# Psion vs. Cerebremancer vs. Psion Uncarnate



## Asmor (Sep 12, 2006)

I've got to come up with a 17th level character for a campaign (campaign's not gonna be starting for a while, so I'm not in any rush). I'm pretty sure I want to be a psion because I've been on a psionics kick lately and my last character was a fighter/paladin and I'm sick of the whole martial thing for now. Plus, the party doesn't have a decent offensive caster out of 6-7 members (other casters are a Cleric and a significantly lower-level Tarot Mage, 3rd party thing).

So my first instinct was to go with Cerebremancer, with a Wizard/Psion build. Psion for the business spells, Wizard for the utility. I've decided I probably won't go that direction, though, because it just seems a little repetitive and redundant, not to mention all the extra book keeping.

So now I'm split between going straight Psion or going Psion 7/Psion Uncarnate 10. I really like the idea of playing an Uncarnate Shaper. I find the whole duality (is that the right word?) of an incorporeal thing who can create physical manifestations rather interesting. I'd style myself almost as a force of nature.

On the flip side, though, this means losing 4 manifester levels, which seems like it might be a pretty big deal. Given that most of the damage spells are augmentable, that's almost like -4d6 to all my damage and -2 to all my saves, not to mention losing out on the really cool abilities that level 9 powers can give you. It would also mean a big difference in power points, the straight psion having almost 60 percent more (assuming a 28 intelligence, 18 natural + 4 ability increase + 6 item, that's 205 PP vs. 326). As a 13th-level manifester I could cast 15 max-level powers per day (at 13pp each) vs. a 17th-level manifester casting 17 max-level powers per day (at 17pp each).

Roleplaying isn't really a huge part of this game, so my preference for the character idea isn't as important as most people might suggest, although I certainly won't discount it. The fact that I'm torn on this decision of coolness vs. raw power is evidence that the idea does mean a bit to me...

So basically I guess what it boils down to is how useful the whole Uncarnate thing is. Given that we're 17th level, I'd say it's a fair assumption that anything that wants to hit me could hit me, so the only real benefit I get is flying and a 50% miss chance.

What is your opinion?


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## Patlin (Sep 12, 2006)

Have you had a look at the unbodied, to compare to the Psion Uncarnate? Starting at high level is the perfect opportunity to try one.


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## Piratecat (Sep 12, 2006)

Unbodied:  http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/unbodied.htm


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## superkurt13 (Sep 12, 2006)

Unfortunately there aren't too many good PrC's for psions.  I've never been a big fan of either psion uncarnate or cerebmancer due to the lost levels.  Have you looked at either the Slayer or the Thrallherd?  You only loose 1 level with the slayer but gain d8 hit dice, proficiency with all weapons and armor, and immunity to all mind affecting powers (a VERY nice ability).  Thrallherd is cool because of the thralls and followers you command.  Still if I were in your position i might just be inclined to stay psion in order to get access to the 9th level spells


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## Someone (Sep 12, 2006)

Asmor said:
			
		

> I'd say it's a fair assumption that anything that wants to hit me could hit me, so the only real benefit I get is flying and a 50% miss chance.




You have to add cover to that (you only have to stick your face out of the wall or floor to see, so there´s no reason to show your whole body). Many opponents won´be able to touch you in the least; many more won´t be able to grapple you, you´re immune to trip, are perfectly silent, can´t be detected by smell, tremorsense and many forms of blindsight, and you´ll be immune to almost all environmental dangers. I don´t know if it´s worth the loss of 8th and 9th level powers, but sounds way cool.

On the comparison of psion uncarnate vs Unbodied, in both cases you lose 4 manifester levels, and have very similar abilities. Unbodied have better stats, but the psion uncarnate have the very important assume equipment ability, and you´re not forced to be a telepath.


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## wildstarsreach (Sep 12, 2006)

superkurt13 said:
			
		

> Unfortunately there aren't too many good PrC's for psions.  I've never been a big fan of either psion uncarnate or cerebmancer due to the lost levels.  Have you looked at either the Slayer or the Thrallherd?  You only loose 1 level with the slayer but gain d8 hit dice, proficiency with all weapons and armor, and immunity to all mind affecting powers (a VERY nice ability).  Thrallherd is cool because of the thralls and followers you command.  Still if I were in your position i might just be inclined to stay psion in order to get access to the 9th level spells




Cerebramancer is probably the most broken PrC.  Yes you give up 3 levels of each but if you take Practised Manifester/Spellcaster, you make up most of the loss and have more endurance than either one.  Below is my 17th level character in a campaign that just ended at 20th.

This is a great PrC and really makes the perceptions of Psionics being broken much more so.  Both classes use the same primary state so that a spliting of stats doesn't water down the character.

