# Ebooks on the way out?



## Dioltach (Mar 31, 2014)

According to the founder of Waterstone's they are. I must say it sounds strange to me -- everybody I know who has switched to an e-reader was instantly hooked, and I'm talking about people who fervently swore nothing could ever replace hardcopy books.


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## Umbran (Mar 31, 2014)

Well, even if he doesn't own the it any more, I'm not sure the founder of a physical book store chain is apt to be a source of unbiased opinions on the matter.


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## Jester David (Mar 31, 2014)

As Umbran says, someone with ties to a large physical book chain might not be unbiased.

This speculation is all based on a dip in eBook sales and spike in hardcover sales. But the nun vers are kept back for hardcovers. They say how much Ebooks sold and the dip (800mil and 5%) and say his much hardcovers spiked (11%) but not the money. Without knowing the money from hardcovers it's hard to judge if the spike is greater or smaller than the dip.


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## biotech66 (Mar 31, 2014)

Umbran said:


> Well, even if he doesn't own the it any more, I'm not sure the founder of a physical book store chain is apt to be a source of unbiased opinions on the matter.





They will either adapt or die off!


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## Viking Bastard (Mar 31, 2014)

I have always considered ebooks to be the successors to paperbacks, not hardcovers. How are they fairing?


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Mar 31, 2014)

A 5% decline is hardly "on the way out." I expect all of the formats to continue to coexist for quite a while in various proportions.

If the market were truly free we might see more significant shifts, but since the current publishing model is still built around physical products and the big players are there, there's not a lot of incentive for them to level the playing field more.


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## Umbran (Mar 31, 2014)

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> A 5% decline is hardly "on the way out." I expect all of the formats to continue to coexist for quite a while in various proportions.




I would expect that the mix could well vary year by year, depending on what are the big releases, and to what audiences those releases lean.


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## Homicidal_Squirrel (Mar 31, 2014)

Dioltach said:


> According to the founder of Waterstone's they are. I must say it sounds strange to me -- everybody I know who has switched to an e-reader was instantly hooked, and I'm talking about people who fervently swore nothing could ever replace hardcopy books.



Ebooks on the way out? Hardly. 5% may or may not be significant in the ebook market, but I don't think it's enough to say we are seeing the beginning of the end of ebooks.

Physical books will always have a place. They may not continue to be as mainstream as ebooks, but there are plenty of people that will continue to purchase them. Hell, I still sometimes buy physical books because I can get them for far less than an ebook. This generally happens with books I buy for entertainment purposes, but even some of the professional and school books I buy come out cheaper when I get the physical copy rather than the ebook version.


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## Janx (Mar 31, 2014)

Umbran said:


> I would expect that the mix could well vary year by year, depending on what are the big releases, and to what audiences those releases lean.




Not only that, but were the eBook versions of the hardcover released at the same time?

No surprise that hardcover books rose if Harry Potter #8 was only released in hardcover format and nopt also eBook....

That kind of thing would cause a spike.


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## frogimus (Mar 31, 2014)

EBook revenue likely dropped off in the US because of the antitrust lawsuits against some major publishers that were price fixing their eBooks.

Now they aren't selling for ridiculous prices.  I doubt that quantity has dropped.

Also, people that bought a lot of eBooks now have a credit to use from the settlement.  Mine equaled 4 new books.  That's 4 books I didn't pay out of pocket for.


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## jasper (Apr 1, 2014)

Some of could be due the format of e-books. I know certain non-fiction ebooks I bought last year format was bad. Ex. Font changes, pictures \diagrams being outplaced. So I have been wary of buying nonfiction ebooks now.


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## Nellisir (Apr 2, 2014)

Dioltach said:


> everybody I know who has switched to an e-reader was instantly hooked, and I'm talking about people who fervently swore nothing could ever replace hardcopy books.




I switched to an e-reader when I went overseas last summer (easier to take one e-reader than 4-8 books), and switched back to hardcopy as soon as I got home. Ereading is fine, but nothing beats a book.


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## Mark CMG (Apr 3, 2014)

In a related story, the Schwinn family issued a statement saying automobiles were soon to be a thing of the past . . .


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## Hand of Evil (Apr 3, 2014)

That is because there is an apocalypse coming.    In a wasteland of zombies, mutant monsters and robot overlords, books may still be around and seen as barter items.


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## Quentin3212 (Apr 3, 2014)

Working in a library I see this topic come up fairly often, and considering libraries the world over are latching on to the ebook technology in a big way I doubt they are on their way out.

In my eyes ebooks are the next step in how humans share written information, they are superior in almost every way to traditional books and the only thing really holding them back right now is people's nostalgic attachment to paper books. Give us a few generations raised with ebook technology and you will really start to see the shift in earnest, this is assuming our technology continues in the direction it's currently going of course.

Books, wonderful that they are have been outmoded, like clay tablets and papyrus scrolls before them they will one day be completely replaced outside museums and collections. As far as I'm concerned anyone who tries to say that books as a mass medium are eternal is shortsighted.


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## Zombie_Babies (Apr 3, 2014)

My wife is a Kindle person and I'm real books only.  I don't care what people say about ebooks, they're dumb.  I don't need batteries or a charger to read a book.  I don't need to worry about eye strain when I'm looking at ink on a page.  And if I spill a drink accidentally while I'm reading and soak my book, I'm not out $200+.


