# [SCOOP] Psionics 3.5, The New Setting, and Dark Sun!!



## The Dragon (Feb 5, 2003)

You will notice by my postcount that I decided to create a new identity so I could post this. I don't want to get my source into any trouble.

Here is what I learned today from a friend inside Wizards. Sorry. I want say who, because I'm not sure if this info was supposed to go public or not yet.

Anyway, on to the goods.

It was stated a few days ago that Wizard's was concerned that their new setting might deviate from the norm to far. Why? Psionics. It seems that the new setting derived from the contest is indeed psionics heavy and they want to get an idea as to how well it would be accepted.

However, that wasn't the primary reason for the poll. The main reason, was the fact that Wizard's R&D department is looking to officially bring back Dark Sun [Whoohoo!] and was testing the waters for it.

The third bit of new news, was that Wizards is seriously considering a revision for the psionics book. Oddly enough though, I had been told earlier that this wasn't the case. I suppose things change.

With two new psionics heavy settings in the works, and the fact that the original psionics book sold really well [despite many gleaming errors], I'm betting we will see a Psionics Handbook 3.5


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## BiggusGeekus (Feb 5, 2003)

Re: Dark Sun:  Excellent!

Re: Psi 3.5:  Bogus.

Re: new setting designed around psi: Excellent!


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## Shadow64 (Feb 5, 2003)

I never got to play in Dark Sun (read the books, read a lot of the setting material, never got to play) but I would love to see it revamped as a 3E world.  It seems that a lot of people have made Dark Sun-like world for the home brews, so I'm pretty sure that a 3E edition of it would sell like hot cakes.  I know I would pick up a copy.


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## Simplicity (Feb 5, 2003)

HOORAY!  A return of Dark Sun would be most welcome.
Now if I could just convince people to play it...  

A revision of psionics would be nice too...  I'm not entirely 
sure I like all of the psionics rules as is.  They tried to make 
sure psionics wasn't super overpowering, and they succeeded.  Psionics SUCKS in comparison to magic.  IMO, they NEED to give psionics some "signature" powers that ARE slightly overpowered.
Where's the psionic fireball?  Where's the psionic magic missile?

If they can bump down Haste, Harm, and Heal, then maybe they can bump UP some psionic abilities...  

Here's one idea...  Leave the Schism powers as is.  Don't reduce it like Haste.  Bump up Animal Affinity to be a +3 bonus...  There are tons of psionic powers that are just duplicates of normal spells.  Maybe psionicists should be better at some things.


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## rounser (Feb 5, 2003)

Dark Sun was a setting where psionics fitted, but it wasn't standard Tolkienesque swords & sorcery, but rather, dark future type stuff where everything was alien and threatening, not just the psionics.  It'd be great to have that setting back, had a lot of fun playing there.

Everything about WotC's contest suggested that they wanted a standard swords & sorcery fantasy setting, and as far as psionics taking a core role alongside standard S&S tropes, well...the idea isn't to my taste.  Unless it's used as something rare, unusual or alien (i.e. moreso than magic is), it has a tendency to ruin that swords & sorcery fantasy atmosphere for me.


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## Dragongirl (Feb 5, 2003)

No offense, but anyone can make an account and claim "sources" like this.  I will take this with a grain of salt.  It would be nice to see Dark Sun come back.


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## I'm A Banana (Feb 5, 2003)

Dark Sun: YIPPEEE!

The new campaign setting: Hurm....I'll have to see the setting.

Psionics revision: Hurm....

This one is wierd. I'd like to see a psionics 3.5, but I wouldn't want them to overhaul the system, or turn it into a skill or feat system. I wouldn't mind turning psionic combat into just bonus psionic feats.

To a large extent, the psion works as it is. It could use a mild bump, but it doesn't need much. They mostly just need MORE. I use psionics fairly heavily IMC's, and they're fairly differentiated (I like the idea of psionics and magic being different). They're different then magic since they bridge the gap between buffs, charms, damage spells, etc. that is present in the Wizard/Cleric standard array, and they can do this in armor without a problem (which is an oft-overlooked benefit, I think).

Turn the psionic combat into psychic feats, and you're all good.


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## The Dragon (Feb 5, 2003)

Sorry DG, but I can assure you this isn't a troll.

I'm hoping Anthony V. will come on here and shed some light.

I'd post my sources, but like I said, I don't want to see anyone get into trouble as I'm not sure this was suppose to go public yet.

I can understand a degree of skepticism though. All I can say is wait and see.


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## Henry (Feb 5, 2003)

If these rumors are true, I have to say I am enthusiastic to hear them, as I loved Dark sun and am anxious to see the return of this fantastic setting. 

The psionics could stand revision, particularly in the realm of psionic combat and in power scaling.

Thank you for the info!


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## Simplicity (Feb 5, 2003)

You know what else I want to see?
Playing cards for psionic combat.  Any psionic handbook should come with four decks... Two attack decks and two defense decks.  The cards will just be the attack and defense powers.  No need to look up things on that stupid table on page WHO KNOWS of the psionics handbook.


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## Dragongirl (Feb 5, 2003)

Simplicity said:
			
		

> *You know what else I want to see?
> Playing cards for psionic combat.   *




_Astral construct IV, I choose you!!!!!!_


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## rounser (Feb 5, 2003)

While we're at it, why not collectible random boosters of pet rocks.


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## Agamon (Feb 5, 2003)

A new Dark Sun...after a new Dragonlance, plus whatever this contest campaign turns out to be.  Hmmm...

I coulda swore that one of the things TSR did wrong, according to the WotC brass, was branch out into a bunch of different settings, losing its focus, and making books that few people would buy, compared to more generic splats that were generally more useful to everyone and less campiagn-specific.

It also goes against their rule that nothing they put out for D&D would require anything but the core books.

I am very skeptical of this...


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## Simplicity (Feb 5, 2003)

No, no, no...  Not collectable cards...  We're not talking about 
buying psionic power packets at the store.

I'm talking about one card for each attack/defense power.  One for Ego Whip, one for Mind Blast, one for Intellect Fortress, etc... 

Each attack card could then say the resulting damage done based on the defense card.  

Plus, you can flip cards over to reveal both attack and defense at the same time.   As opposed to now, where you get the crappy action of:

Psionicist 1: "Ego Whip!"  

Psionicist 2: "Ego Whip, huh?  Let me consult my table..."

While we're they're revising psionics, they should consider making psionic combat an ACTUAL OPTION in combat.  Seriously, has anyone seen a psionic combat work successfully?

Psionicst 1: "I deal you 3 points of Wisdom damage! Haha!"

Psionicist 2: "What are you kidding?  Who gives a crap about Wisdom damage.  I deal 25 points of actual damage with my sword...  And then maybe my party members will deal additional damage with their swords.  Anybody else around here doing Wisdom damage to me?  No?  Oh well, looks like you're screwed."


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## Morrus (Feb 5, 2003)

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *No offense, but anyone can make an account and claim "sources" like this.  I will take this with a grain of salt.  It would be nice to see Dark Sun come back. *




Would it help if I were to say that I believe The Dragon?


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## Victim (Feb 5, 2003)

Or you deal some Wisdom damage, and the other Disintegrates you.  Tough break.  Psionic combat is clunky add on that functions mostly as a drawback for psions.


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## gfunk (Feb 5, 2003)

Morrus said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Would it help if I were to say that I believe The Dragon? *




Woo hoo!


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## John Crichton (Feb 5, 2003)

Morrus said:
			
		

> *Would it help if I were to say that I believe The Dragon? *





Yes.  Yes it would.  I dug Dark Sun and would love to see it supported by WotC.


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## Citizen Mane (Feb 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Morrus_
> *Would it help if I were to say that I believe The Dragon?*




Well, if Morrus believes The Dragon, I guess the only thing to do is wait for the Stone of Tear to fall.  *heads off, making sure there aren't any Aiel lurking in his pantry*

In any case, all of this seems like good news. 

Best,
tKL


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## thundershot (Feb 5, 2003)

Morrus said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Would it help if I were to say that I believe The Dragon? *





Okay, I'm in!




Chris


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## Voneth (Feb 5, 2003)

Good news all around! If it is true.

I would still perfer a skill based system. But I could handle the current system if it was boosted in healing and canned the psi combat system

[sarcasm] They already did that in d20 Modern and everyone was so upset. [/sarcasm]


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## Dragongirl (Feb 5, 2003)

Morrus said:
			
		

> *Would it help if I were to say that I believe The Dragon? *



Well if the prehensile one says so, that is another matter altogether.


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## Technik4 (Feb 5, 2003)

*Dark Sun, Psionics, Revisions Oh my*

My .000002. I'd be willing to buy a core Dark Sun book. I am very dubious about buying another Psi Handbook. The one I own gets very little use as it is, hard to justify buying ANOTHER one when this one isnt even very worn. Maybe if they added an adventure and like ALL of sound mind (which I never bought because I can't find anywhere that sells the book). I would definitely download the SRD and update my books on 3.5 psionics for free though. Lots of room to expand, imo.

Oh, and Im down for buying some Dark Sun adventure modules if a company does a good job on them.

Psionic Combat, kinda weird, fun if everyone is psionic (or a little, which may be the case in the Dark Sun setting) but not so fun if only one player is.

Technik


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## WanderingMonster (Feb 5, 2003)

Well, if the new setting is psionics heavy, and Dark Sun is being resurrected then it makes sense to revise psionics.  It sucks, but it makes sense.  To recap:

New Setting: Yay!
Dark Sun: Yay!! 
Psionics Revised: Boo. [basically I'm just not pleased about the whoe 3.5 thing anyway]


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## Aaron L (Feb 5, 2003)

Rad beyond belief.


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## Dinkeldog (Feb 5, 2003)

Since psionics is in the SRD, it would make sense that any revision to psionics would also be in the SRD.  That makes it as free as the rest of the changes involved in 3.5.  Buy it again if you want, log the changes from the SRD if you don't.


