuttlebutt is that Apple screwed them by creating a run on the tablet component market as they slap together about 15 million iPad 3's.




According what I read Amazon has ordered 1.2 million touch panels for the third quarter. No where have I read that Apple has screwed amazon in any way.


----------



## Felon

falcarrion said:


> According what I read Amazon has ordered 1.2 million touch panels for the third quarter. No where have I read that Apple has screwed amazon in any way.



Well, you can't have looked all that hard. There's plenty of scuttlebutt to that effect.

Try googling for titles like "Apple iPad 2 chokes Amazon tablets". Or "Is Apple Buying Up All the Parts for Amazon's Tablet?" Or "Amazon Could Be Held Back By Apple". Those were three that popped in a quick search for me just now. Throw in TPK and Wintek as keywords if you're still hard-pressed somehow.

Amazon is struggling to manage 1.2 million in the face Apple's supposed 14 or 15 million unit order that Apple placed.


----------



## Felon

Banshee16 said:


> I've been considering this one as well.  If I'm
> I'm not sure why, but even though the device came out yesterday, there's only one review from a major tech site.
> 
> Here's a good review.
> 
> Toshiba Thrive Review - Android Tablet Reviews by MobileTechReview
> 
> Interesting...Lisa comments that yeah, it's bigger than most other tablets....but that's not necessarily a bad thing.  Instead of trying to copy the iPad 2, it goes its own way and focuses on meeting a different set of needs.
> 
> It's kind of nice that you could plug in a USB mouse and have it work....or a keyboard, or use it in conjunction with your digital camera, to view photos as you're taking them...or even plug it into a printer or portable hard drive.



Yeah, that's a good review. Here's one from CNet:

Toshiba Thrive AT105-T1032 Review - Watch CNET's Video Review

What caught my attention is that they gave it 4 stars, which they haven't done for a tablet since the iPad2.

So what I'm left wondering now is whether I should wait to see what will become of Amazon's tablet ambitions, and what Apple is cooking for the iPad3

On the basis of (mostly) apps alone, it's tempting to get the low-end iPad in addition to an Android tablet. Pretty self-indulgent though.


----------



## Alan Shutko

On the other hand, Amazon may have only ordered 1.2 mil because none of the iPad competitors has managed iPad volumes, and they don't want to be stuck with a bunch of unsellable stock.


----------



## Banshee16

falcarrion said:


> According what I read Amazon has ordered 1.2 million touch panels for the third quarter. No where have I read that Apple has screwed amazon in any way.




No more than they have any other manufacturer.  I remember reading articles about how Apple  has bought up as many supplies as they could for iPad development.....both to ensure their own access to components, but also to control pricing.

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16

Felon said:


> Yeah, that's a good review. Here's one from CNet:
> 
> Toshiba Thrive AT105-T1032 Review - Watch CNET's Video Review
> 
> What caught my attention is that they gave it 4 stars, which they haven't done for a tablet since the iPad2.
> 
> So what I'm left wondering now is whether I should wait to see what will become of Amazon's tablet ambitions, and what Apple is cooking for the iPad3
> 
> On the basis of (mostly) apps alone, it's tempting to get the low-end iPad in addition to an Android tablet. Pretty self-indulgent though.




The four stars is cool.....however....on his blog, Donald Bell apparently commented that they have to start giving higher reviews to some of the non Apple tablets.  It's possible that they realize they've been shaping opinions a little too much.

Guess we'll see.  I'm glad to see those numbers.

Some of the reviews I've noticed on Youtube, by regular consumers, have indicated that something with how Toshiba has tuned the device results in it functioning smoother than competing Android tablets, despite the fact that it shares the same CPU and amount of RAM.  Maybe the extra time Toshiba took to get it out the door indicates they've spent a longer time working on hardware drivers?

I *have* heard that the screen on the Thrive isn't as good.  More Xoom quality level in terms of brightness.  But that, screen aside, it it one of the top performers in Honeycomb tablets.

Now I'm not entirely sure what to do.  I just might have to wait until August when it arrives in Canada, so I can compare it to the EEE Pad Transformer.....but by that point, we'll be just a few months away from the 2nd gen devices.

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16

BTW, for those for whom the current lack of Hulu and Netflix apps on Android is a problem, I was reading some posts on user message boards, and I saw several users pointing out a relatively simple solution.  Keep your main PC or laptop on, and then use a desktop sharing program (both the EEE Pad Transformer and Thrive  have it, for free), and just connect to your desktop through the tablet, play your movie, and bang, there you go.  Apparently it'll play, no lag (assuming no lag on your network).

Banshee


----------



## falcarrion

Felon said:


> Well, you can't have looked all that hard. There's plenty of scuttlebutt to that effect.
> 
> Try googling for titles like "Apple iPad 2 chokes Amazon tablets". Or "Is Apple Buying Up All the Parts for Amazon's Tablet?" Or "Amazon Could Be Held Back By Apple". Those were three that popped in a quick search for me just now. Throw in TPK and Wintek as keywords if you're still hard-pressed somehow.
> 
> Amazon is struggling to manage 1.2 million in the face Apple's supposed 14 or 15 million unit order that Apple placed.




"According to the Taiwanese journal, touch panel makers are reluctant to commit themselves to Amazon tablets as Apple’s demand increased in the third quarter of 2011 fiscal year."  Thats not Apple screwing Amazon. But touch panel makers being reluctant.


----------



## Relique du Madde

Banshee16 said:


> BTW, for those for whom the current lack of Hulu and Netflix apps on Android is a problem, I was reading some posts on user message boards, and I saw several users pointing out a relatively simple solution.




What do you mean no Hulu on android?  My Droid II has it.... oh yeah.. .I forgot it's a "must be a hulu+ member" and a "select devices with DRM chips installed" deal.


----------



## Banshee16

Relique du Madde said:


> What do you mean no Hulu on android?  My Droid II has it.... oh yeah.. .I forgot it's a "must be a hulu+ member" and a "select devices with DRM chips installed" deal.




I'd settle for being a Hulu basic member, but they discriminate against Canadians 

As far as I understand it, there are no Hulu or Netflix apps yet for Android.  However.....I wonder if you could just use your browser, go to the website, login, and watch the movie?

Banshee


----------



## Relique du Madde

Banshee16 said:


> I'd settle for being a Hulu basic member, but they discriminate against Canadians
> 
> As far as I understand it, there are no Hulu or Netflix apps yet for Android.  However.....I wonder if you could just use your browser, go to the website, login, and watch the movie?
> 
> Banshee




Sadly, my xoom told me "This Video is not available on your platform."


I hope Google end up buying Hulu.


----------



## Felon

falcarrion said:


> "According to the Taiwanese journal, touch panel makers are reluctant to commit themselves to Amazon tablets as Apple’s demand increased in the third quarter of 2011 fiscal year."  Thats not Apple screwing Amazon. But touch panel makers being reluctant.




Sounds like hair-splitting to me.

"That's touch panel makers being reluctant" ....Because Apple created a run on the market. As a result of Apple's actions, Amazon's plans could be screwed.

Now, you can suggest that it's all dog-eat-dog, first-come-first-served, or that Amazon getting screwed was an utterly inadvertant result. Neither supposition has bearing on the hair you're trying to split.


----------



## Banshee16

Felon said:


> Coy much?
> 
> "That's touch panel makers being reluctant" ....Because Apple created a run on the market. As a result of Apple's actions, Amazon's plans could be screwed.




This is my understanding of matters.  And there were articles about this going on even before the Xoom was launched.

Seems a business strategy, rather than chance.

What else is going on?  Apple's suing pretty much everyone and their grandmother.

To be fair, I *did* come across people posting over at Android Central, mocking RiM, claiming their devices suck, and that QNX doesn't count, because they didn't make the OS...they just bought the company who did.

Seems to be memories are rather short.  Wasn't Android developed by a company called Android, which Google bought back in 2005?  If so, then Google didn't make their own OS either.

For that matter, did Apple?  Isn't their OS just a variant of Linux?

Banshee


----------



## Felon

Relique du Madde said:


> Sadly, my xoom told me "This Video is not available on your platform."
> 
> 
> I hope Google end up buying Hulu.



That would be the best outcome for both consumers and poor, beleaguered Hulu.

I remember seeing article last week that was entitled something like "Windows 8 could get Neftlix before Motorola Xoom".

Sorry to come into the conversation late, but you're trying to watch this on Chrome? Is that the browser on a Xoom?


----------



## Banshee16

Felon said:


> That would be the best outcome for both consumers and poor, beleaguered Hulu.
> 
> I remember seeing article last week that was entitled something like "Windows 8 could get Neftlix before Motorola Xoom".
> 
> Sorry to come into the conversation late, but you're trying to watch this on Chrome? Is that the browser on a Xoom?




That's the default browser, yes.  You can also get Dolphin HD, Firefox, and others.

One of the nice things I've learned about Android is that when you put new apps on it, you can change which are you default (like with Windows).  I purchased Mercury browser on my iPhone.  But I can't make it replace Safari, even though it's a far better browser.  So any time I click a link in an e-mail, calendar, or wherever, it automatically opens the page in Safari....then I have to copy the URL, close Safari, then open Mercury, and paste the URL.  It's a pain in the butt.

The discussion *was* about whether an Android device could access those sites via the browser, given the browser supports Flash, and there are no Hulu or Netflix apps yet, and the lack of Hulu and Netflix are commonly cited as reasons for not getting an Android tablet as opposed to an Apple tablet.

Seems to me the whole Splashtop or Logmein method might be the best option for now.  Supposedly there's finally some progress on getting Netflix, at least onto Android.  I think a few days ago the DRM on the chips used for the current Honeycomb tablets was finally approved for Netflix.

Banshee


----------



## Fast Learner

Banshee16 said:


> For that matter, did Apple?  Isn't their OS just a variant of Linux?



Mac OS X and iOS come from UNIX, long-ago predecessor to Linux.

On the component manufacturing front, Apple absolutely has been throwing their weight around: they're really good at business now. 

Before the iPad 1 was announced they used their cash to buy up both flash RAM and display production. Since then they've gone one step further: they actually finance the development of new manufacturing in exchange for exclusive access to the production for a set period of time.

Having $70 billion in cash gives you a _lot_ of influence.


----------



## Relique du Madde

Hulu works fine on my laptop's Chrome... it's just an some android fearing stupidity by hulu and the movie companies.

Seriously..  I watched  Baron Munchausen on crackle.com last friday using my Xoom, and Sucker Punch via Google Movies last Tuesday (?).  If the movie companies are so afraid of pirating via android then why aren't they cracking down on crackle?   Hulu need's to get it's act together and start evaluating based on what the movie companies are doing.


----------



## Felon

Banshee16 said:


> This is my understanding of matters.  And there were articles about this going on even before the Xoom was launched.
> 
> Seems a business strategy, rather than chance.
> Banshee



Here's my take on it.

If I reach into the toilet-paper dispenser and find nothing there because Joe used up the last few sqaures a couple of minutes earlier, then I might well think that Joe screwed me on the TP. That assertion is regardless of whether it was a result of malice aforethought or inadvertant self-interest (insomuch as he needed every scrap of remaining TP to conclude his business). Someone else could counter-argue that my interpretation is too harsh in drawing that conclusion, giving Joe the benefit of the doubt, and we could agree to see things differently. After all, they weren't the ones left waddling into the next stall with their pants around their ankles. 

Now, if Joe actually reached in the TP dispenser and liberally yanked out the last 10 yards of TP, I've got a lot stronger grounds for suggesting that he screwed me. There's a point where Joe's gotta know that his consumption level is going to impact others. It may be that Joe is selfish rather than malevolent, but self-serving, every-man-for-himself behavior can screw others over just as much as malevolent behavior.


----------



## falcarrion

Felon said:


> Touch panel makers being reluctant because Apple created a run on the market. As a result, Amazon is screwed.




Touch panel makers being reluctant because Apple has paid in cash up front and Amazon hasn't.
Touch panel makers being reluctant because Apple is a sure win win for them and  Amazon is not.
Touch panel makers being reluctant because Apple is a tastly fruit and Amazon is a river with piranha in it.

This is all speculation. No proof that it will happen. Lets keep to talking about tablets. Not what a company is doing to another.


----------



## Banshee16

Fast Learner said:


> Mac OS X and iOS come from UNIX, long-ago predecessor to Linux.
> 
> On the component manufacturing front, Apple absolutely has been throwing their weight around: they're really good at business now.
> 
> Before the iPad 1 was announced they used their cash to buy up both flash RAM and display production. Since then they've gone one step further: they actually finance the development of new manufacturing in exchange for exclusive access to the production for a set period of time.
> 
> Having $70 billion in cash gives you a _lot_ of influence.




That it does.  It's dirty pool....but it's still pool.

Oh well....I don't want to get too down on Apple.  This thread has remained civil so far.

Banshee


----------



## Felon

falcarrion said:


> This is all speculation. No proof that it will happen. Lets keep to talking about tablets. Not what a company is doing to another.



Not for nothing, but if you didn't want to talk about companies screwing each other, seems odd that you went out of your way to dispute my comment about Apple screwing Amazon.

Seems to me that pro-Apple fawning is called out for jeopardizing the impartial nature of this discussion, but criticizing them is. Case in point...


----------



## Felon

Fast Learner said:


> Mac OS X and iOS come from UNIX, long-ago predecessor to Linux.
> 
> On the component manufacturing front, Apple absolutely has been throwing their weight around: they're really good at business now.
> 
> Before the iPad 1 was announced they used their cash to buy up both flash RAM and display production. Since then they've gone one step further: they actually finance the development of new manufacturing in exchange for exclusive access to the production for a set period of time.
> 
> Having $70 billion in cash gives you a _lot_ of influence.



So, Apple is so good at business that they can bankroll anti-competitive tactics. Hmm. What is it we call it when other companies throw their weight around to keep others from getting their goods to market? It slips my mind, but it's not as flattering as "really good at business".


----------



## falcarrion

Felon said:


> Not for nothing, but if you didn't want to talk about companies screwing each other, seems odd that you went out of your way to dispute my comment about Apple screwing Amazon.
> 
> Seems to me that pro-Apple fawning is called out for jeopardizing the impartial nature of this discussion, but criticizing them is. Case in point...




Thats because when ever you come here you slam apple.
Not always directly. But you comments do show your disrepect for apple.
You may start off talking about tablets, but sooner or later you slam apple.


----------



## Banshee16

So, how about those Bruins?

Banshee


----------



## Fast Learner

Felon said:


> So, Apple is so good at business that they can bankroll anti-competitive tactics. Hmm. What is it we call it when other companies throw their weight around to keep others from getting their goods to market? It slips my mind, but it's not as flattering as "really good at business".



Please, what's the term you mean? Monopolistic? Predicting a future for parts due to your introducing a new product that you believe will be incredibly popular and that no one else believes has a chance isn't monopolistic, it's risky as heck and yes, good business if you turn out to be right.

If they continued to use their cash to keep anyone from buying any parts then it might be monopolistic (though that's debatable), but they wisely haven't and instead compete for production like anyone else. When it became clear that their portion of production wouldn't be sufficient to meet demand they funded companies to build parts for them that they've pre-purchased. Nothing stops any other company from doing the same, other than a lack of cash, and also isn't monopolistic.

Or do you mean some other word?


----------



## Felon

falcarrion said:


> Thats because when ever you come here you slam apple.
> Not always directly. But you comments do show your disrepect for apple.
> You may start off talking about tablets, but sooner or later you slam apple.



Your choice of certain words is noteworthy. "Show dIsrespect", for instance. Heaven forbid that I show disrespect towards a consumer technology corporation. If someone here consistently exhibited disrespect to to Microsoft, you'd be as quick to call them on it? 

What you calll "slamming" is actually objective criticism. Sooner or later, I do that to everyone and everything. To me, skepticism is among the highest virtues, particularly when it comes to being a consumer. I have indeed spoken about some bonehead moves by Apple's wannabe competitors. What's more, I've extolled Apple's virtues, stated plainly that I chose Apple's phone over the competition, and mentioned that I was tempted to buy an iPad even if I bought the Toshiba Thrive. So, I think I've displayed my objectivity pretty consistently, rendering your assessment unfair. 

The problem is a pervasive one. People are engrained to think in partisan terms, and that goes back to school days or rooting for sports teams. The wonderful thing about sports is that at the end of the season, the reset button gets mashed. That makes the loyal-to-the-bitter-end mentality harmless. 

In other matters, such as politics or consumerism, there is no reset button and the impacts are lasting. That distinction seems lost on most folks, making needless partisanship one of those great human failings. Self-interested skepticism is the rational course of behavior--if someone's consistently falling short of your expectations, and you're paying them, you shouldn't feel like a traitior for making them re-interview for their position--but in practice, it's usually misinterpreted as unremitting negativity.


----------



## falcarrion

I forgive you


----------



## Felon

So anyhoo, my boss came by with his Fujitsu Q550 and was showing it off to everybody. It's a Window 7 tablet that I had never heard of. It was okay, having USB and SD ports and an OS that renders the concept of an "app store" a tad callow. You want to run Netflix or Hulu in a browser? This'll do it.

However, at $900 for an Atom-powered 7-incher, that's more than a little overpriced. I tried out an ASUS EP121 for a few weeks, and that's got much better specs for only a couple hundred bucks more. OTOH, the reason I sent it back was the pathetic battery life (less than 3 hrs), and this Q550 will go for 7 or 8 hrs.


----------



## Banshee16

Felon said:


> So anyhoo, my boss came by with his Fujitsu Q550 and was showing it off to everybody. It's a Window 7 tablet that I had never heard of. It was okay, having USB and SD ports and an OS that renders the concept of an "app store" a tad callow. You want to run Netflix or Hulu in a browser? This'll do it.
> 
> However, at $900 for an Atom-powered 7-incher, that's more than a little overpriced. I tried out an ASUS EP121 for a few weeks, and that's got much better specs for only a couple hundred bucks more. OTOH, the reason I sent it back was the pathetic battery life (less than 3 hrs), and this Q550 will go for 7 or 8 hrs.




How did the Q550 function?  I've seen the Acer Windows tablet, and I'm not sure whether or not I like it.  I guess it just feels a little....odd.  However in terms of power, and sheer "what it can do", it seems to blow everything by Apple, Google, or RiM away.  It *is* expensive, though.  And I don't know what battery life on these suckers is like.

Banshee


----------



## Felon

Banshee16 said:


> How did the Q550 function?  I've seen the Acer Windows tablet, and I'm not sure whether or not I like it.  I guess it just feels a little....odd.  However in terms of power, and sheer "what it can do", it seems to blow everything by Apple, Google, or RiM away.  It *is* expensive, though.  And I don't know what battery life on these suckers is like.
> 
> Banshee



It performs like a Netbook (it's odd to me that we don't just naturally expect that to be the case). It can do browsing, light multimedia, that sort of thing. There's the usual trade-off where you gain multi-processing at the expense of overall performance. You have the standard burdens of a full-fledged Windows OS (updates and AV) that come as the price of being able to install and configure anything you want. Oh, and any brand of Windows is going to be murder on a battery. 

The Q550 came with a stylus and the touchscreen certainly has very litle trouble letting you take notes in One Note. But it's often apparent that Windows 7 isn't really built with touch-pperation in mind. You can't accomplish nearly as much with pinches and swipes, so you're always at a risk of miniximizing or closing a window that you're actually trying to maximize, because those three functions are within fractions of an inch from each other.

In general, I'd say hold for Windows 8. MS moves at an elephantine pace, but I think this one will be worth the wait.

(Now I suppose I'll sit back and see if I get chided for saying all those critical things; let the thumb-twiddling commence)


----------



## falcarrion

I forgive you


----------



## Felon

Banshee16 said:


> That's the default browser, yes.  You can also get Dolphin HD, Firefox, and others.
> 
> One of the nice things I've learned about Android is that when you put new apps on it, you can change which are you default (like with Windows).  I purchased Mercury browser on my iPhone.  But I can't make it replace Safari, even though it's a far better browser.  So any time I click a link in an e-mail, calendar, or wherever, it automatically opens the page in Safari....then I have to copy the URL, close Safari, then open Mercury, and paste the URL.  It's a pain in the butt.
> 
> The discussion *was* about whether an Android device could access those sites via the browser, given the browser supports Flash, and there are no Hulu or Netflix apps yet, and the lack of Hulu and Netflix are commonly cited as reasons for not getting an Android tablet as opposed to an Apple tablet.
> 
> Seems to me the whole Splashtop or Logmein method might be the best option for now.  Supposedly there's finally some progress on getting Netflix, at least onto Android.  I think a few days ago the DRM on the chips used for the current Honeycomb tablets was finally approved for Netflix.
> 
> Banshee



By the way, I forgot to ask if you've checked out PlayOn?
What's PlayOn? | PlayOn


----------



## Banshee16

Felon said:


> By the way, I forgot to ask if you've checked out PlayOn?
> What's PlayOn? | PlayOn




No, I haven't.....I wasn't aware of this program.  Thanks for pointing it out.  I'll give it a try.  When I googled it, I also found references to Ultrasurf and Hotspot Shield.

Hopefully one of these measures will work.

I'll let you know, once I've tried it out.

Banshee


----------



## falcarrion

check out this cheap tablet.
Easydy E88 – iPad 2 Look and Feel for under $100 | PadGadget


----------



## Felon

So, for those Android users out there, let me ask you about podcasts. 

In contemplating trading out for an Android device, I have to wonder how much I'm taking for granted from being an iPhone user. For all of iTunes usability challenges, the iTune stoe is a boon in that it provides centralized place to get content. Every Android device has its own approach to its marketplace. I have to wonder what content that marketplace offers. Apps, sure, but do they offer up subscribable podcasts, or would I start having to perform Google searches and downloading on my own?


----------



## Banshee16

Felon said:


> So, for those Android users out there, let me ask you about podasts.
> 
> In contemplating trading out for an Android device, I have to wonder how much I'm taking for granted from being an iPhone user. For all of iTunes usability challenges, the iTune stoe is a boon in that it provides centralized place to get content. Every Android device has its own approach to its marketplace. I have to wonder what content that marketplace offers. Apps, sure, but do they offer up subscribable podcasts, or would I start having to perform Google searches and downloading on my own?




I don't listen to podcasts often, but the Android Marketplace seems to have apps that allow you to subscribe to them.  Is that what you're looking for?

https://market.android.com/search?q=podcasts&so=1&c=apps

Note: I also don't have a tablet yet.  Just an iPhone 4.

Banshee


----------



## falcarrion

apple released the 3rd quarter sales for the ipad
9.25 million


----------



## Banshee16

falcarrion said:


> apple released the 3rd quarter sales for the ipad
> 9.25 million




Those are some big numbers!

I'm willing to bet during that period, Android devices in total sold only between $1-2M (including all models).  Of course, this is the first generation.

We'll see what happens over the next several months.  The resizing feature that's been added to Honeycomb 3.2 may help somewhat, with the perception of limited apps.

I think there are still only about 450 Honeycomb apps.  I found a list that seems to continually get updated here:

"Optimized For Honeycomb" Apps List

Of course, I've tried downloading a few items at the store when checking out units, and many apps that are *not* optimized for tablet actually expand and fill the screen correctly.

Regardless, Apple's got some impressive numbers.  It's going to be a challenge to pass them.  On one hand, the upcoming Kal-El chip looks to be powerful enough to really challenge Apple...but by then, the iPad 3 will be on the horizon, and it'll also be increased in power.  I'm sure that seeing the intent of OEMs to use the Tegra 3 chip for the next generation, Apple's going to be trying to put something equal or better into the next iPad.  Unless the focus of effort on this upgrade will be putting out a high res screen, to catch up with what the Android tablets are already doing.

I have to say....being able to plug USB devices into a tablet, and be able to do things like hook up an XBox 360 or Nintendo controller, and run an emulator and play older generation games on the tablet is actually rather neat.

I took a look at the HP Touchpad tonight, and I have to say.....I know RiM got a lot of ideas from WebOS for their own OS......but it looks to me like they did a better job of it than HP did.  The Playbook just feels more solid, more corporate, and the screen just blows that of the HP away.

Banshee


----------



## IronWolf

A couple of links for the Lenovo tablets from a slashdot article today:

Lenovo ThinkPad Tablet

Lenovo IdeaPad Tablet


----------



## Banshee16

Interestingly, with the Lenovo launch comes Netflix support for the Lenovo tablets.

However, apparently now that it's working on those tablets, it'll also work on the other Honeycomb tablets....Xoom, Galaxy Tab 10.1, EEE Pad Transformer, etc.

It just requires a bit of manual setup, until the app is updated again, with the other devices listed.

Here's the link:

Netflix 1.3 works on most Honeycomb tablets – here’s how to install it

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16

Interesting....no use in Canada, but good for those in the U.S.  Staples is running a $100 off coupon for all Android tablets except the Nook, until the end of July.

Staples giving $100 off select tablets, what will you be buying? | Android Central

Banshee


----------



## falcarrion

I now see that Levovo has 3 tablets coming out . 2 android and one windows 7.

http://www.technobuffalo.com/mobile...ablets-first-tablets-to-be-netflix-certified/


----------



## IronWolf

An Article from PC Mag:

Apple Loses Tablet OS Share in Q2, Android Picks it Up


----------



## Fast Learner

As usual with these articles, those numbers are number of iPads actually sold to people and the Android tablet numbers are the number shipped to stores. 

Based on Google's own number of tablets running their OS -- both the 3.x tablet OSes and the 2.x non-tablet OSes running on tablets -- that have been purchased by humans and are actually being used, the market share is currently 95.5% iPad and 4.5% Android.

It'll be fascinating to see the real sales numbers of Android tablets after a couple of quarters so the "correction" can be made in Samsung, etc.'s quarterly earnings reports, especially after Christmas, and especially now that Apple has finally caught up on iPad production.


----------



## falcarrion

Here is the same info in a different article.
iPad Maintains Lead In Global Tablet Shipment | PadGadget

It is intresting how the title of the article gives you a diffrent impresion.


----------



## falcarrion

and here is a third version of the same info.

Research Firm Claims iPad Only Has 61% of Tablet Market - Mac Rumors


----------



## JoeGKushner

The growth of the android operating system seems to be the sticking point.

iPad looks like, to me at least, it will 'always' be #1 individual unit but in terms of O/S that android will continue to catch up and perhaps surpass it although no individual single model will do the same.


----------



## falcarrion

JoeGKushner said:


> The growth of the android operating system seems to be the sticking point.
> 
> iPad looks like, to me at least, it will 'always' be #1 individual unit but in terms of O/S that android will continue to catch up and perhaps surpass it although no individual single model will do the same.




I agree that Android will grow in the percent of tablets sales. It seems every week now we see new tablets coming out. 
Even though I will not be able to go to Gencon. I would realy like to see how many people will be using tablets.


----------



## Banshee16

Almost feels like Mac vs. PC again....except it's iOS vs. Android.  The manner in which the market breaks down may go the same way this time, as there are a lot of parallels between Andoid and DOS/Windows.

Banshee


----------



## IronWolf

falcarrion said:


> I agree that Android will grow in the percent of tablets sales. It seems every week now we see new tablets coming out.
> Even though I will not be able to go to Gencon. I would realy like to see how many people will be using tablets.




I saw several at Origins when I was playing Pathfinder Society games. Books and paper still outnumbered tablet users, but I has at least one person at my table using an iPad to run his whole character and I had mine with some of the Pathfinder sourcebooks so I didn't have to lug the actual hardcover books to the con.


----------



## falcarrion

IronWolf said:


> I saw several at Origins when I was playing Pathfinder Society games. Books and paper still outnumbered tablet users, but I has at least one person at my table using an iPad to run his whole character and I had mine with some of the Pathfinder sourcebooks so I didn't have to lug the actual hardcover books to the con.




It may start out slow but the number of tablets being used by players and DM alike will grow. I have no doubt we will see some with Ipads, android and windows in one form or another, all at the same table. 

With aps like Goodreader which lets you open multiple pdfs at the same time will only make it easier to play or run games. For instant I have the version of the pathfinder core book that has the chapters as seperate pdfs, thus I can have various chapters open at the same time.


----------



## IronWolf

falcarrion said:


> It may start out slow but the number of tablets being used by players and DM alike will grow. I have no doubt we will see some with Ipads, android and windows in one form or another, all at the same table.




Oh I agree - I think we will see an increase even if it is just to read the PDFs conveniently at the table.



			
				falcarrion said:
			
		

> With aps like Goodreader which lets you open multiple pdfs at the same time will only make it easier to play or run games. For instant I have the version of the pathfinder core book that has the chapters as seperate pdfs, thus I can have various chapters open at the same time.




Yep - that GoodReader upgrade adding tabs was great. It made an already powerful PDF reader even more powerful. I'm loving the tabbed option.


----------



## falcarrion

I wonder if any company will be showing off any apps at Gencon?


----------



## falcarrion

So today I was checking out the Gencon website and noticed they had an app for the iphone, itouch, and ipad and decided to check it out. Well it is your typical Iphone app which can be enlarged for the Ipad. Ok but not that great. You can't look at it landscape. Thats a shame as the maps would have been more useful. and as far as I can tell it hasn't been updated from last year. Even though they do advertise it on the 2011 website. I down loaded the pdf map of the exibit map and it doesn't match the map on the app.
So right now it isn't of much use. Hopefully they will update it soon.


----------



## Alan Shutko

In theory, it was supposed to be updated in July. Unfortunately there is not a lot of time left.


----------



## falcarrion

Good news folks the app has been updated.
There is also an apk for Android you can get.


----------



## falcarrion

Well the rumors are hitting the boards again that Apple is going to be coming out with 3 HDTV's. With IOS 5 being able to mirror to the apple tv black box , and the odds being this tech will be in the HDTV's.  This will be the first tablet to broadcast directly to a TV without cables or add ons.Will these tv's include facetime? Will you be able to click on  facetime with your ipad upstairs and connect to the tv downstairs and be able to tell the kids it's time for bed? Or connect to it from work and check on the house and pets?


----------



## Kzach

falcarrion said:


> Well the rumors are hitting the boards again that Apple is going to be coming out with 3 HDTV's.




By a very unreliable source who's just trying to get hits on their website. Don't put any money on this bet.


----------



## Fast Learner

Baseless and a ridiculously bad business move. What would Apple add* to televisions that would make them worth super-high price points _in a market that's already flooded with super discount pricing_? I give this a less than 0.000000001% chance of happening.


*That's not already provided by the $99 Apple TV, that is.


----------



## falcarrion

Kzach said:


> By a very unreliable source who's just trying to get hits on their website. Don't put any money on this bet.




I don't know if MacRumors is concidered a reliable source but here is a link to the article.
Apple to Launch 3 HDTV Models by March 2012? - Mac Rumors


----------



## falcarrion

Fast Learner said:


> Baseless and a ridiculously bad business move. What would Apple add* to televisions that would make them worth super-high price points _in a market that's already flooded with super discount pricing_? I give this a less than 0.000000001% chance of happening.
> 
> 
> *That's not already provided by the $99 Apple TV, that is.




speaking of the apple tv black box here is some news you might be intrested in.
Apple TV Just Got A Huge New Update With TV Show Purchasing and iCloud Support | Cult of Mac


----------



## falcarrion

Fast Learner said:


> Baseless and a ridiculously bad business move. What would Apple add* to televisions that would make them worth super-high price points _in a market that's already flooded with super discount pricing_? I give this a less than 0.000000001% chance of happening.
> 
> 
> *That's not already provided by the $99 Apple TV, that is.




A mac mini, and a camera.


----------



## falcarrion

Here is an interesting article on tablets

One in Four Homes to Own Tablet, iPad Top Choice | PadGadget


----------



## Felon

Kzach said:


> By a very unreliable source who's just trying to get hits on their website. Don't put any money on this bet.



Way more than one website. Apparently, one Trip Chowdhry with Global Equities Research issued a note to his company's investors.

Don't fret too much. After all, if Apple actually does make this move, it'll spontaneously go from "ridiculous" to "brilliant move, well-played, sliced bread move over". 



Fast Learner said:


> Baseless and a ridiculously bad business move. What would Apple add* to televisions that would make them worth super-high price points _in a market that's already flooded with super discount pricing_? I give this a less than 0.000000001% chance of happening.



The computer market is likewise flooded with discount pricing, yet Apple can sell their desktop and laptops units at a significant markup over other rigs with similar specs. Granted, those specs are top of the line, but the fact remains that the Mac OS doesn't do more than other OS's. If anything, it's harder to find software for a Mac. Why should I buy an airbook rather than Sony or Samsung's airbookesque rival du jour? Becuase I'll garner more oohs and ahs when I whip out the airbook, that's why.


----------



## Kzach

falcarrion said:


> I don't know if MacRumors is concidered a reliable source but here is a link to the article.




Three things.

1) The origination of the rumour did not come from MacRumors.

2) I'd point to the name of the site: MacRUMORS.

3) No, MacRumors aren't very reliable


----------



## Fast Learner

falcarrion said:


> A mac mini, and a camera.




An iOS device plus an Apple TV (the $99 device, not these rumored displays) does that with more flexibility, I say.


----------



## Janx

Fast Learner said:


> An iOS device plus an Apple TV (the $99 device, not these rumored displays) does that with more flexibility, I say.




at this point, isn't an Apple TV basically an iOS device.  equivalent to an iPod Touch with the video going to the TV and no touch screen?

I would think by now, investing in TV set technology to be risky.  a lot of people have probably already upgraded to HDTV, and are not keen on yet another upgrade for 3d tv, or SomebodyOS built-in TV.

But then, I upgraded from my 20" RCA TV that was 20 years old to my 42" Sony Wega about 6 years ago.  I don't believe a TV should need replacing that often.

Instead, it's the hooked up devices that change.  it's a cheaper investment for me to buy an Apple TV for $99 than to go replace my still good big TV for a new big TV with Apple built-in.

though at this point, I'm not entirely sold on what Apple TV can do for me that my Xbox and PS3 can't or a cable from my iThing to my TV.  It's mainly the delta between what I already have vs. Apple TV.  If I didn't have all that stuff, the Apple TV's features are more compelling.


----------



## Janx

shifting the topic back to tablets a bit, what are all the connectivity options for hooking tablets to things?

For iPad:
Apple TV gives me wireless connection to my big TV
there's cables for VGA, component, hdmi at varying prices
a USB port (the camera adapter) that also does MIDI if your keyboard has a USB jack
Alesis has a full dock (marketed for garageband users) with midi, usb, XLR, 1/4", 1/8" and VGA jack
there's a few other MIDI adapters, and headphone jack adapters for guitars

I saw an GeekSquad commercial that happened to show an iPad doing AirPlay to a mini projector (I assumed thats what I was seeing).

are there any other doodads?  And what can the non-iOS tablets be hooked up to?

In the regular computer industry, the money is in the Options, so what are the Options out there?


----------



## falcarrion

Griffin has a stomp box

Griffin Stompbox -- a pedalboard for your virtual effects pedals | TUAW - The Unofficial Apple Weblog


----------



## falcarrion

Here is a charging station

AViiQ Portable Charging Station keeps your devices organized, charged (Updated) | TUAW - The Unofficial Apple Weblog


----------



## falcarrion

Samsung today anounced some accessories for there tablet.
Samsung reveals new Galaxy Tab 10.1 accessories: multimedia dock, HDTV adapter, case, and more -- Engadget


----------



## falcarrion

as an added note the apple camera kit has an usb adapter and a sd card adapter.


----------



## Felon

Janx said:


> shifting the topic back to tablets a bit, what are all the connectivity options for hooking tablets to things?
> 
> For iPad:
> Apple TV gives me wireless connection to my big TV
> there's cables for VGA, component, hdmi at varying prices
> a USB port (the camera adapter) that also does MIDI if your keyboard has a USB jack
> Alesis has a full dock (marketed for garageband users) with midi, usb, XLR, 1/4", 1/8" and VGA jack
> there's a few other MIDI adapters, and headphone jack adapters for guitars
> 
> I saw an GeekSquad commercial that happened to show an iPad doing AirPlay to a mini projector (I assumed thats what I was seeing).
> 
> are there any other doodads?  And what can the non-iOS tablets be hooked up to?



Well, when it comes to connectivity, your options are constrained if you aren't willing to accept a dongle, which is tatamount to trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. How many people want to carry around a thumb drive, an SD card, a tablet, and then some other doodad that acts a bridge?

If you get a Toshiba Thrive or the upcoming Lenovo ThinkPad tablet, you get built in USB, which combined with Android means the world is your oyster.


----------



## falcarrion

Here is an app some of you might like checking out.
iGM & The Cursed Town of Drummond presented by TableTTop Games | TabletTopGames

They are at gen con check them out.


----------



## catsclaw227

This is interesting, I wonder if it has any bearing on future android sales or end users personal selections:

http://www.mercurynews.com/top-stories/ci_18684398


----------



## Banshee16

Wow, that *is* big news.  It gives Google direct access to hardware manufacturing as well.

I wonder.....Motorola's CEO had talked about pursuing patent litigation against other Android manufacturers.  I would think this would be against Google's interest to pursue further.

It still wouldn't make me buy a Xoom.  As solid as the hardware is, the neglect shown to Canadian consumers does not allow me to feel faith in the support.

However, it makes me more comfortable with Android overall.

As such, I've now just purchased an ASUS EEE Pad Transformer 32 gb and keyboard dock, and am testing it out this morning.

Banshee


----------



## Relique du Madde

Banshee16 said:


> Wow, that *is* big news.  It gives Google direct access to hardware manufacturing as well.
> 
> I wonder.....Motorola's CEO had talked about pursuing patent litigation against other Android manufacturers.  I would think this would be against Google's interest to pursue further.
> 
> It still wouldn't make me buy a Xoom.  As solid as the hardware is, the neglect shown to Canadian consumers does not allow me to feel faith in the support.
> 
> However, it makes me more comfortable with Android overall.
> 
> As such, I've now just purchased an ASUS EEE Pad Transformer 32 gb and keyboard dock, and am testing it out this morning.
> 
> Banshee




I would have to say, I hope Google's acquisition causes there to be an improvement in Motorola's consumer support considering that they (motorola) slipped the the point of being just shy of Samsung's low point within certain markets and for certain devices.

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure it's going to be a wait and see considering that motorola now has become the official flag ship company.


----------



## Fast Learner

Banshee16 said:


> Wow, that *is* big news.  It gives Google direct access to hardware manufacturing as well.



Yeah. If I was Samsung or HTC, say, I'd be looking very seriously at Windows Phone 7 and WebOS opportunities. There's nothing like the company you license your OS from suddenly selling directly to consumers to create insane channel conflict.

How will devices from MMI (Motorola Mobility, the group that Google bought) not be considered "true" Android phones, with the rest being off-brand options? If you were HTC or Samsung, how could you possibly believe that you'd get info about Android plans even close to the same time as the folks in MMI? Etc.

I suspect this signals the peak of Android's market penetration; that doesn't mean I think Android will take a sudden dive, but I would bet this opens up great opportunities for WP7 & WebOS.



> I wonder.....Motorola's CEO had talked about pursuing patent litigation against other Android manufacturers.  I would think this would be against Google's interest to pursue further.



Right, that's not going to happen. It's now pretty widely believed among analysts that the CEO's announcement was a bargaining tactic, putting the pressure on Google to get the deal done at a price MMI would be happy with.


----------



## Banshee16

Relique du Madde said:


> I would have to say, I hope Google's acquisition causes there to be an improvement in Motorola's consumer support considering that they (motorola) slipped the the point of being just shy of Samsung's low point within certain markets and for certain devices.
> 
> Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure it's going to be a wait and see considering that motorola now has become the official flag ship company.




Personally, given how little being a Google Experience Device mttered for me as a consumer in Canada (ie. not at all) it doesn't bother me.  It might other the maufacturers though.  At the end of the day, what I care about is that the Xoom, outside of the U.S., is still on 3.0.  The Transformer is alreay on 3.2.

I'm not sure what Motorola expected would happen.  There ARE customers outside of the U.S. who don't want to feel like second class citizens.

I guess we'll see.  Until Microsoft can get their mobile OS to have similar speed and battery life, I don't think it will happen.  I'm not averse to Microsoft in the least..but their mobile tablets seem the most expensive, and with the shortest battery life.

I just typed this on the Transformer, with a wireless mouse from my laptop plugged in.

Banshee


----------



## Fast Learner

Wow, insane:

*Two Weeks Ago*: Woot puts the HP TouchPad up for a day at $120 off, sells *612*, pathetic by Woot status where items at that price and newness tend to sell thousands and Woot completely sells out its stock.

*Yesterday*: Best Buy lets leak that they were shipped 270,000 TouchPads seven weeks ago and thus far have *sold less than 25,000*, and that they want to return their entire stock.

*Today*: HP announces they're dumping all webOS hardware and will not be selling them in the future. (And for that matter, they're getting out of the computer and mobile hardware business altogether.)

That was crazy short, especially for a tablet that was getting significantly better reviews than most Android tablets.

Crazy times. As several wags have noted, it's not yet a "tablet market", it's an "iPad market". I hope someone comes along to change that, or at least make a significant dent. I love my iPad, but at the very least want competitors pushing Apple to not rest on their laurels.


----------



## Alan Shutko

My friend (an avid fan of webOS) had an interesting comment.  The white 64GB TouchPad was just announced for Europe today, and then we hear they're killing all their devices.  None of us expected that, especially since TouchPad has been getting pretty decent reviews.  (In the "Someone wouldn't buy this over an iPad, but it's getting closer" vein.)


----------



## JoeGKushner

Pretty crazy stuff there with HP.

I recently bought a Toshiba Thrive. I'm digging it. I am finding it allows me to actually enjoy reading PDF's of electronic books I have and I suspect that future purchases will probably be more carefully weighed in the future where before it was almost always a print purchase.

The ability to swap out my own battery and use USB, MicroSD, etc... is also sweet as I've already used it to carry around scenarios, art, PDF's, etc...

Still not Netflix though but thank god Adult Swim works right off the web as does Clone Wars off the Star Wars sight right off the web.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

Alan Shutko said:


> My friend (an avid fan of webOS) had an interesting comment.  The white 64GB TouchPad was just announced for Europe today, and then we hear they're killing all their devices.  None of us expected that, especially since TouchPad has been getting pretty decent reviews.  (In the "Someone wouldn't buy this over an iPad, but it's getting closer" vein.)




The HP poison "tablet" boggles me too.  I'm a Mac guy, and my first mobile device was a Palm Tungsten, which I loved (purchased in 2003 or so).  I just last month managed to rescue my files from it- it was dying- and now own an iTouch...which I love.  But that Palm was reliable, easy to use, and tough as Hell.  It took some killing to finally put it down.

Given my past experiences, I'd have thought HP, having purchased Palm's OS would be able to translate that into a serious challenger to the iPad.

And with me being in the market for a half-dozen+ tablets, I wanted to see some real competition for the iPad.  Not 'cause I dislike it, but because I like having real choices to make.


----------



## nedjer

Dannyalcatraz said:


> The HP poison "tablet" boggles me too.  I'm a Mac guy, and my first mobile device was a Palm Tungsten, which I loved (purchased in 2003 or so).  I just last month managed to rescue my files from it- it was dying- and now own an iTouch...which I love.  But that Palm was reliable, easy to use, and tough as Hell.  It took some killing to finally put it down.
> 
> Given my past experiences, I'd have thought HP, having purchased Palm's OS would be able to translate that into a serious challenger to the iPad.
> 
> And with me being in the market for a half-dozen+ tablets, I wanted to see some real competition for the iPad.  Not 'cause I dislike it, but because I like having real choices to make.




HP just buried WebOS. So far the only (almost equally expensive) alternative seems to be the new Samsung


----------



## catsclaw227

Fast Learner said:


> That was crazy short, especially for a tablet that was getting significantly better reviews than most Android tablets.
> 
> Crazy times. As several wags have noted, it's not yet a "tablet market", it's an "iPad market". I hope someone comes along to change that, or at least make a significant dent. I love my iPad, but at the very least want competitors pushing Apple to not rest on their laurels.



That is crazy news about WebOS.  Maybe the Google/Motorola deal will put some pressure on the iPad market.  Maybe they can put the full weight of Google into it and ink some commercial/corporate deals to get numbers and users up.  I would prefer a tablet with SD (or MicroSD) and USB.  

I am considering the Asus Eee Transformer with the keyboard docking station.  That grants some connections and brings battery life up something like 8-10 hours.


----------



## IronWolf

And they've been slashing the TouchPad pricing tremendously. I friend of mine just posted a receipt of a 32GB one he picked up for $149.99.


----------



## Relique du Madde

I'm just hopihg they sell their patents to Google, which is unlikely.


Right now I'm waiting to see if anyone managed to port Android onto it before suggesting to my GF to get one. (She's been wanting a tablet but doesn't want to spend too much money on one).


----------



## drothgery

Banshee16 said:


> I guess we'll see. Until Microsoft can get their mobile OS to have similar speed and battery life, I don't think it will happen. I'm not averse to Microsoft in the least..but their mobile tablets seem the most expensive, and with the shortest battery life.



Current Windows tablets are pretty much laptops with a touch screen and without a keyboard (or capable of operating with the keyboard hidden). It's not surprising that they have batter life like a laptop or netbook; they're much, much more capable generally. With Win8, it seems like there are going to be two classes of tablets - ARM devices more like iPads (which can't run traditional Windows apps), and improved versions of the current Windows tablets (because newer CPUs should offer more performance on less power, and solid-state drives should be cheaper).


----------



## Banshee16

nedjer said:


> HP just buried WebOS. So far the only (almost equally expensive) alternative seems to be the new Samsung





there are a few more options than that.  Don't just depend on written specs.  Try some devices.  I just bought the ASUS Transformer a week ago and am very happy with it.  i know people with the Xoom who love it.  Fundamentally, most of the Android tablets are very similar.  The Touchpad was very different,due to the OS.  And so is the Playbook.  There are many choices!

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16

Fast Learner said:


> Wow, insane:
> 
> *Two Weeks Ago*: Woot puts the HP TouchPad up for a day at $120 off, sells *612*, pathetic by Woot status where items at that price and newness tend to sell thousands and Woot completely sells out its stock.
> 
> *Yesterday*: Best Buy lets leak that they were shipped 270,000 TouchPads seven weeks ago and thus far have *sold less than 25,000*, and that they want to return their entire stock.
> 
> *Today*: HP announces they're dumping all webOS hardware and will not be selling them in the future. (And for that matter, they're getting out of the computer and mobile hardware business altogether.)
> 
> That was crazy short, especially for a tablet that was getting significantly better reviews than most Android tablets.
> 
> Crazy times. As several wags have noted, it's not yet a "tablet market", it's an "iPad market". I hope someone comes along to change that, or at least make a significant dent. I love my iPad, but at the very least want competitors pushing Apple to not rest on their laurels.



I think a big part of the problem is that WebOS, though having a better interface, had very little app support.  Honeycomb's interface may not be as nice, but it has a big ecosystem and hundreds of thousands of apps.  To anyone who pulls out the "Honeycomb only has 600 apps argument, I call BS.  I've barely run into anything my tablet can't run.  Some of the interfaces are a little  bare, because they're for phones...but they work fine and in most cases upscale properly.  I've run into *one* that didn't.

WebOS doesn't have that..nor does it have the Playbook's ability to tap into someone else's ecosystem (ie. Android).

I'm not saying that to criticize WebOS.  I think WebOS and QNX actually have the most advanced OS' and best designed interfaces...unfortunately they don't have the attention of American media and consequently lack the sales.  If HP said that they'd make an Android or iOS emulator, and be able to use the apps from those ecosystems, i  bet it would haved the device.

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16

catsclaw227 said:


> That is crazy news about WebOS.  Maybe the Google/Motorola deal will put some pressure on the iPad market.  Maybe they can put the full weight of Google into it and ink some commercial/corporate deals to get numbers and users up.  I would prefer a tablet with SD (or MicroSD) and USB.
> 
> I am considering the Asus Eee Transformer with the keyboard docking station.  That grants some connections and brings battery life up something like 8-10 hours.




With the dock it lasts even longer than that.....upwards of 15 hours.  I've been finding I use mine in netbook form a lot of the time.  

Make sure you get a dock with a serial number starting with B6 or B7.

The only thing this tablet can't do (yet) is Netflix, and it does that via Splashtop anyways.

I'm very happy with it so far.  The screen looks even better at home than it does in the store.

Banshee


----------



## Fast Learner

Banshee16 said:


> To anyone who pulls out the "Honeycomb only has 600 apps argument, I call BS.  I've barely run into anything my tablet can't run.  Some of the interfaces are a little  bare, because they're for phones...but they work fine and in most cases upscale properly.  I've run into *one* that didn't.



Not sure who says "Honeycomb only has 600 apps", I don't hear that. Rather, I hear the accurate "Honeycomb only has 600 *tablet-optimized* apps". All 400,000+ iPhone apps upscale on the iPad, not a big deal. 

