# The New Dungeons & Dragons Storyline for 2019 Leaked Ahead of Live Stream



## GarrettKP (May 17, 2019)

Now I just need that Eberron Hardcover to be leaked and I will breath a sigh of relief about all my guesses


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## HawaiiSteveO (May 17, 2019)

Well that sounds interesting..!

As a side note, I think Amazon (Canada) messed up as my copy of Ghosts of Saltmarsh was already shipped and will be waiting for me when I get home today!

View attachment 106513


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## Parmandur (May 17, 2019)

Nice set...


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## Ath-kethin (May 17, 2019)

Ties in nicely with the Heroes of Baldur's Gate book that just came out, too. #mrobvious


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## GarrettKP (May 17, 2019)

https://comicbook.com/2019/05/17/du...HxKQ5hno88rXUOlZwYNM7ppECN3OPXrpCIsuc2O2LUSBE

Ummmm, this article mentions a Rick and Morty Starter set... Did NOT see that one coming.


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## Swarmkeeper (May 17, 2019)

Blame Canada!


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## Hutchimus Prime (May 17, 2019)

Comicbook.com is saying a Rick and Morty Starter Set is coming as well: 
https://comicbook.com/gaming/2019/0...lbear-red-dragon-figurines-of-adorable-power/


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## Tales and Chronicles (May 17, 2019)

DM Dave1 said:


> Blame Canada!




I accept the blame for my fellow french Canadians! (though I'm sure Renaud-Bray now belongs to some Chinese mega-corporation) BLAME CHINA! 

I must say that I'm happy that I dont have to wait till 19h here to see the new releases. Its game night tonight and I wont be able to watch the stream till tomorrow night.


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## jgsugden (May 17, 2019)

So is the city of Badur's Gate headed into Avernus?  That is one way to restore Waterdeep as the biggest city along that Sword Coast.


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## Parmandur (May 17, 2019)

GarrettKP said:


> https://comicbook.com/2019/05/17/du...HxKQ5hno88rXUOlZwYNM7ppECN3OPXrpCIsuc2O2LUSBE
> 
> Ummmm, this article mentions a Rick and Morty Starter set... Did NOT see that one coming.




Wonder if it comes with Bone Hill?


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## Parmandur (May 17, 2019)

jgsugden said:


> So is the city of Badur's Gate headed into Avernus?  That is one way to restore Waterdeep as the biggest city along that Sword Coast.




Chris Perkins suggested that Asmodeus tries to suck mortal cities into Avernus for Blood War purposes. This would tie into that if so, and would be suitably epic.


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## Abstruse (May 17, 2019)

Looks like the Comicbook.com article has been edited. The info about Descent into Avernus and the Rick and Morty starter set is all gone. Now it's just about the chibi monster figures and Ghosts of Saltmarsh. Wonder what happened there...


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## Parmandur (May 17, 2019)

Abstruse said:


> Looks like the Comicbook.com article has been edited. The info about Descent into Avernus and the Rick and Morty starter set is all gone. Now it's just about the chibi monster figures and Ghosts of Saltmarsh. Wonder what happened there...




They have the info already, and somebody was sloppy with the time stamp for pushing the article.


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## Morrus (May 17, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> They have the info already, and somebody was sloppy with the time stamp for pushing the article.




Yup. I guess they were under an embargo.


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## Parmandur (May 17, 2019)

Morrus said:


> Yup. I guess they were under an embargo.




They kept the date embargo, but likely somebody missed the "after 5 PM" or whatever part of the memo.


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## Ralif Redhammer (May 17, 2019)

That would be a seriously crazy set-up. I'm super-excited at the prospect of seeing more of the Nine Hells detailed out for 5e and some extraplanar travelling.

As for the leaked Rick & Morty-themed D&D starter set, I'm a little perplexed. That seems like it's coming too close on the heels of the Stranger Things starter set, to the point that it might be hard to get people excited about buying a third one.



Parmandur said:


> Chris Perkins suggested that Asmodeus tries to suck mortal cities into Avernus for Blood War purposes. This would tie into that if so, and would be suitably epic.


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## Abstruse (May 17, 2019)

Ralif Redhammer said:


> As for the leaked Rick & Morty-themed D&D starter set, I'm a little perplexed. That seems like it's coming too close on the heels of the Stranger Things starter set, to the point that it might be hard to get people excited about buying a third one.



These are targeted more at mainstream audiences than existing fans. The sort of people who saw D&D on Stranger Things or Rick and Morty or whatever other shows they may license with (I would've thought Big Bang Theory but that just ended its run) and are curious about it and hey, here's a version based on the thing I'm already a fan of on the shelves of Insert-Big-Box-Store-Name-Here.


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## Jer (May 17, 2019)

Ralif Redhammer said:


> As for the leaked Rick & Morty-themed D&D starter set, I'm a little perplexed. That seems like it's coming too close on the heels of the Stranger Things starter set, to the point that it might be hard to get people excited about buying a third one.




It kind of depends on how they view the purpose of these Start Sets.  Are they for us, the folks who buy D&D stuff, or are they for fans of the brand they're tying in with and any sales to us are incidental?

I suspect the latter.  It's like the bazillion themed Monopoly sets that they put out - is "Game of Thrones" Monopoly for fans of Game of Thrones or for Monopoly collectors?  I'm pretty sure it's the former, and the sales they get from Monopoly collectors are gravy.  I would assume it's the same for these kinds of sets.

(As an aside - I just discovered while looking for a suitably crazy Monopoly example that Warhammer 40K Monopoly exists.  I can't decide if that's amazing, stupid, amazingly stupid or stupidly amazing...)


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## Parmandur (May 17, 2019)

Ralif Redhammer said:


> That would be a seriously crazy set-up. I'm super-excited at the prospect of seeing more of the Nine Hells detailed out for 5e and some extraplanar travelling.
> 
> As for the leaked Rick & Morty-themed D&D starter set, I'm a little perplexed. That seems like it's coming too close on the heels of the Stranger Things starter set, to the point that it might be hard to get people excited about buying a third one.




I doubt WotC expects many folks to buy multiple intro products.


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## DragonBelow (May 17, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> I doubt WotC expects many folks to buy multiple intro products.




Yeah, like those suckers like myself that have 3 versions of the PHB, just because special editions are cool


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## Ralif Redhammer (May 17, 2019)

"Go directly to hell, heretic; do not pass go, do not collect $200"



Jer said:


> (As an aside - I just discovered while looking for a suitably crazy Monopoly example that Warhammer 40K Monopoly exists.  I can't decide if that's amazing, stupid, amazingly stupid or stupidly amazing...)


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## Jestin Lightner (May 17, 2019)

*DM's group for new adventure*



[url]https://www.facebook.com/groups/327324117945372/




[/URL]


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## Storyteller Hero (May 17, 2019)

Fiendish Miniature Giant Space Hamsters.

From Hell.


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## Prakriti (May 17, 2019)

Jer said:


> It kind of depends on how they view the purpose of these Start Sets.  ... It's like the bazillion themed Monopoly sets that they put out



What it is is really smart marketing, and not something I could have predicted even after the Stranger Things Starter Set.

No, we don't need a flood of sub-par themed Starter Sets (D&D: Mama's Family -- help wise-crackin' Mama recover her stolen gold from a horde of goblins! / Desperate Housewives: Waterdeep Edition -- navigate the suburbs of Waterdeep to become the perfect Waterdhavian hausfrau!).

But 1 or 2 per year? That's genius, and likely to result in a lot of new players.


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## Staffan (May 17, 2019)

A thought occured to me. if the title is Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus, that suggests that there's a sequel coming too. Just like last year, we had Waterdeep: Dragon Heist followed by Waterdeep: Dungeon of the Mad Mage.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (May 17, 2019)

I really hope we see the return of the original starter set, or separate (and maybe sturdier) publication of Lost Mines if not.


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## Satyrn (May 17, 2019)

Prakriti said:


> What it is is really smart marketing, and not something I could have predicted even after the Stranger Things Starter Set.




Ha! I did. In our Stranger Things Starter Set thread, even.

Sorry for gloating, I don't get many chances to do so, eh?


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## wizardoest (May 17, 2019)

> D&D: Mama's Family -- help wise-crackin' Mama recover her stolen  gold from a horde of goblins! / Desperate Housewives: Waterdeep Edition  -- navigate the suburbs of Waterdeep to become the perfect Waterdhavian  hausfrau!




I would buy and run either of these in a heartbeat!

AD&D Arrested Development — Now the story of a wealthy group who lost everything, and the one character who had no choice but to keep them all together, it's Arrested Development & Dragons


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## Birmy (May 17, 2019)

I know it's all just marketing, but I've fallen for the hype on this event every year that they've done it. I'm going to buy the books anyway, I don't normally watch streaming games, and my Twitch account gets used for basically just this, but the spectacle of all those people coming together, playing, announcing stuff, the prospect of surprises, interviews, sets, etc. gets me hyped every time. Successful brand management, I suppose.


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## Abstruse (May 17, 2019)

Staffan said:


> A thought occured to me. if the title is Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus, that suggests that there's a sequel coming too. Just like last year, we had Waterdeep: Dragon Heist followed by Waterdeep: Dungeon of the Mad Mage.



It's possible, but there's no other listings that I've been able to dig up. I can't remember if there were any other placeholder listings with the Waterdeep books or if that just got posted later. I guess we'll find out in a few hours.


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## GarrettKP (May 17, 2019)

There won't be a sequel, at least not this year. They are announcing 4 products and we know them for the most part.


Baldurs Gate: Descent into Avernus


Rick and Morty Starter Set


D&D Essentials Kit


That leaves one last announcement, and Nathan Stewart already said we'd be getting a Setting Book this year. So that has to be the last reveal.


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## Parmandur (May 17, 2019)

GarrettKP said:


> There won't be a sequel, at least not this year. They are announcing 4 products and we know them for the most part.
> 
> 
> Baldurs Gate: Descent into Avernus
> ...




This seems solid.

I'm torn between expecting Eberron and Planescape at this point: either would make a fine GGtR type book. If they want to playtest Eberron's unique rules further, Planescape would make a great compliment to a Hell AP.


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## vecna00 (May 17, 2019)

GarrettKP said:


> There won't be a sequel, at least not this year. They are announcing 4 products and we know them for the most part.
> 
> 
> Baldurs Gate: Descent into Avernus
> ...




This is assuming that the Rick & Morty set even counts as a WotC release. The Stranger Things set is a Hasbro release, R&M could be the same. This opens up the possibility of having a Baldur's Gate: Descent into the Nine Hells, or whatever the sequel adventure could be called.


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## Parmandur (May 17, 2019)

vecna00 said:


> This is assuming that the Rick & Morty set even counts as a WotC release. The Stranger Things set is a Hasbro release, R&M could be the same. This opens up the possibility of having a Baldur's Gate: Descent into the Nine Hells, or whatever the sequel adventure could be called.




Well, it probably counts as one of the four products that Nathan Stewart has alluded to being announced this weekend.


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## Abstruse (May 17, 2019)

GarrettKP said:


> There won't be a sequel, at least not this year. They are announcing 4 products and we know them for the most part.
> 
> 
> Baldurs Gate: Descent into Avernus
> ...



The question is if the Rick and Morty set is part of the announcement (or if that's Hasbro Gaming's thing) and, if so, is it separate from the Essentials Kit. Also, there's definitely a dice-and-accessories pack for BGiA coming out since that's on Amazon already (though without the name attached), but whether or not those are counted as "a product" tends to vary from year to year.


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## Parmandur (May 17, 2019)

Abstruse said:


> The question is if the Rick and Morty set is part of the announcement (or if that's Hasbro Gaming's thing) and, if so, is it separate from the Essentials Kit. Also, there's definitely a dice-and-accessories pack for BGiA coming out since that's on Amazon already (though without the name attached), but whether or not those are counted as "a product" tends to vary from year to year.




Or maybe the miscellany pack is the Essentials kit.

Maybe the four products are BG, the Essentials box, the Dice & Miscellany box , and the R&M set. And the Setting book is set for a latter reveal (as happened with Ravnica).


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## GarrettKP (May 17, 2019)

The Essentials Kit and Dice and Miscellany are separate skus on the leaked website and the Kit and Rick and Morty box were listed separate in the comicbook.com article. They are all separate.


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## Parmandur (May 17, 2019)

GarrettKP said:


> The Essentials Kit and Dice and Miscellany are separate skus on the leaked website and the Kit and Rick and Morty box were listed separate in the comicbook.com article. They are all separate.




Touche. Then, we might know all four products set for this weekend, at least on the high level.

Stewart said there would be another major announcement in June/July ("Major AF" he said). Might e the setting will be announced like Ravnica was.


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## GarrettKP (May 17, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> Touche. Then, we might know all four products set for this weekend, at least on the high level.
> 
> Stewart said there would be another major announcement in June/July ("Major AF" he said). Might e the setting will be announced like Ravnica was.




The setting is almost certainly coming Sunday. 

Stewart said they are saving one surprise for Sunday night. 

Comicbook.com announced 3 products (prematurely) after having interviewed the staff last night (all documented on Twitter)

Meaning those 3 products were meant to be announced tonight and a 4th product is being saved for Sunday. 

No way in all hell Nathan Stewart would tease a big reveal for Sunday and make it a dice set.

Seriously people, the dice set isn't one of the 4 products. They wouldn't screw up an announcement that bad.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (May 17, 2019)

Prakriti said:


> Desperate Housewives: Waterdeep Edition





More like The Real Housewives of Waterdeep. Who are the spouses of the famous/celebrity citizens of Waterdeep anyway?

Or The Bachelor starring Elminster as he looks for love with someone who can put up with him.  lol


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## Parmandur (May 17, 2019)

GarrettKP said:


> The setting is almost certainly coming Sunday.
> 
> Stewart said they are saving one surprise for Sunday night.
> 
> ...




Could be they meant for the Rick & Morty box to be the Sunday surprise. Cute capper to the week. I dunno. They did not announce Ravnica at the Stream of Annihilation, it would be in pattern to wait to announce the next book.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (May 17, 2019)

GarrettKP said:


> Comicbook.com announced 3 products (prematurely) after having interviewed the staff last night (all documented on Twitter)
> 
> Meaning those 3 products were meant to be announced tonight and a 4th product is being saved for Sunday.
> 
> ...




Not just those folks. Last night was a big media event, with all sorts of publications invited. We will be flooded with articles once they are allowed to publish them.

And yeah, accessories have never been counted in the big reveals as part of the pre-announced number of products to be revealed.


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## GarrettKP (May 17, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> Could be they meant for the Rick & Morty box to be the Sunday surprise. Cute capper to the week. I dunno. They did not announce Ravnica at the Stream of Annihilation, it would be in pattern to wait to announce the next book.