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## Nightfall (Feb 5, 2003)

Kajamba Lion said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Well, if Morrus believes The Dragon, I guess the only thing to do is wait for the Stone of Tear to fall.  *heads off, making sure there aren't any Aiel lurking in his pantry*
> 
> ...




LOL!  Good one Kajamba. Well I'm sure the DS fans (and some Scarred Lands fans too!) are happy about this one. Myself, hey it's all good isn't it?


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## Terraism (Feb 5, 2003)

Woohoo! 

Can't be happier, I'm thinking.  Woohoo!


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## Voneth (Feb 5, 2003)

Agamon said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I coulda swore that one of the things TSR did wrong, according to the WotC brass, was branch out into a bunch of different settings, losing its focus, and making books that few people would buy, compared to more generic splats that were generally more useful to everyone and less campiagn-specific.
> 
> ...




I agree and then I remembered a few things. Wotc said the main problem with what TSR did was to set up so many settings and then try support them all. This is why CoC and WoT have only a couple of books. I guess SW is different enough and is a seperate audience enough that they don't see it that way. I also remember hearing that WotC has a new policy, if someone buys a licence from them, WotC gets to publish the core setting book and the licencee get the supplements and adventures. Dragonlance is supposed to be like this, though Ravenloft is not.

And one of the advantages of the d20 OGL is that it allows small publishers to take on projects with a profit margin that is too small for WotC, so perhaps WotC is getting ready to publish a Dark Sun book for a licencee, which makes sense when you look at the pattern:

*Ravenloft's offical fan website get a conversion done, sold to SS.

*Dragonlance's original author's get their fan website up and going as the offical website, their company gets the DL licence. 

*The offical fan Website of Darksun is finally getting near their time  to present their 3e rules. Hmmm.


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## Nightfall (Feb 5, 2003)

Not to mention the fact they sold Gamma world too. And WotC has sold some of the rights to their Warcraft stuff to S&SS.


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## Alzrius (Feb 5, 2003)

*sings* Do you believe The Dragon, and I hope you do...

Ahem. Sorry. Anyway, I just want to say that I'm really jazzed about this news. I've been hearing "under the table" rumors from people I talked to at some cons about whether or not Dark Sun could come back, and Im extremely pleased to see that it may very well be! It was, other than Ravenloft, my favorite setting.

About the poll, its interesting that they may be doing 3.5E psionics. If so however, I hope they make up their minds to do so soon. I'd prefer to buy all the 3.5E books at once and have that be that. I don't want to keep buying 3.5E revisions of other books every few months. One revision, all at once, is enough.

I'm not going to comment on how I would like to see psionics revised, since I did that at the poll, save to say that I can only guess that their sudden reversal on not revising psionics can only come from a very loud cry from the fans. Its good to know (or at least presume) that a collectively loud voice is still heard.

All that said, I'm curious about how Dark Sun will be presented in a new incarnation. Mostly:

- Will everyone still have wild talents (or some psionic power thereof)? Or will the massive prevalence of psionics be scaled back so only psionicists actually have that power?

- Will they make it so that Psionics Are Different, not like their default rules in the PsiHB?

- Will they take into account the current official materials presented at Athas.org, referencing them and using some of the things presented there? Or will it invalidate the items there, and force them to be taken down?

Still, I'm sure if will be great however its done, since anything is better than nothing. Thanks for the news The Dragon! All hail Borys of Eb-*goes back and reads the revised boxed set for 2E Dark Sun* er, all hail Lord Dregoth!


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## Mark (Feb 5, 2003)

At first I thought, "This is some sort of troll."  The I read on and MoRuss chimed in and I thought, "MoRuss must know something and certainly wouldn't participate in a troll."  Then I decided to try and work through this logically.  So let me get this straight...

They've spent a great many hours going through 11,000 entries to find, and give prize money to, a person who has a new campaign setting that appeals to a portion of their market.  In fact, they feel that the popularity of this search (and perhaps have figures that the many entrants support this) shows that a psionics-heavy setting is what everyone is clammering to buy?  Mind you, I do not recall a plethora of the ones revealed here (or elsewhere) being psionics-oriented, but let's say that all of the ones not revealed were psionics oriented.

Regarding older settings, they purposefuly kept only two; Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms, the two most popular.  They felt that they did not have the manpower to develop setting material that would appeal to a smaller segment of the market.  Let's not forget that this was back in the day when they had quite a few more employees to throw at their projects and Hasbro wasn't looking over their shoulder at the bottom line.  So they decided (and cleared this with Hasbro) that they would search the fan base for a setting.  The prevailing wisdom, as I understood it, was not that they were going to be looking for something very different and new.  I had thought they they were looking for something along the lines of FR...but not FR.  Something that would be widely popular and reap high profits.  Something "crunch-heavy" because we all know from SKR's mythical scenario that the people in charge wanted to gear things toward crunch.

Of the older, undeveloped settings that they tried to license out, all but a few are gone.  The ones that are now being developed outside of WotC are assumably the ones that people have clammored to see.  These were the ones that some folks have felt they would risk their money to develop as outside companies.  How many of these were psionics-heavy?  Is this an indication of how popular a psionics-heavy setting might be?

How many other ways does WotC have to figure out how popular psionics might be?  They could check the message boards.  (I've seen threads here on psionics that have some of the best and brightest of psionics game adherents but they seem to be in a relative minority, aren't they?)  They could look to which of the older settings that they chosen not to develop, that also were not the ones that people were stepping up to risk money to purchase, and determine if any of these that were psionics-heavy settings and still had some merit to develop in-house.  (How many older settings were psionics-heavy that weren't licensed out?)  They can look to how third party publishers are selling.  (How many third party settings are psionics-heavy?)  They can look at how prevalent the wish for use of psionics is among the RPGA which is a fairly large group of gamers.  (How many psionics-heavy Living settings are out there?)  They can look at how well the numbers are on sales of the Psionics Handbook.  (What were the print run numbers of the Psionics Handbook?)

I grant you that if a second printing of the Psionics Handbook is warranted it certainly makes more sense to include any errata that they may have _and_ add new sections that they either left out of the first or that is new and supports the revised core books.  They'd have to do this or they'd be printing up a slew of books that not many people would purchase, and I say this meaning that most would not re-purchase a book that contained little more than a bit or errata.

According to the information being proffered in this thread at least some of that research has suggested that not only one, but two settings should be developed in-house at WotC? ...with their ever-shrinking manpower and resources?

I'm a bit skeptical.  If anyone can address the questions I have and give me some solid reasoning why this makes sesne, I would appreciate the insight.


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## Kesh (Feb 5, 2003)

Maybe this is a crazy idea but...

What if _Dark Sun 3_ *is* the revised _Psionics HB_?

Think about it. They could roll all the revised rules right into the book with the new setting material. That might alleviate some of the concerns people have about repurchasing the rules. (Though it creates another problem for those who don't care about DS.  )


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## Alzrius (Feb 5, 2003)

Kesh said:
			
		

> *Maybe this is a crazy idea but...
> 
> What if Dark Sun 3 is the revised Psionics HB?
> 
> Think about it.*




My thought is: cool, but highly unlikely, for several reasons.

1) A revision of a book is just supposed to clean up messy things and clarify definitions. Adding setting flavor would be too much.

2) Given the amount of stuff people think could/should be added to a revised PsiHB, there just wouldn't be enough room to do the campaign justice.

3) It would scare off everyone who just wanted psionics but not a new setting.

4) Thats not a financially-sound plan for WotC. Why have people buying one book (a hybrid PsiHB/DSCS) when they could buy two (PsiHB 3.5E and the DSCS).

Anyone else want to continue this list?


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## Spatula (Feb 5, 2003)

I don't think they'll be developing two settings from scratch in-house, Athas.org has been the (fan-run) home of the official 3E Dark Sun conversion for some time now.  If WOTC does intend to publish a DS book, they will probably just take what athas.org has produced and tweak it.


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## Sir Osis of Liver (Feb 5, 2003)

Well, i'm gonna keep my fingers crossed and hope this is true. Psionics deserve more love.


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## ascendance (Feb 5, 2003)

Umm, didn't AEG or White Wolf license Dark Sun a while back?  However, dropping a short setting into the Psionics Handbook, and letting a third party do the real support, like with Rokugan D20, might work for them.


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## rounser (Feb 5, 2003)

> If anyone can address the questions I have and give me some solid reasoning why this makes sesne, I would appreciate the insight.



Can't do that, but I can speculate. 

Theory:
Winning setting uses psionics a lot.  Wizards realises that new setting alone won't sell quite enough Psi Handbooks if they did a big print run of them alongside it....and that the requirement to buy the Psi Handbook may drive off some buyers.

Wizards thinks:
Well, not everyone's going to shell out for this setting alone and a psi handbook....so, if we re-release Dark Sun, _another setting which requires psionics_, we can count on everyone buying either one or other of the settings, _and_ getting a Psi Handbook sale from each of them in the bargain.  Then they're set up to buy the other setting!  Marketing synergy!  The Dark Sunners may well buy the New Setting too.

Result:
Wizards effectively sells a setting, and a fourth rulebook to everyone who wants to use either setting, and those who've bought the psi handbook and one of the settings will be more inclined to buy the other, because now they own the psi handbook that's required to use it.


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## WanderingMonster (Feb 5, 2003)

Mark said:
			
		

> *At first I thought, "This is some sort of troll."  The I read on and MoRuss chimed in and I thought, "MoRuss must know something and certainly wouldn't participate in a troll."  Then I decided to try and work through this logically.  So let me get this straight...
> 
> ...MY EDIT...
> 
> I'm a bit skeptical.  If anyone can address the questions I have and give me some solid reasoning why this makes sesne, I would appreciate the insight. *




Mark?  You're supposed to be the lighthearted, witty, optimistic one!  And now your rose-colored glasses are half-empty?

Sure this might just be internet rumour, I'll grant you that.  Would it help if we called it Unofficial News?  

And yes, I realize that this post lacks solid reasoning and/or insight.   But it has riboflavin and retsyn!


