# Heavy Artillery: Psion vs. Wizard



## Mouseferatu (Sep 7, 2004)

D&D has always maintained that the sorcerer/wizard is (among other things) the heavy artillery of the group. _Fireball_, _lightning bolt_, etc. are staples of the game, something that nobody else can do as well.

At least, until now.

I love the Expanded Psionics Handbook. It's far and away the best version of psionics to date. But I'm afraid that it may be _too_ good. I like allowing psionics, but I really prefer that the sorcerer/wizard remain the heavy artillery--and I just don't think that's possible anymore.

Compare the various energy powers (_energy ball, energy bolt_, etc.) to the offensive spells available to the wizard.

A psion (particularly a kineticist) can choose his energy type on a spur of the moment, allowing him to take advantages of weaknesses and exploit vulnerabilities. The wizard must know in advance to prepare for such, and the sorcerer's out of luck if he hasn't learned multiple spells.

The psion can choose which type of save to require (Fort or Ref), allowing him to take advantage of vulnerabilities. The wiz/sor cannot.

The psionicist can choose multiple options that do extra damage (+1 per die) or raise the save DC or ignore hardness. The wiz/sor cannot.

The psion need only take one or two offensive powers, because they're so easily customizable, and can focus all his other powers on utility and defense. To match that, the wiz/sor must learn _many_ more spells.

The psion can blanket a field in offensive spells, pumped to his max damage. The wiz/sor only has a few spells of any given level.

It's true that if a psion blows his entire PP reserve like that, he's helpless later, whereas the wiz/sor will still have lower-level spells. But honestly, how often have you folks seen a psion or wizard run completely out of spells. It does happen, but not often.

Bottom line? Assuming both have the "standard" array of offensive powers, a kineticist psion can deal far more damage, with fewer spells, and with many more options, than a wizard or sorcerer of the same level. I'm not arguing that this makes the psion a better character, but it does seem to make him a better artillery platform. And honestly, that just doesn't entirely sit right with me.

So, am I missing something? Is there a balancing factor I'm just not considering? Or is it simply the case that the kineticist can, indeed, dish out more than the sorcerer? (And if so, am I the only one bothered by that? )


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## Darklone (Sep 7, 2004)

Thanee???? Where's your applause ?

I agree. Others may not.


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## Thanee (Sep 7, 2004)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> So, am I missing something?



 Nope, I'm afraid not. It's the designers of the XPH, that have missed something, or rather quite a few things... 



> Is there a balancing factor I'm just not considering?



 If there is one, I havn't seen it yet. The disadvantages of psionics are very few and mostly minor. Focus is one thing (but compensated by better metapsionics and power focus/penetration), also mostly compensated by Psionic Meditation. No scaling (in most cases), but that is compensated by the lack of caps and augmentation, the cost of the latter is compensated by the flexibility (no fixed levels for slots just PP). Being able to blow out huge amounts of PP and thereby outperforming any other class is, contrary to popular belief, _not_ a disadvantage, you are not forced to do so. 

 There are two things worth mentioning, that is, psionics are worse as party buffs and there are a lot more spells to choose from, when learning new ones, compared to powers. However, learning a single power for a psion is like learning two to half a dozen spells for a wizard. Effectively, a 20th level psion will have about as many "spells" available as a 20th level wizard who spent _a lot of resources_ on those spells! 

 All in all, there is no real contest.

 Bye
 Thanee


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## Thanee (Sep 7, 2004)

I hope that with 4th edition, they will finally build magic and psionics with the same guidelines in mind and at the same time, that should make up for a lot of problems. And please, add some people with indepth knowledge of the current rules to the designer team. 

 Also even more distinction between magic and psionics would be nice. Most psionic powers are still just ripoffs of existing spells (often, as it is blatantly obvious with the Energy line, just improvements - well, it's newer, so it has to be better, I guess, or noone would buy it  (which is certainly not true, however)).

 The general idea behind psionics is good for sure (the augmentation system, if you see beyond its flaws, is a good idea, for example) and it is a lot better compared to the abysmal 3.0 version, but the execution was just sloppy and not very well thought through as a whole.

 Bye
 Thanee


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## Psion (Sep 7, 2004)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> It's true that if a psion blows his entire PP reserve like that, he's helpless later, whereas the wiz/sor will still have lower-level spells. But honestly, how often have you folks seen a psion or wizard run completely out of spells. It does happen, but not often.
> 
> Bottom line? Assuming both have the "standard" array of offensive powers, a kineticist psion can deal far more damage, with fewer spells, and with many more options, than a wizard or sorcerer of the same level. I'm not arguing that this makes the psion a better character, but it does seem to make him a better artillery platform. And honestly, that just doesn't entirely sit right with me.
> 
> So, am I missing something? Is there a balancing factor I'm just not considering? Or is it simply the case that the kineticist can, indeed, dish out more than the sorcerer? (And if so, am I the only one bothered by that? )




The fact that a psion has to pay per damage dice cannot be ignored. If you have a 2nd level energy power and want to do 7 dice with it... yeah, you can do it. But you are paying the equivalent cost of a 4th level power.

Everything else you site is mere compensation for this fact.


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## Chroma (Sep 7, 2004)

In my campaign, and with the full agreement of the player who runs a kineticist, psions with energy powers must choose an energy affinity that they focus in, one that they are prohibited frorm using and two that cost two extra PP to manifest with.  There have been no complaints about it and it seems to work fine.


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## Thanee (Sep 7, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> Everything else you site is mere compensation for this fact.



 If so, it is the compensation for the compensation, so to say.

 The augmentation cost is already the compensation for the flexibility that comes with the power point system. If with only 3 PP (the cost of a unaugmented 2nd level power) a 10th level psion could do the same as a 10th level sorcerer/wizard with a 2nd level spell, that would be quite silly considering how many of those a psion could manifest per day. Many, many more than any sorcerer/wizard.

  This is _exactly_ the reason for the augmentation cost (and the reason why there was no scaling in the 3.0 version also (tho the ability to augment came only later with the Malhavoc supplements)).

  So why would you need to compensate for this cost twice or thrice? Is once not enough?

  Bye
  Thanee


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## Psion (Sep 7, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> So why would you need to compensate for this cost twice or thrice? Is once not enough?




In a word, no. You suppose that each such compensation is a one-to-one exchange in power, when in fact the free scaling of arcane casters is a significant boon in terms of endurance, and the supposed advantage of the psion's flexibilty with blast powers is not near the boon that you suppose.

Wizards and sorcerers have magic missile. It's a throw-away low level power that ALSO does not care what energy resistance it target has, and has the additional benefit of affecting an incorporeal target normally, AND has the additional benefit of not allowing a saving throw. And it scales with level. A 9th level sorcerer or wizard will be doing 5d4 per shot with these babies for the effective cost that a psion is paying for a 1st level power. If a psion wants to add 4 dice to a power, it would be costing them the equivalent of a third level power each. So in this one spell, arcane casters HAVE flexibility in terms of what they can affect with their powers, in addition to being able to use low level throw away slots to power it and leave room for the big guns at higher level.

So you claim that somehow this compensation is excessive, yet you fail to consider that arcane casters have a few tricks of their own up their sleeve that, in such light, make the supposed advantage of psions not so great a boon as you make it out to be.


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## green slime (Sep 7, 2004)

*Magic Missile comparison?*

While I agree that in comparison with _Magic Missile_, the powers available to the Psion pale, I believe that is mostly because in comparison to most other spells of second level and less, also pale. 

While there may be spells available that solve similar problems that may be applied (_Acid Arrow_, _Flaming Sphere_, or _Scorching Ray_) each comes with their own drawbacks and hinderances, and could therefore be also shown to be "weaker" choices than the _magic missile_. So comparing the psion's powers to MM seems flawed. 

IMO, a 2nd level unaugmented power should be weaker than a 2nd level spell cast by a similar level arcane spellcaster. I also feel that when augmented as far as manifester level will allow, it should be roughly equivalent to the spell cast by the arcane spell user. This in order to compensate for the psion's vastly increased flexibility over both wizards and sorcerors.


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## Thanee (Sep 7, 2004)

*sigh*

  When will people realize, that you simply cannot compare magic and psionics this way.

  Magic Missile is a good spell, sure. One of the most potent 1st level spell even. At 9th level it is at the height of its potency. But how do things look at, say, 15th level? Is Magic Missile still so godly then? No, it's no more than a minor nuisance. Might be good in some specific circumstances, but in 95% of the cases, it's simply not very useful anymore. That is the power of scaling. It is limited. It has caps. It is great up to some point, but after that it falls down quickly. Powers do not have these limits. The low level slots will - at some point - never be highly useful anymore, and their usefulness will degrade more and more as the level advances (there are very, very few exceptions to this, like Divine Favor). Still nice and not something to throw away, but their real power is gone by then. Still the spellcaster is stuck with them and cannot use them in any other way. Unlike the psion, who can freely use the power points for higher level powers. That is the flexibility of psionics. And this is why psionics have a higher cost for a compareable effect.

  One thing is very important when making such comparisons:

  A _fully scaled_ 1st level spell *is not* the equivalent of an _unaugmented_ 1st level power.

  Repeat.

  A _fully scaled_ 1st level spell *is not* the equivalent of an _unaugmented_ 1st level power.

  It is the equivalent of an augmented power of the same/similar (+/- 1) spell/power level and augmented to the corresponding manifester level (equal to the caster level). And yes, it _does_ have a higher cost, and this cost is to compensate for the fact, that you can freely distribute your whole power reserve as you wish over the course of the day.

  Scaling and augmentation are the two underlying systems. Both are different.

   Scaling has slot limits and caps, but scales for free, making lower level slots useful to a degree.
  Augmentation has a higher cost, since it does not scale for free, but a lot more flexibility in application and no caps.

  At this point, things are about equal. Both systems have their inherent advantages and weaknesses and for each there are situation where one is better or the other.

  However, this would require that spells and powers are interchangeable power-wise. That you can simply pick any power (or spell) of any level, remove augmentation, add scaling and put it into the other system and it should then work out fine. This is simply not the case. The Energy line especially is an extreme example of how some powers completely break out of the boundaries. Powers like Energy Missile are ridiculously overpowered. How can this power compare to any 2nd level evocation spell, please? Even Scorching Ray, a highly potent spell for sure, is almost a joke in comparison.

  Also, this would require, that the classes are about equal, which is certainly not the case, unless you compare the psion with the wizard (bonus feats, spell/power level progression), which obviously doesn't work, since the wizard does not have spontaneous casting (which is more than just a minor advantage), which the psion gets on top of everything else, if you compare this class to the wizard. The sorcerer? One has to be completely unreasonable to not see the huge discrepancy between psion and sorcerer (and the sorcerer, while the class lacks something, certainly is not _that_ bad ).

  Sorry, but for all the love for the flavor of the psionics, which I can actually see how someone would like it, this simply isn't equal, not even close.

  Bye
  Thanee


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## Plane Sailing (Sep 7, 2004)

The only problem that I have with the psion is the extreme flexibility of being able to choose energy type at casting time. I like the way that there is a consistent difference between the different energy types and look forward to the day when that carries across to arcane magic.

The genie is out of the bottle in my current campaign, as the psion is already using the energy powers (hence my disquiet at them in practice). In the future I'd say that the energy type must be chosen at the point that the power is learnt, and that it is for simple consistency that all energy types are joined together in one entry.

Cheers


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## Scion (Sep 7, 2004)

With the nigh on unuseability of most damaging spells at higher levels then the psionic version is desperately needed for it to be a very viable concept later on in the game.

Also, you cannot, I repeat, _cannot_ compare an augmented 1st level power to a 1st level spell. They are completely seperate creatures. It is like comparing a magic missile to a quickened, empowered, maximised magic missile.. oh no! magic missile is broken when compared to magic missile!


In any event. Damage dealing spells are mostly a joke, especially at higher levels when everyone and their brother has resistance/immunity, SR, and who knows what else. At lower levels the spellslinger can get by for the most part, but even around level 8 or so the magic is gone (so to speak).

So far we have had no trouble in my game with psionics. The augmentation works nicely and there is a bit of give and take here and there between the two systems.


Psions better artillery? sometimes, usually even, but is that a bad thing considering how bad spell artillary is after a certain point? not that I can see.

I'd rather there be more options rather than having to limit oneself to buffing and/or save or dies as the only useful tactics.


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## Patlin (Sep 7, 2004)

Just the facts, for your consumption:

Sorceror Spells Per Day, level 10
6	6	6	6	5	3
Power Point Equivalent, ignoring cantrips: 116

Sorceror Spells Known, level 10
9	5	4	3	2	1
Total, Ignoring Cantrips: 15

Psion Power Points, Level 10
88

Psion Powers Known, Level 10
21

Expected Damage Per Spell/pp
1/1     5d4+5 (magic missile) / d6 (Crystal Shard)
2/3     8d6 (Scorching Ray / 3d6 (Crystal Shard)
3/5     10d6 (Fireball) / 5d6+5 (Energy Burst)
4/7     10d6 (Cone of Cold) / 7d6+7 (Energy Ball)
5/9     10d6 (Cone of Cold or Fireball or * 1.5 for empowered fireball) / 9d6+9 (Energy Ball or 7d6+7*1.5 empowered energy ball)


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## Spatula (Sep 7, 2004)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> It's true that if a psion blows his entire PP reserve like that, he's helpless later, whereas the wiz/sor will still have lower-level spells. But honestly, how often have you folks seen a psion or wizard run completely out of spells. It does happen, but not often.



The psions run out of PP all the time in my game. 

Psions are better artillery than either the wizard or the sorcerer, which is a shame.  It's also a big disconnect from the flavor of psionics in previous editions.  If I could do it all over again, I would ban all the energy powers, and move some of the better TK powers into the kineticist list to fill the holes that would cause.

One problem is that some of the powers are in need of errata (and didn't get it), such as _energy missile_ and _energy stun_.  The BIG problem is the flexibility.  Protecting yourself from an energy-wielding psion is far too difficult, as you need to be resistant to four different energy types.  If you've got evasion, the psion can switch to cold damage.  I suppose your best bet is to be a rogue or monk with cold resistance.

If you're going to allow the energy powers, I would definitely recommend forcing psions to choose a single type of energy, with a feat to unlock additional types (one feat per type).


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## Sorren (Sep 7, 2004)

I'm up to 5th level with my elan psion (kineticist). Here is what I've noticed:

Kineticists can deal more damage than a Sorcerer. However, the problem isn't the Kineticist, it's the Sorcerer. If you took the sorcerer, and gave him the advantages of specializing in Evocation, they'd be about the same IMHO.

Comparing Wizards and Psions is comparing apples and oranges but I feel they are about equal based on nothing more than how fun they are to play. If my psion died today, I'd replace him with a wizard. I wouldn't even consider a sorcerer.

Another thing I noticed is that, if I know I can rest after a battle, I'm going to dominate the battlefield. There has to be a reason I can't stop and rest if you want me to reserve power points. Energy Missle is awesome. It functions much like a low level fireball and has additional flexibility that is great. Mindthrust is very much all or nothing and in an undead heavy campaign, gets very little use. But when it hits, it hits hard.

I miss cantrips, but this is balanced by the fact that 1st level powers can be used very often at higher levels. My psion has a spear and a light crossbow. At 5th level, I have never used my spear in combat. I used my crossbow ONCE, and it was to deliver a coup-de-grace to a helpless hellhound.

I'd much rather burn a power point and smack them with a 1d10 mindthrust.

One problem I've noticed is that, despite many powers that can augment, there are some that don't and they loose their effectivness at higher levels. I plan to get Psychic Reformation ASAP. Even some that can be augmented really aren't worth it at high levels.

It's nice that sorcerers can swap out their spells for free, without the use of another spell. In my opinion, they need all the help they can get.


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## Gaiden (Sep 7, 2004)

A player has a kineticist in a RttToEE game I play in and we have noted just how much better the 3.5 version is than the 3.0.  However, we still abhor psionicists by comparison to mages.  If not for the story element, we would of just trashed psions all together in favor of wizards.  The psion runs out of power points the first battle of every day and is worthless for the rest of the time.  The reason for this is that he has to spend the pp's equivalent to the highest power for even lower level ones to augment them to the point that low level spells (3rd and 4th) would normally scale.  I am surprised people think psions are all that.  I'd take an artillery sorcerer with energy substitution over a psion any day.


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## Someone (Sep 7, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> A _fully scaled_ 1st level spell *is not* the equivalent of an _unaugmented_ 1st level power.
> 
> Repeat.
> 
> A _fully scaled_ 1st level spell *is not* the equivalent of an _unaugmented_ 1st level power.




Actually, Thanee, yes, you can compare them since both, (wizard/sorcerer) and psion are spending the same resources in them. In terms of cost/benefit, spells win hands down. In terms of absolute power, powers have a big advantage. 

To answer the OP, I can offer my bit of playtesting. I used a 8th kineticist (a CR 9 creature) against my party of 4 12th level characters.

He manifested a couple of preparatory powers (Vigor and Inertial armor) and before the batte started, he used Ectoplasmic Wall a couple times. In the battle, he manifested Dispel psionics twice, Energy Ball (empowered) and Energy Ray. He ended _very_ low on power points

Compared with an hipotetical sorcerer of that level, he was much more versatile -a lot more powers know, but I remember that I had to take Expanded Knowledge to take one power needed to the bad guy´s strategy. Psion wins, since he has bonus feats; even "needing" to take expanded knowledge.

He knew beforehand the party´s strenghts, so he decided to use Electricity on the energy powers, instead of fire or cold (they have a lot of fire resistance, and the paladin/templar and fighter/cleric have stupidly high Fort saves and Mettle) Psion wins big time.

He had Overchannel, so he could manifest an Empowered energy ball, doing big damage. Really, Overchannel is a very powerful feat. Psion wins, but spending a lot of resources (the equivalent of a 5 1/2 spell) A sorcerer would have done "only" 8d6 of damage, but spending a 3rd level slot. 

But he had not Psionic Meditation. Later, he shot an energy ray at the paladin, but he spent earlier the focus. A sorcerer would have been able to a) shoot a regular Scorching Ray, doing the same damage but spending only a 2nd level slot, or shoot an Empowered Scorching ray. Even if he had psionic meditation, his Concentration skill was +13 or so; failing DC 20 is a real possibility. Sorcerer wins.

He didn´t fight alone. A sorcerer would have likely used a defensive spell, like Displacement, on his buddies. The psion only had Vigor, and even if he had taken Greater concealing amorpha, those are only personal powers. Sorcerer wins. 

He ended VERY low on PPs, in only one encounter. A sorcerer would have spent only a fraction of his resources. Sorcerer wins.

That´s what I can remember now. Apparently, they win the same number of times, but the Psion "wins" are arguably better.


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## Psion (Sep 7, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> *sigh*
> 
> When will people realize, that you simply cannot compare magic and psionics this way.




You say that, but it is just these sorts of comparisons that you all are basing claims of over-powered-ness on.

So I play on the same field that you are playing on and all of a sudden it's not a valid comparison? Interesting   



> Magic Missile is a good spell, sure. One of the most potent 1st level spell even. At 9th level it is at the height of its potency. But how do things look at, say, 15th level?




It still gets regularly used IME. In 3e, spell penetration is based on caster level, not spell level, and it still remains competitive in an environment where you see an increasing number of creatures with elemental resistances.




> One thing is very important when making such comparisons:
> 
> A _fully scaled_ 1st level spell *is not* the equivalent of an _unaugmented_ 1st level power.




Just who do you think wasn't getting this? It was my entire point!

Spells... SCALE. For free.

Powers... DON'T.



> Scaling has slot limits and caps, but scales for free, making lower level slots useful to a degree.
> Augmentation has a higher cost, since it does not scale for free, but a lot more flexibility in application and no caps.
> 
> At this point, things are about equal.




I disagree. And so long as magic missile continues to exist, I will continue to disagree, because it will still give arcane caster "flexible and non-exhausting attack utility" that psions otherwise lack.

Add in flexibility on the psion side of the equation, THEN things begin to look equal.


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## Thanee (Sep 7, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> You say that, but it is just these sorts of comparisons that you all are basing claims of over-powered-ness on.




Not me. Nope. I'd prefer not to be thrown into the big pot of people who claim something is broken based on single examples. I can't recall ever having made such a claim, especially when it comes to the XPH, really. 



> So I play on the same field that you are playing on and all of a sudden it's not a valid comparison? Interesting




See above.

I think I explained my viewpoint quite good in the longer post even further above. You might not agree with it, which is fine, really, but this here is simply not true.



> It still gets regularly used IME. In 3e, spell penetration is based on caster level, not spell level, and it still remains competitive in an environment where you see an increasing number of creatures with elemental resistances.




Used, yes, I didn't disagree there, but it doesn't make much of a difference. It's mostly used because it is there and you can't use it for anything else.



> Just who do you think wasn't getting this? It was my entire point!
> 
> Spells... SCALE. For free.
> Powers... DON'T.




True enough. But just a fraction of the whole.



> I disagree. And so long as magic missile continues to exist, I will continue to disagree, because it will still give arcane caster "flexible and non-exhausting attack utility" that psions otherwise lack.




Non-exhausting? I think I failed to notice that arcanists get unlimited 1st level slots these days? 

But you do know that I'm speaking of another kind of flexibility (speaking of the Magic Missile flexibility you mentioned), or not?

I hope you do not want to argue that single spells are more flexible than single powers. There might be _exceptions_, but the general case is quite clearly in favor of the powers.



> Add in flexibility on the psion side of the equation, THEN things begin to look equal.




Flexibility was included in my above (longer) post.

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Sep 7, 2004)

Someone said:
			
		

> Actually, Thanee, yes, you can compare them since both, (wizard/sorcerer) and psion are spending the same resources in them. In terms of cost/benefit, spells win hands down. In terms of absolute power, powers have a big advantage.




Well, sure, you can compare them, they just are not equivalent.

Augmentation is the psionics version of scaling. It has a cost to compensate for the fact, that psionics are more flexible and have no caps.

Bye
Thanee


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## Psion (Sep 7, 2004)

Gah! Dang server. Try this one more time...



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> Not me. Nope. I'd prefer not to be thrown into the big pot of people who claim something is broken based on single examples.




It may be a single example. But when every caster takes it, it obtains a certain pervasiveness.



> Non-exhausting? I think I failed to notice that arcanists get unlimited 1st level slots these days?




Oy. Hyperbole. 

They obviously don't (but I would hasten to point out you can use higher level slots for lower level spells). But psions don't get an unlimited number of PP's, either. The point here is that arcane casters have, at their service, a high reliability attack power for a very minimal percentage of their total magic resources; the much lauded energy attack powers, though nearing the flexibilty of magic missile, requires a much larger proportional expendiature of their total daily power/spell allotment.



> But you do know that I'm speaking of another kind of flexibility (speaking of the Magic Missile flexibility you mentioned), or not?




Oh, I do. I think that would be made clear by my first response. It's just I dismiss your analysis of the relative "value" of those various qualities as faulty. In my high level game, I've seen the blast happy sorcerer PC run through all of his spell slots. I could see an equivalent level psion depleting his powers much more quickly.



> I hope you do not want to argue that single spells are more flexible than single powers. There might be _exceptions_, but the general case is quite clearly in favor of the powers.




The case we were discussing was damaging attack powers. And my point was that the flexibility of energy powers is not quitte total compensation given the cost to scale them, especially when you consider that arcane casters get comparable compensation in some of their cheaper spells that do scale.


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## Thanee (Sep 7, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> Gah! Dang server.




Now that's one thing we can certainly agree on this evening... 



> The point here is that arcane casters have, at their service, a high reliability attack power for a very minimal percentage of their total magic resources; the much lauded energy attack powers, though nearing the flexibilty of magic missile, requires a much larger proportional expendiature of their total daily power/spell allotment.




Then maybe you should take a look at how many unaugmented Energy Missiles a Psion can launch, and how much damage these can do under good circumstances (let's say, three targets, not too unreasonable). That's 9d6+9 total for every 3 PP - with a save for half, of course. A 10th level psion can do this roughly 30 times per day, with a single power he gets for free at 5th level (bonus feat, the sorcerer does not have those).

So there's your single example, which can easily keep up with Magic Missile.



> In my high level game, I've seen the blast happy sorcerer PC run through all of his spell slots. I could see an equivalent level psion depleting his powers much more quickly.




Well, of course they can. But if they do, the impact of what they do is also higher. And as I said somewhere up there, this is an _advantage_ to be able to do this, not a _disadvantage_, since they are not forced to do it, they just _can_.

Granted, if a psion gets down to a compareable level of what the sorcerer can do, augmenting only to that point (which is not the maximum possible in most cases), the sorcerer will still have a few more spells per day, but that hardly makes up for all that stuff the psion gets in comparison (the abovementioned ability to burn through their reserve quicker, more flexibility, much more "spells" known, faster power/spell level progression, bonus feats, no verbal/somatic/material components, better caster attribute, Quicken Power, and so on).

A psion _cannot_ be able to have the same number of effective manifestations per day as a sorcerer or even a wizard. They must be behind here, because they get all sorts of other benefits, which would otherwise come for free!



> The case we were discussing was damaging attack powers. And my point was that the flexibility of energy powers is not quitte total compensation given the cost to scale them, especially when you consider that arcane casters get comparable compensation in some of their cheaper spells that do scale.




But that doesn't take some stuff into consideration. Namely, the flexibility of the PP application over the day (since I am still not entirely sure, this is the kind of flexibility I am talking about mostly), the non-existance of caps in augmentable psionics. Still, these advantages are there... always.

I didn't even touch the flexibility of the Energy powers (choice of energy, choice of save type) above, that's something, I believe, is too much. As much as I like the idea of having some decent universal rules for the various elements. The energy type should be chosen by the time the power is _learned_, not when it is _manifested_. That alone would make these powers a lot more reasonable.

Bye
Thanee


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## Mouseferatu (Sep 8, 2004)

Psion, I'm not arguing that sorcerers don't have some advantages. But it's been my experience that, once you reach mid-levels and higher, a psion can dish out more damage than a sorcerer or wizard of the same level. And he can do so with only a handful of powers, as opposed to the sorcerer who has to learn new spells to gain the higher damage potential. It takes the sorcerer three or four spells to equal both the damage potential and flexibility of a psion with just one of the "energy" powers.

Yes, the spells scale automatically and the powers don't. I'm taking that into account in my comparison. It's true that when the psion is spent, the sorcerer will still have a number of low-level spells left. But A) that only matters if the party faces an ungodly number of battles without the chance to rest, and B) doesn't compensate for the fact that the psion will have dealt _far_ more damage to that point than the caster will.

Just for instance, _energy ball_ is superior to _fireball_ in every imaginable respect. It scales up to 20; _fireball_ doesn't, and requires the caster to learn a new spell (_delayed blast fireball_) to reach the same potential. _Energy ball_ is customizable to all energy types; _fireball_ is just fire, with all the downsides that entails. _Energy ball_ grants the psion the option to target Fort or Ref saves, based on the creature's weaknesses; _fireball_ doesn't. And even using the most direct comparison--_fireball_ vs. _energy ball_ focused on fire--the psionic power wins out, because it does +1 point per die of damage.

And, due to the way the save DC scales, it actually tops out at +1 DC harder to save against than does the _fireball_.

Every one of the energy powers has the same advantages when compared to any of the standard energy-based offensive spells the caster can access. There's just no comparison, and I don't believe the presence of _magic missile_ makes up for it.


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## Scion (Sep 8, 2004)

once again, even assuming that everything above is true (which is open for debate) can you prove that it is a bad thing?

Damage dealing spells tend to suck a lot (not just a little) at higher levels. As such, it could be that what the psionics do is more like how things will work for other casters in the future, or psions will be left as the kings of versitility who still burn out the fastest if they try to keep up in sheer damage output.

So, like I said, even assuming that what was said above is true, is it the problem of the psion, or is it a problem with the damage dealing spells? My bet is that the damage dealing spells are the real problem here. (this is also backed up with play experience, but I doubt that matters to most)


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## cignus_pfaccari (Sep 8, 2004)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> So, am I missing something? Is there a balancing factor I'm just not considering? Or is it simply the case that the kineticist can, indeed, dish out more than the sorcerer? (And if so, am I the only one bothered by that? )




One thing that I don't think many have noticed yet.

Look at the level distribution of the good psion/kineticist direct damage spells.

Now look at Lesser Sphere of Invulnerability.

Note how most of them, especially the kewl ones, like Energy Missile and Energy Stun, are shut down completely.  Most of the rest are gotten by the regular version.  You also can't heighten the power, to get around that.

Granted, it's not a big thing (oh, look, a spell that's rarely cast), but it does have an effect.  It protected two people in our epic campaign from a concussive blast the other day, and if the DM and I had realized, it would have completely changed an encounter I'd had earlier in the game.

However, said encounter ended after I tossed an Overchanneled Empowered Maximized Cold Energy Missile at all four Glooms at once, doing 250-odd damage each with a Fort DC 50-odd for half.  They ran after that.  (Note: Since my Sainted Unbodied was in between all four, technically, they wouldn't have been affected by the Energy Missile...since I have a Lesser Sphere of Invulnerability naturally)

So, I can't help but think that psions are probably a bit too good at doing hideous quantities of damage.  It won't stop me from using them (the DM certainly will), and I'm not especially bothered by it, but I can see the point.

Brad


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## Shadowdweller (Sep 8, 2004)

Psions are certainly good 'mobile artillery platforms'.  The thing is, though, IMO the real strength of the arcane caster isn't really in directly dealing damage.  It lies in the scope and breadth of the spell list.

There are FAR fewer higher-level psionic powers and many of these are very similar and combat-oriented (for instance there are about a bazillion different damaging psionic powers that follow the same damage formula adding one die per extra power point) even if they can individually be augmented in a variety of ways.  In contrast, let's take something like the Wall of Stone spell...which since it can be shaped at will when cast can be used to bridge a chasm, trap an enemy inside a globe of stone, serve as a staircase upward, divide the battlefield, and many other things with a SINGLE spell.  You simply do not have things as far reaching as a psion...especially at higher levels.  And coupled with this, for the given effect Arcane spells are often amazingly efficient.  My experience, despite what one might think with the augmentation rules, is that even a sorcerer is more ultimately versatile than a psion.

Obviously, if you think that arcane casters should be the absolute masters of inflicting damage via spell or spell-like ability than you're going to be disappointed.  There's not all that much you can do about this, but I personally prefer my caster with more far-reaching abilities.


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## Thanee (Sep 8, 2004)

Scion said:
			
		

> once again, even assuming that everything above is true (which is open for debate) can you prove that it is a bad thing?



 For 4th edition, maybe not, if they will make things more equal, but for 3.5 edition it is for sure, since there is a huge discrepancy between the base classes this way, and such a discrepancy is a bad thing in a game, which is based on balance. There's really not much to prove there, if this discrepancy is taken for granted as you say (which is open for debate, of course). 

 The designers of the 3.5 core rules have gone to lengths to create a better balance between the classes as compared to the 3.0 rules, and they have at least succeeded to a degree, maybe not fully, but it certainly is much better now. There really is no need to create such a huge imbalance again.

 If you don't like the 3.5 rules that's one thing, but the XPH is meant for exactly these rules, not for 3.0, not for your houseruled 3.0/3.5 conglomerate and not for 4.0, so it has to be judged against the official 3.5 rules and only these.

 Bye
 Thanee


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## Psion (Sep 8, 2004)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Psion, I'm not arguing that sorcerers don't have some advantages. But it's been my experience that, once you reach mid-levels and higher, a psion can dish out more damage than a sorcerer or wizard of the same level.




For one fight, maybe. It's been my experience that in a tough dungeon crawl, a sorcerer going at full bore will tap out fairly quickly, but a psion will go through far more points.



> And he can do so with only a handful of powers, as opposed to the sorcerer who has to learn new spells to gain the higher damage potential. It takes the sorcerer three or four spells to equal both the damage potential and flexibility of a psion with just one of the "energy" powers.




But this totally neglects that for those more powerful powers, the psion is paying a much higher percentage of their total power. If a psion uses a 3rd level power for 10d6, they are paying a 5th level premium for it. Comparing it to a 3rd level power is no longer a fair comparison anymore.



> Yes, the spells scale automatically and the powers don't. I'm taking that into account in my comparison. It's true that when the psion is spent, the sorcerer will still have a number of low-level spells left. But A) that only matters if the party faces an ungodly number of battles without the chance to rest,




Not, it does not. Unless you consider "2 or 3" = "Ungodly".




> and B) doesn't compensate for the fact that the psion will have dealt _far_ more damage to that point than the caster will.




Far? Oy. I really beg to differ.

How long do your high level combats last?

IME, most of mine average out at about 3 rounds.

If you are counting, that is the MINIMUM amount of slots a sorcerer will have for a given level. The sorcerer in my high level game, when the going got tough, could drop 3 horrid wilting and wither away any living competition and still have room for DBF's. That's more than one fight.



> Just for instance, _energy ball_ is superior to _fireball_ in every imaginable respect. It scales up to 20; _fireball_ doesn't,




Only if you discount that fact that you are paying 9th+ level premiums to use that ability.



> and requires the caster to learn a new spell (_delayed blast fireball_) to reach the same potential.




Of course since they can forget the topped out spells (in the case of a sorcerer) or learn any amount of spells (in the case of a wizard), this is a non-detriment.



> _Energy ball_ is customizable to all energy types; _fireball_ is just fire, with all the downsides that entails. _Energy ball_ grants the psion the option to target Fort or Ref saves, based on the creature's weaknesses; _fireball_ doesn't.




And considering the premium the psion has to pay to scale that power -- a perk arcane casters get for free -- that's fair.


IME from actual play, a psion does not dominate in ways that some of you are suggesting that they would. Theoretical estimations of their dominance seem to rely on any or all of assigning too much significance to the flexibility of the energy powers, too little significance to the fact that psions pay the equivalent cost of higher level powers to scale them without gaining the full benefits of a higher level power (such as energy missile not gaining multiple targets when you scale it or any of the energy powers ever attaining the selective targeting of horrid wilting), or a rather generous challenge frequency.


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## Scion (Sep 8, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> for 3.5 edition it is for sure, since there is a huge discrepancy between the base classes this way, and such a discrepancy is a bad thing in a game, which is based on balance.




This is simply not true.

Divine casters can heal, arcane casters cannot.

Does this discrepancy destroy the game?


once again though, you did not address the point. Even if psions are better at direct damage is this a bad thing? Since direct damage at higher levels for spells is useless a good majority of the time anyway (or at least incredily lack luster.. lets see, if the bad guy fails his save then he will lose, at most, a third of his hp.. and that is if the roll is really good and he has no resistance/immunity, some sort of evasion, or any number of other things).

The improved (only slightly, lack of scaling is a pretty big hit here as well) ability to deal damage isnt exactly a problem in my opinion, it is in yours. I would like you to actually prove why it is a problem.

'Discrepancies' between how various classes do things abound, so obviously that isnt a problem.

I have seen it in play, and there has yet to be any 'huge imbalance'.


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## Thanee (Sep 8, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> Of course since they can forget the topped out spells (in the case of a sorcerer) or learn any amount of spells (in the case of a wizard), this is a non-detriment.



 Well, a sorcerer can do this once every other level, hardly enough to upgrade every spell they know (which the psion does automatically and for free, and they even can pay a few XP to swap out every single power they know!); it still takes a huge amount of planning to get a nice spell selection for a sorcerer even with the new swapping ability. Wizards can learn additional spells, but pay a high cost for it. The last wizard I made has a large selection of spells (like 20 per level), but that was like half the resources spent on the spellbook, that's a lot of gold, which could have been used on magic items instead!

 So, non-detriment is hardly correct, altho it's true, of course, that they do have some ways to get around this disadvantage to a degree.



> And considering the premium the psion has to pay to scale that power -- a perk arcane casters get for free -- that's fair.



 But, if that is their compensation for the augmentation cost, then why do they get the much better flexibility with the PP system, have no caps, can wear armor without hindering their primary ability, do not have to bother about grapples, silence and such, since all their powers have no somatic and material components, have better class skills, more effective skill points per level, gain bonus feats, gain higher power levels at one level before they should, know a lot more powers of the relevant levels and do not have to bother which one to swap out since all upgrade for free, which also almost removes the need for metafeats to keep their low-level powers useful, can quicken spells, or instead of the last few items gain the ability to spontaneously manifest powers (which is the single most powerful ability for a spellcaster/manifester (the ability to cast spells/manifest powers in the first place not included, which is, of course, the most powerful ability all in all) in all D&D) as opposed to prepare them ahead of time, and so on?

   What's the compensation for all that stuff then?

   Bye
   Thanee


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## Thanee (Sep 8, 2004)

Scion said:
			
		

> This is simply not true.



 "If all the above is true..."

 Bye
 Thanee


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## Psion (Sep 8, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Well, a sorcerer can do this once every other level, hardly enough to upgrade every spell they know




I would hope a sorcerer player would know better than to make every spell at each level one that will quickly outgrow its usefulness.



> But, if that is their compensation for the augmentation cost, then why do they get the much better flexibility with the PP system, (etc)




How many times to I have to spell this out to you. THEY PAY MORE. You keep asserting that paying out the nose for their powers is not total compensation, but have done nothing to demonstrate that.



> have better class skills, more effective skill points per level,




Um, we are talking about XPH here, which nerfs psion skill point advantages. You know that, right?



> gain bonus feats,




So do wizards. I won't dispute that sorcerers are underpowered, but that's the sorcerer being underpowered unless you can demonstrate that they are as effective as wizards.



> gain higher power levels at one level before they should,




If getting spells sooner than the arcane wizard does is a shock to you, don't take a peek at the Cleric or Druid spell list.

Those powers that the psions do get earlier are worth noting are on the specialty discipline lists. Which is nice, but a psion can normally only take advantage of one of those lists and don't get the advantages that a specialist wizards do.



> can quicken spells,




But they have to choose between that _or_ enhancing their powers, which sorcerers get for free. If they do so, they can't can't quicken and enhance them. Metapsionics is a much bigger detriment to psions than arcane caster.



> What's the compensation for all that stuff then?




1) That they don't get some of those things and
2) That they have to pay a premium for scaline their powers. (Are you just trying to get me to repeat myself? Or amplify the obvious?)


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## Scion (Sep 8, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> "If all the above is true..."




"for 3.5 edition it is for sure, since there is a huge discrepancy between the base classes this way, and such a discrepancy is a bad thing in a game, which is based on balance."


This has nothing to do with that, and is still not true.

I made mention of a huge discrepancy that is still in the game, so has it destroyed the game?

Your statement is not part of the 'if the above is true' and is it completely false in its own right besides.


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## Spatula (Sep 8, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> > and requires the caster to learn a new spell (delayed blast fireball) to reach the same potential.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course since they can forget the topped out spells (in the case of a sorcerer) or learn any amount of spells (in the case of a wizard), this is a non-detriment.



The difference is that for a sorcerer, they have to learn a new high-level spell, and can replace the now-mostly-useless lower level spell.  The psion's lower-level power is still useful and doesn't need to be replaced, giving him more freedom in choosing his higher-level powers (and the psion knows more powers than the sorcerer does spells, making the sorcerer even worse in comparison).  A minor point, in any case.



> > Energy ball is customizable to all energy types; fireball is just fire, with all the downsides that entails. Energy ball grants the psion the option to target Fort or Ref saves, based on the creature's weaknesses; fireball doesn't.
> 
> 
> 
> And considering the premium the psion has to pay to scale that power -- a perk arcane casters get for free -- that's fair.



The psion also gets a Heightening effect wrapped up with the augmentation of the energy powers, which makes up for having to pay to scale the damage.  Adding the energy type flexibility on top of that is just gravy.  _Fireball_ fades in usefullness as you advance because it's always going to have a DC of 13+stat unless the caster spends a feat and prepares the Heightened _fireball_ in advance (wizard) or uses his whole action to cast it (sorcerer).



> IME from actual play, a psion does not dominate in ways that some of you are suggesting that they would. Theoretical estimations of their dominance seem to rely on any or all of assigning too much significance to the flexibility of the energy powers, too little significance to the fact that psions pay the equivalent cost of higher level powers to scale them without gaining the full benefits of a higher level power (such as energy missile not gaining multiple targets when you scale it or any of the energy powers ever attaining the selective targeting of horrid wilting), or a rather generous challenge frequency.



_Energy missile_ already affects five targets out of the gate!  It doesn't need to be able to affect any more.  _Horrid wilting_ isn't an energy spell, in fact there aren't any area-effect energy spells that allow for selective targeting.  If you want selective targeting with psionics, you need to look to the telepathy powers (like _ultrablast_).


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## Spatula (Sep 8, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> Um, we are talking about XPH here, which nerfs psion skill point advantages. You know that, right?



? Int as manifesting stat - no shortage of skill points.  There really isn't any arguement about the psion's skill list being better than the wizard's and the sorcerer's.



> If getting spells sooner than the arcane wizard does is a shock to you, don't take a peek at the Cleric or Druid spell list.



He's talking about psions getting access to new spell levels 1 class level sooner than sorcerers (3rd level powers at 5th level psion, 9th level powers at 17th level psion, etc.).


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## Psion (Sep 8, 2004)

Spatula said:
			
		

> The difference is that for a sorcerer, they have to learn a new high-level spell, and can replace the now-mostly-useless lower level spell. The psion's lower-level power is still useful and doesn't need to be replaced, giving him more freedom in choosing his higher-level powers (and the psion knows more powers than the sorcerer does spells, making the sorcerer even worse in comparison).  A minor point, in any case.




If the psion is exclusively using lower level powers at higher levels, and buying higher level powers, again, they are going to have power management issues. The level that the psion acquired the power at isn't a big issue because they don't have exclusive slots; the limiting factor is, again, power points.

The ideal for the sorcerer, IME, is once they find a capped out spell is no longer of much use, they replace it with a good utility spell that does not have a cap (e.g., fly).



> The psion also gets a Heightening effect wrapped up with the augmentation of the energy powers, which makes up for having to pay to scale the damage.




Again, we have an arbirtrary assertion here about what the scaling "makes up for" and I renew my estimation that it does not. Even though you ratchet up the damage of the power, you do not add to its flexibility or side effects, as adding to the introductory level of a power or spell does.

"Free heightening" is not an impressive feature, as the psion may get the benefits of it in one way, they lack the "free damage heightening" that arcane casters have.



> _Energy missile_ already affects five targets out of the gate!  It doesn't need to be able to affect any more.




(checks SRD)

So it is. Nice. Got me on that one.

Well, I don't feel quite as bad about magic missile now.



> _Horrid wilting_ isn't an energy spell,




I never said it was. It is a "high level direct damage spell" that circumvents energy resistance, however. And IME, the main sorcerer damage dealer at that level, and I as such, the reason I don't buy arguments that a psion will be causing more damage per round at that level. Having seen this in action sort of drives the point home.


