# Am I the only one who doesn't like the D&D Vampire? (Pointless rant, I suppose)



## Green Knight (Jul 13, 2002)

I got 3 beefs with the vampire. Let me go through them. 

1)* Slam Attack* - What the hell is this? They slam into you? And how exactly is it that this drains levels out of you? I'd appreciate it if someone can explaint his to me, because I don't get it. 

2)* Blood Drain* - Ok, draining CON points makes perfect sense. But_ PERMANENTLY_? They can't be serious! A vampire bites you once and you NEVER recover from it? This makes no sense. 

3)* Vampire Spawn* - Nevermind that these should be templates. But why is it you have to be 5th level or higher to become a full-fledged vampire, while anything less only makes you a Vampire Spawn? Either way, you're still under the thrall of the vampire which created you, so it really doesn't make a difference. 

4)* Vampire Creation* - Now that I think about it, I've got FOUR beefs with the vampire. Namely that it's TO EASY to create a new vampire. You create a vampire when you kill someone with the energy drain (The aformentioned "slam" attack, which sounds as if you're slapping the levels out of people), or when you kill them through your bite, and you create either a Vampire or a Vampire Spawn. Doesn't that strike anyone else as just too easy? Wouldn't D&D worlds be running amock with vampires in that case? The only way a vampire can avoid creating a new vampire is by NOT draining their victim completely. Does that make sense to anyone? 

Ah well. Just needed to get that off my chest as those 4 items really teed me off about the D&D vampire. Feel free to disparage my points all you like if you disagree. Thank you for your time.


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## LostSoul (Jul 13, 2002)

I only allow energy drain through the bite attack (along with the Con drain).

I'm looking for some way of having vampires with different powers and weaknesses... as though they were a demon type unto themselves.


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## Green Knight (Jul 13, 2002)

Personally I don't see the point of an Energy Drain at all, when they drain Con. The average person will be dead after 4 rounds  on average (24 seconds) if a Vampire gets a good hold on them and drains them dry. Why suck out levels, too? 

My problem with that is here the Con damage is permanent. Zuh? Yeah, you'd be pretty sickly for a while, but eventually you'd recover from the blood loss. I don't see why the Con damage should be permanent.


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## Richards (Jul 13, 2002)

Perhaps you'd prefer a vampire variant that Sean K. Reynolds posted on his website:

http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/monsters/fleshboundvampire.html 

His "fleshbound vampire" only temporarily drains Constitution points and doesn't drain levels with a slam attack.  It's more like a "Buffy" vampire than a "D&D" vampire.

Johnathan


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## Furn_Darkside (Jul 13, 2002)

*I have actually never met one...*

Salutations,

They definitly went with the From Dusk til Dawn vampire over the classic Bela Lugosi vampire.

The few times I have used vampires- I have altered them to meet my feelings at the time, but it is not big deal the way they are now.

FD


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## LostSoul (Jul 13, 2002)

Green Knight said:
			
		

> *Personally I don't see the point of an Energy Drain at all, when they drain Con. The average person will be dead after 4 rounds  on average (24 seconds) if a Vampire gets a good hold on them and drains them dry. Why suck out levels, too?
> 
> My problem with that is here the Con damage is permanent. Zuh? Yeah, you'd be pretty sickly for a while, but eventually you'd recover from the blood loss. I don't see why the Con damage should be permanent. *




I allow a Fort save to avoid the negative levels in the first place, and I don't have anything cause permanent damage.  I just think permanent damage is cheesy.  And I don't have Clerics in the game, so Restoration is hard to come by.


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## ColonelHardisson (Jul 13, 2002)

Green Knight said:
			
		

> *1) Slam Attack - What the hell is this? *




It would have been great if, instead, they did a Belly-to-Belly Soufflex and put you in the Camel Clutch. 

Wrasslin' vampires!


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## Furn_Darkside (Jul 13, 2002)

*Re: Re: Am I the only one who doesn't like the D&D Vampire? (Pointless rant, I suppose)*



			
				ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Wrasslin' vampires! *




Argh, good thing George 'The Animal' Steele is not around anymore..

FD


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## coyote6 (Jul 13, 2002)

1) Check out the MM, p. 7: "Slam: The creature batters opponents with an appendage, dealing bludgeoning damage."

It's not a body slam or anything like that; it's just a smack. A punch, kick, elbow, backhand, pimp slap, whatever. "Slam" is shorthand for "some kind of unarmed attack that doesn't use claws or anything, but counts as an armed attack for purposes of most rules."

It drains levels 'cause vampires are fueled by negative energy, and negative energy drains levels. That's how undead work in D&D, mostly.

2) That's the way vampires work in D&D. They drain you permanently. They do that in other game systems, too -- if you lose Essence to a Shadowrun vamp, it ain't coming back. Actually, I think that fits with at least some legends -- once you've been the victim of a vampire, you feel the effects forever.

Besides, "permanent" drain isn't. Attributes permanently lost don't recover naturally, but powerful enough magic will bring 'em back. _Restoration_ is "only" 4th level.

3) Vampire spawn & vampires have different powers. Spawn _charm_ rather than _dominate_, they don't summon animals, don't heal as fast, etc.

It could (and probably should) be a template; however, such a template would only apply to creatures of 4 HD or less, and would raise any creature with less than 4 HD to 4 HD. See, vampires, even vampire spawn, can only be so weak. Even a baby kobold would become a 4 HD creature.

4) The ease of vampire creation is true of certain vampire legends. I don't understand how any humans survived in Transylvania, if anyone killed by a vamp rises in three days. That's one thing I like about the Anne Rice/VtM/Buffy-style vamps -- they have to take _action_ to make a vamp.

It's pretty easy to prevent most vampire victims from rising -- you just burn the bodies. "Realistically", societies afflicted with D&D vamps would probably take to cremating all of their dead. Then you'd only get new vamps in unusual circumstances (e.g., vamp guards the body, body lost, etc.)

And, actually, I notice that it says they rise "1d4 days *after burial* [emphasis added]". So if there's no burial, there's no rising -- which will cut out the corpses dropped in the wilderness and such.

Me, I'm not real fond of the D&D vampire either -- but I use it in D&D, 'cause, well, it's part of the game. However, you can create alternates. Sean Reynolds created a more physical vamp, with no energy drain, no slam attack, no spell-like abilities, & its bite does temporary Con damage; check it out. It even gives an ECL modifier, so you can have PC vamps!


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## mythusmage (Jul 13, 2002)

Like vampires?

You don't _like_vampires. You fear vampires, you dread vampires, you hate vampires with a passion deep and abiding. You never _like_vampires.

They nasty folks, they is.

As to the permanent Con loss. Think of it as a curse. So long as the vampire "lives" the victim does not recover the loss. To recover you must destroy the beast. Makes dealing with them harder and their destruction more imperative.

If you must go hunting vampires, get your holy water in the gallon jugs.


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## Green Knight (Jul 13, 2002)

> ) Check out the MM, p. 7: "Slam: The creature batters opponents with an appendage, dealing bludgeoning damage."
> 
> It's not a body slam or anything like that; it's just a smack. A punch, kick, elbow, backhand, pimp slap, whatever. "Slam" is shorthand for "some kind of unarmed attack that doesn't use claws or anything, but counts as an armed attack for purposes of most rules."
> 
> It drains levels 'cause vampires are fueled by negative energy, and negative energy drains levels. That's how undead work in D&D, mostly.




So it does, in fact, slap the levels out of you.


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## Green Knight (Jul 13, 2002)

> Besides, "permanent" drain isn't. Attributes permanently lost don't recover naturally, but powerful enough magic will bring 'em back. Restoration is "only" 4th level.




What about the average person who doesn't have access to 4th level spells? Isn't someone who's a victim of a vampire attack just supposed to be sick for a while (As a result of the blood loss), and then recover as if nothing happened? It'd be pretty dumb if half the population in the countryside was pasty white and sickly for the rest of their lives. 



> As to the permanent Con loss. Think of it as a curse. So long as the vampire "lives" the victim does not recover the loss. To recover you must destroy the beast. Makes dealing with them harder and their destruction more imperative.




But according to the rules, killing the vampire who bit you doesn't get you your lost CON back. And again, I go back to my previous point. Killing a vampire who bites you isn't exactly an option to your average Joe Schmoe, and the thought of an entire villages population being sickly pale for the rest of their lives seems pretty dumb. 

Whoever said it has a good point, though, about a Vampire Spawn template.


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## Green Knight (Jul 13, 2002)

Another comment on the subject of a permanent Con loss. That makes the idea of a vampire who plants roots pretty dumb. 

For instance, a vampire's preying on a town and drains people left and right, but doesn't kill them. Before you know it, everyone's down to like a Con of 2 or 3 and can't possibly recover. So the vampire can't stick around. He has to leave, as he starts running out of healthy victims. And once he's out of healthy victims, the only thing left is to kill everyone. That's assuming they last that long. If they're so sickly then how can they possibly work, farm, make a living, etc? All in all, the permanent Con loss is stupid. 

BTW: Thanks for the link. I'll go check out Seans vampire, now.


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## mythusmage (Jul 13, 2002)

Who said your vampires _must_be like the ones in the book? Should someone complain your vampires are not according to the rules remind them, "I don't use vampires as they appear on Oerth, I use vampires as they appear on my world."

Make them uncertain of their ability, and fearful of what they're facing. Being sure they know what they're facing has ruined many a good adventure for the players.


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## Furn_Darkside (Jul 13, 2002)

Green Knight said:
			
		

> *
> What about the average person who doesn't have access to 4th level spells? Isn't someone who's a victim of a vampire attack just supposed to be sick for a while (As a result of the blood loss), and then recover as if nothing happened? It'd be pretty dumb if half the population in the countryside was pasty white and sickly for the rest of their lives. . *




Why is it dumb?

Vampires are not over-sized mosquitos.

Being bitten by one is being drained of more then blood- but of your body's overall life force.. err. .constitution.

As for what is the average person to do.. well.. that is what adventurers are for, to help the average people.

FD


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## LostSoul (Jul 13, 2002)

Furn_Darkside said:
			
		

> *Why is it dumb?*




I thought the argument about vampires not being able to set up roots was a good answer to your question.

But nothing makes sense in D&D, so why should vampires?


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## Andrew D. Gable (Jul 13, 2002)

Green Knight said:
			
		

> 3)* Vampire Spawn* - Nevermind that these should be templates. But why is it you have to be 5th level or higher to become a full-fledged vampire, while anything less only makes you a Vampire Spawn? Either way, you're still under the thrall of the vampire which created you, so it really doesn't make a difference.




As another gripe - wouldn't vampire spawn become vampires as they advance?  Lucy Westenra, in Dracula, is my idea of a vampire spawn - and I believe she would have become a full vampire, were she not slain by Van Helsing.


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## TheWiseWarlord (Jul 13, 2002)

I'd just like to point out the Vampire is hardly the only D&D monster that "doesn't make sense".  They're good to throw at hapless adventurers, so what's the problem?  They're good at what they're meant to do, and that's enough for me.  

If you want more "realistic" monsters, there are a few dozen monsters that need work in that area.  Have fun with the house rules.


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## coyote6 (Jul 13, 2002)

Green Knight said:
			
		

> *Another comment on the subject of a permanent Con loss. That makes the idea of a vampire who plants roots pretty dumb.
> 
> For instance, a vampire's preying on a town and drains people left and right, but doesn't kill them. Before you know it, everyone's down to like a Con of 2 or 3 and can't possibly recover. *




Actually, that's not necessarily a problem. I don't see anything in the vampire description that says they have to drain blood! They don't actually seem to get anything out of it, oddly enough.

The energy drain does restore hp, so that's of some use. Fortunately, it's also not necessarily permanent -- the victim can recover, if they're lucky enough to make the DC. And they can always get more XP and regain any lost levels . . .

My pet dire peeve about D&D vampires is that, barring extremely powerful clerics (or merely powerful clerics with the Sun domain) or a couple of spells (_sunbeam_, _sunburst_), there's *no* way to kill them in a fight! You have to beat them up, then play follow the fog back to the coffin where you wait for 'em to reform, so you can stake, behead, and burn 'em, or drag 'em into the sun or dunk 'em in running water. Oh, if you could somehow manage to make a vamp helpless in a fight, you could stake him. But how're you going to manage that, given undead immunities and the gaseous form ability?

Before I saw SKR's variant, I was toying with the idea of allowing a critical hit on a vamp (or what would be a crit, if the target weren't undead) with a wooden stake to count as a stake to the heart, forcing the vamp to make a Fort save (a la coup de grace, or Sean's vamp rules). A crit-only approach makes it much harder to stake a vamp in a fight than SKR's rule -- I kind of like that, at least for non-mook vamps. Otherwise, the PCs will dust Gulthias in the first round . . .

But anyways.


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## Tonguez (Jul 13, 2002)

Green Knight said:
			
		

> *Another comment on the subject of a permanent Con loss. That makes the idea of a vampire who plants roots pretty dumb.
> 
> For instance, a vampire's preying on a town and drains people left and right, but doesn't kill them. Before you know it, everyone's down to like a Con of 2 or 3 and can't possibly recover. So the vampire can't stick around. He has to leave, as he starts running out of healthy victims. And once he's out of healthy victims, the only thing left is to kill everyone. That's assuming they last that long. If they're so sickly then how can they possibly work, farm, make a living, etc? All in all, the permanent Con loss is stupid.
> 
> BTW: Thanks for the link. I'll go check out Seans vampire, now. *




Humans breed and baby humans grow and have full Con
If you have a population in thrall and with low con because they have been drained then you have cattle who can't not fight back. These cattle still breed and grow new cattle who sustain your need to feed

I like the slams too - imagine your vampire leaping at your throat taking hold and slamming your body into the wall were you now hang helpless as it mocks you and seeks to dominate your mind

and yes Con drain should be 'permanent' - if a Vampire doesn't kill you then it leaves you with a permanently 'scarred'


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## KnowTheToe (Jul 13, 2002)

*Re: I have actually never met one...*



			
				Furn_Darkside said:
			
		

> *Salutations,
> 
> They definitly went with the From Dusk til Dawn vampire over the classic Bela Lugosi vampire.
> 
> ...




Definitely, not once do they EVER mention their tag line of "I vant to suck your blood" (in transavanian accent)


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## Nightfall (Jul 13, 2002)

I've always preferred liches.  Easier to deal with.


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## GuardianLurker (Jul 13, 2002)

coyote6 said:
			
		

> *
> ...or dunk 'em in running water.
> *




Belug the Vampire: Mwah-ha-ha! You can not defeat me!
PC: Oh, yeah! Check this out! [points wondorous item at vamp]
Vamp: NOOO! Not a Decanter of Endless Water!
PC: [Whoosh!]
Vamp: Argh! I'm melting... melting....


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## TheWiseWarlord (Jul 13, 2002)

GuardianLurker said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Belug the Vampire: Mwah-ha-ha! You can not defeat me!
> PC: Oh, yeah! Check this out! [points wondorous item at vamp]
> ...




Technically, I don't think that counts as running water.  But you got a chuckle from me nonetheless.


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## EricNoah (Jul 13, 2002)

I would love to see a small collection of vampire and ghost variants.  Vampires, in particular, should be Lords of the Undead, in my opinion -- with the ability to command lesser undead, etc.


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## Psion (Jul 13, 2002)

LostSoul said:
			
		

> *I thought the argument about vampires not being able to set up roots was a good answer to your question.*




Not really. There is no reason that vampire have to treat humans like milk cows. They can treat them like beef cattle as well.

I have vampires that can feed of a clutch of a human in my game. All I do is make the con drain temporary. But that's an explicit decision... there is no reason vampires HAVE to feed of a group of willing cattle. They can just be killers.


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## Psion (Jul 13, 2002)

TheWiseWarlord said:
			
		

> *I'd just like to point out the Vampire is hardly the only D&D monster that "doesn't make sense".*




I'd like to point out that Vampires of D&D, much like WoD vampries, Anne Rice vampires, etc., are a conflation of various folklores and holywood tack-ons. Nothing makes one "make sense" more than another. If that vampire doesn't do it for you, swap out some abilities to make it what you want it to be or find a version that works for you. (Vlad the Impaler has a version of the vampire more true to folklore, and Ravenloafe (  ) Denizens of Darkness has some vampire variants.)


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## LostSoul (Jul 13, 2002)

Psion said:
			
		

> *Not really. There is no reason that vampire have to treat humans like milk cows. They can treat them like beef cattle as well.*




Humans take a lot longer to grow than cattle.  So if they treat 'em like beef cattle, soon you'll have a ghost town.  Or a whole horde of vampire spawn.

I guess they could feed rarely... like once a month or something.  Oh well.  The problem is that D&D vampires don't always fit your vision of "real" vampires.  So you change them to fit that view.

Or you tell yourself to stop thinking about things.


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## Arcane Runes Press (Jul 13, 2002)

It's also easy to reconcile this way:

Pretty much every item, spell, location, enviromental hazard, monster, etc. in the 3 core books is written with an eye to how it interacts with a PC party during their adventures.

From that perspective, it stands to reason that a vampire's drain would be listed as permanent; when it's facing hardened warriors and wizards, it wants to kill with its bite.

Outside of that PC party interaction, however, it's easy enough to assume that the vampire can turn off the perma-drain when it's drinking from it's "herd". 

Just my 1.5 cents

Patrick Y.


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## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 13, 2002)

LostSoul said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Humans take a lot longer to grow than cattle.  So if they treat 'em like beef cattle, soon you'll have a ghost town.  Or a whole horde of vampire spawn.*




Or both--*'Salem's Lot*.



[edit - fix bad formatting]


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## Bran Blackbyrd (Jul 13, 2002)

I'm partial to the way Anne Rice's vampires work, but translating them to 3E in a way that would do them justice AND work within the confines of the rules would be a chunk of work.
You'd need rules for what abilities are passed to new vampires by their creators, and how their power levels grow over time, how bleeding a lot or making fledglings saps or dilutes the strength of their blood, for the purposes of passing on those powers... Still it would be neat.

I don't particularly care for the vampires in D&D.


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## SableWyvern (Jul 13, 2002)

I think the problem here is with the efficacy of the TSR marketing department. I was DMing for 10 years before I bought my first book of monsters (ICE's Creatures and Treasures).

IMO, the Monster Manual, and the equivalents for other game systems, are for lazy DMs (and note that I own the MM, and am pulling most of the monsters for my current campaign out of it; I have become lazy).

Books full of monsters, Vampires or otherwise, are not core rulebooks. They are crutches. Make your own critters. Use PC race antagonists. Apply the bigger-picture affects of vampire abilities in your campaign, or, if you don't like them, alter what's written.

The Monster Manual is just an adventure module without a plot. It has no import beyond that. Treat it as such, and change what doesn't suit your campaign. Don't give it the same respect that you do the PHB or the DMG.

The D&D vampire is perfectly reasonable. But, it is based on a widespread and varied myth, open to huge interpretation. No matter what WotC did, it was never going fit the archetype, because there is none.


Flame Away.


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## Marion Poliquin (Jul 13, 2002)

Green Knight said:
			
		

> *For instance, a vampire's preying on a town and drains people left and right, but doesn't kill them. Before you know it, everyone's down to like a Con of 2 or 3 and can't possibly recover. So the vampire can't stick around. He has to leave, as he starts running out of healthy victims. And once he's out of healthy victims, the only thing left is to kill everyone. That's assuming they last that long. If they're so sickly then how can they possibly work, farm, make a living, etc? *




Which is exactly why the town is in dire need of heroes to help them.

