# New 44-Page Elements of Magic (Revised) Preview!



## Morrus

Rangerwickett has finished putting together a new, 44 page preview of the sequel to _The Elements of Magic_.  

You'll find it by heading over to the (newly improved) EN Publishing website.  Let us know what you think!

(Oh, and while you're there, feel free to buy something else from EN Publishing's fabulous collection of super-duper products!)


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## RangerWickett

Oh, Russ, could you include a link to this thread so people can discuss the teaser?  Since it is an abridged version, I'm sure there'll be questions.


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## Dalamar

Looks great!

And now that we've gotten over that , to the points that jumped out at me. In bold is the section which the question stems from when progressing from the start of the teaser, even if some of the questions refer to material in multiple sections.

*Magical boons:* Do the _energy resistance_ boons stack with each other? 
*Signature Spells:* When can a character choose to change their signature spells, every day, level... ? The teaser for _Lyceian arcana_ implies that they can be changed by saying that a member of that tradition must keep one constant.
*Elemental subtypes:* Why don't creatures of the plant type have [Nature] type instead of [Life]? Also, summoned elementals are not treated as outsiders for purposes of banishing, they are [Extraplanar].
*Friendly Elements:* Is the energy resistance granted a total of 5 points in a round against the element and friendly elements, or 5 points each. Also, why do you go on your way to make energy resistance work the way it worked in 3.0 if this is supposed to update EoM to 3.5? Lastly, the second paragraph on this subject ends prematurely.
*Opposed Elements:* This is, essentially, the Vulnerability to Energy special quality of the core rules, why is it not referenced as such?
*General enhancements, duration (concentration):* Is there no limit to how long a mage can keep concentrating? This could result in _very_ high-duration effects in a pinch (need to ride that dire wolf for a day and don't have enough MP to increase duration? Charm Animal with a concentration duration and couple of Concentration skill checks and you're dandy). 
Can the _Weather_ enhancement of Create Air be used if you have a duration of concentration? The letter of the rules say no, but the spirit would seem to be a working concenpt.
*Abjure Nature AC bonus:* +11 Deflection bonus for 1 minute for the BBEG fight? Sign me in. Make that a +15 bonus if you know the BBEG's alignment! Why does the bonus get so high when in the core rules you can't get a Deflection bonus higher than +5 before getting into epic equipment?
*Create Element, Elemental Object:* What kind of proficiency is it to use a weapon made from elemental force, the standard for a weapon it 'looks' like? The same with damage. Also, Elemental Object enhancement mentions that it does damage, but the Elemental Weapon says "...or you can choose it in addition to the elemental object enhancement, above, to create a weapon of pure damaging energy". Shouldn't that be "...to create a more damaging weapon of energy"?
*Create Element, Enduring Object (Life):* So I need this to magically create a peg leg?
*Create Nature:* Can this be used to create corpses (they were once living)?
*Evoke Death, Infect enhancement:* So I can infect mummy rot with this?
*Evoke Death, Negative Level enhancement:* Why can the target only lose a single level even if it has gained 5 negative levels from a single spell while in core rules (if my memory serves) you make a save for each level separately?
*Evoke Fire, Elemental side effects:* Should the damage done to an item by its own burning ignore hardness and the normal halving rule that is in effect with objects?
*Evoke Nature, elemental side effects:* "The damage is considered magical for the purposes of overcoming DR." Wouldn't this sound better as "The damage penetrates DR as if it was a magic weapon"? 
The text doesn't say that you can choose which damage type (piercing, slashing or bludgeoning) the damage does, but implies that by saying that Evoke Earth only does bludgeoning damage. As the caster meant to be able to choose which type of damage to deal?
*Heal, Cure Affliction enhancement:* Maybe change the end to "...heal afflictions with the same cost that Evoke Death causes them"? It took me a while to realise that's what it meant.
*Illusion, enhancements:* While there are no skill checks to smell something, could the bonus not be applied to the Wisdom check that creature with Scent make?
*Infuse with Element, Enhance Ability Score:* Why does the Enhancement bonus to an ability score go up to +14? The greatsword wielding, Power Attacking barbarian is going to like this. Just Power Attack the gained to-hit bonus away for a total bonus of +24 (1,5*7+2*7) to damage per swing.
*Infuse with Force, Enhance Attack:* +10 Enhancement bonus to all heads of that 12-headed hydra or that Colossal dragon? Ouch. 
*Move Force:* What is the effective size for performing special maneouvers with this spell?
*Transform Creature, Stronger Creature enhancement:* Why does this not simply use the Swarm rules from the revised MM instead of allowing possible abuse of turning into a group of selves to cast _a lot_ of spells in a round?

Whew, I think that's all for the time being.


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## gpetruc

The teaser is very nice, and I hope the full version comes out quickly.

There are two possible typos that I wanted to point out:

in the beginning, talking about energy esistances:


> Note that friendly elements don’t always match both ways.  You are protected against your friendly elements, but they are not necessarily protected against you.  For instance, acid has the friendly element metal,



the sentence does not end ...

In the transform


> Stronger Creature (varies).  If you an object or creature into a creature with a Challenge Rating of more than 1, and if the CR is higher than the original CR, you must choose this enhancement.




You've probably left out the word transform: "If you [transform+ and object or creature ..."

Anyway, really a great work.


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## RangerWickett

gpetruc said:
			
		

> The teaser is very nice, and I hope the full version comes out quickly.
> 
> There are two possible typos that I wanted to point out:
> 
> Anyway, really a great work.




Answering this one is shorter and easier, so I'll do it first.

The energy resistance one is a typo.  One of the last problems we noticed was that, well, earth, crystal, metal, and nature don't _do_ energy damage, they do physical damage, so I went in and swapped out a few resistances here and there, and I missed that one.  Thanks for pointing it out.

Ditto for the Transform line.  I noticed that yesterday myself.

I'm thrilled that you guys like it, and I hope you won't hesitate to point out any last minute mistakes.  Though we've been working and playtesting these rules for about six months, nothing beats having a few hundred new people tearing through your work.


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## RangerWickett

This is a bit longer of a reply, but I'm glad you pointed a few of these out to me.  A lot of them are just the result that we trimmed a lot out for the teaser, so the answers are in the full text, but I'll answer you here for fullness's sake.

*Magical boons:* Do the _energy resistance_ boons stack with each other? 
Very little stacks in this system, with the main exceptions being Evoke and Heal damage and curing.  I'll add in a short line to each of the energy resistance boons (and the greater animagus one) to say that if you pick a higher-powered boon for the same element, you can swap out your old boon for something else.

*Signature Spells:* When can a character choose to change their signature spells, every day, level... ? The teaser for _Lyceian arcana_ implies that they can be changed by saying that a member of that tradition must keep one constant.
Changing your signature spells is doable no more than once per game session, and takes your character 8 hours.  The specifics of the ritual, study, procedure, etc. are left up to you and the GM to determine, but since signature spells are designed to speed up the game, we suggest a limit of only changing them between game sessions.  Of course, if you have a weird session, where the first half is one day, and the second half is two months later, your GM should let you change your spells, but players are encouraged to have the new spells pre-written.

*Elemental subtypes:* Why don't creatures of the plant type have [Nature] type instead of [Life]? Also, summoned elementals are not treated as outsiders for purposes of banishing, they are [Extraplanar].
Nature only applies to inanimate biomatter objects.  Nothing does 'nature damage,' since nature is not actually an energy type.  As for the extraplanar thing, that must've been one of the 3.5 changes I glossed over.  I'll take a look at that; is it a big deal?

*Friendly Elements:* Is the energy resistance granted a total of 5 points in a round against the element and friendly elements, or 5 points each. Also, why do you go on your way to make energy resistance work the way it worked in 3.0 if this is supposed to update EoM to 3.5? Lastly, the second paragraph on this subject ends prematurely.
Huh.  That's another 3.5 change I missed.  In 3.0 it was a per-round resistance.  Well then, I'll fix that.    As for the second paragraph ending prematurely, that's addressed above.  It was an error in snipping.

*Opposed Elements:* This is, essentially, the Vulnerability to Energy special quality of the core rules, why is it not referenced as such?
Just a different choice of terminology.  I didn't think to use that term, but I'll include it in the final version.

*General enhancements, duration (concentration):* Is there no limit to how long a mage can keep concentrating? This could result in _very_ high-duration effects in a pinch (need to ride that dire wolf for a day and don't have enough MP to increase duration? Charm Animal with a concentration duration and couple of Concentration skill checks and you're dandy). 
Can the _Weather_ enhancement of Create Air be used if you have a duration of concentration? The letter of the rules say no, but the spirit would seem to be a working concenpt.
Of course, the problem is that, if you get distracted while concentrating, you've got a Dire Wolf trying to eat you.  If you want to devote all your attention to a single spell so that it has a long duration, you're welcome to it.  It could be broken if you hire a bunch of weenie wizards to cast Infuse spells on you to boost your abilities, then just concentrate for an entire day while you go off hacking at monsters, but generally I don't see it as a problem.  As for the Weather enhancement, I'll change it so it says the weather takes 10 minutes to manifest, so if the spell ends early, you're out of luck.  Concentrating will be viable.

*Abjure Nature AC bonus:* +11 Deflection bonus for 1 minute for the BBEG fight? Sign me in. Make that a +15 bonus if you know the BBEG's alignment! Why does the bonus get so high when in the core rules you can't get a Deflection bonus higher than +5 before getting into epic equipment?
This is an effect of how the system is different from the core rules.  Now, Abjure Nature is supposed to provide an enhancement bonus to AC, whereas Force and everything else provides a deflection bonus, with force being even less than Nature.  I see that's one of the things missing.  (p.s., collaborative book-writing can get confusing sometimes)

In this system, there are still only a few sources of AC-boosting.  Abjure is the primary one, Infuse Air for Dexterity increases also works, and finally you could use Transform to turn yourself into some nasty creature with high AC.

It's all a sort of rock-paper-scissors proposition.  If you cast a spell that provides super high AC, then you haven't provided any protection from spells.  If you know you're about to fight the Tarrasque, feel free to toss on +11 AC to defend against it, but usually you'd have something that grants some AC, some save bonuses, and some energy resistance.  And mind you, these are 20-MP spells we're talking about.  20th level characters regularly do things that seem ridiculously powerful, but since both sides are doing it, it balances out.

In the field of magic items, it's possible to have +10 Full Plate with +10 deflection (total AC is +28), for the reasonable price of 801,650gp.  That sort of stuff works fine for epic level games, but the more fighter common equipment we ended up defaulting to in our playtests is +6 Full Plate for 50,650gp, +5 deflection item for 49,000gp, a +5 saves item for 25,000gp, an energy resistance 10 (everything) item for 25,000gp, a +5 keen ghost touch weapon of some sort that does +2d6 force damage for ~100,000gp, two items for +6 Dex and Con for 72,000gp, one +10 Str item for 144,000gp, and then incidental other items.  When you have that, sure, the mage can shell out 20 MP to give you a +5 AC bonus for one minute (since the bonus doesn't stack, it just replaces what the armor grants).

*Create Element, Elemental Object:* What kind of proficiency is it to use a weapon made from elemental force, the standard for a weapon it 'looks' like? The same with damage. Also, Elemental Object enhancement mentions that it does damage, but the Elemental Weapon says "...or you can choose it in addition to the elemental object enhancement, above, to create a weapon of pure damaging energy". Shouldn't that be "...to create a more damaging weapon of energy"?
An elemental object is just like a normal object of that type, except niftier looking, and if you hit someone with a fire longsword, it does 1d8 points of fire damage instead of 1d8 points of normal damage.

The wording is a little off there.  For an example, if you create an elemental flame longsword that has the 2 MP elemental damage enhancement (a 4 MP spell), it'd do 1d8+2d6+Str points of fire damage per hit.

*Create Element, Enduring Object (Life):* So I need this to magically create a peg leg?
Well, I was thinking more along the lines of food.  A pegleg isn't actually part of the creature.  It's just an item.

*Create Nature:* Can this be used to create corpses (they were once living)?
It can, yes, but more commony it'll create wooden objects, things made of shell, etc.

*Evoke Death, Infect enhancement:* So I can infect mummy rot with this?
I don't know of any spell that causes mummy rot.  It's not a disease; it's a curse.  So no.

*Evoke Death, Negative Level enhancement:* Why can the target only lose a single level even if it has gained 5 negative levels from a single spell while in core rules (if my memory serves) you make a save for each level separately?
Oh, that's a typo.  You still save for each negative level.

*Evoke Fire, Elemental side effects:* Should the damage done to an item by its own burning ignore hardness and the normal halving rule that is in effect with objects?
I'm not quite sure what you're asking here.

