# Enterprise 05-26-04



## Mark (May 25, 2004)

*Enterprise - "Zero Hour"*

_Archer tries to coax a traumatized Hoshi into using her decryption skills to disable the doomsday weapon before the Reptilians can use it to destroy Earth as the Enterprise embarks on a desperate mission of its own to cripple the rest of the spheres._

Cast: Scott Bakula, Connor Trinneer, Jolene Blalock, Dominic Keating, Anthony Montgomery, Linda Park, John Billingsley.

Guest(s): Rick Worthy as Xindi Sloth, Tucker Smallwood as Xindi-Humanoid, Scott MacDonald as Reptilian Commander, Josette DiCarlo as Sphere Builder Woman, Mary Mara as Sphere-Builder Presage, Ruth Williamson as Sphere-Builder Primary, Matt Winston as Daniels, and Jeffrey Combs as Shran.

And here is the season finale...


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## Mark (May 26, 2004)

I suppose it is a sign of the times that fewer folks are posting in advance of the episode than on previous weeks.  All indications are that we will be seeing another season and that these last few episodes are being generally well received, so perhaps folks are waiting to view the show rather than discussing it ahead of time.  Personally, I am looking forward to it and glad that the franchise has guarenteed that we won't be losing another Sci-Fi show ahead of its full run (which I belive should be a minimum of five years given the nature of things).


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## Napftor (May 26, 2004)

Well, besides rampant speculation, there really isn't much to discuss until the episode airs.  That said, I hope it is well done and well received by the masses.  To be honest, Berman and Braga together do not have my vote of confidence.  After all, where have they been lately in terms of writing?  And now they're swooping in to do the finale?  We'll see...


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## Wycen (May 26, 2004)

I think much of it has to do with using the thread for the previous weeks episode as well.  Personally I plan to blow off my Wednesday night game to watch it.


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## Mark (May 26, 2004)

Napftor said:
			
		

> Well, besides rampant speculation, there really isn't much to discuss until the episode airs.  That said, I hope it is well done and well received by the masses.  To be honest, Berman and Braga together do not have my vote of confidence.  After all, where have they been lately in terms of writing?  And now they're swooping in to do the finale?  We'll see...




They only seem to be "at the helm" when discussions of the show are on the downslide.  While these last few weeks have been well-recived, I haven't seen much in the way of "attaboys" cast their way.  For good or ill, even your post seems to be saying that they deserve only the credit for whatever failures the series might garner but none of the successes.  I've read countless posts of folks saying they should increase the input of outside writers but if that has happened and is the reason for the recent success you seem to be saying that is not something for which they deserve credit.  Except for the paychecks, I simply don't understand why they put up with you... 



			
				Wycen said:
			
		

> I think much of it has to do with using the thread for the previous weeks episode as well.  Personally I plan to blow off my Wednesday night game to watch it.




You, sir, are a true fan!   (I'll be watching, as well, of course, as I do almost every week ... unless the call of the ever decreasing wild rears its fair head.)


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## Napftor (May 26, 2004)

Mark said:
			
		

> They only seem to be "at the helm" when discussions of the show are on the downslide.  While these last few weeks have been well-recived, I haven't seen much in the way of "attaboys" cast their way.  For good or ill, even your post seems to be saying that they deserve only the credit for whatever failures the series might garner but none of the successes.  I've read countless posts of folks saying they should increase the input of outside writers but if that has happened and is the reason for the recent success you seem to be saying that is not something for which they deserve credit.  Except for the paychecks, I simply don't understand why they put up with you...




Actually, I'm not saying any of that.    

I've never once uttered that B&B are to blame for anything.  I know they approve everything that goes on the air, and I've enjoyed what I've seen lately, but my comments were aimed at their writing abilities _only_.  Don't read too much into my posts there, Mark.


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## Red Spire Press (May 26, 2004)

One reason there may not be a lot of pre-airring discussion is that there aren't really any unknowns as the season nears completion. It's pretty obvious what will happen, and as entertaining as the lead up episodes have been -- some of the best episodes of Enterprise, i think, though Vulcan zombies are still my personal favorite -- they're very predictable.


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## Mark (May 26, 2004)

Napftor said:
			
		

> Actually, I'm not saying any of that.
> 
> I've never once uttered that B&B are to blame for anything.  I know they approve everything that goes on the air, and I've enjoyed what I've seen lately, but my comments were aimed at their writing abilities _only_.  Don't read too much into my posts there, Mark.




  Fair enough. 

There seems to be three camps... Those who are fine enough with B&B wriiting, those that think B&B lost it, and those that think B&B never had it.  I'll assume by the "After all, where have they been lately in terms of writing?" post that you feel they once had a handle on the writing but have dropped the ball in that regard (correct me if I am wrong).  What of their writing did you like and when do you think they took a wrong turn?


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## Mark (May 26, 2004)

Red Spire Press said:
			
		

> One reason there may not be a lot of pre-airring discussion is that there aren't really any unknowns as the season nears completion. It's pretty obvious what will happen, and as entertaining as the lead up episodes have been -- some of the best episodes of Enterprise, i think, though Vulcan zombies are still my personal favorite -- they're very predictable.




That might be the case, seemingly, (and I, too, very much enjoyed the Vulcan Zombies), but the 



Spoiler



deaths of Major Hayes and Degra both


 took me by surprise.


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## Napftor (May 26, 2004)

Mark said:
			
		

> Fair enough.
> 
> There seems to be three camps... Those who are fine enough with B&B wriiting, those that think B&B lost it, and those that think B&B never had it.  I'll assume by the "After all, where have they been lately in terms of writing?" post that you feel they once had a handle on the writing but have dropped the ball in that regard (correct me if I am wrong).  What of their writing did you like and when do you think they took a wrong turn?




They have the pacing and the elements down as evidenced by the series premiere and the Shockwave two-parter.  But what they don't have is good characterization.  They seem to think that throwing the characters into sexual situations with each other makes for good TV/ratings.  Well, how about we get to know the characters first?  Wasn't TNG well on its way into the latter half of the series before we had Worf having feelings for Troi, much less any other sexual interaction among the main characters?

B&B know good drama but I'm not certain they know how to make the charcacters function inside it.  Does that make any sense?  I'm tempted to lay the blame on Berman.  Braga & Moore are of course top notch and I've always enjoyed Braga's solo writing, but I'm hard pressed to name any good Berman writing credits (are there any solo eps from him?).  His inexperience in this department may be what's detracting from the dialogue and interactions.  Don't know for sure, of course.  And I hope tonight's episode can prove me wrong!


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## Tom Cashel (May 26, 2004)

Looking forward to tonight's episode...

I think it'll be good, but I'm worried. _Star Trek_ is always better at the set-up than the resolution.


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## myrdden (May 26, 2004)

Tom Cashel said:
			
		

> Looking forward to tonight's episode...
> 
> I think it'll be good, but I'm worried. _Star Trek_ is always better at the set-up than the resolution.