It's that the iPad has more than 120,000 *tablet-optimized* apps, ones that take full advantage of the larger screen, the fact that you hold and use it differently, the potential availability of multiple hands, the space to display things like lists and summaries and details and options simultaneously, that multiple people can reasonably see the screen at the same time, etc.

That is a difference between the two platforms, a very real and, for many, meaningful difference.


----------



## Banshee16

Fast Learner said:


> Not sure who says "Honeycomb only has 600 apps", I don't hear that. Rather, I hear the accurate "Honeycomb only has 600 *tablet-optimized* apps". All 400,000+ iPhone apps upscale on the iPad, not a big deal.
> 
> It's that the iPad has more than 120,000 *tablet-optimized* apps, ones that take full advantage of the larger screen, the fact that you hold and use it differently, the potential availability of multiple hands, the space to display things like lists and summaries and details and options simultaneously, that multiple people can reasonably see the screen at the same time, etc.
> 
> That is a difference between the two platforms, a very real and, for many, meaningful difference.




I'm not saying that's what's been discussed here.  But I've seen the argument made by reviewers...usually when they're in the midst of complaining about Android Honeycomb devices, or justifying lower scores etc.

Now that I've been using one, I can say I really haven't been finding that many that were not optimized, yet would benefit from being so.  There's one for seeing issues of Canadian newspapers, and yes, it's not great.  But many of the ones that are not optimized for tablets still seem to work pretty darn well, and make effective use of screen space.  

Your statement is not incorrect.  But I do feel that the case is a little overexaggerated.  If you play with many of these apps that aren't optimized, they still work pretty well.

And, at the end of the day, apps are one of Apple's advantages. 

But with Honeycomb, you've got higher resolution screens, most have much better connectivity, ability to use Flash, better implementation of notifications, better multitasking, etc.

So it depends what someone's looking for.  If they care more for apps than for those other things, then go Apple.  But one has to question how much it truly matters.

Time will tell.  More and more Honeycomb apps are coming out. And once Ice Cream Sandwich hits, it won't even be a relevant discussion, I'm thinking.

Banshee


----------



## Agamon

IronWolf said:


> And they've been slashing the TouchPad pricing tremendously. I friend of mine just posted a receipt of a 32GB one he picked up for $149.99.




Yeah, me too.  If all it did was handle pdfs, I'd be happy.  Skype will be useful and eveything else is bonus.


----------



## falcarrion

It all depends on where and what you read. Apps are as important to tablets as gas is to most cars. Apple and Android both have a good quantity of them. As far as system upgrades go, android users will say wait until Ice cream comes out. Where Apple users will say the same about IOS5. As far as what tablet is the best depends on you the buyer. If you hate apple go Android. If you love Apple go the Ipad. The only fear I have for android tablets is if there sales don't pickup, how long will it be before they stop making them. Android phone will be around for a long time, but the tablet market is still shakey.


----------



## falcarrion

Did anyone pick up the cheap hp slate? What do you like about it?


----------



## JoeGKushner

Completely sold out when I found out about the price.

They did a great Hitler spoof if it though.


----------



## John Crichton

And Amazon finally jumps in with the Kindle Fire.

Pre-ordered mine the second it went up on amazon.com.


----------



## Fast Learner

It looks pretty sweet. I love the larger iPad size but wouldn't mind the Fire for ebooks.

There are blogs and stories about the Kindle Fire being an iPad killer, but I think Amazon is aiming more at the Nook Color, a similar tablet that actually eats into Amazon's ebook sales (unlike the iPad where the iBook store is a dud and the vast majority of books sold for the device are from Amazon for the Kindle app).

It likely will cut into some iPad sales for Christmas but will ultimately sell even more iPads as more people experience tablets fitting into their lives and become interested in more powerful options.

Amazon's combination of a massive content library (not a lot of apps currently but that may well change) and not trying to build an iPad clone will likely do very, very well.


----------



## IronWolf

Fast Learner said:


> There are blogs and stories about the Kindle Fire being an iPad killer, but I think Amazon is aiming more at the Nook Color, a similar tablet that actually eats into Amazon's ebook sales (unlike the iPad where the iBook store is a dud and the vast majority of books sold for the device are from Amazon for the Kindle app).
> 
> It likely will cut into some iPad sales for Christmas but will ultimately sell even more iPads as more people experience tablets fitting into their lives and become interested in more powerful options.




I agree. Looks more like a Nook killer, maybe a slight dent in iPad sales. Doesn't seem like an iPad killer to me though. Even with that said, it does look nice!


----------



## John Crichton

Yup, it's absolutely not a iPad killer.  It sets the market for two different types of tablets which is really nice.  I continue to look forward to what type of other features the 10" model will have when we see it next year!


----------



## Mallus

Any (early) word on how the Kindle Fire will work as a PDF reader, ie for gaming books?  I scanned a few of the stories yesterday, but all I got from them is that it'll read them, however the device seems heavily skewed toward working with media purchased through Amazon, even more so than with Apple's ecology.

I'm looking for an alternative to shlepping around my desktop-replacement laptop --I admit to some jealousy when my friends whip out their iPads on game day. 

iPad 3's next spring(ish), right?


----------



## John Crichton

Mallus said:


> Any (early) word on how the Kindle Fire will work as a PDF reader, ie for gaming books?  I scanned a few of the stories yesterday, but all I got from them is that it'll read them, however the device seems heavily skewed toward working with media purchased through Amazon, even more so than with Apple's ecology.



It will read any PDF just fine. All Kindles do with varied levels of success.  That success is almost completely dependent on how well the PDF itself was created.



Mallus said:


> iPad 3's next spring(ish), right?



Announcement in March, shipping soon after if the pattern holds.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

Speaking of iPad killers, here's an iPad _thriller_ for guitarists- Digitech's iBP-10!:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3zHpzYWnGQ&feature=related[/ame]


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

And as a longtime subscriber to F&SF Magazine, I can say that this is a pretty good deal for Kindle/iPad users:

New Kindle Exclusive: Free Subscription to Fantasy & Science Fiction Magazine Now Available in the Kindle Store - MarketWatch


----------



## Janx

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Speaking of iPad killers, here's an iPad _thriller_ for guitarists- Digitech's iBP-10!:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3zHpzYWnGQ&feature=related




I like the idea of this better:
iO Dock Pro Audio Dock For iPad & iPad 2

it's mic input and vga output (for big screen fun).

I could run my axe in for stomp box effects in Apps, or run my Pod XT Live into it instead.

An iOS app and cable to drive my Pod would be nice. I get some buzz from the laptop when I use that to configure effects.

I'm not keen on having my iPad on the floor to get stepped on, or should we ever escape the garage, get drinks spilled on it.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

Well, it_ looks_ like Digitech actually includes a specially loaded iPad (not iPad2) in the design of the thing itself.  As in, its using an iPad as an integrated part of its pedal...IOW, you don't need to supply your own.  (I'm contemplating contacting my Sweetwater rep to clear that all up.)

The iPad 2 version is a bit more.

DigiTech iPB-10 | Sweetwater.com

DigiTech iPB-10 + iPad 2 Bundle | Sweetwater.com


That Alesis dock looks mighty mighty, though...I might have to investigate that one as well.


----------



## Fast Learner

Dannyalcatraz said:


> And as a longtime subscriber to F&SF Magazine, I can say that this is a pretty good deal for Kindle/iPad users:
> 
> New Kindle Exclusive: Free Subscription to Fantasy & Science Fiction Magazine Now Available in the Kindle Store - MarketWatch




Unfortunately it's the "digest" edition, with only one short story per issue, but it's still free, so that's sweet. Plus a year-long subscription to the "extended" edition, with all the stories, novellas, etc., is only $12 a year. Thanks for the tip!

Edited to add a link to the digest subscription: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004ZFZCKY/ref=kin_dp_fsf_txt1


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

I'll just warn you- I was given 6 issues as a gift from a neighbor who was moving away.  That was 1996- I've been a subscriber ever since.


----------



## Janx

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Well, it_ looks_ like Digitech actually includes a specially loaded iPad (not iPad2) in the design of the thing itself.  As in, its using an iPad as an integrated part of its pedal...IOW, you don't need to supply your own.  (I'm contemplating contacting my Sweetwater rep to clear that all up.)




Thats sort of a surprising concept.  Shipping the pedal with an ipad in it.  Seems overkill, as I figure the target market is people who own an ipad.

I would think that would definitely add to its cost of the pedal.

Somebody else makes a pedal button box that plugs into your pad.  I guess the pad would sit on a music stand.  Because nothing is more rock and roll than a music stand to hold your ipad.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

Well, one thing that does is give you a dedicated iPad you don't have to worry about getting beer, JD, and size 12s on.  And if you already have one, you can use them to back each other up.


----------



## SteelDraco

So, www.woot.com had a Motorola Xoom wifi for sale yesterday, and I picked one up. I'm going to be taking it to game from now on. Should be interesting.


----------



## IronWolf

SteelDraco said:


> So, Woot® : One Day, One Deal? had a Motorola Xoom wifi for sale yesterday, and I picked one up. I'm going to be taking it to game from now on. Should be interesting.




Probably got a nice price from woot?

Should be a nice tablet for gaming and having easy access to PDFs and such at the gaming table. I love having a tablet for gaming.


----------



## Felon

Fast Learner said:


> It looks pretty sweet. I love the larger iPad size but wouldn't mind the Fire for ebooks.
> 
> There are blogs and stories about the Kindle Fire being an iPad killer, but I think Amazon is aiming more at the Nook Color, a similar tablet that actually eats into Amazon's ebook sales (unlike the iPad where the iBook store is a dud and the vast majority of books sold for the device are from Amazon for the Kindle app).
> 
> It likely will cut into some iPad sales for Christmas but will ultimately sell even more iPads as more people experience tablets fitting into their lives and become interested in more powerful options.
> 
> Amazon's combination of a massive content library (not a lot of apps currently but that may well change) and not trying to build an iPad clone will likely do very, very well.



The Kindle Fire is well-positioned. It has some major technical drawbacks. It can't be rooted like a Nook, for instance, so we're in for a walled garden that's likely even more constrictive than Applie's. Also, it has a scant amount of storage (about 6GB), and relies on the cloud for mass storage. But it only has wifi, not 3G, so there'll be plenty of times when the cloud is unavailable.

I've pre-ordered a couple that may wind up being gifts. I'm still looking to hear some things clarified, like whether Netflix will be available.


----------



## Relique du Madde

I heard it was able to be rooted... (although you loose access to all the nice exclusive goody apps once you free it from Amazon).


----------



## Banshee16

John Crichton said:


> Yup, it's absolutely not a iPad killer.  It sets the market for two different types of tablets which is really nice.  I continue to look forward to what type of other features the 10" model will have when we see it next year!




It's not an iPad killer from the perspective of having comparable features.  However, it's entirely possible that it'll take a lot of potential customers away, who figure it's "good enough"....particularly given the price point.

Banshee


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

It could also start weeding out lesser eReaders.


----------



## falcarrion

I want to see one in action first. One of the reasons I went from a Kindle DX to a Ipad in the first place was the zoom ability. The ease of the Ipad to work with pdfs compared to the Kindle DX, and all that could be done on an Ipad made a big difference to me. Now my Kindle DX sits gathering dust.
Until I have a chance to play with one I'll hold my opinion on it for now.


----------



## John Crichton

Banshee16 said:


> It's not an iPad killer from the perspective of having comparable features.  However, it's entirely possible that it'll take a lot of potential customers away, who figure it's "good enough"....particularly given the price point.
> 
> Banshee



I guess I'm just not seeing it.  The price-points are just too far off to have them in similar markets.  The 10" Kindle ... that's the one which will be the true iPad competition.


----------



## Banshee16

Keep in mind that there are many people who underutilize their iPhones as an example.  I know tonnes who have them, and use them for e-mail, maybe playing some music, and acting as a phone, but they don't get apps etc.

For those kinds of people, a $299 Kindle Fire, with limited abilities may be good enough.

It won't work for the power users.  But those are a minority.

Banshee


----------



## Relique du Madde

A spammer said:
			
		

> I should think a product war consists of products actually competing for market share. At prsent, there are like 2 viable alternatives to ipad on the market.
> 
> [ Links Redacted ]




He was on topic, but I reported the spammer.

Just for the sake of the thread continualty, I quoted him.

I'm thinking "Asus Transformer" and "Galaxy Tab 10.1"


----------



## John Crichton

Ignore spammers.  Don't quote them.


----------



## Relique du Madde

I quoted him because I also find myself wondering which of the current tablets could be considered a viable option to the iPad (any version).  That is if you ignore the who issue of app numbers.

The touchpad  sold well only because everyone wanted a cheap tablet and many are hoping it will could have android honeycomb or icecream sandwhich ported onto it in thefuture... but it's dead in the water otherwise.

The galexy tab 10.1 (and other sizes) seems to be good... but it's being blocked by apple EVERYWHERE.  This gives an impression that it is an alternative to the iPad.... but it's hard to tell since they are virtually non existent in some regions of the world.

The Xoom family is alright but everyone is annoyed at motorola's bad roll out, and the early adopters like myself are wondering what is missing from the new model that is coming out (since it's way cheaper then the original models).

The transformer seems to be going strong just by the fact that it does well in sales, but it's ugly as sin.


----------



## John Crichton

Relique du Madde said:


> I quoted him because I also find myself wondering which of the current tablets could be considered a viable option to the iPad (any version).



No need to quote to wonder.  



Relique du Madde said:


> That is if you ignore the who issue of app numbers.



But one can't ignore the apps available on each device.  The apps are the meat and the potatoes of tablets.  Even if a tablet has killer hardware it's squat without the library to support it.

That's the main reason why I'm looking forward to amazon's offering so much.  They'll make sure there are apps that work on it and that they are tablet optimized.


----------



## Fast Learner

Relique du Madde said:


> The galexy tab 10.1 (and other sizes) seems to be good... but it's being blocked by apple EVERYWHERE.  This gives an impression that it is an alternative to the iPad....




I'm not sure that's a good indicator: nearly all of the patents that are the basis of the blocking are all design patents where Samsung has visually cloned a bunch of iPad and iOS design elements, with the lawsuits being about confusing buyers due to similarity. 

Almost all of them are easily avoided if Samsung uses original graphic design for the interface. Frankly, some of them are absolutely shocking, so close they're ridiculous when there are a dozen equally good ways to represent the same thing. Kind of weird, really; there's just no way it wasn't intentional.


----------



## Villano

Banshee16 said:


> Keep in mind that there are many people who underutilize their iPhones as an example.  I know tonnes who have them, and use them for e-mail, maybe playing some music, and acting as a phone, but they don't get apps etc.
> 
> For those kinds of people, a $299 Kindle Fire, with limited abilities may be good enough.
> 
> It won't work for the power users.  But those are a minority.
> 
> Banshee




The Kindle Fire is actually only $199.  

And I'm one of those people.  I have a PC and a laptop.  I don't need to spend $500 on a tablet.  I just wanted to get something cheap to read books and comics on.


----------



## falcarrion

If anyone is intrested Adobe now has an app in the app store. An Adobe reader app... wasn't sure if we would ever see one.


----------



## Alan Shutko

falcarrion said:


> If anyone is intrested Adobe now has an app in the app store. An Adobe reader app... wasn't sure if we would ever see one.




I'm not sure I see a need for Adobe Reader... I don't know if it offers much more that the other readers don't offer.  The natural thoughts would be support for PDF Portfolios and Javascript (action script) within PDFs, but I don't know if those are supported.

But just to be fair, Adobe has a number of other apps in the App store.  They've got a trio of apps that tie into Photoshop (Eazel, Color Lava, and Nav) and a decent free app called Ideas that lets you do some freehand drawing.


----------



## Agamon

Kobo announced the Vox today.  Android Gingerbread, 8 GB, upgradable to 32 GB, 7" screen, 7 hours batlife, $200.  Available next week.  Which, more importantly for myself, is an indefinite period minus one week sooner than I can buy a Kindle Fire.

I lurve my Kobo Touch and my Galaxy S, and it's like they had a baby!


----------



## falcarrion

Alan Shutko said:


> I'm not sure I see a need for Adobe Reader... I don't know if it offers much more that the other readers don't offer.  The natural thoughts would be support for PDF Portfolios and Javascript (action script) within PDFs, but I don't know if those are supported.
> 
> But just to be fair, Adobe has a number of other apps in the App store.  They've got a trio of apps that tie into Photoshop (Eazel, Color Lava, and Nav) and a decent free app called Ideas that lets you do some freehand drawing.




Goodreader does have more to offer, but the adobe reader is free. I tried it out and it works quite smoothly. As far as gaming goes, I will most likely being using them both at the same time. for a simple character sheet pdf the adobe will work great. But for game books I just like how Goodreader handles them. It never hurts to have two pdf readers for quick referencing.


----------



## falcarrion

Agamon said:


> Kobo announced the Vox today.  Android Gingerbread, 8 GB, upgradable to 32 GB, 7" screen, 7 hours batlife, $200.  Available next week.  Which, more importantly for myself, is an indefinite period minus one week sooner than I can buy a Kindle Fire.
> 
> I lurve my Kobo Touch and my Galaxy S, and it's like they had a baby!




Nice price for a good looking unit. Lets hope it works just as good.


----------



## John Crichton

falcarrion said:


> Goodreader does have more to offer, but the adobe reader is free. I tried it out and it works quite smoothly. As far as gaming goes, I will most likely being using them both at the same time. for a simple character sheet pdf the adobe will work great. But for game books I just like how Goodreader handles them. It never hurts to have two pdf readers for quick referencing.



You don't use the tabs in Goodreader?  No need for two readers!


----------



## Janx

falcarrion said:


> If anyone is intrested Adobe now has an app in the app store. An Adobe reader app... wasn't sure if we would ever see one.




I would hope that the guys who own the PDF format have the best, most capable PDF reader.  Its not like there weren't other readers around to set the bar.

If they fail that, they are morons.


----------



## Fast Learner

Janx said:


> I would hope that the guys who own the PDF format have the best, most capable PDF reader.  Its not like there weren't other readers around to set the bar.
> 
> If they fail that, they are morons.




Perhaps, but they make money by giving away their simple PDF app and charging for their full-featured PDF app. That's why Reader on PCs is so limited, and why Reader on the iPad is also very limited.

It's also true that Adobe has blinders about what PDF is supposed to do vs. what people are doing with it.


----------



## Janx

Fast Learner said:


> Perhaps, but they make money by giving away their simple PDF app and charging for their full-featured PDF app. That's why Reader on PCs is so limited, and why Reader on the iPad is also very limited.
> 
> It's also true that Adobe has blinders about what PDF is supposed to do vs. what people are doing with it.




On the PC side, the # of people buying Adobe Professional is much smaller than the number using Adobe Reader.  I don't think it's a "first taste is free" strategy so much as most people need to read PDFs and not create them.

On your second point, your probably right.  Some companies are really stupid as to how their product should really work.


----------



## Fast Learner

Janx said:


> On the PC side, the # of people buying Adobe Professional is much smaller than the number using Adobe Reader.  I don't think it's a "first taste is free" strategy so much as most people need to read PDFs and not create them.



No indeed, I didn't mean it as a "first taste is free" strategy. Rather, it's about something that's a solid file format that, due to Reader being free and very broadly distributed, can be read by anyone, where it will look (very nearly) identical regardless of device. Once you have that in place then people who want to create such files will begin clamoring for the ability to do so, which is precisely what happened.

Now there are many dozens, even hundreds of programs that can natively create PDFs, and dozens of programs that enable all of the others to print to PDF. Viewing PDFs without Reader is now built into most browsers, and the PDF format has become a core part of the Mac OS.

Adobe does well selling Acrobat Pro nonetheless because it's still the most powerful PDF creation and editing tool, and because they're the only ones who actually have sufficient authority to extend the PDF format (which they've done many times), with only their own Pro tool capable of working with the extensions for many months or sometimes even years.

In conclusion, it's wise of them to create a free Reader app for the iPad (despite the fact that the built-in Safari browser, the built-in iBooks app, and any 3rd party app that wants to can perfectly display PDFs) so they can say they have a one on every platform; it simply need not be the best, by any means.


----------



## falcarrion

John Crichton said:


> You don't use the tabs in Goodreader?  No need for two readers!




I do use the tabs, but with IOS5 switching between apps is faster. Four or five finger swipe to the left or your rightand your in a different app.


----------



## Banshee16

John Crichton said:


> I guess I'm just not seeing it.  The price-points are just too far off to have them in similar markets.  The 10" Kindle ... that's the one which will be the true iPad competition.




I think overall, the Fire will make Android, period, a much bigger threat on tablets.

If Apple sold 15 million iPads this year, and there were 6 million Android tablets sold in that time.........but analysts are predicting 5 million Fires sold by the end of this year, based on the current rate of purchasing, that will make the delta more like 11 million vs. 15 million....not nearly so significant.

The Fire runs Android apps, so even though it uses a different version of Android, it'll use the same apps, and hence support the development of apps for the platform.

Banshee


----------



## Felon

Well, Adobe apps on iOS is not news in and of itself. There are three Adobe Phtooshop apps available (one's a neat little finger-painting app). It's Flash that's ever been the major sticking point. 

Never heard of Kobo, but the tablet itself looks fine for $200. It's a bit underpowered, but you gotta give up something for that price with an SD card reader. I'd suggest waiting for the reviews. With the Kindle Fire, OTOH, waiting may not be an option, at least not in the short term. I would not be surprised for them to sell out quickly.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots

I'd expect the Fire to be the number one selling consumer electronic this Christmas. Once it's out, there will actually be a "tablet war." Right now, given the market share of the iPad, it's sort of a laughable proposition, which doesn't benefit anyone.


----------



## Fast Learner

Banshee16 said:


> If Apple sold 15 million iPads this year



They didn't, they've sold more than 25 million in the first three quarters (9 months) of this calendar year: first quarter, second quarter, third quarter (Apple's fiscal year is a quarter off the calendar year, so links are to appropriate quarters and so the total does not include the 7.33 million iPads sold in their first fiscal quarter).



> and there were 6 million Android tablets sold in that time.........



There weren't. I haven't researched the total Android tablets actually sold to consumers this year, but the numbers you're likely quoting are from reports like those from Strategy Analytics, which are Android tablets shipped to retailers, not tablets actually sold. Apple's numbers are iPads actually sold to humans.



> analysts are predicting 5 million Fires sold by the end of this year, based on the current rate of purchasing, that will make the delta more like 11 million vs. 15 million....not nearly so significant.



Assuming those numbers were correct -- which they weren't -- you're ignoring sales of iPads in the 4th calendar quarter. Apple sold 9.25 million last quarter, and the coming quarter is, as Christmas buying dictates, their annual best. Based on year-over-year sales increase percentages for the last two quarters (average of 174.5%), they're on track to sell more than 16 million iPads in this last quarter of the year; even working off the incorrect 6:15 starting ratio, you'd end up with 11:31.

The Fire is interesting and is likely to sell pretty well, but it -- and all Android tablets put together, even if you include those like the Nook that can't run most apps without hacking -- won't touch iPad sales this year.

Maybe next, we'll see.


----------



## Fast Learner

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> I'd expect the Fire to be the number one selling consumer electronic this Christmas.



I think that's extremely unlikely, if for no other reason that Amazon likely can't produce nearly enough to meet that ranking. As I noted in my previous post, Apple will likely sell around 16 million iPads this quarter, and many more iPhones; heck, they sold 4 million iPhone 4S devices in the _first three days_ they were on sale. It's unlikely there will be more than 5 million or so Fires sold, unless Amazon has some secret production plants where they've been churning these things out for months already.

Heck, there will likely be more Kinects sold than Fires.


----------



## Felon

It's pretty much a given that there won't be enough Fires to meet the demand. Of course, that will only convince consumers that it must be worth having-as it did with the iPad--and thus further stimulate the demand. Probably the best thing Motorola could have done for the Xoom is have a limited initial production.

Android will always be a niche market for tablets. I think for most folks, a tablet fits more into the same category as a smartphone than a computer, and that puts Android at something of a disadvantage. I have an iphone specifically because I don't need or want a high level of "fidgetyness" where I can do a lot of tweaking and optimizing and searching for the best options, all at the expense at the lack of a unified, orderly experience. I don't want to weigh a bunc of podcast management apps against each other: I'll take the walled garden and get on with my life. When I get home and sit down at my desk, I want those walls gone, but I think tablets are sufficiently portable that users will seek a "guided" experience.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

IOW, like a lot of people, you take a "Just work, baby!" view on these things.  Me too...but I'm an Applephile.


----------



## Janx

Felon said:


> I have an iphone specifically because I don't need or want a high level of "fidgetyness" where I can do a lot of tweaking and optimizing and searching for the best options, all at the expense at the lack of a unified, orderly experience. I don't want to weigh a bunc of podcast management apps against each other: I'll take the walled garden and get on with my life. When I get home and sit down at my desk, I want those walls gone, but I think tablets are sufficiently portable that users will seek a "guided" experience.




good point here.  My Android phone is under-utilized with what I can do with.  I just don't care to dig in and optimize and customize.  Maybe if I was younger and had more time to fiddle with it.

Whereas, I'm fine with the apps on my iPhone.  in fact, choices for apps is a PITA.  I don't want 10 dubious choices for a Remote Desktop contro app, or mail clients, or even PDF readers.  I'd rather each feature be covered by a best of class app, and not worry about it.

Going back to the snippet I deleted, ponder this, for a simple home computer user: can they live with a tablet and NO computer?

a friend was advised to get an iPad for work (speech therapy) and wanting a new PC.  So I suggested considering an iPad2 with the right Apps loaded up and a bluetooth keyboard instead of doing bot ipad and PC.

"normal" people just need email, spreadsheet, word processor, browser to be happy (most people just a browser and word processor).

Obviously, wouldn't fly for people who use other "real" applications.  But a lot of people just do email and surf, and maybe write a document.

The friend fit the profile I'm suggesting, basically someone who barely knows how to use the computer for much beyond writing a paper, surfing or checking email.

I think the power of tablets is if my profile covers most users AND the apps are continuing to get advanced to cover the extra "real work" then fewer people need justify a clunky desktop or laptop.


----------



## Felon

Dannyalcatraz said:


> IOW, like a lot of people, you take a "Just work, baby!" view on these things.  Me too...but I'm an Applephile.




Well, I'm saying that there's a place for playing with knobs and dials, but that seems more of something to do when you can pull up a chair and lose myself in that ship-in-a-bottle type of effort. I own a PC for this reason. 

On the go is not ship-in-a-bottle time, it's immediat-gratification time.




Janx said:


> good point here.  My Android phone is under-utilized with what I can do with.  I just don't care to dig in and optimize and customize.  Maybe if I was younger and had more time to fiddle with it.
> 
> Whereas, I'm fine with the apps on my iPhone.  in fact, choices for apps is a PITA.  I don't want 10 dubious choices for a Remote Desktop contro app, or mail clients, or even PDF readers.  I'd rather each feature be covered by a best of class app, and not worry about it.
> 
> Going back to the snippet I deleted, ponder this, for a simple home computer user: can they live with a tablet and NO computer?



I have a friend who has sworn off anything non-Apple, and he still does not use his Mac simply because the iPad does everything he needs. He's not the ship-in-a-bottle type!


----------



## Janx

Felon said:


> Well, I'm saying that there's a place for playing with knobs and dials, but that seems more of something to do when you can pull up a chair and lose myself in that ship-in-a-bottle type of effort. I own a PC for this reason.




knobs and dials has its place, I prefer it within the domain of the actual topic of interest.

I use a PC to run visual studio.  Lots of knobs and dials to it, plus all the plug-ins and libraries I have to have.  I don't particularly like it, as it complicates replicating that dev environment to all my devs.  But I do like having lots of options WITHIN the code I'm writing to solve the actual problem.

My Pod XT Live multi-FX pedal has knobs and dials.  When I want to configure it, I plug it into my PC and run GearBox.  that lets me more easily fiddle with virtual knobs and dials.

So I suspect the key is knobs and dials to configure should be elegant and seemless.  And too many choices over administrivia just gets in the way of the real work.


----------



## falcarrion

With all these tablets and ereaders that are now out or will be. Has anyone seen an increase of them at game tables? I have been using mine since Sept of 2010. And only one other person in the group uses one besides me. Though most of my friends are struggling during these hard times. What is your experiance?


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

Well, at our table, I use my iTouch (after having used my Palm for years), another guy has been using his iPhone since it came out, one guy is using his laptop, and one guy is using my iMac (which is located at my desk, right next to the gaming table) to access his PC on the CB.

And I'll be getting my iPad 2 in another week or so...


----------



## Janx

falcarrion said:


> With all these tablets and ereaders that are now out or will be. Has anyone seen an increase of them at game tables? I have been using mine since Sept of 2010. And only one other person in the group uses one besides me. Though most of my friends are struggling during these hard times. What is your experiance?




Of my friends, I'm the only one with a tablet.  Most have iPhones but none have used them for gaming that I know of.

I'd been attempting to use laptop for running my character since 2000 (which the first attempt had the ironic factor of getting redirected on where the game was to a storage garage with no power  ).

Since then, in the last few years, half the players in my posse use laptops and my spreadsheet to manage their PC.

Since getting my iPad, it's even better than a laptop.  Takes up less space.  No worries about running power to it (I do not trust laptops to run on battery if I can plug them in).


----------



## John Crichton

Love using the iPad 2 while playing Pathfinder.  Always have the Core Book at the ready via PDF as well as our GM's campaign primer.  I do keep my laptop nearby and use that when someone wants to use the iPad for quick searching.


----------



## NewJeffCT

We have one guy who brings his iPad to the gaming table, and the other people in the group use their smartphones to look up things every once in a while.

I'm the DM and I don't really use anything during the game.  I'd be all for a tablet, but I'd need to find the right one first.  

I'm very leery of Apple products as I've had horrible luck with them (an iMac I got died weeks after the 1 year warranty expired - blown motherboard, $900 to replace... the $500 HP PC I bought to replace it is still going strong four years later.  Plus, my wife went through four iPods in a year, and she was not a heavy user of her iPod. Maybe it was a bad batch shipped to the Hartford, CT area?)


----------



## IronWolf

I use my iPad at the table all the time. I had dabbled years ago with a laptop at the gaming table, but didn't have a lot of success as it felt like a barrier of sorts. So went back to computerless gaming (well computerless at the table, still used it for game prep of course).

Then I picked up an iPad and I find it very useful. It feels like a book at the table so it isn't getting in the way or acting as a barrier at the table. I have tons of books at my hand, I have a notepad app, web access makes rule lookups on d20pfsrd really easy. I still have some key physical books at my disposal though.

This year at Origins there were several tablets at the games. Not an overwhelming number, but certainly enough to be noticed. I think the interesting thing will be to see if their is an increase in the number of them this upcoming year.


----------



## John Crichton

NewJeffCT said:


> We have one guy who brings his iPad to the gaming table, and the other people in the group use their smartphones to look up things every once in a while.
> 
> I'm the DM and I don't really use anything during the game.  I'd be all for a tablet, but I'd need to find the right one first.
> 
> I'm very leery of Apple products as I've had horrible luck with them (an iMac I got died weeks after the 1 year warranty expired - blown motherboard, $900 to replace... the $500 HP PC I bought to replace it is still going strong four years later.  Plus, my wife went through four iPods in a year, and she was not a heavy user of her iPod. Maybe it was a bad batch shipped to the Hartford, CT area?)



Hit an Apple store, screw around with an iPad for a while and see what you think.  Money, of course, is always an issue as they aren't cheap.  For my uses it was an easy call even for the 64gb version.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

> Plus, my wife went through four iPods in a year,




Yowtch!  Do you remember when this was?  They had a model that had some nasty battery problems.

Personally, the only Apple product that I had a problem with was an old IIe, which had a severe motherboard frying. Since then, the only reasons I've had for replacements has been extreme obsolescence: my si lasted 8 years, my G3 lasted 10+.

And up until I got my latest iMac, I was even running some software (mostly graphics & games stuff) from as far back as the 1980s...

But anyone can make a lemon.  I had a friend whose Volvo spent more time at the dealership's service department than in his own garage...while our 4 lasted an average of 16 years each (and we had one that got totaled in a hit & run after only 5 years).

And once we bought a big-screen Sony TV for my grandparents that blew out it's CRT when I plugged it in.


----------



## Janx

Apple IIe's were tanks usually..  I've got an old Mac SE that probably still works (running os7 if I recall).

I've got a friend who has a freaky electrofrying field that wrecks electronics.  Like getting a wierd screen glitch on her iPhone 4.  Taking it to the Apple store, where the guy says they'd heard reports and it was a loose screw. He opens it tightens it, and all seems well.  Happens again.  she comes back.  He gives her a NEW iPhone 4 by placing it on the counter with the screen unlocked and the screen glitches out when she touches it to pick it up.

We suspect she's also fried her umpteen prior BlackBerries and the computer in her fridge that weak.  Plus, she's likely the cause of the terrible cell reception at her house.  We once called and texted her that we were on our way to her house.  An hour after we'd been visiting, her phone finally gets the voice mail and text.

I had an old RCA 20" color from 1988.  I used that that thing until 2008 or so when i replaced it with another HDTV.  It worked great.

Some stuff lasts forever, some stuff don't.

Back when I fixed computers, folks would ask me which brand was better.  Truth was, when they work, they're all fine.  And since I'd seen al makes, they also all break.  It's just luck of the draw a lot of the time.*

*While apple has a good rep for hardware, they do stupid stuff, too.  Like putting the speaker next to the harddrive, causing crashes in one model.


----------



## Fast Learner

Janx said:


> I've got a friend who has a freaky electrofrying field that wrecks electronics.




I have a friend like that too. People always call BS when I mention it, that there's some other explanation, but hers is so strong that if you put a watch on her wrist -- digital OR battery-driven mechanical -- it will instantly freak out (digital) or stop (mechanical). Take it off her wrist and it restarts. You can use your _own watch_ and see the effect on her wrist. It's crazy.

Probably obvious with my use of watches as the example that it's been many years since I've seen her in person and tried it. I wonder if it still happens and how she deals with cell phones and such. I'll have to drop her an email, if she can retrieve it.


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## Dannyalcatraz

I have a buddy like that, too.  He goes through cellphones and laptops like crazy.

And its not like they go haywire when he uses them; its nothing so obvious.  They just have incredibly short lifespans in his possession.

And soon, he'll be getting his first iPad2...


----------



## Banshee16

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Yowtch!  Do you remember when this was?  They had a model that had some nasty battery problems.
> 
> Personally, the only Apple product that I had a problem with was an old IIe, which had a severe motherboard frying. Since then, the only reasons I've had for replacements has been extreme obsolescence: my si lasted 8 years, my G3 lasted 10+.
> 
> And up until I got my latest iMac, I was even running some software (mostly graphics & games stuff) from as far back as the 1980s...
> 
> But anyone can make a lemon.  I had a friend whose Volvo spent more time at the dealership's service department than in his own garage...while our 4 lasted an average of 16 years each (and we had one that got totaled in a hit & run after only 5 years).
> 
> And once we bought a big-screen Sony TV for my grandparents that blew out it's CRT when I plugged it in.




My wife has an iPhone 4.  This summer, she dropped it, and it shattered into a million pieces.  So, Apple was nice enough to give her a new one.

The new one is *very* glitchy, but doesn't have the warranty the first one did.  I guess because she got a replacement, the warranty is supposedly expended or something, unless she buys Apple Care.

It refuses (or is very sluggish) to reorient when going from portrait or landscape orientation, text messages refuse to send or receive, e-mails reappear after being deleted.  She's not too impressed with it.

Mine has generally worked fine, aside from it being the cellphone with the most consistent habit of dropping calls of any phone I've owned.  Otherwise it works well.

Any company can make a lemon.

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16

Fast Learner said:


> They didn't, they've sold more than 25 million in the first three quarters (9 months) of this calendar year: first quarter, second quarter, third quarter (Apple's fiscal year is a quarter off the calendar year, so links are to appropriate quarters and so the total does not include the 7.33 million iPads sold in their first fiscal quarter).
> 
> 
> There weren't. I haven't researched the total Android tablets actually sold to consumers this year, but the numbers you're likely quoting are from reports like those from Strategy Analytics, which are Android tablets shipped to retailers, not tablets actually sold. Apple's numbers are iPads actually sold to humans.
> 
> 
> Assuming those numbers were correct -- which they weren't -- you're ignoring sales of iPads in the 4th calendar quarter. Apple sold 9.25 million last quarter, and the coming quarter is, as Christmas buying dictates, their annual best. Based on year-over-year sales increase percentages for the last two quarters (average of 174.5%), they're on track to sell more than 16 million iPads in this last quarter of the year; even working off the incorrect 6:15 starting ratio, you'd end up with 11:31.
> 
> The Fire is interesting and is likely to sell pretty well, but it -- and all Android tablets put together, even if you include those like the Nook that can't run most apps without hacking -- won't touch iPad sales this year.
> 
> Maybe next, we'll see.




Emphasis on "if", thanks.

As to Android tablets, according to Andy Rubin (http://www.androidauthority.com/there-are-over-6-million-android-tablets-out-there-andy-rubin-28891/), there are 6 million of them out there, so the guestimate I threw out there, of 6 million, seems to fall in line with those numbers currently.........and Honeycomb has only been out 7 months, so we'll see where they're at in 4 more months.  Some of the best tablets for the OS, such as the Galaxy 10.1 and Transformer, as well as possibly the Sony tablets, have been out for a relatively short time.  Yes, the Transformer's been out since....April?  But it has very limited availability for much of this year.

We can take another look in another 4 months, and see where things are at.  Maybe they'll be the same, maybe they won't.  Android started slow on phone as well, from what I understand, yet Given that Samsung alone has sold more Android ased phones than Apple has sold iPhones in Q3 of this year, apparently they've been catching up 

I'll *generally* predict success for the open standard with multiple manufacturers over one company trying to push their own proprietary hardware/software combo, when it comes to long term success.

I agree they won't touch Apple this year.  I think that's self evident.  They'd have to have one rockin' Q4 to catch up for this year.  However, they might very well finish with overall respectable numbers for a 12 month period.

It's kind of useless trying to predict what will happen in any case.  What'll happen will happen.

Some of the 2nd gen Android tablets are looking pretty nice...the new Toshiba one (the new one coming *after* the Thrive), as well as the Transformer 2.

Banshee


----------



## Fast Learner

Banshee16 said:


> Emphasis on "if", thanks.



I'm not sure, actually. There are all kinds of ifs, I suppose, but I assume that useful discussion is based on realistic information.



> As to Android tablets, according to Andy Rubin ("There Are Over 6 Million Android Tablets Out There" - Andy Rubin), there are 6 million of them out there, so the guestimate I threw out there, of 6 million, seems to fall in line with those numbers currently.........and Honeycomb has only been out 7 months, so we'll see where they're at in 4 more months.



It's not clear what "out there" means, as again, there's "shipped to stores" and "actually sold to customers". There have been 40 million iPads actually sold to customers. Point being, the "6:15 becomes 11:15" isn't a meaningful "if" in any sense. "If 6:40 becomes 11:56" is at least in the right realm.



> We can take another look in another 4 months, and see where things are at.  Maybe they'll be the same, maybe they won't.  Android started slow on phone as well, from what I understand, yet Given that Samsung alone has sold more Android ased phones than Apple has sold iPhones in Q3 of this year, apparently they've been catching up



I'm sure people will buy more Android tablets going forward, but as has been discussed ad nauseum in this forum, phone sales and tablet sales are entirely different beasts.



> I'll *generally* predict success for the open standard with multiple manufacturers over one company trying to push their own proprietary hardware/software combo, when it comes to long term success.



Me, I'll generally predict success for an easy-to-use, safe, consistent product over one that's more difficult to use, prone to malware, and with an interface that changes dramatically with every iteration.



> Some of the 2nd gen Android tablets are looking pretty nice...the new Toshiba one (the new one coming *after* the Thrive), as well as the Transformer 2.



Aye, any day now there will be a really good Android tablet. Just around the corner.


----------



## Mallus

Another thing to remember when discussing iOS vs. Android devices...

... it's not units shipped (to consumers or retailers) that really matters. It's profits. 

Apple makes something like %75 of the profits in the smartphone market. It must make _more_ from the tablet market  -- what with no real competition yet. Fire will change that, but I doubt it will have much effect on Apple's profits as they target a lower end of the market (even used iPads aren't in the same price class... I think). 

So even with all those Android devices out there, they don't make all that much in the way of the money...


----------



## Mallus

Banshee16 said:


> I'll *generally* predict success for the open standard with multiple manufacturers over one company trying to push their own proprietary hardware/software combo, when it comes to long term success.



Doing the exact opposite has worked for Apple so far...

... and my money is on it continuing to work. There is a high paying market segment that wants good design and ease-of-use. Techies tend to vastly overestimate how interested non-techies are with fiddling with their devices. Besides, it's not like you can't monkey around w/iOS devices...


----------



## Banshee16

Fast Learner said:


> I'm not sure, actually. There are all kinds of ifs, I suppose, but I assume that useful discussion is based on realistic information.



I didn't provide a link for that reference, as I didn't have one....whereas I had links for some of the other things I was pointing out, so I provided them.



Fast Learner said:


> It's not clear what "out there" means, as again, there's "shipped to stores" and "actually sold to customers". There have been 40 million iPads actually sold to customers. Point being, the "6:15 becomes 11:15" isn't a meaningful "if" in any sense. "If 6:40 becomes 11:56" is at least in the right realm.




It's a valid point.  My understanding from Rubin's statement is that the 6 million he points two are activated devices.  Now, if a device is activated, and then replaced because something went wrong, that equates to 2 activations for 1 purchase.  But those are numbers I don't think anyone has.  Are failure rates ever released?



Fast Learner said:


> I'm sure people will buy more Android tablets going forward, but as has been discussed ad nauseum in this forum, phone sales and tablet sales are entirely different beasts.
> 
> Me, I'll generally predict success for an easy-to-use, safe, consistent product over one that's more difficult to use, prone to malware, and with an interface that changes dramatically with every iteration.
> 
> 
> Aye, any day now there will be a really good Android tablet. Just around the corner.




There already are good Android tablets.  Galaxy Tab 10.1, ASUS Transformer, etc.  I use my Transformer pretty much every day for work, and I am able to do far more with it than my partners with their iPads.  I mean, the keyboards are slow for them, they don't find the note taking capabilities, even with a stylus, sufficient, and there are large numbers of websites that don't work correctly with them.

It's reached the point that I'm the only one who ends up bringing my tablet to work.  They used theirs for about a month when they got them, and that's been it.

You have to separate "selling at iPad levels" from whether or not the device is "good".

Apple spends a significantly disproportionate amount of money on marketing their devices as compared to the Android tablets etc. and have achieved commensurate higher sales.  I can see Apple commercials for the iPad and/or iPhone come up 4 times an hour during prime time TV watching.  I get those commercials every bloody day, hour after hour from about 7 pm until 10 pm.  How many Samsung or ASUS commercials have I seen in the same time span?  Zero.....the only advertiser advertising to compete with Apple up here is RiM.....I see Playbook commercials, definitely.

Now maybe that's my market...maybe the other manufacturers just don't advertise in Canada much, but they do in the U.S.  That I can't really attest to, as I don't watch TV in the U.S.   All I can see is that from where I'm sitting, no commercials.

Consequently, very little awareness.  

I've even given my tablet to relatives to play with....some of whom have iPads and iPhones.  Comments I received?  Easy to use.  Seems to "do more than my iPad".  "Wish I saw this before buying my iPad".

I'm *not* going to categorically state that the EEE Pad is a better device.  I think there are different consumers with different tastes and requirements.  But an inference that there are no good Android tablets is a little silly.  I *will* state the personal opinion that I think it's a very good device.  And that I've had several other people see it and be similarly impressed.

But 100% I feel there's very little product awareness.  Many people will end up defaulting to the market leader, simply out of ignorance of alternative options.  Those same people who don't want to futz with their devices etc. also don't read up about the plethora of devices that are out there, and will end up buying what they've seen advertised and promoted.

Banshee


----------



## Janx

good post of your experiences banshee..

One ponderance I have, is your colleagues seemed to have gotten less work out of their iPad than your android, and your relatives in some length of time determined that the Android does more.

That seems like the whole problem is Apps.  Assuming your relative only had Thanksgiving day to play with it while they visited, they probably played with all your clever work related apps and compared that to the 3 versions of Angry Birds they installed on their iPad.

I'm being facetious, but the problem in both cases has more to do with app selection than the device itself.

I have at least 2 note taking apps on my iPad and a stylus.  I still seem to prefer using a paper notebook (note, I don't really take notes, I jot down IP#'s, IDs, and diagrams I'm working out or explaining).  If the note taking apps suck on iPad, it's because the dev hasn't stolen ideas from the Android's best of class note taking apps.

I'd be curious to know the apps Banshee uses on his Android, relative to the apps on his cow-erker's iPads.  I almost bet the issue is user, not device.  Banshee being more motivated to make use of his tablet (which might be an important factor, but iThings don't normally lack for enthusiasm).


----------



## Banshee16

Janx said:


> good post of your experiences banshee..
> 
> One ponderance I have, is your colleagues seemed to have gotten less work out of their iPad than your android, and your relatives in some length of time determined that the Android does more.
> 
> That seems like the whole problem is Apps.  Assuming your relative only had Thanksgiving day to play with it while they visited, they probably played with all your clever work related apps and compared that to the 3 versions of Angry Birds they installed on their iPad.
> 
> I'm being facetious, but the problem in both cases has more to do with app selection than the device itself.
> 
> I have at least 2 note taking apps on my iPad and a stylus.  I still seem to prefer using a paper notebook (note, I don't really take notes, I jot down IP#'s, IDs, and diagrams I'm working out or explaining).  If the note taking apps suck on iPad, it's because the dev hasn't stolen ideas from the Android's best of class note taking apps.
> 
> I'd be curious to know the apps Banshee uses on his Android, relative to the apps on his cow-erker's iPads.  I almost bet the issue is user, not device.  Banshee being more motivated to make use of his tablet (which might be an important factor, but iThings don't normally lack for enthusiasm).




Those are valid questions.

There's a difference between my partners and I, and then the other people I was referencing.  We tend to be rather technical as we're partners in a web design/development company, whereas my relatives are not.  One of them owns a programming/consulting company in Australia, and the others aren't in the computer industry at all.

So, with my partners, one of them uses his iPad largely for personal stuff.  I rarely see him use it at work.  He's a programmer, and fairly familiar with the technology.  Has an iPhone 4 and the iPad 2.  My other partner is more of a designer.  He played around with note taking apps early on, and then stopped, and now uses a regular notepad.  He *does* use his for wireframing websites, and there's a really cool app for doing that on the iPad.  Nothing comparable on mine for doing that yet.....though there's one coming called Adobe Proto that I think will be released tomorrow.  Aside from that, I believe he uses it for news reading, games for his kids, etc.

To be clear, they both use their device...just not as much for work.

With respect to my relatives, the one who owns a programming firm had an iPad right there, and everyone thought it was cool.  When he looked at the Transformer, he thought it was pretty cool.  He hadn't seen one down under yet.  He pointed out it didn't render pages as quickly as the iPad 2 did, but the keyboard dock and ports would be very useful.

We had all attended a wedding the day before, and I had taken a bunch of photos on my SLR.  They wanted copies of them, but didn't have a laptop or anything......so I was able to grab the USB cable from my camera bag, sit down with the Transformer and connect it to the camera, quickly pull all the photos down to the tablet, and then upload them to a photo sharing site via WiFi.  Took a few minutes (mainly upload time, not actually getting things set up).  It was easy peasy.  I was also able to use the tablet that way to quickly show all the photos to the family.  That went very well....at which point the kids wanted to grab the Transformer, and started playing Angry Birds etc. on it

I'm using a variety of apps on the tablet at the moment......I have been experimenting with a bunch, not knowing what's best, as I'm new to Android, whereas I've had an iPhone for a year, so I've got a bunch of duplicates loaded on at the moment.

Media
-MX Player
-VLC Player
-Mobo Player
-Rock Player Lite
-Netflix
-Doubletwist

Notetaking
-Springpad
-Evernote
-Supernote
-Sketchpad X

Games
-Dungeon Defenders (not a fan of the whole "tower defense" type game)
-Galaxy on Fire 2
-Angry Birds (3 different types....I think Rio and another one).
-Fruit Ninja (find it stupid, so I've since deleted it).

WiFi Analyzer (use this for help when figuring out WiFi coverage zones at office, and troubleshooting interference problems)


News Readers

Feedly
Pulse

Browsers

Dolphin Browser HD (lots of useful plugins)
Opera
Flash

ES File Manager (file manager for whole SSD, also lets me move files over WiFi, FTP into web servers, etc.)

I'm running a replacement launcher....ADW Launcher, I believe, that they thought was pretty cool, in terms of being able to change the interface.

