# Darkvision vs. Low-light Vision



## Tiberius (Jul 9, 2002)

I am curious how people handle the difference between darkvision and low-light vision.  In my campaign, I have ruled that as darkvision is possessed by those races who traditionally dwell in subterranian locales (such as dwarves, orcs, half-orcs. drow, svirnefblin [seriously, who came up with that name?], etc.) it only functions in absolute, nonmagical "cave" darkness, and the presence of any ambient light, even starlight, spoils it.  Low-light vision requires little interpretation.

On some other threads I have seen people referring to, for instance, half-drow recieving an "upgrade" to darkvision, as well as the general sense that darvision functions above ground.  What are people's opinion on the matter?  Thanks!

-Tiberius


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## mikebr99 (Jul 9, 2002)

From SRD:


> DARKVISION
> Darkvision is the extraordinary ability to see with no light source at all, to a range specified for the creature.
> Darkvision is black and white only.
> Darkvision does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise—invisible objects are still invisible, and
> ...




Low-light vision simply doubles the effectiveness of available light, if there isn't any light, then low-light vision doesn't help.

Dark vision helps you see (at whatever range specified) no matter what light source (or lack thereof) there is. But not through magical darkness (unless it says otherwise...  ).


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## James McMurray (Jul 9, 2002)

By the rules, the presence or absence of light does not affect darkvision. However, I have house ruled it to be slightly less effective than that.

For example, a face hidden in a hooded cloak can be seen easily with darkvision (this is used in Speaker in Dreams). I don't like that, as it means nobody can hide their face if there is a dwarf around.


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## Dr. Zoom (Jul 9, 2002)

Actually, there is no interpretation needed.  The DMG, on page 74 under Darkvision, explicitly says that the presence of light does not spoil darkvision.  A dwarf can hold a torch and see 20 feet normally in all directions, and 40 more feet with his darkvision.


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## mikebr99 (Jul 9, 2002)

James McMurray said:
			
		

> *By the rules, the presence or absence of light does not affect darkvision. However, I have house ruled it to be slightly less effective than that.
> 
> For example, a face hidden in a hooded cloak can be seen easily with darkvision (this is used in Speaker in Dreams). I don't like that, as it means nobody can hide their face if there is a dwarf around. *




Hey James.

Create a new magic item... 

Hood of darkness: this item cloaks the user's head in magical darkness- which he can see through normally- at a radius sufficient to hide his features.


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## James McMurray (Jul 9, 2002)

But  ahood that shrouds your face in magical darkness is just as conspicuous outside on sunlit day as no hood with a big mind flayer head poking out. I prefera middle ground.

Granted, my house rue isn't exactly codified, but it hasn't come into play in a little under a year, so that's ok.


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## Macbrea (Jul 9, 2002)

So, there is no moon out and your standing out there. 


Suddenly a guy walks within 20ft of you holding a torch. And you can see.  Then he walks 30ft away and your blind unable to even see the torch. 

The lighting system of DnD is screwy.


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## James McMurray (Jul 9, 2002)

Yeah, I guess its  agood thing that it is supposed to work for a game system, and not mimic reality 100%.


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## Dr. Zoom (Jul 9, 2002)

Macbrea said:
			
		

> *So, there is no moon out and your standing out there.
> 
> 
> Suddenly a guy walks within 20ft of you holding a torch. And you can see.  Then he walks 30ft away and your blind unable to even see the torch.
> ...



You can still see the torch and its light radius 30 feet away.  I am not sure what you are talking about.


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## Macbrea (Jul 9, 2002)

According to the system if you are in total darkness you cannot see. Unless you have darkvision.   A torch sheds 20ft of light then stops.  There is no range at which its considered moderate darkness about the torch or light darkness. It just ends at 20ft. 


Technically, I would fully except if they stated a torch works as follows.

Well lit  to 10ft, Light darkness 10ft to 20ft, moderate darkness 20ft to 30ft. 

That means someone holding a torch can kind of see whats going on at 30ft from them.  That actually causes the torch light to actually dissipate.  

::Shrug::


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## Dr. Zoom (Jul 9, 2002)

You can still see the torch.  If a group of adventurers is marching down a dark corridor with a torch out in front, the bad guys can see them coming long before they are 20 feet away, or even before they are 60 feet away if they have darkvision.  If you are inside the torches light radius, however, then you cannot see past the 20 foot point without another means of vision, such as darkvision, or unless the bad guys have a light source.


