# Double-Yikes: 2000 posts?!



## Rystil Arden (Apr 21, 2005)

So on April 8, I delighted you all with my "Yikes! Is this my 1000th post already?" thread. Now I will make you arch your eyebrows in concern for my sanity by less than two weeks later posting this new thread. Does anyone know what's wrong with me?  

Cheers!
~Rystil


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Apr 21, 2005)

...I still think its just because you quote everything said before you in completely new threads. You're not a posting machine, you just don't know how to put mulitple Quotes in one post!


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## Darkness (Apr 21, 2005)

I blame Piratecat.


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 21, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> ...I still think its just because you quote everything said before you in completely new threads. You're not a posting machine, you just don't know how to put mulitple Quotes in one post!



 Naw.  I used to do that but people complained about my blocky text with quotes for ten different people in the same post.  I found that most people did it the other way, so I switched up.  You should see some of my early posts; they were long


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 21, 2005)

Darkness said:
			
		

> I blame Piratecat.



 Why is it Piratecat's fault?  I don't think I've ever even had the pleasure of joining in a discussion with Piratecat yet...


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## Angel Tarragon (Apr 21, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> So on April 8, I delighted you all with my "Yikes!  Is this my 1000th post already?" thread.  Now I will make you arch your eyebrows in concern for my sanity by less than two weeks later posting this new thread.  Does anyone know what's wrong with me?



Meh.


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## Angel Tarragon (Apr 21, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> ...I still think its just because you quote everything said before you in completely new threads. You're not a posting machine, you just don't know how to put mulitple Quotes in one post!



This could very well be the case.


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## Angel Tarragon (Apr 21, 2005)

Darkness said:
			
		

> I blame Piratecat.



Whats he got to do with it?


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## Angel Tarragon (Apr 21, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Naw.  I used to do that but people complained about my blocky text with quotes for ten different people in the same post.  I found that most people did it the other way, so I switched up.  You should see some of my early posts; they were long



Agreed.


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## Angel Tarragon (Apr 21, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Why is it Piratecat's fault?  I don't think I've ever even had the pleasure of joining in a discussion with Piratecat yet...



Yeah, why is it Piratecats fault?


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 21, 2005)

::whistles and points up at the last five posts as case-in-point::


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## Angel Tarragon (Apr 21, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> ::whistles and points up at the last five posts as case-in-point::



whats that?


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 21, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> whats that?



 That a series of quick responses to each comment, rather than a consolidated block of quotes, is the norm


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## Angel Tarragon (Apr 21, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> That a series of quick responses to each comment, rather than a consolidated block of quotes, is the norm



Ah, yes, quite so!


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## Crothian (Apr 21, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Why is it Piratecat's fault?  I don't think I've ever even had the pleasure of joining in a discussion with Piratecat yet...




You are not worthy!!  But don't feel bad, either am I.


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## Jdvn1 (Apr 21, 2005)

Well, your post count has jumped a lot since you started posting on the OT forum...


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Apr 21, 2005)

Anyone else kind of scared that we've reached the point that "I blame Piratecat" no longer makes sense to many users...?


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## Kemrain (Apr 21, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Anyone else kind of scared that we've reached the point that "I blame Piratecat" no longer makes sense to many users...?



...Should it?

- Kemrain the Confused and Not *That* New...


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## Torm (Apr 21, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Anyone else kind of scared that we've reached the point that "I blame Piratecat" no longer makes sense to many users...?



Not scared. Disappointed. And I blame Piratecat.


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## MonsterMash (Apr 21, 2005)

Darkness said:
			
		

> I blame Piratecat.



I blame Crothian


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## Crothian (Apr 21, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Well, your post count has jumped a lot since you started posting on the OT forum...




that is the usual way of doing things these days


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## Crothian (Apr 21, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> ...Should it?
> 
> - Kemrain the Confused and Not *That* New...




obviously new enough...you still have the smell


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## Crothian (Apr 21, 2005)

MonsterMash said:
			
		

> I blame Crothian




blame the Hivemind


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## MonsterMash (Apr 21, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> That a series of quick responses to each comment, rather than a consolidated block of quotes, is the norm



Isn't that rather lazy though - after all cutting and pasting into one massive reply post is possible, but of course only equals one extra monkey!


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## MonsterMash (Apr 21, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Well, your post count has jumped a lot since you started posting on the OT forum...



Hasn't everyones?


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## MonsterMash (Apr 21, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> blame the Hivemind



We're all the Hivemind, so that'd be blaming yourself!


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## MonsterMash (Apr 21, 2005)

Anyway congratulations on 2000 posts - only 1000 more for third level!


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## Kemrain (Apr 21, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> obviously new enough...you still have the smell



But.. I showered! It was really hot! and I used soap.. I rinsed and repeated! I've got 1,000 posts... I'm not new..

- Kemrian the Sobbing.


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## Torm (Apr 21, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> But.. I showered! It was really hot! and I used soap.. I rinsed and repeated! I've got 1,000 posts... I'm not new..
> 
> - Kemrian the Sobbing.



Wait - is adding "new smell" back to you part of the transitioning process?


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## IronWolf (Apr 21, 2005)

Time to step away from the keyboard!


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## Kemrain (Apr 21, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Wait - is adding "new smell" back to you part of the transitioning process?



While *those* smells *do* change (and I've been told mine have), I don't think body odor is exactly what Crothian was talking about, Torm.

- Kemrain the Amused and Blushing.


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## Crothian (Apr 21, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> But.. I showered! It was really hot! and I used soap.. I rinsed and repeated! I've got 1,000 posts... I'm not new..
> 
> - Kemrian the Sobbing.




you showeered in new poster smell


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## Jdvn1 (Apr 21, 2005)

MonsterMash said:
			
		

> Hasn't everyones?



Well, but the first 1000 was more impressive because it was very little OT.  The next thousand... he's just like everyone else now.


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## Crothian (Apr 21, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Well, but the first 1000 was more impressive because it was very little OT.  The next thousand... he's just like everyone else now.




ya, it is a shame when people fail to become individuals....


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## Jdvn1 (Apr 21, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> But.. I showered! It was really hot!



... Maybe it's the smell of burning?


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## Jdvn1 (Apr 21, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> ya, it is a shame when people fail to become individuals....



Well, it also causes the Hivemind to grow.


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## Crothian (Apr 21, 2005)

hivemind has never needed help before


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## Kemrain (Apr 21, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> you showeered in new poster smell



New poster smells like Suave?!

- Kemrain the Startled.


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## Kemrain (Apr 21, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> ... Maybe it's the smell of burning?



While I know hot water can burn you, I'd be suprised if it made a (detectable by humans) smell unless it was prolonged exposure (ala: boiling a chicken)... and it wasn't THAT hot.. I mean, I turned the cold knob a little...

- Kemrain the Pink and Undercooked.


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## Crothian (Apr 21, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> New poster smells like Suave?!
> 
> - Kemrain the Startled.




it is a less obvious smell


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## Kemrain (Apr 21, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> it is a less obvious smell



I don't know where you're going with this, and I'm afraid to...

- Kemrain the Hesitant.


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## Jdvn1 (Apr 21, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> hivemind has never needed help before



So?  Improvement isn't welcome?


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## Jdvn1 (Apr 21, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> I don't know where you're going with this, and I'm afraid to...
> 
> - Kemrain the Hesitant.



Be afraid.  Be very afraid.







Of, y'know, scary things that can kill you.  Not of us.


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## Jdvn1 (Apr 21, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> While I know hot water can burn you, I'd be suprised if it made a (detectable by humans) smell unless it was prolonged exposure (ala: boiling a chicken)... and it wasn't THAT hot.. I mean, I turned the cold knob a little...
> 
> - Kemrain the Pink and Undercooked.



Oh, you didn't specify.


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## Crothian (Apr 21, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> I don't know where you're going with this, and I'm afraid to...
> 
> - Kemrain the Hesitant.




then don't....


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## Crothian (Apr 21, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> So?  Improvement isn't welcome?




what improvment??


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## Jdvn1 (Apr 21, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> what improvment??



The more the merrier?


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## Kemrain (Apr 21, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Oh, you didn't specify.



Sorry.

- Kemrain the Specific.


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## Kemrain (Apr 21, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Be afraid.  Be very afraid.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ok.

- Kemrain the One-Word-Poster.

Hay, of Crothian can do it....


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## Jdvn1 (Apr 21, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> Sorry.
> 
> - Kemrain the Specific.



I think I'll be able to find it somewhere in my heart to forgive you.  This one time.


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## Jdvn1 (Apr 21, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> Ok.
> 
> - Kemrain the One-Word-Poster.
> 
> Hay, of Crothian can do it....





(can I join the fun?)


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## Kemrain (Apr 21, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> The more the merrier?




- Kemrain the "You said it Yourself."


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## Crothian (Apr 21, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> The more the merrier?




it was never about quantity of posters.....


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## Crothian (Apr 21, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> Hay, of Crothian can do it....




life isn't fair, so just cause i can do it.....


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## Jdvn1 (Apr 21, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> it was never about quantity of posters.....



Well, quality is what matters.  But 100 quality posts is better than 10.


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## Crothian (Apr 21, 2005)

it is also about the people, in fact it has always been about the people


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## Jdvn1 (Apr 21, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> it is also about the people, in fact it has always been about the people



Well,  yes.  I was going to say "100 quality people is better than 10 quality people" but I didn't think it sounded right.  In theory, quality people are more likely to make quality posts, though.


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## Kemrain (Apr 21, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Well,  yes.  I was going to say "100 quality people is better than 10 quality people" but I didn't think it sounded right.  In theory, quality people are more likely to make quality posts, though.



"100 quality people _are_ better than 10 quality people" comes off better.

- Kemrain the Gramatical.

Though it does seem like you're trying to quantify quality with a number...

- Kemrain the Numeric.


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## Jdvn1 (Apr 21, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> "100 quality people _are_ better than 10 quality people" comes off better.
> 
> - Kemrain the Gramatical.



Grammar, Grammatical.  



			
				Kemrain said:
			
		

> Though it does seem like you're trying to quantify quality with a number...
> 
> - Kemrain the Numeric.



Well, not _necessarily_.  I'm just saying more quality is better than less quality.


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## Kemrain (Apr 21, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Grammar, Grammatical.



Yeah, like I *totally* didn't do that on purpose...

- Kemrain the Guilty Guilty Guilty.


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## Torm (Apr 21, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> Though it does seem like you're trying to quantify quality with a number...



Right, and if you're going to do that, you need to give a number to the quality of each person, as well. 100 10-rated quality people may be better than 10 10-rated quality people, but 100 1-rated quality people should theoretically be the same, by the numbers. Only, they aren't. This whole thing doesn't work. Needs of the many? Needs of the one? Subjective and situational.


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## Kemrain (Apr 21, 2005)

So, does Torm believe in the needs ofthe many, or the needs of the one? Probably the former, being *Lawful* Good...

- Kemrain the Speculative.


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## Jdvn1 (Apr 21, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> Yeah, like I *totally* didn't do that on purpose...
> 
> - Kemrain the Guilty Guilty Guilty.



Speling iz gud, Kemrayn!


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## Darkness (Apr 21, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Anyone else kind of scared that we've reached the point that "I blame Piratecat" no longer makes sense to many users...?



 For real, mate. Kids these days...


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## Torm (Apr 21, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> So, does Torm believe in the needs ofthe many, or the needs of the one? Probably the former, being *Lawful* Good...
> 
> - Kemrain the Speculative.



Not always - remember, the needs of the many ARE the needs of a whole bunch of ones.


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## Kemrain (Apr 21, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Speling iz gud, Kemrayn!



Do you NEED to mock me like that, JDiv?

- Kemrayn the Over Emotional.


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## Jdvn1 (Apr 21, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> Do you NEED to mock me like that, JDiv?
> 
> - Kemrayn the Over Emotional.



Do I need to?  I dunno, close call.

It _is_ fun, though.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Apr 21, 2005)

Darkness said:
			
		

> For real, mate. Kids these days...



 Its all the music...stupid kids and their music...


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## Kemrain (Apr 21, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Do I need to?  I dunno, close call.
> 
> It _is_ fun, though.



Wish *I* could mock me and have fun... Damb you, JDiv! Damb you!

- Kemrayn the Dambed.


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## Angel Tarragon (Apr 21, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Its all the music...stupid kids and their music...



Hey, I'm 29 and I still enjoy *loud* music.


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## Kemrain (Apr 21, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Its all the music...stupid kids and their music...



What if I listen to older music?

- Kemrayn the Beatles Fan.


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## Angel Tarragon (Apr 21, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> Kemrayn the Beatles Fan.



<turns the volume up on his Guns n' Roses music>
*WHAT*, I can't hear you!


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## Crothian (Apr 21, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> Wish *I* could mock me and have fun... Damb you, JDiv! Damb you!
> 
> - Kemrayn the Dambed.




is the mockingh for just him, or can anyone jion in?

- Crothian the doesn't want to be left out


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## Crothian (Apr 21, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> What if I listen to older music?
> 
> - Kemrayn the Beatles Fan.




only if its Abbey Road


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## Kemrain (Apr 21, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> <turns the volume up on his Guns n' Roses music>
> *WHAT*, I can't hear you!



GnR have a few good songs, but I'm not much of a fan of Axle's singing voice.. He sounds like he just got kicked in the junk.

- Kemrain the Disaprover of Singing in Falsetto.


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## Kemrain (Apr 21, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> is the mockingh for just him, or can anyone jion in?
> 
> - Crothian the doesn't want to be left out



No.. No.. Anyone can mock me.. Free of charge.. I really should start charging, though.

- Kemrayn the Poor. Poor Kemrain.


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## Angel Tarragon (Apr 21, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> GnR have a few good songs, but I'm not much of a fan of Axle's singing voice.. He sounds like he just got kicked in the junk.



Thats what I like about it.


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## Kemrain (Apr 21, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> only if its Abbey Road



I like the white Album, too.

- Kemrain the Doing it in the Road.


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## Crothian (Apr 21, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> No.. No.. Anyone can mock me.. Free of charge.. I really should start charging, though.
> 
> - Kemrayn the Poor. Poor Kemrain.





Excellent

- Crothian the Burns


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## Angel Tarragon (Apr 21, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> - Kemrain the Doing it in the Road.


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## Crothian (Apr 21, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> I like the white Album, too.
> 
> - Kemrain the Doing it in the Road.




White's good, but Abbey Road is my favorite of theirs


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## Kemrain (Apr 21, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> Thats what I like about it.



You're right.. I should let myself enjoy the menmtal image of kicking him in the junk..

- Kemrayn the Violent.


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## Kemrain (Apr 21, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> White's good, but Abbey Road is my favorite of theirs



I like Abbey Road lots, too.  Made me look up what Polythene was.

- Kemrayn the Googler.


