# Converting Monsters from D&D Official Video Games



## Shade (Jan 2, 2004)

This thread will work just like BOZ's conversion threads.  For a list of monsters to work from, see this list: 

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=73170

First up is the Bit O' Moander, from Curse of the Azure Bonds and Pools of Darkness, as requested by zeo_evil in another thread.   This guy is a bit tricky, since unlike most of the monsters in the "Gold Box" games, his stats were not listed in the Adventure Journals.

For a picture of the Bit O' Moander:
http://wizard.ecohost.com/curse.htm

Here is what we do know:
-The Bit o' Moander is plantlike, for the wand of defoliation in CotAB damaged it the same as the shambling mounds.
-140 hp 
-AC 0
-It has poison and ability to petrify victims.
-IIRC, it was 3x3 squares in the game, which would make it 15x15 and Huge in 3.5 terms.

Moander (The Darkbringer, the Jawed God, the Rotting God, the Great Dread God) was an ancient God of rot, corruption and decay, who enjoyed tormenting lesser beings and making them destroy that which they held most dear. The Darkbringer was known at various times throughout history as She, He and even It, and sought to control every aspect of it's worshipper's lives, viewing them only as puppets. It sought to corrupt and destroy all who would not bow down before it. Apparently Moander has been killed on it's own plane, but by whom is not really known.

From the FR Timeline:

75  Year of Clinging Death
Moander the Darkbringer hurls his forces and the "creeping evil" against the elven city of Tsornyl, blighting much of the surrounding woods. The magic of Moander twists all life, both follower and victim alike, into corrupt monsters, including deepspawn and shambling mounds. While the evil could not be destroyed, High Magic severed the creeping evil from Moander and imprisoned the corruption at Tsornyl (soon to be called the Darkwatch). This weakened the Darkbringer's presence in Toril, though it cost the lives of thirty-two elves, including two High Mages, to sever and bind the power. 

171 Year of Unkind Weapons 
The elves of Cormanthyr complete a two-year-long seige and running battle to destroy the sole surviving temple of Moander in the northern forest (at the site of modern Yulash). The elves raze the temple after slaying all of Moander's priests. The Coronal and sixteen of Cormanthyr's High Mages cast the binding High Magic that banishes the Jawed God from the Realms until it is freed by a nonborn child.   From this time foward, Moander remains a lurking evil trapped beneath the ruins of his final temple. 

Now, I could see us approaching this in several different ways.

1.)  We could make it an Aspect of Moander (from the Miniatures Handbook).
2.)  We could make it an Outsider with plantlike traits.
3.)  We could make it an advanced shambling mound with additional properties.

Personally, I like option 2.  What are your opinions?


----------



## zeo_evil (Jan 3, 2004)

Abomination of Moander
Huge Outsider (Chaotic, Evil)
Hit Dice: 24d8+192 (300 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), burrow 30 ft.
AC: 35 (+3 Dex, +24 Natural, -2 Size) touch 11, flat-footed 32
Base Attack/Grapple: +24/+39
Attack: Slam
Full Attack: 2 slams, bite
Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks:Constrict, improved grab
Special Qualities: Darkvision 120 ft., immunity to electricity, low-light vision, plant traits, resistance to fire 20
Saves: Fort +22, Ref +17, Will +16
Abilities: Str 25, Dex 15, Con 27, Int 17, Wis 15, Cha 19


Constrict
Improved Grab
Immunity to Electricity

Big Shambling Mound. Start here?


----------



## Shade (Jan 5, 2004)

Thanks for the suggestions!   I lowered the HD a bit, to keep it closer to its orignal 140 hp.  I kept the Dex low, as it seemed kind of lumbering.   Any reason for recommending the burrow speed?

Here are the preliminary stats.   I haven't played the game in several years, so I can't remember the details of its petrification and poison (online walkthroughs state that it can deliver both these affects), so correct me if I'm wrong on the delivery methods.

*Bit o' Moander*
Huge Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 15d8+75 (142 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), swim 20 ft.
Armor Class: 20 (–2 size, +12 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +15/+32
Attack: Slam +23 melee (2d8+9 plus poison)
Full Attack: 2 slams +23 melee (2d8+9 plus poison)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft
Special Attacks: Improved grab, constrict 2d8+13, petrifying gaze, poison
Special Qualities: Darkvision 120 ft., immunity to electricity, low-light vision, plant traits, resistance to fire 20
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +11, Will +11
Abilities: Str 29, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 17, Wis 15, Cha 19
Skills: Climb +27, Hide +14*, Intimidate +22, Jump +27, Listen +24, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +21, Knowledge (nature) +21, Knowledge (religion) +21, Knowledge (the planes) +21, Move Silently +22, Spot +20, Survival +2 (+4 aboveground in natural environments, +4 underground, +4 on other planes), Swim +17
Feats: Awesome Blow, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, Iron Will, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (slam)
Environment: Infinite Layers of the Abyss
Organization: Solitary, pair, or pod (3-8)
Challenge Rating: 13
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: 16–30 HD (Huge); 31–45 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: -

_Standing nearly 15 feet tall, this hulking green mass of slime, fungus and rotting vegetation has a vaguely humanoid shape.  It reeks of decay._

Originally formed when the imprisoned god Moander attempted to return to the Material Plane via a gate opened by its high priestess Mogion, a bit o' Moander is a severed portion of the Rotting God.   Although it contains but a fraction of the Jawed God's power, a bit o' Moander is still a formidable force of destruction.

A bit o' Moander is 15 feet tall and weighs 8,000 pounds.

A bit o' Moander speaks Common and Abyssal in a deep, gurgling voice, but rarely chooses to converse with other creatures.

COMBAT

A bit o' Moander batters or constricts its opponents with two huge, armlike appendages, while attempting to petrify foes with its deadly gaze.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a bit o' Moander must hit with both slam attacks. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

Constrict (Ex): A bit o' Moander deals 2d8+13 points of damage with a successful grapple check.

Petrifying Gaze (Su): Turn to stone permanently, range 30 feet; Fortitude DC 21 negates. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Poison (Ex): Injury, Fortitude DC 22, initial damage 1d6 Con, secondary damage 2d6 Con. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Immunity to Electricity (Ex): A bit o' Moander takes no damage from electricity. Instead, any electricity attack used against a A bit o' Moander temporarily grants it 1d4 points of Constitution. The bit o' Moander loses these points at the rate of 1 per hour.

Skills: A bit o' Moander has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.  A bit o' Moander has a +4 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, and Move Silently checks. *It has a +12 racial bonus on Hide checks when in a swampy or forested area.

The bit o' Moander first appeared in the SSI computer game _Curse of the Azure Bonds_ (1989), and later appeared in the SSI computer game _Pools of Darkness_, (1991).


----------



## Shade (Jan 5, 2004)

Further research reveals that there is a more powerful version, the Red Bit o' Moander, in the Pools of Darkness game.   I vaguely remember these guys.  Here is a quote from a walkthru:  "The insta-death-by-poison, basically-immune-to-magic Red Bits o' Moander are also obnoxious)."

Should we make the red bits o' Moander next, and give them SR and stronger poison?


----------



## Shade (Jan 8, 2004)

Updated the stats in the previous post.  Research indicates that Moander's realm was the 223rd layer of the Abyss, hence the environment line and languages.

Any suggestions on the CR?  I have it at 13, but it may be too low.


----------



## Krishnath (Jan 8, 2004)

Calculations indicate that CR 13 is about right.


----------



## Shade (Jan 8, 2004)

Thanks!


----------



## Krishnath (Jan 9, 2004)

[chanelling Arnold]No problemo[/Arnold]


----------



## Shade (Jan 14, 2004)

I may try to reinstall Pools of Darkness and see if I can learn more about the red bits o' moander.  In the meantime, moving on...


From the _Pools of Darkness_ Adventure Journal:

Pet of Kalistes
AC:-1 HD:13 Mv:18 Int: High Size: L
Align: CE THAC0/:7 Att:3 MR:85%
Dmg: 2d8/2d6/2d6 Spec Att: Poisonous bite, magic
Spec Def: Blink, immunities XP: 14000

These are highly intelligent spiders created by the Marilith Kalistes.  She uses them as guards and messengers.  Their bite is so poisonous that a target must save versus poison at -2 or die.  They can see invisible objects and can cast the following spells once per day:  Death spell, Disintegrate, Feeblemind, Fire Touch, Fire Shield and Charm Monsters.  They are immune to poison, death effects and charm.



I pretty much finished this one awhile back, but I'm open to suggestions.  Although it did not state that it was a demon, it seemed appropriate to make it one, similar to the bebelith.

*Pet of Kalistes*
Huge Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Evil)
Hit Dice: 13d8+104 (162 hp)
Initiative: +5
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares), climb 20 ft.
AC: 21 (–2 size, +1 Dex, +12 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +13/+24
Attack: Bite +19 melee (2d6+7 plus poison)
Full Attack: Bite +19 melee (2d8+7 plus poison) and 2 claws +14 melee (2d6+3)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Poison, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Blink, damage reduction 10/good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to charms, death effects, and poison, spell resistance 28, telepathy 100 ft.
Saves: Fort +16, Ref +9, Will +12
Abilities: Str 24, Dex 12, Con 26, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 18
Skills: Bluff +20, Climb +15, Concentration +18, Diplomacy +20, Hide +17, Intimidate +20, Knowledge (the planes) +18, Listen +18, Move Silently +17, Sense Motive +18, Spellcraft +18, Spot +18
Feats: Ability Focus (poison), Improved Initiative, Improved Grapple, Iron Will, Power Attack
Environment: Infinite Layers of the Abyss
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 10
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: 14–22 HD (Huge); 23–39 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: -

_This huge, purple spider's eyes gleam with a fiendish intellect._

These are highly intelligent spiders created by the marilith Kalistes. She uses them as guards and messengers.

A Pet of Kalistes has a legspan of more than 14 feet and weighs over 2,000 pounds.

A Pet of Kalistes speaks Abyssal.

COMBAT

A Pet of Kalistes usually activates its fire shield before entering combat, then relies on its formidable combat prowess to poison as many foes as possible. It saves its spell-like abilities for difficult opponents, targeting spellcasters with feeblemind.

A Pet of Kalistes’ natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as chaotic-aligned and evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Poison (Ex): Injury, Fortitude DC 26, initial damage 1d6 Con, secondary damage 2d6 Con. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—_charm monster_ (DC 18), _disintegrate_ (DC 20), _feeblemind_ (DC 19), _fire shield, scorching ray_. Caster level 13th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Blink (Su): A Pet of Kalistes can use blink as the spell (caster level 13th), and can evoke or end the effect as a free action.

See Invisibility (Su): A Pet of Kalistes continuously uses this ability, as the spell (caster level 13th).

Skills: A Pet of Kalistes has a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened. They also have a +8 racial bonus on Hide checks.

The Pet of Kalistes first appeared in the SSI computer game _Pools of Darkness_, (1991).


----------



## Krishnath (Jan 15, 2004)

I suggest you reduce their weigth to about 2000 lbs.


----------



## Shade (Jan 15, 2004)

Changed the weight.  Thanks for the feedback.


----------



## Krishnath (Jan 15, 2004)

No problemo, may I suggest you give them the Tanar'ri subtype?


----------



## Shade (Jan 15, 2004)

I'm not opposed to it, but is there a particular reason?  They struck me as similar to bebeliths--demons, but not true tanar'ri.   

If we do make 'em true tanar'ri, we'll need to add the summon tanar'ri ability.  Any suggestions on what to summon?


----------



## Shade (Jan 20, 2004)

Any other thoughts on this one?


----------



## Krishnath (Jan 21, 2004)

The summon Tanar'ri part is not needed, as not all tanar'ri has it.

But it is up to you.


----------



## Shade (Jan 22, 2004)

I think I'm going to leave it as a non-tanar'ri, mainly because they were created by a marilith.   Also, they struck me as serving a role similar to the yochlol, which also (at this time, at least) do not have the tanar'ri subtype.


----------



## Shade (Jan 22, 2004)

Moving on, here's another resident of the marilith Kaliste's domain.

From the _Pools of Darkness_ Adventure Journal:

Electric Spider
AC:4 HD:5 Mv:12 Int: Low Size: L
Align: CE THAC0/:15 Att:1 Dmg:2d4
Spec Att: Lightning breath
Spec Def: Immunity to electricity XP:650

Electric spiders can be found throughout Kalistes dimension.  They can
breathe a lightning bolt similar to that of a blue dragon's.  They
favor narrow confines where they can bounce their bolt through a
victim several times.


I'm thinking Magical Beast (Extraplanar) for these guys.  Any thoughts?


----------



## Krishnath (Jan 22, 2004)

Magical Beast (Extraplanar) definetly. Perhaps the electricity subtype as well.


----------



## Shade (Jan 22, 2004)

Cool.  Is there an Electricity subtype?   I couldn't find one in the Types and Subtypes chapter of the MM.


----------



## Krishnath (Jan 22, 2004)

Not officially, but the electricity and acid subtypes are the logical extention of the cold and fire subtypes.

Using this logic, a creature with the electricity subtype would have electricity immunity and acid vulnerability.

Does that make sense to anyone besides me?


----------



## Shade (Jan 22, 2004)

It is very logical.  Quite frankly, I believe that many more subtypes should exist.  I think Shadow should be a subtype, as well as Positive and Negative, which might explain how the xeg-ya and xeg-yi exist on their respective planes.    

Since Electricity isn't a current subtype, let's just go with Magical Beast (Extraplanar) for now.  I like the idea of vulnerability to acid, though.

Here's a starting stat block:

*Electric Spider*
Large Magical Beast (Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 5d10+15 (42 hp)
Initiative: +7
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), climb 20 ft.
AC: 16 (–1 size, +3 Dex, +4 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+12
Attack: Bite +7 melee (1d8+4 plus 2d6 electricity)
Full Attack: Bite +7 melee (1d8+4 plus 2d6 electricity)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Breath weapon, shock
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., immunity to electricity, low-light vision, vulnerability to acid
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +7, Will +2
Abilities: Str 17, Dex 16, Con 17, Int 5, Wis 13, Cha 10
Skills: Climb +11, Hide -1, Listen +5, Move Silently +7
Feats: Ability Focus (breath weapon), Improved Initiative
Environment: Infinite Layers of the Abyss
Organization: Solitary, pair, or pack (5-8)
Challenge Rating: 6
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: 6–8 HD (Large); 9–15 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: -

_This large blue arachnid has a thick abdomen and pulses with electricity._

Electric spiders can be found throughout Kalistes' domain.

A typical electric spider’s body is 8 feet long. It weighs about 800 pounds.

Electric spiders cannot speak.

COMBAT

Electric spiders favor narrow confines where they can catch multiple victims with their breath weapons.

Breath Weapon (Su): The electric spider has one type of breath weapon, a 60 ft. line of electricity that deals 5d6 points of damage. A reflex save (DC 17) halves the damage.  The save DC is Consitution-based.

Shock (Ex): An electric spider's bite attack deals piercing damage plus 2d6 electricity damage from the spider's shocking body. Creatures hitting an electric spider with natural weapons or unarmed attacks take electricity damage as though hit by the spider's attack.

Skills: An electric spider has a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened.

The electric spider first appeared in the SSI computer game _Pools of Darkness_, (1991).


----------



## Krishnath (Jan 23, 2004)

As for the breathweapon, I suggest it works like a _lightning bolt_.

Like this:

*Breathweapon (Su):* The electric spider has one type of breathweapon, a 60' line of electricity that deals 5d6 points of damage. A reflex save (DC X) halves the damage.

Sound good?


----------



## Shade (Jan 23, 2004)

Excellent.       I added it to the stat block above.


----------



## Shade (Jan 26, 2004)

I'm thinking of the following ability scores:

Str 17, Dex 16, Con 17, Int 5, Wis 13, Cha 10

I based these on the phase spider, making it slightly less agile but more hearty, based on the original artwork which showed it as more of a squat, thick spider.

Any thoughts?


----------



## Krishnath (Jan 28, 2004)

Sounds good to me. D&D needs more spiders.


----------



## Shade (Jan 28, 2004)

I updated the stat block above to account for the stats.  I was also thinking of adding the following:

Shock (Ex): An electric spider's bite attack deals piercing damage plus 2d6 electricity damage from the spider's shocking body. Creatures hitting an electric spider with natural weapons or unarmed attacks take electricity damage as though hit by the spider's attack.

What do you think?


----------



## Krishnath (Jan 28, 2004)

Sounds good to me.


----------



## Shade (Jan 28, 2004)

For skills, I was thinking Listen (4), Move Silently (4), and because of its climb speed...

Skills: An electric spider has a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened.

Feats: Ability Focus (breath weapon), Improved Initiative?

Any thoughts on the organization?


----------



## Krishnath (Jan 28, 2004)

Skills and feats sound good, as for their organization, how about...

*Organization:* Solitary, pair, or pack (5-8)


----------



## Shade (Jan 28, 2004)

I like it.   OK, it looks like all that's left is the CR.  Does 5 sound reasonable?


----------



## Krishnath (Jan 30, 2004)

Better go with CR 6 due to it's abilities.


----------



## Shade (Jan 30, 2004)

6 it is.

On to the next one...


From the _Pools of Darkness_ Adventure Journal:

Gaze Spider
AC:4 HD:5 Mv:12 Int: Low Size: L
Align: CE THAC0/:15 Att:1 Dmg:2d4
Spec Att: Paralyzation gaze XP:420

A common denizen of Kalistes dimension are the fierce gaze spiders.
Any creature who meets their gaze must save versus paralyzation or
become paralyzed.  Mirrors and other reflective surfaces can be used
to turn their gazes against them.


This one should be fairly easy, since its stats are nearly identical to the electric spider.


----------



## Shade (Jan 30, 2004)

Here's a starting stat block:

*Gaze Spider*
Large Magical Beast (Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 5d10+20 (47 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), climb 20 ft.
AC: 16 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +5 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+12
Attack: Bite +7 melee (1d8+4)
Full Attack: Bite +7 melee (1d8+4)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Paralyzing gaze
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +6, Will +4
Abilities: Str 17, Dex 14, Con 19, Int 5, Wis 13, Cha 10
Skills: Climb +11, Hide -2, Listen +5, Move Silently +6
Feats: Ability Focus (gaze), Iron Will
Environment: Infinite Layers of the Abyss
Organization: Solitary, pair, or pack (5-8)
Challenge Rating: 6
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: 6–8 HD (Large); 9–15 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: -

_This eight-foot long arachnid has short legs and a bulbous abdomen.  Its eight eyes are much larger than normal for a spider of its size._

A common denizen of Kalistes' dimension are the fierce gaze spiders.

A typical gaze spider’s body is 8 feet long. It weighs about 900 pounds.

Gaze spiders cannot speak.

COMBAT

Gaze spiders attempt to paralyze foes with their gaze, then close to finish the others with their bite.

Paralyzing Gaze (Su): Paralysis 1d6 rounds, 30 feet, Fortitude DC 14 negates. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Skills: A gaze spider has a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened.

The gaze spider first appeared in the SSI computer game _Pools of Darkness_, (1991).


----------



## Krishnath (Jan 31, 2004)

I suggest the following, give the gaze spider the same abilities as the electric spider, but increase it's Dex by two, and reduce the con by the same amount. I suggest giving it a natural armor of +6.


----------



## Shade (Feb 2, 2004)

I like the ability scores suggestion.  I made the natural armor lower to keep its converted AC inline with the original AC.

I updated the stat block above.  The save DC for its gaze is pretty weak, so I'm thinking Ability Focus (gaze) will be one of its feats.  Any suggestions for the other feat?


----------



## Shade (Feb 5, 2004)

Also, for skills, shall we use the same as the electric spider...Listen (4), Move Silently (4)?


----------



## Krishnath (Feb 6, 2004)

Lightning Reflexes, and yes.


----------



## Shade (Feb 6, 2004)

Thanks, Krishnath.   I looked at the Adventure Journal for the game last night, and realized I'd mixed up the appearances of the gaze spider and the stone spider, which is up next.   The stone spider is actually long-legged and thinner than the electric spider, while the gaze spider is fatter and has short legs.   So, I think I'll save the ability score mods you suggested for the stone spider, and reverse them for the gaze spider  (-2 Dex, +2 Con).  I'll update the stat block to reflect the changes.


----------



## Shade (Feb 6, 2004)

Stat block has been updated.   Do you want to stick with Lightning Reflexes for this critter?

CR 5 or 6?


----------



## Krishnath (Feb 7, 2004)

Exchange Lightning Reflexes with Great Fortitude or Iron Will. CR 6


----------



## Shade (Feb 8, 2004)

Updated.  I think this guy is finished.  The stone spider is up next...


----------



## Shade (Feb 9, 2004)

Stone Spider
AC:4 HD:5 Mv:12 Int:Low Size: L
Align: CE THAC0/:15 Att:1 Dmg:2d4
Spec Att: Petrification attack XP:650

Stone Spiders are one of the common spiders that exist in the Kalistes
dimension.  As large as a Hugh spider, these magical arachnids turn
their prey into stone and bring the stoned creatures to their lair for
later feeding.

Using Krishnath's suggestions from earlier when I mixed up the stone and gaze spiders (Con -2, Dex +2, Lightning Reflexes), here are the preliminary stats...

*Stone Spider*
Large Magical Beast (Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 5d10+10 (37 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), climb 20 ft.
AC: 16 (–1 size, +4 Dex, +3 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+12
Attack: Bite +7 melee (1d8+4 plus petrifying touch)
Full Attack: Bite +7 melee (1d8+4 plus petrifying touch)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Petrifying touch
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +10, Will +2
Abilities: Str 17, Dex 18, Con 15, Int 5, Wis 13, Cha 10
Skills: Climb +11, Listen +5, Move Silently +5
Feats: Ability Focus (petrifying touch), Lightning Reflexes
Environment: Infinite Layers of the Abyss
Organization: Solitary, pair, or pack (5-8)
Challenge Rating: 6
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: 6–8 HD (Large); 9–15 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: -

_This long-legged arachnid has a stony exoskeleton._

Stone spiders are one of the common spiders that exist in Kalistes' dimension. These magical arachnids turn their prey into stone and bring the stoned creatures to their lair for later feeding.

A typical stone spider’s body is 8 feet long. It weighs about 800 pounds.

Stone spiders cannot speak.

COMBAT

Stone spiders attempt to petrify as many foes as possible, feeding on the victims after the battle.

Petrifying Touch (Su): Turn to stone permanently, Fortitude DC 16 negates. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Skills: A stone spider has a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened.

The stone spider first appeared in the SSI computer game _Pools of Darkness_, (1991).


So, should we use the same skills as the other two: Listen (4), Move Silently (4)?   CR 6?


----------



## Krishnath (Feb 10, 2004)

Yes, and change the Ability Focus (Gaze) feat to Ability Focus (Petrifying Touch)


----------



## Shade (Feb 10, 2004)

D'oh!   The hazards of cut n' paste.


----------



## Shade (Feb 10, 2004)

OK, we're done with the _Pools of Darkness_ spiders, now on to the snakes!


Cryo Snake
AC:5 HD:4 Mv:15 Int: Animal Size: L
Align: N THAC0/:17 Att:1 Dmg:1d3
Spec Att: Cold breath
Spec Def: Immunity to cold XP:240

These fierce snakes prefer to inhabit glaciers and high peaks. Humans will rarely confront these beasts unless they move to higher elevations during exceptionally cold winters. Their breath is identical to that of a white dragon.


*Cryo Snake*
Large Magical Beast (Cold)
Hit Dice: 4d10+8 (30 hp)
Initiative: +7
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), climb 40 ft., swim 40 ft.
AC: 15 (–1 size, +3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+11
Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d4+3)
Full Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d4+3)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Breath weapon, constrict, improved grab
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., immunity to cold, low-light vision, vulnerability to fire
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +2
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Skills: Balance +11, Climb +10, Hide +6*, Listen +7, Spot +7
Feats: Ability Focus (breath weapon), Improved Initiative
Environment: Cold mountains
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 3
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 4–8 HD (Large); 9–12 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: -

_This large serpent's scales are as white as snow. Puffs of frost appear around its fanged mouth with each breath._.

These fierce snakes prefer to inhabit glaciers and high peaks. Humans will rarely confront these beasts unless they move to higher elevations during exceptionally cold winters. 

A typical cryo snake is 12 feet long. It weighs about 200 pounds.

Cryo snakes cannot speak.

COMBAT

A cryo snake uses its natural coloration to its advantage, and will usually attempt to ambush opponents, opening combat with its breath weapon to catch as many foes as possible.

Breath Weapon (Su): Breath Weapon (Su): 30-foot cone, every 1d4 rounds, 4d6 cold, Reflex DC 16 half. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Constrict (Ex): On a successful grapple check, a cryo snake deals 1d4+2 points of damage.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a cryo snake must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

Skills: Snakes have a +4 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, and Spot checks and a +8 racial bonus on Balance and Climb checks. A snake can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened. Snakes use either their Strength modifier or Dexterity modifier for Climb checks, whichever is higher. A snake has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

*A cryo snake has a +8 racial bonus on Hide checks in snowy areas.

The cryo snake first appeared in the SSI computer game _Pools of Darkness_, (1991).


First off, should we use the physical stats of a Large viper (Str 10, Dex 17, Con 11)?


----------



## Krishnath (Feb 11, 2004)

Better up the Str and Con by +4


----------



## Shade (Feb 11, 2004)

Cool.  I updated the stat block to reflect these stats.

Should we give it improved grab and constrict?


----------



## Krishnath (Feb 12, 2004)

Why not.


----------



## Shade (Feb 12, 2004)

Cool.  Now we need the breath weapon.  Since it says it is like that of a white dragon, it's gonna be a cone of cold.

Breath Weapon (Su): X-foot cone, every 1d4 rounds, X cold, Reflex DC 14 half.   The save DC is Constitution-based.

How does 30-foot cone and 4d6 cold sound?


----------



## Krishnath (Feb 13, 2004)

Sounds about right. The save DC would be 14.


----------



## Shade (Feb 13, 2004)

Updated.  Now we need to pick feats and skills.  I think Ability Focus (breath weapon) is a no-brainer, but the other one is up for grabs.

For skills, I'm thinking of some combination of Hide, Listen, and Spot.

Should its climb and swim speeds be the same as its base land speed (like all the snakes in the MM)?


----------



## Krishnath (Feb 15, 2004)

Yes, that seems reasonable, as for the second feat, I susggest Improved Initiative.


----------



## Shade (Feb 17, 2004)

OK, this one's about finished.  We still need length, weight, and CR.   Also, I was thinking of giving it a bonus to Hide checks in snowy environments.   Any thoughts?


----------



## Krishnath (Feb 17, 2004)

Sounds good, how about a +8 racial bonus to Hide checks in snowy enviroments?

As for the CR 2 or 3, I'm partial to CR 3 as the breathweapon deals quite a bit of damage on a good roll.


----------



## Shade (Feb 17, 2004)

That all sounds good.   Does 12 foot long and 400 lbs. sound reasonable?   I'm having a difficult time finding comparable creatures, since the MM snakes don't list their lengths and weights.


----------



## Shade (Feb 19, 2004)

Moving on to the next one...


Pyro Snake
AC:5 HD:4 Mv:15 Int: Animal Size: L
Align: N THAC0/:17 Att:1 Dmg:1d3
Spec Att: Fire breath
Spec Def: Immunity to fire XP:420

This breed of snakes prefers to live in desolate deserts or inside
volcanoes. There they form loose family associations. Dealing rarely
with humans, they consider people to be another form of prey. Their
breath is identical to that of a red dragon.


*Pyro Snake*
Large Magical Beast (Fire)
Hit Dice: 4d10+8 (30 hp)
Initiative: +7
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), climb 40 ft., swim 40 ft.
AC: 15 (–1 size, +3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+11
Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d4+3)
Full Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d4+3)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Breath weapon, constrict, improved grab
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., immunity to fire, low-light vision, vulnerability to cold
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +2
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Skills: Balance +11, Climb +10, Hide +6, Listen +7, Spot +7
Feats: Ability Focus (breath weapon), Improved Initiative
Environment: Warm deserts
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 3
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 4–8 HD (Large); 9–12 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: -

_This large serpent's scales range from dark red to orange on its underbelly. Shimmering heat radiates from its entire length. Licks of flame appear around its forked tongue, which darts out of a fanged mouth._.

This breed of snakes prefers to live in desolate deserts or inside volcanoes. There they form loose family associations. Dealing rarely with humans, they consider people to be another form of prey. 

A typical pyro snake is 12 feet long. It weighs about 200 pounds.

Pyro snakes cannot speak.

COMBAT

A pyro snake often swims through magma or races across desert sands, opening combat with its breath weapon to catch as many foes as possible.

Breath Weapon (Su): Breath Weapon (Su): 30-foot cone, every 1d4 rounds, 4d6 fire, Reflex DC 16 half. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Constrict (Ex): On a successful grapple check, a pyro snake deals 1d4+2 points of damage.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a pyro snake must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

Skills: Snakes have a +4 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, and Spot checks and a +8 racial bonus on Balance and Climb checks. A snake can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened. Snakes use either their Strength modifier or Dexterity modifier for Climb checks, whichever is higher. A snake has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

The pyro snake first appeared in the SSI computer game _Pools of Darkness_, (1991).


This should go pretty fast, as it is basically the opposite of the cryo snake. 

Thoughts:

Should we stick with Improved Initiative as the second feat?
For skills, should we go with Hide, Listen, and Spot again?
Should the physical ability scores differ from the cryo snake (Str 14, Dex 17, Con 15)?


----------



## Krishnath (Feb 23, 2004)

For the thoughts: yes, yes, and no.

For the cryo snake, I suggest halving the weight, it is a snake, not a croc.


----------



## Shade (Feb 23, 2004)

Cool.  I made all the changes based on your suggestions.  It looks like we're done with this one.


----------



## Shade (Feb 23, 2004)

These next ones are going to be a bit more challenging.

Also from _Pools of Darkness_:

Bane Minion, Black
AC:4 HD:8 Mv:15 Int: High Size:L
Align: CE THAC0/:13 Att:3
Dmg: 1d4/1d4/1d6
Spec Att: Acid breath, magic
Spec Def: See below XP:3000
Bane created three types of servants to serve his lieutenant, Gothmenes.  The black minions can breath a stream of acid identical to a black dragon.  They can see invisible objects and can cast the following spells once per day: cone of cold, hold monsters, ice storm, bestow curse, slow, and fumble.  They are immune to fear, poison, death effects, and charm.


Now, the first thing we have to deal with is alignment.   In the game, these creatures were Chaotic Evil.  They serve Gothmenes, a balor (CE).  However, Bane is, and to my knowledge always has been, Lawful Evil.   Thus, he really shouldn't have CE minions and demonic servants (he also had a marilith and glabrezu serving him as lieutenants).

So, should we keep them Bane Minions and make them Lawful or Neutral Evil, or make them minions of some CE god and change their name?   Or leave them as CE, despite the alignment conflict with their master?   I think I'd prefer to make 'em LE or NE to put them more in line with Bane.


----------



## Shade (Mar 1, 2004)

*_Bump!_*


----------



## Krishnath (Mar 1, 2004)

I say, change their Alignment to LE.


----------



## Shade (Mar 1, 2004)

Thanks!  I'll get going on 'em in a minute.


----------



## Shade (Mar 1, 2004)

*Bane Minion, Black*
Large Outsider (Extraplanar, Evil, Lawful)
Hit Dice: 8d8+24 (60 hp)
Initiative: +7
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), fly 40 ft. (average)
AC: 16 (–1 size, +3 Dex, +4 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +8/+17
Attack: Claw +12 melee (1d6+5)
Full Attack: 2 claws +12 melee (1d6+5) and bite +7 melee (1d8+2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Breath weapon, _fumble_, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 5/good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to charms, death effects, fear, and poison
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +9, Will +9
Abilities: Str 21, Dex 17, Con 17, Int 13, Wis 16, Cha 15
Skills: Bluff +11, Concentration +12, Diplomacy +6, Hide +8, Intimidate +13, Knowledge (the planes) +10, Knowledge (religion) +10, Listen +12, Move Silently +12, Search +10, Sense Motive +12, Spot +12
Feats: Cleave, Improved Initiative, Power Attack
Environment: The Barrens of Doom and Despair (Infernal Battlefields of Acheron)
Organization: Solitary, pair, or squad (3-20)
Challenge Rating: 6
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always lawful evil
Advancement: 9–15 HD (Large); 16–24 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: +6

_This creature stands nearly 9 feet tall, with a vaguely humanoid shape. Its body appears slightly draconic, and it is covered in black scales. Batlike wings and round out its draconic appearance._

Bane created three types of servants to serve his lieutenant, Gothmenes. These bane minions come in black, blue, and red varieties.

