# Wil Wheaton Drops Dungeon Column



## WayneLigon (Jun 8, 2005)

In his blog Wil says he's dropping the Wil Save column in Dungeon, apparently because of bad feedback from it.


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## Jeff Wilder (Jun 8, 2005)

How bizarre.  I've never heard anyone say anything bad about it.  I've enjoyed every single column, and I'm a pretty critical person.  (Of course, I wasn't a Star Trek fan, so I don't have any kinda hate for the guy.)


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## Mouseferatu (Jun 8, 2005)

I'm sorry to hear that. I really enjoyed Wil's column. In fact, I frequently flipped to it before reading anything else. 

Still, the man's got to do what's right for him.


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## d20Dwarf (Jun 8, 2005)

First thing I read every month.


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## Olive (Jun 8, 2005)

Same here. And I liked it when he wrote about games other than D&D.


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## johnsemlak (Jun 8, 2005)

Just a guess, but it may be some people objected because they don't like anything in Dragon/Dungeon not related to (official) D&D.  This seems to be a common trend.


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## atom crash (Jun 8, 2005)

When I first heard he was doing the column, I just knew I was going to hate it. When his first column published, I flipped to the back of the issue to read it with trepidation, thinking to myself, "What in the world can this guy possibly have to say that I'll be interested in reading?"

Lo and behold, it was actually really good. And I've read and enjoyed his columns every month.

I guess I'll miss them.


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## billd91 (Jun 8, 2005)

That's too bad. I enjoyed the column. It's kind of refreshing to read a column about gamer lifestyles and general gamer commentary rather than specific ideas on how to run your games, fluff, or crunch.


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## ColonelHardisson (Jun 8, 2005)

I enjoyed his column quite a bit. It was refreshing to see something that showed that games are a part of life, not life itself. It's sad that he got such negative feedback for what I felt was a positive step forward for both Dungeon and gaming itself.


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## mac1504 (Jun 8, 2005)

[Posting Opinion]

Sorry, I just didn't like any of the articles. I thought it got kind of old talking about playing D&D with his stepson after the first article. Maybe it had to due with the fact that I had read some of his blogs relating some of his same experiences. A lot of it just seemed like a lot of cheese.

Not that I have anything against him (I'm not much of a Trek fan), his articles just didn't appeal to me.


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## Ranger REG (Jun 8, 2005)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> Just a guess, but it may be some people objected because they don't like anything in Dragon/Dungeon not related to (official) D&D.  This seems to be a common trend.



No kidding.

Been through the wringers on the _Polyhedron_ subject with them stuck-up snobs. And all this time, I thought elitists only live in high school campuses and college Greek houses.


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## Talath (Jun 8, 2005)

Jeff Wilder said:
			
		

> How bizarre.  I've never heard anyone say anything bad about it.  I've enjoyed every single column, and I'm a pretty critical person.  (Of course, I wasn't a Star Trek fan, so I don't have any kinda hate for the guy.)




Actually, today I read many negative posts from suscribers on the Paizo forums; it was bad, people were making bad comments and personal attacks against Wil Wheaton. One poster took it upon himself to put "Die Will Save Die" as his signature. All in all, it was mostly a group of immature posters, but then again, the internet is full of them.

I saw a few posters from here on there, Diaglo being one of them (although he was civil and just stated he didn't prefer the column). 

Seriously, it was a horrible thread, and it angered me to see how people could be so shallow and insensitive.


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## Alzrius (Jun 8, 2005)

Which is why EN World is the only forums I visit anymore.

I'm going to miss Will's column. I liked it more than I thought I would, and I found it to put a human face on the game we all enjoy. It's sad, but it's more sad that he's cancelling it since some jerks are being uppity about it.


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## Ranger REG (Jun 8, 2005)

Talath said:
			
		

> Seriously, it was a horrible thread, and it angered me to see how people could be so shallow and insensitive.



Add "elitist" and you have the majority (at least 51%) of the _Dungeon_ subscriber base.


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## Mark (Jun 8, 2005)

I like the idea of high profile celebrities writing a column in the magazine but I think it would be better if it were a different celebrity each issue.  There must a many of them that game now or remember their gaming days with enough fondness to have a good story or two in them.  I wish Wil well and hope he finds continued success on his new path.


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## Sholari (Jun 8, 2005)

d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> First thing I read every month.




Ditto.  Really, sorry to hear this.  I thought he did a great job.


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## atom crash (Jun 8, 2005)

[sarcasm]Well, that column was wasting space that could be used for more gaming content. I'd like to see that page devoted to more exotic weapons and Prestige Classes and spellcasters who cast spells based on a system with different flavor text, cause lord knows there just aren't enough Prestige Classes on the market, especially those focused on exotic weapons and strange spellcasters.[/sarcasm]

It's really a sad commentary when a vocal minority can ruin it for everyone. I'd rather the editors do away with the letter to the editor section.



> I like the idea of high profile celebrities writing a column in the magazine but I think it would be better if it were a different celebrity each issue. There must a many of them that game now or remember their gaming days with enough fondness to have a good story or two in them. I wish Wil well and hope he finds continued success on his new path.




I'll agree with this sentiment, but only on the agreement that Vin Diesel never ever gets to write one and talk about his dark elf character.


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## Ranger REG (Jun 8, 2005)

atom crash said:
			
		

> I'll agree with this sentiment, but only on the agreement that Vin Diesel never ever gets to write one and talk about his dark elf character.



You and what army?   

Let me hear Vin.


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## Darrin Drader (Jun 8, 2005)

I liked his column and I like his blog (though I can't see what he has posted on this subject since his site won't come up right now).

I don't doubt that there was negative feedback, but one thing that kind of bothered me about the column was the one he did on Magic, and then last month's column on how it's been a year since he announced the D&D campaign and they still hadn't played. It seems to me that he may have been having a problem finding stuff to talk about. Like I said, I like the guy and I'm glad he got a shot at this, but how much can a lapsed player who hasn't really played at all have to say on the subject?

Regardless, I think he's a gifted writer and I wish him well with his future endeavors. Its a shame this didn't work out for him.


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## Ranger REG (Jun 8, 2005)

Well, if you guys want him back ... *chuckles* ... or at least to counteract the "Die Will Die" thread, post your appreciation on Paizo's messageboards.

Oh, and if you know one of the "Kill Wil" negative posters locally, find him and punch him in the face (or pinch her nipple hard).*

*Disclaimer: I publicly do not condone violence.


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## satori01 (Jun 8, 2005)

If Wil ever gets around to reading this thread, I have to say:

Dont let the bastards get you down, and thanks for all the fish!

I enjoyed Wil's column quite a bit.  Sure it often only tangently was connected to D&D but I found the personal ruminations on someones experiences to be a nice change in the thick rules heavy atmposphere that is Dungeon.

I would much rather see Downer and all the comics leave Dungeon then Wil Save, (except Mount Zogon).

I wouldnt mind guest Authors reminicing about old killer dungeons, ala Roger Moore and a reprint of Tucker's Kobolds, or Gary Gygax doing whatever he pleases, but I seem to remember people not liking Gary's column in Dragon, so methinks any 'Celebrity' column is going to be short lived.


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## johnsemlak (Jun 8, 2005)

Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> I liked his column and I like his blog (though I can't see what he has posted on this subject since his site won't come up right now).




From Wil's blog:
*



			# I have written my last column for Dungeon. When I started, I was under the impression that I could write whatever I wanted, as long as it was related to gaming. So I wrote about games I love, like Illuminati and Car Wars. I wrote about playing Magic with Nolan, convention gaming, and playing True Dungeon at SoCal GenCon last year. I really enjoyed writing the columns, but the feedback I got was largely negative (it's really time to just get the  over Star Trek, nerds), so Erik Mona, my editor at Dungeon, asked me to write columns that were focused purely on D&D. I tried my best, but my life was just too full to put in the time that running or participating in a campaign requires. It was very hard to write a column about D&D when I couldn't play at least once a week, so I told Erik last week that I felt that I couldn't provide the quality and consistency that he and Dungeon readers deserve, and he graciously accepted my resignation. I loved working for Erik, who is a fantastic editor, and I will continue to read both Dungeon and Dragon, which I feel have improved tremendously under his leadership. I'm sad that I can't be part of it any longer.
		
Click to expand...


*


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## Agamon (Jun 8, 2005)

I liked the new direction of Dungeon, including Wil's column.  Too bad a few idiots posting on the internet pushed him away.


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## trancejeremy (Jun 8, 2005)

Not that I have anything against him (at least, until I visted his blog and saw his bizzare political rant. I'm sure GWB is shaking in his boots now that Mr. Wheaton is going to use his new blog to get out the "truth" about him. Mwhahahahahahahaha.). But I never understood the point of having someone write a column in a gaming magazine that really isn't a gamer. 

I mean, does having a bit part on Star Trek qualify him to write about D&D? Maybe he played as a kid, but if he doesn't on a regular basis, then why have a column?


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## billd91 (Jun 8, 2005)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Not that I have anything against him (at least, until I visted his blog and saw his bizzare political rant. I'm sure GWB is shaking in his boots now that Mr. Wheaton is going to use his new blog to get out the "truth" about him. Mwhahahahahahahaha.). But I never understood the point of having someone write a column in a gaming magazine that really isn't a gamer.
> 
> I mean, does having a bit part on Star Trek qualify him to write about D&D? Maybe he played as a kid, but if he doesn't on a regular basis, then why have a column?




Isn't a really gamer? Have you really read his columns? He plays games when he gets the chance, including at conventions. Just because he isn't playing D&D every week, that doesn't mean he's not a gamer.


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## billd91 (Jun 8, 2005)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Add "elitist" and you have the majority (at least 51%) of the _Dungeon_ subscriber base.




Hey, just because you ended up on the losing side of the Polyhedron debate doesn't mean you should sling barbs.


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## Teflon Billy (Jun 8, 2005)

billd91 said:
			
		

> That's too bad. I enjoyed the column. It's kind of refreshing to read a column about gamer lifestyles and general gamer commentary rather than specific ideas on how to run your games, fluff, or crunch.




Exactly.

What a shame that the guy has left. I wish I had given some _positive_ feeback to offset the Star Trek Nerds' negativity


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## Frostmarrow (Jun 8, 2005)

Oh look! That's that kid from Stand by Me.

[heh, sorry, I just hadn't realised]


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## Angel Tarragon (Jun 8, 2005)

Nuts, I was really enjoying reading his articles.


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## satori01 (Jun 8, 2005)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> I mean, does having a bit part on Star Trek qualify him to write about D&D? Maybe he played as a kid, but if he doesn't on a regular basis, then why have a column?




Actually the fact that it was apparent that Wil was not playing D&D on a regular basis but trying to, part of the appeal of the column, to me at least.

Given the "graying" of the hobby, I do not doubt that a very common theme in people's playing life is trying to maintain one's identity as a gamer when on simply does not have either the time or the personel to play with.

From the demographic data we have been told, the "sleepover, all summer day and night" style of play is the minority. Most groups with gainfully employed adults probably average once a week play sessions at most.


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## ColonelHardisson (Jun 8, 2005)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> But I never understood the point of having someone write a column in a gaming magazine that really isn't a gamer.
> 
> I mean, does having a bit part on Star Trek qualify him to write about D&D? Maybe he played as a kid, but if he doesn't on a regular basis, then why have a column?




I spoke to him at a book signing. Believe me, he's a gamer. He enthusiastically told me about a d20 campaign he was going to be playing in, and pretty much revealed he'd been playing RPGs for years. So he had a year or so when he wasn't running a campaign. Happens to all of us. Doesn't make any of us less of a gamer.

Why is he qualified to write a gaming column? He's an articulate writer.


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## wingsandsword (Jun 8, 2005)

billd91 said:
			
		

> Hey, just because you ended up on the losing side of the Polyhedron debate doesn't mean you should sling barbs.



There wasn't a debate there, that implies there was any kind of dialogue.  There was just a lot of people shouting that they didn't want anything other than D&D in any magazine, not even other d20 games, and a lot of bile spewed about Polyhedron being a total waste, they slung plenty of barbs on their own.  Polyhedron supporters bought the magazine because they wanted it, and said they liked it.  The Poly haters got loud, angry and condescending, and the squeaky wheel got the grease, and we got the shaft.

I see the same attitude that has brought down Wil Save as being the same attitude as wrecked Polyhedron, and pretty much wrecked Dragon: A large faction of readers who don't want anything other than a monthly packet of "Official" new feats/spells/prestige classes and plenty of glossy hype about the newest WotC D&D books.  In 2000, the preeminent magazine of the roleplaying industry, focusing on D&D, became just D&D and quality began a downward slide.  Years later I can go back to a Dragon from a decade or two ago, pick it up and read a fine article on the art of DM'ing, a bit about how to adapt a historic period or fantasy novel into D&D, or some intelligent discussion.  When you pick up a Dragon from the 2000 to present era 10 or 20 years from now, will it still intrique you, or will it be just a collection of then-outdated rules and tie-in hype to the book of the month?


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## Simplicity (Jun 8, 2005)

That's too bad...  I actually really enjoyed his columns.
Sure, there's probably a little too much about him teaching his stepson the Gamer Way.
Sure, there probably could be more columns about D&D itself. 
But the column was still entertaining.
For some reason, its one of the first things I flip to in Dungeon, just because it's good writing and its spoken from the heart.


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## Simplicity (Jun 8, 2005)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Been through the wringers on the _Polyhedron_ subject with them stuck-up snobs. And all this time, I thought elitists only live in high school campuses and college Greek houses.




Just because you disagree with others about what constitutes good content for Dungeon doesn't make them elitist.  If you thought people with strong emotions on random subjects only existed in high school campuses and Greek houses, then you need to spend more time on the Internet...


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## James Heard (Jun 8, 2005)

To be fair to everyone that apparently led to Mr. Wheaton's decision, he doesn't seem like he's happy with _much_ right now and going through a revision process in general. That's something that I understand completely as a creative person myself, and it might not be that the feedback was inordinately vile enough to get him to cuss up a storm and toss the column out the window but the timing of the criticism. Like other people have said, he's an articulate writer and he's a gamer. It's not like he's said he's dropping the hobby or going to go on a Jack Chick anti-D&D rampage. He just sounds like he's realigning his life and revising his creative/professional priorities. 

Personally I'm glad he dropped it, not because I didn't like it but because it would suck if he was just doing it so he could afford to keep up with WOTC's product release schedule in spending money. Hey, I'm still waiting for Stand By Me II: First Blood. It could happen, right?


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## DonTadow (Jun 8, 2005)

I'm really going to miss his article.  It was the reason I subscribed.  I can' get adventures anywhere for a lot cheaper and more geared towards my campaign.  All of the advice I've seen in there I've seen for free at roleplayer tips.  But his column brought, what i thought, an aura of sophisitication to the magazine.  I loved relating to a guy who grew up, still games and has a pretty decent life.  It really irked me in there to here these guys diss the article because it didn't have a d20 stat in it.  It was just really annoying.  IF a magazine can't have one good editorial article in their (and I could care less about the age of worm path) then it's not at a level that I would care to waste 40 bucks on a year.


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## vulcan_idic (Jun 8, 2005)

I'm really going to miss this it was one of the real bright spots in the magazine.  Maybe we could start a letter writing campaign? Save Wil Save...

What sort of save do you suppose we'd need to roll?


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## vulcan_idic (Jun 8, 2005)

My former jest being just that, having read his blog seeing what he has to say, Mr. Wheaton certainly needs to do what's best for him.  I have really enjoyed all he has had to share with us while he's been doing his column.  I can certainly also understand where he's coming from with negative responses...  I'm nobody, but I know it really gets on my nerves when people annoy me with things and just don't let them drop.  I understand his position and just want to let him know that I hope whatever comes his way in the future is great.


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## LeapingShark (Jun 8, 2005)

The articles were good, I enjoyed them and I can identify with alot of what he wrote.  I remember laughing out loud at couple of things that sounded just like what happened while gaming with my friends too.  

But I am still happy that the space is now available for something else. My feeling is that the Internet is _loaded_ with enough blogs, message boards, and fan websites stuffed with the kinds of anecdotal reading entertainment that you might find in the monthly Wil Save column.  There's enough of that kind of entertainment freely available to keep you reading for hours on end, every single day for the rest of your life.  Just pick your favorite forum and read threads at enworld!  

_But there is no other place on earth where you can go every single month and find 3 new top quality *adventures* often written by big names in the business and always accessorized with full color maps and pictures all going for a measly cost of $8._  So I think every additional page availalbe that can be devoted towards the _adventures_, is a huge benefit.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Jun 8, 2005)

I know it doesn't appear to be a popular opinion here, but I do think that a magazine whose theme is "adventures and DM material for D&D 3.5 edition" should mostly include that.  I would likely buy a magazine that was about general gaming information and tidbits.  Well, on second thought, I probably wouldn't.  Normally I can read this sort of thing on the internet for free.  I'm guessing Wil's blog is as or more entertaining than his article.

I have no problem with Wil, despite being a Star Trek fan.  I liked him on the show even.  I liked his column.  I did find a couple of them to give me the impression of "Look at me, I'm a star and I once played D&D.  I don't like D&D enough to make time to play it even once a month, but I did play Magic last year."

I understand being busy, perhaps even busy enough not to have time to play.  That's fine, and that's the way the priorities work in his life.  Still, I think it's more appropriate to have a column written by someone who is more associately with the theme of the magazine: game designers, etc.

I wouldn't have minded keeping his column in.  But choosing between the column and more adventures?  I choose more adventures or longer ones.