Jim Zub (writer of the Rick and Morty D&D comics) is on the opening ceremonies list. Rick and Morty Starter was always meant to be announced tonight. Setting Book is coming Sunday.


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## Abstruse (May 17, 2019)

GarrettKP said:


> Seriously people, the dice set isn't one of the 4 products. They wouldn't screw up an announcement that bad.




I don't know...there's been a broken embargo on every single one of these big announcement streams with sites posting information before they're supposed to.


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## Parmandur (May 17, 2019)

GarrettKP said:


> Jim Zub (writer of the Rick and Morty D&D comics) is on the opening ceremonies list. Rick and Morty Starter was always meant to be announced tonight. Setting Book is coming Sunday.




We'll find out soon.


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## HawaiiSteveO (May 17, 2019)

Here’s disclaimer from Saltmarsh book 

View attachment 106514


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## qstor (May 17, 2019)

D&D Community set is the next announcement!


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## Staffan (May 17, 2019)

Abstruse said:


> It's possible, but there's no other listings that I've been able to dig up. I can't remember if there were any other placeholder listings with the Waterdeep books or if that just got posted later. I guess we'll find out in a few hours.




Last year, Dungeon of the Mad Mage was announced during the closing chat. Basically, the designers sitting around talking about the weekend and finishing with "Oh, and we also have this coming in November."


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## Abstruse (May 17, 2019)

Staffan said:


> Last year, Dungeon of the Mad Mage was announced during the closing chat. Basically, the designers sitting around talking about the weekend and finishing with "Oh, and we also have this coming in November."



Oh trust me. I remember that vividly...


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## Demetrios1453 (May 17, 2019)

Abstruse said:


> Oh trust me. I remember that vividly...



So many people were up in arms all weekend that we would only be getting a level 1 - 5 adventure...


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## Parmandur (May 17, 2019)

So it begins, D&D Beyond just put these videos up:

"'Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus' Chris Perkins and Adam Lee Interview"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-yBdYnphH8

@_*Morrus [MENTION=6669048]Abstruse[/MENTION]*_


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## Prakriti (May 17, 2019)

Here's the cover (taken from the D&D Beyond YouTube link above): 

View attachment 106519


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## vecna00 (May 17, 2019)

That cover art looks fantastic!


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## Parmandur (May 17, 2019)

So, the plot does involve the players starting in Baldur's Gate, and finding that there are diabolical forces at work in the city, and that cities around the Western Heartlands are being sucked into Hell.


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## darjr (May 17, 2019)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-yBdYnphH8&feature=youtu.be


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## Abstruse (May 17, 2019)

Okay, think that's all the info we have so far updated in the column now, including the information on the Essentials Kit and the Rick and Morty starter set.


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## Parmandur (May 17, 2019)

So, the Essential's Set will start as a Target exclusive: that's interesting, as the old Starter Set sells like hotcakes at Target from what I have seen.


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## Demetrios1453 (May 17, 2019)

Prakriti said:


> Here's the cover (taken from the D&D Beyond YouTube link above):
> 
> View attachment 106519



Interesting that the symbol in the upper left corner is that of Bhaal, the FR god of murder and assassins. Now, that symbol is often associated with Baldur's Gate itself since the CRPGs with the city's name used it prominently (since Bhaal was an important part of the backstory to those games), but... there was a recent LYSK concerning Bhaal (and Bane and Myrkul) specifically mentioning they were active in Baldur's Gate. So I'm betting they will have something to do with the plot here...


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## Parmandur (May 17, 2019)

Demetrios1453 said:


> Interesting that the symbol in the upper left corner is that of Bhaal, the FR god of murder and assassins. Now, that symbol is often associated with Baldur's Gate itself since the CRPGs with the city's name used it prominently (since Bhaal was an important part of the backstory to those games), but... there was a recent LYSK concerning Bhaal (and Bane and Myrkul) specifically mentioning they were active in Baldur's Gate. So I'm betting they will have something to do with the plot here...




Apparently, the special cover will be Bhaal's symbol apparently.


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## Morrus (May 17, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> So, the Essential's Set will start as a Target exclusive: that's interesting, as the old Starter Set sells like hotcakes at Target from what I have seen.




eBay for me again then, I guess.


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## Parmandur (May 17, 2019)

Morrus said:


> eBay for me again then, I guess.




Well, it says that it will come out other places latter.


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## robus (May 17, 2019)

I love the “warmly received” description of the Stranger Things starter set... I guess “hated with the heat of nine suns” could be described as “warm”?!

A Chris Perkins authored starter set also fills me with trepidation, I don’t trust his judgement at all.


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## Prakriti (May 17, 2019)

For those who aren't checking the first post and its updates, the Essentials Kit and adventure-book details have been released (spoiled?) by D&D Beyond: 

https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/495-live-from-the-descent-d-ds-next-story-unveiled

The Essentials Kit is basically a Starter Set 2.0, and it includes a new level 1-6 adventure written by Chris Perkins. If it's as good as LMoP, then I'm very excited for this one.


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## Abstruse (May 17, 2019)

Morrus said:


> eBay for me again then, I guess.



I've got a Target less than a mile from me. Though shipping might be more expensive from me than eBay...


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## lordstimpy (May 17, 2019)

So a Hydro74 cover? Hopefully I can preorder when I pick up the special cover of Saltmarsh


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## Demetrios1453 (May 17, 2019)

To build upon my earlier post, I wonder if the events of the CRPG (which are in general considered canon for the setting) will somehow be involved. Bhaal and/or his cultists might somehow revive some of the power of the Bhaalspawn? Granted, that would likely be just one of many probable plotlines involved here...


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## Abstruse (May 17, 2019)

Okay, more photos and screenshots...if anyone hasn't checked the main article in a while, it's changed a LOOOOOT since it was posted. Lots of photos of the new products, cover images from WotC, a trailer for the new adventure, and a flyer for a new "mini"ature from WizKids of...what looks like something out of Mad Max: Fury Road.


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## darjr (May 17, 2019)

https://twitter.com/newbiedm/status/1129500818099412992?s=21

Includes rules for solo 1+1 play. DM and 1 player. Uses modified sidekick rules from Unearthed Arcana.


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## Parmandur (May 17, 2019)

It looks like the Mad Max Infernal Engines in Avernus might actually be using the vehicle rules also seen in Ghost's of Saltmarsh...


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## Prakriti (May 17, 2019)

Abstruse said:


> View attachment 106522​




Looks like the new Essentials adventure will take place in Phandalin too. Icespire Peak appears on the _Lost Mine of Phandelver_ map, but I don't believe it's detailed in the adventure.​


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## vecna00 (May 17, 2019)

Pooooop!

https://twitter.com/newbiedm/status/1129510649308966912


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## Abstruse (May 17, 2019)

Prakriti said:


> Looks like the new Essentials adventure will take place in Phandalin too. Icespire Peak appears on the _Lost Mine of Phandelver_ map, but I don't believe it's detailed in the adventure.



It's not. I think it's only on the map because it's a map of that section of the Sword Coast, same with Baldur's Gate and Waterdeep, neither of which feature in the adventure outside of I think the party's originally hired in Waterdeep to guard the cart full of mining equipment that sets off the whole adventure...

I always hoped they'd go back to Phandalin because that adventure is one of the best introductory adventures I've ever seen and the setting and NPCs are a lot of fun to play.


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## Parmandur (May 17, 2019)

vecna00 said:


> Pooooop!
> 
> https://twitter.com/newbiedm/status/1129510649308966912




Well, the setting book for the year might still be Planescape, even if this adventure is more focused.


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## Abstruse (May 17, 2019)

Okay, time for the big announcement on the stream...let's see what they have. Make sure to check the main column for updates.


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## GarrettKP (May 17, 2019)

Man they REALLY changed Zariels design in this. That is her on the cover, and she looks nothing like the picture in Tome of Foes.


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## Abstruse (May 17, 2019)

GarrettKP said:


> Man they REALLY changed Zariels design in this. That is her on the cover, and she looks nothing like the picture in Tome of Foes.



I'm not 100% sure that's Zariel on the cover. It may be the unnamed fallen angel mentioned in the description from D&D Beyond. Or if it is Zariel, it's possible there's different forms.


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## GarrettKP (May 18, 2019)

Abstruse said:


> I'm not 100% sure that's Zariel on the cover. It may be the unnamed fallen angel mentioned in the description from D&D Beyond. Or if it is Zariel, it's possible there's different forms.




It is her. They show off more of her art in the D&D Beyond videos.


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## pukunui (May 18, 2019)

Abstruse said:


> I'm not 100% sure that's Zariel on the cover. It may be the unnamed fallen angel mentioned in the description from D&D Beyond. Or if it is Zariel, it's possible there's different forms.



Zariel *is* a fallen angel. The blindfolded celestial in the main artwork for the stream is also meant to be her. Unless there's another fallen angel involved in the story, that is probably her on the cover. Perhaps she can change her form. Or perhaps WotC just didn't enforce any consistency in her look, like they do with dragons and goblins and the like.


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## TheWriterFantastic™ (May 18, 2019)

robus said:


> I love the “warmly received” description of the Stranger Things starter set... I guess “hated with the heat of nine suns” could be described as “warm”?!




"Hated with the heat of nine suns"? That's more hyperbolic than the warmly received claim.

Yes, a few of the complaints about the Stranger Things themed set are the same complaints about the 2014 Starter Set - the bare rules and limited fiddly bits, which were by design to keep the cost of the set low. Manufacturing costs are higher for boxed sets than for the books, proportionately speaking, and they wanted to keep buy in low for new players. The base price difference between the two sets is minimal, and it's at least partially to cover the licensed art and pieces in this set that aren't analogous to the 2014 set: the two demogorgon minis. The main point of the set was the pull fans of Stranger Things in as new D&D players with the minor collector's item cache the set claims.
The primary complaint is that some of the negative reviewers were expecting to play a game set in Stranger Things, not D&D, despite all advertisements and product descriptive copy explaining that it's an adventure written by Mike Wheeler using the PCs inspired by Will, Dustin, Lucas, Eleven, and Mike's party roles - it never stated that it was based in modern-day Hawkins, or the Upside Down. It's a gateway for non-gamers, and all the complaints are from hardcore D&D grognards. The positive reviews are solid - sure, it may not be burning up the charts, but calling it "warmly received" would be an accurate descriptor. And the price difference is negligible: roughly a large coffee.



> A Chris Perkins authored starter set also fills me with trepidation, I don’t trust his judgement at all.




Sorry to hear you're not a fan, but a lot of others are - Curse of Strahd, which won the ENNIE for Best Adventure in 2016 (and Best Cover/Art, and runner-up for Best Product), was his project. Sure it was an adaptation of I6: Ravenloft, but drastically expanded I6 for 5E. Given his bibliography of content produced, including a majority of the Shackled City adventure path (also an ENNIE award winner), I'm looking forward to the Essentials Kit. I'm not sure what's soured you on his work, but it might be worth giving some of his other products a look.


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## lordstimpy (May 18, 2019)

They just said its Zariel on the cover on the stream


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## vpuigdoller (May 18, 2019)

Morrus said:


> eBay for me again then, I guess.




Same here, meh.... Thats the one I want the most.


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## lordstimpy (May 18, 2019)

vpuigdoller said:


> Same here, meh.... Thats the one I want the most.



Target has a website.  The red card gets you 5%off.


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## Abstruse (May 18, 2019)

lordstimpy said:


> Target has a website.  The red card gets you 5%off.



I think the complaints are from people outside the United States...


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## pedr (May 18, 2019)

Abstruse said:


> I think the complaints are from people outside the United States...



Yeah, I'm a little annoyed that I'll probably have to wait a bit, but it'll be in general distribution worldwide - the D&D Beyond article says it'll be released to all channels on 3rd September so it's only a two month delay.


----------



## Ash Mantle (May 18, 2019)

Prakriti said:


> Here's the cover (taken from the D&D Beyond YouTube link above):
> 
> View attachment 106519




That cover looks amazing! As is some of the art they've been teasing on D&D Beyond. 

Apparently you could even play as a merchant in the Blood War and never even have to deal with the mess that is the Blood War. 

Other than the Mad Max vibes associated with the adventure, I also feel DOOM and even 40K vibes, and that's definitely something I want to explore further.


----------



## pukunui (May 18, 2019)

This all sounds pretty cool, but it's going to be coming out at the same time as _Odyssey of the Dragonlords_, which I have kickstarted, so I think it will have to wait ...

The Mad Max aspect of it is pretty cool, though. I enjoyed Fury Road.


----------



## Ash Mantle (May 18, 2019)

Abstruse said:


> *Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus*
> This adventure spans levels 1 through 13, starting with low-level adventures in Baldur’s Gate, the dark and gritty metropolis which lead designer Adam Lee describes as “the Gotham [City] of the Sword Coast.” Starting a campaign in Baldur’s Gate is wildly different from starting a campaign in bright, shiny Waterdeep, and it perfectly suits a campaign that is destined to go straight to Hell. Introducing more than just the city of Baldur’s Gate, this adventure also opens up the massive sandbox environment of Avernus.​





Oh sweet, will this also mean there'll be a Batman of Baldur's Gate (maybe that's where all of our PCs come in)? Cos they've been saying there's a twisted eladrin called Smiler, driven by cruelty and all the particular ways of harming people, as someone you can interact with. 


Also much kudos to those who guessed the supplements correctly! The fact that Baldur's Gate and the Nine Hells were so closely tied in the LYSK segments was also mighty suspicious. Hopefully the new adventure could contain similar backgrounds to the ones we got in Guildmasters' Guide to Ravnica, planar backgrounds tied to the all of the planar factions of Planescape.​


----------



## Burnside (May 18, 2019)

I really have to commend them for this stream being so much better so far than the Stream of Many Eyes, which frankly was kinda cringe-y. They correctly gave all the hosting duties to Anna Prosser, and it's just games and interviews about the new stuff. So much less awkward.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (May 18, 2019)

Ash Mantle said:


> That cover looks amazing! As is some of the art they've been teasing on D&D Beyond.
> 
> Apparently you could even play as a merchant in the Blood War and never even have to deal with the mess that is the Blood War.
> 
> Other than the Mad Max vibes associated with the adventure, I also feel DOOM and even 40K vibes, and that's definitely something I want to explore further.




Like with MtoF, I'm torn, as both the regular cover art and the Hydro74 special edition cover art are both sooooo good...


----------



## Abstruse (May 18, 2019)

Burnside said:


> I really have to commend them for this stream being so much better so far than the Stream of Many Eyes, which frankly was kinda cringe-y. They correctly gave all the hosting duties to Anna Prosser, and it's just games and interviews about the new stuff. So much less awkward.



I really wish they'd hire NewbieDM as director frankly. He has the knowledge and experience to do this right and the passion for the subject matter. The camera angles and changes are really, really bad. It's been jarring to me constantly trying to cover this and I actually scared my cats out of the room yelling about poor framing on Anna Prosser at one point is was bothering me so badly.