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## Morrus (Feb 5, 2003)

Bear in mind, folks, that nobody has said that WotC WILL be reviving Dark Sun, or that they WILL be producing a PsiHB 3.5.  The recent poll was an information-gathering exercise.

As for the allegedly Psi-heavy nature of the new setting - yeah, that's what I've heard.


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## WanderingMonster (Feb 5, 2003)

rounser said:
			
		

> *
> Result:
> Wizards effectively sells a setting, and a fourth rulebook to everyone who wants to use either setting, and those who've bought the psi handbook and one of the settings will be more inclined to buy the other, because now they own the psi handbook that's required to use it. *




A conspiracy theory!  I love it.  This *IS* the internet!


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## Mark (Feb 5, 2003)

WanderingMonster said:
			
		

> *Mark?  You're supposed to be the lighthearted, witty, optimistic one!  And now your rose-colored glasses are half-empty? *




There's a difference between rose-colored glasses and a rose-colored blindfold. 



			
				WanderingMonster said:
			
		

> *Sure this might just be internet rumour, I'll grant you that.  Would it help if we called it Unofficial News?  *




heh Call it what you will.  I fail to see the wisdom in what is being suggested, whether it is rumor or news, official or un. 



			
				WanderingMonster said:
			
		

> *And yes, I realize that this post lacks solid reasoning and/or insight.   But it has riboflavin and retsyn! *




Yum.


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## Mark (Feb 5, 2003)

rounser said:
			
		

> *Can't do that, but I can speculate.
> -snip-
> Wizards effectively sells a setting, and a fourth rulebook to everyone who wants to use either setting, and those who've bought the psi handbook and one of the settings will be more inclined to buy the other, because now they own the psi handbook that's required to use it. *




This would be a serious shift in their marketting strategy which up to now has been to either put out material supporting only their two main settings, material for one-off settings, or material that is only one step removed from their core books.

Not saying they won't change their strategy, mind you, or that psionics couldn't use some more material.  I am saying that it would be a switch, that it would be to a niche of the market, and that it is unlikely to be very profitable.


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## EarthsShadow (Feb 5, 2003)

Bring them on, I love psionics in my games.  DS was one of my personal favorite games but it was hard to find players that apprecited the world for the way it is.


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## MerricB (Feb 5, 2003)

I think the "main book for the setting" release but little else from Wizards is a very strong possibility. I don't like Dark Sun. Never have. Ditto Planescape.

But if they release them as Fantasy Setting Books for D&D, then let other people license out the ability to create adventure/supplements: then things are great. I'm very happy for all of you who do like those things.

Cheers!


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## Graf (Feb 5, 2003)

WotC might as well do the same thing they did with Dark Sun as they've done with OA/Rokugan, Dragonlance, etc.
They definitely won't be supporting the setting after one book though. Look at Greyhawk....

Having said that DS was cool -- hopefully their licensee will be good. It's good that WotC is mining their old intellectual properties better;  there's  a lot of stuff that would shine with a new coat of paint.

The odds of there being a new psionic book is 95-98%. 
1. It's probably one of the most popular supplements (certainly more than say the MotP or the BoVD). There's a big fan-base of people who use psionics in otheir games and even larger segment of people who would buy the book out of interest.

2. While very good overall psionics could use a lot of tweaking. The author of the book (Bruce Cordel) has already released a significantly altered psion progression system & prestige classes in If Thoughts Could Kill (plus the two more books he's slated to produce soon). Furthermore it's been the subject  of several dragon magazine articles with new feats which have a big impact on how the system functions.

3. Parts of it are loathed (i.e. Psionic combat). You could probably remove the psionic combat an replace it with a system involving canned tuna (or collectable rocks) and people would line up to buy it.

Just collecting the published stuff on the net, adding the new feats and the IFCK psion rules (which are OGL) would produce a new, much better book, without much effort. Add in some playtesting feedback and you're done.

The only thing I'm curious about is BC's Mindscapes books (which should be out soon). If those are so good that they become "default" WotC might face a bit of a fractured market. (I'd be pleased if they just turned around and re-incorperated everything good from those books into the SRD but that's unlikely I suppose).


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## rounser (Feb 5, 2003)

> A conspiracy theory! I love it. This IS the internet!



Indeed it IS, baby.   The internet, that is.  But...marketing strategy theory = conspiracy theory?  

Must have missed the memo...


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## Mark (Feb 5, 2003)

Graf said:
			
		

> *The odds of there being a new psionic book is 95-98%.
> 1. It's probably one of the most popular supplements (certainly more than say the MotP or the BoVD). There's a big fan-base of people who use psionics in otheir games and even larger segment of people who would buy the book out of interest.*




What are you basing this on?


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## rounser (Feb 5, 2003)

> I am saying that it would be a switch, that it would be to a niche of the market, and that it is unlikely to be very profitable.



Well, yeah.  But the existence of the survey and the rumour seem to suggest they're considering it.  Maybe the Psionics Handbook did a lot better than we might think.


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## Mark (Feb 5, 2003)

rounser said:
			
		

> *Well, yeah.  But the existence of the survey and the rumour seem to suggest they're considering it.  Maybe the Psionics Handbook did a lot better than we might think. *




I'd love to see some numbers.  Can you tell me more about the survey?  Are we talking about the online survey that they ran half a year ago, or so?

It'd be interesting if one of the expatriated WotC people could drop a print run number on us for the PsiHB...


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## rounser (Feb 5, 2003)

Survey happened in the last day and a half or so, then it mysteriously disappeared with a silent wail.  See this thread:
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?threadid=39832


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## Mark (Feb 5, 2003)

rounser said:
			
		

> *Survey happened in the last day and a half or so, then it mysteriously disappeared with a silent wail.  See this thread:
> http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?threadid=39832 *




Thanks rounser.  I completely missed that thread and the survey.  I wonder how a survey does when it is run that briefly.  I imagine that when a survey keys on one topic, those interested in that topic spread the word fairly quickly among other like-minded people and make up the majority of respondants.  I rarely click early on threads regarding psionics (since I have little input to give) and usually catch up with them after the main or majority folks have had their say.  This generally gives me both sides of the reasoning and various schools of thought on a given topic or sub-topic.  Even then, I tend to keep my mouth shut on such things.  Odd that they pulled the survey so quickly.


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## rounser (Feb 5, 2003)

> I imagine that when a survey keys on one topic, those interested in that topic spread the word fairly quickly among other like-minded people and make up the majority of respondants.



Exactly...but then again, maybe they were the people they were trying to get information from.  The first question may have been a bit of a furphy.  If you want to know how the psionics enthusiasts like their psionics served, then get several thousand psionics enthusiasts to respond in quick succession, and mission accomplished.


----------



## Frostmarrow (Feb 5, 2003)

I think it's sad that they blow all their powder on campaign settings. What about mega-modules and adventure-series? That's what I want. I know, I know that modules doesn't sell as much as sourcebooks but it's the modules that keep us together. Sourcebooks diversifies the audience. I never use psionics but you do so we have nothing to talk about. However, we've both played through RtTToEE and that module never seizes to be an interesting topic. Do you see what I mean? I want more mega-modules. In fact I'm going to pick up Banewarrens just to support the idea.


----------



## Azure Trance (Feb 5, 2003)

Swank. I wouldn't mind collecting a new campaign setting like DS at all ...


----------



## Horacio (Feb 5, 2003)

I hope those rumors are true, I really do!


----------



## rounser (Feb 5, 2003)

> I think it's sad that they blow all their powder on campaign settings. What about mega-modules and adventure-series? That's what I want. I know, I know that modules doesn't sell as much as sourcebooks but it's the modules that keep us together. Sourcebooks diversifies the audience. I never use psionics but you do so we have nothing to talk about. However, we've both played through RtTToEE and that module never seizes to be an interesting topic. Do you see what I mean? I want more mega-modules. In fact I'm going to pick up Banewarrens just to support the idea.



WotC seems too constrained by margins to do that sort of thing these days.  It's up to the smaller publishers to provide the sort of infrastructure you refer to...Banewarrens, sure...Dungeon Magazine Adventure Path might be another good place to look.


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone (Feb 5, 2003)

*Checks thread.  Shakes head*

*Hopes the new setting will have something to recommend it besides psionics.*

_Psionics, ptui!_


I for one will not be purchasing products that are based heavily on psionics (my own personal bias).  I don't mind if it's a small part of the setting that can be excised with little impact, but if it is a major part, like it was in Dark Sun, forget it.

Not that Dark Sun didn't have a lot of flavor, mind you, but there's a reason vanilla is the most popular flavor.


----------



## Taren Nighteyes (Feb 5, 2003)

*Great!*

Campaign settings like Dark Sun are unique and have a flavor to them that sets them apart from the pack.

Ravenloft and Planescape are like this as well.

Although I use the FR campaign world when I DM, I love to play in Dark Sun.  A revised Psionics Handbook would be nice as well.

Excellent news!

Taren Nighteyes


----------



## Ashrem Bayle (Feb 5, 2003)

*COOL!*

I've been itching to talk about this every since I heard about it. Thanks Dragon! I for one am very happy about all this.

Look at it from Wizard's point of view. This is what I would do...

1. Athas.org does all the heavy lifting for DS. They work out the systems and playtest the info. Wizard's (who already owns the license and knows there is a built in fanbase) gets the info from Athas.org and works a little mojo on it.

2. The print the core setting book for DS with a tiny dusting of psionics thrown in. Look at d20 Modern for an example. Like any good drug dealer, they get you get hooked from that little sample.

3. The new campaign setting comes out around the same time with the same tiny bit of psionics info (30 pages?) cut-n-pasted from the Dark Sun book.

4. Now that everyone is hooked, they release a new psionics handbook. The new book has two "sample settings" in it. Both "sample settings" are just tiny samples of the new setting and Dark Sun.

So...

Anyone who buys either of the new settings, both of which where mostly developed outside of Wizards, will have a functioning set of psionics rules, but will probably have a desire for more. They will look to the new psionics book for this.