*Evoke Nature, elemental side effects:* "The damage is considered magical for the purposes of overcoming DR." Wouldn't this sound better as "The damage penetrates DR as if it was a magic weapon"? 
The text doesn't say that you can choose which damage type (piercing, slashing or bludgeoning) the damage does, but implies that by saying that Evoke Earth only does bludgeoning damage. As the caster meant to be able to choose which type of damage to deal?
I'll use the 'magic weapon' statement.

Evoke Nature does just damage, nonelemental and nonspecific of slashing/piercing/bludgeoning.

*Heal, Cure Affliction enhancement:* Maybe change the end to "...heal afflictions with the same cost that Evoke Death causes them"? It took me a while to realise that's what it meant.
It's spelled out in the full text.  I trimmed for space in the teaser.

*Illusion, enhancements:* While there are no skill checks to smell something, could the bonus not be applied to the Wisdom check that creature with Scent make?
I'll look into it.

*Infuse with Element, Enhance Ability Score:* Why does the Enhancement bonus to an ability score go up to +14? The greatsword wielding, Power Attacking barbarian is going to like this. Just Power Attack the gained to-hit bonus away for a total bonus of +24 (1,5*7+2*7) to damage per swing.
There are more efficient ways to kill things with magic than to buff a warrior buddy.  The power attacking barbarian _should_ like this, if that's the way you want to use your spells.

*Infuse with Force, Enhance Attack:* +10 Enhancement bonus to all heads of that 12-headed hydra or that Colossal dragon? Ouch. 
Indeed.  Have you read the 'I killed the lich queen of the Githyanki in one round' thread?  If you manage to have a giant reptilian ally or try to summon and charm one, then buff it, enjoy it.  That's the kind of crazy stuff high level characters do.

*Move Force:* What is the effective size for performing special maneouvers with this spell?
Oh, I did forget to include that.  It's Medium.

*Transform Creature, Stronger Creature enhancement:* Why does this not simply use the Swarm rules from the revised MM instead of allowing possible abuse of turning into a group of selves to cast _a lot_ of spells in a round?
If you turn into several creatures, one keeps your mind; the others are just creatures.  So you could have one 10th level wizard human and a bunch of commoner humans.  There is a high-level option that lets you duplicate a low-level version of yourself, but that's complicated, so I won't get into it here.


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## Dalamar

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> As for the extraplanar thing, that must've been one of the 3.5 changes I glossed over.  I'll take a look at that; is it a big deal?



I'll make rules quotes on this to make it clearer, both to myself and anybody that happens to read it. First, the start of the description for extraplanar subtype (found at p. 309 of MM): _"A subtype applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane. This book assumes that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have when on its home plane)."_
Then the beginning of the Dismissal spell (the little brother of Banishment): _This spell forces an extraplanar creature back to its proper plane if it fails a special Will save..."_
So being banished has nothing to do with being an outsider, it has to do with the target being on a different plane than its home plane. So you can be dismissed back to the Material if you are in the Abyss (since you would then have the extraplanar subtype).


> Huh.  That's another 3.5 change I missed.  In 3.0 it was a per-round resistance.  Well then, I'll fix that.



 You might want to check the energy resistance values with this new information in mind. In 3.0, with Fire Resistance 30, you were immune to one Fireball per round (with average damage). Now, you're immune to _all_ Fireballs that deal average damage or less.







> In the field of magic items, it's possible to...



But would you shell out all that money on those items if you knew that, in a pinch, the mage could give such a big boost to AC? Instead of spending that cash on a Ring of Protection, you buy a (slightly more expensive) Ring of Lucky Defense for a Luck bonus to AC. 







> I don't know of any spell that causes mummy rot.  It's not a disease; it's a curse.  So no.



 If Mummy Rot is a curse, then why is it listed on Table 8-2: Diseases on page 292 of the DMG?







> *Evoke Fire, Elemental side effects:* Should the damage done to an item by its own burning ignore hardness and the normal halving rule that is in effect with objects?
> I'm not quite sure what you're asking here.



 Look at the Harndness of a normal Steel weapon, that's 10. And inanimate objects take half damage from energy attacks. So while you might make a sword burn, it wouldn't actually take any damage because the d6 (halved) has no chance of getting over that Hardness.

And thanks for the answers and explanations, it's always nice to hear the logic behind choices that have been made in regards to mechanics.


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## Matrix Sorcica

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> In the field of magic items, it's possible to have +10 Full Plate with +10 deflection (total AC is +28), for the reasonable price of 801,650gp.  That sort of stuff works fine for epic level games, but the more fighter common equipment we ended up defaulting to in our playtests is +6 Full Plate for 50,650gp, +5 deflection item for 49,000gp, a +5 saves item for 25,000gp, an energy resistance 10 (everything) item for 25,000gp, a +5 keen ghost touch weapon of some sort that does +2d6 force damage for ~100,000gp, two items for +6 Dex and Con for 72,000gp, one +10 Str item for 144,000gp, and then incidental other items.  When you have that, sure, the mage can shell out 20 MP to give you a +5 AC bonus for one minute (since the bonus doesn't stack, it just replaces what the armor grants).




Whaaat??  
These prices for magic items have very little if anything to do with standard core rules pricing. The plate would be around 3 million gp and the keen ghost touch weapon is 200.000 in the core rules.
Does EoM change the costs around for magic items? If so, that may hold me from buying and using the product. The reason for this is that the assumed wealth by lvl for PCs etc and the treasure awarded in published adventures won't represent what a given wealth can afford?

Comments?


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## RangerWickett

A few things get changed around because of the differences in systems.  In EOM, there is no such thing as a luck bonus, divine bonus, or natural armor bonus.  Now, mind you, I don't have the Epic Level Handbook, and couldn't really use its rules for epic magic items anyway because _that_ part is not open content, but the magic item costs do end up being very close to things in the DMG, as long as you stick to the normal +5 limit.

As a basic guideline, for enduring magic items (like stat-boosters, flight items, etc.), take the MP cost of the appropriate spell, add 1 to that, square it, and multiply by 1000gp.  This took an excruciatingly long time to tweak and develop, to make sure that we could directly tie magic items in with the EOM magic system, keep costs at the right level, and keep the spells at the right level.

Now, the issue we get into is that the core rulebooks cap certain effects, but we wanted to avoid that.  I mean, if you want a high-level spell to boost Str or AC, it should be an option.  In the core rulebooks, very few high-level spells provide statistical bonuses.  You can't get a stat mod above +4 in the core spells, can't get an AC bonus much above . . . I think also +4, maybe a bit higher for some of the high-end Cleric spells.  Now, that works fine when you learn individual spells, but a major part of EOM is that a single spell list can go from 0 to 20 MP (0th to 9th level spells), and core rulebook effects of this sort level off after 6 or 7 MP.

So we kept the ability to keep advancing, but at a slower rate.  5 MP gets you +6 Str, but 10 MP only gets you +8; 5 MP gets you a +5 enhancement bonus to a weapon, but 10 MP only gets you +7.  It is possible to make very powerful items, but they're prohibitively expensive.  Now, the cost for that +10 enhancement +10 deflection full plate was actually the cost for +10 enhancement full plate and some other +10 deflection item.  Any given item can only have one spell on it, so you'd have to be a 40th level caster to make a single item with both effects (and it'd cost 1.6 million gp).

The costs for items are really close when you're at modest levels.  +5 full plate is still 25,000gp, +6 stat boost items are still 36,000gp.  The only noticeable change is in weapons, and that's because all attempts to make the weapon costs fit into the same system as everything else and also match the core prices just didn't work.  If you notice, in the core rules, a +2 Sword costs 8000gp, but a +2 Armor costs 4000.  It seemed silly to just say 'double the prices of all weapons,' so we finagled with the pricing of spells and such, and worked it out like this:

+1 sword - 4000gp (conveniently, this is the same cost as for a +2 Str item; both items give you +1 to attack and damage)
+2 sword - 9000gp
+3 sword - 16,000gp
+4 sword - 25,000gp
+5 sword - 36,000gp
+6 sword - 64,000gp
+7 sword - 100,000gp
+8 sword - 169,000gp
+9 sword - 289,000gp

In the core rules, the prices are:
+1 - 2000
+2 - 8000
+3 - 18,000
+4 - 32,000
+5 - 50,000

The cost of the +5 keen ghost touch +2d6 force (fire, etc.) weapon is made from an Infuse Force 5/Infuse Space 2/Create Force 2 spell (total MP cost 9).  Add 1 more for the magic item creation, square and x1000gp, and we get 100,000gp, half of the core price.  If I'd just made it +5 keen, the cost would be 49,000, as opposed to 72,000 core.

Magic items were a sticking point, yes, and after reviewing your points, I'm considering upping the costs for a few spell effects.  Ask me about any other item, though, and it should be pretty close to core.


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## Matrix Sorcica

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> <snip>
> 
> Magic items were a sticking point, yes, and after reviewing your points, I'm considering upping the costs for a few spell effects.  Ask me about any other item, though, and it should be pretty close to core.




If everything but a few spell effects fits nicely, wouldn't it just be possible to tweak the cost of fx weapons arbitrary? For me it is a big problem if material I'm supposed to use isn't immediately compatible with core rules.

Good reasoning btw and I agree (more or less   ).


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## Dalamar

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Magic items were a sticking point, yes, and after reviewing your points, I'm considering upping the costs for a few spell effects.  Ask me about any other item, though, and it should be pretty close to core.



 Why did you change the way that weapons and armor are costed in the first place? I can understand that it was done to make the rules for making them in line with the other permanent items that are made with this system, 
but that makes the item creation rules incompatible with the core rules.

In a campaign that uses mages alongside wizards and clerics, why would you ever buy +1 weapons from a mage, when you could get them with half the price from a wizard? And why would you ever get a weapon with a greater bonus than +2 from the same wizard when the weapons made by the mage are cheaper?

Weapons and armor didn't use the standard way of figuring the right price because if they did, they'd cost a lot more (since Greater Magic Armor/Weapon is a 3rd level spell, a +2 either would cost 3*7(minimum caster level for spells of this level)*1,000gp= 21,000gp in 3.0. Or in 3.5 it would cost 24,000gp since the spell doesn't upgrade so fast).

Really, I'm curious as to why you wanted to bring the weapon/armor enchantment costs in line with effects that duplicate spells straight?


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## RangerWickett

Here is one of the sample characters from the book.

*Tri’ni Gren’eys, Elf Mage 13:* Female elf; CR 13; Medium-size humanoid (elf); HD 13d4+13; hp 47; Init +2 (+2 Dex); Spd  60 ft. (_Wayfarer’s staff_); AC 22 (+3 Dex, +9 _+4 mithral chainmail_); Atk +7/+2 melee (1d6+1, _+2 shortsword_), or +9/+4 ranged (Evoke spells); SA spells; SQ Elvish traits, magical boons; MP 152; AL CG; SV Fort +5, Ref +7, Will +12; Str 8, Dex 16*, Con 12*, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 24*.

*These are modified by magic items.

_Skills, Feats, and Languages:_  Bluff** +20, Concentration +17, Craft (bowmaking) +4, Craft (painting) +4, Knowledge (arcana) +17, Sense Motive** +20, Spellcraft +17; Armor Proficiency (light), Armored Casting, Evoke Specialist, Intense Spell, Iron Will, Quicken Spell, Silent Spell, Still Spell; Common, Elvish, Goblin, Undercommon.

**These are tradition skills.

_Magical Boons:_  Three bonus feats, lightning resistance 5, improved signature spell (Evoke Lightning).

_Spell Lists:_  Abjure Aberration, Abjure Force, Abjure Law, Abjure Lightning, Abjure Nature, Create Air, Create Lightning, Create Nature, Evoke Air, Evoke Chaos, Evoke Force, Evoke Life, Evoke Lightning, Evoke Ooze, Evoke Sound, Illusion Death, Illusion Fire, Illusion Lightning, Illusion Shadow, Illusion Void, Infuse Force, Infuse Lightning, Infuse Nature, Infuse Time, Move Air, Move Fire, Move Force, Move Space, Transform Animal, Transform Earth, Transform Humanoid.

_Equipment:_ _+4 Mithral Chainmail, Shifting Cloak of Charisma +6, +2 shortsword_, ten potions of _healing dose_ (2d6), two potions of _remedy_, potion of _inscrutable invisibility_, two potions of _commanding presence_ (+10 Charisma), _Gloves of Dexterity +4, Wayfarer’s staff, Necklace of Clear Thoughts, Ring of Constitution +2_.