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## Macbrea (Jul 9, 2002)

No, actually, if you read the rules to encounter distances the light source you are not standing in doesn't allow you to see it. Your limit in total darkness is "Limit of sight".  By the rules your blind in total darkness.   As a gamemaster you can rule 0 to add house rules to allow someone to see the light source in the distance.


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## mikebr99 (Jul 9, 2002)

Macbrea said:
			
		

> *No, actually, if you read the rules to encounter distances the light source you are not standing in doesn't allow you to see it. Your limit in total darkness is "Limit of sight".  By the rules your blind in total darkness.   As a gamemaster you can rule 0 to add house rules to allow someone to see the light source in the distance. *




Heh... is this how you read them??? Is this how you play???


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## doktorstick (Jul 9, 2002)

Macbrea said:
			
		

> *No, actually, if you read the rules to encounter distances the light source you are not standing in doesn't allow you to see it. Your limit in total darkness is "Limit of sight".  By the rules your blind in total darkness.   As a gamemaster you can rule 0 to add house rules to allow someone to see the light source in the distance. *




That's nutty.  Is this in the DMG around pg. 58?  I'll have to re-read that when I get home tonight.

/ds


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## Dr. Zoom (Jul 9, 2002)

I have read them, and I don't read your inferences anywhere.  The guy holding the torch in otherwise total darkness cannot spot the guy standing in total darkness.  The guy standing in total darkness is not blind to the torch 30 feet away.  He is effectively blind to anything around him not in the light unless he has darkvision, though.  Natural total darkness does not work like a darkness spell regarding light sources 30 feet away.


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## doktorstick (Jul 9, 2002)

Macbrea said:
			
		

> *According to the system if you are in total darkness you cannot see. Unless you have darkvision.   A torch sheds 20ft of light then stops.  There is no range at which its considered moderate darkness about the torch or light darkness. It just ends at 20ft.
> *



 Yup.  Though it starts disappating immediately and becomes total darkness at 20-ft.  The rules, however, allow you to see out to 20-ft. as well-lit.  BTW, 20-ft. is very gracious.  A friend and I fashioned a torch and lit it on a moonless night.  By our guesstimation, the light didn't even go 20-ft. (well, not good enough for us to see anything).


> *
> Well lit  to 10ft, Light darkness 10ft to 20ft, moderate darkness 20ft to 30ft.
> 
> That means someone holding a torch can kind of see whats going on at 30ft from them.  That actually causes the torch light to actually dissipate.*



 If you wanted to add that complication, to model reality, you should probably have it well-lit to 5-ft., light darkness from 5-ft. to 15-ft., and heavy darkness from 15-ft. to 20-ft. with 20+-ft. being pitch black (unless there are stars, etc.)

/ds


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## Gromm (Jul 9, 2002)

Dr. Zoom said:
			
		

> *You can still see the torch.  If a group of adventurers is marching down a dark corridor with a torch out in front, the bad guys can see them coming long before they are 20 feet away, or even before they are 60 feet away if they have darkvision.  If you are inside the torches light radius, however, then you cannot see past the 20 foot point without another means of vision, such as darkvision, or unless the bad guys have a light source. *




If you're carrying a torch into an unlit area the enemies can see you several miles away in all likelyhood.

Ever been in a large dark area and had someone with a flashlight walking some distance away?  You sure as heck know where they are, but they don't have a chance of seeing you unless you're nearby.

Thats why half the time my party doesn't make a campfire at night, you can't see much, but things see you from a looong way off.

Think about driving down a road at night.  How far off can you see oncomnig cars?  And how far can you see in your headlights if say a deer or parked car with no lights is in the road?
Gigantic difference in spotting distance.


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## Macbrea (Jul 9, 2002)

I agree with people on that fact that you can see the light in the distance.  The rules however are written screwy.  Personally, I have only once been outside in an area with no ambient lighting. That was in the middle of the deserts of Saudi Arabia.  You honestly couldn't see the end of your nose.  Most place in the world you can see once your eyes adjust to the ambient light levels. 


As to how, I play it.  No, I allow my players to see light pretty far off an night.  Some of the encounter distances are written screwed up.


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