Anyone who buys just the psionics book will get a taste of both of the new settings and would likely buy at least one of them.

The new psionics book goes to the SRD, so anyone who has the original book isn't *forced* to update.

Everybody wins. Wizards gets more fans hooked on their new settings and psionics. We get more good psionic treats.

For those of you who don't like psionics..... *shrugs*......sorry.


----------



## Katerek (Feb 5, 2003)

Hmmmm....yawn.

Like others, I hope that the new setting has more to it than the gimmick of Psionics.

Psionics have historically been a broken rules set.  

Dark Sun didn't do all that well.  

Now there is a new setting with alot of Psionics.  I hope it is REALLY different.  I really want this to succeed, but at first glance I have my doubts.


----------



## Chun-tzu (Feb 5, 2003)

There's another good reason for Wizards to revise the psionics system. Didn't they say we'd be seeing supplements for D20 Modern that cover sci-fi/future settings? In most of those settings, we'd expect little to no magic at all, but psionics might take its place.

From what I've heard (mostly from posters on these boards), the Psi Handbook has been one of Wizards' most popular supplements, but there are also many complaints about various aspects of the system. Many of the complaints are reasonable, too! If you're going to have so many new books relying on the PsiHB (new setting, Dark Sun, D20 Future), you're going to want a pretty solid system in place.


----------



## Gez (Feb 5, 2003)

You know, despite Morrus' belief, I'm highly skeptical about this whole thread.

But I just wanted to say, re: the survey, that if they did revise the current psionic system and change it wholly (to skill & feat or anything else than what it is actually), I would be massively upset.

As they are now, psionics are nice. A little underpowered overall, but OK.


----------



## Voneth (Feb 5, 2003)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> **Checks thread.  Shakes head*
> 
> Psionics, ptui! *




okaaay.
How about "alternate rules system for magic"  

I am not getting into a whole "genre" thing, but game wise, a lot of mechanics can get a name change for flavor and everything is okay. 

I got a similar problem right now. I am running a Farscape game (with a psionic flavored characters) with MnM rules (which are marketed as a super hero rpg.) I have one player (out of 5 total) who can't seem to get his head around the idea that while the rules support 4-color supers, my setting is not a super hero setting.

On the other hand, Monte's new "alternate PHB" is offering a psionic class that works off his version of the spell slot system to the point it doesn't even used psionic points.


----------



## Deadguy (Feb 5, 2003)

I think I have to agree, at first blush, with those who've said they hope the setting has no more than a spin on psionics. I am afriad that I am one of those who feel that _without_ a huge reworking of the magic system, psionics lacks a real place in D&D.

Of course, one thought that does cross my mind about that survey... how would WotC feel if, after polling a fair few people, the mood is _against_ psionics. Their new setting would then need rather more work than they'd allowed for...
I love consipracy thinking!


----------



## Eridanis (Feb 5, 2003)

Kesh beat me to it, but publishing a new Psionics HB with Dark Sun setting info makes perfect sense. It could incorporate changes (like some of Bruce Cordell's Malhavoc work, and the Mind's Eye material), and also show a setting in which to use those new toys. It would bring the PsiHB's physical size into line with FRCS and ELH. (Remember, a good quarter of the ELH is dedicated to an illustrative setting of the new rules: Union.)

Then, ithe new fan-created setting could use the new Psi Rules - but wouldn;t have to dwell on them, but could move on to all the things you need for a setting book.

2004 will be a busy year for WotC, it seems.


----------



## Zarrock God of Evil (Feb 5, 2003)

I will also be holding my breath for this one. Some on the board already discussed the possibility for a Revised Psionics Handbook some 3 weeks ago in my thread: http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36817 

Now that it seems it may become reality anyway, I'm extremely excited - I'd love to see psionics gain a more permanent place in DnD  

-Zarrock


----------



## Orias (Feb 5, 2003)

BRING BACK DARK SUN!


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## Kid Charlemagne (Feb 5, 2003)

Morrus said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Would it help if I were to say that I believe The Dragon? *




Let me add that I'm pretty certain I know who The Dragon is, and if that is the case, his/her/its credibility is quite high in my book.  Although I don't know the source, so don't try to get it out of me!


----------



## Galfridus (Feb 5, 2003)

I don't know if this rumor is true, but I hope it is!

I love psionics, but it seems pretty clear to me that the implications of the psionics rules were not all understood when the PsiHB was printed. Psionic combat is ineffectual (except for Mind Blast, which is campaign-altering in its power) and should probably just be dropped. The lack of scalability of powers causes serious weakness issues, and the power selection makes some psi classes very difficult to play effectively. 

At the same time, I think moving to a skill or feat-based system is too much change -- at that point, you might as well create a new system rather than try to replace what's already out there. 

I would love to see a 3.5 PsiHB that ditches psionic combat and adopts many of the ITCK changes (power chains, upscaling, revised # of powers and power points). On a smaller scale, fixing things like the difficulty of making psi powers invisible (not really practical at present), the unnecessary mirroring of arcane magic items (tattoos, power stones, dorjes), and the goofiness of some items (those skins!) would be nice too.


----------



## Trance (Feb 5, 2003)

In response to the original post 

Hmmmm, so you have had a person tell you this. Hmmmm kind of makes me wonder. There is a leak out there.  

1) Maybe

2) I doubt it.


----------



## Conaill (Feb 5, 2003)

Didn't WotC state months ago that they would be putting out a new setting on a fairly regular basis? Every one or two years, I believe.



> _Originally posted by Voneth_
> *Wotc said the main problem with what TSR did was to set up so many settings and then try support them all. [...] I also remember hearing that WotC has a new policy, if someone buys a licence from them, WotC gets to publish the core setting book and the licencee get the supplements and adventures.*




Note that this fits _entirely_ with WotC's strategy regarding d20 and the OGL: get thrid party publishers to supply the support, meanwhile they get to profit from the increased interest and user community by selling the core books.

In terms of new settings, that would mean they'll be publishing the "core" setting book, but leave further supplements and adventures to d20. If anything, I'm somewhat surprised they deviated from that with FR: they could easily have left the "Magic of" and "Races of" books to the d20 publishers, and just reaped the rewards from the best-selling FR book: the FRCS itself.


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## Left-handed Hummingbird (Feb 5, 2003)

WotC just thinking about bringing back Dark Sun is enough to get me excited. I hope they keep Brom's artwork... *Oh Mama!* 

And I hope they use the non-revised original box setting as their starting point. Whatever they do, somebody is bound to be upset with the changes, but I do hope they stay as close to the original feel and idea of the first box set.


----------



## Shard O'Glase (Feb 5, 2003)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Let me add that I'm pretty certain I know who The Dragon is, and if that is the case, his/her/its credibility is quite high in my book.  Although I don't know the source, so don't try to get it out of me! *




It might interest people to know that I have a source that told me that Morrus, Kid Chalemagne and the Dragon are all the same person.  I could reveal my source but then I'd have to kill you.


----------



## Shard O'Glase (Feb 5, 2003)

1. new setting, psionics is a plus to me I'll udge the rest when I see it.

2. revised psionics well it needs a revision so good.

3. darksun: setting wise I like the original darksun before it got all sisyfied and the good guys pretty much won the revolution in almost every city state.  Don't know if the fan seting people have fixed that or not, but by the time dark sun came out the second time I felt the setting was much worse than the original.


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Feb 5, 2003)

YAHOO!

Revised Psionics, here I come.

PS I would buy the book for the revised psionics, even if I didn't care for the setting. The setting isn't the selling point - it's the psionics.


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## ColonelHardisson (Feb 5, 2003)

Mark, I think there is a very fine, but very important point raised by your initial post in this thread. I don't think this potential setting is something that the fans were necessarily clamoring for, but rather is what WotC hopes that fans _will_ be clamoring for. I don't know how much of a factor market research was in the selection process, but I think that WotC might have "gone with its gut" on this, rather than choosing it as a response to what they know the fans want. If this is so, it may be they realize that trying to catch lightning in a bottle again involves more than hedging one's bets by checking polls and past sales figures.

I'm more or less neutral, by the way, about psionics, so this scoop doesn't really get much of a response from me one way or the other.

And I'm surprised nobody ever registered The Dragon before now...


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## tleilaxu (Feb 5, 2003)

if they are revising psionics i wonder what role the improvements cordell made in "if thoughts could kill" will play. i assume there will be some sort of copyright issue between SSS/Malhavoc and WOTC if they want to use the changes there. Cordell is also coming out with mindscapes in the next few months, which for me is 3.5 psionics anyway. So unless I hear more about what form 3.5 psionics take and whether Cordell will be working on it, I'm more interested in the malhavoc stuff anyway.


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## Henry (Feb 5, 2003)

Mark said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I'd love to see some numbers.  Can you tell me more about the survey?  Are we talking about the online survey that they ran half a year ago, or so?
> 
> It'd be interesting if one of the expatriated WotC people could drop a print run number on us for the PsiHB... *




This is anecdotal evidence, from a Wotc Employee sometime on Eric Noah's boards about the middle of 2001, (I want to say Anthony Valterra, but I couldbe wrong), so take it for what it's worth...

I do remember in a thread talking about higher-level WotC executives and print-run numbers, someone from WotC mentioned that the Psionics Handbook received 50,000 pre-orders, and an executive who knew nothing about the PRG industry asked why they were going ahead with the book in the face of such low pre-order numbers... 

So, if this is accurate, and the book had at least 50,000 sales, then the demand for that hardback was pretty large by PRG sales. If it were ANYONE but WotC, a number like that would have them jumping for joy. Kenzer's Hackmaster Player's Handbook has sold at least 25,000 copies, according to a Kenzerco Rep on their boards (David, I believe), and that was considered a good sell-through...


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## Duganson (Feb 5, 2003)

Psi handbook 3.5 seems prudent, but I am of the mind that it should be cheaper than the original.

DARK SUN IS RAD! 

...ok, I'm good.