Jadenian Hallistar 17th level 
Male Kalashtar Psion Telepath 4(14), Wizard 3(13), Cerebremancer 10, Level 1, 3 Psion Kalashtar Telepath replacement level 
XP: 136000+
Align: LG Race: Medium humanoid (Kalashtar)
Init: +1/3(4) Senses Spot: +9 Search: +13 Listen: +2
Languages: Common, Quori, Riedran, Daan, Draconic, Orcish, Goblinoid
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
AC: 18 (19) Touch: 16 (17) Flat-footed: 15
HP: 78 (17 HD)  1
Fort: +12 (+1) Ref: +13(14) (+1) Will: +19 (+21 vs. mind) (+1 when in state of insight DP Feat)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Speed: 30 ft.
Melee: +8
Ranged: +1 light crossbow +13(14) (1d8+1) (+2d6 w/Psionic shot), Ranged touch +12(13) within 30’, Ranged +11(12) at more than 30’
Base Attack: +8/+3; Grapple +7
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scrolls: 
Scroll of Dispel Magic @9th level
Scroll of Spell Vulnerability @ 9th level 
Psionic Powers (ML 17, PP 250) DC 19/ (21 for telp*) + pwr/lvl + aug Pts Spent: 243
7th (13) - Energy Wave DC 26-29, Evade Burst
6th (11) – Psionic Disintegrate DC 26, Mindswitch DC 27-30, Temporal Acceleration, Psionic Contingency
5th (9) – Psychic Crush* DC 25, Adapt Body, Mind probe* DC 25, Tower of Iron Will* 
4th (7) – Dimension Door, Energy Adaptation, Schism*, Mindwipe* DC 24-29
3rd (5) – Body Adjustment, Hostile Empathic Transfer* DC 23, Psionic Blast* DC 23, Stun Quori Spirit* DC 22-28
2nd (3) - Read Thoughts* DC 23, Levitate 
1st (1) – Energy Ray, Entangling Ectoplasm, Force Screen, Mind Link* (racial 3/day free or cost), Mind Thrust* DC 20-29, Psionic Charm* DC 20-30, Vigor
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spell Prepared: CL 17th 
Spells memorized and Bonus Spells: (3x1st, 2x2nd, 2x3rd, 2x4th, 2x5th, 1x6th, 1x7th, 1x8th, 1x9th) 
DC	1st 	2nd 	3rd 	4th 	5th 	6th 	7th 	8th 	9th 
	19/20	19/21	19/22	19/23	19/24	19/25	19/26	19/27	19/28
2x7th – Greater Teleport, Finger of Death
3x6th – Acid Fog, Mordenkainen’s Lucubration, Otiluke’s Freezing Sphere
5x5th – Mass Fly, Greater Blink, Wall of Stone, Cone of Cold, Teleport
6x4th – Greater Invisibility, Orb of Acid, Stoneskin, Detect Scrying, Orb of Force, Force Missiles
6x3rd - Bands of Steel, Dispel Magic, Invisibility Sphere, Resonating Bolt, Fireball, Anticipate Teleportation
6x2nd – Scorching Ray x2, See Invisibility x2, Phantasmal Assailants, Mirror Image
7x1st – Magic missile x3_4, Tenser’s Floating Disc, Obscuring mist, Shocking Grasp 
4x0th – Detect Magic x2, Read Magic, Mage Hands
Spell book: 
0th Read Magic, Detect Magic, Light, Ray of Frost, Disrupt Undead, Mage Hands, Daze, Acid Splash, Detect Poison, Flare, Mending, Message, Arcane Mark, Resistance
1st Shield, Chill Touch, Mage Armor, Sleep, Identify, Expeditious Retreat, Mount, Color Spray, Cause Fear, Ray of Enfeeblement, Obscuring Mist, Disguise Self, Magic Missile, Tenser’s Floating Disc, Repair Light Damage, Enlarge Person, Shocking Grasp, Buzzing Bee 
2nd Phantasmal Assailants, Familiar Pocket, Scare, Mirror image, Scorching Ray, Web, Knock, Arcane Lock, Spectral Hand, Baleful Transportation, Belker Claws, Body of the Sun, Bone Fiddle, Burning Sword, See Invisibility, Invisibility
3rd Lesser Crimson Bands of Cytorakk, Lightning Bolt, Fireball, Vampiric Touch, Spell Vulnerability, Spider skin, Hold Person, Resonating Bolt, Amorphous Form, Fly, Chain Missile, Dispel Magic, Anticipate Teleportation, Invisibility Sphere
4th Unluck, Burning Blood, Orb of Acid, Orb of Force, Orb of Electricity, Assay of Spell Resistance, Force Missiles, Greater Invisibility, Stoneskin, Polymorph, Evard’s Black Tentacles, Voice of the Dragon
5th Feeblemind, Leomund’s Hidden Lodge, Teleport, Passwall, Cone of Cold, Permanency, Wall of Stone, Baleful Polymorph, Transmute Rock to Mud, Transmute Mud to Rock, Mass Fly, Greater Blink
6th Stone to Flesh, Mordenkainen’s Lucubration, Acid Fog, Fire Spiders, Otiluke’s Freezing Sphere, True Seeing, Cloak of the Sea
7th Finger of Death, Greater Teleport, Mordenkainen’s Magnificent Mansion, Statue, Limited Wish, Delayed Blast Fireball, Synostodweomer
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Abilities: Strength 10 (0), Dexterity 12 (16 w/gloves) (+3), Constitution 14 (+2), Intelligence 22 (28 w/circlet) (+4 level stats) (+9), Wisdom 10 (0), Charisma 10 (14 w/Cloak)(0/+2)
Special Qualities: +2 racial bonus on saves against mind effecting spells, +2 racial bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate, Immune to dream and nightmare spells, Mind link 2/day, 1 extra power point per level, -1 to all strength based checks, Divine boon: Comprehend Languages 1/day @ 17th level
Action Points: 13(4)+Temp (up to 8 a day if under prophetic favor, one at a time)
Feats: Summon Familiar, Telepathic Talent, Psicrystal Affinity, Point Blank Shot, Psionic Shot (+2d6 to missile weapons if psionic focus spent), Precise Shot (no penalties for firing into melee), Scribe Scroll (11912 Craft Points), Practiced Spell caster (up to +4 levels for caster effect based on other classes), Dragon Prophesier (8xday, duration 17 rounds), Alertness, Compound Psicrystal, Prophesy’s Hero (1 temp action point when in prophetic favor), Practiced Manifester (up to +4 levels for Manifester effect based on other classes)
Skills (160):  Auto Hypnosis (8/+10), Bluff (5/+9), Concentration (20/+22), Diplomacy (10/+16), Intimidate (1/+7), Knowledge (Arcana) (19/+28), Knowledge (Dungeoneering) (6/+15), Knowledge (History) (1/+10), Knowledge (Psicraft) (15/+26), Knowledge (Psionics) (18/+29), Knowledge (Planar) (5/+15), Knowledge (Religion) (10/+19), Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty) (3/+12), Knowledge (Local area) (3/+12), Languages (2, Orcish, Goblinoid), Listen (4/+6 PC), Move Silently (4/+7 PC), Search (4/+13 PC), Sense Motive (3/+3 PC Sympathetic), Sleight of Hand (2/+5), Spellcraft (19/+30), Spot (7/+9) PC Observant), Survival (2_1/+1), Use Psionic Device (5/+7)
Familiar & Psicrystal (PC):
PC: Strength 1 Intelligence 10, Wisdom 10, Dexterity 14, Constitution --, Charisma 10, powers per book, has 2 personalities (Sympathetic and Observant) HP 21 AC 16, Touch 12 FF 14
Familiar: Dismissed for a year and a day
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Possessions: 
65gp spectacles (+2 circumstance bonus on will saves vs. daze)
Robe of Resistance +5 (25000 GP)
Cloak of Charisma +4 (16000 GP)
Heward’s Handy haversack (2000 GP)
Bracers of Armor +2 (4000 GP)
Psionatrix of Telepathy (8000 GP)
Ring of Protection +2 (8000 GP)
Light Crossbow +1 (1000 GP)
2 potions of Blur (600 GP)
2 potions of Mage Armor (200 GP)
2 Vials of Drow Sleep Poison (150 GP) DC 13 for 2d4 hrs
Animated book of planes with cage (+1 circumstance Bonus to planar) (100 GP)
Boccob’s Blessed Book (12500 GP)
Circlet of Intelligence +6 (36000 GP)
Gloves of Dexterity +4 (16000 GP)
Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell (11000 GP) 3/day
Wand of Eagle’s Splendor (40ch) (4320 GP)
Wand of Magic Missiles CL 5 (3150 GP) (41ch)		i
Pearl of Power 1st lvl (1000 GP)
Rope of Entanglement (21000 GP)