A black bane minion is 9 feet tall and weighs about 600 pounds.

Bane minions speak Infernal, Common and Draconic.

Combat

A black bane minion opens with its breath weapon, then uses its spell-like abilities to great effect.

A bane minon's natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as lawful-aligned and evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

*Breath Weapon (Su):* 60-foot line of acid, once every 1d4 rounds, damage 6d8 acid, Reflex DC 17 half. The save DC is Constitution-based.

*Fumble (Sp):* Once per day, a bane minion can create a 30-foot cube in which all creatures suddenly become clumsy and awkward. This cube lasts for 8 rounds. Creatures in the area must make a DC 16 Will save each round. Success means that the creature is unaffected that round, but a new save must be made again in the next round unless it leaves the area. Affected creatures who take a double move or are charging fall prone. Creatures drop all held items, and cannot pick up objects. Alternatively, the spell can be cast at an individual creature. The creature must make a DC 16 Will save or be affected for the spell's entire duration (8 rounds); success means the creature is _slowed_ (as the spell) for 8 rounds. This is a mind-affecting, enchantment effect. Caster level 8th. The save DC is Charisma-based.

*Spell-Like Abilities:* 1/day—_bestow curse_ (DC 16), _cone of cold_ (DC 17), _hold monster_ (DC 17), _ice storm, slow_ (DC 15). Caster level 8th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

*See Invisibility (Su):* A black bane minion continuously uses this ability, as the spell (caster level 8th).

The black bane minion first appeared in the SSI computer game _Pools of Darkness_, (1991).


----------



## Krishnath (Mar 1, 2004)

DR 5/good sounds about right.

Str 21, Dex 14, Con 17, wis 16, Cha 15?


----------



## Shade (Mar 1, 2004)

Looks good, except lets bump Dex to 17 (same as red abishai), as these guys are kinda abishai-like.

In the game, flight wasn't possible, but it did have draconic wings.   What do you think would be a good fly speed/maneuverability?  The abishai are 50 ft. (poor) and a succubus is 50 ft. (average).


----------



## Krishnath (Mar 2, 2004)

Fly 40' (average)?


----------



## Shade (Mar 2, 2004)

Sounds good.  Updated again.   

Shall we set caster level for spell-likes equal to HD (8th)?

I'm thinking 6d8 for breath weapon damage.  Does that sound reasonable?

For languages, Infernal, Common and Draconic?


----------



## Filby (Mar 2, 2004)

One nitpick: perhaps you ought to change its home plane? Bane never lived in Baator... in 3E he lives in 'the Barrens of Doom and Despair' or some such, while in 2E he lived in Acheron.


----------



## BOZ (Mar 3, 2004)

LOL  filby, love your new avatar.


----------



## Filby (Mar 3, 2004)

I thought you would.


----------



## Shade (Mar 3, 2004)

Good catch, Filby!   I updated the Environment with this information.  

I could have sworn there was a chart in one of the books that showed equivalent planes if you aren't using the FR Cosmology, but I can't seem to find it.   In the meantime, I'll leave Acheron in parentheses after The Barrens of Doom and Despair for those who aren't using FR.

I dig the avatar, too.


----------



## Shade (Mar 4, 2004)

Any thoughts on this?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Shall we set caster level for spell-likes equal to HD (8th)?
> 
> I'm thinking 6d8 for breath weapon damage. Does that sound reasonable?
> 
> For languages, Infernal, Common and Draconic?


----------



## Krishnath (Mar 4, 2004)

yes, yes, and yes.


----------



## Shade (Mar 4, 2004)

Great!   Updated.  On to feats and skills.

For feats, I'm thinking Ability Focus (breath weapon) is a given.  Any thoughts on other feats?  (It gets 3 total.)

For skills how about:  Bluff, Concentration, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (the planes), Knowledge (religion), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot. (9 ranks each, 99 total ranks)?


----------



## Krishnath (Mar 5, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Great!   Updated.  On to feats and skills.
> 
> For feats, I'm thinking Ability Focus (breath weapon) is a given.  Any thoughts on other feats?  (It gets 3 total.)
> 
> For skills how about:  Bluff, Concentration, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (the planes), Knowledge (religion), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot. (9 ranks each, 99 total ranks)?



Feats: I suggest Power Attack, Cleave, and Improved Initiative (ignoring Ability Focus).

Skills: Sounds good.


----------



## Shade (Mar 8, 2004)

Krishnath, I decided to go with your feat suggestions and scrap Ability Focus.  I've gotten a bit carried away with that feat.   

Does anyone remember what the _fumble_ spell did in previous editions?   I don't think it exists in 3E, and I don't remember it from older editions.

Does CR 8 seem about right?   They seem to be on par with an erinyes or a vrock.

Should we give them a summon ability, similar to demons and devils?   They didn't have one in the game, but then again, neither did the demons or devils.


----------



## Krishnath (Mar 8, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Krishnath, I decided to go with your feat suggestions and scrap Ability Focus.  I've gotten a bit carried away with that feat.
> 
> Does anyone remember what the _fumble_ spell did in previous editions?   I don't think it exists in 3E, and I don't remember it from older editions.
> 
> ...



Good. 
I have no idea what the fumble spell did, as the only D&D experience I have outsider of 3E (and 3.5) is from classic computer RPG's such as Pool of Radiance, Death Knights of Krynn, and my favourite computer RPG of all time, Eye of the Beholder (the entire trilogy, Darkmoon was the best, up until the final tower).
CR 8 is to high, I would go with CR 6.
Summoning is good, but not necessary for this devil.


----------



## Shade (Mar 8, 2004)

Krish, I'll go with CR 6.  BOZ was kind enough to pass along the Fumble spell for us:

Fumble 
(Enchantment/Charm)

Range: 10 yds./level Components: V, S, M
Duration: 1 rd./level Casting Time: 4
Area of Effect: 30-ft. cube Saving Throw: Special

When a fumble spell is cast, the wizard creates an area in which all creatures suddenly become clumsy and awkward. Running creatures trip and fall, those reaching for an item drop it, those employing weapons likewise awkwardly drop them, etc. Recovery from a fall or picking up a fumbled object typically requires a successful saving throw and takes one round. Note that breakable items might suffer damage when dropped. A subject succeeding with his saving throw can act freely that round, but if he is in the area at the beginning of the next round, another saving throw is required. Alternatively, the spell can be cast at an individual creature. Failure to save means the creature is affected for the spell's entire duration; success means the creature is slowed (see the 3rd-level spell).
The material component of this spell is a dab of solidified milk fat.

So how does this look?

*Fumble (Sp):*  Once per day, a bane minion can create a 30-foot cube in which all creatures suddenly become clumsy and awkward.  This cube lasts for 8 rounds.  Creatures in the area must make a DC 16 Will save each round.  Success means that the creature is unaffected that round, but a new save must be made again in the next round unless it leaves the area.  Affected creatures who take a double move or are charging fall prone.  Creatures drop all held items, and cannot pick up objects.   Alternatively, the spell can be cast at an individual creature.  The creature must make a DC 16 Will save or be affected for the spell's entire duration (8 rounds); success means the creature is _slowed_ (as the spell) for 8 rounds.   This is a mind-affecting, enchantment effect.  Caster level 8th.  The save DC is Charisma-based.


----------



## Krishnath (Mar 9, 2004)

Looks good, but is it necessary?


----------



## Shade (Mar 9, 2004)

I'm not sure if it is necessary, but since it had so few spell-like abilities, I figured why not?    

BTW, Krishnath, I've never played the Eye of the Beholder series (although I do have them as part of one of the FR Classics sets).   Were their any new monsters in those games?


----------



## Krishnath (Mar 10, 2004)

Hmm, let's see.

EOB1: No new monsters
EOB2: Uh, Um, there was a miniature frost giant that was half plant, but he wasn't really a monster.
EOB3: Quite possibly, but I have no idea what they where called.


----------



## Shade (Mar 10, 2004)

Krishnath said:
			
		

> EOB2: Uh, Um, there was a miniature frost giant that was half plant, but he wasn't really a monster.



That sounds more like something for Demiurge's MST3K thread.   

Thanks for the info.  I'll have to give 'em a try one of these days.


----------



## Krishnath (Mar 10, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> That sounds more like something for Demiurge's MST3K thread.
> 
> Thanks for the info.  I'll have to give 'em a try one of these days.



You'll love the first two, the third one (Assault on Myth Drannor) is blah, but it has it's moments (the mausoleum in the graveyard rocks!). The thrid part of the trilogy (and the last tower in Legend of Darkmoon) are very bad compared to the rest of the trilogy mostly because they where made without Westwood Studioes. TSR suffered from hubris and where control freaks, which caused Westwood to pull out of the project, instead Creating Lands of Lore.

If you haven't played Lands of Lore, it is what Assault on Myth Drannor would have been like if TSR hadn't been a bunch of nitpicking nazies.


----------



## Shade (Mar 11, 2004)

Sounds like fun.  I'll have to look for Lands of Lore as well.

I think this guy is finished.   I updated him and filled in some of the blanks.  Let me know if anything's missing.  If not, it's on to the next one.


----------



## Krishnath (Mar 11, 2004)

Next.


----------



## Shade (Mar 12, 2004)

As you wishhhhh.......


Bane Minion, Blue
AC:2 HD:10 Mv:24 Int: High
Size:L Align: CE THAC0/:11 Att:3
Dmg: 1d6/1d6/2d6 Spec Att: lightning breath, lightning aura 
Spec Def: See below XP: 4000

Like the black bane minions, these creatures were created by Bane to serve Gothmenes. They can breathe a lightning bolt identical to a blue dragon.
They radiate electricity, so anyone who strikes them takes double damage in return. Like black minions, they can see invisible objects and are immune to fear,poison, death effects, and charm.


*Bane Minion, Blue*
Large Outsider (Extraplanar, Evil, Lawful)
Hit Dice: 10d8+40 (85 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 60 ft. (10 squares), fly 60 ft. (average)
AC: 18 (–1 size, +4 Dex, +5 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+20
Attack: Claw +15 melee (1d6+6)
Full Attack: 2 claws +15 melee (1d6+6) and bite +10 melee (2d6+3)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Breath weapon, electrical aura, _fumble_, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 10/good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to charms, death effects, electricity, fear, and poison
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +11, Will +10
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 19, Con 19, Int 14, Wis 17, Cha 16
Skills: Bluff +14, Concentration +15, Diplomacy +14, Hide +11, Intimidate +16, Knowledge (the planes) +14, Knowledge (religion) +14, Listen +14, Move Silently +15, Search +13, Sense Motive +14, Spot +14
Feats: Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Power Attack
Environment: The Barrens of Doom and Despair (Infernal Battlefields of Acheron)
Organization: Solitary, pair, or squad (3-20)
Challenge Rating: 8
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always lawful evil
Advancement: 11–19 HD (Large); 20–30 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: +6

_This creature stands nearly 11 feet tall, with a vaguely humanoid shape. Its body appears slightly draconic, and it is covered in blue scales. It has batlike wings that it wraps around its body like a cloak when furled. Its serpentine tail ends in a hammerlike mass of bone._

Bane created three types of servants to serve his lieutenant, Gothmenes. These bane minions come in black, blue, and red varieties.

A blue bane minion is 11 feet tall and weighs about 1,000 pounds.

Bane minions speak Infernal, Common and Draconic.

Combat

A blue bane minion opens with its breath weapon, then uses its spell-like abilities to great effect.

A bane minon's natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as lawful-aligned and evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

*Breath Weapon (Su):* 60-foot line of electricity, once every 1d4 rounds, damage 8d8 electricity, Reflex DC 19 half. The save DC is Constitution-based.

*Electrical Aura (Ex):* A creature hitting a blue bane minion with a melee attack takes 2d6 points of electricity damage (Reflex DC 19 half). If the creature is using a weapon that is mostly metallic (such as a sword, but not a wood-hafted axe), it is not allowed a saving throw. The save DC is Constitution-based.

*Fumble (Sp):* Once per day, a bane minion can create a 30-foot cube in which all creatures suddenly become clumsy and awkward. This cube lasts for 8 rounds. Creatures in the area must make a DC 17 Will save each round. Success means that the creature is unaffected that round, but a new save must be made again in the next round unless it leaves the area. Affected creatures who take a double move or are charging fall prone. Creatures drop all held items, and cannot pick up objects. Alternatively, the spell can be cast at an individual creature. The creature must make a DC 17 Will save or be affected for the spell's entire duration (10 rounds); success means the creature is _slowed_ (as the spell) for 10 rounds. This is a mind-affecting, enchantment effect. Caster level 10th. The save DC is Charisma-based.

*Spell-Like Abilities:* 1/day—_bestow curse_ (DC 17), _cone of cold_ (DC 18), _hold monster_ (DC 18), _ice storm, slow_ (DC 16). Caster level 10th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

*See Invisibility (Su):* A blue bane minion continuously uses this ability, as the spell (caster level 10th).

The blue bane minion first appeared in the SSI computer game _Pools of Darkness_, (1991).


----------



## Shade (Mar 12, 2004)

For stats, I'm thinking Str 23, Dex 19, Con 19, Int 13, Wis 17, Cha 16.

Breath weapon 8d8 electricity?

Caster level 10th?

Fly speed to 60 ft.?

DR 10/good?  (This would be comparable to 10-HD devils).



> They radiate electricity, so anyone who strikes them takes double damage in return.



Should we change this to a fixed amount of electricity damage?   Maybe do additional damage to those wielding metal weapons?


----------



## Krishnath (Mar 12, 2004)

All of it sounds good. Electricity damage should be 2d6 points of electricity damage to anyone that hit's the minion with a melee weapon, reflex save halves the damage. No save allowed if the weapon is mostly metallic.


----------



## Shade (Mar 12, 2004)

Good suggestion on the aura. It has been updated to reflect all this. I also gave it immunity to electricity (seemed like a no-brainer). Here's what we still need:

Skills: Same as the black (adding 2 ranks for the additional Hit Dice), and spread the additional 13 ranks to beef up those that aren't maxxed out?

Feats: Same as the black (Cleave, Improved Initiative, Power Attack) but add one more? If so, how about Ability Focus (electrical aura)?

Challenge Rating?

Weight: 1,000 lbs.?


----------



## Krishnath (Mar 13, 2004)

Skills: Sound good.

Feats: You're falling into the Ability Focus trap again, I suggest Combat Relfexes to make use of it's high Dex.

CR 7 or 8 is about right.

Weight is good.


----------



## Shade (Mar 15, 2004)

I implemented your suggestions.  I think this one is done.   Am I missing anything?


----------



## Krishnath (Mar 15, 2004)

No I don't think so. NEXT!


----------



## Shade (Mar 15, 2004)

Here's the last of the bane minions...


Bane Minion, Red
AC:0 HD:12 Mv:30 Int:High Size:L
Align:CE THACO:9 Att:3
Dmg:1d8/1d8/3d6
Spec Att:fire breath, flame touch
Spec Def:See below XP:12000
Like the black minions, these creatures were created by Bane to serve
Gothmenes. They can breathe fire like a red dragon. Each hit by a
red minion will cause an additional 2d6 of fire damage due to the
intense heat generated by their bodies. Like black minions, they can
also see invisible objects and are immune to fear, poison, death
effects, and charm.


*Bane Minion, Red*
Large Outsider (Extraplanar, Evil, Lawful)
Hit Dice: 12d8+60 (114 hp)
Initiative: +8
Speed: 80 ft. (16 squares), fly 80 ft. (average)
AC: 20 (–1 size, +4 Dex, +7 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +12/+23
Attack: Claw +18 melee (1d8+7 plus 2d6 fire)
Full Attack: 2 claws +18 melee (1d8+7 plus 2d6 fire) and bite +13 melee (3d6+3 plus 2d6 fire)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Breath weapon, flame touch, _fumble_, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 10/good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to charms, death effects, electricity, fear, and poison
Saves: Fort +13, Ref +12, Will +12
Abilities: Str 25, Dex 19, Con 20, Int 14, Wis 18, Cha 18
Skills: Bluff +17, Concentration +16, Diplomacy +17, Hide +13, Intimidate +17, Knowledge (the planes) +15, Knowledge (religion) +15, Listen +17, Move Silently +17, Search +17, Sense Motive +17, Spot +17 
Feats: Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Flyby Attack, Improved Initiative, Power Attack
Environment: The Barrens of Doom and Despair (Infernal Battlefields of Acheron)
Organization: Solitary, pair, or squad (3-20)
Challenge Rating: 9
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always lawful evil
Advancement: 13–23 HD (Large); 24–36 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: +6

_This creature stands nearly 13 feet tall, with a vaguely humanoid shape. Its body appears slightly draconic, and it is covered in red scales. It has huge batlike wings and reeks of sulfur._

Bane created three types of servants to serve his lieutenant, Gothmenes. These bane minions come in black, blue, and red varieties.

A red bane minion is 13 feet tall and weighs about 1,200 pounds.

Bane minions speak Infernal, Common and Draconic.

Combat

A red bane minion opens with its breath weapon, then uses its spell-like abilities to great effect.

A bane minon's natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as lawful-aligned and evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

*Breath Weapon (Su):* 60-foot cone of fire, once every 1d4 rounds, damage 10d8 fire, Reflex DC 21 half. The save DC is Constitution-based.

*Flame Touch (Su):* A red bane minion's body gives off intense heat, causing it's melee attacks to deal an additional 2d6 points of fire damage.

*Fumble (Sp):* Once per day, a bane minion can create a 30-foot cube in which all creatures suddenly become clumsy and awkward. This cube lasts for 8 rounds. Creatures in the area must make a DC 18 Will save each round. Success means that the creature is unaffected that round, but a new save must be made again in the next round unless it leaves the area. Affected creatures who take a double move or are charging fall prone. Creatures drop all held items, and cannot pick up objects. Alternatively, the spell can be cast at an individual creature. The creature must make a DC 18 Will save or be affected for the spell's entire duration (12 rounds); success means the creature is _slowed_ (as the spell) for 12 rounds. This is a mind-affecting, enchantment effect. Caster level 12th. The save DC is Charisma-based.

*Spell-Like Abilities:* 1/day—bestow curse (DC 18), cone of cold (DC 19), hold monster (DC 19), ice storm, slow (DC 17). Caster level 12th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

*See Invisibility (Su):* A red bane minion continuously uses this ability, as the spell (caster level 12th).

The red bane minion first appeared in the SSI computer game _Pools of Darkness_, (1991).


----------



## Shade (Mar 15, 2004)

Ability Scores:  Str 25, Dex 19, Con 20, Int 14, Wis 18, Cha 18?

Breath weapon 10d8 fire (continuing the progression of the other bane minons) or 8d10 (as red dragon of comparable size)?  The only difference is on the low end, so it probably doesn't have a huge impace.

Skills:  Continue beefing up the same skills as the other minions?

Fly speed to 80 ft.?

DR 10/good? (This would be comparable to 12-HD devils).

Caster level equals HD, like the other bane minions?


----------



## Krishnath (Mar 16, 2004)

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes.

As for the flame touch ability, use this:

*Flame Touch (Su):* A Red Bane Minion's body gives off intense heat, causing it's melee attacks to deal an additional 2d6 points of fire damage.


----------



## Shade (Mar 16, 2004)

Nice work.  OK, it looks like all that's left is:


Breath weapon:  10d8 or 8d10?
Weight:  1,200 lbs.?
CR 9?
One more feat.   Improved Critical (claw)?


----------



## Krishnath (Mar 18, 2004)

10d8, yes, yes, Flyby Attack.


----------



## Shade (Mar 18, 2004)

Cool.  That wraps up the bane minions.   

The only two creatures left from _Pools of Darkness _are:

Giant Cockatrice
AC:3 HD:10 Mv:24 Int: Animal Size:L
Align: N THAC0/:11 Att:1 Dmg:1d6
Spec Att: Petrification attack XP: 2000
These are rare mutated forms of the cockatrice.  They stand eight feet
tall and are even more fierce than the cockatrice.  Due to their size,
their diet consists of small mammals and large lizards.  They are
incredibly fast and, due to their petrifaction attack, extremely
dangerous.

and

Walking Trees
AC:0 HD:12 Mv:6 Int: Non Size: L
Align: N THAC0/:9 Att:2
Dmg:4d6/4d6
Spec Def: Immunity to confusion XP:7000
The powers of Moander allow its followers to animate some plants.
When the Cult of Moander joined with the wizard Marcus and the
glabrezu Taleton, this power was extended to many of the trees of the
Elven Court.  The trees are unintelligent and mindlessly obey the
orders of the cult.  They strike with two large limbs.

Now, are either of these worth converting?   The normal cockatrice only advances to size Medium, whereas the giant could begin at Large.  

The walking trees are essentially the trees created by the treant's animate trees ability or the liveoak spell.

Any thoughts?


----------



## Krishnath (Mar 20, 2004)

In my humble opinion, none of those are worth porting over, so to speak. 

So which game is next?


----------



## Filby (Mar 21, 2004)

Mm, the giant cockatrice might be worth a quick treatment. But not the trees.


----------



## Shade (Mar 22, 2004)

Here's the quick treatment Filby recommended. I simply advanced a regular cockatrice beyond its normal limits:

*Giant Cockatrice
*Large Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 10d10+30 (85 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares), fly 60 ft. (poor)
Armor Class: 17 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +7 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+18
Attack: Bite +14 melee (1d8+6 plus petrification)
Full Attack: Bite +14 melee (1d8+6 plus petrification)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Petrification
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +8, Will +4
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 13, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 9
Skills: Listen +9, Spot +10
Feats: Ability Focus (petrification), Alertness, Dodge, Weapon Focus (bite)
Environment: Temperate plains
Organization:: Solitary, pair, flight (3–5), or flock (6–13)
Challenge Rating: 6
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 11–15 HD (Large); 16–20 HD (Huge); 21–24 HD (Gargantuan); 25–30 HD (Colossal)
Level Adjustment: -- 

_This avian creature is about eight feet tall. It has the head and body of a cockerel, bat wings, and the long tail of a lizard. Its eyes glow with a dangerous-looking crimson sheen._

These are rare mutated forms of the cockatrice. They stand eight feet tall and are even more fierce than the cockatrice. Due to their size, their diet consists of small mammals and large lizards. They are incredibly fast and, due to their petrifaction attack, extremely dangerous.

A male cockatrice has wattles and a comb, just like a rooster. Females, much rarer than males, differ only in that they have no wattles or comb. 

A giant cockatrice weighs about 300 pounds.

Combat

Like its lesser cousin, a giant cockatrice fiercely attacks anything that it deems a threat to itself or its lair.

*Petrification (Su):* Creatures hit by a giant cockatrice’s bite attack must succeed on a DC 20 Fortitude save or instantly turn to stone. The save DC is Constitution-based. 

Cockatrices (both the giant and lesser variety) have immunity to the petrification ability of other cockatrices, but other petrification attacks affect them normally.

The giant cockatrice first appeared in the SSI computer game _Pools of Darkness_, (1991).


----------



## Shade (Mar 22, 2004)

Any requests?   We don't have to continue with the same games until they are finished.   Most of what is left are from the Black Isle/Interplay games, so they'll be a bit more based on in-game experiences, since these games didn't include the stat blocks.   Alot of the stat blocks have been extrapolated by many of the walkthru sites, however.  It just takes some Googling to find 'em.  

Here are some choices:
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=73170


----------



## Krishnath (Mar 22, 2004)

I would honestly like to see the Demon Beliphet, but we should probably wait before doing him... so... How about some Baldurs Gate creatures?


----------



## Shade (Mar 22, 2004)

Sounds good.  Any in particular?


----------



## Filby (Mar 22, 2004)

Hm, perhaps some of those beholder-kin? The names sound pretty interesting.


----------



## Krishnath (Mar 23, 2004)

Fine by me.


----------



## Shade (Mar 23, 2004)

Beholderkin it is, then.   Here's what we've got.   I've list all of the beholders as they appear in BG2 on the following table.   This way we can guage the relative power levels of the new ones with the beholder and gauth.  I also included some others that have already been converted for the same reasons:

*Monster             Hit Points   Experience Points
*Eagle eye                40           6,000
Seekers                  40           6,000
Sentinel                  40           6,000
Vigilant                   60           7,500
Gauth                     81           9,000
Gorgon eye            100          12,000
Eye of the dead      109          12,000
Beholder                 95           14,000
Death tyrant           115          14,000
Elder orb                130          14,000
Eye of the beholder  100          15,000
Hive mother            180          50,000

Here's the 3E/3.5 Stats for those on the table above:

*Monster          Hit Points              CR*
Gauth            6d8+18 (45 hp)         6
Death tyrant     11d12 (71 hp)       13
Beholder       11d8+44 (93 hp)       13 
Elder Orb      17d8+102 (178 hp)    19
Hive Mother   20d8+120 (204 hp)   18

It looks like the standard beholder in BG2 was pretty much on par with the 3.5 beholder.  The gauth was considerably more powerful.   Therefore, I suggest we use the beholder as our benchmark for estimating the power of the variants.


----------



## Shade (Mar 23, 2004)

And here are the special abilities of the variants:

Eye of the beholder:  Charm person, anti-magic ray, cause serious wounds, fear, death ray, slow, domination

Eye of the dead:  "Undead attack"

Gorgon eye:  flesh to stone central eye, no eye rays

Eagle eye:  "Archer that fires multiple arrows"

Seekers:  Aganazzar's scorcher, flame arrow, Melf's acid arrows, magic missile

Sentinel: None

Vigilant: None

I haven't played BG2 in ages, so I'm going by what I found in some walkthrus.  Do any of you guys remember these critters better?   The eagle eye and eye of the dead have particularly cryptic abilities.

Seekers, gorgon eye, and eye of the dead should be pretty straightforward.


----------



## Shade (Mar 26, 2004)

I reinstalled BG2 and Throne of Bhaal, and found some cheat codes that let you create a monster, then make it a part of your party so you can view the statistics.   Unfortunately, I can't locate the creature codes for any of these beholderkin.   

I'm going to check out some of the BG message boards and see if I can learn the codes.  

Does anyone who played this game remember actually encountering any of these variant beholderkin?   I used another cheat code to send my party to the beholder city, where I'm guessing these guys should appear, and haven't had any luck finding them.   I've only encountered beholders, gauths, and elder orbs.

The only reason I know these guys exist is from Desslock's walkthrough on Gamespot.


----------



## Krishnath (Mar 26, 2004)

Let's start with the HD shall we?

Eagle Eye: 9d8
Seeker: 9d8
Sentinel: 9d8
Vigilant: 14d8
Gorgon Eye: 22d8
Eye of the Dead: 24d8
Eye of the Beholder: 22d8

This is by dividing their 2nd edition hp by 4,5. Compairing them to the common Beholder who with that formular would have 22HD, we can see that the results are way to high, so to bring them in line with the common beholder (who has 11 HD in the Monster Manual), we need to halve their HD, let's round the halves up, which gives us:

Eagle Eye: 5d8
Seeker: 5d8
Sentinel: 5d8
Vigilant: 7d8
Gorgon Eye: 11d8
Eye of the Dead: 12d8
Eye of the Beholder: 11d8

Sound good?


----------



## Shade (Mar 29, 2004)

Sounds great!  Good work.

I have some good news.  I was able to use the cheat codes to locate all these critters in the game, then capture them into my party so I could view their stats.   

Oddly enough, these creatures were actually just called "eyeballs" in the game.  They were created by a mad wizard (isn't everything?) from beholder stock.  I'd suggest that we jazz some of them up from being a plain-ol' floating eyeball to be more like true beholderkin.

I'll get one started here shortly...


----------



## Shade (Mar 29, 2004)

Let's start with the seeker. Here's what we know about it from the game:

Str 10, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 10
AC 2
40 HP
No resistances

Eye rays: Aganazzar's scorcher, flame arrow, Melf's acid arrow, magic missile.

We'll use Krishnath's suggested HD (5d8).

Here's the stat block:

*Beholderkin, Seeker*
Small Aberration
Hit Dice: 5d8+10 (33 hp)
Initiative: +6
Speed: 5 ft. (1 square), fly 20 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 18 (+1 size, +2 Dex, +5 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/-3
Attack: Eye rays +6 ranged touch and bite -3 melee (1d4-2)
Full Attack: Eye rays +6 ranged touch and bite -3 melee (1d4-2)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Eye rays
Special Qualities: All-around vision, darkvision 60 ft., flight
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +7
Abilities: Str 6, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 11
Skills: Hide +14, Knowledge (arcana) +9, Listen +3, Search +9, Spot +11, Survival +1 (+3 following tracks)
Feats: Alertness (B), Improved Initiative, Iron Will
Environment: Cold hills and underground
Organization: Solitary, pair, or cluster (3-6)
Challenge Rating: 4
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually lawful evil
Advancement: 6-10 HD (Medium); 11-15 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: -- 

_The creature is small and spherical, and seems to float effortlessly in the air. It has a bulbous body with a central, unblinking eye, and a large maw filled with needlelike teeth. Four smaller eyes, attached to wriggling stalks, sprout from the top of the orblike body._

Seekers are mutant beholderkin created by Lycanth the Enlightented, a powerful wizard in the service of the dragon Abazigal. Because seekers are created via experimentation on standard beholderkin, true beholders and their kin will attack them on sight.

A seeker is a 3-foot wide orb dominated by a central eye. Four smaller eyes on stalks sprout from the top of its body. Unlike many beholderkin, its central eye serves no special function.

Seekers speak the language of Beholders and Common.

Combat

The primary weapon of the seeker is a series of deadly eye rays.

*Eye Rays (Su):* Each of a seeker's four eye rays resembles a spell cast by a 7th-level caster. Each eye ray has a range of 100 feet and a save DC of 12. The save DCs are Charisma-based. The four eye rays inclue: 

_Magic Missle_: This works like the spell, firing four missles, each causing 1d4+1 points of damage (no save).

_Melf's Acid Arrow_: This works like the spell, causing 2d4 acid damage for two rounds (no save).

_Scorching Ray_: This works like the spell, causing 4d6 points of fire damage (no save). The seeker may fire two scorching rays per round.

_Searing Light_: This works like the spell, dealing 3d8 points of damage to living creatures, 7d6 vs. undead, 7d8 vs. light-sensitive undead, and 3d6 vs. constructs and inanimate objects (no save).

*All-Around Vision (Ex):* Seekers are exceptionally alert and circumspect. Their many eyes give them a +4 racial bonus on Spot and Search checks, and they can't be flanked.

*Flight (Ex):* A seeker's body is naturally buoyant. This buoyancy allows it to fly at a speed of 20 feet. This buoyancy also grants it a permanent feather fall effect (as the spell) with personal range.

The seeker first appeared in the Black Isle computer game _Baldurs Gate II: Throne of Bhaal_, (2001).


----------



## Shade (Mar 29, 2004)

Some things to consider:

Ability scores from BG2:  Str 10, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 10
Gauth's ability scores:  Str 8, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 15, Wis 15, Cha 13
Beholder's ability scores:  Str 10, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 17, Wis 15, Cha 15

Since these guys are one size category smaller than a gauth, I'm thinking Str and Con should be lower than the gauth.  The Dex for both gauths and beholders are 14, do we want to stick with this score, or boost it for their smaller size?  Mental stats from the game seem fine, except I'd raise Cha to 11.

Do we want to give them a bite attack?  They didn't use it in the game, but other beholders have one.

Should we stick with Ag's scorcher, or replace it with something OGL?  We could just say "a line of fire" and achieve a similar effect.


----------



## Krishnath (Mar 29, 2004)

Abilities: Str 6 , Dex 14, Con 14? Cha 11 sounds good.

As for the spells, replace the Flame Arrow with Searing Light and Aganazzar's Scorcher with Scorching Ray. 

I say we give them a bite attack, as they are in essence smaller beholders with fewer eyes.


----------



## Shade (Mar 29, 2004)

Sounds good.  I'll update momentarily.


----------



## Shade (Mar 29, 2004)

I've updated the stat block. Some more questions:

Shall we make its caster level for eye rays equal to HD+2 like the gauth and beholder? This seems to be a good pattern.

Do we want to give it Alertness as a bonus feat like the gauth and beholder?

For the magic missle eye "ray":   Do we want to make it as magic missle, except it is a ray and does not strike unerringly, or keep it just as-is and mention that it is not truly a ray, but simply originates from an eyestalk?

For scorching ray, do we allow it to fire two rays in the same round, since the spell allows firing a second ray at 7th level (assuming we go with CL 7th)?

Same goes for magic missle?  Do we allow only one missle or multiples based on caster level?


----------



## Krishnath (Mar 30, 2004)

Yes, yes, not ray, yes, multiples.


