# The Dukes of Hell



## BOZ (Dec 11, 2006)

OK, i guess most of us shouldn't be too terribly surprised that the Dukes of Hell (the next step down from the Lords of the Nine) don't get much coverage in FC2, but at least most if not all of them get a mention.  still, would have been nice to see a bit more.

for those DMs who would like to elaborate more on hell's power stucture in their campaign, let's start by identifying all the published sources where we can find more information on them.  a few were introuced in the original MM2 (Amon, Bael, Hutijin, and Titivilus); the same source identified numerous others that were later detailed in Ed Greenwood's Dragon #75 & 76 (with a few non-heirarchy devils introduced in #91 as well).  they were left virtually untouched until IIRC Faces of Evil.  not sure how much coverage they got in A Guide To Hell.  a small few of them got mentions in BoVD.

what else do we need to know about that?


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## Shade (Dec 11, 2006)

Bo and Luke appear in TA1- The Village of Hazzard, and Daisy appears in TA2-My Body is a Temple of Elemental Evil.


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## Razz (Dec 11, 2006)

Here're names of unique devils from FCII and where they're located:

*AVERNUS:* Amduscias and Malphas (servants of Tiamat); Amon, Armaros, Azazel, Bist, Cahor, Caim, Dagon, Duskur, Herodias, Kochbiel, Malarea, Moloch, Nergal, Nisroch, and Rumjal (Outcast Dukes)

*DIS:* Lilis (Dispater's consort), Arioch the Iron Avenger, Biffant (Provost of the Iron City), and Titivilus (Nuncio of Dispater); Alocer, Bitru, and Merodach (commanders of Dis's armies)

*MINAUROS:* Bael, Caarcrinolaas, and Melchon (Mammon's generals); Focalur (Mammon's seneschal); Glwa (Mammon's new consort)

*PHLEGETHOS:* Balan, Bathym, Gaziel, and Zapan; Chamo (Legate of Abriymoch) and Zaebos (deputy of Abriymoch)

*STYGIA: * Cozbi (Glasya's consort) and Gorson (Geryon's baliff) were both destroyed; Agares and Machalas (Levistus' commanders)

*MALBOGE: * The Dukes were all from Baalzebul's court but were withdrawn after Moloch fell. No unique devils have achieved the rank of duke when Malagarde ruled and only one has during Glasya's rule (Tartach)

*MALADOMINI:* Baftis (First Consort), Lilith (Second Consort), Neabaz (Herald of Lies), Barbatos (Marshal of Maladomini), and the generals Abigor, Bileth, and Zepar.

*CANIA:* Abonides (Steward of Cania), Baalphegor (lord's consort), Barbas (Chamberlain of Mephistar), and Bele (Justiciar of Cania); Bifrons and Hutijin command armies in Cania under the pit fiend Nexroth's command

*NESSUS:* Adramalech (Chancellor of Hell), Phongor (Inquisitor of Nessus), and the commanders Buer, Bune, Moraz, Rimmon, and Zagum.

*Please note that these entries also mentioned names of prominent pit fiends, but since we're looking for names of unique devils I only mentioned their names.


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## IcyCool (Dec 11, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Bo and Luke appear in TA1- The Village of Hazzard, and Daisy appears in TA2-My Body is a Temple of Elemental Evil.




Am I the only one terrified by this?


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## BOZ (Dec 11, 2006)

Razz said:
			
		

> Here're names of unique devils from FCII and where they're located:




definitely interesting, thanks!

was this posted anywhere previously?


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## Aus_Snow (Dec 12, 2006)

IcyCool said:
			
		

> Am I the only one terrified by this?



Nope, not at all.


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## Erik Mona (Dec 12, 2006)

Did I mention already how happy I was to work on the demon one?

--Erik


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## Shemeska (Dec 12, 2006)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> Did I mention already how happy I was to work on the demon one?
> 
> --Erik




If you want Erik, we can make up something obscure sounding, claim you didn't include it when you should have, and just use that as some half-hearted excuse to retroactively flame you I suppose. But nah, you have a get out of Carceri free card due to you from FC:I.






But on a more serious note, I don't envy Schwalb and Laws for having to try to make a coherent book from all the contradictory and scattered sources on Baator, and at the same time try to avoid pissing folks off by what they didn't include. I'll lament the lack of Ancient Baatorians, but they did a very nice job in couching all the pre-history/mythology in FC:II in terms of mythology of questionable grounding in fact, and there's enough allusions and wiggle room to see the primordial predecessors of the Baatezu. 

I think they did a nice job when all is said and done. But true to your own feelings, I still don't envy the task.


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## Ripzerai (Dec 12, 2006)

*take down the world at all angles*

If what you want is a list of all the nobles known, I'll try to make a list. After some thought, I decided to include the nobles which have been promoted since 1st edition (Baalzephon, Bel, Furcas, Zaebos, Zapan, and Zimimar), with the implication that their posts have been filled by someone else. Other nobles, especially in those layers whose rulers have changed, may also be different now.

(sources: 1eMMII, Legions of Hell, Book of Vile Darkness, Planes of Law, Dragon Magazine)

Lord Bel
Malphas (40 companies of abishai) - MMII
Amduscias (29 companies of abishai) - Dragon #75
Goap (3 companies of erinyes) - MMII
Yeddikadir (cornugon disciplinarian) - BoVD
Nalebranc (cornugon disciplinarian) - BoVD
Malgrin (master of undead) - Book of Fiends
Zariel (imprisoned predecessor) - Guide to Hell

Lord Dispater
Lilis (consort) - Dragon #75
Ustyhrin-ja (mistress of erinyes) - BoVD
Formally Bel (3 companies of cornugons) - MMII
Formally Furcas (12 companies of barbazu) - MMII
Formally Baalzephon (Prime Minister) - MMII
Bitru (70 companies of erinyes) - Dragon #75
Elivisa (consort of Bitru) - I forget
Merodach ((21 companies of hamatula) - Dragon #75
Titivilus (Nuncio) - Dragon #75
Alocer (36 companies of erinyes) - Dragon #75
Arioch (Avenger) - Dragon #75
Biffrant (Provost) - Dragon #75
Talos (iron golem guardian) - BoVD

Lord Mammon
Zbara the Witch-Queen (human advisor) - BoVD
Bael (66 companies of hamatulas) - Dragon #75
Caarcrinolaas (36 companies of hamatulas) - Dragon #75
Focalor (Seneschal) - Dragon #75
Herobaal (16 companies of osyluths) - Dragon #75
Melchon (16 companies of erinyes) - Dragon #75
Formally Zimimar (6 companies of osyluths) - MMII
Pollus Windscreamer (master of Jangling Hiter) - Planes of Law

Lady Fierana
Belial (ruler-behind-the-scenes) 
Naome (Belial's consort) - Dragon #75
Gazra (Fierana's consort; master of hamatulas of the first four circles) - BoVD
Ariel (master of torments) - Book of Fiends
Antaia (mistress of witches) - Book of Fiends
Naamah (contessa of duplicity) - Book of Fiends
Formally Zaebos (Lieutenant) - MMII
Formally Zapan (4 companies of cornugons) - MMII
Balan (master of the hunt; 40 companies of barbazu) - Book of Fiends, Dragon #75
Bathym (30 companies of hamatula) - Dragon #75
Chamo (Legate) - Dragon #75
Gaziel (11 companies of osyluths) - Dragon #75
Philotanus (Lord of Perversion) - Book of Fiends

Lord Levistus
Erridon Alaka (hands of Levistus) - BoVD
Zanth (voice of Levistus) - BoVD
Trinity (hellcat minder) - BoVD
Unnamed (master of Tantlin) - Planes of Law
Dagon (warden of the Styx) - Book of Fiends
Krotep (Pharoah of Axor) - Book of Fiends
Nekhet (prophet of Set) - Book of Fiends
Agares (31 companies of osyluths) - Dragon #75
Fecor (8 companies of cornugons) - Dragon #75
Gorson (baliff) - Dragon #75
Herodias (magistrate) - Dragon #75
Machalas (11 companies of hamatula) - Dragon #75
Amon (40 companies of osyluths, winter wolves) - MMII

Hag Countess
Lel (Marquise of the Night) - Book of Fiends
Bileth (Tribune) - Dragon #76
Bethage (9 companies of cornugons) - Dragon #76
Tartach (legate) - Dragon #76
Herobaal (16 companies of osyluths) - Dragon #76
Three night hags (advisors?) - BoVD

Lord Baalzebul
Baftis (consort) - Dragon #76
Vashaak Ratoth Bruu (chief handservant) - BoVD
Abigor (30 companies of cornugons) - Dragon #76
Barbatos (Marshal) - Dragon #76
Neabaz (Herald) - Dragon #76
Zepar (28 companies of cornugons) - MMII
Amitiel (Archon of Truth) - Book of Fiends
Flauros (diviner) - Book of Fiends
Murmur (Inquisitor) - Book of Fiends
Nergal (master of pestilence) - Book of Fiends
Meresin (master of storms) - Book of Fiends
Rahbad (Lord of the Lightless Seas) - Book of Fiends
Tamiel (Governs the lakes of Maladomini) - Book of Fiends
Mysdemn Wordtwister (ruler of Grenpoli) - Planes of Law

Lord Mephistopheles
Baalphegor (consort) - Dragon #76
Antilia (bard) - BoVD
Jalie Squarefoot (Lich fiend) - Book of Fiends, Hell in Freeport
Hadriel (Duchess of Domination) - Book of Fiends
Barbas (Chamberlain) - Dragon #76
Bifrons (26 companies of gelugons) - Dragon #76
Adonides (Steward) - Dragon #76
Bele (Justiciar) - Dragon #76
Hutigin (2 companies of pit fiends) - Dragon #76
Nexroth (16 companies of cornugons) - Dragon #76
Testaron (draconic guardian) - BoVD

The Dark One
Alastor (executioner) - Dragon #76
Adramalech (chancellor) - Dragon #76
Baalberith (majordomo) - Dragon #76
Buer (15 companies of pit fiends) - Dragon #76
Bune (Duke of Eloquence; 30 companies of cornugons) - MMII, Book of Fiends
Martinet (constable) - Dragon #76
Glasya (temptress) - MMII, BoVD, Guide to Hell
Morax (9 companies of pit fiends) - Dragon #76
Paimon (patron of science) - Book of Fiends
Bebal (lover of Paimon) - Book of Fiends
Abalan (lover of Paimon) - Book of Fiends
Phongor (Inquisitor) - Dragon #76
Rimmon (5 companies of gelugons) - Dragon #76
Selm (Prince of Posessors) - Dragon #42
Zagum (30 companies of hamatula) - Dragon #76

Special mention: Ronnell Maughdonnel, Count of the Hells - Dragon #120


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## BOZ (Dec 12, 2006)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> Did I mention already how happy I was to work on the demon one?




more than once!

it bears repeating though, i'm sure.  



			
				Ripzerai said:
			
		

> If what you want is a list of all the nobles known, I'll try to make a list.




thanks!  



			
				Ripzerai said:
			
		

> (sources: 1eMMII, Legions of Hell, Book of Vile Darkness, Planes of Law, Dragon Magazine)




what, no Faces of Evil?    or was that just rehash of stuff already in Planes of Law?



			
				Ripzerai said:
			
		

> Special mention: Ronnell Maughdonnel, Count of the Hells - Dragon #120




you, sir, are a sick, sick man.  and i mean that in the nicest way possible.


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## Shade (Dec 12, 2006)

Ripzerai said:
			
		

> Special mention: Ronnell Maughdonnel, Count of the Hells - Dragon #120




<Grimace>


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## BOZ (Dec 12, 2006)

"what the hell is a grimace, anyway?"


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## Alaric_Prympax (Dec 12, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> "what the hell is a grimace, anyway?"





Didn't he used to work for McDonalds?


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## Ripzerai (Dec 12, 2006)

Alaric_Prympax said:
			
		

> Didn't he used to work for McDonalds?




You're righter than you know.

Forgot to mention that Martinet was described a lot better in _Guide to Hell_ and _BoVD_ than in Dragon #76 - back in 1e he was just a generic, undetailed pit fiend, but he was promoted to unique status in 2e. Kept the same job, though.

(Grimace was originally a nasty octopus that loved milkshakes, if the question wasn't rhetorical; they rebooted him by removing a bunch of arms and making him dumb-but-friendly)


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## BOZ (Dec 15, 2006)

i wish i had access to Guide to Hell, but i'm sure i'll be able to have a look at it before long.

i started taking some notes while at work on Wednesday; unfortunately, due to unforeseen events i won't be able to access them until i return to work next Tuesday.


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## BOZ (Jan 8, 2007)

i'll be getting FC2 hopefully on Friday, so i can resume putting this together.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jan 8, 2007)

The following were also given writeups in the Tome of Horrors, with information that is from the 1e era of play. 

Amon - Vassel to Geryon 
Baaphel - Grand Duke to Belial
Bael - Duke to Mammon
Gorson - Duke to Mammon
Hutijin - Duke to Mephistopheles
Titivilus - Duke to Dispater


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## Shade (Jan 8, 2007)

Ripzerai said:
			
		

> (Grimace was originally a nasty octopus that loved milkshakes, if the question wasn't rhetorical; they rebooted him by removing a bunch of arms and making him dumb-but-friendly)




If a milkshake-loving purple octopus wasn't disturbing to children, I don't see how an _armless_ milkshake-loving purple octopus wouldn't be.


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## ehren37 (Jan 8, 2007)

Razz said:
			
		

> *AVERNUS:* Amduscias and Malphas (servants of Tiamat); Amon, Armaros, Azazel, Bist, Cahor, Caim, *Dagon*, Duskur, Herodias, Kochbiel, Malarea, Moloch, Nergal, Nisroch, and Rumjal (Outcast Dukes)





I'd noticed Dagon on the list, and wondered if it was a typo. According to FC 1, he's in the abyss, unless Dagon is just a common name or something.


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## Ripzerai (Jan 8, 2007)

ehren37 said:
			
		

> I'd noticed Dagon on the list, and wondered if it was a typo. According to FC 1, he's in the abyss, unless Dagon is just a common name or something.





Dagon is a baatezu noble exiled to Avernus. He was formerly known as Jaqon, the least duke in the court of Asmodeus. In that capacity he traveled freely about Baator as the herald and messenger of Adramalech and Asmodeus, as Martinet and others do today.

Often summoned to the Prime Material Plane, Jaqon had a habit of trading more information than Asmodeus wished divulged, including hints as to the truenames of various other nobles and the preferences of various she-devils with regard to an archdevil winning one of their hands to be his consort. For this pandering, he is especially despised by all of the consorts and she-devils in the hells; none will aid him, work with him, or even speak civilly with him.

To make Jaqon’s exile a punishment rather than a mere inconvenience, and to lessen his treachery against the hells, it was necessary for Asmodeus to end his frequent summonings to the Prime. The Overlord accomplished this by branding new words onto Jaqon's spirit, forcibly changing Jaqon’s name to Dagon, the name of an obyrith prince — an insult to both Jaqon and the demon Dagon, and a means of confounding the familiar summoning rituals used by Prime Material plane conjurers. The Overlord did not destroy his former herald because Jaqon’s continued existence — and knowledge of the consort’s truenames — remains a threat to many of the consorts, thus ensuring their loyalty to Asmodeus, upon whose protection they must depend.

Dagon usually appears as a red-skinned satyr with a slyly handsome, hairless visage, pointed ears, and short, curving horns like those of a pit fiend. His eyes are green, and shine brightly when he is angry or excited.

Source: Dragon #91


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## Wolv0rine (Jan 9, 2007)

Ripzerai said:
			
		

> *snip*
> Dagon usually appears as a red-skinned satyr with a slyly handsome, hairless visage, pointed ears, and short, curving horns like those of a pit fiend. His eyes are green, and shine brightly when he is angry or excited.
> 
> Source: Dragon #91



Now *this* post was actually downright helpful to someone (like myself) who doesn't own (pretty much any of) these books.  Good info, background, and a good workable description.  Now if only there were a post like this for all the denizens of the Hells!


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## Ripzerai (Jan 9, 2007)

Wolv0rine said:
			
		

> Now *this* post was actually downright helpful to someone (like myself) who doesn't own (pretty much any of) these books.  Good info, background, and a good workable description.  Now if only there were a post like this for all the denizens of the Hells!




Actually, there is.


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## ehren37 (Jan 9, 2007)

Ripzerai said:
			
		

> snip




That's quite cool. Thanks!


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## Wolv0rine (Jan 10, 2007)

Ripzerai said:
			
		

> Actually, there is.



Imminent coolness.  Cripes, I'm going to lose so much time drawing devils, now...


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## BOZ (Jan 10, 2007)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> The following were also given writeups in the Tome of Horrors, with information that is from the 1e era of play.
> 
> Amon - Vassel to Geryon
> Baaphel - Grand Duke to Belial
> ...




yeah, but i thought i heard somewhere that some of the vestiges merely had the same names as known devil lords...


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## Ripzerai (Jan 10, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> yeah, but i thought i heard somewhere that some of the vestiges merely had the same names as known devil lords...




That's right. The vestiges have nothing in common with the diabolic nobles, except for Geryon, who is the same Geryon we've grown to expect, only in vestige form. 

But Flexor was talking about _Tome of Horrors_ from Necromancer Games, not _Tome of Magic_ from Wizards of the Coast.


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## BOZ (Jan 11, 2007)

you know, i will never learn to pay attention to the things i read.


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## Wolv0rine (Jan 11, 2007)

Alright, hopefully I'll be forgiven for this mini-hijacking of the thread, but it's the only thread I know to put this in...

Now granted (by way of opening), I have avoided all things Planescape since it was first released.  It struck me as an unmistakable opening to ruin all things Planar then, and all things Planescape since then have pretty much confirmed it IMHO.  But I say this not to blatantly flame PS, but to explain why it is that I'm just _now_ seeing this for the first time...

Reading through Planewalker.com (thanks again for the link, Ripzerai) I saw two things.  First I saw that Mammon is *ALL* wrong, from the ground up.  Then I saw all these references to 'The Reconing'.  Okay, so I finally get around to reading the entry on that...
   and I so wish I hadn't.  I'd love to know whose 'bright idea' this was.  
"In the aftermath, Geryon and Moloch were dismissed from their positions, and Mammon and Baalzebul were forced to take new forms. Belial was made to retreat into the shadows, making his daughter Fierana the official ruler of Phlegethos. The Hag Countess was given charge of Malbolge, and Levistus was returned custody of Stygia."
   I can roll with some of this, kinda, sorta...  well I can contain myself at least.  But what the jumpin' jesus is this about Mammon & Baalzebul being forced to change their forms??  Who sat down and thought "You know, it'd be SO COOL if we took the big, bloated, gluttonously evil looking Mammon -- whose name sounds so much like mammoth to begin with -- and made him so radically different it'd have been easier AND better if we'd have created a new Devil!"
  And that's not to even begin with how pathetic they've made Baalzebul.  There's absolutely no hellish evil menace to an archon turned into a big clueless slug by devils and then laughing at him.

I know, PS fans will see me as just popping off, and about 9/10ths of the rest will say something to the effect of "Dude, don't run PS stuff" -- and I don't -- but dammit this is the best source of info short of the 1E MM and MM2 I can find for lower planer beings and the lot of it is just...  childishly inane.  My brain hurts, people, help me.


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## Shemeska (Jan 11, 2007)

Wolv0rine said:
			
		

> Reading through Planewalker.com (thanks again for the link, Ripzerai) I saw two things.  First I saw that Mammon is *ALL* wrong, from the ground up.  Then I saw all these references to 'The Reconing'.  Okay, so I finally get around to reading the entry on that...
> and I so wish I hadn't.  I'd love to know whose 'bright idea' this was.