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## nikolai (Feb 5, 2003)

I never really looked that hard at Dark Sun, so I don't have that deep an understanding of the ideas behind it. I do like the idea of a "semi-tropical" campaign world with great deserts and forests though - a more Conan-esque sort of thing. I don't think we need another "quasi-medieval Europe" setting like Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms and DragonLance - which I don't think would add anything much to the options we've got now.

As for psionics, I've got the handbook and have never really used it. It just doesn't seem to fit very well into the rest of the system or my campaign. I'd be very relucant to buy anything else psionics based. 

On the other hand I think I really could use a 3e Tome of Magic.

nikolai.


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## shadow (Feb 5, 2003)

Yes! Yes! Yes! Bring back Dark Sun!  Long Live Psionics!


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## Trance (Feb 5, 2003)

done


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## Ashrem Bayle (Feb 5, 2003)

hehe Don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel.


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## Corinth (Feb 5, 2003)

No, he's a spy.  

(begin Uber-l33t Spy Communique)
Do not go to the G4 studios, for they are silly and Wil Wheaton cursed the place upon his departure.  Fnord.
(end communique)


----------



## Trance (Feb 5, 2003)

none


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## Neo (Feb 5, 2003)

I have to say 

I did wonder myself, why anyone just giving an honest to goodness scoop would feel the need to do so under an alias, unless they knew they were doing wrong by giving up the scoop.

How would posting as yourself endanger your source? unless

a) you are your source
OR
b) your source should never have told you anything about anything

Whatever happened to NDA's?


----------



## Simplicity (Feb 5, 2003)

Trance said:
			
		

> *To “the Dragon”
> 
> What gives you the right to disclose information like this? You are nothing more then a luker. a leak, and a mole. According to your post, you were trust with information, and you decided to leak it out. You have betrayed their trust. That is unforgivable. I hope you are happy with your self. If you feel like you are offering up an honest scoop would do you feel the need to do so under an alias, UNLESS you knew you were doing something wrong. Also if you feel like you have done nothing wrong, then reveal your true name.
> 
> *




My, aren't you a negative Nancy.  He said that he was protecting his sources.  If the info was leaked to him from within a company, then he certainly has no legal obligation to keep that info secret.  He isn't a leak.  His source is.  

Anyways, this is hardly classified material we're talking about here.  It's rumors about a GAME expansion.  Forwarding such
information hardly makes him worthy of contempt.  

Get serious.


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## Yuan-Ti (Feb 5, 2003)

EarthsShadow said:
			
		

> *Bring them on, I love psionics in my games.  DS was one of my personal favorite games but it was hard to find players that apprecited the world for the way it is. *




DarkSun will sell, the new setting will sell, and that means more psionics rulebooks, splatbooks, prestige class books, plush dolls, keychains, barfbags, etc., will sell. It will be good for WotC. 

I, personally, have long had a strong dislike for psionics because the rules have never satisfied me. Being told by even people who love psionics that the 3e rules are messed up has not encouraged me. As a result, I will not buy Dark Sun and I will not buy the new setting, unless someone proves to me that it is fascinating reading, plundering, etc., aside from the psionics madness. 

In a way, though a psionics-heavy setting is very much like FR, so I am not too surprised WotC went for that. 

Btw, I have to ask as well -- didn't someone actually get the rights to do Dark Sun?


----------



## Taren Nighteyes (Feb 5, 2003)

Trance:  Leaking information to the public is part of the game.

Nearly every organization designs or expects "leaks".  How many times have you read "speaking on the condition of Edit: "anonymity"(sp??), or "sources close to the situation", or a "high level official"...etc.  

Why leak info??  It generates excitement, buzz, or interest.  It is a cheap way to advertise or make the general public aware of what is coming down the pipe.  It also illicits feedback...general public opinion....before an official announcement - which means they can kill the idea or modify it, if the public out cry is larger than expected....

So quit whining and trying to get the "source" to reveal himself.  "The Dragon" may even have "permission" to leak the information, so until a wizards official sends out a nastio-gram about "leaks" and breach of contracts, assume that the leaked information isn't hurting anyone and is probably expected.

Taren Nighteyes

Edit:  just checked your spelling.    Dinkeldog


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## JeffB (Feb 5, 2003)

UGH...

Assuming this is all true...

My enthusiasm to see the new setting just went from Very High to Very Low...I don't hate psionics per se, I just hate all the extra complication(regardless of version)...3E is bad enough for tons of rules as it is...

I'm glad for the Dark Sun fans, though I did not care much for it personally...I would have thought Planescape would have had a better chance of being ressurected and would have been my #1 choice..well other than a Greyhawk Hardback, that is...I'll continue to hope and wish! 

I'd take a look at a revised Psionics book, but the current one was unimpressive, IMO.. I would much prefer a system similar to Rolemaster or Palladium where Psionics are basically spell lists that are "psionic flavored"...or even similar to the Force in SW-D20


----------



## Trance (Feb 5, 2003)

none


----------



## FabioMilitoPagliara (Feb 5, 2003)

The Dragon said:
			
		

> The third bit of new news, was that Wizards is seriously considering a revision for the psionics book. Oddly enough though, I had been told earlier that this wasn't the case. I suppose things change.
> 
> With two new psionics heavy settings in the works, and the fact that the original psionics book sold really well [despite many gleaming errors], I'm betting we will see a Psionics Handbook 3.5 [/B]




what I would like for psionic is a system similar to the sorcerer

powers should be more "psionical" but the sorcerer system should work well

I would let this psi to Meta-Psi his power on the fly (big difference from the sorcerer)

I would get rid of psi points

--
regards, fabio


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## Kevin O'Reilly (Feb 5, 2003)

*Sleeping Imperium*

I wonder.....

Timing seems about right. It was psi. And it was a great setting.

Ken???????


----------



## Apok (Feb 6, 2003)

Dark Sun to come to 3e?!

FINALLY!! 

At long last, I shall be vindicated!!

MUAHAHAHAHA!!!


----------



## Trance (Feb 6, 2003)

hmmmmm,


----------



## rounser (Feb 6, 2003)

> Why leak info?? It generates excitement, buzz, or interest. It is a cheap way to advertise or make the general public aware of what is coming down the pipe. It also illicits feedback...general public opinion....before an official announcement - which means they can kill the idea or modify it, if the public out cry is larger than expected....



Yup, we're doing their advertising for them.  Even the whinges just increase the profile of the product in people's minds. 

I'd add that the only thing which made Dark Sun so great were the adventures.  If WotC pulls another "do the core book and abandon it" trick on the setting, then there will be little point in buying it, IMO.  They may well do that.

If it turns out like that, I suggest forgetting these backless maiden products and buying the Dungeon Magazine Adventure Path instead.  That way you get a full campaign, plus an implied setting which you can develop further according to your whims.

My 2 cents...


----------



## BrooklynKnight (Feb 6, 2003)

*eats his sushi*


----------



## TheAuldGrump (Feb 6, 2003)

Hmmm, given that EVERYONE in Dark Sun has Psionics it would make sense to have it be feat based in that world.

Even though I don't play Dark Sun I hope someones does/has picked it up, it seems to be a setting that I keep hearing wishes for.

I will admit however that I tend to view magic and psionics as an either/or situation. I may run a Psi based game someday, but if so it won't have standard magic. (Just a personal taste, no reason other people can't do things differently.)

As for Psionics 3.5, maybe this time they'll include treasure tables with psi items...

The Auld Grump


----------



## zorlag (Feb 6, 2003)

Taren Nighteyes said:
			
		

> *Trance:  Leaking information to the public is part of the game.
> 
> Nearly every organization designs or expects "leaks".  How many times have you read "speaking on the condition of anomoninity"(sp??), or "sources close to the situation", or a "high level official"...etc.
> 
> ...




Person participating in development or playtesting that material usually signs NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement) or something similar in electronic form. And that shouldn't be broken, there is no excuse whatsoever. Sometimes company leaks information just to advertise, but this is done with concent of the people who are responsible for it. If player/playtester does this by himself, he has broken the agreement and doesn't deserve to be a player/playtester. So if you participate on anything like this, remember that all information is considered secret until company makes official announcement about it.

Z.


----------



## Graf (Feb 6, 2003)

*[ot]*



			
				Frostmarrow said:
			
		

> *In fact I'm going to pick up Banewarrens just to support the idea. *




I don't think you will be disappointed. The Banewarrens is definitely a worthly adventure. It has structure so you can take things in and out without it collapsing.....


----------



## Neo (Feb 6, 2003)

zorlag said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Person participating in development or playtesting that material usually signs NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement) or something similar in electronic form. And that shouldn't be broken, there is no excuse whatsoever. Sometimes company leaks information just to advertise, but this is done with concent of the people who are responsible for it. If player/playtester does this by himself, he has broken the agreement and doesn't deserve to be a player/playtester. So if you participate on anything like this, remember that all information is considered secret until company makes official announcement about it.
> 
> Z. *




An NDA isn't just a verbal agreement not to release details it's a legally binding contract "not to".  Breaking such a thing birng s all sorts of possible complications, such as all playtesting being done in house from then on, projects being cancelled, people being sued....

As much as people may feel the need to "share" they information they are given while playtesting, its also expected that those in that position can show a bit of self restraint.

If Dark Sun or Psionics 3.5 or whatever doesn't get released because of this leak, i for one will be seriously unimpressed.


----------



## FireLance (Feb 6, 2003)

Just to add fuel to the fire of Completely Wild Speculation:

[wild speculation]
I seem to recall most of the final few setting search proposals dealt with "Golden Age" scenarios.  Wouldn't it be interesting if the "new" setting was actually (or was set up so that it could be) Athas during the Blue or Green Age?  Even more reason for fans to pick up *both* settings!
[/wild speculation]

As for the other issues: Yay to the return of Dark Sun and Epic level transformational prestige classes!  Wonder what would be the pre-requisites for the Avangion PrC?

Yay to the revision of Psionics especially if it acquires a flavour different from Arcane and Divine spellcasting and revises psionic combat so that it actually becomes useful instead of a liability!

