# (Episode II) Yoda makes me squeal with glee.



## Dr Midnight (May 6, 2002)

http://www.zutroy.org/users/moffjake/yoda_trailer.mov
Dear lord. Sweet merciful crap on a stick. If ever I squealed like a little girl at a Beatles concert... man. 

...aaaaand cue the "Lucas sucks, boycott the first week" people!


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## Psychotic Dreamer (May 6, 2002)

Personally I thought the scene looked very cool and it makes me want to see the movie even more.


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## Ristamar (May 6, 2002)

You know, I've heard about this trailer, and I've been tempted to watch it, but I won't.  I've watched too many TV spots already, and I don't want to spoil the experience of seeing it on the big screen.

Needless to say, I am EXTREMELY anxious to see Yoda lay the smack down in AotC (and have it not look ridiculous).  I'm glad it's getting such positive reactions.


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## EricNoah (May 6, 2002)

Dr Midnight said:
			
		

> *
> Dear lord. Sweet merciful crap on a stick. *




You took the words right out of my mouth.


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## KidCthulhu (May 6, 2002)

It's amazing what you can do when Frank Oz gets his hand out from up your a**.


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## Wulf Ratbane (May 6, 2002)

KidCthulhu said:
			
		

> *It's amazing what you can do when Frank Oz gets his hand out from up your a**. *




ROFL

Please tell me that's an original KidC...


Wulf


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## King_Stannis (May 6, 2002)

the yoda action figure is currently one of the hardest to get. i was lucky enough to be there when they were opening the boxes at toys r us. the figure looks great, with yoda holding a lightsaber and using the force to pick up a big rock.

i am pumped to see this movie, and i can't wait to take my 3 1/2 year old boy who loves everything starwars these days.


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## KidCthulhu (May 6, 2002)

yep.  That's all me.  Now you make sure you attribute that little gem properly.  Remind me to tell you my pithy observation about the Dark Side and muffin baskets one of these days.


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## Pielorinho (May 7, 2002)

So I'm sitting here, aimlessly surfing message boards, killing time until Angel starts, whistling "Home on the Range" because of a filk-song I read in another thread, stroking my cats who've jumped into my lap, and I read



> It's amazing what you can do when Frank Oz gets his
> hand out from up your a**.




and I burst out giggling, completely interrupting the song's rousing climax and scaring the hell out of my cats.

Thanks, KC! 
Daniel


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## Dr Midnight (May 7, 2002)

I know when he removed his hand from MINE, I found I had heat vision. I could melt steel and vaporize liquids from 300 feet away for roughly an hour and a half. 

Of course, around that time I realized with some horror what had been going on an hour and a half ago.


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## mmadsen (May 7, 2002)

So have most Star Wars fans been enjoying the ads on TV so far, because I have not been impressed at all so far.  The acting seems terribly wooden.

On the other hand, everything I've read has said that this movie is going to redeem Lucas and make up for Phantom Menace.


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## PenguinKing (May 7, 2002)

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *So have most Star Wars fans been enjoying the ads on TV so far, because I have not been impressed at all so far.  The acting seems terribly wooden.*



The acting was no great shakes in the original trilogy, either - witness Hamill's angsty melodrama in ESB. 

 - Sir Bob.


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## Droogie (May 7, 2002)

What I enjoyed the most was the crowd reaction. I wish I could go see the flik with a house like that.


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## Shard O'Glase (May 7, 2002)

The only comment I have on the TV ads is since when could r2 fly.  What kind of contrived crap are they going to come up with for why he and other astromech droids couldn't fly in 4-6.  Just because you can do it with special effects doesn't mean you should.


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## Black Omega (May 7, 2002)

Dr Midnight said:
			
		

> [B...aaaaand cue the "Lucas sucks, boycott the first week" people! [/B]



Lucas sucks!  Boycott the first week!

Actually, after ep I, I have no plans to see Ep II.  The trailers won't change my mind since I thought the trailers for Ep I were really good as well.  Sadly, the movie didn't live up to the trailers.

Now if it turns out Ep II is actually class then I'll go see it.  I just won't see it the first day like I did Ep I without knowing what I'm getting into.


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## Gizzard (May 7, 2002)

I dont know if its still available somewhere, but David Brin wrote an article for Salon when TPM came out.  He spends some time ripping on the movie from the perspective of a professional writer, but the real core of the article is his take on Yoda and the dark secret that makes him tick.  Check it out if you can find it; its doubly interesting in light of the new, more active Yoda showcased in the new trailers.


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## Liminal Syzygy (May 7, 2002)

*Brin article URL*

David Brin article is at:

http://www.salon.com/ent/movies/feature/1999/06/15/brin_side/


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## King_Stannis (May 7, 2002)

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *...The acting seems terribly wooden...*




i'm not quite sure how you can judge the acting in a two hour movie by 30 second action-spots?


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## Wolfspider (May 7, 2002)

Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> *The only comment I have on the TV ads is since when could r2 fly.  What kind of contrived crap are they going to come up with for why he and other astromech droids couldn't fly in 4-6.  Just because you can do it with special effects doesn't mean you should. *




Yeah...continuity seems to go out the window in many places....