There's a bunch of other stuff it'll run......programs to download from Torrents etc. but I don't use any of those.

I have a few book reader apps, few of whom work as nice as the ones on the iPad.  Specifically, simple things like the page flipping animations don't seem to be included, even when I'm using an app that has a brother app on iOS that *does* do it.....but I know the programs *support* it.....as in, if I use the Kobo app or the Google Books app, or the ASUS Books app, I can get page flipping if I read an epub file I bought online....but if I read a PDF (like an RPG book I purchased from RPG Now), it doesn't support the page flipping animation.....but if I read the exact same file on iPad using Kobo (for instance), I *do* get the animations.

In general, points that were commented about as being positives were:

-detachable, portable keyboard that charges the tablet.
-long battery life (with the keyboard, I get 16-22 hours active use...not sleep time)
-USB ports and HDMI port (didn't use HDMI port)
-memory card support as we could easily move something to tablet on memory card, remove memory card, stick it into another computer and migrate files
-full file system access (the programmer liked this one)
-they liked that they could look at any website and not get "install Flash" prompts and big blank areas.  My relative the programmer liked this.  He understands what Flash is.  My other relatives who aren't in the computer business just liked that they could see everything, without really understanding Flash vs. not Flash.  This is less of an issue on major websites where they have big web budgets to reprogram stuff.....but for the 90% of websites out there that are launched by companies who *don't* have budgets allowing them to reprogram sites over and over, it helps.

There's a bunch of stuff it does that I haven't even really tried yet....DLNA streaming, replacement keyboards, Splashtop desktop control, I've barely touched the unlimited cloud storage, etc.

VPN connections work *much* better than on my iPhone.  On my iPhone, the VPN connection fails 90% of the time....I have to try connecting over and over before it finally works.  Same with my connection to Google apps.  It routinely rejects my password, even when I type them into my notes so I can verify by sight that I've got them typed correctly, then I highlight the text, copy, then paste it into the password field for Google Apps.  On the Transformer, those things are working 100% of the time.

So really, it depends on what you're doing with the device.  As a laptop replacement, I find the Transformer works much better.  Due to the better availability of apps, games etc. I think the iPad works better as an entertainment device.

My tablet has less variety of apps on it than my iPhone does....but then, I've had the iPhone longer, and, as I mentioned in an earlier post, several apps just make more sense to use on a phone than on a tablet (IMO).  Regardless of the fact that I like the GPS and maps on my tablet *more*, the fact is I'd rather be carrying around a phone for mapping, rather than a 10 or 9 inch tablet.  Similar for recording gas mileage, tracking miles driven for work, recording the location of my car and time left til my parking meter expires, recording receipts for expenses etc. etc.  I *could* do all those on my tablet......but there's just no sense.

Another good example of use was last week.  One of my partners and I drove to a client meeting out of the city.  We used the iPhone to navigate, as the meeting was with a company in the country.  On the way, I pulled out my tablet (he was driving), and as we drove, I logged into Google apps, had the tablet and keyboard sitting on my lap (very comfortable...much moreso than my 17" laptop), and as we drove by, I was rapidly pulling up the websites of companies whose offices or signs we saw on the side of the road, and adding them all into our online spreadsheet for following up and cold calling, and rapidly adding in notes from what I could see as we drove by their locations (signage needs updating, etc. etc.).  All stuff we couldn't easily see by using the Yellow Pages.  By the time we got back to our office after the meeting, I already had a new list of prospects to cold call.

Data input on the run is very easy that way.  Yes, I could do it with a small netbook....but that'll be $300, and runs Windows, so it's slower...and doesn't include the touch screen etc.

Banshee


----------



## JoeGKushner

And I see Groupon has the 16 gb Toshiba Thrive for $299.

Pretty good deal considering the various inputs you can use on it and that you can replace your own battery on it.


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## Janx

Banshee16 said:


> Another good example of use was last week.  One of my partners and I drove to a client meeting out of the city.  We used the iPhone to navigate, as the meeting was with a company in the country.  On the way, I pulled out my tablet (he was driving), and as we drove, I logged into Google apps, had the tablet and keyboard sitting on my lap (very comfortable...much moreso than my 17" laptop), and as we drove by, I was rapidly pulling up the websites of companies whose offices or signs we saw on the side of the road, and adding them all into our online spreadsheet for following up and cold calling, and rapidly adding in notes from what I could see as we drove by their locations (signage needs updating, etc. etc.).  All stuff we couldn't easily see by using the Yellow Pages.  By the time we got back to our office after the meeting, I already had a new list of prospects to cold call.
> 
> Data input on the run is very easy that way.  Yes, I could do it with a small netbook....but that'll be $300, and runs Windows, so it's slower...and doesn't include the touch screen etc.
> 
> Banshee





Good write-up on the usage.

Still not sure that's a clear Android is better story.  $70 buys an Apple bluetooth keyboard for an iPad.  I wonder if having the keyboard right there made it obvious and thus won a fan (whereas, lacking iBoard, didn't make it obvious that it can do the same thing).

Not saying you're bashing one over the other.  I just don't see a clear difference in actual capability from your story.


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## rangerjohn

Fast Learner said:


> Both iOS and Android fully support over-the-air app installation, and both support a variety of over-the-air syncing options. I'm not aware of any media transfer that requires a hardware sync.
> 
> Android supports over-the-air data backup and OS upgrades, both of which you'll likely see in iOS within a year or so (Apple is said to have avoided it so far due to the ability to lose data or even magically brick a phone in a situation where it's hard to restore, something that does cause some Android users trouble.)
> 
> The only reason I ever sync my iPad or my iPhone is for data backup and OS upgrades. If it weren't for that temporary need, both of my parents could easily and happily get by with just iPads. We're in the midst of a mighty transformation, I argue.





I argue against this with the following: screen size and an aging population.
I wouldn't buy a portable product now, either tablet or smart phone, because of screen size and interface size.  I in my mid 40's now and have trouble using small devices.  The problem will only increase, portable devices will get smaller and my vision worse.  So while portable devices will sell, they will not replace the pc.  Oh and vision aside, there are things I do on my pc I wouldn't feel comfortable doing on a portable device, like playing games and watching movies.


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## Janx

rangerjohn said:


> I argue against this with the following: screen size and an aging population.
> I wouldn't buy a portable product now, either tablet or smart phone, because of screen size and interface size.  I in my mid 40's now and have trouble using small devices.  The problem will only increase, portable devices will get smaller and my vision worse.  So while portable devices will sell, they will not replace the pc.  Oh and vision aside, there are things I do on my pc I wouldn't feel comfortable doing on a portable device, like playing games and watching movies.




I disagree on the aging trend impacting the iThing trend.

It's certainly true that technology was trending to smaller and smaller.
And that old people have crappy eyesight.

But things aren't going to where screens are getting tinier.

According to legend, the worlds smallest cellphone came out right when the iPhone came out.  It was basically just a cell phone.  You probably never heard of it, because smaller for smaller sake was deemed useless by the populace when they saw the iPhone.

Parts are going to get smaller.  But certain form factors are going to be preferred.  Which means more smaller parts can be packed into the same form factor.

The result is, all smartphone screens are approximately the same size.  Nobody is going to make a smartphone with a 1" screen.  Instead, more pixels will be packed into the standard screen sizes, and more battery and hardware behind that to give you more horsepower.

The cellphone (smart or dumb), at this point, will stick to the sizes that fit nicely in your hand.  What they do in that space will improve their capabilities.

Note, in Apple's iPad2, the screen is the same size.  But it is a thinner device over all.  less bulky.  At this point, there's little reason to go thinner still, so as parts get smaller, the iPad3 will probably have the same form factor, but pack in more goodies into that space.

What this means for old people:
if you can't read an iPhone screen, you're still screwed.
If you can read an iPhone screen, don't worry, they will not be getting smaller.

This is the same reason the television in houses has a bigger screen than it was 10, 20, 30 years ago.   We want to see.  And as the technology gets smaller, it enables BIGGER screens in a practical fashion.  Nobody wants a 1" TV set in their house because Sony makes one with tinier CRTs.

As the population ages, so does their technology acceptance curve.  My mom had no clue about computers.  Today's grandparents are online and sending emails.  And many of them have iPhones, etc.

basically, in the 80's people who thought computers were mumbo jumbo were 50+ years old.  Today, 50+ year olds were working with computers in the office in the 80's.  Whereas the 50 year olds then were seeing it come in as a change.

I have no doubt that some technology will exist when I am 50 that I will think is totally stupid about how everybody's ga-ga over it.  But I will be totally comfortable with the technology akin to what exists right now.

as a result, you're 40 now.  You kinda don't like smart phones.  In 10 years, you will be more accustomed to them.  You might grumble about how you didn't need all this crap when you were a kid.

But in turn, your kid, when he turns 50, will not see the same problem with smartphones that you have.  because to him, this stuff has existed his whole life.


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## rangerjohn

No, I won't become accustomed to them.  Because its not an acceptance issue.  It's a form factor issue, until voice recognition becomes 100% and holo projectors become practical or at least wireless connection to big monitors/televisions, they are simply too small for me to use.  It's not an education/fear its vision and finger size.


----------



## NewJeffCT

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Yowtch!  Do you remember when this was?  They had a model that had some nasty battery problems.
> 
> Personally, the only Apple product that I had a problem with was an old IIe, which had a severe motherboard frying. Since then, the only reasons I've had for replacements has been extreme obsolescence: my si lasted 8 years, my G3 lasted 10+.
> 
> And up until I got my latest iMac, I was even running some software (mostly graphics & games stuff) from as far back as the 1980s...
> 
> But anyone can make a lemon.  I had a friend whose Volvo spent more time at the dealership's service department than in his own garage...while our 4 lasted an average of 16 years each (and we had one that got totaled in a hit & run after only 5 years).
> 
> And once we bought a big-screen Sony TV for my grandparents that blew out it's CRT when I plugged it in.




Been out of commission due to the power outages in CT...sorry for the lack of a timely response.

I forgot what year it was, but at least the Apple Store near us replaced the first three iPods until the fourth one worked fine.  The first three lasted a few weeks apiece.

The iMac was one of the first ones with the built-in webcam.  The previous version had a recall due to motherboard problems, but the same Apple store refused to budge on the iMac.


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## Fast Learner

High resolution screens help with poor vision since things don't have to be so physically large in order to be readable. 16 point characters on a 96 - 120 dpi screen are somewhat readable with limited vision but the shapes of the characters become much, much sharper at 300+ dpi, which helps way more than you'd think.

Current iPhones are at more than 300 dpi, and iPads will be there soon. Because you can resize things as much as you'd like, you'll always be able to have text you can easily read. 

Here's a 100 year-old visually impaired woman enjoying her new iPad -- her first computer ever -- reading and writing for the first time in many years:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndkIP7ec3O8]Virginia's new iPad - YouTube[/ame]

And that's without the higher resolution.


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## rangerjohn

I realize you can resize the font on a portable device, but then you can't get a whole page width on screen at the same time.  Having to use the bar is very annoying when having to read something.  That also doesn't address the issue of games and movies.  The smallest screen, I've comfortably used was a 17" laptop.  To give you an idea, I'm using my desktop which is hooked to my 32" television.  This with me sitting at the desk.  I can see images across the room, but not text.  I can't read magazine text at all anymore.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

> High resolution screens help with poor vision since things don't have to be so physically large in order to be readable. 16 point characters on a 96 - 120 dpi screen are somewhat readable with limited vision but the shapes of the characters become much, much sharper at 300+ dpi, which helps way more than you'd think.




The whole resizing of text thing was the primary reason I've been talking to my Mom about getting her an eReader or tablet of some kind for a couple of years, now.  She has a few different eye problems, so she has to buy hardcover books just to be able to continue reading.

Well, as of today, her iPad2 is being shipped.  This means she'll be able to get books with type she can read...without cluttering her shelves up with hardcovers she'll read once.  Bonus for her: more space to put Lladro porcelains and Border Collie collectibles.


----------



## Banshee16

Janx said:


> Good write-up on the usage.
> 
> Still not sure that's a clear Android is better story.  $70 buys an Apple bluetooth keyboard for an iPad.  I wonder if having the keyboard right there made it obvious and thus won a fan (whereas, lacking iBoard, didn't make it obvious that it can do the same thing).
> 
> Not saying you're bashing one over the other.  I just don't see a clear difference in actual capability from your story.




A $70 bluetooth keyboard doesn't charge your iPad, or include USB ports or SD card slots does it ?  Those have all been part of the overall utility of the Transformer that I posted about above.....if I'm mistaken, so be it, but the bluetooth keyboards I've seen didn't have those features.....and those features are a big part of why this works.

That having been said, as I mentioned, everyone has different needs.

The iPad also doesn't have file system access, which is another big part of it.  There are apps to do it, but the ones I've tried on my iPhone were very much inferior, as they didn't give full access.  As it is, after a year I have tonnes of orphaned data taking up wasted space on my iPhone, and no way to get at it and clean it out.  I seem to have noticeably less room available on my phone a year after getting it than when I first bought it....even after wiping and resetting the phone.  Either I'm missing something obvious, there are tricks that Apple people know that I don't, or that's just the way it's designed.  Being able to see the files on my device, move them, delete them, send them in e-mails as attachements...all very useful.  I don't understand how someone would NOT find those useful.

And short of carrying around a bunch of attachments, the whole process of taking photos out of the camera was very easy.

One could flip the argument around and say there's nothing you can do with an iPad 2 that you can't do with an Android tablet.  That's why the whole "my device is better than your device" war we see with the two OS' is kind of silly....they're all useful.  Just depends on needs, comfort level, and budget.

Banshee


----------



## Janx

Banshee16 said:


> A $70 bluetooth keyboard doesn't charge your iPad, or include USB ports or SD card slots does it ?  Those have all been part of the overall utility of the Transformer that I posted about above.....if I'm mistaken, so be it, but the bluetooth keyboards I've seen didn't have those features.....and those features are a big part of why this works.
> ...snip of good points....
> One could flip the argument around and say there's nothing you can do with an iPad 2 that you can't do with an Android tablet.  That's why the whole "my device is better than your device" war we see with the two OS' is kind of silly....they're all useful.  Just depends on needs, comfort level, and budget.
> 
> Banshee




technically, for the iPad, I've seen a keyboard dock, that holds the screen at a useful angle.  I assume the iPort powers the keyboard.  I've seen Apple's iPort do-hickey that passes MIDI and USB signals (the camera kit).  i've seen iPort chargy things to add juice for the iThing.  All thru the same iPort (the silly name I call the funny connect on iThings).  It would seem that could be combined into 1 device.

What I been curious if the best of class Android had super powers that the iPad doesn't.  Something so better that we'd all be fools to buy an iPad if we were on the fence.

I too miss direct file management, but I suspect the iThing stayed away from it because the average human can barely manage their documents on a PC (mostly true, I've had to explain how to use My Documents and copying to a thumb drive too many times).

But I limp along mailing files to myself....

I suspect both sides end up liming along with some things, but are plenty happy with the good stuff.


----------



## Banshee16

Janx said:


> technically, for the iPad, I've seen a keyboard dock, that holds the screen at a useful angle.  I assume the iPort powers the keyboard.  I've seen Apple's iPort do-hickey that passes MIDI and USB signals (the camera kit).  i've seen iPort chargy things to add juice for the iThing.  All thru the same iPort (the silly name I call the funny connect on iThings).  It would seem that could be combined into 1 device.
> 
> What I been curious if the best of class Android had super powers that the iPad doesn't.  Something so better that we'd all be fools to buy an iPad if we were on the fence.
> 
> I too miss direct file management, but I suspect the iThing stayed away from it because the average human can barely manage their documents on a PC (mostly true, I've had to explain how to use My Documents and copying to a thumb drive too many times).
> 
> But I limp along mailing files to myself....
> 
> I suspect both sides end up liming along with some things, but are plenty happy with the good stuff.




For whatever reason, though there are different add-ons that individually handle pieces of that functionality, nobody seems to have made an add-on like the Transformer's keyboard that does all of it in one piece of equipment. 

I'm not just harping on Apple in this case.  There's a bluetooth keyboard for the Galaxy Tab 10.1 that has similar limitations...no USB, no ports, and it just holds the tab at one angle.  And also no extra battery.  Those are absolute limitations.

Anyways, I only posted all this because you asked.  Maybe the viewpoint could help someone who's on the fence.

I was a little disappointed that there wasn't an easily located handwriting to text app that I could find....if they're out there, I'm not sure where.  However....after thinking about it....I type at over 100 wpm....faster than I could write with a stylus.  So I'm not even sure if the lack of handwriting recognition matters.

Can you play PS2 games on an iPad2?  Do they make emulators etc?  What about PC games?  I've talked with people on another message board I'm on who are playing Baldur's Gate on their Transformer.....I find that pretty cool.  Admittedly, I don't know if something similar is possible on a stock or jailbroken iPad. 

**actually, just figured that one out.....found some posts online that it's also possible on a jailbroken iPad 2

Banshee


----------



## rangerjohn

I imagine the answer is yes to older pc games no to emulating PS2.  This is no slap at portable devices however.  It's simply very hard to emulate a PS2.  It takes very high end components.  Processor, video card etc.  A lot of PC's can't do it either.


----------



## Janx

rangerjohn said:


> I imagine the answer is yes to older pc games no to emulating PS2.  This is no slap at portable devices however.  It's simply very hard to emulate a PS2.  It takes very high end components.  Processor, video card etc.  A lot of PC's can't do it either.




true enough, even just a couple years ago when I investigated it, PS2 emulators were still piss poor.  Not enough horsepower in PCs yet.

As a note, it's not because the PS2 was made from amazing future tech.  To emulate a processor, generally you create a simulation of that processor in softwarre.  that software must run on a processor fast enough that the load of the virtual processor leaves speed left over to do the work that the game expects to be running at.

Running emulators is sort of a bootleg operation, while cool, not a driving feature for a mainstream tablet user.  Additionally, most people want to play a game made for the tablet, not a game made for a console with a controller they don't have.  Being able to play old games is cool and all, buit not a driving factor for most people.

Of the differences thus far, here's what I smell as significant (wholly my opinion and worth what you paid for it):
direct usb/media ports vs, a dongle with ports
direct data file access vs. email, itunes or drop-box to move files
Flash support vs. no flash*
battery life
fully open app store vs. gatekept app store**
wide mix of HW to support with Android vs. narrow band of HW for iOS to support

There could be more, hopefully I didn't get too nitpicky nor dismissive of anything significant.

*there might be a few browser apps that supply Flash support, instead of Mobile Safari.  Also, one could remote desktop to a PC and use the browser there to run a flash page.
**the trade-off being open seems to be vulnerable to malware, and the gated store bars some apps from being published.

I like my iPad1.  I use it more for personal stuff on the couch than for work.  But then for work, mostly I need a real computer or a notepad to jot things down quickly.  In a way, my iPad has become my "home" computer, and my laptop is my "work" computer.


----------



## Fast Learner

Janx said:


> **the trade-off being open seems to be vulnerable to malware, and the gated store bars some apps from being published.



Lots of apps, not some. That doesn't mean there are lots of rejections, just that potential submissions aren't even made due to the gatekeeper. 

For example, there's a really great iOS app called Instapaper that saves things you read on the web into a super-readable form, which you can subsequently grab with your iOS device and read offline. The developer, Marco Arment, has created a version for Kindle but hasn't yet decided to make one for Android.

Take a gander at the Android Market search for Instapaper: 63 matches, none of which was created by the developer. Every one of those that says it's an "Instapaper client" or such -- at least 21 of the 63 -- is stealing his server's services, most are trading off the brand he worked hard to build, and nearly all of them are actually making money off of what he's built (through ads or by charging for the app). 

He's contacted Google about the violations but the only one he's managed to stop is one that used his exact icon as well as the name. Do the same search in the iOS App Store and there's one match, the actual Instapaper app.

That's 21 apps that would have been rejected by Apple, or if approved, pulled down the moment Marco contacted Apple.

This is just one example among  many thousands. The gatekeeper does a lot more than just protect you from malware (which it does extremely well): it protects developers, it protects intellectual property, and though this seems like an obvious thing, _it ensures the app actually does what it says it does_, something that doesn't happen in the Android Market and that regularly fools people.


----------



## Janx

Fast Learner said:


> This is just one example among  many thousands. The gatekeeper does a lot more than just protect you from malware (which it does extremely well): it protects developers, it protects intellectual property, and though this seems like an obvious thing, _it ensures the app actually does what it says it does_, something that doesn't happen in the Android Market and that regularly fools people.





No argument there.  I like the gatekeeper effect.  lack of a gatekeeper is why Nintendo's game catalog has been sucking on their consoles.  because everybody and their dog could pile crap onto the shelves.  Sony and MS have kept tighter control, which blocks some crap.

Though I've been stuck by the gatekeeper effect, as well.  Apple blocked Sony's Reader app, despite other folks getting theirs in.  So I've got e-books I can't read because I can't get them on my iThing.  I was inches away from reading books my wife bought....

Personally, the negatives haven't outweighed the benefits.  It also helps that I got my iPad for free.  If I was more ambitious, the openness of the Android probably would have meant I could fiddle deeper on it.  But that's not where my head is anymore.


----------



## Banshee16

Janx said:


> true enough, even just a couple years ago when I investigated it, PS2 emulators were still piss poor.  Not enough horsepower in PCs yet.
> 
> As a note, it's not because the PS2 was made from amazing future tech.  To emulate a processor, generally you create a simulation of that processor in softwarre.  that software must run on a processor fast enough that the load of the virtual processor leaves speed left over to do the work that the game expects to be running at.
> 
> Running emulators is sort of a bootleg operation, while cool, not a driving feature for a mainstream tablet user.  Additionally, most people want to play a game made for the tablet, not a game made for a console with a controller they don't have.  Being able to play old games is cool and all, buit not a driving factor for most people.
> 
> Of the differences thus far, here's what I smell as significant (wholly my opinion and worth what you paid for it):
> direct usb/media ports vs, a dongle with ports
> direct data file access vs. email, itunes or drop-box to move files
> Flash support vs. no flash*
> battery life
> fully open app store vs. gatekept app store**
> wide mix of HW to support with Android vs. narrow band of HW for iOS to support
> 
> There could be more, hopefully I didn't get too nitpicky nor dismissive of anything significant.
> 
> *there might be a few browser apps that supply Flash support, instead of Mobile Safari.  Also, one could remote desktop to a PC and use the browser there to run a flash page.
> **the trade-off being open seems to be vulnerable to malware, and the gated store bars some apps from being published.
> 
> I like my iPad1.  I use it more for personal stuff on the couch than for work.  But then for work, mostly I need a real computer or a notepad to jot things down quickly.  In a way, my iPad has become my "home" computer, and my laptop is my "work" computer.




I wouldn't minimize the importance of several of those features.

My *understanding* is that even though the iPad 2 has a dongle it *still* can't replicate several things.  I read on a tech advice column that even *with* the USB dongle, the iPad can only pull stuff *off* a flash drive....it can't put stuff *on* the flash drive from the iPad.

And that for printing, it still requires either a $100 accessory to print to a printer.......or the purchase of a printer that supports Apple Air Print or whatever it's called.

Those two things having been said, that's what the article I had read said.  I can't attest to its veracity, as nobody I know who has an iPad or iPad 2 has paid for any dongles, so they can't do any of that anyways.

I just print whatever I want off my tablet.  Yes, I need a free app for each printer manufacturer, but I've found them available for every printer manufacturer I've needed to work with, and it works fine.

eBook performance is better on iPads though.

I'm not sure if I'm one of the ones who counts the fully open store as a benefit vs. the gatekept one.  There are advantages, but disadvantages as well.  That impacts me far less (and honestly I don't care about it that much) than being able to easily grab any files on my device and send them out by e-mail (including multiple attachments of different documents created by different apps) and send them out in one e-mail, being able to access the file system etc.  In a common workday that's something I depend on.

The few "dongles" I've purchased include an HDMI cable and a USB 3 cable, the two of which cost me a total of $6 from Monoprice.  The HDMI is useful when I have to connect to a projector at a client's prem.

There seem to be more interesting games available for iOS.....though the selection is getting better for the Transformer, it's got a long way to go to catch up.  I don't use many games on it though....I mean, I have several installed, but it's like with business apps....many of them are just more convenient on a phone format.  If I have time to sit down with a larger device, I'm more inclined to go play any number of games on my 360 or PS3, rather than on a tablet.  If I'm on the go, it's more convenient to use the games on my iPhone.  I think that's just a characteristic of tablets though.....regardless of OS.

Incidentally, a friend of mine got the Playbook, and has been using it for several weeks now, and it's a far better device than some of the tech reviewers seem to give it credit for.  Unless the problem is that reviews were done at release, and patches over the last 6 months have fixed things that they were penalizing it for before, I don't get why there's so much hate for it.  It's polished, the OS is slick, it renders webpages faster and better than any iPad or Android tablet, and the battery lasts a lot longer than the 4 hours I read about in some reviews back in April.  I mean, I hang out with my friend for an hour and a half, and he was playing with his tablet the whole time, and it only used maybe 15% of the battery.

I'm interested to see what will happen next year.  If reports of a retina display iPad 3 are true, that'll give it a huge boost, as the 2nd gen Android tablets all seem to be sticking with the 1200x780 (or whatever) resolution screens.

Banshee


----------



## Janx

Banshee16 said:


> My *understand* is that even though the iPad 2 has a dongle it *still* can't replicate several things.  I read on a tech advice column that even *with* the USB dongle, the iPad can only pull stuff *off* a flash drive....it can't put stuff *on* the iPad.
> 
> And that for printing, it still requires either a $100 accessory to print to a printer.......or the purchase of a printer that supports Apple Air Print or whatever it's called.
> ...snips...Banshee





Good point, for practical use, moving files on/off and printing are critical.  Can't replace a PC if you can't readily print.

my network printer doesn't support AirPrint (and at the moment, it quit supporting getting an IP address....).  So I"m stuck using a PC if I needed to print.

sounds like Android has a pretty good attach-rate for printers, so Androiders can probably print if they want.

BB's PlayBook is a wierd anomaly.  Kind of like HP's webOS tablet.  It has some good qualities, but doesn't seem to have the traction to dominate the market.


----------



## falcarrion

For printing off of my ipad I use the printer pro app. As none of the printers I have access to have wifi, this option has worked best for me.It gives alot of options of how to print it.


----------



## Banshee16

falcarrion said:


> For printing off of my ipad I use the printer pro app. As none of the printers I have access to have wifi, this option has worked best for me.It gives alot of options of how to print it.




How does that app work for you?

Is it one where the computer connected to the printer has be on, and you use the app, it sends the job to the printer through the PC, and your stuff gets printed?

The ones for Android require individual apps for each manufacturer.  That's a bit of a pain....but given the apps are like 1.5 mb in size, it's not a big deal.  My printers are Brother and Samsung, and there are apps for each.

Banshee


----------



## Felon

Fast Learner said:


> Aye, any day now there will be a really good Android tablet. Just around the corner.



There already are many tablets that offer excellent functionality. The app market isn't there, which is about as unfortunate as the iPad not running Flash. Since I actually have apps purchased for my iPhone that I'd like to keep using, I'm kind of in a quandry about getting an iPad or something else (like the Sony tablet, or the Asus Slider).

My phone contrct is up, and my poor iPhone is beat. Missing its volume rocker, and music is starting to skip more and more often. I figured I'd jump straight to Android, and there is no shortage of phone available, but that's basically flushing all the apps I purchased the iPhone down the crapper.

And like I said, I don't know how an Android user is expected to manage their content. My understanding is that with an Android phone, files are transferred by copy-and-paste. Also, I've no idea how most folks manage podcasts.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

> which is about as unfortunate as the iPad not running Flash.



Not running Flash is the single issue I've had with my iPod touch...and my brand-spankin'-new iPad2!


----------



## Janx

Felon said:


> There already are many tablets that offer excellent functionality. The app market isn't there, which is about as unfortunate as the iPad not running Flash. Since I actually have apps purchased for my iPhone that I'd like to keep using, I'm kind of in a quandry about getting an iPad or something else (like the Sony tablet, or the Asus Slider).





Thats kind of the problem I see with platform buy-in.  Once you are invested, switching means dumping that investment.

side question: just how much does not having Flash hurt?

I don't browse anywhere that uses Flash as a natural part of where I go online.

So I don't miss it.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

> just how much does not having Flash hurt?




For me, it's a question of lack of access to certain "news" articles that require it, and more recently, discovering the nifty free time-waster games offers on Yahoo.  Some of the games are quite good & challenging, and I've yet to encounter one that WASN'T done in Flash.


----------



## Fast Learner

Running Flash will soon be a moot point since Adobe's no longer planning to pursue mobile Flash, instead focusing on turning Flash apps into native mobile apps and using HTML5 for the mobile web.


----------



## Janx

Fast Learner said:


> Running Flash will soon be a moot point since Adobe's no longer planning to pursue mobile Flash, instead focusing on turning Flash apps into native mobile apps and using HTML5 for the mobile web.




I just saw a similar article Adobe ending mobile Flash Player, cutting 750 jobs - latimes.com and came here to post it....

I'm no big fan of Flash, for no particular reason.  So I'd like to see it die.

I find their logic to be odd.  If HTML5 is supported on all the major mobile devices, would it not also be supported on all the major PC devices?  Therefore, why not just code for HTML5 in the first place...

I suspect we'll continue to have mobile browser issues until everybody who makes web-sites wakes up and considers mobile browsers as part of the supported mix.  That's been the whole crux of the problem, is nobody plans for an Android, iThing to connect to the site.


----------



## falcarrion

Banshee16 said:


> How does that app work for you?
> 
> Is it one where the computer connected to the printer has be on, and you use the app, it sends the job to the printer through the PC, and your stuff gets printed?
> 
> The ones for Android require individual apps for each manufacturer.  That's a bit of a pain....but given the apps are like 1.5 mb in size, it's not a big deal.  My printers are Brother and Samsung, and there are apps for each.
> 
> Banshee




That is correct. I loaded the software on my computer and the app on my ipad. I have had no problems at all when printing. They recomend trying the lite version first to make sure it will work with your system.


----------



## falcarrion

Now that adobe officailly anounced that they are discontinueing mobile flash.
does that mean that the no flash debate is mute?


----------



## Janx

falcarrion said:


> Now that adobe officailly anounced that they are discontinueing mobile flash.
> does that mean that the no flash debate is mute?




I suspect its going to make things worse.

We already have the problem that not all sites support mobile devices.

Flash being a good part of the problem.  By not supporting Flash, we'll have some devices with the last release of Flash out there that work on sites relying on the older flash version.

Then the newest sites will require the newest flash, and those sites won't work.

I suspect web-sites will still be too lazy to actually code for 2 different platforms (mobile vs. PC).

If flash were totally dead (not likely to happen), and everybody used html5, there'd be a pretty good chance every site would render on your mobile and PC devices.  Which was the original point of the html specification.


----------



## Felon

Fast Learner said:


> Running Flash will soon be a moot point since Adobe's no longer planning to pursue mobile Flash, instead focusing on turning Flash apps into native mobile apps and using HTML5 for the mobile web.



How will any of that make Flash moot? The majority of those websites out there that use custom Flash apps aren't likely to decide to reinvent them from the ground up. This is nothing new. Internet Explorer 6 still has a massive foothold in enterprises, despite MS trying to shuffle everyone off at all costs. 

Take my number one reason for wanting Flash: Marvel Digital Comics Unlimited. Marvel has been very slow to make needed adaptations to that interface. Even with the emergence of mobile devices, they're still not making efforts to position it for that market. They just don't want to throw the needed resources at it.


----------



## Fast Learner

Yes, this is the death of Flash. 

Those sites that use it but have absolutely no need to, e.g. restaurants, will take a while to get rid of it, though mostly because they pay so little attention to their websites that they won't bother to change things quickly.

Those sites that use it and have done so because at the time there weren't good alternatives but there are now, e.g. video-based sites, are already replacing it very quickly. Only the TV networks are dragging their feet, but they have been creating mobile apps that serve the same function, so Flash will still be there for another 5 years maximum.

Those sites that use it and haven't had good alternatives in the past, e.g. Flash games, are Adobe's target right now for their Flash-to-app conversion options (limited now, but as they've stated, are now their focus).

Sites built from the ground up will completely avoid Flash. There's a strong theme in web design right now known as "mobile first": design your site so it works great on mobile devices, then for the non-mobile version add only things that are strictly necessary. This not only completely obviates the use of Flash, but it generally produces cleaner and easier to use sites, which is nice.


----------



## Banshee16

Felon said:


> There already are many tablets that offer excellent functionality. The app market isn't there, which is about as unfortunate as the iPad not running Flash. Since I actually have apps purchased for my iPhone that I'd like to keep using, I'm kind of in a quandry about getting an iPad or something else (like the Sony tablet, or the Asus Slider).
> 
> My phone contrct is up, and my poor iPhone is beat. Missing its volume rocker, and music is starting to skip more and more often. I figured I'd jump straight to Android, and there is no shortage of phone available, but that's basically flushing all the apps I purchased the iPhone down the crapper.
> 
> And like I said, I don't know how an Android user is expected to manage their content. My understanding is that with an Android phone, files are transferred by copy-and-paste. Also, I've no idea how most folks manage podcasts.




For managing content, you literally plug your phone or tablet in via USB cable, and drag and drop files via Windows Explorer.  It's that easy.  None of the headaches Apple's been in the past.

If you want to do something like move an iPhone music collection over, you download Doubletwist from the Market (it's a free app), plug your phone in, and it'll sync everything from your iTunes library (or what you designate from that library) to your Android device.  There's a Pro version that's like $4 that includes wireless syncing.

You  have full file system access.  I recommend staying away from your OS directories....but you can create your own directories and subdirectories, see all the files, and put things wherever you want them.

It's really not difficult to use...

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16

Janx said:


> I just saw a similar article Adobe ending mobile Flash Player, cutting 750 jobs - latimes.com and came here to post it....
> 
> I'm no big fan of Flash, for no particular reason.  So I'd like to see it die.
> 
> I find their logic to be odd.  If HTML5 is supported on all the major mobile devices, would it not also be supported on all the major PC devices?  Therefore, why not just code for HTML5 in the first place...




Because HTML 5 isn't capable of half of what Flash is.  Yeah, if you want to just show movies, or have a simple animation on a website, then yeah, HTML 5 will do it, but it's in its infancy compared to Flash, and does not really support the development of rich application environments...which Flash *does*.  I've got friends and business associates who work in companies who do very advanced Flash/Flex/Air application interfaces etc.....and the stuff they do can't be done in HTML 5, and likely won't be able to be done for several years still.  And by the time it *can* be done, likely HTML 5 will have just as many problems as Flash has had.

That stuff is big bucks development though, only really purchased by companies with deep pockets.  The more simple, entertainment related stuff that people on iPod Touches etc. would be intending to look at, can be replaced by HTML 5...hence Apple's stance.  But saying to get rid of it is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

The whole thing is complicated further in that some companies such as RiM have purchased the sourcecode for Flash, and plan on continuing to support it.  Either they have it stuck in their heads to compete against iPad by trumpeting that their devices support Flash, or there are very real business cases.....like that web applications that have been developed by companies who are large RiM clients are based out of Flash (as an example).

Adobe may, like HP, realize that they made a mistake, and reverse the decision, given what they're seeing is happening to their share price since they made this announcement.

Who knows what will happen, longterm?  Adobe's effectively just thrown their community of developers under the bus, and may get a bigger backlash than they expected.

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16

Janx said:


> Thats kind of the problem I see with platform buy-in.  Once you are invested, switching means dumping that investment.
> 
> side question: just how much does not having Flash hurt?
> 
> I don't browse anywhere that uses Flash as a natural part of where I go online.
> 
> So I don't miss it.




There's lots of it out there.  Stuff as simple as NHL.com - The National Hockey League.  The mobile (non-Flash) version of the site isn't nearly as nice as the Flash enabled desktop experience.

As to platform buy in, it's a legitimate problem.  It's somewhat mitigated by the fact that so many apps on Android are free, that are charged for in the App Store.  I haven't really come across any instances where I have to consider paying for an app I already bought on my iPhone.

But......anyone contemplating a jump should do their research, as they may have different selections of apps.  I've got 85 on them on my tablet at the moment, and have only had to pay for 1 (which had no cousin on iOS).

Banshee


----------



## TarionzCousin

How do the Android tablets compare to each other?

Specifically, the Toshiba Thrive vs. the Asus Transformer.

I am not terribly wise in the ways of tablet computatoes. These look about the same to me.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

Style points!

iPad 2 leather covers

E-Reader Sleeves in Leather

Leather covers for cell phones

Kindle Fire covers - Pre-Order

Kindle Touch eReader covers in Leather

Kindle 4 leather covers

E-Reader Sleeves in Leather for large Ereaders


----------



## Zaukrie

I am waiting for the new Asus with the quad core processor. I'd bet money I own that soon after its release.


----------



## TarionzCousin

Zaukrie said:


> I am waiting for the new Asus with the quad core processor. I'd bet money I own that soon after its release.



When is it scheduled to be released?


----------



## Banshee16

TarionzCousin said:


> How do the Android tablets compare to each other?
> 
> Specifically, the Toshiba Thrive vs. the Asus Transformer.
> 
> I am not terribly wise in the ways of tablet computatoes. These look about the same to me.




Hmm....depends on what you're looking for.

Most polished

Samsung Galaxy Tab 10.1
-this one has the cleanest lines, and is the most "Apple-like" in terms of polish.  It's accused of being an Apple knockoff, but it's a completely different aspect ratio and runs Android instead of iOS so they're very obviously different.
-this is for users who don't care about expandable memory, keyboards or anything like that.
-this one probably has the best screen overall.

ASUS Transformer
-this one is a pretty good take on a tablet+netbook.  It has an accessory that is a keyboard that clips right onto it, and literally turns it into a netbook.  It replaces the software keyboard, and being able to type 100 wpm on your tablet, then take the screen off to use it as a tablet is pretty cool
-this one has had *some* build quality issues.  Really depends...some users have no problems, others have had creakiness, or issues with speakers not being loud enough, etc.
-this one has an excellent IPS display....bright, great viewing angles.  I like the screen better than the one on the Galaxy Tab 10.1, but as measured "scientifically" supposedly the one on the 10.1 is better.  My issue is that I find Samsung tends to set their screens to be oversaturated colour wise...it makes them display great in the store, but they're not true to colour.  I've had the same issues with Samsung LCD monitors and TVs.
-this one's good from a connectivity standpoint...microSD, microHDMI on the tablet, and SD and USB (2x) on the keyboard.
-it also has unlimited web storage, comes with Splashtop so you can do a virtual desktop with your PC etc.
-very fast updates.  Probably.
-very long battery life.  I've got 20 hours of actual use out of mine, when docked to the keyboard.  That's a combination of writing e-mails, surfing the web, watching videos, downloading apps, etc.

Motorola Xoom
-good, solid build.
-screen not so great.
-first Honeycomb tablet
-microHDMI and micro SD card slot and micro USB
-there were issues with features not working, as a result of the tablet being the first to market.  However, most of the issues have been resolved after 9 months of software updates, I think.....as long as you live in the U.S.  If you're outside the U.S. Motorola support leaves a lot to be desired.

Acer A500
-seems like a solid build.
-screen is bright, but there have been criticisms of quality.
-full size USB and SD card slots, I think.

Sony has some interesting ones with very different form factors.  I've seen one of them in the store, and it seems neat, but the form factor is....odd.....it's not flat....it's more like a magazine folded back over itself, so it has one really thing edge, and one fatter edge.
-it plays some Playstation games, I believe.

LG has an Optimus pad that, if it's anything like their phones, actually does 3D right on the screen, without glasses.  It can also shoot 3D video.  Aside from those characteristics, I don't know much about it.

Toshiba Thrive.  I was very interested in this one originally.  Replaceable battery, full size SD and USB ports, full size HDMI.  Nice grippy back so it doesn't slip.  Battery life is supposedly not great.  Don't know about the screen.

There are ALOT of Android tabs....so it's difficult to name them all, and the respective advantages of each.

The new ASUS Transformer Prime is looking really good........all the features of the original, including a keyboard, but the whole thing made of aluminium instead of plastic, a quad core processor (purported to be as powerful as an XBox 360), longer battery life, a flash on the camera, better speakers, a built in subwoofer, and running the newest version of Android.

Banshee

P.S. To be clear, I am *not* an unbiased reviewer, as I own an ASUS Transformer and the dock that you can buy for it.  I have got a lot of use out of them, so I'm partial.  I just want to make that clear.  That having been said, I still think the iPad 2 is neat, as are several Android tablets.


----------



## Banshee16

TarionzCousin said:


> How do the Android tablets compare to each other?
> 
> Specifically, the Toshiba Thrive vs. the Asus Transformer.
> 
> I am not terribly wise in the ways of tablet computatoes. These look about the same to me.




Hmm...I just found a cool feature of the Android Market.  I didn't realize it before, but apparently you can "try before you buy" with apps.  Basically, if you purchase an app, you have 15 minutes during which you can try it out and if you don't like it "return it", and get your money back.

That's actually kind of useful..

Adobe's family of design products are now live in the Market.

Adobe Ideas Touch App | Vector touchscreen drawing programs

Banshee


----------



## falcarrion

If your looking for more cloud storage. PoGoplug is giving away 5g of free storage if you sign up. I read there is an Android app as well as a IOS app.


----------



## Banshee16

falcarrion said:


> If your looking for more cloud storage. PoGoplug is giving away 5g of free storage if you sign up. I read there is an Android app as well as a IOS app.




Thanks for the tip!  That would help for my iPhone.  My tablet has unlimited storage, so it's less of an issue.  The only difference being that I have no control over what pieces of content I want to make available to someone else, unlike Dropbox.

I haven't used PoGoplug yet, so I'll see how it compares.

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16

Netflix just redesigned the Android tablet app.....the new version is actually a big improvement.  No app download necessary.  Just works as soon as you turn Netflix on.

It seems lately like the rate at which new apps are getting onto the Android tablets appears to be picking up.  Possibly developers are starting to step up their game what with the upcoming Ice Cream Sandwich launch.

Banshee


----------



## John Crichton

Been playing with my Kindle Fire today.  It's, as expected, very amazon-centric with very little in terms of Android trappings.  I like it so far as I own a decent chunk of amazon.com media.  I do like the library feature so far.  The screen is really good and on par with the iPad 2.

Uploading some magazines and the Pathfinder Core book PDF right now so we'll see how that goes.


----------



## IronWolf

John Crichton said:


> Uploading some magazines and the Pathfinder Core book PDF right now so we'll see how that goes.




Anxious to hear how it handles the Pathfinder PDFs in terms of performance and rendering.


----------



## John Crichton

IronWolf said:


> Anxious to hear how it handles the Pathfinder PDFs in terms of performance and rendering.



SLOW so far.  Not sure if it's the Adobe reader or the file size.  Gonna try the individual chapters and another few readers to see if it speeds up the render time.

EDIT:  This is kinda obvious but the screen size makes a huge difference.  RPG books are in no way optimized for viewing on a Kindle.  The iPad screen is just about the perfect size for that.


----------



## IronWolf

John Crichton said:


> SLOW so far.  Not sure if it's the Adobe reader or the file size.  Gonna try the individual chapters and another few readers to see if it speeds up the render time.




The Paizo PDFs seem to be the ultimate test of any tablet PDF reader! I know they like their artwork to look the way as intended, but I wish they offered a trimmed down, less layered PDF for tablet use. 



			
				John Crichton said:
			
		

> EDIT:  This is kinda obvious but the screen size makes a huge difference.  RPG books are in no way optimized for viewing on a Kindle.  The iPad screen is just about the perfect size for that.




Yeah, I know a lot of the manufacturers keep talking about the 7" screen, but I really don't want anything smaller than the iPad screen for exactly this reason. The iPad screen coupled with GoodReader cropping settings work out just about perfect.


----------



## John Crichton

Yup.  

The novels and anything similar optimized for the Kindle Fire are great.  The web browser and all the amazon stuff also works perfectly (as it should!).  Netflix is a little down on the quality of streaming but that could be my wireless connection.

But yeah, this little sucker won't be used at the gaming table anytime soon unless it's for a mapping app or web browsing.  The PFSRD fits on the screen just fine, BTW.

EDIT:  I do like that I can watch shows on network TV sites (tried CBS.com so far) without having to use an app.


----------



## John Crichton

IronWolf said:


> The Paizo PDFs seem to be the ultimate test of any tablet PDF reader! I know they like their artwork to look the way as intended, but I wish they offered a trimmed down, less layered PDF for tablet use.



Absolutely.  A trimmed down, B&W version would be perfect for folks like us.


----------



## Felon

Banshee16 said:


> Sony has some interesting ones with very different form factors.  I've seen one of them in the store, and it seems neat, but the form factor is....odd.....it's not flat....it's more like a magazine folded back over itself, so it has one really thing edge, and one fatter edge.
> -it plays some Playstation games, I believe.



This would be at the top of my list, or among the top picks at least, for an Android tab. The folded magazine design is nifty. It doesn't really run PS games, just a small selection of PS games that are converted to Android (same goes for the Experia play smartphone). Like many tablets, it's simply a bit too too expensive to justify, based puerly on specs.


----------



## Felon

I've bought a Kindle Fire for myself and my mother. Mom's retiired and doesn't leave the house too much, so she can make good use of the wifi-oriented cloud services. 

I'll probably return mine. It's not very convenient to rely on a wifi-only cloud device when commuting, which is mainly when I'd be using it. I have a nice computer at home. Moreover, I attempted to connect to the wifi at work, and when iit notifies me that a login was required, a blank page opens. 

I tried the Marvel Digital Unlmited flash player, and it froze up almost immediately. No point in allowing Flash to run on your device if it's just to crash (which, of course, is Apple's point in the first place). My biggest complaint, however, is that there seems to be no accessibility option for magnifying the screen or increasing text size, and text size often quite unacceptably small. 

Other than that, it's great. Except that it's a thoroughly unattractive black rectangle. Still, for $199, what can one expect?

Well, for $50 more, one can expect the Nook Tablet, with double the memory and a micro-SD slot. And, perhaps more important to me, a microphone to allow dictation apps to run. I ordered one of these as well, planning to return one or both with a couple weeks. When I went through checkout, I was offered a $10 discount if I became a B&N member. I figured, "why not". The discount was not applied. A ticket with Nook customer has produced amusing results. 

It would seem a simple matter to look up an order and see that a discount was not applied, and then apply credit to the card used. Amazon has no trouble doing so, but for Barnes & Noble this is a lofty proposition beyond their capabilities. They want my member ID number and one of three sets of data. I provide that. The next day they follow-up by asking for the SN of the tablet (which hasn't shipped yet) and credit card information. This is all predicated, they say, out of a desire to pretect my "security and privacy". I keep looking at that address, service[MENTION=6674266]Ba[/MENTION]rnesandnoble.com, to see if I'm getting scammed. No such luck!


----------



## Banshee16

Felon said:


> I tried the Marvel Digital Unlmited flash player, and it froze up almost immediately. No point in allowing Flash to run on your device if it's just to crash (which, of course, is Apple's point in the first place). My biggest complaint, however, is that there seems to be no accessibility option for magnifying the screen or increasing text size, and text size often quite unacceptably small.




Flash works plenty fine on mobile.  I haven't had it crash a single time in three months.  Is it buttery smooth 100% of the time?  No.  Does it frequently crash?  No.

Could you use a set of headphones with a built in mic?

Admittedly the lack of support for expandable memory is a big no for me.......that, and that most Amazon services enabled by the Fire are not supported in Canada.

Banshee


----------



## Felon

Banshee16 said:


> Flash works plenty fine on mobile.  I haven't had it crash a single time in three months.  Is it buttery smooth 100% of the time?  No.  Does it frequently crash? No[/.QUOTE]
> ???
> 
> You've been using the Kindle Fire for three months now? And to view Marvel Digital Unlimited comics?
> 
> Or are you making a blanket statement about how all flash sites work on all mobile devices?


----------



## Felon

I called my mother up last night to check on how her Kindle Fire is working out. It isn't. It regards her wifi as having open security, rather than WPA PSK. Thus, there is never a prompt for a password, thus she never truly has access, thus she can't touch all those cloud services that the Kindle is all about. And this is one of those issues where neither her ISP or Amazon customer service is likely to be of much help, because it's always the other guy's fault.

So far, big thumbs down on the Fire.


----------



## John Crichton

To offer a counterpoint, our wireless works just fine with the Kindle Fire.  As do the other dozen wireless devices in our household.


----------



## Villano

I got the Kindle Fire on Friday and I think it's great.  Granted, I don't have a Nook or iPad to compare it to, but it does what I bought it to do.  I searched the internet (no problems with the wireless), watched a few video clips, and I downloaded a comic from Amazon and a free preview comic from Comixology.

Since I plan on going digital with my monthly comics, the readablity on the Kindle's small screen was one of my concerns.  I had absolutely no problem with the Comixology one.  I love the panel-to-panel "guided view" on the Comixology app.