Ain't that the truth.  That has always been a problem with each of the series I watched (TNG, DS9 and ENT...TOS doesn't count).

I'll fess up and say that I have not been a big fan of this season or the direction that the show has taken, but the last few episodes have been entertaining and worth my time watching.  As long as I can say the same about the final episode, I really can't complain.

As long as you start and end strong, no one will remember the middle.  Well...except for Trekkies...they remember EVERYTHING in the series...


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## Envel (May 27, 2004)

i can't wait to see it.

  i can't believe i am going to say this but, the plot has my intrigued.

  only 3.3 hours till it starts (in my neck of the woods)!


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## clark411 (May 27, 2004)

I have to say, that ending was high comedy!  almost died of laughter


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## Crothian (May 27, 2004)

Okay..little wierd at the end.  I haven't really been watching but the plot was simple enough that I was able to follow.  Except for the guy at the very end, didn't recongize him or his race.


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## BrooklynKnight (May 27, 2004)

Spioiler





Christ, how much time travel is Braga gonna shove into the story!


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## LightPhoenix (May 27, 2004)

Ummm, wow.  I liked the episode, but that ending... wtf?

For one thing, 



Spoiler



wouldn't they have been able to tell that Earth wasn't the same?  I mean, seriously.

And I'm sorry, but introducing Nazis into _any _story is pretty much grounds for shark jumping.


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## BrooklynKnight (May 27, 2004)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Okay..little wierd at the end. I haven't really been watching but the plot was simple enough that I was able to follow. Except for the guy at the very end, didn't recongize him or his race.



I dont know who or what that guy is either. But he looks pissed, he's obviously a time traveler too.

I think Braga and Branan are going the "all of humanities most henious events were caused by alien intervention" story.


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## 2d6 (May 27, 2004)

loved it!



Spoiler



Putting the explosive on the reptilian's back - great!
The andorians showing up at the last minuet - great!

Super weapons, space fights, time travel Nazis and demonic looking aliens, what isn't to like


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## Crothian (May 27, 2004)

well, there can be arguements that Enterprise jumped the end of season one


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## Napftor (May 27, 2004)

Well, it was pretty good.  Not as much as the previous two episodes, but not bad.  But that ending...oooooh boy.  It makes me want to see season 4 next week.  I can't stand not knowing WTF happened until Sept.  I honestly have no theories...it's that wierd.


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## BrooklynKnight (May 27, 2004)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Ummm, wow. I liked the episode, but that ending... wtf?
> 
> For one thing,
> 
> ...



Someone edit the topic to put spoiler in there please...

Lets see, Nazi's are a staple Startrek Badguy.

From TOS to VOY and now ENT.

They COULD have, if they did what voyager did, scanned the atmopshere.

in ST4 they did that too...


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## BrooklynKnight (May 27, 2004)

Oh, let me add in that during that time period, yes even during WW2 ENT should have easily picked up radio transmissions from the surface. 

"I've scanned all frequenceies" is bull, cause all frequencies includes radio.


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## BrooklynKnight (May 27, 2004)

Napftor said:
			
		

> Well, it was pretty good. Not as much as the previous two episodes, but not bad. But that ending...oooooh boy. It makes me want to see season 4 next week. I can't stand not knowing WTF happened until Sept. I honestly have no theories...it's that wierd.



I'll explain it very simply.
The guy from the future tried to shift Archer out of the explosion.
Something went wrong and he got shifted into earths past. Why he was shifted to earth and not into space, well, thats a convinent writer plothole. Something about electrons and deflector dishes.

When he found out where Archer was he prolly shifted Enterrpise after she left the Aquatic ship.


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## Tiberius (May 27, 2004)

Well, the strange alien Nazi at the end may simply have been a vampire.   He was very reminiscent of the Master from Buffy.  I hope they don't take the "Germany was influenced by malevolent aliens/time travellers/time travelling aliens" route.

Still, the show did end in a manner different from the one I was expecting.  I had thought that Daniels had grabbed Archer before the Death Star blew, and would return him to Enterprise as soon as it was convenient.

EDIT: Wow, I need to learn to type faster.  While I was composing, at least 4 messages were posted!


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## thatdarncat (May 27, 2004)

Tiberius said:
			
		

> Well, the strange alien Nazi at the end may simply have been a vampire.   He was very reminiscent of the Master from Buffy.



So when do we see Spike?


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## Napftor (May 27, 2004)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> I'll explain it very simply.
> The guy from the future tried to shift Archer out of the explosion.
> Something went wrong and he got shifted into earths past. Why he was shifted to earth and not into space, well, thats a convinent writer plothole. Something about electrons and deflector dishes.
> 
> When he found out where Archer was he prolly shifted Enterrpise after she left the Aquatic ship.




Er...simple.  Riiiiight.


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## 2d6 (May 27, 2004)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> I'll explain it very simply.
> The guy from the future tried to shift Archer out of the explosion.
> Something went wrong and he got shifted into earths past. Why he was shifted to earth and not into space, well, thats a convinent writer plothole. Something about electrons and deflector dishes.
> 
> When he found out where Archer was he prolly shifted Enterrpise after she left the Aquatic ship.




That would be one explanation. It is possible that the "enemy" in the temporal cold war grabbed archer to deny Danials getting him out of the explosion. That would explain why Enterprise ended up in the past - Danials sent them back to get thier guy who is out of his reach.


Of course we all know that Paramount is still depreciating the Nazi uniforms they bought for all those Hierogens in Voyager; gotta use them or lose them


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## BrooklynKnight (May 27, 2004)

Napftor said:
			
		

> Er...simple. Riiiiight.



I'm a trekkie and own a bat'leth. Time Travel Paradoxes do not scare me.


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## Wolf72 (May 27, 2004)

Mark said:
			
		

> I suppose it is a sign of the times that fewer folks are posting in advance of the episode than on previous weeks.  All indications are that we will be seeing another season and that these last few episodes are being generally well received, so perhaps folks are waiting to view the show rather than discussing it ahead of time.  Personally, I am looking forward to it and glad that the franchise has guarenteed that we won't be losing another Sci-Fi show ahead of its full run (which I belive should be a minimum of five years given the nature of things).



52

taped it and still waiting to see it ... read up to 3rd post and no spoilers ... willpower folks, all will power!


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## Vocenoctum (May 27, 2004)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> I'll explain it very simply.
> The guy from the future tried to shift Archer out of the explosion.
> Something went wrong and he got shifted into earths past. Why he was shifted to earth and not into space, well, thats a convinent writer plothole. Something about electrons and deflector dishes.
> 
> When he found out where Archer was he prolly shifted Enterrpise after she left the Aquatic ship.




I havne't watched this season, or well, most of last. I don't really like the time travel stuff and its rampant. But, can the guy from the future actually shift an entire ship?

Personal Theory: that space station that got blown up created some kind of effect. It was experimental, so it must have had Time Particles in the Dilithium crystals.

It had to be a lingering effect, since Enterprise didn't travel back until they got near earth...