----------



## This Effin’ GM (May 18, 2019)

No setting announcement. Dang I watched that whole thing.


----------



## darjr (May 18, 2019)

Wait for Sunday


----------



## nicolas.carrillos (May 18, 2019)

No Eberron announcement (yet)?


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (May 18, 2019)

pukunui said:


> This all sounds pretty cool, but it's going to be coming out at the same time as _Odyssey of the Dragonlords_, which I have kickstarted, so I think it will have to wait ...



Yeah, as genuinely cool as this sounds, it's likely a skip for me. Now, if they announce some sort of Planescape player-friendly book on Sunday, which seems likely, I'd be in for that.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (May 18, 2019)

darjr said:


> Wait for Sunday




Yeah, after last year's Sunday surprise (_Dungeon of the Mad Mage_), I'm not going to consider the announcements complete until the event closes down...


----------



## MockingBird (May 18, 2019)

And here I thought I was done buying books...


----------



## Prakriti (May 18, 2019)

Burnside said:


> I really have to commend them for this stream being so much better so far than the Stream of Many Eyes, which frankly was kinda cringe-y. They correctly gave all the hosting duties to Anna Prosser, and it's just games and interviews about the new stuff. So much less awkward.



Yeah, this format reminds me of the stream they did for _Storm King's Thunder_ in 2016. The presence of a live audience makes a big difference.


----------



## Prakriti (May 18, 2019)

Abstruse said:


> I really wish they'd hire NewbieDM as director frankly. He has the knowledge and experience to do this right and the passion for the subject matter. The camera angles and changes are really, really bad. It's been jarring to me constantly trying to cover this and I actually scared my cats out of the room yelling about poor framing on Anna Prosser at one point is was bothering me so badly.



I haven't been watching enough to notice, but as someone who is also bothered by poor camera-work, I feel your pain.


Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Yeah, as genuinely cool as this sounds, it's likely a skip for me. Now, if they announce some sort of Planescape player-friendly book on Sunday, which seems likely, I'd be in for that.



Yeah, this is not the planar adventure I've been waiting for. But I'm kind of down on hardcover adventures in general. I have too many sitting on the shelf unplayed to justify buying another one.


----------



## silentdante (May 18, 2019)

Morrus said:


> eBay for me again then, I guess.





you cant just wait till september?

i mean i get it that june to september is a huge exclusive window for Target, but... i suppose for review purposes it sucks.

i am actually surprised there isnt more Hasbro interference on how wizards/D&D release stuff and how they handle exclusive releases. also i think they have done well for wizards/D&D with the IP tie in, the rick and morty thing sounds fantastic, and i personally enjoyed the stranger things tie in, i also got it for 12 dollars.


----------



## Abstruse (May 18, 2019)

And I am officially done with covering this until Sunday. Keep your eyes peeled on this thread and on EN World as other bits develop over the weekend, and don't forget we've got the "big" "secret" announcement that will be campaign setting related according to Nathan Stewart that's coming Sunday. And it's totally going to be Planescape. I mean they announced the new Rick & Morty comic is about "Painscape" and no one under 30 knows what the hell that's a reference to unless they make it the new campaign setting...

As for me..I'm going back to Shadowrun for the weekend. Have fun!


----------



## This Effin’ GM (May 18, 2019)

BeadleAndGrimm made a platinum edition last year for a game that, turns out, was two different adventures. They made a silver edition for a game with one book. I wonder if their announcement of a platinum edition for Descent  is an unintentional spoiler that there is a second book being announced this weekend


----------



## M.T. Black (May 18, 2019)

Some of you follow my columns here on EnWorld. I'm thrilled to share with you that I was one of the writers on "Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus" 

https://twitter.com/MTBlack2567/


----------



## pukunui (May 18, 2019)

I wonder if there will be any tie-in with _Murder in Baldur's Gate_ at all.

I also wonder if the reference to Fort Morninglord's fiery destruction, as mentioned in the _Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide_, was foreshadowing for this plotline.

EDIT: If Elturel has been sucked into Avernus, I wonder what has happened to its second, magical, undead-repulsing sun? Is it still shining over the burned out crater, or did it get transported too? So many questions!



Marcelus14 said:


> BeadleAndGrimm made a platinum edition last year for a game that, turns out, was two different adventures. They made a silver edition for a game with one book. I wonder if their announcement of a platinum edition for Descent  is an unintentional spoiler that there is a second book being announced this weekend



Yeah, but their first platinum edition was just for _Dragon Heist_, wasn't it? I didn't think it also included material from DotMM.


----------



## This Effin’ GM (May 18, 2019)

Right but it would use the same stuff for both games making the investment not as harsh


----------



## Parmandur (May 18, 2019)

pukunui said:


> I wonder if there will be any tie-in with _Murder in Baldur's Gate_ at all.
> 
> I also wonder if the reference to Fort Morninglord's fiery destruction, as mentioned in the _Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide_, was foreshadowing for this plotline.
> 
> Yeah, but their first platinum edition was just for _Dragon Heist_, wasn't it? I didn't think it also included material from DotMM.




It does seem they've been thinking about this plotline since Out of the Abyss, at least, which was written alongside the SCAG.


----------



## pukunui (May 18, 2019)

Marcelus14 said:


> Right but it would use the same stuff for both games making the investment not as harsh



Does it? I didn't think it did. The two Waterdeep adventures have only the loosest connections.


----------



## Parmandur (May 18, 2019)

Marcelus14 said:


> Right but it would use the same stuff for both games making the investment not as harsh




There was nothing DotMM related on the premium box set, so no, I doubt it.


----------



## This Effin’ GM (May 18, 2019)

Sure but the adventure still assumes you don’t sleep in the dungeon and gives you a lot of ways to go back up to waterdeep and enjoy your time. It’s just a theory anyway.


----------



## darjr (May 18, 2019)

https://twitter.com/abstruse/status/1129550204011720706?s=21

The new Rick & Morty miniseries takes place in "Painscape" so...have fun speculating with that until the announcement comes Sunday


----------



## pukunui (May 18, 2019)

Prakriti said:


> Yeah, this is not the planar adventure I've been waiting for.



I'd love for them to do an adventure that spans the elemental planes. One that visits the City of Brass, the wind dukes of Aaqa, and so on.

A 5e version of the Great Modron March would be cool too, and it's not like they haven't been teasing that since the core rulebooks ...


----------



## This Effin’ GM (May 18, 2019)

Have you seen froggodgames City of Brass? It’s pretty good.


----------



## darjr (May 18, 2019)

View attachment 106527


----------



## pukunui (May 18, 2019)

Marcelus14 said:


> Have you seen froggodgames City of Brass? It’s pretty good.



I have not.


----------



## Ash Mantle (May 18, 2019)

Staffan said:


> A thought occured to me. if the title is Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus, that suggests that there's a sequel coming too. Just like last year, we had Waterdeep: Dragon Heist followed by Waterdeep: Dungeon of the Mad Mage.




If the possibility of redemption is open to everyone, or even possibly everything (and since cities on the material plane can be physically dragged into Hell), what if the second titled adventure is called Baldur's Gate Rises?


----------



## Parmandur (May 18, 2019)

darjr said:


> https://twitter.com/abstruse/status/1129550204011720706?s=21
> 
> The new Rick & Morty miniseries takes place in "Painscape" so...have fun speculating with that until the announcement comes Sunday




Begin speculation:

They will release a Planescape book similar to Guildmasters Guide to Ravnica.

Here ends the speculation.


----------



## Ash Mantle (May 18, 2019)

OK, there's a Puzzle Box for Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus. 

View attachment 106530
SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY PAIN!

Someway, somehow, I'm including the Lament Configuration and Pathfinder's kytons into the mix.


----------



## gyor (May 18, 2019)

On youtube D&D beyond has all kinds of videos on Baldar's Gate: Avernus.

 Soul coins are cool, except they are horrifically to fuel the Infernal War Machines, which slowly and painfully destroys the the soul in the coin. Which means for good characters the Infernal War Machines are useless. Using one that way should instantly damn the soul killer, and immediate change the alignment to Chaotic evil.


----------



## gyor (May 18, 2019)

The Irony is that with cities being sucked into hell if Tiamat  escaped, she'd arrive to find everyone gone to the hell she fled from.


----------



## Parmandur (May 18, 2019)

gyor said:


> On youtube D&D beyond has all kinds of videos on Baldar's Gate: Avernus.
> 
> Soul coins are cool, except they are horrifically to fuel the Infernal War Machines, which slowly and painfully destroys the the soul in the coin. Which means for good characters the Infernal War Machines are useless. Using one that way should instantly damn the soul killer, and immediate change the alignment to Chaotic evil.




Well, Evil, not necessarily Chaotic. Perkins also suggested that the "fuel" lasts a long time, so a at least Neutral party might be able to use one that is already fueled to finish the storyline.


----------



## Ash Mantle (May 18, 2019)

gyor said:


> The Irony is that with cities being sucked into hell if Tiamat  escaped, she'd arrive to find everyone gone to the hell she fled from.




The next adventure: Baldur's Gate: Tiamat Arises into Crisis.


----------



## DMZ2112 (May 18, 2019)

WotC's marketing department said:
			
		

> A full five years will have passed between the release of the original Starter Set and the release of the new D&D Essentials Kit, giving its creators five years of lessons learned to make the new player experience the best it can possibly be.




"D&D Essentials," huh?  Really, guys?  _Too soon. _ In fact, it will never _not_ be too soon.  Just remove that word from the branding lexicon now.  Maybe set it on fire, maybe pee on the ashes.  Better safe than sorry.



Abstruse said:


> I mean they announced the new Rick & Morty comic is about "Painscape" and no one under 30 knows what the hell that's a reference to unless they make it the new campaign setting...




Half Life 3 confirmed.

If we are getting a new setting announcement I doubt it will be until June.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?658502-Announcement-after-The-Descent

Planescape would be a logical way to expand D&D5's core setting, but these blurbs from Descent into Avernus make me nervous.  The World Axis worked for D&D4 because they started from scratch.  If they're going to trundle out the old branding just to gut it, I'll be very disappointed.  

It sure looked like they learned this lesson from what happened with the Forgotten Realms; I hope that was not a fluke.  These settings need updates, not reboots.


----------



## silentdante (May 18, 2019)

weird thing, has anyone noticed even though he was scheduled, Mike Mearls has not been on the stream as far as i have seen.

i dont know what the controversy was/is with him, but is it really that bad? his name was on the reveal part of today and no him.
looking now, he is no where on the page, so maybe i imagined it? or he just got removed like some of the DCA people?


----------



## Abstruse (May 18, 2019)

silentdante said:


> weird thing, has anyone noticed even though he was scheduled, Mike Mearls has not been on the stream as far as i have seen.
> 
> i dont know what the controversy was/is with him, but is it really that bad? his name was on the reveal part of today and no him.
> looking now, he is no where on the page, so maybe i imagined it? or he just got removed like some of the DCA people?



Mearls wasn't listed on the main schedule on the WotC page. If he was listed appearing anywhere else, I haven't seen it. As far as controversy, he's been pretty radio silent since his initial statement following the accusations against Zak S. of sexual abuse from his former partners. Similarly, the cast of Dice, Camera, Action is noticeably absent from the rather large cast of D&D streamers for the show.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (May 18, 2019)

There are quite a few more videos from D&D Beyond on BG: DtA (do I get credit for being the first to use the abbreviation?). Some interesting stuff in these, especially in the "Friends and Fiends" one. One demon lord that wasn't in OotA or in MtoF gets a couple of mentions in the videos (it would be nice to see him get statted up!), as well as at least one celestial creature that will be getting its official introduction to 5e...


----------



## silentdante (May 18, 2019)

Abstruse said:


> Mearls wasn't listed on the main schedule on the WotC page. If he was listed appearing anywhere else, I haven't seen it. As far as controversy, he's been pretty radio silent since his initial statement following the accusations against Zak S. of sexual abuse from his former partners. Similarly, the cast of Dice, Camera, Action is noticeably absent from the rather large cast of D&D streamers for the show.




yeah i think you are right, i must have imagined him being there, as the way back machine only shows the 2 DCA people who are part of that controversy but no Mearls anywhere.

thanks! great coverage too, thank you for doing it.


----------



## Abstruse (May 18, 2019)

Demetrios1453 said:


> There are quite a few more videos from D&D Beyond on BG: DtA (do I get credit for being the first to use the abbreviation?).



Nope, I did BG : DTA earlier this thread...I just got caught by the auto-emote feature of the site that turns the colon-D into  so it looks like BGTA.


----------



## MonsterEnvy (May 18, 2019)

Abstruse said:


> Mearls wasn't listed on the main schedule on the WotC page. If he was listed appearing anywhere else, I haven't seen it. As far as controversy, he's been pretty radio silent since his initial statement following the accusations against Zak S. of sexual abuse from his former partners. Similarly, the cast of Dice, Camera, Action is noticeably absent from the rather large cast of D&D streamers for the show.




Anna is there.


----------



## ssvegeta555 (May 18, 2019)

Meh, the only thing that even peaked my interest is the Essentials starter set (not sure why they used Essentials again but whatever) and only because of the 1 on 1 variant rules. I'd like to see how that works and if it's something that can be used for all levels of play.


----------



## darjr (May 18, 2019)

MonsterEnvy said:


> Anna is there.




And Chris Perkins.


----------



## robus (May 18, 2019)

TheWriterFantastic™ said:


> "Hated with the heat of nine suns"? That's more hyperbolic than the warmly received claim.




Yeah I was trying to be funny. And I’m not sure there’s been many (any?) positive reviews of that starter set.



> Sorry to hear you're not a fan, but a lot of others are - Curse of Strahd, which won the ENNIE for Best Adventure in 2016 (and Best Cover/Art, and runner-up for Best Product), was his project. Sure it was an adaptation of I6: Ravenloft, but drastically expanded I6 for 5E. Given his bibliography of content produced, including a majority of the Shackled City adventure path (also an ENNIE award winner), I'm looking forward to the Essentials Kit. I'm not sure what's soured you on his work, but it might be worth giving some of his other products a look.




I believe he has his hand in pretty much every product so far? I think he’s the one who likes to inject silliness into the products? My players bring enough of that without WotC adding more.

I dunno, I think I’m just burnt out on WotC adventures, they just don’t work for me I’m finding. Time to go it alone.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (May 18, 2019)

robus said:


> I dunno, I think I’m just burnt out on WotC adventures, they just don’t work for me I’m finding. Time to go it alone.




I find I don't get much use out of the "Adventure Path" format (for which I blame Paizo). I prefer to use my own story arc for a campaign. What I do find useful are short adventures, dungeons and locations that I can drop into a campaign to save me doing _all_ the work.