*Itemized Magic Items: (109,930gp)*
Mithral Chainmail with Abjure Nature 3/Gen 1 (20,150gp).
Cloak with Infuse Fire 5/Gen 1 (36,000gp).  Also has unlimited activations of Illusion Shadow 1/Gen 0 that can make the wearer look like someone else at will (2,000 gp).
Shortsword with Infuse Force 2/Gen 1 (9,310 gp).
Ten potions of healing dose, Heal Life 1/Gen 0 (20gp each, 200gp total).
Two potions of remedy, Heal Life 10/Gen 0 (2000gp each, 4000gp total).
Potion of inscrutable invisibility, Illusion Shadow 3/Illusion Lightning 4/Gen 0 (980gp).
Two potions of commanding presence, Infuse Fire 11/Gen 0 (2,420gp each, 4,840gp total).
Gloves with Infuse Air 3/Gen 1 (16,000gp).
Staff with Move Fire 2/Gen 1 to increase base speed by 30 ft. (9,000gp).  Also has 35 MP that it can use to cast Move Space 7/Gen 0 to teleport up to 100 miles.  This is a spell completion item (2450gp).
Necklace with Charm Humanoid 0/Gen 1 so that at any time, the first step of any mental effect on the bearer is negated (1000gp).
Ring with Infuse Life 1/Gen 1 (4000gp).

I'll list her signature spells later.  I just wanted to show the types of gear she has here.


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## Dalamar

Looking at her equipment, every permanent item has Gen 1. Now, I'm completely speculating here, but is that one put on *Duration, Short* to gain some kind of edge in pricing the magic item? Or is that Gen 1 considered the 'add 1' part of creating a permanent magic item?


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## Blue mage for hire2

Hey, I've always wandered, what is the Void element, anyway?
Why would you want a Void element sword, and how do I describe my characters' void spells?  I just can't figure it out.  I can take a stab at it looking at its opposition to Sonic (sound), describing it as........... pure silence.  Pressurized air?  Smothering blasts of..........void?  I just don't have a solid, down-to-earth descrition of the element.  The Dictionary is no help.  Even sudden gusts of wind that hit you like a ton of bricks or razor sharp winds describe air damage without offically knocking back anything but the tiniest insects, so what about void?  Even FF5's villain Ex-death's Void power (black balls of total nothingness that suck up reality) doesn't seem to fit the bill.

Write back soon, please.


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## Blue mage for hire2

Blue mage for hire2 said:
			
		

> Even sudden gusts of wind that hit you like a ton of bricks or razor sharp winds describe air damage without offically knocking back anything but the tiniest insects, so what about void?




What I meant was, if I have Evoke Void suck someone into a black hole, that forces them to move, when all other evocations without side effects leave their targets in place.


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## RangerWickett

Void is basically vacuum, or the absence of matter.  The simplest effect of this is that it's kinda like mild disintegration.  If you're hit with an Evoke Void spell, you'll have bits of you simply obliterated.

The side effect you can buy with Evoke Void basically sucks the air out of the victim's lungs, since air is the easiest thing to destroy.  So Void is sort of a mixed bag of pseudo-antimatter and simple vacuum.


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## Blue mage for hire2

Okay, thanks.

Now, just to annoy you, how in the world do you Evoke Time or Space?  Maybe gravity and temporal winds of the Temporal Energy Plane (circa Manual of the Planes) but I'd like to see what you have in store.


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## RangerWickett

Imagine bending spacetime inside a creature, warping reality.  You might just twist its insides out, or age it painfully.  These are just strains on the body as long as the creature still has hit points, but if the target dies, Space can tear things to pieces, and Time can wither things and age them permanently, so even if you're raised, you'll never get back your youth.


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## Blue mage for hire2

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Time can wither things and age them permanently, so even if you're raised, you'll never get back your youth.




ouch.  What about permanent transform time spells?  But, if those exist, then the aristocracy in any campaign world will be immortal!  Perverts will transform their victims into helpless children or infants! (or even old people!)  Young-looking Human mages will be able to look down upon three hundred-year old Elves and say "I just don't understand you're thick-headed generation."  It would be Exiler of Life for any two-bit mage that could do it!  It would disrupt the birth-death cycle!  And Matlock marathons would dominate all the programing hours! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

Okay.  I just killed my own solution.......then freaked out a little.  On a side note, while any GM can change the rules to however he (and his players) like to play their games, how will you guys handle this paradox?  Will you allow permanent youthening spells, and grant humanity eternal youth?  Maybe its just eternal youth and not immortality, like Timeless Body. Or just leave those defeated by 1st-level evoke spells to the ravages of time?  Or maybe something that fixes magical (but not normal) aging, something like.....Heal Time?

p.s. Where can I get character sheets for EoM (if anywhere)?  Spell casting sheets are really all you need.

p.p.s. Never try to slip Blue mages into your PC classes, it can't be done.


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## RangerWickett

Well, any permanent spell requires an XP expenditure, so if you want to keep being young, you have to keep on spending XP.  It's really not much of a cost, honestly.  From a balance standpoint, who cares how old you are, as long as you're not feeble.

Of course you'll want to impose some flavorful restrictions to eternal youth.  Then there's always the pesky fact that a Dispel Magic will put you back to your own age, at least for a few rounds.  But that few rounds of being dead will sort of keep you dead.  True ways to avoid dying of old age would need a little more research, and would be plot-specific, no doubt.


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## Blue mage for hire2

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Void is basically vacuum, or the absence of matter.  The simplest effect of this is that it's kinda like mild disintegration.  If you're hit with an Evoke Void spell, you'll have bits of you simply obliterated.
> 
> The side effect you can buy with Evoke Void basically sucks the air out of the victim's lungs, since air is the easiest thing to destroy.  So Void is sort of a mixed bag of pseudo-antimatter and simple vacuum.





Okay, I saw an attack in a video game that might just qualify as an Evoke Void.  In the english version of Tales of Phantasia, (download from its page on www.fantasyanime.com) the main villian releases an attack on the guy who released him from his seal (gee, thats graditude) and his goons.  This attack is composed of a large ray of gray/blue/purple streaks that slams into its targets, which remain in reality as a black outline of their former selves for a few seconds, then get wiped out of existence.  I first that the vaccumous distentigration of the goons was force-based, but then it stuck me: Thats Void!

Its not a Disentigrate spell, because energy splashes over the target instead of just zapping it out of existence immediately (ala Star Trek phaser blasts).  It might be vaccum because of its bizarre visual effects, like it doesn't belong in the world of matter.  It might be antimatter because of its eventual destruction of any remains.  Does the attack (Dhaos Cannon) count as a visual for Evoke Void?

Also, I'm not sure how to adjudicate "bits of you simply oblitterated."  Its got to mean more than say, the 1d6 damage of void damage.  I mean, which bits of you?  Normally the EoM equivalent of Cure light wounds doesn't fix your fingers disappearing, thats more Regeneration's department.  And "a little bit from your middle, a little bit of your thighs, a little bit of your nose, and one of your hairs" seems too unprofessional and made-up on the spot to be taken seriously.  Plus, there's only so much nose you can disentigrate before it disappers totally.

So basically, WTH does void LOOK LIKE!!?


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## RangerWickett

Imagine the statue of David by Michaelangelo, or any other beautiful statue of a person.  Now take a pick to it and chip away tiny bits, pockmarking the face, leaving dents across the skin.  You don't actually break anything off, but it's a sort of scattershot effect, flaying tiny bits off you.  Are you familiar with the baleful teleport power from the Psionics Handbook?

And the Dhaos Cannon sounds like a perfectly reasonable depiction of Evoke Void.  Really, any given element could look like lots of things.  Evoke Fire could be a classic burst of flame, or it could simply make the air sizzle with waves of heat that don't actually combust, or it could even cause people's bodies to burn spontaneously from within.  Void just happens to be one of the more paradoxical of the elements.


----------



## Blue mage for hire2

First of all, thanks Ranger Wickett for all your help, and to you and all your associattes for making the original Elements of Magic, and now this revised version, Lycean Arcana (did I spell that right?)



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> You don't actually break anything off, but it's a sort of scattershot effect, flaying tiny bits off you.




Oh, I get it now!  So nothings really missing, just tiny heaps of cells break of like spranell! 



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Are you familiar with the baleful teleport power from the Psionics Handbook?




Sorry, but no.  I never did think much about psconics to buy any books, and I've never seen them in any of my games.  To be truthful, I just haven't been roleplaying all that I would have liked to, I estimate that I've had about 16 sessions (not the same campaign) all together, but I THINK I know a lot about the game.



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Really, any given element could look like lots of things.  Evoke Fire could be a classic burst of flame, or it could simply make the air sizzle with waves of heat that don't actually combust, or it could even cause people's bodies to burn spontaneously from within.  Void just happens to be one of the more paradoxical of the elements.




Thats pretty inuitive, which is good, but as you've noticed, I've asked a lot about elements.  It might be a good idea to dedicate a page of a section thereof to various potential visual effects of elements.  Evoke [Element] and Create [Element] both require some idea of what the elements look like, as well as Summon Elemental.  Heres a few examples:

Light-Sterotically is a beam of white of golden light, because the element is usually compared with the sun or powers of justice and purity themselves, but light can appear as a rainbow spectum, or even a single-colored laser (circa Star Wars).

Ice-Could be perfect Ice crystals, large blocks of Ice, a cloud of freezing air, or even snow!  Also, Evoke Ice could be totally invisible, with you trying to freeze and internal organ or just use your force of will to try to drop your enemies' core tempature to the point where he dies (or rusts, or just stops moving) from his inability to continue functioning.

Lightning- This element either extends from your fingertips or for the sky, and it can be white, light blue or yellow-esqe.

Ooze- Goo, Slime, Mud, Mildew, any kind of filth really.  Just remember there's a difference between Acid and Ooze.

Void- Vaccuum, the absense of matter.  Causes tiny bits of skin to chip off.  Void can be totally invisible or seem like a waterfall of cool-colored energy streaks.  The visible energy in such an attack or item might merely be the barrier to keep the antimatter from the matter of empty air, or might be the void itself tearing across reality.

Such an addition might make the system easier to use in the creation of truly artistic spells!


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## Blue mage for hire2

Hey, where'd everybody else go?  I know the sampler is out, but really!  I've been the only one to post lately, and those were just questions about Element types, mainly.  Are there really no more questions?

Strange, I only registered here to ask questions about this product a while back, and now I'm the only one whose moving and shaking the topic.  It would have just stopped at those questions about magic weapons without me.  I seems strange that one person can ever say that.

*just sits there*
* the song "I feel like I saved the world today" plays*







Blue Mage: Hey! Keep it down up there!!!!  *whacks the roof with a broom.*


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## RangerWickett

I'm a bit against putting in a page with sample descriptions, simply because the book is large enough already.  I think we'll make it a web enhancement.


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## Blue mage for hire2

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> I'm a bit against putting in a page with sample descriptions, simply because the book is large enough already.  I think we'll make it a web enhancement.




That's fine.  It can't be easy with all the new stuff you have to add.  Those spellcasting traditions must take up quite some space.  Plus, the free download itself was 44 pages, and it still doesn't take anything away from the finished product.


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## Kavyk

_Lyceian Arcana_ and _The Elements of Magic - Revised_ are one in the same? I had the impression that there was going to be a Revision and then a follow-up. 

Regardless, I eagerly await the release of a finished product. Is there a set date yet?


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## RangerWickett

The situation is a little odd.  Originally, we planned for the revised Elements of Magic to lead into a print edition, which would combine the revised book with extra material to create The Elements of Magic - Lyceian Arcana.  We're still fiddling around with the print situation, though.


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## Blue mage for hire2

Out of curiousity, when do you expect Lycean Arcana/EOM revised to be finished?


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## Blue mage for hire2

Kavyk said:
			
		

> Is there a set date yet?




Oh right.  My bad.


----------



## Dalamar

One thing that I didn't remember when I first read your description of the battle with the Tarrasque, Rangerwickett.
You said that one of the big 'holes' was the fighter 'bullet timing' full-attacks in without the Big T getting to do anything in between. This one, however, needs no plugging from your side if you just adapt to the 3.5 version of Time Stop, which doesn't allow affecting creatures or attended objects. I don't know if you've already addressed this since it cropped up a while back, it just popped to my mind.


----------



## towerwarlock

*Release Date*

 So when will the revised elements of magic be released?


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## BryonD

Do I have this correct?

A Level 5 mage has 35 MP.  No bonus for ability?

He can use Evoke(Fire)5 Seven times per day.  (At the cost of all other non-cantrips)

With that he can do 5d6 damage to a target 5 ft away that includes either a touch attack OR allows a save.

OR

He can do the same to any one target within 30 ft, but only does 4d6.
150 ft = 3d6, etc....