And, just once, I wish they'd smack into another time traveler when they went back. Enterprise-A should circle around and smack into another Enterprise, or maybe Voyager. Has Defiant come back this far?

I like space battles, too bad the whacky time travel plots have to get in the way of it all. And why are the Future Humans so wimpy? We only get one to counter the vast armies the other forces get? BAH!


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## Mark (May 27, 2004)

Looks like a Turtledovian plot to me...


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## Crothian (May 27, 2004)

Wasn't Defiant the Roswell spaceshift or at least involved with that somehow?  I know it was DS9, but I don't reacll if it was the Defiant or not.


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## Silver Moon (May 27, 2004)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> Lets see, Nazi's are a staple Startrek Badguy.



Actually they're the best villains for any series in any era.  I mean, how can you beat the Nazi's!  Heck, even this year's Angel show had an episode with them.   

Personally I thought the ending was unnecessary overkill in what would have otherwise been a near-perfect episode.


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## BrooklynKnight (May 27, 2004)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Wasn't Defiant the Roswell spaceshift or at least involved with that somehow? I know it was DS9, but I don't reacll if it was the Defiant or not.



No, that was Quark and his personal ship.


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## BrooklynKnight (May 27, 2004)

Silver Moon said:
			
		

> Actually they're the best villains for any series in any era. I mean, how can you beat the Nazi's! Heck, even this year's Angel show had an episode with them.
> 
> Personally I thought the ending was unnecessary overkill in what would have otherwise been a near-perfect episode.



Not really.

You cant have a startrek season finale without a cliffhanger leading into the first episode of the next season.


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## Green Knight (May 27, 2004)

Nazi aliens. 

"Rrrriiiiiiggggghhhhhhhht." 






 I think I'll stick to the DS9 re-runs on Spike TV. The Golden Shower Fetishists can keep watching Enterprise.


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## Cthulhudrew (May 27, 2004)

You know, I've generally liked Enterprise, but something bothers me about this season. Whatever happened to giving alien races *real* names. I mean- you've got all these members of the Xindi with race names like "reptilian", "arboreal", "aquatic", etc. Can't the writers be bothered to give the races their own names? It reeks to me of the whole "Species 742" or whatever those Borg killers were called back in the day. (And yes, I suppose Borg isn't terribly original either, but at least it's a name in keeping with a culture that prides itself on its lack of individuality).

Whatever happened to names like "Romulan", "Ferengi", "Klingon". Now we just get a generic description of the race's function- as if we couldn't tell from looking at them that the bug-looking-men are "insectoids".


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## Basin? (May 27, 2004)

They do have their own names, but translated into english it's "reptilian", "arboreal" etc. See how watching shows like Star Trek vastly improves your rationalizing skills?


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## Cthulhudrew (May 27, 2004)

Basin? said:
			
		

> They do have their own names, but translated into english it's "reptilian", "arboreal" etc. See how watching shows like Star Trek vastly improves your rationalizing skills?




That's good- I like that. But let's see how good your rationalizing skills really are, eh? 

*cracking knuckles*

How come certain races, like the insectoids, speak in an obviously alien tongue, but everyone else (such as the reptilians) speaks english?

(More seriously, one of the things I loved about this series in the first season was the fact that they didn't have universal translators, and thus needed Hoshi to help them with languages. As a sort of "linguistic hobbyist" that idea really intrigued me. Unfortunately, this season, at least, they seem to have ignored that completely.  )


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## Cthulhudrew (May 27, 2004)

Just watched the end of the episode (one of the drawbacks of living on the west coast- that and the sunny weather, warm beaches, gorgeous, scantily clad women... heh, heh). I think I know what happened at the end-

Archer was leaped into the body of a nazi soldier, in order that he can make right what once went wrong. And hoping each leap... will be the leap home.


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## Phineas Crow (May 27, 2004)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> ...Archer was leaped into the body of a nazi soldier, in order that he can make right what once went wrong. And hoping each leap... will be the leap home.




LOL, that's priceless.


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## Envel (May 27, 2004)

great episode.

 my favorite line was when Hoshi said, "i wouldn't miss it for the world."

 absolutely fantabulistic.

 although...
 i have had it up to here *puts hands above head* with the time travel crap.  whatever happened to good old fashioned, cheating the borg, dealing with internal affairs, or just shore leave gone bad?

 gald they got rid of him though (don't see button for black background so being vague).  he wasn't that good as time progressed.

 overall it was a season finale, setting up for next season.


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## BrooklynKnight (May 27, 2004)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> Just watched the end of the episode (one of the drawbacks of living on the west coast- that and the sunny weather, warm beaches, gorgeous, scantily clad women... heh, heh). I think I know what happened at the end-
> 
> Archer was leaped into the body of a nazi soldier, in order that he can make right what once went wrong. And hoping each leap... will be the leap home.



GOLD


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## LightPhoenix (May 27, 2004)

Eh, my explanation of the ending is much more simplistic... more temporal cold war crap, sent some alien back to help the Nazis.  The Nazis therefore win WWII, and now we're on present day, Nazis rule Earth.

You know, the idea of bloody Nazis just makes me not want to watch the next season.  If there is any single overused group of bad guys, it's the Nazis.  Screw original names for the Xindi, get something more original than Nazis!


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## Envel (May 27, 2004)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Eh, my explanation of the ending is much more simplistic... more temporal cold war crap, sent some alien back to help the Nazis. The Nazis therefore win WWII, and now we're on present day, Nazis rule Earth.
> 
> You know, the idea of bloody Nazis just makes me not want to watch the next season. If there is any single overused group of bad guys, it's the Nazis. Screw original names for the Xindi, get something more original than Nazis!



 right on!

 so far, all the "original" haven't been half bad.  I think that they will get out the situation in the first 2 episodes, realise they don't have a show, then make up another Xindi-esque plot line.


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## myrdden (May 27, 2004)

I'm not even sure what to say...that was an abyssmal finish.

I didn't even realize the switch from watching STAR TREK to QUANTUM LEAP.  Very subtle - although the "alien nazi" did remind me of the demons from Buffy/Angel.

I was expecting a mediochre ending (Trek is notorious for it when it comes to two parters in my experience), but this episode really makes me not want to watch next season.

What utter drek...


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## myrdden (May 27, 2004)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> Archer was leaped into the body of a nazi soldier, in order that he can make right what once went wrong. And hoping each leap... will be the leap home.





And Daniels can be his sidekick that no one can see!

Brilliant!


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## Envel (May 27, 2004)

myrdden said:
			
		

> I was expecting a mediochre ending (Trek is notorious for it when it comes to two parters in my experience), but this episode really makes me not want to watch next season.
> 
> What utter drek...



 the writer/idea people  did a good job of making you have a need to watch the next season.  very tricky they are.


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## Cthulhudrew (May 27, 2004)

myrdden said:
			
		

> And Daniels can be his sidekick that no one can see!
> 
> Brilliant!




He can be like the hologram doctor from Voyager.


