# I do / don't like George R.R. Martin's Song of Ice & Fire series



## Mistwell (Jan 17, 2003)

Many people like Geroge R.R. Martin's A Song of Fire And Ice series (A Game of Thrones, A Clash of Kings, The Storm of Swords, more to come).  Dragon is even doing an article on the world in the next issue.

A surprising number (to me) of people have said they do not like the series however.  I must admit, I too feel the series has started to become difficult for me, as I feel that there is no real hero for me to sympathize with or root for. I plan on reading more of the series as it comes out, but I wanted to hear other people's thoughts on it, and get a feel for how common or uncommon my own views on the series are.

I fully expect most people to answer the poll that they like Martin's series.  Generally speaking, people like any fantasy series they have read - usually because people with similar tastes to them recommend the book to begin with, and a certain commitment is necessary to undertake reading such a series as well, so you are usually inclined to like long fantasy series of most kinds if you are willing to undertake the task.  I am interested in how many exceptions there are, however, to this predicted norm.


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## EricNoah (Jan 17, 2003)

Best fantasy series ever!  Well, pretty much.  If it were a D&D campaign I'd say "a great balance between hack-and-slash and politics/roleplaying, in an intriguing low-magic setting."


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## Eosin the Red (Jan 17, 2003)

What Eric said. It can be infuriating however.


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## KnowTheToe (Jan 17, 2003)

Excellent books.  I am just starting to reread the first three in preperation for the fourth.  My only concern is, will this turn into the Wheel of Time????  

With a book every two years, I want the series to end before I retire in 35 years, I am guessing WoT will continue until Jordan dies and the story will never end (but that is Ok because I won't read anymore of them).

By the way, the Imp will be King!


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## KenM (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm only a little quarter way done with first book, love it so far. I heard it will be the May issue of Dragon with the info in it, not next month. I also heard George RR Martin said he will ONLY do six books, two trilogies.


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## CrusaderX (Jan 17, 2003)

Excellent books, the best fantasy since Tolkien, IMO.  I'm planning on re-reading them again soon.  They're emotional rollercoasters, but highly entertaining.  And I love books that make me drop my jaw and go "Wow!".


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## Starman (Jan 17, 2003)

> I also heard George RR Martin said he will ONLY do six books, two trilogies.




Jordan has said numerous times that he will wrap up his series in two more books. Anymore I don't believe any author when they say how many books will be in their series. I just keep reading them.  

Starman


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## Assenpfeffer (Jan 17, 2003)

Starman said:
			
		

> * Jordan has said numerous times that he will wrap up his series in two more books. Anymore I don't believe any author when they say how many books will be in their series. I just keep reading them.  *




Just so we're all clear on this, Jordan started saying "two more books" three books ago.


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## Dr Midnight (Jan 17, 2003)

Chalk me up for a big, lusty "I do". I love the books to death... despite that the author is this man:






It saddens me to see so much tragedy happening to characters I care about, but I've enjoyed the ride so much that if I could, I would wipe my memory clean and read them again... then repeat as soon as I was done.

They're the best books I've read, period, and I would recommend them for anyone with the stomach for the gritty content.


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## Skade (Jan 17, 2003)

I love the series, and will be rereading it soon in preperation for the upcoming sequel.  I have never minded that there is not a single protagonist to care about and follow, mostly because they are all such interesting characters.  Even the villains have good reasons for what they do.  There is no cookie cutter good or bad guys.  Some of the characters you initially hate, you come to have affection for.  The Hound, Jamie and Tyrion being the best examples of that.  I mean Jamie threw a boy out of a fourth story window, and I actually like him now.  It is a richly detailed story, with tantilizing hints of its history and mythology.  

That, and you never know who is going to die next.


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## King_Stannis (Jan 17, 2003)

I am rereading the series now, and if it's possible, I'm enjoying them even better the second time around.  Although I find myself getting sick in the stomach as I approach the part of the book where 

Spoiler...
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Ned is imprisoned in the dungeons below the red keep. I am warming up my arm for the first *official* book toss of the second reading of the series 

Seriously, though, I know it might not be for everyone - but Martin's writing skill is just eons ahead of some of these hacks writing fantasy nowadays. The story so far is simply wonderful, and I hope it doesn't run out of steam. I, too, am worried about a Jordan-type milking, but doubt it's going to happen. Martin grudgingly wrote this current book as the "extra", as it was going to be told via flashback in "A Dance With Dragons". He came to the conclusion that too much was going on in the 5 years he intended to skip, so to avoid confusion, he gave the period its own book (A Feast for Crows). You can at least tell that Martin has a plan to end this thing, and that's fine with me. Hopefully, he'll go out while it's still good - and then start writing "Dunk and Egg stories".

As for there being no heroes, Mistwell, I disagree. Jon is almost a "classic" hero, and if you can't root for him than you probably can't root for anyone. 

Dany is also very strong. She's done some things that make you scratch your head at times, but generally she is a "good guy" - so far.  I think Martin intends you to identify the saga through their eyes. 