I couldn't zoom in on panels on the Amazon comic.  The zoom only made the page slightly larger, but I didn't have any problem reading it (to me, it was no different than reading a digest sized comic).  However, I'd understand if this was an issue for other people.

The only thing I don't like about the device is the lack of buttons.  You have an on/off and that's it.  Everything else is on the touchscreen.  I'd kill for up and down scroll buttons (when scrolling on Comixolgy, I kept accidentally clicking things).  Plus, I have to keep an eyeglass cleaning cloth handy because the stupid screen ends up covered in fingerprints.  

But the good outweighs the bad, so, overall, not bad for $199.


----------



## Banshee16

Felon said:


> Banshee16 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Flash works plenty fine on mobile.  I haven't had it crash a single time in three months.  Is it buttery smooth 100% of the time?  No.  Does it frequently crash? No[/.QUOTE]
> ???
> 
> You've been using the Kindle Fire for three months now? And to view Marvel Digital Unlimited comics?
> 
> Or are you making a blanket statement about how all flash sites work on all mobile devices?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm specifically addressing your statement that "No point in allow Flash to run on your device if it's just to crash (which, of course, is Apple's point in the first place)".
> 
> I was simply pointing out that Flash does indeed work on different types of mobile devices, without crashing (or without crashing more than any other application).
> 
> That's the extent of the point that I'm making.
> 
> Amazon's got their Silk browser, and it's proprietary to them, from what I understand.  It's entirely possible that the crash you experienced was just a fluke, or possibly it's a result of changes that they've made in their own browser.
> 
> Apple doesn't have a lot of credibility with *some* of their statements....."Flash doesn't work on mobile", "only the iPhone 4S is powerful enough to have Siri" etc. etc.
> 
> This is not to say that Flash can't crash, and it *can* cause security holes in an OS and serve as a vector for attacks....my work laptop got damaged this summer via an attack through Flash.  But security analysts I've read have pointed out that Flash is no more vulnerable than many other technologies used online.
> 
> That's neither here nor there, however.  Hopefully my first few paragraphs clarified where my statement was coming from.
> 
> I don't know enough about the Fire to contribute anything more about it.  There are none available for sale in my area, so I haven't seen one.  I can only say that on devices like the Transformer, or the Playbook, it works fine...admittedly, it works WAY better on the Playbook than it does on Android.
> 
> Banshee
Click to expand...


----------



## Banshee16

Felon said:


> I called my mother up last night to check on how her Kindle Fire is working out. It isn't. It regards her wifi as having open security, rather than WPA PSK. Thus, there is never a prompt for a password, thus she never truly has access, thus she can't touch all those cloud services that the Kindle is all about. And this is one of those issues where neither her ISP or Amazon customer service is likely to be of much help, because it's always the other guy's fault.
> 
> So far, big thumbs down on the Fire.




That's too bad.  The interface certainly looks pretty online.  It's *possible* that this problem has to do with how her WiFi network is set up.  I'm not saying it IS...I'm just saying it possibly is.  My brother found a flaw in the Android WiFi connection capability through a problem he encountered at his workplace.  

He was at work with his Samsung Galaxy S II, and his network admins started experiencing problems with *a* network printer they had running on their network.  They started testing, and found that it was getting booted off the network.....they did more testing, and figured out it was his phone that was doing it.  They had the printer set to connect via DHCP for some reason, which is a sub-optimal setup from what I understand, and they were having their routers handout IPs in the same default range that most people have their home routers hand out.  *Apparently* Android has a problem where if your device is connected to WiFi and goes into sleep mode, and then comes out of sleep mode in a new environment where there is also WiFi, it doesn't release its IP, and instead, will go out and use the same IP it had been using before.....resulting in it kicking off any devices using that same IP address, in the new environment.  It's a very difficult problem to diagnose, because it's dependent upon the router in question having a maxed out number of devices connecting to it.....so if there were only 2 or 3 devices connected to that router, when device #3 got kicked off by the incoming Android device, it would simply be assigned IP#4.  But if there were 200 devices connected to that router, it would be a different story.

Anyways, I'm not suggesting your mother has 200 devices running on her router....just that there are apparently some peculiarities to how Android manages connections, and certain router configurations feed those problems, whereas other configurations don't let the problems happen.

When diagnosing that problem, they found that Princeton's network team had actually isolated the problem and reported it to both Google and Apple in the spring (this happened on iOS devices as well but Apple fixed the problem a few weeks after it was found, whereas Google has not).

Banshee


----------



## John Crichton

Banshee16 said:


> That's too bad.  The interface certainly looks pretty online.  It's *possible* that this problem has to do with how her WiFi network is set up.



It's a problem with her wi-fi.  Ours works fine and there would be massive reports online if there were other problems like hers.


----------



## Fast Learner

Banshee16 said:


> Apple doesn't have a lot of credibility with *some* of their statements....."Flash doesn't work on mobile"



Would love to see an example of Flash working on mobile back when they said that.



> "only the iPhone 4S is powerful enough to have Siri" etc. etc.



Would love to see where they ever said that.


----------



## Banshee16

Fast Learner said:


> Would love to see an example of Flash working on mobile back when they said that.
> 
> 
> Would love to see where they ever said that.




Here you go...

Apple: Siri Only Works On iPhone 4S, We Have No Plans To Support Older Devices | TechCrunch

And apparently French developers have shown that only a single line of code prevents Siri from running on....iPhone 4, iPhone 3GS, Android phones, Windows Phone 7 phones, etc.

“One line of code” prevents Siri voice command for iPhone 4S from coming to Android | Gadget Helpline

Seems to rather contradict the statements made at the first link.

Anyways, it's severely off topic, so let's not continue this part of the discussion.

As  to Flash not working on mobile.....at the time Jobs made that statement, I don't honestly know if Flash worked yet on any mobile devices.....maybe test units?  But obviously he was incorrect as a whole bunch of devices came out that *did* run Flash on mobile.

Try it on a Playbook.  It's seamless.  I wouldn't buy a specific tablet JUST to get Flash though.  It doesn't matter enough to me.

Banshee


----------



## Umbran

Banshee16 said:


> As  to Flash not working on mobile.....at the time Jobs made that statement, I don't honestly know if Flash worked yet on any mobile devices.....maybe test units?  But obviously he was incorrect as a whole bunch of devices came out that *did* run Flash on mobile.




Heck, even the Nook Tablet is supposed to support Flash at this point.

It makes me wonder how well the Nook Tablet browser would support my Marvel Comics Digital Unlimited subscription....


----------



## nedjer

The Nook is a win option for those living in the US. I don't doubt there'll be a few driver glitches initially, (Android's more Windows than Mac in that respect), but it has the grunt and SD to handle the likes of Flash better than most. I'd already have one if I lived in the US. Over here its $500 for a comparable system.


----------



## GMforPowergamers

Umbran said:


> Heck, even the Nook Tablet is supposed to support Flash at this point.
> 
> It makes me wonder how well the Nook Tablet browser would support my Marvel Comics Digital Unlimited subscription....




BARNES & NOBLE | NOOK Tablet? says they have a deal for marvel trades, so I assume (dangerus I know) that it must be built with it in mind.


I am considering one, since we just bought one for my mother for christmas, but I still really want to hold out for the ipad...


----------



## Felon

Villano said:


> But the good outweighs the bad, so, overall, not bad for $199.



Question: Do you have any trouble with the menus or the native apps, like Email? Is your vision 20/20? Mine is not, and I find it pretty insane that Amazon has made the design choices for display that they have. The font is stuck at a tiny size, and what's even more uancceptable is the color scheme: grey text on a grey background. Squinting my way through the settings menus, I find no options to change text size or contrast, no zoom, no magnifier, no nothin'. Can't imagine what they were thinking. If you want a device to succeed in the mainstream market, you gotta make alloances for all the people out there wearing glasses.


----------



## Fast Learner

Banshee16 said:


> Here you go...
> 
> Apple: Siri Only Works On iPhone 4S, We Have No Plans To Support Older Devices | TechCrunch




"Siri only works on iPhone 4S and we currently have no plans to support older devices" is not "only the iPhone 4S hardware is capable of running Siri". It's "we only provide Siri on the 4S and do not plan to provide it on older devices". Nothing is said of whether the hardware of older devices is sufficient.


----------



## Felon

Umbran said:


> Heck, even the Nook Tablet is supposed to support Flash at this point.
> 
> It makes me wonder how well the Nook Tablet browser would support my Marvel Comics Digital Unlimited subscription....






GMforPowergamers said:


> BARNES & NOBLE | NOOK Tablet? says they have a deal for marvel trades, so I assume (dangerus I know) that it must be built with it in mind....



I'm afraid it's going to be very much the opposite. If B&N is arranging exclusivity with Marvel, then pushing a digital comics service that Marvel's had for years isn't going to accomplish that. Also, the MCDU is something of a resource hog, so it may well overtax the Nook tab (although it does have more RAM than the Kindle Fire). 

What they're probably talking about is selling a select group of Marvel trades in digital form.


----------



## Umbran

Yes.  They have Marvel trade paperbacks in digital form, sold as books.  

And I don't expect special support for MDCU.  I'm just wondering if the Flash support is complete, the memory/processor has the oomph, and the screen size ends up with acceptable viewing.

I'm not really in the market for a $500 tablet.  Just don't have the desire to use one quite that much - I'd put that kind of money into a new laptop.  However, at $250 I start looking at whether the thing would do what I'd really want to use the thing for, because I have an X-mas list to fill out.


----------



## Villano

Felon said:


> Question: Do you have any trouble with the menus or the native apps, like Email? Is your vision 20/20? Mine is not, and I find it pretty insane that Amazon has made the design choices for display that they have. The font is stuck at a tiny size, and what's even more uancceptable is the color scheme: grey text on a grey background. Squinting my way through the settings menus, I find no options to change text size or contrast, no zoom, no magnifier, no nothin'. Can't imagine what they were thinking. If you want a device to succeed in the mainstream market, you gotta make alloances for all the people out there wearing glasses.




I'm not having any problem reading the screen, and I can't even see the giant E on an eye chart without my glasses.


----------



## TarionzCousin

Villano said:


> I'm not having any problem reading the screen, and I can't even see the giant E on an eye chart without my glasses.



That's actually a giant C.


----------



## Felon

Villano said:


> I'm not having any problem reading the screen, and I can't even see the giant E on an eye chart without my glasses.




OK, let's back up a second. Maybe we're looking at different screens. Do you have grey-on-grey for your menus? Is the font small, like maybe a 5-point font? Because if that's all true, and you don't consider that hard to read, then you're doing better in the vision department than you might think.


----------



## Villano

Felon said:


> OK, let's back up a second. Maybe we're looking at different screens. Do you have grey-on-grey for your menus? Is the font small, like maybe a 5-point font? Because if that's all true, and you don't consider that hard to read, then you're doing better in the vision department than you might think.




You're talking about the Kindle Fire, right?  The _color_ Kindle?

The only menu that I'm seeing that's grey on grey is the e-mail app.  Everything else I've seen is white on grey.


----------



## Felon

Yeah, email would be the main thing. Also, the settings menus are grey-on-grey. This is apparently a default color scheme for Android devices, as I discovered when I started using my new Skyrocket phone  yesterday. So far, that's been a happy discovery. The only hassle is finding that the iPhone, in true Apple fashion, does not provide any means for storing contacts on a SIM card, despite having a SIM card slot.

Wanted to let you guys know that this weekend BuyDig.com is selling the Toshiba Thrive for a discount using the code SDEALS070. Comes to $300 with free shipping. Compared to $200 for the Fire and $250 for the Nook tab, the Thrive offers a lot more bang for the buck. 

Btw, my pre-ordered Nook tab never arrived. It was scheduled by UPS for a Tuesday delivery, then a Wednesday delivery, and then the last notice said that it had been transferred to the post office for delivery. Can you dig that? Pick up the package, sit on it for a couple days, then drop it off at the post office. Pretty sweet way to make a living.


----------



## Banshee16

Felon said:


> Yeah, email would be the main thing. Also, the settings menus are grey-on-grey. This is apparently a default color scheme for Android devices, as I discovered when I started using my new Skyrocket phone  yesterday. So far, that's been a happy discovery. The only hassle is finding that the iPhone, in true Apple fashion, does not provide any means for storing contacts on a SIM card, despite having a SIM card slot.
> 
> Wanted to let you guys know that this weekend BuyDig.com is selling the Toshiba Thrive for a discount using the code SDEALS070. Comes to $300 with free shipping. Compared to $200 for the Fire and $250 for the Nook tab, the Thrive offers a lot more bang for the buck.
> 
> Btw, my pre-ordered Nook tab never arrived. It was scheduled by UPS for a Tuesday delivery, then a Wednesday delivery, and then the last notice said that it had been transferred to the post office for delivery. Can you dig that? Pick up the package, sit on it for a couple days, then drop it off at the post office. Pretty sweet way to make a living.




As I understand it, there are several great sales on Android tablets this weekend....Transformer, A500, Lenovo, etc.  Particularly the ones that came out earlier in the year.

If you get the Thrive, I'd be interested in hearing what it's like.  It looked really interesting initially....but I ended up hearing from some reviews that the screen wasn't so great.  In the store, at least, it looks pretty solid, and a replaceable batter seems like a great idea.  Plus all those ports.  

I saw the Razr in Costco yesterday....looks like a solid phone.

Banshee


----------



## JoeGKushner

I dig the Toshiba THrive. I've used MicroSD, USB and otherbits with it. The video taking thing is cool. THe screen seems fine to me but I'm definately not an expert. Reading PDFs is farily straightforward and I can see why PDF would hold tremendous appeal in this format. I've read several ebooks in this format as well. Good stuff as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## Banshee16

JoeGKushner said:


> I dig the Toshiba THrive. I've used MicroSD, USB and otherbits with it. The video taking thing is cool. THe screen seems fine to me but I'm definately not an expert. Reading PDFs is farily straightforward and I can see why PDF would hold tremendous appeal in this format. I've read several ebooks in this format as well. Good stuff as far as I'm concerned.




That's cool to hear.  The idea of having all those ports directly on the tablet is pretty cool.  

How do you find PDFs?  Generally they work well on my Transformer.....a few seem to really choke it, and I'm not sure why....my copy of Oathbound Seven, the Pathfinder rules adaptation of the Oathbound setting.  Even though it's no bigger in terms of file size than other PDFs I read, for some reason it just makes the tablet gag.  Other PDFs of comparable size seem to work fine, like the ones from Alluria Publishing work fine.

Banshee


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

And of course, nonsense like this doesn't make ANY consumer happy:

Finding and cleaning out your smartphone’s Carrier IQ poison | ZDNet


----------



## JoeGKushner

Banshee16 said:


> That's cool to hear.  The idea of having all those ports directly on the tablet is pretty cool.
> 
> How do you find PDFs?  Generally they work well on my Transformer.....a few seem to really choke it, and I'm not sure why....my copy of Oathbound Seven, the Pathfinder rules adaptation of the Oathbound setting.  Even though it's no bigger in terms of file size than other PDFs I read, for some reason it just makes the tablet gag.  Other PDFs of comparable size seem to work fine, like the ones from Alluria Publishing work fine.
> 
> Banshee




I've read the old Doctor Who boxed set, Primeval (the BBC show, I have a preprint of the game in PDF that I used last Gen Con to run games), the Laundry, a few Rise of the Runelord PDFs (1st two), and a few others but I haven't had any problems. 

I have NOT however, used anything like Pathfinder as I do not own it in PDF. 

I hope that publishers, like Green Ronin, start working on PDF's optimized for the Tablets in the future. It only seems to make sense that they can go lighter on the graphics, better layout for that type of format, and more use of the material it presents?


----------



## IronWolf

JoeGKushner said:


> I hope that publishers, like Green Ronin, start working on PDF's optimized for the Tablets in the future. It only seems to make sense that they can go lighter on the graphics, better layout for that type of format, and more use of the material it presents?




Yeah, I wish Paizo would release a tablet friendly PDF of their products. They render pretty well on my Gen 1 iPad with GoodReader, but I suspect they could be lightning quick with some toning down of the PDF in a tablet friendly weight.


----------



## Umbran

So, I happened to be down at our local Barnes & Noble this evening, so I fiddled with the Nook Tablet.

Specifically, I pointed its browser at marvel.com, where there are always a couple of their digital books you can read for free for promotional purposes.

I flipped though a couple of pages.  The screen isn't an ideal size, no.  But few things for under $500 are going to be.  The image quality was good however.  It was a little slow, but since I was in-store, where there were probably dozes of people using the wifi, so I don't know if that's telling.  Overall, it seemed to manage okay.  I didn't read through the whole book, or multiple books in one sitting, to know if it would flake out after time or volume, though.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

I know the top of the line Nook is supposed to have an 8 hour operational battery life, same as a comparable Kindle.


----------



## falcarrion

I see the Dell streak 7 will no longer be sold.


----------



## Felon

Banshee16 said:


> As I understand it, there are several great sales on Android tablets this weekend....Transformer, A500, Lenovo, etc.  Particularly the ones that came out earlier in the year.
> 
> If you get the Thrive, I'd be interested in hearing what it's like.  It looked really interesting initially....but I ended up hearing from some reviews that the screen wasn't so great.  In the store, at least, it looks pretty solid, and a replaceable batter seems like a great idea.  Plus all those ports.
> 
> I saw the Razr in Costco yesterday....looks like a solid phone.



I got the Thrive. It's great. No problems with the screen. Anything you want me to try on it, just ask. Gonna take a shot at Skype next.

Having a microphone is actually a pretty big deal with an Android tablet. There's so much you can do without ever touching a keyboard.


----------



## JoeGKushner

https://market.android.com/details?...RfYXBwc19VU19fMV9wcm9tb18xMzIzMTk3ODYwNTMyIl0.

Some good stuff there. Sketchbook mobile is fun but I'm still getting the hang of it. Wish I had bought a better 'pointer'. SPeaking of which, anyone have any recommendations?

Papercamera is also fun. That's where I got my avatar on Facebook.

Just picked up Minecraft.

And man, everyone who owns an android device MUST check out the free app a day from Amazon. It's not that they're all great, but hey, the price is right and there are some GOOD apps that pop up.


----------



## falcarrion

Morrus has an iphone app he is testing out. check out the info in general discussions. it also works on the itouch 4.


----------



## Felon

falcarrion said:


> Morrus has an iphone app he is testing out. check out the info in general discussions. it also works on the itouch 4.



Wonder when the Android version will be available?

Google Executive Chairman seems to think it's nuts that programs are developed for Android only as an afterthought, if at all.

Google's Schmidt: Android leads the iPhone | Deep Tech - CNET News


----------



## JoeGKushner

Moe apps for 10 cent today and also at the Amazon market. Good move.


----------



## Alan Shutko

Bad double post alan.


----------



## Alan Shutko

Felon said:


> Google Executive Chairman seems to think it's nuts that programs are developed for Android only as an afterthought, if at all.




That's because it's more fun to develop for iOS. I credit the relative scarcity of XML for that fun.


----------



## Fast Learner

Felon said:


> Wonder when the Android version will be available?
> 
> Google Executive Chairman seems to think it's nuts that programs are developed for Android only as an afterthought, if at all.
> 
> Google's Schmidt: Android leads the iPhone | Deep Tech - CNET News




The same Eric Schmidt who said, among many other creepy things:

"More and more searches are done on your behalf without you needing to type. I actually think most people don't want Google to answer their questions...They want Google to tell them what they should be doing next."

and

"Google policy is to get right up to the creepy line and not cross it."


----------



## Ebonyr

Does the Thrive come with Honeycomb or Ice Cream Sandwich?


----------



## Felon

Fast Learner said:


> The same Eric Schmidt who said, among many other creepy things:
> 
> "More and more searches are done on your behalf without you needing to type. I actually think most people don't want Google to answer their questions...They want Google to tell them what they should be doing next."
> 
> and
> 
> "Google policy is to get right up to the creepy line and not cross it."



I guess. What's your point, besides advancing a unilaterally pro-Apple spin?


----------



## Felon

Ebonyr said:


> Does the Thrive come with Honeycomb or Ice Cream Sandwich?



My understanding is that the only ICS tablet to date is a cheap-o $100 model released in China.

Whether the Thrive will get an official version of ICS is a toss-up.

Btw, OnLive games has just released an Android app that I've installed on the Thrieve and the Skyrocket. Scant few touch-compatible games--LA Noire being the only notable one so far--but still, it's a big step. The Kindle Fire is supposed to get OnLive as well, and since it has no way to connect an input device (either wired or wifi), they'll have to start making more games touch-ready.


----------



## Fast Learner

Felon said:


> I guess. What's your point, besides advancing a unilaterally pro-Apple spin?




My point is that Schmidt says nutty things, to the degree and regularity that anything he says is better ignored.

I'm not unilaterally pro-Apple. I thought the Palm Pre was pretty sweet, and the new Windows Phone 7 is great.

I just think Android has far more flaws than it's worth, compared to the alternatives. If the Windows Phone app store takes off at all, I'd happily recommend it along with the iPhone.


----------



## Felon

Fast Learner said:


> My point is that Schmidt says nutty things, to the degree and regularity that anything he says is better ignored.



Neither of the quotes you provided seem particularly loopy. What I find nutty is that people insist on building cults of personality around a company's executives because they have the impulse to slap a face on something that's essentially faceless. Corporate executives are mostly dull, straight-laced people (the occasionaly weekend in Bangkok notwithstanding).


----------



## TarionzCousin

Asus Transformer Prime appears to have had its distribution date moved back to January, but there are also reviews and perhaps reports that it has already been on sale in Canada.

Does anyone have first-hand experience with this? Or a reliable source? Or free candy?


----------



## Banshee16

TarionzCousin said:


> Asus Transformer Prime appears to have had its distribution date moved back to January, but there are also reviews and perhaps reports that it has already been on sale in Canada.
> 
> Does anyone have first-hand experience with this? Or a reliable source? Or free candy?




It's out, from what I understand.  I post over at Asus Transformer Tablet Forum and there have been several people posting in the last few days that their orders have shipped and some are starting to post (including photos) about theirs arriving.

It looks good.....real good.  Almost makes me regret getting the TF101 4 months ago.....I've gotten a lot of use out of the first generation Transformer, but the Prime looks more solid, faster, and just much nicer looking.

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16

Fast Learner said:


> My point is that Schmidt says nutty things, to the degree and regularity that anything he says is better ignored.
> 
> I'm not unilaterally pro-Apple. I thought the Palm Pre was pretty sweet, and the new Windows Phone 7 is great.
> 
> I just think Android has far more flaws than it's worth, compared to the alternatives. If the Windows Phone app store takes off at all, I'd happily recommend it along with the iPhone.




He's  not the only executive who says nutty things....or just isn't a nice person, period.  But then, in most cases, execs aren't paid to be nice people.

As to some of his statements being "nutty"....well, some at least, may not be looking as nutty a few more months out.  Android passed iOS for overall total of users on the Facebook app, and appears to be pulling away.  Facebook has now launched Timelines for the Android app first, and some writers are mentioning it may be a sign of a turning point, with more app developers starting to launch on Android first.  Even a few weeks ago, this didn't seem possible, but we'll see I guess.  Maybe Schmidt won't be wrong in the long run.

I was just looking at the Galaxy Nexus at Costco today, and frankly, it looks like a better built phone than my iPhone 4.

Banshee


----------



## TarionzCousin

Banshee16 said:


> It looks good.....real good.  Almost makes me regret getting the TF101 4 months ago.....I've gotten a lot of use out of the first generation Transformer, but the Prime looks more solid, faster, and just much nicer looking.



Thanks. That's helpful knowledge.


> You must spread some Experience Points around before giving it to Banshee16 again



Well, since I can't give you XP, how about a color icon. I don't know if this will look good enough, but it's the best I could do at the tiny icon resolution.


----------



## Banshee16

A poster after my own heart.  An icon of the Lady of Pain 

I haven't handled the Prime yet, but it's supposedly very much similar to the ASUS Ultrabooks, and those are pretty sharp.  Performance is supposed to be quicker, though not on every single app.....I guess it depends on whether an app is programmed to work with all four cores or not.

Screen brightness is supposed to be way up, with an outdoor mode that makes it possible to use outside in daylight.  Battery life is better.  Given the TF101 gets pretty strong battery life already, that's not bad.  Depending on what I do with mine, when docked with the keyboard, depending upon how much I use WiFi, mine gets between 15-20 hours on a charge already.  That's actual use...not just standby.  Some apps are worse at draining the battery than others....same as with iOS.

How much use you'll get from it will depend on what you want to use it for.  I use mine a lot for work.  It's a great companion for meetings, and now with Photoshop Touch and Photoshop Proto available, I can work on laying out ideas for clients right there.  The Prime improves on the video playback capabilities of the TF101 (which has issues with H.264).

With the USB ports, the Transformer series can actually work pretty well as Android based netbooks.  Mine's pretty much replaced my laptop for everything except hard core word processing or more detailed Photoshop work (I don't use my laptop for gaming....I have a more powerful desktop for that).

The areas I see mine lacking vs. an iPad 2 are that the battery life is a little shorter (though not by much), and with the dock added, the battery life is better, that there don't appear to be as many games or entertainment apps (though with the recent $0.10 sale, it feels like the problem may be more that the Market isn't as well organized as the App Store).  E-mail integration works much better than on iOS (phone version).  I can actually search for emails by keyword, and reliably find what I'm looking for, even if it's months old.  The TF101 doesn't feel built as nice as the iPad 2, but the Prime upps the ante, and is apparently quite solid.

The ports are useful....being able to move stuff on an off portable hard drives, print over the air to any printer (not just specific models), plug in a game controller and use it, or a wireless mouse, or even a wireless keyboard, or any number of other peripherals has been useful, as I tend to prefer a separate mouse over a trackpad.

Some reviewers had issues with weak WiFi...but apparently this appears to be a problem with early review units that has been corrected for the models being shipped to the U.S. for consumers....unless that's just a PR smokescreen.  Hopefully not.  Sites like Anandtech that had those problems reported receiving new copies that worked much better.

The TF101 is my first device, but I love the customizability.  I've switched out my launcher and keyboard, and have also thought of switching my multitasking tray, as well as my text to speech engine...though I haven't gotten around to those yet, as the ones that are already there don't bother me enough.  One thing I noticed....if you replace the keyboard, the software keyboard replacements don't work with the dock.  If you keep the replacement "turned on" while the dock is installed, the dock won't work, you'll get typos galore etc.  You have to turn the replacement keyboard off, and the dock will work properly.  I guess the app makers didn't account to think of the ASUS dock.

Banshee


----------



## Fast Learner

Banshee16 said:


> As to some of his statements being "nutty"....well, some at least, may not be looking as nutty a few more months out.




Time will tell, then. We'll check back in 6 months when, according to Schmidt:

Third-party developers will be writing the best apps for Android first, and that Android development will overtake iOS development _(promised at LeWeb 2 weeks ago)_<br> 

"The majority" of all televisions in stores will have Google TV built in _(also promised at LeWeb)_, and<br> 

Google will market a tablet of the highest quality _(spoken to Italian reporters today)_
Should be an amazing time for Google and Android if he's right!


----------



## Felon

Banshee16 said:


> It looks good.....real good.  Almost makes me regret getting the TF101 4 months ago.....I've gotten a lot of use out of the first generation Transformer, but the Prime looks more solid, faster, and just much nicer looking.



And let's not forget that at $500, it's actually reasonably priced for the hardware you're getting. I like my Toshiba Thrive just fine, but only relative to the $300 I paid over Thanksgiving weekend, not for the $470 it has normally retailed for.

The problem with the Prime is that Windows 8 is on its way in 2012. We can praise Android ICS for how far it's come along, but the things we could major milestones for Android are things we consider basic expectations from Windows.


----------



## Banshee16

Felon said:


> And let's not forget that at $500, it's actually reasonably priced for the hardware you're getting. I like my Toshiba Thrive just fine, but only relative to the $300 I paid over Thanksgiving weekend, not for the $470 it has normally retailed for.
> 
> The problem with the Prime is that Windows 8 is on its way in 2012. We can praise Android ICS for how far it's come along, but the things we could major milestones for Android are things we consider basic expectations from Windows.




Microsoft hasn't really done a good mobile OS yet....so I guess we'll see.  Microsoft definitely has resources....but they haven't been successful yet.  I wouldn't mind it.....but not if it means the devices using it only have 3 hour battery life (as an example).

I'm not an Android fanatic by any means.  I use Windows 7 and think MS did a pretty good job with it.  It's just they're playing major catch up at this point, and  don't know if they'll be able to do it.

I paid $425 for my Transformer.....which seems like a lot now.  But it's a business expense so it kind of balances out.  That having been said, I get a lot of use out of it, so by that token I'd probably be willing to pay more for it than something that I was using purely for entertainment.

Banshee


----------



## Fast Learner

Banshee16 said:


> Microsoft hasn't really done a good mobile OS yet....so I guess we'll see.




I'll argue that Windows Phone 7.5 is quite good. It's not tablet-ready yet, and they certainly could blow it with Win 8, but as a mobile phone OS, I think they're already there.


----------



## Felon

Banshee16 said:


> Microsoft hasn't really done a good mobile OS yet....so I guess we'll see.  Microsoft definitely has resources....but they haven't been successful yet.  I wouldn't mind it.....but not if it means the devices using it only have 3 hour battery life (as an example).
> 
> I'm not an Android fanatic by any means.  I use Windows 7 and think MS did a pretty good job with it.  It's just they're playing major catch up at this point, and  don't know if they'll be able to do it.



Microsoft moves at an elephantine pace, coparatively speaking. There's a good reason for this: they're pretty much the only guys in a very large business arena who provide a soup-to-nuts software framework that's viable for both consumer and enterprise. When we talk about consumer tech, it's easy to forget that there's a whole other arena that's vastly lucrative, and neither Android nor iOS are players there. My current gig is that of an IT admin in a shop that's heavily Wintel-oriented, and I cringe when we're steered into deploying Chrome or Firefox onto desktops, or the bigwigs want their iPads to glom onto our network. 

Windows 7 is great, but it's not built for tablets, that's for sure. I mean, it ain't touch-friendly to have the minimize, maximize, and close functions clustered together up in the corner of the window there, is it? But Windows 8 will be another thing altogether. MS knows that's folks are moving away from desktops to media centers and mobile platforms. Heck, MS is even setting up an app store.


----------



## Banshee16

Felon said:


> Microsoft moves at an elephantine pace, coparatively speaking. There's a good reason for this: they're pretty much the only guys in a very large business arena who provide a soup-to-nuts software framework that's viable for both consumer and enterprise. When we talk about consumer tech, it's easy to forget that there's a whole other arena that's vastly lucrative, and neither Android nor iOS are players there. My current gig is that of an IT admin in a shop that's heavily Wintel-oriented, and I cringe when we're steered into deploying Chrome or Firefox onto desktops, or the bigwigs want their iPads to glom onto our network.
> 
> Windows 7 is great, but it's not built for tablets, that's for sure. I mean, it ain't touch-friendly to have the minimize, maximize, and close functions clustered together up in the corner of the window there, is it? But Windows 8 will be another thing altogether. MS knows that's folks are moving away from desktops to media centers and mobile platforms. Heck, MS is even setting up an app store.




I 100% agree with you on several of your points here.  Regardless of whether they market themselves as suited for the space or not, neither iOS or Android are really suitable for corporate environments.  RiM's products are...but they're having major problems with deployment at the moment.

Most of my associates in IT departments dread the inevitable requests to deploy iPhones for staff, because of the lack of corporate control, and insecurity of the platforms as compared to ones like Blackberry that are more secure but "less fun".  But Apple's done a masterful job of creating the "I want" attitude...and few people want to carry two phones, so the "I want" product, which tends to be either an iOS or Android phone or tablet, is what the IT departments get pressured into deploying, no matter how incompatible they are with internal security policies.  Most of these guys will have an Android or iOS tablet for fun.....but they refuse to use them for work.

Windows 8 could be great.....and I'll keep an open mind.  At the moment, I really need to replace my laptop, but I don't want to do that right before an OS transition, because it's never as nice to have an upgrade capable machine as it is to have one built and optimized from the ground up for an OS.

I'd be a lot happier with some of the evolutions of MS products if they'd stop making so many features US-only.  As it stands, Media Centre is a glorified MP3 player for me, as the majority of cool stuff about it is turned off in Canada.  I went to the extent of getting the better versions of Win7, not realizing that some of those features actually don't even work in my country.  I loath regional restrictions.

Windows Phone 7 (Mango) is a lot better than it started.....but admittedly that feeling is just from reading reviews etc.  I don't know anyone who owns one, they weren't really there when I last changed phones.  There are no decent Windows tablets now, so I went Android.  Given how long contracts are in Canada, we'll likely be on Windows Phone 9, and Android Key Lime Pie or something before I'm eligible to change 

Not sure why you're not a fan of Firefox.....but then, I'm in web development, and many of us (at least among all the developers I work with) loathe IE.  Though Mozilla's decision to remove the lock symbol that appears when someone's on a secure page is something that has caused recent headaches.

Banshee


----------



## Fast Learner

Banshee16 said:


> Most of my associates in IT departments dread the inevitable requests to deploy iPhones for staff, because of the lack of corporate control



Do you have any specific about their lack of corporate control concerns? Companies have the ability to push apps from their servers, require complex unique device-locked passcodes for all manner of use, remotely wipe any iPhone, set secure access to all manner of corporate resources, configure VPNs, restrict WiFi networks, control email and calendar accounts, and control user (or group) access to a bunch of things, including:

*Device functionality*

Allow installing apps
Allow Siri
Allow use of camera
Allow FaceTime
Allow screen capture
Allow automatic syncing while roaming
Allow voice dialing
Allow In-App Purchase
Require store password for all purchases
Allow multiplayer gaming
Allow adding Game Center friends
*Applications*

Allow use of YouTube
Allow use of iTunes Store
Allow use of Safari
Set Safari security preferences
*iCloud *

Allow backup
Allow document sync and key-value sync
Allow Photo Stream
*Security and privacy*

Allow diagnostic data to be sent to Apple
Allow user to accept untrusted certificates
Force encrypted backups
*Content ratings*

Allow explicit music and podcasts
Set ratings region
Set allowed content ratings

I've been involved in several enterprise setups now and we've yet to run into any requirement we couldn't completely meet.

I don't know enough about RIM's security, so I can't compare them, but I will say that we've always managed to completely satisfy the security concerns of the IT departments we've worked with.

Anyway, do you know of any specific issues? I'm genuinely interested. Is it possible that your associates aren't fully informed?


----------



## Banshee16

Fast Learner said:


> I've been involved in several enterprise setups now and we've yet to run into any requirement we couldn't completely meet.
> 
> I don't know enough about RIM's security, so I can't compare them, but I will say that we've always managed to completely satisfy the security concerns of the IT departments we've worked with.
> 
> Anyway, do you know of any specific issues? I'm genuinely interested. Is it possible that your associates aren't fully informed?




I can ask, if you would like.  So you can understand where that's coming from.  There are several who've all said the same things, and they don't even know each other.

I'm not the network IT guy.  I'm good enough to configure my home networks etc. to a level that is probably above 95% of the networks you see in most homes...but from an enterprise standard, I'm not "the guy" 

I'll clarify a statement I made in my last post.

"I 100% agree with you on several of your points here. Regardless of whether they market themselves as suited for the space or not, <b>based on what I've been advised on the people I depend on to educate me on these matters</b>, neither iOS or Android are really suitable for corporate environments. RiM's products are...but they're having major problems with deployment at the moment."

Now, if Apple allows software firewall installation, a BES style e-mail environment including encryption of emails to and from the server, the ability to silo personal information and contacts added to the phone from business contacts etc., as well as the ability to remotely wipe all business related information without affecting personal information (or vice versa), force strong passwords as opposed to 4-digit unlock, then it would allay some of my personal concerns.  But these are my personal concerns....not necessarily espoused by the network admins I tend to consult with.  

I know that the iPhone can *support* strong passwords.  But I find by default most people go for simple ones.....and with 4 digits, you end up with 1,2,3,4 or 4,3,2,1 etc.  Similarly, in companies I've been with in the past, our network admins played an active role trying to break employee passwords any place they were used, with employees being instructed to change passwords when they were broken.  This was done on a monthly basis, with monthly enforced password changes etc.  As an employee at those times, it was a pain in the butt.  I hated it, as several times I forget my strong passwords.  But as an employer, yes, I'd expect that level of control.

I did ask one of the guys about it, and he commented about level of control...that it's more granular on Blackberry.  He can control pretty much every aspect of the BB (as it should be with a work device).  Wiping and enforcing passwords, allowing/disallowing OS version updating by the user, whitelist and blacklist apps, put a certificate on the BB to allow it to connect to a secured wireless network that requires the certificate to allow devices on it, prevent the device from connecting to unapproved wireless networks (ie. a Starbucks), and that the encryption protocols are far stronger, and can't easily be exploited (he claims iPhone encryption can be broken pretty easily).  He also referred to "Balance" (which I refer to above), where personal and business information can be stored and treated separately on the same device.  You can even do things like prevent business information from being accessed outside of preset hours.....ie. if you have an employee who's supposed to be on leave for a month, you can remotely turn off access to business contacts etc. without taking away his ability to use the phone for personal use.

Those are some of the things he pointed out.

From a business standpoint, I almost prefer the Playbook over an iPad 2....one of the nice features, which, from a consumer perspective has been displayed as a negative is the docking feature....basically, where access to e-mail, calendar etc. is pulled from the tethered Blackberry instead of being native on the tablet.  So you can share a tablet among staff who "sign it out", without one person getting access to information they shouldn't have (ie. another person's e-mail).  That's a powerful feature.

As someone who's done deployments of iPhones before, can you confirm whether or not a company can build custom apps for the iPhone that can be deployed to that company's iPhones, without having to pass through the Apple vetting process for the App Store?  I'm not stating this as something that can or cannot be done with the iPhone.  I'm asking if you know the answer, as I personally don't know.

On a personal level as a user, my non-security concerns tend to be related to:

E-mail
Going from Blackberry to iPhone has felt like a giant step down in terms of e-mail capabilities....I'm not talking security...just usability.

On my Blackberry, if I get an e-mail delivered to me (which happened much quicker/more reliably than on my iPhone), once I've read it and/or replied to it, I had the choice to delete it from my Blackberry, or delete it both from my Blackberry and from the server at the click of a button.  I can't seem to do that on iPhone.  If I delete an e-mail, it's gone from the server as well.

On my Blackberry, search worked very well.  On my iPhone, I can send an e-mail yesterday, and put in keywords from that e-mail into a search I conduct today, and it *won't* find the e-mail....even if I tell it to look on the server also.  To me, as a user, this is a nonstarter.  Now, maybe there's a way to get this working better, but no iPhone user I've talked to knows a way to do it.  They just either say "well, you're not using your phone right", and when I ask them to show me how to use it right, they try it, find they can't do it either, then say "well I don't need that".  Which is all great and all, but *I* need that.

Now, there's a Google Apps app that I've downloaded, and *it* can do what I need.....but it's way slower than the default mail interface and more of a pain to navigate.

Again, this is from a user's perspective.  As I understand it, iPad has the same characteristics.  My Transformer can't do the whole "delete from e-mail or delete from server" thing, but the search is traditional Google search, works very well, and finds whatever I need, even if the e-mail is 18 months old.

If I create an event on my calendar on my desktop, it gets pushed to my iPhone.  Which is obviously important.  But if I'm at a client's office, and I make a meeting with them on the spot, and book it on my iPhone calendar, it *doesn't* push over to my Google calendar.  This is not the case with my Transformer or Blackberry.  Whether I book on my mobile device or desktop, all events appear everywhere.

Again, I've been told by the Apple people I've talked with that I'm not using my phone correctly.  When they try to show me how to use it correctly, so this doesn't happen, they're unable to....and they say they don't need that feature.  Again, I do.  This particular issue has led to double booked/missed meetings, before I realized what was going on.  Particularly if I have been on the road for a whole day with meetings stacked one after another.  If I'm in 4 meetings in a row, with driving time between each, and in the first meeting I book something in my calendar with client#1, then go to 3 more meetings, by the time I get back to the office, I don't always remember to go to my desktop and set the meeting there.  Which, a few days later, if I'm sitting at my desk when a 5th client asks for a meeting, can lead to accidental double bookings.

That's either a critical flaw in the usability of their system, from my business needs perspective, or an issue with their phones/OS not being easy enough to configure, as without doing anything special, this has not occurred with either Blackberry or Android.  Maybe it's a permissions issue with how Google calendar talks to iOS or something....I'm not sure.  All I know is that I didn't have to do anything special with Blackberry or Android to get them to talk to Google Calendar.

The final problem I have is how contact backups are done.   After going through the default wizards with iOS, I have found that if I make a change to a contact directly on my handset, and later sync, and my backed up copy has older information on it, the older information actually replaces my corrected information on the phone.  I didn't even realize this was going on until after several instances of finding out of date contact information when I tried reaching clients.....finding out that I was using old numbers that couldn't reach them, even after updating them on my phone several times.  Again, I was told that I'm not using the phone correctly...but nobody could advise me on how to prevent this problem from happening again. Maybe it's a setting in iTunes or something.....I'm honestly not sure.

Those are three personal findings.....they may seem minor, but as someone on the go, I find them important.

By and large, with iOS 5, Apple resolved several of my other frustrations with using my phone for work.  Plus, several hundred posts ago, someone on EN World posted several tips that helped me get around some of the other concerns I had at the time.  The three I outlined above are the main usability issues I still have.

Banshee


----------



## Janx

So many fun topics:

Windows8
I've seen and tried out the laptop in a tablet form-factor that MS gave out at the last BUILD conference running Windows8.

The Metro interface is exactly how MS is tackling the touch screen paradigm.  If you have an Xbox, you can see it, as the latest FW has it (so does WinMo7)

It makes sense for a touch screen.  Not as cool on a non-touch screen.


iOS corporate app development and deployment

My past research has shown that Apple does have a contract you can pay for so you can deploy corporate apps to iOS devices and bypass the AppStore.

iOS contact management
I use Google Sync on all my devices.  I have not had a problem with it stale-updating changes if I fix a contact on my iPhone, the change makes to my gmail and my work phone.

I do NOT use the cloud for backing up my maiil or contacts as Google Sync already dioes that and makes it cross-platform (android, iOS, BB and web)


----------



## falcarrion

Now that Cristmas and boxing day has gone by. Where are all the new tablet people? Surely there has to be a few?


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

I think I mentioned it upthread- I got an iPad2 for X-mas, about a month early.


----------



## jmucchiello

I just received a Galaxy tab 10.1 for my birthday/Christmas. (Actually I received it a couple weeks ago.) Typing this on the tablet is mildly annoying. Why aren't there cursor keys on the virtual keyboard?


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

Amusing thing about the iPad2's virtual keyboard- it graphically recreates the ridges that appear on real "F" and "J" keys...not that you can _feel_ them, of course.


----------



## Janx

jmucchiello said:


> I just received a Galaxy tab 10.1 for my birthday/Christmas. (Actually I received it a couple weeks ago.) Typing this on the tablet is mildly annoying. Why aren't there cursor keys on the virtual keyboard?




i hate not having arrrow keys on iThing as well.  You are suppsosed to tap on the text to move the cursor.  Except it only moves to the end of the word.  Not the middle.  where the typo is.  So you have to delete darn near the whole word and retype it.


----------



## IronWolf

Janx said:


> i hate not having arrrow keys on iThing as well.  You are suppsosed to tap on the text to move the cursor.  Except it only moves to the end of the word.  Not the middle.  where the typo is.  So you have to delete darn near the whole word and retype it.




Tap and Hold. You will get a zoom window which lets you move the cursor to exactly where you want it.


----------



## Janx

IronWolf said:


> Tap and Hold. You will get a zoom window which lets you move the cursor to exactly where you want it.




this is the kind of quality information I like to get from these discussions.

Thanks!


----------



## catsclaw227

jmucchiello said:


> I just received a Galaxy tab 10.1 for my birthday/Christmas. (Actually I received it a couple weeks ago.) Typing this on the tablet is mildly annoying. Why aren't there cursor keys on the virtual keyboard?



Outside of the virtual keyboard, how do you like it?  This is the one I am looking at, though I am thinking I will wait just a little longer until next gen of Android tablets are out.


----------



## Alan Shutko

We've begun deploying android and iOS devices in our large and rather regulated Fortune 100 corporation.  Here's some comments from our experience. We mostly use Good and Citrix rather than the built-in apps so that we can both add additional control and sandbox corporate data. This allows "Bring Your Own Device" to work for us. My comments are mostly based on iOS, since I haven't used Android.



Banshee16 said:


> Now, if Apple allows software firewall installation




No.



> , a BES style e-mail environment including encryption of emails to and from the server




SSL can be used for POP, IMAP, and Outlook accounts.  Add-ons like Good do it by default.



> , the ability to silo personal information and contacts added to the phone from business contacts etc., as well as the ability to remotely wipe all business related information without affecting personal information (or vice versa),




If you are using the built-in functionality, you can't silo, and a remote wipe will affect everything. If you are tied to an ActiveSync account, the corporation can do a remote wipe.

We use Good for Enterprise, which silos the corporate data within the app and allows additional controls, including a remote wipe that just affects the corporate data.



> force strong passwords as opposed to 4-digit unlock, then it would allay some of my personal concerns.




If you are tied to an active sync account, the administrator can enforce that. Good for Enterprise can force password policies to get into its specific app, without requiring passwords for the rest of the device.



> As someone who's done deployments of iPhones before, can you confirm whether or not a company can build custom apps for the iPhone that can be deployed to that company's iPhones, without having to pass through the Apple vetting process for the App Store?
> 
> Yes. You get an Enterprise account with Apple which allows it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On my Blackberry, if I get an e-mail delivered to me (which happened much quicker/more reliably than on my iPhone), once I've read it and/or replied to it, I had the choice to delete it from my Blackberry, or delete it both from my Blackberry and from the server at the click of a button.
> 
> 
> 
> That's correct.  BB acts like a combination of POP and IMAP, where there's a looser link between the mobile inbox and the server inbox.  The iPhone tries to make everything act like IMAP, where what you see on the mobile device is the same as the server. Good for Enterprise actually works the same way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On my Blackberry, search worked very well.  On my iPhone, I can send an e-mail yesterday, and put in keywords from that e-mail into a search I conduct today, and it *won't* find the e-mail....even if I tell it to look on the server also.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iPhone mail search only searches to, from, and subject. It does not search body. That sort of sucks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I create an event on my calendar on my desktop, it gets pushed to my iPhone.  Which is obviously important.  But if I'm at a client's office, and I make a meeting with them on the spot, and book it on my iPhone calendar, it *doesn't* push over to my Google calendar.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I don't use a google calendar, I use iCloud (and formerly used MobileMe), and my entries do push to everything else I have.  When I use Good for Enterprise, the same thing happens for my corporate outlook calendar.
> 
> It could be something as simple as the default calendar being set to a calendar that's only on your device, or there might be something in the way you have Google Calendar set up. There are several different ways to set up google calendar, and I'm not as familiar with the limitations of each.  I'm reasonably certain there's a way to get it to work, but I'd definitely agree that Google's calendar works better with Google's apps.  Are you using the calendar via Google's exchange setup or via caldav?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The final problem I have is how contact backups are done.   After going through the default wizards with iOS, I have found that if I make a change to a contact directly on my handset, and later sync, and my backed up copy has older information on it, the older information actually replaces my corrected information on the phone.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> How are you syncing your contacts, and what are you syncing them with?  Are you syncing with your local Mac Addressbook via iTunes, with Google via its Exchange support, or some other setup?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## jmucchiello

catsclaw227 said:


> Outside of the virtual keyboard, how do you like it?  This is the one I am looking at, though I am thinking I will wait just a little longer until next gen of Android tablets are out.



It's nice. I haven't gone to work yet with it so I haven't tried reading long term with it yet. This is the first time I'm casually surfing with it. Looks like I'm going to need to find a new keyboard. I use too many contractions and the apostrophe is not on the letter screen.  but this smiley is, go figure. Just switched to the Android keyboard with its more annoying beep but it has the ' right there.

One annoying thing is going to websites that assume I'm on a phone and send me to the wap version of their site. 

Samsung announced an 8.6 inch Galaxy tab. That might have been worth waiting for but this was a gift so I'm not complaining.


----------



## JoeGKushner

Got my mom an Amazon Kindle Fire.

She doesn't need the hoops and other things that my Toshiba Thrive has. Although as I've seen a few fireside sales on the Thrive I've had to swallow a lot of buyer's remorse on that end.

She is really diggin the books, movies, and few aps she's tried like Pandora. Good stuff for her.


----------



## IronWolf

JoeGKushner said:


> Got my mom an Amazon Kindle Fire.




