# WotC announced non-randomized minis



## thalmin (Sep 12, 2008)

At the ACD Open House, WotC just announced that sometime in 2009 they will release non-randomized D&D minis. No details yet as they are working out what they want to do.
Also, they are releasing a super module in Aug (not Sept as I originally posted) 2009 that will be a boxed set. It will include double-sided tiles for the monsters, one side bloodied. I missed the title on this, will report back when I have more info.

edit: The title is *Revenge of the Giants*, for mid paragon levels. More info in post #7.


----------



## Shroomy (Sep 12, 2008)

Wasn't there an "Against the Giants" type boxset coming out in 2009?


----------



## jokamachi (Sep 12, 2008)

Hahaha.... waaaaaaay too late. I already got all the minis I need... not to mention books.


----------



## darjr (Sep 12, 2008)

This is very cool. I'd consider buying a boxed set with mini's for the major villains... or even all the villains.


----------



## JoeGKushner (Sep 12, 2008)

Thanks for the update Curt.

I suspect it's the new way that 4e is structured that's encouraging them to give this a try. With so many specific type of minis required, I suspect that they can do non-random and random at the same time.

Or the random stuff is simply winding down and they're trying to get ahead of the slow down.


----------



## JeffB (Sep 12, 2008)

Wow.

I may actually purchase my very first set of minis if this is the case. I refuse to buy into that random business.

Supermodule-  any guesses? 

I'm gonna guess it's something completely new- WOTC doesn't seem bound to D&D "tradition" as they once were.


----------



## thalmin (Sep 12, 2008)

Got more info on the module. It is titled "Revenge of the Giants" and is due in August, not September. It will be mid-paragon levels, something like level 12-18 or something like that (exact levels not yet decided).

The minis will be the prepaints, will include boxed sets (like a bunch of orcs) and will make some single PCs available as well. At least that is the current plan. THIS IS NOT A PROMISE. THIS IS A DIRECTIONAL PLAN, still in the early development stages. They also said they are targeting the minis for somewhere during the first 6 months of 2009.


----------



## Treebore (Sep 12, 2008)

thalmin said:


> Got more info on the module. It is titled "Revenge of the Giants" and is due in August, not September. It will be mid-paragon levels, something like level 12-18 or something like that (exact levels not yet decided).
> 
> The minis will be the prepaints, will include boxed sets (like a bunch of orcs) and will make some single PCs available as well. At least that is the current plan. THIS IS NOT A PROMISE. THIS IS A DIRECTIONAL PLAN, still in the early development stages. They also said they are targeting the minis for somewhere during the first 6 months of 2009.





Pre paints? They better be darn cheap or I'll just keep buying my metals. Sounds like I may buy the boxed set though.


----------



## w_earle_wheeler (Sep 12, 2008)

This could be really cool. I hope they go for it. I have yet to purchase a single randomized D&D miniature box, and I never will. I like knowing what I'm buying.


----------



## JeffB (Sep 12, 2008)

OK, I whiffed hard with my supermodule guess. 

Good news all around though


----------



## DaveMage (Sep 12, 2008)

darjr said:


> This is very cool. I'd consider buying a boxed set with mini's for the major villains... or even all the villains.





IIRC, the box set will not have minis - it will have tokens.


----------



## DaveMage (Sep 12, 2008)

thalmin said:


> The minis will be the prepaints, will include boxed sets (like a bunch of orcs) and will make some single PCs available as well.




Since orcs and PC types go for as low as 19 cents online now, I really hope they don't start such a line with common figures like these.

WotC: "Gee, no one's buying them."
Us: "Maybe cuz we already have them?"


----------



## bento (Sep 12, 2008)

DaveMage said:


> Since orcs and PC types go for as low as 19 cents online now, I really hope they don't start such a line with common figures like these.
> 
> WotC: "Gee, no one's buying them."
> Us: "Maybe cuz we already have them?"



No worry - there are still plenty of us too lazy to buy minis online.


----------



## Nebulous (Sep 12, 2008)

w_earle_wheeler said:


> This could be really cool. I hope they go for it. I have yet to purchase a single randomized D&D miniature box, and I never will. I like knowing what I'm buying.




Just saying, the secondary prepainted minis market is really, really cheap.  You can sometimes buy individual common monsters for 20 cents. Five orcs for a $1, can't beat that.

Edit: oh, i just saw DaveMage said the same thing.  True though. 

What we need is some common/uncommon githyanki and dragonborn.

Edit 2: One problem with the randomized sets that i'm noticing (D&D and Star Wars both) is that they're really starting to regurgitate a lot of the same monsters.  60 a set is a hell of a lot of different models, and spread out over the years it really adds up. 

I would actually be very interested in a squad of prepainted minis, all of the same race, but in unique poses. $10 for a box of ten plastic minis is a reasonable price, maybe even a shade cheaper.


----------



## Zaran (Sep 12, 2008)

DaveMage said:


> Since orcs and PC types go for as low as 19 cents online now, I really hope they don't start such a line with common figures like these.





Where did you find minis for 19 cents online?  So far I haven't found a good site to actually purchase any online


----------



## Achan hiArusa (Sep 12, 2008)

Its taken them how long to realize we need specific minis for our D&D games?  That we aren't buying them for the minis game.  I mean its taken being lampooned by almost every gaming cartoonist out there from John Kovalic on and having most game store owners breaking open packages and selling us specific minis at a markup.  They move so fast, don't they?


----------



## WhatGravitas (Sep 12, 2008)

Zaran said:


> Where did you find minis for 19 cents online?  So far I haven't found a good site to actually purchase any online



US-based people seem to love Auggies. I'm in the UK, so I don't have personal experiences...

Cheers, LT.


----------



## Irda Ranger (Sep 12, 2008)

JeffB said:


> Wow.
> 
> I may actually purchase my very first set of minis if this is the case. I refuse to buy into that random business.



This. I have never had any wish to waste money on minis I have no intention of using. But then, I never collected stamps or baseball cards either, so it just wasn't my hobby.  But this could change it.


----------



## Weregrognard (Sep 12, 2008)

Whee!   They should do sets that coincide with the sample encounters in the _Monster Manual_.


----------



## wedgeski (Sep 12, 2008)

They're waited exactly as long as it took for their highly profitable randomised packs to saturate the market and for demand to start drying up. Why would they have done it a moment sooner?


----------



## Nebulous (Sep 12, 2008)

Irda Ranger said:


> This. I have never had any wish to waste money on minis I have no intention of using. But then, I never collected stamps or baseball cards either, so it just wasn't my hobby.  But this could change it.




I found that once i started collecting them i loved them, and looking back on older sets i never paid attention to, i regretted not snatching some of the cool models when i had the chance. Some of them are now impossible to find or ridiculously expensive.


----------



## TerraDave (Sep 12, 2008)

thalmin said:


> THIS IS NOT A PROMISE. THIS IS A DIRECTIONAL PLAN




I should try that with my wife.


----------



## S'mon (Sep 12, 2008)

Lord Tirian said:


> US-based people seem to love Auggies. I'm in the UK, so I don't have personal experiences...
> 
> Cheers, LT.




I just bought several bunches of minis off this UK retailer - Welcome to Tritex Games, Specialists in Blood Bowl, Hero Quest and other War games, RPGs & MTG! - they seem fast and reliable.  Nothing for 10p though; the cheapest was 35p and most commons are going for 55p, about $1.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane (Sep 12, 2008)

I think themed box sets are a great idea, and now that they have monsters siloed, it makes putting together the sets really easy. If I could get an entire tribe of humanoids-- a box set of 20-30 miniatures-- I'd buy it in a heartbeat. 

Especially if the packaging was smart, resilient, and could serve as storage after purchase. Putting 20 minis in a flimsy tube-box like the current minis would be a non-starter. Putting them into a box about 2" deep, 8" x 8" or so, stackable onto my game room shelves = Big Win. 

Look over at the shelf, eyeball the distinctive box art for Kobolds or Hobgoblins or Orcs or Gnolls or whatever, pull the box down, and everything you need is right there inside.


----------



## Alaxk Knight of Galt (Sep 12, 2008)

Thank you WotC.  I love this move


----------



## Drammattex (Sep 12, 2008)

Are we sure this isn't the new non-random DDM starter coming out in the spring? 
I would bet that's what the announcement was referring to.