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## Thanee (Sep 8, 2004)

Scion said:
			
		

> Even if psions are better at direct damage is this a bad thing? I would like you to actually prove why it is a problem.




Since you cannot prove that it is not? 

Well, especially for you, here's a quote from the DMG:



> Wizards and sorcerers should not cast healing spells, but they should have the *best offensive* spells.




Bye
Thanee

P.S. "the above" is mostly about this discrepancy you handwave away as wrong (without any kind of proof or argument). Your "arcanists cannot cast healing spells" statenent is not a discrepancy, since they can do other things instead.


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## Thanee (Sep 8, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> How many times to I have to spell this out to you. THEY PAY MORE.




So they pay more to scale their low level powers to high level and get all that in return? Wow! Good deal, for sure! 



> Um, we are talking about XPH here, which nerfs psion skill point advantages. You know that, right?




In fact, yes, I do, as well as I do know about the shift to Intelligence as their prime ability, which is the reason for that "effective" up there. 



> So do wizards. I won't dispute that sorcerers are underpowered, but that's the sorcerer being underpowered unless you can demonstrate that they are as effective as wizards.




In my experience (which is quite extensive when it comes to playing arcanists of both types), hell yes!

Sorcerers are immensely effective characters!

They are somewhat "boring", since they don't really get much different stuff, tho it's ok after level 8 or 9, but their power level is more than fine once they get beyond the very first levels, yeah.

Wizards are _slightly_ ahead, but not much.



> If getting spells sooner than the arcane wizard does is a shock to you, don't take a peek at the Cleric or Druid spell list.




You know, that this means the sorcerer. I'm sure you do. 

It's one of the things you have to pay for being a spontaneous caster in the core rules. The other main ones are a huge limitation on spells known and no bonus feats. All three of those do not apply to psions (the limit on powers known somewhat, but it's a LOT less restrictive as for the sorcerer, especially if you look at the top levels, which are currently available (i.e. 3rd and 4th for an 8th level caster).



> Those powers that the psions do get earlier are worth noting are on the specialty discipline lists. Which is nice, but a psion can normally only take advantage of one of those lists and don't get the advantages that a specialist wizards do.




And spontaneous manifestation isn't really much of an advantage over the wizard?

So then, just take that away, have Psions prepare their powers ahead of time, once per day they have to say in what way exactly they are going to spent their power points. I'd say, this would make them equal to wizards then.



> But they have to choose between that _or_ enhancing their powers, which sorcerers get for free.




Up to a degree, remember the caps?

Every system has upsides and downsides as explained fairly extensively somewhere above.

But these should be roughly balanced and as it stands, I'm quite certain that the downsides of psionics do not balance the upsides.



> If they do so, they can't can't quicken and enhance them. Metapsionics is a much bigger detriment to psions than arcane caster.




Yeah, it is, but in turn, metapsionics are cheaper in terms of levels added, and in most cases completely unnecessary, anyways, since the important ones (for sorcerers/wizards) aren't even needed (like Still, Silent, Empower, Heighten, Energy Affinity).

Bye
Thanee


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## Nail (Sep 8, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> IME from actual play, a psion does not dominate in ways that some of you are suggesting that they would.



IME from actual play, they do.

Moreover, the preponderance of evidence would suggest that they will (RAW), for the "average" gaming group. As always, YMMV...and in *Psion*s case, it's quite obvious it does.

Fortunately for me, my experience is as a player watching fellow players, rather than as a DM.  As a fellow player, I have _no_ qualms watching the psionicist mop-up the opposition.  "Yay psionicist!...I get a share of that XP and loot, right?"  As a DM, you can imagine my take is substantially different.


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## Psion (Sep 8, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> So they pay more to scale their low level powers to high level and get all that in return? Wow! Good deal, for sure!




You really are being obtuse, aren't you?

They pay a cost that arcane casters don't pay and are specifically designed to act as a stop gap to their other advantages. So it is not a great deal. It is... roundabout even.



> In fact, yes, I do, as well as I do know about the shift to Intelligence as their prime ability,




Just like wizards. It seems like many of your examples rely on comparisons with the arguably underpowered sorcerer.



> Sorcerers are immensely effective characters!




I never said they weren't effective characters. I ran a campaign up to epic levels with a single class sorcerer in the party. That's why I laugh at these assertions that a sorcerer's short term damage capacity is in any way wanting.

But it's dirty pool to pick the sorcerer as the basis for calling the psion too strong when using the same comparisons, another core class, the wizard, shines in the same area.



> Wizards are _slightly_ ahead, but not much.




And psions are slightly ahead of the sorcerer too. Good for the goose, good for the gander.

(and also why I allow enhancements from Quint Sorcerer)



> You know, that this means the sorcerer. I'm sure you do.




Actually I didn't. I thought you were talking about spell/power levels, because I knew that a psion doesn't get powers any quicker than a wizard.



> It's one of the things you have to pay for being a spontaneous caster in the core rules. The other main ones are a huge limitation on spells known and no bonus feats.




Which is arguably too much.

Also forget not that one of the compensations that wizards have is the ability to learn a large variety of spells and to leave slots open to utilize any of them.



> So then, just take that away, have Psions prepare their powers ahead of time, once per day they have to say in what way exactly they are going to spent their power points. I'd say, this would make them equal to wizards then.




That would nerf them, and we would be back in the 3.0 boat.

That they are overcompensated is your presumption, not mine. Don't pretend to draw a logical conclusion to a premise that we do not agree on.



> Up to a degree, remember the caps?




Yes, I remember it, and already discussed it. As a refresher:

1) If the cap is a problem, the sorcerer can pick a new spell (the wizard merely need not memorize it). Note that I have never seen, even at epic levels, a sorcerer dispense with magic missile.
2) Having a limited amount of free lunch is a meager limitation compared to having to pay for your lunch. It's like being told you can't leave a buffet restraunt with a plate full of food. That doesn't make a buffet not a good deal.



> Every system has upsides and downsides as explained fairly extensively somewhere above.
> 
> But these should be roughly balanced and as it stands, I'm quite certain that the downsides of psionics do not balance the upsides.




And I am quite certain that they do. It seems we are at an impasse.

You want to limit psions to one energy type in your game, then by all means do. But I think that, considering how often the exact energy immunity that is your bane comes up in a game, that its impact is over estimated. Just like I feel that those who think energy substitution should take a spell level are overestimating its impact.



> Yeah, it is, but in turn, metapsionics are cheaper in terms of levels added,




Do you not understand why? It needs to be, because if you made psions pay for their damage enhancement AND full cost for metapsionics, it would make metapsionics worthless.

Further, those level costs aren't just waved off. They show up in terms of psionic focus, which sharply limits the number of such feats the psion can use in a single combat and -- for that matter -- on a single power.


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## Spatula (Sep 8, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> "Free heightening" is not an impressive feature,



Increasing the save DC of spells/powers is not an impressive feature?  Then why did WOTC nerf Spell Focus in 3.5?


> as the psion may get the benefits of it in one way, they lack the "free damage heightening" that arcane casters have.



Yes, but the psion gets something from paying for increased damage (higher DCs) that arcane casters do not with their free damage scaling.  This is in addition to the energy flexibility when using the energy powers and the additional effects of those energy types (extra damage, higher DC, Fort instead of Refl save, damaging objects/beating most resistances).


> I never said it was. It is a "high level direct damage spell" that circumvents energy resistance,



As is _ultrablast_, although _ultrablast_ isn't anywhere near as useful as _horrid wilting._  It is, however, an area-affect power that doesn't affect allies.


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## Nail (Sep 8, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> Just like I feel that those who think energy substitution should take a spell level are overestimating its impact.



Wow.......

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one, I guess.


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## Thanee (Sep 8, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> You keep asserting that paying out the nose for their powers is not total compensation, but have done nothing to demonstrate that.



 Okay, if you want some numbers, here we go...



 Psion level 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th (these are the levels at which the "important" spell levels cap, so in favor to the arcanists), assuming reasonable stats (starting at 16, all level improvements applied to them and +2/+4/+6/+6 item included, as well as a +3 inherent at 20th level, also from 15th level onwards, I'll assume each power costs 1 PP less thanks to the torque of psionic world domination ).

 5th PP total 25+10=35
 10th PP total 88+30=118
 15th PP total 195+52=247 (-1 PP per manifestation)
 20th PP total 343+100=443 (-1 PP per manifestation)

 A 5th level psion can manifest roughly 7 _fully augmented_ powers per day.
 A 10th level psion can manifest roughly 12 _fully augmented_ powers per day.
 A 15th level psion can manifest roughly 18 _fully augmented_ powers per day.
 A 20th level psion can manifest roughly 23 _fully augmented_ powers per day.

 A 5th level psion knows 11 powers, let's say 5 of those are equivalent to 3rd level powers.
 A 10th level psion knows 21 powers, let's say 10 of those are equivalent to 5th level powers.
 A 15th level psion knows 28 powers, let's say 14 of those are equivalent to 8th level powers.
 A 20th level psion knows 36 powers, let's say 18 of those are equivalent to 9th level powers.

 The reduced number (1/2) for the highest level powers comes from the fact, that not all are augmentable and a few are simply not worth it anymore. I guess this is a fair assumption.



 Now for the sorcerer spells per day and wizard spells known (0th not included).

 Note, that the sorcerer is leagues behind in spells known and the wizard somewhat lacks behind in spellcastings per day, still I pick the optimum from both classes in this comparison in each case!

 A 5th level sorcerer can cast 7/5/0! spells per day.
 A 10th level sorcerer can cast 8/8/7/6/4 spells per day.
 A 15th level sorcerer can cast 8/8/7/7/7/7/4/0! spells per day.
 A 20th level sorcerer can cast 9/9/8/8/8/8/7/7/7 spells per day.

 A 5th level wizard knows 14 spells, 2 of those are 3rd level.
 A 10th level wizard knows 24 spells, 4 of those are 5th level.
 A 15th level wizard knows 34 spells, 2 of those are 8th level.
 A 20th level wizard knows 44 spells, 8 of those are 9th level.

 (plus some more (usually lower level) spells added with money, of course.)



 So, what do we see here, considering that the psion goes for maximum possible effect and wastes PP at the highest possible rate, the sorcerer needs to resort to the 3-4 highest spell levels to keep up with that number of manifestations. Sure, the sorcerer still has some weak spells left, but then again, each of the psion's manifestations was more powerful (easily up to twice as powerful, considering the lower spell levels involved, I guess there is no argument, that an 8th level power is much, much more powerful than a 5th level spell).

 Also, the psion knows not that much fewer powers than the wizard knows spells in total, however, the wizard can add more for money, which will most certainly double or triple the number of spells known, but the psion's powers also are in most cases at least worth as much as three spells known, since they include all the lower and higher versions the wizard has to learn seperately, and which are included in this knowledge. So the psion is not really that much behind here for sure. If we look at the highest levels only, then the psion is way ahead even with two to three times as many different high level powers to choose from.



 Now in total this means, the psion has the knowledge base of the wizard and _almost_ the casting endurance of the sorcerer, while the psion with no doubt has an equal or higher total power in every single manifestation as compared to the spellcasting of both sorcerer and wizard.

 And this does not take into account the lack of verbal, somatic and material component, the ability to manifest in full plate armor; that the psion is in all ways at the level of the wizard when it comes to gimmicks (skills, feats) and way ahead of the sorcerer here, or to look at it from the other perspective has spontaneous manifestation, which the wizard lacks and which is a huge advantage. It also does not take into account the obviously much better flexibility psions enjoy when it comes to distributing their PP over the day, or when it comes to manifesting a single power (best example the Energy line, but also stuff like Dominate can be custom tailored for the situation each time it is manifested, and these certainly are not the only examples).


 Best of both worlds, I say, with basically none of the disadvantages of either sorcerer or wizard!

 Fair? Hardly! 

 Bye
 Thanee


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## Psion (Sep 8, 2004)

Spatula said:
			
		

> Increasing the save DC of spells/powers is not an impressive feature?




When you have to pay effective cast spell levels for it? No.



> Then why did WOTC nerf Spell Focus in 3.5?




That's another kettle of fish, but if you want my take: because they were over-reacting. It was too easy to mega-pump DCs in 3.0.

But since they nerfed stat enhancers and archmage, nerfing Spell Focus to its presently too weak state was overkill.

And even Andy Collins went on the record as saying he does not feel that +2 DC for one feat was too much.



> Yes, but the psion gets something from paying for increased damage (higher DCs) that arcane casters do not with their free damage scaling.




Since the arcane casters got that benefit without paying for it from their daily allotment of spell slots (like a psion does from their PP), that is not much of a complaint.



> As is _ultrablast_, although _ultrablast_ isn't anywhere near as useful as _horrid wilting._  It is, however, an area-affect power that doesn't affect allies.



[/quote]

I'm not sure why you bring this up again. It seems like you think I am saying something about horrid wilting that I am not. I merely brought it up as an example of why sorcerers have nothing to be ashamed about in high level damage capacity, as well as an example of why there is more to a REAL high level power/spell than more damage and save DC. Ultrablast is an authentic higher level power, so that it compares is sort of unsurprising. (Horrid wilting has a modest advantage in that it is not centered on the caster.)


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## Thanee (Sep 8, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> You really are being obtuse, aren't you?




Too lazy to pick up my dictionary... what is "obtuse"? 



> Just like wizards. It seems like many of your examples rely on comparisons with the arguably underpowered sorcerer.




Nah, but I admit, it probably got a bit mixed up what I meant where... 

To rehash... psion versus sorcerer gains pretty much all that stuff listed, no need to repeat. Psion versus wizard gains SPONTANEOUS manifestation and some other gimmicks (armor, grapple, silence advantages).



> But it's dirty pool to pick the sorcerer as the basis for calling the psion too strong when using the same comparisons, another core class, the wizard, shines in the same area.




I still think spontaneous casting is not something to simply ignore...



> And psions are slightly ahead of the sorcerer too.




Can you actually say that with a straight face!?

If so, you should probably go playing poker in Las Vegas for a living! 



> Actually I didn't. I thought you were talking about spell/power levels, because I knew that a psion doesn't get powers any quicker than a wizard.




Sorry for the confusion then... 



> Also forget not that one of the compensations that wizards have is the ability to learn a large variety of spells and to leave slots open to utilize any of them.




At a considerable (opportunity) cost.



> 1) If the cap is a problem, the sorcerer can pick a new spell (the wizard merely need not memorize it). Note that I have never seen, even at epic levels, a sorcerer dispense with magic missile.




Yeah, but those low level spells, while certainly nice, surely are no match for the higher level ones.



> And I am quite certain that they do. It seems we are at an impasse.




Then look at my post above please, where I tried to underline my "assumption" with actual numbers.



> You want to limit psions to one energy type in your game, then by all means do.




No, I want (and have) limited psions to non-existance in my game. 

As long as they do not put out a decently playtested and balanced book, this will remain that way (and is in full agreement with the other players).



> Do you not understand why? It needs to be, because if you made psions pay for their damage enhancement AND full cost for metapsionics, it would make metapsionics worthless.




Heh. Actually, I totally agree with you, that it is the compensation for this, but everyone else so far told me it was not.



> Further, those level costs aren't just waved off. They show up in terms of psionic focus, which sharply limits the number of such feats the psion can use in a single combat and -- for that matter -- on a single power.




Yes, focus is a limit for sure. Of course, this is compensated by having feats like Psionic Penetration be twice as good as Spell Penetration and Psionic Endowment, let's say three to four times as good as Spell Focus, also (as mentioned above) most good metamagic feats are already subsumed in the psionic system and augmentation system without the need to learn a feat in the first place. And they included ways to circumvent the real cost of focus (using a meaningful action to regain it) with Psionic Meditation and Hustle. So it's really not _that_ bad for the poor psion (the class, not you ).

Bye
Thanee


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## Scion (Sep 8, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Since you cannot prove that it is not?




This onus falls upon your shoulders for now. You have repeatidly asserted that they are unbalanced yet the only 'proof' you present is highly skewed and incredibly one dimensional. Effectively it is designed to try to support what you want but never really does it unless you have one eye closed and are squinting.

Still waiting for you to present a good arguement why it is overpowered.



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> Well, especially for you, here's a quote from the DMG:




Immaterial. They break this 'rule' right in the core. Plus, it does not necissarily relate to things outside of the books it speaks about directly (which, again, is not even true within the core itself).



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> P.S. "the above" is mostly about this discrepancy you handwave away as wrong (without any kind of proof or argument). Your "arcanists cannot cast healing spells" statenent is not a discrepancy, since they can do other things instead.




It is a discrepancy, one caster type can do something that the other cannot. You are saying that psions shouldnt be able to trade one sort of power for another, but you are happy with the supposition that mages do it in another way.

You cannot have it both ways.

Please put up a valid arguement. Obviously you feel strongly about this, otherwise you wouldnt post about it, so you must have a few good reasons somewhere.

Also, you use the torc of psionic might for the psion but you fail to use anything for the other casters. How about rings of wizardry? (they suck for a wizard, but can be very good for a sorc) or pearls of power? (the psionic equivalent is roughly a large pile of poo, but the pearls are incredibly nice). All what you did there was further skew things without any useful way of compensating the other side, which makes the comparison that much more faulty.


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## Psion (Sep 8, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Okay, if you want some numbers, here we go...




I don't suspect that this will prove much, as you have already demonstrated a willingness to ingore or downplay advantages I have sited, I don't suspect you will factor them in in your number crunching, either.

(snip somewhat fair guestimates as to PP and spell slots)



> The reduced number (1/2) for the highest level powers comes from the fact, that not all are augmentable and a few are simply not worth it anymore. I guess this is a fair assumption.




The problem here is that you assume that a low level power augmented to a higher level power is the equivalent of an unaugmented high level power of the same cost. It _might_ match damage or DC (but oft times only one or the other), but often lacks other advantages that higher level powers have.

Further, you are _still_ not factoring in the fact that arcane casters are getting more bang for their buck out of their lower level power slots. A 3rd level fireball from a sorcerer can do 10d6 points of damage, while a psion has to pay 10 power points (the equivalent of a 5th level spell) to do the same amount. You express things in terms of fully augmented powers and ignore the fact that those fully augmented powers may be no better than one of a sorcerer's lower level powers.

Consider each psion PP as a dice of damage and apply the standard damage caps from the DMG as a weight to each level (or the arcane caster's level, whichever is worse), and you have a more realistic picture of their comparative power in terms of raw damaging potential. (Again, like your examples, it does not paint a complete picture, but it does shine a light on an area you are neglecting). For reference, a 10th level sorcerer will have 275 dice of damage power, compared to the psion's 113 (assuming a 20 in prime stat).



> Note, that the sorcerer is leagues behind in spells known and the wizard somewhat lacks behind in spellcastings per day, still I pick the optimum from both classes in this comparison in each case!




Which neglects the advantages each have as well.



> (plus some more (usually lower level) spells added with money, of course.)




Since spell scribing costs increase linearly and wealth increases exponentially, that's a faulty assumption for any competantly played wizard.



> So, what do we see here, considering that the psion goes for maximum possible effect and wastes PP at the highest possible rate, the sorcerer needs to resort to the 3-4 highest spell levels to keep up with that number of manifestations. Sure, the sorcerer still has some weak spells left, but then again, each of the psion's manifestations was more powerful (easily up to twice as powerful, considering the lower spell levels involved, I guess there is no argument, that an 8th level power is much, much more powerful than a 5th level spell).




Again, that does not mean that a 5th level (or 3rd level or 1st level) power augmented to 8th level is as powerful as an 8th level power. But the psion would have to be spending points in that fashion just to keep up with the sorcerer. A 10th level psion would have to spend the power point equivalent of a 5th level spell to do as much damage as a 3rd level fireball.



> Also, the psion knows not that much fewer powers than the wizard knows spells in total, however, the wizard can add more for money, which will most certainly double or triple the number of spells known, but the psion's powers also are in most cases at least worth as much as three spells known,




Another estimate I do not agree with. Especially not "in most cases." While in some cases a wizard may want to pick up a few spells in a similar chain, in most cases, they skip around a little. A sorcerer would be especially foolhardy to squander slots similar to slots they already have unless they are planning on dumping the earlier ones.



> or to look it from the other perspective has spontaneous manifestation, which the wizard lacks.




And neglects such factors as the wizard leaving open slots to access WAY more spells than the psion could ever hope to.



> It also does not take into account the obviously much better flexibility psions enjoy when it comes to distributing their PP over the day.




Which is an argument made in the same breath as asserting that psions can outblast a sorcerer -- at the cost of squandering all of their PP for the day. Yes, flexibilty is an advantage. But as overhead is more for a psion, they pay for that advantage.



> Best of both worlds, I say, with basically none of the disadvantages of either sorcerer or wizard!




If you stack the deck and ignore advantages of arcane casters compared to psions, yeah.


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## Psion (Sep 8, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Too lazy to pick up my dictionary... what is "obtuse"?




It means I feel you are deliberately trying to not get my points.



> I still think spontaneous casting is not something to simply ignore...




I never said it did. But I don't feel like the advantages of the wizards breadth of spells and potential specialist advantages can be ignored, either (in fact, specialists are the primary reason I feel wizards have it all over sorcerers)



> Can you actually say that with a straight face!?




Oh, please, Thanee. I am giving you the benefit of trusting that you actually beleive the psion to be overpowered. I just think you are making mountains out of molehills when it comes to evauting their comparative strengths. I agreed with earlier critics that the psion is underpowered (not the the degree that strutinian suggests, but still). They jazzed it up a bit, but I do not beleive it is to the degree I would call it overpowered. And experiences in actual play with psions bear this out IME.



> Sorry for the confusion then...




Heh... http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=12 



> Yeah, but those low level spells, while certainly nice, surely are no match for the higher level ones.




Oh, undoubtedly. I am not saying lower level spells are the same potency as higher level spells.

What I am saying is that those lower level spells are on par with lower level augmented powers that the psion will be _paying the price of higher level powers_ for.



> Then look at my post above please, where I tried to underline my "assumption" with actual numbers.




See my response to said post for why I beleive your numbers have a lot of blind spots and miss points I have been making since I got involved with this time-slaughtering thread.



> Heh. Actually, I totally agree with you, that it is the compensation for this, but everyone else so far told me it was not.




Quick, write this down. 



> Yes, focus is a limit for sure. Of course, this is compensated by having feats like Psionic Penetration be twice as good as Spell Penetration and Psionic Endowment, let's say three to four times as good as Spell Focus,




I'm not sure how to reply to that considering I consider spell focus underpowered.

You do pay for it, though. Just as before. I think it could be significant to leverage some powers. Too useful? Hard to say. I'll leaning towards the side of "not" since animal affinity is a discipline power.



> also (as mentioned above) most good metamagic feats are already subsumed in the psionic system and augmentation system without the need to learn a feat in the first place.




But only with partial benefits of each. Some of the benefits that those feats give you -- mainly, lack of being noticed using a power/casting a spell -- are still a problem for psions.



> And they included ways to circumvent the real cost of focus (using a meaningful action to regain it) with Psionic Meditation and Hustle. So it's really not _that_ bad for the poor psion (the class, not you ).




While that solves the full action annoyance, it still keeps you from using any other enhancements or feats that would require you to expend your focus.


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## Scion (Sep 8, 2004)

Remember, if a caster picks up spell penetration then all of their spells are caster level +2 to overcome spell resistance.

However, the psion must burn focus in order to get any sort of benefit at all out of his power penetration. Sure, the bonus is higher (+2 higher), but the cost is just monstrous. Too much cost for too little benefit, even with the higher plus.


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## ForceUser (Sep 8, 2004)

Interesting discussion, but it might be that you folks aren't looking at the whole picture. It has been suggested in my gaming group that while, yes, we agree that the XPH psion is a better nuker than the wizard or sorcerer, he is far weaker defensively that either class. I won't argue the point since I haven't read the psionic powers in detail, but isn't it true that the psion has far fewer defensive capabilites than a like-leveled arcanist? That's got to count for something when you're stacking the casters up against each other.


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## Majere (Sep 8, 2004)

I dont own the XPH, Ive never been a psion fan, but some comments having read the whole thread.

1) Your comparrisons are wrong.
You shouldnt compare a 1st level spell to a first level power.
You should compare a silent,still eschewed first level spell to a first level power. That is a 1st level psi power is equivalent to a 3rd level spell. 2nd level powers to a 4th level spell and so on.
If you want to compare ps/day to spells/day you should consider this explicitally.

Further a 1st level spell from a 5th level caster is not the same as a 1st level power from a 5th level caster which has been agumented. 
You want to compare a 1st level silent,still,eschewed spell cast as a 5th level spell (That makes it a 7th level spell equivalent), with a 1st level power augmented to 5dice.

Now, just reading that tell me instinctively that psions are over powered.
I dont need to know the number crunching of the system to understand that.

Further to the point. 
2) Wizzards rarely cast more than 2/3 of the spells per day.
Reason ? Often spells you pick are useless because you picked wrong. Unless you read the DM's notes you will never have a perfect spell list so this should be taken into account.
Spontaineous spell casting means you will always be able to use all your pps, you always have the perfect spell for the job, right there in your head.

3) Energy substitution is one of the most powerful gimiks out there. 
Full stop
Period.

From the threads Ive read about psi, the whole XPH sounds badly thought out and no reall attempt at balance has been effected. Of course I cant be sure, but what I read worries me. And psions flailing hasnt convinced me at all that he is right.

Just my 2c

Majere


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## Thanee (Sep 8, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> I don't suspect that this will prove much, as you have already demonstrated a willingness to ingore or downplay advantages I have sited, I don't suspect you will factor them in in your number crunching, either.
> 
> (snip somewhat fair guestimates as to PP and spell slots)




Cute! 



> The problem here is that you assume that a low level power augmented to a higher level power is the equivalent of an unaugmented high level power of the same cost. It _might_ match damage or DC (but oft times only one or the other), but often lacks other advantages that higher level powers have.




Ahem. Plenty powers _are_ (globes of invulnerability aside, which really is an almost neglectible factor) upgradeable to the power of a higher level. Powers do not work like spells on that behalf, they actually become higher level versions of themselves effectively (except for the actual level, which stays the same, of course). Arcane Construct? Dominate? Suggestion? Dispel? Just to name some random examples.



> Further, you are _still_ not factoring in the fact that arcane casters are getting more bang for their buck out of their lower level power slots.




How does full augmentation not factor this in!?

I compared fully augmented powers with spells there. Only fully augmented powers!

Please tell me, how full augmentation does not factor in the scaling of arcane spells.



> A 3rd level fireball from a sorcerer can do 10d6 points of damage, while a psion has to pay 10 power points (the equivalent of a 5th level spell) to do the same amount. You express things in terms of fully augmented powers and ignore the fact that those fully augmented powers may be no better than one of a sorcerer's lower level powers.




*blink*

Not better?

Well, taking the fireball example, if you consider a +2 DC, +10 damage, chooseable save type and energy type not better, than I cannot help you, I guess. 



> Consider each psion PP as a dice of damage and apply the standard damage caps from the DMG as a weight to each level (or the arcane caster's level, whichever is worse), and you have a more realistic picture of their comparative power in terms of raw damaging potential. (Again, like your examples, it does not paint a complete picture, but it does shine a light on an area you are neglecting). For reference, a 10th level sorcerer will have 275 dice of damage power, compared to the psion's 113 (assuming a 20 in prime stat).




What kind of completely useless comparison is this!? Who cares for these numbers, they have no bearing on actual game play. My numbers do, they show what the classes can _actually_ do and are no hypothetical statistics with no meaning, multiplying some random numbers with other random numbers. Yes, I understand what you are getting at, but what does it show to add up those numbers, that sorcerers look better, if you add up the whole scaling they get and compare it to a psion removed of all advantages they have? Wow! Genius!

And you honestly tell me I would neglect something there? Doh! 



> Which neglects the advantages each have as well.




*scratches head* Now you lost me... or did I lose you above? 



> Since spell scribing costs increase linearly and wealth increases exponentially, that's a faulty assumption for any competantly played wizard.




And the next thing you say is, that the scribing cost is a neglectable cost factor, huh? Suuure!  Maybe at epic levels... but my 12th level wizardess had to spend a _considerable_ amount of gold on her spellbook alone, to get this broad selection wizards _have_.



> Another estimate I do not agree with. Especially not "in most cases." While in some cases a wizard may want to pick up a few spells in a similar chain, in most cases, they skip around a little.




Yeah, of course wizards would not upgrade the spells they actually use (either directly to a higher level version of the same spell, or something fairly similar)... why should they!?



> And neglects such factors as the wizard leaving open slots to access WAY more spells than the psion could ever hope to.




"Way more" is a huge overstatement, but more, of course, maybe 20% or so. However 15 minutes to instant is still quite some difference. Not everytime, but also leaving slots open means to have less spells available at the moment. Yes, this ability is good, I'm using it extensively when I play wizards, but it's not even in the same ball park as spontaneous casting.



> Which is an argument made in the same breath as asserting that psions can outblast a sorcerer -- at the cost of squandering all of their PP for the day. Yes, flexibilty is an advantage. But as overhead is more for a psion, they pay for that advantage.




And way too little as shown above, since they can keep up with the sorcerer quite good, even if they pay full price for every power they manifest. If you go down to an augmentation level, which makes the effect of the power compareable to the spells of the sorcerer, which is not the maximum possible, mind you, the numbers look even worse, but I deliberately chose a point, which would be extremely slanted against the psion (full augmentation on all powers means the quickest way to blast through all those PP, so the cost you mention all the time is at its peak there), and even then, things do not look _that_ bad, I'd say. If I look at all the stuff I've listed, which psions get over sorcerers, then I can with absolute confidence say, that this cost is not enough!



> If you stack the deck and ignore advantages of arcane casters compared to psions, yeah.




Yep, sure. Stacking the deck, since I compare the psion to the best ability from each sorcerer (spells per day) and wizard (spells known) instead of the weakest... Stacking the deck against the arcanists maybe... 

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Sep 9, 2004)

ForceUser said:
			
		

> Interesting discussion, but it might be that you folks aren't looking at the whole picture. It has been suggested in my gaming group that while, yes, we agree that the XPH psion is a better nuker than the wizard or sorcerer, he is far weaker defensively that either class. I won't argue the point since I haven't read the psionic powers in detail, but isn't it true that the psion has far fewer defensive capabilites than a like-leveled arcanist? That's got to count for something when you're stacking the casters up against each other.




Hmmm, no I don't think they are lacking here. Most good defensive spells are available as powers. Surely not all defensive spells, but the best stuff for sure. Psions even get Mind Blank at what 6th power level?

Their main disadvantage here is, that they can only really protect themselves, not others.

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Sep 9, 2004)

> Oh, please, Thanee. I am giving you the benefit of trusting that you actually believe the psion to be overpowered.




I do.

But this was about psion versus sorcerer. You will not find many people (not even Scion, tho he will probably say so, just to be on the opposition ), that agree, that the difference between sorcerer and psion is just _slight_. Be it the sorcerer being underpowered or the psion being overpowered is irrelevant, the difference between those two is what that was about. And the term "slight" certainly does not do it justice.



> Oh, undoubtedly. I am not saying lower level spells are the same potency as higher level spells.
> 
> What I am saying is that those lower level spells are on par with lower level augmented powers that the psion will be _paying the price of higher level powers_ for.




Sure. Everyone knows that.



> I'm not sure how to reply to that considering I consider spell focus underpowered.




Well, if Spell Focus was +2, Psionic Endowment would have been +2, so that's really a non-issue for this comparison.



> You do pay for it, though. Just as before. I think it could be significant to leverage some powers. Too useful? Hard to say. I'll leaning towards the side of "not" since animal affinity is a discipline power.




Not too useful, but you get something in return for this focus restriction, that's all I'm saying, so it's not just an added restriction, but an advantage and a disadvantage.

I just thought I added this, since your mentioning of the focus neglected this little fact. 



> But only with partial benefits of each. Some of the benefits that those feats give you -- mainly, lack of being noticed using a power/casting a spell -- are still a problem for psions.




Which they can prevent with a simple skill roll of a skill they will have maxed anyways, IIRC.



> While that solves the full action annoyance, it still keeps you from using any other enhancements or feats that would require you to expend your focus.




Indeed, the focus limit is mainly, that you can only use one feat at a time. In turn those feats are better one by one.

Advantage and disadvantage.

Bye
Thanee


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## Tidus4444 (Sep 9, 2004)

I think you all are forgetting one thing, and that's that the wizard/sorcerer can use metamagic feats to bypass the dice cap.  Psions can't really.

Take it at 10th level.  A Psion vs. a Wizard.  A wizard can cast his empowered Fireball for what effectively amounts to 15d6 points of damage.  Even if the psion applies empower spell to his energy cone (which expends psionic focus, BTW), we've got 12d6+8,or roughly 14d6 damage.  They're about equal.  Take it at level 15, same deal.

Now, at lower levels, a Psion will deal better damage than a wizard.  The wizard has a lot more up his sleeve though.  Perhaps it's simply my playing style, but I rely on buffing spells a lot.  The Psion doesn't get enlarge person (that he can cast on other party members anyway, and who wants an enlarged caster?).  No shield.  No ani-buff spells.  No Haste.  No Heroism.  No Stoneskin.  No improved invis.  No sleep.  No rainbow pattern.


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## Thanee (Sep 9, 2004)

Tidus4444 said:
			
		

> Take it at 10th level.  A Psion vs. a Wizard.  A wizard can cast his empowered Fireball for what effectively amounts to 15d6 points of damage.




Yeah, and the psion's non-metapsionicked Energy Ball deals 10d6+10, which is about 13d6, has a +2 higher save DC and the option for another energy type and even another save type (against those pesky Evasionists). Furthermore it has no verbal, somatic or material components.

Where's the problem?

Energy Ball can keep up easily with fireball, even a metamagicked fireball.

Bye
Thanee


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## Scion (Sep 9, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> And of course psions cannot get beyond their dice caps... they do not have any!





Strange, looks to me like energy ball maxes out at 7d6 unless augmented. Whereas a fireball maxes out at 10d6 unless modified somehow.

So energy ball is one level higher, is on the kineticist list, and does less damage.


----------



## Thanee (Sep 9, 2004)

No wonder that you cannot prove anything. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Psion (Sep 9, 2004)

Majere said:
			
		

> 1) Your comparrisons are wrong.
> You shouldnt compare a 1st level spell to a first level power.
> You should compare a silent,still eschewed first level spell to a first level power. That is a 1st level psi power is equivalent to a 3rd level spell. 2nd level powers to a 4th level spell and so on.




Do you seriously beleive this?

Try this thought experiment.

Tell your players you are introducing a new class. The stealth mage.

They have the sorcerer/wizard spell list, EXCEPT all of their spells are silenced and stilled, and the spells are two levels higher.

See how many players take it. See how it gets trounced in an environment designed for its level.

In short, those feats are not worth that much. Those feats are provided as options. They do not have the potency to replace a spell level.

Further, as I already pointed out earlier, psions do not receive the full benefits of those feats.



> Further to the point.
> 2) Wizzards rarely cast more than 2/3 of the spells per day.




I'll state, IME, that is wrong. Last wizard I played cast out of his spells three consecutive times in a dungeon, forcing a party retreat each time.



> Reason ? Often spells you pick are useless because you picked wrong. Unless you read the DM's notes you will never have a perfect spell list so this should be taken into account.




This ignores the open slot rule, as well as cheap scrolls as backups at low levels.



> Spontaineous spell casting means you will always be able to use all your pps, you always have the perfect spell for the job, right there in your head.




It most certainly does not. The much more limited spell selection means that you often don't know the right spell or power _at all_. Saving the points and not solving the problem at all is not a boon.



> 3) Energy substitution is one of the most powerful gimiks out there.
> Full stop
> Period.




So, you implicitly and absolutely trust the R&D team's assessment on the value of still and silent spell feats, but not this one, eh?


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## Scion (Sep 9, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> No wonder that you cannot prove anything.




Apparently you are not playing d&d.

SRD:
Energy Ball
Psychokinesis [see text]
Level: Kineticist 4
Display: Auditory
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half or Fortitude half; see text
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 7
Upon manifesting this power, you choose cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. You create an explosion of energy of the chosen type that *deals 7d6 points of damage * to every creature or object within the area.  The explosion creates almost no pressure.
Cold: A ball of this energy type deals +1 point of damage per die. The saving throw to reduce damage from a cold ball is a Fortitude save instead of a Reflex save.
Electricity: Manifesting a ball of this energy type provides a +2 bonus to the save DC and a +2 bonus on manifester level checks for the purpose of overcoming power resistance.
Fire: A ball of this energy type deals +1 point of damage per die. 
Sonic: A ball of this energy type deals –1 point of damage per die and ignores an object’s hardness.
This power’s subtype is the same as the type of energy you manifest. 
Augment: For every additional power point you spend, this power’s damage increases by one die (d6). For each extra two dice of damage, this power’s save DC increases by 1. 


Fireball
Evocation [Fire]
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes
A fireball spell is an explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and *deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) * to every creature within the area. Unattended objects also take this damage. The explosion creates almost no pressure.
You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. (An early impact results in an early detonation.) If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.
The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze. If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the fireball may continue beyond the barrier if the area permits; otherwise it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does.
Material Component: A tiny ball of bat guano and sulfur.


Energy ball is one level higher, is on the kineticist list (not general), and does less dice of damage than fireball (equal caster level of at least 8th).

In other words, you are apparently playing some game other than d&d. Please post things relevant to d&d instead of whichever other game you are refering to.


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## Psion (Sep 9, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Ahem. Plenty powers _are_




And plenty of powers -- including the ones that this thread are about -- aren't. They fail to add side effects, time delays, advantageous targeting rules, or potent save or die effects that higher level powers and effects enjoy.



> How does full augmentation not factor this in!?
> 
> I compared fully augmented powers with spells there. Only fully augmented powers!
> 
> ...




Hold on there hoss. I exlicitly only mentioned damage in the example you are talking about. You are not being fair to my point, instead only finding ways to ignore it.

Agreed - You get +2 DC over that 3rd level fireball to spend 5 more points.

OTOH, if we spend the same power/spell level equivalent, the arcane caster gets 10d6. The psion only gets 5d6.

On the gripping hand, at 10th level, the sorcerer or wizard has two spell levels worth of enhancement that they could jazz that spell up with, and they still get 10 dice worth of damage. If the psion wants to jazz the spell up, they have to cut into the points that are paying for the damage dice.



> What kind of completely useless comparison is this!? Who cares for these numbers, they have no bearing on actual game play. My numbers do,




I already amplified that my numbers don't tell the whole story, but yours don't either. And my numbers certainly do have bearing on actual game play.



> they show what the classes can _actually_ do and are no hypothetical statistics with no meaning, multiplying some random numbers with other random numbers.




They are not random numbers. They are drawn directly from the spell design guidelines in the DMG and directly acknowledge those caps you are so eager to cite, which are an implicit part of spell design. So I am factoring in _your_ points into my assessment, a courtesy that you have yet to return to me.



> And the next thing you say is, that the scribing cost is a neglectable cost factor, huh?




I didn't say that, did I? Please don't put words in my mouth. My assertion was that, given scribing cost is linear, a wizard has no reason to (and in fact, would be foolish to) stick to scribing low level spells.



> Yeah, of course wizards would not upgrade the spells they actually use (either directly to a higher level version of the same spell, or something fairly similar)... why should they!?




Hey, once I got the fiendish dire ape, if I was playing the wizard, I wouldn't bother upgrading summon monster for a few levels.

Similarly, if I was decked out on attack spells, I would focus on utility spells for a few levels.



> "Way more" is a huge overstatement, but more, of course, maybe 20% or so.




And I beg to differ. I would be surprised if wizards don't DOUBLE the amount of spells/powers that a sorcerer/psion knows.



> However 15 minutes to instant is still quite some difference. Not everytime, but also leaving slots open means to have less spells available at the moment.




Ah, but there is a very simple tactic to be used here that most wizard players know: memorize primarily spells you will need in an instant. Leave spell slots open for utility spells that you will typically not need in an instant.



> And way too little as shown above, since they can keep up with the sorcerer quite good, even if they pay full price for every power they manifest.




As my analysis which you blithely threw out as irrelevant shows that a psion has LESS THAN HALF of the damage dealing capability of the sorcerer before they are exhausted.


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## Tidus4444 (Sep 9, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Yeah, and the psion's non-metapsionicked Energy Ball deals 10d6+10, which is about 13d6, has a +2 higher save DC and the option for another energy type and even another save type (against those pesky Evasionists). Furthermore it has no verbal, somatic or material components.
> 
> Where's the problem?
> 
> ...




Exactly my point.  Where is the problem?  With metamagic feats, sorcies and wizards can keep up with Psion damage at higher levels.  At lower levels, psions lack a lot of the party benefiting buff spells that are oh-so useful.  Seems pretty balanced to me.


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## Spatula (Sep 9, 2004)

Tidus4444 said:
			
		

> Even if the psion applies empower spell to his energy cone (which expends psionic focus, BTW), we've got 12d6+8



12d6+12, actually.  Empower applies to the total, not just the dice.



> Now, at lower levels, a Psion will deal better damage than a wizard.  The wizard has a lot more up his sleeve though.  Perhaps it's simply my playing style, but I rely on buffing spells a lot.  The Psion doesn't get enlarge person (that he can cast on other party members anyway, and who wants an enlarged caster?).  No shield.  No ani-buff spells.  No Haste.  No Heroism.  No Stoneskin.  No improved invis.  No sleep.  No rainbow pattern.



Shield is a range personal spell, and the psion gets force screen which is the same thing only the AC bonus can be augmented (though he has to pay through the nose for it; inertial/mage armor is a better deal but unlike the mage then the psion can wear real armor so it's not as useful for him).

Sleep = disable, though sleep is more effective.


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## Spatula (Sep 9, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> Since the arcane casters got that benefit without paying for it from their daily allotment of spell slots (like a psion does from their PP), that is not much of a complaint.



Arcane casters get higher DCs without paying for it from their spell slots?  I'm not getting you.


> I'm not sure why you bring this up again.



Misunderstood your previous post.


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## Thanee (Sep 9, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> And plenty of powers -- including the ones that this thread are about -- aren't. They fail to add side effects, time delays, advantageous targeting rules, or potent save or die effects that higher level powers and effects enjoy.




Of course, which is why I cut the number in half. It's a guesstimate, but I doubt it is highly inaccurate.



> Hold on there hoss. I exlicitly only mentioned damage in the example you are talking about. You are not being fair to my point, instead only finding ways to ignore it.




Nope, I just add what you are leaving out, nothing else. Comparing damage only (like Scion does, too) is not meaningful, as it ignores the rest of the picture.



> On the gripping hand, at 10th level, the sorcerer or wizard has two spell levels worth of enhancement that they could jazz that spell up with, and they still get 10 dice worth of damage. If the psion wants to jazz the spell up, they have to cut into the points that are paying for the damage dice.