26084 GP, 27 sp
800 gold in fashion jewelry, Fancy Ettercap silk robes of green/gold/silver
Lt Riding horse w Saddle, small saddle bags, Saddle Blanket, Bit & Bridle, Bedroll Backpack, 1 large sack and 2 small sacks, flint and steel, 6 torches, 2 flasks of oil, 1 wk iron rations, 1 water skin, a set of common robes, 1 set of monastic robes and 1 set or traveling robes 1 pair riding boots, 1 pair of boots


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## Asmor (Sep 13, 2006)

Someone said:
			
		

> On the comparison of psion uncarnate vs Unbodied, in both cases you lose 4 manifester levels, and have very similar abilities. Unbodied have better stats, but the psion uncarnate have the very important assume equipment ability, and you´re not forced to be a telepath.




Hmm... You make a convinving argument in favor of the Unbodied. It would be somewhat novel having a D&D character who, for once, didn't have to worry about phat lewt...

I think I'm probably going to go with Uncarnate, though, instead of Unbodied. I'd RATHER do the Unbodied, but I figure things will go easier if I can point the DM to the fact that I'm only using PC classes, as opposed to playing an incorporeal monster.


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## Patlin (Sep 13, 2006)

Asmor said:
			
		

> Hmm... You make a convinving argument in favor of the Unbodied. It would be somewhat novel having a D&D character who, for once, didn't have to worry about phat lewt...




Uh oh... only a matter of time before someone suggests a Vow of Poverty Unbodied! Oh, wait, I just did.


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## KarinsDad (Sep 13, 2006)

Patlin said:
			
		

> Uh oh... only a matter of time before someone suggests a Vow of Poverty Unbodied! Oh, wait, I just did.




I put together a VoP Fighter Psion Slayer Anarchic Initiate Warforged for a campaign that we will probably start up in fall 2007. Crushingly powerful.  

Then the future DM said that he was dropping BoED.


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## Solarious (Sep 13, 2006)

A Cerebremancer is fairly potent, but not broken. It suffers from the same disease that all dual-casters suffer: no access to the next highest spell slot compared to a focused, single-class caster. At 17th level, a Cleric or Wizard will be able to cast _Gate_ to call in their local Solar, and that will single handedly end the encounter (a little difficult to imagine how it won't). The most Jadenian can muster is _Finger of Death_, which is somewhat underwhelming in comparison. Even without _Gate_ cheese, we still have the rest of the 8th and 9th level spell lists to go through: and each of those spells is probably worth more than any two of your lower power spells.

While I like the Psion Uncarnate (a lot, I really do! ), it is quite a bit underpowered. The PrC doesn't actually do anything worth the 4 manifester levels you loose until you get Uncarnate at level 10. And 4 levels is worth a lot for a main manifester. If you enter it, I recommend that you do so in the expectation that your powers will be weaker, and you should concentrate more on the infiltration aspects of a Psion Uncarnate: walking through doors in complete silence, instant disguises, and Bluff/Disguise/Sense Motive all as class skills. Don't expect your manifesting to be anything spectacular, and act more like a Bard when choosing powers and considering how you can use them (abliet, a Bard with some fairly significant blasting potential).

If you want usable PrC for Psionics, the Mind's Eye is a great (and free, the most important bit ) source (there are 3.5 updates of the most worthwhile ones), as is Hyperconcious and Untapped Potential. I strongly suggest you check out the last in particular!


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## Asmor (Sep 13, 2006)

Patlin said:
			
		

> Uh oh... only a matter of time before someone suggests a Vow of Poverty Unbodied! Oh, wait, I just did.




Oooh! I hadn't even thought of that! I've always wanted an excuse to run a character with VoP!

Now, the question is, do I go human as I originally intended, or Warforged + Adamantine Armor? Realistically, the only downside to going with the warforged is that I'd lose 1 general feat and a few exalted ones, but there aren't many exalted feats that apply to my character unless I wanna take vows out the wazoo...

Hmm, _can_ I use Adamantine Body? It seems like, since it's a part of my own body, I should be able to not have any penalties for not being proficient with heavy armor, but I don't have the book handy at the moment... (at school).


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## Asmor (Sep 13, 2006)

Ok, so I've basically decided that I'm going to be a Warforged Psion (just straight psion).

Would you guys mind checking my math on the skills and feats? Mind you, I don't need any help picking them, I just wanna make sure that I have them all allocated correctly.