----------



## Nebulous (Sep 12, 2008)

Wulf Ratbane said:


> I think themed box sets are a great idea, and now that they have monsters siloed, it makes putting together the sets really easy. If I could get an entire tribe of humanoids-- a box set of 20-30 miniatures-- I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
> 
> Especially if the packaging was smart, resilient, and could serve as storage after purchase. Putting 20 minis in a flimsy tube-box like the current minis would be a non-starter. Putting them into a box about 2" deep, 8" x 8" or so, stackable onto my game room shelves = Big Win.




I would prefer cheap, shoddy packaging in exchange for a full color battle mat to accompany the squad of miniatures. Either a terrain or village or environment you would typically find them in.


----------



## Zaukrie (Sep 12, 2008)

My guess is that this will be good for those that have not yet really bought into the line, ok for retailers (as they order boxes and get stuck with inventory after the initial rush), and not so good for those of us that already own a ton of these minis. I cannot think of what box of lots of humanoids they could produce, at a good price, that I'd buy at this point.

Other than Orc Archers, you can get pretty much whatever you want on line, either from Auggie, other stores, or on maxminis/gleeeeeeemax/Hordelings. I just sold 150+ minis to someone myself at outrageously low prices.


----------



## thalmin (Sep 12, 2008)

Drammattex said:


> Are we sure this isn't the new non-random DDM starter coming out in the spring?
> I would bet that's what the announcement was referring to.



No, specifically they are looking at putting out non-random minis, in addition to the random ones. No word on whether they will have different bases (I asked) but they are talking about boxed sets and singles. They also said they don't want to hurt the secondary market. They do want to reach people that are not buying the randoms.


----------



## The Little Raven (Sep 12, 2008)

terradave said:


> I should try that with my wife.




It's a trap!


----------



## Nebulous (Sep 12, 2008)

thalmin said:


> No, specifically they are looking at putting out non-random minis, in addition to the random ones. No word on whether they will have different bases (I asked) but they are talking about boxed sets and singles. They also said they don't want to hurt the secondary market. They do want to reach people that are not buying the randoms.




It will kill Reapers Legendary figures line.


----------



## Henrix (Sep 12, 2008)

Lord Tirian said:


> US-based people seem to love Auggies. I'm in the UK, so I don't have personal experiences...



I'm in Sweden, and have good experience with them.


----------



## Alaxk Knight of Galt (Sep 12, 2008)

Nebulous said:


> It will kill Reapers Legendary figures line.




At the very least, Reaper will have to step up in a big way.  Their stated reason for getting into pre-painted minis was an unfilled market niche (non-2nd party non-random minis).  With WotC stepping up, Reaper can't afford to just dip their toe into the market.  They must go all out or cut the line.


----------



## Echohawk (Sep 12, 2008)

Nebulous said:


> 60 a set is a hell of a lot of different models, and spread out over the years it really adds up.



Indeed, as I think I mentioned in another thread recently, there are now 1003 different prepainted WotC minis available.

A long time ago, I had one box for "animals, magical beasts, plants and vermin", then it was just "animals". Now that same box is labeled "cats, dogs and wolves". By 2013 I'm thinking it'll be "snarling non-dire wolves"


----------



## Tellerve (Sep 12, 2008)

DaveMage said:


> Since orcs and PC types go for as low as 19 cents online now, I really hope they don't start such a line with common figures like these.
> 
> WotC: "Gee, no one's buying them."
> Us: "Maybe cuz we already have them?"





Where do you find miniatures for 19 cents?

Tellerve


----------



## DaveMage (Sep 12, 2008)

Zaran said:


> Where did you find minis for 19 cents online?  So far I haven't found a good site to actually purchase any online





Zaran, as Lord Tirian said (and if you are in the US) - Auggies has tons of common mins at 19 cents (or even less), and they are pretty inexpensive on the others as well.


----------



## DaveMage (Sep 12, 2008)

Tellerve said:


> Where do you find miniatures for 19 cents?
> 
> Tellerve




Here's the auggies link to their blood war set:

D&D minis:Blood War

There are a few in there.


----------



## Nebulous (Sep 12, 2008)

Auggies is great, but if you wait a year or two (or three, or four) after a release, you'll not find a good selection.  For better or worse, i hit him up as soon as a set is released.

For Better:  Yay!  I got all the minis i wanted!

For Worse:  Oh, ****.  I just spent a lot of money on colored plastic.


----------



## Fifth Element (Sep 12, 2008)

DaveMage said:


> Since orcs and PC types go for as low as 19 cents online now, I really hope they don't start such a line with common figures like these.
> 
> WotC: "Gee, no one's buying them."
> Us: "Maybe cuz we already have them?"



I always think the same thing about Reaper's prepaints. But apparently the orcs and skeletons are the big sellers in that line. Go figure.


----------



## frankthedm (Sep 12, 2008)

DaveMage said:


> Since orcs and PC types go for as low as 19 cents online now, I really hope they don't start such a line with common figures like these.
> 
> WotC: "Gee, no one's buying them."
> Us: "Maybe cuz we already have them?"



 Now chances are WotC is aiming this at the folks who _don't_ shop online. They are most likely shooting for those who would have bought more of the reaper prepaints IF those reaper prepaints had a better price point and or better selection.

That said, if a good portion of the figs are 1.0 "Rare" figs the orc pack could still be worth it. Several orcs in the rare slot were pretty cool sculpts, which were also popular in the DDM game, making them costly.

33 cents for a decent orc stand in
http://store02.prostores.com/servlet/auggiesgames/Detail?no=1597


----------



## Nebulous (Sep 12, 2008)

frankthedm said:


> 33 cents for a decent orc stand in
> #44 Gamorrean Guard




Indeed, they make great "classic" D&D orcs...so long as the the big STAR WARS slapped on the base doesn't ruin your sense of verisimilitude. I'd probably paint over that myself.


----------



## frankthedm (Sep 12, 2008)

Nebulous said:


> Indeed, they make great "classic" D&D orcs...so long as the the big STAR WARS slapped on the base doesn't ruin your sense of verisimilitude. I'd probably paint over that myself.



Permanent marker or shaving off the silver paint of the StarWars with an X-acto blade works too.


----------



## Brutorz Bill (Sep 12, 2008)

jokamachi said:


> Hahaha.... waaaaaaay too late. I already got all the minis I need... not to mention books.




  Too late.  I've got all the fantasy minis I need, both prepainted and metal.  I've got all the WotC books I'll ever need. I don't see WotC getting any of my gaming dollar anytime soon.


----------



## Scott_Rouse (Sep 12, 2008)

Brutorz Bill said:


> Too late.  I've got all the fantasy minis I need, both prepainted and metal.  I've got all the WotC books I'll ever need. I don't see WotC getting any of my gaming dollar anytime soon.




I guess we should stop trying and close up shop then.


----------



## El Mahdi (Sep 12, 2008)

Scott_Rouse said:


> I guess we should stop trying and close up shop then.




Or perhaps, rumors of your demise _have_ been over exagerated!


----------



## KB9JMQ (Sep 12, 2008)

Please, please, please make a mummy set with various poses.
Can't have enough mummies.
I love mummies.

/mummies


----------



## Klaus (Sep 12, 2008)

Scott_Rouse said:


> I guess we should stop trying and close up shop then.



So Scott, monster tiles, eh?


----------



## El Mahdi (Sep 12, 2008)

I'm not sure if the release covered this (it could be that this is in there and I'm just not comprehending what I'm reading) but I have another question.

Are the non-randomized minis going to be minis WoTC is already minting or will be minting, for the DDM game, or are they going to be a new set of miniatures made specifically for non-random production and sales?

I'd definately like to voice my hope that they will make new minis, specifically for non-random sales, that aren't designed with DDM roles or applications in mind.  I'd like them to just focus on straight MM creatures, typical monsters you usually use multiples of (goblins, orcs, minion red dragons, etc), and different combinations of classes/races/weapons for PC use.  I know they have a lot of good minis already that can be used for PC's, but who wants to spend $10+ for some of the really good minis?  I sure don't.  And they haven't covered all of the common combos PC's would want (they've covered quite a few, but there are gaps).  Eventually I'd like to see a pre-painted, plastic miniature line as extensive as Reapers _Dark Heaven Legends_ line.


----------



## Treebore (Sep 12, 2008)

El Mahdi said:


> I... I'd like to see a pre-painted, plastic miniature line as extensive as Reapers _Dark Heaven Legends_ line.





That would be cool.