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## Jdvn1 (Apr 21, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> Wish *I* could mock me and have fun... Damb you, JDiv! Damb you!
> 
> - Kemrayn the Dambed.



Fun for the whole family!


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## Jdvn1 (Apr 21, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> <turns the volume up on his Guns n' Roses music>
> *WHAT*, I can't hear you!



They're cool, but I can't stand Axel Rose's voice...


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## Crothian (Apr 21, 2005)

_when I smile tell me some bad news before I laugh and act like a fool_


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## Angel Tarragon (Apr 21, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Fun for the whole family!



The whole damn family!


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## Crothian (Apr 21, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> The whole damn family!




that poor poor family....


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## Angel Tarragon (Apr 21, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> that poor poor family....



They're not poor if they're visiting the Hoover Dam!


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## Jdvn1 (Apr 21, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> They're not poor if they're visiting the Hoover Dam!



Poor, poor Hoover...


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## Angel Tarragon (Apr 21, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Poor, poor Hoover...


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## Crothian (Apr 21, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> They're not poor if they're visiting the Hoover Dam!




you said "damn family" so if the family is damned, I pity them


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## Crothian (Apr 21, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Poor, poor Hoover...




there was a girl in high school we called hoover.....


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## Torm (Apr 21, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> _when I smile tell me some bad news before I laugh and act like a fool_



Um.... Who?

L....I....M....P.....discover.


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## Jdvn1 (Apr 21, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> there was a girl in high school we called hoover.....



Golly, Crothian, why was that?


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## Torm (Apr 21, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> White's good, but Abbey Road is my favorite of theirs



Penny Lane was in my ears, and in my heart.


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## Crothian (Apr 21, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Um.... Who?
> 
> L....I....M....P.....discover.




they did a terrible cover!!!  It was just bad, really really bad


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## Crothian (Apr 21, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Golly, Crothian, why was that?




Maybe when you're older, you'll understand.  At any rate not on these boards.....


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## Torm (Apr 21, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> They're cool, but I can't stand Axel Rose's voice...



I think Axel Rose was vastly underrespected. "November Rain", "Patience", and "Sweet Child of Mine" are absolute CLASSICS.

But my favorite thing about Axel is the conversation they had about him in the movie, "Empire Records."


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## Jdvn1 (Apr 21, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Maybe when you're older, you'll understand.  At any rate not on these boards.....



She wasn't a fan of vacuuming?


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## Jdvn1 (Apr 21, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> I think Axel Rose was vastly underrespected. "November Rain", "Patience", and "Sweet Child of Mine" are absolute CLASSICS.
> 
> But my favorite thing about Axel is the conversation they had about him in the movie, "Empire Records."



Eh.  I like the songs, in general.  I think they'd be better without Axel Rose, though.


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## Kemrain (Apr 21, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Um.... Who?
> 
> L....I....M....P.....discover.



Guess now we know the color of Torm's eyes..

- Kemrayn the Suprised to have Gotten a Reference.


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## Crothian (Apr 21, 2005)

GnR had some classic hits, a band that big and that popular is always going to have some .  He hasd a unique sound and I think that helped.


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## Torm (Apr 21, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> Guess now we know the color of Torm's eyes..



_The Bluest Eyes In Texas are haunting me tonight....._


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## Darkness (Apr 21, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> I think Axel Rose was vastly underrespected. "November Rain", "Patience", and "Sweet Child of Mine" are absolute CLASSICS.



 Maybe that had, in part, to do with his behavior. 

Anyway, GnR were good in their days.


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 21, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> So on April 8, I delighted you all with my "Yikes!  Is this my 1000th post already?" thread.  Now I will make you arch your eyebrows in concern for my sanity by less than two weeks later posting this new thread.  Does anyone know what's wrong with me?
> 
> Cheers!
> ~Rystil





You have no life?   

::laffs at Rystil::


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 21, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> ...I still think its just because you quote everything said before you in completely new threads. You're not a posting machine, you just don't know how to put mulitple Quotes in one post!




I don't do that either. I'd rather make the posts easier to read.


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 21, 2005)

Darkness said:
			
		

> I blame Piratecat.





I blame Henry and his minion, Torm.


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 21, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Anyone else kind of scared that we've reached the point that "I blame Piratecat" no longer makes sense to many users...?




I guess that's the case for us newer posters who have no clue...


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 21, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> While *those* smells *do* change (and I've been told mine have), I don't think body odor is exactly what Crothian was talking about, Torm.
> 
> - Kemrain the Amused and Blushing.




I don't think that's what Torm's talking about either......   

Just remember, he's Pepe Le Pew and you're his "skunk"......


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 21, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> ya, it is a shame when people fail to become individuals....




"Feel Like A Number" -- Bob Seger


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 21, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> ... Maybe it's the smell of burning?




That's what he gets for snuggling against an ooze.....


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 21, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> I don't know where you're going with this, and I'm afraid to...
> 
> - Kemrain the Hesitant.




I think he's got the hots for you.....


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 21, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> So, does Torm believe in the needs ofthe many, or the needs of the one? Probably the former, being *Lawful* Good...
> 
> - Kemrain the Speculative.




Didn't you know that Torm was a Vulcan? And it's time for that "seven year itch" to kick in?


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 21, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Um.... Who?
> 
> L....I....M....P.....discover.




  

And I liked the remake.


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## Kemrain (Apr 21, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> I don't think that's what Torm's talking about either......
> 
> Just remember, he's Pepe Le Pew and you're his "skunk"......



What is this strange feeling of forboding..?

- Kemrayn the Afraid, the Very Afraid.


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## Kemrain (Apr 21, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> I think he's got the hots for you.....



I'd kill me now, but I need to become Chaotic Evil first, so I go far, far away from him...

- Kemrayn the Forced Unto Bane?


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 21, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> What is this strange feeling of forboding..?
> 
> - Kemrayn the Afraid, the Very Afraid.




You should be afraid..... once he "latches on", he won't let go! 

He's a tenacious bastard like that.


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## Kemrain (Apr 21, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> You should be afraid..... once he "latches on", he won't let go!
> 
> He's a tenacious bastard like that.



...

- Kemrain the "Eep!"


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 21, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> I'd kill me now, but I need to become Chaotic Evil first, so I go far, far away from him...
> 
> - Kemrayn the Forced Unto Bane?





I don't think Bane would take kindly to being forced like that....  :\ 

You'd have to worship Cyric first.... Either way, Torm would be after you faster than Roscoe P. Coltraine on the Duke Boys...


----------



## Kemrain (Apr 21, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> I don't think Bane would take kindly to being forced like that....  :\
> 
> You'd have to worship Cyric first.... Either way, Torm would be after you faster than Roscoe P. Coltraine on the Duke Boys...



Y'know.. As if he's not bad enough.. At least Torm isn't making Dukes of Hazard references...

- Kemrain the Needing to Shower.. With Bleach!


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 21, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> Y'know.. As if he's not bad enough.. At least Torm isn't making Dukes of Hazard references...
> 
> - Kemrain the Needing to Shower.. With Bleach!




Give him time..... 

And you're gonna come out looking like Michael Jackson if you bathe with bleach!


----------



## Torm (Apr 21, 2005)

Kemrain is cool and all, but is way too much man for me.  

And Henry is MY minion.

I may be crazy, but I ain't dumb.


----------



## Kemrain (Apr 21, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> Give him time.....
> 
> And you're gonna come out looking like Michael Jackson if you bathe with bleach!



Well, my face isn't messed up, but I'm about as pale as he is at this point..

- Kemrain the.. Um.. Pale.


----------



## Crothian (Apr 21, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> Well, my face isn't messed up, but I'm about as pale as he is at this point..
> 
> - Kemrain the.. Um.. Pale.




Vampire, the correct answer was Kemrain the Vampire


----------



## Kemrain (Apr 21, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Kemrain is cool and all, but is way too much man for me.



Oh, gee, *thanks*. *Make* a girl cry whydon'tcha?

- Kemrain the Smirking.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 21, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Kemrain is cool and all, but is way too much man for me.




  



> And Henry is MY minion.




Technicalities...



> I may be crazy, but I ain't dumb.




The whole thing being debatable in a non-Tyrran Court of Law....


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 21, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> Oh, gee, *thanks*. *Make* a girl cry whydon'tcha?
> 
> - Kemrain the Smirking.




*laffs*


----------



## Kemrain (Apr 21, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Vampire, the correct answer was Kemrain the Vampire



But.. I'm *not* a vampire.. I mean, my sig even says so.

- Kemrain the *Not* a Vampire. See?


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> But.. I'm *not* a vampire.. I mean, my sig even says so.
> 
> - Kemrain the *Not* a Vampire. See?




that's what all the vampires say.....


----------



## Kemrain (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> that's what all the vampires say.....



But.. I'm alive! If I were undead, my medication wouldn't do much.

- Kemrain the Living.


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> But.. I'm alive! If I were undead, my medication wouldn't do much.
> 
> - Kemrain the Living.




what medication?  Becasue soime of it does work on the unliving....um, don't ask how I know that......


----------



## Kemrain (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> what medication?  Becasue soime of it does work on the unliving....um, don't ask how I know that......



I.. uh.. Well.. I did say to you I was an open book.. I take Estradiol, 2mg once daily.

- Kemrain the "I Think I Spelt that Right," and Far too Lazy to Check the Bottle.


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

What's that for??


----------



## Kemrain (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> What's that for??



It's a synthetic estrogen. Given that I don't have ovaries, I need to take my hormones orally.

- Kemrain the Medicated.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 22, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> But.. I'm *not* a vampire.. I mean, my sig even says so.
> 
> - Kemrain the *Not* a Vampire. See?




Let's see if you can be turned or destroyed like that last vampire I ran into!


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 22, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> But.. I'm alive! If I were undead, my medication wouldn't do much.
> 
> - Kemrain the Living.




Using a few too many _Harm_ spells, haven't we?


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> what medication?  Becasue soime of it does work on the unliving....um, don't ask how I know that......




Max ranks in Knowledge: Religion will do that for ya...


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 22, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> It's a synthetic estrogen. Given that I don't have ovaries, I need to take my hormones orally.
> 
> - Kemrain the Medicated.




Surgery?

Now Pepe Le Pew's gonna come after ya, now that he knows you're a female.....


----------



## Kemrain (Apr 22, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> Surgery?
> 
> Now Pepe Le Pew's gonna come after ya, now that he knows you're a female.....



He knew already. And no, genetically. Never had 'em, never will. I'm not terribly bothered though.. My genes are too naughty word to allow me to breed.

- Kemrain the Anti-Breeder.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 22, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> He knew already. And no, genetically. Never had 'em, never will. I'm not terribly bothered though.. My genes are too naughty word to allow me to breed.
> 
> - Kemrain the Anti-Breeder.




There's too many idiotic kids out there without us adding anymore to the watered-down gene pool.


----------



## Kemrain (Apr 22, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> There's too many idiotic kids out there without us adding anymore to the watered-down gene pool.



Doesn't stop most people, though.  Such a shame. Humanity has no self control.

- Kemrain the Disapointed.


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

well, if it wouldn't be so fun.....


----------



## Jdvn1 (Apr 22, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> It's a synthetic estrogen. Given that I don't have ovaries, I need to take my hormones orally.
> 
> - Kemrain the Medicated.



Mine's T3 (or is it T4?).  Given that I don't have a (working) thyroid gland, I need to take my hormones orally.

- Jdvn1 the Also Medicated.


----------



## Kemrain (Apr 22, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Mine's T3 (or is it T4?).  Given that I don't have a (working) thyroid gland, I need to take my hormones orally.
> 
> - Jdvn1 the Also Medicated.



I'm sorry for your inconvienience, Joy Div. S'a pain, isn't it?

- Kemrain the Loving the Use of Sig.


----------



## Jdvn1 (Apr 22, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> I'm sorry for your inconvienience, Joy Div. S'a pain, isn't it?
> 
> - Kemrain the Loving the Use of Sig.



Well, yeah, but you get used to it too.  It just sucks on days I forget.

- Jdvn1 the Used.  To it.


----------



## Kemrain (Apr 22, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Well, yeah, but you get used to it too.  It just sucks on days I forget.
> 
> - Jdvn1 the Used.  To it.



When you forget.. Or simply being tied to a bottle... Sucks. 

Estrogen thickens blood, so I need to take a baby asprin with it, too. Might need to start taking Mood Stablizers, as well.

- Kemrain the Loopy.


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 22, 2005)

Hurray!  My thread has been hijacked by the Hivemind!  I looked back and was like, what?  146 replies?  But there were like 20 before.

Should I change the type to Hivemind?


----------



## Kemrain (Apr 22, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Hurray!  My thread has been hijacked by the Hivemind!  I looked back and was like, what?  146 replies?  But there were like 20 before.
> 
> Should I change the type to Hivemind?



Doesn't it make you feel special? I love seeing how many new posts my threads get each day. They're my babies. Yes, make this a Hive thread, and milk it until Darkness shuts it down or another thread takes dominance.

- Kemrain the Starter of Both Recent 'Alpha' Hivemind Threads.


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 22, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> Doesn't it make you feel special? I love seeing how many new posts my threads get each day. They're my babies. Yes, make this a Hive thread, and milk it until Darkness shuts it down or another thread takes dominance.
> 
> - Kemrain the Starter of Both Recent 'Alpha' Hivemind Threads.



 Hahaha.  I'm usually happier when there's a post to a PbP, but I guess we Hiveminders always think that PbPs are moving like molasses, eh?  Changing to Hivemind


----------



## Kemrain (Apr 22, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Hahaha.  I'm usually happier when there's a post to a PbP, but I guess we Hiveminders always think that PbPs are moving like molasses, eh?  Changing to Hivemind



Whee! 

I'm watching Futurama.. "An elephant that never forgets.. To kill!"  I love Cartoon Network..

- Kemrain: AKA Citizen Snips.


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Hahaha.  I'm usually happier when there's a post to a PbP, but I guess we Hiveminders always think that PbPs are moving like molasses, eh?  Changing to Hivemind




even my own games move rreally really slow.....but i blame the players


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> even my own games move rreally really slow.....but i blame the players



 I bet they'd move quickly if I was one of the players.  In my only current PbP where the GM hasn't disallowed me from posting IC, I won't let the game slow down unless we have to wait for the GM to roll something


----------



## Jdvn1 (Apr 22, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Hurray!  My thread has been hijacked by the Hivemind!  I looked back and was like, what?  146 replies?  But there were like 20 before.
> 
> Should I change the type to Hivemind?



We assimlate everything...!


----------



## Jdvn1 (Apr 22, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> When you forget.. Or simply being tied to a bottle... Sucks.
> 
> Estrogen thickens blood, so I need to take a baby asprin with it, too. Might need to start taking Mood Stablizers, as well.
> 
> - Kemrain the Loopy.