I, of course, identify the series through The Lord of Dragonstone and True King of Westeros......(points down to sig)


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## KnowTheToe (Jan 17, 2003)

King S,

You are only reading them for a second time.  I am impressed with your memory of the story and characters (things I have read in other posts).  I am just starting my second reading and am only a little behind you.  I wish I could get my friends to read this, but they won't read any series that is not written to conclusion.


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## Mistwell (Jan 17, 2003)

I agree, Jon is a hero. He is mostly a supporting role, however.  You follow him a bit, but you couldn't really say it is told from his perspective.  He isn't even in the vast majority of most of the books.  I'd be much happier if Jon became the focus of the books.

Dany is not a hero in my eyes.  I just think people think of her as a hero because there is soooo much evil done by other characters that she looks good in comparison.

I don't fault people for not needing a hero in their fantasy fiction - however, I prefer one.  It's just that, a preference.


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## King_Stannis (Jan 17, 2003)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> *I agree, Jon is a hero. He is mostly a supporting role, however.  You follow him a bit, but you couldn't really say it is told from his perspective.  He isn't even in the vast majority of most of the books.  I'd be much happier if Jon became the focus of the books.
> 
> Dany is not a hero in my eyes.  I just think people think of her as a hero because there is soooo much evil done by other characters that she looks good in comparison.
> 
> I don't fault people for not needing a hero in their fantasy fiction - however, I prefer one.  It's just that, a preference. *




Mistwell: If what people are speculating is correct about Jon's heritage, then he will be playing a MUCH bigger role in the coming books of the series. So, too, with Dany.

Thanks, KnowTheToe


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## drothgery (Jan 17, 2003)

Assenpfeffer said:
			
		

> *Just so we're all clear on this, Jordan started saying "two more books" three books ago. *




No he didn't. He was on a 'at least three more books' kick from book 5 to book 9; 'at least two more books' is new, though after reading CoT it's difficult for me to see how he could have been at 'at least three more' before CoT and at 'at least two more' after it.


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## danbala (Jan 17, 2003)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> * I must admit, I too feel the series has started to become difficult for me, as I feel that there is no real hero for me to sympathize with or root for. *




I would think that Jon Snow (and company) fit the bill of CG goodguy pretty well. Also I think Daeyns (sp?) has evolved into a very likable character. Also Samwell Tarley seems to be getting some guts to back up his moral sense. Bran and the Cragomen also seem fairly herioc.

My sense is that people tend to object to the villains being portrayed sympathetically. I have heard that people are uncomfortable with Jaime's roll in the third novel. But, hey, people change. 

Some of histories greatest heroes were also villians in some sense -- often in ways that would seem to deny their acts of vallor.  LBJ, for example, was famously racist; that is, until he brokered the civil rights act.  Grant was a notorious drunk and a great general. There are many others.

I happen to enjoy the fact that this level of complexity is reflected in the novels. To me, every time one of the heroes has doubts, is confused by events, or tempted to do wrong, its like a breath of fresh air.


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## Alaric_Prympax (Jan 17, 2003)

IMO it is the best fantasy series on the shelf.  I find it extremely well written.  There is plenty of discription to get you to "see" what GRRM wants you to "see" but not too much to draw it and make it boring.  He has lots of twists and turns and unexpected events to keep you riveted to the series until you get upset over an event that causes you have to throw the book across the room and not pick it up for awhile (first time that ever happened to me reading a series).  Furthermore there is a list of characters in the back listed acording to House  to make it easy to find who is who in the series.  Yeah, I like the series.  I look forward to when _A Feast for Crows_ .


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## Skade (Jan 18, 2003)

I guess I should clarify.

When I said there was a single protagonist, I meant there are several.  Jon is a great hero character, and perfectly flawed by self doubt and a little loathing.  Luckily his need to protect others far outweighs this.  Daenyrs is also somewhat herois, but is colored by the brutality she willingly commits.  Brutality far beyond what is NECESSARY for her goals.  I actually think of Tyrion as a hero, though his means can be a little dirty.  Even when he was loyal to the Lannisters his goals were justified by his family loyalty.  The various Houses don't exactly run around calling each other Good and Evil.  Everyone has depth.  So much depth that some of the "good guys" I cannot stand.  I really hated Catlyn Stark (Tully).  What Martin gives us though is a chance for some of these characters to grow and redeem themselves, or fall from grace.  That is of course unless he kills them off....

I cried at the book throwing scene.  
I feeling a little faclemped...talk amongst yourselves.  I'll give you a topic.  D20 Modern, neither D20, nor Modern....discuss....


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## jdavis (Jan 18, 2003)

I love these books, they have a more gritty realism to them than a lot of fantasy books, of course that is probably one of the reasons they are not universally liked. I have only been suprised by one of the deaths in the book (and she poped back to life) and I like it that people are dying, it's a war. I like the lack of a distinct hero in the book so far, but it mainly seems that that comes from the characters being so spread out. Jon Snow is the main hero of the book but hasn't actually interacted with the majority of the other people in the book yet, which makes me very interested in what is to come. It is a very deep world filled with gray characters, I loved how characters grow and change in the book, particularly Jamie and Tyrion. 