Hey, everyone is aware of this. And if you look closer at my above comparison, you'll find, that even if they do this (full augmentation that is), they still have a respectable number of power manifestations per day! Yes, the sorcerer has more, but 90% of them are weaker in effect than every single one the psion has.

If you take the 15th level and say that a 1st level spell plus a 6th level spell is roughly the same in total effect as a single 8th level power, than do the same for 2nd and 5th and 3rd and 4th (and this is not true, the sum is still weaker *), the number of "totals" are about equal already, the psion has them focused together (not necessarily, just when going for full augmentation always, while the sorcerer has spread them out somewhat - it's not hard to figure which is better in D&D in almost all circumstances, if I need two rounds of casting to have the (roughly) same total effect as another character has in a single round of casting, then I'm definitely weaker)!

* Sidenote: If I had to rate lower level spells against higher level spells, I'd say that one nth level spell is about the same effective total as one (n-1)th level spell PLUS one (n-2)th level spell. This is certainly not true all the time, but overall it should be fairly close. See Mytic Theurge example below for why I think this is pretty close.

Sure, there are some (few) situations, where this splitting is better, but it's not like the psion could not simply split the PP for two different weaker effects, if needed. And given the way their PP expand over the course of the levels, these will be a lot of weaker effects. If those weaker effects would be the only thing you need over the course of the day (which will never be the case for sure), then your comparison might work out and then the sorcerer would come out on top in this area (and this area only, even then still leaving plenty others where the sorcerer lacks behind), since the scaling would still be there, but the augmentation would not work out as well, altho, to be honest, I'm not even sure of this, because of the rate at which the total PP increase adds a lot of effects to the total. But as this (manifesting only low level effects) will basically never be the best possible course of action (as opposed to manifesting only (or at least lots of) high level effects, which will often be useful), it's irrelvant for actual play, anyways.

Almost everyone who plays D&D knows (or should know ), that single high level spells (and a fully augmented power is definitely the equivalent of a high level spell, even if you do not agree about comparing low level scaled spells to low level augmented powers, this one simply cannot be put aside) are better than multiple low level spells!

Remember the Mystic Theurge? Much more spells per day than a sorcerer and all of them are of lower levels. This example shows quite effectively, that the above is most certainly true. While the low level spells are not useless they are simply not as useful as the high level ones and that even if you rack two of those together.



> I already amplified that my numbers don't tell the whole story, but yours don't either. And my numbers certainly do have bearing on actual game play.




That is what?

What does it help the sorcerer to have all these damage dice, if they cannot be brought to bear in a situation where it counts?



> I didn't say that, did I? Please don't put words in my mouth. My assertion was that, given scribing cost is linear, a wizard has no reason to (and in fact, would be foolish to) stick to scribing low level spells.




Hey, I just exaggerated what you were saying. 

And it's not very likely that a wizard can afford a plethora of high level spells to be written, they are not _that_ cheap. Not without serious drawbacks at least (the opportunity cost of spell scribing).



> Hey, once I got the fiendish dire ape, if I was playing the wizard, I wouldn't bother upgrading summon monster for a few levels.




For how many? 1? 2? There are nine levels of that spell and each of them is like twice as good as the one before.



> Similarly, if I was decked out on attack spells, I would focus on utility spells for a few levels.




Of course, but can't the psion do this, too? Once he has his *two* attack powers, which cover basically every situation imaginable (slight exaggeration here ), the focus can be shifted on other areas. And 36 powers is a long way to go.



> And I beg to differ. I would be surprised if wizards don't DOUBLE the amount of spells/powers that a sorcerer/psion knows.




If you compare single spells to single powers, I don't disagree. If you compare them on a fair base, then this will - while certainly possible - cost them more than half of their complete resources. Not to mention the huge diminishing returns here, since at some point new spells added do not add much content to a spellbook, which should be obvious, hopefully.



> Ah, but there is a very simple tactic to be used here that most wizard players know: memorize primarily spells you will need in an instant. Leave spell slots open for utility spells that you will typically not need in an instant.




Yes, and this tactic still reduces the number (and thus breadth) of instantly available spells. It's still probably the best way to go for a wizard, but it's not like it would give them the flexibility of spontaneous casting in a situation where resting simply isn't possible.



> As my analysis which you blithely threw out as irrelevant shows that a psion has LESS THAN HALF of the damage dealing capability of the sorcerer before they are exhausted.




Nope, it doesn't show anything. That's why I blithely throw it out as irrelvant. It is.

If you don't compare on a fair level, of course things do not look like they really are.

I have said numerous times (even in the very comparison itself I mentioned it), that sorcerers can cast more spells in a day than psions can manifest powers, but ignoring the potency of these castings/manifestations highly distorts the picture.

You only add in the potency for the sorcerer and ignore pretty much everything for the psion, by just adding up their power points as damage dice. Like the fact how many of those can be brought to bear in a single action and how often this can be done, more often than the sorcerer could ever dream of.

The Mystic Theurge example coming back to mind here.

So the Mystic Theurge is MUCH, MUCH more powerful as a spellcaster, since adding up their spell slots this way is even higher, eh?

Well, let me tell you, that the Mystic Theurge is one of the weakest spellcasters around. Because numbers do not compensate for potency!

Their offense is so weak, that they completely pale in comparison to any single class caster. They are nice for party buffs, since they can waste their spells like noone else, but that's about it.

Yet, if using your method of comparing, they would come out on top for sure (in the damage dealing department), by far even!

So, how does this fit into your picture?

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Sep 9, 2004)

Tidus4444 said:
			
		

> Exactly my point.  Where is the problem?  With metamagic feats, sorcies and wizards can keep up with Psion damage at higher levels.  At lower levels, psions lack a lot of the party benefiting buff spells that are oh-so useful.  Seems pretty balanced to me.




That's balanced to you?

That sorcerers and wizards can *only* keep up somewhat with a psion by spending feats (and even then lose out since they cannot simply switch the energy type and save type - the +2 DC alone surely makes up for the other 2d6 of damage) and then only with a fraction (10~20%) of their daily spells, since all the other slots have a lower level?

Wow!

Bye
Thanee


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## Mouseferatu (Sep 9, 2004)

Wow, people feel strongly about this. Didn't mean to start a screaming match here. :\

I'm realizing what _part_ of my problem is, and that's playing style. This is one case where the "back to the dungeon" balance of 3E doesn't work for me. I tend to throw my PCs up against fewer fights, but to make those fights tougher. It's not at all unusual for the party to face only one or two fights before they have the chance to rest. That particular style of combat makes limited-uses-per-day abilities much more potent. In fact, come to think of it...

I have never, since the day I picked up the 3.0 PHB, seen a caster run out of spells, or a barbarian run out of rages.

Obviously, if part of the psion's balance is supposed to be represented by the fact that they burn through their powers much faster if they bump them all to max, that's not going to come in play as much in my games.

Hmm... Okay, that doesn't solve all my problems. But it does explain some of them.

I do want to take a moment to clarify my position, since I started the thread.

I like psions and psionics. I feel that, for the most part, the XPH is very well balanced with core material. The only reason this is a major issue for me is because of A) play style, as described above, and B) because it doesn't sit right with me that there's a class capable of out-performing the arcane casters when it comes to offensive mystical abilities.

But people who are taking this argument as evidence that they should avoid psionics, please don't. It's a very good book, with some really cool concepts. And frankly, the problems presented above are easily houseruled, if you agree that they're an issue.


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## Thanee (Sep 9, 2004)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Wow, people feel strongly about this. Didn't mean to start a screaming match here. :\




Who's screaming?



> Obviously, if part of the psion's balance is supposed to be represented by the fact that they burn through their powers much faster if they bump them all to max, that's not going to come in play as much in my games.




But that doesn't work, just read my post on page 3 (and the one here, which mentions the Mystic Theurge) - even if they do, they can still compete very well (AND have all sorts of advantages left, which are still uncompensated for (opposed by mainly lack of party buffs and a smaller total base to pick powers from, which hardly balances out well, if you compare it to something like spontaneous manifestation (as opposed to prepared casting)))!

Bye
Thanee


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## Mouseferatu (Sep 9, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> But that doesn't work, just read my post on page 3 (and the one here, which mentions the Mystic Theurge) - even if they do, they can still compete very well (AND have all sorts of advantages left, which are still uncompensated for (opposed by mainly lack of party buffs and a smaller total base to pick powers from, which hardly balances out well, if you compare it to something like spontaneous manifestation (as opposed to prepared casting)))!




Hence my comment that it solved some of my problems, not all of them.


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## green slime (Sep 9, 2004)

I read some strange ascertations regarding wizards here...



			
				Majere said:
			
		

> 2) Wizzards rarely cast more than 2/3 of the spells per day.
> Reason ? Often spells you pick are useless because you picked wrong. Unless you read the DM's notes you will never have a perfect spell list so this should be taken into account.
> Spontaineous spell casting means you will always be able to use all your pps, you always have the perfect spell for the job, right there in your head.




Except, an 11th level psion (see below) can only know 22 powers, two of which are really 6th level. Your psion requires far more careful planning upon levelling, than a wizard. The wizard is far, far more likely to have a spell for just the job, and may well have the scroll tucked away, when the psion just shrugs his shoulders and says "Can't help you, I'm afraid...". And you have completely ignored the fact that if 1/3 of the spell slots are unused, the wizard should be rethinking his daily spell selection, and consider leaving slots open as suggested earlier. 



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> A 5th level wizard knows 14 spells, 2 of those are 3rd level.
> A 10th level wizard knows 24 spells, 4 of those are 5th level.
> A 15th level wizard knows 34 spells, 2 of those are 8th level.
> A 20th level wizard knows 44 spells, 8 of those are 9th level.




I have never known a wizard to have so few spells. The PHB describes the possibility to scribe spells from a spellcaster's spellbook at the 50gp per spell level, and together with a Boccob's Blessed Book, the  middle to high level Wizard's most pressing urgency is finding the time to stand still long enough to scribe the multitude of spells he can afford. 66 known spells of levels 1st and up at 11th level character level, is not unusual, IME.

Check out this wizard. 115 spells at 11th character level, ignoring cantrips.


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## Thanee (Sep 9, 2004)

Just read on below the part you quoted... 

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Sep 9, 2004)

green slime said:
			
		

> Check out this wizard. 115 spells at 11th character level, ignoring cantrips.




Look, here's the spellbook of my 12th level wizardess (all in boccob's, of course):

*Spellbook:*
*0th -* Resistance, Acid Splash, Detect Poison, Detect Magic, Read Magic, Daze, Ghost Sound, Disrupt Undead, Touch of Fatigue, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Open/Close, Arcane Mark, Prestidigitation, Silent Portal [MoF], Launch Bolt [MoF];
*1st -* Alarm, Endure Elements, Protection from Evil, Shield, Mage Armor, Mount, Unseen Servant, Comprehend Languages, Detect Secret Doors, Identify, True Strike, Charm Person, Disguise Self, Nystul's Magic Aura, Silent Image, Ray of Enfeeblement, Animate Rope, Enlarge Person, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Jump, Reduce Person, Know Protections [MoF], Kaupaer's Skittish Nerves [MoF];
*2nd -* Arcane Lock, Resist Energy, Glitterdust, Web, Detect Thoughts, Locate Object, See Invisibility, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Misdirection, Blindness/Deafness, Command Undead, False Life, Alter Self, Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Darkvision, Eagle's Splendor, Fox's Cunning, Knock, Owl's Wisdom, Rope Trick, Familiar Pocket [T&B], Create Magic Tattoo [PGtF], Blindsight [PGtF], Lively Step [PGtF];
*3rd -* Dispel Magic, Magic Circle against Evil, Magic Circle against Law, Magic Circle against Chaos, Protection from Energy, Phantom Steed, Arcane Sight, Clairvoyance/Clairaudiance, Tongues, Heroism, Suggestion, Displacement, Invisibility Sphere, Major Image, Gentle Repose, Fly, Gaseous Form, Haste, Greater Magic Weapon, Shrink Item, Slow, Water Breathing, Repair Serious Damage [T&B], Enhance Familiar [T&B], Mestil's Acid Breath [MoF], Khelben's Suspended Silence [MoF], Amanuensis [MoF], Deeper Darkvision [UD];
*4th -* Dimensional Anchor, Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, Dimension Door, Evard's Black Tentacles, Leomund's Secure Shelter, Arcane Eye, Detect Scrying, Locate Creature, Scrying, Charm Monster, Confusion, Animate Dead, Enervation, Polymorph, Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer, Stone Shape, Fortify Familiar [T&B], Spell Enhancer [PGtF], Superior Darkvision [UE];
*5th -* Break Enchantment, Dismissal, Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum, Cloudkill, Leomund's Secret Chest, Major Creation, Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound, Wall of Stone, Contact Other Plane, Prying Eyes, Dominate Person, Feeblemind, Hold Monster, Magic Jar, Fabricate, Overland Flight, Passwall, Telekinesis, Permanency, Energy Buffer [T&B], Ghostform [T&B], Lutzaen's Frequent Jaunt [MoF], Kiss of the Vampire [MoF], Shape Metal [RoF];
*6th -* Antimagic Field, Greater Dispel Magic, Guards and Wards, Planar Binding, Summon Monster VI, Wall of Iron, Analyze Dweomer, True Seeing, Geas/Quest, Greater Heroism, Mass Suggestion, Disintegrate, Flesh to Stone, Mordenkainen's Lucubration, Move Earth, Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability [T&B], Hardening [MoF], Stone Body [PGtF], Stone Metamorphosis [UD];

And I tell you it cost a fortune to pay for those!

Bye
Thanee


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## Allanon (Sep 9, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> ...
> And I tell you it cost a fortune to pay for those!




The fact that the wizard has the fortune to pay for it makes this point moot. Character wealth is an inherent part of the D&D d20 system. Thus any credible comparison between the Psion and the Wizard needs to take this into account. Thus Psion's point on the Wizard having more spells and thus being MUCH more versatile still stands. Your feelings in the matter concerning the riches needed to obtain these spells are not a valid counterpoint.

On the matter of balance between the wizard, sorcerer and the psion after reading everyone’s statement it seems to me it's rather balanced. Thanee has a point in pure one-shot blasting power the Psion kineticist as an edge but that doesn't make the class as is unbalanced. It only makes the player who makes full use of said fact a munchkin. A Psion has much more options than simply being a full on, all or nothing nuke. It can be, but as Psion (the staffreviewer not the class ) shows it wouldn't be grossly more effective nor would it be fun (not to me anyways).

Just my 0,02 cents


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## Lord Pendragon (Sep 9, 2004)

Allanon said:
			
		

> The fact that the wizard has the fortune to pay for it makes this point moot. Character wealth is an inherent part of the D&D d20 system. Thus any credible comparison between the Psion and the Wizard needs to take this into account. Thus Psion's point on the Wizard having more spells and thus being MUCH more versatile still stands. Your feelings in the matter concerning the riches needed to obtain these spells are not a valid counterpoint.



Actually, I think Thanee's point is valid, for exactly the reasons you mentioned.  When comparing classes, you have to take wealth into account.  If it costs the wizard 100,000gp to gain these extra spells used in the comparison, then you need to give the psion an extra 100,000gp worth of gear, then make the comparison.  You can't compare an unequipped psion to a wizard using up half his wealth, have them come up equal, and call that balanced.

Note that 100,000gp is a made-up number, and I don't know how the balance plays out, but Thanee's point about the gp cost of a wizard's versatility is anything but moot.


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## Allanon (Sep 9, 2004)

Lord Pendragon said:
			
		

> Actually, I think Thanee's point is valid, for exactly the reasons you mentioned.  When comparing classes, you have to take wealth into account.  If it costs the wizard 100,000gp to gain these extra spells used in the comparison, then you need to give the psion an extra 100,000gp worth of gear, then make the comparison.  You can't compare an unequipped psion to a wizard using up half his wealth, have them come up equal, and call that balanced.
> 
> Note that 100,000gp is a made-up number, and I don't know how the balance plays out, but Thanee's point about the gp cost of a wizard's versatility is anything but moot.



 True, but in here own comparison between the classes she herself gave the Psion more items than either the sorcerer or the wizard, thus my conclusion that her point is moot.

You are right though about wealth being an essential part in the comparison, unless some really shows everyone the complete picture of all three classes, I doubt this 'debate' will be resolved anytime soon.


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## Testament (Sep 9, 2004)

It seems to me that people here are focussing on only one element of the Psion: blatty death.  And I agree, in that department the Savant (I prefer that name) is rivalled only by the Warmage.

This is the problem though.  Like the warmage, the Psychokinteic emphasising Psion has limited capacity to do anyhing else.  They can't teleport the party.  They can't fly.  They can't polymorph.  They lack almost any kind of support casting ability (which is all found on the other Disciplinary lists).  And much of it is self only!  Focusing solely on the considerable ability of the Psion to blow stuff up, and then calling it broken based on that is not a fair comparison.  But that is the focus of this thread I guess.

Yes, Augmentation is very nice.  Not all damage dealing powers boost the DC when you aug though.  And the psion loses out majorly to the Wizard in one other respect: Metamagic/Psionics.  The Psion can only apply one metapsionic feat at a time, burning up more of their precious PPs in the process.  And if they want to do 2, then they have to blow a feat in order to get a Psicrystal, and ANOTHER to enable it to hold focus.  2 Feats is not cheap by any standard.  And I don't know about you, but that maximised magic missile plus a quickened fireball combo is always nice.

Taking a look at Psionic ranges, I see an awful lot of "short" listed, and even more "ray".  Ranged touches don't always hit, and Energy Ball is not the only power people will fling.  There is the issue of collateral damage.

Here's where the Psion's big weakness comes into play.  Lack of flexibility.  The requirement to focus on a discipline, thus losing out on other forms of spellcastin support is the first kick.  The keying of a great many psionic abilities to focus is another.  And before you bring up Psionic Meditation, that still costs you a feat, and not everyone will automatically play human for that sweet sweet bonus feat!

Armour wearing capability, and silent still spells automatically?  Armour still costs a feat (man, those slots are getting thin on the ground right about now!), and lack of VSM on the description is a false positive.  People still know when you're slinging mojo around from the displays.

Are Psions better than Sorcs as shelldrags?  Probably, but then again, Sorc is one of the most underpowered classes in the PHB.  And they can do more than just blow stuff up, which is more than can be said for a Kineticist.  Psions require a lot of planning to build well, the comparatively small number of powers known, the keying of so many nice abilities to feats, and the management of PP make them a challenge to run.  If you go auging willy-nilly, that tank gets dry REAL fast.

Damn this is a long post. I'll shut up and return you to your regular programming: Thanee vs Psion!


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## Psion (Sep 9, 2004)

Lord Pendragon said:
			
		

> Actually, I think Thanee's point is valid, for exactly the reasons you mentioned.  When comparing classes, you have to take wealth into account.




Sure. But Thannee awarded himself a 36,000 GP item in his inherent analysis of characters able to make a torc. Characters on both sides of the balance sheet have access to their wealth.


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## Taren Seeker (Sep 9, 2004)

A number of people have posted that Psions can be better artillery than sorc/wizards.

So what?

Just because Arcanists *used* to be the kings of damage dealing doesn't mean that they had to stay that way. Psionics creates a new paradigm that can change class roles. With a Psion in the party the Wizard doesn't need to focus on offense as much, so he can focus on the psion's weaknesses: Party support and general utility. (Fly, Invis, stat buffing, Heroism, etc etc etc).

That's a good thing.

BTW, anecdote here: I played a 14th level Kineticist in a combat heavy adventure, 3 big fights before we rested. I was buffed to the gills and finished the day with 17 PP. That's with spending several rounds each combat just watching and only stepping in when someone was getting into trouble. ie: doing a big softening power (overchanneled Energy Wave/Missile, or Astral Construct) in the first round to give the rest of the party a decisive advantage then staying on overwatch. Oh and yes I had the Torc of uberness or whatever Thanee calls it so I would have been tapped without that. The fights probably averaged 3-4 rounds.

I am building a Psion cohort right now for my fighter and while looking at powers I keep thinking about making her a mage instead. SOO many useful buffs are Personal only.


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## Allanon (Sep 9, 2004)

Taren Seeker said:
			
		

> ...BTW, anecdote here: I played a 14th level Kineticist in a combat heavy adventure, 3 big fights before we rested. I was buffed to the gills and finished the day with 17 PP. That's with spending several rounds each combat just watching and only stepping in when someone was getting into trouble. ie: doing a big softening power (overchanneled Energy Wave/Missile, or Astral Construct) in the first round to give the rest of the party a decisive advantage then staying on overwatch. *Oh and yes I had the Torc of uberness or whatever Thanee calls it so I would have been tapped without that*....




Then shouldn't this discussion about the overpoweredness of the psion revolve around this "Torc of Überness", it seems to be at the root of this problem .


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## Psion (Sep 9, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Nope, I just add what you are leaving out, nothing else. Comparing damage only (like Scion does, too) is not meaningful, as it ignores the rest of the picture.




As I said last time, I am not comparing damage only. But pure damage output, and taking into account caps, is a figure that DOES bear on the situation.



> Remember the Mystic Theurge? Much more spells per day than a sorcerer and all of them are of lower levels. This example shows quite effectively, that the above is most certainly true. While the low level spells are not useless they are simply not as useful as the high level ones and that even if you rack two of those together.




Of course they are not useless. But they are not irrelevant, either. In fact, IME, they remain highly relevant.



> What does it help the sorcerer to have all these damage dice, if they cannot be brought to bear in a situation where it counts?




Again, your assumption, not mine. And IME, false.



> Yes, and this tactic still reduces the number (and thus breadth) of instantly available spells. It's still probably the best way to go for a wizard, but it's not like it would give them the flexibility of spontaneous casting in a situation where resting simply isn't possible.




Okay, you are really making me repeat myself. The fact that a wizard will have more spells and has a mechanism to access just the spell out of many more spells is a factor that cannot be ignored.



> Nope, it doesn't show anything. That's why I blithely throw it out as irrelvant. It is.




I see we have no basis for communication then. Further, it seems to me that you are in stark denial of relevant and pertinent facts bearing on the very topic of this post.



> If you don't compare on a fair level, of course things do not look like they really are.




And you do not perceive that you are the one not comparing on a fair level by dismissing the facts on how much damage a sorcerer can do owing to the fact that a sorcerer gets free damage scaling?



> You only add in the potency for the sorcerer and ignore pretty much everything for the psion, by just adding up their power points as damage dice. Like the fact how many of those can be brought to bear in a single action and how often this can be done, more often than the sorcerer could ever dream of.




Which is really only pertinent if you play by the "one dungeon room and then stop for tea and crumpets" model of play.



> So the Mystic Theurge is MUCH, MUCH more powerful as a spellcaster, since adding up their spell slots this way is even higher, eh?




A quick search will reveal that at higher levels (MT 8-10 or so), yes , this factor makes MTs modestly overpowered, when coupled with their unprecedented flexibility and synergy between spell lists.


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## Taren Seeker (Sep 9, 2004)

Nah not broken. 36k feels right. Remember that when you are an augmenter you are more likely to do fewer large manifestations rather than many small ones which limits the savings further. It essentially acts as the +1 caster level Ioun stone form the DMG, better than some ways and worse in others.


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## Thanee (Sep 9, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> Sure. But Thannee awarded himself a 36,000 GP item in his inherent analysis of characters able to make a torc. Characters on both sides of the balance sheet have access to their wealth.



 That's no real problem, I just put it in, since I assume it a reasonable piece of equipment at that level. Since I used only fully augmented powers it doesn't even factor in that bad. Just remove it from the calculations, doesn't make such a big difference. The comparison doesn't really tap the vast power of the torque (altho at 36k it's at least somewhat ok, not really appropriately costed IMHO, but not as bad as to get a headache over it).

 Bye
 Thanee


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## Shadowdweller (Sep 9, 2004)

> I like psions and psionics. I feel that, for the most part, the XPH is very well balanced with core material. The only reason this is a major issue for me is because of A) play style, as described above, and B) because it doesn't sit right with me that there's a class capable of out-performing the arcane casters when it comes to offensive mystical abilities.



 Just be careful not to confuse direct damage spells/powers with overall offensive capability.

I repeat my earlier statement: Despite augmentation possibilities and energy type choices, spells are by and large more far-reaching and versatile than psionics.  Of course, since this is qualitative, it requires comparison and anecdote rather than numbers.


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## Psion (Sep 9, 2004)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Wow, people feel strongly about this. Didn't mean to start a screaming match here. :\
> 
> I'm realizing what _part_ of my problem is, and that's playing style. This is one case where the "back to the dungeon" balance of 3E doesn't work for me.




Hey, that's cool. I have said in other threads that balance analyzed without benefit of looking at your playstyle is pretty much meaningless. In fact, I consider many decisions made by the design team rather pointless to my game, for they assume a player rather more minmaxy than any of my players.

I really don't expect to convince Thanee. I do, however, worry about him "posioning the well", as it were, and have resolved not to let him have an unanswered point, and minimize the chance that some DM who doesn't have the benefit of all the facts take his points seriously and use it as a reason to prevent his poor players from using a rules set that is, in fact, not all that Thanee cracks it up to be.

I would also point out that I am also not sold on the "back to the dungeon" as a guiding philosophy (thus my loathing of "pokemounts"), but I still have some hairy fights. That said, my stronger emphasis on problem-solving scenarios makes the wizard even more appealing.


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## Thanee (Sep 9, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> s I said last time, I am not comparing damage only. But pure damage output, and taking into account caps, is a figure that DOES bear on the situation.



 You are comparing a sorcerer with fully scaled up damage against a psion removed of every advantage they have (most importantly the flexibility (both in their known powers and their free application of PP), really).


  A 10th level fighter can do two swings per round (one damage die each), a day has a lot of rounds... 

 Still a sorcerer beats the fighter in raw damage output, since they can unleash a higher potiential in a shorter amount of time (and for this reason only).

  The psion is the next step up. They can unleash even more potential in a short amount of time.

 But they do not have to, just like the sorcerer can use lower level spells (which you said yourself are best used for spells which do not scale (and thus cap out), like Fly), they can achieve things with manifestations, which are not at their maximum. Their are plenty powers, which do not even need to be (or can be) augmented and still have their full effect. Did I consider these? Nope, and they will only further increase the discrepancy between the classes. By doing this a psion has a very good endurance, too.



> And you do not perceive that you are the one not comparing on a fair level by dismissing the facts on how much damage a sorcerer can do owing to the fact that a sorcerer gets free damage scaling?



 Yes, indeed. I do not consider it fair to include all advantages of scaling and to remove all the advantages of augmentation. This is exactly what your example did. It's pointless and meaningless.



> A quick search will reveal that at higher levels (MT 8-10 or so), yes , this factor makes MTs modestly overpowered, when coupled with their unprecedented flexibility and synergy between spell lists.



  At epic levels? 

 And the point where the Mystic Theurge actually becomes very good is the point where they reach 9th level spells, since then they have something in addition to what other casters have available. That is for one reason mainly, because there are no 10th level spells. Prior to that they suffer from their lack in potency throughout their whole carreer (tho they are still useful characters, just not in the power department). But this is something unique for the Mystic Theurge, it doesn't apply here.

 15th level sorcerers (to pick one of the examples, the general idea is true for all, tho) do not gain 6th level spells in addition to psions, they do not even gain 5th level, what they have is an amount of 1st through 4th level spells (most of which are already far beyond their cap), which they have after trading their 5th-7th level spells one for one against fully augmented 8th level powers _each_. And _each_ of those 5th-7th level spells had a weaker effect in the first place.

 And this is not even damage dice only, it's just looking at the level of the spells/powers for a general effect (full scaling versus full augmentation), which certainly is very compareable.

  Bye
  Thanee


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## Thanee (Sep 9, 2004)

Shadowdweller said:
			
		

> I repeat my earlier statement: Despite augmentation possibilities and energy type choices, spells are by and large more far-reaching and versatile than psionics. Of course, since this is qualitative, it requires comparison and anecdote rather than numbers.



 BTW, this is something I actually think is a proper argument (unlike Psion's silly (sorry ) damage dice example), which - just to mention this again - I also bring up myself in comparison (the better base spellcasters have with the spells they pick from, and their much better party buffs), at least twice or thrice in this thread already.

 It's also true, that this is very hard to evaluate, especially since the power list is certainly not finite and will be expanded over time.

 Bye
 Thanee


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## Allanon (Sep 9, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> You are comparing a sorcerer with fully scaled up damage against a psion removed of every advantage they have (most importantly the flexibility (both in their known powers and their free application of PP), really).
> 
> 
> A 10th level fighter can do two swings per round (one damage die each), a day has a lot of rounds...
> ...



 “Look this isn't an argument, it's just contradiction. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a definite proposition... it's an intellectual process... contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.” - Thanee's Sig.


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## Thanee (Sep 9, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> I do, however, worry about him "poisoning the well", as it were, and have resolved not to let him have an unanswered point, and minimize the chance that some DM who doesn't have the benefit of all the facts take his points seriously and use it as a reason to prevent his poor players from using a rules set that is, in fact, not all that Thanee cracks it up to be.



 Wow! Your opinion of the readers here on EN World is rather low, huh?

 What a slap in the face for all the poor people, who you declare are not mature enough to make up their own opinion, so they need you to make up an opinion for them.

 Bye
 Thanee


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## Thanee (Sep 9, 2004)

Allanon said:
			
		

> “Look this isn't an argument, it's just contradiction. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a definite proposition... it's an intellectual process... contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.” - Thanee's Sig.



 Yeah, and I know at least one person, that has not understood the meaning... 

 Bye
 Thanee


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## Allanon (Sep 9, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Yeah, and I know at least one person, that has not understood the meaning...
> 
> Bye
> Thanee



 I hope so, but do you know yourself well enough to actually do something with that information


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## Plane Sailing (Sep 9, 2004)

Hi all,

Please avoid the temptation to disparage any individuals. Robust dissection of ideas and stuff is fine, but nobody wins if a thread starts to descend into personal 'attacks' or denegration of an individual, as we all know.

Thanks,

Plane Sailing
(moderator)


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## Nail (Sep 9, 2004)

Keep it civil, folks.  Please.


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## Thanee (Sep 9, 2004)

Indeed.

 BTW, luckily I am not easily offended, not even by someone who says basically, that I would willingly post false information to prevent others from having fun, which certainly is not true. 

 In fact, I try to make objective statements, looking at things from different perspectives and even take the time to make up examples to underline my arguments, which you do not have to agree with, but at least trying to understand them isn't too much asked for, or is it?

 Also replying for the sole reason to "not leave a point unanswered" (which implies there is no interest in argueing the point itself) isn't exactly nice, either, as is quoting an entire post which contains multiple arguments and just writing "no" (basically) under it with no explanation given.

 Just for your information. 

 Bye
 Thanee


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## Allanon (Sep 9, 2004)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> 
> Please avoid the temptation to disparage any individuals. Robust dissection of ideas and stuff is fine, but nobody wins if a thread starts to descend into personal 'attacks' or denegration of an individual, as we all know.
> 
> ...



 Whoops, my bad. I'll just slink away to another topic and let everyone fight this one out, I've made my point in previous posts and let's just forget the last two for which I apologize.


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## Allanon (Sep 9, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Indeed.
> 
> BTW, luckily I am not easily offended, not even by someone who says basically, that I would willingly post false information to prevent others from having fun, which certainly is not true.
> 
> ...



 No but what you are doing is trying to 'win' this argument, like it's a game. Most of your posts center arround the fact that other people examples are worthless compared to yours and saying it in such a fashion as to make it look like it's the most stupid thing there is. I'm not saying that you do not have (semi)-valid points but disregarding other peoples valid point or counterpoints because of them without really addressing them does not help this discussion nor does it add weight to your statements.

Your demeaning attitude to other people reactions to your posts is what's so incredibly grating, add to that the fact that you're trying to pass yourself off as the victim only makes matters worse. One thing you should do wel to remember is that a smilie does not excuse a demeaning reply, see the quote below for example. There are numerous examples like this one riddles throughout your posts in this topic.



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> <snip>BTW, this is something I actually think is a proper argument (unlike Psion's silly (sorry ) damage dice example), which - just to mention this again<snip>




P.S. Darn got sucked in again. Oke then this will be my last post in this topic


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## Psion (Sep 9, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> BTW, luckily I am not easily offended, not even by someone who says basically, that I would willingly post false information to prevent others from having fun, which certainly is not true.




Oh, I don't beleive you THINK you are willingly posting information you beleive to be false.

I do beleive, nonetheless, that the conclusions you draw are false, and you could only come to them by ignoring points that contradict your stance.

I, OTOH, have not ignored your point buy took them into consideration in my argument. And what did you do with the resulting argument? Dismissed it out of hand.

So long as an objective onlooker can see that, I am content.



> In fact, I try to make objective statements




You mean such objective and sterling analyses as my example is "silly"?



> Also replying for the sole reason to "not leave a point unanswered" (which implies there is no interest in argueing the point itself)




It does? No it does not. Quite the contrary. It implies that I give an objective onlooker reason to doubt every one of your points by underscoring points that your analyses miss.

If that's not nice, I wonder why you are here.



> isn't exactly nice, either, as is quoting an entire post which contains multiple arguments and just writing "no" (basically) under it with no explanation given.




Well, Thanee, once it gets to the point of repeating points that you have simply ignored in your reply, doing a point-by-point rebuttal to a post full of points that have already been answered is not exactly productive. Having lived through usenet, I personally prefer to avoid that kind of frustration, and would understand why someone else could do the same.


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## Psion (Sep 9, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> What a slap in the face for all the poor people, who you declare are not mature enough to make up their own opinion, so they need you to make up an opinion for them.




Oy. Again, please stop trying to put words in my mouth.

Picking apart your numbers to see why they don't reflect reality is something that I don't expect the average poster to do. I hardly consider giving them a factual analysis of what I see you are missing as insulting to the onlooker.

I remember talking to one of my former players who took some CoC d20 basher's emotive and baseless acusations that CoC d20 is just "hack-and-slash Cthuhlu mythos" at face value. Well meaning and smart people often take ill-founded comments they don't have time to investigate at face value.


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## Lonely Tylenol (Sep 9, 2004)

Not to mention, we have many people who harbor a bias against psionics from previous editions (including 3.0) and who might like the 3.5 version if they picked it up a read it, but have not yet done so.  If they see people flaming the 3.5 rules, they're likely to throw up their hands and give up on psionics, even though they may have approved of the ruleset if they actually went about reading it.

It's not that Psion thinks Thanee is going to warp their impressionable minds, it's that he's worried about 3.5 psionics developing an undeserved bad rap, precisely because it must live down the bad rap that previous editions had, and people are likely to be suspicious.

The issue Psion has seems to be that Thanee is going to scare off people who might pick up and read the rules before they do so, not after they do so.  After, we can assume they've considered it and are intelligent enough to decide what's best for their campaign.


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## Thanee (Sep 9, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> I, OTOH, have not ignored your point buy took them into consideration in my argument. And what did you do with the resulting argument? Dismissed it out of hand.



 Well, I havn't actually seen many arguments yet. The example, which I refered to as "silly" is one thing, but that is mostly since you have repeatedly ignored the argument I made as to why I think this example has no meaning for the comparison.

 And I can say it again, you cannot give the sorcerer free scaling in a comparison and then compare to the psion, who has been removed of all the free stuff they get. This is a comparison on different levels, taking into account the biggest advantage of one side and basically no advantage of the other side.



> Well, Thanee, once it gets to the point of repeating points that you have simply ignored in your reply, ...



 What did I ignore then?

 That I neglected the cost of augmentation in my comparison, as you mentioned? Has been answered. I have included the maximum possible cost. Worst case for the psion.

   What else?

 You repeatedly said, I'd neglect "something" there, but what this "something" is, you fail to name (or I have somehow actually missed it, which is certainly also a possibility  ).

  You accuse me of "stacking the deck", but you don't say how.

  You mentioned "factual analysis" up there... can you give me some post numbers, where you put up that "factual analysis"?

 Your opinion is not a fact, as much as you might like it to be, likewise, my opinion is not a fact, of course, this goes both ways. But I have stated facts, where I base my opinion on. You just repeatedly mention the cost of augmentation to be worth pretty much everything psions get over sorcerers (which is a damn whole lot) with no facts (which I am aware of) to back this up.

 So, if you be so kind and go back and point me to the parts I have missed in your opinion, I'll gladly go back and re-consider them. 

   Bye
   Thanee


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## Thanee (Sep 9, 2004)

Allanon said:
			
		

> No but what you are doing is trying to 'win' this argument, like it's a game.



  Uhm... actually, no.

  I am convinced of my opinion, that's all.

 And I am still of the opinion, that I am pretty much the only person here, who tries to look at the whole picture and not just a fraction thereof.

 Whenever I am presented a convincing proof, that my argument is false, I give in, always, happened a few times in the past. I'm not a bad loser at all, if that's what you read into my posts, if you knew me better, you'd certainly know that this is true. 



> ...but disregarding other peoples valid point or counterpoints because of them without really addressing them does not help this discussion nor does it add weight to your statements.



 I actually try to answer them the first time they come up, but when they simply get repeated as an answer, I just point to the above.

 If you can show me, where I have done this, as you say, please, I'll gladly see, if I have actually missed something. 

  Bye
  Thanee


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## Psion (Sep 9, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Well, I havn't actually seen many arguments yet. The example, which I refered to as "silly" is one thing, but that is mostly since you have repeatedly ignored the argument I made as to why I think this example has no meaning for the comparison.




The only rebuttal you offered is that it is "irrelevant" and that the sorcerer "won't be able to use them all." The former was unqualified, so there is no rebuttal to offer there other than pointing such out.

That the sorcerer would not be able to use all -- or a significant portion of -- their damge dealing capability is an assessment that does not match my experience in reality. And I stated that as well, rather early on. Just how is this "ignoring the argument you made"?



> And I can say it again, you cannot give the sorcerer free scaling in a comparison and then compare to the psion, who has been removed of all the free stuff they get.




I have done no such thing. Free damage scaling is an arcane casters boon. Psions have their own boons. At no point have I failed to recognize that one or the other has strengths.


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## Scion (Sep 9, 2004)

I would like to point out that with a sufficient spellcraft the wizard can horde any number of spell books taken off of victims, bought from various places, stolen, borrowed from a buddy, whatever and be able to memorize any spell out of them.

If the dm uses enemy wizards now and then, and somehow the wizard in the party is able to 'aquire' their spellbook(s) then any spells that they did not already know are suddenly at their disposal, effectively for free.

This could mean that having multiple hundreds of different spells at ones disposal is not completely out of the question. Depending on the campaign it might even be likely.

Some of these may even be new spells that the casters dreamed up (dm made up) whereas the psion has a much harder time getting new powers (they have to research it themselves or maybe get some info from a buddy, but still have to use one of their precious slots).


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## Thanee (Sep 9, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> The only rebuttal you offered is that it is "irrelevant" and that the sorcerer "won't be able to use them all." The former was unqualified, so there is no rebuttal to offer there other than pointing such out.



 Oh, I'm quite sure I have written more than that on this topic. 

 I have stated, that the absolute number of castings is not relevant, but rather the effect generated by them and the time by which this effect can be generated. The effect of the psions fully augmented manifestations is with no doubt higher than the effect of an equal number of fully scaled sorcerer castings (taken from top level going down). That should be obvious.

 I have then stated, that what the sorcerer has left over (the psion has nothing left at this point) is roughly equal in effect to what the psion already has done on top of the sorcerer. So their total effect might be similar, but because the psion can unleash it faster, this is an advantage to the psion.

 And this only takes fully augmented powers into consideration, something the psion is not forced to do, they can also distribute their power in a much wider way, going for a huge amount of low level manifestations or a fairly good amount of moderate level manifestations. Still, if they go for the highest possible augmentation level, which - again - is the worst case in terms of casting endurance, they do not come out that much behind the sorcerer.

 And this is why I think the cost for augmentation, while it is a fine balance for the flexibility and the lack of caps is not enough to also balance the plethora of additional advantages psions enjoy (skills, feats, much more "spells" known, faster power level access, lack of components, "free" metamagic, etc /or/ spontaneous manifestation instead of most (not all) of the aforementioned advantages).

 There are still other factors to consider, which I also mentioned, like the weaker base to pick powers from or the weaker party buffs, also compared to the wizard they can only get close to the number of spells known, and if the wizard is willing to spend large amounts of money, then the wizard will be able to have like twice the number of spells known (versus effective spells known, which is more than powers known), probably. But then again, the additional spells the wizard knows, will most likely only come into play in rare occasions, which should be obvious, unless a wizard deliberately picks rarely useful spells over commonly useful ones. And do not forget here, that the spellcasting/manifestation comparison was done against the sorcerer, not the wizard, the wizard is even weaker here with less spells per day than a sorcerer.

 Most of the above factors have not been addressed in your example, so how can it be relevant?



> I have done no such thing. Free damage scaling is an arcane casters boon. Psions have their own boons. At no point have I failed to recognize that one or the other has strengths.



 Okay. Then how does it figure in your comparison (how the scaling figures in is kinda obvious, but how did you figure in the psion's boons by multiplying their PP by 1 to get to the number of damage dice per day)?

 Bye
 Thanee


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## Thanee (Sep 9, 2004)

Scion said:
			
		

> If the dm uses enemy wizards now and then, and somehow the wizard in the party is able to 'aquire' their spellbook(s) then any spells that they did not already know are suddenly at their disposal, effectively for free.



 Nothing is for free. It is part of the treasure and as such part of the resources. So it is basically not unlike the wizard's ability to learn new spells, which he has anyways.

  Yes, it is a point to consider, but I guess it can be subsumed into the wizard's ability to learn new spells, really.

 And I always consider wizards with the Boccob's blessed book, anyways, therefore the scribing cost is not a factor (or a fixed one 12,500gp), but rather the cost to get those spells, which is more than enough, as I know very well from personal experience.



> This could mean that having multiple hundreds of different spells at ones disposal is not completely out of the question.



  Multiple hundreds! 

  Bye
  Thanee


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## Scion (Sep 9, 2004)

How much is an old spellbook worth in gp? Not much really. So if it is part of the treasure then it is an incredibly small amount of gold used towards the wizards amount.

going through 36k would probably be a huge pile of spellbooks. Good enoug then, the psion you posted had the torc, this wizard has a few hundred spells. Lets see who wins in versitility.


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## Henry (Sep 9, 2004)

I have seen the argument that a psion gets a limited power selection, and this reduces his power compared to a wizard. However, the ability to manifest an unknown power from someone else's powers, or even power stones, on the fly for no resource cost really concerns me. (See below for SRD text.)

When's the last time you saw two Sorcerers echanging spell repertoires on the fly? When's the last time you saw a Sorcerer or Wizard use a spell scroll - and KEEP the spell? When's the last time you saw a Wizard or Sorcerer knock an enemy sorcerer unconscious - and then use his powers against the enemy?!?!