----------



## Shade (Mar 30, 2004)

Cool.  Updated again.   Here's what's left to consider:

Eye ray range:   Beholders have 130 foot range (which is their CL x 10), while gauths have 100 foot range (more than their CL 8 x 10).   Should we give them 70 foot range (CL x 10), or make their rays 100 foot like the gauths, and assume that for future beholders the formula is CL x 10, minimum 100 feet?

Beholder Feats:  Flyby Attack, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Iron Will
Gauth Feats:  Flyby Attack, Improved Initiative, Iron Will

Using this "progression", we should probably give the seeker two of the following:  Flyby Attack, Improved Initiative, Iron Will.  Any preferences?

Gauth Skills:  Hide +11, Knowledge (arcana) +11, Listen +4, Search +15, Spot +17, Survival +2 (+4 following tracks)

Beholder Skills:  Hide +12, Knowledge (arcana) +17, Listen +18, Search +21, Spot +22, Survival +2 (+4 following tracks)

Following this method, we should definitely put skill ranks in Hide, Knowledge (arcana), Search, and Spot.  It looks like Survival is only listed because of the synergy bonus from Search.   The gauth has no ranks in Listen, only racial bonus.

So I'd recommend:  Hide 8, Knowledge (arcana) 8, Listen 0, Search 4, Spot 4, Survival 0.   That would give us modified scores of Hide +14, Knowledge (arcana) +9, Listen +3, Search +9, Spot +11, Survival +1 (+3 following tracks).  Does that work?

Odd (at least to me)...both the beholder and gauth have an environment listed as "Cold Hills".   Since they have traditionally lived underground, I'd recommend we change that to "underground", or at least to "Cold hills and underground."

And we'll need a CR.


----------



## Krishnath (Mar 30, 2004)

100' sounds good.

Feats: Improved Initiative, Iron Will.

Skills: sounds good.

Environment: Cold Hills and Underground sounds about right.


----------



## Shade (Mar 30, 2004)

I think all that's left is a CR.  How about CR 5?  They seem only slightly weaker than a gauth, which is CR 6.


----------



## Krishnath (Mar 31, 2004)

I think a Cr of 4 is about right for the Seeker.


----------



## Shade (Mar 31, 2004)

Cool.  Then this one is finished.   BTW, I've been posting the finished creatures in this thread in Homebrews:

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1455430#post1455430


----------



## Shade (Mar 31, 2004)

Let's do the vigilant next.   This one is odd, because it is essentially only a floating eyeball.   It had no attacks, but could cast haste on itself (mainly to get the boost of speed that 2E haste allowed) and would fly toward the party, but did no harm.

I'm thinking that we should make them the extracted eyeball of a beholder, and have them serve as scouts for those that use them.   The main question that comes to mind:   should we leave them as aberrations, or make them constructs or even undead?

Also, I think we should give them both haste and expeditious retreat, so they are closer to the 2E version of the spell. 

Perhaps we could also give them either telepathy or an empathic link with their master and/or their allies.  We could also give them sending or something similar to relay information as a spell-like ability.

Thoughts?


----------



## Krishnath (Mar 31, 2004)

First their type: That is a though question, how do we want to make more of them? Undead is probably the best answer. Btw, did it have any attack forms?

Anyways, lets assume that they are undead, thus giving them a d12 HD.

Haste and Expedious Retreat sounds good.

Also, I would go with empathic link rather than telepathy.


----------



## Shade (Mar 31, 2004)

No, they had no attack forms.   I'm not even sure what sort of attack form we could give them (slam, perhaps?).

I like the idea of undead.  Perhaps we could add some flavor text that beholder mages often use their extracted eyeballs to create vigilants to spy for them.

Empathic link it is, then.


----------



## Filby (Mar 31, 2004)

I like those ideas.

Personally I would like Aberration, largely because I fancy the idea of a huge beholder city with lots of disgusting ocular alien-like lifeforms cruising all over the place... it has a certain Lovecraftian charm. But Undead isn't bad. Besides, tweaking stats for personal use isn't that hard. Undead it is.


----------



## Shade (Mar 31, 2004)

*Vigilant
*Tiny Undead
Hit Dice: 7d12 (45 hp)
Initiative: +7
Speed: 5 ft. (1 square), fly 20 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 22 (+2 size, +3 Dex, +7 natural), touch 15, flat-footed 19
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/-9
Attack: Slam +1 melee (1d2-4)
Full Attack: Slam +1 melee (1d2-4)
Space/Reach: 2 1/2 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., empathic link, flight, spell-like abilities, swift flight
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +7, Will +6
Abilities: Str 3, Dex 17, Con -, Int 7, Wis 12, Cha 11
Skills: Search +8, Listen +3, Spot +13
Feats: Alertness (B), Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Run
Environment: Cold hills and underground
Organization: Solitary, pair, or cluster (3-6)
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually lawful evil
Advancement: 8-14 HD (Tiny); 15-21 HD (Small)
Level Adjustment: -- 

_A large eyeball floats before you._

A vigilant is created by extracting the eye of a beholder and granting it unlife. They are used primarily as spies by beholder mages, necromancers, and evil clerics.

While they sometimes arise spontaneously, vigilants can be created by a caster of at least 12th level using the _create undead _spell.

Vigilants cannot speak.

Combat

Vigilants rarely attack, but when pressed, they can slam into opponents.

*Empathic Link (Su):* The vigilant has an empathic link with its creator out to a distance of up to 1 mile. The creator cannot see through the vigilant's eye, but they can communicate empathically. Because of the limited nature of the link, only general emotional content can be communicated.

Because of this empathic link, the creator has the same connection to an item or place that the vigilant does.

*Flight (Ex):* A vigilant's body is naturally buoyant. This buoyancy allows it to fly at a speed of 20 feet. This buoyancy also grants it a permanent feather fall effect (as the spell) with personal range.

*Spell-Like Abilities:* At will—_haste_ (self only). Caster level 5th. 

*Swift Flight (Sp):* Once per hour, a vigilant may increase its fly speed by 30 feet. This functions exactly like the _expeditious retreat_ spell, except it applies to its fly speed instead of its land speed. Caster level 5th.

The vigilant first appeared in the Black Isle computer game _Baldurs Gate II: Throne of Bhaal_, (2001).


----------



## Shade (Mar 31, 2004)

The above stat block should get us started.   Should it have all-around vision like most beholders?   I'm thinking it should not, since it is a single eyeball.

In the game, its ability scores were Str 9, Dex 9, Con 9, Int 9, Wis 9, Cha 9.   I think we should change them.  Con is obviously gone, Str should be lower, Dex probably higher.  Any suggestions?


----------



## Krishnath (Apr 5, 2004)

Reduce Str to 3, increase Dex to 17, remove Con, Drop Int to 3, Increase Wis to 12, Drop cha to 1.


----------



## Shade (Apr 5, 2004)

Updated with the Krishnath suggested.  However, I think the mental stats may be too low now.  These critters seemed remotely intelligent in the game, and they do have a few minor spell-like abilities.   How about raising it up to Int 7 and Cha 11, keeping Wis at 12?

Also, should we ditch all-around vision?


----------



## Krishnath (Apr 6, 2004)

That sounds reasonable.


----------



## Shade (Apr 6, 2004)

Cool.  I adjusted the stats to reflect the changes.

Some more thoughts...

Do we want to give it a slam attack, or just leave it without attacks altogether?  A slam is about the only thing I could see it doing, since it is nothing more than an eyeball.  :\ 

Expeditious retreat won't work, since it only increase the land speed.  These things don't roll away, they increase their fly speed.  So I though we could just give them the fly spell to use X times per day, which would triple their fly speed.

For feats, I'm thinking Alertness as a bonus feat like the other beholderkin, and possibly Great Fortitude, Iron Will and Improved Initiative.  Other ideas?

Skills:  Max out Search and Spot with 10 ranks each?


----------



## Krishnath (Apr 6, 2004)

Seems kinda odd to give _fly_ to a creature that allready flies... Why not simply give it an ability that allows it to tripple it's movement rate for a limited time X number of times per day? Calling it something like _speed flight_ or something similar?

A slam attack sounds good.

For feats, I suggest Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, and Run, keeping the Alertness feat as a bonus feat as you suggested. These creatures are primarily scouts so stuff that improve their reflexes and speed is good.

Skills: Sounds good.


----------



## Shade (Apr 6, 2004)

Updated skill, feats, and spell-likes as we discussed.  I gave it Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat, otherwise it would never hit.   I also added some flavor text to go along with it.   Let me know what you think.

We still need caster levels for abilities, caster level to create, and CR.


----------



## Krishnath (Apr 7, 2004)

Hmm.... I guess the caster level should be 5th... Sounds about right... Hmm.... you know, it really doesn't need Weapon Finesse, as it's BAB is +3, it's strength modifier is -4, and it gains a +2 size bonus....

And if we drop the run feat for weapon focus it's total attack bonus would be +2, which sounds a lot more reasonable than +5 (which is wrong BTW, it should be +4).

It CR should be 2, but only because of it's incredibly high AC.

Don't know about the creation part, but the creator should definetly be beholder-kin.


----------



## Shade (Apr 7, 2004)

Krishnath said:
			
		

> Hmm.... I guess the caster level should be 5th... Sounds about right... Hmm.... you know, it really doesn't need Weapon Finesse, as it's BAB is +3, it's strength modifier is -4, and it gains a +2 size bonus....
> 
> And if we drop the run feat for weapon focus it's total attack bonus would be +2, which sounds a lot more reasonable than +5 (which is wrong BTW, it should be +4).



My math sure was fuzzy.     I decided to keep it with Run, since it will only attack in emergencies.  So that should give it an attack bonus of +1, right?  (+3 BAB, +2 size, -4 Str).



			
				Krishnath said:
			
		

> It CR should be 2, but only because of it's incredibly high AC.



This is a really tough critter to apply CR.   It does have 7 HD and great AC, but can't really hurt anyone much.   CR 2 will probably work.



			
				Krishnath said:
			
		

> Don't know about the creation part, but the creator should definetly be beholder-kin.



I liked the idea of necromancers stealing the eyes from beholders, invoking their wrath, so I decided to allow anyone who could cast _create undead_ the ability to create 'em.   Looking at that spell, caster level 12 seems to be the cutoff for anything better than a ghoul.   Since these critters have more HD and empathic link, I'd say they are more valuable than a ghoul.

Look it over and see if everything looks OK, and if so, we'll move on to the next one.


----------



## Krishnath (Apr 7, 2004)

Yes, CR 2 is good , sounds good, and NEXT!


----------



## Shade (Apr 7, 2004)

Alright! Next up is my favorite, the gorgon eye. Here's what we know about it from the game:

Str 10, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 10
AC -3
97 HP
No resistances

No eye rays, but has a petrification gaze.

We'll once again use Krishnath's suggested HD (11d8).
Here's the stat block:

*Beholderkin, Gorgon Eye*
Large Aberration
Hit Dice: 11d8+55 (104 hp)
Initiative: +6
Speed: 5 ft. (1 square), fly 20 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 23 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +11 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 21
Base Attack/Grapple: +8/+15
Attack: Bite +10 melee (2d4+3)
Full Attack: Bite +10 melee (2d4+3) and snakes +5 melee (2d6+1 plus poison)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Petrifying gaze, poison
Special Qualities: All-around vision, darkvision 60 ft., flight
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +5, Will +11
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 15, Con 20, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 15
Skills: Hide +10, Knowledge (arcana) +6, Listen +11, Search +15, Spot +18, Survival +2 (+4 following tracks)
Feats: Alertness (B), Flyby Attack, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Iron Will
Environment: Cold hills and underground
Organization: Solitary, pair, or cluster (3-6)
Challenge Rating: 12
Treasure: Double standard
Alignment: Usually lawful evil
Advancement: 12-16 HD (Large); 17-33 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: -- 

_The creature is nothing more than an orblike, bulbous body with green chitinous scales, and a large maw filled with viperlike fangs. Writhing, hissing snakes sprout from the top of the orblike body, and its central, unblinking eye is yellow and reptillian._

Gorgon eyes are mutant beholderkin created by Lycanth the Enlightented, a powerful wizard in the service of the dragon Abazigal. It is rumored that the essence of medusae were mingled with that of a beholder to create this monstrosity. Because gorgon eyes are created via experimentation on standard beholderkin, true beholders and their kin will attack them on sight.

A gorgon eye is an 8-foot-wide orb dominated by a central eye and a large, toothy maw. 

Gorgon eyes speak the language of Beholders and Common.

Combat

The gorgon eye uses its petrification gaze to deadly effect, and attempts to poison those who resist.

*Petrifying Gaze (Su):* Turn to stone permanently, 60 feet, Fortitude DC 17 negates. The save DC is Charisma-based. Once each round, during its turn, the gorgon eye decides whether its petrifying gaze is active or not (it deactivates the gaze by shutting its central eye).

*Poison (Ex):* Injury, Fortitude DC 20, initial damage 1d6 Dex, secondary damage turn to stone permanently. The save DC is Constitution-based.

*All-Around Vision (Ex):* Gorgon eyes are exceptionally alert and circumspect. The many eyes of their snakes give them a +4 racial bonus on Spot and Search checks, and they can't be flanked.

*Flight (Ex):* A gorgon eye's body is naturally buoyant. This buoyancy allows it to fly at a speed of 20 feet. This buoyancy also grants it a permanent feather fall effect (as the spell) with personal range.

The gorgon eye first appeared in the Black Isle computer game _Baldurs Gate II: Throne of Bhaal_, (2001).


----------



## Shade (Apr 7, 2004)

Once again, in the game they simply appeared as eyeballs.   I was thinking it would be cool to make them into regular beholders, but instead of eyestalks, give them snakes like a medusa.   That would give them something else to do besides just a single bite attack and gaze.   Does this sound reasonable?


----------



## Filby (Apr 8, 2004)

Cool, sounds good to me.


----------



## Krishnath (Apr 8, 2004)

I agree....

Abilities: Str 18, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 15?


----------



## Shade (Apr 8, 2004)

I modified the physical ability scores a bit. Since they had more hit points than a standard beholder in the game, and since their poison will rely on Con for the DC, I raised Con. I also raised Dex since it seems to go along with the serpentine aspects, and lowered Str to even this out. Does this seem reasonable?

For feats, do we want to go with the beholder standards of Flyby Attack, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, and Iron Will?

Do we want to stick with the medusa's poison damage of 1d6 Str/2d6 Str, or do something different?  If so, any suggestions?

I thought to go along with the usual theme of eye rays, we could have the snakes spit venom. Whaddya think?


----------



## Krishnath (Apr 8, 2004)

Abilities: Yes.
Feats: Yes.
Poison: Initial 1d6 Dex, secondary: Turn to stone permanently...
Spit Venom: Nah, not really needed.


----------



## Shade (Apr 8, 2004)

Updated.   

For the gaze range, do we want to go with the standard of 30 feet, or something else (perhaps like the 150-foot range of the beholder's antimagic eye)?

Following this method we used earlier for beholderkin skills, I'd recommend: Hide 12, Knowledge (arcana) 5, Listen 7, Search 10, Spot 10, Survival 0.

That would give us modified scores of Hide +10, Knowledge (arcana) +6, Listen +11, Search +15, Spot +18, Survival +2 (+4 following tracks). Does that work?

Double standard treasure like a beholder?

CR 12?  (It's not quite as versatile as the standard beholder at CR 13).


----------



## Krishnath (Apr 9, 2004)

I think 60' would be better, sounds good, yes, and yes.


----------



## Shade (Apr 12, 2004)

It looks like another one is finished.   I'll get the next one going shortly.


----------



## Shade (Apr 12, 2004)

Next up is the sentinel. Here's what we know about it from the game:

Str 10, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 10
AC 2
40 HP
No resistances

No eye rays, but has monster summon I, II, and III, and animal summon I, II, and III.

As usual, we'll use Krishnath's suggested HD (5d8).

Here's the stat block:

*Beholderkin, Sentinel
*Small Aberration
Hit Dice: 5d8+15 (37 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 5 ft. (1 square), fly 20 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 18 (+1 size, +2 Dex, +5 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/-3
Attack: Bite +2 melee (2d4-2)
Full Attack: Bite +2 melee (2d4-2)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: _Summon creature_
Special Qualities: All-around vision, darkvision 60 ft., flight
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +7
Abilities: Str 6, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 17, Wis 17, Cha 15
Skills: Concentration +11, Hide +14, Knowledge (arcana) +11, Listen +5, Search +15, Spot +17, Survival +3 (+5 following tracks)
Feats: Alertness (B), Augment Summoning, Spell Focus (Conjuration)
Environment: Cold hills and underground
Organization: Solitary, pair, or cluster (3-6)
Challenge Rating: 5
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually lawful evil
Advancement: 6-10 HD (Medium); 11-15 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: -- 

_A 3-foot wide orb floats in midair. It bears a large central, and numerous smaller eyes dot its body. The smaller eyes vary in apperance, some seem like cats' eyes, others like those of reptiles, some like those of fish, and some of more alien origin_.

Sentinels are mutant beholderkin created by Lycanth the Enlightented, a powerful wizard in the service of the dragon Abazigal. Because sentinels are created via experimentation on standard beholderkin, true beholders and their kin will attack them on sight.

A sentinel is a 3-foot wide orb dominated by a central eye. Numerous smaller eyes cover its body, each appearing to have come from a different species of creature. Unlike many beholderkin, its central eye serves no special function.

Sentinels speak the language of Beholders, Common, Abyssal and Infernal.

Combat

Sentinels generally prefer to summon creatures to do their fighting for them, staying back and playing the role of commander and tactician. They use their bite attacks only as a last resort.

*Summon Creature (Sp):* Once per round, a sentinel can summon any creature on the _summon monster _III or_ summon nature's ally III_ lists with automatic success. Alternatively, the sentinel may summon 1d3 2nd-level creatures of the same kind, or 1d4+1 1st-level creatures of the same kind. Summoned creatures may appear anywhere within 60 feet of the sentinel. This ability is the equivalent of a 3rd-level spell.

*All-Around Vision (Ex): *Sentinels are exceptionally alert and circumspect. Their many eyes give them a +4 racial bonus on Spot and Search checks, and they can't be flanked.

*Flight (Ex):* A sentinel's body is naturally buoyant. This buoyancy allows it to fly at a speed of 20 feet. This buoyancy also grants it a permanent feather fall effect (as the spell) with personal range.

The sentinel first appeared in the Black Isle computer game _Baldurs Gate II: Throne of Bhaal_, (2001).


----------



## Shade (Apr 12, 2004)

Questions:

Do we want to make them similar in form to normal beholderkin (central eye, stalks) or just a floating eyeball like they were in the game?

Obviously, we'll give them summon monster I-III and summon nature's ally I-III.  However, do we want these to be spell-like abilities or eye rays of some sort.

Should they have all-around vision?

Since these guys are completely summoning-reliant, I'm thinking it should have Augment Summoning as one of feats.  Should it replace Improved Initiative or Iron Will?   Also, it needs higher Cha than it had in the game.  At least 13 (what it normally takes to cast summon monster/ally III).  Any suggestions?


----------



## Krishnath (Apr 15, 2004)

I don't think the summoning spells would work as rays, I suggest simply to make the summoned creatures appear within 60' of the beholder-kin. As for how they should look, I suggest we go with the standard beholder look. Central body, one eye, a number of eyestalks. Perhaps giving it some slight variation, dropping the stalks for eyes placed randomly on it's body perhaps?
All around vision is almost a must for beholder-kin.
As for Augment Summoning, one of the prereqs for the feat is Spell-focus: Conjuration, so dropping both Improved Initiative and Iron will is a must to acomodate the two other feats.


----------



## Shade (Apr 15, 2004)

Krishnath said:
			
		

> I don't think the summoning spells would work as rays, I suggest simply to make the summoned creatures appear within 60' of the beholder-kin.



OK, I'll try to work something up.



			
				Krishnath said:
			
		

> As for how they should look, I suggest we go with the standard beholder look. Central body, one eye, a number of eyestalks. Perhaps giving it some slight variation, dropping the stalks for eyes placed randomly on it's body perhaps?



Oooh, I like that idea!      How about the eyes all be of different creatures, to represent the variety of creatures it can summon?



			
				Krishnath said:
			
		

> All around vision is almost a must for beholder-kin.



I'll add it.



			
				Krishnath said:
			
		

> As for Augment Summoning, one of the prereqs for the feat is Spell-focus: Conjuration, so dropping both Improved Initiative and Iron will is a must to acomodate the two other feats.



Good catch!  That takes care of the feats.

For ability scores, how about:  Str 6, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 17, Wis 17, Cha 15?  (This is based off the gauth, sized down to Small).


----------



## Krishnath (Apr 18, 2004)

Eyes: Sounds good to me.
Ability Scores: perfect.


----------



## Shade (Apr 19, 2004)

How's the summon ability look now?


----------



## Krishnath (Apr 22, 2004)

Looking good.


----------



## Shade (Apr 22, 2004)

OK, just a few things left.

Should we give 'em a bite attack?   I think we should, even though they didn't have one in Baldur's Gate.

Suggested skill ranks:  Concentration 8, Hide 8, Knowledge (arcana) 8, Search 8, Spot 8

CR 5?

Should we give them a few more languages to help them communicate with summoned creatures?   I was thinking Abyssal and Infernal would be most useful.


----------



## Krishnath (Apr 25, 2004)

ofcourse, sounds good, perfect, I agree.

Are we finished? If so: NEXT


----------



## Shade (Apr 26, 2004)

Alright, I think she's done. Up next, the Eye of the Dead.

Following Krishnath's suggestion, this one will have 12 HD. Its game statistics are as follows:

Str 10, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 10
AC -5
92 HP
Special Abilities: regeneration, animate dead, vampiric touch, finger of death


*Beholderkin, Eye of the Dead*
Large Aberration
Hit Dice: 12d8+48 (102 hp)
Initiative: +6
Speed: 5 ft. (1 square), fly 20 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 25 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +14 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 23
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+13
Attack: Eye rays +10 ranged touch and bite +3 melee (2d4)
Full Attack: Eye rays +10 ranged touch and bite +3 melee (2d4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Eye rays
Special Qualities: All-around vision, darkvision 60 ft., flight, regeneration 5
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +8, Will +13
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 19, Wis 17, Cha 17
Skills: Hide +13, Knowledge (arcana) +19, Knowledge (religion) +19, Listen +18, Search +23, Spot +22, Survival +3 (+5 following tracks)
Feats: Alertness (B), Flyby Attack, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes
Environment: Cold hills and underground
Organization: Solitary, pair, or dread cluster (1-2 eyes of the dead and 3-12 skeletons or zombies)
Challenge Rating: 13
Treasure: Double standard
Alignment: Usually lawful evil
Advancement: 13-16 HD (Large); 17-36 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: -- 

_A jet-black bulbous orb floats ominously in midair, starting with its central, unblinking eye. Six smaller eyes, attached to wriggling stalks, sprout from the top of its body, and a vicious maw lined with daggerlike teeth cracks a wicked smile._

Eyes of the dead are mutant beholderkin created by Lycanth the Enlightented, a powerful wizard in the service of the dragon Abazigal. Because sentinels are created via experimentation on standard beholderkin, true beholders and their kin will attack them on sight.

An eye of the dead is a jet-black 8-foot-wide orb dominated by a central eye and a large, toothy maw. Six smaller eyes on stalks sprout from the top of the orb.

Eyes of the dead speak the language of Beholders and Common.

Combat

An eye of the dead tries to down as many foes as possible with its _finger of death_ ray, in order to create fresh victims for its ever growing army of the undead.

*Eye Rays (Su):* Each of an eye of the dead's 6 eye rays resembles a spell cast by a 14th-level caster. Each eye ray has a range of 140 feet and a save DC of 19. The save DCs are Charisma-based. The 6 eye rays inclue: 

_Eyebite:_ The target must succeed on a Fortitude save or be affected as though by the spell.

_Finger of Death:_ The target must succeed on a Fortitude save or be slain as though by the spell. The target takes 3d6+14 points of damage if its saving throw succeeds. Eyes of the dead use this ray to create corpses for their animation cone. 

_Ghoul Touch_: The target must succeed on a Fortitude save or be paralyzed as though by the spell. Additionally, the paralyzed subject exudes a carrion stench that causes all living creatures (except the eye of the dead) in a 10-foot-radius spread to become sickened (Fortitude negates). A neutralize poison spell removes the effect from a sickened creature, and creatures immune to poison are unaffected by the stench. Eyes of the dead use this ray to take spellcasters out of the fight. 

_Ray of Enbeeblement:_ The target takes a penalty to Strength equal to 1d6+1 per two caster levels (maximum 1d6+5). The subject’s Strength score cannot drop below 1. Eyes of the dead use this ray to neutralize melee combants. 

_Ray of Exhaustion:_ The target is immediately fatigued and must succeed on a Fortitude save or be exhausted as though by the spell. Eyes of the dead use this ray to slow adversaries and diminish ranged attackers. 

_Vampric Touch_: This works like the spell, causing 7d6 points of damage, and granting temporary hit points equal to the damage dealt to the eye of the dead.

*Animation Cone (Su):* An eye of the dead's central eye continually produces a 150-foot cone of animation. This functions just like _animate dead_ (caster level 14th). All bones and corpses of dead creatures in the area arise as undead skeletons or zombies that follow the eye of the dead's spoken commands. Once each round, during its turn, the eye of the dead decides whether the animation cone is active or not (the eye of the dead deactivates the cone by shutting its central eye).

*All-Around Vision (Ex):* Eyes of the dead are exceptionally alert and circumspect. Their many eyes give them a +4 racial bonus on Spot and Search checks, and they can't be flanked.

*Flight (Ex):* An eye of the dead's body is naturally buoyant. This buoyancy allows it to fly at a speed of 20 feet. This buoyancy also grants it a permanent feather fall effect (as the spell) with personal range.

*Regeneration (Ex):* An eye of the dead takes normal damage from fire, good-aligned weapons, and from spells or effects with the good descriptor.

The eye of the dead first appeared in the Black Isle computer game _Baldurs Gate II: Throne of Bhaal_, (2001).


----------



## Shade (Apr 26, 2004)

OK, to get things started:

These ability scores seem too low:  Str 10, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 10.  A standard beholder has Str 10, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 17, Wis 15, Cha 15.  Since these guys are slightly tougher, I'd recommend starting with those stats and inflating a few.  Since they are still the same size, perhaps increase the mental stats by 2 each?

Regeneration or fast healling?   What amount?

They only have three eye rays:  animate dead, vampiric touch, and finger of death.   We have several choices.  We could give them two eyestalks, and have the central eye do one of these effects; or we could give them three eyestalks and have the central eye do nothing; or we could give them the standard alotment of stalks and give them additional necromancy-related powers.   Thoughts?


----------



## Filby (Apr 26, 2004)

Personally I think that it should have two eyestalks for _vampiric touch_ and _touch of death_, with the big eye using _animate dead_.


----------



## Shade (Apr 26, 2004)

That's kinda the way I was leaning as well.


----------



## Krishnath (Apr 29, 2004)

Use the beholder stats, but increase the mental stats by 2 sounds like a good plan.

Regeneration: 5 (Holy and fire deals normal damage?)

I say go for additional powers, _Wave of Exhaustion_ and _ghoul touch_ are just to good to pass up.


----------



## Shade (Apr 29, 2004)

OK, check out what we've got so far.   I am now leaning towards the extra eye rays, as just having vampiric touch and finger of death puts it at a severe disadvantage to a standard beholder.   Since in the game it could always create skeletons and zombies without needing a corpse, it was a bit more powerful.  I'm thinking we should go with Krishnath's suggestions of ray (wave) of exhaustion and ghoul touch, as well as eyebite and ray of enfeeblement.  That would give it a total of six eye rays, which I think would put in closer on par with the beholder.

Thoughts?


----------



## Shade (May 10, 2004)

OK, in the interest of moving this fella along, I added the additional eye rays.  Take a look and tell me what you think.

Some other things to consider:

Caster Level 14?  This follows the beholder's of HD+2.
Eye ray range 140 feet?  This assumes CL 14 and the same "formula" as a standard beholder.
Skill ranks:  Hide 15, Knowledge (arcana) 15, Knowledge (religion) 15, Listen 15, Search 15, Spot 15?


----------



## Krishnath (May 16, 2004)

Sorry for being away, got distracted. 

Eye rays: The additional ones sound good.
Caster level: good.
Range: 140' is good.
Skills: good.

Later, and I'll try to stop by more often.


----------



## Shade (May 17, 2004)

Welcome back, Krishnath!

OK, I've updated it.  All we have left is one more feat and CR.   Any suggestions on the feat?   We could give it Lightning Reflexes since it has weak Reflex saves and already has the other two "save buff" feats if we can't come up with anything better.

Don't be a stranger around these parts.


----------



## Krishnath (May 18, 2004)

Lightning Reflexes sounds like a good idea.


----------



## Shade (May 18, 2004)

Alright, it's just about finished.

Do we want to keep the Organization line as Solitary, pair, or cluster (3-6), like other beholders, or make it something like:

Organization: Solitary, pair, or dread cluster (1-2 eyes of the dead and 3-12 skeletons or zombies)

Challenge Rating: 13 or 14?  (It has one more HD and slightly better stats than a standard beholder, but I'm not sure that its powers justify a higher CR).


----------



## Krishnath (May 20, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Alright, it's just about finished.
> 
> Do we want to keep the Organization line as Solitary, pair, or cluster (3-6), like other beholders, or make it something like:
> 
> ...



Second option for the organization and CR 13


----------



## Shade (May 20, 2004)

Cool.  That wraps up the eye of the dead.   I'll get the next one started shortly.


----------



## Shade (May 20, 2004)

Continuing with the "eye" theme, here's the Eye of the Beholder.

Following Krishnath's suggestion, this one will have 11 HD. Its game statistics are as follows:

Str 10, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 10
AC -4
100 HP
Special Abilities: fire, cold, acid, electricity, and magic resistance 20
Eye rays: Cause serious wounds, flesh to stone, anti-magic ray, domination, slow, death ray, charm person, fear

*Beholderkin, Eye of the Beholder*
Large Aberration
Hit Dice: 11d8+44 (93 hp)
Initiative: +7
Speed: 5 ft. (1 square), fly 20 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 24 (-1 size, +3 Dex, +12 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 21
Base Attack/Grapple: +8/+10
Attack: Eye rays +10 ranged touch 
Full Attack: Eye rays +10 ranged touch 
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Eye rays
Special Qualities: All-around vision, antimagic cone, darkvision 60 ft., flight, resistance to acid 10, cold 10, electricity 10, and fire 10, spell resistance 23, telepathy 100 ft.
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +6, Will +11
Abilities: Str 7, Dex 17, Con 18, Int 17, Wis 15, Cha 15
Skills: Hide +13, Knowledge (arcana) +17, Listen +18, Search +21, Spot +22, Survival +2 (+4 following tracks)
Feats: Alertness (B), Flyby Attack, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Iron Will
Environment: Cold hills and underground
Organization: Solitary, pair, or cluster (3-6)
Challenge Rating: 13
Treasure: Double standard
Alignment: Usually lawful evil
Advancement: 12-16 HD (Large); 17-33 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: -- 

_An 8-foot diameter writhing mass of eyestalks, muscles, and nerves hovers in the air. A large eye and an exposed brain are nestled within the center of this mass._

Eyes of the beholder are mutant beholderkin created by Lycanth the Enlightented, a powerful wizard in the service of the dragon Abazigal. Because they are created via experimentation on standard beholderkin, true beholders and their kin will attack them on sight.

The first eye of the beholder was created by removing the chitinous exoskeleton from a standard beholder, and over time magical experimentation has created the monstrosity seen today. Its mouth has evolved into a simple feeding tube, only strong enough to pierce the outer layers of an eyeball. Its exposed nerves and muscles have toughened over time, although are not as tough as the exoskeleton of its original form.

An eye of the beholder gains nourishment by draining the viscious fluids from the eyes of the recently deceased with a long, thin feeding tube.

Eyes of the beholder understand the language of Beholders and Common, but only speak telepathically.

Combat

Like other beholders, an eye of the beholder often attacks without provocation, attempting to use as many of its rays as it can. 

*Eye Rays (Su):* Each of an eye of the beholder's 10 eye rays resembles a spell cast by a 13th-level caster. Each eye ray has a range of 130 feet and a save DC of 17. The save DCs are Charisma-based. The 10 eye rays inclue: 

_Anti-magic:_ The target must succeed on a Will save or be affected as though within an _antimagic field_ for 13 rounds. An eye of the beholder uses this ray to neutralize an enemy spellcaster or a particularly threatening magic item.

_Charm Monster:_ The target must succeed on a Will save or be affected as though by the spell. An eye of the beholder uses this ray to confuse the opposition, usually employing it early in a fight. The beholder generally instructs a charmed target to either restrain a comrade or stand aside. 

_Dominate Monster:_ The target must succeed on a Will save or be affected as though by the spell. An eye of the beholder uses this ray to enslave thralls to do manual labor for it. 