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## Keeper of Secrets (Jun 8, 2005)

Whereas I did not particularly care for what he talked about most of the time, I did like reading the article and did like that it was something that was unique.  Its really too bad that it is ending - especially under the circumstances.  Frankly, this amounts to some nasty people bullying him out of something that he clearly enjoyed.  

Its a damn shame.


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## Mark Hope (Jun 8, 2005)

It's a real shame.  Not just because Will isn't writing his _Dungeon_ column anymore (I enjoyed it immensely and found much there that I could empathise with) but because his decision to stop was apparently partly caused by the petty bleatings of some truly witless jerks on the Paizo site.  Some of the responses in the thread over there were just disgusting.  I wonder if Erik Mona's request to Will to modify the content of his column was motivated by actual falling sales figures, or if it was just in response to those puerile rantings.  If the latter, then score one for Team Dweeb, I guess.  Damn shame.


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## BiggusGeekus (Jun 8, 2005)

If they were going to drop anything I kinda would have preferred "Downer".

Wheaton's column was fine.


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## Steel_Wind (Jun 8, 2005)

I enjoyed the column initially.  I was angry with the negative feedback and posted positive feedbacl on Paizo and to Will privately.

I was noticing that Will was trying too hard to write about gaming though.  Honestly - I don't think his heart is in it. I think the thing  that has latched on to him right now is poker.  That's where his passion lies and lately? It showed.


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## lrsach01 (Jun 8, 2005)

Gotta join the love fest here. I'm going to miss Will's column. He's my generation...post-genXers.


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## diaglo (Jun 8, 2005)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> In his blog Wil says he's dropping the Wil Save column in Dungeon, apparently because of bad feedback from it.





WoooHOooooo.. maybe they will use the space for more adventures.


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## diaglo (Jun 8, 2005)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> If they were going to drop anything I kinda would have preferred "Downer".




ditto.


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## diaglo (Jun 8, 2005)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> No kidding.
> 
> Been through the wringers on the _Polyhedron_ subject with them stuck-up snobs. And all this time, I thought elitists only live in high school campuses and college Greek houses.





i gets what i pay for. i don't want the dross.


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## Gentlegamer (Jun 8, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> I see the same attitude that has brought down Wil Save as being the same attitude as wrecked Polyhedron, and pretty much wrecked Dragon: A large faction of readers who don't want anything other than a monthly packet of "Official" new feats/spells/prestige classes and plenty of glossy hype about the newest WotC D&D books.  In 2000, the preeminent magazine of the roleplaying industry, focusing on D&D, became just D&D and quality began a downward slide.  Years later I can go back to a Dragon from a decade or two ago, pick it up and read a fine article on the art of DM'ing, a bit about how to adapt a historic period or fantasy novel into D&D, or some intelligent discussion.  When you pick up a Dragon from the 2000 to present era 10 or 20 years from now, will it still intrique you, or will it be just a collection of then-outdated rules and tie-in hype to the book of the month?



This is why I stopped collecting The Dragon after many years . . .


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## diaglo (Jun 8, 2005)

Gentlegamer said:
			
		

> This is why I stopped collecting The Dragon after many years . . .



ditto. Gave up on Dragon... back when it was The Dragon. even though, i didn't stop my subscription until the 250 CD came out.


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## IronWolf (Jun 8, 2005)

I am sad to see that happen.  I know the article took some flak over on the Paizo boards, but I  thought they were just the vocal minority.  I always enjoyed the column, it was one of the first I turned to.  It was only one page and I usually found it interesting - at least an entertaining read.


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## DaveMage (Jun 8, 2005)

I enjoyed his column, and I'm sorry to see him go.

I like the suggestion, though, of a "guest celeb" column each month - maybe expounding on their favorite D&D experience.


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## Menexenus (Jun 8, 2005)

I agree with Colonel Hardisson that it was nice to spend a page at the end of the magazine putting a human face on a gaming and RPGs in general.  After all, gaming has a pretty bad reputation, sometimes well-deserved.  It was nice to see an adult, non-munchkin perspective on how gaming fits into a crowded life.  Let's face it, the average age of a D&D player is going up (because we original, hardcore gamers are aging).  It was nice to see an article in Dungeon that paid some respect to this fact.

So I like the concept of the Wil Save article.  However, I have to agree with Wil himself that the quality of his articles was suffering because of the restrictions being placed on it by his editors.  I think it is a shame that Wil Save is dying because I like the concept of an article that shows the trials and tribulations of an adult gamer.  But I think Wil is probably making the right decision for him, and I respect him for the high standards he has for his writing and his willingness to accept that he was not meeting his own standards.

If you're reading this Wil, I have nothing but respect for you.  Take care.


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## Henry (Jun 8, 2005)

Actually, it doesn't sound like he quit because of negative feedback - it sounds like he's rearranging a LOT of things in his life (quitting igrep, not doing any more conventions this year, rearranging his blog), and Dungeon's one of the things he's cutting for not being worth it to him right now. I wish him the best (God knows I can't understand his fascination with poker ) and I hope he and family are doing O.K.


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## qstor (Jun 8, 2005)

Agamon said:
			
		

> I liked the new direction of Dungeon, including Wil's column.  Too bad a few idiots posting on the internet pushed him away.





Same here..It was good to get something different in Dungeon than the same old stuff from the past. Will, hope you reconsider 

Mike


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## Quasqueton (Jun 8, 2005)

I don't subscribe to Dungeon, but I do buy a copy off the newstand every two or three months. I enjoyed Wil Save.

As for all those saying:

"WoooHOooooo.. maybe they will use the space for more adventures."

"every additional page availalbe that can be devoted towards the adventures, is a huge benefit."

"a magazine whose theme is 'adventures and DM material for D&D 3.5 edition' should mostly include that."

Good gracious, guys. It is only one page. I hope Erik sticks an ad in that spot to make some more money, and just to cheese you off.

Quasqueton


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## Belen (Jun 8, 2005)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Add "elitist" and you have the majority (at least 51%) of the _Dungeon_ subscriber base.




Oh bull.  I love the Will Save column and hated Polyhedron.  I think you're still a bit raw about the switch.


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## Mystery Man (Jun 8, 2005)

Agamon said:
			
		

> I liked the new direction of Dungeon, including Wil's column.  Too bad a few idiots posting on the internet pushed him away.




It's amazing what some people will say about someone that they wouldn't have the balls to say in front of thier face. I wouldn't have given them the satisfaction. They were almost like internet stalkers, posting over and over again the same thing. Idiotic.

I hope the _next_ last page article is about collectible doileys.


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## Barendd Nobeard (Jun 8, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> WoooHOooooo.. maybe they will use the space for more adventures.



 Yeah, those one-page adventures are soooooooo exciting.


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## Dominic (Jun 8, 2005)

Wil's column was the only reason I considered keeping my subscription.  Having two young boys at home that I hope to involve in gaming (dont worry, I have a large basement for when they are older), it was fun to read the stories about his son.


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## diaglo (Jun 8, 2005)

Mystery Man said:
			
		

> I hope the _next_ last page article is about collectible doileys.



which would still be an improvement


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## diaglo (Jun 8, 2005)

Barendd Nobeard said:
			
		

> Yeah, those one-page adventures are soooooooo exciting.



maps of mystery.
side trek

orc and pie...


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## Varianor Abroad (Jun 8, 2005)

I'll miss the column. It fit my life situation pretty well. Plus it was really cool to see that a celebrity played D&D.


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## Ranes (Jun 8, 2005)

I'm glad it's gone but not because I didn't like it. I quite enjoyed it for what it was. But the writing was on the wall when Wil penned the piece about not being able to get a game going with his stepsons. If he'd been able to participate in regular game and write about it, it would have been the perfect end to the magazine. Every month, that's what I hoped was coming. Every month, I got something else instead. I found his column entertaining but, given the content of the rest of the magazine, I felt that Wil would have connected with more of the readers had he been talking about games of D&D.

Come to think of it, I wouldn't have minded reading his opinions on rules, editions or even new publications from WotC and others. I would have settled for reading more about his recollected Car Wars or Illuminati experiences, for that matter. But it seems that his priorities lay elsewhere. I respect that but think his decision to take the column no further, under those circumstances, was the right one. I am saddened by the vitriol he apparently endured from some readers but he's been around the block and I'm sure he's big enough to take that in his stride.

Best of luck to him and his re-vamped blog.


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## GlassJaw (Jun 8, 2005)

Although the anti-Wil threads were getting pretty out of control on the Paizo boards, if you take Wil at his word, it doesn't sound like that's the reason he decided to stop.

I don't know, I was always kind of neutral on Wil Save.  I always read it but sometimes I didn't get the point.  After reading the column, I always felt like he was trying to be really deep and poignant but it always fell short.  *shrugs*  I certainly didn't hate it by any means and if I was to vote something off the Dungeon island, it would certainly be the lame comics or the letters before Wil Save.  The letters and comics take a lot more than 1 page.  And who needs a letters page when you have message boards?


----------



## JPL (Jun 8, 2005)

I guess I'd rather see Monte Cook, or Robin Laws, or Ken Hite, get one page a month to do whatever they want.

And personally...I find Wil kind of depressing.  He was on frigging ST:TNG, and he threw it away, and it still seems to eat at him. 

And how did Wes end up a Starfleet Lieutenant [j.g.] in "Nemesis," anyway?  I mean, that's swell and all, glad to have you back, Wes, but how did Super-Wesley, the Chosen One, who was piloting the freaking Enterprise at 16, end up at 32 as the third shift engineering supervisor on the Titan?  And weren't you supposed to be, like, exploring the cosmos and such?  And time and space?

I guess I kind of blend Wes and Wil together in my mind into one depressing underachiever...and I see too much of myself in that guy, y'know?


----------



## LeapingShark (Jun 8, 2005)

Dominic said:
			
		

> Wil's column was the only reason I considered keeping my subscription.  Having two young boys at home that I hope to involve in gaming (dont worry, I have a large basement for when they are older), it was fun to read the stories about his son.



Well for goodness sakes go bookmark Wil's blog then, you can get stories about his stepson in spades, and for free!


----------



## TerraDave (Jun 8, 2005)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> And all this time, I thought elitists only live in high school campuses and college Greek houses.




[OT] Oh no, they are everywhere [/OT]

Sham about the column. I hope Mr. Mona does know to take anything said on the internet with a large grain of salt (he must, right?) and it does sound like there may be a little more to droping the column than that. But again, it is a shame.


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## Bagpuss (Jun 8, 2005)

It's about the only thing I read with any regularity in Dungeon, since I'm not currently playing D&D. Certain it is 100 times better than that awful two page artistic mess they call the comic.


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## Jeff Wilder (Jun 8, 2005)

JPL said:
			
		

> He was on frigging ST:TNG, and he threw it away, and it still seems to eat at him.



I know very little about _Star Trek_, and even less about any behind-the-scenes stuff.  How did he throw it away?  (I've always been under the impression that the fans despised his character so much that his character went away, which doesn't sound to me like he had much say in the matter.)


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Jun 8, 2005)

Wil's column was my favorite part of Dungeon... though, I always wondered why it was in Dungeon and not Dragon.

I loved all the stuff about his stepson.  It always warmed my heart just a little.  I believe his first column actually made me cry a little.  But - I'm a wussy, misty-eyed, cry-at-almost-anything type of gal.


----------



## KaosDevice (Jun 8, 2005)

I liked Will Save but really felt it belonged more in Dragon then Dungeon, but that might just be me. I'm more with the 1 sheet on doiley collecting.


----------



## Darkness (Jun 8, 2005)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Add "elitist" [to shallow and insensitive] and you have the majority (at least 51%) of the _Dungeon_ subscriber base.



 Please refrain from resorting to insulting blanket generalizations. Thanks. This goes for everyone, in case it needs to be said.


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## TerraDave (Jun 8, 2005)

Jeff Wilder said:
			
		

> I know very little about _Star Trek_, and even less about any behind-the-scenes stuff.  How did he throw it away?  (I've always been under the impression that the fans despised his character so much that his character went away, which doesn't sound to me like he had much say in the matter.)




They took the charecter in a different direction (ultimately off the ship) that made him less important and less annoying.  But it is my understanding that he left after a dispute with the producers. I don't know how much he was really "throwing away" at that point.


----------



## ecliptic (Jun 8, 2005)

Noooo.

Dammit the first article I read when I open Dungeon. Sometimes I never read anything but that. That sucks.


----------



## JPL (Jun 8, 2005)

TerraDave said:
			
		

> They took the charecter in a different direction (ultimately off the ship) that made him less important and less annoying.  But it is my understanding that he left after a dispute with the producers. I don't know how much he was really "throwing away" at that point.




He quit as a series regular, as I understand, because the producers wouldn't accomodate his schedule with regard to a movie he wanted to do.  So Wes left for the Academy, and was seen infrequently thereafter.  His later guest episodes were uniformly excellent, though, as Wes became more flawed and fallible.

But the damage was done, since we'll always remember how the doctor's son got to pilot the ship when he was 16, at a time when even non-commissioned officers [much less non-Starfleet boy geniuses] supposedly weren't allowed on the bridge at all.


----------



## thalmin (Jun 8, 2005)

I am also sad to see Wil's column go. First thing I read in each issue.

Wil, best of luck to you.


----------



## The_Universe (Jun 8, 2005)

I liked Wil's column, and I read it first (as did apparently many here) after recieving my copy of Dungeon. 

You can bitch and moan all you want about losing space for adventures, but we're talking about 1 page, here, people.  

So, Erik and/or Wil - I liked the column, my wife liked the column, and it's too bad it's got to go.


----------



## diaglo (Jun 8, 2005)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> You can bitch and moan all you want about losing space for adventures, but we're talking about 1 page, here, people.



apparently, we don't have to bitch and moan. the column wil be gone.


----------



## Ariddrake (Jun 8, 2005)

I'm very sad to see Wil's column go, I read it every month. It only took up one page, it was at the end on the magazine, and from his writing you can tell that he loved the games he wrote about. All the people that keep whining about his star trek character really should move on with their lives.


----------



## SWBaxter (Jun 8, 2005)

Jeff Wilder said:
			
		

> I know very little about _Star Trek_, and even less about any behind-the-scenes stuff. How did he throw it away?




From his FAQ:

http://www.wilwheaton.net/faq.php#trek

I think "throw it away" is a bit of mischaracterization, but then again I've only read one side of the story.


----------



## DonTadow (Jun 8, 2005)

Mark Hope said:
			
		

> It's a real shame.  Not just because Will isn't writing his _Dungeon_ column anymore (I enjoyed it immensely and found much there that I could empathise with) but because his decision to stop was apparently partly caused by the petty bleatings of some truly witless jerks on the Paizo site.  Some of the responses in the thread over there were just disgusting.  I wonder if Erik Mona's request to Will to modify the content of his column was motivated by actual falling sales figures, or if it was just in response to those puerile rantings.  If the latter, then score one for Team Dweeb, I guess.  Damn shame.



It really is and its a shame they justify themselves.  Some say oh he wquit on his own, but, as a writer, I know how stressed and pissed off i get when i'm writing good content.  When I know my stuff is relevent, and a hack of an editor tells me to change my stuff up because of a couple of readers.  I'd just quit too.  I'm not going to have my hand be the puppet of people not sophisticated enough to undertand my writing.


----------



## diaglo (Jun 8, 2005)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> I'm not going to have my hand be the puppet of people not sophisticated enough to undertand my writing.




could you splain this. i don't understand what you are getting at.


----------



## Quickbeam (Jun 8, 2005)

Like others have already stated, I was surprised to find myself enjoying the column and it became the first item I read each month.  I can understand why there were those who didn't appreciate the personal (and sometimes slightly off topic) anecdotes, but for my part it was nice to listen to someone sharing personal thoughts, memories and experiences related to gaming.


----------



## diaglo (Jun 8, 2005)

Quickbeam said:
			
		

> Like others have already stated, I was surprised to find myself enjoying the column and it became the first item I read each month.  I can understand why there were those who didn't appreciate the personal (and sometimes slightly off topic) anecdotes, but for my part it was nice to listen to someone sharing personal thoughts, memories and experiences related to gaming.



maybe i should write the column then.

and you can read all about real D&D.

Original D&D(1974) is the only true game. All the other editions are just poor imitations of the real thing.


----------



## billd91 (Jun 8, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> maybe i should write the column then.
> 
> and you can read all about real D&D.
> 
> Original D&D(1974) is the only true game. All the other editions are just poor imitations of the real thing.




No thanks. One good swift kick to the record player, a scratched vinyl, and I have all the broken record I need.


----------



## DonTadow (Jun 8, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> could you splain this. i don't understand what you are getting at.



For instance, these people who mare complaining either want him to write about things they want him to write about or leave (which he has).  As a writer, you hate this.  I've worked for a newspaper for 5 years and we have readers whom sometimes want articles on particular subjects.  As a writer, i hate these types of assignments because I dont have my heart into them.  

I feel that they wanted him to write about what they wanted him to write about turning his hands and voice into nothing more than a puppet with them pulling the strings.


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## Jupp (Jun 8, 2005)

Too bad he made that decision, especially if its true that the reason he did it was because some *insert correct word here* were constantly bitching about the column. The argument that you could get more adventures into Dungeon without that columns is absolutely laughable   as if one more page of 70+ pages would make an adventure x times cooler and better  

I found his column was worth readin since it sometimes dealt with things not directly linked to D&D or RPGs. His story on getting Nolan to the game table was cool. It was a nice diversion from the adventures and the crunch in Dungeon.

I hope Dungeon will use that last page for a new column that goes in the same direction as Williams'.