What it means is that psions are not nearly as limited in repertoire as some would paint them. All they need to do is to concentrate on their powers that need immediate use, and build up their psicraft score, and they can use whatever they need at leisure! This certainly factors into the discussion on the relative power and versatility between the two.



> Manifest an Unknown Power from Another’s Powers Known
> 
> A psionic character can attempt to manifest a power from a source other than his own knowledge (usually a power stone or another willing psionic character). To do so, the character must first make contact (a process similar to addressing a power stone, requiring a Psicraft check against a DC of 15+ the level of the power to be manifested). A psionic character can make contact with only a willing psionic character or creature (unconscious creatures are considered willing, but not psionic characters under the effects of other immobilizing conditions). Characters who can’t use power stones for any reason are also banned from attempting to manifest powers from the knowledge of other psionic characters. Mental contact requires 1 full round of physical contact, which can provoke attacks of opportunity. Once contact is achieved, the character becomes aware of all the powers stored in the power stone or all the powers the other character knows up to the highest level of power the contactor knows himself.
> Next, the psionic character must choose one of the powers and make a second Psicraft check (DC 15 + the power’s level) to see if he understands it. If the power is not on his class list, he automatically fails this check.
> Upon successfully making contact with another willing psionic character or creature and learning what he can of one power in particular, the character can immediately attempt to manifest that power even if he doesn’t know it (and assuming he has power points left for the day). He can attempt to manifest the power normally on his next turn, and he succeeds if he makes one additional Psicraft check (DC 15 + the power’s level). He retains the ability to manifest the selected power for only 1 round. If he doesn’t manifest the power, fails the Psicraft check, or manifests a different power, he loses his chance to manifest that power for the day.


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## Nail (Sep 9, 2004)

The spellbook issue is _highly_ dependant on the campaign world (i.e. the DM).  

IME (player and DM), wizard spells are not incredibly easy to come up with, and many enemy spellbooks have the same old spells the party wizard has.  I can imagine, however, a DM which freely gives away lots of cool spells to the wizard.  I've never played in such a game, but I'm sure it's possible.

The scribing costs, OTOH, are not marginal --> and I think you *MUST* include "down time spent" as one of the costs.  Those days the wizard is spending are....not generally appreciated by the rest of the party.  Take that as you will. 

Just hanging on to a few enemy spell books ain't gonna cut it for the Wiz, especially at lower levels.


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## Someone (Sep 9, 2004)

Henry said:
			
		

> I have seen the argument that a psion gets a limited power selection, and this reduces his power compared to a wizard. However, the ability to manifest an unknown power from someone else's powers, or even power stones, on the fly for no resource cost really concerns me.




And me. I don´t know what they were thinking on when they wrote that rule.


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## BryonD (Sep 9, 2004)

Simple comment:

Psion's analysis is correct.

(I don't use the rule that Henry mentioned)


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## Spatula (Sep 9, 2004)

Testament said:
			
		

> This is the problem though.  Like the warmage, the Psychokinteic emphasising Psion has limited capacity to do anyhing else.  They can't teleport the party. They can't fly.



_Greater teleport_ and _overland flight_ are general powers.  _Teleport_ and _psionic fly_ are available via Expanded Knowledge if the psion really wants them.



> Yes, Augmentation is very nice.  Not all damage dealing powers boost the DC when you aug though.  And the psion loses out majorly to the Wizard in one other respect: Metamagic/Psionics.



This is very true.



> Armour wearing capability, and silent still spells automatically?  Armour still costs a feat



If you want to be munchkiny about it, a psion can wear full plate with no armor feats whatsoever.  He won't be able to succeed at any attack rolls, but so what?  That's the only penalty to not having the feats.

Even if you don't want to be a munchkin, a psion can wear leather armor, masterwork studded leather, or a mithril chain shirt at no penalty with no armor feats.



> and lack of VSM on the description is a false positive.  People still know when you're slinging mojo around from the displays.



The real benefit of silent, still, eschew materials is that you can't be stopped by being gagged, stripped, and having your hands tied.  You don't need to worry about having material/focus components in-hand when grappled.  You can be completely naked and still operate at full effectiveness.  The displays prevent "stealth casting" in theory but they can be done away with fairly easily with a Concentration check.

The lack of material/focus components does have one downside, which is that the psionic version of spells with expensive components usually carry a XP cost.


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## Spatula (Sep 9, 2004)

EDIT: double post.


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## Elder-Basilisk (Sep 9, 2004)

> Not to mention, we have many people who harbor a bias against psionics from previous editions (including 3.0) and who might like the 3.5 version if they picked it up a read it, but have not yet done so. If they see people flaming the 3.5 rules, they're likely to throw up their hands and give up on psionics, even though they may have approved of the ruleset if they actually went about reading it.
> 
> It's not that Psion thinks Thanee is going to warp their impressionable minds, it's that he's worried about 3.5 psionics developing an undeserved bad rap, precisely because it must live down the bad rap that previous editions had, and people are likely to be suspicious.
> 
> The issue Psion has seems to be that Thanee is going to scare off people who might pick up and read the rules before they do so, not after they do so. After, we can assume they've considered it and are intelligent enough to decide what's best for their campaign.




Well, color me influenced by previous editions of the psionics rules.

1e was unbalanced and unplayable.
2e was playable but unbalanced
3e was rather weak except in a few very narrow areas. (Astral Constructs had potential and Mind Blast was an encounter-destroying power).

As for 3.5e, I haven't seen it in action yet. However, having looked through the SRD, and thought about how to create a variety of different characters, I think that Thanee has the right of it: 3.5 Psionics are rather unbalanced. 

I hadn't noticed the ability to manifest powers from power stones or other psions before but that means that psions (and PsiWars) essentially have no limit on the number of non-combat powers that they can manifest. A party with two psions or even a psion and a psiwar will be exponentially more effective than a party with only one at least by mid-levels. And the ability to use power stones makes it utterly ridiculous. How much would any of you charge for an item that added a first level spell to a sorceror's list of spells known? I'd be willing to bet you'd charge more than 25gp. (Yes, I know there's a skill check but it's trivial. By 3rd level, any psion or PsyWar can take ten and automatically succeed on the check). What's worse, I don't even read any requirement that the psion actually be able to manifest powers of the level of the stored power. So a 3rd level psion with a power stone of a 2nd level power could manifest that power through the power stone. Ditto for a 3rd level PsyWar. This grants practical access to mid-long duration powers at least one level earlier than the characters would otherwise get it. With a torc of power preservation, that's two power levels earlier than access would otherwise be possible. With Overchannel and/or an orange ioun stone as well, that's potentially five levels before the psion would otherwise have access to the power. So, Psions can get consistent access to 9th level powers by 14th-15th level rather than at 17th or 18th level.

There's also a problem with pricing augmented psionic items. A dorje of augmented energy ray, for instance would be the equivalent of an energy substituted wand of polar ray at 1/8 the cost--if wands of polar ray were possible which they aren't. Leaving aside any question of how this advantages psions, etc, augmented psionic items are a UMD character's wet dream. Access to effectively 8th and 9th level powers at the price of 1st level powers and with a far easier check to activate than would otherwise be possible for powers/spells of level 5+. If items of augmented powers were priced based on their effective level rather than their native level this loophole wouldn't exist but, as it stands, it's pretty darn massive.

As to the rest, it seems pretty clear to me that psions are only balanced in an environment where pp output is actually limited. Since very very few adventures seem to really place time at a premium, a psion who can blow through all of his pps in one or two encounters worth of maximally powered abilities (chosen on the fly from a very wide selection) and then rest to regain the spent pps is at a HUGE advantage over sorcerors, wizards, and clerics. At mid-levels, the lack of party buffs like haste may be telling, however, if one is comparing spell/power lists, the number of powers with built in quickening (or better yet, Immediate) mechanisms more than makes up for it. The psionic energy resistance powers, for instance are so dramatically better than all magical ones (with the possible exception of Energy Buffer which is neither core nor 3.5) that direct power/spell comparison is futile.


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## Dinkeldog (Sep 9, 2004)

And yet in practice, I've yet to see a psion actually out-blast a wizard.  I have yet to see them come close.  The psions seem to perform better when they choose a more subtle specialty and work toward that.


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## Dinkeldog (Sep 9, 2004)

Oh, and you can only access a power stone one time, and then the power is gone.  It's essentially a scroll.


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## Psion (Sep 9, 2004)

Yes. You notice in the description that where it talks about manifesting a power normally, it stops talking about the stone (not to mention the title of the section). I beleive the beginning part is just talking about addressing and using a stone.

I certainly agree the early mentions of the stone make it sound that way. But manifesting a power from a stone with your own PP would be too good to be true!


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## Scion (Sep 9, 2004)

Elder-Basilisk said:
			
		

> I hadn't noticed the ability to manifest powers from power stones or other psions before but that means that psions (and PsiWars) essentially have no limit on the number of non-combat powers that they can manifest.




Of course, the wizard can do the same. Generally at a much lower gp cost as well.

Also, pearls of power work much, much better than the psionic equivalent. Plus, rings of wizardry are golden for sorcs 



			
				Elder-Basilisk said:
			
		

> A dorje of augmented energy ray, for instance would be the equivalent of an energy substituted wand of polar ray at 1/8 the cost--if wands of polar ray were possible which they aren't.




Dorje of energy ray boosted up to 8th level? impossible.

However, depending on how you read the dorje information either an energy ray that is maxed out in augmentation would either cost 4500gp (manifestor level 6) or 11,250gp (manifestor level 6) or 13,500gp (manifestor level 6).

As energy ray is a first level power it cannot be augmented higher than manifestor level 6.

None of those costs are exactly cheap. Although the first (and cheapest) is probably the most likely to be true.

Still, 4500gp for 50 charges of a 6d6 ray attack up to 40 feet isnt too bad. Compared with a wand of magic missile (caster level 5, 3750gp) deals 1d4+1 three times as a force effect and a range of 150' with no attack roll needed.

It is all about the tradeoffs, sometimes one is much better than the other.


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## Sorren (Sep 9, 2004)

This is still going huh? I guess I'll chime in with my two cents. Or a dime. This is going to be long…

*”Psions” do not compare well with Sorcerers*

Psions are forced to specialize. You can't compare a "psion" to anything because a "psion" doesn't exist. You want to compare a Kineticist to a Sorcerer, you need to keep in mind the fact that the Kineticist is focused on dealing damage and manipulating energy while the sorcerer is a little more open ended.

It'd be like comparing an Evocation Specialist against a Sorcerer. Who is more powerful there?

Also, don't plan on giving him many other powers like Astral Construct or Metamorphosis unless you take into account the fact that he will have to wait an additional two levels and spend a feat to get them. 

But he gets bonus feats. This is true. However, those feats are needed for other things if the psion ever wants to make extensive use of metapsionics or anything that requires focus.

*Damage is the Only Common Ground.*

To compare the two, the only true real basis for analysis is damage output. The usefulness of other powers and spells is too dependent on other factors such as the DM's style, the environment, etc, and therefore can’t be taken into consideration here.

In general, damage output is the only thing the two classes can really agree on and is typically the first thing that causes the "overpowered" flag to be waved. Thus, it becomes the "measuring stick" that I’ll be using.

*Number of Spells Cast vs. Number of Powers Manifested*

Example characters:

10th level Human Kineticist (Int 16) vs. 10th level Human Sorcerer (Cha 16)
For the purposes of comparison, we'll assume that neither of them has access to any money or equipment.

*Psion*
Number of Powers Known: 21
Power Points: 103
Possible Conversion to Slots Configuration: 1-2 (2pps); 2-1 (3pps); 3-4 (20pps); 4-6 (42pps); 5-4 (36pps)

This is, I feel, a pretty realistic distribution of power usage for a psion. It represents a player who is concerned with trying to hit hard whenever possible, but is being just a little conservative. In this example, he gets 4 uses of his highest level powers.

*Sorcerer*
Number of Spells Known: 0-9; 1-5; 2-4; 3-3; 4-2; 5-1  (Total: 24)
Spells Castable per Day: 0-6; 1-7; 2-7; 3-7; 4-5; 5-3
Slot Conversion to Power Points: 3*+7+21+35+35+21 = 122
* I counted 0 level spells as a half power point.

This assumes no augmentation is being done. So as you can see above, the psion gets an additional use of his highest, and next to highest, level powers each day when compared to a sorcerer, but severely lacks in lower level manifestations.

Let's look at the lower level stuff. Assuming there is no augmentation done, the low level psionics pale in comparison to low level spells due to augmentation. If the psion decides to augment, he can, but he is going to loose use of some of those higher level "slots".

In the end, I feel that if you are only looking at number of powers vs. number of spells, they are about equal. The psion has the option to blow more points up front, but players in most situations will manifest about an equal number of their highest level powers and next highest level powers as well as a few lower level powers for utility. This is represented in the PPs to slot conversion above.

The sorcerer is much better over time. While the psion has the ability to blow a lot of power in a short amount of time, the sorcerer can use up his high level slots, and still fall back on fairly potent low level powers. The psion will have a few more high level "slots" but when they are gone, he is pretty much tapped out.

This is where the DMs gaming style comes into play. In a situation where the character must face multiple encounters before he can rest, the sorcerer is going to fair well. He'll probably blow two to four high level slots per battle, but when he runs out, his low level powers are still effective. Unless he has Empower Spell…. we’ll get to that.

The psion will likely dominate the battlefield during the first encounter if he thinks he can rest. If he knows he will have more encounters later, he is going to either hold back his power and thus spend a few rounds playing the part of cheerleader while occasionally tossing out a potent strike, or he'll be a walking artillery platform for two encounters at the most and be a spectator for the rest.

So in conclusion, if the party is in a position to rest after every battle, the psion is more potent. He can blow all of his points on his highest level powers, or spend all of his points augmenting, and thus rule the battlefield.

If the party is going to face multiple encounters, the sorcerer has the advantage. He can burn through his higher level spells in the first few encounters, and still be able to play an important roll with low level spells in the later encounters.

*Damage Dealing – The Contest*

So a psion (kineticist) and a sorcerer decide to settle the matter once and for all. The challenge: Who can deal the most damage? (Using average damage with no metapsionics or metamagic.) I hope my math and strategies are right here...

*The Psion*

Round 1: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 40 points of Fire Damage
Round 2: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 40 points of Fire Damage
Round 3: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 40 points of Fire Damage
Round 4: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 40 points of Fire Damage
Round 5: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 40 points of Fire Damage
Round 6: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 40 points of Fire Damage
Round 7: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 40 points of Fire Damage
Round 8: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 40 points of Fire Damage
Round 9: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 40 points of Fire Damage
Round 10: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 40 points of Fire Damage
Round 11: Energy Missle (3pps); 3d6+3 = 12 points of Fire Damage

Total: 412 points of damage over 11 rounds


*The Sorcerer*

Round 1: Cone of Cold (5th level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Cold Damage
Round 2: Cone of Cold (5th level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Cold Damage
Round 3: Cone of Cold (5th level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Cold Damage
Round 4: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage
Round 5: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage
Round 6: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage
Round 7: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage
Round 8: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage
Round 9: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage
Round 10: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage
Round 11: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage

Subtotal up to this point: 324 points of damage over 11 rounds. 

The psion can deal roughly 88 more points of damage, but is completely out of power points by this point. He is now a cheerleader for the rest of the party. But let’s see what or sorcerer friend is doing…

Round 12: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage
Round 13: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage
Round 14: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage
Round 15: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage
Round 16: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage
Round 17: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage
Round 18: Shout (4th level Slot); 5d6 = 15 points of Sonic Damage + Deafened
Round 19: Shout (4th level Slot); 5d6 = 15 points of Sonic Damage + Deafened
Round 20: Shout (4th level Slot); 5d6 = 15 points of Sonic Damage + Deafened
Round 21: Shout (4th level Slot); 5d6 = 15 points of Sonic Damage + Deafened
Round 22: Shout (4th level Slot); 5d6 = 15 points of Sonic Damage + Deafened
Round 23: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 24: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 25: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 26: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 27: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 28: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 29: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 30: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 1 point of Cold Damage
Round 31: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 1 point of Cold Damage
Round 32: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 1 point of Cold Damage
Round 33: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 1 point of Cold Damage
Round 34: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 1 point of Cold Damage
Round 35: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 1 point of Cold Damage

Subtotal: 309 points of damage over the next 24 rounds and a lot of enemies are deafened.

Total: 633 points of damage over 35 rounds.

Of course, this is an extreme example of damage dealing gone crazy, but we can learn something from this. A sorcerer is less than 3 fireballs away from dealing the same amount of damage as the psion in the first 11 rounds. In addition, the slots the sorcerer used were not his highest level. He has a lot of potential left regarding non-damage dealing spells.

After the psion was dead in the water, the sorcerer still had all of his 4th level slots left. If he stopped concentrating on dealing pure damage, those 4th level slots would be much more effective. Even concentrating purely on damage, he is able to do another 309 points of damage before he joins the psion on the sidelines. Give him Empower spell, and well…. see below.

*Damage Dealing with Metapsionics & Metamagic*

So let's now take metapsionics and metamagic into consideration:

*The Psion*

Round 1: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 2: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 3: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 4: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 5: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 6: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 7: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 8: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 9: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 10: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 1: Empowered Energy Ray (1+2=3pps); 1d6+1 x 150% = 5 points of Fire Damage

Total: 425 points of damage over 11 rounds. 
This requires Empower Power and a successful check to regain focus every round which also requires an additional feat or two.

_For Reference: Maximized Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 50% = 42 points of Fire Damage (Same Result)
For Reference: Twin Energy Missle (3+6+1=10pps); 3d6+3+1d6+1 x 2 = 28 points of Fire Damage (Much Weaker Result)_

*Sorcerer*

Round 1: Empowered Fire Ball (5th level Slot); 10d6 x 150% = 45 points of Fire Damage
Round 2: Empowered Fire Ball (5th level Slot); 10d6 x 150% = 45 points of Fire Damage
Round 3: Empowered Fire Ball (5th level Slot); 10d6 x 150% = 45 points of Fire Damage
Round 4: Empowered Scorching Ray (4th level Slot); 8d6 x 150% = 36 points of Fire Damage
Round 5: Empowered Scorching Ray (4th level Slot); 8d6 x 150% = 36 points of Fire Damage
Round 6: Empowered Scorching Ray (4th level Slot); 8d6 x 150% = 36 points of Fire Damage
Round 7: Empowered Scorching Ray (4th level Slot); 8d6 x 150% = 36 points of Fire Damage
Round 8: Empowered Scorching Ray (4th level Slot); 8d6 x 150% = 36 points of Fire Damage
Round 9: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage
Round 10: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage
Round 11: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage

Total: 405 points of damage over 11 rounds. This requires the Empower Spell Feat.

At this point, the sorcerer still has 4 3rd level spells, and he hasn't touched his 2nd, 1st, or 0 level spells at all. He is 20 points behind a psion with Empower Power in average damage, but he isn't out of spells. So let's see what the sorcerer is up to while our psion sits on the bench...  

(Not wanting to shame his friend, he decides to stop using metamagic.)

Round 12: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage
Round 13: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage
Round 14: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage
Round 15: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage
Round 16: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage
Round 17: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage
Round 18: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage
Round 19: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage
Round 20: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage
Round 21: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage
Round 22: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage
Round 23: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 24: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 25: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 26: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 27: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 28: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 29: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 30: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 1 point of Cold Damage
Round 31: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 1 point of Cold Damage
Round 32: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 1 point of Cold Damage
Round 33: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 1 point of Cold Damage
Round 34: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 1 point of Cold Damage
Round 35: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 1 point of Cold Damage

That’s an additional 378 points of damage over the next 24 rounds. All while our kineticist is busy performing his favorite cheers.

Total: 783 points of damage over 35 rounds.

So the basic sorcerer can't deal as much damage as the basic kineticist in 11 rounds. However, give him the Empower Spell feat, and he is only 7 points behind the kineticist in 11 rounds and has a load of still very effective lower level spells to fall back on.

For the cost of a single feat, the 10th level sorcerer can effectively dish out an average of 378 points of damage *after* he gets done dealing only 7 points of damage less than our psion buddy over 11 rounds of constant combat.

Without Empower, the sorcerer is considerably weaker than the psion over a short amount of time. With empower, he is capable of roughly the same amount of damage in the same amount of time *and* he can continue to lay down damage *long* after the psion. 
Give the kineticist Empower Power and you only see a difference of 13 points of damage. It clearly isn't worth spending the feat if you are a psion.

[sarcasm]So is a sorcerer with empower broken?[/sarcasm]


*Other Considerations*

Feats: 

Psions get bonus feats. Sorcerers don't. We see from this test that it takes a metamagic feat to put the sorcerer on par with the psion when it comes to pure damage over a short period of time. So do we give the sorcerer a bonus feat? No. 

For the price of one feat, not only does the sorcerer equal the psion, but becomes FAR superior in that he can go much longer before he's out of the fight.

The only problem I see is that Empower Spell in this case breaks a major rule of feats. "Feats should be nice, but never necessary."

But a psion gets more than just one bonus feat. Yes, he does. However, all of those will be spent on focus related feats if he wants to use metapsionics to any degree. Or, he can use them to overcome the negative effects of being forced to specialize by selecting powers outside his specialty.

Familiar/Psicrystal:

Sorcerers get a free familiar. Psions get a bonus feat at first level that can be spent to get a psicrystal. Personally, I think this is pretty balanced. Disagree? Allow the sorcerer to swap his familiar for a bonus feat. I've been doing it in my game for years.

Armor Check Penalty:

Psions have a clear advantage here. No way to argue that. 

Componants vs. Displays:

Psions can automatically attempt to suppress their displays. Sorcerers can't go without components without the proper feats. Psions have a clear advantage here. 

*Conclusion*

Over the short term, a base psion can lay down more damage than a base sorcerer in a short amount of time. Give the sorcerer Empower Spell, and he not only matches the psion for short term damage, but can continue to deal considerable amounts of damage long after the psion has become useless.

The psion has the advantage regarding non-damage dealing issues. He can pick his element of choice on the spot while a sorcerer can't do this without a few feats. The psion also doesn't have to worry about arcane spell failure or components. 

Do these things make up for the 24 rounds he spends on the sidelines watching his sorcerer buddy continue the fight? I personally think it makes them about even. In fact, it could even be said that the sorcerer is the stronger of the two classes. Just give him Empower Spell and watch him go at it like the fireball slinging Energizer Bunny.


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## two (Sep 9, 2004)

*Fence Sitting Challenge*

Psion, Thanee:

How about this for a dumb comparison.

Take ye olde typical short published adventure.  One at random.

Plunk into this adventure ye olde iconic party, with a Wizard in one, and a Psion in the other.  i.e. 4 pc's, one of which is a Psion, and 4 pc's, one of which is a Wizard.  There are two groups, both going through this generic adventure.  Level based on the adventure picked.

Run these two parties through the combats/challenges in the adventure "theoretically," i.e. just talk through the challenges.

Give the probable results for each challege, assuming combat (if any) lasts 4 rounds.

Challenge 1 example:  "Wizard uses fly to get party over ravine."  "Psion helps string rope over ravine (if he can)"  Advantage:  Wizard?

Challenge 2 example:  "Wizard spends 4 4th level spells attacking orcs."  "Psion uses 40 PP's attacking orcs."  Advantaeg:  Psion?

Etc.

See if, in this typical adventure, there are times the party can rest between challenges; if the challenges are varied enough to take advantage of the wizard's spell selection; etc.

Just an idea, to see how they would play out in "typical adventures."

Granted, this might take a few minutes.  I would, but I don't know squat about psionics.  But I'm learning.


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## Spatula (Sep 9, 2004)

Scion, I don't see anything about limits on how high you can set the manifester level of a dorje in the XPH.  The Creating Dorjes section talks about upping the cost for an augmented power, but nothing about limiting that augmentation.


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## Psion (Sep 9, 2004)

head... swimming... from Sorren's... post.

Ahem...

two... that's actually the sort of thing I was getting at when I was talking about in my experience, a psion doesn't dominate. But really, as I have said in past balance threads (and indeed, my reply to Ari above), balance is very situation and game style sensitive.  Undoubtedly, some adventures (or campaigns, or playstyles) would favor one of the other.

Right now I am running a Shaper (amidst the rest of a party) through WLD, so I am seeing some of these things first hand. Of course, my current players are not minmaxy, so that might not help the analysis too much.


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## Spatula (Sep 9, 2004)

Sorren, your numbers are unfortunately incorrect.  You're using less-than-average damage numbers (3 instead of 3.5 for a d6 roll) which skews the results.  For example:



> Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
> Empowered Fire Ball (5th level Slot); 10d6 x 150% = 45 points of Fire Damage




But a 10-pt Empowered _energy ball_ does 8d6+8 * 1.5 damage, the average of which is 36 * 1.5 = 54 pts of cold or fire damage.
And a 10th lvl caster Empowered _fireball_ does 10d6 * 1.5 damage, the average of which is 35 * 1.5 = 52.5 pts of fire damage.
You'll note that the psion is doing *more* damage in this case, not less, although it's not a significant amount.

Also, there's the matter of saving throws.  Average damage doesn't mean much on its own, the real benchmark is what's the average damage against a specific target?  The psion's DCs will be the same or higher, which means a slightly greater amount of expected damage to his/her targets.

And you're putting area effect powers (_energy ball, fireball_) on the same damage footing as single-target powers (like _scorching ray_).

For the psion's "leftover" pts in your example, he's better off using _energy missile_ instead of _energy ray_ (and will probably have it if he knows _energy ball_, as both are kineticist-only powers).  For 3 pts, _energy ray_ requires a touch attack and does 3d6+3 to one target.  For the same pts, _energy missile_ does 3d6+3 damage to five targets, no miss chance although there is a save for half.


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## Sorren (Sep 9, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> head... swimming... from Sorren's... post.




I hope it wasn't too hard to follow. 

It boils down to this:

Saying the psion is overpowered is a knee-jerk reaction. Compare it to a sorcerer with Empower Spell as I did above and you'll see that the psion is quickly left in the dust.

This only concerns pure damage dealing however as I think any other comparisons are too dependant on the DM's style and the enviroment.


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## Sorren (Sep 9, 2004)

Spatula said:
			
		

> Sorren, your numbers are unfortunately incorrect.  You're using less-than-average damage numbers (3 instead of 3.5 for a d6 roll) which skews the results.  For example:




But you can't roll 3.5, so I went for 3.



> Also, there's the matter of saving throws.  Average damage doesn't mean much on its own, the real benchmark is what's the average damage against a specific target?  The psion's DCs will be the same or higher, which means a slightly greater amount of expected damage to his/her targets.
> 
> And you're putting area effect powers (_energy ball, fireball_) on the same damage footing as single-target powers (like _scorching ray_).
> 
> For the psion's "leftover" pts in your example, he's better off using _energy missile_ instead of _energy ray_ (and will probably have it if he knows _energy ball_, as both are kineticist-only powers).  For 3 pts, _energy ray_ requires a touch attack and does 3d6+3 to one target.  For the same pts, _energy missile_ does 3d6+3 damage to five targets, no miss chance although there is a save for half.




All good points. I didn't take saving throws and multiple targets into consideration. I purposefully went only for the numbers.

Even taking those things into account, does anyone honestly think the sorcerer's 24 more rounds of spellcasting goodness isn't important?

Personally, as I wrote it, only concentrating on the number of d6's, the sorcerer is FAR more powerful. The consideration of DCs and number of targets makes them balanced. (Or as balanced as any two classes can be.)


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## Henry (Sep 9, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> I certainly agree the early mentions of the stone make it sound that way. But manifesting a power from a stone with your own PP would be too good to be true!




I dunno - it's pretty ambiguous if they WEREN'T talking about doing the same thing to stones and people. After all, there's a whole separate entry for "proper" use of a power stone under magic items. Even without using power stones as sources, I've still never seen two sorcerers able to share abilities like this - it's an awful boost to a party to have two manifesters in some sort of gestalt hive-mind.


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## Scion (Sep 9, 2004)

Spatula said:
			
		

> Scion, I don't see anything about limits on how high you can set the manifester level of a dorje in the XPH.  The Creating Dorjes section talks about upping the cost for an augmented power, but nothing about limiting that augmentation.




hmm?

SRD:
The manifester level of a dorje cannot be more than five higher than the minimum manifester level to use the power it contains.


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## Scion (Sep 9, 2004)

Henry said:
			
		

> it's an awful boost




SRD:
Share Spellbook


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## Droid101 (Sep 9, 2004)

Sorren said:
			
		

> This is still going huh? I guess I'll chime in with my two cents. Or a dime. This is going to be long…
> 
> snip...



::applause::

Thanks for the numbers.  I'm convinced.


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## DarkJester (Sep 9, 2004)

Psion vs. Wizard and Power Scaling

Below is a comparison based on effective output if all spells per day were used to fuel combat spells versus the power points it would take a psion to do equal damage.

20th Level Wizard (26 Int)
4/6/6/6/6/5/5/5/5/4

First Level	Magic Missile 			(5d4+5)	5*6 (per day) PP
Second Level	Scorching Ray			(12d6)		12*6 PP
Third Level	Fireball			(10d6)		10*6 PP
Fourth Level	Emp Scorching Ray		(18d6)		18*6 PP
Fifth Level	Cone of Cold			(15d6)		15*5 PP
Sixth Level	Chain Lightning		(20d6)		20*5 PP
Seventh Level	Delayed Blast Fireball		(20d6)		20*5 PP
Eighth Level	Horrid Wilting			(20d8)		~26*5 PP
Ninth Level	Meteor Swarm			(24d6)		24*4 PP
Total Equivalent Power Points = 				751 Power Points
If he were a specialist =					901 Power Points

20th Level Psion (26 Int)
423 Power Points

============================= 
My thoughts:

The psion will have greater flexibility in which power to use in what situation. He will be able to pick the right spell/ element for the job. The wizard can as well, but will be forced to take sub optimal damage dealers in some situations. The psion and wizards’ spell DC’s will equal, unless the psion uses +1 DC per PP spent powers. The psion also has the drawback of having to expend his psionic focus in order to use any feat relating to his spells (power penetration, focus, metapsionics). The psion is unable to use metamagic in conjunction with any other feat without the aid of a psicrystal and appropriate feats. The psion does not have to worry about being grappled/tied down/silenced. The psion has the benefit of being more exotic – the unknown is more dangerous in my experiences. The psion has much better feat options. 

The wizard can produce a greater damage output than the psion can by using half his spell slots for damaging spells. His utility spells can be reused with the aid of spells such as Mage’s Lubrication (The name escapes me at the moment). The wizard has access to almost everything a psion does (Excluding prohibited schools, any wizard can charm, dominate, make illusions, fireball, or summon monsters). The wizard has better product support and a much greater selection of spells if we choose to bring this discussion outside of the PHB, and PsiHB. The wizard has to go through the trouble of keeping track of his spellbook and spell components. 

IMO the Wizard comes out far ahead. I do not, however, believe the psion is weak. Its versatility and relative abundance of powers known make it very useful.


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## Sorren (Sep 9, 2004)

Droid101 said:
			
		

> ::applause::
> 
> Thanks for the numbers.  I'm convinced.




 

Glad all that work wasn't for nothing. As has been mentioned above, it isn't a perfect analysis, but I think it puts to rest the "PSIONICS R BROKN!!!11!!" rant.

Different, but certainly not broken.


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## Spatula (Sep 9, 2004)

Scion: thanks.  That's in the description of dorjes in the XPH, but strangely not in the section that talks about creating dorjes.


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## Lord Pendragon (Sep 9, 2004)

Sorren said:
			
		

> Glad all that work wasn't for nothing. As has been mentioned above, it isn't a perfect analysis, but I think it puts to rest the "PSIONICS R BROKN!!!11!!" rant.



Not for me.  Not to say I'm convinced psionics _are_ broken, but your post certainly didn't convince me otherwise.

Why?  Because a comparison that relies on 35 rounds of combat is nonsensical.  IME, on average you can expect 3-4 combats a day, at 4 rounds or less each.  That means 11-16 rounds of combat or so.  And in that window, as your numbers showed, the psion is the clear leader.  It's only after you factor in the theoretical rounds 17-35 that the sorcerer catches up.  In terms of balance, only the practical matters to me.  The theoretical proves nothing.

What this thread would really benefit from would be a comparison similar to the one Scion and Elder-Basilisk gave us in the PsyWar vs. Fighter thread.  Let each person who believes one guy is stronger do a full write up, then throw the contestants against 3 specific encounters and see how they do.  Rate them separately for Versatility, Damage Dealing, etc.  That thread taught me a heck of a lot about the two classes involved.


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## Spatula (Sep 9, 2004)

Sorren said:
			
		

> But you can't roll 3.5, so I went for 3.



But you're not rolling a single die, you're rolling multiple d6's.

If you roll 2d6, chances are the total will be 7.  That's the average and the most likely result.  Not coincidentally, 7 = 3.5 * 2.

The more dice you roll, the closer to the average the total will tend to be.



> All good points. I didn't take saving throws and multiple targets into consideration. I purposefully went only for the numbers.
> 
> Even taking those things into account, does anyone honestly think the sorcerer's 24 more rounds of spellcasting goodness isn't important?



I don't disagree with your conclusion that the sorcerer is better when there are many encounters each day and the psion is better if there are few.


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## Sorren (Sep 9, 2004)

Lord Pendragon said:
			
		

> Not for me.  Not to say I'm convinced psionics _are_ broken, but your post certainly didn't convince me otherwise.
> 
> Why?  Because a comparison that relies on 35 rounds of combat is nonsensical.




Of course it is!



> IME, on average you can expect 3-4 combats a day, at 4 rounds or less each.  That means 11-16 rounds of combat or so.  And in that window, as your numbers showed, the psion is the clear leader.  It's only after you factor in the theoretical rounds 17-35 that the sorcerer catches up.  In terms of balance, only the practical matters to me.  The theoretical proves nothing.




Go back and reread my post. 

35 rounds doesn't represent 1 fight, but 35 rounds of combat without resting. It could be one HUGE fight, or 7 of realistic length. The fact that neither can get their spells/powers back without 8 hours of rest means it doesn't matter.

11 rounds is realistic for a long battle. With Empower Spell, the sorcerer can deal nearly as much damage as the psion.

5 Rounds of Combat? 
Using my example, the psion will deal roughly 200 pts of damage.
The sorcerer with Empower Spell will deal roughly 207.

Does that mean the sorcerer is broken?


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## Droid101 (Sep 9, 2004)

Spatula said:
			
		

> I don't disagree with your conclusion that the sorcerer is better when there are many encounters each day and the psion is better if there are few.



It might be hard to even convince me of this.  The psion will be able to deal more damage in that first encounter, but the sorcerer will haste his party, break the enchantment of the cleric who go turned to stone, cast fly on everyone, etc.  His spells may go further in winning the encounter than damage alone.

I think all the arguments come down to this: what style of play the DM runs.  One boss fight and rest every day means most likely, the psion will outshine everyone else (unless they are immune to spells/psionics entirely).  Many encounters in a day, or encounters that take 10 rounds or more, and unless carefully planned, the psion will run out of steam.  A little later, the sorcerer will too.

If you're going to use psionics you're going to use them.  I don't see them as overpowered at all.  And I have run a campaign from 1st to 21st level (see: Story hour).  No problems.  No PC psions, but plenty of enemy ones (of appropriate challenge level) and the PCs don't even blink.  

So, again, it boils down to DM style.  Argh!  This argument is so circular that you could roll it down a hill.


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## Psion (Sep 9, 2004)

Henry said:
			
		

> I dunno - it's pretty ambiguous if they WEREN'T talking about doing the same thing to stones and people.




It's one of two things:
1) Overpowered as written, or
2) They didn't mean stones in the last paragraph.

Either way, the difference for the purposes of my campaign is going to be negligible. In either case, Psions won't be using stones as virtual spellbooks IMC. 



> Even without using power stones as sources, I've still never seen two sorcerers able to share abilities like this - it's an awful boost to a party to have two manifesters in some sort of gestalt hive-mind.




I find the "stones" conclusion much more startling. The hive-mind thing is an interesting flavor bit, but it doesn't scream "overpowered" to me like the stones thing would. I mean it requires a friendly (or unconscious) psionic creature, and in that case, that creature could normally use the ability anyways. There might be a few cases that it is useful, but it doesn't seem as "gameable". For example, it is limited to powers on your list. To have the biggest potential share-age, you would have to have a character of the same class as a cohort or fellow party member and that would be somewhat redundant.


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## Sorren (Sep 9, 2004)

Spatula said:
			
		

> But you're not rolling a single die, you're rolling multiple d6's.
> 
> If you roll 2d6, chances are the total will be 7.  That's the average and the most likely result.  Not coincidentally, 7 = 3.5 * 2.
> 
> The more dice you roll, the closer to the average the total will tend to be.




You're right, but I doubt it'd make much difference. You're welcome to re-run the numbers, but I don't think it's worth the effort to me.

I'm tired...


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## Spatula (Sep 9, 2004)

Sorren said:
			
		

> 35 rounds doesn't represent 1 fight, but 35 rounds of combat without resting. It could be one HUGE fight, or 7 of realistic length. The fact that neither can get their spells/powers back without 8 hours of rest means it doesn't matter.



You misunderstand.  He's saying that in a typical day, the PCs are only likely to face around 16 rounds of combat *total*.  So the sorcerer's ability to out-damage the psion over the next 19 rounds will never actually come into play (in his games, at least).



> With Empower Spell, the sorcerer can deal nearly as much damage as the psion.
> 
> 5 Rounds of Combat?
> Using my example, the psion will deal roughly 200 pts of damage.
> ...



Using your numbers, the psion with empower does 210 over 5 rounds, more than the sorcerer.  But your numbers are flawed, the real numbers are 270 for the psion w/empower, and 240 for the sorcerer w/empower (assuming every save is failed and every ranged touch hits), which is a more substantive gulf between the two.


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## Majere (Sep 9, 2004)

Sorren said:
			
		

> This is still going huh? I guess I'll chime in with my two cents. Or a dime. This is going to be long…




Hate to say this but.. 
Your damage calculations are wrong.

You cant just state average damages without including saves.
The psion powers have higer DC's, on average you are less likely to save for half. They can also pick elements that avoid resistances or abliities like evaion. They can also pick the save to give themselves even better damage potential.

Im afraid a true comparrisson of damage would need to include these factor, infact I may do this myself when I have the time

Majere


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## Sorren (Sep 9, 2004)

Spatula said:
			
		

> Using your numbers, the psion with empower does 210 over 5 rounds, more than the sorcerer.  But your numbers are flawed, the real numbers are 270 for the psion w/empower, and 240 for the sorcerer w/empower (assuming every save is failed and every ranged touch hits), which is a more substantive gulf between the two.




That also assumes that the psion is able to maintain his focus from round to round which of course requires an additional feat or two.

And even then, it's hardly broken.



> You misunderstand. He's saying that in a typical day, the PCs are only likely to face around 16 rounds of combat total. So the sorcerer's ability to out-damage the psion over the next 19 rounds will never actually come into play (in his games, at least).




Again we come around to it being a matter of gaming style. And even at 16 rounds, that's 5 rounds of the psion doing nothing.

The point is, people are saying that the psion is broken because it can supposedly do a lot more damage than the sorcerer in the short term. The fact is, the psion can do only _*slightly*_ more damage, and the sorcerer more than makes up for these few points with the ability to keep going far longer.

Assuming a 16 round adventuring day, let's say the psion does 30-40 points more damage than the sorcerer in the first 11 rounds. The sorcerer will more than make up for that during the 5 rounds that the psion is sitting on the sidelines.


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## Scion (Sep 9, 2004)

Say that the numbers are more or less correct, eventually someone may fix them completely but for now we'll roll with it.

Over the course of 16 combat rounds in an entire day then the two classes are roughly equal for damage output. But, the psion is done.

for the other X number of 'rounds' of 'challenges' throughout the day the sorcerer still has a bunch of spells to fix the problem, whatever it may be.

So, for the comparison above it focused on damage, that is fine. Once the psion is out (assuming this happens at the same time the last baddy is gone) then whatever the sorc has left over above and beyond the psion can then be used as utility over the whole day.

Damage? roughly equal, but then the sorc has a huge amount of other things he can still do.


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## Majere (Sep 9, 2004)

Lord Pendragon said:
			
		

> What this thread would really benefit from would be a comparison similar to the one Scion and Elder-Basilisk gave us in the PsyWar vs. Fighter thread.  Let each person who believes one guy is stronger do a full write up, then throw the contestants against 3 specific encounters and see how they do.  Rate them separately for Versatility, Damage Dealing, etc.  That thread taught me a heck of a lot about the two classes involved.




Bah
I know I upset you in the thread about lances, but to ignore my two dwarfs from the fighter/psiwar thread hurts   
I will have to post some numbers in this thread to gain the noble Lord's attention 

Majere


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## Majere (Sep 9, 2004)

Sorren said:
			
		

> But you can't roll 3.5, so I went for 3.




But you can roll 7 on 2d6
If you are taking averages you have to take true averages or your numbers become skewed

Majere


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## Sorren (Sep 9, 2004)

Scion said:
			
		

> Damage? roughly equal, but then the sorc has a huge amount of other things he can still do.




I've avoided touching on this because it can't be measured, but it's true.

Even if the psion out damages the sorcerer by as much as 30-40 points, he is still done. Even if all the fighting is over, there could be other sorts of challenges that a certain spell could overcome.


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## Sorren (Sep 9, 2004)

Majere said:
			
		

> But you can roll 7 on 2d6
> If you are taking averages you have to take true averages or your numbers become skewed
> 
> Majere




This has all been previously mentioned and addressed.


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## Sorren (Sep 9, 2004)

*NOTE: I didn't just correct the math, so please read the whole thing.*

Screw it. I decided to fix the math, which had some interesting results.

My analysis and thoughts…

*REVISED*

*”Psions” do not compare well with Sorcerers*

Psions are forced to specialize. You can't compare a "psion" to anything because a "psion" doesn't exist. You want to compare a Kineticist to a Sorcerer, you need to keep in mind the fact that the Kineticist is focused on dealing damage and manipulating energy while the sorcerer is a little more open ended.

It'd be like comparing an Evocation Specialist against a Sorcerer. Who is more powerful there?

Also, don't plan on giving him many other powers like Astral Construct or Metamorphosis unless you take into account the fact that he will have to wait an additional two levels and spend a feat to get them. 

But he gets bonus feats. This is true. However, those feats are needed for other things if the psion ever wants to make extensive use of metapsionics or anything that requires focus.

*Damage is the Only Common Ground.*

To compare the two, the only true real basis for analysis is damage output. The usefulness of other powers and spells is too dependent on other factors such as the DM's style, the environment, etc, and therefore can’t be taken into consideration here.