Skill points (2+Int modifier per level)
1: 18 - 6
2: 18 - 6
3: 18 - 6
4: 19 - 6 (+1 Int, level 4)
5: 19 - 6
6: 19 - 6
7: 21 - 7 (+2 Int, Vow of Poverty)
8: 22 - 8 (+1 Int, level 8)
9: 22 - 8
10: 22 - 8
11: 24 - 9 (+2 Int, Vow of Poverty)
12: 25 - 9 (+1 Int, level 12)
13: 25 - 9
14: 25 - 9
15: 27 - 10 (+2 Int, Vow of Poverty)
16: 28 - 11 (+1 Int, level 16)
17: 28 - 11

Skills:
6 @ 20 ranks
1 @ 11 ranks
1 @ 10 ranks
1 @ 7 ranks
1 @ 3 ranks
1 @ 2 ranks

Feats:
Level 1: Adamantine Body, [Psionic]
Level 3: Sacred Vow
Level 5: [Psionic]
Level 6: Vow of Poverty, [Exalted]
Level 8: [Exalted]
Level 9: [Any]
Level 10: [Psionic], [Exalted]
Level 12: [Any], [Exalted]
Level 14: [Exalted]
Level 15: [Any], [Psionic]
Level 16: [Exalted]


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## KarinsDad (Sep 13, 2006)

Asmor said:
			
		

> Oooh! I hadn't even thought of that! I've always wanted an excuse to run a character with VoP!
> 
> Now, the question is, do I go human as I originally intended, or Warforged + Adamantine Armor? Realistically, the only downside to going with the warforged is that I'd lose 1 general feat and a few exalted ones, but there aren't many exalted feats that apply to my character unless I wanna take vows out the wazoo...
> 
> Hmm, _can_ I use Adamantine Body? It seems like, since it's a part of my own body, I should be able to not have any penalties for not being proficient with heavy armor, but I don't have the book handy at the moment... (at school).




There is no problem using Adamantine Body. The PC just cannot do many physical skills well due to the (equivalent to armor check) penalty.

The main issue is whether the PC wants to go (Illithid) Slayer or not.

If so, he cannot take Ranger 1 (which gives good starting skill points, Track, BAB, and +2 Reflex) as a Warforged or else he will eventually lose XP for favored class Fighter.

If he does not want to go Slayer (and be a bit of a combat machine), and just wants to go Psion or possibly Psion / some other psionic PrC, then the Adamantine Body feat works pretty good.

In fact, there really isn't anything in VoP (IIRC) which prevents the Warforged from making his body magical, he just cannot pay for it with money. For example, if an NPC rewarded him with a magical body, that would be (at least IMC) reasonable.

There is a difference between owning a magical item and making yourself magical. Some DMs might disallow this.

As for the Exalted feats, that's a wash. There are very few character concepts that can actually gain all of their VoP Exalted feats from the limited list available since so many Exalted feats are specific to certain classes or abilities.


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## Wolfwood2 (Sep 13, 2006)

Asmor said:
			
		

> Ok, so I've basically decided that I'm going to be a Warforged Psion (just straight psion).
> 
> Would you guys mind checking my math on the skills and feats? Mind you, I don't need any help picking them, I just wanna make sure that I have them all allocated correctly.




Is your GM really going to be good with Vow of Poverty?  It just seems kind of the cheese.

Why not just do a straight-foward warforgred psion?  Take Craft Psionic Arms and Armor and enhance yourself, buy some nice utility powerstones for powers you don't have, and get some Crystal Capacitors.


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## Asmor (Sep 13, 2006)

Wolfwood2 said:
			
		

> Is your GM really going to be good with Vow of Poverty?  It just seems kind of the cheese.
> 
> Why not just do a straight-foward warforgred psion?  Take Craft Psionic Arms and Armor and enhance yourself, buy some nice utility powerstones for powers you don't have, and get some Crystal Capacitors.




I really don't see how VoP is all that bad. It gives you some nice abilities, but it's not like it's more powerful than being able to have all sorts of magic items. Honestly, I'd think having the magic items would be more powerful, although the fact that I can't have the bonuses from the Vow taken away seems to balance that well enough, not that this DM ever has expressed any interest in taking things away from people...

Besides which, he allows anything from any book, official or 3rd party, as long as you can show it to him if he asks. Not a policy that I'd allow myself, but I'm not the GM. For the record, though, I probably would let someone in my own game take VoP if they wanted.


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## KarinsDad (Sep 13, 2006)

Asmor said:
			
		

> Ok, so I've basically decided that I'm going to be a Warforged Psion (just straight psion).
> 
> Would you guys mind checking my math on the skills and feats? Mind you, I don't need any help picking them, I just wanna make sure that I have them all allocated correctly.




Assuming an 18 starting Int, this looks correct (except I could not double check the Exalted feats).

PS. Insightful Reflexes is a good feat to take (+Int to Reflex saves), but with your build, the earliest you could take it is level 9. Still, +14 to Reflex saves for a PC with poor Reflex saves without a single psionic boost at level 17 is not too shabby.

And, Control Body / Solicit Psicrystal allows your psicrystral have your body attack while your mind still does powers. This makes it +9 to hit, +9 to AC, and +9 to damage, all from Int. That means that Str and Dex can be a bit of dump stats (e.g. in the 10 range). It also means that you can boost Int, Con, Wis, and Cha with your other VoP stat boosts.


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## Malum (Sep 13, 2006)

Human Cerebramancer all the way!!! 
Practiced spellcaster / practiced manifester / Expanded Knowledge *Astral Construct / Boost Construct / Extend Power / Exp Know. *Energy Missile / widen

You WILL be a walking Arsenal of Fire Power and with your trusty Construct at your side nobody dare get close to you.

Malum Fama Este (my namesake) is a lawful evil 18th Cerebramancer. Malum is a mass area destroyer and I lay to waste using Schism / Astral Construct / “enter 2 offensive powers/spells here” all competitor “big boomers”. Sure they have the higher level spells but for the big boom with endurance I take them down.

Commonly used Powers/Spells
Energy Adaption
Energy Missile
Astral Construct
Precog defense maxed out always
Inertial Armor maxed out always
Energy screen
Death Urge
Mind Thrust
Mass Missive (I liked to threaten whole communities)
Body Adjustment
Vigor
Touchsight
freedom of movement
Psychic Crush
Fly
Invisibility
Favorite tactics
1) Manefest an Astral Construct and have him mall any spellcasters or Rogues same on melee guys except I would make it a grappler and let the Rogues back stab him to death as he attempts to grapple my construct.
2) Use an extended Death Urge on a big heavy...sit back w/ popcorn and watch him try to kill him self w/ a full round attack for 2 rounds...all hits successful & instant crits.
3) Use fort save energy missile to Rogue or Monk types, reflex to spellcasters & brutes
4) Oh yay cone and line effect the crap out of an area w/ widen powers

I’m not to hip on the higher level powers or many of the spells anyways, wish etc. so this was a great fit for me as a player. Being ½ Wizard certainly allowed for a well diversified selection unlike any I have ever seen. He had it all, the movement, offense, defense & utility.