----------



## DonTadow (Jun 8, 2005)

Jupp said:
			
		

> Too bad he made that decision, especially if its true that the reason he did it was because some *insert correct word here* were constantly bitching about the column. The argument that you could get more adventures into Dungeon without that columns is absolutely laughable   as if one more page of 70+ pages would make an adventure x times cooler and better
> 
> I found his column was worth readin since it sometimes dealt with things not directly linked to D&D or RPGs. His story on getting Nolan to the game table was cool. It was a nice diversion from the adventures and the crunch in Dungeon.
> 
> I hope Dungeon will use that last page for a new column that goes in the same direction as Williams'.



More than likely that one page is going to go to advertising if their in the financial problems they are in.


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## Quasqueton (Jun 8, 2005)

Maybe I should write the column then. So you can read all about relevant D&D.

Dungeons & Dragons [current edition] is the one true game. All previous editions were just attempts to achieve this level of excellence. 

Quasqueton


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## GlassJaw (Jun 8, 2005)

> I know how stressed and pissed off i get when i'm writing good content. When I know my stuff is relevent, and a hack of an editor tells me to change my stuff up because of a couple of readers. I'd just quit too. I'm not going to have my hand be the puppet of people not sophisticated enough to undertand my writing.




I think this is going a bit too far.  First off, I'm not sure I would call Wil's column "good content".  I mean, I certainly wouldn't call it _bad_ but it wasn't anything special IMO.  It was more like his stream of consciousness or a glorified, one-page blog.

Sophisticated?  Come on now.  That's just ridiculous to believe that the Dungeon audience wasn't "sophisticated" enough to "understand" Wi's column.  Now I'm not saying the Dungeon audience is sophisicated at all but it's not like Wil was over everyone's heads.

Let's just keep things in perspective here.


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Jun 8, 2005)

JPL said:
			
		

> I guess I'd rather see Monte Cook, or Robin Laws, or Ken Hite, get one page a month to do whatever they want.
> 
> And personally...I find Wil kind of depressing.  He was on frigging ST:TNG, and he threw it away, and it still seems to eat at him.
> 
> ...




Well, as I mentioned above, I stumbled into a book signing he was doing (I had no idea there was going to be a signing of any kind in that store that day), where he was also reading from his book and discussing his career. He pretty much addressed the stuff that you're talking about, and he seemed like he'd come to terms with all of it. He actually seemed rather upbeat and positive, yet objective. He didn't candy-coat anything, but took responsibility for the mistakes he'd made, and seemed optimistic about his current situation and future. His book - which is made up of a lot of material from his blog - also addresses the issues you mention.


----------



## rowport (Jun 8, 2005)

FWIW, I will join the chorus of "first thing I read every month".  I really enjoy the column.  And, I really could not care less whether he talked about D&D- I just like that he offered a sincere slice of life view from a "gamer" (or, at least, how I would define the term).

But, if the editorial decision was to stay focused on D&D (which is a valid decision, Erik, do not misunderstand me) then I agree that he would be much more limited in content and the writing would suffer for it.  I am not sure if it has so far, but...

Anyway, I do hope that another *column* gets added to replace Will Save, rather than just another page added to an adventure.  I did like the writing, and the human voice.

All that said, I have a gut-check suspicion that just like the vocal negative posters on Paizo's boards are not representative of the entire readership, neither are us touchy-feeling ENWorlders, either.    Seriously, I trust Erik Mona to have his hand on the pulse of what his readers really want.  But, I will miss Will Save.


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## Mystery Man (Jun 8, 2005)

rowport said:
			
		

> Anyway, I do hope that another *column* gets added to replace Will Save, rather than just another page added to an adventure.  I did like the writing, and the human voice.




Doileys, macrame, or oragami as it relates to DnD. Serve 'em right.


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## shaylon (Jun 8, 2005)

I really enjoyed the column, and am sorry to see that a group of people stuck in 1991 pushed him away from it.  So it wasn't always about 3.5 D&D, so what?  It was usually an entertaining and fun read.  Insight into what other gamers are doing is entertaining to me, which is one of the reasons I come here.  I enjoy reading what is going on in many of the posters' games here, and I can get cool minis tips and news that I wouldn't get elsewhere.

Sad to see Wil have to deal with that crap.

-Shay


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## JPL (Jun 8, 2005)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> Well, as I mentioned above, I stumbled into a book signing he was doing (I had no idea there was going to be a signing of any kind in that store that day), where he was also reading from his book and discussing his career. He pretty much addressed the stuff that you're talking about, and he seemed like he'd come to terms with all of it. He actually seemed rather upbeat and positive, yet objective. He didn't candy-coat anything, but took responsibility for the mistakes he'd made, and seemed optimistic about his current situation and future. His book - which is made up of a lot of material from his blog - also addresses the issues you mention.




I really hope you're right.  Maybe I've just hit his blog on bad days.  There are certainly days when I still feel bad about mistakes l made at eighteen.

I've heard it argued that Wil invented the blog.  Nice to have that on your resume.


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## Angel Tarragon (Jun 8, 2005)

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> Good gracious, guys. It is only one page. I hope Erik sticks an ad in that spot to make some more money, and just to cheese you off.
> 
> Quasqueton



I'm definetely with you on that!


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## Mark (Jun 8, 2005)

If we're not careful this thread will become like the procession around an open casket...


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## WizarDru (Jun 8, 2005)

JPL said:
			
		

> I really hope you're right. Maybe I've just hit his blog on bad days. There are certainly days when I still feel bad about mistakes l made at eighteen.
> 
> I've heard it argued that Wil invented the blog.  Nice to have that on your resume.




That's a heck of a stretch, by any imagination, but he certainly was at the forefront.

I will miss Wil Save a great deal. Like many others, it was the first thing I read each month. As the parent of two, a lot of what Wil describes resonates with me. When my 5 year-old son begged me to play Heroscape with him or designs his own dungeon and runs my wife through it: yeah, I know what Wil's talking about.

Thanks for the effort, Wil. Luckily, we can use that space for....another Fast Food restaurant, office building or unidentified ruins map. 

As for Wil, I think you've just hit him on bad days, perhaps.  I highly recommend Just A Geek, wherein he discusses his battle and victory over said phantoms.  It's a great read, regardless of whether you're a Trek fan or not.


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## Vocenoctum (Jun 8, 2005)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> It really is and its a shame they justify themselves.  Some say oh he wquit on his own, but, as a writer, I know how stressed and pissed off i get when i'm writing good content.  When I know my stuff is relevent, and a hack of an editor tells me to change my stuff up because of a couple of readers.  I'd just quit too.  I'm not going to have my hand be the puppet of people not sophisticated enough to undertand my writing.




I think you owe Erik Mona an apology, he's done wonders with the magazines, and he caught a lot of flak at the start for including Wil Save. The fact he asked for it to involve the PURPOSE of the magazine more, is not a "do D&D or get out" type of situation. If Wil can't write something peripherally D&D related once a month, then he's not really in the right place to write the column I think.

I liked a few of the columns, though I felt like some of them were too similar to each other, rather than something new and insightful. I won't miss it when it's gone.

In case no one actually has read them, there are plenty of good quality 1 and 2 page articles in the back of Dungeon right now. In this last issue, the 2 page "camping in a dungeon" article was much more useful and good to read than the Wil Save "Orc & Pie" article to me.


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## DonTadow (Jun 8, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> I think you owe Erik Mona an apology, he's done wonders with the magazines, and he caught a lot of flak at the start for including Wil Save. The fact he asked for it to involve the PURPOSE of the magazine more, is not a "do D&D or get out" type of situation. If Wil can't write something peripherally D&D related once a month, then he's not really in the right place to write the column I think.
> 
> I liked a few of the columns, though I felt like some of them were too similar to each other, rather than something new and insightful. I won't miss it when it's gone.
> 
> In case no one actually has read them, there are plenty of good quality 1 and 2 page articles in the back of Dungeon right now. In this last issue, the 2 page "camping in a dungeon" article was much more useful and good to read than the Wil Save "Orc & Pie" article to me.



When I said hack of an editor I was talking about in my own instance, no dissing of Mona.  Sorr y if ti was interpreted like that way.  I still think that an editor should always stand behind his writers and I felt that, from Wills blog, he had probably been hamming on him about it fora  couple of months.  

Again difference of opinion.  Alot of the stuff in those articles you can get free online.


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## devilbat (Jun 8, 2005)

I'm just another voice who is dissapointed that Will Save is leaving Dungeon.  It was always the first thing I read when I received a new issue.  

I agree that it may be better suited to Dragon, but I didn't really care.  There is always some content in each issue that I don't bother to read, so the fact that there was a consistent article each month, that I enjoyed, made me glad.

I also agree that it would have been nice to read Wils opinion on game mechanics, new releases, concepts, etc, but in the end his article was charming, and generally something non geeks, or those not obsessed with all things Trek, could enjoy.


----------



## Arnwyn (Jun 8, 2005)

I'm neutral about Will Save no longer appearing in Dungeon. It was the first thing I read each month, but only because it was a quick and easy read. Didn't seem to have much to do about D&D, though...

In any case, the decision has absolutely no affect on the adventures, maps, ideas, nor my game in any way, shape, or form (which is why I subscribe to Dungeon Magazine in the first place).


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 8, 2005)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> Just a guess, but it may be some people objected because they don't like anything in Dragon/Dungeon not related to (official) D&D.  This seems to be a common trend.




I would have to agree and it's sad cause like alot of the people in this thread it was the first thing I read but I'll still be renewing my subscription so I guess I’m pretty neutral after all.


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## JoeBlank (Jun 8, 2005)

My vote would have been for the column to stay, although it probably fits better in Dragon. As other parents have mentioned, the column kind of hits home when he talks about his stepson and passing on traditions. 

I like Wil's writing, and it was nice to get a little dose of it in the magazine. His blog frequently covers issues that do not interest me, so I don't read it regularly, but with Wil Save I at least knew he would be writing on gaming. It was also nice to have a quick, one-page read, and was often the first think I read in full, while thumbing through the magazine.

As others have mentioned, it sounds like he was being asked to focus on D&D, which he no longer gets to play regularly, so I can understand why this was becoming un-fun for him.


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## Alan Shutko (Jun 8, 2005)

Mystery Man said:
			
		

> Doileys, macrame, or oragami as it relates to DnD. Serve 'em right.




I would buy a book on making D&D minis with origami in a heartbeat.  It would ROCK to have a page at the end of each Dungeon with common foes like origami skeletons, kobolds, orcs, etc.

If they won't do it, someone else should.


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## Erik Mona (Jun 8, 2005)

Menexenus said:
			
		

> However, I have to agree with Wil himself that the quality of his articles was suffering because of the restrictions being placed on it by his editors.




Wil quit the column because of the whiners on the "Failed Wil Save" thread on the Paizo boards. I didn't mind him talking about games like GURPS so much, but I didn't care for the articles about poker (one of which never saw print).

For the record, I enjoyed Wil Save, and thought it put a human face on the magazine. It was a nice way to close out the issue. Wil is an excellent writer, and I appreciated the chance to work with him in the magazine.

On the other hand, in the age of the Internet, public writing (and editing) can be a tough business. Being able to put up with negative comments from a vocal minority of readers is a critical skill to stay in the game, and with the other restrictions on Wil's life and personal time (he hadn't actually played D&D for months) he decided that the Dungeon column (and a lot of other things, judging by today's blog post) wasn't worth the effort.

I tried to get Wil to reconsider, but I think the combination of the negative feedback and a recent bout of Mono and a general feeling that he is over-committed (believe me, I understand that!) teamed up to give Wil Save the knock-out punch.

The only reason I'm posting this is to quash the idea that it was "editorial interference" that played a major role in Wil's decision to leave the column. I had a great time working with Wil, and all of the feedback I've received is that he had a great time working with me.

Had it been up to me, the column would still be going on. But it wasn't up to me, so here we are.

--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dragon & Dungeon


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## Jdvn1 (Jun 8, 2005)

As long as Wil knows some people (and a lot of EN Worlders, apparently) appreciated him and his article, I'm okay with his decision to leave.  I don't like it, but I won't raise a fuss about it.

Thanks for the heads-up, Erik.


----------



## eabha (Jun 8, 2005)

Alan Shutko said:
			
		

> I would buy a book on making D&D minis with origami in a heartbeat.  It would ROCK to have a page at the end of each Dungeon with common foes like origami skeletons, kobolds, orcs, etc.
> 
> If they won't do it, someone else should.



Joseph Wu's website has some great ones. Sadly, no instuctions.  

EDIT: Er...didn't mean to be off-topic. And no, I don't think I'd prefer origami to Wil Save, which was terrific.


----------



## jcfiala (Jun 8, 2005)

I quite liked 'Will Save', and I'll miss it in future issues.  But I'm sure I'll still get to hear some more about Will's gaming in his blog and elsewhere.


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## GlassJaw (Jun 8, 2005)

> Wil quit the column because of the whiners on the "Failed Wil Save" thread on the Paizo boards.




Well that is certainly unfortunate.  He deserved a better fate than that.

Thanks for the info Erik.


----------



## Erik Mona (Jun 8, 2005)

To be fair, Wil quit the column because he was overcommitted in his life in general, and the negative posts on the Paizo thread were the straw that broke the camel's back.

--Erik


----------



## Jdvn1 (Jun 8, 2005)

Who says we want to be fair?  We just want Wil Save back.


----------



## DonTadow (Jun 8, 2005)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> Wil quit the column because of the whiners on the "Failed Wil Save" thread on the Paizo boards. I didn't mind him talking about games like GURPS so much, but I didn't care for the articles about poker (one of which never saw print).
> 
> For the record, I enjoyed Wil Save, and thought it put a human face on the magazine. It was a nice way to close out the issue. Wil is an excellent writer, and I appreciated the chance to work with him in the magazine.
> 
> ...




Hi Erik, 

I want to personally apologize for my last comment.  I was talkinga bout editors (my editors) in general, not at you I think you do a fine job crafting both the magazines and I thank you for giving a great series of articles like that a chance.  As a writer, I'm quick to point the finger at editors. The adventures in the magazine are good but a magazine with just adventures is bland too me which is why the first thing's I always read was Wills and then Monte's article (his second becuse I always have to take notes with Monte's stuff).   I hope that the next column is equally as good.  

I was just really disheartened at the Paizo board.  I went over there expecting Enworld 2 and the harsh comments reak of something that is rarely regulated.


----------



## Brain (Jun 8, 2005)

As predicted


----------



## NewLifeForm (Jun 8, 2005)

*Well that about wraps it up for Dungeon*

Wil Wheaton's column, a well written and often sensative approach to the feelings and thoughts of older gamers, was about the only redeemable feature of Dungeon magazine. I was looking for one more reason to stop wasting that extra 7-8 bucks a month and now I have it.

Now if I could only stop buying Dragon...

NewLifeForm


----------



## Mystery Man (Jun 8, 2005)

Brain said:
			
		

> As predicted





And now you know why I asked!


----------



## Mouseferatu (Jun 8, 2005)

While my biggest disappointment is the loss of the column...

My biggest _fear_ is that once the shrieking banshee minority who were making the complaints and rude comments on the Paizo boards realizes that they've accomplished something, they'll like the taste of power and redouble their efforts.


----------



## Henry (Jun 8, 2005)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> The only reason I'm posting this is to quash the idea that it was "editorial interference" that played a major role in Wil's decision to leave the column. I had a great time working with Wil, and all of the feedback I've received is that he had a great time working with me.




Erik, I'm glad you did, but I don't think you even had to, because Wil made it very clear in his column that you were a great person to work with. It seemed that most of Wil's cutbacks are about things that give TOO much of his personal life, and that's perfectly OK. Given some of my relatives' experiences with blogs in the past three years, one can blog a little TOO much about their personal lives, enough to get them in trouble with family and friends, even. The general change from personal journals/diaries detailing innermost feelings to public weblogs is a phenomenon I still can't understand.


----------



## The Shaman (Jun 8, 2005)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> While my biggest disappointment is the loss of the column...
> 
> My biggest _fear_ is that once the shrieking banshee minority who were making the complaints and rude comments on the Paizo boards realizes that they've accomplished something, they'll like the taste of power and redouble their efforts.



You mean like they did with _Polyhedron_, which (with all due respect to Mr. Wheaton) contributed a whole lot more to gaming than "Wil Save"?

Yes, I'm bitter. No, I won't get over it, so don't ask.


----------



## Mouseferatu (Jun 8, 2005)

The Shaman said:
			
		

> You mean like they did with _Polyhedron_, which (with all due respect to Mr. Wheaton) contributed a whole lot more to gaming than "Wil Save"?
> 
> Yes, I'm bitter. No, I won't get over it, so don't ask.




Only problem with that anology is that, as I understand it, the Polyhedron issue wasn't a _loud_ minority. If it was, I doubt Erik would ever have dropped it. It was actually a financial/marketing issue.

When sales actually drop markedly over something, and pick back up when that something is gone, it can't really be called a "screaming minority" anymore, can it?

(For the record, while I'm happier without Poly, I didn't hate it. I wasn't really involved in those discussions except when a specific question was asked and responses sought.)


----------



## DonTadow (Jun 8, 2005)

I consider Dungeon magazine more than just an adventure guide but a DM centered magazine.  I'd like to see something similiar to Wil's column or something DM related that is not something they already have in the book.


----------



## Mouseferatu (Jun 8, 2005)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> I consider Dungeon magazine more than just an adventure guide but a DM centered magazine.  I'd like to see something similiar to Wil's column or something DM related that is not something they already have in the book.




I would, as well.

In fact, the more I think of it, the more I like the "rotating" column idea put forth earlier in this thread. I think if Paizo could get a good and random mix of...

1) Celebrities who are gamers
2) Big names in the RPG industry
3) Other folks in the RPG industry*

...each of whom would write one or two columsn and move on, it would be a really great cross-section of views on the hobby.