I think this story gets compared to Jordan's way too much, they are nothing alike with the exception of both having huge cast and more than 3 books. Martin's story will wrap up eventually and it keeps on moving at a good pace. Jordan's books are slowing down and getting broader in scope, it takes him 300 pages just to get through one day with all his characters, sometimes I just wish he would start a chapter with "and nothing important happened" and get on with people who matter, I don't need to read a transcript of every single conversation. I don't mind the amount of books in Jordan's saga just the quality, I got spoiled to 900 or so pages of good story every year (I started reading them when Eye of the World first came out), now I get 600 pages of ok story and filler with a couple of real good chapters here and there every two years. I have yet to see any problems like that with Martin's books, he is sticking to the point pretty good and seems to have a focus on where this is going.


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## jhallum (Jan 18, 2003)

*I like the books, but a buddy of mine doesn't*

I love the Martin series, but a buddy of mine doesn't. 

He is a Federal Law Enforcement officer, and as he deals with strange folk all day, he didn't like the characterizations in the book--too close to home, I think.  I think when he got the first scene between Cersei and Jaime--that's when he threw the book across the room and never looked back.  Too bad, but I understand his reasons.


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## Avarice (Jan 19, 2003)

*Yeah, I love them, but...*

I can certainly understand why some people wouldn't like the series.  Those who want to escape into a setting where good and evil are obvious and clearly defined should probably look elsewhere.  Aside from the Others, there are no clearly defined 'bad guys' (though I'm certainly not overly fond of the Lannisters).  The characters in this series are all very human, with very believable ambitions, virtues, and frailties.  What makes it all the more amazing to me is that Martin is slowly managing to write a very epic tale with these (for the most part) un-epic characters.

And as for the eventual end-of-series book count, my bet is on seven.  As others have said, _A Feast For Crows_ wasn't supposed to be its own book, but only a series of flashbacks in the fourth book of what was then going to be a six part series.  At any rate, I'm not too worried about him pulling a Jordan; for one thing, Martin has never met a character he can't kill.  Dead characters fill no pages.   For another, the points of view through which we see his world are very few compared to WoT.  Martin doesn't want us to see everything thats going on in ASoIaF, and I think he'd be quite happy if he left us scratching our heads about some of the details when the series ends.


edit:  Wow what a pic, btw.  You'd think he could have come up with something a little more flattering to put on his own website, eh Doctor M?


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## Salthanas (Jan 19, 2003)

Greetings all

  I must admit to not being a fan of GRRM work mainly because i like my fantasy slightly more Tolkiensque I guess. If I want to read a grim and gritty novel set in a medival setting I'd always recommend The Name of the Rose, a novel which IMO blows Martins work out of the water on any number of levels.

yours Salthanas


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## Knightfall (Jan 19, 2003)

Haven't read them.  Unsure whether I want to or not.


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## EricNoah (Jan 20, 2003)

Salthanas said:
			
		

> *Greetings all
> 
> I must admit to not being a fan of GRRM work mainly because i like my fantasy slightly more Tolkiensque I guess. If I want to read a grim and gritty novel set in a medival setting I'd always recommend The Name of the Rose, a novel which IMO blows Martins work out of the water on any number of levels.
> 
> yours Salthanas *




I've read and enjoyed both, and Name of the Rose is right up there in my top 10, along with Martin's series (and yes I insist on calling them one work so I can fit more into my top 10).


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## Eosin the Red (Jan 20, 2003)

Eco is one of my favorites - but I have never counted his works as fantasy. They are more historical suspence. I always thought a degree in semotics (sp) would entitle you to be refered to as "the dude with the big brain." Can you buy those? 

Strange trend in "Fav Author." Maybe the tone of the intial post fuels it? It seems to me that a large number of posts are saying "He sucks, this guy is better." When "this guy" writes stories that are in a different sub-genere.  Maybe I should build a poll talking about all the sub-sections of fantasy? We could all argue about Tolkien and Jordan being High Fantasy, Low Fantasy or Epic Fantasy. Martin could get S&S (swords & more swords ) while Salvatore could get....well, I will be polite.

See, even I did it.


To the original post - I fianlly thought of something you might like - David Gemmel. I find it light and refreshing after a Martin/Jordan book. He writes familiar stories with a rough and tumble attiude. I have read very few (none) who can tell the cliche stories that Gemmel does and leave me wanting more. The stories are rather strait forward where men are men and your own fear is the greatest enemy. Some of the women kick hiney also.


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## Salthanas (Jan 20, 2003)

Eosin the Red said:
			
		

> *Eco is one of my favorites - but I have never counted his works as fantasy. They are more historical suspence. I always thought a degree in semotics (sp) would entitle you to be refered to as "the dude with the big brain." Can you buy those?
> 
> Strange trend in "Fav Author." Maybe the tone of the intial post fuels it? It seems to me that a large number of posts are saying "He sucks, this guy is better." When "this guy" writes stories that are in a different sub-genere.  Maybe I should build a poll talking about all the sub-sections of fantasy? We could all argue about Tolkien and Jordan being High Fantasy, Low Fantasy or Epic Fantasy. Martin could get S&S (swords & more swords ) while Salvatore could get....well, I will be polite.
> 
> ...