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## myrdden (May 27, 2004)

Envel said:
			
		

> the writer/idea people  did a good job of making you have a need to watch the next season.  very tricky they are.




Except at this moment, I really couldn't care less about catching the next season.

Maybe that'll change in the fall when I realize that nothing good is on TV anymore.


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## Wycen (May 27, 2004)

I did indeed watch Enterprise instead of go to my game, though as soon as it ended I hopped in my car and sped over to catch the last half of the game.



Spoiler



As with 24, this episode climaxed 45 minutes into the show with the explosion of the sphere, but the end twist got me interested in the next season.

I loved seeing the Andoran ship appear to help, that was cool.  I also knew something was up when they said, "Finally 3 ships are coming to greet us" and then you hear the 'pink pink pink' of bullets off the shuttles hull, (though I agree they should have realized everything was not alright simply by pulling into orbit).  

And I have no problem with Nazi's being the bad guys, alien Nazi's work just as well.  Somebody on another board pointed out that alien might be a Remus, (Romulan) so they could be the next cold war species involved.



It is obvious to me now that Enterprise is about the temporal cold war, not the first ship named Enterprise, but that is fine with me.

Edit: totally forgot the cool use of limpet mines.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 27, 2004)

So, once again I ask for some spoilers. How about a plot synopsis ?

Mustrum Ridcully


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## Wycen (May 27, 2004)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> So, once again I ask for some spoilers. How about a plot synopsis ?
> 
> Mustrum Ridcully





Spoiler



The Enterprise remains in the expanse to disable the spheres while Dezgra's ship chases after the weapon.

The Enterprise must navigate through a huge distortion caused by the transdimensional aliens and they only have 15 minutes to survive in the warped space thanks to a neural stimulant developed by the doctor.

Degra's ship follows the sphere which exits warp space far from earth, but not far enough to blow up a space station.  Suddenly the Andoran ship with the guy from previous episodes shows up to help.  With the Andoran ship, Degra's smaller ship can get close to the weapon to transport an away team onboard, so Hoshi, still suffering from brain washing, can destroy the weapon.

The transdimensional aliens have warped space around the sphere enough that they can manifest on the Enterprise and they start going around mucking with the power systems so that the deflector can't shoot the ray at the sphere to destroy them.

Hoshi, Captain, Malcolm and Maco's get on board and fight off all the reptile aliens, so Archer can use Hoshi's instructions to invert the power and blow up the weapon.  The Andoran ship destoys the single reptile ship and Weyoun, (can't recall his Andoran name) tells them that now Archer owes him one.

The aliens almost stop the Enterprise from destroying the sphere, but don't and a backlash ends up firing through the whole sphere network and they all implode.

Archer gets into a fight with the reptile cheif who transported on board the weapon.  Archer blows him up with a limpet mine.  Totally cool.

The weapon blows up, but Archer is still on board.

This is 45 minutes into the show.

The Enterprise arrives at Earth and wonders why everything is silent.

A shuttle goes to Star Fleet headquarters but is greated with gun fire.  GUN FIRE.  From P-51 mustangs.  Then we flash to a tent and see soldiers and finally Nazi's.  Then an alien in a Nazi uniform standing over a burned and unconscious Archer.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 27, 2004)

Thanks for the spoilers!

Hmm. Sounds a bit strange.. Well, in a few month, you will know more, and than certainly someone will tell me more


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## Gab (May 27, 2004)

I feel like a lot of people here: I really liked the episode, but the ending had me going "huh?"  

Once the sphere blew up, and I saw there was still time left, I was looking forward to seeing Starfleet (and whatever Archer's superior's name is) and Archer giving the Vulcans a good "F*** you" for having survived the Expanse, showing they're capable of going it out in space, etc...

But now there's this Nazi crap? It actually wouldn't have been that bad for me if it weren't for the nazi thing. The going into the past is ok, I can live with that, maybe the superweapon created some sort of temporal anomily when it blew up (it is a superweapon, after all  ). But the nazi's... blah.  :\


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## Tom Cashel (May 27, 2004)

I liked the ep, and I liked the ending.

It's impossible to tell whether they're in the past or in an alternate present, but I'm a sucker for time travel whenever and however it appears.


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## DMScott (May 27, 2004)

I thought it was about an average Enterprise episode - which means some of the cast really tried to make it good, but they were saddled with a ridiculously poor script. Maybe they'll clean house over the summer, wrap up this godawful "time travel wrecks the Federation... again!" plot with as little fuss as possible, and try to get the series back on track. But somehow I doubt it - the new timeslot appears to indicate they'll be content to just mail in next season and call it a wrap for syndication.


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## Viking Bastard (May 27, 2004)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> How come certain races, like the insectoids, speak in an obviously alien tongue, but everyone else (such as the reptilians) speaks english?
> 
> [snip] Unfortunately, this season, at least, they seem to have ignored that completely.  )



Actually they dealt with this early this season. Hoshi translated the xindi 
'common' language early in the season. Into the translator grid it went and
that eliminated the problem (a definate cop out, but not one that defies the
rules they made early on). The Insectoid and Aquatic languages are harder,
being so much different, and they encountered them much later, so the 
translation wasn't as perfect, needing Hoshi with him to translate vs. just the
translator.


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## Sarigar (May 27, 2004)

I only caught the last half (of the season and this episode).  Much better than the other seasons.  Nice ending, after all this is a temporal cold war.  Time travel/changes in the timeline are pretty much a given in this series.  Now, did they go back in time, or has history already changed?  I thought I caught the insignias on the Mustangs, but they were American, right?


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## LordVyreth (May 27, 2004)

Pretty good episode.  But I had a problem with it besides the Nazi aliens, and with the season as a whole.  Namely, where are the Earth defenses?  Seriously, Earth knows that its at war, it already lost millions of people with a guarantee of future attacks that will be even more devastating, and they have a year to prepare.  And they have nothing when the weapon arrives?  They didn't build satellite defenses around Earth?  No fleet of warships with minimal warp drives, since they're only built for solar system defense?  They couldn't pull a rush job on that second Enterprise, or even commision a few more?  They couldn't order all those interplanetary freighters or their escort ships back to defend the planet, at least on a rotational basis?  They couldn't even ask the Vulcans for a favor that would save their species?  It's ridiculous that Enterprise is back in its home system during wartime, and they have to rely on the friggin' Andorians to be their only backup (though the Andorians' return was pretty cool.)  And we can't even write it off as saying the Nazi thing already happened, since the research station was there.


----------



## Viking Bastard (May 27, 2004)

A year may not be that long, really, seeing how it took two years to build 
the NX-2, which they already had the designs for. Who knows how long it'll
take 22nd century Earth to both design and build workable defenses.


----------



## BrooklynKnight (May 27, 2004)

It takes Months to build modern warships.

It would take longer to build earths defenses, especially a series of NX ships.

Remember, a few episodes ago, the NX-02 Columbia wasnt due for launch for a few months.