*(I am _not_ just suggesting we include option 3 because I want to be part of it, though I'd be lying if I said that wasn't an aspect of my motivation. The truth is, I like and respect the viewpoints of a lot of my contemporaries as much as--or in some cases even more than--the views of the classic "big names." I'd like to see the up-and-comers have a voice in this, alongside and with equal weight to the big guys.)


----------



## Riley (Jun 8, 2005)

I thought a column in Dungeon by Wil Wheaton was a terrible idea, but it quickly became the first thing I read each month.  He will certainly be missed.


----------



## Henry (Jun 8, 2005)

The Shaman said:
			
		

> You mean like they did with _Polyhedron_, which (with all due respect to Mr. Wheaton) contributed a whole lot more to gaming than "Wil Save"?
> 
> Yes, I'm bitter. No, I won't get over it, so don't ask.





Except that relatively few of its readers read Poly/Dungeon, myself included. My purchase of Dungeon has noticably (to me) picked back up since that design change.

And I wouldn't expect you to get over it - it was a handy magazine for those who used it.


----------



## Erik Mona (Jun 8, 2005)

The Shaman said:
			
		

> You mean like they did with _Polyhedron_, which (with all due respect to Mr. Wheaton) contributed a whole lot more to gaming than "Wil Save"?




With great respect to the people who still mourn Polyhedron (hey, I put it together!), I have to say that the vocal dislike on behalf of some customers was merely one element that ensured its demise. The sales numbers were the main reason we made the change. 

While Dungeon with Polyhedron brought a bunch of new people to the magazine, it also drove off enough people that, at the end of the day, it was pretty much a wash. And when your circulation trendline is heading down, down, down, a "wash" doesn't quite do it.

The numbers on Dungeon have been quite positive for more than year now, no doubt in part because Wil Save brought some people to the magazine. What impact the loss of the column will have on sales remains to be seen, but I strongly believe we're releasing very high-quality material useful in a wide variety of games, so I have every reason to believe that Dungeon will continue to improve its business fortunes in the months ahead.

Paizo as a company is very, very pleased with the sales trends of Dungeon magazine.

--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dragon & Dungeon


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## DonTadow (Jun 8, 2005)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> I would, as well.
> 
> In fact, the more I think of it, the more I like the "rotating" column idea put forth earlier in this thread. I think if Paizo could get a good and random mix of...
> 
> ...




Honestly, i woudln't mind seeing some third party publishers opinions on things.  Most of my stuff is third party.  I like this rotating idea as well.  Perhaps the first column could be Vin Diesel lol... no i'm not kidding.


----------



## takasi (Jun 8, 2005)

Am I the only one who didn't like the articles?  It was like subscribing to a PC gaming magazine and opening up the back pages to read about some guy's random experiences while playing his gameboy.  I won't miss them at all.


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## The Shaman (Jun 8, 2005)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> When sales actually drop markedly over something, and pick back up when that something is gone, it can't really be called a "screaming minority" anymore, can it?



I freely admit this is a subject in which rationality goes out the window for me, I'm afraid...  

The people who stopped buying _Dungeon_ because of _Poly_ exerted a different sort of pressure on the publisher, one which hit the bottom line instead of the message boards. But it's the same kind of response, one in which ruining someone else's fun is okay if it means getting one's way. Don't like the mini-games? Boycott the magazine! Don't like the column? Bad-mouth the writer! It's small-minded, and it's ugly.

I stopped buying _Dungeon_ after _Poly_ was dropped, as it no longer offered useful content for me. The same can't be said of the people who complained about _Poly_'s inclusion - they still had useful content in every issue that included _Poly_, but that still wasn't good enough. And please correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've read _Dungeon_'s circulation didn't jump by 51% after _Poly_ disappeared - it was a minority of purchasers as well, and Paizo wasn't willing or able to ride it out and re-position itself in the market. (Yes, responsibility to shareholders and all that...but how does anything innovative grow if the bottom line is the only measure of success?)

Now a one-page column is dropped because the writer decides it's not worth the grief to subject himself to childish taunts anymore (the "straw that broke the back," as it was described earlier). Like I said, it's ugly, and it's also sad.

And I wouldn't have minded hearing what Wil had to say about poker. It's a game I play too.


----------



## Psychic Warrior (Jun 8, 2005)

takasi said:
			
		

> Am I the only one who didn't like the articles?  It was like subscribing to a PC gaming magazine and opening up the back pages to read about some guy's random experiences while playing his gameboy.  I won't miss them at all.




Nope - you weren't alone.  I have no feelings one way or another towards Wil Wheaton the person but I did not find his articles interesting and, after the first 1/2 dozen, never read them.  I do hope that losing his article doesn't negatively affect Dungeon sale, however.  The quality has really never been higher.


----------



## Henry (Jun 8, 2005)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> The numbers on Dungeon have been quite positive for more than year now...
> 
> Paizo as a company is very, very pleased with the sales trends of Dungeon magazine.




Erik,

If it's not being too forward, how are the sales trends on the other titles, generally? Dragon/ Undefeated? (Any others I'm not remembering?)


----------



## Henry (Jun 8, 2005)

The Shaman said:
			
		

> I stopped buying _Dungeon_ after _Poly_ was dropped, as it no longer offered useful content for me. The same can't be said of the people who complained about _Poly_'s inclusion - they still had useful content in every issue that included _Poly_, but that still wasn't good enough.




Are you _absolutely certain_ of this? I say this because I had reduced my purchases of Dungeon during the Polyedron years, because the adventures just did not seem of equivalent caliber to what they are since the Redesign in September. After Poly was dropped, they still did not appeal to me as much, but with the more recent changes, I found stuff I could more easily adapt and use, or was just plain entertaining reading. Poly wasn't bad, but there was even less content in there for me than in Dungeon, so I had no reason to read it. It's why I stopped picking it up.


----------



## atom crash (Jun 8, 2005)

> Perhaps the first column could be Vin Diesel lol... no i'm not kidding.




Hey, buddy, don't make me come over there.  

(see post #17 in this thread)


----------



## The Shaman (Jun 8, 2005)

Henry said:
			
		

> Are you _absolutely certain_ of this? I say this because I had reduced my purchases of Dungeon during the Polyedron years, because the adventures just did not seem of equivalent caliber to what they are since the Redesign in September. After Poly was dropped, they still did not appeal to me as much, but with the more recent changes, I found stuff I could more easily adapt and use, or was just plain entertaining reading. Poly wasn't bad, but there was even less content in there for me than in Dungeon, so I had no reason to read it. It's why I stopped picking it up.



That's a very interesting statement, *Henry* - since I was content to buy the magazine for _Poly_ I didn't pay much attention to the quality or lack thereof in _Dungeon_.

That makes me wonder: did sales really slip because of _Poly_, or were _Dungeon_ quality issues equally (or more) culpable? You suggest that the quality didn't improve immediately after _Poly_ tanked - could the quality of _Dungeon_ been improved without sacrificing _Poly_?

This is a whole new dimension that I hadn't even considered. I wonder if *Erik Mona* can tell us if quality issues were a factor or not in sales - that seems like the kind of thing focus groups and surveys could answer.


----------



## Mercule (Jun 8, 2005)

I started off thinking, "Why should I care?"  His columns really did grow on me, though.


----------



## takasi (Jun 8, 2005)

I can't believe that Dungeon would have picked up new subscribers based solely on an article by Wil Wheaton.  I can see them picking it up for the increase in quality content.  I know several MMO players who picked up the Eberron content for D&D Online.  I could also see the removal of Poly as an influence.  The launch of 3.5 might have had an influence.  I would believe it if Erik said any one of these things increased sales.  Ed Greenwood, Gary Gygax, Monte Cook, or Keith Baker maybe, but Wil Wheaton?

Anyone here decide to buy because of Wil Save?  That would be an interesting perspective.


----------



## DonTadow (Jun 8, 2005)

I honestly can say i decided to subscribe to dungeon because of wiil's column.  NOt because the adventures wernt great but they were random for me.  I liked the quick content.  MOnte's articles and Will's articles.  I thought ot myself even if i don't use the adventures this subscription will still provide at least twp orettty good articles a month which i'd glady pay 8 bucks for.  

Until i subscribed, i would just buy magazines like that depenidng on if they had an adventure i liked or not.  

The columns provided a consistency to hte magazine.  I knew what i'd get from them every month and i knew i'd enjoy them.  I cna't say that about the adventures.  NOt that they arnt good but that they 9 times out of 10 are something i can't use or can only use for no more than descriptions


----------



## Steel_Wind (Jun 8, 2005)

The Shaman said:
			
		

> That makes me wonder: did sales really slip because of _Poly_, or were _Dungeon_ quality issues equally (or more) culpable? You suggest that the quality didn't improve immediately after _Poly_ tanked - could the quality of _Dungeon_ been improved without sacrificing _Poly_?




The last interview with Erik on Mortality Radio late last fall discusses the likes, dislikes, turn-ons and turn-offs of Dungeon's readers (Mortality Radio - remember that?).

Erik confirmed that _Dungeon_ and _Dragon's _ readership care about the current version of D&D.  Even Star Wars D20 is unacceptable to them. The numbers went down - the complaints went up - way up - and there was no misinterpreting that data according to Erik.  And no - he did not give hard numbers - neither WotC nor Paizo ever do.

The interview is still available for download off of Mortality.net.  

Speaking of which - seeing as the hiatus from Mortality Radio has gone on for long enough that a reasonable person would conclude the word "hiatus" ought to be changed to "ceased altogether" I REALLY wish someone else would take up the torch and give gaming radio a try.


----------



## Samothdm (Jun 8, 2005)

> Anyone here decide to buy because of Wil Save? That would be an interesting perspective.




I guess I'm your guy.  I had never bought an issue of _Dungeon_ until Wil told me that he was writing the column in the back.  I sent off for a subscription immediately, but then again, he's a friend so I wanted to support him.  I figured giving my dollars to _Dungeon_ with the commencement of his column would be a way of saying, "Good job!".  

Wil is definitely a gamer (despite what some folks seem to think).  I know because my night elf bard/hexblade had to save his tiefling soulknife's sorry butt when he got knocked unconscious by an animated tapestry.  We were on a pretty regular every-other-week schedule through last fall, but then the game kind of went on hiatus during the holidays and it was slow getting started up again.  

That said, Wil has more than 20 years worth of gaming stories to share with people, so I honestly think the fact that he wasn't playing regularly should have been a detriment.  He is a voracious reader of the hobby, and knew a ton about 3.0 before it even came out officially.  On the way back from a friend's bachelor party in Vegas, he surprised me with an in-depth discussion of GURPS and how much he loved SJG's "Cardboard Heroes".  He is _really_ into gaming.  

Of course, he (like all of us) is a three-dimensional person.  He is not _just_ a gamer.  He's a husband, step-father, actor, writer, reporter, friend... Given the pressures on my own time these days, I find my reading has become very limited.  Having a column in _Dungeon_ by a gamer about _life_ was a refreshing and welcome change.  

I doubt I'll renew my subscription to _Dungeon_.  I think it's a great magazine, but I honestly don't really need all those adventures. I play in 2-3 games but only DM one, and we only get together about twice a month.  I haven't even used a _Dungeon_ adventure in-game yet.  My group has been slogging it through the Banewarrens for more than a year.  

If I could just get the articles in the back, without the adventures, I'd reconsider.  But, given than I don't really use 90% of the magazine, the space they take up alone is reason enough not to renew.  

FYI, for those that care, I'll make sure to tell Wil about all the nice things you guys/gals said about him.


----------



## Kid Charlemagne (Jun 8, 2005)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Speaking of which - seeing as the hiatus from Mortality Radio has gone on for long enough that a reasonable person would conclude the word "hiatus" ought to be changed to "ceased altogether" I REALLY wish someone else would take up the torch and give gaming radio a try.




You know, I've been considering the concept of getting into podcasting, and this just might be a way to do it...


----------



## mac1504 (Jun 8, 2005)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> Hi Erik,
> 
> I want to personally apologize for my last comment.  I was talking*a bout* editors (my editors) in general, not at you I think you do a fine job crafting both the magazines and I thank you for giving a great series of articles like that a chance.  As a writer, I'm quick to point the finger at editors. The adventures in the magazine are good but a magazine with just adventures is bland *too* me which is why the first *thing's* I always read was *Wills* and then Monte's article (his second *becuse* I always have to take notes with Monte's stuff).   I hope that the next column is equally as good.
> 
> I was just really disheartened at the Paizo board.  I went over there expecting Enworld 2 and the harsh comments *reak* of something that is rarely regulated.




Why would you point fingers at editors?


----------



## The Shaman (Jun 8, 2005)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Erik confirmed that _Dungeon_ and _Dragon's _ readership care about the current version of D&D.  Even Star Wars D20 is unacceptable to them. The numbers went down - the complaints went up - way up - and there was no misinterpreting that data according to Erik.



I can understand that the sales figures were painting a picture - but were they interpreting the picture correctly? Yes, fans are vocal in their dislike of anything not D&D (curse their unimaginative hides!), but was the quality of the _Dungeon_ product responsible for the downturn? It's a question that market research would've been able to answer, but not one that would necessarily come from looking at sales figures...







			
				Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> And no - he did not give hard numbers - neither WotC nor Paizo ever do.



Annoying, but not surprising.  

Okay, that's my last swipe at the dead horse this trip.


----------



## Lassiviren (Jun 8, 2005)

I personally am pretty neutral about the whole thing, I won't miss it, but I certainly thought Wil was a more than adequate writer but was really reaching for material at times.

I certainly don't know Wil but I have the feeling he is a very sensitive person and probably took the negative feedback very personally.  Kinda goes along with the whole Wesley thing I guess.

I will say one thing about Wil Save, before I read the column I wouldn't have thought twice about one of Wil's books now I would definitely give it a glance.  And as far as games go you can do a lot worse than Texas Hold-em people!


----------



## Vocenoctum (Jun 8, 2005)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> When I said hack of an editor I was talking about in my own instance, no dissing of Mona.  Sorr y if ti was interpreted like that way.  I still think that an editor should always stand behind his writers and I felt that, from Wills blog, he had probably been hamming on him about it fora  couple of months.



Righteo, I hope you can see where I'd read into it. I don't think an editor should stand behind a writer forever, but in general they should. 


> Again difference of opinion.  Alot of the stuff in those articles you can get free online.



True enough, but... I mean, you can get ALL of Wil's columns online, nay?


----------



## LeapingShark (Jun 8, 2005)

I am surprised by the number of people who say Wil Save is usually the only thing they read in Dungeon.  I've decided that I am going to email a new column to you each month, taken from Wil's blog, for the low low price of $2 a month.  You're getting a much better deal now!  And I'll be rich!  



			
				Jupp said:
			
		

> The argument that you could get more adventures into Dungeon without that columns is absolutely laughable   as if one more page of 70+ pages would make an adventure x times cooler and better



Just ask some of the adventure authors, I'm sure they can fill you in on many cool aspects of their work that was left to die on the editing room floor. E.g. More room details for Vhalantru's Shackled City mansion.  I think for most readers they never see what they could have had, so they don't realize the quality of material that gets cut from everything.  A few words can go a long way towards enhancing the flavor of an adventure, or an entire campaign, for example Gary's intro to T1 Village of Hommlet.


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## Odhanan (Jun 8, 2005)

I'm sorry to hear Wil won't write anymore for Dungeon. I loved every single of his columns. They had style and were presenting a real approach to what gaming his (particularly when he was talking of bonding with his step son). 

The hate mail sucks. People really should know better. *sigh*


----------



## Ketjak (Jun 8, 2005)

NewLifeForm said:
			
		

> Wil Wheaton's column, a well written and often sensative approach to the feelings and thoughts of older gamers, was about the only redeemable feature of Dungeon magazine. I was looking for one more reason to stop wasting that extra 7-8 bucks a month and now I have it.
> 
> Now if I could only stop buying Dragon...
> 
> NewLifeForm




Why a person who buys every month doesn't _subscribe_ for half-price or less issues still completely baffles me. For the price of _five_ issues at the newsstand you can purchase an _entire year's_ subscription. Your characters buy CLW potions instead of wands, don't they? 

And Dragon's easy to stop buying.  I picked up two recently (FLGS having a sale) and am enjoying the Eberron content, but sheesh, the rest of it reads like a ultra-geeky version of a cheesy tech mag. If that's what sells, then good for Paizo... but I can't stomach it.

_edit:_ I loved Wil Save, read it first, thought the game-related reality blast was refreshing. Perhaps once diaglo and a few others breed (stifles shudder <grin>), they'll appreciate the column more.  His column actually got me to finally make time to play with my step-spawn.  My direct spawn will, too - in about 6 years. 

- Ket


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## ColonelHardisson (Jun 8, 2005)

Ketjak said:
			
		

> Why a person who buys every month doesn't _subscribe_ for half-price or less issues still completely baffles me. For the price of _five_ issues at the newsstand you can purchase an _entire year's_ subscription. Your characters buy CLW potions instead of wands, don't they?




Because it's often easier to scrape up the money for a single issue than it is to have enough ready cash to send in for a subscription.


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## DonTadow (Jun 8, 2005)

mac1504 said:
			
		

> Why would you point fingers at editors?



Hehehe I've had some bad editors who have hacked my stuff up, misquoted my sources, burned my leads and destroyed my copy, so my first instance is to defend the writer and blame the editor.  IN this choice i see it was neither's fault.  Mona pretty much defended Will to the end but I think the idiotic guys on the Paizo board just was too much.  I commented on there and someone tried ot defend the lude comments against will.. sickening.   There are certain of us gamers that I hate, the ones i dont play with nor invite to my games.  Those gamers that could be the downfall of the game.