I did not mean to say that The Name of the Rose was a fantasy book. As you said its more of a historical suspence. People seem to have a need to read novels that they regard as more realistic these days, in fact to some people that goes to the heart of Martins appeal. If someone however wanted to read something that portrayed an accurate representation of the grimness of medival times I'd recommend it rather than some of the ultra low magic fantasy settings.

 To be clear its not that I think Martins a bad writer, far from it, the political dimensions to his books are extremely well done its just that for me it was hard to find an attachment to any of the characters or in some ways the overall story, perhaps because if there is an overall theme to it all its not always obvious.


yours Salthanas


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## Eosin the Red (Jan 20, 2003)

hehehe, I thought I was reading in the "ENworld book recommendations suck" thread.  Hence the thought. 

Good points.


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## Shard O'Glase (Jan 21, 2003)

don't like as far as I read.

1. bored stiff reading it.

2. characters unrealistic to me, and while that in itself wont kill it they also didn't interest me in any way to make me give a crap what happened to them. (unrealsitc-sure people like that can and do exist, but so do the way too good hero, or the way too evil villans ala Jordan and many other fantasy writers, in Martins they were all freaks, if a few of them were freaks I'd be ok, but all of them oi.  And since none of the characters grabbed me at all well a no-read for me.  For Jordan Rand initially grabbed me, but he has sucked so bad for so many books, and Matt the only character I like is just not in the books enough, so I'm done with Jordan likely though when he's done with the series I may finish it just to put an end to the time investment in thos stories)


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## WizarDru (Jan 21, 2003)

I enjoyed Jordan before he lost his way (and, apparently, his editor).  But GRRM, on the other hand, has yet to fail to please.  His prose is exacting, his characters intriguing and the plot is unpredictable.  I disagree that there are no heroes in the series, although if you're looking for a kwisatz hadderach ala Richard Cypher ("You are a rare man, Richard Cypher"), you won't find him here.  Most of GRRM's characters are too difficult to pin down as straight villains or heroes....they're people, real three-dimensional characters.

When's the last time Jordan killed an actual main character?  The one he did kill, everyone pretty much assumes she's still alive, since we don't KNOW that she's dead.  GRRM's narrative feels like it's GOING SOMEWHERE.  I still love Jordan, but he no longer grabs me as he once did.  We need more of the 'Conan' Jordan, these days.


And for the record, GRRM is not a fantasy writer, he's a writer.  He's written as much Science-Fiction and modern fantasy as 'swords-and-sorcery', and unlike Jordan, some of his best work, IMHO, is as AN EDITOR, not a writer.


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## Harp (Jan 21, 2003)

One thing that really stands out to me about Martin (I'm a huge fan) is that the better part of his story is told from the perspective of kids (teens or pre-teens).  Speaking as someone who typically despises the use of children in narrative, who are more often than not merely cutesy pseudo-characters, I have to say that Martin must have a gift to make me care so much about who these people are and what fate holds for them.  Granted, the young people in his story don't have the cares and concerns of typical kids, but I'm still impressed with the way he's fleshed them out into full-fledged, multidimensional _people_, as they should be.


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## Dr. NRG (Jan 22, 2003)

*Re: Yeah, I love them, but...*



			
				Avarice said:
			
		

> *Those who want to escape into a setting where good and evil are obvious and clearly defined should probably look elsewhere.  ]*



*

This hits it right on the head.  In fact, Avarice, those people can look, well, pretty much anywhere else and find good and evil spelled out in black and white.  The characters in this series are not simple; they evolve; they err; they experience life and their behavior subtely reflects what they've learned and been exposed to.  

I gave up Jordan's stuff after one or two books.  As someone previously commented, he appeared to have tossed aside his editor.  The fact that GRRM is taking so bloody long to finish the next book is, to me, a good sign.  Far too many authors labor for 10 years over their first novel, turning out an absolute gem, only to suffer when their book deal requires them to pump out a book a year for the next three years.  In addition to being a fine writer, Martin is also the definition of an industry veteran, and has avoided this (among many other) common pitfalls.

Bravo George, and may you live to be 110.

NRG

P.S. That's a Greyjoy kraken under my name...*


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## Alaric_Prympax (Jan 22, 2003)

FWIW AFAIK Jordan's editor is his wife.

Don't you just love internet shorthand.


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## Bob Aberton (Jan 22, 2003)

In my opinion, the basic problem that many people (not me...) have with GRRM's books is that his world is too realistic.

By that I mean that, in GRRM's books, just like in real life, THE HEROES DIE.  Most people can't get used to a fantasy book in which the hero dies, or the hero fails miserably.

Look at Eddard Stark...

SPOILERS POSSIBLE






I WARNED YOU



I mean, seriously, look at Eddard Stark.  He was brave, honest, truthful, kind, etc.  In short, he was the hero.  He had all the other heroic qualities.

Now, in any ordinary fantasy book, he would have succeeded in his bid to bring order to the kingdom and keep Cersei and her children away from the throne, there would have been a happy ending.

In Game of Thrones, as most of you know, he failed.  Miserably.  He was too trusting and goodhearted, and he was betrayed by his "friends" and stabbed in the back by those he trusted.  And he was killed.  And the kingdom erupted to war and bloody violence.  