----------



## Remathilis (Sep 12, 2008)

El Mahdi said:


> I'm not sure if the release covered this (it could be that this is in there and I'm just not comprehending what I'm reading) but I have another question.
> 
> Are the non-randomized minis going to be minis WoTC is already minting or will be minting, for the DDM game, or are they going to be a new set of miniatures made specifically for non-random production and sales?
> 
> I'd definitely like to voice my hope that they will make new minis, specifically for non-random sales, that aren't designed with DDM roles or applications in mind.  I'd like them to just focus on straight MM creatures, typical monsters you usually use multiples of (goblins, orcs, minion red dragons, etc), and different combination of classes/races/weapons for PC use.  I know they have a lot of good minis already that can be used for PC's, but who wants to spend $10+ for some of the really good minis?  I sure don't.  And they haven't covered all of the common combos PC's would want (they've covered quite a few, but there are gaps).  Eventually I'd like to see a pre-painted, plastic miniature line as extensive as Reapers _Dark Heaven Legends_ line.




Seconded.


----------



## frankthedm (Sep 12, 2008)

El Mahdi said:


> Eventually I'd like to see a pre-painted, plastic miniature line as extensive as Reapers _Dark Heaven Legends_ line.



I'd prefer more focus on monsters than Reaper's DHL line. 1/3rd PC types, 2/3rd monsters would be a good mix


----------



## Remathilis (Sep 12, 2008)

To add some more brain to the thought-jar.

First, there should be PC two-packs: one race/class combo, one male, one female. A dragonborn fighter pack, a tiefling warlock pack, etc. That way, the best PCs aren't always one gender.

Secondly, you don't need every class covered: a human in plate with shield doubles as a fighter and paladin. A robed wizard and robed warlock wouldn't be too different either. Unless your a stickler for details (like chain vs. scale vs. plate) it shouldn't be a bother to get the common races out there quickly.

Thirdly, GET THOSE WEIRD RACES. Seriously, I have enough human fighters, elven archers, and dwarves with hammers. Get me tieflings, dragonborn, genasi, goliaths, shifters, warforged, devas, gnomes (esp gnomes) you get the idea. 

Fourthly, how are we talking for multi-packs? I have a few ideas. My biggest one is theme-packs: 8-10 minis around a specific theme. For example the Hidden Crypts multi-pack would have 3 skeletons, 3 zombie/ghouls, 2 wraiths/spectres, a mummy, and perhaps a lich/caster undead. The Giant Kings set (all larges) might be 2 hill, 2 frost, 2 fire giants.  The Sewers ot the Yuan-ti would... you get the idea.

Fifthly, get the MM done first. Esp weird monsters like Kruthics or sorrowsworn.

It might be wishful thinking, but I hope something like this comes down the pipe...


----------



## Zaruthustran (Sep 13, 2008)

I'd love to have a bunch o' orcs, bunch o' skeletons, bunch o' goblins, and so on.


----------



## El Mahdi (Sep 13, 2008)

Oh, and one last thing, I've always wanted a Molydeus!  A really sweet, demon rallying Molydeus.  If they've ever made a figure of this, I've never seen it (and I've been looking), but I so want one.


----------



## Klaus (Sep 13, 2008)

Remathilis said:


> To add some more brain to the thought-jar.
> 
> First, there should be PC two-packs: one race/class combo, one male, one female. A dragonborn fighter pack, a tiefling warlock pack, etc. That way, the best PCs aren't always one gender.
> 
> ...



As I go through the race/gender/class matrix making counters, I'd like to suggest another approach to the PC-thing that doesn't lead to madness (this is SPARTA!)... the approach I took when I was working on Counter Collection 2, oh so many moons ago (7 years? really?): do male and female of each race, in unarmored, leather, chain, scale and plate variations. You can then cover all archetypes with 10 minis, as opposed to 16 (for 8 classes... and what about later classes?).

But since I didn't follow my own advice, I must go back to making 8 female dwarves...


----------



## frankthedm (Sep 13, 2008)

El Mahdi said:


> Oh, and one last thing, I've always wanted a Molydeus!  A really sweet, demon rallying Molydeus.  If they've ever made a figure of this, I've never seen it (and I've been looking), but I so want one.



Ral partha made one over a decade ago. Good luck finding one though.

http://www.fantasy-miniatures.de/molydeus.htm

One sold on ebay for $96 last month.
http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...FeedbackAsSeller&sspagename=VIP:feedback:3:us


----------



## Iceman75 (Sep 13, 2008)

*If they are going to do it ...*

do it right.  Stop making generic and make the non-randomized minis of monsters that are in the monster manual.  You can do bag o goblins but have 3 cutters, 3 warriors, 2 hexers ... well I think that you get the idea.  I have raised this very idea on the gleemax site only to have the damn DDM brainwashed devoted tell me the same thing that people are saying in this thread.  Just use our leftovers.  No.  I don't play that game and I'm not going to support it.  I don't want a generic orc.  I want the orc to have the weapon that they list in the MM.  I play D&D and don't want to say use your imagination that the orc is carrying something else.  If I was going to do that I would just use paper foldovers/pennies/pieces of lint.  You give me bags of monsters that are like what we see in the MM and I and others that I know will buy, buy, and buy some more.  With the advent of minions I need more than 5 orcs/goblins/kobolds...etc.  

Thank You WotC for finally hearing me out.


----------



## El Mahdi (Sep 13, 2008)

frankthedm said:


> Ral partha made one over a decade ago. Good luck finding one though.
> 
> http://www.fantasy-miniatures.de/molydeus.htm
> 
> ...




$96! OUCH!  Maybe if it came painted like the one on the first link.

But thanks for the cool link.


----------



## mach1.9pants (Sep 13, 2008)

Remathilis said:


> To add some more brain to the thought-jar.,SNIP>
> 
> It might be wishful thinking, but I hope something like this comes down the pipe...




Yeah me too! If they are non random then we need more weird ones! I would like the other 50% that are in the MM that are not covered, and the extras they chuck in during modules...Norkers anyone (despite the ridiculous name they look cool!)

A ENW'er has a fair few on offer and good prices, I buy a lot off hime 

Lots of Minis for Sale/Trade! - Wizards Community


----------



## broghammerj (Sep 13, 2008)

I've always thought the smartest thing they could do was sell the a pack to match the adventure you're about to play.  Take this new super adventure "Revenge of the Giants".  How about making a box set that has every miniature you'll need to run the adventure.


----------



## Remathilis (Sep 13, 2008)

broghammerj said:


> I've always thought the smartest thing they could do was sell the a pack to match the adventure you're about to play.  Take this new super adventure "Revenge of the Giants".  How about making a box set that has every miniature you'll need to run the adventure.




MSRP: $119.95 ($159.95 CAN)

Now, a collection of @ 10 important minis (giants, dragons, villains, major NPCs, etc) might be economically feasible, but not 1:1 mini ratio.


----------



## El Mahdi (Sep 13, 2008)

broghammerj said:


> I've always thought the smartest thing they could do was sell the a pack to match the adventure you're about to play. Take this new super adventure "Revenge of the Giants". How about making a box set that has every miniature you'll need to run the adventure.




I'm with you.  I don't necessarily need all of the small fries redone in an adventure specific themed set, but I would like to see the main NPC's and bad guys and any that are different than the normal MM creatures, or are unique to that adventure.  I'd like to see them go back and give some of the more classic adventures the same treatment (like Labrynth of Madness).


----------



## megamania (Sep 13, 2008)

This sends neat but I really am pretty much figured out.  There has been some 16 sets plus the various starters and other Icons sets.  Generic figures won't make my money part from my hands at this point in time.

However... a Darksun themed set.......


----------



## Amphimir Míriel (Sep 13, 2008)

Count me interested in a line that includes every Race/Class/Gender combo for PCs

Some of my players seem to pick whatever combination is almost impossible to find a picture online to make a counter, much less find a miniature in a random box!

-

Just as an anecdote, in my last 3.5 game, one of my players was playing a lightly-armored Female Half-Orc with a greatsword... Finding an appropiate pic online was not easy, but we eventually found one...

This time around, she picked an underaged Female Dwarf Fey-pact Warlock


----------



## cougent (Sep 13, 2008)

Scott_Rouse said:


> I guess we should stop trying and close up shop then.




Well no, this will probably actually get you a few of my dollars that the random packs NEVER would have seen.  Especially if you guys were to sell sets that matched (big) adventures [hint, hint].  I would have loved (and bought) a RttToEE set, and if you do one for the big boxed set adventure in 2009, I will probably get both.  So don't close up shop and go away... just continue to listen to what we want to buy; instead of what the Hasborg wants to sell.


----------



## S'mon (Sep 13, 2008)

broghammerj said:


> I've always thought the smartest thing they could do was sell the a pack to match the adventure you're about to play.  Take this new super adventure "Revenge of the Giants".  How about making a box set that has every miniature you'll need to run the adventure.