Damn! You just described a _great_ adventure introduction  and you're calling it stupid?


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## mmadsen (Jul 13, 2002)

> I'm partial to the way Anne Rice's vampires work, but translating them to 3E in a way that would do them justice AND work within the confines of the rules would be a chunk of work.



I don't think it would be _that_ hard.  Make Vampire a class, not a template, and have spawning a new Vampire cost experience.


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## coyote6 (Jul 13, 2002)

FWIW, the permanent Con drain can make a great clue that Something Is Up. 

When the PCs in my group returned to Oakhurst, and found the townsfolk huddling inside at night, they quickly surmised "vampire". After they killed poor Corkie the gnome cleric-turned-vampire spawn, they noticed that Kerowyn Hucrele was pale and wan from "a lingering illness", got suspicious, detected powerful enchantment magic on her, and quickly concluded that Corkie hadn't been the root of the problem.

In that case, I made the permanent Con loss work for me. Same thing with other characteristics of D&D vampires that I don't really like (e.g., some of the town's constables had lost levels while trying to fight the spawn, and were thus unable to provide any real help; the PCs defeated two spawn in the Sunless Citadel, and ended up having to race to get to their coffins before the pair healed and came back for more -- the PCs, being completely out of spells, most scrolls & the like exhausted, and mostly with about 20-25% hp, were in no shape or mood to fight 'em again).

You can either change the vampire, or accept that D&D vampires are their own special breed (just as Rice, Buffy, VtM, SR, and GURPS vampires are all different) and use how it works to your advantage. Either one is doable.


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## Darkness (Jul 13, 2002)

SableWyvern said:
			
		

> *...
> 
> Books full of monsters, Vampires or otherwise, are not core rulebooks. They are crutches. Make your own critters. Use PC race antagonists. Apply the bigger-picture affects of vampire abilities in your campaign, or, if you don't like them, alter what's written.
> 
> ...



Truer words have seldom been spoken... Rock on, SableWyvern!


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## Green Knight (Jul 13, 2002)

Marion Poliquin said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Which is exactly why the town is in dire need of heroes to help them.
> 
> Damn! You just described a great adventure introduction  and you're calling it stupid? *




Yes, because the only way you can help this town is if you can cast the Restoration spell 50 or so times, or have 50+ scrolls with Restoration on them. A town being tormented by a vampire is a good idea, but you don't need to make the CON drain permanent for it to be a good plot idea. And the permanent CON loss makes it pretty much impossible for you to have a situation in which this vampire has been preying on this village for decades or even centuries, and by this time the people are nothing more than sheep. You can't do a story like that because according to the rules as they are, they'd all be dead long before. 



> and how their power levels grow over time, how bleeding a lot or making fledglings saps or dilutes the strength of their blood, for the purposes of passing on those powers... Still it would be neat.




Actually the Ravenloft book has rules for vampires who become more powerful over time. 

And don't vampires need to feed daily? Flipped through the monster manual and didn't see feeding requirements mentioned. But when it comes to the argument of "Those sickly people having kids and feeding on them", that wouldn't work either. First of all, is a woman with Con 3 healthy enough to successfully give birth to a baby? Second, is this vampire gonna wait til the kids 17+ so the kid can have its own kids and the vampire can then feed on him? 

Using humans as cattle won't work, as humans age so slowly. Nine months to give birth, 14 or so years before you're able to have your own children, and you expect the vampire to wait that long? That's assuming the women actually survive the child birth, thanks to their poor Con. 

A blood drain is a blood drain. I don't see why it should be any different then when you give blood, except of course it's more violent and you lose a lot more. Eventually your body produces more blood and your back up to snuff, again. Yeah, the D&D vampire is a composite of various vampire legends, but I have yet to see any mention anywhere of a vampire bite staying with you forever. 

Going back to the village example, whenever you see stories of sickly villagers, it's because the vampire feeds off the same victims over and over again. He feeds off Villager A, draining him to CON 3 and making him sick. He then feeds off Villager B who's in full health, draining her to CON 2. As soon as Villager A recovers, he feeds on him, again. And so on and so on. 

BTW: I know I can change it to suit my tastes (Namely no stupid slam attack, no permanent CON drain, and more involved vampire creation process). Just felt like ranting about the vampire as it is in the Monster Manual.


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## Darkness (Jul 13, 2002)

Green Knight said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Yes, because the only way you can help this town is if you can cast the Restoration spell 50 or so times, or have 50+ scrolls with Restoration on them. A town being tormented by a vampire is a good idea, but you don't need to make the CON drain permanent for it to be a good plot idea. And the permanent CON loss makes it pretty much impossible for you to have a situation in which this vampire has been preying on this village for decades or even centuries, and by this time the people are nothing more than sheep. You can't do a story like that because according to the rules as they are, they'd all be dead long before.
> 
> ...



The Monster Manual doesn't say how often a vampire needs to feed... Daily seems a bit much to me, though.
Hmm... Weekly sounds best IMNSHO. Which would mean 52 times a year. Assuming an average of 10-11 Con, a vampire will be able to feed on a given person three times before killing him or her. Some people will die from other causes before the vampire can feed for the third time on them, I think, though.

Also, when the vampire is haunting a small village, he'll probably feed on travelers whenever possible, too.


(Note: My own feelings on the vampire's permanent Con drain are quite negative - but I'm willing to give the rule a chance if that seems possible... )


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## mmadsen (Jul 13, 2002)

> I got 3 beefs with the vampire.



And yet you list four...

"No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!" 


> 1)* Slam Attack* - What the hell is this? They slam into you? And how exactly is it that this drains levels out of you? I'd appreciate it if someone can explaint his to me, because I don't get it.



As coyote6 pointed out, a "slam" is any bludgeoning attack with a natural weapon.  That said, it still makes little sense.  If I want kung-fu vampires, I'll make up some kung-fu vampires.  That shouldn't be the default.

(Similarly, I don't like the idea of Zombies "slamming" either.  I prefer that they grapple then rend or bite.  Maybe I've just watched too many Romero movies...)

And, I agree, I don't see why this should drain levels (or "life force" or whatever).  Is there _any_ vampire myth where they slap the life force out of their victims?


> 2)* Blood Drain* - Ok, draining CON points makes perfect sense. But_ PERMANENTLY_? They can't be serious! A vampire bites you once and you NEVER recover from it? This makes no sense.



I'm not too concerned about that, but, yeah, I think they should return more quickly than _never_.  At least Restoration works. 


> 3)* Vampire Spawn* - ...
> 4)* Vampire Creation* - ...



As I said before, I think making Vampire a class can solve some of those problems.  I especially don't see the point in a static template for something you can advance in, and vampires seem to progress from weak spawn to more powerful vampires over time.


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## Corinth (Jul 13, 2002)

The use of the template for vampires is a good idea for handling the differences that occur when someone's transformed into one of them.  Using the class mechanic to advance their powers over time, OTOH, is the ideal method to handle the concept that those vampires become more powerful over time.  Both are applicable.


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## LostSoul (Jul 13, 2002)

coyote6 said:
			
		

> *FWIW, the permanent Con drain can make a great clue that Something Is Up. *




Or that Something Was Up 10, 20, 50 years ago, when the Vampire strolled through town and drained a couple people.


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## Tonguez (Jul 14, 2002)

Okay I did some maths (and made lots of assumptions)

Okay small village of 200 people average con 10
Assuming a Vampire needs to feed _once/week_ and does not drain a person entirely in one go but only requires _3 con worth of blood each time_ then a Vamp could survive on 1 victim per month (roughly) - thats _12 per year_ which means a Vamp in a town of 200 has _16 years_ of food available (which we will make 10 due to death by other causes, age, babies etc)

So A Vamp feeding of one village of 200 can survive for 10 years

Now most successful Vampires are Lords other their domain (Dracula was Lord of Transylvania) so we can assume more than one village - say 5 villages of 200 -  1000 people or 50 years worth of food.
50 years is about 3 generations for humans (assuming woman have babies from age 15) ergo the Vampire has 3 generations of human cattle to feed upon without counting stray Travellers and victims from foreign raids.

With the above assumptions the idea of Vampires 'milking' a village of permanent con is plausible, remember too that Vampires can sleep for a few years if they think that the Stock needs time to recover.
During this time they can have other agents keep the stock under control or even make a deal with the local village to not molest them as long as they protect the Master!

YMMV


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## Bran Blackbyrd (Jul 14, 2002)

Hmm, maybe it would work better if there was a vampire prestige class with the prerequisite being that the (N)PC have the/a vampire template?

I don't know how often a D&D vampire has to feed, but the Anne Rice vamps I like so well don't have to feed at all. But that's usually only an option for the ones ancient enough to become really strong. The young ones go without food for a while and they get pretty weak. In game terms, going without food when you're too young a vampire to handle it would probably cause a temporary inability to use certain powers, or a temporary reduction of ability scores.


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## Zhure (Jul 14, 2002)

Maybe there are lots of cleric vampires who cast _restoration/lesser restoration_ on their victims.


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## A2Z (Jul 14, 2002)

I to never really liked the D&D vampire. Maybe this is blasphemy, but, I'd really like to see a new vampire template (or series of templates) based on the _Vampire:The Masqerade_ vampires. Think about it. You could have different bloodline based on the different clans. And each might have different powers based on what Disciplines are available to each bloodline.

Celerity = Haste, Potence = Incresed Strength, Protean = Some form of shapechanging, Thaumaturge = spellcasting ability and so on.

I don't  know I just always thought vampires should be more than simply another monster to kill. I've always liked the somewhat romantic portrail of vampires in games like _The Masqeurade_ and books like Anne Rice's.

On another note, another good idea for vampires comes from the Legacy of Kain playstation games. After thousands of years the oldest vampires have 'evolved' into insanely powerful creatures. Sort of the equivalent of Methuselah and Antideluvian vampires. I'm not quite sure how you would model this increase in power with a template though. Would an increase in power when a vampire reaches a certain age work with a template?


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## el-remmen (Jul 14, 2002)

Funny this should come up - but just the other day I added "New Vampire Template" to my "Things to Do" list for Aquerra. . . 

I want a more classic and fearsome vampire. . .


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## Bran Blackbyrd (Jul 14, 2002)

Well Green Knight, your "pointless rant" has garnered 46 posts so far without any  flames. I'd say that's a decent accomplishment.

nemmerle, that sounds interesting. If you make one please let us know how it turns out. BTW, have you seen my post on the last page of the Favorite Monster Book  thread?  It's a little blast from the past.


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## MeepoTheMighty (Jul 15, 2002)

Bran Blackbyrd said:
			
		

> *Well Green Knight, your "pointless rant" has garnered 46 posts so far without any  flames. I'd say that's a decent accomplishment.
> *




Except for the guy who said that anyone who uses the monster manual is lazy and using a crutch..


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## mmadsen (Jul 15, 2002)

> The use of the template for vampires is a good idea for handling the differences that occur when someone's transformed into one of them.  Using the class mechanic to advance their powers over time, OTOH, is the ideal method to handle the concept that those vampires become more powerful over time.  Both are applicable.



Wouldn't it make sense then to make Vampire a Prestige Class?  It could grant all the special abilities "necessary" to be a Vampire (or Vampire Spawn) at 1st level, and it could slowly add on more power with each level.  I don't see the benefit of the template.


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## hong (Jul 15, 2002)

A2Z said:
			
		

> *I don't  know I just always thought vampires should be more than simply another monster to kill. I've always liked the somewhat romantic portrail of vampires in games like The Masqeurade and books like Anne Rice's.
> *




You'll probably hate the hopping vampire and penanggolan, then.


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## Green Knight (Jul 15, 2002)

Bran Blackbyrd said:
			
		

> *Well Green Knight, your "pointless rant" has garnered 46 posts so far without any  flames. I'd say that's a decent accomplishment.*




That's saying something considering I've got a short fuse. I half expected to be the one to start the flaming in this thread.  

In regards to my saying I had 3 beefs with the vampire... 



			
				mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> And yet you list four...
> 
> "No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!" *



* 

What can I say? I like to keep people on their toes. Nah, I just happened to have thought of a 4th thing that I didn't like about them that I had previously forgotten and didn't feel like changing what I had already written. 




			And, I agree, I don't see why this should drain levels (or "life force" or whatever). Is there any vampire myth where they slap the life force out of their victims?
		
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Yeah. That must be one HELL of a bitchslap! 




			Funny this should come up - but just the other day I added "New Vampire Template" to my "Things to Do" list for Aquerra. . . 

I want a more classic and fearsome vampire. . .
		
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Link, please? 




			Or that Something Was Up 10, 20, 50 years ago, when the Vampire strolled through town and drained a couple people.
		
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 LMAO! Nice and succint. I like it! Hehehe. 




			The use of the template for vampires is a good idea for handling the differences that occur when someone's transformed into one of them. Using the class mechanic to advance their powers over time, OTOH, is the ideal method to handle the concept that those vampires become more powerful over time. Both are applicable.
		
Click to expand...



Do you have the Ravenloft campaign setting book? In it, vampires gain greater powers the older they get. Personally, I like those rules a lot. To bad their based on the crap foundation that is the D&D Vampire. 




			I to never really liked the D&D vampire. Maybe this is blasphemy, but, I'd really like to see a new vampire template (or series of templates) based on the Vampire:The Masqerade vampires. Think about it. You could have different bloodline based on the different clans. And each might have different powers based on what Disciplines are available to each bloodline.

Celerity = Haste, Potence = Incresed Strength, Protean = Some form of shapechanging, Thaumaturge = spellcasting ability and so on.
		
Click to expand...



Unless White Wolf puts out D20 books, I doubt we'd ever see such a thing. And whatever else you may say about Vampire: The Masquerade (And personally I never liked the setting or the angst ridden vampire characters. Ugh!), at least their rules for vampires were very well done. They covered all the angles very nicely. As someone else said, there really isn't one single vampire archtype. There're several. White Wolf did an excellent job in representing that. D&D should've done the same. For instance having a list of powers for the vampire to choose from, like the ghost (Which gets 1d3 special attacks out of its list of special attacks). That would've been a nice way to create variety amongst vampires. 

But most importantly, I like their rules for creating new vampires. I don't like this bit at all about a new vampire being created when they suck someone dry (Or energy drain them. So bitchslapping someone creates a new vampire?). Pretty much every RPG I've seen requires the vampire make an effort to create a new vampire. Whether it be Rifts, White Wolf, or whatever else. And it's not as if that's unfounded. Didn't Dracula have to feed his blood to someone he wanted to turn into a vampire in order to create one? Sucking them dry til they were dead wasn't enough to do it.  




			I don't know I just always thought vampires should be more than simply another monster to kill. I've always liked the somewhat romantic portrail of vampires in games like The Masqeurade and books like Anne Rice's.
		
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I don't, but that's just me. I much prefer them as horrific monsters over angst ridden and romantic vampires. 




			On another note, another good idea for vampires comes from the Legacy of Kain playstation games. After thousands of years the oldest vampires have 'evolved' into insanely powerful creatures. Sort of the equivalent of Methuselah and Antideluvian vampires. I'm not quite sure how you would model this increase in power with a template though. Would an increase in power when a vampire reaches a certain age work with a template?
		
Click to expand...



Again, I point to the Ravenloft campaign setting book. It has rules for just such a thing. Vampires aging and becoming more powerful over time.*


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## ColonelHardisson (Jul 15, 2002)

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> Wouldn't it make sense then to make Vampire a Prestige Class?  It could grant all the special abilities "necessary" to be a Vampire (or Vampire Spawn) at 1st level, and it could slowly add on more power with each level.  I don't see the benefit of the template. *




A prestige class would not make sense. A template along the lines of the half fiend would make more sense.


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## Hand of Vecna (Jul 15, 2002)

The _Ravenloft Campaign Setting_ book states that Vampires must ingest no fewer than 4 points of Constitution/blood per day. For each day it does not feed, it suffers 1 negative level (an exception ot the normal rule that undead can't gain negative levels). It also states that, though Vampires prefer the blood of humans/humanoids, it can feed from animals and corpses, but it only gains 1 point of Con in "nourishment" for every 2 points of Con drained in this manner.


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## Storminator (Jul 15, 2002)

The following is long.

The vampire is a very interesting collection of myths. I did a folklore project in college on vampires, and while my take on the situation is not universally agreed with, I did get both an A+ and a special mention, so it's not totally off the wall. Here goes:

Look at aspects of mythic vampires: 
1) power over death
2) mental domination
3) lives in darkness
4) controls wild animals
5) blood

These are some of mankind's most basic and primal fears. These are all things that, in general, you can't do anything about. Death is beyond you. If you're controlled, you're helpless, the night comes whether you wish it or no, and darkness has always been scary and dangerous. Wild animals are, by definition, beyond your control, and blood has always held magic powers in primative societies.

So the vampire is everything we collectively fear and can never overcome. The vampire is the physical embodiment our fears. And what do we do about it? You don't just kill a vampire, you savage it, you mutilate it, you burn it, behead it, stake it, destroy it, and still fear what it may have created. You take out all your fears and frustrations of life on this avatar of evil.

The D&D vampire is most decidedly not this creature. To maintain the spirit of the vampire in D&D form, it must be everything your players fear and hate, and it must be nearly impossible to destroy. 

In short, it must have damage resistance, and spell resistance, it must destroy levels, stats, and magic items. It should burn unspent spell slots. It should turn PCs against PCs (Dominate power works) and it should turn familiars against masters. Its damage should resist magic healing, and when slain, it must return again and again. 

This beast isn't the classic vampire either, but PCs aren't afraid of the things normal people are afraid of. The vampire should be the scariest thing you ever face, something that you never forget, and that your characters never want to see again.

Then you will be true to the myths of the vampire, even if the powers aren't found in stories.

PS


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## Vaxalon (Jul 15, 2002)

Hey, sounds like a great monster, Storminator!

Care to write it up for us?


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## Kid Charlemagne (Jul 15, 2002)

A2Z said:
			
		

> *I to never really liked the D&D vampire. Maybe this is blasphemy, but, I'd really like to see a new vampire template (or series of templates) based on the Vampire:The Masqerade vampires. Think about it. You could have different bloodline based on the different clans. And each might have different powers based on what Disciplines are available to each bloodline.
> 
> Celerity = Haste, Potence = Incresed Strength, Protean = Some form of shapechanging, Thaumaturge = spellcasting ability and so on. *




There is such a thing - Ron Poirier wrote up a 2e version of somethign he called the Vampiricon.  It was a port of WoD vampires to AD&D.  I used it in my 2e campaign world, and have been using bits for my 3e campaigns.  

EDIT: I found the file at Blue Troll .

I've toyed with updating it fully for 3e, as well as the concept of a vampire prestige class, or perhaps a suite of them, not unlike the various flavors of Jedi in the SWRPG.


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## Tonguez (Jul 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Storminator _*
> 
> The D&D vampire is most decidedly not this creature.*




It would seem that the MM vampire is created as a 'monster' for heroes to fight not as a subtle creature of evil for them to fear. 

WW differed in that its Vampires were full chracters not just monsters ergo perhaps those wanting 'real'  Vampires need to create them as NPCs and add whatever power they want regardless of the Template description.



> * To maintain the spirit of the vampire in D&D form, it must be everything your players fear and hate, and it must be nearly impossible to destroy. *




Your description could just as easily apply to Demons, Dragons, Bogeymen and anything else which has been a traditional image of fear and evil in earths folklore.