See what I mean by being too realistic?  What do you think would happen to and honest, trusting politician in RL?  Probably the same sort of thing that happened to Eddard Stark, although there wouldn't be any executions or imprisonment, just a severe loss of face and office...

And a lot of people say to themselves, "this book sucks!  The hero just got killed off, and the bad guys won!  I want my escapism back."

I know I have a hard time reading it, because I tend to get attached to the characters in the books.  And, of course, the ones that get attached to are always the ones that get killed off.

Except for Tyrion Lannister.  He's cool, and we all know he's too smart to let himself get killed off, right...?


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## WizarDru (Jan 22, 2003)

Bob Aberton said:
			
		

> *SPOILERS BE HERE
> I mean, seriously, look at Eddard Stark.  He was brave, honest, truthful, kind, etc.  In short, he was the hero.  He had all the other heroic qualities.*




Well, let's be honest, here.  Ned Stark was _likeable_.  He was not always a hero.  His wife certainly was not happy that he fathered a bastard, then brought him home and paraded him around in front of her and her entire household, treating almost like a legitimate heir.  In a world where inheritance and heraldry carry so much weight, and where a women's greatest contribution is often her progeny...that's no small thing.  Stark also could be downright bloodthirsty, if it called for it.



> *In Game of Thrones, as most of you know, he failed.  Miserably.  He was too trusting and goodhearted, and he was betrayed by his "friends" and stabbed in the back by those he trusted.  And he was killed.  And the kingdom erupted to war and bloody violence.  *





Well, he was too trusting, that's true.  But his death came from a psychotic 13 year-old who violated every political rule in the book.  Westeros was already a powder keg when Ned Stark rolled into town.

The real issue, and I understand what you're saying, is that this isn't Ned Stark's story, but we honestly think, at the beginning, that it is, or at least might be.  So when Stark dies (and you're sure...SURE! that he won't) it's a powerful shock of cold water in the face.  I would posit that GRRM set it up for that very purpose, to make sure you understood the ground rules.  

There are characters who are relatively nice moral actors in the series, but the Bran and the frog-catchers, for example, are not in the story constantly.  Most of the main characters are good from a certain perspective, or at least they believe themselves to be.  The Baratheons, for example, all think they know what's best, and each had his own set of flaws.  So too the Lannisters.  When characters like the Hound, Jamie Lannister and Daenrys become more heroic, some see that as a betrayl.  They want good things to happen to good people, and bad things to happen to bad people...and mostly it just looks like bad things to everyone.  I can certainly understand why that wouldn't appeal to some, especially if you're more of a David Eddings or Raymond Feist  frame of mind, for example.

Of course, since we're only half-way through the series, we haven't even seen the good happen, per se.  Much of this is just set-up for the REAL battle of good and evil.


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## Skade (Jan 22, 2003)

The books are an epic in the tradition of the Odyssey.  Hubris, pathos, and lots of dead people!  

The heroes are not like we think of them, but like the greek heroes, which means screwed in every way.  They are not only usually blind to their own faults, but filled with some really nasty ones.  They almost always succeed in some meaningful way, but are then destroyed, often by their very own success.


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## King_Stannis (Jan 22, 2003)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Well, let's be honest, here.  Ned Stark was likeable.  He was not always a hero.  His wife certainly was not happy that he fathered a bastard, then brought him home and paraded him around in front of her and her entire household, treating almost like a legitimate heir.  In a world where inheritance and heraldry carry so much weight, and where a women's greatest contribution is often her progeny...that's no small thing.  Stark also could be downright bloodthirsty, if it called for it... *




But even that may, perhaps, have been done to a greater good. Many have surmised that Jon is really Ned's sister Lyanna's child, begotten from Rhaegar Targaryan. Her "promise" to Ned may have been to never tell of his true origin, which would have lead Robert or any future king to find the boy and kill him - being he was of Targaryan blood.

If that's true, Ned did a very honorable thing in bringing dishonor to his name. It hurt Catelyn for sure but, considering the greater good it may well do, he was prepared to take that risk and call Jon his own bastard.

Naturally, this is all speculation. But evidence is pointing in that direction. Anyway, it's fun to speculate!


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## KnowTheToe (Jan 22, 2003)

Bob Aberton said:
			
		

> *
> I mean, seriously, look at Eddard Stark.  He was brave, honest, truthful, kind, etc.  In short, he was the hero.  He had all the other heroic qualities.
> 
> *




While Ned was all of those things you listed, he was also stubborn, singleminded, and stupid.  He left his podunk lands and became the number two man in the kingdom he did not change how he played the game, even when he KNEW everyone else was playing hardball and playing to win.  He was a dope who payed the ultimate price.


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## Dr. NRG (Jan 22, 2003)

It seems to me that people often commit the sin of giving in to the literary equivalent of meta-gaming.  The notion that the author won't let X character die because he's the "hero," is based on out-of-story expectations, just as the notion that your character can wade in and attack anything he faces because the DM would never let your party face anything out of their CR range is based on out-of-story expectations.  For me, both lead to equally unsatisfying experiences, YRMV.

