# Help with a summoner build



## Borthos (Mar 18, 2011)

I'm going to make a summoner, either for a  future encounter with my PCs, or for a friend's game.  I've always  wanted to try one out, but I'm kind of lost with where to take it.  I  don't want to just run with it because I'll probably make a crap eidolon  with an even crappier summoner, so I come here for advice. 



I don't want a mount, I know that much, but I don't know which is  better; natural or manufactured weapons, and which form/build has a  higher dpr:survivability ratio.  I don't want a nova eidolon, but more  of a tank who can keep up with damage from the rest of the party.


Can you guys shed some light for me?
I'll probably start a build around 4-5 level for a PC, but a level 10 build and steps to get there would be helpful also.  Thanks!


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## Set (Mar 19, 2011)

Since the eidolon is an NPC, you'll only be getting 1/2 it's HD in hit points (5.5 ish), so Toughness will be essential for that first level (and handy for the rest of them).

I prefer the quadruped, to be able to take advantage of pounce, and eventually assume a draconic form with wings and maybe a breath weapon.  Elemental attacks, to add +1d6 damage to each melee attack, is pretty awesome, although you might want to think about what sort of elemental damage makes sense for your character, so that you don't end up spending four levels talking up your Eidolon as an immature red dragonling critter, only to discover that you're facing far too many fire resistant creatures and would rather take acid or electrical or cold damage for your elemental attacks.  Leave some wiggle room in the flavor, so that you don't feel like you're abandoning flavor for mechanical benefit when you find it necessary to tweak your build in an unplanned direction.

That's a huge thing, being able to reshape your Eidolon every level, and take on abilities that seem like they will be beneficial in the direction the game is headed.  Too tight of a 'theme' might make it awkward and 'meta-game-y' feeling to adjust your Eidolon in this fashion, and end up cheating yourself out of a valuable class ability.

I've seen some good use of the bipedal Eidolon as well, but they almost always end up having four to six sword-wielding arms and looking like a Hindu diety.  The best use of bipeds was in early Beta when they could wear armor, and that's a thing of the past.  

Except for the Iconic, Balthazar, and his chicken-snake-thing, I haven't seen a whole lot of love for the Serpentine body type.

The _grease_ spell is one of the best 1st level Summoner spells.  Learn to love it.  You'll end up with Spell Focus (conjuration) as a prereq for Augment Summon, so conjuration spells like _grease_ and _create pit_ and _black tentacles_ will have a bit more shelf life.  The Summoner is pretty good at control effects, so you may want to do what you can to enhance that (carrying tanglefoot bags, caltrops and / or alchemist's fire to throw at people in pits or stuck in _grease_ can be fun as well, to add injury to insult).  Summoners don't have a bunch of attack spells, and it's probably best to focus on buffs, debuffs and control spells.  _Haste_, _slow_, etc. are great spells for your summoner and his allies (summoned and otherwise), while either the Eidolon or summoned monsters handle the DPS.

Don't be at all afraid of your Eidolon dying.  The Summon Monster SLAs are amazingly powerful (particularly if you've got Augment Summons), and after some aggravation with how quickly the Eidolon ended up dying *in every single combat,* I came to see it as a blessing, as the Summoned Monsters are no slouch, and cast as a standard action and last 10 times as long as they would have if you were some lame conjuration specialist wizard.

Life Link was designed by committee.  Your Eidolon won't die until it reaches -Con in hit points (13 or so), and, at 1st level, attempting to use Life Link to save it will leave it *still* at negative hit points, and you now at negative hit points yourself.  You could, quite easily, kill yourself, and not manage to revive your Eidolon (which will disappear when you drop yourself unconscious trying to stop it from disappearing, perversely).

The language I would use to describe how wonderful Life Link is can't be used on a family-friendly website.  