OR

30 feet away, everyone in a ten foot radius, Ref save, 3d6

OR

150 feet away, everyone in a ten foot radius, Ref save, 2d6

Any of the above are full round casting unless it is a Sig Spell.

Is this correct?

Thanks

Edit:  Not implying I think that is anywhere near an exhaustive list, just seeing if I have the basic system down.


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## RangerWickett

Yes, barring me making a rookie mistake, those are all feasible.

He can also make a ranged touch attack against everyone in a 10-ft. radius 30 ft. away doing 3d6 damage.  That could either be lots of bolts of fire, or maybe a flowerburst in the center that strikes outward at everyone, or any of a dozen other option.  As usual with multiple attacks, only one such attack roll could benefit from things like sneak attack damage, point-blank shot, etc.

As for the release of the book, it is unfortunately not yet in layout.  I'm pushing to get it done as soon as possible, but ENPub has other stuff on the table too.


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## BryonD

Cool thanks,

So the area effect can still offer a touch attack option?  That is interesting.  A separate attack roll per target?

This looks cool.


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## Kavyk

Hrm. Well, it would have been nice to see it before my new campaign got started, but I guess I'll just have to wait for the next one. Thanks for the Info and I am still looking forward to it.


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## RangerWickett

Kavyk said:
			
		

> Hrm. Well, it would have been nice to see it before my new campaign got started, but I guess I'll just have to wait for the next one. Thanks for the Info and I am still looking forward to it.




When are you starting your campaign?  I could send you a copy of the rtf file, if you promise to buy the actual release.  It won't be pretty, but it'll be available.  If you're interested, drop me an email at rangerwickett (at) hotmail.com


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## Blue mage for hire2

Hey, I was wondering how you can duplicate these world-altering spells in EOM Revised:

Plant growth

Anti-magic field

Diminish Plants

Gentle Repose

Any Dead-Reviving spells

Instant Death Spells

Temporal Stasis

Clone

Disintigrate

Animal Growth/Righteous Might (actually, what if you added a Bolster/Weaken [Creature] spell list?)

Conscecrate/Desecrate/Hallow/UnHallow (meh. I don't really care.)

And what about all those "can only be fixed by a wish or miracle" effects?


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## Blue mage for hire2

*reads True Neutral's description*
"They see good, evil, law, and chaos as prejudices and dangerous extremes."

How is good a prejudice, dangerous exetreme, or threating to the universe if there aren't enough axe-murdering pschopaths out there to "uphold the balance?"


----------



## RangerWickett

Plant growth - Well, the easiest way is Transform Plant to make bigger plants (or I suppose Transform Time to make older and thus bigger plants).  But this is only temporary.  If you want permanently growthed plants, you need to treat it as a magic item, and use a feat to make the spell permanent.  You could make one small 5-ft. plot grow to full yield for the cost of 1 MP and 40 XP.  Or you could make a plot of land 20-ft. across have permanent growth for 3 MP and 360 XP.  Not cheap, but most of the 'world-altering' powers aren't.

Optionally, you could use a version of Create Nature to just create food, but you'd have to eat it before the spell's duration ended, or else it would vanish.  Finally, you could just cast Infuse Time day after day to 'hasten' plants so they grow twice as fast.

Anti-magic field - This is a version of the Dispel Magic skill.

Diminish Plants - Just a different version of Transform Plant, only to make things smaller instead of bigger.

Gentle Repose - Heal Nature lets you 'fix' a dead body.  Nothing to keep a soul from departing faster.

Any Dead-Reviving spells - Heal spells allow raising the dead.

Instant Death Spells - Sorry, no such thing.  I hate them.  With a passion.  There's no reason hit points should be completely ignored.  Transform spells let you turn someone into something nasty, like rock, but when the spell ends, they go back to normal unless you spend XP to make the spell permanent.  Instant death spells can be recreated by simply having a high level spell deal lots of damage.  It will still be instant death for low-level characters, but heroes have Hit Points to help them resist.

Temporal Stasis - Yes, but it's difficult and expensive.

Clone - Oddly enough, yes, I do have a way to make this work, but your clone won't be as high level as you.  There's always the option for a contingency resurrection spell, though.

Disintigrate - Well, if we're talking about the 3.5 version, then yeah, it's just a high-level Evoke Void spell.  But there's no instant kills like in 3.0.

Animal Growth/Righteous Might (actually, what if you added a Bolster/Weaken [Creature] spell list?) - Infuse spells handle buffing, but you can also use Transform [Creature] spells.

Conscecrate/Desecrate/Hallow/UnHallow (meh. I don't really care.) - No, not really.  You could emulate the undead bolstering effect of Desecrate with Charm Undead, and the 'cut of your access to your god' power with a version of dispel magic.  It's not a clear fit though.  You could certainly fit such options in under a spell like Abjure Good, though.

And what about all those "can only be fixed by a wish or miracle" effects? - Wish is duplicated with the Craft Permanent Spell feat.  It basically lets you spend XP on the spot to make spells permanent, instead of having to create an item that may take weeks.


----------



## Verequus

I've been more or less busy with preparation for some tests (one is still ahead), so I looked into the teaser in my learn break. I've looked the thread through to avoid posting questions two times (found only five, which speaks for different mindsets of the readers ).

Here they come:

-Where is the statement, that you can't combine different cantrips at no cost? Deleted?
-One thing that isn't clear to me: If one casts a spell with a cone effect and chooses to use the maximum range as starting point, does the cone extend of the range or just vanish?
-Is the option of extending of spells with a duration of one day in the full version mentioned? Are other durations also extendable?
-"No effects provide Nature Resistance, however." How then can someone protect himself against Evoke Nature?
-"Armor Class, [Alignment].  The spell provides AC against attacks made by creatures of the appropriate alignment." "Armor Class, [Creature/Element].  The spell provides AC against natural unarmed attacks made by creatures of the appropriate type/elemental descriptor." Why the difference between these efects? Doesn't the AC-bonus count in the latter case, if someone uses the attack roll option of Evoke [Element]?
-"Saving Throw, [Alignment].  The spell provides a saving throw bonus against spells, attacks, and abilities from creatures of the appropriate alignment.  It also applies against spells and spell-like abilities of the appropriate alignment." Which effects with an appropriate alignment descriptor aren't affected? Don't count a holy sword or other objects with alignment like axiomatic or chaotic weapons? Wouldn't be the following wording easier to understand? "Saving Throw, [Alignment]. The spell provides a bonus against spells and spell-like abilities of the appropriate alignment. It also applies to all saving throws caused by effects from creatures of the appropriate alignment." Which saving throw causing attack wouldn't be called an alignment effect, too? Except the massage damage rule and special weapon properties (Disruption, Thundering) I don't recall such a thing.

"Saving Throw, [Element].  The spell provides a saving throw bonus against natural extraordinary, spell-like, and supernatural abilities from creatures with the appropriate elemental descriptor.  It also applies to saves against spells and spell-like abilities of the appropriate element." is similar. Which ability is neither natural, extraordinary, spell-like, and supernatural? Seems to cover all cases. Are attacks included? My wording suggestion: "Saving Throw, [Element]. The spell provides a saving throw bonus against spells and spell-like abilities of the appropriate element. It also applies to saves against all abilities (including attacks?) from creatures with the appropriate elemental descriptor."

BTW, how are the Alignment descriptors assigned to creatures? The ones with a subtype [Chaotic/Lawful/Good/Evil] maintain theirs, but what about creatures with only one alignment subtype or even none? Becomes everyone at least [Balanced] or [Balanced/(choose one) Chaotic/Lawful/Good/Evil]?
-"Telepathic Domination (7 MP).  For the spell’s duration, you may command the creature whenever you want from any distance, with any level of complexity." Also from other planes?
-"Create Air:  When you create air, you can choose its temperature, between extremes of -40 and 150 degrees." Celcius or Fahrenheit?
-"Alternately, if you target creatures directly (or if you target an object that needs air, like a fire), the spell will provide fresh air for them." This allows to put a fire into air-tight box, doesn't it? But the fire won't burn immersed in water, I think one has to use Move Water for breathing.
-"Evoke Death spells that allow saving throws for half damage require Fortitude saves instead of Reflex saves." Is this only for simple spells or also for complex spells? If the latter, are the saving throws for other elements also fortitude saves? The same issue for Evoke Life.
-"Putrify Food (1 die).  Can make up to four pounds of food toxic to eat for creatures of the appropriate elemental type or alignment, riddling it with parasites and diseases." How is the appropriate element or alignment determined?
-"All Evoke spells deal a base of 1d6 points of damage." I see that the damage cap has been removed. Does a spell Evoke [every Element] 0/Evoke [every Aligment] 0/Gen 0 27d6 damage with no cost or at least 1 MP?
-"Enduring Curing (varies). ... You may choose this enhancement multiple times to cure damage more quickly." Do multiple castings stack? One answer from you in this thread implies that they do.
-I don't find the possibility to use Heal Fire on creatures Infused with Fire.
-Move Air: "No Fall allows the creature to travel in a straight horizontal line in mid-air, and downward at any angle, but not upward." Which speed is allowed for the creature? The base speed?
-Move Death: "If a creature or object is stilled, it cannot move or be moved from its position at all."  I think, you wanted to use "anchored" instead "stilled" at this last sentence.
-Move Earth: What happens, if you are still inside solid matter when the spell expires?
-Move Fire: Can the creature control the path it uses? Or has it to collide which wahtever standing in its way?
-Is summoned creature really dead, if killed, or can it be summoned again after 24 hours?
-Transform Creature: Can you simply change yourself into a creature with a template? For example giving yourself the Winged template?

"When a creature changes form, it keeps its own hit points and Constitution score, but it gains the new form’s Strength, Dexterity, movement abilities, natural armor, and innate natural, extraordinary, spell-like, and supernatural abilities." Isn't it unbalancing, if a party member is changed into a golem with magical immunity? And why isn't the Constitution score changed, too? For balance reasons? Or can that be at least an enhancement?

Animate enhancement: "If this enhancement is chosen for a transformation of one creature into another, the transformed creature must make a Will save (same DC as the rest of the spell) or have its mind change so that it acts like the new creature.  This cannot raise ability scores above 10." Are the ability scores otherwise retained? Has a man turned into dog an Intelligence score of 2 or his own?
-BTW, did you check the Epic rules out? It has been released as Open Content last week.
-Can I have a current copy, too? And have I really to _buy_ the release version? I thought it would be released for free.


----------



## Verequus

I've used double post for addendum

-If someone changes a human into an undead, does he lose his constitution score? Generally, are nonabilities and traits from new gained types used?
-Is Spell Focus still available?


----------



## Charles Gray

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> A few things get changed around because of the differences in systems.  In EOM, there is no such thing as a luck bonus, divine bonus, or natural armor bonus.  Now, mind you, I don't have the Epic Level Handbook, and couldn't really use its rules for epic magic items anyway because _that_ part is not open content, but the magic item costs do end up being very close to things in the DMG, as long as you stick to the normal +5 limit..




  one quick note-- the SRD has just been updated in the last week or so to include the Epic SRD, including the magic system.


----------



## Verequus

Two other questions came into my mind:

-How Evoke Death level drain attacks are shielded without Abjure Death? Death-beings are immune against this kind of damage, so can one gain this descriptor with Infuse Death?
-If a monster, e.g. a golem, has a certain reaction to specific spells, how can these be simulated? If the golem is vulnarable to a fireball, is he then:

vulnarable to Evoke Fire spells in general?
vulnarable to Evoke Fire spells which are at least as good as the core fireball?
The last point raises the question: When is a EoM-spell as good as its core counterpart?

It has to use at least the MP equivalent of the core spell level, e.g. for a fireball at least 5 MPs.
It has to emulate the basic effect, duration, range and area aren't as much as important as the damage dice.
The latter seems to follow the spirit more.


----------



## LeePerry

*2 cents worth*

Just 2 cents worth from a VERY ancient gamer (have I really been playing RPGs for that long?).

It seems (from all of the posts) that the typical attempt to "break the rules" followed by the inevitable "fix the leak" are dangerously close to removing most of what makes this new class appealing.  There must be advantages for taking the class before it will be used.  If you "fix" all of the "breaks", you might end up with a class that is significantly less powerful than a Wizard or Sorcerer AND less flexible.
Whenever someone says "I can do this!", instead of immediately considering this a break in the rules, check to see if this supposed advantage is offset by other weaknesses.

