# Dwarven kingdoms



## Morrus (Jun 20, 2014)

The main "under the mountain" dwarven kingdoms I'm familiar with are all decrepit - Moria, the Hobbit one, Thorbardin from Dragonlance.

What other examples of that meme are there (I'm not familiar with Forgotten Realms - I expect is has an undermountain dwarf place?)

Are any in their prime? Bustling with industry and trade and stuff? Those things always seem to talk of long-lost prosperity!


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## DrunkonDuty (Jun 20, 2014)

It is something of a trope isn't it. 

Dwarves are always saying that the rest works of their fathers were truly wondrous and that today's Dwarf cities aren't a patch on what they used to be like. It makes me wonder if maybe it's just the pessimistic, grumpy old bugger Dwarven point of view - "Things were better then. It's all rubbish nowadays."

Greyhawk has a few living, vibrant Dwarven Kingdoms. One of the Uleks (Principallity IIRC) is the most memorable. (Unless you count my own Dwarf realm that I created for a campaign a few years back. ;-) )


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## Umbran (Jun 20, 2014)

DrunkonDuty said:


> It is something of a trope isn't it.




Well, thank Tolkien for that.

I have an image in my head from a novel that had a thriving dwarven kingdom under the mountains.  I just can't remember what it was in.  I'll look through my library...


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## DrunkonDuty (Jun 20, 2014)

> Well, thank Tolkien for that.




I do, I do.

Oddly all his Elven realms suffered from a similar problem (yes it was a theme of the story) BUT in RPGs there are many more vibrant, living Elf communities. Or at least that's what it feels like to me. 

So somehow the Elves dodged the trope while the Dwarves copped it full in the face. Sneaky, dodgy, bloody Elves.


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## GMMichael (Jun 20, 2014)

Morrus said:


> What other examples of that meme are there (I'm not familiar with Forgotten Realms - I expect is has an undermountain dwarf place?)
> 
> Are any in their prime? Bustling with industry and trade and stuff?




Dwemer, Skyrim, the Elder Scrolls.  The dwarven ruins are definitely NOT in their prime, but there's plenty of industry and bustling going on there.

They have spider-robots that crawl around, chiseling.

And dwarven spheres - basically T800s on balls.

And then there's the dwarven centurions, a.k.a. iron golems.  Don't mess.


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## Jan van Leyden (Jun 20, 2014)

Earthdawn's Throal. Due to the it's (recent) history, the world is just recovering from disaster. The Throalian dwarves have taken over a leadership role, trying to coordinate the rebuilding of their area of the world.

They don't exactly evoke images of gigantic caves full of smithies, but their kingdom is under the mountains, at least.


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## Khaalis (Jun 20, 2014)

Interesting question. Why most people force dwarves into the role of a declining species is beyond me. Yes I get Tolkien, but that was then, this is now. Move on.

Some non-declining Dwarves I can think of off the top of my head...
* Warhammer FRP
* Pathfinder (only slightly in decline due to war)
* Forgotten Realms has many thriving dwarven cultures
* Shadowrun dwarves are not typical Tolkien dwarves, but they also don't have a huge population like Orcs and Trolls.
* While not a P&P RPG, World of Warcraft Dwarves also break the Tolkien mold.

On a side note, Dwarves in my homebrew are also a thriving species, and not in decline, though they are closer to Norse dwarves than Tolkien dwarves. 

I guess it really comes down to the question of what you want Dwarves to be. I get the personal impression that Most RPGs only bother including them as a half-hearted afterthought as they feel they are one of the Tolkien sacred cows. I much prefer to see them get a more unique niche.


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## gamerprinter (Jun 20, 2014)

Undermountain is the creation of the mad wizard Hallister, its not a dwarf construction.

Not exactly a full dwarven mine/community, but just a mine, but here's a map I did with a currently used map - not decrepit... This is not published, but potentially could be, if I chose to finish the communal areas in a different layer map.


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## scourger (Jun 22, 2014)

*Karak Azgal* in WFRP is a thriving dwarf city built atop dwarven ruins - ironically partly thriving on the licensed looting of the ruins below.  I liked it so much that I kept the module even once I traded off the game.  

*Hammerfast* is a D&D 4e dwarven city built in an ancient dwarven necropolis once conquered & looted by orcs.  An interesting bit allowing both ghosts & orcs.  I bought this module even though I never got that version of the game.  

I would run an all-dwarf in either setting.


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## Scrivener of Doom (Jun 22, 2014)

gamerprinter said:


> Undermountain is the creation of the mad wizard Hallister, its not a dwarf construction.(snip)




Undermountain was created by the Melairkyn dwarves. Halaster is/was a later squatter.
 [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION]: FR has some functioning dwarven communities that are not in decline: the Great Rift (pre-4E)/East Rift (4E) and Mithral Hall are two that spring to mind.