Almost bought my Mom one, but settled on the Kindle Touch. I didn't want to overload her with features and she is primarily interested in just reading. She really likes the Kindle Touch though.


----------



## TarionzCousin

I see that the Asus Transformer Prime is finally available... somewhat--unless you want the 64 GB model, or want it with Ice Cream Sandwich. 

My Google-fu was too weak to determine what the story is with the 64 GB versions. Are they for sale now also--but not at every location (like Amazon.com and Best Buy)?


----------



## Rabulias

I pre-ordered my 64GB Transformer Prime back in November and I got it on Tuesday, Jan 3. I think they are still filling the backlog of preorders. I got mine from B & H Photo and Video. Their site now says the 64GBs will be restocked later this month and more 32GBs will be in in February.


----------



## JoeGKushner

I think memory on this devices will continue to creep up. On RPG.net one of the posters had a link to a 256 memory card.

And another was talking about 8 gig hard drives. (or is that tetra? I get 'em confused at that size.)


----------



## Felon

I flew up to visit the family for Christmas. I gave my sister a Nook tablet. She loves the thing. As I mentioned in a previous post, my mother wasn't able to get the Kindle Fire to work on wifi, so we ultimately returned it. The same problem was true of the Nook. Taking a look at the router, I found that it was completely open, and once I actually added WPA2 PSK security with a password, the Nook was able to connect. I've seen this before, where devices don't connect to open security because they're waiting for password authentication that never comes.

My Thrive was real salvation during the trip. I have probably way too much money too quickly downloading Invincible compliations from Comixology. If you have a tablet of any kind, go check out Splashtop. It's a very simple-to-set-up app for remote desktop control, and it's available across the major platforms.


----------



## Zaukrie

I have last year's Nook Color. The closed market drives me crazy. Bleepin' crazy. I just bought a Rezound phone, and now I know what I've been missing in terms of apps. Ridiculous. B&N needs to open it up more. The smart phone just makes me want a real tablet even more than I did before.


----------



## Felon

The Rezound is a nice phone. As for the Nook, I noticed that even with the tablet, if I went to the Amazon Android app store, it would immediately close the browser. That's obnoxious. Root the sucker, I say.


----------



## JoeGKushner

Felon said:


> I flew up to visit the family for Christmas. I gave my sister a Nook tablet. She loves the thing. As I mentioned in a previous post, my mother wasn't able to get the Kindle Fire to work on wifi, so we ultimately returned it. The same problem was true of the Nook. Taking a look at the router, I found that it was completely open, and once I actually added WPA2 PSK security with a password, the Nook was able to connect. I've seen this before, where devices don't connect to open security because they're waiting for password authentication that never comes.
> 
> My Thrive was real salvation during the trip. I have probably way too much money too quickly downloading Invincible compliations from Comixology. If you have a tablet of any kind, go check out Splashtop. It's a very simple-to-set-up app for remote desktop control, and it's available across the major platforms.




Wiat, did you say compilations of Invicible? Almost every time I look at that service it's all individual issues and it's cheaper to buy the hardcover collectons that bring 'em 12 at a time.


----------



## Felon

JoeGKushner said:


> Wiat, did you say compilations of Invicible? Almost every time I look at that service it's all individual issues and it's cheaper to buy the hardcover collectons that bring 'em 12 at a time.




Looks to be the same either way. $2 for a single issue, $12 for a six-issue compilation. I figure the compilations save me a bit of scrolling when I'm looking at my titles.


----------



## Felon

CES 2012 is here. One of the biggest deals at the expo? Windows 8 tablets.

Here's Razer's concept tablet:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpj9TUp4rkU[/ame]


----------



## Fast Learner

While it's not Razer's market, per se, I think they would have been way better off creating controllers for existing tablets instead of insisting that people buy theirs. 

With Bluetooth LE on new Apple hardware, for example, you don't have to get a special hardware license from Apple or anything. They could create awesome gaming control pads/speakers/whatever that snap onto an iPad and spit out a simple SDK that allows any developer to take advantage of it. 

There are likely existing Android tablets with Bluetooth LE, too, or soon will be. (USB or other ports are bad because the physical position of each port makes creating a widely-compatible device very difficult, and the energy requirement of Bluetooth 3 drains the tablet and accessory batteries crazy fast).

I recognize that they're full PC games, but it seems like the actual price will doom it to ultimate failure. I'll be very surprised if it actually ever comes to market.


----------



## Felon

Fast Learner said:


> While it's not Razer's market, per se, I think they would have been way better off creating controllers for existing tablets instead of insisting that people buy theirs.
> 
> With Bluetooth LE on new Apple hardware, for example, you don't have to get a special hardware license from Apple or anything. They could create awesome gaming control pads/speakers/whatever that snap onto an iPad and spit out a simple SDK that allows any developer to take advantage of it.
> 
> There are likely existing Android tablets with Bluetooth LE, too, or soon will be. (USB or other ports are bad because the physical position of each port makes creating a widely-compatible device very difficult, and the energy requirement of Bluetooth 3 drains the tablet and accessory batteries crazy fast).
> 
> I recognize that they're full PC games, but it seems like the actual price will doom it to ultimate failure. I'll be very surprised if it actually ever comes to market.



Well, there's simply worlds of difference between playing iPad or Android apps and having access to every PC game on the market with an i7 processor and a proper GPU. You'd have a real OS, not just some wallpaper with app shortcuts. They could afford to charge what a good laptop or PC would cost because It would actually handle what laptops and PC's handle: hardcore gaming and hardcore productivity. Currently, tablets are just for dabbling in those things.

Razer is clearly not conceiving their tablet for a large mass-market consumer audience. It's for diehards. Then again, even if it never comes out, we will be seeing powerhouse Windows 8 tablets in its vein.


----------



## JoeGKushner

I was more interested in the 13" tablet. While I find my Toshiba is great for some things, I actually think it's a 'little' too small for PDFs and drawing on.

And yeah, a Windows tablet does sound sweet, but expensive. Apps have paved the way for a lot of inexpensive software that works.


----------



## Banshee16

Felon said:


> I flew up to visit the family for Christmas. I gave my sister a Nook tablet. She loves the thing. As I mentioned in a previous post, my mother wasn't able to get the Kindle Fire to work on wifi, so we ultimately returned it. The same problem was true of the Nook. Taking a look at the router, I found that it was completely open, and once I actually added WPA2 PSK security with a password, the Nook was able to connect. I've seen this before, where devices don't connect to open security because they're waiting for password authentication that never comes.
> 
> My Thrive was real salvation during the trip. I have probably way too much money too quickly downloading Invincible compliations from Comixology. If you have a tablet of any kind, go check out Splashtop. It's a very simple-to-set-up app for remote desktop control, and it's available across the major platforms.




I've got Splashtop on  my Transformer.  It's kind of neat to play The Witcher 2 on my tablet, streamed from my PC.

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16

Rabulias said:


> I pre-ordered my 64GB Transformer Prime back in November and I got it on Tuesday, Jan 3. I think they are still filling the backlog of preorders. I got mine from B & H Photo and Video. Their site now says the 64GBs will be restocked later this month and more 32GBs will be in in February.




How do you like your Prime?  I've got the first Transformer, and had briefly considered upgrading.  But I've heard some people have had issues with weak WiFi reception, due to the aluminum body interfering with the RF signal.

Banshee


----------



## Relique du Madde

Motorola is finally beginning their soai test of thier ICS build for the Xoom WiFi.  Here's to hoping I get my copy next week (assuming it doesn't broke Xoom WiFis).

-Sent via tappatalk


----------



## Felon

JoeGKushner said:


> And yeah, a Windows tablet does sound sweet, but expensive. Apps have paved the way for a lot of inexpensive software that works.




Well, even Windows has freeware, or cheap-to-license shareware. That "ghetto" software just doesn't get much love from Windows users because we tend to just go ahead and get a full-featured application. But when I view media, it's usually on GOM Play, VLC Viewer, or Irfanview. 

By the end of the year, Android will most likely be confined to the budget-model devices, while Windows becomes the premium OS of choice. The only thing that will really keep Android going is the lack of OEM license fee. That's why I would recommend folks think twice about getting something like the Transformer Prime at this stage of the game. As sweet as it looks now, there's going to be some regret about the expenditure not too far down the line.


----------



## Janx

Felon said:


> Well, even Windows has freeware, or cheap-to-license shareware. That "ghetto" software just doesn't get much love from Windows users because we tend to just go ahead and get a full-featured application. But when I view media, it's usually on GOM Play, VLC Viewer, or Irfanview.




I don't know about that.  the freeware/shareware movement started on DOS and windows machines over BBS and FTP sites like wuarchive.wustl.edu

Right now, in my work, I use:

Paint.NET
Adobe Reader
iTextSharp or PDFSharp
some free barcode scanner API my intern just found
8-Zip
WinMerge
MySQL Workbench
Virtual CloneDrive
some Hex editor that I misplaced but use when I need it (or googla another free one)
Skype

The MS App Marketplace is likely to be overrun with free apps to do things.  Just like the iOS AppStore.  And there will be plenty of them that are good, in amidst the crap.


----------



## Fast Learner

Felon said:


> By the end of the year, Android will most likely be confined to the budget-model devices, while Windows becomes the premium OS of choice.



I predict that not only will this not happen by the end of the year, it won't happen ever. It will be interesting to review a year from now.



> The only thing that will really keep Android going is the lack of OEM license fee.



Microsoft makes $5-15 off of 70% of Android devices sold due to patent licenses. While Google might not charge device builders, they certainly pay.


----------



## Relique du Madde

It's not in MS's best interest if Android fails.  I'm certain MS views Android as being a lawsuit deflection shield since MS knows they can never be first to do ANYTHING since then the Anti-trust sharks would start circling.


----------



## Banshee16

Relique du Madde said:


> Motorola is finally beginning their soai test of thier ICS build for the Xoom WiFi.  Here's to hoping I get my copy next week (assuming it doesn't broke Xoom WiFis).
> 
> -Sent via tappatalk




According to Slashgear, ICS is rolling out *today* for the Xoom WiFi, if you're in the U.S.  The article announcing that has a bunch of comments from people confirming they just downloading it, and basically going googoo over how much better it runs on the Xoom than Honeycomb did.

FYI, Opera doesn't have typing lag on forums...not sure if you're aware of that.

From everything I've read, ICS, performance wise, is WAY better than Honeycomb, and really makes the Android tablets perform almost as smooth as iOS 5.......but ICS has a few problems in that, being a unified OS for phones and tablets, some things like app lists are laid out more for phones, even on the tablets.....rather than being a grid.

I'm looking forward to trying it out, but ASUS has delayed upgrading the TF101...probably because there have been some people reporting severe issues with upgrading the Prime....not all people.  Seems like it works for most people, but for a select few, it REALLY messes things up.

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16

Relique du Madde said:


> It's not in MS's best interest if Android fails.  I'm certain MS views Android as being a lawsuit deflection shield since MS knows they can never be first to do ANYTHING since then the Anti-trust sharks would start circling.




Given that MS makes more money from Android than from Windows phone, I'd think they don't want to see Android fail 

At the end of the day, it's no in anyone's interest for there to be only one or two smartphone "flavours"....as much as the Android or Apple fans believe otherwise!

Banshee


----------



## Felon

Fast Learner said:


> I predict that not only will this not happen by the end of the year, it won't happen ever. It will be interesting to review a year from now.



To be clear, that was a tablet-specific comment. The tablets will have a full-featured Windows OS option. Smartphones won't.



> Microsoft makes $5-15 off of 70% of Android devices sold due to patent licenses. While Google might not charge device builders, they certainly pay.



Yes, but they don't pay for the license, and that's s surcharge that gets passed along to the cutomer when they buy a computer with Windows pre-installed.



Relique du Madde said:


> It's not in MS's best interest if Android fails.  I'm certain MS views Android as being a lawsuit deflection shield since MS knows they can never be first to do ANYTHING since then the Anti-trust sharks would start circling.



It's not MS who's going to relegate Android to the budget tablet market. It's going to be manufacturers who embrace a Windows OEM for their performance tablets.


----------



## Banshee16

Felon said:


> To be clear, that was a tablet-specific comment. The tablets will have a full-featured Windows OS option. Smartphones won't.
> 
> 
> Yes, but they don't pay for the license, and that's s surcharge that gets passed along to the cutomer when they buy a computer with Windows pre-installed.
> 
> 
> It's not MS who's going to relegate Android to the budget tablet market. It's going to be manufacturers who embrace a Windows OEM for their performance tablets.




Those are a lot of assumptions.   Microsoft hasn't been able to develop good performance tablets since....well, since they were developing tablets running Windows, with short battery life, before the iPad was a gleam in Steve Jobs' eye.

Maybe the Windows 8 tablets will be all that, and maybe they won't.  There is a sizable base of customers who I suspect will want to stick with an environment compatible with their smart phones.  And, well, Windows phones aren't very popular....never have been.

I'm not saying it can't happen.....I just don't think it necessarily WILL happen.

Banshee


----------



## IronWolf

Banshee16 said:


> Those are a lot of assumptions.   Microsoft hasn't been able to develop good performance tablets since....well, since they were developing tablets running Windows, with short battery life, before the iPad was a gleam in Steve Jobs' eye.




Yeah, we used to have several models of Windows tablets at work back in the day and they were horrible. Very much a gadget with very little real functionality because of their poor performance.

Now granted, now that Microsoft has something to model their new tablets after they might have better luck. They seem better at following and sometimes improving than they do leading often times. So maybe with the successful iPad and Android tabs they can finally figure out what makes a successful tablet.

The other thing with a Windows tablet is how they are going to address battery life. I guess they have been able to dabble in that area with Windows 7 mobile, maybe they have learned a bit there that can carry over to Windows 8 tablets.


----------



## Felon

Banshee16 said:


> Those are a lot of assumptions.   Microsoft hasn't been able to develop good performance tablets since....well, since they were developing tablets running Windows, with short battery life, before the iPad was a gleam in Steve Jobs' eye.



I just threw out the "appeal to tradion" fallacy in another thread. Don't make me do it again so soon. 

MS has always tried to slap vanilla Windows onto a tablet. Windows will be 8 touchscreen and tablet-friendly from the get-go. The pre-release candidate has been available to play with for some time now. It's the real deal. They even got it running on an iPad's hardware.


----------



## Janx

Felon said:


> I just threw out the "appeal to tradion" fallacy in another thread. Don't make me do it again so soon.
> 
> MS has always tried to slap vanilla Windows onto a tablet. Windows will be 8 touchscreen and tablet-friendly from the get-go. The pre-release candidate has been available to play with for some time now. It's the real deal. They even got it running on an iPad's hardware.




I have seen windows 8 on the tablet they gave away at MS BUILD last year. I've held it in my hands and it was responsive.

It was actually a laptop. Reshuffled into a tablet form factor with no keyboard and a touch screen.

Battery life was about 2 hours, because it was an intel system, not arm.

Win8 will cure the UI sux as a tablet problem.  The Arm. Version of the hardware will cure the battery problem.

Metro mode takes care of performance, because of how the ui is engineered to be responsive (any event taking longer than Xms must be an asynchronous call).


----------



## JoeGKushner

IronWolf said:


> Yeah, we used to have several models of Windows tablets at work back in the day and they were horrible. Very much a gadget with very little real functionality because of their poor performance.
> 
> Now granted, now that Microsoft has something to model their new tablets after they might have better luck. They seem better at following and sometimes improving than they do leading often times. So maybe with the successful iPad and Android tabs they can finally figure out what makes a successful tablet.
> 
> The other thing with a Windows tablet is how they are going to address battery life. I guess they have been able to dabble in that area with Windows 7 mobile, maybe they have learned a bit there that can carry over to Windows 8 tablets.




Sometimes.

Zune and their whole media experience tried to build off iPad and Apple store and failed to the point of death.


----------



## John Crichton

I'll believe Windows 8/Microsoft is a player in the tablet game when they actually get in the game and not a moment sooner.  Way too many failures outside the PC/Desktop arena to go any other way.


----------



## Fast Learner

Felon said:


> To be clear, that was a tablet-specific comment. The tablets will have a full-featured Windows OS option. Smartphones won't.



That's how I read it. "Windows becomes the premium OS of choice" on tablets is what I am predicting won't come true.



> Yes, but they don't pay for the license, and that's s surcharge that gets passed along to the cutomer when they buy a computer with Windows pre-installed.



I don't think we're talking about the same thing, unless you mean "buy a mobile device with Android pre-installed". Manufacturers who produce *Android* mobile devices -- Samsung, LG, HTC, etc. -- pay Microsoft a license for every device sold due to Microsoft's patent ownership.


----------



## Relique du Madde

Here's a thought..

Duel boot Windows 8 / Android.

You could dev then test on an android device without an emulator.


----------



## Fast Learner

Relique du Madde said:


> Here's a thought..
> 
> Duel boot Windows 8 / Android.
> 
> You could dev then test on an android device without an emulator.




Such a device would have to be dual-processor as well, ARM and Intel x86, which would make it somewhat goofy, though I suppose not entirely.

The alternative would be full Windows 8 running on ARM, the status of which is currently unknown; some believe Microsoft's ARM-porting statements imply that it will, while others read them as implying that ARM devices will run the Metro UI only and won't be a full Windows port.

Even if they do port and support full Windows 8 on ARM, it would mean that your existing Windows applications wouldn't run under it, as they'd need to be recompiled for whichever ARM processor the device ran (likely A7).

For development purposes I think separate devices is ultimately better, both because you wouldn't have to reboot (or do some kind of suspend and reawaken) in order to swap environments and test, you'd have the ability to separately upgrade either device, and most Android devs I know have to/want to test on multiple devices and multiple OSes.

Microsoft would likely be completely against the idea so the swapping wouldn't be supported natively in Windows 8: they want users running their OS exclusively. While they make money from Android, they're poised to lose a ton of money as Windows becomes less and less important. No need to hasten it. 

(One of the things I love about developing for iOS is that the IDE, Xcode, compiles natively to x86 and to ARM6 an ARM7, such that when testing your app on your Mac it's not running in an emulator, it's running in a simulator. On the downside, newbie devs can make the mistake of believing that because the app runs well in the simulator it will therefore do so on a mobile device: your dual- or quad-core high-speed Intel chip is a whole lot faster than Apple's ARM-based mobile chip.)


----------



## Rabulias

Banshee16 said:


> How do you like your Prime?  I've got the first Transformer, and had briefly considered upgrading.  But I've heard some people have had issues with weak WiFi reception, due to the aluminum body interfering with the RF signal.
> 
> Banshee




I am loving it so far, but it's my first foray into android and tablets, so much of this could be the "new shiny" factor for me.

I have had no issues with wi-fi, and I have used it on 4 different wi-fi networks (home, public library, and two friends' homes). My usage has not been very bandwidth intensive though; some YouTube vids might be the highest.


----------



## drothgery

Fast Learner said:


> Such a device would have to be dual-processor as well, ARM and Intel x86, which would make it somewhat goofy, though I suppose not entirely.



Intel's doing a lot of work with Android on x86, too; the latest system-on-a-chip version of Atom looks like a pretty competitive cell phone/low-power tablet CPU.


----------



## Fast Learner

drothgery said:


> Intel's doing a lot of work with Android on x86, too; the latest system-on-a-chip version of Atom looks like a pretty competitive cell phone/low-power tablet CPU.



Aye, and it's my understanding that the current Google TV boxes run x86. For development purposes, though, I'd want to test on what the common hardware.


----------



## Banshee16

Fast Learner said:


> That's how I read it. "Windows becomes the premium OS of choice" on tablets is what I am predicting won't come true.
> 
> 
> I don't think we're talking about the same thing, unless you mean "buy a mobile device with Android pre-installed". Manufacturers who produce *Android* mobile devices -- Samsung, LG, HTC, etc. -- pay Microsoft a license for every device sold due to Microsoft's patent ownership.




Now, shortly before Christmas, one of the companies Microsoft was going after challenged them to reveal what patents they were violating, and it turned out that a bunch of the patents in their "bag" really weren't that applicable, and that this whole time, companies have basically been giving in because it's cheaper to do so than to go to court.

Or did all that end up  being incorrect?  The feeling I got was that Microsoft's going around with this big bag of patents, and basically saying "pay or we go to court", and companies are agreeing to pay, rather than going to court.

Banshee


----------



## JoeGKushner

Rabulias said:


> I am loving it so far, but it's my first foray into android and tablets, so much of this could be the "new shiny" factor for me.
> 
> I have had no issues with wi-fi, and I have used it on 4 different wi-fi networks (home, public library, and two friends' homes). My usage has not been very bandwidth intensive though; some YouTube vids might be the highest.




Keep an eye on amazon for the app of the day.

keep an eye on crn for their daily pick. not necessarily free, but often worth knowing about.

the android market isn't the apple one, but damn if its not getting there.


----------



## Fast Learner

Banshee16 said:


> Now, shortly before Christmas, one of the companies Microsoft was going after challenged them to reveal what patents they were violating, and it turned out that a bunch of the patents in their "bag" really weren't that applicable, and that this whole time, companies have basically been giving in because it's cheaper to do so than to go to court.
> 
> Or did all that end up  being incorrect?  The feeling I got was that Microsoft's going around with this big bag of patents, and basically saying "pay or we go to court", and companies are agreeing to pay, rather than going to court.



Doesn't seem likely since LG signed an agreement three days ago. That's the one that brought the total to 70% of manufacturers, with Motorola being the only major standout.


----------



## Banshee16

Fast Learner said:


> Doesn't seem likely since LG signed an agreement three days ago. That's the one that brought the total to 70% of manufacturers, with Motorola being the only major standout.




I'll see if I can find the link.  There was a lot of talk about this right before Christmas in the Android community.

The gist of it was that Microsoft's been stomping around, and basically depending on the fact that as more companies bend, the ones who are remaining figure there's legitimacy to their complaints, and figure on avoiding problems.  However, one of the OEMs challenged them, and the patent they were actually violating was minor.

Which paints Microsoft as not so much defending their IP as finding a way to profit from the guys who are beating them.

I believe most of these cases are getting settled before going to trial.....if so, that could be a good indicator supporting the theory.

Banshee


----------



## falcarrion

Windows over the cloud could be what us tablet owners will get. Check out the "Onlive Desktop" app. Looks like a window screen. Lets you run Word, Excel, Powerpoint and more.


----------



## Alan Shutko

Banshee16 said:


> The gist of it was that Microsoft's been stomping around, and basically depending on the fact that as more companies bend, the ones who are remaining figure there's legitimacy to their complaints, and figure on avoiding problems.  However, one of the OEMs challenged them, and the patent they were actually violating was minor.





You're probably talking about Barnes & Noble. But while they're fighting it, the case isn't over yet.  Microsoft is also suing Motorola and got a preliminary ruling from the ITC that Motorola was in violation.

I haven't read the 43-page filing Barnes & Noble made, nor the patents in question, so I can't weigh in on the value of the patents. (The summary quoted is never a useful tool to dismiss patents, you have to read all the details.)

It is a good point that LG has licensed the patents SINCE the response from B&N, so they must think there's value to it.


----------



## Banshee16

Alan Shutko said:


> You're probably talking about Barnes & Noble. But while they're fighting it, the case isn't over yet.  Microsoft is also suing Motorola and got a preliminary ruling from the ITC that Motorola was in violation.
> 
> I haven't read the 43-page filing Barnes & Noble made, nor the patents in question, so I can't weigh in on the value of the patents. (The summary quoted is never a useful tool to dismiss patents, you have to read all the details.)
> 
> It is a good point that LG has licensed the patents SINCE the response from B&N, so they must think there's value to it.




Well....wait a second.  The court stated that the majority of Microsoft's claims were not valid....only one was found to be violated.  Whether it will be a problem depends on how easily Motorola can work around it.

Banshee


----------



## Fast Learner

Banshee16 said:


> Which paints Microsoft as not so much defending their IP as finding a way to profit from the guys who are beating them.



FWIW, that's how I'd define 95%* of software patent litigation.


* being generous


----------



## Relique du Madde

On a side note, Asus has just confirmed via twitter that they have the EEE Transformer Pad's ICS update waiting in a hold pattern for Google's permission before it can be sent out.


----------



## Felon

falcarrion said:


> Windows over the cloud could be what us tablet owners will get. Check out the "Onlive Desktop" app. Looks like a window screen. Lets you run Word, Excel, Powerpoint and more.



The primary audience for cloud-based computing is the enterprise sector. Desktop virtualization is a big deal these days. Stands to put a lot of IT folks out of work.


----------



## Banshee16

Fast Learner said:


> FWIW, that's how I'd define 95%* of software patent litigation.
> 
> 
> * being generous




I agree.  These lawsuits are getting ridiculous.

What worries me is that this trend appears to be starting to infect the medical field.  I read that there are some cases now where companies are trying to patent medical findings.....such that other companies couldn't make medicines that use biological systems discovered in studies that they patent.

This isn't about patenting medication....more like the equivalent of saying "well, we've patented the research that shows that cholesterol contributes to heart disease, so nobody but us can make drugs that lower cholesterol without violating our patent."

Which is just a terrible, evil idea.

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16

Felon said:


> The primary audience for cloud-based computing is the enterprise sector. Desktop virtualization is a big deal these days. Stands to put a lot of IT folks out of work.




Enterprise sector....in the U.S. 

Cloud based computing causes problems for us in Canada.  Given that most cloud services I'm aware of are based on software hosted on servers in the U.S., they're subject to the Patriot Act.  But the Patriot Act potentially puts Canadian companies who use those cloud services (to host client data) in violation of PIPEDA, our own privacy regulations.

This interconnected, global community just gets more and more complex...

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16

Relique du Madde said:


> On a side note, Asus has just confirmed via twitter that they have the EEE Transformer Pad's ICS update waiting in a hold pattern for Google's permission before it can be sent out.




Probably a good idea.  They had problems with a percentage of users having something go wrong with the update on the Transformer Prime.

I use my tablet all the time at work, and the last thing I want is a bricked unit.

I've heard, however, that those who've received the update on the Xoom have been very happy with it so far.  Supposedly ICS runs much smoother than Honeycomb.

Banshee


----------



## Felon

Banshee16 said:


> Enterprise sector....in the U.S.
> 
> Cloud based computing causes problems for us in Canada.



Well, cloud-based computing also sucks some eggs here in the U.S. But sales weasels know what buttons to push. Tell administration that it will save them a fortune, and people will assign techs to do proofs-of-concept. Of course, these are the very techs who may stand to be laid off if the project actually comes to fruition, so they're quick to point out that it actually costs a fortune to rip off your infrastructure and drop a bunch of dummy terminals with SSD drives.


----------



## Fast Learner

Banshee16 said:


> What worries me is that this trend appears to be starting to infect the medical field.  I read that there are some cases now where companies are trying to patent medical findings.....such that other companies couldn't make medicines that use biological systems discovered in studies that they patent.



Indeed, and patents are even being granted on _gene sequences_, as well has knowing what the sequence means, how to detect it, and how to alter it.

I can at least understand the arguments for the latter three: you did the work figuring out what a particular sequence does, figured out how to detect it, and figured out how to change it, so having some protected time to make money off of your work is at least fathomable.

But _the sequence itself_? Insane. Other scientists can't even research other  ways to find it, etc. It's akin to the first guy who saw a horse getting protection that prevents other people from even _talking about_ horses, much less doing anything with other horses they see.


----------



## Banshee16

Fast Learner said:


> Indeed, and patents are even being granted on _gene sequences_, as well has knowing what the sequence means, how to detect it, and how to alter it.
> 
> I can at least understand the arguments for the latter three: you did the work figuring out what a particular sequence does, figured out how to detect it, and figured out how to change it, so having some protected time to make money off of your work is at least fathomable.
> 
> But _the sequence itself_? Insane. Other scientists can't even research other  ways to find it, etc. It's akin to the first guy who saw a horse getting protection that prevents other people from even _talking about_ horses, much less doing anything with other horses they see.




I'm not against a company getting compensated for developing a medication.  

On the simplest level, I don't feel any company should have the right to patent the finding that lowering cholesterol reduces heart disease.

I *do* feel a company has the right to patent a medication they create that lowers cholesterol.

There's a difference.  It is a really dangerous road to go down, to allow the patent laws to be applied in this way.

Banshee


----------



## IronWolf

Fast Learner said:


> I can at least understand the arguments for the latter three: you did the work figuring out what a particular sequence does, figured out how to detect it, and figured out how to change it, so having some protected time to make money off of your work is at least fathomable.




Unfortunately this means only those with money can get certain genetic testing done. This often isn't covered by insurance or is excluded by companies explicitly which leaves the patient to have to pay the entire bill for the test. A bill that is far from affordable. And even more fortunate, it is sometimes the basis for what treatment to recommend.

So while companies have an interest to protect their R&D expenses, it is coming at a cost to people's health.


----------



## Banshee16

IronWolf said:


> Unfortunately this means only those with money can get certain genetic testing done. This often isn't covered by insurance or is excluded by companies explicitly which leaves the patient to have to pay the entire bill for the test. A bill that is far from affordable. And even more fortunate, it is sometimes the basis for what treatment to recommend.
> 
> So while companies have an interest to protect their R&D expenses, it is coming at a cost to people's health.




It's a tough issue.  At the end of the day, doctors etc. are supposed to help people.....and their ability to do so should not be limited because some company somewhere was granted a patent for some kind of biochemical mechanism.  At that point, you're hurting a patient, or preventing them from getting assistance, in the interest of generating profit.

IMO, that's just not right.

This chain of discussion isn't really relevant to tablets, however, so I'd hate to see the discussion get closed down.

Banshee


----------



## Relique du Madde

Just updated to Xoom ICS  

I love the new boot up animation.
- I'm not sure about the new clock... the "tron" enspired one was ok.
- I like the new icons ALOT.... especially the click glow
- OMG the transitions are fast. 
- Android apps also seem to respond quicker.
- App and widget menus.. are so much better.  I like how they are now re like transparent cards that are shuffled.
- I wish I was able to keep my old stock wallpapers.... I love that little android listening to music. :< bad google!

Dislikes:
- What no face unlock?!?!  I'm not going to use it but I at least want to play around with it (to see if it can lock using my garden gnome)
- I wish there were app groups in the app menu like in gingerbread.  Those came in handy...


----------



## Banshee16

Relique du Madde said:


> Just updated to Xoom ICS
> 
> I love the new boot up animation.
> - I'm not sure about the new clock... the "tron" enspired one was ok.
> - I like the new icons ALOT.... especially the click glow
> - OMG the transitions are fast.
> - Android apps also seem to respond quicker.
> - App and widget menus.. are so much better.  I like how they are now re like transparent cards that are shuffled.
> - I wish I was able to keep my old stock wallpapers.... I love that little android listening to music. :< bad google!
> 
> Dislikes:
> - What no face unlock?!?!  I'm not going to use it but I at least want to play around with it (to see if it can lock using my garden gnome)
> - I wish there were app groups in the app menu like in gingerbread.  Those came in handy...




I haven't had much success with wallpapers....I'm using ADW Launcher on my Transformer, and I just can't figure out what size I need to get a wallpaper to display correctly.  Everything that worked great before no longer works.

I might turn ADW Launcher off once I do the ICS upgrade, and see how the whole thing works, stock.

Banshee


----------



## Janx

Fast Learner said:


> Indeed, and patents are even being granted on _gene sequences_, as well has knowing what the sequence means, how to detect it, and how to alter it.
> 
> I can at least understand the arguments for the latter three: you did the work figuring out what a particular sequence does, figured out how to detect it, and figured out how to change it, so having some protected time to make money off of your work is at least fathomable.
> 
> But _the sequence itself_? Insane. Other scientists can't even research other  ways to find it, etc. It's akin to the first guy who saw a horse getting protection that prevents other people from even _talking about_ horses, much less doing anything with other horses they see.




One of Michael Crighton's last books was about the concept that a corporation can patent a gene sequence that they found in a donated sample and that thus they own the source (that is, the person who made the donation).

Discoveries should not be patentable.

creations should be.


----------



## Banshee16

IronWolf said:


> Unfortunately this means only those with money can get certain genetic testing done. This often isn't covered by insurance or is excluded by companies explicitly which leaves the patient to have to pay the entire bill for the test. A bill that is far from affordable. And even more fortunate, it is sometimes the basis for what treatment to recommend.
> 
> So while companies have an interest to protect their R&D expenses, it is coming at a cost to people's health.




Not only that......but a company in the US that is profit oriented and focused on providing assistance only to those with money could use a patent on a gene sequence to prevent health providers in Canada, Mexico, and much of the EU that believe in universal health care from helping their own citizens.

Banshee


----------



## falcarrion

Looks like Apple scored big during the holiday season.
37.04 million iPhones, 15.4 million iPods and 15.43 million iPad during this busy holiday season.


----------



## Banshee16

falcarrion said:


> Looks like Apple scored big during the holiday season.
> 37.04 million iPhones, 15.4 million iPods and 15.43 million iPad during this busy holiday season.




Yup, good numbers.  Probably a few factors going on there...

1-People interested in the Siri idea buying the phone..

2-Sales in Q3 were down, possibly because customers were holding off on renewing until the new phone came up.....so you had Q3 sales getting pushed into Q4.

3-Lawsuits limiting access to some of the most popular Android devices in particular markets contributed on some level, I'm sure.

Good for Apple!

I'm curious whether Android, which was down Q4 in comparison, will have higher numbers for Q1, now that Ice Cream Sandwich is starting to appear on devices that are actually available?

Banshee


----------



## Relique du Madde

Banshee16 said:


> I'm curious whether Android, which was down Q4 in comparison, will have higher numbers for Q1, now that Ice Cream Sandwich is starting to appear on devices that are actually available?
> 
> Banshee



Also don't forget that people tend to wait until the big Conferences to see what new Android product is coming out.  I knew a lot of people who are into Android who waited until CES before thinking about making an android purchase.

Sadly, because how badly Motorola is ran, everyone who got a Droid Razor during December was burned bad by the time CES was over.


----------



## Alan Shutko

Relique du Madde said:


> Sadly, because how badly Motorola is ran, everyone who got a Droid Razor during December was burned bad by the time CES was over.




Isn't that the case with any Android phone, though? You know that whatever you buy this week will suddenly look bad compared to something that gets announced next week. 

Sure, with Apple if you buy right after the product is released you know you'll have a year with the latest device, but on the flip side, if you want something cooler, you've got to wait a year. With Android, you just wait five minutes.


----------



## Relique du Madde

In the case of the Droid Razor it's you would have been burned since Motorola decided to re-release the Droid Razor with a larger battery as the Razor Maxx and Droid Razor with multiple colors one month later, or if you could wait till next month a Droid 4 which is the same as a Razr but with a keyboard.

As for the other phones, I look at it like this, you never know when your phone will die catastrophically.   If I bought a phone in January and it fell off a boat in June, I'd rather buy a new current phone or wait one or two months (for a better one) then wait 6 months for the next model or by a 6 month old model like you would in the apple system.

The same thing applies to tablets and computers.


----------



## Janx

Relique du Madde said:


> In the case of the Droid Razor it's you would have been burned since Motorola decided to re-release the Droid Razor with a larger battery as the Razor Maxx and Droid Razor with multiple colors one month later, or if you could wait till next month a Droid 4 which is the same as a Razr but with a keyboard.
> 
> As for the other phones, I look at it like this, you never know when your phone will die catastrophically.   If I bought a phone in January and it fell off a boat in June, I'd rather buy a new current phone or wait one or two months (for a better one) then wait 6 months for the next model or by a 6 month old model like you would in the apple system.
> 
> The same thing applies to tablets and computers.




If you lost your new smartphone that you bought with a 2 year contract so the price was subsidized, you'd really pay $600-800 for a newest model phone to replace it out of contract?


Or would you find a cheaper deal, older model, or worst case, cheapest phone possible to wait out until your contract renews?


----------



## Banshee16

Alan Shutko said:


> Isn't that the case with any Android phone, though? You know that whatever you buy this week will suddenly look bad compared to something that gets announced next week.
> 
> Sure, with Apple if you buy right after the product is released you know you'll have a year with the latest device, but on the flip side, if you want something cooler, you've got to wait a year. With Android, you just wait five minutes.




And good luck getting the Apple product when it's released.  When I got my iPhone 4, I couldn't even *get* one until November of 2010.....even though it was released in....what...June?  July?

Maybe that's part of the reason I've been so blasé about it.  My expectations were so high based on how much the people around me talked it up, and the marketing, that maybe it didn't have a chance.

Android's a little more tricky.  Seems like at least until recently, I didn't see much marketing for it, and had no idea how to tell what was a good phone vs. a bad phone.  My brother got a Samsung Galaxy S II, and loves it, and after rooting it exclaims about how fantastic it is, and my father got a Samsung Defy, which has pretty much everything locked down, so it really doesn't seem very impressive at all.  But is that really the phone's fault?  There's such a range in the devices.....

Further, it seems sometimes that the hardware manufacturers are making hardware corrections for what are essentially software problems.  My brother's Galaxy S II had terrible battery life when he first got it.  It would last *maybe* 8 hours *if* he didn't use it.  He was going to return it.  Then we read about a battery bug in some older versions of Android, and he learned that between Samsung and his carrier, his phone was like 4 iterations of Android behind.  He rooted it, thus getting the newest version of Android, and there was a dramatic change in battery life...night and day.

To me, that would appear to indicate that the device didn't need a bigger battery....it needed them to actually be timely with their updates.

The whole thing with releasing a product, then a new product right after to fix a perceived flaw happens with companies other than Motorola.  ASUS is doing that with the Transformer Prime.  The Prime is getting rave reviews *except* that WiFi/GPS is getting interference from the aluminum chassis......so they've already announced a new product that has a plastic strip along the top of the back, and 1080p resolution.  Of course, that's not exactly making some people who bought the Prime very happy.

Banshee


----------



## Alan Shutko

Banshee16 said:


> And good luck getting the Apple product when it's released.  When I got my iPhone 4, I couldn't even *get* one until November of 2010.....even though it was released in....what...June?  July?




I had no problem getting the iPhone 4 on day one.  Ok, the 11 hour line was a bit extreme....  (Seriously, I thought by getting there early it would be a few hours max... By noon, I'd been there long enough I was committed! And probably should have been committed....)


----------



## Banshee16

Alan Shutko said:


> I had no problem getting the iPhone 4 on day one.  Ok, the 11 hour line was a bit extreme....  (Seriously, I thought by getting there early it would be a few hours max... By noon, I'd been there long enough I was committed! And probably should have been committed....)




Kudos to you for patience.  I've reached the point in my life that I'm "line averse".  I think Boxing Day is the only thing I've been willing to wait in line for, the last few years, and I haven't even done that for 3 years.  Nowadays, I just find the deals online, order through the websites, and then maybe go to the stores to check out additional deals....like at 11 am.  No more standing in -20 C temperatures at 4 am to be first to get to something in the store. 

I'm usually on the run, so if there's a line, I'm moving on.  After that initial day, it was weeks of checking at the local stores to see if they got any inventory in.  And it'd be hit or miss.  You'd check every day, and there'd never be a shipment, then the one day you forget is the day they'd get 5 of them in, and they'd be sold out by 9:30 am.

Just not worth it to me.

Banshee


----------



## Relique du Madde

Things are getting interesting.  4Q'11 reports are indicating that Apple had 59% of the tablet market share, Android had 38%, and Windows 1%.  Unknown is however, are the true numbers of each tablet in use.

-Sent via tappatalk


----------



## Fast Learner

Those are, as usual, iPads actually sold to consumers vs. Android (and Windows) tablets shipped to warehouses and stores. Same kind of numbers last summer, with sell-through on Android tablets coming in at about 10% of shipped.

Not super-interesting, imo.


----------



## Relique du Madde

Thats why I put down the last like "Its not know what are the true numbers of those *in use* because obviously iFans don't think any Android tablet are ever sold even thought they are.


----------



## Fast Learner

It's not a matter of being an "iFan", it's a matter of facts. You wrote "Apple had 59% of the tablet market share, Android had 38%", which is simply factually wrong. 

If you said, for example, "Apple had 59% of the tablets shipped, Android had 38%," and then added the disclaimer about use then it might have been true, and certainly wouldn't have inspired comment by me, anyway.


----------



## JoeGKushner

Terminology is important.

Android grabs more tablet market share: survey - Yahoo! News

The shipped part does stand out.

But the other article notes that things are following the phone market where iphone is pretty much the bomb and the most sold phone but the phone o/s isn't kind, andoird is. Which is pretty much what a lot of people said when the whole thing started that underfunding by phone companies who, turns out do sell tablets, would help push android out further.

It'll be an interesting year with ipad 3 probably coming out latter on and some of the larger tablets hitting the stage. I like my Toshiba Thrive but do wish it was a little bigger for reading RPG pdfs.

Android tablets closing in on iPad: researcher - Yahoo! News


----------



## Alan Shutko

JoeGKushner said:


> But the other article notes that things are following the phone market where iphone is pretty much the bomb and the most sold phone but the phone o/s isn't kind, andoird is.




We'll see.  According to Good Technologies, iPad had 94.7% of total tablet activations.  Android had 5.2%.  (Good sells an alternative email infrastructure for enterprises, similar to Blackberry's BES.)  Here's another report from Chitika showing the numbers of tablet ad impressions.  The kicker is the most popular tablet is 2.4% of the iPad impressions. The four they listed total 5.75% of the iPad ad impressions.

This is where shipped vs sold is making the big difference. Android manufacturers are certainly stuffing tablets in the sales channel, but there's no evidence they're selling.


----------



## JoeGKushner

Alan Shutko said:


> We'll see.  According to Good Technologies, iPad had 94.7% of total tablet activations.  Android had 5.2%.  (Good sells an alternative email infrastructure for enterprises, similar to Blackberry's BES.)  Here's another report from Chitika showing the numbers of tablet ad impressions.  The kicker is the most popular tablet is 2.4% of the iPad impressions. The four they listed total 5.75% of the iPad ad impressions.
> 
> This is where shipped vs sold is making the big difference. Android manufacturers are certainly stuffing tablets in the sales channel, but there's no evidence they're selling.




I have been interested in how the enterprise has grown with the iphone and ipad. usually it used to be that I never heard about the apple products being in such use but its also good because competition is good.


----------



## Banshee16

Alan Shutko said:


> We'll see.  According to Good Technologies, iPad had 94.7% of total tablet activations.  Android had 5.2%.  (Good sells an alternative email infrastructure for enterprises, similar to Blackberry's BES.)  Here's another report from Chitika showing the numbers of tablet ad impressions.  The kicker is the most popular tablet is 2.4% of the iPad impressions. The four they listed total 5.75% of the iPad ad impressions.
> 
> This is where shipped vs sold is making the big difference. Android manufacturers are certainly stuffing tablets in the sales channel, but there's no evidence they're selling.




I checked the stats for a bunch of sites I've developed and Android tablets consistently come in at about 15% of all tablet traffic visitors.  One site had them as 0% but the rest averaged between 15-20%.

It's obviously a smaller sample, but it's what I'm seeing.

The Playbook doesn't show up at all.

Banshee


----------



## Fast Learner

Perhaps unsurprisingly, the Kindle Fire has suddenly become a huge proportion of the total Android tablet world.

(The article starts with the same shipment/sales failure, but the data below that is actual use.)


----------



## Banshee16

I tried going to that link but I get a security warning that the site is insecure and someone may be trying to hijack my connection.

I could definitely see the Fire being a big proportion of Android tablets.  It's the cheapest so it'll have appeal for casual users.

My parents wouldn't even consider an iPad but at the sale prices for Boxing Day they were willing to get a Playbook (similar price as the fire).  It's replaced their iPod Touch which they found a pain to use.  I tried it out and it's really smooth, actually.  No crashes, decent selection of apps for casual use etc.

I do think there's a market for $200 tabs.   Around here ye Transformer Prime still seems the most popular.  Keeps selling out at the moment.  So some people seem willing to spend higher rates on non-Apple tablets....but I think you'll see big numbers from the Fire and Nook.

Banshee


----------



## Fast Learner

Banshee16 said:


> I tried going to that link but I get a security warning that the site is insecure and someone may be trying to hijack my connection.



Bizarre. It's Flurry Analytics' blog and Chrome (which is usually crazy paranoid about such things) has no complaints.

To summarize it shows two pie charts titled "*End User Application Sessions by Android Tablet*". 

*November 2011*
Samsung Galaxy Tab: 63%
ASUS Transformer: 13%
Acer Iconia Tab: 11%
Motorola Xoom: 6%
Amazon Kindle Fire: 3%
Other: 4%

*January 2012*
Amazon Kindle Fire: 36%
Samsung Galaxy Tab: 36%
ASUS Transformer: 7%
Acer Iconia Tab: 7%
Motorola Xoom: 4%
Toshiba Thrive: 3%
Other: 7%


----------



## Banshee16

I've been reading about the Windows 8 tablets (or at least how the OS is supposed to work for them), and I'm still not convinced...

As I understand it, to deliver long battery life for mobile, they're going with a different chipset than the desktop/laptop computers running Windows 8 will use.

So that'll improve battery life.  But my understand is that the huge library of existing Windows software will not run on that new chipset....so the Windows 8 tablets won't benefit from being able to use all the various Windows programs out there.

Is that correct or incorrect?  If it's incorrect, I'm not sure how they're supposed to dethrone Android...

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16

Relique du Madde said:


> Also don't forget that people tend to wait until the big Conferences to see what new Android product is coming out.  I knew a lot of people who are into Android who waited until CES before thinking about making an android purchase.
> 
> Sadly, because how badly Motorola is ran, everyone who got a Droid Razor during December was burned bad by the time CES was over.




I'm thinking that myself.  End of October is Apple Freedom Day for me.  I thought I'd lean towards the Galaxy Nexus, or the Galaxy S III, whenever it comes out....but by October, those'll be "last year's device", with something new, likely built for Jelly Bean or whatever, coming out probably in Jan/Feb.

Either that, or I might go back to Blackberry, depending on what QNX on phones is like.  My wife's asking to ditch her iPhone and go back to Blackberry or maybe to Android as well.

Banshee


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

Pardon me, but isn't Blackberry "having issues" these days?


----------



## Alan Shutko

Well, they're sort of imploding as fast as they can, but now that they've gotten rid of the bizarre co-CEO thing they had going, they might be able to turn things around.


----------



## Banshee16

I'm not convinced about whether they'll go under or not.  I guess we'll see.

They're definitely not popular with the American blogosphere at the moment.  But as a company, they've still got 75 million customers, they've got no debt, billions in cash reserves, and their products are still selling (though not nearly as fast as iOS or Google phones).

My understanding is that when looking at their revenue, cash reserves, sales, profit, and assets, their stock is currently undervalued.

They have to improve their marketing, and get QNX onto their darned phones.  If they ever get this Playbook 2.0 update out, then it speaks positively to their survival, given Blackberry devices will be able to run Android apps.

At the moment, the iPhone's not cutting it for me as a business phone.  I'm not 100% a touchscreen Android will fix my reservations about typing on glass.  The business apps I've found for iOS aren't as strong as the business ones I had on my Blackberry just two years ago.  So I might go back.

Of course, if RiM gets weaker, or gets purchased or whatever, then it'll be a moot point.

So we'll see, I guess.

EDIT: The other factor is that there may be a lot of political pressure on the current government to prevent RiM from completing an implosion.  They've taken a big perception hit in some ways by their failure to do much of anything to save Nortel, yet their willingness to give taxpayer funded money to help save Chrysler/GM/Ford, who are American companies, who *I think* employed fewer employees *in Canada* than Nortel did.  And consequently allowed IP derived through Canadian research (much of it also subsidized by taxpayer money) to basically be snapped up by foreign companies.  The current ruling party is big on doing things that keep them in power, and if they see that they're taking political hits by standing by while RiM goes down the drain, watch them change their tune.

But, again, we'll see.  I'm not delusional.  I know they're in trouble.  I just think the problems may be a little blown out of proportion.  I highly doubt they'll ever get back to top spot.  Apple and Google are just too big, and too popular.  But they could be a comfortable third.  That'll all depend on if they can get their act together.  They've got serious issues about being unable to make and then keep timelines, at the moment, and it's just killing them.

Banshee


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

Everyone has, by now, heard that iPad3 is coming very soon...but I hadn't seen this until today:

Apple, Suppliers Test Tablet With Smaller Screen - Yahoo! Finance

An iPad Mini?  Interrrrrrrrrresting...very interrrrresting.


----------



## Agamon

iPad mini?  I have one.  It's called an iPod Touch.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

I have one myself.

Currently, Dad uses an iPad2 in his medical practice, but he misses the portability of his ole Palm.  I tried to point out to him that the iPod Touch had a biger screen than the Palms, and was full of features- including a zoom- but I think the bigger screen of the iPad2 seduced him.  It will be easier for him to read his journals and books on it, after all.

Still, a smaller iPad may just fit into the sweet spot of size & function for him.


----------



## Banshee16

As I understand it, Steve Jobs wasn't a supporter of the idea of a smaller tablet.  How long his wishes control the direction of product development, who knows?