With that in mind, I do have a couple of suggestions: (I know, some will think that one or all of these blow the class balance.  I just think one or all make sense...)
#1: Maximum MP currently equals your casting level.  Why not allow maximum MP's to be your casting level PLUS 1/2 of your Intelligence Modifier (round down).  This would allow a character with a high potential for magic (equated to Intelligence Modifier in 3.5) to push herself to greater effect.  Maybe balance this with a fatigue penalty if your final spell MP exceeds your level.  Picture Raistlin casting to exhaustion...
#2: I don't see anything regarding bonus MP's from high ability scores (unless I've overlooked it.  If so, sorry...).
#3: BONUS SPELL LISTS EQUAL TO YOUR INTELLIGENCE MODIFIER!  In my opinion, this only makes sense.  A more intelligent caster should be able to call upon a greater variety of effects.

I truly loved the first version of The Elements of Magic (what do we call it?  Elements Classic?).  I think the potential is there for dramatic development.
I have ideas for a campaign (Ars Magica influenced) where game balance goes bye-bye and wizards are allowed to shine.  This new rule book (or Elements Classic) sounds like the D20 rules I need to bring this vision to a magical life.

Again, just my 2 cents worth...


----------



## RangerWickett

Here is a long reply to a long question.  And there are more to come.

-Where is the statement, that you can't combine different cantrips at no cost? Deleted?  
Perhaps.  It should be in there.  It will be in the final version.

-One thing that isn't clear to me: If one casts a spell with a cone effect and chooses to use the maximum range as starting point, does the cone extend of the range or just vanish?
Well, there are two things you can do.  Usually you just buy a range for a cone, and the spell starts somewhere within 5 ft. of you and extends like any normal cone.  However, if you buy both a normal range and a cone, such as, say, a 30-ft. range and a 150-ft. cone, you can have the cone start at any point within 30 ft., and point any direction.

-Is the option of extending of spells with a duration of one day in the full version mentioned? Are other durations also extendable?
No spell lasts longer than a day.  The exceptions are magic items (which cost XP), create spells that create things that are eaten or forged or whatever, and contingency spells that can lay in wait for up to a week, but whose effects still have a duration of a day or less.  There is no such thing as the Extend Spell feat.

-"No effects provide Nature Resistance, however." How then can someone protect himself against Evoke Nature?
Damage reduction.  Evoke Nature does normal, physical damage, which can be resisted with DR.  There's no energy involved.

-"Armor Class, [Alignment].  The spell provides AC against attacks made by creatures of the appropriate alignment." "Armor Class, [Creature/Element].  The spell provides AC against natural unarmed attacks made by creatures of the appropriate type/elemental descriptor." Why the difference between these efects? Doesn't the AC-bonus count in the latter case, if someone uses the attack roll option of Evoke [Element]?
Abjure Element should be revised so that the AC protects against all natural attacks by the creature, which includes things like beholder eye rays.  It does not protect against ray of death spells that characters cast, nor does it protect against sword attacks, bows, etc.  The difference is because Abjure Evil only protects against things that are EVIL, as in demons, evil clerics, etc.  People who are simply normal folks that are Neutral Evil don't count as evil for that purpose.

If we just let Abjure Humanoid protect against all attacks by humanoids, it'd be _far_ too good.  Abjure [Alignment] is generally much more limited, and so its protection extends to more things.

-"Saving Throw, [Alignment].  The spell provides a saving throw bonus against spells, attacks, and abilities from creatures of the appropriate alignment.  It also applies against spells and spell-like abilities of the appropriate alignment." Which effects with an appropriate alignment descriptor aren't affected? Don't count a holy sword or other objects with alignment like axiomatic or chaotic weapons? Wouldn't be the following wording easier to understand? "Saving Throw, [Alignment]. The spell provides a bonus against spells and spell-like abilities of the appropriate alignment. It also applies to all saving throws caused by effects from creatures of the appropriate alignment." Which saving throw causing attack wouldn't be called an alignment effect, too? Except the massage damage rule and special weapon properties (Disruption, Thundering) I don't recall such a thing.
Good point.  That wording is a bit clearer.

 "Saving Throw, [Element].  The spell provides a saving throw bonus against natural extraordinary, spell-like, and supernatural abilities from creatures with the appropriate elemental descriptor.  It also applies to saves against spells and spell-like abilities of the appropriate element." is similar. Which ability is neither natural, extraordinary, spell-like, and supernatural? Seems to cover all cases. Are attacks included? My wording suggestion: "Saving Throw, [Element]. The spell provides a saving throw bonus against spells and spell-like abilities of the appropriate element. It also applies to saves against all abilities (including attacks?) from creatures with the appropriate elemental descriptor."
I'll have to re-examine the wording after I reread the Abjure section a bit more closely.  As is, though, it only protects against those abilities which are natural to the creature.  Thus Abjure Death will give you saving throw bonus against a Bozak's death attack, but not against a lich's spells, because the spells aren't a natural aspect of the creature; they're skill-based. 

BTW, how are the Alignment descriptors assigned to creatures? The ones with a subtype [Chaotic/Lawful/Good/Evil] maintain theirs, but what about creatures with only one alignment subtype or even none? Becomes everyone at least [Balanced] or [Balanced/(choose one) Chaotic/Lawful/Good/Evil]?
That's one part I hadn't written up in the rules, yet, but basically you only qualify as good or evil or lawful or chaotic if you have that descriptor (such as for Outsiders) or if you are a spellcaster aligned to a powerful entity of that alignment.  Everything else is neutral.  Since the default of EOM is that magic is not necessarily given from the gods directly, few PCs or non-monstrous NPCs will have an alignment descriptor.  But this is one of the areas we talk about in the GM advice section, suggesting you decide what exactly qualifies.

By the way, you've now encouraged me to add Infuse [alignment] back in.  I couldn't think of much for it to do, but now it will help make people susceptible to spells that affect that alignment.  Of course, only an evil person would use Infuse Good on an enemy just so they can Evoke Evil against them; a good person will generally not want to dabble in dark arts.

-"Telepathic Domination (7 MP).  For the spell’s duration, you may command the creature whenever you want from any distance, with any level of complexity." Also from other planes?
No.

-"Create Air:  When you create air, you can choose its temperature, between extremes of -40 and 150 degrees." Celcius or Fahrenheit?
Sorry, I'm Amero-centric.  I'll clarify that it's Farenheit (sp?).

-"Alternately, if you target creatures directly (or if you target an object that needs air, like a fire), the spell will provide fresh air for them." This allows to put a fire into air-tight box, doesn't it? But the fire won't burn immersed in water, I think one has to use Move Water for breathing.
That's an odd question.  I personally would rule that, in calm waters, you could submerge a torch or something similar affected with Create Air, and have the fire keep burning.  In any strong current, though, the water would act like rain or strong winds, and could put out the flame.

-"Evoke Death spells that allow saving throws for half damage require Fortitude saves instead of Reflex saves." Is this only for simple spells or also for complex spells? If the latter, are the saving throws for other elements also fortitude saves? The same issue for Evoke Life.
If I cast Evoke Fire 3/Evoke Death 3/Gen 1 and target you with a spell that does 4d6 fire and 3d6 death, you make a Reflex save against the fire, and a Fort save against the death.

-"Putrify Food (1 die).  Can make up to four pounds of food toxic to eat for creatures of the appropriate elemental type or alignment, riddling it with parasites and diseases." How is the appropriate element or alignment determined?
Oops, that's a typo, from when I copy/pasted Purify Food from Heal.  It's been revised a bit more in the full version, but most food counts as a 'nature' object.

-"All Evoke spells deal a base of 1d6 points of damage." I see that the damage cap has been removed. Does a spell Evoke [every Element] 0/Evoke [every Aligment] 0/Gen 0 27d6 damage with no cost or at least 1 MP?
The old adage is, if it looks too good to be true, it probably is.  No, you can't cast Evoke Everything 0 for 27d6 damage (anyway, the good damage wouldn't hurt any good targets, and same for other alignments, so it'd be more like 25d6).  You do have to spend at least 1 MP per spell list, unless it's a simple spell.

-"Enduring Curing (varies). ... You may choose this enhancement multiple times to cure damage more quickly." Do multiple castings stack? One answer from you in this thread implies that they do.
Yes, multiple castings stack.

-I don't find the possibility to use Heal Fire on creatures Infused with Fire.
It's a part that wasn't done yet on Infuse, so we didn't include it in the teaser.  But yeah, that's an option.

-Move Air: "No Fall allows the creature to travel in a straight horizontal line in mid-air, and downward at any angle, but not upward." Which speed is allowed for the creature? The base speed?
Yes, base speed as usual.

-Move Death: "If a creature or object is stilled, it cannot move or be moved from its position at all."  I think, you wanted to use "anchored" instead "stilled" at this last sentence.
Yes, another typo.

-Move Earth: What happens, if you are still inside solid matter when the spell expires?
Ah, the joys of covering all your bases.  It'd be like the core spells that do similar things; you get shunted out, taking 1d6 damage for every 10 ft.

-Move Fire: Can the creature control the path it uses? Or has it to collide which wahtever standing in its way?
You just move faster, not out of control.  There's no drawback.

-Is summoned creature really dead, if killed, or can it be summoned again after 24 hours?
That's up to you and your GM to decide, based on your world.  If you summon specific creatures, then I'd suggest yes, a summoned creature that dies is dead, though if you choose a specific creature, it gets a save to resist.  If you just conjure up some monster out of the aether, it doesn't really matter.

-Transform Creature: Can you simply change yourself into a creature with a template? For example giving yourself the Winged template?
I didn't know there was a winged template.  But yeah, for about 1 MP you could turn yourself into a flying human for a minute.

"When a creature changes form, it keeps its own hit points and Constitution score, but it gains the new form’s Strength, Dexterity, movement abilities, natural armor, and innate natural, extraordinary, spell-like, and supernatural abilities." Isn't it unbalancing, if a party member is changed into a golem with magical immunity? And why isn't the Constitution score changed, too? For balance reasons? Or can that be at least an enhancement?
Con doesn't change just because, if we did have it change, we couldn't let it change your hit points, or that'd be incredibly broken.  We could have let your Con change but then your hit points don't, but I always found that aspect of polymorph a little clunky.  As for turning into a golem, I don't know the MP costs off hand, but it's horrendously expensive to get something as strong as a golem.  Plus, the GM can always veto things that seem blatanly overpowered.

Animate enhancement: "If this enhancement is chosen for a transformation of one creature into another, the transformed creature must make a Will save (same DC as the rest of the spell) or have its mind change so that it acts like the new creature.  This cannot raise ability scores above 10." Are the ability scores otherwise retained? Has a man turned into dog an Intelligence score of 2 or his own?
If a man is turned into a dog, and he fails his Will save, his Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma change to that of a dog, lowering if a dog's score is lower (like a 2 Intelligence) and increasing if the dog's is higher, unless the increase would go above 10, in which case it just goes up to 10.  So if David the wizard (Int 20, Wis 6) was turned into a dog, he'd end up with a 2 Int, 10 Wis.

-BTW, did you check the Epic rules out? It has been released as Open Content last week.
Dude, the book is _done_.  I can release epic rules some time later.  Sorry man, but I'm running out of steam, and the spell seed system hurts my head.

-Can I have a current copy, too? And have I really to _buy_ the release version? I thought it would be released for free.
The teaser is released for free, and the teaser is enough to play the system, though you don't get the full depth of abilities that are in the actual book.  As for handing out copies, I won't be sending out any more.  I don't want a half-dozen different versions floating around with minor typos and unedited things all over the place.  The next version you see will be the full release.


----------



## RangerWickett

-If someone changes a human into an undead, does he lose his constitution score? Generally, are nonabilities and traits from new gained types used?
Ah, thanks for catching that.  Yes, if you turn into a form that doesn't have a constitution score, you lose your Constitution score (and thus can't be poisoned, etc.), though your hit points do not change.  The exception I'd let through is if you turn yourself into an undead permanently, such as by turning into a lich with Transform Undead and Craft Permanent spell, then you'd change to having the normal d12 per hit die.  Transform spells made permanent by Craft Permanent Spell are not cancelled in an antimagic field.

-Is Spell Focus still available?
Yes, in a slightly altered version.


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## RangerWickett

-How Evoke Death level drain attacks are shielded without Abjure Death? Death-beings are immune against this kind of damage, so can one gain this descriptor with Infuse Death?
If you use Infuse Death to be 'deathy' enough, then yes, you're immune to level drains (and other Evoke Death effects).  

-If a monster, e.g. a golem, has a certain reaction to specific spells, how can these be simulated? If the golem is vulnarable to a fireball, is he then:

vulnarable to Evoke Fire spells in general?
vulnarable to Evoke Fire spells which are at least as good as the core fireball?
The last point raises the question: When is a EoM-spell as good as its core counterpart?