The straight classed Clerics (there was 2) are same level and both just shake there head at the damage Malum consistently causes. IMHO he was & still is broken & was responsible for the early retirement of the campaign. 34 Int, 20 Con (tomes, +6 headbands, +5 Cloak of resistance, +4 ring of protection, lesser rod of quickening 3x day & more)


Malum


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## Malum (Sep 13, 2006)

Serves me right to take so long to finish a response. Ok so to hades with the Cerebramancer you want to be an armored tank with Psionics

Vigor, energy adaption, Freedom of movement & if you have a sadistical side death urge it was actually funny at times, oh the sweet memory of our lawful evil campaign.


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## wildstarsreach (Sep 13, 2006)

Solarious said:
			
		

> A Cerebremancer is fairly potent, but not broken. It suffers from the same disease that all dual-casters suffer: no access to the next highest spell slot compared to a focused, single-class caster. At 17th level, a Cleric or Wizard will be able to cast _Gate_ to call in their local Solar, and that will single handedly end the encounter (a little difficult to imagine how it won't). The most Jadenian can muster is _Finger of Death_, which is somewhat underwhelming in comparison. Even without _Gate_ cheese, we still have the rest of the 8th and 9th level spell lists to go through: and each of those spells is probably worth more than any two of your lower power spells.




And the Straight Wizard and Cleric in our party were over shadowed in the higher levels.  From 4th to 9th levels, he was under powered.  From 10th to 14th he held his own and from 15th on thought of as the most powerful character and proved it in over 20 encounters.  So what if they have 8th and 9th level spells, Endurance was the key to his power.


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## Solarious (Sep 13, 2006)

Ah, but with a single 9th level spell, they achieve what would take 2-4 of your own spells in a single action, and with higher save DCs too. _Wail of the Banshee_, at minimum, trumps _Finger of Death_ any day, capable of slaying a maximum of 17 creatures, but more realisticly about 5-6 under optimal conditions. _Shapechange_ is unmatched for versatility, gaining more power with each and every book with a monster in it, even with _Polymorph_ errata.

Heck let's scale back to 8th level... _Maze_, with it's no save get-out-of-the-way powers, are excellent for shucking aside Clerical types, which typically don't have high Intelligence scores. _Irresistable Dance_, delivered with a _Project Image_, easily renders even the toughest of enemies useless. _Discern Location_, which is only trumped by _Metafaculty_. _Mind Blank_ for the front lines, _Dimensional Lock_ against teleport-happy opponents, _Prismatic Wall_ for an obstacle that doesn't disappear with the first _Disintegrate_ or _Greater Dispel Magic_.

I can go on, especially if we move outside of Core.


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## wildstarsreach (Sep 14, 2006)

Solarious said:
			
		

> Ah, but with a single 9th level spell, they achieve what would take 2-4 of your own spells in a single action, and with higher save DCs too. _Wail of the Banshee_, at minimum, trumps _Finger of Death_ any day, capable of slaying a maximum of 17 creatures, but more realisticly about 5-6 under optimal conditions. _Shapechange_ is unmatched for versatility, gaining more power with each and every book with a monster in it, even with _Polymorph_ errata.
> 
> Heck let's scale back to 8th level... _Maze_, with it's no save get-out-of-the-way powers, are excellent for shucking aside Clerical types, which typically don't have high Intelligence scores. _Irresistable Dance_, delivered with a _Project Image_, easily renders even the toughest of enemies useless. _Discern Location_, which is only trumped by _Metafaculty_. _Mind Blank_ for the front lines, _Dimensional Lock_ against teleport-happy opponents, _Prismatic Wall_ for an obstacle that doesn't disappear with the first _Disintegrate_ or _Greater Dispel Magic_.
> 
> I can go on, especially if we move outside of Core.




Your points are good, at 16th or 17th level he lacks that awesome 9th level abilities but I found that having essetially 2 classes with access for 7th level abilities overall gave the edge.  Go to 20th level with having chosen one of the classes to excel in and the Cerebremancer exceeds the straight Wizard or Psion.  My character went the Psion Route since we already had a straight wizard.


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## wildstarsreach (Sep 14, 2006)

Solarious said:
			
		

> Ah, but with a single 9th level spell, they achieve what would take 2-4 of your own spells in a single action, and with higher save DCs too. _Wail of the Banshee_, at minimum, trumps _Finger of Death_ any day, capable of slaying a maximum of 17 creatures, but more realisticly about 5-6 under optimal conditions. _Shapechange_ is unmatched for versatility, gaining more power with each and every book with a monster in it, even with _Polymorph_ errata.
> 
> Heck let's scale back to 8th level... _Maze_, with it's no save get-out-of-the-way powers, are excellent for shucking aside Clerical types, which typically don't have high Intelligence scores. _Irresistable Dance_, delivered with a _Project Image_, easily renders even the toughest of enemies useless. _Discern Location_, which is only trumped by _Metafaculty_. _Mind Blank_ for the front lines, _Dimensional Lock_ against teleport-happy opponents, _Prismatic Wall_ for an obstacle that doesn't disappear with the first _Disintegrate_ or _Greater Dispel Magic_.
> 
> I can go on, especially if we move outside of Core.




There is another thing, Temporal Acceleration, is gotten at 6th level whereas Time Stop is at 9th.  You might have 1, maybe 2 with an average of 3.5 rounds but you get 2 rounds per use to as many as you need with the psion abilities.


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## Asmor (Sep 14, 2006)

Well, I'm basically done with my character. In the end, I decided to go with Psion Uncarnate after all because, frankly, I don't really need that many psionic feats and the practiced manifester makes up for missing 9th level powers just fine, since an augmented first level power might as well be a 9th level power... Still need to pick out powers, but otherwise I'm good. I actually have 3 exalted feats left over that I just couldn't spend... Almost all of the exalted feats are keyed to some class ability or another, and none of them enhance psionics. :/ I could have taken word of creation or the golden ice one, but I think I'll be fine without them.