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## GMMichael (Jun 22, 2014)

gamerprinter said:


> Not exactly a full dwarven mine/community,  but just a mine, but here's a map I did with a currently used map -




How great is this?  Nice job, Michael!

I'll lay some blame on the Fantasy Father for dwarfs' permanent decline.  I'll admit, it wasn't until I saw a trailer for some console game (maybe Dragon Age?), in which a bald dwarf answers some questions in a dimly lit room, that I said to myself, "wait, why must dwarfs have beards?"

It was all downhill from there.  Underhill, if you will.


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## tuxgeo (Jun 22, 2014)

Mythology: 

. . . 
"Very few beings explicitly identifiable as dwarfs appear in the Poetic Edda and Prose Edda and have quite diverse roles: murderous creators who create the mead of poetry, 'reluctant donors' of important artifacts with magical qualities, or sexual predators who lust after goddesses.[5] *They are primarily associated with metalsmithing, and also with death*; as in the story of King Sveigðir *in Ynglinga saga, the first segment of the Heimskringla, the doorways in the mountains that they guard may be regarded as doors between worlds*.[6] One dwarf, Alvíss, claimed the hand of the god Thor's daughter Þrúðr in marriage, but when kept talking until daybreak, turned to stone much like some accounts of trolls.[7]" 
. . . 

So they guard the doorways in the mountains -- _much as the soldiers of a mountain kingdom might_. This is long before Tolkien. 

Oddly, the old Northern myths seem to confuse _dwarfs_ with _trolls_. (They would make good jokesters: "the _Drolls_.") 
In Peer Gynt, the "Mountain King" is listed as a troll; but the word "dwarf" might also have been applicable to him.


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## Vicente (Jun 23, 2014)

I seem to remember the Dwarven cities in Dragon Age were on its prime (fuzzy memories, I may be wrong). I think that's the case also in Warcraft.


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## tomBitonti (Jun 23, 2014)

WHFRP dwarves are in serious decline: Most of their Karaks are overtaken by Skaven or Orcs.  In PathFinder, only a few of the Sky Citadels are still occupied by dwarves, the rest in ruins or occupied by monsters.

Thx!

TomB


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## Voadam (Jun 23, 2014)

I concur that WFRP dwarves are in decline as are the Pathfinder Golarion dwarves. WFRP ones were big world players but had clashes with the elves and greenskins that wore away their prominence and numbers. 

Forgotten Realms dwarves were in decline in 1e and 2e with lost cities like Under Illefarn but in 3e they gave them the Thunder Blessing which increased their numbers and lead to a bit of a resurgence.

In Goodman Games DCC 35 Gazetteer of the Known Realms the campaign setting history has a past age be one of elves and dwarves being prominent empires of the world that have fallen, leading to the current age of Man.

In the Scarred Lands Burok Torn is a huge active dwarven undermountain city filled with some of the world's best wizards is being worn away by war on two fronts against a LE human empire and against dark elves from below.

In Ptolus the grailwarden dwarves were once the big partners to the human empire providing guns but their numbers are down and they are in decline and the Stonelost ones were driven from their homes under Ptolus by dark elves.

Bucking the trend along with Eathdawn's Throal is Mayfair Games' AD&D Dwarves sourcebook. It presents a dwarven city in a mountain that is active and thriving.


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## Sword of Spirit (Jun 23, 2014)

I've been re-reading the Lord of the Rings, and just last night I was reading through the council of Elrond chapter. Apparently they created a thriving dwarven kingdom under the lonely mountain after they took it back from Smaug. Also, it seems there are _a lot_ of dwarves travelling all the time. More than humans is the impression you get. So even in Tolkien there are thriving dwarven kingdoms in the current storyline.

On a side note, I've decided that I think the movies are better. The book reads like a spruced up account of an RPG campaign. The protagonists are frequently experiencing delays that have nothing much to add to the plot, pittering around getting their stuff together before continuing their journeys, ending up having less interesting encounters when better ones are begging to be had (like fighting the ringwraiths in a little hollow at the base of Weathertop, rather than right on top like in the movie) and generally doing a lot of things that make for a better immersive world experience than actual story.


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## gamerprinter (Jun 23, 2014)

Sword of Spirit said:


> On a side note, I've decided that I think the movies are better. The book reads like a spruced up account of an RPG campaign. The protagonists are frequently experiencing delays that have nothing much to add to the plot, pittering around getting their stuff together before continuing their journeys, ending up having less interesting encounters when better ones are begging to be had (like fighting the ringwraiths in a little hollow at the base of Weathertop, rather than right on top like in the movie) and generally doing a lot of things that make for a better immersive world experience than actual story.