Monte Cook. He created the idea of the Reckoning in 'A Paladin in Hell' to explain some of the differences between the membership of the Lords of the 9 way back in 1e versus their composition in 2e. Prior to this point in 'Planes of Law' IIRC, Tiamat's position as Lord of the 1st had already been dismissed as mortal confusion (Bel was lord of the 1st, having replaced an earlier lord, but Tiamat had never in fact held that spot being as how she wasn't actually a fiend). Later in 2e, the Reckoning was further discussed in 'A Guide to Hell' (and Bel's predecessor Zarial was first named).

The Reckoning doesn't appear in anything properly within the Planescape line, just in related products after it, late in 2e. It was intended to integrate where necessary a few bits of orphaned 1e lore back into a coherent history with how the planes had evolved and developed through 2e.



> "In the aftermath, Geryon and Moloch were dismissed from their positions, and Mammon and Baalzebul were forced to take new forms. Belial was made to retreat into the shadows, making his daughter Fierana the official ruler of Phlegethos. The Hag Countess was given charge of Malbolge, and Levistus was returned custody of Stygia."
> I can roll with some of this, kinda, sorta...  well I can contain myself at least.  But what the jumpin' jesus is this about Mammon & Baalzebul being forced to change their forms??  Who sat down and thought "You know, it'd be SO COOL if we took the big, bloated, gluttonously evil looking Mammon -- whose name sounds so much like mammoth to begin with -- and made him so radically different it'd have been easier AND better if we'd have created a new Devil!"




IIRC. Baalzebul's change in form was described in a Dragon magazine article by Colin McComb 'The Lords of the 9'.




> And that's not to even begin with how pathetic they've made Baalzebul.  There's absolutely no hellish evil menace to an archon turned into a big clueless slug by devils and then laughing at him.




Dunno about that. it's not exactly wise of them to laugh at him considering that he's probably the second most powerful Lord of the 9, next to only Asmodeus. FWIW, I never found 1e Mammon to be hellish, just really out of shape.


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## Wolv0rine (Jan 11, 2007)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> Monte Cook. He created the idea of the Reckoning in 'A Paladin in Hell' to explain some of the differences between the membership of the Lords of the 9 way back in 1e versus their composition in 2e. Prior to this point in 'Planes of Law' IIRC, Tiamat's position as Lord of the 1st had already been dismissed as mortal confusion (Bel was lord of the 1st, having replaced an earlier lord, but Tiamat had never in fact held that spot being as how she wasn't actually a fiend). Later in 2e, the Reckoning was further discussed in 'A Guide to Hell' (and Bel's predecessor Zarial was first named).



Hmm, a huge hell-upheaving event where a few lines of text indicating a few changes and/or corrections (like "IT has since been confirmed that Tiamat is not, in fact, the duke of the 1st layer" or "In the time since sages last recorded the ranks of the hierarchy, Duke X had this happen to him..")  Gods what a shame.



			
				Shemeska said:
			
		

> IIRC. Baalzebul's change in form was described in a Dragon magazine article by Colin McComb 'The Lords of the 9'.



Ahh yes.  The eternal cross one must bear as a gamer from the 70's who never read Dragon magazine.  Eh, I'm used to _that_.  



			
				Shemeska said:
			
		

> Dunno about that. it's not exactly wise of them to laugh at him considering that he's probably the second most powerful Lord of the 9, next to only Asmodeus. FWIW, I never found 1e Mammon to be hellish, just really out of shape.



Possibly, possibly.  But the impression that I got from Planewalker.com was that this poor upper planer creature (since WHEN is Baalzebul a fallen upper planer being?!?  No, don't answer that...) dropped into the hells, and the devils there turned him into a slug-beast as some kind of cruel welcome to the 'hood joke at his expense.  It just robs him of any dignity he could achieve regardless of his power, y'know?  What we get is 'Baalzebul, dorky new kid in school who got pantsed in from of the cheerleader squad at homecoming, but has an M-16 in his closet now" kind of thing.  The Lord of the Flies used to be a Nasty Mo-Fo.

As for Mammon's girth, it was *part* of his anti-appeal.  "Glasya is strongarmed into being consort for *HIM*?!?!?!??!?!?!?!"  He was obese and slovenly and gross in a way that only evil should really be, and yes was still really powerful despite being...well...a fat ugly slob.  He was a fat ugly slob who rules a layer of hell with the hottest she-devil around as his woman and the power and authority of a mini-Satan.  Rock on, Mammon.  Now he's just..  I dunno...  lesser.  :/

And I still miss Belial and Geryon, but mostly Belial.

One thing I *am* behind in a big way, Glasya becomes Dutchess of her own layer of hell!  Rock on Babe!
(Yes, I had a sad but huge "I don't care if she's just a drawing" crush on Glasya as a proto-teen)  

And thanks or the response, Shem.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jan 11, 2007)

Wolv0rine said:
			
		

> Hmm, a huge hell-upheaving event where a few lines of text indicating a few changes and/or corrections (like "IT has since been confirmed that Tiamat is not, in fact, the duke of the 1st layer" or "In the time since sages last recorded the ranks of the hierarchy, Duke X had this happen to him..")  Gods what a shame.
> 
> 
> Ahh yes.  The eternal cross one must bear as a gamer from the 70's who never read Dragon magazine.  Eh, I'm used to _that_.
> ...




I don't know why they changed Mammon into a Geryon form.  It doesn't add anything interesting to the setting as far as I can see.  Maybe the same thinking behind making Orcus all ripped and shredded in his BOVD/FC1 pictures.  After all you can't be huge and grossly fat and be a Demon Prince/Arch Devil can you?   

There is some good stuff in the new book on the Hells that WOTC put out, which has most of the PS and 2e changes to Hell, but I find the work done by Greenwood in Dragon #75/76 are still more in line with how I see Hell in the D&D cosmology.


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## Shemeska (Jan 11, 2007)

Wolv0rine said:
			
		

> Possibly, possibly.  But the impression that I got from Planewalker.com was that this poor upper planer creature (since WHEN is Baalzebul a fallen upper planer being?!?  No, don't answer that...) dropped into the hells, and the devils there turned him into a slug-beast as some kind of cruel welcome to the 'hood joke at his expense.  It just robs him of any dignity he could achieve regardless of his power, y'know?




He still is a "nasty mo-fo", probably the one member of his ilk that I'd want least to have to deal with. He was originally an archon named Triel, and his fall from LG to LE saw him not in Baator as a punishment, but because he willingly joined the ranks of the Baatezu. It's somewhat muddled as to if he became a Lord of the 9 quickly, by seizing it from an earlier ruler, or being appointed to the position, or if he was forced to climb the heirarchy of Baator the old fashioned way: being melted down into a lemure and rising in rank from there on up the hard way over millennia, rank by rank. I suspect the latter, but in any event his becoming a fiend wasn't because of the alignment shift, but because of choice on his part and being intentionally turned into one by Asmodeus due to that choice. It makes him a more complex character, and explains much of the flavor behind his layer of Baator and why he acts the way he does.

But beyond that, the slug form wasn't a welcome to the 'hood joke, it wasn't his original form as Lot9. Now it's a question on if his original fly-headed form ala as depicted in 1e was a result of his transition from Mount Celestia to Baator, or a result of elevation to a Lot9, or self-chosen. But he had that form prior to the Reckoning, and the slug form was inflicted as punishment for his actions against Asmodeus during that event.


----------



## Ripzerai (Jan 11, 2007)

Wolv0rine said:
			
		

> and I so wish I hadn't.  I'd love to know whose 'bright idea' this was.




The name "the Reckoning" was coined by Chris Pramas in _Guide to Hell_, a post-Planescape WotC product. It gave a name to the diabolic insurrection first described by Monte Cook in _A Paladin in Hell_, which was an old-school homage to 1st edition published in the late '90s (post-Planescape).

But the story is much more involved than that. You see, way back in the _early_ '90s, the traditional demon names used for first edition lords of the netherworld were banned by TSR brass. So when Planescape designer Colin McComb needed to name the rulers of Baator, he came up with an almost entirely different set of characters - the warlord Bel, the disgusting slug Triel, the sadistic fop Molikroth, the riddling snake Minauros, the avenging hag Malagard, the unpredictable beauty Fierana, the manipulative Dispater, the imprisoned Levistus, and the shadowy, unnamed Dark Lord of Nessus.

That was all well and good. They're an interesting, varied set of villains. But people who remembered the first edition archdevils wondered what had happened to them. This began a long process of trying to reconcile the two sets of archfiends. Colin McComb suggested in _On Hallowed Ground_ and _Hellbound_ that the 1st edition archdevils were part of a long line of rulers that were deposed and replaced continually over the eons. Only Dispater remained of those that ancient texts refer to (and then only because Dispater had been mentioned in earlier Planescape products by different authors).

Now, people like Wolv0rine weren't satisfied by this. They _really_ liked the old, iconic rulers that Gary Gygax had set up and didn't like the radically different set, and they complained loudly about it on a relatively new medium called a message board - in this case, the ones TSR had set up on America Online. So Colin McComb tried out a different compromise in _Faces of Evil_, suggesting that the Planescape Lords of the Nine were only one guise of beings that had many alternate forms and disguises. He suggested that Fierana and Belial (without mentioning the name Belial, which he still wasn't allowed to use) were one and the same - different aspects of the same complex, mysterious entity.

In _A Paladin in Hell_, Monte Cook tried a completely different tack from either of those approaches. Instead of a series of coups and assassinations over a span of eons, he suggested there had been one cataclysmic rebellion, the cumulation of all the plots and rivalries mentioned in 1st edition materials, set thousands of years before the "present day." This rebellion became the driving force of the adventure's plot, which revolved around Geryon's attempt to regain his throne. Monte Cook preserved as many of the 1st edition rulers as he could via the "alternate aspect" theory, using the unnamed rebellion as an explanation for the transformations. 

Every subsequent presentation of those entities has used the _A Paladin in Hell_ backstory as its basis. 

As far as the Slug Archduke goes, I like him. He's the Jabba the Hutt of the Hells. Nobody laughs at him - they don't dare, because he has spies everywhere, and his powers are not diminished in any way by his change in form.  

Baalzebul's now the one rocking the "disgusting and gross in the way evil should be" appeal that Mammon used to have, except he does it much better. "Out of shape pit fiend" doesn't do it for me, but "maggoty Jabba the Hutt" does. Mammon is sleek and sinister.

In writing the Planewalker encyclopedia entries (I wrote all of them), I did err on the side of the Planescape interpretations of the various figures, while still incorporating new information. The description of Mammon in _Guide to Hell_ is much more old-school - Chris Pramas said that Mammon still takes on his old form when he goes on the hunt, riding a nightmare and accompanied by hell hounds. Mainly because a guy with the lower body of a snake would have difficulty riding a horse.


----------



## Wolv0rine (Jan 11, 2007)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> He still is a "nasty mo-fo", probably the one member of his ilk that I'd want least to have to deal with. He was originally an archon named Triel, and his fall from LG to LE saw him not in Baator as a punishment, but because he willingly joined the ranks of the Baatezu. It's somewhat muddled as to if he became a Lord of the 9 quickly, by seizing it from an earlier ruler, or being appointed to the position, or if he was forced to climb the heirarchy of Baator the old fashioned way: being melted down into a lemure and rising in rank from there on up the hard way over millennia, rank by rank. I suspect the latter, but in any event his becoming a fiend wasn't because of the alignment shift, but because of choice on his part and being intentionally turned into one by Asmodeus due to that choice. It makes him a more complex character, and explains much of the flavor behind his layer of Baator and why he acts the way he does.
> 
> But beyond that, the slug form wasn't a welcome to the 'hood joke, it wasn't his original form as Lot9. Now it's a question on if his original fly-headed form ala as depicted in 1e was a result of his transition from Mount Celestia to Baator, or a result of elevation to a Lot9, or self-chosen. But he had that form prior to the Reckoning, and the slug form was inflicted as punishment for his actions against Asmodeus during that event.




Hmm, yeah I can see that.  I dunno, though...  the initial fly-headed form at least spoke to the "Lord of the Flies" title he had, whereas his current sluggy form really gives a "Ahh, I don't get the title thing" impression.  Granted, Asmodeus is THE Authority of the hells, and if he wants to put the humility into you, I guess that's his right (although I always figured the Dukes of Hell were a little bit beyond something as simple as "You screwed the pooch, you get to be a slug now" and would require something a little more sinisterly devious and machevelian, but that's just me).

When it all comes down to it, it's a blatant combination of Gronardism and artistic/aethstic "But...  that's not *RIGHT*!"  But I can't escape it bugging me.

Again, I appreciate you indulging my indignation, Shem. 

And Flexor -- I'm right there with you, man.


----------



## Ripzerai (Jan 11, 2007)

Wolv0rine said:
			
		

> Hmm, yeah I can see that.  I dunno, though...  the initial fly-headed form at least spoke to the "Lord of the Flies" title he had, whereas his current sluggy form really gives a "Ahh, I don't get the title thing" impression.




He's still a fly. It's just that now he's in a larval stage - a maggot. Who knows what he'll metamorphose into in the future?


----------



## Wolv0rine (Jan 11, 2007)

Ripzerai said:
			
		

> The name "the Reckoning" was coined by Chris Pramas in _Guide to Hell_, a post-Planescape WotC product. It gave a name to the diabolic insurrection first described by Monte Cook in _A Paladin in Hell_, which was an old-school homage to 1st edition published in the late '90s (post-Planescape).
> 
> But the story is much more involved than that. You see, way back in the _early_ '90s, the traditional demon names used for first edition lords of the netherworld were banned by TSR brass. So when Planescape designer Colin McComb needed to name the rulers of Baator, he came up with an almost entirely different set of characters - the warlord Bel, the disgusting slug Triel, the sadistic fop Molikroth, the riddling snake Minauros, the avenging hag Malagard, the unpredictable beauty Fierana, the manipulative Dispater, the imprisoned Levistus, and the shadowy, unnamed Dark Lord of Nessus.
> 
> ...



*nods*  I remember the big crap-fest that disallowed the use of "Devil", "Demon", and anything that might allude to the fact that terrible, hateful evil things might actually be like, EVIL.  And the rest of your story does at least give some light to those of us (okay, Me) who casually side-steped all the goings-on with those various roducts during that era.  At least attempts were made to not throw the Duke out with the bathwater on 1, maybe 1.5 occasions. 
And like I said in my last post, there's a strong current of gronardism behind my problems with the whole lot.  It's the same vein as the Azbat Batman armor or the Electric-Blue Superman fiasco.  When you have good, strong, solid Icons, you're a fool to decide you need to start changing things with a sledgehammer.
As far as the Jabba-the-Hut thing, Geryon would have steped into that naturally enough, he was the right form to begin with.   It's a shame, really.  The towering, fat, slovenly evil is an iconic form of evil, fairly different from the sluggish Jabba slob evil.  I think trading one for the other is a shame, really.
I mean, I can see how it evolved within your synopsis, but gads it's a shame.  Next thing you know Wonder Wonam'll be trading in her super-bikini for an Emma Peel-esque 70's outfit. ;P


----------



## Wolv0rine (Jan 11, 2007)

Ripzerai said:
			
		

> He's still a fly. It's just that now he's in a larval stage - a maggot. Who knows what he'll metamorphose into in the future?



Now THAT is an interesting take that the Planewalker entry didn't seem to allude to.  I got 'slug', not 'maggot' from that.  
Although, it's hard to give credence to a maggot being "LORD of the Flies".  Funny in a kind of skewed comical way, but...  off.  

Come to think of it, I think part of my problem with this is the overt and baseball bat-like Metaplot that's emerging the more I read this stuff.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Jan 12, 2007)

Wolv0rine said:
			
		

> Now THAT is an interesting take that the Planewalker entry didn't seem to allude to.  I got 'slug', not 'maggot' from that.
> Although, it's hard to give credence to a maggot being "LORD of the Flies".  Funny in a kind of skewed comical way, but...  off.
> 
> Come to think of it, I think part of my problem with this is the overt and baseball bat-like Metaplot that's emerging the more I read this stuff.




I don't know if its metaplot so much as retconning.


----------



## Voadam (Jan 12, 2007)

A quick note that in addition to the other sources, Amon appears in the Book of Vile Darkness web enhancement. There he has 3e stats and is in exile with Geryon.

After the already noted Book of Fiends and Tome of Horrors there are also FFE's Encyclopedias of Demons and Devils for some third party details on  devil nobility, though many do not care for their treatment there. I don't remember offhand though if any of the creature collection devils are unique ones and I don't have the two follow up tome of horrors books to reference their contents.


----------



## RainOfSteel (Jan 12, 2007)

You know, the 1e material, especially Ed Greenwoods fabulous Dragon Articles (#75/#76 and #91), rocked.

The Planescape stuff was interesting, and my attempts to delve into my copy of A Paladin in Hell generally fail.

However, I like all the varying information.

When my players go to one place for information, they get one set of information.  "Geryon, immensely strong in his half-man/half-snake form, is ruler of the 5th."

When my players go to another place for information, "Levistus is ruler of the 5th, always has been.  What?  Geryon, you say?  Just another upstart, of no import.  Pay no attention to anything you hear about him."

What will be when they get there, that's yet another story, matching no official information so no matter what anyone has read, it won't be right.

Should they come back a second time, it may not be the same again.  Of course, what really happens is that they didn't understand what happened the first time.

Devils, and their realms, are somewhat tricksome.


----------



## BOZ (Jan 24, 2007)

*Keeping track of unique devils and major pit fiends*

Now that I have FC2, it’s time to get back to work on this.  

OK, in keeping with the hierarchical devils, one would think there should be a way to more easily keep track of them!    Well, here’s what I’m going to do, I’ll assign numbers to them arbitrarily based on the order they appeared in the D&D game.  (For the sake of argument, I’ll place MM2 before Dragon #75, since the articles there were intended as a “preview” for MM2).

For the most part, only the unique devils below have stats in the listed source.  Pit fiends (denoted with an – ooh – PF!) did not need stats, of course, as they don’t likely differ much from the standard, stat-wise.

Note that these listed here all appear on the index in the MM2 p44 as far as I know.  The next step would be to get into any unique devils who debuted in 2E (Levistus, Fierna, and Zariel, for example), as well as any pit fiends who have roles in Hell’s hierarchy (and the Dark Eight), and any that may have debuted in WotC’s 3E as well, and then figure out what order they go in.

Note that below I did not list the pit fiend Bel listed in MM2 and Dragon 75 as a servant of Dispater; was he the same Bel who now rules Avernus, or a different being with the same name?

Monster Manual
1. Asmodeus (and why shouldn’t he be #1 anyway?)
2. Baalzebul
3. Dispater
4. Geryon

Monster Manual II
5. Amon
6. Bael
7. Belial
8. Glasya
9. Hutijin
10. Mammon
11. Mephistopheles
12. Moloch
13. Titivilus

Dragon #75
14. Bitru
15. Amduscias
16. Malphas
17. Goap (PF)
18. Nergal
19. Bist
20. Caim
21. Lilis
22. Arioch
23. Biffant
24. Merodach
25. Alocer
26. Focalor
27. Caarcrinolaas
28. Melchon
29. Zimmimar (PF)
30. Naome
31. Chamo
32. Balan
33. Bathym
34. Gaziel
35. Zaebos (PF)
36. Zapan (PF)
37. Cozbi
38. Gorson
39. Herodias
40. Agares
41. Machalas
42. Fecor (PF)

Dragon #76
43. Lilith
44. Tartach
45. Bileth
46. Bethage (PF)
47. Herobaal (PF)
48. Baftis
49. Neabaz
50. Barbatos
51. Abigor
52. Zepar
53. Baalphegor
54. Bele
55. Adonides
56. Barbas
57. Bifrons
58. Nexroth (PF)
59. Bensozia
60. Adramalech
61. Phongor
62. Buer
63. Bune
64. Morax
65. Rimmon
66. Zagum
67. Alastor the Grim (PF)
68. Martinet (PF)
69. Baalberith (PF)

Dragon #91
70. Armaros
71. Azazel
72. Cahor
73. Dagon
74. Duskur
75. Kochibel
76. Malarea
77. Nisroch
78. Rumjal
79. Gargoth (aka demigod from the FR)

Dragon #42
80. Selm, Prince of Possessors (and Thyle, Cykes, Tyd, Nausyyd, Dyclex, Hyrkovan)


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## Ripzerai (Jan 25, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Note that these listed here all appear on the index in the MM2 p44 as far as I know.  The next step would be to get into any unique devils who debuted in 2E (Levistus, Fierna, and Zariel, for example)




Add Martinet, who was a pit fiend in the 1e MM2 but promoted to unique status in _Guide to Hell_ and _Book of Vile Darkness_.