One thing I've learned since looking at Apple again is that, due to their secrecy, there are always tonnes of rumours regarding what they are, or are not working on.

Is the iPad or is it not going to be like a big iPod Touch?

Are they or are they not releasing an iPhone 5 in fall 2011?

Will or will not the new iPhone still be built of glass?

Is or is not the iPhone made of gorilla glass?

Will they or won't they have a retina display on the new iPad?

Are they or are they not making a version (or the next) Macbook Air to be a dockable keyboard and tablet, inspired by the ASUS Transformer?

And it goes back way further than that....that's just since I started paying attention.

I guess we'll see.  They may come out with a smaller tablet to fight the Kindle Fire and Nook and other Android tablets....but then, their sales of the 10" iPad 2 are pretty darned good already....they may not feel they have to.

Banshee


----------



## falcarrion

I read a rumor that Samsung and LG have produced 65 million retina displays for the Ipad 3. 
I also read that Apple has sold 55 million Ipads within the last 7 quarters.

I guess on March 7 we will see if the Ipad3 is real or not.

And will there stocks skyrocket more than they have already?


----------



## IronWolf

Banshee16 said:


> I guess we'll see.  They may come out with a smaller tablet to fight the Kindle Fire and Nook and other Android tablets....but then, their sales of the 10" iPad 2 are pretty darned good already....they may not feel they have to.




I'm not convinced it is screen size that has driven sales of the Fire and Nook, but that it is the price of the Fire and Nook that drive sales. 

For a long time I said I would buy a tablet in a minute if it was functional and in the $250 to $300 price range. I suspect the Fire and the Nook captured a lot of the folks that were more in tune with that price than they were excited about a smaller screen size.

Hard to say I guess. I have just never found myself saying, I wish my iPad screen was smaller.


----------



## Fast Learner

I predict -- and will actually bet money if anyone's interested -- that there will in fact be a new iPad introduced on March 7, it will feature a quadruple resolution display and quad-core processor, and that there will not be a smaller iPad of any kind in 2012.

I also predict (but will not bet money) that at that same March 7th announcement we'll see a new AppleTV (a small box mostly like the current one, not a television set) and that there will be an iPhone 5 next Fall but not before.


----------



## John Crichton

IronWolf said:


> I'm not convinced it is screen size that has driven sales of the Fire and Nook, but that it is the price of the Fire and Nook that drive sales.
> 
> For a long time I said I would buy a tablet in a minute if it was functional and in the $250 to $300 price range. I suspect the Fire and the Nook captured a lot of the folks that were more in tune with that price than they were excited about a smaller screen size.
> 
> Hard to say I guess. I have just never found myself saying, I wish my iPad screen was smaller.



Exactly.  The primary reason people are buying the Fire is the price point.  Screen size, if it's even a factor is down the list.


----------



## Janx

Fast Learner said:


> I predict -- and will actually bet money if anyone's interested -- that there will in fact be a new iPad introduced on March 7, it will feature a quadruple resolution display and quad-core processor, and that there will not be a smaller iPad of any kind in 2012.
> 
> I also predict (but will not bet money) that at that same March 7th announcement we'll see a new AppleTV (a small box mostly like the current one, not a television set) and that there will be an iPhone 5 next Fall but not before.




I suspect your prediction is right.

Apple does new +1/2 iPhone iterations annually.  The 4s came out in the fall, instead of the usual July because of the Japanese tsunami.  At this point, they will probably just keep it to the fall launch day.

Apple seemed to have followed the same pattern with iPad.  No reason they would deviate.  They have good sales and do NOT need to fragment their product line with variant models.

AppleTV seems like a better idea as a cheap add-on box that everybody can use, rather than a full TV that can only target people in the market for a new television.  The cycle may have shifted, but most americans expect a TV to last a long time.  My last one saw use from 1988 to 2007.  The current ones are HD and have been serving since 2007 and I have no desire to replace them anytime soon.


----------



## Splurch

Guys, I'm about to get a tablet and wasn't sure which one to get, I figured I'd ask you all since you are in the know. I will mainly use it for entertainment (surfing net, reading books, some games) also I would use it to put pdf's of my rpg books on it so I don't have to carry them all to my games (rpg apps would be a big plus too). I'm looking at anything from a Kindle Fire/Nook Tablet to an IPAD or Asus Transformer. 

Thanks in advance for the help.

Mel


----------



## falcarrion

My best advice is try one out before buying. If you have a Best Buy store or simular try out the Ipad and the Asus. Also check out the other android units like the Samsung. This will give you a better idea of which operating system you like. 
I have been an Ipad owner since it came out. And I have never been happier.
There are some great rpg apps.
But others here have andriod units that they love also. We try are best to give you the best info in real life use of various tablets.
When you do get one. Come back and let us know what you like or don't like about it.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

I love my iPad2, but it doesn't support Flash.  Nice big screen, long battery life.

Some of those Androids are pretty sweet, too.

When faced with choosing between the Nook and the Kindle Fire to be given as a door prize, I went with the Nook.  The KF at the time was experiencing an uptick in negative user reviews.


----------



## falcarrion

Janx said:


> AppleTV seems like a better idea as a cheap add-on box that everybody can use, rather than a full TV that can only target people in the market for a new television.  The cycle may have shifted, but most americans expect a TV to last a long time.  My last one saw use from 1988 to 2007.  The current ones are HD and have been serving since 2007 and I have no desire to replace them anytime soon.




But for us gamers, the apple tv can be used in different ways.
You can use it to throw a map up on the tv from an ipad. 
With mirroring ability it opens up new ways of using it.
If we just look at it as a tv box then it is nothing different then the others out there. But if we look at it as device to expand what we can do, then it is an amazing item.
I sure we could find different ways of using it between us right here.


----------



## Janx

falcarrion said:


> But for us gamers, the apple tv can be used in different ways.
> You can use it to throw a map up on the tv from an ipad.
> With mirroring ability it opens up new ways of using it.
> If we just look at it as a tv box then it is nothing different then the others out there. But if we look at it as device to expand what we can do, then it is an amazing item.
> I sure we could find different ways of using it between us right here.




Nothing you said invalidates my statement.  Since you started quoting me with a "But", you're proposing a counter-point, but I do not see anything you said to that effect.  Nothing you said can't be done with AppleTV as $99 add-on or AppleTV as a full television set.  All I'm doing is explaining details of why I agree with Fast Learner's prediction.

AppleTV as a box to connect to your TV = more people who could use it.  AppleTV as an actual Television set with Apple stuff inside = less people who are likely to buy it because the # of people in the market for a new TV or willing to replace their current TV is less than the number of people who would spend $99 to add a doo-hickey to their TV for extra features.

As to using the $99 AppleTV to put your iPad on TV for gaming, you could also buy the Component, HDMI or VGA adaptor for less $$ and get the same thing (albeit, you are stuck with a cable connecting your TV to your iPad).


----------



## Splurch

Thanks, I tried a few out today but I'm still undecided. I have an IPOD touch but I'm really a PC guy so I'm torn. I really think I have to figure if I need flash or not, or if the apps that apple have are too much to give up.


----------



## Fast Learner

The iPad 3 will be out in less than a month; it'll be much nicer than the iPad 2 for the (likely) same money, and the super-high-resolution screen will be especially nice for PDFs. 

It's quite possible that Apple will continue to sell the iPad 2 at a reduced price, too.

As such I'd wait a bit longer. The announcement will be on March 7 and the new devices will likely go on sale within a week or so of the announcement.


----------



## Agamon

Just got a Transformer Prime.  It is rather awesome.  Highly recommended.


----------



## Splurch

Agamon, are you having any trouble with the Wi-fi or GPS?


----------



## John Crichton

Splurch said:


> Guys, I'm about to get a tablet and wasn't sure which one to get, I figured I'd ask you all since you are in the know. I will mainly use it for entertainment (surfing net, reading books, some games) also I would use it to put pdf's of my rpg books on it so I don't have to carry them all to my games (rpg apps would be a big plus too). I'm looking at anything from a Kindle Fire/Nook Tablet to an IPAD or Asus Transformer.
> 
> Thanks in advance for the help.
> 
> Mel



If you are looking to have PDFs for RPG materials you need to go with a bigger screen.  Go with the iPad 2 or if you want to wait for the 3 for either a price drop or whatever upgrades it has.  We use our iPad all the time at the gaming table but the Fire's screen is just too small.

Don't worry too much about Flash support.  It soon won't be that much of a problem.  I thought it would really hinder my enjoyment of the iPad but it hasn't much at all.

That all said, just hit the store and try out a few from as many brands as you can.  See if anything really nabs ya.  The only *really *important thing I'd say is to make sure you get is one with a 10" screen for what it sounds like you want to use it for.


----------



## John Crichton

Agamon said:


> Just got a Transformer Prime.  It is rather awesome.  Highly recommended.



Any reasons specifically?  Have you compared it to the iPad?



Fast Learner said:


> The iPad 3 will be out in less than a month; it'll be much nicer than the iPad 2 for the (likely) same money, and the super-high-resolution screen will be especially nice for PDFs.
> 
> It's quite possible that Apple will continue to sell the iPad 2 at a reduced price, too.



I think this is an absolute lock.  Even if Apple doesn't, many places will go that route anyway.  Plenty of people did this around the iPad 2 launch.  It's a good call for those worried about sinking so much money into a non-essential device.



Fast Learner said:


> As such I'd wait a bit longer. The announcement will be on March 7 and the new devices will likely go on sale within a week or so of the announcement.



Hopefully they won't have the production problems like last time where many people had to order and wait about a month to get their hands on the unit.  It didn't drive me THAT crazy but it was a slight annoyance.

But yes, definitely wait until the iPad 3 hits to see if any of the features really catch your eye.  It may make up your mind for you.


----------



## GreenLantern

I already have the iPad2 but I'm very excited about the rumored iPad3.  If the retina level display and LTE support is true, I may just have to get another iPad.


----------



## Janx

GreenLantern said:


> I already have the iPad2 but I'm very excited about the rumored iPad3.  If the retina level display and LTE support is true, I may just have to get another iPad.




why?

the iPad1 has pretty good graphics.  the iPad2 has better, and the iPad3 will have even bettery graphics.

But is the jump from 1 revision to the next REALLY worth $500?

I could see upgrading every 2 years, like on iPhones, because contracts are up for renewal and you can get one for cheaper then, and the battery is likely on its lifespan end.

What motivates you to want to upgrade your 1 year old device that probably works great to the newest gen model?


----------



## Agamon

John Crichton said:


> Any reasons specifically?  Have you compared it to the iPad?




I've only messed a round a bit with an iPad2.  I have an iPod Touch, so I'm familiar with the OS and iTunes and such.

My comment wasn't comparing to the iPad, just that it's a nice unit.  But it's quadcore, pretty slick even after the ICS update.  And it's cheaper than an iPad2, I guess.  I'm an Android guy, so I was would have been predisposed to it in the first place, but I did my homework to make sure I was getting what I wanted.


----------



## falcarrion

Janx said:


> Nothing you said invalidates my statement.  Since you started quoting me with a "But", you're proposing a counter-point, but I do not see anything you said to that effect.  Nothing you said can't be done with AppleTV as $99 add-on or AppleTV as a full television set.  All I'm doing is explaining details of why I agree with Fast Learner's prediction.
> 
> AppleTV as a box to connect to your TV = more people who could use it.  AppleTV as an actual Television set with Apple stuff inside = less people who are likely to buy it because the # of people in the market for a new TV or willing to replace their current TV is less than the number of people who would spend $99 to add a doo-hickey to their TV for extra features.
> 
> As to using the $99 AppleTV to put your iPad on TV for gaming, you could also buy the Component, HDMI or VGA adaptor for less $$ and get the same thing (albeit, you are stuck with a cable connecting your TV to your iPad).



Sorry. I wasn't trying to say that your remarks where invalid.
As for me wireless is a big deal. I hate having wires running everywhere.
With the anouncement today of ox Mountain Lion having air play you will be able to display your apple computer on your tv. The HDMI or VGA adaptor don't give you the same thing. The Apple tv is more. And will become more as time goes buy.


----------



## GreenLantern

Janx said:


> why?
> 
> the iPad1 has pretty good graphics.  the iPad2 has better, and the iPad3 will have even bettery graphics.
> 
> But is the jump from 1 revision to the next REALLY worth $500?
> 
> I could see upgrading every 2 years, like on iPhones, because contracts are up for renewal and you can get one for cheaper then, and the battery is likely on its lifespan end.
> 
> What motivates you to want to upgrade your 1 year old device that probably works great to the newest gen model?





Two reasons:

1. I like to read ebooks on my iPad2, so with a higher resolution screen, the reading experience should be better due to sharper text.

2. I only have the wifi version of the iPad2 and want an iPad with more general connectivity.  Having experienced the blazing speed of a 4G network, a 4G enable iPad would be fantastic!


----------



## Janx

GreenLantern said:


> Two reasons:
> 
> 1. I like to read ebooks on my iPad2, so with a higher resolution screen, the reading experience should be better due to sharper text.
> 
> 2. I only have the wifi version of the iPad2 and want an iPad with more general connectivity.  Having experienced the blazing speed of a 4G network, a 4G enable iPad would be fantastic!




First, thanks for responding.  I'm not making fun of you, I'm genuinely curious what motivates somebody to make a jump on a year old device.  Bear in mind, everything else below is just my opinion on why your reasons don't sway me to do the same.

Technologically, I'm dubious that higher resolution than the current really good level is going to matter.  Yes, I'm sure it'll look nice, but I can read eBooks just fine on my iPad1.  It'd be great if you could post back with a comparison of the two when you upgrade and give it a serious consideration of "is text reading really that much better".

On 4g, that does sound more like a commercial endorsement   As a side note, the 3g speed on the iPhone 4s was faster in tests than the other 4g Carriers.  Part of this is because the range of speeds capable by 3g and 4g as defined by their carriers and enabled by technology upgrades had overlap.  Basically, being 4g is no indicator of actual speed or being faster than a given 3g segment of network.

That's also trumped by WiFi.  Which is more likely to be throttled by the ISP the WiFi is hooked up to than the WiFi protocol (802.11b is 11Mb/s speed.  Residential DSL/Cable is just finally catching up to that).  At Starbucks, yes your 4g signal will probably be faster than whatever minimalistic connection they provide.  At home, maybe not.  At work, if you are at a big enough corporation, most likely not.

I'm leary of paying another $30/month or so for a data plan on an iPad.  I already have to pay for my iPhone (two of them!).  I do have a MiFi from work, and that's a better solution than the USB wireless modem I used to carry for my laptop, because all the doohickeys I carry can use the MiFi for the price of one subscription.  A MiFi is about $10 cheaper per month than the USB doohickey (whose proper name I can't recall so early in the morning).

I have no doubt the iPad3 will be nice.  And having internet anywhere is a no-brainer for niceness.  Is it so much better that everybody should upgrade from an iPad2?  I'm not so sure.

Side question for GreenLantern:  what do you plan to do with the iPad2?  Sell it or pass it on to somebody else, or let it sit on your shelf of last year's technology?

I think options 1 or 2 let it see more use, retaining its value.  Buying an iPad3 and letting the iPad2 collect dust is where the expense gets compounded.


----------



## Alan Shutko

Janx said:


> Technologically, I'm dubious that higher resolution than the current really good level is going to matter.  Yes, I'm sure it'll look nice, but I can read eBooks just fine on my iPad1.  It'd be great if you could post back with a comparison of the two when you upgrade and give it a serious consideration of "is text reading really that much better".




FWIW, I find reading text on my iPhone 4 to be a bit nicer than the iPad 1, because it has the retina display. It's so clear that even though the iPad is bigger, it's almost a tossup which one I want to use.  I'm looking forward to a retina iPad which would be a big improvement for me.


----------



## Janx

Alan Shutko said:


> FWIW, I find reading text on my iPhone 4 to be a bit nicer than the iPad 1, because it has the retina display. It's so clear that even though the iPad is bigger, it's almost a tossup which one I want to use.  I'm looking forward to a retina iPad which would be a big improvement for me.




I've got the same hardware.  I much prefer reading on my iPad1 when I browse news sites, facebook, etc.  I find the iPhone4 screen print to be smaller and blurrier.

Bear in mind, I am far-sighted.  Looking at close, small things is harder for me.  I can still read books with no glasses, but small print is not my comfort zone.

while true eBooks (ePub, etc) will reformat to fit the screen and font size, I have a proper Ebook reader for those (Sony eReader I got for xmas).  For everything else, like websites, the best I can do is get Safari to snap in on the main body of text, which will enlarge it to an extent.  If I want it bigger, I'm screwed, because then I have to keep scrolling sideways back and forth to read.  Hence, the iPad is superior, because I can actually read the "snap-in" font size.


----------



## Alan Shutko

Janx said:


> Bear in mind, I am far-sighted.  Looking at close, small things is harder for me.  I can still read books with no glasses, but small print is not my comfort zone.




Ahh, I'm near-sighted.  I think that explains the difference.


----------



## GreenLantern

Janx said:


> First, thanks for responding.  I'm not making fun of you, I'm genuinely curious what motivates somebody to make a jump on a year old device.  Bear in mind, everything else below is just my opinion on why your reasons don't sway me to do the same.
> 
> Technologically, I'm dubious that higher resolution than the current really good level is going to matter.  Yes, I'm sure it'll look nice, but I can read eBooks just fine on my iPad1.  It'd be great if you could post back with a comparison of the two when you upgrade and give it a serious consideration of "is text reading really that much better".
> 
> On 4g, that does sound more like a commercial endorsement   As a side note, the 3g speed on the iPhone 4s was faster in tests than the other 4g Carriers.  Part of this is because the range of speeds capable by 3g and 4g as defined by their carriers and enabled by technology upgrades had overlap.  Basically, being 4g is no indicator of actual speed or being faster than a given 3g segment of network.
> 
> That's also trumped by WiFi.  Which is more likely to be throttled by the ISP the WiFi is hooked up to than the WiFi protocol (802.11b is 11Mb/s speed.  Residential DSL/Cable is just finally catching up to that).  At Starbucks, yes your 4g signal will probably be faster than whatever minimalistic connection they provide.  At home, maybe not.  At work, if you are at a big enough corporation, most likely not.
> 
> I'm leary of paying another $30/month or so for a data plan on an iPad.  I already have to pay for my iPhone (two of them!).  I do have a MiFi from work, and that's a better solution than the USB wireless modem I used to carry for my laptop, because all the doohickeys I carry can use the MiFi for the price of one subscription.  A MiFi is about $10 cheaper per month than the USB doohickey (whose proper name I can't recall so early in the morning).
> 
> I have no doubt the iPad3 will be nice.  And having internet anywhere is a no-brainer for niceness.  Is it so much better that everybody should upgrade from an iPad2?  I'm not so sure.
> 
> Side question for GreenLantern:  what do you plan to do with the iPad2?  Sell it or pass it on to somebody else, or let it sit on your shelf of last year's technology?
> 
> I think options 1 or 2 let it see more use, retaining its value.  Buying an iPad3 and letting the iPad2 collect dust is where the expense gets compounded.




No worries as I fully understand that everyone will have differing opinions as to whether the (rumored) benefits of the iPad3 will justify a purchase, particularly if one already owns the iPad2.  To address your side question though, I would probably give my iPad2 to my mom, who likes the simplicity of the interface (versus say a Windows laptop).


----------



## JoeGKushner

Real question is how much money are you willing to spend? If it'su nder $300, that cuts out many android tablets and thus far I believe, all ipad tablets.


----------



## Banshee16

Android 4.0 Ice Cream Sandwich is rolling out for the original ASUS Transformer starting today.  It'll be interesting to see how it affects performance.

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16

Splurch said:


> Thanks, I tried a few out today but I'm still undecided. I have an IPOD touch but I'm really a PC guy so I'm torn. I really think I have to figure if I need flash or not, or if the apps that apple have are too much to give up.




Splurch, it depends on what you're looking for.  If you're really a PC guy, you might want to include the Android tablets in your research as they tend to be a little more PC-like.

These are my personal observations.

Make no mistake, Flash isn't the only thing Android tablets have going.  At least so far, they've had  higher res screens than the iPad 2, though you have to be careful....some, such as the Xoom and Thrive have screens that aren't as bright, and have poorer viewing angles.  I think the best screens (for Android) are the ASUS Transformer Prime, Samsung Galaxy Tab 10.1, and ASUS Transformer, in that order.

Part of the problem is that whether iOS or Android, one or the other did *something* first......Android had Cloud storage etc. a year before iOS did....but now they both have it.  Android has Flash, but Flash is becoming less relevant, since Adobe is moving away from it *for mobile*.

However, there are still millions of sites out there that still make extensive use of Flash, and HTML 5 isn't capable of doing nearly as much as Flash is, so it's not going to replace Flash.....yet.  But it's coming.

That having been said, services like OnLive, for a subscription fee, give you access to a full desktop browser and Flash...whether on your iPad or an Android tablet.

The iPad has very limited connectivity options....basically, using prioprietary Apple connectors/converters to get USB or whatever into the tablet, no memory card slots, etc.  However, both iPad and Android tablets can use cloud storage services like Dropbox for moving files.  I'm not a huge fan of cloud storage services....I use them, but:

A) You're always dependent upon a network connection, and if it's via 3G (phone tethering), you can use up a lot of your data moving files around.

B) File transfer speeds are still slow.  Dropbox takes 20x as long to move files as simply plugging in a microSD or SDcard, putting files on it, and pulling it out.

Android devices have better ability to move files via Bluetooth, as they're not locked down in the same way as iOS is.  I can move files (documents, music files, movies) in moments via Bluetooth from my Transformer to *any* device with Bluetooth *except* anything running iOS due to the restrictions in that OS.  Whether it's iPhone to iPhone, iPhone to iPad, iPad to whatever, you just have fewer options that way.

Besides which, call me paranoid, but I'm just always nervous about putting my files on someone else's servers.  At some level, you have to accept there could be some dude clicking and looking at your stuff that you just uploaded, and to ask yourself if that's an acceptable risk.  I mean, even Mark Zuckerberg allegedly (according to an article I read this week) called Facebook users fools for trusting him with their information, photos etc, very early on in the life of Facebook.  I'm just very sensitive about that kind of thing.....but that's my own, personal feeling.  It comes down to your risk tolerance.

If you want to load movies like Digital Copies from Blurays and watch them on your tablet, there are more choices on iPads.  You have the iTunes Store, and you Digital Copies are innately compatible.  For Android, you have fewer options for purchasing files.  I am not sure if I can take a movie purchased in the iTunes store and play it on Android....I haven't tried it.  For Digital Copies, *some* movies are now coming out Android compatible, and supposedly able to be loaded to a tablet......but I haven't figured out how to do it...you have to use PocketBlu, and I'm not sure how that works.

There is a better selection of apps for the iPad.  But, Android tabs tend to render Javascript better in my experience.....so some websites function better/correctly on Android, whereas on the iPad, they don't.  We have a rich text editor built into our company's CMS, and it works correctly on Android with no extra programming....but my partners with their iPads are unable to use it.  Comes down to differences between how the two devices use Javascript.  As to Android, don't listen to those who go on about there being only 600 apps or whatever. There are more, and many of the ones that aren't optimized for tablets yet still work.  They go to full screen, and in some cases just have more wasted space...but they work fine.  Plus, I find some things like Facebook actually don't need an app, since the website, even the chat, works fine in the browser....so, do you really need an app?  That comes down to preference.

There is talk about Android malware......but if you stick to apps that either come from prominent publishers, or ones with a lot of positive reviews etc., and stay away from porn and stuff like that, you'll likely be fine.  I haven't encountered a single piece of malware yet.  Or a single virus.  It's like with your PC.  Download from trusted sources, and you'll generally be fine.

With an Android tablet if things like connecting a USB keyboard or mouse, external storage hard drive etc. are important to you, it's much easier.  I use my tablet as a virtual laptop much of the time....going so far as sometimes docking my Transformer to the keyboard, and then plugging a mouse into the USB port and bang.....pretty much a perfect netbook.

Apple's generally got superior battery life.  Not as good as a docked Transformer, but then you're talking about a device that, with keyboard attached, probably weighs 2-3x as much.  But take away the dock, and I think Apple lasts longer than any of the other Android devices....excepting *maybe* the Transformer Prime.

Apple's typically more reliable with updates....when they come, they come to everyone.  Not everyone gets every feature....but they all get the update on the same day, which is nice.  With Android, ICS was announced/released in what...November?  And it's been a gradual trickle down of the update to other devices over the months since.

As others have said, budget makes a difference as well.  If you have $200 to spend, the Kindle Fire, Nook, and Playbook (particularly with OS 2.0 that launched this week) are your best bets.  Which one you prefer largely depends on things like how married you are to Amazon services.  The Fire is useless as an option in Canada, since we can't use the American Amazon services.  If you're in the US, that's not an issue.

If you have $300 or more, your options open up.  Stick with the main tablets if you're getting into higher price points.....avoid the cheaper stuff......ones like the Acer A100, Xoom, Samsung Galaxy Tab 10.1 and ASUS Transformer seem to be the best received of the full size tablets on the Android side...then you have the iPad.  Given the iPad 3 may be coming out within a month or so, you may want to wait to make a final decision.

I won't say one is better than the other.  For the things that matter to me, Android was the choice...whereas for other people, they like iOS better, and neither choice is right/wrong.  There are advantages and disadvantages to each.  Try them out and see for yourself what appeals to you better.

Banshee


----------



## falcarrion

Nicely laid out there Banshee.


----------



## Splurch

thanks Banshee, I really appreciate the info


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## falcarrion

Has anyone else been playing around with the ios app "Air display'?
It will let you mirror what is on your computer to your Ipad.
So far I have tried Maptools, Herolab, Forgottem realms atlas.
And have had them running fine. 
I have done this on a wifi only network. No internet.


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## Alan Shutko

falcarrion said:


> Has anyone else been playing around with the ios app "Air display'?




I used it with Adobe Illustrator while playing in ToEE to do real-time mapping and share it with the others around the table.  It was both fun and somewhat faster than the guy doing paper.

I've also used it as a second monitor for my MacBook when doing stuff, but that's not gaming related.


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## Fast Learner

I love Air Display, and it works equally well with Mac and Windows. I regularly use it as a third monitor, and use it as a second monitor for my laptop when I'm at the coffee shop (with my own, second wifi network for the iPad so it doesn't suffer the whims of the public wifi speeds).


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## falcarrion

so what is everyones opinion on the new Ipad?


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## Alan Shutko

falcarrion said:


> so what is everyones opinion on the new Ipad?




Mine is very simple. I _want_ that screen.


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## IronWolf

I think it looks like a decent move from Apple. I will wait to hear what folks say once they have it in their hands though. 

I am currently using a Generation 1 iPad and I am pretty happy with it. Not sure I am ready to shell out more money to replace the one I use or not.


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## Dannyalcatraz

Re: sales figures

According to CNN's Kristie Lu (just aired live on CNN @3:20AM CST):


Android Tablets sold worldwide- 12M
IPads sold worldwide last _quarter_: 15M

So if her numbers are right, Apple's competitors in the tablet market have quite a gap to close.

As for the new iPad, I'd love one, but I just got my iPad2 in December, so I won't be upgrading soon- as in this year- unless it is for business.  And THAT won't happen for months, if at all.






(Besides, I have guitars, amps & pedals to buy, and jewelry to make.)


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## John Crichton

falcarrion said:


> so what is everyones opinion on the new Ipad?



Nice upgrades, especially the screen, but not nearly enough to shell out another chunk of cash.  I'll be looking to the 4th generation iPad for a potential upgrade.  For those who need/want it for the 4G I imagine it will rock their socks.


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## Janx

has anybody actually seen a full writeup on the iPad 3 (correction, "the new iPad").  I'm surprised that nothing has really come through on my usual news source.

While a faster/bigger screen, CPU is always nice, these are the predictable upgrades.  I'm curious about anything else they put on it.

And the name change sucks.  Not versioning their products adds confusion and breaks the trend with the existing iPhone and iPad numbering.


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## Alan Shutko

Janx said:


> has anybody actually seen a full writeup on the iPad 3 (correction, "the new iPad").  I'm surprised that nothing has really come through on my usual news source.




Not yet. Just the initial hands-on impressions from the announcement. We probably won't have a full writeup until they ship.



> And the name change sucks.  Not versioning their products adds confusion and breaks the trend with the existing iPhone and iPad numbering.




Well, it's the same as they do with Macs and the iPods.


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## John Crichton

Janx said:


> has anybody actually seen a full writeup on the iPad 3 (correction, "the new iPad").  I'm surprised that nothing has really come through on my usual news source.
> 
> While a faster/bigger screen, CPU is always nice, these are the predictable upgrades.  I'm curious about anything else they put on it.
> 
> And the name change sucks.  Not versioning their products adds confusion and breaks the trend with the existing iPhone and iPad numbering.



Apple's new iPad: Hands-on | Apple - CNET News


----------



## Mallus

My wife's decided it's time for a tablet. We're going with a refurbished 16 GB, wifi-only, iPad 2 straight from the Apple Store -- new battery, new case, same warranty as new for $350. Seems like a good deal.


----------



## IronWolf

Mallus said:


> My wife's decided it's time for a tablet. We're going with a refurbished 16 GB, wifi-only, iPad 2 straight from the Apple Store -- new battery, new case, same warranty as new for $350. Seems like a good deal.




Refurb should be fine, but I saw an email from CDW today with the iPad G2 going for $399 new. Something to keep in mind if you do want new, but really with the warranty being the same, the refurb should be fine.


----------



## Mallus

IronWolf said:


> Something to keep in mind if you do want new, but really with the warranty being the same, the refurb should be fine.



Yeah - it's only a $50 difference, but my wife is happy with a refurbished model, so, therefore, I'm happy with it, too .


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## Fast Learner

Mallus said:


> Yeah - it's only a $50 difference, but my wife is happy with a refurbished model, so, therefore, I'm happy with it, too .



Plus $50 buys quite a lot of apps.


----------



## Felon

Janx said:


> has anybody actually seen a full writeup on the iPad 3 (correction, "the new iPad").  I'm surprised that nothing has really come through on my usual news source.
> 
> While a faster/bigger screen, CPU is always nice, these are the predictable upgrades.  I'm curious about anything else they put on it.



The camera is now 5MP. There's a 4G option. That's about it. And for a stupidly high number of people, that will be enough.


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## Fast Learner

Felon said:


> The camera is now 5MP. There's a 4G option. That's about it. And for a stupidly high number of people, that will be enough.




"Stupidly high" in what sense?


----------



## Felon

In the traditional sense of "stupidly high" or "stupidly expensive" or "stupidly popular". Meaning something equivalent to "in excess of what a rational assessment would justify".


----------



## Fast Learner

What's a non-stupid amount?


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## Banshee16

Fast Learner said:


> What's a non-stupid amount?




Something lower than the current stupid number 

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16

Felon said:


> The camera is now 5MP. There's a 4G option. That's about it. And for a stupidly high number of people, that will be enough.




Yes....a friend of mine just bought his iPad 2 a few months ago.  The day after the "new ipad" was announced, he posted on Facebook he's looking for someone to buy a used iPad 2.

Talk about a way to blow money.

Banshee


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## Alan Shutko

Banshee16 said:


> Talk about a way to blow money.




Not necessarily a lot, though. I've seen enough people who take very good care of their devices, keep the box and everything, and can upgrade to the new devices when they come up for a net of under a hundred dollars.  Apple devices have really good resale value.


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## Felon

Fast Learner said:


> What's a non-stupid amount?



In a perfect world--or, for that matter, in the Asain markets--you'd see numbers that indicate customers are promoting healthy competition between brands rather than slavish devotion to one or--what is even more prominent--blind consumption of whatever has the most buzz at the moment. We wouldn't see huge spikes in disparity between, say Apple and Samsung tablets that are fairly close in specs. We wouldn't see the Fire outselling the Nook by leaps and bounds, despite the baken-in limitations of the former that the latter doesn't have. Or, going outside of tablets, you'd see the PS3 performing better in sales against the Xbox, and we wouldn't have had a couple of years of Wii's selling for $1000 on eBay and now they gather inordinate amounts of dust on store shelves.

The American market is simply not very savvy at consumption, because when it comes to products, it's easier to go with a brand than to educate yourself about feature sets. All that leads to lopsided numbers that can be best be described as "stupidly high".


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## Felon

Banshee16 said:


> Yes....a friend of mine just bought his iPad 2 a few months ago.  The day after the "new ipad" was announced, he posted on Facebook he's looking for someone to buy a used iPad 2.
> 
> Talk about a way to blow money.
> 
> Banshee






Alan Shutko said:


> Not necessarily a lot, though.



In other words, not a "stupidly large" amount.


----------



## IronWolf

Felon said:


> In a perfect world--or, for that matter, in the Asain markets--you'd see numbers that indicate customers are promoting healthy competition between brands rather than slavish devotion to one or--what is even more prominent--blind consumption of whatever has the most buzz at the moment. We wouldn't see huge spikes in disparity between, say Apple and Samsung tablets that are fairly close in specs. We wouldn't see the Fire outselling the Nook by leaps and bounds, despite the baken-in limitations of the former that the latter doesn't have. Or, going outside of tablets, you'd see the PS3 performing better in sales against the Xbox, and we wouldn't have had a couple of years of Wii's selling for $1000 on eBay and now they gather inordinate amounts of dust on store shelves.
> 
> 
> The American market is simply not very savvy at consumption, because when it comes to products, it's easier to go with a brand than to educate yourself about feature sets. All that leads to lopsided numbers that can be best be described as "stupidly high".




It comes down to more than just specs though, it comes down to entire ecosystems and the support behind the devices as well.

I *wanted* to buy an Android device and waited about a year before I finally gave in and bought an iPad (G1 on sale). When Apple initially released the iPad I was like, cool - now I just wait for the Android knock-off to come along and let me do the things I want with it (at the time I had a desire for USB ports). But I waited and really nothing came along in that time frame that made me want to part with the money for an Android device. So I bought the iPad. I haven't regretted it at all.

I wanted a low fuss device with the apps I wanted or the apps that I didn't know I wanted yet. Now I have a great tablet that does everything I want it to do. I haven't gone looking for an app yet and found that it was only available for "the other platform" and I can use my tablet daily for a large number of tasks. With cloud integration through dropbox or other such service I really don't have a need for USB or at least I haven't regretted not having USB access.

Hardware specs are just one part of the equation and certainly not the whole picture.

It is even evident with you Kindle Fire. With that you get the Amazon ecosystem. Some folks had already bought into that before the devices came out, now with a device it is just the natural choice. People don't want to fight hurdles and just want things to work. Sometimes a well put together ecosystem of support behind the device matters as much as the device itself for the user experience.

I wouldn't say I am unsavvy shopper. I waited for a year for Android devices to try to catch up and deliver the full experience. I'm less concerned with horsepower, specs, etc in these tablets than I am about the experience as a whole. For me the Apple won out easily even at a higher price point. The brought a product that delivered to my needs.

Now it has been sometime since I have looked seriously at the different options as my iPad has been keeping me happy. But I do keep up with this thread and I have yet to see any device mentioned that makes me think I should have gone with a different device.

I have nothing against the Android tablets, but to call American buyers unsavvy because they went with Apple is shortsighted. Sure some people buy it because its Apple. Just like some people buy Android because its Android. We have choices and folks can choose what they want - that doesn't make either device use unsavvy in their decision.


----------



## Fast Learner

Felon said:


> In a perfect world--or, for that matter, in the Asain markets--you'd see numbers that indicate customers are promoting healthy competition between brands rather than slavish devotion to one or--what is even more prominent--blind consumption of whatever has the most buzz at the moment.




With this system of wisdom, how do you discern the difference between "slavish devotion" and "actually better, even if you don't agree"?


----------



## Felon

IronWolf said:


> It comes down to more than just specs though, it comes down to entire ecosystems and the support behind the devices as well.
> 
> I *wanted* to buy an Android device and waited about a year before I finally gave in and bought an iPad (G1 on sale). When Apple initially released the iPad I was like, cool - now I just wait for the Android knock-off to come along and let me do the things I want with it (at the time I had a desire for USB ports). But I waited and really nothing came along in that time frame that made me want to part with the money for an Android device. So I bought the iPad. I haven't regretted it at all.
> 
> I wanted a low fuss device with the apps I wanted or the apps that I didn't know I wanted yet. Now I have a great tablet that does everything I want it to do. I haven't gone looking for an app yet and found that it was only available for "the other platform" and I can use my tablet daily for a large number of tasks. With cloud integration through dropbox or other such service I really don't have a need for USB or at least I haven't regretted not having USB access.
> 
> Hardware specs are just one part of the equation and certainly not the whole picture.



Up to this point, I think you provide a very valid point of view. It's not like an iPad is a bad device. A tablet is pretty much a luxury gadget, not something with a lot of productivity usage. That's an area where the "walled garden" approach excels. 
But the lack of savvyness is not merely a personal observation. Many companies are debuting new tech over in other markets simply because they are losing the urge to compete when they know a superior feature set just doesn't carry weight with Americans--not compared to the power of branding, at any rate. They're wiling to just forfeit at this point, and that's kind of sad to me, because I think we lose out. And their marketing research in every day experience. I get an iPad on loan from work, and people bother me about it on the subway or in coffee shops. My Toshiba Thrive, OTOH? I have no problem with anyone wanting to touch it.



Fast Learner said:


> With this system of wisdom, how do you discern the difference between "slavish devotion" and "actually better, even if you don't agree"?



Good question. The answer is skepticism. You examine their reasons for deeming something "better", and note when they are specious.


----------



## John Crichton

Felon said:


> In a perfect world--or, for that matter, in the Asain markets--you'd see numbers that indicate customers are promoting healthy competition between brands rather than slavish devotion to one or--what is even more prominent--blind consumption of whatever has the most buzz at the moment.



It's not the consumer's job to promote any kind of competition between brands.  It's the various companies job to do that.  There are very real reasons Android is still behind in the tablet world that can't be attributed to either "slavish devotion," "blind consumption" or "buzz".


----------



## catsclaw227

John Crichton said:


> There are very real reasons Android is still behind in the tablet world that can't be attributed to either "slavish devotion," "blind consumption" or "buzz".



While I agree with you for the most part, one cannot discount the "slavish devotion" that mac and iGadget fans have.  It's not just anecdotal, it's been well polled in the past.  For the most part, Apple fans will buy everything Apple even if the technology is more expensive and the product has less features. They epitomize the "fan" in "fanatic".

Obviously, there are exceptions, and yada, yada, yada...


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

> Many companies are debuting new tech over in other markets simply because they are losing the urge to compete when they know a superior feature set just doesn't carry weight with Americans--not compared to the power of branding, at any rate.




The American consumer is nor more or less savvy than consumers in other advanced nations, and the history of tech gadgetry is full of "better" products that simply failed...for a variety of reasons.

Sonya's Betamax format, for instance, lost out despite having branding & superior quality because it 1) wasn't first to market (being first has a correlation of 67% with success in the market- stronger than any other single factor) and 2) on introduction could only record half as long as a VHS, which 3) was cheaper.

High-quality, long duration reel-to-reel lost out to cheaper, lower cost cassettes because it was not portable.

Apple's iPads are giving people a combination of functions that the majority of people find overwhelmingly attractive.  For some it's the battery life.  For others, it's the size & weight.  Many prefer the depth, breadth and quality of the apps.

I'm typing this from my iPad2 because the business apps I wanted to run simply did not exist on any other tablet at the time of purchase...and still do not.  The closest competitors for Android do a fraction of what the Apple versions do.


----------



## John Crichton

catsclaw227 said:


> While I agree with you for the most part, one cannot discount the "slavish devotion" that mac and iGadget fans have.  It's not just anecdotal, it's been well polled in the past.  For the most part, Apple fans will buy everything Apple even if the technology is more expensive and the product has less features. They epitomize the "fan" in "fanatic".
> 
> Obviously, there are exceptions, and yada, yada, yada...



Apple fans are too easy of a target in these comparisons.  It would be one thing if the iPad (since we are talking tablets) sucked or didn't hold up to the feature set, app/software support and other key factors of what people are looking for in a tablet.  If only the Apple fans were buying iPads then there would be something real to talk about.


----------



## catsclaw227

Dannyalcatraz said:


> ...lost out despite having branding & superior quality because it 1) wasn't first to market (being first has a correlation of 67% with success in the market- stronger than any other single factor)...



First to market is huge, and in the case of the iPad, (generally) first to market and a huge client base and iPhone following catapulted it into the lead.  

I am guessing that if there had been an Android phone introduced at the same time as the first iPhone, and then a tablet at the same time as the iPad, the numbers would be much, much closer (and the app market would be similarly stocked).


----------



## catsclaw227

John Crichton said:


> Apple fans are too easy of a target in these comparisons.  It would be one thing if the iPad (since we are talking tablets) sucked or didn't hold up to the feature set, app/software support and other key factors of what people are looking for in a tablet.  If only the Apple fans were buying iPads then there would be something real to talk about.



Like I said, I agreed with you for the most part, but to ignore the fact that a strong percentage of Apple's fanbase is myopic is ummmm... short-sighted(?)

Think back a few years when Mac fans continually concluded that the Mac was the best graphic design platform, when PCs ran the same versions of Photoshop/Illustrator, yet were faster, better at multitasking, had more storage, and were less expensive.  A Mac user would argue 'til he was blue in the face, despite the benchmarks presented to him.


----------



## Fast Learner

Felon said:


> Good question. The answer is skepticism. You examine their reasons for deeming something "better", and note when they are specious.



You're not examining their reasons, you're simply claiming that yours are the non-specious ones.



catsclaw227 said:


> While I agree with you for the most part, one cannot discount the "slavish devotion" that mac and iGadget fans have.  It's not just anecdotal, it's been well polled in the past.  For the most part, Apple fans will buy everything Apple even if the technology is more expensive and the product has less features. They epitomize the "fan" in "fanatic".
> 
> Obviously, there are exceptions, and yada, yada, yada...



Over 315,000,000 iOS devices sold so far. What percentage of those do you believe were purchased through "slavish devotion", and what percentage are "yada, yada"?


----------



## catsclaw227

Fast Learner said:


> Over 315,000,000 iOS devices sold so far. What percentage of those do you believe were purchased through "slavish devotion", and what percentage are "yada, yada"?




As I said above (not sure if you read it yet before you replied), first to market was a huge deal, starting with the iPhone. For the most part, hardware quality, development barriers, cell/wifi service options are generally equal. Apple has a deeper app store due to being first to market.

It sells much better than Android phones for many reasons. But a big part of the reason is due to users buying what they already know.  In addition, there are extremely devoted apple fans that don't even look at other options and will get one regardless.  Why else would someone in a major metro area buy a new phone with a 2-yr plan that only has 3G service when there are less expensive, equally powerful Android phones that have 4G service?  So they can play games?

Apple has a HUGE name and they had great marketing early on.  Jobs made the iPhone what it is today.  And now Apple has an army of apple-ites that will buy the newest one, just because, without looking at comparative options.

Do you disagree that there are a LOT more Apple fans devoted to Apple than there are Android fans dedicated to Android?

They did the same thing with Mac vs. PC.


----------



## John Crichton

catsclaw227 said:


> Like I said, I agreed with you for the most part, but to ignore the fact that a strong percentage of Apple's fanbase is myopic is ummmm... short-sighted(?)
> 
> Think back a few years when Mac fans continually concluded that the Mac was the best graphic design platform, when PCs ran the same versions of Photoshop/Illustrator, yet were faster, better at multitasking, had more storage, and were less expensive.  A Mac user would argue 'til he was blue in the face, despite the benchmarks presented to him.



Apple has their fans and they also have their haters.  And everything in between.  Can't bring up one without the other and those numbers are nearly impossible to nail down.

And to call that fanbase short-sighted, slavish or anything else is also too easy when talking about why the iPad is still king of the tablets.  Not to mention untrue more often than not.


----------



## Felon

Fast Learner said:


> You're not examining their reasons, you're simply claiming that yours are the non-specious ones.



I haven't held my reasons out at all for you to inspect, so your own impartial judgment on the subject is pretty much worth nil. Let's bottom-line this: you saw me use the phrase "stupidly high", and that one utterly innocuous phrasage appeared on your HUD as some incendiary slander against that could not go unchallenged. To that end you feigned innocent curiosity about the word "stupidly" with dogmatic interest, at the same time I was trying to play it down for the sake of civility. The ultimate goal was to extrude a statement that you could openly attack, as you finally did, although you jumped the gun. All over a brand that you claim objectivity towards. Q.E.D.



John Crichton said:


> Apple has their fans and they also have their haters.  And everything in between.  Can't bring up one without the other and those numbers are nearly impossible to nail down.
> 
> And to call that fanbase short-sighted, slavish or anything else is also too easy when talking about why the iPad is still king of the tablets.  Not to mention untrue more often than not.



That's very politic. First you assert that their are fans and detractors, and that nobody can say anything about anything with utmost accuracy (which is all fundamentally hard to disagree with), yet then you speak as the authority of what is true more often than not. Play fair. You've made your own assertions about the iPad's success and its consumers. Don't dismiss others on the basis of their "unknowability".


----------



## catsclaw227

John Crichton said:


> And to call that fanbase short-sighted, slavish or anything else is also too easy when talking about why the iPad is still king of the tablets.  Not to mention untrue more often than not.



Sorry, I must not have been clear enough.  I meant that it is short-sighted (trying to be pun-ny) to ignore the fact that some of the Apple-base is myopic.  I didn't mean that the Apple-base was short-sighted.

And yes, they have haters, but the haters are directed more at the fans' attitude and not necessarily with the products themselves.

Me personally?  I am a tweener.  I will use what I find best serves my needs.  I have owned an iPhone and an Android phone.  I was thiiiiiis close to getting an iPad2 a couple of months ago, but I decided to wait for the new ASUS TF700 in June.  I'll just use my laptop, my smartphone and my PC until then.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

> Apple has their fans and they also have their haters. And everything in between.




Yup- I know people who won't buy anything except Apple, and know others who will buy anything but.  I know one guy who loathes that he- like me- has to use an iPhone for business purposes; he wants his electronic world to beApple free.

Personally, while I prefer Apple, I always look at the options before buying.  This has resulted in some- but not many- non-Apple purchases.  Hell, I've even recommended non-Apple products.


----------



## Fast Learner

catsclaw227 said:


> Do you disagree that there are a LOT more Apple fans devoted to Apple than there are Android fans dedicated to Android?



No, I agree that there are more Apple fans than Android. However, there are _maybe_ 3 million Apple fanatics, people who just buy whatever Apple makes, and that's a high-end estimate. Such "fanboys" have very, very little effect on the overall market. First to market, perception that the product is better, and, bizarrely, the fact that the product probably actually is better for most of those people, all have a much, much bigger effect.



Felon said:


> I haven't held my reasons out at all for you to inspect, so your own impartial judgment on the subject is pretty much worth nil.



It doesn't matter what your reasons are: your personal opinion that 90 million people are making a stupid decision buying an iPad tells me that you have a much higher estimation of your opinion that, at a bare minimum, 10 million smart people.



> Let's bottom-line this: you saw me use the phrase "stupidly high", and that one utterly innocuous phrasage appeared on your HUD as some incendiary slander against that could not go unchallenged. To that end you feigned innocent curiosity about the word "stupidly" with dogmatic interest, at the same time I was trying to play it down for the sake of civility.



I didn't feign innocent curiosity: like you, I downplayed my response for the sake of civility. My first internal iteration had the word  in it. Your reasoning turned out to be as personal and envy-based as I suspected, but I figured it was more polite to give you a chance to come up with something besides "they're stupid". You did not.


----------



## Felon

Fast Learner said:


> I didn't feign innocent curiosity: like you, I downplayed my response for the sake of civility. My first internal iteration had the word  in it. Your reasoning turned out to be as personal and envy-based as I suspected, but I figured it was more polite to give you a chance to come up with something besides "they're stupid". You did not.



You continue to serve as Exhibit A. Predicting that iPad 3 sales would be "stupidly high" didn't warrant an indignant response of any kind, vulgar or otherwise. Your dispostion that it was a red flag being waved in front of your face, followed by your bitter and angry vituperations, are all over-the-top and irrational. You're in denial of that even as it's explained to you. Some dire button is getting pushed. Some sensitive nerve is getting pricked. Some chip getting knocked off your shoulder.

Case in point: you say "envy-based". From which of my various glib statements do infer envy? Because *obviously* jealousy must motivate someone who says anything remotely critical of Apple consumers? Because it's such an exclusive and elite bunch? "Man, I wish I was cool enough to be one of them!"


----------



## Felon

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Personally, while I prefer Apple, I always look at the options before buying.  This has resulted in some- but not many- non-Apple purchases.  Hell, I've even recommended non-Apple products.