----------



## Parmandur (May 18, 2019)

Paul Farquhar said:


> I find I don't get much use out of the "Adventure Path" format (for which I blame Paizo). I prefer to use my own story arc for a campaign. What I do find useful are short adventures, dungeons and locations that I can drop into a campaign to save me doing _all_ the work.




#lifehack: you can do that by cannibalising the APs: Perkins has basically said he plans them out for such a purpose.


----------



## pukunui (May 18, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> #lifehack: you can do that by cannibalising the APs: Perkins has basically said he plans them out for such a purpose.



This. You can pretty much cut and paste any bit from any of the 5e campaigns. Need a giant lair? Grab one from SKT. Need a castle in a swamp? Use Castle Naerytar from HotDQ. Need a wizard's tower in a city? Use Kolat Towers from W: DH. And so on.


----------



## EthanSental (May 18, 2019)

M.T. Black said:


> Some of you follow my columns here on EnWorld. I'm thrilled to share with you that I was one of the writers on "Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus"
> 
> https://twitter.com/MTBlack2567/




nice! I’ve enjoyed your DMs Guild product too, top notch. 

I’ve enjoyed the new storyline and product ties, few more things to add to my collection it seems.


----------



## darjr (May 18, 2019)

robus said:


> Yeah I was trying to be funny. And I’m not sure there’s been many (any?) positive reviews of that starter set.




Actually just the opposite. It’s been lauded. Where have you been?

https://www.google.com/search?q=D&D...j0j7&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8


----------



## Demetrios1453 (May 18, 2019)

pukunui said:


> This. You can pretty much cut and paste any bit from any of the 5e campaigns. Need a giant lair? Grab one from SKT. Need a castle in a swamp? Use Castle Naerytar from HotDQ. Need a wizard's tower in a city? Use Kolat Towers from WH. And so on.




I was about to mention SKT myself, but I'll put in a nod to Dungeon of the Mad Mage instead - virtually every level could easily be removed individually and used as a stand-alone adventure. Druid grove? Dwarven ruin? Evil Hogwarts? Githyanki base? Cursed mansion? All those and more are available!


----------



## briggart (May 18, 2019)

DMZ2112 said:


> "D&D Essentials," huh?  Really, guys?  _Too soon. _ In fact, it will never _not_ be too soon.  Just remove that word from the branding lexicon now.  Maybe set it on fire, maybe pee on the ashes.  Better safe than sorry.




well, urine+ash is a pretty good fertilizer, so ...


----------



## Paul Farquhar (May 18, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> #lifehack: you can do that by cannibalising the APs: Perkins has basically said he plans them out for such a purpose.




Yup - but its an expensive way of doing things.


----------



## mach1.9pants (May 18, 2019)

NVM


----------



## pukunui (May 18, 2019)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Yup - but its an expensive way of doing things.



For us, maybe, but it's probably cheaper for them to do it that way than release a whole lot of smaller, individual products.


----------



## Morrus (May 18, 2019)

Paul Farquhar said:


> I find I don't get much use out of the "Adventure Path" format (for which I blame Paizo).




They go back waaaay before that!


----------



## Joseph Nardo (May 18, 2019)

Morrus said:


> They go back waaaay before that!
> 
> View attachment 106543



uh.........those beautiful, beautiful, modules of beauty


----------



## dalisprime (May 18, 2019)

To be honest, the APs are this edition's setting material as well. Yes we had bits and bobs in scag, vgtm and mtof but the most detailed setting material for forgotten realms is in the adventures. Curious to see how they changed BG from its depiction in Murder in Baldur's Gate.


----------



## Zarithar (May 18, 2019)

These all look great. Sign me up!


----------



## Paul Farquhar (May 18, 2019)

pukunui said:


> For us, maybe, but it's probably cheaper for them to do it that way than release a whole lot of smaller, individual products.




I would rather have more books like TftYP, with a random selection of adventures and no connecting plot.


----------



## pogre (May 18, 2019)

I think it is great Beadle & Grimm's Platinum Editions seem to be economically viable for the company. Those products are not for me, but it is cool stuff for folks who want ready made figs, props, battle maps, and play aids.

I'm a tiny bit disappointed the adventure is 1st - 13th level. I hold out hope for some higher level stuff to be announced Sunday - even though it looks like it will be a campaign setting.

I may run at least parts of the adventure so I can use my Dwarven Forge Hellscape and Den of Evil sets.


----------



## gyor (May 18, 2019)

ssvegeta555 said:


> Meh, the only thing that even peaked my interest is the Essentials starter set (not sure why they used Essentials again but whatever) and only because of the 1 on 1 variant rules. I'd like to see how that works and if it's something that can be used for all levels of play.




 Your probably better off waiting for the Beowulf kickstarter that does the same thing.


----------



## Morrus (May 18, 2019)

silentdante said:


> you cant just wait till september?




I’d be doing my job very poorly if I did. 



> the stranger things tie in, i also got it for 12 dollars.




Amazon UK has it for £40. Luckily a friend in the US has sent me one.


----------



## Parmandur (May 18, 2019)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Yup - but its an expensive way of doing things.




Well, sure, you can also just make everything yourself, way cheaper. But organizing buckets of content around a theme, like Giants or Hell, makes sense for WotC, and it is easier to remove plot than to add plot.


----------



## palikhov (May 18, 2019)

Who is Variel? Wrong name for Zariel or long dead deva from Circle of Skulls novel?


----------



## DMZ2112 (May 18, 2019)

briggart said:


> well, urine+ash is a pretty good fertilizer, so ...




_For other things._


----------



## Ash Mantle (May 18, 2019)

Demetrios1453 said:


> Like with MtoF, I'm torn, as both the regular cover art and the Hydro74 special edition cover art are both sooooo good...




Oh damn (no pun intended), just had a chance to look at both covers side by side, they're both very well done. So, what harm is getting both covers?  I mean


----------



## Ash Mantle (May 18, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> #lifehack: you can do that by cannibalising the APs: Perkins has basically said he plans them out for such a purpose.




Yeah, I basically buy and use them for this purpose, though if the adventure is good enough I just try to tie in the PCs' stories into the overarching adventure story. I'm too tempted not to include some cool areas or ideas from the different APs though, and from other systems, especially from Pathfinder's APs.


----------



## Parmandur (May 18, 2019)

Ash Mantle said:


> Yeah, I basically buy and use them for this purpose, though if the adventure is good enough I just try to tie in the PCs' stories into the overarching adventure story. I'm too tempted not to include some cool areas or ideas from the different APs though, and from other systems, especially from Pathfinder's APs.




I think that is why they keep using the Sword Coast, and putting in Easter Eggs for other APs: makes it easy for DMs to creatively remix, or turn the Sword Coast into a gigantic sandbox with bits and pieces from different APs.


----------



## gyor (May 18, 2019)

Will involve the Blood War and Outer Planes, starting in Hell. "You can only go up from there, right?" - Chris Perkins.

 I think this is another hint that Planescape is coming, because this adventure only deals with Avernus, not other outer planes. 

 Plus the Painscape,  plus this adventure would fit as much with Planescape as it does FR.


----------



## Parmandur (May 18, 2019)

gyor said:


> Will involve the Blood War and Outer Planes, starting in Hell. "You can only go up from there, right?" - Chris Perkins.
> 
> I think this is another hint that Planescape is coming, because this adventure only deals with Avernus, not other outer planes.
> 
> Plus the Painscape,  plus this adventure would fit as much with Planescape as it does FR.




It would also fit the material in MToF that isn't Hell related.

I can see a Planescape book, with new Race and Subclass options, with some Background stuff, a Gazeeter for Sigil similar to Ravnica and monsters. So, many, monsters.


----------



## gyor (May 18, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> It would also fit the material in MToF that isn't Hell related.
> 
> I can see a Planescape book, with new Race and Subclass options, with some Background stuff, a Gazeeter for Sigil similar to Ravnica and monsters. So, many, monsters.




 MTOF doesn't meaningfully deal with the other outer planes.


----------



## Parmandur (May 18, 2019)

gyor said:


> MTOF doesn't meaningfully deal with the other outer planes.




Sure, the Abyss gets some in depth treatment. There are hooks there for other stuff.


----------



## Sword of Spirit (May 18, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> and it is easier to remove plot than to add plot.




I feel exactly the opposite way.


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## Parmandur (May 18, 2019)

Sword of Spirit said:


> I feel exactly the opposite way.




But why? Every AP that WotC has put out has a very thin veneer of plot that can be removed with nearly no effort, yet is enough to link together the material for a DM. Take Tomb of Annihilation for example: just never mention the "main plot," and you can run the first two chapters easily as a general city and hexcrawl sandbox, no fuss no muss.

Removing material is always easier than adding material.


----------



## gyor (May 18, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> Sure, the Abyss gets some in depth treatment. There are hooks there for other stuff.




 I'll give you the Abyss,  the other main side of the Blood War,  but no other outer planes really get explored,  almost nothing for the Upper Planes beyond some details on some demihuman Gods and a few on Evermeet which sort of counts at best, nothing for Mechanus,  nothing for Sigil or the Outlands, nothing for Archeron,  one monster I think for Pandonium,  some Yugoloths for Grey Wastes and Caceri but no real details on the planes themselves. 

 Most of the focus is on demihuman races and their gods and the blood war,  with some stuff on the Shadowfell,  Astral, Limbo (really only Githzerai), Feywild, Material Plane,  Hellsand the Abyss.


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## Parmandur (May 18, 2019)

gyor said:


> I'll give you the Abyss,  the other main side of the Blood War,  but no other outer planes really get explored,  almost nothing for the Upper Planes beyond some details on some demihuman Gods and a few on Evermeet which sort of counts at best, nothing for Mechanus,  nothing for Sigil or the Outlands, nothing for Archeron,  one monster I think for Pandonium,  some Yugoloths for Grey Wastes and Caceri but no real details on the planes themselves.
> 
> Most of the focus is on demihuman races and their gods and the blood war,  with some stuff on the Shadowfell,  Astral, Limbo (really only Githzerai), Feywild, Material Plane,  Hellsand the Abyss.




There is stuff for Mechanus and Sigil, actually, in the monster lore: more on the level of the Monster Manual, but there. Also, the use of Shemeshka as part of the framing device. The book focuses on folks in the outer planes the PCs are likely to fight, sure, namely Fiends. But there is more there to tie into Sigil than Xanathar's or Volo's had for Waterdeep, which wasn't nothing. My spider senses say Planescape is getting the spotlight up next. Also something that could be used by just about any DM using anything resembling standard D&D cosmology, which is a big plus. Beings that you are not likely to fight, like Angels et al, might be more fitting for a setting book sort of supplement than a more straight monster book like MToF.


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## gyor (May 18, 2019)

So we are at least in agreement that Planescape is likely next. We will likely get Aasimar and Genasi again,  Dabus as monsters,  Bariurs as both Monsters and PCs,  same with Bladelings. Maybe even a more general Planetouched Race that has been hinted at in the past. Maybe Gith. Any other playable races heavily linked to Planescape? Maybe Celestial Eladarin,  Guardianals,  Archons,  and some find and elemental monsters. Maybe a Petitioner Template/s. Faction backgrounds like Sensates.


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## gyor (May 18, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> There is stuff for Mechanus and Sigil, actually, in the monster lore: more on the level of the Monster Manual, but there. Also, the use of Shemeshka as part of the framing device. The book focuses on folks in the outer planes the PCs are likely to fight, sure, namely Fiends. But there is more there to tie into Sigil than Xanathar's or Volo's had for Waterdeep, which wasn't nothing. My spider senses say Planescape is getting the spotlight up next. Also something that could be used by just about any DM using anything resembling standard D&D cosmology, which is a big plus. Beings that you are not likely to fight, like Angels et al, might be more fitting for a setting book sort of supplement than a more straight monster book like MToF.




 Your right celestials and other none evil races you are less likely to fight would fit better in a setting book,  although they do have value for summon celestial and Planar Ally and Gate Spells in general.


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## Parmandur (May 18, 2019)

gyor said:


> So we are at least in agreement that Planescape is likely next. We will likely get Aasimar and Genasi again,  Dabus as monsters,  Bariurs as both Monsters and PCs,  same with Bladelings. Maybe even a more general Planetouched Race that has been hinted at in the past. Maybe Gith. Any other playable races heavily linked to Planescape? Maybe Celestial Eladarin,  Guardianals,  Archons,  and some find and elemental monsters. Maybe a Petitioner Template/s. Faction backgrounds like Sensates.




Well, one out of left field possibility relates to the Sidekick rules that are being included in the Essential Set: when discussing them on the Dragon+ show Crawford noted that what he discovered whiel designign the rules is that they provided a good basis for turning anything in D&D into a playable character. So, they could recycle the sidekick rules, and use them as a basis to help a player create a PC out of any creature from Aardvarks to Unicorns. Which would befit the anything goes nature of Planescape, and fill a real rules gap in 5E.


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## Quickleaf (May 18, 2019)

gyor said:


> Any other playable races heavily linked to Planescape?




Gith. And – most importantly – Eugor Snordom!!!


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## Warpiglet (May 18, 2019)

Call me old fashioned and out of date or a fanboy or whatever...devils are interesting, fallen angels moreso and the opportunity to be in that alien territory is fantastic.

the roleplay and survival challenges could be incredible.  So. Cool.

i love the idea of being horribly outgunned and yet still some sort of presence.  This is the kind of stuff I have been waiting for


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## Zarithar (May 18, 2019)

View attachment 106550We had better get a re-imagining of the iconic "A Paladin in Hell" by David Sutherland from the original PHB!


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## EthanSental (May 18, 2019)

I’m glad I picked up the dms guild Baldur gate book and had it printed...these will work well together I think.


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## Abstruse (May 18, 2019)

Here's the stats for the Infernal War Machine.
View attachment 106553


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## gyor (May 18, 2019)

Quickleaf said:


> Gith. And – most importantly – Eugor Snordom!!!




 Rogue Modrons how could I forget those!


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## Parmandur (May 18, 2019)

gyor said:


> Rogue Modrons how could I forget those!




You know Perkins wants those to show up sometime, somewhere.


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## vogless (May 19, 2019)

I still think Greyhawk will come next. Goofy as it sounds, it keeps popping up.


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## Mercador (May 19, 2019)

Oh I like the idea of 1 DM/1 player! I could play with my daughter, it would be way easier.


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## SkidAce (May 19, 2019)

I must say, not sure what new rules will bring, 1 DM/1 player is something you can already do.

And its how I taught my kids. (they are sperated by 6 years of age, so I did it twice...)


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## Parmandur (May 19, 2019)

SkidAce said:


> I must say, not sure what new rules will bring, 1 DM/1 player is something you can already do.
> 
> And its how I taught my kids. (they are sperated by 6 years of age, so I did it twice...)




From what they said, primarily the Sidekick rules, to allow a single PC to have other roles filled.