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## Umbran (Apr 3, 2014)

Zombie_Babies said:


> I don't care what people say about ebooks, they're dumb.




As in most things, I think it depends upon the situation.

These days, I get a significant amount of my reading done on my morning commute.  On a crowded train, managing the crud I'm carrying and something to read I've found far easier with my Nook tablet than with a physical book.  And getting stuff from the public library on it is dirt easy!

On the other hand, I still find using e-book for gaming materials to be annoying and dumb.


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## trappedslider (Apr 3, 2014)

for some of my books,it's cheaper to get them on kindle when the first come out. However for some of the series i own,some of the books are paperback and the rest are on the kindle.


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## Dioltach (Apr 3, 2014)

Zombie_Babies said:


> My wife is a Kindle person and I'm real books only.  I don't care what people say about ebooks, they're dumb.  I don't need batteries or a charger to read a book.  I don't need to worry about eye strain when I'm looking at ink on a page.




I used to think the same. But I decided to give it a try (after I went to the Caribbean with my wife and had finished two of the four books I'd packed before we arrived) and bought a Kobo Touch. I'm very pleased with it. No eye strain because the e-ink is very stable and easy on the eyes (and adjustable font size is nice too). It's easier to read in bed, if I have one arm around my wife I don't have to disturb her every time I want to turn the page. I can download the books straight onto the Kobo without needing to wait for them to be delivered or finding the time to go to the bookshop and hoping what I want is in stock.



> And if I spill a drink accidentally while I'm reading and soak my book, I'm not out $200+.




It wasn't a drink, but I did drop my Kobo in the bath once. Put it in a plastic bag with some rice for two days, hit the reset button and it worked fine. (And it didn't cost me $200 either -- 90 pounds, whatever that is in dollars nowadays.)


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## Zombie_Babies (Apr 3, 2014)

Umbran said:


> As in most things, I think it depends upon the situation.
> 
> These days, I get a significant amount of my reading done on my morning commute.  On a crowded train, managing the crud I'm carrying and something to read I've found far easier with my Nook tablet than with a physical book.  And getting stuff from the public library on it is dirt easy!
> 
> On the other hand, I still find using e-book for gaming materials to be annoying and dumb.




Meh, I'd still rather have a book.  There's ritual to it that no electronic device will never capture.

What's odd in my case is that when I game I use my laptop to search rules.  I still use a paper character sheet (crafted with Excel and printed off - but that's more to do with my atrocious handwriting than anything else) but when it comes to checking an ability or specific rule, I just use the Pathfinder SRD.  It's clunky as hell but it beats lugging around a hundred pounds of books every session.  I wonder why I don't crave the physical book like I do with novels.  

My refusal to convert is also sort of odd in that I'm in IT, heh.  



trappedslider said:


> for some of my books,it's cheaper to get them on kindle when the first come out. However for some of the series i own,some of the books are paperback and the rest are on the kindle.




Most of the books I buy are $20 or less.  That's plenty cheap and I read _a lot_.  Like, _a lot_.  Right now I have 4 books on my desk at work cuz I don't wanna run out in the middle of one.  I never order one book at a time.  I guess I either don't buy stuff that's expensive or just don't see the money I do spend as a lot.


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## Zombie_Babies (Apr 3, 2014)

Dioltach said:


> I used to think the same. But I decided to give it a try (after I went to the Caribbean with my wife and had finished two of the four books I'd packed before we arrived) and bought a Kobo Touch. I'm very pleased with it. No eye strain because the e-ink is very stable and easy on the eyes (and adjustable font size is nice too). It's easier to read in bed, if I have one arm around my wife I don't have to disturb her every time I want to turn the page. I can download the books straight onto the Kobo without needing to wait for them to be delivered or finding the time to go to the bookshop and hoping what I want is in stock.




I don't read in bed so it's not something I'm concerned with.  I _do _read while I eat lunch at work and haven't experienced any real annoyance at having to flip pages while masticating.  It's all in what you're comfortable with, I guess.

As for waiting for delivery, well, that's a real concern.  I've solved that problem by ordering several books at once and doing so when I've got about half of my last one to go.  It's worked perfectly so far and 'so far' has been at least seven years.



> It wasn't a drink, but I did drop my Kobo in the bath once. Put it in a plastic bag with some rice for two days, hit the reset button and it worked fine. (And it didn't cost me $200 either -- 90 pounds, whatever that is in dollars nowadays.)




That's two days without your book.  I don't have to worry about that unless I completely destroy the thing somehow.  

By the way, 90 pounds is about $150.


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## Umbran (Apr 3, 2014)

Dioltach said:


> (And it didn't cost me $200 either -- 90 pounds, whatever that is in dollars nowadays.)




90 pounds works out to about $150 at the moment.

In the US the Kobo Glo goes for $129 right now.  The Kindle Paperwhite and Nook Glowlight each go for $119.


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## trappedslider (Apr 3, 2014)

Zombie_Babies said:


> Most of the books I buy are $20 or less.  That's plenty cheap and I read _a lot_.  Like, _a lot_.  Right now I have 4 books on my desk at work cuz I don't wanna run out in the middle of one.  I never order one book at a time.  I guess I either don't buy stuff that's expensive or just don't see the money I do spend as a lot.