Thanks for all the suggestions, everyone!


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## Solarious (Sep 14, 2006)

First, you can edit your posts instead of double posting, wildstarsearch. Especially if you're quoting the exact same post.

Second, a dual caster has to have it's advantages, or there would be no point to playing one in the first place. Your arguement on _Temporal Acceleration_ is irrelevant, because the equivilant Psion would be also able to acomplish that with ease. We aren't arguing the benefits of manifesting against spellcasting, we're arguing straight spellcasting/manifesting against dual casting/manifesting. Besides, _Temporal Acceleration_ is 2 rounds of actions for 6th level worth of equivilant power points => spell slot comparison, 3 rounds for an 8th level slot, and a '10th' level slot for 4 rounds, which is close to _Time Stop_'s average number of rounds. Of course, _Time Stop_ can be _Extended_ with a metamagic rod (which incedentally can be used 2 more times later on down the road), while you'll need a feat and blow your psionic focus to do the same with _Temporal Acceleration_.

Of course, you're going to have to split your feats between improving manifesting and spellcasting as a Cerebemancer, while a focused class can specialize. Psionics rules simply add to the pain because you -need- Psionic Meditation in order to metapsionic effectively, and then any metapsionic feats afterwards. And any metamagics you wanted. And you still need Expanded Knowledge for the best powers in the discipline lists. Oh, and you also need Practiced Manifester/Spellcaster to reduce the pain of ML/CL loss. A straight Psion/Wizard/Sorceror/Cleric/Druid doesn't have this problem, and Wizards even picks up bonus feats (as long as they don't PrC). I note that you don't have a single metapsionic or metamagic. Not a one.

And there are plenty of sources out there that can jack up a spell until it makes even blasting spells seem like save-or-dies... or in some instances, there is no save. Against the important part of the spell anyways. To demonstrate, I shall quote someone who has more experience with effective metamagicing than I...



			
				Tleilaxu_Ghola said:
			
		

> How about Arcane Thesis (Orb of Fire) + Empower Spell + Searing Spell + Enervate Spell. That's four feats, 1 of which is very specific, but 4 of which are useful almost all spells.
> 
> With all of those metamagic feats (and arcane thesis) our spell still only occupies a 6th level slot. It deals half damage to any creature with fire immunity or any non-living creature. It deals +100% damage to any living creature with anything but fire immunity (ignores all resistance).
> 
> ...



A dual class caster/manifester like a Cerebremancer can't do something like this as reliably, or as often, because you not only loose spell slots with which to do this, you also lack the higher level slots that make it possible. Or, you burn through your spells/PPs too quickly and then function at as a lower level spellcaster/manifester for the rest of the day. Minus the feats that you invested into whichever nova tactic you perfer.

Also, as a virtual 17th level Psion, you only have a single 9th level power, whereas the straight Psion gets 6. That's a lot of high level powers to give up.

For what it's worth, I don't think Practiced Manifester, as written in the Complete Psionics, is legitimate. If you read the wording carefully, it is a clear cut-and-paste job of Practiced Spellcaster. Which means that Practiced Manifester was written without Psionics rules and it's nusances that makes it stand apart from traditional Vancian spellcasting. It's balance is questionable, and leaves questions hanging: for example, the feat says it does not increase the number of PPs you gain, then says that it increases manifester levels for all other purposes. But the bonus PPs you gain from high Intelligence is based on manifester levels... so which is it?


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## wildstarsreach (Sep 14, 2006)

Asmor said:
			
		

> Well, I'm basically done with my character. In the end, I decided to go with Psion Uncarnate after all because, frankly, I don't really need that many psionic feats and the practiced manifester makes up for missing 9th level powers just fine, since an augmented first level power might as well be a 9th level power... Still need to pick out powers, but otherwise I'm good. I actually have 3 exalted feats left over that I just couldn't spend... Almost all of the exalted feats are keyed to some class ability or another, and none of them enhance psionics. :/ I could have taken word of creation or the golden ice one, but I think I'll be fine without them.
> 
> Thanks for all the suggestions, everyone!




You need to read the Magic of Ebberon.  To have a Psiforge, you have to take the feat at first level, Psiforge body.  Taking Mithril body won't allow you to be a psion.


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## Asmor (Sep 14, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> You need to read the Magic of Ebberon.  To have a Psiforge, you have to take the feat at first level, Psiforge body.  Taking Mithril body won't allow you to be a psion.




Psiforged body seems pretty crappy, and I see no reason that a warforged couldn't be a psion in the first place, unless it's hidden in some minutiae.


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## wildstarsreach (Sep 14, 2006)

Solarious said:
			
		

> For what it's worth, I don't think Practiced Manifester, as written in the Complete Psionics, is legitimate. If you read the wording carefully, it is a clear cut-and-paste job of Practiced Spellcaster. Which means that Practiced Manifester was written without Psionics rules and it's nusances that makes it stand apart from traditional Vancian spellcasting. It's balance is questionable, and leaves questions hanging: for example, the feat says it does not increase the number of PPs you gain, then says that it increases manifester levels for all other purposes. But the bonus PPs you gain from high Intelligence is based on manifester levels... so which is it?




I gained PP's both at the actual level and not the enhanced level.  Getting to spend PP equal to your enhanced level is the biggest benefit and is worth taking for only this.  If you are a 13th level manifester, you can only use 13 PP's per use of power.  The Practiced Manifester's biggest benefit is if you are 17th level with 4 levels in something else, whatever that is, you can now spend 17 PP's at maximum with enhancements.

Good or bad I would take this character over an uncarnate or other.  When I play a psion in the Future, I plan to play him without a PrC.

This was my character for our campaign finale.  I didn't print the spell book again.