I trust my DM, and favorite authors, not to let me get away with that kind of mental shortcut.  I'll admit that I was shocked when the SPOILER event above took place, but I was also pleased.  That event indicated  that GRRM was not just willing to follow a standard, done-a-million-times plot arc, and that I would get to experience the rare treat of reading a novel novel...

It's refreshing in the extreme to see _any_ popular fiction, be it novels, movies, RPG adventures, or any other plot-driven entertainment, diverge from the oh-so-predictable norms.  When is the last time you saw a Hollywood movie seriously diverge from providing a "happy" ending, for example?  <NRG flings poo at cowardly studios>

If you prefer to know precisely who is wearing the white hats and who is wearing the black hats, there is plenty of fiction out there for you to read.  If, however, you prefer a little more subtle portrayal of complicated, ambiguous characters, the Song of Fire and Ice may be for you.  

NRG


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## dpdx (Jan 22, 2003)

I haven't read very many fantasy novels: a couple Pratchett, two thirds of the War of Souls, and the entirety of LotR, but I've read GRRM's Song of Ice and Fire, too, and I'm all caught up there.

I liked it specifically because it was so damn grim. I root for the heroes, too, but when they ALWAYS succeed, it's just so played out. In a way, then, waiting for something good to happen to House Stark is, well... refreshing.

Conversely, when the fourth book comes out, I'll be waiting for some other people to get theirs. The Freys, The Lannisters, Stannis and his evil little necromancer friend, etc. I hope, too, that some of my favorite side characters make a reappearance: the First Sword of Braavos, the leader of that pack of brigands that hangs around the Towers, picking off the Freys, etc.

Anyway, count me among the people that liked it.


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## King_Stannis (Jan 23, 2003)

dpdx said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Conversely, when the fourth book comes out, I'll be waiting for some other people to get theirs. The Freys, The Lannisters, Stannis and his evil little necromancer friend, etc.  *




Spoilers ahoy!
/
/
/
/
/
/
/

Yeah, that Stannis is a monster, the way he saved the Night Watch and all. Oh, and then there's that irritating part about him actually BEING the true king of Westeros. That's neither here nor there, but I'd be a little surly if an incestuously born monster-in-boy's-clothing as well as my little brother jumped my claim to the throne, too. And it's not like Mel has been WRONG on alot of her predictions....

Now the FREY'S, I'm with you, there. As for the Lannisters, well, the worst of them was taken care of at the end of book 3. Jaime, while I hate his guts, has started to at least TRY to redeem himself (if that's possible after pushing a 7 year old out of a window). I presume you don't wish any ill will toward Tyrion, as he is pretty cool. Really the only Lannister that needs her cummupance is Cersei. I wouldn't count on it this soon, but as we all know, anything can happen


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## Mistwell (Jan 23, 2003)

Okay, this thread has done the unexpected.  I'm looking forward to the next book again, and I have a new perspective on the series a bit. Thank you all for your comments.


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## Alaric_Prympax (Jan 23, 2003)

*Bad News*

I just saw on another message board dedicated to the series that _A Feast for Crows_ now has a release date of September 2003 not April.  I checked Amazon.com and they have that date as the expected date too.  I couldn't find the book on B&N.com but since I work at a B&N retail store (we're two different companies) I'll check when I get to work since I know that the book listing was there before.  I work 3-12 today I'll report back when I get home.

Another 8 months...  , 8 months...

[Add on] I just looked at Buy.com and they have an April 1, 2003 release but I've noticed in the past that they're usually a little behind Amazon and B&N.com on some things.


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## KnowTheToe (Jan 23, 2003)

A late release, I can't believe it (heavy sarcasm).

This just means I will put it on my B-Day list and slow down on my second reading of the series.  Since this is covering a gap between his intended story, does this mean no meaningful character deaths?  As long as the Imp becomes king, I don't mind.


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## Alaric_Prympax (Jan 23, 2003)

Well the book was supposed to be out in Fall of 2002 so this is a year delay.  But Martin has not disappointed me yet with this series so I will have to wait for September.


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## jdavis (Jan 23, 2003)

King_Stannis said:
			
		

> *
> 
> But even that may, perhaps, have been done to a greater good. Many have surmised that Jon is really Ned's sister Lyanna's child, begotten from Rhaegar Targaryan. Her "promise" to Ned may have been to never tell of his true origin, which would have lead Robert or any future king to find the boy and kill him - being he was of Targaryan blood.
> 
> ...




I find it odd when people seem suprised by how it turned out for Ned, I saw that one coming from the very start of the book, what suprised me was that Jon Snow hasn't broke out as the main hero yet. Ned was just a side character who's chapters gave a lot of information and his going south put all his children in line to start storylines of their own (except Rickon and I don't have a clue as to where that is going, if anywhere). I still look for Jon to step out as the main character eventually and with Stannis in the North now too things should start to move that way. It should also pick up around Daenerys as other characters ended the last book on boats crossing the ocean.


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## Viking Bastard (Jan 23, 2003)

I agree, Ned had 'Dead Meat' written all over him from the start.

What did surprise me though was HOW he died. 
I pictured him being murdered in his sleep or something similar.