As for the new setting, I'll just wait and see.


----------



## Ashrem Bayle (Feb 6, 2003)

I just hope that they don't use Athas.org info as is. They did some neat stuff, but I could think of a few things I'n like to see done differently.

And yes, the original box set had a better feel to it than the revised. I hope they keep the original's look and feel.

Come on Brom!


----------



## Taren Nighteyes (Feb 6, 2003)

Trance & NDA:

Yes, I have participated in play testing of a published product.

Yes, NDAs are binding and can result in all sorts of legal action should it be violated. (NO, I have not violated my NDAs)

Not once have I supported the breaking of a NDA.  In my original post, I said it was part of the game.  Meaning, certain individuals play the game of "leaking" or creating rumors about things coming down the pipe.

Are they bound by NDA's?  probably.  But are they asked/told/expected to throw little tidbits of information out there?  I would think so.  

If the person broke their NDA without any such expectation or permission, then I do not doubt Wizards MAY want to fix that "leak".  Then again, they may not care all that much.  It isn't that a trade secret was leaked....how to make coca cola or such....

They (WOTC) already own the Dark Sun license, and they may or may not produce the rumored product.  

Needless to say, unless WOTC lays the smack down or releases a statement condemming the leak, I see no reason to condem the individual myself.

Thanks,

Taren Nighteyes


----------



## Orias (Feb 6, 2003)

I personally dislike psionics in any other setting other than Dark Sun, I just feel it takes away from the mystique of magic if common players can use them.

The only thing I ever use my Psionics Handbook for is creating a very foriegn-feeling type of villian, & unless Dark Sun is published, I would not buy a 3.5 Psionics Handbook.

But here's to hoping that Wizards rereleases one of my favorite setting.


----------



## Simplicity (Feb 6, 2003)

Ashrem Bayle said:
			
		

> *I just hope that they don't use Athas.org info as is. They did some neat stuff, but I could think of a few things I'n like to see done differently.
> 
> And yes, the original box set had a better feel to it than the revised. I hope they keep the original's look and feel.
> 
> Come on Brom! *




Well, there's a difference between a professionally produced product and a fan created ruleset.  I'm hoping that if WotC 
were to do the book, they'd do some serious look & feel work and make sure the rules were good.

Otherwise, what's the point?


----------



## Dinkeldog (Feb 6, 2003)

Orias said:
			
		

> *I personally dislike psionics in any other setting other than Dark Sun, I just feel it takes away from the mystique of magic if common players can use them.
> 
> The only thing I ever use my Psionics Handbook for is creating a very foriegn-feeling type of villian, & unless Dark Sun is published, I would not buy a 3.5 Psionics Handbook.
> 
> But here's to hoping that Wizards rereleases my favorite setting. *




Just curious, but do you think that having clerics and druids takes away from the mystique of the divine?


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## Neo (Feb 6, 2003)

Taren Nighteyes said:
			
		

> *Trance & NDA:
> 
> Yes, I have participated in play testing of a published product.
> 
> ...




Taren 

If you have indeed playtested as you say you have, then I would think you would know better than to assume an NDA isn't binding... and certainly doesn't allow for disclusure of tidbits of information.  In fact in most cases the wording and subtext of them tends to specifically state just the contrary.

Non disclosure..means just that... it isn't a conditional thing.  It is down to the companies themselves to announce releases, or "hints" at what is coming down the line, not the playtesters.

Playtesters are there for one reason and one reason only, to "playtest" they are not the ad hoc PR machine for the relevant company.

And as I said before the fact that dragon felt it necessary to assume an alias before releasing this "leak" tells me he knew full well he was releasing info he shouldn't have been.

I just hope we as a community don't get stung by his poor actions by missing out on some releases we would for most par have really looked forward to.


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## Taren Nighteyes (Feb 6, 2003)

Neo:  If you read my post, it said that I know NDA's are binding and all sorts of legal action can result from breaking them.

I am just stating that OFTEN in this media centered world (including the internet) "leaks" are intentional and/or expected.

Am I suggesting that everyone go out and break their NDA's?  Nonsense.  I am saying that certain authorities within organizations make those decisions, and receive no penalty for doing so?  In fact, they have hyped/helped a products development or launch by providing those "tidbits".

Does this mean the average playertester should spout off all he/she knows? Of course not.   I never called "The Dragon" a playertester - I was responding to the post Trance had made regarding my involvement in NDA's.

So in closing, if you believe all NDA's should be followed and never broken, I am not arguing.  But I should think these boards would never have come about (or remain as popular) without some NDA breaking tidbits.  Which is only to the advantage of WOTC - this place a plethora of market research and market opinon.  Especially the opinion part - which I and you are entitled to.

Thanks,

Taren Nighteyes


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## johnnype (Feb 6, 2003)

Fact: the Psionics message board on the Wizards website gets more posts than either Oriental Adventures, Manual of the Planes, Dieties and Demigods or the Epic Level Handbook. This is even though the PsiHB has been out longer than all of the other books. 

I only point this out because I get the feeling that many think that the idea of psionics is a waste of time. To some, perhaps.

Then there are those who are dissapointed that this new setting might, MIGHT mind you, use psionics. I don't even know how to respond to this. All I can say is that you have a plethora of other published campaigns that do not. Do not get upset because they try to do something for those of us who do like psionics. As it is I can only think of 2 published (as in not PDF's) settings, Scarred Lands and Greyhawk, that use the system. Greyhawk doesn't even have supplements. The only way we know that it uses psionics is because it's assumed. The Scarred Lands only added it with the Relics and Rituals II supplement.

Look at it from WotC point of view. How could they possibly give us a a setting that was "the same but different" than anything not already in print? There have been a lot of suggestions and we've read many of the rejected proposals on these and other boards but in the end they HAD to go with something significantly different. Psionics, IMO, is a good start. 

I ask nay sayers not to begruge us our desire for any and all things psionic. Most nay sayers do not understand how frustrating it is to like something so much but never have the right rules to use it. It's like having the holy grail within reach but having arms that are too short to grasp it. 

Give us our day in the sun and maybe we'll shut up already. 

Thanks for putting up with my rant.


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## Taren Nighteyes (Feb 6, 2003)

*Question*

How does stating that Dark Sun or Psionics 3.5E or any other product is in the works get it killed?  If work is already begun - therefor money spent, why would they kill it?

Heck, the only reason I could see anyone killing anything is if it isn't profitable, profitable enough.  So if Dark Sun is being looked at and ends up not being produced, I would highly doubt it was the result of a "leak".

WOTC owns Dark Sun....it isn't like someone is going to go buy it now that they know WOTC is thinking or going to produce it.

And yes, this is my professional opinion as a Senior Financial Analyst for a company that I have signed a NDA agreement and can't buy or trade stock of said company outside of the stated rules of the "blackout" list.  (Nor can I tell anyone to buy or sell my company's stock, of course)

Taren Nighteyes


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## Knightfall (Feb 6, 2003)

Here's a thought...

What if the new campaign setting uses ONLY psionics.  No magic whatsoever... now THAT would be different.

Of course, this is just my twisted mind considering the possibilities.

Later,

KF72

p.s.  WotC... PLEASE, PLEASE , PLEASE bring back Dark Sun!!


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## Sagan Darkside (Feb 6, 2003)

Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> *What if the new campaign setting uses ONLY psionics.  No magic whatsoever... now THAT would be different.*




That is what my original idea was for the campiegn I am putting together, but my players rebelled. I had hoped the only magic would be from those evil elves. 

Oh well. 

SD


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## ssampier (Feb 6, 2003)

*Psionics Handbook required?*

If Dark Sun campaign setting did come out for 3e, I'd be overjoyed. However, call me cheap, but I'd like the psionic rules to be printed along with the sourcebook (at least in condensed form). Then it would be easier to start (low-barrier to entry as they say). As for the new campaign, I'd expect more of the same.

Comments?


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## blackshirt5 (Feb 6, 2003)

If it comes out, I'll probably pick it up.

However, I'd still like to see Planescape and Spelljammer get licensed out and redone for 3rd edition.


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## Winterthorn (Feb 6, 2003)

I think a visit here, if one's curious, will help to refine one's speculations:

WotC's Business Plan... 

Note how their research seems focused more upon DM's rather than players. (Do you, if you are a DM, spend 5 times more $$ than your players?) Additionally, there seems to be, research to support "crunch" over "story"...

So what does that mean? It seems, probably confirming much of what we have observed, that WotC is only interested in putting to market rules heavy products (and whatever may support those products I suppose). WotC is not really interested in supporting a setting beyond the "crunchy bits"! They've made that rather clear; look what happened to Wheel of Time--seems to confirm their business plan...

I think it most probable that the new setting will feature new and revised rules, possibly a rules support book, maybe an adventure module. And... That's *all*... Then? Off to the next rules heavy product--or revision 

Thus it seems the upcoming new setting _exists solely to market game rules that would attract DM's--and the type of player who would push a DM into buy the setting to access those rules_! The core books are the "meat & potatoes" of RPG profits. Settings with "funky" rules are just gravy _if_ they sell well...

My guess: a psionic fantasy setting _sans_ arcane and divine magic is a very real possibility. Then it'll be dropped within a year for something else--after a few more "quick" surveys.

[rant]I know WotC is a business... But why do they pander to the idea we are fools? I'm tired of being treated like a stupid consumer. "Hey! WotC! _Gamers_ have _brains_! Sell to our intellect!" BTW: I like what has happened to D&D beause of the pre-Hasbro efforts by the folks at WotC. I don't like the assanine marketing gurus at Hasbro dictating WotC's business strategy so as to keep the Hasbro stockholders happy... Big business is "bad business" for businesses involved in hobbies. I wish WotC was more "upfront" with their subordinate relationship _under_ Hasbro...[/rant]

Sorry, corporate culture rubs me the wrong way today...

But, , if WotC were to mine old material for 3E, I might be interested :grin:

-W.