Jadenian Hallistar 20th level 
Psion Tele 7(17), Wiz 3(13), Cerebremancer 10, Level 1, 3 & 5 Kalashtar Tele replace lvl 
XP 196965
Align: NG Race: Medium male humanoid (Kalashtar)
Init: +1/3 Senses Spot: +9 Search: +15 Listen: +6
Languages: Common, Quori, Riedran, Daan, Draconic, Orcish, Goblinoid
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
AC: 21 Touch: 21 Flat-footed: 18 (20% miss chance)
HP: 111 (20 HD)  +100
Fort: +13 (+1) Ref: +13 (+1) Will: +20 (+22 vs. mind) (+1 DP Feat)
SR (2 ch used) 20 (18) Special protection vs. death, ect from scarab
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Speed: 30 ft. (45)
Melee: +9 with Staff 1d6 (5) 
Ranged: +2 Lt crossbow +15 (1d8+3) (10), RT +13 < 30’, Ranged +12 > 30’
Base Attack: +9/+4; Grapple +8
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Contingency Body Adjustment (9d12) (@ less then 0 HP) 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scrolls: 
1)  Spell Vulnerability @ 9th level 2)  Greater T-port x2 @ 18th lvl, 4xMM @ 9th lvl
3)  Scroll of Stone to Flesh @ 11th lvl, Unluck @18th lvl 4)  Spell Vulnerability @ 18th level

Psionic Powers (ML 20th, PP 355) DC 20/ (22 for telp*) + pwr/lvl + aug Pts Spent: 
9th (17) – Assimilate (DC 29, 70/105)
8th (15) – Greater Psionic Teleport (+6 people), Mind Blank, Planar Embrace
7th (13) - Energy Wave DC 27-31 #, Evade Burst, Energy Conversion
6th (11) – Disintegrate DC 26 (75/20\110/30 or 140/20\200/30), Mindswitch DC 27-32, Temporal Acceleration, Contingency
5th (9) – Psychic Crush* DC 26 (-1 hp or 30/45), Adapt Body, Mind probe* DC 26, Tower of Iron Will*, Celestial Conduit (DC 36, 70/100)
4th (7) – Dimension Door, Psychic Reformation, Schism*, Modify Memory* DC 26
3rd (5) – Body Adjust, Hostile Empathic Transfer* DC 24, Psionic Blast* DC 24, Stun Quori Spirit* DC 23-30
2nd (3) - Read Thoughts* DC 24, Levitate, Biofeedback
1st (1) – Energy Ray #, Entangling Ectoplasm, Force Screen * (+8 Defl bonus for 17 pts), Mind Link* (race 4/day free or cost), Mind Thrust* DC 22-33 (110/150), Psionic Charm* DC 23-34, Vigor (up to +100/135), Inertial Armor (+13 armor bonus for 19 pts)
#=“Cold 90/120, Fire 90/120, Electricity 70/95, Sonic 60/80” at full 20/18+2 PP
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spell Prepared: CL 17th 
Spells memorized and Bonus Spells: (3x1st, 3x2nd, 2x3rd, 2x4th, 2x5th, 2x6th, 1x7th, 1x8th, 1x9th) 
DC	1st 	2nd 	3rd 	4th 	5th 	6th 	7th 	8th 	9th 
	20/21	20/22	20/23	20/24	20/25	20/26	20/27	20/28	20/29
2x7th – Limited Wish, Delayed Blast Fireball
4x6th – Fire Spiders, Mordy’s Lucubration x2, Repulsion
5x5th – Mass Fly, Greater Blink, Wall of Stone, Cone of Cold, Teleport
6x4th – Greater Invisibility, Orb of Acid, Stoneskin, Orb of Force, Orb of Electricity, Assay of Spell Resistance
6x3rd - Bands of Steel, Dispel Magic, Spell Vuln, Resonating Bolt, Fireball, Lightning Bolt
7x2nd – Scorching Ray x2, Phantasmal Assailants, Mirror Image, Body of the Sun, Knock, Protection From Arrows
7x1st – Magic missile x4, Enlarge Person, Shield, Shocking Grasp 
4x0th – Detect Magic x3, Read Magic

Abilities: Str 10, Dex 12 (16), Con 16, Int 24 (30), Wis 12, Chr 13 (19)
Action Points: 15 () + Temp (up to 13 () a day if under prophetic favor, one at a time)
Special Qualities: +2 race/saves vs mind affecting spells, +2 race bonus on Bluff, Diplo and Intim, Immune dream and nightmare spells, Mind link 4/day, 1 extra PP/level, -1 to all str based checks, Divine boon: Comp Lang 1/day @ 20th level, Perm See Invisibility
Feats: Summon Fam, Tele Talent, Psicrystal Affinity, Point Blank Shot, Empower, Precise Shot, Scribe Scroll (15421 Craft Points), Practiced Spellcaster, Dragon Proph (13xday, dur 19 rds), Alertness, Compound Psicrystal, Proph Hero, Practiced Manifester, Psionic Meditation, Psionic Luck

Skills (210):  Auto Hypno (8) +10, Bluff (5) +11, Conc (23) +26, Dipl (16) +24, Intm (1) +9, Know (Arcana) (23) +33, Know (Dungeoneering) (11) +21, Know (History) (1)+11, Know (Psicraft) (23) +35, Know (Psionics) (23) +35, Know (Planar) (14) +25, Know (Religion) (17) +27, Know (Nobility & Royalty) (3) +13, Know (Local area) (3) +13, Lang (2, Orcish, Goblinoid), Listen (4) +6 PC, Move Silently (4) +8 PC, Search (5) +15 PC, Sense Motive (3) +3 PC (Sympathetic), Sleight of Hand (2) +6, Spellcraft (19) +31, Spot (7) +9 (PC Observant), Survival (2_1) +1, Use Psi Device (8) +10

Familiar & Psicrystal (PC):
PC: Str 1 Int 13, Wis 10, Dex 14, Con --, Chr 10, powers per book, has 2 personalities (Sympathetic and Observant) HP 55 AC 19, Touch 15 FF 15
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Possessions: 
Minor Cloak of Displacement, Heward’s Handy haversack, Psionatrix of Telepathy, Ring of Protection +3, Light Crossbow +2, Boccob’s Blessed Book, Circlet of Intelligence +6, Gloves of Dexterity +4, Metamagic Rod of Enlarge Spell, Metamagic Rod of Empower Spell, Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell, Greater Metamagic Rod of Maximize Spell, Wand of Magic Missiles CL 5 (41ch), Pearl of Power 1st lvl, Boots of Skating, Scarab of Protection, Portable Hole, White Robe of the Archmagi, Ring of Charisma +6, Ring of Three Wishes (+1 Chr, +2 Wis) (Dragotha Bonus +2 Con) (518780 total)


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## moritheil (Sep 14, 2006)

Cerebremancer is vastly better with Elan than with Human.