Well, the most recent NEW release wise books i bought were both close to 20 dollars in hardback, but on the kindle it was just 10 dollars. There was one series that I wanted to get in physical form despite the cost,and one of the books was in hardback which was 15 dollars. It was the Gone series. 

One of the books i have on the kindle is out of print and so it was just easier and cheaper to get it on the kindle.


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## Umbran (Apr 3, 2014)

Zombie_Babies said:


> Meh, I'd still rather have a book.  There's ritual to it that no electronic device will never capture.




No argument there.  But turning pages generally requires two hands.  If I'm using two hands on my book when the subway lurches, there's a problem. What's more important to me, the ritual or not falling over on the train?



> What's odd in my case is that when I game I use my laptop to search rules.... It's clunky as hell but it beats lugging around a hundred pounds of books every session.




Most games, as a player I only need one book.  As  GM, I'm almost always running in my own home.  So, the lugging around isn't an issue, for me.



> Most of the books I buy are $20 or less.  That's plenty cheap and I read _a lot_.




On my Nook Tablet, I have access to the Boston Public Library and Minuteman Library Network ebook collections any time I have access to wireless.  Free books!  Admittedly, they won't always have exactly what I want, but they always have something I'd like.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 3, 2014)

I'm in kind of a middle ground.

I vastly prefer the paper book for most situations.  Indeed, I have only one eBook, which I got for free, from someone I know.

However, I anticipate that will change as I start looking at buying my professional reading material in electronic format.  I have many PDFs already, which I'm lukewarm to, but the sheer amount of paper in my profession that needs to be updated continuously is amazing.  And being able to carry a huge reference library in my briefcase is seductive, to say the least.

But for fun stuff?  RPGs?  Novels?  Anthologies?  I predict that I'll largely stick to physical books, or at least will buy them in addition to eBooks.  The main reason I can see for change in that arena is the aging of my eyes.  While I rarely suffer eye fatigue- so far- I can definitely see how the availability of the zoom function is a flat-out winner.  It's why we got my mom an iPad2 in the first place.


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## Nellisir (Apr 3, 2014)

Well, as I said earlier, I prefer a physical book. I found flipping back in the Kindle to check something extremely annoying; otherwise it was a pretty neutral experience.
The Kindle is more convenient for travelling, and if I had to commute by train, the Kindle would be better. If I bought a lot of books new, the Kindle would be more affordable. When I'm on a streak I'll do a book a day, and that's in between work and everything else.

But I don't commute and my town has a massive used book sale twice a year, so paper wins handily. I like having the Kindle around as a backup, but the physical presence of the paper book is nicer, and I can resell them if they suck or put them on my shelf if they don't (I'll admit I do view books as some kind of trophy.)  I've got 150-200 books on my shelves right now waiting to be read, so there's no rush for me to switch.


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## frogimus (Apr 4, 2014)

If it were possible to convert my collection to ePub format, I would quickly and happily truck a few hundred pounds of books to the recycler.

I can store 30k books on my memory card

I charge my device about once a week even though it can last about 3weeks on a charge (weekly is easier to ritualized)

I can buy and download a book from anywhere using my phone as a WiFi hotspot


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## Jhaelen (Apr 4, 2014)

Ebooks are superior to paperback novels in every way. Since I've bought my Kindle Paperwhite I haven't looked back.
- You can have a whole library with you
- It doesn't take up any space
- You can adjust font size
- You can read in the dark
- You can look up words by highlighting them
- You get lists of quotes and bookmarks for everything you've read
- It's cheaper - once you hit a couple dozen novels you start saving money

I wouldn't want to replace rpg source books with ebooks, though.


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## Nellisir (Apr 4, 2014)

Jhaelen said:


> Ebooks are superior to paperback novels in every way.



Can you flip easily between three different pages that aren't adjacent to each other? I got annoyed having to spend 5 minutes looking for a previous reference.




> - It's cheaper - once you hit a couple dozen novels you start saving money



Not for me.


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## Dioltach (Apr 4, 2014)

Nellisir said:


> Can you flip easily between three different pages that aren't adjacent to each other? I got annoyed having to spend 5 minutes looking for a previous reference.




This is one problem with ebooks, particularly fantasy books with maps or thick historical novels with a cast of characters (Dorothy Dunnett, for example). I've mostly given up consulting maps in books, and I must say that I don't miss them. Still, it would be nice if ebooks/ereaders could add a feature where you call up certain information or pages with one tap on the screen.

On the other hand, it's quite easy to use the Search function to find a reference much more quickly than with a hardcopy book.


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## Umbran (Apr 4, 2014)

Dioltach said:


> This is one problem with ebooks




If it is a map section, or a cast of characters, you can simply bookmark the pages, and you're good to go.  It *is* less easy to flip through the book to find a particular unmarked page, yes.  This is one of the reasons why I don't like ebooks for RPG materials.


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## frogimus (Apr 4, 2014)

Umbran said:


> If it is a map section, or a cast of characters, you can simply bookmark the pages, and you're good to go.  It *is* less easy to flip through the book to find a particular unmarked page, yes.  This is one of the reasons why I don't like ebooks for RPG materials.