During Archers Era they didnt have replicators yet so they obviously couldnt replicate the materials nessassary. They still had to mine and refine it.

Though, you'll note Earth DID have Orbital Defenses...

the weird thing is, why didnt the Reptilians see it? All they saw was the research satelite. The Arms officer even said that earth had orbital defense platforms......its weird.

Its just a whole lot of writers plotholes which plauge startrek.


----------



## mattcolville (May 27, 2004)

Mark said:
			
		

> Looks like a Turtledovian plot to me...




Yes. Aliens went back in time and made it so Hitler won. Otherwise, why are there Nazi's in San Francisco?


----------



## myrdden (May 27, 2004)

mattcolville said:
			
		

> Yes. Aliens went back in time and made it so Hitler won. Otherwise, why are there Nazi's in San Francisco?




The Nazis weren't in San Fransisco.  They were elsewhere, probably in Europe.

Gah!  Why am I answering?! I hated this episode!


----------



## Cthulhudrew (May 27, 2004)

Viking Bastard said:
			
		

> Actually they dealt with this early this season. Hoshi translated the xindi
> 'common' language early in the season. Into the translator grid it went and
> that eliminated the problem (a definate cop out, but not one that defies the
> rules they made early on). The Insectoid and Aquatic languages are harder,
> ...




Okay- I missed that. Cool, then. I'm glad they didn't ignore it, because, like I said, I think that's one of the really good aspects of the show.

Now if only they'd given them "real" names...


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 28, 2004)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> the weird thing is, why didnt the Reptilians see it? All they saw was the research satelite. The Arms officer even said that earth had orbital defense platforms......its weird.
> 
> Its just a whole lot of writers plotholes which plauge startrek.




Perhaps the earth "area" was shifting into the past already.

The odd part is still that the alien's had talked to the other aliens, so they obviously were in Future when the enterprise left the alien ship.

I dunno!


----------



## Silver Moon (May 28, 2004)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> I think I know what happened at the end- Archer was leaped into the body of a nazi soldier, in order that he can make right what once went wrong. And hoping each leap... will be the leap home.



Wow!  That's a great concept.  Heck, you could probably even make a whole new science fiction show with an idea like that.  One problem though - Scott Bakula as the lead actor.  I just can't picture him pulling off something like that.


----------



## CCamfield (May 28, 2004)

I thought the episode overall was just average - not as good as some of the recent ones.

And the ending?  Next season?

I _like_ Nazis, but this is just stupid.  To me, this is probably Enterprise jumping over the shark tank.  Maybe a second time.

They had an opportunity to get back on track and tell the story of the formation of the Federation - but no.

The really gutsy route would have been to off Archer and tell the story of the Enterprise crew trying to form the Federation without the man history said was so important - but no.

This just makes no sense.  Archer gets shifted in time, the Enterprise gets shifted, and none of the Xindi do?  

We're probably never going to see the Xindi again, OR see the story of the formation of the Federation, because B&B want to play time travel.  (I'll be surprised if Enterprise gets another _two_ seasons.)


----------



## Mistwell (May 28, 2004)

I liked the episode a lot, and I had no problem at all with the ending.

I thought the alien at the end was similar to the alien they pulled from that pod who was the test subject from the "guardians".  I assumed it was the "guardians" just trying a different time line to knock out humanity.

How did Archer get there? I don't know.  Maybe the Andorians beamed them over, and then landed on earth?


----------



## CCamfield (May 28, 2004)

The test subject from the Guardians was pretty clearly one of the Guardians with cellular decay.  Archer made a point of this to the Xindi Council.


----------



## Mark (May 28, 2004)

mattcolville said:
			
		

> Yes.




I believe you meant to say...



			
				mattcolville said:
			
		

> Truth


----------



## Mark (May 28, 2004)

On a similar subject, it makes sense now that they purposefully cast Bakula if they were planning on doing a "time travel" Trek series all along, right from the beginning.  Folks who decided to watch the show because they were following Bakula, or heard he was in the new Trek show, would have no problem with the idea of him in another type of time travel show even if they hadn't been Trek fans previously.


----------



## mattcolville (May 28, 2004)

myrdden said:
			
		

> The Nazis weren't in San Fransisco.  They were elsewhere, probably in Europe.




They went to Starfleet HQ which they've already established in the series is already in SF. When they got there...they were shot at by Luftwaffe planes with the German cross, and when they cut to events on the ground; Archer.


----------



## mattcolville (May 28, 2004)

I don't know if it's obvious to anyone else yet, but it's obvious to me the bad guys waging the Temporal War are the Borg from the distant future.


----------



## myrdden (May 28, 2004)

mattcolville said:
			
		

> They went to Starfleet HQ which they've already established in the series is already in SF. When they got there...they were shot at by Luftwaffe planes with the German cross, and when they cut to events on the ground; Archer.




Hmmmm...I thought they were American Mustangs with the US Star on the planes.  It happened so fast and unbelievable that I could have misidentified the symbols on the planes.


----------



## Psychotic Dreamer (May 28, 2004)

myrdden said:
			
		

> Hmmmm...I thought they were American Mustangs with the US Star on the planes.  It happened so fast and unbelievable that I could have misidentified the symbols on the planes.




I just rewatched the scene and they did have the US Star on them.  So they were American planes.


----------



## Graywolf-ELM (May 28, 2004)

I missed the whole darn thing, and wasn't home to record it.  I hope it replays on saturday.


----------



## Brown Jenkin (May 28, 2004)

Gah!

Just when I thought things were going ok and would be wrapped up in a good manner (I figured the Andorians had rescued Archer aand would meet them on Earth for a happy reunion), out comes the shark tank. Unfortnately not only did Enterprise try to jump the shark, they seemed to have missed their landing and fell in with the shark where we can watch them be horriblely mangled next season.


----------



## Shadeus (May 28, 2004)

Busy week...first change to catch up with the latest episode thread.

Overall I thought it was an amazing episode.  I loved the scene of the spheres imploding inward like a tin can crushed in a giant's fist.  I also liked how there was definite sacrafice and drama to going in there.  The alien race from the future interfering was a perfect touch.

I hate to say it...but role Hoshi played was very well written (as much as I hate her character).  She was traumatized by her previous experience and she wasn't going on as if it was business as usual.

The fight with the reptilians with Archer and Malcom at the end was great too.  And I didn't see the explosive on the back coming either. 

And the Andorians coming to the rescue!  That was another twist that no one saw coming.

But the ending....perhaps I'm in the minority but I thought it was horrible.  It's called "Star Trek" not "Time Trek."  I mean really, how many times are they going to dip into that well?  I started watching the series to see the old technology and see the federation emerge and shielding and phasers, etc.  Instead I'm watching hull plating still...no tractor beams....and a whole bunch of time travel.

Mattcolville: I hope you are right about them being Borg because that's a great plot line.  But it would have to be that archer never learns they are borg.  Of course, Trek never was much concerned with continuity between series.