In general, damage output is the only thing the two classes can really agree on and is typically the first thing that causes the "overpowered" flag to be waved. Thus, it becomes the "measuring stick" that I’ll be using.

*Number of Spells Cast vs. Number of Powers Manifested*

Example characters:

10th level Human Kineticist (Int 16) vs. 10th level Human Sorcerer (Cha 16)
For the purposes of comparison, we'll assume that neither of them has access to any money or equipment.

*Psion*
Number of Powers Known: 21
Power Points: 103
Possible Conversion to Slots Configuration: 1-2 (2pps); 2-1 (3pps); 3-4 (20pps); 4-6 (42pps); 5-4 (36pps)

This is, I feel, a pretty realistic distribution of power usage for a psion. It represents a player who is concerned with trying to hit hard whenever possible, but is being just a little conservative. In this example, he gets 4 uses of his highest level powers.

*Sorcerer*
Number of Spells Known: 0-9; 1-5; 2-4; 3-3; 4-2; 5-1  (Total: 24)
Spells Castable per Day: 0-6; 1-7; 2-7; 3-7; 4-5; 5-3
Slot Conversion to Power Points: 3*+7+21+35+35+21 = 122
[size]* I counted 0 level spells as a half power point.[/size]

This assumes no augmentation is being done. So as you can see above, the psion gets an additional use of his highest, and next to highest, level powers each day when compared to a sorcerer, but severely lacks in lower level manifestations.

Let's look at the lower level stuff. Assuming there is no augmentation done, the low level psionics pale in comparison to low level spells due to augmentation. If the psion decides to augment, he can, but he is going to loose use of some of those higher level "slots".

In the end, I feel that if you are only looking at number of powers vs. number of spells, they are about equal. The psion has the option to blow more points up front, but players in most situations will manifest about an equal number of their highest level powers and next highest level powers as well as a few lower level powers for utility. This is represented in the PPs to slot conversion above.

The sorcerer is much better over time. While the psion has the ability to blow a lot of power in a short amount of time, the sorcerer can use up his high level slots, and still fall back on fairly potent low level powers. The psion will have a few more high level "slots" but when they are gone, he is pretty much tapped out.

This is where the DMs gaming style comes into play. In a situation where the character must face multiple encounters before he can rest, the sorcerer is going to fair well. He'll probably blow two to four high level slots per battle, but when he runs out, his low level powers are still effective. Unless he has Empower Spell…. we’ll get to that.

The psion will likely dominate the battlefield during the first encounter if he thinks he can rest. If he knows he will have more encounters later, he is going to either hold back his power and thus spend a few rounds playing the part of cheerleader while occasionally tossing out a potent strike, or he'll be a walking artillery platform for two encounters at the most and be a spectator for the rest.

So in conclusion, if the party is in a position to rest after every battle, the psion is more potent. He can blow all of his points on his highest level powers, or spend all of his points augmenting, and thus rule the battlefield.

If the party is going to face multiple encounters, the sorcerer has the advantage. He can burn through his higher level spells in the first few encounters, and still be able to play an important roll with low level spells in the later encounters.

*Damage Dealing – The Contest*

So a psion (kineticist) and a sorcerer decide to settle the matter once and for all. The challenge: Who can deal the most damage? (Using average damage with no metapsionics or metamagic.) I hope my math and strategies are right here...

*The Psion*

Round 1: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage
Round 2: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage
Round 3: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage
Round 4: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage
Round 5: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage
Round 6: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage
Round 7: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage
Round 8: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage
Round 9: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage
Round 10: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage
Round 11: Energy Missle (3pps); 3d6+3 = 13 points of Fire Damage

Total: 463 points of damage over 11 rounds


*The Sorcerer*

Round 1: Cone of Cold (5th level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Cold Damage
Round 2: Cone of Cold (5th level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Cold Damage
Round 3: Cone of Cold (5th level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Cold Damage
Round 4: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage
Round 5: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage
Round 6: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage
Round 7: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage
Round 8: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage
Round 9: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage
Round 10: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage
Round 11: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage

Subtotal up to this point: 378 points of damage over 11 rounds. 

The psion can deal roughly 85 more points of damage, but is completely out of power points by this point. He is now a cheerleader for the rest of the party. But let’s see what or sorcerer friend is doing…

Round 12: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage
Round 13: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage
Round 14: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage
Round 15: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage
Round 16: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage
Round 17: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage
Round 18: Shout (4th level Slot); 5d6 = 17 points of Sonic Damage + Deafened
Round 19: Shout (4th level Slot); 5d6 = 17 points of Sonic Damage + Deafened
Round 20: Shout (4th level Slot); 5d6 = 17 points of Sonic Damage + Deafened
Round 21: Shout (4th level Slot); 5d6 = 17 points of Sonic Damage + Deafened
Round 22: Shout (4th level Slot); 5d6 = 17 points of Sonic Damage + Deafened
Round 23: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 24: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 25: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 26: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 27: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 28: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 29: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 30: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 2 point of Cold Damage
Round 31: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 2 point of Cold Damage
Round 32: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 2 point of Cold Damage
Round 33: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 2 point of Cold Damage
Round 34: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 2 point of Cold Damage
Round 35: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 2 point of Cold Damage

Subtotal: 384 points of damage over the next 24 rounds and a lot of enemies are deafened.

Total: 762 points of damage over 35 rounds.

Of course, this is an extreme example of damage dealing gone crazy, but we can learn something from this. A sorcerer is less than 3 fireballs away from dealing the same amount of damage as the psion in the first 11 rounds. In addition, the slots the sorcerer used were not his highest level. He has a lot of potential left regarding non-damage dealing spells.

After the psion was dead in the water, the sorcerer still had all of his 4th level slots left. If he stopped concentrating on dealing pure damage, those 4th level slots would be much more effective. Even concentrating purely on damage, he is able to do another 384 points of damage before he joins the psion on the sidelines. Give him Empower spell, and well…. see below.

*Damage Dealing with Metapsionics & Metamagic*

So let's now take metapsionics and metamagic into consideration:

*The Psion*

Round 1: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 54 points of Fire Damage
Round 2: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 54 points of Fire Damage
Round 3: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 54 points of Fire Damage
Round 4: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 54 points of Fire Damage
Round 5: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 54 points of Fire Damage
Round 6: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 54 points of Fire Damage
Round 7: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 54 points of Fire Damage
Round 8: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 54 points of Fire Damage
Round 9: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 54 points of Fire Damage
Round 10: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 54 points of Fire Damage
Round 11: Empowered Energy Ray (1+2=3pps); 1d6+1 x 150% = 7 points of Fire Damage

Total: 547 points of damage over 11 rounds. 
This requires Empower Power and a successful check to regain focus every round which also requires an additional feat or two.

*Sorcerer*

Round 1: Empowered Fire Ball (5th level Slot); 10d6 x 150% = 52 points of Fire Damage
Round 2: Empowered Fire Ball (5th level Slot); 10d6 x 150% = 52 points of Fire Damage
Round 3: Empowered Fire Ball (5th level Slot); 10d6 x 150% = 52 points of Fire Damage
Round 4: Empowered Scorching Ray (4th level Slot); 8d6 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 5: Empowered Scorching Ray (4th level Slot); 8d6 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 6: Empowered Scorching Ray (4th level Slot); 8d6 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 7: Empowered Scorching Ray (4th level Slot); 8d6 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 8: Empowered Scorching Ray (4th level Slot); 8d6 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 9: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage
Round 10: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage
Round 11: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage

Total: 471 points of damage over 11 rounds. This requires the Empower Spell Feat.

At this point, the sorcerer still has 4 3rd level spells, and he hasn't touched his 2nd, 1st, or 0 level spells at all. He is 20 points behind a psion with Empower Power in average damage, but he isn't out of spells. So let's see what the sorcerer is up to while our psion sits on the bench...  

(Not wanting to shame his friend, he decides to stop using metamagic.)

Round 12: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage
Round 13: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage
Round 14: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage
Round 15: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage
Round 16: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage
Round 17: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage
Round 18: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage
Round 19: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage
Round 20: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage
Round 21: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage
Round 22: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage
Round 23: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 24: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 25: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 26: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 27: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 28: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 29: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 30: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 2 points of Cold Damage
Round 31: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 2 points of Cold Damage
Round 32: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 2 points of Cold Damage
Round 33: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 2 points of Cold Damage
Round 34: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 2 points of Cold Damage
Round 35: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 2 points of Cold Damage

That’s an additional 467 points of damage over the next 24 rounds. All while our kineticist is busy performing his favorite cheers.

Total: 938 points of damage over 35 rounds.

So the basic sorcerer can't deal as much damage as the basic kineticist in 11 rounds. However, give him the Empower Spell feat, and deals an average of 8 more points than the kineticist in 11 rounds and has a load of still very effective lower level spells to fall back on.

For the cost of a single feat, the 10th level sorcerer can effectively dish out an average of 467 points of damage *after* he gets done dealing more damage than our psion buddy over 11 rounds of constant combat.

Without Empower, the sorcerer is considerably weaker than the psion over a short amount of time 985 points difference). With empower, he is capable of more damage in the same amount of time *and* he can continue to lay down damage *long* after the psion. 
Give the kineticist Empower Power and you’ll see a difference of 76 points of damage. However, the psion must maintain focus each round, which is only reliable with the expenditure of several feats.


*Other Considerations*

Feats: 

Psions get bonus feats. Sorcerers don't. We see from this test that it takes a metamagic feat to put the sorcerer on par with the psion when it comes to pure damage over a short period of time. So do we give the sorcerer a bonus feat? No. 

For the price of one feat, not only deal more damage in the same 11 rounds as the psion, but becomes FAR superior in that he can go much longer before he's out of the fight.

The only problem I see is that Empower Spell in this case breaks a major rule of feats. "Feats should be nice, but never necessary."

But a psion gets more than just one bonus feat. However, all of those will be spent on focus related feats if he wants to use metapsionics to any degree. Or, he can use them to overcome the negative effects of being forced to specialize by selecting powers outside his specialty.

Familiar/Psicrystal:

Sorcerers get a free familiar. Psions get a bonus feat at first level that can be spent to get a psicrystal. Personally, I think this is pretty balanced. Disagree? Allow the sorcerer to swap his familiar for a bonus feat. I've been doing it in my game for years.

Armor Check Penalty:

Psions have a clear advantage here. No way to argue that. 

Componants vs. Displays:

Psions can automatically attempt to suppress their displays. Sorcerers can't go without components without the proper feats. Psions have a clear advantage here. 

Saving Throw DCs:

The above analysis does not factor in DCs for the spells and powers. While some Powers have a DC that scales with augmentation, the spells do not. However, I think this is a fair trade given the dramatic difference regarding how long each class can remain active. 

In addition, the sorcerer can get feats that improve his DCs. these are a constant effect. Due to the focus requirement, the psion cannot make use of these feats without also either burning more feats or giving up metapsionics.


*Conclusion*

Assuming an average of 16 rounds of combat in one adventuring day, the sorcerer will still have plenty of spell slots open for utility spells to overcome challenges that can’t be solved through damage delivery. The psion however, is tapped out. In fact, he’ll even spend 5 of those 16 rounds sitting on the sidelines.

Over the short term, a basic psion can lay down more damage than a basic sorcerer in a short amount of time. Give the sorcerer Empower Spell, and he not only deals more damage than the psion over 11 rounds, but can continue to deal considerable amounts of damage long after the psion has become useless. The psion can jump back in the lead with Empower Power, but it isn’t as reliable as Empower Spell due to the need to retain his focus.

The psion has the advantage regarding non-damage dealing issues. He can pick his element of choice on the spot while a sorcerer can't do this without a few feats. The psion also doesn't have to worry about arcane spell failure or components. 

Do these things make up for the several rounds he spends on the sidelines watching his sorcerer buddy continue the fight? I personally think it makes them about even. In fact, it could even be said that, in the right campaign, the sorcerer is the stronger of the two classes. Just give him Empower Spell and watch him go at it like the fireball slinging Energizer Bunny.


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## Plane Sailing (Sep 10, 2004)

If you were to consider all attacks against single targets you might find the psion sticking with empowered augmented Mind Thrust...

for 10pp he gets 8d10 * 150% (average 66 damage) each round

for a total of 660 +3d10 (that last mind thrust) for a total of 675.5 damage.

On the other hand a 10th level Sorcerer can wreak havoc with Telekinesis manouevres at 800ft range, while the poor liddle psion (of whatever flavour) can't reach further than 200ft with his telekinesis. 

Often it is wilderness adventures which have a low number of encounters per day, which makes ALL casters shine compared to non-casters, these very adventures often involve longer ranges and the sorcerer tends to have longer ranged spells.

The range doesn't come into play so much in dungeon adventures, but those tend to be multiple encounter affairs where a sorcerers endurance comes to the fore.

(tangent - I play a sorcerer (currently 11th) and despite several long major encounters in one day she still had plenty of spells to use of each level. The wizard and cleric were both almost out of spells at the end of the first encounter, completely out by the middle of the second major encounter and found it difficult to contribute in the third major encounter.)


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## Patryn of Elvenshae (Sep 10, 2004)

Quick note: Don't round.  We're dealing with hypotheticals here, we can handle a sorceror doing 3.75 damage with a spell.  

Rounding tends to throw off the numbers, though admittedly it may not be enough to matter, in some cases it might be.


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## Testament (Sep 10, 2004)

The whole Power Stone argument needs adressing here:

1. Brainburn is nasty.  On those rare occaisons that you screw up the adressing of a stone, it hurts bad.

2. They're scrolls.  So forget using a power from them without burning it up.

3. Specialisation!  If you are a Psion, you can't even use a stone, Dorje or Psicrown to activate another disciplinary list's powers!  Oooh, look at the mighty kineticist, can't even teleport without the expenditure of a feat to pull it off the Nomad list, and that's only when he's 11th level.  Or he waits until he gets 8th level powers.  Schyeah right.

Oh, and Thanee, where are you pulling your "free metamagic" argument from?  It costs them more of those sweet sweet power points, draining more of their ammo for the day!

I reiterate, focusing solely on the ability of a Kineticist to dish out blatty death, and calling it broken on that basis DOES NOT make for a fair analysis.  The Kineticist loses utility, while the Sorc can still take buffs and utility spells.  Haste and Fly anyone?  How about the stat kickers?


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## Sorren (Sep 10, 2004)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> If you were to consider all attacks against single targets you might find the psion sticking with empowered augmented Mind Thrust...
> 
> for 10pp he gets 8d10 * 150% (average 66 damage) each round
> 
> for a total of 660 +3d10 (that last mind thrust) for a total of 675.5 damage.




My psion uses Mind Thrust on occasion. I'd consider it about equel to Energy Missle. It does more damage when it hits, but it's all or nothing while Energy Missle is save for half.

If you hit with a Mind Thrust about half the time, the damage is about the same. And don't forget that a lot of creatures are outright immune.

Telekinesis is VERY nice, but it's also very dependent on the enviroment. Like Mind Thrust, it's often useless, but when you can hit with it, you can hit hard.


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## Sorren (Sep 10, 2004)

Patryn of Elvenshae said:
			
		

> Quick note: Don't round.  We're dealing with hypotheticals here, we can handle a sorceror doing 3.75 damage with a spell.
> 
> Rounding tends to throw off the numbers, though admittedly it may not be enough to matter, in some cases it might be.




It's close enough. I'm not going through it again.


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## Sorren (Sep 10, 2004)

Testament said:
			
		

> I reiterate, focusing solely on the ability of a Kineticist to dish out blatty death, and calling it broken on that basis DOES NOT make for a fair analysis.




Especially when the sorcerer can very well do as much or more damage.
If you call the psion broken, you have to call the sorcerer broken too.


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## Thanee (Sep 10, 2004)

Droid101 said:
			
		

> It might be hard to even convince me of this.  The psion will be able to deal more damage in that first encounter, but the sorcerer will haste his party, break the enchantment of the cleric who go turned to stone, cast fly on everyone, etc.  His spells may go further in winning the encounter than damage alone.




As for party buffs, the sorcerer has the better options, but please take a look at the total number of spells the sorcerer knows. That's _extremely_ few (especially in the highly important high level range)!

An average psion (of whatever discipline) will have a wider variation of powers than a sorcerer can only dream of.

Bye
Thanee


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## Majere (Sep 10, 2004)

Bleah 
I cant stat out a proper exampe character psi as the SRD doesnt seem to contain any of the spells people are using  Or infact much of anything. What a waste of HDD space.

But we need properly statted out charaters. A 10th level psi will have a torc, and the sorcerer may well have gimmiks.
You also need to actually put the damage up against a CR10 creature.
Most CR10 creatures will have elemental resistances which will nerf the sorcerers damage output considerably. 

The exercise of statting our real character will also give a better appreciation of how restrictive a real selection of psi powers is. At the moment energy ball seems to cover 2-3 spells: Fireball, Delayed blast fireball, Cone of cold. Unless people actually make the characters its impossible to really see how expeansive a psi can be compare to a sorcerer.

Majere


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## Droid101 (Sep 10, 2004)

Majere said:
			
		

> Bleah
> I cant stat out a proper exampe character psi as the SRD doesnt seem to contain any of the spells people are using  Or infact much of anything. What a waste of HDD space.



http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicPowers.html
Try this one, it has all the psionic powers already corrected for errata.


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## Sorren (Sep 10, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> As for party buffs, the sorcerer has the better options, but please take a look at the total number of spells the sorcerer knows. That's _extremely_ few (especially in the highly important high level range)!
> 
> An average psion (of whatever discipline) will have a wider variation of powers than a sorcerer can only dream of.
> 
> ...




How so? A 10th level sorcerer gets 3 more spells than a psion gets powers and the psion is forced to specialize.


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## Sorren (Sep 10, 2004)

Majere said:
			
		

> Bleah
> I cant stat out a proper exampe character psi as the SRD doesnt seem to contain any of the spells people are using  Or infact much of anything. What a waste of HDD space.
> 
> But we need properly statted out charaters. A 10th level psi will have a torc, and the sorcerer may well have gimmiks.
> ...




This can't work.

If you give them gear, the argument can become "The torc/wand/staff/pearl is too powerful!" or whatever. The problem (or perceived problem) could be the gear, not the class. The only way to compare them is without gear.

You also can't pit them against a creature. At that point dice have to enter the picture and you can't depend on dice to give you an accurate portrayal. If the dice are rolling in his favor, a 3rd level fighter can take down a 10th level fighter.

If you use averages, certain things will always hit or miss, and that isn't realistic either.

You can stat up the character to get a good idea of what he will look like, but there is no way to test them without extensive play. For what it's worth, I've been playing a psion for the past few months and they don't seem over powered to me.


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## Thanee (Sep 10, 2004)

Sorren said:
			
		

> *Damage is the Only Common Ground.*
> 
> To compare the two, the only true real basis for analysis is damage output. The usefulness of other powers and spells is too dependent on other factors such as the DM's style, the environment, etc, and therefore can’t be taken into consideration here.




It's one way to compare, but certainly not the only one and surely (IMHO) not the best one (especially not, if the numbers are flawed, which easily happens, not to blame you there, just the system ). I believe the best way is to simply compare spell/power levels at the same scaling/augmentation level, as I have tried on page 3.

Why? Because it doesn't focus on single spells/powers, which by themselves could (and most certainly will) not be fully balanced among each other, or single hypothetical situations only; it focuses on the potential, which can be brought to bear, be it damage, utility or whatnot. It's more generic and includes many more situations than simple damage dealing ever could. Still it is accurate, since spell levels and caster/manifester levels are the base for the whole system and very much compareable.

The crux of this comparison is the following:

*An x-th level spell of y-th caster level (but not higher than the cap) has about the same effect as an x-th level power augmented to y-th manifester level.*

The powers are often more flexible by themselves (especially when looking at the kineticist powers, of course), but the actual effect will be and should be _roughly_ the same. The flexibility itself is not covered here, however. The power also costs more effectively, because "scaling" has to be paid for, but this cost is obviously included already, if you compare the augmented power and look how many of those can be manifested compared to scaled-up spells. But do not forget here, that quite a few powers are available also, which have their full effect at minimum augmentation level (in fact do not even have any augmentation in most cases, Fly or Metamorphosis are two of those), so it is not needed to fully augment every power (duration and range do scale for free for psions in the same way as they do for the sorcerer).

With this in mind, the number of spellcastings/manifestations per day is being compared.

I believe, that in this comparison, the sorcerer and psion come out about even... so far. The sorcerer will win in the endurance department (additional low-level effects), obviously, while the psion clearly wins in the raw power department (more powerful effects in a short time). I consider the latter to be more important (which the "Mystic Theurge problem" effectively demonstrates, who suffers greatly from the lack of high level effects, which is not fully compensated by the huge amount of low level effects they have until they reach very high levels (and by then have much, much more additional low level effects than the sorcerer has over the psion)), but that's just an opinion like any other. All in all, I think it's ok up to this point and neither class is at a considerable advantage yet.

Now, if they are about even up to this point, if you look at what is left, because the above is not the whole picture yet, the psion has such a clear advantage there, that it's not even funny.

+ usually higher save DCs on augmented powers (further increased by psionatrix)
+ faster access to higher power levels
+ more "effective spells" known (one power includes more than one spell in most cases), much more high level spells/powers among those (and on top of that the ability to swap all powers, skills and feats out _completely_ at an XP cost)
+ much higher flexibility and the ability to manifest more high level powers or a huge amount of low level powers
+ many powers have built-in flexibility, which similar spells lack usually
+ no need for many metamagic feats (Heighten, Still, Silent, Energy Affinity mostly)
+ Quicken Power
+ Swift and immediate action powers
+ no verbal, somatic, material components (grapple, silence)
+ bonus feats
+ better feat choices
+ better skills (more effective skill points and better class skill list)
+ armor
- lack of good party buffs, often powers are personal only
- weaker base to pick powers from, there simply are more spells out there
- more restricted by discipline lists (tho, since they have plenty more feats (bonus feats and non-dependancy on metamagic feats), this can be circumvented with Expanded Knowledge to a degree)
- psionic focus issues (tho the feats (Psionic Endowment/Penetration most importantly) are better in comparison and the focus issues can be circumvented to a degree)

If I have missed something important here, please point it out, I'll gladly add it to the list. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Sep 10, 2004)

Sorren said:
			
		

> How so? A 10th level sorcerer gets 3 more spells than a psion gets powers and the psion is forced to specialize.




Yeah, if you simply add up spells known (including the almighty 0th level spells, which make up a considerable amount there (over 1/3 of the total) ) and compare them *one-by-one* to powers known... but this comparison is _highly flawed_.

1) Because of the already mentioned 0th level spells, which can be ignored pretty much. Except for Detect Magic mostly, which the psion has to waste a single 1st level power on.
2) Because a single power known is "worth" a lot more than a single spell known in most cases, since all the lesser and greater, or I, II, III, etc versions are already included. To be fair, this is partially (but not even close to fully) compensated by the sorcerers ability to swap out single spells every other level.
3) Because a 10th level sorcerer knows exactly *one* 5th level spell, while a psion knows *four* (real) 5th level powers, plus all the lower level ones, which include higher level versions via augmentation, which will add another 8-10 to the tally for sure.

Spell/Power Level | Sorcerer Spells Known | Psion Powers Known

0th | 9 | - (1 - Detect Psionics)
1st | 5 | 5 (4)
2nd | 4 | 4+
3rd | 3 | 4++
4th | 2 | 4+++
5th | 1 | 4++++

That's how.

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Sep 10, 2004)

Sorren said:
			
		

> If you give them gear, the argument can become "The torc/wand/staff/pearl is too powerful!" or whatever. The problem (or perceived problem) could be the gear, not the class. The only way to compare them is without gear.




Yeah, tho I wouldn't go that far. Give them both reasonable stat boosters (+4 Int/Cha at 10th level), but nothing else. Those are the same for both classes and 99% of the characters out there will have them.

Bye
Thanee


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## Scion (Sep 10, 2004)

the save dc's are mostly exactly the same, and generally for less damage. The few that have higher dc's (I believe there are 2 powers that fit this description, only 2, so 'usually' is a bit faudulant).

Several of your pluses are actually exactly the same thing but rephrased.

You ignored no scaling.

You completely underplay how incredibly bad having to use focus is.

A regular caster can get spell penetration, spell focus, and a metamagic and use them all at the same time. The psion must choose which one he wants and without further feats he only gets to do this once per battle (or spend a whole round doing nothing in an attempt to get focus back). Without a huge feat expenditure he cant even use two of them at the same time. Want to use a metamagic and power penetration? sorry, you will need a list of feats and you cant do it every round, period.

There are some very massive downsides there which you seem to just ignore, these need to be added in for any kind of comparison to be made.


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## MoogleEmpMog (Sep 10, 2004)

Scion said:
			
		

> A regular caster can get spell penetration, spell focus, and a metamagic and use them all at the same time. The psion must choose which one he wants and without further feats he only gets to do this once per battle (or spend a whole round doing nothing in an attempt to get focus back). Without a huge feat expenditure he cant even use two of them at the same time. Want to use a metamagic and power penetration? sorry, you will need a list of feats and you cant do it every round, period.




I don't have enough experience with 3.5 psionics to weigh in on this thread as a whole, but I just have to say: I weep for the party whose sorcerer burned his handful of feats on spell penetration and spell focus.  Those feats are almost always a waste for wizards, much less sorcerers.


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## Scion (Sep 10, 2004)

3.5 spell focus is pretty worthless, but penetration is nice. Having all of your spells effected by it by default means that whenever you need it, even if you dont know that you do, there it is helping out.

If you never see anything with SR then it wont matter sure, but the higher level one gets the more likely things are to have it 

Still, even with one being marginal at low levels and the other being worthless almost always at least the caster type always has them on for any spells they apply to. The psion must pick and choose and expend focus to use it at all. Apply metamagic or try to get through SR/PR? Choose between a + to the dc or power penetration.

Major drawback.


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## Spatula (Sep 10, 2004)

Sorren, thanks for doing the comparison.


			
				Sorren said:
			
		

> How so? A 10th level sorcerer gets 3 more spells than a psion gets powers and the psion is forced to specialize.



Like Thanee says, sorcerers get loads of cantrips that don't really count for much, and know very few of their higher level powers when they first get access to a spell level.  A psion can learn two 5th level powers at 9th level (the sorcerer doesn't even have access to 5th level spells at that point), and can pick up two more at 10th (when the sorcerer gets a single 5th level spell).  Over time, the sorcerer's spells known at each spell level comes to be more or less equal to the psion's powers known, but the psion gets it all upfront while the sorcerer must wait.  A sorcerer will be 15th level before he knows four 5th level spells.


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## Lord Pendragon (Sep 10, 2004)

Majere said:
			
		

> Bah
> I know I upset you in the thread about lances, but to ignore my two dwarfs from the fighter/psiwar thread hurts
> I will have to post some numbers in this thread to gain the noble Lord's attention



My apologies, Majere, I do remember your build on the Fighter vs. PsiWar thread, and it too was illuminating.  I'll never doubt a high-level fighter's powers again. 

As for this thread, it simply will not be as illuminating without actual builds critiqued against a series of varied challenges, as was the case in the other thread.  Of course, being far too lazy and far too ignorant of the subtleties of the two classes in question, I can hardly demand others do that kind of work.


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## Thanee (Sep 10, 2004)

Scion said:
			
		

> the save dc's are mostly exactly the same, and generally for less damage. The few that have higher dc's (I believe there are 2 powers that fit this description, only 2, so 'usually' is a bit faudulant).



 Nope, many/most augmentable power increases DC over an arcanists spell.



> Several of your pluses are actually exactly the same thing but rephrased.



 Which? You mean the components and metamagic feats? Mainly emphasized the (IMHO quite big) advantage of grapple and silence "immunity" there, whereas the other one is about adding spell levels more. Or did you mean the double mentioning of flexibility? Those are two very different things as well, the one is simply how the PP can be distributed over the day (few highly augmented or many unaugmented powers, or somewhere in between), and the other points to individual powers, which can provide multiple different effects (the Energy line's ability to choose energy type and save type being the prime example here) or are modular (like Dominate, where you can choose a high/low duration depending on what is needed).

 The only item I can remotely agree to is the "no need for metamagic feats", which is partially (but certainly not fully) overlapping with other items (the higher save DC and the in-built flexibility of powers). But that's only a very small area these have in common and the primary reason for each item is fairly different. I tried to not include multiple items in a single line as much as possible there.



> You ignored no scaling.



    Absolutely not, it's included in the initial comparison to full degree.



> You completely underplay how incredibly bad having to use focus is.



 That's something that can be argued, though, since in your opinion, as you have said multiple times, Spell Focus (and thus Psionic Endowment) is useless and metamagic (and thus metapsioncs) is too weak, anyways, also don't forget, that psions barely need metapsioncs at all to get to the point the sorcerer reaches with metamagic only.

       This leaves only Psionic Penetration to be used with focus, thus hardly a limit at all. 



> A regular caster can get spell penetration, spell focus, and a metamagic and use them all at the same time. The psion must choose which one he wants and without further feats he only gets to do this once per battle (or spend a whole round doing nothing in an attempt to get focus back).



 Of course, this is the disadvantage of psionic focus pretty much, that only one of those feats can be used at a time. Psionic Meditation is just one feat (they gain many more bonus feats, especially if you also consider the meta-feats they do _not_ need) to make them worthwhile and the feats to be used with psionic focus (mostly Endowment and Penetration) are still better (easily twice as good, so with only one feat usage you get the effective benefit of two, anyways) than either Spell Focus or Spell Penetration, so have to be limited in another way.

       Yet, I listed it as a disadvantage, since I do agree, that it is more limiting than what these advantages compensate for!



> There are some very massive downsides there which you seem to just ignore, these need to be added in for any kind of comparison to be made.



 Which are?

       Bye
       Thanee

 P.S. BTW, I also think Spell Focus is too weak now (and Endowment is in the same boat) at only +1 (should be +2), tho I do think the old Greater Spell Focus (+4) is too much, unless it has at least a high caster level requirement (12th+ ~ 15th+).


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## green slime (Sep 10, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Nope, every single augmentable power increases DC over an arcanists spell.




Absolutely, completely false, Thanee. I suggest you dust off your XPH and read it again.



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> *Energy Retort*
> Psychokinesis [see text]
> Level: Psion/wilder 3
> Display: Visual
> ...




Augmentable, but the save DC does *not* increase.

The VERY first power I looked up to check your statement. Shall I list more?

D-F (because I have this page up)
Powers Augmentable, but with no increase to save DC.
_Deceleration 
Disintegrate, Psionic
Ectoplasmic Cocoon, Mass
Empathic Transfer, Hostile
Eradicate Invisibility
False Sensory Input_

I'm not doing this through the entire power list.


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## Thanee (Sep 10, 2004)

Oh, ok, that's right, of course. Sorry for the inaccuracy! 

 Then make it many/most (I said "usually" in the list, which should fit pretty good) of the augmentable powers. It's still an advantage, as there is not a single spell which improves the DC when scaled up.

 Bye
 Thanee

 P.S. I just had a nice idea how to better demonstrate, what I am trying to say in my initial comparison (the stuff before the +/- list in my post above), not sure when I can get this up, tho. This should also show why exactly I think, that Sorren's damage comparison isn't a good method to compare the classes. It'll take a bit of preparation, however, so don't expect this too soon.


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## Majere (Sep 10, 2004)

If the thread kindly posted by droid allows me to complete the build I will hapily run average damage calculations againt 4 CR10 monster of my choice.
Contrary to the post retorting my dea of running the numbers, I will not be rolling dice. I will take average damage and results.

Infact I just had an even better Idea if Thane and one of the psion supporting posters are willing.
Thane posts the most twinked out possible 10th level psion he can.
One of the psi supporters post a twinked out 10th level sorcerer. 

Each poster is, of course, trying to prove their character is over powered.
After they are built I will reveal the 4 monsters and each player may reveal their tactics (for instance I imagine neither person will wants to us fireballs on salamanders etc). Ill run the average damage caculations. and people can see how each fairs. This will allow the flexibility of powers in terms of picking element/save and dc heightening to be compared agaist the metamagic of sorcerers. 

If people are willing then basic rules are :
32 point build
PHB, DMG, PSI-HB books only
Average  gold.
Average damage will be taken including the effects of SR and saves.

The reason I suggest this is:
1) Id have to learn the who psi rulebook to make a properly twinked psi.
2) Im at a hockey tournament so I dont have time to learn all the rules but I can do the number crunching no problem

One other thought. 
The basic blasts of a kinetisist seem to be energy missile/ball/blast.
Couldnt a psi pick another sepcialisation and then use extended knowledge to aquire these 3 spells nd have mucht he same kick as a kinetisist ?
Would this be better than playing a kinetisist and using extended knowledge to increase your flexibility ?
It would seem to me to be easier to pick up the majority of the blasts via feats than all the utility spells.

Majere


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## Scion (Sep 10, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Nope, many/most augmentable power increases DC over an arcanists spell.




I count two that 'can' be and several that cannot. The rest are usually pretty much equal.

So if two is 'usually' then which three powers are you looking at and why are you ignoring all of the rest?

Just to head off certain wrong assertions that I feel you may put forward lets take an example.

This: Augment: For every additional power point you spend, this power’s damage increases by one die (d6). For each extra two dice of damage, this power’s save DC increases by 1.

means that the dc will stay exactly the same as the arcane/divine equivalent. Everytime 2 pp are put in it is the same as raising the effective level by 1. In the same words, the dc stays exactly the same.    



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> grapple ...  "immunity"




I guess you mean that someone cannot cover the psions mouth while in a grapple since psions have to meet the same conditions to manifest as casters do to cast spells in a grapple. Especially a pretty hefty concentration check.

While it may be easier for the psion than for the mage, it is still a very far cry from 'immunity'. Especially since several of the spells a mage is most likely to attempt while in a grapple are vocal only, so adding in still spell isnt terribly difficult (have the rod in hand, prep it ahead of time, whatever).

Unless one is a sorc of course, but then there are many such problems with the sorc. No need to make one class worse because of the mistakes with another.



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> Absolutely not, it's included in the initial comparison to full degree.




Would that be:
+ usually higher save DCs on augmented powers (further increased by 

or
- lack of good party buffs, often powers are personal only

as the 'initial comparison'? As I was mentioning problems with your list since it was not on there. Since it is a list of pro's and con's then all pro's and con's should be listed, not just ones you mentioned almost in passing in some paragraph above it.

Scaling is a pretty major factor that you more or less toss away. Effectively the energy powers have given up scaling to get the minimum amount of damage for their level of power but the ability to shift elemental types and augment.

Trading in scaling for just augmentation would be a pretty major step downwards. It is giving up the diamond for a piece of coal. Sure, the coal is nice, but the diamond is just plain shiny. Hence why they get more than that in return.



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> That's something that can be argued, though, since in your opinion, as you have said multiple times, Spell Focus (and thus Psionic Endowment) is useless and metamagic (and thus metapsioncs) is too weak, anyways, also don't forget, that psions barely need metapsioncs at all to get to the point the sorcerer reaches with metamagic only.
> 
> This leaves only Psionic Penetration to be used with focus, thus hardly a limit at all.




So lets see here. We have various feats as options. For the caster they can get them and they apply whenever X is used, or they can spend a higher slot to get whatever pile of metamagics they have and want to use. Vs the psion who has to expend focus to use 'any' of them and so effectively can only use one at a time. Beyond that, it means that anything else they want to use focus on cannot be done (some feats require holding focus, those are now useless once focus is gone, other feats require expending focus, those are now useless as you have no focus to spend).

This is a 'huge' penalty. Even larger than the sorcs having to use a full round action to get off a metamagiced spell. He can do that every round. In order for the psion to be able to do so every round he would need to spend yet another feat and then hope he rolls high enough in his check. Also, regaining focus provokes an aoo unless yet another check is made.

Once again, this penalty is very large indeed.

Psions need metamagics for exactly the same reasons that other casters do, to do something better that was difficult to do before. However, it is very difficult for them to do so with consistancy.



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> Which are?




For starters? forced specialization that is much more strict than the wizards specialization. You have, 'more restricted by discipline lists' but this is no where near what is actually going on, it merely hints at the iceburg. Also, you say it can be partially overcome through feats, great, but then one is spending a single feat for a single power. This is not going to help the problem much or at all, especially since it burns resources that could be used for something else. Like say getting psychic meditation just to 'maybe' be able to use focus more than once per battle.


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## Sorren (Sep 10, 2004)

So would somebody explain to me how the psion is broken? Last I heard, the term broken was used to define a class/system/spell/item that completely disrupted the game, making it essentially unplayable.

Last time I checked, my game sessions seemed playable. Enjoyable even.

So a psion can blow all of his power up front, while a sorcerer is forced to spread it out a bit. Who cares? The psion is forced to specialize, the sorcerer isn't. And the sorcerer is hardly useless up front. As I've shown, he can deal as much damage as the psion and it's not like the rest of his spells are useless.

He clearly has better buffing ability that the psion, and with only a few exceptions (Astral Construct, which of course a kineticist has to take a feat to get) the statement that powers are as good a multiple spells is pure crap. There are easily as many spells that are as good as multiple powers.

So if they aren’t broken because they deal too much damage in combat, why exactly are they broken?

And don’t casually dismiss the usefulness of 0 level spells. While they are _only_ 0 level for the sorcerer, a psion who wants the equivalent has to burn a 1st level power.

Psions certainly have some things going for them. The flexibility is very nice, as is the lack of components and a few other things. However, the fact that a sorcerer is still going strong over 20 rounds longer than a psion can’t easily be dismissed.

So a psion hits hard with a augmented Energy Missle this round, the next round he may not be able to do anything. If the sorcerer casts a fireball this round _and_ next round, who is more powerful?

The psion’s strategy is to hit hard a few times. The sorcerer’s is to hit hard a lot more times. By what crazy logic does that result in a broken psion? The 10th level psion I showed was FINISHED after 11 rounds. If any more encounters or challenges of any sort pop up that day, he is all but helpless.

So because of augmented saving throw DCs and energy types selected on the fly, he’ll probably do a little better than the sorcerer during those first 11 rounds. But then what? Where is he during that 3rd encounter? He’d doing nothing. He’s dealing 0 damage, casting 0 buff spells, healing 0 damage, manifesting 0 utility powers, and manifesting 0 strategy based powers,

The sorcerer on the other hand, is doing all of these, and he’s doing them well. In fact, while the psion is sitting in the corner picking his nose, the sorcerer can be casting another:

4 *freely scaled* 3rd level spells – Example: Fireball, 10d6 damage each
7 *freely scaled* 2nd level spells – Example: Scorching Ray, 8d6 damage each
7 *freely scaled* 1st level spells – Example: Magic Missle, 5d4+5 *guaranteed* damage each

Sure, the DCs aren’t super high. So what. At least he is doing SOMETHING. And who cares about damage and DCs. While the psion is doing nothing (and his player is napping), the sorcerer could be casting buffs, invisibility, dispel magic etc.

Turtle vs. Hare 
…and I believe the turtle wins in the end…

So in my opinion. The psion’s advantages (scaled DCs, selectable energy types) make him a better artillery platform up front, for about 2-1/2 encounters. But to make up for it, that’s all he can do. Done.

The sorcerer trails slightly behind the psion for the first few encounters, but after that, you are comparing a still fully capable (18+ spells left) sorcerer to a useless psion. That’s like comparing a 7th level sorcerer to a 7th level commoner.

This also assumes that the psion’s player is willing to blow it all. If he is smart, and at least a little conservative, the classes come out more equal. The psions advantages (scaled DCs and energy choice) will be balanced by the fact that, if he doesn’t give it his all, his powers will be less effective than the sorcerer’s freely scaled spells.

So a power that’s not fully scaled + psions advantages = roughly about the same as the sorcerer’s freely scaled spell.

So if the psion takes that approach, he’ll be able to go longer. Let’s say 18 rounds. 
So for 18 rounds, the sorcerer and psion are on pretty equal ground. Then what? The psion STILL runs out of power and the sorcerer continues on.

But what if there are only 18 rounds of combat that day? Well then, the psion and sorcerer spent the day as equals. How is that broken?


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## Droid101 (Sep 10, 2004)

Majere said:
			
		

> If the thread kindly posted by droid...



Wuh?  I posted a thread where?


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## Nail (Sep 10, 2004)

Sorren said:
			
		

> So would somebody explain to me how the psion is broken?



Sure, I'll bite:

Allowing Psionics (and Psions) in the game makes playing a Sorcerer (and, argueably, a wizard) a second-rate choice.

We can, at the very least, put a caveat in there: In some games, where there are 5 to 7 combats a day, and in which (paradoxically) combat is not central to the story, psionics might be acceptable.


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## Sorren (Sep 10, 2004)

Nail said:
			
		

> Sure, I'll bite:
> 
> Allowing Psionics (and Psions) in the game makes playing a Sorcerer (and, argueably, a wizard) a second-rate choice.




 



> We can, at the very least, put a caveat in there: In some games, where there are 5 to 7 combats a day, and in which (paradoxically) combat is not central to the story, psionic might be acceptable.




So you didn't read any of my previous posts?

The psion is a useless character after roughly 2-3 encounters. During those first few encounters, the sorcerer functions only _slightly_ worse and can continue to contribute for an additional 5 or 6 encounters if necessary.

Barbarians can fight REALLY good when they rage. Fighters can fight almost as good all the time, and they can continue to fight long after the barbarian is fatigued. Clearly fighters are broken right? After all, barbarians are a second-rate choice.

[sarcasm]Clearly psions, with their unmatched ability to become useless after two fights, are the most powerful class.[/sarcasm]

But wait! No class even comes close to their power during the first two encounters. No.... that's not right either. The sorcerer is very close to the same level of power, and depending on the dice and feat selection, could in some cases be better.


Imagine the psion's and sorcerer's contribution to various encounters on a scale of 1-10.

1st Encounter - Psion 10, Sorcerer 9-8
2nd Encounter - Psion 10, Sorcerer 8
3rd Encounter - Psion 3, Sorcerer 8-7
4th Encounter - Psion 0, Sorcerer 7

So what exactly makes him broken? Is it the fact that the psion is made useless far quicker than any other spellcaster, or the fact that, for about 2 encounters, he is, on average, slightly better than the sorcerer.

I've been playing a psion for several months now, and I can tell you from experience, unless I am playing conservatively (and therefore, not being anywhere near as effective as a sorcerer or even a wizard could be), my character is nearly useless after only two encounters.

The cleric and sorcerer are still going strong, while I'm playing the part of cheerleader.


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## Lord Pendragon (Sep 10, 2004)

"Slightly"?  You keep using this word.  I do not think it means what you think it means. 

Your own numbers put the psion ahead by 76 points of damage in that 11 round window.  This number only increases if the two fight a critter immune to the sorcerer's energy type (I am gathering from these posts that a psion has a way to change energy types on the fly.)

I'm still not sure that the psion is the clearly superior choice, but saying they do "slightly" more damage seems to be misleading.