That depends a bit on the format.  There is a WWII wargaming rulebook called "I Ain't Been Shot, Mum" that uses an interactive/bookmarked PDF to get you through quite nicely.  Of course it works better on my tablet than my reader...


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## Janx (Apr 4, 2014)

Umbran said:


> If it is a map section, or a cast of characters, you can simply bookmark the pages, and you're good to go.  It *is* less easy to flip through the book to find a particular unmarked page, yes.  This is one of the reasons why I don't like ebooks for RPG materials.




This gives me an idea for a patentable eBook mechanism...

I think the concept you're referring to is where somebody wants to look up a Feat.  So I pick up the PH, and I kind of know roughly where it is in the book, so I open the book to so far in.  then I thumb a few pages forward and back and there it is, the Feats section.

This is something that works because we know the book well, and can jump to so many inches into the book quite readily.  And then make small or large jumps forward or back to where we want to get to

eBook readers don't quite offer that.  I can go forward/back a page, or jump to a page#, but I can't readily jump intuitively to the part in the book where I'm sure the thing I need is roughly at.


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## Umbran (Apr 4, 2014)

Janx said:


> This gives me an idea for a patentable eBook mechanism...
> 
> I think the concept you're referring to is where somebody wants to look up a Feat.  So I pick up the PH, and I kind of know roughly where it is in the book, so I open the book to so far in.  then I thumb a few pages forward and back and there it is, the Feats section.




Yep.  The thing is, the physical object seems to be part of this mechanism*.  The human mind uses some of the same functionality you use to have a mental map of the way to grocery to build a mental map of a physical book.  You map out landmarks like artwork, and the graphic layout of pages, and how far they are into the book, to have a map of the internal contents of the book.  The mnemonic thus created generally enhances memory and retention of the contents.

The human mind apparently doesn't do this nearly as well with stuff presented on a screen.  If you can find a way to engage that same circuitry more strongly in an electronic format, you might have something noteworthy.


*see "The Reading Brain in the Digital Age: Why Paper Still Beats Screens" in the November 2013 issue of Scientific American.


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## tomBitonti (Apr 4, 2014)

As an aside, now that you've told us about your idea, Janx, you can't patent it.  Public disclosure, and all.

But, ebooks and paper books (and newspapers, and magazines) each definitely has their niche, and each has advantages and disadvantages.

I can have a book in my car (for days when the coffee shop didn't get, or ran out of the 'Times), and not worry about lugging around my iPad.  And another by the bedside for night time reading.

I can leave a paper newspaper, or magazine, for someone else to read when I'm done.

But, with a eReader, I can easily carry around game references in a fraction of the space of the books.  (Although, sharing the references at the game table still requires that I hand-over my ipad, which is a problem if I'm taking notes on it.  With physical books, I can browse one book and hand off another.  So slightly finer ability to share content.)

And, I can adjust font sizes and brightness to accommodate my aging, weakening, eyes.

I do think eBooks have a ways to go until the technology delivers all of its potential.

Bookmarking and indexing seem to be rather poorly implemented, and wildly different across devices, both in terms of how much functionality is there, and how the function works.

Licensing issues (a lack of a unified market; inability to share between devices) and pricing issues (price fixing and other monopoly behavior) seem to be rather in the public's face, and hindering the technology.

AdWare, in some cases, also is a huge hindrance.  I cannot read the newspapers on the iPad because the ads are too intrusive.  There is often a huge red banner ad quite visibly present, and jarring me out of the quiet black and white of the articles.  This is a problem for the public domain ebook database and reader application that I use on the iPad.  As well, the limitations built into the Newsstand application on the iPad are a case of extreme overreach, and a weakness of eBook technology, that is, that it is hostage to the technology providers.

A failure to adapt to the new technology is also a problem: We haven't quite gotten to the point of updating material to take advantage of the new format.  As an example of one case where content _is_ updated is a Go Book application, which imbeds games as playbacks in the text.  The playback widget allows you to play through game sequences while reading text, something you can only do in print with a sequence of diagrams.

Thx!

TomB


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## GSHamster (Apr 5, 2014)

I think that ebooks offer a slightly worse reading experience than paper books. But the experience is "good enough". And paper cannot match the space savings of an e-reader.

At any given time, I have 5-10 books on my reader, which fits inside my jacket pocket. If I finish one book, I can move on to the next one. I can put enough books for an entire vacation on the e-reader and it takes up the same space as one book.

In my opinion, ebooks are not strictly better than paper books. But the ebook advantage is significant enough that it outweighs the disadvantages.


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## Janx (Apr 6, 2014)

tomBitonti said:


> As an aside, now that you've told us about your idea, Janx, you can't patent it.  Public disclosure, and all.




Actually, where exactly do you think I disclosed my idea in my post 

I didn't.  I said it gives me an idea.  And then I described how real books work and Umbran confirmed my understanding of how real books work (with regards to jumping to a section you know where it is in the book).

What I didn't do is describe my idea or how to do a similar effect in an eBook.

Not that my idea perfectly simulates how real books work either, but I have devised a means to get to the section you want in a manner better and different than what is currently offered in eBook products.

Now the conundrum I actually have is that I am not really in a position to leverage my idea.  In general, one needs a eBook reading product that one owns the code to, to make the improvement and then release to market.