This would seem the smart approach.  Even if I don't run that adventure, I'm more likely to buy a themed minis set where I know what I'm getting.

Bit of a problem though that I don't run 4e and I'm only interested in minis I can use for my 3.5 game; which excludes some of the new monsters.


----------



## frankthedm (Sep 13, 2008)

El Mahdi said:


> $96! OUCH!  Maybe if it came painted like the one on the first link.
> 
> But thanks for the cool link.



Well, you >>may<< still have a chance. Look anywhere that has old 'gift pewter' collecting dust. Sometimes those old minis wind up in those.


----------



## mhacdebhandia (Sep 13, 2008)

S'mon said:


> Bit of a problem though that I don't run 4e and I'm only interested in minis I can use for my 3.5 game; which excludes some of the new monsters.



Kinda doubt Wizards of the Coast is going to make decisions about their product lines based on what will keep Third Edition holdouts happy.


----------



## Alnag (Sep 13, 2008)

It is possible, that non-randomized minis for D&D will mimick they way Star Wars are going to do this. Because... what you might (not) know - Star Wars has already two or three sets planned which are basically map pack + non randomized set of few miniatures going with it.

The strategy for DnD might be similar or slightly different, but I definitely see a patern here.


----------



## Zaukrie (Sep 13, 2008)

I can't see how they do a box tied to an adventure with more than about 12 minis in it or so. What happens after every DM that is going to run that adventure has bought the minis? Unless they are good for general us, it just isn't going to be good for the retailer.


----------



## Fifth Element (Sep 13, 2008)

cougent said:


> So don't close up shop and go away... just continue to listen to what we want to buy; instead of what the Hasborg wants to sell.



Yeah, I can't believe they made *16 series* of random minis when *no one* wanted to buy them. You'd think they would have learned.


----------



## El Mahdi (Sep 13, 2008)

_Quote - *S'mon* - Bit of a problem though that I don't run 4e and I'm only interested in minis I can use for my 3.5 game; which excludes some of the new monsters._



mhacdebhandia said:


> Kinda doubt Wizards of the Coast is going to make decisions about their product lines based on what will keep Third Edition holdouts happy.




What do Minis have to do with any system?  I'm pretty sure there are more game companies and systems than just WoTC, and I've used a lot of them in my D&D games (Reaper, Ral Partha, Games Workshop, Warhammer, WoTC, Star Trek figures, Diablo, even Dreamblade, and more that I'm not even sure who made them).  Reaper minis are made with absolutely no "system" in mind that I know of.  They make figures based on themes (fantasy, Sci-Fi, pulp, etc.), but definately not for a specific "system".  I'm reasonably sure WoTC (or TSR) have never made minis to be system dependent or specific.  In fact, one could probably make the argument that, if anything, the entire line of D&D pre-painted miniatures were made for the DDM game, not roleplaying specifically.  Of course that doesn't stop people from using them for roleplaying, or being limited in how they can use them.

Let's see: does 3.xE have Orcs - check, does 4E have Orcs - check; does 3.xE have dragons - check, does 4E have dragons - check; etc, etc, etc.

Just because new "4E" monsters are statted for 4E, doesn't mean they can't be used for 3.xE.  I use monsters from all sorts of sources in my games, be it novels, movies, TV, or even other game systems, genres and settings - and I don't play 4E.  I just don't see the logic here.

Guys, this is about WoTC product press release about their upcoming minis, and what we as a fan base want out of it.  Please don't make this into an edition war.


----------



## JVisgaitis (Sep 13, 2008)

This is great news. The aftermarket for singles works fine (i.e. Auggies), but it is kinda a pain. I'd love the convenience of non-random minis. My one question is how will this affect the D&D Miniatures Game? Personally, I don't care as I'm not a fan of the minis game, but having a Collectible Game go Non-Collectible is pretty significant. Unless of course the non-random minis have nothing to do with the minis game...


----------



## sfgiants (Sep 13, 2008)

"I guess we should stop trying and close up shop then" 

Sorry to derail. This quote rubbed me the wrong way. It is sarcastic and somewhat rude. Forums like this are all about stating opinions. The original poster was a wotc customer and I am sure wizards has stats that show even lapsed customers occasionally make a purchase (even if it is dungeon tiles etc).

I guess I expect more from one of the leaders of wotc. I guess I want customers to be treated with some respect even when wotc isn't always given the same regard. The company should be above sarcastic jabs at its customer base. 

I am sure some will disagree but oh well. Just my 2 cents

PS: On topic. Seems like a good idea to have non-random miniatures. I don't play 4e but I do still buy minis on occasion.


----------



## Treebore (Sep 13, 2008)

El Mahdi said:


> _Quote - *S'mon* - Bit of a problem though that I don't run 4e and I'm only interested in minis I can use for my 3.5 game; which excludes some of the new monsters._
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It sounds to me like S'mon is saying there are completely new monsters in 4E that weren't in 3E. Is that true? Are there completely new monsters?


----------



## S'mon (Sep 13, 2008)

mhacdebhandia said:


> Kinda doubt Wizards of the Coast is going to make decisions about their product lines based on what will keep Third Edition holdouts happy.




Well, I think they were foolish overall to drop so many long established monsters from the MM.


----------



## S'mon (Sep 13, 2008)

Treebore said:


> It sounds to me like S'mon is saying there are completely new monsters in 4E that weren't in 3E. Is that true? Are there completely new monsters?




That's right.  Although thinking about it, I don't use any 3e Monster book other than the Monster Manual; so I'm unlikely to want monsters from MM IV etc either.  What I do use are monsters from Red Box and 1e AD&D.  As mhac so astutely noted, WoTC may not be inclined to base their marketing on my preference.  OTOH I do suspect that too many new & obscure monsters may lose them sales.


----------



## Shroomy (Sep 13, 2008)

Treebore said:


> It sounds to me like S'mon is saying there are completely new monsters in 4E that weren't in 3E. Is that true? Are there completely new monsters?




Yes, there are completely new monsters, though the majority of monsters released so far have appeared in earlier editions.


----------



## JVisgaitis (Sep 13, 2008)

Treebore said:


> It sounds to me like S'mon is saying there are completely new monsters in 4E that weren't in 3E. Is that true? Are there completely new monsters?




Yeah. And even if we aren't talking new, a lot of the monsters have multiple variations that haven't been seen before. It's not like we need a different miniature for each version, but it some cases (like kobolds, orcs, goblins, etc.) it would help.


----------



## El Mahdi (Sep 13, 2008)

Treebore said:


> It sounds to me like S'mon is saying there are completely new monsters in 4E that weren't in 3E. Is that true? Are there completely new monsters?




What Shroomy said, and, what is there stopping anyone from using the new 4E creatures in a 3.xE game.  Creatures are more than just stat blocks.  If a miniature looks cool, I usually want to get it (whether I actually do or not - or can afford every miniature I want).  Even if I don't have stats for it, a cool, unique creature will give me ideas.  That's how I used Dreamblade miniatures, and those came with absolutely no RP stats whatsoever.

I'm a lot less concerned if a miniature is "designed" for 4E than I am if a miniature just isn't sculpted very well or has a less than stellar paint job.


----------



## Treebore (Sep 13, 2008)

Thanks for the responses S'mon, Shroomy, and JV. I have only been a player in 4E and going with the character sheet and "Quickstart" rules, I haven't bought any of the books yet, so I didn't know.

I did know about the variations, but not about any being completely new. There were so many MM's in 3E, and I think I own all but two, I didn't think it would be possible to create new monsters. Variations, yes, but completely new? That actually surprises me. I may have to pick up the MM now. Since, even though I am not a 4E convert, C&C does allow me to easily use stuff from 4E. Monsters being some of the easiest things to use.

Scott R., I don't even play D&D as my main game, I am not a convert to 4E, but I will buy non randomized mini's, so ignore thsoe posters who think the RPG market revolves around there preferences/experiences and go ahead with this non randomized line. 

As long as they aren't as over priced as your current mini's, especially since it sounds like your not going to paint them, I'll buy them.


----------



## Shroomy (Sep 13, 2008)

Treebore said:


> I did know about the variations, but not about any being completely new. There were so many MM's in 3E, and I think I own all but two, I didn't think it would be possible to create new monsters. Variations, yes, but completely new? That actually surprises me. I may have to pick up the MM now. Since, even though I am not a 4E convert, C&C does allow me to easily use stuff from 4E. Monsters being some of the easiest things to use.