_Fear:_ This works like the spell, except that it targets one creature. The target must succeed on a Will save or be affected as though by the spell. An An eye of the beholder likes to use this ray against warriors and other powerful creatures early in a fight to break up the opposition. 

_Finger of Death:_ The target must succeed on a Fortitude save or be slain as though by the spell. The target takes 3d6+13 points of damage if its saving throw succeeds. An An eye of the beholder uses this ray to eliminate dangerous foes quickly. 

_Flesh to Stone:_ The target must succeed on a Fortitude save or be affected as though by the spell. An eye of the beholder likes to aim this ray at enemy spellcasters. It also uses it on any creature whose appearance it finds interesting. (After the fight, the eye of the beholder has its thralls carry the statue to its lair as a decoration.) 

_Inflict Serious Wounds:_ This works like the spell, causing 3d8+13 points of damage (Will half). 

_Lightning Ray:_ This works like the _lightning bolt _spell, except that it is a ray instead of a line, causing 10d6 points of electricity damage (Reflex half). 

_Scorching Ray:_ This works like the spell, firing three simultaneous rays causing 4d6 points of fire damage each. 

_Slow:_ This works like the spell, except that it affects one creature. The target can make a Will save to negate the effect. An eye of the beholder often uses this ray against the same creature targeted by its flesh to stone or finger of death ray. If one of the former rays fails to eliminate the foe, this ray might at least hamper it. 

*Antimagic Cone (Su):* An eye of the beholder's central eye continually produces a 150-foot cone of antimagic. This functions just like _antimagic field_ (caster level 13th). All magical and supernatural powers and effects within the cone are suppressed--even the eye of the beholder's own eye rays. Once each round, during its turn, the eye of the beholder decides whether the antimagic cone is active or not (the eye of the beholder deactivates the cone by shutting its central eye).

*All-Around Vision (Ex):* Eyes of the beholder are exceptionally alert and circumspect. Their many eyes give them a +4 racial bonus on Spot and Search checks, and they can't be flanked.

*Flight (Ex):* An eye of the beholder's body is naturally buoyant. This buoyancy allows it to fly at a speed of 20 feet. This buoyancy also grants it a permanent feather fall effect (as the spell) with personal range.

The eye of the beholder first appeared in the Black Isle computer game _Baldurs Gate II: Throne of Bhaal_, (2001).


----------



## Shade (May 20, 2004)

OK, I posted the stat block based on it being another variety of the basic beholder body shape.  However, would it be cooler if we made this one an actual extracted eyeball, so that it is actually an "eye of the beholder"?


----------



## Filby (May 20, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> OK, I posted the stat block based on it being another variety of the basic beholder body shape.  However, would it be cooler if we made this one an actual extracted eyeball, so that it is actually an "eye of the beholder"?




That would be pretty cool, but it does have nine eye rays, and having them all come out of the same eye kinda defeats the purpose of the beholder, ie, the monster that can attack from all angles.

Perhaps if it's, like, a beholder's central nervous system, ripped from its body, per se? Say... a shrunken little brain (less intelligent and thus more servile), the huge central eye floating in front of it, and eight long eye stalks writhing around in the air like a medusa with a bad hair day. How's that sound?


----------



## Krishnath (May 20, 2004)

Hmm... Then we would have to change it size to small or perhaps even tiny, and we have an extracted eyeball allready, so I think we should go with the standard beholder shape for this one.


----------



## Shade (May 20, 2004)

Filby said:
			
		

> That would be pretty cool, but it does have nine eye rays, and having them all come out of the same eye kinda defeats the purpose of the beholder, ie, the monster that can attack from all angles.
> 
> Perhaps if it's, like, a beholder's central nervous system, ripped from its body, per se? Say... a shrunken little brain (less intelligent and thus more servile), the huge central eye floating in front of it, and eight long eye stalks writhing around in the air like a medusa with a bad hair day. How's that sound?



Ooh...I like that idea!  We can just make it the eye and eyestalks connected by nerves, etc.   We could have the stalks form a ring around the central eye, and thus  It could still be Large, as its diameter from stalk to stalk could still be 8 feet.  It would lack a bite attack, which is fine since it didn't have one in the game, and this would help account for its lower natural armor than a standard beholder.  

See the picture of the gouger on the far left here http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mof_gallery/MonFaePG23.jpg for an idea of how the stalks would be placed.

It's probably not appropriate to reduce the intelligence for this creature, as it was supposed to be slightly better than a beholder in the game.  I noticed that all the beholders in the game had Int 13, except for the vigilant, which meant that it probably didn't have much of an impact on the game.  But these creatures acted as intelligent as a regular beholder.


----------



## Filby (May 21, 2004)

Oh, really? Alright then, med-high Int it is. Glad you like my idea, too.


----------



## Krishnath (May 21, 2004)

Question: It they lack a mouth and digestive system, how do they feed?


----------



## Shade (May 21, 2004)

An excellent question.   

Should we keep the standard mouth, give it a small suckerlike mouth, or state that it feeds on something else supernaturally, like fear or somesuch?


----------



## Krishnath (May 22, 2004)

if it was named anything other than "Eye if the Beholder" I would have suggested giving it a lamprey like mouth. But since it is named that, hmm.... perhaps it 'eats' spiritual energy, more specifically the spiritual energy released when creatures die... Not souls per se, but rather a by product created when souls are released from the dead....


----------



## Shade (May 24, 2004)

I think you're on the right track.  Maybe, since its ocular-oriented, it draws sustenance from the visual of the moment of death?


----------



## Krishnath (May 25, 2004)

I've got it, it gains nourishment by draining the viscious fluids from the eyes of the recently deceased.


----------



## Shade (May 25, 2004)

Gross!   Immensely cool, and appropriate, but gross!


----------



## Krishnath (May 26, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Gross!   Immensely cool, and appropriate, but gross!



That was what I was aiming for.


----------



## Shade (May 26, 2004)

OK, now that we've got that out of the way, let's work on the ability scores.

Here's the standard beholder's scores:
Str 10, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 17, Wis 15, Cha 15

I'm thinking we should increase Dex, and lower Str, and keep the mental stats about the same.  Thoughts?


----------



## Krishnath (May 27, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> OK, now that we've got that out of the way, let's work on the ability scores.
> 
> Here's the standard beholder's scores:
> Str 10, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 17, Wis 15, Cha 15
> ...



I agree, reduce the Str to 7 and increase the Dex to 17.


----------



## Shade (May 27, 2004)

Updated.  Check it out and let me know if I'm on the right track with what we've discussed so far.

Another thought:  since it lacks a mouth, shall we give it telepathy so that it may communicate?   If so, what range?


----------



## Krishnath (May 28, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Updated.  Check it out and let me know if I'm on the right track with what we've discussed so far.
> 
> Another thought:  since it lacks a mouth, shall we give it telepathy so that it may communicate?   If so, what range?



Looks good so far.

Telepathy: This is usually at 100' range, so I think that would suffice for this creature.


----------



## Shade (May 28, 2004)

OK, telepathy is added.   I also worked up the eye rays.  Take a look and tell me what you think.  Pay particular attention to the anti-magic ray, as it is the only truly "new" ray.


----------



## Krishnath (Jun 1, 2004)

Looks good, you might want to add another eye ray or two that deals damage.


----------



## Shade (Jun 2, 2004)

> Looks good, you might want to add another eye ray or two that deals damage.



Any suggestions?


----------



## Krishnath (Jun 3, 2004)

Well the logical step would be to use Scorching Ray as one, and Polar Ray as the other. Unfortunatly Polar Ray is a little to powerful for this beholder-kin, so we should probably go with a ray version of Lightning Bolt instead.


----------



## Shade (Jun 3, 2004)

We could give it a lesser polar ray...just call it cold ray and have it do the same damage as the scorching ray.  Whaddya think?

Otherwise, the lightning ray would work fine.


----------



## Krishnath (Jun 4, 2004)

I think the lightning ray would be the better option.


----------



## Shade (Jun 4, 2004)

Updated.  How's it look?


----------



## Krishnath (Jun 4, 2004)

Looks good.

For the energy resistances, how about 10? it's a nice round number, the SR should probably be CR +10. and it's CR should be (by my calculations) somewhere around 10. CR 11 perhaps? or is that to low? It is more powerfull than the average beholder, but has lower armor, so a CR of 13 should be good.


----------



## Shade (Jun 4, 2004)

I followed your suggestions, and decided to go with CR 13.  I think its definitely on par with a standard beholder, but not a full CR better.

Look it over and see if I missed anything.  Otherwise, I think we're ready for the next one.


----------



## Krishnath (Jun 5, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> I followed your suggestions, and decided to go with CR 13.  I think its definitely on par with a standard beholder, but not a full CR better.
> 
> Look it over and see if I missed anything.  Otherwise, I think we're ready for the next one.



Looks finished. NEXT!


----------



## Shade (Jun 7, 2004)

Cool. We're up to the last of the beholderkin. This one is a bit wierd. It lacks eye rays, yet fires "arrows". I'm thinking we can simulate this by having it fire projectiles out of its eyestalks.

From the game:
Str 10, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 10
AC 2
40 HP
No resistances

As always, we'll use Krishnath's suggested HD (5d8).

*Beholderkin, Eagle Eye
*Small Aberration
Hit Dice: 5d8+10 (32 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 5 ft. (1 square), fly 20 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 18 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +4 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/-2
Attack: Bone arrow +7 ranged (1d6/x3) or bite +X melee (1d4-1)
Full Attack: 4 bone arrows +7 ranged (1d6/x3) or bite +X melee (1d4-1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Bone arrows
Special Qualities: All-around vision, darkvision 60 ft., flight
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +5
Abilities: Str 8, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 11
Skills: Listen +9, Search +11, Spot +13, and Survival +7
Feats: Alertness (B), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
Environment: Cold hills and underground
Organization: Solitary, pair, or cluster (3-6)
Challenge Rating: 3
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually lawful evil
Advancement: 6-10 HD (Medium); 11-15 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: -- 

_A 3-foot wide_ _azure orb floats before you. Its chitonous body has a large central eye and smaller eyes dot its surface. Its mouth is wide and filled with needle-like teeth. Four hollow stalks move about, seeiming to track your movement_.

Eagle eyes are mutant beholderkin created by Lycanth the Enlightented, a powerful wizard in the service of the dragon Abazigal. Because eagle eyes are created via experimentation on standard beholderkin, true beholders and their kin will attack them on sight.

An eagle eye is a 3-foot wide orb dominated by a central eye. Four eyestalks sprout from the top of its body. Unlike many beholderkin, its central eye serves no special function.

Eagle eyes speak the language of Beholders and Common.

Combat

Eagle eyes open combat with their bone arrows, and use their flight to stay out of opponents' reach while they continue to fire a volley of these natural projectiles.

*All-Around Vision (Ex):* Eagle eyes are exceptionally alert and circumspect. Their many eyes give them a +4 racial bonus on Spot and Search checks, and they can't be flanked.

*Bone Arrows (Ex):* An eagle eye continually produces small bone fragments which it can fire from its hollow stalks. It may fire up to four bone arrows per round.

*Flight (Ex):* An eagle eye's body is naturally buoyant. This buoyancy allows it to fly at a speed of 20 feet. This buoyancy also grants it a permanent feather fall effect (as the spell) with personal range.

The eagle eye first appeared in the Black Isle computer game _Baldurs Gate II: Throne of Bhaal_, (2001).


----------



## Krishnath (Jun 8, 2004)

Let's see...

Str 8, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 11?

Which would give it 32 hp (Yes, I know it is lower than in game, but bare with me. ) and a natural armor bonus of +4 (AC:18, +1 size, +3 Dex, +4 natural)

As for attacks, we should have Bite as the secondary attack, and _Bone arrow_ as the primary. I think it should be able to fire four of these in a round, what do you think? Or perhaps it should spit globs of acid with its "eye stalks"?

As for it's appearance I suggest it looks like a smaller beholder, with hollow funnels instead of eyestalks. Also make the creatures color a shade of blue, I suggest azure.


----------



## Shade (Jun 8, 2004)

That all sounds good.  I prefer the bone arrow to the acid.   Four arrows a round sounds about right.

Should it lose all-around vision for the lack of eye on the stalks?   Or should we throw in a few "standard" eye stalks in addition to the hollow stalks?

I'm fine with azure coloration, but may I ask why?


----------



## Krishnath (Jun 8, 2004)

Bone arrows it is then, as for the color, I just thought a blue beholder-kin would be cool. 

And for the all-around vision, just dot the creatures body with eyes, should be a sufficient explenation.


----------



## Shade (Jun 8, 2004)

Sounds good to me.  I updated the statistics.  

Is the description what you had in mind?

Should we limit it to the rate it can produce bone arrows, similar to the breath weapon recharage interval for dragons?

For feats, how about Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot?


----------



## Krishnath (Jun 9, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Sounds good to me.  I updated the statistics.
> 
> Is the description what you had in mind?
> 
> ...



For the description, you forgot the mouth, but other than that it sounds good.

Bone arrows: No need to limit it...

Feats: Sounds good.


----------



## Shade (Jun 11, 2004)

Good catch on the lack of mouth.   I've updated the description, and added the feats.

For the bone arrow damage, shall we go with 1d6 like a shortbow?   Should we give them x3 critical like a true arrow?   For bite, 1d4?


----------



## Krishnath (Jun 11, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Good catch on the lack of mouth.   I've updated the description, and added the feats.
> 
> For the bone arrow damage, shall we go with 1d6 like a shortbow?   Should we give them x3 critical like a true arrow?   For bite, 1d4?



Yes, yes, and yes. 

As for the skills: Listen +6, Search +6, Spot +6, and survival +6 (before ability mods and racial bonuses)?


----------



## Shade (Jun 11, 2004)

I like your skill selections, so I updated it with them and the damage we discussed.  All that's left is the CR.

CR 2-3?  The seeker is CR 4, and is significantly more effective for the same HD.


----------



## Krishnath (Jun 12, 2004)

Better go with CR 3 then. Are we finished with this one?


----------



## Shade (Jun 14, 2004)

CR 3 it is, and we're done.    

I'd like to do the velithuu next, but what would you like to see after that?   I'm going to have to fire up BG2 to get the stats for the velithuu, so another BG2 or TOB selection would be great.  However, if you'd really like to see something from another game, I'm flexible.


----------



## Krishnath (Jun 15, 2004)

Anything is good for me.


----------



## Shade (Jun 21, 2004)

OK, I found time to fire up BG2 and get the stats for the velithuu.  These guys are powerful!

Here are the game stats:   
AC -9, HP 80
Str 18, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 18, Wis 16, Cha 25
3 attacks/round, either with shocking shortbow or longspear
Immunity to fire, electricity, and poison
Magic resistance 50%, cold resistance 50%
Spells:  call lightning, miscast magic, cause serious wounds

Compare to the game stats for a pit fiend:
AC -8, HP 100
Str 18/00, Dex 17, Con 9, Int 9, Wis 16, Cha 25

So it looks like they should have better Dex and AC than a pit fiend.  I'm disregarding the Con and Int for the pit fiend, as they appear to be an anomaly for that game.   They should be close with mental stats to a pit fiend.

Krishnath, what HD would you suggest?  You had a good formula for the beholderkin which may apply here as well.


----------



## Krishnath (Jun 21, 2004)

HD 9d8 if they are outsiders.

Question: what do they look like in the game?


----------



## Shade (Jun 21, 2004)

Hmm...we'll have to bump them up a bit.  I neglected to state that they were tougher (hit point-wise) than cornugons in the game.   So we need to place them between a cornugon (15 HD) and a pit fiend (18 HD).

They had serpentine tails with humanoid torsos, a pair of antlers (like those of an antelope), and spines protruding from their back.  They used the animation for a salamander, but were greenish-gray instead of reddish-orange.


----------



## Shade (Jun 21, 2004)

And here's the beginning stat block:

*Devil, Velithuu*
Large Outsider (Baatezu, Evil, Extraplanar, Lawful)
Hit Dice: 16d8+128 (200 hp)
Initiative: +7
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 36 (–1 size, +7 Dex, +20 natural) touch 16, flat-footed 29
Base Attack/Grapple: +16/+31
Attack: Longspear +26 melee (2d6+16/x3 plus 1d8 electricity) or _+2 shocking burst shortbow_ +24 ranged (1d8+2 plus 1d6 electricity/x3 plus 2d10 electricity)
Full Attack: Longspear +26/+21/+16/+11 melee (2d6+16/x3 plus 1d8 electricity) and tail slap +21/+16/+11/+6 melee (3d8+5 plus 1d8 electricity) or _+2 shocking burst shortbow_ +24/+24/+19/+14/+9 ranged (1d8+2 plus 1d6 electricity/x3 plus 2d10 electricity)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. (15 ft. with longspear)
Special Attacks: Frightful presence, shock, spell-like abilities, _summon baatezu_
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 10/good and silver, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to electricity, fire and poison, regeneration 5, resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, see in darkness, spell resistance 29, telepathy 100 ft.
Saves: Fort +18, Ref +17, Will +15
Abilities: Str 33, Dex 25, Con 27, Int 16, Wis 20, Cha 24
Skills: Balance +9, Bluff +26, Concentration +27, Diplomacy +11, Disguise +7 (+9 acting), Hide +26, Intimidate +28, Jump +17, Listen +24, Knowledge (the planes) +21, Move Silently +26, Search +21, Sense Motive +24, Spot +24, Survival +5 (+7 on other planes), Tumble +26
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Manyshot, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot
Environment: Nine Hells of Baator
Organization: Solitary, team (2–4), or squad (6–10)
Challenge Rating: 17
Treasure: Standard coins; double goods; standard items, plus +_2 shocking burst shortbow_
Alignment: Always lawful evil
Advancement: 17-24 (Large); 25-48 (Huge)
Level Adjustment: -

_This being has a muscular humanoid upper body with a gargoyle face. Its body is serpentine from the waist down, and is covered in greenish-gray scales. Spines sprout from the creature's back and arms. Small antlers jut out of its forehead. Jolts of electricity dance around its body in random intervals._

Velithuus serve as elite assault troops and enforcers in the baatezu ranks.

A velithuu stands about 9 feet tall and measures about 20 feet from head to tip of tail. It weighs about 4,000 pounds.

Velithuus speak Infernal, Celestial, and Draconic.

Combat

Velithuus open combat at range with a volley of arrows from their _shocking burst bows_, utilizing the Manyshot feat to fire multiple arrows while moving. Once combatants are within melee range, they use metal spears which conduct their natural electricity and powerful tail slaps. 

A velithuu's natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as evil-aligned and lawful-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

*Frightful Presence (Ex):* When a velithuu charges or attacks, it inspires terror in all creatures within 60 feet that have fewer Hit Dice or levels than it has. Each potentially affected opponent must attempt a DC 25 Will save. On a failure, a creature with 4 or fewer HD becomes panicked for 4d6 rounds, and one with 5 or more HD becomes shaken for 4d6 rounds. A successful save leaves that opponent immune to that velithuu's frightful presence for 24 hours. Devils ignore the frightful presence of velithuus. The save DC is Charisma-based.

*Shock (Ex):* A velithuu generates so much electricity that its mere touch deals additional electricity damage. Velithuus' metallic weapons also conduct this electricity.

*Spell-Like Abilities:* At will—_call lightning_ (DC 20), _dispel chaos_ (DC 22), _dispel good_ (DC 22), _greater teleport_ (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), _inflict serious wounds_ (DC 20), _lightning bolt_ (DC 20), _magic circle against good, persistant image_ (DC 22); 3/day—_blasphemy_ (DC 24), _chain lightning_ (DC 23), _dispel magic, unholy aura_ (DC 25). Caster level 18th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

*Summon Baatezu (Sp):* Once per day a velithuu can attempt to summon 2d4 bone devils with a 75% chance of success, 1 ice devil with a 50% chance of success, or another velithuu with a 20% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of an 8th-level spell.

*Regeneration (Ex):* A velithuu takes normal damage from good-aligned silvered weapons, and from spells or effects with the good descriptor.

*See in Darkness (Su):* All baatezu can see perfectly in darkness of any kind, even that created by a _deeper darkness_ spell.

The velithuu first appeared in the Black Isle computer game _Baldurs Gate II: Throne of Bhaal_, (2001).


----------



## Krishnath (Jun 22, 2004)

Hmm... In that case I think we should probably give them 16 HD, thus making them slightly stronger than the Horned Devil.

Abilities: Str 33, Dex 25, Con 27, Int 16, Wis 20, Cha 24?

Natural Armor: +20 natural?

On another note, may I suggest we do Belhifet next?


----------



## Shade (Jun 22, 2004)

Yes, yes, yes, and yes.   

I'll update the stat block.


----------



## Shade (Jun 22, 2004)

Wow!  This guy is shaping up to be a real powerhouse.

Some thoughts:

Speed: 40 ft. (as marilith, which has similar body shape)?

Should it have a tail slap, as both the marilith and noble salamanders (which it resembles)?

DR 10/good and silver or 15/good and silver?  (It falls right between the cornugon and pit fiend, which have these respectively).

How about something similar to the salamander's heat ability, except for electricity?

Should it have fear aura and/or regeneration, as both the cornugon and pit fiend have these abilities?


----------



## Krishnath (Jun 23, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Wow!  This guy is shaping up to be a real powerhouse.
> 
> Some thoughts:
> 
> Speed: 40 ft. (as marilith, which has similar body shape)?



Yes.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Should it have a tail slap, as both the marilith and noble salamanders (which it resembles)?



Yes.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> DR 10/good and silver or 15/good and silver?  (It falls right between the cornugon and pit fiend, which have these respectively).



 DR 10/good and silver seems to be the best option, it is weaker than the Pit Fiend after all.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> How about something similar to the salamander's heat ability, except for electricity?



sounds like a plan, call it electric aura or some such.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Should it have fear aura and/or regeneration, as both the cornugon and pit fiend have these abilities?



Give it frightful presence (as dragons) rather than a fear aura, as for the regeneration, yes definetly.


----------



## Shade (Jun 23, 2004)

Cool.  I've updated it again.

What value shall we give for regeneration?  Both cornugons and pit fiends have regeneration 5, so shall we just stick with that?

I think we need to add some spell-like abilities.  I'd suggest a few more electricity-based abilities, like lightning bolt and/or chain lightning, and some more "devil standards", like magic circle against good and unholy aura.  Any suggestions?  Since both the cornugon and pit fiend have caster level equal to HD, I'd recommend we stick with that for the velithuu.

For organization, a quick glance at various devils shows that most have Solitary, team (2–4), or squad (6–10), and some also have troupe, which includes mixed types.   We also need to determine what other baatezu they summon, which might help with a troupe entry if we use it.


----------



## Krishnath (Jun 23, 2004)

Regen 5 is good (good and holy vunerability?).

Spell likes, add the following:

At will - _Dispel chaos_, _Dispel Good_, _Lightning Bolt_, _Magic circle against good_, and _Persistant Image_.

3/day - _Chain Lightning_, _Unholy Aura_.

Perhaps one or two more? _Blasphemy_ perhaps?

As for what it should summon: Gelugons. 50% chance, or Osyluths 75% chance.

Organization: Solitary, team (2–4), or squad (6–10), sounds perfect.


----------



## Shade (Jun 23, 2004)

I like your spell-like suggestions.  Let's add blasphemy, and how about dispel magic to remove those pesky electricity resistance effects?

How about this:

Summon Baatezu (Sp): Once per day a velithuu can attempt to summon 2d4 bone devils with a 75% chance of success, 1 ice devil with a 50% chance of success, or another velithuu with a 20% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of an 8th-level spell.


----------



## Krishnath (Jun 24, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> I like your spell-like suggestions.  Let's add blasphemy, and how about dispel magic to remove those pesky electricity resistance effects?
> 
> How about this:
> 
> Summon Baatezu (Sp): Once per day a velithuu can attempt to summon 2d4 bone devils with a 75% chance of success, 1 ice devil with a 50% chance of success, or another velithuu with a 20% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of an 8th-level spell.



All sounds good, _Dispel Magic_ 3/day?


----------



## Shade (Jun 24, 2004)

Updated with what we discussed.

What should we use for tail slap damage?  Mariliths do 4d6, noble salamanders do 2d8, both are the same size as velithuu.   

Treasure:  Standard coins; double goods; standard items, plus +_2 shocking burst shortbow_?

Advancement:  17-32 HD (Large); 33-48 HD (Huge) [similar to pit fiend], or 17–20 HD (Large); 21–48 HD (Huge) [similar to marilith], or something else?

CR 17?


----------



## Krishnath (Jun 24, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Updated with what we discussed.
> 
> What should we use for tail slap damage?  Mariliths do 4d6, noble salamanders do 2d8, both are the same size as velithuu.
> 
> ...



Tail slap 3d8,
Treasure: I agree.
Advacement: 17-24 (Large); 25-48 (Huge).
CR: 17 sounds about right.


----------



## Shade (Jun 24, 2004)

For feats, how about Combat Reflexes, Multiattack, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot?

Suggested skill ranks:  Bluff 19, Concentration 19, Hide 19, Intimidate 19, Listen 19, Knowledge (the planes) 19, Move Silently 19, Search 19, Sense Motive 19, Spot 19, Tumble 19  (It seems like many devils take only ability modifiers and synergy bonuses in Diplomacy and Survival).


----------



## Krishnath (Jun 25, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> For feats, how about Combat Reflexes, Multiattack, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot?
> 
> Suggested skill ranks:  Bluff 19, Concentration 19, Hide 19, Intimidate 19, Listen 19, Knowledge (the planes) 19, Move Silently 19, Search 19, Sense Motive 19, Spot 19, Tumble 19  (It seems like many devils take only ability modifiers and synergy bonuses in Diplomacy and Survival).



Feats: Sounds good.

Skills: If you want them to be more of the type of "classical" devil that makes deals with mortals for their souls, I suggest giving it Diplomacy in place of Tumble. If not, the skills are good as is.


----------



## Shade (Jun 25, 2004)

I'm swapping Multiattack for Manyshot. This way, they can fire a volley of arrows as a standard action while closing in to melee range. Besides, they only have two separate melee attacks, so they don't even meet the prerequisites of three natural attacks.  

I decided to stick with Tumble for a couple of reasons. First, they seem more like a straightforward combatant than a beguiler, but the main reason is that it is more in line with the other top devils. They already have a higher Diplomacy modifier than pit fiends! 

I'm actually suprised, and a bit disappointed, that devils overall don't have higher Diplomacy scores. Demons have much higher scores, and this just seems backwards.

It looks like all that's left is to figure out the area of their frightful presence attack, and then I think we're finished.


----------



## Krishnath (Jun 25, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'm swapping Multiattack for Manyshot. This way, they can fire a volley of arrows as a standard action while closing in to melee range. Besides, they only have two separate melee attacks, so they don't even meet the prerequisites of three natural attacks.
> 
> I decided to stick with Tumble for a couple of reasons. First, they seem more like a straightforward combatant than a beguiler, but the main reason is that it is more in line with the other top devils. They already have a higher Diplomacy modifier than pit fiends!
> 
> ...



Sounds good, I agree, and 60', NEXT!


----------



## Shade (Jun 25, 2004)

OK, then we've got Belhifet up next.   I'll need to fire up IWD and get his stats, etc., when I get a chance.

BTW, does Belhifet appear in IWD2?   I haven't gotten very far in it, so if he is I haven't seen him yet.


----------



## Krishnath (Jun 25, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> OK, then we've got Belhifet up next.   I'll need to fire up IWD and get his stats, etc., when I get a chance.
> 
> BTW, does Belhifet appear in IWD2?   I haven't gotten very far in it, so if he is I haven't seen him yet.



Don't know, haven't played it, but I would be surprised if he didn't, he was the main badguy in the first game, even though the Dracolich in _Heart of Winter_ was badass.


----------



## Shade (Jun 25, 2004)

OK, we'll just do the IWD version for now.

And yes, the dracolich was one bad mutha.


----------



## Krishnath (Jun 26, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> OK, we'll just do the IWD version for now.
> 
> And yes, the dracolich was one bad mutha.




Shut yo' mouth!


----------



## Shade (Jul 26, 2004)

I haven't abandoned, or forgotten, this thread.   I've been very busy with the birth of my new daughter.  Additionally, I realize I need to reinstall Icewind Dale before I can get the stats for the next critter.   So hang in there, and I'll get this thread going again when I get a chance.


----------



## BOZ (Jul 27, 2004)

congratulations, daddy!  

welcome back, good to have ya here.


----------



## Krishnath (Aug 5, 2004)

Congratulations, and take all the time you need.


----------



## Shade (Nov 15, 2004)

This thread has lied dormant long enough!

Unfortunately, I can't seem to get Icewind Dale to run on my machine.  In the meantime, here's a critter from Throne of Bhaal to hold us over while I continue to try to get it to work.

Chromatic Demon
AC -9, HP 140, Chaotic evil
Str 19, Dex 18, Con 20, Int 14, Wis 9, Cha 9
4 attacks
Resistances:  Fire 100, magic fire 100, elec 100, acid 100, cold 100, magic cold 100, poison 100, slashing 95, crushing 95, piercing 95, missle 95.

The chromatic demon shifts between four forms: a cloudy air form (vulnerable to acid), a red, fiery form (vulnerable to ice), a clear ice form (vulnerable to fire), and a green form (vulnerable to electricity). 

It carries the following treasures:  
Portal key
Circlet of Netheril
Ixil's spike (dagger) 

Circlet of Netheril 
Description Component Location 
Bonuses: Memorize One extra 7th and 8th level spell.
Hit Points: +10
Components:  Circlet of Netheril, Bronze Ioun Stone, 5,000 Gold


----------



## Shade (Nov 15, 2004)

For starters, this critter was more powerful than a pit fiend in nearly every way in BG2. It had 40 more hp, 1 better AC, and better physical stats and intelligence (but lower Wis and Cha).

So here's a rough stat block to begin with:

*Demon, Chromatic*
Large Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar, Tanar'ri)
Hit Dice: 20d8+220 (310 hp)
Initiative: +9
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), fly 90 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 37 (-1 size, +9 Dex, +19 natural), touch 18, flat-footed 28
Base Attack/Grapple: +20/+38
Attack: Slam +33 melee (1d10+14/19-20 plus energy damage)
Full Attack: 4 slams +33 melee (1d10+14/19-20 plus energy damage)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. 
Special Attacks: Alternate form, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 15/cold iron and good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to poison, spell resistance 29, telepathy 100 ft., variable immunities, variable vulnerabilities
Saves: Fort +23, Ref +21, Will +18
Abilities: Str 39, Dex 29, Con 33, Int 28, Wis 22, Cha 23
Skills: Balance +11, Bluff +29, Concentration +34, Diplomacy +33, Disguise +6 (+8 acting), Hide +28, Intimidate +31, Jump +20, Knowledge (any four) +32, Listen +29, Move Silently +32, Search +32, Sense Motive +29, Spellcraft +32 (+37 scrolls), Spot +29, Survival +6 (+8 following tracks), Tumble +32, Use Magic Device +29 (+31 scrolls) (17 at 23 ranks)
Feats: Empower Spell-Like Ability (acid fog), Empower Spell-Like Ability (chain lightning), Improved Critical (slam), Quicken Spell-Like Ability (acid fog), Quicken Spell-Like Ability (chain lightning), Power Attack, Weapon Focus (slam) [7 total]
Environment: Infinite Layers of the Abyss
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 21
Treasure: Standard coins; double goods; standard items 
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: 21–30 HD (Large); 31–60 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: - 

_A vaguely humanoid cloud of vapors, towering over twelve feet tall, crackles with electricity.  In seconds, it shifts color to a fiery red, and a palpable heat can be felt near it.  It then becomes white-hued and sparkling with tiny ice crystals, the air around it dropping a few degrees.  A few seconds later, it is greenish-tinged and gives off an acrid smell.   Throughout its shifting forms, its eyes always remain dark pits of steadfast malevolence._

Although individually a match for even a balor, chromatic demons rarely have political aspirations in the Abyss.  They relish destructions, and often serve as guardians for powerful demons and other fiends for opportunites to slaughter infiltrators.

A chromatic demon stands about 13 feet tall, but weighs only 20 pounds due to its vaporous nature.

Chromatic demons speak Abyssal, Celestial, and Draconic.

*Combat*

A chromatic demon typically opens combat in its cloudy air form, releasing a quickened empowered chain lightning to affect as many opponents as possible while striking with its electricity-tinged slams.  It uses its Knowledge skills to ascertain opponents' vulnerabilities, and shifts to a form that takes advantage of these weaknesses.  If it can't determine vulnerabilities through skills, it shifts forms until it finds one that seems successful.  If the opposition use protective spells, it liberally uses greater dispel magic to reduce these wards.