Also add Selm, Prince of Possessors, from Dragon #42. He's in Asmodeus' court. He's served by six lesser nobles - Thyle, Cykes, Tyd, Nausyyd, Dyclex, and Hyrkovan - but they might be treated as incorporeal pit fiends or Fiends of Possession.



> Note that below I did not list the pit fiend Bel listed in MM2 and Dragon 75 as a servant of Dispater; was he the same Bel who now rules Avernus




I assume he was. It's possible to give a devil the name of its predecessor in those cases when the rulers of Baator are deliberately trying to sow confusion - most of the Dark Eight are not the originally bearers of their name - but I see no reason for this to be done in the case of Bel. Bel is a very, very old pit fiend according to _Guide to Hell_ and the _Hellbound_ timeline, older than some of the Nine.


----------



## BOZ (Jan 26, 2007)

Ripzerai said:
			
		

> Add Martinet, who was a pit fiend in the 1e MM2 but promoted to unique status in _Guide to Hell_ and _Book of Vile Darkness_.




yeah, i got him on there (#67), but tracking the changes is exactly what i'm trying to do, so thanks.  



			
				Ripzerai said:
			
		

> Also add Selm, Prince of Possessors, from Dragon #42. He's in Asmodeus' court. He's served by six lesser nobles - Thyle, Cykes, Tyd, Nausyyd, Dyclex, and Hyrkovan - but they might be treated as incorporeal pit fiends or Fiends of Possession.




good catch - guess i just didn't realize that they were servants of Asmodeus. 



			
				Ripzerai said:
			
		

> I assume he was. It's possible to give a devil the name of its predecessor in those cases when the rulers of Baator are deliberately trying to sow confusion - most of the Dark Eight are not the originally bearers of their name - but I see no reason for this to be done in the case of Bel. Bel is a very, very old pit fiend according to _Guide to Hell_ and the _Hellbound_ timeline, older than some of the Nine.




for the sake of argument, i might as well go with the assumption that the pit fiend Bel who served Dispater is now the unique fiend who rules Avernus.  would it be safe to assume, then, that while under Dispater's service, he began a relationship with Zariel, spending more and more time with her and not so much at his duties (unless that _was_ a part of his appointed duties), until he did the unexpected(?) and took over the first layer?


so, for the 2E-era debuting baatezu lords... where were Levistus and Fierna first described?  Planes of Law, or Faces of Evil, or was it that Dragon article or somewhere else altogether?

was Zariel first mentioned in in Guide to Hell?

as for the Dark Eight, we know that #29 Zimmimar, #35 Zaebos, and #36 Zapan left their former masters to join this organization.  who else was in the Dark Eight, and do we know anything about their previous functions/affiliations?

a few Dukes/pit fiends were introduced in Faces of Evil.  Morsch is the commander of Mammon's armies.  Nexroth commands a company of pit fiends for Molikroth/Mephistopheles (or was he in 1E and i just missed him?).  

good ol' Gazra also came in at some point in Planescape.  Planes of Law?

what other uniques and pit fiends in the hierarchy of Hell that debuted in 2E am i missing?

i'll get on to 3E next... one step at a time.


----------



## Shemeska (Jan 26, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> was Zariel first mentioned in in Guide to Hell?




She was first given a name in GtH, though the existance of a predecessor to Bel that he toppled had been described earlier than that.



> as for the Dark Eight, we know that #29 Zimmimar, #35 Zaebos, and #36 Zapan left their former masters to join this organization.  who else was in the Dark Eight, and do we know anything about their previous functions/affiliations?




The other members of the Dark Eight are as follows, but of them, only Baalzephon is the same pit fiend who was there when the group was founded by the pit fiend Cantrum. All of the others are later pit fiends who usurped the earlier holder, assumed their name, and in the grand tradition of Baatorian historybooks, rewrote the official histories to reflect them rather than the fiend whose name and position they had taken ("I am the new Corin, you are number 6" sort of thing)

Corin
Dagos - Bel served under Dagos at some point in the past, and depending on who you ask, Bel still answers to Dagos in matters of the Blood War, Lord of the 9 status or not for Bel
Paerza (the most recent iteration of Pearza was recently killed and replaced with a new Pearza. That one was female, the new one is male)
Baalzephon
Furcas (one of the original members of the Dark 8, but recently killed and replaced. Furcas is dead, long live Furcas)
Cantrum - would have been the 9th member. Long dead at the hands of a subordinate, though popular legend (falsely) claims that a mortal paladin killed him.

Off the top of my head, I don't think that all of them have had their original positions in the courts of the Lords of the 9 defined. Bel conceivably was positioned within the noble court of Zariel after having killed and usurped the position of another pit fiend warlord under her dominion, but how this works out with his affiliations with Dagos and the future members of the Dark 8 is uncertain. Some of the others we know their original affiliation prior to the Reckoning, but I've used the Baatezu less than the other fiends, so I don't recall off the top of my head which ones were in the service of which. I'd need to check.



> what other uniques and pit fiends in the hierarchy of Hell that debuted in 2E am i missing?




There's a lot of pit fiends...

But off the top of my head, since I used her in a story I wrote, there's the female pit fiend Lydzin, commander of the mobile Baatezu fortress 'The Relentless'. (_Hellbound_ - Squaring the Circle)


----------



## Ripzerai (Jan 26, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> would it be safe to assume, then, that while under Dispater's service, he began a relationship with Zariel, spending more and more time with her and not so much at his duties (unless that _was_ a part of his appointed duties), until he did the unexpected(?) and took over the first layer?




No, it's clear he was serving Zariel at the time of his coup. If he ever served Dispater, it was before that. I'm thinking he got transferred at some point - perhaps he turned traitor on Dispater during the Reckoning, when Dispater and Zariel were on opposite sides.

Remember that the Reckoning was thousands of years ago.



> so, for the 2E-era debuting baatezu lords... where were Levistus and Fierna first described?  Planes of Law, or Faces of Evil, or was it that Dragon article or somewhere else altogether?




Planes of Law gave the first hint of their existence, but didn't detail them all.



> was Zariel first mentioned in in Guide to Hell?




That was her first mention by name, though she was referred to as early as Planes of Law.



> as for the Dark Eight, we know that #29 Zimmimar, #35 Zaebos, and #36 Zapan left their former masters to join this organization.  who else was in the Dark Eight, and do we know anything about their previous functions/affiliations?




The Dark Eight are:

    * Baalzephon, Master of Supply (female)
    * Furcas, Minister of Mortal Relations
    * Corin, Spymaster of Baator
    * Dagos, Marshall of the Pits
    * Zimimar, Minister of Morale (female)
    * Zaebos, Minister of Promotions and Demotions
    * Zapan, Minister of Immortal Relations
    * Pearza, Minister of Research and Development (female)

Baalzephon originally served Dispater as his Prime Minister before being recruited by the pit fiend Cantrum into the then-secret cabal known as the Dark Nine. Furcas served Dispater as a commander of barbazu. Zimimar served Mammon as a commander of osyluths. Zaebos was Belial's lieutenant, and Zapan commanded cornugons for Belial.

Corin, Dagos, Pearza, and Cantrum were all first mentioned in the Monstrous Compendium Outer Planes Appendix. Their backgrounds are not known.

Note that of the original Dark Nine, only Baalzephon survives. The others are all replacements given the same names as their predecessors to preserve the illusion of continuity.

Baalzephon also plays a big part in the Greyhawk supplement _Ivid the Undying_.



> Nexroth commands a company of pit fiends for Molikroth/Mephistopheles (or was he in 1E and i just missed him?).




Nexroth was in 1e as a commander of 16 companies of malebranche.



> good ol' Gazra also came in at some point in Planescape.




Nope. Gazra was first mentioned in the Monstrous Compendium Outer Planes Appendix under the hamatula entry.



> what other uniques and pit fiends in the hierarchy of Hell that debuted in 2E am i missing?




There's Zaggutch, a pit fiend lieutenant of Dispater who is one of the chief villains in the Planescape adventure _Fires of Dis_.

Balruhk the Invincible is a pit fiend general who plays a part in the fiend article in Dragon #306. He seems to serve the Dark Eight, rather than any specific Lord of the Nine (since he's a general in the Blood War). Though with the horrible set-up in Fiendish Codex II, that means he serves Bel. I really wish that book hadn't been published. For all its good qualities, some of it was just execrable. 

Archduke Thulikazt is a pit fiend "of almost godlike power" mentioned in Dragon #313, page 70. He's dead now, though.


----------



## BOZ (Jan 26, 2007)

Ripzerai said:
			
		

> No, it's clear he was serving Zariel at the time of his coup. If he ever served Dispater, it was before that. I'm thinking he got transferred at some point - perhaps he turned traitor on Dispater during the Reckoning, when Dispater and Zariel were on opposite sides.
> 
> Remember that the Reckoning was thousands of years ago.




So something like “ancient records state that Bel once served Dispater, but for as long as anyone can seem to remember he has been on Avernus.”



			
				Ripzerai said:
			
		

> Planes of Law gave the first hint of their existence, but didn't detail them all.






			
				Shemeska said:
			
		

> She was first given a name in GtH, though the existance of a predecessor to Bel that he toppled had been described earlier than that.






			
				Ripzerai said:
			
		

> That was her first mention by name, though she was referred to as early as Planes of Law.




OK good, I’ll worry about Zariel, Levistus and Fierna later.  



			
				Shemeska said:
			
		

> The other members of the Dark Eight are as follows, but of them, only Baalzephon is the same pit fiend who was there when the group was founded by the pit fiend Cantrum. All of the others are later pit fiends who usurped the earlier holder, assumed their name, and in the grand tradition of Baatorian historybooks, rewrote the official histories to reflect them rather than the fiend whose name and position they had taken ("I am the new Corin, you are number 6" sort of thing)
> 
> Corin
> Dagos - Bel served under Dagos at some point in the past, and depending on who you ask, Bel still answers to Dagos in matters of the Blood War, Lord of the 9 status or not for Bel
> ...






			
				Shemeska said:
			
		

> The Dark Eight are:
> 
> * Baalzephon, Master of Supply (female)
> * Furcas, Minister of Mortal Relations
> ...




Thanks; I’ll figure out how I want to make use of them.    probably not much though, but I don’t want to skip over them either.


Was Morsch, the commander of Mammon's armies, mentioned anywhere other than Faces of Evil?



			
				Ripzerai said:
			
		

> Nexroth was in 1e as a commander of 16 companies of malebranche.




D’oh!  Missed him…



			
				Ripzerai said:
			
		

> Nope. Gazra was first mentioned in the Monstrous Compendium Outer Planes Appendix under the hamatula entry.




Ah, right!  It’s easy to forget that MC8 had at least as much influence on the early development of Planescape as did the MotP and the various 1E sources…

And so Gazra’s crystal castle and hamathula army are indeed described in MC8 (the references in which, are repeated in PS-MC1)

Also, it looks like the Dark Eight were first described in MC8, most likely as a replacement for the original 1E Lords of the Nine (a concept which had to be dumped at the time).

Bel is also described therein, as an honored pit fiend commander who patrols Avernus.

Under the Spinagon entry, it is noted that a pit fiend named Greth once advanced a spinagon to a hamatula, but I have no idea if he’s mentioned again anywhere else.



			
				Shemeska said:
			
		

> There's a lot of pit fiends...




Well, true… but I’m not interested in all of them, just the ones that play(ed) important roles in the hierarchy of the Lords of the Nine.  I could go on forever, but I’d like to limit my research to only 100 hellish nobles or so.  



			
				Shemeska said:
			
		

> But off the top of my head, since I used her in a story I wrote, there's the female pit fiend Lydzin, commander of the mobile Baatezu fortress 'The Relentless'. (_Hellbound_ - Squaring the Circle)






			
				Shemeska said:
			
		

> There's Zaggutch, a pit fiend lieutenant of Dispater who is one of the chief villains in the Planescape adventure _Fires of Dis_.
> 
> Balruhk the Invincible is a pit fiend general who plays a part in the fiend article in Dragon #306. He seems to serve the Dark Eight, rather than any specific Lord of the Nine (since he's a general in the Blood War). Though with the horrible set-up in Fiendish Codex II, that means he serves Bel. I really wish that book hadn't been published. For all its good qualities, some of it was just execrable.
> 
> Archduke Thulikazt is a pit fiend "of almost godlike power" mentioned in Dragon #313, page 70. He's dead now, though.




Thanks – I’ll research all of that when I can.  Besides Planes of Law, Hellbound, and Faces of Evil (i.e., the obvious ones), where else do I need to research in Planescape for info on the Lords of the Nine and their power structure?  I mean even the little bits and pieces of info scattered about…


----------



## Shemeska (Feb 2, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Besides Planes of Law, Hellbound, and Faces of Evil (i.e., the obvious ones), where else do I need to research in Planescape for info on the Lords of the Nine and their power structure?  I mean even the little bits and pieces of info scattered about…




Some tidbits in 'On Hallowed Ground', and then another obvious one in McComb's 'Lords of the 9' article.

_Fires of Dis_ features Dispater himself and his tower in Dis and some other portions of the city.

_Tales of the Infinite Staircase_ has some tidbits about the relationship between the Kytons of Jangling Hiter, their nominal Baatezu ruler, and their true leader.

I'll look around for some obscure stuff when I'm not at work and just trying to pull stuff from memory.


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## BOZ (Feb 6, 2007)

thanks Shem.  

in the meantime, i'm starting another thread, hoping to straighten a few things first to make it more easier to make more sense of this stuff.  

you won't miss it - it's a big 'un.


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## Celebrim (Feb 6, 2007)

The most reasonable explanation is that everything which has ever been written about the heirarchy of the nine hells is wrong, and dangerously so.  There may be a seed of truth in one of the articles, but only so much as to cause you to believe that you know far more than you actually do.  This fiend is the lord of the 5th.  No this one.  No this one.  No this one usurped that one a couple years ago.  Wait, they've already been usurped as well. The writers would have us believe that the heirarchy of hell is more unstable the the lords of the abyss.   So much has been written which is quite obviously wrong.  For example, from 'Planewalker.com' 



> They hold various titles such as baron(ess), count(ess), prince(ss), and duke/duchess, the meanings of which vary according to the Lord bestowing them.




So, here we are in the very embodiment of lawful evilness, and titles have no fixed meaning, no traditional role, no force of law, but they are merely the whim of the ruler that bestows them.  Since when does any lawful - evil or otherwise - rule by mere whim, or since when do thier subjects obey merely out of fear alone, and since when does any lawful society not weigh its positions, entitlements, rights, duties, and responcibilities to a nicety.  In a lawful society, when you give out a title, the position doesn't necessarily serve just at your pleasure (it can, but titles like baron, count, duke ect. aren't examples of them).  You are parceling out authority which cannot be easily revoked without 'just' cause.  Either you have enfuedated someone or who haven't, and if you haven't you can't expect thier loyalty.


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## BOZ (Feb 8, 2007)

OK, here are the 2E and 3E dukes and pit fiends of the Lo9's heirarchy/power structure that i've found, adding on to anyone already mentioned in post #41.  if i'm missing anyone significant let me know.

Monstrous Compendium 8
81. Bel (PF), possibly once servant of Dispater, probably now lord of Avernus.
82. Gazra
83. Other Dark Eight members (Corin, Dagos, Paerza, Baalzephon, Furcas), Cantrum (long dead)

Planescape
84. Levistus (PoL)
85. Fierna (PoL, unnamed, named in Dragon #223)
86. Morsch, commander of Mammon’s armies (FoE)
87. Zariel (GtH, first named and detailed, though mentioned several times previously)

FC2
88. Glwa (Mammon’s “new” consort)
89. Bechard, Buldumech, Guland, Silcharde, Sphandor (pit fiends in service to Mephistopheles)


Glwa.  Here’s a nice odd case.  You might think that the first place she is ever mentioned is FC2, as it is maintained for almost all of Mammon’s appearances that Glasya was his consort.  Not so.  She is not mentioned in the list of devils in the old MM2… but, there is a near-identical list that she _is_ on in Dragon #75, in Gary Gygax’s “New Denizens of Devildom” article.  Note that in this list, which was probably in print before the MM2 list was finalized, Glwa is listed as Mammon’s consort, and Glasya is not in the list at all.  However, in the text of the same article, Glasya is described as Mammon’s consort!  Perhaps Glwa was either a typo/misprint, or was going to be the original name of Mammon’s consort, or was a totally different being, and some time before the article was actually printed Gygax changed his mind and went with Glasya (or corrected the mistake part-way, or whatever).   Here’s an in-game explanation that I like:

Mammon’s original consort was a devil named Glwa, but Asmodeus’ beautiful daughter Glasya caught his attention and he left Glwa for her.  When Glasya became the lady of her own layer, Mammon took his spurned ex-lover back, though he still lusts after Glasya.


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## Ripzerai (Feb 8, 2007)

Celebrim said:
			
		

> The writers would have us believe that the heirarchy of hell is more unstable the the lords of the abyss.




Keep in mind that the changes in the hierarchy have taken place over many thousands of years. During that time, it's remained remarkably stable, considering how cut-throat and ambitious devils are - nearly all the nobles that existed all those thousands of years before the Reckoning are still doing the same jobs today. 

Compare this with the Abyss, where minor demon lords and entire Abyssal layers rise and fall continuously.



> So, here we are in the very embodiment of lawful evilness, and titles have no fixed meaning, no traditional role, no force of law, but they are merely the whim of the ruler that bestows them.




You've got it all wrong. They certainly have traditions and force of law, but each archdevil represents a different, incompatible strain of Order. That's a major theme in the Nine Hells, that there are _nine_ of them, nine flavors of Law that each seek to be dominant over the others. Baalzebul's order is not Belial's order, for all they might be allies. Dispater's order is not the order of Mephistopheles, and it is certainly not the order of Levistus.

So nine different hierarchies, nine different ways of ordering the multiverse, nine visions of tyrannical Order, the lesser eight subordinate for the time being to Asmodeus' greater hierarchy. But Asmodeus' rule is tenuous, depending on keeping his subordinates focused on one another.


----------



## Ripzerai (Feb 8, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> 83. Other Dark Eight members (Corin, Dagos, Paerza, Baalzephon, Furcas), Cantrum (long dead)




Baalzephon and Furcas were mentioned in 1st edition. They both formally worked for Dispater. Baalzephon was Dispater's Prime Minister, and Furcas led 12 companies of barbazu.

What's more, it was the same Baalzephon and Furcas in the Dark Eight in Planescape. They were the only two remaining originals. FC2 says the original Furcas has finally died, though, because its authors apparently liked the idea of killing off an interesting character for no reason.

Baalzephon also plays a major role in _Ivid the Undying_.