Just a quick warning, the 4e MM is probably 90% conversions from earlier editions.  If you want brand new monsters, look to _Dragon_ and the module series.


----------



## Treebore (Sep 13, 2008)

El Mahdi said:


> What Shroomy said, and, what is there stopping anyone from using the new 4E creatures in a 3.xE game.  Creatures are more than just stat blocks.  If a miniature looks cool, I usually want to get it (whether I actually do or not - or can afford every miniature I want).  Even if I don't have stats for it, a cool, unique creature will give me ideas.  That's how I used Dreamblade miniatures, and those came with absolutely no RP stats whatsoever.
> 
> I'm a lot less concerned if a miniature is "designed" for 4E than I am if a miniature just isn't sculpted very well or has a less than stellar paint job.





Pretty much ditto for me as well. As you may know I will be sticking with C&C. Part of my love for C&C is because it will allow me to easily use monsters, spells, and magic from 4E with great ease. So if they are mini's I am interested in, I'll buy them. Just like I will be buying 4E modules too. Just so far it looks like I will be preferring Goodmans modules, which was par for the course with 3E too, so nothing new for me there either.

So even though 4E has not won me over system wise, I'll definitely still be in the market for stuff thanks to the high level of compatibility C&C gives me with most game systems  or D&D editions. Non random mini's likely being the top of that list. I got burned bad enough with the CCG's, so I never got into the random mini's market. I stayed with the metal mini's market.


----------



## Treebore (Sep 13, 2008)

Shroomy said:


> Just a quick warning, the 4e MM is probably 90% conversions from earlier editions.  If you want brand new monsters, look to _Dragon_ and the module series.





OK. I'll likely browse through the MM at the game store then, next time I am over that way (54 miles away). If I like enough of the 10% then I'll still buy it.

I have been following the Dragon stuff. I really like the Shadow Ooze, for the latest example. I wasn't so hot on the Golems, though, and I usually like golems of all types. Plus versions of those golems have been done before. I think the Shadow Ooze has been done before too, just the "flavor" of it grabbed me with this one. Plus it probably helps that my high level game is at a point where such an ooze is perfect. So it hitting me as being immediately usable definitely upped its appeal.


----------



## cangrejoide (Sep 13, 2008)

Remathilis said:


> MSRP: $119.95 ($159.95 CAN)
> 
> Now, a collection of @ 10 important minis (giants, dragons, villains, major NPCs, etc) might be economically feasible, but not 1:1 mini ratio.




This.

Asking for all the monsters in the adventure is going to be prohibitely expensive, but just having the boss monsters or special encounter monsters ( maybe 6 to 8 figures) would make it more affordable.


----------



## Mark (Sep 14, 2008)

Klaus said:


> I must go back to making 8 female dwarves...





Cariocas tem o vigor.


----------



## Jack Colby (Sep 14, 2008)

wedgeski said:


> They're waited exactly as long as it took for their highly profitable randomised packs to saturate the market and for demand to start drying up. Why would they have done it a moment sooner?




To make even more money and garner goodwill from the segment of players that dislike randoms but will buy non-randoms? Because they are needed for the RPG, not just the minis game?


----------



## Brutorz Bill (Sep 14, 2008)

sfgiants said:


> "I guess we should stop trying and close up shop then"
> 
> Sorry to derail. This quote rubbed me the wrong way. It is sarcastic and somewhat rude. Forums like this are all about stating opinions. The original poster was a wotc customer and I am sure wizards has stats that show even lapsed customers occasionally make a purchase (even if it is dungeon tiles etc).
> 
> ...




  Thanks sfgiants.  I have indeed been a loyal WotC customer for many years.  Started playing in '79.  And while I indicated in my post I don't need anymore minis (got a gameroom full, Auggie's is Great!, .19 cent NON-Random minis!) or WotC books (not a 4th ed guy).  I do still make regular RPG book purchases (Paizo, Troll lords, Green Ronin). Run a regular campaign (my group's purchasing practices usually follows what I run). I mostly post in the Pathfinder, d20 Modern, non-4th ed forums.  My mistake for posting here.  Won't make that mistake again. 
Sorry for the threadjack.
Sincere Regards,
 Bill


----------



## cougent (Sep 14, 2008)

Fifth Element said:


> Yeah, I can't believe they made *16 series* of random minis when *no one* wanted to buy them. You'd think they would have learned.



First, that is not what I said at all, and you know that. (shame on you!)

Second it is all conjecture UNTIL they offer non-random minis and THEN we can compare sales figures after another few years and see which is actually more popular.

Until then your conjecture that 16 series of random sold excellently is no more provable than my conjecture that 16 series of non-random minis would have sold 10 times better.


----------



## questing gm (Sep 14, 2008)

I was excited to hear that WoTC was going to put out their own minis years ago but the randomizing was a deal breaker. I really hope this happens soon and I won't mind buying back the minis from the older sets if they were just repackaged into a non-randomized set. 

I also would love to see minis being sold according to the modules, like what Paizo is doing.


----------



## w_earle_wheeler (Sep 14, 2008)

Brutorz Bill said:


> Thanks sfgiants.  I have indeed been a loyal WotC customer for many years.  Started playing in '79.  And while I indicated in my post I don't need anymore minis (got a gameroom full, Auggie's is Great!, .19 cent NON-Random minis!) or WotC books (not a 4th ed guy).  I do still make regular RPG book purchases (Paizo, Troll lords, Green Ronin). Run a regular campaign (my group's purchasing practices usually follows what I run). I mostly post in the Pathfinder, d20 Modern, non-4th ed forums.  My mistake for posting here.  Won't make that mistake again.
> Sorry for the threadjack.
> Sincere Regards,
> Bill




Don't take it too personally, Bill. WotC's internet spokespersons are feeling pretty defensive right now. Lots of deadlines pressing down on them, and lots of heat on them from the internet community they're hoping to sell 4e/DDI to. 

Of course, it doesn't help things that they view TSR's pre-Williams legacy as old men passed out while wearing party hats while viewing themselves as progressive and innovative rock stars


----------



## sfgiants (Sep 14, 2008)

Some good points wheeler, except for the fact that Rouse is the sr brand manager for d+d. I imagine he oversees most everything. This isn't some flunky with bosses breathing down his neck (except for perhaps Hasbro, but they don't seem to really care about d+d).

I expect more from someone in his position than sarcastic jabs at the customer base.


----------



## Ahglock (Sep 14, 2008)

DaveMage said:


> Since orcs and PC types go for as low as 19 cents online now, I really hope they don't start such a line with common figures like these.
> 
> WotC: "Gee, no one's buying them."
> Us: "Maybe cuz we already have them?"




Yeah the only reason I wanted non-random was so I could buy orc hordes and masses of undead and other groups of common X monster I use in my adventures.  I am not going to pay $10 a pack when I can find them online for much cheaper.


----------



## El Mahdi (Sep 14, 2008)

sfgiants said:


> Some good points wheeler, except for the fact that Rouse is the sr brand manager for d+d. I imagine he oversees most everything. This isn't some flunky with bosses breathing down his neck (except for perhaps Hasbro, but they don't seem to really care about d+d).
> 
> I expect more from someone in his position than sarcastic jabs at the customer base.




I understand how you feel, and I agree with what you've said.  At the same time, I feel for the man right now.  He's just had his right hand man (Linae) fired, had his area of responsibility increased, found himself fighting those above him for the very things we have feedbacked and critiqued about, and get's ripped by those very people he's championing (us). 

However, Don't get me wrong, I'm _*not*_ saying that you're _"ripping"_ him.  Like I said, I understand how you feel and agree with what you said.

I'm definitely not shy about stating my criticism of WoTC when I disagree with them.  But, lately I find myself really wanting to give Scott and the others the benefit of the doubt.  I think they feel caught between a rock and a hard place.  I guess I just feel for the tough spot he and they are in (and the fact I feel that kind of scares me a bit - maybe I need some de-sensitivity training to get back to normal).  Now Randy Buehler is another story.  He has definitely rubbed me the wrong way (but that's another thread).

Anyways, back to the subject (so this isn't a complete threadjack), I'm really looking forward to seeing what WoTC does with these non-randomized minis.  Even though some of the minis really aren't to my taste, or up to the standards I feel they should be (sculpts and painting), they have had some reeeaaaly cool minis mixed in there.  But, then again, even Reaper is a little hit or miss.  I like how reaper lists the sculptors name, and I find I'm drawn to work from specific sculptors.  The pre-painted plastics that WoTC makes are definitely easier to alter and customize than metal ones.  They had a really awesome series of articles on the Star Wars page about how to do just this thing.  I'd really like to see their mini line expanded with minis made specifically for non-random sale.