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## silentdante (May 19, 2019)

yeah i think the sidekick rules will be interesting and whatever else the 1 on 1 rules may change, but like skid said, you can do it already, but only if the DM knows to prep for that, maybe and i am sort of hoping that what the 1 on 1 rules will help do is take already written adventures and make them doable with minimal amount of extra work to change into 1 on 1's

i guess we shall see, also what is the source for the infernal warmachine stats? did someone leak it from the show or does someone just have access to the stats early?


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## Sword of Spirit (May 19, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> But why? Every AP that WotC has put out has a very thin veneer of plot that can be removed with nearly no effort, yet is enough to link together the material for a DM. Take Tomb of Annihilation for example: just never mention the "main plot," and you can run the first two chapters easily as a general city and hexcrawl sandbox, no fuss no muss.
> 
> Removing material is always easier than adding material.




Well, here's some examples from my experiences.

_The difficulty with removing plot_: *Out of the Abyss*. This is the only mega-adventure I have so far (unless you count Lost Mines of Phandelver). Most of it should work without any problem. But my FR happens to be set in the 1370s. I'm reading through the section on Blingdenstone, and I have a problem. Blingdenstone is presented in this book (due to its metaplot timeline advancement) as having been overrun over a century ago, inhabited by various monsters, stuff happened, etc.

But when my players get there, it's only going to be 2-5 years after Blingdenstone initially fell. I have to figure out how to use that material on Blingdenstone (which I want to) by somehow fitting it into the timeline. There isn't any easy fix of how I can just remove stuff some plot points and be good to go--it's too integrated into what they've done.

_The benefit of not having plot included:_ By contrast, take Tales From the Yawning Portal, with it's variety of independent adventures. I've read through all of the adventures in there except for the Thay one, and there isn't a single one that I have any problem running. (I've run two of them already.) I can take all of the Greyhawk adventures and plop them into Greyhawk, because they didn't put in any plot to get in my way.

_The ease of adding plot:_ Or take the Isle of Dread (I have the Goodman Games version, but there was a 5e playtest version also). Also an adventure with little in the way of plot. I have plenty of room to create characters, locations, etc, to put into it with basically nothing in my way.

Now, I'm sure there are situations where removing plot isn't a big deal. If, for instance, I'm not using an adventure in the world it was created in, _and_ it's a low plot adventure, then I could just remove those minor elements. And that might be what you're talking about. But if an adventure has more than a little plot, and I'm running it in the setting is was designed for (which is almost always the case) then there are likely to be issues with that plot getting in my way. If I'm running it my own setting, there are still going to be issues, just different ones.

It is just way easier for me to take something like Tales From the Yawning Portal and do what I want with those adventures, then attempt to extricate the material I want in a mega-adventure from the webs of plot and metaplot it may be baked in.

Now, maybe Blingdenstone is an anomaly. I'm open to that fact. That's as far as I've gotten in Out of the Abyss, and it seemed pretty easy to work with up until that point. I kind of got the idea that this was one of the less plot-intrusive of the mega-adventures though.


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## Jester David (May 19, 2019)

Using powerful divination magic, I have peered ahead into the future to see what the announcement on Sunday will be:


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## gyor (May 19, 2019)

Maybe my fatigue with the Swordcoast made me overly harsh. BG: DIA seems pretty cool amd to have some interesting mysteries. I'm curious about Easter Eggs.


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## Stacie GmrGrl (May 19, 2019)

Now just do an official Planescape book.


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## gyor (May 19, 2019)

Stacie GmrGrl said:


> Now just do an official Planescape book.




 We should find out later today.


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## Remathilis (May 19, 2019)

Everyone is excited for planescape and I'm still convinced it's going to be Ebberon. They didn't do 5 UAs (races, dragonmarks, magic items, and two artificers) and extensive testing via AL for a 200-page, $20 PDF with recycled art.

I'm still thinking Ebberon first, Planescape PDF in June


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## GarrettKP (May 19, 2019)

I still fully expect Eberron, not Planescape. At least, not yet.


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## nicolas.carrillos (May 19, 2019)

I HOPE it is Eberron, but it may well turn out to be Planescape. We’ll see -that being said, will the 4th product be announced today? Someone told me the announcement will take place in June...


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## GarrettKP (May 19, 2019)

There is going to be a June announcement. But it is not the 4th mystery product. That June one is likely Baldurs Gate 3 or something. The last surprise announcement should be the setting they have said was coming.


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## MockingBird (May 19, 2019)

How do know its going to be a setting book? Yall seem pretty certain just wondering what news I missed.


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## Parmandur (May 19, 2019)

Remathilis said:


> Everyone is excited for planescape and I'm still convinced it's going to be Ebberon. They didn't do 5 UAs (races, dragonmarks, magic items, and two artificers) and extensive testing via AL for a 200-page, $20 PDF with recycled art.
> 
> I'm still thinking Ebberon first, Planescape PDF in June




Eberron is certainly coming, but it might not be ready for primetime yet...


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## GarrettKP (May 19, 2019)

MockingBird said:


> How do know its going to be a setting book? Yall seem pretty certain just wondering what news I missed.




Nathan Stewart revealed during a live stream that this year we would be getting a new Setting Book. With 3 books already confirmed (Saltmarsh, Acquisitions Inc, and Avernus) it seems more than certain the last book will be the setting book, unless they decided to do 5 books this year.


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## Remathilis (May 19, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> Eberron is certainly coming, but it might not be ready for primetime yet...



I think it's closer to done than we all think. Most of the UAs were late 2018 into 2019, and the gap between UA and finished product can be really small (Ravnica had a UA a few months before the book came out, sidekicks were playtested in Jan for a product coming in June). They have the feedback they need for everything but the second round of artificer; and if I full book doesn't come out this year, then this has been a lot of time wasted for nothing. 

Ebberon comes out this year or it never comes.


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## Parmandur (May 19, 2019)

GarrettKP said:


> There is going to be a June announcement. But it is not the 4th mystery product. That June one is likely Baldurs Gate 3 or something. The last surprise announcement should be the setting they have said was coming.




On the other hand, they did announce four products on Friday, and the equivalent book (Guildmasters Guide to Ravnica) was announced separately over a month after the Stream of Annhilation.


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## MockingBird (May 19, 2019)

GarrettKP said:


> Nathan Stewart revealed during a live stream that this year we would be getting a new Setting Book. With 3 books already confirmed (Saltmarsh, Acquisitions Inc, and Avernus) it seems more than certain the last book will be the setting book, unless they decided to do 5 books this year.




They counted the Acquisitions book as part of the yearly releases? Bummer. Thanks for clearing that up for me though!


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## GarrettKP (May 19, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> On the other hand, they did announce four products on Friday, and the equivalent book (Guildmasters Guide to Ravnica) was announced separately over a month after the Stream of Annhilation.




No they didn’t. They announced 3 big products and a lot of small ones. 

Avernus, Rick and Morty, and Essentials kits were the 3 big ones. 

Dungeon Mayhem expansion, Avernus Dice Set, and new Comics were all secondary announcements. 

Stewart said they are saving one of the 4 big announcements for Sunday. This was spoken aloud on a stream. Can we please stop pretending like dice sets and card games count as one of the 4?


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## Parmandur (May 19, 2019)

GarrettKP said:


> No they didn’t. They announced 3 big products and a lot of small ones.
> 
> Avernus, Rick and Morty, and Essentials kits were the 3 big ones.
> 
> ...




The press release had four bullet points: I am tempering my expectations, bit we'll see.


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## gyor (May 19, 2019)

MockingBird said:


> They counted the Acquisitions book as part of the yearly releases? Bummer. Thanks for clearing that up for me though!




 The Aquistions Inc book was announced long before the stream


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## gyor (May 19, 2019)

When is the last announcement being done?


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## Parmandur (May 19, 2019)

gyor said:


> When is the last announcement being done?




Well, it's 8:35 AM Pacific right now: final ceremonies begin ~5 PM. So, within the next 12 hours.


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## Jester David (May 19, 2019)

Lots of thoughts, one post:

*Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus*
The Blood War, baby. A fun focus for an adventure. And devils were the easy bet for a story, as one of the few villain types that hadn't been featured. I was expecting a pirate adventure initially, as _Ghosts of the Saltmarsh_ is underwater but doesn't feature a lot of sailing to justify the giant ship mini. But devils were my second guess, as I've been waiting for this since _Out of the Abyss_/ Rage of Demons.) 
And it ties nicely into _Tome of Foes_. (I imagine a Gith adventure is also on their agenda. 2020 maybe?) 

A Hell adventure sounds cool, but focusing on the first layer of Hell is sadly limited. I'd love a grand tour of all of Hell with full stat blocks of all 9 non-god archdevils. That way the book would still be useful for people wanting to do Hellish adventures but who are uninterested in the story WotC is presenting. 

I'm uncertain how I feel about focusing on vehicular raiders and big fiendish war machines. That's very... funky. But I suppose the game does need to be trying different things.

Unsold on focusing on Baldur's Gate at the start. When I think of a city that needs a gazetteer in a Hell-focused adventure, my mind turns to Dis. The urban adventures at the start could have been there. 
Given half the D&D audience is new and probably a solid majority started playing in the last 15 years, it seems odd to be using a 21yo video game as a selling feature. How many players will be familiar with the game and the related god? 
It also seems like an odd mash-up. A city in the Realms and then a trip into Hell. The selling feature of the adventure is all the Hell stuff. The BG is just a speedbump before getting to the bit of the adventure you want. Honestly, it feels like they just included that as padding to get the PCs to an appropriate level, rather than directing people to the new starter set (or the DMsGuild), and instead having _Descent into Avernus_ start at level 5. I worry that the adventure will be half or three-quarters BG and then move to Hell for the final arc. 

*Essentials Kit*
A bit of a surprise. But it makes sense that they'd want a set with character creation. And one aimed at brand new players & DMs rather than new to 5e. 
And getting it into Target is a great idea... for countries that have Targets. There's none in Canada. 

Not that it's really aimed at me... but having a deck of magic items and conditions would be cool. Condition cards are a product I'm always surprised Gale Force 9 hasn't released. 

I don't think anyone expected the Sidekick rules to be in a product like this... Which makes it harder to guess what's coming next as there hasn't been any other Unearthed Arcana articles to use as a baseline. 

*Fourth Product*
There's quite a few guesses going around.
_*Eberron.*_ I doubt WotC would be asking people to buy a big hardcover book a year after releasing a super expensive PDF. Especially when we haven't gotten the Print on Demand version of that book as the artificer isn't finished. (They haven't even asked for feedback via surveys yet.)
_*Planescape.*_ Possible. But, really, based on how they did _Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica_, this would likely be 60 pages on the Factions, 20 pages on Sigil, a mid-sized adventure, and some monsters. Likely a longer one adventure in this case. Honestly, we won't get *that* much more information on the planes than we got in the DMG.

Realistically, the speculated "setting book" is really probably just another DMsGuild PDF, followed by opening up that setting to fan content on the Guild. If there are no new races/ classes/ options to test, possibly one going straight to Print on Demand. They teased a couple setting products last year, and one of them ended up being the Eberron PDF. Despite speculation to the contrary, we didn't get another setting hardcover.
Mearls was talking about Greyhawk recently, and that's the setting for Saltmarsh. So that's the easy bet.

I initially expected the fall book to be the player facing/ non-adventure book, as we haven't had a generic one since _Tome of Foes_. But we haven't tested anything lately, apart from the artificer, which doesn't feel ready.

However, the title of the book is _Baldur's Gate_. _Descent into Avernus_ is the subtitle. There's not a lot of reason to do that unless there's a second _Baldur's Gate_ book planned. So I'm expecting another BG book. 
No idea what that would be... I'd love a further trip into Hell and seeing some more layers. But that doesn't really need the "BG" series title.


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## Parmandur (May 19, 2019)

Jester David said:


> Lots of thoughts, one post:
> 
> *Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus*
> The Blood War, baby. A fun focus for an adventure. And devils were the easy bet for a story, as one of the few villain types that hadn't been featured. I was expecting a pirate adventure initially, as _Ghosts of the Saltmarsh_ is underwater but doesn't feature a lot of sailing to justify the giant ship mini. But devils were my second guess, as I've been waiting for this since _Out of the Abyss_/ Rage of Demons.)
> ...




Stewart went uncharacteristically on recod that we would definitely have a setting book this year (when discussing how successful Ravnica has been for WotC). Based on what they have been laying down, Eberron and Planescape seem the most likely culprits: either one could easily fill a book like Ravnica, and Eberron specific monsters would make it less of an onerous purchase for people who already bought the PDF.

It would be surprising if they released 5 hardcovers this year, but a cosmic megadungeon follow up detailing the remainder of Hell at some detail wouldn't be crazy if they wanted to expand the line.

Based on the panel on Friday, Baldur's Gate will be similar to Port Nyanzaru in ToA: a single chappter than can springboard a campaign, but not the bulk of the adventure.

Consider that Baldur's Gate isn't just an old game that was a best seller: it is also a recent mobile game that was a best seller again this decade. Hence why a Baldur's Gate 3 is in the works, per Brian Fargo last year: we'll probably hear about that very soon.


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## Tazawa (May 19, 2019)

Baldur’s Gate: Ascent of Bhaal


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## GarrettKP (May 19, 2019)

The Baldurs Gate title did make me think a follow up was coming, but that was before the Essentials Kit and Rick and Morty boxes were confirmed. Now, I’m pretty confident the last announcement is a Setting Book. 

Remember that Mearls said last year that is Wayfinders was well received and sold well they would likely do a Hardcover, and treat Wayfinders as a companion. I expect they consider Wayfinders to be their Sword Coast Adventures Guide style book for the setting, and the Hardcover Setting Book will be much more DM facing. 

Also, the “City: Subtitle” titling makes me think they are just changing how their books are titled. It wouldn’t surprise me if we got a Neverwinter Adventure next year, or a Sigil one. I think the idea is so that way if they do followup adventures they can have a clear signal to DMs as to which adventure work together. So next year (or two years from now) if they do a followup to Avernus, they can title it “Baldurs Gate: whatever” and everyone will immediately know it’s meant to be part of that same series. 

Now, I don’t think that is a particularly good idea. But I do think that is likely the point behind it.


----------



## Jester David (May 19, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> Stewart went uncharacteristically on recod that we would definitely have a setting book this year (when discussing how successful Ravnica has been for WotC). Based on what they have been laying down, Eberron and Planescape seem the most likely culprits: either one could easily fill a book like Ravnica, and Eberron specific monsters would make it less of an onerous purchase for people who already bought the PDF.



A Print-on-demand book is still a book. This time last year he talked about two setting books, and one of those was Eberron.



Parmandur said:


> Based on the panel on Friday, Baldur's Gate will be similar to Port Nyanzaru in ToA: a single chappter than can springboard a campaign, but not the bulk of the adventure.