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## Erik Mona (Jun 9, 2005)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> Those gamers that could be the downfall of the game.




In fact, I suspect those gamers are the backbone of the hobby.

--Erik Mona


----------



## Samothdm (Jun 9, 2005)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> In fact, I suspect those gamers are the backbone of the hobby.
> 
> --Erik Mona




Maybe I'm misinterpreting your quote, but I hope you're not saying that the backbone of the hobby is made up of the rude excessive fanboy types who basically were one of the catalysts for Wil to give up the column.  I'd hate to think that the majority of the hobby was made up of those types of people.


----------



## Simplicity (Jun 9, 2005)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> In fact, I suspect those gamers are the backbone of the hobby.




Oh, I hope that the majority of D&D players aren't complete pricks.

Sure, we've got a lot of geeks.  Sure, geeks tend to have social... ahem... issues that are only aggravated by the Internet.  But do think it's a vocal minority and not a vocal majority that are like that.


----------



## DonTadow (Jun 9, 2005)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> In fact, I suspect those gamers are the backbone of the hobby.
> 
> --Erik Mona



I don't know.  I don't think the immature remarks properly represent the true backbone of the hobby, which are guys like Will.  Guys who have grown up, had families and still love the game.  I don't see those guys on there.  I see guys whom refuse to believe that a gaming magazine can have a page of something lighter than stats.  Just one page.  As a soon to be father, I really digged the family gaming aspect of Will's comments and I think you got to realize the game has grown beyond dungeoncrawls and political intrigue to really see that value.  I've read those nasty remarks and I don't get that from them.  They may be steady subscribers but they are the reason the readership base may not be increasing as exponentially as the hobby is.  Recently in the Dungeon letters, I read one remark about women readership not being raised, and I couldn't help but think that it would take different types of articles like Will's to make that happen.  It doesn't have to be life stories, but a couple pages focused on the lifestyle would be interesting.  Now that these guys have had their way it is another point against the progress of the game.


----------



## Anson Caralya (Jun 9, 2005)

The latest bout of complaints on the Paizo boards was triggered by Wil's admission in his most recent column that he couldn't find the time to play.  That's something I can identify with, which meant to me that Wil had extended his streak of gamer-topical insight.  I'm sorry to see the loss of a nice dimension to the magazine.


----------



## LeapingShark (Jun 9, 2005)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> I  really digged the family gaming aspect of Will's comments and I think you got to realize the game has grown beyond dungeoncrawls and political intrigue to really see that value.



 I don't think a great many people would disagree with that, but I think the bigger issue for some people, was more about location and relevance.

Back in the old days before Dungeon existed, Dragon featured an occasional adventure in the center of the magazine.  Those adventures were such a popular feature, that a spin-off magazine was formed, solely for the purpose of satiating the demand.  I subscribed to Dungeon before a single issue was published, because I too was one of those who loved those center-page adventures in Dragon and wanted more. Dungeon has survived for many years on it's fantastic adventures.

So the point is, if WOTC filled the back pages of each Monster Manual with Wil Save articles about the family aspect of gaming, ya I agree it would still be an interesting article and I would enjoy reading it, because it's true the life of a gamer is so much more than dungeoncrawls and political intrigue.  But I just think another location would be more appropriate for such thing, a better place than the back of the Monster Manual, or the back of an anthology of adventures. Especially when Dragon magazine exists, which it's always been the place for EXACTLY that.  

I am simply amazed when people say they only subscribe to the monthly adventure anthology because of Wil Save articles.  Would people say they would only buy a Monster Manual if it had Wil Save articles?  They are fun to read, but to me it's the wrong location.


----------



## Erik Mona (Jun 9, 2005)

Let me be clear.

I don't think that ornery gamers are the bulk of gamers, by any stretch of the imagination. As you said, I think most gamers are "average" folks with "average" lives, to whom D&D is just a diversion.

However, I think that ornery gamers make up a significant chunk of the "active" base of roleplayers, the ones who subscribe to magazines, post online, etc.

Again, these folks don't represent a majority of this "active" base, but there are enough of them that they help to keep the hobby alive, and cannot be jettisoned simply because they have inconvenient opinions. Without them, I'm not certain that the industry would be a success, or even viable.

Thus, I suspect they may form the "backbone" of support for the hobby.

But that's just a suspicion, and I'm not married to it.

--Erik


----------



## Vocenoctum (Jun 9, 2005)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> Let me be clear.
> 
> I don't think that ornery gamers are the bulk of gamers, by any stretch of the imagination. As you said, I think most gamers are "average" folks with "average" lives, to whom D&D is just a diversion.
> 
> ...




A lot of the obsessive fan's are probably also completionist's that want to buy ever product for their favorite game lines, so I can see where the opinion comes from.

No way to tell though, since I doubt they'd check the "are you insane" box on any survey.


----------



## The Shaman (Jun 9, 2005)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> However, I think that ornery gamers make up a significant chunk of the "active" base of roleplayers, the ones who subscribe to magazines, post online, etc.
> 
> Again, these folks don't represent a majority of this "active" base, but there are enough of them that they help to keep the hobby alive, and cannot be jettisoned simply because they have inconvenient opinions. Without them, I'm not certain that the industry would be a success, or even viable.



So the reason that we get the products we do and the support we do is based on the spending and reading habits of the most socially maladjusted segment of our hobby community.

This explains so much.

 :\


----------



## Staffan (Jun 9, 2005)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> Because it's often easier to scrape up the money for a single issue than it is to have enough ready cash to send in for a subscription.



Also known as the Vimes Theory of Boots.
A poor man spends 10 Ankh-Morpork Dollars on a pair of shoddy boots. They last him a year, then he has to buy new boots.
A rich man spends 50 Ankh-Morpork Dollars on a pair of really good boots. They last a decade or two.


----------



## rowport (Jun 9, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> No way to tell though, since I doubt they'd check the "are you insane" box on any survey.




Well, they might, but not because he is wrong in this opinion!    

(JK, Erik.)


----------



## Mark (Jun 9, 2005)

Staffan said:
			
		

> Also known as the Vimes Theory of Boots.
> A poor man spends 10 Ankh-Morpork Dollars on a pair of shoddy boots. They last him a year, then he has to buy new boots.
> A rich man spends 50 Ankh-Morpork Dollars on a pair of really good boots. They last a decade or two.





Good stuff, that Pratchett. 

Wish we could get Erik to comment on this (or did I miss it?)



			
				Mark said:
			
		

> I like the idea of high profile celebrities writing a column in the magazine but I think it would be better if it were a different celebrity each issue.  There must a many of them that game now or remember their gaming days with enough fondness to have a good story or two in them.


----------



## Simplicity (Jun 9, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> A lot of the obsessive fan's are probably also completionist's that want to buy ever product for their favorite game lines, so I can see where the opinion comes from.
> 
> No way to tell though, since I doubt they'd check the "are you insane" box on any survey.




Hey, I wouldn't mind every product from my favorite game lines...  Does that make me insane?  Does it?  DOES IT?!?!?!!?!


----------



## JediSoth (Jun 9, 2005)

Just thought I'd throw in my two cents...

I started buying Dungeon regularly with the new format change. I had bought issues periodically over the years (when it looked like there was an interesting adventure in them) and have been getting Dragon since issue 124, but I'd never subscribed to Dungeon. Wil Save was never first on my read list (I tend to go through all magazines front to back, regardless of content), but I did always read it. Gaming has some stigmas attached to it, and it's always nice when someone in the public eye admits to being a gamer. I'm sorry to see the column go. I was always one of the people who didn't really care for the character of Wesley Crusher, but as I got to "know" Wil Wheaton through his other work, I grew to respect that man. 

I like what Erik has done with Dungeon. I'll admit, I've never used an adventure from Dungeon, but it's not for lack of quality. It's just never worked out for my D&D games that way. I'm sure he'll find something worthwhile to put in that space; if nothing else, there are a lot of us writers out there looking for publication. 

JediSoth


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## ColonelHardisson (Jun 9, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> A lot of the obsessive fan's are probably also completionist's that want to buy ever product for their favorite game lines, so I can see where the opinion comes from.




Plus, those who continually rail about how this or that game company puts out material that gamers "have" to buy are also this kind of fan. You know, the ones who complain about all the stuff TSR or WotC put out/puts out which this kind of fan feels "has" to be used in their game. It sorta seems like shifting the blame for one's OCD onto someone else.


----------



## DaveMage (Jun 9, 2005)

I spent a good bit of time going through that Paizo thread today.

How appalling.

If those are the people that form the backbone of the D&D industry than I'm embarrassed to be a gamer.

I sure hope you are wrong about that, Erik.


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Jun 9, 2005)

Staffan said:
			
		

> Also known as the Vimes Theory of Boots.
> A poor man spends 10 Ankh-Morpork Dollars on a pair of shoddy boots. They last him a year, then he has to buy new boots.
> A rich man spends 50 Ankh-Morpork Dollars on a pair of really good boots. They last a decade or two.




I don't know about that, but what I do know is that a magazine isn't really a necessity like boots. Some may want to check out the magazine on the stands before buying it, and have the freedom to not buy if they want to. It could well be that some don't really expect to buy Dungeon every month, but are won over after a look at it on the stands. I know I don't buy every issue of Dungeon, so getting a subscription isn't really all that attractive to me.


----------



## Talath (Jun 9, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> A lot of the obsessive fan's are probably also completionist's that want to buy ever product for their favorite game lines, so I can see where the opinion comes from.
> 
> No way to tell though, since I doubt they'd check the "are you insane" box on any survey.




I am a completionist, and by all means am not obsessive. In fact, I used to have a friend who would get mad because I didn't allow certain books and stuff, even though I owned all the WotC books at the time. I don't believe everything should be allowed, and he did.

But, cest la vie.

EDIT: I just wanted to reply to this thread, since I axed several of my own comments before I put this one forth. They all involved disappointment and disgust. Better to be positive.

Fluffy kitties!


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## DonTadow (Jun 9, 2005)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> Let me be clear.
> 
> I don't think that ornery gamers are the bulk of gamers, by any stretch of the imagination. As you said, I think most gamers are "average" folks with "average" lives, to whom D&D is just a diversion.
> 
> ...




I'd take a different opinion on this despite the fact that I completely agree with the logic.  I   think these ornery stubborn gamers are the reason that some areas of the game has remained stagnent.  YOu must admit, and I remember reading the editorials, that it was these gamers whom had the biggest grouch when it came to the revisions in Dungeon and Dragon magazine.  Both magazines reach out to a broader audience now.  I should know I was one of them.  I had seen Dragon magazine the previous year that I subscribed and it was so packed and written for the die hardest that I shied away.  But as you said, the majority of gamers are the ordinary ones.  When I picked it up last year, I was awed and surprised by the ease of presentation and the variety of material.  By ignoring the diehardest  minority you produced a product that picked up a broader appeal.  IN the end even most of the diehardest admitted the changes were good.  

 When we do headlines in the paper, we are not catering to the die hard newspaper reader.  Those guys will pick up the paper every morning regarduless. They'll launch complaints about content and presentation, but in the end they will buy it.  We want to attract the people whom don't pick it up everyday.   The minority diehardest will always buy the product, but the product will not strive unless the material can appeal on a broader appeal.  Look at the New York Times Color Photos now and even the Wall Street Journal bends a bit on their front page.  If most of them had their way, we'd never progress. 

If the diehard onery stubborn people had their way, we'd be playing by first edition rules and the popularity of d and d would have been  just a cult hobby among these people.   Soon the game would have went the way of the army men figures and sports card collectors.  But d and d is too good to stay a cult hobbiest business.  And by ignoring the minority it has blossomed these last few years with d20, anti d20 and all there is between.


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## Felon (Jun 9, 2005)

So, no more wistful remembrance from Wil. Wow, what a loss. We'll just have to find a way to get on with our lives.


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## TheAuldGrump (Jun 9, 2005)

Quasqueton said:
			
		

> Maybe I should write the column then. So you can read all about relevant D&D.
> 
> Dungeons & Dragons [current edition] is the one true game. All previous editions were just attempts to achieve this level of excellence.
> 
> Quasqueton




OD&D is the fertilizer that the current game grew upon.

And we all know what fertilizer is, don't we? 

The Auld Grump

*EDIT* I really hoped that he would eventually get a game or three in with his stepkids.


----------



## Ratenef (Jun 9, 2005)

I am as disappointed to see Wil's article end as I was when Gary's vanished.

I've yet to meet a gamer who didn't want to share/listen to an RPG 'war story'. Essentially Wil (and Gary) provided these kind of stories from the lives of 'famous' people.

If PEOPLE magazine can sell a lot of issues talking about what Brad Pitt eats on Tuesdays, then Dungeon can spare a page for an EXCELLENT article that humanizes the game.

We often argue that there is too much roll playing and not enough role playing, yet here are examples of providing the humanistic aspects of the game that are being 'tossed'.

What made Wil's article that much sweeter was the fact that he was talking about his successes/failures with regards to getting his 'children' to play the game. As a parent of a child who is approaching a gaming age (8) I would eagerly turn to the end of the book each month to see what 'shared joy' would come from the newest Wil Save.

The funny thing is that when it was first announced that he would be writing an article, I was sorely tempted to send a letter to Dungeon advising them that I was the guy who only rented the movie Toy Soldiers to see Wil Wheaton be filled full of lead, and that as such I wasn't impressed with this idea. But only after his first article, I changed my mind and started looking forward to his monthly 'war stories'.


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## LeapingShark (Jun 9, 2005)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> When we do headlines in the paper, we are not catering to the die hard newspaper reader.  Those guys will pick up the paper every morning regarduless. They'll launch complaints about content and presentation, but in the end they will buy it.  We want to attract the people whom don't pick it up everyday.   The minority diehardest will always buy the product, but the product will not strive unless the material can appeal on a broader appeal.




I agree that switching to broader "mass appeal" content is always better for business.  I understand why we have feat/PrC crunch largely displacing descriptive background text in WOTC class/race supplements, why we have obligatory nudie scenes in movies; why we have TV cluttered with cookie-cutter sitcoms, talk shows, reality shows, and soap operas; why we have shortages of minority figures starring in lead drama roles, etc.  Going with a broad appeal format is more popular and more profitable.  I'm sure others can think of better examples of how monotonous mass appeal formats have displaced niche-programming (Firefly TV series?).  Risky ventures like Dungeon Adventures of the past are creeping towards expanded content, and may someday resemble a wide-open format like Dragon (or heck, even become another Cosmo!). It will definately be more popular and more successful that way too.  It just think it's an unfortunate aspect of reality, because there is no replacement option available anywhere, even on the Internet, for the narrow band of interest ("full adventures monthly") that may very well be displaced in tiny, mostly unnoticeable, increments.


----------



## Greylock (Jun 9, 2005)

I buy Dungeon mainly for the articles at the back. 75% of the magazine isn't useful to me (yet).  Losing Wil's column shrink's that back end, which is a loss to  me. That said,  I always have wondered why his column was in Dungeon and not Dragon, where it'd be a better  fit.

Has anyone pointed the fellow here yet? Plenty of positive stuff to cheer him...


----------



## Greylock (Jun 9, 2005)

Yeah, another  double post in one day...

I just got back from my first evah visit to the Paizo boards. *Erik Mona*! Slap that Trek boy around and get him writing again.  I refuse to believe that the same four or five yutz's on a mission could derail Wil's column. There is a lot of vitriol there, yes, but it comes from the same little pathetic squad that kept ressurecting the danged thread i the first place.


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## Jdvn1 (Jun 9, 2005)

Greylock said:
			
		

> Yeah, another  double post in one day...
> 
> I just got back from my first evah visit to the Paizo boards. *Erik Mona*! Slap that Trek boy around and get him writing again.  I refuse to believe that the same four or five yutz's on a mission could derail Wil's column. There is a lot of vitriol there, yes, but it comes from the same little pathetic squad that kept ressurecting the danged thread i the first place.



 Well, it wasn't the same four or five yutz's on a mission that derailed Wil's column.

Post #112 of this thread.
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=2313876&postcount=112


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## Greylock (Jun 9, 2005)

I saw that. Very particular wording. Did you see the part where Erik said the Paizo thread was part of Wil's decision?


----------



## Jdvn1 (Jun 9, 2005)

Greylock said:
			
		

> I saw that. Very particular wording. Did you see the part where Erik said the Paizo thread was part of Wil's decision?



 I get the impression that Erik was already bogged down with life (Erik mentions multiple times that Wil was 'overcommited').  The Paizo thread was a factor, but by no means the main reason Wil had to go.  Your phrase, "the same four or five yutz's on a mission could derail Wil's column" seems to imply you think those yutz's are the reason Wil left.  Well, the Mono didn't help either, and I definitely wouldn't put that as a lesser reason.


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## Erik Mona (Jun 9, 2005)

Greylock said:
			
		

> That said,  I always have wondered why his column was in Dungeon and not Dragon, where it'd be a better  fit.




When Sean Glenn and I came up with the idea, we weren't working on Dragon. If I'd been editing Dragon at the time, it probably would have ended up there.

--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dragon & Dungeon
Up Late Entering Changes for the Shackled City Hardcover


----------



## atom crash (Jun 9, 2005)

> --Erik Mona
> Editor-in-Chief
> Dragon & Dungeon
> Up Late Entering Changes for the Shackled City Hardcover




Back to work, you! I want that book.


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## Ranger REG (Jun 9, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> i gets what i pay for.



And I don't. Hence the drop.


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## Ranger REG (Jun 9, 2005)

TheAuldGrump said:
			
		

> OD&D is the fertilizer that the current game grew upon.
> 
> And we all know what fertilizer is, don't we?