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## Tom Cashel (May 7, 2002)

KidCthulhu: That's damn funny.

mmadsen: Sir Bob is right.  The acting has _always_ been bad in Star Wars movies.  So have the scripts.  Like this Han Solo gem from RotJ: "Threepio, you tell that slimy piece of worm-ridden filth he'll get no such pleasure from us!"  Ugh.  But so much fun!

Shard O'Glase: Looked to me like he had some kind of jetpack thing hooked up to him, and was tooling along.  _Every_ new thing they come up with is a "contrivance" of some kind...or maybe they could keep doing the same old things.  Hrrmm.

Black Omega: Yes, do that!  I want the theater to be less crowded on opening night!   Plus, I don't want to hear anyone in the line talking about how the movie "will probably suck."

**I just got my tickets for May 16th, 7:30pm.  YES!  Since I am expecting *more Star Wars*, I don't feel that I will be disappointed in the least!**


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## mmadsen (May 7, 2002)

> i'm not quite sure how you can judge the acting in a two hour movie by 30 second action-spots?




The newer ads aren't simple action spots.  Watch for the one with Anakin and Amidala; the acting's quite wooden.  And if those are the 30-second spots they want me to judge the movie by, well, my judgement isn't very high -- and I'm left wondering what's really going on, since I keep hearing great things about this movie.

By the way, I disagree that the first trilogy's acting was terrible.  Han Solo (Harrison Ford) clearly delivered his lines with great charisma, and Leia wasn't wooden either.  Chewie, 3PO, and R2 all "acted" well.  All the evil characters certainly seemed authentically evil.  I won't comment on Luke.

I also disagree that the older scripts weren't well-written and that the dialog was bad.  It was fun, and that's what it was meant to be.

At any rate, the first trilogy wasn't High Art, but it was good pulp space opera.  The Phantom Menace, on the other hand, was _not_ a well-constructed story, it introduced some terrible elements, the characterization didn't work, and many of the special effects weren't so special.


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## Viking Bastard (May 8, 2002)

KidCthulhu said:
			
		

> *It's amazing what you can do when Frank Oz gets his hand out from up your a**. *



*Gives KC a big smoochy on the cheek *

You, my fair lady, just made my day!


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## Valavien (May 8, 2002)

I am going to agree with mmadsen, I have been thinking about it lately (funny that) and I think it was only Luke that was wooden.  I remember seeing the Ep 4 in a cinema on it's re release and everyone burst out laughing when he whinged about going to pick up power converters.  So maybe his acting was good and he was supposed to be like that.  It makes sense considering how much he grows up.


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## Crothian (May 8, 2002)

I figure even a lousy Star Wars movie is worth a couple hours and 5$ of my money.  I know I've seen worse movies on opening day, and I know I'll be seeing worse movies on opening day later this year.


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## Welverin (May 8, 2002)

Dr Midnight said:
			
		

> *I know when he removed his hand from MINE, I found I had heat vision. I could melt steel and vaporize liquids from 300 feet away for roughly an hour and a half.
> 
> Of course, around that time I realized with some horror what had been going on an hour and a half ago. *




Bendis sure comes up with some weird stuff.


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## Mistwell (May 8, 2002)

Me, I've got my ticket (well, 14 of them) for 7:30pm on opening day at the Grauman's Chinese Theatre (Hollywood, California). THE best crowd for an opening day Star Wars movie there is  And I'll be standing in line all day (for the fun of it) as well!

For those of you bitching about the movie already, well, I would love to hear what you think are good sci-fi movies in the past decade (other than Matrix).


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## turtle (May 8, 2002)

terminator 2 was pretty good

does lotr count?

twelve monkeys

truman show


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## Mistwell (May 8, 2002)

turtle said:
			
		

> *terminator 2 was pretty good
> 
> does lotr count?
> 
> ...




T2 - 1991, not the last decade.
12 monkeys - Not a bad movie...
LOTR was really more fantasy than sci- fi, in my opinion.  I agree, it was fantastic.

Honestly though, there have been a few decent sci-fi movies in the last decade, but not many.  Star Wars: Attack of the Clones may not live up to everyones childhood-built high expectations, but I think if people go in just looking for an entertaining movie, and that's all, then they will get their monies worth.  You are not going to see academy-award winning acting out of Natalie Portman or Hayden Christensen, nor will this be a best-adapted screenplay nomination.  It will have cool special effects and action, however.


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## Tom Cashel (May 8, 2002)

mmadsen said:
			
		

> *
> By the way, I disagree that the first trilogy's acting was terrible.  Han Solo (Harrison Ford) clearly delivered his lines with great charisma, and Leia wasn't wooden either.  Chewie, 3PO, and R2 all "acted" well.  All the evil characters certainly seemed authentically evil.  I won't comment on Luke.
> 
> I also disagree that the older scripts weren't well-written and that the dialog was bad.  It was fun, and that's what it was meant to be.
> *




Then I suggest you watch _Return of the Jedi_ again, and really try to be impartial.  Because I think the sacred cow of your youth is getting in the way of clear vision.  The scene where Luke tells Leia that she's his sister and he has to face Vader?  Oh my Eris...it's full of "must" and "mustn't" and when Leia sobs "Hold me" to Han you just have to take a deep breath and say "It's only Star Wars..."  Really terrible in the greater scheme of things.