For instance I don't use the Demons as described in the MM. My demons are spirits who deceive tempt and corrupt not magic flinging monsters of evil

So the answer isn't simply to make your Creature a mega-powerful super monster, its to be creative and create an atmosphere of dread and loathing through successful roleplaying and 'throwing out the rules' as you see fit.

You know I still think the silent 'Nosferatu' was the scariest of all the Vampire movies simply because of its use of shadows and tension to create the atmosfear


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## Corinth (Jul 15, 2002)

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *Wouldn't it make sense then to make Vampire a Prestige Class?  It could grant all the special abilities "necessary" to be a Vampire (or Vampire Spawn) at 1st level, and it could slowly add on more power with each level.  I don't see the benefit of the template. *



Using the class mechanic puts character development in the hands of the player--this includes the DM--instead of dictating its development by an outside party.  Not all vampires have the same powers, either in kind or at the same potency, and some do maintain pursuits outside that of their undead state.  What they do have in common is that they are undead, must feed upon the living and are vulnerable in daylight.  This is why I say that there is room for both template and class mechanics.  Upon further reflection, I say that there is also room for vampire-specific feats as well.


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## ColonelHardisson (Jul 15, 2002)

Storminator said:
			
		

> *The following is long.
> 
> The vampire is a very interesting collection of myths. I did a folklore project in college on vampires, and while my take on the situation is not universally agreed with, I did get both an A+ and a special mention, so it's not totally off the wall. Here goes:
> 
> ...




I can't, and wouldn't, dispute any of this, but there is an important point to remember. Just as with the Cthulhu mythos, the main protagonists for the stories involving these creatures are what would be, in D&D terms, low-level Commoners. Even a fair-to-middlingly powerful creature (in D&D terms) would seem invincible in such stories. That's why I don't think the vampire (or Cthulhu & Co.) of d20 have to be virtually unbeatable. The PCs are not that powerful at low levels, relatively speaking, so a vampire from the MM would seem pretty tough. At higher levels, the PCs are on the road to becoming heroes of legend (generally), the very type of protagonist you don't find in vampire or Cthulhu stories - they aren't helpless enough, and can give most bad guys that show up in such tales a good whippin.'

Now, a good vampiric nemesis for high level PCs would be one of their own (or the equivalent) that has become a vampire.

EDIT: By the way, try running a Commoner-only adventure with even a mid-level vampire as the antagonist. The vamp will seem awfully tough then.


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## kenjib (Jul 16, 2002)

long post warning...

Following is a repost from the old KenzerCo boards.
--------------------------------------------

I like Bram Stoker's Dracula - a solitary vampire living in a rotted castle in the middle of nowhere.  I really like how he lies about having servants.  It added a lot of depth to the character.  Dracula is revolting, evil, and at the same time utterly pathetic.  He is powerful and charismatic on the outside, yet snivelling and wretched on the inside - an interesting blend of tragedy and villany.  The fact that he was so alone, as a result of his condition, is what made him so pathetic.  He looks into the society that could never accept him with jealousy and lashes out with anger and violence, destroying that which he can not have.  I think he's very similar to Grendel in many ways.  I hadn't thought about it before but Dracula is in several ways a kind of a retelling of the old Beowulf story.  Giving him a community of other vampires (even just one or two) kind of breaks this motif.

On another note, I had before created a alternate vampire based more on folklore rather than fiction.  I think I'll copy that old post here just in case it might be of interest.  It's not high fantasy at all, but might perhaps be interesting.

---------------------------------------------------

Vampire (Folkloric)

"Since I could not hold such people from the resolution they had made, either with good words or with threats, I went to the village of Kisilova, taking along the Gradisk pope, and viewed the body of Peter Plogojowitz, just exhumed, finding, in accordance with thorough truthfulness, that first of all I did not detect the slightest odor that is otherwise characteristic of the dead, and the body, except for the nose, which was somewhat fallen away, was completely fresh.  The hair and beard -- even the nails, of which the old ones had fallen away -- had grown on him; the old skin, which was somewhat whitish, had peeled away, and a new fresh one had emerged under it.  The face, hands, and feet, and the whole body were so constituted, that they could not have been more complete in his lifetime.  Not without astonishment, I saw some fresh blood in his mouth, which, according to the common observation, he had sucked from the people killed by him."

- Statement from the Imperial Provisor, Gradisk District, as presented in Ranft's De masticationei, translation by Paul Barber

The vampire of folklore is quite a different creature from the vampire of fiction. Even such commonly accepted literary conventions as the vampire having pointed fangs and biting people on the neck have no basis in folklore. A version here is presented that is drawn more from the historical notions of the vampire as it has appeared in European folklore from various different regions. It bears mentioning that one should be very conscious of avoiding some of the standard stereotypes of vampires that exists elsewhere but not in this description, such as aversions to mirrors, running water, and garlic, all of which are not present. The vampire of folklore also has very little social interaction with the living, if any, so a vampire attaining a position of power and drawing followers is not possible. Vampires in folklore are solitary creatures.

When a person dies, certain conditions may cause the dead person to rise again as a vampire. The following conditions are contributing factors to a person subsequently rising as a vampire, but the true cause of such happening is not always understood.

1.  The person had an improper, incomplete, or unconsecrated burial or rites of death.  The details of this will vary by region.  For example, in some areas a person or animal jumping, flying, or reaching over a corpse will cause a corpse to be more likely to become a vampire.  In most regions, the lack of a burial at all can be a contributing factor.
2.  The person was the first to die of a plague that is now affecting more people
3.  The person was killed with important unfinished business.
4.  The person was bitten by a vampire and died from the blood drain.
5.  The person had committed suicides, was an alcoholic, died by drowning, and/or was unmarried
6.  The person was a murder victim - someone killed before their time.
7.  The person was born under bad omens.  This can take the form of numerological or astrological predestination, an certain type of birthmark, etc.
8.  The person was malevolent, evil, and/or an outcast in life
9.  The person was a sorcerer or wizard
10.  The person was cursed when he/she died

A vampire rises from the grave at night, terrorizing and preying upon the local populace. Vampires love to spread terror and harm people and property in any way possible. Vampires will often engage in such activities as overturning carts, starting fires, throwing stones through windows, banging on rooftops in the middle of the night, killing livestock and domesticated animals, and similar acts of mischief. The vampire may bestow curses on targets it particularly hates. Vampires particularly enjoy bestowing curses that bring ruination upon its target, causing fields to go fallow, milk cows to go dry, and the like.

Perhaps the most fearsome act of the vampire, however, is the nightly visitations it will make to people. A vampire will steal into a house under cover of night and find a target that is alone and sleeping. It will bite the victim, usually on the chest near the heart, and draw blood to feed it?s insatiable desires.

A vampire is also a bringer of plague, and may destroy an entire village just by seeding its highly contagious plague, which is able to spread quickly and devastate entire populations.

During the day a vampire is completely helpless, lying prone in its grave where it must wait until night time to continue its depredations. This is a favored time among enemies of the vampire to hunt down and destroy it. Indeed, during the night the vampire is seldom even seen, due to its ability to become invisible. A vampire will use this invisibility to full advantage. Vampires can prey on victims much more effectively the less they are seen and as such try to avoid direct confrontation at all costs, retreating in secret to its grave when threatened so that it may return the next night. It is very rare that a vampire would find reason to engage in melee combat.

The problem with this often lies in discovering exactly where the vampire is buried. This can often involve a fair amount of detective work. The following are sure signs that a given corpse is a vampire.

1.  The corpse lies with open mouth and, possibly, open eyes.
2.  The hair and fingernails of the corpse have continued to grow since death.
3.  The corpse is greatly swollen.
4.  The corpse does not seem to have decayed since burial.
5.  The corpse has ruddy cheeks or a reddish face.  In some cases the corpse can be so dark red as to almost appear blue or black.
6.  The corpse is flexible - there is no rigor mortis.
7.  The skin of the corpse has sloughed off, revealing a new, healthy skin beneath.
8.  The corpse lies in a different position from that which it was buried in.
9.  The earth around the grave looks disturbed.
10.  Sometimes the grave can have a blue glow around it.
11.  The corpse is twice as heavy as normal.
12.  Upon staking the body gushes blood and lets out a moan - also shakes convulsively

A vampire is indeed quite a grisly sight to behold, especially when such a terrible apparition is seen walking on two legs.

Destroying a vampire typically involves either a wooden stake through the heart or head, cremation of the corpse, or both. When a stake is driven into a vampire during the day while it rests helpless in its grave, a vampire will moan horribly, shake in convulsions, and gush forth in a large spout of blood, the blood itself being a highly dangerous substance due to it's ability to spread the plague.

CREATING A VAMPIRE

"Vampire" is a template that can be added to any humanoid or monstrous humanoid creature (referred to hereafter as the "base creature"). The creature?s type changes to "undead." It uses all of the base creature's statistics except as noted here.

Hit Dice:  Increase to d12.

Special Attacks:  A vampire retains all of the special attacks of the base creature and also gains those listed below.  Saves have a DC of 10 + ½ vampire's HD + vampire's Charisma modifier unless otherwise noted.

Disease (Ex): Plague -- bite (needed for the Blood Drain ability) or contact with vampire's blood, Fortitude save (DC 15), incubation period 24 hours; damage 1d4 temporary Constitution and 1 permanent Constitution (see Disease, page 74 in the Dungeon Master's Guide). The plague is highly contagious. Any creature that comes into contact with or spends more than 30 minutes with an infected creature must make a Fortitude save or become infected as well. After a successful save a creature can not be infected by the same source until 24 hours have past. After 24 hours, if any additional contact is made to the same source of infection, he/she must save again. Note that when a vampire is found in his grave and pierced, he will gush a spout of blood, with a 50% likelihood of blood coming into contact with the attacker and any others standing within 5' of the vampire. If precautions are taken this can be reduced to as low as 25%.

Bestow Curse (Su):  Once per day a vampire may curse someone as per the bestow curse spell.

Blood Drain (Ex): Once per night, a vampire may latch on to a victim and draw blood to feed its fiendish appetite. Unsuccessful and incomplete feedings do not count against the once per night limitation. A vampire most often bites in the chest area near the heart to draw blood but other locations have been known as well. A feeding takes a full ten rounds during which the vampire is considered flatfooted. The victim must either be fully prone and defenseless for the entire 10 rounds or the vampire must successfully grapple the target and pin them for 10 consecutive rounds. If a helpless target for some reason becomes mobile during the feeding, the vampire may make an attempt to grapple and pin the victim to continue the feeding (after which they must continue to maintain the pin). At the end of the full ten rounds, the victim suffers 1d4 points of temporary constitution loss with no saving throw. For each point of damage, the vampire will gain 5 temporary hit points which last from that time until the next sun down.

If the blood drain ability is used against a sleeping target, the attack will not wake the victim.  If the vampire completes the full ten round blood drain on a sleeping target, the target will continue sleeping normally. At this time the target must make a will save. If unsuccessful the target will have no recollection of the attack upon waking. If successful, upon waking the target will be uneasy and remember a feeling of being suffocated, but will otherwise remember nothing of events that occurred under attack. If a blood drain attack performed on a sleeping target ends prematurely or the target is woken for any reason during the blood drain attack, however, the target of the attack will immediately awaken and will fully remember everything that happened during the unfinished attack as if they had been awake the whole time.

Create Vampire (Ex): If a victim is killed by a vampire's blood drain (but not the plague), he/she will become a vampire unless a consecrate spell is cast on the dead body prior to burial. The new vampire will rise on the first night after it is buried or otherwise laid to rest. Note that the newly created vampire has no relationship with the vampire that created it. The new vampire will now act completely independently and in its own best interests and nature.

Special Qualities:  A vampire also retains all of the special qualities of the base creature and those listed below, and also gains the undead type (see the Monster Manual, page 6).

Invisibility (Su): A vampire may become invisible at will as a standard action as per the spell invisibility. A vampire can not, however, be invisible when in its grave or at any time during the daylight hours.

Animal Form (Su): A vampire may take the form of an animal. Most often a vampire will take the form of the dominant animal predator prevalent in the area, i.e. where wolves are common a vampire will take the form of a wolf. This ability is similar to a polymorph self spell cast by a 12th level sorcerer, except that the vampire can only assume the forms listed here. It can remain in that form until it assumes another or until the next sunrise.

Regeneration (Ex): Fire does normal damage to a vampire. Piercing with a wooden weapon (such as a wooden stake, but not a spear with a metal tip) also does normal damage to a vampire. A vampire, when subdued, will fall to the ground and give no indication to contradict the premise that it has been destroyed. It will, however, rise again fully regenerated at the next sun down. Vampires do not regenerate lost potions of their bodies or reattach severed limbs, so a vampire cut into many small pieces is disabled permanently. Beheading a vampire likewise effectively disables a vampire permanently, as it no longer has a body to move with.

Abilities:  As undead creatures, vampires have no constitution score.

Climate/Terrain:  Any land and underground
Organization:  Solitary
Challenge Rating:  As base creature +2
Treasure:  Standard (at the burial site)
Alignment:  Always chaotic evil
Advancement:  None


VAMPIRE WEAKNESSES

For all of their power, vampires have a number of weaknesses.

Grave Bound: Vampires return to the place of their burial at the end of each night. During the day a vampire is completely helpless, unable to act even while being attacked. If unable to reach their place of burial by the time day breaks, a vampire will immediately lie prone and become helpless, wherever it is. A vampire can not move his grave and as a result can not travel very far from its place of internment.

Returning Home: A vampire will try to return to the place that it lived when alive. When returning, a vampire must pass through the same portal that he last left through before becoming a vampire. A vampire must also pass through said portal in the same fashion, i.e. if a dead body was carried out of its home foot first through the back door and that dead body subsequently became a vampire after burial, the vampire would attempt to return home prone, foot first, and through the back door.

Obsessive-Compulsive Behavior: A vampire exhibits obsessive-compulsive behavior to untie all knots. A vampire will also exhibit this behavior toward counting numbers of objects. If a vampire is not under immediate threat, it will stop to untie knots or count a group of items before continuing with its planned course of action. Throwing a net at a vampire (nets are made with knots), for example, could be used to stall a pursuing vampire and buy time to flee. A net could similarly be placed over the threshold of a dwelling to slow the entry of a vampire. A net can not, however, be used to distract a vampire during combat, as the vampire is then under immediate threat and will ignore it - at least until the combat is over.

Water: Submerging a vampire completely under water for a full day and a night will destroy a vampire. If a vampire is completely under water at sun down, it will not rise that night unless it is removed from the water.

Coup de Grace: While a vampire's undead status renders it immune to a coup de grace, a coup de grace executed with a wooden piercing weapon (such as a wooden stake, but not a spear with a metal tip) will have full effect on a vampire.

Subdual Damage: While a vampire's undead status renders it immune to subdual damage, a vampire is not immune to the subdual damage caused by normal damage as a result of its regeneration ability.

Consecrate: A consecrate spell will do 1d6 points of damage per two caster level of the caster (maximum 5d6) to a vampire.

SAMPLE VAMPIRE

This example uses a 5th level human fighter as the base creature.

Vampire
Medium-Size Undead
Hit Dice:  5d12
Initiative:  +1 (+1 Dex)
Speed:  30 ft.
AC:  17 (+1 Dex, +4 masterwork chain shirt, +2 large shield)
Attacks:  Masterwork bastard sword +10; or masterwork shortbow +7 ranged
Damage:  Bastard sword 1d10+5; or shortbow 1d6
Face/Reach:  5ft. by 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks:  Disease, Bestow Curse, Vampire Hypnosis, Blood Drain, Create Vampire
Special Qualities:  Undead, invisibility, animal form, regeneration special (see text), vampire weaknesses
Saves:  Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +3
Abilities:  Str 16, Dex 13, Con --, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
Skills:  Climb +6, Listen +5, Ride +5
Feats:  Blind-Fight, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword), Dodge, Weapon Focus (bastard sword), Weapon Specialization (bastard sword)

Combat

Undead:  Immune to mind-influencing effects, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, and disease.  Not subject to critical hits, subdual damage, ability damage, energy drain, or death from massive damage.

The save against this vampire?s special attacks, unless otherwise noted in the text, is 11.

Magic Items Carried:  Potion of haste

Challenge Rating:  7


The source for this rendition of the vampire was:
Barber, Paul.  Vampires, Burial, and Death.  New Haven and London.  Yale University Press.  1988.


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## Hand of Vecna (Jul 16, 2002)

edited my previous post on how frequently a Vampire must feed


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## Bran Blackbyrd (Jul 16, 2002)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> *
> 
> A prestige class would not make sense. A template along the lines of the half fiend would make more sense. *




Why? I know it's easier, and usually a class of any kind represents training, and templates represent a genetic lineage or physical set of traits. However, a lot of people want a vampire that gains new abilities and powers, and increases in strength over time. Also, not every vampire would have the same abilities, which requires a selection of feats, or something similar to simulate. A template is a bit inadequate for these purposes.
You could randomize a vampire's abilities in a template by putting different abilities into charts and then roll for a result, but that still causes the vampire to gain all of the abilities it will have for the entirety of it's eternal unlife the very moment it becomes undead.

If you think that, outside of the vampire's original creature type, all vampires are created equal, then a template is ideal. 
If you would rather have a vampire more closely resembling one of Anne Rice's or perhaps WW's, then something else will need to be devised.
Of course, you could make the perfect vampire template and I'll admit I'm wrong most gratefully. 

Or in other words, "Crow never tasted so good."


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## LordAO (Jul 16, 2002)

Just let Vampires take special vampire abilities you create as feats.


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## hong (Jul 16, 2002)

Bran Blackbyrd said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Why? I know it's easier, and usually a class of any kind represents training, and templates represent a genetic lineage or physical set of traits. However, a lot of people want a vampire that gains new abilities and powers, and increases in strength over time. Also, not every vampire would have the same abilities, which requires a selection of feats, or something similar to simulate. A template is a bit inadequate for these purposes.
> *




Using a template doesn't have to mean identical vampires. First, you have the abilities of the base creature itself, and second, the template itself can offer a selection from a range of abilities. Eg the ghost.


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## Kaptain_Kantrip (Jul 16, 2002)

Kenzer's Kalamar module, Harvest of Darkness, features templates for a vampire cult that are not overloaded with superhuman powers (no changing to bats, wolves or mist, etc.). I thought them very well done and the cult itself an interesting take on d20 vampires. Check it out! 

BTW: Sean K Reynolds has a Buffy-esque vampire template on his site, also very good.


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## Bran Blackbyrd (Jul 16, 2002)

hong said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Using a template doesn't have to mean identical vampires. First, you have the abilities of the base creature itself, and second, the template itself can offer a selection from a range of abilities. Eg the ghost. *




I just said that.

What that doesn't address is the vampire gaining all of it's abilities in one shot.


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## Storminator (Jul 16, 2002)

Tonguez said:
			
		

> *
> 
> So the answer isn't simply to make your Creature a mega-powerful super monster, its to be creative and create an atmosphere of dread and loathing through successful roleplaying and 'throwing out the rules' as you see fit.
> *




I don't think you need a super monster, but a couple of special powers tailor to terrorize PCs wouldn't be bad. Frex, any hit with a magic weapon means the weapon must save or lose one level of plus, combined with DR 10/+1. Each plus drained gives he vamp 10 hp. Blessed weapons are immune.