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## Staffan (Feb 6, 2003)

Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> *3. darksun: setting wise I like the original darksun before it got all sisyfied and the good guys pretty much won the revolution in almost every city state.  Don't know if the fan seting people have fixed that or not, but by the time dark sun came out the second time I felt the setting was much worse than the original. *



Personally, I liked the changes to the city-states in Dark Sun Revised (DSR). In the original setting, all the city-states were mostly alike ("City ruled by immortal sorcerer-monarch served by corrupt templars"). In DSR, you got seven really different city-states:
Tyr - fledgling democracy.
Urik - pretty much as before, but closed to the rest of the world.
Nibenay - pretty much as before.
Gulg - pretty much as before but the SQ *seems* to become more ecologically-minded.
Raam - descends into total anarchy.
Balic - ruled by three merchant-lords of varying dispositions.
Draj - pretend it's business as usual with a figure-head king.

To me, that's much more interesting than seven city-states that are pretty much alike. For those who want to run a city-based campaign where the PCs struggle against the sorcerer-monarch's henchmen, there are still three cities for that (two of which were pretty well described in The Ivory Triangle - that's probably why those two particular monarchs survived).

Personally, I disliked the rule changes in DSR more than the setting changes: halflings suddenly can't be preservers/illusionists anymore, different (and worse) psionics rules, defiling on memorization, and where the heck did the templar class go?


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## rounser (Feb 6, 2003)

> But why do they pander to the idea we are fools?



Because, en masse, that's the way we buy.  If you consider gamer buying patterns in general rather stupid, well, I agree.  The "release core book and don't support" sounds like a Games Workshop strategy, hyping for a short while then dropping support and moving on.  Suckers.


> I'm tired of being treated like a stupid consumer.



Support one of the d20 publishers who caters more to your personal preferences then.


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## Wormwood (Feb 6, 2003)

Winterthorn said:
			
		

> *Note how their research seems focused more upon DM's rather than players. (Do you, if you are a DM, spend 5 times more $$ than your players?) Additionally, there seems to be, research to support "crunch" over "story"...*




I must not see the problem.

If WotC's internal research is to be believed (and there is no reason to doubt it), then they are doing *precisely* what the majority of their customers want. More 'crunch', less 'story'. 

This definitely appeals to customers like me, and I can only assume that I represent a comparatively silent majority.

Okay, back to the ranting


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## Left-handed Hummingbird (Feb 6, 2003)

Staffan said:
			
		

> *Personally, I liked the changes to the city-states in Dark Sun Revised (DSR). In the original setting, all the city-states were mostly alike ("City ruled by immortal sorcerer-monarch served by corrupt templars"). In DSR, you got seven really different city-states:
> 
> [...]
> 
> To me, that's much more interesting than seven city-states that are pretty much alike. For those who want to run a city-based campaign where the PCs struggle against the sorcerer-monarch's henchmen, there are still three cities for that (two of which were pretty well described in The Ivory Triangle - that's probably why those two particular monarchs survived).*



That is true, but OTOH I liked that there were no safe havens for the characters: They can't stay in the cities without getting involved in the lethal intrigues and powergames played by the king, nobles, templars, merchants and underground movements. And they can't stay outside the cities without having to deal with the fact that it's a barren wasteland populated by raiders.

Still, I never really noticed the cities being that similar. It might just be me extrapolating stuff out of the artwork, but each city had a completely different theme. Now, I don't have the books in front of me so I'm only able to remember that Tyr had a Babylonic theme, but the others had Aztec, Jungle, Greeko-Roman, ehm North African (Maroccan), and so on. All right, it isn't very chrunchy variations , but as I said, I liked the idea of the Characters never at ease, never being able to rest.


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## reiella (Feb 7, 2003)

The cities (for the most part, DSR introduced some new factors in a couple cities, and ... well a few collapses) were the same in DS and DSR...  It's just DSR gave more detail to the intrinsicities of the cities, while the original mostly focused on the wastelands and rule content.  Beyond being the psi focused campaign it was, it was also heavily influenced by Battlesystem (Although it served more in the supplements).

There's also that DSR books were alot thicker than the original DS books .


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## Technik4 (Feb 7, 2003)

*RE: Wizards and Campaign Settings*

Ok, it is true that to this point wizards has only supported 2 settings, Greyhawk, via an entire (jilted) campaign based on 10(?) modules, and a mega-campaign, Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, and a series of 5 "splat" books detailing various organizations found in greyhawk. Personally, I would be more inclined to play if they DID release some rules-hevay "crunchy" setting book, as I never bought any of those during 2ed.

The other setting that has been supported for the last 2 years is Forgotten Realms. A setting book, a magic book, a monster book, a "gods" book, a regional book, and a villains book, not to mention a DM screen and a mega-adventure, City of the Spider Queen. Still in the pipe is a races book and another regional book.

Now, some things wizards have stated (Im going off of memory, this is not word for word):

We will be supporting a new campaign every 2 years.

We will be releasing a new mega-adventure every year.

Based on that data, I think either the "new" setting by Mr Baker or possibly hopefully maybe Dark Sun will be supported. More than likely, Dark Sun will get a big crunchy book and further support will fall to another company, and WotC will throw all their eggs in a brand new basket, fully supporting the new campaign with additional books, aides, modules, etc.

Now the key here is, either way, IF the rumors are true, then releasing a revised Psionics Handbook (as others have said, beef it up, add some Mind's Eye and other OGL work by Bruce "Psion" Cordell) is a perfect strategy if they are also releasing a "crunchy" Dark Sun book that will NOT be supported after the main book by WotC (note, this does not mean it will not be supported at all, see also Ravenloft, Rokugan) and releasing a fully supported Psi-Heavy "new" campaign. [Ed note- that was one hell of a setntence]

But thats just my opinion and I could be wrong...

Technik


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## magnas_veritas (Feb 7, 2003)

Wormwood said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I must not see the problem.
> 
> ...




I love crunchiness.  Story is okay, and can be crunchy in a different way (my Birthright DM loved Silver Marches for town descriptions), but at the end of the day, I, the player, am looking for options, and that's what crunch gives me.

Brad


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## Dragon (Feb 7, 2003)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> *And I'm surprised nobody ever registered The Dragon before now... *




Nobody registered just plain old Dragon either.

Imagine that


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## megamania (Feb 7, 2003)

FireLance said:
			
		

> *Just to add fuel to the fire of Completely Wild Speculation:
> 
> [wild speculation]
> I seem to recall most of the final few setting search proposals dealt with "Golden Age" scenarios.  Wouldn't it be interesting if the "new" setting was actually (or was set up so that it could be) Athas during the Blue or Green Age?  Even more reason for fans to pick up *both* settings!
> ...




You were reading my mind on the use of different times.  An early Cleansing Wars time period would be excellent!!!!!!

Epic Level Prestige classes are tough.  I have done conversions for Darksun Dragons, Avangions and mortal elementals.  It's not easy!


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## megamania (Feb 7, 2003)

Anyone whom knows me knows I LOVE DARKSUN.

I have heard these rumors way back before 3e was released.  I hope this is true but all I can do is save my money and wait 

As for "crunchie" books-  since Athas (Darksun) is so different from the more tradional books, there could be any number of books released.

Darksun, in it's 6 years of production in 2e, showed incredible deapth and use of imagination.  Often, the imagination used was the "thinking outside of the box" type that 3e excels at.

I have done 3e conversions that lose much of the feel of the 2e Darksun but was user friendly.  The Athas.org site has many new ideas that I like but seem off somehow still.  Currently I am running a PbP using their rules along with Core books and If Thoughts Could Kill.  We have only started but so good so far.

I hope it's true....lot's of circumstantal stuff (tons of polls involving Psionics/psionics use anyway)


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## megamania (Feb 7, 2003)

Oh-  by the way-  below are links to my PbP Darksun game, Killer in Kalidnay  and my Story Hour of Darksun using my 3e conversion rules.

Killer in Kalidnay-   1800 years before boxed sets.  Someone is killing people within the Golden City.  No one knows who or how but the Templars have assigned it to a group of travelers based on a psychic's vision.

Under a Darksun-  Occurs just before the first boxed set.  Who or what is the young man known only as Mania?  And why does so many mysterious and seemily powerful people want to control him?

....until Dregoth gives out hugs and kisses on Valentine's day....


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## EvilOz (Feb 7, 2003)

Agamon said:
			
		

> *
> I coulda swore that one of the things TSR did wrong, according to the WotC brass, was branch out into a bunch of different settings, losing its focus, and making books that few people would buy, compared to more generic splats that were generally more useful to everyone and less campiagn-specific.
> 
> It also goes against their rule that nothing they put out for D&D would require anything but the core books.
> ...




I figured this was a matter of time.  DnD has been around too long for most of the old players to be satisfied with Forgotten Relams being the focus of WotC.  This same practice is what killed TSR.  Remember how many settings there were?  Spelljammer, DL, FR, Dark Sun, Al Quadim, Birthright, Ravenloft, and the list goes on.  I thought the original idea was to let other imprints take on the responsibility of putting on the other Campaign Settings.  People like Sovereign Press are putting out the DLCS with the help of WotC.  Ravenloft was put out by Sword and Sorcery.  I would much rather see another D20 publisher pick up Dark Sun and run with it instead of putting the financial burden for this on WotC.  I guess some people dont learn from history.  Interest in DnD is high right now and will be for a short time longer.  (Considering the launch of 3E is still pretty new news to some ppl)  In time the profits will begin to shrink again and the market for RPG material will settle, and we will all be in the same boat as before.


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## Gez (Feb 7, 2003)

EvilOz said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Interest in DnD is high right now and will be for a short time longer.  (Considering the launch of 3E is still pretty new news to some ppl)  In time the profits will begin to shrink again and the market for RPG material will settle, and we will all be in the same boat as before. *




And then will come 4e... TSR died because they were unable to renew their game. I think WotC "Magic" know what to do...


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## Leopold (Feb 7, 2003)

only way this could be someone useful and benefical was if the dark sun license were allowed to be used by all as OGL material. Face it, DS is not THAT hot of a setting and it does have it's niche. Allowing 3rd party companies to use that material for free would be a boon for the game and would help sell the core book that WOTC may produce.