But do I think Star Wars is terrible?  Hell, no!  I think they're great fun.  But once again, if you are expecting anything more than "more Star Wars," you are expecting too much.

Take a deep breath and keep telling yourself, "It's only Star Wars..." 

EDIT: As for "authentic evil," even _The Phantom Menace_ has its moments.  "This is Darth Maul.  He will find your missing ship."  Ian MacDiarmid's voice gets so low and menacing....spooky.


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## trimeulose (May 8, 2002)

Ok here's my price breakup of the ticket and what I am expecting in return for it.

price of movie: - $7.00

yoda showing his jedi pimp (just above jedi master for you SW people) skills: +$1.50

Anakin Lightsaber duel: +$2.25

The original storm troopers: +$.25

Mace Windu: +$1.00

jedi kicking butt in war: $2.50

Jango Fett: $2.00

Anakin/Amidala love story: +$.50 or -$2.00

cheesy acting and scripting: -$1.00

special effects: +$2.00 or -$.50

Natalie portman in a tight white outfit.... that gets ripped: priceless






So I figure I make about $1.50 profit worth of StarWars experience. That's in addition to the tear-jerker scenes (a.k.a. Natalie Portman in revealing attire).


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## Steven McRownt (May 8, 2002)

Do you remember the Roger Rabbit movie? (actually i don't know the original title, because in italin they have the weird tradition of translating everything)

There were this cartoon characters interacting in the real world with real actors, but of course all gave a strange effect. I will not rate this -actually it was truly funny IMO- but i just want to say that  Ep II trailer gave me the same impression:

there are some real characters that are "strangers" in a world which is not "real" or "proper to them": actors are the cartoons, in a scene where everything is amazingly digital. So it comes the impression some of you had, like their acting is wooden: even Roger or Jessica Rabbit seemed wooden in that old movie!

To make the point, i think that we're all going to see something that will not respond to our expectations: we grew up with star wars, and it's so difficult for us making a comparison to something that is part of uor youth dreams... Lotr realized something we were waiting, but none of us actually had a comparison term.

At the same time, i will go to the cinema the 16th of may too (one of the few movie that goes out in Italy, Europe and America the same day, even TPM was 3 months late), and i will spend probably two hours of fun... but i will complain the old trilogy!

Steven McRownt


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## shadow (May 8, 2002)

What worries me is the over abundance of CGI and special effects.  Although I like eye-candy as much as the next person, I think Lucas has gone overboard with special effects at the expense of a good story.  Remember how Lucas was bragging that he had created the "first completely CGI character" Jar Jar Binks.  It turned out that Jar Jar was an abomination, created simply to show off the CGI capabilities.  Instead of focusing completely on special effects, Lucas needs to go back and think about what made the original trilogy great.


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## Dave G (May 8, 2002)

Artoo Deetoo could fly in Episode 1, it just ended up on the cutting room floor.   I think the CGI stuff blends more smoothly than it ever has, and it's getting better all the time.

I'm one of the rare ones who actually enjoyed Episode 1 and I don't hold the same standards for the movies that I had when I was young and seeing episodes 4-6 for the first time.

It's somewhat ludicrous to hold the standards of our youthful experiences up to the more modern story that's being told.  If it is a bad movie, time will tell, all I ask is that you either wait and see, then say it's bad, or if you're not going to see it, please stop trying to ruin the magic for all of the rest of us.  I didn't rain in your Cheerios, why is it that people so vehemently try to excrete in mine...

Or to quote a friend of mine: 
"Why are you all up in my Kool-ade when you don't even know what flavor it is?"


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## Zhure (May 8, 2002)

Steven McRownt said:
			
		

> *Do you remember the Roger Rabbit movie? (actually i don't know the original title, because in italin they have the weird tradition of translating everything)
> *




"Who Framed Roger Rabbit?"

We now return you to the original Star Wars thread.

Greg

 Don't ask me about the theory that Darth Vader is Obi-Wan Kenobi, and Old Ben Kenobi is Anakin Skywalker, because that's the path of madness, but just remember it whenever you watch Episode IV and you'll see the clues....


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## Dr Midnight (May 8, 2002)

BillyBeanbag said:
			
		

> *Or to quote a friend of mine:
> "Why are you all up in my Kool-ade when you don't even know what flavor it is?" *




Nice! 

I enjoyed Ep I, while at the same time realizing that there were several big gooey flaws. Jake Lloyd's casting is my biggest beef, second is the Jar Jar flatulence ("pee-yoosah!") two-second clip before the podraces begin. I mean, really, what the hell. 

Otherwise, I walked away from the theater having had a great time. Mmmm, lightsaber crispiness. Mace Windu. Darth Maul. Vehicle designs by Doug Chiang, costumes and other designs by Iain McCaig. Jedi! Seeing the opening fanfare logo/space text crawl in a new movie. Naboo's planet core. 

I'm in a blithering state of Yoda over here.