2nd power, every spell targeted on the vamp means the vamp and the caster make opposed caster checks (with the vamp using his HD for level) and if the vamp wins the caster loses an additional spell of equal level. Each drained spell gives the vamp 3*level hp. Good spells are immune.

Just for kicks, give him improved evasion.

Now your vamp will scare the hell out PCs, because it destroys weapons and spells at an alarming rate, and there is no good method of attacking.

And neither of these powers are in conflict with any folklore, because no one casts spells at vamps, nor do they hit them with magic weapons.

PS


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## Desdichado (Jul 16, 2002)

I'd be real interested in seeing the Warhammer (latest, four varieties) vampires converted to 3e.  Anyone seen those ever?


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## ColonelHardisson (Jul 16, 2002)

Bran Blackbyrd said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I just said that.
> 
> What that doesn't address is the vampire gaining all of it's abilities in one shot. *




I cited the Half Fiend Template for just this reason; take a look at it, and you'll see what I'm getting at.


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## Bran Blackbyrd (Jul 16, 2002)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I cited the Half Fiend Template for just this reason; take a look at it, and you'll see what I'm getting at. *




I see what you're saying, I just think that the people that want a more in depth vampire want a level of complexity that we haven't seen yet in a template. I grant you, that doesn't mean it can't be done. So someone, please, do it.  I would, but I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I stink at doing crunchy rules stuff (I'm probably only mediocre at the non-crunchy stuff).

BTW, I never count the differences in to races that have a template as counting towards the variety of the template itself. A templated creature will almost (I said almost) invariably have the same array of abilties at it's disposal as another of a different race. Unless it's too stupid or weak to take advantage of said powers.

EDIT: Joshua Dyal, I haven't seen the Warhammer vampire. The closest I've come is the Mordheim version, and I don't have a set of the rules of my own. Besides, my warband was made up of Sisters of Sigmar.


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## Voadam (Jul 16, 2002)

A base template for a vampire makes sense to me for the changes made when you are transformed. If a vampire can develop powers based on effort then a prestige class would work to support that. For making them unique go the ghost route with power choices, for developing power over time go with a half-fiend style devleopment but make it linked to advancement from the introduction of the template. Also the ravenloft, templates of every vampire get more powerful with age even if they just sleep, works well for me as well.

so you could have differences among individual vamps, newly made ones, old ones and active ones.

The problem with a lot of the ravenloft critters is the logistical aspects of their ecology over time, weretigers consume 50 pounds of meat a day, vampires consume lots of blood, etc. It makes a serious difference if they must drain per day or per week.

I do like how the variant ravenloft vampire strains ditch energy drain, unfortunately they pick up stat drains from slam attacks instead of variant drains adding to their blood drinking.


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## mmadsen (Jul 16, 2002)

The objection to a Class or Prestige Class seems to be that it "feels" like training to be a better Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, etc. -- that calling it a "Class" implies that being a Vampire is a bit like being any mundane Class.

Remember though that all the monsters belong to quasi-Classes: Animal, Beast, Construct, Giant, Undead, etc.  A Human gaining levels of Vampire would be no different from a Giant gaining levels of Fighter or a Dragon advancing by Hit Dice.

Frankly, the whole rationale for Templates is pretty weak once you have 3E's elegant multiclassing.


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## ColonelHardisson (Jul 16, 2002)

Actually, I see Templates as being one of 3e's great innovations to D&D.

As has been pointed out by hong and myself, one could come up with a template for vampires that is more like the Ghost or Half-Fiend templates. The Ghost presents a selection of powers that can be mixed and matched, and the Half-Fiend grants powers more gradually, depending on the level of the creature to which the template has been applied. In effect, the Half-Fiend is sort of like a class itself. 

The advantage I see of Templates over Classes is that a Template can be removed a lot more easily. What happens when a Vampire that has been advanced in level (for want of a better term) is somehow brought back to life (something which can happen in D&D, as we all know)? What do those levels become? Are they simply dropped? If so, there are a lot of implications attached to that - for example, should a creature be penalized that heavily for advancing?


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## mmadsen (Jul 16, 2002)

> In effect, the Half-Fiend is sort of like a class itself.



Well, right, which leads me to ask why, if it adds Hit Points and powers, advances with levels, increases CR, and so on, isn't it a Class with Levels?


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## LoneWolf23 (Jul 16, 2002)

*Nothing wrong with the D&D Vampire.*

Personally, I see nothing that's really wrong with the Vampire Template as it is in the Monster Manual.  Heck, it's more of a traditional vampire then anything else out on the market.

First of all, forget everything Anne Rice or White Wolf ever taught you about Vampires...  *They're not meant to be Romantic Figures!*  The original Vampires of Medieval Folklore were created back in the days of the Black Plague, and they were supposed to look like Zombies at best, or Nosferatu at worst.  Hell, until Bram Stocker's Dracula, Vampires had a tendancy to avoid social interaction, and just prayed on sleeping victims at night.

And about the Con Drain being permanent...  guess what?  That's actually how the Myth used to go.


> ...The reported symptoms of vampiric predation were most often a type of wasting sickness, as the victim's life was drained by the lealous dead.  Weakness, paleness, shortness of breath, and other infirtmities were thought to be caused by the creature's attack.



_Source: Gurps Blood Types_
Sounds an awful lot like a permanent Con Drain, doesn't it?  The idea of the Vampire as a creature of Negative Energy and Death that can permanently drain a creature's Lifeforce is actually how it's supposed to go.  

Vampires aren't Parasites that can live off a stable population of "Cattle".  They're living carriers of the Plague, bringing Death to whole villages.  Green Knight's "Ridiculous" scenario about a Vampire slowly draining the inhabitants of a small village until the population starts wasting away, with some of it's dead arising as Vampire Spawns as well.  Left Unchecked, Vampirism was supposed to reach Epidemic proportions, much like the Plague did.

Hell, our modern day "Tragic and Romantic" Vampire got popular around the late 80s and early 90s, when *another* disease, this one transmitted by sharing blood, started gaining epic proportions.  You know AIDS, the sickness that was considered "Uncurable" a few years ago still?  The one that caused people to lose the ability to recover from other diseases?  Now that I think about it, sounds like another Permanent Con Drain.

Now, while I may do as suggested by others and "tweak" the Vampire Template to make it more like the Ghost or Half-Fiend in terms of ability selection, I don't see any reason why to get rid of the Energy and Con Drain abilities.  It's just how Vampires work.


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## mmadsen (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Nothing wrong with the D&D Vampire.*



> Now, while I may do as suggested by others and "tweak" the Vampire Template to make it more like the Ghost or Half-Fiend in terms of ability selection, I don't see any reason why to get rid of the Energy and Con Drain abilities.



Will you keep the level-draining backhanded slap though?


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## ColonelHardisson (Jul 16, 2002)

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> Well, right, which leads me to ask why, if it adds Hit Points and powers, advances with levels, increases CR, and so on, isn't it a Class with Levels? *




Mostly, it seems, so that a relatively powerful or relatively weak  critter can obtain a commensurate amount of fiendish power. That is, a half-fiend elephant will have a lot more infernal power than a half-fiend mouse, and the mouse wouldn't be able to eventually "outrank" the elephant fiendishly. A mouse (or just about any critter, really) can only be advanced so far (if at all) unless you add class levels. The Half Fiend template is a quasi-class, I guess, in which you have to advance in some other way to advance in it. I think such a template would be better than a whole new class, since it seems predicated more on what the templated creature is inherently, rather than having it sort of becoming a fiend by vocation. Sort of like how monsters advance in the Monster Manual without classes.


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## Tiberius (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Re: Nothing wrong with the D&D Vampire.*



			
				mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> Will you keep the level-draining backhanded slap though? *




Why not?  I don't see what's wrong with having the creature be so infused with negative energy that its mere touch (or in this case pimp slap) drains away life energy.  Besides, it's always drained energy.  Why change what isn't broken?

-Tiberius


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Nothing wrong with the D&D Vampire.*



			
				LoneWolf23 said:
			
		

> *
> 
> First of all, forget everything Anne Rice or White Wolf ever taught you about Vampires...  They're not meant to be Romantic Figures!  The original Vampires of Medieval Folklore were created back in the days of the Black Plague, and they were supposed to look like Zombies at best, or Nosferatu at worst.  *




Exactly.  GURPS Horror & Undead have great sections talking about how the vampire myth sprang out of the Black Plague and uncurable disease.   I always preferred the evil vampire to the immortal lover in a frilly shirt vampire.


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## Aaron L (Jul 16, 2002)

I myself like the blunt toothed nosferatu types that gnaw through your chest and eat your heart as much as the thin, pale, charming vamp.  

I want lots of vampire variants.  Look at how many types of vampires there are legends of in our world, (very low magic  ) Think of how many types there would be in a high magic world!


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## kenjib (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Nothing wrong with the D&D Vampire.*



			
				LoneWolf23 said:
			
		

> *First of all, forget everything Anne Rice or White Wolf ever taught you about Vampires...  They're not meant to be Romantic Figures!  The original Vampires of Medieval Folklore were created back in the days of the Black Plague, and they were supposed to look like Zombies at best, or Nosferatu at worst.  Hell, until Bram Stocker's Dracula, Vampires had a tendancy to avoid social interaction, and just prayed on sleeping victims at night.
> *




Yup -- that's the basic description of the version I just posted to this thread.  It was based on european folklore.  Vampires were bloated, rotten, corpses shuffling around fat and ruddy with blood with their skin sloughing off and a new one appearing underneath.


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## Bran Blackbyrd (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Nothing wrong with the D&D Vampire.*



			
				LoneWolf23 said:
			
		

> *Personally, I see nothing that's really wrong with the Vampire Template as it is in the Monster Manual.  Heck, it's more of a traditional vampire then anything else out on the market.
> 
> First of all, forget everything Anne Rice or White Wolf ever taught you about Vampires...  They're not meant to be Romantic Figures!*




The key word in all of that being personally. The fact is that different people want different things out of a vampire. Even some of the people not  interested in a "romantic" vampire want a more detailed, more varied vamp. Hell, I like Anne Rice's vampires, but I'm not talking about romance, I'm talking about power. Out of all the existing vampire myths, I like their set of weaknesses and powers the best. Real romantic, huh? None of that garlic crap here.
If somone wants to write a new set of vampire rules, that's cool. But why argue against it? That's right up there with the people that say WoTC shouldn't write book X because they personally won't use it. Forget the other thousands of customers. 

The only two arguments here are, I like it just fine, or I want more. Neither of those are wrong, but neither of them are right either. The people who are satisfied already have what they want, and it can't be taken away. So I say there's room for more. I just don't understand the people who have a problem with getting more.



> *
> Hell, our modern day "Tragic and Romantic" Vampire got popular around the late 80s and early 90s, when another disease, this one transmitted by sharing blood, started gaining epic proportions.  You know AIDS, the sickness that was considered "Uncurable" a few years ago still?  The one that caused people to lose the ability to recover from other diseases?  Now that I think about it, sounds like another Permanent Con Drain.
> *




You're a century or so behind the times. Ever heard of the Penny Dreadfuls? How about Varney the Vampire? They're a bit older than the eighties. In fact, they came out in the 1840's. The vampire revival has more to do with tuberculosis than it ever had with AIDS.
While  there are plenty of links betwen vampire mythology and the fearful superstitious people afflicted with disease, there are just as many links with sensuality, and the sensual aspect of blood (don't ask me, I'm not on that wavelength). 

FYI: I've never used a vampire in D&D, but then, that may be because D&D's vampires never seemed very "vampiric" to me.


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## Ridley's Cohort (Jul 17, 2002)

There certainly are many, many older vampire myths.  The modern romantic vampire myth is inspired by syphillis and other sexually transmitted diseases.  (Please note I said "inspired by", not  "about".)

This "Count" Dracula story dates to the nineteenth century, including the class consciousness and sexual pruderies of the middle-class.  

Previous vampire incarnations would be random people infected by an evil spirit -- probably because they led evil lives and/or were not properly buried -- so they were most often peasants.

But a lower class individual just was not considered socially up to the task of being a worthy antagonist of proper upper class heroes.  Allusions or hints of sexual contact would make such a story intolerable!


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## Kaptain_Kantrip (Jul 17, 2002)

Avalanche's Vlad the Impaler offers up the traditional, non-romanticized Romanian vampire as a template for d20.


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## Mr. Draco (Jul 17, 2002)

Hm... didn't have time to read through the whole thread, so if this is addressed somewhere before, i'm sorry.

Basically come early september i'm starting a campaign for my group (our previous DM is going to step down and play for a while).  I'll be running the campaign using a lot of house rules (througly playtested for balance), with the basic effect of trying not to put any limits on the creativity of the players.  For example, one player has asked me to come up with a way for him to play a vampire.  Seeing this thread, I was wondering if anybody here knows of, or has designed, a fair vampire 'class' that my player can use.


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## Kaptain_Kantrip (Jul 17, 2002)

I said this before and got zero replies. Kenzer's Kalamar module, Harvest of Darkness, has great low-powered vampire templates. Go check it out and save yourself the trouble (if not the $10.95).  These templates are all very doable as PCs, and invoke a scaling XP penalty to offset their advantages (starting at -10%). There is also a cool vampire cult you can use, which explains how to advance from one template to the next most powerful.


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## Green Knight (Jul 17, 2002)

Kaptain_Kantrip said:
			
		

> *I said this before and got zero replies. Kenzer's Kalamar module, Harvest of Darkness, has great low-powered vampire templates. Go check it out and save yourself the trouble (if not the $10.95).  These templates are all very doable as PCs, and invoke a scaling XP penalty to offset their advantages (starting at -10%). There is also a cool vampire cult you can use, which explains how to advance from one template to the next most powerful. *




Thanks for the heads up. I'll keep it in mind next time I'm at the game store. 



> First of all, forget everything Anne Rice or White Wolf ever taught you about Vampires... They're not meant to be Romantic Figures! The original Vampires of Medieval Folklore were created back in the days of the Black Plague, and they were supposed to look like Zombies at best, or Nosferatu at worst. Hell, until Bram Stocker's Dracula, Vampires had a tendancy to avoid social interaction, and just prayed on sleeping victims at night.




Don't recall complaining about anything other than mechanics. I certainly didn't say anything about the vampire needing to be more "romantic". Personally I prefer my vampires as horrific, vile monsters, but that's just me. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. 



> And about the Con Drain being permanent... guess what? That's actually how the Myth used to go.
> 
> 
> *--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ...




And that snippet proves your point how? I don't see where it says that the victims spend the rest of their lives sick after a vampire attack. It proves that people do get sick after an attack. Yes, obviously as their CON goes down. I wasn't disputing that people get sick. But unless you can find a story with a person who was attacked by a vampire, say,* 30 years previously* and they're still sick, then I'll gladly back off that point. Got no problem with being proven wrong. But til then, I'll continue to argue that CON drain shouldn't be permanent. 



> Vampires aren't Parasites that can live off a stable population of "Cattle". They're living carriers of the Plague, bringing Death to whole villages. Green Knight's "Ridiculous" scenario about a Vampire slowly draining the inhabitants of a small village until the population starts wasting away, with some of it's dead arising as Vampire Spawns as well. Left Unchecked, Vampirism was supposed to reach Epidemic proportions, much like the Plague did.




Epidemic proportions? More like "apocalyptic" proportions! What's "ridiculous" is just how easily a new vampire can be created. In the DMG it says that your average thorp has between 20-80 people. Let's say a vampire attacks one with 80 people while everyone's asleep and kills them all. This vampire just created_ 80 Vampire Spawn_. In one night. All of which are under his total control. This vampire, with his newly created horde of Vampire Spawn, can go on to attack nearby villages and draining everyone there dry, too, and create more Spawn. 

So where are the legends of marauding vampire armies across europe? Vampire legions marching on Constantinople? Vampire nations? After all, if vampires can so easily create hordes of Vampire Spawn, then why haven't there been stories of conquering vampires ruling over the human populace like cattle, subjugating the whole earth? Considering how easily vampires reproduce, I'd say their threat goes way BEYOND "epidemic". 



> Now, while I may do as suggested by others and "tweak" the Vampire Template to make it more like the Ghost or Half-Fiend in terms of ability selection, I don't see any reason why to get rid of the Energy and Con Drain abilities. It's just how Vampires work.




Well, IMO, how they work is stupid and ill-conceived. But that's just my opinion. Personally, I'd prefer their blood drain to be worked in one of 3 ways. 

A) Vampire bite does temporary CON damage. Those who survive are sick for a while, but eventually recover. 

B) Vampire bite does level drain damage. You can recover if you survive, but it takes longer. The other downside is you can kill a 1st level person to quickly, while a higher level person takes longer to die. 

C) Vampire bite does BOTH a level drain and temporary CON damage. 

Whatever the case, if they had to have level drain, it would've made much more sense as a result of a bite. Not as a result from a bitchslap.


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## LoneWolf23 (Jul 17, 2002)

> And that snippet proves your point how? I don't see where it says that the victims spend the rest of their lives sick after a vampire attack. It proves that people do get sick after an attack. Yes, obviously as their CON goes down. I wasn't disputing that people get sick. But unless you can find a story with a person who was attacked by a vampire, say, 30 years previously and they're still sick, then I'll gladly back off that point. Got no problem with being proven wrong. But til then, I'll continue to argue that CON drain shouldn't be permanent.




Go back to the Disease metaphor.  The Vampire's Bite isn't supposed to be a Blood Transfusion, it's supposed to be a dangerous infection.  And Yes, some diseases can *permanently* cripple a man.  Remember Franklin D. Roosevelt?  Polio put him in his wheelchair.  And people could take years to recover from Tuberculosis, I believe.

Besides, it's not like a victim can't *ever* recover from the Con drain...  It'll be a slow path to recovery, but he can raise his Con points again with experience, or make a pilgrimage to a divine spellcaster who knows "Restoration".



> Epidemic proportions? More like "apocalyptic" proportions! What's "ridiculous" is just how easily a new vampire can be created. In the DMG it says that your average thorp has between 20-80 people. Let's say a vampire attacks one with 80 people while everyone's asleep and kills them all. This vampire just created 80 Vampire Spawn. In one night. All of which are under his total control. This vampire, with his newly created horde of Vampire Spawn, can go on to attack nearby villages and draining everyone there dry, too, and create more Spawn.
> 
> So where are the legends of marauding vampire armies across europe? Vampire legions marching on Constantinople? Vampire nations? After all, if vampires can so easily create hordes of Vampire Spawn, then why haven't there been stories of conquering vampires ruling over the human populace like cattle, subjugating the whole earth? Considering how easily vampires reproduce, I'd say their threat goes way BEYOND "epidemic".




Once again, I point you back to the "Vampire as Plague" metaphor.  Back when the legend of the Vampire originated, people really DID think the world was coming to an end, what with so many folks contracting the Bubonic Plague, Dying, and leaving behind a putrefying body that often infected others before it was carried off.  So a single Vampire coming into a village and slowly decimating it's population over a matter of days doesn't seem too far fetched, in that light.  Just a way of exagerating a natural occurance, as is typical of many legends.

As for the legends of Vampire Kingdoms: Again, try to remember the Origins of the Medieval Vampire Myth...  vampires, back in those days, didn't really do much beyond crawling out of their tombs at night to attack poor villagers, before going back to their tombs to sleep the day away, being quite susceptible to getting dug up, revealed for the vampires they were, and stuck with a wooden stake through the Heart while they're unable to resist.