A chromatic demon's natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as chaotic-aligned and evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Alternate Form (Su): A chromatic demon can shift between its four forms as a standard action. It gains different energy damage, immunities, and vulnerabilities in each form.

In cloudy air form, the chromatic demon gains immunity to electricity and vulnerability to acid. Its slam attacks deal an additional 2d6 points of electricity damage.

In fiery form, the chromatic demon gains immunity to fire and vulnerability to cold. Its slam attacks deal an additional 2d6 points of fire damage.

In icy form, the chromatic demon gains immunity to cold and vulnerability to fire. Its slam attacks deal an additional 2d6 points of cold damage.

In corrosive cloud form, the chromatic demon gains immunity to acid and vulnerability to electricity. Its slam attacks deal an additional 2d6 points of acid damage.

A chromatic demon remains in one form until it chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, nor does the chromatic demon revert to any particular form when killed. A true seeing spell, however, reveals all forms simultaneously.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will—acid fog (DC 22), blasphemy (DC 23), chain lightning (DC 22), greater dispel magic, greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), ice storm, power word stun, telekinesis (DC 21), unholy aura (DC 24); 1/day—quickened empowered acid fog (DC 22), quickened empowered chain lightning (DC 22); 1/day—fire storm (DC 24), implosion (DC 25). Caster level 20th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.


----------



## Shade (Nov 15, 2005)

Wow...it's been a year to this day since I last posted on this thread.

I think I'll start with 20 HD and Str 39, Dex 29, Con 29, Int 28, Wis 22, Cha 23 and see where that leads.


----------



## Shade (Nov 15, 2005)

Alternate Form (Su): A chromatic demon can shift between its four forms as a standard action. It gains different energy damage, immunities, and vulnerabilities in each form.

In cloudy air form, the chromatic demon gains immunity to electricity and vulnerability to acid.  Its slam attacks deal an additional 2d6 points of electricity damage.

In fiery form, the chromatic demon gains immunity to fire and vulnerability to cold.  Its slam attacks deal an additional 2d6 points of fire damage.

In icy form, the chromatic demon gains immunity to cold and vulnerability to fire.  Its slam attacks deal an additional 2d6 points of cold damage.

In corrosive cloud form, the chromatic demon gains immunity to acid and vulnerability to electricity.  Its slam attacks deal an additional 2d6 points of acid damage.

A chromatic demon remains in one form until it chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, nor does the chromatic demon revert to any particular form when killed. A true seeing spell, however, reveals all forms simultaneously.


----------



## Shade (Nov 18, 2005)

I increased its Con as it had more hit points than a balor as well.


----------



## Shade (Nov 23, 2005)

Spell-Like Abilities: At will—acid fog (DC 22), blasphemy (DC 23), chain lightning (DC 22), greater dispel magic, greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), ice storm, power word stun, telekinesis (DC 21), unholy aura (DC 24); 1/day—fire storm (DC 24), implosion (DC 25). Caster level 20th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.


----------



## Shade (Nov 23, 2005)

Skill ranks:  Bluff  23, Concentration 23, Diplomacy 23, Hide 23, Intimidate 23, Knowledge (any four) 23, Listen 23, Move Silently 23, Search 23, Sense Motive 23, Spellcraft 23, Spot 23, Tumble 23, Use Magic Device 23


----------



## Shade (Nov 23, 2005)

Feats:  Empwer Spell-Like Ability (acid fog), Empwer Spell-Like Ability (chain lightning), Improved Critical (slam), Quicken Spell-Like Ability (acid fog), Quicken Spell-Like Ability (chain lightning), Power Attack, Weapon Focus (slam)


----------



## Shade (Dec 6, 2006)

Wow, another year has passed and I still haven't finished this conversion!   I think I'll finish it this year.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 11, 2006)

i know the feeling all too well!


----------



## Shade (Dec 11, 2006)

I think I've finished it!

Due to this threads incredible unpopularity, I probably won't tackle another one anytime soon.


----------



## Shade (Aug 24, 2007)

Now that we've decided to upload those creatures that had printed stats from these games to the Creature Catalogue, I'm reviving this thread.

Up next...

Cyclops, Desert
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any land
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Clan
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10)
TREASURE: M (Q, D)
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-6
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVEMENT: 10
HIT DICE: 6 + 6
THACØ: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-8 x 2 or
Weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (8’ - 10’)
MORALE: Steady (12)
EXP. POINT VALUE: 420

The desert cyclops is slightly taller than a human and has rough, sand-colored skin. They are
secretive creatures, often persecuted by humans who fear their size and the one large eye which seems to peer into their very soul. 

The upper body of the desert cyclops is usually quite muscular, sometimes out of proportion to the rest of their frame. Depending on its chosen lifestyle and habitat, desert cyclops can look extremely different from one another. Some wear animal hides and are covered with combat scars and sandpaper skin, while others dress normally, and do not look like fighters at all.

The only facet nearly identical in every desert cyclops is the large eye. It is unblinking, virtually always sky-blue, and is both the pride and shame of its owner. The eye is considered very beautiful among the cyclops themselves, but others use it as a rallying
point for vilification.

The cyclops do indeed have a special ability with their eye.  While looking at a person who is
speaking, they can ascertain if there are any lies being told. If the speaker knows of this power, he or she can try to block it and make the cyclops think that they are telling the truth by making a saving throw against magic.

Combat: Once angered or attacked, the desert cyclops is a vicious foe. A long history of
persecution has left them easy to anger and very dangerous when their ire does arise. They attack by punching with their strong arms, or with a large two-handed weapon with which they get a strength bonus of +6 on each hit.  The cyclops are not agile enough to use two weapons at one time.

Occasionally the desert cyclops are seen in armor, which needs to be specially made for their oddlyshaped bodies. However, most do not wear armor, since their naturally tough skin is often as good as any but the best metals. 

Habitat/Society: It is difficult to pin down the desert cyclops to any one type, as they live in
many different ways. The most common arrangement is the desert clan. This is a small group,
not usually more than six, excluding children, living as hunters and gatherers in the desert sands. They will move with the weather or as water supplies diminish. These clans are fiercely defensive and usually attack any intruder who does not obey their orders to leave immediately. Some kill anyone for just seeing where their clan is living. These actions help to fuel human anti-cyclops tendencies, which are otherwise largely built upon fallacies.

Other desert cyclops are loners, who live a solitary existence in a rocky cave or in a small building they have pieced together in the middle of some wasteland.  These cyclops are also defensive, but some of them begin to crave contact to such a degree that they will talk with strangers instead of attacking or hiding.  All desert cyclops speak in the common tongue.  

A very few number of desert cyclops have managed to find acceptance in human society, and have pursued careers as any other human would. This is always a tenuous existence which often ends with the cyclops being blamed for some tragedy or murder with which they had no connection.  However, there are also stories of Caliphs or other nobles hiring cyclops’ to help determine if their subjects are speaking the truth. 

Ecology: The cyclops has very similar dietary needs to that of a human, with one major difference.  Cyclops will sprinkle sand on their food in the same manner as humans would use a seasoning such as salt. No studies have been done to ascertain how the sand is digested or if it benefits the cyclops in any manner, although common theory states that it aids in
digestion. There are no records of a desert cyclops actually living off of sand, but it is a popular garnish. 

Source:  Al-Qadim: Genie's Curse, p. 51.


----------



## freyar (Aug 25, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Combat: Once angered or attacked, the desert cyclops is a vicious foe. A long history of
> persecution has left them easy to anger and very dangerous when their ire does arise. They attack by punching with their strong arms, or with a large two-handed weapon with which they get a strength bonus of +6 on each hit. The cyclops are not agile enough to use two weapons at one time.




So I guess Str is 18-19 and Dex < 15.  Other than that, the truth-telling gaze should probably be a _discern lies_ SLA at will (CL seems mostly irrelevant if this is at will, but let's say CL 7th).  Anything else unusual here?


----------



## Shade (Aug 27, 2007)

The lesser cyclops in Deities & Demigods (and Shining South) is 12 feet tall and has the following stats:

Str 27, Dex 9, Con 19, Int 6, Wis 8, Cha 6


----------



## freyar (Aug 29, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> The lesser cyclops in Deities & Demigods (and Shining South) is 12 feet tall and has the following stats:
> 
> Str 27, Dex 9, Con 19, Int 6, Wis 8, Cha 6




Do you know which of these cyclopes is supposed to be stronger?


----------



## Shade (Aug 29, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Do you know which of these cyclopes is supposed to be stronger?




Off the top of my head, no.  We'd need to check the 1e sources for cyclopses.

If we can't find an indicator, I usually go with taller=stronger for giant types.


----------



## freyar (Aug 29, 2007)

Well, this one is basically short enough to be medium size, so a lesser strength is beter, then.  Since going from medium to large gives +8 to STR, I guess 18 or 19 is reasonable for this one (though the lesser cyclops isn't all that big for being Large, either).  I picked 18-19 originally because of the +6 damage bonus on the two-handed weapon.

What about 
Str 19, Dex 11, Con 17, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 8?


----------



## Shade (Aug 29, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> What about
> Str 19, Dex 11, Con 17, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 8?




That outta work.


----------



## freyar (Aug 30, 2007)

Ok, is there anything left besides the flavor (assuming the SLA is taken care of)?


----------



## Shade (Sep 5, 2007)

I'll Homebrews it soon and we can re-examine.


----------



## Shade (Sep 7, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.

I kept them Large, as they range from 8-10 feet in height.

I reworked the truth-telling gaze to match a gaze attack.  What do you think?


----------



## freyar (Sep 7, 2007)

Looks pretty reasonable, though there're only 2 "t"s in Truth.   30 ft and the +2 racial bonus on the gaze sound good, too.


----------



## Shade (Sep 10, 2007)

Ffixed iit.    

Thoughts on these?

Skills: 9 (Climb, Jump, Spot for standard cyclops)

Feats: 3 (Cleave, Far Shot, Great Cleave, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack for standard cyclops, perhaps Ability Focus for gaze)

I'm thinking Ability Focus (truth-telling gaze), Cleave, and Power Attack for feats.


----------



## freyar (Sep 10, 2007)

I agree with you on the feats.  Maybe put 3 ranks in each of those skills?


----------



## Shade (Sep 14, 2007)

Sounds good. 

Let's fill in these blanks:

Organization: Solitary or x (2-6)
Challenge Rating: 5?
Treasure: x
Level Adjustment: +4 (same as lesser cyclops)?


----------



## freyar (Sep 14, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Organization: Solitary or x (2-6)
> Challenge Rating: 5?
> Treasure: x
> Level Adjustment: +4 (same as lesser cyclops)?




Hunting party?  Might also mention a larger clan unit.

This doesn't really look much harder than an ogre, so maybe CR 4?

Standard treasure, I think.

Maybe LA +3 since it's a lot weaker than the lesser cyclops.


----------



## Shade (Sep 20, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Hunting party?  Might also mention a larger clan unit.
> 
> This doesn't really look much harder than an ogre, so maybe CR 4?
> 
> ...




That all sounds good.


----------



## Mortis (Sep 20, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Feats: 3 (Cleave, Far Shot, Great Cleave, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack for standard cyclops, perhaps Ability Focus for gaze)



Personally I'd steer clear of Point Blank Shot and Far Shot (especially) due to a cyclops' poor depth perception.

Then again I'd probably penalise Spot for the same reason 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## freyar (Sep 20, 2007)

These guys aren't so dextrous, either, so I'd make them more melee mashers: power attack, cleave, and great cleave.  Maybe substitute ability focus for great cleave.


----------



## Shade (Sep 20, 2007)

It looks like the hunting party is the clan:



> The most common arrangement is the desert clan. This is a small group,
> not usually more than six, excluding children, living as hunters and gatherers in the desert sands.




Updated in Homebrews.


----------



## freyar (Sep 24, 2007)

Looking mostly done.  Let's say 450lbs?  I just have no judgment for these things, but I imagine these guys as being skinnier than ogres.  For flavor:

_This giant is roughly human in appearance and about the size of an ogre, though a bit thinner.  Its most distinctive characteristic is its single bright blue eye._

The desert cyclops is a large, roughly human shaped giant with sandy-colored, sometimes rough, skin and a single large eye.  While the dress and overall appearance of desert cyclops can vary a great deal, their eyes are almost always a light blue and quite striking.

Many humans hate and fear the desert cyclops because the cyclops's eye can be quite unnerving, as it seems to stare, unblinking, into an unguarded soul.  As a result, few desert cyclops live among humans; they tend to keep to themselves in the desert.

One oddity is that desert cyclops like to flavor their food with sand, though it is unknown whether sand is a dietary requirement.

Combat: A desert cyclops prefers to enter melee as quickly as possible once it is committed to fighting.  Usually it will attack with its fist or else with a large two-handed weapon.


----------



## Shade (Sep 25, 2007)

Good stuff.  I went slightly heavier (500 lbs).  Otherwise, I liked the flavor text.

How's it looking?


----------



## freyar (Sep 26, 2007)

I'd say this looks done!  500lbs is probably better, too.


----------



## Shade (Oct 1, 2007)

Great.  Next!

*Acid Blob*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Subterranean
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Pack
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: None (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 2-8 (1)
ARMOR CLASS: 8
MOVEMENT: 5
HIT DICE: 2
THACØ: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See Below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: S (2’-3’)
MORALE: (10)
EXP. POINT VALUE: 65

The acid blob is a small but potentially deadly creature living in unkempt underground areas.
Its name gives accurate description to the monster, a moving glob consisting of an acidic substance. The acid blob tends to be green, although darker colors have also been sighted. Unlike many of its ilk, the acid blob does not move on the wall or ceiling, it just hops along the ground.

Combat: The acid blob attacks by striking at prey with its body.  The acid is not strong enough to continue burning flesh after its strike, but metals are in great danger. Every non-magical metal weapon which touches the acid blob and every non-magical piece of metal armor which the acid blob hits must make a saving throw or be weakened.  Any item failing to save has a 5% cumulative chance of breaking each time it is struck thereafter. For example, a sword which is being used against an acid blob that fails two saving throws has a 10% chance of breaking every time it is used.  This corrosion has no effect on magical items.

Habitat/Society: Acid blobs are usually found in groups, since new acid blobs are created by
blobs separating from their host and then joining together. This is a purely instinctual occurrence since the blobs have no intelligence. 

Ecology: Acid blobs are dungeon scavengers, absorbing non-stone items they encounter
for whatever nutrients they require. While they can survive off of non-living materials, acid
blobs prefer living targets and will pursue them until death or lunch. 

Source: Al-Qadim: Genie's Curse, p. 47.


----------



## freyar (Oct 2, 2007)

I have a picture of a bowl of jello jumping around on a cave floor. 

I'd say make this an ooze, aim for CR1 probably.

So the attack does 1d6 acid damage; should this be a touch attack or something else?

How do we want to handle the effect on metals?  Does a certain amount of hit point damage to the item?  Or does that lead to too much bookkeeping?


----------



## Shade (Oct 2, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> I have a picture of a bowl of jello jumping around on a cave floor.




I always thought a "jello mold" that combines the worst aspects of oozes and molds would be funny.    



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> I'd say make this an ooze, aim for CR1 probably.




Agreed.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> So the attack does 1d6 acid damage; should this be a touch attack or something else?
> 
> How do we want to handle the effect on metals?  Does a certain amount of hit point damage to the item?  Or does that lead to too much bookkeeping?




We can probably model both of these off some of the existing oozes...

Acid (Ex): A gray ooze secretes a digestive acid that quickly dissolves organic material and metal, but not stone. Any melee hit or constrict attack deals acid damage. Armor or clothing dissolves and becomes useless immediately unless it succeeds on a DC 16 Reflex save. A metal or wooden weapon that strikes a gray ooze also dissolves immediately unless it succeeds on a DC 16 Reflex save. The save DCs are Constitution-based.

The ooze’s acidic touch deals 16 points of damage per round to wooden or metal objects, but the ooze must remain in contact with the object for 1 full round to deal this damage.

The gray ooze's attack lines:

Attack: Slam +3 melee (1d6+1 plus 1d6 acid)
Full Attack: Slam +3 melee (1d6+1 plus 1d6 acid)

Since they reproduce by splitting, should we borrow this?

Split (Ex): Slashing and piercing weapons deal no damage to a black pudding. Instead the creature splits into two identical puddings, each with half of the original’s current hit points (round down). A pudding with 10 hit points or less cannot be further split and dies if reduced to 0 hit points.


----------



## dhaga (Oct 2, 2007)

If we're going for CR 1, the ooze probably won't be big enough for Split (Ex); though I guess we could drop the minimum hit points to 5, or to be really mean, 2 or 1; one ooze becomes many tiny oozes.


----------



## freyar (Oct 3, 2007)

I'd go with the gray ooze version for the acid, then.  Maybe reduce the slam damage to 1d4+Str bonus?

Maybe allow splitting with 10hp or more, so only advanced acid blobs can split?


----------



## dhaga (Oct 3, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Maybe allow splitting with 10hp or more, so only advanced acid blobs can split?



Good idea.  Better than my mean idea   Hordes of little oozlings slowly devouring adventurers...



> Maybe reduce the slam damage to 1d4+Str bonus?



Sounds good.

Type: Small Ooze
Hit Dice: 3d10 + Con

Stats: Str 14, Dex 8, Con 18, Int -, Wis 1, Cha 1

I know oozes traditionally have abyssimal Dex scores; since these little blobs hop around instead of sliding around, maybe a little better score for them?


----------



## freyar (Oct 4, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> Type: Small Ooze
> Hit Dice: 3d10 + Con
> 
> Stats: Str 14, Dex 8, Con 18, Int -, Wis 1, Cha 1
> ...




That looks reasonable.  Maybe even drop Con a little more due to the increased AC from Dex?


----------



## dhaga (Oct 4, 2007)

Sounds reasonable   Con 16, then? 14? Don't want it _too_ low, or they'll have a hard time making use of their Split ability 

And I agree the grey ooze version of the acid should work fine for this creature.


----------



## freyar (Oct 5, 2007)

Con 16 seems good to me.


----------



## dhaga (Oct 5, 2007)

potential Armor Class: 13 (+3 natural, +1 size, -1 Dex)
Speed 20 ft?

So far:

*Type:* Small Ooze
*Hit Dice:* 3d10 + 9 (25 hp)
*Initiative:* -1
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +1 / -1
*Attack:* Slam +4 melee (1d4+2)
*Full Attack:* Slam +4 melee (1d4+2)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft / 5 ft
*Special Attacks:* Acid
*Special Qualities:* -
*Saves:* Fort +4, Ref +0, Will -4
*Abilities:* Str 14, Dex 8, Con 16, Int -, Wis 1, Cha 1
*Skills:* -
*Feats:* -
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Environment:* Any subterranean
*Organization:* Solitary or Pack (2-8)
*Challenge Rating:* 1
*Treasure:* none
*Alignment:* Neutral
*Advancement:* 4-6 HD (Small)


----------



## dhaga (Oct 5, 2007)

From the original text:


> The acid is not strong enough to continue burning flesh after its strike, but metals are in great danger.




We can actually use that exact line, probably:
*Acid (Ex):* An acid blob's acid is not strong enough to continue burning flesh after its strike, but metals are in great danger.  A metal weapon that strikes a gray ooze dissolves immediately unless it succeeds on a DC 14 Reflex save.  The save is Constitution-based.

An acid blob's touch deals X (x=14? 10?) points of damage per round to metal objects, but the blob must remain in contact with the object for 1 full round to deal this damage.

Also:
*Split (Ex):* Slashing and piercing weapons deal no damage to an acid blob. Instead the creature splits into two identical blobs, each with half of the original’s current hit points (round down). A blob with 10 hit points or less cannot be further split and dies if reduced to 0 hit points.


----------



## freyar (Oct 6, 2007)

This is looking pretty good.  Maybe 1d10 points of damage to metal objects, ignoring hardness.


----------



## Shade (Oct 8, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.

Note that acid damage = Reflex save DC to avoid.  So 14 points of acid damage in this case.


----------



## dhaga (Oct 9, 2007)

Stat block and combat look good.  Looks like we just need text.  Any other comments?  I'll try and whip up some text, but feel free to beat me to it


----------



## freyar (Oct 10, 2007)

You left "gray ooze" in the acid description, but looks good otherwise.


----------



## Shade (Oct 10, 2007)

Excised the gray ooze leftovers.


----------



## dhaga (Oct 10, 2007)

Proposed text:
These small blobs live in dark, subterranean places, and are composed of acidic goo.  They are usually green, but darker varieties have been reported.  Acid blobs are scavengers, and will consume anything except stone.  However, they prefer organic matter, and will pursue living targets until death or lunch.  Unlike many of its ilk, acid blobs do not move on the wall or ceiling; they just hop along the ground.

These small blobs are usually found in groups, since new acid blobs are created by separating from their host and then joining together.  This is a purely instinctual occurrence since the blobs have no intelligence.


----------



## Shade (Oct 10, 2007)

Looks great!

I added your flavor text and an italicized description. 

Are we finished?


----------



## freyar (Oct 10, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Are we finished?




Other than tactics, I'd say so.  For tactics, maybe:

Acid blobs attack instinctually, simply slamming whatever opponent is closest.


----------



## Shade (Oct 10, 2007)

That'll work!


----------



## dhaga (Oct 10, 2007)

Looks done to me!  Next?


----------



## Shade (Oct 10, 2007)

*Elemental, Miniature*
TYPE: Air Earth Fire Water
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any Land Any Land Any Land Any Water/
Shore
FREQUENCY: Uncommon Uncommon Uncommon Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Pack Pack Pack Pack
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any Any Any Any
DIET: Air Earth, Any Any
Metal, Com- Liquid
Gem bustible
INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1) Animal (1) Animal (1) Animal (1)
TREASURE: Nil Nil Nil Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral Neutral Neutral Neutral
NO. APPEARING 2-12 2-8 2-12 3-18
ARMOR CLASS: 6 6 7 7
MOVEMENT: 14 6 12 10
HIT DICE: 1 1+3 1+2 1+1
THACØ: 19 19 19 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 1 1 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-3 1-4 2-5 1-4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil Nil Nil Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See Below See Below See Below See Below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil Nil Nil Nil
SIZE: S (2’) S (2’) S (2’) S (2’)
MORALE: Average (10) Average (10) Average (10) Average (10)
EXP. POINT VALUE: 35 65 35 35

It is not known how miniature elementals came into existence.  They used to be extremely rare, and were considered to be myth by most scholars, but recent reports of sightings and attacks by the elementals have increased.  Some conjecture that they are small bits of larger elementals which broke free, and now roam of their own accord.

The miniature elementals are all less than two feet tall and look like their element. Fire
elementals are small moving balls of flame, air elementals are little whirlwinds, earth
elementals are moving rocks, and water elementals are bouncing blobs of cohesive water.

Whatever their origin, the miniature elementals have become a large nuisance in some areas. Although seldom powerful enough to kill an alert warrior, and not intelligent enough to plan
attacks against weak opponents, the elementals are not to be ignored. Often traveling in packs, they can be dangerous when surrounding a lone target.  Rumors are also circulating about larger versions of the miniature water elemental attacking merchant ships, though this is yet to be confirmed.

As of the date of this writing, no mage has been able to purposely conjure a miniature
elemental. Perhaps they are too small to be grabbed from their respective elemental planes
by magical snares. 

Combat: All miniature elementals attack by launching their body at their targets. In addition, earth elementals launch bits of stone at the target. None of them are powerful enough to cause any extra damage — for instance, a blow by the fire elemental does not require any saving throw to keep items from burning. 

All of the elementals have special defenses against certain types of attacks. Water-based
spells do 1 point less of damage per die (minimum 1 point per die) against miniature water
elementals and fire-based spells have the same damage reduction against miniature fire elementals.  Attacks by cutting weapons do one-half damage to miniature earth elementals and lastly, magical weapons (or spells) are needed to damage the miniature air elemental.

Source: Al-Qadim: Genie's Curse, p. 53.


----------



## Shade (Oct 10, 2007)

These guys should be fairly simple. We can downsize Small elementals to Tiny to determine most of their stats.


----------



## dhaga (Oct 10, 2007)

Yep, and with those stats, the rest should be fairly easy.

They will all have slam attacks, and the earth variety will have a ranged attack.

The only major difference between them otherwise will be the Special Qualities.
Special Qualities (Air): DR 20/magic 
Special Qualities (Earth): DR 10/piercing or bludgeoning
Special Qualities (Fire): Fire Resist 10 (or Immune to Fire...)
Special Qualities (Water): Water (Cold?) Resist 10 (or Immune to Water / Cold...)

Organization will be Pack (2-12) -- Air
Pack (2-8) -- Earth
Pack (2-12) -- Fire
Pack (3-18) -- Water


----------



## Shade (Oct 11, 2007)

Downsizing the elementals yields the following pertinent stats:

Air Elemental
Str 6, Dex 19, Con 10, Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 11, slam 1d3

Earth Elemental
Str 13, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 11, slam 1d4

Fire Elemental
Str 6, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 11, slam 1d3 plus 1d3 fire

Water Elemental
Str 10, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 11, slam 1d4

We also know that Int will be 1 for all of them.


----------



## freyar (Oct 15, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Downsizing the elementals yields the following pertinent stats:
> 
> Air Elemental
> Str 6, Dex 19, Con 10, Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 11, slam 1d3
> ...




Doing this would make the most sense to me, but it differs some from the original (at least imagining that the AC is due to Dex and looking at the slams).  Do we want to stick with the original really closely, or do you agree that we should use the above with Int -> 1?


----------



## Shade (Oct 15, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Doing this would make the most sense to me, but it differs some from the original (at least imagining that the AC is due to Dex and looking at the slams).  Do we want to stick with the original really closely, or do you agree that we should use the above with Int -> 1?




In this case, I think fitting them in with the existing elementals is probably the better option.


----------



## Mortis (Oct 16, 2007)

I must have missed this thread - the miniature elementals remind me of the Mystaran fundamentals - conversions of which you can see from here.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Oct 16, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> I must have missed this thread - the miniature elementals remind me of the Mystaran fundamentals - conversions of which you can see from here.




The fundies sprung to my mind as well.


----------



## freyar (Oct 16, 2007)

Wow, are these basically done already, also?


----------



## Shade (Oct 16, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Wow, are these basically done already, also?




I haven't even Homebrewed them yet!


----------



## freyar (Oct 16, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I haven't even Homebrewed them yet!




Well, we have the stats, attacks, etc.  Unless we want to argue about SQs.  Probably CR1 is reasonable for these (or 1/2?).


----------



## dhaga (Oct 16, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I haven't even Homebrewed them yet!




Quite speedy of us, then, eh?


----------



## freyar (Oct 17, 2007)

*Mini Elementals*

Just to save you some time, Shade, I went ahead and did the first stat block for you. 

*Miniature Air Elemental*
Tiny Elemental (Air)
Hit Dice: 1d8 (4 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: fly 40 ft (8 squares) (perfect)
Armor Class: 16 (+2 size, +4 Dex), touch 16, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-10
Attack: Slam +4 melee (1d3-2)
Full Attack: Slam +4 melee (1d3-2)
Space/Reach: 2.5 ft/0 ft
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: DR 10/magic, Darkvision 60 ft, Elemental Traits
Saves: Fort +0, Ref +0, Will +6
Abilities: Str 6, Dex 19, Con 10, Int 1, Wis 11, Cha 11
Skills: Hide +4
Feats: Weapon Finesse
Environment: Any Land
Organization: Pack (2d6)
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 2-3 HD (Tiny)
Level Adjustment: -

I adjusted the DR down a bit to account for the low CR, though maybe we want to make it DR5.  Skills, Feats, and CR are still up for discussion, I guess.  So not quite done.


----------



## Shade (Oct 17, 2007)

Thanks.  I've begun adding them to Homebrews (each as an individual entry as that's how they'll go into the CC).

Air
Earth
Fire
Water

A few things:

I think we should add back the bonus feats the Small elementals possess in most cases (Improved Init and Weapon Finesse for the air elemental).   This gives it one feat back.  The Small has Flyby Attack, which still seems appropriate for the mini.



			
				Al-Qadim: Genie's Curse said:
			
		

> The miniature elementals are all less than two feet tall and look like their element. Fire elementals are small moving balls of flame, *air elementals are little whirlwinds*, earth elementals are moving rocks, and water elementals are bouncing blobs of cohesive water.




Should we retaing the whirlwind ability, downsized to Tiny?

How about air mastery?   Keep or discard?


----------



## freyar (Oct 17, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I think we should add back the bonus feats the Small elementals possess in most cases (Improved Init and Weapon Finesse for the air elemental).   This gives it one feat back.  The Small has Flyby Attack, which still seems appropriate for the mini.




Sounds good.



> Should we retaing the whirlwind ability, downsized to Tiny?
> 
> How about air mastery?   Keep or discard?




Hmmm, I suppose it depends if we really are just making tiny elementals or not.  (These should also be different than the fundamentals, I guess.)  My thought from the original text is that they are really just blobs of elemental matter that fly, hop, or swim around but don't really have any other abilities.  That would make them even weaker than the fundamentals and something a bit different than normal elementals.  

But I don't have an objection just to downsizing the Small elementals, either.


----------



## dhaga (Oct 17, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> My thought from the original text is that they are really just blobs of elemental matter that fly, hop, or swim around but don't really have any other abilities.



This was my impression, as well.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> But I don't have an objection just to downsizing the Small elementals, either.



Neither do I; we're already moving down that track, anyhow


----------



## Shade (Oct 17, 2007)

The fundamentals seem more like flocks of elemental "birds", whereas these are tiny chunks of elementals.   

We can certainly leave off most, if not all, the special abilities of the greater elementals.   

I'd keep the bonus feats, though, as they help differentiate them a bit from one another, without burn, drench, vortex, etc.


----------



## freyar (Oct 17, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> We can certainly leave off most, if not all, the special abilities of the greater elementals.
> 
> I'd keep the bonus feats, though, as they help differentiate them a bit from one another, without burn, drench, vortex, etc.




That sounds reasonable.


----------



## Shade (Oct 17, 2007)

In that case, we just have a few things to address:



> As of the date of this writing, no mage has been able to purposely conjure a miniature
> elemental. Perhaps they are too small to be grabbed from their respective elemental planes
> by magical snares.




Should we give them a "resist summons" ability, or simply leave this as flavor text?



> Combat: All miniature elementals attack by launching their body at their targets. In addition, earth elementals launch bits of stone at the target.




We need to writeup this ability.



> Water-based spells do 1 point less of damage per die (minimum 1 point per die) against miniature water elementals.




Since next to no spells deal water-based damage, should we extend this to cold?  Or maybe make it a +X bonus on saving throws against spells with the water descriptor?


----------



## dhaga (Oct 17, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Should we give them a "resist summons" ability, or simply leave this as flavor text?




Resist Summons (Ex): Miniature Elementals may make a Will save to avoid being summoned.  The Will save has the DC of the spell being used to summon the miniature elemental.  If the save is successful, the spell fails.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> We need to writeup this ability.



We could just give the earth variant a ranged attack.  If you want it written up as a separate ability, we could call it "Pebbles".

Pebbles (Ex): a miniature earth elemental can launch bits of stone at its opponents.  These small stones have a maximum range of 30 feet and deal 1d3+1 points of damage on a successful hit.




			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Since next to no spells deal water-based damage, should we extend this to cold?  Or maybe make it a +X bonus on saving throws against spells with the water descriptor?



I vote for the +X bonus on saving throws against spells with the water descriptor.
Say +2?


----------



## freyar (Oct 17, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Should we give them a "resist summons" ability, or simply leave this as flavor text?



Uhoh, I actually prefer leaving this as flavor text.  I don't see that ability as really "making sense" for these to have.



> We need to writeup this ability.




Dhaga's writeup is ok, just add no range increment.



> Since next to no spells deal water-based damage, should we extend this to cold?  Or maybe make it a +X bonus on saving throws against spells with the water descriptor?




I also agree to give a save bonus vs water descriptor spells.  +2 is ok for me.


----------



## Shade (Oct 17, 2007)

On review, I think I agree that we should keep the unsummonable nature of them to flavor text.

How's this revison?

Pebbles (Ex): A miniature earth elemental can launch bits of stone at its opponents. These small stones have a maximum range of 30 feet (no range increment) and deal 1d3+1 points of bludgeoning damage on a successful hit.

I also think the mini earth elemental needs either earth glide or a burrow speed (even a really slow one) to explain how it can get around on the Elemental Plane of Earth.

How's this for the water elemental?

Water Resiliency (Ex):  A miniature water elemental has a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and effects with the water descriptor or originating from a creature with the water subtype.


----------



## dhaga (Oct 17, 2007)

Keeping the unsummonable nature as flavor text is fine with me 

The Pebbles revision looks good.