----------



## William Ronald (May 28, 2004)

I have not followed the series closely this season.  However, I thought the episode had many strong points. Hoshi played a vital role.  The Andorians coming in to save the day seemed very appropriate and perhaps foreshadowed the birth of the Federation.  However, I thought the Nazis appearing at the end was a bad move.  First, as has been pointed out, Enterprise should have been able to tell that it was not the Earth of their era even without using advanced sensors.  (You can probably tell the difference between San Francisco in the 1940s and 2004 from the air.) So, this was weak writing.

Also, the Nazis are somewhat over-used in the Star Trek universe -- although they are great villains.  Somehow, I doubt that an alien advisor for the Third Reich would be going anywhere without a very good disguise.  So, I am waiting for a good explanation -- for everything.


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 29, 2004)

Shadeus said:
			
		

> But the ending....perhaps I'm in the minority but I thought it was horrible.  It's called "Star Trek" not "Time Trek."  I mean really, how many times are they going to dip into that well?  I started watching the series to see the old technology and see the federation emerge and shielding and phasers, etc.  Instead I'm watching hull plating still...no tractor beams....and a whole bunch of time travel.




I don't follow the News of the shows generally, so I don't know how the show was advertised. But I certainly thought the show was about exploration and the Founding, not time travel and the temporal war. The Temporal War has gone from episode one and shows no sign of leaving the show, so I doubt I'll watch it.


----------



## CCamfield (May 29, 2004)

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> Unfortnately not only did Enterprise try to jump the shark, they seemed to have missed their landing and fell in with the shark where we can watch them be horriblely mangled next season.




Take the laugh point.


----------



## mojo1701 (May 29, 2004)

Shadeus said:
			
		

> And the Andorians coming to the rescue!  That was another twist that no one saw coming.




Unfortunately, I did. I _had_ to read the opening credits to see who was guest-starring, and I had to see:

and Jeffrey Combs as "Shran."


----------



## Orius (May 30, 2004)

Silver Moon said:
			
		

> Actually they're the best villains for any series in any era.  I mean, how can you beat the Nazi's!  Heck, even this year's Angel show had an episode with them.




Truely, did I not say that Nazis are the ultimate villains in the Best Indy Movie thread?


----------



## Orius (May 30, 2004)

LordVyreth said:
			
		

> Pretty good episode.  But I had a problem with it besides the Nazi aliens, and with the season as a whole.  Namely, where are the Earth defenses?  Seriously, Earth knows that its at war, it already lost millions of people with a guarantee of future attacks that will be even more devastating, and they have a year to prepare.  And they have nothing when the weapon arrives?  They didn't build satellite defenses around Earth?  No fleet of warships with minimal warp drives, since they're only built for solar system defense?  They couldn't pull a rush job on that second Enterprise, or even commision a few more?  They couldn't order all those interplanetary freighters or their escort ships back to defend the planet, at least on a rotational basis?  They couldn't even ask the Vulcans for a favor that would save their species?  It's ridiculous that Enterprise is back in its home system during wartime, and they have to rely on the friggin' Andorians to be their only backup (though the Andorians' return was pretty cool.)




Exactly.  Star Trek ALWAYS does this.  There's never any ships to defend Earth.

Which is stupid.  Even if they don't have Warp 5 ships, Starfleet does have other ships, like the one that attacked the Klingons at the end of last season.  And not having anything even remotely resembling orbital defenses is stupid given that they know the Xindi are gunning for them.


----------



## Orius (May 30, 2004)

Wycen said:
			
		

> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> And I have no problem with Nazi's being the bad guys, alien Nazi's work just as well.  Somebody on another board pointed out that alien might be a Remus, (Romulan) so they could be the next cold war species involved.




Ah! I  was not the only one who caught that.  I wasn't sure, but I could swear 



Spoiler



that alien was a Reman


.  Hard to tell with the lighting, and it was like 2 seconds.  But this might be B&B's way of finally getting around to 



Spoiler



covering the Romulan War, which should definitely be coming up


.  Still, as pointed above, I don't understand why 



Spoiler



Nazis would be working with an alien, given their views on "racial purity".  But then if it is a Reman, it could still work.  Remans do have telepathic abilities as evidenced in Nemesis.  So he could be projecting some sort of powerful telepathic illusion the stupid Nazis aren't aware of.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 30, 2004)

Orius said:
			
		

> Exactly.  Star Trek ALWAYS does this.  There's never any ships to defend Earth.



Not entirely true - in the movies, the ships are just never sufficient. (because the super-duper whale probe disables all ships and weapons, because the borg ships are to powerful and so on) 

In Deep Space Nine, there always were troups and ships protecting earth (though, IIRC, there is still an attack on the Starfleet Headquarter in San Francisco - but hey, that was a "real" war...)

Mustrum Ridcully


----------



## Orius (May 30, 2004)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> Not entirely true - in the movies, the ships are just never sufficient. (because the super-duper whale probe disables all ships and weapons, because the borg ships are to powerful and so on)




Well, it was an exaggeration.  One of the dumbest things about Star Trek all the time is that Earth seems to be lightly defended.  I can see why that might be the case in TOS or NG era episodes, where the Federation is huge and Earth isn't facing a lot of direct threats, but here, it's just stupid.  Archer's mission has already shown that there are a lot of nasty hostile aliens out there, building up defenses makes sense (especially if the Vulcans take a hands-off approach to it).



> In Deep Space Nine, there always were troups and ships protecting earth (though, IIRC, there is still an attack on the Starfleet Headquarter in San Francisco - but hey, that was a "real" war...)




Yeah, in that episode though, some Starfleet officers attempted a military coup because of paranoia about Dominion agents.  I don't know how much that affected the status quo, but it seemed to be presented as unusual.


----------



## Trainz (May 31, 2004)

I just finished watching it.

Wow.

I liked it, and am flager... frabel... flaberd... am at a loss to explain the ending. Makes me think about the "recent" Planet of the Apes movie finale.

In truth, criticising the ending is halfway pointless, because the producers could be taking this in ANY direction. It could be dumb, it could be great, we just don't know.

Hell, maybe they don't even know at this point. Maybe they set it up and thought "we have the summer to think about where we want to take this".

I'm left on my apetite though. Before watching it, I told my bud "I just hope they won't end it with a damn cliffhanger".

Right...


----------



## Trainz (May 31, 2004)

OK, I did a photo analysis and this is what I observed (WAY too much time on my hands):







The dude on the left is the Nazi-alien from the final episode, and the dudes on the right are remans. The ressemblance is similar, but there are differences:

1- The two diagonal ridges on the nazi's forehead are absent on the reman pictures.
2- The nose is bigger on the nazi, and the reman's nostrils aren't facing down, but forward.
3- The nazi has red eyes.
4- The reman has full collagen lips, the nazi's are thin.

So I don't think it's a reman...

Also... am I the only one that thought "Red Skull" when seeing the nazi alien ?