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## Sorren (Sep 10, 2004)

Lord Pendragon said:
			
		

> "Slightly"?  You keep using this word.  I do not think it means what you think it means.
> 
> Your own numbers put the psion ahead by 76 points of damage in that 11 round window.  This number only increases if the two fight a critter immune to the sorcerer's energy type (I am gathering from these posts that a psion has a way to change energy types on the fly.)
> 
> I'm still not sure that the psion is the clearly superior choice, but saying they do "slightly" more damage seems to be misleading.




Let me clarify, because I didn't make it clear in my last post. (Though I thought it was clear in the posts before it.)

A basic psion vs. A basic Sorcerer: The psion's damage output is pretty significant, around 20% better than the sorcerer's.

Now give the Sorcerer Empower Spell, and he can out perform the psion if the dice are in his favor. This is where, on average, because of his advantages such as scaling DCs and energy choice, the psion is only _slightly_ better.

Give the psion Empower Power, things get tricky. He can possibly jump back into the lead, but he needs his focus every round, which can't be overlooked as a major drawback. I think the drawback of needing focus balances the extra damage he could do.


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## Nail (Sep 10, 2004)

Again, your ignoring Save DCs, energy-type customizing, and the ability to really pump it out in only a few rounds.

As an aside: you've said your PC psion gets "nearly useless after only two encounters".  I'm interested in you elaborating on that a bit.  Could you bring in some examples from play?  That may sway my opinion a bit.

In one of my games (a play the cleric), we have both a sorcerer and a psion.  The psion is far more effective and adaptable....and he's not even a kineticist.    And since we do (at most!) 3 encounters a day, the psion is never "tapped out".


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## Thanee (Sep 10, 2004)

Sorren said:
			
		

> Last time I checked, my game sessions seemed playable. Enjoyable even.




Noone says, that this isn't possible. But that doesn't make the class balanced, and that's what I at least am talking about.

I can enjoy a game with unbalanced characters, too, occasionally, but I highly prefer, if the basic premise is, that the classes are more or less balanced. The psion, in my opinion, clearly stands out here.

But as I said above, I'll get back to this at a later time, when I can show a bit better what I mean.

Bye
Thanee


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## Sorren (Sep 10, 2004)

Nail said:
			
		

> Again, your ignoring Save DCs, energy-type customizing, and the ability to really pump it out in only a few rounds.




I didn't ignore it at all. I don't see how you missed it.



			
				Sorren said:
			
		

> Now give the Sorcerer Empower Spell, and he can out perform the psion if the dice are in his favor. This is where, on average, because of his advantages such as scaling DCs and energy choice, the psion is only _slightly_ better.




Just looking at the number of damage dice rolled, a sorcerer with Empower Spell will average a little more damage (8 points), than the psion. Consider the effects of energy choice and scaling DC, and that puts the psion a little ahead of the sorcerer. He is _slightly_ better.

The added bonus to DCs are nice, but it's only going to matter a few times in a battle. In addition, my examples use fire as the energy type, which does more damage than the other elements (except frost). If he switches energy types, it means he may very well deal much less damage.

Thus, his advantages with increased DCs and energy conversion are probably just enough to make him slightly better than the sorcerer with Empower Spell. If he didn't have those advantages, the sorcerer would be _slightly_better. (8 points better to be exact)



> As an aside: you've said your PC psion gets "nearly useless after only two encounters".  I'm interested in you elaborating on that a bit.  Could you bring in some examples from play?  That may sway my opinion a bit.
> 
> In one of my games (a play the cleric), we have both a sorcerer and a psion.  The psion is far more effective and adaptable....and he's not even a kineticist.    And since we do (at most!) 3 encounters a day, the psion is never "tapped out".




That makes me question the tactics your party sorcerer uses. In our last session, we had a side quest where we entered some mines that had been taken over by bandits, thieves, and some yuanti. 

Over the course of two encounters (about 8 rounds each) and several energy missles, mind thrusts, and astral constructs later, I was down to 7 power points. I had that many because I was being conservative. I spent about four rounds or so doing nothing more than cheering for my teammates.

No other character were standing still, I can assure you of that.

The highlight was when I smashed a bandit with a barrel full of flour with telekinesis and killed him. 

The other was a cool use of Control Object where I made a table some bandits were sitting at spring to life and attack them.   

All in all, I would say I was about as effective as a sorcerer of my level. Maybe a little better. I contributed heavily to the encounters, but it wiped me out. A sorcerer could have easily gone through at least one or two more encounters. He wouldn't have been at peak performance of course, but he would have at least still been active.


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## Psion (Sep 10, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Noone says, that this isn't possible. But that doesn't make the class balanced, and that's what I at least am talking about.
> 
> I can enjoy a game with unbalanced characters, too, occasionally




Well yeah. I played a 12th level wizard in a 5th level party. It was fun. It was a departure from the norm. But if you told everyone they could play 12th level wizards or 5th level fighters, the trend would be obvious.

The players may have resented it and it might have been a task for the GM to balance, but they were willing to do so because I had not had a chance to play my character since I was GMing their companions most of the time.

Being balanced is not about enjoyable games being _possible_. It's about whether the game is enjoyable as a matter of course. Is it convenient and does it minimize resentment among the players.

The situation IME is that, re: psionic characters and other classes, there is no such trend. There is no difference in powered so pronounced that every reasonable player is choosing psions over other classes or feeling resentful about the psion's presence, nor do I see the psion "carrying the load" or being the solution to all problems the party is presented with. It's just not happening.

So AFIACT, it is meeting the intent of "balanced", is ergo balanced.


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## two (Sep 10, 2004)

*Advantages of Hitting Fast, and Hard*

Sorren's analysis is leaving me rather ho-hum, if only because I think he's underestimating the power of doing lots of damage fast.

If the Psion can put down high DC, energy-specified, target-specified, save-specified boom on opponents, and do in three rounds what it would take a socerer to accomplish in 5 (for example), that's very significant.

Because it means that the stuff the Psion is trying to kill dies faster, thus:

1)  The party cleric does not have to waste healing spells as quickly, because the enemy didn't get a chance to do as much damage.
2)  Other party casters save more of their spells, becuase the enemy dropped faster.
3)  Other party resources are not used up as rapidly (rages for barbarians, etc. etc.).

I see this all the time in practice.  We don't play with Psions, but we do have some high damage-output PC's, who can do a lot of BOOM but not very often per day.  That's ok, because when they do go BOOM, the rest of the party doesn't squander many of their resources.  It's better for the party, overall, than if we all spent our 30% of resources each battle (individually).  Because by fight 4, (in the very rare instance when this happens), the clerics and casters still have spells to sling - even if the BOOM characters don't shine, they make the party stronger as a whole for keeping resources safe.

And of course there might not be a fight 4 or 5 that day, in which cast all those saved up spells count for nothing.

Also, not to be forgotten!  If the party is getting whaled on, and a PC or two is close to dying, you definately DON'T want a PC that can do a lot of damage over the long term.  Not needed.  You DO want a PC that can take out the injured baddies, right now.  The party resources saved by stopping a PC death can't be overestimated, and this is something that mass/fast BOOM can help with.

I'm not really on a side here.  Just wanted to point out that having the option to do lots of damage very fast is a very powerful option.  In D&D where attack is easier than defense (in general)...those who hit harder often last longer.

It's the difference between Melf's Acid Arrow and, well, Scorching Ray.  Sometimes you just need stuff dead, immediately.


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## Sorren (Sep 10, 2004)

Exactly.

If it doesn't cause problems, it isn't a problem itself.

Simple calling it broken doesn't make it true.

Has anyone actually had a problem with a psion in the group? Did it detract from the game? Was the sorcerer's player bitter?

Here's a good one...

Was he bitter because the psion was more powerful, or because it was a new and interesting class that did things differently.

Check out this scenerio:

Party consists of a fighter, cleric, rogue, and wizard 

When played from 1st level, the players are used to 12 points of damage to a single enemy being a good hit. When 5th level rolls around, and that first fireball goes off, everyone is jazzed. *BOOM* Look at the power!

Now do they start screaming that the wizard is unbalanced? No. It's expected, but it's still a little shocking to see the wizard obliterate several enemies at once where previously he wasn't that effective. 

Now, same party, but with a psion instead of a wizard.

Psion slings a fully augmented energy missle for the first time. *BOOM* Look at the power!

Now do they start screaming that the psion is unbalanced? Maybe. They've never seen the psion before, it's new, and that much power is as much of a shock when seen for the first time. 

I think it's a matter of perspective. Psionics are different. When I first saw Energy Missle and Mind Thrust, I assumed they were a mistake. Surelly this would be errataed.

Then I played with them as written. Not a problem. Psions are just different, no more of less powerful in the grand scheme of things, just different. They fill a different roll than the sorcerer. They hit hard and fast, and then they're done. 

Is that unbalanced? In a typical encounter, if the psions does 30 points of damage one round, and 0 the next, is that unbalanced compared to the sorcerer who does 20 points the first round, and 20 points the next?

I don't think so. It's just different.

I mean sure, sometimes you need to do damage fast. The psion is your man. Sometimes you need long lasting spellcasting, the sorcerer is your man. You don't ask a fighter to solve your social challenges. You don't ask the bard to be your front line fighter. Don't ask the psion to be a sorcerer, and don't ask the sorcerer to be a psion.


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## Psion (Sep 10, 2004)

I still remember a new player who had never played 3e before joined our group... who was in shock at how much damage the rogue was doing, and was decrying it as unbalanced.


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## Sorren (Sep 10, 2004)

I remember a post years ago regarding rogues getting two sneak attacks from fighting with two weapons. The poster couldn't be convinced that it worked that way. It was simply broken, and stupid, if that was the case. He couldn't get over how it worked in 2nd edition.

Even after I posted the contents of an email I recieved from Monte Cook, explaining the rule, he was convinced that it would make the rogue a replacement for the fighter.

Several years, and several two-weapon fighting rogues later, I still haven't seen a problem. 

I also remember people freaking out about the old 3.0 psionics. Several were convinced that even those psions were too powerful.   

I think some people are suspiscious of anything new. They watch it like a hawk, wating for it to show signs of unbalance. Then, as soon as the thing in question gets an above average result, they decry it broken.

I know my DM freaked the time I rolled 2 10's on a successfull augmented 2d10 mindthrust.   He suddenly forgot about the previous couple of failed attempts (passed saves) and the round or two that I spent doing nothing.

It's like a critical hit. It's not broken if the barbarian, even at 1st level, deals 20 points of damage. But, if the new class/power does it, suddenly everyone is raising eyebrows and forgetting about the previous failed/average attempts.

After a little play, people get used to it and it becomes just another class/power/spell whatever.


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## Spatula (Sep 10, 2004)

two said:
			
		

> Sorren's analysis is leaving me rather ho-hum, if only because I think he's underestimating the power of doing lots of damage fast.
> 
> If the Psion can put down high DC, energy-specified, target-specified, save-specified boom on opponents, and do in three rounds what it would take a socerer to accomplish in 5 (for example), that's very significant.
> 
> ...



This is essentially the argument against 3.0 _haste_.  It allows spellcasters to unload their spells twice as fast, basically making them twice as effective for the duration of the spell.  Sure, a hasted spellcaster burns out fast, but will dominate the battlefield until that point (and when the spellcaster is out of spells, the party will be looking to retreat & recover unless prevented from doing so by story elements).

It's also the reason the Mystic Theurge isn't over-powerful (assuming that one doesn't have access to 3.0 _haste_).  Having tons of spells is nice, but you can't go through them any faster that if you had fewer, and you're probably never going to be able to use all of them on any given day.

Sorren, this thread isn't about the psion being broken, it's about whether the psion (specifically the kineticist) is a better artillery platform than the sorcerer/wizard.  Thanee's probably the only one posting here in this thread that thinks the XPH is broken.


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## Sorren (Sep 10, 2004)

Spatula said:
			
		

> Sorren, this thread isn't about the psion being broken, it's about whether the psion (specifically the kineticist) is a better artillery platform than the sorcerer/wizard.  Thanee's probably the only one posting here in this thread that thinks the XPH is broken.




Then my opinion is simple: 

It depends. 

Short term (2 encounters): Yes.
Long term (3+ encounters): No. 

At 3+ encounters, the _bard_ is a better artillery platform than the psion.


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## Thanee (Sep 10, 2004)

Spatula said:
			
		

> Thanee's probably the only one posting here in this thread that thinks the XPH is broken.




Nah, I think the psion is all-around too powerful (while being the same "type of character") compared to the sorcerer (and also the wizard).

I don't think and never said, the XPH as a whole was broken (just the psion and a dozen other individual things (like a couple powers)). In fact, in some threads I argued _against_ stuff from the XPH being broken (i.e. the Elan).

I have almost no problem with the wilder for example, whom I consider also underpowered compared to the psion.

Bye
Thanee


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## Sorren (Sep 10, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Nah, I think the psion is all-around too powerful (while being the same "type of character") compared to the sorcerer (and also the wizard).




I think that's the heart of your problem. The psion is no more "the same type of character" as a wizard or sorcerer than the cleric is.

For that matter, I wouldn't even call a kineticist and a seer "the same type of character".

If you try to play a psion like a sorcerer, you probably aren't going to have a lot of fun. You'll hit the enemy pretty hard a few times, and then you'll be sitting there bored, watching the other players.

We've all tossed around some extreme examples in this thread. A strategic psion player isn't going to be blowing everything like that. He is going to hold off a bit, conserve his power, and do things more interesting than "Energy Missle, Energy Missle, Energy Missle, Energy Missle, Energy Missle"

In a realistic situation, the psion won't always augment to the max, despite the fact that the spellcasters always scale to the max.

At least, I know I don't.


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## two (Sep 10, 2004)

*Good point*



			
				Spatula said:
			
		

> This is essentially the argument against 3.0 _haste_.  It allows spellcasters to unload their spells twice as fast, basically making them twice as effective for the duration of the spell.  Sure, a hasted spellcaster burns out fast, but will dominate the battlefield until that point (and when the spellcaster is out of spells, the party will be looking to retreat & recover unless prevented from doing so by story elements).
> 
> It's also the reason the Mystic Theurge isn't over-powerful (assuming that one doesn't have access to 3.0 _haste_).  Having tons of spells is nice, but you can't go through them any faster that if you had fewer, and you're probably never going to be able to use all of them on any given day.
> 
> Sorren, this thread isn't about the psion being broken, it's about whether the psion (specifically the kineticist) is a better artillery platform than the sorcerer/wizard.  Thanee's probably the only one posting here in this thread that thinks the XPH is broken.





Very good point.  I was definately in the "3.0 haste is an absurd 3rd level spell" camp, and we all know what happened to that spell in 3.5.  I don't think many people have house-ruled 3.0 haste into 3.5 campaigns.  (some have, I'm sure, not many).   I honestly do think 3.5 is a better game with haste nerfed, without doubt.

I guess the question is (which I'm not clear on, really):  how MUCH damage can a Psion really do in 3 rounds?

For example, what's a Psion's damage output for 3 rounds of combat, 3 times per day (9 total rounds)?

Is it really significantly higher than a sorcerer's 3 rounds of owie?  (by a significant margin)?

Unless my math is bad, by the way, a +2 or +3 advantage on DC of psionic stuff vs. spell stuff should be "calculable".  I'm no whiz, but...

If the fireball spell is DC 18,
and the Psion effect is DC 20,

doesn't that mean that 2/20 of the time the Psion will do full damage, while the spell only does half damage, so add something like 1/10 * full psionic damage to the psionic damage average output?  Plus maybe up the DC by 1 or 2 to account for energy-type specification and save specification (just for the math).

Or something like that?  I'm sure I screwed it up.   Ignore me.


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## Sorren (Sep 10, 2004)

Look back a few pages, I detailed 35 rounds of combat.

I'll post a bit here to save you the effort though.

*10th level Kineticist, Int 16*

Round 1: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage, Reflex save DC:20
Round 2: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage, Reflex save DC:20
Round 3: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage, Reflex save DC:20

Total Damage: 135

*10th level Sorcerer, Cha 16*
Round 1: Empowered Fire Ball (5th level Slot); 10d6 x 150% = 52 points of Fire Damage, Reflex save DC:16
Round 2: Empowered Fire Ball (5th level Slot); 10d6 x 150% = 52 points of Fire Damage, Reflex save DC:16
Round 3: Empowered Fire Ball (5th level Slot); 10d6 x 150% = 52 points of Fire Damage, Reflex save DC:16

Total Damage: 156

The Sorcerer does more damage on average (21 pts.), but is required to take the Empower Spell feat, and his save DCs are lower. 

I'd say this puts the psion in the lead. The damage is lower, but he is probably going to hit more effectivly with it because of the better DCs and the ability to swap up energy types. (But remember, if he goes to anything but cold or fire, his total damage drops by another 30 points.)

This can go on for 11 rounds, at which time the psions is done. The sorcerer still has roughly 18-24 more rounds of spells, all of which scale freely.


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## Nail (Sep 10, 2004)

Sorren said:
			
		

> Has anyone actually had a problem with a psion in the group? Did it detract from the game? Was the sorcerer's player bitter?



These are rhetorical questions, right?   

Lemme put it another way: I notice psions appear in smack-down threads an awful lot.  Not too many sorcerers make that cut......

BTW: what lvl is your psion?  Point buy or rolled?  Others in your groupare what classes?  ....just curious.....


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## Nail (Sep 10, 2004)

Sorren said:
			
		

> .... but he is probably going to hit more effectivly with it because of the better DCs and the ability to swap up energy types. (But remember, if he goes to anything but cold or fire, his total damage drops by another 30 points.)



And if the creature is resistant to fire, the sorcerer is in even bigger trouble, empowered or no.

Moreover, the sorcerer (using metamagic) can't use his move action to get out of tactically bad spots, while the psion (no metamagic necessary!) can.

In the Big Boom category, psion wins, hands down.  Hence the title of this thread.


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## Sorren (Sep 10, 2004)

Nail said:
			
		

> These are rhetorical questions, right?




Not at all. You had a bad experience?



> Lemme put it another way: I notice psions appear in smack-down threads an awful lot.  Not too many sorcerers make that cut......




A lot of fighters and barbarians do. They broken too? 
You also don't see many wizard smackdown threads. I wouldn't call them weak.



> [BTW: what lvl is your psion?  Point buy or rolled?  Others in your groupare what classes?  ....just curious.....




5th lvl Elan Kineticist
Rolled (18 Int)
Group: Human Cleric, Halfling Sorcerer/Rogue, Half-Orc Monk, Elven Ranger


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## Sorren (Sep 10, 2004)

Nail said:
			
		

> And if the creature is resistant to fire, the sorcerer is in even bigger trouble, empowered or no.




Feats can fix that, but we won't go there.



> Moreover, the sorcerer (using metamagic) can't use his move action to get out of tactically bad spots, while the psion (no metamagic necessary!) can.
> 
> In the Big Boom category, psion wins, hands down.  Hence the title of this thread.




I agree. 100%
The psion is the master of the big boom.... for 10 rounds, roughly 2 encounters. If the psion wants to last more than 10 rounds, he'll have to lighten up, do less damage, and put himself on the same level as the sorcerer.

And even then, he'll be lucky to make it 16 rounds total. The sorcerer will be going strong long after.


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## Mouseferatu (Sep 10, 2004)

To answer the question asked above...

Yes, this thread was inspired by actual game play, not pure hypothetical exercise.

Now, to be fair, the game in question didn't involve a kineticist and a sorcerer. It involved a kineticist and a wizard, who I think we'll _all_ agree with run out of spells faster.

But the fact that the psion was doing _remarkably_ more damage in a given round is what sparked the discussion in the first place.

I agree with the conclusion that, over the course of time, the classes come pretty close to evening out. Only problem is, no group I've ever played with regularly had more than two or three fights between rest periods. And most games I played in had creatures immuen or resistant to specific energy types, which makes the psion's ability to change energy forms on the fly a potent ability that I don't feel has been adequately account for in this discussion.

Again, part of it is just playing style, and I'll admit that when viewed from the "back to the dungeon" scenario, the discrepency is less than I thought it was initially. I think it still exists, though.


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## Sorren (Sep 10, 2004)

I think style has a lot to do with it. 
If you are in a dungeon where you can enter a room, kill the monsters, sleep and do it again tomorrow, the psion will really shine.

I was put in a situation recently though where we couldn't rest, more enemies could come by at any time. I was really hurting and had to spend a lot of time sitting on the sidelines to conserve power for when it was really needed. (Or boredom got to me. )

But yea, if you have a sorcerer and a psion in the same group, and you are playing in a game where there is a rest break after every fight, it's going to suck for the sorcerer if he is focused on damage dealing spells.


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## Thanee (Sep 10, 2004)

two said:
			
		

> I guess the question is (which I'm not clear on, really):  how MUCH damage can a Psion really do in 3 rounds?




Off the top of my head... At 10th level using a random Energy spell at full augmentation (10d6+10 or 45 on average) plus another two quickened (Schism and Quicken) ones at 6 levels less (4d6+4 or 18 on average x2).

That makes a possible 243 points in three rounds at 10th level (with one spell being manifested in preparation).

Or, without preparation, 180 if you manifest Schism on the first round. At 13th level with quickened Schism it increases some more (beyond the additional dice for higher level), that would be 301.5 damage. At 20th level we look at 522 damage that way.

Going for lower PP expenditure, a single empowered Energy Ball per round would (at 10th level) deal 162 damage. At this level using Quicken doesn't really pay off yet, but later it does. At 20th level this would only do 364.5 damage as compared to the 522 up there.


The 10th level sorcerer can do 156 with three empowered Fireballs, but using less resources total, tho more high level resources. At 13th level the sorcerer will still do 156 with three empowered fireballs. At 20th level using empowered Delayed Blast Fireballs, the sorcerer would do 315 damage.

Bye
Thanee


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## green slime (Sep 10, 2004)

I dunno about this idea of 3 short 3-4 rounds of battle scenarios per day. I have IMC consistently had battles last longer than 10 rounds, some have even stretched up well beyond 30 rounds.

I guess I just manage to set up scenarios where mooks (and masters) keep rushing in, and the set piece battle turns into a running slog match across the scenery. I have 11th level characters resorting to _Cure Minor Wounds_ just to keep companions from passing on, because they have no more spells in their repetoire left. I am absolutely certain that a Maxed-booming Psion would sit there with their xbow and quiver behind a barrel of flour before too long...

At the levels we are discussing, a wizard at least, is far more likely to have alternative solutions to the problem at hand than just [fire] spells. 

In a campaign where the players are uncertain as to where the focal point of the battle is (or will be), it is prudent for the artillerists to hold their big guns until they are certain that it is needed.


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## green slime (Sep 10, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Off the top of my head... At 10th level using a random Energy spell at full augmentation (10d6+10 or 45 on average) plus another two quickened (Schism and Quicken) ones at 6 levels less (4d6+4 or 18 on average x2).
> 
> That makes a possible 243 points in three rounds at 10th level (with one spell being manifested in preparation).
> 
> ...




And how many people here think that the inclusion of _Schism_ in the XPH is a good thing? Given the nerf _Haste_ received? 

Personally, I allow _schism_ because I also allow 3.0's _haste_ IMC. The best use we see is hasting a fighter for constant, reliable damage output and battlefield maneuverability. Second is on a cleric, so they can get around and heal quickly, and lay a little extra _flame strike_ or _dispel magic_.


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## Thanee (Sep 10, 2004)

green slime said:
			
		

> And how many people here think that the inclusion of _Schism_ in the XPH is a good thing? Given the nerf _Haste_ received?




Everyone except me? 

Last time I said Schism was not a good idea, that was about it, since it is sooo bad with 6 manifester levels below your maximum. *shrug*

Bye
Thanee


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## Sorren (Sep 10, 2004)

Round 1: Schism (7 pps) + Gain Focus

Round 2: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage 
+ Schism (4th level psion) Energy Missile (3+1=4pps); 3d6+3+1d6+1 = 21 points of Fire Damage 
+ Quickened Energy Missile (3+1=4pps); 3d6+3+1d6+1 = 21 points of Fire Damage 
+ Gain Focus

Round 3: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage 
+ Schism (4th level psion) Energy Missile (3+1=4pps); 3d6+3+1d6+1 = 21 points of Fire Damage 
+ Quickened Energy Missile (3+1=4pps); 3d6+3+1d6+1 = 21 points of Fire Damage 
+ Gain Focus

Round 4: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage 
+ Schism (4th level psion) Energy Missile (3+1=4pps); 3d6+3+1d6+1 = 21 points of Fire Damage 
+ Quickened Energy Missile (3+1=4pps); 3d6+3+1d6+1 = 21 points of Fire Damage 
+ Gain Focus


Total Damage: 174 Points over 3 rounds, 261 over 4 rounds
Total Cost: 43 power points over 3 rounds, 61 power points over 4 rounds

That’s 87 points of damage and 18 power points for every round after.
A 10th level psion could do it 5 times max.

In three rounds, it burns up almost half your power points, but it can be done. It assumes you will be able to retain our focus each round, which isn’t guaranteed and it requires three feats for the kineticist (Expanded Knowledge: Schism, Quicken Power, Psionic Meditation).

That’s a lot of feats and a lot of power points just to be able to pull it off, and it still isn’t guaranteed that you’ll even make your check to Focus. 

Though I would discourage it, I’d allow it simply because of the cost of trying to do it.

However, if you think it’s too powerful, just rule that the action taken by the secondary mind created by schism is a free action. You can’t do a free action and manifest a quickened power.

I personally don't have a problem with schism. It's costs are high and the results are weak. It's really only effective for maintaining concentration on two powers at once or for uber combos like the one above, which I personally wouldn't use.


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## Thanee (Sep 10, 2004)

@green slime: I absolutely agree, as I have said before, that tallying up damage isn't very meaningful. I just wanted to show some numbers, what can actually be done.

Bye
Thanee


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## Droid101 (Sep 10, 2004)

green slime said:
			
		

> And how many people here think that the inclusion of _Schism_ in the XPH is a good thing? Given the nerf _Haste_ received?



Ohhh, I get to do an extra Mind Thrust for 1d10 damage, ooooh.[/sarcasm]


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## Sorren (Sep 10, 2004)

Droid101 said:
			
		

> Ohhh, I get to do an extra Mind Thrust for 1d10 damage, ooooh.[/sarcasm]




I.AM.A.GOD!!!

 

It's actually a handy power, but it's costs (-6 levels, a feat, a power slot, the cost to manifest schism, the cost to manifest the new power, and a round to manifest schism) keep it from being an uber-power.


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## Thanee (Sep 10, 2004)

At 10th level it certainly isn't very hot.  But at 13th+ level it starts to become a force that easily makes the difference in a fight. And the costs aren't that high, really, since you do not have to pay the 6 level difference as you have for Quicken Power, it's actually superior to Quicken even, which is quite good at higher levels already. And it can be done in addition to Quicken, too.

Well, I think it's really a pretty scary power at high levels, where speed slowly becomes the most important factor in combat.

It's only really relevant at those high levels, however. Even at moderate levels its power is rather limited.

Bye
Thanee


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## drothgery (Sep 10, 2004)

Spatula said:
			
		

> The psions run out of PP all the time in my game.



... and that's why Aral [my artillery-focused kineticist in Spatula's game] knows how to make power stones. Though I'm guessing you're trying to design major encounters to use up almost all of our resources.



			
				Spatula said:
			
		

> Psions are better artillery than either the wizard or the sorcerer, which is a shame. It's also a big disconnect from the flavor of psionics in previous editions. If I could do it all over again, I would ban all the energy powers, and move some of the better TK powers into the kineticist list to fill the holes that would cause.



I'm not at all sure kineticists are better artillery than wizards, or, more importantly, than evokers. They're certainly better than Sorcerers, but Sorcerers are underpowered anyway.

One thing, though; someone mentioned that psions were limited to using a single metapsionic feat per power. Couldn't a psion with the _Psicrystal Containment_ feat (which lets you hold a second psionic focus in your psicrystal) use two, or did I miss a rule that would prevent you from doing that? Not that this would make sense for anyone except a very high-level psion; empower power isn't better than a straight augmentation until 8th level, and I'm not sure where the break-even point would be on a double augment vs. a single-augment.


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## Elder-Basilisk (Sep 10, 2004)

Scion said:
			
		

> Thanee said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




There are very major differences that you're ignoring here. The concentration check is the same for sor/wiz/clr and psion characters casting spells or manifesting powers in a grapple. However, a pinned psion is at no disadvantage in terms of manifesting powers. A pinned sor/wiz/clr cannot cast spells with ANY components.

When "merely" in a grapple, a sor/wiz/clr cannot cast spells with somatic components or material components not in hand. (Which is, in most cases, 90% of said Sor/Wiz/Clr's spells). The psion is not hindered beyond the concentration check.

And speaking of the "hefty" concentration check. . . well, it isn't that hefty. It's very difficult at low levels. By mid levels, it's doable roughly 40-50% of the time. By level 14 or so, it will often be trivial. Like a creature with SLAs, a psion in a grapple can simply manifest his powers. A sor/wiz/clr needs to get out of the grapple pronto in order to contribute to the combat. (I once ran a combat of an advanced death slaad and two blue slaad against a 12th level party. In the second round, they were all caught in an Evard's black tentacles. . . and kept on blasting the party with fingers of death and chaos hammers and lightning bolts anyway since they were better off taking their chances on the concentration checks than trying to break out of the grapple (and possibly failing). For psions, it would be the same. For sor/wiz/clr--heck no! They either get out of the grapple or they're dead meat).



> While it may be easier for the psion than for the mage, it is still a very far cry from 'immunity'. Especially since several of the spells a mage is most likely to attempt while in a grapple are vocal only, so adding in still spell isnt terribly difficult (have the rod in hand, prep it ahead of time, whatever).




The reason that the spells a mage is most likely to attempt while in a grapple are verbal only is because THOSE ARE PRACTICALLY THE ONLY SPELLS HE CAN CAST. And, of course, if he's pinned, he can't do anything at all so he has to either get out of the grapple or die. A grappled sor/wiz/clr is out of the fight and has to take their actions to get out of the grapple and back into the fight. (Not coincidentally, those verbal only spells you mention as the most likely to be cast while in a grapple are dimension door and teleport).



> Unless one is a sorc of course, but then there are many such problems with the sorc. No need to make one class worse because of the mistakes with another.




Sorcerors are actually a lot better off in a grapple than wizards. If it comes down to it, a sorceror with still spell can apply to any spell he darn well feels like on the fly. Grappled by Evard's Black Tentacles? Well, if he can't get out, at least he can make a DC 24 concentration check and blast away with stilled fireballs. Pinned? Well, he can try to cast a silent dimension door. Wizards can prep a dimension door or a stilled spell but if they need more than one or if it won't work for some reason (hit with a dimensional anchor spell, etc), they're out of options.

Grappling is probably the biggest weakness of ordinary spellcasters. (That's why a lot of higher level wizards prep a dimension door, a stilled blink, or some other such effect to prevent the enemy from taking them out of combat entirely with a simple and easily available manuever). For Psions, it's not nearly that kind of an Achilles heel.


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## Thanee (Sep 10, 2004)

drothgery said:
			
		

> One thing, though; someone mentioned that psions were limited to using a single metapsionic feat per power. Couldn't a psion with the Psicrystal Containment feat (which lets you hold a second psionic focus in your psicrystal) use two, or did I miss a rule that would prevent you from doing that?




You can do that, of course. It has been mentioned by someone (Scion?) also, I think.

The cost to get there is pretty high, tho, and probably not really worth it, unless you want to use plenty feats, that utilize focus, but that's not a very reasonable strategy, anyways. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Sep 10, 2004)

Elder-Basilisk said:
			
		

> Sorcerors are actually a lot better off in a grapple than wizards. If it comes down to it, a sorceror with still spell can apply to any spell he darn well feels like on the fly.




Actually not so, since that takes a full round action and they are limited to casting spells as a standard action in a grapple.

Other than that, you got exactly the point, of course, and why I think it's totally to mention this as a seperate advantage for psions, as they are practically "immune" to the primary anti-caster tactic.

Bye
Thanee


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## green slime (Sep 10, 2004)

A DC20 Concentration check is guaranteed at 10th level.

13+2 (Con) +10 from Third Eye of Concentration.... Of course if this is too expensive, you could grab the Item Creation feat and create it yourself. Possibly even creating a smaller version (+5?)


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## green slime (Sep 10, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> At 10th level it certainly isn't very hot.  But at 13th+ level it starts to become a force that easily makes the difference in a fight. And the costs aren't that high, really, since you do not have to pay the 6 level difference as you have for Quicken Power, it's actually superior to Quicken even, which is quite good at higher levels already. And it can be done in addition to Quicken, too.
> 
> Well, I think it's really a pretty scary power at high levels, where speed slowly becomes the most important factor in combat.
> 
> ...




NOOOO!!!!!!!!

We are agreeing on something!!!! 

AARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!! The inhumainty of it all!!! Where will it all end!!!!! WHERE ARE ALL THE CHILDRENNNN???!!!


*runs screaming into the distance*


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## Sorren (Sep 10, 2004)

We can all at least agree that the psion isn't as powerful as the cleric.


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## Scion (Sep 10, 2004)

Elder-Basilisk said:
			
		

> There are very major differences that you're ignoring here.




I didnt ignore it, it was part of the second part that you quoted yourself!

Still, grappling is a big bad for casters all over. At sufficiently high levels all casters should have the ability to cast a few spells while in a grapple. If they do not think ahead for this eventuality then that is their own problem.

Psions have it easier sure, but not that much easier than a wizard (sorcs have it the worst, but that is one of their pitfalls).


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## Droid101 (Sep 10, 2004)

When will this thread die...  :: pokes it with stick ::


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## Timely Drought (Sep 11, 2004)

Sorren said:
			
		

> However, if you think it’s too powerful, just rule that the action taken by the secondary mind created by schism is a free action. You can’t do a free action and manifest a quickened power.



You mean a swift action?




			
				Sorren said:
			
		

> I personally don't have a problem with schism. It's costs are high and the results are weak. It's really only effective for maintaining concentration on two powers at once or for uber combos like the one above, which I personally wouldn't use.



How about combining Schism with Fission? Would the fissioned double be able to manifest Schism if you've manifested it with your original self?

It seems like Schism and Fission can cause havoc when the PCs can plan ahead and get the drop on the BBEG when fully rested and buffed.


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## Thanee (Sep 11, 2004)

To get back to something, I'd like to explain a bit more... I have done a little picture (quite crappy, I know, but it works, I guess ) to show what I mean.

The picture shows how the power of the psion's (fully augmented) powers (blue) and the sorcerer's (fully scaled) spells (red) compare at 10th level, including their respective costs (PP / slots).

_Sidenote:_ The comparison at 10th level does favor the sorcerer already, a fair comparison would be at 10th _and_ 11th level, where the sorcerer would surely lose some ground, lacking the 6th level spells!

The scale on the vertical axis is spell/power level times caster/manifester level (capped at 5 for 1st and 2nd level), which should roughly show the relative power level of a single spell/power. On the horizontal axis the number of spell slots or _fully augmented_ manifestations is put into relation.







What can be seen is, that the total area of blue and red are about even, which makes them roughly equal in terms of total power in a day. The psion has more powerful effects, while the sorcerer lasts longer.

The problem in this comparison, and which is also the problem of Sorren's damage comparison, is, that the sorcerer's advantage comes into play _only_, if there are enough situations to actually use those spells, if the whole horizontal distance in the picture is used up, whereas the psion can make use of the full potential pretty much every day. Surely, this depends on playing style, but it's clear, that the psion is far more likely to bring the full potential to bear, since the sorcerer is required to get into more situations where spellcasting is needed to do so and this simply won't happen on every single day. If you cut out part of the picture from the right, you'll only remove from the sorcerer, not from the psion.

Furthermore, this is only one option for the psion. There are plenty options to stretch this total power out further. The psion can also try to mimick the sorcerer and manifest powers only so far, that they come even with the spells (which in most cases is less than the maximum, even for some 5th level powers). When doing this, however, the psion will not be be able to fully reach the sorcerer's potential. Roughly 75% is a reasonable estimate (which I have tested against the spells my 10th level sorceress has cast in the last gaming session, which was pretty much a full alotment of daily spells, using powers which would achieve the same or higher effect). This flexibility further makes sure, that the psion will be able to bring the full potential to bear, whereas the sorcerer is still limited to the slots and can only use them in exactly the way shown in the picture.

Now, how this applies to a specific group has a lot to do with playing style, as has been mentioned already. If a party has only few encounters, the psion wins hands down with no contest. If the party has multiple encounters, the sorcerer gets even, or exceeds the psion somewhat, as the psion will then be forced to go for a less aggressive approach, naturally.

Basically, this means, that to achieve balance between the way those two classes cast/manifest their spells/powers, the party has to be challenged with many encounters each day (to a degree, this is also true for spellcasters versus non-spellcasters, but the psion makes this even more extreme).

If you go back to THIS post and look at the first half (roughly), the initial comparison is what I have tried to picture here. I think that at this point the psion and sorcerer are about equal, each with their own advantages and disadvantages.

However, if you then look at the second half ot the post (the +/- list), then you'll see why I think, the psion is a lot more powerful as the sorcerer, since that stuff has all not been included in the initial comparison (the flexibility (of PP distribution) has been mentioned here).

And that's why I don't see how these two classes can be balanced.

Comparing the psion with the wizard goes a similar way, tho many items on the list will then be irrelevant, as the wizard has them as well, however, the ability of the psion (as the sorcerer) to spontaneously manifest powers, coupled with a power list, which is _a lot_ closer to the content of a wizard's spellbook than the sorcerer's spells known, and the fact, that the wizard has fewer spells per day, will also leave the wizard behind.

Now this does not necessarily have to be only a problem with the psion. Many people consider the sorcerer underpowered. But in my experience, while they might be slightly behind the wizard, they surely are not _that_ much behind as they are obviously, when compared to the psion.

I hope my thoughts become a bit more clear this way. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Sep 11, 2004)

green slime said:
			
		

> We are agreeing on something!!!!




Actually, I had the impression, that we do agree on many of the details, just not fully on the conclusions. 

Bye
Thanee


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## green slime (Sep 11, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Actually, I had the impression, that we do agree on many of the details, just not fully on the conclusions.
> 
> Bye
> Thanee




Spoken like a true Vampire.


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## Elder-Basilisk (Sep 11, 2004)

OK, I'll take your word for the fact that you're not ignoring it and just say that you're dramatically misunderstanding the significance of the difference.

Grappling=dead sor/wiz unless he can find a way out.
Grappling=slightly harder concentration check for a psion.

It is "that much" easier by mid-high levels. (Much earlier if you allow the 3rd eye: Concentration--if you do, grapple hardly hinders psions at all but wizards are still generally in the "escape or die" zone).



			
				Scion said:
			
		

> I didnt ignore it, it was part of the second part that you quoted yourself!
> 
> Still, grappling is a big bad for casters all over. At sufficiently high levels all casters should have the ability to cast a few spells while in a grapple. If they do not think ahead for this eventuality then that is their own problem.
> 
> Psions have it easier sure, but not that much easier than a wizard (sorcs have it the worst, but that is one of their pitfalls).


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## Scion (Sep 11, 2004)

Grapple = bad for all 1/2 BAB classes. If they dont have a way around grappling then they are dead, either way.

Psion is slightly better off, but dead is still dead.


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## Spatula (Sep 11, 2004)

drothgery said:
			
		

> Though I'm guessing you're trying to design major encounters to use up almost all of our resources.



I have learned that if I want to challenge the party in a fight I have to throw enough stuff at you guys to drain off your character's PP.  Although it's not so bad now that there's only one kineticist in the party.



> One thing, though; someone mentioned that psions were limited to using a single metapsionic feat per power. Couldn't a psion with the _Psicrystal Containment_ feat (which lets you hold a second psionic focus in your psicrystal) use two, or did I miss a rule that would prevent you from doing that?



Sure, you could do it, but it would be a once-per-battle trick unless you've got a spare round to regain both your focus and your psicyrstal's.

EDIT to add: I think Psicrystal Containment is more useful for a backup focus at the lower levels, before the DC 20 Concentration check can be made reliably (or before you have Psi Meditation, which can't be taken until 5th level at the earliest).


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## Thanee (Sep 11, 2004)

Hehe, damn, why did I knew that this would happen with the darn attachments... 

Let's try that again...

Bye
Thanee


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## Dthamilaye (Sep 11, 2004)

Uhh... hello.

Don't know if I get my head cut off right way for sticking it into this .

I have to admit that I skipped pages 4-12, don't have too much extra time at work. So my idea could have already surfaced before. If so, I'm sorry for repeating it.

I don't see the Psion as overpowered. They do have some things that (IMHO) are bit over the top, but (IMHO) do not affect the game play THAT much.
Mostly the no somatic, verbal or material components and the possibility to use any armour.

But:

Have you considered the PrCs at all? What happens when the Psion vs Sorcerer -debate is done with PrCs? After all, who plays bare sorcerer for 20 levels?
Archmage costs a lot to get into. 3 feats, One of them quite useless. However, EVERY sorcerer I have seen, has tried to get into Archmage. That goes for all wizard too btw. There the sorcerer gets the 'Any elemental damage at will', the super-uber ability "Arcane Fire' (Yes, this is one of the   most powerful abilities I know for caster), and 3 other nice things. Add in any other 10 level PrC and sorcerer looks much better.

For Psion player, what PrCs there are (in the books, not in some web-enchantment or Dragon), that are of any use?

Maybe my opinion is biased, but I think Archmage is kind of a default PrC that every arcane caster strives to get. Psion has no such PrCs, as even 1 lost manifester level really cuts into his PPs and powers.

Of course, if the WotC makes Archmage/Hierophant -style PrC to Psion too, then this point of view becomes void.

Thank you.


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## Thanee (Sep 11, 2004)

Well, the Elemental Mastery will just make them get even on that part, since the psion has it from the start, and Arcane Fire, I never really realized why this ability is seen as so powerful?



> _Arcane Fire (Su):_ The archmage gains the ability to change arcane spell energy into arcane fire, manifesting it as a bolt of raw magical energy. The bolt is a ranged touch attack with long range (400 feet + 40 feet/level of archmage) that deals 1d6 points of damage per class level of the archmage plus 1d6 points of damage per level of the spell used to create the effect. This ability costs one 9th-level spell slot.




It's available at 17th level (18th for a sorcerer) earliest.
It allows you to do *at most* 14d6 to a single target using a *9th* level slot (which could do things like Meteor Swarm or Time Stop or Shapechange or Gate). With a 2nd level slot you do 7d6 as opposed to the 12d6 from Scorching Ray, tho this is fair given the high range and no energy resistance trouble.