----------



## blargney the second (Sep 14, 2008)

cougent said:


> Until then your conjecture that 16 series of random sold excellently is no more provable than my conjecture that 16 series of non-random minis would have sold 10 times better.




Well, I can personally attest that at least 8 of those sets sold VERY well.


----------



## Dire Bare (Sep 14, 2008)

Scott_Rouse said:


> I guess we should stop trying and close up shop then.



Don't let the haters get you down Scott.  Besides, you've still got ME!!   I can never have enough mini's (I'm a minis whore), and I love 4th Edition (I'm also a gamebook whore).  I LOVE the randomized aspect of D&D Minis, although I'd also love to see some non-random sets.

I know you are aware that our hobby is full of cranky gamers that like to complain histrionically, but I imagine it gets wearing every once in a while.  You have my sympathy!

Keep those minis, books, and other games coming!!!


----------



## Iceman75 (Sep 14, 2008)

*Value is in figures that match up*

many DDM figures that you can get for cheap are not specific creatures out of the MM.  19 cents is not all that common even on the auggies site.  I think that the commons that I want are the humaniods.  To others that are saying that the 3.x monsterrs are the same as the 4E I say BS.  There are many subtypes of goblins, hobgobs, orcs, skeletons, zombies.  I WILL buy 5 bags of these common figures and send the receipts to WotC to prove it.  Not all of us have a stash of minis that we bought over the years.  The value is that characters will be able to recognize the foes that they face.  Thank you in advance WotC.


----------



## w_earle_wheeler (Sep 14, 2008)

sfgiants said:


> Some good points wheeler, except for the fact that Rouse is the sr brand manager for d+d. I imagine he oversees most everything. This isn't some flunky with bosses breathing down his neck (except for perhaps Hasbro, but they don't seem to really care about d+d).
> 
> I expect more from someone in his position than sarcastic jabs at the customer base.




Let me just say that I agree more with you than I disagree.

I don't think Bill is a hater. I think he was just expressing his situation plainly: he's been playing for a long time, and he doesn't need any more miniatures.

I am in a similar situation. During the years WotC sold randomized miniatures, I picked up non-randomized miniatures from Games Workshop, Reaper, and the occasional secondary market WotC stuff. At this point, I've already spent lots of money that could have gone directly into WotC's pockets -- and while I'm very happy that they may be making non-randomized miniatures now, it _might_ be many years too late to capture me as a customer. That all depends on what they release. 

For example, a few months ago I needed over a dozen kobolds. Desperately. WotC didn't sell packs of kobolds, so I had to go through other sources. It was a "lost" opportunity for them to make a kobold set available with the release of H1 KotS. 

(I put "lost" in finger quotes because I'm sure there are plently of people who haven't ran KotS yet, and would still love to pick up a box of dirty, stinky little kobold jerks.)

However, if they release packs made for use with their published modules, or packs of iconic monsters -- carrion crawlers, beholders, hooked horrors and stuff like that -- I will be very excited about it.


----------



## Fifth Element (Sep 14, 2008)

cougent said:


> First, that is not what I said at all, and you know that. (shame on you!)



This is what you said: "just continue to listen to what we want to buy; instead of what the Hasborg wants to sell."

This implies to me that Hasbro was dictating randomized minis, even though the customers ("we") didn't want them. But if the customers did not want them, the financial results would be such that 16 series would not have been made.

If you make a vague statement, expect that some won't understand what you intended to say.


----------



## sfgiants (Sep 15, 2008)

I think it is reasonably safe to say that customers didn't want randomized miniatures. They sold well because we didn't have any other options (for official d+d pre-painted plastic minis).


----------



## Treebore (Sep 15, 2008)

sfgiants said:


> I think it is reasonably safe to say that customers didn't want randomized miniatures. They sold well because we didn't have any other options (for official d+d pre-painted plastic minis).





Well, not this customer, The only WOTC randomized mini's I own are from one starter set a friend bought for me. My mini's money has been going to Reaper, etc..., not WOTC. This decision will get WOTC some of my money.


----------



## Wayside (Sep 15, 2008)

sfgiants said:


> I think it is reasonably safe to say that customers didn't want randomized miniatures. They sold well because we didn't have any other options (for official d+d pre-painted plastic minis).



If all of your arguments depend on predetermining what is "safe to say" and then reflexively hitching your claims to that (otherwise known as begging the question), well, then good luck to you. Personally, I don't think it's safe to say what the company's motives are, and I know it isn't safe to say what the customers want. Feel free to speak for yourself, but please refrain from speaking for the rest of us.

As for the Rouse's remark, let's try and keep a little perspective here, shall we? There are some rather overbearing anti-WotC people roaming these forums--making snide little comments like "Wizards will never see another dime from me!" and worse--and if the only thing their posts elicit from WotC employees is a little sarcasm then we should be commending those employees for their restraint.

This goes for Paizo too, although the Paizo staff doesn't have to put up with nearly as much hate.


----------



## sfgiants (Sep 15, 2008)

Treebore: You missed my point. My point was that randomized minis didn't seem to be popular with fans. You seem to agree with me.

Wayside: I have been perusing this site and others like maxminis for years. There are threads regularly about the topic of randomized minis. I probably should have said it is "safe to say" that many fans were not pleased with randomized minis. I think with a little digging it could be determined (note: I should have said many not all and wasn't attempting to speak for all fans)

Also, keeping perspective means realizing there is also rampant fanboyism as far as wotc goes. I understand your point but shouldn't we be expecting a little more restraint from the head of d+d? Why should he feel the need to even enter the conversation just to make a jab?


----------



## Fifth Element (Sep 15, 2008)

sfgiants said:


> I probably should have said it is "safe to say" that many fans were not pleased with randomized minis.



That one is probably true. But "many" is not remotely the same thing as "a significant proportion of", much less "a majority of".

Also bear in mind that people who are satisfied with the current product are much less likely to post on messageboards saying so, than people who are dissatisfied. Messageboard posts are not a randomized sample of the market.


----------



## thalmin (Sep 15, 2008)

I'm sorry I started this.


----------



## Harlekin (Sep 15, 2008)

Dire Bare said:


> Don't let the haters get you down Scott.  Besides, you've still got ME!!   I can never have enough mini's (I'm a minis whore), and I love 4th Edition (I'm also a gamebook whore).  I LOVE the randomized aspect of D&D Minis, although I'd also love to see some non-random sets.
> 
> I know you are aware that our hobby is full of cranky gamers that like to complain histrionically, but I imagine it gets wearing every once in a while.  You have my sympathy!
> 
> Keep those minis, books, and other games coming!!!





What he said. And thanks for acting like a human being rather than a corporate robot, even though it gets yo nothing but grief. Though frankly I'm surprised that you still consider it worth your time to visit these boards.


----------



## El Mahdi (Sep 15, 2008)

thalmin said:


> I'm sorry I started this.




Dude, this is nothing compared to some threads.  It seems most threads turn into arguments and rants after the first 1 1/2 to 2 pages (sometimes later, sometimes at post #2).  But even then, they can be fun to watch (like a car crash).


----------



## Wayside (Sep 15, 2008)

sfgiants said:


> Wayside: I have been perusing this site and others like maxminis for years. There are threads regularly about the topic of randomized minis. I probably should have said it is "safe to say" that many fans were not pleased with randomized minis. I think with a little digging it could be determined (note: I should have said many not all and wasn't attempting to speak for all fans)



Which proves that not only does the internet attract people with a natural talent for kibitzing, but that complaint threads on the internet...well, you get the idea. Also, the fact that you've been seeing and posting in these threads for years undermines your claim that they're generalizable. The same people posting the same thing in thread after thread does not a majority make.

Internet faux-statistics aside, this also doesn't take into account the psychological component of collectibility, which for a lot of people is a _huge _source of pleasure even though they don't realize it and may not even be willing to admit it when it's pointed out to them. That might not matter to RPGers, but maybe, just maybe, the majority of DDM sales are to people who use them for DDM instead of or in addition to RPGs.

(And I'm serious about the 'not realizing/willing to admit it' part. I don't think games like Magic or Pokemon would ever have hit the levels of popularity they did without randomization, and the same can be said of DDM, which after Magic sells better than anything else WotC makes.)



sfgiants said:


> Also, keeping perspective means realizing there is also rampant fanboyism as far as wotc goes.