It has to use at least the MP equivalent of the core spell level, e.g. for a fireball at least 5 MPs.
It has to emulate the basic effect, duration, range and area aren't as much as important as the damage dice.
The latter seems to follow the spirit more.
I don't know that any creature is particularly vulnerable or resistant to a single spell.  I know that fire helps iron golems and lightning slows them, but I'd say that as long as the spell is similar in theme and power, the GM shouldn't have a problem letting it sub in.  For instance, with the newly minted Infuse Good spell list, you can create the lovely blessed crossbow bolt that will slay a Rakshasa


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## RangerWickett

LeePerry said:
			
		

> Just 2 cents worth from a VERY ancient gamer (have I really been playing RPGs for that long?).
> 
> It seems (from all of the posts) that the typical attempt to "break the rules" followed by the inevitable "fix the leak" are dangerously close to removing most of what makes this new class appealing.  There must be advantages for taking the class before it will be used.  If you "fix" all of the "breaks", you might end up with a class that is significantly less powerful than a Wizard or Sorcerer AND less flexible.
> Whenever someone says "I can do this!", instead of immediately considering this a break in the rules, check to see if this supposed advantage is offset by other weaknesses.
> 
> With that in mind, I do have a couple of suggestions: (I know, some will think that one or all of these blow the class balance.  I just think one or all make sense...)
> #1: Maximum MP currently equals your casting level.  Why not allow maximum MP's to be your casting level PLUS 1/2 of your Intelligence Modifier (round down).  This would allow a character with a high potential for magic (equated to Intelligence Modifier in 3.5) to push herself to greater effect.  Maybe balance this with a fatigue penalty if your final spell MP exceeds your level.  Picture Raistlin casting to exhaustion...
> #2: I don't see anything regarding bonus MP's from high ability scores (unless I've overlooked it.  If so, sorry...).
> #3: BONUS SPELL LISTS EQUAL TO YOUR INTELLIGENCE MODIFIER!  In my opinion, this only makes sense.  A more intelligent caster should be able to call upon a greater variety of effects.




I didn't want to stereotype spellcasters as being very smart/wise/charismatic.  Do what you want.




> I truly loved the first version of The Elements of Magic (what do we call it?  Elements Classic?).  I think the potential is there for dramatic development.
> I have ideas for a campaign (Ars Magica influenced) where game balance goes bye-bye and wizards are allowed to shine.  This new rule book (or Elements Classic) sounds like the D20 rules I need to bring this vision to a magical life.
> 
> Again, just my 2 cents worth...




I tried not to just limit it to things the core rules can do, but to really let whacky stuff be available.  Now, mind you, some of the original whackiness had to go, such as using Transform Magical Beast 20/Gen 0 to turn your buddy into a Tarrasque for a minute.  But I know a few tricks that I'm hoping other people will see, and I hope they don't turn out to be too bizarre or powerful.  Right now, the one I'm most worried about is the Scrying-rider spell ability, which lets you do stuff like Scry on an enemy, charm him from halfway around the world, and use him to sabotage your other enemies without getting into trouble.

That's high level stuff, and I like it.


----------



## Blue mage for hire2

Is there a restriction against magic creating gold objects?

What do you do to keep your players (and NPC mages) from creating gold coins with create metal?  Even non-permanent spells last long enough to fool a shopkeeper, and I'm pretty sure SOMEBODY in the world won't mind producing heaps of gold at the expense of a little XP.  NPC XP has always got me befuddled (where'd the wizard's get the XP to create all those +3 Full Plates and why to they just leave them on the selves for any rich son of a gun to pick up?) and therefore, inflation will soar out of control if NPC spellcasters are more than a little common.

I suggest either a government thats main focus is to keep mages under control, or some sort of magical currency.  Little trinkets that require a confidential ritual to create, maybe giving extra mp for a piece at the expense of the coin becoming worthless.  Something like that.

Hope to see the finished product soon!  It looks great!


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## Verequus

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> -"Create Air: When you create air, you can choose its temperature, between extremes of -40 and 150 degrees." Celcius or Fahrenheit?
> Sorry, I'm Amero-centric. I'll clarify that it's Farenheit (sp?).





It is spelled Fahrenheit. How about adding "...between extremes of -40 and 150 degrees Fahrenheit (or between -40 and 65 degrees Celcius)." It would be a convience for players aboard America, especially, if it is the only place, where degrees come into play.



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> -Transform Creature: Can you simply change yourself into a creature with a template? For example giving yourself the Winged template?
> I didn't know there was a winged template. But yeah, for about 1 MP you could turn yourself into a flying human for a minute.





IIRC, the Winged template is in Savage Species.



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> -BTW, did you check the Epic rules out? It has been released as Open Content last week.
> Dude, the book is _done_. I can release epic rules some time later. Sorry man, but I'm running out of steam, and the spell seed system hurts my head.



I can wait for that Epic web enhancement. And the spell seed system is simply broken. The seed idea is good (EoM lite ), but the system with the DCs - brrr... simply awful.

Theoritically, one could devise a spell, which eliminates all beings in the entire multiverse, including gods, with the exception of the caster. For getting the DC low, just use the backfire option. It will kill you, too, but with a resurrection contingency, you will be alive. And for the people who had the same contingency... include the dispel seed in the epic spell, so only you will be alive again - and then no one can stop you becoming the greatest god ever!

You can say that the DM should take care of that, but it means to rule out an entirely valid spell. No system should allow such effect for 21st-level-character - if at all, then the character speaking such a spell should be at least as mighty as Ao himself!

BTW, I would like to have the option for creating artifacts. The rule, that the knowlegde of artifact creating has been forgotten, shows only, that the creators of D&D couldn't come up with balanced rules. EoM should allow that because it scales so nicely and eventually the spells with the effects of artifacts would be castable, not to mention, that scrying into the deep past for the creating knowledge is possible and would be done, too - at least I would do it .


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## Verequus

With EoM it is possible to charm undeads, although in the core rules it is stated otherwise. But how about other immunities for other creatures types? E.g., the abominations are immune to mind-influencing effects in core, but also with EoM? If there is no general immunity, is then an immunity on a case-by-case-basis possible? Or can that only be a permanent/racial bonus for a being?


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## donm61873

*teom "srd replacements"*

It strikes me that what would be very useful (and admittedly, difficult for the authors) would be for someone(s) to detail the required supporting changes to the existing SRD spells, magic items and monsters...

Or, is some of that already in the revision?

As is, tEoM is like buying a toolkit, but it's metric tool, and the SRD is in standard sizes...


DonM.


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## Verequus

donm61873 said:
			
		

> It strikes me that what would be very useful (and admittedly, difficult for the authors) would be for someone(s) to detail the required supporting changes to the existing SRD spells, magic items and monsters...
> 
> Or, is some of that already in the revision?
> 
> As is, tEoM is like buying a toolkit, but it's metric tool, and the SRD is in standard sizes...



1. AFAIK, there won't be a PDF, which includes all the SRD stuff, from the authors - maybe they would make a nice PDF, if the GMs do the conversion on the board. (Guessing on the SRD size, there has to be an own board alone for that ).

2. You can't really convert all the spells 1:1. There is not anymore the "no save"-option and because spells have a maximum duration of one day, spells like Geas are impossible to reproduce without make them permanent. Also one has to spend 8 MPs for the all-day-duration, which means that core spells below the 5-level will have a maximum duration of one hour in EoM - e.g. Animal Messenger, 2nd or 3rd-level spell, has a duration of day/level.

But not every effect has to be translated 1:1 - the EoM-Animal Messenger could do the trick with only diplomacy checks and not with a mind control (thanks, RW!). So be flexible: Search for alternatives, which need lesser MPs. Does someone know other good tricks?

3. For the magic items and monster abilities: There are rules for creating magic items (though in Lyceian Arcana, not in EoM) - no need for converting them except devising a spell with the wanted effect. Monster abilities could stay the same, if you can't do a 1:1-convert and change the CR accordingly (in the case of a big chance of the spell power level). But if official conversion exist, is unknown at the moment.


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## donm61873

Perhaps you misunderstand my intent...

I think that every GM that looks over tEoM will love it, until they realize how much work it really requires for full implementation...

And I'm suggesting that we should take care of that little problem; sure - some of the "conversions" are obvious - and some aren't (like the question about how to make light). Enough that a simple module could be run as a demo or something should be in the tEoM pdf. BUT, here, we can go all the way and go for a complete swapout of the SRD... rebuild it from the ground up with tEoM as the magic system.

That's what I'm suggesting...


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## Kavyk

There are rules for creating magic items. There aren't rules for monsters, but essentially the only thing that would need to be changed, as RuleMaster points out, is their spell-like abilities. So, basically, for a 'total conversion' of the SRD, all you're really talking about is an ENWorld Forum with signature spell equivalents of every spell in the SRD, which is something that RangerWickett already plans to do, I think. 

There are already some signature spells in the thing, but not a lot. If all of us who think it would be awesome to have this 'Ultimate EoM Spellbook' work together, I'm sure we could post most of the equivalents here or in another thread specifically for that purpose. Of course, if we all take bits, etc it cuts down on the work load of any particular DM and hopefully will encourage use of the system. 

So, in a nutshell, I think it is a great idea, and all we will have to convert is spells. Though all of them cannot be converted, we can still get pretty close.

edited to add question:

I'd actually like to start a thread entitled: Ultimate EoM Spellbook, but I think I need permission and a place to put it. I've already got an EoM equivalent of Acid Arrow and Acid Fog.  No time like the present.

Last edit, really:

This also means, if we start a group thing, I volunteer to convert the A-B SRD document to EoM.


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## RangerWickett

I wanted to start a fan-driven database of spells, and I assumed there'd be a lot of conversions inherent in the process.  I'll talk to Russ about getting perhaps a new sub-forum for posting EOM material, but it probably won't appear until the book is actually released.

The idea about a walk-through adventure is kinda nice.  I'll see what I can do.


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## Verequus

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> The idea about a walk-through adventure is kinda nice.



An adventure?  Don't you mean a guide?

The idea of a database isn't bad, but I don't know if I will have time for that - I already waited over 6 months for starting another project. At least self-created spells can be easily put in.


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## donm61873

Yeah, I don't want to delay this coming out - I want it now!

But, I want us to be ready to give GMs some help...


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## Kavyk

I think that something else we could do to help DMs and players would be to come up with some starting packages. That was something that I found very helpful when 3.0 first came out. These may already be in the works, or not, but it I'm sure we could still come up with some alternate packages and a few starting spells. 

I'm not sure how you would really do a walk-through adventure for this product. Except for spellcasters, everything is going to be functionally identical. Even with monsters, you'll create spells which duplicate existing effects for them. But I'd still be interested to see what was developed.


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## towerwarlock

So WHEN THE FRACK is either the revised Elements of Magic or the other book due out for release??????????  Perhaps Guido the Ogre of persuasion needs to drop by and convince the right people to hurry up?  Nothing says hurry up like Ogre karioke!


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## Verequus

That's a rude and impolite way of asking. *doesn't know what emotion to express*


Anyway, according to RangerWickett, EoM will be out in this month - in his sig EoM is already marked for layout, too.


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## Blue mage for hire2

RuleMaster said:
			
		

> That's a rude and impolite way of asking. *doesn't know what emotion to express*





Well, people have been posting in at least neutral- and curious-mannered questions at least 3 times.



> Anyway, according to RangerWickett, EoM will be out in this month - in his sig EoM is already marked for layout, too.




Yayness!


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## towerwarlock

*Rude?*

That was not a rude post, I used no profanity. Besides now Guido can go anoy his favorite victims: the IRS.


----------



## donm61873

Just another question...  anyone using EoM with the rules for magic items from the Artificer's Handbook (from Mystic Eye Games)?


DonM.


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## Verequus

towerwarlock said:
			
		

> That was not a rude post, I used no profanity. Besides now Guido can go anoy his favorite victims: the IRS.



Being German, I simply don't know what is hidden profanity or accepted colloquial language. Yet it looks to me like the use of the f-word. But I leave it to RW, what he thinks about this post. And regarding the joke about Guido: Can you explain it to me?


So, a question to RangerWickett: I thought recently about the extra damage, which a creature receives, if the type of damage is from the opposing element of creature, 1.5 times of normal, isn't it? Does this function like the SRD?

"*Vulnerability to Energy:* Some creatures have vulnerability to a certain kind of energy effect (typically either cold or fire). Such a creature takes half again as much (+50%) damage as normal from the effect, regardless of whether a saving throw is allowed, or if the save is a success or failure."