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## Wolfwood2 (Sep 14, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> You need to read the Magic of Ebberon.  To have a Psiforge, you have to take the feat at first level, Psiforge body.  Taking Mithril body won't allow you to be a psion.




Nonsense.  Warforged can take any class, even psionic ones, just like all the other Eberron races.  Psiforge body may make them better at it, but it's not mandatory.


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## Bacris (Sep 14, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> You need to read the Magic of Ebberon.  To have a Psiforge, you have to take the feat at first level, Psiforge body.  Taking Mithril body won't allow you to be a psion.




Base classes have no prerequisites, feats or otherwise, warforged or not, with the exception of Paragon classes, where you have to be that race...


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## wildstarsreach (Sep 14, 2006)

Bacris said:
			
		

> Base classes have no prerequisites, feats or otherwise, warforged or not, with the exception of Paragon classes, where you have to be that race...




Page 39 of Magic of Eberon. "In truth, psiforged are simply warforge who have taken the psiforged body feat (see page 51) at 1st level."

This being the case, it should be a requirement to take it at 1st level.  Now, their NPC's that they built, have are assumed to have it and the PsyWar also has mithril body.  The intent is only one body feat at 1st level.  This wording clearly implies that you have to have this feat to be a Psionic warforged or psiforged.  Otherwise you could take, mithril body and adamantine body and psiforge body and have the effects stack.


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## Bacris (Sep 14, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> Page 39 of Magic of Eberon. "In truth, psiforged are simply warforge who have taken the psiforged body feat (see page 51) at 1st level."
> 
> This being the case, it should be a requirement to take it at 1st level.  Now, their NPC's that they built, have are assumed to have it and the PsyWar also has mithril body.  The intent is only one body feat at 1st level.  This wording clearly implies that you have to have this feat to be a Psionic warforged or psiforged.  Otherwise you could take, mithril body and adamantine body and psiforge body and have the effects stack.




You are extrapolating causation based upon correlation.  No entry in the psionic classes requires any feats to take them.  In fact, taking levels in a psionic class grants you the psionic subtype - which only requires a power point reserve.  Soulknife grants Wild Talent, PsyWar, Psion and Wilder all grant actual power points.

Your logic is flawed based upon what you perceive to be implied rules that are not actually the requirements.


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## wildstarsreach (Sep 15, 2006)

Bacris said:
			
		

> You are extrapolating causation based upon correlation.  No entry in the psionic classes requires any feats to take them.  In fact, taking levels in a psionic class grants you the psionic subtype - which only requires a power point reserve.  Soulknife grants Wild Talent, PsyWar, Psion and Wilder all grant actual power points.
> 
> Your logic is flawed based upon what you perceive to be implied rules that are not actually the requirements.




Consulting the rules, legally you are correct but I seriously think you are breaking the intent.  "Just because you can do a thing doesn't mean you should do a thing."  The Magic of Eberron inplies that a warforged who is psionic should be spending for the Psiforge Body Feat.  Of course if you aren't playing Eberron I guess that goes out the window.  I'm talking about intent here but feel free to ignore.


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## Bacris (Sep 15, 2006)

Except you're therefore imposing a penalty on warforged - requiring them to spend their first level feat for a class that no other race has to spend a feat for.

I think you're misinterpreting the intention.  It may be a GOOD IDEA for a warforged to take that feat, but it shouldn't be a requirement when any other race can take a level in a psionic base class without any feat cost.


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## KarinsDad (Sep 15, 2006)

wildstarsreach said:
			
		

> Consulting the rules, legally you are correct but I seriously think you are breaking the intent.  "Just because you can do a thing doesn't mean you should do a thing."  The Magic of Eberron inplies that a warforged who is psionic should be spending for the Psiforge Body Feat.  Of course if you aren't playing Eberron I guess that goes out the window.  I'm talking about intent here but feel free to ignore.




This is totally silly. This is not the intent.

What if you are not using the Magic of Eberron book?

What if you are just using the Eberron campaign source book?

You play a Warforged Psion. Then, the DM picks up the Magic of Eberron book. Is your PC suddenly illegal?  



> In truth, psiforged are simply warforge who have taken the psiforged body feat (see page 51) at 1st level.




This states that psiforged are warforged. They are a subset.

It does not state that all psionic warforged are psiforged.


But, if your POV that a Psiforged "should be" a requirement for a Psion Warforged were the designer's intent, then the class/race combo would be rules illegal.

In order to gain a first level feat, you have to take your first level class and race first (order of character abilities page 6 PHB). If you needed the Psiforged feat in order to be a Warforged Psion, the fact remains is that you could not be a Warforged Psion in the first place.


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## Asmor (Sep 15, 2006)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> In order to gain a first level feat, you have to take your first level class and race first (order of character abilities page 6 PHB). If you needed the Psiforged feat in order to be a Warforged Psion, the fact remains is that you could not be a Warforged Psion in the first place.




More amusingly (to me, at least), you COULD do it, but you'd need to take a level of something else first, most likely fighter to avoid exp penalties. So all psionic warforged would need to take a level of fighter to "prime" themselves.  It's like how you turn the key on your car and it doesn't just start idling immediately.


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## KarinsDad (Sep 15, 2006)

Asmor said:
			
		

> More amusingly (to me, at least), you COULD do it, but you'd need to take a level of something else first, most likely fighter to avoid exp penalties. So all psionic warforged would need to take a level of fighter to "prime" themselves.  It's like how you turn the key on your car and it doesn't just start idling immediately.




Good point.


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## Asmor (Sep 15, 2006)

I just can't help but picture a warforged now with one of those pulleys like you use for a lawnmower...

Of course, it'd be right in the middle of his back, where he can't reach it.

"Little help?"


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