Besides, the Vampire has many vulnerabilities... they won't approach an area with garlic in it and recoil from holy symbols, can't cross running water, can't enter a home without getting invited in first, and Clerics can turn them.  It's not like they're unstoppable Monsters against smart villagers.

When people start dying of a mysterious wasting disease that sound like all the signs of a vampire attack, don't you think the first thing the peasents will do is hang up the garlic and crosses at the windows and start digging up the cemetary?


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## Mangrum (Jul 17, 2002)

Green Knight said:
			
		

> *
> After all, if vampires can so easily create hordes of Vampire Spawn, then why haven't there been stories of conquering vampires ruling over the human populace like cattle, subjugating the whole earth? *




Because they don't exist in a vacuum. If one lives in a world rife with vampires, one also lives in a world with people who know how to destroy vampires. In an RPG, that generally means "adventurers."

BTW, I have to say I'm honestly depressed that Ravenloft's barely received a mention in this discussion, and I don't think I say that _totally_ selfishly.

Vampires that gain power with age: Check. (Ravenloft Third Edition)

Variant powers and salient abilities for all vampires: Check. (Ravenloft Third Edition)

Explanation for how vampires can feed without depopulating their hunting grounds: Check. (Secrets of the Dread Realms)

Variant vampire subtypes: Check. (Denizens of Darkness)

(Standard MM vampires too: Check.)

Romantic, "Byronic" vampire variant: Check. (Denizens of Darkness)

Vile, plague-spreading, "folkloric" vampire variant: Check. (Denizens of Darkness)

Method for vampire spawn to become true vampires: Check. (Denizens of Darkness, plus a sidenote in Ravenloft Third Edition)

As for stories about vampires "subjugating the whole earth," that would be the classic "I Am Legend" by Richard Matheson.


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## Bran Blackbyrd (Jul 17, 2002)

Mangrum said:
			
		

> *
> 
> BTW, I have to say I'm honestly depressed that Ravenloft's barely received a mention in this discussion, and I don't think I say that totally selfishly.
> 
> ...




Hmm. Interesting, but I don't have Ravenloft 3E, so I can't really bring it up. 

Actually, I don't even have Ravenloft 2E. I have Forbidden Lore because I saw it at a toy store marked down to about two dollars. I got it because it came with a deck of cards, some dice, and the cover has always been one of my favorite D&D illustrations. Not bad for two bucks.


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## Voadam (Jul 18, 2002)

Mangrum said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Because they don't exist in a vacuum. If one lives in a world rife with vampires, one also lives in a world with people who know how to destroy vampires. In an RPG, that generally means "adventurers."
> 
> ...




A couple of responses here.

If undead are powerful and easy to spawn, then the likely result is they will do so. The result being an unstoppable plague of undead until they decimate their feedstock and then start to stave.

Particularly in Ravenloft where the heroes are more likely to be Cthulhu investigators than Forgotten realms Uber combat fiends, a campaign world can't depend upon powerful heroes to check an entire village turned into spawn. As an ecological mechanism it fails once the mass spawning starts. Shadows are worse as they have less restrictions and weaknesses than vampires.

Van Richten hunts vamps down one at a time after careful invsetigation and loses companions all the time in doing so, there is no Buffy to stake a half dozen a night without breaking a sweat. 

The Ravenloft vampires add great increasing power over time, as has been mentioned, but there is still the slap for energy drain or stat drain for most of them (standard vamps, elven, dwarven, gnome, halfling)

Secrets only had examples of how two vamps kept themselves in check, and they must make affirmative steps to keep themselves from spawning hordes, it is a bit much for every vamp to be assumed to do so, particularly those who are not lords.

I am legend only shows that if vamps get out then they take over the world. That is how that story goes.


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## Mangrum (Jul 18, 2002)

Voadam said:
			
		

> *Particularly in Ravenloft where the heroes are more likely to be Cthulhu investigators than Forgotten realms Uber combat fiends, *




That's not actually the case. Ravenloft and Call of Cthulhu are very different styles of game.



			
				Voadam said:
			
		

> *a campaign world can't depend upon powerful heroes to check an entire village turned into spawn. As an ecological mechanism it fails once the mass spawning starts. Shadows are worse as they have less restrictions and weaknesses than vampires.*




Keep in mind that having a shadow set out to wipe out the world is out of character for it; in fact, most of these "undead will wipe out the world" scenarios depend on ignoring the respective creatures' motivations, simply sending them out on a rampage for no particular reason. It makes even less sense for vampires to turn entire villages into spawn; vampires are predators, and as such don't prosper by wiping out their prey.



			
				Voadam said:
			
		

> *Van Richten hunts vamps down one at a time after careful invsetigation and loses companions all the time in doing so, there is no Buffy to stake a half dozen a night without breaking a sweat. *




Well, _yes_, there is. Van Richten is Van Richten -- not everyone plays by his rules. George Weathermay is a RL hero who enjoys wading in and wiping out creatures in close combat. Also, if you have a paladin in your Ravenloft campaign, there's a Buffy right there.



			
				Voadam said:
			
		

> *Secrets only had examples of how two vamps kept themselves in check, and they must make affirmative steps to keep themselves from spawning hordes, it is a bit much for every vamp to be assumed to do so, particularly those who are not lords.*




SotDR provided a general rule ("shallow feeding") and demonstrated how one vampire in particular used it.

And it's a bit much for an intelligent, long-term predator to take simple measures to ensure that A) it preserves its food source, and B) its presence can remain unnoticed?


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## mmadsen (Jul 19, 2002)

> Seeing this thread, I was wondering if anybody here knows of, or has designed, a fair vampire 'class' that my player can use.



I haven't yet, but I'm thinking about it.  Naturally, I'd start with the Undead "class" from the Monster Manual:

Hit Die: d12
Attack Bonus: as Wizard (1/2 level)
Good Save: Will
Skill Points: 2/level

For its skill list, I'd choose the skills Vampires currently get a bonus at: Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot.  (Actually, given that list, I doubt I'd restrict Vampires to 2 skill points per level.)

For Bonus Feats, I'd start with the list of Feats Vampires currently get for free: Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, and Lightning Reflexes.  (Actually, those aren't too terribly vampiric.)  To that list, I'd add all the Vampire Spawn's and true Vampire's powers: Charm (Dominate), Energy Drain (Improved Energy Drain), Blood Drain (Improved Blood Drain), Gaseous Form, Spider Climb, Fast Healing (Improved Fast Healing), Children of the Night, Create Spawn, Damage Reduction, Turn Resistance, Resistance, Alternate Form.

I'm not sure how I'd fit in the Ability bonuses.


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## Always_a_DM (Jul 19, 2002)

Bran Blackbyrd said:
			
		

> *I'm partial to the way Anne Rice's vampires work, but translating them to 3E in a way that would do them justice AND work within the confines of the rules would be a chunk of work.
> You'd need rules for what abilities are passed to new vampires by their creators, and how their power levels grow over time, how bleeding a lot or making fledglings saps or dilutes the strength of their blood, for the purposes of passing on those powers... Still it would be neat.
> *




what if you made Vampirism into a prestige class with being Undead as a prerequisite ?


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## Always_a_DM (Jul 19, 2002)

*Boy do I feel sheepish.*

I've just seen the previous post. That'll teach me to refresh my browser more often.


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## LostSoul (Jul 19, 2002)

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *I haven't yet, but I'm thinking about it.  Naturally, I'd start with the Undead "class" from the Monster Manual:*




That could really come in handy for my game.  I've got a "half-vampire" class (the Avenger, from Ravenloft 2e) and I'm thinking about letting them swap levels from that class into some kind of Evil Vampire Prestige Class.  (If they choose to go down that path.)  Hmmm...


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## mmadsen (Jul 19, 2002)

Let's look at what a Vampire Spawn can do, and we can use that as the basis for a 4th-level Vampire:

Hit Dice: 4d12
BAB: +2 (as Wizard)
+3 Natural Armor
Charm
Energy Drain
Blood Drain
Undead
+2 Turn Resistance
DR 10/silver
Cold & Electricity Resistance 10
Gaseous Form
Spider Climb
Fast Healing 2
Alertness
Improved Initiative
Lightning Reflexes
Skill Focus
Skills: 10 skills at +8 or higher

Actually, now that I've typed that out, a Vampire Spawn is just CR 4?  Yeesh!


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## Voadam (Jul 19, 2002)

Mangrum said:
			
		

> *
> 
> That's not actually the case. Ravenloft and Call of Cthulhu are very different styles of game.
> 
> ...




Ravenloft and CoC are two different styles of game, but I run my ravenloft campaign as a sort of D&D and Cthulhu type mix, lots of investigating, books of lore, dark powers, but the characters are much stronger than in CoC and can take down many creatures and I have more of a combat focus than I think I would if it were straight CoC.

I was thinking that for most incorporeal undead like ghosts, and spectres they are limited in the range they haunt so they won't spread as quickly, but a shadow is malicious, hates life and wants to strike out with its attacks against living prey. Since they don't have the flavor text of being restricted to an area they seem like they could run amok easily.

The paladin who was in my campaign was tough and dedicated in the fight against undead, but he was not up to taking out a pack of vampires on his own.

I've been running my ravenloft game since the first boxed set came out and I've always run it as the good guys are not as powerful as the bad in terms of numbers and levels. The fact that there are so many different baddies going for control or territory is what keeps various baddies in check, along with natural restrictions that I impose. Also every evil thing should have some weaknesses in addition to their powers which can be exploited.

I will have to reread the Secrets book again, it has been a number of months since I have read it. (My campaign's been in Sri Raji for the last year or so.


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## mmadsen (Jul 20, 2002)

> Let's look at what a Vampire Spawn can do, and we can use that as the basis for a 4th-level Vampire:...



Frankly, the Vampire Spawn looks damn tough for a 4th-level monster, and with a d12 Hit Die, lots of skills, and all sorts of powers, it's hard to come up with a reasonable 1st-level Vampire Spawn either.  Let's take a quick stab at a class:

Hit Die: d12
Attack Bonus: as Wizard (1/2 level)
Good Save: Will
Skill Points: 8/level
Skill List: Bluff, Craft, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot.

So far, it looks like a Rogue with twice the normal hit points, a weaker attack bonus, and a limited skill list (but lots of skill points).

If we look at the powers of a 4th-level Vampire Spawn, we should be able to find a subset for a 1st- through 3rd-level Vampire Spawn.

*1st Level*
Undead
Blood Drain
Energy Drain
Fast Healing 1
DR 5/silver
Cold & Electricity Resistance 5

*2nd Level*
Spider Climb
+1 Natural Armor
Fast Healing 2
DR 10/silver
Cold & Electricity Resistance 10

*3rd Level*
Charm
+2 Natural Armor
Fast Healing 2

*4th Level*
Gaseous Form
+3 Natural Armor
+2 Turn Resistance

That still looks pretty powerful, even without the Ability bonuses and the Feats (Alertness, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Skill Focus).


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## mmadsen (Jul 20, 2002)

Some of the Vampire's abilities take on a different tone in the hands of a player character.  For instance, the Energy Drain and Blood Drain -- two powers _feared_ by PCs on the receiving end -- aren't that exciting when you're the Vampire.  Draining a level isn't much better than doing one Hit Die's damage, and the monsters you kill certainly aren't concerned that their level-loss might become permanent.

On the other hand, Spider Climb and Gaseous Form at will -- two seemingly minor powers -- can easily ruin adventures, especially low-level adventures.  And DR?  When's the last time you encountered a monster with silver weapons?


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## mmadsen (Jul 22, 2002)

> I've got a "half-vampire" class (the Avenger, from Ravenloft 2e) and I'm thinking about letting them swap levels from that class into some kind of Evil Vampire Prestige Class.



What does your half-vampire Avenger class look like?


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## The Serge (Jul 22, 2002)

I'm pleased to inform you folks that this thread has been far more interesting than recent Vampire threads I've seen at the WotC site (which were closed due to a lot of flaming).

Anyway, I think the problem with Vampires and virtually every monster or class in the D&D game is bridging the gap of folklore and popular contemporary concepts.

A few people here clearly like the Anne Rice influenced Vampire which has greatly impacted popular concepts of this creature.  (Incidently, this "romantic" vampire showed up before Stoker's _Dracula_ in that there were "noble" vampires in other, very long stories).  We see this Vampire in the Masquerade and in many novels of varying quality.  

Then, we have those of you who want the more "traditional" Vampire, a la Dracula, clearly a monster who is both reviled and seductive (again, the seductive aspect of this kind of Vampire is very flexible.  Dracula brought out a sensuality that is considered repellent in the novel, and most movie and stage adaptations of _Dracula_ added quasi-romantic elements not at all related to the novel itself).  

And, then, there are those who are talking about the folklore vampire, the plague that rots in a grave, kills everything in sight, doesn't have as many fancy powers, etc.

I think the problem here is, if D&D were to cling to a folklorish Vampire, they would cut out a large number of people unfamiliar with such a creature.  In addition, I think this kind of "vampire" does exist, only under different names like Ghast, Ghoul, and Wight.  Furthermore, attempting to create a completely folklore-ridden vampire would result in most of the monster in the MM and other creature collections being changed.  Say goodbye to mega-powerful dragons, cutesy Elves, noble Dwarves, and so on.

As for those wanting the angst-ridden, super sexy, androgenous, "bisexual" Vampire, well, you also end up conflicting with the mainstream because most people, although they see Vampires as beautiful and all that, still see them as monsters that only come out at night and kill people (incidently, the vampire in Stoker's _Dracula_ could move about during the day, although he was stuck in the last form he was in when the dawn arrived).  The vampire you're asking for really is more of a role-playing issue.  (I will say that I happen to like this vampire-type just fine, although I think it has been overused and overblown since the mid-90s).

The vampire template in the MM is fine.  It captures the traditional powers we associate with vampires, while attempting to pay homage to both tradition (the Constitution drain is something seen in some "oriental" vampires and some "European" vampires) and the new-age, sexy vampire (that Dominate person is a real charmer).  Sure, on paper, these vampires appear very powerful and seem to just be monsters.  But, that's the point with this version of D&D's creature collections; the MM provides the stats and the building _suggestions_ (which I use because they allow for balance, a very important consideration for 3ed).  It does not tell you how to make each vampire distinct from others of its ilk.  If you want a raving, slathering monster, it's up to the DM to craft and role-play one.  If you want a seductive, angst-ridden charmer, again, the DM can create one.  Also consider that Ravenloft does offer more power and varients for the vampire template that allows DMs to make even more refined undead.  While it would have been nice to see these rules in the MM, I suspect they were excluded due to space constraints and 3ed tendancy to cling to traditional, 1ed ideas.

Anyway, I once again commend everyone here for this great thread.

Later!


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## Henry (Jul 22, 2002)

I see the D&D Vampire fine as-is, but there is certainly room for variation. I think the most salient point brought up in this whole discussion is that D&D Vampires are supposed to be scary to only one group - the players. If they don't scare the players, they aren't doing their job.

How do you scare a player? Storminator has it right on here: You either give them abilities that take away those things the player holds dear to their characters, or you use mood, ambiance, tone, etc. to generate the feeling that these beasties can REALLY put an end to your characters.

Not all DM's are masters of tone and mood. However, the PC-destroying powers of level-draining and mental dominance are perfect for subtly scaring the _bejeezus_ out of the people behind those character sheets.

Back in the olden days of 2E, when level draining was almost permanent, I used level-draining undead sparingly. When I did, they were treated with more viciousness on the part of the players than against any other creature I set them against.

Once, I ran a halloween-themed game against them, involving HUNDREDS of wights, wraiths, and spectres. I never saw a finer tribute to navy SEALS than I did out of the players at that session. They were so on the edge of their seats, you would have sworn it was THEM in Vecna's Spidered Throne, rather than their PC's. It wasn't Vecna that scared them - it was his minions they had to bypass to get to him.


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## Voadam (Jul 22, 2002)

Voadam said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I will have to reread the Secrets book again, it has been a number of months since I have read it. (My campaign's been in Sri Raji for the last year or so. *




So I cracked the Secrets book open this weekend and the shallow feeding sidebar allows vamps to inflict temporary con damage instead of permanent drain in their blood draining attacks, they just require twice as much temporary damage as permanent to sustain them each day. It says about 8 points a day for the average vamp. So with a stable of at least 8 prisoners or whatever, a vamp can spread out the feeding so the victims recover by the time he needs to feed on them again.

This sidebar rule is a very good option allowing vamps to feed and not always decimate a population. It just should have been in the core setting book description of how vamps in Ravneloft differ from the MM. Or even in the MM itself.


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## mmadsen (Jul 22, 2002)

> Anyway, I think the problem with Vampires and virtually every monster or class in the D&D game is bridging the gap of folklore and popular contemporary concepts.



That may be a problem with the Vampire (and many other monsters), but the chief problem seems to be that the D&D Vampire doesn't represent the Vampire of folklore, the Vampire of Stoker's _Dracula_, or the Vampire of Anne Rice's novels -- or even an amalgam of those varied Vampires.

And really, one single power seems to cause most of the complaints: the level-draining "slam".


> In addition, I think this kind of "vampire" does exist, only under different names like Ghast, Ghoul, and Wight.



Good point.

Speaking of traditional monsters and Ghouls, the _Ghul_ of Arabic tradition either sucked blood or ate corpses, but it was a shapeshifter -- and like many shapeshifters in folklore, it had a flaw: it always had the hooves of an ass.  

Does anyone know where the paralysis of the D&D Ghoul came from?


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## mmadsen (Jul 22, 2002)

> Once, I ran a halloween-themed game against them, involving HUNDREDS of wights, wraiths, and spectres. I never saw a finer tribute to navy SEALS than I did out of the players at that session. They were so on the edge of their seats, you would have sworn it was THEM in Vecna's Spidered Throne, rather than their PC's. It wasn't Vecna that scared them - it was his minions they had to bypass to get to him.



Sounds excellent.  This raises an interesting question though.  If attacks that scare players make the game more fun, why do we introduce rampant healing and escalating hit points -- two aspects of the game that take away that fear?


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## coyote6 (Jul 22, 2002)

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *This raises an interesting question though.  If attacks that scare players make the game more fun, why do we introduce rampant healing and escalating hit points -- two aspects of the game that take away that fear? *




Many reasons: D&D is not a horror game; many (most, IME) players don't like being afraid _all the time_; playing tough characters (ergo, lots of hit points) is fun; and not being stuck with permanent crippling injuries or long recovery times is also fun-increasing.


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## kenjib (Jul 22, 2002)

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> Sounds excellent.  This raises an interesting question though.  If attacks that scare players make the game more fun, why do we introduce rampant healing and escalating hit points -- two aspects of the game that take away that fear? *




I think it's a balancing point for randomness.  You want enough randomness to scare the players but not so much that they die too often.  Really it helps you have your cake and eat it too.  You want the illusion of danger more than danger itself, no (of course occasional reinforcement of true danger is necessary)?  I think this is the design principle of D&D and also helps to explain why it is so ridiculously easy to bring back people from the dead.

As regards the paralysis of the ghoul -- my money would be on some short story or novel that Mr. Gygax read somewhere.


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## The Serge (Jul 22, 2002)

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> That may be a problem with the Vampire (and many other monsters), but the chief problem seems to be that the D&D Vampire doesn't represent the Vampire of folklore, the Vampire of Stoker's Dracula, or the Vampire of Anne Rice's novels -- or even an amalgam of those varied Vampires.*




I somewhat disagree.  I think the D&D vampire does represent all of these elements, only it requires innovative use of the given rules to capture them the way most fans of one or the other varient see them.  