Baby asprin?  Aww, how cute.  

Yeah, that sucks.  But since it's a constant suckage, maybe I just phase it out.


----------



## Kemrain (Apr 22, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Baby asprin?  Aww, how cute.
> 
> Yeah, that sucks.  But since it's a constant suckage, maybe I just phase it out.



It's pretty easy.. I leave a 7 day pill box on my kitchen table, and I almost never miss a dose these days.

Yes, a baby asprin. It's small, orange flavored, and chewable. While orange flavored, they _taste_ like ass. Orange flavored ass.

- Kemrain the Bitter.


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Apr 22, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> It's pretty easy.. I leave a 7 day pill box on my kitchen table, and I almost never miss a dose these days.



Thats exactly how I remember to take my vitamins.


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> I bet they'd move quickly if I was one of the players.  In my only current PbP where the GM hasn't disallowed me from posting IC, I won't let the game slow down unless we have to wait for the GM to roll something




can you play Paranoia?


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> Thats exactly how I remember to take my vitamins.




I just have a morning ritual of water and vitamins in the morning.  Took a few days to get the hang of it but now I just do it.


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> can you play Paranoia?



 I'm going to guess that I _can_, but I've never read nor heard by word of mouth any of the appropriate sourcebooks/rules.


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> I just have a morning ritual of water and vitamins in the morning.  Took a few days to get the hang of it but now I just do it.



My ritual is coffee, vitamins, shower, email, ENWorld.


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> I'm going to guess that I _can_, but I've never read nor heard by word of mouth any of the appropriate sourcebooks/rules.




THat is actually the best way to get into Paranoia.  Paranoia is noty like other (non fun) games.  Understanding what is going on in the game is actually treason and it will get yuou killed.  In fact, touching the rule book is treasonious if you are not running a game.  THe fun of the game is in the ingorance of the character and players and the sense of trying to figure things out know ing you never really will.  It is an odd game, but if you go to any convnetions give it a shot.


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> My ritual is coffee, vitamins, shower, email, ENWorld.




mine is shower, e-mai, enworld, water, vitamins.  all the while with Sports Center on.


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> mine is shower, e-mai, enworld, water, vitamins.  all the while with Sports Center on.



you watch Sports Center while showering?


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> THat is actually the best way to get into Paranoia.  Paranoia is noty like other (non fun) games.  Understanding what is going on in the game is actually treason and it will get yuou killed.  In fact, touching the rule book is treasonious if you are not running a game.  THe fun of the game is in the ingorance of the character and players and the sense of trying to figure things out know ing you never really will.  It is an odd game, but if you go to any convnetions give it a shot.



 I've never gone to any Cons before.  I never really posted to any Messageboards either until someone said dumb things about dragons here and nobody told them they were wrong, in February, so I knew I had to do it.  I'm just a lurker


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> you watch Sports Center while showering?




no, I don't have line of sight but I can hear it


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> no, I don't have line of sight but I can hear it



 You can't target it with spells though.


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> I've never gone to any Cons before.  I never really posted to any Messageboards either until someone said dumb things about dragons here and nobody told them they were wrong, in February, so I knew I had to do it.  I'm just a lurker




You should goto conventions, you can talk to some great people and play in some good and some very bad games.  But it is a great way to expand your gaming style and improve your play.  And at the same time make you appricaite your own gaming group or learn to hate them.  You should also check out the Gamedays, the Boston guys seem to have at least one a year around here.  THose are usually a high er quality game especially if you get into a game with Piratecat.


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> You can't target it with spells though.




sure I can, the shower water can be used for scrying.


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> sure I can, the shower water can be used for scrying.



Scry my shiny metal     !


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> You should goto conventions, you can talk to some great people and play in some good and some very bad games.  But it is a great way to expand your gaming style and improve your play.  And at the same time make you appricaite your own gaming group or learn to hate them.  You should also check out the Gamedays, the Boston guys seem to have at least one a year around here.  THose are usually a high er quality game especially if you get into a game with Piratecat.



 I noticed the most recent Boston Gameday post.  I believe it is exactly one week after I leave Cambridge for Maryland to be a faculty member at a university there for the summer.


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> Scry my shiny metal     !





I am, it is neither red nor metal


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> sure I can, the shower water can be used for scrying.



 There's only a handful of spells you can use through a scry though, and offhand, I don't think any of them have any great effect on inanimate objects.


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> I noticed the most recent Boston Gameday post.  I believe it is exactly one week after I leave Cambridge for Maryland to be a faculty member at a university there for the summer.




dude, that's just bad luck.  There is a gameday down in that area as well more in Virgnia I think but some friends of mine from Maryland do goto it.  You can try that one.  And congrats on the Faculty posisiton.  Is it just the summer?


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> There's only a handful of spells you can use through a scry though, and offhand, I don't think any of them have any great effect on inanimate objects.




with enough sources for spells I'm sure I've got something


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> I am, it is neither red nor metal



And how would you know, you're not the one who sees everything through a blurry eye!


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> dude, that's just bad luck.  There is a gameday down in that area as well more in Virgnia I think but some friends of mine from Maryland do goto it.  You can try that one.  And congrats on the Faculty posisiton.  Is it just the summer?



 Just for the summer.  Faculty make less money than the student researcher position is required to pay, so they decided I'm faculty.  Still fun to tell it to my friends who go to UMCP...Maryland is so poor right now.  I think the Maryland Gameday already happened


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> with enough sources for spells I'm sure I've got something



 I don't know.  I've yet to see a supplement with spells that say "You can cast these spells through a scry or crystal ball."


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> And how would you know, you're not the one who sees everything through a blurry eye!




a little birdy told me....


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> I don't know.  I've yet to see a supplement with spells that say "You can cast these spells through a scry or crystal ball."




I'm sure thee are some out there but I can't say it has ever come up in my campaign.  the only crystal ball the players found they used to bowl with.  The wizard was not happy.


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> I'm sure thee are some out there but I can't say it has ever come up in my campaign. the only crystal ball the players found they used to bowl with. The wizard was not happy.



Hahahaha. That reminds me of the many misuses that the Frenzied Berserker has found for magic items IMC .


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> a little birdy told me....



And whos to say that I'm the one that told that birdy to tell you that, so that you wouldn't know the truth until now!!!! I do have levels in the druid class, you know!


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Hahahaha. That reminds me of the many misuses that the Frenzied Berserker has found for magic items IMC .




Ya, they are funny guys.


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> And whos to say that I'm the one that told that birdy to tell you that, so that you wouldn't know the truth until now!!!! I do have levels in the druid class, you know!




you have levels in the pseudo druid crap that exists in the PHB?  THe Celts cry over that insult every night.


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> you have levels in the pseudo druid crap that exists in the PHB?  THe Celts cry over that insult every night.



<proudly> YES, I DO!


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Ya, they are funny guys.



 We have lots of funny moments IMC...like when the Frenzied Berserker insisted on throwing levers and pushing buttons at random instead of letting the mage decipher the script...and it turned out that the machine he was fiddling with was the energy control module for the giant floating castle in which they were located...

Then there's the one about the 500-ft-long immovable rod...


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

sounds like a machine of lum the mad!!!


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> sounds like a machine of lum the mad!!!



 Not quite.  Although the same Frenzied Berserk _did_ find the machine of Lum the Mad...which resulted in a fight with the Mighty Servant of Leuko, and getting teleported to an island in the middle of the desert, and other things.  He eventually took that feat from Dragon that lets you roll twice on random tables and keep your favourite.

In this case, the machine was meant to allow the castle to use its energy for flight or as a weapon.  The FB activated the self-destruct system and then "upgraded" his self-destruct to a Fusion Blast and then an Antigenesis Wave through judicious selection when I told him 

"OK, you rolled 7 and 00.  So you can choose between powering down the self-destruct, or upgrading to an Antigenesis Wave"

"Oooooo, Anitgenesis Wave!"


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

you have to go with the anti genesis wave.....


----------



## Kemrain (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> you have to go with the anti genesis wave.....



How could this be an even remotely good thing?

- Kemrain the Rather Fond of Being.


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

my poll questions are getting odder and odder.....


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> How could this be an even remotely good thing?
> 
> - Kemrain the Rather Fond of Being.




depends on which side of the wave you are on


----------



## Kemrain (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> my poll questions are getting odder and odder.....



Example?

- Kemrain the Too Lazy to Look.


----------



## Kemrain (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> depends on which side of the wave you are on



If I were the last living thing in existance, I doubt I'd live long... unless I found a Twinky Factory.. Those things aren't even organic...

- Kemrain the Family Guy.


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> Example?
> 
> - Kemrain the Too Lazy to Look.




the new one is "Do you train your players?"


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> my poll questions are getting odder and odder.....



not really, they make perfect sense to me.


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> If I were the last living thing in existance, I doubt I'd live long... unless I found a Twinky Factory.. Those things aren't even organic...
> 
> - Kemrain the Family Guy.




but then Stewie would mutate and kill the town....


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> not really, they make perfect sense to me.




ya, but I'm not sure people think of what they do as training others.  we'll see


----------



## Kemrain (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> but then Stewie would mutate and kill the town....



Well, that won't happen if you don't burn all the guns I made from that useless irrigation system!

- Kemrain Griffin.


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Guns are bad......


----------



## Kemrain (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Guns are bad......



Yeah, say that in the wake of the stewie octopus deathwaves.

- Kemrain the Ironic.


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> you have to go with the anti genesis wave.....



 But see, he was Chaotic Good, so while the wave was in the midst of slaughtering an entire civilisation, he remembered his "The Fates" card from the DoMT and used that


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Apr 22, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> - Kemrain the Ironic.



Ironic or Iconic?


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> Yeah, say that in the wake of the stewie octopus deathwaves.
> 
> - Kemrain the Ironic.





Ironically enough, when faced in the very situation that is exactly what I said.


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> But see, he was Chaotic Good, so while the wave was in the midst of slaughtering an entire civilisation, he remembered his "The Fates" card from the DoMT and used that




i think that it could easily be argued that destroying civilization is a good thing


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Ironically enough, when faced in the very situation that is exactly what I said.



 How silly.  Weren't you supposed to be doing your villiage idiot duties?


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> How silly.  Weren't you supposed to be doing your villiage idiot duties?





sigh...they fired me.....


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> i think that it could easily be argued that destroying civilization is a good thing



 Destroying a civilisation of Good-aligned Phoenixkin with an Antigenesis Wave so they can't be reborn?


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> sigh...they fired me.....



now, why would they do that?


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> sigh...they fired me.....



 But I thought the mayor of New Quahog said you got to wave your penis at passers-by on Tuesdays.


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Destroying a civilisation of Good-aligned Phoenixkin with an Antigenesis Wave so they can't be reborn?




obviously they are not nature since natural beings dies and move on to the afterlife....since they ar enot natural they must be destroyed.


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> now, why would they do that?




I pied the mayor in the face


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> I pied the mayor in the face



D'OH!


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> obviously they are not nature since natural beings dies and move on to the afterlife....since they ar enot natural they must be destroyed.



That's not good. That's crazy neutral druid


----------



## Kemrain (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> I pied the mayor in the face



With a flavor he didn't like? Cuz, I mean, Peter wouldn't complain too hard if he liked the taste...

- Kemrain the Boggled.


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> That's not good. That's crazy neutral druid




undead are also not natural and it is okay to destroy them....so destroying other unnatural things is also good.  

And a CG barbarian might look at it as surviuval of the fittiest, since they were unable to survive what he did they obviously were not meant to live.  So taking them out is for the greater good, they were evolutionaryly wrong.


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> With a flavor he didn't like? Cuz, I mean, Peter wouldn't complain too hard if he liked the taste...
> 
> - Kemrain the Boggled.




it was a kelp flavored pie


----------



## Kemrain (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> I pied the mayor in the face



Given the earlier penis comment, I initially misread "Pied".

- Kemrain the Snickering.


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Apr 22, 2005)

post deleted.


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Apr 22, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> Given the earlier penis comment, I initially misread "Pied".
> 
> - Kemrain the Snickering.



How can you confuse *pied* with *peed*?!


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

seeing double!!


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> seeing double!!



rectified.


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

you can't just say "post deleted" you have to actually do it....


----------



## Kemrain (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> undead are also not natural and it is okay to destroy them....so destroying other unnatural things is also good.
> 
> And a CG barbarian might look at it as surviuval of the fittiest, since they were unable to survive what he did they obviously were not meant to live.  So taking them out is for the greater good, they were evolutionaryly wrong.



Totally not Good. Chaotic Neutral.

- Kemrain the Shouldn't Be Talking...


----------



## Kemrain (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> it was a kelp flavored pie



I like kelp.. Especially with raw fish and steamed rice..

A kelp pie might be a little much, though..

- Kemrian the Makivore.


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> Totally not Good. Chaotic Neutral.
> 
> - Kemrain the Shouldn't Be Talking...




not if it is for the greater good...not all good being are good for the world.


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> you can't just say "post deleted" you have to actually do it....



right, like I'm really able to do that. What do you think I am, some moderator? Heh, I wish!


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> I like kelp.. Especially with raw fish and steamed rice..
> 
> A kelp pie might be a little much, though..
> 
> - Kemrian the Makivore.





it was either that or soy


----------



## Kemrain (Apr 22, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> How can you confuse *pied* with *peed*?!



I'm dislexic? And stupid? And immature?

- Kemrain the American.


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> right, like I'm really able to do that. What do you think I am, some moderator? Heh, I wish!




no you don't...trust me on that one


----------



## Kemrain (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> it was either that or soy



Just so long as you don't let it ferment...

- Kemrain the Green in the Gills.


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Apr 22, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> I'm dislexic? And stupid? And immature?
> 
> - Kemrain the American.



I'm American, and I'm none of those things!


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> I'm dislexic?





Dislexics of the world untie!!!


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> no you don't...trust me on that one



why not?


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> I'm American, and I'm none of those things!




no comment


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 22, 2005)

> undead are also not natural and it is okay to destroy them....so destroying other unnatural things is also good.



Ummm...so is killing angels good then?  They're unnatural.  What about level 20 Monks?  



> And a CG barbarian might look at it as surviuval of the fittiest, since they were unable to survive what he did they obviously were not meant to live. So taking them out is for the greater good, they were evolutionaryly wrong.




No one could have been expected to survive what he did.  It was an Antigenesis Wave...Also, when the party found out what was going on, the rest of them grabbed as much treasure as they could carry and Teleported away.


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Apr 22, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> - Kemrain the Green in the Gills.



Kemrain has gills?


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> why not?




because the hours are long, the benifits are nill, and the people in charge are really cruel.


...and some of the mods just go around making things up


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> not if it is for the greater good...not all good being are good for the world.



 Not buying it.  Genocide?  Evil.  Genocide of a Good-aligned race?  Vile.