> 89. Bechard, Buldumech, Guland, Silcharde, Sphandor (pit fiends in service to Mephistopheles)




They were all mentioned in Dragon #76, page 28. Of course, this was kind of a bad call on the part of the FC2 authors, since the whole point of Mephistopheles' Molikroth ploy was to weed out his disloyal pit fiends (and Dragon #76 makes it clear they were all disloyal, encouraged to be so by Baalzebul). They should all be dead. _Someone_ should have died during that episode, or why did he bother?



> Glwa.  Here’s a nice odd case.  You might think that the first place she is ever mentioned is FC2, as it is maintained for almost all of Mammon’s appearances that Glasya was his consort.  Not so.




Oo, interesting find! I thought the name Glwa sounded familiar! This was actually a nice touch on the part of the FC2 authors.

Your theory sounds plausible, too.


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## Desdichado (Feb 8, 2007)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> But on a more serious note, I don't envy Schwalb and Laws for having to try to make a coherent book from all the contradictory and scattered sources on Baator, and at the same time try to avoid pissing folks off by what they didn't include.



Not to mention the re-occurance of names amongst both demons and devils (Dagon in particular comes to mind, but I think there were others.)  I guess that's what you can expect when both of them dip into the same well of inspirational sources though.


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## BOZ (Feb 8, 2007)

Ripzerai said:
			
		

> Baalzephon and Furcas were mentioned in 1st edition. They both formally worked for Dispater. Baalzephon was Dispater's Prime Minister, and Furcas led 12 companies of barbazu.
> 
> What's more, it was the same Baalzephon and Furcas in the Dark Eight in Planescape. They were the only two remaining originals. FC2 says the original Furcas has finally died, though, because its authors apparently liked the idea of killing off an interesting character for no reason.
> 
> Baalzephon also plays a major role in _Ivid the Undying_.




they sure were!  not sure how i missed them... they were on the list in MM2, and mentioned in Dragon 75.



			
				Ripzerai said:
			
		

> They were all mentioned in Dragon #76, page 28. Of course, this was kind of a bad call on the part of the FC2 authors, since the whole point of Mephistopheles' Molikroth ploy was to weed out his disloyal pit fiends (and Dragon #76 makes it clear they were all disloyal, encouraged to be so by Baalzebul). They should all be dead. _Someone_ should have died during that episode, or why did he bother?




d'oh!  yeah, they sure were mentioned in that article.  and yeah, i've been wondering that myself - if he was trying to weed people out of his court, why is everyone still there? 

here's my idea.  you know how the pit fiends in the Dark Eight get killed and replaced, their identities changed to match their predeccessor?  well, we can apply that same system here...



			
				Ripzerai said:
			
		

> Oo, interesting find! I thought the name Glwa sounded familiar! This was actually a nice touch on the part of the FC2 authors.
> 
> Your theory sounds plausible, too.




yeah, i thought so myself.  i just happened to be looking at that chart and i said, "hey, wait a minute..."


----------



## BOZ (Feb 8, 2007)

OK.    I think I learned everything from the other thread that I needed to learn for this little project.  To summarize the history of the Lords of the Nine (rather than the history of Baator, per se):

Asmodeus is probably the oldest devil in existence, probably the first of his kind.  When he first came to Baator, he brought a number of his servants with him to set up a ruling hierarchy that would serve his purposes.  Among the original eight lords he chose to rule his Hell were apparently long-time compatriots Dispater, Mephistopheles, and one who became lord of the seventh layer, whose name is lost to pre-history.  In-fighting, backstabbing, betrayals, and assassinations led to the other 5 lords being dethroned or destroyed, and their replacements were in turn replaced over and over by now-forgotten lords in the ensuing millennia.  One by one, over time, Zariel, Mammon, Belial, Levistus, and Beherit took charge over the remaining five layers and the Lords of the Nine stabilized and cemented their rule.

Asmodeus was not entirely happy with this arrangement, however, and always sought ways to remake the Lords of the Nine more to his liking.  He brokered an unprecedented deal with Tiamat, giving her free reign over Avernus as she saw fit, so long as she helped to keep out invaders and made no trouble for the Lord of the First or the devils therein (Zariel also used this arrangement to make it seem that Tiamat was in charge of Avernus, letting her work behind the scenes); thusly, Asmodeus exerts direct control over “both ends” of the Hells.  His perfect prodigy came to the Hells in the form of a fallen archon named Triel.  Asmodeus groomed his new discovery, renaming him Baalzebul, and transforming him into a unique baatezu; Asmodeus then removed his old compatriot, the lord of the Seventh, and set Baalzebul in his place.  Levistus betrayed Asmodeus by slaying his consort, so he locked the treacherous lord away in a block of ice, and replaced him with the ever-loyal Geryon.  Beherit and his consort also betrayed him by attempting to circumvent the natural order of Baator by producing a descendant to replace Asmodeus, so Asmodeus slew them all.  Asmodeus offered his prize pupil the opportunity to rule the Sixth layer, so Baalzebul placed his vassal Moloch as lord of the Sixth.  With this setup complete, Asmodeus enjoyed nearly full control over Baator for millennia until betrayal came.  (Thus, we have the 1st edition hierarchy.)

Baalzebul and his allies, Moloch, Zariel, and Belial, struck against the other four lords, Mephistopheles, Dispater, Mammon, and Geryon (who also wanted to unseat and replace Asmodeus on their own terms), beginning a conflict that became known as the Reckoning.  Only Geryon remained loyal to Asmodeus, betraying the rest at a crucial moment.  As a punishment to his former favorite, Baalzebul, Asmodeus transformed him into a slug-like creature and banished his vassal Moloch to Avernus; Moloch’s consort Malagarde the Hag Countess was allowed to rule in his stead for a time.  Geryon was also removed from his position, with Levistus reinstated in his place.  Except for Dispater, the lords of the Nine took on deceptions for a time to change the face of the Hells after the failure of the Reckoning.  Belial began to share power with his daughter Fierna and stayed in the background.

Bel, a powerful pit fiend on Avernus began to share power with Zariel.  In time, he betrayed her fully, trapping her within the plane and leeching energy from her.  Asmodeus was content with the status quo of the current lords of the Nine, and they ruled for many years until the present day.  Asmodeus always wished to have his daughter Glasya as one of the nine lords, but her disobedient behavior made her unlikely as an ally. (Thus, we have the Planescape Lords of the Nine.)

In time, Geryon’s despair over losing his position continued to increase, and he was torn apart by Asmodeus.  His death released great energies which Asmodeus used to empower Glasya, who had eventually come around to his way of thinking; when combined with the recent death of the Hag Countess, this allowed him to finally install Glasya as the new lord of the Sixth.  The remainders of Geryon’s energies continue to linger on as a vestige, a phenomenon that Asmodeus keenly wishes to study for his own use.  Levistus and Belial worry that they will be the next to be replaced, and all the other lords shudder in fear at Asmodeus’ displays of power and guile.

With these key points of this history in mind, I’m going to attempt to figure out where the rest of the nobility of Hell fits into the power structure.  Who did they serve, and when, and what were their positions, etc.


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## Ripzerai (Feb 8, 2007)

One thing to keep in mind is that there was, some time before the Reckoning, a major reshuffling of pit fiends. Baalzephon and Furcas worked for Dispater originally, and Zaebos and Zapan worked for Belial. Yet by the time of the Reckoning, each of the Dark Nine worked for a separate Lord of the Nine. Sometime between the time that Cantrum recruited them and the time they finally revealed themselves they managed to not only get themselves transferred but to climb to the top of the military ranks on their layers.

Perhaps Bel was transferred at the same time. It's clear than many others besides the core Nine were in on the scheme, or the armies wouldn't have followed the Dark Nine in preference to their own lords. Bel might have been a second-in-command of some sort, ready to step in to do his duty should something happen to his commander.

So, hypothetically, I'll say that immediately pre-Reckoning the ranks looked like this:

Avernus - Dagos (he's the most like Bel, and still Bel's superior even today if you believe Hellbound)
Dis - Furcas (because Baalzephon had a non-military position in Dis, it makes sense that she'd make her way up the military ranks elsewhere)
Minauros - Zimimar (no contest)
Stygia - Baalzephon (easy access to the Styx seems appropriate for the future Supply Master)
Phlegethos - Zaebos (Belial's lieutenant)
Malbolge - Zapan (experience leading cornugons)
Maladomini - Corin (the future spymaster fits the Lord of the Flies)
Cania - Pearza (whose interest in research meshes with Mephistopheles' consort Baalphegor)
Nessus - Cantrum (the leader)

Many of these pit fiends could have worked for their respective Lords all along. Primarily, Baalzephon managed to get herself transferred to the layer of Dispater's ally Geryon, and Zapan managed to get himself moved to the layer of Belial's ally Moloch. 

Was it during this period of reshuffling that Bel betrayed Dispater for his enemy Zariel? Or perhaps he secretly worked for Zariel all along, and he was a mole in Dispater's court, only revealing his true allegiance when the Reckoning began - and then revealing he actually worked for Dagos and the Dark Nine - and _then_ betraying Zariel a second time to usurp her layer completely. That's what we'd expect from the inventor of the Four-Cross.


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## Shade (Feb 8, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> yeah, i thought so myself.  i just happened to be looking at that chart and i said, "hey, wait a minute..."




Sweet!  Good catch on your part, and nice egg-hiding on the authors' part.


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## BOZ (Feb 8, 2007)

Rip, I like that set up.    Did you invent that now, or have you had that in mind for some time?



			
				Ripzerai said:
			
		

> Was it during this period of reshuffling that Bel betrayed Dispater for his enemy Zariel? Or perhaps he secretly worked for Zariel all along, and he was a mole in Dispater's court, only revealing his true allegiance when the Reckoning began - and then revealing he actually worked for Dagos and the Dark Nine - and _then_ betraying Zariel a second time to usurp her layer completely. That's what we'd expect from the inventor of the Four-Cross.




I’m definitely going with the idea that Bel worked in Dispater’s court prior to moving to Avernus.  I think Asmodeus has had his eye on Bel for a good long time, and probably ordered his transfer (through enough intermediaries that his involvement would not have been obvious), so that he could later put Bel into place and put Zariel out of commission, tricking Bel into a position that kept Bel’s influence over Avernus to a minimum.  Although Bel and Dagos’ transfers to Avernus coincided to work with Asmodeus’ plan, I’d expect that they were carried out separately (and that Bel wouldn’t have known the connection to Dagos’ placement in the army).  Sound plausible?

We can mix and match that idea with yours to get something that makes sense, or perhaps one idea or the other are simply superior.


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## Ripzerai (Feb 8, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Did you invent that now, or have you had that in mind for some time?




I just invented it now. I think it actually contradicts some of what I had come up with earlier, since I think before I had Corin be from Cania  (since I had his mask be made of ice).

I don't see any problems with the rest of your ideas.


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## BOZ (Feb 9, 2007)

Cool, let's stick with that then.

OK.  Let’s do this one plane at a time.  

AVERNUS


			
				Dragon #75 said:
			
		

> [Tiamat] rules her spawn by force and fear, but her will is enforced on Avernus by 40 companies of abishai under the command of Malphas, 29 similar companies led by Amduscius, and 3 companies of erinyes under the command of the pit fiend Goap. These forces are always busy, for Avernus is constantly dealing with intruders and the machinations of the “rabble of devilkin” – former consorts fallen from favor, and other unique devils too weak or too mistrusted to gain or hold a position in the hierarchy of the hells.



  I’ll get into the Outcast Dukes later; though they currently play no part in Hell’s hierarchy, they are significant enough for a mention.  “There are approximately fifty of these lesser unique devils; embittered, frustrated beings who torment the lemures and spined devils of this plane and viciously attack all intruders.”



			
				Dragon #75 said:
			
		

> Amduscias is a duke in the service of Tiamat, ruler of Avernus, and leads 29 companies of abishai. He is a being of long memory and cunning strategies. He can shape change at will into a dirty yellow unicorn with eyes of flame and a purple horn, a hawk-headed man (he usually wears dark red or black robes when in this form), or his favored form: a wolf with a prehensile, constricting serpent’s tail. He does not need, and does not wear, armor in any of his forms.
> When in unicorn form, Amduscias attacks with his horn (acts as a sword of wounding, for 2-9 damage), or his hooves (2 per round, for 2-10 damage each)…
> In human-like form Amduscias has average dexterity, and two or three attacks (fists for 1-2 each and beak for 1-8, or weapon and beak). Amduscias is ambidextrous and can wield two weapons if they are small (e.g., daggers or darts). This devil has above average strength when in human-like form, and a long, curved beak somewhat like a hummingbird’s in appearance. This beak is, however, terrifically strong and sharp…
> Amduscias prefers to fight in wolf form; … and he attacks with two raking foreclaws and his jaws, or his hind claws and tail. If in a position to do so, he can use all six of these attacks in a round, against as many targets. The claws do 3-12 damage each, the jaws 1-20, and the tail 1-10 constriction damage per round plus additional damage if Amduscias uses it to immerse a held victim in water, batter a victim against a rock, etc…
> Amduscias is sometimes called the “Reconciliator of Foes,” because he is a skillful actor and negotiator, and Tiamat often employs him to mediate in disputes between devils or her kin. While in any of his forms, Amduscias can speak and understand perfectly any language (cf. tongues spell)…






			
				Dragon #75 said:
			
		

> Malphas is a duke in the service of Tiamat, ruler of Avernus. He leads 40 companies of abishai, and, like his fellow duke Amduscias and the pit fiend Goap, is likely to be found traveling about Avernus enforcing Tiamat’s will. None of Tiamat’s dukes have permanent encampments or fortresses, but instead they maintain a commonly held system of guarded, “safe” caves where their forces can rest or gather.
> Malphas appears as a powerful, dark-complexioned man dressed in black velvet studded with gems (of considerable value; his robes have 333 gems of all sorts, 100 g.p. base value each, if recovered complete), or as a large, black, crow-like bird.
> Malphas shuns armor, and fights with all weapons (and his spell-like powers) when in human form. His voice is deep and compelling, and with his powers of tongues and ESP (usable at will), he is adept at deceiving others, particularly non-devils…
> Once per round, at will, Malphas can use one of his spell-like powers: tongues or ESP (as noted above), pyrotechnics, produce flame, fortress (this creates a structure similar to Daern’s Instant Fortress - see the DMG - in all respects, save that its door will open and close for anyone, and it will disappear in 16 turns or when Malphas wills), detect invisibility, read magic, dispel magic, flame arrow (Malphas can also apply this to blades wielded by himself or others; these become flame tongue swords - fiery damage, but no “to hit” bonuses - for 3 rounds), and remove (or bestow) curse. Once per day Malphas can use a symbol of pain, and he can cause fear (save vs. spell at -2 to avoid) by touch (one target per round)…







			
				Faces of Evil: The Fiends said:
			
		

> His servants include the dukes Amduscias, Malphas, and Goap. They too are warlords and generals.




So, probably, they either switched off between Tiamat and Bel, or swear fealty to both, or are primarily the servants of one, but assist the other.  You know though, given the fact that both dukes command companies of abishai, it does make sense that they would be working more with Tiamat.



			
				Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells said:
			
		

> The only unique devils in the hierarchy of the Nine Hells who make their home in Avernus are Amduscias and Malphas, both of whom are servitors of Tiamat.




So, the pit fiend Goap is not mentioned in this book as far as I’m aware. Either he is just a servant of Bel, or maybe he has been transferred or destroyed?  We don’t have any details about him anywhere, so he may simply not be all that important.  About all we know is that he commands companies of erinyes, so seeing him with Bel rather than Tiamat would work fine.

Note also that Bel has no consort.  He was the consort of Zariel at one point (IIRC), but it doesn’t seem like he has one of his own yet.

Dagos of the Dark Eight – I’ll stick with him as the leader of Zariel’s armies prior to the Reckoning.  I could see him, Corin, and Pearza joining the ranks of the Hellish hierarchy just long enough to get into place for the Asmodeus-supported coup, then splitting off with the rest of the Eight when their old job was done and their new one begun.  What more would need to be said about Dagos here?



			
				Book of Vile Darkness said:
			
		

> Bel, a military commander, is always surrounded by other powerful and warlike devils. In particular, he has two cornugon fighters, Yeddikadir and Nalebranc, who strike fear even in devils that are supposedly more powerful.  Yeddikadir is secretly also in the service of Belial, but only to keep an eye on Bel, not to betray him… at least not yet.




These two might rate as “honorable mention” even though they are lesser sorts than pit fiends.  

oh, look, someone already did something with these guys...


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## Shemeska (Feb 9, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> So, probably, they either switched off between Tiamat and Bel, or swear fealty to both, or are primarily the servants of one, but assist the other.  You know though, given the fact that both dukes command companies of abishai, it does make sense that they would be working more with Tiamat.




It may just be me, but I would stray from taking some of the 1e material at face value so far as it concerned Tiamat and Baatezu in service to her. That material was predicated upon Tiamat being one of the Lords of the 9, which subsequent material retconned to oblivion. Given that she never held power within the diabolic heirarchy, except perhaps over some of the outcast devils on Avernus, it might be wise to either likewise retcon the alleigences of the devils listed under her in the 1e material, or rework them to mesh with the later lore. Ie. you could have them serving her on the authority of Bel or one of the members of the Dark 8; loaned to her as part of an agreement perhaps related to her watchdog status over the portal to Dis, etc.

I personally would avoid giving her much overt sway over any Baatezu, or make it clear that she was playing a balancing act with attempts to influence nobles in Bel's court yet remain in the clear, so to speak, of annoying the actual Lord of Avernus to the point of tempting the Baatezu to repeat what they did to Maglubiyet, etc. She has a definate place on Avernus and a rich history there, but I'd make clear the difference between her role and that of the actual diabolic heirarchy, which she has no official place within. This necessitates at least some reworking of the earliest material insofar as her influence is concerned.




> Note also that Bel has no consort.  He was the consort of Zariel at one point (IIRC), but it doesn’t seem like he has one of his own yet.




He still has Zariel. So technically... yeah... IYKWIMAITYD. Life cannot be pleasant for her.


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## BOZ (Feb 9, 2007)

no, it probably isn't.  

i can't totally write Tiamat out of the picture for having archdukes working for her, since FC2 had to go and explicitly state that Amduscias and Malphas serve her.  but yeah, we can come up with another solution that modifies that situation somewhat.


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## Shemeska (Feb 9, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i can't totally write Tiamat out of the picture for having archdukes working for her, since FC2 had to go and explicitly state that Amduscias and Malphas serve her.  but yeah, we can come up with another solution that modifies that situation somewhat.




Of course. 

It's finding a way to reconcile the _why_ of their servitude to her given how her role has radically changed since the first conception way back when. But, that said, seeming contradictions can oftentimes lead to the most interesting and complex ideas.


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## Ripzerai (Feb 9, 2007)

Here's an obscure one: the Devil Prince Glornoth the Maleficent, from _Weapons of Legacy_, page 65. I haven't the slightest idea how he might fit into the hierarchy.

Oh, and, from the same book, the fallen solar Merikel, "now a powerful lord in the Nine Hells." [page 117]


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## Ripzerai (Feb 9, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> d'oh!  yeah, they sure were mentioned in that article.  and yeah, i've been wondering that myself - if he was trying to weed people out of his court, why is everyone still there?
> 
> here's my idea.  you know how the pit fiends in the Dark Eight get killed and replaced, their identities changed to match their predeccessor?  well, we can apply that same system here...




The baatezu do that with the Dark Eight because they're trying to create the illusion of continuity and permanence in that august institution. 

Mephistopheles, though, wants to do the opposite. He killed "Molikroth's" co-conspirators in order to make an example of those who would defy him. He would therefore want to advertise the discontinuity, letting it be known far and wide what happens to traitors. It seems like giving the replacements the same names as their disgraced predecessors as if nothing had happened would go against everything he's trying to do.