I doubt my idea is world changing or perfect, but it is an interesting solution to the problem of jumping to the page you want in a book when you kind of know roughly where it is.

I'm actually more inclined to "give it away" so all eBooks could implemented it if it was a good idea.


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## Zombie_Babies (Apr 7, 2014)

Umbran said:


> No argument there.  But turning pages generally requires two hands.  If I'm using two hands on my book when the subway lurches, there's a problem. What's more important to me, the ritual or not falling over on the train?




I read during lunch at work.  I use one hand to turn pages and have for seven years or more.  It's not that bad.  



> Most games, as a player I only need one book.  As  GM, I'm almost always running in my own home.  So, the lugging around isn't an issue, for me.




Even as a player I like to have access to as many books as possible.  It helps me with character advancement and, most importantly, rule issues.  I used to carry four or more books with me when I gamed.  Maybe I'm just nuts!  



> On my Nook Tablet, I have access to the Boston Public Library and Minuteman Library Network ebook collections any time I have access to wireless.  Free books!  Admittedly, they won't always have exactly what I want, but they always have something I'd like.




Confession: I really like collecting books.  Libraries won't cut it for me cuz I _have _to keep the book.  I take meticulous care of them to keep them as 'as new' as possible and I rarely lend them out since most people brutalize books ... heathens.  But yeah, I can see the appeal there for people without my particular issues.



Jhaelen said:


> Ebooks are superior to paperback novels in every way.




Is that so?  Ok, I have a challenge for you: I will take my new copy of Chuck Palahniuk's Doomed (I own every book he's written except one so you could call me a fan), place it on the floor and then simulate accidentally stepping on it.  Will you do that with your reader?  If not, why not?


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## Janx (Apr 7, 2014)

Zombie_Babies said:


> Is that so?  Ok, I have a challenge for you: I will take my new copy of Chuck Palahniuk's Doomed (I own every book he's written except one so you could call me a fan), place it on the floor and then simulate accidentally stepping on it.  Will you do that with your reader?  If not, why not?




I smell a problem with your logic.

If the paper book is on the floor and somebody accidentally steps on it, being the book lover that you are, you are a bit miffed by the scuffing and disrespect your book just recieved.  The Stepper meanwhile, sees no harm, no foul.

If it's an eBook on the floor and it gets stepped on, real damage happens real obviously.  You now have just cause to beat the stuffing out of him or make him buy you a new eBook.  Owner's Choice.  It's in the Warranty.

So, some would consider this clarity of damage to be a superior methodology


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## Zombie_Babies (Apr 7, 2014)

Janx said:


> I smell a problem with your logic.
> 
> If the paper book is on the floor and somebody accidentally steps on it, being the book lover that you are, you are a bit miffed by the scuffing and disrespect your book just recieved.  The Stepper meanwhile, sees no harm, no foul.
> 
> ...




The simple point there is that my book will not be destroyed, I won't have to wait to finish it, I won't have to spend a lot of money to replace it if I want an unscuffed copy and all of that makes it superior to an ebook.  It's a challenge to the statement that ebooks are 'superior in every way'.

And I'm pretty sure paper books come with the same 'make them replace it or beat the hell out of them (or both)' clause.


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## jasper (Apr 8, 2014)

Umbran said:


> No argument there.  But turning pages generally requires two hands.  If I'm using two hands on my book when the subway lurches, there's a problem. ......



Then get out the store. Around here if the Subway lurches we call it an earthquake.
Ebooks are great for casual reading, aka Star Wars, Star Trek, Game of Thrones, but for graphic heavy books, no. Not at this time.


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## frogimus (Apr 8, 2014)

Zombie_Babies said:


> The simple point there is that my book will not be destroyed, I won't have to wait to finish it, I won't have to spend a lot of money to replace it if I want an unscuffed copy and all of that makes it superior to an ebook.  It's a challenge to the statement that ebooks are 'superior in every way'.
> 
> And I'm pretty sure paper books come with the same 'make them replace it or beat the hell out of them (or both)' clause.






Along that same line of logic, we'll assume my house floods.  I need to replace an $80 reader.  All my eBooks are stored in the cloud, so I only need to replace some silicone and plastic.  Or not, since I can read them on my phone, tablet, and PC.  My library of hardbound books are a total loss.


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## Janx (Apr 8, 2014)

Zombie_Babies said:


> The simple point there is that my book will not be destroyed, I won't have to wait to finish it, I won't have to spend a lot of money to replace it if I want an unscuffed copy and all of that makes it superior to an ebook.  It's a challenge to the statement that ebooks are 'superior in every way'.
> 
> And I'm pretty sure paper books come with the same 'make them replace it or beat the hell out of them (or both)' clause.




It's been awhile since i held a real book....

My wife always bought me heavy books.  Which make me tired holding them up so I can read them.  So I like my lighter eBook for that.

though i agree that asserting that they were superior in EVERY way was a bit much....


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## Nellisir (Apr 9, 2014)

Jhaelen said:


> Ebooks are superior to paperback novels in every way.




Until Amazon takes your books away. 
http://www.nbcnews.com/tech/gadgets...ndle-books-amazon-reminds-customer-f1C6626211


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 9, 2014)

Nellisir said:


> Until Amazon takes your books away.
> http://www.nbcnews.com/tech/gadgets...ndle-books-amazon-reminds-customer-f1C6626211




Yep.