I agree the miniature earth elemental needs a way to move through the earth.  Earth Glide would make more sense than burrow, I think.

Water Resiliency looks good.


----------



## Mortis (Oct 18, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> The Pebbles revision looks good.



Phew! I was expecting to read that she was no longer the daughter of Fred and Wilma.   

Actually everything looks good.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Oct 18, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Phew! I was expecting to read that she was no longer the daughter of Fred and Wilma.




In 4e she's the son of Barney and Betty.  Having two similarly-themed creatures was redundant, so Pebbles "killled Bam-Bam and took his stuff".


----------



## dhaga (Oct 19, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> In 4e she's the son of Barney and Betty.  Having two similarly-themed creatures was redundant, so Pebbles "killled Bam-Bam and took his stuff".



Haha.  That little assassin...


----------



## Shade (Oct 19, 2007)

Finishing up...

Earth and Water each need 1 feat and a weight.   The Small versions of each have Power Attack, which can't benefit these 1-HD creatures.  

Small Earth elemental:  4 ft. 80 lb. 
Small Water elemental:  4 ft. 34 lb. 

Oddly, the mini water elemental did not have a swim speed!  The small water elemental's speed is 20 ft. (4 squares), swim 90 ft.   I'd say a swim speed of at least 60 feet is appropriate.  Thoughts?


----------



## dhaga (Oct 19, 2007)

Earth:
Feat: Toughness?  Weapon Focus (slam)? Point blank shot as a bonus feat?
2 ft. tall, 40 lbs

Water:
Feat: not sure.  Weapon Focus (slam)?
Swim speed of 60 feet sounds good.
2 ft. tall, 15 lbs


----------



## freyar (Oct 19, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> Earth:
> Feat: Toughness?  Weapon Focus (slam)? Point blank shot as a bonus feat?
> 2 ft. tall, 40 lbs




I'd go with Toughness and PBS as a bonus.  Somehow I think an earth elemental should have more hp. 



> Water:
> Feat: not sure.  Weapon Focus (slam)?
> Swim speed of 60 feet sounds good.
> 2 ft. tall, 15 lbs




I think Weapon focus (slam) is good, and I agree on the swim speed.


----------



## Shade (Oct 19, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> I'd go with Toughness and PBS as a bonus.  Somehow I think an earth elemental should have more hp.




Weapon Focus is out.  That +0 BAB prevents many feats from being taken.

Toughness and PBS (B) is fine.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> I think Weapon focus (slam) is good, and I agree on the swim speed.




Since WF is out, Toughness here as well?

I like the suggested weights, dhaga.


----------



## dhaga (Oct 19, 2007)

Blobs of water are tough to damage (for different reasons than chunks of soil, of course), but Toughness sounds good for them, too.


----------



## Shade (Oct 19, 2007)

Sounds good.

One last thing...

Since they are intelligent enough for speech, shall we give them languages?  Or perhaps just state something like  "A miniature earth elemental understands Terran, but is unable to speak."


----------



## dhaga (Oct 19, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> "A miniature earth elemental understands Terran, but is unable to speak."




I think that would be the way to go, giving them understanding of their respective elemental language.


----------



## Shade (Oct 19, 2007)

I updated all of them:

Air
Earth
Fire
Water

Are we finished?


----------



## dhaga (Oct 19, 2007)

They all look good to me.  I like these little guys.  Almost cute, in a minorly destructive sort of way.


----------



## freyar (Oct 20, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> They all look good to me.  I like these little guys.  Almost cute, in a minorly destructive sort of way.




I agree, these look done.  But the acid blobs still seem cuter, in a Pathfinder goblin kind of way.


----------



## Shade (Oct 22, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> I agree, these look done.  But the acid blobs still seem cuter, in a Pathfinder goblin kind of way.




Indeed!


----------



## Shade (Oct 22, 2007)

Here's the second-to-last of the new monsters from Genie's Curse.   This basically looks like a dire rat advanced to Medium, eh?

Rat, Giant Zakharan
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Subterranean
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Pack
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Animal- (1)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-12
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: 14
HIT DICE: 4
THACØ: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (4’-7’)
MORALE: (10)
EXP. POINT VALUE: 175

The giant Zakharan rat is a cousin to the giant rat with the main difference being size.  Zakharan rats are huge, with lengths of up to seven feet (not including the tail). They are just as filthy, disease ridden, ferocious, and fleet of foot as their smaller cousins. Their fur is generally brownish and their eyes a deep red.

Combat: Giant Zakharan rats are annoying creatures which rush into a fight with extreme quickness and then maddeningly gnaw and claw until they are killed. It is rare to find a single rat; they tend to roam in packs.  While generally easy to kill, there are stories of giant rats closing in and killing a hero weakened after the hero has just defeated a major foe.

Unlike other rats, this variety is not particularly afraid of flames.  Many tales exist of  adventurers expecting torches or bonfires to keep them safe from the rats only to be viciously attacked while unprepared.

Ecology: The giant Zakharan rat tends to live in dank underground areas like dungeons. It can slip through tight openings as the creature’s skeletal system compresses drastically. The rats are usually found in groups, but it is very rare to find more than a dozen in any one place. Their diet is anything and everything which they encounter that is, or was once, living.

Source: Al-Qadim: Genie's Curse, p. 55.


----------



## freyar (Oct 22, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Here's the second-to-last of the new monsters from Genie's Curse.   This basically looks like a dire rat advanced to Medium, eh?




And missing the filth fever bite.  But yeah.


----------



## Shade (Oct 22, 2007)

> They are just as filthy, disease ridden, ferocious, and fleet of foot as their smaller cousins.




I suppose you could argue either way for the diseased bite.  The standard rat doesn't have it, but perhaps the dire rat only does because it's bigger.  And these guys are bigger yet.

Here's a dire rat scaled up to Medium and accounting for some of the other minor differences from the original text.  I left the filth fever bite in, but we can drop it if all of you want to do so.

Giant Zakharan Rat
Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 4d8+8 (26 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), climb 20 ft.
Armor Class: 14 (+2 Dex, +2 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+5
Attack: Bite +5 melee (1d6+3 plus disease)
Full Attack: Bite +5 melee (1d6+3 plus disease)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Disease
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +3
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
Skills: Climb +10, Hide +3, Listen +4, Move Silently +3, Spot +4, Swim +10 (3 more ranks to distribute)
Feats: Alertness, 1 more
Environment: Any underground
Organization: Solitary or pack (2–12)
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 5–8 HD (Medium); 6–12 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: --

A dire rat can grow to be up to 4 feet long and weigh over 50 pounds.

Combat

Disease (Ex): Filth fever—bite, Fortitude DC 14, incubation period 1d3 days, damage 1d3 Dex and 1d3 Con. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Skills: Dire rats have a +8 racial bonus on Swim checks. Dire rats have a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened.

Dire rats use their Dexterity modifier for Climb and Swim checks.


----------



## dhaga (Oct 22, 2007)

I vote that it keeps the diseased bite.


----------



## freyar (Oct 22, 2007)

Ehh, we're friends of RBDMs everywhere -- leave filth fever in. 

What other differences were there between this and an advanced dire rat?


----------



## dhaga (Oct 22, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> What other differences were there between this and an advanced dire rat?




Not much that I can see, except for some flavor: "Unlike other rats, this variety is not particularly afraid of flames. Many tales exist of adventurers expecting torches or bonfires to keep them safe from the rats only to be viciously attacked while unprepared."


----------



## Shade (Oct 23, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> Not much that I can see, except for some flavor: "Unlike other rats, this variety is not particularly afraid of flames. Many tales exist of adventurers expecting torches or bonfires to keep them safe from the rats only to be viciously attacked while unprepared."




I'm not really sure we can do much with this.   None of the other rats mention a fear of fire, and I don't think any fire-based fear effects exist.


----------



## Mortis (Oct 23, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'm not really sure we can do much with this.   None of the other rats mention a fear of fire, and I don't think any fire-based fear effects exist.



Well attacks, skill check can have a morale bonus so why not give them a morale penalty when exposed to fire?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## dhaga (Oct 23, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Well attacks, skill check can have a morale bonus so why not give them a morale penalty when exposed to fire?




Except the text states that UNLIKE other rats, they are not afraid of fire.  Their bonus would be no penalty, if other rats had a penalty...

I agree, Shade -- I don't think there is much to be done with it, either, but I think it should stay in as flavor text.


----------



## Mortis (Oct 24, 2007)

Ah! - didn't actually read the original text - just Shade's comment.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Oct 24, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.

We need another feat, a CR, and to assign the additional 3 skill ranks.


----------



## Mortis (Oct 24, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> We need another feat, a CR, and to assign the additional 3 skill ranks.



Track

CR 2

Listen +1, Move Silently +1, Spot +1

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Oct 24, 2007)

Great.   All done?


----------



## freyar (Oct 24, 2007)

Looks done to me.


----------



## dhaga (Oct 24, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Looks done to me.



Agreed.


----------



## Shade (Oct 25, 2007)

Here's the last one from Genie's Curse...

*Copper Automaton, Miniature*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any/Ruins
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Constant
DIET: None
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1 (20%)
3-18 (80%)
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 7
HIT DICE: 3 + 3
THACØ: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4 / 1-4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: None
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spell
Immunities
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (3’-5’)
MORALE: Fearless (20)
EXP. POINT VALUE: 120

Miniature copper automatons are very similar to their larger counterpart, the copper automaton.  They are magical statues of copper and bronze with numerous levers and gears churning inside of them all held together by magical enchantments.

As they are creations, automatons look quite different from one another. Some have blocky bodies and long arms while others look more like small human knights. All of them are corroding and have blank eyes.

The miniature versions are not as well made as the larger automatons and thus cannot manipulate objects very well.  However, a simple task like pulling a switch or turning a door knob is possible.

Combat: Miniature copper automatons attack with their two metallic hands, clubbing or pinching with fair strength for 1 to 4 points of damage per limb. They do not share the heat-generating abilities of their larger versions.

The automatons can only be healed, or repaired, by the combined efforts of a wizard of at least 6th-level and a well-trained smith. With this team, the automaton recovers 1 to 8 hit points per day. Once killed, or destroyed, the automaton may not be rebuilt.

Habitat/Society: Miniature copper automatons are the creations of wizards not powerful enough to create larger automatons, or not desiring to pay the additional expenses for them. Upon inception, and changeable at any time thereafter, the mage gives the mass of clinking parts a simple task to carry out. Some are used to stand guard over the tombs of  their dead masters, others patrol dungeons warding against intruders, and some are used as slave labor doing the most simple, but laborious work. They perform any service within their limited mental grasp.

The method of forming a miniature automaton is not a well-kept secret. Any wizard of at least 6th-level with 2,000 gold pieces can build one. The whole process takes about two weeks, and requires copper ore, iron gears, lead counterweights and a gemstone worth at least 500 gold pieces to center the wizard’s magical energies. Also needed is half of an oil of slipperiness vial to keep the gears turning. 

Ecology: Miniature Copper Automatons need no food, no rest, no external energy source and no loving encouragement.  They are completely unnatural, with no niche in the ecological balance.

Source: Al-Qadim: Genie's Curse, p. 49.


----------



## freyar (Oct 25, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Combat: Miniature copper automatons attack with their two metallic hands, clubbing or pinching with fair strength for 1 to 4 points of damage per limb. They do not share the heat-generating abilities of their larger versions.




I'll have to go look at the regular automatons, but I'd guess this bit means we should aim for STR 10-11 with a slam or claw attack of 1d4.


----------



## Shade (Oct 25, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> I'll have to go look at the regular automatons, but I'd guess this bit means we should aim for STR 10-11 with a slam or claw attack of 1d4.




Note that the standard copper automaton has yet to be converted as well.


----------



## dhaga (Oct 25, 2007)

Medium Construct
Armor Class 15 (+5 natural)
Full Attack: 2 slams +x melee (1d4)
Abilities: Str 11, Dex 10, Con -, Int 5, Wis 11, Cha 1
The stat block states spell immunities, but I can't see where it says what those immunities are.  Could give them "immune to any spell that allows spell resistance".


----------



## Shade (Oct 26, 2007)

Bonus conversion time!

I think in order to best covert these critters we'll need to convert the regular copper automaton either first or in tandem.

*Copper Automaton*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Ruins
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Constant
DIET: None
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1 (90%) or 3-18 (10%)
ARMOR CLASS: 3
MOVEMENT: 9
HIT DICE: 6
THACØ: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6/ 1-6 or 2-12/2-12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Heat
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spell Immunities
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M
MORALE: Fearless (20)
EXP. POINT VALUE: 650

Copper automatons are magical statues of copper and bronze with hidden weights, levers,  and clockwork gears, all of which are held together by enchantments that cause them to move and attack under particular circumstances.

Copper automatons are the results of artifice and skill, and as such, these human figures of copper, iron, and bronze reflect the whims and preferences of their makers.  Some are tall and long-legged, others short and stocky, but all share the same blank eyes and corroding surfaces.  Their metal plates are sometimes embellished with silver or golden inlays.  They are usually sculpted to resemble warriors in armor, but they may just as easily look like nobles, peasants, or even humanoid monsters.

Slow but limber, their movements are regulated by the orders given to them by their creators.  Their mechanical limbs respond quickly and powerfully, and their articulation is almost as good as a human's--their fingers can grasp, their waists can bend, and their walk is even, if not as fast as a human's.

Combat: Copper automatons attack with their fists, which normally strike twice for 1d6 points of clubbing damage.  After a single round of combat, however, their fists glow from internal heat and their stunningly powerful blows now also do burning damage for a total of 2d6 points of damage per strike.  Creatures immune to heat continue to suffer only 1d6 from the force of the blows themselves.

Copper automatons are capable of handling weapons, and some powerful creators give their copper automatons magical weaponry to use in combat.  These are almost always matched sets of scimitars, daggers, maces, or small axes.  They may make two attacks per rounds with these weapons without penalty, though the attacks cannot be split among opponents.  They can heat iron weapons to a red-hot glow in two rounds; for the first two rounds their weapons do normal damage, but each round thereafter they add an additional 1d6 damage to each blow.

Copper automatons can only be healed through repair of their metal components and the replenishment of their enchantments.  A wizard and a smith working together can heal a copper automaton of 1d8 points of damage per day. If an automaton is ever brought to 0 hp, it cannot be rebuilt, except from scratch.

Habitat/Society: Copper automatons are the creations of wizards and aartificers and are intricate, clocklike gearworks interwoven with magic spells to create creatures more mobile and less awkward than golems.  They are often used as slave labor in smithies, construction projects, and water works, though the magically-armed ones often act as guardians for valuables left in wizards' homes while they travel the world.  Their sleepless, unetiring, uncomplaining labor can bring wonders into existence in short periods of time or in unlikely places.  Palaces in the desert, clearned and carefully tended plots in the jungle, or terraced gardens in the mountians built and tended by copper automatons have all been reported by travelers.

The secret of createing copper automatons is known only to a few, and they are reluctant to share their knowledge. It requires a mage of at least 9th-level and a minimum of 10,000 gp to create a copper automaton. The whole process takes at least two months and involves the use of magma, copper ore, iron gears, and lead counterweights, and at least a single diamond as the source of the copper automaton's magical heat channels.  In addition to its purely physical framework, magical ingredients are required to weave the needed enchantments around the physical chassis.  These additional requirements include oil of slipperiness (for the gears) and the blood of a salamander or fire snake--even when they are available, the price of these ingredients varies from dear to exorbitant, and this expense may double the cost of an automaton for a mage unable to produce or obtain the ingredients himself. 

Ecology: Copper Automatons require no food, no rest, no external energy source. They are entirely unnatural creatures, and have no role in natural ecologies.

The secret of creating copper automatons is said to have been granted to human mages by the efreet, who hoped that they could in time take control of the automatons to establish their own rulership of human lands.  The seclusion of copper automatons from most civilized places has negated this plan.

Source:  MC13 (1992)


----------



## dhaga (Oct 26, 2007)

It's funny that the miniature and the standard are both size "M".
I would say the standard should be Medium Constructs, and the Minis should be Small Constructs.

We can do the standards first; they are more complex than the minis.
Medium Construct
Speed: 20 ft. (cannot run)
Abilities: Str 15, Dex 10, Con -, Int 5, Wis 11, Cha 1
Armor Class: 18 (+8 natural)
Full Attack: 2 slams +x melee (x+2); or 2 scimitars +x melee (x+2) (or 2 axes, or 2 daggers, etc; I would say we should include one weapon in the attack line, and leave the flavor text to describe they can be armed with different weapons).

Heated Strike (Ex): on the round after a Copper Automaton enters combat, its fists become heated, glowing a cherry red color.  Thereafter, all slams deal an additional 1d6 points of fire damage.  If the Copper Automaton is wielding a weapon, the weapon becomes heated on the round after its fists become heated.  Thereafter, all weapon attacks deal an additional 1d6 points of fire damage.


----------



## Shade (Oct 31, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.

I dropped the "can't run" bit as golems no longer have this limitation in 3.5.

I changed AC to 17 as that is a direct translation per the conversion guide of its 2e AC.

I went with the rest of what dhaga suggested.


----------



## freyar (Nov 5, 2007)

Should we give it some kind of super two-weapon fighting so that it can treat any two weapons as light and/or get rid of the -2 penalty (that is usually the best you can do with two weapons)?  Or do you just want to give it Two-weapon fighting as a bonus feat?


----------



## dhaga (Nov 5, 2007)

Allowing them to treat any one-handed weapon as light is a fun idea.

AbilityName (Ex): Copper Automatons treat any one-handed simple or martial weapon as light, for purposes of determining two-handed fighting penalties.


----------



## Shade (Nov 6, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> Allowing them to treat any one-handed weapon as light is a fun idea.
> 
> AbilityName (Ex): Copper Automatons treat any one-handed simple or martial weapon as light, for purposes of determining two-handed fighting penalties.




Sounds good.   Maybe call it "Clockwork Balance"?


----------



## dhaga (Nov 6, 2007)

Clockwork Balance sounds fine to me.  I can't come up with anything else, let alone anything better 

I opt for straightforward feats.  Great Fortitude to make them a little heartier, perhaps, Power Attack, and 1 more?


----------



## freyar (Nov 6, 2007)

Well, there's always Cleave if we go the Power Attack route.  I think Two-Weapon Fighting should be a bonus feat, and that would open up some other options, too.


----------



## Shade (Nov 6, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Well, there's always Cleave if we go the Power Attack route.  I think Two-Weapon Fighting should be a bonus feat, and that would open up some other options, too.




I like TWF as a bonus feat.   I'm not a big fan of Cleave for these fellas.   Maybe Improved Sunder?


----------



## freyar (Nov 6, 2007)

Hmmm, these don't actually qualify for Imp. TWF anyway, so Improved Sunder seems good.


----------



## dhaga (Nov 6, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Hmmm, these don't actually qualify for Imp. TWF anyway, so Improved Sunder seems good.



Agreed on Improved Sunder, with TWF as a bonus feat.


----------



## Shade (Nov 6, 2007)

9 skill ranks.

Listen 4, Spot 5?

Or just Spot 9?

(This assumes guardian role, of course)


----------



## freyar (Nov 6, 2007)

Tough call.  I guess it's better as a general rule to put all the ranks in one basket, so just spot.


----------



## Shade (Nov 6, 2007)

We also out to consider replacing Great Fortitude with Alertness.   It's more likely that these fellas will need to spot intruders than make a Fort save against the small number of effects that affect constructs.


----------



## dhaga (Nov 6, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> We also out to consider replacing Great Fortitude with Alertness.   It's more likely that these fellas will need to spot intruders than make a Fort save against the small number of effects that affect constructs.



True.  Let's keep all the skill ranks in Spot, and give them Alertness.


----------



## Shade (Nov 7, 2007)

CR?



> The secret of createing copper automatons is known only to a few, and they are reluctant to share their knowledge. It requires a mage of at least 9th-level and a minimum of 10,000 gp to create a copper automaton. The whole process takes at least two months and involves the use of magma, copper ore, iron gears, and lead counterweights, and at least a single diamond as the source of the copper automaton's magical heat channels. In addition to its purely physical framework, magical ingredients are required to weave the needed enchantments around the physical chassis. These additional requirements include oil of slipperiness (for the gears) and the blood of a salamander or fire snake--even when they are available, the price of these ingredients varies from dear to exorbitant, and this expense may double the cost of an automaton for a mage unable to produce or obtain the ingredients himself.




The 6 HD equine golem costs 20,000 gp.
The 8 HD junk golem costs 9,000 gp.
The 9 HD flesh golem costs 20,000 gp.

So the original 10,000 gp might still work.  Or we can make it 10,000 gp plus the cost of special ingredients (oil/salve of slipperiness costs 1,000 gp, but we might as well just make grease a prereq spell instead).

Craft DCs should be 13-15.


----------



## dhaga (Nov 7, 2007)

CR 3? 4?

10,000 gp base, plus special ingredients -- diamond worth at least 1000 gp, plus blood of a salamander or fire snake.  Not sure what the blood should cost -- set a price or leave it up to the DM?

I agree with making grease a prereq spell.  Heat Metal, as well.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 7, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> -- set a price or leave it up to the DM?



Leave it up to the Dm - its much more fun to make the players quest for an item rather than buying it off the shelf.



> I agree with making grease a prereq spell.  Heat Metal, as well.



I have no problems with either suggestion.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## dhaga (Nov 7, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Leave it up to the Dm - its much more fun to make the players quest for an item rather than buying it off the shelf.



Agreed


----------



## Shade (Nov 7, 2007)

How's this?  I added cat's grace to the mix to account for the clockwork balance.

CONSTRUCTION

A copper automaton is crafted from 500 pounds of magma, copper ore, iron gears, and lead counterweights, and requires a 1,000 gp diamond as the focus for its magical heat channels.  In addition, the blood of a salamander or fire snake is needed to provide the magical heat.  The costs of these ingredients can vary widely, assuming they can even be found.  Assembling the body requires a DC 15 Craft (metalworking?) check.

CL 9th; Craft Construct, cat's grace, grease, heat metal, caster must be at least 9th level; Price 10,000 gp; Cost 4,500 gp + 400 XP.


----------



## freyar (Nov 7, 2007)

Looks fine to me.


----------



## dhaga (Nov 7, 2007)

Looks good, Shade.  Craft (Metalworking) is fine.


----------



## Shade (Nov 7, 2007)

I noticed both the standard and mini copper automaton have this line "SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spell Immunities".  However, the neither's description explains what spells in particular to which they have immunity.

Suggestions?

I'd say fire wouldn't hurt them, due to their heat ability.  Maybe a cold effect negates their heat ability and/or suppresses it for x rounds?


----------



## dhaga (Nov 7, 2007)

Immune to Fire, cold deals no damage, but if they fail a Fort save (standard DC), their Heat ability is suppressed for 1d6 rounds?


----------



## freyar (Nov 8, 2007)

This sounds about right.  I haven't looked at the other 3e automatons yet; do they get immunity to all spells that allow SR like golems?


----------



## Shade (Nov 8, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> This sounds about right.  I haven't looked at the other 3e automatons yet; do they get immunity to all spells that allow SR like golems?




Nope.  The hammerer and pulverizer have no special immunity to magic, nor do they have spell resistance.

Looking at some other golems, a good way to represent the immune to fire/cold negates heat thing would be:

A cold effect suppresses the copper automaton's heat ability for 1d6 rounds, with no saving throw.

A fire effect restores the heat ability, if suppressed, and cures 1 point of damage for each 3 points of damage it would otherwise deal. The copper automaton does not get a saving throw against fire effects.


----------



## freyar (Nov 8, 2007)

I think that's a good way to go with the fire/cold issue.


----------



## Shade (Nov 8, 2007)

Updated in Homebrews.

With addition of immunity to magic, I'd suggest we bump them up to CR 4.   They are sufficiently stronger than some of the other CR 3 golems I checked, although on the low end of CR 4.  Thoughts?


----------



## freyar (Nov 8, 2007)

CR 4 is good enough for me.


----------



## dhaga (Nov 8, 2007)

Looks good.  I agree with CR 4.  500 lbs. is a good weight.


----------



## Shade (Nov 9, 2007)

Updated Homebrews.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 9, 2007)

Looks done

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 9, 2007)

Back to the mini, then...

*Copper Automaton, Miniature*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any/Ruins
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Constant
DIET: None
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1 (20%)
3-18 (80%)
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 7
HIT DICE: 3 + 3
THACØ: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4 / 1-4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: None
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spell
Immunities
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (3’-5’)
MORALE: Fearless (20)
EXP. POINT VALUE: 120

Miniature copper automatons are very similar to their larger counterpart, the copper automaton. They are magical statues of copper and bronze with numerous levers and gears churning inside of them all held together by magical enchantments.

As they are creations, automatons look quite different from one another. Some have blocky bodies and long arms while others look more like small human knights. All of them are corroding and have blank eyes.

The miniature versions are not as well made as the larger automatons and thus cannot manipulate objects very well. However, a simple task like pulling a switch or turning a door knob is possible.

Combat: Miniature copper automatons attack with their two metallic hands, clubbing or pinching with fair strength for 1 to 4 points of damage per limb. They do not share the heat-generating abilities of their larger versions.

The automatons can only be healed, or repaired, by the combined efforts of a wizard of at least 6th-level and a well-trained smith. With this team, the automaton recovers 1 to 8 hit points per day. Once killed, or destroyed, the automaton may not be rebuilt.

Habitat/Society: Miniature copper automatons are the creations of wizards not powerful enough to create larger automatons, or not desiring to pay the additional expenses for them. Upon inception, and changeable at any time thereafter, the mage gives the mass of clinking parts a simple task to carry out. Some are used to stand guard over the tombs of their dead masters, others patrol dungeons warding against intruders, and some are used as slave labor doing the most simple, but laborious work. They perform any service within their limited mental grasp.

The method of forming a miniature automaton is not a well-kept secret. Any wizard of at least 6th-level with 2,000 gold pieces can build one. The whole process takes about two weeks, and requires copper ore, iron gears, lead counterweights and a gemstone worth at least 500 gold pieces to center the wizard’s magical energies. Also needed is half of an oil of slipperiness vial to keep the gears turning. 

Ecology: Miniature Copper Automatons need no food, no rest, no external energy source and no loving encouragement. They are completely unnatural, with no niche in the ecological balance.

Source: Al-Qadim: Genie's Curse, p. 49.


----------



## Shade (Nov 9, 2007)

At 3-5 feet tall, we could just as easily make them Small as Medium, helping to differentiate them from the standard copper automaton.


----------



## freyar (Nov 10, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> At 3-5 feet tall, we could just as easily make them Small as Medium, helping to differentiate them from the standard copper automaton.




Yup, let's do that.  So this should just be a size reduced copper automaton w/o heat, I guess.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 10, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> So this should just be a size reduced copper automaton w/o heat, I guess.



That's fine but I would suggest penalizing their Dex, see below



> The miniature versions are not as well made as the larger automatons and thus cannot manipulate objects very well. However, a simple task like pulling a switch or turning a door knob is possible.




Regards
Mortis


----------



## freyar (Nov 10, 2007)

Right!  So we'll see how this goes -- if I get a chance this weekend, I'll do the downsizing.


----------



## freyar (Nov 11, 2007)

*shrunken copper automaton*

Thought I'd take a first crack at the mini copper automaton by shrinking the regular one to small and reducing HD.  I've also removed heat and clockwork balance and given a Dex penalty as Mortis noted.

Small Construct
Hit Dice: 3d10+10 (26 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 18 (+7 natural, +1 small), touch 11, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/-2
Attack: Slam +2 melee (1d4) 
Full Attack: 2 slams +2 melee (1d4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Construct traits, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to magic, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +0, Will +1
Abilities: Str 11, Dex 8, Con -, Int 5, Wis 11, Cha 1
Skills: Listen +2, Spot +5
Feats: Alertness
Environment: Any land and underground
Organization: Solitary, pair, or gang (3-18)
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 4-6 HD (Small)
Level Adjustment: -

Immunity to Magic (Ex): A copper automaton is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance.

I think I did that right.


----------



## Shade (Nov 12, 2007)

Lets drop the natural armor by 3 to preserve the original AC.

Slams should be +3 (+2 BAB, +1 size)

It gets two feats.

Otherwise, looks good.


----------



## Shade (Nov 12, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.


----------



## freyar (Nov 12, 2007)

I knew I'd miss something!   Power attack is a reasonable 2nd feat.  CR2?  Anything else?


----------



## Shade (Nov 12, 2007)

Construction.


----------



## freyar (Nov 12, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Construction.




Oh, right, the section you have there is from the full-size version.  I guess the full-size version would work if we take the construction cost to be 2000 gp plus a 500 gp gem.  Then just remove the salamander/fire snake blood and heat metal (& maybe cat's grace) and drop CL to 6th.  I think that would put the final price at 5000 gp and cost to construct 2500 gp + 20 XP.


----------



## Shade (Nov 12, 2007)

Sounds good.

Weight 250 pounds?


----------



## freyar (Nov 13, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Weight 250 pounds?




Works for me.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 13, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Power attack is a reasonable 2nd feat.



Except it doesn't qualify for it unless we increase Str to 13.

Weapon Focus (slam) instead?

CR 2 seems reasonable.

<edit>It would certainly make sense to remove Cat's Grace from its construction.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 13, 2007)

Good point.  Weapon Focus should be fine.


----------



## Shade (Nov 13, 2007)

CONSTRUCTION

A copper automaton is crafted from 250 pounds of copper ore, iron gears, and lead counterweights, and requires a 500 gp gem as the focus for its magical energy source. Assembling the body requires a DC x Craft (metalworking) check.

CL 6th; Craft Construct, grease, caster must be at least 9th level; Price 5,000 gp; Cost 2,250 gp + 20 XP.

Since the standard model requires a DC 15 check, maybe 12 or 13 for the miniatures?


----------



## dhaga (Nov 13, 2007)

DC 12 for the check sounds reasonable.


----------



## Shade (Nov 13, 2007)

Updated Homebrews and added flavor text.


----------



## dhaga (Nov 13, 2007)

Slams still need to be dropped to +3 melee.

Otherwise looks good.


----------



## Shade (Nov 13, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> Slams still need to be dropped to +3 melee.




+2 BAB +1 size +1 Weapon Focus


----------



## dhaga (Nov 13, 2007)

Oh, right: weapon focus.   
Well hey, looks done to me, then


----------



## Shade (Nov 13, 2007)

We'll do an incredibly easy one next.    

*Ice Hounds*
AC: 4; HD: 8; Mv: 12; Int: Low; Size: M; Align: LE;
THAC0: 13; Att: 1; Dmg: 1d10; Spec Attack: None
Spec Def: Nil; EXP: 742

Ice hounds are relatives of the hell hound and are not originally from
the material plane.  The creatures are summoned to serve as guards in
cold weather regions.  In addition to a normal bite attack, ice hounds
can breathe a cloud of frost, causing 7 points of damage (save for
half damage).

From Treasures of the Savage Frontier.


Basically, we can take a hell hound and swap out fire for cold and be very close to finished.


----------



## Shade (Nov 14, 2007)

_Incredibly_ easy.   

*Ice Hound*
Medium Outsider (Evil, Cold, Extraplanar, Lawful)
Hit Dice: 4d8+4 (22 hp)
Initiative: +5
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+1 Dex, +5 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+5
Attack: Bite +5 melee (1d8+1 plus 1d6 cold)
Full Attack: Bite +5 melee (1d8+1 plus 1d6 cold)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Breath weapon, frosty bite
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., immunity to cold, scent, vulnerability to fire
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +4
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 13, Con 13, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 6
Skills: Hide +13, Jump +12, Listen +7, Move Silently +13, Spot +7, Survival +7*
Feats: Improved Initiative, Run, TrackB
Environment: Nine Hells of Baator
Organization: Solitary, pair, or pack (5–12)
Challenge Rating: 3
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always lawful evil
Advancement: 5–8 HD (Medium); 9–12 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: +3 (cohort)  

_The creature resembles a big, powerfully built dog with short, snow-white fur. Its markings, teeth, and tongue are sooty black. It has blue, glowing eyes._

Ice hounds are relatives of the hell hound and are not originally from the Material Plane. The creatures are summoned to serve as guards in cold weather regions.

A typical ice hound stands 4-1/2 feet high at the shoulder and weighs 120 pounds.

Ice hounds do not speak but understand Infernal.

Combat

Ice hounds are efficient hunters. A favorite pack tactic is to surround prey quietly, then attack with one or two hounds, driving it toward the rest with their frosty breath. If the prey doesn’t run, the pack closes in. Ice hounds track fleeing prey relentlessly.

An ice hound's natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as evil-aligned and lawful-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Breath Weapon (Su): 10-foot cone, once every 2d4 rounds, damage 2d6 cold, Reflex DC 13 half. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Frosty Bite (Su): An ice hound deals an extra 1d6 points of cold damage every time it bites an opponent, as if its bite were a frost weapon.