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## Wulf Ratbane (May 8, 2002)

BillyBeanbag said:
			
		

> *I don't hold the same standards for the movies that I had when I was young and seeing episodes 4-6 for the first time.*




LOTR lived up to my 'child-like' expectations. Spiderman did too. It's certainly _possible_ for a movie to deliver on those expectations.

Lucas can't have it both ways. He can't ask us NOT to expect the same experience we had with the original Star Wars, and then at the same time expect us to put our butts in the seats simply BECAUSE it's Star Wars. If you watch Ep1 and divorce yourself from the fact that it's *a Star Wars movie* you're left with... well, just not a very good movie. 

Basically it bothers me to have Lucas bank on the goodwill of the franchise, release a movie that doesn't deliver that  experience, and then to top it all off, BELITTLE the fandom and the goodwill we have (had?) for Star Wars. If it wasn't Star Wars-- if it wasn't _specifically_for the fact that I hold it in goodwill based on my childhood experience-- it would have no redeeming qualities at all!


And it bothers me for him to say he doesn't owe anything to the fans, and yet assume that the fans will be there for him opening weekend.

Blah blah blah... Yoda kicking ass IS pretty f'in cool, though!


Wulf


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## King_Stannis (May 8, 2002)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> *
> 
> LOTR lived up to my 'child-like' expectations. Spiderman did too. It's certainly possible for a movie to deliver on those expectations.
> 
> ...




spiderman and lotr may have lived up to your expectations, but what i think people are talking about is comparing a movie series from your childhood, a series who's shortcomings you've probably learned to overlook, against a new series that can't possibly compete with the warm and fuzzy "X" factor you (and many others) assign to the original.

as for lucas not listening to his fans, i'll say it again. HE DOES! the inclusion of jango fett and a young boba is absolutely a tip of the hat to the fans. a huge one, at that. lucas was always mystified at the public fascination with boba, a very minor character in his view. i doubt that without the fan appreciation for boba that lucas would have assigned his father such a prominent role. 

again, his problem is that if he "listened to the fans" the way the fans want him to, these new movies would be awful. since when does watching the original trilogy 35+ times make anyone an expert in filmmaking? if you listen to most of these half-wits (not referring to you Wulf), though, they'd think that it makes them more than qualified. 

i would disagree with you about your assessment of episode I. divorce yourself of the fact it's a star wars movie, and i actually feel it comes out even better than people think. it's problem was that a) it was unevenly paced at times; and b) it had to live up to unreasonable expectations. in any respect, i thought episode 1 was a good, solid and slightly flawed movie. better than 90% of the crap hollywood churns out.


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## Wulf Ratbane (May 8, 2002)

King_Stannis said:
			
		

> *as for lucas not listening to his fans, i'll say it again. HE DOES! the inclusion of jango fett and a young boba is absolutely a tip of the hat to the fans. a huge one, at that. lucas was always mystified at the public fascination with boba, a very minor character in his view. i doubt that without the fan appreciation for boba that lucas would have assigned his father such a prominent role.  *




Sort of makes you wonder about Lucas' whole "I had the whole nine movies planned out from the beginning" BS, huh? Because Jango is *INTEGRAL* to the plot. God, it hurts seeing him pull stuff out of his ass.

At any rate, there is a difference between pandering to market forces and respecting the fans. And I submit that respecting the fans is really more about respecting Star Wars. _That's_ the outrage. Jar Jar? Midichlorians? Greedo shoots first? For 20 years a great majority bought into Lucas' entire Campbellian Hero Myth, and when he fails to live up to his own hype, he turns around and tells everyone, after all, "It's just a movie!"

The fact remains that Lucas _did_ tap into something great, something mythic, and his inability to recapture that has made him bitter to his fans and his world.

We (speaking on behalf of the disgruntled fans) would really rather see him succeed, believe me. We don't take any particular delight in seeing the pitiful old man behind Great Oz's curtain.


Wulf


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## KnowTheToe (May 8, 2002)

I am tired of all of the Jack***** crying, don't see the movie opening day.  I don't like Lucas, boo hoo, get over your over judgemental selves.  It is only a movie.  If you don't like Lucas, don't see the movie.  Anyway Lucas makes the same amount of money if you see it in any of the first 14 days of the movie's opening.  If you see it after 14 days, the theater owner will make a larger percentage of the ticket sales and Lucas will make less.  So ban the first 14 days and shut up.


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## Mistwell (May 8, 2002)

I agree with CamelToe. The whining, bitching, moaning, and complaining is pathetic.  Star Wars is a series of KIDS MOVIES.  Yes, adults like it, but it's primarily made for kids.  And kids LOVED Episode 1.  Every kid I know (and it is several) really liked Anakin, and really liked Jar Jar binks, and saw no flaws with the movie. 

I really liked A New Hope when I was a kid.  When Luke complained to his dad about not being able to go out until his chores were done, I identified with him (of course, as an adult, this is one of my least favorite parts of the movie).  When he walked into that bar with all those strange aliens, I was dazzled (they are puppets, and looked quite fake in the original version of the movie).  And I thought Mark Hamil was the BEST actor (he, well, just isn't).  From the perspective of a kid, I saw no flaws with A New Hope.