They also mentioned a gazetteer for the city like Waterdeep received. So we'll see. I'm hoping it's just a small section.



Parmandur said:


> Consider that Baldur's Gate isn't just an old game that was a best seller: it is also a recent mobile game that was a best seller again this decade. Hence why a Baldur's Gate 3 is in the works, per Brian Fargo last year: we'll probably hear about that very soon.



Yeah, but how many new people played that mobile game? And how many were existing fans replaying a game for nostalgia? 

I'm not sure how accessible BG is to new gamers. It's hard but in a random way, with a pretty incomprehensible rule system.


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## Psyzhran2357 (May 19, 2019)

A video game following 5e rules and aesthetics sounds interesting, but what would the story even be about? Abdel's been dead for 25 years, Bhaal's alive and kicking, and I'm assuming Ao would throw Bhaal sixteen feet through an announcer's table if the latter tried the Bhaalspawn thing again. Unless Abdel gets a resurrection (commence eyeroll while pointing at Bruenor and company), is there any reason to tie it to the Baldur's Gate IP at all?


----------



## GarrettKP (May 19, 2019)

Psyzhran2357 said:


> A video game following 5e rules and aesthetics sounds interesting, but what would the story even be about? Abdel's been dead for 25 years, Bhaal's alive and kicking, and I'm assuming Ao would throw Bhaal sixteen feet through an announcer's table if the latter tried the Bhaalspawn thing again. Unless Abdel gets a resurrection (commence eyeroll while pointing at Bruenor and company), is there any reason to tie it to the Baldur's Gate IP at all?




I think it’s been long enough that you can do a Baldurs Gate 3 without it being a direct sequel. It could tell a new story in the city (perhaps even tie in to and expand upon Descent into Avernus).


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## gyor (May 19, 2019)

Jester David said:


> Lots of thoughts, one post:
> 
> *Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus*
> The Blood War, baby. A fun focus for an adventure. And devils were the easy bet for a story, as one of the few villain types that hadn't been featured. I was expecting a pirate adventure initially, as _Ghosts of the Saltmarsh_ is underwater but doesn't feature a lot of sailing to justify the giant ship mini. But devils were my second guess, as I've been waiting for this since _Out of the Abyss_/ Rage of Demons.)
> ...




 Planescape doesn't need a special adventure because it's one of the two metasetting,  you can for example just use Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus,  but substitute Sigil for BG. 

  And we don't need 60 pages on the factions,  this isn't Ravnica,  the factions are important in Sigil,  but setting wise not that important. 2 pages per faction should be enough.


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## Parmandur (May 19, 2019)

Jester David said:


> A Print-on-demand book is still a book. This time last year he talked about two setting books, and one of those was Eberron.




Possibly, though the context on Spoilers & Swag was answering a question on whether Ravnica was a success from WotC point of view: the answer was yes, and they were going to do it again with a new setting this year. The November hardcover "slot" is a setting book, the question is which, and when they will talk about it.


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## aco175 (May 19, 2019)

I'm more interested in the new starter set than going to Hell.  I think I can use that more and in more ways to extend campaigns.  I like the way they are expanding on Phandalin.  I would be cool, but I do not expect, that the town will be updated to reflect any changes from the original.  And, it looks like this adventure has a dragon to combat.


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## Parmandur (May 19, 2019)

GarrettKP said:


> The Baldurs Gate title did make me think a follow up was coming, but that was before the Essentials Kit and Rick and Morty boxes were confirmed. Now, I’m pretty confident the last announcement is a Setting Book.
> 
> Remember that Mearls said last year that is Wayfinders was well received and sold well they would likely do a Hardcover, and treat Wayfinders as a companion. I expect they consider Wayfinders to be their Sword Coast Adventures Guide style book for the setting, and the Hardcover Setting Book will be much more DM facing.
> 
> ...




Wild prediction: "Icewind Dale: Return to the Gates of Firestorm Peak" or something, with ancient Eldritch madness (Cthulu and Mindflayers) rising in the mountains no the frozen North.


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## sevenbastard (May 19, 2019)

aco175 said:


> I'm more interested in the new starter set than going to Hell.  I think I can use that more and in more ways to extend campaigns.  I like the way they are expanding on Phandalin.  I would be cool, but I do not expect, that the town will be updated to reflect any changes from the original.  And, it looks like this adventure has a dragon to combat.




Maybe you can run both the starter adventures concurrently. That would be a dream. A larger sand box.


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## GarrettKP (May 19, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> Wild prediction: "Icewind Dale: Return to the Gates of Firestorm Peak" or something, with ancient Eldritch madness (Cthulu and Mindflayers) rising in the mountains no the frozen North.




Honestly that might be why we are seeing a change to how they title adventures. Maybe it’s to create brand synergy with their games that are rumored to be in development? Stands to reason that if BG3 is coming, we might see new Neverwinter, Icewind Dale and even Planescape games.


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## Urriak (May 19, 2019)

GarrettKP said:


> Honestly that might be why we are seeing a change to how they title adventures. Maybe it’s to create brand synergy with their games that are rumored to be in development? Stands to reason that if BG3 is coming, we might see new Neverwinter, Icewind Dale and even Planescape games.




In my opinion the new naming is simply a way to signify the setting, to almost encourage people to buy a book because it almost doubles as a "mini-setting" book. Waterdeep: Dragon Heist doubles as a guide to the city of Waterdeep, and Undermountain is supplementary to that setting. I suspect the new book is going to contain a decent amount of info for how to play sessions with Baldur's Gate.


----------



## Jester David (May 19, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> Possibly, though the context on Spoilers & Swag was answering a question on whether Ravnica was a success from WotC point of view: the answer was yes, and they were going to do it again with a new setting this year. The November hardcover "slot" is a setting book, the question is which, and when they will talk about it.



Reporting things from Spoilers & Swag without a link is always dubious to me. It always turns things into a game of Telephone. Posters here have a loooong history of hearing things they want to hear.

If that is the third hardcover, then it will revealed be the end of con video around the concert (like _Dungeon of the Mad Mage_ was), wrapping up the event at 7 PST. They've mentioned it will be just before _Game of Thrones_.
Which is a little anticlimactic as it means we know about it, but get no real information beyond a couple minute video.


----------



## MockingBird (May 19, 2019)

I dont know why but I am highly doubtful it's going to be a setting book. I want to be wrong though.


----------



## darjr (May 19, 2019)

Baldurs Gate: Decent to Sigil


----------



## Jester David (May 19, 2019)

gyor said:


> Planescape doesn't need a special adventure because it's one of the two metasetting,  you can for example just use Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus,  but substitute Sigil for BG.



Stewart did said they wanted to use _Curse of Strahd_ as the template for future settings, with an adventure as part of the setting. The fewer racial and class and monster options that are added, the longer the adventure will be.
An adventure will almost certainly be the centerpiece of the book. 



gyor said:


> And we don't need 60 pages on the factions,  this isn't Ravnica,  the factions are important in Sigil,  but setting wise not that important. 2 pages per faction should be enough.



The catch is, they don't need to do a book on Sigil. That book already exists. 

If doing Planescape, they need to add something beyond just the fluff. As fluff is edition neutral. Mechanical faction details and rules for reputation in that city are something that isn't featured in a 2e book. 
They don't seem interested in doing the giant books of setting lore like they did in 2e and 3e.


----------



## Abstruse (May 19, 2019)

MockingBird said:


> I dont know why but I am highly doubtful it's going to be a setting book. I want to be wrong though.



It's more based on how you define "setting book". WotC hasn't been doing actual setting books. They've all been backdoor setting books, like Curse of Strahd for Ravenloft, hiding the setting within an adventure.

My guess is it'll be an adventure for levels 14-20 completing the "story" from Descent into Avernus that focuses on the planes with a detailed description of Sigil and rules for planar travels and adventures. Still have a few hours before we find out for sure...

Frankly, I'm more invested in trying to figure out _when _the announcement will be since there's not a clear-cut slot on the schedule. There's a concert starting in about 45 minutes and, based on the number of musicians, that'll be going for several hours. Right now, the main channel isn't even live and I can't see them announcing the new big book on their equivalent of ESPN-3.


----------



## Abstruse (May 19, 2019)

Jester David said:


> The catch is, they don't need to do a book on Sigil. That book already exists.



True, but by the same logic, we didn't need a book on Waterdeep. Or Chult or Barovia or Eberron or... People still want setting books because they want to see how they're updated to the new edition and the current timeline. They want not just what already exists but to see it updated.

And there's also a LOT of people playing today who weren't even born when the first Planescape boxed set came out. They might not be interested in reading a book older than they are written for an edition they never played written in a style that's not remotely close to the current style RPG books are written in.


----------



## bedir than (May 19, 2019)

Jester David said:


> The catch is, they don't need to do a book on Sigil. That book already exists.
> 
> If doing Planescape, they need to add something beyond just the fluff. As fluff is edition neutral. Mechanical faction details and rules for reputation in that city are something that isn't featured in a 2e book.
> They don't seem interested in doing the giant books of setting lore like they did in 2e and 3e.




A majority of players don't know the Guild exists. A vast majority of players never experienced 2e.

Just like they didn't need to release Curse of Strahd because the i-series exists; they don't need to do any new setting book.

They'll do new setting books because the audience has expanded so rapidly that old content is essentially meaningless.


----------



## kenmarable (May 19, 2019)

sevenbastard said:


> Maybe you can run both the starter adventures concurrently. That would be a dream. A larger sand box.




During the announcement, Chris Perkins said (paraphrasing) “You can run Lost Mines and then this one, or this one and then Lost Mines, or mix them up however you like. This expands the area detailing more places to adventure in.” So it sounds like your larger sandbox.


----------



## Mercador (May 19, 2019)

SkidAce said:


> I must say, not sure what new rules will bring, 1 DM/1 player is something you can already do.
> 
> And its how I taught my kids. (they are sperated by 6 years of age, so I did it twice...)




In 5E? I would like to play PF1 AP with my daughter but it's quite difficult to adjust combat when it's clearly for 4-5 players. I guess I could give her superpowers but it won't be the same.


----------



## Abstruse (May 19, 2019)

Abstruse said:


> Frankly, I'm more invested in trying to figure out _when _the announcement will be since there's not a clear-cut slot on the schedule. There's a concert starting in about 45 minutes and, based on the number of musicians, that'll be going for several hours. Right now, the main channel isn't even live and I can't see them announcing the new big book on their equivalent of ESPN-3.



Ugh, I knew I should've gotten that second cup of coffee, converted the time the wrong way. Concert's not until 7PM Central (so four hours from now) and it's the only thing on the main channel schedule. There's not even some kind of wrap-up scheduled that I can see.


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## vecna00 (May 19, 2019)

Abstruse said:


> Ugh, I knew I should've gotten that second cup of coffee, converted the time the wrong way. Concert's not until 7PM Central (so four hours from now) and it's the only thing on the main channel schedule. There's not even some kind of wrap-up scheduled that I can see.




If I remember correctly, the event ends at 8 pm PST (10 Central), and Nathan Stewart teased that the "Big Announcement" would be at 8:45 (no time zone given) to mess with Game of Thrones viewers. It was also noted that the announcement would not appear on the VOD. Not sure how much of that is legit information or trolling on his part.

I do expect it to just be a video reveal like they did for Dungeon of the Mad Mage.


----------



## vecna00 (May 19, 2019)

vecna00 said:


> If I remember correctly, the event ends at 8 pm PST (10 Central), and Nathan Stewart teased that the "Big Announcement" would be at 8:45 (no time zone given) to mess with Game of Thrones viewers. It was also noted that the announcement would not appear on the VOD. Not sure how much of that is legit information or trolling on his part.
> 
> I do expect it to just be a video reveal like they did for Dungeon of the Mad Mage.




For context, they were talking about the Game of Thrones finally airing on the East Coast...which is 6 pm PST.


----------



## Parmandur (May 19, 2019)

Jester David said:


> Reporting things from Spoilers & Swag without a link is always dubious to me. It always turns things into a game of Telephone. Posters here have a loooong history of hearing things they want to hear.
> 
> If that is the third hardcover, then it will revealed be the end of con video around the concert (like _Dungeon of the Mad Mage_ was), wrapping up the event at 7 PST. They've mentioned it will be just before _Game of Thrones_.
> Which is a little anticlimactic as it means we know about it, but get no real information beyond a couple minute video.




Take it for what it is worth, per Reddit at the time:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/330660672?t=01h01m58s

1 hour 2 minutes in, as a part of his Spoilers and Swag show, Nathan Stewart "announced" in a way that doesn't reveal any real details that there will be a new D&D setting book. Here's what he said in the stream:

"Next year for our annual releases I can confirm there will be a setting book. A new setting book. A book that we have not created that is for a D&D setting. Yes. That question comes up a lot. I'm not telling you which one, but I am confirming that, because we don't always do that. That is not always a given."


----------



## Parmandur (May 19, 2019)

Jester David said:


> Stewart did said they wanted to use _Curse of Strahd_ as the template for future settings, with an adventure as part of the setting. The fewer racial and class and monster options that are added, the longer the adventure will be.
> An adventure will almost certainly be the centerpiece of the book.
> 
> 
> ...




WotC appears to have solved for setting sbooks for 5E in Guildmasters Guide to Ravnica: 5E applicable crunch for players, DM aids, and a ton of monsters. Basically, a PHB add-on, a MM add-on, and a DMG add-on. That was the impression Stewart gave when talking about the reception of that book, at any rate.


----------



## Jester David (May 19, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> Take it for what it is worth, per Reddit at the time:
> 
> https://www.twitch.tv/videos/330660672?t=01h01m58s




Twitch sez: "_Sorry. Unless you’ve got a time machine, that content is unavailable._"

But the quote does sound pretty definitive. But, again, he could be referring to a PDF. I'm not willing to put down any money that plans haven't changed or schedules shifted. 



Parmandur said:


> WotC appears to have solved for setting sbooks for 5E in Guildmasters Guide to Ravnica: 5E applicable crunch for players, DM aids, and a ton of monsters. Basically, a PHB add-on, a MM add-on, and a DMG add-on. That was the impression Stewart gave when talking about the reception of that book, at any rate.



That will work well for a setting like Dark Sun. If they make that setting akin to _Guildmaster's Guide_ it will work well. That would be my guess, but that really requires psionics to function. 

But there's not nearly as many monsters for Planescape that haven't been done. There's very little applicable crunch for players (apart from races we've seen). There's less to fill out the book, unless they go for a small 160-pages. 
Sigil would work better as a full adventure, like _Dragon Heist_. Big adventure and small gazetteer. Heck, before _Dragon Heist_ was announced, a lot of people were predicting that. People have been predicting Planescape for three years now...



bedir than said:


> A majority of players don't know the Guild exists. A vast majority of players never experienced 2e.



Right. And that vast majority won't give an eff about a classic setting. 



bedir than said:


> Just like they didn't need to release Curse of Strahd because the i-series exists; they don't need to do any new setting book.