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> ...and some of the mods just go around making things up



Well, I wouldn't be one of them!


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Ummm...so is killing angels good then?  They're unnatural.  What about level 20 Monks?




Yes, with the right view of good it is.  THere is not just on good in the world.  





> No one could have been expected to survive what he did.  It was an Antigenesis Wave...Also, when the party found out what was going on, the rest of them grabbed as much treasure as they could carry and Teleported away.




So, the party survived by recoongizing the danger and fleeing?  Sounds like a very important response that has saved many creatures from extinction.


----------



## Kemrain (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> not if it is for the greater good...not all good being are good for the world.



Simply because somethign is outside death doesn't make it unnatural.. Undead are created, while outsiders can be born. I could understand "Doesn't belong here" but "Not worthy of life" is way too much.

I don't believe it is within the realm of good to decide that a whole race, which isn't harming anyone, is bad for the greater good and needs to be exterminated. Good would look to self sacrifice before sacrificing the unwilling.

- Kemrain the [Evil].


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Yes, with the right view of good it is.  THere is not just on good in the world.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 So...yeah...Hitler?  Lawful Good Paladin?


----------



## Jdvn1 (Apr 22, 2005)

... Wow, looks like I missed out on a lot of posting here.


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> Simply because somethign is outside death doesn't make it unnatural.. Undead are created, while outsiders can be born. I could understand "Doesn't belong here" but "Not worthy of life" is way too much.
> 
> I don't believe it is within the realm of good to decide that a whole race, which isn't harming anyone, is bad for the greater good and needs to be exterminated. Good would look to self sacrifice before sacrificing the unwilling.
> 
> - Kemrain the [Evil].




welcome to alignment, where with the right conditions everything rings true.  Outsiders are created, being born is creating, and creating undead is having them born.  If they don't belong here the easiest way to get rid of them is to kill them, and it gets them someplace else.  Death isn't death as we know it.  Deadth in the fantasy world is something completely different.  

Of course it is up to good to determine who lives and who dies, if they don't do it who should?  Evil?  Now, it shouldn't be up to the good farmer, it should be up to the good god.  But since he didn't step in and stop it, he must have wanted it to happen.


----------



## Kemrain (Apr 22, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> I'm American, and I'm none of those things!



Of course.. I didn't mean to imply anything by my statement. I merely found it an ample opportunity to expouse my nationality. I'm shocked that you would leap the the wild conclusion that I was describing americans as dyslexic, stupid or immature...

- Kemrain the Liar.



			
				Frukathka said:
			
		

> Kemrain has gills?




And I like reptiles, too. I paint an odd picture of myself, don't I?

- Kemrain the Vertibrate.


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> So...yeah...Hitler?  Lawful Good Paladin?




no, misguided fool


----------



## Kemrain (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> welcome to alignment, where with the right conditions everything rings true.  Outsiders are created, being born is creating, and creating undead is having them born.  If they don't belong here the easiest way to get rid of them is to kill them, and it gets them someplace else.  Death isn't death as we know it.  Deadth in the fantasy world is something completely different.
> 
> Of course it is up to good to determine who lives and who dies, if they don't do it who should?  Evil?  Now, it shouldn't be up to the good farmer, it should be up to the good god.  But since he didn't step in and stop it, he must have wanted it to happen.



Maybe in your fantasy games. Mine dont' work that way.

- Kemrain the Shade of Gray.


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> ... Wow, looks like I missed out on a lot of posting here.




just a little


----------



## Jdvn1 (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> just a little



Three pages!  That's crazy.


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> Maybe in your fantasy games. Mine dont' work that way.
> 
> - Kemrain the Shade of Gray.




thus proving the point


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Apr 22, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> - Kemrain the Vertibrate.



Whoa, for a second I thought that said vibrating.


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> no, misguided fool



 Why will you judge Hitler for his genocide and not the Frenzied Berserker?


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Three pages!  That's crazy.





sorry, slow day


----------



## Jdvn1 (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> thus proving the point



Since when do you have a point?


----------



## Jdvn1 (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> sorry, slow day



  Normally I'll miss out on a page, max.


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Apr 22, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Since when do you have a point?



Since when does anyone have a point?


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Why will you judge Hitler for his genocide and not the Frenzied Berserker?




I judged both, just differnetly.  the main reason being one was a historical figure and the other was a fantasy creation.  In my mind, big difference.


----------



## Jdvn1 (Apr 22, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> Whoa, for a second I thought that said vibrating.





7?


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Apr 22, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Normally I'll miss out on a page, max.



What you only sleep for two hours at a time?


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Since when do you have a point?




I always have a point, people usualy just don't see it through my insanity


----------



## Jdvn1 (Apr 22, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> Since when does anyone have a point?



... What's your point?


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> I judged both, just differnetly.  the main reason being one was a historical figure and the other was a fantasy creation.  In my mind, big difference.



 That's a double-standard, though.


----------



## Jdvn1 (Apr 22, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> What you only sleep for two hours at a time?



Hey!

Sometimes three.


----------



## Kemrain (Apr 22, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> Whoa, for a second I thought that said vibrating.



I don't need to say a thing, do I?

- Kemrain the Highly Amused.


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Apr 22, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> ... What's your point?



What's anyones point?


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Apr 22, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> I don't need to say a thing, do I?
> 
> - Kemrain the Highly Amused.


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> That's a double-standard, though.




of course it is, but it isn't a bad one.  Fantasy and reality are seperate things so judging them idfferently should be expected and the norm.


----------



## Jdvn1 (Apr 22, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> What's anyones point?



Are you going somewhere with this?


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Apr 22, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Are you going somewhere with this?



Adsolutely nowhere.


----------



## Kemrain (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> of course it is, but it isn't a bad one.  Fantasy and reality are seperate things so judging them idfferently should be expected and the norm.



I think it makes a lot more sense to judge fantasy the same as reality. Do you really need to come up with 2 seperate moral systems, when the one you have will apply?

- Kemrain the Moral.


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> Adsolutely nowhere.




I was lost there once.....not a happy place


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> I was lost there once.....not a happy place



Not a happy place at all.....


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> I think it makes a lot more sense to judge fantasy the same as reality. Do you really need to come up with 2 seperate moral systems, when the one you have will apply?
> 
> - Kemrain the Moral.




yes, becasue our reality moral system is built off of things that don't apoply to the fantasy realm.  And the fantasy relams has many things that does not exist in the reality we live in.


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 22, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> Not a happy place at all.....



 A pretty dull doldrums


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> Not a happy place at all.....




a lot like neverwhere actually


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> yes, becasue our reality moral system is built off of things that don't apoply to the fantasy realm.  And the fantasy relams has many things that does not exist in the reality we live in.



 You'll excuse me, then, if I tell you that I think you have the standards set in the wrong directions.  In the world of D&D, where alignment is hardwired into the universe, there is a right and wrong.  Here in the real world, there is not objective truth (yup, a quasi-existentialist has been arguing for objective moral values in D&D).


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Apr 22, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> A pretty dull doldrums



Quite, quite dull doldrums...


----------



## Kemrain (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> yes, becasue our reality moral system is built off of things that don't apoply to the fantasy realm.  And the fantasy relams has many things that does not exist in the reality we live in.



What in our world doesn't apply to fantasy?

- Kemrain the Confused.


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> You'll excuse me, then, if I tell you that I think you have the standards set in the wrong directions.  In the world of D&D, where alignment is hardwired into the universe, there is a right and wrong.  Here in the real world, there is not objective truth (yup, a quasi-existentialist has been arguing for objective moral values in D&D).




exactly, and because in the fantasy worl good and evil are so easily defined that laters everything.


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> What in our world doesn't apply to fantasy?
> 
> - Kemrain the Confused.




unsertinty about the gods and the afterlife, many people have faith in these things but they are no so proven as in a fantasy relam where clerics get divine spells and divne servants walk the earth


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> unsertinty about the gods and the afterlife, many people have faith in these things but they are no so proven as in a fantasy relam where clerics get divine spells and divne servants walk the earth



 And that's why you *can't* defend the Frenzied Berserker, but you could defend Hitler.  That's why you have it switched.


----------



## Jdvn1 (Apr 22, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> Adsolutely nowhere.



Figured not.  I just didn't want to end the question game.


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> And that's why you *can't* defend the Frenzied Berserker, but you could defend Hitler.  That's why you have it switched.




No, I can defend the frenzied beserker because what he did could be defined as good by the gods.  It is very campaign oriented and really up to the DM and how he defines things.


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> No, I can defend the frenzied beserker because what he did could be defined as good by the gods.  It is very campaign oriented and really up to the DM and how he defines things.





> what he did could be defined as good by the gods



Ah but that's a wishy-washy maybe now.  You said before that you passed a judgment on the Frenzied Berserker.  Also, it can't be defined as good by the gods...because I say what the gods define as good


----------



## Kemrain (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> unsertinty about the gods and the afterlife, many people have faith in these things but they are no so proven as in a fantasy relam where clerics get divine spells and divne servants walk the earth



That's one of the things I like aboutthe game I'm playing in... the Gods aren'tthe highest truth, and there are places where they have no power at all. Even if they say X is good, that's just what they say.

- Kemrain the DnD Agnostic.


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Ah but that's a wishy-washy maybe now.  You said before that you passed a judgment on the Frenzied Berserker.  Also, it can't be defined as good by the gods...because I say what the gods define as good




It was always a maybe, I was just enforcing one side of it.  Its a game, so it can be set up in many ways with blacks and whites and grays.  It can be defined as good, you just are choosing not to.


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 22, 2005)

In my setting with the Frenzied Berserker, the gods were created by an ancient race of highly intellligent beings as part of an experiment...


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 22, 2005)

> It can be defined as good, you just are choosing not to.



That's not a judgment.


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> That's one of the things I like aboutthe game I'm playing in... the Gods aren'tthe highest truth, and there are places where they have no power at all. Even if they say X is good, that's just what they say.
> 
> - Kemrain the DnD Agnostic.




That's great.  My games are so frought with gray areas the players go crazy as friends do evil things and the bad guys do some good.  I'm all about the fuzzinest of alignment, but the point is in fantasy it is what we define in the game that counts, and anything can be defined anyway and supported.


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> That's not a judgment.




It wasn't mant to be the judgement was already passed.


----------



## Kemrain (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> That's great.  My games are so frought with gray areas the players go crazy as friends do evil things and the bad guys do some good.  I'm all about the fuzzinest of alignment, but the point is in fantasy it is what we define in the game that counts, and anything can be defined anyway and supported.



Cool.

- Kemrain the Pleased.


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> Cool.
> 
> - Kemrain the Pleased.




the point was just it fantasy, it can be defined in any way.  REality however can not.  We are stuck with what we have though people try to define it differently to suite their own needs.


----------



## Kemrain (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> the point was just it fantasy, it can be defined in any way.  REality however can not.  We are stuck with what we have though people try to define it differently to suite their own needs.



While people try to define reality differently, I think that, to a great degree, they succede. There is no _one_ way to define reality, and any attempt at understanding it comes with the same faults and preconceptions that we've always had. there is no right or wrong, merely agreement and disagreement, because we cannot yet know the truth, and we may be incapable of grasping it, even if it were spelled out for us.

- Kemrain the Metaphysical.


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> While people try to define reality differently, I think that, to a great degree, they succede. There is no _one_ way to define reality, and any attempt at understanding it comes with the same faults and preconceptions that we've always had. there is no right or wrong, merely agreement and disagreement, because we cannot yet know the truth, and we may be incapable of grasping it, even if it were spelled out for us.
> 
> - Kemrain the Metaphysical.




Ah, but just because we can not know the truth, doesn't make it not there.  THere is only one truth and one reality, and just becasue we can not know what that truth is does not make it any less so.


----------



## Kemrain (Apr 22, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Ah, but just because we can not know the truth, doesn't make it not there.  THere is only one truth and one reality, and just becasue we can not know what that truth is does not make it any less so.



How do you know? How do you know that reality isn't completely subjective? How do you know that reality is real at all?

- Kemrain the Am, Because I Think, but What About You?


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 22, 2005)

> Originally Posted by Rystil Arden
> How silly. Weren't you supposed to be doing your villiage idiot duties?






			
				Crothian said:
			
		

> sigh...they fired me.....





     

Too idiotic for their tastes?  :\


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 22, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> Given the earlier penis comment, I initially misread "Pied".
> 
> - Kemrain the Snickering.





ROFLMAO

    

Either way would get him fired.....


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 22, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> right, like I'm really able to do that. What do you think I am, some moderator? Heh, I wish!





I doubt that....


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 22, 2005)

Kemrain said:
			
		

> I'm dislexic? And stupid? And immature?
> 
> - Kemrain the American.




Immature maybe, but not any of the rest.  

But DEFINITELY an American!


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 22, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> So...yeah...Hitler?  Lawful Good Paladin?





I'm sure True Paladins might have an issue with that one...


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 22, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Three pages!  That's crazy.




'Tis the mission of the hivemind!


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 22, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> Whoa, for a second I thought that said vibrating.




I think you _want_ it to say "vibrate".....   

Set posts to VIBRATE!!


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 22, 2005)

> Originally Posted by Crothian
> sorry, slow day[/i]
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 22, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> Since when does anyone have a point?




. <--point


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 22, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> In my setting with the Frenzied Berserker, the gods were created by an ancient race of highly intellligent beings as part of an experiment...




Maybe that's why we don't have frenzied berserkers in our game.


----------



## Crothian (Apr 22, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> Maybe that's why we don't have frenzied berserkers in our game.




never a bad ruling


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Besides all this, we don't want them turning on us when they're still "berzerking" and there's no more foes left.


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> Besides all this, we don't want them turning on us when they're still "berzerking" and there's no more foes left.



Our Frenzied Berserker has like 20 Wisdom and levels in Paladin of Freedom, and so he always gets out of Frenzy. 20 Wisdom and he pulled the levers!


----------



## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> I'm sure True Paladins might have an issue with that one...



Hitler was a sad child who did everything he did, ultimately, because he loved his mommy. There was NO excuse for his actions, and someone as broken as he was needed to be ... discontinued. But I pity him.  

And no, he wouldn't be a Paladin at all. Germans in general have a strong notion of Law - _too_ strong, perhaps  . But Hitler was Chaotic - that is why he could _lead_ them. And he wasn't Good - and further, I believe he KNEW he wasn't, but was too broken and bent in his sadness and anger to care.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Our Frenzied Berserker has like 20 Wisdom and levels in Paladin of Freedom, and so he always gets out of Frenzy. 20 Wisdom and he pulled the levers!




If he didn't, I'd sic my epic level cleric on his ass!   She'd show him the meaning of a b 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 h slap from her god!