So, before you bitch again about Phantom Menace, or Attack of the Clones, go see it with a child, probably male, age 5-9 or so. Then ask him what he thought of the movie (before infecting him with your adult negativity).  I bet he loves them both!


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## Ristamar (May 8, 2002)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Sort of makes you wonder about Lucas' whole "I had the whole nine movies planned out from the beginning" BS, huh? Because Jango is INTEGRAL to the plot. God, it hurts seeing him pull stuff out of his ass.
> *




Actually, the '9 movies' bit is a common misconception.  Lucas never had any intention of making 9 movies, or if he did, he never spoke of it.  I forget how exactly that rumor got started (other than the fact it originated a long time ago during the original trilogy).  I think it was some reporter or journalist jumping to conclusions in a story on Star Wars...  

Now 6 movies, on the other hand...  that he did have in mind.  As for the level of detail in which he had the prequels planned out, I can't really say (in fact, I doubt nearly anyone honestly can, save for George himself).  It is fair to say, however, that he had the basic plot in place, at the very least.


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## Tom Cashel (May 8, 2002)

*Proof that some people just won't be satisfied no matter what*



			
				Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> *
> And it bothers me for him to say he doesn't owe anything to the fans, and yet assume that the fans will be there for him opening weekend.
> *






			
				King_Stannis said:
			
		

> *
> as for lucas not listening to his fans, i'll say it again. HE DOES! the inclusion of jango fett and a young boba is absolutely a tip of the hat to the fans. a huge one, at that. lucas was always mystified at the public fascination with boba, a very minor character in his view. i doubt that without the fan appreciation for boba that lucas would have assigned his father such a prominent role.
> *






			
				Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> *
> Sort of makes you wonder about Lucas' whole "I had the whole nine movies planned out from the beginning" BS, huh? Because Jango is INTEGRAL to the plot. God, it hurts seeing him pull stuff out of his ass.
> *




So, wait...you say he doesn't listen to the fans.  That's your beef.  Then when someone shows how he DOES listen to the fans, you crap all over that.

What do you want?!  Bah, you don't know what you want.

As for Jango being "integral" to the plot:
1. how do you know that?  have you read the bootleg script?
2. wouldn't _any_ bounty hunter be just as good?

I too am sick of all the whining.  It makes me angry.  Angry...and...tired.  It's fine for you sourpusses to be all sour, and it's fine for you to sour our "squealing with glee" thread too...but you have to let me be sick and tired of it.  And I am.

Oh, I am.


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## Wulf Ratbane (May 8, 2002)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> *So, before you bitch again about Phantom Menace, or Attack of the Clones, go see it with a child, probably male, age 5-9 or so. Then ask him what he thought of the movie (before infecting him with your adult negativity).  I bet he loves them both! *




I guess by that standard, then, _Pokemon: The Movie_ was the friggin' pinnacle of film-making.


Wulf


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## EricNoah (May 8, 2002)

Zhure said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Don't ask me about the theory that Darth Vader is Obi-Wan Kenobi, and Old Ben Kenobi is Anakin Skywalker, because that's the path of madness, but just remember it whenever you watch Episode IV and you'll see the clues.... *




Oh man, how can I *not* ask now??


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## Wulf Ratbane (May 8, 2002)

*Re: Proof that some people just won't be satisfied no matter what*



			
				Tom Cashel said:
			
		

> *So, wait...you say he doesn't listen to the fans.  That's your beef.  Then when someone shows how he DOES listen to the fans, you crap all over that.
> 
> What do you want?!  Bah, you don't know what you want.
> *




I already responded above and said exactly what I want. Read it again. I want Lucas to take the movie and the audience seriously. I don't want 'lowest common denominator' films. I don't want films that are cynically and clinically designed to sell action figures to 5-9 year old boys. 



> *It's fine for you sourpusses to be all sour, and it's fine for you to sour our "squealing with glee" thread too...*




Oh, I'm squealing with glee, too. I'm certain Ep2 will be better than Ep1; it will probably be better than ROTJ. 

But I'm also tired of folks telling me not to take the movie seriously. I'm tired of folks ingoring or excusing the glaring flaws and inconsistencies in Ep1. I'm tired of folks telling me that it's improper to demand excellence of George Lucas, and I am really tired of folks insisting that Star Wars is _supposed_ to be kiddie pablum.

Wulf


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## RingXero (May 8, 2002)

The star wars theory can be found here

http://www.mendax.org/article.php?article_id=50

and his follow up/clarifications here

http://www.mendax.org/article.php?article_id=51


Can't believe you haven't seen this before, it's been everywhere


RX


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## Wulf Ratbane (May 8, 2002)

That's a hell of a theory... and a hell of a spoiler!

Now I wish I could un-read it, cause that WOULD bring back the Force...


Wulf


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## Eridanis (May 8, 2002)

*Wow...*

Damn, that would be a good story. It would also explain one nagging question for me: how could Anakin and Natalie Portman's character (brain freeze! can't remember name!) be in love enough to conceive a child (actually two), but within nine months be estranged enough that the actual birth happened outside of Vader's sphere of knowledge/influence ("you have a sister!" - said wit true surprise).

I don't think it will happen this way, but it warms my heart to think about it.