Updating _Castle Ravenloft_ is not the same thing as updating the Ravenloft campaign setting. 
They can update _The Great Modron March_ without "updating" Planescape by making it self contained (as I suggest above in a response to another poster). 



Abstruse said:


> True, but by the same logic, we didn't need a book on Waterdeep. Or Chult or Barovia or Eberron or...



And we only got one on Waterdeep because of an adventure than was mostly adventure with a very minor section on the city.

If we get a Planescape/ Sigil book you can also expect a comparable 24 pages on the city and 200 pages of adventure. Give or take. It likely won't _just_ be a setting book like we saw previously.



Abstruse said:


> People still want setting books because they want to see how they're updated to the new edition and the current timeline. They want not just what already exists but to see it updated.



Here's the thing... 100% of Planescape in 2e is still applicable. Literally nothing in Eberron changed because of a timeline change, because the timeline didn't change. The only setting that needs an update is the Realms. 

That's why the PDF approach worked for Eberron, when they released _Wayfinder's Guide_. It updated the crunch for people who already had the books and were fans of the setting, letting them use material they already owned. That will work just fine for Dragonlance and Spelljammer and even Planescape. 



Abstruse said:


> And there's also a LOT of people playing today who weren't even born when the first Planescape boxed set came out. They might not be interested in reading a book older than they are written for an edition they never played written in a style that's not remotely close to the current style RPG books are written in.



True.
But then why would said audience care about a new book written about a setting from an edition they never played? Why do they care?

WotC updates settings for the old fans, because the new fans have zero attachment to the worlds. The world of Critical Role and the Tal'dorei Campaign Setting are ten times as appealing as Eberron or Planescape to the new fans.


----------



## Abstruse (May 19, 2019)

Jester David said:


> True.
> But then why would said audience care about a new book written about a setting from an edition they never played? Why do they care?
> 
> WotC updates settings for the old fans, because the new fans have zero attachment to the worlds. The world of Critical Role and the Tal'dorei Campaign Setting are ten times as appealing as Eberron or Planescape to the new fans.



Actually, you said it. Critical Role. And Relics and Rarities and all the other big streamers and celebrity D&D players. The people on those shows talk about the old settings in interviews and on social media, driving up interest for them for new fans who've never had a chance to experience them. New fans who aren't as interested at digging up 35 year old Dragonlance modules but really wants to see what Krynn's all about after Joe Manganiello talks about it.


----------



## Parmandur (May 19, 2019)

[MENTION=37579]Jester David[/MENTION]

Try this on for size, the context suggested a hardcover like Ravnica, but time will tell:

https://youtu.be/o6Ipq4S_TrY

I can see a whole book like GGtR about Sigil, particularly one with a lot of unique stat blocks for NPCs and much more proper Gazeeter material: a lot of playable races not seen yet, and Mearls floated a lot of subclass ideas last year that would fit.


----------



## Jester David (May 19, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> [MENTION=37579]Jester David[/MENTION]
> 
> Try this on for size, the context suggested a hardcover like Ravnica, but time will tell:
> 
> https://youtu.be/o6Ipq4S_TrY



Thanks.
And Steward immediately describes Ravnica as "one of the best selling _*adventures *_on DnDBeyond". 

He then says he doesn't know if he'll do any more settings "this year" because they wanted to see how Ravnica was received (as they plan their schedule like a year to 18 months in advance).

View attachment 106569

(I don't know where your quote came from... Could it have been early 2018 and referring to Ravnica?)



Parmandur said:


> I can see a whole book like GGtR about Sigil, particularly one with a lot of unique stat blocks for NPCs and much more proper Gazeeter material: a lot of playable races not seen yet, and Mearls floated a lot of subclass ideas last year that would fit.



If we were expecting subclasses, we would have seen them in January to test them. That's about when we saw the Ravnica subclasses last year. 
We could still see some races to test, as the Ravnica ones were out in July IIRC. But so far we've only seen the artificer, which isn't ready and they haven't even started surveying for. That's a 2020 release at the earliest...


----------



## gyor (May 19, 2019)

Jester David said:


> Twitch sez: "_Sorry. Unless you’ve got a time machine, that content is unavailable._"
> 
> But the quote does sound pretty definitive. But, again, he could be referring to a PDF. I'm not willing to put down any money that plans haven't changed or schedules shifted.
> 
> ...




 There are tons of monsters that they can explore,  there are celestials like Asuras,  Celestial Eladarin,  Guardianals, Celestial Archons, 4e Angels,  different types of Aasimon Angels that haven't been done yet, Heilophants, Lilends, ect...,  there are also tons of untouched fiends,  like Brachina,  Warden Devils,  various kinds of Yugoloths. And room to add new types of Fiends and Celestials like Succubi Queens. 

 There are also Barbiars,  Dabus,  and more. 

 Plus if they combine Spelljammer into it, you have Spelljammer Monsters. Some Ravnica celestials might make a reappearance. 

 And there are elementals that haven't been touched yet.


----------



## Parmandur (May 19, 2019)

Jester David said:


> Thanks.
> And Steward immediately describes Ravnica as "one of the best selling _*adventures *_on DnDBeyond".
> 
> He then says he doesn't know if he'll do any more settings "this year" because they wanted to see how Ravnica was received (as they plan their schedule like a year to 18 months in advance).
> ...




Actually, it looks like I was thinking of November's S&S: can't check the link at the moment, but per the Reddit thread I found Stewart does specify that he is talking about a hardcover setting book.


----------



## Jester David (May 19, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> Actually, it looks like I was thinking of November's S&S: can't check the link at the moment, but per the Reddit thread I found Stewart does specify that he is talking about a hardcover setting book.




Here: https://youtu.be/LmEel4spCRc?t=3574


So either he was mistaken in November when he said there would be a setting book or he was mistaken in January.
It's very possible they had planned to do a setting book but decided to wait to see how Ravnica would do, and the later January statement was him rolling back his statement.


----------



## gyor (May 20, 2019)

If the 4th announcement isn't a setting, what is it? Volo's Guide to Spirits and Specters?


----------



## pukunui (May 20, 2019)

gyor said:


> If the 4th announcement isn't a setting, what is it? Volo's Guide to Spirits and Specters?



I really don't think that's going to be an actual book. I think it was just a bit of a joke / word play involving the two meanings of "spirit".


----------



## MockingBird (May 20, 2019)

Elminsters guide to Porridge &Poultices. Bet!


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## gyor (May 20, 2019)

So what book was announced or was it a new CRPG?


----------



## Parmandur (May 20, 2019)

gyor said:


> So what book was announced or was it a new CRPG?




Concert is still going last I heard.


----------



## Birmy (May 20, 2019)

....aaaaaand it's an Eberron hardcover.


----------



## JRedmond (May 20, 2019)

It was just announced, and it's a hardcover of Eberron.


----------



## lordstimpy (May 20, 2019)

Hard cover Eberron! Wonder if it's more then what's in Wayfinders Guide.


----------



## nicolas.carrillos (May 20, 2019)

HARDCOVER EBERRON!!! Yesss


----------



## mankyle (May 20, 2019)

Hardcover. Eberron. That's happening


----------



## GarrettKP (May 20, 2019)

Eberron. I was right with my first guess.


----------



## Parmandur (May 20, 2019)

[MENTION=37579]Jester David[/MENTION] alright, hardcover Eberron book: looks like Stewart was trying to deflect a little in the later video, or wasn't finalized yet.


----------



## gyor (May 20, 2019)

Any details a about this hard cover Eberron given?


----------



## Jester David (May 20, 2019)

So... they're going with the ONE non-FR classic setting people already have all the 5e D&D rules for _and _people paid $20 for just last year rather than literally any other setting.

That's super disappointing.


----------



## Birmy (May 20, 2019)

gyor said:


> Any details a about this hard cover Eberron given?




Not really! There is a warforged on the the cover. It was mostly him and Kate Welch getting closing-time sloppy about the end of the stream, prolonging the reveal, and taunting the _Game of Thrones_ watchers who weren't there to see it. Presumably the content will differ from the _Wayfinder's Guide_ (if my memory of past statements is correct).


----------



## Jester David (May 20, 2019)

gyor said:


> Any details a about this hard cover Eberron given?




Literally nothing. Announced and then they faded to black.


----------



## Ibrandul (May 20, 2019)

gyor said:


> Any details a about this hard cover Eberron given?




Nope. The announcement was just “Warforged! Hardcover Eberron! That’s happening!” Nothing more than that. Technically didn’t even specify when it’s coming, though I assume it will be the next hardcover after Descent into Avernus. We knew this was coming at some point anyway so pretty anticlimactic.


----------



## silentdante (May 20, 2019)

eh, plenty of time ot learn more, knowing it exists officially is good enough for me... for now


----------



## Parmandur (May 20, 2019)

Jester David said:


> So... they're going with the ONE non-FR classic setting people already have all the 5e D&D rules for _and _people paid $20 for just last year rather than literally any other setting.
> 
> That's super disappointing.




They followed through on the one setting they had released a playtest document for, which makes sense: it's what I had been expecting after the Wayfarer's Guide early access playtest. There is more that isn't included in that book, like vehicle rules and importantly monsters, that will likely be here.


----------



## Jester David (May 20, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> They followed through on the one setting they had released a playtest document for, which makes sense: it's what I had been expecting after the Wayfarer's Guide early access playtest. There is more that isn't included in that book, like vehicle rules and importantly monsters, that will likely be here.




Just disappointing as we don't get anything new. No new races. No new setting on the Guild. Nothing that we didn't already have before...
They got us to PAY for playtest material with the promise the PDF would be updated. Maybe it will now, maybe it won't.


----------



## Parmandur (May 20, 2019)

Jester David said:


> Just disappointing as we don't get anything new. No new races. No new setting on the Guild. Nothing that we didn't already have before...
> They got us to PAY for playtest material with the promise the PDF would be updated. Maybe it will now, maybe it won't.




They have updated the document as the playtest proceeded, and they did lay out that this was the hoped for plan since day one. Based on what they said at the time, this will probably only recycle the crunch that was tested, not the boatloads of fluff. The material was made AL legal, and supported, as well, so it has had value in play.

We don't know what may be new yet: Ravnica had material being playtested through September, so more subclass options seem probable. There are a metric tonne of Eberron specific monsters that WG doesn't touch with a ten foot pole, and fluff outside of Sharn is sparse in the book.


----------



## Azzy (May 20, 2019)

Jester David said:


> Just disappointing as we don't get anything new. No new races. No new setting on the Guild. Nothing that we didn't already have before...
> They got us to PAY for playtest material with the promise the PDF would be updated. Maybe it will now, maybe it won't.




The actual playtest material was realeased through UA as well—for free. People played for the fluff.


----------



## Parmandur (May 20, 2019)

Azzy said:


> The actual playtest material was realeased through UA as well—for free. People played for the fluff.




And the fluff and lore from Baker will probably remain distinctly in that book.


----------



## Azzy (May 20, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> And the fluff and lore from Baker will probably remain distinctly in that book.




Likely. Wayfinder was more like an introduction for people new to the setting, and I think it excelled at that. The hardback will probably be far more dense with less new player handholding.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (May 20, 2019)

Alright, now that we know we are only getting the first circle of Hell detailed in the newly announced books, I expect the other 8 to be opened up on DM's Guild for everyone to publish about.


----------



## Parmandur (May 20, 2019)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Alright, now that we know we are only getting the first circle of Hell detailed in the newly announced books, I expect the other 8 to be opened up on DM's Guild for everyone to publish about.




It already is: nothing has stopped anyone from doing that for the past several years.


----------



## Jester David (May 20, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> Based on what they said at the time, this will probably only recycle the crunch that was tested, not the boatloads of fluff.



Citation please.



Parmandur said:


> We don't know what may be new yet: Ravnica had material being playtested through September, so more subclass options seem probable.



Races only.
Subclasses were tested far earlier.

I'd feel better if I liked the current iteration of the artificer. It has a lot of things I dislike.



Azzy said:


> The actual playtest material was realeased through UA as well—for free. People played for the fluff.



Yes. They released the material free. Several weeks AFTER a few thousand people bought the PDF. 
That was a big complaint at the time regarding the UAs.


----------



## Parmandur (May 20, 2019)

Jester David said:


> Citation please.




Sure, from Mike Mearls Twitter the day the Wayfarer's Guide was released, discussing the plans to release the crunch for free and make a hard cover book:

"This is 100% official content for Eberron. Since it is an ebook, that also means we can update content with comments based on UA playtests of the races and the artificer. If we do an Eberron print product, we will design it to complement as much as possible what the PDF presents." https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/1021495845223636994?s=19

"Some things, like the artificer, races, and basic world info, will be picked up for a print book, but we want fans to be happy owning both." https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/1021496102800056321?s=19

"We'll likely make them two, separate things. Just speaking theoretically - the print book might focus on the Five Nations and adventures there, while this covers Sharn in more detail."
https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/1021499358989242369?s=19

This Eberron hardcover was always their plan, and they told us about it, though keeping their options open.


----------



## Jester David (May 20, 2019)

Azzy said:


> Likely. Wayfinder was more like an introduction for people new to the setting, and I think it excelled at that. The hardback will probably be far more dense with less new player handholding.



Will it though?
Will it _*really*_? 

Or will it just have a comparable amount of world lore and just include an introductory adventure and some monsters rather than the section on Sharn? 

The_Wayfarer's Guide_ is 170 pages. It's BIG. Far from a quick intro. If you handed that to your players and told them to read it, their response would be "WTF, dude?!?"
WotC doesn't seem interested in the big expansive setting books any more. The book's unlikely to be a 320-page encyclopedia. 
The best we can hope for is that it has two pages on each nation rather than one or focuses on Xen'Drik instead.


----------



## Jester David (May 20, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> Sure, from Mike Mearls Twitter the day the Wayfarer's Guide was released, discussing the plans to release the crunch for free and make a hard cover book:
> 
> "This is 100% official content for Eberron. Since it is an ebook, that also means we can update content with comments based on UA playtests of the races and the artificer. If we do an Eberron print product, we will design it to complement as much as possible what the PDF presents." https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/1021495845223636994?s=19
> 
> ...



Got it. 
Mearls lied to us when he said it was "theoretical". 
Lied. To. Our. Faces.


Also, the "Some things, like the artificer, races, and basic world info" covers the first 120-pages of _Wayfarer's Guide_. It's 70% of the book. So _Wayfarer's Guide_ is really only useful if you're playing in Sharn for those 40-pages. So, that's like fifty cents a page for that content. 
Yeah... totally happy owning both. Don't feel ripped off and taken advantage of at all.


Meanwhile, the Eberron fans get TWO books while the fans of Dragonlance, Planescape, Spelljammer, Birthright, Dark Sun, and Greyhawk get how many books?