It's a good ability for sure, but especially the sorcerer can use damaging spells instead, it's better for the wizard I think, who can then neglect offensive preparations to a degree, which is the bigger advantage of this ability. It's still a weak attack in relation to the power used to fuel it.

Then there is Spell Power, a good ability, since it let's you scale spells even further (caps are still a hindrance, however), but compare this to Overchannel/Talented, which the psion can _exceed_ the power level of their powers with (not only the manifester level). With powers like Astral Construct you can do something, which is more than just a higher manifester level, an 11th level psion can manifest the equivalent of a 7th level power this way already, altho the highest they can learn is 6th level still, using the right powers, of course!

Anyways...

So far, in all games I have played, I have seen only one person aim for the archmage, and that was a 3.0 wizard. I have considered it for my sorceress, but realized, that the price to get there will be too high for too little benefit (for my character specifically).

But that aside, yes, PrC options are better for arcanists (much like their spell options) right now, for the sole reason, that there are more books on them. At least in 3.0 there was a lot of stuff for psionic characters on the WotC site, I can only guess that this will be true for 3.5 also (they already started adding stuff there, so this is not that much of a stretch ).

Bye
Thanee


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## Shadowdweller (Sep 11, 2004)

> Then there is Spell Power, a good ability, since it let's you scale spells even further (caps are still a hindrance, however), but compare this to Overchannel/Talented, which the psion can exceed the power level of their powers with (not only the manifester level).



 At the cost of psionic focus or a fair bit of damage depending on the power's level.  And also note that the sorceror can use metamagic rods to empower, maximize, or quicken her highest level damage spells (provided she has invested in such rods), which is often significantly better than mere overchanneling.


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## Thanee (Sep 11, 2004)

Yep, metamagic rods are also something, that doesn't sit right with me entirely. And I think there are many people having problems with the high end versions of those. But I'm sure you could do the same with metapsionics and some item creation feat, so that's hardly an issue between the classes.

Bye
Thanee


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## Elder-Basilisk (Sep 11, 2004)

Not really. A mid-high level Psion is better off being grappled by the barbarian than having the barbarian beat his head in with a greatsword. His offensive capability is not significantly reduced and the barbarian will deal less damage than he would otherwise. He's also less vulnerable to missile weapon fire than he would otherwise be. That's not true of a sor/wiz. The primary disadvantages for a psion being grappled is the more difficult concentration check and the vulnerability to sneak attacks. It's simply not too much of a disadvantage for him.



			
				Scion said:
			
		

> Grapple = bad for all 1/2 BAB classes. If they dont have a way around grappling then they are dead, either way.
> 
> Psion is slightly better off, but dead is still dead.


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## Thanee (Sep 12, 2004)

Yep, in our last session the barbarian (10th level) grappled an opposing wizard, who happened to not have any Dimension Door prepared (which made sense given the situation, however) and thus was _completely_ helpless. However, the damage the barbarian dealt per round was easily cut to one third or so! Still a good deal, considering, that he was fairly low on HP already and the last spell aimed at him was a Disintegrate. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Scion (Sep 12, 2004)

Elder-Basilisk said:
			
		

> Not really.




Being grappled means at least one concentration check made a round to get that power off, they are very vulnerable to outside influences, and there are other penalties as well (anyone know if grappling damage counts as continual or not?).

::shrugs:: I have said from the beginning that the psion is better off, but any caster caught in such a situation without some sort of plan is in for a world of hurt.

Dead is still dead.

Besides, being grappled by a pc class generally isnt the worst case scenario, it isnt even always in the running (except for specialized builds). Even a normal caster type can be more or less ok with even a modicrum of thought ahead of time (which if they dont do they deserve to die).


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## Thanee (Sep 12, 2004)

Scion said:
			
		

> (anyone know if grappling damage counts as continual or not?).




Nope, tho constrict might be argueable, that's pretty close I think.



> I have said from the beginning that the psion is better off, but any caster caught in such a situation without some sort of plan is in for a world of hurt.




That's all which is being said, in a pin or grapple+silence or combined with dimensional anchor, the wizard needs to have Silent Spell (an otherwise useless feat for wizards) and prepare a silent Dimension Door instead of some other spell (and if the Concentration check on that _single_ spell fails, the wizard is out of options already), the sorcerer is unable to get out there, anyways, while the psion is not hindered in such a strong way, since Concentration checks are doable, and there is no restriction on useable powers _at all_ (arcanists can use Dimension Door or Teleport, that's it pretty much). It's not as good as not being grappled, of course, tho damage is usually lower, so it's not that much worse either, and once Concentration is high enough, which it should be, anyways, as it is needed all the time (even more so for psions, I think they need Concentration to regain focus, too), the only limitation becomes neglectible.

Bye
Thanee


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## nimisgod (Sep 12, 2004)

Wanted to add that it doesn't always have to be a powerful damage dealing brute that grapples a spellcaster to prevent spellcasting/manifesting. 

If a goblin or an owlbear grappled my 10th level sorc or wiz, then I can't use any of my spells with somatic components. Were I a psion, I could still use practically any power available to me.

The point is that arcanists are *greviously * hindered by any kind of grappling attack. To psions, the quality of the grappler is actually considered. Even if I were grappled I could still help the party with my powers instead of free myself. With the arcanist, however, you aren't given a lot of options...and whilst grappled, are useless to the party (except by making the grappler vulnerable).


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## Dthamilaye (Sep 12, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Well, the Elemental Mastery will just make them get even on that part, since the psion has it from the start, and Arcane Fire, I never really realized why this ability is seen as so powerful?
> 
> It's available at 17th level (18th for a sorcerer) earliest.
> It allows you to do *at most* 14d6 to a single target using a *9th* level slot (which could do things like Meteor Swarm or Time Stop or Shapechange or Gate). With a 2nd level slot you do 7d6 as opposed to the 12d6 from Scorching Ray, tho this is fair given the high range and no energy resistance trouble.
> ...




First of all, it is a Supernatural ability. Ie, no AoO, long range, no SR roll. It is not elemental damage, so resistances don't work against it. In fact, it is unlisted damage, so no protections work against it. It does not have a save either. If the caster succeeds in the RTA, he can hurt ANYTHING with ANY protections and ANY SR (like golems).  RTA is pretty easy too as the touch AC of CR18+ monsters is usually not that high. If the hit is really wanted, True Strike helps with that, removing concealment miss chance too.
An extra perk for wizards is that they can use otherwise useless spells for damage.

I don't know any other ability in the game that would be better at getting through of all defences than Arcane fire. No matter the saves, SR, protections, spell turning spells, Absorption magics, or anything else outside full Antimagic field, Arcane fire does the job. (If the RTA succeeds). 



> So far, in all games I have played, I have seen only one person aim for the archmage, and that was a 3.0 wizard. I have considered it for my sorceress, but realized, that the price to get there will be too high for too little benefit (for my character specifically).




The price is steep, especially for the sorcerer (as he must take the different school of spells too), but the powers of the AcM are so powerful that (IMHO) it is worth it in the long run. If the 10 class PrC before AcM was something like Incantatrix, or any other PrC that gives bonus metamagic feats, then the price of AcM is somewhat lessened, as 2-3 bonus feats help a lot.



> But that aside, yes, PrC options are better for arcanists (much like their spell options) right now, for the sole reason, that there are more books on them. At least in 3.0 there was a lot of stuff for psionic characters on the WotC site, I can only guess that this will be true for 3.5 also (they already started adding stuff there, so this is not that much of a stretch ).




Yeah, I hope they make some nice PrCs for psionics too. On the other hand, at the moment it is very easy to plan the advancement of a Psion, no excessive thinking required   .


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## Scion (Sep 12, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> That's all which is being said




This is such a marginal situation to begin with that it seems nearly like a nonbonus anyway.

If sometime the mage is in single combat (seems like a rarity), with no one around to help, with no items which will help, with no spells prepared to help, and with no other backup plans then, at that time, they are dead.

Sure, the psion is better off, in that his powers can still possibly be used, if they are helpful in that situation.

Once again though, anyone who would be incredibly toast in that situation and doesnt make plans deserves to die. There are just too many ways to get around such a situation.


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## Thanee (Sep 12, 2004)

Dthamilaye said:
			
		

> First of all, it is a Supernatural ability. Ie, no AoO, long range, no SR roll. It is not elemental damage, so resistances don't work against it. In fact, it is unlisted damage, so no protections work against it. It does not have a save either. If the caster succeeds in the RTA, he can hurt ANYTHING with ANY protections and ANY SR (like golems).




Yep, that's why it is good. Yet in most situations, spells are still better than that, as the effect is still much weaker than that of a spell of the same level (except the very low levels, where AF is probably actually better than the spell itself, but that doesn't really say much, since low level spells are next to worthless at these levels anyways, offensively).

It's a "limited use" ability, which only offers something in rare circumstances (when your other spells won't work).

Spell Resistance is more of a nuisance in most cases, not really a hindrance, as there are enough ways to get past it (starting with Spell Penetration and spells which are not hindered by SR).



> I don't know any other ability in the game that would be better at getting through of all defences than Arcane fire. No matter the saves, SR, protections, spell turning spells, Absorption magics, or anything else outside full Antimagic field, Arcane fire does the job. (If the RTA succeeds).




Yep, it's very reliable for sure. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Sep 12, 2004)

@Scion:

Even in a party (standard four)...

Grappling the wizard = Party efficiency -25%
Grappling the psion = Party efficiency -1% ?

Bye
Thanee


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## Scion (Sep 12, 2004)

Grappling a caster who is prepared for a grapple? -1 round.
Grappling a psion who is prepared for a grapple? -1 round.

Sounds about the same.

If the other caster doesnt want to prepare and suffers for it, fine, they deserve to die.

Much like a fighter type who makes zero preperations for those times when you need a ranged weapon.

Psion is slightly better off (there are still many penalties for the psion), but the differences are pretty low. Unless of course the caster type is not too bright. But then, most classes can be considered underpowered/illequiped when they ignore a problem area.


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## Elder-Basilisk (Sep 12, 2004)

Scion said:
			
		

> Grappling a caster who is prepared for a grapple? -1 round.
> Grappling a psion who is prepared for a grapple? -1 round.




Not so.

Grapple a caster who is prepared for a grapple? -1+ rounds (1+ because said caster cannot take actions after dimension dooring out (the usual escape mechanism) thus precluding the use of a quickened spell that round.

Grapple a psion who is prepared for a grapple? -0 rounds. The psion just manifests brain lock or energy ball as if he weren't grappled with the concentration check. Then he manifests a swift action power and his other half manifests another power through schism (or whatever it's called).



> Sounds about the same.




Not even remotely close. The other caster loses a round of actions. The psion just makes a slightly more difficult concentration check (more difficult than the manifesting defensively check he'd probably make otherwise that is) and doesn't lose any actions.



> If the other caster doesnt want to prepare and suffers for it, fine, they deserve to die.
> 
> Much like a fighter type who makes zero preperations for those times when you need a ranged weapon.




What you're missing is the difference in preparations. The only preparation a psion needs to make is a good concentration score. That lets him act just as effectively as if he were not grappled. The other caster needs to prepare a selection of spells that ends the grapple.



> Psion is slightly better off (there are still many penalties for the psion), but the differences are pretty low. Unless of course the caster type is not too bright. But then, most classes can be considered underpowered/illequiped when they ignore a problem area.




No. The Psion is dramatically better off and there are very few penalties for the psion. Grapple is one of the biggest weaknesses of traditional casters. It is not really a weakness at all for a mid or higher level psion. If he needs to escape the grapple, he can do a psionic dimension door or something similar but in most cases, where the disadvantage is the grappled condition rather than constriction damage, he doesn't need to escape at all.


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## Scion (Sep 13, 2004)

Elder-Basilisk said:
			
		

> Grapple a caster who is prepared for a grapple? -1+ rounds (1+ because said caster cannot take actions after dimension dooring out (the usual escape mechanism) thus precluding the use of a quickened spell that round.
> 
> Grapple a psion who is prepared for a grapple? -0 rounds. The psion just manifests brain lock or energy ball as if he weren't grappled with the concentration check. Then he manifests a swift action power and his other half manifests another power through schism (or whatever it's called).




So the psion has up a bunch of powers and is going to be blasted by his own energy ball? How is this a valid comparison again?

The wizard can have an appropriate rod in hand ahead of time and not worry much about it. Maybe he will have up a contingency that works whenever he is in certain situations, or says a certain word. Perhaps he has an item that will help with this situation (ring of freedom of movement, cape of the mountebak, or any of a hundred others).

Both will be grappled, both will have to make the concentration check. The psion will be able to manifest his powers without having to worry about a somatic component, the wizard should have something preped ahead of time for just this sort of situation.

I really dont see a huge bonus here. One still has to worry but with enough ranks in concentration he'll be able to be almost as effective before. Strangely the wizard is in almost the same boat. Enough ranks in concentration and some minor planning ahead of time.

Easy enough. Once again, it is just like a fighter type who completely ignores a mode of combat.

Anyway, lets look at how grapple works.

1st: Aoo provoked. If this deals any damage at all then the grapple attempt fails. This can be gotten around by spending a feat.

2nd: Melee touch attack. There are many spells and protective items to make this sort of thing more difficult. Fighter types will generally be able to make this pretty easily, but it is still an important step (worried about grapples? be displaced, blinking, blured, mirror imaged, phased, whatever.. have a high touch attack AC through whatever means, generally a good idea for a caster type anyway, these are general defenses to help out their poor hp, so none of this is out of order)

3rd: Hold. Opposed grapple checks as a free action. It is even possible for the caster to win at this (athough highly unlikely). Or with a few spells/items they can be incredibly resistant, or even immune (if you are 2 or more size categories above the grappler then you automatically succeed vs them).

4th: maintain. This requires more grapple checks later on, but initially you have to move into your opponents space. In other words, if the caster is mounted then likely you cannot enter a grapple with them. If they are flying and the grappler is not then it is probably a dm call. If they are some sort of form that the grappler cannot get all the way up against (in the same square) then the grapple fails.

Now, at this point it can still be foiled by a simple ring of freedom of movement or a few other items/spells.

Then, we get down to actually doing the grappling (assuming everything went well for the grappler). This is likely a much slower way to kill the opponent, although it does potentially take one member out of combat (they are still able to do things however, even then). It also takes the grappler out as well.

So, even once all of this has occured, all it does vs the mage is make him unable to use some spells. Say that this particular mage is dumb and has no plan for this sort of thing (as is evident from failing everything above as well and he rolls poorly). Effectively he will take some damage, but the rest of his party gets to do bad things to the grappler, so this means that less spells are used by the wizard potentially, less damage is caused to him overall, and in the end it was actually a worse option than just beating him up with the sword a good portion of the time (not always).

This is why I dont see it as being a very big bonus. It isnt a great strategy most of the time to begin with, there are a dozen easy ways to become resistant/immune (and several more difficult to do the same), and, in the end, all it does is save some of the casters spells so that he can actually do more in later battles that day.

Woo.

So, for a fairly lackluster option, psions are slightly better off because they still have most of their options open even if pinned. Of course there are so many other things that are going on here that most of the time it just isnt a good option to grapple someone to begin with. Also, for those few times when it does happen if the caster does not have a thought in mind then he, again, deserves to die. Just like the fighter type who completely ignores a mode of combat (what do you mean I cant charge the guy 20' up and 200' away? how come he keeps on hitting me every round?).


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## nimisgod (Sep 13, 2004)

> So the psion has up a bunch of powers and is going to be blasted by his own energy ball? How is this a valid comparison again?




Strawman. There are a great number of other powers that a psion can use whilst grappled. A nomad can use dimension swap. Most psions can just mind thrust their opponent, right there. 



> *The psion will be able to manifest his powers without having to worry about a somatic component*, the wizard should have something preped ahead of time for just this sort of situation.




Once again, amount of preparation. The psion doesn't even have to give a rat's ass about being grappled, save for the concentration check and the damage that might be extremely painful. At mid to higher levels, it doesn't even stymie his main ability: the ability to manifest powers. Wizards/Sorcerers in those situations that have the same amount of preparation as a Psion "needs" are little more powerful than commoners.

If somatic components are such a non-issue, then why do you need painful metamagic feats, prestige classes and expensive items (that take up slots) to bypass its negative effects? If they are such a non-issue as you make them to be, then the presence of somatic components shouldn't even be a problem for the arcanist.

But they are. They are a problem in select situations... situations which pop up regularly (IMX). How do you prevent a psion from manifesting powers, short of an anti-magick field or killing/disabling him outright? Silence won't work. Grappling isn't that effective. Hell, do you even know that the guy staring at you is really a psion, since a psion can hide his power's display?

And while the wizard/sorc is preparing for these eventualities by spending gold/feats/levels, the psion can spent his resources wherever he wants... including the ability to further increase the gap between his offensive ability and the arcanists'.


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## Majere (Sep 13, 2004)

Bah you all suck (joke), Ill post a new thread.

If you want to see which is a better artillery piece you have to post characters and crunch numbers. Otherwise we get into circular arguments about focus and feats and builds with 21 levels and floating feats without any of the prerequisits. If you really want to find out how little making a check you probably wont even fail on a 1, or only being able to use one metapsionic feat at a time (Except of course the following feats are already built in: silent,still,eschwwmaterial,heighten) people nee to post actual real builds.

It appears to me that psions do much more damage than ohter casters and would like someone to prove me wrong. 

Oh and metamagic rods should be banned. Quickened timestops were never ment to happen. Its just not even sensible.

Majere


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## Scion (Sep 13, 2004)

nimisgod said:
			
		

> Strawman.




Note, it was the example given by the other guy.



			
				nimisgod said:
			
		

> The psion doesn't even have to give a rat's ass about being grappled, save for the concentration check and the damage that might be extremely painful. At mid to higher levels, it doesn't even stymie his main ability: the ability to manifest powers.




Which is effectively the same for the wizard. The only difference is somatic components, which can be gotten around a number of ways as well.

So, going by the list I gave above, which showed grapple to not be a great option to begin with, the psion has a slight advantage. Woo.

Oh, and about the quickend time stops. Quicken is overpriced to begin with, time stop is almost broken in and of itself 

In a comparison with psion/casters for damage bringing in the rods effectively makes the casters win, pretty much hands down. So leaving them out works well for the discussion so long as they are never used in the game, but they are part of the game.

I dont care if they are brought into the discussion or not for whether or not more damage is done, but they have to be brought up for other points of conversation since they 'are' there


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## Spatula (Sep 13, 2004)

Scion said:
			
		

> Note, it was the example given by the other guy.



EB said the psion can manifest _energy ball_.  He didn't say that the psion would manifest it right on top of himself.  The truth is, a psion with a good Concentration bonus (which is pretty much all of them) is not hindered any way by being grappled, except that he can't move around and is susceptable to sneak attacks.  A grappled kineticist can still toss _energy balls_ all over the battlefield as long as he can make the DC 20 Concentration check.  And since making use of the psionic focus also involves a DC 20 Concentration check, most psions are going to optimize their Concentration.

Other casters have to actually give the matter some thought and make preparations for the possibility that they will be grappled.


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## Scion (Sep 13, 2004)

While it is not mentioned it seems it would be just as easy to cover someones eyes as it would be to cover their mouth (assuming the proper conditions).

Also, energy ball was mentioned as being used and the other option of brain lock implies useing it on the one grappling with you. Along with wanting to get out of the grapple before being killed by it, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

However, it doesnt matter much, psions gain a pretty small bonus really. They dont have to worry as much about avoiding such a situation. Anyone who actually plans for it will not be hindered by it much more, or even at all, than the psion.

Since it is already a marginal choice to begin with in the majority of cases, and it is easy enough to get around/avoid with a variety of spells/powers/item, and with a bit of thought then other caster types wont be hindered by it too greatly it just isnt a huge benefit.

Benefit? yes. Huge benefit? not even close.

of course, all of that I have said from the beginning.


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## nimisgod (Sep 13, 2004)

> Which is effectively the same for the wizard. The only difference is somatic components, which can be gotten around a number of ways as well.




So, the psion;s lack of somatic components is an issue, rather than a non-issue. I mean, why would you want to go around it if it was of so little benefit...


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## Majere (Sep 13, 2004)

*sighs folornly*
I just found the most broken combination in terms of damage/day
Its a completely false comparisson but proves a point about having to put things up against real monsters

Most damage/day: Psion
Energy Current (9pp)
- Damage 9d6
- Duration concentration. (to 1r/l)

Given a 10th level psi wih 128 pps. the is equivalent to:
9d6*10*14= 4410 damage per day
This thrashes the ass off of any sorcerer spell combination.

Broken combination
Energy current (9pps), Solicit psi crystal(5pps+1pp/r)

ITs a bit of a burn, but our psi can on the second round inflict a horrible amount of damage from:
Energy current
A normal power
A scismed power
A quickened power

Thats a hell of a burn out yes, but will kill most things very dead very fast. 
The energy current, Solicit combination works great for massacreing BBEG's.

Majere


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## Psion (Sep 13, 2004)

Majere said:
			
		

> *sighs folornly*
> I just found the most broken combination in terms of damage/day
> Its a completely false comparisson but proves a point about having to put things up against real monsters




Well, as long as you realize that. 

I still wonder if that power is a little on the strong side. It's most comparable to chain lightning, which is one level higher.

Pro (compared to chain lightining)
- Concentration duration
- The usual multi-element thing

Con:
- Close range (Chain lightning is LONG range). You _will_ be a target.
- Fewer secondary targets
- Kineticist specific

Though you can't make a straight up comparison of these points, I am dubious about if it deserves to be a level lower than chain lightning. Still, it wouldn't be a shoo-in power choice for me, and especially, not one I would take a feat to get if the character was not a kineticist.


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## Nail (Sep 13, 2004)

Scion said:
			
		

> Benefit? yes. Huge benefit? not even close.



Again, this will all depend on how nice your DM is to your spell casters.  For many, many monsters, Impr. Grab is an issue to be worried about.  (I'll assume you agree with that.)

If so, then both the psion and the Wiz/Sor have to prepare for it.  Let's see how many resources each has to spend:

Wiz/Sor: must have Dim. Door/teleport ready, hopefully at least twice, just in case.  Only the wizard will have the opportunity to try other _Silenced_ or _Stilled_ options.  Even so, by the 3rd (or 5th???) encounter of the day, the wiz/Sor might be out of luck.

Psion: No advance preparation necessary; can do it as often as required, given pp's available.

Which is better off?  Which *must* spend more time and effort to ward off a situation which may (or may not!) occur?

Now, as for "huge benefit": As long as the Fighter is the only one being grappled in your game, you're safe.  Keep your fingers crossed!  

(Meanwhile: give me yer DMs email....I'd be happy to discuss strategy with him!)


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## Nail (Sep 13, 2004)

*Sorren*I notice one of the other players in the group is playing a Rog/Sor.  I know this is OT, but: how's that working out for him?  A former player had a Rog/Sor, and thought it was....uhmmm....not as exciting as he had hoped!


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## Elder-Basilisk (Sep 13, 2004)

Scion said:
			
		

> So the psion has up a bunch of powers and is going to be blasted by his own energy ball? How is this a valid comparison again?




Well, the psion needn't worry too much about the energy ball if he's got his energy resistance power up. (And most mid-high level psions will usually have it up). However, that wasn't what I meant and everyone else seems to have understood that. Heavy artillery characters do not operate in a vacuum any more than fighters or clerics do--generally, they are a part of a party.

To expand the example and clarify what I meant for you: if the psion is grappled by a monk summoned giant crocodile on the other side of the battle, he can still drop an energy ball on the group of hobgoblins attempting to flank the party, Brain Lock the barbarian, or do anything else he would ordinarily do to defeat his foes despite being grappled.



> The wizard can have an appropriate rod in hand ahead of time and not worry much about it.




May I nominate this for "most ludicrous contention of the thread?" Unless you count the metamagic rod as a club, the wizard can now be grappled without the feat since he is unarmed (the other hand has to be free to cast spells). In general, a wizard with access to a metamagic rod will have one that is more generally useful (like empower) in hand. Even so, metamagic rods only work up to a certain spell level and higher level rods are prohibitively expensive.

And finally, there IS no metamagic rod of still spell in the DMG.



> Maybe he will have up a contingency that works whenever he is in certain situations, or says a certain word. Perhaps he has an item that will help with this situation (ring of freedom of movement, cape of the mountebak, or any of a hundred others).




Contingency is a good option but since wizards are limited to one contingency at a time, there's no guarantee that it will be an anti-grapple contingency. In my experience, a lot of Sor/Wiz characters DO have an anti-grapple contingency but that's a rather significant expended resource and rather cuts against your denigration of grapple as a marginal combat option. It is the single most devastating combat option against traditional spellcasters and those who are successful spend quite a few resources in order to resist it.

As for the other options you mention, only the ring of freedom of movement actually changes the equation of grapple for traditional caster=1+ rounds of non-contribution but grapple for a psion=0 rounds of non-contribution. The cape of the montebank is just dimension door. That's still a round of non-contribution. And, except at the very highest levels, that ring is a rather expensive item.



> Both will be grappled, both will have to make the concentration check. The psion will be able to manifest his powers without having to worry about a somatic component, the wizard should have something preped ahead of time for just this sort of situation.




The wizard (or sorceror) may have something prepped but, in the vast majority of cases, it takes him out of the action for that one round. The psion stays in the action full time even when grappled. When APL+2 and APL +3 encounters often take only 2-3 rounds before being decided one way or the other, that round of inaction will make a very big difference to the outcome of the combat.



> I really dont see a huge bonus here. One still has to worry but with enough ranks in concentration he'll be able to be almost as effective before. Strangely the wizard is in almost the same boat. Enough ranks in concentration and some minor planning ahead of time.




Minor and easy planning, maybe. The resources used by that planning, however, are not minor until high levels.



> Easy enough. Once again, it is just like a fighter type who completely ignores a mode of combat.




Sure. And enabling a fighter type to completely ignore one mode of combat would be a VERY big advantage. I see a lot of archers taking two levels of Order of the Bow Initiate for close combat shot and that doesn't enable archers to ignore melee combat (they're still very vulnerable to trip and sunder manuevers) nearly as well as the lack of somatic and material components enables psions to ignore grapple.



> Anyway, lets look at how grapple works.
> 
> 1st: Aoo provoked. If this deals any damage at all then the grapple attempt fails. This can be gotten around by spending a feat.




It can also be evaded by having a high armor class. Neither psions nor sorcerors nor wizards are known for having a high attack bonus. Or by having DR. Mid-high level barbarians are unlikely to take any damage from a wizard's dagger. Characters in adamantine heavy armor will ignore the dagger more than half the time.



> 2nd: Melee touch attack. There are many spells and protective items to make this sort of thing more difficult. Fighter types will generally be able to make this pretty easily, but it is still an important step (worried about grapples? be displaced, blinking, blured, mirror imaged, phased, whatever.. have a high touch attack AC through whatever means, generally a good idea for a caster type anyway, these are general defenses to help out their poor hp, so none of this is out of order)




An important step to be sure but all of the options you mention (other than blink which I generally consider to make one practically immune to grapples) are equally effective against ordinary attacks and many of them are effective against magical attacks too.



> 3rd: Hold. Opposed grapple checks as a free action. It is even possible for the caster to win at this (athough highly unlikely). Or with a few spells/items they can be incredibly resistant, or even immune (if you are 2 or more size categories above the grappler then you automatically succeed vs them).




Now you're blowing smoke. The ring of free action is already mentioned (though it's worth pointing out that Freedom of Movement is available to psions as a power but not to wizards as a spell). As for the spells/items, the +5 bonus from Enlarge Person is not sufficient to bring a wizard's grapple check up to par, except at the lowest levels. And most wizards don't walk around enlarged anyway--except for grapples, they gain very few advantages from it and feel the disadvantages somewhat more keenly than some other characters. Absent polymorph (with which a caster will generally not assume a form that has a huge grapple advantage (huge size, high strength, etc) unless he is planning on engaging in combat in that form), and various potential countergrapple spells (gaseous form, blink, dimension door, teleport, ghost form, etc--all of which would primarily be useful in this context, only after the grapple has begun), there's not much that will let the wizard evade grapples. And even those don't make the grapple a failure--they simply make it a temporary disadvantage rather than a combat-ender (for the sor/wiz).



> 4th: maintain. This requires more grapple checks later on, but initially you have to move into your opponents space. In other words, if the caster is mounted then likely you cannot enter a grapple with them. If they are flying and the grappler is not then it is probably a dm call. If they are some sort of form that the grappler cannot get all the way up against (in the same square) then the grapple fails.




First things first. That's only for ordinary grapples. Improved grab pulls the victim into the creature's space. And Improved Grab is what characters face at least as often as ordinary grapples.

Second, I've yet to meet a DM who would buy either the "I'm mounted, you can't enter my space" or the "I'm flying, you can't grapple me" argument. I know I certainly wouldn't buy either. The mounted grapple would probably be treated as either pulling the rider off his steed (possilby requiring another check) or grabbing onto the steed and both combatants in the grapple being mounted (similar to Aragorn and Sharku's battle while riding or hanging onto the Worg from in the Two Towers film). The flying grapple would probably be treated either as the grappler grabbing onto the flyer (and possibly being pulled off the ground) or the flyer being pulled to the ground.



> Now, at this point it can still be foiled by a simple ring of freedom of movement or a few other items/spells.




I believe this is the third time you've mentioned that fact. However, there's nothing "simple" about a ring of freedom of movement. For nearly half of the a character's career, that costs more money than the character is likely to have in total. Moreover, not every PC or NPC will have such a ring. They tend to be rare due to their cost.



> Then, we get down to actually doing the grappling (assuming everything went well for the grappler). This is likely a much slower way to kill the opponent,




Absent constrict or rake, that's true. With either of those abilities, it's either just as fast as not being grappled (rake) or even faster (constrict). 



> although it does potentially take one member out of combat (they are still able to do things however, even then). It also takes the grappler out as well.




And taking one enemy out of combat in return for being "out of combat" yourself is very often a good trade. If the enemy outnumbers the PCs, it's nearly always a good trade. If the enemy does not outnumber the PCs, it is still often a good trade as long as it disadvantages the PCs more than it disadvantages said enemy. A shambling mound or assassin vine, for instance, is almost always better off grappling a foe than not doing so. A monk or warrior who is outnumbered may well need to think before grappling the wizard but, absent rogues or given fortification armor, it is usually a good idea.



> So, even once all of this has occured, all it does vs the mage is make him unable to use some spells. Say that this particular mage is dumb and has no plan for this sort of thing (as is evident from failing everything above as well and he rolls poorly).




You seem to have the strange idea that mages always begin combat with all their defenses up (and never get dispelled--one of the first things to happen to any obviously buffed NPC spellcaster in the games I play in and something that isn't uncommon against buffed PC spellcasters either). Since you didn't mention a single sor/wiz defense with a duration higher than 1 min/level (FOM is 10 min/level but isn't on the Sor/Wiz list) and several of them (displacement, blink, etc) are 1 round/level, that's not very realistic. And, considering that the touch attack is the only situation where a wizard is likely to foil the grapple, the fact that only a fully prepared wizard with min/level spells is going to foil that does not justify calling the wizard dumb. For a wizard, preparation consists of a way to get out _after_ being grappled (thus forfeiting one round) not a way to avoid being grappled in the first place.



> Effectively he will take some damage, but the rest of his party gets to do bad things to the grappler, so this means that less spells are used by the wizard potentially, less damage is caused to him overall, and in the end it was actually a worse option than just beating him up with the sword a good portion of the time (not always).
> 
> This is why I dont see it as being a very big bonus. It isnt a great strategy most of the time to begin with, there are a dozen easy ways to become resistant/immune (and several more difficult to do the same), and, in the end, all it does is save some of the casters spells so that he can actually do more in later battles that day.
> 
> Woo.




Three things. 

First, you are obviously only looking at this from a PC's perspective. If you look at it from an NPC's perspective, it looks very different. Against a group of NPCs, it is very often the first thought of PCs to grapple the spellcasters and thus take them out of the fight.  The NPC gets to inflict harm on the party for two rounds rather than being grappled while flatfooted and never being able to do anything is a HUGE difference that merits more than a "woo." (And, even if, at low levels, the NPC only makes half the concentration checks, that's still much better). 

Second, you're falling prey to the tendency to exaggerate. There are _not_ a dozen ways to be immune to grapples. You mention three:
Ring of Freedom of Movement
Being two sizes bigger than the foe (practical only through polymorph/metamorph and shapechange).
Contingent forms of the above

To this, I added a few more:
Blink
Gaseous Form
Ghost Form
Improved Blink

However, that's still only six ways, only a few of which are actually practical when non-contingent (freedom of movement, Improved Blink, Shapechange, and Ghost Form).

Third, the party does not always get to do "bad things" to the grappler. Against a party with a lot of archers or spellcasters, it's actually safer to be in a grapple (where there's a 50% chance that any non Improved Precise ranged attack will hit your victim and a 100% chance that any area effect attack will damage your victim too). A lot of foes will only have a dex bonus of one or two so grappling doesn't really make them significantly more vulnerable to the fighter types. Really, the only character who can _really_ do bad things to a grappling foe is a rogue--and even then, only if the foe is vulnerable to sneak attacks. Often a grappling foe is at a disadvantage vis a vis the other members of the party but not always.



> So, for a fairly lackluster option, psions are slightly better off because they still have most of their options open even if pinned. Of course there are so many other things that are going on here that most of the time it just isnt a good option to grapple someone to begin with. Also, for those few times when it does happen if the caster does not have a thought in mind then he, again, deserves to die. Just like the fighter type who completely ignores a mode of combat (what do you mean I cant charge the guy 20' up and 200' away? how come he keeps on hitting me every round?).




Grapple is a much more effective option than you give it credit for being. I suspect you haven't had much experience with either improved grab monsters or grappling focussed PCs.


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## Scion (Sep 13, 2004)

Nail said:
			
		

> Again, this will all depend on how nice your DM is to your spell casters.  For many, many monsters, Impr. Grab is an issue to be worried about.  (I'll assume you agree with that.)




As I went through above, the grapple rules are fairly unimpressive. Also, many creatures will be doing 'less' damage to a grappled foe than otherwise (only one weapon may be used, so if the creature has both a claw and bite attack it must choose which one it will use). If it likes to do other things while grappling (like defend itself) then it gets a -20 to all of its grapple checks.

Improved grab is nice, but most of the time monsters with Trip are much more worriesome! 

Some creatures are designed with grappling in mind and those can be pretty dangerous. However, mainly only for one on one battles (which a ring of free action makes the wearer simply immune to).



			
				Nail said:
			
		

> If so, then both the psion and the Wiz/Sor have to prepare for it. Let's see how many resources each has to spend:
> 
> Wiz/Sor: must have Dim. Door/teleport ready, hopefully at least twice, just in case. Only the wizard will have the opportunity to try other Silenced or Stilled options. Even so, by the 3rd (or 5th???) encounter of the day, the wiz/Sor might be out of luck.
> 
> Psion: No advance preparation necessary; can do it as often as required, given pp's available.




Of course, we know that the wizard has to think about it slightly more, that was said from the beginning.

But then, there are quite a few various items which will help render immune/resistant, and those items are good to have even when ignoring the existance of grappling.

The psion might or might not have a power available which will help, the sorc is a bit stuck of course, but then I believe several people in this thread and others have said that the sorc is a bit under the curve in a few areas anyway.

Psion slighter better off? sure. Much better off? nah. It isnt an incredible combat tactic to begin with the majority of the time and with a little planning it can be gotten around completely.

Sure, by the 5th battle of the day (or even the third really) the wizard is probably out of options for it. Of course, if hitting 3+ different combats with grapplers is commonplace then they had better start thinking about it!


So apparently we have a mage who is in his base form, has no defensive items which are useable, the opponent has at least one feat/special ability to negate the aoo, the mage fails at a couple different grapple checks, has no allies, and has spent no thought on the matter then he is in a worse position than a psion who is in the same boat. All right.

I am still failing to see the awe inspiring power boost that this entails. Seems incredibly slight actually. Sortof like the difference between someone with a bow that shoots 100' vs the guy who has a bow that shoots 110'. Sure, the guy with the second bow can shoot farther whenever the need is there, but most of the time the need simply isnt there.


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## Nail (Sep 13, 2004)

Elder-Basilisk said:
			
		

> Grapple is a much more effective option than you give it credit for being. I suspect you haven't had much experience with either improved grab monsters or grappling focussed PCs.



It's an extremely effective tactic....even against the all-powerful fighter!

In one of our recent games (where I DM) a wyvern attacked the party.  He won init, and attacked the first guy in the marching order: the Fighter.  The wyvern hit, Improved Grappled, and took the fighter down.  The cleric ran up...and next round, the wyvern took a -20 on the grapple, then did a full attack on the cleric.  Ouch!  Two rounds later, the wyvern fled (those nasty archers!), leaving the poor fighter behind...who, by this time, had managed to break the grapple and free himself.

The point is: grapple is one of those "great equalizers" in the game.  In my example above, the fighter went from "I do the most damage per round!" to "I'm useless until I escape this grapple!".

The psion, OTOH, could have continued to contribute during the combat.....in fact, he might of been able to simply kill the silly wyvern.

OT: Boy, does that fighter PC hate grapples.  It happens almost every game.  (7th level PCs)


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## Nail (Sep 13, 2004)

Scion said:
			
		

> As I went through above, the grapple rules are fairly unimpressive.



How many times has a monster tried to grapple a PC in your game?



			
				scion said:
			
		

> Also, many creatures will be doing 'less' damage to a grappled foe than otherwise...



 Irrelevant.  Grappling is not _primarily_ for causing damage.  It's for making someone completely useless for some portion of combat.  That is a big deal!



			
				scion said:
			
		

> .....However, mainly only for one on one battles (which a ring of free action makes the wearer simply immune to).



<Reaganism>There you go again!</Reaganism>

A ring of Free Action costs 40,000 gp.

A 10th level PC has a total wealth of 49,000gp.  Only at 15th level + does that cost become "simple".



			
				Scion said:
			
		

> Of course, we know that the wizard has to think about it slightly more, ....



...and there's that word "slightly" again........



			
				scion said:
			
		

> Psion slighter better off? sure. Much better off? nah. <Grappling> isnt an incredible combat tactic to begin with the majority of the time and with a little planning it can be gotten around completely.



Planning is the point.

Sor/wiz: must spend resources to plan.

Psion: doesn't have to

Advantage: Psion

That's really all there is too it.


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## Elder-Basilisk (Sep 13, 2004)

Scion said:
			
		

> While it is not mentioned it seems it would be just as easy to cover someones eyes as it would be to cover their mouth (assuming the proper conditions).




Of course, it doesn't matter much if the psion has manifested Synthsete and can see through his ears just as well as he can see through his eyes.



			
				Scion (in another post) said:
			
		

> So apparently we have a mage who is in his base form, has no defensive items which are useable,




Well, considering that polymorph is 1 min/level now, you should write:
"a mage who is not expecting immediate combat and has neither the skin of the Proteus nor a ring of free action." Of course, that would sound much less convincing.



> the opponent has at least one feat/special ability to negate the aoo,




Or takes thought to draw the AoO early through movement, has a high enough AC to evade the wizard's dagger or staff (not too hard really), or simply has multiple attacks and the ability to make a full attack.

It's also relevant vs. a variety of common spells like Evard's Black Tentacles, Bigby's Grasping Hand, Bigby's Crushing Hand, etc. Against sorcerors or wizards, those spells often end encounters.



> the mage fails at a couple different grapple checks,




Only one grapple check. And that's pretty much a given unless the wizard has already polymorphed into an annis hag or something similar--in which case, he is still likely to lose (base grapple +14) to a slightly buffed grappler on the other side (7th level enlarged monk with an 18 strength (probably through gauntlets of ogre power) and Improved Grapple +18). (I say slightly buffed because a multiclassed grappler would be better as would said monk if he were also bull's strengthed, a half-orc, blessed, prayered, using Suregrip (T&B), or had weapon focus: grapple).



> has no allies,




Again, the only relevant ally here is a melee rogue. Archers are no help, spellcasters are less of a help than they would be otherwise, and warrior types are only slightly more helpful than they would be otherwise. And even then, the melee rogue is only relevant if the target is vulnerable to crits.



> and has spent no thought on the matter then he is in a worse position than a psion who is in the same boat. All right.




Even if he has spent significant thought and resources on the matter, he's still in a worse position than the psion in that situation.



> I am still failing to see the awe inspiring power boost that this entails.




Awe-inspiring, maybe not. But if you don't think it's a significant advantage, you're not paying attention.



> Seems incredibly slight actually. Sortof like the difference between someone with a bow that shoots 100' vs the guy who has a bow that shoots 110'. Sure, the guy with the second bow can shoot farther whenever the need is there, but most of the time the need simply isnt there.




Now we have a second contestant in the most ludicrous comparison contest. The ability to manifest powers mostly unhindered in a grapple is FAR more significant than being able to shoot an extra 10 feet. It's something that is likely to come up in 10-20% of combats for a PC (making it more comparable to a fighter who doesn't carry a ranged weapon at all than a fighter who has a 100' range bow rather than 110') and is likely to come up in 30% of combats for a spellcasting NPC--going up to 50% of combats if a PC starts using Evard's Black Tentacles and 90% of combats once PCs hit 13th level and start using Grasping Hand. Of course, that will depend upon the party makeup but it's something that regularly devastates unprepared NPC spellcasters.


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## Elder-Basilisk (Sep 13, 2004)

This is my experience as well. It's why I am of the opinion that Close Quarters Fighting is a mandatory feat for nearly every fighter type. If you don't have a method for dealing with being grappled, you're going to find yourself sucking your thumb in combat on a regular basis--unless you're a psion, in which case, you just have to make a concentration check and you're good to go.



			
				Nail said:
			
		

> It's an extremely effective tactic....even against the all-powerful fighter!
> 
> In one of our recent games (where I DM) a wyvern attacked the party.  He won init, and attacked the first guy in the marching order: the Fighter.  The wyvern hit, Improved Grappled, and took the fighter down.  The cleric ran up...and next round, the wyvern took a -20 on the grapple, then did a full attack on the cleric.  Ouch!  Two rounds later, the wyvern fled (those nasty archers!), leaving the poor fighter behind...who, by this time, had managed to break the grapple and free himself.
> 
> ...


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## Thanee (Sep 13, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> I still wonder if that power is a little on the strong side. It's most comparable to chain lightning, which is one level higher.




I think it compares well to Ball Lightning (from Magic of Faerûn) in the first incarnation. They nerfed it in Savage Species to 1d6 per 2 levels and now again in the Player's Guide to Faerûn to some rather weird version. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Scion (Sep 14, 2004)

Nail said:
			
		

> It's an extremely effective tactic....even against the all-powerful fighter!
> 
> In one of our recent games (where I DM) a wyvern attacked the party.  He won init, and attacked the first guy in the marching order: the Fighter.  The wyvern hit, Improved Grappled, and took the fighter down.  The cleric ran up...and next round, the wyvern took a -20 on the grapple, then did a full attack on the cleric.  Ouch!  Two rounds later, the wyvern fled (those nasty archers!), leaving the poor fighter behind...who, by this time, had managed to break the grapple and free himself.