----------



## Shade (Feb 9, 2007)

I'm not sure if this is relevant, but in Dragon #337, we name-dropped the pit fiend Asgeroth, who is now Imix's greatest servant and general tasked with destroying Zaaman Rul.  He's got ties to the fallen archdevil Moloch in Hell's political maneuvering, at least.


----------



## RainOfSteel (Feb 9, 2007)

Ripzerai said:
			
		

> Though with the horrible set-up in Fiendish Codex II, that means he serves Bel. I really wish that book hadn't been published. For all its good qualities, some of it was just execrable.



The more variance in the extant published material, the less any uppity player can try and make assertions about what is really in hell, either planar geography or diabolic hierarchy while playing in my game.


----------



## RainOfSteel (Feb 9, 2007)

Celebrim said:
			
		

> The most reasonable explanation is that everything which has ever been written about the heirarchy of the nine hells is wrong, and dangerously so.



I agree.  Some scraps of information may well be correct.  But most of them are going to be wrong.

Tiamat boasts to some adventurers that she is the archduke(duchess) of Avernus, and this gets reported on the Prime Material.

Bel appears to lead the Dark Eight from a central fortress, and so other deduce that he is the archduke of Avernus.

The Dark Eight appear to lead vast hordes of devils, and so others have reported them as the rulers of the Nine Hells and either never knew about or dismissed the archdevils.

Asmodeus appears to rule Nessus, and further appears to make the archdevils dance to his whim, and so he is reported as the ruler of the Nine Hells.

Do you really think you know what is written on the Pact Primeval?

Truly obscure legend refers to Asmodeus' fall into the original unshaped Baator.  However, other legends refer to the fact that Asmodeus was a functionary in the Nine Hells until he managed to overthrow _his superiors_, a passtime that is continually reported to be a favorite activity of the entire diabolic population.

Good luck figuring out the truth.




			
				Celebrim said:
			
		

> So, here we are in the very embodiment of lawful evilness, and titles have no fixed meaning, no traditional role, no force of law, but they are merely the whim of the ruler that bestows them.  Since when does any lawful - evil or otherwise - rule by mere whim, or since when do thier subjects obey merely out of fear alone [...]



The USSR under Stalin.




			
				Celebrim said:
			
		

> [...] and since when does any lawful society not weigh its positions, entitlements, rights, duties, and responcibilities to a nicety.



I wouldn't accuse devils of worrying about niceties.

Some laws devils might be subject to without a choice, but such laws will be enforced by one form of might or another.

Laws that are not continually enforced with be circumvented whenever possible and/or convenient for a devil in question.

Lawful Evil is the very defintion of that which will attempt to circumvent the law and otherwise make a mockery of it for others while exploiting it for itself, even if it invented that law.




			
				Celebrim said:
			
		

> Either you have enfuedated someone or who haven't, and if you haven't you can't expect thier loyalty.



You can't expect diabolic loyalty that much, anyway.  Every devil wants to advance themselves, pure and simple.  Overthrowing one's superior is a normal course of events.  Doing so and getting away with it may be something else entirely, but they all want to do it.  Asmodeus is the target of every archdevil and most the dukes (the remaining dukes have sub-goals of overthrowing their immediate archdevil first).


----------



## RainOfSteel (Feb 9, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> in the meantime, i'm starting another thread, hoping to straighten a few things first to make it more easier to make more sense of this stuff.






			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> OK.    I think I learned everything from the other thread that I needed to learn for this little project.



What other topic?  Link?


----------



## RainOfSteel (Feb 9, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> To summarize the history of the Lords of the Nine (rather than the history of Baator, per se): [...]



That's an excellent historical overview of the diabolic powers.

Thank you!

(One new set of information for the PCs to wonder about.)


----------



## RainOfSteel (Feb 9, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> no, it probably isn't.
> 
> i can't totally write Tiamat out of the picture for having archdukes working for her, since FC2 had to go and explicitly state that Amduscias and Malphas serve her.  but yeah, we can come up with another solution that modifies that situation somewhat.



It could be that Asmodeus has given her the title of Ruler of the First and some dukes as servants to keep her happy, while Bel (and predecessors) has the actual archdevil powers and does the slogging work on the Blood War.  If so, it's no wonder there would be conflicting stories.


----------



## BOZ (Feb 9, 2007)

Ripzerai said:
			
		

> The baatezu do that with the Dark Eight because they're trying to create the illusion of continuity and permanence in that august institution.
> 
> Mephistopheles, though, wants to do the opposite. He killed "Molikroth's" co-conspirators in order to make an example of those who would defy him. He would therefore want to advertise the discontinuity, letting it be known far and wide what happens to traitors. It seems like giving the replacements the same names as their disgraced predecessors as if nothing had happened would go against everything he's trying to do.




good point.  what to do about that, then?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I'm not sure if this is relevant, but in Dragon #337, we name-dropped the pit fiend Asgeroth, who is now Imix's greatest servant and general tasked with destroying Zaaman Rul.  He's got ties to the fallen archdevil Moloch in Hell's political maneuvering, at least.




i'd say it's relevant - to Moloch at least.    he's probably even more pissed that Glasya took over his old layer, since he undoubtedly wanted that spot back.  


back to Amduscias, Malphas, and Goap...

i would say that they all serve Bel in some capacity.  Am & Mal at the very least command Tiamat's armies of abishai.  here, i think, is the simple solution:  they serve the needs of Avernus, more than the lords who are there.  it's likely enough that they even worked fo Zariel at some point. i'd say Asmodeus placed them there primarly to keep the Outcast Dukes in line, and prevent invasions into Avernus, and they follow the orders of Bel and Tiamat as needed to perform that task.


----------



## Ripzerai (Feb 9, 2007)

Tiamat guards the portal to Dis. As such, she has been given some diabolic servants (including two dukes) to aid her in this task. I don't see any problem with that, or any need for a more elaborate explanation.


----------



## BOZ (Feb 9, 2007)

would they also work for Bel, or does he just get by without dukes?


----------



## RainOfSteel (Feb 9, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> would they also work for Bel, or does he just get by without dukes?



Well, the Dark Eight might be viewed as dukes.  They are no ordinary pit fiends, that is for certain.


----------



## BOZ (Feb 10, 2007)

OK, if that is settled, then let’s move on to the “rabble of devilkin”.

I’ll start taking a look into them.  I’ll deal with Moloch, Amon, and Herodias under the layers they formerly lived, and for that matter any “longer-termed” outcasts for whom we know where they originated: Armaros (Nessus), Dagon/Jaqon (Nessus), Kochibel (Malbolge), and Rumjal (Stygia).  Must be interesting having Rumjal there, with Amon and Herodias there now too!

Might as well deal with those whose origins are still a mystery under Avernus, since we don’t know anything more about where they came from.: Nergal, Bist, Caim, Azazel/Hazzael, Cahor, Duskur, Malarea, and Nisroch (unless we can determine where they came from, and if not that’s hardly a big deal).


----------



## Ripzerai (Feb 10, 2007)

My guess is that Nergal is from Malbolge, judging from his background in _Elminster in Hell_.

I'd also speculate that Malarea was once Levistus' consort, if only because he otherwise doesn't have a named one.

Nisroch is probably from Maladomini, given that he tried to assassinate Abigor.

I'm not sure if Bist is even a baatezu; she might just be an advanced bezekira.

Duskur is so independent it's hard to imagine her ever serving anyone. Someone must have given her the form she presently wears, but she probably didn't even stick around to say thank you before setting off on her own in Avernus.


----------



## BOZ (Feb 10, 2007)

Ripzerai said:
			
		

> My guess is that Nergal is from Malbolge, judging from his background in _Elminster in Hell_.
> 
> I'd also speculate that Malarea was once Levistus' consort, if only because he otherwise doesn't have a named one.
> 
> ...




i think i can agree with all of those items, but i'd rather leave them as speculations than concrete facts.   it's nice to throw things out there which may or may not be true and let people decide for themselves.

i was thinking the same thing about Nisroch, but the article was not too specific about him.  it's easy enough to say that some of these lords have been stuck on Avernus for so long that their origins have become a big mystery.


----------



## BOZ (Feb 11, 2007)

OK, about the only thing I would want to do with the outcasts is to give at least some of them goals.  For one thing, while Glasya’s ascension has shaken and scared the other current Lords of the Nine, all other devils in the hierarchy as well as the outcasts, have seen that as hope for opportunity for advancement.  Particularly, wild speculation into Levistus’ future leads many devils to want to be his replacement.

Nergal might be secretly dealing with another devil of Glasya’s court to try to undermine her new power structure and worm his way back in there. Cahor’s chaotic leanings might lead to some double-dealing with the demons in the Blood War.  Duskur might wish to take advantage of the respect of the dukes of Avernus to gain some kind of arrangement with them.  Malarea might seek to become Bel’s consort, if she can escape his forces long enough to gain an audience with him.


----------



## BOZ (Feb 12, 2007)

OK, moving on then…

DIS


			
				Dragon #75 said:
			
		

> Between the city and the hills lie the vast estates held in fief by Dispater’s vassals. The duke Bitru is the strongest of these vassals; he can muster 70 companies of erinyes. Merodach (described below), commanding 21 companies of barbed devils, and the pit fiend Furcas, with 12 companies of bearded devils, also boast sizable holdings. Mephits, achaierai, and rakshasas wander these holdings, and stench kows and spined devils are the working backbone of them. Rakshasas sometimes achieve positions of responsibility in a duke’s household or retinue, but are always watched closely, for they are too self-willed and ambitious to be trusted servants.
> 
> In the city of Dis itself - and almost always within Dispater’s palace - can be found Lilis, Dispater’s consort; his prime minister, the pit fiend Baalzephon, who orders and administers Dispater’s vassals and armies; and Biffant, the provost, who runs and commands the staff of the palace itself. Titivilus, Dispater’s nuncio, can be found here, as can the pit fiend Bel, who commands the “Iron Guard” (3 companies of malebranche), and Arioch, Dispater’s avenger, who punishes all those who have wronged or hindered the will and plans of Dispater.




We have established that Dispater has been in charge of his layer for a long time, probably since Asmodeus first established the layers of Baator.  He was also the Lord most “unscathed” by the Reckoning, in that he did not even change his name or appearance.  This stability seems to be an important character trait of his, and I imagine that his court has probably also been the most stable throughout the years, with some of his current court members having been with him since the beginning of his reign.

The pit fiends Furcas, Baalzephon and Bel are no longer with him, of course, having moved on to bigger and better things.  I wonder who now handles the duties of ordering and administering his vassals and armies, and commanding his Iron Guard of cornugon bodyguards?  Probably someone(s) found below…



			
				Monster Manual II said:
			
		

> Titivilus is notorious for his ability to twist words, to use words to confuse, and to confuse those using words. Fittingly, he is the messenger for Dispater. He is not large nor particularly strong, but he is most clever. It is said that Titivilus possesses a silver sword of wounding … Once per day Titivilus can use a symbol of discord or sleep (19 levels or hit dice or 99 hit points affected. A saving throw indicates only nodding and dozing with a 1 in 20 chance per round of awakening fully). He causes fear by touch only…
> Titivilus appears very similar to a satyr, but he is actually more human looking, save for his bat-like wings. His skin is pale, but his cheeks are slightly ruddy.






			
				Dragon #75 said:
			
		

> Bitru serves Dispater and leads 70 companies of erinyes in warfare. These devils are raised from the vast estates held in fief. Bitru employs a huge (+3 two-handed) sword in combat…
> He causes fear by pointing at any creature within a 60’ distance, saving throw vs. spell applicable…
> Description: Bitru is very muscular. His skin is shining crimson, and his horns, hooves, and wings are lustrous black. Bitru’s visage is typically diabolical.






			
				Dragon #75 said:
			
		

> Lilis, consort of Dispater, is one of the older and weaker female devils, but her careful diplomacy and strategies and her attention to events in the hells and elsewhere (her network of spies is said to be second only to that of Asmodeus) has kept her own position in the infernal regions as secure as that of any of the nobility of the hells. Lilis and Biffant (q.v.), Dispater’s provost, are as trusting and as close as two devils ever become — but both are (thus far) unswervingly loyal to Dispater, making his control of Dis the envy of other archdevils…
> Once per day Lilis can cause insanity by touch. She can cause fear by pointing at a victim (one victim per round; saving throw vs. spell applicable)…
> Lilis has orange-red skin, copper-colored hair and green eyes; she looks like a short, plump, well-preserved human female of middle age, except for the hue of her skin, her tiny orange-red horns, long red nails, forked tail, wings, and delicate cloven black hooves.
> 
> ...






			
				Faces of Evil: The Fiends said:
			
		

> His numerous servants include erinyes and several dukes. The most notable of these is Titivilus, Dispater's messenger and herald.




That doesn’t offer much help, beyond confirming that Titivilus was still working for him…



			
				 Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells said:
			
		

> Several unique devils, including Lilis (Dispater’s consort), Arioch the Iron Avenger, Biffant (Provost of the Iron City), and Titivilus (Nuncio of Dispater), are members of Dispater’s court. The armies of Dis are commanded by pit fiends and a few unique devils, including Alocer, Bitru, and Merodach.




So it looks like his court has remained intact through to now, minus the “named” pit fiends.

Probably not a great deal more to say about Dispater’s court than that.  



			
				Book of Vile Darkness said:
			
		

> The chief of all his erinyes servants of Ustyhrin-ja, a hideously scarred disciple. She is fiercely loyal to Dispater and in recent weeks personally slew three erinyes under her that she discovered were actually spies for Baalzebul. This event has made her even more paranoid and distrusting of all except her master.
> The Iron Tower has a new guardian as well: Talos. Contrary to what some people now say, Dispater did not create Talos. The legendary iron golem is very old, and how it came to serve Dispater is a bit of a mystery.




I know that “Talos the Triple Iron Golem” rings a bell for me, but I forget where he appeared before the BoVD.


----------



## Voadam (Feb 12, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> I know that “Talos the Triple Iron Golem” rings a bell for me, but I forget where he appeared before the BoVD.




Same, that sounds like a 1e DMG reference from one of the artefacts, but I don't have it in front of me.


----------



## Shemeska (Feb 12, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> I know that “Talos the Triple Iron Golem” rings a bell for me, but I forget where he appeared before the BoVD.




The 3e DMG had "being crushed beneath the heel of Talos the Triple Iron Golem" as a potential method of destroying an artifact.

And way before that there was the Talos "golem" of Greek Mythology. Talos was the bronze automaton given by Zeus to Europa. There are lots of variations on the legend, but most familiar to many folks is the giant stop-motion bronze dude in the 1963 'Jason and the Argonauts' movie.


----------



## Ripzerai (Feb 12, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> The pit fiends Furcas, Baalzephon and Bel are no longer with him, of course, having moved on to bigger and better things.  I wonder who now handles the duties of ordering and administering his vassals and armies, and commanding his Iron Guard of cornugon bodyguards?




Don't forget Zaggutch, Dispater's lieutenant from _Fires of Dis_. Another servant of Dis, the pit fiend Kri'ik, also appears prominently in that adventure. Neither of them seem to be the prime minister, so presumedly they replace Furcas and Bel.

Glornoth and Merikel, from _Weapons of Legacy_, need to be plugged into the baatezu hierarchy somewhere. There's only one slot open in Phlegethos (because Gazra replaces Zaebos), and Morsch can be presumed to replace Zimimar in Minauros (although Morsch commands all of Mammon's armies, and Zimimar was, before being given that role just prior to the Reckoning, formally only the head of the palace guard, so there may be another in charge of the guard there - why not use Zbavra the Witch-Queen, from the _Book of Vile Darkness_, since she dwells in Mammon's court?).

So perhaps Glornoth the Maleficent is Dispater's new prime minister, and the fallen solar Merikel now shepherds four companies of cornugons for Belial and Fierna (since Belial is much more friendly toward fallen celestials than Dispater is).


----------



## Ripzerai (Feb 12, 2007)

I'm not sure about Alocer, though. If Ustyhrin-ja is the chief of _all_ of Dispater's erinyes servants (as the _Book of Vile Darkness_ claims), then why would Alocer be leading 36 companies of the female devils in battle? Does Alocer work for Ustyhrin-ja?

It's possible there's a distinction between the erinyes of the armies (which Alocer commands) and the erinyes of the city (which Ustyhrin-ja commands). Or perhaps Alocer should be given new troops.


----------



## BOZ (Feb 13, 2007)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> The 3e DMG had "being crushed beneath the heel of Talos the Triple Iron Golem" as a potential method of destroying an artifact.




indeed, you are correct!    Voadam is also correct, however, as a suggested potential method of destroyed an artifact in the 1E DMG p 164 is to "Cause it to be broken against/by or crush by (1) Talos, a triple iron golem".  (oddly enough, another method was to "cause it to be seared by the odious flames of Geryon's destroyed soul"!!)  Talos does not appear to be referenced in the 2E DMG or Book of Artifacts.



			
				Ripzerai said:
			
		

> Don't forget Zaggutch, Dispater's lieutenant from _Fires of Dis_. Another servant of Dis, the pit fiend Kri'ik, also appears prominently in that adventure. Neither of them seem to be the prime minister, so presumedly they replace Furcas and Bel.
> 
> Glornoth and Merikel, from _Weapons of Legacy_, need to be plugged into the baatezu hierarchy somewhere. There's only one slot open in Phlegethos (because Gazra replaces Zaebos), and Morsch can be presumed to replace Zimimar in Minauros (although Morsch commands all of Mammon's armies, and Zimimar was, before being given that role just prior to the Reckoning, formally only the head of the palace guard, so there may be another in charge of the guard there - why not use Zbavra the Witch-Queen, from the _Book of Vile Darkness_, since she dwells in Mammon's court?).
> 
> So perhaps Glornoth the Maleficent is Dispater's new prime minister, and the fallen solar Merikel now shepherds four companies of cornugons for Belial and Fierna (since Belial is much more friendly toward fallen celestials than Dispater is).




i like your suggestions for replacements for Furcas and Bel.  i found Merikel in WoL (a compeling character, so i will use him), but did not know where to look for Glornoth (if he fits the bill though, might as well make him the prime minister).  Zbavra sounds like a perfectly fine fit as replacement as head of the palace guard.



			
				Ripzerai said:
			
		

> I'm not sure about Alocer, though. If Ustyhrin-ja is the chief of _all_ of Dispater's erinyes servants (as the _Book of Vile Darkness_ claims), then why would Alocer be leading 36 companies of the female devils in battle? Does Alocer work for Ustyhrin-ja?
> 
> It's possible there's a distinction between the erinyes of the armies (which Alocer commands) and the erinyes of the city (which Ustyhrin-ja commands). Or perhaps Alocer should be given new troops.




i would say that Alocer is totally independent of Ustyhrin-ja, and that she commands all erinyes who are not under detachment to other lords.  make sense?


----------



## Ripzerai (Feb 13, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> but did not know where to look for Glornoth (if he fits the bill though, might as well make him the prime minister).




Page 65. There's very little information on him, however. He was one of those angry at Rashid ben Daoud when he defaulted on his debts.



> i would say that Alocer is totally independent of Ustyhrin-ja, and that she commands all erinyes who are not under detachment to other lords.  make sense?




Sounds fine.


----------



## BOZ (Feb 13, 2007)

OK, i'll check out Glornoth.  i really should also have a look at Fires of Dis (it's been awhile) and see what those other two are about, but i trust you on that if i don't manage to remember to look.


----------



## BOZ (Feb 13, 2007)

Yep, Glornoth’s really just a name.  Well, a blank slate is enough to work with, so in he goes!

Kri’ik appears on pages 5, 29-30, 35-36, and 54-55 of Fires of Dis (and is mentioned several times on other pages), and although it seems that Dispater has had enough of him, that may have just been part of his plan and he could have “forgiven” and possibly even promoted him.  As the pit fiend Zaggutch (a lieutenant of Dispater) is a major player in the module I have yet to read up on him entirely (appearing on p52 and on).  