Skills: Ice hounds have a +5 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks.

*They also receive a +8 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent, due to their keen sense of smell.


----------



## freyar (Nov 14, 2007)

Very efficient!


----------



## dhaga (Nov 14, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Very efficient!



Sure is!  Looks done to me


----------



## Shade (Nov 14, 2007)

Alright, then.  Here's one that might take a tad longer...

*TYRIAN SLIME*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Subterranean, Mud Flats
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Non (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1-3
ARMOR CLASS: 2
MOVEMENT: 9
HIT DICE: 5
THACØ: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-12 (acid)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Launch “sticky” secretions
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immune to crushing and
thrusting weapons, Immune
to fire and acid
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (4’-6’ in diameter)
MORALE: Average (10)
XP VALUE: 2,000
PSIONICS: Nil

Appearance: This monster resembles any number of other slimes. It is largely composed of bluish green amoeba-like cells that allow it to seep through dark, damp subterranean areas beneath Athas. These creatures, like most others of their kind, can ooze beneath door cracks and move about the ceilings and walls. This allows them to drop on unsuspecting prey.

Combat: When Tyrian slimes attack, they envelop their prey and dissolve it. A Tyrian slime has two types of secretions. The first is a fast-drying, sticky substance that entangles iits prey into motionlessness. This secretion is the slime’s usual first attack. The spraying of this secretion acts like a web spell but affects one target rather than an area. The victim must make a saving throw versus breath weapon. A successful save indicates that the victim has dodged the spray, while failure indicates that the victim is entangled and cannot move.

The second secretion is a highly corrosive acid. This acidic secretion dissolves metal at a surprising rate (chain mail in two rounds, plate mail in three; and magical armor adds one additional round per each plus to Armor Class). The acid is also caustic to flesh and bone. Bone is dissolved on contact and exposed flesh suffers 2-12 (2d6) points of damage per hit.

Habitat/Society: The Tyrian slime is a solitary, asexual creature. It reproduces by dividing itself and is occasionally encountered with its own divided offspring.  The Tyrian slime lives to eat and reproduce.

Ecology: Dissolving all types of carrion and refuse, the Tyrian slime is sometimes tolerated as a sort of groundskeeper.  However, because of its instinctual reactions, the Tyrian slime occasionally manages to catch neighboring creatures and would-be feeders off-guard, and attacks them. 

From Dark Sun: Shattered Lands manual, p.53.


----------



## dhaga (Nov 14, 2007)

I was feeling particulary proactive.

*Type:* Medium Ooze
*Hit Dice:* 6d10 + 30 (63 hp)
*Initiative:* -5
*Speed:* 30 ft.
*Armor Class:* poor
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +x / +x
*Attack* should they have a slam?
*Full Attack:* 
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft / 5 ft
*Special Attacks:* Acid, Engulf, Tangle
*Special Qualities:* DR 10/slashing, Immune to Fire, Immune to Acid
*Saves:* Fort +7, Ref -3, Will +2
*Abilities:* Str 18, Dex 1, Con 20, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 10
*Skills:* 
*Feats:* 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Environment:* Mud Flats and Underground
*Organization:* Solitary or 1-3
*Challenge Rating:* x
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Neutral
*Advancement:* 7-8 HD (Medium), 9-10 HD (Large)

Tangle (Ex): works like a tanglefoot bag

Engulf (Ex): will borrow from gelatinous cube


----------



## Shade (Nov 16, 2007)

You're off to a good start.    

I think they should have a slam attack.  Probably 1d6 damage like the gray ooze.


----------



## Shade (Nov 19, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.

I dropped the Wis and Cha scores to 1 like many other mindless oozes.


----------



## Shade (Nov 20, 2007)

> Combat: When Tyrian slimes attack, they envelop their prey and dissolve it. A Tyrian slime has two types of secretions. The first is a fast-drying, sticky substance that entangles iits prey into motionlessness. This secretion is the slime’s usual first attack. The spraying of this secretion acts like a web spell but affects one target rather than an area. The victim must make a saving throw versus breath weapon. A successful save indicates that the victim has dodged the spray, while failure indicates that the victim is entangled and cannot move.




The tanglefoot bag basically just causes the entangled condition.

How about...

Entangling Spray (Ex):  A Tyrian slime can secrete a fast-drying, sticky substance and spray it at a single target within X feet.  The victim must succeed on a DC X Reflex save or become entangled.  The creature can break free and move half its normal speed by using a full-round action to make a DC X Strength check or a DC X Escape Artist check.  The save and check DCs are Constitution-based.


----------



## Shade (Nov 28, 2007)

thoughts?


----------



## freyar (Nov 30, 2007)

I like the entangling spray.  These look almost done, huh?


----------



## Shade (Nov 30, 2007)

Range for entangling spray?   20 feet?

Organization: Solitary or x (1-3)

Challenge Rating: ?


----------



## freyar (Nov 30, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Range for entangling spray?   20 feet?
> 
> Organization: Solitary or x (1-3)
> 
> Challenge Rating: ?




Sounds good.

Puddle?

CR is tough, since this is kind of like the rust monster.  It's not very hard to kill, except the darned acid means that you don't want to get up in melee with it.  CR4-5?


----------



## Shade (Dec 3, 2007)

I like puddle.   CR 5 seems about right, as it's about on par with ochre jelly.

Updated.

Is this fella done?


----------



## freyar (Dec 3, 2007)

I think it's done.


----------



## Shade (Apr 4, 2008)

*Kartang*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Subterranean or Jungle
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Tribal
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivorous
INTELLIGENCE: Low to Exceptional (5–16)
TREASURE: D
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic Evil
NO. APPEARING: 4–20
ARMOR CLASS: -6
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 14, 16, or 18
THACØ: 14 Hit Dice: 9
16 Hit Dice: 7
18 Hit Dice: 5
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2–16, swallow/engulf
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Swallow, engulf
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L
MORALE: Fanatic (17)
XP VALUE: 9,000

Appearance: Most who are born of kartang look and act like typical giant constrictors. Occasionally, however, a young snake will show signs that it is sentient. These kartang are often mistaken for elder serpents. 

Combat: Since the kartang look identical to giant constrictors, in combat they attack with their brethren and hide themselves in the masses so that opponents do not single them out. They bite for 2–16 points of damage and grab their victims in their coils, like constrictors. Full kartang have ironlike skin. All take half damage from fire, cold, and electricity due to their magical nature. The dual sentient-animal nature of the kartang makes it resistant to charm, sleep, and hold spells. 

Habitat/Society: The kartang are interested in increasing the number of sentient kartang on Athas. They are very protective of their eggs and their young.  Kartang do not value treasure, but horde it to tempt other beings who might be edible. The kartang believe that the young who are fed sentient beings will have a better chance of becoming sentient themselves.   Often times a kartang who is the sole sentient being in its community will talk to adventurers out of unimaginable boredom.  It may offer riches or power to lure players into negotiating with it. The kartang’s final goal, however, is always to kill the adventurers.

Ecology: The kartang are a race of giant snakes which arose from the magical disaster that swept Athas. They are carnivorous, preferring young birds and human flesh. Some larger groups have been known to herd and raise wingless birds or other warm-blooded creatures.

Originally appeared in Dark Sun: Wake of the Ravager PC game rule book


----------



## freyar (Apr 4, 2008)

Magical beast, then.  Do you want to start with the highest number of HD or with 14 HD?  They don't seem to gain much in the way of abilities as they advance?


----------



## Shade (Apr 4, 2008)

I'd say lowest, for the reasons you suggested.

A giant constrictor snake (Huge) has the following ability scores:

Str 25, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2

I'd say these things should be Huge, too.


----------



## freyar (Apr 4, 2008)

I'd take these physical stats and Wis, up Cha to 12 (or as low as 8), and put Int around 10 (somewhere in the middle of the given range).  So maybe Str 25, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 11, Wis 12, Cha 10?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Apr 5, 2008)

Those ability scores look right.

Demiurge out.


----------



## freyar (Apr 7, 2008)

Ok, it looks like bite damage is 2d8+1-1/2 Str, though we could go lower.  (These don't seem terribly tough for 14HD, though, so maybe it's better to keep this large amount.)  Also improved grab and constrict (huge constrictor snakes do 1d8+1-1/2 Str).



> All take half damage from fire, cold, and electricity due to their magical nature. The dual sentient-animal nature of the kartang makes it resistant to charm, sleep, and hold spells.




Resistance 10 to fire, cold, and electricity?
+2 racial bonus to saves vs charms & compulsions?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Apr 7, 2008)

I agree to the high bite damage and the resistances. The saving throws seem to be broader than just charms and compulsions--it mentions Hold and Sleep. I'd say give it Iron Will as a bonus feat, like we did for the utahraptor.

Demiurge out.


----------



## Shade (Apr 7, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


----------



## freyar (Apr 7, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> I agree to the high bite damage and the resistances. The saving throws seem to be broader than just charms and compulsions--it mentions Hold and Sleep. I'd say give it Iron Will as a bonus feat, like we did for the utahraptor.
> 
> Demiurge out.



 Hold and sleep are both compulsions, actually, so the +2 vs charms and compulsions is a bit broader than the original.  However, I wouldn't mind at all going to +4 or even higher to make these a little more special.

These are looking pretty good already.  How about an additional racial bonus (+12?) to Disguise checks when trying to appear as a unintelligent constrictor snake?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Apr 7, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Hold and sleep are both compulsions, actually, so the +2 vs charms and compulsions is a bit broader than the original.  However, I wouldn't mind at all going to +4 or even higher to make these a little more special.
> 
> These are looking pretty good already.  How about an additional racial bonus (+12?) to Disguise checks when trying to appear as a unintelligent constrictor snake?



Well I'll be hornswaggled. Hold and sleep are compulsions. I'd be fine with a +4 on saves vs. c&c. The Disguise boost also sounds good to me.

Demiurge out.


----------



## Shade (Apr 7, 2008)

Skills: 34
Bluff 17, Disguise 17?

Feats: 5 
Persuasive?  Improved Initiative?


----------



## freyar (Apr 7, 2008)

Let's put some in Survival, so maybe Bluff 12, Disguise 12, Survival 10?
Feats: Persuasive, Imp Init, Track, Self-Sufficient, Power Attack?


----------



## Shade (Apr 16, 2008)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: 7?   (Giant constrictors are 5, and these have more HD plus the greater BAB of magical beasts, as well as the resistances and save bonuses)

Treasure: Standard?

Alignment: Usually chaotic evil?

15–16 HD (Huge); 17–42 HD (Gargantuan)?  (To preserve the same sizes as giant constrictor snakes)


----------



## freyar (Apr 16, 2008)

All sounds good to me!


----------



## Shade (Apr 16, 2008)

Updated.   All done?


----------



## freyar (Apr 16, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Updated.   All done?



 Yeah, looks good!


----------



## Shade (Jul 29, 2008)

We haven't visited this thread in awhile...

*Ogre Slug*
Ogre slugs are weak to moderately difficult to kill. They do medium damage and have no magic-resistance. They take only half-damage from blunt weapons, so use edged weapons against them. They usually slither around in one's and two's.

From the journal pages:

"I imagine the thick rubbery hide of an ogre slug offers the monster added  protection against blunt weapons."

"More than once, the ogre slug I was fighting attempted to hit me with some  sort of corrosive spittle."

"One could only surmise that an ogre slug, which spits acid, would be immune to similar attacks."

Originally appeared in Eye of the Beholder III: Assault on Myth Drannor PC game rule book (1993).

Not much, there.  Essentially, these are ogre torsos atop a giant slug's hindquarters.   We've got some wiggle room to get creative here.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 29, 2008)

That's delightfully icky. I'd say these are Large aberrations. DR 10/slashing or piercing (or maybe just slashing?), acid resistance, acid spittle on a ranged touch (or maybe a breath weapon?).

Perhaps these are to ogres as driders are to drow? A curse on ogres by a vengeful god for some percieved slight?


----------



## Echohawk (Jul 30, 2008)

Shade said:


> Not much, there.



I suspect you overlooked page 86...

OGRE SLUG
Climate/Terrain: Any/Subterranean and wet
Frequency: Uncommon
Organization: Tribal
Activity Cycle: Any
Diet: Carnivore
Intelligence: Average (8-10)
Treasure: B, S (in lair only)
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
No. Appearing: 2-8
Armor Class: 4/8
Movement: 6
Hit Dice: 8+4
THAC0: 13
No. of Attacks: 2 or 1 with weapon
Damage/Attack: 1-12 or by weapon type (+6 with strength)
Special Attacks: Spits Acid
Special Defenses: 1/2 Damage from Blunt Weapons
Magic Resistance: Nil
Size: L (8' tall, 15' long)
Morale: Steady (11-12)
Exp. Point Value: 2000

The appearance of ogre slugs is unmistakable: they have the upper torso, arms, and head of an ogre but the lower body of a large slug. Their coloring is usually swampy, grey-green skin on the upper body area, fading into a deep, blackish green for the lower slug portion. Ogre slugs are just as mean and ugly (if not uglier) than their full bodied cousins.

Combat: An ogre slug's attack is delivered with its powerful arms. Twice each round the beast can strike with its huge fists for 1-12 points of damage. Its main attack, however, is that of its corrosive acidic saliva. An ogre slug may opt to spit acid once per round instead of attacking with its fists. The spittle may be flung up to 20 yards away and require the ogre slug to make an attack roll. The targets AC is 10 regardless of armor type. Dexterity and any magical bonuses apply. The acid eats its way through any equipment and armor (saving throw vs. acid) and causes 3-24 points of damage, save vs. breath weapon for 1/2 damage. Note that other ogre slugs are immune to this acid spittle.

Since they are part slug, they inherit a thick, rubbery hide that gives them partial immunity to blunt weapons. The ogre slug suffers only 1/2 damage caused by blunt weapons or spells that cause crushing or impact damage. Edged and piercing weapons as well as most other spells cause normal damage to an ogre slug. Although blunt weapons do limited damage, the slug portion has an AC of 8.

A raiding group of 6 or more will also include a leader. This leader will have 10 hit dice and have a strength bonus of +8 when attacking with a weapon.

Habitat/Society: Ogre slugs prefer to lair in dank, dingy underground caverns in almost any climate. They gather in tribes numbering 8-16 males, 2-16 females, and 2-8 young. Shamans, if present (40% chance), will be of 5th level, and have access to the spheres of combat, divination, healing, protection, and sun (darkness only). Giant slugs are often used as trained guards to help protect the lair. Ogre slugs live by raiding and scavenging, and will eat almost anything. Ogre slugs have a great fondness for human and demi-human flesh and are 60% likely to eat them on the spot rather than keep them as slaves.


----------



## Shade (Jul 30, 2008)

Echohawk said:


> I suspect you overlooked page 86...




Apparently so.  

Thanks!


----------



## Shade (Jul 30, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> That's delightfully icky. I'd say these are Large aberrations. DR 10/slashing or piercing (or maybe just slashing?), acid resistance, acid spittle on a ranged touch (or maybe a breath weapon?).
> 
> Perhaps these are to ogres as driders are to drow? A curse on ogres by a vengeful god for some percieved slight?




All of this sounds great.  In fact, there is a deity called simply "The Dark God" within the adventure which possibly created them.

Ogre Ability Scores: Str 21, Dex 8, Con 15, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7
Giant Slug Ability Scores: Str 26, Dex 8, Con 21, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 7

Giant slug abilities...

Damage reduction 10/slashing or piercing

Acid Bite (Ex): A giant slug's bite deals 1d6 points of acid damage in addition to any other damage it deals. The damage is not doubled on a critical hit.

Acid Spit (Ex): Giant slugs can spit a ball of caustic saliva with a range of 20 feet, as a ranged touch attack. This attack deals 6d6 points of acid damage on a successful hit. Clothing and armor worn by the target of this spit dissolves and becomes useless immediately unless the item succeeds on a DC 21 Reflex save. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Rubbery Form (Ex): The body of a giant slug is very rubbery, allowing it to squeeze through spaces normally too small for its bulk. A giant slug can move through a space 10 feet wide without squeezing. A giant slug can also move through a space 5 feet wide by taking the standard penalties for squeezing.

Skills: A giant slug has a +8 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.


----------



## freyar (Jul 30, 2008)

How about Str 24, Dex 8, Con 19, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 7 as a hybrid?  Or do you want to push them all the way up to the giant slug physical abilities?  I could also see an argument that they shouldn't be any smarter than the normal ogre.

I think we can just adapt the giant slug abilities.


----------



## Shade (Jul 30, 2008)

Added to Homebrews with your suggested stats.  Since the giant slug is Huge, and these are Large, let's not exactly match the physical scores.

Natural armor is +5 for ogre and +8 for a giant slug.  Go with +6 or +7 here?

I don't think acid bite is apporpriate, and rubbery form probably isn't either, as the ogre part would make squeezing difficult.  Retain the racial bonus on Move Silently checks?

Speed translates to 20 feet, but a giant slug has 30 feet.   Go with same as the slug?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 31, 2008)

No, let's keep them slow. I like the suggestion for intermediate natural armor and the Move Silently bonus.


----------



## Shade (Jul 31, 2008)

Updated.

Suggested weapon for the attack lines?  I'm imagining something blunt, since they are immune...maybe a maul?

Resistance to acid 15?

Skills: 11
Ogres have Climb, Listen, Spot
Giant slugs are mindless, so have none

Feats: 3
Ogres have Toughness, Weapon Focus (greatclub) 
Giant slugs are mindless, so have none

Environment: Any land and underground?



> Organization: Tribal
> No. Appearing: 2-8






> A raiding group of 6 or more will also include a leader. This leader will have 10 hit dice and have a strength bonus of +8 when attacking with a weapon.






> They gather in tribes numbering 8-16 males, 2-16 females, and 2-8 young. Shamans, if present (40% chance), will be of 5th level, and have access to the spheres of combat, divination, healing, protection, and sun (darkness only). Giant slugs are often used as trained guards to help protect the lair.




Organization: Solitary, raiding party (2-8 plus one 2nd-level/10 HD leader) or tribe (8-16 males, 2-16 females, 2-8 young plus x 5th-level shamans and x giant slugs)?

Treasure: Standard (like ogres)?

Advancement: By character class?  Or HD and class?  (Driders advance solely by class)

Adult ogre slugs stand 8 feet tall and are nearly 15 feet in length, weighing around x pounds. 

"Adult ogres stand 9 to 10 feet tall and weigh 600 to 650 pounds."

"The average giant slug grows to nearly 14 feet long, capable of stretching out its bulk to nearly the same height. An adult giant slug weighs about 12,000 pounds."

Ogre slugs speak Giant, and those specimens who boast Intelligence scores of at least 10 also speak (Under)Common?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 31, 2008)

Agreed to Undercommon. We might want to give them an edged weapon so they can hurt each other. They're CE, so inter-tribal warfare would happen, I think. Maybe spears?


----------



## Shade (Jul 31, 2008)

Longspears sound good.  Thoughts on the rest?


----------



## freyar (Jul 31, 2008)

Agreed to all the updates.  Spears or morningstars for weapons might work.

I like Climb 5, Listen 3, Spot 3.

Feats: Weapon Focus (whatever we go with), Power Attack, Point Blank Shot?

Environment is good.  Organization looks good; make the tribe have 3-4 shamans and 4-8 giant slugs.

6000 lb?


----------



## Shade (Jul 31, 2008)

That all looks good to me.

Speaking of Climb, I'm surprised the giant slug doesn't have a climb speed, since slugs commonly climb walls.  Should we give the ogre slug one?


----------



## freyar (Jul 31, 2008)

Maybe giant slugs are too heavy to stick to walls?  Frankly, I don't quite see these guys slithering up walls, but we could if you want.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 1, 2008)

I like the slithering up walls idea. Maybe using a spider climb varient, because they're so sticky.


----------



## Shade (Aug 1, 2008)

Like so?

Slime Climb (Ex): This ability works like the spider climb spell, but only works on vertical surfaces. It is always in effect.


----------



## freyar (Aug 1, 2008)

Sure, why not?  

Anything else these need?  The only other unanswered question I see upthread is advancement.  Since giants, ogres, and driders just advance by character class, I think these should also.


----------



## Shade (Aug 1, 2008)

Updated.

CR 5?


----------



## freyar (Aug 1, 2008)

Yeah, CR 5 sounds ok, and they seem about finished with that.


----------



## Shade (Aug 8, 2008)

*Living Muck*
Climate/Terrain : Any/Underground or ruins
Frequency: Rare
Organization: Solitary
Activity Cycle: Any
Diet: Any
Intelligence: Non- (0)
Treasure: Nil
Alignment: Nil
No. Appearing: 1 (1-4)
Armor Class: 6
Movement: 9
Hit Dice: 11
THACO: 9
No. of Attacks: 1
Damage/Attack: 7-28
Special Attacks: See below
Special Defenses: See below
Magic Resistance: Nil
Size: S-L (3'-8')
Morale: Special
Exp. Point Value: 5000

Living mucks are voracious, amorphous monsters composed of groups of cell colonies that scavenge and hunt for food.  They typically inhabit ruins and dungeons.  They have the ability to sense heat and analyze material structure from a distance of up to 90 feet to determine if something is edible. Living mucks attack any animal or vegetable matter (including humans) on sight.

All living mucks are immune to acid, lightning, and poison. Fire causes half damage, as do magic missiles. Living mucks can ooze through cracks that are at least 1 inch wide and can travel on ceilings and walls (falling on victims is a nasty surprise) at the same speed as on a level surface.

Living mucks reproduce by fission. They are adapted to live in a wide variety of climates.  

The touch of living mucks is not only very caustic, causing 7-28 points of damage, but is also corrosive to equipment canned by a character.  Any item touched by a living muck requires that a save vs . acid be made or the item dissolves and becomes useless. The touch of a living muck also causes paralysis to any creature touched unless a saving throw vs. paralyzation at -4 is made.

From the journal pages:

"Living mucks are particularly nasty creatures since attacking them often destroys your metal weapons! They are immune to acid, lightning, and poison. Fire-based spells do half-damage, and cold-based spells will often, but not always, do damage. The best way to destroy living mucks is to continuously cast cold-based spells such as cone of cold until they succumb. Note that the only weapons that will not be harmed by these creatures are wooden weapons and throwing hammers."

"However, soon after the party begins their exploration, the Dark God is alerted to their presence and sends some of his dark servants to dispatch the party: oozing, pudding-like creatures called living mucks and shadow realm denizens known as shades."

Originally appeared in Eye of the Beholder III: Assault on Myth Drannor PC game rule book (1993).


----------



## freyar (Aug 9, 2008)

Seems like a classic ooze.  Also a nice tie in to the Dark God (that cursed the ogre slugs, perhaps).  

With 11HD, I'd say start them at either Medium or more likely Large.

Touch attack, acid damage plus paralysis.  Not sure where 7-28 comes from, but 3d6 might be ok.  2d6 if that seems too high.  Add Con to the damage?  Acid definitely can harm equipment but probably not wood.

Immune to acid, electricity, poison.  Resistance to fire (10?).  Want to keep half damage from magic missiles?  The "journal" mentions possible slight resistance to cold.

Should get a split ability, probably more like the one we did for the gravewatcher than the other oozes.

Want to add usual ooze DR, or does it have enough defenses?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 9, 2008)

7-28 is 7d4. Let's simplify that to... 3d8? 

Blindsight also seems reasonable, since they detect heat. Possibly lifesense?


----------



## freyar (Aug 9, 2008)

3d8 works for me in terms of acid damage.  

I like blindsight.  I'm also a little ambivalent on lifesense, but it's a possibility.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 9, 2008)

I'd say lifesense instead of blindsight, since undead and constructs don't have body heat to see.


----------



## freyar (Aug 9, 2008)

You know, I just checked, and oozes always get blindsight.  I'm amenable to adding lifesense, though.


----------



## Shade (Aug 18, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> With 11HD, I'd say start them at either Medium or more likely Large.




Yeah, 11 HD skews closer to Large.  Do we want to start at 11 HD and Large, or lower the HD and start at Small, allowing it to advance to Large?


----------



## freyar (Aug 18, 2008)

If we keep 3d8 acid damage as demiurge suggests, let's stay at 11HD and Large.  But I could see starting at a lower HD total and also decreasing the damage.  Just depends: what CR range do we think we need more pre-made oozes?


----------



## Shade (Aug 18, 2008)

Oozes have a pretty even distribution, but CR 8 has only one, which is about where this would fall if we stick with 11 HD and Large.


----------



## freyar (Aug 18, 2008)

11HD and about CR8 works well for me.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 19, 2008)

Let's shoot for it.

I was in favor of replacing blindsight with lifesense since they see heat. Having both would be redundant, unless lifesense had a larger range. Lifesense only creates the interesting side effect that undead and constructs are invisible to them.


----------



## Shade (Aug 19, 2008)

OK, shooting for 11 HD, Large, CR 8.   Here are comparable oozes:

Arcane Ooze: Str 22, Dex 1, Con 26, Int —, Wis 1, Cha 1
Black Pudding: Str 17, Dex 1, Con 22, Int —, Wis 1, Cha 1
Corrupture: Str 31, Dex 1, Con 29, Int —, Wis 1, Cha 1
Obsidian Ooze: Str 20, Dex 1, Con 20, Int —, Wis 1, Cha 1
Void Ooze: Str 20, Dex 1, Con 26, Int —, Wis 1, Cha 1

We should probably lean toward the high end of the ability scores to warrant its CR as higher than the black pudding.


----------



## freyar (Aug 19, 2008)

What about Str 30, Dex 1, Con 26, Int -, Wis 1, Cha 1?  I'd actually be fine with increasing Dex a little, but it seems like oozes are just Dex 1 (in this HD range).


----------



## Shade (Aug 19, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

I'm fine with replacing blindsight with lifesense, or having both and allowing lifesense to extend to 90 feet.   Any preferences?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 20, 2008)

I'm up for lifesense only, but would be fine either way.


----------



## Shade (Aug 20, 2008)

Let's just use lifesense.  It will help differentiate them from other oozes.

Updated.

Organization: Solitary or x (2-4)

Advancement: 12–15 HD (Huge); 16–30 HD (Gargantuan)?

The typical living muck measures 8 feet across and 2 feet thick. It weighs about x pounds.  (Gray ooze is 10 feet in diameter but only 6 inches thick, and weighs 700 pounds, for comparison).

Anything else?


----------



## freyar (Aug 20, 2008)

Solitary or Mess?

Advancement looks good.

1500 lb, if it's similar density to the gray ooze.


----------



## Shade (Aug 22, 2008)

Updated.

Anything else we want to do with these things?


----------



## freyar (Aug 22, 2008)

Looks pretty done, but one question: should split also say half as many HD (since that affects DCs, etc)?


----------



## Shade (Aug 22, 2008)

Nice catch!

Updated.


----------



## freyar (Aug 22, 2008)

Looks good.  Question on CR: should the extremely low AC drop it some, or are there just enough defenses that it doesn't matter?  This thing certainly has reasonable damage output.  (Incidentally, I think we were suggesting CR 8 before.)


----------



## Shade (Aug 22, 2008)

You are correct about the CR...I must've confused it with HD.

Fixed.

I think its definitely strong enough for CR 8.  Most oozes have crappy AC.


----------



## freyar (Aug 22, 2008)

Sounds good, and I think it's done.


----------



## Shade (Oct 1, 2008)

*Grave Mist*
Climate/Terrain: Any/Graveyard & Burial Grounds
Frequency: Very Rare
Organization: Group
Activity Cycle: Night
Diet: Corpses
Intelligence: Average (8-10)
Treasure: Nil
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
No. Appearing: 1-4
Armor Class: 4
Movement: 12
Hit Dice: 7+1
THACO: 13
No, of Attacks: 1
Damage/Attack: 1-4
Special Attacks: Constitution Drain
Special Defenses: +1 or better weapon to hit
Magic Resistance: See Below
Size: M (6')
Morale: Elite (14)
Exp . Point Value: 3000

These terrible undead are typically found in desolate graveyards and burial grounds. They do, however, dwell anywhere there are dead. Grave mists seep into the Prime Material Plane where dead bodies are present. They feed on any remaining life essence that a dead body retains.

Grave mists appear vaguely humanoid in shape with grey swirling mist as the outline of their bodies. Dark, black holes are all that show on the face to denote eyes. Their movements are swift and deft. A group may appear as smoke or fog to the unwary traveler.

Combat : A grave mist attacks with a chilling touch similar to that of a wraith, doing 1-4 points of damage as well as draining a point of constitution. This constitution drain is due to their link to the Negative Material Plane. Each chilling touch drains the victim until constitution reaches zero, causing the victim to become immobile. If a character with a constitution score of fifteen or better is drained, the hit points for that character are reduced accordingly. When the constitution score reaches seven or less, hit points are reduced as required. Constitution returns at a rate of one point per hour of complete rest; up to the victim's original score.

The grave mist has the normal undead resistances (immunity to sleep, charm, hold, or cold-based spells) as well as needing +1 or better weapons to suffer damage. In addition to being immune to cold-based spells, grave mists actually heal from such spells. Any cold-based attack inflicted against them results in the regeneration of hit points equal to one third the total damage normally taken from the attack (rounded up). For example; an ice storm is capable of doing 3-30 points of damage. If it did 20 points of damage, then the grave mist would regenerate 7 hit points.  This regeneration does not exceed the grave mist's original hit points.

Habitat/Society: Grave mists travel in very loose groups that roam the Prime Material Plane in search of graveyards or the sites of recent battles. Grave mists have no leaders and as such spend most of their time looking for corpses.  They put no value on wealth or treasure, however, the corpse a grave mist is feeding on may very well be loaded down with treasure.

Ecology: Like all undead, grave mists exist on both the Prime Material and Negative Material Plane simultaneously. It is this powerful link to the negative world that gives them their fearful ability to drain constitution. Through this draining is how the grave mist ultimately feeds.

Because they are not living creatures, they have no rightful place in any food chain.

Originally appeared in Eye of the Beholder III: Assault on Myth Drannor Rule Book (1993).


----------



## freyar (Oct 1, 2008)

I'm thinking monster, not template.

Clearly incorporeal.  Touch does cold plus Con (or untyped plus Con, like wraith?).  Whatever the healing from energy attacks SQ is called, it has that for cold.  Otherwise, it's a lot like a wraith but with a couple more HD.  

Wraith has Str —, Dex 16, Con —, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 15.   Since these are Int (average), maybe Str —, Dex 18, Con —, Int 9, Wis 12, Cha 15?


----------



## Shade (Oct 1, 2008)

We might also want to look at the crimson death in MMII.

Its ability scores are Str -, Dex 21, Con -, Int 17, Wis 15, Cha 14

Its pertinent abilities...

Blood Drain (Ex): A crimson death drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution damage immediately upon seizing an opponent with a tendril. Each round thereafter that the opponent remains seized, the creature automatically deals an additional 1d4 points of Constitution damage. The crimson death craves blood, so it usually presses its attack until it can deal at least 12 points of Constitution damage.

Seize (Ex): When a crimson death makes a successful incorporeal touch attack, one of its tendrils wraps around the opponent. The two creatures are not considered grappled, but the opponent can break free with a successful Escape Artist or grapple check (grapple bonus +11). Upon seizing an opponent, the crimson death begins draining blood.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Oct 1, 2008)

Neither blood drain or seize seem pertinent here. However, some sort of camouflage ability might be.


----------



## freyar (Oct 1, 2008)

Blood drain makes sense, but I'm not positive about seize.  Willing to consider it, though.

For abilities, I'm ok with bumping Dex all the way to 21, but I'd rather keep Wis a little closer to average to go with the lower Int.


----------



## Shade (Oct 2, 2008)

Oops!  Disregard the crimson death comparison...I had these confused with the Scarlet Dancer.

Your suggestions look good.

Added to Homebrews.


----------



## freyar (Oct 2, 2008)

Since the Con returns to the victim with rest, I think it should be damage rather than drain.  Otherwise looking ok so far.


----------



## Shade (Oct 2, 2008)

freyar said:


> Since the Con returns to the victim with rest, I think it should be damage rather than drain.  Otherwise looking ok so far.




Since they are essentially stronger wraiths, wanna stick with drain like wraiths?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Oct 3, 2008)

I say keep damage. Differentiates them a bit--they're not necessarily wraith +.


----------



## Shade (Oct 3, 2008)

Fair enough.

Updated.

Skills: 30 ranks 

Feats: 3

Environment: Any?

Challenge Rating: 6?  (They are only slightly better than wraiths at CR 5.)

Advancement: x

A grave mist speaks x.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Oct 3, 2008)

Hide, Listen and Spot seem like the skills to have. 

Flyby Attack, Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (incorporeal touch)? Ability Focus (incorporeal touch) is also tempting.