If we're talking about ENWorld, I haven't seen it. Of course there are many 4e fans, but that's because, you know, they genuinely like the game, not because of some irrational love for the company that makes it. It's actually possible to like _or _dislike 4e without being a ponce.



sfgiants said:


> I understand your point but shouldn't we be expecting a little more restraint from the head of d+d? Why should he feel the need to even enter the conversation just to make a jab?



I guess this is where we differ. I was a fan of the Justin Achilli approach to community management.

As far as the Rouse's post though, he was basically saying the exact same thing you just said about his post, only about the post he replied to. The flow was roughly:

Guy1: Hey WotC is finally putting out non-randomized packs of minis!
Guy2: Who cares, I already have all the minis I need. Oh, and this is totally irrelevant, but I'll never buy a WotC book again either.
Rouse: Let's just stop making minis and books then, yeah?

All told, that's pretty much the _least _offensive reply I can imagine him making. I mean, he could have reported it, but to no avail since ENWorld has always been pretty bad about handling the passive-aggressive stuff.


----------



## S'mon (Sep 15, 2008)

I thought Rouse's reply was funny.    OTOH I think it's perfectly reasonable to say you have so much stuff that you're not likely to buy more - because minis don't go out of date with an edition change there may be a substantial proportion of the market that's already saturated.


----------



## Ahglock (Sep 15, 2008)

I'm curious how many people actually wanted randomized minis.  I'm boggles that some one would even try to argue the point that most people did not want random.  To me it is kind of like saying most people don't like getting groin kicked.  

About the only people I can see liking random minis are retailers since they know people who want X mini are effectively forced to buy more packs then they want unless they get lucky, ebay reseller types, and maybe some gota catchem all types who like random things because it makes getting them all an achievement.  The actual gamers who want minis, I kind of doubt want random.

I can see why they sell well, random while sucking hard until you get what you want puts you in the hole and you have to buy your self out, it is kind of like gambling.  In fact I suspect it preys upon people on a psychological level in a similar fashion to gambling.  

Most people I suspect just want the minis for there games, and the random packs just make it harder to get what you need for your games.


----------



## Ismaul (Sep 15, 2008)

Wayside said:


> As far as the Rouse's post though, he was basically saying the exact same thing you just said about his post, only about the post he replied to. The flow was roughly:
> 
> Guy1: Hey WotC is finally putting out non-randomized packs of minis!
> Guy2: Who cares, I already have all the minis I need. Oh, and this is totally irrelevant, but I'll never buy a WotC book again either.
> ...




Exactly. Plus, it's very clear that his comment is sarcastic and humorous. Honestly, I'm appalled at how much people try to see confrontational subtext in others' posts. It's as if you _want_ to provoke a confrontation. Learn to laugh a little.

But honestly, the reason this simple comment made such a wave is because of Rouse's position. I think some people only see WotC when they see him and think he speaks in an official manner everywhere he goes. The guy's not a machine you know, he comes here to relax, be informed, and maybe give out some info while he's here. It's called communicating with the fans with a human touch. And I happen to like it, especially the sarcasm. Keep it up Rouse!


----------



## Dimitris (Sep 15, 2008)

Lord Tirian said:


> US-based people seem to love Auggies. I'm in the UK, so I don't have personal experiences...
> 
> Cheers, LT.




 You could purchase minis from Auggies. Just send him an e-mail.     Dimitris


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Sep 15, 2008)

thalmin said:


> I'm sorry I started this.



It is not your fault what other make of a thread purely meant to share information. Don't let that stop you from sharing. 



Ismaul said:


> Exactly. Plus, it's very clear that his comment is sarcastic and humorous. Honestly, I'm appalled at how much people try to see confrontational subtext in others' posts. It's as if you _want_ to provoke a confrontation. Learn to laugh a little.



We should know by now that sarcasmn and humor are totally inappropriate for the topic of role-playing games and D&D specifically. It is _not_ a laughing matter. D&D is serious business. 





After reading this page of the thread I really believed for a moment that The Rouse might have posted something more, something to add fuel to the fire or something. But apparently, he didn't. Making a mountain out of a molehill or making an elephant out of a gnat (as we'd say in German) 

You know, I think the best thing to do is to ignore people that don't get the humor. The second best thing is to mock them for not getting it (humorously, without personal attack), and then ignore them. 

---

For the real topic: Sounds interesting, but it depends entirely on what kind of minis they'll offer. We have used the randomized packages a lot - sure, you don't get what you might need all the time, but we've gotten our mileage out of them.


----------



## Jeff Wilder (Sep 15, 2008)

Ahglock said:


> I'm curious how many people actually wanted randomized minis.  I'm boggles that some one would even try to argue the point that most people did not want random.  To me it is kind of like saying most people don't like getting groin kicked.



It depends on what you mean.  You could say that I "wanted" random minis, because I wanted a large selection of different miniatures as a reasonable price.  Randomization is what makes that possible.  Since price and selection were more important to me than non-random distribution, I "wanted" random distribution.

(FWIW, I no longer want random distribution, because I have enough minis that "selection" isn't all that important to me any longer.  So I've moved entirely to the secondary market to pick and choose the minis I want.)



> About the only people I can see liking random minis are retailers



Retailers like random minis, but not for the reason you cite.  Retailers want random minis because a box of boosters is one SKU.  You effectively have 60 different miniatures occupying one shelf in your store and one spot on your inventory sheet.  Retailers -- brick-and-mortar retailers, at least -- are going to have to devote many times the space and effort to stocking non-randomized DDM ... unless, of course, there's simply very little selection, which is actually pretty likely.

Merric's Law -- Non-random, large selection, cheap.  Pick any two.

Me, I suspect -- just suspect, I have no inside information or anything -- that WotC is going this route because sales of DDM have significantly dropped off for the last two or three sets.  This -- if true -- would be due to a few factors (a significant drop in paint and sculpt quality, a major change in the DDM game rules, and long-time collectors getting over-saturated), but the upshot is that they need to find another quick monetary shot-in-the-arm from DDM.  Since they have the molds, and they know that (e.g.) a set of 15 different orcs will sell, why not?


----------



## UngainlyTitan (Sep 15, 2008)

Agreeing with Jeff Wilder mostly as for me personally, while I will buy more random minitures I would also like the option to buy prepainted minis grouped by type, e.g. Orcs, goblins, kobolds and so forth.


----------



## El Mahdi (Sep 15, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> . . . We should know by now that sarcasmn and humor are totally inappropriate for the topic of role-playing games and D&D specifically. It is _not_ a laughing matter. D&D is serious business. . .




I'm betting you couldn't keep a straight face while typing this, let alone saying it out loud.

This thread has kind of turned into the same thing the thread about the Red Dragon cartoon did. Too bad. (however it's still fun to watch)

And also, back to the topic for me: I've bought a couple of randomized boxes, but since I only use them for RP'ing I usually pick a mini I want from looking at the galleries at WoTC, then find the cheapest price for that mini as a single on any of the various internet stores that sell them.  Except for the really expensive rares, I haven't paid more than a couple of bucks per mini.  Probably about the same, or even maybe cheaper, than a Reaper mini (and they aren't painted).  But don't get me wrong, I really like Reaper minis also.  They have some really kick ass sculpts (especially Sandra Garrity - my fave).


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Sep 15, 2008)

El Mahdi said:


> I'm betting you couldn't keep a straight face while typing this, let alone saying it out loud.



I could write *ding ding ding*, but I hate that. Suffice to say that you are entirely correct.

I hope that the next cartoon mocks those that can't take humour. (But only if there are aren't any better ideas out there.  )


----------



## SteveC (Sep 15, 2008)

I think that this is good news, as I've been looking for non random pre-painted minis for a long time. I'm currently going with the Reaper line, but they don't have all of the bases covered, so I hope to be able to put together some basic bad guys for my players to deal with.

I've been talking about this for a long time, and I find it incredibly ironic that I heard all sorts of reasons why something like this could never happen. I'm just glad that it has.

--Steve


----------



## mac1504 (Sep 15, 2008)

SteveC said:


> I've been talking about this for a long time, and I find it incredibly ironic that I heard all sorts of reasons why something like this could never happen. I'm just glad that it has.
> 
> --Steve




Although I agree that it is ridiculous to ever claim that this couldn't happen- for the record (and I believe calrified by Thalmin at one point in this discussion) WOTC has not stated that non-randomized minis are a reality yet. I believe they are simply looking into the possibility at this point, probably watching for market reaction to this news. And to that, I thank Thalmin for starting this thread and sharing his insider knowledge (as he is always done) with the rest of us.