I owned an iPhone for a couple years myself. They were the phone to beat for a while, so I made a two-year investment. At work, they gave a handful of techs an Apple laptop to work with. It's very attractive, and a lot lighter than the HP laptops they usually assign, but it's mostly been sitting in a desk drawer until I can get around to setting it up with Boot Camp.


----------



## Fast Learner

Felon said:


> Predicting that iPad 3 sales would be "stupidly high" didn't warrant an indignant response of any kind, vulgar or otherwise.



Your implication is that purchasers were being stupid, which you verified. Indicating that I and a dozen friends and family are stupid does, in fact, get my ire up. 



> Case in point: you say "envy-based". On which of my various glib statements do infer envy? Because *obviously* jealousy must motivate someone who says anything remotely critical of Apple consumers? Because it's such an exclusive and elite bunch? "Man, I wish I was cool enough to be one of them!"



No, envy that the product you believe is inferior is vastly, vastly outselling the one you like.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

> It's very attractive, and a lot lighter than the HP laptops they usually assign, but it's mostly been sitting in a desk drawer until I can get around to setting it up with Boot Camp.




Are you having an issue with Boot Camp itself, or are you- like me- a tad lethargic in installing software?


----------



## Felon

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Are you having an issue with Boot Camp itself, or are you- like me- a tad lethargic in installing software?



I'm just busy...and lethargic 

It's tempting to just pop the Windows 7 Ultimate DVD in and go for a clean start. I don't know of any productivity use I might have for Mac OS that would be more advantageous, but I'd hate to miss out on something.


----------



## John Crichton

Felon said:


> That's very politic. First you assert that their are fans and detractors, and that nobody can say anything about anything with utmost accuracy (which is all fundamentally hard to disagree with), yet then you speak as the authority of what is true more often than not. Play fair.



To bring up that there are two sides to the fanbase argument that in your words has "slavish devotion" is playing fair.  Your opinion on what constitutes a better product is dripping with a sense that yours is the one that is right and anyone who doesn't agree is essentially a sheep who doesn't research products before purchase and only listens to others when making buying choices.



Felon said:


> You've made your own assertions about the iPad's success and its consumers. Don't dismiss others on the basis of their "unknowability".



Now who's projecting?

And I'll continue to dismiss any argument that makes only broad generalizations about who buys what and why they do it while being willingly ignorant of other factors.  Especially when it has the distinct odor of condescension all over it.


----------



## Felon

Fast Learner said:


> Your implication is that purchasers were being stupid, which you verified. Indicating that I and a dozen friends and family are stupid does, in fact, get my ire up.
> 
> No, envy that the product you believe is inferior is vastly, vastly outselling the one you like.



If you are interested in being civil, then do not act the part of the grand inquisitor, trying to draw out the dire inner thoughts of others so that you can then be justifiably outraged at them. If you avoid starting fights, you don't have to get your ire up. You can just let things slide. Of course, I don't think you actually are all that interested in civility. 

I certianly didn't call you or your family or any particular person stupid. And let me go ahead and head off your obligatory rebuttal: interpreting "consumers aren't savvy" or "people pay too much attention to branding" as an attack on you and your loved ones is not a sensible extrapolation. 

As to a product outselling the one I like, I am fairly certain that I have not indicated a preference to date. Rather, what I have indicated is that lack of diversity in the market is not healthy. It's a monopoly of the consumers' making.



John Crichton said:


> Your opinion on what constitutes a better product is dripping with a sense that yours is the one that is right and anyone who doesn't agree is essentially a sheep who doesn't research products before purchase and only listens to others when making buying choices.



OK, you've got it partially right. I didn't say "nobody should buy the iPad" or "everybody should buy this other product". What I said was we should see more diversity, and that branding is overvalued. In my workplace, for instance, I see it all the time. People are appropriating funds to buy iPads. When we sit down and try to inventory what they want to do with it, it's clear that an iPad is not a good fit. But they don't want to hear that we have alternative from Dell or HP that will work just as well. Those other options are instant non-starters. 

So, anyway, the part you got right is that there are a lot of uneducated consuemrs out there. That you inferred I have a horse in the race is the part where you went off-message.



John Crichton said:


> And I'll continue to dismiss any argument that makes only broad generalizations about who buys what and why they do it while being willingly ignorant of other factors.  Especially when it has the distinct odor of condescension all over it.



Then by your own criteria, you dismiss your own previous assumptions about the reasons for the iPad's success, as they were no less general in nature. I doubt you will, however, as you don't feel your conclusions are anything less than matter-of-fact. That's human nature for you.

As to consumer trends, and their enamorization with brands, I can only reiterate that it is not my conclusion alone, but one drawn by companies who in greater numbers eschew the market I consuem in.


----------



## John Crichton

Felon said:


> As to a product outselling the one I like, I am fairly certain that I  have not indicated a preference to date. Rather, what I have indicated  is that lack of diversity in the market is not healthy. It's a monopoly  of the consumers' making.



And that assumption is where you get into trouble.  We are dealing in an area where one company created the market and continues to dominate it.  The onus isn't on consumers to create diversity and competing products, that's on the makers of non-Apple tablets.  Either a superior tablet at the same price point or something significantly cheaper for similar features, app support and performance is the only way to make consumers bother with something that isn't an established product.

And your statement of branding being overvalued only strikes true if the products from that brand/product line aren't doing what they are supposed to compared to competing products.

And before you make your own assumption about what I just said, it boils down to this:  Both tablet manufacturers and consumers factor into the current market situation.  They both made it what it currently is.  And right now it's not the public's job to make change.  It's the manufacturer's job to put something else out there worth buying.  And since Apple created the market and continues to dominate it the other tablet makers are going to have to do more than just making something that equals what the iPad does.  They'll have to either put out a better all around product or their similar product will likely have to cost significantly less.  It's a proven formula.



Felon said:


> So, anyway, the part you got right is that there are a lot of uneducated  consuemrs out there. That you think I have a horse in the race is the  part where you went off-message.



I never said you had a horse in any race.  You put that in there.  Likely projecting as you've accused others of doing.

Nor did I say there were a ton of uneducated consumers out there.  That was you.



Felon said:


> Then by your own criteria, you dismiss your own previous assumptions about the reasons for the iPad's success, as they were no less general in nature. I doubt you will, however, as you don't feel your conclusions are anything less than matter-of-fact. That's human nature for you.



Consider both dismissed.  What we are left with is your condescension.


----------



## fanboy2000

Hmmm....haven't checked out this thread in a while. I wonder what's going on. I feel a strange urge to click on it.



Fast Learner said:


> Such "fanboys" have very, very little effect on the overall market. First to market, perception that the product is better, and, bizarrely, the fact that the product probably actually is better for most of those people, all have a much, much bigger effect.



Oh, hey. I've been summoned. Cool.

Charges of fanboyism in the tech field are kind of strange. In pop culture, it's easy. When someone says something like: "Why did you read X? Why is so much better." Then we have a fanboy. (I'm an expert.) Another fanboy favorite is, "You like X? Well you should watch Y, it's soooo much better." It's like a recommendation, but, depending on tone of voice, it can come across as the recommender patting themselves on the back for being able to discover Y before you did and having better taste.

Books, movies, and tv shows have a subjective quality that makes those kinds of comments superfluous unless someone has an agenda. But tech products are supposed to be useful. If X helps you achieve a goal, then there you go. But Y may be legitimately better depending on your goals.

When a product is popular, I don't think charges of fanboyism are appropriate because usually one of the defining factors of fanboyism is snobbery. I mean, nobody claims that MS Office's success is because of all the Office fanboys out there. Sometimes, Office really is the best choice for a person. Usually, fanboys are the one's decrying how bad the popular product is and how good some alternative is.

With Apple and iPads, I think part of the confusion is that Apple is the #2 product in desktops and laptops but #1 in phones and tablets that it simultaneously has "alternative" and "mainstream" status in tech.


----------



## Fast Learner

Felon said:


> If you avoid starting fights, you don't have to get your ire up.



Hilarious!


----------



## IronWolf

John Crichton said:


> And that assumption is where you get into trouble.  We are dealing in an area where one company created the market and continues to dominate it.  The onus isn't on consumers to create diversity and competing products, that's on the makers of non-Apple tablets.  Either a superior tablet at the same price point or something significantly cheaper for similar features, app support and performance is the only way to make consumers bother with something that isn't an established product.
> 
> And your statement of branding being overvalued only strikes true if the products from that brand/product line aren't doing what they are supposed to compared to competing products.
> 
> And before you make your own assumption about what I just said, it boils down to this:  Both tablet manufacturers and consumers factor into the current market situation.  They both made it what it currently is.  And right now it's not the public's job to make change.  It's the manufacturer's job to put something else out there worth buying.  And since Apple created the market and continues to dominate it the other tablet makers are going to have to do more than just making something that equals what the iPad does.  They'll have to either put out a better all around product or their similar product will likely have to cost significantly less.  It's a proven formula.




I definitely agree with this. It isn't the consumer's job to prop up the corporation by buying a product that they don't feel is up to the same caliber of the iPad. The corporation needs to produce something that is a real competitor, then it will get me looking more closely at it.

As I said earlier, I went into the tablet realm wanting to buy an Android tablet because I figured one of the makers would release something comparable and I could save a few bucks. It just didn't happen in the year I waited to buy a tablet. Things have changed and there are better Android tablets out now than when I made my decision, but from my cursory looks (I am not in the market for a tablet at the moment) there hasn't been one that is more compelling than the iPad for now. 

I hope that changes. I have no issues with competition in the marketplace, I'm just not going to be the one to prop that up with my dollars until there is something which is truly competitive when I look at the different tablets.


----------



## Felon

John Crichton said:


> I never said you had a horse in any race.



Specifically, the line about "dripping with a sense that yours is the one that is right" is what I was referencing. I don't have a particular pet product or brand.



> Nor did I say there were a ton of uneducated consumers out there.  That was you.



Yes, I was saying the part you got right was that I said that. The part you don't have right is the inference that I'm just having a go at folks who don't agree with me, because there's really nothing I'm seeking agreeement on. If anything, I'm seeking a multitude of options rather than just any one.



> Consider both dismissed.  What we are left with is your condescension.



I don't know where you're getting that from. I'm about as smug or self-possessed as the average person on a forum. In this instance, Fast Learner prompted me repeatedly to come out and speak my mind, made it clear that he was going to persist until I indulged him, so I did. Would've kept it to myself otherwise.


----------



## Fast Learner

Felon said:


> I don't know where you're getting that from. I'm about as smug or self-possessed as the average person on a forum. In this instance, Fast Learner prompted me repeatedly to come out and speak my mind, made it clear that he was going to persist until I indulged him, so I did. Would've kept it to myself otherwise.



Saying that the new iPad would sell in "stupidly high" numbers was certainly condescending. It was that very condescension that prompted my posting at all.


----------



## John Crichton

Felon said:


> Specifically, the line about "dripping with a sense that yours is the  one that is right" is what I was referencing. I don't have a particular  pet product or brand.



Yes, but you do have an opinion.  And that's what I was referring to.



Felon said:


> Yes, I was saying the part you got right was that I said that. The part  you don't have right is the inference that I'm just having a go at folks  who don't agree with me, because there's really nothing I'm seeking  agreeement on. If anything, I'm seeking a multitude of options rather  than just any one.



Then your system of delivery needs a serious overhaul.  Because it certainly isn't coming off like you are seeking anything at all.



Felon said:


> I don't know where you're getting that from. I'm  about as smug or self-possessed as the average person on a forum. In  this instance, Fast Learner prompted me repeatedly to come out and speak  my mind, made it clear that he was going to persist until I indulged  him, so I did. Would've kept it to myself otherwise.



Placing the  blame on others for what you do as opposed to owning it is the first  sign that something could be wrong.  Perhaps it's time to take a peak at your  own posts again just to make sure you are coming off correctly.

I speak from experience as someone who didn't realize how he was coming off at certain times.


----------



## Umbran

Folks,

This thread's supposed to be about tablet computers.  It seems instead to have become about the individuals speaking.  Please stop making this personal. 

Thanks.


----------



## Banshee16

John Crichton said:


> It's not the consumer's job to promote any kind of competition between brands.  It's the various companies job to do that.  There are very real reasons Android is still behind in the tablet world that can't be attributed to either "slavish devotion," "blind consumption" or "buzz".




Right.....and marketing has nothing to do with it?  I know plenty of people who've bought iPhones and/or iPads *because*.  Because they were told it's "what they have to have", and they're "better".  What do they actually use them for?  Not much.

Apple's got 10 commercials playing every evening when I watch TV.  It's ridiculous.  Obviously that generates appetite for the products.  When I see 5 Apple commercials in an hour, at some point I just want to pitch my coffee mug at the TV.  I mean....ok, I get it.  I should want to buy it.  It's a magical product that will turn my life around, and make a better cup of java, to boot.  I got that message from the last 1000 times I saw the commercial.

Hardware wise, many of the Android devices are just as good.....or better.  The software is definitely catching up.  Honeycomb definitely needed improvement, but I have ICS and iOS 5, and ICS is flat out better.  Better use of space, better layout, better integration of Google services....heck, the voice recognition is better than that on my iPhone 4 running iOS 5.1 (I understand that the iPhone 4 doesn't have Siri).

But Apple absolutely kills it in the apps, and that, I think, is the big difference.  Android is just not there with ecosystem.  Google's making improvements....if you're living in the U.S.  For the rest of us, no, the ecosystem is not there.  My tablet absolutely doesn't have the choice in apps I'd have on an iPad.  No question.  But it's got a lot of great ones.  

However.......I've never seen a commercial for my tablet in a year.  I've probably been exposed to commercials for the iPad a good 2000 times in the last year.  And for my own tablet, the only commercial I've seen is when I went to the manufacturer's website.

Many people I've talked with won't even TRY something different.  It's just "I want an iPad".  If I point out they can have one that costs less, has a longer lasting battery, a keyboard that can be attached to it, expandable memory, full control, USB ports to connect to other devices, and a higher resolution screen........they want an iPad.  It's just not rational.  Same thing with iPhone.  They go all giddy over Facetime for the first week, and then never use it again.  You ask what apps they have and....they haven't really downloaded any.  I've got an iPhone, and easily have 140 apps on it...but the people I know who speak more positively about the phone than I do barely have any.  Why is that?  Why have the phone if you're not going to use it?

It's like the Tickle me Elmo craze, but with computer equipment.  It's just not logical.

I'm not saying that the iPad is bad.  It's not.  It's a great device.  But I AM saying that the case for it being better than its rivals, and that there is really only one viable option for tablets is incorrect.  But the public is blasted with so much Apple PR that they don't know the difference.  Having $100 Billion or whatever in the bank lets a company buy ALOT of ad time....which only reinforces the problem.  They're basically at the point where the success of the product guarantees the further success of the product.  Instead of the continued optimal quality of the product guaranteeing the success of it.  In the long run that'll hurt consumers.

Banshee


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

Success has its own inertia- that's one of the reasons why being the first good product in the market is so strongly correlated with having a successful company.

This is especially true when you want to talk about tech.  One of the reasons why PCs outnumber Macs is that software advantage that started with the ability to run business software at home (as I recall, it was Lotus 1-2-3 that was the key program).  That utility meant that there was a large market which the PCs filled perfectly.  And that was an insurmountable obstacle for Apple ever being the #1 machine in the home computer market.  Sure, it dominates in certain markets, but barring a megavirus that knocks out every non-Mac out there, that won't change.

As a Mac user, I can run most of the important programs of the day natively in Mac OS (according to some of my programmer buddies, sometimes better on the Mac than on PCs).  For those I can't, I can run PC emulation software that is pretty dependable.  Even so, sometimes, the Mac versions aren't as fully featured as PC versions. not as supported.  Sometimes, the PC and Mac versions don't even speak to each other very well.  (I've gone through this with spreadsheet programs and even financial software.)

PC users don't have to jump through those hoops- their compatibility is built in.

In the tablet market, the shoe is on the other foot.  iPads run basically every app, so the early adopters went for it in droves.  People who wanted to have 100% compatibility with their buddies' tablets gravitated towards the tablets their buddies had...usually iPads.  That started the market domination snowball.

There ARE plenty of good tablets out there.  There are some features I'd love to see on my iPad2 that are on some of the competition's machines...

But for what I do, and what I'm expecting to do in the near future, there really was no meaningful alternative to the iPads.


----------



## Fast Learner

Banshee16 said:


> Many people I've talked with won't even TRY something different.  It's just "I want an iPad".  If I point out they can have one that costs less, has a longer lasting battery, a keyboard that can be attached to it, expandable memory, full control, USB ports to connect to other devices, and a higher resolution screen........they want an iPad.  It's just not rational.



Your test for rationality is based on the idea that this list of hardware differences makes that tablet better. I would argue that those are trivial differences, that what makes a tablet better is in fact a good OS and the available apps. 

With ICS on less than 1% of Android tablets, it doesn't matter how good it is, does it?

(As an aside, which Android tablets have a better battery, since I think that is one thing that actually matters?)


----------



## IronWolf

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> Right.....and marketing has nothing to do with it?




Marketing certainly is at play. Marketing is not necessarily evil, though I can certainly see how some might feel bombarded by Apple ads. I don't watch much TV, so I can't even remember the last time I saw an Apple commercial.



			
				Banshee16 said:
			
		

> Hardware wise, many of the Android devices are just as good.....or better.




In my opinion the Android devices will need to exceed iPad specs, not just match them at this point. I would have taken matched when the iPad first came out, not sure a matched set of hardware specs would convince me to switch at this point in and of itself.



			
				Banshee16 said:
			
		

> The software is definitely catching up.




How is support for that software over the lifetime of the device? I am more familiar with some of the phones than tablets, but I sort of was burnt by buying a new phone and then having it become ineligible for updates 10 months or so into its useful life. That is an issue. Is an Android tablet purchased a year and a half ago still getting current software updates?



			
				Banshee16 said:
			
		

> But Apple absolutely kills it in the apps, and that, I think, is the big difference. Android is just not there with ecosystem.




Yep - this is why I mentioned earlier, folks are less concerned with hardware specs. It is the ecosystem Apple brings to the table. It only takes an app or two to not exist on a platform to make people wonder why they paid X amount of dollars for their device when they could have bought the platform that runs the stuff they want to run. The Apple ecosystem is giving them a huge advantage and even entrenching them further as the leader.

For example, when I bought my tablet a year ago I was still on the fence - iPad or Android tablet. I chose iPad after looking at my available options. Now, to get me to to switch to an Android tablet would be much harder. I have apps on my iPad that I use and don't want to lose access to by switching tablet platforms.



			
				Banshee16 said:
			
		

> If I point out they can have one that costs less, has a longer lasting battery, a keyboard that can be attached to it, expandable memory, full control, USB ports to connect to other devices, and a higher resolution screen......




Battery life is important. Beyond that a lot of these simply aren't issues to the typical user. Issues for some? Yes - but I don't think they are for your typical user. 

I can attach a keyboard to my iPad if I want. 

Expandable memory would be nice, but I really haven't had the need to do so on my iPad, especially with cloud services for file storage. 

Full control simply isn't that important to people. It is the classic Linux versus Windows argument. A group of people do care about full control, but I don't think the majority do. Their tablet works, they already feel like they have full control because it does what they want, they don't want to dig deeper.

USB ports were my initial contention with the iPad when it was released. You would frequently hear me complain about them not being included. Time went by, nothing really stepped up and I bought the iPad. I haven't missed USB ports one bit. It just hasn't been an issue in the slightest.

I do think all the items you have listed could be important for some people in which case an Android device could be better. But I don't think these things matter to a lot of the tablet purchasers.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

> USB ports were my initial contention with the iPad when it was released. You would frequently hear me complain about them not being included. Time went by, nothing really stepped up and I bought the iPad. I haven't missed USB ports one bit. It just hasn't been an issue in the slightest.



A USB port would have been nice, but like you say, in use, I haven't really missed it as a practical matter.

I still wish there was some kind of removable drive support- it would be cool to use the same mini-drives in my iPad as I do in my LG phone, Sony camera, and Tascam portable guitar amp modeler/practice rig/recorder- but with so many options still fighting in the market, I'm not surprised Apple decided to wait until the field clears.


----------



## Felon

Banshee16 said:


> Many people I've talked with won't even TRY something different.  It's just "I want an iPad".  If I point out they can have one that costs less, has a longer lasting battery, a keyboard that can be attached to it, expandable memory, full control, USB ports to connect to other devices, and a higher resolution screen........they want an iPad.  It's just not rational.  Same thing with iPhone.  They go all giddy over Facetime for the first week, and then never use it again.  You ask what apps they have and....they haven't really downloaded any.  I've got an iPhone, and easily have 140 apps on it...but the people I know who speak more positively about the phone than I do barely have any.  Why is that?  Why have the phone if you're not going to use it?
> 
> It's like the Tickle me Elmo craze, but with computer equipment.  It's just not logical.



Well-said. The iPad is simply fashionable to have, just as the Apple store is generally not populated with people looking to consume anything. Just there because it's a trendy place to be.


----------



## Banshee16

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Success has its own inertia- that's one of the reasons why being the first good product in the market is so strongly correlated with having a successful company.
> 
> This is especially true when you want to talk about tech.  One of the reasons why PCs outnumber Macs is that software advantage that started with the ability to run business software at home (as I recall, it was Lotus 1-2-3 that was the key program).  That utility meant that there was a large market which the PCs filled perfectly.  And that was an insurmountable obstacle for Apple ever being the #1 machine in the home computer market.  Sure, it dominates in certain markets, but barring a megavirus that knocks out every non-Mac out there, that won't change.
> 
> As a Mac user, I can run most of the important programs of the day natively in Mac OS (according to some of my programmer buddies, sometimes better on the Mac than on PCs).  For those I can't, I can run PC emulation software that is pretty dependable.  Even so, sometimes, the Mac versions aren't as fully featured as PC versions. not as supported.  Sometimes, the PC and Mac versions don't even speak to each other very well.  (I've gone through this with spreadsheet programs and even financial software.)
> 
> PC users don't have to jump through those hoops- their compatibility is built in.
> 
> In the tablet market, the shoe is on the other foot.  iPads run basically every app, so the early adopters went for it in droves.  People who wanted to have 100% compatibility with their buddies' tablets gravitated towards the tablets their buddies had...usually iPads.  That started the market domination snowball.
> 
> There ARE plenty of good tablets out there.  There are some features I'd love to see on my iPad2 that are on some of the competition's machines...
> 
> But for what I do, and what I'm expecting to do in the near future, there really was no meaningful alternative to the iPads.




This is a perfectly cogent and logical answer.  And, on several of your points, I can't disagree with you.

I know everyone talks about Microsoft.....but.....they're starting from *way* behind.  That having been said, I'm hearing some really interesting ideas......XBox integration, convertible laptops similar to the Transformer, but where there's a second CPU in the keyboard itself, so when it's docked, it goes from a tablet with a dock to a device with two multi-core CPUs working together.

That's some interesting thinking....if they pull it off, it could change the landscape.

I've got no problem with people saying they like their iPad, or getting it because it's compatible with their friend's systems.  My main beef is the contention that it's the only option, and that the other tablets are crap.  I've been using my TF101 since August on a daily basis for work, and know that it's not crap.  Further, it's been useful in a number of situations that my business partners iPads have not been.  But, I don't have as many games.  Honestly though, when I want to play games, I turn on my XBox or desktop PC.

There are also other numbers I've seen, showing that Android has caught up a little more than it seems, if you look at *global* numbers, instead of just the US market.

Heck, even the Playbook (particularly with OS 2.0) is much better than it's given credit for.

There's room enough for both types of devices.

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16

Fast Learner said:


> Your test for rationality is based on the idea that this list of hardware differences makes that tablet better. I would argue that those are trivial differences, that what makes a tablet better is in fact a good OS and the available apps.
> 
> With ICS on less than 1% of Android tablets, it doesn't matter how good it is, does it?
> 
> (As an aside, which Android tablets have a better battery, since I think that is one thing that actually matters?)




The TF101 and TF210 tablets last longer *when docked*.  Those are the key ones I'm aware of.  The Galaxy Tab 10.1 is just a tad shorter than the iPad 2.

Your statement regarding advantages can be correct *from your viewpoint* and *according to your needs*.

From my perspective, there are few iPad apps that I *need* that don't have a counterpart on Android....either an Android version of the exact same thing, or a competitor with similar feature set.  What I miss out on are things that *to me* are fluff.  Doesn't mean they're not useful for someone else....just no real benefit for me.

Whereas those hardware features that you list as of trivial importance have actually been very important for how I use my tablet.

It's the view that *Apple's figured out the best way to do things, and if you need something else, you're not realizing the power of your device, or you're using it wrong* that I find annoying.  And I get this all the time from Apple fans.

I get it when I express frustration at things going wrong with my iPhone, and I get told "well you're using it wrong".  Well, "I push this button here, and look, it crashes", or "hey how come I can't search for an e-mail and find it by typing in keywords related to the content of that e-mail"?  "Oh, well, you don't really need to do that" or "I never search for emails, so I can't tell you".

They're definitely intriguing devices, but they're not perfect, and there are many users who need different features.

How about a notification LED to let me know I've got e-mail from a client that needs to be addressed?

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16

IronWolf said:


> Marketing certainly is at play. Marketing is not necessarily evil, though I can certainly see how some might feel bombarded by Apple ads. I don't watch much TV, so I can't even remember the last time I saw an Apple commercial.
> 
> 
> 
> In my opinion the Android devices will need to exceed iPad specs, not just match them at this point. I would have taken matched when the iPad first came out, not sure a matched set of hardware specs would convince me to switch at this point in and of itself.
> 
> 
> 
> How is support for that software over the lifetime of the device? I am more familiar with some of the phones than tablets, but I sort of was burnt by buying a new phone and then having it become ineligible for updates 10 months or so into its useful life. That is an issue. Is an Android tablet purchased a year and a half ago still getting current software updates?
> 
> 
> 
> Yep - this is why I mentioned earlier, folks are less concerned with hardware specs. It is the ecosystem Apple brings to the table. It only takes an app or two to not exist on a platform to make people wonder why they paid X amount of dollars for their device when they could have bought the platform that runs the stuff they want to run. The Apple ecosystem is giving them a huge advantage and even entrenching them further as the leader.
> 
> For example, when I bought my tablet a year ago I was still on the fence - iPad or Android tablet. I chose iPad after looking at my available options. Now, to get me to to switch to an Android tablet would be much harder. I have apps on my iPad that I use and don't want to lose access to by switching tablet platforms.
> 
> 
> 
> Battery life is important. Beyond that a lot of these simply aren't issues to the typical user. Issues for some? Yes - but I don't think they are for your typical user.
> 
> I can attach a keyboard to my iPad if I want.
> 
> Expandable memory would be nice, but I really haven't had the need to do so on my iPad, especially with cloud services for file storage.
> 
> Full control simply isn't that important to people. It is the classic Linux versus Windows argument. A group of people do care about full control, but I don't think the majority do. Their tablet works, they already feel like they have full control because it does what they want, they don't want to dig deeper.
> 
> USB ports were my initial contention with the iPad when it was released. You would frequently hear me complain about them not being included. Time went by, nothing really stepped up and I bought the iPad. I haven't missed USB ports one bit. It just hasn't been an issue in the slightest.
> 
> I do think all the items you have listed could be important for some people in which case an Android device could be better. But I don't think these things matter to a lot of the tablet purchasers.




I'm not saying marketing is evil.  That's not the point.  I was just talking about the sheer *number* of ads.  I'm online more than I watch TV, and they're in banners on tech blogs and other sites, they're in commercials on TV, they're in my local newspaper, in the local electronics stores, they tend to have full page insets for iPads vs nothing similar for the competition.  Make no mistake, they're pushing them.

And, talking with store managers around here, Apple gives them conditions regarding how much they have to spend on marketing the iPad, to be allowed to carry it.  So, make no mistake, consumers are hit on all sides.

Again, I'm not saying it's evil....but I *am* saying the disproportionate level of marketing spend has a definite impact on sales volume.

And, I agree, the features that are important to me, may not be to everyone.  Apple's done a great job of assessing what the average user may need, and also convincing them they don't need any more.

As to things like attaching a keyboard....it's not the same thing.  At all.  And I say that of any aftermarket keyboards for any of the tablets.  The Transformer's keyboard is an integrated part of the system.  It's got its own battery that doubles the life of the device, it has Android specific function keys, it's foldable, has multi touch on a mousepad etc.  There's a huge difference between that keyboard and any of the others.  To compare the accessory keyboards for iPad or Playbook or Galaxy Tab 10.1 is like comparing the iPad 2 to the Pandigital tablet.

Now, that combo of tablet plus keyboard is not relevant to all consumers.  I was just using it as an example, given it's what I have, and what I'm familiar with.

We'll see.  Looking worldwide, I read that Android tablets had 48% of sales in Q4 of last year. So they're catching up.  It's likely there's a real difference between the  dominance of Apple within the US as opposed to outside of the US.

Again, I'm not saying the iPad is bad.  It's a great product.  But the competitors are making great products too....but have far less marketing to get their message across.

Banshee


----------



## Chairman7w

Remember, too - it's so much moore than just the product.

My iPad broke.  Just wouldn't work.  I took it to the Apple store and walked out with a replacement, that my iTunes was able to configure and reload all my stuff (even my photos that I thought I lost) and it was *painless*.

Their service is wonderful and their stuff hits all the right sweet spots with me.


----------



## Chairman7w

Banshee16 said:


> I've got an iPhone, and easily have 140 apps on it...but the people I know who speak more positively about the phone than I do barely have any.  Why is that?  Why have the phone if you're not going to use it?
> 
> Banshee




You really know people that have an iPhone with barely any Apps?

I don't.  Apps are the whole reason for a smartphone.


----------



## Janx

Felon said:


> Well-said. The iPad is simply fashionable to have, just as the Apple store is generally not populated with people looking to consume anything. Just there because it's a trendy place to be.




Really?

People just go to the mall and hang out at the Apple store.  So they can be seen, hanging out at the Apple store?

While I suspect more than half of the world population is dumber than me, I do not think the Apple store is where shallow people hang out at.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

> You really know people that have an iPhone with barely any Apps?




I'm close.  I have few apps on my iPod Touch and iPad2- just the ones I seriously need, and most of THOSE were standard- but there are a few out there that may get me to pull the trigger a bit more often than I have in the past.



> People just go to the mall and hang out at the Apple store.




The adults are there to buy something, have something explained, or get something repaired.

But I've seen mall rats hang out at Apple stores like they would have done in the arcades of my youth...because they're playing games on the MacAirs and iPads.  They even have kid-height tables & seating for the grade-schoolers there with their parents so _they_ can play around on the machines.

And that is solid marketing "strategery"- hook them young, hook their buddies and you have won their money for a decade+.  I can't say the last time I saw a store giving that kind of unstructured, unsupervised access to the tech products anywhere else.


----------



## Mallus

Dannyalcatraz said:


> The adults are there to buy something, have something explained, or get something repaired.



That's my experience of the Apple Store on Walnut St. here in Philadelphia. 

It's not a hang-out --we have bars, restaurants, and the bottom part of South St. for that-- it's a busy shop full of people actually shopping. Honestly, I've never seen a retail store more full of engaged customers spending money. It's almost eerie. It almost has me believing in the mind-controlling powers of burnished aluminum...

But it's also true Philadelphians aren't a fashionable people. Maybe the fashionable people in other cities *do* hang out at the Apple Store.

(though I doubt it)


----------



## Janx

Banshee16 said:


> It's the view that *Apple's figured out the best way to do things, and if you need something else, you're not realizing the power of your device, or you're using it wrong* that I find annoying.  And I get this all the time from Apple fans.
> 
> I get it when I express frustration at things going wrong with my iPhone, and I get told "well you're using it wrong".  Well, "I push this button here, and look, it crashes", or "hey how come I can't search for an e-mail and find it by typing in keywords related to the content of that e-mail"?  "Oh, well, you don't really need to do that" or "I never search for emails, so I can't tell you".




Casual End users are of course going to be the worst at verbalizing the benefits of the design.

Everyone in the tech industry (as in working, not consuming) knows that Apple and Microsoft spend a lot on research on user interface, fonts, and workflow experiences.  Saying Apple found the "best way" is exagerating.  Saying they chose one of the best ways to do it in the scope of the design paradigm is a bit more precise.


What Apple does is simply the User Interface down to the commonly desired set of features.  A shorter feature list is easier to encompass in a simple user interface design.  Complex features require more interface and thus makes the system harder to use.

Basically, it's not rocket science.  I can make something easy to use by getting rid of all the advanced stuff that only 2% of the user base wants.

Which is why you get puzzled looks when you talk about search email by content.  Most people seldom need that.  heck, my Outlook still does a piss poor job at searching by content, so why should my Smart Phone be any better at it?

This is why Apple stuff is lighter on features.  All that control other systems have means more menu items, buttons, sub-menus that have to be incorporated into the user interface.


----------



## Alan Shutko

Chairman7w said:


> You really know people that have an iPhone with barely any Apps?




My wife is one of those people.  But hers is a hand-me-down and she's gradually accumulating apps.  But she never goes out looking for them. A small set of apps suit most of her needs.

One problem many companies have on the advertising front is that they simply make too many devices.  Since Apple only makes one tablet a year (in different sizes) all their ad spend can support it.  Samsung, for instance, make so many different devices their budgets are spread much more thin.  I've read that manufacturers are beginning to realize that they're fragmenting their own markets and are working on putting more focus on fewer devices.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

> But it's also true Philadelphians aren't a fashionable people. Maybe the fashionable people in other cities *do* hang out at the Apple Store.




Well, I'm in the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex, and our Apple stores are located in some of the highest income suburbs in the area- Southlake and Frisco.  Driving around those towns, you'll see hot stores, big houses, and people in cars that cost $300k+.  And this area is definitely fashion & money conscious.  There's a reason why the seats closest to the action in our sports venues are often the last to fill. 

And I wouldn't say I see the local fashionistas and trendsetters in the Apple stores.  You're going to see them, yes- they are freakin' everywhere- but not there.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

> Samsung, for instance, make so many different devices their budgets are spread much more thin. I've read that manufacturers are beginning to realize that they're fragmenting their own markets and are working on putting more focus on fewer devices.




Apple did that back in the late 1980s and early 1990s- while Jobs was at NEXT- and it nearly killed them.  There was a big backlash over the product lines and scheduled releases.  Too many products, and your would-be customers hold fire, waiting for the next new thing to appear.  This slows your income flow in a very noticeable way.

In fact, that lesson is one of the reasons Apple is consolidating their laptop lines a bit.


----------



## Felon

Janx said:


> Really?
> 
> People just go to the mall and hang out at the Apple store.  So they can be seen, hanging out at the Apple store?



Well, people just go to the mall and hang out, period. And the Apple store is a hip place to do it. Much hipper than the Microsoft store, if our Apple commercials are any indicator (those guys are such nerds!). Of course, an Apple store need not be in a mall. The one in New York is also crowded with the tragically hip, even at 2:00 in the morning when I once visited while on vacation last year. Maybe in the Big Apple a lotta folks have a burning desire to buy an iPod Nano in the middle of the night?

By the way, although you rarely see them in media, there are some rather belligerent gentlmen topside guarding the glass building. Do not make plans to ever have your photo taken next to this particular landmark.


----------



## Fast Learner

Banshee16 said:


> Your statement regarding advantages can be correct *from your viewpoint* and *according to your needs*.
> 
> From my perspective, there are few iPad apps that I *need* that don't have a counterpart on Android....either an Android version of the exact same thing, or a competitor with similar feature set.  What I miss out on are things that *to me* are fluff.  Doesn't mean they're not useful for someone else....just no real benefit for me.
> 
> Whereas those hardware features that you list as of trivial importance have actually been very important for how I use my tablet.
> 
> It's the view that *Apple's figured out the best way to do things, and if you need something else, you're not realizing the power of your device, or you're using it wrong* that I find annoying.  And I get this all the time from Apple fans.



For what it's worth, that's certainly not my viewpoint. Android phones and tablets are certainly better for some people, even _much_ better for certain people. 

My opinion is, though, that for the vast majority of people the iPad is the best option. If ICS had come out two years ago and, as a result, app developers started building for both platforms more frequently (or Android first), _and_ Google closed the many security loopholes and runaway app issues that make task manager and anti-virus apps so popular on the platform, Android might well be the dominant tablet OS today. 

That didn't happen, though, so, again, I believe iPad is best for the vast majority of people for these reasons:

Incredible selection of apps
No need to give the slightest thought to viruses and similar intrusions
Very solid, high-quality hardware (not saying some Android tablets don't have this, just that all iPads do)
Help with any issues and, if needed, immediate repair or replacement at one of the very many Apple stores
The newest OS features are available the day they're released to the public, for at least two years after you buy
"Dumbed down" OS makes it much less likely a non-techie user will get "stuck" or screw something up 
There's no USB port, and if you want to use a memory card directly with the device (to retrieve photos, say) then you have to buy a $40 adapter dongle that is ungainly compared to something built-in, and it doesn't have an additional-battery-and-features hardware dock. If those things -- or some other OS features that Apple prevents access to -- are super important to you, then indeed the iPad might not be your best choice. I just don't think those are important for that many people, at least not in comparison to the iPad's advantages.

Lastly, to be super clear, I'm not at all saying the iPad is best for _you_, or that you or anyone is wrong or uncool or anything else for intelligently choosing a tablet that works better for them. Just that the iPad is currently best for most people.


----------



## Rhyssa

Alan Shutko said:


> One problem many companies have on the advertising front is that they simply make too many devices.  Since Apple only makes one tablet a year (in different sizes) all their ad spend can support it.  Samsung, for instance, make so many different devices their budgets are spread much more thin.  I've read that manufacturers are beginning to realize that they're fragmenting their own markets and are working on putting more focus on fewer devices.



Exactly.  If you want an iOS tablet, you have... the iPad.

If you want an Android tablet, you have - so many different manufacturers and versions and sizes (physical and hardware) and price points that it's hard to pick between them.  Sometimes having too many choices is worse than not having enough.

The arguments about the size of the app stores I honestly don't understand, mostly because I don't see the appeal in having a HUGE amount of apps on either of my Android devices.  I have the apps that came with my phone plus a few I've added, and most of the pre-installed ones I don't really use.  Same for my NOOK, but that's a more limited app store to choose from.  People say the fact that the Apple app store has X more apps available than the Android store doesn't make sense unless an app is platform specific and you want and/or need that particular app rather than one just like it.  Because let's be honest, there is a vast majority of apps which all do the same thing or are similar enough to not matter, and that's probably what makes up what's in the stores now.


----------



## Banshee16

Fast Learner said:


> For what it's worth, that's certainly not my viewpoint. Android phones and tablets are certainly better for some people, even _much_ better for certain people.
> 
> My opinion is, though, that for the vast majority of people the iPad is the best option. If ICS had come out two years ago and, as a result, app developers started building for both platforms more frequently (or Android first), _and_ Google closed the many security loopholes and runaway app issues that make task manager and anti-virus apps so popular on the platform, Android might well be the dominant tablet OS today.
> 
> That didn't happen, though, so, again, I believe iPad is best for the vast majority of people for these reasons:
> 
> Incredible selection of apps
> No need to give the slightest thought to viruses and similar intrusions
> Very solid, high-quality hardware (not saying some Android tablets don't have this, just that all iPads do)
> Help with any issues and, if needed, immediate repair or replacement at one of the very many Apple stores
> The newest OS features are available the day they're released to the public, for at least two years after you buy
> "Dumbed down" OS makes it much less likely a non-techie user will get "stuck" or screw something up
> There's no USB port, and if you want to use a memory card directly with the device (to retrieve photos, say) then you have to buy a $40 adapter dongle that is ungainly compared to something built-in, and it doesn't have an additional-battery-and-features hardware dock. If those things -- or some other OS features that Apple prevents access to -- are super important to you, then indeed the iPad might not be your best choice. I just don't think those are important for that many people, at least not in comparison to the iPad's advantages.
> 
> Lastly, to be super clear, I'm not at all saying the iPad is best for _you_, or that you or anyone is wrong or uncool or anything else for intelligently choosing a tablet that works better for them. Just that the iPad is currently best for most people.




Ok, that's fair.  I do think marketing has a big part of it....but....the iPad is still a well built device.  It's got a great app store.  And Apple has better customer support post sale.  As much as I love my ASUS, the service level isn't the same as for my iPhone.  

And for many customers, that makes a difference for their purchase decisions.

That having been said, I've read several articles pointing out Android tablets are catching up quickly.  They jumped to something like 46% of new sales....internationally, in Q4 last year.  That's a fairly significant gain.  Some analysts are projecting them to pass iOS in the next 3 years in the tablet market.  Of  course, that's predicting the future.  I don't know whether it'll come to pass.

I *can* say that the Android tablets are getting better and better.  Some manufacturers such as ASUS are really refining things quickly.  The TF101 was pretty good on its own, and the Prime is even better....and the upcoming Infinity (I wish they just fixed the back on the prime instead of launching a new model) will have everything the Prime has, 1080p resolution, and better WiFi/GPS reception.

I agree the manufacturers are hurting themselves by putting out so many models.  And as a result, getting updates is more tricky.  Given what I've seen, I don't think I'd consider an Android tablet from a company other than ASUS.  They've very actively supported this tablet since I bought it, issuing updates, fixes, and new features pretty much every month that I've had it.  And they updated the OS to ICS pretty quickly.  I personally wouldn't go Samsung as I don't trust them the same way.

I can also agree that the features I care about in my Android tablet don't appeal to everyone....just as not everything in an iOS device appeals to me.  I'll point out that things like security concerns are overblown.  You  have to keep in mind that many of those reports come from companies like Norton and McAfee who have an interest in convincing people to buy antivirus software.  At its heart,, Android is still Linux, which is traditionally a stable, pretty safe OS.  I've never run into a virus.  But I don't download porn or "get free music here!" apps on my tablet so maybe there's a connection   Of course, given how virus prone Windows is supposed to be, I've only picked them up a handful of times in almost 20 years.  And, outside of one time where I was researching a client's website that was infected, the few times I picked something up, it was because I got careless and ignored my own rules.

In any case, your post here does make sense.  And I don't disagree.  I'm thankful if you're not one of the ones insisting "you must be using it wrong".  My business partner pulls that all the time......"those features only matter to you because you're following an outdated method of computing that is no longer relevant in the modern age".  To me, a statement like that is just ignorant.

I happen to like having physical, removable memory, as I can easily move things around between devices.  I *hate* putting stuff in the cloud.  My personal theory is "don't put anything in the cloud if you don't want some guy in a data center looking through your files".  We put alot of trust on the honesty of the people hosting these cloud services.

Some other features like Bluetooth are instances where yeah, Apple has it as does Android....but because of Apple's arrangements with content owners for the iTunes store, much of what you can do with Bluetooth is locked down.  You can't stream music to a Bluetooth headset for instance.  And you can't transfer any file you want from one device to another.  You can move *some* file types, plus contacts...and that's about it.  With Android and Blackberry, I can move *anything* between devices.  It also means that my Android and Blackberry devices connect to 3rd party services like Ford Sync much better than my iPhone does.

And searchable e-mail.  I had it on my BB, and used it alot.  Losing that with my iPhone was something I was VERY unhappy about BECAUSE I used it.  When I was doing my prepurchase research, the people I listened to insisted the e-mail was just as good.  Now that I've used it for a year, I can say it is not......not if I want to use it for work, and have search, and the ability to individually delete e-mails off my server, device,, or both, etc.

For those casual users, idevices are great ideas.  I tend to be a power user, so I run into limitations very quickly, because I'm always pushing the limits of what I can do, whereas other people I know seem to not run into limitations, because they're not trying to do anything fancy.

And that's fine.   Each person has different requirements.

As to those who asked if I know people who have few apps, yes, I do.  But I tend to be an app fiend.  I had about 150 on my Transformer before the update to ICS.  I've removed a bunch, as not all have been updated to ICS yet.  On my iPhone I have a similarly high number of apps, movies, music, files etc.  On a 32 GB device I've used up about 31 GB of space.  Many people I know don't use their devices to nearly the same degree.  Similar to annecdotes posted by others here, my wife also has an iPhone 4, and she has very few apps.  In fact, probably half of the few that she DOES have are ones I put on it for her.  She just doesn't use it for that.  At the end of the day, she uses it for phone calls, to respond to e-mail, surf the web, and that's about it.  And, for those purposes, it doesn't serve as well as some other devices like her old BB, which was a more reliable phone, and easier for her to type on.  Several of my family members also have iPhones.  But the only other family member with a smartphone who actually uses it with all the apps is my brother who's an engineer.  Like me, he likes to tinker.  He got a Samsung Galaxy S II though.

I'm referring to a limited sample though.....maybe 10 people I know who have them?  I know some power users like me, who get lots of apps...but I'd still say they're outnumbered by those who barely use their phone.

 I have observed that there are many apps on Android that do very similar things as ones I have on iPhone.  If I switch phones out, I think I'll lose SOME things, which will suck...but, by and large, there are alternatives available for most of what I use.  Where I'll lose is on games, and on some iOS exclusives.....but if I assemble a list of the apps I have on iPhone, *most* have a version on Android as well.

They're interesting times we're in.  I don't know whether PCs will ultimately die, or be relegated to the dustbin for 90% of users for whom a smartphone or tablet will be sufficient.  I guess we'll see.  But when I see that in the next version of Android, the phone will carry a full version of Ubuntu, and be able to serve as your desktop computer when you plug it into a monitor and bluetooth keyboard, I just think back to my original PC Junior, and shake my head about how much things have changed 

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16

Fast Learner said:


> For what it's worth, that's certainly not my viewpoint. Android phones and tablets are certainly better for some people, even _much_ better for certain people.
> 
> My opinion is, though, that for the vast majority of people the iPad is the best option. If ICS had come out two years ago and, as a result, app developers started building for both platforms more frequently (or Android first), _and_ Google closed the many security loopholes and runaway app issues that make task manager and anti-virus apps so popular on the platform, Android might well be the dominant tablet OS today.
> 
> That didn't happen, though, so, again, I believe iPad is best for the vast majority of people for these reasons:
> 
> Incredible selection of apps
> No need to give the slightest thought to viruses and similar intrusions
> Very solid, high-quality hardware (not saying some Android tablets don't have this, just that all iPads do)
> Help with any issues and, if needed, immediate repair or replacement at one of the very many Apple stores
> The newest OS features are available the day they're released to the public, for at least two years after you buy
> "Dumbed down" OS makes it much less likely a non-techie user will get "stuck" or screw something up
> There's no USB port, and if you want to use a memory card directly with the device (to retrieve photos, say) then you have to buy a $40 adapter dongle that is ungainly compared to something built-in, and it doesn't have an additional-battery-and-features hardware dock. If those things -- or some other OS features that Apple prevents access to -- are super important to you, then indeed the iPad might not be your best choice. I just don't think those are important for that many people, at least not in comparison to the iPad's advantages.
> 
> Lastly, to be super clear, I'm not at all saying the iPad is best for _you_, or that you or anyone is wrong or uncool or anything else for intelligently choosing a tablet that works better for them. Just that the iPad is currently best for most people.




Ok, that's fair.  I do think marketing has a big part of it....but....the iPad is still a well built device.  It's got a great app store.  And Apple has better customer support post sale.  As much as I love my ASUS, the service level isn't the same as for my iPhone.  

And for many customers, that makes a difference for their purchase decisions.

That having been said, I've read several articles pointing out Android tablets are catching up quickly.  They jumped to something like 46% of new sales....internationally, in Q4 last year.  That's a fairly significant gain.  Some analysts are projecting them to pass iOS in the next 3 years in the tablet market.  Of  course, that's predicting the future.  I don't know whether it'll come to pass.

I *can* say that the Android tablets are getting better and better.  Some manufacturers such as ASUS are really refining things quickly.  The TF101 was pretty good on its own, and the Prime is even better....and the upcoming Infinity (I wish they just fixed the back on the prime instead of launching a new model) will have everything the Prime has, 1080p resolution, and better WiFi/GPS reception.

I agree the manufacturers are hurting themselves by putting out so many models.  And as a result, getting updates is more tricky.  Given what I've seen, I don't think I'd consider an Android tablet from a company other than ASUS.  They've very actively supported this tablet since I bought it, issuing updates, fixes, and new features pretty much every month that I've had it.  And they updated the OS to ICS pretty quickly.  I personally wouldn't go Samsung as I don't trust them the same way.

I can also agree that the features I care about in my Android tablet don't appeal to everyone....just as not everything in an iOS device appeals to me.  I'll point out that things like security concerns are overblown.  You  have to keep in mind that many of those reports come from companies like Norton and McAfee who have an interest in convincing people to buy antivirus software.  At its heart,, Android is still Linux, which is traditionally a stable, pretty safe OS.  I've never run into a virus.  But I don't download porn or "get free music here!" apps on my tablet so maybe there's a connection   Of course, given how virus prone Windows is supposed to be, I've only picked them up a handful of times in almost 20 years.  And, outside of one time where I was researching a client's website that was infected, the few times I picked something up, it was because I got careless and ignored my own rules.