Which is also one reason why I buy CDs instead of downloading mp3s- same buy vs rent market structure.

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/who-owns-your-itunes-library-when-you-die/


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## Umbran (Apr 9, 2014)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Which is also one reason why I buy CDs instead of downloading mp3s- same buy vs rent market structure.




That's an issue with something like iTunes, where the expectation is that you'll use their software to download and manage your content.

If, however, you purchase and download a DRM-free mp3, there's not a whole lot Amazon can do about it afterwards.


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## Callahan09 (Apr 9, 2014)

Umbran said:


> As in most things, I think it depends upon the situation.
> 
> These days, I get a significant amount of my reading done on my morning commute.  On a crowded train, managing the crud I'm carrying and something to read I've found far easier with my Nook tablet than with a physical book.  And getting stuff from the public library on it is dirt easy!
> 
> On the other hand, I still find using e-book for gaming materials to be annoying and dumb.




Exactly where I am in my thinking.  I do most of my narrative reading on the train during my commute (unless a book gets me so hooked I keep reading after I get home).  Also ebooks are easy to demo a sample off in just a few seconds search and download time, the buying price is usually cheaper outside of finding a decent used copy at the right price, and it also keeps track of my bookmarks, notes, and highlights in the digital format.  Finally, my shelf space at home is at a serious premium right now and so the honest to goodness bigger factor limiting my purchasing decisions is simply how worthy the book is of occupying a coveted spot on the shelf. 

And I also agree about source books... Still can't do them digitally.  I think this is an issue with all reference books as a general rule.  What it is, is that you have to page jump a lot and that is simply slower in digital format right now.  Someday it may improve and digital could be just as quick and smooth to page jump and browse as paper is, but until that day that kinda of books need to be paper for me.


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## tomBitonti (Apr 9, 2014)

A couple of points ...

*) Readers need not be worth only $70.  Lots of folks have much more expensive devices.  A top-of-the-line iPad air runs about $1000.

*) Devices still provide a fraction of what you get from a book, in terms of viewing area.

What we need are devices similar to an ipad air, but about twice as big, which are sturdy and light (say, made mostly of light but tough plastic), which sell for $100, and which are enabled for effortless sharing of content.

Thx!

TomB


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 9, 2014)

Umbran said:


> That's an issue with something like iTunes, where the expectation is that you'll use their software to download and manage your content.
> 
> If, however, you purchase and download a DRM-free mp3, there's not a whole lot Amazon can do about it afterwards.




There is also the assumption that those downloads will always be readable by the tech you own.  Having already lost data purely to the advances of computer technology, I'm not prepared to trust in that assumption.

OTOH, the stuff I download from my own (still growing) massive collection of music in physical formats, is free of all issues.  As long as I have the necessary audio equipment, I'll always be able to make downloads of the latest digital format.


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## Mark CMG (Apr 10, 2014)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> There is also the assumption that those downloads will always be readable by the tech you own.  Having already lost data purely to the advances of computer technology, I'm not prepared to trust in that assumption.
> 
> OTOH, the stuff I download from my own (still growing) massive collection of music in physical formats, is free of all issues.  As long as I have the necessary audio equipment, I'll always be able to make downloads of the latest digital format.





This might be of help -

http://calibre-ebook.com/


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## Nellisir (Apr 10, 2014)

I can picture an e-book that I'd really like, and it'd look a lot like a book. Full-open to a large screen, or "half-fold" to two screens (like, y'know...a book). Some kind of simple tab system I could operate with my thumb while holding the book in the same hand. Ultra-light.

The act of flipping a page is really...comforting, as is seeing two pages (and not flat, like two-page view on my monitor).


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## Dioltach (Apr 10, 2014)

Nellisir said:


> I can picture an e-book that I'd really like, and it'd look a lot like a book. Full-open to a large screen, or "half-fold" to two screens (like, y'know...a book). Some kind of simple tab system I could operate with my thumb while holding the book in the same hand. Ultra-light.
> 
> The act of flipping a page is really...comforting, as is seeing two pages (and not flat, like two-page view on my monitor).




I must say, that does sound good (I have a cover for my Kobo that flips open like a book, so I'm not too far off). But I'd like an e-book like that to have an option for using the left-hand screen for calling up maps, illustrations, a cast of characters, or searching through the book.


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## Jhaelen (Apr 10, 2014)

Nellisir said:


> Until Amazon takes your books away.
> http://www.nbcnews.com/tech/gadgets...ndle-books-amazon-reminds-customer-f1C6626211



They can't. I always download books to my PC rather than directly to the Kindle. I also use Calibre to manage my collection.

This was one of the first issues I did some research on before buying the Kindle.

Which reminds me:
I always used to be afraid of losing my extensive book collection to a fire.

For my digital book collection I have backups stored on two different web storage providers.
Unless the whole internet infrastructure breaks down, I consider it unlikely to ever lose my e-books.


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## Janx (Apr 10, 2014)

Mark CMG said:


> This might be of help -
> 
> http://calibre-ebook.com/




That's like step 2 on my migration from Sony to Kindle.