Note that the Eidolon does not have the empathic link that a druid has with his companion, and you cannot give it directions silently as a free action.  Since it's relatively smart, and understands any language you speak, pick something rare or obscure to give verbal instructions to your Eidolon without announcing to the entire world what it's going to do in any given round.  I tend to pick Draconic, but some elemental language, Infernal or Celestial all make sense, since you might need to verbally instruct summoned celestials or devils or elementals at some point as well.

Celestial and fiendish critters in Pathfinder do not speak or understand celestial or infernal/abyssal, and do not have Int 3, as in 3.5, so summoned celestial/fiendish animals are never going to be able to do anything other than attack the foe in front of them, which, thankfully, they do without instruction.  Summon spells are *much* less versatile, due to this lack of any real control, than they were in 3.5.  Don't expect to be able to summon a celestial monkey and order it to climb a wall and unlatch a second-story window, or climb a tree and unhook the snare-line that's got your fighter hanging by his ankle.

Nor are celestial or fiendish critters good or evil in Pathfiinder.  They might be able to *smite* evil or good, but they have no alignment type themselves and remain neutral, so don't expect to be able to send your celestial dog to smite the enemy conjurers fiendish wolves, because the fiendish wolves are neutral wolves from hell.


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## paradox42 (Mar 19, 2011)

Set said:


> Since the eidolon is an NPC, you'll only be getting 1/2 it's HD in hit points (5.5 ish),



This rule only applies to Pathfinder Society, doesn't it? There's nothing I've ever seen in the Core book about it. And every GM I know (including me) just rolls hit points for NPCs like anything else. The thing NPCs don't get, but that PCs do, is max hp on the 1st level/hit die.



Set said:


> Note that the Eidolon does not have the empathic link that a druid has  with his companion, and you cannot give it directions silently as a free  action.



Actually, what the Eidolon has is *better* than an Empathic Link, *because* the Eidolon can think and speak on its own. Check out PFSRD.com:


			
				Eidolon section of the Summoner class page said:
			
		

> *Link (Ex):* A summoner and his eidolon share a mental link allows for communication across any distance (as long as they are on the same plane). This communication is a free action, allowing the summoner to give orders to his eidolon at any time. In addition, magic items interfere with the summoner’s connection to his eidolon. As a result, the summoner and his eidolon share magic item slots. For example, if the summoner is wearing a ring, his eidolon can wear no more than one ring. In case of a conf lict, the items worn by the summoner remain active, and those used by the eidolon become dormant. The eidolon must possess the appropriate appendages to utilize a magic item.



So you can not only give directions to the Eidolon across any distance, you can also *talk* to it, and (for instance) use it as a scout that can report back to you telepathically.

I haven't built a Summoner yet myself, so I can't offer experienced advice to the OP here, but I have been considering one for some time- and done detailed and careful reading of the various rules involved in the process, looking for edges to use. 



Set said:


> You'll end up with Spell Focus (conjuration) as a prereq for Augment Summon, so conjuration spells like _grease_ and _create pit_ and _black tentacles_ will have a bit more shelf life.



This, for example, is an edge I missed. Augment Summoning is just obvious for use with the spell-like _Summon_ ability, but the fact that you need Spell Focus to get it- and what Spell Focus does on its own- I just plain forgot about and didn't really notice before. Great catch, and great advice! _Grease_ does indeed rock when you  have a decent save DC, and having a higher DC for one's  battlefield-control spells later on is always a Good Thing (for you,  anyway, hopefully not the enemy).

I had one idea for a Serpentine Eidolon concept, that's a really weird one- it's completely untested as yet and I'm not sure how well it would work out in play. The idea is, the Eidolon is a "Monster Book of Monsters" like that crazy textbook in _Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban_ (book or movie doesn't matter, it's in both). You wouldn't intend the Eidolon to really do much combat in its own right; it'd be more of a scout and skill-helper. Give it as many Ability Increase (INT) Evolutions as allowed for your level, put its ability-point increases for HD into INT, and make sure its four free class skills are Knowledge skills that can be used to learn about other monsters. Then max out those Knowledge skills, make judicious use of the Skilled Evolution for those specific Knowledge skills, and you have a scout that knows everything about the enemy it sees before the party even gets close to it. The idea is, the Eidolon looks like a living book, and can always open itself up to the right page to detail whatever it is the Summoner is currently looking at.