MINAUROS


			
				Dragon #75 said:
			
		

> Toward the center of the plane, Minauros rises into a vast tortured volcanic badlands of ash-hills and slime-filled rifts. The palace of Mammon sits in a marshy bowl at the heart of these volcanic lands, where many rifts meet. It is here where Mammon’s seneschal, Focalor, stands guard over Glasya (Mammon’s consort), Mammon’s palace, and Mammon’s affairs when his master is out hunting across the badlands. The pit fiend Zimimar commands the “palace guard” of 6 companies of bone devils, and will either be found at the palace or hurrying elsewhere to protect Mammon or enforce his will.
> The vassal dukes of Mammon rule stretches of volcanic ridges and ash-choked, lifeless woods far from the central palace, between the uplands and the marshes where prisoners lie in dolor. Chief among these vassal dukes is Bael, who can gather 66 companies of barbed devils (and actively plots to supplant Focalor, and ultimately Mammon himself). The duke Caarcrinolaas commands 36 companies of barbed devils, and although he is aware of Bael’s ambitions, neither supports nor betrays them. The duke Melchon, who can muster only 18 companies of erinyes, chooses to be eagerly and actively loyal to Mammon - which has earned him the deep suspicion of the seneschal Focalor.




The note under Focalor’s entry below does seem to confirm your suspicion that Nergal was once part of Mammon’s court.  Wonder what his role was?



			
				Monster Manual II said:
			
		

> Bael is vassal to Mammon, commanding 66 companies of barbed devils. In battle array Bael wears armor of bronze fashioned in the ancient style and uses a morning star +2 with a long bronze handle which telescopes magically from 4-8 feet in length as Bael desires… He radiates fear within a 20-foot radius when he so desires…
> Bael is a well-formed humanoid with golden skin. His head is rather long and has small, forward curling bull's horns. His features are rather bovine with large, round eyes, a long and broad nose, and protruding ears.






			
				Dragon #75 said:
			
		

> Focalor is seneschal (an agent, or bailiff) to Mammon, and wields much of the real power in Minauros, for his master is somewhat neglectful of security and diplomacy. The thin, often silent Focalor is careful in word and deed, and a master strategist. He is respectful, too, and takes no risks with the safety of Glasya (Mammon‘s consort) and that of the palace itself. Most of the other archdevils (and the outcast Nergal; see Avernus section) believe that Mammon would be easy prey were it not for the strength of his few dukes, and for the wise care of Focalor. Focalor’s loyalty seems unshakeable; most of the archdevils have in the past tested it, and they continue to do so…
> Focalor causes fear by his breath, a cone of foul-smelling vapor 1” in range, spreading from a mouth-sized base to a 3’-wide spray. He can direct this at any target(s) in the area of effect, one exhalation per round (save vs. spell at -1 to avoid)…
> Description: Focalor appears human - a thin, bearded, and middle-aged statesman or sage with power and heavy concerns - until he unfurls his feathered wings from his flowing robes or reveals his brown cloven hooves. Focalor wears an iron gauntlet on his right hand, as his badge of office, and with this gauntlet he can strike for 1-6 damage. He is normally armed with a staff, but will seize any weapons in battle. His skin is a pale pink-green, and if his armpits and flanks are revealed, tiny scales will be seen.
> When summoned to the Prime Material Plane, Focalor will seize any chance to swim (for this he enjoys), and revels in the use of two powers of his that are ineffective in the hells: fish command (as in the trident of fish command, DMG p. 155; all fish save at +1), and call storms (usable only when at sea), basically a combination of call lightning and control winds. The call storms ability, when employed, evokes lightning discharges from any clouds present, bringing also rain and strong winds in the direction and intensity Focalor wills, the whole effect lasting 4 turns. If no clouds are present, this power attracts them (which may take several hours, or a day or more). When they arrive, Focalor (if still present) can use the call storms ability again, as described above, to bring the storm out of the “summoned” clouds.
> ...






			
				Faces of Evil: the Fiends said:
			
		

> The Viscount is known to have had the pit fiend Zimimar in his service - that is, until Cantrum made Zimimar a member of the Dark Eight. Minauros's consort is the duchess Glasya, and the current commander of his armies is Duke Morsch.






			
				Book of Vile Darkness said:
			
		

> Zbavra began as a cleric of Hextor, and eventually came to the Nine Hells to serve Hextor directly. However, she got caught up in the politics of hell and soon found that her lust for power and influence got her far in the hierarchy. In fact, she soon found herself one of the most influential mortals in all of hell. Now she has thrown in with Mammon, hoping that an allegiance with an archdevil will get her even farther. She lives in Minauros and attends Mammon’s court regularly.




We determined above that Zbavra now commands the palace guard in place of Zimimar.



			
				 Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells said:
			
		

> Mammon is served by a host of dukes, each of whom constantly tries to curry favor at the expense of his rivals. Mammon’s generals include the unique devils Bael, Caarcrinolaas, and Melchon.  Focalur, also a unique devil, serves as Mammon's ever-loyal seneschal, and the little-known Glwa is Mammon's new consort.




We dealt with the story of his “new” consort Glwa already, and not much would need to be said about Glasya other than that she is the former consort.  I wonder if, as a “less valuable” consort than Glasya, does Focalor guard Glwa as faithfully?

Rip, you said above that the hamatula Pollus Windscreamer, master of Jangling Hiter serves in Mammon’s hierarchy as well (per Planes of Law), but I don’t know where to find that info.


----------



## Ripzerai (Feb 13, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Rip, you said above that the hamatula Pollus Windscreamer, master of Jangling Hiter serves in Mammon’s hierarchy as well (per Planes of Law), but I don’t know where to find that info.




Pollus Windscreamer is mentioned in the Baator booklet, page 18. I listed him among Mammon's hierarchy simply because he has an important job in Minauros. 

He's probably dead at this point, since _Tyrants of the Nine Hells_ replaced him with a pit fiend. 

I had suggested that Nergal was part of Beherit's court, actually (based on his background in _Elminster in Hell_), although it seems that he'd be just as satisfied with rulership over Minauros as he would have been with Malbolge.


----------



## BOZ (Feb 13, 2007)

hmm... that you did!  I probably goofed that because there are so many layers that start with "M".    still, i like this secondary explanation that Nergel covets Mammon's spot, which works well with Focalor's flavor text.  maybe that even works into his story about how he got kicked out of Beherit's court (unless he just got exiled when Beherit was destroyed).

Pollus is probably destroyed, exiled, or transferred... better to just leave him alone then.


----------



## BOZ (Feb 13, 2007)

PHLEGETHOS


			
				Dragon #75 said:
			
		

> Belial rules from the huge, hollowed-out shell of a dead volcano. His stronghold is known as Abriymoch, “The Mount of Leaping Flames.” The archdevil is attended by his consort Naome, his legate Chamo, and a few malebranche (notable among them the great scarred specimen known as “Night Fang”) under the command of the pit fiend Zapan.
> Abriymoch consists of several tiers of chambers, opening into the central shaft like balconies, and connected to each other by stairs, shafts, and a great spiral path that winds about the central gulf or shaft of the dead volcano. Some chambers stretch through the sloping walls of the volcano and have windows or doors opening out onto the volcano’s outside flanks. The lips of the volcanic crater are crowned by Abriymoch’s basalt towers. A few erinyes under the command of the pit fiend Zaebos, Belial’s lieutenant, serve as messengers within Abriymoch and between it and vassal dukes or outlying patrols. These erinyes are often bullied and are quite miserable, and as usual have their eyes always on bettering their own positions in the hells. Chamo suspects that the erinyes have served as the spies of Asmodeus, Baalzebul, and perhaps other archdevils in the past, but he has not yet been able to prove anything.
> Abriymoch is staffed by spined and bearded devils, and has a kennel of hell hounds that can be used by Zapan’s forces to help defend and guard the palace.
> The vast, smoking plains surrounding the volcanic heart of Phlegethos are the domain of Belial’s vassals: Balan, who commands 40 companies of bearded devils; Bathym, who can muster 30 companies of barbed devils; and Gaziel, who leads 11 companies of bone devils. These vassals are usually dealt with and commanded by Zaebos, speaking for his master Belial, who, assisted by Chamo, is usually occupied with matters of diplomacy and intrigue within the Nine Hells.




Most of this translates over fairly well into 3.5, except for the mix-up with the pit fiends, and the split of allegiances (the same lords are still around though).



			
				Dragon #75 said:
			
		

> Naome is consort to Belial, the ruler of Phlegethos. She spends much of her time in Abriymoch, but is highly regarded in the hells for her settling of disputes when others have failed, and her shrewd bargaining ability. In battle she uses her spells and a long scimitar; although she rarely engages in combat, it is said she enjoys a good fight…
> Her gaze can, if she so wills, cause fear (save vs. spell to avoid)…
> Description: Naome is a short, burly, middle-aged female devil, with long brown hair and cold, pale blue-green eyes. She has a tinkling laugh and a surprisingly light, easy sense of humor. Quick-witted and glib-tongued, she rarely makes enemies (although she bears no love for Glasya, the consort of Mammon, or Lilith, the consort of Moloch), and is most friendly with Baftis, the consort of Baalzebul. When clad in flowing robes (she prefers green or claret-colored silken garments), only her tiny horns, gray hooves, and crimson forked tail betray her diabolic nature. Her face, shoulders, and hands have a pale, human-like complexion, but the rest of her body is deep crimson in color. Her hands have long red nails.
> 
> ...






			
				Faces of Evil: the Fiends said:
			
		

> Two of his (her?) lieutentants - Zaebos and Zapan - went on to become members of the Dark Eight. The fiend Naome (also of intermediate gender) stands by the lord as consort, and the duke Chamo stands with them. Chant is Chamo's looking to take over, but hey - if I can find out this information, it sure as Sigil means the lord can, too.




Didn’t I read somewhere that Naome had been killed?  Did Belial take on a new consort (besides Fierna, heh)?



			
				Book of Vile Darkness said:
			
		

> Gazra is Fierna’s constant companion and consort. While she luxuriates in magma-filled pools, he goes about many of the mundane affairs of state that she ignores. Levistus – through his servants – has attempted to convert Gazra to his camp on many occasions. Eventually, the pit fiend might indeed succumb to the temptations offered by Levistus. For now, he is loyal to Fierna.  Should she ever turn her affections from him, however, things could change. Gazra is jealous and hateful toward Belial, but he keeps those feelings hidden.






			
				 Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells said:
			
		

> Fierna is nominally served by several dukes, including the unique devils Balan, Bathym, and Gaziel, plus the pit fiend Gazra.  Balan and Gaziel are still loyal to Belial, but Bathym and Zapan have cast their lot with Fierna.  The loyalties of Chamo (Legate of Abriymoch) and his deputy Zaebos remain unknown.




Now that’s confusing – Zapan and Zaebos left to join the Dark Eight didn’t they?    (so far that book had been good about keeping the Dark Eight out of the Lords’ courts!)  you said above that Gazra now does Zaebos’s old job, in addition to the other things he’s known for.  We agreed that Merikel from Weapons of Legacy would take over Zapan’s cornugons.


----------



## Ripzerai (Feb 14, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Didn’t I read somewhere that Naome had been killed?




That's from FC2, though I can't give a page number.



> Did Belial take on a new consort (besides Fierna, heh)?




Just Fierana, I think.


----------



## BOZ (Feb 14, 2007)

heh...

yes, FC2 does say in Phlegethos' intro that Naome is dead (now that i've looked it up), but i think i've seen it elsewhere previously.  for the life of me, i can't remember where.  oh well, do we have any theories on what actually happened to her?

would it seem best to just count the Zapan/Zaebos thing in FC2 as a mistake and move on from there?  although, oddly enough, i noted on p36 that Pearza commands Fierna's armies?  *shrugs*


----------



## Ripzerai (Feb 14, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> yes, FC2 does say in Phlegethos' intro that Naome is dead (now that i've looked it up), but i think i've seen it elsewhere previously.




She was alive in _Faces of Evil_, and ignored in _Guide to Hell_ and _Book of Vile Darkness_.



> would it seem best to just count the Zapan/Zaebos thing in FC2 as a mistake and move on from there?  although, oddly enough, i noted on p36 that Pearza commands Fierna's armies?  *shrugs*




_Guide to Hell_ made Gazra the commander of the army of Phlegethos (page 42). 

It seems very difficult to make any sense of _Fiendish Codex II_'s presentation of the Dark Eight. I'd rather it was ignored, but it's your call.


----------



## BOZ (Feb 14, 2007)

yeah, i concur.  let's just pretend it never happened.  

Naome's death must be a mystery then.  and no one cares, even her husband and daughter.


----------



## BOZ (Feb 14, 2007)

Or better yet, they probably had something to do with it.  Or someone else did, but they don't care because... they have each other don't they?  

anyway...

Here’s a system that’s definitely gone through some changes.

STYGIA


			
				Dragon #75 said:
			
		

> One of the most powerful members of Geryon’s retinue is Herodias, whose title is magistrate. Herodias is responsible for the security of the realm and the training and ordering of Geryon’s legions of bone devils, and for assuming command of the defenses of Tantlin whenever Geryon is hunting.
> Geryon’s bailiff, Gorson, concentrates on external matters. It is Gorson who observes the day-to-day activities and internal politics of the other planes of the Nine Hells, and who (unless Geryon steps in to do this directly) orders and coordinates the styx devils in their individual missions about the planes.
> Geryon is perhaps the most satisfied or contented of the archdevils, and the least interested in the endless political struggle among the devils for more power, although he never misses a chance to act to the detriment of his foe Moloch, ruler of the sixth plane, or his other neighbor, Belial. Herodias and Gorson safeguard his interests (under the watchful eye of Cozbi, Geryon’s consort), gaining much actual power while always acting in Geryon’s name, and allowing Geryon to continue his “hunts” by, if not increasing his force and influence, at least preventing their erosion…
> Geryon’s vassals are outwardly loyal, and are often called upon to protect their master’s interests. They include Amon, who commands 40 companies of bone devils; Agares, who commands 31 companies of bone devils; Machalas, who leads 11 companies of barbed devils; and the pit fiend Fecor, who leads 8 companies of malebranche.
> The fiefs of these dukes lie between Tantlin itself and the rockiest heights of the endless, frozen mountains, consisting of rising land and many long, twisting rocky canyons and hanging valleys. There are a few remote volcanic rifts in the mountains, commonly known as “steam trenches,” where the Malebranche dwell unless ordered elsewhere.




We also decided above that Baalzephon would have worked for Geryon before the Reckoning, as easy access to the Styx would help greatly in his future role as supply master.  Rumjal was once a lieutenant of Geryon, banished to Avernus 



			
				Monster Manual II said:
			
		

> Amon is a vassal of Geryon, mustering and commanding up to 40 companies of bone devils recruited from his fief He is large and strong, typically attacking with a huge +3 mace and delivering a vicious bite as well. He has a winter wolf of the largest size as a companion and guardian…
> Amon causes fear in any individuals he gazes upon, unless they make a saving throw vs. spells… On the Prime Material Plane, Amon can summon and control all wolves within 1 mile of him. Amon is wolf-headed but otherwise appears human. His torso is well-formed and muscled.






			
				Dragon #75 said:
			
		

> Cozbi is consort to Geryon, ruler of the fifth plane of the Nine Hells, and is perhaps the quietest and least forceful of the diabolic princesses - but she is no easy mark. Cozbi watches her master’s interests carefully at all times, for she knows well the hatred that both Moloch and Belial hold for Geryon, and she is aware of Geryon’s relative weakness among the archdevils. She mistrusts both Herodias and Gorson, and is said by some to be friendly with the outcast devil Nergal (see Avernus section). In battle, Cozbi throws poisoned knives (Insinuative Type D; DMG, p. 20), and fights with a +1 spear…
> She causes fear by speaking to an individual (save vs. spell to avoid)…
> Description: Cozbi appears as a beautiful, unnaturally tall woman with chalk-white skin and long (thigh-length) pale green hair. Her eyes are fiery green and her long nails are black. She wears belted robes and jewelry when in Tantlin, but when fighting or otherwise active strips her garments away, whereupon her diabolic nature is revealed. Her hooves are tiny and delicate, easily concealed by boots, and Cozbi customarily wraps her forked tail about her waist, or hangs it over one arm. Her skin is shaded pink to red on her belly, and red from the hips down, but her arms and upper torso are chalk-white. Her hair usually hides two tiny horns that form a crescent upon the crown of her head, and her canine teeth are slim, vampire-like fangs (1-2 points of biting damage, but in a serious fight Cozbi will rarely let an opponent get close enough to allow her to employ this bite).
> 
> ...






			
				Faces of Evil: The Fiends said:
			
		

> Levistus, Lord of the Fifth, has gained the services of the duke known as Amon the Wolf.  The lord relies on the Wolf's keen nose and insight to sniff out the schemes of his enemies across every swamp and ice floe of Stygia.




So, maybe Levistus had Amon’s services for awhile, but he was banished to Avernus anyway once Geryon was destroyed?



			
				Book of Vile Darkness said:
			
		

> Erridon Alaka is a gelugon sorcerer. He and Zanth, a half-fiend rogue, along with a hellcat named Trinity, serve as Levistus’s hands and voice beyond the solid ice he is trapped within. Through an arcane ritual, Erridon and Levistus are linked telepathically at all times. Erridon tells Zanth what Levistus wants, and they interact with others on the archdevil’s behalf.
> Zanth eats only the flesh of good-aligned children, a rare commodity in hell. Thus, his one weakness is the minor devils that capture and kill children for him to eat—they work for Mephistopheles and frequently influence his actions to subtly serve their master.




At least Levistus does have a few servants!



			
				Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells said:
			
		

> In the wake of Geryon’s humiliation, the dukes of Stygia were forced to battle for influence, just like any other devils. Some, such as Cozbi (Glasya's consort), Gorson (Geryon's baliff), and the pit fiend Fecor were destroyed. Others, such as Amon (a powerful general), and Herodias (Geryon’s magistrate), were driven into exile.  A few, including Agares and Machalas, found new positions as commanders in service to Levistus.




I imagine that Amon and Herodias, like Rumjal, would seek a return to the hierarchy of Hell in some capacity. Not sure how they would interact with each other though, if at all.  I could see Amon being independent, but I could see Herodias wanting to ally with someone to increase his chances of survival.  I could see Amon wanting to continue his feud with Agares, and seeking to destroy and replace him.  Asmodeus likes Rumjal, as do Tiamat and her dukes, so he’s not going to buy the farm any time soon.

Rip also suggested making the outcast Malarea a former consort of Levistus before Asmodeus froze him, seeking to become a consort of him or anyone who’ll have her.  Has Levistus noticed her yet?  Does he even care? No one knows.


----------



## BOZ (Feb 14, 2007)

Here’s another thing I wondered about Stygia.  Since we are establishing Malarea as a former consort of Levistus, I wonder who else worked for him?  A whole entirely different set of lords in place beside Geryon’s court, or maybe some of them had been there since Levistus was first in charge?  Maybe Geryon himself was a member of Levistus’ court.  Maybe some of Levistus’ court besides Malarea were banished or destroyed.  A lot of that should definitely remain mysterious though.


----------



## Ripzerai (Feb 14, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> So, maybe Levistus had Amon’s services for awhile, but he was banished to Avernus anyway once Geryon was destroyed?




I think Amon was trying to play both sides, openly working for Levistus but also assisting in Geryon's attempt to recover his throne in _A Paladin in Hell_. During the course of those events, Levistus' amnizu spies must have noticed what Amon was doing, so he was not welcomed back after Geryon's attempt failed.