Strange, in that The One Ring RPG which most claim most closely cleaves to the Lord of the Rings as an RPG, has for its emphasis the long and arduous journey between locations with roleplay, and combat are under emphasized in that game. So apparently the publisher of the One Ring and its fans think the complete opposite to your point. The pittering around and continuing on journeys, is the point to Lord of the Rings story with events like Weathertop, Mines of Moria as highlights to the game that is mostly about the journey. Doing it how you suggest is more like D&D, and nothing like the real Lord of the Rings. Its strange because many fans say the One Ring is an excellent adaption of Tolkien's works as an RPG, thus more like the books and less like the movies. It seems both fans and publisher favor conditions opposite to your point.


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## Sword of Spirit (Jun 23, 2014)

gamerprinter said:


> Strange, in that The One Ring RPG which most claim most closely cleaves to the Lord of the Rings as an RPG, has for its emphasis the long and arduous journey between locations with roleplay, and combat are under emphasized in that game. So apparently the publisher of the One Ring and its fans think the complete opposite to your point. The pittering around and continuing on journeys, is the point to Lord of the Rings story with events like Weathertop, Mines of Moria as highlights to the game that is mostly about the journey. Doing it how you suggest is more like D&D, and nothing like the real Lord of the Rings. Its strange because many fans say the One Ring is an excellent adaption of Tolkien's works as an RPG, thus more like the books and less like the movies. It seems both fans and publisher favor conditions opposite to your point.




Yeah, basically what I'm saying is that the books seem more like simulationist RPGs than narrativist stories (compared to the movies). Again demonstrating that my tastes change drastically based on format. In _D&D, _I really want simulationism. I'd probably love the One Ring if is supports that style of play (although in most non-D&D RPGs I prefer narrativism). In _a story_, however, I really want narrativism. The Lord of the Rings movies are very narrativist--like almost all movies. They give us story now, highlight the most interesting and exciting points, and skip scene to where we want to be. The exact same format is followed in the majority of modern books, just stretched out a bit.

I'm enough a product of modern entertainment that I don't want to read/watch someone else's  RPG campaign as primary recreation. I'd rather _play_ the books, but I'd rather _read_  the movies.


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## DrunkonDuty (Jun 24, 2014)

Of course what no one has dared say is that we WANT the Dwarven realms to fail and fall.
It gives us immense dungeons full of monsters and traps to explore.
If we want to save the Dwarves we have to change our own attitudes first!


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## Lwaxy (Jun 25, 2014)

Or we could just say the dwarves went on to new pastures and forgot to close shop 

The German fantasy stories usually have their dwarf realms intact.


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## Tush Hog (Jun 25, 2014)

As others have mentioned, the Gold Dwarves of the Forgotten Realms were said to be quite prosperous and expanding.

In Dwarves Deep, they were said to have an army around 200,000-300,000!

a few other places it was mentioned they had taken warfare to a whole different level with their technology. 

I always thought this would be a fascinating place to set some adventures.


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## Mercurius (Jun 25, 2014)

I was going to mention Throal - one of the best. Also, check out the dwarven kingdom for the Fighting Fantasy world, Titan. I remember liking that quite a bit. I think the mountain was capped in gold.



Umbran said:


> Well, thank Tolkien for that.




You mean thank mythology, in particular Norse but European in general.



Khaalis said:


> Interesting question. Why most people force dwarves into the role of a declining species is beyond me. Yes I get Tolkien, but that was then, this is now. Move on.




Again, it isn't only Tolkien, who based his work on Northern European mythology. In fact, JRR said something to the effect that he was trying to create a kind of "ur-mythos" for Europe.

But as for why dwarves are usually in decline, I think it has to do with the common trope (in myths and Tolkien) of the rise of humans and the falling away of the "elder age." This is archeypal stuff, characteristic to a lot of fantasy.

Now you could buck the trend and do something like Dawnforge, when the elder age is just getting under way. Or you could do something in which humans are primitive and elves and dwarves are at their height, and they look down upon--even enslave--humans. Hmmm...that could be very interesting.


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## DM Howard (Jun 26, 2014)

There are several Dwarven kingdoms in the Kingdoms of Kalamar campaign setting.  One has even been taken over and used for slave labor.  The demi-humans in that setting seem to be more on par with humans (even if humans are more numerous) and don't take and back talk from anybody.


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## arnon (Jun 27, 2014)

There are the dwarves of Dawnforge (by FFG,  anyone remember? ),  an old and prosperous culture.  But that is generally the way in Dawnforge,  it is a setting where all the great nations &  empires are forming,  before the inevitable decline which many fantasy worlds depict.


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## Scrivener of Doom (Jun 27, 2014)

arnon said:


> There are the dwarves of Dawnforge (by FFG,  anyone remember? ),  an old and prosperous culture.  But that is generally the way in Dawnforge,  it is a setting where all the great nations &  empires are forming,  before the inevitable decline which many fantasy worlds depict.




FFG produced three great d20 settings with Dawnforge, Midnight, and Dragonstar. All three are on my gaming bucket list.


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## Lwaxy (Jun 29, 2014)

Now I need to check Dragonstar out, the other 2 are among my favs.


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