Which actually brings up one possible reason for the dip in ebook sales.

Sony just closed their ebook store and transfered all the purchases to kobo.  We had about 3 years worth of books on Sony (345 titles if I recall).  There's likely a lot of no purchases going on, just because one of the players vanished.  We stopped buying books when we found out it was going to happen until we figured out what we were going to switch to and how.

Past experience with Kobo is that they suck.  their support is terrible.  The only redeeming quality is their lack of responsiveness makes winning a PayPal dispute with them easy, because they simply don't respond and thus lose by default.

My next step is to buy a DRM removal tool to strip my files that i bought, so I can use Callibre to convert them to Kindle format (because Kindle does NOT use ePub format).


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## Quartz (Apr 10, 2014)

I hava a Kindle Paperwhite and so far I'm not really impressed. The problem of flipping back and forth has already been mentioned, but physically, the screen isn't all that good. It has a 200 dpi screen but the text looks dreadful. It's decent enough for penny dreadfuls.

OTOH my nephew loves his.


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## Nellisir (Apr 10, 2014)

Jhaelen said:


> They can't. I always download books to my PC rather than directly to the Kindle. I also use Calibre to manage my collection. This was one of the first issues I did some research on before buying the Kindle.



So basically, there's a workaround. That gives you possession, not ownership. 



> I always used to be afraid of losing my extensive book collection to a fire.



Keeping your books in a fireproof vault. Also, insurance.


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## Umbran (Apr 10, 2014)

Nellisir said:


> So basically, there's a workaround. That gives you possession, not ownership.




Legally speaking, you're correct.  I haven't gotten anything from Amazon, so I don't know if this is technically a violation of their license terms.

But, I think the point was more on the practical side than the legal niceties side.


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## Janx (Apr 10, 2014)

Umbran said:


> Legally speaking, you're correct.  I haven't gotten anything from Amazon, so I don't know if this is technically a violation of their license terms.
> 
> But, I think the point was more on the practical side than the legal niceties side.




I'm inclined to think (and this is not legal advice), that until you actually attract the attention of lawyers or cops, the details don't matter on what you do with a file you paid money for that stays inside your home/tech-property.


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## Dioltach (Apr 10, 2014)

Kobo has a desktop program that downloads any books you buy onto your compueter -- I assime that means you own those files.


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## Nellisir (Apr 11, 2014)

Umbran said:


> But, I think the point was more on the practical side than the legal niceties side.



The way I read things right now, courts are leaning towards "purchase" of an ebook as a lease, not a sale - there's no right to resale, for instance. I'm secure in my ownership of my books now, a year from now, and twenty years from now. I don't think the same can be said for ebooks. I realize that right now, as a "practical" matter, it doesn't matter, but what about in a year? Two years? Twenty years? It's optimistic to say you're always going to have a disconnected device to store all your books on, and they're never going to implement some kind of DRM.

I like ebooks just fine, but I'm not going to bury my head in the sand and suffocate for them.


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## Umbran (Apr 11, 2014)

Nellisir said:


> I realize that right now, as a "practical" matter, it doesn't matter, but what about in a year? Two years? Twenty years?




I used to think that.  Now, I wonder.  My wife and I moved into a house a few years ago.  We consolidated our collections, have a room that's a library, and it doesn't nearly hold all the books...

And, we find that the vast majority of them just *sit* there.  Have not moved since we put them on the shelf 5 years ago.  We are most certainly not rereading most of them at any rate of speed.  And I have to think - how many books that I read 10 or 20 years ago have I reread recently?  A couple?  Most of my reading is new things, not old tings I've already read.  We have a whole room holding paper for us that we never use!  

Am I really supposed to be so worried about whether I'll still have it 20 years from now, if that's 20 years on a shelf, doing nobody any good anyway?


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 11, 2014)

My take on that is this: it is my personal library.  Some of the books I re-read, some I don't.  Some I use as reference resources for gaming.   I also loan them out.


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## Elf Witch (Apr 11, 2014)

I used to be anti e book until I actually started reading them. I read on two devices my phone and a tablet that cost 55 dollars. Now granted my tablet only has four hours of battery life but since I read at home on it it is no big deal. My roommate has a Nook and she gets days of battery life. 

There are many reasons for my liking e books. My eye sight has had issues. I just had cataract surgery so hopefully I will see some improvement but I do have aging eyes and I need bright direct light to read books . I have found that it is easier to read ebooks. I can enlarge the font and read in the dark. Since I am now sharing a room with someone who is easily disturbed by light and I am a night owl this has been helpful. 

I have had to downsize my living arrangements and that meant weeding my huge collection of books simply because of lack of space. Having stuff on ebooks lets me keep more books. I did keep in hardback books I could not live without in dead tree format.

I also suffered a major fracture to my back in 2010 and I have found holding heavy books to be impossible for any length of time. Having the Pathfinder core book on PDF helped a lot the hardback is very heavy. I like the Pazio offers both. I like a hard copy of gaming books but find PDFs more portable and helpful when DMing. 

I have both the Kindle and Nook App on my telephone and tablet and I download a lot of free books and very cheap books. It is also a good way to get a book you will only read once. My roommate loves Regency romance novels and she used to buy them then when finished donate them to the library or toss them. Now she can buy them and they don't take up room in the house. 