_A Paladin in Hell_ treated Amon as if he were exclusively Geryon's servant, in contradiction of the vague, in-character notes in _Faces of Evil_. It's possible that Regnus Roy, the "human basher from Sigil" who wrote that part of _Faces of Evil_, was simply misinformed. But I like the "playing both sides" theory better.



> Rip also suggested making the outcast Malarea a former consort of Levistus before Asmodeus froze him, seeking to become a consort of him or anyone who’ll have her.  Has Levistus noticed her yet?  Does he even care? No one knows.




Being a consort seems to imply a level of intimacy that Levistus is not currently capable of. What's more, Levistus' rule is somewhat tenuous, as he can control his servants only through telepathic commands. Having an unimprisoned consort with a physical presence would threaten that control; she might be able to sway more of his nobles to her side. 

Finally, Levistus was out of all contact for many thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of years, and during that time Malarea tried to whore herself to anyone who would take her. Why should Levistus trust her anymore? If she has any allies now, she's probably closest to Nergal, who seems the most likely of the exiles to become a Lord of the Nine.

Levistus' current hierarchy might look like this:

*Levistus*

Agares: 31 companies osyluths
Erridon Alaka (gelugon): Magistrate
(unnamed pit fiend): 8 companies cornugons
Machalas: 11 companies hamatulas
Trinity (bezekira): Bailiff
Zanth (half-fiend): 40 companies bone devils

For Fecor's replacement, I suppose Greth (from the _Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix I_, page 29) would work. Perhaps he was promoted quickly as part of Levistus' rush to replenish his ranks after his purge of Geryon's loyalists.

On the subject of his previous administration, what if the nobles he exiled or killed upon his reascension were those who served him once before, but betrayed him to serve Geryon? So before Geryon's reign, his servants included Gorson, Herodias, Fecor, and perhaps Geryon himself (though Geryon might well have been a trusted servant of Asmodeus in Nessus instead). Amon, Agares, and Machalas all ascended during Geryon's term, and thus were blameless.


----------



## BOZ (Feb 15, 2007)

Ripzerai said:
			
		

> I think Amon was trying to play both sides, openly working for Levistus but also assisting in Geryon's attempt to recover his throne in _A Paladin in Hell_. During the course of those events, Levistus' amnizu spies must have noticed what Amon was doing, so he was not welcomed back after Geryon's attempt failed.
> 
> _A Paladin in Hell_ treated Amon as if he were exclusively Geryon's servant, in contradiction of the vague, in-character notes in _Faces of Evil_. It's possible that Regnus Roy, the "human basher from Sigil" who wrote that part of _Faces of Evil_, was simply misinformed. But I like the "playing both sides" theory better.




me too.  while it would be easy to dismiss odd references that don't seem to fit in properly, with Baator it seems wiser to keep it and come up with some convoluted explanation to make it fit.  that works much better with the devils' character.

Amon definitely strikes me as ambitious (probably one reason for his popularity), and i could see him supporting both Levistus and Geryon to see who wins out in the end.  that fits well.



			
				Ripzerai said:
			
		

> Being a consort seems to imply a level of intimacy that Levistus is not currently capable of. What's more, Levistus' rule is somewhat tenuous, as he can control his servants only through telepathic commands. Having an unimprisoned consort with a physical presence would threaten that control; she might be able to sway more of his nobles to her side.
> 
> Finally, Levistus was out of all contact for many thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of years, and during that time Malarea tried to whore herself to anyone who would take her. Why should Levistus trust her anymore? If she has any allies now, she's probably closest to Nergal, who seems the most likely of the exiles to become a Lord of the Nine.




good point.  she's trying to get his attention, and he's not having it.  and whoring herself out is right, as she'll basically hook up with anyone right now who'll give her a high position.  she seems desperate to me.



			
				Ripzerai said:
			
		

> Levistus' current hierarchy might look like this:
> 
> *Levistus*
> 
> ...




that sounds reasonable.  i remember noting him before, but i promptly forgot about Greth.  i appreciate the irony of advancing him quickly, since that's the story he's known for with a hamatula.  also, he first appeared in MC8 along with Bel, Gazra, and the concept of the Dark Eight, and since he was the last remaining "named" baatezu from MC8/PSMC1, might as well bring him along!



			
				Ripzerai said:
			
		

> On the subject of his previous administration, what if the nobles he exiled or killed upon his reascension were those who served him once before, but betrayed him to serve Geryon? So before Geryon's reign, his servants included Gorson, Herodias, Fecor, and perhaps Geryon himself (though Geryon might well have been a trusted servant of Asmodeus in Nessus instead). Amon, Agares, and Machalas all ascended during Geryon's term, and thus were blameless.




that explanation works just fine.  i could see Geryon in Asmodeus' court, but at the same time there've been so *many* devils in his court that i'd rather see Geryon more "home-grown" in Stygia.  he was very loyal to Asmodeus, probably sucking up a lot, and when Levistus had to go, he was Asmo's first choice.

what about Rumjal?  i could see him working in Levistus court and remaining when Geryon took over, or first coming on while Geryon was already in charge.  either way, it was his messing with Cozbi during Geryon's reign that got him kicked out.


----------



## BOZ (Feb 15, 2007)

moving on then!

MALBOLGE


			
				Dragon #76 said:
			
		

> The sixth plane of the Nine Hells is ruled by Baalzebul through his viceroy Moloch (Baalzebul’s own abode is not on this plane). Moloch is continually ordered about by his lord and watched by the tribune Bileth, for Baalzebul fears that to allow the Grand Duke to rest undisturbed here for long would enable him to somehow wrest control of Malbolge from the Lord of the Flies…
> Malbolge is continually patrolled by pairs of malebranche who report to their commander, the pit fiend Bethage; to the legate Tartach; or to Moloch himself (or to Baalzebul, if the Lord of the Flies is present). Intruders are always brought alive to the horned devils’ commander for torment and questioning (or the malebranche patrol themselves will suffer in the intruders’ place). Few intruders escape, and fewer still are allowed to live for any length of time, for Baalzebul jealously grasps and guards all power and knowledge that he can, seeking to keep it from other archdevils (particularly Mephistopheles and Asmodeus), so as to eventually gain the power to rule all of the hells.
> Moloch moves with his consort Lilith from fortress to fortress of the malebranche upon Baalzebul’s orders (usually brought by the herald Neabaz). Tartach is Moloch’s deputy and ambassador to the vassal dukes and to visitors, and Bileth is the tribune installed by Baalzebul as a watchdog upon Moloch and others who would take control of the plane. Baalzebul
> finds it a continual struggle to retain two planes under his own sway, in a diabolic society where all are ambitious and there are not enough planes to go around. All of the vassals and assistants to Moloch, including Lilith, are regarded as loyal to Baalzebul, although Tartach and Lilith (who feel largely powerless in the current regime) might support a strong bid to seize Malbolge by another arch-devil.
> The defensive forces of Malbolge consist of nine companies of malebranche under the command of the pit fiend Bethage, and sixteen companies of bone devils led by the pit fiend Herobaal.




Moloch has got to be the most pitiful soul among the outcast dukes, since he used to actually be one of the Lords of the Nine.  I can’t imagine that his every waking moment is not consumed with the idea of getting a spot as one of the Lords.  It was bad enough that the Hag Countess got his position through manipulating him, but now Glasya has usurped it when it should have been him doing the usurping!

As established earlier from Dragon #91, Beherit would have been lord of Malbolge before Moloch took over.  As with Stygia, I have to wonder what lords were in place before Moloch took over.  We did establish already that Kochibel and Nergal would have worked for Beherit at one point.  Kochibel was Beherit’s marshall and banished when he was destroyed, but we don’t know what role Nergal would have had before his banishment or when he was sent to Avernus.  The two lords are still rivals now, regardless.  I have to assume that any other members of Beherit’s court have been destroyed, since all of Moloch’s vassals were on loan from Baalzebul.  



			
				Dragon #76 said:
			
		

> Lilith is consort to Moloch, viceroy of the sixth plane of the Nine Hells. She is held in high regard by many witches on the Prime Material Plane, who hold (and keep secret from others) the rituals for summoning her thence. Lilith serves Baalzebul, but her loyalty is not what it used to be; she feels largely powerless in the current regime, and resents being moved here and there at Baalzebul’s behest. She often works with the legate Tartach, who is of like mind. Lilith is personally most attractive, and many devils will do her small favors as a result…
> She radiates fear at will in a 2” radius (save vs. spell at -2 to avoid)…
> Description: Lilith appears as a beautiful, curvaceous human female of giant stature, save that her eyes are glowing white (pupils and all), her skin is crimson, and she has hooves, a serpent’s tail, and small curving horns. She rarely wears garments, cloaking herself in darkness (see above) when summoned if she deems it necessary. She fights with any weapons available but prefers to strike with her tail, which does 2-12 constriction damage per round; it is long and strong enough to immobilize one M-sized target. She usually bears a slim scimitar or a barbed whip (two 10’ strands with metal barbs; these do 1-8 base damage each and can strike the same or adjacent targets; they can entangle weapons or limbs, but she rarely employs them thus, fearing damage to the weapon). Significantly, a deep lash welt is commonly known in the hells as “Lilith’s Mark.”
> 
> ...






			
				Faces of Evil: The Fiends said:
			
		

> It's well known that Malagard [the Hag Countess] and Bileth (her pit fiend tribune) travel regularly through the layer, making surprise visits to the bronze citadels to see how the structures hold up against the torrents of stone.




So Bileth at least remained with the Hag after Moloch was banished.  I doubt much that Lilith would have remained with her at all.  the pit fiends Bethage and Herobaal are never mentioned again after Dragon #76 to the best of my knowledge, so who knows what happened to them.  Bileth may have remained until the Hag was destroyed, then went back to Baalzebul at that point.  Tartach may have also stayed on with the Hag, waiting to see if an opportunity arose, or he may have gone back to Baalzebul and returned once Glasya took over.



			
				Book of Vile Darkness said:
			
		

> The Hag Countess lives in a stronghold within a gigantic boulder that rolls down the endless slopes of her layer of hell.  She keeps a coven of three night hags, all with maximum hit points, in her strange palace at all times, as well as a number of anises, green hags, and medusas.
> She has a stable full of nightmares. Her favorite, Bloodcurdle, is one  of great might and power.




Probably nothing here that we need to be concerned with.  These creatures were probably killed, driven off, or enslaved by Glasya.



			
				Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells said:
			
		

> Before the Reckoning, Malbolge’s dukes were all envoys from the court of Baalzebul, but these devils were all withdrawn after t he fall of Moloch. No unique devils acquired the rank of duke during Malagarde’s brief rule, and none have yet achieved that rank under Glasya except Tartach, who has abandoned Baalzebul to serve the daughter of Asmodeus.




Tartach’s abandonment of Baalzebul makes sense given his flavor text posted above.  Glasya has no court besides him as of yet, although it’s quite possible that Bethage and Herobaal have joined with her.


----------



## Voadam (Feb 15, 2007)

Amon also appears in the web enhancement of Book of Vile Darkness along with and as a servant of Geryon.


----------



## Shade (Feb 15, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Moloch has got to be the most pitiful soul among the outcast dukes, since he used to actually be one of the Lords of the Nine.  I can’t imagine that his every waking moment is not consumed with the idea of getting a spot as one of the Lords.  It was bad enough that the Hag Countess got his position through manipulating him, but now Glasya has usurped it when it should have been him doing the usurping!




At least he's still around, and isn't encased in an massive glacier.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> So Bileth at least remained with the Hag after Moloch was banished.  I doubt much that Lilith would have remained with her at all.




So where did Lilith end up?


----------



## BOZ (Feb 15, 2007)

as Baalzebul's "second consort" - sort of his backup in case Baftis has a headache.


----------



## Shade (Feb 15, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> as Baalzebul's "second consort" - sort of his backup in case Baftis has a headache.




The thought of His Offalness having _any_ consort is beyond revolting!


----------



## Ripzerai (Feb 15, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> So Bileth at least remained with the Hag after Moloch was banished.  I doubt much that Lilith would have remained with her at all.  the pit fiends Bethage and Herobaal are never mentioned again after Dragon #76 to the best of my knowledge, so who knows what happened to them.  Bileth may have remained until the Hag was destroyed, then went back to Baalzebul at that point.  Tartach may have also stayed on with the Hag, waiting to see if an opportunity arose, or he may have gone back to Baalzebul and returned once Glasya took over.




Perhaps the hag destroyed them when they failed one of her inspections:



			
				Dragon Magazine said:
			
		

> The Hag Countess of Malbolge Malagard, the Hag Queen of the Crushing Lands, delights in surprise appearances. The cities of her layer are huge bronze citadels, each of which is under the command of a pit fiend. The citadels constantly resound from the huge boulders crashing into them, and the inhabitants need to be constantly vigilant of stresses in the bronze. If they're not, Malagard makes sure that the next inhabitants will be: more than one fortress has lost its inhabitants when she's come in with her great flaming sword to correct their mistakes.




Perhaps Bileth and Tartach were put in charge of bronze citadels, and didn't take the duty as seriously as the Hag required.


----------



## BOZ (Feb 15, 2007)

Bethage and Herobaal may certainly have met a fate ilke that.  regardless, i doubt they went back to Baalzebul at any point, given his hatred and distrust of pit fiends after the Reckoning.  i wouldn't be surprised if they had stayed with the Hag as you suggest, and if they survived that i think they would have stayed in with Glasya.

Oh yes, also, forgot about Zapan working for Moloch before the Reckoning as well… absolutely one of the sources for his hatred of pit fiends.


----------



## BOZ (Feb 15, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> The thought of His Offalness having _any_ consort is beyond revolting!




let alone two! i'm sure they spend as much time away from him as possible, and they have competitions for faking the biggest headaches when he does find them.


----------



## Ripzerai (Feb 15, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Bethage and Herobaal may certainly have met a fate ilke that.  regardless, i doubt they went back to Baalzebul at any point, given his hatred and distrust of pit fiends after the Reckoning.




Baalzebul hated pit fiends before the Reckoning as well, though the Reckoning didn't help matters.

Dragon #76, page 24:



> Pit fiends are noticeably absent from Baalzebul's service on Maladomini; the Lord of the Flies suspects all such of being spies for Asmodeus, and is reluctant to allow any of the creatures on the same plane he inhabits.




As it turned out, as soon as he loosened his standards, he was proven right.


----------



## BOZ (Feb 16, 2007)

Let’s explore Baalzebul, then, shall we?  

MALADOMINI


			
				Dragon #76 said:
			
		

> The seventh plane of the hells is also ruled by Baalzebul, who dwells there in a great fortress of black stone. Baalzebul’s fortress, Malagard, sprawls for many miles, and consists of countless black spired towers linked by many open and covered bridge-spans that crisscross and slant crazily in all directions. Here Baalzebul is attended by his consort Baftis, his herald Neabaz, and his marshal Barbatos, plus malebranche and many lesser devils of all sorts whom he has commanded to service. Malagard’s rooms, passages, and dungeons are so vast and numerous that it is said not even the Lord of the Flies himself has visited all of them. Most of those who escape cells of torment in Malagard flee to the dungeons, seldom penetrated very deeply by the devils, and many weird creatures are said to roam this lightless underworld…
> Neabaz (as herald) is the only devil allowed by Baalzebul to move freely about the hells. Barbatos is charged with the duty of arranging malebranche messengers and weaponry so that the armies of Maladomini can be gathered quickly for battle. These malebranche armies - 60 companies under the duke Abigor, and 28 under the duke Zepar - are customarily occupied with the endless construction of Malagard, other fortresses, and linking roads. Spined devils, typically overseen by styx devils or (rarely) bone devils, feed and tend to the wants of the malebranche laborers. Pit fiends are noticeably absent from Baalzebul’s service on Maladomini; the Lord of the Flies suspects all such of being spies for Asmodeus, and is reluctant to allow any of the creatures on the same plane he inhabits.




As established already, Baalzebul was a fallen archon who Asmodeus favored over an ancient ally of his; this Lord of the Seventh was slain and Baalzebul put in his position.

We also decided Corin, the future spymaster, would fit in well here before the Reckoning.  And he was the first and last pit fiend to work for Baalzebul for a long time.



			
				Dragon #76 said:
			
		

> Baftis is consort to Baalzebul, The Lord of the Flies. A quiet, subservient consort, she is more than a little afraid of her lord, and rarely acts on her own behalf without specific permission from him. Baftis is somewhat proud and will be outraged if her person or belongings are threatened by lesser creatures. Her fanged bite does 2-8 points of damage. She normally carries a bronze spear…
> She causes fear by speaking to a creature within 3” (save vs. spell at -1 to avoid)…
> Description: Baftis appears as a tall, attractive, but rather forbidding human female, save for her tall, spired horns, batlike wings, crimson skin, and hooves. She has no tail, and - unusual for a devil - eyes of lavender hue. She almost always wears loose, open robes; it is said she is sensitive about the lighter shade of her skin down her back - of a human, almost ivory hue. Once a human on the Prime Material Plane uttered an oath mentioning “the pearly spine of Baftis,” and she took that as a summons, appearing and rending the unfortunate with her jaws and claws (which do 1-3 damage each when she is weaponless).
> 
> ...






			
				Faces of Evil: the Fiends said:
			
		

> The dukes Abigor and Zepar lead their armies through Maladomini, standing watch against their master's enemies (and driving all pit fiends from the layer - Triel sees them as spies and puppets of the dark Lord of the Ninth). The herald Neabaz spreads the word of the great Slug, and the numerous flies of the decaying layer act as his eyes and ears.






			
				Book of Vile Darkness said:
			
		

> Baalzebul has a number of otyughs wandering about his palace that he tolerates because they eat the feces that otherwise threatens to consume the place due to Asmodeus’s curse. A large number of ghargatulas… roam the premises as well, acting as personal guards to the Lord of the Flies. Baalzebul also has three pit fiend bodyguards – Teurn, Wysturak, and Yaghoq – all of whom has maximum hit points and wear _rings of protection +4_.
> The Nyashk is the heart of Baalzebul’s army. It consists of sixteen female fiendish bugbear sorcerers, each wielding a _harrow rod_. Each of the Nyashk wears a special helmet designed to look like the head of a giant fly. These warriors move as a wedge of unbelievable might on the battlefield, spewing acid from their rods and casting devastating spells such as _cone of cold_ and _disintegrate_.
> Vashaak Ratoth Bruu is the offspring of one of the Hag Countess’ most powerful medusa servants. She presented Baalzebul with Vashaak as a gift in an attempt to forge an alliance.  The alliance is not yet formed, but Baalzebul has become somewhat enchanted with the male medusa. Vashaak is now the chief handservant of the archdevil, serving as his hands in all sorts of tasks, many of them unsavory even by Vashaak’s standards. Vashaak wears an iron mask to hide his petrifying gaze and keeps his snakes wrapped in a single iron chain atop his head. The mask and the chains can be shed very quickly (as a free action) if Vashaak needs to enter battle.






			
				Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells said:
			
		

> A sizeable court serves the Lord of Lies. His attendants include unique devils such as Baftis (First Consort), Lilith (Second Consort), Neabaz (Herald of Lies), Barbatos (Marshal of Maladomini), and the generals Abigor, Bileth, and Zepar.




As mentioned above, Lilith and Bileth rejoined Baalzebul’s court as a result of Moloch’s fall.  I don’t envy Baftis and Lilith one tiny bit. Eeewwwww.


----------



## BOZ (Feb 16, 2007)

Ripzerai said:
			
		

> Nisroch is probably from Maladomini, given that he tried to assassinate Abigor.




Ooh, forgot about you!