I could easily run a Ricesque Vampire.  The energy drain would be like effect that most people undergo when Lestat or Louis or any other vampire drinks; victims tend to freeze up almost instantly when "attacked."  I could also use the _Dominate_ power to "read minds" by keeping careful contact with thralls.  

I capture the "classic," "traditional" vampire through all of the shapechanging powers, the aversion to things like garlic and religious symbols.  

And, for the folklore component, I could use either a simple Spawn, or I can use a full-blown vampire who isn't interested in mingling with its prey and couldn't care less that it will ruin its food supply by over hunting.



			
				mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> And really, one single power seems to cause most of the complaints: the level-draining "slam".*




Well, while I agree that a permanent drain is a little silly, someone already pointed out that some of the folklorish vampires caused severe weakness to those they assaulted _before_ they drank their blood.  And a "slam" is a punch, slap, kick, or whatever.  I think "slam" sounded more threatening and possibly more inclusive than any of the aforementioned examples to the designers.



			
				mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> Good point.*




Thanks!



			
				mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> Speaking of traditional monsters and Ghouls, the Ghul of Arabic tradition either sucked blood or ate corpses, but it was a shapeshifter -- and like many shapeshifters in folklore, it had a flaw: it always had the hooves of an ass.
> 
> Does anyone know where the paralysis of the D&D Ghoul came from? *




I think it's related to the Vampire's Con drain, only it just "stuns" the victim, making them easier to attack.  The victim is overwhelmed by the stench, preternatural cold, and evil o the Ghoul that seeks to rip the victim to shreds.  I'd be so terrified that I'd probably be stunned.


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## radferth (Jul 22, 2002)

*Whence ghouls*

I am pretty sure that D&D ghouls are taken from _The Hour of the Dragon_ Conan story by R. E. Howard.  I am not sure if that is the correct story, as they all tend to run together in my mind.  I think the basis for the carnivorous ape (now dire ape) came from the same story.  The physical description of ghouls my owe a bit to Lovecraft, but Lovecraft's ghouls were quite different from D&D ghouls or ghouls of Arabian folklore.


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## mmadsen (Jul 23, 2002)

*Re: Whence ghouls*



> I am pretty sure that D&D ghouls are taken from _The Hour of the Dragon_ Conan story by R. E. Howard.



I recently read all the original Robert E. Howard Conan stories, and I remember the gray ghouls in the forest, but I don't remember any paralysis powers.


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## mmadsen (Jul 23, 2002)

> I think the D&D vampire does represent all of these elements, only it requires innovative use of the given rules to capture them the way most fans of one or the other varient see them.



But none of those Vampires (folklore, Stoker, Rice) have anything resembling a level-draining slam.  


> I could easily run a Ricesque Vampire.  The energy drain would be like effect that most people undergo when Lestat or Louis or any other vampire drinks; victims tend to freeze up almost instantly when "attacked."



The energy drain doesn't require drinking, and it doesn't "freeze" its victims.


> Well, while I agree that a permanent drain is a little silly, someone already pointed out that some of the folklorish vampires caused severe weakness to those they assaulted _before_ they drank their blood.



Isn't that the Dominate power?


> And a "slam" is a punch, slap, kick, or whatever.  I think "slam" sounded more threatening and possibly more inclusive than any of the aforementioned examples to the designers.



Right...so we've got kung-fu Vampires.  That might make for a fun change of pace, but I don't think punching, slapping, or kicking fits the archetype.


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## hong (Jul 23, 2002)

coyote6 said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Many reasons: D&D is not a horror game; many (most, IME) players don't like being afraid all the time; playing tough characters (ergo, lots of hit points) is fun; and not being stuck with permanent crippling injuries or long recovery times is also fun-increasing. *




Nah, mmadsen is just trolling again re Dude point systems, as is his wont. I guess Dudeness is just something that's orthogonal to his worldview.


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## mmadsen (Jul 23, 2002)

*Alternatives to Level-Draining Slam*

The chief complaint against the D&D Vampire seems to be the level-draining slam.  The classic Vampire doesn't seem to "slam" -- be it punch, kick, or backhanded slap -- and it doesn't seem to drain levels (whatever that means to non-meta-gamers) with a touch.

The chief strength of the D&D Vampire seems to be that it legitimately scares the players.  They lose hit points all the time, but they magically heal them without a second thought.  Level drain, on the other hand, scares them.  Also, Dominate takes the player's control away, and that's scary.

So, how can we take what we like about the Vampire and discard what we don't like?  What are our alternatives to the level-draining slam?

The most obvious fix is to make the level-draining come from the Vampire's bite.  Even if level-draining is a heavy-handed mechanic, tying it to the bite fits the Vampire image nicely.

If we don't like level-draining, we have other options.  Really, anything that isn't easy to heal works, especially if it has some immediate consequences.  I've never like the level-drain idea, but I do like Ability Drain, and -2 to all Abilities is roughly the same as a Negative Level, but simpler, an anyone can take four or five such Negative Levels before dying.  For some attacks (e.g. Nazgul blade), treating this drain as a disease fits, and it certainly scares the players; the character might die even after surviving the initial attack.

Another option is to give the Vampire attacks that simply don't heal.  Maybe he uses claws instead of a slam, or maybe his bite does simple hit-point damage, but it doesn't heal.

Any other suggestions?


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## Codragon (Jul 23, 2002)

*Re: Alternatives to Level-Draining Slam*



			
				mmadsen said:
			
		

> *The chief complaint against the D&D Vampire seems to be the level-draining slam.  The classic Vampire doesn't seem to "slam" -- be it punch, kick, or backhanded slap -- and it doesn't seem to drain levels (whatever that means to non-meta-gamers) with a touch.
> 
> [SNIP]
> 
> Any other suggestions? *




I like the ideas presented, specifically the negation of the slam and level drain.  I think that vampires should have no special unarmed attack - except perhaps improved grapple.  Coupled with high strength, this enables the vampire to bite his opponent easier. 

I'm opposed to level-draining in D&D, mainly because its too much of a hassle.  To have truly accurate level draining, PCs must track how much HP they gained at each level, what feats, what skill points, etc.  I also have trouble rationalizing energy drain, but that's another topic.

The vampire's bite should drain Constitution.  I think permanent CON drain is a simple, yet nasty alternative to energy drain.  It's permanent HP loss that scales with your level (-1 HP/level per 2 CON drained).  It reduces your chances of resisting disease (lower FORT save).  It's easy to rationalize: CON loss = blood loss.


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## mmadsen (Jul 23, 2002)

To combine this with another thread, I wonder what a SHARK Vampire looks like...


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## mmadsen (Jul 24, 2002)

> Ravenloft and CoC are two different styles of game, but I run my ravenloft campaign as a sort of D&D and Cthulhu type mix, lots of investigating, books of lore, dark powers, but the characters are much stronger than in CoC and can take down many creatures and I have more of a combat focus than I think I would if it were straight CoC.



Can I just say, Voadam, that your campaign sounds very cool.


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## Xarlen (Jul 24, 2002)

Okay, first of all.

About the vampire creating hundreds of Spawn and going off to create lots of more Spawn and so on and so on...

I ask you this: How is this vampire going to Feed all of these spawn? People have been posing the question about a simple Vampire having to drain all this con from people to survive, how the heck does that same vampire feed 80 spawn? 

There was a comic, I don't know what it is, but the vampires don't create other vampires; after feeding, they behead and burn the corpse. Simply because, more vampires means more competition for Food. If humans are Food, you don't want more of your kind getting there before you. 

The more spawn you have, needing food, the more likely you are to rouse some suspicions by clerics and other nasty things, that will swoop in and stomp you AND your undead minons' butts. So, it's best to Lay Low. Even moreso, those spawn have to sleep during the day. Where are you stowing these guys? Hundreds of stackable coffins in a portable hole? When the sun comes, and you're on your way to the next village, *POOF* There goes your army. And, let's not forget a river's in the path, or you've... dare I say, 'got the shaft'.

Equally, I don't see _How_ a vampire is going to go to every house in the village, knock on the door, say 'Hi, let me in', and proceed to eat the entire village before daybreak, THEN bury the entire village, to create his spawn. That seems a little... Work Intensive. First, he has to be invited. Then, he has to dominate each person to keep them from screaming. Then, he has to drain them, and kill them, do this 79 more times, and then bury 80 people.

Let us not forget that a thorp of 80 is going to have lots of children of varying ages, and people of considerable ages. I don't care if it's a spawn, a 3 year old doesn't make a good spawn, or a 70 year old grandma. And, you don't want to Feed off the old, either, since well... they're old, and diseased, or Weak. That's like eating a cold Big Mac when there's an 18 year old, powerful, full blooded prime rib down the street.

Really, the best tactic would be to get you some Servants, and either bleed them into a bowl now and then, instead of directly leeching off of them, or just dominate many able bodied men, monsters, and so on, have Them go ransack you a village, humanoid tribe, whateve, and get you your food.

Now, Secondly...

In reguards to the 'Slam' draining levels, okay, let us use a different varient power suggested here. Vampire drains +1s from weapons, or whatever. If a vampire had *this* ability, we all would complain on how that makes no sense and how it's not in the lore. But it does the Very Same Thing as the level drain: screws up the party. 

The meaning Behind the level drain is the negative energy so infused in a vampire is brought outward by a violent thrust of power, which happens to be delivered by his Fist. 

How about, for the sake of arguement, we picture the vampire grabbing someone by the skull, and Pouring negative energy into them. Yes, this could be 'Grappling', and it also could be 'Domination', but for the sake of arguement, this could qualify as a slam. 

Next, let us look at the 'Con' drain due to bite.

Have you ever tried to grapple in melee? Especially when there's 3 other people smacking on you to Get Off? It's HARD! Even if you use that Domination ability, that doesn't work much in combat, because using a spell like draws an AoO, and that leaves you quite open. Limiting the level drain to bite really makes that kinda hard, to get it off. You can slam one PC a round. You can't bite one a round (But you can damn sure nearly kill ONE if you latch on there long enough). 

Fourth, about Con being permenant or temp... The example was used that someone 30 years later still has Con loss... That's not a good example. If someone who lost permenant Con is alive for 30 years prior, then I want to shake that person's hand. They sustained cold winters, hot summers, Disease, and other Fort-save-dependant things, with a weakened fort and low HPs. If this person is a commoner, that's *amazing*. Most people who sustain Con damage usually DIE, if not from the con loss or the vampire sucking them dry, then by natural causes because A) Immune system weak, or B) Physical exertion and regular life takes it's tole.

Frankly, Other permenant con damage like Poisons, I think, is a lot more nasty then a single vampire bite. I'm more worried about Rogues with a big budget buying lots of Con poison, as aposed to a single vampire who Might bite me.

Lastly, to answer the proposed thing about vampires Feeding, they *could* drink from animals, y'know. I bet Cows have a Lot more blood. Riding dogs have average Con 15, as aposed to the human's 10. Horses have 17 or 15, respectively. True, it's not as _tasty_ as a human's, but when you need some, and don't want to deplete the local population, go for it.

The vampire is just another example of monsters who Can be used for pure combat, and can be a Lot more. Mindflayers, Rakshasas, even Liches, these creatures are often more likely to work from the shadows, through a great network of spies, henchmen, and aliases. They may Never get their hands dirty. Professor Moriarity, until he came to meet Sherlock Holmes on equal footing in Sherlock's home, had never been seen, yet he was the head man behind all of London's crime. Equally, when he met Sherlock, it was a polite warning to stay away. There was no fight, there was no this or that. As so, can your creature.

They have the potential to be combat monkies, monsters, fodder, and what have you, but in that same light, they can be what you want. Mindflayers are either nasty brainsucking critters that try to just kill you, or they set up powerstrings, ala Speaker of Dreams, and may be behind empires, bandit bands, or secret societies even. So, it relies as much on you, as it does your monster.


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## Dagredhel (Jul 24, 2002)

Hey everybody.  My biggest gripe with the D&D vampire is that way too tough for low to mid-level play.  Sure, you can add class levels to a vampire to toughen 'em up, but it's not as easy to water them down.  (Considering their aversion to running water, that's a pun, I think, even if it is a pretty poor one.)  I'd be a lot happier with a monster that was scalable for all levels of play, rather than an uber-monster that even high level characters find nearly unkillable.  Even Vampire Spawn are pretty darn powerful.


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## Voadam (Jul 24, 2002)

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> Can I just say, Voadam, that your campaign sounds very cool. *




Thanks mmadsen. I think it is a lot of fun, and my players have stuck with it since the eighties (although we only get to play a few times a year now with everybody scattered across the country).

Vampires have come up only three times directly in the entire campaign, one pre-Ravenloft confrontation where the whole party ran away and never came back, one ravenloft encounter with a castle owner/would be lord who they were convinced was a vamp or something else bad and managed to leave ASAP without provoking or confronting him after interacting and giving him news of the land, and one of the character's dark powers descent into a non-energy draining pseudo vampirism. There have been rumors of powerful people who may be vampires, but the party is fervently hoping to never go against one.

It has been interesting developing a grugach wild fey-like vampire slowly through the dark powers mechanisms. It has developed more like a WOD vamp or the DoD vampyre than a classic D&D one but it works well atmospherically and as a graduated power and curse buildup for the PC as well.


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## mmadsen (Jul 24, 2002)

> My biggest gripe with the D&D vampire is that way too tough for low to mid-level play.  Sure, you can add class levels to a vampire to toughen 'em up, but it's not as easy to water them down.



Even the Vampire class I tried to throw together yielded surprisingly scary 1st-level Vampire Spawn.


> I'd be a lot happier with a monster that was scalable for all levels of play, rather than an uber-monster that even high level characters find nearly unkillable.



Taking away the level-draining slam might be just what you're looking for.  Without that, the Vampire wants to catch his prey alone, so he can dominate and bite; he can't just stand and fight.


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## Voadam (Jul 24, 2002)

The bonus combat feats, undeadness and turning to mist when down to 0 hit points makes them still pretty ready to physically fight, but removing the level drain makes people less hesitant to tangle with them hand to hand.


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## The Serge (Jul 24, 2002)

I've been thinking about this "slam-thing."

In the old Hammer films dominated by Peter "Grand Moff Tarkin" Cushing and Christopher "Saruman" "Darth Tyranus' Lee, Dracula used to lift, throw, wrassle, and otherwise physically abuse his foes.

In Copolla's _Brams Stoker's Dracula_, Dracula slaps the *TAR* out of Quincy and someone else (can't remember).  He also repeatedly slams Renfield into metal bars.

In the old Bela Lugosi _Dracula_, he strangles Renfield.

In the Frank Langella _Dracula_, he flings every around like rag dolls and effortlessly kills Van Helsing at the end (indirectly leading to his own death).

Now, granted, these are movies but these are also examples of the most "classic" of Vampires.  In all of these examples, Dracula is flinging, throwing, slaming, smashing (he smashes from a heavy wooden coffin in one), and otherwise physically abusing mortals and lesser Vampires.  

We've already noted as well that in your more "folklorish" stories, Vampires seem to suck the strength out of victims they touch or are physically close to _before_ biting.  And, in Anne Rice's stuff, there are many times when victims seem to be stunned before they are attacked (although as mmadsen suggested, this could also be a version of the _dominate_ power).

With these examples in mind, I don't see a problem with the ability based upon classic, folk lorish, and "modern" concepts of Vampires.


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## dagger (Jul 24, 2002)

Dont know if this is been mentioned or not, but the vampires in the Necroscope (by Brian Lumley) books are very cool.


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## mmadsen (Jul 24, 2002)

> In all of these examples, Dracula is flinging, throwing, slaming, smashing (he smashes from a heavy wooden coffin in one), and otherwise physically abusing mortals and lesser Vampires.



You've made the case that a Vampire can and will smack around mortals.  I don't know what else an unarmed, super-strong, invulnerable Vampire would do against a large group in a melee.  In a Victorian or modern setting, is he supposed to pull a gun?

At any rate, I don't see how this implies he's draining levels (or draining anything, for that matter).  Van Helsing certainly doesn't cry out, "Don't let him touch you!  His negative energy will eat your soul!"


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## frankthedm (Jul 24, 2002)

I like customizing my vampires. Not all have the MM abilities but I try to make each formidable. TBH I was  influenced by the LoK: Soul Reaver video game.  Wounds from wooden piercing weapons won’t heal till the weapon is pulled out [staking myth] .



 I usually replace the negative level slam with the vampire being so fast it gets an extra physical partial action each round. [attack or movement ] This keeps the vamp formidable in combat to where it can keep up with the tanks without the players whining bout their levels.

>many are horrid looking but use their deception based powers to look human [mirrors reveal this ruse and will make self conscious vamps recoil. Extreme Physical or mental stress may also case a lapse in this False Face 

>A fair amount of these blood suckers can alter themselves physically similar to an alter self spell.. Wings for flight [base speed], quadrapedal for a speed boost [+10 to speed ]. They use their False face to make their wings look like long cloak or cape, while in quadruped form their false face makes them appear like a wolf. I like this better than a full polymorph self into a tiny bat[see below] or into a dire wolf.

If thier body gets staked  or incapacitated their spirits may stick around their body, gaining in strength till their spirits become wraiths or specters. If the spirit gets back into its vampiric body after this then it gets the level drain

>At “death” some of them become a small creature or groups of them depending on strength of the vampire. My PC’s this year had to deal with firebats* that were birthed from burning vampire corpses which had heavily fed on fire dragon blood.

*Think small-size fire elemental stirges


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## mmadsen (Jul 25, 2002)

> Dont know if this is been mentioned or not, but the vampires in the Necroscope (by Brian Lumley) books are very cool.



I don't suppose you feel like telling us _how_ they're cool...


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## Dagredhel (Jul 25, 2002)

*Free Goodies!!!*

Has everyone grabbed their free web enhancement for Denizens of Darkness?  It has the spawn for the variant vampire strains included in the book.  Here is the link.


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## SHARK (Jul 25, 2002)

Greetings!

Gotta love vampires! Ya know, it's kinda funny. I have developed a Vampire class that scales to level 20, and I also have a special Vampire Prestige Class. I'll have to post them up here shortly!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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## Voadam (Jul 25, 2002)

Please do, I'd love to see them.


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## The Serge (Jul 25, 2002)

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> You've made the case that a Vampire can and will smack around mortals.  I don't know what else an unarmed, super-strong, invulnerable Vampire would do against a large group in a melee.  In a Victorian or modern setting, is he supposed to pull a gun?*




Not necessarily.  He could pull a knife, a dagger, a sword (rapier), or bash someone's head in with a heavy cane or walking stick in the case of the Victorian Vampire.  The modern Vampire could pull a knife, or some kind of small, easily concealed weapon.  Heck, she could even pull a gun is she wanted to, although I don't see why she would when she could pound the victim into the ground and then drink his/her blood.



			
				mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> At any rate, I don't see how this implies he's draining levels (or draining anything, for that matter).  Van Helsing certainly doesn't cry out, "Don't let him touch you!  His negative energy will eat your soul!" *




You are partially right.  Most legends associated with Vampires do not confer a "weakness of the soul" when they approach or attack.  However, as it's already been mentioned here, there are a few folklorish legends that do mimick such an ability.  And, I recently re-read Stoker's _Dracula_ and I think Van Helsing does mention something at some point about vampires having a terrible touch or something.  I can't claim that entirely since I don't really remember...