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Hitler was a sad child who did everything he did, ultimately, because he loved his mommy. There was NO excuse for his actions, and someone as broken as he was needed to be ... discontinued. But I pity him.
> 
> And no, he wouldn't be a Paladin at all. Germans in general have a strong notion of Law - _too_ strong, perhaps  . But Hitler was Chaotic - that is why he could _lead_ them. And he wasn't Good - and further, I believe he KNEW he wasn't, but was too broken and bent in his sadness and anger to care.



 I agree with you about judging Hitler, Torm.  Just trying to make a point vis-a-vis Crothian's weird system of morality.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> I agree with you about judging Hitler, Torm.  Just trying to make a point vis-a-vis Crothian's weird system of morality.





Might as well give it up.... arguing a point with Crothian on this matter has seemingly gotten you nowhere fast....


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> If he didn't, I'd sic my epic level cleric on his ass!   She'd show him the meaning of a b
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 Sadly, he would probably kill your epic cleric.  I'm afraid he's killed things that are stronger than your cleric, even though he's still level 19.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Hitler was a sad child who did everything he did, ultimately, because he loved his mommy. There was NO excuse for his actions, and someone as broken as he was needed to be ... discontinued. But I pity him.
> 
> And no, he wouldn't be a Paladin at all. Germans in general have a strong notion of Law - _too_ strong, perhaps  . But Hitler was Chaotic - that is why he could _lead_ them. And he wasn't Good - and further, I believe he KNEW he wasn't, but was too broken and bent in his sadness and anger to care.




More like he'd be "Paladin Bait".... 'cause every paladin on the planet would be putting a bullseye on his mug. 

Probably at best Chaotic Neutral, leaning more on the evil axis, especially later on when the madness really kicked in.


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> Might as well give it up.... arguing a point with Crothian on this matter has seemingly gotten you nowhere fast....



 I've just chosen to agree to disagree because he didn't want to listen to reason, which is fine by me .  You can't really win an argument on the internet; even if you have a winning argument.  I think I've had maybe one person admit they were wrong in my time here.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Sadly, he would probably kill your epic cleric.  I'm afraid he's killed things that are stronger than your cleric, even though he's still level 19.





Feh. Wanna give it a try? She's a 33rd level cleric. With Maximized attack spells, all the spell penetration feats, a bunch of fighter melee feats. A holy weapon that does bookoo damage... A very high armor class, very high saves. 

I'd type out the stats but that'd take quite awhile....   

Not to mention her deity posts on this board.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> I've just chosen to agree to disagree because he didn't want to listen to reason, which is fine by me .  You can't really win an argument on the internet; even if you have a winning argument.  I think I've had maybe one person admit they were wrong in my time here.




Some people just get so stuck on their position that no matter what anyone says, they won't budge. Not at all.


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> Feh. Wanna give it a try? She's a 33rd level cleric. With Maximized attack spells, all the spell penetration feats, a bunch of fighter melee feats. A holy weapon that does bookoo damage... A very high armor class, very high saves.
> 
> I'd type out the stats but that'd take quite awhile....
> 
> Not to mention her deity posts on this board.



 There's really only a few things that matter: Her HP, AC, DR, and DCs.  He has defeated CR 33 things before, though mainly because he has mad luck with dice and random number generators, and they ain't loaded because he uses my dice and random number generators.


----------



## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

I believe that Evil _does_ have an objective definition. It is the measure of what you do that does the most people what they would consider to be helpful, balanced against any people you would have to do what _they_ consider to be harmful to _them_ in order to achieve it.

Spending my time:
Sitting on my butt, staring at a wall - Hurts no one, helps no one. Neutral.

Helping little old ladies cross the street safely - Helps someone, hurts no one. Good.

Pushing little old ladies in front of traffic - Helps no one, hurts someone. Evil.

Pretty simple, really.

Hitler, I believe, KNEW that what he wanted to do would hurt more people than it would help, but he didn't care - he chose it anyway, because of a mad desire for revenge. And I frankly don't believe in people who DON'T know this objective truth - if they argue a different "subjective morality", they are LYING.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> There's really only a few things that matter: Her HP, AC, DR, and DCs.  He has defeated CR 33 things before, though mainly because he has mad luck with dice and random number generators, and they ain't loaded because he uses my dice and random number generators.




Hit points: approx 360 or so... 
AC: 47
DR: 3/- (armor) along with Heavy Fortification (crits won't faze her one bit!)
Spell DCs top out at 30 for her 10th level spells.

Her attacks with her Holy Greatsword are at +44/+39/+34. Damage is like +24 or close plus holy damage, if applicable (3d6 base, plus extra depending on if chaotic along with the evil...and a few other bonuses for other things..) (she got this ability from her powerful gauntlet/holy symbol from her god, Torm). Maximized attack spells, such as Flame Strike, which is loaded into those 9th and 10th level slots. 

And the fact that she'd be joined by the rest of her party. We all fight together. A full Drow sorcerer/cleric/mystic theurge (32nd level), a half Drow ranger/rogue (33rd level), a half Tiefling fighter/barbarian/shade (FR stuff) (36th level). And if the sorceress casts an epic spell to turn all into Force Dragons.... WATCH OUT!


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> Hit points: approx 360 or so...
> AC: 47
> DR: 3/- (armor) along with Heavy Fortification (crits won't faze her one bit!)
> Spell DCs top out at 30 for her 10th level spells.
> ...



Well if you don't bring in the party (and neither does the FB), he will surely kill you. He might eventually die, but your death is guaranteed unless you flee.  The FB has good enough saves to always make DC 30 and over 400 HP


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> I believe that Evil _does_ have an objective definition. It is the measure of what you do that does the most people what they would consider to be helpful, balanced against any people you would have to do what _they_ consider to be harmful to _them_ in order to achieve it.
> 
> Spending my time:
> Sitting on my butt, staring at a wall - Hurts no one, helps no one. Neutral.
> ...




Is this the "Loyal Fury" side showing itself?   

I'm not arguing "subjective morality", just giving a range of his possible alignment over the years. He was evil for what he did to one particular group of people. His "aim" originally, to gain control, was to appeal to the masses who were deep into a depression by giving them hope and something to go on other than the poverty they were in. Thus they became "willing sheep" to his plans later on when he decided to start invading and then imprisoning/experimenting/killing Jews and other groups who weren't part of "the master race". His whole bend was on total domination but it was done in a charismatic manner to get his people to go along with him in his path of evil. Granted he became more and more unhinged as the war went on until it came to a "climatic" end with his suicide and that of his mistress at nearly the end of the war.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Well if you don't bring in the party (and neither does the FB), he will surely kill you.  He might eventually die, but your death is guaranteed unless you flee.





And she 1: Aint afraid to die and 2: won't flee from battle. So she'd fight to the bitter end, be it her's or his. It doesn't matter. Her duty demands no less of her. 

She'd be like, "BRING IT ON! I LOOK FORWARD TO A CHALLENGING FIGHT!" (with probably a few "colorful metaphors" thrown in for good measure!


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

> And I frankly don't believe in people who DON'T know this objective truth - if they argue a different "subjective morality", they are LYING.




I find this extremely extremely offensive.  I am an atheistic moral subjectivist with my own set of principles, and I _do not lie_.  Suggesting that I do or that my belief system is wrong or a lie is offensive.


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> And she 1: Aint afraid to die and 2: won't flee from battle. So she'd fight to the bitter end, be it her's or his. It doesn't matter. Her duty demands no less of her.
> 
> She'd be like, "BRING IT ON! I LOOK FORWARD TO A CHALLENGING FIGHT!" (with probably a few "colorful metaphors" thrown in for good measure!



 Then she'd be dead.  I apologise in advance


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> I find this extremely extremely offensive.  I am an atheistic moral subjectivist with my own set of principles, and I _do not lie_.  Suggesting that I do or that my belief system is wrong or a lie is offensive.





Rystil: this comes from a guy who lied about being "normal"..... Feel free to pimp slap him if you feel like it....   (but then he might like it...   ) 

He's already lost his paladinhood, what else has he got to lose?


----------



## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

The seeds of his Anti-Semitism began with the painful death of his mother, and were set by the general sentiment of the German populace that the way all the Germans were poor (mostly from paying for France's telegraph poles) and the immigrant Jews were wealthy sucked and something should be done about it - usually involving doing bad things to the Jews and taking their stuff. All well before he entered government.

He was never sane after his mother died, but he was also never alone in his insanity - the German people were a little more than just sheep, I'm afraid. If it hadn't been Hitler, it would've been someone - they _wanted_ it. :\


----------



## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> I find this extremely extremely offensive.  I am an atheistic moral subjectivist with my own set of principles, and I _do not lie_.  Suggesting that I do or that my belief system is wrong or a lie is offensive.



How do you know I meant that YOU are lying? Maybe your set of principles is the very ones I refer to...


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Then she'd be dead.  I apologise in advance




If we go by the end of the campaign, she's "dead" already and residing with her deity.   

But she'd be willing to come back for a good fight. One that would actually challenge her. None so far has really hurt her other than the fight with Gargauth, ex-lord of the nine, who, in desperation, possessed the tiefling fighter and charged the group. She was the closest. Each hit the other with crit hits and only she stood, bleeding like crazy. It'd been the most hurt she'd ever been in the campaign, being down to 23 hit points. She regretted having to kill her friend but her duty to kill the evil Gargauth took over at that point. And each did around 100+ points damage in one single attack of opportunity hit.


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> Rystil: this comes from a guy who lied about being "normal"..... Feel free to pimp slap him if you feel like it....   (but then he might like it...   )
> 
> He's already lost his paladinhood, what else has he got to lose?



 I just can't understand why so many people are so disgustingly prejudiced against moral subjectivists.  We are the most accepting of all philosophies, and we have our own set of morals which we have gained intrinsically by examining ourselves...

The level of offensiveness is high enough that I can't give a specific example of what it would be like.  It would be something like, "Majour religious figure X is a liar and everyone who believes in the religion knows its a sham and is lying to you."


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> How do you know I meant that YOU are lying? Maybe your set of principles is the very ones I refer to...




He thinks, that by your recent posting, along with his, was aimed at him. Not at Crothian, I believe, who the original comment was aimed at....


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> If we go by the end of the campaign, she's "dead" already and residing with her deity.
> 
> But she'd be willing to come back for a good fight. One that would actually challenge her. None so far has really hurt her other than the fight with Gargauth, ex-lord of the nine, who, in desperation, possessed the tiefling fighter and charged the group. She was the closest. Each hit the other with crit hits and only she stood, bleeding like crazy. It'd been the most hurt she'd ever been in the campaign, being down to 23 hit points. She regretted having to kill her friend but her duty to kill the evil Gargauth took over at that point. And each did around 100+ points damage in one single attack of opportunity hit.



 Only 100 damage?  The FB would blush in embarrassment if he did that little


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> I just can't understand why so many people are so disgustingly prejudiced against moral subjectivists.  We are the most accepting of all philosophies, and we have our own set of morals which we have gained intrinsically by examining ourselves...
> 
> The level of offensiveness is high enough that I can't give a specific example of what it would be like.  It would be something like, "Majour religious figure X is a liar and everyone who believes in the religion knows its a sham and is lying to you."




Some people just can't get off their bloomin' high horse and listen to other people's POV without getting their hackles all in a bind. And, it seems, that Torm is one of them.... probably alot of it based on his rather unsettling background.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Only 100 damage?  The FB would blush in embarrassment if he did that little




There's a difference between a fighter-class and a cleric. Clerics don't usually dish out that kind of damage in one melee hit. And they were lower level than what I listed at that point. We were probably in the mid-to upper 20s in level at that time. We certainly weren't in the 30s during this part of the campaign.

But the difference is that she can heal herself, he can't.


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> There's a difference between a fighter-class and a cleric. Clerics don't usually dish out that kind of damage in one melee hit. And they were lower level than what I listed at that point. We were probably in the mid-to upper 20s in level at that time. We certainly weren't in the 30s during this part of the campaign.
> 
> But the difference is that she can heal herself, he can't.



 Whereas he won't die, no matter how much damage he takes


----------



## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> I just can't understand why so many people are so disgustingly prejudiced against moral subjectivists.  We are the most accepting of all philosophies, and we have our own set of morals which we have gained intrinsically by examining ourselves...
> 
> The level of offensiveness is high enough that I can't give a specific example of what it would be like.  It would be something like, "Majour religious figure X is a liar and everyone who believes in the religion knows its a sham and is lying to you."



No no no. You've got me all wrong. Don't take offense at anything I say - I don't take _myself_ seriously enough for YOU to get upset about it.


----------



## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

What I'm trying to get at is that philosophies are irrelevant to the truth of right and wrong - how you get there is interesting, but all roads lead to Rome. I believe murder is wrong. So, I think it is to safe to say, do you. It doesn't matter if we took totally perpendicular routes (philosophies) to get to that conclusion. Someone else may come along and say murder is right, and spout a bunch of nonsense. I say nonsense because even coming from completely different backgrounds, you and I would BOTH know that THEY don't even believe what they are saying.

Some things make sense. Some don't. Some people are willing to lie to themselves and others. Some aren't. Doesn't matter how you got there - there you are.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Whereas he won't die, no matter how much damage he takes




I don't see how anyone can NOT die after reaching that point....


----------



## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> Some people just can't get off their bloomin' high horse and listen to other people's POV without getting their hackles all in a bind. And, it seems, that Torm is one of them.... probably alot of it based on his rather unsettling background.



Nope. I'll listen to everyone, and I'll even respect it, when I believe that THEY believe what they are saying. Even if it is different from what I believe. Which, so far, it NEVER has been - it has just been worded differently. Imagine that.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Nope. I'll listen to everyone, and I'll even respect it, when I believe that THEY believe what they are saying. Even if it is different from what I believe. Which, so far, it NEVER has been - it has just been worded differently. Imagine that.




Maybe we all oughta back off before it gets more "heated" than it already has.....   


Staying up this late, I sure don't think I'm gonna be driving an hour-and-a-half to Raleigh in the morning....  :\


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> What I'm trying to get at is that philosophies are irrelevant to the truth of right and wrong - how you get there is interesting, but all roads lead to Rome. I believe murder is wrong. So, I think it is to safe to say, do you. It doesn't matter if we took totally perpendicular routes (philosophies) to get to that conclusion. Someone else may come along and say murder is right, and spout a bunch of nonsense. I say nonsense because even coming from completely different backgrounds, you and I would BOTH know that THEY don't even believe what they are saying.
> 
> Some things make sense. Some don't. Some people are willing to lie to themselves and others. Some aren't. Doesn't matter how you got there - there you are.



 In my personal code, I believe that killing is wrong, no matter what.  But I hold myself to much higher standards than others, since each has their own moral system, which I do not judge, as long as the belief is not intrinsically hypocritical.  I would respect someone who wanted to kill all humans, incuding themself, to protect nature from our scourge (even if my personal system disagrees), but not someone who murders people and takes their money.