Regarding the spell database: The spells taken from the SRD won't probably match in all there parameters their core images. So every spell could be translated to one of two versions - the first one is the 1:1-translation, as much as possible and could have a higher MP-cost than the core spell level allows, and the second one is a spell with the same power level as the core spell, with the damage/effect closely followed as possible. I believe, people looking for a replacement want it identical in power level and in damage, so area, range and duration have to suffer. But the superficial similarity could possibly delude players for taking them identical, what is never true alone for the fact, that the caster level doesn't improve damage dice.

Hmm, that inspires me: The conversion (or other invented spells) should have a kind of template or base version - simply the minimum version for having the wanted effect, which needs only to be adapted for better versions by spending a higher amount of MP - and a sample, which could be the same power level-variant.

One example:

[Element/Alignment]ball
Base version:
Evoke [Element/Aligment] 1/Gen 1
Minimum MP: 2
Range: Short (30 ft.)
Duration: One round

This spell surrounds the target shortly with a ball of [Element/Alignment] and does 1d6 damage. Costs: 1 MP damage, 1 MP range.

Improvements: Increased damage (1 MP for 1d6, can be from other element/alignment), increased range (up to 2 MPs for long range), contingency (up to 8(?) MPs, used for delay or as trap trigger).

Sample:
Fireball
Evoke Fire 3/Gen 2
Total MP: 5
Range: Medium (150 ft.)
Duration: One round

This spell surrounds the target shortly with a ball of fire and does 3d6 damage. Costs: 3 MP damage, 2 MP range.

The improvement entries are the most likely used enhancements with included values, what will be changed, and if applicable, the upper range of the enhancement (there could be used more MPs on such an enhancement, but such situations would be rare) and specific use. This example defines not only a Fireball, but also a Delayed Blast Fireball and a Fire Trap in all varieties, including other elements and aligments. Cool, isn't it?

I don't know, for how many spells this schema is applicable, but at least the most basic spells would profit from it. In the end, the base/sample schema follows more the modularity of EoM, allows still a swift adaption in the midst of combat (as long other players distract the GM ) and reduces the variants of the same theme (e.g. iceball), while unique spells remain valid entries. Oh, suggestions for a better schema are welcome!


----------



## RangerWickett

I'm sorry that I haven't done much replying this weekend.  I've had a nasty cold, and really couldn't keep a logical thought in my head if I'd wanted to.  I'm still a bit sick, but I should finagle a way to answer these questions soon.


----------



## Verequus

Arrg, I forgot to ask that again: Are the only spell components verbal and somatic componts? No material components, no foci and no XP-costs? Count the extra MPs of Metamagic feats towards the spell DC (they shouldn't except Heighten Spell)?

And because I read the generic classes thread and the discussion, if spellcasters should have a spell failure chance while casting in armor: IIRC, the spell failure chance for wizards has been introduced in former editions as a method of balancing the power of high level-wizards. Now with 3.5 edition, the power of magic users has been reduced and especially with EoM, there is no more a difference between a cleric- and wizard-charactertype. So would it be unbalancing, if there would be no spell failure or a least no spell failure with light armor? And what about changing the d4 to a d6? The d4 is simply to small for this game (unless it is a prestige class).


----------



## Verequus

Some questions which accumulated themselves:
-Using temporary Transform spells: What happens to severed limbs and killed people? Will they change back? Immediately or after the end of the spell? If permanent, can be changed materials used as components? What, if only temporary?
-It should exist an enhancement for transform which allows to bring Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma to usual values for a member of the chosen race. Maybe 1 MP for two points of one score?
-Are spells with 0 MP for one or more lists allowed (except Gen 0)? Can someone get cantrip-effects for free, if spells with normal MP-costs are used like Evoke Fire 5/Evoke Death 0/Evoke Lava 0/Gen 2?
-Is Read Magic still necessary? If yes, how is it simulated?
-Are [Element]-creatures immun to the friendly elements?


----------



## RangerWickett

Yes, theres's spell failure, but it's rather easy to get around.

There are only verbal and somatic components required. Anything else is just for flavor.

Severed parts. . . . Not a big issue. No, you can't use them as components for anything, even though EOM doesn't have components anyway. They definitely revert to the normal form at the end of the spell.

There is a way to alter critters' intelligences and so on.

No, you cannot combine 0-Mp effects.

Read Magic? Whatever could you be talking about? Nope, it's gone, sorta. Now if you want to read a spellbook or scroll, you just have to be able to read the right language.

Yep, a fire creature is immune to fire damage, and so on.


----------



## Kemrain

Some questions that I haven't seen asked yet... My apologies if I missed one.

Is there a way to get Spell Resistance? I'm lookingto make an item that'd grant a Drow's racial abilities, but I have no way to do SR with the teaser. Is it even supported? Oh, and how would the roll work?

This may seem stupid, but, using a 0mp effect, with a Gen of 1, means it costs 1 MP and 1 cantrip, right?

Using what I've read in this thread, I've been piecing together a Magic Item creation system for use in my current campaign (doubt anyone buy my GM would call it balanced, but..) and I've started to run into a slight problem.  I'm looking to create effects that you don't have in your spells.  Now, I've been finding spells that are 'close enough'  that they fit, flavor-wise, but I was wondering if you had any suggestions on how to deal with this subject.

This one HAS been mentioned, though I didn't see an answer... How do I create a light effect? Infuse Fire?

- Kemrain the Curious.


----------



## Verequus

Kemrain said:
			
		

> Is there a way to get Spell Resistance? I'm lookingto make an item that'd grant a Drow's racial abilities, but I have no way to do SR with the teaser. Is it even supported? Oh, and how would the roll work?



You have to use Abjure Force - many effects aren't detailed in the teaser, so I don't recommend to create spells using a work-around - simple because of the need of redesign with the proper effects.



> This may seem stupid, but, using a 0mp effect, with a Gen of 1, means it costs 1 MP and 1 cantrip, right?



You get a Cantrip effect probably with a duration of 10 minutes, as long the effect isn't instantious like the Evoke [Element]-lists. And you have to pay 1 MP because of the Gen 1.



> Using what I've read in this thread, I've been piecing together a Magic Item creation system for use in my current campaign (doubt anyone buy my GM would call it balanced, but..) and I've started to run into a slight problem. I'm looking to create effects that you don't have in your spells. Now, I've been finding spells that are 'close enough' that they fit, flavor-wise, but I was wondering if you had any suggestions on how to deal with this subject.



Like I mentioned above - wait for the end product, then most problems are gone. Except that the item creation rules aren't detailed in EoM, but in Lyceian Arcana, the next product in line. (Although the rules already exist, but no one saw them (fully) except playtesters, I suspect. The only two things are really known, are: 1. Price depends only from MPs. 2. Save DC depends only from MPs, not from caster level.)



> This one HAS been mentioned, though I didn't see an answer... How do I create a light effect? Infuse Fire?



No, through Create Light.

I hope, the answers are sufficient.


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## RangerWickett

Dude, you answered it for me!  That's so cool.

But yes, to clarify one point, you only spend a cantrip usage if the total spell's cost is 0 MP.  If there's any other enhancements, its no longer really a cantrip, so you just spend the appropriate MP.

Can you give me some idea to what types of items you want to create?  I might be able to give answers.


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## Blue mage for hire2

So, how far are you on the release of EOM revised?


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## Kemrain

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> But yes, to clarify one point, you only spend a cantrip usage if the total spell's cost is 0 MP.  If there's any other enhancements, its no longer really a cantrip, so you just spend the appropriate MP.




Thank you! this has been bothering me for a few weeks now.



> Can you give me some idea to what types of items you want to create?  I might be able to give answers.




As I said in my earlier post, I'm looking for a magic item that will grant most all the racial abilities of a Drow, while leaving the wearer a member of their own race.  It was figured that, under the normal rules, it would cost appx 6k XP, so I figure it'll be a hefty item in any system.

Here's a list of the proposed effects, thus far:

+2 to Dexterity, +2 Saving throw bonus against enchantments effects, Darkvision 120', +2 to Will saves against spells or spell like abilities, Spell Resistance 11+ Character Level, Darkness at Will, Quickened Levitate at Will, and a tongues ability with Drow and Undercommon.
(Drow spell like abilities are a little different in my campaign, so there are the changes.)

I was also looking at having a pair of swords enchanted with Wind Effects.

Looking to cobble together 1d6 Wind damage, +4 to disarm attempts, and +2 to Ac against physical missiles due to a wind effect.  When dual wielded, I want them to function as swords of apeed (one extra attack on full attack), a +4 bonus to AC against physical missiles and a +2 bonus to AC against physical melee attacks due to wind effects, and a +2 bonus to Reflex saves.  A very unique pair of blades, with very unique abilities.

How might I go about fairly describingthose effects with EoM?

- Kemrain the Interested.


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## Blue mage for hire2

Is there anyway to reverse the damage of dying via evoke time? I mean, while its true to that maybe the player won't mind if his character is older if he doesn't suffer any major penalties, but what about the character's feelings?  People do roleplay and try to get into character.  I mean, Rip Van Winkle can't be happy about that ten year sleep he had, who would be?  Also, I don't think any player would be happy to let the GM bring about such a sudden change with no hope of repair.  Just a few conventiently located evil mages with Evoke time showing up will reduce the PCs to feeble.  It can be worse than the instant death effects Ranger Wickett seems to oppose, but even that has True Resurrection and Heal Life.


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## Kemrain

Blue mage for hire2 said:
			
		

> Is there anyway to reverse the damage of dying via evoke time? I mean, while its true to that maybe the player won't mind if his character is older if he doesn't suffer any major penalties, but what about the character's feelings?  People do roleplay and try to get into character.  I mean, Rip Van Winkle can't be happy about that ten year sleep he had, who would be?  Also, I don't think any player would be happy to let the GM bring about such a sudden change with no hope of repair.  Just a few conventiently located evil mages with Evoke time showing up will reduce the PCs to feeble.  It can be worse than the instant death effects Ranger Wickett seems to oppose, but even that has True Resurrection and Heal Life.




How about Heal Time?

- Kemrain the Young.


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## Blue mage for hire2

Kemrain said:
			
		

> How about Heal Time?
> 
> - Kemrain the Young.




lol, "the Young".  Anyway, what DOES Heal Time do?


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## donm61873

Blue mage for hire2 said:
			
		

> lol, "the Young".  Anyway, what DOES Heal Time do?




Time heals all wounds.


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## Blue mage for hire2

Oh, and I'm a little bit confused as to why you would ever choose Evoke Void or Evoke Mist.  I ever understand Sonic to objects, Force to those annoying intagible creatures, Acid to Trolls and other regenerating creatures, Life to Undead, Shadow to.....blot out the light, oh! and Sunwryms! but, what about Mist and Void, scalding steam sounds nasty, but which are you going to use against the Ice troll, Evoke Mist or Evoke Lava?  And Void is cool, and might have some useful side effects, but I'm not sure what the psuedo-antimatter would be best against.


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## keynup

Just curious what people think about having something like the Recharge option from Unearthed Arcane for this system?

I’m no so much as looking at this as an option, but I had the idea and was forced to follow it through.  
Using the basic concept from Recharge, that you can cast spells all day long, but not necessarily as many on a given encounter, this is what I came up with.  
In the recharge system most spells can be cast a few rounds later, but some specific spells can only be cast every 5 min, hour or 24 hours later. That is only there to prevent certain spells from being abusive, but from what I’ve read for the Elements of Magic this does not seem to be such a problem.

You have do not have a daily MP limit, but each time you cast a spell, your available MP’s in the next round are reduced.  

MP	Loss
1	1
2	1
3	1
4	2
5	2
6	2
7	3
8	3
9	4
10	4
11	4
12	5
13	5
14	6
15	6
16	6
17	7
18	7
19	8
20	8

So if you’re level 5 and cast a spell for 5 MP then next round you would only be able to cast a spell for up to 3 MP.  1 round after you have cast a spell you recover 1 MP.  
So on the 1st round you cast 5 MP, for the next round you can cast a max of 3 MP, +1 at the end of that round.  From levels 10-19 you recover 2 MP at the end of a round, and 3 for levels 20+.


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## Blue mage for hire2

Hellooo?  Ranger Wickett? Rules Master? Anyone? Hello? Is everyone just leaving all this anxiously waiting fans hang here?  

....................I'm so lonely.


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## Blue mage for hire2

Dearly beloved, we are gathered here today to mourn the death of this thread.  It was a good thread, a hopeful thread, a thread that made us all think and dream.  Let us now have a moment of silence as we remeber this topic for what it was.


We are now accepting any eulogies anyone would like to post.


(Psst. this is all one big joke, so nobody get to offended.  I don't even take my working life seriously, why should I take my leuisure time?)


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## Verequus

Blue mage for hire2 said:
			
		

> Hellooo? Ranger Wickett? Rules Master? Anyone? Hello? Is everyone just leaving all this anxiously waiting fans hang here?
> 
> ....................I'm so lonely.