			
				Shemeska said:
			
		

> But off the top of my head, since I used her in a story I wrote, there's the female pit fiend Lydzin, commander of the mobile Baatezu fortress 'The Relentless'. (_Hellbound_ - Squaring the Circle)






			
				Ripzerai said:
			
		

> Balruhk the Invincible is a pit fiend general who plays a part in the fiend article in Dragon #306. He seems to serve the Dark Eight, rather than any specific Lord of the Nine (since he's a general in the Blood War). Though with the horrible set-up in Fiendish Codex II, that means he serves Bel.




You figure there are spots to work these pit fiends in somewhere?  If not, no big deal; we have enough going on already.


----------



## Ripzerai (Feb 16, 2007)

Since Balruhk and Lydzin are generals in the Blood War, they'd presumedly serve Bel. Balruhk's current status is unclear. It's very possible his spirit was torn apart to help create the elemental demons (Dragon Compendium).


----------



## BOZ (Feb 16, 2007)

gotcha.

there's probably not much more to say about Baalzebul at the moment then, so...

CANIA


			
				Dragon #76 said:
			
		

> The frigid eighth plane of the hells is ruled by Mephistopheles, the mighty Lord of No Mercy or Cold Lord. This scheming arch-devil rules the frozen wastes of Caina with the help of his consort Baalphegor and his staff: Barbas, chamberlain of Mephistar (Mephistopheles‘ iron citadel) and guardian of Mephistopheles’ wealth and treasures; Adonides, steward of Caina, who oversees the administration and defense of the realm; and Bele, justiciar, who sits in judgement of all disputes within Caina. Mephistopheles is cunning enough to allow the appearance of justice - and thus win the ease and resulting loyalty of his vassals, as well as reassurance for other devils elsewhere in the Nine Hells who might consider supporting him in a bid to overthrow Asmodeus, showing them that an independent judiciary would be installed under the rule of Mephistopheles, were he to become Overlord of Hell.
> Malebranche and spined devils staff the iron citadel of Mephistar, which perches high in the icy mountains at the heart of the plane. Much of Caina is a land of ice-covered boulders and mountains, ruins of stone (for it took the devils long to learn that nothing on the glaciers could withstand the inexorable ice), and sprawling glaciers. Bifrons, one of the dukes of Caina, rules from a cold blue palace carved out of the slow-moving ice of a rift in the center of the great glacier Nargus. This glacier is staffed by the ice devils who populate the plane, and by spined devils, who perform the most menial tasks.
> Mephistopheles is one of the most careful and suspicious of the arch-devils, and the halls and chambers of Mephistar are patrolled and inhabited by devils in accordance with a strict schedule of activities. Only Bele, Barbas, and Adonides are free of this iron regimentation, and Mephistopheles wants to know where they are and what they are doing at all times. All three devils delight in deceiving their lord as to precisely where they are and what they are doing, but such deceptions are always small things, for they dare go no further in light of the possible punishments…
> The dukes of Caina are Hutijin, who commands two mighty legions of pit fiends, the nobles of Caina (including Silcharde, Bechard, Guland, Sphandor, and Buldumech); Bifrons, who commands 26 companies of ice devils in Nargus; and Nexroth, who leads 16 companies of malebranche. The pit fiends and malebranche dwell in the rocky spires and pits of the outermost fringes of Caina. These are hot regions crisscrossed by colder, steaming, slimy waters which at length give way to marches of icy ooze which rise at length into the frozen mountains of the plane’s interior.
> The strength and ambition of the pit fiends (particularly those named above) are a weakness in Mephistopheles’ control over his own plane - a weakness encouraged and delighted in by his foes - particularly Baalzebul, who has spies among the malebranche, and seeks to foster unrest. Only a few of the pit fiends remain strictly loyal to Mephistopheles (without Hutijin, the Cold Lord would soon face open revolt and could not hold the plane). Most seek to gain the most power they can in any change of rulership, and favor dissent and change among the arch-devils as the only way to better their own lot. None have openly defied Mephistopheles yet, but a time will come . . . unless, of course, Mephistopheles defeats Asmodeus, whereupon their loyalty will be loudly conspicuous. Mephistopheles is openly distrustful of Nexroth, who is totally selfish and loyal only to himself; he will do whatever seems best for his own advancement. Nexroth retains his command only because he seems the most reliable of the pit fiends, and Mephistopheles dares not allow open conflict within Caina for fear that another arch-devil would take advantage of the situation. If not for this, the Cold Lord would cheerfully shift the command whenever it suited him, playing the pit fiends off against one another indefinitely.




As mentioned earlier, the “nobles of Caina” in parentheses (Silcharde, Bechard, Guland, Sphandor, and Buldumech) were going to be our “sacrificial lambs” that Mephistopheles weeded out of his court with the Molikroth ploy.

We’re also going to have Pearza (whose interest in research meshes with Baalphegor) as a temporary servant of Mephisto.  as what, again, and who's the replacement (if that matters)?



			
				Monster Manual II said:
			
		

> Hutijin commands 2 companies of pit fiends in service to Mephistopheles. These creatures are, in fact, the aristocracy of the Eighth Plane, just as Hutijin is one of the greatest of Hell's dukes. He uses a net of snaring and a +3 trident in battle…
> Hutijin causes fear by voice tone within a 30 foot radius with a saving throw vs. rods et al., applicable…
> Hutijin resembles a pit fiend, although his wings are proportionately smaller and his head is larger. His hide is a dark rust-red color.






			
				Dragon #76 said:
			
		

> Baalphegor is consort to Mephistopheles, and a most highly regarded she-devil. Personally attractive (and a practiced diplomat), she is charming in manner and artful in thought; she has invented many of the strategies and devices used in the hells. Asmodeus regards her as one of his most valuable assets, and tolerates the machinations of Mephistopheles largely because of her. Baalphegor’s own desires are seldom revealed; she appears loyal to the hells and devoted to Mephistopheles, and manages to avoid making a distinction between the two…
> She causes fear (2” range) by pointing at the desired creature (save vs. spell at -2 to avoid)…
> Description: Baalphegor is a musical-voiced, beautiful female, apparently human, save for her ruby-red eyes, forked tail, and slim, delicate leathery wings. Her feet are human in appearance, and she is sleek and curvaceous, with cinnamon-brown skin. She appears young and carefree, but when angered her light voice can crack like a whip, and her eyes flash fire.
> 
> ...






			
				Faces of Evil: the Fiends said:
			
		

> Molikroth's servants are the dukes Nexroth and Hutijin, who command companies of pit fiends. His chamberlain is the relatively weak noble Barbas, who revels in his association with the powerful lord.




These are probably the ones who remained most loyal to him throughout his “coup,” or at least the ones who stayed out in the open while the others continued to operate behind the scenes.



			
				Book of Vile Darkness said:
			
		

> Songs of praise always fill the throne room of Mephistopheles. The voice behind them is that of Antilia, a darkly beautiful half-fiend elf bard with red bat wings and red skin like her master. Antilia is Mephistopheles’ daughter, but no one in the court knows that.  She has led Baalzebul to believe that she works for him as a spy in Mephistar, but in fact she is double-crossing him and feeding him incorrect information.
> Testaron is a new arrival at the court of Mephistopheles. Bribed with vast amounts of treasure, this dragon has come from the Material Plane to make Mephistopheles’s throne room seem more forebidding. His job is to lounge about the vast hall and look fearsome. So far, it’s working.
> Mephistopheles also commands a vast number of extremely powerful devils, including, of course, the 9,999 gelugons that reportedly guard the gates to Nessus.




Ooh, cant believe I never noticed Antilia before.  Obviously, since she’s a half-fiend, her mom is not Baalphegor.



			
				Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells said:
			
		

> The court of Mephistopheles includes several unique devils, such as Adonides (Steward of Cania), Baalphegor (the lord's consort), Barbas (Chamberlain of Mephistar), and Bele (Justiciar of Cania), plus a host of pit fiends, including Bechard, Buldumech, Guland, Silcharde, and Sphandor. The unique devils Bifrons and Hutijin command the armies stationed in Cania, in cooperation with the pit fiend Nexroth.


----------



## Voadam (Feb 16, 2007)

Lydzin also appears in the 3e module Lord of the Iron Fortress, I believe she is outcast at that point.


----------



## Shroomy (Feb 16, 2007)

I don't have it in front of me, but doesn't some info on Baalphegor appear in "Dawn of the New Age" in _Dungeon_ 135?


----------



## BOZ (Feb 17, 2007)

could be.  does it add anything to Mephistopheles' hierarchy as above?


----------



## Shroomy (Feb 17, 2007)

According to "Dawn of a New Age," Baalphegor has disappeared.  Also, the pit fiend Buldumech left Cania and sought to gain power and usurp Mephistopheles by allying with Lashonna and releasing Kyuss on Oerth.


----------



## BOZ (Feb 19, 2007)

hmm, so what happened to Baalphegor then?  i guess we should assume she reappeared?

and Buldumech being out and about puts a slight damper on my plans for him being dead.    need new plan... although, at least now, it's _quite_ clear that Mephistopheles can't trust him.  

also, to repeat from above, "We’re also going to have Pearza (whose interest in research meshes with Baalphegor) as a temporary servant of Mephisto. as what, again, and who's the replacement (if that matters)?"


----------



## Shade (Feb 19, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> also, to repeat from above, "We’re also going to have Pearza (whose interest in research meshes with Baalphegor) as a temporary servant of Mephisto. as what, again, and who's the replacement (if that matters)?"




Baal...Mephisto....paging Diablo.


----------



## BOZ (Feb 20, 2007)

heh...  

anything more to say on Mephistopheles' court, or should we move on to the last big bad guy?


----------



## Shade (Feb 20, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> anything more to say on Mephistopheles' court, or should we move on to the last big bad guy?




Move on?


----------



## BOZ (Feb 21, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Move on?




The Dark Lord awaits...

NESSUS


			
				Dragon #76 said:
			
		

> Asmodeus rarely leaves his palace, making his will known and acted upon by servants of apparently unshakeable loyalty. Adramalech serves him as chancellor, recording the numbers, acquisitions, and transformations of the lemurs and larvae, torments suffered by devils, the names of those who serve the diabolic on other planes, and the making and terms of all pacts and contracts. The Keeper of the Records answers to no one but the Overlord himself, and has his own tower in the palace, ringed at all times by six pit fiends. This guard detail is ordered by the pit fiend Baalberith, major domo of the palace, probably at the behest of Asmodeus, and is little liked by Adramalech. A similar guard rings the chamber or person of Bensozia, consort to Asmodeus, at all times. Another 54 pit fiends round out the palace guard.
> Phongor is the most feared devil in Nessus, after Asmodeus himself; he serves Asmodeus as inquisitor, and little information escapes his probing questions and methods of persuasion.
> The greatest pit fiend of all, the awesomely scarred, broken-winged Alastor, serves Asmodeus as executioner. His strength is that of a storm giant’s, and he never speaks. It is said in the hells that if all were swept away and Asmodeus could choose but one devil as a companion, that one would be neither consort nor lieutenant, but Alastor the Grim.
> Another pit fiend, Martinet, is constable of Nessus, responsible for the personal armies of Asmodeus. These armies camp eternally around the palace, and their generals confer often with the Overlord. These proud dukes are: Buer, who commands 15 companies of pit fiends; Morax, leader of nine such companies; Bune, general of 30 companies of malebranche; Rimmon, head of five companies of ice devils; and Zagum, leader of 30 companies of barbed devils. It is said that the nycadaemon Daerith once appeared unannounced over the lake of Cocytus and flew toward the palace of Asmodeus, and before it reached the crags about the lake was destroyed utterly, torn apart bodily by pit fiends on patrol. With such guardians, it is small wonder why the mysteries of the plane are so many, and the visitors who return whence they came so few.






			
				Ripzerai said:
			
		

> Add Martinet, who was a pit fiend in the 1e MM2 but promoted to unique status in Guide to Hell and Book of Vile Darkness.
> 
> Also add Selm, Prince of Possessors, from Dragon #42. He's in Asmodeus' court. He's served by six lesser nobles - Thyle, Cykes, Tyd, Nausyyd, Dyclex, and Hyrkovan - but they might be treated as incorporeal pit fiends or Fiends of Possession.




Cantrum, of course, was also once commander of Asmodeus’ armies and the Dark Eight, until his assassination. 

Armaros and Dagon/Jaqon were once part of Asmodeus’ court, but not sure how long ago or what their deal was.



			
				Dragon #76 said:
			
		

> Bensozia is the consort of Asmodeus, and staunchly supports her mate. She is personally the most powerful of the consorts, but her influence is entirely linked with that of Asmodeus; it is said that “Bensozia speaks not, save by the leave of the Great One.” Bensozia seems happy in her position, although she is not always physically with Asmodeus, but her natural manner is coldly polite and haughty, seldom revealing her true feelings. She bears a brass scepter that does 4-16 damage to all creatures of good alignment, 3-12 damage to devils, and 2-8 damage to others. Empty-handed, she strikes with her hands for 2-12 damage…
> She causes fear (6” range) by speaking to an individual (save vs. spell at -2 to avoid)…
> Description: Bensozia is a tall statuesque, human-appearing devil. She has long white hair, large glistening black eyes, scarlet skin, large brown hooves, and a forked tail. She always wears loose black robes with a scarlet silk lining within, and, as Queen of Hell, a diadem of beaten gold set with large rubies (total value 26,000 gp).
> 
> ...






			
				Faces of Evil: the Fiends said:
			
		

> The servants of the Overlord are unknown but whispers claim the Executioner of Baator, Alastor the Grim, serves the mysterious lord unquestioningly.




I don’t doubt that he does!  He seems to be one of the most popular pit fiends among fans, and I’d say for good reason.



			
				Guide to Hell said:
			
		

> Much to Bel’s surprise, no ravening hordes swept into Avernus. Instead, Asmodeus sent Martinet, his constable, to meet with Bel. Martinet first congratulated Bel on his coup, praising his guile and his capacity for long-term planning. He then informed Bel that Asmodeus had decided not to “make him burn in the Pit of Flame for all eternity.” Rather, Asmodeus would support Bel as lord, but only if he continued to fulfill his obligations to the Dark Eight. Bel, delighted that his treachery had found favor with the Dark Lord of Nessus, agreed to the terms immediately…
> Bel’s current policy is to support Asmodeus in the hopes of further advancement. To that end, he has inserted spies into the courts of the other lords and funnels information through Martinet to Asmodeus. While most of the information garnered isn’t news to the Dark Lord, the effort has curried some favor with him.
> 
> Martinet is the constable of Asmodeus. His job is to clean up the frequent political messes of Hell. His influence has stopped several wars from breaking out among the lords, and his diplomacy has ended even more conflicts. Martinet has an extremely level head, and he never flies off the handle. He has withstood the tirades of Baalzebul and Mephistopheles without so much as raising an eyebrow. While most of the lords think that he is a tiresome meddler, they cannot ignore his office without offending the devil who stands behind the constable: Asmodeus.






			
				Book of Vile Darkness said:
			
		

> Technically, all devils are the servants of Asmodeus. Nevertheless, he has some elite creatures that he utilizes. Six powerful hamatula mortal hunters called the Spark Hunters serve as his elite agents on the Material Plane.
> Glasya is the daughter of Asmodeus and Bensozia, who was killed by Levistus (hence his icy imprisonment). For a long while, Glasya spent her days as the consort of Mammon, but that was mostly just to stir up trouble for various archdevils, including her father, when it struck her fancy. Now she serves in her father’s court, but she is dissatisfied and bored with her fate. She is about 9 feet tall, appearing to be a beautiful human woman with bat wings and long black hair. She has coppery-colored skin, tiny horns on her head, and a forked tail.
> Martinet serves as the constable of Asmodeus, managing many of his affairs, particularly interaction with other devils. As such, when two powerful denizens of hell go to war, it is up to Martinet to put a stop to it If hell’s master does not wish the war to continue. While Martinet is not as powerful as most archdevils, the fact that he is the mouth, eyes, and ears of Asmodeus earns him far more respect than he would otherwise be due. The threats and tirades of others never impress him, and he always has a cutting retort.




Needless to say, Martinet started off in his position as a pit fiend, being promoted to unique fiend while in his service.  He’s also responsible for helping to hook up Bel with his current position – maybe that’s how Martinet got promoted as well.



			
				Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells said:
			
		

> The court of Asmodeus encompasses both unique devils and pit fiends. The former group includes Adramalech (Chancellor of Hell), Phongor (Inquisitor of Nessus), and the commanders Buer, Bune, Morax, Rimmon, and Zagum. The latter group includes Alastor (Executioner of Nessus), Baalberith (Major-domo of the palace of Asmodeus), and Martinet (Constable of Nessus).


----------



## Ripzerai (Feb 21, 2007)

FC2 didn't "get" that Martinet isn't a pit fiend anymore. I wonder if there's a new pit fiend doing his old job?


----------



## BOZ (Feb 21, 2007)

does FC2 actually say whether he is a pit fiend or unique devil?  i'll have to go back and look...


----------



## BOZ (Feb 21, 2007)

i didn't see anything in that book on the subject, but i could have just missed it.


----------



## Ripzerai (Feb 21, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> does FC2 actually say whether he is a pit fiend or unique devil?  i'll have to go back and look...




Yes, in the passage you quote above:



> The court of Asmodeus encompasses both unique devils and pit fiends.






> The latter group includes... Martinet (Constable of Nessus).


----------



## BOZ (Feb 21, 2007)

oh!  it helps one to catch things when one actually reads it...   i think that's going to be yet another one for the "ignore" pile.  


OK, i want to take a step backwards for a moment:

http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3347004&postcount=109

Hmm, dummy me; looking back on it, I probably went through Maladomini too fast. Baalzebul’s court is easily one of the biggest aside from Asmodeus’, so I think it bears further discussion.  Some of the dukes might even have been in the original Lord of the Seventh’s court before Triel became Baalzebul.  He is notoriously distrusting of pit fiends and probably eliminated or “promoted” any who were in place at the time.  Regardless, many dukes have been with him since before the Reckoning, and still are now.  Moloch may have been a part of his court, or he may have merely been part of Levistus’ court and willing to become vassal of Baalzebul in hopes of using that to leverage his way into Levistus’ spot.  Baftis has likely been with Baalzebul since he took over the layer, as would Neabaz and Barbatos likely as well.  Nisroch was apparently in his court at some point.  Lilith, Abigor, Zepar, Bileth, and Tartach probably came along later, and when Nisroch tried to assassinate Abigor he was banished.  When Moloch became Lord of the Sixth, Lilith, Bileth, and Tartach were sent along to assist him – and keep him in check.  The pit fiend Corin managed to earn Baalzebul’s trust long enough to betray him as part of the Reckoning.  Lilith and Bileth returned to Baalzebul not long thereafter.  Three pit fiends, Teurn, Wysturak, and Yaghoq, now serve as Baalzebul’s bodyguards – perhaps they managed to prove themselves trustworthy despite his paranoid of pit fiends, or maybe he has found some better way to keep them under his full control. Vashaak Ratoth Bruu, the medusa offspring, serves Baalzebul most closely as his handservant, joining him shortly before Malagarde’s death.  I think that Baalzebul and Moloch’s relationship is strained, but could become tighter once again under the right circumstances.


----------



## rossik (Feb 22, 2007)

wow..thats A LOT of info...

sorry if i miss the point of the topic, but is this gonig to be divided by name?

like, u have the name of the duke and then info about him...
kinnda a dumb question, i know, but im really interested about this, but it seems a bit "brain storming" yet
(and my knowledge isnt even 1/3 of what you guys know about this!)


----------



## BOZ (Feb 22, 2007)

something like that, depending on how i work it out.


----------



## rossik (Feb 23, 2007)

oh, ok...very nice to know!

(i created a topic with my question, thanks )


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## BOZ (Feb 23, 2007)

that's probably a better question for another thread.    it is a *good* question though, just very off topic for this thread.


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