----------



## Satyrn (May 20, 2019)

Jester David said:


> Yeah... totally happy owning both. Don't feel ripped off and taken advantage of at all.




Wait. You own both? Where'd you get a copy of the hardcover? By which I mean, how do I get a copy?


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (May 20, 2019)

Jester David said:


> Got it.
> Mearls lied to us when he said it was "theoretical".
> Lied. To. Our. Faces.




Not really, as there was a qualifier in there somewhere, that I am not searching for right now, along the lines of if the PDF is popular enough, then a hardcover could be made to go with it. If no one, or few enough people, had bought the PDF, then there would have never been a hardcover at all.



> Also, the "Some things, like the artificer, races, and basic world info" covers the first 120-pages of _Wayfarer's Guide_. It's 70% of the book. So _Wayfarer's Guide_ is really only useful if you're playing in Sharn for those 40-pages. So, that's like fifty cents a page for that content.
> 
> Yeah... totally happy owning both. Don't feel ripped off and taken advantage of at all.




Don't forget that the current page count for the PDF does not even include the pages for the Artificer yet, so that number will grow once everything is finalized.



> Meanwhile, the Eberron fans get TWO books while the fans of Dragonlance, Planescape, Spelljammer, Birthright, Dark Sun, and Greyhawk get how many books?




People around here, and in WotC's polls, seem to think that Eberron is more popular than any of those, so not surprised it is first. And some of those other settings will likely follow the same format and the the PDF playtest treatment first and a hardcover added later. Eberron proved this format works, so they will use it again. And they will likely do them in order of profitability, so some old settings will never see the light of day and maybe never be opened on DMs Guild either.


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## vecna00 (May 20, 2019)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Not really, as there was a qualifier in there somewhere, that I am not searching for right now, along the lines of if the PDF is popular enough, then a hardcover could be made to go with it. If no one, or few enough people, had bought the PDF, then there would have never been a hardcover at all.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I 100% see them doing PDFs for testing and popularity. If successful, they'll do hardcovers. If there is that much of an issue with it, then people should vote with their wallets or let it be known in surveys.

I don't see this as a bad thing.


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## Psyzhran2357 (May 20, 2019)

Jester David said:


> Got it.
> Mearls lied to us when he said it was "theoretical".
> Lied. To. Our. Faces.




Reading comprehension 0%, final course grade F, pleaew withdraw from this program, pleaseleave this institution and never come back.


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## EthanSental (May 20, 2019)

Eberron, not my cup of tea plus that means I have to see keith baker wearing that black Greg Norman hat like a college student that wears his favorite t shirt every day of the week!  At first I thought the ravnica book would be my first 5e non-purchase...I know Eberron will be.  It’s literally the last setting I’m interested in.


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## Abstruse (May 20, 2019)

Psyzhran2357 said:


> Reading comprehension 0%, final course grade F, pleaew withdraw from this program, pleaseleave this institution and never come back.



Not even getting into the grammatical and typographical errors of someone starting off with "reading comprehension 0%", but let's back up a bit and say this:

Mike Mearls, on behalf of Wizards of the Coast, said the PDF would be updated with new material.

People paid $20 for the PDF based off that.

Wizards of the Coast then releases a $50-60 hardcover on the same material.

So either the people who paid $20 for the PDF are not getting this updated material, meaning they were deceived...or they are getting this updated material, which devalues the still-as-yet unreleased book.

No matter what happens here, unless Wizards of the Coast comes up with some details as to what is and is not included in the Eberron book and what recompense (if any) they're giving to people who bought the Wayfarer's Guide to Eberron, people are going to speculate. And that speculation is not going to be on Wizards of the Coast's side considering the preponderance of the evidence.


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## Psyzhran2357 (May 20, 2019)

Abstruse said:


> Not even getting into the grammatical and typographical errors of someone starting off with "reading comprehension 0%", but let's back up a bit and say this:
> 
> Mike Mearls, on behalf of Wizards of the Coast, said the PDF would be updated with new material.
> 
> ...




They've said since July of last year that they would release a hardback in addition to the WGtE. This is simply that statement coming to fruition. 

Like you said, and everybody knows, we don't know what the hardback will be yet. It might be an Eberron-specific Monster Manual. It might be an Adventure Path set in Eberron. It might be a SCAG style travel guide to Khorvaire or Xen'drik or Sarlona. This upcoming hardback will supplement the WGtE, not replace it. So get your panties out of a bunch and put the pitchfork back in the shed.

Seriously, it feels like this forum wants the 5e team publicly disemboweled with how much hate is being thrown at them.


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## Paul Farquhar (May 20, 2019)

Abstruse said:


> Not even getting into the grammatical and typographical errors of someone starting off with "reading comprehension 0%", but let's back up a bit and say this:
> 
> Mike Mearls, on behalf of Wizards of the Coast, said the PDF would be updated with new material.




And he also said that if it proved popular a hardback Eberron book would be released.



> People paid $20 for the PDF based off that.




Yes they did. If they hadn't no further Eberron publication would have been released.



> Wizards of the Coast then releases a $50-60 hardcover on the same material.




It's only "The same material" if you consider "Waterdeep: Dragonheist" and "The Sword Coast Adventurers Guide" as "The Same Material".



> So either the people who paid $20 for the PDF are not getting this updated material,




Yes, they are. The new Eberron book has no effect on updates to the existing Eberron book.



> No matter what happens here




People are going to complain about it because they are entitled jerks who aren't happy unless they are slagging someone off.


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## Jester David (May 20, 2019)

Satyrn said:


> Wait. You own both? Where'd you get a copy of the hardcover? By which I mean, how do I get a copy?



ha... ha...

If I get a hardcopy of the physical book, I won't be happy. As half of that book will be reprinting something else. I'll have paid $80 for the book. Even if I get it at Amazon on a sale, I'll have paid more for that book that if I bought it at my FLGS. 



Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Not really, as there was a qualifier in there somewhere, that I am not searching for right now, along the lines of if the PDF is popular enough, then a hardcover could be made to go with it. If no one, or few enough people, had bought the PDF, then there would have never been a hardcover at all.



Here's the thing... they plan their books 18 months ahead. They already knew that they'd be doing the Eberron book. Okay, they might have had time to make last minute changes, but they probably already had it on the schedule when they released the _Wayfinder's Guide_, guessing what the response would be. 

So it wasn't a "theoretical" book. I was a book already scheduled and planned. Hence why I feel lied to.



Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Don't forget that the current page count for the PDF does not even include the pages for the Artificer yet, so that number will grow once everything is finalized



IF they decide to still add the artificer. They may not, saving that for the hardcover, 

Even if they do that's not really helpful. As every page added to the PDF would also be added to the hardcover. And doing the math, if they add those pages to both the PDF and the hardcover, it increases the total percentage of the book that would likely be reprinted. Right now it's around 70.5% if they copy 120-pages of the 170-page book (i.e. intro to the nations, the races, dragonmarks). If the artificer brings in 20 pages that goes up to 73%...



Enevhar Aldarion said:


> People around here, and in WotC's polls, seem to think that Eberron is more popular than any of those, so not surprised it is first.



You'd be wrong there: http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/july-survey

Eberron TIED with Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Planescape, and the Forgotten Realms. And we haven't really seen a hardcover setting book for any of those, apart from _Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide_, which covered maybe a third of the Realms. 
(And before you say it, no _Curse of Strahd_ doesn't count. That was an update of an adventure not the setting: it included and updated none of the trappings of the setting.)



Enevhar Aldarion said:


> And some of those other settings will likely follow the same format and the the PDF playtest treatment first and a hardcover added later. Eberron proved this format works, so they will use it again. And they will likely do them in order of profitability, so some old settings will never see the light of day and maybe never be opened on DMs Guild either.



First, I doubt anyone is going to buy the PDF playtest document next time. They'll look at the UAs and give their feedback, but they're not going to play to test. 

The big "catch" is they don't need to do a annual setting books. Settings have hard diminishing returns as you only need one at a time, and a single setting can accommodate multiple campaigns and years of play. Eberron is their second setting in as many years. There's maybe an audience for one more setting before sales for those books start dropping. Two at most. So we get a Dark Sun and Planescape book but never get a Forgotten Realms hardback for 5e. No Dragonlance or Greyhawk or Ravenloft. And probably not Spelljammer. 
That's mostly why I'm irked. 
This is very literally coming at the expense of another setting. That's a setting that won't receive a setting book for 5e. Likely a setting that wasn't officially update for 4e either (and maybe not 3e). The longer the setting goes without support, the fewer and fewer fans the setting will have. Dragonlance used to be the most popular setting. But without the ability to make new fans in 4e, it fell to the second tier. By the time they do a 6e survey, it might be in the third tier, alongside Spelljammer, Mystara, and Birthright.


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## Parmandur (May 20, 2019)

Jester David said:


> Got it.
> Mearls lied to us when he said it was "theoretical".
> Lied. To. Our. Faces.
> 
> ...




I fail to see how "laying out conditional plans in detail" can be considered a lie of the conditions are met and the plans are carried out. That seems to be the opposite of a lie. It certainly wasn't a promise, as they had room to change their mind. But apparently the experiment was a success, so they followed through. When one says "I may do X if Y" and then does X, this is hardly dishonest.

The WGtE is a 175 page book. The non-Artificer UA material comes to 22 pages. This leaves over 150 pages of material that isn't set to be repeated, that is not available for free. Your mileage may vary, but that is not nothing.


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## Parmandur (May 20, 2019)

Abstruse said:


> Not even getting into the grammatical and typographical errors of someone starting off with "reading comprehension 0%", but let's back up a bit and say this:
> 
> Mike Mearls, on behalf of Wizards of the Coast, said the PDF would be updated with new material.
> 
> ...




The PDF has been updated over the course of the playtest, progressively. They haven't added the Artificer, but they did not make changes to the crunch parts over the Unearthed Arcana tests.


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## Jester David (May 20, 2019)

Psyzhran2357 said:


> Reading comprehension 0%, final course grade F, pleaew withdraw from this program, pleaseleave this institution and never come back.




I don't deserve this. 
ENWorld has just become a site I visit to argue and become frustrated. And I think this is the straw. 
So yes, I think I will.


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## Parmandur (May 20, 2019)

Jester David said:


> If I get a hardcopy of the physical book, I won't be happy. As half of that book will be reprinting something else. I'll have paid $80 for the book. Even if I get it at Amazon on a sale, I'll have paid more for that book that if I bought it at my FLGS.




So, there are about 22 pages that look set to be reprinted, that are already available for free: hardly half of either book. The Wayfarer's Guide had a percentage that included the playtest material, but there is more to it than that.



Jester David said:


> Here's the thing... they plan their books 18 months ahead. They already knew that they'd be doing the Eberron book. Okay, they might have had time to make last minute changes, but they probably already had it on the schedule when they released the _Wayfinder's Guide_, guessing what the response would be.
> 
> So it wasn't a "theoretical" book. I was a book already scheduled and planned. Hence why I feel lied to.




It was pretty obviously their plan and intention at the time. The theoretical fig leaf gave then room for the conditions not being met, and they could have cancelled it: they've done it before.


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## TwoSix (May 20, 2019)

Jester David said:


> Got it.
> Mearls lied to us when he said it was "theoretical".
> Lied. To. Our. Faces.



That tweet is 10 months old.  You don't think the hardcover might have gone from "theoretical" to "actual" within an almost year long period?

You're usually a pretty good poster, but this is a massively bad post.


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## a.everett1287 (May 20, 2019)

I mean, it's not like Dragonlance, Spelljammer, et al. are actually good.

Eberron, Dark Sun and Raveloft are really the only good ones. 

(I'm only half-kidding)


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## Azzy (May 20, 2019)

Jester David said:


> The_Wayfarer's Guide_ is 170 pages. It's BIG. Far from a quick intro. If you handed that to your players and told them to read it, their response would be "WTF, dude?!?"




Lol, nobody is going to tell them to read the entire thing. Because they don't need to read the entire thing to participate in an Eberron campaign. Bad argument.


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## EthanSental (May 20, 2019)

Agreed, Jester is usually a great poster but this Eberron book seem to have rubbed him the wrong way and I’m firmly in the camp of not buying it anyway and I don’t feel the need to post back and forths with others.  Take a couple days off Jester, from the topic of Eberron and come back


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## gyor (May 20, 2019)

Jester David said:


> Will it though?
> Will it _*really*_?
> 
> Or will it just have a comparable amount of world lore and just include an introductory adventure and some monsters rather than the section on Sharn?
> ...




 Bawhahaha,  you think a 170 pages is big. That not big,  it's a snack.


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## MonsterEnvy (May 20, 2019)

Jester David said:


> ha... ha...
> 
> If I get a hardcopy of the physical book, I won't be happy. As half of that book will be reprinting something else. I'll have paid $80 for the book. Even if I get it at Amazon on a sale, I'll have paid more for that book that if I bought it at my FLGS.




How do you know that half of the book will be reprinting something else? We don't know anything about the book yet.


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## Dire Bare (May 20, 2019)

Jester David said:


> Got it.
> Mearls lied to us when he said it was "theoretical".
> Lied. To. Our. Faces.




Jeesh, man. Give it a rest already. No, Mearls didn't lie, nobody at WotC lied. In fact, everything they told us when the Wayfinder's Guide launched still holds true and isn't contradicted AT ALL by Sunday's announcement.

We get it. You're not happy. Can we move on?


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## cmad1977 (May 21, 2019)

Nice! I love a good pout session.


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## SpellJammer16 (May 23, 2019)

Cool me and my 4 and 6 year olds LOVE Dungeon Mayhem.  They know who Minsc and Boo are as well!



The _Dungeon Mayhem_ card game is getting expansions featuring characters from Baldur's Gate, per Shelly Mazzanoble. First one: _The Battle for Baldur's Gate_.


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## gyor (Jun 15, 2019)

I know I complained about Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus being set on the Swordcoast again,  but that was BEFORE I knew about BG 3, I didn't have the whole context. I formily withdraw my complaints and in fact I have pre-ordered it.


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## Parmandur (Jun 15, 2019)

gyor said:


> I know I complained about Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus being set on the Swordcoast again,  but that was BEFORE I knew about BG 3, I didn't have the whole context. I formily withdraw my complaints and in fact I have pre-ordered it.




Well, I mean, we knew BG3 was in the hopper since last year...


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## gyor (Jun 15, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> Well, I mean, we knew BG3 was in the hopper since last year...




 It was a vague rumour and I was expecting something from Beamdog or similar developer, nothing like this. It changes everything. I also didn't know that BGIA was acting as a Prequel.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jun 15, 2019)

Actually, there had been rumours linking Larian to BG3 since last year. And if you follow what goes on at Beamdog it was pretty obvious that they had failed to get the licence for BG3 and changed direction.

And the Bhaal logo all over the Decent packaging was kind of a very big clue...


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