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## mmadsen (Jul 25, 2002)

> He could pull a knife, a dagger, a sword (rapier), or bash someone's head in with a heavy cane or walking stick in the case of the Victorian Vampire.  The modern Vampire could pull a knife, or some kind of small, easily concealed weapon.  Heck, she could even pull a gun is she wanted to, although I don't see why she would when she could pound the victim into the ground and then drink his/her blood.



I'm reminded of the _Far Side_ cartoon with the two scientists in a jeep on safari.  Two bull elephants are coming out of the tall grass in front of them.  "Look out, this one's got a knife!"


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## mmadsen (Jul 26, 2002)

A passage from _Dracula_ (available on-line) that seems appropriate:


> [Mina Harker speaks"...Beside the bed, as if he had stepped out of the mist, or rather as if the mist had turned into his figure, for it had entirely disappeared, stood a tall, thin man, all in black.  I knew him at once from the description of the others. The waxen face, the high aquiline nose, on which the light fell in a thin white line, the parted red lips, with the sharp white teeth showing between, and the red eyes that I had seemed to see in the sunset on the windows of St. Mary's Church at Witby. I knew, too, the red scar on his forehead where Jonathan had struck him. For an instant my heart stood still, and I would have screamed out, only that I was paralyzed.  In the pause he spoke in a sort of keen, cutting whisper, pointing as he spoke to Jonathan.
> 
> "`Silence! If you make a sound I shall take him and dash his brains out before your very eyes.'  I was appalled and was too bewildered to do or say anything.  With a mocking smile, he placed one hand upon my shoulder and, holding me tight, bared my throat with the other, saying as he did so, `First, a little refreshment to reward my exertions. You may as well be quiet.  It is not the first time, or the second, that your veins have appeased my thirst!' I was bewildered, and strangely enough, I did not want to hinder him. I suppose it is a part of the horrible curse that such is, when his touch is on his victim.  And oh, my God, my God, pity me!  He placed his reeking lips upon my throat!" Her husband groaned again.  She clasped his hand harder, and looked at him pityingly, as if he were the injured one, and went on.
> 
> "I felt my strength fading away, and I was in a half swoon. How long this horrible thing lasted I know not, but it seemed that a long time must have passed before he took his foul, awful, sneering mouth away.  I saw it drip with the fresh blood!"The remembrance seemed for a while to overpower her, and she drooped and would have sunk down but for her husband's sustaining arm. With a great effort she recovered herself and went on.



The passage establishes that Dracula can take gaseous form, that he scars (if attacked with a holy weapon), that he dominates with a stare, and that he drains with his bite (not just his touch).


> With that he pulled open his shirt, and with his long sharp nails opened a vein in his breast.  When the blood began to spurt out, he took my hands in one of his, holding them tight, and with the other seized my neck and pressed my mouth to the wound, so that I must either suffocate or swallow some to the.  . .Oh, my God!  My God!  What have I done?



And Mina becomes a (partial) vampire spawn by drinking some of Dracula's blood in return.

That's how Stoker's Dracula "works".

Edit: Forgot to put in e-text URL!


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## The Serge (Jul 26, 2002)

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *The passage establishes that Dracula can take gaseous form, that he scars (if attacked with a holy weapon), that he dominates with a stare, and that he drains with his bite (not just his touch).
> 
> And Mina becomes a (partial) vampire spawn by drinking some of Dracula's blood in return.
> 
> That's how Stoker's Dracula "works". *




Point.

I still think there's something in the text that suggests a physical touch from a Vampire, excluding the bit, drains, but I've neither the time nor the inclination to look it up.

Well done, though, mmadsen.


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## mmadsen (Jul 26, 2002)

> I still think there's something in the text that suggests a physical touch from a Vampire, excluding the bit, drains, but I've neither the time nor the inclination to look it up.  Well done, though, mmadsen.



Thank you.  It's pretty amazing what you can do with an e-text and a simple search for "touch".


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## mmadsen (Jul 26, 2002)

> The passage establishes that Dracula can take gaseous form, that he scars (if attacked with a holy weapon), that he dominates with a stare, and that he drains with his bite (not just his touch).
> 
> And Mina becomes a (partial) vampire spawn by drinking some of Dracula's blood in return.



Given those factoids, how do we modify the existing D&D Vampire to get a Stoker Dracula Vampire?  I don't think we have to do much.  We just remove the level-drain from "slamming" and apply it only with a bite.  And we may need to boost the Vampire's Strength even more.  A typical Vampire has just Str 16 -- impressive for a mortal man, but not enough to throw adventurers around.

It only gets complicated when we try to handle spawning and partial spawning.  Does _any_ victim rise from the grave?  Or did Dracula have to feed them?  He certainly feeds Mina, and she comes partially under his thrall.  That certainly seems like a great dramatic scenario for a game -- chasing down the Vampire with the help of a character partially linked to him, yet hoping to kill hime and free herself of his domination, etc.


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## The Serge (Jul 26, 2002)

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> Given those factoids, how do we modify the existing D&D Vampire to get a Stoker Dracula Vampire?  I don't think we have to do much.  We just remove the level-drain from "slamming" and apply it only with a bite.  And we may need to boost the Vampire's Strength even more.  A typical Vampire has just Str 16 -- impressive for a mortal man, but not enough to throw adventurers around.
> 
> It only gets complicated when we try to handle spawning and partial spawning.  Does any victim rise from the grave?  Or did Dracula have to feed them?  He certainly feeds Mina, and she comes partially under his thrall.  That certainly seems like a great dramatic scenario for a game -- chasing down the Vampire with the help of a character partially linked to him, yet hoping to kill hime and free herself of his domination, etc. *




In my campaign, Vampires come about either by a curse, a special arrangement with one of three gods of evil (two my own, the other Orcus, Demon Prince of Undeath), or by consuming the blood of another vampire after most of the victim's blood has been depleted.  As a result, I don't bother with vampire spawn in my world.  For my world, Vampirism (and Lycanthropy) are the results of a supernatural and evil disease that corrupts the soul and makes it evil and depraved.  Also, most Vampires and Lycanthropes in my world are not interested in sharing their "dark gift" (to steal a Rice phrase) and revel in murdering those lesser than they.  A Vampire most likely to inflict a mortal with vampirism does so out of lonliness, because she herself was cursed, or because she has been ordered to do so by the god/goddess she serves.

However, that's my world.  Most legends confer vampirism on any person killed by a Vampire's bite (which differs from classic Lycanthropy in that only a survivor of a werewolf's attack becomes a werewolf).  This, of course, reinforces the suggestion that vampirism is an unholy, unnatural blight that cares nothing for the natural world concepts of not over hunting and such (which in itself is something of a falsehood.  African Elephants are notorious for tearing stuff down... One could argue that this helps out other, smaller animals, but it's unlikely that the Elephants are even considering this beyond their desire for more room and food).

There's no indication in _Dracula_ that Lucy is forced to drink the Count's blood (although her character says as much in the movie _Bram Stoker's Dracula_, it is never mentioned in the book.  That much I remember).  Yet and still, she becomes a vampire when she dies.  Also, we want a more classic, _Dracula_ inspired D&D vampire, we would have to include other changes as well.  Dracula moves around in broad daylight in that book, although he's weaker and trapped in the form he was last in when the sun rises...  D&D Vampires and most movie and book adaptations of _Dracula_ ignore that oft overlooked fact (except _Bram Stoker's Dracula_.


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## mmadsen (Jul 28, 2002)

> Dracula moves around in broad daylight in that book, although he's weaker and trapped in the form he was last in when the sun rises...



Was that the extent of his weakness to daylight?  He certainly kept nocturnal hours, sleeping by day, and only meeting Mr. Harker by night (when they met in Transylvania).


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## mmadsen (Jul 29, 2002)

> I have developed a Vampire class that scales to level 20, and I also have a special Vampire Prestige Class. I'll have to post them up here shortly!



Please do, SHARK.  They should tie in nicely with How Would You Defend a Mountain Fortress?.


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## CRG (Jul 29, 2002)

Well, after reading the last 20+ posts I'm convinced.

You need one "Yep, its a vampire" template/whatever.

Vampire spawn should probably be represented by some number of templates...
- the "Oops, drank some of the fiend's blood once" template
- the "I'm sitting at two and its going to be hard to pull me back and now I've got a taste for blood call me Lucy (wasn't that her name?)" template

Beyond that, the process kills the person in question and makes them a vampire.

Perhaps each step represents a 1/3 (1d6?) CON loss.  Vampire has a limit to only being able to drain this amount once per 24 hours.  

And, if you're really freaked about the negative-level-bestowing-touch, you could simply make it a special ability that he gets as a full round action - he can toss you around and beat the crap out of you or focus and hit you for some negative levels.  Those levels go away once the vampire (or you) are dead.


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## The Serge (Jul 29, 2002)

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> Was that the extent of his weakness to daylight?  He certainly kept nocturnal hours, sleeping by day, and only meeting Mr. Harker by night (when they met in Transylvania). *




Yes, that was the extent of it.  However, he showed a clear preference for sleeping by day.

Remember when Van Helsing, Jonathan, and the others go to one of the properties, fully expecting Dracula to show up?  This was during the day (he was going to get some money).  They confront him and try to fight him, but he flees.


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## mmadsen (Jul 29, 2002)

> Remember when Van Helsing, Jonathan, and the others go to one of the properties, fully expecting Dracula to show up?  This was during the day (he was going to get some money).  They confront him and try to fight him, but he flees.



Is that when Van Helsing summons his terriers from next door to take on the hordes of rats?  (I love that scene.)


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## Someone (Jul 29, 2002)

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> Was that the extent of his weakness to daylight?  He certainly kept nocturnal hours, sleeping by day, and only meeting Mr. Harker by night (when they met in Transylvania). *




I read the book long ago; I think he lost all vampire powers during daylight and become a normal man, although extremely strong and agile.


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## mmadsen (Jul 29, 2002)

If we replace the Con drain from the bite with Negative Levels, and we introduce a Vampire class with multiple levels, perhaps we can mix the two.  Negative Levels that become permanent don't become lost levels; they become Vampire levels.

Just thinking out loud...


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## Bob Aberton (Jul 30, 2002)

I would suggest the following changes to the Vampire:

Give it an "Inhuman Strength" ability - +6 to existing strength score, plus the ability to take 20 on any grapple or strength check.

Take away level draining.

Allow a "Dark Gift (Anne Rice)" or "Baptism of Blood (Bram Stoker's 'Dracula' novel)" ability - by forcing a victim to drink its blood, the vampire can establish a link to the victim, similar to a 'mindlink.'  Upon death, any character so bonded will become a vampire.  Additionally, any character thus afflicted cannot handle any Holy object, tread on Holy ground, and suffers a -1 to attacks, saves, and skill checks in sunlight.


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## Dagredhel (Jul 30, 2002)

It has been a while since I read Stoker's Dracula, but my recollection is that his vampire's attacked their targets only when they were sleeping, or at least near to it.

I think this fits in with historical accounts of supposed cases of vampirism and extant folklore, in which someone of failing health would report a fevered recollection of someone recently departed, a relative or neighbor, troubling their sleep.  The conclusion reached by pre-scientific minds was that the cause of this person's distress was predation  by the restless spirit of the departed (or a demonic spirit residing in his corpse and assuming his likeness), in other words, a vampire.  Action was taken to prevent further attacks by taking some action against the corpse.

What I see as interesting in this is that the vampire attacks when the victim is vulnerable not just physically, abed and sleeping, but psychically as well.  The victim's conscious mind is relaxed, his or her mental barriers down.  The victim reacts to the vampire's attack as if it is but a dream or nightmare, and is even apt to forget it, as dreams are often forgotten once the sleeper wakens. 

The sense of paralysis that Mina feels when confronted by Dracula is also reminiscent of the helplessness a dreamer might experience in a nightmare, the sense of dislocation of perspective in which a dreamer feels as if he is watching a scene unfold but unable to exert himself to alter it.

From what I remember, the attack of Dracula's 'brides' on Jonathan Harker seem to him like a troubling, though decidedly erotic, nightmare.

And when Lucy rises from the grave, doesn't Van Helsing make some comment about how she is trapped eternally in some sort of fugue, having succumbed in her sleep?

I'd like to know what people think of this, especially those with more recent acquaintance with the text.


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## mmadsen (Jul 30, 2002)

> It has been a while since I read Stoker's Dracula, but my recollection is that his vampire's attacked their targets only when they were sleeping, or at least near to it.



I think you make a good point, Dagredhel.  The Vampire shouldn't drain his victims casually, in the midst of combat.  At the very least, we want his drain to take time and leave him somewhat vulnerable (i.e. give up an Attack of Opportunity).


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## Dagredhel (Jul 30, 2002)

In Dracula, the title character never attempts to make use of his hypnotic powers when confronted by a group, only on a solitary victim.  When the newly undead Lucy appeals to her former fiance Lord Godalming (if I'm remembering his name correctly,) when confronted by the group of men outside of her crypt, the attempt fails.  The Dominate power of the D&D vampire and the Charm Person ability of its spawn are much more puissant than the mesmeric power of Stoker's creations.  While the D&D vampire is nearly unstoppable, Dracula invariably flees when confronted by a group of men.


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## mmadsen (Jul 30, 2002)

> In Dracula, the title character never attempts to make use of his hypnotic powers when confronted by a group, only on a solitary victim.



Another good point.


> While the D&D vampire is nearly unstoppable, Dracula invariably flees when confronted by a group of men.



Stoker's Dracula behaves like a predator.  He's scary, and he's powerful, but he doesn't square up for a fair fight when he can snatch a victim at his leisure some other time.

I think that's key to the Vampire's flavor.


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## Xarlen (Jul 30, 2002)

Everything, so far, looks rather good folks!  

Although, I'm sorta dissapointed no one commented on anything I said...


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## mmadsen (Jul 30, 2002)

> I ask you this: How is this vampire going to Feed all of these spawn? People have been posing the question about a simple Vampire having to drain all this con from people to survive, how the heck does that same vampire feed 80 spawn?



If we assume that Vampires can go into a kind of torpor, I think that gets around the huge numbers of human prey they might need otherwise. 


> There was a comic, I don't know what it is, but the vampires don't create other vampires; after feeding, they behead and burn the corpse. Simply because, more vampires means more competition for Food. If humans are Food, you don't want more of your kind getting there before you.



I strongly suspect that those Vampires who do spawn more like themselves will vastly outnumber those few Vampires who don't.


> Equally, I don't see _How_ a vampire is going to go to every house in the village, knock on the door, say 'Hi, let me in', and proceed to eat the entire village before daybreak, THEN bury the entire village, to create his spawn. That seems a little... Work Intensive. First, he has to be invited. Then, he has to dominate each person to keep them from screaming. Then, he has to drain them, and kill them, do this 79 more times, and then bury 80 people.



I didn't think he had to do it all in one night.


> I don't care if it's a spawn, a 3 year old doesn't make a good spawn, or a 70 year old grandma.



Why don't old folks make decent Vampire Spawn?


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## Xarlen (Jul 30, 2002)

mmadsen said:
			
		

> > If we assume that Vampires can go into a kind of torpor, I think that gets around the huge numbers of human prey they might need otherwise.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## mmadsen (Jul 30, 2002)

> _I strongly suspect that those Vampires who do spawn more like themselves will vastly outnumber those few Vampires who don't._
> Eh? I don't follow.



My point was a bit Darwinian.  Vampires who spawn Vampires who themselves are more likely to spawn will have far more offspring in the future than those who don't.

Any kind of Vampirism that compels you to create more Vampires is much more likely to spread and force out less procreative strains.


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## Voadam (Jul 30, 2002)

On the spawning, 

If a vamp killing somebody causes them to come back as vamps unless something active is done to prevent it then vamps who don't know the angles will probably kill in their hunting bloodlust and create more vamps who are similarly ignorant. And so on, and so on. Can a newbie vamp kill and drain the first random people they encounter, generally yes.  You need disciplined and knowledgable vamps to contain themselves, or efficient vampire predators (PCs or heroes as an ecological factor for a world?) Otherwise you can easily have an undead plague killing every body in a large area if things are used as presented in the standard undead set up.


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## Xarlen (Jul 30, 2002)

Voadam cleared it up for me, thanks.

Well, it also would depen on your area, no? If you're, say, the only vampire on an island, then there you go. Unless other vampires migrate to your area...


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## Ciaran (Jul 31, 2002)

nemmerle said:
			
		

> *Funny this should come up - but just the other day I added "New Vampire Template" to my "Things to Do" list for Aquerra. . .
> 
> I want a more classic and fearsome vampire. . . *




I hate you.  Very, very much.



- Eric


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## mmadsen (Jul 31, 2002)

> I hate you.  Very, very much.



I'm guessing you play in nemmerle's campaign, Ciaran...?


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## mmadsen (Jul 31, 2002)

> If a vamp killing somebody causes them to come back as vamps unless something active is done to prevent it then vamps who don't know the angles will probably kill in their hunting bloodlust and create more vamps who are similarly ignorant. And so on, and so on.



Good point.


> Can a newbie vamp kill and drain the first random people they encounter, generally yes.  You need disciplined and knowledgable vamps to contain themselves, or efficient vampire predators (PCs or heroes as an ecological factor for a world?) Otherwise you can easily have an undead plague killing every body in a large area if things are used as presented in the standard undead set up.



Has anyone run an Undead Plague adventure?  Back when we were doing the Iron DM Home Game, I immediately thought that that was the way to use Ghouls.  Why ignore the consequences of undead spawning?


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## Kerrick (Jul 31, 2002)

I'm recently come to this discussion, so I only scanned over some of the replies. I do, however, agree that the 3E vampire sucks. Like most of the other monsters in the MM, there are NO RPing notes. Energy drain AND blood drain? WTF?
You add in a few levels of fighter and/or mage, and you've got a monster that could easily rip a party apart, if played properly. The key words here are _if player properly_; the MM is simply a list of monsters to throw at the players, with little thought to making them true adversaries, and like someone mentioned before, it's a crutch for lazy DMs. 
  Ok, before I get sidetracked on a rant about the MM... I've long had an interest in undead in general and vampries in particular. A few years ago, I stumbled across a netbook on vampires, written in some other format (I think it was WoD - it described vampirism as a virus?), and I decided to write a netbook for the generic AD&D vampire. I included new rules for feeding (CON loss according to the amount of blood drained), creation, powers gained with age, different powers from the norm, different species, etc. The 2E vampire couldn't drain blood, so I created a variant that could, and made the energy-draining type a weaker species (a greater wight, if you will). Incidentally, my rules for blood drain and feeding are remarkably similar to the RL 3E rules, which I hadn't seen until I read them here. 
  The 3E version of the Vampiricon is being written for publication, but you can find the 2E version here: www.geocities.com/mistmane/vampires.zip. It doesn't have all the stuff that's in the 3E version, but it's got enough that you can wreak havoc with your players - most of it is generic information.


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## mmadsen (Jul 31, 2002)

> Like most of the other monsters in the MM, there are NO RPing notes.



The Monster Manual would be more useful with a few plot hooks and suggestions with each entry, wouldn't it?


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## mmadsen (Aug 1, 2002)

> From a purely rules groundpoint, bad Str and Dex. Those old bodies aren't used to anything agile or strong, and therefore their hitting and damage would be worse off, as would their dex. So we're looking at, from a commoner, a 7-9 Str and Dex. Even with a vampire spawn template applied, this doesn't strike me as very good.