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## Black Omega (May 9, 2002)

It's an interesting theory with quite a few long long stretches.  and bits it ignores.

Darth's comment when he met Obi-wan on the Death Star:

"When I left you, I was but the student; now I am the master."

I can't imagine Obiwan saying this to the punk kid he taught.  And since apparently George's original choice for Kenobi was Toshiro Mifune...

It's a cool theory but I doubt it's anything more than that.


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## JDragon (May 9, 2002)

*My Thoughts (as if anyone cares)*

First of all,

I'm looking forward to Ep2, and have tickets for the 12:01am show on thursday morning. (same as I did for Ep1)

I like most did not care for Jar-Jar in any way.

Other than that, it was Star Wars and once again on the cutting edge of technology, much as Ep4 was.  It doesn't have the appeal, and never will as Ep4 does for me, but aisde for Jar-Jar was not a bad movie.

I belive that Ep2 will be better than Ep1 and I'm looking forward to it. (but same as Ep1, trying to keep my hopes from getting to high)


As for the theory presented above, its interesting and seems to work and I would have to agree with Wulf that "it would bring back the Force..." for me too.

Omega, regarding your comment about the student/master quote, the article addressed this, as the line says "learner", not "student". 

 Who really knows how it will go, but atleat it is a better topic than Lucas/SW sucks etc.

JDragon


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## Dr Midnight (May 9, 2002)

Black Omega said:
			
		

> *It's an interesting theory with quite a few long long stretches.  and bits it ignores.
> 
> Darth's comment when he met Obi-wan on the Death Star:
> 
> ...



*

You, uh... you missed the part where the guy does mention that. 

It's a pretty fun theory to think about, if one I pray doesn't come true. I do look forward to this supposed twist in the upcoming SW movies I keep reading rumors about...*


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## trimeulose (May 9, 2002)

*about arguments.....*

You know whats odd?? most people who love the movie say that SW is for kids (primarily ages 4-9). Most arguments also use the idea that since it is for that target group the humor must be down-played to simpler slapstick and stock joke one-liners. They also say SW is just a movie. Well put that argument aside because I have two points to concede.....


1) I know an 8 year old that has seen all the movies, knows them front to back, and has some of the original aNH action figures (his only birthday wish so everyone pitched in). We often talk about our favorite scenes in the first trilogy. We often disagree about which ones are the best, but we both agree that they are all very good. When we talk about Ep1, however, he complains to me. 

I don't encourage it because I recognize that it has its moments. His main argument isn't against Jar Jar, but Anakin. He complains that Anakin seems so rigid, so coached. I often talk about how I loved the fight scenes, he retorts with "Its too bad they killed the wrong Darth in that movie.... Anakin still sucks." I said, "But if they killed him in this movie he wouldn't be around for the last three." His repy, "it would be worth it." The boy loves SW and to hear him say that is insulting to not only to it, but to George, Mark, Harrison, Carrie...the production crew, the minor characters, heck the whole entourage of SW.

When I asked what he thought of jar jar, his answer, "He seemed to be alright at first, but it got old quick. His character had no real point to add to the movie, and I wish they would have done something more with it."

2) Like I said, I enjoyed parts of the movie. It was an inviting day when I saw it for the first time. But lets face it, it was not GLs best work of any stretch. I saw aNH when I was 11 (1994). I saw the next two in the series two years later. aNH was so good I didn't think that it could possibly have a sequel. To this Day, ESB is my all time favorite Sci/Fi movie. Don't tell me I'm trying to reclaim my glory years of child-hood. I'm living my glory days. Middle School, now those were some crappy days, SW was so good it made it worth it.

tPM is worth watching, but it will never truly be SW in my opinion. It will never inspire so many people that it will legally be called a religion in major countries around the world. It will never live throughout the ages as a great film. It will never be able to claim that the movie was done for artist purposes rather than money. tPM was no more of a movie than Pokemon, and both were just a marketing ploy to exploit kids for thier money.

I'm almost crying over here (seriously).

Don't ever tell me that this is just a movie, its not. I have evidence.

That said, I am about to die of anticipation for AotC.


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## Droogie (May 9, 2002)

Trimeulose,

Love it or hate it, TPM is Star Wars. It is Episode 1 of a 6 part series. There is nothing that can change that. In any series, whether its books, TV, or movies, there's always going to be the good episodes and the not-so-good episodes. Everyone has their favorite Bond film, and their least favorite; all Star Trek fans have arranged all the Trek movies in a hierarchy from best to worst. One week the X-files episode is great, the next week, it will suck. 

When the Star Wars films are complete, and the DVD's are sitting on everyone's shelf, everyone will look at their collection and probably agree that Ep 1 was the crappiest episode in this 6-part fairy tale. But even with the good and the bad, the series as a whole will be more than the sum of its parts. 

Just hope that the worst episode will be #1. Could you imagine if the worst episode was #6? 

Ok, fine. The script was the worst of all the SW films so far. And the acting. And Lucas has certainly proven that directing ain't like riding a bike. But after seeing episodes 1-3,  the final duel at the end of episode 6 will be the big payoff, even bigger than before. 

I'm disappointed that Ep 1 wasn't up to snuff with the others. But I don't hate the film. Nor has it soured me on Star Wars.