We back up all our copies on our own systems so we won't lose them if Amazon or Barnes and Noble try and take them.  We manage our ebook in Calibre a wonderful program that for examples converts Kindle books to Epub so they can be read on the Nook. 

Yes you can have your reader damaged but that can happen to books too. I had the horrible job of helping my friends clean up after hurricane Andrew they lost every book they owned and they had a lot of first autographed science fiction and fantasy novels. 

I hope dead tree books don't go anywhere but I do think ebooks serve a purpose and will stay around.


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## Nellisir (Apr 11, 2014)

Umbran said:


> Am I really supposed to be so worried about whether I'll still have it 20 years from now, if that's 20 years on a shelf, doing nobody any good anyway?



The part you quoted was about the legal interpretations of own vs lease in ebooks, not actual duration of ownership.  It's unlikely that in 20 years you won't be able to "own" physical books.  It's quite possible that in 20 years the legal rights around ebooks will change.

And maybe you're OK with paying to lease 95% of your library for a year or two; that still leaves a few electronic shelves that you've got to renew every two years.

I'm really tired, so maybe it's still not clear - I'm just saying in 20 years, I will still know where I stand legally with a physical book. That's not true of ebooks.


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## Nellisir (Apr 11, 2014)

I'm deleting this post so I can stop getting sucked back into this conversations.


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## Elf Witch (Apr 11, 2014)

Nellisir said:


> "Act of God" is always a zero-sum argument.
> "You could step on your Kindle"
> "Your books could burn up in a fire."
> "We could lose the knowledge of electricity and not charge our ereaders."
> ...




It seems you are taking this way to personal. My point is the same as others that either can be lost. Though I think for me losing hardback books would be harder than losing an ebook. I would be devastated if I lost my autograph books.


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## Jan van Leyden (Apr 11, 2014)

Umbran said:


> I used to think that.  Now, I wonder.  My wife and I moved into a house a few years ago.  We consolidated our collections, have a room that's a library, and it doesn't nearly hold all the books...
> 
> And, we find that the vast majority of them just *sit* there.  Have not moved since we put them on the shelf 5 years ago.  We are most certainly not rereading most of them at any rate of speed.  And I have to think - how many books that I read 10 or 20 years ago have I reread recently?  A couple?  Most of my reading is new things, not old tings I've already read.  We have a whole room holding paper for us that we never use!
> 
> Am I really supposed to be so worried about whether I'll still have it 20 years from now, if that's 20 years on a shelf, doing nobody any good anyway?




That's pretty much the state I've reached in the last few years: owning a thing (book) has no/small value in itself for me anymore.

When we re-organized our house two years ago we went through our library and decided what to keep and what to give or even throw away. While the first transfers to the give-away-pile felt painfull, I quickly got used to it and reduced my personal library to some 10% of its former size.

The fun is not in having/owning a book but in reading it. If I have to re-buy it or rent it again if I want to read it once more in a few years to come: so be it.

Notabene: I don't have an e-book reader and I hate reading larger PDFs on the monitor. If I buy such a device in the future I won't get all panicky that my precious contents may be not usable when I want to use it again. That I won't go the Amazon way of remote controlling my device and my reading habit is another matter, though.


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## Alzrius (Apr 11, 2014)

eBooks aren't on their way out. You know how I know?







"Print is dead." - Egon Spengler, 1984


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## Umbran (Apr 11, 2014)

Nellisir said:


> I'm just saying in 20 years, I will still know where I stand legally with a physical book. That's not true of ebooks.




I don't argue that.  I argue that I am not sure I *care*.  

As you yourself noted, Acts of God are a zero sum argument.  Same goes for nebulous worries about the future.  It's a boogeyman.  Maybe something bad could happen in the future!  Oh noes!

That's why I remarked that, from the horde of physical books I already own, I reread only a handful.  If I had to re-purchase every one that I reread, it would not be a major financial burden.  Thus, if I were to create a collection of ebooks, and lose access to them, would this really have an impact on me?  Setting aside "the principle of the thing" would it really matter in my day-to-day life?  I am not convinced it'd be a big deal.

Thus, what might happen in 20 years doesn't really influence my choice of format today.  I choose based off what I want in my experience *now*.  If I'm buying a gaming product, it is in physical form if reasonably possible.  If I'm intending to read it on my commute, it is probably in ebook format.  If I'm intending to read it at home, it could be either.  And so on.


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## nerfherder (Apr 11, 2014)

Jan van Leyden said:


> The fun is not in having/owning a book but in reading it. If I have to re-buy it or rent it again if I want to read it once more in a few years to come: so be it.



That's the conclusion I came to, after moving house twice recently.

I feel the urge to collect and horde, but I try to fight it so that I have room for the things that I will use.

One side-effect of owning an e-reader has been that I have visited some of the classics that I never got round to previously - HG Wells, Arthur Conan Doyle, Edgar Rice Burroughs, etc.  I know that I could pick them up from the library, but I just never got round to it.  With my Kindle it's just so easy to get hold of them for free.

Then I've gotten books in sales - like the first 6 Game of Thrones for 99p each - so I've not actually spent much money beyond the initial outlay for the reader.

I find the format more comfortable and convenient, and once I'm drawn into the book, I don't notice the physical format.


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