So Gramma the Vampire Spawn would only have Str 13.  She's still able to Charm and Drain any normal person.


> From a gaming aspect, I'm not really going to be That fearful of grampa if he was a vampire.



You'd better be!  Just because his Slam does a bit less damage doesn't mean he can't Charm you and Drain you of all your levels. 







> Sure, that'd be a sneaky surprise, but from a combat perspective, I think the spawn would be weaker then your average one.



Do they have to stand and fight?


> Let's put it like this: If you were recruting an army, would you include old people, or would you look for those around 16-30 in years?



If, say, the Legions of Good were coming, I'd recruit just about anyone into my Midnight Legion of Vampires.


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## LostSoul (Aug 1, 2002)

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> The Monster Manual would be more useful with a few plot hooks and suggestions with each entry, wouldn't it? *




Damn, that sounds like a great idea when you put it plainly like that.  Imagine three one-line plot hooks per monster.  Kick ass.

Maybe somebody can start a new thread.


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## mmadsen (Aug 1, 2002)

> Damn, that sounds like a great idea when you put it plainly like that.  Imagine three one-line plot hooks per monster.  Kick ass.
> 
> Maybe somebody can start a new thread.



Ask, and ye shall receive, LostSoul:  Three Plot Hooks Per Monster.


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Aug 1, 2002)

*My Take on This*

Well, I've migrated.  That aside.....

  I use vampires extensively in one of the Ages of my homebrewed campaign world, and we have them catoragorized into the following:
  Dark Spawn-Blood Drinker, increased strength, vulnerable to crosses, holy water, sunlight, wood through the heart.  Soft and squishy bodies, normal/sexy forms, hideous forms, and bat form.  These guys have level drain touch, but they are abominations, a wierd half-spawn.
  Vampires-Which is what everyone really cares about, not the dark spawn.
  Elder Vampires-What I think you guys are looking for.

  OK, the Elder Vampires are suave, urbane, cultured, knowledgable, and different.  Str is increased, as is Dex (Remember in Bram Stroker's Dracula, how he was climbing along the wall?  Pretty dexterous for an grandpa, eh?)  Spider Climb at will, feather fall (for dramatic, cape flaring entrances), no Con (they are still undead), Cha increased.  The do not bestow negative energy levels, but instead do the blood drain via the bite.  Domination (we use the Thrall power from the psionics handbook for a reference, in actuallity, we have the rules written as _Vampiric Domination_ in the write-up.
  Sunlight does not make an Elder (or True) Vampire go "EEAAAHH, I FORGOT MY RAYBANS!  *POOF!* but instead strips away thier vampiric abilities, leaving them with only the form that the vampire had when the sun rose (Wolf, Bat, Human, and one personalized one), but then, that can be handy.  The _only_ exception to this was after we watched Dracula 2000, we decided that if you hang a vampire by a rope at dawn, they choke and kick and die.
  They can cross running water, but they know all too well just how untrustworthy bridges can be, although they may try to leap them (if being chased by villagers!)
  So, what the party fears, rightly, is a masterful manipulator who lives forever, and can dominate through thier gaze, or their touch (A small quote-  "Shaven's fingers carress your cheek, his breath hot on your neck.  "Why do you tremble, butterfly?  I do not bring you death, I bring you life.  Life eternal."  His fingers leave glowing sparks beneath your skin that race through your nerves and fill you with a dark exstacy."), can spider climb, have shape change, feather fall, are immune to blunt weapons (the magic might whomp on them, but the warhammer part doesn't bother them), runs when confronted by superior numbers, has minions to do thier bidding (All True Vampires are snobbier than even the most deluded elf so they have very few minions.  Would you want every lackwit villager you bit joining your exclusive little countryclub?), strike when you are the weakest, and might be following you, above you, in the form of a bat?

  I have noticed a disturbing trend.  Too many people have the Vampire charge in like it's the set of From Dusk Till Dawn.  Those vampires deserve to die.  Darwinism at it's best.  The true scary ones use hit and run tactics that leave a kobold breathless, manipulate the stock market to bankrupt adventurer's, have multiple layers, cover identities, ect ect ect.
  Hopefully the days of the shroud covered lackwit that lays in his tomb waiting for the village idiot or dumb adventurers (only distinguishable by thier clothing and equipment) before rushing out and clobbering everything in sight with thier level drain (including that bush that's been teasing them!) are over.


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## mmadsen (Aug 1, 2002)

*Re: My Take on This*



> Too many people have the Vampire charge in like it's the set of From Dusk Till Dawn.



Yes, they assume the Vampire is another Monster to kill in a straight-up fight.  Why he wouldn't Dominate and Drain the PCs one at a time, I can't imagine.


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## mmadsen (Aug 2, 2002)

*Warlord Ralts*



> Well, I've migrated.



From?  To?


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## mmadsen (Aug 3, 2002)

I'm still waiting on those SHARK Vampires...


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## Bran Blackbyrd (Aug 4, 2002)

Ditto.


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## mmadsen (Aug 5, 2002)

> Ask, and ye shall receive, LostSoul:  Three Plot Hooks Per Monster.



I suppose we could use a few more Vampire plot hooks over there...


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## Voadam (Sep 3, 2002)

This thread inspired me to do some more freelance writing. If you are interested, in October GFDF Monsters should be coming out and I wrote a vampire template and vampire standard critter for it. Neither one has a slam energy drain attack The template is based off my memories of the movie Lost Boys, and the critter is a ready to go highly magical stock D&D vamp with different powers and vulnerabilities.


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## BluWolf (Sep 3, 2002)

I'm not sure if it was mentioned in this long topic but there was a vampire prestige class written up in Draogn magazine awhile back. I forget the issue but I'm guessing it was around 277-283, if memory serves.

My collection is currently  in storage.


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## mmadsen (Feb 1, 2003)

> I'm not sure if it was mentioned in this long topic but there was a vampire prestige class written up in Draogn magazine awhile back. I forget the issue but I'm guessing it was around 277-283, if memory serves.



Anyone know what that Vampire Prestige Class offered?


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## Voadam (Feb 1, 2003)

Voadam said:
			
		

> *This thread inspired me to do some more freelance writing. If you are interested, in October GFDF Monsters should be coming out and I wrote a vampire template and vampire standard critter for it. Neither one has a slam energy drain attack The template is based off my memories of the movie Lost Boys, and the critter is a ready to go highly magical stock D&D vamp with different powers and vulnerabilities. *




Well, it ended up not coming out in October. I talked to the publisher and he said publication was held back until March to coincide with the publication of the next gaming frontiers magazine.


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## Oni (Feb 1, 2003)

I will take this opportunity to pimp my stuff.  This is a Dhampir PrC that I made, it wouldn't take much (if anything) to convert it to a full scale vampire.  


Dhampir. 


	A dhampir is the result of the pairing of a vampire and a mortal woman, or a direct decendent of that union.  How these rare creatures come to be is difficult to say, but some sages believe that a vampire’s close ties to the to the vitality of life is what makes it possible.  Dhampirs are quite rare and few still of that number realize their full potential.  Dhampirs almost always come from either a human or elven background though a few exceptions to this exist.  Dhampirs are most often male, though female ones have been known to exist.  


Dark Lineage [general]
You are directly descended from a vampire who had a dalience with a mortal woman.  
Benefit: You have a strong connection to the night time.  You gain lowlight vision, if you already have lowlight vision you gain darkvision, if you already have darkvision you extent the range by 30ft.  Creatures of the night show deference to you, rats, bats, and wolves will not attack you unless provoked.  However daylight seems to wear at you.  From dawn to dusk you suffer a –1 circumstance penalty to all save, attack, damage, ability check, and skill rolls.  
	Special: This feat may only be taken at first level.  


Awakened Dhampir
“The Power of my ancestors flows in my blood……and yours.”


	Most Dhampir go through their lives never really knowing the full extent of their birthright, however now and again one discovers this power.  A Dhampir that has tasted the blood of a vampire begins to feel a stirring inside of him, a welling up of power that he did not know before, if he answers this call and draws upon this power nursing it like a newly started fire he will become awakened and learn the power of his ancestors.  
	The majority of Dhampir that tread this path often lose their way as they begin to lust for power and for blood.  Some are able to maintain their humanity and turn their dark powers on the very forces that spawned them and they are held in as much awe as they are fear.  Dhampir are commonly awakened by the vampire that parented them as tool to be set against their enemies.  
 	Dhampire come from almost any background though they are never good aligned clerics.  Their very nature makes them poor vessels to wield the divine energies of a good aligned god as they tend to have an adverse affect on their being.  
Hit Dice: d8


Requirments
To qualify to become an Awakened Dhampir, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.  
	Knowledge (Arcana): 4 ranks
	Feat: Dark Lineage
	Special: Must have drunk the blood of a true vampire, either willingly or unwillingly. However it should be noted that only characters of 5th level and higher have a strong enough life force and sense of self to do this. If a dhampir of inadaquate level drinks of the blood of a vampire, they are seized by blood madness. From dusk to dawn the become ravanous madmen as if under the unfluence of a barbarian rage they seek nothing but blood to sate their thirst. From dawn to dusk they are fatigued. This state of affairs can be cured with a heal spell which burns the foreign blood from their veins, though most do not survive long enough to receive this treatment. A heal spell will not strip an awakened dhampir of their powers as the vampire blood has become an intrinsic part of their being. 

Class Skills
The Awakened Dhampir’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Hide (Dex), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spot (Wis).

Skill Points at Each Level:  2 + Int modifier 

Class Features
All the following are class features of the awakened dhampir prestige class.  

Weapon and Armour Proficiency:  An awakened dhampir gains no additional proficiency in any weapon or armor.  

Heritage (Ex):  With the infusion and awakening of vampiric blood comes a price.  Awakened dhampirs gain some of the strengths and weaknesses of the parentage.  They gain a +2 to saving throws against mind-influencing attacks, energy drain attacks, cold, and electrical attacks.  Between dawn and dusk the dhampir has a –2 circumstance penalty to all save, attack, damage, ability check, and skill rolls made.  If a cleric turns or rebukes them they suffer a –2 morale penalty to all save, attack, damage, ability check, and skill rolls made for one minute.  If a cleric would be able to command or destroy then the penalty becomes –4.  A successful dispel turning check may negate these benalties and a successful Bolster Undead roll adds a +2 to all of the dhampirs save, attack, damage, ability check, and skill rolls for one minute.  Even a layperson that strongly presents a holy symbol to the dhampir may make a turning check, if they are success the penalty is a –1 morale penalty.  They also gain enhanced vision, creatures with lowlight vision gain darkvision, and creatures with darkvision may extend the range and additional 30ft.  

Blood Drain (Ex):  Though it is not unheard of for dhampirs to drink blood they  normally benefit little from this practice.  An awakened dhampir can however make use of blood they drain with practice.  Awakened dhampir may suck blood from the living or newly dead (slain within the last hour, may only gain half their con in blood points round down) with their fangs by making a successful grapple check.  If it pins the foe it drains blood, inflicting 1 temporary constitution damage each round the pin is maintained.  Each point of constitution drained in this manner grants 1 blood point, an awakened dhampir may hold 3xtheir awakened dhampir class level in blood points any beyond that are wasted.  

Blood Magic (Su):  Awakened dhampirs learn to draw upon the power of blood to to wield abilities similar to those of their ancestor.  To the untrained this often makes them hard to distinguish from their undead parents, though a dhampir’s powers are not as refined and must have blood to power them.  This ability only works during the hours from dusk until dawn.  Using a blood magic requires a standard action unless otherwise noted.      
-I. Commanding Gaze – The awakened dhampir may spend one blood point to make a gaze attack as a standard action against one target, those merely looking on but not targeted are unaffected.  The creature targeted must make a will save of DC 10 + awakened dhampir levels + Charisma modifier.  Those that fail are affected as though by a charm person spell with a caster level equal to the dhampir’s awakened dhampir level.  If the creature would not normally be affected by charm person, then they are not affected by this ability.  This ability has a range of 30ft.  
-II. Night Speech – By spending one blood point the dhampir may duplicate the effects of speak with animals, but only with rats, bats and wolves.  The caster level is equal to the dhampir’s awakened dhampir level. 
-III. Feral Shape – The awakened dhampir may spend two blood points to transform into bat or a wolf as per the druid’s wildshape ability, with the exception that it provides no healing.  This effect ends at dawn, or earlier if the awakened dhampir so chooses.  
-IV. Enhance – By spending a blood point the awakened dhampir may add a +1 to either their strength or dexterity score, more than one point can be spend in the manner and may be divided between strength and dexterity as the dhampir sees fit.  The awakened dhampir may not spend more blood points in a given round than they have awakened dhampir levels however.  This ability last for one minute.  
-V. Blood Regeneration – An awakened dhampir may spend up to their awakened dhampir level in blood points in a around to power this ability.  For each blood point spend in this manner the dhampir heals 1d8 damage to himself.  
-VI. Mist Form – An awakened dhampir may spend 3 blood points to duplicate the effects of a gaseous form spell on their person.  The duration is until dawn, but may be ended earlier if the dhampir so chooses.  
-VII. Dread Gaze – As commanding gaze, except it reproduces the effects of a dominate person spell and cost 3 blood points to use. 
-VIII. Greater Feral Shape – As Feral shape, except the dhampir may choose to assume the form of either a dire bat or a dire wolf and it cost 4 blood points to use this ability.  
-IX. Fortify – The awakened dhampir can call upon the power of blood to greatly increase their resiliency.  By spending 4 blood points the dhampir may can damage reduction 15/+1 for 1 round per awakened dhampir level.  
-X. Soul Touch – The awakened dhampir is able to reproduce perhaps one of the most feared powers of their undead parent.  By spending 5 blood points the dhampir may make a touch attack that deals 1d4 negative levels to the target as per the energy drain spell.  In 24 hours the recipient must make a saving throw for each negative level at a DC of 10 + awakened dhampir levels + Charisma modifier failure means the level is permanently drained.  Each level drained this manner grants Awakened Dhampir 5 temporary hit points.   



Class Level	Base Attack Bonus	Fort Save	Ref Save	Will Save	Special
1st	+0	+2	+2	+0	Blood Drain, Blood Magic I, Heritage   
2nd	+1	+3	+3	+0	Blood Magic II
3rd	+2	+3	+3	+1	Blood Magic III
4th	+3	+4	+4	+1	Blood Magic IV
5th	+3	+4	+4	+1	Blood Magic V
6th	+4	+5	+5	+2	Blood Magic VI
7th	+5	+5	+5	+2	Blood Magic VII
8th	+6	+6	+6	+2	Blood Magic VIII
9th	+6	+6	+6	+3	Blood Magic IX
10th	+7	+7	+7	+3	Blood Magic X


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## tetsujin28 (Feb 1, 2003)

*Re: Re: Am I the only one who doesn't like the D&D Vampire? (Pointless rant, I suppose)*



			
				ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> *
> 
> It would have been great if, instead, they did a Belly-to-Belly Soufflex and put you in the Camel Clutch.
> 
> Wrasslin' vampires! *



That's "suplex," Colonel. I don't know what a Soufflex is...maybe some sort of abyssal soufle?


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## oracle (Feb 2, 2003)

I just found this thread and thought you might be interested in having a look at Bottled Imp Games.

Their first product is specifically about Vampires, and they seem to be coming at the idea from a fresh angle. They've got a couple of interesting previews on their downloads page.

It might be worth a look: www.bottledimpgames.com


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## Bran Blackbyrd (Feb 2, 2003)

Wow, someone exhumed this thread...
Whatever happened to the SHARK vampire?

Cool stuff Oni.


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## Wolv0rine (Feb 2, 2003)

Green Knight said:
			
		

> *What about the average person who doesn't have access to 4th level spells? Isn't someone who's a victim of a vampire attack just supposed to be sick for a while (As a result of the blood loss), and then recover as if nothing happened? It'd be pretty dumb if half the population in the countryside was pasty white and sickly for the rest of their lives.*




Mina Harker was a big-time vampire victim, and she eventually recovered her health (I'm pretty darned sure).  Now her husband, him I don't really remember about.  But good lord he was the main course in a she-vamp dinner party, which is a little more severe than just being lightly dined upon once.


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## Arthur Tealeaf (Feb 3, 2003)

*Arrgh!*

I shall not let this thread perish!!!!!

B-U-M-P-!

Sorry, but I don't have time to add a proper opinion, and I don't want the thread to disappear!


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## Green Knight (Feb 3, 2003)

Wow! Can't believe this thread is still going! Anyway, to add to the discussion: 



> Mina Harker was a big-time vampire victim, and she eventually recovered her health (I'm pretty darned sure). Now her husband, him I don't really remember about. But good lord he was the main course in a she-vamp dinner party, which is a little more severe than just being lightly dined upon once.




Exactly my point. They kept drinking from this guy and he didn't die. If he didn't recover, then he would've been dead pretty fast. So he obviousl recovered enough that they could keep drinking from him without killing him. So people do recover from a vampire bite. At least according to Bram Stoker. It seems like such a pointless thing to me. More like that rule's there to screw with PC's rather than to portray a vampire the way it should be portrayed. And if the goal is to create a critter that exists solely to screw with PC's, then why not create a wholly new critter? Or a vampire variant? But for the vampire itself, let's keep it as sensible and as close to the source material (As in Dracula) as possible. 

And hey, if you want a vampire that DOES do permanent CON damage, why not make it a variant? Or give vampires a list of additional powers to choose from, like the Ghost, which makes them more unique? That's my opinion, anyway. 

Whatever the case, here's hoping D&D 3.5 does a better job of it when it comes to the vampire.


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## Oni (Feb 3, 2003)

Well on a certain level I can understand the permanent con drain.  It makes them more vile and prone to being evil.  It gives the vampires bite a lasting effect, he has permanently harmed whoever he feeds off of.  He can't just flit from victim to victim not really harming anyone or killing anyone.  It makes being a vampire less desirable.  Permanent con drain really shouldn't mean much to PC of the level that would usually be facing a vampire.


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## Kyramus (Feb 3, 2003)

For the lack of anything to do, I went to a Blade site and took down the names of the tribes and their quick summary.

Use those summary to alter the spawn they produce or the vampires themselves.

Went with the changes for spawn and template and added CR or decreased CR in some cases.

I now have 11 extra kinds of vampires that have unusual abilities.

One even got a strength boost and that brought the cr up.
one of the tribes was known to be extremely alergic to light etc, so i brought down the DR and the elemental resistance to reflect this and droped the cr by 1.

Hehehe nice changes though.


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## mmadsen (Feb 3, 2003)

> In addition, I think this kind of "vampire" does exist, only under different names like Ghast, Ghoul, and Wight.



The more I think about it, the more the Ghoul -- its stat block, not the image in the _Monster Manual_ -- reflects the classic vampire -- except that it's lacking the Blood Drain.


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## mmadsen (Feb 4, 2003)

> The more I think about it, the more the Ghoul -- its stat block, not the image in the _Monster Manual_ -- reflects the classic vampire -- except that it's lacking the Blood Drain.



Or perhaps the Wight -- with a few small changes:

Blood Drain -- as Energy Drain, but only with Grapple & Pin
Paralysis -- as Ghoul's Paralysis, but only for a few rounds
Fascinate -- as _N_th-level Bard (or Hypnotism, as Sorcerer)


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