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## WanderingMonster (May 9, 2002)

*Crackpot theories*

While were on the subject of Crackpot Theories, here's mine:

I have a strong suspicion that Anakin Skywalker gets cloned.  Why?

Midichlorians.  Lucas said somehing to the effect that he had always planned for the Force to have biological origins (or something like that).  Something that could be passed from father to son.  Why is that key?  It's obvious: a clone would have an equally high midichlorian count and thus be just as strong in the Force.  If you have problems turning Anakin to the dark side, you might be better off cloning him and training the clone yourself.

That's my theory, and really that's as far as I took it.  Just musing on things one day after I saw Ep I.  Now with the advent of crackpot theory A claiming that Kenobi=Vader and Ben=Anakin, I can tie that to crackpot theory B (my theory) and create crackpot theory C which is:  Ben and Vader are clones.  My only support for this is the "ghost" theory.  

Why do Ben, Vader/Anakin, and Yoda only ever appear in ghost form?  Midichlorians.  Yoda was said to have had the highest midichlorian count until Anakin came along.  Perhaps high enough that he could essentially become one with the Force upon death (a conscious imprint on the Force, that is).  So if we assume that Obi-Wan doesn't have the midichlorian _cajones_ to become one with the Force upon death, it must be that Ben *does*--and only if he's a clone of someone else...

Chew on that.  But becareful.  My house of cards is fragile.


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## trimeulose (May 9, 2002)

Droogie said:
			
		

> *Trimeulose,
> 
> Love it or hate it. *




Therein lies the problem, it made me do neither. That's why this movie isn't SW. Yes, it has the name, the story line, character names, marketing, ect. but hopefully you can get at what I'm saying when I say the movie just isn't SW.

Like I said, I enjoyed the storyline and fight scenes. At least those involving Palpatine, Maul, Yoda, and of course that hottie Natalie Portman (Padme Amidala for you people who can't remember her SW character). The problem is that SW:aNH was so much to live up to, and George proved that he could live up to the name twice!!!

Then he goes and makes a simple movie with slapstick comedy, way too much CGI, poor casting on about 1/4 the characters, overt marketing, and kills the mysticism of the Force to boot.

Another fine example of someone not living up to their potential. It could have been sooooooooo much better.


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## Staffan (May 9, 2002)

Steven McRownt said:
			
		

> *even Roger or Jessica Rabbit seemed wooden in that old movie!*



I hope you excuse me for trying to channel Hong here for a moment:

There's only one thing that gets wooden around Jessica Rabbit, IYKWIM, AITYD.

(Sorry)


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## Droogie (May 10, 2002)

trimeulose said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Another fine example of someone not living up to their potential. It could have been sooooooooo much better. *




Agreed.


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## Arcane Runes Press (May 10, 2002)

trimeulose said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Another fine example of someone not living up to their potential. It could have been sooooooooo much better. *




This statement just hits me as wrong. He (GL) made a movie on a crap budget. Results = enormous box office, multiple Oscar noms, his own (mega gigantic) production company, a complete revolution in special effects and the birth of a worldwide phenomenon. He then goes on to create  2 more films in the series, both of which were enormously successful and widely acclaimed. 

Then, he helps create ANOTHER enormously successful series (Indiana Jones) and his production company branches out, spawning THE special effects company (ILM), THE standard in sound (Skywalker Sound), and a huge and influencial video game company (LucasArts).

Finally, 20 years later, he puts out another movie in the Star Wars series. It does huge box office, but fails to live up to many people's expectations. 

How does that failure, compared to the monumental successes in his life, equate to a man not living up to his potential?  

Patrick Y.


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## mmadsen (May 10, 2002)

> How does that failure, compared to the monumental successes in his life, equate to a man not living up to his potential?




The point isn't that he didn't do anything with his life; it's that he could've made a much better _Phantom Menace_.  I can't imagine considering him a failure who didn't live up to his potential -- but I can certainly say _Phantom Menace_ fell short.


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## Victim (May 10, 2002)

Interesting theories.

However, Obi won did seem very reckless in ep1.  He always seemed to be doing fancy flourish with his light saber because he liked doing dangerous things.


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## Welverin (May 10, 2002)

Dr Midnight said:
			
		

> *It's a pretty fun theory to think about, if one I pray doesn't come true. I do look forward to this supposed twist in the upcoming SW movies I keep reading rumors about... *




It was an interesting theory but there is one major flaw that wasn't mentioned, Anakin is to young to be Ben Kenobi in ANH. He's nine years old in tPM, which takes place 32 years before ANH. This means Anakin is 41 at the time of ANH and at least ten years to young to pass for Ben (and I'd say closer to twenty).


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## Mistwell (May 10, 2002)

Wow, that theory really is cool (though I don't buy it).