So lets see. Fighter level 6 (as the wyvern is level 6 this doesnt seem incredibly unlikely).

Wyvern initiative +1, chance of beating the whole party? very slim.
Wyvern attack +7, chance to hit party tank? probably around 50/50.
Wyvern opposed grapple check +15, probably less than 65% chance of succeeding.
Now the whole party gets to go. Wyvern AC 17 while grappling. Flanking is incredibly easy to do, no threatened squares from the wyvern. Likely to lose a good chunk of his hp this round (fighter does whatever it is he wants to do while grappling, trying to escape or do some other combat manuevers, if he tries to pin the beast then he has a chance to do so, holding it immoble for one round).
Wyvern takes -20 to grapple check (one limb busy) to full attack the cleric. Now fighter is virtually gaurenteed to be able to pin the beast, rest of party slaughters it.

Sounds like the fighter, even though he wasnt as effective as he might have been, still won the day. It was actually a 'good thing' in some ways that he was grappled, as he was able to deny the creature attacks, pull its ac down for the rest of the party, and if it had bothered to attack him then cut its offensive power to nil.

So even this fighter, who was weak (assumed str 14), ill equiped (used no equipment during the grapple), and had no relevant feats (none were used at all), still was able to make a valueable contribution to the fight while in the grips of being grappled. All of that was even after the incredibly unlikely setup.


This example shows perfectly just how weak grappling tends to be.

I have seen it used in several games, most of the time the monster actually gets 'easier' to fight once it is busy grappling.


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## Scion (Sep 14, 2004)

As for the spells and items that help, I do not wish to go through the incredibly long list of things that would make the caster resistant/immune, I think everyone here has access to the SRD and can do so for themselves.

However, a few easy ones would be Alter self (10 minute duration, all around good buff spell), ring of blinking, cloak of displacement, hat of disguise/disguise self, mirrior image, blur.. bah, the list goes on and on and on and on.

If it is such a huge problem (which, given the rules for grappling, it typically isnt) then anyone vulnerable will take a simple precaution or two.

Hence why it is a pretty minor bonus.


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## Elder-Basilisk (Sep 14, 2004)

Scion said:
			
		

> As for the spells and items that help, I do not wish to go through the incredibly long list of things that would make the caster resistant/immune, I think everyone here has access to the SRD and can do so for themselves.




Some of us already have and the list isn't nearly as long as you seem to think it is.



> However, a few easy ones would be Alter self (10 minute duration, all around good buff spell), ring of blinking, cloak of displacement, hat of disguise/disguise self, mirrior image, blur.. bah, the list goes on and on and on and on.




Considering that half of these don't actually help much with grappling, you should be a little less condescending and a lot less confident in this:

Alter Self: Doesn't change stats, can't change type. Since there are no large humanoids in the core rules, it can't make a caster significantly better at grappling. Since natural armor doesn't apply to the touch attack, it doesn't help in that part either. I suppose it helps a little bit against improved grab creatures who have to hit the wizard's normal AC to start a grapple. Still, it's not very good anti-grapple material.

Hat of Disguise/Disguise Self: Doesn't help at all. The most it can do is deter attacks by making a character look like someone who is not a good target for grappling. However, since there are so many things that would break the illusion (illusionary armor doesn't make a sound and doesn't impede movement, etc), and the hat of disguise has a very low DC (11 as a magic item duplicating a 1st level spell) it's not even really good at that.

Other items that you mention only help against some grapples (Mirror Image for instance does nothing against Evard's Black Tentacles), are not generally useful for sor/wiz characters (while a favorite of rogues, a ring of blinking is not really well regarded by sor/wiz characters who can cast blink themself but usually elect not to since the 20% miss chance really hurts characters with limited offensive resources), or are generally weak items for characters not on the front line (the cloak of displacement is allright for a front-line fighter but is a bit of a waste on a wizard who benefits more from +5 to saves (cloak of resistance) than from a 20% miss chance).

The real list is something more like:
Polymorph
Skin of the Proteus (broken anyway and prohibitively expensive till level 16 or so)
Ring of Free Movement (prohibitively expensive until level 15 or so)
Ring of Blinking (expensive and not much more effective than dimension door and has serious drawbacks for a spellcaster)
Cape of the Montebank
Ring of Spell Storing (with Freedom of Movement, Divine Power, Divine Favor, or Righteous Might)
Freedom of Movement
Blink
Improved Blink (Complete Divine)
Dimension Door
Teleport
Greater Teleport
Ghostform (T&B)
Gaseous Form
Ectoplasmic form
Fire Shield (arguably--most DMs I know would apply the damage for grappling even though the spell doesn't explicitly do so)
Shapechange
Ring of Protection (a little)
Belt of Giant Strength (somewhat)
Iron Body (somewhat)
Grease
True Strike (quickened and eschewed, assuming your DM applies attack bonusses to grapple checks)
Tenser's Transformation
Enlarge Person
Righteous Might
Shield of Faith
Divine Favor
Divine Power
Wish

Most of these, however, are not practical when you're a sor/wiz or when you are being grappled yourself or don't help a lot/enough. That's why the discussion thus far has focussed on Rings of Free Action, contingent spells, Ghost Form, and Dimension Door: because those are the best and most practical ways to deal with grapple. Shapechange would help a lot too but it's 9th level and is generally obvious when it's active and once it's active, most enemies won't try and grapple you.



> If it is such a huge problem (which, given the rules for grappling, it typically isnt) then anyone vulnerable will take a simple precaution or two.




Curious--most people find the 3.5 grapple rules to be quite intuitive that's probably why Nail and I see extensive use of them.

More to the point, "a simple precaution or two" does not come close to equalling the psion's ability to manifest while in a grapple. (At best, they make it slightly less likely that the caster will be grappled and most are simply side-effects of ordinary defensive activities--which the psion can be relied upon to duplicate because he has an equal interest in not being beaten to a pulp). Only the serious precautions available only at high levels like rings of free action and contingent ghostform equal the psion's ability to manifest unhindered by grapples. That's why it's a significant advantage.


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## Scion (Sep 14, 2004)

Elder-Basilisk said:
			
		

> Some of us already have and the list isn't nearly as long as you seem to think it is.




Sure it is, take a look  I named a few that are right off of the top.



			
				Elder-Basilisk said:
			
		

> Considering that half of these don't actually help much with grappling, you should be a little less condescending and a lot less confident in this:




Please read my posts more carefully before dismissing it. Having a 50% miss chance makes one more resistant to grappling. Hence, all of those are helpful for avoiding being grappled and, paraphrased from what I said earlier, prevention is even better than doing it well.



			
				Elder-Basilisk said:
			
		

> Alter Self:




It is possible to have a large humanoid in the game. Not being included in the core rules is an unfortunate oversight just like no winged humanoids.

Still, getting some natural attacks and a higher ac definately help, especially with the improved grab comments earlier. It is also of an almost decent duration.



			
				Elder-Basilisk said:
			
		

> Hat of Disguise/Disguise Self:




If they think you will be a tough grappler and there are other better targets then you have just saved yourself from being grappled.

Sure, it can be seen through with strong enough magic, but so what? If they are useing time to see through it then that helps out the party, if they are magical enough to always have something like that running then there are still other things to be done and the caster can get other items which are better options (the hat was mentioned because it is so incredibly cheap, available very early on when the caster is most vulnerable).



			
				Elder-Basilisk said:
			
		

> More to the point, "a simple precaution or two" does not come close to equalling the psion's ability to manifest while in a grapple.




Grappling is generally an inferior combat option.

Being slightly better at doing your thing when someone else is doing something that is making themselves worse is not exactly a huge benefit.

Yes, slightly. This is because there are many ways to become resistant, many ways to become immune, and several ways to simply be able to ignore the problem.

Sorcs are in the worst boat, wizards are next, and then psions are on top. Big deal. Better in a pretty marginal case. Woo.

Still, has little to nothing to do with the topic.


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## Elder-Basilisk (Sep 14, 2004)

Scion said:
			
		

> So lets see. Fighter level 6 (as the wyvern is level 6 this doesnt seem incredibly unlikely).




At that point, however, the wyvern is expected to be torn up without seriously damaging the party (20% resources). Therefore the assumption that he's supposed to prevent a serious threat to the whole party (when grappling or otherwise) is inaccurate and the comparison point has to be what he accomplishes before losing.



> Wyvern initiative +1, chance of beating the whole party? very slim.




Not that it's particularly relevant. They can all hide under trees and rocks if they want but it only needs to beat one party member to have a chance of grappling him.



> Wyvern attack +7, chance to hit party tank? probably around 50/50.




It's probably diving and attacking from higher ground (the air one square above the victim). My SRD also lists the wyvern's attack at +10. (+13 with bonusses) That would give it a better chance--probably more like 65-70% against a two handed weapon fighter; noticably less against a sword and board fighter. Not too impressive but it's a CR 6 creature; it's supposed to get slaughtered.



> Wyvern opposed grapple check +15, probably less than 65% chance of succeeding.




Actually, it's about 74% assuming the fighter has a 16 strength and is medium--both reasonable assumptions.



> Now the whole party gets to go. Wyvern AC 17 while grappling. Flanking is incredibly easy to do, no threatened squares from the wyvern.




The wyvern's 10' face makes this noticably harder--especially since the party probably doesn't begin next to the fighter. Odds are good that at least half of them have to choose between flanking and attacking. (Of course, the rogue doesn't need to flank since the wyvern is grappled).



> Likely to lose a good chunk of his hp this round (fighter does whatever it is he wants to do while grappling, trying to escape or do some other combat manuevers, if he tries to pin the beast then he has a chance to do so, holding it immoble for one round).




I don't know about this. In the standard 4 person party, the wizard will probably toss a magic missile (avg dmg--10.5), the cleric closes and attacks (standard atk bonus with 14 str, weapon focus and a masterwork weapon: +8 for 1d8+2 dmg--avg dmg 3.9), and the rogue attacks (16 dex, weapon finesse, masterwork rapier +8 for 1d6+1 +3d6 SA--avg dmg: 9). That's a decent chunk of hit points (total avg 23.4)  but then again, it's still less than the wyvern would have taken had the fighter had his shot (atk +11/+6 for 2d6+7 with a +1 greatsword--avg 14.7 dmg w/out power attack). Even though the rogue's average damage goes up by around six points (assuming he can only sneak attack because of the grapple) and the cleric's average damage goes up by about a quarter of a point, the wyvern is still taking less damage than it would otherwise.

The fighter stands about a 26% chance of either escaping or pinning the wyvern (and since pinning is no more difficult than winning any other grapple check and a character who pins his foe can leave the grapple as a free action, there's no reason not to go for the pin).



> Wyvern takes -20 to grapple check (one limb busy) to full attack the cleric. Now fighter is virtually gaurenteed to be able to pin the beast, rest of party slaughters it.




Assuming your DM allows that particular bit of rules-twisting. I wouldn't. A creature that takes the -20 to grapple is not considered grappled and therefore can't be pinned. (Only foes who are in a grapple can be pinned).



> Sounds like the fighter, even though he wasnt as effective as he might have been, still won the day. It was actually a 'good thing' in some ways that he was grappled, as he was able to deny the creature attacks, pull its ac down for the rest of the party, and if it had bothered to attack him then cut its offensive power to nil.




Of course the rest of the party is safer once the wyvern is grappling the fighter. The fighter isn't though. And, once the wyvern takes the -20 to the grapple check, the rest of the party is actually worse off since the wyvern is not really hindered but the fighter won't be contributing to the fight until the round after he breaks out of the grapple.



> So even this fighter, who was weak (assumed str 14), ill equiped (used no equipment during the grapple), and had no relevant feats (none were used at all), still was able to make a valueable contribution to the fight while in the grips of being grappled. All of that was even after the incredibly unlikely setup.




Note that your typical 6th level fighter only has one or two pieces of equipment that could possibly be of use in a grapple. Gauntlets of Ogre power and masterwork armor spikes are about it. If the fighter full attacked with his armor spikes the round he was grappled, he'd contribute about 3.9 points of damage--5.6 points of damage with the gauntlets.



> This example shows perfectly just how weak grappling tends to be.




No. Actually, it shows that it is only a marginal advantage for a single creature to grab the most protected character and best grappler in a group. Had the wyvern grabbed the rogue (and followed up with a sting as it can once it starts a grapple), the equation would have looked very different. Had another wyvern engaged the rogue or the wizard at the same time, grappling would be demonstratably devastating. (Without the rogue's sneak attack or the magic missile, the wyvern cut the amount of damage it takes per round in half, negated archery (including ranged touch attacks like ray of enfeeblement or scorching ray) and area effects like glitterdust.

This is grappling at its weakest, not at its strongest.



> I have seen it used in several games, most of the time the monster actually gets 'easier' to fight once it is busy grappling.




Only for the people outside the grapple, only if it doesn't have constrict, and only if it is the only monster in the fight. Change any of those equations and grappling becomes A LOT more deadly.


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## Elder-Basilisk (Sep 14, 2004)

Scion said:
			
		

> Please read my posts more carefully before dismissing it. Having a 50% miss chance makes one more resistant to grappling. Hence, all of those are helpful for avoiding being grappled and, paraphrased from what I said earlier, prevention is even better than doing it well.




Sure. I only said that about _half_ of the options you listed didn't help. Stuff like displacement does help although the duration is low enough that it will very rarely be cast before combat begins.



> It is possible to have a large humanoid in the game. Not being included in the core rules is an unfortunate oversight just like no winged humanoids.




Actually, I think it's intentional. Everything that would otherwise be a large humanoid is a giant. Things that would otherwise be winged humanoids (like avariel) are monstrous humanoids. That's what those categories are for.



> Still, getting some natural attacks and a higher ac definately help, especially with the improved grab comments earlier. It is also of an almost decent duration.




They help with improved grab creatures. Natural attacks aren't really very helpful to a wizard. Even if he were allowed to use all of his natural attacks inside the grapple (which he's not), a 14 strength (unusually high) wizard 6 would still only do an average of 3 points of damage to the wyvern in the previous example. The natural armor helps a little bit. The natural weapons don't.



> If they think you will be a tough grappler and there are other better targets then you have just saved yourself from being grappled.




But that really only works until your first initiative. As soon as you cast a glitterdust, scorching ray, or fireball, the gig is up and they know you're some kind of arcane caster.



> Sure, it can be seen through with strong enough magic, but so what? If they are useing time to see through it then that helps out the party, if they are magical enough to always have something like that running then there are still other things to be done and the caster can get other items which are better options (the hat was mentioned because it is so incredibly cheap, available very early on when the caster is most vulnerable).




My point was that they can be seen through rather easily without magic. The sequence goes like this. Mr Hat of Disguise walks into the dungeon appearing to wear fullplate. The orc makes a spot check and sees that Mr. Hat of disguise is moving at 30 instead of 20. He makes a will save. (At DC 11, his odds are pretty good even as a MM orc). He also makes a listen check and hears that Mr. Hat of Disguise's fullplate isn't making any noise. He makes another will save. The orc's commander throws a javalin at Mr. Hat of Disguise. It seems to go right through the plume on his helmet as if it weren't there or goes right through the fullplate and slices into unprotected flesh without the tearing sound you would expect from metal striking metal. The orc makes another will save. All a character needs to do to see through the most effective disguises is to have a pair of eyes, a pair of ears, and minimal expererience with weapons and armor (proficiency certainly qualifies). A more subtle disguise (appearing to be wearing leather armor and a black cloak with a rapier at his hip for instance) will be harder to see through (since leather armor doesn't normally hinder speed or make noise and mage armor provides similar protection) but won't deter grapples nearly as effectively--rogues are nearly as good as wizards when selecting grapple targets.



> Grappling is generally an inferior combat option.




Only if you do it poorly and in the wrong situations. Then again, fireballs, scorching rays, magic missiles, and charges are inferior combat options if you do them at the wrong place or time.



> Being slightly better at doing your thing when someone else is doing something that is making themselves worse is not exactly a huge benefit.




But that's not what happens with smart grapplers.



> Sorcs are in the worst boat, wizards are next, and then psions are on top. Big deal. Better in a pretty marginal case. Woo.
> 
> Still, has little to nothing to do with the topic.




Well, we've established that psions have nearly the staying power of sorcerors, the flexibility and feats of wizards, and can blast out their damage over a shorter time frame than either class if they go balls to the wall and put everything on the line. They're less vulnerable to grapple--probably the most glaring weakness of sorcerors and wizards--than any other class except the druid and fighters and monks designed with grappling in mind.

I don't think there's really much room to question the conclusion of the topic: psions are simply better blasters than sorcerors or wizards. The only areas in which they fall behind wizards are party buffing and battlefield control spells.


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## Scion (Sep 14, 2004)

Elder-Basilisk said:
			
		

> This is grappling at its weakest, not at its strongest.




Prove it. Effectively if the creature has the right special ability, and takes the penalty (which makes it lose an attack) then even the party mage could easily escape from this guys grapple.

That wyvern may grapple any particular character, but that limits the wyverns ability while only possibly slowing down one character (the first round).

I would be much more worried about its poison personally.

If the wyvern wants to actually damage they guy in his grapple he lowers his effectiveness to almost nil. If he lowers his grapple check by 20 in order to be able to do other things (still missing one attack because of this) then the guy in the grapple gets out pretty easily.

This guy seems pretty typical for most grapplers though, not incredibly great.

Grapplers would have to be way better than this guy to actually be useful for it.


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## Elder-Basilisk (Sep 14, 2004)

I already did. The wyvern reduces the amount of damage he takes per round by a small margin (more if the party spreads out and can't immediately close into melee range) without (in the example) reducing his damage output very significantly. In the first turn, he increases the amount of damage he does because he gets to make a free stinger attack when he succeeds on the grapple and, otherwise, he would have been limited to a single talon attack during his dive.

If, in the second turn (when he full attacks taking the -20 to grapple), he still reduces the amount of damage he takes because the fighter needs to spend an action excaping from the grapple rather than attacking and may increase his damage (by making a full attack leading with the stinger and wing buffets and then following up with the claw, improved grab, and free stinger attack for successfully grappling a foe). Doubling up on the stinger attack is a bit cheesy and I'm not sure I'd do it as a DM but even if he doesn't, the wyvern has two foes grappled at the end of its initiative (the fighter and the foe he clawed the second round). The fighter probably escapes on his initiative but doesn't get a full attack.

If he does the same thing in the third turn, the wyvern will be able to keep two foes from damaging him (since they have to spend their actions escaping the grapple rather than attacking) each round. (Each round one escapes and is then regrappled before his normal initiative). That will enable him to survive for 3-5 rounds instead of 2-3 rounds. Since he's poisoning at least one person every round (maybe more depending upon how much one is willing to cheese the improved grab special description for the wyvern), that's quite significant.

However, this is still an example of a poor situation for grapple not because the wyvern is just OK at grappling but rather because it is a single foe against an entire party. Grappling works best when it can either take everyone out or when it can shift the balance of actions towards the grappler's side. If there were two wyverns, they would be able to grapple the entire party in this manner. Without the rogue dealing damage in turn 2 and without anyone dealing damage from outside the grapple in turn 3+, the wyverns would be reduced to taking maybe 5 points of damage per round if its foes gave up on escaping and just attacked from inside the grapple. At that rate, they could easily kill the party. The party would just have to hope that their claw attack would miss sooner or later (or they would fail the grapple check) and the fighter or the rogue would manage a full attack or two.

For cases that demonstrate the strength of grappling, you want:
A dragon with the snatch feat
A remorhaz with its swallow whole ability
An annis hag facing summoned monsters (take the AoO as the creature closes, deal damage and improved grab, then on the annis' turn, use her special rake rules to make two claw attacks and rend the creature--with the net effect that the creatures die without ever getting to attack).
A crit-immune creature with constrict (like a shambling mound, tendriculos, or huge animated rug)
A party of PCs against a single sorceror, wizard, or cleric--once grappled, either by a PC, Evard's Black Tentacles, a summoned monster, or Bigby's Grasping Hand, unless that caster has a dimension door, etc available, the fight is over.
A party of PCs against a single tough monster with minions--one PC can grapple the tough monster and keep it occupied while the rest of the PCs dispatch the minions.
A large group of NPCs and/or monsters (with improved grab) against PCs. If a majority of the PCs are grappled, their effectiveness will go downhill really quickly. A pride of dire lions will ruin a lot of PCs' days. 



			
				Scion said:
			
		

> Prove it. Effectively if the creature has the right special ability, and takes the penalty (which makes it lose an attack) then even the party mage could easily escape from this guys grapple.
> 
> That wyvern may grapple any particular character, but that limits the wyverns ability while only possibly slowing down one character (the first round).
> 
> ...


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## Nail (Sep 14, 2004)

Elder-Basilisk said:
			
		

> ...In the first turn, he increases the amount of damage he does because he gets to make a free stinger attack when he succeeds on the grapple and, otherwise, he would have been limited to a single talon attack during his dive.



As it turned out, the Fighter made his Fort save vs. the stinger poison.  Lucky him!



			
				Elder-Basilisk said:
			
		

> ...<the wyvern> still reduces the amount of damage he takes because the fighter needs to spend an action excaping from the grapple rather than attacking...



Absolutely right.

That's the _entire point_ of this tangent!

The number and type of actions each side can take are what determine victory or defeat.  Taking actions away from an enemy - when they must _respond_ to you and play defence - is how you win a combat.  Plain and simple.

Psions, in this regard, have the upper hand. Psions can _continue to act aggressively_ when other spell casting classes would have to be on the defensive.  In grapples, wizards are toast, sorcerers are completely screwed, and even clerics are at the wrong end of things.   Psions.....psions can do as they please.

Prove this is not the case.  Prove that psions are limited to the same, extremely restricted list of defensive choices as wizards or sorcerers are. 

Anything else is just blowing smoke.


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## Droid101 (Sep 14, 2004)

The debate is over, I finally found the piece of evidence that has sorcerers and wizards as the shoe-in of being overpowered, as compared to the psion.

Three words:

Coun-ter-spelling.


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## Nail (Sep 14, 2004)

An' Psions *can be* counterspelled?  I don't think so.....Psions are immune to counterspelling, no?

BTW: After re-reading, my last post seems to have ended on an overly harsh note.  Lemme try again.

I think the evidence supports the assertion that Psions are better "heavy artillery" than Sor/Wiz.  

A small peice of that evidence is that psions can keep blasting away while grappled....Sor/Wiz can't.  Grappling doesn't come up _all_ the time, or, perhaps, not at all in your game.   Hey, that's great.  But grappling (RAW) is significant enough that magic users should be concerned "in the average game".  In such a game, psions come out on top during a grapple (pun intended).

But: I've got at least one player that loves psions.  I don't allow them in my game.  Maybe I should.  Maybe you could convince me that psions are not over-powered!  That'd be fine, FWIW.


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## Scion (Sep 14, 2004)

Elder-Basilisk said:
			
		

> I already did.




The wyvern is weak at grappling, so use a stronger grappler and see how it fairs.



			
				Elder-Basilisk said:
			
		

> The wyvern reduces the amount of damage he takes per round by a small margin (more if the party spreads out and can't immediately close into melee range) without (in the example) reducing his damage output very significantly. In the first turn, he increases the amount of damage he does because he gets to make a free stinger attack when he succeeds on the grapple and, otherwise, he would have been limited to a single talon attack during his dive.




The wyvern moves up, makes an attack (which might miss), initiates a grapple (which might be lost), it stings (this is only a single sting, there is no double sting going on), has to move into the targets square (drawing aoo's from movement. no, it is not a 5' step), then he is done for his turn. (this is all assuming that when it says 'talons' that you only have to hit with a single one, but since it is plural then one should assume that both have to hit, much like rake)

Now it is everyone elses turn. The wyvern does not threaten any squares around himself, has no dex bonus to ac, and basically just made himself a big target for whoever wants to do anything.

The party gets to move around however they like into flanking positions, get whatever attacks they want, possibly have full round attacks, cast whatever spells they like without fear of aoo's, etc. The fighter himself has a few options, he can try to break free, he can draw a light weapon (if he did not already have one out of course), he can try to pin the wyvern (not a bad option, if he managed to succeed then the wynvern is done for). Sure, it isnt the top of his game (assuming that he has no feats or items that help in grappling) but he is still doing quite a bit. Hardly out for the count.



			
				Elder-Basilisk said:
			
		

> If, in the second turn (when he full attacks taking the -20 to grapple), he still reduces the amount of damage he takes because the fighter needs to spend an action excaping from the grapple rather than attacking and may increase his damage (by making a full attack leading with the stinger and wing buffets and then following up with the claw, improved grab, and free stinger attack for successfully grappling a foe). Doubling up on the stinger attack is a bit cheesy and I'm not sure I'd do it as a DM but even if he doesn't, the wyvern has two foes grappled at the end of its initiative (the fighter and the foe he clawed the second round). The fighter probably escapes on his initiative but doesn't get a full attack.




Ok, so now the wyvern (assuming that the fighter failed to pin him last round, which is definately a possibility) takes -20, loses one attack (whichever is holding the fighter) and gets a few attacks on those around him. At this point it is very unlikely that anyone will be grappled however. Even a 1st level mage with a str of 10 has a decent chance of beating the grapple check.

It looks like the claw was the attack which you had capture the fighter in the first place so it is probably still busy holding the fighter and cannot be used during that full attack. Which means no more grappling (by reading talons as plural).

Still, at this point let us assume that it does somehow have 2 foes grappled. If it wants to continue attacking anyone usefully it will keep on taking that -20 and now its attacks are even fewer. (both claws are being used, so no more improved grapples and 'free' stings, even though it likely didnt work that way to begin with)

Also, once it is the fighters turn again, he may attempt to pin it. With that -20 for the wyvern he will likely succeed.

I dont know what sort of rulesbending you are trying to do to say that he cannot do this. 

SRD:
Pin Your Opponent: You can hold your opponent immobile for 1 round by winning an opposed grapple check (made in place of an attack). Once you have an opponent pinned, you have a few options available to you (see below).

Escape from Grapple: You can escape a grapple by winning an opposed grapple check in place of making an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you so desire, but this requires a standard action. If more than one opponent is grappling you, your grapple check result has to beat all their individual check results to escape. (Opponents don’t have to try to hold you if they don’t want to.) If you escape, you finish the action by moving into any space adjacent to your opponent(s).

So, either you are saying that you cannot escape (since they both require useing an attack and winning a grapple check) or that you can pin. They both use the same wording.

At this point it is all but assured that the wyvern will be pinned (there are two seperate people who would be wise to attempt it, even the party caster would have a shot at it).

Even if this wasnt true (ie, he wasnt taking -20 and instead concentrating on the guy he had grappled) then the wyvern would be in for a world of hurt. All it would be able to do would be choose a single one of its attacks to try to hit the fighter with every turn. That is a massive reduction in power.

As is seen from the above however if he does take the -20 then he is in for a world of hurt once he is pinned.

Sounds like a lose/lose situation for the wyvern. He would've been better off 'not' grappling.



			
				Elder-Basilisk said:
			
		

> If he does the same thing in the third turn,




He wont, at this point he is pinned and unable to do anything. Or if not he is likely giving serious thought to leaving the scene from the amount of damage being taken. Being reduced by more than half of ones hp by now (pretty easily) has to be most unfortunate, especially with this guy trying to pin you.

Unless the wyvern likes to fight to the death the battle is effectively over now.



			
				Elder-Basilisk said:
			
		

> it is a single foe against an entire party.




Yeah, there are lots of things that are much more effective when piled on multiples at a time. That is not exactly an issue. Melee brute? not so bad on his own, but multiple? uh oh! Single caster? not so bad on his own but multiple? uh oh! The list goes on and on, through the entire game.



			
				Elder-Basilisk said:
			
		

> For cases that demonstrate the strength of grappling, you want:
> A dragon with the snatch feat
> A remorhaz with its swallow whole ability
> An annis hag facing summoned monsters (take the AoO as the creature closes, deal damage and improved grab, then on the annis' turn, use her special rake rules to make two claw attacks and rend the creature--with the net effect that the creatures die without ever getting to attack).
> ...




Nice list, lets see.

The dragon is tough in pretty much any situation, so this isnt a huge issue to begin with. Nice option for him though. Of course he will be blasted for a few rounds while he takes one character and moves off with them. Probably a dead character unless they have some option open to the, psion or not.

remorhaz, without his extra 8d6 damage in the gullet he would be a pushover. So, in this case, it isnt the grappling so much as the insane fire raging in his stomach. It takes him one attack and a grapple check to get someone in his mouth (he only gets one attack), then the person gets to attempt whatever they want, then another successful grapple check the next round to swallow, then they get an action, then on its next turn they take massive amounts of damage. If this is an impressive grappler then grappling is very weak indeed.

Annis hag vs summoned monsters? umm.. ok. Assuming those summoned monsters werent summoned within close enough to attack anyway, or had reach of their own, then she is good at killing something that is mostly distraction anyway? (not all of them, some are definately brutes, the celestial bison comes to mind for a low level brute)

Constriction guys? Ok, the mound has to hit with both attacks (full attack only), succeed in a grapple check, then, on future rounds, basically all it does is trade in its series of attacks for roughly equivalent damage (no chance of crit, grapple check might fail). Weak.

Party of X vs single whatever. No good, same could be said for just about anything.

Large group of grapplers vs pc's. Likely this will have a ECL that matches its difficulty (four lions gives 7, but a 7th level fighter type is likely to not be grappled in the first place and could kill one every turn, so it must be a lower level party, which means it is deadly, as it should be for being above their level).

So still, except for the dragon (who is rough anyway) the psion would be either just as hosed or only slightly better off.

This is still pretty off topic though. Psions are slightly better off here than wizards and sorcs, but it really wont matter much. It might be a big deal in incredibly unlikely circumstances, but the wizards versitility will come up 'much' more often as a boon than this tidbit will arise.


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## Scion (Sep 14, 2004)

Nail said:
			
		

> I think the evidence supports the assertion that Psions are better "heavy artillery" than Sor/Wiz.




Sure, they can be a heavier hitter (if they spend the appropriate feats and/or are of the appropriate specialization).

But, direct damage spells for sorc/wizard tend to not be very good anyway, especially at higher levels.

All that allowing the shifting of energy types does is help direct damage powers to still be viable at higher levels.

That is pretty much it. So they trade in scaling for a bit more flexibility and some augmentation. Which, when all is said and done, makes them burn out faster if they try to take advantage of it and they dont really do a whole lot more damage. It is simply easier to place.

Personally I dont see any problems with that. I'd like there to be other options at higher levels than having to sit back and use save or die after save or die.. or just be the party buffer (I have seen both of these happen at higher levels when there just werent any other viable options, unless one was willing to try for several, possibly overpowered, prc's and dump them all together into some sort of monsterous creation.. but the game shouldnt have to be like that).

Psionics really are getting closer and closer to being the most perfectly balanced magic system. After a few modifications that I have made (mainly with duration issues and removing save or dies) it is infinitaly better than the standard magic system.


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## Nail (Sep 14, 2004)

Re: Wyvern grappler

In hindsight, given average rolls, the party should have won.  In the actual event, given the rolls at the table....the party still won.  It's an EL 6 for a party of 6 PCs of ~7th level!  It's expected.

Nonetheless, the wyvern did well with the grapple.  Grappling works well.  Try it!



			
				Scion said:
			
		

> Sure, they can be a heavier hitter (if they spend the appropriate feats and/or are of the appropriate specialization).
> 
> But, direct damage spells for sorc/wizard tend to not be very good anyway, especially at higher levels.



Err?  So what, exactly are you arguing about?



			
				Scion said:
			
		

> All that allowing the shifting of energy types does is help direct damage powers to still be viable at higher levels.



Your games must be different than the ones I DM/play in.   Being able to customize energy type to the situation is HUGE.  



			
				scion said:
			
		

> Psionics really are getting closer and closer to being the most perfectly balanced magic system.



I'll certainly agree with the "closer and closer" bit.  And really, the only reason I'm interested in this topic is because the psion seems to be "closer to reasonable" now.  Even 3.0 was so far out there it was easy to dismiss.


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## Scion (Sep 14, 2004)

Nail said:
			
		

> Nonetheless, the wyvern did well with the grapple.  Grappling works well.  Try it!




He did well, but given how the grappling rules work it would seem that the dice were 'heavily' in his favor to have done anywhere near that well. That and the fighter is afraid of grappling, he should've showed that wyvern who was boss! (once it took the huge penalty of course, but if it hadnt done that then only getting one attack a round isnt impressive)



			
				Nail said:
			
		

> Err?  So what, exactly are you arguing about?




About what? I was simply pointing out that being better in grappling is nearly a nonfactor.

A blaster psion (effectively overspecialized, since they are specialized more than a specialist wizard) had 'better' be better at blasting. Yet it comes out around even, but at least the psion is on the ahead side of about even for damage.



			
				Nail said:
			
		

> Your games must be different than the ones I DM/play in.   Being able to customize energy type to the situation is HUGE.




And loseing scalability is also incredibly huge.

I said that it is necissary for it to still be effective, given that this just shows how far behind normal spells can be. Essentially they become worthless (there are times when they are not, but then there are even times when grappling is a problem).



			
				Nail said:
			
		

> I'll certainly agree with the "closer and closer" bit.  And really, the only reason I'm interested in this topic is because the psion seems to be "closer to reasonable" now.  Even 3.0 was so far out there it was easy to dismiss.




Most incarnations of psionics, even from the beginning, have been better than magic in several ways.

Now they have just made it another kind of magic with little special in and of itself, but still, it tends to be more balanced in general than other magics.

Ahh well.. someday it will be perfected


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## nimisgod (Sep 15, 2004)

> But, direct damage spells for sorc/wizard tend to not be very good anyway, especially at higher levels.




Compared to what? The psion's powers?


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## Staffan (Sep 15, 2004)

nimisgod said:
			
		

> Compared to what? The psion's powers?



My guess: compared to the hit points of the stuff you'll be fighting. The 5th level mage unloading his top "boom" spell (_fireball_ or _lightning bolt_) will do ~18 points of damage to something which has 30-70 hp (from looking at some of the CR 5 things in the MM). The 11th level mage unloading *his* top damage spell (_chain lightning_) will do ~39 points to something with hp in the 150-200 range, or with hp in the 100-150 range with tons of resistances/immunities. At higher levels, it becomes much more useful for the mage to focus on save-or-do-bad-stuff spells, because monster hp increase a lot faster than blast spell damage.


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## Thanee (Sep 15, 2004)

Dunno, I found those _Horrid Wiltings_ pretty scary, when I was on the receiving end of them as a player.

 Bye
 Thanee


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## Psion (Sep 15, 2004)

Not to mention "bad stuff" in some of those spells has now been redefined to mean "lotsa damage". (e.g., disintigrate)


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## nimisgod (Sep 15, 2004)

Staffan said:
			
		

> My guess: compared to the hit points of the stuff you'll be fighting. The 5th level mage unloading his top "boom" spell (_fireball_ or _lightning bolt_) will do ~18 points of damage to something which has 30-70 hp (from looking at some of the CR 5 things in the MM). The 11th level mage unloading *his* top damage spell (_chain lightning_) will do ~39 points to something with hp in the 150-200 range, or with hp in the 100-150 range with tons of resistances/immunities. At higher levels, it becomes much more useful for the mage to focus on save-or-do-bad-stuff spells, because monster hp increase a lot faster than blast spell damage.




My group has found that the design philosophy for the core spells you deem weak is that these area effect spells that wizards and sorcerers can cast are meant to deal with/weaken multiple opponents, not obliterate them. IMX, it is the melee fighter type's job to deal ridiculous amounts of damage to single brute monsters. This philosophy seems to change with the advent of power spells like Firebrand, though.

I mean if the wiz/sor can just obliterate his opponents instantly with an area effect spell what are the other party members supposed to do?


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## Plane Sailing (Sep 15, 2004)

It was a huge yet inobvious change from the philosophy of earlier versions of D&D though. In previous versions (when a tough monster might have 8d8+8 HD, ooooh) a 10d6 fireball was still a threat worth worrying about. 

In 3e it is paltry.

The 3.5e version of disintegrate sounds OK until you work out how much damage you are *actually* likely to do with it compared to the hp of the challenges you are likely to be facing. It went from "save or die" to "save or hurt a bit, but at least it wasn't the barbarian getting in a full round 2H power attack".

An interesting potential houserule to try out might be to remove damage caps on spells - allowing fireballs to scale all the way up to 20d6 etc. Of course, the first obvious downside might be metamagic gets much beefier - but I'm more likely to hear complaints about metamagic being too weak rather than too powerful as it is. Might be worth starting a house rules thread on this idea...

Cheers


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## Staffan (Sep 15, 2004)

nimisgod said:
			
		

> My group has found that the design philosophy for the core spells you deem weak is that these area effect spells that wizards and sorcerers can cast are meant to deal with/weaken multiple opponents, not obliterate them



There are some single-target high-level evocations that still only deal the paltry 1d6/level. Well, one at least - _polar ray_.

Also, the guidelines for new spells show that single-target spells shouldn't do more damage per se, just have a higher cap (e.g. a 4th level spell that did 1d6/level to a single target would max out at 15d6, but it takes a 5th level spell to do 15d6 to an area).


			
				Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> It was a huge yet inobvious change from the philosophy of earlier versions of D&D though. In previous versions (when a tough monster might have 8d8+8 HD, ooooh) a 10d6 fireball was still a threat worth worrying about.
> 
> In 3e it is paltry.



Exactly. Monsters got tons and tons more hit points in 3e, and both monsters and fighters do more damage (due to Strength and Power attack), but wizards still never really get any offensive spells that are better than _fireball_.


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## nimisgod (Sep 16, 2004)

> There are some single-target high-level evocations that still only deal the paltry 1d6/level. Well, one at least - polar ray.




For no saving throw. It needs a ranged touch attack, but at these levels most monsters will have a paltry touch AC.



> Exactly. Monsters got tons and tons more hit points in 3e, and both monsters and fighters do more damage (due to Strength and Power attack), but wizards still never really get any offensive spells that are better than fireball.




Your sweeping statement aside, aren't fighters and monsters meant to deal out large amounts of melee damage? I mean, what else is the fighter good for? He certainly can't teleport the party or analyze dweomers. What else is the dire tiger going to do? A CR 5 encounter is meant to be a challenge for a balanced party of four.

In conclusion, I think the core sor/wiz blaster spells are fine. They are "balanced". It's the psionic blaster powers that are not "balanced".


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## Scion (Sep 16, 2004)

of course I feel that the sorc/wiz damage dealing spells need some help whereas the psionic versions might actually be useful after a few levels.

Still, I am guessing you meant dire lion instead of dire tiger, and a dire lion is likely to kill at least one party member of the average 5th level party 

first round: Charge, pounce, claw, claw, rake, rake, bite. If bite hits attempt grapple, if grapple then rake, rake.

whoever that was is either hurting majorly or dead 

Not really here or there, it is late and the lion is a very odd CR.


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## Elder-Basilisk (Sep 16, 2004)

WRT the Dire Lion's CR, creatures actually need to *begin the round grappling* in order to use their rake ability. Thus it's charge pounce, claw, claw, rake, rake, bite, possibly grapple. Round 2: rake, rake, possibly grapple.

As to the Psionic blast powers, you'll note that none or them really go much beyond 1d6/level themselves. What they have over magical blast powers is:
1. The ability to customize the energy type to avoid energy resistance or take advantage of energy vulnerability. (IIRC, only Anarchic creatures have resistance to all energy types).
2. Some of them (energy stun, energy missile) have DCs that scale MUCH faster than magic DCs can possibly scale. (As written a maximally augmented energy stun for a 20th level manifester is DC 29+int+any other bonusses. A meteor Swarm is DC 19+int+any other bonusses; this can go even higher through the use of overchannel, wild surge, manifester level boosts, etc). 
3. The ability to use them at maximum damage/round efficiency until you run out of power points
4. The ability to be manifested under any adverse conditions--grappled, pinned, etc.

Meteor Swarm, Scorching Ray, Disintegrate, and Empowered spells actually break the 1d6/level cap on magic blasting. However, they all have much more limited saving throws and (with the exception of disintegrate which is untyped) a fixed energy descriptor.


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## Scion (Sep 16, 2004)

SRD:
Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a dire lion must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake.


Can be read two ways I suppose.

1. When it establishes a hold it can rake right now.
2. When it establishes a hold it can rake sometime later.

Looks like number one to me though. If it wins the grapple then it establishes a hold and can rake.


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## Elder-Basilisk (Sep 16, 2004)

MM: 313-314 said:
			
		

> Rake (ex): A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe. Normally a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks [314] that it can only use against a grappled foe. Rake attacks are not subject to the -4 penalty for attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple.
> A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake--it can't begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.




While the restriction of grappling monsters to one natural attack is inappropriately buried in this glossary entry (thus providing one of the few bits of unclarity remaining in the core grapple rules which are otherwise quite clearly presented in 3.5), the glossary seems an entirely reasonable place to put a complete description of rake. This is hardly a 3e heavy crossbowism.


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## Scion (Sep 16, 2004)

I am guessing that you were addressing me, although your post does nothing to address my point. ::shrugs::

Specific overrides the general. We all know that rakes can be used in a grapple. Rake even says that it can only be used in a grapple. Improved grab overrides this description in a couple of ways.

Specific overrides the general.


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## Thanee (Sep 16, 2004)

There are other ways to get Rake to use, like Pounce.

 I'd also read it that Improved Grab does not allow a creature to Rake immediately, tho, that's far from clear admittedly and certainly works either way.

 Maybe it's also a specific advantage of pouncy creatures like the Dire Lion, since the Annis Hag, for example, does not have the Rake part in her Improved Grab description. *shrug*

 Bye
 Thanee


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## Scion (Sep 16, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> There are other ways to get Rake to use, like Pounce.




Hence the example with the lion


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## Nail (Sep 16, 2004)

We're talking about dire lion *Psions* vz tiger *wizards* here, right?  Just trying to stay on-topic.


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## Nail (Sep 22, 2004)

Found it!


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## Scion (Sep 22, 2004)

Nail said:
			
		

> Found it!




Congrats


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## Elder-Basilisk (Sep 22, 2004)

Yeah, OTOH, the description of the Annis Hag's Rake ability seems to have very little to do with the rake description in the glossary. It really looks like an almost completely different ability given the same name. The Sahuaghin's rake ability is similar in that regard. Only the pouncy rake creatures seem to have anything like the ability described in the glossary.



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> There are other ways to get Rake to use, like Pounce.
> 
> I'd also read it that Improved Grab does not allow a creature to Rake immediately, tho, that's far from clear admittedly and certainly works either way.
> 
> ...


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