Ehm, there is one misunderstanding, Blue Mage, I'm not affiliated with EN Publishing, I'm a fan, too. I only helped RangerWickett with comments about things I've noticed in the first published teaser and he sent me after my question the now outdated workcopy which I commented, too. That's why I know so much about the system. And for the "dead" thread: I'm collecting some questions.


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## W.Rose

I had a quick question about the classes that were going to be in the book.  I was wondering if Green Mage and the other color mages were making it into this new product.  Thanks for the answer.


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## Blue mage for hire2

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO! 
LIVE THREAD, LIVE, DAMN YOU!
LIVE!  Can anyone cast HEAL FORUM spells at 9 mp!? I NEED HELP OUT HERE!

(voice abruptly turns less dramatic and displays less sincere emotion)Anyway, I'm here to offer some limited help for all of you who are stockpiling questions about the application of the rules.  I should mention that I'm have no authority of E.N. Publishing.  Here's the help I can offer:

1. The color mages might work like this:
Black mage Functions: Abjure (E), Abjure (C), Abjure (A), Charm (C), Compel (C), Create (E), Evoke (E), Heal (E), Illusion (E), Infuse (E), Move (E), Summon (C), Transform (E), Transform (C). Elements: Fire, Lava, Earth, Ooze(or Mud, or Sand,etc.), Water, Ice, Air, Lightning, Force. Alignments: Good, Evil, Neutral, Law, Chaos. Creatures: Elemental, Construct.
White mage Functions: Abjure (C), Abjure (E), Charm (C), Compel (C), Create (E), Evoke (E), Heal (E), Illusion (E), Infuse (E), Move (E), Summon (C), Transform (E), Transform (C).  Elements & Creatures: See original EOM.
Green mage Elements & Creatures: See White mage.  Functions: Abjure (C), Abjure (E), Charm (C), Compel (C), Create (E), Evoke (E), Heal (E), Illusion (E), Infuse (E), Move (E), Summon (C), Transforom (C), Transform (E).
Red and Grey Mage: Abjure(E), Abjure (C), Create (E), Evoke (E), Heal (E), Illusion (E), Infuse (E), Move (E), Summon (C), Transform (C), Transform (E).
Elements and Creatures: See original EOM, add Outsider and Elemental creatures, lose Outsider types (which don't exist in the new EOM)

2. It's perfectly fine to add whatever you want to the system to meet the needs of your game, if you've noticed, the Color mages don't have any Space or Time spells! You can add your own Time mage, make space/time magic a skill, even make it as a benefit to one of these new "traditions."  Besides, the ultimate fact is: if you don't like the rules, change them!  I'm thinking of ditching alignment in my game, maybe with the exceptions of outsiders.  Just be sure to tell your players about changes to printed systems (which you will do when you introduce EOM in to your 3.5 edition D&D players who are used to sorcerers and clerics.)

oh yeah, I'm also using wild spellcraft people who wanna multiclass conflicted schools of magic.


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## RangerWickett

The colored mages will not be revised, but the updated Mage class is flexible enough that it should let you recreate them if you'd like.

Our official goal is to have _Elements of Magic_ on sale on April 20th.  The book has been split up, so that all the core rules will be in _Elements_, and then optional rules and sample ways to use the rules for differet campaigns will be released in _Lyceian Arcana_, which should be out a month afterward.


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## mbgrove

*Yes!!  A date!!*

Now, as positively excited as I am to actually have a REAL LIVE EXPECTED RELEASE DATE (!!!!!!!!), I also am aware (all too well) of reality and how they often don't mesh with our hopes.  ::wry smile::   (I'm a programmer, so I know /all/ about deadlines and the nice whooshing sounds they make as they go by.  
 )

At the VERY least, I'm excited to see that Elements are in the last stages of things and that we'll hopefully get to see it soon.  Thanks RangerWicket!!  

I am wondering, though.  At first, the revised EoM was going to be a PDF.  Then it was going to be a book (I think).  So...  I suppose my main questions are, will both of them be PDFs?  Books?  One is will be a PDF, the other a printed?

Thanks!

Michael B. Grove
If at first you don't succeed, perhaps skydiving is not for you.


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## Blue mage for hire2

Hey, what about character sheets?

I mean, since the magic system relies on magic points, and such inventions as signature spells and spell lists....It'd be nice to have a spell caster sheet to go along with it all for us to make copies of.  

I could try to hunt down a sheet that uses spell points, but they never quite get it right....There's too much other clutter to ruin it as an effective sheet.

I mean, look at this!:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=Spell+points+character+sheet

Anyway, its good to see the Book is coming out soon. I can't wait!^_^


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## Verequus

Hi!

Here is now my collection of questions:

-What do you think of my base spell concept? (See post #66) I saw something similar in the revised psionics articles. Interestingly, the revised psionics seem to be akin enough to the revised EoM, so things like the psionic focus or other psionic feats can be used without changing them except the 
terminology.
-Can Dispel Magic on area spells dispel only a part of the affected spell? Suppose, someone casts a wall of fire, will his spell dispelled all at once or only the area, where the dispel spell works?
-Can somehow the permanent destruction of a soul achieved, so no resurrection will work?
-Is it possible to target a clones of a magic user at once, even if only one of the clones is in line of sight (and no others are in the area)? Or has the transform spell to be dispelled first? Mages clone themselves before every battle and have the lich phylactery effect at the cost of one spell.
-Makes the missing cost of resurrection death more a small game break instead a real threat?
-How are Spellcraft checks affected, if one or both components aren't recognizeable? Is there a possibility to recognize the casting of simultanously stilled and silent spell?
-Exist still all types of magic items? Also scrolls? Are those the XP price worth, because these can be easily simulated through spells from books, except one don't have to pay MPs? If there is no Read Magic, how are spells written down? In rhymes? Or unintelligible words, so one has only to understand 
the alphabet and the language normally used by the wizard (we all use the latin alphabet but pronounciate differently)?
-If someone has protected himself against scrying, where is the line, which differentiates the success or failure of a question? Suppose following situation: A mage is in a tavern, while someone tries to find out his location. Version 1: "Where is [insert name]?". Version 2: "Is there someone, who looks 
without using magic or mundane methods for disguise like [insert name]? If yes, where is he?" Is version 2 prohibited?
-Suppose one certain spell has four spell lists barring General. How many spell lists one has to know to get a bonus for his Dispel check? Does one list suffice as a key or a open weakness for the spell to counter?
-If your mind has been changed through a Transform spell, what knowledge do you have? Suppose that someone has now the mind of an orc. Did he forget his old friends? Has he an alibi story why he is here and not with his friends?
-Can spell lists be forgotten through level drain?
-Share Spells with Familiars isn't quite as effective as in the core rules: There is no range of "You" in EoM. What is the solution? Allowing every spell with touch range? This means that every spell, one can cast, can be changed to a touch version and is so applicable.
-[Exalted] and [Vile] spells in EoM: How can these one created?
-Transform spell: Retain subjects their own ex-, su- and sp-abilities?
-Is there a possibility to create an instant permanent curse with only the casting of a spell (and donating the XPs, of course)?
-Where lie the limits of contingencies? Can they used as a scry-replacement ("Activate the effect, if the prince of Valhorn is attacked!")? Or need they the Scrying skill? If so, how about the rule, that contingencies can do what the caster can be aware of with assumed natural 20s for rolling skills? It would be better, if one can assume the Blindsight ability for the caster, so blind beings don't have a disadvantage. The same is valid for other senses.
-RangerWickett, you don't use class skills in your home games. Are you and your players happy with this rule or lurk some unseen problem behind that decision?
-Regarding the EoM-SRD: I have spent some thoughts about that. I believe, the new subforum should be structured like that: One thread for feats, for new classes and for spells one for every letter of the alphabet for reference only. Discussions about the content should be in separate threads which mirror the reference threads, so approved content (only regarding error-free, balanced stuff and no censoring beyound Eric's Grandma) has simply to be copied by volunteers. Copies shouldn't have an entry regarding the authorship, but at the end of the feats/classes/spells there should a be list of the authors -  if I use the spells I don't want to read such a entry all the time, but for questions is such information important, at least if there is not a standard use of spell lists and similar.

Such a structure has the following problems:
1. The volunteers would need moderator privileges for the forum only.
2. The topics aren't the right order for quick searching - its even worse trough the discussion threads. Either the EoM-SRD and discussion threads are in a seperate forums or the SRD threads are pinned (Can pinned threads change their position among themselves?).

RangerWickett, what do you think about it?


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## specks

I have one question:

Will the Elements of Magic be compatible for epic play?


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## RangerWickett

Not as far as I know.  As I don't have the epic level handbook, and I had limited space in the book, it only covers levels 1 to 20.  I'm sure you could probably extrapolate effects available beyond 20th level, since the spells are constructed point by point.  

However, as I've recently learned, there are some oddities of epic-level play that I hadn't considered, like apparently epic level items cost x10 what they would normally, rather arbitrarily.  The magic item rules in EOM allow for somewhat epic items, like +11 swords, and they don't cost x11.

You could probably extrapolate beyond 20th level, but a few changes would probably be necessary.


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## Thanatos

whats the latest status on this anyway?


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## RangerWickett

It's in layout right now.  The layout artist is saying it should be ready either Friday or Monday.


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## torem13

RangerWickett,

A couple of question. 

Will this first book be pdf, printed or both? Same for the second book.

Second, I bought the original pdf a while ago, Are there any discounts for buying version 1.0? 

Thanks, I look forward to seeing the new complete EoM when it is released.


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## Thanatos

Wonderful  Thanks for the update.


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## RangerWickett

torem13 said:
			
		

> RangerWickett,
> 
> A couple of question.
> 
> Will this first book be pdf, printed or both? Same for the second book.
> 
> Second, I bought the original pdf a while ago, Are there any discounts for buying version 1.0?
> 
> Thanks, I look forward to seeing the new complete EoM when it is released.




Right now, just pdf.

Due to the vastness of the revision for this version, there is no discount for people who bought the first edition.  You're welcome to download the freebie sample on the ENPublishing site (www.enworld.org/enpublishing), to see if you like the way we've revised the system.

Finally, here's the cover image.  You get to see this before we actually post an official press release.  *grin*


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## Blue mage for hire2

*compulsively bows to the cover and begins to chant in toungues he doesn't understand.*

(in between bows) So.....do you.....think....you....WILL.....be.....done.....by Friday or.......Monday?

*Stands to get out his human sacrificing knife*

EEEEEEEEOOOOOMMM, EEEEEEEEEEOOOOOMMM........

*accidently cuts himself, breaking the spell somehow*

OW! Holy Frack!

* looks at the bloody mess he made of Kenny from south park*


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## Blue mage for hire2

by the way, that was meant to be a compliment, (shifts eyes) although it might have just plain revealed dark, primal secrets the likes of which should never see the glow of broad daylight.  So, anyway in an attempt to do it properly without freaking any more people out, I'd like to say that it rocks. Its good to see the expectations of us all for over half a year finally reveal itself in a tangible form.  To be honest I miss the bright colors of the original cover and despite the fact that while the basic elements were the only ones that had "goddesses/spirits/elementals" on the other cover, there were the positive and para-elements as well as Life represented on the older EOM, sorta visualizing the "sphere of elements."  
However, the elements are not (quite) connected that same way anymore, and I think that the physics and human preportions are


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## Blue mage for hire2

ah nuts! I somehow posted prematurely!
anyway what I was saying is that the elemental spirits were drawn more accutely to real people than the paper dolls of the earlier Eom, and the fact that they aren't tied to the "sphere" anymore means they are free to: a) interact and interpostion with the others, b) stop making us dizzy by wondering which way is up, c) create the illusion of motion.  Very well done.


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## Kemrain

I'm warming up my Credit Card. I assume, since it is friday now, that it will be available on Monday. Six days after the date you hoped to have it out isn't bad at all, and I'm glad to see it so close to completion.  I eagerly await the release.  I know I'll buy a copy right away.

- Kemrain the Eager.


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## Suldulin

Kemrain said:
			
		

> Six days after the date you hoped to have it out isn't bad at all.




Heh, espeically when compared to events such as steam and steel. . .


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## Blue mage for hire2

Yes, I can hardly wait to start telling elves that I don't understand "their thick-headed generation" without looking a day over 160, er, 16, and throwing soceity into pandemonium by randomly altering everyones ages so that those simple peons don't know what's what.  And thats just what I'll do with my transform time spells!  I even think I've come up with an alternative hit point system using magic points to and extent. (of course, that could just be me using the "mp switch" ability while playing Final Fantasy tactics too much.


----------