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 31, 2004)

Orius said:
			
		

> Well, it was an exaggeration.  One of the dumbest things about Star Trek all the time is that Earth seems to be lightly defended.  I can see why that might be the case in TOS or NG era episodes, where the Federation is huge and Earth isn't facing a lot of direct threats, but here, it's just stupid.  Archer's mission has already shown that there are a lot of nasty hostile aliens out there, building up defenses makes sense (especially if the Vulcans take a hands-off approach to it).
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, in that episode though, some Starfleet officers attempted a military coup because of paranoia about Dominion agents.  I don't know how much that affected the status quo, but it seemed to be presented as unusual.




I guess you`re right that it might have been "underdefended" given the current situation (I only read the spoilers here - in Germany, they haven`t shown the 3rd+ seasons yet).
But maybe it just shows the weakness of Earth - they build many freighters, but they have only weak orbital defenses, since they were never threatened by anybody. Now, they slowly begin to build up their fleet, but there are still not enough resources to do it. 
And probably until the recent events, they still think of enemies as wanting to invade Earth, and in this case, Earth might have a strong, standing army. 

(As a side note: I always wondered why the Earth Alliance in Babylon 5 was able to build so many ships on such a short notice. 5 years after the Minbari War, they already had hundreds of Omega Class Destroyers, the newest craft of the fleet - and these ships are much bigger than any marine vessel today. Earth did not seem to have that many colonies in B5, at least not as many as the Federation in Startrek)


----------



## aliensex (May 31, 2004)

Trainz said:
			
		

> Also... am I the only one that thought "Red Skull" when seeing the nazi alien ?




I guess that makes Archer... Captain America!


----------



## Mark (May 31, 2004)

I think the lack of defense can be attributed to the sudden appearance of the weapon from out of the conduit, virtually from nowhere to on their doorstep.  Even if every military ship that might have been constructed up through that time had been in direct orbit of Earth, that's a heck of a lot of space to cover and the odds that even one vessel would have been in striking distance seems remote.  Whereas the Andorians have a bit more speed and ability to be on alert and to quickly respond to a sudden appearance.  I'm not having any trouble with how they chose to portray things.


----------



## Trainz (May 31, 2004)

Plus Shran told Archer "Are you surprised we were successful in tracking your position following you through the vortex" or somesuch...

Star Trek do the extra effort in trying to cover it's logical plot holes. It doesn't cover them all, but I'm quite satisfied with WHAT they do cover.

It's a Science-Fiction show. Trying to find faults in something so fantastic is an exercise in futility. It can be interesting, but at one point one must just sit back and enjoy the show. ST is coherent enough for me.


----------



## Orius (May 31, 2004)

Trainz said:
			
		

> OK, I did a photo analysis and this is what I observed (WAY too much time on my hands):
> 
> The dude on the left is the Nazi-alien from the final episode, and the dudes on the right are remans. The ressemblance is similar, but there are differences:
> 
> ...




Yeah, there are some slight differences.  Maybe it's not a Reman, there was no explaination given to it whatsoever in the episode.

However, the makeup differences seem slight to me, and could be a result of different budgets for Nemesis and Enterprise.

Personally, I'm saying it's a Reman, cause I want to see a plot involving Romulans...


----------



## Silver Moon (May 31, 2004)

aliensex said:
			
		

> I guess that makes Archer... Captain America!



Merriweather will look great in the Falcon's costume, but I just can't see Tripp as Bucky.


----------



## Trainz (Jun 1, 2004)

Orius said:
			
		

> Yeah, there are some slight differences. Maybe it's not a Reman, there was no explaination given to it whatsoever in the episode.
> 
> However, the makeup differences seem slight to me, and could be a result of different budgets for Nemesis and Enterprise.
> 
> Personally, I'm saying it's a Reman, cause I want to see a plot involving Romulans...



I would also find it quite cool.

What would be less cool (but I think more probable) is that Herr Nazi here is a reptilian xindii... doesn't make sense, but hey.


----------



## Staffan (Jun 1, 2004)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> (As a side note: I always wondered why the Earth Alliance in Babylon 5 was able to build so many ships on such a short notice. 5 years after the Minbari War, they already had hundreds of Omega Class Destroyers, the newest craft of the fleet - and these ships are much bigger than any marine vessel today. Earth did not seem to have that many colonies in B5, at least not as many as the Federation in Startrek)



Well, it's more like 15 years than 5 - the Minbari war took place 10 years before the pilot, 11 years before season 1, and 14 years before the start of season 4. The big armada of Omega-class destroyers didn't show up until the end of season 4, so that's 15 years.

Also, Earth had the aid of the Shadows when making the Omegas (I think - I know Morden had an in with Clarke at least, but I'm not sure they aided in fleet construction), and that buys a whole lot of forgiveness for the time scale.


----------



## Eternalknight (Jun 6, 2004)

William Ronald said:
			
		

> First, as has been pointed out, Enterprise should have been able to tell that it was not the Earth of their era even without using advanced sensors.  (You can probably tell the difference between San Francisco in the 1940s and 2004 from the air.) So, this was weak writing.




To be fair, Tripp and Mayweather said that SF looked the same.  This leads me to believe it is an alternate present rather than the past.


----------



## Brown Jenkin (Jun 6, 2004)

Eternalknight said:
			
		

> To be fair, Tripp and Mayweather said that SF looked the same.  This leads me to believe it is an alternate present rather than the past.




I have a hard time believing that an alternate reality would have exactly the same skyscrapers and spaceports while flight technology hasn't progressed past prop fighters.


----------



## Raven Crowking (Jun 6, 2004)

Orius said:
			
		

> Yeah, there are some slight differences.  Maybe it's not a Reman, there was no explaination given to it whatsoever in the episode.
> 
> However, the makeup differences seem slight to me, and could be a result of different budgets for Nemesis and Enterprise.
> 
> Personally, I'm saying it's a Reman, cause I want to see a plot involving Romulans...




And let us not forget that the Andorians, Trills, Klingons, etc., etc., have all appeared in different forms on different series.  The Nazi alien seems a lot closer to a Reman than, say, any later Klingons do to the TOS Klingons, or the DS9 Trills do to the TNG Trills.

All in all, I really enjoyed this episode.  The cliffhanger situation actually made me think of _Doctor Who_ in terms of all the possibilities that are left open.    

RC


----------



## RangerWickett (Jun 7, 2004)

See, what you're all missing is, we _know_ that Nazis are the best villains ever, so obviously, that means the Nazis are controlling the time stream.  Hitler didn't die; he went to the future.  The climax of the series will of course take place in 1492, on the deck of the Pinta, Nina, and Santa Maria, as Archer duels Hitler with phasers and lightsabers, for the fate of all of the West Indies.

Thankfully, a time traveling Captain Jack Sparrow will come to his rescue just at the nick of time.

Get it?  Nick of _time_?  Heh hehe hehe.

*groan*


----------



## beta-ray (Jun 7, 2004)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> Someone edit the topic to put spoiler in there please...
> 
> Lets see, Nazi's are a staple Startrek Badguy.
> 
> ...