As to the plan to market non-randomized minis, I am a rather fanatic mini collector (started with lead and have never regretted my decision to move to pre-painted plastics), I would love to see a set of orcs or goblins but please include one or two unique figures with these sets. If WOTC releases a set of say 10 orcs, all from previously released figures, they probably won't get a dime from me. If they included, say 2 new figures (that can't be had in any other product), that would get my money. Some complain of WOTC's repetition of figures, but I enjoy having that bit of variety.

On the topic of the randomized strategy WOTC employed, I believe it was a necessary evil to ensure retailer support and at first, as stated by Jeff Wilder previously, it served its function for me when I first started collecting in that it provided me with a variety of figures to start off with. I also believe many underestimate the secondary market in order to obtain the minis you want, in the quantity that you want.


----------



## Amphimir Míriel (Sep 16, 2008)

In an attempt to bring the discussion back to the topic on hand, here´s some examples of non-random mini packs I would buy (2 of each, even!):

*Kobolds pack 1:*
4 Kobold minions, 2 Kobold Skirmishers, 2 Kobold Slingers

*Kobolds pack 2:*
4 Kobold minions, 2 Kobold Dragonshields, 1 Kobold Slyblade, 1 Kobold Wyrmpriest

*Goblins pack 1:*
4 Goblin Cutters, 2 Goblin Warriors, 1 Goblin Blackblade, 1 Goblin Skullcleaver

*Goblins pack 2:*
4 Goblin Cutters, 2 Goblin Sharpshooters, 1 Goblin Hexer, 1 Goblin Underboss

*Goblin pack 3:*
4 Hobgoblin Grunts/Warriors, 2 Hobgoblin Soldiers, 1 Hobgoblin Archer, 1 Hobgoblin Warcaster

*Goblin pack 4:*
2 Hobgoblin Soldiers, 2 Bugbear Warriors, 1 Bugbear Strangler, 1 Hobgoblin Commander, 1 Hobgoblin Hand of Bane

*Undead pack 1: Zombies!*
4 Zombies, 1 Corruption Corpse, 1 Gravehound, 1 Rotwing Zombie, 1 Zombie Hulk

*Undead pack 2: Skeletons!*
4 Skeletons, 1 Blazing Skeleton, 1 Boneshard Skeleton, 1 Skeletal Tomb Guardian

And so on...


----------



## Nebulous (Sep 16, 2008)

When are we going to get a ******* ABOLETH?

A classic D&D monster i would love to have.  Reaper made an awesome metal one, but i'll be damned if i'm going to buy for that expensive 5 pound thing and then have to paint it.


----------



## Fifth Element (Sep 16, 2008)

They should follow the trend in action figures and have a build-a-mini figure, made up of several parts. Each non-random pack would contain a part of the build-a-mini. Solves the problem of needing huge packaging for huge minis.


----------



## sjmiller (Sep 16, 2008)

You know, I bought quite a few of the random minis, mainly because I liked getting oddball ones that forced me to be creative in order to use them.  I would have preferred to get non-randomized minis, so I could get all the ones I wanted, but that was not possible from WotC.  I bought a few singles, but then I started running out of room and spending money.  Now I look for minis that fit my need.  That means I am looking at non-random packs.  I also prefer them pre-painted, mainly because I am allergic to the paints I would need to use to paint them.  Reaper has started a good line, and I am hoping that the WotC line will work well too.  I am not running 4e (though I will be possibly playing some), so my needs are mostly for older editions of D&D and other non-D&D games.

So, there are my thoughts on the topic.  I look forward to seeing what they do.  I hope it will be something I will want to get.


----------



## Fifth Element (Sep 16, 2008)

sjmiller said:


> You know, I bought quite a few of the random minis, mainly because I liked getting oddball ones that forced me to be creative in order to use them.



I like this as well. I've come up with several fun, creative encounters simply because I had a weird mini and no other way to use it.


----------



## SteveC (Sep 16, 2008)

Perhaps also to get the thread back on track, I've been someone who hasn't purchased the earlier random minis, specifically because they're random.

If fixed sets were to come out, I'd be interested in both sets of generic monsters, and sets for the modules. I'd also like to see sets of party miniatures, or minis based on race or even class.

I'd love to purchase the product, and I know I'm not alone.

Edit: add terrain and tiles for the modules to that list and I'm also onboard. In fact, "Keep on the Shadowfell in a box" would greatly interest me.

--Steve


----------



## Nebulous (Sep 16, 2008)

Heck, i'd love to see WotC go all out and creep into Dwarven Forge territory.  If anybody could do it well, and cheap, it would be Hasbro. They could release collectible sets (or preferably non-collectible) that coincides with adventures modules being released.


----------



## The Little Raven (Sep 16, 2008)

Nebulous said:


> Heck, i'd love to see WotC go all out and creep into Dwarven Forge territory.  If anybody could do it well, and cheap, it would be Hasbro. They could release collectible sets (or preferably non-collectible) that coincides with adventures modules being released.




Back when Races & Classes and Worlds & Monsters was released, they talked about some of the iconic locations (Fane of the Drow, Temple of Elemental Evil, etc) showing up in the future, possibly in the form of adventures.

If they did go Dwarven Forge-style and made terrain, it'd be cool if they released sets geared towards those iconic locations.


----------



## mac1504 (Sep 16, 2008)

Nebulous said:


> When are we going to get a ******* ABOLETH?
> 
> A classic D&D monster i would love to have.  Reaper made an awesome metal one, but i'll be damned if i'm going to buy for that expensive 5 pound thing and then have to paint it.




Answer: soon

Well, at least Spring of '09 (soon for those of us that have been waiting for a pre-painted aboleth mini since they released Harbinger).


----------



## tomBitonti (Sep 16, 2008)

Hi,

Thanks for the link!

Is it me, or is the forthcoming DemonWeb set hands over better than Against the Giants?  (Or are those preproduction masters, and therefore giving me a false sense of what the set will look like?)  It's like they rediscovered the rest of the color wheel for this set.  Also, not too too many clear figures, from what I can see so far.


----------



## Nebulous (Sep 16, 2008)

mac1504 said:


> Answer: soon
> 
> Well, at least Spring of '09 (soon for those of us that have been waiting for a pre-painted aboleth mini since they released Harbinger).




That makes me happy.


----------



## Novem5er (Sep 16, 2008)

Why haven't they put out non-random Monster Counters yet?

Use the exact same material as the best-selling Dungeon Tiles, but put art from the MM into little squares and circles. They could even package them in themes that actually mean something.

The ONLY reason I can think of why this hasn't been done is that it would hurt the mini's market, yet, aren't they going to be using this model for the virtual Game Table? Everyone will get free monster tokens with the Game Table, but they are betting that people will purchase 3d models. Why not do the same with the actual miniatures, but charge us $9.99 for a pack of tokens?


----------



## Klaus (Sep 16, 2008)

Novem5er said:


> Why haven't they put out non-random Monster Counters yet?
> 
> Use the exact same material as the best-selling Dungeon Tiles, but put art from the MM into little squares and circles. They could even package them in themes that actually mean something.
> 
> The ONLY reason I can think of why this hasn't been done is that it would hurt the mini's market, yet, aren't they going to be using this model for the virtual Game Table? Everyone will get free monster tokens with the Game Table, but they are betting that people will purchase 3d models. Why not do the same with the actual miniatures, but charge us $9.99 for a pack of tokens?



You can already download a PDF product that has all Heroic-tier monsters from the MM1 in token form.

A high-quality print version (which includes a couple of bonus dungeon tiles) will be sent to the printer very soon.

Fiery Dragon also has released Castle of Shadows, Maze Under Stormpeak and Ziggurat of Gloom, three PDFs that have tokens that ... ahem... "fit" with the released adventures so far.


----------



## El Mahdi (Sep 16, 2008)

Klaus said:


> You can already download a PDF product that has all Heroic-tier monsters from the MM1 in token form.
> 
> A high-quality print version (which includes a couple of bonus dungeon tiles) will be sent to the printer very soon.
> 
> Fiery Dragon also has released Castle of Shadows, Maze Under Stormpeak and Ziggurat of Gloom, three PDFs that have tokens that ... ahem... "fit" with the released adventures so far.




Thanks for the link.  I added these and some other of Fiery Dragons stuff to my wishlist (I like Fiery Dragon).  However, I'm not exactly sure which released adventures these tokens were supposed to ... ahem ... "fit" with?  (just kidding)
This is exactly why WoTC can't live without 3pp.  Of course, that pesky little GSL thing doesn't seem to be _completely_ stopping things.


----------