My kind of sense of humor: dark and insulting on the sly.


----------



## Yeoman99 (Jun 9, 2005)

For what its worth I thoroughly enjoyed Wil's columns, and regularly bought Dungeon looking forward to that as much as some of the other material. I can't say I'm atrekkie fan, but the article resonated with me, a middle aged gamer and reminded me that I'm not the only gaming nut around.

I hope the nay-sayers on the Paizo board are not seen as anything more than a vocal minority. From what I hear the comments included some pretty vitriolic rubbish, which should not be representative of a supportive gaming community that cares about its hobby. Wil came across as an articulate and witty individual and I wish him well. I trust that those who did not enjoy his articles feel likewise in the cold light of day.


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## diaglo (Jun 9, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> I'm definetely with you on that!



ads wouldn't cheese me off in the least. i buy a lot of RPGs and related stuff.

an ad would serve the mission statement better for Dungeon. help defray costs. possibly lead to collaboration. etc...


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## JoeGKushner (Jun 9, 2005)

Yawn.

This barely picks up on the radar.

Now if he said he was taking his own life because of bad feedback, that might be interesting. He'd finally have something to say.


----------



## JediSoth (Jun 9, 2005)

> ads wouldn't cheese me off in the least. i buy a lot of RPGs and related stuff.
> 
> an ad would serve the mission statement better for Dungeon. help defray costs. possibly lead to collaboration. etc...




I don't know what it's like at Paizo, but my company publishes a trade magazine for independant hardware retailers and we always have trouble selling enough ads (and just think how many manufacturers of tools, paints & sundries, hardware, etc there are). Advertising is expensive. Even people who pay for advertising space sometimes don't get the ads to us in time (though there are millions of factors why they can't meet the deadline).

JediSoth


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## diaglo (Jun 9, 2005)

Simplicity said:
			
		

> Oh, I hope that the majority of D&D players aren't complete pricks.
> 
> Sure, we've got a lot of geeks.  Sure, geeks tend to have social... ahem... issues that are only aggravated by the Internet.  But do think it's a vocal minority and not a vocal majority that are like that.




you haven't been to many RPG message boards, have you?

i'd say Erik is right on for the backbone of message board type hobbyists.

edit: 







			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> However, I think that ornery gamers make up a significant chunk of the "active" base of roleplayers, the ones who subscribe to magazines, post online, etc.


----------



## diaglo (Jun 9, 2005)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> Let me be clear.
> 
> I don't think that ornery gamers are the bulk of gamers, by any stretch of the imagination. As you said, I think most gamers are "average" folks with "average" lives, to whom D&D is just a diversion.
> 
> ...




as one of those ornery curmudgeons, i totally agree. not that i had it out for Wil Save. as i said on paizo, i was indifferent.

edit: unlike Downer....   

and of course, i let Dungeon know full well my opinion of Poly when it was added.

and i danced a jig when it was finally cut.


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## diaglo (Jun 9, 2005)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> I spent a good bit of time going through that Paizo thread today.
> 
> How appalling.
> 
> ...




that's not what Erik meant.

how many lurkers do we have on ENWurld?

how many "active" users?

so whose opinions do you get to read?


----------



## Belen (Jun 9, 2005)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> With great respect to the people who still mourn Polyhedron (hey, I put it together!), I have to say that the vocal dislike on behalf of some customers was merely one element that ensured its demise. The sales numbers were the main reason we made the change.
> 
> While Dungeon with Polyhedron brought a bunch of new people to the magazine, it also drove off enough people that, at the end of the day, it was pretty much a wash. And when your circulation trendline is heading down, down, down, a "wash" doesn't quite do it.
> 
> ...




Hey Erik, ever thought about replacing Will Save with a similiar column from game designers or maybe stories from celebrities in the field about their first gaming experiences or why they play the game?


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## diaglo (Jun 9, 2005)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> My kind of sense of humor: dark and insulting on the sly.



and good both ways depending on how you take it.

i like fertilizer. it is what makes the world.. and in this case imagination grow.

a healthy imagination is all you need to play OD&D.


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## diaglo (Jun 9, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> Hey Erik, ever thought about replacing Will Save with a similiar column from game designers or maybe stories from celebrities in the field about their first gaming experiences or why they play the game?



and put it in Dragon magazine


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## diaglo (Jun 9, 2005)

for a cool replacement idea, i'd like to see the submitters to the issue talk about their playtest sessions about the adventure they submitted.

background for a DM to use or consider.

i'm sure there are a lot of things submitted with each adventure that never see print. maybe add these tidbits to the new column.

kinda like when nodwick was in the issue. instead of cartoons based on the issue's adventures.. a column based on the current issue or just one of the adventures.


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## Belen (Jun 9, 2005)

The Shaman said:
			
		

> I freely admit this is a subject in which rationality goes out the window for me, I'm afraid...
> 
> The people who stopped buying _Dungeon_ because of _Poly_ exerted a different sort of pressure on the publisher, one which hit the bottom line instead of the message boards. But it's the same kind of response, one in which ruining someone else's fun is okay if it means getting one's way. Don't like the mini-games? Boycott the magazine! Don't like the column? Bad-mouth the writer! It's small-minded, and it's ugly.




Dude...meet chip.  

So you are telling consumers to buy a magazine that no longer has the same content and quality just because a small number of people are a fan of Polyhedron (which used to come free with a membership to the RPGA)?

That is liking forcing people to buy New Coke because a few people like the new taste.

It is absolutely correct to vote with your wallet.

Also, I believe that taking out Polyhedron increased orders from Vendors as well as subscriptions because the magazine made more sense to them.


----------



## LeapingShark (Jun 9, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> for a cool replacement idea, i'd like to see the submitters to the issue talk about their playtest sessions about the adventure they submitted.



Bingo! Very relevant to the adventures, and could even include some of the human element that others crave (e.g. when Erik's cat knocked over the walls of the Feral Dog tavern to pounce on a rolling d20). And since many of the adventures are written by big wigs in the business, (Keith Baker, Monte Cook, etc), you've got your famous figure too. I think it would be great!


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## Henry (Jun 9, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> A lot of the obsessive fan's are probably also completionist's that want to buy ever product for their favorite game lines, so I can see where the opinion comes from.
> 
> No way to tell though, since I doubt they'd check the "are you insane" box on any survey.




I came very close to asking if I could quote this in my sig, but came back to my senses.


----------



## Henry (Jun 9, 2005)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> I don't know about that, but what I do know is that a magazine isn't really a necessity like boots. Some may want to check out the magazine on the stands before buying it, and have the freedom to not buy if they want to. It could well be that some don't really expect to buy Dungeon every month, but are won over after a look at it on the stands. I know I don't buy every issue of Dungeon, so getting a subscription isn't really all that attractive to me.




Many times I've debated getting a subscription to Dungeon and Dragon, but I always shortly before looked at the current newstand issue, found little of interest, and decided against it. If the current quality keeps up, I may wind up doing it for real, possibly on my birthday or Christmas.


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## Ranes (Jun 9, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> a healthy imagination is all you need to play OD&D.




That's all you need to play any edition. If you're talking about DMing OD&D, add:

And a copy of Chainmail. And a copy of Outdoor Survival. And/or a lot of time.

But I do like your idea about a column that supports that issue's adventures, whether it's DMing tips, deconstruction, development/playtest diary. Very good idea. But if the page has to become another ad, that's fine too.


----------



## DonTadow (Jun 9, 2005)

I'd like to see an article based on someone's real life d and d group.  HOw their sessions go what happens in them from somewhat of a narative point of view.  I like Eric's recent Editorial's in which he's been talking about the storyline of his new campaign.  I'd love to see something like that.  Something that mixes real life with gaming without having to include d20 stats.  

  Again I'd like something that 's a bit broader back there.  Something I can pick up and rread without the hassel of going back to issue 122 to see what adventure their talking about and if its relevent.


----------



## diaglo (Jun 9, 2005)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> Again I'd like something that 's a bit broader back there.  Something I can pick up and rread without the hassel of going back to issue 122 to see what adventure their talking about and if its relevent.



make it one of the authors talking about one of the adventures in the issue....

no other purchase necessary


----------



## DonTadow (Jun 9, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> make it one of the authors talking about one of the adventures in the issue....
> 
> no other purchase necessary



But how would that work and what would they talk about?  What inspired them to write the adventure?  Are we getting a director's commentary of the adventure?  

There's no appeal to hte article if the person doesnt read the adventure first, which leads away from what a last page article is used for.  It's like someone said above, the last few pages should be independant articles that have nothing to do with adventures ore adventures in any of the magazines.  If that's the case forget the writing and stick a couple of cut out battlemaps back there, else find something that engages on a broad appeal.


----------



## diaglo (Jun 9, 2005)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> If that's the case forget the writing and stick a couple of cut out battlemaps back there, else find something that engages on a broad appeal.





i suggested that too.

return the maps of mystery.

or more ads.

i wasn't saying the article by the authors had to be the last page...


----------



## DonTadow (Jun 9, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> i suggested that too.
> 
> return the maps of mystery.
> 
> ...



I like the map idea. AS a raeder if i'm in a store pick it up and turn to the back and see a beautifully drawn battlemap.. even if its just 8 by 11 it still would be cool and a reason for me to buy the magazine.

I wrote a letter by email a bit ago in which i would like for the two magazines to consider providing a pdf attachment at an increased subscription fee.  That may also help boost subscriptions as it will make the material more accessible to a lot of us who use pcs during game.


----------



## Blackthorne (Jun 9, 2005)

I´m kinda neutral on Wil Save. Didn´t love it, didn´t hate it.

But if we´re talking about page count now...drop Downer, for Pete´s sake! Nobody likes Downer. It´s ugly, it´s rambling, it´s not even remotely funny IMHO. 

Hell, while you´re at it, drop Mt. Zogon and The Portent, too. Bring back Nodwick or get Dork Tower or OotS into the mag.


----------



## LeapingShark (Jun 9, 2005)

RE: the idea to include stories of an author's personal gaming experiences during playtesting of their own adventure



> There's no appeal to hte article if the person doesnt read the adventure first, which leads away from what a last page article is used for.



Why so? Was there no appeal about Wil's gaming experiences by not seeing his DM's statblocks first? 


> I'd like to see an article based on someone's real life d and d group.



If the author DM'd the module with a group of players before submitting it (e.g. Erik Mona DMing the Paizo staff through Whispering Cairn), isn't that a real life D&D group?


----------



## DaveMage (Jun 9, 2005)

How about a column called "On The Horizon" where various industry gurus expound on where they feel the game is headed?

Of course, if we want to go "retro" then the a column could be written by various authors sharing their favorite past D&D moments.

Finally, if a column is right out, then I would suggest the last page be a random encounter table (d100?).  Each month the table could focus on a different environment.


----------



## Psychic Warrior (Jun 9, 2005)

Blackthorne said:
			
		

> I´m kinda neutral on Wil Save. Didn´t love it, didn´t hate it.
> 
> But if we´re talking about page count now...drop Downer, for Pete´s sake! Nobody likes Downer. It´s ugly, it´s rambling, it´s not even remotely funny IMHO.
> 
> Hell, while you´re at it, drop Mt. Zogon and The Portent, too. Bring back Nodwick or get Dork Tower or OotS into the mag.





This I agree with.  If I had a choice between Downer, Mt Zogon or Wil Save, Wil Save would win every time.

My hat of Downr nos know limit.


----------



## BiggusGeekus (Jun 9, 2005)

Psychic Warrior said:
			
		

> This I agree with.  If I had a choice between Downer, Mt Zogon or Wil Save, Wil Save would win every time.
> 
> My hat of Downr nos know limit.





I think Downer might be fine if I were to read it all at once.  I know they're making some attempt to pattern it after the old "Wormy" strips, but the difference is that with "Wormy" each strip could more-or-less stand on it's own.  If you saw mudtrolls and hobgoblins fighting at the ogre's dinnertable, you didn't know the context of the fight, but you could still appriciate the fight.  Same thing with building the wargaming keep.  A first time reader may not have known _why_ a keep was being built on a giant sandtable, but that was something you generally didn't need to know to appriciate the rest of the strip.

[/end ramble]


----------



## Psychic Warrior (Jun 9, 2005)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> I think Downer might be fine if I were to read it all at once.  I know they're making some attempt to pattern it after the old "Wormy" strips, but the difference is that with "Wormy" each strip could more-or-less stand on it's own.  If you saw mudtrolls and hobgoblins fighting at the ogre's dinnertable, you didn't know the context of the fight, but you could still appriciate the fight.  Same thing with building the wargaming keep.  A first time reader may not have known _why_ a keep was being built on a giant sandtable, but that was something you generally didn't need to know to appriciate the rest of the strip.
> 
> [/end ramble]




So how does one overcome the poor art and complete lack of writing skill?  Downer is avoided like the plague in my issue of Dungeon.


----------



## Ogrork the Mighty (Jun 9, 2005)

I'd rather have _Maps of Mystery_ than any blog/column...


----------



## Ariddrake (Jun 9, 2005)

This is just a thought Eric, if Wil's column is not going to be there and one page will be empty in the back have something called "War Stories" where your average gamer, or celebrity submits a story about a memorable part in an adventure they were in. It could be by a different person every month. You would get a lot of crazy submissions. But readers could tell stories that they probably tell everyboby at the gaming shop. My Elf ninja was the bomb, he single handedly killed 126 lizard men with a +6 sword she found in a evil gold dragon pile, etc. Good stuff.


----------



## Jupp (Jun 9, 2005)

Hm something like a "What happend to...." column would be nice. It would cover people that work or worked in the industry and explaining what they do at the moment and what they are working on. It could also cover items (from introduction up to today, who owned them and who owns them now), spells (how they evolved over the different editions, how they were invented), NPCs or Monsters. Everything everyone always wondered  "Hmm, what happend to xyz" The good thing with that sort of column is that you have endless possibilities each month what you want to have in it.


----------



## Vigwyn the Unruly (Jun 9, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Yawn.
> 
> This barely picks up on the radar.
> 
> Now if he said he was taking his own life because of bad feedback, that might be interesting. He'd finally have something to say.




You do realize that he is an actual person, right? You know, a human being of flesh and blood, just like you and me. Don't you think this kind of statement is somewhat cruel?


----------



## jcfiala (Jun 9, 2005)

Blackthorne said:
			
		

> Hell, while you´re at it, drop Mt. Zogon and The Portent, too. Bring back Nodwick or get Dork Tower or OotS into the mag.




I loves me the Mt. Zogon.  Creepy Underdark chick and her talking mushroom are too too funny.

I want to like Downer more, but I really think the format isn't working for the story.  There are bits of it I've really liked, but it's hard to get into half-way, and that's a problem when the story lasts this long.


----------



## DonTadow (Jun 9, 2005)

Psychic Warrior said:
			
		

> This I agree with.  If I had a choice between Downer, Mt Zogon or Wil Save, Wil Save would win every time.
> 
> My hat of Downr nos know limit.



Yeah I hate that cartoon.  I just can't follow it and it makes no sense.  You'd probably sell more if you replace them all with battlemaps.  

Outside of battlemaps I like any idea that is human interest related and not related to the adventures in any of the magazines.  Unless you take the concept from computer gaming monthly in which they do dialogue based on them playing a game they reviewed in the magazine.  But the dialogue is less about the game than it is about their personalities and competitiveness.  I could you doing that sort of a DM vs player.  Whereas a DM gives his thoughts and then the player gives his thougths on a situation.  However, this would have to be done in house or using the same writers in order to insure consistentcy.


----------



## DonTadow (Jun 9, 2005)

Vigwyn the Unruly said:
			
		

> You do realize that he is an actual person, right? You know, a human being of flesh and blood, just like you and me. Don't you think this kind of statement is somewhat cruel?



This is typical of the paizo boards.  Stuff like that on here will get you banned


----------



## Jupp (Jun 9, 2005)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> This is typical of the paizo boards.  Stuff like that on here will get you banned





you mean like this? http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=2315859&postcount=184


----------



## Barak (Jun 9, 2005)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> This is typical of the paizo boards. Stuff like that on here will get you banned




On here, it sorta depends on who said it.  If it was you or I, we'd probably get taken to task (prolly not banned unless it was a common occurence).  As it is, I'd lay down even money nothing will come of it.


----------



## KB9JMQ (Jun 9, 2005)

I am sorry to see it go. It was the first thing I read.
I would really like to see Maps of Mystery fill the spot if at all possible.
Maps make my day.
Or at least replace Downer with Maps of Mystery


----------



## JoeGKushner (Jun 9, 2005)

Vigwyn the Unruly said:
			
		

> You do realize that he is an actual person, right? You know, a human being of flesh and blood, just like you and me. Don't you think this kind of statement is somewhat cruel?




Didn't say he was a jerk or anything. His column does nothing for me and his  reaction is childish and adds nothing. 

Am I wrong for stating that this is basically non-news for me and that it's impact is pretty minimal?


----------



## JoeGKushner (Jun 9, 2005)

Psychic Warrior said:
			
		

> So how does one overcome the poor art and complete lack of writing skill?  Downer is avoided like the plague in my issue of Dungeon.




This is a ditto for me too. Downer is well, a downer.


----------



## reveal (Jun 9, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Didn't say he was a jerk or anything. His column does nothing for me and his  reaction is childish and adds nothing.
> 
> Am I wrong for stating that this is basically non-news for me and that it's impact is pretty minimal?




I think you're wrong for saying it should only be news, or that it would only be interesting, if he had killed himself. Whether or not you agree with his reasons, that was uncalled for.