I know it's not what the OP asked for in terms of a combative Eidolon capable of dishing out high DPR, but it *is* an idea I'd like to try sometime.


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## Set (Mar 19, 2011)

paradox42 said:


> Actually, what the Eidolon has is *better* than an Empathic Link, *because* the Eidolon can think and speak on its own. Check out PFSRD.com:




Oh wow, that's *so* much better than what's I saw printed in the APG!

Edit: Ah, found it. It's under the Eidolon, not the Summoner! I was using the rules under the Summoner, and didn't see that there were different rules a few pages later! My bad.


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## paradox42 (Mar 19, 2011)

Set said:


> Oh wow, that's *so* much better than what's I saw printed in the APG!
> 
> Edit: Ah, found it. It's under the Eidolon, not the Summoner! I was using the rules under the Summoner, and didn't see that there were different rules a few pages later! My bad.



Yeah, the Summoner entry isn't really very well organized for ease of reading. Given how important the Eidolon is, though, I'm not sure how else they could have done it to make comprehension easier. Back-and-forth flipping is the price to pay for a really unique class concept, I suppose.


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## Borthos (Mar 19, 2011)

Yeah, we don't play PFS, so he'll probably let me rule HP for my guy like an animal companion, not an NPC.  Because of the partial HD progression, how good are Eidolons at tanking?  I mean could I just ramp up his con and my con and take damage out the wazoo while still being bale to deal out respectable damage?  I found the summoner's handbook on GiantITP and I'm thinking of running the Swallow Whole Eidolon build.  And then make sure it has some control capabilities, trip/disarm/etc.  How do you guys think that would work out?  Too much to spread out and not focusing enough? or just right?


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## Dingo333 (Mar 20, 2011)

For my eidolon, I typically go quadruped

for its attacks, I find after its free bite, I buy a lot of tentacles, you get the evo improv dmg tentacles, the feat improv dmg tentacles, reach with tentacles, and you have a spaghetti monster smacking everything on the field. I am not sure what level you are looking at but once you reach lvl 9 he gains multi attack 7+str bite, 5+str tentacles. If you are worried about damage output, he is basicaly wielding 4 longswords at lvl 9 with a 10 foot reach. Magic attack and energy attack are great evolutions, increasing dmg output and bypassing DR. If you are worried because your DM throws varrious immunities at you all the time, use lesser evo surge to give him elemental attacks on the fly. As for size, I would stay with medium, if you are underground, the 2d6 tentacles may sound fun, but doorways wont be, above ground, stealth is the only issue so it depends on the situation.

Grab and constrict are a nice combo, and when you have 7 tentacles, you wont care if one is tyed up squeezing a foe as the foe is also preoccupied.

Web and breath weapons are nice if you are facing ranged enemies as your eidolon wont have to worry as much about reaching the foes.

If worried about it taking damage, get lots of con, as this also helps its web, breath weapon and poison (tied to the free bite evo).

A big spell to remember is Evolution surge, basically gain situationally useful evolutions on the fly, allows you more flexibility in creation and still be able to crush in pigeon hole situations.


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## Papa-DRB (Mar 20, 2011)

*Summoner Handbook*

[3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner - Giant in the Playground Forums

-- david
Papa.DRB


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## jefgorbach (Mar 20, 2011)

"In addition, magic items interfere with the summoner’s connection to his eidolon. As a result, *the summoner and his eidolon share magic item slots*. For example, if the summoner is wearing a ring, his eidolon can wear no more than one ring. In case of a conflict, the items worn by the summoner remain active, and those used by the eidolon become dormant." 

So that means the eidolon gets the benefits of whatever magical gear the Summoner is wearing (and vice-versa), correct??


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## Mojo_Rat (Mar 20, 2011)

it means if you have magical bracers that your eidolon cannot also have them


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