In any case, your post here does make sense.  And I don't disagree.  I'm thankful if you're not one of the ones insisting "you must be using it wrong".  My business partner pulls that all the time......"those features only matter to you because you're following an outdated method of computing that is no longer relevant in the modern age".  To me, a statement like that is just ignorant.

I happen to like having physical, removable memory, as I can easily move things around between devices.  I *hate* putting stuff in the cloud.  My personal theory is "don't put anything in the cloud if you don't want some guy in a data center looking through your files".  We put alot of trust on the honesty of the people hosting these cloud services.

Some other features like Bluetooth are instances where yeah, Apple has it as does Android....but because of Apple's arrangements with content owners for the iTunes store, much of what you can do with Bluetooth is locked down.  You can't stream music to a Bluetooth headset for instance.  And you can't transfer any file you want from one device to another.  You can move *some* file types, plus contacts...and that's about it.  With Android and Blackberry, I can move *anything* between devices.  It also means that my Android and Blackberry devices connect to 3rd party services like Ford Sync much better than my iPhone does.

And searchable e-mail.  I had it on my BB, and used it alot.  Losing that with my iPhone was something I was VERY unhappy about BECAUSE I used it.  When I was doing my prepurchase research, the people I listened to insisted the e-mail was just as good.  Now that I've used it for a year, I can say it is not......not if I want to use it for work, and have search, and the ability to individually delete e-mails off my server, device,, or both, etc.

For those casual users, idevices are great ideas.  I tend to be a power user, so I run into limitations very quickly, because I'm always pushing the limits of what I can do, whereas other people I know seem to not run into limitations, because they're not trying to do anything fancy.

And that's fine.   Each person has different requirements.

As to those who asked if I know people who have few apps, yes, I do.  But I tend to be an app fiend.  I had about 150 on my Transformer before the update to ICS.  I've removed a bunch, as not all have been updated to ICS yet.  On my iPhone I have a similarly high number of apps, movies, music, files etc.  On a 32 GB device I've used up about 31 GB of space.  Many people I know don't use their devices to nearly the same degree.  Similar to annecdotes posted by others here, my wife also has an iPhone 4, and she has very few apps.  In fact, probably half of the few that she DOES have are ones I put on it for her.  She just doesn't use it for that.  At the end of the day, she uses it for phone calls, to respond to e-mail, surf the web, and that's about it.  And, for those purposes, it doesn't serve as well as some other devices like her old BB, which was a more reliable phone, and easier for her to type on.  Several of my family members also have iPhones.  But the only other family member with a smartphone who actually uses it with all the apps is my brother who's an engineer.  Like me, he likes to tinker.  He got a Samsung Galaxy S II though.

I'm referring to a limited sample though.....maybe 10 people I know who have them?  I know some power users like me, who get lots of apps...but I'd still say they're outnumbered by those who barely use their phone.

 I have observed that there are many apps on Android that do very similar things as ones I have on iPhone.  If I switch phones out, I think I'll lose SOME things, which will suck...but, by and large, there are alternatives available for most of what I use.  Where I'll lose is on games, and on some iOS exclusives.....but if I assemble a list of the apps I have on iPhone, *most* have a version on Android as well.

They're interesting times we're in.  I don't know whether PCs will ultimately die, or be relegated to the dustbin for 90% of users for whom a smartphone or tablet will be sufficient.  I guess we'll see.  But when I see that in the next version of Android, the phone will carry a full version of Ubuntu, and be able to serve as your desktop computer when you plug it into a monitor and bluetooth keyboard, I just think back to my original IBM PC Junior, and shake my head about how much things have changed 

Banshee


----------



## Fast Learner

Rhyssa said:


> The arguments about the size of the app stores I honestly don't understand, mostly because I don't see the appeal in having a HUGE amount of apps on either of my Android devices.  I have the apps that came with my phone plus a few I've added, and most of the pre-installed ones I don't really use.  Same for my NOOK, but that's a more limited app store to choose from.  People say the fact that the Apple app store has X more apps available than the Android store doesn't make sense unless an app is platform specific and you want and/or need that particular app rather than one just like it.  Because let's be honest, there is a vast majority of apps which all do the same thing or are similar enough to not matter, and that's probably what makes up what's in the stores now.




I'm writing a blog post about it now so I won't go into great depth here, but a larger app store helps in several ways:

*Vertical App Availability*: You touched on this; if you want an app that helps you with certain embroidery knots, for example, a larger app store is both more likely to have such an app _and_ you're more likely to find a quality app that meets your needs since there's a much greater chance there will be multiple embroidery knot apps.

*App Quality*: Sturgeon's Law appropriately notes that 90% of everything is crap, leaving 10% as non-crap, with maybe 10% of _those_ being actually good, and 10% of _those_ being truly great. 

If you want, say, a to-do app and your app store has 50,000 apps then there will be, say, 250 to-do apps, with 25 of those being non-crap, 2.25 of those being good, and only a 25% chance that one of them will be truly great. If your app store it ten times that size, 500,000 apps, then you have a ridiculous 2,500 to-do apps of which 250 are non-crap ones, 25 of those are good, and 2.5 of those are truly great. Once you filter for the kind of to-do app that suits your style, with the larger app store you might well find there's a great one for you and a really good chance there's a good one.

*App Variety*: If you like, say, puzzle games, having 100 different puzzles available to you sounds pretty great, though odds are only 3 or 4 of them will be ones you really like. With 1,000 different puzzles there's a great chance there will be a bunch of them that you enjoy, such that whenever you get tired of one you can find another fun one a few taps and 99 cents away. With a smaller store it's quite likely you'll find yourself cycling back to the ones you played before and eventually just getting bored with the device, never using it again for puzzle games.

There are disadvantages of a larger store, obviously, with findability being the biggest issue; trying to find the good 50,000 apps in the iOS app store and ignoring the 450,000 crap ones is highly challenging. Apple could do a lot more to improve that, including working harder to cull the pure crap entirely.


----------



## Alan Shutko

Banshee16 said:


> That having been said, I've read several articles pointing out Android tablets are catching up quickly.  They jumped to something like 46% of new sales....internationally, in Q4 last year.  That's a fairly significant gain.




I see this report, but I note that it talks about shipments, not sales. As we saw with the HP Touchpad and the RIM Playbook, it's really easy to shove tons of units in the retail channel without having them actually be sold.  

From my perspective, here's what Android manufacturer's need to work on to be really competitive with the iPad:


Provide software updates rapidly for several years.  The Google Update Alliance really ruined my faith in vendors since it's already been forgotten by almost every Android vendor who signed on.
Work on getting more Android apps to support tablets natively. Right now, many apps just work in "really big smartphone mode" and don't intelligently reformat for tablets. This is pretty easy to fix, and mfrs could probably just throw free tablets at a few influential developers to help ease the transition.
Work on cost by minimizing device count and working on as much economy of scale as possible.  Right now, it's very difficult to compete with the iPad on price, since Apple has extremely good deals with component vendors.  Helps to sell in insane volume, and it helps to have a huge amount of cash to lock in great prices on components early.  As long as Android mfrs are working on zillions of different form factors and spec lineups, it will be hard to get the volume deals needed to compete with Apple on price.
Differentiate! Focus on the things that the iPad does not do well.  If the review ends up "This costs as much as an iPad, and does the same stuff as an iPad, but isn't as smooth, or as intuitive, or have the same app catalog" then only people already invested in an Android ecosystem will buy your tablet.  Find ways to make your tablet do things the iPad can't.  
Work for the enterprise market.  It's crazy to say this since Apple usually raises a finger at the enterprise, but I've heard a lot of security folks in my company who are more comfortable with the mobile device management in iOS than they are in Android.  
Make fewer models, but make them more significant. The gap in time between the Transformer Prime (Dec 2011) and the Transformer Prime Infinity (April 2012) is fine for the computer commodity market, but no good for the consumer electronics market.  Why buy now when in four months you'll have something even better to look at?  Oh wait, in four months, you know something ELSE will show up!
Provide ecosystem compatibility over the long term.  Apple has done an insanely good job at this and nobody else has really tried.  I can use accessories from iPods six years ago and they work just great with the newest iPhone. The dock connector is much reviled, but it has stayed mostly consistent (with the exception of firewire charging removed from the iPhone 3g in 2008) for years. What that means is that it makes sense for speaker makers to have dock connectors. Car head units can control the iPhone.  I've actually had AirPlay support for four or five years, because the hardware I bought which was compatible with iTunes AirTunes works with the newer devices. What this means is I can gradually accumulate stuff that works together, and when I look at a new tablet or phone, I'm naturally biased to stuff that works in the same ecosystem.  Too many android devices need a new car charger, and new other accessories, and all that newness opens me up to looking at other devices.
Tell carriers to go ******** themselves.  The single best innovation that Apple did was that they told the carriers that the users come first, and that they WOULD NOT BE ALLOWED to mess with the experience.  


Whenever I hear that "Android is great, you just need Cyanogenmod" I know that it's lost a bunch of customers who really don't want to have to screw with their ROMs to have a good experience.



> And searchable e-mail.  I had it on my BB, and used it alot.  Losing that with my iPhone was something I was VERY unhappy about BECAUSE I used it.




As an inveterate Apple fanboy, I have to say I completely agree with you.


----------



## Fast Learner

Banshee16 said:


> And searchable e-mail.  I had it on my BB, and used it alot.  Losing that with my iPhone was something I was VERY unhappy about BECAUSE I used it.




I'm pretty sure I'm missing something with your setup (and Alan's), mine must be different. On mine, on any screen with a list of messages I can just pull the list down and a search box appears.

Perhaps it's related to what mail service the mail is coming from? This is a gmail account on the back (with multiple other accounts feeding into it).


----------



## Relique du Madde

Alan Shutko said:


> I see this report, but I note that it talks about shipments, not sales. As we saw with the HP Touchpad and the RIM Playbook, it's really easy to shove tons of units in the retail channel without having them actually be sold.
> 
> From my perspective, here's what Android manufacturer's need to work on to be really competitive with the iPad:
> 
> 
> Provide software updates rapidly for several years.  The Google Update Alliance really ruined my faith in vendors since it's already been forgotten by almost every Android vendor who signed on.
> Work on getting more Android apps to support tablets natively. Right now, many apps just work in "really big smartphone mode" and don't intelligently reformat for tablets. This is pretty easy to fix, and mfrs could probably just throw free tablets at a few influential developers to help ease the transition.
> Work on cost by minimizing device count and working on as much economy of scale as possible.  Right now, it's very difficult to compete with the iPad on price, since Apple has extremely good deals with component vendors.  Helps to sell in insane volume, and it helps to have a huge amount of cash to lock in great prices on components early.  As long as Android mfrs are working on zillions of different form factors and spec lineups, it will be hard to get the volume deals needed to compete with Apple on price.
> Differentiate! Focus on the things that the iPad does not do well.  If the review ends up "This costs as much as an iPad, and does the same stuff as an iPad, but isn't as smooth, or as intuitive, or have the same app catalog" then only people already invested in an Android ecosystem will buy your tablet.  Find ways to make your tablet do things the iPad can't.
> Work for the enterprise market.  It's crazy to say this since Apple usually raises a finger at the enterprise, but I've heard a lot of security folks in my company who are more comfortable with the mobile device management in iOS than they are in Android.
> Make fewer models, but make them more significant. The gap in time between the Transformer Prime (Dec 2011) and the Transformer Prime Infinity (April 2012) is fine for the computer commodity market, but no good for the consumer electronics market.  Why buy now when in four months you'll have something even better to look at?  Oh wait, in four months, you know something ELSE will show up!
> Provide ecosystem compatibility over the long term.  Apple has done an insanely good job at this and nobody else has really tried.  I can use accessories from iPods six years ago and they work just great with the newest iPhone. The dock connector is much reviled, but it has stayed mostly consistent (with the exception of firewire charging removed from the iPhone 3g in 2008) for years. What that means is that it makes sense for speaker makers to have dock connectors. Car head units can control the iPhone.  I've actually had AirPlay support for four or five years, because the hardware I bought which was compatible with iTunes AirTunes works with the newer devices. What this means is I can gradually accumulate stuff that works together, and when I look at a new tablet or phone, I'm naturally biased to stuff that works in the same ecosystem.  Too many android devices need a new car charger, and new other accessories, and all that newness opens me up to looking at other devices.
> Tell carriers to go ******** themselves.  The single best innovation that Apple did was that they told the carriers that the users come first, and that they WOULD NOT BE ALLOWED to mess with the experience.
> 
> 
> Whenever I hear that "Android is great, you just need Cyanogenmod" I know that it's lost a bunch of customers who really don't want to have to screw with their ROMs to have a good experience.
> 
> 
> 
> As an inveterate Apple fanboy, I have to say I completely agree with you.




Let me just pop in to say something.

Their are two reasons why the update alliance failed. 
1)  Device specs.  Too many devices are being made with specs that fall below (or at) the current minimum often because the manufacturers made no thought about future android requirements.  What is worse is that since Android is being made by a consortium with only one "google experience" phone/tablet being produced per version, the number of manufacturers who know the min specs of the next version is limited to one or two manufacturers until the announcement date.
2) The same reason why "Android is great but you need Cyanogenmod" because manufacturers force you to use their crappy UIs and try to keep their root access locked.  Life would be eaiser if Motoblurr, Wiztouch, and HTC Sense was a UI you could choose to install or remove..


 -Sent via Tapatalk


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## Dannyalcatraz

> Differentiate! Focus on the things that the iPad does not do well. If the review ends up "This costs as much as an iPad, and does the same stuff as an iPad, but isn't as smooth, or as intuitive, or have the same app catalog" then only people already invested in an Android ecosystem will buy your tablet. Find ways to make your tablet do things the iPad can't.




Solid Marketing 101.



> Make fewer models, but make them more significant. The gap in time between the Transformer Prime (Dec 2011) and the Transformer Prime Infinity (April 2012) is fine for the computer commodity market, but no good for the consumer electronics market. Why buy now when in four months you'll have something even better to look at? Oh wait, in four months, you know something ELSE will show up!




Solid Marketing 201.


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## Relique du Madde

Personally I can't wait for The Windows 8 Tablet.

All their marketing has to be is:

Want to play WOW while on a bus, or would you rather play "Angry Gerbils? With a windows Tablet you can do both."

They could also be sneaky and show someone navigating to iTunes. 

 -Sent via Tapatalk


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## Banshee16

Fast Learner said:


> I'm pretty sure I'm missing something with your setup (and Alan's), mine must be different. On mine, on any screen with a list of messages I can just pull the list down and a search box appears.
> 
> Perhaps it's related to what mail service the mail is coming from? This is a gmail account on the back (with multiple other accounts feeding into it).




Possibly it's related to what e-mail account you're using.  Mine's a hosted gmail account.  If I try to search, and I go to "all" and type in a keyword from an e-mail I sent last week (for instance), it won't find anything.  Occasionally it will....but it depends how long ago it was.  The further back than a week that I get, the less likely it finds anything.

If I use the Google Apps app, and go into the Gmail section, and do a search there....then I find anything back to when I started the e-mail account.

Something with Apple's search is wonky.  It's gotten better since the 5.1 update a few days ago....but it's been terrible for months.

Banshee


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## Banshee16

Relique du Madde said:


> Let me just pop in to say something.
> 
> Their are two reasons why the update alliance failed.
> 1)  Device specs.  Too many devices are being made with specs that fall below (or at) the current minimum often because the manufacturers made no thought about future android requirements.  What is worse is that since Android is being made by a consortium with only one "google experience" phone/tablet being produced per version, the number of manufacturers who know the min specs of the next version is limited to one or two manufacturers until the announcement date.
> 2) The same reason why "Android is great but you need Cyanogenmod" because manufacturers force you to use their crappy UIs and try to keep their root access locked.  Life would be eaiser if Motoblurr, Wiztouch, and HTC Sense was a UI you could choose to install or remove..
> 
> 
> -Sent via Tapatalk




Keep in mind that Google is changing how this works.  They've dictated that manufacturers must have the default themes installed.....they can install custom looks on top of the default...but they can't be *replacing* it anymore.  Thus, it reduces the incident of devices being impossible to update, and dependent upon the manufacturer.  I remember reading something about that before Christmas.

As to manufacturers not honouring the agreement, at least on the tablet side, I think they're doing a pretty good job of honouring it.  If you look at the major Honeycomb tablets launched last year, pretty much all of them are slated to be upgraded.

Now, I think the manufacturers are holding on, because there are a number of people who received ICS updates who have complained about things like rebooting in sleep mode etc....and it's only happening with devices upgraded from Honeycomb to ICS....not ones with ICS installed at the factory.  So I think that's causing delays as they're trying to figure out what's going on and fix the problem.

But ones that we know are getting updated are the Transformer Prime (done), Xoom (done), Transformer (done), A500, A100, Galaxy Note, Galaxy Tab 10.1, Thrive, Sony tablet......all the major ones are getting the upgrade.

I'm not as familiar with the phones as I've never had an Android phone.  So I can only speak for the tablets.

One of the problems, as I understand it is the very fact that there are so many phones.  So, there are crappy, cheap android phones that give the OS a bad name....and then there are powerful ones like the Galaxy S II that run circles around iPhones.  But regardless of which end of the line they're on, they're all Android phones, so the bad ones drag down the rep for the entire assortment of phones.  But a customer shouldn't expect a free phone to be as good as one that costs $250.

Banshee


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## Fast Learner

Relique du Madde said:


> Want to play WOW while on a bus, or would you rather play "Angry Gerbils? With a windows Tablet you can do both."



Only if Blizzard rewrites WOW for a touch interface and an ARM processor.

If they were going to do that, they'd surely do it for the iPad first anyway, no?


----------



## Relique du Madde

Fast Learner said:


> Only if Blizzard rewrites WOW for a touch interface and an ARM processor.
> 
> If they were going to do that, they'd surely do it for the iPad first anyway, no?




Considering that MS is aiming for Windows 8 to be "the one OS"  in terms of its ability to run on tablet, phone, and on pcs, I think it would be in Blizzard's best interest to do the Windows 8 edition first since that would be two birds with one stone so to speak since it's cheaper then making the iOs and mac OS then working on Windows 8, android, etc.


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## Fast Learner

While they'd have windows system calls in common, I'm not certain that rewriting it for ARM under Windows would be that much easier than for iOS. Depends a lot on how WOW is written, but understand that Windows 8 will run on Intel processors on laptops/desktops and ARM processors on tablets; they can't kill two birds with one stone via a single "Windows 8 version", there's no such beast.

When Win 8 tablets come out I think there are going to be a very lot of unhappy people when they discover that tons of their favorite software won't run under ARM.

(Mind you, I think it's great that MS is unifying the interface the way they are, I think the Metro UI is quite cool and a brave -- even bold -- move by Microsoft, and I think Metro makes OS X look like crap in comparison.)


----------



## Alan Shutko

The iOS mail app will search the from, to, or subject headers, or all three at once. It won't, sadly, search the body of the message. Wait...just found out that in iOS 5 it can search the body, and will search the body on server searches as well, depending on the server. (Apparently not on gmail.)

I had gotten so used to searches being futile I hadnt actually tried since iOS 5 came out.


----------



## Janx

Fast Learner said:


> While they'd have windows system calls in common, I'm not certain that rewriting it for ARM under Windows would be that much easier than for iOS. Depends a lot on how WOW is written, but understand that Windows 8 will run on Intel processors on laptops/desktops and ARM processors on tablets; they can't kill two birds with one stone via a single "Windows 8 version", there's no such beast.
> 
> When Win 8 tablets come out I think there are going to be a very lot of unhappy people when they discover that tons of their favorite software won't run under ARM.
> 
> (Mind you, I think it's great that MS is unifying the interface the way they are, I think the Metro UI is quite cool and a brave -- even bold -- move by Microsoft, and I think Metro makes OS X look like crap in comparison.)




unless something has changed since the last tech briefing I saw, not all WinTabs will be ARM.

Wow should work out of the gate on Win8.  It'll launch into Desktop mode (where all the legacy stuff runs). The touch screen will translate to a mouse (as it does on Win7 touch screen devices today).

Win8 is built on Win7, particularly Desktop mode.  Metro mode is where there's a new stack between the UI and the very bottom layer of the OS.  It is Metro mode where rewrites are needed.


----------



## Fast Learner

Janx said:


> unless something has changed since the last tech briefing I saw, not all WinTabs will be ARM.



If there will be Intel tablets, I'll be curious to see what the ratio is compared to ARM, and how popular they'll be. They will, if nothing else, suffer significantly in the battery department.



> The touch screen will translate to a mouse (as it does on Win7 touch screen devices today).



Conceptually, yes, but WOW is pretty keyboard intensive. As such, I'd think a touch rewrite would be required.



> Win8 is built on Win7, particularly Desktop mode.  Metro mode is where there's a new stack between the UI and the very bottom layer of the OS.  It is Metro mode where rewrites are needed.



I understand that, but again with the touchscreen, and it will have to be rewritten for ARM if it's to run there. I'm certain that the vast majority of the code is pretty low-level in order to get decent framerates on a variety of graphics chips.


----------



## Janx

Fast Learner said:


> If there will be Intel tablets, I'll be curious to see what the ratio is compared to ARM, and how popular they'll be. They will, if nothing else, suffer significantly in the battery department.
> 
> 
> Conceptually, yes, but WOW is pretty keyboard intensive. As such, I'd think a touch rewrite would be required.
> 
> 
> I understand that, but again with the touchscreen, and it will have to be rewritten for ARM if it's to run there. I'm certain that the vast majority of the code is pretty low-level in order to get decent framerates on a variety of graphics chips.




Originally, ARM was only going to be supported in Metro mode (thus Arm tablets only run Metro apps, no desktop mode thus no legacy apps).

The last briefing I saw in November indicated that had changed, and that ARM would also have desktop mode.

Though, a windows app working in ARM was only likely so long as that app uses MS's standard APIs and doesn' bypass anything to get to the low level stuff.  Thus, a pure .NET app is probably fine.  Something that cheats (like a game with optimized graphics code) probably not.


----------



## Fast Learner

Janx said:


> Originally, ARM was only going to be supported in Metro mode (thus Arm tablets only run Metro apps, no desktop mode thus no legacy apps).
> 
> The last briefing I saw in November indicated that had changed, and that ARM would also have desktop mode.



Same here.



> Though, a windows app working in ARM was only likely so long as that app uses MS's standard APIs and doesn' bypass anything to get to the low level stuff.  Thus, a pure .NET app is probably fine.  Something that cheats (like a game with optimized graphics code) probably not.



Agreed, which is why I suspect WOW would have to be re-engineered for ARM (and again, for working well without a keyboard), and if you're going to do that, it seems like making an iPad version would be your higher priority since it's touch, it's ARM, and there are some 90 million iPads out there already. The bulk of that same code could be used for a Win 8 ARM version, with the only major differences being the graphics chipset, and you know they're good at targeting those (since they have to support such a variety already).


----------



## Felon

Relique du Madde said:


> Personally I can't wait for The Windows 8 Tablet.
> 
> All their marketing has to be is:
> 
> Want to play WOW while on a bus, or would you rather play "Angry Gerbils? With a windows Tablet you can do both."
> 
> They could also be sneaky and show someone navigating to iTunes.
> 
> -Sent via Tapatalk





Yep. Windows 8 should be a real game-changer. Tablets will be much more of a productivity device at the workplace.


----------



## IronWolf

Felon said:


> Yep. Windows 8 should be a real game-changer. Tablets will be much more of a productivity device at the workplace.




We've had several people using their iPads at my place of employment with great success. They accomplish a good amount on them as is. We'll see what Windows 8 brings, but I am not thinking it will entice my current heavy iPad for work users to a new platform. I could be mistaken on that though.


----------



## Felon

IronWolf said:


> We've had several people using their iPads at my place of employment with great success. They accomplish a good amount on them as is. We'll see what Windows 8 brings, but I am not thinking it will entice my current heavy iPad for work users to a new platform. I could be mistaken on that though.



You can do word processing and spreadsheets on iPad. It's fine for folks who have those light, generic needs. But it's no enterprise solution. 

Now, with Windows, your world opens up, but then you run into those Windows issues. No walled garden here, so viruses and patching kill the magic. Maybe they can simply rebooting by letting you shake it like an Etcher-Sketch.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

> But it's no enterprise solution.




RW data does not back this up.  There are studies out there already showing increases in productivity directly attributable to the use of iPads _in particular._

Besides the medical field, where iPads have all kinds of eRX and eMR options, there are all kinds of productivity boosts being reported in archaeology digs, pro auto racing, some restaurants, airlines, and (of course) the music* & movie biz.

Could other tablets be used?  Sure..._eventually_.  But iPads already have the apps that are increasing productivity in these markets _right now._  And as others have pointed out, if you want to replace something that is already working, you either have to be as good but cheaper OR the same price (or pricier) and simply better.










* Example: there is a guitar pedal out there right now that incorporates an iPad or iPad2 into it that simulates nearly $60,000 worth of classic pedals & amps.  For a guy just launching his pro career or a recording studio, that is a game-changer.


----------



## IronWolf

Felon said:


> You can do word processing and spreadsheets on iPad. It's fine for folks who have those light, generic needs. But it's no enterprise solution.




Seeing as I have several engineers and marketing types and exec level types using iPads daily for various purposes it would seem they are functioning just fine in the enterprise.  Keep in mind these are not replacements for their PCs, but devices they use on their journeys through the plant and meetings.


----------



## John Crichton

Dannyalcatraz said:


> RW data does not back this up.  There are studies out there already showing increases in productivity directly attributable to the use of iPads _in particular._
> 
> Besides the medical field, where iPads have all kinds of eRX and eMR options, there are all kinds of productivity boosts being reported in archaeology digs, pro auto racing, some restaurants, airlines, and (of course) the music* & movie biz.
> 
> Could other tablets be used?  Sure..._eventually_.  But iPads already have the apps that are increasing productivity in these markets _right now._  And as others have pointed out, if you want to replace something that is already working, you either have to be as good but cheaper OR the same price (or pricier) and simply better.



Yup.

After I got settled in with mine I was absolutely shocked at the multiple uses I could put it to at work and how productive I could be.  I do agree that the email support isn't the best but it did the trick and plenty of my colleagues used it with no issues.  That said, I typically used my work's web-based email client for the majority of important communication.

The iWork Suite is more robust than it looks at first glance, to use a more common example.  I've used Keynote to make presentations.  And Pages is great for word-processing although I need to use my BT keyboard to type at my normal speed.  I also quickly discovered that other had already been using their iPads as a laptop replacement for months.  This was about a year ago.

That all said, the Apple enterprise solution to bulk app buying is laughable.


----------



## Fast Learner

John Crichton said:


> That all said, the Apple enterprise solution to bulk app buying is laughable.




Out of genuine curiosity, what's wrong with it? I've recommended it as a possible solution for one of my clients, based only on what I've read so far. What are its limitations or issues?


----------



## John Crichton

Banshee16 said:


> Right.....and marketing has nothing to do with it?



Never said it didn't.  Goes on in every industry, too.  Marketing is certainly important for getting the word out on a company's product.  And all of this is on the companies creating the machines, not the buying public which is what I was responding to as far as who is responsible for creating a competitive market.



Banshee16 said:


> I know plenty of people who've bought iPhones and/or iPads *because*.   Because they were told it's "what they have to have", and they're  "better".  What do they actually use them for?  Not much.



Some people just have money to burn and don't know what to do with it.  Certainly sounds like what's going on with these folks.  I bet they also have a bunch of other expensive things sitting around they don't use, too.



Banshee16 said:


> Apple's got 10 commercials playing every evening when I watch TV.  It's ridiculous.  Obviously that generates appetite for the products.  When I see 5 Apple commercials in an hour, at some point I just want to pitch my coffee mug at the TV.  I mean....ok, I get it.  I should want to buy it.  It's a magical product that will turn my life around, and make a better cup of java, to boot.  I got that message from the last 1000 times I saw the commercial.



To continue my point, this is in no way the consumer's fault if Apple is all they know about depending on how much they are paying attention.  Another company needs to jump in and start grabbing just as much airtime with a better product.  One has yet to come along.



Banshee16 said:


> But Apple absolutely kills it in the apps, and that, I think, is the big difference.  Android is just not there with ecosystem.  Google's making improvements....if you're living in the U.S.  For the rest of us, no, the ecosystem is not there.  My tablet absolutely doesn't have the choice in apps I'd have on an iPad.  No question.  But it's got a lot of great ones.
> 
> However.......I've never seen a commercial for my tablet in a year.  I've probably been exposed to commercials for the iPad a good 2000 times in the last year.  And for my own tablet, the only commercial I've seen is when I went to the manufacturer's website.



And this is completely on the company that makes your tablet.  No?  It certainly isn't the consumer's fault that companies aren't getting their machines airtime and publicity.



Banshee16 said:


> Many people I've talked with won't even TRY something different.  It's just "I want an iPad".  If I point out they can have one that costs less, has a longer lasting battery, a keyboard that can be attached to it, expandable memory, full control, USB ports to connect to other devices, and a higher resolution screen........they want an iPad.  It's just not rational.  Same thing with iPhone.  They go all giddy over Facetime for the first week, and then never use it again.  You ask what apps they have and....they haven't really downloaded any.  I've got an iPhone, and easily have 140 apps on it...but the people I know who speak more positively about the phone than I do barely have any.  Why is that?  Why have the phone if you're not going to use it?



And this personal experience of a massively small sample size makes you think that the millions of iPads that have been sold are handled in the same way?  I can counter your experience with one that is nearly opposite.  I've had loads of conversations with co-workers, friends and random people coming up to me when I'm out at lunch about the iPad's features, what it does and doesn't do and if it could be right for them.  And plenty of those conversations veered into other options.  My suggestion most of the time:  Go to a Best Buy/Verizon/AT&T store and play with a few tablets then go from there.

Neither one of our experiences represents a majority nor can either be taken as anything more than our experiences.  That's it.



Banshee16 said:


> It's like the Tickle me Elmo craze, but with computer equipment.



That fad came and went due to demand crushing supply.  It's pretty safe to say that tablets have passed the fad phase at this point.  



Banshee16 said:


> It's just not logical.



Sure it is.  The Elmos were in demand because every kid wanted one and every parent wanted their kid to have one and there was buzz behind it during the insane holiday shopping season.  It's wiggled and giggled and was cute.  Kids really dig that stuff.

And I get your point:  You are claiming that millions of people are blowing $500+ a pop for the privilege of having an iPad that will end up in the closet after playing with it for a few weeks. I'd say it's that assumption that isn't logical.  All you need to do is poke around the web for all the different things people are using their tablets for.  And yes, most of them are iPad users.  



Banshee16 said:


> I'm not saying that the iPad is bad.  It's not.  It's a great device.  But I AM saying that the case for it being better than its rivals, and that there is really only one viable option for tablets is incorrect.  But the public is blasted with so much Apple PR that they don't know the difference.  Having $100 Billion or whatever in the bank lets a company buy ALOT of ad time....which only reinforces the problem.  They're basically at the point where the success of the product guarantees the further success of the product.  Instead of the continued optimal quality of the product guaranteeing the success of it.  In the long run that'll hurt consumers.



First, it will only hurt consumers if it's a crummy product that doesn't give them their money's worth.  Second, other contenders (Amazon comes immediately to mind) will emerge to keep Apple honest.  It's already happened for the 7" eReader market in the form of the Kindle Fire.  It's one of the worst-kept secrets in the tech world that Amazon is already well into development of a 10" version to compete directly with the iPad.


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## John Crichton

Fast Learner said:


> Out of genuine curiosity, what's wrong with it? I've recommended it as a possible solution for one of my clients, based only on what I've read so far. What are its limitations or issues?



Don't get me wrong - It's only laughable for Apple's end!  It's terrific for consumers and businesses because there is little to no double-check to see how the apps are being distributed.  Buy bulk at a slight discount, hand out the codes and go go go.   Wanna clone 20 different iPads on one AppleID with one code and use the other 19 however ya like!?  No problem.  Lots of assumed trust going on there.

I was shocked at how little accountability they require.  I will also say that my information is about 4 months old.  Apple could have made a ton of changes in that time.


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## Fast Learner

Ah, gotcha, good to know. Laughable for developers, then, too. More so than Apple, really.


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## John Crichton

Fast Learner said:


> Ah, gotcha, good to know. Laughable for developers, then, too. More so than Apple, really.



I imagine the devs still get all the cash to produce the codes for Apple so they pay for them up front.  The vibe I got was that the program is an afterthought and will evolve at some point when it's needed.


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## Felon

Dannyalcatraz said:


> RW data does not back this up.



It does if you know what you need for a device to be of the enterprise caliber, which is not just about applications, but also centralized management and distribution. The impresion I get from you and the other responders indicate is that individuals in your organizations each use it in whatever capacity they personally figure out, and in such a fashion you call it an enterprise device. When Mozilla says that that Firefox isn't an enterprise solution, they aren't saying nobody can use it in their office. They're saying don't be surprised when it doesn't play nice with your web apps and internet security. 

At our workplace of 5,000 odd users, we can't use an iPad for most of our applications, because they're managed and are part of a custom image. Even if they're web apps, they require IE. There's stuff that requires secure access. There's icons that have to be applied to desktops. They need virtual apps streamed to them. They might even need to have their device re-imaged on the fly. The list goes on.

In short, like I said, you can use your iWork for fairly generic productivity, but the iOS is a very personal experience.



IronWolf said:


> Seeing as I have several engineers and marketing types and exec level types using iPads daily for various purposes it would seem they are functioning just fine in the enterprise.  Keep in mind these are not replacements for their PCs, but devices they use on their journeys through the plant and meetings.



Is there a way that standardization and security are enforced? Or is it that each of them uses it as they see fit?

As you say, it's not a replacement for a PC. More like something that's highly convenient to carry about, and be sync'ed with, say, Outlook. Handy, to be sure, but I'm talking about a solution that's tightly integrated with enterprise practices.


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## Fast Learner

Felon said:


> It does if you know what you need for a device to be of the enterprise caliber, which is offer up centralized management and distribution, not individuals each using it in whatever capacity they personally find a use for. At our workplace of 5,000 odd users, we can't use an iPad for vendor-supplied applications. Even if they're web apps, they require IE to function. There's stuff that requires secure access. There's icons that have to be applied to desktops. They need virtual apps streamed to them. They might even need to have their device re-imaged on the fly. Long list, really.




While it doesn't meet all of your needs (definitely no IE, your vendors may one day support it but obviously may not now), the enterprise program does provide centralized management and distribution, rules-based lockdown of most features (including keeping individuals from adding apps), a variety of secure access options, the ability to add, update, and remove apps remotely, remote wipe, and re-imaging (not sure if that can be done remotely).

Multiple good VNC clients, as well, that can solve a lot of non-native-solution problems.

Again, not saying it's exactly what you need, but it currently offers a lot more than you think.


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## Felon

Fast Learner said:


> While it doesn't meet all of your needs (definitely no IE, your vendors may one day support it but obviously may not now), the enterprise program does provide centralized management and distribution, rules-based lockdown of most features (including keeping individuals from adding apps), a variety of secure access options, the ability to add, update, and remove apps remotely, remote wipe, and re-imaging (not sure if that can be done remotely).
> 
> Multiple good VNC clients, as well, that can solve a lot of non-native-solution problems.
> 
> Again, not saying it's exactly what you need, but it currently offers a lot more than you think.



We're doing some POC's that entail the Apple Configurator. Is that what you're referring to above?


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## Dannyalcatraz

> It does if you know what you need for a device to be of the enterprise caliber, which is not just about applications, but also centralized management and distribution.




It is being used in that fashion in the medical industry.  In some aspect of the medical field, iPads/iPhones/iPod Touches are either the only or the best non-full featured computer solution for certain legally required functions- the other devices simply do not have fully feature software available yet.  

I know of restaurants that are using them for JIT inventory while simultaneously using them for menu item availability.

Do a search, and you'll find each branch of the military is finding uses for iPads and other tablets.  If the iPad were as gimped as you think, it wouldn't be under consideration at all.  Instead, at least one contractor (Harris) is a frontrunner to replace the military's purpose built control units for UAVs with their specially loaded iPads because to ease of use, easier learning curve and superior reliability.  (Durability is said to be an issue, but the iPads are so cheap in comparison that the tradeoff may be worth it.)


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## Janx

Felon said:


> It does if you know what you need for a device to be of the enterprise caliber, which is not just about applications, but also centralized management and distribution. The impresion I get from you and the other responders indicate is that individuals in your organizations each use it in whatever capacity they personally figure out, and in such a fashion you call it an enterprise device. When Mozilla says that that Firefox isn't an enterprise solution, they aren't saying nobody can use it in their office. They're saying don't be surprised when it doesn't play nice with your web apps and internet security.
> 
> At our workplace of 5,000 odd users, we can't use an iPad for most of our applications, because they're managed and are part of a custom image. Even if they're web apps, they require IE. There's stuff that requires secure access. There's icons that have to be applied to desktops. They need virtual apps streamed to them. They might even need to have their device re-imaged on the fly. The list goes on.
> 
> In short, like I said, you can use your iWork for fairly generic productivity, but the iOS is a very personal experience.
> 
> 
> Is there a way that standardization and security are enforced? Or is it that each of them uses it as they see fit?
> 
> As you say, it's not a replacement for a PC. More like something that's highly convenient to carry about, and be sync'ed with, say, Outlook. Handy, to be sure, but I'm talking about a solution that's tightly integrated with enterprise practices.




I see what you're saying about Enterprise Practices, though that definition varies from company to company.

Its really a matter of how far IT exercises control over the end users desktops. In some companies, that is very rigidly controlled, and thus I can see why such a company would want to exercise the same control over mobile devices.

In other comanies, IT standards might cover a password strength policy and a standard issue anti-virus and a deployment mechanism for the standard Office apps.

After that, each employee's job function might vary so much that rigid control interferes with departmental productivity.

In other highly saavy tech companies (like the one I used to work for located in Northwest Houston), IT might have control of the peon computers of generic office workers.  But those were the minority.  It's hard to enforce a standard when 80% of the employees know how to build their own machine, bypass corporate NT group policies and install all the software they need off the corporate file shares.

Ironically enough, Enterprise Practices really spells "Walled Garden" that I see bandied about as an invective against the Apple model.

As to enabling IT control of iPads and other such devices, that too is ironic.  The PC changed the game by removing control from IT and their centralized computing MainFrames and enabling users to do stuff on their own.

IT has since tricked users into giving up that power by invoking Enterprise Practices, Cloud Computing, Citrix and Terminal server models, etc.

So users now bring in their own iPads and tablets.  Because they let users find their own tools to solve the business problems they want.

Bear in mind, user control of their own personal machine was seldom about having the ability to write your own program or modify secret settings under /etc/somefile.conf in a cryptic format.  The most transformative application when the PC came out was the spreadsheet.  Giving the end user the ability to run his own reports and what-if scenarioes without needing a new custom report job, waiting in the job queue, having an IT chargeback.

The solution for businesses lies within installing and securing their CUSTOM apps or access points to corporate resources, rather than taking full control of the device itself.  Not that there isn't a use for that as well, I find buying a bunch of employees a $500 iPad and then locking it down so it only runs 2 pre-installed apps is kind of a waste of money and a bit of an insult to your employees intelligence beyond the grunt labor force who aren't intelligent enough to use the iPad beyond the Corporate Job Function app that it came pre-installed with and you trained them for a week on.


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## Fast Learner

Felon said:


> We're doing some POC's that entail the Apple Configurator. Is that what you're referring to above?




No, that's just a local device configuration tool. The iPad in Business: Mobile Device Management in iOS page provides an overview, and the associated PDF provides more details. A variety of third-party MDM servers provide additional services and specific enterprise integration; many of them supply MDM services for Android, BlackBerry, and Windows Mobile at the same time.

Edited to add a few of the servers: Sybase Afaria, MobileIron, AirWatch, and Zenprise MobileManager.


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## Felon

Janx said:


> Ironically enough, Enterprise Practices really spells "Walled Garden" that I see bandied about as an invective against the Apple model.
> 
> As to enabling IT control of iPads and other such devices, that too is ironic.  The PC changed the game by removing control from IT and their centralized computing MainFrames and enabling users to do stuff on their own.
> 
> IT has since tricked users into giving up that power by invoking Enterprise Practices, Cloud Computing, Citrix and Terminal server models, etc.



In a very real sense, yes indeed. When virtual desktop infrastructure takes root, we'll essentially be back to the days of dummy terminals. 

OTOH, in the "walled garden" analogy, it's kind of implicit that the provider is dictating the lion's share of the experience for the user without their input (and sometimes, in direct opposition to it). An IT division should be responsive to the needs of management, doing them the service of providing the customized experience. Of course, if you're not in a position where your inpute has any weight, it can seem like six or half-dozen.


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## Felon

Fast Learner said:


> No, that's just a local device configuration tool. The iPad in Business: Mobile Device Management in iOS page provides an overview, and the associated PDF provides more details. A variety of third-party MDM servers provide additional services and specific enterprise integration; many of them supply MDM services for Android, BlackBerry, and Windows Mobile at the same time.
> 
> Edited to add a few of the servers: Sybase Afaria, MobileIron, AirWatch, and Zenprise MobileManager.



Hrrmm. Whole long post I had crapped out. Fan-tastic.

Anyhoo, it's cool that you got this stuff down pat. This is where we're at now with Apple's reps who are trying to strike up a partnership. We're a System Center shop, and that's a tough act to measure up to. We got hooks into Active Directory, DNS, DHCP, WSUS, SCOM, and tons more, so we have pretty insane options as far as managing the environment using queries based on user data, applications, hardware specs, or network info. We're not interested in working with static access control lists. And with what we get from just an MS volume license, we're pretty skeptical of letting a third party insinuate themselves to have something that ultimately still wouldn't mirror the amount of control we're used to. Of course, that's all aside from the issue of vendor apps not being supported for any OS but Windows.


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## Fast Learner

Felon said:


> Hrrmm. Whole long post I had crapped out. Fan-tastic.



Hate that, bummer.



> Anyhoo, it's cool that you got this stuff down pat. This is where we're at now with Apple's reps who are trying to strike up a partnership. We're a System Center shop, and that's a tough act to measure up to. We got hooks into Active Directory, DNS, DHCP, WSUS, SCOM, and tons more, so we have pretty insane options as far as managing the environment using queries based on user data, applications, hardware specs, or network info. We're not interested in working with static access control lists. And with what we get from just an MS volume license, we're pretty skeptical of letting a third party insinuate themselves to have something that ultimately still wouldn't mirror the amount of control we're used to. Of course, that's all aside from the issue of vendor apps not being supported for any OS but Windows.



Yeah, it sounds like it would be a pretty big deal to integrate with what you have, and not necessarily worth it. I was more just letting you know that there is quite a lot of enterprise adoption of late, and it's not necessarily individuals controlling their own devices (and all the issues that come with that).

Windows tablets should do really well for you, and likely for any company that's very heavy MS and is waiting for Win 8.


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## IronWolf

Felon said:
			
		

> It does if you know what you need for a device to be of the enterprise caliber, which is not just about applications, but also centralized management and distribution




Ah - you mean from the centralized management perspective. While part of the puzzle for a lot of companies devices are not judged solely on centralized management and distribution systems. For other companies it will be a larger factor and may be what rules an iPad out, but for others we will see increased productivity that weighs in heavier in the pro column than the con of not having a centralized management system for the devices.

This is one of the things I enjoy about working at a smaller, progressive company. We get to focus on what makes our workforce more productive. It is all a measure of balance, too loose and you do start to run into problems due to lax management policies. But finding that right line brings a nice mix to the table.

So yes, I will likely admit that centralized management and distribution is lacking (though I have not looked hard), but that this does not in and of itself rule iPads out of the enterprise in very productive fashions.


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## Fast Learner

IronWolf said:


> So yes, I will likely admit that centralized management and distribution is lacking (though I have not looked hard), but that this does not in and of itself rule iPads out of the enterprise in very productive fashions.



Did you skip my posts on centralized management and distribution?


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## IronWolf

Fast Learner said:


> Did you skip my posts on centralized management and distribution?




Heh. Sorry, yeah - it appears I did. I blame posting before I had coffee!


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## Janx

Felon said:


> OTOH, in the "walled garden" analogy, it's kind of implicit that the provider is dictating the lion's share of the experience for the user without their input (and sometimes, in direct opposition to it).




Here's the thing, most users want the freedom to install and run apps they want to run and surf the web where they want to surf.  iThing gives them that just fine for most people.  There are more successful "there's an app for that" instances than there are "Apple won't allow that App so I can't do it" situations for most users.



Felon said:


> An IT division should be responsive to the needs of management, doing them the service of providing the customized experience. Of course, if you're not in a position where your inpute has any weight, it can seem like six or half-dozen.




What tends to happen with IT is they become autonomous from the company and exert greater control and restriction over the desktop than what even managers want, all while citing security, best practices and so on.


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## John Crichton

Okay, we've now pretty well established that the iPad is perfectly fine for business users.  Some more than others and it certainly isn't right or viable for all situations.


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## Dannyalcatraz

And really, what piece of tech IS a panacea?


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## John Crichton

Dannyalcatraz said:


> And really, what piece of tech IS a panacea?



I'd say none.  Especially now with so many options and platforms.


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## Banshee16

Slashgear and NVidia are having a contest, and giving away a few Transformer Primes.  Only available to residents of the U.S., so I can't take part, but I figured it might be worth mentioning here.

I'm not sure whether I'm allowed to post a link or not, so, for now, I'll just say to check it out over there.

Banshee


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## Banshee16

Janx said:


> What tends to happen with IT is they become autonomous from the company and exert greater control and restriction over the desktop than what even managers want, all while citing security, best practices and so on.




Which isn't always a bad thing, given they usually know more about security and best practices than managers do. 

As we're seeing with the horde of stories about hacking in recent years, it's quite evident that management of companies needs to be spending more time locking things down, not opening things up.

With recent stories, such as about Nortel, where they've found that hackers from certain nations I won't name here comprised corporate systems and had access to e-mail, and pretty much *everything* for 10 years before the company went down, one  has to wonder how much stolen information went to help competitors, and ended up costing the company contracts etc.....which would in turn lead to the company going under.

Obviously, that can't be blamed on any of the current tablets, as even the iPad had not yet been created, but one has to wonder whether easing up on safety measures is necessarily a good thing.

So, either their network security guys weren't good enough, or management prevented the network security guys from putting needed measures in place.

Banshee


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## Felon

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Are you having an issue with Boot Camp itself, or are you- like me- a tad lethargic in installing software?



Well, finally got around to this. Thought I'd pass along some warnings if you hadn't yet. 

My MacBook Pro (doesn't show a model number anywhere prominent, which is in line with the Apple way of doing things, I suppose), and it looks like once Windows is loaded, you can give up on right-clicking, because there technically isn't a button for it. There are a large number of missing drivers though, so maybe once they're loaded the touchpad will function like a Windows touchscreen (i.e. touch and hold for right-click context menus). Of course, one of the other many missing drivers is the one for the NIC, so I have to go out and find the drivers and ferry them over.

I'd recommend trying Virtual Box instead. Or maybe one of the Apple vets has a better recommendation.


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## Fast Learner

Once you have all of the drivers loaded (the Apple ones should have been installed by the BootCamp process) you should have right-click with a two-finger click.


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## Dannyalcatraz

I have some kind of PC emulation software that I picked up when I upgraded a year or so ago...but, being a tad lethargic, have not yet installed it.  Haven't needed it, really.


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## falcarrion

i just read that Apple sold 3 million new ipads over the weekend. quite amazing.


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## Relique du Madde

I wonder how upgraded from ipad 1, how many upgraded from iPad 2 and what number never had an iPad before buying this one.

 -Sent via Tapatalk


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## Janx

Relique du Madde said:


> I wonder how upgraded from ipad 1, how many upgraded from iPad 2 and what number never had an iPad before buying this one.
> 
> -Sent via Tapatalk




an article I read a couple days ago included an informal survey from the 100+ people in line to buy the iPad3.

Note: in any percentages I list, only the front digit is most trustworthy from my memory.

Only 17% or so were iPad 2 owners looking to upgrade.  46% were first time buyers, the rest were upgrading from iPad 1 machines.

I forget the exact numbers, but I do remember the "gotta have the newest" people being limited to a minority, and the article pointed that out.  And it was a majority of people who were 1st time buyers in the line.


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## Felon

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I have some kind of PC emulation software that I picked up when I upgraded a year or so ago...but, being a tad lethargic, have not yet installed it.  Haven't needed it, really.



Similar to what Learner said, Bootcamp loaded a bunch of executables on a thumb drive along with a Windows installer. So far so good.


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## falcarrion

It seems that this thread had a birthday a few days ago.
I guess I'll celibrate with a tablet cake.


----------