----------



## Mark Hope (Jun 9, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Didn't say he was a jerk or anything. His column does nothing for me and his  reaction is childish and adds nothing.
> 
> Am I wrong for stating that this is basically non-news for me and that it's impact is pretty minimal?



Actually, I think it was more your comment about him taking his own life that was a tad off-colour.  Intended as a humorous aside or not, it's not a very nice thing to say.


----------



## Psychic Warrior (Jun 9, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Didn't say he was a jerk or anything. His column does nothing for me and his  reaction is childish and adds nothing.
> 
> Am I wrong for stating that this is basically non-news for me and that it's impact is pretty minimal?




I think it was the implied desire to see him commit suicide that prompted those responses.


----------



## Barak (Jun 9, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Am I wrong for stating that this is basically non-news for me and that it's impact is pretty minimal?




I'm probably in the wrong, so I apologize in advance, but I believe the issue was more with saying that the only way he'd have anything to say would be to announce he was commiting suicide.  But as I said, I probably misread or something.


----------



## DonTadow (Jun 9, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Didn't say he was a jerk or anything. His column does nothing for me and his  reaction is childish and adds nothing.
> 
> Am I wrong for stating that this is basically non-news for me and that it's impact is pretty minimal?



Oh wow ... And your reaction isn't childish?  Aren't you calling the kettle black.  

  His reaction is justified.  If I wasn't use to people wishing "death on me" on a regular basis, i'd quit too.  It wasn't the negativity as much as it was the harshness and immaturity of  yours comment and others.  And Yes I AM saying you were a jerk for making that comment.


----------



## JoeGKushner (Jun 9, 2005)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> Oh wow ... And your reaction isn't childish?  Aren't you calling the kettle black.
> 
> His reaction is justified.  If I wasn't use to people wishing "death on me" on a regular basis, i'd quit too.  It wasn't the negativity as much as it was the harshness and immaturity of  yours comment and others.  And Yes I AM saying you were a jerk for making that comment.




I don't wish death on him. Arey ou having a hard time reading? I said that if he said he was killing himself because of feedback that it'd be interesting, not that I wished it.

And hey, as far as jerk, I've been called worse by better.


----------



## DonTadow (Jun 9, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> I don't wish death on him. Arey ou having a hard time reading? I said that if he said he was killing himself because of feedback that it'd be interesting, not that I wished it.
> 
> And hey, as far as jerk, I've been called worse by better.



Rhetoric aside, saying that the only way someone would have something to say is unless their reporting their suicide is cruel and insensitive in the real world.  Are these the gamers that Erik is talking about whom are "the backbone" of this industry?


----------



## reveal (Jun 9, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> I don't wish death on him. Arey ou having a hard time reading? I said that if he said he was killing himself because of feedback that it'd be interesting, not that I wished it.
> 
> And hey, as far as jerk, I've been called worse by better.




"Now if he said he was taking his own life because of bad feedback, that might be interesting. He'd finally have something to say."

While you didn't say he should kill himself, implying that it would only be interesting if he _were_ going to kill himself is in poor taste, IMO.


----------



## Mark Hope (Jun 9, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> I don't wish death on him. Arey ou having a hard time reading? I said that if he said he was killing himself because of feedback that it'd be interesting, not that I wished it.
> 
> And hey, as far as jerk, I've been called worse by better.



However you paint it, your comment was unpleasant at best.  If that's the kind of thing that you would call "interesting", you have my sympathies.


----------



## Vigwyn the Unruly (Jun 9, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Am I wrong for stating that this is basically non-news for me and that it's impact is pretty minimal?




Umm...no. What was wrong was the whole...you know...*suicide* thing.


----------



## JoeGKushner (Jun 9, 2005)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> Rhetoric aside, saying that the only way someone would have something to say is unless their reporting their suicide is cruel and insensitive in the real world.  Are these the gamers that Erik is talking about whom are "the backbone" of this industry?




Couldn't tell you.

Let's see... I game twice a week, generally one RPG game and one board/war game.

Spend probably about $50+ a month on hobby supplies.

Not active in the RPGA although I do attend game days.

Dont' care about 'personalities' being used to promote gaming. Trying to sell me a book with someone's name on it because they're well known isn't a good point of sales tactic for me. It's the content I'm more intersted in.

Does that make me the "backbone" of this industry? Someone who doesn't care if someone from Star Trek writes a column in a magazine I buy and that he's leaving because he's been badmouthed?


----------



## Breakdaddy (Jun 9, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> And hey, as far as jerk, I've been called worse by better.




True enough. I've called you many things that would just get edited if I typed them here. 

P.S.- The whole brooding cynic thing is so 1989..


----------



## JoeGKushner (Jun 9, 2005)

Breakdaddy said:
			
		

> True enough. I've called you many things that would just get edited if I typed them here.




And yet somehow, the internet continues to thrive! Truly this is the land of the free.


----------



## Chroma (Jun 9, 2005)

I may be the only one, but just in case the artisit/writer of Downer reads these boards, I *really* like Downer!  The high-powered Underdark stuff, plane-hopping, etc... and the female githyanki character sealed the deal for me!


----------



## diaglo (Jun 9, 2005)

Breakdaddy said:
			
		

> True enough. I've called you many things that would just get edited if I typed them here.



i've called him many things that have been edited by the mods.

i refused to edit them myself. as that is how i felt.


----------



## Breakdaddy (Jun 9, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> And yet somehow, the internet continues to thrive! Truly this is the land of the free.




Your a quick one, Mr. Grinch.


----------



## JoeGKushner (Jun 9, 2005)

Breakdaddy said:
			
		

> Your a quick one, Mr. Grinch.




I try.


----------



## rowport (Jun 9, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> make it one of the authors talking about one of the adventures in the issue....
> 
> no other purchase necessary



This is a very clever suggestion; Erik, I hope that you seriously consider it.  You already have top-notch writers (including yourself, heh) doing the next campaign series; why not offer a 'slice of life' view of some of the playtest sessions?  Heck, I know from the Paizo boards that some of your players are already posting stuff in the Journal section!


----------



## Jdvn1 (Jun 9, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> I don't wish death on him. Arey ou having a hard time reading?



And yet it seems like a number of people got the impression you wish he'd commit suicide.


----------



## JoeGKushner (Jun 9, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> And yet it seems like a number of people got the impression you wish he'd commit suicide.




They're reading too much into my lack of interest in his reason for dropping the site and his reaction to 'bad' fan mail.


----------



## reveal (Jun 9, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> They're reading too much into my lack of interest in his reason for dropping the site and his reaction to 'bad' fan mail.




Yes, everyone is at fault here except for you. How silly of us to take offense to a statement declaring that the only way this might be interesting was if the author decided he wanted to commit suicide.  :\


----------



## DonTadow (Jun 9, 2005)

rowport said:
			
		

> This is a very clever suggestion; Erik, I hope that you seriously consider it.  You already have top-notch writers (including yourself, heh) doing the next campaign series; why not offer a 'slice of life' view of some of the playtest sessions?  Heck, I know from the Paizo boards that some of your players are already posting stuff in the Journal section!



It's just too specific and leads to too many chances of the back article being poorly written.  Writing an adventure and writing prose is two different things and not a lot of writers can do both well. 

 I have to be interested in the adventure to want to read it, which takes away from the articles in the back.  Plus its in the back and in magazine viewership you're eithera  front to back or a back to front reader.  If I open it up and see a writer talking about an adventure I have yet to read I'd sooner put the magazine back on the rack.  The backpage has to be a oneshot article that is either independent of other content in the magazine or something really catchy to draw a reader into the magazine.


----------



## DonTadow (Jun 9, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> They're reading too much into my lack of interest in his reason for dropping the site and his reaction to 'bad' fan mail.



What's too read into This is what you said 

"If he said he was taking his own life because of bad feedback, that might be interesting"

I didn't need to read into that, all I needed to do was read it.  You can't even backpedal on this.  There's damage control you can do.  YOu flat out said that if he wrote about his suicide you'd be interested.  That's just not a healthy thing to say.


----------



## diaglo (Jun 9, 2005)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> ...you're eithera  front to back or a back to front reader...



i strongly disagree.

i goto the middle first.

diaglo "ain't ashamed to admit he likes the centerfold" Ooi


----------



## JoeGKushner (Jun 9, 2005)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> What's too read into This is waht you said
> 
> "If he said he was taking his own life because of bad feedback, that might be interesting"
> 
> I didn't need to read into that, all I needed to do was read it.  You can't even backpedal on this.  There's damage control you can do.  YOu flat out said that if he wrote about his suicide you'd be interested.  That's just not a healthy thing to say.




Backpeddle?

As stated, his comment that he was leaving the magazine for bad mail is well, non news. Him actually doing something about it, would be interesting.

I could have state, "Now if he said he was going to hunt down people like in the Jay and Silent Bob films, that'd be interesting."

I could have said a thousand things to indicate that his column bored me and that his 'leaving' message bored me.

However, I stand by what I said. 

How many of you wouldn't be interested in it? Would you go, "Man, that's boring. I wish he'd just leave the magazine because some people didn't like it."

I remain the eternal cynic.


----------



## Barak (Jun 9, 2005)

Come on now people!  We -obviously- got what he meant to say wrong.  I mean, it was Joe who wrote that post, not just some schmuck off the street, so obviously he didn't mean anything bad.  In fact, he should be given the column in Dungeon.


----------



## JoeGKushner (Jun 9, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> Yes, everyone is at fault here except for you. How silly of us to take offense to a statement declaring that the only way this might be interesting was if the author decided he wanted to commit suicide.  :\




You can take offense.

The only way that bit of news would be interesting to me is if it actually meant something.

I assurey ou, Dungeon magazine will continue to come out.


----------



## JoeGKushner (Jun 9, 2005)

Barak said:
			
		

> Come on now people!  We -obviously- got what he meant to say wrong.  I mean, it was Joe who wrote that post, not just some schmuck off the street, so obviously he didn't mean anything bad.  In fact, he should be given the column in Dungeon.




Then you'd get more cynical wisdom. In which case I'd have to bow to Diago. "Why do you people keep buying this magazine! It was too expensive back in 1985 and it's too expensive now."   

Much like here, it wouldn't come across with the 'bitter' humor I'm know for.

The internet has a great many things going for it, but crystal clear communication is not one of them.


----------



## MonsterMash (Jun 9, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> maybe i should write the column then.
> 
> and you can read all about real D&D.
> 
> Original D&D(1974) is the only true game. All the other editions are just poor imitations of the real thing.



Applauds Diaglo getting his sig in on a non-edition wars thread!


----------



## Mystery Man (Jun 9, 2005)

MonsterMash said:
			
		

> Applauds Diaglo getting his sig in on a non-edition wars thread!





He could find a way to do it in an insurance underwriting forum. He's got mad skillz that way!


----------



## DonTadow (Jun 9, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> i strongly disagree.
> 
> i goto the middle first.
> 
> diaglo "ain't ashamed to admit he likes the centerfold" Ooi



Hillarious... hey that's not a bad idea.  Your perversion may have led to something.  How about abattlemap in every issue that folds out like a centerfold.


----------



## WizarDru (Jun 9, 2005)

Actually, forget I said anything.


----------



## Henry (Jun 9, 2005)

> He could find a way to do it in an insurance underwriting forum. He's got mad skillz that way!




Don't test him (Diaglo, I mean); Gary Gygax, who wrote the Original D&D (1974) game, did insurance sales for a time. It's like candy from a baby.


----------



## DonTadow (Jun 9, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Backpeddle?
> 
> As stated, his comment that he was leaving the magazine for bad mail is well, non news. Him actually doing something about it, would be interesting.
> 
> ...




Irony, this non-news has racked up 7 pages of discussion in two days.  Man I"m glad you're not an editor of anything newsworthy.


----------



## GVDammerung (Jun 9, 2005)

Something that is being overlooked here, I think, is that, setting aside the characterization of the anti-Wil Save comments, Erik appears to have found something in the anti-Wil Save comments sufficiently meritorious to go to Wil Wheaton and ask him to adjust the focus of his columns. He did not have to do this. Neither has he indicated that he "caved in" to a "vocal minority."

Wil Save appears to have died for the exact reason its detractors identified - it was not appropriate content. Erik appears to have realized this at some level and thus asked Wheaton for a change. Wheaton determined he could not comply and resigned the column.

A viciously vocal minority did not kill Wil Save. The detractors appear to have contributed, as did Wheaton’s personal situation, but they also appear to have had a point sufficient to have Erik ask Wheaton for a change, which catalyzed the situation.


----------



## JoeGKushner (Jun 9, 2005)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> Irony, this non-news has racked up 7 pages of discussion in two days.  Man I"m glad you're not an editor of anything newsworthy.




Ah, but how many of them are "down with Downer" or "Joe Kushner is a jerk" response threads as opposed to, "Man, this sure is news!"


----------



## EricNoah (Jun 9, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> And yet it seems like a number of people got the impression you wish he'd commit suicide.




Gotta say, Joe, that was my reading of it too. You had me scared there for a sec! I appreciate your attempt to clarify.


----------



## reveal (Jun 9, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Gotta say, Joe, that was my reading of it too. You had me scared there for a sec! I appreciate your attempt to clarify.




What attempts to clarify? Clarification is trying to explain what you meant when you wrote. Sans one post, all I've seen are "that's not what I meant; you can't read" comments.


----------



## Jdvn1 (Jun 9, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> What attempts to clarify? Clarification is trying to explain what you meant when you wrote. Sans one post, all I've seen are "that's not what I meant; you can't read" comments.



 For one, he said he didn't wish the death of Wil.  That's a plus.


----------



## JoeGKushner (Jun 9, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> For one, he said he didn't wish the death of Wil.  That's a plus.




Run Jdvn1, you're attempts to 'back peddle' for me will only wind up getting you flamed.


----------



## Mark (Jun 9, 2005)

GVDammerung said:
			
		

> Something that is being overlooked here, I think, is that, setting aside the characterization of the anti-Wil Save comments, Erik appears to have found something in the anti-Wil Save comments sufficiently meritorious to go to Wil Wheaton and ask him to adjust the focus of his columns. He did not have to do this. Neither has he indicated that he "caved in" to a "vocal minority."
> 
> Wil Save appears to have died for the exact reason its detractors identified - it was not appropriate content. Erik appears to have realized this at some level and thus asked Wheaton for a change. Wheaton determined he could not comply and resigned the column.
> 
> A viciously vocal minority did not kill Wil Save. The detractors appear to have contributed, as did Wheaton’s personal situation, but they also appear to have had a point sufficient to have Erik ask Wheaton for a change, which catalyzed the situation.





Welcome to the boards (or out of lurkerdom)! 

I think it might be overreaching to lump together all of the people who made directly negative comments about Wil Wheaton personally and those who may have had a point regarding the content.  Wil does say that he didn't feel he had the material he had hoped he would to contribute because his campaign never got underway but he mentions all of the negativity as a seperate issue and one that ultimately decided things.  I understand what you mean but I wouldn't package it all together in quite the same way.


----------



## Barak (Jun 9, 2005)

Just a question from a rather humble supplicant, Joe.

How come you don't post in every single thread in the General Discussion Forum that is less news-worthy then the one about the fact that a column was dropped from a monthly D&D-related magazine to inform the poster that, well, they should talk about themselves committing suicide before you would want to read their posts?  

I'm just curious, and deeply apologizing should my post have offended anyone.


----------



## JoeGKushner (Jun 9, 2005)

Barak said:
			
		

> Just a question for a rather humble supplicant, Joe.
> 
> How come you don't post in every single thread in the General Discussion Forum that is less news-worthy then the one about the fact that a column was dropped from a monthly D&D-related magazine to inform the poster that, well, they should talk about themselves committing suicide before you would want to read their posts?
> 
> I'm just curious, and deeply apologizing should my post have offended anyone.




It would take too much time.

No, seriously.


----------



## reveal (Jun 9, 2005)

Ok, can we please get this back on track? I don't agree with JoeG or what he posted but this is turning into childish name calling (even from me ). That is all.


----------



## EricNoah (Jun 9, 2005)

Agreed, bigtime.  It's been a while since I was this embarrassed to be an EN Worlder...


----------



## diaglo (Jun 9, 2005)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> Hillarious... hey that's not a bad idea.  Your perversion may have led to something.  How about abattlemap in every issue that folds out like a centerfold.



exactly.

the now new page doesn't have to be the last one.

it could be placed anywhere in the mag. and place monte's as the last one.


----------



## diaglo (Jun 9, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Agreed, bigtime.  It's been a while since I was this embarrassed to be an EN Worlder...





i'm never ashamed to admit i'm an ENWurlder.

diaglo "just that i play the newer editions" Ooi


----------



## Henry (Jun 9, 2005)

Regarding Joe's comments:

I don't agree with them myself, but I wouldn't mind if the thread drifted back more toward discussion of the columns themselves, if it's going to keep going at all.


----------



## reveal (Jun 9, 2005)

I, for one, liked the column. I like his writing style and it was interesting to get a more "personalized" sense of what D&D means to a person who doesn't game all the time or isn't in the gaming industry.

With that said, I couldn't care less that the column is leaving. I'm glad he's trying to get his life in order and all that but, honestly, I read Dungeon more for the adventures and the DM tidbits. If they replace it with a column similar to Wil Save, I'll probably read that one too. If they don't, I really don't care.


----------



## Barak (Jun 9, 2005)

Henry said:
			
		

> Regarding Joe's comments:
> 
> I don't agree with them myself, but I wouldn't mind if the thread drifted back more toward discussion of the columns themselves, if it's going to keep going at all.




Agreed, and as I have no opinion that matters in the discussion, will withdraw.