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> I don't see how anyone can NOT die after reaching that point....



Deathless Frenzy. He once fought to -3000 HP before collapsing dead, the last enemy defeated.


----------



## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> I would respect someone who wanted to kill all humans, incuding themself, to protect nature from our scourge (even if my personal system disagrees), but not someone who murders people and takes their money.



You're nitpicking. 

You'd _respect_ the nature lover - I would, too, in a way, because on one hand they do kinda have a point. But, charged with the task, you'd try to stop them, right?


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> In my personal code, I believe that killing is wrong, no matter what.  But I hold myself to much higher standards than others, since each has their own moral system, which I do not judge, as long as the belief is not intrinsically hypocritical.  I would respect someone who wanted to kill all humans, incuding themself, to protect nature from our scourge (even if my personal system disagrees), but not someone who murders people and takes their money.




I wouldn't even go that far.... killing is wrong, no matter the cause. The only possibility might be in self-defense. But that'd be about it. Killing is an evil act and also against a certain Commandment as well. There's just way too much killing in the world today, and most of it is due to simple stuff like pettiness, thievery, jealousy, hatred, rage, anger, stupidity, irrationalities, etc... When will it stop?!?!


----------



## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> Maybe we all oughta back off before it gets more "heated" than it already has.....



I don't think that is a problem. Rystil seems reasonable enough. And I know I am. We're just chattin'.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> You're nitpicking.
> 
> You'd _respect_ the nature lover - I would, too, in a way, because on one hand they do kinda have a point. But, charged with the task, you'd try to stop them, right?





If they're breaking laws, yup. And also harming innocents in their fervor.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> I don't think that is a problem. Rystil seems reasonable enough. And I know I am. We're just chattin'.




 

Late night chattin' about whether Hitler was evil or not..... and other stuff.....   

Not to mention the "duel" between my cleric and his "berserker".... that's a laugh riot.


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> You're nitpicking.
> 
> You'd _respect_ the nature lover - I would, too, in a way, because on one hand they do kinda have a point. But, charged with the task, you'd try to stop them, right?



 There's a difference between being willing to stop someone and believing that they are morally justified or that they are evil.  I believe that the nature lover is not evil and is morally justified.  However, my moral system dictates my actions, and I am justified in stopping him, and morally obligated to do so by my own system.


----------



## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> killing is wrong, no matter the cause.



Certainly. But this is where the formula I described comes into play.

Anarchy: They kill indiscriminately, I kill them. No other factors. Two wrongs. No good.

But, if I am charged by people who have a right to expect they will live to see tomorrow to stop people from killing them, then my wrong in killing them (if lethal force is necessary, only) is balanced against doing right in fulfilling my responsibility to them, and leaves me with a net Good. Note I'm not saying a net happy - ain't no happy in this. Sometimes there just isn't.


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> I wouldn't even go that far.... killing is wrong, no matter the cause. The only possibility might be in self-defense. But that'd be about it. Killing is an evil act and also against a certain Commandment as well. There's just way too much killing in the world today, and most of it is due to simple stuff like pettiness, thievery, jealousy, hatred, rage, anger, stupidity, irrationalities, etc... When will it stop?!?!





> killing is wrong, no matter the cause. The only possibility might be in self-defense. But that'd be about it. Killing is an evil act and also against a certain Commandment as well. There's just way too much killing in the world today, and most of it is due to simple stuff like pettiness, thievery, jealousy, hatred, rage, anger, stupidity, irrationalities, etc... When will it stop?!?!




I disagree with this, but you're an objectivist, so as a subjectivist I accept your right to this consistent belief.


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> Late night chattin' about whether Hitler was evil or not..... and other stuff.....
> 
> Not to mention the "duel" between my cleric and his "berserker".... that's a laugh riot.



 Heehee!


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Heehee!





That was fun tho..... I betcha Torm got a laugh out of it while dealing with posting to the more serious stuff.....


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> I disagree with this, but you're an objectivist, so as a subjectivist I accept your right to this consistent belief.




At least it's consistent....   If not, one could be called "wishy-washy"....  :\


----------



## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> I believe that the nature lover is not evil and is morally justified.



Consider, for a moment, what sort of background a person would have to have to believe that murder to protect a tree is truly a good, moral act. I can't conceive of one that doesn't involve a whole lot of lying to themselves and self-loathing in order to get to it. No offense intended at all, and I MEAN that, but I think you may have yourself a strawman.

Your morals, from what you have said so far, are good. Why should you give anyone else a free pass from that?


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Certainly. But this is where the formula I described comes into play.
> 
> Anarchy: They kill indiscriminately, I kill them. No other factors. Two wrongs. No good.
> 
> But, if I am charged by people who have a right to expect they will live to see tomorrow to stop people from killing them, then my wrong in killing them (if lethal force is necessary, only) is balanced against doing right in fulfilling my responsibility to them, and leaves me with a net Good. Note I'm not saying a net happy - ain't no happy in this. Sometimes there just isn't.




Yeah, I'm sure a Tyrran Paladin I play doesn't like killing. But she has to do it in the name of justice as it's kinda hard to take them back for the courts to take care of... I certainly couldn't do that or be a RL cop. I can be too irrational at times to follow the rules/laws they have to follow. Both would leave my conscience feeling dirty from doing such acts, even in the name of good and law. It's not something I'd like to live with for the rest of my life.


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> At least it's consistent....   If not, one could be called "wishy-washy"....  :\



 Killing when I do it is always wrong.  Other people can do it if they want, and it might not be wrong for them, but it doesn't mean I won't stop them, as long as it doesn't involve killing them.


----------



## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> That was fun tho..... I betcha Torm got a laugh out of it while dealing with posting to the more serious stuff.....



Actually, I'm about out of it. I saw those posts and thought, "oooooh. numbers." and passed on by.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Consider, for a moment, what sort of background a person would have to have to believe that murder to protect a tree is truly a good, moral act. I can't conceive of one that doesn't involve a whole lot of lying to themselves and self-loathing in order to get to it. No offense intended at all, and I MEAN that, but I think you may have yourself a strawman.
> 
> Your morals, from what you have said so far, are good. Why should you give anyone else a free pass from that?




Or some other ulterior motive more than protecting some tree.... There's probably more to it than just protecting a tree...


----------



## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> I disagree with this, but you're an objectivist, so as a subjectivist I accept your right to this consistent belief.



No offense, but this is perhaps the funniest thing I've read all day. And considering it is 2:16 in the morning, THAT'S saying something!


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Actually, I'm about out of it. I saw those posts and thought, "oooooh. numbers." and passed on by.





It wasn't THAT many numbers...... it coulda been worse had I found the sheets and posted ALL the stats....   I've done that a few times on the "list your fav character" threads on the wotc boards.... that took quite awhile!   

And I'm about out of it too.....   That's why I couldn't remember alot of the stuff from a character I was forced to quit playing about a YEAR ago.   Which was a bummer as she was loads of fun to play!


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Consider, for a moment, what sort of background a person would have to have to believe that murder to protect a tree is truly a good, moral act. I can't conceive of one that doesn't involve a whole lot of lying to themselves and self-loathing in order to get to it. No offense intended at all, and I MEAN that, but I think you may have yourself a strawman.
> 
> Your morals, from what you have said so far, are good. Why should you give anyone else a free pass from that?



 Their morals are equally valid because there is no objective truth.  It would be an act of intolerance to disallow them to maintain any belief system they so choose, as I expect the same tolerance.  I will never treat others in a way I do not wish to be treated.  If I went on a murdering spree, I would hope and expect someone to stop me...hence I stop them.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> No offense, but this is perhaps the funniest thing I've read all day. And considering it is 2:16 in the morning, THAT'S saying something!




 

Odd where you find humor......


----------



## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> Both would leave my conscience feeling dirty from doing such acts, even in the name of good and law. It's not something I'd like to live with for the rest of my life.



Like I said, it ain't about happy. It is about duty. People tend to confuse "judging" like when people judge each other for wearing the wrong eyeshadow with the wrong lipstick with "judging" like the solemn duty that judges perform. The first is WRONG. The second is an unfortunate necessity - and the "unfortunate" part is something a Good judge realizes.


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> No offense, but this is perhaps the funniest thing I've read all day. And considering it is 2:16 in the morning, THAT'S saying something!





> No offense, but this is perhaps the funniest thing I've read all day. And considering it is 2:16 in the morning, THAT'S saying something!



I live to amuse


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

The mentality of some on the wotc boards a couple of years ago on the "mature" forum...



> In an epic game I play in, the DM roleplays Torm (FRCS version of Heironius) as the "frat god" and he enjoys drinking, eating, sex, and other pleasures of the flesh when he's not out fighting evil with righteous zeal. There is a palladin in our group who worships him, and he basically acts the same. The way they behave in their "off time" is kind of a reward for being holy warriors I think.




I had to laugh at this and then shake my head...... not what I pictured him....  :\


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> The mentality of some on the wotc boards a couple of years ago on the "mature" forum...
> 
> 
> 
> I had to laugh at this and then shake my head...... not what I pictured him....  :\



 LOL!


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Like I said, it ain't about happy. It is about duty. People tend to confuse "judging" like when people judge each other for wearing the wrong eyeshadow with the wrong lipstick with "judging" like the solemn duty that judges perform. The first is WRONG. The second is an unfortunate necessity - and the "unfortunate" part is something a Good judge realizes.





You and that "Duty" bend again.....   

I see alot of people who need a guest shot on "Queer Eye...". They shock me as no horror movie has ever done.   

I don't know if I could be a judge either.... or on a jury. Fortunately, so far ::knocks on wood::, I've not been on jury duty. The only time I got called was for the wrong county.


----------



## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Their morals are equally valid because there is no objective truth.  It would be an act of intolerance to disallow them to maintain any belief system they so choose, as I expect the same tolerance.



Absolutely. Me, too. BUT - you're assuming that what they are _saying_ they believe isn't a load of justification bull to do something that even they DON'T believe is right, but WANT to do, anyway. That is my point. And that is what I look for - the reading on my BS detector.

I used to believe as you do. Then, one day, someone asked me why I wouldn't hold everyone else to the same standards I hold myself. And I believe they are right. Holding them to standards I don't think _I_ have to follow would be wrong, but why should I give them a pass on just holding their own compared to me? Or you.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Or the one guy who drew my cleric for me who had a Tormian cleric that was sooooo dumb, he thought Torm's holy symbol was a smiley face!   

AND talked like Arnold Shwarzenegger!  :\


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Absolutely. Me, too. BUT - you're assuming that what they are _saying_ they believe isn't a load of justification bull to do something that even they DON'T believe is right, but WANT to do, anyway. That is my point. And that is what I look for - the reading on my BS detector.
> 
> I used to believe as you do. Then, one day, someone asked me why I wouldn't hold everyone else to the same standards I hold myself. And I believe they are right. Holding them to standards I don't think _I_ have to follow would be wrong, but why should I give them a pass on just holding their own compared to me? Or you.




It's kinda hard to hold others to your standards. Everyone's standards differ, even ever so slightly. Mine differ from yours and yours from Rystil's and so forth.... It's the differences that make us all human. And what makes for alot of the arguments that people have, usually over petty crap that ends up being meaningless in the end.

And how many "BS Meters" do you have blow up when someone spouts alotta BS?


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Absolutely. Me, too. BUT - you're assuming that what they are _saying_ they believe isn't a load of justification bull to do something that even they DON'T believe is right, but WANT to do, anyway. That is my point. And that is what I look for - the reading on my BS detector.
> 
> I used to believe as you do. Then, one day, someone asked me why I wouldn't hold everyone else to the same standards I hold myself. And I believe they are right. Holding them to standards I don't think _I_ have to follow would be wrong, but why should I give them a pass on just holding their own compared to me? Or you.



 I don't hold them to the same standards as I hold myself because they are not me and thus they are not obligated to follow my moral code.  As an example, I refuse to download illegal PDFs and music.  I am not greatly bothered that my friends do so, although I will occassionally lightly rib them that they are being hypocrites and destroying the medium that they hope to enjoy.  I also get along quite well with someone who is a textbook Lawful Evil.


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> I don't hold them to the same standards as I hold myself because they are not me and thus they are not obligated to follow my moral code.  As an example, I refuse to download illegal PDFs and music.  I am not greatly bothered that my friends do so, although I will occassionally lightly rib them that they are being hypocrites and destroying the medium that they hope to enjoy.  I also get along quite well with someone who is a textbook Lawful Evil.





> And what makes for alot of the arguments that people have, usually over petty crap that ends up being meaningless in the end.



Agree completely!  That is much of the essence of my system of acceptance.


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

> Holding them to standards I don't think I have to follow would be wrong, but why should I give them a pass on just holding their own compared to me? Or you.



Specifically why not? Because I would be incensed if somebody else did it to me, and held me to standards of following their beliefs that I believe are wrong.

As an example: "Not having a deity makes you evil Rystil.  Despicable atheists like you should be thrown in jail, as you don't believe in objective morality so you cannot truly have a moral compass.  Most people in this country have a religion, so you should be forced to also."


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Agree completely!  That is much of the essence of my system of acceptance.




I've seen many an argument that was over something stupid. Like a game where the DM and his girlfriend were getting into a fight over the semantics between a "village" and a "town".... yeesh! That's when we decided she needed to go. She liked to be the center of attention and cause tension in the group. Glad she wasn't around with the epic party. Rozhena woulda carved her a new one real quick!


----------



## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> It's kinda hard to hold others to your standards. Everyone's standards differ, even ever so slightly. Mine differ from yours and yours from Rystil's and so forth....



And this is probably where we just aren't going to agree - I think they ARE the same. Our differences are in how dedicated we are in holding other people to those standards, not in the standards themselves. And, again, I don't think there is even a difference there, except in words, and maybe how braced we are to follow through. I talk a good line - I sound like The Judge. But, remember, I even feel bad for *Hitler*......


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Oh, I edited my last post even though it doesn't say I did. I added an example


> As an example: "Not having a deity makes you evil Rystil. Despicable atheists like you should be thrown in jail, as you don't believe in objective morality so you cannot truly have a moral compass. Most people in this country have a religion, so you should be forced to also."


----------



## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> As an example: "Not having a deity makes you evil Rystil.  Despicable atheists like you should be thrown in jail, as you don't believe in objective morality so you cannot truly have a moral compass.  Most people in this country have a religion, so you should be forced to also."



Bad example - it once again sets off my BS meter: People who think there is a deity and are _legitimately_ concerned for you because you don't will treat you kindly even if they think you are misguided. People who behave the way you describe aren't concerned about you, they are on a power trip - and, whether or not they will EVER admit it, they KNOW better.