 Scan the atmosphere for what? Pollution? What would that have solved?



> Oh, let me add in that during that time period, yes even during WW2 ENT should have easily picked up radio transmissions from the surface.
> 
> "I've scanned all frequenceies" is bull, cause all frequencies includes radio.




True, but I don't know if we have been given the full capabilities or working protocols of tech in the 22nd century (i watch but not rabidly). Scanning "all frequencies" could mean all NORMAL frequencies... not every single frequency known to man. Remember that in TMP, some of the messages sent by V'GER were almost missed because they were sending out on frequencies not normally used.

Then again, what I noticed about several posters is that they treat this as they have all older Treks... This takes place before all the other Treks (barring time travel stories) some things will be different. Also, although they started out exploring, they now have a mission that does not primarily involve space exploration. Currently the stories about the temporal war. Complaining to TPTB might help but banging your head against the wall in a forum probably won't.

And I am in the camp that Berman and Braga may have had it once, but never really together.


----------



## beta-ray (Jun 7, 2004)

mattcolville said:
			
		

> I don't know if it's obvious to anyone else yet, but it's obvious to me the bad guys waging the Temporal War are the Borg from the distant future.




That's interesting... I noticed the outfits were similar to the Borg queen's... BUT what stuck out at me more was the different species bowing to a "god", reminded me more of the Dominion. In fact, the Guardians reminded me of several things... They look a little like the Changelings, they live in a world like the Prophets (I guess that is the way Trek people represent someplace outside time) and they dress like the Borg Queen.

I had thought that it was just the visionaries lack of originality... I never thought for once that they did it on purpose, but if they did... Could it be that the Borg assimilated the Changelings who then attacked the Prophets?! Whoa...


----------



## BrooklynKnight (Jun 7, 2004)

The Series has always been about the Temporal War, from the very first episode.

Its possible that this race is the same race that was telling the tsuliban what to do.

As for pollution.....

The state of earths atmopshere changes over the years. This is all recorded. 
by scanning the atmopshere and comparing it to records onboard, you can extrapolate what year you're in.

This was done both in StarTrek 4 and Episodes of Voyager...


----------



## Eternalknight (Jun 7, 2004)

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> I have a hard time believing that an alternate reality would have exactly the same skyscrapers and spaceports while flight technology hasn't progressed past prop fighters.




Ah, but how many times has ST ignored believability before?


----------



## Orius (Jun 7, 2004)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> As for pollution.....
> 
> The state of earths atmopshere changes over the years. This is all recorded.
> by scanning the atmopshere and comparing it to records onboard, you can extrapolate what year you're in.
> ...




But by the same token, they might not have scanned for pollution, given that they don't know they've traveled backwards through time.

Still, there are at least two things that should have tipped them off right away that something weird is going on.

1.  The absense of anything in orbit.  I don't just mean orbital stations and spacedocks.  I'm talking various networks of satellites and stuff.  Do you have any idea how much junk we got orbiting the Earth now?  We've got all sort of government and commercial satellites flying around, plus a huge crap load of debris.  There's got to be some sort of gps and communication satellite networks around the Earth in the timeframe of Enterprise, not to mention debris (especially debris from Yosemite station).   If they're going back to the WWII era, the space around Earth should be pretty much pristine.

2.  Radio signals.  This should be even more telling.  I don't see why, as other have pointed out, they wouldn't be receiving radio signals from Earth that would tell them they're in the 20th century.

The real reason for it is suspense.  B&B kept things mysterious on us until that plane fired on the shuttlepod.   So conveniently, they don't have any clue something is wrong until B&B are ready to show their hand.


----------



## mojo1701 (Jun 7, 2004)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> As for pollution.....
> 
> The state of earths atmopshere changes over the years. This is all recorded.
> by scanning the atmopshere and comparing it to records onboard, you can extrapolate what year you're in.
> ...




And let's not forget First Contact.


----------



## Raven Crowking (Jun 7, 2004)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> Oh, let me add in that during that time period, yes even during WW2 ENT should have easily picked up radio transmissions from the surface.
> 
> "I've scanned all frequenceies" is bull, cause all frequencies includes radio.




I don't know if you are aware of it, but communications in ST generally do *not* include radio wave frequencies.  Moreover, radio is archaic.  (This is one of the reasons that no one ever answers our radio messages!)  

Even by the time of _*Enterprise*_, faster-than-light communication exists.  Don't believe it?  Watch, oh, any episode where they communicate with Starfleet.  Remember that five-year delay while waiting for a response?  Nope.  That's because there isn't any.  Communications travel much faster than Warp 9.

Even going back to TOS, radio was mentioned as being an "old fashioned" form of communication, or words to that effect.

I would imagine that a starship would not normally use radio communications during the *Enterprise* era because, with the distances involved, there isn't any point.  A shuttle pod, however, might still be equipped with a radio receiver to pick up some form of broadcasts still being used on Earth because they are a modification of a near-orbital design.

Also, note on your AM/FM dial, when you "scan all frequencies" you scan all the frequencies that the device is capable of scanning.  You don't scan, say, visible light, or gamma radiation.  I would assume that the _*Enterprise*_ wouldn't, either.  

In conclusion, "I've scanned all frequencies" clearly indicates that they've scanned all normal communications frequencies, using whatever equipment is standard to the ship.  _*All*_ seldom really means _*all*_, either in fiction or in real life.


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## BrooklynKnight (Jun 8, 2004)

IN various episodes of TNG and even VOY radio frequencies were mentioned on scanners.

I dont buy it. Trek doesnt work that way. Its simply bad bad writing.


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## Raven Crowking (Jun 8, 2004)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> IN various episodes of TNG and even VOY radio frequencies were mentioned on scanners.




Yes, but not in the context of normal scans.  Moreover, as radio emissions don't "disappear," but rather simply travel further away, normally scanning for radio would more likely interfere with communications than offer something worthwhile.



> I dont buy it. Trek doesnt work that way. Its simply bad bad writing.




You don't have to buy it, but Trek does work that way.  It may be easier for the folks in the 24th Century to bring up radio transmissions than it was in, say, Kirk's time, or Archer's, but that might be due to the kinds of experiences Kirk and Archer have had.  

Radio as a form of entertainment probably disappeared along with TV in the Trek universe, around 2040.  No signals being broadcast, signals don't travel fast enough for useful communication, not a lot of reason to check.

RC


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## Arnwyn (Jun 11, 2004)

Gah. What a horrible episode.

Time travel is a miserable idea even at the best of times, and milking this "temporal cold war" (spawned during Voyager, previously the worst of the Star Trek series) is just killing this series for me.


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## Raven Crowking (Jun 12, 2004)

arnwyn said:
			
		

> Gah. What a horrible episode.
> 
> Time travel is a miserable idea even at the best of times, and milking this "temporal cold war" (spawned during Voyager, previously the worst of the Star Trek series) is just killing this series for me.




Not a big fan of *Doctor Who*, I take it.


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