Anyone who mentally took on my bet, send me an e-mail a jfmador(at)yahoo.com, and I'll reply with my paypal info so you can pay up.


----------



## Jdvn1 (Jun 9, 2005)

I agreed with Erik that the column but a more human face on the magazine.  I like it when my magazines are written by people who seem to enjoy what they're doing, and not just giving information.


----------



## Mark (Jun 9, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> It's been a while since I was this embarrassed to be an EN Worlder...





_You could post more often..._


----------



## Banshee16 (Jun 9, 2005)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> Not that I have anything against him (at least, until I visted his blog and saw his bizzare political rant. I'm sure GWB is shaking in his boots now that Mr. Wheaton is going to use his new blog to get out the "truth" about him. Mwhahahahahahahaha.). But I never understood the point of having someone write a column in a gaming magazine that really isn't a gamer.
> 
> I mean, does having a bit part on Star Trek qualify him to write about D&D? Maybe he played as a kid, but if he doesn't on a regular basis, then why have a column?




Geez..that's harsh.  How many players or DMs post on these boards, and are into the game, but don't have a current group, or due to life pressures, haven't been able to play in a few years.  Lack of a group or time doesn't mean you're not a gamer.

Not enjoying gaming, not being "into" it, makes you not a gamer.

Big difference.  

Banshee


----------



## Henry (Jun 9, 2005)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> Not enjoying gaming, not being "into" it, makes you not a gamer.
> 
> Big difference.
> 
> Banshee




There is that, and in his column he's noted several times the gaming he's done at recent conventions, as well as his experience in other RPG's than D&D. But I do think if he planned to write D&D because he had an upcoming campaign, and it fizzled, and he couldn't adjust his column, then it does make less for him to keep writing.

Whatever the reason, I hope he gets both his life and his blog the way he wants them.


----------



## JoeGKushner (Jun 9, 2005)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> Geez..that's harsh.  How many players or DMs post on these boards, and are into the game, but don't have a current group, or due to life pressures, haven't been able to play in a few years.  Lack of a group or time doesn't mean you're not a gamer.
> 
> Not enjoying gaming, not being "into" it, makes you not a gamer.
> 
> ...




But how many of them are writing a gaming column?


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Jun 9, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> But how many of them are writing a gaming column?




That's not a great counterpoint. The vast majority of people simply aren't good enough at writing to have a column of any kind.


----------



## JoeGKushner (Jun 9, 2005)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> That's not a great counterpoint. The vast majority of people simply aren't good enough at writing to have a column of any kind.




I could've heard this wrong, but weren't some of Will's columns taken from his blog?


----------



## diaglo (Jun 9, 2005)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> That's not a great counterpoint. The vast majority of people simply aren't good enough at writing to have a column of any kind.




any old schmoe on here can write a story hour. 

read the one in my sig.


----------



## reveal (Jun 9, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> I could've heard this wrong, but weren't some of Will's columns taken from his blog?




No. AFAIK, his blog and his professional writings are seperate entities.


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Jun 9, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> I could've heard this wrong, but weren't some of Will's columns taken from his blog?




The first one, I believe. Erik Mona would be able to answer this accurately. Wheaton's blog has garnered him a lot of recognition beyond gaming, including a book deal. He's a good writer.


----------



## EricNoah (Jun 9, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> No. AFAIK, his blog and his professional writings are seperate entities.




I thought I'd heard that maybe his first two installments in Dungeon were indeed from his blog.  Can't remember for sure though.


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Jun 9, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> any old schmoe on here can write a story hour.




Doesn't mean they're a good writer.


----------



## reveal (Jun 9, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> I thought I'd heard that maybe his first two installments in Dungeon were indeed from his blog.  Can't remember for sure though.




I could be wrong. It's happened more times than I'd care to admit.


----------



## fanboy2000 (Jun 9, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> any old schmoe on here can write a story hour.



You're wrong. Any story hour from me would be painful to read.


----------



## GVDammerung (Jun 9, 2005)

Mark said:
			
		

> Welcome to the boards (or out of lurkerdom)!
> 
> I think it might be overreaching to lump together all of the people who made directly negative comments about Wil Wheaton personally and those who may have had a point regarding the content.




Thank you.    On and off lurker, finally registering.  

I agree.  I would not want to lump everyone who was critical of Wil Save together.  In fact, IMO, there was far less vituperation than might be thought from reading reactions to the demise of the column.  I will imagine that it was some of the less biting criticism that may have played a part in ocassioning the request that Wheaton adjust the focus of his articles.


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## JoeGKushner (Jun 9, 2005)

fanboy2000 said:
			
		

> You're wrong. Any story hour from me would be painful to read.




Is it done on razor paper? Steel edged razor paper? Or must it be read in a locked box rapidly filling up with water?


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## reveal (Jun 9, 2005)

GVDammerung said:
			
		

> vituperation




*Ding!* Well, I learned my new word for the day. Off to bed!


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## buzz (Jun 9, 2005)

This thread makes me sad for two reasons.

1. I really liked Wil's column. To add to the chorus, it's the first thing I read each month.

2. It forcibly reminds me that there are gamers out there who want to actively eschew even a single page of content in a gaming magazine that isn't specifically rules or adventure content. That, gawd forbid, a gaming magazine should occasionally contain lively and interesting commentary on the hobby or, gosh, allow a celebrity (one who's a celebrity outside the gaming realm, to boot) to put a human face on a hobby that's now just over 30 years old and influenced countless other media, yet is still looked at with derision, not to mention one in which almost no one can earn a decent living.

It makes me wonder if all the great gaming buddies I have are really the minority, and I'm simply lucky, and that, otherwise, we gamers are antisocial nitwits who deserve all of the ridicule heaped upon us.

"We have met the enemy, and they is us."


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## JoeGKushner (Jun 9, 2005)

buzz said:
			
		

> This thread makes me sad for two reasons.
> 
> 1. I really liked Wil's column. To add to the chorus, it's the first thing I read each month.
> 
> ...




They be us Buzz. They be us...

On a more serious note, perhaps it's simply because few people found the information Will wrote lively or interesting and that he's a celebrity of... well, he's not Bradd Pitt, and his fame is for a character many people hated with a passion.

And just because people are vocal about not liking Will, doesn't make them bad people overall. You'll not find any previous post of me badmouthing him or anything. No sending of hate mail. I just wasn't interested in him but I can see where others might've taken it to the next step.


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## buzz (Jun 9, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> And just because people are vocal about not liking Will, doesn't make them bad people overall.



I know, I know... Just the principle of the thing gets my dander up.  :\


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## reveal (Jun 9, 2005)

buzz said:
			
		

> I know, I know... Just the principle of the thing gets my dander up.  :\




Hey now. This is a grandma-friendly board. Take your "dander upping" potty-mouth elsewhere.


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## DonTadow (Jun 9, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> exactly.
> 
> the now new page doesn't have to be the last one.
> 
> it could be placed anywhere in the mag. and place monte's as the last one.



I like the idea of placing monte's as the last one.   Perhaps do it like I've seen in some magazines.  Put a catchy article on the last page and have the jump come before.  It's unconventional but it works sometimes.   The centerfold map thing is a great idea.. I hope Eric is still reading, quick someone else say something negative to drag him back so we can pitch more of our ideas.


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## reveal (Jun 9, 2005)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> I like the idea of placing monte's as the last one.   Perhaps do it like I've seen in some magazines.  Put a catchy article on the last page and have the jump come before.  It's unconventional but it works sometimes.   The centerfold map thing is a great idea.. I hope Eric is still reading, quick someone else say something negative to drag him back so we can pitch more of our ideas.




You, sir, are a boob.


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## DonTadow (Jun 9, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> They be us Buzz. They be us...
> 
> On a more serious note, perhaps it's simply because few people found the information Will wrote lively or interesting and that he's a celebrity of... well, he's not Bradd Pitt, and his fame is for a character many people hated with a passion.
> 
> And just because people are vocal about not liking Will, doesn't make them bad people overall. You'll not find any previous post of me badmouthing him or anything. No sending of hate mail. I just wasn't interested in him but I can see where others might've taken it to the next step.



I think it was more so that a majority found it either interesting or didn't care.  It was only the lively bunch of complainers that vocalized anything.  It's sad when you got to consisently say you like something for it to say when all it takes is a few naysayers to get something canned.  

Then again, that is how this country was founded.  Polls around the time of the constitutional signing showed that american's were split in the 30 percents as whether they wanted to be their own country or separte.  20 to 25 percent of people didn't give care. So I guess sometimes a rambunctious minority is good.


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## DonTadow (Jun 9, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> You, sir, are a boob.



No no no.  you have to say something that may test the crediblity of Dungeon magazine as well.  Like me and dungeon magazine are boobs.. geesh he'll never come back at this rate.


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## EricNoah (Jun 9, 2005)

^^ Not negative enough I'm afraid!


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## Simplicity (Jun 9, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> You, sir, are a boob.




How DARE you...  I demand an apology on the behalf of all ENWorlders for your insensitivity.  Or else the moderators will ban you and dance on your empty shell of a message board account.


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## Tortoise (Jun 9, 2005)

I suppose it's time to toss in my 2 coppers worth on the subject.

Like a number of other people, I too have opened the magazine to the back for the purpose of reading Wil's column before reading anything else in Dungeon. 

I would like to also echo that this is because it was not only written from the heart, and written well, but because it wasn't only about D&D.

Wil's column will be sorely missed. Shame on the haters, and shame on Mr. Mona for listening only to a narrow group of posters instead of reaching out to the larger community as he has done in the past.


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## DaveMage (Jun 9, 2005)

All hail boobs!

(Or, did I misinterpret something...      )


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## DonTadow (Jun 9, 2005)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> All hail boobs!
> 
> (Or, did I misinterpret something...      )



::shakes head disappointedly::


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## Asmo (Jun 9, 2005)

I´ll miss Wil´s column, that´s for sure.

Asmo


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## DaveMage (Jun 9, 2005)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> ::shakes head disappointedly::




What can I say - it's been a long thread...


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## the Lorax (Jun 9, 2005)

I liked Wil Save.  
It was usually the first thing I read (rather than just scanned through) when I got the new issue in the mail.  

I too would rather see Downer go that Wil Save, but I suppose thats not really the issue here, because there isn't a choice being offered.

I trust Erik Mona enough that I believe that whatever replaces the article will be of some use or intrest.

Just because I dont care for Downer, and would rather not see it inside my Dungeon issue, does not mean that it is not something of interest - news.

Indicating that suicide would be "interesting" in any way is clearly unsettling at best and revolting at worst.

For what its worth.


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## DonTadow (Jun 9, 2005)

Back to the subject 

When will this take place?  I would think that a few Dungeon magazines are probably complete and Will had some columns already in the bag?


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## JoeGKushner (Jun 9, 2005)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> I think it was more so that a majority found it either interesting or didn't care.  It was only the lively bunch of complainers that vocalized anything.  It's sad when you got to consisently say you like something for it to say when all it takes is a few naysayers to get something canned.
> 
> Then again, that is how this country was founded.  Polls around the time of the constitutional signing showed that american's were split in the 30 percents as whether they wanted to be their own country or separte.  20 to 25 percent of people didn't give care. So I guess sometimes a rambunctious minority is good.




But this is true on a number of areas.

Speak out against something that's "in", such as the Dixie Chicks did, and those who should support you because you're claiming you don't like the same things as they do, will leave you high and dry. As the Chicks and many actors were.


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## Henry (Jun 9, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> ^^ Not negative enough I'm afraid!




We could always bring back that "Smackin' Mona Around" idea of yours... 

I have to say that, and Erik's _"God-Tyrant of Dungeon"_, are the two funniest things I've seen here in a week.


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## Mark (Jun 9, 2005)

_It's the age old struggle of two clans battling for the right to spell their name with either a "c" or a "k"..._


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## diaglo (Jun 9, 2005)

Mark said:
			
		

> _It's the age old struggle of two clans battling for the right to spell their name with either a "c" or a "k"..._



don't forget the "q" contingent.

diaglo "coq sportif" Ooi


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## Banshee16 (Jun 9, 2005)

buzz said:
			
		

> This thread makes me sad for two reasons.
> 
> 1. I really liked Wil's column. To add to the chorus, it's the first thing I read each month.
> 
> ...




You can't please all of the people all of the time....but you can please some of the people some of the time.  And the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

I'm not saying I was a huge fan of the column.....but I didn't dislike it either.  I did read it when I got Dungeon mag.

Unfortunately, the people who complained evidently got the attention.  Maybe if they put another gaming article in there, those of us who want a bit more than crunch should right in and complain that there are not enough editorials 

Banshee


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## reveal (Jun 9, 2005)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> No no no.  you have to say something that may test the crediblity of Dungeon magazine as well.  Like me and dungeon magazine are boobs.. geesh he'll never come back at this rate.




You sir, uh, have man boobs. 


How's that?


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## reveal (Jun 9, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> don't forget the "q" contingent.
> 
> diaglo "coq sportif" Ooi




F*q the "q" contingent.


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## DonTadow (Jun 9, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> You sir, uh, have man boobs.
> 
> 
> How's that?



almost there but not quite.


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## EricNoah (Jun 9, 2005)

I think you mean the Q Continuum, don't you?

***

On a more serious note, I see the writing on the wall.  It's time for me to step up and offer to write the replacement column for Wil Save.  My column will be called You Save, and it will feature tips on how to get the best bang for your buck.  

You have been warned.


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## DaveMage (Jun 9, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> My column... ...will feature tips on how to get the best bang for your buck.




Would your grandmother approve of this?


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## Banshee16 (Jun 9, 2005)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> That's not a great counterpoint. The vast majority of people simply aren't good enough at writing to have a column of any kind.




Bingo.  I'd say that most people are only great writers in their own minds.  I have to admit that I kind of got into reading Wil's column.  It's not Shakespeare, but there were some funny parts 

I don't know why it is....I just find some gamers take themselves way too seriously...and in an environment like the Internet, it makes for some people expressing visceral, insulting views.  From what I understand, companies often consider input received as being indicative of a larger number of people with the same feedback, but who didn't both expressing it.  So, basically, the complainers were listened to, and the hypothetical contented majority (if it exists) is now going to be disserved.

Again, this is hypothetical...I can't get in Erik's head, so I have no inside information on what actually happened.

I do think that having a celebrity, however minor his status, writing about the hobby is actually rather interesting.  It can be good coverage, and a display of a normal, well-adjusted gamer, who is not 30 years old and living in his mom's basement, which appears to be the stereotype which is being perpetrated in mainstream media.

Banshee


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## Mark (Jun 9, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> On a more serious note, I see the writing on the wall.  It's time for me to step up and offer to write the replacement column for Wil Save.  My column will be called You Save, and it will feature tips on how to get the best bang for your buck.
> 
> You have been warned.





_Call it "*EN*dure" and make it about how to keep characters alive..._


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## reveal (Jun 9, 2005)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> Would your grandmother approve of this?




You an I think _way_ too much alike.


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## reveal (Jun 9, 2005)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> almost there but not quite.




You, sir, are a   who likes to  and  and  your  with a  tire iron, you   .

I sure hope the filter catches all that.


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## Erik Mona (Jun 9, 2005)

Tortoise said:
			
		

> and shame on Mr. Mona for listening only to a narrow group of posters instead of reaching out to the larger community as he has done in the past.




If I could respond appropriately to this call for shame I would probably be banned, and I would no doubt lose readers and a lot of people's respect.

You have no idea what went on behind the scenes of the column. The column was MY IDEA, and I edited every single one of them. I worked with Wil to make the column a better fit for the magazine (it's not a poker magazine), and he responded well to the editorial input.

After he decided to step away due to over-commitment and negative reader feedback, I tried very hard to save the column, and am more disappointed than you that the column is no longer in the magazine.

And for this I should be ashamed?

I think not, sir.

--Erik


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## DonTadow (Jun 9, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> You, sir, are a   who likes to  and  and  your  with a  tire iron, you   .
> 
> I sure hope the filter catches all that.



See you did it, he's back to the boards.  Now if only we can get him to read the ideas instead of all this senseless dribbling filler.


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## Mark (Jun 9, 2005)

_Goodnight, Moon..._


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## DonTadow (Jun 9, 2005)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> If I could respond appropriately to this call for shame I would probably be banned, and I would no doubt lose readers and a lot of people's respect.
> 
> You have no idea what went on behind the scenes of the column. The column was MY IDEA, and I edited very single one of them. I worked with Wil to make the column a better fit for the magazine (it's not a poker magazine), and he responded well to the editorial input.
> 
> ...




Erik... you've had a hard week.  We want you to know we appreciate your work and we understand you put in your best effort to save it.  I think that was pretty much determined a few pages ago but I don't think tortoise read those posts.   I think we should really concentrate this thread on what we can do, which is suggest ideas for what we'd like to see replace it.  It might not go anywhere but its more creative than bashing Erik, or bashing Will or bashing dungeons current content.


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## Ketjak (Jun 9, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Run Jdvn1, you're attempts to 'back peddle' for me will only wind up getting you flamed.




Does that mean he's selling your products retroactively?

"JoeGKushner is a jerk!"


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## Henry (Jun 9, 2005)

You know, despite attempts to lighten the thread up in tone and turn it more positive, it really hasn't helped, given the negative impact of the thread's earlier discussion. There are already two other Dungeon threads, HERE and HERE that discuss Dungeon's other content, and what additions people would like to see.

I'm going to close this thread, and suggest that people focus their attentions in these two threads, because Wil is no longer creating the column, and it's really a dead issue because he has no intention of doing otherwise. rather than invite any more flames, I'm closing this thread now. Erik, my sentiments with DonTadow, and I'm sorry the column didn't work out.

-Henry


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