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## Shard O'Glase (Feb 7, 2003)

Staffan said:
			
		

> *
> Personally, I liked the changes to the city-states in Dark Sun Revised (DSR). In the original setting, all the city-states were mostly alike ("City ruled by immortal sorcerer-monarch served by corrupt templars"). In DSR, you got seven really different city-states:
> Tyr - fledgling democracy.
> Urik - pretty much as before, but closed to the rest of the world.
> ...




The differences may have been larger in the revised but what killed it for me is that it had a feel to it(to me at least) like the good guys were winning and it was only a matter of time until all the sorcerer kings were overthrown.  The original thing that drew me to darksun was it was a setting where the Bad Guys were on top, they were winning, and there was a fledgling revoultion trying to make some change.  

Now I think its cool when camapign worlds evolve, I really like SR in how a year passes in the SR world as rougly a year passes here, and events happen and the world evolves.  But in SR the core feel doesn't seem to change.  The pcs are still the little guys, and while small victories occur here and there the big boys have there victories as well.  

And that's where I feel the revised darksun failed it lost its core feel of fledgling revolutionaires against overwhelming odds.  Almost all the changes were on the side of the sorcerer kings being overthrown, and the evolutionaries getting powered up.

Side Note: I'm curious to see how they handle sorcerer kings(and the good varient whoose name I forget) transformation into superbeings in the new multiclassing system.  For those who don't know you needed to be a really high level psion and a really high level wizard before you could make the transition to dragon form for evil guys, and again I forget the good guy form.  They may just say hey this requires the epic level handbook, because we're talking level 30 at least.


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## Shard O'Glase (Feb 7, 2003)

Gez said:
			
		

> *
> 
> And then will come 4e... TSR died because they were unable to renew their game. I think WotC "Magic" know what to do... *




Considering the major changes from 2e to 3e, where for all intents and purposes it was a new game and not a new edition the revision seems to be about right in time line compared to other companies, same with the new edition predicted in 05 I think.  Maybe you're just spoiled from the long lasting 2e, and expect 3e to be the same.  But most game companies that don't die off have new editions much more frequently than D&D has in the past.  Crap shadowrun is already on 3e and they've been around since what late 80's.

So in other words this isn't some "magic" thing this is just the norm for the industry.


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## Golandrinel (Feb 7, 2003)

Sorry, I may cover ground that has already been covered ... but I only joined 1/2 an hour ago.

There's nothing like a new release to push sales for a re-hash of old rules and settings. A new psionics dominated setting will give fuel to the psionics fire and with it drag out the skeleton of the darksun setting, which is IMO the best and most underrated setting ever produced.

I won't be rushing to buy the new setting, Midnight and Darksun will do just fine... I fI can get my head around the d20 concept that is.


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## Staffan (Feb 7, 2003)

Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> *
> 
> The differences may have been larger in the revised but what killed it for me is that it had a feel to it(to me at least) like the good guys were winning and it was only a matter of time until all the sorcerer kings were overthrown.  The original thing that drew me to darksun was it was a setting where the Bad Guys were on top, they were winning, and there was a fledgling revoultion trying to make some change.  *



That was not quite the impression I got - OK, DSR was not *quite* as bleak as the original box (the rulebook was called "Age of Heroes" after all), but it was definitely not a happy world. The Dragon might be dead, but there were several new threats looming on the horizon (the Kreen, Dregoth, and possibly an undead invasion) not to mention the added pseudonatural hazard of the Tyr storms. The intro adventure in the box set also had a hint about returning Rhulisti, aka ur-halflings. One might also wonder how long the wards put in place to hold Rajaat again will hold - I doubt the original Sorcerer-monarchs used a spell that required thousands of human sacrifices just to be evil, and I also doubt that even Sadira's sun magic can match that kind of power.


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## Staffan (Feb 7, 2003)

Leopold said:
			
		

> *only way this could be someone useful and benefical was if the dark sun license were allowed to be used by all as OGL material. Face it, DS is not THAT hot of a setting and it does have it's niche. Allowing 3rd party companies to use that material for free would be a boon for the game and would help sell the core book that WOTC may produce. *



Dark Sun is quite possibly the hottest setting of them all. It's not uncommon for it to reach 150 degrees Fahrenheit in the afternoon.

OK, Spelljammer might be hotter locally, what with the fire bodies and all, but I think Dark Sun has the highest mean temperature.


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## EvilOz (Feb 7, 2003)

Gez said:
			
		

> *
> 
> And then will come 4e... TSR died because they were unable to renew their game. I think WotC "Magic" know what to do... *




If this becomes true and WotC puts out a new edition anytime within the next five years, I doubt I will buy it.  I have built a serious 3E library and it rivals my old 2E library (which is pretty much useless now except for reference)

The one thing I am deathly afreaid of is that WotC will lose sight of what is really important to them, the people who play.  The main demographic for DnD players falls into the lower income brackets.  It is hard enough for me to buy a book a month and pay my bills.  4E better be further off than most people think, or WotC risks losing alot of the new player base they have created.  

Words wouldn't be able to describe how mad I would be about a quick turn around release of 4E within the next five years


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## FireLance (Feb 8, 2003)

megamania said:
			
		

> *
> 
> You were reading my mind on the use of different times.  An early Cleansing Wars time period would be excellent!!!!!!*




Yup, but it would hardly be considered a "Golden Age", except maybe for Rajaat and his band of genocidal followers.


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## FireLance (Feb 8, 2003)

Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> *Side Note: I'm curious to see how they handle sorcerer kings(and the good varient whoose name I forget) transformation into superbeings in the new multiclassing system.  For those who don't know you needed to be a really high level psion and a really high level wizard before you could make the transition to dragon form for evil guys, and again I forget the good guy form.  They may just say hey this requires the epic level handbook, because we're talking level 30 at least. *




The "good guys" were called Avangions, and yes, you'd have to be really high level to become one.  If they stick by the 2e system and require you to be a level 20 psion and a level 20 wizard, you'd have to wait 40 levels (at least) before you can take your first level in one of these classes.

Problem is, I've never played an Epic level campaign, but I've heard that multi-class spellcasters really lack effectiveness when compared to a focused character, especially against spell-resistant foes.  It would be really interesting to see how they could be balanced.


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## FireLance (Feb 8, 2003)

megamania said:
			
		

> *Epic Level Prestige classes are tough.  I have done conversions for Darksun Dragons, Avangions and mortal elementals.  It's not easy! *




Megamania, any chance of seeing your conversions?


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## Alzrius (Feb 8, 2003)

FireLance said:
			
		

> *Yup, but it would hardly be considered a "Golden Age", except maybe for Rajaat and his band of genocidal followers. *




Perhaps an option of setting it in the time before the Cleansing Wars...a Green Age campaign.

It certainly would be different, but not too different, we know that. Most of the standard races are still there...but halflings have already descended into barbarism. The only divine spellcasters are the elemental clerics and maybe some druids. Arcane spellcasting hasn't been invented (or maybe Rajaat has begun to teach preserving in public and defiling in secret, which he did long before the Cleansing Wars after he invented sorcery). And of course, psionics is big. People think of it the way characters in other settings think of magic. That would be an interesting campaign.


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## Mouseferatu (Feb 8, 2003)

> I coulda swore that one of the things TSR did wrong, according to the WotC brass, was branch out into a bunch of different settings, losing its focus, and making books that few people would buy, compared to more generic splats that were generally more useful to everyone and less campiagn-specific.




As I understand it, what killed TSR wasn't branching out into a bunch of different settings.  It was trying to _support_ a bunch of different settings _all at once_.  They poached customers from each other.

If, however, WotC support one setting for a few years, then moves on to another for a few years, than another for a few years after that, they can avoid those problems.  And if there's a _lot_ of demand for further products in any of those past settings, they can always print them as needed.


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## Staffan (Feb 8, 2003)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Perhaps an option of setting it in the time before the Cleansing Wars...a Green Age campaign.
> 
> It certainly would be different, but not too different, we know that. Most of the standard races are still there...but halflings have already descended into barbarism. The only divine spellcasters are the elemental clerics and maybe some druids.  *



Supposedly, druids were a lot more common back then. Earth Air Fire and Water (the DS splatbook for clerics, druids and to some extent templars) mentions that the sorcerer-kings killed off a lot of druids back in the day, which is why Dark Sun doesn't have the druidic society described in the 2e PHB (with Archdruids, Great Druids and Hierophants).


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## Alzrius (Feb 8, 2003)

Yes...I vaguely recall something somewhere about some sort of druid purge going on. Thanks for the helpful reference Staffan!


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## tleilaxu (Feb 12, 2003)

any updates on this scoop?


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## Roman (Feb 12, 2003)

Yes!!!! Bring back Dark Sun!  I have fallen in love with this setting immediately as I saw it, but unfortunately never got to play it as I moved away from my group.  But now, if this turns out to be true...


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## Roman (Feb 12, 2003)

Any news on this matter? Has WotC confirmed or denied the rumour or has it stayed silent?


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## reiella (Feb 12, 2003)

WotC_Mark (Mark Jindra) has denied them.

Here: http://boards.wizards.com/rpg/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=123;t=004253

and here: http://boards.wizards.com/rpg/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=123;t=004236


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## Roman (Feb 13, 2003)

That is a great pity.


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## Goobermunch (Feb 16, 2003)

Everyone here seems to have decided that Keith Baker's new setting will be strongly based around psionics.  I'd just like to point out that that rumor is based, in large part, on the fact that WotC's psionics survey appeared on the same day they announced that his campaign was selected.

That's some pretty tenuous support for the conclusions that have been drawn.  Furthermore, Mr. Baker himself has suggested (intentionally vaguely, I'll admit) that his setting is not psionics heavy.  See this thread for his statement.

I'd stand down a little bit before connecting the dots between Dark Sun, Bakersetting, and PsiH 3.5, since one of those dots might not be there.

--G


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