P.S. By using them as an example the way you did, you just passed judgment on the latter group. :::gasp:::


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> And this is probably where we just aren't going to agree - I think they ARE the same. Our differences are in how dedicated we are in holding other people to those standards, not in the standards themselves. And, again, I don't think there is even a difference there, except in words, and maybe how braced we are to follow through. I talk a good line - I sound like The Judge. But, remember, I even feel bad for *Hitler*......





You've been hanging around Tyr a tad too long.....   

And one can feel bad for Hitler. If circumstance had been different, HISTORY itself might have been different... but who knows? We may never know.... Alternate history is only in the purview of people like Harry Turtledove who writes some damn fine alt history books!


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> And this is probably where we just aren't going to agree - I think they ARE the same. Our differences are in how dedicated we are in holding other people to those standards, not in the standards themselves. And, again, I don't think there is even a difference there, except in words, and maybe how braced we are to follow through. I talk a good line - I sound like The Judge. But, remember, I even feel bad for *Hitler*......



 Completely disagree here, as you expected.  Standards are not the same, they are mostly culturally defined.

Here's some things.  Tell me if these are wrong in the "one standard":

Promiscuity
Incest
Bestiality
Necrophilia
Nymphophilia
Nudity
Atheism
Profiting at what is Indirectly the Expense of Another
Abortion
Killing as a Soldier in War
Robbing from the Rich to Give to the Poor
Euthenasia
Assassination of Decidedly Evil People
Torture to Gain Vital Information that will Save Lives

etc....


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Bad example - it once again sets off my BS meter: People who think there is a deity and are _legitimately_ concerned for you because you don't will treat you kindly even if they think you are misguided. People who behave the way you describe aren't concerned about you, they are on a power trip - and, whether or not they will EVER admit it, they KNOW better.
> 
> P.S. By using them as an example the way you did, you just passed judgment on the latter group. :::gasp:::



 I don't pass judgment on people with religions.  I do pass judgments on people with hypocritical moral codes.  One of the few ways to have an objectively hypocritical moral code in a subjective world is to be intolerant of others' beliefs.  So you could say I am intolerant of intolerance.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Bad example - it once again sets off my BS meter: People who think there is a deity and are _legitimately_ concerned for you because you don't will treat you kindly even if they think you are misguided. People who behave the way you describe aren't concerned about you, they are on a power trip - and, whether or not they will EVER admit it, they KNOW better.
> 
> P.S. By using them as an example the way you did, you just passed judgment on the latter group. :::gasp:::





One shouldn't be forced to follow a certain belief. That causes more tension than it's worth, IMO. I don't go around telling people, "Believe in Jesus or you're going to hell!". That's not the way to go about it. People are gonna believe in what they believe in, no matter what you say. It's only those who are weaker-willed (for lack of better term at this late hour) who might be swayed to your words. But alot of it IS a power trip.


----------



## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Completely disagree here, as you expected.  Standards are not the same, they are mostly culturally defined.
> 
> Here's some things.  Tell me if these are wrong in the "one standard":
> 
> ...



These are all just phrases - not individual situations. Which is the only place you should pass judgments. Passing judgment on entire categories of behavior as though they are all going to be the same is dangerous.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> I don't pass judgment on people with religions.  I do pass judgments on people with hypocritical moral codes.  One of the few ways to have an objectively hypocritical moral code in a subjective world is to be intolerant of others' beliefs.  So you could say I am intolerant of intolerance.




I can't stand those who say one thing and do another. It's annoying. Not to mention makes you, the hypocrite doing the "noise making with their mouths", look stupid in your eyes.


----------



## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> I don't pass judgment on people with religions.  I do pass judgments on people with hypocritical moral codes.  One of the few ways to have an objectively hypocritical moral code in a subjective world is to be intolerant of others' beliefs.  So you could say I am intolerant of intolerance.



YAY! We've come to it. "Hypocrisy" is _your_ catch-phrase for the same thing I'm talking about.


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Bad example - it once again sets off my BS meter: People who think there is a deity and are _legitimately_ concerned for you because you don't will treat you kindly even if they think you are misguided. People who behave the way you describe aren't concerned about you, they are on a power trip - and, whether or not they will EVER admit it, they KNOW better.
> 
> P.S. By using them as an example the way you did, you just passed judgment on the latter group. :::gasp:::



 This post is also avoiding the question because you are preaching to the choir but avoiding the fact that by forcing your moral standards on others, you are the same as that sort of person (albeit more reasonable-sounding because I agree with your code more than theirs).


----------



## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> This post is also avoiding the question because you are preaching to the choir but avoiding the fact that by forcing your moral standards on others, you are the same as that sort of person (albeit more reasonable-sounding because I agree with your code more than theirs).



No. I'm not. The reason I sound more reasonable isn't because you agree with me (although that is a natural side-effect), it is because, unlike them, I'm not _lying_ about my standards to try to get away with something I know is wrong.


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> YAY! We've come to it. "Hypocrisy" is _your_ catch-phrase for the same thing I'm talking about.



Uh, dude, you make it seem like this is a new statement from me. Let me direct you to my first post on the matter, a few pages back:



> But I hold myself to much higher standards than others, since each has their own moral system, which I do not judge, as long as the belief is not intrinsically hypocritical.




The difference between us is that I refuse to accept myself as an agency who has the privilege to decide right and wrong, or to consider someone to be lying based on my own whims and judgment. I will only use my "BS-meter" as you call it, if there is incontrovertible proof that they are wrong; that is, that the belief system is intrinsically a hypocrasy.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Completely disagree here, as you expected.  Standards are not the same, they are mostly culturally defined.
> 
> Here's some things.  Tell me if these are wrong in the "one standard":
> 
> ...




Out of those, the only ones not considered "wrong" is:

*Nudity*: as long as it's not public. What you do in the privacy of your own home is your biz, not mine!
*Atheism*: What you believe is your biz, not mine. Whether I think it's wrong or not....
*Abortion*: depends on the circumstances. Usually a life threatening situation. Other than that, it's wrong. I have a friend who's ex-girlfriend had an abortion to be a :: to hurt his feelings...

But the rest, I'd have to go with it's wrong to do. Granted there are circumstances that *may* warrant such a reaction. But it would depend on the circumstances involved.


----------



## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> The difference between us is that I refuse to accept myself as an agency who has the privilege to decide right and wrong, or to consider someone to be lying based on my own whims and judgment.  I will only use my "BS-meter" as you call it, if there is incontrovertible proof that they are lying; that is, that the belief system is intrinsically a hypocrasy.



The fact that you *know* when the belief system is "intrinsically" a hypocrisy and will judge it then means you believe EXACTLY the same thing I do, you just want yours to sound prettier and more compassionate than mine.


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> Out of those, the only ones not considered "wrong" is:
> 
> *Nudity*: as long as it's not public. What you do in the privacy of your own home is your biz, not mine!
> *Atheism*: What you believe is your biz, not mine. Whether I think it's wrong or not....
> ...



 I say that none of them is wrong.  However, there are certain of them that I would hold myself to never do.  There are also others that you called evil about which I wouldn't think twice as wrong.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> I say that none of them is wrong.  However, there are certain of them that I would hold myself to never do.  There are also others that you called evil about which I wouldn't think twice as wrong.




I'd say there's ALOT of them that I would not do.

And nowhere did I mention the word "evil" in my reply.


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> The fact that you *know* when the belief system is "intrinsically" a hypocrisy and will judge it then means you believe EXACTLY the same thing I do, you just want yours to sound prettier and more compassionate than mine.



 Nope.  For me, a hypocrasy implies a direct contradiction between the application of the universalisation of the moral code.  Example: Crazy-eco-dude is not a hypocrite because he will kill himself and his family and friends to save the planet, but Don Mafia who loves his family and himself and treats them with tender care but kills everyone else who gets in his way is faced with intrinsic hypocrasy in his actions.  When you decide that someone "is lying," you could be wrong.  Also, my system allows for eople who *deep inside believe that they are right* because they aren't morally aware enough to detect the hypocrasy, whereas yours assumes the more pessimistic of human nature: that somewhere they know that they are wrong but they do it anyway.


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> I'd say there's ALOT of them that I would not do.
> 
> And nowhere did I mention the word "evil" in my reply.



 Nope, you never mentioned evil, but one of the anti-perks of an objective system is that everything that an objectivist finds universally morally wrong *is* evil to them.  For me, its just someone with whom I disagree.


----------



## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> *Abortion*: depends on the circumstances.



ALL of them depend on the circumstances.

Euthanasia - wrong if I snuff out grandma to "make room", but not wrong if my wife and I have decided, _for ourselves_, to go out on our 61st anniversary, so we can go out together after a nice long life. It might make you uncomfortable for me to say that, but that discomfort is the natural one most people have with death, not a belief that we would be Wrong for it. No?


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> The fact that you *know* when the belief system is "intrinsically" a hypocrisy and will judge it then means you believe EXACTLY the same thing I do, you just want yours to sound prettier and more compassionate than mine.



 Here's another example:  A highly misogynistic society where women are treated as chattel.  I would hold myself to a higher standard.  I do not find it to be morally wrong though, so if my acquaintances lived under that system, I would accept it, although I would highly disapprove and probably do my best to advocate its illegalisation because I would expect the same.


----------



## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Nope.  For me, a hypocrasy implies a direct contradiction between the application of the universalisation of the moral code.  Example: Crazy-eco-dude is not a hypocrite because he will kill himself and his family and friends to save the planet, but Don Mafia who loves his family and himself and treats them with tender care but kills everyone else who gets in his way is faced with intrinsic hypocrasy in his actions.  When you decide that someone "is lying," you could be wrong.  Also, my system allows for eople who *deep inside believe that they are right* because they aren't morally aware enough to detect the hypocrasy, whereas yours assumes the more pessimistic of human nature: that somewhere they know that they are wrong but they do it anyway.



Please don't take this the wrong way, but anyone who uses as many big words and complicated phrases as you about this is trying too hard. Right and Wrong aren't that difficult. And accepting them, simply, doesn't mean you become some bigoted mean-spirited person, either. You can think someone is wrong, and still be nice to them. THAT is the BIGGEST problem in the world - lots of people don't seem to get that.


----------



## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> *because I would expect the same*.




Bingo! We have a Winner!


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Please don't take this the wrong way, but anyone who uses as many big words and complicated phrases as you about this is trying too hard. Right and Wrong aren't that difficult. And accepting them, simply, doesn't mean you become some bigoted mean-spirited person, either. You can think someone is wrong, and still be nice to them. THAT is the BIGGEST problem in the world - lots of people don't seem to get that.




Nope. People can't seem to grasp that concept... They let their bigotry show when they run across someone who doesn't believe the same way they do on *any* issue.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

> Originally Posted by Rystil Arden
> because I would expect the same






			
				Torm said:
			
		

> Bingo! We have a Winner!




OW! But did he have to shout it out!!!   My poor tired eyeballs!   

We all expect the same but we sure don't get it! That's for sure! If you're the least bit "different", you get pounced on by all the "bullies".


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Please don't take this the wrong way, but anyone who uses as many big words and complicated phrases as you about this is trying too hard. Right and Wrong aren't that difficult. And accepting them, simply, doesn't mean you become some bigoted mean-spirited person, either. You can think someone is wrong, and still be nice to them. THAT is the BIGGEST problem in the world - lots of people don't seem to get that.





> Right and Wrong aren't that difficult.



I disagree.  In realising correctly (in your responses to Darth K'Trava) that the most developed moral systems take into account the specifics and situationality before coming to a conclusion, you have demonstrated the understanding of Postconventional Morality in Kohlberg's model (google it if you don't do psych), the highest stages of moral thinking.  It is extremely difficult to reach this stages, and applying it will result in vastly different moral decisions from different people.  Many people live their whole life never reaching this stage.  Right and wrong are not so cut and dry...


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Rystil Arden
> because I would expect the same.
> 
> ...




And that's _exactly_ why you CANNOT judge people the way you do, lest ye be judged in the same way youself.


----------



## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Many people live their whole life never reaching this stage.  Right and wrong are not so cut and dry...



But that isn't because I'm a rocket surgeon. It's because I'm simple, and kind (or I try to be.) People miss it because they overcomplicate, not oversimplify. (I wish there was a smiley that looked like Jed Clampett grinning.)


----------



## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> And that's _exactly_ why you CANNOT judge people the way you do, lest ye be judged in the same way youself.



That's it, though. The notion that I won't be judged is poppycock. We do it to each other ALL THE TIME - sometimes mean, sometimes kind, but still judgment. I'm READY to be judged.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Right and wrong are not so cut and dry...




And it never can be. Not with many paths to try to figure out that meaning.... It's like "black and white".... without any shades of grey. Won't happen. We're human beings with many, MANY shades of grey in our moral makeup. It's like that Trek episode where the people were going at one another due to the different sides of where the white was on their face and the black.... it was a "stab" at the racism of the 60s, which is still prevalent today.


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> But that isn't because I'm a rocket surgeon. It's because I'm simple, and kind (or I try to be.) People miss it because they overcomplicate, not oversimplify. (I wish there was a smiley that looked like Jed Clampett grinning.)



 This sort of moral reasoning is anything but simple.  Simple is saying, like Darth K'Trava, "Incest is always wrong."  And there's nothing wrong with her belief.  Complicated, and more advanced, moral thinking, vis-a-vis Kohlberg, involves situationilasition and development of a moral balance scale where all sorts of factors are taken into consideration before deciding.  Its more complicated, and ultimately more satisfying.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> But that isn't because I'm a rocket surgeon. It's because I'm simple, and kind (or I try to be.) People miss it because they overcomplicate, not oversimplify.




It's called "Making a mountain out of a molehill". People make a big "to-do" about what ends up being nothing at all. See my previous post about the two who got into a big, verbal fight over semantics in a GAME...  :\ 



> (I wish there was a smiley that looked like Jed Clampett grinning.)


----------



## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> This sort of moral reasoning is anything but simple.  Simple is saying, like Darth K'Trava, "Incest is always wrong."  And there's nothing wrong with her belief.  Complicated, and more advanced, moral thinking, vis-a-vis Kohlberg, involves situationilasition and development of a moral balance scale where all sorts of factors are taken into consideration before deciding.  Its more complicated, and ultimately more satisfying.



Well, thank you, I think. But I still think you're overcomplicating it. I don't feel the brain power ticking over to make my morality work like I do when I do figurin'.


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> That's it, though. The notion that I won't be judged is poppycock. We do it to each other ALL THE TIME - sometimes mean, sometimes kind, but still judgment. I'm READY to be judged.



 Are you willing to be judged _ in the standards of those who you find to be wrong?_

Because I'm not.  And even if it happens, I highly disapprove, as I would not do such a thing.  You would have to accept judgment on their terms if you wish to stay non-hypocritical with your own policy of judging other based on your standards.


----------



## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Well, thank you, I think. But I still think you're overcomplicating it. I don't feel the brain power ticking over to make my morality work like I do when I do figurin'.