As for Trimeulose and his "I'm almost crying over here (seriously)" ... well, what can I say.  It really is just a movie.  Lucas said long ago, and some of which he repeated last month in Time magazine, the only intent he ever had for Star Wars was to present a few episodes in the middle of a Saturday afternoon radio show, cheap adventure movie, or pulp comic book.  That's it.  The cowboys / swashbucklers have a bar fight, rescue the princess, swings across the room, have sword fights, kill the evil guy wearing the black hat, and everyone celebrates in the end.   Later, they get trapped in the Alamo, and go on to blow up the enemies fort.  The force is thrown in because Lucas was in the midst of becoming a Buddhist at the time (and, as he says, it's because everyone where he lives, which is Marin county, is a Buddhist).  Fast races take place in the movies because Lucas loved racing where he grew up in Modesto, California (and turned to comic books, radio shows, and cheap adventure movies after his serious car accident).

There is really very little that is even slightly original in any of the Star Wars movies.  Take it out of outer space, and you can find literally dozens of (usually bad) movies and radio shows and comic books of Lucas' generation that feature the various plot points of all of the movies.

You can worship the original movies all you want.  But I doubt you will ever be satisfied.  Enjoy them for what they are, good, youthful entertainment, and you will like them all.  

Me, I love them.


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## Gizzard (May 10, 2002)

Random thought:  Heres the ratings of the various movies from the rottentomatos website (which is an average based on the published reviews of a big bunch of national critics AFAIK)

Star Wars                97%
Empire Strikes Back 97%
Return of the Jedi    79%
Phantom Menace     58%

I went to check this out after reading a messages in this thread that claimed, "you're just looking at the old Star Wars through rose-colored nostalgia glasses" or alternately, "TPM wasnt a bad movie by itself."  (For what its worth, I figured all these film critics would be a more impartial judge than us D&D geeks.  

Its an interesting excercise; if you use the sorting algorithms you can see what other recent sci-fi movies fall close to TPM scorewise (Pitch Black 54%, Jurassic Park III 50% for example) and what other movies got high ratings (X-Men 77%, Harry Potter 79%, LotR 96%). 

For the record, I'd agree with these ratings give or take 5 points.  

Back to the original subject; I sure hope the next movie is good.  If you follow the trend line though, the next one should be rated just below 40%.  That puts it in the same league as The Cell (38%).  Hmmm.   Still hoping anyway.


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## Ristamar (May 10, 2002)

Gizzard said:
			
		

> *Random thought:  Heres the ratings of the various movies from the rottentomatos website (which is an average based on the published reviews of a big bunch of national critics AFAIK)
> 
> Star Wars                97%
> Empire Strikes Back 97%
> ...





I don't know how much stock I'd put in the scores of the movies in the original trilogy.  I'm not saying I disagree with them,  but perhaps if the reviews would have been tallied when those movies first came out, I'd put more faith in them.  However, plenty of critics revised their original opinions (whether they had given a formal review or not) of the films years after they were released and became almost universally beloved by the movie-going public.  Bad mouthing a film that's essentially considered a classic would be pretty stupid.

Also, keep in mind that plenty of today's critics seemingly don't know their a** from a hole in the ground.  Let's take a look at the esteemed reviewers from EW...    first, Lisa Schwarzbaum.  This woman is supposedly one of the 'Cream of the Crop' reviewers.  She gave _Attack of the Clones_ a C+, which apparently scores as a 'rotten' review.  She also gave _Fight Club_ a D and _Crossroads_ (yes, the Britney Spears movie) a B+.  Owen Gleiberman, another 'Cream of the Crop' reviewer from EW, gave _O Brother, Where Art Thou_ an F and Deep Blue Sea (the _Jaws_ ripoff) a B-.

As I glance over these very odd scores, one thing comes to mind -- movie critics don't know jack ****.

Basically, don't worry about what some moron from the New York Times, or any other supposedly esteemed critic, has to say about the movie, and don't worry about tallying positive vs. negative reviews.  Just go watch it with an open mind, and for a few hours, be a kid again.


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## Gizzard (May 10, 2002)

> Also, keep in mind that plenty of today's critics seemingly 
> don't know their a** from a hole in the ground. 

Ah, you scared me there.  I went back to look; overall Fight Club got a 78% and the Britney movie got a 13% which are pretty sensible numbers.  The whole point is that they mass everyones opinion together and therefore looking at what one particular critic says kinda defeats the purpose. 

> However, plenty of critics revised their original opinions...

Thats a good point.  I think its overly cynical to think that most critics changed their reviews from bad to good over time, but its worth keeping in mind.  OTOH, I dont think we'll see TPM slowly climb to classic status over the next decade.


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## 333 Dave (May 10, 2002)

My theory (which, despite appearences, I've had since this thread started):

Anakin is cloned, the clone becomes Vader and kills the origonal. This keeps both what Ben and Vader says true. (you know, Vader betrayed and murdured your father, as well as he is your father). Now in the midst of the Clone Wars I think that Anakin would be the first Jedi cloned, seings how he's so f-ing strong in the Force.
Now I hope in Episode 3 they bring out Aanakin Skywalker and they have this huge fight... . And of course the clone Aanakin doesn't know that Anakin has kids... or even who Padmé is. 

Ooh new theory: Anaking was genetically engineered (by Palpatine of course, and the 'perfect student' embryo planted in Shmi where nobody would find it, Qui-Gon's stubmling on him was an accident, though in the end its better for ol' Palpy because his 'student' gets some serious training before corruption).


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