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## Apok (Jan 23, 2003)

mastermind said:
			
		

> *I agree, Ned had 'Dead Meat' written all over him from the start.
> 
> What did surprise me though was HOW he died.
> I pictured him being murdered in his sleep or something similar. *




But you gotta admit, how he died works on so many levels.  Dramatic Irony, baby.  

Yes, I love these books to death.  They are, without a doubt, the best fiction I have ever read and I eagerly await _A Feast for Crows_.


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## Viking Bastard (Jan 23, 2003)

Apok said:
			
		

> *But you gotta admit, how he died works on so many levels.  Dramatic Irony, baby.  *



Never said it didn't, baby, never said it didn't.


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## Alaric_Prympax (Jan 24, 2003)

I just got back from work and the system said that it had a Strict on Sale date of September 1, 2003.


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## Endur (Feb 14, 2003)

*Eddard Stark*

SPOILER SPACE












SPOILER SPACE

Eddard Stark was Lawful Good.  And Martin, as an author, hinted that he was willing to kill good characters off by having Stark dream of the day he fought the King's Guard to rescue his sister, Paladins against Paladins.  "We swore an oath," the leader of the King's Guard said.

Remember that we don't know that Ned Stark fathered a bastard.  Its rumored that Jon might be the son of Ned and the Lady of Starfall.  But, given what we know about Eddard Stark, its more likely that Jon is the son of Lyanna, Eddard's Sister, and Rhaegar Targaryen.

Tom



> _Originally posted by WizarDru _*
> Well, let's be honest, here.  Ned Stark was likeable.  He was not always a hero.  His wife certainly was not happy that he fathered a bastard, then brought him home and paraded him around in front of her and her entire household, treating almost like a legitimate heir.  In a world where inheritance and heraldry carry so much weight, and where a women's greatest contribution is often her progeny...that's no small thing.  Stark also could be downright bloodthirsty, if it called for it.
> *




SPOILER SPACE








SPOILER SPACE


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## Dave Blewer (Feb 14, 2003)

I voted Other...

I do not like the books overall, I love the books and can't wait to read a Feast for Crows... 

The first option did not really define my thoughts on the book...


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## WizarDru (Feb 14, 2003)

Dave Blewer said:
			
		

> *I do not like the books overall, I love the books and can't wait to read a Feast for Crows... *




I'm afraid I'm not following what you're saying, here.  Are you saying you enjoy the individual books, but not the series overall, or what?  The first part of the sentence seems to directly contradict the second part.


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## Dave Blewer (Feb 14, 2003)

Yeah, sorry about that my ability to use my native tongue must have been malfunctioning this morning   

What I meant to say was that,   To say that overall I like the series is underestimating my appreciation of the books.  Overall, implies that you like it in spite of its flaws.  Im my opinion the series has no flaws I love every single sentence. 

A series I like overall inspite of its flaws would be the Simon R Green Deathstalker series. Its hokum, but its extremely fun hokum.


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## WizarDru (Feb 14, 2003)

Dave Blewer said:
			
		

> *A series I like overall inspite of its flaws would be the Simon R Green Deathstalker series. Its hokum, but its extremely fun hokum. *




I tried Simon Green's Hawk and Slayer books, but I just had trouble getting into them.  I might try picking them up again later.  I will say this, he's a pretty amusing speaker.  I saw him at Worldcon a couple of years ago, and he was very funny and very British.


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## myrdden (Feb 14, 2003)

I haven't picked up the third book yet.  I liked the first two mainly because they were quite different.  The biggest deterent to me getting the third book was mainly the oversized paperback format that it was published in.  I do most of my reading on the road since I travel so much for my job.  The oversized format is a bit awkward for me.  I also lost a lot of excitement for the story while waiting for the paperback version of the book.

However, reading this thread has piqued my interest again.  I think I may have to revisit this series.

Myrdden


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## Mistwell (Feb 14, 2003)

I'm liking the short story by George R R Martin taken from this series in the most recent issue of Dragon.


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## GreyOne (Feb 15, 2003)

Best series EVAR.

The Red Wedding still has me all shaken up.


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## WizarDru (Feb 15, 2003)

The Red Wedding has EVERYONE shook up.  I had to put the book down and just sit for a few minutes.  I was in SHOCK.  It was that unexpected.  I've talked to others, and they felt the same way.

But the epilogue of the book.  Oh, my.  A certain family is going to be much smaller, very soon.  Yikes.


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## Storminator (Feb 15, 2003)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> *But the epilogue of the book.  Oh, my.  A certain family is going to be much smaller, very soon.  Yikes. *




I predict it'll go to zero. I've heard too many times how many Frey there are, and they did the bread and salt. Magic is coming back and they broke a very big rule...

PS


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## jdavis (Feb 15, 2003)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> *The Red Wedding has EVERYONE shook up.  I had to put the book down and just sit for a few minutes.  I was in SHOCK.  It was that unexpected.  I've talked to others, and they felt the same way.
> 
> But the epilogue of the book.  Oh, my.  A certain family is going to be much smaller, very soon.  Yikes. *




The Red Wedding was the point where I realized I wasn't in Kansas anymore. Up until then I just thought this was a very good series of books, after that I realized it was much more. Talk about unexpected, talk about violent, that's one of those moments where you have to put the book down to compose yourself.