 Its a different kind of thinking.  D&D would say it uses Wisdom instead of Intelligence


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> That's it, though. The notion that I won't be judged is poppycock. We do it to each other ALL THE TIME - sometimes mean, sometimes kind, but still judgment. I'm READY to be judged.





Ready to be judged by the Froot Loop Toucan?   

And I'm not gonna be judge nor jury on that case.... 'cause I'd be tellin' ya to take the insanity plea and get it over with.....


----------



## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Are you willing to be judged _ in the standards of those who you find to be wrong?_



Their REAL standards? SURE. The ones they SAY they have to get away with stuff? Not a chance.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> This sort of moral reasoning is anything but simple.  Simple is saying, like Darth K'Trava, "Incest is always wrong."  And there's nothing wrong with her belief.  Complicated, and more advanced, moral thinking, vis-a-vis Kohlberg, involves situationilasition and development of a moral balance scale where all sorts of factors are taken into consideration before deciding.  Its more complicated, and ultimately more satisfying.





And I will stand up and say that "Incese is always wrong". Because I DO believe it is.


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Well, thank you, I think. But I still think you're overcomplicating it. I don't feel the brain power ticking over to make my morality work like I do when I do figurin'.




I guess that what happens when one takes too many psych classes.....


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## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> Ready to be judged by the Froot Loop Toucan?



That's EXACTLY what I'm saying. Don't overcomplicate it. Just follow your nose. It always knows.


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## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> And I will stand up and say that "Incese is always wrong". Because I DO believe it is.



But incense smells Good?....


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> And I will stand up and say that "Incese is always wrong". Because I DO believe it is.



 Not to be facetious, but why?  Our modern definitions of incest were generated in the 12th-century AD by the church in order to control inheritance better...If you found your true love, and it was your first cousin, what's wrong with it?  I assume you'll just say that it comes in from the Big Guy, and whatever he says is wrong shall not be done?


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Are you willing to be judged _ in the standards of those who you find to be wrong?_
> 
> Because I'm not.  And even if it happens, I highly disapprove, as I would not do such a thing.  You would have to accept judgment on their terms if you wish to stay non-hypocritical with your own policy of judging other based on your standards.




To be honest, he's more likely to be judged by those who disagree with him on moral issues than those who would believe the same code as he does. It's the same as if you were in his "shoes" in this case. Or me, for that matter. It's different for everyone.

"Judge not, lest ye be judged".


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> But incense smells Good?....





Try getting around that crap when wearing contacts. Then it's annoying as hell, no matter if it "smells good" or not....


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> To be honest, he's more likely to be judged by those who disagree with him on moral issues than those who would believe the same code as he does. It's the same as if you were in his "shoes" in this case. Or me, for that matter. It's different for everyone.
> 
> "Judge not, lest ye be judged".



Well then that's where our beliefs clash. I am not willing to accept judgment of my morals from those who hold different moral codes. I am not willing to accept a pronouncement from a deity-believer that I am "evil" even if they honestly want to "save" me from my "sins."


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> That's EXACTLY what I'm saying. Don't overcomplicate it. Just follow your nose. It always knows.





ROFL


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Not to be facetious, but why?  Our modern definitions of incest were generated in the 12th-century AD by the church in order to control inheritance better...If you found your true love, and it was your first cousin, what's wrong with it?  I assume you'll just say that it comes in from the Big Guy, and whatever he says is wrong shall not be done?




In most cases, yup. It was how I was raised. There are also other factors as well. Mostly social factors.


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## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> I assume you'll just say that it comes in from the Big Guy, and whatever he says is wrong shall not be done?



And it doesn't really. It came from Mosaic Law, which was the Law of _Man_ written by priests, and fulfilled (made obsolete) by the coming of Yeshua (if you believe in His divinity). Otherwise, you still couldn't have pork, either, and would have to go potty outside of town.

But incest is a bad example, because there are good logistical, genetic reasons that have little to do with morality not to commit it.


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> In most cases, yup. It was how I was raised. There are also other factors as well. Mostly social factors.



 I find the "Its wrong because that's how I raised" extrinsic faith line of thinking to be a tad specious, but I respect your opinion and your right to hold that position.  That said, I have more respect for those who have an intrinsic but theistic belief system, like Torm (you worship the Norse gods right?) than for an extrinsic theistic belief system or even an extrinsic atheistic belief system.


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## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil, I'm glad this is YOUR 2K posts thread - otherwise, imagine the look on the poor schmuck's face when he got up in the morning and saw the number of posts.


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

> there are good logistical, genetic reasons that have little to do with morality not to commit it.



Only if you plan on spawning kids.  What about somebody who wants to live a happy life with his first cousin and adopt children from less-fortunate nations?


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Well then that's where our beliefs clash. I am not willing to accept judgment of my morals from those who hold different moral codes. I am not willing to accept a pronouncement from a deity-believer that I am "evil" even if they honestly want to "save" me from my "sins."




And where was it said that I said you were "evil"? 

And face it, you would be judged on your morals by those who believe differently. It's a fact of life and being human. Everyone has a different opinion on everything. And alot of it may "clash"...


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## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Torm (you worship the Norse gods right?)



I don't _worship_ anything. I respect and am patroned by Ishtar, Tyr, and Jeshua.


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Only if you plan on spawning kids.  What about somebody who wants to live a happy life with his first cousin and adopt children from less-fortunate nations?




Then I don't really give a rat's ass what they do! So long as they don't harass me with it.


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Rystil, I'm glad this is YOUR 2K posts thread - otherwise, imagine the look on the poor schmuck's face when he got up in the morning and saw the number of posts.



 You should see Darth K'Trava's 1k post thread 

Anyway, maybe this will help you reach your 2K post thread.  Considering all the excellent responses I read from you on Shilsen's Cedric thread, back when I was an unregistered lurker in January, I was surprised to find out that you had so few posts in total


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## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Only if you plan on spawning kids.  What about somebody who wants to live a happy life with his first cousin and adopt children from less-fortunate nations?



Fine with me as long as they get fixed - or even if they just get good genetic screening.


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> And where was it said that I said you were "evil"?
> 
> And face it, you would be judged on your morals by those who believe differently. It's a fact of life and being human. Everyone has a different opinion on everything. And alot of it may "clash"...



 I didn't mean you


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> I find the "Its wrong because that's how I raised" extrinsic faith line of thinking to be a tad specious, but I respect your opinion and your right to hold that position.  That said, I have more respect for those who have an intrinsic but theistic belief system, like Torm (you worship the Norse gods right?) than for an extrinsic theistic belief system or even an extrinsic atheistic belief system.




If you saw his "religious path", you'd go nuts reading it....


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Rystil, I'm glad this is YOUR 2K posts thread - otherwise, imagine the look on the poor schmuck's face when he got up in the morning and saw the number of posts.





    

It'd have either been this or YOUR 1k post thread.....


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## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Considering all the excellent responses I read from you on Shilsen's Cedric thread



I AM awesome, aren't I, citizen?


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> Then I don't really give a rat's ass what they do! So long as they don't harass me with it.



 But you think that what they are doing is *wrong.*  If you had your druthers, they would be stopped, no?  Or is it not actually wrong and you just had your response affected by the Yuk factor?  Try this test http://www.philosophersnet.com/games/taboo.htm

Or even better: this one (my favourite philosophy thingy ever):
http://www.philosophersnet.com/games/god.htm


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> You should see Darth K'Trava's 1k post thread
> 
> Anyway, maybe this will help you reach your 2K post thread.  Considering all the excellent responses I read from you on Shilsen's Cedric thread, back when I was an unregistered lurker in January, I was surprised to find out that you had so few posts in total




Heh. Mine was mostly silliness!   At least until Torm killed it by killing the last round of jokes....


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## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> If you saw his "religious path", you'd go nuts reading it....



Make a Sanity check. Do it now!


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Make a Sanity check. Do it now!





Dude. I made my sanity check after I read that long email!


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

I can't recommend the second link in my above post enough.  Try it out, its totally awesome!


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> But you think that what they are doing is *wrong.*  If you had your druthers, they would be stopped, no?  Or is it not actually wrong and you just had your response affected by the Yuk factor?  Try this test http://www.philosophersnet.com/games/taboo.htm
> 
> Or even better: this one (my favourite philosophy thingy ever):
> http://www.philosophersnet.com/games/god.htm




I just prefer to keep my nose out of people's biz. So long as they're not being overtly public with it and trying to drag me into the middle of it.


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## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> If you had your druthers, they would be stopped, no?



Not to speak for K'Trava, but there's a difference between being religiously concerned for someone, and being a jerkwad. Enlightened religious concern involves informing the person of your concern in a kind manner, and assuming they are an adult who can handle their relationship with G-d or Whomever themselves. Like telling someone their fly is down. You don't just go zip it up for them, unless maybe they are a child.


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> I AM awesome, aren't I, citizen?





Don't let it get to you..... we might have to pop that ego....


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## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> I can't recommend the second link in my above post enough.  Try it out, its totally awesome!



Really, dude? Is it wicked gnarly? Righteous!

 (Sorry, very sweepy.)


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> I just prefer to keep my nose out of people's biz. So long as they're not being overtly public with it and trying to drag me into the middle of it.



 And I respect the fact that you don't intrude your beliefs on them like Torm does.  That's the part where I agree with you more than Torm.

But you do think it is *wrong* right?


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Really, dude? Is it wicked gnarly? Righteous!
> 
> (Sorry, very sweepy.)



 Yes, its one of the neatest things I ever found on the internet, pretty much ever, but only people who would appreciate this discussion could appreciate the site.


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## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> That's the part where I agree with you more than Torm.



You already said you AGREE with me.  

I'ma go beddie-bye, now. Laters.


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> And I respect the fact that you don't intrude your beliefs on them like Torm does.  That's the part where I agree with you more than Torm.
> 
> But you do think it is *wrong* right?




It's that whole "Duty" thing vs. evil, ya know.....     It's a "godling" thing for him. A "power trip" of sorts, or at least in his crazed mind!   

And I do think it's wrong. Not that you're gonna get me to change my mind, no matter how late the hour....


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> You already said you AGREE with me.
> 
> I'ma go beddie-bye, now. Laters.




I guess we all agree with one another!   

That it IS late and IS time for "beddie-bye"....  :\


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Go to the website durnit!


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Really, dude? Is it wicked gnarly? Righteous!
> 
> (Sorry, very sweepy.)




Not to mention smoking some of that "incense" he says smelt soooooo good......


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## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> Not to mention smoking some of that "incense" he says smelt soooooo good......



I like Sandalwood, not the Mary Jane smelling kind.

This thread is addictive. Help me.


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> I like Sandalwood, not the Mary Jane smelling kind.
> 
> This thread is addictive. Help me.



 Bwahahaha!  And the website, once started, is a philosophy game that you won't be able to help yourself but complete!


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## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Go to the website durnit!



Just did. Some of the questions were of the "when did you stop beating your wife" variety.
I took two hits, because I agreed with neither option and took the one that seemed closest. :\


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

<-----Bulletproof


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## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> <-----Bulletproof



So? Like I said, some of the questions didn't suit my views, one way or the other. I'm weird.


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Just did. Some of the questions were of the "when did you stop beating your wife" variety.
> I took two hits, because I agreed with neither option and took the one that seemed closest. :\



 It lets you see what I mean by contradiction though.  I am only willing to accept something as hypocritical if it has an inherent and undeniable contradiction.


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

And I'm not saying that you have one; the questions may have well forced you into one with which you didn't agree.


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## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> It lets you see what I mean by contradiction though.  I am only willing to accept something as hypocritical if it has an inherent and undeniable contradiction.



I know what a contradiction is!  But some of those questions didn't work - like Is Atheism Faith or Rationality? My answer is Both, but that wasn't there.


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## Torm (Apr 23, 2005)

Now I really AM going to bed. I don't want to sleep on the keyboard.

G'night.


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> I know what a contradiction is!  But some of those questions didn't work - like Is Atheism Faith or Rationality? My answer is Both, but that wasn't there.



 Atheism is Rationality.  It may or may not include Faith.  You don't need to have Faith to be an Atheist.  Heck, I'd be super-glad if Zoroastrianism turned out to be correct and everyone got weighed by their moral actions dualistically


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Now I really AM going to bed. I don't want to sleep on the keyboard.
> 
> G'night.



Sleep well!


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> I like Sandalwood, not the Mary Jane smelling kind.
> 
> This thread is addictive. Help me.




Hi, I'm Torm... I'm an addict.....

HI, TORM!


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Torm said:
			
		

> Now I really AM going to bed. I don't want to sleep on the keyboard.
> 
> G'night.




And YOU said you were the first to pass out......   

HA!

::was probably completely passed out while Torm was still struggling with his addictions::


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> Hi, I'm Torm... I'm an addict.....
> 
> HI, TORM!



 Hi "Torm!"  I'm still awake.  I see you've awoken.  You sleepy people.  We eidolons have no use for such things.


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Hi "Torm!"  I'm still awake.  I see you've awoken.  You sleepy people.  We eidolons have no use for such things.




Yup. Sorta awake.

Some of us *do* need sleep...


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> Yup. Sorta awake.
> 
> Some of us *do* need sleep...



 Sleep is simply a way to help the reaper catch up on me.  And as an atheist, that's a really bad idea, since death is the worst thing that can possibly happen, worse than a thousand tortures


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Sleep is simply a way to help the reaper catch up on me.  And as an atheist, that's a really bad idea, since death is the worst thing that can possibly happen, worse than a thousand tortures




Which makes ya wonder why you even follow athiesm if that's the case....


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> Which makes ya wonder why you even follow athiesm if that's the case....



Because, to use the Forgotten Realms analogy, since I actually think all the world's religions are fake, even if I gave them lip service, they'd stick me in the Wall of the Faithless.

Following something you construe to be wrong just because you think it might give you perks if you turn out to be incorrect is a pretty awful reason to do it.


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> Because, to use the Forgotten Realms analogy, since I actually think all the world's religions are fake, even if I gave them lip service, they'd stick me in the Wall of the Faithless.
> 
> Following something you construe to be wrong just because you think it might give you perks if you turn out to be incorrect is a pretty awful reason to do it.




You'd actually be one of the False for that. The Faithless don't believe in any of the gods, not just "lip service".

And I agree there. Doing stuff for the wrong reasons is just wrong. It makes you out to be a liar. And a hypocrite. Better to have at least _some_ reason to believe how you do.....


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## Rystil Arden (Apr 23, 2005)

> The Faithless don't believe in any of the gods



That's me!



> And I agree there. Doing stuff for the wrong reasons is just wrong.



Yup, agreed.  So then why:



> Which makes ya wonder why you even follow athiesm if that's the case....


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## Darth K'Trava (Apr 23, 2005)

Probably me, being one who follows a religion, trying to figure out why someone doesn't believe in any...

::shrug::


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