----------



## Shade (Oct 3, 2008)

Updated.

I left the third feat slot open to get other opinions on Ability Focus vs. Weapon Focus.  I'm fine with either of 'em.

Thoughts on Environment, CR, Advancement, and languages (if any)?


----------



## freyar (Oct 3, 2008)

I'd say go with AF.

Environment: Any is good, and Common for the language works for me.

CR seems like about 5.

Advancement: 8-14 HD (Medium)?


----------



## Shade (Oct 6, 2008)

Do we want them to be able to speak, or simply understand, Common?

Hmmm..wraith is CR 5.  These things have 2 more HD, and fill a similar niche.  Is Con damage worth significantly less than Con drain?  They also lack the wraith's Daylight Powerlessness, which also leans me toward CR 6.  Thoughts?


----------



## freyar (Oct 6, 2008)

Oh, let's let them speak.

CR 6 seems fair to me.  All done?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Oct 6, 2008)

I agree to both.


----------



## Shade (Dec 26, 2008)

*Shadow Hound*
Climate/Terrain : Any/Ruins or subterranean
Frequency: Rare
Organization: Packs
Activity Cycle: Night
Diet: Carnivore
Intelligence: Semi- (2-4)
Treasure: Nil
Alignment: Neutral (Evil)
No. Appearing: 4-16
Armor Class: 6
Movement: 18 (9 in bright light)
Hit Dice: 6 (-1 hp/die in bright light)
THACO: 15
No. of Attacks: 1
Damage/Attack: 2-8
Special Attacks: Nil
Special Defenses: +1 or better weapon to hit
Magic Resistance: Nil
Size: M (4' at shoulder)
Morale: Steady (11-12)
Exp . Point Value: 975

These hound-like creatures are normally encountered on the Plane of Shadow. In their natural habitat, they roam in packs or are used as trained guard beasts.

As their name would suggest, shadow hounds appear as dark, black shadows of a canine form. Their eyes glow with a fiery radiance that sends a chill to the very soul of anyone looking at them. When they attack with their vicious teeth, their mouths produce the same fiery radiance as their eyes.

Combat: Like dogs and wolves of the Prime Material Plane, shadow hounds attack in packs using their powerful jaws to drag a prey off of its feet. Once down, the hounds swarm over the prey and devour it mercilessly. In shadowy conditions (Plane of Shadow, moonlight, etc.) a shadow hound is a terrible foe. It can strike and then blend with the shadows so that it is 40% unlikely to be seen. However, in bright light it loses 50% of its movement and cannot use shadows for concealment. Regardless of lighting, +1 or better weapons are needed to harm these beasts.

Habitat/Society: Shadow hounds, like wolves, are sociable creatures and travel around in packs. The structure of the pack is very strict; there is only one leader and every other shadow hound knows its place and duties.

The lair of a pack of shadow hounds is 50% likely to contain 2-7 whelps. These young will not fight but can be taken and trained. A shadow hound whelp can sell for 200-700 gold pieces.

Originally appeared in Eye of the Beholder III: Assault on Myth Drannor Rule Book (1993).


----------



## Shade (Dec 26, 2008)

Magical Beast (Extraplanar)?



> Combat: Like dogs and wolves of the Prime Material Plane, shadow hounds attack in packs using their powerful jaws to drag a prey off of its feet. Once down, the hounds swarm over the prey and devour it mercilessly.




Trip like wolves, or even a lesser form of savage like brachyurus?



> In shadowy conditions (Plane of Shadow, moonlight, etc.) a shadow hound is a terrible foe. It can strike and then blend with the shadows so that it is 40% unlikely to be seen.




Shadow blend and hide in plain sight?



> However, in bright light it loses 50% of its movement and cannot use shadows for concealment.




A variant of light vulnerability?



> Regardless of lighting, +1 or better weapons are needed to harm these beasts.




DR 5/magic?

Ability scores of similar creatures...
Riding Dog (M): Str 15, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Hell Hound (M): Str 13, Dex 13, Con 13, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 6
Shadow Mastiff (M): Str 17, Dex 13, Con 17, Int 4, Wis 12, Cha 13
Spectral Hound (M): Str 15, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 8


----------



## freyar (Dec 27, 2008)

Those suggestions sound good.  I think I like the idea of using savage, also.

How about Str 18, Dex 12, Con 19, Int 4, Wis 13, Cha 11?  Just winging it here, but it seems like they should have slightly better physical stats than the shadow mastiff since they have more HD but no need for the higher Cha.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Dec 27, 2008)

Yeah, I'm not seeing much to distinguish these from shadow mastiffs.


----------



## freyar (Dec 27, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Yeah, I'm not seeing much to distinguish these from shadow mastiffs.



True.  Still, these will drop bay and get savage (or some form), and the light vulnerability will help, too.


----------



## Shade (Dec 30, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

I'll be happy to differentiate them further from shadow mastiffs.  Perhaps give them shadow jump, making them the perfect shadowdancer companion?

Should we drop shadow blend since hide in plain sight offers some similar functionality?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Dec 30, 2008)

Yeah, drop shadowblend. A bit of shadow jump would be interesting.


----------



## Shade (Dec 30, 2008)

40 feet for the shadow jump?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Dec 30, 2008)

40 feet is good. All at once, or can be broken up like a shadowdancer?


----------



## Shade (Dec 30, 2008)

I'd say just like shadowdancer.

Updated.

Add beefy hide bonus in areas of shadowy illumination?

Racial bonus on Move Silently?



> However, in bright light it loses 50% of its movement and cannot use shadows for concealment.




How's this?

Light Vulnerability (Ex): When exposed to sunlight or to light equivalent to a daylight spell, a shadow hound is slowed (as the spell).  This condition persists until the shadow hound leaves the area or the light is extinguished.


----------



## freyar (Dec 30, 2008)

All this looks good!  Let's max out Hide.  Stealthy, Power Attack, Cleave?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Dec 31, 2008)

I'd suggest Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack. But that'd require bumping Dex to 13 (heaven forbid!)


----------



## freyar (Dec 31, 2008)

Works for me, let's go for it.


----------



## Shade (Jan 5, 2009)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: 6?  (That's one better than shadow mastiff)

Alignment: Often neutral evil?

Advancement: x

A typical shadow hound is 4 feet tall at the shoulder and weighs x pounds.

Shadow hounds cannot speak, but understand x.


----------



## freyar (Jan 5, 2009)

CR 6 sounds ok, but maybe a tough CR 5.  I think the mastiff's SAs are maybe a little better.
Often NE is good.
Advancement: 7-9 HD (Medium), 10-18 HD (Large)?
200 lb?
Common, I guess.

Usual magical beast training stuff (ie, higher DC)?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 5, 2009)

I think CR 6 is fair.


----------



## Shade (Jan 5, 2009)

Updated.

I borrowed the prices in the training section from the also CR 6 deep hound.


----------



## freyar (Jan 5, 2009)

Works for me, and I think it's done.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 5, 2009)

Let's call it a wrap, then.


----------



## Shade (Mar 10, 2009)

*Walking Trees*
AC:0 HD:12 Mv:6 Int: Non Size: L
Align: N THAC0/:9 Att:2
Dmg:4d6/4d6
Spec Def: Immunity to confusion XP:7000

The powers of Moander allow its followers to animate some plants.  When the Cult of Moander joined with the wizard Marcus and the glabrezu Taleton, this power was extended to many of the trees of the Elven Court.  The trees are unintelligent and mindlessly obey the orders of the cult.  They strike with two large limbs.

Originally appeared in Pools of Darkness Adventurer's Journal (1991).


----------



## freyar (Mar 10, 2009)

Well, there's not a lot here, is there?  Looks like two pretty hefty slams.  Want to borrow some stuff from treants and similar tree-plants?  Or any other plants?


----------



## Shade (Mar 10, 2009)

It seems like stronger (higher-HD), mindless treants would get the job done.

Maybe Str 34, Dex 8, Con 24, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 1?


----------



## freyar (Mar 10, 2009)

Sure!  Probably no "animate trees" though.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Mar 10, 2009)

Yeah. Do we want to keep the double damage to inanimate objects?


----------



## freyar (Mar 10, 2009)

And Improved Sunder?   Depends if we're making a rust monster out of them, I guess.  Otherwise, they're pretty bland.


----------



## Shade (Mar 10, 2009)

Yes to double damage.  Improved Sunder will have to be a bonus feat, since, being mindless, they have no feats. 

Do we want to increase the treant's damage from 2d6 to 3d6 or even 4d6?


----------



## freyar (Mar 10, 2009)

Sure, I guess.  Let's go 4d6.  Then these are a bit better in damage output than a clay golem, which is probably reasonable, since they're lacking a lot of a golem's nice features.


----------



## Shade (Mar 10, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Environment: Any forests?  (allowing for a variety of tree types)

Organization: Solitary or stand (2-x)?

Challenge Rating: x

Treasure: None?

Advancement: x

Should we provide some method for their "animation"?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Mar 10, 2009)

If a treant's trees go rogue? Trees corrupted by evil seems the way to go here, judging by their connection to Moander (god of rotting vegetation in FR).

I don't think we should give them Improved Sunder, actually. They can do a ton of damage to objects, but it puts them at risk of AoOs.


----------



## freyar (Mar 10, 2009)

And, thinking about it, with the damage output they have, Improved Sunder is about munchkiny.  Maybe say they are trees corrupted by agents of dark gods?

Any forest.
stand (2-8)
CR 9 or maybe a weak 10, from comparing to the clay golem
No treasure.
13-16 HD (Huge), 17-32 HD (Gargantuan)?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Mar 10, 2009)

With fire vulnerability, let's say 9.


----------



## Shade (Mar 11, 2009)

Updated.

Anything left?


----------



## freyar (Mar 11, 2009)

Looks pretty good.  Almost more of a construct than a plant, but it's a nice twist.


----------



## Shade (Mar 13, 2009)

*Kampfults, Giant*
AC: 4; HD: 5; Mv: 3; Int: Low; Size: M; Align: N;
THACO: 15; Att: 6; Dmg: 5;
Spec Attack: Hold, Suprise; Spec Def: None; EXP 260

Giant kampfults are larger versions of the kampfult, sometimes called the "sinewy mugger." This creature originally inhabited woodland areas, but has been driven out by human hunters.  They now can be found in ruins or dungeon settings.  Once a victim is hit by one of the kampfults' rope-like body vines, there is no escape until the kampfult is slain.

Originally appeared in Treasures of the Savage Frontier Adventure Journal (1992).


----------



## Shade (Mar 13, 2009)

Hmmm...compared to the standard kampfult, the only differences are 3 more HD and damage 4 points higher.

Without a "re-imagining", I'm not sure that these need to be converted, as advancing a kampfult would probably take care of it.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Mar 13, 2009)

Agreed.


----------



## Echohawk (Mar 13, 2009)

Chopped from the unconverted list then


----------



## Shade (Sep 9, 2009)

In the interest of finishing off the Dark Sun unconverted...

*Soul Shards*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Only in the presence of the broken Chandelier of Ancestry
FREQUENCY: Unique
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Any sentient
INTELLIGENCE: That of the victim
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic Evil
NO. APPEARING: 6
ARMOR CLASS: That of the victim
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: Victim’s maximum hit points, doubles with every death
THACØ: Same as victim
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1–8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Cannot be killed permanently while victim is conscious
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M
MORALE: Fanatic (17)
XP VALUE: 30,000

Combat: When the broken Chandelier activates, it takes a living victim (chosen randomly) and splits his or her consciousness into 6 shards. The victim is paralyzed while the shards attack the party. Every shard that dies adds the victim’s hit points to each of its remaining friends. When all the shards are destroyed, the victim loses a permanent attribute point and the shards reform at full strength. This continues until either the Chandelier is repaired or the victim dies. The shards are immune to sleep and charm spells.

Originally appeared in Dark Sun: Wake of the Ravager Rule Book (1994).


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 10, 2009)

That looks... awful. No wonder they've never been converted. Any idea of where to start?


----------



## freyar (Sep 10, 2009)

Yeah, yuck.  Is the Chandelier itself a creature?  Because these read more as an Su or Sp effect of the Chandelier rather than monsters.  I could see making this some kind of hazard, like Paizo's haunts.  Hmmm.


----------



## Shade (Sep 10, 2009)

Your guess is as good as mine.  I've never actually played the game in question, and the rulebook offered little information the Chandelier (unless I missed it).

I'm fine with skipping these entirely as "too niche to convert", or a complete reimagining using the source material as a springboard to something more widely useful.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Sep 11, 2009)

Too niche is my vote.


----------



## freyar (Sep 11, 2009)

Oof, I'd had to leave something unconverted.  I'd vote for writing it as a haunt without the turning aspect, but it's your call whether it's convertible.  I certainly don't think it works as is.


----------



## Echohawk (Oct 23, 2009)

What was the consensus on this one? Drop from the unconverted list?


----------



## Shade (Oct 23, 2009)

Yes, it seemed unconvertable.


----------



## Shade (Dec 28, 2009)

*Spider Queens*
AC: 1; HD: 9; Mv: 15; Int: Low; Size: L; Align: CE;
THACO: 11; Att: 1; Dmg: 2d8
Spec Attack: Poison (death); Spec Def: None; EXP: 892

A fearsome leader of arachnids, a spider queen sometimes appears with
large numbers of lesser spiders.

Originally appeared in Treasures of the Savage Frontier Adventure Journal (1992).


These aren't terribly exciting, but since they are smart enough to become magical beasts, we might jazz 'em up a bit.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Dec 28, 2009)

With their magical beast intelligence, we should also give them some sort of spider empathy or rebuke/command spiders, so they can lead armies of their fellow spiders.


----------



## Shade (Dec 28, 2009)

Excellent idea.

We might even consider an aura that bolsters the venom of its minions, or maybe something similar to animal growth that works on vermin.


----------



## freyar (Dec 29, 2009)

Perhaps all of the above.  I could potentially also see a HD boost.  Tie these to the other "animal lords" like the sabu and snake lord?


----------



## Shade (Dec 29, 2009)

We could do that.  I wouldn't make 'em too tough, though, or they'll need really big spider minions.   Smaller monstrous spiders would pose little threat and perish quickly.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Dec 31, 2009)

Aim for CR 4-5, perhaps?


----------



## freyar (Dec 31, 2009)

That seems very reasonable.


----------



## Shade (Dec 31, 2009)

That would place them on par with phase spiders, which are 5 HD and Large.  Do we want to downgrade their HD, or settle for a CR closer to 7?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 1, 2010)

CR 7 works for me. At that level, Small, Medium and Large monstrous spiders will all still give XP to those fighting them.


----------



## freyar (Jan 3, 2010)

That's fine here too.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 3, 2010)

demiurge1138 said:


> CR 7 works for me. At that level, Small, Medium and Large monstrous spiders will all still give XP to those fighting them.




Ooh goody, another spider! I love spider monsters.

I agree with aiming for a Challenge Rating of 6-7.

Right. Since they're 9 HD shall we make them Huge Magical Beasts, since a phase spider is a 5HD Large Magical Beast and a Large Monstrous Spider is a 4 HD Vermin? That also fits its 2d8 bite damage, since a Huge Monstrous Spider has a 2d6 bite, which is pretty close.

Ability score wise, here's a Huge Phase Spider and a Huge Monstrous Spider for comparison:

Huge Phase Spider: Str 25, Dex 15, Con 20, Int 7, Wis 13, Cha 10
Huge Monstrous Spider: Str 19, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 0, Wis 10, Cha 2

The phase spider seems the most suitable model, although since we're modelling these as spider "royalty" which command other spiders I'm thinking they should have a higher Charisma and lower Constitution. Since they have good AC for a spider, I'd give them the Monstrous Spider's Dexterity. Maybe something like:

Spider Queen: Str 24, Dex 17, Con 18, Int 7, Wis 13, Cha 16

Since the original's got AC1, that works out as AC19 in 3E, so I'm thinking Dex 17 and +8 natural armour.


----------



## freyar (Jan 3, 2010)

You and all the rest of the D&D designers!

I sort of like Large to make them just be tough, but I can also see the argument for Huge.

Abilities seem ok, but I wouldn't mind boosting the AC just a teeny bit.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 3, 2010)

I'd be in favor of boosting AC, keeping them Large, but let them advance to Huge pretty quickly, like a wyvern.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 4, 2010)

demiurge1138 said:


> I'd be in favor of boosting AC, keeping them Large, but let them advance to Huge pretty quickly, like a wyvern.




What would you like to boost the Armour Class too? If we leave them with Dex 17 and NA +8 and shrink them to Large they'd get AC20, is that enough?

I'd be happy making them at the upper end of Large, but would like to knock a couple of points off Strength and Constitution.

i.e. Str 22, Dex 17, Con 16, Int 7, Wis 13, Cha 16.

That way they've got the same Con as a Large Phase Spider, but a Strength 5 points higher.

Do you fancy the same advancement scheme as a Wyvern? (100-150% HD size, 150-300% HD size+1)

That would make them:

Advancement 9-13 HD (Large); 14-27 HD (Huge)


----------



## Shade (Jan 4, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

Should they be hunting spiders, or give 'em webs as well?

Give 'em all the usual monstrous spider racial skill bonuses?

Do we want to boost the venom?  Currently, it has the phase spider's venom as a placeholder.

Suggested level for rebuke/command?   Equal to Hit Dice?


----------



## freyar (Jan 4, 2010)

Looking good.  In answer to the questions:

Webs also.  
Yes to skill bonuses.
Wyverns get 2d6 Con primary/secondary, so we can definitely increase a bit.  Perhaps add Str or Dex instead of just bumping Con to be interesting.
HD sounds good for effective rebuking level.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 5, 2010)

I like damage to multiple ability scores for this poison--Str and Con? I agree that these guys should get webs.


----------



## Shade (Jan 5, 2010)

Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 5, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> Should they be hunting spiders, or give 'em webs as well?
> 
> ...




Definitely yes to all of the above.

I like the idea of Spider Queens being able to speak. Maybe Abyssal and Undercommon?



demiurge1138 said:


> I like damage to multiple ability scores for this poison--Str and Con? I agree that these guys should get webs.




The idea of increasing the damage and/or number of abilities damaged sounds fine to me.

I was thinking Con and Dex damage for the venom, but Con and Str is just as good.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 5, 2010)

Abyssal and Undercommon as languages totally make sense. I'm definitely getting a Shelob vibe from these.


----------



## Shade (Jan 6, 2010)

Updated.

Borrowing from the lycanthrope...

Spider Empathy (Ex): Spider queens can communicate and empathize with any spider or arachnoid creature. This gives them a +4 racial bonus on checks when influencing the creature's attitude and allows the communication of simple concepts and (if the creature is friendly) commands, such as "friend," "foe," "flee," and "attack."

And how about this?

Venom-Bolstering Aura (Su):  A spider queen continuously emanates a supernatural aura that increases the toxicity of venom.  The save DCs of all poison attacks made within 60 feet of a spider queen increase by +2.  The spider queen benefits from her own aura.

Should we make her immune to poison, to avoid this backfiring against her?


----------



## freyar (Jan 6, 2010)

Those look good, and I like immunity to poison.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 7, 2010)

Venom aura and poison immunity are good.

The Shelob-like qualities of this monster are making me want to give them light sensitivity/blindness as an SQ.


----------



## Shade (Jan 7, 2010)

Great idea!  I think I prefer sensitivity to blindness.

Updated.

Any more abilities, or move on to feats and skills?


----------



## freyar (Jan 7, 2010)

I prefer sensitivity as well.  I'm personally happy with the special abilities we have.

Listen 6, Spot 6?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 8, 2010)

Spiders tend to be stealthy, so I think we should give them Hide and Move Silently in addition to Listen and Spot. Three ranks of each?


----------



## freyar (Jan 8, 2010)

Sure.


----------



## Shade (Jan 11, 2010)

Sounds good.  Updated.

Feats: 4
Phase spider has Ability Focus (poison) and Improved Initiative, both of which seem applicable here as well.

Maybe Extra Turning as another feat?

Base attack is high enough for Improved Critical (bite).


----------



## freyar (Jan 11, 2010)

Those feats appeal.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 12, 2010)

freyar said:


> I prefer sensitivity as well.  I'm personally happy with the special abilities we have.




So am I. There are plenty of other SA they could have, but I don't feel they need them.



freyar said:


> Listen 6, Spot 6?




I prefer Demiurge's three ranks of each. That doesn't give them terribly high modifiers, so maybe we should boost their racial bonuses?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 12, 2010)

Shade said:


> Sounds good.  Updated.
> 
> Feats: 4
> Phase spider has Ability Focus (poison) and Improved Initiative, both of which seem applicable here as well.
> ...




Those'll suit me.


----------



## Shade (Jan 12, 2010)

Updated.

The skill modifiers aren't too shabby.  I'd recommend dropping Listen altogether, and shifting those ranks to Spot.  The Hide and Move Silently modifiers, while not great, are quite good while in a web.

Environment: Any land and underground?

Organization: Solitary or x (1 plus x monstrous spiders of various sizes)

Challenge Rating: x

Treasure: 1/10 coins; 50% goods; 50% items?  (like most spiders)

Alignment: Originally, they were chaotic evil, but neutral evil seems a better fit to me.  Maybe simply "always evil"?

A typical spider queen’s body is x feet long. It weighs about x pounds.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 12, 2010)

A cluster of 1 spider queen and 2-8 monstrous spiders of Small to Large size?

I still support the ranks in Listen. It's not great at it, but it'll help (especially if there are invisible foes, etc).

Any evil and the environment seem right to me. CR is either 7 or 8. They're a good synergy monster for their spidery minions.


----------



## Shade (Jan 12, 2010)

No problem.  I'm not all that concerned about the ranks in Listen and Spot, since it's got tremorsense.  

Updated.

Do we want to make these thick n' hairy, long and slender, or allow for variations like normal spiders?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 12, 2010)

demiurge1138 said:


> A cluster of 1 spider queen and 2-8 monstrous spiders of Small to Large size?




I'd prefer a "court" of spiders to a cluster. They are royalty, after all. Oh, and I'd rather have a greater number of spiders, something like 1 consort (a phase spider or Huge monstrous spider), 2-8 Large spiders and 2-20 Medium spiders.



demiurge1138 said:


> I still support the ranks in Listen. It's not great at it, but it'll help (especially if there are invisible foes, etc).




While I do like Listen for them, it'd probably be easier just to boost their tremorsense to tremorsight...



demiurge1138 said:


> Any evil and the environment seem right to me. CR is either 7 or 8. They're a good synergy monster for their spidery minions.




I'd go for "Usually neutral evil" like the 3E drow.

The environment is good, and I'd go for CR7.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 12, 2010)

Shade said:


> Do we want to make these thick n' hairy, long and slender, or allow for variations like normal spiders?




I imagine them looking like gigantic black widows, except the red mark on their abdomen is shaped like a crown instead of an hourglass.

Yes, I know it's a bit corny.

As for their size and weight, how about making them a half-size larger than a phase spider?

Large phase spider: Body 8 feet long, weight 700 pounds.
Huge phase spider: Body 16 feet long, weight 5600 pounds.

=> Spider Queen: Body 12 feet long, weight 2400 pounds. Legspan ~20 feet?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 12, 2010)

Shade said:


> http://www.enworld.org/forum/5045932-post839.htmlTreasure: 1/10 coins; 50% goods; 50% items?  (like most spiders)




The usual spider treasure is fine.

I did wonder about Standard treasure to give them something to manipulate other sapients with, but they're not that bright so probably do not plan ahead that far.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 13, 2010)

Well, there's no such thing as tremorsight. I prefer a wide variety of spider-types for spider queens, and in the flavor text mention that these are giant monstrous spiders grown intelligent after surviving for millennia.


----------



## freyar (Jan 13, 2010)

Well, I think I'm good with everything here.  I like demiurge's flavor text.


----------



## Shade (Jan 13, 2010)

Updated.  I blended everyone's ideas.

Look OK?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 13, 2010)

demiurge1138 said:


> Well, there's no such thing as tremorsight. I prefer a wide variety of spider-types for spider queens, and in the flavor text mention that these are giant monstrous spiders grown intelligent after surviving for millennia.




Well there is in my game, it's just blindsight that works through the ground.

Or we could give the Spider Queen regular blindsight instead (or as well) as tremorsense.


----------



## Shade (Jan 13, 2010)

She's probably good enough without it.

Anything else left for this one?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 14, 2010)

I think she's good to go!


----------



## Cleon (Jan 15, 2010)

demiurge1138 said:


> I think she's good to go!




Let me just check the entry...

It looks good to go apart from three minor quibbles.

There's an "X/day" in the Spider Growth description which should be a number - if my memory serves me right we'd decided on 3/day.

The "always" in the combat tactics "Spider queens are always accompanied by monstrous spiders of various sizes" is at odds with the Organization entry, which lists Solitary as an option. Perhaps change it to "Spider queens are _*usually*_ accompanied by monstrous spiders of various sizes"?

Its Spider Empathy special quality has no description in the Combat entry.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 15, 2010)

Oops! This was a double post of #573, so I've deleted the text.


----------



## Shade (Jan 15, 2010)

Nice catches.   I look at these things so many times that I often miss glaring omissions.

Updated.


----------



## freyar (Jan 16, 2010)

Now I think it looks good.


----------



## Shade (Sep 15, 2010)

*Vilstrak, Great*
AC: 2; HD: 3; Mv: 9; Int: Low; Size: L; Align: N;
THACO: 16; Att: 2; Dmg: 1d4+1;
Spec Attack: Suprise; Spec Def: None; EXP: 14

Greater vilstraks are giant vilstraks, also called "marl muggers" or "tunnel thugs." A vilstrak's stony surface provides it with both excellent protection and the uncanny ability to physically merge with earth or stone.

Originally appeared in Treasures of the Savage Frontier Adventure Journal (1992).

Compared to the standard Vilstrak, these are essentially just one size category larger and have 3 HD.

Here's the Tome of Horrors conversion of the standard vilstrak...


*VILSTRAK (TUNNEL THUG)*
Medium Aberration
Hit Dice: 1d8+1 (5 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 18 (+8 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/+2
Attack: Slam +2 melee (1d4+2)
Full Attack: 2 slams +2 melee (1d4+2)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., merge with earth
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +0, Will +2
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 8
Skills: Hide +2*, Listen +3, Spot +3
Feats: Alertness
Environment: Underground
Organization: Gang (2-5) or band (6-20)
Challenge Rating: 1/2
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually neutral (evil tendencies)
Advancement: 2-3 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: —

_This creature is a bipedal man-sized semi-humanoid seemingly carved of stone. It has an insect-like head, long, large arms, and thick, trunk-like legs that end in hoof-like feet._

Vilstraks (or tunnel thugs) dwell underground, away from the surface world. Though they have no allergy or reaction to sunlight, they disdain its existence, preferring the cold, damp blackness of their underground world. A vilstrak’s lair is a “pocket” formed deep inside the earth. These pockets have no exits or entrances and are only reachable by those who can pass through stone or earth.

A typical vilstrak stands 6 feet tall and weighs about 200 pounds. Its arms have an extra joint between the elbow and wrist, and its arms end in large, powerful fists of stone. Vilstraks are gray or brown.

Vilstraks speak Terran.

Combat
Vilstraks are peaceful creatures who avoid combat if possible. They do take great joy and pride in robbing those that invade their territory. A favored tactic of the vilstrak is to hide inside the wall of a dungeon corridor and spring out when prey passes nearby.

Merge with Earth (Su): A vilstrak can merge with earth or stone at will as a standard action. This ability is similar to a meld into stone spell (caster level 12th), except that a vilstrak can see what goes on outside and it can remain merged as long as it desires.

Skills: *Vilstraks have a +8 racial bonus on Hide checks when in rocky surroundings.


----------



## Shade (Sep 15, 2010)

Based on the ToH version, I'd recommend we boost them to 4 HD, continuing the Advancement progression.

So Large, 4 HD, usual Str and Con size bonuses, and leave Dex unchanged?


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Sep 16, 2010)

I would also change Alignment from Usually neutral (evil tendencies) to Usually neutral evil. I have no idea why they kept alignment tendencies in the Tomes of Horrors; it's an archaic concept rendered obsolete by the way monster alignments are handled in 3e.


----------



## Shade (Sep 16, 2010)

GrayLinnorm said:


> I would also change Alignment from Usually neutral (evil tendencies) to Usually neutral evil. I have no idea why they kept alignment tendencies in the Tomes of Horrors; it's an archaic concept rendered obsolete by the way monster alignments are handled in 3e.




Good idea.

Added to Homebrews.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 17, 2010)

Hmm, I remember the Vilstrak from the original _Monster Manual II_, but I never knew they had big brothers & sisters.

Maybe give them tremorsense, blindsense or blindsight so they actually have some idea where they're going when melding through stone?


----------



## freyar (Sep 19, 2010)

Here's something I don't understand about the ToH conversion.  The spell meld into stone doesn't allow movement through stone, just absorption into the surface of the rock AFAICT.  You even have to exit the stone through the same surface you enter.  So how do vilstraks get into their lairs?  Wouldn't earth glide make more sense?

I'd also probably go with tremorsense like a xorn.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 20, 2010)

freyar said:


> Here's something I don't understand about the ToH conversion.  The spell meld into stone doesn't allow movement through stone, just absorption into the surface of the rock AFAICT.  You even have to exit the stone through the same surface you enter.  So how do vilstraks get into their lairs?  Wouldn't earth glide make more sense




If I remember correctly, 3E _meld into stone _only requires the subject to remain in contact with a surface of the stone, so in theory if their lair's cavity is within arm's reach of a main cave they just need to transfer their contact between lair and cave (or vica versa). Tha might explain why their lairs are often discovered by adventurers, since they can only be behind a few feet of rock.

Earth Glide is a viable alternative, though.



freyar said:


> I'd also probably go with tremorsense like a xorn.




Yes, I prefer tremorsense of those options too.


----------



## Shade (Sep 20, 2010)

Tremorsense and earth glide are perfectly acceptable to me.

Updated.

Feats: Alertness, 1 more

Organization: Should we add some (lesser) vilstrak to the mix?
Vilstrak have Gang (2-5) or band (6-20)

Challenge Rating: 2?

Advancement: 5-x HD (Large)

A great vilstrak stands x feet tall and weighs about x pounds. Vilstraks are gray or brown.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 20, 2010)

Shade said:


> Tremorsense and earth glide are perfectly acceptable to me.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> Feats: Alertness, 1 more




Lightning Reflexes? Don't care for that +1 Reflex save much.



Shade said:


> Organization: Should we add some (lesser) vilstrak to the mix?
> Vilstrak have Gang (2-5) or band (6-20)




I'm seeing band (4-20) on (6-20) in the CC.

Regardless, I think having them mix with regular Vilstrak makes sense. How about one of the following:

*Organization #1:* Solitary, gang (2-5), band (1-4 plus 3-12 vilstrak) or mob (4-10 plus 5-30 vilstrak)

*Organization #2:* Solitary, gang (2-5), band (4-20) or mob (2-20 plus 5-40 vilstrak)

I slightly prefer #1, but I'm not that fussed either way.



Shade said:


> Challenge Rating: 2?




I'd make it CR3. Their earth glide makes it very difficult to tackle them from a distance, they can just pop out of the rock in the midst of the party's spellcasters and let rip, and if the fight turns against them they can flee the same way.

Besides, their combat capabilities are pretty good, slightly better than the CR3 standard-issue ogre:

*SRD Ogre:* AC 16, hp 29, greatclub +8 melee (2d8+7) - av. damage 16.
*Great Vilstrak:* AC 19, hp 30, 2 slams +8 melee (1d6+6) - av. dam 19.



Shade said:


> Advancement: 5-x HD (Large)




Well regular vilstrak don't advance in size, being 1-3 HD (Medium), so how about Advancement: 5-12 HD (Large)?



Shade said:


> A great vilstrak stands x feet tall and weighs about x pounds. Vilstraks are gray or brown.




I'd make them roughly ogre sized. "A great vilstrak stands 9 feet tall and weighs about 600 pounds."


----------



## freyar (Sep 21, 2010)

Cleon's suggestions all sound about right to me.


----------



## Shade (Sep 21, 2010)

Yes, to me as well.

Updated.  Finished?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 21, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yes, to me as well.
> 
> Updated.  Finished?




Shouldn't its Hide be +1*?

It's got 7 SP from its HD, so I reckon it's got a rank each in Listen and Spot and 5 ranks in Hide. With a -4 size penalty and no Dex bonus I don't see how it could be Hide +2*.

Apart from that it's good to go.


----------



## Shade (Sep 21, 2010)

Fixed.  You've leveled recently in the proofreader prestige class!


----------



## Cleon (Sep 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> Fixed.  You've leveled recently in the proofreader prestige class!




The last thousand XP were the hardest.


----------