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## Dr Midnight (Feb 15, 2003)

King_Stannis threw his book across the room when he read the Red Wedding, out of anger and shock. As for me, I read through nervously, thinking that certainly it was a dream sequence or some other trick. It took me two more chapters to realize it had really genuinely happened. 

Ahhh... That and the purchasing of the Unsullied just make for some of the greatest twists I've ever read. 

"A dragon is no slave." 
*whip, scream, attack, kill, victory* 
"MOTHER! MOTHER! MOTHER!" 

Man it's all so good.


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## jdavis (Feb 15, 2003)

Dr Midnight said:
			
		

> *King_Stannis threw his book across the room when he read the Red Wedding, out of anger and shock. As for me, I read through nervously, thinking that certainly it was a dream sequence or some other trick. It took me two more chapters to realize it had really genuinely happened.
> 
> *




If the good guys always win it gets boring, from now on I'm sure people will be ready for anything. It definatly keeps people on their toes, and this is one of the few times when I have hoped that one of the bad guys doesn't get off easy with just dying, I actually look forward to reading about their violent and painful (and hopefully slow) deaths.


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## Dr Midnight (Feb 15, 2003)

OH yeah. I mean, if Walder Frey doesn't die in the worst and most terrible way possible, squeaking and bubbling with impotent fear, I'm going to... ... ...shrug and keep reading, I guess, but I'll be disappointed. 

I'm looking forward to Father Frey's comeuppance almost as much as I'm looking forward to Danaerys roaring into Westeros in a hell of blood and dragon fire. FIRE & BLOOD indeed.


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## Gizzard (Feb 15, 2003)

SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER
SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER
SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER
SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER
SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER
SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER
SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER
SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER
SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER
SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER




> I find it odd when people seem suprised by how it turned out for Ned, I saw that one coming from the very start of the book...




This was the point that shook everyone I know awake and said, "Naptime is over, kids.  This book isnt going to do things the same old way.  If you were expecting white knights and pretty flowers and maybe a perfect unicorn prancing about - well, you better think again."



> I checked Amazon.com and they have that date as the expected date too. I couldn't find the book on B&N.com but since I work at a B&N retail store (we're two different companies) I'll check when I get to work since I know that the book listing was there before.




If you go to GRR Martin's site, he says, "In recognition of the fact that the book has not yet been completed or delivered, my publishers both in the US and UK have finally changed the April pubdate to something more realistic... but until such time as I actually deliver the book, any publication date is pure guesswork," which I thought was nicely understated.  ;-)


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## Squire James (Feb 15, 2003)

Actually, I kinda favor the idea that the (primary) victim of the Red Wedding and a dire-wolf's head is not necessarily an unviable combination when "the magic" gets involved!  I imagine Walder Frey might be a bit... um... unsettled by something like that!

All this sort of presumes a level of magic not yet stated in the series, but there seem to be an awful lot of people who are supposed to be dead walking around.

I'm not quite willing to put my "Jordan fears" to rest yet!  After all, Jordan himself was fine through 3 books, and I don't see anything resembling an end after 3 books here any more than I did for Jordan.  Hopefully, GRRM will learn his lesson from Jordan and Finish His Darn Series before rigor-mortis sets in, but that remains to be seen.


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## ssampier (Feb 17, 2003)

*I love these books!*

I am a fairly picky reader (if I don't get interested in the first six pages I quit reading) and I just love the series.

The writing, the pacing, the excitement. I think someone said it was a "rollercoaster" ride and I agree!

I am on book nine of Jordan's series and I grew bored with it. There is only so many pages that can be occupied by

1) women's stream of consciousness indicating all men are woolheads
2) men's stream of consciousness indicating how women bully them
3) some non descript dark friend gathering plotting against so and so.

As for Martin's series, the characters seem so real. As I have seen in SF-Fantasy reviews that this is not a typical fantasy novel where a farmer boy discovers his 'hidden talent' and saves the world. Far from it, my friends.

The thing that trips me up is George R.R. desire to tell the story from several vantage points. Ocassionally I have to stop and figure out what happen when and where. Generally things are caught up in a few chapters, however.

The first book I read four times two summers ago and I couldn't get enough. I was only able to read the last two once. Now I'm going to re-read them and get the hardback copies to boot. Jordan's series I didn't even keep my old paperbacks (not to mention they were falling apart anyway).

Excellent. I am kinda worried about what to did to the series in the upcoming Dragon and the CCG, however.


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## Harp (Feb 18, 2003)

*A re-read is in order*

I've been avoiding rereading this series for fear that it wouldn't hold the same magic as the first time through, but this list has inspired me to dive back into it.  For one, I take comfort in reading that others have said the second time through was as good or better than the first.  And secondly, the reflections and speculations that have been bandied about on these boards have more than once had me scratching my head and saying, "Hell, I don't remember _that_."

And it sure beats trying to find something worthwhile to read on the bookstore shelves...


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## tleilaxu (Feb 22, 2003)

best fantasy of recent years


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